www.history-matters.com. transcriber's note: stylized "v" symbols are denoted as =v=. italicized words are denoted with _underscores_. investigation of the assassination of president john f. kennedy hearings before the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy pursuant to executive order , an executive order creating a commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of the late president john f. kennedy and the subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and s.j. res. , th congress, a concurrent resolution conferring upon the commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas _volume_ vii united states government printing office washington, d.c. u.s. government printing office, washington: for sale in complete sets by the superintendent of documents, u.s. government printing office washington, d.c., president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy chief justice earl warren, _chairman_ senator richard b. russell senator john sherman cooper representative hale boggs representative gerald r. ford mr. allen w. dulles mr. john j. mccloy j. lee rankin, _general counsel_ _assistant counsel_ francis w. h. adams joseph a. ball david w. belin william t. coleman, jr. melvin aron eisenberg burt w. griffin leon d. hubert, jr. albert e. jenner, jr. wesley j. liebeler norman redlich w. david slawson arlen specter samuel a. stern howard p. willens[a] [a] mr. willens also acted as liaison between the commission and the department of justice. _staff members_ phillip barson edward a. conroy john hart ely alfred goldberg murray j. laulicht arthur marmor richard m. mosk john j. o'brien stuart pollak alfredda scobey charles n. shaffer, jr. biographical information on the commissioners and the staff can be found in the commission's _report_. preface the testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume vii: johnny calvin brewer, julia postal, warren h. burroughs, bob k. carroll, thomas alexander hutson, c. t. walker, gerald lynn hill, j. m. poe, john gibson, james putnam, rio s. pierce, calvin bud owens, william arthur smith, george jefferson applin, jr., ray hawkins, sam guinyard, and helen markham, who were present either in the vicinity of the tippit crime scene or at the texas theatre, where lee harvey oswald was arrested; l. d. montgomery, marvin johnson, seymour weitzman, w. r. westbrook, elmer l. boyd, robert lee studebaker, c. n. dhority, richard m. sims, richard a. stovall, walter eugene potts, john p. adamcik, henry m. moore, f. m. turner, guy f. rose, w. e. perry, richard l. clark, don r. ables, daniel gutierrez lujan, c. w. brown, l. c. graves, james r. leavelle, w. e. barnes, j. b. hicks, harry d. holmes, james w. bookhout, manning c. clements, gregory lee olds, h. louis nichols, and forrest v. sorrels, who participated in or observed various aspects of the investigation into the assassination; william j. waldman and mitchell j. scibor, who testified concerning the purchase of the rifle used in the assassination; heinz w. michaelis, who testified concerning the purchase of the revolver used to kill officer tippit; j. c. cason, roy s. truly, warren caster, eddie piper, william h. shelly, and mrs. donald baker, employees at the texas school book depository building; edward shields, an attendant at a parking lot near the tsbd; thomas j. kelley and john joe howlett of the secret service and j. c. day, j. w. fritz, and marrion l. baker of the dallas police, all of whom participated in the investigation into the assassination; mary jane robertson, a secretary with the dallas police; lyndal l. shaneyfelt, a photography expert with the federal bureau of investigation; james c. cadigan, a questioned document expert with the federal bureau of investigation; earlene roberts, housekeeper in the roominghouse occupied by lee harvey oswald at the time of the assassination; senator ralph w. yarborough, who was riding in the motorcade; kenneth o'donnell, lawrence f. o'brien, and david f. powers, assistants to president kennedy, who were riding in the motorcade and testified concerning the planning of the dallas trip and the motorcade; clifton c. carter, assistant to president johnson, earle cabell, former mayor of dallas, and mrs. earle cabell, all of whom were riding in the motorcade; philip l. willis, james w. altgens, and abraham zapruder, who took pictures of the motorcade during the assassination, and linda k. willis, philip l. willis' daughter; buell wesley frazier, who drove oswald home on the evening of november , and back to work on the morning of november ; joe marshall smith, welcome eugene barnett, eddy raymond walthers, james thomas tague, emmett j. hudson, and edgar leon smith, jr., who were present at the assassination scene; perdue william lawrence, a dallas police captain who testified concerning the positioning of policemen along the motorcade route; ronald g. wittmus, a fingerprint expert with the federal bureau of investigation; robert a. frazier, cortlandt cunningham, and charles l. killion, firearms identification experts with the federal bureau of investigation; robert brock, mary brock, and harold russell, who were present in the vicinity of the tippit crime scene; and david goldstein, the owner of a firearms store in dallas. contents page preface v testimony of-- johnny calvin brewer julia postal warren h. burroughs bob k. carroll thomas alexander hutson c. t. walker gerald lynn hill j. m. poe john gibson james putnam rio s. pierce calvin bud owens william arthur smith george jefferson applin, jr ray hawkins l. d. montgomery marvin johnson seymour weitzman w. r. westbrook elmer l. boyd robert lee studebaker c. n. dhority , richard m. sims richard s. stovall walter eugene potts john p. adamcik henry m. moore f. m. turner guy f. rose w. e. perry richard l. clark don r. ables daniel gutierrez lujan c. w. brown l. c. graves james r. leavelle w. e. barnes j. b. hicks harry d. holmes , james w. bookhout manning c. clements gregory lee olds h. louis nichols forrest v. sorrels , william j. waldman mitchell j. scibor heinz w. michaelis j. c. cason roy s. truly , warren caster eddie piper william h. shelley edward shields sam guinyard j. c. day thomas j. kelley , j. w. fritz mary jane robertson lyndal l. shaneyfelt james c. cadigan earlene roberts hon. ralph w. yarborough kenneth p. o'donnell lawrence f. o'brien david f. powers clifton c. carter earle cabell mrs. earle cabell philip l. willis linda kay willis helen markham mrs. donald baker james w. altgens buell wesley frazier joe marshall smith welcome eugene barnett eddy raymond walthers james thomas tague emmett j. hudson edgar leon smith, jr abraham zapruder perdue william lawrence ronald g. wittmus robert a. frazier cortlandt cunningham charles l. killion john joe howlett marrion l. baker robert brock mary brock harold russell david goldstein exhibits introduced page baker exhibit no. barnes exhibit: a b c d e f brock (mary) exhibit a. brock (robert) exhibit a. cabell exhibit no. cadigan exhibit no.: -a dhority exhibit: a b gibson exhibit a hill exhibit: a b c holmes exhibit no.: -a -a -a hudson exhibit no. kelley exhibit a lawrence exhibit no.: leavelle exhibit a. markham exhibit no.: michaelis exhibit no.: moore exhibit no. nichols exhibit a potts exhibit: a- a- b c putnam exhibit no. robertson exhibit no.: russell exhibit a shaneyfelt exhibit no.: sims exhibit a sorrels exhibit no.: stovall exhibit: a b c d studebaker exhibit: a b c d e f g h i j tague exhibit no. turner exhibit no. waldman exhibit no.: weitzman exhibit: d e f westbrook exhibit: a b c d willis exhibit no. yarborough exhibit a hearings before the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy testimony of johnny calvin brewer the testimony of johnny calvin brewer was taken at : p.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. david w. belin, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. belin. will you stand and raise your right hand. do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. brewer. i do. mr. belin. would you please state your name for the record? mr. brewer. johnny calvin brewer. mr. belin. how old are you, mr. brewer? mr. brewer. twenty-two. mr. belin. where do you live? mr. brewer. north lancaster, apartment . mr. belin. what city and state? mr. brewer. dallas, tex. mr. belin. were you born in texas? mr. brewer. born in miami, okla. mr. belin. in oklahoma? mr. brewer. yes. mr. belin. when did you move to texas? mr. brewer. about years after i was born. my father was foreman on a construction company and we moved to texas. mr. belin. where did you go to school in texas, please, sir? mr. brewer. i went first year in lockhart. the second year we moved to houston, for a year, and we moved back to lockhart, and i went there years in lockhart. mr. belin. you graduated from high school? mr. brewer. yes. mr. belin. did you go to school after you graduated from high school? mr. brewer. i went to southwest texas state teachers college in san marcos a year, and a year in nixon clay business college in austin. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. brewer. i got married and quit school and went to work for hardy's shoe store. i--that was in september, and i got married in december. and i have been with them ever since. mr. belin. when did you go to work for hardy's shoe store? mr. brewer. in september of . mr. belin. do they assign you to any particular store? mr. brewer. i worked at the capital plaza shopping center in austin for about months, and then they transferred me to dallas and gave me a store down on jefferson. mr. belin. in austin were you just a shoe salesman? mr. brewer. i was assistant manager. mr. belin. and they transferred you to a shop on jefferson? mr. brewer. yes. mr. belin. in dallas? mr. brewer. yes. mr. belin. what is the address of that shop in dallas? mr. brewer. west jefferson. mr. belin. they made you the manager of that shop? mr. brewer. yes. mr. belin. how long have you been manager? mr. brewer. since august of . mr. belin. from august on? mr. brewer. yes. mr. belin. until the present time? mr. brewer. until the day i was made manager of the downtown store. mr. belin. today is the d of april, or the d? mr. brewer. second. mr. belin. you were made manager of the hardy's downtown shoe store? mr. brewer. yes, sir. it wasn't april fool's. i thought they were firing me, but it turned out they weren't. mr. belin. did he call you in yesterday to tell you? mr. brewer. day before yesterday and told me to get ready for an audit, that i would be going to town, if i wanted it, and i said yes. mr. belin. would this be considered a promotion? mr. brewer. a better store, more volume, and make more money. it would be considered a promotion. mr. belin. any children at all, mr. brewer? mr. brewer. no. mr. belin. i want to take you back to november , . this was the day that president kennedy was assassinated. how did you find out about the assassination, mr. brewer? mr. brewer. we were listening to a transistor radio there in the store, just listening to a regular radio program, and they broke in with the bulletin that the president had been shot. and from then, that is all there was. we listened to all of the events. mr. belin. did you hear over the radio that the president had died? mr. brewer. i heard a rumor. they said that--one of the secret service men said that the president had died, and said that was just a rumor. mr. belin. do you remember hearing anything else over the radio concerning anything that happened that afternoon? mr. brewer. well, they kept reconstructing what had happened and what they had heard, and they talked about it in general. there wasn't too much to talk about. they didn't have all the facts, and just repeated them mostly. and they said a patrolman had been shot in oak cliff. mr. belin. is oak cliff the area in which your shoe store was located? mr. brewer. yes, sir. mr. belin. all right, would you describe what happened after you heard on the radio that an officer had been shot? mr. brewer. well, there was heard a siren coming down east jefferson headed toward west jefferson. mr. belin. what is the dividing street between east and west jefferson? mr. brewer. beckley. mr. belin. how far is beckley from your store? mr. brewer. two blocks. mr. belin. two blocks to the east or to the west? mr. brewer. there is zangs to the east. the first street is zangs and the next street is beckley. mr. belin. the first street east is zangs boulevard and the next street is beckley? mr. brewer. yes, right. mr. belin. is your store located to the north or south side of jefferson? mr. brewer. on the north. mr. belin. all right. mr. brewer. i looked up and out towards the street and the police cars---- mr. belin. when you looked up, did you step out of the store at all? mr. brewer. no; i was still in the store behind the counter, and i looked up and saw the man enter the lobby. mr. belin. when you say the lobby of your store, first let me ask you to describe how is--how wide is your store, approximately? mr. brewer. about feet. mr. belin. all right, is the entrance to your store right on the sidewalk? mr. brewer. the entrance to the store is about feet from the sidewalk, front doors. mr. belin. the front doors? mr. brewer. yes; they are recessed, and then there is windows, show windows on each side. mr. belin. this would be, if we were--if we would take a look at the letter "u," or see the letter "v," your doorway would be at the bottom part of the letter and the show cases would be at the sides of the letter, is that correct? mr. brewer. yes. mr. belin. what you call this lobby, that is the area between the sidewalk and your front door, is that correct? mr. brewer. yes, sir. mr. belin. all right, you saw a man going into what you referred to as this lobby area? mr. brewer. yes; and he stood there with his back to the street. mr. belin. when did he go in now? what did you hear at the time that he stepped into this lobby area? mr. brewer. i heard the police cars coming up jefferson, and he stepped in, and the police made a u-turn and went back down east jefferson. mr. belin. where did he make the u-turn? mr. brewer. at zangs. mr. belin. do you remember the sirens going away? mr. brewer. yes; the sirens were going away. i presume back to where the officer had been shot, because it was back down that way. and when they turned and left, oswald looked over his shoulder and turned around and walked up west jefferson towards the theatre. mr. belin. let me hold you a minute. you used the word oswald. did you know who the man was at the time you saw him? mr. brewer. no. mr. belin. so at the time, you didn't know what his name was? mr. brewer. no. mr. belin. will you describe the man you saw? mr. brewer. he was a little man, about ' ", and weighed about pounds is all. mr. belin. how tall are you, by the way? mr. brewer. six three. mr. belin. so you say he was about ' "? mr. brewer. about ' ". mr. belin. and about ? mr. brewer. and had brown hair. he had a brown sports shirt on. his shirt tail was out. mr. belin. any jacket? mr. brewer. no. mr. belin. what color of trousers, do you remember? mr. brewer. i don't remember. mr. belin. light or dark? mr. brewer. i don't remember that either. mr. belin. any other clothing that you noticed? mr. brewer. he had a t-shirt underneath his shirt. mr. belin. was his shirt buttoned up all the way? mr. brewer. a couple of buttons were unbuttoned at the time. mr. belin. light complexioned or dark? mr. brewer. light complexioned. mr. belin. all right. after you saw him in the lobby of your store there, what you call a lobby area, which is really kind of an extension of the sidewalk, then you saw him leave? mr. brewer. yes, he turned and walked up toward---- mr. belin. had the police sirens subsided at the time he turned, or not? mr. brewer. no; you could still hear sirens. mr. belin. did they sound like they were coming toward you or going away? mr. brewer. they were going away at that time. mr. belin. going the other way? mr. brewer. yes. mr. belin. how could you tell? mr. brewer. they were getting further in the distance. mr. belin. then what did you see this man do? mr. brewer. he turned and walked out of the lobby and went up west jefferson toward the theatre, and i walked out the front and watched him, and he went into the theatre. mr. belin. what theatre is that? mr. brewer. texas theatre. mr. belin. why did you happen to watch this particular man? mr. brewer. he just looked funny to me. well, in the first place, i had seen him some place before. i think he had been in my store before. and when you wait on somebody, you recognize them, and he just seemed funny. his hair was sort of messed up and looked like he had been running, and he looked scared, and he looked funny. mr. belin. did you notice any of his actions when he was standing in your lobby there? mr. brewer. no; he just stood there and stared. mr. belin. he stared? mr. brewer. yes. mr. belin. was he looking at the merchandise? mr. brewer. not anything in particular. he was just standing there staring. mr. belin. well, would you state then what happened? you said that you saw him walk into the texas theatre? mr. brewer. he walked into the texas theatre and i walked up to the theatre, to the box office and asked mrs. postal if she sold a ticket to a man who was wearing a brown shirt, and she said no, she hadn't. she was listening to the radio herself. and i said that a man walked in there, and i was going to go inside and ask the usher if he had seen him. so i walked in and butch burroughs---- mr. belin. who was burroughs? mr. brewer. he was behind the counter. he operated the concession and takes tickets. he was behind the concession stand and i asked him if he had seen a man in a brown shirt of that description, matching that description, and he said he had been working behind the counter and hadn't seen anybody. and i asked him if he would come with me and show me where the exits were and we would check the exits. and he asked me why. i told him that i thought the guy looked suspicious. mr. belin. could you tell whether or not he bought a ticket? mr. brewer. no; he just turned and walked right straight in. mr. belin. when he walked right straight in, could you see the box office? mr. brewer. well, the box office is right in the middle in front of the theatre, and he turned right at the corner and went in. you could see him if he was buying a ticket, because the box office is flush with all the other buildings. mr. belin. if he had purchased a ticket, would you have seen him purchasing the ticket from where you were standing or walking? mr. brewer. i could have seen him, yes; standing in front of the box office. mr. belin. then did you know when you saw him walk in and when you walked up to julia postal that he had not bought a ticket? mr. brewer. i knew that he hadn't. mr. belin. why did you ask julia postal whether he had or hadn't? mr. brewer. i don't know. mr. belin. you just asked her? mr. brewer. just asked her whether he had bought or she had seen him go in. mr. belin. she--did she say whether she had seen him, or don't you remember? mr. brewer. she said she couldn't remember a man of that description going in. mr. belin. all right. you saw this person butch? mr. brewer. yes, sir. mr. belin. you say he is the usher, too? mr. brewer. yes. mr. belin. what did you and butch do? mr. brewer. we walked down to the front of the theatre to the stage. first we checked the front exit, and it hadn't been opened. we went to the back and it hadn't been opened. mr. belin. how could you tell that it hadn't been opened? mr. brewer. well, you open it from the inside, and you raise a bar, and a rod sticks into a hole at the bottom and then you open it. when you close it, it doesn't fall back in. you have to raise the rod again to close it from the inside. mr. belin. in other words, you have to close it from the inside? mr. brewer. you can close it from the outside, but it won't lock. mr. belin. it was locked when you got there? mr. brewer. yes. mr. belin. so you knew that no one had left? mr. brewer. yes. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. brewer. we went back up front and went in the balcony and looked around but we couldn't see anything. mr. belin. now you first looked on the bottom floor and you did not see him? mr. brewer. yes. mr. belin. how many patrons were in the theatre at that time? mr. brewer. i couldn't really tell. there weren't many, but it was dark and we couldn't see how many people were in there. there were or . i would say, at the most, upstairs and downstairs. mr. belin. together, or ? mr. brewer. yes. mr. belin. then you went upstairs. did you see him upstairs? mr. brewer. no; i couldn't see anything upstairs. mr. belin. did you hear any noises there? mr. brewer. when we first went down to the exit by the stage, we heard a seat pop up, but couldn't see anybody. and we never did see him. but we went back and upstairs and checked, and we came down and went back to the box office and told julia that we hadn't seen him. mr. belin. julia postal is the cashier? mr. brewer. yes; and she called the police, and we went--butch went to the front exit, and i went down by the stage to the back exit and stood there until the police came. mr. belin. then what happened? mr. brewer. well, just before they came, they turned the house lights on, and i looked out from the curtains and saw the man. mr. belin. where was he when you saw him? mr. brewer. he was in the center section about six or seven rows, from the back, toward the back. mr. belin. toward the back? are you sure? mr. brewer, do you know exactly which row he was in from the back? mr. brewer. no; i don't know which row. mr. belin. then what did you see? mr. brewer. he stood up and walked to the aisle to his right and then he turned around and walked back and sat down and at this time there was no place i could see. mr. belin. did he sit down in the same seat he had been in to begin with? mr. brewer. i don't remember if it was the same seat or not. mr. belin. then what happened? mr. brewer. i heard a noise outside, and i opened the door, and the alley, i guess it was filled with police cars and policemen were on the fire exits and stacked around the alley, and they grabbed me, a couple of them and held and searched me and asked me what i was doing there, and i told them that there was a guy in the theatre that i was suspicious of, and he asked me if he was still there. and i said, yes, i just seen him. and he asked me if i would point him out. and i and two or three other officers walked out on the stage and i pointed him out, and there were officers coming in from the front of the show, i guess, coming toward that way, and officers going from the back. mr. belin. then what did you see? mr. brewer. well, i saw this policeman approach oswald, and oswald stood up and i heard some hollering, i don't know exactly what he said, and this man hit patrolman mcdonald. mr. belin. you say this man hit patrolman mcdonald. did you know it was patrolman mcdonald? mr. brewer. i didn't know his name, but i had seen him quite a few times around oak cliff. but i didn't know his name. mr. belin. then you later found out this was patrolman mcdonald? mr. brewer. yes. mr. belin. did you say this man was the same man? mr. brewer. the same man that had stood in my lobby that i followed to the show. mr. belin. who hit who first? mr. brewer. oswald hit mcdonald first, and he knocked him to the seat. mr. belin. who knocked who? mr. brewer. he knocked mcdonald down. mcdonald fell against one of the seats. and then real quick he was back up. mr. belin. when you say he was---- mr. brewer. mcdonald was back up. he just knocked him down for a second and he was back up. and i jumped off the stage and was walking toward that, and i saw this gun come up and--in oswald's hand, a gun up in the air. mr. belin. did you see from where the gun came? mr. brewer. no. mr. belin. you saw the gun up in the air? mr. brewer. and somebody hollered "he's got a gun." and there were a couple of officers fighting him and taking the gun away from him, and they took the gun from him, and he was fighting, still fighting, and i heard some of the police holler, i don't know who it was, "kill the president, will you." and i saw fists flying and they were hitting him. mr. belin. was he fighting back at that time? mr. brewer. yes; he was fighting back. mr. belin. then what happened? mr. brewer. well, just in a short time they put the handcuffs on him and they took him out. mr. belin. did you see police officers hit him after they got the handcuffs on him? mr. brewer. no; i didn't see them. mr. belin. did you see any police officer hit oswald after oswald stopped fighting? mr. brewer. no. mr. belin. did you hear oswald say anything? mr. brewer. as they were taking him out, he stopped and turned around and hollered. "i am not resisting arrest," about twice. "i am not resisting arrest." and they took him on outside. mr. belin. then what happened? mr. brewer. well, then, the police officers and plainclothesmen, whoever they were, got everybody that was in the theatre and set them aside, and another officer was taking their names and addresses of all the people that were in the theatre. mr. belin. when you first saw this man, when you saw him leave what you referred to as the lobby of your shoestore building, what is it, marble or concrete? mr. brewer. terrazzo. mr. belin. terrazzo between the sidewalk and your front door? mr. brewer. yes. mr. belin. where were you when you first saw him? mr. brewer. i was behind the counter there by the hose bar. mr. belin. about how far were you from the front door? mr. brewer. ten feet. mr. belin. could you see through there to get a good view? mr. brewer. yes; the doors are solid glass. mr. belin. then you saw this man leave? mr. brewer. yes. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. brewer. i went out the front door and stood in front of the store and watched him. mr. belin. you stood in front of the door? mr. brewer. yes. mr. belin. where was he walking when you first saw him? as you got out in front of your store? mr. brewer. he was, i would say, he was in front of the furniture store. what is the name of that? mr. belin. would that be thompson's furniture store? mr. brewer. yes. mr. belin. did you know--notice how fast this man was walking? mr. brewer. just a little faster than usual. mr. belin. faster than usual walk? mr. brewer. yes. mr. belin. then about how far were you behind him? mr. brewer. well, i stood there until he walked into the theatre. i don't really know what i was thinking about. mr. belin. you stood in front of your store as he walked into the theatre? mr. brewer. yes. mr. belin. about how far is the entrance of the theatre from your store? mr. brewer. i would say or feet--yards. mr. belin. then after you saw him turn into the theatre, what did you do? mr. brewer. then i walked toward the theatre. mr. belin. at an average pace, or above average? mr. brewer. i don't know. mr. belin. you don't remember? about how long after you got to the theatre did the police come in, if you can remember? mr. brewer. i don't remember that either. mr. belin. do you remember about what time it was when the police came in? mr. brewer. no. mr. belin. is there anything else you can think of that in any way bears on this? mr. brewer. no. mr. belin. mr. brewer, i am handing you what has been marked "commission exhibit ," and ask you to state whether or not that looks like the shirt you saw the man wear? mr. brewer. that looks like the shirt, yes. mr. belin. did you notice whether the man that wore it had any holes in the elbows at all, or not? mr. brewer. i didn't notice. mr. belin. but this exhibit , looks like the shirt? mr. brewer. it looks like the shirt. mr. belin. was he wearing a jacket? i believe you answered that before. mr. brewer. no, he didn't have on a jacket. mr. belin. did you hear this man as he was in the theatre say anything other than "i am not resisting arrest."? mr. brewer. no. mr. belin. did he say anything, or could you not understand it? mr. brewer. he said something, but i couldn't understand what it was. mr. belin. when he said, "i am not resisting arrest," was this before or after they had the handcuffs on him? mr. brewer. after. mr. belin. mr. brewer, you have the right, if you want, to come back and read this deposition and sign it, or you can just waive the signing of it and let the court reporter send it directly to us in washington. do you have any preference on it? mr. brewer. no. mr. belin. do you want to waive it? mr. brewer. yes. mr. belin. we want to thank you for all of your cooperation on this. i might ask one other question. we chatted for a few minutes when we first met before we started taking this deposition, did we not? mr. brewer. yes. mr. belin. is there anything we talked there about that isn't recorded in this written testimony? mr. brewer. no. mr. belin. is there anything you said which is different insofar as stating the facts and what you have stated here on the record? mr. brewer. no. mr. belin. when we first met, what is the fact as to whether or not i just asked you to tell your story, or whether or not i tried to tell you what i thought the story was? mr. brewer. you asked me to tell the story first. mr. belin. is that what you did? mr. brewer. yes. mr. belin. anything else you can think of? mr. brewer. no. mr. belin. please thank hardy's shoe store for us for letting you take the time to be here. we thank you very much. mr. brewer. okay. testimony of julia postal the testimony of julia postal was taken at p.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. joseph a. ball, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. ball. will you stand and hold up your hand, please and be sworn? do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before this commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mrs. postal. i do. mr. ball. will you state your name, please? mrs. postal. julia postal. mr. ball. what is your address, please? mrs. postal. seevers. mr. ball. will you tell me something about yourself, where you were born and what your education was, what your occupation has been, just in general. mrs. postal. was born here in dallas and i went through all school here to my first year at adamson, and went to california and finished up out there. mr. ball. finished high school there? mrs. postal. went through years of it. mr. ball. in california? mrs. postal. in california, and then i lived there for years and came back here. i have been here ever since. mr. ball. what has been your occupation? mrs. postal. well, basically it has been theatre, cashier, and officework in connection with theatres. mr. ball. you have been to california? did you work in theatres there? mrs. postal. yes, sir; i worked at the paramount theatre, and graumans, and r.k.o. used to work for the pantages. worked for the wilshire in the office. mr. ball. how long have you been back from california, to dallas? mrs. postal. oh, me, i have been there years, or years; really, i don't remember. mr. ball. have you been working? you are now working where? mrs. postal. with the texas--really, it is united theatres, inc., at the texas theatre. mr. ball. how long have you been working there? mrs. postal. it was years last november . mr. ball. same theatre? mrs. postal. same theatre. mr. ball. what were your hours of work last fall? mrs. postal. last fall? well, let's see, i worked in the office, and then started cutting down personnel and i worked in the office until they opened the box office at : , and then come down to the box office and worked until . mr. ball. when you say worked in the box office, is that take tickets? mrs. postal. sell tickets. mr. ball. sell tickets. is there a ticket taker inside the theatre? mrs. postal. yes, sir; now, during the slack period like this with school, just an usher who works the concession and tears the tickets, because it is just straight through. mr. ball. on november , friday, november , , what time did your box office open? mrs. postal. we open daily at : , sometimes may be , minutes later or something, but that is our regular hours. mr. ball. on this day you opened on : , november ? mrs. postal. uh-huh. mr. ball. and on that day, did you have the ticket taker working around : , o'clock? mrs. postal. just the usher, which, as i said, works the concession and ticket. mr. ball. what was his name? mrs. postal. warren burroughs. call him butch. mr. ball. butch burroughs? mrs. postal. uh-huh. mr. ball. was he stationed inside the door, the entrance to the theatre? mrs. postal. yes, sir; he stays, actually, behind the concession counter, but as i said, the concession runs for the entire way as you go in the door and it runs this way so that you can see the door and steps insides, and tears tickets. mr. ball. now, did you have a radio in your ticket office? mrs. postal. uh-huh, a transistor. mr. ball. had you heard that the president had been shot? mrs. postal. yes; my daughter had called me at the office before we opened up and said it was on the tv, so i then turned the little transistor on right away, and of course it verified the--they were saying again that he had been shot. mr. ball. and did you find out that he had died here? that president kennedy was dead or---- mrs. postal. no, sir; i didn't. mr. ball. you didn't hear that? mrs. postal. i was listening to klif, and i was down in the little box office, and they kept saying that parkland hadn't issued an official report, that he had been removed from the operating table, and everyone wanted to surmise, but still hope, and it was after this that they came out and said that he was officially dead. mr. ball. but, you didn't hear that when you were in the box office, did you? mrs. postal. yes, i did. in fact, i was just about--it was just about the time all chaos broke loose. mr. ball. now, did many people go into the theatre from the time you opened at the box office until about : or so? mrs. postal. some. mr. ball. how many? can you give me an estimate? mrs. postal. i believe . mr. ball. twenty-four? mrs. postal. fourteen or twenty-four. i believe it was . everything was happening so fast. mr. ball. you had sold about that many tickets? mrs. postal. that's right. mr. ball. what was the price of admission? mrs. postal. we had three. adults cents, teenager with a card is cents, and a child is , and you have a pass ticket. mr. ball. it is cheaper that time of day than other times of day? mrs. postal. no, sir; we don't change prices. used to, but we don't. mr. ball. same price? mrs. postal. uh-huh. mr. ball. now, did you see anybody go in the theatre--well, did you see any activity on the street? mrs. postal. now, yes, sir; just about the time we opened, my employer had stayed and took the tickets because we change pictures on thursday and want to do anything, he--and about this time i heard the sirens--police was racing back and forth. mr. ball. on jefferson? mrs. postal. on jefferson boulevard, and then we made the remark, "something is about to bust," or "pop," or something to that effect, so, it was just about--some sirens were going west, and my employer got in his car. he was parked in front, to go up to see where they were going. he, perhaps i said, he passed oswald. at that time i didn't know it was oswald. had to bypass him, because as he went through this way, oswald went through this way and ducked into the theatre there. mr. ball. let me see. had you ever seen this man before then at that particular theatre? mrs. postal. not that i know of, huh-uh. mr. ball. a police car had gone by just before this? mrs. postal. yes, sir; going west. mr. ball. its siren on? mrs. postal. yes; full blast. mr. ball. and after you saw the police car go west with its siren on, why at the time the police car went west with its siren on, did you see the man that ducked? this man that you were---- mrs. postal. this man, yes; he ducked into the box office and--i don't know if you are familiar with the theatre. mr. ball. yes; i have seen the theatre. mrs. postal. you have? well, he was coming from east going west. in other words, he ducked right in. mr. ball. ducked in, what do you mean? he had come around the corner---- mrs. postal. yes; and when the sirens went by he had a panicked look on his face, and he ducked in. mr. ball. now, as the car went by, you say the man ducked in, had you seen him before the car went by, the police went by? mrs. postal. no, sir; i was looking up, as i say, when the cars passed, as you know, they make a tremendous noise, and he ducked in as my boss went that way to get in his car. mr. ball. who is your boss? mrs. postal. mr. john a. callahan. mr. ball. where did you say he was? mrs. postal. yes; i say, they bypassed each other, actually, the man ducked in this way and my employer went that-a-way, to get in his car. mr. ball. when you say "ducked in," you mean he entered the door from the street? mrs. postal. no, sir; just ducked into the other--into the outer part of it. mr. ball. i see, out in the open space? mrs. postal. yes, sir; just right around the corner. mr. ball. just right around the corner? mrs. postal. yes. mr. ball. and your boss passed him, did he? mrs. postal. yes; they went--one came one way, and one went the other way just at the same time. mr. ball. what did you see him do after he came around the corner? mrs. postal. well, i didn't actually--because i stepped out of the box office and went to the front and was facing west. i was right at the box office facing west, because i thought the police were stopping up quite a ways. well, just as i turned around then johnny brewer was standing there and he asked me if the fellow that ducked in bought a ticket, and i said, "no; by golly, he didn't," and turned around expecting to see him. mr. ball. and he had ducked in? mrs. postal. and mr. brewer said he had been ducking in at his place of business, and he had gone by me, because i was facing west, and i said, "go in and see if you can see him," it isn't too much people in there. so, he came and says, well, he didn't see him, and i says, "well, he has to be there." so i told him to go back and check--we have exit doors, behind--one behind the stage and one straight through, and asked him to check them, check the lounges because i knew he was in there. well, he just had to be. mr. ball. the last time you had seen him before he ducked in, he was just standing outside of the door, was he? mrs. postal. no, sir; he was still just in--just off of the sidewalk, and he headed for the theatre. mr. ball. were the doors of the theatre open? mrs. postal. no, sir. mr. ball. it was closed? mrs. postal. it was closed. mr. ball. and you didn't see him actually enter the theatre then? mrs. postal. no, sir. mr. ball. you hadn't seen him go by you? mrs. postal. i knew he didn't go by me, because i was facing west, and johnny, he had come up from east which meant he didn't go back that way. he had come from east going west. mr. ball. all right, now what happened after that? mrs. postal. well, i, like--i told him--asked him to check everything. mr. ball. did you ask butch burroughs if he had seen him? mrs. postal. no, sir; i told johnny this, don't tell him, because he is an excitable person, and just have him, you know, go with you and examine the exits and check real good, so, he came back and said he hadn't seen anything although, he had heard a seat pop up like somebody getting out, but there was nobody around that area, so, i told johnny about the fact that the president had been assassinated. "i don't know if this is the man they want," i said, "in there, but he is running from them for some reason," and i said "i am going to call the police, and you and butch go get on each of the exit doors and stay there." so, well, i called the police, and he wanted to know why i thought it was their man, and i said, "well, i didn't know," and he said, "well, it fits the description," and i have not--i said i hadn't heard the description. all i know is, "this man is running from them for some reason." and he wanted to know why, and told him because everytime the sirens go by he would duck and he wanted to know--well, if he fits the description is what he says. i said, "let me tell you what he looks like and you take it from there." and explained that he had on this brown sports shirt and i couldn't tell you what design it was, and medium height, ruddy looking to me, and he said, "thank you," and i called the operator and asked him to look through the little hole and see if he could see anything and told him i had called the police, and what was happening, and he wanted to know if i wanted him to cut the picture off, and i says, "no, let's wait until they get here." so, seemed like i hung up the intercom phone when here all of a sudden, police cars, policemen, plainclothesmen, i never saw so many people in my life. and they raced in, and the next thing i knew, they were carrying--well, that is when i first heard officer tippit had been shot because some officer came in the box office and used the phone, said, "i think we have got our man on both accounts." "what two accounts?" and said, "well, officer tippit's," shocked me, because officer tippit used to work part time for us years ago. i didn't know him personally. mr. ball. you mean he guarded the theatre? mrs. postal. on friday nights and saturdays, canvass the theatre, you know, and that--then they were bringing oswald out the door over there and---- mr. ball. well, now, was this before they had gone into the theatre that this officer used the phone? mrs. postal. no, sir. mr. ball. it was after? mrs. postal. there was not one man walked through this theatre. they were running. mr. ball. did the officers go in the front of the theatre? mrs. postal. yes. definitely. mr. ball. did you go in? mrs. postal. no, sir; i stayed at the box office. mr. ball. you didn't see anything that happened inside? mrs. postal. no, sir. mr. ball. did you see them bring a man out? mrs. postal. yes, sir. mr. ball. how many men had hold of him? mrs. postal. well, i--like i said, the public was getting there at that time, and the streets, sidewalk and around the streets and everything and they brought him out the double doors here [indicating]. i remember, the officer had his hands behind him with his chin back like this [indicating] because i understand he had been using some profuse (sic) language which--inside. i'd say four or five. mr. ball. was he handcuffed? mrs. postal. i don't know, sir, because the officers were all around him and from the rear there and his hands were to his back. mr. ball. they were? mrs. postal. uh-huh. mr. ball. and an officer had hold of him from the side? mrs. postal. yes, sir; this way. mr. ball. with his arm underneath his chin? mrs. postal. yes, sir. mr. ball. did he have any bruises or cuts? did oswald have any bruises or cuts on his face? mrs. postal. no. mr. ball. you didn't see any? mrs. postal. no; huh-uh. mr. ball. was he saying anything? mrs. postal. no, sir; as i said, that was my understanding, that is the reason that they had him like that, because he was screaming. mr. ball. but, you didn't hear him say anything? mrs. postal. no, sir. he couldn't possibly say anything the way they had him. mr. ball. what happened then? mrs. postal. that is when i really started shaking. i had never seen a live mob scene, that---- mr. ball. well---- mrs. postal. they said, "what is going on?" and someone said, "suspect," and they started in this way, just about that time i got out to the box office, back to the box office, and they started screaming profuse language and--"kill the so-and-so," and trying to get to him, and this and that and the officers were trying to hold on to oswald--when i say, "oswald," that man, because as i said, i didn't know who he was at that time and they was trying to hold him, because he was putting up a struggle, and then trying to keep the public off, and on the way to the car, parked right out front, one of the officers was--at that time i thought he was putting his hat on the man's face to try to keep the public from grabbing him by the hair, but i later read in the paper it was to cover his face and then he got him in the car, and all bedlam, so far as the public, broke. mr. ball. they drove away with him, did they? mrs. postal. yes, sir; that one car did; uh-huh. mr. ball. did you ever go down to the police station? mrs. postal. police station? mr. ball. yes; later the city hall or police office? mrs. postal. yes; i went down to the homicidal bureau. mr. ball. when? mrs. postal. well, let's see, that was a friday. i believe it was the thursday following. mr. ball. you didn't go down there that day? mrs. postal. no, sir. mr. ball. did you go down there the next day? mrs. postal. no, sir. mr. ball. according to your affidavit, it shows that you signed it on the th of december. would that be about right? mrs. postal. was that on thursday? mr. ball. yes; i think. mrs. postal. i can't remember. i think it was a thursday. mr. ball. that was after oswald was dead? mrs. postal. yes; well, yes; because he was killed on the th, yes; because i know i didn't go down until the following week. mr. ball. now, was it after oswald, the man brought out on--out of the theatre was taken away in the car that the officer called and said, "i'm sure we have got our man----"? mrs. postal. no, sir; that officer came out of the theatre and grabbed at the phone and made the call about simultaneously as they were bringing oswald out. mr. ball. and that was when you heard that officer tippit had been shot? mrs. postal. yes, sir. mr. ball. why didn't warren burroughs see him get in, get in there? do you have any idea? mrs. postal. we talked about that, and the concession stand is along here, and if he came in on the other end, which we summarized that is what oswald did, because the steps, immediately as you open the door there. it has been done before with kids trying to sneak in, run right on up in the balcony. mr. ball. you asked warren burroughs why he didn't see him, did you? mrs. postal. yes; we kidded him quite a bit anyway, because some people do then get by him. mr. ball. what did he say? mrs. postal. ah, he said at first that he had seen him, and i says, "now, butch, if you saw him come in--" says, "well, i saw him going out." but he didn't really see him. so, he just summarized that he ran up in the balcony, because if he had come through the foyer, butch would have seen him. mr. ball. he was arrested, though, down in the orchestra, the second row from the---- mrs. postal. third. mr. ball. third? mrs. postal. three rows down, five seats over. mr. ball. i was trying to say the third row. how could he get from the balcony down there? mrs. postal. oh, that is very easy. you can go up in the balcony and right straight down, those steps come back down, and that would bring you into it. he wouldn't have to go by butch at all. mr. ball. oh, i see. and he could get into the balcony without butch's seeing him? mrs. postal. yes; if butch was down in the other end getting something. mr. ball. and he could go in? mrs. postal. he could have gotten in. mr. ball. all right. i show you an exhibit , a shirt. does that look anything like the shirt he had on? mrs. postal. yes, it was something like this shirt. i couldn't say it is the same except it was brown and it was hanging out. mr. ball. outside his pants? mrs. postal. uh-huh. mr. ball. wasn't tucked into his pants? mrs. postal. huh-uh. mr. ball. when he went in was it tucked in his pants when he went in? mrs. postal. no, sir; because i remember he came flying around the corner, because his hair was and shirt was kind of waving. mr. ball. and his shirt was out? mrs. postal. uh-huh. mr. ball. you say---- mrs. postal. it was hanging out. mr. ball. mrs. postal, this will be written up and you can read it and sign it if you wish, or you can waive signature and we will send it on to the commission without your signature. now, how do you feel about it? do you want to do that? mrs. postal. i don't know. i mean, this is all new to me anyway. mr. ball. would you just as leave waive your signature? mrs. postal. well, i see no reason why not. mr. ball. okay. fine. then you don't have to come down and sign it. we will send it without your signature. thank you, very much for coming in. testimony of warren h. burroughs the testimony of warren h. burroughs was taken at : a.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. joseph a. ball, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. ball. do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. burroughs. yes, sir. mr. ball. state your name for the record, please. mr. burroughs. warren h. burroughs. mr. ball. where do you live, mr. burroughs? mr. burroughs. montreal. mr. ball. where were you born? mr. burroughs. dallas. mr. ball. where did you go to school? mr. burroughs. well, i'm going to private school days a week. i stopped going to public school in the ninth grade. mr. ball. you quit in the ninth grade? mr. burroughs. i stopped in the ninth grade, but i'm going to private school days a week over in highland park. mr. ball. you are now? mr. burroughs. yes; i am now. mr. ball. how old are you? mr. burroughs. twenty-two. mr. ball. what have you been doing most of your life--what kind of work have you been doing? mr. burroughs. i worked at the texas theatre and i helped my dad out as an apprentice, he is an electrician. mr. ball. were you ever in the army? mr. burroughs. no, sir--they tried to get me, but i couldn't pass--i passed the physical part, but the mental part--i didn't make enough points on the score, so the board sent me a card back and classifying me different. mr. ball. on november , , you were working at the texas theatre, were you? mr. burroughs. yes, sir. mr. ball. what kind of job did you have? mr. burroughs. during the week i worked behind the concession. on weekends i usher. mr. ball. on weekends you usher? mr. burroughs. yes, sir. mr. ball. during the week? mr. burroughs. i am behind the concession. mr. ball. during the afternoon of the week--do you take tickets too? mr. burroughs. yes--i take tickets every day. mr. ball. you do? mr. burroughs. yes. mr. ball. and, run the concession? mr. burroughs. yes. mr. ball. if anybody comes in there without a ticket, what do you do, run them off? mr. burroughs. i make it a point to stop them and ask them to go out and get a ticket. i just failed to see him when he slipped in. mr. ball. we will get to that in a minute--i want to see what you usually do if somebody comes in without a ticket. mr. burroughs. i stop them and have them go out to the box office and get an admission ticket. mr. ball. on this day of november , , what time did you go to work? mr. burroughs. i went to work at . mr. ball. you went to work that day at ? mr. burroughs. that day at o'clock--yes. mr. ball. and you later saw a struggle in the theatre between a man and some officers, didn't you? mr. burroughs. yes. mr. ball. did you see that man come in the theatre? mr. burroughs. no, sir; i didn't. mr. ball. do you have any idea what you were doing when he came in? mr. burroughs. well, i was--i had a lot of stock candy to count and put in the candy case for the coming night, and if he had came around in front of the concession out there, i would have seen him, even though i was bent down, i would have seen him, but otherwise--i think he sneaked up the stairs real fast. mr. ball. up to the balcony? mr. burroughs. yes, sir--first, i think he was up there. mr. ball. at least there was a stairway there? mr. burroughs. yes, there was two. mr. ball. is there a stairway near the entry? mr. burroughs. of the door--yes. yes, it goes straight--you come through the door and go straight--you go upstairs to the balcony. mr. ball. did anybody come in there that day? up to the time of the struggle between the man and the police--who didn't have a ticket? mr. burroughs. no, sir. mr. ball. later on the police came in your place? mr. burroughs. yes. mr. ball. they asked you if you had seen a man come in there without a ticket? mr. burroughs. yes. mr. ball. what did you tell him? mr. burroughs. i said, "i haven't seen him myself. he might have, but i didn't see him when he came in. he must have sneaked in and run on upstairs before i saw him." mr. ball. later on, did somebody point out a man in the theatre to you? mr. burroughs. no--i got information that a man--the police were cruising up and down jefferson hunting for oswald, and he ran to a shoestore and then came out and came on up to the texas, and the man came in and told me that a man fitting that description came in the show and he wanted me to help him find him, and we went and checked the exit doors, he was up in the balcony, i imagine, and then we went back out and the police caught him downstairs. mr. ball. you went to check the exit doors? mr. burroughs. yes. mr. ball. with the shoe salesman? mr. burroughs. yes. mr. ball. and were the police out at the exit doors? mr. burroughs. they came on--somehow they came in--one came in through the back and the rest of them came in through the front. mr. ball. did you see them come in through the back when you were back there? mr. burroughs. i saw one of them. mr. ball. the exit doors you are talking about were in the back or in the front? mr. burroughs. they are at the back--they have one main one going out to the alley and they have one down here by the stage going out to the parking lot, and the other two are upstairs. mr. ball. did you see any struggle or fight between this man and any police officer? mr. burroughs. no; not exactly, because i just had one door open and that was the middle door, and i couldn't see them--that was the main thing. mr. ball. where were you? mr. burroughs. i was back behind the concession. mr. ball. how do you get from the exit door in the rear of the theatre to behind the concession? mr. burroughs. well, the concession is right here [indicating] and the doors are right here, and the theatre is inside, and exit door no. is straight down this way and another one is straight down this way. mr. ball. tell me what you did after you went to the exit door with the shoe salesman; what did you do? mr. burroughs. well, he went down to this door and i stayed at this door. mr. ball. you mean at the rear of the theatre? mr. burroughs. yes--he went down to the rear of the theatre, and i stayed at this door in case he went out one of the exit doors. mr. ball. you stayed there, did you? mr. burroughs. i stayed there for about minutes and i came back out to the concession. mr. ball. down the main aisle? mr. burroughs. yes. mr. ball. were there police in there at that time? mr. burroughs. they were in there checking to see where he was. mr. ball. was there any struggle going on when you came back from the exit door to the concession? mr. burroughs. no. mr. ball. there was not? mr. burroughs. no. mr. ball. did you hear or see any trouble between this man and the police? mr. burroughs. well, i heard a struggle from outside, but i really couldn't tell. mr. ball. what did you hear? mr. burroughs. well, i couldn't hear anything on the inside, but when they brought him out, he was hollering and raising, "i demand my rights," and all that. mr. ball. what else did you hear? mr. burroughs. that's about all. mr. ball. tell me what his appearance was as they brought him out? mr. burroughs. well, he didn't seem--he seemed like he was mad at everybody. mr. ball. he was? mr. burroughs. yes. mr. ball. did he shout in a loud voice? mr. burroughs. yes; like--"i demand my rights" [witness holding up both hands above his head.] mr. ball. anything else? mr. burroughs. well, they carried him out to the car and there was a mob of people out there--more people than i have ever seen before and they put him in the car and went off. mr. ball. how many officers were with him? when you saw them take him from the theatre? mr. burroughs. i believe about three or four. mr. ball. did any of them have ahold of him? mr. burroughs. yes; they had ahold of him--they were dragging him out--i mean they had ahold of him--two on each side. mr. ball. was he walking or were they dragging him? mr. burroughs. he was walking, but he was kind of urged on out the door into the car. mr. ball. was he handcuffed? mr. burroughs. yes. mr. ball. were his hands behind him or in front of him? mr. burroughs. they were behind him. mr. ball. did you ever see a police officer strike him? mr. burroughs. no. mr. ball. did you see a police officer with his arm around the neck of this man, who arrested him? mr. burroughs. i don't believe so. mr. ball. did you ever see a police officer strike this man with the butt of a shotgun? mr. burroughs. no, sir. mr. ball. were any of the officers in the theatre armed with shotguns? mr. burroughs. no, sir; i don't believe so. mr. ball. i think that's all, mr. burroughs, and this will be written up and you can go down and sign it if you wish, or you can waive your signature right now. which do you prefer? mr. burroughs. i want to come down and sign it. mr. ball. all right. you will be notified to come down and you can read it over and sign it. thank you very much for coming down here. mr. burroughs. thank you. i hope i helped you some. mr. ball. yes; i hope you did, too. mr. burroughs. i'll see you later. mr. ball. all right. goodby. testimony of bob k. carroll the testimony of bob k. carroll was taken at a.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. joseph a. ball, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. ball. mr. carroll, would you stand up please and take the oath. do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. carroll. i do. mr. ball. will you state your name, please? mr. carroll. bob k. carroll. mr. ball. and what is your residence address? mr. carroll. redbud, duncanville, tex. mr. ball. and what is your occupation? mr. carroll. detective, dallas police department. mr. ball. how long have you been with the dallas police department? mr. carroll. ten years and three months. mr. ball. tell me something about yourself? where were you born? mr. carroll. i was born here in dallas. mr. ball. where did you go to school? mr. carroll. sunset high. mr. ball. and did you go beyond high school? mr. carroll. no, sir. mr. ball. what did you do after you got out of high school? mr. carroll. actually, i quit high school in and went to work at vitalic battery co. [spelling] v-i-t-a-l-i-c. i worked there off and on, sometimes i believe during the seasonal layoffs and i would go back when they started rehiring, and i worked there until i went on active duty with the marine corps march , , and i was released from active duty in may of , and when i returned to dallas i went to work for james a. lewis engineering co., and i worked for them for approximately months and then i worked months for the texas highway department on a survey crew, and then i joined the dallas police department. since i have been in the dallas police department, i have worked the radio and patrol divisions, the accident prevention bureau and the special service bureau. while assigned to the special service bureau, i worked with the narcotics section, the criminal intelligence section and the vice section and the administrative section. mr. ball. on november , , were you on duty? mr. carroll. yes, sir; i was. mr. ball. what were your hours of work that day? mr. carroll. we were instructed to be in the assembly room at a.m. for briefing prior to the arrival of president kennedy, and at that time i was in the assembly room at a.m. mr. ball. what job was assigned to you that day? mr. carroll. i was assigned to the block of main street. mr. ball. along the curb--did you stand along the sidewalk? mr. carroll. yes, sir; to be there, and, of course, there were uniform officers also assigned in that block, but i think they had one detective for each block. mr. ball. how far is main street from houston and main? mr. carroll. that would be roughly about three blocks--three or four blocks, maybe. mr. ball. did you hear the sound of any shots? mr. carroll. no, sir; i did not. mr. ball. when did you first hear that the president had been shot? mr. carroll. i had walked around to a tavern around the corner. i was walking down the street and i passed this person i know and i stepped in this tavern to speak to him and i heard it--they turned on the tv just as i walked in the door and i heard it on the tv set. mr. ball. what did you do then? mr. carroll. i left and went to the office, and when i got to the office i called the dispatcher and they told me to go to the scene and i left the office and went to the garage, which is two blocks from city hall and got a car and reported to the school book depository. mr. ball. about what time did you get to the school book depository? mr. carroll. let's see--approximately--let's see, the shooting occurred--it was : , i believe, it was approximately o'clock--maybe a little before, but right around o'clock, and after i got to the depository, they started organizing search details and i was assigned to search the basement. well, i went into the basement and we determined that we needed some light in the basement, so i came back upstairs to get some lights, and when i got upstairs i heard that an officer had been shot in oak cliff, and no one had any information on it and the people i talked to had no information, so i got on the phone, and i called the dispatcher's office. the dispatcher stated it was officer tippit who was shot and he was dead, and so when i come back out of the office where i had used the phone, i requested permission to go to oak cliff and permission was granted and i took k. e. lyons, and he and i left for oak cliff. mr. ball. is k. e. lyons a detective? mr. carroll. he is a patrolman assigned to the special service bureau. he doesn't work in uniform. mr. ball. he works in plain clothes? mr. carroll. he works in plain clothes, but his rank is patrolman, but we were in the block of east jefferson when the call came out on the radio that a suspect had been seen going into the texas theatre. we went immediately to the texas theatre, which is about five blocks away--i think it is in the block of west jefferson, and ourselves and the radio patrol unit were the first units to arrive at the theatre, and we pulled to the curb and parked directly in front of the entrance to the theatre, and the radio patrol car pulled into the head-in parking behind us. when lyons and i went in, a lady that was in the theatre--i don't know who she was--she said he was upstairs, and that was all the conversation i heard from her. mr. ball. do you know who the lady was? mr. carroll. no, sir; i have no idea. mr. ball. was it the girl who sells tickets? mr. carroll. i don't know, sir, whether it was or not. mr. ball. have you ever met julia postal? mr. carroll. no, sir; i never have. mr. ball. and where was the lady when you talked to her? mr. carroll. i didn't actually talk to her, sir, but when we went through the door, she just more or less--she just made a statement that he was upstairs, and as far as having any direct conversation with her, we did not. she said upstairs and we immediately went up to the balcony. all of the house lights were turned on. mr. ball. you and lyons went in the front door then? mr. carroll. yes, sir; and we went into the balcony and we had--or rather i had satisfied myself with the fact that he wasn't in the balcony. mr. ball. was there anyone in the balcony? mr. carroll. well, there were people sitting around there. mr. ball. how did you satisfy yourself that he was in the balcony? mr. carroll. well, we went in and had more or less a vague idea--well, the people that i saw up in the balcony were either real young or older people and so we started back down---- mr. ball. had you had a description of the man you were looking for? mr. carroll. they gave me a vague one on the telephone when i called and checked about the officer. mr. ball. who are "they"? mr. carroll. whoever was on duty at the dispatcher's office--i don't know who it was at that time. mr. ball. what was the description that he gave you? mr. carroll. he just gave a general height description and age--just generally. mr. ball. tell me what he said. mr. carroll. i'm trying to recall now exactly--he gave the height and i can't recall now exactly how he said it--it's been so long ago, and it was all--i know he gave roughly, just a rough description. it wasn't a detailed description at all, and i'm trying to remember now exactly how he worded it. mr. ball. can you give me the approximate age--around? mr. carroll. i believe he said he was between or or something, like that, i'm not quite sure, because everything moved real fast and everything like that. mr. ball. and you don't have anything from which you can refresh your memory, i suppose? mr. carroll. no, sir; not as to that. mr. ball. you didn't make a note of it? mr. carroll. it was just strictly a telephone conversation--no, sir. mr. ball. at any rate, when you looked at the balcony, did you see anyone who fitted this vague description that had been given you over the telephone by the dispatcher? mr. carroll. not that i thought fit it. mr. ball. what did you do then? mr. carroll. well, i started down the stairs and was going back down to the lower floor when i heard someone holler something--i believe it was "here he is," or something like that. i mean, it was a loud holler, you could tell it wasn't just someone talking, and i started running, and lyons fell--he sprained his ankle--and i started running and i came up to the right of oswald. i came up to the right and sergeant hill to the left, and then ray hawkins was in the aisle behind him--he come up in the aisle behind from the left. mr. ball. you came from the left aisle, did you, down the row of seats? mr. carroll. no, sir; facing the screen, i came from the right aisle and then come up on oswald's right. mr. ball. who came from oswald's left, facing the screen? mr. carroll. jerry hill--sgt. jerry hill. mr. ball. and then, who came from behind? mr. carroll. ray hawkins. mr. ball. where were you when you heard the sound "i've got him"? mr. carroll. just coming off of the stairs from the balcony. mr. ball. and you ran to the orchestra entrance--did you--to the aisle? mr. carroll. to the aisle from the lobby--you come downstairs into the lower lobby and the aisles lead off the lower lobby, and i come through the lobby and he was sitting rather close, i don't know exactly which row of seats it was, but it was back close to the back of the theatre. mr. ball. and how many seats in from the right aisle, as you faced the screen? mr. carroll. it was approximately--close to the center of the second bunch of seats. mr. ball. what did you see when you came into the entrance to the aisle? mr. carroll. i saw standing up at the time--oswald was standing up there at that time. several of us were converging at the same time upon him. mr. ball. where was mcdonald? mr. carroll. he was on oswald's, let me see, the first time i think i saw nick was, i believe he was on oswald's right side. mr. ball. were they struggling? mr. carroll. everyone was struggling with him--yes, sir. mr. ball. i mean, were oswald and mcdonald struggling together? mr. carroll. yes, sir; and then when i got up close enough, i saw a pistol pointing at me so i reached and grabbed the pistol and jerked the pistol away and stuck it in my belt, and then i grabbed oswald. mr. ball. who had hold of that pistol at that time? mr. carroll. i don't know, sir. i just saw the pistol pointing at me and i grabbed it and jerked it away from whoever had it and that's all, and by that time then the handcuffs were put on oswald. mr. ball. who put them on him? mr. carroll. i'm not sure who actually put the handcuffs on--i think it was ray hawkins. mr. ball. put them on from behind? mr. carroll. yes, sir. mr. ball. did---- mr. carroll. they were behind him. mr. ball. did you see anybody strike oswald with his fist? mr. carroll. no, sir; i did not. mr. ball. we had one witness testify yesterday that he saw a man with a shotgun strike oswald in the back with the butt of the gun; did you see that? mr. carroll. no, sir; i didn't see that. mr. ball. did you see anybody strike him? mr. carroll. i didn't see anybody strike him--it's possible that someone did, but i didn't see it because i was busy just trying to get him. mr. ball. did you grab some part of oswald? mr. carroll. yes, sir; i grabbed him. mr. ball. where? mr. carroll. it was below his shoulders, i think i grabbed him by his arm, trying to get one arm behind him or something. i mean, it all happened so fast--as far as me sitting down and detailing it--i believe it was his right arm. mr. ball. was oswald saying anything during this struggle? mr. carroll. not that you could understand, you know; he was making sounds like normally they will do when you are engaged in some kind of a vigorous scuffle or something like that. mr. ball. what happened then after that? mr. carroll. well, after we got the handcuffs on him--it was mcdonald and jerry hill, ray hawkins and myself, and i believe there was--i think it was hutson--we started out of the theatre and we took him out through the main lobby to our car, which was parked right in front where we had left it--where lyons and i pulled up, and we put him in our car in the back seat and i was driving and jerry hill was riding next to me and somewhere after this deal, someway or other--i don't know exactly when it was--paul bentley had joined the crowd, and he got into the car in the right-front seat and then oswald and hutson, i believe, were in the back seat, and we left there and drove to the police station. mr. ball. after oswald had been handcuffed, did he say anything? mr. carroll. yes, sir; as we were bringing him out of the theatre, he hollered that he was going to protest this police brutality. i believe those were his words--the latter part--"protest the police brutality" were his exact words. the rest of it was what he had done and that he hadn't done nothing and stuff like that. mr. ball. did he say he hadn't done anything? mr. carroll. the best i remember that was it--after we had him in the car. we were coming down to the station and he said that he hadn't done anything and he said, "i did have a pistol and i know that that's wrong, but i haven't done anything." that's the best i recall of what he said. mr. ball. did you see any marks on oswald's face? mr. carroll. yes--there was one, i believe it was on the left--right eye--i can't recall which one it was--i know he had a mark up here, somewhere up here, i believe it was over his left eye--i'm not real sure. mr. ball. where was oswald the first time you saw the mark over his eye? mr. carroll. the first time i remember was after we got him in the car. of course, i wasn't paying too much attention to the marks or anything right there, we was trying to get him subdued. mr. ball. as he came out of the theatre, was he shouting in a loud voice or speaking softly? mr. carroll. well, when we came out the door, it was rather difficult because there was quite a crowd there outside the theatre and it was pretty noisy and several people were hollering, you know--"kill him," or "let us have him, and we'll kill him." it was rather noisy, and after we come out of the theatre--i couldn't hear, you know, if he said anything i couldn't actually hear it. mr. ball. did you shut oswald up any way--did you do anything to keep his mouth shut? mr. carroll. no, sir. mr. ball. a witness testified yesterday--he said that as oswald came out of the theatre, that there were two men on each side of him and one man behind him that had his arm underneath his chin so as to tilt his head back and close his mouth; do you remember anything like that? mr. carroll. i don't remember anything like that. i was in front--when we came out of the theatre, i was directly in front of oswald, and i say "directly"--just almost right in front of him and there were two people, i know, one each side of him had him by his arms, but i did not see anyone holding his mouth or trying to keep his mouth shut. mr. ball. on the way down to the police station, did anyone in the car ask oswald if he had shot the president? mr. carroll. i don't think--i don't think they asked him if he shot the president. i don't recall asking him if he shot the president. i think most of the conversation was about tippit at that time. mr. ball. what do you remember as to that conversation about tippit at the time? mr. carroll. like--he said he hadn't done anything except, well, he said, "i had a pistol, and that's all i've done--just carry a pistol." mr. ball. did any one officer state to oswald that he had killed tippit? mr. carroll. i don't recall him just coming out openly and saying, "you killed him," or anything like that. of course, questions were being asked. i don't remember now who was asking them then, but i was driving the car and i was trying to get him from out there down here as fast as we could. mr. ball. after you took the pistol, what did you do with it? mr. carroll. the pistol? mr. ball. yes. mr. carroll. after i took the pistol, i stuck it in my belt immediately. then, after we got into the car and pulled out from the theater over there, i gave it to jerry hill, sgt. jerry hill. mr. ball. and he was sitting in the front seat? mr. carroll. in the front seat right beside me and in the middle, i think paul bentley was sitting on the right side and jerry was sitting there. mr. ball. and you went down to the police station? mr. carroll. yes, sir. mr. ball. what did you do when you got there? mr. carroll. when we got down in the basement and brought oswald up, i was in front with everyone else surrounding him and we walked directly from the car to the elevator, got on the elevator and went up to the third floor to the homicide and robbery office and took him right into the homicide and robbery office and took him into one of our interrogation rooms, where we released him to the homicide and robbery office. mr. ball. whom did you release him to? mr. carroll. i don't recall which one of the officers it was--there were several standing around there, but they would just take him and hand him to one particular officer. we just put him in the room and they more or less come in and we would back off. mr. ball. where did you go? mr. carroll. i went into the police personnel office. mr. ball. who went in there with you? mr. carroll. there was jerry hill, ray hawkins, mcdonald, hutson, bentley, lyons, and myself. oh, by the way, lyons was in the car with us also when we came from the theatre to the police department. i don't remember whether he was sitting in the front or back seat, though, but he did come down with us. lyons had sprained his ankle and paul bentley also had sprained his ankle, and shortly after we went into the police personnel office lyons and bentley left and went to parkland to have their legs checked and taken care of. mr. ball. had you looked at the pistol to see if it was loaded before you got to the personnel office? mr. carroll. yes, sir; when i gave it to jerry hill, he unloaded it. mr. ball. he unloaded it there in the car? mr. carroll. yes, sir. mr. ball. and were you able to see that? mr. carroll. wait just a minute--i know he checked the cylinder and i don't recall whether he actually unloaded it at the time or whether he waited to unload it downtown, but i believe he unloaded it there at the car. mr. ball. anyway, you know it was unloaded in your presence? mr. carroll. yes; and i saw the bullets. mr. ball. it was unloaded in your presence? mr. carroll. yes, sir. mr. ball. and how many bullets were there in the cylinder? mr. carroll. just--the cylinder was full--six. mr. ball. six bullets? mr. carroll. yes, sir. yes; i believe it was full. mr. ball. was mcdonald there at that time? mr. carroll. i don't recall whether he was right there at that moment or not. mr. ball. did you examine these bullets? mr. carroll. i looked at them, yes, sir. mr. ball. did you see anything unusual about any one of them? mr. carroll. not--just at a glance. no, sir; they just looked like bullets. mr. ball. did you examine them more carefully at a later time? mr. carroll. someone made mention that one of the caps, you know, had a small indent on it, and i looked at it and i could see what looked to me like a hammer might have fallen on it. mr. ball. on the firing pin? mr. carroll. yes--the firing pin looked like where the firing pin might have fallen on the cap. mr. ball. it looked like the firing pin had fallen on the cap? mr. carroll. that's right. mr. ball. and did you see that with your naked eye or did you need a glass? mr. carroll. well, when i looked at it, it looked to me like it was just a real light indent. mr. ball. that was without a glass? mr. carroll. yes. mr. ball. did you look at it as you were there in the personnel department? mr. carroll. yes, sir. mr. ball. was mcdonald there that day? mr. carroll. i'm sure he was--i don't actually recall him sitting there. he was there most of the time. mr. ball. did you see mcdonald make a mark on the gun? mr. carroll. yes; i saw him make a mark. mr. ball. when was this done? mr. carroll. it was up in the personnel police office. mr. ball. at this meeting that you were just describing? mr. carroll. yes; when we were all in there together. mr. ball. and tell me briefly who was present when you saw mcdonald make the mark on the gun? mr. carroll. well, let's see--there was myself, mack, i think ray hawkins was there, and i believe hutson was there, and i believe bentley and lyons had already gone out to have their feet checked, and i don't recall whether captain westbrook was in there at the time or not. there were so many people--i would have to kind of explain that--i know it sounds vague, but there were so many people in and out of there and there were about no less than anywhere from half a dozen to a dozen newspaper reporters in and out and they were bringing in mikes and it was just a big mess of confusion. you couldn't just sit down and detail this thing and say this man was at this particular spot at this time. it was so jumbled up there. mr. ball. whom did you give the gun to finally? mr. carroll. after i gave it to--jerry hill--that was the last time i had possession of it--possession of the gun. mr. ball. and did you know who took possession of the bullets? mr. carroll. i don't recall, sir. i don't recall even seeing the gun or the bullets turned over to anyone by hill. mr. ball. but you know in the personnel department after you had delivered oswald to the homicide squadron, you saw the gun and six bullets? mr. carroll. yes sir. mr. ball. with this group of officers? mr. carroll. yes, sir. mr. ball. and you examined them? mr. carroll. yes. mr. ball. i think that's all. mr. carroll, this will be written up by the shorthand reporter and you have the privilege of looking it over and making any corrections and signing it, if you wish, or you can waive signature and we will send it on to the commission. mr. carroll. yes, sir; all right, sir. mr. ball. do you want to waive signature? mr. carroll. no, sir; i will sign it. mr. ball. all right, then, if you want to sign it, we'll get in touch with you and tell you what time it will be ready and you can come down and look it over. mr. carroll. all right. mr. ball. all right, fine. thank you very much for coming in. mr. carroll. all right, thank you. testimony of bob k. carroll resumed the testimony of bob k. carroll was taken at a.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. david w. belin, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. belin. will you rise and be sworn, please. do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. carroll. i do, sir. mr. belin. your name is? mr. carroll. bob k. carroll. mr. belin. you previously had your deposition taken here in dallas by the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy, have you not? mr. carroll. yes, sir. mr. belin. did mr. ball take that? mr. carroll. it was mr. ball; yes, sir. mr. belin. about what day was that? mr. carroll. it was on a friday, last, i believe. i don't know what day that would be. mr. belin. well, today is the following thursday. at that time we didn't have some of the exhibits here, officer carroll, and since then they have come in. i now want to hand you one of the exhibits which has been marked as commission exhibit and ask you to state what that is? mr. carroll. yes, sir. it is a . caliber revolver with a blue steel " barrel with wooden handle. mr. belin. have you ever seen this before? mr. carroll. yes; i have. mr. belin. where did you first see it? mr. carroll. i first saw it in the texas theatre on november , . mr. belin. would you just tell us about this weapon, when you first saw it? mr. carroll. the first time i saw the weapon, it was pointed in my direction, and i reached and grabbed it and stuck it into my belt. mr. belin. what did you happen to be doing at the time? mr. carroll. at the time, i was assisting in the arrest of lee harvey oswald. mr. belin. do you know whose hand was on the gun when you saw it pointed in your direction? mr. carroll. no; i do not. mr. belin. you just jumped and grabbed it? mr. carroll. i jumped and grabbed the gun; yes, sir. mr. belin. then what did you do with it? mr. carroll. stuck it in my belt. mr. belin. and then? mr. carroll. after leaving the theatre and getting into the car, i released the pistol to sgt. jerry hill. mr. belin. sgt. g. l. hill? mr. carroll. yes, sir. mr. belin. who drove the car down to the station? mr. carroll. i drove the car. mr. belin. did you give it to him before you started up the car, or after you started up the car, if you remember? mr. carroll. after. mr. belin. how far had you driven when you gave it to him? mr. carroll. i don't recall exactly how far i had driven. mr. belin. did you put any identification mark at all on this weapon? mr. carroll. yes, sir; i did. the initials b. c., right above the screw on the inside of the butt of the pistol. mr. belin. that is about an inch or so from the bottom of the pistol? mr. carroll. approximately an inch from the bottom of the butt of the pistol. mr. belin. as you hold the pistol pointing, that metal strip is pointing up also, is that correct? mr. carroll. that's correct. mr. belin. where did you put the initials? mr. carroll. where was i, or where did i put the initials on the pistol? mr. belin. where were you? mr. carroll. i was in the personnel office of the city of dallas police department. mr. belin. with sergeant hill? mr. carroll. yes, and others who were present. mr. belin. did you see sergeant hill take it out of his pocket or wherever he had it, or not? mr. carroll. yes, sir. mr. belin. what day did you put your initials on it? mr. carroll. november , . mr. belin. during the drive down from the texas theatre, to the police station, do you remember any conversation with lee harvey oswald? mr. carroll. some. he stated that he had not done anything that--he said, "well, i was carrying a pistol, but that is all." mr. belin. was he ever asked his name? mr. carroll. yes, sir; he was asked his name. mr. belin. did he give his name? mr. carroll. he gave, the best i recall, i wasn't able to look closely, but the best i recall, he gave two names, i think. i don't recall what the other one was. mr. belin. did he give two names? or did someone in the car read from the identification? mr. carroll. someone in the car may have read from the identification. i know two names, the best i recall, were mentioned. mr. belin. were any addresses mentioned? mr. carroll. not that i recall; no, sir. mr. belin. did you talk at any time to oswald in the car? mr. carroll. no, sir; i had no conversation with him personally. mr. belin. you were driving the car? mr. carroll. yes. if i looked at him, i would have to turn around. mr. belin. did you talk to him after you got downtown to the station? mr. carroll. no, sir. mr. belin. did you hear him say anything after he got downtown to the station? mr. carroll. no; i didn't hear him say anything. mr. belin. did you ever hear anyone say anything about his having an address on north beckley or on beckley street? mr. carroll. i heard later, but i couldn't say who it was that said it. mr. belin. when you say later, you mean later than what? mr. carroll. later that day. mr. belin. was this after you relinquished custody of oswald? mr. carroll. yes. mr. belin. up to that time had you heard it? mr. carroll. i don't recall hearing it prior to the time i was in the city hall. mr. belin. anything else you can think of, whether we have discussed this or not, that in any way might be relevant? mr. carroll. no, sir; because when we brought him out of the car, we took him straight up to the homicide and robbery office and there left him in custody of a homicide and robbery officer. mr. belin. when this gun, commission exhibit , was taken by you and then subsequently given to hill, did you at any time notice whether it was or was not loaded? mr. carroll. i observed sergeant hill unload the gun. mr. belin. how many bullets were in it? mr. carroll. it was full. i believe there was six bullets, the best i recall. mr. belin. all right, sir; we thank you again for making the second trip down, and we are sorry we didn't have the exhibit here when you first testified. you have an opportunity, if you like, to read your deposition and sign it before it goes to washington, or you can waive. mr. carroll. i will sign it. mr. belin. all right, you will be contacted. mr. carroll. all right, fine. testimony of thomas alexander hutson the testimony of thomas alexander hutson was taken at a.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. david w. belin, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. belin. would you stand and raise your right hand, please. do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. hutson. i do. mr. belin. will you please state your name? mr. hutson. thomas a. hutson. mr. belin. and your occupation? mr. hutson. police officer for the city of dallas. mr. belin. how old are you, mr. hutson? mr. hutson. thirty-five years. mr. belin. how long have you been a police officer? mr. hutson. nine years. mr. belin. go to school here in dallas? mr. hutson. yes, sir. mr. belin. high school? mr. hutson. yes, sir. mr. belin. graduate of high school or not? mr. hutson. yes, sir. mr. belin. what school? mr. hutson. forest avenue high school. mr. belin. where did you go when you got out of high school? mr. hutson. went to work for texas & pacific railway in the general office at elm and griffin street as a mail clerk. mr. belin. how long was that? mr. hutson. that was in , in july--that is in january of , and i worked there continuously until july of , when i enlisted in the u.s. army. mr. belin. how long did you serve in the army? mr. hutson. four years. mr. belin. what did you do there? mr. hutson. i went to fort ord, calif., for basic training, and from there i went to germany and joined the st infantry division, and i joined them in october of . i landed in germany and i stayed with them in germany until may of , when i returned to the united states and was stationed at fort sam houston. mr. belin. what did you do, basically, in germany? mr. hutson. i started out in the infantry, and when i left germany i was in a more or less administrative part of my infantry company, doing mail and administrative work in the sergeant's office. plus, of course, you are primarily an infantry soldier anyway. mr. belin. you got back to the states? mr. hutson. right. in may of , and i went to fort sam houston, tex., where i was promoted to infantry sergeant, platoon sergeant, and there i gave instructions in infantry tactics. mr. belin. and eventually you were discharged? mr. hutson. i went to camp pickett, va., and we were there--this was during the korean war when i started to train men in camp pickett, va., and i got an extended year from a -year enlistment, and i was discharged in july of . mr. belin. honorable discharge? mr. hutson. yes, sir. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. hutson. i returned to dallas and went back to work for texas & pacific railway as an interchange clerk in the accounting office. mr. belin. how long did you stay with them? mr. hutson. i stayed with texas & pacific for approximately a year, and at this time i resigned and a lifelong friend and i went into the service station business at harwood and grand here in dallas. mr. belin. how long did you stay in the service station business? mr. hutson. we stayed in the service station business months. i sold my interest to him around february the th, and i went to work for the dallas police department. mr. belin. what year? mr. hutson. . mr. belin. what were your duties in the dallas police department in the fall of ? mr. hutson. i was a -wheel motorcycle officer. mr. belin. would that have included november , ? mr. hutson. yes, sir; it would. mr. belin. did you have anything to do in connection with the presidential motorcade on november ? mr. hutson. yes; i did. mr. belin. what did you do? mr. hutson. i was in charge of "no parking" on all of north harwood street and main street to field on both sides of the street. mr. belin. after the motorcade passed down main, what did you do? mr. hutson. i was at main and ervay avenue, and after the motorcade passed, i began to pick up my "no-parking" signs. mr. belin. were you at main and ervay when the motorcade passed? mr. hutson. right. mr. belin. to direct traffic? mr. hutson. i was trying--we were trying to hold the noon crowds back that was surging in the street. mr. belin. after the motorcade passed, then you started picking up the signs? mr. hutson. yes. mr. belin. what did you do after that? mr. hutson. as i was picking up the signs, i heard a signal , involving the president of the united states at elm and houston. mr. belin. now had you heard anything ahead of that time? mr. hutson. i saw this squad car go by me with the siren on. mr. belin. all right. mr. hutson. and as i got back to my motorcycle from picking up the signs, i heard the signal , involving the president of the united states at elm and houston. i immediately made an emergency run to this location. mr. belin. what did you do when you got there? mr. hutson. i pulled up in front of the texas school book depository and got off my motorcycle and took a position up on the sidewalk in front of the main entrance. mr. belin. now there are a few steps between the sidewalk and the main entrance. were you at the bottom of the steps? mr. hutson. yes; i was at the bottom of the steps. mr. belin. what did you do at the bottom of the steps? mr. hutson. i stopped people and screened them from trying to enter, and prevented anyone from leaving if he got through the other two officers. mr. belin. you were there with two more officers? mr. hutson. yes, sir. mr. belin. where were they? mr. hutson. they were at the top of the stairs at the door. mr. belin. do you know the names of these officers? mr. hutson. i am not positive, but the best of my knowledge, it was j. b. garrick and h. r. freeman. mr. belin. were those officers there when you got there? mr. hutson. yes, sir. mr. belin. were they motorcycle officers or not? mr. hutson. solo motorcycle officers. mr. belin. how long did you stay there? mr. hutson. i don't know the exact amount of time that i stayed there. mr. belin. what is your best judgment? mr. hutson. thirty minutes. mr. belin. why did you leave? mr. hutson. i was relieved by my sergeant. mr. belin. did you let people go in that said they were employees within the building? mr. hutson. no, sir. one lady came up that was an employee. i refused to let anyone enter except police officers. mr. belin. did you see anyone leave the building? mr. hutson. no, sir. mr. belin. was your back to the building? mr. hutson. yes, sir. mr. belin. now there were lots of people milling around at that time, i assume? mr. hutson. not at the entrance, there wasn't when i first got there. there wasn't a big crowd around that building, but all the sirens coming in, that is what brought the big crowd. mr. belin. could you hear any witnesses say they had seen a rifle or anything from the building? mr. hutson. no; i didn't. mr. belin. well, you left. what did you do when you were relieved from duty? mr. hutson. as i was being released, i heard the radio dispatcher come on the radio and give a signal , and that a shooting involving a police officer in the block of east jefferson, and he came back on shortly and said to check both east jefferson and east tenth, that they weren't sure on the exact location. mr. belin. was this at about the time you were being released? mr. hutson. yes, sir. mr. belin. now when you first got the signal to go to elm and houston, did he say elm and houston? mr. hutson. elm and houston, that is the location i heard. mr. belin. how long do you feel that it took you to get from where you were on main at that time? mr. hutson. i was in the block of main street, eastbound, and i made a turn and used my siren and red lights, and the maximum amount of time it could have taken me would be minutes. mr. belin. so you got there in minutes, and within minutes after you heard the signal you were stopping people from going in? mr. hutson. yes. mr. belin. you are nodding your head, yes? mr. hutson. yes. mr. belin. do you know how many minutes after the shooting you heard the first notice over the police radio? mr. hutson. no, i don't. mr. belin. at times you were working away from your police radio while you were picking up the signs, is that correct? mr. hutson. yes; and you can't hear the radio from a distance. mr. belin. when you heard this news about this shooting in oak cliff--by the way, where was your regular station ordinarily? mr. hutson. i worked west of vernon on jefferson. mr. belin. is that oak cliff? mr. hutson. yes; that is west jefferson boulevard. mr. belin. what did you do after you heard about the shooting? mr. hutson. i got on my motorcycle and i proceeded down through the triple underpass and up onto r. l. thornton freeway to oak cliff. mr. belin. where did you go? mr. hutson. i exited off jefferson and went to the block of east jefferson boulevard and began a search of the two-story house behind th street where the officer had been shot. mr. belin. all right. mr. hutson. and after we searched this area, i got in the squad car with officer ray hawkins, who was driving, and officer baggett was riding in the back seat. mr. belin. why did you get inside the squad car? mr. hutson. the clutch on my motorcycle was burned out and i couldn't get any speed, and i just barely made it over there, and i didn't know whether i would be able to start and go or not. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. hutson. we proceeded west on th street to beckley, and we pulled into the mobil gas station at beckley and th street. mr. belin. that is a mobil gas station? mr. hutson. yes. mr. belin. all right. mr. hutson. and officer ray hawkins and officer baggett went inside of the mobil gas station. and i am not positive, but i think they used the telephone to call in. i am not positive, but i believe they gave us a call for us to call. i mean their number to call in. at the time they were in the service station, i heard the dispatcher give a call that the suspect was just seen running across the lawn at the oak cliff branch library at marsalis and jefferson. i reached over and blew the siren on the squad car to attract the officers' attention, officers baggett and hawkins, and they came running out of the service station and jumped in the car, and i told them to report to, i can't remember, marsalis and jefferson, the suspect was seen running across the lawn at the library. we proceeded south on beckley to jefferson, and east on jefferson to marsalis, where we hit the ground and searched the area at the library for the suspect who was--a teenager had run across the lawn and into the basement of the library. at this time, after we found out that this person wasn't involved, we returned to the squad car and began to drive west on jefferson, west on east jefferson, and as we approached the block of east jefferson, the dispatcher said on the radio, that a suspect was just seen entering the texas theatre. mr. belin. now the suspect in the library, do you know who he was? mr. hutson. no; i don't. there were several officers at the location, including some constables from the constable's office in oak cliff at beckley and th, and there were four or five persons that came out from the basement with their hands over their head. one of them was a young boy there, and another officer or two checked him. a sergeant was there. mr. belin. was that young boy the one that they thought was a suspect? mr. hutson. yes. mr. belin. do you know what the young boy said he was doing there? mr. hutson. no, sir; i didn't interrogate him or talk to him. mr. belin. then you heard about another report on the suspect, you say? mr. hutson. yes, sir. then we left that location as we were proceeding west on east jefferson, and as we approached the block of east jefferson, the radio dispatcher said that a suspect had just entered the texas theatre. mr. belin. all right, now, prior to that time had there been any recovery of any items of clothing? mr. hutson. yes, sir. mr. belin. when did that occur? mr. hutson. that occurred while we were searching the rear of the house in the block of east jefferson boulevard at the rear of the texaco station. behind cars parked on a lot at this location, a white jacket was picked up by another officer. i observed him as he picked it up, and it was stated that this is probably the suspect's jacket. the original description was that he was wearing a white jacket. mr. belin. what kind of jacket was it? mr. hutson. it looked like a white cloth jacket to me. mr. belin. was it the zipper type? mr. hutson. i didn't see it that close. i was approximately yards away from the officer who picked it up. mr. belin. all right, go ahead, continue with your story. you heard about the suspect going into the texas theatre? mr. hutson. yes, sir. mr. belin. then what happened? mr. hutson. i told officer hawkins to drive west on jefferson. he didn't know the exact location of the texas theatre. and from west on jefferson to north on south zangs boulevard, and to make a left turn to travel west on west sunset the wrong direction, which is a one-way street, and then to cut back in across the parking lot at the rear of the theatre to the fire exit doors at the rear. mr. belin. all right. mr. hutson. we pulled up to this location and i was the first out of the car to hit the ground. as i walked up to the fire exit doors, officer hawkins and baggett were getting out of the car, and the door to the theatre opened, and this unknown white male was exiting. i drew my pistol and put it on him and told him to put up his hands and not to make a move, and he was real nervous and scared and said: "i am not the one. i just came back to open the door. i work up the street at the shoestore, and julia sent me back to open the door so you could get in." i walked up and searched him briefly and i could see by the description and his clothes that he wasn't the person we were looking for. then i entered the theatre from this door, and officer hawkins with me, and officer baggett stayed behind to cover the fire exit door. we walked down the bottom floor of the theatre, and i was joined there by officer walker by me, and as we walked up the north aisle from the center section, i observed officer mcdonald walking up the south aisle from the center section, and we observed two suspects sitting near the front in the center section. mr. belin. you were on the right center or the left center? mr. hutson. i was on the left center. mr. belin. that would be the left center, and mcdonald on the right center aisle? mr. hutson. yes; and officer walker was with me on the left center aisle. officer mcdonald and walker searched these two suspects, had them stand up and searched them while i covered. as soon as they were searched--well, i left out that part about the number of people sitting in the theatre on the lower floor. when i walked in, i noticed there were seven people i observed sitting on the lower floor. mr. belin. did you count them? mr. hutson. yes, sir; i counted them. mr. belin. all right, seven people. there were two people you noticed toward the front of the center section, right? mr. hutson. right. mr. belin. then where were the other five? mr. hutson. there was two sitting in the center section near the front, and directly behind them, five rows from the back, and three seats over, i am not sure whether that was the third row--i put it in my report---- mr. belin. you say you put it in your report. is that your report dated december , ? mr. hutson. the third row from the back and the fifth seat. mr. belin. was there another person there? mr. hutson. that was another person. mr. belin. who was that? mr. hutson. that was lee harvey oswald. mr. belin. you didn't know it at the time? mr. hutson. i didn't know who it was; no, sir. mr. belin. then who else? mr. hutson. and directly behind him sitting against the back of the theatre was another man. mr. belin. in the back of the last row of the center section? mr. hutson. yes. mr. belin. that accounts for four people. where were the others? mr. hutson. there were two young boys. mr. belin. where were they? mr. hutson. they were sitting back on the same row as that man, back row. mr. belin. right center or left center? mr. hutson. they were sitting in the left as you face the screen, left center section. mr. belin. all right, that accounts for six of them, and the only other people was one person sitting over here to the right side toward the rear? mr. hutson. yes; toward the rear. mr. belin. do you remember how many people were upstairs, or didn't you count? mr. hutson. i couldn't tell, so many people up there, and so many policemen when i looked up. i don't have any idea. mr. belin. then what happened after you saw these two people towards the front of the center section? were they searched? mr. hutson. yes, sir. mr. belin. then what? mr. hutson. then i proceeded up the aisle toward the back of the theatre, and mcdonald was walking toward the back of the theatre in the right center section aisle. as he approached this person sitting in the same row of seats, he approached this person. i approached from the row behind. mr. belin. you approached from the second row from the back? mr. hutson. yes, sir. mr. belin. all right, then what did you see happen? mr. hutson. i saw this person stand up, and mcdonald and him became engaged in a struggle. mr. belin. did you see who hit whom first? mr. hutson. no. mr. belin. you are shaking your head, no. mr. hutson. no, i didn't. mr. belin. okay. mr. hutson. the lights were down. the lights were on in the theatre, but it was dark. mr. belin. all right. mr. hutson. visibility was poor. mr. belin. then what did you see happen? mr. hutson. i saw mcdonald down in the seat beside this person, and this person was in a half standing crouching position pushing down on the left side of mcdonald's face, and mcdonald was trying to push him off. mr. belin. this person was right-handed? you have used a motion here that he was pushing on the left side of mcdonald's face? mr. hutson. right. mr. belin. all right. mr. hutson. and mcdonald was trying to hold him off with his hand. mr. belin. all right. mr. hutson. i reached over from the back of the seat with my right arm and put it around this person's throat. mr. belin. all right. mr. hutson. and pulled him back up on the back of the seat that he was originally sitting in. at this time officer c. t. walker came up in the same row of seats that the struggle was taking place in and grabbed this person's left hand and held it. mr. belin. okay. mr. hutson. mcdonald was at this time simultaneously trying to hold this person's right hand. somehow this person moved his right hand to his waist, and i saw a revolver come out, and mcdonald was holding on to it with his right hand, and this gun was waving up toward the back of the seat like this. mr. belin. now you had your left hand, or was it mcdonald's left hand, on the suspect's right hand? mr. hutson. mcdonald was using both of his hands to hold onto this person's right hand. mr. belin. okay. mr. hutson. and the gun was waving around towards the back of the seat, up and down, and i heard a snapping sound at one time. mr. belin. what kind of snapping sound was it? mr. hutson. sounded like the snap of a pistol, to me, when a pistol snaps. mr. belin. do you know which way the pistol was pointing when you heard the snap? mr. hutson. was pointing toward the back of the seat. mr. belin. it was pointing toward the back of the seat? mr. hutson. yes; toward the screen in the front of the theatre, in that direction. mr. belin. wait a minute, now. toward the screen? mr. hutson. right. mr. belin. toward the front of the theatre, or the back of the theatre? mr. hutson. toward the front of the theatre, we will call, facing the screen. mr. belin. was it aiming at anyone in particular? mr. hutson. no; not any officer in particular. the only one that could have came in the line of fire was officer ray hawkins, who was walking up in the row of seats in front. mr. belin. did you hear any people say anything? did you hear the suspect say anything? mr. hutson. i don't remember hearing anybody say anything. mr. belin. did you hear officer mcdonald say anything? mr. hutson. no. mr. belin. you are shaking your head no. mr. hutson. no, sir. mr. belin. all right, what happened then? mr. hutson. the gun was taken from the suspect's hand by officer mcdonald and somebody else. i couldn't say exactly. they were all in on the struggle, and officer hawkins, in other words, he simultaneously, we decided to handcuff him. we had restrained him after the pistol was taken, but he was still resisting arrest, and we stood him up and i let go of his neck at this time and took hold of his right arm and attempted to bring it back behind him, and officer hawkins and walker and myself attempted to handcuff him. at this time sgt. jerry hill came up and assisted as we were handcuffing. then captain westbrook came in and gave the order to get him out of here as fast as you can and don't let anybody see him, and he was rushed out of the theatre. i was in the row of seats behind. i saw officer walker and sgt. jerry hill had ahold of him, and that is the last i ever saw him. mr. belin. did you ever see him down at the police station thereafter? mr. hutson. oswald? mr. belin. yes, sir. mr. hutson. no, sir; i never did see him again. mr. belin. how do you know this was oswald? mr. hutson. after we finished up in the theatre, i went downtown and went into the office where they were writing up the report, and to tell them the part i took in the arrest of him, to get the information, and at this time they had his name, lee harvey oswald, but all we knew is, he was probably the suspect that shot the officer. mr. belin. in the theatre did you know that he had any connection with the assassination? mr. hutson. no, sir. mr. belin. when did the police stop hitting him? mr. hutson. i never did ever see them hit him. mr. belin. you never saw any police hit him? mr. hutson. no, sir; i didn't. mr. belin. is there anything else that you can think of about this incident that you haven't related here? while you are thinking about it, i am going to get a piece of clothing here for a minute and i will be back. anything else, officer, you can think of? mr. hutson. i can't think of anything else right now. mr. belin. i am showing you commission exhibit , which appears to be a jacket with a zipper. does that look like the jacket you saw? mr. hutson. that looks like the jacket that was picked up by the officer behind the texaco service station, behind the cars parked on the lot. mr. belin. how far were you from the officer when he picked it up? mr. hutson. approximately yards. mr. belin. did you hear what he said when he picked it up? mr. hutson. i heard something--someone make the statement that that looks like the suspect's jacket. he has thrown it down. he is not wearing it now. mr. belin. where is this texaco station? mr. hutson. it is in the block of east jefferson at the intersection. it is on the northeast corner of the intersection of crawford and jefferson. mr. belin. how far north of jefferson would this jacket have been when it was found? mr. hutson. one-half block. mr. belin. do you know the name of the officer that found it? mr. hutson. no, sir; i don't know. mr. belin. what happened to the jacket? mr. hutson. the last time i saw this jacket, the officer had it in his possession. mr. belin. do you know who he gave it to? mr. hutson. no, sir; i don't. mr. belin. you don't know if he gave it to captain westbrook? mr. hutson. i don't know. captain westbrook was there behind the house with us, and he was there at the time this was picked up with the man, but i don't know who had it in their hands. the only time i saw it was when the officer had it. mr. belin. showing you commission exhibit , have you ever seen this before, or not? mr. hutson. it looks like the shirt that the person was wearing that we arrested in the theatre. mr. belin. officer, you have the right, if you want, to come back and read your deposition and sign it, or you can waive the signing and let the court reporter send it to us directly in washington. do you desire to do either one? mr. hutson. i will go ahead and sign it. mr. belin. the court reporter can get in touch with you at the dallas police department, is that correct? mr. hutson. yes. mr. belin. we want to thank you very much for your cooperation, and please convey my thanks to your sergeant or captain, whoever is in charge. mr. hutson. all right, nice to have seen you all. testimony of c. t. walker the testimony of c. t. walker was taken at : p.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. david w. belin, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. belin. do you want to stand and raise your right hand and be sworn? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. walker. i do. mr. belin. what is your name, please? mr. walker. c. t. walker. mr. belin. what is your occupation, mr. walker? mr. walker. accident investigations at the dallas police department. mr. belin. how old are you? mr. walker. i am years old. mr. belin. married? mr. walker. yes. mr. belin. family? mr. walker. one child. one girl. mr. belin. how long have you been with the dallas police department? mr. walker. five years in july. mr. belin. what did you do prior to that? mr. walker. i worked in chance vought aircraft, in grand prairie. mr. belin. where were you born? mr. walker. stephenville, tex.--i wasn't born there, i am sorry. i was born in slaton, tex. mr. belin. where were you born? mr. walker. slaton, tex. mr. belin. where did you go to school? mr. walker. stephenville, tex. mr. belin. did you you go to high school there? mr. walker. i didn't finish high school. mr. belin. how far did you finish? mr. walker. tenth grade. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. walker. i went to work at that time for consolidated aircraft in fort worth, tex. mr. belin. how long did you work for them? mr. walker. approximately years. mr. belin. what did you do? mr. walker. aircraft mechanic work. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. walker. i worked--i went back to slaton, tex., and worked for my uncle there for year drilling irrigation wells. mr. belin. after that what did you do? mr. walker. i came back to grand prairie and went to work there and worked there - / years. mr. belin. doing what? mr. walker. aircraft mechanic and electrical work. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. walker. i came to work for the dallas police department. mr. belin. when was that? mr. walker. , july the th. mr. belin. and you have been there ever since? mr. walker. yes, sir. mr. belin. were you on duty on november , ? mr. walker. yes; i was. mr. belin. will you state where you were on duty around or : or so on that day? mr. walker. i was at jefferson and tenth street at the fire station. mr. belin. is that in the oak cliff section there? mr. walker. yes; it is. mr. belin. what were you doing there? mr. walker. i was cruising the area and i had heard on the radio about the disturbance downtown, so i checked out at the fire station. i didn't check out. i just stopped and went in and listened to the news broadcast to find out in more detail what happened. mr. belin. were you cruising alone at that time? mr. walker. yes. mr. belin. is it general procedure for officers cruising in the daytime to work alone or in pairs? mr. walker. accident investigations, we work alone. that is day and night. mr. belin. day and night? mr. walker. yes. mr. belin. what about nonaccident investigation? do you know offhand? mr. walker. radio patrol work, one man during the day. second and third platoon, they work two men. mr. belin. that would be the second platoon would come to work about in the afternoon? mr. walker. yes, sir. mr. belin. did you know officer j. d. tippit? mr. walker. yes. mr. belin. ever work with him at all? mr. walker. i believe i have. i can't recall. i worked at the same substation he did before i transferred downtown, and i knew him quite well. i talked to him. he worked at austin, and i have talked to him there. mr. belin. well, let's leave officer tippit for the moment and return to the fire station. you were there and you say you called in around shortly after you heard the news? mr. walker. yes. i went directly there. i was about a block away or might have been in the block i don't recall exactly. mr. belin. you mean a block away from the fire station? mr. walker. yes. mr. belin. then what did you do when you called in? mr. walker. i didn't call in. i just went in there and looked. they have a television there, and they broadcast that the president had been shot. i had my radio up so i could hear from the door, and i went back out to my car. they were sending squads downtown, code . and i don't recall, i don't believe they actually sent me. i just went on my own because they normally don't send us in this type of call. mr. belin. so you went on your own where? mr. walker. i went to the texas school book depository. mr. belin. that is at elm and houston? mr. walker. yes. mr. belin. where did you park your car? mr. walker. right in front of the building. mr. belin. what did you do after you got your car parked? mr. walker. went inside the building. mr. belin. where did you go inside? mr. walker. i went right inside the front doors there and the hallway there and i stayed in there. mr. belin. what did you do? mr. walker. well, there was squads of police upstairs supposedly searching the building out, and someone said they have enough upstairs, so i didn't go upstairs. mr belin. what did you do when you were downstairs? mr. walker. we were checking persons as they came in the building. mr. belin. did you keep people from coming in or going out, or what? mr. walker. we didn't let anyone in or out except policemen. mr. belin. about how soon after you saw the telecast do you think you got down there? mr. walker. ten or fifteen minutes. mr. belin. was the building sealed off at that time? mr. walker. yes; it was. mr. belin. did anyone tell you when they got it sealed off, or not? mr. walker. no; they didn't. mr. belin. what did you do after that? mr. walker. i heard that an officer had been killed in oak cliff, had been shot, and i got back in my car and started off. a newsman ran up to the window and said, "can i ride with you," and i let him get in the car and i went to oak cliff and th street, and drove by the scene. in fact, there was two newspapermen, but one got out at the scene where officer tippit was killed. mr. belin. was officer tippit's car still there? mr. walker. yes; it was still there. mr. belin. do you have any recollection--did you take a look at the car or not? mr. walker. i didn't really look real close. mr. belin. did you talk to any witnesses there? mr. walker. no; i didn't get out. mr. belin. what did you do then? mr. walker. i started up cruising the area, and i went up the street that runs north and south and faces the, runs into the library at jefferson and marsalis, and i saw a white male running east across the lawn of the library. i was still approximately three-fourths of the block from jefferson, and he was even south of jefferson. mr. belin. how far would he have been from you then when you saw him? mr. walker. he was over a block. mr. belin. all right. mr. walker. i put out a broadcast on the air that there was a person fitting the description on the air that was seen running in front of the library, and i gave the location and said i will be around at the back. i ran around to the back of the library and other squads then surrounded the library. mr. belin. you were not the one that put out the first description of the suspect they sought? mr. walker. i didn't. the newspaperman was still with me at that time. mr. belin. what was the description, if you remember, over the radio as to what you were looking for? mr. walker. a white male, slender build, and had on a light-colored coat or shirt, and that is the best i can recall. mr. belin. all right. mr. walker. about years old, i think he said. mr. belin. then what did you do? did you go into the library? mr. walker. as soon as the squads got there, i walked around with the other squads to the west entrance of the building, and we ordered everyone out of the building. they all came out with their hands up. mr. belin. was this the upstairs? mr. walker. no; it is the downstairs. you had to go downstairs to get to it. mr. belin. something like a basement? mr. walker. yes. it is a semibasement, i would call it. and everyone came out, and i saw the person that had run in there, and he said that he had ran there to tell the other people about the shooting. and let's see, that he worked there, he told me he worked there and everything. i soon determined he wasn't the one. mr. belin. then what happened? mr. walker. i got back in my car and started cruising the area again. i went up and down the alleys and streets. and there was one incident that really didn't have anything to do with it. i guess i was cruising up the alley with the newspaperman in the car, and i saw a man in long white sleeves, white shirt, walking across the parking lot there of the church, and i couldn't see below his legs, and there was a picket fence there, and when he got about feet from me, i stopped the car, and he was walking toward me, and i had my gun in my lap at the time, and i said, "what is your name?" and he just looked at me. and at that time i didn't know whether he had a rifle or what he had, and he just looked at me, and he bent over, and i stuck my gun in the window and he raised up and had a small dog and he said, "what did you say?" and of course that newspaperman said, "my god, i thought he was going to shoot us." i said, "i thought he was reaching down for a rifle." of course, he reached down and picked up a little dog. then we got around to beckley and th street, still cruising the area, when i heard the call come over the radio that the suspect was supposed to be at the theatre on jefferson. mr. belin. was this the texas theatre? mr. walker. texas theatre; yes. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. walker. i went in the alley up to the back door. when i arrived there, there was several officers there. there was a plainclothesman up on the ladder back there. i don't know what he was doing up there, but he was up on the ladder that goes up that door that is in the back. and there were several officers around the back of the theatre, and myself, and mcdonald, and officer hutson went in the back door. and this man told us, or this boy told us that there was someone, said the person that he had seen was inside the theatre, and that he had changed seats several times, and he thought he was out there in the middle now. mr. belin. did he say that he had seen him? did he tell you what he had seen him do, or not? mr. walker. he said he seen him duck into the store where he worked, kind of looked back, and looked like he was running, and just run into the theatre. mr. belin. did he say why he seemed to duck in the store at all? mr. walker. no; he didn't. he said he looked like he was scared. mr. belin. then do you remember this man's name that you talked to? mr. walker. no; it was just for a second, and i went on past him. mr. belin. all right, this was at the back of the theatre? mr. walker. yes. mr. belin. did anyone have a gun drawn when this man came? mr. walker. i had my gun out. i had my gun out when i walked in the back of the theatre. mr. belin. did you have your gun as you continued walking through the back of the theatre? mr. walker. i walked--mcdonald and i walked across the stage, and he walked across the farthest away. it would be the south aisle. and i jumped off there where the north aisle runs east and west, and we started up. hutson went down the steps in front of both of us, and he was slightly in front of me. mr. belin. you are speaking about officer t. a. hutson and officer m. n. mcdonald and yourself? mr. walker. yes, sir. mr. belin. the three of you came in from the back? mr. walker. yes; and there were probably a couple more, but i just don't remember. mr. belin. those are the three you remember? mr. walker. yes. mr. belin. now as you faced the screen, were you going up the right center or the left center aisle? mr. walker. as i faced the screen, i would be going up the left. mr. belin. was it the left center aisle or was it the far left aisle that you were going up? mr. walker. be the far left aisle, i believe. mr. belin. next to the wall? mr. walker. no; there is no aisle exactly against the wall. there is a row of seats, and then an aisle, and the middle aisle, and then another row of seats. mr. belin. so you would be in the aisle, as you faced the screen, which would be to the left of the center row of seats? mr. walker. that's right. mr. belin. okay; just tell what happened. mr. walker. there were two white males sitting approximately in the center of the show. the lights had come on, and i don't know at what point they come on. mr. belin. about how many people was seated down on the first floor? mr. walker. there were two in the middle, and then there was oswald, who turned out to be oswald--i didn't know at that time it was him--and two behind him, i believe. i think there was one in the aisle, in the seats to the right of the right aisle. i don't know how you describe it, south of the south aisle, what i call it. mr. belin. you were coming up the north aisle? mr. walker. and this other person was sitting over on the other side of the show. mr. belin. do you recall then a total of six people? mr. walker. that is all i recall seeing. mr. belin. the people behind the man that you later found out to be oswald, how far were they behind? mr. walker. they were about three or four or five seats behind him. mr. belin. in what row were they? mr. walker. i believe they were in the last row, or maybe the next to the last. mr. belin. what row was oswald in, to the best of your recollection? mr. walker. the best i recall, fourth or fifth aisle from me, from the back. mr. belin. fourth or fifth row from the back? mr. walker. yes. mr. belin. all right, now, you mentioned there were two people sitting together in the center? mr. walker. yes. mr. belin. you came up and approached those people? mr. walker. mcdonald approached them from the---- mr. belin. right? mr. walker. right center aisle, and i approached from the left center aisle. mr. belin. did you have your gun drawn? mr. walker. i had it drawn, and i put it back in my holster. mr. belin. why did you do that? mr. walker. i had to search him. as i got up to him, we had him stand up and we searched him with their hands up, and i had my gun in the holster. i searched the one on the left, and mcdonald searched the one on the right. mr. belin. were you looking at other people? mr. walker. i looked around. of course, i didn't recognize anybody. i didn't know who they were. mr. belin. then what? mr. walker. i walked back up to the aisle that i had been going down, and mcdonald walked out the aisle he had been walking down, and we approached the aisle where oswald was sitting. mcdonald approached him from his aisle, and hutson, which was in front of me on the same aisle, had started in the seat toward oswald, in the seat that runs behind him. mr. belin. you mean the row of seats that ran behind him? mr. walker. and he started down that way, and i was walking toward him slightly behind him in the same row of seats that oswald was sitting. mr. belin. so you approached oswald from oswald's left, and mcdonald approached oswald from oswald's right? mr. walker. that's right. mr. belin. was oswald sitting closer to mcdonald, or you? mr. walker. closer to mcdonald. he was sitting in the third seat from mcdonald's aisle. mr. belin. all right, then, what happened? mr. walker. mcdonald approached him, and he said, i don't know exactly, i assumed he said, "stand up!" and oswald stood up. mr. belin. did you hear oswald say anything? mr. walker. no. mr. belin. was oswald facing you as he stood up? mr. walker. no; he faced mcdonald. mr. belin. all right. mr. walker. he put his hand up, not exactly as you would raise your hands to be searched, but more or less showing off his muscles, what i call it, kind of hunching his shoulders at the same time, and mcdonald put his hand down to oswald's pocket, it looked like to me, and mcdonald's head was tilted slightly to the right, looking down in the right hand. mr. belin. looking in whose? mr. walker. mcdonald's right hand as he was searching, and he felt of his pocket, and oswald then hit him, it appeared, with his left hand first, and then with his right hand. they was scuffling there, and officer hutson and i ran toward the back of oswald and hutson threw his arm around his neck, and i grabbed his left arm, and we threw him back over the seat. at this time i didn't see any gun that was involved. i don't know whether we pulled oswald away from mcdonald for a split second or what, but he was thrown back against the seat, and then the next thing i saw, oswald's hand was down on the gun in his belt there, and mcdonald had came forward again and was holding his, oswald's hand. mr. belin. when you saw oswald's hand by his belt, which hand did you see by his belt? mr. walker. i saw his right hand. i had his left hand, you see. mr. belin. when you saw oswald's hand by his belt, which hand did you see then? mr. walker. he had ahold of the handle of it. mr. belin. handle of what? mr. walker. the revolver. mr. belin. was there a revolver there? mr. walker. yes; there was. mr. belin. all right. mr. walker. and it stayed there for a second or two. he didn't get it out. mcdonald had come forward and was holding his hand. ray hawkins was behind me to my left at that time, and whether or not he came at the same time we did or not, but he was there, and there was a detective. oswald had ahold of my shirt and he practically pulled off my nameplate by gripping it with his hand, and i was bent over, and i was in an awkward position, and i could see several hands on the gun. the gun finally got out of his belt, and it was about waist high and pointed out at about a ° angle. i turned around and i was holding oswald trying to get his arm up behind him in a hammerlock, and i heard it click. i turned around and the gun was still pointing at approximately a ° angle. be pointed slightly toward the screen, what i call. now hawkins was in the general direction of the gun. mr. belin. when you heard a click, what kind of click was it? mr. walker. a real light click, real light. mr. belin. was it a click of the seat? mr. walker. well, i assume it was a click of a revolver on the shell, and that is when the gun was doing the most moving around. it was moving around in the general area, and they were still fighting. and some one said, "let go of the gun," and oswald said, "i can't." and a detective, i don't recall who it was, there were so many people around by that time, the area was bursting with policemen, and it appeared to me that he reached over and pulled the gun away from everybody, pulled it away from everyone, best i can recall. mr. belin. okay, what happened then? mr. walker. ray hawkins was on my left. he said, "bring his arm around," and said, "i have the handcuffs." he said, "bring his arm around so i can get the cuffs on him." i finally got his left arm around and i snapped the cuffs on it, and hawkins went over the seat there and picked up, someone pulled his right arm around there, and hawkins snapped the handcuffs on him, and turned him around and faced him, oswald, north. and detective bentley got on his left arm and i took his right arm, and we went out the aisle that i, which would be the left aisle, that i had came in, with oswald, and walked him out the front. he was hollering, "i protest this police brutality." mr. belin. all right. let me ask you this. what is the fact as to whether you had seen police officers hitting oswald? mr. walker. the only person i saw was mcdonald. they were exchanging blows, and if he actually came in contact. he was to my back. mr. belin. did you see anyone other than mcdonald hit oswald? mr. walker. no; i didn't. mr. belin. did you hit oswald? mr. walker. no; i didn't. mr. belin. did hutson hit oswald? mr. walker. no, sir; he didn't. mr. belin. all right, go ahead. did oswald say, "i am not resisting arrest"? do you remember him saying that at all, or don't you remember? mr. walker. the only thing he said later, i know, was, "i fought back there, but i know i wasn't supposed to be carrying a gun." mr. belin. in any event, you brought him down the lobby of the theatre? mr. walker. when we went out the front door, he started hollering, "i protest this police brutality." people out there were hollering, "kill the s.o.b." "let us have him. we want him." mr. belin. at that time, did anyone connect him with the assassination of the president? mr. walker. not unless the crowd had assumed that is who we were after, i don't know. mr. belin. when you were after him, you were after him for what? mr. walker. for the killing of officer tippit. mr. belin. all right, go ahead. mr. walker. there was a plain car, police car out in front. the right door was open, and bentley went in first, and oswald come and then i. we sat in the back seat with him. sgt. jerry hill in the front, and two more detectives that i don't know who they were, that rode down, too. there were five officers and oswald in the car. we took him down. mr. belin. any conversation take place? first of all, anything up until the time you got in the car that you think is important in any way? mr. walker. not that i recall, no. mr. belin. all right, you got in the car and went down to the police station? mr. walker. as we were driving down there, yes; he said---- mr. belin. who was he? mr. walker. oswald said, "what is this all about?" he was relating this all the time. he said, "i know my rights." that is what he was saying, "i know my rights." and we told him that the police officer, that he was under arrest because the police officer, he was suspected in the murder of a police officer. and he said, "police officer been killed?" and nobody said nothing. he said, "i hear they burn for murder." and i said, "you might find out." and he said, "well, they say it just takes a second to die." and that is all i recall. now we talked some more going down, but that is the thing that i recall. mr. belin. do you recall any other conversation that you had with him, or not? mr. walker. no; he was just denying it, and he was saying that all he did was carry a gun, and the reason he fought back in the theatre is, he knew he wasn't supposed to be carrying a gun, and he had never been to jail. mr. belin. did he say anything about why he was at the theatre? mr. walker. no. mr. belin. did he say why he was carrying the gun? mr. walker. no; he didn't. mr. belin. do you remember what clothes he had on? mr. walker. he had on a white t-shirt under a brown shirt, and a pair of black pants. mr. belin. how would you describe oswald? about how tall? mr. walker. about ' " about pounds, or pounds, something like that. mr. belin. what color hair? mr. walker. i would say sandy, the best i can recall. mr. belin. sandy, by that, you mean blond? mr. walker. darker than blonde. i just don't recall this for sure. mr. belin. some shade of brown? mr. walker. it wasn't what you call blond. it was darker than blond, in my opinion. mr. belin. was it some shade of brown? mr. walker. yes; the best i can recall. mr. belin. anything else about him on your way to the police station? mr. walker. he was real calm. he was extra calm. he wasn't a bit excited or nervous or anything. that was all the conversation i can recall going down. mr. belin. after you got down there, what did you do with him? mr. walker. we took him up the homicide and robbery bureau, and we went back there, and one of the detectives said put him in this room. i put him in the room, and he said, "let the uniform officers stay with him." and i went inside, and oswald sat down, and he was handcuffed with his hands behind him. i sat down there, and i had his pistol, and he had a card in there with a picture of him and the name a. j. hidell on it. mr. belin. do you remember what kind of card it was? mr. walker. just an identification card. i don't recall what it was. mr. belin. all right. mr. walker. and i told him, "that is your real name, isn't it?" mr. belin. he--had he earlier told you his name was lee harvey oswald? mr. walker. i believe he had. mr. belin. all right. mr. walker. and he said, "no, that is not my real name." and i started talking to him and i asked him, i said, "why did you kill the officer?" and he just looked at me. and i said, "did you kill the officer because you were scared of being arrested for something?" and he said, "i am not ascared of anything. do i look like i am scared now?" mr. belin. did he look like he was scared? mr. walker. no; he didn't look like he was scared. he was calm. not a bit nervous. mr. belin. any other thing that you can remember that took place during that time that he was with you? mr. walker. no; i can't recall. mr. belin. were you asked ever to make a report of any conversation you had with him? mr. walker. no; they called me on the phone a couple of days after, and some supervisor asked me, there had been a rumor got out that oswald had said, "well, i got me a president and a cop. i should have got me two more." or something like that. but that conversation was never said, because i was with him from the time that he was arrested until the time the detectives took him over. i made a written report on the arrest about a week after it happened, and that is the only conversation i had with anyone. mr. belin. in that report you didn't put any conversation that oswald had, did you? mr. walker. no; i didn't put any conversation. i just put the details of the arrest. mr. belin. were you asked just to make a report on your arrest of oswald? mr. walker. that is normal procedure, just what we call a "dear chief" letter. just describe the arrest and other officers involved, and we never did put what conversation we had. mr. belin. anything else that oswald said in your presence, or that you said to him? mr. walker. not that i recall. mr. belin. at any time prior to the time you left him, did you find out he was a suspect in the assassination? mr. walker. when i got to the jail office and talk was going there that he was the suspect. mr. belin. did you ask him any questions about the assassination? mr. walker. no; i didn't tie him in at that time with the actual killing of the president. mr. belin. is there anything else you can think of now that might be relevant? mr. walker. no. mr. belin. now we chatted a little bit at the beginning prior to this deposition, and you said that you knew officer tippit, is that correct? mr. walker. yes. mr. belin. how long had you known officer tippit? mr. walker. ever since i have been on the police department. when i first came to work, i was assigned to the oak cliff substation and worked there until i went to traffic investigation, and he was there all the time. i am sure i worked with him when i first started out and was training and stuff like that. but i had worked with him prior to his death for, i know, maybe or years. mr. belin. now at the time of the tippit shooting, there had been no call for lee harvey oswald as an individual, although there was a call for--i mean there was an announcement of a general description of the suspect in the assassination? mr. walker. yes. mr. belin. just from your knowledge of the way tippit operated, do you have any reason to think whether that general call might have affected his perhaps stopping this man on the street at the time of the shooting? mr. walker. i believe the type of officer tippit was, that he was suspicious of him as a suspect. mr. belin. why do you believe that? mr. walker. well, officer tippit was an exceptional officer. he made good arrests. it was known around the station that he was exceptionally good with investigative work and just general police work. he was above normal. mr. belin. why do you think he stopped this man? mr. walker. i believe that the description given on the radio, that he probably stopped just to check him out as a general procedure, as we do. mr. belin. well, if he stopped him for that reason, this man, he would have stopped him because the man was a suspect for perhaps the assassination, why wouldn't he have had his gun out when he stopped him? mr. walker. well, there are a lot of people of that description, and it is just not police practice to pull your gun on a person because he fits the description of someone, unless you are positive almost that it is the suspect. you just don't do it. mr. belin. let me ask you, did you have anything to do on november , or anything more to do on november , with either the tippit shooting or investigation or apprehension of oswald or the assassination of the president's investigation? mr. walker. no. i stayed down in captain westbrook's office for a while until i got off. mr. belin. how about november , did you have anything to do that day? mr. walker. that would have been saturday. mr. belin. or did you work on saturday? mr. walker. yes, i worked on saturday. i didn't follow up on any investigation of any kind. mr. belin. were you going back to accident investigation? mr. walker. yes, i went back to the accident investigation. mr. belin. you didn't have anything to do with anything connected with the assassination after november ? mr. walker. no. mr. belin. is there anything that we haven't covered here that you can think of at this time, officer walker? mr. walker. not that i can think of. it's been a long time, and i just don't recall. i think there was more conversation with oswald, but i can't recall all of it. i just remember what i considered the high points of it. mr. belin. did he ever ask for a lawyer in your presence? mr. walker. i don't recall. i think he said--i know he was repeating, "i know my rights." i don't recall him actually asking for a lawyer. mr. belin. did he say where he got the gun? mr. walker. no, he didn't say where he got the gun. mr. belin. did he admit that it was his gun? mr. walker. never did ask him actually whether it was his gun. he said he knew he was carrying a gun and he wasn't supposed to, so i assumed it was his gun. mr. belin. well, we certainly appreciate your taking the time to come down here to testify before us, and we want to thank you very much for your cooperation. mr. walker. okay. i know you've got a problem here. mr. belin. have i asked you whether or not you care to read the deposition? i don't believe i have. you have an opportunity here to either read the deposition and then sign it, or else waive the signing of it and have the court reporter, helen laidrich, send it directly to us in washington? mr. walker. i will go ahead and sign it. mr. belin. all right, miss laidrich will get in touch with you at the dallas police department, i assume. mr. walker. yes. do you want me to sign it now? mr. belin. i am talking about when she gets it typed up. do you want to read it or have her send it to us directly? mr. walker. do i have to come, down here to read it here? mr. belin. yes, you have to come down and read it here. mr. walker. i will come down and read it and sign it. mr. belin. all right, fine. thank you, sir. testimony of gerald lynn hill the testimony of gerald lynn hill was taken at : p.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. david w. belin, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. belin. sergeant, would you stand and raise your right hand, please. do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. hill. i do. mr. belin. all right. sergeant, could you please state your name. mr. hill. gerald lynn hill. mr. belin. what is your occupation? mr. hill. sergeant in the dallas police department. mr. belin. how long have you been with the dallas police department? mr. hill. since march , . mr. belin. how old are you, sergeant hill? mr. hill. thirty-four. mr. belin. where were you born? mr. hill. ferris, tex. mr. belin. did you go to school there? mr. hill. no, sir; i went to school in dallas. mr. belin. how far did you get through school? mr. hill. went through high school. mr. belin. then what did you do when you got out of high school? mr. hill. went to work for the dallas times herald. worked there from january of until april of . at the time i resigned there, i was radio-television editor for the paper. went from there to the dallas bureau of wbap-tv in fort worth, and worked for them until march the st, . the last weeks i was working for them, i was attending the police academy for the police department. mr. belin. then you went in the police department? mr. hill. i went with the police prior to quitting. i turned in my notice with wbap and they let me work it out while i attended the police school, because i was actually hired on a saturday, and the police school started on monday, and i wanted to leave on good terms with one place and start to school on time with the other, so they worked out an agreement with me. mr. belin. were you on duty on november , ? mr. hill. yes, sir; i was. mr. belin. where were you on duty? mr. hill. i was on special assignment, detached from the police patrol division, and assigned to the police personnel office investigating applicants for the police department. mr. belin. where was this? mr. hill. on that particular day, i was at the city hall in the personnel office, and did not have an assignment of any kind pertaining to the president's trip or any other function other than the investigation of police applicants. mr. belin. when did you leave the city hall? mr. hill. the president had passed the corner of commerce or--excuse me, main and harwood, turned off harwood onto main, and proceeded west on main. i had watched it from the personnel office window, which is on the third floor of the police and courts building, and capt. w. r. westbrook, who was my commander, had apparently been on the streets watching the parade, and he came back in and we were discussing some facts about how fast it passed and the police unit in it, and we had seen the chief's car in it, and how mrs. kennedy was dressed, and we were sitting in the office when a lady by the name of kemmey, i believe is the way she spelled it, came in and said that the president had been shot at main and lamar. our first reaction was one of disbelief, but a minute later--she just made the statement and walked out--and a minute later captain westbrook said, "she wasn't kidding." and i said, "when she you mean?" and he said, "when she is kidding, she can't keep a straight face." and figuring it was true, the dispatcher's office would be packed to the gills, so i walked down to the far end of the hall on the third floor where there is an intercom box connected to the radio from the dispatcher's office, and also you can hear the field side of the intercom of anything that is said to the police radio, and this is down in the press room. i stood there for a minute and i heard a voice which i am almost sure was inspector sawyer--but being i didn't see a broadcast, i couldn't say for sure--saying we think we have located the building where the shots were fired from at elm and houston streets, and send us some help. at this time i went back to the personnel office and told the captain that inspector sawyer requested assistance at elm and houston streets. the captain said, "go ahead and go." and he turned to another man in the office named joe fields and told him to get on down there. i got on the elevator on the third floor and went to the basement and saw a uniformed officer named jim m. valentine, and i asked jim what he was doing, and he said, "nothing in particular." and i said, "i need you to take me down to elm street." "the president has been shot." we started out of the basement to get in his car, and a boy named jim e. well, with the dallas morning news, had parked his car in the basement and was walking up and asked what was going on, and we told him the president was shot. and he said, "where are you going?" and we said, "down to elm and houston where they think the shots came from." and he said, "could i go with you?" so we took him in the back seat of the car. and i don't remember what the number was. we came out of the basement on commerce, went to central, turned left, went over on elm, ran into a traffic jam on elm, went down as far as pearl street and turned back to the left on pearl and went to jackson street, went west on jackson to houston street, and turned back to the right and pulled up in front of the book depository at elm and houston, jumped out of the car and inspector sawyer was there. i asked him did he have enough men outside to cover the building properly, and he said, "yes; i believe so." and i said, "are you ready for us to go in and shake it down?" and he said, "yes, let's go in and check it out." about this time captain fritz and two or three more detectives from homicide, a boy named roy westphal, who works for the special service bureau, and a couple of uniformed officers, and a couple of deputy sheriffs came up. now you identified them to me the other day, the two boys that were on the sixth floor from the sheriff's office. mr. belin. i think when we chatted briefly the other day, i believe i said boone and mooney. does that sound familiar? mr. hill. i wouldn't know, but i know they identified themselves to us as deputy sheriffs, and some more people knew them. so we went into the building, and captain fritz and his men said they would start at the first floor and work up, and they asked several of us to go to the top floor and work down. we went up to the seventh floor on the elevator and i believe the elevator ran to the sixth, and we cut around the stairway and got to seven and shook it down. at this time there were the two deputy sheriffs and i and one uniformed officer up there. mr. belin. you went to the top floor of the building? mr. hill. right. mr. belin. do you know whether or not the elevator went all the way up, or did you climb? mr. hill. i think we climbed a flight of stairs. in fact, i am almost sure. mr. belin. do you think you climbed a flight of stairs because the elevator went no further? mr. hill. i think it either went to fifth or sixth, but i am almost positive it didn't go to seventh. i may be wrong, but i didn't particularly take notice. but i think they told us we were going to have to walk up a couple of flights because the elevator didn't go all the way. mr. belin. where did you take this elevator? mr. hill. walked in the front door of the book depository and turned to the right. took the passenger elevator. we did not take the freight elevator. the freight elevator goes all the way, i believe. mr. belin. you took a passenger elevator? mr. hill. yes. mr. belin. when you got off the passenger elevator, what did you do? mr. hill. we asked them where the stairway was to the top floor, and if this was on the fifth, we walked through--there is a little office section near the elevator. we walked over past it and through a large room to the stairway, and then went all the way as high as the stairway would take us, which would have been on seven. in the middle of the floor on the seventh floor there was a ladder leading up into an area they called the penthouse, which was used mainly for storage. westphal went up this ladder, i know, and the uniformed officer went up it. the rest of us were checking around the boxes and books. so on file we verified that there was not anyone on the seventh floor, and we didn't find any indication that the shots had been fired from there. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. hill. left the uniformed officer there, and these two deputies and i went down to sixth. i started to the right side of the building. mr. belin. when you say the right side, you mean---- mr. hill. well, it would have been the west side. mr. belin. all right, they moved over to the east side? mr. hill. we hadn't been there but a minute until someone yelled, "here it is," or words to that effect. i moved over and found they had found an area where the boxes had been stacked in sort of a triangle shape with three sides over near the window. two small boxes with roller books on the side of the carton were stacked near the east side of the window. mr. belin. let's talk about which window now, sir. first of all, what side of the building? was it on the north, east, south, or west? mr. hill. it would have been on the south side near the east wall. it would have been the window on the southeast corner of the building facing south. mr. belin. would it have been the first window next to the east wall or the second window, or what, if you remember? mr. hill. as near as i can remember, it was the first window next to the east wall, but here again it is--i stayed up there such a short time that--yes, that is the one i am going to have to say it was, because as near as i can remember, that is the one it was. mr. belin. what did you see over there? mr. hill. there was the boxes. the boxes were stacked in sort of a three-sided shield. that would have concealed from general view, unless somebody specifically walked up and looked over them, anyone who was in a sitting or crouched position between them and the window. in front of this window and to the left or east corner of the window, there were two boxes, cardboard boxes that had the words "roller books," on them. on top of the larger stack of boxes that would have been used for concealment, there was a chicken leg bone and a paper sack which appeared to have been about the size normally used for a lunch sack. i wouldn't know what the sizes were. it was a sack, i would say extended, it would probably be inches high, inches long, and about inches thick. then, on the floor near the baseboard or against the baseboard of the south wall of the building, in front of the second window, in front of the, well, we would have to say second window from the east corner, were three spent shells. this is actually the jacket that holds the powder and not the slug. at this point, i asked the deputy sheriff to guard the scene, not to let anybody touch anything, and i went over still further west to another window about the middle of the building on the south side and yelled down to the street for them to send us the crime lab. not knowing or not getting any indication from the street that they heard me, i asked the deputies again to guard the scene and i would go down and make sure that the crime lab was en route. when i got toward the back, at this time i heard the freight elevator moving, and i went back to the back of the building to either catch the freight elevator or the stairs, and captain fritz and his men were coming up on the elevator. i told him what we found and pointed out the general area, pointed out the deputies to them, and told him also that i was going to make sure the crime lab was en route. about the time i got to the street, lieutenant day from the crime lab was arriving and walking up toward the front door. i told him that the area we had found where the shots were fired from was on the sixth floor on the southeast corner, and that they were guarding the scene so nobody would touch anything until he got there. and he said, "all right." and he went on into the building, and i went over to tell inspector sawyer, who was standing almost directly in front of the building across the little service drive there at what would actually be elm and houston. about this time i saw a firetruck come up, but i didn't pay any attention. i was talking to inspector sawyer, telling him what we found, when sgt. c. b. owens of oak cliff--he was the senior sergeant out there that day, and actually acting lieutenant--came up and wanted to know what we wanted him to do, being that he had been dispatched to the scene. mr. belin. let me stop you right there. who dispatched him to the scene? mr. hill. apparently the dispatcher. now his call number that day could have been . mr. belin. okay, go ahead, sergeant hill. mr. hill. we were standing there with inspector sawyer and assistant district attorney bill alexander came up to us, and we had been standing there for a minute when we heard the strange voice on the police radio that said something to the effect that, if i remember right, either the first call that came out said that they were in the block of east jefferson, and that an officer had been shot, and the voice on the radio, whoever it was, said he thought he was dead. at this point sergeant owens said something to the effect that this would have been one of his men. and prior, on our way to the location from the city hall, a description had been broadcast of a possible suspect in the assassination. with the description, as i remember, it was a white male, ' ", pounds, wearing a jacket, a light shirt, dark trousers, and sort of bushy brown hair. captain sawyer said, "well, as much help as we have here, why don't you go with sergeant owens to oak cliff on that detail." and bill alexander said, "well, if it is all right, i will go with you." and the reporter, jim ewell, came up, and i said an officer had been shot in oak cliff, and he wanted to go with us also. in the process of getting the location straight, and i think it was at this point i was probably using call number, because i was riding with him, we got the information correctly that the shooting had actually been on east th, and we were en route there. we crossed the commerce street viaduct and turned, made a right turn to go under the viaduct on north beckley to go up to th street. as we passed, just before we got to colorado on beckley, an ambulance with a police car behind it passed us en route to methodist hospital. we went on to the scene of the shooting where we found a squad car parked against the right or the south curb on th street, with a pool of blood on the left-hand side of it near the side of the car. tippit had already been removed. the first man that came up to me, he said, "the man that shot him was a white male about ' ", weighing to pounds, had on a jacket and a pair of dark trousers, and brown bushy hair." at this point the first squad rolled up, and that would have been squad , which had been dispatched from downtown. an officer named joe poe, and i believe his partner was a boy named jez. i told him to stay at the scene and guard the car and talk to as many witnesses as they could find to the incident, and that we were going to start checking the area. mr. belin. now, let me interrupt you here, sergeant. do you remember the name of the person that gave you the description? mr. hill. no. i turned him over to poe, and i didn't even get his name. mr. belin. had anyone at anytime given you any cartridge cases of any kind? mr. hill. no; they had not. this came much later. mr. belin. go ahead if you would, please. mr. hill. all right, i took the key to poe's car. another person came up, and we also referred him to poe, that told us the man had run over into the funeral home parking lot. that would be dudley hughes' parking lot in the block of east jefferson--and taken off his jacket. mr. belin. you turned this man over to poe, too? mr. hill. yes, sir. mr. belin. i notice in the radio log transcript, which is marked sawyer deposition exhibit a, that at : p.m., between : p.m., and : p.m., there was a call from no. to . is your home number, i believe? your radio home station? mr. hill. yes. mr. belin. that says, "one of the men here at the service station that saw him seems to think he is in this block, block east jefferson, behind his service station. give me some more squads over here." "several squads check out." was that you? mr. hill. that was owens. mr. belin. were you calling in at all? mr. hill. no. that is bud owens. mr. belin. you had left owens' car at this time? mr. hill. i left owens' car and had car at this time. mr. belin. where did you go? mr. hill. at this time, about the time this broadcast came out, i went around and met owens. i whipped around the block. i went down to the first intersection east of the block where all this incident occurred, and made a right turn, and traveled one block, and came back up on jefferson. mr. belin. all right. mr. hill. and met owens in front of two large vacant houses on the north side of jefferson that are used for the storage of secondhand furniture. by then owens had information also that some citizen had seen the man running towards these houses. at this time sergeant owens was there; i was there; bill alexander was there; it was probably about this time that c. t. walker, an accident investigator got there; and with sergeant owens and walker and a couple more officers standing outside, bill alexander and i entered the front door of the house that would have been to the west--it was the farthest to the west of the two--shook out the lower floor, made sure nobody was there, and made sure that all the entrances from either inside or outside of the building to the second floor were securely locked. then we went back over to the house next door, which would have been the first one east of this one, and made sure it was securely locked, both upstairs and downstairs. there was no particular sign of entry on this building at all. at this point we came back out to the street, and i asked had owens received any information from the hospital on tippit. and he said they had just told him on channel that he was dead. i got back in 's car, went back around to the original scene, gave him his car keys back, and left his car there, and at this point he came up to me with a winston cigarette package. mr. belin. who was this? mr. hill. this was poe. mr. belin. you went back to the tippit scene? mr. hill. right. mr. belin. you went back to east th street? mr. hill. right. and poe showed me a winston cigarette package that contained three spent jackets from shells that he said a citizen had pointed out to him where the suspect had reloaded his gun and dropped these in the grass, and that the citizen had picked them up and put them in the winston package. i told poe to maintain the chain of evidence as small as possible, for him to retain these at that time, and to be sure and mark them for evidence, and then turn them over to the crime lab when he got there, or to homicide. the next place i went was, i walked up the street about half a block to a church. that would have been on the northeast corner of th street in the block, further west of the shooting, and was preparing to go in when there were two women who came out and said they were employees inside and had been there all the time. i asked them had they seen anybody enter the church, because we were still looking for possible places for the suspect to hide. and they said nobody passed them, nobody entered the church, but they invited us to check the rest of the doors and windows and go inside if we wanted to. an accident investigator named bob apple was at the location at that time, and we were standing there together near his car when the call came out that the suspect had been seen entering the texas theatre. mr. belin. what did you do then? mr. hill. we both got in apple's car and went to jefferson, made a right on jefferson, headed west from our location, and pulled up as close to the front of the theatre as we could. there were already two or three officers at the location. i asked if it was covered off at the back. they said, "we got the building completely covered off." i entered the right or the east most door to the south side of the theatre, and in the process or in the meantime, from the time we heard the first call to the time we got to the theatre, the call came on over the radio that the suspect was believed to be in the balcony. we went up to the balcony, ran up the stairs, which would have been also on the east side. and the picture was still on. i remember yelling to either the manager or the assistant manager or an employee, maybe just an usher, to turn on as many lights as they could. went up to the balcony, and detective bentley was up there, and a uniform officer, and here again there was another deputy sheriff. he was a uniform man. there were some six people in the balcony, and we checked them out and none of them appeared to fit the physical description that we had of the man that shot tippit. i went over and opened the fire escape door or fire exit door and stepped out on the fire escape, and capt. c. e. talbert was down on the ground. he said, "did you find anything?" and i said, "not up here." he said, "have you checked the roof?" there was a ladder leading from the fire escape that goes on up to the top of the roof, and the deputy sheriff said, "i will get that for you." and he started up it. the captain said words to the effect that, "make sure you don't overlook him in there." so we went back inside and we didn't find him in the balcony. we started downstairs and these would have been the west stairs on the west side of the balcony. about the time i got to the lower floor, i heard a shout similar to a "i've got him," which came from the lower floor. and i ran through the west door from the lobby into the downstairs part of the theatre proper. mr. belin. let me stop you right there. when you say it is the west door, as i remember this theatre, the entrance faces to the south, is that correct? mr. hill. right. mr. belin. but then when you walked in, you walked in straight headed north, and then you had to turn to the right? mr. hill. so once you turned, i went up. that would have made me come down the north, go up the south stairway to the balcony, and come down the north stairway. mr. belin. all right. now, you got down to the first floor. as you go in to face the screen, the right side of the theatre when you are facing the screen, you are facing roughly east? mr. hill. right side of the theatre would have been south. mr. belin. south as you face the screen. all right, now. mr. hill. so i went through the north lower door. mr. belin. all right. mr. hill. came down the north stairway, and the commotion would have been to my right or just south of the center of the theatre near the back. went over, and as i ran to them i saw some officers struggling with a white male. i reached out and grabbed the left arm of the suspect, and just before i got to him i heard somebody yell, "look out, he's got a gun." i was on the same row with the suspect. the man on the row immediately behind him was an officer named hutson. mcdonald was on the other side of the suspect from me in the same aisle. two officers, c. t. walker and ray hawkins, were in the row in front of us holding the suspect from the front and forcing him backwards and down into the seat. and to mcdonald's right reaching over, and i don't recall which row he was on, was an officer named bob carroll. and then paul bentley and k. e. lyons, who was carroll's partner, they were both in the special service bureau, also was there. they came up at various intervals while all this was going on. we finally got the man subdued to the point where we had control of him and his legs pinned and his arms pinned. i said, "let's handcuff him." and being that i was working in plainclothes and working in personnel, didn't have a pair of handcuffs, and i asked hawkins if he had. and he said, "yes." and i said, "let's get them." and hawkins and i handcuffed him while the others held him. mr. belin. you said you were working in plainclothes? mr. hill. yes. mr. belin. did you have any hat on? mr. hill. yes; i did have a hat. mr. belin. i want to hand you what i will mark as g. l. hill deposition exhibit a, and ask you to state if you know what this is. mr. hill. yes, sir; this is a picture that was made about the time when we were actually putting the handcuffs on the suspect in the theatre. that may have been a split second before or a split second after, or right as we completed the putting on of the handcuffs. mr. belin. do you recognize any people in there? mr. hill. this would have been the suspect [pointing]. mr. belin. now, the suspect is a man who you can see parts of the profile from the left side of his face. he appears to be seated or lower than the others? mr. hill. lower than the other people in the picture. mr. belin. then there is a person with a hat on to the right. mr. hill. to the immediate right of the suspect, and that is me. mr. belin. then there is a man with a cigar who is looking over the suspect? mr. hill. that is detective paul bentley. mr. belin. now there is a person with light-colored hair that appears to have his hands---- mr. hill. that would be c. t. walker. mr. belin. then there is another person that is in the extreme left-foreground part of the picture. do you know who that is? mr. hill. capt. w. r. westbrook. mr. belin. then a party with a hat on. do you know who that is? mr. hill. i have no idea. mr. belin. that is to the left? mr. hill. no, sir. mr. belin. then there is, you can barely see maybe a police hat. is that anything you can recognize? mr. hill. not from that; no, sir. mr. belin. all right, go ahead, sir. you say that you and ray hawkins handcuffed the suspect? mr. hill. at about this time captain westbrook and a man who was later in the day identified to me as, i believe his name was barnett, an fbi agent---- mr. belin. would it be barrett? mr. hill. yes. mr. belin. do you remember his first name? mr. hill. bob was identified to me later in the day by captain westbrook. came in from, i presume they came in from the north fire exit, which would have actually been coming in from outside, and came over to us, and captain westbrook instructed us to get the man out of there as soon as possible. and at the same time instructed some of the other uniform officers to stay there and protect the scene, and call the crime lab. this was the actual scene where the arrest was made. mr. belin. let me stop you right there. do you know how this fbi agent happened to be there at the time? mr. hill. i heard later, and--but not actually to my own knowledge, that he was riding with captain westbrook. to my knowledge, i don't know this, but i understand he had ridden out from town with captain westbrook, that he was gravitating toward the incident in oak cliff, and had arrived at the theatre just possibly before we came in, or right after we went in, and was still outside. mr. belin. all right. mr. hill. we started moving the suspect down the aisle, which would have been walking him north to the exit on that side until we got to the aisle that would have been dividing the center section and the north section of the theatre. and there we formed a more or less wedge formation with c. t. walker in front, bob carroll, i believe was on the suspect's left, k. e. lyons was on his right, and paul bentley and i were to the rear. i was on the left. i would have been to the suspect's left-rear side. paul bentley would have been to the right-rear side. at this point this is the first time i remember encountering any newspapermen or cameras, but as we walked into the lobby there was a man shooting movies. mr. belin. movies? mr. hill. he was from channel , but who he was, i don't know. he was a short, rather heavy-set fellow with kinky hair. this i remember about him. we walked the suspect out the right front or the north door. no, wait a minute, we have lost our directions again. we walked him out the west door of the theatre into a squad car, which was out front. some of the officers that were still outside had the crowd parted back to where nobody got to us or to the suspect. but there were shouts at this time from the crowd of, "that is him. we ought to kill him. string him up. hang him.", et cetera and so on. mr. belin. any other calls from the crowd? mr. hill. not that i can recall. there was quite a bit of confusion, but we kept moving. mr. belin. let me stop you right there. you mentioned that when you were coming down from the balcony to the first floor, or in the process of going into the first floor, you heard an officer or someone yell something along the effect, "i've got him." mr. hill. right. mr. belin. did you hear anyone else yell or make any other statements? first, i will ask you this. did you hear the suspect make any statement of any kind? mr. hill. not any distinguishable statement that i can specifically recall. later in the course of trying to piece this thing together for a report, i believe it was mcdonald and hutson that stated, and we put it in the report that way, that the suspect yelled, "this is it." mr. belin. did you hear that with your own ears? that you can remember? mr. hill. no, sir; not as a distinguishable specific "this is it," no. as much confusion and all going on, i didn't distinguish that. now if we can back up a little bit to where we made the, got him handcuffed in the theatre, before we started moving out with him, he started, oswald or the suspect at this point, we didn't know who he was, so we will keep on calling him the suspect, started making statements about "i want a lawyer. i know my rights. typical police brutality. why are you doing this to me." as as we continued to move him down the aisle out to the aisle dividing the two sections, out into the lobby of the theatre, he began yelling words similar to, "typical police brutality." and once we got actually outside the door of the theatre, from there to the period of time that we got to the car, with all the crowd and commotion and all, i don't recall any further statements of his until we got in the car. mr. belin. all right, let me stop there before you testify about getting into the car. do you have anything else to add to the statement prior to getting into the car? mr. hill. not that i can recall. mr. belin. did you hear the suspect say anything while you were trying to subdue him, or, "i am not resisting arrest?" mr. hill. no; i don't recall a statement to that effect. mr. belin. did you hear any officer say anything to the suspect? mr. hill. about the time we got him subdued and handcuffed, i know that hutson asked me about did i hear the gun click. hutson was the one that was behind him and was pulling him backward, off balance. he was probably, as near as i could determine from the position, was probably the second officer to him. in other words, mcdonald made the initial contact, and then hutson and then probably walker and hawkins with walker, and then hawkins, in that order, getting into the scuffle attempting to subdue him and keep him from using the gun. mr. belin. what did you reply to this question? mr. hill. i told him no. because apparently this had happened in the interim from the time of the first yell until i got there, and with the scuffling of feet, unless you would be right at it, i don't know that you would hear it. mr. belin. did you hit the suspect at all? mr. hill. no; i did not. mr. belin. did anyone else hit the suspect? mr. hill. no one that i know of. when we got him subdued, he had a small laceration on the left eyebrow, and what appeared to be a bruise on the upper-left eyebrow and down along his check, but an actual lick, to see this done, i did not see. mr. belin. did you hear any police officer make any remark such as "kill a policeman, will you," or something along that line? mr. hill. no, sir; not at this point i didn't. there was a--you want---- mr. belin. let's stop there before we get in the car. mr. hill. there were some statements made in the car similar to this, in talking about killing a policeman, but i didn't hear any at the time in the theatre or from the theatre to the car. mr. belin. i want to try to cut off this thing in segments. did you hear any policeman make any other statements to him during this scuffle? mr. hill. no; everybody was saying, "look out," and "get this arm," or "watch that leg," or "make sure you've got a good hold on him." but as far as any direct quotes to the suspect, or him being called anything such as a cop killer or statements that you have killed a police officer, you have killed a cop, or anything of that type, i did not hear any. mr. belin. did you see the suspect hitting any police officer? mr. hill. did i see the suspect hitting a police officer? mr. belin. yes. mr. hill. no, sir; i did not. i saw his left arm flying about wildly about the time when i got there. that is what i latched on to, but i didn't actually identify any direct blows. mr. belin. did you see any movements of the suspect other than the left arm flailing? mr. hill. he was fighting and turning and making an attempt to free himself of the hold that the officers had on him. as to actually hitting anybody or to actually seeing the suspect with a gun in his hand, i did not. mr. belin. i hand you what has been marked as "g. l. hill deposition exhibit b." state if you know what this is. mr. hill. this is known to be a picture that was made still inside the theatre as we were moving down the aisle, i believe, to get him to the aisle that divided the two sections. now specifically, the exact point in the theatre where this was made, i don't know. mr. belin. do you recognize anything? mr. hill. there are three people in this picture that i recognize. the officer with the white uniform hat on that is in the foreground looking at the picture, would be to the left side, is c. t. walker. the suspect, and what is an open collar, and what appears to be a t-shirt from here, looking almost directly at the camera with his face practically covered by the officer's cap, is a man later identified to us as lee harvey oswald. and the man in the suit looking at the camera with a cigar in his mouth is detective paul bentley. there is, to mr. bentley's left, part of another officer that is apparently wearing a suit with only part of his suit and his shirt and his left hand showing. that cannot be recognized, but i will have to admit i think it is me. and there is a faint image there, if you get the light--that is what i am trying to see--very faintly--if we had a--yes, that is going to be me. what we need is to get the light in at an angle. mr. belin. if you hold it a little bit to your right? mr. hill. yes; that is going to be me. mr. belin. do you know who this person is with the helmet at the extreme left of the person with the helmet? mr. hill. i do not recognize him specifically, but just trying to identify that much of him, i would say it could be an officer named l. e. gray, but i can't make positive identification. mr. belin. okay, sergeant. by the way, what is the suspect wearing? you mentioned a t-shirt in the picture. do you remember what else he had on? mr. hill. he had on a dark--i don't recall it being a solid brown--shirt, but it was a dark-brownish-looking sports shirt, and dark trousers. this i specifically remember. mr. belin. any jacket? mr. hill. no, sir; he didn't have a jacket on at this time. mr. belin. all right, go ahead. mr. hill. i understand a light-colored jacket was found in the parking lot of the funeral home, as a man had previously stated, but i don't recall actually seeing this jacket. mr. belin. all right, anything else that anyone else said prior to the time you got to the car? mr. hill. not that i can recall, sir; other than, as i was saying, as we went out, the crowd was jeering, making some threats and calling out things. if at this time the suspect said anything, i didn't hear him. and we were moving quite rapidly to get him into the car. mr. belin. handing you what has been marked "g. l. hill exhibit c," i will ask you to state if you know what this is? mr. hill. this is a picture of the texas theatre on west jefferson, and it is a picture that i believe was made after we left the location with the suspect. mr. belin. why do you say that? mr. hill. because the car that we left with the suspect in was parked right here. mr. belin. you are pointing to a position ahead of the dallas police car no. , which appears in the picture? mr. hill. that's right. mr. belin. would that be about the size of the crowd that was there, as you remember it? mr. hill. the crowd was split up into two groups at that time, on each side of the theatre entrance. mr. belin. you mean by the time you brought the suspect out? mr. hill. yes; the area immediately in front of the theatre looking to the car was open at the time. mr. belin. who opened it? mr. hill. the crowd had been kept back by some officers who had been left outside to cover off the front of the theatre when the rest of us entered. mr. belin. apart from the fact that the crowd was split when you led the suspect out, does this appear to be about the number of people there? mr. hill. no, sir. i would say probably this picture appears to me to contain to people, and i would say probably at the time that we came out of the theatre, by just glancing on both sides as we moved between the two groups to the car, i would estimate the crowd was probably about . mr. belin. all right; anything else up to the time you got to the car that anyone said or did that you haven't related, that you can remember now? mr. hill. not that i can recall, sir. mr. belin. all right; now, let's pick up what happened from the time you started, with the time you opened the doors of the car to put the suspect in the car. mr. hill. officer bentley--the suspect was put in the right rear door of the squad car and was instructed to move over to the middle. c. t. walker got into the rear seat and would have been sitting on the right rear. paul bentley went around the car and got in the left rear door and sat on that side. mr. belin. that would have been from the left to the right, bentley, oswald, and walker? or bentley, the suspect, and walker? mr. hill. k. e. lyons got in the right front. i entered the door from the driver's side and got in the middle of the front seat. mr. belin. and being that he had the keys to the car, bob carroll drove the vehicle. mr. hill. as he started to get in the car, he handed me a pistol, which he identified as the one that had been taken from the suspect in the theatre. mr. belin. when did he identify this to you? mr. hill. i asked him was this his. he said, "no, it is the suspect's" mr. belin. when did he do that? mr. hill. as soon as he handed it to me. mr. belin. when was that? mr. hill. right as i sat down in the car, he apparently had it in his belt, and as he started to sit down, he handed it to me. i was already in the car and seated. mr. belin. now i am going to hand you what has been marked commission exhibit . would you state if you know what this is? mr. hill. this is a . caliber revolver. smith & wesson, with a " barrel that would contain six shells. it is an older gun that has been blue steeled, and has a worn wooden handle. mr. belin. have you ever seen this gun before? mr. hill. i am trying to see my mark on it to make sure, sir. i don't recall specifically where i marked it, but i did mark it, if this is the one. i don't remember where i did mark it, now. here it is, hill right here, right in this crack. mr. belin. officer, you have just pointed out a place which i will identify as a metal portion running along the butt of the gun. can you describe it any more fully? mr. hill. it would be to the inside of the pistol grip holding the gun in the air. it would begin under the trigger guard to where the last name h-i-l-l is scratched in the metal. mr. belin. who put that name in there? mr. hill. i did. mr. belin. when did you do that? mr. hill. this was done at approximately p.m., the afternoon of friday, november , , in the personnel office of the police department. mr. belin. did you keep that gun in your possession until you scratched your name on it? mr. hill. yes, sir; i did. mr. belin. was this gun the gun that officer carroll handed to you? mr. hill. and identified to me as the suspect's weapon. mr. belin. this is what has now been marked as commission exhibit , is that correct? mr. hill. yes, sir; that is what it says. mr. belin. it also says the number on this sack in kind of a red ink or something "c " on it, too, is that right? mr. hill. it has c , and on the other side it has -g, whatever that is. mr. belin. and then we have marked commission exhibit ? mr. hill. right. mr. belin. now, you said as the driver of the car, bob carroll, got in the car, he handed this gun to you? mr. hill. right, sir. mr. belin. all right, then, would you tell us what happened? what was said and what was done? mr. hill. then i broke the gun open to see how many shells it contained and how many live rounds it had in it. mr. belin. how many did you find? mr. hill. there were six in the chambers of the gun. one of them had an indention in the primer that appeared to be caused by the hammer. there were five others. all of the shells at this time had indentions. all of the shells appeared to have at one time or another scotch tape on them because in an area that would have been the width of a half inch strip of scotch tape, there was kind of a bit of lint and residue on the jacket of the shell. mr. belin. did you ever mark those? mr. hill. i can say that i marked all six of them. mr. belin. i am first going to hand you what has been marked q- on the lead portion. it is or . it appears to be q- , with the initials jh running together and ck, and then another initial r, with a dash behind it. do you see any identification mark of yours on there at all? mr. hill. yes, sir; on the side of the jacket of the bullet there is the name scratched h-i-l-l, and also the initials bc. i scratched the h-i-l-l on this shell, and bob carroll scratched the bc on it in my presence in the personnel office of the police department on the third floor. mr. belin. what is that? mr. hill. this is one of the shells which is a . special shell that was removed from the suspect's weapon, removed from the weapon that was taken from the suspect at the time of his arrest. mr. belin. when was it removed? mr. hill. they were not taken out of the gun, as i recall, sir, until we arrived at the station. mr. belin. who took it out of the gun? mr. hill. i took it out of the gun. mr. belin. did you keep it in your possession until you put on your initials? mr. hill. all six shells remained in my possession until i initialed them. mr. belin. was this an empty shell or live bullet? mr. hill. that is a live round. mr. belin. for what caliber? mr. hill. a . caliber. mr. belin. i am going to hand you another bullet which has been marked q- . mr. hill. that appears to be q- . it's also on the what appears to be the copper tip has the initial jh running together, the initials ck on it also. it is a western . special bullet. it has not been fired. it is a copper-colored slug. on the case of this shell is also the name h-i-l-l, which was placed there on november . mr. belin. let the record show that i believe that these are exhibit , but i am not sure. i mean commission exhibit , and therefore, i identified them by the "q" number which is on the bullet itself. was this also something that you took out? mr. hill. this would have been another of the shells, and the gun. mr. belin. i hand you four more bullets which have been marked as, i believe they are commission exhibit , but again i will withhold that identification. i see the markings on this--let me see if i can see some "q" numbers. i see one q- . do you see that, sergeant? mr. hill. now that i know where to look, i can find it. it is going to be q- . it has the initials ck. that is distinguishable on it. it has two x's near the identification number that are legible. and it has other markings that is r something or "r-" that is apparently on some of the others. mr. belin. do you see your name on that? mr. hill. my name is also on this, on the metal jacket portion of the shell. mr. belin. what kind of bullet is that? mr. hill. this is another western . special with a copper-colored coating on the lead inside the bullet. mr. belin. handing you q- . mr. hill. this is a . caliber western shell with the identification mark q- , with the other markings of jh and ck on it, and also on the shell casing near the rear of the bullet is the name h-i-l-l, with which i marked it. mr. belin. handing you q- . mr. hill. okay. this is an r.-p. . shell with the identification number q- . the initials ck and jh near the "q" number on the jacket of this one. also is the name h-i-l-l scratched into the metal, which i placed on it. and this one also is a plain lead shell. mr. belin. handing you q- , do you see q- , on there? mr. hill. this is an r and p shell with the identification number q- , with the initials ck and jh scratched near the "q" number. on the side of this shell also is the word h-i-l-l, which was placed on this shell by me. this is a . lead slug. mr. belin. what is the fact as to whether or not all of these slugs were removed from this gun which has been marked as exhibit ? what is the fact as to whether or not all of those six were removed? mr. hill. all six of the slugs that were identified immediately previous to this point were removed from the gun, identified as commission exhibit , by me. mr. belin. what is the fact as to whether or not from the time this gun was handed to you until the time you removed these six bullets, this gun was in your possession? mr. hill. the gun remained in my possession until it, from the time it was given to me until the gun was marked and all the shells were marked. they remained in my personal possession. after they were marked, they were released by me to detective t. l. baker of the homicide bureau. he came to the personnel office and requested that they be given to him, and i marked them and turned them over to him at this point. mr. belin. all right, now, i want to return to the car, sergeant hill. you stated that this gun was handed to you by---- mr. hill. detective bob carroll. mr. belin. detective bob carroll when he got in? mr. hill. yes. mr. belin. all right. after he handed you--handed the gun to you, will you tell us what happened inside the car, or whether anyone made any remarks? and if you can, what happened in the car? mr. hill. we mostly got the car in motion, traveled to the first corner where we could make a right turn, made a right turn, traveled one block, made another right turn, continued down this street, and at this point we would have been going east until we reached zangs boulevard, and turned left onto zangs. within, i would say seconds--this is just a guess--after we got in the car, i picked up the radio and used the call number , car , which no. is the number assigned to the personnel office, and because i knew the captain was out in the field and he would be using , if he got on the radio. i used call , car , and made the statement, "we have suspect and weapon and are en route to the station." mr. belin. now i want to hand you what has been marked sawyer deposition exhibit a, which is the transcript of the police log, and i notice that at : p.m., there was a - - , with the notation, "suspect on shooting of police officer is apprehended en route to the station." was that---- mr. hill. well, that would have generally been--that would have been---- mr. belin. would have been you? mr. hill. that would have been me. mr. belin. it is marked "westbrook-batchelor." is that because of the no. on it? mr. hill. yes. possibly batchelor's call is , and westbrook's is , so apparently they showed westbrook was talking to chief batchelor, which at this point---- mr. belin. someone else put this handwriting in. that is, "westbrook-batchelor," but is that the time that you called in? mr. hill. yes, sir; i don't remember the exact words, but i did get on the radio as soon as we got to the car and it got moving, notifying that we were en route to the station with the suspect. that would have been possibly right. mr. belin. it goes on to say, "from the texas theatre." and, "caught him on the lower floor of the texas theatre after a fight." did you say that? mr. hill. this would have been the dispatcher to me asking the question did we have him in the texas theatre. was that where we arrested him? mr. belin. that is - - ? mr. hill. in other words, it is dispatcher to car . mr. belin. all right. mr. hill. and he was finding out for sure if we had arrested him at the theatre. mr. belin. then it goes to . mr. hill. car would have been my answer to the dispatcher. mr. belin. it says, "caught him on the lower floor of the texas theatre after a fight." and then - - . mr. hill. that would have been the dispatcher talking to---- mr. belin. someone? mr. hill. chief batchelor and chief stevenson. mr. belin. two and three? mr. hill. then again would have been the dispatcher advising , which is a homicide unit that the apprehension had been made. and then the car , to would have been me telling him that we had , who was walker--that is walker's call number, and , which was carroll, and lyons' call number in the car with me. and we later had to make arrangements for somebody to go back and pick up car and take it back. mr. belin. that last call then was made at : p.m., in which you advised who was in the car? mr. hill. with us en route to the station. mr. belin. and the first one that you made after you got to the car was at : p.m.? mr hill. yes, sir. mr. belin. now, also turning to sawyer deposition exhibit a, i notice that there is another call on car no. - . was that you at that time, or not, at : p.m.? would that have been someone else? mr. hill. that probably is r. d. stringer. mr. belin. that is not you, then, even though it has a number - ? mr. hill. yes; because stringer quite probably would have been using the same call number, because it is more his than it was mine, really, but i didn't have an assigned call number, so i was using a number i didn't think anybody would be using, which is call - , instead of the westbrook to batchelor as it indicates here. mr. belin. now after, from the time you started in motion until the time you called in, do you remember anyone saying anything at all in the car? mr. hill. the suspect was asked what his name was. mr. belin. what did he say? mr. hill. he never did answer. he just sat there. mr. belin. was he asked where he lived? mr. hill. that was the second question that was asked the suspect, and he didn't answer it, either. about the time i got through with the radio transmission, i asked paul bentley, "why don't you see if he has any identification." paul was sitting sort of sideways in the seat, and with his right hand he reached down and felt of the suspect's left hip pocket and said, "yes, he has a billfold," and took it out. i never did have the billfold in my possession, but the name lee oswald was called out by bentley from the back seat, and said this identification, i believe, was on the library card. and he also made the statement that there was some more identification in this other name which i don't remember, but it was the same name that later came in the paper that he bought the gun under. mr. belin. would the name hidell mean anything? alek hidell? mr. hill. that would be similar. i couldn't say specifically that is what it was, because this was a conversation and i never did see it written down, but that sounds like the name that i heard. mr. belin. was this the first time you learned of the name? mr. hill. yes; it was. mr. belin. all right; when did you learn of his address? mr. hill. there were two different addresses on the identification. one of them was in oak cliff. the other one was in irving. but as near as i can recall of the conversation in the car, this was strictly conversation, because i didn't read any of the stuff. it didn't have an address on beckley, that i recall hearing. mr. belin. let me ask you this. now from the time you got in the car to the time you got to the station, i believe you said that at least the second question asked was where do you live, and the man didn't answer? mr. hill. the man didn't answer. mr. belin. was he ever asked again where he lived, up to the time you got to the station? mr. hill. no; i don't believe so, because when bentley got the identification out, we had two different addresses. we had two different names, and the comment was made, "i guess we are going to have to wait until we get to the station to find out who he actually is." after about the time bentley reached in his pocket and got his billfold, the suspect made the statement, "i don't know why you are treating me like this. the only thing i have done is carry a pistol in a movie." then there was a remark made something to the effect, "yes, sir; you have done a lot more. you have killed a policeman." and then the suspect made a remark similar to "well, you fry for that," or something to that effect. mr. belin. something to what effect? mr. hill. well, now, he either made the statement, "you only fry for that," or "you can fry for that," or a similar statement. now the exact words of it, i don't recall. mr. belin. all right; then what was said? mr. hill. some more questions were asked as to where he had been prior to going to the movie, which he did not answer. some more questions were asked as to what was his true name, and in neither case did he ever answer them. he did make a comment, if i recall, about the handcuffs, about, "i don't see why you handcuffed me." and here again he repeated the statement, "the only crime i have committed was carrying a pistol in a movie." we got the suspect to the city hall as rapidly as possible without using the siren and red light, but we took advantage of every open spot we had to make a little speed, and we explained to him this--i did, before we got into the basement, that there would probably be some reporters and photographers and cameramen waiting in the basement when we got to the station, and that if he so desired, we would hold him in a way that he could hide his face if he wanted to, and also told him he did not have to speak to the press if he didn't want to. he didn't comment on this at this point, but as we pulled into the basement from the main street side, we were wanting to get out and get organized enough that we would set up our wedge again to get him in the station through the basement, and so we pulled over to what would have been the southeast side of the basement, got out of the car, and formed a wedge in the same position that we left the theatre, and told the suspect again he could hide his face if he wanted to. and he said, "why should i hide my face. i haven't done anything to be ashamed of." and with that we started walking him up the aisle of the basement and walked him through the door into the basement of the city hall proper, put him on the elevator, stayed on the elevator with him, put him back behind the wall, and sort of formed a wall around him. some of the press pushed into the elevator with us. got him out on the third floor, walked him into the homicide and robbery office, placed him in the first interrogation room inside the homicide and robbery office, and left officer walker there with him. at this point i stood in the door of the, or at the door of the room he was in. reporters wanted to see the pistol. i held it up to them but never relinquished control of it. i asked baker at this time, who was detective t. l. baker, if he wanted the pistol, and he said, "no; hold on to it until later." i explained to him that this was the suspect on tippit and did he want us to make up the arrest sheet, or would they make them up. we were trying to get together to decide who was going to make the offense report and get all the little technicalities out of the way when a detective named richard stovall and another one, g. f. rose, came up, and the four of us were standing when captain fritz walked in. he walked up to rose and stovall and made the statement to them, "go get a search warrant and go out to some address on fifth street," and i don't recall the actual street number, in irving, and "pick up a man named lee oswald." and i asked the captain why he wanted him, and he said, "well, he was employed down at the book depository and he had not been present for a roll call of the employees." and we said, "captain, we will save you a trip," or words to that effect, "because there he sits." and with that, we relinquished our prisoner to the homicide and robbery bureau, to captain fritz. walker, bentley, lyons, carroll, and i knew that the prisoner had received a laceration and bruises while effecting his arrest, and that an officer had been scratched while effecting the arrest, and that bentley had sprained an ankle, and lyons had sprained an ankle while effecting the arrest--they were fixing to have to make a whole bushel basket of reports--we adjourned to the personnel office, which was further down the hall from homicide and i sat down and started to try to organize the first report on the arrest. i originally had the heading on it, "injuries sustained by suspect while effecting his arrest in connection with the murder of officer j. d. tippit," and a few minutes later captain westbrook came in the office and said that our suspect had admitted being a communist. this is strictly hearsay. i did not hear it myself. he himself also said a few minutes later he had previously been in the marine corps, had a dishonorable discharge, had been to russia, and had had some trouble with the police in new orleans for passing out pro-castro literature. this still is all hearsay because i didn't actually hear it firsthand myself. and at about this point captain westbrook suggested that i change the heading of my report to include arrest of the suspect in the assassination of the president and in the murder of officer j. d. tippit, which i did. i originally wrote the report for bob carroll's signature and for my signature, and left it with the captain to be typed while we moved over in another office to get a cup of coffee and sort of calm down and recap the events. by then mcdonald was there, and we had added some information that he could give us such as the information about "this is it." which the suspect allegedly said as he came into contact with him. the exact location of the officers and who was there on the original arrest and everything, and we were waiting around for the secretary to finish the report. when we got it back ready to sign, carroll and i were sitting there, and it had captain westbrook's name for signature, and added a paragraph about he and the fbi agent being there, and not seeing that it made any difference, i went ahead and signed the report. actually, they were there, but i didn't make any corrections. and as far as the report, didn't allege what they did, but had added a paragraph to our report to include the fact that he was there, and also that the fbi agent was there. now as to why this was done, your guess is as good as mine. mr. belin. were they there at the time? mr. hill. they were there. they got there inside where we were about the time he was being handcuffed. mr. belin. all right, let me go back a minute now. you left the suspect in the custody of homicide? mr. hill. right. mr. belin. in what office was he left? mr. hill. he was still in the interrogation room and still in the homicide and robbery bureau office. mr. belin. who was in there with him when you left? mr. hill. when i left the office, captain fritz, who was the commander of the bureau was there, and i had assumed, being that he was the officer in charge, the highest ranking man there, and it was his bureau and his office, theoretically he was in possession of the prisoner. however, now as to specifically who went in and took him out of the interrogation room and took him to the captain's office, i don't know. mr. belin. was captain fritz in the interrogation office? mr. hill. captain fritz was in the hall. there was a little small hallway to the door here, and there is a hallway just big enough to pass through. the suspect was in the interrogation room and captain fritz immediately in front of him. mr. belin. was anyone else in the interrogation room when you left? mr. hill. no; walker was, and when we turned him over to homicide, walker came out and fritz and his people had control of the prisoner. mr. belin. so when you and walker left, the nearest office to him was fritz'? mr. hill. as far as i know; yes, sir. mr. belin. at any time up to the time you left, did you ever get any address on the suspect as to where he lived other than the statement of captain fritz that he had this address on fifth street somewhere in irving? mr. hill. paul bentley called off two addresses. one, as i recall, in irving, and another one in oak cliff, when he was reading from information inside the suspect's billfold. but neither of these addresses was an address on th or on beckley. as to exactly what they were, i don't recall, as i didn't see the identification. mr. belin. would one of them have been an address on neely street? mr. hill. it very possibly could be. in fact i believe it was. mr. belin. to the best of your knowledge, did anyone in the car in which you were riding down to the police station ever mention any beckley street address for the suspect? mr. hill. no. mr. belin. to the best of your knowledge, when the suspect was brought into the police station, up to the time you left him with captain fritz there, had anyone mentioned a beckley street address? mr. hill. no. mr. belin. what else did the suspect say, if anything? mr. hill. other than the statement he made about brutality in the theatre, and other than the statements he made in the car about "why are you treating me this way? the only thing i have done is carry a gun," and "why are you handcuffing me, the only thing i have done is carry a gun," and when the comment was made about something of killing an officer, and he said something to the extent that you can only fry for that, and the man showed absolutely no emotion. he gave the appearance of being arrogant, and yet he didn't make boastful statements. he was silent almost the entire time he was in the car except for the flareup of the brutality in the theatre, and the two statements or the three statements that he made in the car. he was silent almost the entire time until we got to the basement when he made the statement that he didn't know why he should hide his face, he didn't have anything to be ashamed of. mr. belin. when the comment was made about frying, did any police officer in the car say in substance, "maybe you will find out," or something like that? do you remember anything like that being said? mr. hill. there was probably a sarcastic remark to that made, but as to the exact words of it, "you will find out," or "you will get a chance to find out," but i am sure there was an answer to his question, and i don't recall who said it. but as near as i can remember, it came from the back seat. mr. belin. was there any reply by the suspect along the lines of "well, i understand it only takes a minute," or something like that? did you hear him say anything like that? mr. hill. i don't recall that statement. it could have been made, because there were about half a dozen conversations actually going on in the car. at one point after i opened the pistol, and i did open it in the car, and found that one of the slugs or one of the shells did have an indention to the primer that could have been caused by the hammer, we made a comment that he tried or he did pull the trigger, and this was in line with what hutson had asked me, in the theatre, had i heard the gun click. mr. belin. anything else that happened in the car? mr. hill. not that i can recall of specific detail. there was quite a bit of excitement. everybody had been in the little scuffle and were huffing and puffing, and especially me, as fat as i am, but there weren't any, i don't recall any more direct statements. there was nothing ever said in the car that i can recall that would have put it at this time. we didn't have enough to be sure that maybe the two were tied together. mr. belin. anything else about the demeanor of the witness at all? mr. hill. other than as i said, he gave the appearance of arrogance, but yet he did not talk boastfully. in fact, he talked very little. this was one of the things that stuck out most about him in my mind, was how quiet he did keep. his commenting or relating the statement that the only crime he had committed was carrying a gun in the theatre, and the refusal to answer questions as to what his name was and where he lived, this is not unusual immediately after an arrest, because when a man is arrested, he is keyed up too, and probably thinks that the best thing that they can do is keep their mouth shut, and he had previously in the theatre said he wanted his attorney. mr. belin. he had said this in the theatre? mr. hill. yes; when we arrested him, he wanted his lawyer. he knew his rights. mr. belin. did he ever say he requested an attorney on the way down to the police station? mr. hill. i do not recall. i was going to say that by making the statement earlier, it is possible, it is a possibility that he decided the best thing to do was keep his mouth shut; that is a supposition on my part, and i couldn't prove it as to the reason he didn't say any more on the way to the police station. mr. belin. where did the police get ahold of his address on beckley? mr. hill. i don't know. this apparently came from homicide later, and once we turned him over to homicide, with the exception of seeing him walking down the hall again in front of several tv people later in the day, i had nothing else to do with the man. i never saw him again. mr. belin. sergeant hill, from the time he was handcuffed until the time you turned him over to captain fritz, except for the moments that he was in the room with officer walker in the interrogation room, were you with the suspect at all times? mr. hill. yes; and i was also with him when i was standing in the doorway of the room when he was there, with walker. the door was never closed. mr. belin. the door was never closed? mr. hill. no. mr. belin. while you were standing in the doorway with walker, did the man, suspect, say anything at all, or not? mr. hill. not that i recall, sir. at this time when i was in the doorway, i was talking to baker and had my attention more on him and what he was saying, because at that point we were trying to decide if he wanted the gun, if we were going to make the offense, or homicide, or the officers that stayed out at the scene to wait for the crime lab. we were talking trying to get the paperwork straight. mr. belin. how far was the suspect from you at this time? mr. hill. sitting across the table, about as wide as this, and maybe more feet to the door. mr. belin. about how far would that be? mr. hill. about feet. mr. belin. how close was the other officer to you? mr. hill. the other officer was at the end of the table here. he was probably feet from me and feet from the suspect. mr. belin. did you hear the other officer say anything to the suspect? mr. hill. no, sir; i didn't. mr. belin. did you hear the suspect say anything at all? mr. hill. i didn't hear the suspect say anything at all. other than the statement he made in the basement, i didn't hear him utter another word. mr. belin. if the suspect had told anyone his address from the time he was apprehended until the time he was turned over to captain fritz, would you have been in a position to hear that statement made? mr. hill. with my attention diverted talking to baker, it is possible that he could have given his address to walker without me hearing it, but i can't say for sure. mr. belin. apart from what he may have said to walker, if there was anything else that he could have said except for during that period, would you have heard it if he said anything about living on north beckley? mr. hill. i am sure until the time that the suspect was turned over to fritz, other than maybe a couple of words exchanged between walker and the suspect while i was standing in the door talking to baker, i am sure i would have heard it, and i never did hear the address north beckley mentioned until much later in the day, and this was strictly hearsay, sir. mr. belin. well, did you hear any beckley street address mentioned? mr. hill. i didn't hear anything on beckley mentioned until probably or o'clock that night. mr. belin. did you talk to walker after he left the interrogation room? mr. hill. talked to walker after he left the interrogation room. he came into the personnel office with us, and we sat down and made sure that--we just talked over our story and made sure that we had all the details as to who was where in the arrest, what door the man came in into the theatre, where they were when the original contact was made, how bentley hurt his foot, how lyons hurt his foot, and all this, and decided, well, rather than have to get everybody back together and round them up and all six or seven people sign the one report, it was decided that carroll and i would be the only two that signed it, and that bentley would go on to the hospital and get his foot fixed, and lyons would go to the hospital and get his foot fixed, and after mcdonald finally got down there to the station and we sent him over to the city hall to get the scratch on his face treated, and then the rest of the time, with the exception of going across the hall for a cup of coffee, probably i didn't get out of the office to almost o'clock. mr. belin. did walker ever mention to you any conversation he had with oswald in the interrogation room? mr. hill. no, sir. mr. belin. did you and he discuss all the conversations that were had with the prisoner? mr. hill. with the exception of getting some information from mcdonald as to what oswald actually said at the time of his contact with him in the theatre, the statement to the effect, "this is it," i figured that i had been in on the conversation when he was discussing the brutality and the statements he made in the car, and the statement he made in the basement when we were telling him he could duck his head if he wanted to, enough that i had all the information that i needed for the report, so i never did discuss any of the conversation that could possibly have taken place between walker and the suspect in the interrogation room. mr. belin. over what period of time span would that have been that he was in the interrogation room and you were standing in the doorway there? mr. hill. probably or minutes. mr. belin. now, when you were going down to the station in the car, i believe the question was asked of the suspect to give his name and his address and he refused, is that correct? mr. hill. he didn't answer either question. he didn't say, "i am not going to tell you anything." he just didn't answer, that is all. mr. belin. but at least officer walker never told you that he finally answered that question, did he? mr. hill. no. mr. belin. well, you had one report that you entitled "the arrest of lee harvey oswald," which pertained to the texas theatre. did you have any other report that you made at all, or not? mr. hill. i had to make one later about a telephone call that i made from san antonio to dallas when we got the flash down there on sunday morning that oswald had been shot. i was attending a meeting down there. mr. belin. well, apart from that, anything? mr. hill. also, i made a statement to the fbi concerning the fact that i had known jack ruby prior to this thing. but as far an another report, other than the original report that afternoon on the arrest of the suspect, i don't recall writing any other report after that one report that was signed by carroll and i and captain westbrook is the only one i wrote on the actual arrest. mr. belin. i see one -page report that is signed by you. mr. hill. can i look at it? mr. belin. you bet you can. [handing to witness.] mr. hill. this was later when they wanted a report from each individual officer. yes, sir; i did write this. mr. belin. you are referring to a report dated what? mr. hill. this would have been dated november , sir, and it is signed by captain westbrook and bob carroll and myself. i do not have it with me, but in case it is not in there, i have a carbon copy of it with all three signatures on it. mr. belin. did you have anything to do with either the assassination investigation or the tippit investigation on saturday, november ? mr. hill. no, sir; i was off that day. and then on sunday the th, i had flown out of dallas that morning on a braniff flight to san antonio with a sergeant from dallas and captain from garland and captain from denison to attend a state board meeting of the texas municipal police association in san antonio at the international building, and we took a coffee break somewhere around : or , i don't know the exact time. mr. belin. when was the last time you saw jack ruby prior to the shooting of oswald? mr. hill. it was probably to weeks, and that was a contact that i was walking by a garage one night about the time he came down to get his car, and we talked for a minute and that is all. mr. belin. do you remember what you said or what he said at all, or not? mr. hill. it just was a greeting. we hadn't seen each other in quite a while. in the interim, i had been on--normally when i was on a rotating schedule of working evenings and deep nights, the carousel club was located in the district that i worked quite often, and i would stop in there once in a while, and i had been on a special assignment for about months working straight days, in town and out of town, and i hadn't been by or hadn't seen him, and this particular night we ran into each other, and he wanted to know what i was doing, and i told him i was working in personnel. and he said, i haven't been much around much lately, and i said, "i am staying home." mr. belin. when was the last time you saw him prior to that meeting? mr. hill. probably the last time, i was in his place on duty, maybe or weeks before this. mr. belin. i wonder if you would describe the situation in the police department on the third floor with regard to reporters or what have you during the period of time that you brought oswald in and during the rest of the time you might have been there on the afternoon of november ? what did you find when you got there? mr. hill. there wasn't anybody except the ones that were down in the basement waiting for us to bring him in, and they were standing in the doorway, that if you turned to the right, you go in the jail office. if you go straight, you go into the basement of the building. some of them rode up on the elevator with us. when we started off the elevator, they got ahead of us and shot us walking down the hall and took pictures of us going to homicide. we carried him into the interrogation room and they followed us into the homicide office. at this time probably there were six or seven people, jim underwood from krld was one of them, and i don't recall any more specifically by name. but as time went by in the afternoon, more and more people came in until i would say about : or o'clock that night, the night of the d, when i left, there were some - or -odd reporters and floodlights and two or three live cameras and several more cameras on tripods, and out-of-town reporters, and local reporters, and everything else, that officers were on duty and in uniform to keep the halls open as much as possible. and if you wanted to go from the elevator entrance on back toward homicide or to any of the other detective offices, you had to drag your way through tv cables and bodies of people, seesawing your course to get through there. mr. belin. now you have stated when we first started this deposition that you had some background in either newspaper or radio or television? mr. hill. yes, sir. i worked at the herald both as a police reporter, as a newswriter, and a radio-tv editor, and left there and went with wbap as a member of their dallas bureau, covering the, working out of an office in the police station here in dallas, and covering police news and all other types of news also. mr. belin. was there any request ever made to the press people to clear the hall or clear the floor at all? mr. hill. not to my personal knowledge; no, sir. it could have been made when i wasn't there, or it could have been made before i got there, or after i left or while i was in an office or something, but i don't know that a direct order was ever given to get everybody out. mr. belin. could you tell us what general discussion there was among the officers, the line officers, without quoting any names that might embarrass anyone, about all of these people and paraphernalia there? mr. hill. as to the situation, we commented that it was a bad thing that we didn't have a space big enough to put everybody and make press releases to them like they did in some of the eastern cities. i think somebody brought up the fact that in new york you wouldn't do what was done here because everybody had to go to one place and when they got ready to tell you something, they would come in and make a formal announcement, and if they wanted to throw it open for questions they did, and if they didn't they would walk out. there was commenting on the smallness of the space that we had to work in and the inconvenience there, and the building, had it been brooklyn, it wouldn't have created as much congestion and all. but there was a feeling of congeniality between the police and the press, and i observed some of the officers that did have to go ask somebody to move or get out of the way, or not block a door, or so, or not block this, and the press was very nice about cooperating and doing at that time what they were asked to do. what happened saturday and sunday, i don't know. but it was rather crowded, i will make that statement. mr. belin. sergeant hill, i have handed you these six bullets that you previously identified with your signature on it here, and asked you to examine and try to find which one, if any, had a scratch that you talked about, and you picked out what might properly be the one. what is the fact as to whether or not this depression was a deep one or was one that you found difficult to see? mr. hill. it was one that i found difficult to see at the time. however, the bullets had not been handled as much at that time, and they were less shiny, and evidence would have been a little better on a dull shell where a new marking had been made on it rather than one that had been handled a few times. mr. belin. the two that you picked out are marked, i believe, "q- " and the other one is "q- ," is that it? mr. hill. that's right. mr. belin. i think you said as between the two of them, you saw---- mr. hill. q- would be the one. mr. belin. now, sergeant hill, we met one time earlier here, i think, a couple of days ago, is that correct? mr. hill. i believe it was friday afternoon, sir. mr. belin. friday afternoon? mr. hill. yes. mr. belin. originally we had your deposition set for friday afternoon, is that correct? mr. hill. that's right. mr. belin. you came and i had an airplane flight, an o'clock flight, that was canceled? mr. hill. that left. mr. belin. i left at : --and now it is past o'clock--and i told you i didn't think we had a chance to get your deposition. at that time i believe i asked you just to state what general areas of work you had worked in so we could try and see whether or not we had time to take your deposition in half an hour, and i believe you described your work at the texas school book depository in general terms, and in general terms your being at the texas theatre, but did we go into any details at that time? mr. hill. the only specifics we discussed were this. you were asking officer hicks if either one recalled seeing a sack, supposedly one that had been made by the suspect, in which he could have possibly carried the weapon into the depository, and i at that time told you about the small sack that appeared to be a lunchsack, and that that was the only sack that i saw, and that i left the book depository prior to the finding of the gun. or the section, if it was found up there on the sixth floor, if it was there, i didn't see it. then you asked me some statement, if i had heard it in the car, but i don't recall what statement it was. but i told you at that time there was remarks made, but i didn't recall hearing that. i don't remember what it was. perhaps your memory on that is better than mine. mr. belin. was there anything else in specific that we discussed at that time? mr. hill. not that i recall. mr. belin. otherwise, that is our only conversation that we had? mr. hill. yes, sir; it was just very general and very limited due to the stress of time. mr. belin. by the way, did you search the suspect that you brought in from the texas theatre? mr. hill. as to any other possible weapon? mr. belin. yes; or ammunition? mr. hill. i did not search him, and being that he was handcuffed, and being that they were moving him out hurriedly, i don't recall anyone else searching him after he was placed under arrest. mr. belin. is there anything else you can think of, whether i have asked it or not, that is in any way relevant to this area of inquiry pertaining to the investigation of the assassination, or the investigation of the tippit murder? anything else you can think of that you would like to comment on at this time? mr. hill. not that i can recall, sir. mr. belin. sergeant hill, we want to thank you very much for your splendid cooperation, and for the cooperation of the entire police department here, and you particularly. you had to make two trips, because of the fact that the one airplane of mine was canceled. mr. hill. they were both on duty, so i don't mind. mr. belin. you have an opportunity, if you like, to read the typewritten transcript of this deposition and sign it, or else you can waive the signing and have it go directly to washington without your reading. do you have any preference? mr. hill. sir, if it would be all right, i would like to run by and sign it? if you will just let me know when, i will be here. mr. belin. they will contact you and again we want to thank you very much. mr. hill. it is my pleasure. anytime i can help, let me know. testimony of j. m. poe the testimony of j. m. poe was taken at : a.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. joseph a. ball, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. ball. would you stand and be sworn, please. do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. poe. yes. mr. ball. state your name. mr. poe. j. m. poe [spelling]. p-o-e. mr. ball. and your address? mr. poe. cascade street. mr. ball. and your occupation? mr. poe. police officer, city of dallas. mr. ball. all right, what is your rank in the department? mr. poe. patrolman. mr. ball. how long have you been in the department? mr. poe. nine years and one month. mr. ball. and where were you born? mr. poe. winnsboro, tex. mr. ball. where did you go to school? mr. poe. winnsboro, stephensville, and edgewood. mr. ball. how far through school did you go? mr. poe. graduated from high school. mr. ball. then what did you do? mr. poe. then went into the navy. mr. ball. how long did you stay there? mr. poe. three years. mr. ball. then what did you do? mr. poe. i was what we called a "snipe," diesel mechanic. mr. ball. how long did you do that work? mr. poe. about years. mr. ball. then what did you do? mr. poe. i was in construction work. i was the carpenter when i got out of the service. mr. ball. you worked as a "snipe," in the service, is that right? mr. poe. yes, sir. mr. ball. then you got out of the service and worked as a construction worker? mr. poe. yes. mr. ball. and then what did you do? mr. poe. i joined the police force. mr. ball. what kind of work do you do on the police force? mr. poe. patrol work. mr. ball. patrolman? mr. poe. yes, sir. mr. ball. in a car? mr. poe. yes, sir. mr. ball. in a radio car? mr. poe. yes, sir. mr. ball. were you on duty on the d of november ? mr. poe. yes, sir; i was. mr. ball. what time of day? mr. poe. from in the morning until in the afternoon. mr. ball. were you alone? mr. poe. no, sir. mr. ball. who was with you? mr. poe. l. e. jez. mr. ball. [spelling.] j-a-s-s. mr. poe. no; it is j-e-z. mr. ball. what district do you patrol? mr. poe. i had two districts to patrol. district and district . mr. ball. where are they located? mr. poe. in the western end of the downtown section. mr. ball. you were a downtown patrolman? mr. poe. yes, sir. mr. ball. did you hear of the assassination of the president over the radio? the fact that the president had been shot? mr. poe. we heard the call come out on the radio. there was a signal , which would be a shooting of the president, at elm and houston streets. mr. ball. what did you do? were you told to go some place? mr. poe. we reported the scene; yes, sir. mr. ball. to where? mr. poe. to elm and houston. mr. ball. when--what did you do there? mr. poe. we helped cover off the building and control the crowd. mr. ball. then you went where? mr. poe. from there to oak cliff, to the scene of the tippit shooting. mr. ball. how did you happen to go out there? mr. poe. i was standing close to the squad car using the squad car as part of the block to keep the crowd back and had run out of rope, and heard a citizen, i presume, get on the radio, and--because he didn't know radio procedure, called and said a police officer was shot out there. at first give the wrong address, and come back and changed it to another address, and i believe he left us in the block of east ninth, the last time, and we went out there. mr. ball. you went there? mr. poe. yes. mr. ball. and what did you find when you got there? mr. poe. we found---- mr. ball. what did you see? mr. poe. found the squad car parked toward the curb, and a pool of blood at the left-front wheel of the car. the ambulance had already picked him up and the officer had left the scene when we arrived. we had--i don't know how many people there were. looked like to people around there, and mrs. markham, i talked to her first and we got a description of the man that shot tippit. mr. ball. do you know what the description was? mr. poe. sir? mr. ball. do you know what the description was? mr. poe. white male, about , about feet , brown hair, medium, and i believe she said had on a white jacket at the time. mr. ball. what did you do then? mr. poe. we gave the description to several of the officers at the scene. you couldn't get on the radio at the time, there was so much traffic on the radio, and the last--the direction he was seen leaving, and then i talked to several more witnesses around there. mr. ball. did you ever put that description on the radio? mr. poe. i believe we did. but i couldn't swear to it. mr. ball. and what happened after that? mr. poe. i talked to a spanish man, but i don't remember his name. dominique, i believe. mr. ball. domingo benavides? mr. poe. i believe that is correct; yes, sir. mr. ball. what did he tell you? mr. poe. he told me, give me the same, or similar description of the man, and told me he was running out across this lawn. he was unloading his pistol as he ran, and he picked the shells up. mr. ball. domingo told you who was running across the lawn? mr. poe. a man, white man. mr. ball. what was he doing? mr. poe. he was unloading his pistol as he run. mr. ball. and what did he say? mr. poe. he said he picked the two hulls up. mr. ball. did he hand you the hulls? mr. poe. yes, sir. mr. ball. did you put any markings on the hulls? mr. poe. i couldn't swear to it; no, sir. mr. ball. what did you do with the hulls? mr. poe. i turned the hulls into the crime lab, which was at the scene. mr. ball. do you know the name of the man with the crime lab or from the crime lab? mr. poe. i couldn't swear to it. i believe pete barnes, but i wouldn't swear to it. mr. ball. did you talk to any people there? mr. poe. yes, sir. mr. ball. who? mr. poe. talked to mrs. markham. mr. ball. did you talk to the two davis girls? mr. poe. i talked to one of them, but i can't recall talking to two davis girls. mr. ball. do you remember what a detective dhority there at the scene did? mr. poe. i remember detective leavelle at the scene. mr. ball. leavelle? mr. poe. yes, sir. mr. ball. did the davis girls give you anything? either one of the davis girls hand you anything? mr. poe. she give me the same general description of the suspect as mrs. markham. mr. ball. what was that? mr. poe. white male, and in his early 's, around ' " or ", about pounds, and i believe she said had on a white jacket. mr. ball. there is a--off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. ball. we have here a broadcast by walker. do you know walker? mr. poe. yes, sir. mr. ball. was walker there at the scene? mr. poe. yes, sir; he came by the scene after i got there. mr. ball. what is his full name? mr. poe. i don't know. i want to say c. t., but i am not positive on that. mr. ball. at : p.m., on the transcript of the radio log, i note it says, "have a description of suspect on jefferson. last seen about the block of east jefferson. white male, 's; ' ", black hair, slender built, wearing white shirt, black slacks." do you know whether you gave walker that description? mr. poe. i remember giving walker a description. my partner got in the car with walker. mr. ball. did you give walker a description similar to that? mr. poe. yes, sir. mr. ball. well, the only difference i see between the description you said you gave the other officer and this was that you said he was in his 's or , and this says about . otherwise it is about the same. mr. poe. yes, sir. mr. ball. who told you he had on a white jacket? mr. poe. mrs. markham told me first. mr. ball. she did? mr. poe. yes, sir; mrs. markham was awfully excited, and she was--looked like about to faint, and i tried to calm her down as much as i could at first and get as much as i could out of her. mr. ball. how many cartridges, or empty cartridges or shells were given to you? mr. poe. there were two in an empty winston cigarette package. mr. ball. did you save the winston cigarette package? mr. poe. i turned it in with the two cartridges. mr. ball. to the crime lab? mr. poe. yes, sir. mr. ball. now, i have here a package which has been marked "q"--fbi lab. q- to q- . would you look those over and see if there is any identification on there by you to indicate that those were the hulls given to you by benavides? mr. poe. i want to say these two are mine, but i couldn't swear to it. mr. ball. did you make a mark? mr. poe. i can't swear to it; no, sir. mr. ball. but there is a mark on two of these? mr. poe. there is a mark. i believe i put on them, but i couldn't swear to it, i couldn't make them out any more. mr. ball. now, the ones you said you made a mark on are--you think it is these two? q- and q- ? mr. poe. yes, sir; those two there. mr. ball. both marked western special? they both are marked western special. how long did you stay there? mr. poe. at the scene? mr. ball. uh-huh. mr. poe. i stayed there until leavelle and his partner from the crime lab got there. mr. ball. then you left? mr. poe. yes, sir; i got out and helped try to find the suspect. mr. ball. were you at the texas theatre? mr. poe. yes, sir. mr. ball. did you see him apprehended? mr. poe. no, sir; i didn't. mr. ball. you were out? mr. poe. at the back. mr. ball. at the back? mr. poe. yes, sir. mr. ball. i think that is all, mr. poe. this will be written up and submitted to you for your signature, and you can sign it if you wish, or waive your signature. which do you prefer? mr. poe. well, sir; i don't have anything to hide. i will tell the truth. mr. ball. do you want to give your signature? mr. poe. i will sign it. mr. ball. okay. we'll do that. we can notify you and you can come up here and sign it. mr. poe. all right. testimony of john gibson the testimony of john gibson was taken at : p.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. joseph a ball, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. ball. will you please rise and hold up your hand and be sworn? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before the commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. gibson. i do. mr. ball. will you state your name, please? mr. gibson. john gibson. mr. ball. what is your occupation? mr. gibson. i am manager of a retail store. mr. ball. what kind of retail store is that? mr. gibson. it's elko camera store. mr. ball. what is the address of the elko camera store? mr. gibson. west jefferson. mr. ball. near the texas theatre? mr. gibson. i'm four doors from the texas theatre. mr. ball. where were you born, mr. gibson? mr. gibson. i was born in brashear, tex. mr. ball. where did you go to school? mr. gibson. woodrow wilson high school. mr. ball. here in dallas? mr. gibson. in dallas. mr. ball. well, what have you done since you got out of school? mr. gibson. well, after i got out of school i went in service in the navy and stayed in there years and came back and went to work for snap-shots, inc., and then went to work for hermetic seal in garland, and then went to work for elko. mr. ball. on november , , did you go to a picture show that day? mr. gibson. yes, sir. mr. ball. about what time of day? mr. gibson. it was at o'clock. mr. ball. do you go to the picture show very often--that particular theatre--the texas theatre? mr. gibson. like i said--that's on friday and that is depending on business. mr. ball. about what time of day do you usually go on friday? mr. gibson. about o'clock--the same time i always go to lunch. mr. ball. where did you sit on this friday, november , ? mr. gibson. i sat in the first chair from the rear on the far right-hand side. mr. ball. is that where you always sit? mr. gibson. that's where i always sit--that's my chair. mr. ball. i have a picture here of the theatre, which i will have marked as exhibit a, and will you look at that picture? does that look like the interior of the texas theatre to you? mr. gibson. yes, sir; it's got more light on it than i've seen most of the time--that looks like it. (instrument marked by the reporter as gibson exhibit no. a, for identification.) mr. ball. is the seat in which you usually sit shown in that picture? mr. gibson. no, sir. mr. ball. where is that seat with reference to the picture? mr. gibson. further to the left--from the main seating in the very back--it would be just past him. mr. ball. there's a man sitting in the back in the first seat in the center aisle? mr. gibson. right, and i would be--to his right. mr. ball. in the same row? mr. gibson. in the same row. mr. ball. to his right facing the screen? mr. gibson. yes. mr. ball. and on the other aisle, is that correct? mr. gibson. right. mr. ball. did you see the lights come on in that theatre? mr. gibson. yes. mr. ball. had you paid any attention to other people who had come in the theatre before the lights came on? mr. gibson. no. mr. ball. tell me what happened after the lights came on? mr. gibson. well, when the lights came on, of course, as i said before, i know most of the people that work there in the show and i got up and started to the front to ask where the head usher or the girl was that works these lights--if something was wrong--i thought maybe they had a fire. mr. ball. you say you started to the front, you mean you started into the lobby? mr. gibson. i started to the lobby, and just before i got to the door there were two or three--anyway the first police officer that got to me was carrying a shotgun, i remember that, and he says, "is there anybody in the balcony?" i said, "i don't know." he went on up into the balcony and i stood around out in the lobby for--i don't know--a minute or something, i guess, and they kept coming in and i stepped back inside the theatre just standing just behind where i had been sitting and i would say there were at least six or possibly more policemen downstairs. the rest of them were going upstairs. mr. ball. what did you see happen? mr. gibson. well, i was standing there watching all this going on and then the policeman started down the aisle--i would say there was another--i don't know, maybe six or eight--started down the aisles. mr. ball. when you say "down the aisles," you mean all of the aisles? mr. gibson. toward the screen--i don't know if they were going down all of them or not. i don't believe there was any--there was one policeman standing, it seems to me like, right on the other side of me, in the far aisle--just behind me--i don't think there was anybody going down the far aisle next to the wall on my side. mr. ball. what aisles did you see policemen going down? mr. gibson. i saw them going down what i would call the two big center aisles, and then the next thing was--oswald was standing in the aisle with a gun in his hand. mr. ball. that's the next thing you saw? mr. gibson. yes, sir. mr. ball. was there anybody with him--near him? mr. gibson. i couldn't swear to that--i don't know--you mean other policemen? mr. ball. that's what i mean--was he in the aisles? mr. gibson. well, he was in the aisle when i saw him. mr. ball. what was he doing? mr. gibson. well, he had this pistol in his hand. mr. ball. was anybody near him? mr. gibson. just the officers. mr. ball. what was the officer doing--did you say officers or police officer? mr. gibson. officers. mr. ball. plural, officers? mr. gibson. yes; there were more than one. mr. ball. what were they doing? mr. gibson. well, they were going toward him. mr. ball. did they have ahold of him at the time? mr. gibson. no; i don't believe so. mr. ball. did anyone have ahold of him at that time? mr. gibson. i don't think so. mr. ball. did you see any officer grab hold of oswald? mr. gibson. yes, sir. mr. ball. which one--can you describe where he was and what he did--just tell us in your own words what you saw him do? mr. gibson. well, just like--i guess you have heard this a lot of times--the gun misfired--it clicked and about the same time there was one police officer that positively had him. mr. ball. what do you mean--"had him"? mr. gibson. well, i mean he grabbed ahold of him. mr. ball. did he grab ahold of him before you heard the click or afterwards? mr. gibson. gee, that's a question that's kind of hard to answer because i would say possibly seconds before or a second--maybe at the precise time the gun clicked. it happened pretty fast and like i say, i just went in to eat a hot-dog for lunch and i wasn't expecting any of this. mr. ball. did you see any officer strike oswald? mr. gibson. no, sir; not directly; i saw them take him to the floor. mr. ball. did you see oswald strike any officer? mr. gibson. [shaking head for negative answer.] mr. ball. you did not? mr. gibson. not that i saw. mr. ball. did you hear anybody say anything? mr. gibson. well, i heard the officers, but i don't remember what they said--i couldn't tell you if my life depended on it. mr. ball. did you hear oswald say anything? mr. gibson. no. mr. ball. you mentioned the fact that they took him to the floor, you mean they actually went down in the floor of the theatre or close to it? mr. gibson. well, from where i was standing and looking across--they took him to the floor. mr. ball. were there any seats in the way when they fell? mr. gibson. no; i was standing up--yes; there was seats in the way, but i was looking at an angle. mr. ball. did oswald fall on the seats or on the floor? mr. gibson. they fell on the floor as best i could tell. mr. ball. then what did you see happen? mr. gibson. i didn't see anything happen--i walked back to the front. mr. ball. did you see oswald leave the theatre? mr. gibson. yes; i saw the officers bring him out. mr. ball. describe what you saw at that time--i want to know how they had ahold of him? mr. gibson. well, right after they took him to the floor, as i said, he had a gun in his hand and i turned around and walked back into the lobby, the front part of the theatre, and just right after i walked out into the lobby, one of the policemen yelled, "lock the doors," and so i walked up and started locking the doors and the head usher, butch, came running out and he started at one end and i started at the other end. there was six or eight doors in the front, and we locked them up and then they brought oswald through the door--there was two police officers that had ahold of him, and his arms were bent around behind him--like so [indicating]. mr. ball. and did the officer have his arm around his neck? mr. gibson. i don't know--i don't think so--he did have a black eye and his shirt was about halfway torn off of him. mr. ball. did you hear oswald say anything? mr. gibson. yes. mr. ball. what did he say? mr. gibson. he said, "i protest police brutality." mr. ball. at any time did you see an officer, while the officers were struggling, with oswald, did you see an officer strike oswald with the butt of a shotgun? mr. gibson. no, sir; i didn't. mr. ball. did you see a shotgun in the hands of any of the officers who were struggling with oswald? mr. gibson. no, sir; i didn't. mr. ball. did you see any officer in possession of a shotgun in the theatre? mr. gibson. oh--yes, yes; i saw quite a few in possession of a shotgun. mr. ball. were there any officers with shotguns near oswald when he was struggling with these other officers? mr. gibson. gee, i don't know--that, i couldn't say--because like i say, when they took him down to the floor, all i could--or i should say down--i turned around and went back to the front. mr. ball. did you see the police talk to the other patrons of the theatre? mr. gibson. well, as i said, the only thing that they said to me--the first policeman that i saw in the theatre was right after the lights came on and he asked me if there was anyone upstairs, but i can't definitely say i saw them talking to anybody. mr. ball. well, did any officers talk to you afterwards and get your name and address? mr. gibson. no. mr. ball. did you see them take the name and address of anybody else? mr. gibson. no, sir; right after they put lee oswald in the police car and drove off, i walked outside and went back over to the store. mr. ball. i understood that one group of the police headed for oswald? mr. gibson. well, i don't believe they really headed for him--i believe they just started down through the theatre. from what the boy told me--johnny pardis told me, he followed him into the theatre and he went upstairs, and i believe this is why all the policemen went upstairs. i don't think they really headed for him. i mean, they just evidently, as i said, all of them went upstairs, with the exception of a small majority, say or , maybe downstairs and inside the theatre there. mr. ball. did they pass you on their way? mr. gibson. you mean up the stairs? mr. ball. no; the smaller party that was downstairs. mr. gibson. no; i was standing on this far side right next to the wall. mr. ball. and they were in an aisle over there? mr. gibson. well, actually, they were two or three aisles over--there's two big main aisles, and then there's another small aisle that runs down the wall. mr. ball. was there any other patron of the theatre along the way that they went? mr. gibson. i don't know this, as i said, for a fact--this is what a lady at the show told me. she sent butch, the head usher up on the stage to guard the exit back there and where he come from i don't know, because as i said, when they took him to the floor, then i turned around and walked out into the lobby and one officer hollered, "lock the doors," and butch came through there to the doors. mr. ball. but you didn't see other officers go up to any other patrons of the theatre over there on their way to oswald? mr. gibson. no. mr. ball. as they went along--they finally walked up and outside? mr. gibson. no; they were just looking in general it appeared to me. mr. ball. was there anyone who was sitting closer to them than oswald was? mr. gibson. gosh--i don't know--it's hard to remember, when you try. mr. ball. you don't know why they went up to him and not someone else? mr. gibson. well, as i said--i don't think they went up to him. as i said, the first time i saw him in the theatre definitely was when he was standing in the aisle with a gun in his hand. now, somebody told me that oswald jumped up and whirled around and said, "this is it," but this is something i don't know, so this is hearsay. mr. ball. but would you think he stood up first before any police officer got to him? or that near him? mr. gibson. he had to, because they took him from a standing position to the floor and he was standing up. mr. ball. did you see them before they came up to him? mr. gibson. yes; i was watching them there, i was just standing in the corner--as i said, just looking around the corner--there is a chance you can see in the corner and i was looking around it and as i said, i don't know whether he got up and whirled around or what he did, but when i saw him he was facing the police with a gun in his hand. mr. ball. the first you saw him he was standing? mr. gibson. he was standing. mr. ball. and you didn't hear him say anything except on his way out? mr. gibson. except on his way out--is the only thing i heard him say. mr. ball. this will be written up and you can come down and sign it if you want to, or you can waive your signature. what would you like to do? mr. gibson. well, i said it, i might as well sign it. mr. ball. okay. you will be called in to come down and sign it. mr. gibson. thanks very much. mr. ball. thank you. testimony of james putnam the testimony of james putnam was taken at a.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. john hart ely, member of the staff of the president's commission. mr. ely. would you stand up and be sworn, please? mr. putnam. all right. mr. ely. do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. putnam. i do. mr. ely. would you state your name, please? mr. putnam. james putnam. mr. ely. and where do you live? mr. putnam. joan drive. mr. ely. what is your occupation? mr. putnam. police officer--sergeant of police. mr. ely. how long have you been with the dallas police department? mr. putnam. ten years and four months. mr. ely. could you give us something of your background before you started to work for the police department--where you went to school and what you did before you became a policeman? mr. putnam. is this pertinent? mr. ely. where did you go to school? mr. putnam. is this pertinent to the deposition? well, if you want it, i will give it to you. i went to school at charleston, s.c. and i was in the navy for about years. mr. ely. and did you go directly from the navy to the police department? mr. putnam. no; from the navy i went to work for lone star gas co. here in dallas. from there i went to work for prudential insurance co. from which i was recalled into the navy again, and when i was released, i went back to the insurance company, and from there i applied for employment with the dallas police department. mr. ely. thank you, sergeant. now, on november , , were you on duty with the police department? mr. putnam. yes, sir. mr. ely. did your duties on that day involve you in any way in the investigation of the assassination of president kennedy? mr. putnam. yes. mr. ely. what was the nature of your involvement with that investigation? mr. putnam. just to assist in covering of the book depository building and aiding in searching the building. mr. ely. did your duties involve you in any way in the investigation of the shooting of officer tippit? mr. putnam. no. mr. ely. could you state the nature of your specialty with the police department? what sort of work do you specialize in? mr. putnam. my assignment then and now is sergeant of police, supervising patrolmen in the radio patrol division. (instrument marked by the reporter as "putnam exhibit no. ," for identification.) mr. ely. sergeant, i will show you first a map which is designated putnam deposition exhibit no. , and i will also show you two documents designated sawyer exhibits a and b, which purport to be transcripts of radio logs from the d of november. now, although you would have no personal knowledge of where officer tippit was assigned that day, assume for purposes of my questioning that his original assignment on the d of november was within the area marked on putnam exhibit . can you tell me within which district the corner of lancaster and eighth street is? mr. putnam. district . mr. ely. and is it correct that here on the exhibit marked sawyer deposition exhibit a there is a call recorded at : p.m., from to reporting he was at lancaster and th? mr. putnam. yes; there is. mr. ely. now, assuming that officer tippit was originally assigned to the district numbered , taking into account the report that at : he was within the district marked , and also assuming that he later was shot within the district marked , would you look at these radio logs and tell us if you find on either one of them any calls which would account for the fact that he had thus come in toward the center of town from the district he was originally assigned to? feel free to draw upon your general knowledge of the custom in the dallas police department for leaving, or remaining in, one's assigned district. mr. putnam. one transmission here on channel , that would be the normal channel that tippit would be listening to, at : p.m. on sawyer's deposition exhibit b, is to the attention of all squads in the downtown area, code to elm and houston, and with officer tippit being assigned to district and allowed the discretion that is allowed in the dallas police department--he would start in the direction of the downtown area. a feasible route would bring him to district and that vicinity. mr. ely. is there any special reason why that would be a feasible route? mr. putnam. this houston street, if you will notice right in this corner--houston street adjoins district . it is one of the routes you can use to cross the river into the downtown area. this would be the normal procedure as far as officer tippit was concerned, to come in toward the downtown area, unless disregarded and a later transmission on channel , after getting his location, advised him to remain at large in the oak cliff area. "at large," would indicate that he would feel free to go nearer in the oak cliff area, with the idea in mind that he would be looking for any suspect or any suspicious circumstance that might be related to the shooting. mr. ely. are districts , , and all located within the oak cliff area? mr. putnam. they are located in the oak cliff area. mr. ely. all right, thank you, sergeant putnam, i believe that's all. testimony of lt. rio s. pierce the testimony of lt. rio s. pierce was taken at : a.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. john hart ely, member of the staff of the president's commission. mr. ely. would you stand and be sworn? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. pierce. i do. mr. ely. lieutenant, i am here as a representative of the president's commission which is looking into all the facts surrounding the assassination of president kennedy, and we have been informed that you might have information which would help us in this inquiry. mr. ely. would you state your full name, please? mr. pierce. rio sam pierce. mr. ely. and where do you live? mr. pierce. south edgefield. mr. ely. could you tell us what your occupation is? mr. pierce. officer--police officer. mr. ely. and what rank do you hold? mr. pierce. lieutenant. mr. ely. you are a lieutenant with the dallas police department? mr. pierce. that's right. mr. ely. could you tell us something about what you did before you started to work for the police department? mr. pierce. well, i was raised on a farm out in west texas and engaged in farming practically all of my life up until i went in the marine corps. after i got out of the marine corps in , in april i believe it was, i came to the dallas police department in august . mr. ely. could you tell us, please, what your job is? what do you specialize in with the police department? mr. pierce. i am assigned as a lieutenant in the patrol division out of the central station. mr. ely. now, were you on duty on november , ? mr. pierce. i was not. mr. ely. were you in dallas on that date? mr. pierce. part of the day. i went to ennis, tex., early that morning and returned to dallas about--oh, it was approximately or : p.m. mr. ely. did you have anything to do with the investigation of the killing of either president kennedy or officer tippit? mr. pierce. no, sir. mr. ely. i will show you three exhibits, one is a map designated putnam exhibit no. . the other two are designated sawyer deposition exhibits a and b, and are copies of the dallas police department's radio logs for november , . if you will for the moment assume that officer tippit was assigned to patrol the district marked no. on putnam exhibit no. . can you explain why, subsequent to the shooting of the president, officer tippit would be in the district marked --specifically at the corner of lancaster and eighth--at : p.m., and then would later have proceeded into district , which is the area in which he was shot and killed? will you look at these radio logs to see if you can find any calls which would lead him to take this route? use any other information at your disposal to explain to us why he would have gone out of district and over into nos. and ? mr. pierce. well, i see one transmission here that i think would have alerted any officer knowing the fact that the president was in town, at : --i believe this occurred on channel --this was taken from channel recordings at : . it says, "attention all squads of downtown area, code to elm and houston with caution." mr. ely. explain what code means. mr. pierce. that's an emergency. in other words, that is, we have code , which is normal driving; we have code , and a code . in other words, code is your top--proceed with haste and caution. the transmission followed that at : , "attention all squads, the suspect in the shooting at elm and houston is reported to be an unknown white male," and gives the description here--would also be an indication to the squads, and reading this--and i assume that this is the way it came out--a man would have to draw his own judgment, because it hasn't told you yet that the president has been shot, but i would think that any normal police officer would assume that there had been something pertaining to that, probably, and it would be normal procedure for him working in the district he is working in to pull into a closer area to the downtown area, and this district , which is, i believe you stated, that as being at eighth and lancaster--it doesn't show here on your map, but you have no viaduct--that's about the only place you can cross that river, unless you want to wade. mr. ely. could you mark on the exhibit with your red pencil where that viaduct would be? mr. pierce. well, you see, cadiz street over here in the downtown area--it also crosses this river and comes on out--may or may not be nearly correct--it isn't too far from wrong--i don't think so--there is two viaducts. mr. ely. the red mark you have just drawn is what? mr. pierce. the red mark is one viaduct that crosses that river and the area where he was at that time, i will just have to use this--lancaster street comes in something like that--it isn't marked on here. mr. ely. all right. mr. pierce. but, he wouldn't be too far from that cadiz street viaduct. anyway, they come over that cadiz street viaduct, and also you have quite a few apartment houses along there on lancaster and marsalis. in other words, there is a large number of people that live over in there. that seemed to me like he was probably using pretty good judgment in getting in that particular area because he would have a chance there to assist from the downtown area there. mr. ely. this transmission to which you referred, the one appearing at : p.m. on sawyer deposition exhibit b, purports to be directed only to all squads in the downtown area? mr. pierce. that's right. mr. ely. but you think it would be normal even for those squads not located in the downtown area to react? mr. pierce. i would have to call on my experience in the dallas police department. under normal police procedure we request that the squads stay in their district, but under any emergency situation we do not require that they stay in their district. mr. ely. so, you would characterize this as a normal course of behavior? mr. pierce. it looks like a normal procedure to me. mr. ely. all right. do you think of anything else that you would want to mention in connection with this, or do you think that just about covers it? mr. pierce. well, like i say, i was on my day off and i would just have to assume what was happening, but i don't know anything in connection with tippit, but in this location, if that is what you are interested in, that would not be unusual. mr. ely. well, that's what we are interested in. thank you very much. mr. pierce. all right, thank you. testimony of calvin bud owens the testimony of calvin bud owens was taken at : a.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. john hart ely, member of the staff of the president's commission. mr. ely. do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. owens. i do. mr. ely. sergeant, i am here as a representative of the president's commission, which is investigating all of the circumstances surrounding the assassination of president kennedy, and we have reason to believe that you might be able to give us some information which would help us. mr. owens. all right. mr. ely. could you state your full name, please? mr. owens. calvin bud owens. mr. ely. and where do you live, sir? mr. owens. melbourne [spelling] m-e-l-b-o-u-r-n-e. mr. ely. in dallas? mr. owens. that's right. mr. ely. what is your occupation? mr. owens. i am a police officer. mr. ely. and what rank do you hold in the police department? mr. owens. sergeant. mr. ely. how long have you been with the police department? mr. owens. twenty-three and a half years. mr. ely. could you give us a general idea of what you did before you went with the department? mr. owens. how far back? mr. ely. starting with your schooling, let's say. mr. owens. most of my schooling was in dallas. i was born in madill [spelling] m-a-d-i-l-l, okla. i started school in wilburton, okla., and from there to shawnee, okla., and from there to ennis, tex., and then to dallas, and then i went through winnetka. i'll say i graduated from city park grammar school and forest avenue high school. after i got out of school in the depression, i went to work at the baker hotel as a bellhop. i left there and went up to oklahoma for approximately a year, came back and went to work at sears, roebuck and worked there - / years, and then went to work for the public works department in construction, as a chainman in a survey crew until, let's see, that was in . i worked their until the spring of . i worked months in the fire department, left, and went back to engineers. in october , i went to work in the police department. december , , i went in the navy and got out january , , and i returned to the police department. mr. ely. and you have been there ever since? mr. owens. yes. mr. ely. were you on duty on november , ? mr. owens. i was. mr. ely. and what was the nature of your assignment on that date? mr. owens. acting lieutenant, oak cliff substation. mr. ely. because you were acting lieutenant in the oak cliff substation, would that mean that officer tippit would be under your supervision? mr. owens. that's true. mr. ely. when and how did you first hear that there had been an incident involving the president of the united states? mr. owens. i had eaten lunch and i was on the way back to the substation--channel was not working properly--some mike--or some radio transmitter had left the mike open and i couldn't hear, and i switched over to channel and heard what sounded like chief curry say, "it looks like the president has been hit," so, not knowing what he had been hit with, i go in the substation and hear on the radio where they are sending squads downtown to elm and houston, and i called the dispatcher's office and wanted to know if they wanted me downtown. they were very busy and never did answer me, so from that, i assumed that there was a big incident involved and maybe the president had been shot, so i leave west illinois where the substation is located and proceed to elm and houston, code . mr. ely. and what does code mean? mr. owens. it means emergency with red lights and siren on. mr. ely. thank you. mr. owens. i arrived at elm and houston, which is the location of the texas school book depository. before i arrived, the squad was dispatched to pick up a man--an officer on stemmons, who had a colored man, who had information regarding the shooting. since i was close, i stopped and picked up a colored man, a lady and two children, and take them to elm and houston, and notified inspector sawyer of what i had. he informed me to send them to the sheriff's office where they had set up this interrogation room. i turned them over to a patrolman there with the instructions to take them over to the sheriff's office. i stayed with inspector sawyer until i was informed that there was a shooting in oak cliff involving a police officer. mr. ely. do you recall the name of this colored man? mr. owens. no. i told inspector sawyer that i was assigned to oak cliff and an officer was involved in the shooting, and i was taking off, so i proceeded--i got in my car, and captain westbrook and bill alexander, an assistant district attorney, also was in the car with me and we started out to--i think the call came out at east th or east jefferson. there was confusion there where the situation was. it was corrected and we went to the scene of the shooting. now, right there--here's where i'm not quite sure--i don't know whether i was given the gun and all--but i believe i was given the gun and this was tippit's gun and shells. mr. ely. do you recall who gave them to you? mr. owens. no; some officer, but i don't know who it was. mr. ely. and how long did you have the gun and shells in your custody? mr. owens. well, i had them at the hospital and we put them in a paper envelope, a large paper envelope with some more of his possessions. mr. ely. did you make any identifying marks on them? mr. owens. no; they were his city issued--his own gun. mr. ely. and do you recall whom you gave them to eventually? mr. owens. no; i believe it was barton--i'm not sure. i couldn't say positively who i gave them to, to go put them in the property room. in fact, i don't even know whether i gave them to anybody. i might have taken them out to the oak cliff substation and put them in our property room--i don't know. mr. ely. now, you were back at the stage where somebody had given you the gun, and let's go on from there. mr. owens. yes--we were informed by a man whom i do not know, that the suspect that shot officer tippit had run across a vacant lot toward jefferson, and thrown down his jacket, i think he said, white, i'm not sure. not finding anybody that had seen him come out of that area, we blocked off that square block. mr. ely. can you tell us specifically what block you blocked off? mr. owens. i believe it was the block of east jefferson--the or block. it was this block bound by jefferson, th, patton, and denver--i believe that was the area. then we started searching the buildings and houses--there are some old two-story houses there used as businesses. mr. ely. what was the nature of your search of these buildings? did you just look through the halls? mr. owens. well, i didn't go in. i was standing on the outside and the other officers were going in. i was covering off. then, we heard over the radio that some officer, who by the number, i took to be a three-wheeler motorcycle officer had seen someone answering the description, go into the basement of the library, which is on the corner of marsalis and jefferson, which was about two blocks away. quite a few of us left that area we were at and proceeded to the library, covered it off, and they brought out the one that they thought was the suspect, but he fit the general description, but he was not the one we were looking for. he was an employee of the library that heard the president had gotten shot and he had been to lunch and he was running over there to tell them that the president got shot. mr. ely. in other words, someone saw this employee run into the library, and that's the reason you came in. he had just run into the library? mr. owens. that's the man that had run across jefferson and run into the basement of the library, so i went back to the scene of the shooting of officer tippit and another call had come and some of my men yelled to me that they had a suspect in the texas theatre, and everyone left there, but nobody was left to help guard the scene except the crime lab man, so i remained at the scene, and everybody else went to the texas theatre. mr. ely. do you remember who the crime lab man was who was there? mr. owens. at the time i thought it was captain doughty [spelling] d-o-u-g-h-t-y. they finished up taking the pictures and i left the scene and went to methodist hospital where officer tippit had been taken, and i was taken back to the room where he was taken, and in just a brief examination of the body i saw where one bullet had entered his right chest about the pocket and went through a package of cigarettes. another one hit him about the center of the chest and hit a button, and another one, i believe, was in his right temple, i'm not sure which temple it was, but those three wounds, i did see. i don't know whether he was shot any more or not. i remained at the hospital for quite a time, and then i went back to the oak cliff substation where i was assigned. mr. ely. and because you were assigned to the oak cliff substation, you at no time during these days or so went into the main police headquarters; is that correct? mr. owens. what, now? mr. ely. you didn't go to the main police headquarters because you were assigned to the oak cliff substation? mr. owens. no; that's right. mr. ely. now, i show you a map which is labeled putnam deposition exhibit no. . could you tell us what sort of a map this is? mr. owens. it is what we call a district map of the various districts of the city of dallas. mr. ely. the various districts to which patrolmen are assigned, is that correct? mr. owens. it is what it was set up for. now, there isn't a squad for each numbered district. some squads have two or more numbers. i mean, the districts cover that. mr. ely. and could you tell us to which district or districts on that map officer tippit was assigned on november , ? mr. owens. he was assigned to district . now, i don't know whether we were short any squads that day or not, and if we were, he would be assigned to cover another district also. his call number would still be . mr. ely. would his call number be even if he were outside the district? mr. owens. oh, yes. mr. ely. i show you now one of the radio logs which is designated "sawyer deposition exhibit a." am i correct in saying that at : p.m., according to this log, officer tippit reported by radio that he was then at the corner of lancaster and eighth? mr. owens. that's right. mr. ely. now, in which district on this map would the corner of lancaster and eighth fall? mr. owens. in district . mr. ely. that would be district . in which district on the map was officer tippit shot? mr. owens. in district . mr. ely. now, we would like to have your opinion as to why officer tippit, who was assigned to district , would have been in district at : p.m. and then later in district ? in giving us your answer, please feel free to refer to both of these radio logs, which are sawyer deposition exhibits a and b, and also draw upon your experience with the dallas police department and the common procedure for reacting to an emergency. mr. owens. it says here on channel , this is sawyer deposition exhibit b, "attention all squads in the downtown area, code , to elm and houston with caution," and knowing that the president's parade was going to be down in that area and also at : this: "attention all squads, the suspect in the shooting, elm and houston, is reported to be an unknown white male, approximately , slender build, height, feet inches, weight, pounds, reported to be armed with what is thought to be a . caliber rifle, no further description or information at this time;" and then it recites at : signal involving the president--that was at : ---- mr. ely. and signal means what? mr. owens. a shooting--anything of that magnitude in the shooting of the president is one of the greatest magnitudes, and any officer would proceed as near that location as possible to try to apprehend whoever had done it. mr. ely. well, would somebody in an outlying district head for elm and houston itself, or would he just come in closer? mr. owens. he would move in that direction, and when they had ordered all downtown squads to proceed to elm and houston, knowing that he was going to have to answer calls in the downtown area while they are there, and if you know that in all probability you may get called in, and--instead of the district you are in, you are going to head down there so it won't take you near as long, and also you can still be in the area if the suspect comes your way, you will have a better chance of apprehending him. mr. ely. so, you think tippit might have been filling in for the people whom he knew had been pulled in to elm and houston? mr. owens. that's what i think--not only filling in, but also looking for the suspect, because he heard about the shooting and the general description of the suspect, and not knowing which way he went, but he could have gone any way, then he is going to head downtown as soon as possible so if he sees someone answering that description, he can apprehend him. mr. ely. you would say it would be normal procedure for an officer in district , which is located out in the outlying districts, to head downtown in any emergency? mr. owens. that's true. mr. ely. could you perhaps give us an explanation of why he headed over toward and ? that doesn't seem to be the most direct route. mr. owens. according to this map--it doesn't show all the things on there--it looks like you would have to zigzag quite a bit, but you wouldn't. you could go down corinth street and go across the viaduct, but that would get him down on industrial, which would still be a lot of traffic to go through. he could go down clarendon to marsalis and go north ewing and then get over to lancaster, and a would give him a straight shoot to the houston street viaduct, which would take him right to elm and houston. mr. ely. so that you think a path of going from to to would be a more or less logical route for getting into the center of town? mr. owens. yes; i do. mr. ely. on the d of november, did you, yourself, have an area which you were patroling? mr. owens. i was supervising all of the oak cliff area, and since i was acting lieutenant, and i made the assignments for that day, i was at the station at west illinois at the time. mr. ely. in which numbered area is that located? mr. owens. that would be on district , and no one sent me, but when i heard all of this--so many squads getting called to report there, then i went. mr. ely. you headed toward the downtown area yourself? mr. owens. yes; i went to elm and houston myself. mr. ely. even though you didn't have a specific order to go in there either? mr. owens. that's right--that's true. mr. ely. officer mcdonald, who testified before the commission, told us that he went to the corner of elm and houston, do you know which numbered area on this map he was assigned to? mr. owens. he was working district , which covers district and . mr. ely. off the record. (discussion off the record between counsel ely and the witness owens.) mr. owens. i don't know what district officer j. l. angel was working, but it was my understanding that he also went to elm and houston. mr. ely. well, he was working somewhere in the oak cliff area, was he? mr. owens. yes; he was working in the oak cliff area under the same sergeant that officer tippit was working under, so he would be in the same general area which covers these districts in here. mr. ely. that would be districts and ? mr. owens. no-- , , , , , or , , , or --that's that sergeant's district. mr. ely. all right, thank you very much, sergeant. mr. owens. i don't know of anything else--as i say, i couldn't remember where they handed me the gun. i knew it was at the scene because my wife said she saw it on television and i had his gun, and when i asked her about it she said it wasn't the suspect's gun she knew because she has been a policeman's wife long enough to know i wouldn't be handling a gun like that if it was the suspect's. mr. ely. all right, sergeant, thank you very much. mr. owens. all right, thank you. testimony of william arthur smith the testimony of william arthur smith was taken at : p.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. joseph a. ball, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. ball. mr. smith, stand up and raise your right hand. do you solemnly swear that the evidence you are about to give before the commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. smith. yes, sir. mr. ball. sit down. mr. ball. state your name, please. mr. smith. william arthur smith. mr. ball. and where do you live? mr. smith. - / east davis. mr. ball. what is your age? mr. smith. twenty. mr. ball. you live with whom? whom do you live with? mr. smith. my mother. mr. ball. at this address? mr. smith. yes, sir. mr. ball. tell me something about yourself, where you were born and where you went to school. mr. smith. i was born in pine bluff, ark., and went to school wason chapel. mr. ball. how far through school did you go? mr. smith. three months into the th grade. mr. ball. three months into the th grade? mr. smith. yes, sir. mr. ball. what did you do after that? mr. smith. been working ever since, most of the time. mr. ball. what kind of work do you do? have you done? mr. smith. corrugated box. mr. ball. beg your pardon? mr. smith. corrugated box. mr. ball. that is where you are working now? mr. smith. no, sir; working at a metal shop. mr. ball. any metal shop? mr. smith. yes. mr. ball. have you ever been in trouble with the police? mr. smith. yes, sir. mr. ball. what kind of trouble did you get in? mr. smith. auto theft. mr. ball. you're on probation now, aren't you? mr. smith. two years. mr. ball. two years? ever have any other trouble? mr. smith. tickets. mr. ball. just tickets? traffic tickets? mr. smith. two right now. mr. ball. you ever have any trouble as a juvenile? mr. smith. no, sir. mr. ball. now, on november , , were you working any place? mr. smith. no, sir. mr. ball. didn't have a job? mr. smith. no, sir. mr. ball. where did you spend the day that day? mr. smith. east th. mr. ball. why were you there? mr. smith. visiting a friend. mr. ball. what is his name? mr. smith. jimmy burt. mr. ball. when did you go over there that day? mr. smith. in the morning. in the morning. mr. ball. in the morning? mr. smith. yes, sir. mr. ball. what time did you leave there that day? mr. smith. in the evening. mr. ball. so, you spent the whole day there? mr. smith. yes. mr. ball. did something happen a little after o'clock there that day that you noticed? mr. smith. yes, sir; policeman got shot. mr. ball. now, at the time the policeman was shot, where were you? mr. smith. in the front yard, at east th. mr. ball. who was with you? mr. smith. jimmy burt. mr. ball. that was about how far from where the policeman got shot? mr. smith. one block. mr. ball. that would be about a block east, wouldn't it? mr. smith. yes, sir. mr. ball. policeman was shot in the block? mr. smith. yes, sir. mr. ball. and you were in the block? mr. smith. yes, sir. mr. ball. what called your attention to this incident? mr. smith. i heard some shots. mr. ball. and what? you looked down that way? mr. smith. yes, sir. mr. ball. what did you see? mr. smith. saw oswald running and policeman falling. mr. ball. did you see his face, or just his back? mr. smith. saw the side of him, the side and back of him when he was running. mr. ball. did you see him before he ran? mr. smith. yes. mr. ball. saw the side of his face? mr. smith. yes. mr. ball. and he ran in what direction? mr. smith. west. mr. ball. did you follow him? mr. smith. no, sir. mr. ball. did you go down to where the policeman was shot? mr. smith. yes. mr. ball. what did you see? mr. smith. saw the policeman lying on the ground. i mean on the street. mr. ball. and did a crowd gather around there? mr. smith. yes, sir. mr. ball. how long did you stay there? mr. smith. about minutes. mr. ball. did you give your name to the police? mr. smith. no, sir. mr. ball. why? mr. smith. because i was on probation. i thought it might hurt my probation record. mr. ball. all right; you did tell someone you had seen it, didn't you? mr. smith. yes. mr. ball. who? mr. smith. this boy i ran around with. mr. ball. what's his name? mr. smith. james markham. mr. ball. is he the son of helen markham? mr. smith. yes, sir. mr. ball. did you talk to her? mr. smith. no, sir; she talks to me. mr. ball. mrs. markham talked to you? mr. smith. yes. mr. ball. and did you tell mrs. markham? mr. smith. i told her what i saw and that is the reason i am here, i a---- mr. ball. did the police come out and see you? mr. smith. the fbi. mr. ball. the fbi did? did you tell them the same story you told me? mr. smith. yes, sir. mr. ball. now, did you see oswald on television? mr. smith. yes, sir. mr. ball. on the night of the shooting? mr. smith. yes, sir. mr. ball. did it appear to you to be the same man you had seen? mr. smith. he had lighter hair than he did when i saw him. mr. ball. well, now, wait a minute. you mean the man you saw on television---- mr. smith. had lighter hair. mr. ball. mr. smith--than the man you saw running away? mr. smith. yes. mr. ball. is that right? mr. smith. yes, sir. mr. ball. what color hair did the man have that you saw running away? mr. smith. brown, brownish-black. it was dark. mr. ball. how did the hair appear on television? mr. smith. looked blond. mr. ball. were you later shown a picture of oswald? mr. smith. yes, sir. mr. ball. by whom? mr. smith. fbi agent. mr. ball. what was the color of the hair in the picture? mr. smith. brown. mr. ball. what did you see? what did you tell the fbi agent about the appearance of the man in the picture? mr. smith. i said it looked more like him than it did on television. mr. ball. and did you think when he showed you the picture that it looked anything like the man you had seen running away? mr. smith. what i saw of him; yes. mr. ball. first time you ever saw this man was after you heard these shots? mr. smith. yes, sir. mr. ball. is that right? you had never seen him walking? mr. smith. no. mr. ball. you hadn't seen him walking in front of the house---- mr. smith. no, sir. mr. ball. where you were standing? mr. smith. no, sir. mr. ball. what kind of clothes did he have on when he shot the officer? mr. smith. he had on dark pants--just a minute. he had on dark pants and a sport coat of some kind. i can't really remember very well. mr. ball. i will show you a coat---- mr. smith. this looks like it. mr. ball. this is commission's exhibit , a grey, zippered jacket. have you ever seen this before? mr. smith. yes, sir; that looks like what he had on. a jacket. mr. ball. that is the jacket he had on? mr. smith. yes. mr. ball. now, when the deposition is completed it will be written up and you will have a right to look it over and sign it, or if you want to you can waive your signature. they will accept your waiver and send it on to the commission without it. do you have any choice on that? mr. smith. i will sign it. it don't make any difference to me. mr. ball. would you just as leave waive your signature? mr. smith. ever what that means. mr. ball. that means you don't have to sign it. mr. smith. i will sign it. mr. ball. do you want to sign it? mr. smith. yes; i will sign it. mr. ball. okay. do you have a telephone number? mr. smith. no, sir. mr. ball. well, the young lady will notify you when you can come in and sign it. i thank you very much. testimony of george jefferson applin, jr. the testimony of george jefferson applin, jr. was taken at : p.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. joseph a. ball, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. ball. will you stand up, mr. applin, and we--raise your right hand to be sworn, please. mr. applin. yes. mr. ball. do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give for this commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. applin. i do. mr. ball. will you be seated, please, and state your name for the record. mr. applin. george jefferson applin, jr. mr. ball. where do you live? mr. applin. east hull, denison, tex. mr. ball. what is your occupation? mr. applin. well, my occupation, common laborer, but i am working for phillips there in denison, service station. mr. ball. you have come into dallas from denison, haven't you? mr. applin. yes, sir. mr. ball. well, that is about miles? mr. applin. yes, sir. mr. ball. and you are entitled to get compensation for your transportation? mr. applin. yes. mr. ball. and we'll have your name and address in the record, and i will try to make arrangements for that information to take care of your expenses. you came in when? this morning? mr. applin. no; it was about minutes after o'clock, when i came in here. mr. ball. came into dallas? mr. applin. yes. mr. ball. and---- mr. applin. no; i was here at o'clock, but i had a flat and my car stalled on me about three or four blocks over. mr. ball. and you intend to return home tonight, do you? mr. applin. yes, sir. mr. ball. so, you won't have any hotel expense, will you? mr. applin. no, sir. mr. ball. now, tell me something about yourself, where you were born and where you went to school, and how far in school, what you have done since then? mr. applin. well, i was born in madona hospital in denison, and lived there pretty near all my life. mr. ball. how old are you? mr. applin. twenty-two. mr. ball. did you go to school? mr. applin. yes, sir; i went to lamar school and junior high. mr. ball. and how far did you go? finished junior high? mr. applin. no, sir; i went to the eighth grade. mr. ball. have you been beyond the eighth grade? mr. applin. no, sir. mr. ball. what did you do after that? mr. applin. well, i helped my daddy some, and got odd jobs and stuff. mr. ball. live with your mother now? mr. applin. yes, sir; i do. i live with my parents. mr. ball. your mother and father? mr. applin. yes, sir. mr. ball. you have been doing mostly common labor, have you? mr. applin. yes, sir; mostly common labor. mr. ball. ever been in trouble with the law of any sort? mr. applin. yes, sir; i have. mr. ball. what kind of trouble? mr. applin. burglary. mr. ball. when was that? mr. applin. in . mr. ball. did you do any time? mr. applin. no, sir; i got a probated sentence for it. mr. ball. that is the only trouble you have ever had? mr. applin. well, for--except for minor traffic violations. mr. ball. outside of that you haven't had any trouble? mr. applin. no, sir. mr. ball. now, november , , were you in dallas? mr. applin. yes; i believe i was. mr. ball. what were you doing here? mr. applin. well, i was working for the rollform corp. mr. ball. how do you spell it? mr. applin. well, i have got one of their checks--check stubs here in my pocket, i believe. at least i think i have. here it is [indicating]. mr. ball. what were you doing in dallas? mr. applin. working. mr. ball. working here in dallas? mr. applin. yes, sir. mr. ball. what kind of work? mr. applin. well, i was working as, open-head crane operator, and painter and front-end loader. mr. ball. did you go to the picture show that afternoon? mr. applin. yes, sir; i did. mr. ball. how did you happen to be off duty that day? mr. applin. they was installing a new cutting press for the rollers, and they did not need me, so, they let me off for days. mr. ball. for days? mr. applin. for days. mr. ball. what did you do? go to the picture show? mr. applin. yes, sir; i did. mr. ball. what time of day did you go there? mr. applin. well, actually, i went to--i was over in oak cliff, around about, i guess, about o'clock, i imagine is what time it was. i was there and the show hadn't opened up, so, i was sitting in my car listening to the radio up until the time that the show opened. mr. ball. you went in the show when it opened? mr. applin. yes, sir. mr. ball. paid your way? mr. applin. yes, sir. mr. ball. and where did you take your seat? what part of the theatre? mr. applin. about six rows down, i got in the middle aisle, about the middle of the chairs. mr. ball. middle aisle, six rows from the rear? mr. applin. yes, sir. mr. ball. and you were how far from the middle aisle into the row of seats? mr. applin. well, about--seemed quite a little while since i thought about this. i guess i was about four or five seats over from the aisle. mr. ball. from the aisle. now, did something happen there during that showing of that picture that you remember? mr. applin. well, i know this much, audie murphy introduced the picture. mr. ball. then some police officers came in there? mr. applin. no, sir; the lights came on. mr. ball. then what do you remember happening? mr. applin. i seen the officers come down the right-hand aisle. mr. ball. from the rear, or from the front? mr. applin. from the rear. mr. ball. come in from the screen side, or the place you enter? mr. applin. where you enter it. mr. ball. from your rear? mr. applin. yes, sir; came in on the right-hand aisle over against the wall. mr. ball. did he have anything in his hands? mr. applin. yes; i believe he had a shotgun. might have been a rifle. mr. ball. what else did you see? mr. applin. well, when i seen him, i was wondering what was the matter and what about the lights. mr. ball. you got up and ran up to the front? mr. applin. went to the front to find out what was happened--was happened--happening. as i was going up an officer passed me going down and i stopped to find out. mr ball. did you ask him? mr. applin. no, sir; he passed me before i got a chance to ask him. mr. ball. what did he do? mr. applin. went to the front and turned around and started back up. mr. ball. started back up the aisle? mr. applin. yes, sir. mr. ball. towards you? mr. applin. yes, sir. mr. ball. and what did you see him do? mr. applin. well, he stopped and asked two boys sitting down in the front, asked them to stand up and---- mr. ball. did he search them? mr. applin. yes, sir; they shuffled them down. mr. ball. did he search you? mr. applin. no, sir; they came on up to oswald, where he was sitting. mr. ball. where was he sitting? mr. applin. i--he was sitting, i guess, about or rows down. mr. ball. you mean from the rear of the theatre? mr. applin. from the rear. mr. ball. and how far over from the aisle? mr. applin. i guess that would be about three seats. they was sitting about two or three seats. mr. ball. what did you see him do? mr. applin. he--started off, the officer said, "will you stand up, please?" and he stood up. mr. ball. how close were you to the officer and this man when you heard the officer say, "stand up"? mr. applin. i guess it was about--it was not over four seats down from the back, rear. mr. ball. were you at the rear? mr. applin. yes, sir; i was at the rear of the show. mr. ball. you were at the rear of the show? mr. applin. yes, sir; well, there was a partition here. a partition here [indicating], and there was about, oh, i guess about four rows down from me. mr. ball. all right. in other words, the officer hadn't reached you yet, when he asked oswald to stand up? mr. applin. no, sir. mr. ball. you stood up and went toward the rear of the theatre, did you? mr. applin. yes. mr. ball. and going to ask the officer what was going on? mr. applin. yes, sir. mr. ball. then, you were about four rows away from where oswald was---- mr. applin. apprehended. mr. ball. and did you hear the officer, what he said? mr. applin. yes, sir; heard mainly what both of them said. mr. ball. what did the officer say? mr. applin. the officer said, "will you stand up, please." mr. ball. what did the man say? mr. applin. well, he just stood up. mr. ball. did he say anything? mr. applin. no, sir; i didn't hear him say anything at that time. mr. ball. and what happened then? mr. applin. well, when he stood up, the officer stepped over to search him down. the officer, oswald, or the man, took a swing at him. when he did, the officer grabbed him. mr. ball. took a swing at him with his fist? mr. applin. yes, sir; he did. mr. ball. with his left or right? mr. applin. right fist. mr. ball. took a swing at him and what happened then? mr. applin. well, the officer, i heard him say, "here he is." and during the proceeding of that, i guess about or seconds later, there was another--i think it was two officers, or one, passed me and ran down there to him. mr. ball. did you see a gun? mr. applin. well, the gun didn't come into view until after about four or five officers were there. mr. ball. then did you see a gun? mr. applin. yes, sir; but only--there was one gun. the pistol. it came into view before any of the other officers got there. mr. ball. that is what i mean. what do you say happened about that? who pulled a gun? mr. applin. well, anyhow, the officer was facing this way [indicating] and oswald was facing this way [indicating]. and then the gun was pointed out that way [indicating]. mr. ball. wait a minute. i can't follow you when you say it was "this way," and "this way," sir. you told me that this officer asked oswald to stand up? mr. applin. yes, sir. mr. ball. did he stand up? mr. applin. yes, sir; he did. mr. ball. then did he put his hand some place on oswald? mr. applin. yes, sir; along about---- mr. ball. where? mr. applin. i guess about his hips. mr. ball. then what did oswald do? mr. applin. he took a right-hand swing at him. mr. ball. what did the officer do? mr. applin. the officer grabbed him then. mr. ball. had you seen the pistol up to that time? mr. applin. no, sir; there was not one in view then. mr. ball. how soon after that did you see the pistol? mr. applin. i guess it was about--i guess it was about or seconds. mr. ball. who pulled the pistol? mr. applin. i guess it was oswald, because--for one reason, that he had on a short sleeve shirt, and i seen a man's arm that was connected to the gun. mr. ball. what did the officer do? mr. applin. well, the officer was scuffling with him there, and---- mr. ball. did you hear anything? mr. applin. well, about the only thing i heard was the snap of the gun and the officer saying, "here he is." mr. ball. you heard the snap of a gun? mr. applin. yes, sir. mr. ball. are you familiar with guns? mr. applin. well, yes, sir; i am familiar with a few guns. mr. ball. pistols? have you ever shot a pistol? mr. applin. yes, sir; i have shot my daddy's nine-shot . pistol. mr. ball. sounded like a hammer of a pistol falling? mr. applin. yes, sir. mr. ball. then what happened after that? you say several officers came down? mr. applin. yes, sir; they started wrestling and scuffling with him. mr. ball. how many of them? mr. applin. well, there was about five officers, i believe. mr. ball. did you see any officers strike him? mr. applin. i seen one strike him with a shotgun. mr. ball. how did he do it? mr. applin. he grabbed the muzzle of the gun and drawed it back and swung and hit him in the back. mr. ball. with what? mr. applin. with the butt end of the gun. mr. ball. looked like a hard blow? mr. applin. yes, sir; it--i guess it was. you could--yes, sir. mr. ball. and he struck oswald where? mr. applin. in the back. mr. ball. what part of the back? mr. applin. well, somewheres along in the middle of the back, somewheres. mr. ball. with the butt end of a shotgun? mr. applin. yes, sir. mr. ball. did you see the officer strike oswald with his fist? mr. applin. no, sir; i do not believe so. mr. ball. now, how many officers were struggling with oswald when you saw the officer strike him with the butt end of the shotgun? mr. applin. i believe about four. mr. ball. did you ever see them handcuff oswald? mr. applin. uhuh? mr. ball. did you see them handcuff the man? mr. applin. no, sir; i didn't actually see the handcuffing. mr. ball. what did you see them do after the struggle? mr. applin. well, they were scuffling, and they were over to the middle, about the far side of the aisle, and come up the other side of the aisle. mr. ball. with the man? mr. applin. yes, sir. mr. ball. and then when they went out, did they come out through the doors? mr. applin. yes, sir; they came up through and one of the officers hollered out, "don't let nobody see him," and they came in right behind me. mr. ball. in behind you? mr. applin. yes, sir. mr. ball. and went on out? mr. applin. yes, sir. mr. ball. and did you go out and follow them out? mr. applin. no, sir; i went out to the candy counter out there and the officer said, if there's anybody in there that seen it--and asked--there was about two or three, the candyman himself, and said--that one boy said that he seen him, through the front--i mean out from behind the picture where it came out--supposed to came out behind the picture. mr. ball. did you give them your name there? mr. applin. he asked my name and address and where i was staying at the time. mr. ball. later did you go down to the police station and make a statement? mr. applin. yes, sir; i did. mr. ball. when? mr. applin. well, it was after--i guess after they got everybody's name. i rode down with three officers. mr. ball. that same day, did you? mr. applin. yes, sir. mr. ball. you didn't go back to the picture show? mr. applin. yes, sir; i did. there was a patrolman that carried me back out and i was going to see the rest of it, but i never did get back in time to. mr. ball. you didn't get to see the show? mr. applin. well, i seen part of it, but i didn't get to see all of it. mr. ball. did you ever see the man they arrested at the theatre? mr. applin. no, sir; i didn't see him after that. mr. ball. now, i have talked to you a little while before we took your deposition, didn't i? mr. applin. i wasn't actually; no, sir. mr. ball. well, i mean, you and i came up---- mr. applin. oh, yes, sir. mr. ball. and we sat and talked a few minutes? mr. applin. yes, sir; we did. mr. ball. and you have told us everything that you told me before---- mr. applin. this was taken here? mr. ball. before it was taken. mr. applin. yes; i believe i did. mr. ball. this will be written up, and you will have a chance to read it and sign it. you can waive your signature and we'll forward it to the commission just as you have said it here in the way this young lady has written it up. does it make any difference to you now? mr. applin. no, sir; it don't make any difference. anyway you do it. mr. ball. you are waiving your signature then, are you? mr. applin. well, i will sign it if you want me to. mr. ball. you don't have to if you don't want to. in other words, but you may if you want to. mr. applin. i can sign it. if i sign it then you won't have any trouble with it, will you? mr. ball. well, no. mr. applin. well, then, i will sign it for you then. mr. ball. okay, fine, that is all, mr. applin. mr. applin. but, there is one thing puzzling me. mr. ball. what is that? mr. applin. and i don't even know if it has any bearing on the case, but there was one guy sitting in the back row right there where i was standing at, and i said to him, i said, "buddy, you'd better move. there is a gun." and he says--just sat there. he was just back like this. just like this. just watching. mr. ball. just watching the show? mr. applin. no; i don't think he could have seen the show. just sitting just like this, just looking at me. mr. ball. did you know the man? mr. applin. no; i didn't. mr. ball. ever seen him since? mr. applin. no, sir; didn't. i tapped him on the shoulder and said, "buddy, you'd better move," and---- mr. ball. were you scared? mr. applin. well, when i seen the gun i was. mr. ball. did you tell the police officer about this man? mr. applin. no, sir; at the time, i didn't think about it, but i did tell--i didn't even think about it when i went before the secret service man, but i did tell one of the fbi men about it. mr. ball. okay. i guess that is all, mr. applin. thank you very much. mr. applin. all right. testimony of ray hawkins the testimony of ray hawkins was taken at : a.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. joseph a. ball, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. ball. will you raise your hand and take the oath, please? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before this commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. hawkins. i do. mr. ball. will you state your name, please? mr. hawkins. ray hawkins. mr. ball. and your address, where do you live now? mr. hawkins. cortland as of today. i am moving today. mr. ball. what is your business or occupation? mr. hawkins. i am with the dallas police department. i am an accident investigator. mr. ball. how long have you been with the dallas police department? mr. hawkins. it will be years in june. mr. ball. tell me something about yourself--where you were born and your education and what you have done? mr. hawkins. i was born in dallas at parkland hospital. i attended the dallas schools except for years when i lived in denison and i served years and months in the coast guard. i worked at the post office after getting out of the service and then i worked for dallas power & light before coming to the police department some years ago. i have been in the traffic division years last month, which my primary duty is accident investigation. before this time i served about years in the radio patrol division. mr. ball. on november , , you were on duty, were you? mr. hawkins. yes, sir; i was. mr. ball. what were your hours of duty? mr. hawkins. i was working the a.m. to p.m. shift that day. mr. ball. and were you assigned some special duty because of the presence of the president in the city? mr. hawkins. no, sir; on this day i was working accidents, which is my regular duty. i was working with an officer by the name of elmer baggett who had just transferred back into accident and i was giving him a refresher course in the regular duties of accident investigation. mr. ball. do you work in uniform? mr. hawkins. yes, sir; i do. mr. ball. in the regular patrolman's uniform? mr. hawkins. yes. mr. ball. of the dallas police department? mr. hawkins. yes--the regular patrolman uniform. mr. ball. you drive an automobile? mr. hawkins. yes; i do. mr. ball. is it a marked police car? mr. hawkins. yes--it is the blue and white marked police car. mr. ball. and where were you around o'clock? mr. hawkins. i'm not sure on the time--around it--if it was about the time of the assassination--i was--we were on an accident in the block of north industrial, or in that vicinity, the first i had heard anything about this accident. mr. ball. you and your partner? mr. hawkins. yes. mr. ball. and did you hear the president had been killed? mr. hawkins. yes, i did. mr. ball. now, did you later hear that officer tippit had been killed? mr. hawkins. yes, sir; i did. mr. ball. did you make a note of the time, or do you have any memory of the approximate time that you heard that report? mr. hawkins. i would say in the vicinity of around p.m.--i'm not sure what time it was, because i didn't make any notes. as i said, we were on an accident at the time--i cleared from the call about the time we heard this information. mr. ball. and you got that information over the police radio? mr. hawkins. yes, sir; i did. mr. ball. tell me, did you receive any instructions as to what to do? mr. hawkins. no, sir; i did not. they called--i heard a citizen come in on the radio and state that an officer had been shot and it looked like he was dead. we had just finished the accident at this time and i was driving an officer, baggett, and i proceeded to oak cliff to the general vicinity of the call after checking out with the dispatcher, stating that we were proceeding in that direction. we arrived in oak cliff and there were several squads in the general vicinity of where the shooting had occurred--different stories had come out that the person was--the suspect had been seen in the immediate vicinity. mr. ball. did you go to th and patton? mr. hawkins. we drove by th and patton--we didn't stop at the location. mr. ball. where did you go then? mr. hawkins. we circled the vicinity around jefferson and marsalis and in that area, talking to several people on the street, asking if they had seen anyone running up the alley or running down the street, and then they received a call, or i believe officer walker put out a call that he had just seen a white man running to the oak cliff library, at which time we proceeded to this location. officer hutson had gotten into the car with us when we arrived in oak cliff, and there were three of us in the squad car--officer baggett, officer hutson, and myself. mr. ball. hutson is also a patrolman? mr. hawkins. yes, sir. mr. ball. a uniformed patrolman? mr. hawkins. yes, sir; he is a three-wheel officer. we went to the library and this turned out to be an employee of the library who had heard of the news and was apparently running in the library to tell the other employees there. we then, after this checked out, we then continued circling in the area around th and patton and marsalis and jefferson. we then heard on the police radio that a suspicious person was at the texas theatre, and at this time we proceeded to the theatre. mr. ball. where did you park? mr. hawkins. i parked my squad car in the alley at the rear of the theatre. mr. ball. then, what did you do? mr. hawkins. officer--i believe officer mcdonald was at the back door at the time and officer hutson and captain westbrook and officer walker and myself went in the rear door, all went to the rear door, and at this time we saw a white male there and began talking to him and he identified himself as being the manager of a shoe store next door and that he was the person who had noted the suspicious acting on the suspect, and he at that time was brought into the rear of the theatre and on the stage and he pointed the person out sitting about three or four rows from the back of the theatre on the right hand or the south side. mr. ball. that would be near the right aisle as you face the screen? mr. hawkins. yes, sir; near the right aisle as you face the screen about four rows from the rear of the theatre. mr. ball. and how many seats over from the right aisle? mr. hawkins. i would say probably three or four--i don't remember exactly. mr. ball. now, at that time you were standing behind the screen, were you? mr. hawkins. no; we had walked out onto the stage itself and could see the people sitting in the show--the house lights had been turned on--the show was still going on, but we did walk out onto the stage. mr. ball. and did you later learn that the man's name was brewer? mr. hawkins. the man whom i had been talking to? mr. ball. yes; the shoe salesman. mr. hawkins. i don't remember what his name is, but i think he did identify himself and we did have his name. mr. ball. were you armed? mr. hawkins. yes, sir; i was. mr. ball. with what? mr. hawkins. i had my service . revolver. mr. ball. did you have it out or was it in your holster? mr. hawkins. i believe i had it out. mr. ball. what did you do with it? mr. hawkins. at that time, after he pointed out the person, officer mcdonald had started up the left aisle and he stopped and talked to two boys who were sitting about three rows in front of where oswald was sitting. i continued up the north aisle or the left aisle as you would walk toward the screen, and then officer mcdonald had walked on back to this person who was seated back there. mr. ball. he was--he walked over to the right aisle, did he? mr. hawkins. he walked from the right aisle and came in from the person's right. i was about three rows from--still in the same aisle, on the left aisle and about three rows from mcdonald and oswald when i heard him say, "i've got him," or "this is it," or some words to that effect. mr. ball. did you hear oswald say anything? mr. hawkins. not at that time; no, sir; i did not. mr. ball. what happened then? mr. hawkins. they had a scuffle and i immediately ran to the location. officer hutson had come in the aisle behind oswald and mcdonald and officer walker had come in on the left-hand side and i came up in the front. i grabbed his left hand and then immediately took my handcuffs out and put them on his left hand and we brought his right arm around as soon as the gun had been removed and handcuffed his right arm with both hands behind his back. mr. ball. now, did you see oswald strike officer mcdonald? mr. hawkins. yes, sir; i did. mr. ball. with what--with his fist? mr. hawkins. it appeared he struck him with his fist. mr. ball. which one? mr. hawkins. right fist. mr. ball. what was officer mcdonald doing at that time? mr. hawkins. i remember seeing him standing beside oswald, and when i arrived where they were, both of them were down in the seat--oswald and mcdonald had both fallen down into the seat, and very shortly after i got there, a gun was pulled, came out of oswald's belt and was pulled across to their right, or toward the south aisle of the theatre. officer mcdonald grabbed the pistol, and the best i can remember, sergeant hill, who had gotten there, said, "i've got the gun," and he took the gun and we handcuffed oswald. mr. ball. did you hear any snap of the hammer? mr. hawkins. i heard something that i thought was a snap. i didn't know whether it was a snap of a pistol--i later learned that they were sure it was. i didn't know whether it was a snap of the gun or whether it was in the seats someone making the noise. mr. ball. there was some noise you heard? mr. hawkins. yes, sir; there was. mr. ball. you couldn't identify it? mr. hawkins. no, sir; i don't think so--i don't think i could say for sure. mr. ball. did you see anybody strike oswald with his fist? mr. hawkins. no, sir; i didn't see anyone strike him. they had, as i said, they had gotten back into the seat and officer hutson had grabbed oswald from behind and officer walker had him by the left arm and the gun went across and mcdonald had grabbed him by the right hand and sergeant hill grabbed the gun and at this time i handcuffed his left hand. there were several officers shortly after that arrived at the scene. mr. ball. did you see any officer there with a shotgun? mr. hawkins. i don't recall any officers. i know i had seen some officers with a shotgun, but i don't recall whether any officer had one, but it is possible that they did have. mr. ball. the men who were struggling with oswald were first, mcdonald, and you---- mr. hawkins. yes, sir. mr. ball. and who was the other man? mr. hawkins. now, officer hutson had gotten behind oswald prior to the time i got there and then also walker was on the left-hand side--on the left hand. mr. ball. oswald's left? mr. hawkins. oswald's left. mr. ball. and who was on the right? mr. hawkins. mcdonald. mr. ball. and what about bob carroll, did he come in there too? mr. hawkins. well, i'm sure bob was in there. i couldn't say where he was exactly or--i do remember sergeant hill being there, and i believe he said, "i've got the gun." i think i read an account of where bob carroll may have had the gun, but i was under the impression it was sergeant hill. i'm sure bob was there, but i don't know exactly--it was all happening pretty fast. mr. ball. did any one of these men you have described around oswald have a shotgun? mr. hawkins. i don't believe any of them--at the time that they were standing directly around oswald, had a shotgun--i may be mistaken. mr. ball. a witness testified yesterday that while they were struggling with oswald, a police officer took a gun and took it by the muzzle and struck oswald in the back with the rifle butt; did you see anything like that? mr. hawkins. no; i did not. i couldn't say that it did not happen. i didn't see from the back, but i do know that officer hutson was standing behind him and had grabbed him around the neck and i'm sure that he did not have a gun. mr. ball. hutson did not have a shotgun? mr. hawkins. no, sir; he did not. mr. ball. did oswald say anything during this struggle? mr. hawkins. i don't recall anything he said during the struggle--i do recall some remarks that he made about--that he had certain rights and that he would see "about this police brutality" or some remark he made about--that he had rights and he wasn't being handled right or something of this nature. mr. ball. did you see anybody strike oswald during the struggle except in the grabbing and holding of him--i know you grabbed him and held him, but did you see anybody strike him a blow? mr. hawkins. no, sir; i did not see anyone strike him a blow. mr. ball. afterwards, did you notice any marks on oswald's face? mr. hawkins. i did notice, not at that time, but i did notice, however, after i saw him on television that he had a bruise on the right side of his face. mr. ball. did you see that bruise there at the theatre? mr. hawkins. not at the theatre; no, sir. mr. ball. were you with the group of officers that took him from the theatre? mr. hawkins. i was walking with the group--i was not immediately beside oswald. at this time, i believe, officer walker and possibly officer lyons and paul bentley and i don't remember, but i believe those three were one of the three and maybe sergeant hill. we handcuffed him and after we had handcuffed him we walked him out to the left and immediately to the car in front. they put him in the car--i was standing beside the car and then i worked traffic for them to get out. mr. ball. as he was going out of the theatre, was he shouting or yelling? mr. hawkins. was he? mr. ball. yes. mr. hawkins. i don't remember him saying anything except this about that he had certain rights and the police brutality. mr. ball. did he say that as he was leaving the theatre, or did he say that in the theatre? mr. hawkins. it seemed like we were still in the theatre. after we got outside, i couldn't hear him say anything. there was a large crowd out front and they all started yelling when we came out the front door. mr. ball. a witness testified yesterday that as the police brought oswald from the theatre to the car, that two men were standing beside him, were walking beside him, and that another officer had his arm around his neck and under his chin so as to close his mouth--did you see anything like that? mr. hawkins. i don't remember seeing this. i walked out--the best i can remember--i was behind the group and there were at least three officers, i am sure, directly around him and maybe more, but i was behind him and walked up behind him--i don't recall anyone having him around the neck at that time. mr. ball. did you do any more work on the investigation of the assassination of the president or the killing of tippit? mr. hawkins. no, sir; the only thing i did following this--we went to the personnel bureau and made a statement, or wrote a report on the arrest, and that was the last thing i had done. mr. ball. did you see the pistol at the personnel bureau? mr. hawkins. yes, sir; i did. mr. ball. did you see mcdonald mark it? mr. hawkins. did i see mcdonald mark it? mr. ball. yes. mr. hawkins. yes, sir; mcdonald, and i believe sergeant hill marked it or possibly bob carroll. there were, i believe, two people who marked it. mr. ball. did you see anybody unload the gun? mr. hawkins. no, sir; not unload it. i believe the gun was unloaded whenever i got there, but they put oswald in the car and three or four men rode with him and then officer baggett and i came back to the station and it was probably to minutes after they got there that we arrived at the station. mr. ball. did you see the bullets? mr. hawkins. i saw the bullets--yes, sir. mr. ball. did you ever examine them closely? mr. hawkins. i looked at them and one of them appeared to have a small indentation where it looked like it might have been struck and did not fire. mr. ball. i think that's all, officer. now, this will be written up and you can read it and sign it, or you can waive signature--just as you wish--which do you prefer? mr. hawkins. i would just as soon sign it. mr. ball. all right, we will have you sign it. mr. hawkins. all right. mr. ball. thank you very much. mr. hawkins. will you notify me when you want me to sign it? mr. ball. we will give you a telephone call. mr. hawkins. you will give me a telephone call? mr. ball. yes, sir. mr. hawkins. all right. mr. ball. thank you very much. testimony of l. d. montgomery the testimony of l. d. montgomery was taken at : p.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by messrs. joseph a. ball, john hart ely, and samuel a. stern, assistant counsel of the president's commission. dr. alfred goldberg, historian, was present. mr. ball. will you stand up and be sworn? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before the commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. montgomery. i do. mr. ball. be seated and state your name, please. mr. montgomery. l. d. montgomery. mr. ball. and what is your occupation? mr. montgomery. police officer. mr. ball. you are called before the commission to give such information as you have as to the assassination of president kennedy, and you have been advised by your superiors, have you, that we have requested your presence here? mr. montgomery. i have been over here twice now already. mr. ball. you have been here before? mr. montgomery. yes; i gave one deposition on this. mr. ball. and that had to do with what subject? mr. montgomery. well, they covered about all of it, really. mr. ball. have you already testified as to the search of this texas state book depository? mr. montgomery. well, sir; some of that was in there--yes, sir. mr. griffin took it. mr. ball. did he ask you about the time you went down to the sixth floor of the texas state book depository? mr. montgomery. yes; i discussed all that, but i don't believe it's in that deposition; now, i don't believe it was in the typed deposition. mr. ball. i had better ask you the questions now. how long have you been on the police force? mr. montgomery. i have been on down there years. mr. ball. what is your job? mr. montgomery. detective in the homicide bureau. mr. ball. on november , , were you on duty? mr. montgomery. yes, sir. mr. ball. what time did you go to work that day? mr. montgomery. let me see, that morning i was working to . mr. ball. and to what work were you assigned? mr. montgomery. well, that particular morning at that time we was trying to round up some hijackers. mr. ball. were you sent down to the texas state book depository? mr. montgomery. yes, sir; i was. mr. ball. what time did you get there? mr. montgomery. i got there, i guess--it was about : or : . mr. ball. and what did you do when you got there? mr. montgomery. i reported to the sixth floor there. mr. ball. did you take part in the search of the sixth floor? mr. montgomery. well, first i reported to captain fritz, my partner and i, and he assigned us to this position over there where the boxes were. mr. ball. where was that? mr. montgomery. it would be what--the southeast corner of the building--over there from where the shooting took place. mr. ball. well, was that before the cartridges had been found or afterwards? mr. montgomery. no, sir; they had been found when we got there. mr. ball. when you got there they had been found already? mr. montgomery. yes, sir. mr. ball. what about the rifle, had it been found? mr. montgomery. no, sir; it hadn't. mr. ball. the rifle was found after you got there? mr. montgomery. yes. mr. ball. did you see anything else over in the southeast corner of that sixth floor? mr. montgomery. well, sir, as i say, there was a lot of boxes and there was a sack and there was this pieces of chicken. mr. ball. was there a piece of chicken over there? mr. montgomery. yes, sir--there was chicken bones and what not--it looked like somebody had been eating chicken there. mr. ball. where was that? mr. montgomery. it was right there with the boxes--right there on the floor. mr. ball. on the floor? mr. montgomery. yes, sir. mr. ball. all right. mr. montgomery. well, let me see, there was one piece of chicken on a box and there was a piece on the floor--just kind of scattered around right there. mr. ball. where was the paper sack? mr. montgomery. let's see--the paper sack--i don't recall for sure if it was on the floor or on the box, but i know it was just there--one of those pictures might show exactly where it was. mr. ball. i don't have a picture of the paper sack. mr. montgomery. you don't? well, it was there--i can't recall for sure if it was on one of the boxes or on the floor there. mr. ball. it was over in what corner? mr. montgomery. it would be the southeast corner of the building there where the shooting was. mr. ball. did you turn the sack over to anybody or did you pick it up? mr. montgomery. yes--let's see--lieutenant day and detective studebaker came up and took pictures and everything, and then we took a dr. pepper bottle and that sack that we found that looked like the rifle was wrapped up in. mr. ball. now, where was the dr. pepper bottle? mr. montgomery. it was over a little more to the west of that window. mr. ball. there was a sack of chicken bones with that--near that dr. pepper bottle? mr. montgomery. no; the dr. pepper bottle, the best i can recall, was sitting over there by itself. mr. ball. where was the sack with the chicken in it? mr. montgomery. it was right around where the boxes were--where the hulls there were. mr. ball. the picture was taken of the sack by mr. studebaker, and he said it was the third set of windows near the little two-wheel truck? mr. montgomery. over there by the dr. pepper bottle. mr. ball. correct. mr. montgomery. i was thinking it was right there--it was probably that other sack i'm thinking about--the one we found on the floor there that was used. mr. ball. here are two pictures, which are exhibits h and i in the studebaker depositions, which show the paper sack and the dr. pepper bottle and a two-wheel truck, and that is in exhibit h, and exhibit i shows the dr. pepper bottle and a two-wheel truck. mr. montgomery. is this the sack right here, now? mr. ball. that's right--do you remember that? mr. montgomery. i don't remember the sack being right there--i remember it was there somewhere, but exactly--i don't. mr. ball. evidently you don't know? mr. montgomery. no, sir. mr. ball. now, was there some more chicken some place there also? mr. montgomery. yes--there would be some more chicken over here around where the hulls were found. mr. ball. now, i will show you a picture of---- mr. montgomery. i know there was one piece laying up on top of the box there. mr. ball. i show you a picture which is exhibit j, which shows some boxes in the picture that's in the southeast corner there. mr. montgomery. yes, sir. mr. ball. can you tell me where the chicken was? mr. montgomery. i believe it was right up on these boxes right along in there. there's some boxes coming along in there. mr. ball. coming along in there--you mean it's outside of the view of the pictures? mr. montgomery. yes, sir; right along in here. mr. ball. and that would be to the north, of that point? mr. montgomery. yes, sir. mr. ball. and what did you see on top of those boxes? mr. montgomery. there was one piece of chicken there. mr. ball. partially eaten? mr. montgomery. yes; i believe it was partially eaten--on that picture right there--i was just looking at. mr. ball. that's exhibit j. mr. montgomery. right over here is where we found that long piece of paper that looked like a sack, that the rifle had been in. mr. ball. does that have a number--that area--where you found that long piece of paper? mr. montgomery. it's no. right here. mr. ball. you found the sack in the area marked on exhibit j to the studebaker deposition. did you pick the sack up? mr. montgomery. which sack are we talking about now? mr. ball. the paper sack? mr. montgomery. the small one or the larger one? mr. ball. the larger one you mentioned that was in position . mr. montgomery. yes. mr. ball. you picked it up? mr. montgomery. wait just a minute--no; i didn't pick it up. i believe mr. studebaker did. we left it laying right there so they could check it for prints. mr. ball. did you question any witnesses that day? mr. montgomery. let's see--that particular day--no, sir; i don't believe i talked to a witness that day. mr. ball. did you talk to any witnesses at any time? mr. montgomery. not to the assassination--no, sir. mr. ball. did you talk to witnesses that had anything to do with the shooting of tippit? mr. montgomery. well, we went out and got two of them and brought them down. mr. ball. who were they? mr. montgomery. let's see, there was a taxicab driver--whaley--one of them was mr. whaley and there was another one. mr. ball. was there a mr. scoggins? mr. montgomery. that could be his name--i just don't recall. mr. ball. do you have a report that you made of what you did? mr. montgomery. i didn't take an affidavit from him--no, sir; i took one from mr. whaley. mr. ball. now, did you attend a showup? mr. montgomery. no, sir; i didn't attend any showups. mr. ball. you didn't? mr. montgomery. no. mr. ball. but you took an affidavit from mr. whaley? mr. montgomery. from mr. whaley--yes, sir. mr. ball. were you ever present at any time when oswald was questioned? mr. montgomery. yes, sir. mr. ball. where was that? mr. montgomery. that would be the sunday morning of the th, just prior to transferring him. mr. ball. where was that? mr. montgomery. that would be in captain fritz' office in the city hall. mr. ball. who was present, if you remember? mr. montgomery. well, there was detective leavelle, detective graves, detective dhority, captain fritz, and mr. sorrels, and mr. kelley. mr. ball. do you know what was said? mr. montgomery. yes, sir; they just asked him several questions there as to why he shot the president and he said he didn't shoot the president, and captain fritz asked mr. sorrels if he would like to ask him a question and mr. sorrels would ask him one and then mr. kelley would ask him one--they would ask him about life in russia. mr. ball. do you remember anything else? mr. montgomery. no, sir; that's about all the questions i recall. mr. ball. then, was oswald handcuffed at that time, during the questioning? mr. montgomery. at that time, i don't believe he was--no, sir. mr. ball. did you leave with him? mr. montgomery. did i leave with who--now? mr. ball. leave fritz' office with him. mr. montgomery. when we started to transfer him, of course, we all went down on the elevator with him. mr. ball. he was handcuffed to whom? mr. montgomery. detective leavelle. mr. ball. and were you with the group that was taking him, transporting him? mr. montgomery. yes. mr. ball. and you have already testified, i guess, as to what happened there? mr. montgomery. yes, sir. mr. ball. i think that's all. this will be reduced to writing and it can be submitted to you for your signature, or you can waive signature, if you wish. which do you prefer? mr. montgomery. it doesn't make any difference to me. mr. ball. do you want to waive your signature? mr. montgomery. i can waive it and save having to come back and sign it mr. ball. that will be all right with you? mr. montgomery. yes, sir; that's fine. mr. ball. thank you very much for coming back. mr. montgomery. you bet. testimony of marvin johnson the testimony of marvin johnson was taken at p.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. david w. belin, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. belin. would you want to stand and raise your right hand. do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. johnson. i do. mr. belin. would you please state your name? mr. johnson. marvin johnson. mr. belin. where do you live, mr. johnson? mr. johnson. route , box , terrell, tex. mr. belin. what is your occupation? mr. johnson. police officer. mr. belin. for whom? mr. johnson. employed by the city of dallas. mr. belin. were you born and raised in texas? mr. johnson. yes, sir. mr. belin. go to school in texas? mr. johnson. yes, sir. mr. belin. how far did you go through high school? mr. johnson. i finished the eighth grade. mr. belin. you finished the eighth grade? mr. johnson. yes. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. johnson. went to work. mr. belin. by way of general background, what kind of work did you do? mr. johnson. i started out working with a dairy, and dairy farm. and went from that to ice route. from there i went to work at north american aircraft, and then the army. mr. belin. when did you go in the army? mr. johnson. infantry. mr. belin. when was that? mr. johnson. . september . mr. belin. then you were discharged in ? mr. johnson. february ; yes, sir. mr. belin. honorably discharged? mr. johnson. yes, sir. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. johnson. then i went back to aircraft. mr. belin. how long did you work in aircraft? mr. johnson. i worked there months that time, and they had a layoff. i got laid off, and i went back to peddling ice, and peddled ice for about months. well, one summer. then that is when i went to terrell and went in the dairy business for myself. mr. belin. you went what? mr. johnson. i went to terrell and went in the dairy business for myself. mr. belin. yes. mr. johnson. then i had that years, and then came here. mr. belin. so you have been with the dallas police department since what year? mr. johnson. . mr. belin. how old are you? mr. johnson. forty-three. mr. belin. what was your position with the dallas police department in november of ? mr. johnson. detective, assigned to the homicide and robbery bureau. mr. belin. are you still assigned to that bureau today? mr. johnson. yes, sir. mr. belin. as a detective? mr. johnson. yes, sir. mr. belin. on november , , were you on duty? mr. johnson. yes, sir. mr. belin. did you have anything to do with the presidential motorcade? mr. johnson. no, sir. mr. belin. at approximately what time did you find out about the shooting of the president, to the best of your recollection? mr. johnson. must have been about : , i guess. mr. belin. what did you do after you found out about it? mr. johnson. returned to the office. mr. belin. returned to your office? mr. johnson. yes. mr. belin. had you been out on duty in a patrol car away from the office at the time? mr. johnson. yes, sir. we had just made an arrest prior to checking out on a hijacking. mr. belin. did you have a chance to eat that day or not? i mean lunch. mr. johnson. no, sir; didn't eat lunch. mr. belin. well, you got back to the office. then what did you do? mr. johnson. i was instructed by lieutenant wells to go to the texas book depository. mr. belin. to go to the texas book depository? mr. johnson. yes. mr. belin. about what time did you get there? mr. johnson. around o'clock. mr. belin. where did you go when you got there? mr. johnson. to the sixth floor. mr. belin. any particular reason why you went to the sixth floor? mr. johnson. when we first arrived, we asked--we walked into the building and there was a uniform officer on duty there at the door, and we asked him if captain fritz was there, and he said yes. and we asked him where, and he said he went on up to the sixth floor. so at that time we were interested really in contacting captain fritz for any particular assignment he might want to give us, so we went on up to the sixth floor, and he was there, and that is when he assigned l. d. montgomery, my partner and myself to the scene where the shooting occurred. mr. belin. when he assigned it to you, did he say anything that this was the scene where the shooting occurred, or did he just assign an area at that time which you later found out to be the scene from which the shooting occurred? mr. johnson. we had already been there a few minutes when he told us to stay there and preserve the scene. actually at the time he told us that, we knew that that was where the shooting had occurred, because that is, the hulls were on the floor. we knew all that already. mr. belin. in other words, when you got there, or when you talked to captain fritz, the hulls, the three hulls had already been found in a particular portion of the sixth floor, is that correct? mr. johnson. yes, sir; i had heard somebody already say. i had already seen them. mr. belin. you mentioned the no. , is that how many there were? mr. johnson. yes. mr. belin. do you know or remember what portion of the sixth floor this was? mr. johnson. well, yes; they were underneath a window right near a window. mr. belin. on what side of the building was the window on, north, east, south, or west? mr. johnson. that is east. the window is actually on the south side of the building, and the window is the farthest east. mr. belin. the window would be the furtherest east window on the south side of the building, is that correct? mr. johnson. yes. mr. belin. would you call that the southeast corner of that floor? mr. johnson. yes. mr. belin. how soon after the hulls were found did you go over to see them? mr. johnson. i couldn't say. mr. belin. were you there when they actually found it? mr. johnson. well, captain fritz was already there. there is a possibility--i am pretty sure they already found that when we got up there. mr. belin. what did captain fritz instruct you to do? mr. johnson. to remain there and protect the scene. mr. belin. all right. handing you what has already been marked "rls deposition exhibit g"--the rls stands for r. l. studebaker--i would ask you to state if you know, whether or not these shell cases appear to be in the same position as they were when you saw them there? mr. johnson. there is only two that show in that photograph, that i see. mr. belin. well, i see one, two right by the window. you see those two? mr. johnson. yes. mr. belin. then there is one over here, which would be the west, by a box that is marked from "scott foresman & company." see that there? mr. johnson. yes, i see it. all i can say, at the time these hulls were mentioned, i went over there and looked. i don't remember them being that far out. mr. belin. what i am asking is your best recollection. let's take the hulls one by one. there are two hulls that appear to be right next to the bricks? mr. johnson. next to the wall; yes, sir. mr. belin. do they appear to be in the approximate position when you first saw them? mr. johnson. yes. mr. belin. does the one which is the farthest to the east appear to be as close to the next one lying at the brick wall as it was? mr. johnson. well, of course, i couldn't remember exactly how far. it was my impression that they were all three next to the wall. i could have been wrong. mr. belin. your impression, at least the best of your recollection is that this third shell which is in the picture next to the book carton, was closer to the wall? mr. johnson. i thought they were all three closer to the wall. mr. belin. when captain fritz told you to preserve the scene, what did you do? mr. johnson. now you got to remember he told l. d. montgomery, my partner, and i to preserve the scene, and we remained there near that corner. now over to the right, which would be back toward the west of the window, there was a lunch sack--a brown paper bag--and some remnants of fried chicken, and a pop bottle. and i stayed closer to that pop bottle while we were waiting for the crime lab to finish their work. mr. belin. now there was a sack and a pop bottle. was there anything else other than the sack and the pop bottle? mr. johnson. and the remnants of fried chicken. mr. belin. the remnants of fried chicken, was that right by that window, or was it by another set of windows? mr. johnson. that was by some other window. mr. belin. now there are, i believe, on the south side of the building, seven pairs of windows? mr. johnson. i didn't count them. i couldn't say. mr. belin. would you say it was toward the east, or the west, or the center? mr. johnson. where the sack was? mr. belin. yes. mr. johnson. it would be toward the west. i believe the next set of windows to my--i am pretty sure it was. mr. belin. you said it would be in the second pair of windows counting from the east wall? mr. johnson. to the west. mr. belin. is where you found it, was it between the second and the third set of windows or between the first and the second, or right by the second? mr. johnson. right by the second pair of windows. mr. belin. now you stayed over there? mr. johnson. yes, sir. mr. belin. and your partner, detective montgomery, stayed over by the first pair of windows? mr. johnson. by the corner. mr. belin. by the corner window, southwest corner of the sixth floor? were you there when lieutenant day and studebaker came in to take pictures? mr. johnson. yes, sir. mr. belin. do you know of your own personal knowledge whether anything had been moved prior to the time that they took the first set of pictures up there? mr. johnson. no, sir; as far as i know, they hadn't been moved. they weren't supposed to have been, and that was our job to keep them out of there, and nobody came in there, i am pretty sure. mr. belin. all right. now, a rifle was found on the sixth floor, was it not? mr. johnson. yes, sir. mr. belin. when the rifle was found, did you leave your post? mr. johnson. no, sir. mr. belin. what about detective montgomery? mr. johnson. no, sir. mr. belin. did you find anything else up in the southeast corner of the sixth floor? we have talked about the rifle, we have talked about the shells, we have talked about the chicken bones and the lunch sack and the pop bottle by that second pair of windows. anything else? mr. johnson. yes, sir. we found this brown paper sack or case. it was made out of heavy wrapping paper. actually, it looked similar to the paper that those books was wrapped in. it was just a long narrow paper bag. mr. belin. where was this found? mr. johnson. right in the corner of the building. mr. belin. on what floor? mr. johnson. sixth floor. mr. belin. which corner? mr. johnson. southeast corner. mr. belin. do you know who found it? mr. johnson. i know that the first i saw of it, l. d. montgomery, my partner, picked it up off the floor, and it was folded up, and he unfolded it. mr. belin. when it was folded up, was it folded once or refolded? mr. johnson. it was folded and then refolded. it was a fairly small package. mr. belin. now do you know where this sack was with relation to the first window, counting from the east portion of the south side of the building? mr. johnson. it still would be over toward the east from the windows. mr. belin. it would be east of the windows? mr. johnson. yes; right at the corner. of course, those windows are not too far from the east wall, but that sack was right in the corner. mr. belin. handing you what has been marked "rls deposition exhibit"--that appears to be g--it is picture no. , there are some pipes that appear to be in that picture, is that correct? some vertical pipes? mr. johnson. yes, sir. mr. belin. where would the sack have been found with reference to those vertical pipes? these vertical pipes, i believe, on the south side of the sixth floor near the east corner? mr. johnson. that sack would be over near the corner of the building here [pointing]. mr. belin. would all the sack be east of the pipes, or would part of the sack be sticking out west of the pipes? mr. johnson. the way it was folded, it would all have to be over here. mr. belin. your testimony then is that all the sack would have been east of the pipes. is that correct? mr. johnson. i would say that the sack was folded up here and it was east of the pipes in the corner. to the best of my memory, that is where my partner picked it up. i was standing there when he picked it up. mr. belin. you were standing there when he picked it up? mr. johnson. yes, because the crime lab was already finished where i was, and i had already walked off to where he was. mr. belin. now there was a book carton located, one standing by itself in that picture--it would be located northeast of the pipes. is that correct? mr. johnson. yes. mr. belin. did the sack appear to be as long as that book carton was? mr. johnson. i didn't compare it to that book carton. mr. belin. let me ask you this. do you remember book cartons there to the north of where the sack was found? mr. johnson. yes, sir. actually, these cartons were stacked all the way around this thing. i don't know, this book carton right here, unless that is the one that is stacked there, if i had a picture showing this whole scene--you see, there was some other cartons stacked in front of this window. now i don't know whether this is the one that was behind them or not. this might be just one sitting out over there out of the way. mr. belin. we don't have a picture here that shows all of the cartons, at least i don't have it right here at the time we are taking this deposition, that shows all of the cartons, but let me---- mr. johnson. just from memory, i would say that that sack would be a little longer than those book cartons. mr. belin. all right, what is the fact as to whether or not the penned rectangle on rls deposition exhibit g--does any portion of that rectangle represent the place where the paper was found, assuming that is the southeast corner? mr. johnson. it looks like somebody penned that in to show the sack was laying there. that would show it unfolded. mr. belin. well, what you would say then is that the penned portion is actually longer than the sack before it was unfolded, is that what you are saying? mr. johnson. yes. it shows to be here, if you are taking this as actual size. mr. belin. right. of course, this is photographed at an angle and sometimes this can be inaccurate insofar as perspective. but would this penned in be the approximate same distance from the south wall that you saw the sack? mr. johnson. well, i couldn't say exact distance. all i know is my partner picked that up right out of that corner, and how far it was from the wall in either direction, i don't know. mr. belin. would it be somewhere in the location of where the penned in rectangle is on rls deposition exhibit g? mr. johnson. yes; it would be in this corner, in the southeast corner of the building, and there were some pipes on that side. it would be in that corner--in the southeast corner of that building. mr. belin. all right, is there anything else you can remember about that sack? mr. johnson. no; other than like i said, my partner picked it up and we unfolded it and it appeared to be about the same shape as a rifle case would be. in other words, we made the remark that that is what he probably brought it in. that is why, the reason we saved it. mr. belin. did you find anything else up in the sixth floor that you feel might be relevant insofar as the investigation of the assassination is concerned? mr. johnson. no; i don't remember anything right off. anything else that was preserved as evidence? mr. belin. yes. mr. johnson. other than i know we kept the lunch sack and the dr. pepper bottle. mr. belin. you did keep the lunch sack? mr. johnson. sir? mr. belin. you did keep the lunch sack? mr. johnson. yes, sir. mr. belin. where is it? mr. johnson. we turned it into the crime lab. mr. belin. you mean your police department crime lab? mr. johnson. yes, sir. mr. belin. did you ever dust it for prints or not, or do you know? mr. johnson. well, now, the lunch sack itself, sir? mr. belin. yes. mr. johnson. i don't know whether they did or not. now that sack we are talking about, it was dusted right there at the scene. mr. belin. that is the long paper sack you found in the southeast corner? i mean as far as the lunch sack is concerned? mr. johnson. no, the lunch sack, i don't know. we turned it in, but i never did hear after that what he did with it. i am pretty sure they did use it for something. mr. belin. anything else you can think of that is relevant in any way whatsoever to the investigation of the assassination? mr. johnson. no; i don't remember anything else. mr. belin. well, we surely want to thank you for your cooperation, mr. johnson. you have the right, if you desire, to read the transcription of your testimony here and then sign the deposition, or you can waive the signing and have the court reporter send it to us directly in washington. do you care to read it, or do you want to waive the signing of it? mr. johnson. i'd better read it. mr. belin. all right, you will be contacted when it is ready. testimony of seymour weitzman the testimony of seymour weitzman was taken at : p.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. joseph a. ball, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. ball. mr. weitzman, i'm joe ball and this is lillian johnson, the court reporter. will you please stand and raise your right hand? mr. weitzman. yes, sir. mr. ball. do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before this commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. weitzman. i do. mr. ball. will you state your name? mr. weitzman. seymour weitzman. mr. ball. what is your occupation? mr. weitzman. deputy constable, dallas county. mr. ball. what is the location of your place of business? mr. weitzman. precinct which is the old courthouse, third floor, room . mr. ball. where were you born? mr. weitzman. dallas, tex. mr. ball. were you educated here in this state? mr. weitzman. partially here and indiana. mr. ball. how far did you go through school? mr. weitzman. i went through college, graduated in engineering, . mr. ball. when did you come to texas? mr. weitzman. do you mean back to texas? mr. ball. back to texas. mr. weitzman. right after the service was over and when i came out of the service. mr. ball. did you graduate from school before you went into the service? mr. weitzman. i finished up after i received my discharge. i went back to indiana to engineering school in south bend and finished my degree in . mr. ball. what school? mr. weitzman. allison division of general motors engineering school. mr. ball. what did you do when you went to dallas? mr. weitzman. went in business for myself. mr. ball. what kind of business? mr. weitzman. dresses, garments, ladies garments. mr. ball. what did you do after that? mr. weitzman. i went on the road as district supervisor and manager for holly's dress shops in new york, fifth avenue, and i supervised stores for them for approximately years. mr. ball. then what did you do? mr. weitzman. i took over as general manager of the lamont corp. which is a discount operation and the headquarters, which was galveston, tex. we had stores in dallas, fort worth, louisiana, phoenix and tucson, ariz. at the end of , i closed up all the stores, retired from the discount operation and went to work for robie love in dallas county, precinct . mr. ball. you've been there ever since as deputy constable? mr. weitzman. that's right. mr. ball. on november , , around noon, where were you? mr. weitzman. i was standing on the corner of main and houston. mr. ball. were you alone? mr. weitzman. no, sir; i was with another deputy, bill hutton. mr. ball. a deputy constable? mr. weitzman. yes, sir; he and i were standing there. mr. ball. did you see the president's car pass? mr. weitzman. yes, sir; we did. we watched the president pass and we turned and started back to the courthouse when we heard the shots. mr. ball. you say you turned and were starting back to the courthouse--what courthouse and what is the location of that courthouse? mr. weitzman. sitting on main, houston, record and so forth. we were at the back side and we turned around and were going into the main street entrance. we made maybe three or four steps when we heard what we thought at that time was either a rifle shot or a firecracker, i mean at that second. mr. ball. how many shots did you hear? mr. weitzman. three distinct shots. mr. ball. how were they spaced? mr. weitzman. first one, then the second two seemed to be simultaneously. mr. ball. you mean the first and then there was a pause? mr. weitzman. there was a little period in between the second and third shot. mr. ball. what was the longest, between the first and second or the second and third shot; which had the longest time lapse in there? mr. weitzman. between the first and second shot. mr. ball. what did you do then? mr. weitzman. i immediately ran toward the president's car. of course, it was speeding away and somebody said the shots or the firecrackers, whatever it was at that time, we still didn't know the president was shot, came from the wall. i immediately scaled that wall. mr. ball. what is the location of that wall? mr. weitzman. it would be between the railroad overpass and i can't remember the name of that little street that runs off elm; it's cater-corner--the section there between the--what do you call it--the monument section? mr. ball. that's where elm actually dead ends? mr. weitzman. yes, sir; i scaled the wall and, apparently, my hands grabbed steampipes. i burned them. mr. ball. did you go into the railroad yards? mr. weitzman. yes, sir. mr. ball. what did you notice in the railroad yards? mr. weitzman. we noticed numerous kinds of footprints that did not make sense because they were going different directions. mr. ball. were there other people there besides you? mr. weitzman. yes, sir; other officers, secret service as well, and somebody started, there was something red in the street and i went back over the wall and somebody brought me a piece of what he thought to be a firecracker and it turned out to be, i believe, i wouldn't quote this, but i turned it over to one of the secret service men and i told them it should go to the lab because it looked to me like human bone. i later found out it was supposedly a portion of the president's skull. mr. ball. that you picked up off the street? mr. weitzman. yes. mr. ball. what part of the street did you pick this up? mr. weitzman. as the president's car was going off, it would be on the left-hand side of the street. it would be the---- mr. ball. the left-hand side facing---- mr. weitzman. that would be the south side of the street. mr. ball. it was on the south side of the street. was it in the street? mr. weitzman. it was in the street itself. mr. ball. on the pavement? mr. weitzman. yes, sir. mr. ball. anywhere near the curb? mr. weitzman. approximately, oh, i would say to inches from the curb, something like that. mr. ball. off the record. (off record discussion.) mr. ball. what did you do after that? mr. weitzman. after that, we entered the building and started to search floor to floor and we started on the first floor, second floor, third floor and on up, when we got up to the fifth or sixth floor, i forget, i believe it was the sixth floor, the chief deputy or whoever was in charge of the floor, i forget the officer's name, from the sheriff's office, said he wanted that floor torn apart. he wanted that gun and it was there somewhere, so myself and another officer from the sheriff's department, i can't remember his name, he and i proceeded until we---- mr. ball. was his name boone? mr. weitzman. that is correct, boone and i, and as he was looking over the rear section of the building, i would say the northwest corner, i was on the floor looking under the flat at the same time he was looking on the top side and we saw the gun, i would say, simultaneously and i said, "there it is" and he started hollering, "we got it." it was covered with boxes. it was well protected as far as the naked eye because i would venture to say eight or nine of us stumbled over that gun a couple times before we thoroughly searched the building. mr. ball. did you touch it? mr. weitzman. no, sir; we made a man-tight barricade until the crime lab came up and removed the gun itself. mr. ball. the crime lab from the dallas police department? mr. weitzman. yes, sir. mr. ball. lieutenant day and captain fritz? mr. weitzman. i'm not sure what the lieutenant's name was, but i remember captain fritz. mr. ball. did you see captain fritz remove anything from the gun? mr. weitzman. no, sir; i did not. mr. ball. what did you do after that? mr. weitzman. after that, i returned to my office and i was called down to the city that afternoon later to make a statement on what i had seen. mr. ball. i have three pictures here which i have marked, respectively, d, e, f. i show you d first. does that look anything like the location where you found the gun? mr. weitzman. yes, sir; this is taken the opposite side the flat i was looking under. mr. ball. looking from the top side of this picture? mr. weitzman. well, i would be looking over--boone was looking the top side; i was looking under the flat. we were looking over everything. i was behind this section of books. i believe there were more books in here [indicating]. mr. ball. what do you mean "in here"? mr. weitzman. in this area [indicating] because at the time we found the gun there were no boxes protruding over the gun. mr. ball. in this area, you mean protruding over the gun? mr. weitzman. yes, sir; it was more hidden than there. mr. ball. i show you the picture marked e. does that look anything like the area where the gun was found? mr. weitzman. yes, sir; it does. mr. ball. i show you the picture marked f. is that another picture of the same area? mr. weitzman. yes, sir; as well as i remember, the gun was right in here [indicating]. mr. ball. would you mind making a mark there with a pen? that is on f. draw on exhibit f, draw an arrow. the arrow in ink on f shows the location? mr. weitzman. down on the floor. mr. ball. shows the location of the gun on the floor? mr. weitzman. yes. mr. ball. was there anything between the place the gun was found; were there any boxes between where the gun was found and the stairway? mr. weitzman. yes, sir; there was a row of boxes between the stairway and the gun because we came up the stairway and we couldn't help but see it if it was in the open. mr. ball. take e here and make a mark on e as to the location of the place where the gun was found. mr. weitzman. same area. mr. ball. the same area and the arrow marks the place where the gun was found? mr. weitzman. yes, sir. mr. ball. off the record. (off record discussion.) mr. ball. in the statement that you made to the dallas police department that afternoon, you referred to the rifle as a . mauser bolt action? mr. weitzman. in a glance, that's what it looked like. mr. ball. that's what it looked like--did you say that or someone else say that? mr. weitzman. no; i said that. i thought it was one. mr. ball. are you fairly familiar with rifles? mr. weitzman. fairly familiar because i was in the sporting goods business awhile. mr. ball. what branch of service were you in? mr. weitzman. u.s. air force. mr. ball. did you handle rifles? mr. weitzman. mostly thompson machine guns and pistols. mr. ball. in the air force, what were you? mr. weitzman. i started out as a flying sergeant. mr. ball. you flew the plane? mr. weitzman. yes, sir. mr. ball. how did you end up? mr. weitzman. i ended up flying them; ended up in a prison camp. mr. ball. where? mr. weitzman. i was overseas in japan. mr. ball. you also said at the time the rifle was found at : p.m., is that correct? mr. weitzman. i believe that is correct. i wouldn't commit myself there because i am not sure; i'm not positive that was it. mr. ball. in this statement, it says captain fritz took charge of the rifle and ejected one live round from the chamber. mr. weitzman. yes, sir. mr. ball. he did eject one live round? mr. weitzman. yes, sir; he did eject one live round, one live round, yes, sir. you said remove anything from the rifle; i was not considering that a shell. mr. ball. i understand that. now, in your statement to the federal bureau of investigation, you gave a description of the rifle, how it looked. mr. weitzman. i said it was a mauser-type action, didn't i? mr. ball. mauser bolt action. mr. weitzman. and at the time i looked at it, i believe i said it was . scope on it and i believe i said it was a weaver but it wasn't; it turned out to be anything but a weaver, but that was at a glance. mr. ball. you also said it was a gun metal color? mr. weitzman. yes. mr. ball. gray or blue? mr. weitzman. blue metal. mr. ball. and the rear portion of the bolt was visibly worn, is that worn? mr. weitzman. that's right. mr. ball. and the wooden portion of the rifle was what color? mr. weitzman. it was a brown, or i would say not a mahogany brown but dark oak brown. mr. ball. rough wood, was it? mr. weitzman. yes, sir; rough wood. mr. ball. and it was equipped with a scope? mr. weitzman. yes, sir. mr. ball. was it of japanese manufacture? mr. weitzman. i believe it was a . weaver at the time i looked at it. i didn't look that close at it; it just looked like a . but it turned out to be a japanese scope, i believe. mr. ball. didn't you, when you went over to the railroad yard, talk to some yardman? mr. weitzman. i asked a yardman if he had seen or heard anything during the passing of the president. he said he thought he saw somebody throw something through a bush and that's when i went back over the fence and that's when i found the portion of the skull. i thought it was a firecracker portion; that's what we first were looking for. this was before we knew the president was dead. mr. ball. did the yardman tell you where he thought the noise came from? mr. weitzman. yes, sir; he pointed out the wall section where there was a bunch of shrubbery and i believe that's to the right where i went over the wall where the steampipe was; that would be going north back toward the jail. mr. ball. i think that's all. do you have any desire to read this over and sign it or will you waive signature? mr. weitzman. i will waive my signature. i don't think the government is going to alter my statement any. testimony of capt. w. r. westbrook the testimony of capt. w. r. westbrook was taken at a.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by messrs. joseph a. ball, john hart ely, and samuel a. stern, assistant counsel of the president's commission. dr. alfred goldberg, historian, was present. mr. ball. would you please stand up and be sworn? do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before the commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. westbrook. i do. mr. ball. will you state your name, please? mr. westbrook. w. r. westbrook. mr. ball. and what is your address? mr. westbrook. at the present time it is daingerfield, apartment c, and another address is route , quinton. i live at both of them. mr. ball. what is your business or occupation? mr. westbrook. captain of police. mr. ball. the commission has asked us to put something in the record about everybody's past experience. can you tell me about where you were born--they don't get to take a look at you, so they would like to read about you. mr. westbrook. i was born in benton, ark., november , . i was a farm boy and came to dallas in , and went on the police department june , , and i served as a radio patrolman for approximately years, promoted to sergeant, and was a sergeant for about or years, and was promoted to captain in , and have held that position since. mr. ball. what are your duties in general, captain? mr. westbrook. at the present time i am personnel officer. we conduct all background investigations of applicants, both civilian and police, and then we make--we investigate all personnel complaints--not all of them, but the major ones. mr. ball. do you wear a uniform? mr. westbrook. well, it is optional. i don't wear one. mr. ball. on november , , were you assigned any special duty? mr. westbrook. no, sir; other than just my own routine duties. mr. ball. what were those duties that day? mr. westbrook. : to : . mr. ball. and were you in uniform on that day? mr. westbrook. no, sir. mr. ball. where were you when you heard the president had been shot? mr. westbrook. i was in my office and mrs. kinney, one of the dispatchers, came into the office and told us, and of course--it's the same as everybody says--we didn't believe it until a second look at her and i realized it was so, and so, there's a little confusion right here because everybody became rather excited right quick, but somebody, and i don't know who it was, came into my office and said they needed some more men at this texas depository building. you know, i didn't review my report before i came over here--i didn't have a chance. i just came off of vacation and they hit me with this this morning as soon as i got to the office. i can't recall whether or not it was the dispatcher's office, but i think it was--somebody in the dispatcher's office had told us they needed some more men at the texas depository building, so i sent the men that were in my office, which were then sergeants stringer and carver, and possibly joe fields and mcgee, if they were in there--it seems like mcgee was, and i think--i sent them to the building, and then i walked on down the hall spreading the word and telling the other people that they needed some men down there, and practically everybody left immediately. i sat around a while--really not knowing what to do because of the--almost all of the commanding officers and supervisors were out of the city hall and i finally couldn't stand it any longer, so i started to the texas depository building, and believe it or not, i walked. there wasn't a car available, and so i walked from the city hall to the depository building, and i would stop on the way down where there would be a group of people listening to somebody's transistor radio and i would stop and catch a few false reports, you might say, at that time, until i reached the building. do you want me to continue on? mr. ball. go right ahead, sir. mr. westbrook. after we reached the building, or after i reached the building, i contacted my sergeant sgt. r. d. stringer, and he was standing in front and so then i went into the building to help start the search and i was on the first floor and i had walked down an aisle and opened a door onto an outside loading dock, and when i came out on this dock, one of the men hollered and said there had been an officer killed in oak cliff. well, then, of course, i ran to my radio because i am the personnel officer and that then became, of course, my greatest interest right at that time, and so, sergeant stringer and i and some patrolman--i don't recall his name--then drove to the immediate vicinity of where officer tippit had been shot and killed. of course, the body was already gone, the squad car was still there, and on one occasion as we were approaching this squad car, a call came over the radio that a suspicious person had been sighted running into the public library at marsalis and jefferson, so we immediately went to that location and it was a false--it was just one of the actually--it was one of the employees of the library who had heard the news somewhere on the radio and he was running to tell the other group about kennedy. so, we returned to the scene and here i met bob barrett, the fbi agent, and sergeant stringer and barrett and i were together, and then an eyewitness to the shooting of the officer from across the street, a lady, came to the car, and she was telling us how this happened. mr. ball. where was your car parked at that time? mr. westbrook. it wasn't my car--we didn't have one. i don't know where this officer went after he let us out at the scene. mr. ball. an officer drove you down to the scene? mr. westbrook. an officer drove us to the scene. mr. ball. where were you when this lady came up who was an eyewitness? mr. westbrook. we were at the squad car--tippit's squad car--it had never been moved. mr. ball. you were near th and patton? mr. westbrook. and she was telling us what had occurred. mr. ball. do you remember her name? mr. westbrook. no; the other officers got it. mr. ball. was it a mrs. markham? mr. westbrook. it could have been, sir; i don't recall, because i directed someone there to be sure and get her name for the report, but she lived directly across the street, and she told us--or was in the process of telling us how it occurred--what she had seen, when someone hollered a patrolman hollered--"it's just come over the radio that they've got a suspicious person in the texas theatre." then, sergeant stringer, i, and agent barrett got in another squad car, and i don't know what officer was driving this one, but then when we arrived and were approaching the theatre, i directed the patrolman to turn down into the alley instead of going around to the front because i figured there would be a lot of cars at the front. there were two or three at the back. so, i and barrett--stringer went to another door, and i and barrett--we stopped at the first one--we got out and walked to this first entrance that was nearest us, and as we walked into the door we met an employee of the theatre. again, i do not know his name, but it was taken, and he pointed--i don't think i said anything to him--i think he told me, he said, "the man you are looking for--" now, right here, barrett and i became separated for a short minute or two. i think he was on the other side of the stage, and i'm not for sure, but this boy reported--he pointed to a man that was sitting about the middle--the middle row of seats pretty close to the back and he said, "that is the man you are looking for." and i started toward him and i had taken about two or three steps--down the steps. mr. ball. down the steps from the stage? mr. westbrook. from the stage--yes, sir. now, i feel sure, and at the time i think i knew--i'm not sure if i included that in the report, but i think barrett was going down the other steps. i think we separated right there and he got on the other side. mr. ball. which side were you on? mr. westbrook. i was facing the audience--i would be on the right side. mr. ball. facing the audience--that would be on the right side? mr. westbrook. i was on the right side. mr. ball. and if you were facing the screen you would have been on the left? mr. westbrook. i would have been on the left. mr. ball. the man that was pointed out to you was sitting next to the aisle, if you were facing the screen? mr. westbrook. well, he was sitting in the middle row of seats, and i don't know just exactly which--it was the third or fourth row from the back, it seemed like. mr. ball. and near what aisle? mr. westbrook. he was about the middle of the aisle. mr. ball. he was about the middle of the aisle? mr. westbrook. yes; about the middle of the aisle. so, about the time i reached the first step or maybe the second step, i noticed then officer mcdonald--of course, the stage was still dim, but i could tell it was mcdonald. i know him. he used to work for me when i was radio patrolman, and i seen him go down the aisle and this boy come up and made a contact, and they started struggling. mr. ball. you say "the boy come up," what did he do? mr. westbrook. he got up from the seat and they started fighting. mr. ball. were the lights on in the theatre? mr. westbrook. very dim ones; the picture was still running, but the lights were on very dim. mr. ball. they started fighting--what sort of fighting did you see? mr. westbrook. well, i know that i seen oswald swing at mcdonald and mcdonald grab him. mr. ball. oswald swung with which arm, would you say? mr. westbrook. i would say it would be his left fist, because from the way he was sitting facing me--i would say it would be his left fist. mr. ball. then what did you see? mr. westbrook. well, the next thing, of course, then i started running and there was probably six or seven officers that just converged on him just like that. barrett was, i think, directly behind me in the aisle--he got there at the same time i did. i yelled about two or three times, "has somebody got his gun," and finally some officer--i don't know which one it was--says, "yes; i have the gun." mr. ball. were you close enough to hear anything said by either mcdonald or anyone else? mr. westbrook. i heard oswald say something about police brutality--oswald yelled something about police brutality. mr. ball. when mcdonald first approached the man in the seats did you hear mcdonald say anything? mr. westbrook. i probably couldn't have heard this, mr. ball, from where i was. mr. ball. did you hear the man say anything? mr. westbrook. the word "brutality" or "police brutality" and i think that was just all he yelled--was said while i was in the aisle walking down to the group. there was about six or seven ahold of him at that time. mr. ball. were the handcuffs on him at the time you arrived? mr. westbrook. they were putting the handcuffs on him--they had one handcuff on one hand and they were trying to find the other one, and they were having difficulty in locating it because there were so many hands there. mr. ball. how many officers were there? mr. westbrook. in fact--that was one of the only humorous things about the whole thing--somebody did get ahold of the wrong arm and they were twisting it behind oswald's back and somebody yelled--i remember that, "my god, you got mine." i think it was just an arm that come up out of the crowd that somebody grabbed. mr. ball. did you see any police officer strike oswald? mr. westbrook. no; i did not. mr. ball. you didn't? mr. westbrook. no, i didn't. mr. ball. we had a witness here thursday, a patron of the theatre at the time, who said that at the time the officers were struggling with oswald he saw another officer who had a shotgun take the shotgun and grab it by the muzzle and strike oswald in the back with the butt of the shotgun; did you see that? mr. westbrook. no, sir; i didn't see that. it could have happened without me seeing it because half of my view was blocked from the struggle. mr. ball. did anybody ever tell you that story before? mr. westbrook. that's the first time i've heard that. mr. ball. that's the first time you have ever heard it? mr. westbrook. that's the first time i have ever heard any shotgun was in play. mr. ball. did any of the men who were approaching oswald or who approached oswald have a gun in their hand? mr. westbrook. i didn't see a gun, mr. ball; no, sir. mr. ball. did you see any men with shotguns in the theatre? mr. westbrook. in the theatre--i didn't. mr. ball. did you see any at any other time? mr. westbrook. yes, sir; i had one myself at the library. mr. ball. but did you enter the theatre with a gun? mr. westbrook. oh, no. mr. ball. did you see any officer either in uniform or out of uniform within the theatre itself that was armed with a shotgun? mr. westbrook. no, sir--not that i recall, but of course at that time i wasn't looking for one. you know, if i had been looking for one, i probably would have seen one, because i feel sure there must have been somebody come in with a shotgun. mr. ball. were you in uniform at that time? mr. westbrook. no, sir. mr. ball. what happened after that, officer westbrook? mr. westbrook. well, after oswald was handcuffed, and i was then--some way i got in the aisle in front of oswald--where this was going on, and i looked right into his face, closer than you and i, about like this---- mr. ball. that's close to a foot? mr. westbrook. yes; i'd say inches. mr. ball. ten inches. mr. westbrook. and i asked him his name and he didn't answer, and so that was the only thing. then i yelled--there was so much confusion and it was rather loud, and i yelled at the top of my voice, i said, "get him out of here. get him in the squad car and head straight to the city hall and notify them you are on the way." and so they immediately left with him. mr. ball. were you the senior officer there? mr. westbrook. possibly--i don't think there was another captain there. there was a lieutenant and then i ordered all of them to be sure and take the names of everyone in the theatre at that time. mr. ball. we have asked for names of people in the theatre and we have only come up with the name of george applin. do you know of any others? mr. westbrook. he possibly might have been the only one in there at the time--the rest of them might have been working there, because i'm sure at that time of day you would have more employees than you would have patrons. mr. ball. you didn't take the names of any of the patrons? mr. westbrook. no, sir. mr. ball. did you see any marks on oswald's face as you looked at him, as close to him as you did in the theatre? mr. westbrook. it seemed like there was a scratch or something--i don't remember exactly--when i looked at him--maybe a slight discoloration, or it might have been bleeding slightly. mr. ball. under the right eye? mr. westbrook. i believe it would be--you--yes, sir; it would be under the right eye. mr. ball. here is a picture, and who are the officers in the picture? mr. westbrook. sergeant warren on the right---- mr. ball. what is his full name? mr. westbrook. wilson f. warren, and this kid on the left--i don't know--i don't know his name. of course, i know him. mr. ball. that's sergeant warren on the right? mr. westbrook. yes, sir. mr. ball. what is his assignment? mr. westbrook. he is jail supervisor. mr. ball. and do you know when the picture was taken? mr. westbrook. no, sir. mr. ball. and in this picture it looks like there was some mark on oswald's face. mr. westbrook. yes, it looks like it might have been a little discoloration there--i think in the mug shot that shows up quite a bit more so than it does there, but you can see some. mr. ball. and also on the left eye and right forehead, is that right? mr. westbrook. well, i don't recall anything, but that little bruise. mr. ball. the bruise under the eye? mr. westbrook. the bruise under the eye whenever i looked at him. mr. ball. under which eye? mr. westbrook. i think it was the right eye--no, wait a minute, that would be the left eye--left eye. mr. ball. you do recall that? mr. westbrook. the one that was facing me--he was facing me. mr. ball. do you recall a bruise under the left eye--when? mr. westbrook. when i looked at him in the theatre, but why, as many officers as there were ahold of him, how he got out from under all the group without more than that, i don't know. just accidentally trying to straighten up, with as many officers as there were there--i don't know. mr. ball. and you think you do recall that bruise under the left eye? mr. westbrook. maybe i should put that this way, mr. ball, a bruise under the eye, because i can't be definite about which eye, but just from the picture i see, but i know i saw that bruise and due to the fact that he had hollered "brutality"--well i'm getting ahead of myself here, so i'll just quit. mr. ball. go right ahead. mr. westbrook. due to the fact that he had hollered "brutality," as soon as mr. mcdonald had arrived at the city hall with the scratch on his face, i sent him on upstairs. mr. ball. as soon as oswald arrived? mr. westbrook. no; as soon as mcdonald arrived. i had nothing to do with oswald after he got to the city hall. mr. ball. did you also see a scratch on mcdonald's face? mr. westbrook. yes, sir. mr. ball. where? mr. westbrook. i don't remember which side, but it was a rather long scratch and i had him to go to the bureau and have his picture made--there is a picture of that, which you may have in your possession. mr. ball. that was officer mcdonald--you had his picture taken immediately of his face? mr. westbrook. yes, sir. mr. ball. we will mark this as "exhibit a" in your deposition. (instrument marked by the reporter as "westbrook's exhibit a," for identification.) mr. ball. what happened after that? mr. westbrook. well, from there on i had nothing to do with him--with oswald. mr. ball. did you see him taken from the theatre? mr. westbrook. no, sir; because i went the other way. mr. ball. you went to the back? mr. westbrook. yes; he went out the front and i never saw oswald again--that's the last time i saw him. mr. ball. now, what did you do after that? mr. westbrook. i went back to the city hall and resumed my desk. mr. ball. did you ever find some clothing? mr. westbrook. that was before, mr. ball. mr. ball. when was that? mr. westbrook. actually, i didn't find it--it was pointed out to me by either some officer that--that was while we were going over the scene in the close area where the shooting was concerned, someone pointed out a jacket to me that was laying under a car and i got the jacket and told the officer to take the license number. mr. ball. when did this happen? you gave me a sort of a resume of what you had done, but you omitted this incident. mr. westbrook. i tell you what--this occurred shortly--let me think just a minute. we had been to the library and there is a little bit more conversation on the radio--i got on the radio and i asked the dispatcher about along this time, and i think this was after the library situation, if there had been a command post set up and who was in charge at the scene, and he told me sergeant owens, and about that time we saw sergeant owens pass. mr. ball. what do you mean by "command post"? mr. westbrook. well, the definition--the way we place a command post--maybe i can use another illustration. if there is some disaster, generally, as in this particular case, there should have been a central person in charge, which was sergeant owens, as he had said. the actual command post had not been established, but let me better explain a command post by a disaster area, like a fire. in other words, you set it up at a certain location on the corner of eighth and seventh, and you work from there. now, in this case we didn't have such a command post set up because one of the main reasons was because it wasn't defined a disaster area as we normally put it, but then i got out of the car after we got back in the car at the library and finally i got out of the car over on jefferson street--i would say about the or block of east jefferson. no; that would be west jefferson--because th comes through--yes; that would be west jefferson. mr. ball. was that before you went to the scene of the tippit shooting? mr. westbrook. yes, sir; that was before we went to that scene. mr. ball. that was after you left the library? mr. westbrook. after we left the library. i got out of the car and walked through the parking lot. mr. ball. what parking lot? mr. westbrook. i don't know--it may have been a used-car lot. mr. ball. on what street? mr. westbrook. it was actually on jefferson, but the place where this jacket was found would have been back closer to the alley, mr. ball. mr. ball. the alley of what? mr. westbrook. between jefferson and whatever the next street is over there. mr. ball. tenth street is the street north. mr. westbrook. what street? mr. ball. you see, the street directly north of jefferson is th street. mr. westbrook. it would be between jefferson and th street? mr. ball. and where with reference to patton? mr. westbrook. well, it would be toward town or it would be north of patton--i guess it would be east of patton. mr. ball. it would be west of patton, wouldn't it? or would it be toward patton? mr. westbrook. toward town--if i could see a map? mr. ball. well, here is a map [handed instrument to the witness]. mr. westbrook. i used to be very familiar with that. mr. ball. there is a map and you can look at it and tell us. mr. westbrook. [examining instrument.] now, i've got it located--here is the texas theatre and i'm on jefferson now. it would be cumberland, storey, and crawford--i would say it would be between crawford and storey. mr. ball. between crawford and storey on jefferson? mr. westbrook. on jefferson, between th and jefferson there. mr. ball. that would be west of patton. mr. westbrook. that would be west of patton--yes, sir; toward the theatre. mr. ball. now, you came from the library--where is that library? mr. westbrook. the library is at marsalis and jefferson, sir. it must be here on turner plaza right here. mr. ball. you drove west on jefferson, did you? mr. westbrook. we drove west on jefferson. mr. ball. and you got out of the car where? mr. westbrook. we got out of the car about here [indicating]. mr. ball. at what street? mr. westbrook. it was between two streets, and i would say it was between this storey and crawford. mr. ball. why did you get out of the car at that time? mr. westbrook. just more or less searching--just no particular reason--just searching the area. mr. ball. you were just looking around to see what you could see? mr. westbrook. yes; and at this time i had a shotgun--i had borrowed a shotgun from a patrolman. mr. ball. where did you go when you got out of the car? mr. westbrook. i walked through, and this is a car lot or a parking area, right along in here, and i don't know whether i am wrong on my location or not, but i think i'm right. mr. ball. you walked through a car lot, did you? mr. westbrook. yes, sir; and i think i came out--is that a church--there's a church right there close by. mr. ball. was there a station anywhere near there, a service station? mr. westbrook. oh, there could have been--yes, sir. there was either a used-car lot or a parking lot--that i don't know. mr. ball. well, i show you some pictures here. mr. westbrook. i would recognize it in the picture. mr. ball. this is a picture of a texaco station at the intersection of crawford and jefferson. mr. westbrook. at crawford and jefferson? mr. ball. there is a parking area behind that. mr. westbrook. this looks more like it. mr. ball. the texaco station? mr. westbrook. yes--the texaco station; and i think where this jacket was found was right along in here [indicating]. mr. ball. now, the picture you are looking at is identified as a parking lot, and on a parking area behind the texaco service station at the corner of crawford and jefferson? mr. westbrook. yes, sir. mr. ball. you walked through there, did you? mr. westbrook. i walked through from jefferson. mr. ball. from jefferson? mr. westbrook. there is an old house--the only thing--i come down by this station there--there is an old house there and some of the officers were looking it over. they had seen somebody go in it and there was quite a few officers there so i didn't pay any further attention to it. so, i walked on, and possibly--this may be it--it appears to be it right here in the corner. mr. ball. put an arrow showing the old house. mr. westbrook. i think this is it right here--i can't be positive, but i think that's it. mr. ball. make an arrow with a pen. mr. westbrook. the arrow marks the point of an old house. mr. ball. that you walked toward, is that right? mr. westbrook. yes. mr. ball. and you have marked that old house? mr. westbrook. yes. mr. ball. now, what did you do and what did you see? mr. westbrook. well, there were several officers--there were some at the back and there were some in the front, and so i just hesitated a moment and then i walked on. mr. ball. you walked where? mr. westbrook. i think i come up this way. mr. ball. by "this way" you mean towards the parking lot? mr. westbrook. towards the parking lot--yes, sir. mr. ball. behind the texaco service station? mr. westbrook. yes; behind the texaco service station, and some officer, i feel sure it was an officer, i still can't be positive--pointed this jacket out to me and it was laying slightly under the rear of one of the cars. mr. ball. what kind of a car was it? mr. westbrook. that, i couldn't tell you. i told the officer to take the make and the license number. mr. ball. did you take the number yourself? mr. westbrook. no. mr. ball. what was the name of the officer? mr. westbrook. i couldn't tell you that, sir. mr. ball. i offer this as exhibit b, which is identified as " . parking area behind texaco station," and on which the witness has marked "old house." (instrument marked by the reporter as "westbrook exhibit no. b," for identification.) (instrument marked by the reporter as "westbrook exhibit no. c," for identification.) mr. ball. i show you another picture which is identified as " . place where jacket found behind oldsmobile, license no. nl ." does that look anything like the area where you saw the jacket? mr. westbrook. yes, sir. mr. ball. where? mr. westbrook. i would say that the jacket probably, if this is the area, was probably right along in here. mr. ball. put a circle there in the general area. (witness complied with request of counsel ball.) mr. ball. the jacket was underneath a car? mr. westbrook. but, i am guessing on this--slightly underneath a car. mr. ball. what do you mean you are guessing on this--what are you guessing about? mr. westbrook. about where the jacket was found in this picture. mr. ball. you mean it was under---- mr. westbrook. it was under a car, but i don't know whether it was under the one i put it under or not. mr. ball. it might have been under one or the other of the cars, you couldn't swear which? mr. westbrook. yes, it could have been under any of the other cars, but i think it was kind of along in the middle of the parking lot. mr. ball. i offer this as exhibit b of captain westbrook's deposition. now, you don't know the name of the officer? mr. westbrook. no; i probably knew his name, but we see so many things that were happening so fast. mr. ball. do you recognize anything in that picture? mr. westbrook. (examining instrument referred to.) no; i don't. mr. ball. this is no. , which i identify for the record. (instrument marked by the reporter as "westbrook exhibit no. d," " . view of alley behind texaco station parking lot.") mr. westbrook. i still think this is the house here--i think this is the old house and this is the parking lot and i would say the jacket was found behind this row of cars. it seemed to me like there was some--more room from where the cars were from what is shown there--back this way. mr. ball. point out the old house. mr. westbrook. this one. mr. ball. mark it. (witness marked instrument referred to as requested by counsel ball.) mr. ball. point out the row of cars where the jacket was found. mr. westbrook. well, that, i don't believe i could do---- mr. ball. was it near the alley? mr. westbrook. it was near--but not this close--it don't seem to me. mr. ball. not as close as shown in the picture? mr. westbrook. it don't seem to me--i can't remember for sure. mr. ball. i offer this exhibit, westbrook no. d. mr. westbrook. now, i did, when i left this scene, i turned this jacket over to one of the officers and i went by that church, i think, and i think that would be on th street. mr. ball. i show you commission exhibit , do you recognize that? mr. westbrook. that is exactly the jacket we found. mr. ball. that is the jacket you found? mr. westbrook. yes, sir. mr. ball. and you turned it over to whom? mr. westbrook. now, it was to this officer--that got the name. mr. ball. does your report show the name of the officer? mr. westbrook. no, sir; it doesn't. when things like this happen--it was happening so fast you don't remember those things. mr. ball. then, it was after that you went over to th and patton? mr. westbrook. to th and patton--yes, sir. mr. ball. and from there you went to the theatre? mr. westbrook. yes; from there we went to the theatre, and i can't remember exactly how that i got back with bob barrett and stringer, but anyway, we got together again--probably at th and patton. mr. ball. were you in the personnel office at a time that a gun was brought in? mr. westbrook. yes, sir; it was brought to my office when it shouldn't have been. mr. ball. but it was brought to your office? mr. westbrook. yes; it was. mr. ball. and it was marked by some officer? mr. westbrook. it was marked by officer jerry hill and a couple or three more, and when they come in with the gun, i just went on down and told captain fritz that the gun was in my office and he sent a man up after it. i didn't take it down. mr. ball. did you see mcdonald mark it? mr. westbrook. he possibly could have--he was in there. mr. ball. did you see the gun unloaded? mr. westbrook. no, sir; i didn't see it unloaded. when i saw it, the gun was laying on mr. mcgee's desk and the shells were out of it. mr. ball. did you look at any of the shells? mr. westbrook. no, sir. mr. ball. did you look the gun over? mr. westbrook. no, sir. mr. ball. do you have any questions? mr. ely. yes; i have one. captain, you mentioned that you had left orders for somebody to take the names of everybody in the theatre, and you also stated you did not have this list; do you know who has it? mr. westbrook. no; possibly lieutenant cunningham will know, but i don't know who has the list. mr. ely. that's all. mr. westbrook. and i'm sorry that i'm so vague on names, but it's just--the only reason that i knew sergeant stringer, i think, that day he worked with me. mr. ball. do you have any questions? mr. stern. no, sir. mr. ball. i think that's all. thank you very much, captain. mr. westbrook. thank you, sir, mr. ball, it has been a pleasure. testimony of elmer l. boyd the testimony of elmer l. boyd was taken at a.m., on april , , in the office of the u. s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by messrs. joseph a. ball, john hart ely and samuel a. stern, assistant counsel of the president's commission. dr. alfred goldberg, historian, was present. mr. ball. mr. boyd, do you swear that the testimony you are about to give before this commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. boyd. i do. mr. ball. will you state your name, please? mr. boyd. elmer l. boyd. mr. ball. and what is your occupation? mr. boyd. i am a detective in the homicide and robbery bureau for the dallas police department. mr. ball. you received a letter asking you to appear here today, didn't you? mr. boyd. i think they received one over at the office and they notified me. mr. ball. and you have been told the purpose of this investigation is to inquire into the facts and circumstances surrounding the assassination of president kennedy? mr. boyd. yes, sir. mr. ball. i'm going to ask you what you learned during the course of your investigation. mr. boyd. all right. mr. ball. now, can you tell me something about yourself, where you were born and where you went to school and what you have done most of your life? mr. boyd. well, yes, sir. i can tell you i was born in navarro county--the particular place was blooming grove, tex., and it's about miles west of corsicana, and i was raised up about miles north of there. i attended school, well, i started at a little country school--it was pecan, was the name of the school. i went there years and then they sent me to blooming grove and i started to school in my second grade. the reason i was in the second grade--i had to go through a primer before i got in the first grade--i didn't fail--i just had to go through this primer before i got in the first grade, and i graduated from high school at blooming grove in and i went into the navy and served for years, i believe i served about months in the navy--i joined and i went through boot training at san diego, went from there to newport, r. i., and caught my first ship, the uss kenneth d. bailey. i don't recall just how many months i spent on that--somewhere around or months, i've forgotten, and then they sent me to--i transferred from that ship and went on the uss cone, that's another destroyer [spelling] c-o-n-e, and along about the first part of january, i believe, in , they transferred me to pensacola where i caught my third destroyer, the uss forrest royal, and we operated in and out of there until i got out of the navy, and i believe it was about the first day of april , when i was discharged, and i came to dallas and i have been here in dallas ever since. i went to work on the police department may , . prior to that i worked, i believe, about years for the gas company and i started out reading gas meters, and then i went into collecting, and i was a collector for the gas company when i came on the police department. i think i worked a couple of more places before then--one for a printing company down here on cockrell, down here by sears & roebuck for a while, but i didn't stay there long. mr. ball. how long have you been in homicide? mr. boyd. i came in there on october , i believe, in . mr. ball. november , , what were your hours of duty? mr. boyd. well, my hours of duty on november , , i believe, was to midnight. mr. ball. so, on that day you went to work earlier? mr. boyd. yes, sir; i did. mr. ball. what time? mr. boyd. i came to work at o'clock. is it all right for me to go by this? mr. ball. i see you have there a report that is entitled "report on officer's duty in regard to the president's murder, r. m. sims, no. , and e. l. boyd, no. ." mr. boyd. yes; we are partners. mr. ball. did you prepare that report yourself? mr. boyd. he and i together prepared it. mr. ball. when did you prepare it? mr. boyd. let me see--the last part of november--i'm not sure of the date. mr. ball. was it within a week after the events took place that are recorded there? mr. boyd. i would say so; yes. mr. ball. you dictated it to a secretary? mr. boyd. well, i wrote it out in longhand and carried it to the secretary and she typed it up. mr. ball. it was written out in your longhand? mr. boyd. yes, sir. mr. ball. do you have those longhand notes? mr. boyd. no, sir; i do not. mr. ball. this report has already been attached to officer sims' deposition as exhibit a, so we have read it. mr. boyd. yes, sir. mr. ball. during the course of your work, did you make notes of what you were doing in a notebook? mr. boyd. well, i made notes, and i believe i had a notebook. mr. ball. did you make it a habit of carrying a notebook with you? mr. boyd. yes, sir. mr. ball. when you work? mr. boyd. yes. mr. ball. and you just jot things down as they occur? mr. boyd. yes, sir. mr. ball. do you have that notebook with you? mr. boyd. no; i do not. mr. ball. do you know where it is? mr. boyd. no, sir; right offhand, i don't know where it is. part of the time, you know, i just took a sheet of paper and put down the particular times, you know, and after i fixed this--i don't recall what i did with it. i may have torn it up. mr. ball. you didn't have a regular notebook that you kept with you at all times? mr. boyd. i had a regular notebook, but i didn't put everything in it, i'm sure. mr. ball. this notebook that you had on november , , have anything in it with respect to what you did on the d and the d of november? mr. boyd. of --i don't recall if i have these showups in there or not--it seems like i did. mr. ball. do you have it with you? mr. boyd. no; i do not. mr. ball. can you get it for me? mr. boyd. i probably could if i have it. mr. ball. will you look it up? mr. boyd. i will look for it. mr. ball. i'll be down to the police department tomorrow morning at o'clock and will you look it up between now and then and then let me see it if you still have it? mr. boyd. all right. mr. ball. i'll be up there in your department--near captain fritz' office. mr. boyd. what time--at o'clock? mr. ball. at o'clock in the morning. mr. boyd. i'll be there--i come on at . mr. ball. you come on at ? mr. boyd. yes. mr. ball. then, i'll see you in the morning. mr. boyd. all right. mr. ball. on this morning of november , you had been ordered to work early; why was that? mr. boyd. well, president kennedy was coming into dallas and i was assigned to work with captain fritz and detective sims out at the trade mart. mr. ball. where did you hear that the president had been shot? mr. boyd. yes; i heard that. mr. ball. you heard that over the radio, didn't you? mr. boyd. well, i believe it was around : when chief stevenson called and he talked to captain fritz out at the trade mart and he told him that--captain fritz told me that chief stevenson told him that the president had been involved in an accident down at the triple underpass and was on his way to parkland. mr. ball. did you go over there? mr. boyd. when we got out of the car, we checked, i believe, with--mr. sims called in on the radio and they told us he had been shot and we went to parkland hospital and pulled up to the emergency and saw there were a lot of people out there, but we saw chief curry out in front of the emergency there and he advised us to go back down to the scene of where we thought the shooting had occurred, down at the texas book depository, and mr. sims and captain fritz and sheriff decker was also out there, and he rode back down with us. mr. ball. and you went to the school depository building, did you? mr. boyd. yes, sir. mr. ball. and you were told by chief curry to go to the school depository building at that time? mr. boyd. yes; down at the scene and that's where we had heard that they thought that the shot came from--from the texas book store. mr. ball. where were you when you first heard that? mr. boyd. we were at the trade mart when we heard that--pulling out--we were on our way to parkland hospital from the trade mart, pulling out in the car. mr. ball. now, when you arrived down here at the building, what did you do? mr. boyd. well, we went outside the building and we made two or three stops going up, you know, at different floors, and when we got up to the top floor--i believe it was the top one--i think it's the seventh floor, and someone called us and said they had found some hulls, rifle hulls, down on the sixth floor, i believe it was the sixth floor. mr. ball. and you were with whom at that time? mr. boyd. i was with captain fritz and detective sims. mr. ball. did you go down to the sixth floor? mr. boyd. we stopped at the sixth floor--you say, did we go down to the sixth floor? mr. ball. when you heard that they found some hulls, just tell us what you did. mr. boyd. we went down to the sixth floor and found the hulls over on the southeast corner of the building and they had some books, i suppose it was books--boxes of books stacked up back over there that way. mr. ball. did you see the hulls on the floor? mr. boyd. yes. mr. ball. did you see anything else around there where the hulls were on the floor? mr. boyd. well, over to the west there was some paper sacks, and i think some chicken bones up on top of some boxes. mr. ball. that was west? mr. boyd. right; yes, sir. mr. ball. near the windows? mr. boyd. yes, sir; they were near the windows. mr. ball. how far west from where the hulls were located? mr. boyd. oh, i would say roughly between and feet, probably. mr. ball. where, with reference to the rows of windows--there are pairs of windows--how many pairs of windows away from where the hulls were located did you see the paper sack and chicken bones? mr. boyd. let me see--i don't recall just how many rows of windows from there it was. they are in rows of two, now, i'm not sure, i think it was in front of the third or fourth window over from the southeast corner. mr. ball. third or fourth? mr. boyd. yes. mr. ball. pair of windows? mr. boyd. yes, sir; now--pair of windows--let's see. mr. ball. the windows are in pairs on that side, on the elm street side--now, what sort of sack was it? mr. boyd. the best i remember it was just a brown paper sack--it looked like a lunch sack. mr. ball. about the size of a lunch sack? mr. boyd. yes. mr. ball. did you see any other paper sack around there? mr. boyd. i don't recall any if i did. mr. ball. did you see any brown wrapping paper near the window where the hulls were found, near the windows alongside which the hulls were found? mr. boyd. i don't believe i did. mr. ball. what else did you see? mr. boyd. i just saw those stacks of books up there, and after we had been up there a while, i saw a rifle back over toward the southwest corner over there. mr. ball. where was that located? mr. boyd. it was down between some boxes. mr. ball. now, did you see any pictures taken of the hulls, photographs taken of the hulls? mr. boyd. well, let's see, detective studebaker and lieutenant day, i believe, came up there and they were taking pictures over there at the scene of the hulls. mr. ball. and what about where the rifle was found, did you see pictures taken there? mr. boyd. yes; i saw pictures taken over there. mr. ball. by whom? mr. boyd. lieutenant day. mr. ball. did you see anything else on the sixth floor there? mr. boyd. i saw a lot of officers. mr. ball. did you find anything yourself? mr. boyd. not on the sixth floor--i don't believe so. mr. ball. what time did you leave there? mr. boyd. well, i think i've got it down here somewhere--near o'clock--i believe, but let me check to make sure. it would have been between : and o'clock. mr. ball. where were you when you heard the rifle had been found? mr. boyd. i was over near the scene of where the shells had been found. mr. ball. did you see captain fritz handle the rifle after it had been found? mr. boyd. i don't believe so. mr. ball. did you see him eject anything from it? mr. boyd. let me see, now, i believe they did get a shell out of it after lieutenant day came over there. mr. ball. did you see it, or are you just telling us what you heard? mr. boyd. well, i don't believe i saw him get it out. mr. ball. you heard about it? mr. boyd. yes, sir. mr. ball. you left there and went up to the police department, didn't you? mr. boyd. well, when we left there, we started to go to irving, but someone--when we got downstairs--someone told captain fritz that sheriff decker wanted to see him over in his office. mr. ball. you say you started to go where? mr. boyd. irving, tex. mr. ball. where did you get the address in irving, tex., or the place to go to in irving, tex.? mr. boyd. captain fritz got it from some man there on the sixth floor. he came up and talked to him a minute and then he told mr. sims and i that we should check this lee harvey oswald out, and that was the address they gave us--it was in irving, tex. mr. ball. and what did you do then? mr. boyd. we started to go over there and when we got downstairs, like i said, someone told captain fritz that sheriff decker wanted to see him a minute before he left, and we went in there and while we were in there we learned that the man that had shot officer tippit, we thought was the man, was on his way up to our office and captain fritz wanted to go by there and we carried him there. mr. ball. you were in decker's office when you heard that a man had been arrested for the murder of tippit? mr. boyd. yes; we heard about tippit getting shot when we were up on the sixth floor. mr. ball. then, fritz told you to go to irving, didn't he? mr. boyd. yes, sir; we started to irving. mr. ball. where were you when you heard the man had been arrested, the suspect for the murder of tippit? mr. boyd. well, i think we was still in the texas book depository when we heard about him being arrested over there. mr. ball. did you go to decker's office with fritz? mr. boyd. yes sir. mr. ball. and then you went with fritz up to your office? mr. boyd. yes, sir. mr. ball. and did fritz send somebody else out to irving, or do you remember? mr. boyd. i think later on, i believe, he sent someone else out there. mr. ball. he told you to stay there at the police department, did he? mr. boyd. yes, sir. mr. ball. what did you do when you got there? mr. boyd. well, we went in and there was a good many people there--i don't recall who all was there--i know we talked to lieutenant baker, and he told us that the man that shot tippit was in the interrogation room and about minutes or so after we were in the office, we took lee harvey oswald out of there and brought him into captain fritz' office and he talked to him in there. mr. ball. tell us about what time of day that was? mr. boyd. i believe it was around : when we took him out in there; yes, sir. mr. ball. and who was there in the room with oswald at that time? mr. boyd. with oswald at that time--? mr. ball. you took oswald into fritz' office about : ? mr. boyd. yes, sir. mr. ball. who was there besides oswald? mr. boyd. well, captain fritz, and let me see, there was some fbi agents. mr. ball. do you remember their names? mr. boyd. i know one came in just shortly thereafter and i remember mr. bookhout and mr. hosty came in right after we got in there. mr. ball. and who else was there? mr. boyd. mr. hall and mr. sims; m. g. hall is our other partner. mr. ball. he's your other partner? mr. boyd. yes, sir. mr. ball. and sims was there, and was there a secret service man in there? mr. boyd. let me see--i think there was a secret service man there, but i don't recall--i don't know what his name was. mr. ball. do you remember what was said? mr. boyd. well, i don't remember exactly what was said. mr. ball. well, in general, what was the substance of what was said? mr. boyd. well---- mr. ball. give me the substance. mr. boyd. well, i knew captain fritz asked him his name. mr. ball. what did he say? mr. boyd. i think he told us his name. i think when he asked him--i'm sure he told him his name because he would talk for a while and then he would quit. mr. ball. did he ask him where he lived? mr. boyd. yes, sir; i think he asked him where he lived. mr. ball. what did he say? mr. boyd. he said he lived over on beckley. mr. ball. did he give the address? mr. boyd. i believe that he said, well, i know he gave an address--i know he gave an address but he didn't say if it was north or south--i remember that--he didn't say if it was north beckley or south beckley and i remember another thing--mr. hosty came in and identified him himself, you know, as he came in. mr. ball. what do you mean "identified him"? mr. boyd. he took his identification out of his pocket and put it down there in front of him and told him who he was with. mr. ball. he told oswald his name and who he was with? mr. boyd. yes, sir. mr. ball. what else happened? mr. boyd. well, they participated in the interrogation--mr. hosty asked him some questions and he was pretty upset with mr. hosty. mr. ball. what do you mean by that, what gave you that impression--what happened? mr. boyd. well, just by oswald's actions, he said he had been to his house two or three times talking to his wife and he didn't appreciate him coming out there when he wasn't there. mr. ball. is that what he said to hosty? mr. boyd. yes, sir. mr. ball. anything else? mr. boyd. i don't recall--i know mr. hosty asked him several questions and finally he jumped up and hit the desk, oswald did, and sat down, and like i say, he was pretty upset. mr. ball. was he handcuffed at that time? mr. boyd. yes; i believe he was handcuffed. mr. ball. was he handcuffed with his hands behind him? mr. boyd. no, sir. mr. ball. had his hands been handcuffed behind him before he came into the room? mr. boyd. i couldn't say if they had or not--they could have been. mr. ball. do you know whether the handcuffs were changed after he got in the room? mr. boyd. they could have been changed after he got in the room--i'm not certain. mr. ball. who changed them? mr. boyd. i don't recall. mr. ball. now, when oswald jumped up and struck the desk, he struck the desk with what? with his hand? mr. boyd. with his hands. mr. ball. what did hosty ask him before that? mr. boyd. he had asked him about a trip to mexico city? mr. ball. who did? mr. boyd. mr. hosty. mr. ball. what did oswald say? mr. boyd. he told him he hadn't been to mexico city. mr. ball. what else? mr. boyd. i don't recall just exactly--i think that the words that he used when he was talking to mr. hosty was that he had been out there and accosted his wife, i believe that's the words that he used and like i said, after he talked to him, he said he didn't appreciate him coming out there to his house. mr. ball. what was it that hosty said before oswald got up and struck the desk with his hand--what question did he ask? mr. boyd. i don't remember what the question was. i know it had something to do with--let me see--i'm not sure if he was still talking to him about his wife or the trip to mexico city. mr. ball. you remember he did ask him if he took a trip to mexico? mr. boyd. yes, sir. mr. ball. oswald said he had not? mr. boyd. he said he had not been to mexico. mr. ball. and what did hosty say to that? mr. boyd. he asked him if he denied being to mexico city--i've just forgotten--it wasn't too awful long before that--i don't recall just exactly what time that he said--i know it was something recent. mr. ball. what did oswald say? mr. boyd. he said he had not been there. mr. ball. do you remember anything else that was said? mr. boyd. no, sir; right offhand--i don't. mr. stern. did he ask him anything about russia? mr. boyd. yes, sir; something was asked him--i don't recall who asked him about that, and he told us about going over to russia, i believe he was there in , or something like that--about . i'll tell you, i didn't keep notes in there because of the fact i was sitting right beside oswald--right in front of him--more or less. mr. ball. did anybody keep notes? mr. boyd. i saw the fbi man writing--they had a little book--across the table over there. mr. ball. did you have any microphones in there to record the conversation? mr. boyd. no, sir. mr. ball. do you as a practice record the interrogations of your prisoners? mr. boyd. no, sir; we don't. mr. ball. how long did this take--how long was he questioned at this time? mr. boyd. let me see--we took him down to the first showup right after o'clock, i think i have the exact time here-- : is when we left. mr. ball. was he in captain fritz' office from the time you took him in there--what time was that? mr. boyd. at : - : . mr. ball. from : until o'clock? mr. boyd. yes, sir. mr. ball. now, you took him into the first showup, did you? mr. boyd. yes, we left captain fritz' office at : . mr. ball. who picked the men to go in the showup with him? mr. boyd. who picked the men? mr. ball. yes. mr. boyd. i don't recall who picked those men. mr. ball. did you? mr. boyd. no, sir; i didn't. mr. ball. did sims? mr. boyd. i don't recall if he did--i don't recall who picked those men. mr. ball. who were the men in this showup? mr. boyd. well, one of them's names was--we call him bill perry, his name is william e. perry, he's a police officer and he was no. ; and we had lee oswald, was no. ; and r. l. clark was no. ; and don ables was no. . mr. ball. the no. man was a clerk there in the jail, was he? mr. boyd. i believe he was a clerk down in the jail office. mr. ball. is it usual to have police officers show up with prisoners? mr. boyd. well, i have seen them in there before--i mean--it isn't done real often. mr. ball. it's unusual to use officers to showup with prisoners? mr. boyd. well, i would say so, but i know that there has been officers. mr. ball. is that usual to use don ables, the clerk, in a showup? mr. boyd. no, sir. mr. ball. it is unusual? mr. boyd. yes. mr. ball. the usual thing is to have other prisoners come in handcuffed with the suspect, isn't it? mr. boyd. yes. mr. ball. do you know why that wasn't done in this case? mr. boyd. no; i do not. mr. ball. when did you first learn that officers were going to go with you and with oswald into the showup? mr. boyd. when we got ready for the showup. mr. ball. did you hear anybody direct them to go into the showup with oswald? mr. boyd. no, sir. mr. ball. you say when you got ready for the showup, that would mean where--where were you when you heard that officers were going to take part in the showup? mr. boyd. well, i guess it was down in the jail office. we took lee oswald down on the elevator and met the rest of them there in the jail office in the lobby there, to the best of my recollection. mr. ball. before you went into the showup, did you search oswald? mr. boyd. yes; i did. mr. ball. and what did you find? mr. boyd. i found five . shells, i believe it was five. mr. ball. live? live shells? mr. boyd. yes, sir. mr. ball. what did you do with them? mr. boyd. well, i put them in an envelope and put them with the rest of the property up there to be turned in. mr. ball. did you put any mark on them? mr. boyd. let me see--i can look and see. mr. ball. i will show you commission exhibit in an envelope, will you take a look at that--at the cartridges? mr. boyd. yes--i got my mark on them. mr. ball. you have your mark on all five of them? mr. boyd. i have my mark on the first three--yes, sir--i have my mark on all of them. mr. ball. on all five of them? mr. boyd. yes, sir. mr. ball. you put those marks on there, did you? mr. boyd. yes, i did. mr. ball. now, looking those cartridges over, can you tell me whether these five cartridges, which constitute commission exhibit , are the cartridges which you took from oswald? mr. boyd. yes; they are. mr. ball. and where were you when you put the mark on them? mr. boyd. i was back up in my office. mr. ball. when you first took them from oswald, where did you put them? mr. boyd. i put them in my pocket. mr. ball. and after you were back in the office, you put a mark on them, did you? mr. boyd. yes. mr. ball. and turned them over to whom? mr. boyd. well, let me see--it seems like we had a drawer there where we had some more property, where we put it all in there--you know, where they had the other stuff--i have forgotten just exactly where it would be. mr. ball. you turned them over to someone in the police department? mr. boyd. yes, sir. mr. ball. now, the showup was conducted and what side of the showup were you on? stage side or out front? mr. boyd. i was right next to the door on the inside, where you go into that showup room from the room leading into the jail office. mr. ball. who asked the questions? mr. boyd. let me see--at one of the showups--i've forgotten whether it was on this particular one--whether it was someone out from--sims asked him some questions in one of those showups. mr. ball. did you ever ask any questions? mr. boyd. not that i recall--i don't believe i did. mr. ball. how were these men dressed that were in this showup? mr. boyd. well, let me think--some of them had coats and slacks and one of them--let's see--i don't recall what color, but some of them--i don't believe any of them had a tie on--the officers had taken their ties off and i think ables, i believe, was in his shirt sleeves. mr. ball. without a tie--did he have a tie on? mr. boyd. no, sir; i don't believe so. mr. ball. ables was in his shirt sleeves. what about the two officers, perry? mr. boyd. now, i remember perry had on a coat, but he didn't have his shirt buttoned back up at the top, i remember that. mr. ball. what about clark? mr. boyd. as i remember, clark had on a white shirt. now, i'm not sure--well, i'm not sure if he had on a coat or not, but i remember seeing him in a white shirt as he came in. mr. ball. were they manacled--handcuffed? mr. boyd. yes; they were handcuffed. mr. ball. all four of them? mr. boyd. yes--handcuffed together. mr. ball. what did oswald have on? mr. boyd. well, he had on some--i believe it was dark slacks--it seems like it was a brown shirt he had on--he had on a long-sleeved shirt. it seems like he had on a jacket when he first came up there--i'm not too sure about that jacket--i know he had on a sport shirt and slacks. mr. ball. well, his clothes were a little rougher in character than the other three, weren't they? mr. boyd. well, could have been. mr. ball. the other three were better dressed than oswald, would you say? mr. boyd. well, yes, sir; i would say they probably were. mr. ball. oswald had a shirt that had a frayed elbow, didn't he, a hole in the elbow, didn't he? mr. boyd. i don't recall if he did or not--i'm not sure. mr. ball. now, when they asked questions of oswald at this showup, did he reply? mr. boyd. i believe he did at that one--i believe he did reply. mr. ball. was he angry? mr. boyd. i don't believe he was too angry. mr. ball. did he shout or yell in a loud voice? mr. boyd. i don't recall him shouting. mr. ball. he didn't shout or speak in a loud voice at this time? mr. boyd. no. mr. ball. did he at some other showup protest? mr. boyd. i heard he did, but i don't know. mr. ball. were you present? mr. boyd. i wasn't present at that one. mr. ball. you weren't present at any time in which he made any protest of the type of showup? mr. boyd. no, sir; i don't believe so. mr. ball. this day--this first showup--did he protest that it was not a fair showup? mr. boyd. i don't recall if he did. mr. ball. did he at any time tell you after the showup that he didn't think it was fair to put those men in with him? mr. ball. he didn't tell me that--no, sir. mr. ball. did he ever tell you that any showup had been unfair? mr. boyd. not that i recall. mr. ball. now, did you hear any conversation that went on in the audience part of the showup? mr. boyd. no, sir; i couldn't--i don't recall any of it--i couldn't hear anything. mr. ball. did you know any of the witnesses that were out there? mr. boyd. i couldn't see them. mr. ball. did you take any witnesses' statements from people who were out in the audience? mr. boyd. no, sir; i didn't. mr. ball. what did you do after that showup? mr. boyd. i took him back--i took lee oswald back to captain fritz' office. mr. ball. what time did you get him back there? mr. boyd. well, we left in there, i think it was : --i believe--yes; that was by my watch. i was just going by my watch; it could have been off. mr. ball. who was present at that interrogation? mr. boyd. well, let me see--i don't recall who was up there--i think there was an fbi agent and i think a secret service man was up there and i don't recall the names of the ones that was there. mr. ball. was there only one fbi agent at that interrogation? mr. boyd. well, it seems like that's all there was up there--just one. i think another one came in--now, i never did know--there was another one that came in--now, i never did know--then there was another one that came in, but i didn't ever know if he was secret service or an fbi man--i never did know. but someone--i believe, called him back out right after he got in there, but i'm not sure. mr. ball. do you know the names of the fbi agents? mr. boyd. no, sir. mr. ball. how about the secret service? mr. boyd. i don't know their names. mr. ball. was there a secret service man there? mr. boyd. i think there was a secret service man there. mr. ball. more than one? mr. boyd. just one. mr. ball. do you know his name? mr. boyd. let me see if i have it here. mr. ball. was kelley there? mr. boyd. mr. kelley was there at one interrogation. mr. ball. how long did this one last that started at : ? mr. boyd. let me see--i don't know, but at : we took him back downstairs for another showup. mr. ball. do you think it lasted hours, the interrogation in fritz' office? mr. boyd. well, no, sir; i don't think they were in there that long. mr. ball. did you feed oswald at any time? mr. boyd. mr. hall--i don't know--i believe someone asked him if he wanted anything and he said he didn't. mr. hall finally gave him a cup of coffee--he finally took a cup of coffee from mr. hall--i don't recall just exactly the time--that's m. g. hall. mr. ball. he's one of your partners? mr. boyd. yes, sir [spelling] h-a-l-l, and i think--let me see--i know that he gave him a cup of coffee. mr. ball. well, from the time that you first took oswald into your custody after : or so, you said, until you put him in jail that night about : , or : , did he have anything to eat? mr. boyd. i don't believe so because he said he didn't want anything. mr. ball. did you eat? mr. boyd. i ate real late that night--i don't remember just what time it was. mr. ball. how late? mr. boyd. i think i ate around o'clock--i'm not sure about that--it could have been . mr. ball. now, in this interrogation that started about : , do you remember what was said? mr. boyd. no, sir; i sure don't. mr. ball. was oswald handcuffed? mr. boyd. yes, sir; i think he was handcuffed. mr. ball. were the handcuffs in front or behind? mr. boyd. they were in front of him, i believe, still. mr. ball. do you remember anything that took place at that interrogation--anything that was said? mr. boyd. no, sir--i sure don't. mr. ball. now, at : there was another showup? mr. boyd. yes. mr. ball. and who was present at that showup? mr. boyd. we had the same showup as we had had before and they were numbered the same as they were before. mr. ball. were the men dressed any differently? mr. boyd. no, sir; they were dressed like they were before. mr. ball. and do you know who conducted the showup--asked the questions? mr. boyd. now, i believe that this is the one that mr. sims asked some questions. mr. ball. do you know who it was that asked the questions at the first showup that afternoon? mr. boyd. no, sir; i do not. mr. ball. was there a mr. leavelle on duty that day? mr. boyd. mr. leavelle was down there, i believe, on that day. mr. ball. did he ask questions at any of the showups? mr. boyd. i think he did, but i'm afraid to say for sure because i don't really know. mr. ball. at the second showup, did oswald answer the questions--at : ? mr. boyd. yes; i think he answered the questions. mr. ball. was he angry? mr. boyd. i don't recall him being angry. mr. ball. did he talk louder than the other three men? mr. boyd. not especially that i noticed. mr. ball. did you hear any of the conversation that went on in the audience part of the showup? mr. boyd. no, sir. mr. ball. did you hear anything that was said to the witnesses, or what they said to the officers? mr. boyd. no, sir. mr. ball. what did you do after that showup? mr. boyd. we took him back up to captain fritz' office. mr. ball. that was about what time? mr. boyd. i think it was : or when we left the showup room when we took him there. mr. ball. who was present in captain fritz' office at that time? mr. boyd. well, that was when justice of the peace david johnston [spelling] j-o-h-n-s-t-o-n, and our assistant district attorney, bill alexander, william f. alexander, i believe is his true name--they came in with captain fritz. mr. ball. oswald was there too, was he? mr. boyd. yes. mr. ball. what took place there? mr. boyd. well, captain fritz signed a murder complaint against lee harvey oswald and that was for the murder of j. d. tippit. mr. ball. was there some conversation that took place there at that time in front of oswald? mr. boyd. yes, sir. mr. ball. what was it, that you can remember? mr. boyd. well, i believe judge johnston, i believe, read the charge to oswald, and--well, i don't recall the rest of that conversation. mr. ball. do you remember what oswald said? mr. boyd. no, sir. mr. ball. at any time in any of the interrogations did you ever hear of anyone accuse oswald of having shot officer tippit? mr. boyd. yes, sir--i heard--i believe i heard captain fritz talk to him about shooting officer tippit--i don't remember what interrogation it was in. mr. ball. what did oswald say? mr. boyd. he said he didn't shoot anyone. mr. ball. did you ever hear anybody accuse oswald of shooting the president, president kennedy? mr. boyd. i remember hearing them talk to him about shooting the president. mr. ball. who talked to him about it? mr. boyd. i believe it was captain fritz. mr. ball. what did oswald say? mr. boyd. he said he didn't shoot anyone. mr. ball. now, do you remember what oswald said when judge johnston read the charge to oswald? the charge of murder of tippit, if he said anything? mr. boyd. i think he said something, but i cannot tell you what it was. mr. ball. you don't recall that? mr. boyd. no, sir. mr. ball. oswald did make some statement, though? mr. boyd. i believe he said something--yes, sir. mr. ball. did he ask for a lawyer? mr. boyd. well, let me see, he wanted to get in touch with a lawyer--i believe it was a lawyer by the name of abt [spelling] a-b-t in new york city. mr. ball. when did he say that? when did he tell you that? mr. boyd. it was--either right before the first showup, or right after the first showup. mr. ball. what did you tell him? mr. boyd. captain fritz said he would--he didn't ask me, he was talking to captain fritz--yes. mr. ball. this was in captain fritz' office? mr. boyd. yes. mr. ball. what did fritz say? mr. boyd. he said he would see if he could make arrangements later on for him to use the telephone later on and call him. mr. ball. was anything said about who would pay for the call? mr. boyd. no, sir. mr. ball. no mention of that? mr. boyd. i think he said he would call collect--i'm not sure. mr. ball. who said that--oswald? mr. boyd. oswald. mr. ball. now, after the murder complaint was signed, what did you do? mr. boyd. well, let me see, i believe after that was signed, mr. clements--i believe, came in there. mr. ball. in where? mr. boyd. in captain fritz' office, and started talking to lee oswald. mr. ball. and do you remember what he asked him? mr. boyd. well, i know he asked him about his name and i think he asked him where he was born, i think, and he asked him about his life in russia--when he went to russia and when he came back--i don't recall all of that. mr. ball. and oswald answered the questions? mr. boyd. yes, sir; i'll tell you--oswald, he answered his questions until he finally--well, this interrogation was interrupted by another showup, and after we came back up mr. clements continued his interrogation and finally oswald told him he was just tired talking and he thought he had talked long enough and he didn't have anything else to say. he came in there and he wanted to get a little--well, he told him he wanted to get a little of his personal history and background, and oswald finally got up and said, "what started out to be a short interrogation turned out to be rather lengthy," and he said, "i believe i have answered all the questions i have cared to answer, and i don't care to say anything else." and sat back down. mr. ball. he stood up and said that, did he? mr. boyd. yes; he stood up and said it. he just sat back in the chair and said, "i don't care to talk any more." mr. ball. the first interrogation by clements was interrupted, wasn't it? mr. boyd. yes. mr. ball. that was interrupted by a showup, and that would be the third showup that you participated in? mr. boyd. yes, sir. mr. ball. and that took place at what time? mr. boyd. it was : , let me see, no-- : . mr. ball. and who took part in that showup? mr. boyd. you mean the officers? mr. ball. no; who were the parties in the showup? mr. boyd. well, the first one was richard walter borchgardt, and no. was lee harvey oswald, and no. was--i have the wrong name in here--i have the last name--i just asked him his name as he came out in the showup room there and i understood him to say it was braswell but it was brazel. mr. ball. brazell--how do you spell that? mr. boyd. [spelling.] brazel. b-r-a-z-e-l. mr. ball. what is his full name? mr. boyd. ellis carl brazel. mr. ball. he was the third man? mr. boyd. yes, sir. mr. ball. who was the fourth man? mr. boyd. don ables was the fourth. mr. ball. was there some reason why you changed the parties to the showup? mr. boyd. i don't know any reason. mr. ball. who directed that? mr. boyd. i don't know--we met them down in the jail office and they had those three men down there. mr. ball. what is the usual thing--when you are going to have a showup and you are in charge of investigation, who picks the people who appear in the showup? mr. boyd. well, most of the time we call down to the jail office and have them send us down--if he's already in jail, we just have them send up there and get him and just how many we want in the showup and we will tell them to give us this particular one--or three or four men--whatever the case may be. mr. ball. who picks them? mr. boyd. the jailers upstairs. mr. ball. do you tell them to get them all the same color? mr. boyd. yes, sir; we always tell them to get them all the same color. i never have had too much trouble getting them all the same color. mr. ball. what about the size and weight? mr. boyd. now, we always tell them to get them as near the same size and age and weight as they can. sometimes they do and sometimes they don't. mr. ball. in this case you didn't pick the men for the showup? mr. boyd. i didn't know them--no, sir. mr. ball. or any of the showups? mr. boyd. no, sir. mr. ball. now, this third showup took place at what time? mr. boyd. we left the office at : and it takes, like i say, or minutes to get downstairs, and we got him back--we left down there to go back up at : . mr. ball. who conducted the questioning on this third showup which you attended? mr. boyd. i don't recall who did. mr. ball. what about oswald's manner in the third showup? mr. boyd. i don't recall him being any different in that showup than the first two. mr. ball. what about the appearance of the men in this showup--let's take the no. man--what was his coloring and weight and size? mr. boyd. well, let's see--this is that richard walter borchgardt. he was born may , , and our records show him to be ' ", and pounds. mr. ball. that's [spelling] b-o-r-c-h-g-a-r-d-t? mr. boyd. that's [spelling] b-o-r-c-h-g-a-r-d-t. mr. ball. pounds? mr. boyd. yes, sir; he had brown hair and blue eyes and fair complexion. mr. ball. what was he in for, do you know? mr. boyd. yes, he was in for cpw and investigation of burglary and theft. mr. ball. then, the second man was who? mr. boyd. lee harvey oswald. mr. ball. and the third man--was who? mr. boyd. ellis carl brazel [spelling] b-r-a-z-e-l. mr. ball. that's [spelling] b-r-a-z-e-l--just one "l"? mr. boyd. yes, sir. mr. ball. he was no. and what is his description? mr. boyd. he was born november , , and it shows him to be ' ", pounds, green eyes, blond hair, ruddy complexion. mr. ball. what was he in for? mr. boyd. i think he was in for tickets. mr. ball. you mean, going too fast--speeding? mr. boyd. yes, sir; i believe that's right, or having some overdue tickets--he could have been in for something else, but that's what i think he was in for. mr. ball. and don ables is the fourth man? mr. boyd. yes, sir. mr. ball. he was the no. man in the first two shows, too? mr. boyd. this shows him to be ' ", pounds. mr. ball. what do you have oswald down for? mr. boyd. i don't have his description down, but i think he told me he was ' and " or " and weighed -something pounds--i believe that is what he told me. mr. ball. do you know what happened to borchgardt? mr. boyd. no, sir; i don't. mr. ball. or to brazel? mr. boyd. no, sir. mr. ball. now, in this showup, the third showup, was oswald's manner any different than it had been the first two showups? mr. boyd. i don't recall it being any different. mr. ball. did he shout, yell, or anything of the sort? mr. boyd. i don't believe, because when he got back upstairs there, he started talking to mr. clements again and he didn't get upset. mr. ball. how long did he talk to mr. clements? this last time? mr. boyd. well, let's see--he didn't talk to him but for about half an hour. mr. ball. then, after that what happened? mr. boyd. well, after mr. clements left, well, in a few minutes detective johnny hicks and r. l. studebaker from the crime lab came down to the office, that's captain fritz' office, and detective hicks fingerprinted oswald and sgt. pete barnes came in, and shortly afterward capt. george doughty came down and stayed just a few minutes and went back up, and he left out and i don't know where he went. mr. ball. what did barnes do? mr. boyd. well, he helped johnny hicks make some paraffin casts of oswald's hands and the right side of his face. mr. ball. you were there when that happened? mr. boyd. i was in and out--i was in more than i was out. i was in and out at the time that was going on. mr. ball. then what happened--what did you do after that? mr. boyd. about : mr. sims and i made out some arrest sheets on lee oswald. mr. ball. and where was oswald then? mr. boyd. he was still up in the homicide office. mr. ball. did you question him again? mr. boyd. no, sir. mr. ball. and what did you do after that? mr. boyd. well, shortly after that chief curry and captain fritz came in, and chief curry asked us to take lee oswald back down into the assembly room and to take him out in front of the showup stage, and he told us not to let anyone get near to him or touch him--if they did--if anyone even tried it, to take him immediately to jail. mr. boyd. what did you do then? mr. boyd. we went down there and stayed, i'll say, minutes or so. mr. ball. what happened when you stayed the minutes--describe what you did? mr. boyd. well, there was a bunch of news reporters down there. mr. ball. television cameras? mr. boyd. i believe there was some cameras in there--i'm not sure about the cameras--i know that there was a lot of reporters down there. they had some cameras on the outside. mr. ball. what did you do with oswald? mr. boyd. we took him up there and some of them asked him some questions and he talked back and forth there for a minute and finally we got him and took him up in the jail office and carried him on up and put him in the jail. mr. ball. was oswald angry? mr. boyd. part of the time he was. mr. ball. what was said--can you remember? mr. boyd. i remember somebody hollering out back there, "why did you shoot the president?" mr. ball. what did he say? mr. boyd. he said, "i didn't shoot anyone." mr. ball. you took him on up there, then, did you? mr. boyd. yes, sir. mr. ball. and you put him in jail for the night, did you? mr. boyd. yes, sir. mr. ball. and then you went home and went to bed? mr. boyd. later on i did. mr. ball. what time did you go to work the next day--that would be november . mr. boyd. i think i got in around o'clock. mr. ball. then what did you do? mr. boyd. i arrived at : and i stayed around the office until : and mr. sims, hall, and myself went up and got lee oswald out of jail again and brought him down to my office. mr. ball. who told you to do that? mr. boyd. captain fritz. mr. ball. what did you do when you brought him down to your office? mr. boyd. well, mr. fritz and the fbi and mr. robert nash, the u.s. marshal, and mr. kelley of secret service were in captain fritz' office at that time. mr. ball. who else was in the office? mr. boyd. let me see--i believe mr. sims and hall, and captain fritz were there. mr. ball. now, sims said he didn't stay there. mr. boyd. well, he came back out after we got him down there--that's right. mr. ball. you stayed there, didn't you? mr. boyd. yes. mr. ball. and you heard what was said? mr. boyd. yes, sir. mr. ball. tell us what you heard. mr. boyd. well, i know mr. nash asked him a question or two. mr. ball. what were they? mr. boyd. i don't recall what questions he asked. mr. ball. who else asked questions? mr. boyd. captain fritz talked to him and--let me see--i don't remember if mr. bookhout--it seemed like mr. bookhout asked a question or two--i believe all of them asked him something. mr. ball. do you know what they asked? mr. boyd. no, sir. mr. ball. do you remember what oswald said? mr. boyd. well, let me see--no, sir; i can't recall what he said; like i say, i didn't keep notes there because i was sitting right near oswald. mr. ball. was oswald handcuffed? mr. boyd. yes; he was handcuffed. mr. ball. were the handcuffs in the front or in the back? mr. boyd. they were in the front of him. mr. ball. how long did this questioning last? mr. boyd. it didn't last too awful long--about an hour or so, i believe, and we took him back to the jail at : . mr. ball. then what did you do? mr. boyd. then mr. sims and hall and mr. dhority, who is another detective in our bureau--went out to north beckley to recheck oswald's room out there. mr. ball. did you go out there then? mr. boyd. yes. mr. ball. did you have a search warrant? mr. boyd. let me see--i'm not sure if i had a search warrant--i know the landlady was there and let us in there. i didn't have the search warrant myself, i'll say that. one of the other officers might have had a search warrant. mr. ball. but you didn't have one? mr. boyd. i didn't have one. mr. ball. you don't know whether you had one or not? mr. boyd. i know there was a search warrant gotten but i didn't get it. mr. ball. well, there was a search warrant issued to search north beckley the day before? mr. boyd. yes. mr. ball. and it was searched the day before--you knew that, didn't you? mr. boyd. yes. mr. ball. when you searched it this day, what did you find? mr. boyd. nothing. mr. ball. did you take anything with you? mr. boyd. no, sir. mr. ball. you took nothing out? mr. boyd. i don't believe so. i think it was pretty clean. mr. ball. what kind of furnishings did you see in there? mr. boyd. well, i saw a little bed, just a little small dresser--it barely would go in there and you barely did have room enough to walk between the dresser and the wall. the fact is the whole works were--wasn't any wider than that--just about that wide [indicating]. mr. ball. the whole room? mr. boyd. the whole room. mr. ball. it wasn't any wider than how many feet? mr. boyd. i would say it wasn't over about feet long and about feet wide or something like that. mr. ball. did it have curtains on the windows? mr. boyd. well, it had--let's see, i'm not sure if it was curtains or blinds. it had one little bed in there and it barely did have room enough to get in there and go to bed. mr. ball. you don't recall whether it had curtains or blinds? mr. boyd. no, sir; i do not. mr. ball. did you see oswald again that day? mr. boyd. i don't believe i did--let me see. mr. ball. well, it says in your report you brought him in at : . mr. boyd. i didn't do that. mr. ball. you didn't do it? you were off duty? mr. boyd. i wasn't off duty, but i just wasn't at the office at that time. mr. ball. you don't think you saw him again? mr. boyd. i don't believe so. mr. ball. what about november ? mr. boyd. i worked late on the night of the d so i wouldn't have to come back early the next morning. mr. ball. then, you were with him on the th? mr. boyd. i wasn't with him on the th--i was watching on the tv at home--i wasn't at home--i was out at my mother-in-law's at irving, tex., and i called lieutenant baker right after i learned about oswald. mr. ball. i want to ask you a question about oswald's appearance when you first saw him. did he have any marks on his face? mr. boyd. he had one markup--i believe it was on his left eye--the thing that i noticed or was noticeable. and i asked him where he got that and he said, "well, i struck an officer and he struck me back." he said, "which he should have done." mr. ball. did he say "he should have done that?" did oswald say that? mr. boyd. yes, sir. mr. ball. i want the exact words, not your version--give me the exact words. mr. boyd. i'll tell you--i asked him how he got this place on his eye, and he says, "well, i struck an officer and the officer struck me back, which he should have done." mr. ball. those were the exact words? mr. boyd. those were the exact words. mr. ball. was there anything else said about that? mr. boyd. no, sir; he didn't seem too much upset about it. mr. ball. did he ever complain to you that he had been abused by the officers at the time of the arrest? mr. boyd. no, sir. mr. ball. did he ever use the term that "police brutality"--did he ever use that term to you? mr. boyd. i don't remember him ever using the term "police brutality". mr. ball. did he ever ask you to get him a lawyer? mr. boyd. no, sir; he didn't ask me to get him one. mr. ball. were you present at any time when a lawyer visited oswald? mr. boyd. no, sir; i wasn't present--we asked him, did he want a lawyer here--captain fritz the next morning had asked him, and he said he didn't want a lawyer, he wanted mr. abt. mr. ball. do you have some questions? mr. stern. what was your impression of oswald--the way he handled himself, what kind of a man did he seem to you? mr. boyd. i'll tell you, i've never saw another man just exactly like him. mr. stern. in what way? mr. boyd. well, you know, he acted like he was intelligent; just as soon as you would ask him a question, he would just give you the answer right back--he didn't hesitate about his answers. i mean, as soon as you would pop him a question, he would shoot you an answer right back and, like i said, i never saw a man that could answer questions like he did. mr. stern. did he seem to be under stress or calm in those terms? mr. boyd. well, at times he was just as calm as could be, then once in a while he would--i don't know just how to tell you, but every now and then he would be talking and he would be just as calm and the next minute he would just liable to be--i mean his attitude, you know, would change, you know, rather frequently, but most of the time when he would be talking to you he was rather calm. mr. stern. when it changed, was it for any noticeable reason or did it change apparently? mr. boyd. well, most of the time, you know, it was just when somebody would say something--some little something he didn't like, and he would--he didn't become mad, but the worst thing he did was when he jumped up and slapped the desk. mr. stern. during the hosty interrogation? mr. boyd. yes, sir. mr. stern. he seemed to you to understand generally his rights? mr. boyd. yes, sir. mr. stern. and do you know that he wasn't required to answer? mr. boyd. yes, sir. mr. stern. of course, this was a long day for everybody--did he seem by the end of the day still to be in command of himself, or did he appear tired or particularly worn out? mr. boyd. well, he didn't appear to be as tired as i felt--he didn't appear to be, because i imagine he could have been tired--he didn't show it. mr. stern. this is quite unnatural--really rather exceptional; this is, of course, why you say somewhat unusual, a man accused of killing two people, one of them the president of the united states, and at the end of the day, he is pretty well in command? can you tell us in any other respect about the kind of person he seemed to you--anything else that you observed about him, as you now recall? mr. boyd. i don't know--he just struck me as being the man, you know, who liked to move around a lot--i don't know that he did, but he just struck me as being a man that acted like he was not satisfied and--in one place. mr. ball. when you participated in the search of oswald and found five pistol cartridges in his pants pocket, was there any discussion of these bullets with him; did he say anything, or did you say anything to him about it? mr. boyd. i just asked him, "what were they doing in there," and he said, "i just had them in my pocket." mr. stern. the memorandum mentions the cartridges--bus transfer, except that he had a ring on his finger which he took off and he gave it to mr. sims, do you remember any other items that he had that you got from him during this search? mr. boyd. no, sir; i know that mr. sims did get the bus transfer and took his ring--he took his ring off and give it to mr. sims, and i got those five shells, and that's all that i recall being taken from him. mr. stern. do you remember an identification bracelet in the course of that investigation? mr. boyd. let me see--i'm trying to think if he had an identification bracelet. when we were up in captain fritz' office the first time--i recall--i don't recall if i saw that bracelet then or not--it seemed like i did. i know i saw a little card with his picture on it. mr. stern. but this was not something you obtained in your search? mr. boyd. no; i didn't. mr. stern. that had been obtained earlier, apparently. that's all. do you have anything else? mr. ely. yes. mr. boyd, when you first saw oswald when you went to the interrogation room and got him--do you remember that? mr. boyd. yes. mr. ely. who was with him in the interrogation room prior to your arrival? mr. boyd. i am not positive about who was with him--there's some uniformed men in there and i believe there was officer k. e. lyons, but i would be afraid to say for sure, because i'm not positive, but i believe that's who it was. mr. ely. do you know whether whoever it was there with them, were they talking to him or questioning him, or don't you know? mr. boyd. well, i don't know. i just took it that they were the ones that brought him into--into the office up there. they were more or less just waiting for somebody. i just assumed they were part of the officers that were out in the texas theatre where they arrested him and transferred down to our office from oak cliff. mr. ely. now, referring to the press conference friday night, i believe you mentioned that part of the time oswald seemed angry to you, do you know what it was that upset him? mr. boyd. when someone called to him and asked him why he shot the president, that seemed like that's what upset him. mr. ely. do you know if there is anyone who could tell us who picked the people in the various lineups--you don't know exactly, but did you know, is there anybody you could tell us? mr. boyd. i just don't know who it would be. mr. ely. on friday night, about what time did you check oswald into the jail there? mr. boyd. i think it was around : in the morning, i believe. according to my watch, i believe that's what i went by--that's what the time would be, of course, it could be a few minutes off. we turned him over to the jailers at : a.m. mr. ely. do you know whether he was checked out of the jail again after that time? late at night--i realize you checked him out the next morning. mr. boyd. no sir; i don't know. mr. ely. you i don't know? mr. boyd. no. mr. ely. i believe that's all i have. mr. ball. well, mr. boyd, this will be written up and it will be submitted to you and you can read it over and correct it and sign it if you wish. that's one procedure you can follow. or, this young lady will write it up and we'll send it on to the commission as it is if you waive your signature. you have your option--you can do either one. mr. boyd. i think she probably got it down all right--i'll trust her. mr. ball. then, you are waiving your signature? mr. boyd. yes, sir. mr. ball. thank you very much, and i am glad to have met you. mr. boyd. glad to have met you, mr. ball. testimony of robert lee studebaker the testimony of robert lee studebaker was taken at : p.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by messrs. joseph a. ball, john hart ely, and samuel a. stern, assistant counsel of the president's commission. dr. alfred goldberg, historian, was present. mr. ball. do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before this commission to be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. studebaker. yes, sir. mr. ball. will you state your name, please? mr. studebaker. r. l. studebaker--robert lee. mr. ball. and you have been requested to appear here to give testimony in this inquiry, have you not, by your chief of police, who told you that we had a matter requiring your testimony? mr. studebaker. yes. mr. ball. the subject of the testimony is the assassination of president kennedy. you made certain investigations on november and and with respect to that, did you not? mr. studebaker. yes, sir. mr. ball. what i want to ask you is what you did at that time. can you tell me something about yourself, where you were born, where you went to school, and what your training is? mr. studebaker. i was born in niles, mich., and attended several schools and have been in dallas and i have been in the air force and came to dallas in , and have been in the police department since february , , and right now i am a detective in the crime scene service section of the id bureau of the dallas police department. mr. ball. what sort of training did you have for the crime lab work that you are doing? mr. studebaker. it's just on-the-job training--you go out with old officers and learn how to dust for prints and take pictures and fingerprints. mr. ball. have you had any special training in identification fingerprints? mr. studebaker. no, sir; we don't classify prints too much where we are. we just compare them. mr. ball. what is the technique of lifting a print, as you call it? mr. studebaker. well, it's just using the regular dusting powder that we have and if you find something that you want to dust, you dust for the print. we used on this special case up there on those boxes and things, we have a special powder that we used on that. mr. ball. then you take a picture of the print--a photograph? mr. studebaker. of this area, we just taped it to preserve it. we just lift the print and then tape it to preserve it. mr. ball. by "lifting a print," you mean to make it stand out? mr. studebaker. raising it up; yes, sir. mr. ball. by means of your dusting powder? mr. studebaker. by a chemical, yes. this certain print that was up there, we used this special powder for cardboard and paper. that's what it's used for. mr. ball. now, on the d of november , were you on duty that day? mr. studebaker. yes, sir. mr. ball. what time did you go to work? mr. studebaker. a.m. mr. ball. in the morning? mr. studebaker. yes. mr. ball. what are your hours-- to ? mr. studebaker. to . mr. ball. did you get a call to go down to the texas school book depository? mr. studebaker. yes. mr. ball. what time did you go down there? mr. studebaker. i believe we got the call about : --we was down there about : . mr. ball. and whom did you go with? mr. studebaker. lieutenant day and i answered the call. mr. ball. what equipment did you take with you? mr. studebaker. we took our camera and fingerprint kits and our truck. we have a truck that is equipped with all that stuff--a station wagon. mr. ball. each one of you had a camera, did you? mr. studebaker. no, sir; we just had one camera. mr. ball. what kind of camera was it? mr. studebaker. it's a graflex, a by speed graflex. mr. ball. have you had some experience in operating a camera? mr. studebaker. yes. mr. ball. how much? mr. studebaker. well, on this certain camera? mr. ball. yes. mr. studebaker. about months. mr. ball. but you have had photography in your crime lab work? mr. studebaker. yes. mr. ball. for how long? mr. studebaker. was about months. mr. ball. how long have you done photography altogether? mr. studebaker. in my lifetime? mr. ball. no, as one of the assistants in the crime lab, what period of years? mr. studebaker. months. i went to the crime lab in october, the st of october. mr. ball. you did--had you done any photography before that? mr. studebaker. just home photography. mr. ball. and the fingerprint equipment, is that the dusting powder you mentioned? mr. studebaker. yes. mr. ball. and what else? mr. studebaker. just anything we had in the truck. we have the truck complete. mr. ball. you have different kinds of fingerprint dusting powder for different substances? mr. studebaker. yes. mr. ball. how many different kinds of powder do you have? mr. studebaker. well, we have a gray powder that we use for lifting prints and use under an ultra-violet light and we have a black volcano powder that we use on white or grey surfaces, and then just recently we purchased this new powder--it's a magnetic powder. it's a new type of powder that you just use something like a pen to lift your powder out of the jar that it's in and it will lift a print off of a paper better than your regular dusting powder. it's more accurate in lifting a print than anything i have ever seen. it's a new type powder--a magnetic powder is what it is, and they have a jet black and a gray and a silver-gray and different types of powder in there that you can use on different types surfaces. mr. ball. by "lifting the prints," you mean it stands out? mr. studebaker. raising the print up, raising the invisible print which is a latent print and it will raise the moisture out of the paper that it is pressed on. it takes pounds of pressure to leave a latent fingerprint and the moisture in your fingers, in the pores of your skin, is what leaves the print on the paper, but it is invisible until you put your powder on there and then it raises it. mr. ball. now, on this day when you went to the texas school book depository building, did you go directly to some particular floor? mr. studebaker. we went to the entrance and they said it was on the sixth floor and we went directly to the sixth floor. mr. ball. then, were you directed to some place on the sixth floor, as soon as you arrived there? mr. studebaker. no; they hadn't found anything when we got there. mr. ball. after you were there a little while, did somebody find something? mr. studebaker. they found the empty hulls in the southeast corner of the building--they found three empty hulls and we went over there and took photographs of that. mr. ball. do you have that photograph with you? mr. studebaker. yes. mr. ball. could i see it, please? mr. studebaker. now, i took two of the photographs and lieutenant day took two. we took double shots on each one. these are the ones i took myself--these pictures. there's the two pictures that i took. this one was right before anything was moved. there is a hull here, a hull here, and a hull over here. mr. ball. now, this picture you have just identified as the picture you took, we will mark it as exhibit "a" in your deposition. mr. studebaker. yes, sir. (instrument referred to marked by the reporter as "studebaker exhibit a," for identification.) mr. studebaker. yes, sir; now, on this negative right down here in the bottom corner of this negative, there is another hull--you can just barely see the tip of it right here, and when this picture was printed, the exposure of the printing left this out, but i have one--i didn't know this was like that, but i have another one that shows this hull this way. you see these boxes all right stacked up here, and you couldn't get over here to take another picture in that way, without getting up on everything and messing everything up. this is exact before anything was ever moved or picked up. there are just two different views there. you probably got one or two recopies. we printed a bunch of them. mr. ball. is this the same picture? mr. studebaker. that's the same picture, only you don't have it there either. mr. ball. it doesn't show it? mr. studebaker. it doesn't show the third hull laying beside this box. mr. ball. we have a picture which shows the three hulls, which is exhibit a, and a picture showing the two hulls, will be marked "exhibit b." (instrument referred to marked by the reporter as "studebaker exhibit b," for identification.) mr. studebaker. the first pictures was shots on the southeast facing west, and this one here is facing east. mr. ball. in other words, exhibit a was filmed from the east, with the camera facing west? mr. studebaker. yes, sir. mr. ball. and exhibit b is what? mr. studebaker. facing east. mr. ball. you are facing east? mr. studebaker. we have a jacket we made up that has all of those pictures numbered in there, and i believe he made an explanation on every one of those. mr. ball. we will identify your exhibit a as your no. and your exhibit b as your no. . now, what other pictures did you take? mr. studebaker. of the rifle? mr. ball. yes. mr. studebaker. yes, sir; that's why, right after these were taken, they said they had found a rifle and to bring the cameras over to the northwest corner of the building where the rifle was found and i loaded everything up and carried it over there. mr. ball. did you take a picture of that? mr. studebaker. yes, sir; on these, lieutenant day also took pictures of those, and he also took pictures of this gun. we took two shots apiece. mr. ball. let's see the shots you took of the place where the gun was located? mr. studebaker. i know it's mine because my knees are in the picture. mr. ball. do you remember the name of the deputy sheriff that found the gun? mr. studebaker. no, i don't. mr. ball. you have handed me a picture now that i will have marked as "exhibit c" and it is your no. . (instrument marked by the reporter as "studebaker exhibit c," for identification.) mr. ball. that is a picture taken by you of the location of the gun--that was before anyone moved it? mr. studebaker. yes. mr. ball. do you have another shot of that other picture? mr. studebaker. no, we took two from the same location when we was up on top of the stack of boxes shooting down at it, before they picked it up. actually, there was four negatives of them of the gun, but they are all in the same location, shooting straight down and they were taken on different exposures. mr. ball. you took some other pictures, didn't you? mr. studebaker. yes, sir. mr. ball. did you take a picture of the window in the southeast corner? mr. studebaker. yes, sir. mr. ball. were there any boxes on the ledge of this window? mr. studebaker. yes. mr. ball. did you take some pictures showing those boxes? mr. studebaker. yes. mr. ball. was that before any of them were moved? mr. studebaker. that picture right there is the one that shows them, and the other pictures show them before they were moved. mr. ball. you mean exhibit a and b? mr. studebaker. a and b. mr. ball. do you have a picture that shows the boxes themselves, just a shot of those boxes in the window? mr. studebaker. this one, exhibit a, shows that--this is the exact--now, this print here isn't too good, but you can see the indentation in this box right here. this is before it was ever moved, and right down below here, you can see a staple on another box or another negative, this isn't too good a negative here. if i had known what you wanted, i would have brought you a better print--picked out a better print. mr. ball. now, you say on exhibit a it shows a box in the window? mr. studebaker. these boxes [indicating], yes, sir. mr. ball. is that the way they were piled up? mr. studebaker. yes, just exactly like that. mr. ball. and you say there is an indentation on that box? mr. studebaker. right here. mr. ball. that shows in the picture. mr. studebaker. yes. mr. ball. will you take this pen and sort of surround that and make it look a little heavier? mr. studebaker. (marked exhibit as requested by counsel ball.) mr. ball. there was an indentation in the box, was there? mr. studebaker. yes, and you can tell on these boxes. we checked them all over and this box is a second rolling readers--that was carried from the fourth aisle over here to over here (indicating) and there is another box that was taken off of this stack--this stack right here. mr. ball. is it shown in the picture? mr. studebaker. it will show on another negative. mr. ball. you see, somebody reading this can't tell what you mean by "another box taken from this stack here." mr. studebaker. well, there is a box right under this. mr. ball. right under what? mr. studebaker. right under this box. mr. ball. you mean the box that's shown in the window ledge, you mean the little rolling readers? mr. studebaker. there are two boxes stacked up here--here's one, and here's one. mr. ball. were they both rolling readers? mr. studebaker. yes; two small boxes, and then a large box with these books was underneath. mr. ball. it's marked "books"? mr. studebaker. it's marked "books" and it was underneath this box. mr. ball. now, the box marked "books" was underneath the box marked "rolling readers"? mr. studebaker. yes; second rolling readers. mr. ball. now, there were two rolling readers boxes, weren't there? mr. studebaker. yes. mr. ball. where were they taken from? mr. studebaker. they were taken from the fourth aisle and put there. mr. ball. where were they stacked in the window? mr. studebaker. well, this shows as much as you can before anything was moved, and at that time, we went over to this other place---- mr. ball. did you take this picture? mr. studebaker. yes, sir; that was after the boxes were dusted. mr. ball. that's after they were moved? mr. studebaker. yes, sir; that's when we was trying to get some prints right there. mr. ball. do you have any pictures of the boxes before they were moved other than those you have showed me? mr. studebaker. just these two. mr. ball. just the two that show the cartons, and those are exhibits a and b? mr. studebaker. we have probably got one down there i can get you that is a lot better print than that. if you want a better print, i can get it for you. mr. ball. then, you don't have any pictures taken of the boxes before they were moved? mr. studebaker. no. mr. ball. now, i will show you another picture which we will mark as "exhibit d," was that taken by you? mr. studebaker. yes. (instrument marked by the reporter as "studebaker exhibit d," for identification.) mr. ball. does that show the position of the boxes before or after they were moved? mr. studebaker. that's after they were dusted--there's fingerprint dust on every box. mr. ball. and they were not in that position then when you first saw them? mr. studebaker. no. mr. ball. now, take a look at it and tell me where were they with reference to the left window sill, were there boxes over close to the left window sill or in the center, or close to the right of the window sill? mr. studebaker. where is your other picture--and i will show you? see this box right here--this box? mr. ball. we are referring now to the box shown in exhibit b. mr. studebaker. that's one of these rolling readers there in exhibit b, you can read it right here--it's upside down. it says, "second rolling readers." mr. ball. that says . mr. studebaker. no; it says second; that's that little rolling reader--it says "second rolling readers". they don't go by this up there, they go by this right here, this little print. now, this box was turned over on its side and you see the tape right here, the way it is wrapped around--that was laying in the window like this on the top box. mr. ball. "in the window like this," you mean as shown on exhibit b? mr. studebaker. it is exhibit b. mr. ball. it was on the window ledge? mr. studebaker. it was on the window ledge, just like it is right there, and then this other box was beside it, and this box was turned up on end. mr. ball. you say "this box turned up on end," you've got to give us a description of "this box"--you mean the box marked "books"? mr. studebaker. the box marked "books"--now, we have--this thing is stapled here some place along this edge and you can see the staples in this other print. you can't see it in this print. mr. ball. what other print? mr. studebaker. when you make a negative, you have to put it on your exposure when you expose the thing, and you see, you lose part of your negative. mr. ball. first, let me get back to what we were talking about first. mr. studebaker. well, this box was sitting right here--the first box in exhibit a. mr. ball. wait just a minute--let me direct your attention to exhibit b, does it show a box on the window ledge? mr. studebaker. this box--the second rolling readers. mr. ball. that picture was taken before the box was moved? mr. studebaker. yes. mr. ball. that box shown in the window ledge in exhibit b was the rolling readers box? mr. studebaker. yes. mr. ball. and underneath that was another box? mr. studebaker. another rolling reader box? mr. ball. and underneath that sitting on the floor was another box? mr. studebaker. a box marked "books". mr. ball. it was larger in size? mr. studebaker. it was larger in size. mr. ball. than the rolling readers box? mr. studebaker. yes. mr. ball. now, the one marked "books", how was that standing, was it on its end or on its side? mr. studebaker. it was on its end. you see, these staples right along here, these staples show in another print. they don't show in this print--this is just a bad print. mr. ball. when you say "in this," what is it? mr. studebaker. this is exhibit--what is it? mr. ball. this is exhibit a. mr. studebaker. exhibit a--it was standing on end. mr. ball. now, in exhibit a--can you tell me looking at exhibit a whether or not these boxes were over near the left-hand corner of the sill, to the left of the sill, looking out of the window, at the center, or over at the right. mr. studebaker. they were in the left-hand corner of the window looking towards elm street. mr. ball. how close to the edge of the sill? mr. studebaker. right at the edge. mr. ball. right at the edge? mr. studebaker. yes, sir. mr. ball. now, you show an indentation or a mark on the top of the box shown in exhibit a, is that a little rolling reader box? mr. studebaker. yes, sir. mr. ball. now, we have a picture here which we will mark "exhibit e." (instrument marked by the reporter as "studebaker exhibit e," for identification.) mr. ball. this is a picture of the fifth and sixth floor of the texas school book depository taken by a photographer right after shots were fired at president kennedy. can you tell me whether or not the rolling readers box you identified in exhibit a is shown in that picture? mr. studebaker. yes, sir. mr. ball. where? mr. studebaker. that's the top corner. mr. ball. where? mr. studebaker. that's this corner right here. mr. ball. let's put a circle around that so we can identify that. mr. studebaker. have you got a ballpoint pen? (witness studebaker marks the instrument referred to as requested by counsel ball.) mr. ball. the circle surrounds that box, is that correct? mr. studebaker. yes, sir. mr. ball. there is another box shown in exhibit e here over to the right of the window as you stand looking out of the window. mr. studebaker. it would be these boxes back over in here--it would be the top of those boxes. mr. ball. how far were they away from the window? mr. studebaker. i would have to look at the measurements--i have the measurements down here. this is the box you see right there, in that picture. you see, these boxes were stacked all up on top of each one. mr. ball. you are referring to exhibit a? mr. studebaker. exhibit a. mr. ball. and it is the row of boxes? mr. studebaker. behind this window--that's the top of that box--that's all it is. mr. ball. it is the top of a box that is shown in this picture? mr. studebaker. yes. mr. ball. and they were set back from the window or feet, were they? mr. studebaker. yes, they were about inches is all that was. mr. ball. let's make two circles--one circle around the top of the rolling readers and one circle around the top of the other box. so, the people who read this can understand it, make the rolling readers circle an "x" circle and mark it out here--mark "x" and the other circle a "y" circle. (witness studebaker marked the exhibit referred to as requested by counsel ball.) mr. ball. now, the rolling readers box, which is shown in the "x" circle on this exhibit e, where was that with reference to the window sill itself? mr. studebaker. sitting right on the sill. mr. ball. and the box that is shown in the picture as around the "y" circle of exhibit e, that was how far from the window itself? mr. studebaker. approximately inches from the inside brick of the window. mr. ball. and that little aisleway is shown on exhibits a and b? mr. studebaker. yes, on a and b. mr. ball. now, did you at any time see any paper sack around there? mr. studebaker. yes, sir. mr. ball. where? mr. studebaker. storage room there--in the southeast corner of the building--folded. mr. ball. in the southeast corner of the building? mr. studebaker. it was a paper--i don't know what it was. mr. ball. and it was folded, you say? mr. studebaker. yes. mr. ball. where was it with respect to the three boxes of which the top two were rolling readers? mr. studebaker. directly east. mr. ball. there is a corner there, isn't it? mr. studebaker. yes, sir; in the southeast corner. mr. ball. it was in the southeast corner? mr. studebaker. i drew that box in for somebody over at the fbi that said you wanted it. it is in one of those pictures--one of the shots after the duplicate shot. mr. ball. let's mark this picture "exhibit f." (instrument marked by the reporter as "studebaker exhibit f," for identification.) mr. ball. do you know who took that picture? mr. studebaker. no; i don't. mr. ball. do you recognize the diagram? mr. studebaker. yes, sir. mr. ball. did you draw the diagram? mr. studebaker. i drew a diagram in there for the fbi, somebody from the fbi called me down--i can't think of his name, and he wanted an approximate location of where the paper was found. mr. ball. does that show the approximate location? mr. studebaker. yes. mr. ball. where you have the dotted lines? mr. studebaker. yes. mr. ball. now, there is something that looks like steam pipes or water pipes in the corner there? mr. studebaker. yes. mr. ball. where was that with reference to those pipes--the paper wrapping? mr. studebaker. laying right beside it--right here. mr. ball. was it folded over? mr. studebaker. it was doubled--it was a piece of paper about this long and it was doubled over. mr. ball. how long was it, approximately? mr. studebaker. i don't know--i picked it up and dusted it and they took it down there and sent it to washington and that's the last i have seen of it, and i don't know. mr. ball. did you take a picture of it before you picked it up? mr. studebaker. no. mr. ball. does that sack show in any of the pictures you took? mr. studebaker. no; it doesn't show in any of the pictures. mr. ball. was it near the window? mr. studebaker. yes, sir. mr. ball. which way from the window? mr. studebaker. it was east of the window. mr. ball. over in the corner? mr. studebaker. over in the corner--in the southeast corner of the building, in the far southeast corner, as far as you can get is where it was. mr. ball. you say you dusted it? mr. studebaker. with that magnetic powders. mr. ball. did you lift any prints? mr. studebaker. there wasn't but just smudges on it--is all it was. there was one little ole piece of a print and i'm sure i put a piece of tape on it to preserve it. mr. ball. well, then, there was a print that you found on it? mr. studebaker. yes; just a partial print. mr. ball. the print of a finger or palm or what? mr. studebaker. you couldn't tell, it was so small. mr. ball. but you did dust it and lift some print? mr. studebaker. yes. mr. ball. when you say you taped it, what did you do, cover it with some paper? mr. studebaker. we have--it's like a magic mending tape, only we use it just strictly for fingerprinting. mr. ball. let's stick with the paper. mr. studebaker. well, on the paper i put a piece of inch tape over it--i'm sure i did. mr. ball. after you dusted the print, you put a inch tape over it? mr. studebaker. yes, sir. mr. ball. now, did you also lift a print off of the box? mr. studebaker. yes. mr. ball. you lifted a print off of a box? mr. studebaker. yes. mr. ball. where was the box? mr. studebaker. the box was due north of the paper that was found, and it was, i believe, we have it that it was--i can read the measurements off of one of these things--how far it was. mr. ball. fine, do that. mr. studebaker. it was - / inches from the--from this wall over here (indicating). mr. ball. which wall are you talking about? mr. studebaker. it was from the south wall of the building. mr. ball. did you take a picture of that box in place before it was moved? mr. studebaker. yes. mr. ball. the box from which you lifted the prints? mr. studebaker. this box never was moved. mr. ball. that box never was moved? mr. studebaker. that box never was moved. mr. ball. and you took a picture of it? mr. studebaker. yes, sir. mr. ball. and that was the location of it when you lifted the print of it? mr. studebaker. yes, sir. mr. ball. and may i have that, please, and we will mark it exhibit g. mr. studebaker. i was with them in the corner all the time--they were with me, rather, i guess captain fritz told them to stay with us and help us in case they were needed. mr. ball. johnson and montgomery? mr. studebaker. johnson and montgomery--they were with me all the time over in that one corner. mr. ball. now, we have here a picture which we will mark "g." (instrument marked by the reporter as "studebaker exhibit g," for identification.) mr. ball. this is your no. , and that shows the box, does it? mr. studebaker. yes, sir. mr. ball. and that was its location with reference to the corner? mr. studebaker. yes, sir; that's the exact location. mr. ball. can you draw in there showing us where the paper sack was found? (witness studebaker drew on instrument as requested by counsel ball.) mr. ball. that would be directly south? mr. studebaker. that would be directly south of where the box was. mr. ball. you have drawn an outline in ink on the map in the southeast corner. now, that box is how many inches, as shown in this picture? mr. studebaker. it is inches from the south wall. mr. ball. you say you lifted a print there off of this box? mr. studebaker. yes, sir. mr. ball. and now, is that shown in the picture? mr. studebaker. yes, sir. mr. ball. what shows in the picture, can you tell me what shows in the picture? describe what you see there. mr. studebaker. well, there is a box with a partial print on the--it would be the northwest corner of the box. mr. ball. was that a palm print or a fingerprint? mr. studebaker. a palm. mr. ball. it was a palm print? mr. studebaker. yes, sir. mr. ball. and does it show the direction of the palm? mr. studebaker. yes. mr. ball. which way? mr. studebaker. west. mr. ball. it would be made with the hand---- mr. studebaker. with the right hand sitting on the box. mr. ball. and the fingers pointed west, is that it? mr. studebaker. yes, sir. mr. ball. now, you outlined that before you took the picture, did you? mr. studebaker. yes, sir. mr. ball. and that is the outline shown in this picture? mr. studebaker. yes, sir. mr. ball. now, in exhibit f, does that also show--did you attempt to show the diagram of the palm in exhibit f; did you do that? mr. studebaker. no; could i? mr. ball. did you? mr. studebaker. did i do this? mr. ball. yes. mr. studebaker. no. mr. ball. but, does that correspond with your opinion as to the direction of the hand, the position of the hand at the time the palm print was made? mr. studebaker. yes, sir. mr. ball. there were no fingers shown in that print, just the palm print? mr. studebaker. no, sir; just the palm print. mr. ball. now, do you have some more pictures there to show me? mr. studebaker. well, i've got a bunch of them. i made this diagram of the whole sixth floor of that building. this isn't the original, and j. b. hicks and i measured this thing and i drew the diagram. mr. ball. now, did you find a two-wheeled truck up there? mr. studebaker. yes, sir. mr. ball. and did you take a picture of it? mr. studebaker. yes, sir. mr. ball. let me see that one. mr. studebaker. all right--it has the dr. pepper bottle and the paper sack that was sitting there in the picture. mr. ball. let me see that one. mr. studebaker. (handed instrument to counsel ball.) there are two different views of it--there's one and here's one. that was before anything was touched and before it was dusted. this is a shot--i believe that's in the third aisle and let's see what it is marked--it's the sixth floor of elm street looking south and the third aisle from houston street on the south side of the building. that was taken looking directly into that--this is the sack with those chicken bones and all that mess was in there too. mr. ball. is the sack shown there? mr. studebaker. yes; it's a little ole brown sack--yes; it's right there. mr. ball. we will mark this as "exhibit h," which is your no. . (instrument marked by the reporter as "studebaker exhibit h," for identification.) mr. ball. that's the sack, is that right? mr. studebaker. yes. mr. ball. and it shows--it has some chicken bones in it? mr. studebaker. yes, sir. mr. ball. any chicken bones in any other place? mr. studebaker. no. mr. ball. none outside the sack? mr. studebaker. no; they were all inside the sack, wrapped up and put right back in. it had a little piece of fritos in the sack, too. mr. ball. then, we will have the next picture marked exhibit i, which shows the dr. pepper bottle with the two-wheeler, is that right? mr. studebaker. yes, sir. (instrument marked by the reporter as "studebaker exhibit i," for identification.) mr. ball. and that's your no. . mr. studebaker. yes, sir. mr. ball. that's the third row over? mr. studebaker. that's the third aisle from houston street. mr. ball. that would be the third set of windows? mr. studebaker. that would be the third set of windows--it would be--one, two, three. mr. ball. the third set of windows from houston street--you mark it. mr. studebaker. yes. (instrument marked by the witness studebaker as requested by counsel ball.) mr. ball. now, did you see a chicken bone over near the boxes in the southeast corner, over near where you found the cartridges and the paper sack? mr. studebaker. i don't believe there was one there. mr. ball. you didn't see any. one witness, a deputy sheriff named luke looney said he found a piece of chicken partly eaten up on top of one of the boxes; did you see anything like that? mr. studebaker. no. mr. ball. was anything like that called to your attention? mr. studebaker. i can't recall anything like that. it ought to be in one of these pictures, if it is. mr. ball. you made a map of that sixth floor and identified pictures by numbers, did you not? mr. studebaker. yes, sir. mr. ball. you made a measurement of the distance from the window ledge to the sidewalk, didn't you? mr. studebaker. yes, sir. mr. ball. how many feet? mr. studebaker. let me see-- feet from the window ledge to the sidewalk. mr. ball. now, this is such a good set of pictures, can we have them? mr. studebaker. you will have to see chief curry. he gave orders that no pictures were to be released without his permission. you can call him, if you want to. mr. ball. well, i already have taken some of them. mr. studebaker. i'm sure he will. we have printed about , of them--it seems like that and i don't imagine that two or three more would make any difference. this is out of a master set--all of these pictures you have here. mr. ball. the picture of the boxes; this is after they were moved? mr. studebaker. yes, sir; they were moved there. this is exactly the position they were in. mr. ball. it is? mr. studebaker. yes--not--this was after they were moved, but i put them back in the same exact position. mr. ball. were they that close--that was about the position? mr. studebaker. yes. mr. ball. let's take one of these pictures and mark it the next number, which will be "exhibit j." (instrument marked by the reporter as "studebaker exhibit j," for identification.) mr. ball. after the boxes of rolling readers had been moved, you put them back in the same position? mr. studebaker. yes. mr. ball. and took a picture? mr. studebaker. yes, sir. mr. ball. and this is exhibit j, is it, is that right? mr. studebaker. exhibit j, yes, sir. mr. ball. now, the box that had the print on it is shown? mr. studebaker. yes, sir. mr. ball. let's put a few hieroglyphics on here--a few numbers on here. let's put the box with the print that was found as . mr. studebaker. you want marked on this box? (witness studebaker marked instrument as requested by counsel ball.) mr. ball. and the place where the paper sack was found as no. and the box that had the indentation on it, let's mark it no. . mr. studebaker. (marked instruments as requested by counsel ball.) mr. ball. and outline the indentation with a circle. mr. studebaker. (witness executed outline as requested by counsel ball.) mr. ball. was there any other indentation on that box besides that which is shown in the circle on ? mr. studebaker. no. mr. ball. that's the only one? mr. studebaker. yes, you see, i dusted these first, because i figured he might have stacked them up. mr. ball. did you find any prints? mr. studebaker. no prints, and then i was standing right there and i told johnson and montgomery that there should be a print, and i turned around and figured he might have been standing right in there, and i dusted all these poles here and there wasn't no prints on any of it and started dusting this big box, no. here, and lifted the print off of that box. mr. ball. did you later examine that print that you lifted off of that box in your crime lab? mr. studebaker. i was up in that building until o'clock that morning and got there at and left at and they had seized all of our evidence and i haven't seen it since. lieutenant day compared the print before it was released to oswald's print. mr. ball. he did? mr. studebaker. he compared it as oswald's right palm print. mr. ball. did you put some masking tape over that bit of cardboard before you moved it? mr. studebaker. as soon as the print was lifted, you see, i taped it and then they took the print down there. they just took the top corner of this box down there. mr. ball. they just took the top part of the box down there? mr. studebaker. yes, and when we took this picture, we took it back--that stuff has been up there and back until i was so confused i don't know what was going on. mr. ball. you mean, when you took the picture which is marked exhibit j---- mr. studebaker. this picture has the palm print on it. mr. ball. it has the palm print--it had been removed and had been identified and brought back and put in the box? mr. studebaker. it had been brought back and put in the box and as being oswald's right palm print. mr. ball. so, in exhibit j, you put the cardboard back on the box? mr. studebaker. on the box, yes, sir; where it was found. mr. ball. where you had found it? you put the rolling readers boxes back where you first saw them? mr. studebaker. yes. mr. ball. and then you took a picture? mr. studebaker. yes. mr. ball. so, this exhibit j, gives us the scene as you saw it? mr. studebaker. yes, sir. mr. ball. before the boxes were moved? mr. studebaker. yes. mr. ball. and before the palm print was identified? mr. studebaker. yes, sir. mr. ball. did you find any prints on that sack that had the chicken bones in it? mr. studebaker. no. mr. ball. did you find any prints on boxes around where that sack was found? mr. studebaker. no, no prints. mr. ball. or the two-wheeler truck? mr. studebaker. no. mr. ball. no prints? mr. studebaker. no. mr. ball. you dusted around there for them? mr. studebaker. i dusted everything around that area. there was just smears and smudges on the bottom. mr. ball. did you dust the rifle? mr. studebaker. no, sir; lieutenant day handled the rifle part of it. i didn't mess with the rifle at all. he took it down to the city hall and they worked on it down there at the lab. mr. ball. do you have the measurements of the boxes? mr. studebaker. yes, i have all the measurements. mr. ball. where? mr. studebaker. down at the city hall. mr. ball. let's take exhibit j--how did the height of the little rolling reader box on the window sill compare with the height of the box you have marked " " that had the indentation on it? mr. studebaker. it was lower, approximately or inches lower than the box marked "exhibit , or no. " in the picture. mr. ball. which box was lower, tell us which box was lower? mr. studebaker. the box on the sill was lower than the box--do you want to mark it " "--the box in the window? mr. ball. the box in the window, you mark it " ," if you wish. mr. studebaker. (marked instrument as requested by counsel ball.) mr. ball. now, tell us which box, identifying it by number. mr. studebaker. box no. in the window was approximately to inches lower than box no. pictured in the picture of exhibit j. mr. ball. now, do you have any questions to ask him on any other subject matters, and if you do go ahead and ask him. mr. stern. perhaps this is not the witness to establish it, but i think it might be useful to know if he has any opinion as to why the boxes were placed that way? mr. studebaker. a good gun rest. mr. stern. in that arrangement? mr. studebaker. yes, it was a good gun rest. mr. stern. with the box in front lower than the box behind? mr. studebaker. in other words, it's like this--you see--it would be down on a level like this--it shows where the butt of the gun was up behind him here. he was down like this--nobody could see him from the street. he was behind this window. he didn't shoot this way because everybody would be looking right at him. mr. ball. now, how big was this paper that you saw--you saw the wrapper--tell me about how big that paper bag was--how long was it? mr. studebaker. it was about, i would say, - / to feet long. mr. ball. the paper bag? mr. studebaker. yes. mr. ball. and how wide was it? mr. studebaker. approximately inches. mr. ball. mr. studebaker, this testimony will be written up and it will be submitted to you if you wish, for your signature. you can read it over and sign it, or it is your option that you can waive your signature and we will send it right on up to the commission. which do you prefer? mr. studebaker. whichever is the easiest for you. mr. ball. it is easier for you if you don't have to read it, of course, but you have a right to read it and sign it, whichever you want to do. mr. studebaker. well, i will read it and sign it. mr. ball. all right. she will notify you. mr. studebaker. okay. mr. ball. thank you very much. mr. studebaker. yes, sir. testimony of c. n. dhority the testimony of c. n. dhority was taken at : p.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by messrs. joseph a. ball, john hart ely, and samuel a. stern, assistant counsel of the president's commission. dr. alfred goldberg, historian was present. mr. ball. my name is joe ball. will you stand up and be sworn? do you solemnly swear that the evidence you are about to give before the commission shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. dhority. yes, sir. mr. ball. will you state your name, please? mr. dhority. c. n. dhority. mr. ball. and what is your occupation? mr. dhority. detective with the dallas police department. mr. ball. you understand, don't you, that we are inquiring here as to the facts surrounding the assassination of president kennedy, do you not? mr. dhority. yes. mr. ball. and you have been requested to come up here and give your testimony? mr. dhority. yes, sir. mr. ball. and you are willing to testify to such matters that came to your attention during your investigation of that assassination, are you not? mr. dhority. yes, sir. mr. ball. will you tell me something about yourself, where you were born and what your education is, and how long you have been here with the department? mr. dhority. well, i was born in tuscumbia, ala., in august , and lived there until i was about years old, and have been in dallas the rest of the time. i have been on the police department since august , . mr. ball. what department do you work with? mr. dhority. i work for captain fritz. mr. ball. homicide? mr. dhority. yes, sir. mr. ball. how long have you been in the homicide department? mr. dhority. since . mr. ball. on november , , what time did you go to work? mr. dhority. oh, i believe it was around p.m. mr. ball. was that the time you usually went to work? mr. dhority. no, i was off that day. mr. ball. well, how did you happen to go to work that day? mr. dhority. lt. wells called me and told me to come to work. mr. ball. and you went to work at the main office of the police department? mr. dhority. yes. mr. ball. you arrived at about p.m.? mr. dhority. yes. mr. ball. do you usually work with another detective? mr. dhority. yes. h. h. blessing. mr. ball. was he on duty that day with you? mr. dhority. i don't believe so. he got shot last december and has been in pretty bad shape. he just works sometimes and i don't know whether he was there that day. mr. ball. did you work with anybody that day, november , after you came to work? mr. dhority. i worked part of the day with c. w. brown; he's a patrolman temporarily assigned to that bureau. mr. ball. what is the first thing you did that day after you came to work? mr. dhority. i started answering telephones, i believe; they were all ringing. mr. ball. and did you later see lee oswald? mr. dhority. yes. mr. ball. about what time was the first time you saw him? mr. dhority. i don't recall exactly what time it was--he was in captain fritz' office. mr. ball. on november , did you ever sit in on the questioning, sit in a group where oswald was questioned? mr. dhority. no, sir. mr. ball. what was the first thing that you did that day with respect to the investigation of the president's assassination? mr. dhority. around p.m., detective brown and myself went out and got mr. mcwatters from the bus in front of the city hall there and brought him into the lineup and took an affidavit off of him. mr. ball. you were with mr. mcwatters, were you, in the lineup during the showup? mr. dhority. yeah. mr. ball. that was about what time? mr. dhority. about : . i don't recall. mr. ball. you two men were with him? mr. dhority. yes, sir. mr. ball. there was some other people there also at that time, weren't there; some other witnesses? mr. dhority. quite a few down there as well as i recall, in the showup room. mr. ball. at the showup room? mr. dhority. yes, sir. mr. ball. did you talk to any of them? mr. dhority. no, sir. mr. ball. did you talk to a man named w. w. whaley at that time? mr. dhority. whaley, that's a cabdriver? mr. ball. the cabdriver. mr. dhority. i don't believe that was that night--i was thinking that was the next day. mr. ball. well, did you at some time talk to whaley? mr. dhority. well, briefly, i took him back down to the cab company down there. mr. ball. did you talk to a fellow at this showup at : , did you talk to anybody named sam guinyard? or ted callaway? mr. dhority. i don't recall the names. mr. ball. but at this showup at : you and brown were with mcwatters, were you not? mr. dhority. yes, sir. mr. ball. was there a leavelle there, j. r. leavelle--a detective? mr. dhority. i don't recall--he could have been--there was quite a few officers there. mr. ball. do you remember what occurred at the showup? mr. dhority. yes, sir; he identified oswald as the no. man in the four-man lineup. mr. ball. were any questions asked of the men in the lineup? mr. dhority. i don't recall--i wasn't holding the showup. i was just with him and viewing the lineup. i believe that someone up there did that. mr. ball. what did mcwatters say to you? mr. dhority. he identified him as the man that rode on the bus and said he wasn't for sure exactly where he picked him up, but he said he believed that he got off shortly after he got on the bus, but after he identified him he went upstairs and looked at a transfer that detective sims had took out of oswald's pocket, and he positively identified the transfer as his transfer. mr. ball. you took mcwatters' affidavit after that, didn't you? mr. dhority. yes, sir. mr. ball. right after he had made an identification? mr. dhority. yes, sir. mr. ball. of oswald? mr. dhority. yes, sir. mr. ball. at that time, and i'll show you a copy of an affidavit by mcwatters, and will you take a look at that, please? mr. dhority. [examined instrument referred to.] mr. ball. mr. dhority, after the showup, did you take the affidavit from mr. mcwatters? mr. dhority. yes, i did. mr. ball. now, in the affidavit here he says he picked up a man on the lower end of town on elm and houston and went out on marsalis and picked up a woman, and then he mentions that as he went out, "this man was grinning and never did say anything. the woman said that it was not a grinning matter. i don't remember where i let this man off. this man looks like the no. man i saw in a lineup tonight." now, you read that, didn't you? mr. dhority. yes. mr. ball. now, you say he identified oswald, he identified him as a man that he had seen before doing what--did he tell you? mr. dhority. no, i just asked him if he saw the man there that he picked up, and he said it was the no. man. i don't know whether you've talked to him or not. mr. ball. yes, i have. mr. dhority. but to me, he is the type of person that the longer you talk to him--he just goes and he will try, to me, he will try to say, "well, i'm sure it was," but then he would go on with something else. mr. ball. well, what i want to know is this--he identified oswald, but did he tell you where he had seen oswald before and what oswald had done? mr. dhority. well, just like that affidavit there, he says he thought he picked him up down there close to the book depository on elm. mr. ball. did he tell you that? as he went out on marsalis that some man on the bus had grinned at a woman when the woman mentioned that the president had been shot? mr. dhority. i don't know exactly for word to word--it's in the affidavit there. mr. ball. this is the story he told you that's in the affidavit; is that right? mr. dhority. yes, sir; after he gave me the affidavit and we were walking back across the street to the bus, he said, "well, i think he went out on marsalis with me." he said, "he could have got off sooner." mr. ball. well, i want to read this affidavit into the record. it says: "the state of texas, county of dallas "before me, patsy collins, a notary public in and for said county, state of texas, on this day personally appeared cecil j. mcwatters, blyth, da - , dallas, texas, business address: dallas transit company. "who, after being by me duly sworn on oath deposes and says: today, november , , about : p.m. i was driving marsalis bus no. . i picked up a man on the lower end of town on elm around houston. i went on out marsalis and picked up a woman. i asked her if she knew the president had been shot and she thought i was kidding. i told her if she did not believe me to ask the man behind her that he had told me the president was shot in the temple. this man was grinning and never did say anything. the woman said that it was not a grinning matter. i don't remember where i let this man off. this man looks like the # man i saw in a lineup tonight. the transfer # is a transfer from my bus with my punch mark." is that about what mcwatters told you? mr. dhority. that's what he told me when i was taking the affidavit from him. like i say, when i was walking back across the street with him to the bus he said he wasn't for sure that he did ride down on marsalis. mr. ball. now, on this same night, did you show him this transfer no. ? mr. dhority. yes. mr. ball. issued by the dallas transit co? mr. dhority. yes. mr. ball. and what did he tell you about that? mr. dhority. he said it was definitely a transfer that he issued and showed me his punch that he carried and he matched the punch on the transfer. mr. ball. now, did captain fritz give you some rifle shells to deliver to somebody? mr. dhority. yes, sir. mr. ball. about what time of the night or day was that? mr. dhority. i don't recall when it was, but, from his office there i took them up to the crime lab. mr. ball. were there three spent . rifle shells, is that right? mr. dhority. yes, sir. mr. ball. did you return any shells to captain fritz? mr. dhority. yes, sir. mr. ball. all of them or one of them? mr. dhority. no; he told me to bring him one back. mr. ball. you brought one back in an envelope? mr. dhority. yes. mr. ball. and lieutenant day kept two; is that right? mr. dhority. that's right. mr. ball. were you present when paraffin casts were made of oswald's hands and his face? mr. dhority. yes, sir. mr. ball. who made them? mr. dhority. i believe that was pete barnes and johnny hicks, as well as i remember. mr. ball. did you attend another showup? mr. dhority. yes. mr. ball. when was that? mr. dhority. that was about, oh, approximately an hour later after the mcwatters showup and there was a mrs. davis there. mr. ball. that was the same day? mr. dhority. yes, sir. mr. ball. tell me, did somebody send you out to her house? mr. dhority. yes; lieutenant wells sent me out there. mr. ball. what was her first name? mr. dhority. well, there were two of them--i don't recall for sure--as well as i remember--it was mrs. jeanette davis. mr. ball. there were two girls--virginia and jeanette? mr. dhority. virginia and jeanette davis, and i took the affidavit from virginia, as well as i recall it. mr. ball. you went from the police department out to the oak cliff region someplace, didn't you? mr. dhority. yes. mr. ball. where? mr. dhority. east th. mr. ball. who sent you out there? mr. dhority. lieutenant wells. mr. ball. who went with you? mr. dhority. c. w. brown. mr. ball. and what address did you go to? mr. dhority. east th. mr. ball. who did you see there? mr. dhority. well, there were quite a few people in the house there, but we were told to contact virginia davis and her sister, jeanette davis. mr. ball. and, did you talk to them? mr. dhority. yes, sir. mr. ball. did they give you anything? mr. dhority. virginia gave me a . hull. mr. ball. did she tell you where she got it? mr. dhority. i believe that she said that she found it in her front yard, as well as i remember. mr. ball. what did you do after that? mr. dhority. we carried them down to the police department and took affidavits off of them and they went to the lineup. mr. dhority. they identified oswald as the no. man in the lineup. mr. dhority. yes, sir. mr. ball. with them? mr. dhority. yes, sir. mr. ball. that was about what time of the night? mr. dhority. the lineup--i imagine was about : . mr. ball. : at night. and who was in the lineup? mr. dhority. they identified oswald as the no. man in the lineup. mr. ball. who else was in the lineup? mr. dhority. i don't know. mr. ball. you didn't have that? mr. dhority. no; i didn't hold the lineup. mr. ball. what do you call that lineup, is that the number showup in your report? mr. dhority. i don't have a report showing any numbers. mr. ball. were you with virginia and jeanette davis, standing with them? mr. dhority. yes, sir. mr. ball. and that was about what time of night, you said, : ? mr. dhority. yes. mr. ball. your records show that on november , , there was a showup at : p.m. mr. dhority. well, i don't recall exactly what time it was. mr. ball. anyway, tell me how that showup was conducted, what did you say to these people? mr. dhority. well, i was there with them and there at the time of the showup, and they both were---- mr. ball. i know--but how was it conducted--did somebody ask questions? mr. dhority. well, as i recall, somebody was holding the showup and there was other people there at the same time looking at them. mr. ball. did somebody ask questions of the men in the showup? mr. dhority. i think they did. mr. ball. did you? mr. dhority. no, sir. mr. ball. did you show these two davis girls a picture of anybody before they went in there, did you ever show them oswald's picture? mr. dhority. no; i didn't; no, sir. mr. ball. what did you tell them at the house, what did you tell them before you brought them down? mr. dhority. i just told them i wanted to take an affidavit off of them and to take them down to a showup. mr. ball. down to a showup? mr. dhority. yes, sir. mr. ball. when you were in the showup, did you say anything to them? mr. dhority. did i say anything to them? mr. ball. during the showup, did you say anything to the two girls? mr. dhority. i don't recall saying anything to them at all. mr. ball. what did they tell you? mr. dhority. they said that the no. man looked like the man, as well as i remember. mr. ball. "looked like the man"--looked like the man what? mr. dhority. i believe she said that run across her yard, as well as i remember. it's in the affidavit. mr. ball. who took the affidavit? mr. dhority. i took the one from virginia, i believe. mr. ball. and who took the one from jeanette? mr. dhority. i believe brown took that one. mr. ball. now, what did you do with the empty hull that was given to you, that virginia gave you? mr. dhority. i gave it to lieutenant day in the crime lab. mr. ball. do you know whether or not virginia or jeanette davis found an empty shell--did she tell you she found an empty shell--jeanette davis? mr. dhority. i don't recall--it seems like she told me she had found one earlier and gave it to the police out there, as well as i remember. mr. ball. gave it to the police that day? mr. dhority. yes; i believe so. mr. ball. i have here an affidavit signed "mrs. virginia davis," is that a copy of the affidavit that you took from virginia that day? mr. dhority. [reads instrument referred to.] yes, sir. mr. ball. i would like to have this and the preceding affidavits marked as exhibits nos.--mr. mcwatters' will be dhority "exhibit no. a," and mrs. davis' affidavit will be "exhibit no. b," of mr. dhority's deposition. (instruments referred to marked by the reporter as dhority "exhibits nos. a and b," for identification.) mr. ball. did you do anything more that day, friday the d? you told us you watched the preparation of the paraffin casts. mr. dhority. yes, sir. mr. ball. is there anything more you did that day? mr. dhority. i don't recall anything particularly. i did quite a bit of telephone answering of the telephone there at the city hall--there was so much going on at the city hall, i can't recall everything. mr. ball. now, on the next day, november , you took part in a showup, didn't you? mr. dhority. i didn't take part in the one on the cabdriver there. mr. ball. were you present? mr. dhority. i was present--what it was--they wanted me to take the cabdriver's--me and brown, to take the cabdriver back down to the station, and i believe we walked into the showup room while there was a showup--the showup had just started or was going on and we walked in there and mr. alexander from the district attorney's office was also there. mr. ball. did you talk to whaley? mr. dhority. no; i did not. mr. ball. was there a cab driver there named scoggins [spelling] s-c-o-g-g-i-n-s also? mr. dhority. i believe there was--there was two cabdrivers there and i know mr. alexander, down at the district attorney's office, told us they identified him. mr. ball. did whaley ever tell you he identified him? mr. dhority. no, sir. mr. ball. did you take an affidavit from whaley? mr. dhority. no, sir. mr. ball. now, were you present at some time on the th when oswald was in captain fritz' office? mr. dhority. yes, sir. mr. ball. that would be sunday, november . mr. dhority. yes, sir. mr. ball. tell us about what you did that day, on the th of november. mr. dhority. well, on--i went up to jail along with leavelle and graves and got him and brought him down to captain fritz' office that morning. mr. ball. who was present in captain fritz' office that day? mr. dhority. well, captain fritz and mr. kelley and mr. sorrels. mr. ball. mr. sorrels of the secret service? mr. dhority. and mr. holmes. mr. ball. and holmes is what? mr. dhority. of the post office department. mr. ball. what time did you bring him into fritz' office? mr. dhority. about : in the morning. mr. ball. what time did you leave there? mr. dhority. oh, i imagine it was shortly after o'clock when captain fritz gave me the keys to his car and told me to go get it down there in front of the jail office to move oswald down to the county in. mr. ball. what was said there in fritz' office that day--do you remember any of the conversations? mr. dhority. there was a lot of conversation. mr. ball. what did they talk about--the people in there? mr. dhority. well, they were talking to oswald and mr. kelley talked to him and mr. sorrels talked to him--i don't think mr. holmes talked to him too much. i think he recorded most of the interviews, as well as i remember. mr. ball. do you remember what was said? mr. dhority. i couldn't remember all that was said. mr. ball. did you make any notes? mr. dhority. no, sir; i didn't. mr. ball. was your deposition taken before? mr. dhority. yes, sir. mr. ball. by mr. hubert? mr. dhority. i don't know--it was some fbi man, as well as i remember. mr. ball. but you weren't sworn under oath, just your statement? mr. dhority. yes; i wasn't sworn under oath--no, sir. mr. ball. after they questioned oswald, what did you do? mr. dhority. well, i believe we gave him a sweater to put on. i think it was kind of cool--one of his sweaters. mr. ball. was he handcuffed? mr. dhority. yes; leavelle handcuffed himself to oswald just before i left the office. mr. ball. had he been handcuffed during the questioning in fritz' office that morning? mr. dhority. i don't recall--i didn't have my handcuffs on him. mr. ball. just before you left the office, leavelle handcuffed him--did he put one cuff on oswald and one on leavelle; is that it? mr. dhority. yes. mr. ball. fritz gave you instructions to do what? mr. dhority. he gave me the keys to his car and told me to go down and get his car and back it up front of the jail door to put oswald in. mr. ball. is that what you did? mr. dhority. i went downstairs and got his car, unlocked his car, and was in the process of backing it up there--in fact--i was just about ready to stop, when captain fritz came out and leavelle and oswald and graves and johnson and montgomery came out the jail door. captain fritz reached over to the door of the car and i was turned around to see--backing it up--still had the car moving it along and i saw someone run across the end of the car real rapid like. at first, i thought it was somebody going to take a picture and then i saw a hand come out and i heard the shot. mr. ball. graves and leavelle were there beside oswald, were they? mr. dhority. yes; beside oswald. mr. ball. oswald was between graves and leavelle? mr. dhority. that's right. mr. ball. any questions? mr. ely. yes, i have one or two. i would like to go back if i can to these lineups. you say you were present at three of them and i have taken one by one--the first one was at : p.m. on friday, the one where mr. mcwatters identified oswald. did you at that time observe the men who were lined up with oswald? mr. dhority. no; i didn't pay any attention to them, really. mr. ely. do you have any recollection of how their size and appearance compared with oswald? mr. dhority. no; i didn't study it. mr. ely. and you don't remember what they were wearing either? mr. dhority. i sure don't. mr. ely. do you remember anything unusual about oswald's behavior at that lineup, did he make a lot of noise, or did he behave just like at the other three, as far as you can remember? mr. dhority. i don't recall. mr. ely. now, do you remember how mr. mcwatters indicated his choice, in other words, did he do it in such a way that the other people present could hear who he was choosing? mr. dhority. no; he did not--it was very low. mr. ely. he said it to you, but he said it quietly so that they couldn't hear? mr. dhority. yes, sir. mr. ely. what about the other two people, did they indicate their choices out loud, or did they also indicate them quietly? mr. dhority. it was also quietly. mr. ely. in other words, none of the men could hear what the other two were saying? mr. dhority. no. mr. ely. now, the lineup where jeannette davis made the identification, did you observe anything about the appearance or clothing of the other men in that lineup? mr. dhority. no, sir; i didn't. mr. ely. do you remember how jeanette and virginia davis indicated their choices to you? mr. dhority. just standing there by them--very quietly told me. mr. ely. in more or less the same procedure as the other one? mr. dhority. yes. mr. ely. did oswald do anything unusual at that lineup? mr. dhority. i don't recall anything unusual. mr. ely. and the one saturday morning with mr. whaley--i realize you didn't participate in this one, but you were present. do you not remember anything about that? mr. dhority. i don't recall anything unusual about it at all--i sure don't. mr. ely. do you remember whether at that one oswald was yelling about something? mr. dhority. it seems like that at that one he shook his hands up and made some comment about being handcuffed. of course, they were all handcuffed--it was something like that--i can't recall for sure, but as far as any outburst or anything like that, i don't recall anything like that. mr. ely. now, your report states that you were present in captain fritz' office friday evening when the paraffin casts were made. could you estimate from what time to what time you were in fritz' office on friday evening? mr. dhority. i sure don't have any idea. mr. ely. do you know about how long you were there? mr. dhority. i sure don't. mr. ely. was it just while they were having the paraffin tests? mr. dhority. yes. mr. ely. were you there for any of the interrogation of friday evening? mr. dhority. no. mr. ely. none at all? mr. dhority. no. mr. ely. is it correct that you were at the police station until a.m. on saturday morning, is that what time you went home? mr. dhority. that sounds about right. mr. ely. do you know what time oswald was checked into the jail on friday night? mr. dhority. i sure don't. mr. ely. you had nothing to do with it, taking him up there? mr. dhority. no. mr. ely. how would you characterize oswald's behavior on sunday morning when you were present in fritz' office? was he at that time--did he seem calm or excited? mr. dhority. very calm. mr. ely. did he seem fatigued to you, or did he seem to be about the same? mr. dhority. he was very calm and fresh. mr. ely. just one more thing i would like to cover and that is the conditions in the police station surrounding fritz' office, i mean, special with regard to newspapermen being present--were the corridors filled with newspapermen--do you recall how much of a crowd was there? mr. dhority. when? mr. ely. well, let's say when you were there on friday evening. mr. dhority. they were so thick you couldn't walk through them. you had to shove your way through them to get in and out of the office. there wasn't any in the office at all, but from the elevator to the office, cameras and lights were set up so thick you just had to work your way through. mr. ely. all right, mr. ball, i don't believe i have anything else. mr. ball. mr. dhority, this will be written up. mr. dhority. the only other thing that i had to do with that that we didn't go into--now, i rode in the ambulance with oswald to the hospital. mr. ball. did he say anything? mr. dhority. well, i held his pulse all the way out there. it was very, very weak all the way and as we was turning into the hospital, the only time he showed any signs of life and he started a muscle reaction then---- mr. ball. he was unconscious, was he? mr. dhority. he was unconscious all the time, and when he went into the operating room, detective graves went in with him there and captain fritz left and told me to arrange for the security of oswald in the hospital, and i was talking to mr. price, who is the administrator of the hospital, and we were looking over a wing, when we got word that he was dead, so i went back then and contacted captain fritz by 'phone and then got oswald's clothing and had oswald's mother and wife look at oswald's body and then carried him to the morgue where i got dr. rose to photograph him with color pictures before he did the autopsy. mr. ball. now, this will all be written up and it will be submitted to you if you wish, and you can read it over and correct it and sign it if you want to, or you have the option to waive your signature, and in which event this young lady will write it up and send it on to the commission. mr. dhority. well, i will just waive my signature. mr. ball. all right. fine. thank you very much. testimony of richard m. sims the testimony of richard m. sims was taken at : a.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by messrs. joseph a. ball, john hart ely, and samuel a. stern, assistant counsel of the president's commission. dr. alfred goldberg, historian, was present. mr. ball. will you stand up and be sworn? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give before the commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. sims. i do. mr. ball. will you state your name, please? mr. sims. richard m. sims. mr. ball. and what is your business or occupation? mr. sims. police department, city of dallas. mr. ball. and what is your position with the police department? mr. sims. detective in the homicide and robbery bureau since august , . mr. ball. will you tell me something about yourself, where you were born and educated and what you have done before you went with the police department? mr. sims. i was born and raised here in dallas and i went to school--grade school in dallas, but moved out to a little city called hutchins, south of dallas, and finished my education out there, and joined the navy when i was , and was discharged when i was , and i came to work down here when i was . mr. ball. with the police department? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. ball. and you have been with them ever since? mr. sims. yes. mr. ball. and you have been with homicide how long? mr. sims. since september . mr. ball. on november , , what were your hours of duty? mr. sims. well, actually, my hours of duty were from to midnight, but because the president was going to be in dallas, i came to work early because we was assigned with captain fritz to be down at the trade mart when the president arrived. mr. ball. what time did you go to the trade mart? mr. sims. it was around o'clock, i believe. mr. ball. in the morning? mr. sims. yes, sir; a.m.--captain fritz and boyd and i. mr. ball. where were you when you heard the president had been shot? mr. sims. we were at the president's table. chief stevenson called captain fritz over and told him the president had been involved in an accident. mr. ball. that was about what time of day? mr. sims. that was about : , i believe, sir. mr. ball. what did you do then? mr. sims. chief stevenson told us to go to the hospital. parkland hospital, so we did. mr. ball. whom did you go with? mr. sims. captain fritz and boyd and i, and i drove. mr. ball. captain fritz is the head of homicide squadron, isn't he? mr. sims. yes. mr. ball. and boyd is your partner? mr. sims. yes; boyd is my partner since . mr. ball. and what did you do over there when you got to parkland? mr. sims. well, we arrived at parkland and we saw that chief curry was there in front of the hospital, so he directed us back to the depository store, down to the book store. mr. ball. tell me this--what did he say--what did he tell you to do? mr. sims. i don't remember the exact words, but he told us to go back to the store at the triple underpass--i don't remember what it was--i couldn't say for sure. mr. ball. did anybody tell you at that time that there had been anyone in the texas depository book building that had done the shooting? mr. sims. no, sir; i think at that time it was strictly speculation from where the shot had been fired. mr. ball. he just told you to go back to the scene of the shooting? mr. sims. yes--as i said, i couldn't say for sure. mr. ball. did you go back there--back to elm and houston? mr. sims. yes, sir; we went directly to the book store and sheriff bill decker rode back with us. mr. ball. and you went right to the building? mr. sims. yes, sir; and pulled up in front of it there--in front of the building. mr. ball. on the way back, did you hear anything over the radio? mr. sims. yes, sir; we heard them mention the book store. mr. ball. what did they say--what did you hear? mr. sims. well, now, i don't know. mr. ball. you heard something about it? mr. sims. yes, sir; we went there for some reason--i know that. mr. ball. was it something you heard over the radio that directed you to go there? mr. sims. we went directly to the store and parked there in front. mr. ball. what did you do after that? mr. sims. well, we took our rifles out of the car and shotgun, and proceeded to the building, went in the building. mr. ball. what door of the building did you go in? mr. sims. the front door. mr. ball. who was with you? mr. sims. captain fritz and boyd and i. mr. ball. could you tell me about what time you got to the building? mr. sims. yes, sir; i got it here--about : --about o'clock. mr. ball. the radio log of that day at : shows that the following was broadcast from the police radio log: "the witness says shots came from the fifth floor of the texas book depository store at houston and elm. i have him with me now and we are sealing off the building." do you think you heard that? mr. sims. no, sir; i wouldn't have heard that. we didn't hear about the shooting until : , but we had to have heard something or we wouldn't have went directly to the book store like we did. mr. ball. at : , there was a broadcast that stated: "all the information we have received indicates it did come from the fifth floor of that building." "which building?" "the texas depository building at elm and houston." do you know whether you could have heard that? mr. sims. well, our radio was on--i could have heard, that; yes, sir. we got to the hospital, i guess, about that time and we did have our radio on. mr. ball. when you went in the front door, who was with you? mr. sims. captain fritz, boyd, and i. mr. ball. where did you go? mr. sims. we went directly to the elevator. mr. ball. which elevator? mr. sims. the main passenger elevator. mr. ball. it was a freight elevator, wasn't it? mr. sims. no, sir; i think the passenger elevator goes to about the third floor and then the freight elevator takes over. mr. ball. you went up in the passenger elevator in the front of the building? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. ball. and you went as far as it could go, did you? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. ball. what did you do then? mr. sims. then, we caught the freight elevator. mr. ball. that would be in another part of the building? mr. sims. yes; i think it's on the north end of the building. mr. ball. did somebody direct you where to go to get the freight elevator? mr. sims. i believe--i'm not positive whether they did or not. mr. ball. and where did you go from there? mr. sims. well, we got off on the third floor and there were officers there, so we went all the way up and we started to the seventh floor, actually, and there was officers on every floor as we went up. mr. ball. and where did you go first? mr. sims. well, we stopped at the second floor, first. mr. ball. now, were you on the elevator at that time? mr. sims. no, sir--it was full of officers. mr. ball. do you know who some of the officers were? mr. sims. yes; i don't know which ones i can remember, but lieutenant revill was there, i believe. mr. ball. at : , you mentioned two officers. mr. sims. lieutenant revill and detective westphal was over there with us. mr. ball. are they with homicide? mr. sims. no, sir; they are with the special service bureau. mr. ball. what is the special service bureau? mr. sims. well, it's a combination of vice, narcotics, and undercover work. mr. ball. now, you got, you said, up to the third floor? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. ball. and where did you go then? mr. sims. well, let's see, we got off--we stopped at the second floor and went to the third floor and some officer there had a key to a room and we made a hurried search of it and there was a bunch of officers on that floor and we went on to the fourth floor, and i don't know if we got off at the fourth or not, but anyway, we got off at the seventh floor--each floor as we passed would have officers on it, and we hadn't been on the seventh floor very long--for just a while--until someone hollered that they had found the hulls on the sixth floor, so we went back to the sixth floor. mr. ball. someone on the seventh floor told you they had found the hulls? mr. sims. no, sir; someone hollered from the sixth floor that the hulls had been found. mr. ball. and you could hear them? mr. sims. yes, sir; you could hear them. mr. ball. did you go down the stairway? mr. sims. no, sir; we went back down the elevator, as well as i remember. mr. ball. and where did you go when you got off of the elevator? mr. sims. we may have had to climb the stairs from six to seven--i don't remember how high that elevator goes. i know we went back to the sixth floor. mr. ball. and where did you go when you got off at the sixth floor? mr. sims. we went over to the corner window there. mr. ball. which corner? mr. sims. it would be the one on houston and elm, that corner there--it would be the southeast corner. mr. ball. it was the southeast corner? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. ball. and what did you see? mr. sims. we saw the boxes stacked up about--i don't know--three or four stacks high and found three empty hulls laying there next to the wall of the elm street side of the building, the front of the building. mr. ball. who was there when you saw them? mr. sims. well, there was two or three officers was there when we got there, and i believe the officer that found them was still there. i have his name here someplace. mr. ball. was he a deputy sheriff? mr. sims. yes, he was a deputy sheriff. mr. ball. and who else--luke mooney? mr. sims. yes--there was two or three officers there besides us--i don't know who all. mr. ball. and did luke tell you whether or not he had moved the hulls or not? mr. sims. he said he had left them like he had found them. mr. ball. did you take a picture of those hulls? mr. sims. lieutenant day did, i believe. mr. ball. was he there right at the time? mr. sims. no, sir; he didn't get there until a few minutes later. mr. ball. did you see the picture taken of the hulls? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. ball. you saw day take the pictures, did you? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. ball. he was the cameraman, was he? mr. sims. well, there was another one there too. actually, it was detective studebaker that works for him. mr. ball. studebaker and day? mr. sims. i believe it was studebaker. mr. ball. did they both have cameras? mr. sims. i don't remember if they both had cameras or not. mr. ball. you saw one of them at least take a picture? mr. sims. yes; i know pictures was being taken. mr. ball. when the picture was taken, were the hulls in the same position as when you had first seen them? mr. sims. yes, sir; they were. mr. ball. what else did you see that day? mr. sims. well, someone then hollered--we started a search of the sixth floor then, going from east to west--all the officers, and someone had found the rifle over by the stairway. mr. ball. that would be in what corner of the building? mr. sims. that would be in actually the northwest corner of the building. mr. ball. and what happened then? mr. sims. then, we went over to where the rifle was found. mr. ball. did you see the rifle? mr. sims. yes; i saw the rifle. mr. ball. where was the rifle? mr. sims. it was laying there near a stairway, partially covered by some paper. mr. ball. did you see any pictures taken of that? of the rifle at that location? mr. sims. yes, sir; i did. mr. ball. who took that picture? mr. sims. well, it was either studebaker or lieutenant day. mr. ball. who saw the picture taken--did you? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. ball. and then what did you do? mr. sims. then we finished there and went--started to go to the city hall. mr. ball. you said you finished there, did you see anything of significance there besides these hulls and the rifle? mr. sims. no, sir. mr. ball. did you ever see a paper bag? mr. sims. well, we saw some wrappings--a brown wrapping there. mr. ball. where did you see it? mr. sims. it was there by the hulls. mr. ball. was it right there near the hulls? mr. sims. as well as i remember--of course, i didn't pay too much attention at that time, but it was, i believe, by the east side of where the boxes were piled up--that would be a guess--i believe that's where it was. mr. ball. on the east side of where the boxes were--would that be the east? mr. sims. yes, sir; it was right near the stack of boxes there. i know there was some loose paper there. mr. ball. was johnson there? mr. sims. yes, sir; when the wrapper was found captain fritz stationed johnson and montgomery to observe the scene there where the hulls were found. mr. ball. to stay there? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. ball. that was marvin johnson and l. d. montgomery who stayed by the hulls? mr. sims. yes, sir; they did. i was going back and forth, from the wrapper to the hulls. mr. ball. was the window open in the southeast corner? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. ball. were there any boxes near the window? mr. sims. yes, sir; there was enough room for someone to stand between the boxes and the window. mr. ball. were there any boxes anywhere near the window ledge? mr. sims. yes; there was, i believe, i'm not positive about this, a couple of boxes, one stacked on the other right at the left of the window and then there was a stack of boxes directly behind the window about or feet high, i guess. mr. ball. did you see anybody take a picture of the boxes in the window--what position they were on the window ledge? mr. sims. well, lieutenant day took a picture of all the surrounding area there. mr. ball. how long were you on the sixth floor of the texas school book depository building? mr. sims. well, sir; let's see--at the time the hulls were found, i think the hulls were found about : , so we were down there just a minute or two. let's see--we got back to the city hall at : and we went over and talked to sheriff decker or minutes. mr. ball. now, when you left, you say that captain fritz told johnson and montgomery to stay near the place where the hulls were located? mr. sims. yes. mr. ball. was that after the picture had been taken of the hulls? mr. sims. i believe it was during--before lieutenant day got up there, i believe. mr. ball. and it was after that that you went to the place where the rifle was found? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. ball. then did you go back to the place where the hulls were located on the floor? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. ball. that's when the picture was taken? mr. sims. no, sir; he was making pictures during that time. mr. ball. who picked up the hulls? mr. sims. well, i assisted lieutenant day in picking the hulls up. mr. ball. there were three hulls? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. ball. now, what kind of a receptacle did you put them in? mr. sims. he had an envelope. mr. ball. did he take charge of the hulls there? mr. sims. i don't know. mr. ball. did he take them in his possession, i mean? mr. sims. i don't remember if he took them in his possession then or not. mr. ball. but you helped him pick them up? mr. sims. i picked them up from the floor and he had an envelope there and he held the envelope open. mr. ball. you didn't take them in your possession, did you? mr. sims. no, sir; i don't believe i did. mr. ball. when the rifle was found, were you there? mr. sims. no, sir; we we still on the sixth floor where the hulls were, i believe. mr. ball. did you see anyone pick the rifle up off the floor? mr. sims. yes, sir; i believe lieutenant day--he dusted the rifle there for fingerprints. mr. ball. and did you see fritz do anything? mr. sims. yes, sir; he took it and ejected a live round of ammunition out of the rifle. mr. ball. do you know who took possession of that live round? mr. sims. no, sir; i don't. mr. ball. now, you left the building about what time? mr. sims. well, we arrived at the city hall around o'clock--i'll have to look at the record--on this--about : --we left there evidently about o'clock. mr. ball. you and who? mr. sims. captain fritz and boyd. mr. ball. then where did you go? mr. sims. captain fritz went over and talked to sheriff decker. he sent word he wanted to talk to captain fritz, so we talked to the sheriff and then we went to the city hall. mr. ball. where was decker when he said he wanted to talk to fritz? mr. sims. well, i didn't go inside the sheriff's office--i stayed out in the corridor there. mr. ball. the sheriff's office is just a half a block from the texas school depository building? mr. sims. yes, sir; it's across the street. mr. ball. and the city hall where your office, the police offices are located, is how far from the corner of elm and houston? mr. sims. well, that's the block there and the city hall is, let's see, in the block, i believe, so it would be blocks. mr. ball. a couple of miles--a mile and a half? mr. sims. i don't know what it is. mr. ball. when you went back to your offices, was fritz there at that time? mr. sims. no, sir; he went back with boyd and i. mr. ball. after you left decker's? mr. sims. he went back with boyd and i. mr. ball. what happened when you went back to your office? mr. sims. well, sir; we got to the office and, of course, it was full of people and i think---- mr. ball. you say it was full of people? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. ball. you mean the floor was full of people? mr. sims. our office was--i don't remember about the people. mr. ball. what people? mr. sims. officers--police officers, i don't know who all was up there, all i know is that there was a lot of people. mr. ball. had the press moved in and the television cameras at that time? mr. sims. i don't remember what time they had moved in--i don't remember. mr. ball. tell me what happened when you got back? mr. sims. well, sir, i think he talked to a detective then--he's a lieutenant now--captain fritz talked to baker and said, "while we was up in the book depository store we heard officer tippit had been shot," and so baker, i believe, told captain fritz that they had the man that had shot officer tippit, in the interrogation room. mr. ball. who was that baker? mr. sims. he was a detective then, but he's a lieutenant now. he has been in the office there for several years. mr. ball. baker told fritz that tippit had been shot? mr. sims. no, sir; that we had heard that on the sixth floor of the book store, but he told captain fritz that the man that shot officer tippit was there in the interrogation room, or something to that effect. mr. ball. what happened then? mr. sims. well, i don't know, let's see, we took oswald at : , boyd and i, took oswald from the interrogation room to captain fritz' office. mr. ball. you and boyd? mr. sims. yes. mr. ball. at : took oswald--that's the first time you saw oswald? mr. sims. yes, sir; that's right, he was there in that interrogation room. mr. ball. and who was in fritz' office at that time? mr. sims. well, let's see, during the interrogation, there was mr. bookhout, that's jim bookhout, and mr. hosty, and boyd and i and captain fritz. mr. ball. did you make notes of what was said at that time? mr. sims. no, sir; i didn't. mr. ball. did your partner, boyd, make notes, do you think? mr. sims. i don't know if he did or not. mr. ball. do you have anything from which you can refresh your memory as to what was said in that interrogation? mr. sims. no, sir. mr. ball. you have some memory of what was said, don't you? mr. sims. well, not the exact wording or the exact questions. mr. ball. give us your memory of the substance of what was said there at that time. mr. sims. well, i couldn't say that. i know that it consisted of his name and where he lived and things of that nature, and where he worked. mr. ball. now, tell us all you can remember, even though it is not complete, just tell us as much as you can remember? mr. sims. i don't remember--i know, like i say, he asked him his name and where he worked and things of that nature. mr. ball. did they ask him whether or not he had killed tippit? mr. sims. yes, sir; i believe he did. mr. ball. what did he say? mr. sims. he said, "no." mr. ball. did they ask him if he had shot the president? mr. sims. i don't remember now what--i wouldn't want to say for sure what questions he did ask him. mr. ball. who did the questioning? mr. sims. captain fritz. mr. ball. did anyone else ask him questions? mr. sims. well, i don't know if they did or not. mr. ball. did you ask him any questions? mr. sims. no, sir. mr. ball. well---- mr. sims. not at this time here, i didn't but i talked to him later on that evening. mr. ball. but you didn't ask him any questions at the time you were there then? mr. sims. no, sir; i never did actually do any interrogation myself then. mr. ball. was he handcuffed at that time? mr. sims. i don't remember if he was or not. mr. ball. wasn't he handcuffed with his handcuffs behind his back, and didn't he ask to be more comfortable? mr. sims. i don't remember. mr. ball. do you remember any incident where oswald said he would be more comfortable if he could get his hands from behind his back, or something of that sort? mr. sims. no, sir; i don't. mr. ball. do you remember changing his handcuffs at any time so that he could put his hands in front of him. mr. sims. of course, when he took the paraffin cast of his hands, he wasn't handcuffed? mr. ball. but that was late that evening? mr. sims. yes; it was around--it was after dark, i believe. mr. ball. now, i'm talking about--only about the interrogation that commenced about : in the afternoon of november . mr. sims. i just don't remember. mr. ball. you don't remember changing the handcuffs? mr. sims. no, sir; i don't. mr. ball. how long was he in captain fritz' office? mr. sims. well, let's see, we first went in there at and we stayed in there evidently--this says here that the secret service and the fbi took part in the interrogation of oswald with captain fritz, and we took him down to the first showup at : . mr. ball. then, would you say he was in captain fritz' office from about : until o'clock? mr. sims. well, he had to be either in captain fritz' office or the interrogation room--that's the only two places that he was kept. mr. ball. all right, do you have any memory of how long he was in captain fritz' office the first time for the interrogation? mr. sims. no, sir; i don't recall if he stayed in there from : until showup time at : or not. he may have stayed in there all that time or he may have been put back in the interrogation room, which is right next door. mr. ball. where is the interrogation room from captain fritz' office? mr. sims. it's in the same office, but just a different room--there's just a hall separating them. mr. ball. and in the interrogation room, were you with oswald? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. ball. you and boyd? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. ball. when he was in the interrogation room for the first showup, did you ask him any questions? mr. sims. yes; we talked to him. mr. ball. do you remember what you said to him? mr. sims. no, sir; i don't remember--it was just--i know i asked him about his--later on i asked him about his life in russia and about him being in the service and things of that nature. mr. ball. did you ask him that at this time? before the first showup at : ? mr. sims. i don't remember what time it was. mr. ball. there was sometime then that you asked him about his life in russia? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. ball. are you able to tell us about what time that was? mr. sims. no, sir; i sure don't know what time it was. mr. ball. could it have been after he had been in captain fritz' office and and before the first showup? mr. sims. it was after he had been in captain fritz' office; yes, sir. mr. ball. and it was in the interrogation room? mr. sims. i--well, i don't know--i have talked to him both places, and i don't know--i know he wouldn't talk at all about the assassination of the president or of officer tippit, but he would talk about his life in russia and some things over here and about his family and things. mr. ball. now, you say he wouldn't talk about the assassination of the president, what do you mean? mr. sims. well, he would just deny knowledge of it. mr. ball. and you say he wouldn't talk about officer tippit's death, what do you mean by that; what would he say, if anything? mr. sims. well, he would make some remark and he just wouldn't talk about it. mr. ball. well, did he ever deny that he had anything to do with it? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. ball. he did? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. ball. did he ever make any admission to you that he had any knowledge of officer tippit's death? mr. sims. not at all; no, sir. mr. ball. did he ever make any admission to you that he had any knowledge of the shooting of the president at all? mr. sims. none at all. mr. ball. when he did talk to you about his life in russia, what did you say? mr. sims. well, i would ask him where he lived and he told me. mr. ball. what did he tell you? mr. sims. well, i've forgotten the name of the town he said he lived in. mr. ball. irving, tex.? mr. sims. no, sir; in russia. mr. ball. oh, in russia--i see--what did he say? mr. sims. well, it was some town i didn't know about it, but he did say he lived in moscow, i believe it was. mr. ball. anything else? mr. sims. well, he said he worked in a factory and he liked everything over there except the weather. mr. ball. do you remember anything else he said? mr. sims. well, no, sir; we talked about--just a general discussion about the cars over there and the appliances, and just talked to him about it. mr. ball. did he tell you about his wife? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. ball. what did he say? mr. sims. i don't remember what he said about his wife--he wouldn't talk about her much. mr. ball. or his children? mr. sims. he said he had some children; yes, sir. mr. ball. did he say anything else except he had some children? mr. sims. i believe he said he had--i don't know if he told me he had a brother or not. mr. ball. there was one time there that you learned that he had a room at north beckley--when did you learn that? mr. sims. i don't know when that was, now, that was found out that first day, i believe. another officer went out and searched his room and also went to irving, i believe. mr. ball. the officers went out and searched the room sometime that afternoon, around : . mr. sims. that's right, i believe so. mr. ball. can you tell me whether or not you are the one that found out he had a room at north beckley? mr. sims. no, sir; i didn't. mr. ball. he didn't tell you that? mr. sims. no, sir; i don't believe he did. mr. ball. all right. did he tell you that his wife lived in irving, tex.? mr. sims. i don't remember if he told me that or not. mr. ball. now, the first showup was at what time? mr. sims. at : . mr. ball. how did you conduct that showup? mr. sims. well, we took oswald down with us with the two police officers. mr. ball. what two police officers? mr. sims. clark and perry. mr. ball. you say you took him down--where was he when you took him down? mr. sims. he was in our office, captain fritz' office. mr. ball. that would be on the second floor? mr. sims. third floor. mr. ball. on the third floor? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. ball. and where did you take him? mr. sims. well, we walked out of our door and turned left, and you go a few feet and go to the elevator--where the waiting room for the elevator is--it's a locked door, and then go from there to the basement of the city hall and then go from the elevator there to the holdover room next to the stage, the showup stage. mr. ball. you have a special place for showups, do you? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. ball. and would you describe it? mr. sims. yes, sir; in front of it is the detail room, where the officers get their assignments every day before they go out in the squads, and the platform is a raised platform--i guess it's or - / or feet raised above the floor and it has got a black--some type of a cloth screen with floodlights at the top and down at the bottom. mr. ball. is it a cloth screen between the---- mr. sims. between the suspects and the witnesses we have. mr. ball. the stage and the outer part of the room? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. ball. are there seats in the room? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. ball. what kind of seats? mr. sims. they are just a regular chair--with a long desk, something like this here. mr. ball. you say you took oswald down with a couple of the officers? mr. sims. yes, sir; two of the officers went with us--perry and clark. mr. ball. and they are dallas police department officers, are they? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. ball. and why did you have to have them come down with you? mr. sims. i don't know why they did. mr. ball. who instructed them to go with you? mr. sims. i don't know that. i know they said they were there for the showup so we went with them. mr. ball. during the showup, were they part of the showup? mr. sims. yes; they participated in the showup; they were with oswald and this jailer. mr. ball. how were they dressed? mr. sims. i believe one of them pulled his coat off, and i don't know how they were dressed, but one of them pulled his coat off--i know. mr. ball. were they handcuffed? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. ball. they were handcuffed together? mr. sims. yes; all of them was handcuffed. mr. ball. now, there were four of them altogether? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. ball. in the showup? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. ball. what were their names? mr. sims. they were--well, it would be clark and perry and oswald. mr. ball. give their full names, if you will. mr. sims. all right. mr. ball. and what their position is with the dallas police department. mr. sims. no. was bill perry, w. e. perry, he was no. , with the dallas police department, and no. was lee harvey oswald, and no. was r. l. clark with the dallas police department, and no. was don ables, who is a civilian jail clerk. mr. ball. and who selected don ables to be in the showup? mr. sims. i don't know who selected him. mr. ball. does he have his office in the jail? mr. sims. well, yes, sir; the jail office--he works in there. mr. ball. can you give me just a general description of what these fellows look like? mr. sims. yes, sir; w. e. perry, he is years of age, ' / " and about , i believe and that's a guess, now. he has brown hair, blue eyes, and dark complexion. richard l. clark is , ' / ", , has blond hair, blue eyes, and ruddy complexion. now, these weights could be different now--i don't know. don ables is , ' ", , and brown hair. mr. ball. what kind of complexion does don ables have? mr. sims. i don't have that here--i believe he's just ruddy complexion, i believe. mr. ball. now, in the showup, where were you, on the stage or in the audience? mr. sims. i was on the stage. mr. ball. and did you hear anything that was said from the audience part of the showup? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. ball. what did you hear? mr. sims. well, someone was asking each one in the showup a few questions. mr. ball. do you know who that was that asked the questions in the first showup? mr. sims. i'm not positive, but i believe it was detective leavelle in our office conducted the first showup. mr. ball. and what questions did they ask? mr. sims. i couldn't say the exact questions, but as a rule, his age and address and where he went to school and where he was born and just a few questions like that, just to have them say a few words. mr. ball. did leavelle ask all of the questions? mr. sims. he asked all four of the men in the showup. mr. ball. how did oswald act at this showup; tell me what he did and what he said? mr. sims. well, he just acted more or less like the other--acted natural. mr. ball. answered the questions? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. ball. did he protest any? mr. sims. no, sir. mr. ball. did he say that he had a t-shirt on and no one else had a t-shirt on? mr. sims. no, sir; now, i think the showup that i didn't conduct the next day, i believe he refused to answer questions or said something about a t-shirt or something. mr. ball. he didn't say anything of that sort? mr. sims. no, sir; he acted normal, with the other showups i was in. mr. ball. he answered the questions? mr. sims. yes, sir; he did. mr. ball. did you hear anything else from the audience side of the showup? mr. sims. no, sir. mr. ball. do you know the names of any witnesses that were out there? mr. sims. no, sir; i didn't know who was out there. mr. ball. did you talk to any of the witnesses that were out there? mr. sims. no, sir; i didn't. mr. ball. either before or after the showup, did you talk to any of the witnesses out there? mr. sims. i don't believe i did--i don't believe so. mr. ball. did you take any statements from any of the witnesses in this showup? mr. sims. no, sir. mr. ball. after this showup, what did you do? mr. sims. we brought oswald back to the office there. mr. ball. to the interrogation room? mr. sims. no, sir; back to captain fritz' office at : . mr. ball. at : ? mr. sims. yes. mr. ball. who was present in captain fritz' office at that time? mr. sims. the fbi agents and secret service agents talked to oswald some more. mr. ball. what were their names? mr. sims. i don't know their names. mr. ball. you didn't record the names of the secret service officers? mr. sims. no, sir. mr. ball. now, do you remember how long this interrogation of oswald took place? mr. sims. well, sir, we took him back to the second showup at : , so that would be a matter of hours. now, whether he was in captain fritz' office all this time or in the interrogation room some of the time or captain fritz' office all the time, i don't remember. mr. ball. now, at this second interrogation at captain fritz' office beginning at : , was oswald handcuffed? mr. sims. well, now, i can't tell you--i don't remember if he were handcuffed or not. mr. ball. did you make any notes of what was said at that time? mr. sims. no, sir; i never did make any notes of any of the interrogation. mr. ball. do you remember anything that was said at : ? mr. sims. no, sir; i couldn't. mr. ball. do you have any memory at all? mr. sims. no. mr. ball. could you make any kind of an attempt to testify to what you heard there? mr. sims. no, sir; i couldn't say for sure what was said or what he told captain fritz or the agents either. mr. ball. did you ask any questions? mr. sims. no, sir; the only time i would talk to him would be when captain fritz would be out of the office and then boyd and i, or whoever was in the office with him would talk to him. mr. ball. but at this time when the secret service and the fbi were in captain fritz' office, did you ask any questions at that time? mr. sims. no. mr. ball. did anyone--any secret service man or any fbi man ask him questions at that time? mr. sims. yes; they asked him questions. mr. ball. did you know those men? mr. sims. well, i know a good many of them here--i didn't have their names--i don't remember who it was. mr. ball. you don't remember who was in there at the time? mr. sims. no, sir. mr. ball. now, at : there was another showup, was there? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. ball. and where was oswald before you took him to that showup? mr. sims. he would be there in captain fritz' office there in the city hall. mr. ball. and you took him where? mr. sims. back down to the same stage--on the stage there. mr. ball. who was in this second showup? mr. sims. the same officers and the jail clerk that was with him on the first one. mr. ball. mention their names again. mr. sims. all right, the second showup was at : , approximately, and there was w. e. perry, police officer, richard clark, police department, and don ables, jail civilian clerk. mr. ball. were these men handcuffed at this time? mr. sims. yes, sir; they were handcuffed. mr. ball. were they dressed the same? mr. sims. i believe so; yes, sir. mr. ball. were they dressed differently than oswald? mr. sims. yes; i know they didn't have the color of clothes on or things like that. mr. ball. did they have ties on? mr. sims. i don't recall if they did or not. mr. ball. oswald had a t-shirt on, didn't he? mr. sims. he had on a brown shirt, some kind of a brown shirt, and he had a white t-shirt on underneath that. mr. ball. underneath that? mr. sims. yes; underneath that. mr. ball. his clothes were rougher looking than the other men? mr. sims. well, i don't imagine that he would be dressed as nice as the officers were, as far as their clothes. mr. ball. well, the other three men that were in the showup, did they have coats on--did anyone have a coat on? mr. sims. well, i don't believe--mr. ables--i'm pretty sure he didn't have a coat on and don't believe any of the officers had them on--i don't remember how they was dressed as far as their coats go. mr. ball. do you remember whether or not they had ties on? mr. sims. no, sir; i don't. mr. ball. who conducted the showup? mr. sims. well, the second showup, i'm not positive, but i believe i conducted the second showup. mr. ball. how did you conduct it? mr. sims. well, they are all under a number and i would have them--one, two, three, and four, and no. stand on that center back square there and give their names and age and address and if they own a car, where they went to school, where they were born, where they were raised. mr. ball. did you know who was out in the audience with the witnesses? mr. sims. no, sir; i didn't. mr. ball. do you know the names of any of the witnesses? mr. sims. no, sir; i didn't. mr. ball. did you hear any conversation that came from the audience side of the showup? mr. sims. none that i can recall. mr. ball. now, did you give us in your first showup the numbers assigned to these people? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. ball. nos. , , , and ? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. ball. all right. mr. sims. i'm sure i did. mr. ball. well, i wasn't sure you did, but give us the numbers assigned to the second showup. mr. sims. the first showup at : was no. , bill perry, lee oswald, r. l. clark, and don ables. mr. ball. that was the order--one, two, three, four? mr. sims. yes, sir; one, two, three, four. mr. ball. now, give us the order of the second showup? mr. sims. numbered the same for the second showup. mr. ball. the same numbers? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. ball. the same men? mr. sims. same men and same numbers. mr. ball. after that showup, what did you do? mr. sims. we went back to captain fritz' office, and let me see, at : , we left the showup and went back to captain fritz' office. mr. ball. and what did you do then? mr. sims. we stayed with oswald. mr. ball. now, in your report, you mentioned that a murder complaint was signed by fritz that evening? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. ball. were you present when that happened? mr. sims. yes. mr. ball. was oswald present also? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. ball. he was present when the murder complaint was signed? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. ball. where did this take place? mr. sims. in captain fritz' office. mr. ball. and who was present? mr. sims. well, let me see--justice of the peace dave johnston, and assistant district attorney bill alexander, and i don't know who else was there--i don't know who else was present. mr. ball. was the judge there--the justice judge--the j.p., dave johnston? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. ball. and bill alexander and fritz? mr. sims. yes. mr. ball. and you? and boyd? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. ball. and oswald was there? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. ball. was anything said to oswald about the signing of a murder complaint? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. ball. what was said, and who said it? mr. sims. i don't remember what was said--i know judge johnston talked to him and captain fritz talked to him. mr. ball. and did alexander talk to him? mr. sims. i believe he did, but i'm not positive about that. mr. ball. do you remember what judge johnston said? mr. sims. no, sir; i don't. mr. ball. do you remember what oswald said? mr. sims. no, sir. mr. ball. did anyone tell him that a murder complaint was being filed against him? mr. sims. i believe so; yes, sir. mr. ball. for what murder? mr. sims. for officer tippit. mr. ball. do you remember what oswald said? mr. sims. no, sir; i don't. mr. ball. then what did you do with oswald after that? mr. sims. at : we entered the third showup. mr. ball. now, at : an fbi agent came in, didn't he, according to your records? mr. sims. yes, sir; at : --we sat in the office with oswald and mr. clements of the fbi came in and interrogated oswald. mr. ball. you and boyd were there? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. ball. what did clements ask him? mr. sims. i don't remember the questions he asked him. mr. ball. did you hear what oswald said? mr. sims. yes, sir; but i don't remember what the answers were. mr. ball. then, when was the next showup? mr. sims. at : . mr. ball. and who were the men in the third showup? mr. sims. well, the third showup was no. --a richard walker [spelling] b-o-r-c-h-g-a-r-d-t. mr. ball. borchgardt--what is his address; do you have that? mr. sims. no, sir; i don't have his address. he was a city prisoner. mr. ball. do you know what he was charged with at that time? mr. sims. no, sir--i have his arrest number and his i.d. number. mr. ball. and then was he no. ? mr. sims. no. ---- mr. ball. and who else? mr. sims. no. was lee harvey oswald. mr. ball. who was three? mr. sims. ellis carl brazel. mr. ball. who was he? mr. sims. he was a city prisoner. mr. ball. do you know what he was charged with? mr. sims. no, sir; i didn't. mr. ball. do you know his address? mr. sims. no, sir. mr. ball. do you know what happened to him? mr. sims. i believe he's in the penitentiary. mr. ball. brazel is in the penitentiary? mr. sims. i believe so--i'm not positive. mr. ball. who was no. ? mr. sims. no. was don ables. mr. ball. that's the jail clerk? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. ball. do you remember how these men were dressed? mr. sims. no, sir; i don't, i don't remember how they were dressed. mr. ball. did they have coats on? mr. sims. i don't remember if they had coats on or not. mr. ball. were they all handcuffed? mr. sims. yes. mr. ball. together? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. ball. who conducted this showup? mr. sims. i don't remember who actually had the suspects to talk or who was out in front. mr. ball. you were on the stage side? mr. sims. still on the stage side; yes, sir. mr. ball. and did someone from the audience side conduct the showup and ask the questions? mr. sims. yes. mr. ball. did oswald answer the questions? mr. sims. yes. mr. ball. was he dressed differently than the other three at that time? mr. sims. well, he was dressed differently but i don't know--how differently he was dressed. mr. ball. what did he have on? mr. sims. he still had on the same clothes he was arrested in, so far as i know. mr. ball. in all three showups he had on the same clothes you described before? mr. sims. i believe he did. mr. ball. here is commission no. , is that the shirt he had on? mr. sims. yes; that's the color shirt he had on. mr. ball. and then he had on a t-shirt? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. ball. is that the shirt he had on? mr. sims. well--one that color--yes, sir. mr. ball. now, in this showup, did you know any of the witnesses that were in the audience side? mr. sims. well, i knew about them, but i didn't know who was out there--no, sir. mr. ball. did you talk to them? mr. sims. no, sir. mr. ball. did you ever take a witness' statement from any of the witnesses at either of the three showups? mr. sims. never did---- mr. ball. after that showup, what did you do? mr. sims. well, we took him back up to captain fritz' office. mr. ball. about what time was this? mr. sims. : . mr. ball. and who was there at that time? mr. sims. mr. clements, and he continued his interrogation of oswald for about another half hour. mr. ball. and were you present? mr. sims. i probably was; yes, sir. mr. ball. who was present besides you? mr. sims. i couldn't say--i know boyd was and i was present, but i don't know if he was in there all the time or not. mr. ball. now, during this time, or sometime during this period--sometime between these three showups, you searched oswald, didn't you? mr. sims. the first one; yes, sir. mr. ball. and that was what time? mr. sims. it was : , i believe, but i will have to check my record here and see [checking his record referred to]. mr. ball. that was after the second showup? mr. sims. no, sir; the first one. mr. ball. after the first showup? mr. sims. it was before the first showup. mr. ball. it was before the first showup--the : ? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. ball. and that was after the first interrogation? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. ball. and where were you when you first searched him? mr. sims. we was in the holdover, in other words, the showup room. mr. ball. when you took oswald down for the first showup and waited in the room outside, the showup room, you searched him? mr. sims. yes; boyd and i. mr. ball. what did you find? mr. sims. i found a bus transfer slip in his shirt pocket. mr. ball. and what else? mr. sims. well, boyd found some . cartridges in his pocket. mr. ball. how many? mr. sims. i don't know--i have it here--i believe it's five rounds of . caliber pistol shells in his left front pocket. mr. ball. left-front shirt pocket? mr. sims. no, sir; they were in his pants pocket. mr. ball. left front? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. ball. where was the transfer? mr. sims. the transfer was in his shirt pocket. mr. ball. would that be on the left side, i suppose? mr. sims. i don't know if he's got two pockets or not. mr. ball. let's take a look at it. mr. sims. (examined exhibit hereinafter referred to). mr. ball. commission exhibit is being exhibited for the witness' examination. mr. sims. well, he's got two pockets in here and let's see if i have it on here--what pocket it was--i didn't say--i don't remember what pocket he had that in. mr. ball. what did you do with the transfer? mr. sims. i went back up to the office and i believe initialed it and placed it in an envelope for identification. mr. ball. who did you turn it over to? mr. sims. i don't remember. mr. ball. you don't remember? mr. sims. no, sir; it was either in the lieutenant's desk or captain fritz' desk. mr. ball. lieutenant who? mr. sims. we have two in there--lieutenant wells and lieutenant bohart. mr. ball. and what about the five rounds of live ammunition, what did you do with those? mr. sims. it was also placed in the envelope. mr. ball. and turned over to whom--fritz? mr. sims. i don't know who that was turned over to. mr. ball. did you ever talk to a busdriver named mcwatters? mr. sims. no, sir; i remember a busdriver coming up there but i don't think i talked with him. mr. ball. did you ever examine the transfer for the punchmark date? mr. sims. the busdriver did. he identified that as coming from his punch-card. mr. ball. i know, but i want to know about you--did you look at the transfer? mr. sims. yes, sir; i looked at it. mr. ball. did you look at the date and the time that it was punched on the transfer? mr. sims. i don't remember if i did or not. i'm sure i looked at it but i don't remember. mr. ball. you say it was shown to a busdriver and he made some remarks about it; were you there when it was shown to the busdriver? mr. sims. no, sir. mr. ball. so, you are just telling me what some other officer told you? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. ball. all right. mr. sims. i didn't see actually the busdriver, i don't believe, identify his transfer. mr. ball. do you know the officer that showed the transfer to the busdriver? mr. sims. no, sir; i don't. mr. ball. did you see any identification bracelet on oswald? mr. sims. yes, sir; he had an identification bracelet. mr. ball. did he have that on at the time of the showup? mr. sims. yes. mr. ball. did you ever remove that? mr. sims. yes, sir; when they were getting his paraffin cast on his hands. mr. ball. and what did you do with that identification bracelet? mr. sims. i placed it in the property room cardsheet. mr. ball. did you examine that identification bracelet? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. ball. what did it have on it, if you remember? mr. sims. it had his name on it. mr. ball. and what was it made out of? what material? mr. sims. it was, i guess, sterling silver. it was a regular g.i. identification bracelet with a chain and then his nameplate across the top. mr. ball. now, we are up to the time after the last showup when mr. clements interrogated oswald for about half an hour; what happened after the interrogation by mr. clements? mr. sims. at : detective johnny hicks and r. l. studebaker of the crime lab came to captain fritz' office. mr. ball. what did they do? mr. sims. hicks fingerprinted oswald and then sgt. pete barnes came in. mr. ball. what is his name? mr. sims. pete barnes. he is working with the crime lab also. mr. ball. and what did barnes do? mr. sims. well, he may have assisted in the fingerprinting--i don't know for sure. mr. ball. is he a crime lab man also? mr. sims. yes, sir, and then shortly later, capt. george doughty came in, he's in charge of the crime lab. mr. ball. and what did he do? mr. sims. he just stayed a few minutes. mr. ball. how do you spell his name? mr. sims. (spelling). d-o-u-g-h-t-y--george doughty. mr. ball. now, did they make paraffin tests? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. ball. they made casts at that time? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. ball. of what? mr. sims. (reading from instrument in his possession). "he and barnes made paraffin casts of both hands and also the right side of his face." mr. ball. that "he and barnes"--who is "he"? mr. sims. that would be johnny hicks, i think. mr. ball. that was johnny hicks and lieutenant barnes? mr. sims. yes, sir; and barnes is a sergeant. mr. ball. sergeant barnes and johnny hicks made the paraffin casts? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. ball. of both hands and what side of his face? mr. sims. and also the right side of his face. mr. ball. of whose face? mr. sims. oswald's face. mr. ball. were you there when they were made? mr. sims. i was in the room--most of the time i was. mr. ball. what time were these paraffin casts made? mr. sims. we started the fingerprinting at : , i believe, they lasted a good long while--i don't know how long. mr. ball. what time were the paraffin casts made? mr. sims. i don't have any idea--it was sometime after : . mr. ball. can you give me an outside limit on it? mr. sims. well, sir, they started the fingerprinting at : , i guess--that would take--just a rough guess, or minutes to do that, and they had to heat their wax first and make the preparations then for the paraffin tests. mr. ball. would you say that the paraffin tests were made not later than o'clock that day? mr. sims. not later than ? mr. ball. yes, sir. mr. sims. no, sir; i couldn't say. i know that they were in the office there all this time making these paraffin casts of his hands and his face. mr. ball. then what happened? mr. sims. well, at : p.m., barratt and i made out the arrest sheets on oswald. mr. ball. where was oswald then? mr. sims. he was there and he was still in the office there. mr. ball. did you make the arrest sheets out in front of him while he was there in the office? mr. sims. i don't know if he was present when we did it or not. mr. ball. but he was still in the interrogation room of captain fritz' office? mr. sims. yes, sir; he was in one or the other; yes, sir. mr. ball. who had charge of him when you made out the arrest sheets? mr. sims. i don't know who that would be. mr. ball. what did you do after that? mr. sims. we made out the arrest sheets on oswald and shortly afterwards chief curry and captain fritz came into the office there, came back to the office, and told us to take oswald down out in front of the stage at the showup room. mr. ball. why did you do that? mr. sims. because we were told to. mr. ball. was that usual to do that? mr. sims. is it usual? mr. ball. yes. mr. sims. yes; it's unusual. mr. ball. unusual to do it? mr. sims. yes. mr. ball. he didn't tell you why he did it? mr. sims. no, sir. mr. ball. what did you do it for? mr. sims. just for the press, i believe. mr. ball. for the press? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. ball. what did you do? mr. sims. we--shortly before midnight--we took him down to the--they call it--it's where the officers meet there, where the showup room is--the assembly room. mr. ball. and was he on the stage? mr. sims. no, sir. mr. ball. where was he? mr. sims. he was in front of the stage. mr. ball. and--in front of the stage? mr. sims. yes. mr. ball. and what happened? mr. sims. well, he had--the room was full of newspapermen. mr. ball. and what did they do? mr. sims. well, i believe they had a little short interview there with him. mr. ball. did they ask him questions? mr. sims. yes. mr. ball. did he answer? mr. sims. he answered; yes, sir. mr. ball. were the television cameras in there also? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. ball. and this was about what time? mr. sims. well, it would be about --we kept him in there about minutes and went to the jail office about : , so that would have been about, i guess, about : . mr. ball. tell me exactly what chief curry told you before you took him down there--what were his exact instructions? mr. sims. i don't believe chief curry said anything to me. mr. ball. captain fritz told you to take him down there? mr. sims. we were told to take him down to the press--to the police assembly room. mr. ball. who gave you those specific orders? mr. sims. well, i couldn't say who gave me those specific orders. mr. ball. do you think it was fritz? mr. sims. i just don't remember who it was. mr. ball. you have stated in your notes that chief curry came to fritz' office and told you to take oswald down in front of the stage at the showup room? mr. sims. let's see (reading from instrument in his possession) "* * * shortly afterwards chief curry and captain fritz came to captain fritz' office and told us to take oswald down out in front of the stage at the showup room." mr. ball. does that look like it was curry that told you that? mr. sims. i don't know which one of them told us. mr. ball. did one of the two tell you? mr. sims. yes; evidently they did. mr. ball. and what else did they tell you? mr. sims. (reading from instrument in his hand.) "chief curry gave us instructions not to let anyone touch oswald, and if they attempted to do so, for us to take him to jail immediately." mr. ball. this was in connection with the press interview with oswald, wasn't it? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. ball. do you remember what questions were asked oswald? mr. sims. no, sir; i don't. mr. ball. did they ask him whether or not he had shot the president? mr. sims. i believe that was asked--yes, sir. mr. ball. what did he tell them? mr. sims. he told them "no." mr. ball. did they ask him if he had killed tippit or shot tippit? mr. sims. i don't remember if they did or not--it was just a bunch of them hollering at him--that's all i remember. mr. ball. a bunch of them doing what? mr. sims. a bunch of them hollering at him--talking to him. mr. ball. were they talking loud? mr. sims. yes, sir; it was pretty noisy. mr. ball. now, you took him back to the jail office at : ? mr. sims. yes; we took him back to the jail office at : a.m. on november the d. mr. ball. and you turned him over to the jailer? mr. sims. no, sir; we took him up to the fourth floor. mr. ball. and what did you do then? mr. sims. we turned him over to the jailers there. mr. ball. you turned him over to the jailers on the fourth floor? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. ball. now, the next day, did you see him? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. ball. what time did you go to work? mr. sims. well, let's see, i arrived for work at : a.m. mr. ball. and when did you first see oswald? mr. sims. we checked at : a.m.--we checked--boyd and i checked lee harvey oswald out of jail and brought him to captain fritz' office for questioning. mr. ball. who was present at that time? mr. sims. let's see, mr. bookhout of the fbi and robert nash who is the u.s. marshal, mr. kelley of the secret service. mr. ball. and who else? mr. sims. and that was all. mr. ball. and yourself? mr. sims. no, sir; i believe it says here--"boyd and hall stayed in the office during the interrogation." mr. ball. you weren't in there? mr. sims. no, sir. mr. ball. do you know why you left--did you have something else to do? mr. sims. no, sir; i don't know if i was called out or what. mr. ball. and how long did that interrogation take? mr. sims. we returned him back to the jail at : a.m. mr. ball. what did you do after that? mr. sims. then, shortly afterward, myself and boyd and hall and detective c. n. dhority, (spelling) d-h-o-r-i-t-y--we went to oswald's room at north beckley. mr. ball. who told you to do that? mr. sims. captain fritz. mr. ball. and what did you do out there? mr. sims. we made another search of his room. mr. ball. what do you mean by "search"--did you have a search warrant? mr. sims. i don't remember if we had a search warrant or not. mr. ball. you went in the house, did you? mr. sims. yes; we went in the house. mr. ball. did you talk to the owner, mrs. johnson? mr. sims. yes; we talked to him. mr. ball. mr. or mrs.--which one? mr. sims. i believe both of them was there; i'm not positive about that. mr. ball. and you went into oswald's room, didn't you? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. ball. and what did you see? mr. sims. i think all we found in there was a paper clip or something of that nature. i don't remember what it was. mr. ball. a paper clip? mr. sims. we didn't find anything. mr. ball. did you take anything away with you? mr. sims. yes, sir; we took the paper clip and a rubber band or something--i don't know what it was--it wasn't anything to speak of, i know, the room was clean. mr. ball. what time did you arrive and what time did you leave? mr. sims. well, shortly after : we left--we arrived at : and left at : . mr. ball. what did you do after that? mr. sims. well---- mr. ball. in the afternoon, did you work on this case? on the oswald case? mr. sims. yes; i'm sure we did. mr. ball. do you remember what you did? mr. sims. no, sir; i don't. mr. ball. did you talk to any witnesses? mr. sims. no, sir; i didn't talk to any. mr. ball. did you take any statements? mr. sims. no. mr. ball. when was the next time you saw oswald? mr. sims. at o'clock. mr. ball. what did you do then? mr. sims. we brought him back to captain fritz' office. mr. ball. who are "we"? mr. sims. myself, m. g. hall, and detective l. c. graves. mr. ball. where was boyd when you did that? mr. sims. i don't know. mr. ball. he wasn't with you at that time? mr. sims. no, sir. mr. ball. where did you get oswald? mr. sims. from the jail. mr. ball. you took him to fritz' office? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. ball. how long did you stay there? mr. sims. we returned him at--myself, hall, and graves--returned him at : to the jail. mr. ball. now, were you in captain fritz' office during that interrogation? mr. sims. no; i don't believe i was. mr. ball. do you know what you did after that? mr. sims. no, sir; i don't know what i did after that. mr. ball. did you ever see oswald again? mr. sims. no, sir; i never did see him again. mr. ball. were you on duty on the th? mr. sims. no, sir; i was off that day. mr. ball. and you heard of oswald's death over the radio; is that right? mr. sims. over the television. mr. ball. you watched it over television, did you? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. ball. do you fellows have any suggestions for questions--you might go ahead and ask him any questions if you have any? mr. stern. yes; i have a few things i would like to ask him with reference to this--i'm not sure that we identified his notes and i believe we ought to do that. you were reading from or referring to a memorandum that you made when, mr. sims? mr. sims. in regards to the president's assassination and the killing of officer tippit. mr. stern. when did you make the memorandum? mr. sims. i don't know--it was shortly after the th. mr. stern. within or days? mr. sims. the same week--yes, sir. mr. stern. and you made it with your partner, officer boyd, the two of you? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. stern. you worked it out together? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. stern. let the record show that this is a memorandum that appears as commission document -b, at pages through . was this memorandum made from notes that you noted at various times as the things occurred? mr. sims. notes and memory. mr. stern. they were made from your notes and memory? mr. sims. from my notes and memory. mr. stern. and those notes were destroyed when the memorandum was prepared? mr. sims. mr. boyd may have his--i don't have mine. mr. stern. you don't have your notes? mr. sims. no, sir; i don't have mine. mr. stern. the memorandum quotes a number of times--a very specific figure--is this because you had some record of these times? mr. sims. we keep records of the time that things happen. mr. stern. to the nearest minutes? mr. sims. yes. mr. stern. and that's why you can be so precise in your memorandum? mr. sims. that's right. mr. stern. the information you gave us a little earlier describing the two police and the jail clerk that were in the first two lineups, your statement there was based upon notes that you brought here with you; is that right? mr. sims. you mean their descriptions? mr. stern. yes; their descriptions. mr. sims. yes, sir; i got the descriptions after i was notified to be over here. mr. stern. do you know these individuals? mr. sims. yes; i know them. mr. stern. and these descriptions are accurate? mr. sims. well, i don't know about the weight. i got this off of their descriptions we have up there in the id bureau in the personnel file--that weight, i believe, perry's--i just guessed at the weight. mr. stern. do you have the same descriptions available for the two city prisoners? mr. sims. yes, sir; i have those. mr. stern. would you tell us what those are? mr. sims. yes, sir. richard walter borchgardt, he is years of age, ' ", pounds, blue eyes, blond hair, and ruddy complexion. ellis carl brazel [spelling] b-r-a-z-e-l, he's years of age, ' ", pounds. now, this weight could be one way or the other because this was at the time that they were arrested when they got this description. mr. stern. this information was obtained from police records? mr. sims. yes, sir. he has green eyes, blond hair, and ruddy complexion. mr. stern. as far as you now remember, does it accurately describe the two? mr. sims. i couldn't say. i know it was what we had in our identification jacket--these are their descriptions. mr. stern. but you have no independent recollection now of their description? mr. sims. no, sir. mr. stern. at page of your memorandum, in describing events at the school book depository, the memorandum states, and this occurred just after lieutenant day picked up the rifle and dusted it for fingerprints--the memorandum states: "some man then called captain fritz, and he walked over to where the man was. this man gave captain fritz the name of lee harvey oswald and his home address in irving, tex." would you give me something more about that--how oswald's name came up and in what context the name was given? mr. sims. yes, sir; this man, i believe, was some supervisor there at the store, and he gave captain fritz oswald's name and address. mr. stern. do you know why he gave it to him? in what connection he gave it to him? mr. sims. i'm not positive about this, but i believe that oswald was missing. mr. stern. i see. mr. sims. in other words, most of the employees returned back to their jobs after the assassination. mr. stern. do you know whether any other employees were missing? mr. sims. no; i don't. mr. stern. but as far as you know, that was the only name mentioned? mentioned by the supervisor at the book depository? mr. sims. as far as i know; yes. mr. stern. now, the search in which you participated of oswald at : on friday, just before the first showup--you have told us that either you or mr. boyd found five live rounds of . caliber pistol shells, and a bus transfer slip, and an identification bracelet, according to your memorandum--oswald took his ring off and gave it to you? mr. sims. that's right. mr. stern. do you recall that? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. stern. do you remember anything else that was found on oswald at that time? mr. sims. no, sir; i don't remember anything else. mr. stern. a wallet or identification card? mr. sims. no, sir; that had been taken off of him. mr. stern. that had been taken off of him upon his arrest at the time of his arrest? mr. sims. well, i don't know when, but he didn't have it on. mr. stern. did you say anything to him at that time about the ownership of these things, about the ownership of the pistol shells--cartridges--did you comment on that? mr. sims. no, sir. mr. stern. did he say anything about it? mr. sims. no, sir; there was no comment at all. mr. stern. or on the bus transfer slip? mr. sims. no, sir; he was asked something about it--i don't remember what i asked or what he said. mr. stern. mr. sims, what was your impression of oswald during friday and saturday, what kind of man did he seem to you--what was his demeanor like, what impression did you get about him and the way he was conducting himself? mr. sims. well, he conducted himself, i believe, better than anyone i have ever seen during interrogation. he was calm and wasn't nervous. mr. stern. he knew what questions he wanted to answer and what questions he didn't? mr. sims. he had the answers ready when you got through with the questions. mr. stern. did he complain at any point about his treatment during the course of the day? mr. sims. no, sir; i asked him if he wanted a cigarette, and i asked him if he wanted a drink of water or to go to the rest room and things of that nature, and i don't believe he ever accepted any of them. mr. stern. but he was never complaining about his treatment? mr. sims. oh, he complained two or three times--i don't know what it was about--about not having a lawyer or something. he said he wanted a lawyer, and things of that nature. mr. stern. but not about his physical treatment? mr. sims. no; i believe he told us that--he was talking about his eye, and he told us that he deserved to get hit in the eye--i believe he said he deserved being hit in the eye. mr. stern. why was that? mr. sims. because the officer had a right to do that--i believe that's what he told us. mr. stern. what about obtaining a lawyer, what did he say about that? mr. sims. he said he wanted to obtain a lawyer. he named some lawyer up in new york. mr. stern. he said that to you or to captain fritz in your presence? mr. sims. well, i heard it--i don't know whether he said it to me--whether he told it to captain fritz or he may have told it to me. mr. stern. what was the response from the police officer in charge at any time he mentioned getting a lawyer? mr. sims. i don't know what it was. i believe he used the telephone. mr. stern. did he seem tired to you in the course of the interrogations? or showups? mr. sims. no, sir. mr. stern. by the time of your last contact with him, a little after that night, was he still in possession of his--have all his wits about him? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. stern. would you still describe him the way you did before? mr. sims. yes, sir; he was still alert--quick. mr. stern. calm? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. stern. could you describe the conditions in the corridor and other areas around captain fritz' office and the room in which the interrogations were taking place? during the day friday and saturday. mr. sims. well, of course, our office--captain fritz' office was crowded. mr. stern. with officials? mr. sims. official fbi, secret service, and government officials and city officials--texas rangers and state officials. mr. stern. was this making interrogation more difficult? mr. sims. well, i don't know if it would or not. a number was in captain fritz' office during the interrogation--i believe during all of the interrogations. mr. stern. were the interrogations conducted so that one person asked all the questions, or were several people asking questions during the course of the same interrogation? mr. sims. several people conducted the interrogation. of course, there wasn't two or three speaking at one time--one of them would speak to him and more or less ask him questions. mr. stern. how about the conditions outside the offices, in the corridor, as to people who were not officials? mr. sims. well, it was a problem getting through. it was crowded. mr. stern. because of the---- mr. sims. photographers and newsmen. mr. stern. were there television cameras in the corridor at that time? mr. sims. yes. mr. stern. do you know when they were brought in, were you present when they were installed? mr. sims. no; i don't know when they were installed. mr. stern. as i understand it, you had to bring oswald through part of this crowd of newspapermen to get him to the interrogation room, when you brought him to and from? mr. sims. no, sir; the interrogation room was all in room , but when we would have to go through the crowd would be to take him to a showup, and the next day when we would bring him from the jail to captain fritz' office, it would be a matter of or feet there in the hall. mr. stern. and in the course of those trips through the crowd, would people try to ask him questions? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. stern. and tried to get him to make statements on the microphone? mr. sims. yes; they would. mr. stern. would he respond--do you recall--ever? mr. sims. sometimes he would and sometimes he wouldn't. mr. stern. did this have any effect on him, did it seem to irritate him in any way, or did he also take this calmly? mr. sims. well, i didn't notice anything different. mr. stern. no noticeable difference? mr. sims. no, sir. mr. stern. would you describe his demeanor on saturday as being the same as it was on friday, was he still calm and in complete self-control? mr. sims. i was not around him a lot saturday, i don't believe, but he still was calm and alert and everything. mr. stern. how about his demeanor at the press conference friday night when he was taken down to the showup room to meet the press? mr. sims. well, he was--during the press interview--he was pretty snappy. he made some quick answers--i don't know what all it involved--he denied knowledge of the president's assassination, i believe, and he denied knowledge of killing officer tippit. mr. stern. and he was snappy and arrogant and hostile? mr. sims. yes; a form of arrogance, yes, sir. mr. stern. but was he harassed by this or was he still calm and in control? mr. sims. well, he had control of himself; yes, sir. mr. stern. so that his snappiness was, would you say, his way of expressing his feelings? mr. sims. well, i don't know--i don't know, but he was snappy at that time--at that press interview. mr. stern. that's all. thank you. that's all i have, mr. ball. i believe mr. ely has a question or two. mr. ely. there's one thing maybe you can help us clear up now. you took--i'm referring to late friday night or let's say early saturday morning. mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. ely. you took oswald up to the jail office on the fourth floor--about what time? mr. sims. i took him up to the jail office approximately : . mr. ely. and is that the last time you saw him before going home? mr. sims. yes; and we turned him over to the jailers up there on the fourth floor at : . mr. ely. and about what time did you leave to go home for the night? mr. sims. well, i believe--i'm not positive about this, but i believe that night boyd and i worked later than the other officers did. mr. ely. would you have any knowledge as to whether oswald was checked out of the jail again after : ? mr. sims. not to my knowledge. he was checked out later on in the day. mr. ely. right, but i'm speaking of now of sometime around : again--a quarter of or something like that--you wouldn't know anything about that? mr. sims. no, sir; i didn't know about that, but i checked him out later on that day. i don't know what time it was. i checked him out at : a.m.--i believe that's : a.m. is when i checked him out on the d. mr. ely. that's all i have, mr. ball. mr. ball. we have been attaching these as exhibits just for illustration, and do you mind if we mark it and make it part of your deposition? mr. sims. no, sir; that will be fine. mr. ball. all right. that will be exhibit a of this deposition. (instrument marked by the reporter as "sims exhibit a," for identification.) mr. ball. that is the written report you made to the police department of the events of the investigation on friday, november , and saturday, november ? mr. sims. yes, sir; and the day of oswald's murder on the th. mr. ball. that was the th? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. ball. this will be written up by the shorthand reporter and you can read it if you wish and make any changes you wish and sign it, or you can waive your signature and we will send it on to the commission as you have here testified as she has taken it down. do you have any preference on that? mr. sims. no, sir. mr. ball. do you want to waive your signature? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. ball. fine. that will be all right. thanks a lot. mr. sims. yes, sir. testimony of richard m. sims resumed the testimony of richard m. sims was taken at a.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. david w. belin, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. belin. will you stand and raise your right hand. do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. sims. i do. mr. belin. you are detective richard m. sims? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. belin. of the dallas police department? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. belin. detective sims, the day before yesterday you gave testimony in front of or before joseph a. ball? mr. sims. yes. mr. belin. at that time the matter came up concerning cartridge case hulls that were found on the southeast corner of the sixth floor of the texas school book depository building on november , . do you remember that he asked about those? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. belin. just for continuity of the record, would you tell us just how you came to see those hulls? mr. sims. yes, sir; captain fritz, boyd, and i, my partner, were on the seventh floor, and someone called us to the sixth floor and said the hulls had been found. so we took the freight elevator, i believe, or the stairs, and went to the sixth floor. went to the southeast corner and three hulls were laying there by the window on the floor. mr. belin. did you pick up the hulls at that time? mr. sims. no, sir. mr. belin. what did you do? mr. sims. waited for the arrival of lieutenant day with the crime lab to take pictures of the scene. mr. belin. do you know who came with lieutenant day, if you can remember? mr. sims. yes, sir. i believe it was studebaker. i am not positive about that. mr. belin. did you watch that area up until the time the pictures were taken? mr. sims. no, sir; i didn't stay there all the time. mr. belin. after the pictures were taken, what did you do? mr. sims. i was over there, i believe, when they finished up with the pictures, and i picked the three hulls up and laid them on what i believed to be a box of books there near the window, and lieutenant day dusted them for fingerprints. mr. belin. then when your testimony was taken, did you specifically remember what you did with those hulls? mr. sims. i didn't remember who brought the hulls to the city hall. mr. belin. since that time have you had an opportunity to refresh your recollection as to what happened to the hulls? mr. sims. yes, sir; i talked to captain fritz and e. l. boyd, my partner, and refreshed my memory. mr. belin. what was said, and what do you now say happened? mr. sims. captain fritz told me to get the hulls after lieutenant day finished with them and to take possession of them. mr. belin. what did you do? mr. sims. i did that. mr. belin. how did you take possession of them? mr. sims. i placed them in an envelope and put them in my coat pocket. mr. belin. do you remember which pocket? mr. sims. no, sir. mr. belin. then what did you do with them? mr. sims. when we got to the city hall, i gave them to captain fritz in his office. mr. belin. do you remember what time that was, possibly? mr. sims. no, sir; they took my notes the other day. i couldn't say. whenever we arrived back at the city hall, they have what time that was. mr. belin. do you remember what the occasion was of your going down to the city hall there? is that why you happened to go down to the city hall that afternoon? mr. sims. yes, sir; we were going to get started on oswald. mr. belin. were you on your way down there to investigate whether or not he had any record? mr. sims. i didn't know what he had at the time. i don't remember. i was driving, and captain, we stopped at the sheriff's office for a few minutes, and then went directly from there to the city hall. mr. belin. why were you going to get started on oswald? mr. sims. i don't know. captain fritz said go to the city hall. mr. belin. did he tell you that they were going to get started on oswald? mr. sims. no. he said go to the city hall. mr. belin. and that is what you did? mr. sims. yes. mr. belin. when you got to the city hall, did you go directly to captain fritz' office? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. belin. when you got there, was anyone inside? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. belin. who was there? mr. sims. his office was full of people. mr. belin. was lee oswald one of them? mr. sims. yes. mr. belin. in captain fritz' office? mr. sims. no. he was, i believe, now in the interrogation room. i am not positive. he wasn't in captain fritz' office. mr. belin. what did you do with that envelope when you got to captain fritz' office? mr. sims. i laid it on his desk and told him there was the hulls, or either gave it to him. mr. belin. you don't remember which one? mr. sims. no. mr. belin. now what caused you to remember now what you actually did with the hulls? i mean, what refreshed your recollection as to that? mr. sims. talked to captain fritz, and i remember we was going over to where the rifle, someone had found the rifle in the meantime, and we was walking over to where the rifle was found, and he told me to be sure and get the hulls. mr. belin. what did you do then? mr. sims. well, i went over to where the rifle was found, and went back later to where the hulls were. mr. belin. were the hulls still in the location you left them for being dusted for fingerprints? mr. sims. yes, sir; they were still taking pictures. mr. belin. were they still taking pictures, or dusting them? mr. sims. i hadn't picked them up. they were still, as far as i can remember, taking pictures, because captain fritz left two officers to preserve the scene. mr. belin. when you got back, what did you do after they got through with the pictures? mr. sims. when he got through with the scenery i picked the hulls up. mr. belin. was it then that he dusted them, or what? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. belin. now, did captain fritz tell you that this is what you did, or boyd tell you? mr. sims. no, i remembered the other day when i testified i wasn't too sure who brought them down, and then after i talked to captain fritz and boyd, i remembered definitely we were walking over to where the rifle was found, and he told me to be sure and get the hulls, so i did that. mr. belin. did captain fritz tell you, or the other, day, that you were the one that brought the hulls, or did you independently remember? mr. sims. i remembered putting them in my coat pocket. mr. belin. now, detective sims, just so that i can have a complete understanding of the process by which you refreshed your recollection, you talked to captain fritz about this after you testified here on monday? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. belin. what did he say and what did you say, if you remember? mr. sims. i told him i couldn't remember for sure about who brought the hulls up there to his office or what happened to the hulls, and then i talked to him. mr. belin. what did he say? mr. sims. he said, "well, remember i told you to get the hulls and bring them to the office." and i talked to boyd, my partner, and he said that captain fritz had said that, too, so i remembered exactly about where i was when he told me this. mr. belin. in other words, captain fritz told you on monday, that back on november , he had told you to get the hulls? is that what captain fritz told you on this past monday? mr. sims. no, not the past monday. now this was---- mr. belin. well, today is wednesday. could it have been on tuesday, or monday? mr. sims. i don't know if it was yesterday or monday. mr. belin. was it either late monday, april , or tuesday, april ? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. belin. that captain fritz told you that back on november , he had told you to get the hulls and bring them down? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. belin. and you also discussed this with detective boyd either on april or ? mr. sims. yes. mr. belin. you are nodding your head yes? mr. sims. yes. mr. belin. all right. now, after they told you this, what is the fact as to whether you then do or do not independently remember actually putting these shells in an envelope? mr. sims. i do, yes, sir; i remember putting them in an envelope. mr. belin. what is the fact as to whether or not you now independently remember putting that envelope in your pocket? mr. sims. i do, yes, sir. mr. belin. did captain fritz tell you that he saw you put them in your pocket? mr. sims. no; he didn't say anything about the envelope or pocket. i remember he told me to be sure and get the hulls. mr. belin. what about boyd, did he say anything about an envelope? or pocket? mr. sims. i don't believe he did, no, sir. mr. belin. do you remember what color envelope it was? mr. sims. i believe it was a brown, something brown envelope. mr. belin. you are pointing to a brown manilla envelope on top of the desk here? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. belin. do you remember how big an envelope it was? mr. sims. no, sir; i don't. we have two different sizes, and i don't remember what size. mr. belin. do you remember from whom you got the envelope? mr. sims. lieutenant day had it. when he goes to a scene, he has envelopes. mr. belin. did lieutenant day or anyone else see you put that envelope in your pocket? mr. sims. i don't know if he saw me put the envelope in my pocket, but he was there when i took possession of the hulls. mr. belin. he was? mr. sims. yes, sir; i am not sure, i don't know if the other crime lab officer was present or not. that would be studebaker, i believe. mr. belin. where were these hulls when you last saw them, or saw the envelope in which they were? mr. sims. in captain fritz' office, i believe. mr. belin. were they just laying on his desk, or in his physical possession? mr. sims. in this envelope. mr. belin. was the envelope on his desk? mr. sims. i don't remember if i actually gave them to him or put them there on the desk in front of him. mr. belin. but he was there when you left there? mr. sims. yes. mr. belin. and that is the last time you saw them? mr. sims. yes. mr. belin. do you remember whether or not you ever initialed the hulls? mr. sims. i don't know if i initialed the hulls or not. mr. belin. if you would have initialed the hulls, what initials would you have used? mr. sims. as a rule, rms. mr. belin. rms? mr. sims. yes, sir; but i believe i initialed the hulls or the envelope that i put them in. mr. belin. would you have initialed the outside or the inside of the hull? by that, do you understand what i mean? mr. sims. yes, sir; it all depends. i would initial the outside of the hulls, i imagine, or put a mark directly inside of the hull. mr. belin. either on the outside or directly inside the top part of the hull? mr. sims. no, sir; the end. mr. belin. on the end of the hull? mr. sims. yes, the spent end. mr. belin. the spent end? mr. sims. yes, sir. mr. belin. anything else you can think of that might be relevant? mr. sims. no, sir; but i do definitely remember him telling me about be sure and get the hulls. mr. belin. you definitely remember getting the hulls? mr. sims. yes, sir; sure do. mr. belin. have you and i ever talked before you walked through the door? mr. sims. no. mr. belin. as soon as you walked through the door, i had you raise your right hand and you started testifying, is that correct? mr. sims. yes. mr. belin. do you want to read this deposition, or are you going to sign the other deposition? mr. sims. no, sir; just go ahead. mr. belin. ship it on in? mr. sims. yes. mr. belin. all right, thank you, sir. testimony of richard s. stovall the testimony of richard s. stovall was taken at a.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. joseph a. ball, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. ball. would you please stand up, mr. stovall, and be sworn. do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before this commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. stovall. i do. mr. ball. will you please state your name for the record? mr. stovall. richard s. stovall. mr. ball. and what is your address, please? mr. stovall. grayson drive, dallas. mr. ball. and what is your occupation? mr. stovall. detective with the homicide bureau, city police department. mr. ball. how long have you been with the dallas police department? mr. stovall. approximately years--it will be years this may. mr. ball. now, the commission has asked us to ask every witness to tell us about where he was born and his education and what he has done, because they are unable to see you and they would like to know something about you. can you tell me that, please? mr. stovall. yes, i was born here in dallas in . i was born in a frame house over here on west page-- west page. i went to grade school at winnetka elementary school and i attended w. e. greiner junior high school over here on south edgefield. i went to high school at sunset high out on jefferson boulevard. after i left high school, i went to the navy for years, which was just after world war ii and i quit high school, by the way, and after i got out of the navy i came back to summer school tech and finished. after that, i went to work for the post office. after a few other jobs i had been with for just a short period of time--i went to work at the post office and i worked there for them for approximately years, i believe; i think it was from to , and in i quit the post office and went to the police department and i have been there since then. mr. ball. you are a detective, are you? mr. stovall. yes, sir. mr. ball. you work in plain clothes? mr. stovall. yes, sir. mr. ball. how long have you been in this particular department? mr. stovall. i have been in this department since approximately august , --about months, i guess. mr. ball. what do you call your department of the detective bureau? mr. stovall. it's homicide-robbery bureau. mr. ball. do you work under captain fritz? mr. stovall. yes, sir. mr. ball. on november , , had you been assigned a special duty, in view of the president's visit to dallas? mr. stovall. yes, sir; i had--after i got to work. mr. ball. at what time was that? mr. stovall. it was around o'clock--i was watching television that morning and heard the deal on television. mr. ball. you were not on duty at the time the president was shot? mr. stovall. no, sir. mr. ball. you went to work at o'clock? mr. stovall. well, i was scheduled to go to work at that day, i believe, but as soon as i heard that i got cleaned up and got ready for work and went on in. mr. ball. were you given an assignment as soon as you got down there? mr. stovall. no, sir; i wasn't--as soon as i got there. i got there and one of my partners, g. f. rose, got there about the same time. we were talking to a witness that had seen all the people standing out there--he didn't actually see anything, so we didn't even take an affidavit from him because he didn't see anything. while talking to him, the officers brought lee harvey oswald into the homicide bureau and put him into an interrogation room we have there at the bureau. after we finished talking to this witness, we went back there and talked to him briefly. mr. ball. do you remember what was said to him and what he said to you? mr. stovall. i don't recall exactly--i went in and asked him for his identification, asked him who he was and he said his name was lee oswald, as well as i remember. rose and i were both in there at the time. he had his billfold and in it he had the identification of "a. hidell," which was on a selective service card, as well as i remember. mr. ball. that's [spelling] h-i-d-e-l-l, isn't it? mr. stovall. i'm not positive on that--i believe it was [spelling] h-i-d-e-l-l, i'm not sure. and he also had identification of lee harvey oswald, and i believe that was on a social security card and at that time captain fritz opened the door to the office there and sent rose and i to go out to this address in irving at west fifth street in irving. that was--i don't know where the captain got the address, but it was an address where he was supposed to be staying part of the time. mr. ball. the captain had you get another man to go with you? mr. stovall. yes; we got j. p. adamcik to go with us. mr. ball. is he a detective? mr. stovall. yes; he is. mr. ball. and you did that, did you, you drove out there to irving? mr. stovall. yes, sir. mr. ball. the three of you? mr. stovall. yes; the three of us--we went out to the location and parked, oh, a block or half block from the house. we were supposed to meet some county officers out there. mr. ball. why were you to meet the county officers out there? mr. stovall. well, irving is out of our jurisdiction, actually, we had to either have the irving police or the county officers with us. mr. ball. would that be within the jurisdiction of the sheriff's office? mr. stovall. yes, sir. mr. ball. and did you meet some county officers there? mr. stovall. yes, sir; they arrived about to minutes after we did--after we got out there; yes. mr. ball. did you wait for them? mr. stovall. yes, sir. mr. ball. where did you wait for them? mr. stovall. this was about one-half a block or a block from the house address. mr. ball. had you arranged to meet the county officers at this spot? mr. stovall. yes, yes, no, sir; we hadn't. we told them we were down the street about half a block. of course when they came out there they could see us parked in the car down the street. mr. ball. and what county officers did you meet out there? mr. stovall. well, there was harry weatherford and the other two--one name was oxford, and i don't recall the other one's name. mr. ball. how about walthers--does buddy walthers sound like it? mr. stovall. yes, sir. mr. ball. he was the third one. mr. stovall. yes, sir. mr. ball. and then after you met them, what did you do? mr. stovall. we went on down to them and drove up in front of the house and parked and got out and walked up to the front door and adamcik and two of the officers went to the back and rose and i went, and the other officers went to the front door and we knocked on the door, we could see some people inside the house and we could see through the front door, the door was open and the television was playing and ruth paine came to the door and identified herself to us. she said, "yes; you are here about this mess that's on television." mr. ball. what did you tell her about that? mr. stovall. at that time we told her that we wanted to search the house. we explained to her that we did not have a search warrant but if she wanted us to get one we would, and she said, "that won't be necessary"--for us to come right on in, so we went on in the house and started to search out the house, and the part of the house that i searched was the front bedroom where marina oswald was staying. there are quite a few items on the list of property i have--i believe you have a copy of it. there are two that were taken out of that bedroom there--a bunch of camera equipment, for one thing. mr. ball. now, i want to go backward at the moment--have you identified that property from your list, and can you tell me what was the division of labor there between you officers when you were permitted to search the house, you went into the bedroom; who went with you? mr. stovall. i don't believe there was anybody went with me at the time i went in. i heard--i think rose started to the back bedroom, which would be ruth paine's bedroom and ruth paine was standing there talking to him--i could hear her talking to him and she told him that marina suggested that he look out into the garage and so they looked and they were out of my sight then. mr. ball. you heard ruth say to rose that marina had suggested he look in the garage? mr. stovall. yes. mr. ball. did you hear ruth paine tell him why mariana had made that suggestion--what her reasons for it were? mr. stovall. no, sir; i didn't. mr. ball. so, you think that rose went to the garage? mr. stovall. yes, sir. mr. ball. what did adamcik do? mr. stovall. well, adamcik was out in the back. now, before i went into the bedroom, i went to the back door and opened it and adamcik and the two county officers came inside, but where adamcik went, i couldn't tell you for sure. i know that he looked through some of the stuff in what i would call the den, which is adjoining the kitchen there. mr. ball. off the record. (discussion between counsel ball and the witness stovall off the record.) mr. ball. getting back on the record. mr. stovall. shortly after that, rose came back in carrying this blanket, as well as i remember, it was tied at one end and the other end was open. mr. ball. it was tied with what kind of material? mr. stovall. it was tied with a white cord, as well as i remember. mr. ball. a white what? mr. stovall. a white twine--it was thicker than a kite twine that you see or use on kites--more like this they use for wrapping large packages and tying them and he showed me that end, of course, he told me---- mr. ball. what did he tell you? mr. stovall. he told me that when he went to the garage, marina had pointed to the blanket there and she said something to ruth paine and ruth paine told him that that was where lee kept his rifle. mr. ball. and the search that you made was in marina's bedroom? mr. stovall. yes, sir. mr. ball. now, do you have a list of the articles that were taken from marina's bedroom? mr. stovall. yes, i do. i've got a list of all the articles we took from the house. mr. ball. give me that list first. mr. stovall. [witness handed list to counsel ball.] mr. ball. this list was made up by you men on the site or after you got back into the squad car? mr. stovall. no, this list was made the next day after we came back to work. this stuff was all put in boxes and put in the trunk of the car and put back in one of our interrogation rooms there. mr. ball. and the next day you made a list of it, did you? mr. stovall. yes, rose and i and there were two fbi agents that went over the property at the same time. we initialed the property, that is, we went over it--this list here. mr. ball. this list here? mr. stovall. yes, this list here is a list of the property taken. mr. ball. a list of the property taken from ruth paine's home at west fifth street, irving, tex.? mr. stovall. that was on the d. mr. ball. on the d at about : p.m.? mr. stovall. : or --somewhere in there. mr. ball. i'll go into that later, and this was the list that was made up by you and rose and two fbi agents the next day at the police department? mr. stovall. yes. mr. ball. i'd like to have this marked as "stovall exhibit a," and it consists of page and page for the deposition. (instrument referred to marked as "stovall exhibit no. a," for identification.) mr. stovall. as well as i remember, detective senkel, s-e-n-k-e-l [spelling] and detective potts were both there too. mr. ball. now, look at exhibits a- and a- for the purpose of refreshing your memory, will you mark on that those items which you have found in marina's bedroom--do you think you remember those? mr. stovall. [marked instruments referred to.] mr. ball. all right, after you check them, we will go over them and you can make an explanation for the record. mr. stovall. all right, fine. mr. ball. now, since we have gone back on the record--exhibit a- and a- have been marked--have you marked those things which were taken from marina's room? mr. stovall. yes, sir. mr. ball. you have an explanation to make as to certain of those, haven't you? mr. stovall. yes, sir. mr. ball. what is that? mr. stovall. on this list here--where it has kodachrome transparent slides, you have it coded at the top, i have one brown pasteboard box filled with camera film slides. one of those, i believe, came out of the back room, which would be ruth paine's bedroom, and the other came out of the chest of drawers in marina oswald's bedroom, but i'm not sure which came from which place. mr. ball. do you know where the other articles that were on that list that have not been checked, were found? mr. stovall. some of them i do, and some of them i'm not positive on. mr. ball. did you find them, or did some other officer find those other items--those other articles? mr. stovall. well, it's hard to say. i don't remember for sure where these came from. i know that i went through the front bedroom there and when we started--i went to the back bedroom and looked at some of the stuff in there and rose was also in there and adamcik came in there too. mr. ball. give us, from your memory, then, the other articles that are not checked there? take a look at them, and then tell us, if you can, from your memory, just where you found those articles. mr. stovall. there was one box of kodaslides in the single name of ruth hyde, another yellow box of kodaslides, single--i'm not sure where they came from. i believe they came out of ruth paine's bedroom. i have listed one book from sears tower slide projector. mr. ball. you don't make a check on it if you didn't find it in marina's bedroom. mr. stovall. no, sir; i missed one up there when we checked them. mr. ball. all right, very well. mr. stovall. that one, i'm not sure which bedroom it came from--i know it came from one of the bedrooms, but i don't know which one. i've got listed "one grey metal file box, which is inches by inches; youth pictures and literature." i've got, "one black and gray metal box inches by inches, letters, etc., one box brown keystone projector." let's stop just a minute and let me tell you about this. these two metal boxes came out of ruth paine's bedroom. this keystone projector came out of the closet in the hall. then, i have listed, "three brown metal boxes inches by inches containing phonograph records." they came out of ruth paine's bedroom. i've got listed, "one blue check telephone index book (addresses)"--i'm not sure which bedroom that came from. and, i've got listed "one bracket (instruction for mounting)" and i believe that came out of marina's bedroom--i'm not sure. the next is not checked and i'm not sure, but it is " kodachrome transparency slides," which i explained a while ago. the next one i don't have checked is "one envelope with women's book entitled 'simplicity'". i'm not sure which bedroom that came out of. then i've got "one russian book." we took several books from marina's bedroom and i don't recall taking any books from ruth paine's bedroom, but i don't remember the particular ones--it's very possible i did, i can't be sure, but that's the last one i don't have checked. mr. ball. did you search any other part of the house besides marina's bedroom? mr. stovall. i assisted in searching the back bedroom. i searched the hall closet and i also looked at several things in the living room and the kitchen and the den. mr. ball. did you search the garage? mr. stovall. no, sir; not that day, i did the next day. mr. ball. rose searched the garage that day? mr. stovall. yes, sir; he was out in the garage. we were going over the stuff pretty hastily at that time--that day. mr. ball. how long were you there that day--how long were you there? mr. stovall. i would say for approximately to - / hours, if that long. mr. ball. now, when you first went in, did ruth paine say anything to you about expecting you, or something of that sort? mr. stovall. yes, sir; when we first came to the door and knocked on the door, she came to the door and she says, and we identified ourselves, she said "i have been expecting you. you are here about this mess that's on television," and the "mess that's on television" at the time she was talking about was when they were talking about the president's murder. mr. ball. and oswald had been apprehended at that time? mr. stovall. yes, he had, but he had been apprehended before we got there. mr. ball. before you got there oswald had been arrested and brought into the office? mr. stovall. they had brought him into the office after i was there. mr. ball. later on, did her husband come in there--come in the house? mr. stovall. yes, i guess we had been there approximately minutes when michael paine came out and said he had taken off from work and he said he heard about the president's murder on television and he thought he would come right on out and see if he could be of any help. mr. ball. did he say whether or not he had heard about it on radio or television? mr. stovall. no, sir; i don't recall him saying where he said he heard about it--i don't recall him saying that. mr. ball. did you ask him any questions at that time? mr. stovall. no, sir; i can't recall asking him anything at that time. however, i did talk to him but i don't remember what the conversation was. mr. ball. did a mrs. randle come in the house also? mr. stovall. no, sir; she didn't. while we were loading this stuff into our car and into the sheriff's deputy's car, we were on the outside, and you know, going in and out, and she had stopped adamcik and was talking to him and he came over and talked to me and went on back and talked to her and she said that her brother had taken oswald to work that morning and she said that she had seen him put some kind of a package in the back seat of her brother's car. she told us it could have been a rifle--is what she said. she said it was either in a brown paper box or wrapped in brown paper. mr. ball. what time did you leave there that day? mr. stovall. it must have been around : , because it was--i believe it was when we got back to the office. mr. ball. did you bring somebody back with you? mr. stovall. yes, we brought michael paine--he rode with the sheriff's deputies and we brought ruth paine and marina oswald and marina's two children. mr. ball. and did you take them into the offices of the police? mr. stovall. yes, we did. we took them into the homicide and robbery bureau. mr. ball. did you talk to them after that? mr. stovall. no, sir; not that day--i didn't. we took them from there into the forgery bureau because there was so many people in our office up there. mr. ball. into which bureau? mr. stovall. into the forgery bureau--we took them from the homicide bureau into the forgery bureau because they had room in there where we could leave them. mr. ball. what did you do the rest of that day? mr. stovall. after that we went--we called on the phone--rose did--trying to find this wesley frazier, who was this mrs. randle's brother to talk to him about this package that his sister said oswald had put in his car that morning. rose checked around and finally located him at a clinic in irving. he called and found out where wesley frazier was--he called the irving police department and talked to detective mccabe out there and told him what the situation was and mccabe told us to call him back later and he would see if he couldn't get ahold of him out there and so we called him back in or minutes, i guess, and he said that he had the boy at the police department out there. mr. ball. you went out there and talked to him? mr. stovall. yes, sir. mr. ball. and you also searched their home, didn't you? mr. stovall. yes, we did. mr. ball. and then you brought linnie randle and wesley frazier into dallas and took statements from them? mr. stovall. yes, sir; we didn't take the affidavits from them, but i don't recall who did, but after the affidavits were taken, we started back to irving with them, they also had a minister from their church with them, i believe. we started back to irving and we got about halfway, i guess, and they called us on the radio to return to the station with the witnesses and we came back and rose called the captain from the basement phone down there and he said he wanted to take wesley frazier up and run him on the polygraph, and he agreed to this and so we took him up there, and we didn't have a man on the polygraph at that time. i think he left around o'clock and so we called him on the phone and he came back down and got there around : or : . mr. ball. and it was about : when you ran the polygraph on frazier, wasn't it? mr. stovall. no, sir; it was about : when we finished, i think, when he finished running it. mr. ball. about : when you finished the polygraph on frazier? mr. stovall. yes, sir. mr. ball. then, what did you do? mr. stovall. then, we went back down to the basement. we had left frazier's sister and the minister down in the basement, as well as i remember. and we took him back down there and then we went on back out to irving and left them. mr. ball. when you took the polygraph, you were present during the polygraph examination of frazier, were you? mr. stovall. yes, sir. mr. ball. and during this examination, did you have before you the affidavit which frazier had made? mr. stovall. no, sir; i didn't. mr. ball. you didn't at that time? mr. stovall. no, sir. mr. ball. who did the questioning? mr. stovall. r. d. lewis, he's the polygraph operator. i might explain that to you--in our polygraph room we've got a two-way mirror there and in another room behind it, so that the officer that is investigating the case, if he wants to, can watch the examination being given, and you can hear the questions and the answers. mr. ball. did you go home, then, after that? mr. stovall. yes, sir; after we took them back to irving we went home. mr. ball. the next day, you made another search of the paine home, didn't you? mr. stovall. yes, we did. mr. ball. about what time? mr. stovall. must have been around o'clock, just past noon, : p.m. mr. ball. and did you obtain a search warrant first this day? mr. stovall. yes, we did. mr. ball. from what judge? mr. stovall. from j. b. brown, jr. mr. ball. who went out on the search party? mr. stovall. detectives moore, rose, adamcik and myself. we went by the irving police department and picked up detective mccabe and he went with us. mr. ball. moore is also a detective attached to the dallas police department? mr. stovall. yes, homicide bureau. mr. ball. and that day you arrived at the paine home about what time? mr. stovall. i would judge roughly around : or o'clock. mr. ball. and did you knock on the door? mr. stovall. yes, we did, and ruth paine, i believe was the only one there at the time. mr. ball. and what did you say and what did she say to you? mr. stovall. we told her that we returned, we wanted to, to make a further search of the house and we showed her the search warrant at the time, and i believe she said we didn't need that, to come on in and that we could search the house anytime we wanted to. mr. ball. and did you search the house? mr. stovall. yes, we did. we mainly concentrated our search of the garage this time, because the first search of the garage had been a rather quick one, and not having been in the garage on the first search at all, and i know rose hadn't spent much time out there because he didn't have time to on the length of time we spent at the house. so, we searched the garage and concentrated our search there. ruth paine came out into the garage and i told you ruth paine was the only one there awhile ago--i remember michael paine was in the garage. i think he came up after we got there--i'm not sure--it's possible that he got there after we got there, but i don't recall, but both of them came out in this garage and showed us the stuff that belonged to lee oswald and marina oswald and showed us the stuff that belonged to them and they left. mr. ball. do you mean they left you in the garage? mr. stovall. yes, they got in the car and drove off. they left their house. mr. ball. you have made a report of what you did that day? mr. stovall. yes, sir. mr. ball. and you have that before you, mr. stovall? mr. stovall. yes, sir. mr. ball. have you refreshed your memory from the report? mr. stovall. i glanced over this--i've read this first and i haven't read this one. mr. ball. do you want to take some time to look over that report of your search on the d of november ? mr. stovall. yes, sir. mr. ball. you stayed in the garage how long? mr. stovall. it seems like we were in that garage about - / or hours. we might have been there longer than that. we made a thorough search of the garage. mr. ball. was there some reason you went out there the second time? mr. stovall. to the garage? mr. ball. no, to the paine home on the irving street address? mr. stovall. yes, sir; the main reason we went out there--we wanted to make a more thorough search of the place. the first search that--we didn't actually have time to stay as long as we needed to, to check the whole house. mr. ball. were you given any specific instructions by anyone from your department as to what to look for? mr. stovall. no, sir; not that i recall. mr. ball. now, did you make a list of what you had found and took with you on that day? mr. stovall. yes, we did. mr. ball. is this the list? mr. stovall. yes, it is. mr. ball. and where was that made? mr. stovall. that was made down at the city hall in the homicide bureau. mr. ball. i would like to mark this as "stovall exhibit b." (instrument referred to marked as "stovall exhibit b," for identification.) mr. ball. now, at that time did you find any snapshots that appeared to be oswald in the photograph? mr. stovall. yes, sir; rose did, and when he looked at them, he said, "look at this." at the time he said that--he showed us the snapshots and the negatives to me. mr. ball. did they show you what appeared to be oswald in the snapshots? mr. stovall. yes. mr. ball. he had the negatives and snapshots? mr. stovall. yes. mr. ball. and he showed oswald--what was significant about the photograph? mr. stovall. he was in a standing position just outside of the house holding a rifle in one hand and he was wearing a pistol in a holster on his right hip and he was holding two papers in the other hand. mr. ball. did you take the snapshots? mr. stovall. yes, we took the snapshots. mr. ball. and the negatives? mr. stovall. yes. mr. ball. where are they listed on this exhibit--this exhibit b? mr. stovall. i believe we listed them where we've got "miscellaneous photographs and maps." there were several other photographs that we took when we were there. mr. ball. they were in the garage, were they? mr. stovall. yes, sir. mr. ball. and where were they in the garage that you saw? mr. stovall. as well as i remember, they were in a brown cardboard box about, i guess, feet by a foot and a half or something like that. mr. ball. what was in the box with them? mr. stovall. there were, as well as i remember, a few books in there and letters and papers and photographs. mr. ball. now, you also found some bags, didn't you? mr. stovall. yes, sir; there were some seabags. mr. ball. what color? mr. stovall. one of them was--i think both of them were a kind of an army color--olive drab, whatever you call it. mr. ball. and suitcases? mr. stovall. yes, sir; there were some blue suitcases and i think a brown one. mr. ball. made out of what kind of material? mr. stovall. it appeared to be a leather material. mr. ball. you said there were three--you've mentioned blue and brown, is there any other color? mr. stovall. there was, as well as i remember--one of the brown ones was a leather appearing suitcase and the other was more of a--some kind of a paper or cardboard suitcase, as well as i remember that thing. it was partially torn, i mean, it had been well used and was coming apart. mr. ball. and were there three? mr. stovall. yes, sir. mr. ball. and what was the color of the third one? mr. stovall. i believe it was brown also. mr. ball. leather or paper or cardboard? mr. stovall. no; this was paper--it was some kind of a paper deal or cardboard. mr. ball. now, you also found a magazine advertisement from klein's department store, klein's in chicago? mr. stovall. yes, sir; that was in the same box with the photographs. mr. ball. just for illustration of your testimony, i would like to have marked as an exhibit to the deposition your report of the search of november , , as your exhibit no. c, and your report of the search of november , , of the paine residence as exhibit no. d. (instruments referred to marked by the reporter as "stovall exhibits c and d," for identification.) mr. ball. you mention in there a map--what kind of map or maps did you find there? mr. stovall. i don't recall just what kind of maps they were. mr. ball. what time did you leave there that day? mr. stovall. must have been around : or , i believe. mr. ball. did mrs. paine or mr. paine say anything more to you than you have already told us? mr. stovall. no, sir; as well as i recall, mr. and mrs. paine were both gone from the house when we left there. mr. ball. you took these materials with you that you have on this list? mr. stovall. yes. mr. ball. you took them down to where? mr. stovall. we took them down to our office. mr. ball. and you made a list of them that day, did you? mr. stovall. yes, sir. mr. ball. now, did you do anything else on this investigation? mr. stovall. no, sir; that's all i can recall that i did on the investigation. i might add, there was--well, you have that on the list--some property. mr. ball. what is that? mr. stovall. when we took this identification off of lee oswald that had this selective service card, the name hidell, and he also had his own identification--at the time we were in the garage we found some negatives out there that appeared that he had make a snapshot of a selective service card, and on the back of the negatives it was where the name would have been typed in--there was some stuff on the back of the negatives to block out the name when it was reprinted, and there were some selective service cards that he had printed himself out there from a negative that were blank and which appeared to be the same that he had on him at the time, on the d of november, that had the name of "a. hidell" typed in on it. mr. ball. did you appear at any showups of oswald? mr. stovall. no, sir. mr. ball. were you at any of the interrogations of oswald? mr. stovall. no, sir. mr. ball. well, i think that's all, mr. stovall. thank you very much for coming over here. mr. stovall. okay, thank you. mr. davis. thank you so much, mr. stovall, we appreciate your coming by. mr. stovall. i hope it was of some help to you. testimony of walter eugene potts the testimony of walter eugene potts was taken at : a.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. joseph a. ball, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. ball. will you hold up your right hand and be sworn, please? mr. potts. yes, sir. mr. ball. do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before the commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. potts. i do. mr. ball. will you state your name, please? mr. potts. walter eugene potts. mr. ball. what business or occupation are you in? mr. potts. i am a detective with the police department, homicide, dallas. mr. ball. how long have you been with the police department in dallas? mr. potts. since october , . mr. ball. and how long have you been with the homicide department? mr. potts. june , . mr. ball. can you tell me something about where you were born and where you were educated and what you have done since then? mr. potts. i was born at sherman, tex., april , , and i came to dallas in and was raised here in dallas, attended public schools in dallas, graduated from this dallas--it's crozier tech now, but it was dallas technical high school right here on bryan street in , and when i graduated i went to work for southwest airmotive at love field, and i worked for taycee badgett aviation in and , in shreveport, la., and i took an aviation cadet mental and physical down there and came back to dallas to be inducted into the service, and i worked for lockheed at love field before i went in the service, and i went in the service in july . i was discharged in january . i was in the th military police battalion in vienna, austria, and also the th there. i came back and went to work for the taylor publishing co. just before i went to work for the police department. my mother and father, they still live here out on brookfield and my sister lives here. i am one of the very few native boys in this police department down here--that's raised right here. mr. ball. and on november , , you had the day off, didn't you? mr. potts. yes, sir; that was my day off. mr. ball. and did you hear on the radio the president had been shot? mr. potts. well, my wife and i had gone to the cleaners up there at jim miller and military, and i suppose it was around : or a quarter to --around o'clock and we pulled up in front of the cleaners there and mr. wright at the barbershop came out to the car and he said, "have you heard about the president getting shot?" you know, i thought he was joking and i thought he was kidding and i turned on my car radio and there it was. we went on back home and i called the office immediately and talked to detective baker, he's a lieutenant now, and he said he was calling all the men back and i started to get dressed--get ready, and i told him i would be there as soon as i could, and i got dressed and got there within the hour, which was around or before. mr. ball. what did you do when you first got there? mr. potts. when i was walking across the street there, i parked my car over at the scottish rite parking lot there and it's the masonic lot and when i come across the street there at commerce and harwood this officer on the corner there said, "did you hear about tippit getting killed?" i said, "no; i didn't hear about that." he said, "yes; i understand he got killed on a disturbance call over in oak cliff." that's the first i had heard about tippit and when i got to the office, i walked in and baker told me, "we have some people here from the texas school book depository--there are four or five of them back there," and he said, "would you go back there and take some affidavits from them?" and i said, "sure," and i went back there and took one from this arce, and i was in the process of taking one from this jack dougherty when i heard some officers coming in the door there, and i heard one of them say, "we've got the man that killed tippit." so, they brought him on back in while we were sitting back in the squadroom and i was sitting back there with dougherty and arce, and they came by and put him in the side interrogation room back there. as you walk in the door, there is an interrogation room right straight ahead and then you turn right to go back in the squadroom and you go on back in the squadroom, and this mr. dougherty looked at me and he said, "i know that man." he said, "he works down there in that building--the texas school book depository building." he said, "i don't know his name, but i know him." so did arce--he said, "yes, he works down there." so, i went ahead and took those affidavits from them--from those people and we got them notarized. mr. ball. you mean arce and dougherty? mr. potts. arce and dougherty. there were some more officers back there taking affidavits from some of the others--some of those other people--i don't know--you know, time and all the confusion around there, you don't exactly know what time, but my partner, bill senkel, and f. m. turner--we work a three-man squad, and bill came around and he talked to captain fritz, and he said "come on, let's go. we are going out to north beckley." he came around and told me, he said--he asked me if i had finished taking the affidavits, and i told him, "yes," and he said, "captain fritz wants you and i to go out to oswald's or hidell's or oswald's room." on his person--he must have had--he did have identification with the name alex hidell and oswald--lee harvey oswald, but lt. e. l. cunningham of the forgery bureau, who used to be a member of the homicide and robbery bureau before he made lieutenant, he went with us and we went out there. mr. ball. before you went out there, did you get a search warrant? mr. potts. no; we didn't--we didn't get a search warrant at that time. we went to the location and talked to the people there. mr. ball. that's lt. e. l. cunningham? mr. potts. yes, sir. mr. ball. and who else? mr. potts. b. l. senkel. mr. ball. and yourself? mr. potts. and myself. mr. ball. and you went out to where? mr. potts. north beckley. mr. ball. what happened when you got there? mr. potts. we got there and we talked to this mrs.--i believe her name was johnson. mr. ball. mrs. a. c. johnson? mr. potts. mrs. johnson and mrs. roberts. mr. ball. earlene roberts? mr. potts. yes; and they didn't know a lee harvey oswald or an alex hidell either one and they couldn't--they just didn't have any idea who we were talking about, so the television--it is a rooming house, and there was a television---- mr. ball. did you check their registration books? mr. potts. yes, sir; we looked at the registration book--senkel, i think, or cunningham--well, we all looked through the registration book and there wasn't anyone by that name, and the television was on in the living room. there's an area there where the roomers sit, i guess it's the living quarters--it flashed oswald's picture on there and one of the women, either mrs. roberts or mrs. johnson said, "that's the man that lives here. that's mr. lee--o. h. lee." she said, "his room is right here right off of the living room." senkel or cunningham, one of them, called the office and they said that turner was en route with a search warrant and we waited there until : or that afternoon. we got out there about . mr. ball. you waited there in the home? mr. potts. we waited there in the living quarters. mr. ball. you did not go into the small room that had been rented by lee? mr. potts. no; we didn't--we didn't search the room at all until we got the warrant. mr. ball. who brought the warrant out? mr. potts. judge david johnston. mr. ball. the judge issued it, but who brought it out? mr. potts. well, f. m. turner and h. m. moore was with him, and judge david johnston was there, and also assistant district attorney bill alexander. mr. ball. did david l. johnston go too, the justice of the peace? mr. potts. yes, the judge was there in person. mr. ball. he was? mr. potts. yes; and also assistant district attorney bill alexander--they all came in the same car. mr. ball. what did you do then? mr. potts. well, after we showed johnson the search warrant, i think it was johnson, we went on in the room and continued to search the room, and we took everything in there that we could find. mr. ball. would you describe the room, the appearance of the room? mr. potts. well, the room was off--as you walk into the house, the living area, the room was right there at the front door, and it was off to the left of the living room. it was a real small room. it was, oh, i don't suppose it was to feet wide, and maybe feet long. it was a real small room. it had a half bed in there and back in the back there it had a shelf--some shelves and stuff that he had some food and stuff back there in. mr. ball. how was it furnished? mr. potts. well, it just had the bed in there, and i believe, if remember, it might have had a chair--i'm not sure. so, moore, senkel, cunningham and all of us--we searched that room--we took everything in there all but--there was some food on the shelf we didn't take and we went through the trash can and there was some banana peelings and stuff, but everything in there--we took everything in there we could find. we even took the pillow cases off of one of the pillows and put stuff in it. he had one of those little zipper-type bags and he had a lot of stuff in it. mr. ball. what color was the bag? mr. potts. i don't recall the color of that bag. mr. ball. did you bring it with you--you picked it up too, and brought it in, too? mr. potts. yes, sir; we brought everything out of the room we could find. mr. ball. were there curtains on the windows? mr. potts. yes, sir; i think so. mr. ball. hanging on rods? mr. potts. if i remember correctly, i think there was curtains on the walls, but we looked behind the curtains and everything--and looked behind the blinds and everything. mr. ball. now, did you see anything of a leather holster? mr. potts. a . leather holster--i have a list there of all the stuff we brought out of there. mr. ball. could i see that, please? mr. potts. yes, sir; you sure can. this is a list mr. turner and mr. moore and myself compiled after we brought it into the office. mr. ball. you brought the stuff into the office? mr. potts. yes, sir. mr. ball. we'll mark this as "potts exhibit a." (instrument referred to marked by the reporter as "potts exhibit a," for identification.) mr. potts. you can have that if you would like. mr. ball. this will be two exhibits--a- and a- . (the instruments referred to marked by the reporter as "potts exhibits a-l and a- ," for identification.) mr. ball. did you ask mrs. johnson whether or not she had ever seen the holster before? mr. potts. i don't recall asking her that. mr. ball. did you ever ask mrs. earlene roberts if she had seen the holster before? mr. potts. i don't recall talking to her about that. they weren't too familiar with what was in that room. i didn't talk to them too much about it. mr. ball. you recovered a dallas city map, too, didn't you? mr. potts. yes, sir; that had some markings on it in pencil. mr. ball. all right, go ahead. mr. potts. there was a red notebook there that had a lot of names in it and addresses in it and a lot of russian writing--and it had a diagram of the red square in there, i suppose, that's what it looked like to me. i suppose that's what it was, but, of course, it was all written in russian and about half of that book i didn't understand. mr. ball. you brought all of this property to the city hall? mr. potts. yes; we did. mr. ball. and you made the inventory we have had marked here as "exhibits a- and a- "? mr. potts. yes; mr. moore and turner and i compiled it. mr. ball. now, on that same day, did you do anything more? mr. potts. let me say--later on in the afternoon--we worked the rest of that night, up until--i don't recall what time i did leave there--it was pretty late. mr. ball. i have here a document which has been marked as "commission exhibit no. ." did you find this document at the north beckley address that day, do you remember? mr. potts. i recall seeing this; yes, i do. i don't know which one of the officers picked it up. mr. ball. do you remember where it was? mr. potts. no; i don't. mr. ball. do--you don't know where it was kept? mr. potts. no, sir. mr. ball. but was it brought from the room? mr. potts. yes; it was--here's my initial in the right hand corner, and here is mr. moore's. mr. ball. what does that initial mean? mr. potts. that's my initial, "w. e. p." mr. ball. and there is " - - "--what does that mean? mr. potts. that means--we initial all of the evidence we bring out of there. at the time--this was going to court, and if this was brought out in court that would be my initials right there--i recovered this. mr. ball. did you initial it right there in the room? mr. potts. we initialed it after we brought it to the station. mr. ball. these are the initials of the men who were there with you? mr. potts. that's h. m. moore and i guess it's f. m. turner--"f. m. t."--that's my partner. yes, sir; for the purpose of identification in court, we initialed everything we could possibly write on. mr. ball. now, did you, on the d of november, take part in the investigation of either the death of oswald or the shooting of the president? mr. potts. well, i reported to work at o'clock in the morning and we worked until midnight that night--it was mostly telephone conversations--they had to put extra phones in our office. we were swamped--i talked to people from england, canada, peru--all over was just calling in there--just a continual call--call--call--and it kept most of us real busy answering telephone calls that day. mr. ball. did you take part in any showup of oswald? mr. potts. i believe i did--was that the d--at : that afternoon on the d, i was in on one. mr. ball. who was with you? mr. potts. mr. senkel and i went to the jail and stood by the jail elevator and waited until the showup came down, and i was thinking there was m. g. hall and charlie brown and a jailer or two that brought that showup down. they were all handcuffed together, as i recall. mr. ball. who is m. g. hall? mr. potts. he is a detective in our bureau. mr. ball. and who is charlie brown? mr. potts. charlie brown is also an officer assigned to the bureau. now, i might be wrong about that, but it seems to me like they were the two that showed up then, but they might not have been. mr. ball. now, did you have anything to do with the selection of the men who were to be in the showup? mr. potts. no, sir; all i did was just to go down to the jail door and walk with the showup out to the stage, and i stood out on the stage while the showup was conducted. mr. ball. how was it conducted? describe it. mr. potts. well, there is an anteroom before you get to the showup stage. now, the witnesses were out front behind this transparent black nylon screen. there's a light set at an angle on the stage where the person on the stage can't see the people out in the audience. they brought them out handcuffed together and this john thurman horne went in first--no, that's wrong--lujan went on first, because he would be no. . you see, they're got numbers above the--above them higher up there. mr. ball. what is his full name? mr. potts. daniel lujan, and then oswald was no. , knapp no. . mr. ball. what is knapp's full name? mr. potts. david knapp and john thurman horne was no. . mr. ball. and what happened then, after they went out on the stage? mr. potts. well, detective leavelle--now, i don't know who the witness was that they were showing them to--the showup to. mr. ball. did you hear leavelle? mr. potts. i heard leavelle question each one of the men. there is a black square on the floor and he tells each one of them to take one step forward and they have a microphone above, and i don't recall exactly what he asked them--it was just to get them to talk and identify themselves. we conduct them different--sometimes we ask them their names and their address and their occupation. mr. ball. did you ask the questions? mr. potts. no, sir. mr. ball. did leavelle ask the questions? mr. potts. yes; he was up there. mr. ball. and, did he direct his questions to the men on the stage? mr. potts. yes; to the men on the stage. mr. ball. did you hear them? mr. potts. yes; i heard them answer. mr. ball. did oswald speak up or not? mr. potts. well, he was complaining all during the showup. he had on a t-shirt and the rest of them didn't have on t-shirts, and he was complaining, "well, everybody's got on a shirt and everything, and i've got a t-shirt on"--he was very belligerent about the showup. he wouldn't cooperate in any way. he was just making all kinds of commotion out there and he was doing more of the talking than anybody. mr. ball. what kind of commotion was he making? mr. potts. well, he was doing a lot of talking about him being in a t-shirt, and "nobody else has got on a t-shirt and i've got on a t-shirt, this is unfair," and all that--just generally talking and after the showup was over, we just accompanied them back from the stage out to the anteroom door and just walked along with them and the elevator--took them on the elevator, and that's all we had to do with the show. mr. ball. that's all you had to do with it? mr. potts. yes. mr. ball. what were the appearances of the four men who came out? mr. potts. they were similar in size--i didn't pick them--i don't know who did, but they were generally the same size, and, of course, the ages are a little different here. mr. ball. what ages were they, do you know? mr. potts. well, horne was --he was born november , , i believe that's right. mr. ball. john thurman horne? mr. potts. yes; and this david edmond knapp, he was . he was born october , , and this daniel lujan, he was , and he was born february , . mr. ball. and do you have the addresses of these three men? mr. potts. yes; i do--now, i got the addresses off of--out of our records bureau--off of their arrest cards. i don't know whether they gave a fictitious address or not. mr. ball. yes. mr. potts. now, horne is ann arbor. mr. ball. ann arbor? mr. potts. yes. mr. ball. and that's dallas? mr. potts. yes; that's in oak cliff. mr. ball. and what was he charged with--why was he in jail? mr. potts. traffic tickets--he had a number of traffic tickets. mr. ball. traffic tickets? mr. potts. yes; he had a stack of them--all on the same arrest date. mr. ball. he did? mr. potts. yes--red lights and so on. mr. ball. and what about david knapp, what was he in for? mr. potts. he was in for investigation of theft and he lived at alabama. that's in oak cliff. mr. ball. and he was in for investigation? mr. potts. investigation of burglary and theft. mr. ball. was he convicted? mr. potts. well, i don't know anything about that. mr. ball. you don't know where he is now? mr. potts. no, sir; i have never seen those men since. mr. ball. you don't know whether he was convicted or not? mr. potts. no, sir; i don't. mr. ball. what about lujan? mr. potts. daniel lujan--[spelling] l-u-j-a-n, i guess that's the way you pronounce it. he was born february , , and gave the address of lear [spelling] l-e-a-r street, and he was in for investigation of violation of state narcotic laws. mr. ball. and was he convicted, or do you know? mr. potts. i don't know. mr. ball. do you know if any one of these men has ever been convicted of a felony? mr. potts. no, sir; i don't. mr. ball. you know nothing about that? mr. potts. i know nothing about them at all. in fact, that's the first time i have ever seen them and i suppose the last time. mr. ball. now, did you take any further part in the investigation? mr. potts. that presidential assassination--i think that's about all i done on that. mr. ball. i think that one day you went out and talked to mr. fischer? mr. potts. yes; i talked to a boy named fischer--on the th of november. of course, you know i was off duty on the ruby thing. mr. ball. yes; i know that. mr. potts. i was at home then and i was sitting there and my wife said, "they are going to televise this transfer of oswald." i said, "i've seen enough of that and i don't want to look at it." and she said, "we need milk and bread for lunch," and so i got up and got in the car and went to safeway and was standing in line to check out there and a woman--well, it looked like a woman--came out and said, "oswald has just been shot." well, i thought that was a big joke, too, and went back out there and turned on the car radio and there that was. i came on back on duty that day. mr. ball. when you went out to see mr. fischer---- mr. potts. now, mr. turner had this information about this fischer man. he and mr. senkel--they were in the motorcade that day. in fact, they were in the lead car. mr. ball. senkel was? mr. potts. senkel, turner, and chief lumpkin were in the lead car in the motorcade, and i think turner had gotten this information about this fischer fellow. i had never heard about him until turner asked me, he said, "let's go out and talk to this mr. fischer." he said, "he is supposed to have been standing down there watching the parade go by and he saw this man in this window," and he wanted to know--we took a picture of lee harvey oswald out there to see if he could identify him as being the man he saw in the window, and we went out there on the th of november with lee harvey oswald's picture to flamingo street in mesquite. that's where this ronald fischer lives, and he works for the county auditor's office down there. he was working that day and most of the county employees stood out on the street to watch the parade, and we took his picture out there and he said, "i can't say for sure that's the man that i saw in that window up there, but it looks like him." he said he saw him up there just a few minutes before he heard the shots fired. mr. ball. now, you made written reports of these investigations you are testifying about? mr. potts. yes. mr. ball. and you have refreshed your memory from them--from your own handwritten notes? mr. potts. that's right--i have. mr. ball. i would like to have marked your report on your officer's duty on friday, november , and also on the d and th of november, being two sheets, numbered and , as the next exhibit, and page of your report, being no. , being a report of your participation in the showup on november , , at : --as the next exhibit. (instrument referred to marked by the reporter as "potts exhibits b and c," respectively, for identification.) mr. ball. i think that's all and i do want to thank you very much. mr. potts. you are certainly welcome. mr. ball. this will be written up and you can come down and read it and sign it or you can waive your signature and we will send it on to the commission. you can tell me what you want to do. mr. potts. oh, i will sign it. mr. ball. all right, then you will be notified when it is ready for you to sign. testimony of john p. adamcik the testimony of john p. adamcik was taken at a.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. david w. belin, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. belin. would you want to stand and raise your right hand, sir? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. adamcik. i do. mr. belin. would you please state your name? mr. adamcik. john p. adamcik. mr. belin. where do you live? mr. adamcik. i live right now at samuell boulevard, apartment . mr. belin. where is that? mr. adamcik. that is over in the eastern part of dallas. mr. belin. in dallas, tex.? mr. adamcik. it is in dallas, tex. mr. belin. how old are you, sir? mr. adamcik. i am . mr. belin. what is your occupation? mr. adamcik. i am a detective with the dallas police department. mr. belin. did you go to school in dallas? mr. adamcik. no, sir; i didn't. mr. belin. where did you go to high school? mr. adamcik. lagrange, tex. mr. belin. lagrange high school? mr. adamcik. right. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. adamcik. i worked there in lagrange for a short period of time, and came to dallas and worked for temco aircraft co. mr. belin. what did you do for them? mr. adamcik. i was an assembler. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. adamcik. then i went in the marine corps for a short period of time. mr. belin. how long were you in the marine corps? mr. adamcik. i was in there approximately months, got out on a hardship discharge. mr. belin. you mean family? mr. adamcik. yes. mr. belin. was it an honorable discharge? mr. adamcik. yes; i got an honorable discharge--hardship discharge. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. adamcik. i went home and assisted the family, because my father was injured. that was the reason i got the discharge. and i don't know, i got everybody going in shape which would be, i think it was probably around a year, and i came back to dallas and got on the police department. mr. belin. and you have been in the police department ever since? mr. adamcik. every since, except i took another -month leave of absence and i spent months on active duty with the u.s. army reserves. after the hardship ended, i went back in the army for months. mr. belin. your position with the dallas police department is now what? mr. adamcik. detective in the homicide and robbery bureau. mr. belin. are you married? mr. adamcik. yes. mr. belin. family? mr. adamcik. one-month-old baby. mr. belin. a month old baby. boy or girl? mr. adamcik. boy. mr. belin. you must be pretty proud? mr. adamcik. yes. mr. belin. what is his name? mr. adamcik. mark allen. mr. belin. your wife taking good care of that baby? mr. adamcik. oh, yes. mr. belin. officer, first i want to talk about november , . were you on duty on that date? mr. adamcik. no, sir; i wasn't, not at the time pertaining to this. mr. belin. not at the time of the assassination? mr. adamcik. no; i wasn't. mr. belin. you were off duty? mr. adamcik. i was at home, off duty. mr. belin. when did you get on duty that day? mr. adamcik. i was supposed to go on at . however, when i heard of the assassination--i was supposed to go to court at o'clock, and i reported down to the courts and the courts were closed, so i immediately reported to my office, which was about or so. mr. belin. you were at the office the rest of the afternoon? mr. adamcik. no, sir. i stayed at the office a short period of time. i wasn't there over an hour when oswald was brought in by the arresting officers and we were asked--detectives stovall and rose and myself were asked by captain fritz and the supervisor to go to his residence in irving, to the paine residence. mr. belin. did oswald give them that address? mr. adamcik. i don't know. i don't recall whether he gave them the address or they found it on his person in evidence as identification. mr. belin. what was the address? mr. adamcik. west fifth street, irving. i don't have any idea how that came about at all. all i remember is that we were told to go to this address. i don't even remember whether we had a name, a definite name. we were told to go to this address, that this was the address he had on his person, or something similar to that, and we did what we were told. mr. belin. about what time was this? mr. adamcik. this was approximately : . could i use my report? mr. belin. sure. you take your report out and refresh your recollection. mr. adamcik. i have it on here, the times mainly. this would be approximately : . mr. belin. all right, did you have a search warrant when you went out there? mr. adamcik. no, sir; we did not. mr. belin. any particular reason why you didn't? mr. adamcik. well, at the time, we didn't know what we would find. we didn't have any idea what this address meant to us, and we were mainly going over to see who was there. we decided if we were not allowed in the house, invited in, that we could get a search warrant later to go in, whereas at the time we didn't have any idea that that address actually had any connection with these people or with oswald. mr. belin. who did you go with? mr. adamcik. i went with detectives rose and stovall, and we were met by three county officers there at the scene before we went up, because being out of the city limits of dallas, we had three county officers go along with us, because it was in their jurisdiction. mr. belin. what time did you get there? mr. adamcik. i would say that it didn't take us over, it probably took us half an hour to get there. i would say it would be approximately o'clock. mr. belin. what did you do when you got there? mr. adamcik. we waited a few minutes for the county officers to get there, and when they got there we came outside, and i went with one of the county officers or two of the county officers to the back door, and one of the county officers and detectives rose and stovall went to the front door. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. adamcik. we waited until detectives rose and stovall and the county officers got inside the house, which was a period of time of maybe or minutes when they were invited in, and they came to the back door and opened it up and asked us to come in. mr. belin. who asked you to come in? mr. adamcik. detectives rose and stovall, plus--because mrs. paine was in the house at the time standing next to them. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. adamcik. well, we started looking around the house. i think detectives rose and stovall handled most of the interrogation. they asked the questions of mrs. paine, and mrs. oswald, after we found out who they were--and i didn't do any interrogating at the time at all, i just sort of stood and listened, and we started looking around. we asked them where mr. oswald was, and various things, and we looked around. mr. belin. what did mrs. oswald say about whether or not you could see her room? mr. adamcik. she never did say anything at all. in fact, she showed us where the room was and showed us several things in the room. mr. belin. what did mrs. paine do? mr. adamcik. she didn't object at all. they were really very cooperative. mr. belin. do you remember what the interrogation was? who said what? mr. adamcik. no; i don't recall. i assume it was, you know, they asked her who she was. mr. belin. did anyone ask when was the last time they saw lee harvey oswald? mr. adamcik. oh, yes; i heard it asked. mr. belin. what was the answer given, if you remember? mr. adamcik. i don't recall. mr. belin. well, did they take you out to the garage? mr. adamcik. not me. they took two of--some of the officers. i think it was detectives stovall and rose, to the garage. i think it was through mrs. oswald that she went ahead and told mrs. paine something, and mrs. paine drew their attention to the garage. mr. belin. did anyone say anything about a rifle? mr. adamcik. i didn't hear it. i wasn't present when they went in the garage at all. mr. belin. all right, what did you do? mr. adamcik. well, we stayed in the house for a good while, and we called, or one of our men called in the office, i didn't, and asked them what they should do. and of course they told them to bring the people in, that they wanted to talk to them at the office. and we told them about it and they agreed that they would go. and of course our problem was the children. there was some children, both of mrs. oswald's children were there, and i don't remember, i believe mrs. paine's were there, and we wondered where they would stay, or make some arrangements for the neighbors to keep them or not, and if i remember correctly, after we were there a while, michael paine, mrs. paine's husband came in. we have it here someplace what time it was. mr. belin. did you hear what michael paine said when he came in? mr. adamcik. yes. he came in about : and told his wife that he heard the president was shot and he came over to see whether he could help, and they were surprised. mr. belin. when he said he heard the president was shot and he came over to see if he could help, why would he help her if the president was shot? mr. adamcik. i don't know. apparently in the affidavit, i was present. later on he said that his first idea when he heard that the president was shot was that oswald could have been the one that done it, when he found out about the location, so apparently he figured that somebody would be over there questioning them. mr. belin. all right, then what happened? mr. adamcik. well, we went through the house, if i remember correctly, and i believe the other detectives found some property. i know they found this blanket that was rolled up in the garage. mr. belin. were you there when they saw the blanket? mr. adamcik. no; i wasn't there. i saw the blanket later. mr. belin. where was it when you first saw it? mr. adamcik. i believe they took it in the house. i am pretty sure. mr. belin. had they unrolled the blanket when they took it in the house? mr. adamcik. no; they had a string still tied around it. apparently had two strings, and just one of the strings were cut. mr. belin. one of the strings was cut? mr. adamcik. yes. mr. belin. who cut it, do you know? mr. adamcik. i don't have any idea. mr. belin. had it been cut by an officer of the dallas police department? mr. adamcik. no; it definitely wasn't. mr. belin. pardon? mr. adamcik. definitely wasn't. as far as i know, it wasn't. mr. belin. how was the blanket rolled, do you know, offhand, approximately? mr. adamcik. it appeared to be or feet, maybe. mr. belin. was there anything in the blanket? mr. adamcik. not that i could see. mr. belin. was the blanket stiff or limp? mr. adamcik. it was a regular wool blanket, and it wasn't fairly stiff. just from being rolled that way, it didn't appear like it was real stiff. just normal. mr. belin. did you see anyone carrying the blanket? mr. adamcik. no; i didn't. mr. belin. did you lift the blanket up? mr. adamcik. no; i never did lift the blanket up. mr. belin. what happened after it was brought inside? mr. adamcik. i don't recall then at all. i left the house after awhile and went with, i believe it was, mrs. paine. i went with her to one of the neighbor houses to see about the children, leaving the children there. i left and went with her. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. adamcik. coming back, mrs. frazier, i believe it was, drove up to the house as i was coming back with--no, it was mrs. bill randle. she (mrs. randle) was a neighbor there and she was driving up to the house, so i asked her whether she knew anything about what had happened, and whether she had seen lee oswald, and she did tell me that lee oswald rode to work with her brother, which is wesley frazier, who was staying with her, and he rode to work with him that morning. she told me that she saw--she was up early in the morning and was drinking coffee, and saw lee harvey oswald go across the front yard, across the yard carrying like a long package wrapped in something, carrying it from the paine house to wesley's car. mr. belin. did she say how he was carrying the package? mr. adamcik. no; she didn't. i think we got an affidavit. in fact, i know we did, but i didn't take it. mr. belin. did she say about how long the package was? mr. adamcik. no; she said it was long and wrapped in a paper or a box. that is all i remember her saying. mr. belin. anything else on there? did she say anything that it was unusual for oswald to be home at all during the week? mr. adamcik. yes; she did say that. that oswald usually spent the weekends over there, and it was unusual for him to be there on a thursday night and go to work with him on friday. mr. belin. anything else you remember offhand? mr. adamcik. no; i don't believe i do. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. adamcik. by then we went ahead and took these people and put them in a car. i think mrs. oswald took both the children. mrs. paine got a neighbor to keep her children and mrs. oswald and her two children were put in our car, the city police car, and mrs. paine also went with us, and michael paine, mrs. paine's husband, went with the county officer, and we proceeded to go to the city police station. mr. belin. then what? mr. adamcik. we took them up to the homicide and robbery bureau office and conditions were very crowded there, so we moved up to the forgery bureau next door, and we put them in the interrogation room and waited a pretty good while. by this time it was approximately p.m., and i think they were trying to get an interpreter and question mrs. oswald. that was the reason for the wait. mr. belin. all right. mr. adamcik. oh, yes, after talking to this mrs. randle, we wanted to talk to wesley frazier, and she said that he was at parkland visiting his sick daddy. so when we got back to the station, we checked with parkland and couldn't find anybody by that name over there, so we checked with the clinic there in irving, i believe it was, irving professional center, and found out that he was there. the nurse checked the room, and he was there at the time, so some of the detectives called out there and had him placed in custody at that time so we could get an affidavit from him or question him. mr. belin. all right. mr. adamcik. however, i didn't go back over there and get him. mr. belin. when you got down to the station, you were with mrs. paine? mr. adamcik. right. when we got to the station, there was mrs. paine, mrs. oswald and her two children, and michael paine. mr. belin. was mrs. oswald questioned at all or not? mr. adamcik. mrs. oswald, yes; she was. she was questioned that same evening. mr. belin. what did she say? mr. adamcik. well, she was questioned through an interpreter, and an affidavit was gotten from her also. i know she was showed the rifle in my presence. i was there with captain fritz and myself and detective senkel, and the rifle was showed to her then, and she looked at it, and i remember her saying through an interpreter that it did look like the rifle, but she didn't say, but it did look like the rifle that lee oswald, that was in the garage previous to finding the blanket eventually. mr. belin. when you say finding the blanket eventually, did she say the blanket was there? was it simply that when you showed the blanket to the officers, apparently she made some remark that about a week or so previous to that her husband's rifle had been wrapped in a blanket? mr. adamcik. i can't remember exactly how long. i don't remember when she said the last time was she saw it. mr. belin. did mrs. paine indicate she ever saw the rifle there? mr. adamcik. i can't remember. i took an affidavit, and i know i questioned her about the rifle, and i can't remember whether she ever said. i would have to see the affidavit. i don't have a copy. i don't believe she said she seen the rifle. i believe that she said she saw the blanket there, but i am sure that that would be in the affidavit. that would be in the affidavit, though. mr. belin. now anything else happen there? mr. adamcik. no; after mrs. oswald was questioned, i took an affidavit from mrs. paine. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. adamcik. i think this other detective, i think senkel, probably took one from mrs. oswald. mr. belin. you mean marina, lee oswald's wife? mr. adamcik. that's right, the wife. mr. belin. then what? mr. adamcik. shortly after we got through with him, with this, i believe lee oswald's mother came in. i don't remember whether she had been in previous and was in some other office, but i know they brought her in the same office we were in at that time, and after we got through, they were all sitting in the same room together, mrs. oswald, lee's mother, and the wife, and the children, and mrs. paine, and michael paine. mr. belin. did lee oswald's mother say anything? mr. adamcik. no; she kind of didn't say anything definite. she kind of had the feeling--i don't know how to explain it--just like this, well, she didn't realize what really happened and just couldn't quite understand it, or something. she didn't say. mr. belin. what about lee oswald's brother? mr. adamcik. to me, he was in there, too. i didn't break that up. he seemed rather calm to me. he was real calm and real collected. mr. belin. did he say anything at all? mr. adamcik. not to me, not in my presence. mr. belin. all right, then, what did you do? mr. adamcik. i was asked by captain fritz to take these people home, and he wanted me to take someone with me, and i took lieutenant mckinney, who was one of the lieutenants in the forgery bureau. i used his car, and he went along with me to take these people home. mr. belin. then what did you do? first of all, did they say anything more on the way home about the incident or not? mr. adamcik. no; i believe the only thing i definitely remember is that marina oswald kept saying, telling mrs. oswald that this was her home, and she still decided she would like to stay here. she didn't want to go back to russia. i remember her saying that. mr. belin. do you remember someone saying that through an interpreter? mr. adamcik. right. mrs. paine was there, and she could interpret. mr. belin. all right. mr. adamcik. she wasn't real good, but she could speak enough russian to interpret a little bit. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. adamcik. we took them to irving, to the paine house. at this time i believe mrs. oswald was the only other person that we took back there to the paine house that didn't come down to the station with us originally. mr. belin. you mean the mother? mr. adamcik. yes; the mother, she went back with us. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. adamcik. well, this was fairly late. i guess it was around o'clock when we got back, so apparently it was around when we started taking them to irving, and got back about . we just dropped them off at the house and went on back to the office. mr. belin. what did you do when you got back to the office? mr. adamcik. went to the office and i stayed there a while, and i guess it was around o'clock, i mean the interrogation room in the captain's office, and spent about minutes. mr. belin. why did you go in the interrogation room? mr. adamcik. well, at that time i think somebody else just finished talking to him, and i think the captain had to go see somebody or something, and nobody was in the room at the time, and he told us to go on in there for a little while and see whether we could talk to oswald. i think detective montgomery went in there with me, i am not sure. mr. belin. were you the only two in there at that time? mr. adamcik. yes; i think so. the id bureau came in there and either fingerprinted him or done something. when they came in there, i left. it was just a short period of time. mr. belin. do you remember any conversation that took place there? mr. adamcik. no; except i asked him whether he drove a car. i did ask him that. and i remember him saying something that he didn't. mr. belin. that he did or did not? mr. adamcik. that he did not. and i asked him how long he was in russia and whether he liked it there, and i remember him telling me how long he was there. i think it was two years, or something like that. mr. belin. well---- mr. adamcik. i don't remember exactly what he said, and he liked it okay, and that is just about it. mr. belin. did you talk about the assassination at all? mr. adamcik. no; it wasn't anything at all concerned with the assassination. mr. belin. did you ask him any questions? mr. adamcik. we did. mr. belin. like what kind of questions? mr. adamcik. like where were you at the time this assassination occurred; and he just wouldn't say anything. mr. belin. did he just keep quiet? mr. adamcik. he just sat there and stared straight ahead. mr. belin. didn't talk at all? mr. adamcik. no. mr. belin. did he ask for an attorney while you were there? mr. adamcik. not in my presence. mr. belin. did you ask him any questions about officer tippit's murder? mr. adamcik. no; i don't believe that i did. mr. belin. anyone else there that did? mr. adamcik. i didn't hear anybody. mr. belin. all right, then what happened? mr. adamcik. well, i just stayed at the office until about o'clock in the morning. mr. belin. ever see oswald again? mr. adamcik. i seen him being led out of the office from the interview, i believe. i didn't go down there. mr. belin. what interview? mr. adamcik. i think they had--i don't know whether it was an interview or some kind of press conference down in the assembly room. mr. belin. when would that have been? mr. adamcik. it would have been about midnight. mr. belin. do you know if oswald requested it or if someone else did? mr. adamcik. i don't recall. mr. belin. then what happened? mr. adamcik. i stayed in the office after captain fritz and the other men came back. he told us to go on home and come back the next morning about o'clock. mr. belin. then what happened? mr. adamcik. well, i went home, and about or shortly before , i came in, and captain fritz asked detectives rose and stovall; and detective moore--at this time he was a regular partner of rose and stovall--asked me, since i was there the previous day, to go along back to mrs. paine's house for a little more complete search. mr. belin. did you have a search warrant at this time? mr. adamcik. yes; we stopped by and got a search warrant from judge joe b. brown, jr., over in oak cliff, and came by his house and picked up the search warrant. mr. belin. what did you do when you got to the house? mr. adamcik. we got out to the house. i didn't have a search warrant. one of the other detectives did. they told us to come on in, and they were there. i remember at the time we came in, that they were going grocery shopping, and they left and just told us to look at anything we wanted to. mr. belin. the previous day had you taken anything out of the house? mr. adamcik. i didn't. mr. belin. did any of the officers take anything out of the house? mr. adamcik. yes; some of the other officers did. mr. belin. what did they take? mr. adamcik. i don't recall. i believe they took some camera equipment. it might have been a movie camera or projector. i didn't take anything. i know they took some items. mr. belin. anything else that you remember? mr. adamcik. no; there weren't too many items the first day. mr. belin. what about the second day? mr. adamcik. the second day we made a pretty complete search. we went mainly in the garage. we had also an irving police officer. it was, i think, detective mccabe from the irving police department. and we went through the house and garage. mr. belin. what did you take with you? mr. adamcik. well, we picked up--i got a list of it, also, which we turned over to the fbi, but we picked up items such as letters and pictures and oh, just a whole bunch of items. mr. belin. did you find the picture of oswald with the rifle? mr. adamcik. i didn't find it. it was found while i was back in the garage. mr. belin. that was found in the garage? mr. adamcik. right. mr. belin. any comments about that at all? mr. adamcik. naturally, when somebody found it, we all looked at it, and everybody said, "that looks like the rifle that was used in the assassination." mr. belin. was mrs. paine or mrs. oswald there? mr. adamcik. no. at that time they weren't there. they were grocery shopping. mr. belin. did you show the picture to them later on? mr. adamcik. the picture was shown to them, but it wasn't there at the scene, and it was shown at the office, i understand. mr. belin. you weren't there when it was done? mr. adamcik. no; i wasn't. mr. belin. anything else? mr. adamcik. well, no other than--i didn't even begin to tell you what all we found. it was books and pictures and they found some of his stuff from the marine corps when he was in the marine corps, and a lot of russian, i think they were books on the russian language, and some vaccination certificates and stuff like that. a lot of stuff was written in russian, and we didn't have any idea what it said. even the letters, a lot of them were written in russian. mr. belin. anything else? mr. adamcik. no; i don't recall anything pertaining to the search at all. i know that everything we--at the time, that we felt it was important, as far as investigation of the murder of the president and officer tippit was concerned, we took with us. there might have been some things we didn't take, but at the time the search was conducted, it was conducted more or less for each person at the same time, for the murder. mr. belin. was an inventory made of the items taken? mr. adamcik. there was. yes; there was, definitely. mr. belin. you put that on file with the dallas police department? mr. adamcik. there was an inventory made, and there was receipts for all the property, and it is itemized. everything is itemized. mr. belin. anything else that you can think of? mr. adamcik. no; i know the search took a pretty good while. we didn't get back to the office until about p.m., so i assume we got there probably around or : , and we stayed there or hours. mr. belin. anything else at all that you can think of that is important? mr. adamcik. i don't know who found it. it was either stovall or rose. mr. belin. officer adamcik, i will hand you what appears to be a document from the dallas police department entitled, "property clerk's invoice or receipt." it is an inventory. it commences with page no. g through g, and ask you to state if this appears to be a copy of the inventory that you picked up out on your search there? mr. adamcik. let me see if i can see all these. yes; it is. mr. belin. all right, rather than offer it in this deposition, i believe you said that--who was the senior officer out there among you, or wasn't there any? mr. adamcik. yes; there was. i was not the senior officer conducting the search. probably detective rose, although i believe detective moore might have been previous, but since detective rose was there the previous day, he was spokesman for the group. mr. belin. did stovall work more with you or with rose? mr. adamcik. with rose. mr. belin. i believe mr. ball is about to take the deposition of r. s. stovall, and i think what we will do is give this inventory to mr. ball and let him introduce it in that deposition. mr. adamcik. that first day i couldn't tell you anything because i was out of the house trying to take care of the kids. mr. belin. is there anything else you can think of, officer, that we haven't discussed here? mr. adamcik. no. the only thing is, after we finished conducting the search and got back to the office, i remember the previous day we didn't take an affidavit from michael paine, so detective moore and myself went back to irving--should be around o'clock, and picked up mr. paine and brought him back to the office for somebody to take an affidavit from him. mr. belin. did he say anything, that you remember, when you were taking the affidavit, about the rifle or the blanket? mr. adamcik. he did. i was present when he said it, and it is in the affidavit, about seeing the blanket in which the rifle was wrapped in, or he assumed it was the blanket in which the rifle was wrapped. mr. belin. did he know that it contained a rifle? mr. adamcik. i don't think so. but he said he had seen it several times previous to the assassination. mr. belin. did he say anything about why he came to his wife's residence that day of the assassination? mr. adamcik. yes, sir; he did. i brought that out in the affidavit, and i remember something about him saying when he heard that the president got killed, well, knowing where it occurred and where lee oswald worked, and knowing his background, well, he said that oswald's name came into his mind immediately. mr. belin. did he say it came into his mind? mr. adamcik. he said, knowing about his background and all--i remember just about what he said--that he knew that he would be asked to be considered a suspect, and--or that we would consider him a suspect, something. he didn't say who, but the way the situation was. mr. belin. did he say what it was in his background that would make him considered to be a suspect? mr. adamcik. it is in the affidavit, and i can't remember what he said. whether he said it was because he was in russia at one time, or something about him being a russian citizen, or whether it was because for some other reason. anyway, it is in the affidavit. i can't think exactly what he said. it is worded pretty well, because he signed the affidavit and it is in his words. i can look at it. mr. belin. here is an affidavit that appears to be signed by michael paine. he says that he felt concern for his wife, is that correct? mr. adamcik. right; he did say that. mr. belin. he says that he saw a heavy pipelike object wrapped in a blanket, tied with a string. is that what he said? mr. adamcik. that is what he said. mr. belin. he said, "i picked it up to get it out of the way of the powersaw." mr. adamcik. that is what he said. mr. belin. did he say he had a lot of tools, and he mentioned he picked up this object and put it out of the way of his powersaw? mr. adamcik. that's right. mr. belin. and it says in the affidavit he thought it was tenting equipment. is that what he said? mr. adamcik. that's right. mr. belin. he says later in the affidavit that he heard the president was shot while he was at work, is that correct? mr. adamcik. that's correct. mr. belin. he said he heard the shots were from the texas school book depository, and he said that he knew that oswald worked there, and immediately thought of him, and wondered if he might have shot the president? mr. adamcik. that is what he said. mr. belin. he says he wondered if he should call the fbi. is that what he says in the affidavit? mr. adamcik. that's right, exactly. mr. belin. he says he thought it unlikely that he shot the president. did he say that he thought it was unlikely that oswald shot the president? mr. adamcik. yes; he said that. and then he explained why he didn't call the fbi. he said he figured that--he did mention that the fbi knew about oswald and that they would probably have contacted him and would consider him a suspect without him having to call them. mr. belin. did he say why the fbi knew about oswald? mr. adamcik. no; he didn't. mr. belin. anything else you can think of, sir? mr. adamcik. no; i believe that is it. after we picked him up and took this affidavit just shortly after, i went on home and that was the end of it, until sunday. sunday i was off, and everything happened down there, luckily. mr. belin. luckily you were off? mr. adamcik. yes. mr. belin. sir; we want to thank you for your cooperation for coming down here. you have an opportunity to either let the deposition go directly to washington, or you can come back and read it and sign it. you can waive the signing, or come back and read it and sign it, whatever you want to do. mr. adamcik. about how long would it be before it is ready? mr. belin. several days. you want to sign, or just let her send it on to us? mr. adamcik. i would kind of like to look at it. mr. belin. all right, this lady will get in touch with you and you can take a look at it. mr. adamcik. okay. testimony of henry m. moore the testimony of henry m. moore was taken at a.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. david w. belin, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. belin. would you stand and raise your right hand and i will swear you here. do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. moore. i do. mr. belin. mr. moore, would you please state your name for the reporter. mr. moore. henry m. moore. mr. belin. what is your occupation, mr. moore? mr. moore. police officer, city of dallas. mr. belin. you were raised in texas? mr. moore. yes. mr. belin. how old are you? mr. moore. i am . mr. belin. married? mr. moore. yes. mr. belin. family? mr. moore. five children. mr. belin. your wife has her hands full with them? mr. moore. sure does. mr. belin. did you go to high school here in dallas? mr. moore. no; ennis, ennis high school. mr. belin. where is that located? mr. moore. that is south of dallas bout miles. mr. belin. were you a graduate from high school? mr. moore. no, i didn't graduate. mr. belin. how far did you get through high school? mr. moore. eighth. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. moore. went in the service. mr. belin. into the armed services? mr. moore. yes. mr. belin. army or navy? mr. moore. paratroopers; army. mr. belin. how long were you in the paratroopers? mr. moore. three years. mr. belin. when did you get out? mr. moore. january , . mr. belin. do you remember that day? mr. moore. very well. mr. belin. honorably discharged? mr. moore. yes. mr. belin. then what did you do after that? mr. moore. oh, i fooled around on the farm about years, and then i came to dallas. mr. belin. had you worked on the farm before you went into the service? mr. moore. yes. mr. belin. between the time you got out of school and the time you went into the service? mr. moore. no. mr. belin. you went direct from school to the service? mr. moore. shortly afterward. mr. belin. you were on the farm for a while, and then what did you do? mr. moore. came to dallas police department. mr. belin. what year was that? mr. moore. january , . mr. belin. and you have been there ever since? mr. moore. yes. mr. belin. what is your position there right now? mr. moore. detective. mr. belin. were you on duty on november around noon? mr. moore. no. mr. belin. when were you to report to work that day? mr. moore. four; : p.m. mr. belin. when did you report for work that day? mr. moore. shortly after the assassination, soon as i could get to town. mr. belin. how shortly after? mr. moore. or : , somewhere around there. maybe . mr. belin. you reported down at the main police station? mr. moore. yes, sir. mr. belin. what did you do when you got there? mr. moore. well, i helped answer telephones mostly for, oh, i don't know, until the time i went out to north beckley to search oswald's room. mr. belin. at north beckley? mr. moore. yes; i believe that is right. mr. belin. about when was that? mr. moore. i am going to guess around or so in the evening. the notes may show a little closer time. mr. belin. did you have a search warrant? mr. moore. yes. mr. belin. do you know who got it? mr. moore. the judge issued it. judge david johnston. mr. belin. did he go with you there, too? mr. moore. yes. mr. belin. who else went? mr. moore. district attorney bill alexander and detective f. m. turner. mr. belin. you went to that address, and did the landlady--let me ask you this. you got to the door at north beckley? mr. moore. yes; we met some other officers there. they were already inside. mr. belin. at that time they found out that lee harvey oswald lived there? mr. moore. i believe they had; yes. mr. belin. what did you do when you got there? mr. moore. we searched his room. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. moore. brought everything in the room to the city hall. mr. belin. you made a list of what you found there? mr. moore. yes. mr. belin. anything in particular that you found there? mr. moore. yes; one map, city of dallas map, and it had several marks located on it. mr. belin. anything else? mr. moore. personal effects, clothing, radio, and gun scabbard. mr. belin. what do you mean by that? mr. moore. a holster. mr. belin. what kind of gun? mr. moore. . pistol, i believe it was. mr. belin. did you find the gun itself, or just the holster? mr. moore. no; just the holster. i believe they had recovered the gun from him earlier in the day. mr. belin. anything else there that you can establish? mr. moore. i believe i mentioned his clothing, personal effects? mr. belin. some letters? mr. moore. yes; i'm sure there were some letters and papers. mr. belin. pamphlets? mr. moore. i am not sure. i believe there was some. i am not sure, though. mr. belin. i am going to hand you a copy which appears to be a photostatic copy of a property clerk's invoice or receipt. by the way, how many times did you go to north beckley? mr. moore. i only went one time. mr. belin. did anyone else search the room next day, or do you know? mr. moore. i don't know. i don't remember. i can't see any point. we brought everything that was in the room. mr. belin. you brought everything there? i am handing you pages marked on this police department, "city of dallas property clerk's invoice or receipt no. g through g." does this appear to be a copy of the inventory here? mr. moore. yes; i believe it is. mr. belin. we will call that moore deposition exhibit no. . i might state for the record that this appears to be--what was the last number i gave there--it looks like g, and i might state for the record that these appear also in the dallas police report file which is known in the president's commission files as document b, pages - , inclusive. i note then on this list it states that the search warrant is dated november , , which is day later than the date that you made the search. do you have any explanation for that? mr. moore. no; i wouldn't. mr. belin. did you see the original search warrant at all, or not? mr. moore. i don't know. mr. belin. i also notice there appears to be included in these articles a driver's handbook of the state of texas. do you remember whether or not that was there? mr. moore. it would be hard to say any one personal item of that nature. mr. belin. in other words, you couldn't remember anything specifically there except you do know that you put down on the list, or participated in putting down on the list everything that was picked up there? mr. moore. yes. mr. belin. is there anything on this list, to the best of your knowledge, that was not picked up out at north beckley? mr. moore. no. mr. belin. i noticed that there is an envelope which is marked "envelope containing receipt for post office box , dallas, tex., dated november , , for the period ending december , ." do you have any independent recollection of that being there? mr. moore. no. mr. belin. by that, you mean you cannot specifically recall now except you do know that someone put it down on the list as being obtained from there? mr. moore. right. mr. belin. i also note that one of the items appears to be a world health organization vaccination card, bearing the name of lee oswald, with the name of the vaccinator as a. j. hidell, post office box , new orleans, la., with the date stamped june , . do you remember anything like that, one of those health cards? mr. moore. not specifically no. mr. belin. and it says that there is a passport there. do you remember that at all? mr. moore. yes. mr. belin. you remember specifically the passport? mr. moore. yes. mr. belin. then there is an application for a texas driver's license, which appears as no. . do you remember that at all? mr. moore. yes; i do, since i have read the list. i remember the driver's license application. mr. belin. i hand you commission exhibit , and ask you to state if you know what that is? mr. moore. yes. mr. belin. what is that? mr. moore. application for texas driver's license. mr. belin. you picked it up there or someone with you picked it up on that day that you searched the residence at beckley? mr. moore. yes; you find my initials on the back of it, i believe. mr. belin. your initials, it says, hmm, - - . those are your initials? mr. moore. yes; and date. mr. belin. do you know who fmt is, or are those initials there? mr. moore. i believe that will be f. m. turner. mr. belin. f. m. turner? mr. moore. i believe. that is the only one i could think of it would be. mr. belin. all right. about how long did you stay out there? mr. moore. hour and a half, possibly. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. moore. we drove back to the city hall. mr. belin. now i assume then that you went through the property and marked it, and what have you. this took a little bit of time? mr. moore. yes; it did. mr. belin. anything else on that day that has anything else to do with the assassination of the president or the tippit murder that you can think of offhand? mr. moore. no. mr. belin. the next day you reported for work about when? mr. moore. as soon after the oswald shooting in the basement, as soon as i could get there. i live out of town. mr. belin. wait, that is when oswald was shot. i am not talking about sunday. i am talking about saturday. when did you search the beckley premises? on friday, saturday, or sunday? mr. moore. saturday. no; we searched it on friday. irving on saturday. mr. belin. irving on saturday. when did you get to work on saturday? mr. moore. i believe i came in around that morning. mr. belin. all right, you worked in the office for a while? mr. moore. yes. mr. belin. do you remember what you did offhand? mr. moore. answered the phone. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. moore. i went out with stovall and rose and adamcik to irving later in the day to search the residence at irving. mr. belin. would that be west fifth street in irving? mr. moore. right. mr. belin. had a search warrant for that? mr. moore. yes. mr. belin. you found several items there? mr. moore. yes. mr. belin. made a list of those similar to this other list? mr. moore. yes. mr. belin. anything else? do you remember any conversation you had out there with mrs. paine or mrs. oswald, marina oswald, or anyone else? mr. moore. when we arrived, they were preparing to leave and did leave. we had an irving officer with us. mr. belin. did they tell you to go ahead? mr. moore. yes, they did; just go ahead and help ourselves. they said they would be back later, and i am not sure that they even returned before we left. mr. belin. do you remember anything particularly you found out there that stands out in your mind? mr. moore. rose found the picture of oswald holding the rifle. mr. belin. did rose show it to you out there? mr. moore. yes, he did; at the time he found it. mr. belin. were you near him when he found it. mr. moore. yes. mr. belin. how far away was he from you? mr. moore. this was a one-car garage, and it would have to be close. four men searching in that garage. i would say a matter of or feet. mr. belin. what did rose say to you when he found it? mr. moore. he said, "look at this." of course we all looked and commented on it. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. moore. well, we continued our search, and after we had completed it, we again brought everything that we had picked up to our office. mr. belin. you made another list of it? mr. moore. yes. mr. belin. anything else that you did that day? mr. moore. no. mr. belin. did you bring in michael paine for taking an affidavit from him, do you remember? mr. moore. yes, i did. mr. adamcik and i went out and brought--we went back to the residence and brought him in later that day. mr. belin. you talked to him for a while? mr. moore. yes, i did. mr. belin. then you took the affidavit? mr. moore. yes. mr. belin. then the next day was the th of november, sunday. were you on duty sunday morning? mr. moore. no. mr. belin. when did you get to work on sunday? mr. moore. approximately o'clock. mr. belin. what did you do when you got there? mr. moore. i am sure i worked around the office until the time that rose and i went to ruby's apartment. mr. belin. did you have a search warrant for that? mr. moore. yes. we went to judge joe b. brown's residence and got the search warrant. mr. belin. is it pretty much standard procedure at the dallas police department to have a search warrant whenever you go to a person's premises? mr. moore. more or less. mr. belin. if you don't have a search warrant, what is your procedure when you come to the door? just what do you do? mr. moore. if we do not have a search warrant? mr. belin. yes. mr. moore. well, it would all depend on why we were going, really. if we got a search warrant, if we were looking for stolen property, or things of that nature, we would most probably have one. if we did not have one, if people invited us in, it would be legal to be in the house anyway. and if they don't invite us in, or tell us we can't enter, then in all probability we will get a search warrant and go in anyway. mr. belin. anything else you can think of that is important in any way that bears on this investigation? mr. moore. no. mr. belin. officer moore, do we call you officer or detective or mister? mr. moore. either way. mr. belin. you have an opportunity, if you like, to come back and read this deposition and sign it before it comes to us in washington, or you can just waive signing and let the court reporter send it to us directly in washington. do you have any preference or not? mr. moore. no. mr. belin. you want to sign, or do you want to waive signing it? mr. moore. what is the procedure? mr. belin. well, if you sign it, you come back and read it and then you sign it if it is accurate; otherwise, you leave it and we assume the court reporter is accurate, and she will send it to us as the record of your testimony here. mr. moore. i believe i would rather read it. no reflection on the reporter. mr. belin. well, she is too nice a reporter. if you would like to read it, why you certainly have that right, and the reporter will be getting in touch with you. do we have your address, or can she contact you at the dallas police department? mr. moore. yes; she can. mr. belin. you can come in and read it and she will send it to us. mr. moore. yes. mr. belin. we thank you very much for your splendid cooperation. good-bye. testimony of f. m. turner the testimony of f. m. turner was taken at : p.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. david w. belin, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. belin. do you want to stand and raise your right hand. do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. turner. i do. mr. belin. would you please state your name. mr. turner. f. m. turner. mr. belin. where do you live, mr. turner? mr. turner. i live at garland, tex. mr. belin. that is a suburb of dallas? mr. turner. right. mr. belin. what is your occupation? mr. turner. detective of the dallas police department. mr. belin. how long have you been with the dallas police department? mr. turner. about years this september. mr. belin. how old are you? mr. turner. thirty-five. mr. belin. married? mr. turner. right. mr. belin. family? mr. turner. right. mr. belin. where were you born? mr. turner. murphy, tex. mr. belin. spent all your life in texas? mr. turner. except for a couple of years in the service. mr. belin. was that after you got out of high school? mr. turner. yes. mr. belin. how far did you go in high school? mr. turner. finished. mr. belin. you finished high school? mr. turner. yes. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. turner. went in the service. mr. belin. was that high school in murphy? mr. turner. no; it was plano, tex. mr. belin. then you went in the service? mr. turner. right. mr. belin. in the army or navy? mr. turner. coast guard. mr. belin. coast guard? mr. turner. yes, sir. mr. belin. what did you do there? mr. turner. i was a storekeeper. mr. belin. did you have a discharge from the coast guard, too? mr. turner. yes. mr. belin. did you get an honorable discharge? mr. turner. right. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. turner. when i first came out, i went to work as a carpenter's helper up around plano there. i worked at that a short while. and then i worked for the plano lumber yard in richardson, tex., and i worked there until i came to work for the police department. mr. belin. were you on duty on november , ? mr. turner. i was. mr. belin. did you have anything to do with the motorcade? mr. turner. i did; yes, sir. mr. belin. what was your position? mr. turner. i was riding in the pilot car of the motorcade, possibly minutes in front of the motorcade. mr. belin. who else was with your car? mr. turner. chief lumpkin from our department. mr. belin. is he an assistant chief of police? mr. turner. deputy chief of police. mr. belin. anyone else? mr. turner. my partner, detective b. l. senkel, and an army major whose name i do not remember. mr. belin. you went to love field to meet the president? mr. turner. in the car also was a secret service man, whose name i do not remember. yes, sir; i did go to love field to meet the president. mr. belin. you saw the plane arrive? mr. turner. yes, sir. mr. belin. you got prepared to leave a little bit ahead of time of the motorcade? mr. turner. we did. we drove to a gate on the outward edge of love field and waited until we got some radio contact from the chief. they were about ready to leave, and we had a running start. mr. belin. how many channels did you have on your radio? mr. turner. two. mr. belin. which channel were you on? mr. turner. channel . mr. belin. was the entire motorcade on channel ? mr. turner. the entire motorcade was on channel , and i believe there was a dispatcher at the central station on channel , that relayed some of the changes, and some of the messages were car to car, back and forth. mr. belin. other police business would be on channel , at the time, or also on channel ? mr. turner. other police business was on channel . mr. belin. all right, you went through the city ahead of the actual motorcade, is that correct? mr. turner. yes, sir. mr. belin. did you keep track of where the motorcade was? mr. turner. yes, sir; by radio. mr. belin. by radio did you keep track of how fast the motorcade was going? mr. turner. yes, sir; by radio. mr. belin. do you remember whether or not there was any radio conversation as to how fast the motorcade was going at the time it got to main and houston? mr. turner. i don't recall. mr. belin. who did you keep your primary radio contact with? mr. turner. chief curry. mr. belin. now where were you when you first heard any signs of anything out of the ordinary? mr. turner. we were on stemmons freeway. i don't recall approximately, at the oak lawn exit, or somewhere right in that vicinity. mr. belin. what did you hear on the police radio? mr. turner. well, i heard some conversation, either sounded like curry's voice or sheriff decker's voice, who was riding in the car with him. i believe it said, sounded like sheriff decker said notify all men to get over there and cover off the area around this building there until some investigators could get there. mr. belin. did you return to the texas school book depository building? mr. turner. well, yes; but i don't believe he mentioned that building. i believe he just mentioned the overpass over the elm street. he said cover off that area around the overpass, i believe. mr. belin. did you see the president's car come by your car? mr. turner. out on the expressway, i did; yes. mr. belin. where was the president's car headed? mr. turner. parkland hospital. mr. belin. what did you do then? mr. turner. we fell in behind it in our car. mr. belin. you went over to parkland hospital? mr. turner. yes, sir. mr. belin. what did you do when you got there? mr. turner. we went up by the exit there and helped sort of control the crowd, and i never did go in. they unloaded the president's car. mr. belin. did you watch them unload the president's car? mr. turner. off and on, i mean, i was more or less mingling in the crowd, trying to restrain the crowd where they could have room to work. mr. belin. did you see how they unloaded governor connally? mr. turner. no, sir; i didn't. mr. belin. did you see how they unloaded the president? mr. turner. no, sir. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. turner. we got back in chief lumpkin's car along with him, and we come back to the texas school book depository building. mr. belin. when did you get back there, approximately? mr. turner. in relation to time, i don't know. but it was just about a short while. i would say, i don't know, or minutes after it happened. we just started out there in a matter of minutes, and we drove code , with the sirens on, and we came back down here. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. turner. chief lumpkin told me to search out a caboose to a train that was parked at the rear of the building. i went in and searched this boxcar out, and come out of there, and by that time they were already in the building, i supposed. i went in the building and that is when i ran across this mr. campbell and truly. mr. belin. now let me ask you this. did you find anything in the boxcar? mr. turner. no, sir. mr. belin. did you see any railroad employee over there? mr. turner. at the boxcar? mr. belin. or in this area, did you talk to anybody? mr. turner. no sir; this was a caboose of a boxcar, that is what it was, sitting there. mr. belin. did you talk to anyone over there that indicated where they heard the shots came from? mr. turner. talked to these people from the school book depository. mr. belin. prior to the time you got to the school book depository, did you talk to anyone? mr. turner. no, sir. mr. belin. all right, now, you say you saw mr. campbell and mr. truly, and who else? mr. turner. mr. molina. mr. belin. they all worked there? mr. turner. yes; they said they did. mr. belin. where did you talk to them? mr. turner. down on the first floor of this building, back sort of a warehouse like. mr. belin. did they say where they heard the shots come from? mr. turner. yes, sir; they did. mr. belin. what did they say? mr. turner. well, i believe they said they thought they all came from west of the building at that time. mr. belin. did they say where they were when they heard the shots, when the shots came? mr. turner. well, according to my notes, mr. truly stated that he was at the front of the store watching the parade in the front of the building, and mr. campbell had walked across the street, and this joe molina, i don't have on here where he was. he just said he worked in the warehouse. mr. belin. that is all your notes show on him? mr. turner. said they all thought the sound came from west of their building. mr. belin. can i take a look at that book of yours? it might cut down the questioning? mr. turner. yes; this is more or less some notes. mr. belin. you are handing me kind of a spiral notebook that you have. i notice here, well, let me ask you this. then what did you do after that? mr. turner. about that time there was a deputy sheriff, mr. sweatt, come over and told me they sent a witness over to their office, which was located diagonally across the street, and said this witness might be able to shed light on the description of a suspect, so i went to the sheriff's office and i stayed there for quite some spell talking to witnesses. mr. belin. who did you talk to? mr. turner. several of them. i would have to look up their names. mr. belin. well, looking at your index in your little notebook, i see you have something about an arnold rowland there? mr. turner. yes; i talked to rowland. mr. belin. what do your notes say you talked to rowland about? what did rowland say, according to your notes? mr. turner. said he was standing. i don't know whether he was with his wife or his girl friend, i don't know what connection, they were standing on houston between main and elm, approximately minutes before the president arrived. they saw a man standing back in the background of an open window two floors from the top. mr. belin. two floors from the top? mr. turner. that is what he said. the man appeared to have a rifle with scope on it in his hand and he noticed another thing that he said about this, he said the man was standing on the west side of the building. mr. belin. the west side of the south side of the building? mr. turner. yes. mr. belin. what else did he say? mr. turner. he thought it was a security man, is the reason that he made no issue of it. i am unable to give a description except a white man, and that he heard three shots. mr. belin. did he say how much of the man he saw, or not; do you remember? mr. turner. no, sir; i don't remember any further. there was a court reporter there and so forth, and they took an affidavit of him at the time. mr. belin. did he say anything about seeing any other man in the window in any other windows there? mr. turner. not that i recall. mr. belin. all right, did you interview any ronald fischer or a robert edwards? mr. turner. i got a ronald fischer and bob edwards. mr. belin. what do you have about them? mr. turner. they said they saw a white man in his twenties standing on the fifth floor of the book building in the east window. had on an open-necked sports shirt and had sandy-colored hair. and said the hair was longer than a crewcut. mr. belin. what else did they say? mr. turner. that is all the notes i have. like i said, there was an affidavit taken from them at the time, too. mr. belin. now this is with regards to the--do you have this under fischer or under edwards, or both? mr. turner. under both. they were more or less together at the time. mr. belin. did they think they could identify the man? mr. turner. thought they said they could identify him. mr. belin. did you ever take pictures out for either one of them? mr. turner. yes; i have. mr. belin. which one? mr. turner. the one that lives in mesquite, whichever one that is. mr. belin. that is ronald fischer? mr. turner. whatever that is. mr. belin. what did fischer say about the pictures? mr. turner. he said it could be the man he saw, but he couldn't remember positive. mr. belin. did he give you any more identification of the man? mr. turner. none other than that. mr. belin. you were at the sheriff's office then and took part in the taking of various affidavits there? mr. turner. i questioned witnesses. i didn't take any of the affidavits, but they did send court reporters and secretaries up and affidavits was taken from them. mr. belin. do you remember, you yourself, questioning a howard leslie brennan or anyone questioning a brennan? mr. turner. brennan, let me check. i've got a charles f. brehan [spelling] b-r-e-h-a-n, that i talked to. mr. belin. no; that is not the one. mr. turner. probably i didn't. that was probably the name i was thinking of when you said brennan. mr. belin. all right, while you were there, did you learn that an officer had been shot? mr. turner. i did; yes, sir. mr. belin. then what happened? mr. turner. well, i stayed down there for quite some time talking to these witnesses, and then i went back over to the school book depository building to check and see if my partner was there. mr. senkel hadn't seen him in quite a while and didn't locate him. there was several officers over there, special service, still had the building secured, and you want this mentioned that coat business in there? mr. belin. yes. mr. turner. the coat has no bearing on the case. mr. belin. you mean in your statement i have with reference to a coat being found on industrial street? mr. turner. yes, sir; as far as i know, that still has no bearing in the case, but it was placed in the property room. mr. belin. you just found a coat somewhere? mr. turner. well, a mr. kaminski from the police department handed me a coat when i went back over to the building, with a note of who had turned it into him, where it was found, and he had no idea whether it had any bearing on the case or not. mr. belin. have you investigated? mr. turner. as far as i know, the coat does not have any bearing on the case. mr. belin. all right, go ahead. mr. turner. after i left there, i went back to the sheriff's office and i talked to the one lieutenant in our office then and found out that mr. senkel had gone back to our office, so he in turn, he told me i might as well come on up there, looked like things, about all i could do down there. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. turner. i went to the city hall. mr. belin. what did you do there? mr. turner. well, when i walked in there, one of the lieutenants was talking about finding a justice of the peace to obtain a search warrant, and i told him that i just left the sheriff's office and one of the j.p.'s was down there when i left, david johnston, and so he said, "well, see if you can get ahold of him and get a warrant for this address on north beckley and carry the warrant over there." mr. belin. would that have been north beckley? mr. turner. yes, sir; i am sure it is. i have to look in the paper here a minute; north beckley. mr. belin. all right, what did you do there? mr. turner. well, detective moore was in the office. he and i got a car and drove down by the, back down to the sheriff's office, and when we got there, judge johnston and one of the assistant district attorneys, bill alexander, was standing on the front steps waiting for us, because someone got ahold of him by phone and told them i was on the way. mr. belin. was that detective h. m. moore? mr. turner. yes, sir. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. turner. we went on over, the four of us--me, detective moore, judge johnston, and mr. alexander--went over to north beckley where this lee oswald had a room in it. mr. belin. you went over there on november ? mr. turner. yes, sir. mr. belin. now according to one record that i have of a search warrant, it is dated november . do you have any particular knowledge whether the search warrant was actually dated november or november ? mr. turner. i don't remember the date on it, but i know he had the warrant made out, and handed it to me when i got in the car, but i don't remember the date on the warrant. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. turner. we looked through this room and picked up everything in it that didn't belong with the house, you know. mr. belin. where was w. e. potts and bill senkel? mr. turner. they were along with lieutenant cunningham and the three were there when we got there. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. turner. we picked up all the articles and brought them to the homicide and robbery office of the city hall. mr. belin. you made out an inventory of them there? mr. turner. yes, sir. mr. belin. i am handing you what has been marked "moore deposition exhibit ," and ask you to state whether this appears to be a copy of an inventory that you made? mr. turner. i think all of this---- mr. belin. just a second---- mr. turner. we got stuff out of two or three different places. here is the typed-up list of the copies that i made. mr. belin. you made a typed-up list of things that you picked up at north beckley? mr. turner. yes, sir. mr. belin. are these the things that you picked up? mr. turner. that is the same that was picked up there. mr. belin. was this a complete list, or might there have been other things? mr. turner. there is some articles of clothing that is not listed. it is just listed as miscellaneous clothing and so forth. mr. belin. this is your original? mr. turner. no, sir; that is a carbon. mr. belin. this is a carbon? who typed the carbon? mr. turner. well, the carbon was made at the time the original was made by one of the secretaries in the--our office. mr. belin. who dictated it? mr. turner. well, that is a different thing. she took it out of this notebook, and mr. moore wrote part of it in the notebook and i wrote part. mr. belin. in other words, these are copies [of] notebooks that you had? mr. turner. yes, sir. mr. belin. well, let's mark this as an exhibit. let's mark this as "turner deposition exhibit ," which i will offer to introduce in evidence. do you need this back? mr. turner. no; i am sure we have other copies. that is a copy i had in my locker. i mean, that is probably the same. they might have made a more detailed description of it down at the property room. mr. belin. all right, what did you do after you left the beckley residence? did you talk to the landlady there at all? or not? mr. turner. talked to her, but i can't recall her name. there was a mrs. johnson and mr. johnson and earlene roberts. there were two or three people there. mr. belin. do you remember anything that anyone said at that time? mr. turner. no, sir; i don't. mr. potts and senkel and cunningham were waiting for us to bring the warrant, so they had been talking to them before we did. mr. belin. do you remember finding a leather gun holster? mr. turner. yes, sir; there was a holster found. mr. belin. now, what did you do after that? mr. turner. after we brought this stuff to the office? mr. belin. yes. mr. turner. well, by that time the phones and everything else were going wild. i answered phones around there for quite a while. i believe i did take an affidavit from a sister of the boy that worked with oswald at the texas school book depository, the boy that he rode to work with that morning. mr. belin. what do you do when you take an affidavit, by the way? how do you go about doing it? mr. turner. well, i just take the--let them tell the story, and write it down in longhand, and get the secretary to type it up, and let them sign it in front of a notary. mr. belin. do you have an affidavit in front of you or your notes from this linnie mae randle, this sister of the boy that drove him to work, or not? mr. turner. no, sir. mr. belin. do you throw those out once the affidavit is typed up? mr. turner. i don't believe they ever gave it back to us. i guess the secretary, she might have filed it somewhere. mr. belin. anything else you did that day? mr. turner. that is the only affidavit i can remember taking in this thing. mr. belin. all right, what happened? anything else on that day that you think is important insofar as the assassination is concerned? mr. turner. i don't think of anything. let me look through these notes here and see about where we are. as far as that day goes, that is about it. mr. belin. let me ask you this. do you remember when you were out at north beckley finding a passport at all? does that ring a bell with you? mr. turner. i think there was a passport, maybe one or two. mr. belin. do you remember whether or not there was any kind of vaccination card, one of those yellow health organization vaccination cards which bears the name of lee oswald? do you remember whether there was any of those there or not? mr. turner. i don't recall that. mr. belin. you don't remember whether there was or was not? mr. turner. i don't remember whether there was or was not; no, sir. mr. belin. what about the next day, saturday, november ? mr. turner. just nothing of importance that i did that day, that i know of, except i came to work, like i said. they had to put in four or five extra phones up there, and it kept lots of us busy answering the phone. mr. belin. at that time did you ever get involved in any interrogation sessions with oswald? mr. turner. no, sir; i never was. mr. belin. did you ever get involved in any showups of oswald? mr. turner. no, sir. i think i might have got right in on the tail end of one down there, but i don't recall the details. i think i walked in just as they were winding up on him one night. mr. belin. did you receive any phone calls about anyone that tried to identify the rifle as to where it might have been purchased from? mr. turner. yes, sir; i did. on one of the phone calls, but i don't know the man's name that called, but he did state that he had seen a picture. this was probably saturday, the next day. he stated that he had seen this picture somewhere of this rifle, that was found, and he stated this about this klein's sporting goods of chicago had an exact replica in a magazine that he had seen, and i passed that along to captain fritz, and he already had the information. mr. belin. anything--any other information come in on saturday of any importance? mr. turner. not that i can recall. mr. belin. all right; were you in the police station sunday morning, november ? mr. turner. no, sir. mr. belin. when did you come to the police station? mr. turner. i came in from church, approximately, shortly after , and my mother-in-law or somebody told me they had seen the incident happen, or had then heard the incident, or told me about the incident, so i called the office and they said come on to work, so i probably got to work about o'clock or so. mr. belin. then you stayed down there on sunday? mr. turner. yes, sir; until in the night. mr. belin. anyone call in on sunday about anything of importance with regard to the assassination? mr. turner. yes, sir. i mean, i don't know whether it was in regard to the assassination. they called in about there was supposed to be a man at irving that sighted in a rifle out there. mr. belin. do you know who it was that called in? mr. turner. yes, sir; it was mr. ray johns, channel news. mr. belin. what did he say? mr. turner. he stated he had received an anonymous call stating oswald had the rifle sighted in on thursday, november , at a gunshop at or irving boulevard. mr. belin. what did you do then? mr. turner. well, i checked the crisscross and phone book and found there was an irving sports shop at east irving boulevard. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. turner. found a man that owned it, woody greener, and had a man, dial ryder, that worked for him. mr. belin. did you talk with either or both of them? mr. turner. yes; i did. i don't remember that particular time, but i have talked with both of them. mr. belin. do you remember if it was on that day or a subsequent day? mr. turner. i don't remember whether it was that day or the next day, i sure don't. mr. belin. who did you talk to? did you talk to greener? mr. turner. i talked to mr. greener first. mr. belin. did you later talk to ryder or not? mr. turner. yes, sir; i have talked to ryder. mr. belin. what did greener say? mr. turner. well, they said that they had all seen pictures of oswald in the paper, and neither of them could recall doing anything--any work for the man in the shop. mr. belin. what else did he say, if anything? mr. turner. he stated he would check his files and records for names, and would call back if he found anything and he was giving us a reason there, from looking at the photos in the picture, why they hadn't worked on it. mr. belin. what reason did he give you? mr. turner. well, in the photos it showed that the screws that hold the clamp that holds the scope on the rifle looked like they were on top of the gun, and he thinks, he says that neither of them have ever seen a gun where the scope was mounted with the screws on top. mr. belin. were they ever talked to again about the thing? mr. turner. yes. mr. belin. about when was that? mr. turner. about november . mr. belin. who did you talk to? mr. turner. mr. greener. mr. belin. what did he say? mr. turner. he stated that they found a work ticket in the rear of the shop. said this ticket had no date on it, but the best they could figure out, his--this work probably came in around november the th or november the th of . mr. belin. well, what else did he say about the work ticket that would call attention to it? mr. turner. he said the ticket had the name oswald on it, written on it, and the word "drill and tap, $ . , and bore sighting, $ . ." mr. belin. did he say whether or not he could remember anything about this, about the man they did the work for? mr. turner. he stated that he could not; no, sir. mr. belin. did you ever talk to ryder about it, or not? mr. turner. yes, sir; i did. mr. belin. what did ryder say? mr. turner. he couldn't remember either, anything about the man. mr. belin. did you ever show them the gun itself? mr. turner. i didn't; no, sir. mr. belin. do you know whether or not the gun was ever shown to these men? mr. turner. no, sir; i don't. mr. belin. did he say who wrote the ticket? mr. turner. they said that it was ryder's writing, i believe. mr. belin. let me ask you this. did you ever pick up the work ticket on--or try to pick up the work ticket? mr. turner. yes, sir; i tried to. went by mr. greener's house. he said that he had orders from a mr. horton of the fbi to hold this ticket and not let it get away from him. mr. belin. when did you contact greener about this? mr. turner. sir? mr. belin. when did you contact greener about this, or don't you remember? mr. turner. i don't know. mr. belin. do you know what the phrase, "drill and tap," means, or did you discuss this with mr. greener? mr. turner. yes, sir; i did. he explained it to me. mr. belin. what did he say about it? mr. turner. he said the phrase, "drill and tap," as used by a gunsmith means to drill a hole, using a tap to put threads in the hole to attach a scope mount. said that he charged a $ . a hole to bore these holes. said this would mean that the mount on this scope would have three screws in it. mr. belin. let's see, that would be $ . . well, as i understand it, he said that--do you know how many screws the rifle had on the top of it that was found in the school book depository building? mr. turner. no, sir; i don't. i never examined it. mr. belin. but this would indicate three screws on top? mr. turner. according to his charges of a $ . a hole. mr. belin. how many on top? i mean, three screws based on his $ . a screw? mr. turner. a hole. mr. belin. what about the bore sight? what does that mean? mr. turner. the phrase boresight, his description means to attach to a spud to the barrel of the rifle, and then using a sight-alining tool, they attach this spud to this tool and aline the crosshairs, and that is to sight a rifle in. mr. belin. did he indicate to you whether or not he knew of any particular rifle that had three screws on the scope mount? mr. turner. yes, sir; he named two. he said that most mounting for scopes was four screws, but he said there are two or three, the springfield am and the british . he said those two use three screws in their mount. mr. belin. now do you have anywhere in your notes as to whether or not you put down as to how many screws in a mount this rifle found in the school book depository building had? mr. turner. no, sir. mr. belin. all right; did he say whether or not he sold any ammunition for a . caliber italian rifle? mr. turner. he stated he does not sell ammunition for those caliber rifles, . . mr. belin. did he say whether or not he would try and do any further checking to see if he could determine when the order was picked up? mr. turner. yes, sir; he said he would check his sales tickets and see if he could find perhaps by the $ charge approximately what date it might have been picked up. mr. belin. did you ever go back and talk with him later to see whether or not he did this? mr. turner. we did, but he wasn't, as far as i can remember, he wasn't able to do any good. he might have had a lot of charges in that amount or nature or something. mr. belin. any other conversations with him that you recall right now? mr. turner. none that i can recall. mr. belin. what about the other man, mr. ryder? did you ever talk to him? mr. turner. yes, sir; i did. mr. belin. what did he say and what did you say? mr. turner. mr. ryder said that he wrote the work ticket up with the name oswald on it. we showed him a picture of oswald, and he stated that he cannot identify the man as the one who left the rifle with him. mr. belin. did he say that he was sure that oswald's picture was not the man, or did he just say he could not give positive identification one way or the other, if you remember? mr. turner. i don't recall the exact words, but i know he didn't identify him. mr. belin. what else did he say? mr. turner. well, he said that, i believe, that this ticket was written up with a pencil. he said he usually writes with a pen, and he could recall some days in the past month when he had forgotten his pen or something, and he was going to check around and see if he could figure out what day the rifle might have been left there. mr. belin. did he ever do this at all, or not? mr. turner. i don't recall whether he did or not. mr. belin. you don't have another record of your going back and talking to him, do you? mr. turner. no, sir. mr. belin. you don't know if the fbi did? mr. turner. no, sir. mr. belin. did he say whether or not he had ever seen any pictures of the rifle? mr. turner. said he had seen pictures of it, yes, sir; probably in the paper. mr. belin. did he say whether or not those pictures enabled him to determine that he had or had not worked on it? mr. turner. he said from the pictures he had seen of it, he did not think that he was working on it. mr. belin. why not? mr. turner. he thinks from the photos that the scope mounting had only two screws in it, and he states that they charged for three on this ticket, and said that he also thinks that he would remember a cheap scope like was attached to this rifle, and would have tried to sell the man another one, and would remember that. mr. belin. anything else about him? mr. turner. no, sir. mr. belin. all right, now, i believe you said you took a picture of oswald out to this ronald fischer that lived in mesquite, tex.? mr. turner. yes, sir. mr. belin. do you remember anything else that fischer might have said about this? mr. turner. no, sir; only that he said the photos of oswald looked like the man he saw at the window that shot, and he stated he saw this man a minute or less before the motorcade arrived, and could not say definitely this was the man. he said it looked like him. mr. belin. detective turner, is there anything else you can think of that in any way bears upon the assassination of the president of the investigation you made that we haven't discussed here? mr. turner. no, sir. mr. belin. you have been sitting here while i put in a call to washington to determine whether or not the rifle had two or three holes for screws for the mounting of the scope, and just so that your curiosity will be relieved, i will say that i have a report from washington that there are only two holes for mounting the scope on this particular rifle. well, if you have nothing further, we want to thank you very much for all the cooperation in coming down here. one other thing on the record. you have the opportunity to read this and sign it before it goes to washington, or you can just waive the signature and have the court reporter ship it. do you have any preference or not? mr. turner. what have they been doing? mr. belin. well, most of the officers have been saying they would as soon read it and sign it, but you can do it either way. mr. turner. i suppose it is all right to just let it go. mr. belin. you want to waive it? mr. turner. well. testimony of guy f. rose the testimony of guy f. rose was taken at p.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. joseph a. ball, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. ball. will you please hold up your right hand to be sworn? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before the commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. rose. i do. mr. ball. will you state your name, now, please? mr. rose. g. f. rose, hall road, seagoville. mr. ball. what is your business? mr. rose. i am a police officer, a detective assigned to the homicide and robbery bureau. mr. ball. how long have you been with the dallas police department? mr. rose. ten years. mr. ball. where were you born? mr. rose. i was born in grannis, ark. mr. ball. and where did you go to school? mr. rose. i finished high school in grand prairie high school and attended grade school at shady grove independent school district between irving and grand prairie. mr. ball. and what have you done since then? mr. rose. well, after i finished high school i went to work for a construction company as a timekeeper and worked until i was . then i went on the police department. mr. ball. you have been on the police department ever since you were years old? mr. rose. yes, sir. mr. ball. that was what year? mr. rose. it was in . mr. ball. on the d of november , were you on duty? mr. rose. i went on duty shortly after the assassination. at the time of the assassination i was not on duty. mr. ball. did somebody call you and ask you to come on duty? mr. rose. no; i came in just as soon as i heard of the shooting--i came on to work. mr. ball. where did you go to work? mr. rose. i reported to the homicide office. it's room at the city hall. mr. ball. where did you go then? mr. rose. there were some people in the office from the book depository and we talked to a few of them and then in just a few minutes they brought in lee oswald and i talked to him for a few minutes. mr. ball. what did you say to him or did he say to you? mr. rose. well, the first thing i asked him was what his name was and he told me it was hidell. mr. ball. did he tell you it was hidell? mr. rose. yes; he did. mr. ball. he didn't tell you it was oswald? mr. rose. no; he didn't, not right then--he did later. in a minute--i found two cards--i found a card that said "a. hidell." and i found another card that said "lee oswald" on it, and i asked him which of the two was his correct name. he wouldn't tell me at the time, he just said, "you find out." and then in just a few minutes captain fritz came in and he told me to get two men and go to irving and search his house. mr. ball. now, when he first came in there--you said that he said his name was "hidell"? mr. rose. yes. mr. ball. was that before you saw the two cards? mr. rose. yes; it was. mr. ball. before you saw the cards? mr. rose. yes; it was. mr. ball. did he give you his first name? mr. rose. he just said "hidell"; i remember he just gave me the last name of "hidell". mr. ball. and then you found two or three cards on him? mr. rose. yes; we did. mr. ball. did you search him? mr. rose. he had already been searched and someone had his billfold. i don't know whether it was the patrolman who brought him in that had it or not. mr. ball. and the contents of the billfold supposedly were before you? mr. rose. yes. mr. ball. were you sitting down? mr. rose. no; i was standing in the interrogation room. mr. ball. where was he--was he standing too? mr. rose. no; he was sitting in the chair. mr. ball. was he handcuffed? mr. rose. yes; he was. mr. ball. were the handcuffs behind or in front of him? mr. rose. i believe they were behind him--i don't remember for sure. mr. ball. who else was present at that time? mr. rose. detective stovall, he was my partner, and i believe both uniformed men were present--two of the uniformed men were present. mr. ball. the ones who brought him in? mr. rose. yes. mr. ball. do you know their names? mr. rose. i don't remember--i did see mcdonald and i did talk to him, but i don't remember whether he was the one that was standing right there at the time or not. mr. ball. after you saw the cards, you asked him which one was his true name? mr. rose. yes; i did. mr. ball. what did he say? mr. rose. he said, "you find out." mr. ball. did you ask him what his address was? mr. rose. yes; but from there, he wouldn't tell me--he just said, "you just find out." mr. ball. now, did anybody ever tell you that his address was north beckley? mr. rose. later they did--right then they didn't; no, sir. mr. ball. you didn't know it at that time? mr. rose. no, sir; i didn't. mr. ball. how soon after that did you go out to irving--to the irving street address? mr. rose. in just a few minutes captain fritz came in and he instructed me to get two men and go to irving to the ruth paine home and so i went immediately. mr. ball. did he tell you "the ruth paine home," or did he tell you to go to a certain address in irving? mr. rose. i believe he gave me the address. mr. ball. what was the address? mr. rose. west fifth in irving. mr. ball. how many men went out there? mr. rose. there was me, and detective adamcik and detective stovall, and on the way, we radioed and asked for a county unit to meet us, and we were met by detectives harry weatherford, e. w. walthers, and j. l. oxford, detectives for the county cid--we waited about minutes and they came and met us. mr. ball. did you have a search warrant? mr. rose. no; we didn't. mr. ball. how did you get in the house? mr. rose. we walked up to the house, me and stovall and one of the county officers, and i could hear the tv was playing, and i could see the door was standing open--the front door was--and i could see two people sitting inside the living room on the couch, and just as soon as we walked up on the porch, ruth paine came to the door. she apparently recognized us--she said, "i've been expecting you all," and we identified ourselves, and she said, "well, i've been expecting you to come out. come right on in." mr. ball. did she say why she had been expecting you? mr. rose. she said, "just as soon as i heard where the shooting happened, i knew there would be someone out." mr. ball. you took part in the search, didn't you? mr. rose. yes; i did. mr. ball. what part did you take? mr. rose. well, i was the senior detective that was there, and so i was sort of the spokesman for the group, i suppose, and stovall went into the bedroom of marina oswald--marina oswald's bedroom, and i don't remember where adamcik went first, but i talked with ruth paine a few minutes and she told me that marina was there and that she was lee oswald's wife and that she was a citizen of russia, and so i called captain fritz on the phone and told him what i had found out there and asked him if there was any special instructions, and he said, "well, ask her about her husband, ask her if her husband has a rifle." i turned and asked marina, but she didn't seem to understand. she said she couldn't understand, so ruth paine spoke in russian to her and ruth paine also interpreted for me, and she said that marina said--first she said marina said "no," and then in a minute marina said, "yes, he does have." so, then i talked to captain fritz for a moment and hung up the phone and i asked marina if she would show me where his rifle was and ruth paine interpreted and marina pointed to the garage and she took me to the garage and she pointed to a blanket that was rolled up and laying on the floor near the wall of the garage and ruth paine said, "says that that's where his rifle is." well, at the time i couldn't tell whether there was one in there or not. it appeared to be--it was in sort of an outline of a rifle. mr. ball. you mean the blanket had the outline of a rifle? mr. rose. yes; it did. mr. ball. was it tied at one end? mr. rose. yes, sir; it was sort of rolled up, but it was flattened out from laying down and tied near the middle. i would say, with a cord and so i went on and picked the blanket up, but it was empty--it didn't have the rifle in it. mr. ball. you brought that in? mr. rose. yes; i did. mr. ball. what else did you see? mr. rose. i didn't make very much of a search of the garage at that time. i came back into the house and talked with marina some more and talked with ruth paine some and was busy trying to make arrangements to get someone to come down and take care of ruth paine's children and marina's children so i could bring them to the city hall and i did assist stovall and adamcik in this search, briefly--i didn't do too much. mr. ball. could i see the report there, please? mr. rose. yes--i wrote that report shortly after the th--i believe it was around the th, but i don't remember for sure what date i wrote it. i wrote it from some notes that i had taken. mr. ball. now, after you were there for a little while, did michael paine come in? mr. rose. yes; we had only been there a few minutes and we were in plain cars, so i don't know whether he knew we were there. he didn't appear to know we were there, and he walked up the sidewalk and just walked in the door without knocking, and i was standing just around the corner talking to ruth paine and she was standing in his view and he didn't see any of the officers--we were all out of sight at that time, and he walked in and he said, "i came to help you. just as soon as i heard where it happened, i knew you would need some help." then he apparently saw us and then he spoke to us. mr. ball. did marina oswald tell you--point to the blanket and say something? mr. rose. she pointed to the blanket and said something in russian and ruth paine was standing right there beside her and she interpreted for me--she said, "that's where her husband's rifle is." mr. ball. about that time, while you were there, did a mrs. linnie randle come over to you? mr. rose. she might have come up to the yard and i didn't talk with her--i saw her out in the yard--i didn't talk to her. mr. ball. you didn't talk to her at all? mr. rose. at that time i didn't--i did later. mr. ball. you brought ruth paine and marina down to the police department, did you? mr. rose. yes; we took ruth paine and marina and marina's two children in our car and also the blanket--i carried it. mr. ball. and the rest of that day you spent in inquiring for and looking around for wesley frazier? mr. rose. well, we came on back to the city hall and we took ruth paine and michael paine and marina oswald to the homicide office, but it was so crowded that we transferred them to the forgery bureau office next door, and then someone came over and i believe it was the detective senkel, to take affidavits from them and i immediately started trying to locate wesley frazier. we were told that he would be at parkland hospital, but we checked through parkland and there was no fraziers there and i started a check of the clinics and the doctors' offices in irving, and i located through one of the nurses, i believe, or talked to someone on the phone there that mr. frazier was in the hospital there at the irving clinic, so i called detective mccabe in irving and told him that we wanted to talk with wesley frazier and that we understood that wesley was the one that had brought lee oswald to work that morning. mr. ball. you took a statement from frazier that day? mr. rose. yes; we got frazier and brought him in and took a written affidavit off of him. mr. ball. and you also talked to linnie randle that night? mr. rose. yes; i brought her in, too. mr. ball. did you talk to lee oswald any more during that day except the time you mentioned? mr. rose. no, sir; i didn't. mr. ball. were you present at any time that anyone questioned him? mr. rose. not that day. i was the next day, on saturday--i was present when captain fritz talked to him. mr. ball. on saturday morning you went out to irving again? mr. rose. yes, sir; i did. mr. ball. at this time you had a search warrant? mr. rose. yes, sir; i did. mr. ball. what did you search on this day? mr. rose. we made a search of the garage, mainly, on this day since quite a bit of lee oswald's property was in the garage. mr. ball. what did you find there? mr. rose. well, i found two sea bags, three suitcases, and two cardboard boxes and all of them contained numerous items of property of oswald. mr. ball. did you find some pictures? mr. rose. yes; i found two negatives first that showed lee oswald holding a rifle in his hand, wearing a pistol at his hip, and right with those negatives i found a developed picture--i don't know what you call it, but anyway a picture that had been developed from the negative of him holding this rifle, and detective mccabe was standing there and he found the other picture--of oswald holding the rifle. mr. ball. what color were the sea bags? mr. rose. i believe they were kind of an off white--i would call them--more of a greyish-white. mr. ball. what about the suitcases? mr. rose. i don't remember the color of those suitcases. i know one of them was real worn. mr. ball. but you brought that property back here into town, did you? mr. rose. yes; we did. mr. ball. now, you say you sat in on the interrogation of oswald later that day? mr. rose. on saturday evening--that saturday evening. mr. ball. what time? mr. rose. i don't remember--it was late--it seemed like it was around or o'clock, i don't remember. mr. ball. who was present? mr. rose. well, captain fritz, detective sims, and myself--i don't remember--there was an fbi agent and a secret service agent there, but i don't remember their names. mr. ball. do you remember what was said? mr. rose. do i remember what was said? mr. ball. that this took place in captain fritz' office? mr. rose. in captain fritz' office--yes. well, the occasion was--i got back to the office and i took this small picture of oswald holding the rifle, and left the rest of them with the captain and i took one up to the i.d. bureau and had them to make me an enlargement of it, and they made an almost " by " enlargement of this picture and i brought it back to the captain and oswald was brought in and the captain showed him this picture, and oswald apparently got pretty upset when he saw the picture and at first he said, "well, that's just a fake, because somebody has superimposed my face on that picture." then, the captain said, "well, is that your face on the picture?" and he said, "i won't even admit that. that is not even my face." i remember that part of it distinctly. i remember him volunteering some information about when he was in russia. mr. ball. what did he say? mr. rose. well, he talked about how life was better for the colored people in russia than it was in the united states. i don't remember--he just rambled on--he liked to talk about that, but he wouldn't talk about anything to do with the assassination or the killing of tippit. mr. ball. did you ever hear anybody accuse him of assassinating the president? mr. rose. no, sir; i don't believe i did. mr. ball. did you ever hear anybody accuse him of killing tippit? mr. rose. no; i don't believe so. some mention might have been made of the assassination but i don't believe it was as an accusation to him. that was the only interrogation i sat in on. mr. ball. that was the only one you sat in on? mr. rose. yes, sir. mr. ball. do you remember anything else that was said in that interrogation? mr. rose. no, sir; that's about all i can remember. there was more said, but i don't remember what it was. mr. ball. did you take part in any of the search of the premises? mr. rose. let's, let's see--that was saturday, and then sunday, immediately after oswald was shot, i reported for duty and i was supposed to be off and i reported on as soon as as he was shot and captain fritz told me to get a search warrant and go out to jack ruby's apartment and search it and i did. mr. ball. i believe those are all the questions i have to ask you, mr. rose, and this will be written up and submitted to you for your signature, if you want to read it and sign it, or if you want to, you can waive your signature--just as you wish. what do you prefer? mr. rose. well, i don't know--will it be later? mr. ball. a couple of weeks. mr. rose. well, if she will just call me, i will drop by anytime. mr. ball. okay, that will be fine. we will do this. thanks very much. mr. rose. let's see, there was something else i was going to tell you now, i wanted to mention--we did run wesley frazier on the polygraph, did you know that? mr. ball. i know you did--we know about that. mr. rose. yes. mr. ball. thanks. testimony of w. e. perry the testimony of w. e. perry was taken at : a.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. joseph a. ball, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. ball. will you stand up and be sworn. do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. perry. yes. mr. ball. state your name, please. mr. perry. w. e. perry. mr. ball. what is your occupation? what is your address? mr. perry. overlook. mr. ball. and your occupation? mr. perry. police officer. mr. ball. can you tell me something about yourself? where you were born and where you were raised? mr. perry. i was born and raised right here in dallas. mr. ball. where did you go to school? mr. perry. went to school here in dallas and forest high school. mr. ball. and what did you do after you got out of school? mr. perry. well, i worked for the phone company a little while and went in business with my dad in the furniture business, and then i went on to the police department. been there about years. mr. ball. now, with the police department, what was your occupation in november of ? mr. perry. i was with the vice and special services bureau. mr. ball. on november , , were you on duty in the afternoon? mr. perry. yes, sir. mr. ball. in the vice bureau---- mr. perry. yes. mr. ball. squadroom? mr. perry. yes, sir. mr. ball. did you take part in a showup? mr. perry. yes; i did. mr. ball. what time? mr. perry. approximately : or---- mr. ball. first one? mr. perry. yes. mr. ball. did you take part in another showup? mr. perry. yes, sir. mr. ball. what time? mr. perry. : . mr. ball. take part in any other showups? mr. perry. no, sir. mr. ball. had you ever taken part in a showup before? mr. perry. not that i recall. mr. ball. off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. ball. back on the record. had you ever heard of officers taking part in showups before in your department? mr. perry. yes, sir. mr. ball. but, you hadn't yourself? mr. perry. i hadn't myself; no, sir. mr. ball. had you ever seen a showup in which officers took part? mr. perry. physically, down there? mr. ball. yes. mr. perry. not that i recall, that has been an awful long time ago. i don't recall. mr. ball. now, do you use your--use showups in your business, in the vice squad? mr. perry. i don't think we do; huh-uh, no. never heard of it done. mr. ball. you never have? who talked to you and asked you to take part in the first showup? mr. perry. captain fritz. mr. ball. did he talk to you? mr. perry. no; he talked to somebody else in our bureau. mr. ball. and they relayed the order to you? mr. perry. yes, sir. mr. ball. what did you do? mr. perry. we went on up to--clark and myself went on up to the third floor of the homicide office. mr. ball. was oswald there? mr. perry. yes, sir. mr. ball. who else was there? mr. perry. several different people. captain fritz, a lot of homicide detectives and texas rangers and several other people that i don't know who they were. i gather law enforcement agencies, but it was, the office was---- mr. ball. anything said there? mr. perry. i don't recall. mr. ball. any conversation with oswald? mr. perry. no, sir. mr. ball. and before you went down to the showup, how did you dress? mr. perry. i pulled my coat off and took my tie off and unbuttoned my shirt and put another sports coat on. mr. ball. what color? mr. perry. i believe it was a brown sports coat. mr. ball. then you went down to the showup? mr. perry. went down to the showup. mr. ball. were you handcuffed? mr. perry. yes. mr. ball. to whom? mr. perry. to oswald. mr. ball. which arm, or hand? mr. perry. my left hand to his right hand. mr. ball. what place did you have in the showup? mr. perry. i was no. . mr. ball. and where was oswald? mr. perry. oswald was no. , next to me. mr. ball. who was handcuffed to oswald? mr. perry. clark was handcuffed. mr. ball. that was no. . who was ? mr. perry. ables. mr. ball. did you ever know him before? mr. perry. i had seen--had seen him, but i didn't know him personally. mr. ball. he is a clerk in the jail? mr. perry. yes. mr. ball. policeman ask you any questions? detective ask you any questions? mr. perry. yes, sir; my name and what have you. mr. ball. well, what do you mean, "what have you."? mr. perry. well, occupation. mr. ball. what else? mr. perry. i believe he asked me what kind of car i drove if i'm not mistaken. mr. ball. and what answer did you give him? mr. perry. i gave him all fictitious answers. i don't recall what they were, but they weren't---- mr. ball. you didn't give him your true name? mr. perry. no, sir. mr. ball. or true address? mr. perry. no, sir. mr. ball. or the car you drove? mr. perry. no, sir. mr. ball. ask you what your occupation was? mr. perry. yes, sir; he did, but i don't recall what i said to him. mr. ball. did you tell him you were a police officer? mr. perry. no, sir. mr. ball. gave some---- mr. perry. yes, sir. mr. ball. you took part in the second showup, didn't you? mr. perry. yes, sir. mr. ball. at : , and who called you for that? mr. perry. we were down in the office and they simply called us and said they were ready for us again. wanted us to come back and then we went back up there and---- mr. ball. how were you dressed that time? mr. perry. same way. mr. ball. same coat? mr. perry. same coat. mr. ball. no tie? mr. perry. no tie. mr. ball. give the same answers and same name, occupation and address? mr. perry. best i recall i think they were all fictitious too. mr. ball. did you hear any conversation which took place in the audience? mr. perry. no, sir. mr. ball. do you know who the detective was that asked the questions? mr. perry. sims, i believe. it was sims. mr. ball. do you think that was sims? do you know sims? mr. perry. i do. it was sims; yes, sir. mr. ball. sims was behind with you. he was not in the audience? mr. perry. that's right. mr. ball. according to the record, did he ask questions from the stage? mr. perry. from the stage where we were; yes, sir. mr. ball. where you were. who asked them the first time? do you know? mr. perry. i don't recall. i don't know. mr. ball. but you remember sims did the second one? mr. perry. yes, sir. mr. ball. all right. will you state your height, please? mr. perry. about ' ". mr. ball. what is your weight? mr. perry. about . mr. ball. and your hair? mr. perry. brown. mr. ball. and your eyes? mr. perry. blue. mr. ball. complexion? mr. perry. i guess medium, fair, i guess. mr. ball. fair. that's all. testimony of richard l. clark the testimony of richard l. clark was taken at : a.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. joseph a. ball, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. ball. will you stand up and be sworn, please. do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. clark. i do. mr. ball. will you state your name, please. mr. clark. richard l. clark. mr. ball. what is your address, please, your home address? mr. clark. live oak. mr. ball. what is your business or occupation? mr. clark. detective for the dallas police department. mr. ball. how long have you been in the dallas police department? mr. clark. eleven years. mr. ball. where were you born and raised? mr. clark. dallas, tex. mr. ball. go through school here? mr. clark. went to school in irving. mr. ball. what did you do after that? mr. clark. after i went to school? mr. ball. yes, sir. mr. clark. i went to work. mr. ball. where? let me explain to you that as the commission isn't going to see you personally, they ask us to find out something about you and where you were born and your early education, what you have done most of your life, try to get some idea of who is giving the testimony. mr. clark. worked for merchants retail credit association before the police department. mr. ball. what kind of work do you do on the police department? mr. clark. vice squad detective. mr. ball. on the d of november , you took part in some showup of the police department, did you? mr. clark. yes. mr. ball. how many? mr. clark. two. mr. ball. do you remember what time these showups were? mr. clark. they were in the late afternoon but i don't remember the exact time. mr. ball. well, let's take the first showup of which you were a part. that was in the afternoon of the d of november , wasn't it? mr. clark. yes, sir. mr. ball. who asked you to take part in that showup? mr. clark. captain fritz called down to our office and wanted a couple of men to come up and make a showup with oswald. mr. ball. and where did you go then? mr. clark. went up to the third floor, to captain fritz' office. mr. ball. who went with you? mr. clark. my partner. mr. ball. what is his name? mr. clark. w. e. perry. mr. ball. who was in captain fritz' office when you got there? mr. clark. everybody that was in there. mr. ball. were there a good many people in there? mr. clark. bunch of people in there. mr. ball. was oswald in there? mr. clark. oswald was there. mr. ball. do you know the names of the other people? mr. clark. homicide detectives, texas rangers, fbi. everybody. mr. ball. what was said at that time? mr. clark. they told us just to wait right there, that they wanted us to make a showup with them. mr. ball. did you wait there very long? mr. clark. i'd say we waited in the office maybe minutes or less. mr. ball. anything said while you were there? mr. clark. no, sir. mr. ball. then what did you do? mr. clark. we took off our coats, ties. i put on a little--i believe it was a red vest, went on down to the jail office. mr. ball. where did you get the vest? mr. clark. at homicide. mr. ball. you didn't own a---- mr. clark. no, sir; just hanging loose in there. mr. ball. did you have a white shirt on? mr. clark. yes, sir. mr. ball. cuff links, or---- mr. clark. no, sir; i believe a short-sleeve shirt. mr. ball. short-sleeve shirt? mr. clark. uh-huh. mr. ball. took off your tie? mr. clark. yes, sir. mr. ball. unbuttoned your top button on your shirt? mr. clark. yes, sir. mr. ball. what kind of pants did you have on? mr. clark. brown. mr. ball. with belt? mr. clark. yes, sir. mr. ball. what about your partner, what did he do? mr. clark. he took of his tie and his coat, and i believe they had a sports coat hanging there that he put on. mr. ball. and you went down in the showup room? mr. clark. yes, sir. mr. ball. how many men were in the showup with you? mr. clark. total? mr. ball. yes, sir. mr. clark. well, let's see. myself, my partner, oswald, and another man out of the jail office. mr. ball. what was his name? do you know? was that ables? mr. clark. yes, sir. mr. ball. what was your position in the showup? mr. clark. my right hand was handcuffed to oswald's left hand. mr. ball. your right---- mr. clark. to his left. mr. ball. to his left. then who was next to oswald? mr. clark. and my partner, w. e. perry, was next to oswald. mr. ball. was he handcuffed to oswald? mr. clark. yes, sir; he was. handcuffed his left hand to oswald's right hand. mr. ball. what about mr. ables? mr. clark. mr. ables was standing to the left. mr. ball. was he handcuffed? mr. clark. no, sir. mr. ball. off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. ball. okay. we'll put that on. now, did you have numbers in the showup as such? have a number above each man? mr. clark. yes; i believe we do. mr. ball. now, facing the audience, if you were in the audience, were you numbered from left to right? mr. clark. numbered from left to right. mr. ball. as you faced the audience? mr. clark. yes. mr. ball. and as the audience faces you, it is right to left to the audience? mr. clark. the audience facing us it--well, it would be just opposite. mr. ball. opposite, that's right. now, as you faced the audience, who was the first one to the left? mr. clark. first one to my left? mr. ball. yes. mr. clark. be ables. mr. ball. the no. was ables? mr. clark. no, sir; no. was perry. mr. ball. who was no. ? mr. clark. oswald. mr. ball. who was no. ? mr. clark. myself. mr. ball. who was no. ? mr. clark. ables. mr. ball. and he stood to your right and faced the audience? mr. clark. no, sir; he stood to my left as i was facing the audience. the audience was looking at him, it would be---- mr. ball. he stood on your left? mr. clark. that's right. mr. ball. i see. ables would be the no. man? mr. clark. yes, sir. mr. ball. and you the no. man? mr. clark. yes, sir. mr. ball. oswald was , your partner ? mr. clark. that's right. mr. ball. now, did the detective in this first showup ask you any questions? mr. clark. did the detective ask us? mr. ball. yes, in the showup? mr. clark. no, sir; he didn't ask any questions. mr. ball. now, back to the first showup, did the detective ask you any questions? ask your name and address and occupation? mr. ball. oh, in the showup. mr. ball. in the showup. mr. clark. yes, sir. mr. ball. what did he ask you? mr. clark. he asked me my name. mr. ball. what did you tell him? mr. clark. i don't remember what i told him. mr. ball. did you give him your real name? mr. clark. no, sir. mr. ball. fictitious name? mr. clark. yes, sir. mr. ball. ask you your occupation? mr. clark. asked my occupation. mr. ball. what did you tell him? mr. clark. i don't recall. all of them are fictitious. mr. ball. fictitious? mr. clark. yes, sir. mr. ball. did you hear anything that was said in the audience? mr. clark. no, sir; i couldn't hear anything that was said. mr. ball. lights were on you? mr. clark. lights were on us; yes, sir. mr. ball. and you couldn't see in the audience? mr. clark. no, sir. mr. ball. now, can you refresh your memory from the police report and tell me what time that first showup was? mr. clark. : p.m. mr. ball. p.m.? you were in the second showup also, weren't you? mr. clark. second showup would be : p.m. mr. ball. now, those were the only two showups in which you took part? mr. clark. yes, sir. mr. ball. now, at the : showup, how did you happen to take part in that? mr. clark. i believe some detective, i don't recall who, came up from homicide and told us that there would probably be another showup after the first one, to stick around in the event that there was that they wanted us again. mr. ball. did you still stick around? mr. clark. we went back to our office. mr. ball. to your office? did you get a call? mr. clark. yes, sir; they called us back down there. mr. ball. who called you? mr. clark. i don't recall who called us. mr. ball. where did you go when you got the call? mr. clark. back up to the third floor, homicide office up there. mr. ball. fritz' office? mr. clark. yes. mr. ball. what had you done with the little red vest that you had on in the first showup? mr. clark. i had left--after the showup we went back upstairs to the homicide, and i took it off and left it there. mr. ball. what did you do for the second showup? how did you dress? mr. clark. the same red vest. mr. ball. what about your tie? mr. clark. no tie. mr. ball. what about the coat? mr. clark. no coat. mr. ball. now, on the second showup, where were you standing? mr. clark. same position. mr. ball. same position? mr. clark. yes. mr. ball. facing the audience, who was no. ? mr. clark. facing the audience, perry would have been no. . oswald---- mr. ball. who? mr. clark. perry. mr. ball. oswald was ? mr. clark. oswald, ; myself, ; ables, . mr. ball. and did the detective ask you questions? mr. clark. yes, sir; he asked me questions again. mr. ball. what did he ask you? mr. clark. name, address, occupation. mr. ball. and do you remember what you said? mr. clark. no, sir; they were all fictitious answers. mr. ball. and again, could you hear anything said in the audience? mr. clark. no, sir. mr. ball. what is your height? mr. clark. about ' ". mr. ball. what is your weight? mr. clark. about . mr. ball. and your hair? mr. clark. blond. mr. ball. and your eyes? mr. clark. blue. mr. ball. your complexion is fair? mr. clark. fair. mr. ball. had you ever taken part in a showup before? mr. clark. no. mr. ball. was it unusual to have an officer, from your experience in the police department, was it unusual to have an officer take part in the police department showup? mr. clark. no; it wasn't unusual. mr. ball. you ever helped them before? mr. clark. no, sir. mr. ball. i think that is all. will you give your seat to your partner here, and we'll take his deposition. testimony of don r. ables the testimony of don r. ables was taken at : a.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. joseph a. ball, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. ball. would you stand up and be sworn? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. ables. i do. mr. ball. will you state your name, please. mr. ables. don r. ables. mr. ball. where do you live, mr. ables? mr. ables. kingsley, in garland. mr. ball. what is your business or occupation? mr. ables. jail clerk, dallas police department. mr. ball. how long have you been a jail clerk in the dallas police department? mr. ables. about months. mr. ball. and you are a member of the police department? mr. ables. i am a civilian employee. mr. ball. civilian employee? you are not---- mr. ables. an actual member of the---- mr. ball. an actual member of the department? mr. ables. no, sir. mr. ball. where were you born and raised? mr. ables. i was born and raised in hico, tex. mr. ball. how do you spell that? you probably know it. i don't. mr. ables. [spelling.] h-i-c-o. mr. ball. [spelling.] h-i-c-o. did you go to school there? mr. ables. yes, sir. mr. ball. how far through school? mr. ables. well, through - / grades. mr. ball. then where did you go? mr. ables. joined the navy. mr. ball. how long were you in the navy? mr. ables. seven and a half years. mr. ball. what did you do when you got out of the navy? mr. ables. came straight to dallas and went to work for the police department. mr. ball. that was months ago? mr. ables. yes, sir. mr. ball. you were on duty on november , , were you? mr. ables. yes, sir. mr. ball. in the afternoon? did you take part in a showup? mr. ables. yes, sir. mr. ball. with oswald? mr. ables. yes, sir. mr. ball. how did you happen to take part in the showup? tell me who asked you to, or ordered you to? mr. ables. well, my supervisor in the jail office asked me to. mr. ball. what is his name? mr. ables. sergeant duncan. mr. ball. what did he tell you? mr. ables. told me that they needed a man for the showup and go out there. mr. ball. to where? mr. ables. well, they was all standing in the room, and i just joined in with them. mr. ball. where did you go? mr. ables. went into the showup room. mr. ball. showup room? mr. ables. yes, sir. mr. ball. how were you dressed when you went in the showup room? mr. ables. i was wearing a white shirt and this sweater here [indicating]. mr. ball. you have a gray-knit sweater on? mr. ables. yes. mr. ball. and dark trousers? mr. ables. yes, sir. mr. ball. have a tie on? mr. ables. no. mr. ball. then you were dressed about like you are dressed today, is that right? mr. ables. yes. mr. ball. off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. ball. were you given any instructions when you went into the showup room? mr. ables. no, sir; none whatever. mr. ball. had you ever been in a showup before? mr. ables. no. mr. ball. had you ever heard of officers or employees of the police department being used in a showup before? mr. ables. yes, sir; i have. i hadn't until i went to work for the police department. mr. ball. did you ever afterwards? mr. ables. yes, sir. mr. ball. tell me, it is your conclusion i know, but tell me briefly what you learned as to the practice of the police department of using jail employees or officers in showups? you can generalize. i am not holding you down as to where you learned it. tell me what you learned about it? mr. ables. well, only times that i have heard that--i have never seen a police officer or employee used in a showup but only times i have heard of them being used is when they need somebody in a hurry, or need somebody to do that. well, to more or less look like they belong in a showup or something. mr. ball. somebody that looks like the prisoner who is in the showup? mr. ables. yes, sir. mr. ball. were you aware when you went in there that you would be asked certain questions? mr. ables. no, sir. mr. ball. you were not? when you went in there where did you stand in the line? mr. ables. i was no. . mr. ball. that would be facing the audience? mr. ables. yes. mr. ball. you were aware then that you were no. in this? mr. ables. yes, sir. mr. ball. that would be you were on the left, on the right, facing the audience? mr. ables. be on the left. mr. ball. left facing the audience, is that right? mr. ables. yes. mr. ball. your left? mr. ables. my left. mr. ball. your left, facing the audience. the detective there, did he ask you any questions? mr. ables. yes, sir. mr. ball. what did he ask you? mr. ables. as i recall, he asked me where i was from and what my occupation was and where i went to high school. mr. ball. and where what? mr. ables. where i went to high school. mr. ball. did he ask your name? mr. ables. no, sir; not that i recall. mr. ball. what did you answer? mr. ables. when he asked where i was from i told him dallas. i don't recall what i told him when he asked my occupation. mr. ball. did you tell him you were a jail clerk? mr. ables. no, sir. mr. ball. gave him a fictitious occupation? mr. ables. yes, sir. mr. ball. when he asked you where you went to high school, where did you tell him? mr. ables. i believe i told him dallas. i'm not quite sure on that. mr. ball. do you know the name of the detective that asked you the questions? mr. ables. no, sir; i don't. mr. ball. could you hear anything from the audience? mr. ables. no, sir. mr. ball. did oswald say anything? mr. ables. only time he said anything was when the detective asked him questions. mr. ball. did he answer the questions? mr. ables. yes, sir. mr. ball. did you--you participated in the second showup, too, didn't you? mr. ables. yes, sir. mr. ball. about what time of day? mr. ables. about : . mr. ball. and in that showup, how were you dressed? mr. ables. same way. mr. ball. who asked you to go to that showup? mr. ables. the detective in charge of the showup wanted the same members back in there. mr. ball. do you remember who asked you the questions? mr. ables. i don't remember his name. no, sir. mr. ball. where were you in that showup? what number? mr. ables. same position, no. . mr. ball. who was in that showup? mr ables. it was perry, oswald, clark, and myself. mr. ball. same ones as in the first showup up there? mr. ables. yes, sir. mr. ball. ask you questions? mr. ables. i don't recall on that, on the second showup. i know he did on the first showup. mr. ball. you don't know whether he did or not ask you questions? mr. ables. no, sir; not on the second showup. mr. ball. if he did ask you questions, he--you don't recall what they were? mr. ables. no, sir; or what i said. mr. ball. now, did you take part in another showup? mr. ables. yes, sir. mr ball. when was that? mr. ables. that was later on that evening. i don't recall what time. mr. ball. think it would be around : , or o'clock? mr. ables. could have been; i don't recall. mr. ball. and who was in that showup with you? mr. ables. myself, oswald, and two prisoners. mr. ball. four, again, were there? mr. ables. i believe so. mr. ball. do you know the names of the prisoners? mr ables. no, sir. mr. ball. i have the names here. richard walter borchgardt. do you know whether he was there? mr ables. no, sir. mr. ball. or ellis brazel? mr. ables. no, sir. mr. ball. you don't know him? mr. ables. no. mr. ball. who asked you to take part in this showup? mr. ables. the same detective that was in charge of the showup said that he wanted me back in there. mr. ball. had you been in the jail--had you been waiting in the jail during the time? mr. ables. well; i performed my duties in the jail office. mr. ball. in between the showups? mr. ables. yes, sir. mr. ball. well---- mr. ables. the jail office adjoins the showup room. mr. ball. what were your hours of work that day? mr. ables. : p.m. until : p.m. mr. ball. how were you dressed on the third showup? mr. ables. same way. mr. ball. as you had been on the first and second? mr. ables. yes, sir. mr. ball. were questions asked of you again? mr. ables. i don't believe it was asked on the third showup. i am quite sure there was no questions asked. mr. ball. where were you on the third showup? what number? mr. ables. i was in my same position, no. . mr. ball. where was oswald? mr. ables. he was in his position no. . mr. ball. you were at no time handcuffed to oswald? mr. ables. no, sir. mr. ball. can you tell me your height? mr. ables. about ' ". mr. ball. what is your weight? mr. ables. around or something. mr. ball. and your hair? mr. ables. dark. mr. ball. eyes? mr. ables. brown. mr. ball. complexion? mr. ables. ruddy. mr. ball. i think that is all. you can be excused, too. mr. ables. all right. testimony of daniel gutierrez lujan the testimony of daniel gutierrez lujan was taken at : a.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. joseph a. ball, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. ball. mr. lujan, will you stand up and be sworn, please. hold up your right hand. do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give to this commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. lujan. yes, sir. mr. ball. you were asked to come in here and testify, were you not, in this matter? you were asked to come here? mr. lujan. yes, sir. mr. ball. were you not? mr. lujan. yes, sir. mr. ball. and this commission has been appointed to inquire into the facts and circumstances surrounding the assassination of president kennedy. mr. lujan. yes. mr. ball. and we're informed that you--that there is certain information that might be of some value to the commission in coming to their conclusion, and we have asked you to come in here and testify. are you willing to testify to whatever you know? mr. lujan. yes, sir. mr. ball. this is mr. ely and my name is ball. we are both staff officers with the commission. will you please state your name? mr. lujan. daniel gutierrez lujan. mr. ball. where do you live? mr. lujan. i live lear. mr. ball. dallas? mr. lujan. dallas, tex. mr. ball. what is your occupation? mr. lujan. i work in a meat company, butcher and general help. mr. ball. i see. where were you born? mr. lujan. tyler, tex. mr. ball. did you go to school there? mr. lujan. no; i went to school in san antonio and here in dallas. mr. ball. in dallas? mr. lujan. yes. mr. ball. how far did you go through school? mr. lujan. went to about seventh grade. mr. ball. then did you go to work? mr. lujan. yes. mr. ball. where did you go to work? mr. lujan. palmer & ray. mr. ball. red? mr. lujan. ray & palmer. mr. ball. how long did you work there? mr. lujan. i worked there about - / years. mr. ball. where did you go then? mr. lujan. direct delivery service. mr. ball. direct to where? mr. lujan. delivery service. mr. ball. delivery service? mr. lujan. yes. mr. ball. how long did you work there? mr. lujan. i worked about years. mr. ball. then where did you go? mr. lujan. then had to go to huntsville. i went to huntsville. mr. ball. i didn't hear that. mr. lujan. i went to huntsville penitentiary. mr. ball. you went to huntsville prison? mr. lujan. yes, sir. mr. ball. for what charge? mr. lujan. possession of narcotics. mr. ball. how long were you there? mr. lujan. three years. mr. ball. then where did you go? mr. lujan. i got out and started working at schepps. schepps wholesale groceries. mr. ball. then where did you go? mr. lujan. t. & w. mr. ball. from schepps? you're still there? mr. lujan. no; t. & w. meat co. mr. ball. what? mr. lujan. t. & w. mr. ball. how long did you work for schepps? mr. lujan. three and a half years. mr. ball. then where did you go? mr. lujan. t. & w. mr. ball. i see. november , , you were in jail, weren't you? mr. lujan. yes, sir. mr. ball. what was the charge? mr. lujan. investigation. mr. ball. of what? mr. lujan. investigation of narcotics. mr. ball. of narcotics? mr. lujan. yes. mr. ball. and when were you arrested? mr. lujan. i was arrested the day before that. mr. ball. that is, november -- ? mr. lujan. yes; day before the assassination. mr. ball. before the assassination? mr. lujan. yes. mr. ball. how long did you stay in jail? mr. lujan. until sunday. mr. ball. then did they release you? mr. lujan. yes. mr. ball. you were not charged with anything? mr. lujan. no. mr. ball. now, are they--on friday, november , , did you take part in a showup? mr. lujan. yes. mr. ball. what time of day was it? mr. lujan. it was--i don't recall, about o'clock, probably in the afternoon. mr. ball. was it in the afternoon? mr. lujan. i don't remember. mr. ball. or what? mr. lujan. that was a saturday. mr. ball. saturday, yes. you didn't take part in any showups on friday? mr. lujan. no; just one showup and saturday---- mr. ball. so, saturday you took part in one showup? mr. lujan. yes, sir. mr. ball. who asked you to do that? mr. lujan. an officer went in there and told me to stand up and i stand up and he looked at me and said, "come out." so, i came out, and he went and got three more. mr. ball. got three more? mr. lujan. got three more fellows. mr. ball. three more fellows from jail? mr. lujan. yes, sir. mr. ball. did you know them? mr. lujan. no, sir. mr. ball. had you ever seen them before? mr. lujan. no, sir. mr. ball. have you ever seen them since? mr. lujan. no, sir. mr. ball. what did they look like? mr. lujan. about my size, darker. mr. ball. what is your size? what is your weight? mr. lujan. weigh about . mr. ball. what is your height? mr. lujan. about ' ". mr. ball. and your hair is dark? mr. lujan. black. mr. ball. it is black hair. and your eyes? mr. lujan. brown. mr. ball. and brown, and your complexion? mr. lujan. olive. mr. ball. are you of mexican descent? mr. lujan. yes, sir. mr. ball. you are very fair in color for a mexican. mr. lujan. yes. mr. ball. you have fair skin, haven't you? mr. lujan. yes. mr. ball. what did the other man look like in the showup with you? mr. lujan. oh, about my coloring, and about---- mr. ball. same coloring? mr. lujan. yes. mr. ball. or anywhere near the coloring of oswald? mr. lujan. yes, sir. mr. ball. you saw oswald, didn't you? mr. lujan. yes. mr. ball. where did you stand in the showup? mr. lujan. i was standing next to him, right next to him. mr. ball. right next to him? mr. lujan. yes. mr. ball. were you handcuffed to him? mr. lujan. yes. mr. ball. did you hear him say anything? mr. lujan. he said he wanted a t-shirt. he wanted a t-shirt. mr. ball. off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. ball. on the record. let me see, did i ask you where you were standing in the lineup? mr. lujan. yes, sir. mr. ball. you were what would be---- mr. lujan. right next to him. mr. ball. which was the right, to your right? mr. lujan. no; he was standing right here, handcuffed---- mr. ball. to the right? mr. lujan. yes, sir. mr. ball. you were handcuffed to oswald? mr. lujan. yes, sir. mr. ball. he was complaining, was he? mr. lujan. about having a t-shirt, and wanted a jacket or something. mr. ball. how were you dressed? mr. lujan. i had a jacket and a shirt. mr. ball. what color shirt? mr. lujan. i don't--kind of blue shirt and brown jacket. mr. ball. brown jacket? mr. lujan. yes. mr. ball. any tie on? mr. lujan. no, sir. mr. ball. did the detective ask your name? mr. lujan. yes, sir. mr. ball. and did you tell him your name? mr. lujan. yes, sir. mr. ball. did he ask your occupation? mr. lujan. yes, sir. mr. ball. what did you tell him? mr. lujan. working for s. & f. meat co. mr. ball. ask you anything else? mr. lujan. no, sir; that's all. phone number. mr. ball. phone number and your address? mr. lujan. address, phone number. mr. ball. did he ask the other men any showup questions? mr. lujan. no; just asked my name and address and phone number is all. mr. ball. that's all? did he ask that of oswald? mr. lujan. no, he didn't ask oswald nothing. mr. ball. oswald was doing some talking? mr. lujan. yes. mr. ball. was he shouting loud? mr. lujan. he was shouting. he--he was shouting, said all of us had a shirt on and he had a t-shirt on. he wanted a shirt or something. mr. ball. did the detective say anything to you--or him? mr. lujan. no, sir; just took us out. they didn't have the showup. left about a minute. mr. ball. then you left? mr. lujan. yes; took us out back to the cell. mr. ball. what do you mean they didn't have a showup? they did have you in there and he did ask you questions? mr. lujan. he didn't ask questions. he started--he wanted a shirt, and that's all. mr. ball. they asked you questions, didn't they? mr. lujan. no; they didn't ask nobody questions. mr. ball. oh, he asked you your name and address and asked the others their name and address? mr. lujan. yes, sir. mr. ball. did they ask oswald his name and address? mr. lujan. yes--i mean no, sir. mr. ball. i think that is all, mr. lujan. you can leave. mr. lujan. all right. mr. ball. do you have a picture of yourself? mr. lujan. no, sir; not with me. mr. ball. we have your address where you are working? mr. lujan. south ervay. testimony of c. w. brown the testimony of c. w. brown was taken at : p.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. david w. belin, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. belin. let's get you sworn in here. do you want to stand and raise your right hand? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. brown. i do. mr. belin. would you state your name for the record, please. mr. brown. c. w. brown. mr. belin. where do you live, mr. brown? mr. brown. i live in desoto, tex. mr. belin. is that a suburb of dallas? mr. brown. yes, sir. mr. belin. what is your occupation? mr. brown. police officer. mr. belin. how long have you been a police officer? mr. brown. thirteen years. mr. belin. where are you from originally? mr. brown. dallas, and desoto is my home. mr. belin. you go to school there? mr. brown. yes. mr. belin. how far did you go through school? mr. brown. through high school. mr. belin. did you graduate from the high school in desoto? mr. brown. yes. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. brown. i went into the navy. mr. belin. what did you do in the navy? mr. brown. spent years in the navy during world war ii. mr. belin. how old are you, by the way? mr. brown. thirty-eight. mr. belin. married? mr. brown. no; divorced. mr. belin. you were in the navy for years? mr. brown. yes. mr. belin. what were you doing when you got out of the navy? mr. brown. when i got out of the navy i was employed by the southwestern bell telephone co. mr. belin. what did you do in the navy, by the way? mr. brown. during the war i was a coxswain, as a third class petty officer, in the amphibious branch of the navy. then after the war the peace was signed and i was a radioman until my discharge in . mr. belin. what did you do after the war? mr. brown. i started to work for the southwestern bell telephone co. mr. belin. as what? mr. brown. as an installer. mr. belin. of telephones? mr. brown. yes; i was employed with those people years before i went to work for the city of dallas. mr. belin. is there anything--well, what did you do after that? just go to work for the city of dallas police department? mr. brown. yes; i have been with those people ever since. mr. belin. how long now? mr. brown. thirteen years. mr. belin. what is your position now? mr. brown. i am detective in the homicide and robbery bureau. mr. belin. were you on duty on november , ? mr. brown. yes, sir; i was. mr. belin. what were you doing around noon or so? mr. brown. i was booking a prisoner in at the city hall, with detective j. r. leavelle. mr. belin. when did you first hear of the shooting of the president? mr. brown. it came on our police intercom radio that we have in the office. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. brown. lieutenant wells was in the office and we asked him if that was correct, and he said, "yes, they are on their way to parkland now." so he said, "hurry up and get your prisoner booked and get down there and help them." so we immediately put this subject in jail. mr. belin. yes. mr. brown. and went to the location of the texas school book depository. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. brown. my partner went to the front of the building. i went to the back of the building, and i proceeded up the back stairs to the sixth floor where i met captain fritz and several other officers on the sixth floor. mr. belin. what did you do then? mr. brown. i talked to captain fritz and i asked him what he wanted me to do. he said for me and detective b. l. senkel to gather up--there was about five employees there on the sixth floor, with him, and take them to the city hall and get affidavits from those people, where they were at the time of the shooting. mr. belin. go ahead. mr. brown. where they were at the time of the shooting, and what they were doing, what they heard or saw during this incident. mr. belin. did you go do that then? mr. brown. yes, sir. mr. belin. you left the sixth floor right then? mr. brown. yes; detective senkel and i took these employees to the city hall, and in this group of employees i was talking to a mr. shelley, and got an affidavit from him, when the officers brought in lee harvey oswald. and there were several cameramen following these boys also in front of them, and they opened the door to where i was interviewing; mr. shelley looked up and he said, "well, that is oswald. he works for us. he is one of my boys." mr. belin. what did you do or say? mr. brown. we got up and got out of the room so they could put oswald in there in the room we were using. we just had two small interview rooms there, and i let them put him in there. then as we got outside, of course, the phones were ringing. i answered the phone. it was captain fritz. he was still at the scene on the sixth floor of the school book depository, and i told him that the officers had just brought in a suspect that had shot the police officer, and told him about mr. shelley telling me that this boy that was identified was lee harvey oswald, was also an employee there. he said, "i will be right up in a few minutes." mr. belin. where was captain fritz at this time? mr. brown. he was still at the scene of the shooting, at the texas school book depository. he called from there. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. brown. i told him it looked like we might have the boy that was responsible for that. he said, "okay, i will be up in a few minutes." mr. belin. what did you mean by "that," for the assassination? mr. brown. for the president's assassination. that was my own personal opinion at that time. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. brown. then after the confusion died down a little bit, i got mr. shelley back in another room, the other room that was not occupied at this time, and finished my affidavit with him in regard to what he did, saw, or heard at the time of the assassination. mr. belin. all right, did shelley say anything more about oswald at the time you talked to him? mr. brown. yes; after he mentioned that he was an employee there, that he had been training him--see, i had taken the affidavit from him in regard to what he was doing personally--then after they bring oswald in, he tells me that he was responsible for him and was his own personal supervisor. i immediately got an affidavit from him in conjunction with what his work consisted of, when he was employed, and what he was doing, and what type work he did there. mr. belin. did he indicate where oswald was, at the time of the shooting? mr. brown. no; he did not know where oswald was at the time of the shooting. mr. belin. did he say whether or not he had ever seen oswald subsequent to the time of the shooting before he saw him in the police department? mr. brown. yes; he saw him that morning. he gave him some stuff to do. mr. belin. i mean after the time of the shooting of the president? mr. brown. no; he did not see him. mr. belin. did he say where he, shelley, was? mr. brown. yes; i have it in his affidavit. i don't remember where he said he was. mr. belin. but you took an affidavit from him? mr. brown. yes; i did. i don't have that report with me. mr. belin. we have a copy of it here, but we are going to take the deposition of mr. shelley and we will get it then. mr. brown. all right. mr. belin. now, also, i believe your partner, mr. senkel took an affidavit of bonnie ray williams, is that correct, at that same time? mr. brown. that's right; yes, sir. mr. belin. he was a negro employee? mr. brown. that's right. mr. belin. why did you take his affidavit? mr. brown. he was there employed. he was getting the affidavit from every employee in the building that day, for the reason of where they were, what they saw, and what they heard then during this assassination. mr. belin. anything else that you did on that day of november , that you think involved the assassination in any way, shape, or form? i will ask you this. detective brown, you made a memorandum with regard to your actions on november and november , did you not? mr. brown. yes, sir. mr. belin. do you have any memorandum pertaining to any showups that you participated in? mr. brown. yes; on the d of november i had a showup with my partner, c. n. dhority. this occurred in the basement of the city hall with a mr. mcwatters, who is an employee of the dallas transit co. as a busdriver, who at that time identified lee harvey oswald as no. in the four-man lineup at : p.m. mr. belin. was lee harvey oswald the no. man in that lineup? mr. brown. yes, sir; he was. that is numbering, facing the stage from your left to right. mr. belin. you mean your left, the observers left? mr. brown. yes; the observers left to his right. mr. belin. do your notes, of their own accord, show who else was in the lineup besides lee harvey oswald? mr. brown. no; it does not. mr. belin. where would that information be available? mr. brown. i am not for sure on that, because during the time we were taking an affidavit from mr. mcwatters in regard to him seeing lee harvey oswald on his bus, and also identifying his mark he made on the bus transfer. another officer had this stub, and the other three men in the lineup were for other witnesses to observe. mr. belin. you don't know who else was in the lineup? mr. brown. no; i did not get their names. mr. belin. do you know what mcwatters said when he made his identification? mr. brown. yes. mr. mcwatters said, "yes, he is the one that got on the bus. i gave him a transfer." mr. belin. did you show mr. mcwatters any transfer that had been found in oswald's possession? mr. brown. yes; at the time he was in their office. mr. belin. did you yourself show him that? mr. brown. no; i did not. mr. belin. did you see someone show him that? mr. brown. yes; my partner, detective dhority. mr. belin. what did mcwatters say about that? mr. brown. he said, "that is definitely my mark." mr. belin. how did he seem to identify that? mr. brown. by taking the slip and placing his punch that he carried. he did punch a hole in a blank piece of paper that was lying on the desk, and he held it up for comparison there in our presence. mr. belin. all right, anything else about mcwatters at all that you remember? mr. brown. nothing other than we did take the affidavit and the identification that he did give us of oswald in this lineup. mr. belin. all right, any other showups on that day or any other day? mr. brown. yes, sir. we had showups. mr. belin. who else? mr. brown. about : , or : p.m., that same day my partner, c. n. dhority and myself had two eye witnesses on the officer tippit murder from east th street in our homicide and robbery bureau, and took affidavits from them of what happened that day in front of their home. after their affidavits were taken, we took them to the lineup room where again oswald and three more men were being shown to other witnesses. their names unknown. they were definitely and positively identified by these two. one was mrs. barbara davis and one mrs. barbara jeannette davis. mr. belin. was---- mr. brown. wait a minute, i am sorry. it was mrs. virginia davis, and mrs. barbara davis. mr. belin. were you there when they made their identification? mr. brown. yes; i was. this was : p.m., november . mr. belin. who did they pick? mr. brown. they picked lee harvey oswald again, which was no. , in a four-man lineup. mr. belin. was lee harvey oswald in the four-man lineup? mr. brown. yes. mr. belin. they identified him as the man? mr. brown. definitely, before they got on the stage, before they got them under the numbers, too. mr. belin. they saw him right away, you mean? mr. brown. yes; they definitely picked him instantly. mr. belin. instantly, you have just snapped your hands there? mr. brown. yes. mr. belin. anything else in connection with that identification? mr. brown. that is the only two that i was active insofar as the showups and identification of lee harvey oswald by any of the witnesses on either officer tippit or the president's assassination. mr. belin. all right, is there anything else you had to do with the murder of officer tippit's investigation or the investigation of the assassination that you haven't related to us thus far today? mr. brown. yes. in regard to the officer tippit murder, the same date, november , , lt. t. p. wells received a telephone call from a mrs. barbara davis of east th stating that her sister-in-law of the same address, her name as mrs. virginia davis, had found an additional empty . caliber shell cartridge in her front yard. lieutenant wells ordered my partner, c. n. dhority, and i, to go to the davis residence where mrs. barbara davis handed my partner this spent hull at approximately p.m., that evening. that was brought to the homicide and robbery bureau by myself and detective dhority. mr. belin. was it brought to that bureau at the time you brought the two women? mr. brown. at the same time the davis women were brought to the office for affidavits and identification. mr. belin. who did you turn that cartridge shell over to? mr. brown. that went to the crime lab, dallas crime lab. mr. belin. did you, yourself, turn it over? mr. brown. no; detective dhority handled that. mr. belin. detective dhority handled that? mr. brown. we were keeping this evidence in a chain there. mrs. barbara jeanette davis handed him the spent cartridge. he gave it to the crime lab himself, which was initialled by both of us. mr. belin. anything else, sir? mr. brown. none in regard to any evidence or identification of any further witnesses. mr. belin. anything else in connection with either the assassination or the tippit murder? mr. brown. none that i recall at this time, sir. mr. belin. sir, you have an opportunity to either read the deposition when it is transcribed and sign it, or else waive the reading and have our court reporter send it directly to washington. you can take your choice. mr. brown. well, i have no reason to read it for any reason at all. mr. belin. do you want to waive signing it then? mr. brown. that would be fine. waive signing, and you can send it right out. to the best of my knowledge, that is everything that happened. mr. belin. well, we certainly appreciate all of your cooperation and the cooperation of the dallas police department. testimony of l. c. graves testimony of l. c. graves was taken at : p.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. david w. belin, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. belin. would you rise and raise your right hand. do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. graves. i do. mr. belin. would you state your name, for the reporter? mr. graves. my name is l. c. graves. mr. belin. what is your occupation, mr. graves? mr. graves. i am a detective with the police department, city of dallas. mr. belin. how old are you? mr. graves. i am years old. mr. belin. were you born and raised in texas? mr. graves. yes, sir; i was born and raised in camp county, october , . mr. belin. where did you go to school? mr. graves. leesburg--i mean to pittsburg. mr. belin. how far did you get through school? mr. graves. i finished - / years of schooling in pittsburg and leesburg, then received a high school diploma after such time. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. graves. then what did i do? mr. belin. yes, sir. mr. graves. oh, let's see. from there i went into the ccc camp. mr. belin. for a period of several years? mr. graves. let's see, i think a couple of years, approximately. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. graves. i came out and stayed out about a couple of months and then i joined the texas national guard, and shortly after that it mobilized and i went into active service, at which time i stayed until i was discharged after the war. mr. belin. was this an honorable discharge? mr. graves. yes. mr. belin. what were your duties in the army, say, generally? mr. graves. well, i was in the infantry, and i was a mess sergeant, and i cooked principally all the time i was in. mr. belin. you were the one we all complained about when the food wasn't good? mr. graves. yes; if you want to put it that way. i got a few complaints. mr. belin. then after your discharge, what did you do? mr. graves. after my discharge, i came to dallas, i married and went to work for interstate theatres. first went to work for railway express agency here and worked for a short period of time and then i went to work for interstate theatres. mr. belin. what did you do for interstate? mr. graves. let me retract that. i believe i went to work for s. h. lynch co. first and later changed to paramount distributors, and they went broke, and then i went with interstate theatres, and that is where i was working when i went to work for the police department. mr. belin. were they all related? in other words, when you say paramount, was that---- mr. graves. no. s. h. lynch co. had a cigarette-candy item section of the company in connection with the beer distributors. paramount distributors was a vending machine company which went out of business, which was a separate business, didn't have anything to do with the movie industry or picture industry, so to speak. mr. belin. what did you do with that aspect of the business? mr. graves. the paramount distributors, i was a bookkeeper. mr. belin. then you went from there to where? mr. graves. interstate theatres. mr. belin. what did you do for interstate theatres? mr. graves. they call it an operating engineer, air-conditioning operating engineer was the title, for it has to do with operating the equipment for the purpose of air conditioning and refrigeration. mr. belin. of theatres? mr. graves. yes. mr. belin. then from there you went to the dallas police department? mr. graves. yes; that's right. mr. belin. what year was that? mr. graves. october , . mr. belin. and you have been with the dallas police department ever since? mr. graves. yes. mr. belin. mr. graves, were you on duty on november , ? mr. graves. no. mr. belin. was that an off day for you, or what? mr. graves. yes; it was. mr. belin. when did you go to work, if at all? mr. graves. about o'clock that day. mr. belin. had you already heard the news of the assassination? mr. graves. well, yes. when i came to work, i had already heard. that is the reason i went to work, as a matter of fact. mr. belin. on november , , could you state what you did after you got to the dallas police station? mr. graves. well, the first thing that i did was take a statement from, i believe her name was, helen markham. let me see; yes, i took a statement from miss or mrs. helen markham. mr. belin. how did you happen to see mrs. markham or miss markham? mr. graves. well, of course you have to be there to realize the mass confusion, but a squad uniform officer had brought this lady in and she was quite hysterical, and they put her in a little room, just across the hall from our bureau, and notified the lieutenant that they had her over there, and when i walked in they told me to go talk to this lady and take an affidavit from her, which i did. mr. belin. you say she was quite hysterical. describe her actions. mr. graves. she was crying and upset, naturally. mr. belin. was she saying anything at all? mr. graves. well, i don't recall exactly what she was saying--what most hysterical women say--wringing her hands and talking about the shooting. mr. belin. you took an affidavit from her? mr. graves. yes. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. graves. well, i held a showup along with leavelle and the chief and captain fritz, and i don't remember who else, about a roomful. mr. belin. could you state what occurred in that showup? how many people were in this showup? mr. graves. i don't remember exactly how many people. mr. belin. you mean of the men that were actually lined up? mr. graves. i don't know. i believe four or five, i think. he was identified as no. man. let me see, he was identified as no. man in a four-man lineup, yes. mr. belin. do you know who the people were who were in this particular lineup? mr. graves. i don't know. nobody but oswald. mr. belin. do you know that lee harvey oswald was no. man in that lineup? mr. graves. yes. i do. mr. belin. do you have any recollection or notes which would in any way give the approximate physical description of the other men in this lineup? mr. graves. no; i don't. i was present out in the front with mrs. markham, and i don't remember exactly who talked to the people or men that were on the stage. it is quite possible that they might have the names of the other people that were in this lineup, but i don't myself. i don't remember this physical description. mr. belin. do you remember whether or not they were all white men or was one or more a negro? mr. graves. they were all white men. mr. belin. do you remember anything about their approximate ages? mr. graves. no; i don't. let me say this, that it would be very unusual if we had a showup and asked a certain person or persons to appear in this showup, if they put anything other than men that fit their approximate size and age in there with them, and race and color, i might add, because we just don't operate that way. mr. belin. what is your general mode of operation with regard to showups? perhaps you could tell us this. mr. graves. yes; i sure can. when we want to show a person up, we call the jail supervisor and tell him what we want and who we want in the showup, and to put two or three or four other people with him, the approximate age, size, and so forth. and they do that for us, and we--the only contact, the only dealings we have had with them is talking to them while they are on the stage. mr. belin. when you say the approximate age or size, do you specify what age or size you want? mr. graves. well, it is not necessary, because they are looking at the man that you are bringing down. mr. belin. well---- mr. graves. so all he has to do is pick them out. mr. belin. so what you mean is the approximate age and size of the particular person you want included in the showup, or is it of another particular age and size? mr. graves. the fact is, if i was showing you, i would tell them to pull you for a showup and put some other men about your age and size. that is what it boils down to. mr. belin. now, could you tell us what mrs. or miss markham did or said when this particular showup took place? were you standing right next to her? mr. graves. about as close as i am to you, which would be approximately or feet. mr. belin. all right; the men walked in, i assume, is that correct? mr. graves. that's right. mr. belin. where was mrs. markham at that particular time? mr. graves. she was standing in the center of the room, approximately in the first row of seats near the front. mr. belin. she was seated? mr. graves. no; she was standing. mr. belin. she was standing? mr. graves. yes. mr. belin. did she look through an opening in the wall? mr. graves. no; this is a screen, a nylon screen of some kind. i am sure you have seen them? mr. belin. she can see through, as i understand, but the people in the showup room cannot see the people on the other side of the screen. is that correct? mr. graves. that's correct. mr. belin. all right. do you remember what she said or did after the men in the showup came in? mr. graves. well, she began to cry when he came in. he was next to the last man that come in in that order. no. , , , , and so forth that came in. mr. belin. you mean no. came first, then no. and then no. and then no. ? mr. graves. that's right. mr. belin. when did she start crying? mr. graves. when he walked in, oswald walked in. mr. belin. you mean when the no. man walked in? mr. graves. yes. mr. belin. were they still walking at the time she started crying? mr. graves. yes. as soon as she saw him; yes. he would have to walk as far as from here to that stand, approximately. mr. belin. that would be about or feet? mr. graves. yes, sir; roughly. mr. belin. all right. what did she do or say? mr. graves. well, of course she said that was the man that she saw, oswald. i mean at this particular time. mr. belin. did she ask to have the men turn so that she would see their profiles? mr. graves. well, i don't recall if she asked that or not, but that is the normal procedure that we do that. we turn him profile, right, left, and to the rear, and back to the front, in that order. mr. belin. do you remember anything specific that she said at the time that she made the identification? mr. graves. nothing other than he is the one, no. is the one. mr. belin. was anything said by any of the men in the showup that would--did they speak any words or say anything at all? mr. graves. if they did, i don't remember what was said. i am reasonably sure they asked some questions. that is the usual procedure. if they were, at this point i just don't remember what was said. mr. belin. do you remember the dress of the people in the showup? mr. graves. no; positively not. mr. belin. does your police department ever take any photograph of an actual showup, i mean, insofar as still shots, to have any written or pictorial record of the men in the showup, as to what they were wearing or what they looked like? mr. graves. that was not a policy or an order at this time, but it has been done, however, in the past. but for various reasons, as i say, it is not the customary thing, because we have quite a number of showups that would necessitate a time element there, sometimes waiting on the proper people to take the picture, and so forth. mr. belin. anything else that you have any recollection of in connection with this showup of mrs. markham or miss markham's identification? mrs. graves. i don't remember anything outstanding at this moment; no. mr. belin. do you remember about when this took place, this actual showup? mr. graves. well, let's see if i have it written down here. we put lee oswald in a four-man lineup in the city hall on november , , at : p.m., and had helen markham view this lineup. she was positive on the identification of oswald, and he was the no. man in the four-man lineup. mr. belin. you were reading from your notes that you made of your actions on that day? mr. graves. yes. mr. belin. anything else that you did on that day? mr. graves. well, i don't remember anything else except this affidavit of mrs. mary e. bledsoe. mr. belin. that was on november , was it not? mr. graves. november . mr. belin. i am still on november . mr. graves. have you had any of the reports that we have made? mr. belin. yes, sir. i have read them all, but i have to get this down for the record. mr. graves. you want me to read this verbatim? mr. belin. no, sir; you can read it verbatim or else you can tell me if there is anything that you can develop beyond what you have on the written record that you submitted to your department. i am very much interested in this, if you can develop anything. if you can't, then you can just summarize or repeat what you have put down in your written report. sometimes when you read something it triggers your memory and you remember something that you might not have put down at the time. mr. graves. offhand, i don't remember anything. mr. belin. well, according to your written report, you took helen markham back to her address, to let her out? mr. graves. yes. mr. belin. do you remember in talking with helen markham what she said as to why she happened to be in the vicinity of the tippit shooting? mr. graves. i believe she was going to catch a bus. i would have to see her affidavit to remember that exactly, but i think she was either going home or coming from work, one or the other, is the reason for her being at that location. mr. belin. now you also later interviewed on that day several other people in connection with the tippit murder, did you not? mr. graves. i talked to some; yes. mr. belin. do you remember who these were? mr. graves. that would be ted callaway, sam guinyard, and domingo benavides. mr. belin. did any of those men come down to a lineup? mr. graves. they did come down later, but i didn't have anything to do with the lineup. mr. belin. did you have anything to do with bringing them down to see a lineup? mr. graves. no; i did not. mr. belin. did all the men come down to a lineup? mr. graves. i think they did. i was told that they did, and i have not seen anything authentic about it. mr. belin. now, your report says two of the three men came down to the city hall and gave affidavits on views of oswald in the lineup? mr. graves. that would be lineup. mr. belin. from my interpretation here from what we have, ted callaway and sam guinyard gave affidavits, but domingo benavides did not. is there any particular reason that you know of why benavides did not come down to give an affidavit or view a lineup? mr. graves. no; i wouldn't have any idea. mr. belin. well---- mr. graves. because after this little episode with them, i never saw them or had any occasion to talk to them any further. mr. belin. do you remember any conversation particularly with domingo benavides? mr. graves. no. mr. belin. well, i am going to try and refresh your recollection to see if i can help you a little bit. i believe that he was driving a pickup truck at about the time of the tippit shooting, and actually was the first one to place a call over tippit's radio that tippit had been shot. does this strike a chord in your memory? mr. graves. not to me. he didn't tell me that. leavelle talked to him to one side. mr. belin. oh, i see. you weren't the one he talked to? mr. graves. he didn't tell me that. mr. belin. but officer leavelle would be the one he talked to? mr. graves. yes. mr. belin. anything else on november ? mr. graves. i don't remember anything else of any consequence. i had so many phone calls. mr. belin. you had a few phone calls to the police station that day? mr. graves. just a few, yes. mr. belin. what about on november ? mr. graves. that is the day i took the affidavit of mrs. bledsoe. mr. belin. did you ever bring mrs. bledsoe down to view the lineup at all, or not? mr. graves. i didn't; no. mr. belin. was there any particular reason why you elected not to take her down, if this was your election? i don't know if it was. mr. graves. what? mr. belin. is there any particular reason why you didn't bring her down to view a lineup? mr. graves. not that i can think of. mr. belin. now she claimed that she had seen lee harvey oswald on a bus shortly after the assassination? mr. graves. yes. mr. belin. do you remember whether or not you asked her to come down to a lineup and she refused to come down? mr. graves. no; i didn't ask her to come down to a lineup herself. i asked her to come down and give an affidavit. mr. belin. was she actually at the police department? mr. graves. yes. mr. belin. did anyone else ask--let me ask you this question. whose responsibility would it have been to have a lineup for certain people? is this the interviewing officer, or is this the person in charge of the investigation, or what? mr. graves. in a case like this, it would have to be the person in charge of the entire investigation. mr. belin. who would that have been? insofar as bledsoe? mr. graves. insofar as our bureau was concerned, it would have been captain fritz. mr. belin. anything else that you can remember on november ? mr. graves. let me refresh my memory here, if i can. i don't know. i don't remember anything else on the d that was outstanding. mr. belin. now on november --first, i want to take that part of november up to the time of the shooting of lee harvey oswald by jack ruby. first, did you have any contact or anything to do with the investigation of the case on november , on sunday? mr. graves. no; not before he was transferred. mr. belin. did you have anything to do with the interrogation of lee harvey oswald? mr. graves. nothing except that i was present during the latter part of the interrogation; part of it. mr. belin. could you state the circumstances under which you were present? how you happened to be present? mr. graves. well, i had been told that we were going to transfer lee harvey oswald, and we were told to make preparations to do that, so that would necessitate going into the office where he was. mr. belin. what did you find when you went in the office? mr. graves. well, i found, of course, lee harvey oswald, captain fritz, and the people that i have named here. the others present were mr. holmes from the u.s. post office department, mr. kelley from the secret service, agent sorrels from the secret service, l. d. montgomery, detective; c. n. dhority, j. r. leavelle; and chief curry came in just a few minutes before we started to move. mr. belin. did you participate in the bringing of oswald down to be interrogated? mr. graves. yes. mr. belin. at about what time in the morning, was this? mr. graves. i think that was around : a.m. mr. belin. did you stay with him throughout the interrogation, or did you leave? mr. graves. i stayed in the same room near. in the bureau, actually. mr. belin. this was done in captain fritz' office, was it not? mr. graves. yes. mr. belin. after you brought lee harvey oswald into captain fritz' office at : a.m., what did you do? mr. graves. i went back out and answered telephones and talked to people coming in. mr. belin. did you witness any part of the early interrogation? mr. graves. no; i didn't. mr. belin. what time did you go back into captain fritz' office? mr. graves. roughly, about : or : a.m. mr. belin. well, the original time set for transfer was around a.m.? mr. graves. that was my understanding. mr. belin. all right, let me ask you, has anyone else taken your deposition here? mr. graves. yes. mr. belin. so you have already been questioned as to the transfer of lee harvey oswald? mr. graves. yes. mr. belin. that is something i don't want to get into. what about the interrogation? do you remember any subjects that were covered? mr. graves. well, i couldn't think of mr. kelley's name, the last time, but he questioned oswald along the line of his activity in mexico and in russia. mr. belin. do you remember whether or not oswald admitted that he was in mexico? mr. graves. i believe he did admit it. mr. belin. do you remember what he said about his activities in mexico? mr. graves. i am too vague on that to make any statement on what he said. i don't remember exactly, so i would rather not say anything. i know that he did say something, but the best of my knowledge, it sure didn't amount to a great deal. very evasive, as every other answer was. mr. belin. do you remember anything specific, any questions or any statements that oswald made about any other subject that was discussed? mr. graves. well, he said that he had been a student of marxism since he was , i believe, and communist line, and that he, well, one of his last statements was that the american people would soon forget the president was shot. of course he never admitted that he did it. mr. belin. was he asked in your presence whether or not he did it? mr. graves. oh, yes; he was asked, but of course---- mr. belin. do you remember what he said? mr. graves. he said no, he didn't shoot him. mr. belin. was he asked in your presence whether or not he shot officer tippit? mr. graves. no. mr. belin. was he asked in your presence whether or not he owned a rifle? mr. graves. yes. mr. belin. do you remember what his answer was? mr. graves. he said that he didn't. mr. belin. was he asked in your presence anything about a picture of him with a rifle? mr. graves. yes. mr. belin. do you remember what his statement was with regard to the picture? mr. graves. he said, "you could superimpose anything you want to with cameras. it wasn't him." mr. belin. did he say anything else, that you remember, about the picture? mr. graves. no. mr. belin. was he asked anything about the use of an alias? mr. graves. yes; he was, but he denied that, of course. mr. belin. was he asked anything about his having a pistol in his possession when he was apprehended, or did he make any statements? mr. graves. well, he wasn't asked anything about the pistol in my presence. mr. belin. did he make any statements about having a lawyer while he was in your presence? mr. graves. having a lawyer? mr. belin. yes. mr. graves. no. mr. belin. now when you brought him in, after you brought him in, which was around : , how long did you stay there? through about how many minutes of interrogation before you left? mr. graves. let's see, from : until approximately : , somewhere along there. mr. belin. were you in the room in which the interrogation occurred throughout this period? mr. graves. no. mr. belin. well, how long were you in the room where he was being interrogated? mr. graves. about minutes. mr. belin. you were there the first minutes? mr. graves. no; last minutes. mr. belin. did you hear any of the initial questions of the interrogation at all? mr. graves. no. mr. belin. now you accompanied oswald down from his fifth floor jail cell to captain fritz' office to be interrogated, is that correct? mr. graves. yes. mr. belin. did you have any conversation with him when you picked him up at his jail cell? mr. graves. no. mr. belin. did you remember telling him he was going to be brought down for interrogation? mr. graves. i told him they were going to transfer him. mr. belin. that is what you told him? mr. graves. yes. mr. belin. what did he say as to that? mr. graves. well, he didn't have anything to say. he didn't know what transfer meant, i don't think. i think he meant from one jail cell to another. he didn't know that meant going to the county. mr. belin. when you brought him down to captain fritz' office, he of course had been there before, hadn't he? mr. graves. oh, yes. mr. belin. did he have any comments as he walked in the office about being interrogated or anything of that nature? mr. graves. i don't know. he might have said something to the news media, i don't remember what it was. mr. belin. what is the fact as to whether or not lee harvey oswald ever requested that he be provided a lawyer, insofar as your own personal knowledge is concerned? did he ever make any such request to you or in your presence? mr. graves. no, no; sure didn't. mr. belin. do you know of your own personal knowledge whether or not he was ever advised that he had a right to have a lawyer? mr. graves. not in my presence. mr. belin. this is what i am asking, then, just of your own knowledge? mr. graves. no; he wasn't. mr. belin. he might have been by someone else, but it wasn't done before you? mr. graves. might have been by someone else, but not in my presence. mr. belin. was this as much contact as you had with oswald? you indicate you saw him in a showup and you picked him up in a jail cell and you brought him down to be interrogated on november , when you were present during about minutes, the latter part of this interrogation. any other contacts with oswald apart from these? mr. graves. no; not that i had direct contact with him. mr. belin. what was your impression of him, as far as a person is concerned? his demeanor, his action, what kind of a person he was? mr. graves. well, of course i am not a psychiatrist or psychologist, but i would say he was an eight ball, in my vernacular. mr. belin. an eight ball in army vernacular? mr. graves. in any vernacular. we deal with a lot of people in our business, as well as we run into all types of people. i would say that he was egotistical. mr. belin. let me stop right there. what gave you the impression he was egotistical? mr. graves. well, i don't know. a person of his nature and cocky attitude, i don't know exactly how to explain it. mr. belin. any specific thing that he did that gave you that impression, that you can remember at all, or not? mr. graves. no; not anything in particular. again, you just have to be around people. i don't know how to explain how people act to where it means anything, but i know what it means to me. i have been wrong a few times, but i have been right most of the time in summing up how people are, their actions, and so forth, and i would say this boy was a little far out in his belief about things in general. and the way he conducted hisself. he is just plain egotistical, that is all. he don't care about you, me, or anybody else. he is caring about oswald. mr. belin. can you think of any specific action or remark of his that might be an illustration of this? mr. graves. i can't offhand, no. mr. belin. well, you described him, you used the phrase "eight ball." you used "egotistical." can you use any other adjective that you think would apply to him as you saw him? mr. graves. no; i think that pretty well covers it, myself. mr. belin. was he generally quiet, or was he soft spoken, or was he quick to make remarks? mr. graves. well, he was quick to answer and quick to make a remark when he was spoken to or asked a question. mr. belin. is he what you would categorize as polite in his answers or not? mr. graves. not always polite. he was straightforward and to the point, and not necessarily polite. don't lead me off in a channel of psychiatry, because i am just telling you my own personal feeling about the man, and i could be wrong, as i said. so i am not an expert in that field. i am just telling you what i think about the man, and you take it for what it is worth. as i said, i could be wrong. i have been wrong before. mr. belin. was he attentive as you saw him. i mean, did he---- mr. graves. if you mean--he is sharp when it comes to talking to the men. he listened to everything, everybody he saw, and he had an answer by the time you got through asking him. that would make him attentive. mr. belin. this could be helpful. in other words, if he were asked a question, did he pause before he answered the question, or did he just shoot an answer straight back? mr. graves. just answered right back. mr. belin. were there any exceptions to this, that you could remember, or was this almost invariably the case? mr. graves. well, that was the case in everything that i heard him say. he didn't hunt for words, didn't hesitate at all. mr. belin. detective graves, is there anything else you can think of that might be relevant to this area of inquiry which involves anything to do with lee harvey oswald or the investigation of the assassination, or the shooting of officer tippit, that we haven't discussed here? mr. graves. at this point, i don't recall anything else. mr. belin. well, we certainly appreciate your cooperation, doubly so, because we know you have been down here once before, and i want to tell you that you have a right, if you would like, to read the transcript of this deposition and sign it and make any corrections that you wish, or you can just have the reporter ship it to us directly in washington, and waive the signing, whatever you want to do? do you have any preference at all? mr. graves. well, if i don't sign it, it won't make any difference anyway. mr. belin. you can waive it if you would like to. mr. graves. i will waive it. it don't make any difference to me. mr. belin. all right. mr. graves. in the interest of time and everything. mr. belin. thanks a lot. testimony of james r. leavelle the testimony of james r. leavelle was taken at : a.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by messrs. joseph a. ball and samuel a. stern, assistant counsel of the president's commission. robert t. davis, assistant attorney general, was present. mr. ball. mr. leavelle, will you stand and raise your right hand? [witness complying.] mr. ball. do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. leavelle. i do. mr. ball. will you state you name, please? mr. leavelle. james r. leavelle. mr. ball. and your address? mr. leavelle. r-i-l-l-a [spelling], dallas, tex. mr. ball. and, what is your occupation? mr. leavelle. detective, dallas police department. mr. ball. how long have you been on the department? mr. leavelle. fourteen years. mr. ball. how long have you been in the homicide squad? mr. leavelle. a little over years. mr. ball. tell me about where you were born and your education; what you have done most of your life. mr. leavelle. well, i was born and raised mostly in red river county in east texas and went into service. after leaving the service, coming out of the service i worked for different companies here in dallas until i joined the department in . mr. ball. the purpose of our inquiry here is to find out facts concerning the assassination of president kennedy. that's the general purpose of it. mr. leavelle. yes. mr. ball. you took part in the investigation, did you not, as a member of the dallas police department? mr. leavelle. a minor part you might say. i didn't have much to do with oswald, myself. mr. ball. well, you talked to some of the witnesses, didn't you? mr. leavelle. yes. mr. ball. on november , , were you on duty? mr. leavelle. yes; i was. mr. ball. what time did you go to work? mr. leavelle. i was working to i believe, that month and i had--when i heard of the assassination. i had just come into the homicide office with a negro boy i had arrested for robbery. mr. ball. whereabouts did you go then after that? mr. leavelle. we, along with charlie brown, went to the building, the texas book depository, and talked with the inspector there. i asked him if the building had been secured and he said it was and captain fritz was in the building. mr. ball. was that inspector sawyer? mr. leavelle. yes; he said they were sending all witnesses to the sheriff's office and i might go over and check and see what was needed, so i went to the sheriff's office and found them in a general uproar more or less. they had several witnesses around and they wanted to take affidavits from them; however, none of them had started. so, when i walked in, they knew i was a homicide man and would be indirectly responsible for some of the investigation, so i talked with allen sweatt, chief deputy, and started to set up the procedure for the taking of the affidavits from the witnesses when several of the--four, five or six of the burglary and theft detectives walked in and told me that they were sent down there to do whatever was needed to be done and asked me what was needed, so i told them to work with mr. sweatt and take those affidavits and they could do that as well as i and i would go back to the depository and see what might further be needed over there. i went to the depository and had been there just a short time talking to some of the officers on duty there. i don't remember who they were at this time and at that time i heard a radio broadcast of the shooting in oak cliff which involved officer tippit and i called my office and found that there was no one to answer the call in oak cliff and since everything was under control there, i felt like some of us should be in oak cliff, so i borrowed a car from detective red edwards of burglary---- (at this point, mr. robert t. davis enters.) mr. ball. go ahead, mr. leavelle. mr. leavelle. i borrowed an automobile from detective red edwards, a. l. edwards, and proceeded to the oak cliff area. i went to the scene of the shooting. they had removed tippit's body at that time and i talked with the sergeant and the officer. mr. ball. what were their names? mr. leavelle. i believe sergeant bud owens was the sergeant there and one of the uniformed officers was--i may be in error on this, but i believe it was poe. mr. ball. j. m. poe? mr. leavelle. yes; p-o-e [spelling]. mr. ball. at that time someone told you some empty . caliber hulls had been picked up. did poe tell you that? mr. leavelle. yes; i believe he did. mr. ball. did he give you the hulls? mr. leavelle. no; he did not give them to me. i think my instructions to him were to turn them over to the crime lab. mr. ball. did he show them to you? mr. leavelle. i don't think so; he may have but i do not recall. he may have. he did say that there was an eyewitness to it but he didn't know her name at the time. so, while i was talking to him was when the call came out they seen the suspect go into the texas theatre, so i proceeded to the texas theatre, but due to the heavy traffic, i didn't get there until after the arrest was made and they had left, so i returned to the scene and talked with the officer some more and i believe that he also told me that a man in a carlot down there had seen oswald running from the scene. mr. ball. who told you? mr. leavelle. poe, i believe. now, i could be in error on that but someone told me anyway, so---- mr. ball. you went back to the police station and took some affidavits from witnesses, didn't you? mr. leavelle. that's right, i went on to the station at that time and took affidavits from--talked with some of the witnesses that they had brought in there because at the time i didn't realize there was any connection between oswald and the shooting of tippit or the one that they had arrested in the texas theatre for the killing of tippit and the presidential assassination. i thought it was two different things altogether. so, i proceeded back to the office to work on that end of it, checking with the captain, and they was tied up with the presidential assassination, and not until we got there did i realize some few minutes later on, when talking to some of the people of the texas book depository, did we realize oswald could very well be the same one who assassinated the president. mr. ball. well, did captain fritz instruct you to go out and pick up the witness and come down to a showup, bring her down to a showup? mr. leavelle. yes; this helen markham, the witness, was in such a state of shock she had been unable to view the lineup. mr. ball. where did you see her the first time? mr. leavelle. she was in the emergency room, in the hospital emergency room, first aid room, whatever you call it in the basement of the city hall, and i went over and talked with her and kind of got her calmed down where she thought she could stand to view the lineup, and when she told me that she felt like she was able to stand it, why, i called the captain and told him that we were ready for the showup, at which time some of the other officers brought oswald down. i took here into the showup room myself and stood with her while she viewed the lineup. mr. ball. were you and helen markham the only two in what you call the showup room? mr. leavelle. no, captain fritz and chief curry was in there also and possibly one or two others; i do not recall. mr. ball. how about your partner, c. w. brown? mr. leavelle. i do not know whether he was there or not. mr. ball. any other witnesses? mr. leavelle. now mr. graves may have been in there. mr. ball. were there any other witnesses in there? mr. leavelle. no. mr. ball. who picked the men for the showup? mr. leavelle. i do not know. mr. ball. did you? mr. leavelle. no; i had nothing to do with that. mr. ball. do you know who the men were in the showup? mr. leavelle. that particular showup they had gotten two of the officers, i believe, that work in the vice squad. mr. ball. i have the names of the people in the showup; no. was bill perry; is he a dallas police department officer? mr. leavelle. yes. mr. ball. no. r. l. clark---- mr. leavelle. he is an officer also. mr. ball. vice squad? mr. leavelle. yes. mr. ball. don ables is a jail clerk? mr. leavelle. yes. mr. ball. do you know who picked these men? mr. leavelle. no; i do not know who decided that they be in the showup. of course, i am sure whoever did was using them, thinking of the security angle of it more than anything else, rather than getting prisoners down there. mr. ball. is it unusual to use officers in the showup? mr. leavelle. yes; we don't normally do it. mr. ball. you usually have other prisoners in the showup? mr. leavelle. yes, trustees serving time, or---- mr. ball. what is your memory as to how these men were dressed? mr. leavelle. i think all of them had on just shirts and trousers, i believe. i don't think there was any coats involved in any of them. mr. ball. did any have ties? mr. leavelle. none had ties or hats on. mr. ball. who conducted the showup questioning? mr. leavelle. i probably asked the questions, yes. mr. ball. what questions? mr. leavelle. normally, i would not have asked names in this case because for fear of her remembering the name, so, or might have heard the name, so, probably asked how old they were, what occupation, anything so they could speak and let me hear the sound of their voice. mr. ball. did any of them say they were police officers? mr. leavelle. no, no; the officers gave some other occupation. mr. ball. now, what did helen markham say while she was in the showup room? mr. leavelle. well, she was very nervous and i do not recall what all she did say, but she was able to identify oswald as the one. mr. ball. what did she tell you? mr. leavelle. she said he was the man that was at the scene she saw do the shooting over there in oak cliff. mr. ball. did you take a statement from her then? mr. leavelle. i took one from her but i do not remember whether--just when i took it. mr. ball. then what did you do after that showup? mr. leavelle. well, i--mr. graves and i took helen back home and after we dropped her off we stopped by this carlot, east jefferson, and talked with the manager or owner of that and found out that he was the one that had seen the man running. he had heard the shots and seen the man running, from the scene of the shooting and the colored porter there also had heard it, and they had gone to the scene and they said, each of them said, that they thought they might be able to identify the man that they saw running; they heard the shots and they ran outside and saw him running down the sidewalk across the street from the lot with the gun in his hand. mr. ball. you also talked to domingo benavides? mr. leavelle. yes. mr. ball. d-o-m-i-n-g-o b-e-n-a-v-i-d-e-s [spelling]. i would think it would be spelled differently. mr. leavelle. he was supposed to be mexican descent but that benavides is actually an italian name, i believe. mr. ball. well, did you talk to him also? mr. leavelle. i talked with him but i do not believe we ever took an affidavit off him that i recall--may have. mr. ball. didn't he tell you that he picked up some empty hulls? mr. leavelle. yes, he told me he picked them up and gave them to the officer. i remember the officer told me he had gotten the hulls from someone who gave them to him, and when i talked to domingo, he said he was the one picked them up and give them to the officer. mr. ball. did you bring any of these men downtown? mr. leavelle. no. mr. ball. did you ask them---- mr. leavelle. i called later--ted callaway--bring the others down; however, i think the negro porter there, whatever his name is, is the only one he brought. mr. ball. you say you told him to bring the others down? who did you tell to bring down? mr. leavelle. the porter and this domingo. mr. ball. but he only brought---- mr. leavelle. sam guinyard. mr. ball. do you know why domingo benavides was never brought down for the showup? mr. leavelle. i think he said he never saw the man actually. i believe he said later on he did not see the man. mr. ball. he testified here he saw the man running. mr. leavelle. but he--either that or he told me he could not recognize him, one or the other. mr. ball. did you have a showup with callaway and guinyard? mr. leavelle. yes, i do not recall the time but we did. mr. ball. do you want to see your notes here; would that refresh your memory? here is a report that you made, also. [papers to witness.] mr. leavelle. yes, at : p.m. would be right. mr. ball. : p.m.? mr. leavelle. yes. mr. ball. who was in the audience side of the showup this time? mr. leavelle. as far as i know there wasn't anyone other than mr. graves and myself, and i am not too sure he was there. i do not recall. mr. ball. your notes say that brown and dhority were with you. is that right? mr. leavelle. well, i do not remember; it could have been. mr. ball. who was with the witnesses? mr. leavelle. who was with the witnesses? mr. ball. what officer was with the witnesses? mr. leavelle. well, we were with them. mr. ball. who talked to them? mr. leavelle. are you talking about the witnesses or the ones in the lineup? mr. ball. no; i am talking about the witnesses. mr. leavelle. only two witnesses is callaway and guinyard and i talked with them. mr. ball. you talked with them? mr. leavelle. yes. mr. ball. who were the men in the showup this time? mr. leavelle. i do not remember. mr. ball. these notes show that billy perry was no. ; r. l. clark, no. ; and , don ables; and no. , oswald. mr. leavelle. i know they were on two different showups, so it is quite possible. mr. ball. who conducted the questions of the men in the showup? mr. leavelle. i would think i would have been--the same line. mr. ball. do you know what ted callaway said? mr. leavelle. not per se; i know they were able to identify oswald. mr. ball. what was the substance of what he said? mr. leavelle. i do not recall. mr. ball. you say "identify"; that doesn't mean much to me because i don't know what he identified him as. mr. leavelle. he said he was the man; he identified him as the man he saw running from the direction where the shots came from over in the oak cliff area near his carlot. mr. ball. what about sam guinyard? mr. leavelle. same thing, practically. mr. ball. did you take statements from them? mr. leavelle. i believe i took affidavits from them, according to my notes, there while we were waiting for them to come down. mr. ball. did you also show them a jacket? mr. leavelle. yes; i took them to the fourth floor and asked them to look at a jacket which---- mr. ball. i show you commission exhibit . does that look anything like the jacket? mr. leavelle. it looks like the jacket that i showed them; yes. mr. ball. do you know what callaway said when he saw the jacket? mr. leavelle. he said this was definitely the jacket or one exactly like it. mr. ball. do you know what guinyard said? mr. leavelle. he said it was also the same type jacket. mr. ball. now then, did you do anything else that day on this investigation? mr. leavelle. i do not recall other than possibly answer the telephone in the office. mr. ball. you went to work at what time saturday morning, november , ? mr. leavelle. it would be around o'clock, i imagine. mr. ball. and did you take some statements that day? mr. leavelle. chances are i may have, i do not remember. mr. ball. here is---- mr. leavelle. it says took one affidavit from r. s. truly, supervisor of texas school book and the other of employee, mrs. r. a. reid. mr. ball. you are refreshing your memory from a report that you made, is that correct? mr. leavelle. yes. mr. ball. now, did you attend another showup that day? mr. leavelle. yes; we held another showup that day which involved a cabdriver---- mr. ball. what's his name? mr. leavelle. we later found out he was near the scene of the shooting and saw the shooting, also, w. w. scoggins. we held a showup for him at : p.m. mr. ball. was anyone else with him at that time? mr. leavelle. yes; there was another man who was another cabdriver, name of william wayne whaley [spelling]. mr. ball. had you talked to him? mr. leavelle. i had not talked to whaley; no. mr. ball. what officer talked to whaley? mr. leavelle. i do not recall. mr. ball. did you pick up whaley in the squadcar? mr. leavelle. no. mr. ball. did you pick up scoggins in the squadcar? mr. leavelle. no. mr. ball. where did you first see whaley and scoggins? mr. leavelle. they came to the office, i believe. mr. ball. did you go down with them to the showup? mr. leavelle. i am sure that i did. i do not recall but i am sure i must have. mr. ball. here's some other notes that you might look at to refresh your memory [notes to witness]. mr. leavelle. from these notes here it indicates i was there along with them at that time. mr. ball. what is your memory? is your memory different from the notes? mr. leavelle. i do not remember who else was there, if anyone was. mr. ball. you know that you were there with scoggins and whaley? mr. leavelle. yes. mr. ball. do you remember the men in the showup? mr. leavelle. i do not recall who was in there. i know it says who was here but i could not tell you. mr. ball. did you pick those men? mr. leavelle. no; not at anytime did i have anything to do with picking the men in any of them. mr. ball. this was your third showup in the course of your investigation of the murder of tippit and the assassination of president kennedy? mr. leavelle. yes; the third and the only three i had anything to do with. mr. ball. who conducted this showup? mr. leavelle. i would have handled the speech of that also; asking them to say a few words. mr. ball. how were these men dressed? mr. leavelle. that i do not recall either. mr. ball. do you remember whether they had coats on? mr. leavelle. i know in all cases we usually try to have them dressed as alike as possible, the same as each other. mr. ball. what is your memory of this incident? were they dressed anywhere near similar? mr. leavelle. in one instance--now, i am not positive which one it was, oswald was in a t-shirt, having the other shirt removed upstairs where they were going to send it to the fbi laboratory for tests, and the rest of them, i believe, had on shirts. he was the only one that had on a t-shirt and i recall--i am not sure but i think it was the last one where he was raising cain about being up there with a t-shirt and wouldn't be quiet. mr. ball. what did he say? mr. leavelle. he said it wasn't fair, him being showed up in a t-shirt and being photographed in a t-shirt and all that. i don't know what he didn't say; he went on all the time. mr. ball. did whaley say anything to you personally? mr. leavelle. to me personally? mr. ball. yes. mr. leavelle. well, of course. i asked him if he--if the man that he remembered or saw there, whatever he was identifying him for there was up there and he said "yes, the man in the t-shirt." whether he was doing all the talking or not wouldn't make any difference, he still knew him. mr. ball. what did scoggins say? mr. leavelle. he said practically the same thing--the man in the t-shirt was the--or the no. man was the man he had saw do the shooting. mr. ball. who said that? mr. leavelle. that would have been scoggins. mr. ball. did whaley say--tell you whether or not he had ever seen this man before? mr. leavelle. he was supposed to have seen him i believe, but i do not recall what the circumstances were under which he saw him right offhand. mr. ball. where scoggins saw him you remember, in other words, though? mr. leavelle. yes; in other words, he was the one who said he was sitting there eating a sack of lunch parked near the corner when the shooting occurred. mr. ball. now, on november , on sunday morning, did you return to work about the same time, o'clock, or so? mr. leavelle. little before , i believe, or something. mr. ball. and, were you ordered by captain fritz to get oswald? mr. leavelle. yes; i don't--i see here it says : --whatever the official time was, i think it probably was maybe about that time. mr. ball. where did you go to get oswald? mr. leavelle. i had to go to the fourth floor jail. mr. ball. did you handcuff him? mr. leavelle. yes; i did. mr. ball. were his handcuffs in the front or in the rear? mr. leavelle. in front. mr. ball. where were you taking him? mr. leavelle. took him down the inside elevator to the third floor into captain fritz's office. mr. ball. who was present at that meeting in captain fritz's office? mr. leavelle. well, i can recall, i believe during that time i was there there were several people in and out. i believe primarily myself and mr. graves and dhority and montgomery were in there most of the time, i don't know. we were in, probably might have stepped outside the door at one time or another but primarily we were around and also mr. kelley, secret service, and a man from the postal inspector's office. i cannot recall his name at this time. he should be on here--oh, yes, mr. sorrels, also, and holmes of the postal department. now, those people and chief curry came in once or twice. all those people may not have stayed in there constantly during the time but they were in there at some time or other. mr. ball. did these various people ask questions of oswald? mr. leavelle. i know mr. sorrels did and i know mr. kelley did. i do not recall whether mr. holmes asked any questions or not and captain fritz asked him some. mr. ball. do you remember what mr. sorrels asked him? mr. leavelle. no; i don't. mr. ball. remember what mr. kelley asked him? mr. leavelle. i can only remember one question mr. kelley asked him and that was whether or not he thought the attitude of the u.s. government toward cuba would be changed since the president has been assassinated. to my knowledge, that is the only one i can recall. mr. ball. what did oswald say? mr. leavelle. oswald turned and asked captain fritz, said "i am filed on for the president's murder, is that right?" and, captain fritz told him yes, and he told mr. kelley, he said "under the circumstances, i don't believe that it would be proper." that might not be the words he used, but wouldn't be right, anyway, for him to answer that question because whatever he said might be construed in a different light than what he actually meant it to be, but he went on to say he felt like when the head of any government died or was killed, whatever, there was always a second in command who would take over and he said in this particular instance it would he johnson. he said "so far as i know, johnson's views and president kennedy's views are the same", so, he would see no particular difference in the attitude of the u.s. government toward cuba. that's about the main--the only one, because he went into such detail on it, the only one i thought was a little elaborate for him to go into that type of answer, the reason i remembered it. mr. ball. do you remember any question captain fritz asked him? mr. leavelle. i remember that the captain asked him about the shooting of the president and the shooting of the officer; i know he did ask him that and i know oswald did deny it, both times. mr. ball. that he had shot president kennedy and tippit? mr. leavelle. yes; he denied shooting either one. he did say this "if you want me to 'cop' out to hitting or pleading guilty to hitting a cop in the mouth when i was arrested", he said "yeah, i plead guilty to that" but he--i do know that he denied the shooting of both the president and tippit. mr. ball. in that meeting did he ask for a lawyer? mr. leavelle. no; i know captain fritz asked him if at one time, if--he handed him a telegram--in fact. i believe it was sent by some attorney, if my memory serves me right, and he said he did not particularly want him but he would take that and if he didn't do any better he would contact him at a later time. i do not recall what lawyer it was. it seems like some lawyer in the east sent the telegram volunteering his services to oswald. mr. ball. that is there on sunday morning, the th? mr. leavelle. yes. mr. ball. in the course of this meeting which you have been describing---- mr. leavelle. yes. mr. ball. what did oswald say? mr. leavelle. he said that he preferred--he never had gotten in touch with this lawyer in new york city that represented the american civil liberties union and he wanted to get in touch with him and said if he didn't do any better, or could not get him, he would like to talk with this man about it. mr. ball. can you remember any other questions asked oswald by captain fritz? mr. leavelle. no, not offhand; i would probably remember them if i heard the questions but i do not remember offhand. mr. ball. did anybody talk to him about the post office box? mr. leavelle. yes; mr. kelley asked him several questions and probably mr. sorrels about the post office box, both here and one he had in shreveport--wherever it was. mr. ball. new orleans? mr. leavelle. new orleans, yes. mr. ball. do you remember what oswald said? mr. leavelle. since you mentioned it, i do remember them talking to him about the new orleans box and asking him about this other name, this---- mr. ball. alek hidell? mr. leavelle. yes; and he asked him if he knew alek hidell; said he didn't know if he ever heard of the name. he never heard of that and asked him several questions along that line and then after he had denied all knowledge of alek hidell, mr. kelley asked him, said "well, isn't it a fact when you were arrested you had an identification card with his name on it in your possession." he kind of grunted, said "yes, that's right" and he said "how do you explain that?" and, as best my knowledge, he said "i don't explain it." mr. ball. anybody ask him about a gun, whether or not he bought a rifle? mr. leavelle. i am sure they did. i remember some of them asking about the rifle and about it bring sent to the box here in dallas but i do not recall. i am not sure he denied it but i do not recall what his exact denial was. mr. ball. you say he denied it. do you remember whether or not he denied that he had bought a rifle? mr. leavelle. to the best of my knowledge i do. he did deny it but i would not swear to it. mr. ball. was anything said about a revolver? mr. leavelle. i am sure they asked him something about the revolver, too, but i do not recall what it was. mr. ball. did he say whether or not he had a revolver in his possession at the time of his arrest? mr. leavelle. i do not recall what the questions was along that line or even what the answers was. like i say, i am sure that they did. it seems as though my memory tells me that he did not deny taking the revolver but there, again. i would not want to say definitely. mr. ball. did you make any notes of the conversation? mr. leavelle. no; i did not myself. that was the only time i ever sat in on the interrogations of him by captain fritz or anyone. mr. ball. is that the first time you had seen oswald? mr. leavelle. no; i had seen him, of course, the first day he was arrested and when they brought him in and out of the office taking him to and from the jail and, of course, i had saw him at the showups, what-have-you. mr. ball. had you ever talked to him before? mr. leavelle. no; i had never talked to him before. mr. ball. did he have any marks on his face when you first saw him on friday, the nd of november? mr. leavelle. well, no; not that i recall. he--i know he had a black eye. i remember seeing that some time along the way but i do not recall when i first noticed it. mr. ball. did you ever talk to oswald about his black eye? mr. leavelle. no. mr. ball. did you ever hear him say anything to anyone as to how he received the black eye? mr. leavelle. yes; i remember at one time when they were moving him. of course, if you saw television that day, i am sure you saw what men we had in the hallway up there with the photographers and newsmen, all were sticking microphones out at arms' length and hollering questions at him, and at one time someone asked him how he got the black eye. he said "a cop hit me," but that was just a hollered response to some unknown question or unknown news-reporter asking him. mr. ball. as you would move oswald through the halls on the third floor from one room to another---- mr. leavelle. actually, it wasn't from one room to the other; it would be from our office to the elevator which is some feet. mr. ball. on those occasions would the hallway he crowded with reporters, newsmen, and television cameramen? mr. leavelle. yes; cameramen and television men all over the place; in fact, i was plumb up to my chin with those people. mr. stern. how do you mean? mr. leavelle. well, i was disgusted with them. mr. stern. would they not cooperate with your request to stand in a particular place? mr. leavelle. no; if you ever slopped hogs and throw down a pail of slop and saw them rush after it you would understand what that was like up there--about the same situation. mr. ball. i'm through. do you have some more questions, mr. stern? mr. stern. there was just no response. you asked them to cooperate with you? mr. leavelle. oh, yes; they would be asked to stand back and stay back but wouldn't do much good, and they would push forward and you had to hold them off physically. of course, i realize i am not running the police department but if i had been running it wouldn't have been nobody up there; like i say, i was fed up. fact of the business, one time when i was trying to escort some witness out of there--i don't recall who it was at this time--but i was trying to get them through that crowd and taking them down the edge of the corridor and i stopped and i looked down and there was a joker had a camera stuck between my legs taking pictures so that's just some indication of how they acted. mr. stern. was any consideration given to clearing the corridor? mr. leavelle. a lot of consideration was given to it by me but, of course, i didn't have anything to do with it. mr. stern. was it discussed? mr. leavelle. i imagine just among the men up there. the officers working in the bureau probably did. i don't know whether it was discussed on a higher level or not. i have no knowledge of that. mr. stern. there were actually television cameras in the corridor? mr. leavelle. well, yes. mr. stern. hand cameras or the large? mr. leavelle. they had the big camera set on a tripod right at the entrance of that hallway leading up there which would give them a full view of the entire hallway. mr. stern. what was your impression of oswald and the way he handled himself throughout this period? mr. leavelle. like i say, the only time that i had any connections with oswald was this sunday morning. i never had occasion of hearing him being interrogated or had occasion to talk with him at anytime and, to my listening to him answering the questions that were propounded to him that particular morning, he gave me the impression of being a man with a lot better education than his formal education indicated. in other words, for instance the long elaboration that he went into on the cuba deal would tell--indicate that he had a fairly better than high school education that he was reported to have had. mr. stern. did he seem to be in control of himself? mr. leavelle. oh, yes; he was in control of himself at all times. in fact, he struck me as a man who enjoyed the situation immensely and was enjoying the publicity and everything was coming his way. mr. stern. he engaged in banter with you and the police officials? mr. leavelle. not with me because i didn't have occasion to question him, but he did always smile and never hesitated for an answer, always had an answer. mr. stern. how about on the occasions you were bringing him to or from the interrogations? mr. leavelle. i did not indulge in any of that other than the one time and, of course, if i made any comments to him at that time, i do not remember what they were. mr. stern. how about comments he made to you? mr. leavelle. i know--i think possibly at one time he--that morning that i was bringing him down on sunday morning that he may have asked me where he was going or if he was going back to captain fritz' office that morning, but aside from that, i do not recall anything else that he may have said or anything that i may have said to him in the course of the day. mr. stern. do you recall any complaints that he registered, any statements he made about his treatment, or---- mr. leavelle. no. i don't think he made any to us that morning we were moving him. mr. stern. did you receive the telegram that arrived sunday morning or that was there sunday morning about the offer? mr. leavelle. i had occasion to see it. i do not recall what it was. i think it is a matter of record somewhere. mr. stern. it was there at the sunday morning interrogation? mr. leavelle. yes; it was there and, in fact, i know the captain and i talked about it there a minute before i went up and got him, talked about informing him of this lawyer's request or offer. i said "why not let him have the telegram, show him the telegram, let him read it himself," so, that's what the captain done--let him have the telegram. mr. stern. do you recall whether any of the witnesses at the showups at which you were present said that they had seen oswald on television before they got to the police headquarters? mr. leavelle. well, i think it would have been impossible for anybody, any of them to see him with the exception of the two bus--cabdrivers. now, the others may have, i don't recall, but the others all came down on the day of the assassination so i don't believe that they would have, but i know helen markham would not have because she was taken directly to city hall and had been there ever since it happened, so she would not, and i do not believe mr. callaway and the negro porter, sam guinyard, would have had an opportunity, either. mr. stern. in any event, you do not recall it? mr. leavelle. i do not recall, but i am not saying it would not have happened. mr. stern. that's all i have. mr. ball. i would like to have officer leavelle's reports on the officer's duties filed as an exhibit to this deposition. it is marked "pages , , , , ." it is a part of the formal report of the dallas police department concerning the assassination of president kennedy and officer leavelle, your testimony will be written up by the shorthand reporter and will be submitted to you if you wish for you to read it and sign it, or, if you wish, you can waive your signature and it will be written up and forwarded to the commission without your signature. how will you prefer? mr. leavelle. i see no reason for me to sign it as long as it comes out like i put it down there. mr. ball. if you have confidence in the reporter you can waive signature and we will send it on. mr. leavelle. all right. mr. ball. it is pages through of the formal report which is included in this exhibit a. thank you very much, mr. leavelle. testimony of w. e. barnes the testimony of w. e. barnes was taken at : a.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. david w. belin, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. belin. would you rise and raise your right hand. do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. barnes. i do. mr. belin. would you please sit down. you can smoke if you want to. mr. barnes. it causes lung cancer. mr. belin. i don't know if i formally introduced myself. i am david belin, actually a practicing attorney from des moines, iowa, and about a dozen of us practicing attorneys from across the country have been with the president's commission on the assassination for most of the past months as consultants, and that is how i happen to be down here in your city. would you please state your name for the record. mr. barnes. w. e. barnes. mr. belin. where do you live, mr. barnes? mr. barnes. route , plano, tex. mr. belin. is that a suburb of dallas? mr. barnes. it is. mr. belin. what is your occupation? mr. barnes. i am a policeman for the city of dallas. mr. belin. any particular department? mr. barnes. i am a sergeant in the crime scene search section of the identification bureau. mr. belin. how old are you sergeant barnes? mr. barnes. forty-two years. mr. belin. were you born in texas? mr. barnes. yes, sir. mr. belin. went to school here? mr. barnes. yes. mr. belin. did you go to high school? mr. barnes. graduate of plano high school. mr. belin. then what did you do after you were graduated from high school? mr. barnes. i worked for an aircraft company in california, and went into the merchant marine service. mr. belin. that was during world war ii? mr. barnes. yes. mr. belin. how long were you in the merchant marine? mr. barnes. little over years. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. barnes. went to work for dallas police department. mr. belin. that would be in or ? mr. barnes. . mr. belin. have you been with them ever since? mr. barnes. i have been. mr. belin. pardon? mr. barnes. yes. mr. belin. family? mr. barnes. two children, boy and a girl. mr. belin. sergeant, were you on duty on november , ? mr. barnes. yes; i was. mr. belin. what time did you go on duty? mr. barnes. i came at a.m. mr. belin. was your shift from a.m., to---- mr. barnes. p.m. mr. belin. did you leave at p.m., on that day? mr. barnes. no; i did not. mr. belin. when you first learned of the assassination or the shooting of the president, where were you and what were you doing? mr. barnes. i was in dr. bledsoe's office just finishing a dental appointment. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. barnes. i immediately drove to the city hall. mr. belin. at about what time did you get there? mr. barnes. shortly after the president was assassinated. mr. belin. you had your appointment over the noon hour? mr. barnes. yes. mr. belin. what did you do after you got to the dallas police station? mr. barnes. i asked the captain did he want me to go to the scene or to stand by until we freed the two men that were at the scene? mr. belin. you had two men? mr. barnes. at the scene. mr. belin. when you say the scene, what do you mean? mr. barnes. the scene of the assassination. mr. belin. were they in a building there? mr. barnes. the texas school book depository building. mr. belin. the texas school book depository building? mr. barnes. that's right. mr. belin. do you know who those men were? mr. barnes. detective r. l. studebaker and lt. j. c. day. mr. belin. when you say two men, you mean from the crime laboratory? mr. barnes. two men from our crime scene search section. mr. belin. what were you advised to do? mr. barnes. i was told to standby until further notice. mr. belin. what was the next thing that occurred? mr. barnes. officer tippit was shot at th and patton in oak cliff. mr. belin. what did you do then? mr. barnes. i immediately went to the scene of the shooting. mr. belin. what did you do when you got to the scene? mr. barnes. the first thing that i did was to check the right side of tippit's car for fingerprints. mr. belin. did you find any fingerprints on the right side of the car? mr. barnes. there was several smear prints. none of value. mr. belin. where were these smear prints located? mr. barnes. just below the top part of the door, and also on the right front fender. mr. belin. why did you happen to check that particular portion of the vehicle for fingerprints? mr. barnes. i was told that the suspect which shot tippit had come up to the right side of the car, and there was a possibility that he might have placed his hands on there. mr. belin. did you do anything else at all out there? mr. barnes. i photographed the scene. mr. belin. have you had much experience in photography? mr. barnes. i have been in the crime scene search section doing this work since august , . mr. belin. when you photographed the scene, did you use flashbulb equipment or not? mr. barnes. no; i did not. mr. belin. i assume that because many crime scenes are inside, that you are also familiar with the operation of flash equipment? mr. barnes. we use flash equipment on the inside and outside when i think it is necessary. mr. belin. what kind of camera do you use? mr. barnes. speedgraphic. mr. belin. is that the kind of camera that newspaper cameramen often use? mr. barnes. a lot of them do. mr. belin. anything else that you did out at the crime scene? mr. barnes. i photographed the scene; yes. there was a couple of hulls that was turned over to me. mr. belin. do you mean empty shell casings? mr. barnes. empty . caliber hulls was turned over to me at the scene by patrolman--i believe i would be safe in saying poe, but i am not sure about that. mr. belin. how do you spell that? mr. barnes. p-o-e, i believe is the way he spells it. mr. belin. you think he was the one that turned over some shells? mr. barnes. i believe it is. i am not too sure right now, but i believe that is what is on the report. i would have to check it to be sure. mr. belin. would these be on your report? mr. barnes. it would be on our report, at the crime scene search section. mr. belin. is there anything else that was turned over to you at the scene besides these hulls that you think patrolman poe turned over? mr. barnes. not that i can remember at this time. mr. belin. while you were out there, were any additional hulls found other than these two? mr. barnes. yes. captain doughty picked up another hull, . caliber. mr. belin. did you see captain doughty pick it up? mr. barnes. i did not. mr. belin. were you advised as to anyone who might have pointed it out to captain doughty, or did he get it himself, or what? mr. barnes. i heard that someone pointed it out to him and he picked it up. mr. belin. you mean some citizen? mr. barnes. some citizen pointed it out to him, and he picked it up? mr. belin. do you remember where he might have located it? what approximate location? mr. barnes. i was a busy man and i didn't watch his operation. mr. belin. anything else out there? mr. barnes. not that i can recall at this time. mr. belin. now you took pictures of the tippit vehicle? mr. barnes. the what? mr. belin. of the tippit police car. you took pictures of that out there? mr. barnes. yes; i did. mr. belin. did you take any pictures of anything on the street in the immediate vicinity of the car? mr. barnes. yes; i did. mr. belin. what was that? mr. barnes. i took a picture of a stop sign that was located down at the intersection of patton and th. we had a report that we thought maybe that might have had some significance on the case. i also took shots at the rear of the car on the parking lot where a jacket was discarded by the suspect. mr. belin. where would that be? mr. barnes. in the alley between patton and the next street over. mr. belin. the next street to the west? mr. barnes. between patton and the alley that ran between the two. i would have to check on the map. cumberland--you got a street map? mr. belin. i have a map here which, if you will excuse me for a moment, i will try and get. mr. barnes. i sure will. crawford. mr. belin. we now have a map of dallas, and you say that the jacket was found in the alley between patton and crawford? where with relation to th or jefferson? mr. barnes. it would be between jefferson and th in the alley that separates those two streets, and running from patton and crawford. mr. belin. you say running from patton and crawford. you mean parallel? mr. barnes. it runs parallel to jefferson. mr. belin. parallel to jefferson? mr. barnes. between patton and crawford. mr. belin. between patton and crawford. was there a texaco station around there at all? mr. barnes. there is a service station right south of it. the kind of station that it is, i don't recall the kind of station it was, but there is a service station, and sort of a parking lot where this jacket was discarded. we got photos of this car where the jacket was found just behind it. mr. belin. now you took some pictures out there, you say, is that correct? mr. barnes. i did. (discussion off the record for selection of pictures.) mr. belin. sergeant barnes, i am going to hand you some pictures which we will mark as "barnes deposition exhibits a, b, c, d, and e" on the deposition of barnes, and i am going to ask you to state whether or not the original negatives from which these prints were made were taken by you? mr. barnes. they were. mr. belin. now the first one, barnes deposition exhibit a, is a picture of the dallas police squadcar no. . was that the tippit automobile? mr. barnes. it was. mr. belin. about when did you say you got out to the tippit scene? mr. barnes. approximately : . mr. belin. : in the afternoon? mr. barnes. approximately, november . mr. belin. when would you have started taking these pictures? mr. barnes. shortly afterwards. mr. belin. within or minutes? mr. barnes. yes. mr. belin. now i notice on the right-front door window it appears that the vent window was open and that the main window is closed. is that the way that you found the car when you got there? mr. barnes. that is true. mr. belin. inside the window there appears to be some kind of paper or document. do you remember what that is at all, or not? mr. barnes. that is a board, a clipboard that is installed on the dash of all squad cars for the officers to take notes on and to keep their wanted persons names on. mr. belin. were there any notes on there that you saw that had been made on this clipboard? mr. barnes. yes; we never read his clipboard. mr. belin. that is the way you saw the clipboard there? mr. barnes. that is the way it was. mr. belin. it appears to be there is a picture of some man on the clipboard. did you notice whether or not there was any handwriting or any memorandum paper on the board? mr. barnes. i couldn't tell you what was on the clipboard. mr. belin. anything else about this particular picture, barnes deposition exhibit a? mr. barnes. what? mr. belin. anything that you can tell us about it that you think might be relevant? mr. barnes. not that i know. mr. belin. i am now turning to barnes deposition exhibit b. what is exhibit b? mr. barnes. that is a picture showing the front of the squadcar, and also blood on the street where tippit fell. mr. belin. i wonder if you could circle with this ballpoint pen on barnes deposition exhibit b, the spot of blood where you say tippit fell? mr. barnes. (circles.) mr. belin. you have circled that in ink. now going back to barnes deposition exhibit a: earlier, sergeant barnes, you said that you tried to get some prints and you found some smears on the right side of the car. i wonder if on barnes deposition exhibit a with a red pencil you could show us the general area where you found the smears? mr. barnes. [marks with red pencil on photo.] mr. belin. you put on this print a relatively horizontal line on the right front car door immediately below the bottom part of the window, and also what i will call the right part of the top of the right-front fender near where the headlight is. mr. barnes. that is true. mr. belin. was this police car dirty or clean? mr. barnes. dirty. mr. belin. what is the fact as to whether or not this in any way affects your ability to lift fingerprints? mr. barnes. any dirty surface will create a hardship as far as lifting a latent print. mr. belin. were you able to find any identifiable prints? mr. barnes. no legible prints were found. mr. belin. when you came to the scene, officer tippit had already been removed? mr. barnes. that is true. mr. belin. anything else on barnes deposition exhibit b that you think is relevant? mr. barnes. none that i can recall at this time. mr. belin. turning to barnes deposition exhibit c, could you state what this is, please? mr. barnes. that is a picture of squad car no. , which was driven by tippit, a more distant shot showing where tippit fell, and the scene where the squad car was. mr. belin. had the tippit car been moved at any time during the taking of any of these pictures by you? mr. barnes. none that i can recall. mr. belin. anything particularly relevant about barnes deposition exhibit c that you want to further discuss at this time? mr. barnes. i believe not. mr. belin. handing you barnes deposition exhibit d, will you state what this is? mr. barnes. that is a side view of the tippit car. mr. belin. that is looking toward the driver's side, is that correct? mr. barnes. that's right. mr. belin. you see the houses in the background which would be roughly to the south, is that right? mr. barnes. that's correct. mr. belin. this is a picture of the car as you found it? mr. barnes. that's right. mr. belin. now, do you remember whether or not the window on the driver's side was up or down? mr. barnes. i believe it was down. mr. belin. was any jacket of any kind hanging in the back of the car? mr. barnes. yes; tippit's eisenhower jacket, that's what we call them, was hanging on a hanger in the back of the car. mr. belin. handing you barnes deposition exhibit e, would you state what this is? mr. barnes. this is a shot from the south looking northward at the front of the tippit car, and showing the blood shot on the pavement where tippit fell. mr. belin. this has a caption on it, "spot where patrolman tippit fell." does the arrow point to the spot to which you refer? mr. barnes. it does. mr. belin. anything else particularly relevant about barnes deposition exhibit e that you want to discuss now? mr. barnes. no. i made that one [pointing]. mr. belin. you are now referring to barnes deposition exhibit f, is that correct? mr. barnes. that is true. mr. belin. what is that a picture of? mr. barnes. that shows the rear of the tippit car, left rear, and also a view looking to the east, which covers the spot where tippit fell. mr. belin. at this time we introduce in evidence barnes deposition exhibits a, b, c, d, e, and f, and i will just have these copies with the original copy of the deposition for madam reporter. we won't ask you to make copies of these. now you mentioned out there that some cartridge cases were found, is that correct? mr. barnes. that is true. mr. belin. sergeant, i will ask you to examine commission exhibits nos. q- , q- , q- , and q- , and ask you to state whether or not there appears to be any identification marks on any of these exhibits that appear to show that they were examined or identified by you? mr. barnes. i placed "b", the best that i could, inside of the hull of exhibit --i believe it was q- and q- , as you have them identified. mr. belin. now all four of these exhibits appear to be cartridge case hulls, is that correct? mr. barnes. . caliber. mr. belin. . caliber pistol? mr. barnes. yes. mr. belin. they are kind of silver or chrome or grey in color? you can identify it that way? mr. barnes. yes. mr. belin. how many of these hulls, to the best of your recollection, did you identify out there? mr. barnes. i believe that the patrolman gave me two, and captain doughty received the third. mr. belin. the two that the patrolman gave you were the ones that you put this identification mark on the inside of? mr. barnes. yes. mr. belin. what instrument did you use to place this mark? mr. barnes. i used a diamond point pen. mr. belin. you put it on q- and q- ? mr. barnes. it looks like there are others that put their markings in there too. mr. belin. did you have anything to do with identifying either the slugs that were eventually removed from officer tippit's body, or the pistol? mr. barnes. no. mr. belin. you never put any identifying marks on those. is there anything else that you did out at the crime scene? mr. barnes. we made a crime sketch of the scene. mr. belin. you made a crime sketch of the scene? mr. barnes. yes. mr. belin. anything else? mr. barnes. no; not that i can recall at this time. mr. belin. what did you do with those cartridge case hulls, q- and q- ? mr. barnes. we placed them in our evidence room, and turned them over to the fbi. i believe special agent drain of the fbi was the agent that took them. mr. belin. anything else that you can think of that might be relevant with regard to your work at the tippit scene? mr. barnes. none. not at this time. mr. belin. well, when did leave there? mr. barnes. i don't know the exact hour that i left there, that i got through. mr. belin. where did you go? mr. barnes. i went on a major accident at veterans drive and ledbetter. mr. belin. where did you go after that? mr. barnes. back to the city hall. mr. belin. did you make any other pictures that day? mr. barnes. i don't believe i did. mr. belin. did you make any pictures with regard to the investigation of the president's assassination or the murder of officer tippit at any other time on either saturday the d or sunday the th up to the time of the shooting of oswald by jack ruby? mr. barnes. no. mr. belin. did you make any pictures of the texas theatre? mr. barnes. i did. mr. belin. when did you do those? mr. barnes. i did that the afternoon of november , as soon as i finished with the tippit car pictures. mr. belin. would you include that as part of the tippit investigation? mr. barnes. yes; that was in the same part. mr. belin. let me backtrack a minute. you may have misunderstood my question. when you finished up at east th and patton streets, you took pictures, you got shells, you said you tried to get fingerprints. did you try to do anything else at east th and patton? mr. barnes. no. mr. belin. then where did you go from east th and patton? mr. barnes. the texas theatre. mr. belin. before you got to the texas theatre, did you stop at the spot where you say this jacket was found? mr. barnes. yes. mr. belin. did you take a picture there? mr. barnes. yes. mr. belin. all right, did you take any other pictures between east th and patton and the texas theatre? mr. barnes. i took two photos of the place where the jacket was found. mr. belin. but other than that, you then went to the texas theatre? mr. barnes. yes. mr. belin. at the time you got to the texas theatre, had oswald or the person that was apprehended there already been taken away from the theatre? mr. barnes. yes. mr. belin. what did you do when you got to the theatre? mr. barnes. i photographed the interior of the theatre. mr. belin. any particular position of it that you remember? mr. barnes. the lobby and the place where the arrest was made. mr. belin. it was after that that you then went to investigate that major automobile accident? mr. barnes. yes. mr. belin. now after you investigated or took pictures at this major automobile accident, then what did you do? mr. barnes. i returned to the city hall. mr. belin. what did you do when you returned to the city hall? mr. barnes. we started working out the evidence and developing negatives of all the photos that were taken at the kennedy assassination site and also at the tippit site. mr. belin. who were you working with at that time? mr. barnes. we had just about all the manpower of the crime scene search section working. lt. j. c. day, myself, detective r. l. studebaker, detective j. b. hicks, and detective r. w. livingston. mr. belin. did you know about what time of the day you were doing this? mr. barnes. we started on it, i would say, roughly after i returned to the city hall. it was getting close to o'clock. mr. belin. where was this work done? mr. barnes. in the crime scene search section of the identification bureau. mr. belin. on what floor is that? mr. barnes. it is on the fourth floor of the city hall. mr. belin. on the fourth floor, were there any people other than police personnel? mr. barnes. not where we were; no. mr. belin. when you got there, did you see what the situation was on the third floor? mr. barnes. yes; we could. mr. belin. what was the situation on the third floor? mr. barnes. turmoil of news media, photographers. mr. belin. what do you mean by turmoil? mr. barnes. well, they just all of them trying to get up in there where they could get a shot. mr. belin. by a shot, you mean a picture? mr. barnes. yes; a photo. any photos they might get for the newspapers. in case they should get a view, they wanted to be there at the time. i presume that is what they were there for. mr. belin. was oswald on the third floor at the time? mr. barnes. yes. mr. belin. did they have wires coming through the windows for television cameras, or not? mr. barnes. there was wires running all over the city hall; cables. mr. belin. cables? mr. barnes. yes. mr. belin. what about stands for lights, were they there, too? mr. barnes. that's right, they come up with lights and also tv cameras to cover. mr. belin. when you say city hall, really the third floor that we are talking about is exclusively used by the police department, is that correct? mr. barnes. yes. mr. belin. all right, do you have any estimate of the number of newspaper people there were on the third floor at that time? mr. barnes. it would be a guess. i wouldn't want to venture to guess, because it would be just strictly guesswork. mr. belin. more than ? mr. barnes. yes. mr. belin. more than ? mr. barnes. i am not saying. i don't know. mr. belin. all right, in any event, you were working on the fourth floor? mr. barnes. yes. mr. belin. then where did you go? mr. barnes. later we went to the third floor, to the office of captain fritz. mr. belin. what did you go to captain fritz' office for? mr. barnes. to make a paraffin test of lee harvey oswald's hand. mr. belin. about when would this have been, approximately, if you know? mr. barnes. i tell you, the time didn't mean anything there, and it was after i returned to the city hall, and after o'clock. mr. belin. sometime after o'clock? mr. barnes. yes. mr. belin. did captain fritz call you up and tell you to come down and make the paraffin test? mr. barnes. he didn't talk to me. i was advised to go to that office to help make the paraffin test. mr. belin. by your supervisor? mr. barnes. yes. mr. belin. who would that have been? mr. barnes. lt. j. c. day. mr. belin. now is this the usual procedure when you are going to make a paraffin test, to go to an office such as captain fritz' office to do it? mr. barnes. no. mr. belin. what would the usual procedure be? mr. barnes. if he is alive, they usually bring them to our bureau. mr. belin. that would be to bring them up to the fourth floor? mr. barnes. yes. mr. belin. this would have necessitated, i would assume, moving the prisoner from captain fritz' office through the hallway up to the fourth floor? mr. barnes. it would. mr. belin. were there any people in the hallways at this time, or did anyone tell you why? mr. barnes. well---- mr. belin. that is, tell you why they were going to make a paraffin test down in captain fritz' office rather than in your laboratory? mr. barnes. no, sir; nobody said anything to me about it. mr. belin. was there any particular problem that you saw insofar as taking the prisoner up to your office from captain fritz' office? mr. barnes. yes; you would have to take him through the throng of newspapermen and photographers who were in the hallway. mr. belin. what is the fact as to whether this might have presented a security problem in any way? mr. barnes. it would. mr. belin. what equipment did you take down to make this paraffin test? mr. barnes. i took paraffin, the paraffin kit that we have which consists of gauze and paraphernalia that we need to make the test. mr. belin. was this your permanent equipment or your portable equipment? when i say your permanent, i mean your inplace equipment? mr. barnes. it is the same equipment we use up in our bureau, working under makeshift conditions. mr. belin. when you use the phrase "makeshift conditions"---- mr. barnes. just like putting up a portable camping ground to cook on. we have our benches to work on up at the crime scene search section which makes it handier to work with. mr. belin. would the quality of the test be the same? mr. barnes. yes; i think so. the quality would be the same, just takes a little more time and inconvenience. mr. belin. when you got down there, what did you do and see? first of all, who was in the room? mr. barnes. detective dhority and detective leavelle. mr. belin. is that l-e-a-v-e-l-l-e? mr. barnes. right. and lee harvey oswald. mr. belin. did you have any discussion, or did you hear lee harvey oswald say anything or anyone say anything to lee harvey oswald while you were there? mr. barnes. no conversation. mr. belin. what did you do? mr. barnes. we got our equipment and got the paraffin melted, and while it was being prepared, we told him that we would have to make a paraffin cast of his hand. mr. belin. what did he say to that? mr. barnes. it was okay with him. mr. belin. did he say anything as to any other comments he had about the paraffin test? mr. barnes. none other than he stated to me, "what are you trying to do, prove that i fired a gun?" and i said, "i am not trying to prove that you fired a gun. we have the test to make, and the chemical people at the laboratory, at the city-county laboratory will determine the rest of it." mr. belin. what is the purpose of a paraffin test? mr. barnes. the purpose is to find out if there is any nitrates on your hands. mr. belin. officer, how many years have you personally made paraffin tests? mr. barnes. since . mr. belin. what is the procedure by which you determine whether or not there are any nitrates on one's hand? mr. barnes. the analyses are made at parkland hospital by their personnel. mr. belin. do they analyze the wax? mr. barnes. they analyze the wax that i remove from his hands after the casts are made. mr. belin. well, if you were to take a paraffin or make a paraffin test on one of my hands, you would take melted hot wax and put it over my hands? mr. barnes. it wouldn't be hot wax. it would have to be at a degree where it would be melted. take a paint brush, small paint brush, dip it into the paraffin, and paint your hand as you would be painting a wall, and you build this paraffin up around and around your hand, front and back, until you get a layer approximately a quarter of an inch thick. then you wrap the hands in gauze, just a layer of gauze around it for reenforcement purposes such as you would put steel and concrete to reenforce it, and then on top of this gauze we put another layer of paraffin. in fact, several layers of paraffin on top of the gauze to round it out to make it more firm so that when we remove this paraffin from around his hands, we take a pair of surgical scissors and cut down each side, and it slips off just like you were removing a glove. mr. belin. you would make two cuts then, one along the side of the little finger and one along the side of the thumb? mr. barnes. well, really it is a =v=-cut on the thumb and forefinger, and a straight parallel line down the left- or right-little finger. mr. belin. on the side of the palm of the hand? mr. barnes. right. mr. belin. have you done any reading as to what this test shows and what its limitations are at all? mr. barnes. well, yes; the purpose of it is when you put the heated paraffin on the hand, for the nitrates which might be on the hand, to be stuck to the paraffin that you place on there. this paraffin that you place on the hand--i will rephrase this a little bit. when you put the paraffin on your hand, the nitrates that might be on your hands will stick to the paraffin as it cools, and when you remove the paraffin, then this nitrate or powder residue which might be on the hands will be hardened into the paraffin and will slip off with the paraffin. mr. belin. now when you say nitrates, i believe you used the word "residue"? mr. barnes. powder residue and nitrates. mr. belin. is nitrate a compound which is in gunpowder residue? mr. barnes. that is what they call the dermal nitrate test, i believe is the correct name that they give it. mr. belin. does gunpowder generally have included in it some sort of nitrate compound? mr. barnes. yes. mr. belin. if i were firing a pistol, would this pistol leave a nitrate on my hands that would be detectable by the paraffin test? mr. barnes. it should, unless it is awful tight. mr. belin. what do you mean by "awful tight"? mr. barnes. you could have an automatic which very easily could keep you from having nitrate on your hands. mr. belin. well, let's assume that we were taking a . caliber pistol. you have seen the pistol which lee harvey oswald had in his possession at the time he was apprehended. let's assume i were firing that pistol. would it leave some residue on my hand? mr. barnes. it should. mr. belin. suppose i were to wash my hands between the time i fired it and the time you took the paraffin test? mr. barnes. it would hurt the test. mr. belin. it would cut down the test? mr. barnes. yes. mr. belin. now if i were firing it, would it necessarily show on both hands? suppose i were right-handed? mr. barnes. depends on the location of your left hand. mr. belin. well, generally from your experience, is there any particular location for a right-handed person to keep his hand when he is firing a pistol? mr. barnes. police officers are taught to keep their left hand near the pistol handle. mr. belin. as an element of controlling it? mr. barnes. as an element of controlling, and also an element which, if you should get wounded in your right shoulder, you would have the left hand to take the gun. mr. belin. if you keep it near then, i assume that you would get the nitrate on the other hand, too, or not? mr. barnes. very likely that you would. mr. belin. suppose i were unloading a pistol and taking the cartridge case out and putting them in my left hand or handling the chamber where the cartridge cases had been, would this leave nitrate deposits on my hand? mr. barnes. it is possible. mr. belin. suppose you were to examine my hands and you were to find no nitrate deposits at all. would you say that this conclusively shows that i did not fire a pistol? mr. barnes. no. mr. belin. well, does it conclusively show i had not fired a pistol within the last or or hours? mr. barnes. no. mr. belin. why do you say that? mr. barnes. well, a lot would depend what kind of pistol. mr. belin. well, suppose it were a . caliber pistol? mr. barnes. then it would depend on whether you had cleaned your hands or whether you had had gloves on. mr. belin. well, suppose i were to tell you i didn't have gloves on. mr. barnes. had you washed your hands? mr. belin. well, would this make much of a difference? mr. barnes. washing your hands would make a difference. mr. belin. all right, now, suppose you were to examine me for firing a rifle such as a bolt-action rifle rather than an automatic or semiautomatic. would you expect to find nitrate residue on my hands that a paraffin test would show? mr. barnes. chances are smaller on a rifle than it would be with a revolver. mr. belin. why? mr. barnes. because your chamber is enclosed. mr. belin. what difference does that make? mr. barnes. the powder couldn't get out like a pistol where the cylinder is open, and there is no casing around the cylinder of a revolver, and the chamber of a rifle, it is enclosed with the metal all the way around. mr. belin. well, i operate the bolt on the rifle, does that make a difference about letting the gas or residue escape? mr. barnes. no; all your explosives have already gone down the barrel. it is not coming down the side when you operate the chamber. there is no pressure there. mr. belin. what you are saying then is, that it is the pressure at the time of firing in an open chamber that creates the major portion of this residue? mr. barnes. that's right. mr. belin. if you were to have a positive nitrate test on a person's hands, and by positive, i mean it would show the presence of nitrate, would you say, without knowing anything about the firearm that the person fired, that it was more likely that he had fired a . caliber revolver, or a bolt-action rifle? i mean a nonautomatic revolver? mr. barnes. let me get your question to see if i am correct. if there were nitrates present? mr. belin. yes. mr. barnes. in my own mind would i come to the conclusion that it would probably come from a revolver? rather than a rifle? mr. belin. well, nonautomatic revolver, as opposed to a rifle. which would be more likely? mr. barnes. the revolver would be more likely. mr. belin. now you said that you took the paraffin casts off the hands. do you generally take it of both hands when you take a paraffin test? mr. barnes. yes; we do. mr. belin. when you take a usual paraffin test, do you take it of any other part of the body other than the hands? mr. barnes. no. mr. belin. in this case, did you take it of any other portion of the body other than the hands? mr. barnes. yes; i did. mr. belin. what other portion of the body did you take it of? mr. barnes. the right side of his cheek and face. mr. belin. the right side of lee harvey oswald's cheek and face? mr. barnes. yes. mr. belin. who directed you to take it there? mr. barnes. captain fritz. mr. belin. did he particularly say why he wanted it taken there? mr. barnes. i didn't ask the questions why he wanted it. i was ordered to take it from him, and i took it because i had the order to take the test. mr. belin. was there an order to take the left cheek also, or not? mr. barnes. no. mr. belin. how long did you say that you had been making paraffin tests? mr. barnes. since . mr. belin. roughly, how many of those do you do in a month on an average? mr. barnes. it would be hard to say. if i hit it lucky, i won't make too many. if it hits on some other man's duty. it would be hard to say how many i have made over a period of time. i can say that i have made many. mr. belin. over these years, do you think you have made as many as ? mr. barnes. it would be hard to say. i am not going to go into any actual figures because it would be guesswork. mr. belin. well, let me ask you this. of the paraffin tests that you have made, how many have you made of a cheek or cheeks? mr. barnes. one. mr. belin. was that with lee harvey oswald? mr. barnes. it was. mr. belin. other than that, you have never made a paraffin test of anyone's cheek? mr. barnes. no. mr. belin. any particular reason why you might not have in any other case? mr. barnes. it has never been requested of me before. mr. belin. based on your knowledge and information about the science of paraffin tests, do you know whether or not it is a common practice or not a common practice to make it of one cheek? mr. barnes. it is not a common practice. mr. belin. any particular reason it is not a common practice, that you can think of or know of? mr. barnes. firing a revolver, should he fire a revolver, i would say the revolver most likely would be far enough away where powder residue wouldn't reach his cheek? mr. belin. what about a rifle? mr. barnes. firing a rifle, you get your chamber enclosed with steel metal around it, and the chances of powder residue would be very remote. mr. belin. have you fired a bolt-action rifle at all before? mr. barnes. many times. mr. belin. how close would the chamber be to the cheek as you would be looking through the sight of the gun. mr. barnes. be several inches to the rear of the chamber. mr. belin. would this have any effect on the paraffin test at all? mr. barnes. it sure would. mr. belin. what about telescopic sights? would that push your face back further or not? mr. barnes. push it even further back. mr. belin. would this have an effect on the paraffin test? mr. barnes. the further you get from the chamber, the less possibility of getting powder residue on it would be. mr. belin. when you made the paraffin cast on the cheek, did you also paint it on with this brush that you are talking about? mr. barnes. i did. mr. belin. to about a quarter of an inch thickness? mr. barnes. not quite that much. mr. belin. when you put the gauze on? mr. barnes. yes. mr. belin. and you put some more paraffin on? mr. barnes. yes. mr. belin. then what did you do? did you cool it with water, or let it naturally harden by room temperature? mr. barnes. nature cools it from room temperature. mr. belin. then you removed it from the cheek? mr. barnes. yes. mr. belin. did you need a scissors when you removed it from the cheek? mr. barnes. no. mr. belin. what did you do with these paraffin tests after you made them? mr. barnes. i placed them in a manila, large manila envelope separately. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. barnes. i walked out of captain fritz' office, and i had a couple of patrolmen trying to weed their way through the news media so that i could have walking room to get to the elevator to get back to the fourth floor, the id bureau. mr. belin. the news media had the third floor pretty well jammed at that time? mr. barnes. i would say it was pretty well jammed. mr. belin. about what time of the night was this? mr. barnes. approximately o'clock, i would say, approximately. mr. belin. did lee harvey oswald say anything to you as you were removing these casts, that you remember? mr. barnes. very little, other than what i repeated to you before, that he knew what i was trying to do, and that i was wasting my time, that he didn't know anything about what we were accusing him of. mr. belin. did lee harvey oswald leave captain fritz' office at that time or did he stay there? mr. barnes. i didn't go back, i couldn't tell you. mr. belin. he didn't come out with you, did he? mr. barnes. no. mr. belin. were any remarks of any kind made to you by any of the people in the hallway, nonpolice officers, as you left the office? questions or remarks or what have you? mr. barnes. yes. mr. belin. what did they say? mr. barnes. they kept storming questions at me, "what have you got in that sack, what have you got in that sack, you owe it to the news media to give it to us, what have you got in that sack?" mr. belin. would this just come from one person? mr. barnes. all of them. mr. belin. about how many of them were there at that time? mr. barnes. they had the hallways blocked. mr. belin. did you reply to them at all or not? mr. barnes. i didn't answer. mr. belin. you then went up to the fourth floor to the lab, is that correct? mr. barnes. that is true. mr. belin. what did you do then? mr. barnes. i initialed the cast, sealed them, and placed them in our locked evidence room. mr. belin. where did they go after that? mr. barnes. they go to our city-county laboratory for analysis. mr. belin. where is that city-county laboratory? mr. barnes. at parkland hospital. mr. belin. do you know when they went there? mr. barnes. the following morning. mr. belin. did you get the results from this analysis at all? mr. barnes. the results were obtained by our bureau. i didn't get the results. mr. belin. do you know what these results were? mr. barnes. i understand--i haven't seen them personally--but i understand they are positive, the ones of his hands. mr. belin. by positive, you mean they showed the presence of nitrates? mr. barnes. they showed the presence of nitrates. mr. belin. what about the one on the cheek? mr. barnes. the one of his cheek was negative. mr. belin. were any conclusions made because of either the positive results from the test on his hands or the negative result on the test of the cheek? mr. barnes. in my own mind, i didn't expect any positive report from the cheek to start with. but to cut down criticism and to satisfy the public and to show the world that we tried to cover it very well, we did it for possibly any future--i don't know how to word it--any complaints that might come later on. mr. belin. by complaints, you mean people that might---- mr. barnes. might question why you did or why you didn't do it on something this big. we felt like the public should know that we done the best that we knew how. mr. belin. even though you didn't expect to have results? mr. barnes. i didn't personally, and i am the one that made it. from my experience with paraffin casts and from my experience in shooting rifles, common sense will tell you that a man firing a rifle has got very little chance of getting powder residue on his cheek. mr. belin. have you ever made a paraffin cast of your cheek after you fired a rifle? mr. barnes. no; i have not. mr. belin. have you ever made a paraffin test of anyone else's cheek after that person fired a rifle? mr. barnes. i believe i am on record that that is the first paraffin test i ever made of a cheek. mr. belin. have you ever read periodicals discussing the paraffin test? any limitations of its use to determine whether or not a person fired a rifle by making a cast of the cheek? mr. barnes. no; i haven't read anything about it. mr. belin. basically then, your reasons for reaching this conclusion are your own personal reasons? mr. barnes. that's right. mr. belin. what you earlier described as the chamber being an enclosed chamber, is that it? mr. barnes. that is true. mr. belin. which you said that the gases would not come out of under pressure, and when the chamber would be open for the ejection of a shell from a bolt-action rifle, at that time there would be no bad pressure? mr. barnes. all your pressure is gone forward through your barrel. there is no pressure on the chamber when you operate it after the shot is fired. mr. belin. in contrast with a nonautomatic revolver, when i pull the trigger, is the back of the chamber open then? mr. barnes. it is open. mr. belin. is there any other information or opinion you can give us with regard to the paraffin tests that might be relevant. anything you can think of, whether or not i have asked it? mr. barnes. i believe you have covered just about everything. mr. belin. i call myself a country lawyer, and i don't know. mr. barnes. i am a country boy. i was raised on the farm myself. mr. belin. well, maybe we both have something in common. mr. barnes. still live there. mr. belin. sergeant, did you make any other tests or obtain any other evidence or information from lee harvey oswald other than the paraffin that you made? mr. barnes. i obtained palm prints from lee harvey oswald. mr. belin. when did you do this? mr. barnes. immediately before we made--no, immediately after, i am sorry, immediately after we made the paraffin test. mr. belin. i would assume you did it afterwards? mr. barnes. that is right. it was after we made the tests. mr. belin. now, when you used the phrase a while ago--i mean that when we were discussing shortly before we were taking this deposition just what you did do insofar as your being involved in this investigation---- mr. barnes. that's right. mr. belin. in that discussion did i in any way tell you what to say, or did you just tell me what you did in the nature of the proceedings here? mr. barnes. i told you just what i did. i haven't been prompted by no one. mr. belin. now, what did you do when you took the palm print? mr. barnes. we took them back upstairs to the id bureau for comparison purposes. mr. belin. at the time you carried back the paraffin casts? mr. barnes. no. we came back and got the palm prints after i delivered the paraffin tests upstairs. mr. belin. again, would this be normal procedure to take a palm print in captain fritz' office as opposed to your own laboratory? mr. barnes. no; it would be something different. usually we have them coming up to our identification bureau for that purpose. mr. belin. any particular reason that you know of why lee harvey oswald wasn't brought up to your identification bureau? mr. barnes. yes. mr. belin. what? mr. barnes. security. mr. belin. because of the people in the hall? mr. barnes. the news media in the hallways, and danger of removing lee harvey oswald through the mass of newspapermen. mr. belin. did the newspapermen say anything to you as you went down the hallway to captain fritz' office? mr. barnes. everytime that you went through there they asked you all kinds of questions on what you had and what were you doing and how much longer is it going to take, and what have you proved. mr. belin. did you answer any of these questions? mr. barnes. no; i did not. mr. belin. what did you do when you got back in the office in captain fritz' office? what did you find there? who did you find in captain fritz' office when you came back? mr. barnes. same two officers that i mentioned, besides detective dhority and detective leavelle. mr. belin. was lee oswald present? mr. barnes. lee oswald was present. mr. belin. did you have any conversation with oswald at that time? mr. barnes. none other than telling him that i had to have palm prints of his hand. mr. belin. did he have anything to say about that? mr. barnes. cooperative. mr. belin. what is the fact as to whether he made any objection to the taking of any palm prints? mr. barnes. none whatsoever. mr. belin. did he request that he have an attorney present at all, or not? mr. barnes. he didn't request one. he would not sign the fingerprint card when i asked him. we have a place on this card for the prisoner's signature, and i asked him would he please sign that, and he said he wouldn't sign anything until he talked to an attorney. mr. belin. did he ask for an attorney or say anything about an attorney when you took the paraffin test? mr. barnes. none to me. mr. belin. what did you say when he said he would not sign the fingerprint card? mr. barnes. that was all right with me. mr. belin. did you just take the palm prints, or did you also take fingerprints? mr. barnes. we took both. mr. belin. what is your process of doing that? mr. barnes. rolling his hands, an ink roller over his palm, and then we have a metal cylinder bar about an inch in diameter that we place the card on and then roll his hands to make it print on the fingerprint card. mr. belin. have you ever taken palm prints before? mr. barnes. many times. mr. belin. based on your knowledge and information, what is the fact as to whether or not palm prints are distinct means of identification of a person? mr. barnes. just as good as fingerprints the only thing that i could add to that would be, there is no way of classifying palm prints, where with fingerprints, we have the system where we classify them and can go look them up. mr. belin. is there anything else that you can offer with reference to the investigation of the assassination or the shooting of officer tippit other than the paraffin test and the palm and fingerprint tests that you took? mr. barnes. none that i can think of right now, other than printing pictures of both killings. mr. belin. do you remember anything else that lee oswald said other than the fact he would not sign his name to the card? mr. barnes. he had very little to say. mr. belin. is there anything else you can think of, whether i have asked it or not, that in anyway might be relevant to this investigation here? mr. barnes. not that i can think of at this time. mr. belin. now were you on duty on sunday morning, november ? mr. barnes. no; i was not. mr. belin. was there any general comment among the police officers, what i call the line officers, about the presence of the press in the police headquarters building during this period of time? mr. barnes. yes; we discussed it. mr. belin. without mentioning any names which might embarrass any individual, and without necessarily quoting yourself, what was the general nature or tenor of that discussion? mr. barnes. disgusted. mr. belin. was there any objections that were voiced about this, or not? mr. barnes. yes; there were. mr. belin. what is the fact as to whether or not the presence of the press in any way affected the handling of this matter by the police department? mr. barnes. it would be just like you carrying on your work in your office when you had it full of newspapermen or anybody else, as far as that is concerned. mr. belin. were there people other than newspapermen generally in the police headquarters? mr. barnes. it is hard to tell just who was who. mr. belin. now you were not there at the time of the shooting of lee harvey oswald by jack ruby, were you? mr. barnes. no; i was not. mr. belin. did you see the television showing of the film that ran during the--during that time? mr. barnes. yes; i did. mr. belin. you have had some experience, you said earlier, as a photographer, i believe, is that correct? mr. barnes. yes. mr. belin. what is the fact as to whether or not the presence of light such as you say you saw in the movie film that you saw--what is the fact as to whether or not the presence of these lights would affect the ability of officers protecting lee harvey oswald to discern movements of people? mr. barnes. very much. mr. belin. in what way? mr. barnes. blinding them. the flash from the many cameras that were present in the basement of the city hall, the lights set up by your tv cameramen, all of this would work against the officers in safeguarding any prisoner. mr. belin. is there anything else you can think of with reference to the security matters of lee harvey oswald that might be relevant here other than your statements about the press and the problems of light? mr. barnes. other than the movement of him with the throngs of press men, which the security i thought was very good. mr. belin. anything else you can think of right now? mr. barnes. none that i can think of at this time. mr. belin. is there anything else that you care to add in this deposition that might in any way be helpful or relevant? mr. barnes. i think this pretty well covers it. mr. belin. well, we want to thank you very much for your cooperation in coming down here, sergeant. mr. barnes. i am glad to come. hate to come under these circumstances. mr. belin. we hate to be here under these circumstances. it is not a pleasant job for any of us, but it is a job that has to be done. all right, sir. i forgot to say that you have a right to, if you like, to read your deposition and sign it, or else you can waive reading and have the court reporter send it to us in washington. mr. barnes. i believe i will come back and let her show it to me, and i will sign it then. testimony of j. b. hicks the testimony of j. b. hicks was taken at : p.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by messrs. joseph a. ball and samuel a. stern, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. ball. please stand up and hold up your right hand. (witness complying.) mr. ball. do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give here today will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. hicks. i do. mr. ball. will you state your name, please, and your address? mr. hicks. j. b. hicks, matilda, dallas. mr. ball. what is your occupation? mr. hicks. i am with the police department, city of dallas. mr. ball. you are with the special section of the department? mr. hicks. the identification bureau; yes, sir. mr. ball. how long have you been with the identification bureau? mr. hicks. let's see, about, a little over years now. mr. ball. tell me about yourself--where you were born. mr. hicks. i was born in irving, tex., which is a suburb out here of dallas, september , . mr. ball. what was your education? mr. hicks. i finished high school, sir. mr. ball. then what did you do? mr. hicks. then--you mean where i went to work and from there? mr. ball. yes. mr. hicks. i worked a short while for sanger bros., i believe or months or so, then i was employed by higgenbotham-bailey logan co. which is a wholesale company here in dallas; from there i went to work with the police department where i have been for a little over years now. mr. ball. what kind of work do you do with the crime lab? mr. hicks. i do the usual, oh, photography work, fingerprint comparisons, darkroom work and anything that might come under the crime lab; the crime scene, search duties. mr. ball. you work under lieutenant day? mr. hicks. i work under lieutenant day; yes, sir. mr. ball. on november , , were you on duty? mr. hicks. no, sir; i was off duty that day. mr. ball. but you were called back to duty? mr. hicks. yes, sir. mr. ball. what time of day? mr. hicks. i had--my wife, i believe it was called me from her work. she had heard of the happening and knowing that i was off, of course, she figured i would be called, so when she called me, i called in to lieutenant knight, who is also in the identification bureau, and told him that i was getting ready and if they needed me to report, to call me and tell me where to go to, and so he did. oh, i don't know exactly how long it had taken place and the exact time that he did call me. the time right there, i can't recall. i know i did get to work somewhere around . mr. ball. where did you go to work, at the crime lab? mr. hicks. no, sir; they told me to report directly to elm and houston. mr. ball. did you go down there? mr. hicks. yes, sir. mr. ball. when you went down there what did you find? mr. hicks. lieutenant day--well, first i saw chief lumpkin, who told me lieutenant day was there in the building and to report to him on the sixth floor, i believe it was and he and detective studebaker, i believe it was were the two that were still on that particular floor. mr. ball. day and studebaker? mr. hicks. yes. mr. ball. did you do some work with them? mr. hicks. yes; there was--well, no. lieutenant day was dusting several items around there for fingerprints at the time and mr. studebaker had taken some pictures and was still taking a few others. i assisted him in moving the equipment back and forth and i don't know, i don't believe i actually took any of the pictures upstairs; however, i was there when some of them were taken. mr. ball. there were three exploded cartridge hulls on the floor, weren't there? mr. hicks. yes; i am not sure; i believe they had already been picked up and removed when i arrived. mr. ball. do you know who picked them up? mr. hicks. no, sir; i don't know off hand. mr. ball. did you later see them in your laboratory? mr. hicks. i believe i saw one of the particular ones there that night. mr. ball. you did? mr. hicks. yes, sir. mr. ball. did you examine it? mr. hicks. no, sir; i did not. i think lieutenant day had all of them. mr. ball. do you do ballistics work in your laboratory? mr. hicks. no, sir; we have no facilities for firing or testfiring any of the guns there. mr. ball. did you do any identification work on either the assassination of president kennedy or the investigation of tippit's murder? mr. hicks. do you mean as far as fingerprints? mr. ball. yes; and things of that sort. mr. hicks. let me see now, i took a set of oswald's prints from him that night some time. i do not recall. mr. ball. o'clock or so? mr. hicks. it was some time in that area. mr. ball. where were you when you took the prints? mr. hicks. i was in captain fritz' office. in other words, i made those on an inkless pad. that's a pad we use for fingerprinting people without the black ink that they make for the records. mr. ball. what else did you do there? mr. hicks. i was one of the two who made the paraffin cast on oswald. mr. ball. you and who else? mr. hicks. sergeant barnes. mr. ball. have you ever done that before, the paraffin cast? mr. hicks. oh, yes, sir. mr. ball. did oswald protest any or did he permit you to do that? mr. hicks. no, sir; he was willing and had no comment on it as far as the making of them. mr. ball. did you test the paraffin cast; did you make any test on it? mr. hicks. no, sir; that's done by the lab at parkland hospital which lieutenant alexander, i believe is in charge there. mr. ball. but you did not do it yourself? mr. hicks. no, sir. mr. ball. what has been your experience with paraffin casts? how accurate are they in determining whether or not a person has fired a firearm previously? mr. hicks. my own personal opinion is that it is not an exact conclusive evidence that, if you are familiar with that test, anything containing nitrate might show up on a test of that sort. mr. ball. is it usual to find any trace of nitrate on the face if a rifle has been fired? mr. hicks. that is the first time that i had the opportunity to make a paraffin test on a person's face. mr. ball. you never made one before? mr. hicks. never before. mr. ball. the other tests were always on the hands? mr. hicks. yes, sir. mr. ball. was there some reason for that? mr. hicks. i had never had the occasion arise that i know of where anyone had that suggested, that a paraffin test be made of a cheek. on other occasions they were only interested in the hand. mr. ball. did you do anything else with respect to the investigation? mr. hicks. i don't recall anything outstanding that i did in the investigation further there. now, i know we were all pretty well busy there until about or : in the morning but most of it was, i would imagine regular officework and just back and forth if someone had asked did we get a picture of this and picture of that; well, i can't recall any other particular item that i might have done. mr. ball. were you present when oswald was arraigned in the identification bureau? mr. hicks. no, sir; i left just a few minutes before that, i understand. mr. ball. what time did you leave; do you know? mr. hicks. i left it was shortly after . i don't know the exact time, maybe : . mr. ball. you think he was arraigned after you left? mr. hicks. i am rather certain that he was because i believe i would have known about it had he been arraigned before i left because there is only one door in our office to go out and had any other group been there, i would have noticed it, i believe. mr. ball. did you talk to oswald any? mr. hicks. i only asked him his name when i made his fingerprints and i did not question him or go to any details on talking to him. mr. ball. you were not present at any showups of oswald? mr. hicks. no, sir. mr. ball. did you make any fingerprint study in this case or palmprint study? mr. hicks. no, sir--any comparisons to the prints that we had? mr. ball. yes. mr. hicks. no, sir; i did not. mr. ball. you did not compare the prints you took of oswald with any specimen that might have been taken from the texas school book depository? mr. hicks. no, sir; i did not. mr. ball. did you ever see a paper sack in the items that were taken from the texas school book depository building? mr. hicks. paper bag? mr. ball. paper bag. mr. hicks. no, sir; i did not. it seems like there was some chicken bones or maybe a lunch; no, i believe that someone had gathered it up. mr. ball. well, this was another type of bag made out of brown paper; did you ever see it? mr. hicks. no, sir; i don't believe i did. i don't recall it. mr. ball. i believe that's all, mr. hicks. mr. hicks. all right. mr. ball. this will be written up and submitted to you for signature if you want, or you can waive signature; which do you prefer? mr. hicks. well, when would i have to come back to sign this? mr. ball. probably next week sometime. mr. hicks. well, that will be all right. mr. ball. suit yourself, either way. if you want to waive signature it's all right with us or if you want to come back. mr. hicks. i will come back. mr. ball. all right, she will notify you. thanks very much. testimony of harry d. holmes the testimony of harry d. holmes was taken at p.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. david w. belin, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. belin. sir, would you rise and raise your right hand and be sworn. do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. holmes. i do, sir. mr. belin. would you please state your name for the record? mr. holmes. harry d. holmes. mr. belin. where do you live, mr. holmes? mr. holmes. mcmanus, dallas, tex. mr. belin. what is your occupation? mr. holmes. postal inspector. mr. belin. for the u.s. post office department? mr. holmes. yes, sir. mr. belin. how old are you? mr. holmes. i am . mr. belin. what is your educational background? did you go to high school here? mr. holmes. i graduated from high school in kansas city, and went years to william jewell college at liberty, mo., and went almost through my third year in kansas city. went to dental college in kansas city. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. holmes. well, all that time i was working in the post office as a clerk, and about that time the war broke out and i went into the postal inspection service in april , and have been a postal inspector ever since. mr. belin. have you been in dallas ever since then? mr. holmes. no; i came here july , . i have been here ever since. mr. belin. where were you on november , , around noon or so. that is the day of the assassination? mr. holmes. i was in my office on the fifth floor of the terminal annex building, located at the corner of houston and commerce streets, dallas, tex. mr. belin. houston and commerce streets in dallas. now, where is commerce with relation to elm? mr. holmes. commerce, main, elm--two blocks. mr. belin. so commerce would be two blocks south of elm? mr. holmes. that's right. mr. belin. on what corner is your building? mr. holmes. it is on the northeast corner. mr. belin. the northeast corner? mr. holmes. yes; well, now, wait a minute. mr. belin. i mean the building itself. mr. holmes. this is the reflecting pool, and here is the underpass, comes down like this, and this is elm, and this is main, and this is commerce, and my building is right here. right here is the school book. mr. belin. this is north? mr. holmes. yes; that is "cattywampus." this would be the southwest corner. mr. belin. all right. you have now corrected your testimony by drawing a diagram. what corner is this? mr. holmes. southwest. mr. belin. on what side of the building is your office where you were sitting? mr. holmes. on the north side. mr. belin. from your office looking north, what building would you see? mr. holmes. the texas school book depository building. and i am on the fifth floor of my building. mr. belin. were you on the fifth floor about the time the motorcade was coming down main street? mr. holmes. yes, sir. mr. belin. did you see the motorcade turn from main onto houston? mr. holmes. yes; i did. mr. belin. what direction did it turn on houston? mr. holmes. it turned north on houston to elm, and then turned left on elm. mr. belin. to go down to the triple underpass? mr. holmes. that's right. mr. belin. about how fast was the motorcade going when you saw it, if you have any estimate on it? mr. holmes. i would say miles an hour. mr. belin. would you describe what you saw and heard then? mr. holmes. as it came out of main street, the president was sitting on the right in the back seat. his wife was on the left. governor connally, whom i also recognized, was sitting on the right of the middle seat. mr. belin. were you looking with the aid of any optical instrument? mr. holmes. i had a pair of - / x binoculars. they were acknowledging the applause of the crowd and kind of waving, but not standing up. this is a short block. mr. belin. from main to elm? mr. holmes. to elm is really not more than a good full block, but the motorcade turned north on houston and went to elm and turned left on elm where it started on a downgrade to what we refer to as a triple underpass. as it turned in front of the school book depository, i heard what to me sounded like firecrackers, and it was my recollection that there were three of them. i had my binoculars on this car, on the presidential car all the time. i realized something was wrong, but i thought they were dodging somebody throwing things at the car like firecrackers or something, but i did see dust fly up like a firecracker had burst up in the air. mr. belin. where did you see the dust? mr. holmes. off of president kennedy and i couldn't tell you which one of the cracks of the firecracker resulted in this. mr. belin. do you have any recollection of the amount of time that elapsed between each of the three sounds? mr. holmes. i have tried to set a time, but it just escapes me. honestly, i couldn't say. they were rather rapid. say seconds or something like that. mr. belin. you mean seconds elapsed between all three, or less than seconds? mr. holmes. possibly seconds, or half a minute and then crack and kind of a lapse and then another crack. i wouldn't want to swear to that. i have tried to recall it. mr. belin. was there more time between the first and the second one, or between the second and third? mr. holmes. i couldn't tell you that. mr. belin. what did you see after that? mr. holmes. mr. kennedy leaned over against his wife, mrs. kennedy, as this thing, firecracker, looked like, come out. the car almost came to a stop, and mrs. kennedy pulled loose of him and crawled out over the turtleback of this presidential car and was almost off of the back of the turtleback when a man from a car next to it came running up and i never--i got the impression in one way that she was trying to help him on the bumper. i got the impression in another way that he was trying to push her back in the seat for fear she would fall and hurt herself. it was so quick that that was my impression, and in fact we discussed it. there was several of us looking out of the window, why she was going out over this car, and we were arguing that she was trying to help the secret service man or the secret service man was trying to get her back in the car, and this was our impression. policemen jumped off of the motorcycles that were along the route and with drawn pistols started rushing into the crowd. i saw many people down on the ground, and i have one particular couple in mind that i had watched on a bench, sitting on a park bench that the man had this woman down. i remember my impression at the time that he was trying to take a gun away from her, or something, and by that time i decided maybe there was a gun involved in it instead of firecrackers. he had her down on the ground. but then it later developed that he was trying to protect her from the shots. but then i didn't know that at the time. and i did watch her as they got up. then different people hid around behind pillars in this arbor. mr. belin. then what did you see happen? mr. holmes. then just people went from every direction hunting around the railroad yard and among the cars parked in the area. i saw a policeman rushing into the school book depository building. mr. belin. was this a motorcycle policemen? mr. holmes. i did definitely see motorcycle policemen, one of--one or two or three--with their white helmets, and these motorcycle uniforms rushed up in the crowd with drawn pistols. and i thought maybe they might have been shooting to frighten the people. mr. belin. where did the noise sound like it came from? mr. holmes. it reverberated among the buildings and i couldn't tell you. it sounded like from the crowd over there. mr. belin. anything else happen that afternoon that you think is important insofar as the investigation of the assassination is concerned? mr. holmes. i watched for hours from that vantage point up there with my binoculars, hoping i would see someone running across the railroad tracks, or maybe that i could get word to the police as to where they were, because it was like a birdseye view of the panorama of the whole area. mr. belin. did you see anyone run across the railroad track? mr. holmes. no. i saw nothing suspicious and i am a trained suspicioner. mr. belin. i want to see what the court reporter has down in her notes. now, what was the next contact you had with anything connected with the assassination or the investigation? mr. holmes. i never quit. i didn't get to bed for days. mr. belin. tell us what you did that you feel might be important that we should record here. mr. holmes. of course i was in contact with the chief inspector in washington, who was listening to the radio reports, and i remember once he called and he said, "well, now, could the shots have come from the terminal annex building. has your office been shaken out, the annex." of course we gave that attention but there was nothing of any nature there of any importance. i was doing all i could to help other agencies. one of the box clerks downstairs came up after an hour or so when the radio reports came in about the apprehension of lee oswald following the shooting of officer tippit, and said, "i think you ought to know, mr. holmes, that we rented a box downstairs to a lee oswald recently, and it is box number so-and-so". that was my first tip that he had a box downstairs in the terminal annex. that box is no. . mr. belin. i am handing you what has been marked as holmes deposition exhibit no. . i will ask you to state what this is. mr. holmes. that is a photo copy of the original box rental application completed by lee h. oswald covering box no. , which he completed on november the st, . mr. belin. where it says, date of application, that you gave, is it not? mr. holmes. yes. mr. belin. i notice over here in--a notation on the side - - , with some initials on it. do you know what that is? mr. holmes. those are my initials and they indicate that i took the original box application from the post office records on that date. mr. belin. what did you do with it? mr. holmes. i turned it over to an fbi agent at a later date. i don't know when. mr. belin. did any particular employee ever remember actually dealing with lee oswald? mr. holmes. he could not recall what the man looked like. he couldn't identify him from what he later saw his pictures in the paper. he could not identify him as actually being the man that rented the box, because i have talked to him about it. mr. belin. now, on deposition exhibit , for the name of the firm or the corporation, it says, "fair play for cuba committee" and "american civil liberties union," is that correct? mr. holmes. that's correct. mr. belin. and kind of business, it says, "nonprofit," is that correct? mr. holmes. that's correct. mr. belin. then business address, there is a dash running through there, and home address is " north beckley," is that correct? mr. holmes. that's correct. that is the address he gave as the residential address when he rented the box. mr. belin. then there is a signature "lee h. oswald," with the date of november , ? mr. holmes. this clerk told me that the man definitely filled this thing out himself. mr. belin. does the clerk remember seeing it? mr. holmes. yes. mr. belin. there is a stamp, which i assume is your post office stamp, that says on there, "date box opened, november , ," and the box number is written in as " ". mr. holmes. that's right. mr. belin. there--is there less charge for a nonprofit organization box than there is for anything else? mr. holmes. no. that box went closed for lack of payment of rent on december . mr. belin. what year? mr. holmes. of . mr. belin. after you found out that this was his box, did you keep any surveillance on it? mr. holmes. we kept a -hour, round-the-clock surveillance from about well into sunday, i think, days. mr. belin. that is the sunday that lee harvey oswald was shot? mr. holmes. yes, sir. mr. belin. how many box keys were given out, according to your records, for the box? mr. holmes. one. mr. belin. was that one ever turned back to you? mr. holmes. no. mr. belin. when was that? mr. holmes. didn't the police have it? i saw it--yes. mr. belin. you saw it at the police department? mr. holmes. i asked them about it, and he asked could this be it? i had taken the duplicate key with me to see if i could match it. they have numbers on them and i did. the detective pulled it out and said, "is this it," in the presence of captain fritz, and i matched the numbers, and it was. mr. belin. were the numbers the same for the box number as the key number? mr. holmes. no; it was a key number. fritz kept it with the evidence. mr. belin. anything else about this box or the application, deposition exhibit here? mr. holmes. only that an occasional russian newspaper was received in that box after we began to watch it from then on until it was closed. no first-class mail. what is "the daily worker," sir? it's been the "daily worker," now. mr. belin. there was some newspaper that came? well--some american newspaper? mr. holmes. it is what used to be "the daily worker," came, and a couple of russian newspapers came there. mr. belin. anything else? mr. holmes. from minsk. that was her hometown, marina's hometown in russia. mr. belin. is there anything else in connection with this box and this application that you care to talk about? mr. holmes. no. mr. belin. then what was the next thing that you had contact with pertaining to the assassination? mr. holmes. saturday morning---- mr. belin. this would be november ? mr. holmes. twenty-third. i came into the lobby of the terminal annex, and the postal inspector that was on duty mentioned that the fbi agent had called to inquire as to how they could obtain an original post office money order. he said he had told them that they would have to get it in washington, but would have to know the number of the post office money order. so he was worrying then as to how he could get that number. so i knew about the post office money order. they said that oswald--they said that also this fbi agent had passed on the information that, i don't know whether he told him or i called the fbi after--i went on up to my office, but somewhere i got the information that the fbi had knowledge that a gun of this particular italian make and caliber had been purchased from klein's sporting goods in chicago, that it had been purchased, and the fbi furnished me the information that a money order of some description in the amount of $ . had been used as reimbursement for the gun that had been purchased from klein's in chicago, and that the purchase date was march , . i immediately had some men begin to search the dallas money order records with the thought that they might have used a u.s. postal money order to buy this gun. i didn't have any luck, so along about o'clock in the morning, saturday, i had my boys call the postal inspector. oh, wait a minute, let's back up. i had my secretary go out and purchase about half a dozen books on outdoor-type magazines such as field and stream, with the thought that i might locate this gun to identify it, and i did. mr. belin. you have what magazine? mr. holmes. field and stream of november . mr. belin. you found a field and stream magazine of just november ? mr. holmes. it was the current magazine on the rack. mr. belin. you got it to look for a gun and identified it in this magazine? is this the page? i will call it holmes deposition exhibit . mr. holmes. here, page . mr. belin. well, it is on the back of a page numbered , is that right? mr. holmes. that's right. mr. belin. or the front side. i am marking on the top of it, "holmes deposition exhibit ." was that the page you tore out? mr. holmes. yes, sir. mr. belin. i notice there is a magazine or there is a number of guns identified on that page. mr. holmes. yes, sir. mr. belin. i see one circled in red, is that correct? mr. holmes. that's correct. mr. belin. who circled that in red? mr. holmes. i did. mr. belin. then i see that it is a picture with a gun with a scope on it and it says, " . italian carbine," in big black letters. and underneath it says, "late military issue. only inches overall. weighs lbs. shows only slight use, test-fired and head spaced, ready for shooting. turned-down bolt -shot, clip fed, rear sight." and it is marked "$ . ." mr. holmes. with scope, it is $ . . mr. belin. there is a number. that $ . says "c - ." and underneath that it says, "c - , carbine with brand new x- / " diameter (illustrated) $ . ." is that right? mr. holmes. that's correct. mr. belin. then on the lower right-hand corner of the page there is a kind of place for clipping out of coupons. it is marked "klein's sporting goods at west washington street, chicago , illinois," then there is a place for a box to be checked. it says, "cash customers, send check or money order in full. unless otherwise specified, send $ . postage and handling on any size order ... $ . on shotgun and rifles." then there is a place at the bottom of the page. it is a place for putting the name and address and the city and state, is that correct? mr. holmes. that's correct. mr. belin. now i notice on a piece of scrap paper you have taken the $ . which would be the exact amount for the rifle with the scope, and then added the $ . for the charge that the coupon says for postage and handling and you come up with a total of $ . . i thought you said the fbi said $ . ? mr. holmes. he had, and that was the amount of money order i had been looking for. so i had my postal inspector in charge call our chicago office and suggested that he get an inspector out to klein's sporting goods and recheck it for accuracy, that if our looking at the right gun in the magazine, they were looking for the wrong money order. mr. belin. so what happened? mr. holmes. so in about an hour postal inspector mcgee of chicago called back then and said that the correct amount was $ . --$ . --excuse me, and that the shipping--they had received this money order on march the th, whereas i had been looking for march . so then i passed the information to the men who were looking for this money order stub to show which would designate, which would show the number of the money order, and that is the only way you could find one. i relayed this information to them and told them to start on the th because he could have bought it that morning and that he could have gotten it by airmail that afternoon, so they began to search and within minutes they called back and said they had a money order in that amount issued on, i don't know that i show, but it was that money order in an amount issued at the main post office, which is the same place as this post office box was at that time, box and the money order had been issued early on the morning of march the th, . mr. belin. to whom? mr. holmes. they are issued in blank. he has to fill it in. mr. belin. does it say the name of the person who is purchased--purchasing---- mr. holmes. no; you don't get---- mr. belin. he had to fill it in himself? mr. holmes. yes. mr. belin. you mentioned another post office box, and a new number there. when was that? mr. holmes. just now? mr. belin. yes, no. ? mr. holmes. that is the box he had rented at the main post office before he went to new orleans? mr. belin. when you say the main post office, what city and state? mr. holmes. dallas, tex. mr. belin. when did you learn about this, if you remember? mr. holmes. i don't know that i can tell. some clerk was passing information to me and also it could have been that mcgee, this inspector said it was sent to box , in dallas. i couldn't tell you when i first realized he had this box. mr. belin. i hand you what has been marked "holmes deposition exhibit ," and ask you to state what that is? mr. holmes. that is a photostatic copy of the original box rental application covering the rental of box , at the main post office in dallas, tex., which shows that it was completed on october the th, . the applicants name was lee h. oswald, home address, fairmore avenue, dallas, tex. signed lee h. oswald. it shows that the box was closed on may , . mr. belin. now, it is stamped date box opened, october , . and that is the same date that it appears to be written in handwriting at the bottom of it. mr. holmes. that's correct. mr. belin. all right. now, you found this postal money order and then what did you do? mr. holmes. off the record, let me ask you something. i questioned him about this box and all the angles with it during this interview. mr. belin. i am going to get to that. mr. holmes. i didn't know whether you wanted to put it in there. mr. belin. i am going to get to that. then what did you do? mr. holmes. i gave that information to my boss by telephone. he called washington immediately. of course this information included the money order number. this number was transmitted by phone to the chief inspector in washington, who immediately got the money order center at washington to begin a search, which they use ibm equipment to kick out this money order, and about o'clock saturday night they did kick out the original money order and sent it over by, so they said, by special conveyance to the secret service, chief of secret service at washington now, and it turned out, so they said, to be the correct money order. i asked them by phone as to what it said on it, and it said it had been issued to a. j. hidell, which to me then was the tip that i had the correct money order. up to then i didn't know whether i had the correct money order or not. mr. belin. how did you know about the use of the name a. j. hidell? mr. holmes. when the box was opened in the name of lee h. oswald. because for two reasons. i--one is, when he rented the post office box in new orleans, he used the name of a. j. hidell as one of the persons entitled to receive mail in that box. mr. belin. at that time did you know about that? mr. holmes. yes. mr. belin. all right, what else? mr. holmes. in his billfold the police had found a draft registration card in the name of a. j. hidell on his person at the time of his arrest, and i had seen it. mr. belin. anything else now about this money order? do you have a record of the number of the money order? mr. holmes. no; i don't. mr. belin. all right, what was the next thing you did in connection with the investigation of the assassination? mr. holmes. well, throughout the entire period i was feeding change of addresses as bits of information to the fbi and the secret service, and sort of a coordinating deal on it, but then about sunday morning about : ---- mr. belin. pardon me a second. (discussion off the record.) anything else now, mr holmes? mr. holmes. i might cover the record of his rental of the post office box in new orleans. do you want me to go into that? mr. belin. all right, go ahead. mr. holmes. the box rental records at new orleans show that on june the d, , post office box was rented to l. h. oswald. let me see there. some of my information comes at times i see and at times i see . i had it two places. one is a written memorandum on that new setup, and the other is what i took over the phone, and both of them show . mr. belin. all right, go ahead. mr. holmes. i think i got a copy. mr. belin. that is all right, you can go ahead. mr. holmes. this is at the lafayette square station in new orleans. at that time he showed his home address as french street, new orleans. on this box rental application card, he showed as being entitled to also receive mail in the box, marina oswald, and a. j. hidell. this box was closed on september , , with instructions to forward mail addressed to west fifth street, irving, tex. at the time this information was checked out in new orleans by postal inspector joe zarza, two copies of the newspaper called "the militant," were found in the box, which had not yet been forwarded. but there was a slipup. i hate to admit that. mr. belin. anything else? mr. holmes. i presume my next part in connection with this was when i joined the interrogation period of oswald on sunday morning of november at about : a.m. mr. belin. all right, now. let me ask you this. just what was the occasion of your joining this interrogation? how did you happen to be there? mr. holmes. i had been in and out of captain fritz' office on numerous occasions during this - / -day period. on this morning i had no appointment. i actually started to church with my wife. i got to church and i said, "you get out, i am going down and see if i can do something for captain fritz. i imagine he is as sleepy as i am." so i drove directly on down to the police station and walked in, and as i did, captain fritz motioned to me and said, "we are getting ready to have a last interrogation with oswald before we transfer him to the county jail. would you like to join us?" i said "i would." we went into his private room and closed the door, and those present were captain will fritz, of the dallas police department, forrest v. sorrels, local agent in charge of secret service, and thomas j. kelley, inspector, secret service, from washington, and also about three detectives who were not identified to me, but simply were guarding oswald who was handcuffed and seated at will fritz' desk. mr. belin. all right, now. will you state if you remember--do you have a written memorandum there of that interview? mr. holmes. yes, sir. mr. belin. i wonder if you would just let me ask you: when did you make your written memorandum? mr. holmes. on december , . mr. belin. i wonder if, using your memorandum to refresh your recollection, you would just say what was said by any of the people there and just cover the whole thing? i will take it up section by section. just start out. this started around : , is that it, on sunday morning? mr. holmes. yes, sir. now, this is my impression, not what he said. mr. belin. i notice the first paragraph, you have an impression on that? i wonder perhaps what we might do is, i am going to see if i have a copy of this, and if i can, to attach just as a--is this an extra copy that you have here? mr. holmes. yes; i guess you can. let me tear that top off. mr. belin. i am going to mark this as "holmes deposition exhibit no. ." this is a memorandum of your interview? mr. holmes. that i dictated on december , . mr. belin. that is about weeks after the interview took place; is that correct? mr. holmes. that's correct. mr. belin. do you have any notes from which you dictated this interview? mr. holmes. i had a few notes. i had no reason for such a statement except that about that time the fbi asked me--they learned that i had been in on this interrogation, and asked me if i would object to giving them a statement as to what went on in that room, and this is my statement. part of it was from notes and part of it was from memory. mr. belin. now, i notice--well, you might just, without even looking at the memorandum, first just give us your general impression of what went on there. mr. holmes. there was no formality to the interrogation. one man would question oswald. another would interrupt with a different trend of thought, or something in connection, and it was sort of an informal questioning or interrogation. oswald was quite composed. he answered readily those questions that he wanted to answer. he could cut off just like with a knife anything that he didn't want to answer. and those particular things that he didn't want to answer were anything that pertained with the assassination of the president or the shooting of officer tippit. he flatly denied any knowledge of either. he was not particularly obnoxious. he seemed to be intelligent. he seemed to be clearminded. he seemed to have a good memory, because in questioning him about the boxes, which i had original applications in front of me, he was pretty accurate. he knew box numbers and he answered these questions readily and answered them truthfully, as verified by the box rental applications that i had in front of me. mr. belin. what was oswald wearing at the time you saw him? mr. holmes. he was bareheaded. he had a sport shirt on and slacks, pair of trousers. mr. belin. what color trousers? mr. holmes. sort of a medium. on the light side i would say. mr. belin. what color shirt? mr. holmes. i don't recall. it was not a loud shirt. it was not outstanding. i don't know what color actually he had on. i do know, i can tell you when he put on the black sweater and all that. mr. belin. he put on a black sweater? mr. holmes. toward the end--that is the last thing on my memorandum. mr. belin. now, do you remember captain fritz showing a map, showing oswald a map of the city of dallas which had been recovered from his room? mr. holmes. he didn't show the map. he only mentioned the map and asked him about a certain map that had markings on it, and oswald said, "well, i presume you have reference to a map that i had in my room that had some x's on it." and, he said, "well, tell us about that one. why were the x's on there? what did that designate?" and he said that, "i have no automobile. i have no means of conveyance. i have to walk from where i am going most of the time. and i had my applications in with texas employment commission. they furnished me names and addresses of places that had openings like i might could fill, and neighborhood people had furnished me information on jobs i might could get. i was seeking a job, and i would put these markings on this map so that i could plan my itinerary around with less walking, and each one of those represented a place where i went and interviewed for a job." and he said, "you can check each one of them out if you want to." then captain fritz mentioned the x at the intersection of elm and houston. well, he said, "that is the location of the texas school depository and i did go there and interview for a job. in fact, i got a job there." he said, "that is all the map amounts to." mr. belin. is there anything else about that aspect of the interrogation? mr. holmes. i believe not. mr. belin. do you remember inspector kelley asking oswald about his religious views? mr. holmes. yes. someone, and i don't recall who, asked the first question on that, but you got that lenin business in there. mr. belin. i am deliberately asking you these questions before we get to your memorandum, and i am just trying to get your memory first. mr. holmes. all right. someone asked him about what his beliefs were, and he said, "well," about him being a communist something. someone referred to his communism, and he said, "i am not a communist. i am a marxist." and they said, what is the difference between communist and marxist, and he said, "well, a communist is a lenin marxist, and i am a true karl marxist." so, this secret service inspector asked, "what religion are you?" in other words, i mean, "what faith are you, as far as religion?" and he said, "i have no faith." and then he said, "i suppose you mean the bible." "yes, that is right." "well," he said, "i have read the bible. it is fair reading, but not very interesting. but, as a matter of fact, i am a student of philosophy and i don't consider the bible as even a reasonable or intelligent philosophy. i don't think much of it," he said. mr. belin. did anyone there ask him if cuba would be better off since the president was assassinated? do you remember anything about that? mr. holmes. i don't recall a question on that. mr. belin. do you remember anyone asking him a question about the rifle, or there was a picture of oswald holding a rifle. do you remember anything about that? mr. holmes. yes. they said, "we have a picture of you holding"--actually it came up before then in an interrogation of him about this rifle that came to this post office box. they asked him, "do you own a rifle?" he said, "no." well, "have you shot a rifle since you have been out of the marines?" he said, "no." then he backed up and said, "well, possibly a small bore, maybe a . , but not anything larger since i have left the marine corps." "do you own a rifle?" "absolutely not. how would i afford a rifle. i make $ . an hour. i can't hardly feed myself." then he said, "what about this picture of you holding this rifle?" "well, i don't know what you are talking about." he just cut it off. as i recall, he refused to even acknowledge there was such a picture. they had none of these exhibits in the room. mr. belin. you didn't have the picture at the time in the room when you were there? mr. holmes. no. mr. belin. did anyone say anything about his living on a so-called neely street, that you remember? or captain fritz, did he say that he told oswald that friends had visited him there and that friends had seen oswald there? do you remember at this time anything about that? mr. holmes. i don't remember his answer to it, whether he did answer. mr. belin. was anything--pardon me. mr. holmes. i remember fritz, i think, describe the fellow, and he just ignored it. he was vague about it. mr. belin. do you remember any statements that oswald made about any fight in new orleans about marxism or fair play for cuba or anything? does that ring a bell with you? mr. holmes. i knew all about it, and i knew the police records and all, but i don't know that it was brought up in that room at that time. mr. belin. was anything in that room--was he asked about knowing alek hidell? or anything about alek hidell? mr. holmes. i brought it up first as to did he ever have a package sent to him from anywhere. i said, "did you receive mail through this box under the name of any other name than lee oswald," and he said, "absolutely not." "what about a package to an a. j. hidell?" he said, "no." "well, did you order a gun in that name to come there?" "no, absolutely not." "had one come under that name, could this fellow have gotten it?" he said, "nobody got mail out of that box but me; no, sir." "maybe my wife, but i couldn't say for sure whether my wife ever got mail, but it is possible she could have." "well, who is a. j. hidell?" i asked him. and he said, "i don't know any such person." i showed him the box rental application for the post office box in new orleans and i read from it. i said, "here this shows as being able to receive, being entitled to receive mail is marina oswald." and he said, "well, that is my wife, so what?" and i said also it says "a. j. hidell." "well, i don't know anything about that." that is all he would say about it. then captain fritz interrupted and said, "well, what about this card we got out of your billfold? this draft registration card, he called it, where it showed a. j. hidell." "well, that is the only time that i recall he kind of flared up and he said, "now, i have told you all i am going to tell you about that card in my billfold." he said, "you have the card yourself, and you know as much about it as i do." and he showed a little anger. really the only time that he flared up. mr. belin. was there ever any mention at the time you were there of the fact that he had a right to have a lawyer present? do you remember anything about that at all, or not? mr. holmes. i don't recall. mr. belin. did he ever ask to have a lawyer present? do you remember anything about that at all? mr. holmes. oh, yes; they talked about a lawyer, and he said he had---- mr. belin. what was the conversation? who said what? mr. holmes. i don't know who started the conversation, but it had gotten into "do you have an attorney?" he said, "no." "well, do you want an attorney?" and he said, "no." then he said, "well, i tried to get a fellow from new york." but he said he wasn't able to get hold of him. and i think he is a civil liberties union lawyer. he mentioned something about he looks after their interests in new york. i don't remember the name, but they discussed that. mr. belin. would it be something like abt? mr. holmes. yes; short name. that could well be it. mr. belin. anything else? did he ever ask for any other lawyer or for any lawyer? mr. holmes. no. mr. belin. do you remember that while this was going on if the chief of police came to the office? mr. holmes. yes. along toward the end of the interrogation several people kept milling around outside of captain fritz' office and i noticed the chief of police out there, and they would rap on the door, and once in a while crack the door and look in, and gave all the appearance of being impatient. but captain fritz is a quiet and deliberate sort of individual and said, "don't worry about the men. if you got any more questions, ask him." mr. belin. who would be the people knocking and tapping on the window and would be impatient? mr. holmes. it was chief curry, and i didn't recognize the others, but there were people who later took him on downstairs, so they were waiting. they wanted to make this transfer, is what it was. in fact, the captain mentioned, he said, "we are going to have a little while to talk. i don't know how long, because they want to effect this transfer." and everybody assumed that that was why they were getting impatient outside about, they wanted to go ahead and complete the transfer. mr. belin. were there glass walls on captain fritz' office? mr. holmes. yes; with venetian blinds. mr. belin. were the venetian blinds closed? mr. holmes. they were closed, but you could see around the edges and through and every once in a while someone would lift a blind, and once in a while they would crack the door and look in. mr. belin. were the venetian blinds inside or outside, or do you know? mr. holmes. i don't know, to tell you the truth. mr. belin. about how big was the office? mr. holmes. just about as wide as this is. mr. belin. you want to pace it off here? mr. holmes. i would say by , personally, feet. mr. belin. how many doors? mr. holmes. one door. mr. belin. were there any other people outside there that morning other than the police officers, that you know of? mr. holmes. i recognized a couple of fbi agents. i couldn't call their names. mr. belin. any press people that you recognized? mr. holmes. no. mr. belin. all right, now. mr. holmes. of course, when we speak of outside fritz' office, it is still an inclosure where you go out another door to go into the hall where the public mills around. he had a suite of rooms. mr. belin. you had one of the rooms in that suite? mr. holmes. yes. in fact, he is in charge of all the rooms, but he has one private office of his own, and that is where we were. mr. belin. you do remember chief curry coming in? mr. holmes. yes. mr. belin. do you remember any conversation that transpired between chief curry and captain fritz? mr. holmes. as chief curry came in, someone handed some clothes on a hanger. it was maybe a sports shirt and a couple of pair of slacks, and i recall there were two sweaters and he said, "i will just take one of those sweaters." they gave him one sweater that he did not like. no, he said, "give me the black one." so he takes it, a little slip-over sweater. so, while he was putting that on, chief curry came around the other side of the desk and took will fritz over in the corner and they bowed their heads and discussed in an undertone. apparently, i got the impression they weren't trying to hide anything from us, but they didn't want oswald to overhear what they were saying. they were mumbling in an undertone and i didn't distinguish one thing that was said. mr. belin. did oswald ask to have a sweater or some clothes brought in? mr. holmes. yes. well, i don't know that he asked. i will take that back. i don't know that he asked. all i know, they handed it in and said, "do you want any of those clothes, or do you want to change your clothes?" and he said, "i will take one of the sweaters." they gave him the wrong sweater and he didn't like that and he asked for the other. and they uncuffed him and he slipped his arm in and they handcuffed him back up, and that is the only change. it was a black slipover kind of =v=-neck sweater. then they walked him out of the office and i stayed in the office with the two secret service men. mr. belin. so you didn't accompany oswald when they left? mr. holmes. no. mr. belin. when did you first learn that oswald had been shot? mr. holmes. i told sorrels, i said, "i have my car down the street. let's go down to my office, because it is directly across the reflecting pool from this school depository building and from the sheriff's office and entrance where they will take him in. let's go down to my office and we can look at it from my window and have a better eye view in case anything happens." and he said, "well, i have my car down there too, and i will need to have it to get back to my office, so i will just take my own car." so, i immediately went downstairs and got in my car and proceeded to my office, which probably took me ten minutes. when i got to the sidewalk of the terminal annex i parked my car and walked right in the door. one of the inspectors who was watching this box, they still had the surveillance on the box--said, "well, they got oswald now." i said, "what are you talking about?" "well, they have shot oswald." they had a radio sitting there going. i said, "that is not right. that is misinformation, because it hasn't been or or minutes that i left him in his presence and he was very much alive then." and just then they kept talking on the radio, and i got to listening, and sure enough, they shot him. mr. belin. where was your car parked? was it parked in the basement where they were going to transfer oswald? mr. holmes. no; out on the street. mr. belin. now, did you ever talk to captain fritz or any police officer about oswald getting shot? mr. holmes. i haven't talked or discussed this in any way. mr. belin. not since then with any other police officer? mr. holmes. no, sir. mr. belin. was there anything said in that interrogation of lee harvey oswald pertaining to the fair play for cuba committee, that you remember? mr. holmes. when i was discussing with him about rental application for box no. at the terminal annex, i asked him if he had shown that anyone else was entitled to get mail in that box and he said, "no." i said, "who did you show as your--what did you show as your business? and he said, "i didn't show anything." i said, "well, your box rental application here says, 'fair play for cuba committee and the american civil liberties union'." well, he said, "maybe that is right, i did put them on there." i said, "did they, anyone, who paid for the box?" he said, "i paid for it out of my own personal money." "did you rent it in the name of these organizations?" and he said, "no." he said, "i don't know why i put it on." he wouldn't talk about it. mr. belin. did you talk about whether he believed in the fair play for cuba committee? mr. holmes. no; we didn't get into that. we did discuss the organization of it in new orleans, and i got the impression that captain fritz was trying to get out of him the fact that he was the head man or the president of it, and he kept evading that and would be real evasive. but finally he admitted that he was, he said, "actually, it was a loosely organized thing and we had no officers, but probably you could call me the secretary of it because i did collect money." in other words, "secretary-treasurer, because i did try to collect a little money to get literature and work with." then i asked--oh, he mentioned, too, he said, "in new york they have a well organized or a better organization." well, i asked him, or one of us asked him about, "is that why you came to dallas, to organize a cell of this organization in dallas?" and he said, "no, not at all." "did you work on it or intend to organize here in dallas? "no," he said, "i didn't. i was too busy trying to get a job." that is about all he said about it. mr. belin. did anyone say anything about oswald saying anything about his leaving the texas school book depository after the shooting? mr. holmes. he said, as i remember, actually, in answer to questions there, he mentioned that when lunchtime came, one of the negro employees asked him if he would like to sit and each lunch with him, and he said, "yes, but i can't go right now." he said, "you go and take the elevator on down." no, he said, "you go ahead, but send the elevator back up." he didn't say up where, and he didn't mention what floor he was on. nobody seemed to ask him. you see, i assumed that obvious questions like that had been asked in previous interrogation. so i didn't interrupt too much, but he said, "send the elevator back up to me." then he said when all this commotion started, "i just went on downstairs." and he didn't say whether he took the elevator or not. he said, "i went down, and as i started to go out and see what it was all about, a police officer stopped me just before i got to the front door, and started to ask me some questions, and my superintendent of the place stepped up and told the officers that i am one of the employees of the building, so he told me to step aside for a little bit and we will get to you later. then i just went on out in the crowd to see what it was all about." and he wouldn't tell what happened then. mr. belin. did he say where he was at the time of the shooting? mr. holmes. he just said he was still up in the building when the commotion--he kind of---- mr. belin. did he gesture with his hands, do you remember? mr. holmes. he talked with his hands all the time. he was handcuffed, but he was quiet--well, he was not what you call a stoic phlegmatic person. he is very definite with his talk and his eyes and his head, and he goes like that, you see. mr. belin. did oswald say anything about seeing a man with a crewcut in front of the building as he was about to leave it? do you remember anything about that? mr. holmes. no. mr. belin. you don't remember anything about that. did he say anything about telling a man about going to a pay phone in the building? mr. holmes. policeman rushed--i take it back--i don't know whether he said a policeman or not--a man came rushing by and said, "where's your telephone?" and the man showed him some kind of credential and i don't know that he identified the credential, so he might not have been a police officer, and said i am so and so, and shoved something at me which i didn't look at and said, "where is the telephone?" and i said, "right there," and just pointed in to the phone, and i went on out. mr. belin. did oswald say why he left the building? mr. holmes. no; other than just said he talked about this commotion and went out to see what it was about. mr. belin. did oswald say how he got home, if he did get home? mr. holmes. they didn't--we didn't go into that. i just assumed that they had covered all that. nobody asked him about from the minute he walked out the door as to what happened to him, except somebody asked him about the shooting of tippit, and he said, "i don't know what you are talking about." he said, "the only thing that i am in here for is because i popped a policeman in the nose in a threatre on jefferson avenue, which i readily admit i did, because i was protecting myself." mr. belin. because he was what? mr. holmes. "protecting myself." mr. belin. now, i want you now to take a look for the first time during our interview here at holmes deposition exhibit , and thus far you have been testifying just from memory, is that correct? mr. holmes. yes; sir. mr. belin. now, i notice that it starts out, that it is in an informal memorandum that you put together, and then the second paragraph you have the general impression that oswald appeared confused or in doubt. i wonder if you would read that second paragraph and see if there is anything that you remember to elaborate on at this time. mr. holmes. read it aloud or to myself? mr. belin. no; to yourself, and see if there is anything you can remember to elaborate. mr. holmes. the only part i have not covered would be the impression that i received that he had disciplined his mind and his reflexes to a point where i doubt if he would even have been a good subject to a polygraph test, a lie detector. mr. belin. anything else you would care to elaborate? mr. holmes. i believe not. mr. belin. well, i wonder then if you would take a look at the second paragraph that begins "p.o. boxes." that is really the third paragraph on the page. mr. holmes. no; i think i have, if i remember that pretty well. mr. belin. all right, you take a look at the next paragraph, which is the last paragraph on the first page. mr. holmes. i believe there would be nothing to elaborate or change on it. mr. belin. turn to page on the first paragraph of the next page. mr. holmes. the only thing there that i haven't covered would be that the reason these various post office boxes wherever he went was that it was much easier to have his mail reach him through post office forwarding orders than it was to try to get somebody over in russia to change the address on a newspaper. mr. belin. by the way, did he talk about anything at all about his life in russia? mr. holmes. he mentioned only that he met his wife in minsk. that was her home town. mr. belin. anything else? mr. holmes. it seemed like it was a dance. he met her at a dance, he told us. mr. belin. anything else? mr. holmes. that he took these two local newspapers for her benefit, because it was local news to her and that was the reason he was getting those papers. she enjoyed reading about the home folks. mr. belin. anything else about russia? did he ever say anything about going to mexico? was that ever covered? mr. holmes. yes. to the extent that mostly about--well--he didn't spend, "where did you get the money?" he didn't have much money and he said it didn't cost much money. he did say that where he stayed it cost $ some odd, small ridiculous amount to eat, and another ridiculous small amount to stay all night, and that he went to the mexican embassy to try to get this permission to go to russia by cuba, but most of the talks that he wanted to talk about was how he got by with a little amount. they said, "well, who furnished you the money to go to mexico?" "well, it didn't take much money." and it was along that angle, was the conversation. mr. belin. did he admit that he went to mexico? mr. holmes. oh, yes. mr. belin. did he say what community in mexico he went to? mr. holmes. mexico city. mr. belin. did he say what he did while he was there? mr. holmes. he went to the mexican consulate, i guess. (discussion off the record.) mr. belin. now, with regard to this mexican trip, did he say who he saw in mexico? mr. holmes. only that he went to the mexican consulate or embassy or something and wanted to get permission, or whatever it took to get to cuba. they refused him and he became angry and he said he burst out of there, and i don't know. i don't recall now why he went into the business about how mad it made him. he goes over to the russian embassy. he was already at the american. this was the mexican--he wanted to go to cuba. then he went to the russian embassy and he said, because he said then he wanted to go to russia by way of cuba, still trying to get to cuba and try that angle and they refused and said, "come back in days," or something like that. and, he went out of there angry and disgusted. mr. belin. did he go to the cuban embassy, did he say or not? mr. holmes. he may have gone there first, but the best of my recollection, it might have been cuban and then the russian, wherever he went at first, he wanted to get to cuba, and then he went to the russian to go by cuba. mr. belin. did he say why he wanted to go to cuba? mr. holmes. no. mr. belin. did--this wasn't reported in your interview in the memorandum that you wrote? mr. holmes. no. mr. belin. is this something that you think you might have picked up from just reading the papers, or is this something you remember hearing? mr. holmes. that is what he said in there. mr. belin. all right; i want to go back to page of this memorandum. i believe we went through the first paragraph on page when you said that there wasn't anything you cared to add there other than what is reported on this holmes deposition exhibit ? mr. holmes. except what he mentioned about it was easier about the forwarding orders of newspapers. otherwise, no change. mr. belin. now, what about the next paragraph on page ? mr. holmes. i think i have covered that. mr. belin. all right, then. the next paragraph on page , which is the third and last paragraph on the page. mr. holmes. i believe i have mentioned the fact that he was evasive about whether he was actually a member of the american civil liberties union. in this statement i have mentioned that he was evasive about it. mr. belin. does that statement cover everything, or is there anything you care to add to that statement? mr. holmes. i can't think of anything of any particular importance there. mr. belin. then turn to page , the first paragraph. is there anything you can or care to add to that paragraph that isn't covered right here? mr. holmes. all right as is. mr. belin. what about the second paragraph on page ? mr. holmes. i have covered that. mr. belin. what about the third paragraph which begins with "marine corps service." mr. holmes. i don't believe that i discussed that yet. mr. belin. you haven't discussed it, but is there anything you care to add other than what is written on there? mr. holmes. no. mr. belin. did he indicate anything else about governor connally? mr. holmes. no. i have covered that in there. in fact, i got the distinct impression that he showed no flareup, no animosity when connally's name was mentioned. he simply considered him--somebody was shuffling the papers around, and he had no particular animosity toward him. i remember that distinctly. mr. belin. did he seem to have any animosity toward president kennedy? mr. holmes. no. mr. belin. now, take a look at the first paragraph on page and read that and see if there is anything you care to add to that? mr. holmes. no; i believe not. mr. belin. what about the fifth paragraph on the page? mr. holmes. i haven't discussed that. mr. belin. is there anything you would care to add to that? mr. holmes. no, sir. that is as he stated it. mr. belin. what about the last paragraph on page ? mr. holmes. that is as i recall it at the time. mr. belin. now, in the last paragraph on page , it says that when asked why he went to visit his wife on thursday night, whereas he normally visited her on the weekends, and he said on that particular weekend there was going to be a party for children. they were having a house full of children and he didn't want to be around at such a time. and, therefore, he made the weekly visit on thursday night? mr. holmes. that's right. mr. belin. did anyone question him about curtain rods, that you remember? mr. holmes. yes. mr. belin. what was that about curtain rods? mr. holmes. asked him if he brought a sack out when he got in the car with this young fellow that hauled him and he said, "yes." "what was in the sack?" "well, my lunch." "what size sack did you have?" he said, "oh, i don't know what size sack. you don't always get a sack that fits your sandwiches. it might be a big sack." "was it a long sack?" "well, it could have been." "what did you do with it?" "carried it in my lap." "you didn't put it over in the back seat?" "no." he said he wouldn't have done that. "well, someone said the fellow that hauled you said you had a long package which you said was curtain rods you were taking to somebody at work and you laid it over on the back seat." he said, "well, they was just mistaken. that must have been some other time he picked me up." that is all he said about it. mr. belin. were there any other questions asked about curtain rods. mr. holmes. i don't recall. mr. belin. all right, i turn to the top of page , which is the next paragraph, and i see that you have this recorded in your memorandum. you have this all recorded here except you don't mention the sentence about the curtain rods? mr. holmes. so that has been elaborated on in that paragraph. mr. belin. all right, anything else you care to elaborate on that first paragraph on page ? mr. holmes. i believe not. mr. belin. all right, the second paragraph on page pertaining to his whereabouts at the time of the shooting. would you care to elaborate on that? mr. holmes. i believe it is just about as i have stated. no elaboration. mr. belin. then the third paragraph on page was about an a. j. hidell identification card. would you care to read that and see if there is anything on that? mr. holmes. i believe not. mr. belin. by the way, where did this policeman stop him when he was coming down the stairs at the book depository on the day of the shooting? mr. holmes. he said it was in the vestibule. mr. belin. he said he was in the vestibule? mr. holmes. or approaching the door to the vestibule. he was just coming, apparently, and i have never been in there myself. apparently there is two sets of doors, and he had come out to this front part. mr. belin. did he state it was on what floor? mr. holmes. first floor. the front entrance to the first floor. mr. belin. did he say anything about a coca cola or anything like that, if you remember? mr. holmes. seems like he said he was drinking a coca cola, standing there by the coca cola machine drinking a coca cola. mr. belin. anything else? mr. holmes. nothing more than what i have already told you on it. mr. belin. anything else that you care to add to the third paragraph on page ? mr. holmes. i believe not. mr. belin. now, here in the fourth paragraph, which is the last paragraph of page , the last paragraph of your memorandum, anything else you care to add to that? mr. holmes. i believe not. mr. belin. is there anything else that we haven't covered that you think might be helpful here and you think we ought to talk about, mr. holmes? have you found now in your records the money order number that was involved in the purchase of the rifle? mr. holmes. the money order number that was found in washington and matched the original money order was number - - - , issued at the main office in dallas, tex., on march , , in the amount of $ . . mr. belin. do you have any information on the money order for the pistol or how the pistol was paid for, or was there a money order? mr. holmes. no, sir. mr. belin. now, mr. holmes, i wonder if you could try and think if there is anything else that you remember oswald saying about where he was during the period prior or shortly prior to, and then at the time of the assassination? mr. holmes. nothing more than i have already said. if you want me to repeat that? mr. belin. go ahead and repeat it. mr. holmes. see if i say it the same way? mr. belin. yes. mr. holmes. he said when lunchtime came he was working in one of the upper floors with a negro. the negro said, "come on and let's eat lunch together." apparently both of them having a sack lunch. and he said, "you go ahead, send the elevator back up to me and i will come down just as soon as i am finished." and he didn't say what he was doing. there was a commotion outside, which he later rushed downstairs to go out to see what was going on. he didn't say whether he took the stairs down. he didn't say whether he took the elevator down. but he went downstairs, and as he went out the front, it seems as though he did have a coke with him, or he stopped at the coke machine, or somebody else was trying to get a coke, but there was a coke involved. he mentioned something about a coke. but a police officer asked him who he was, and just as he started to identify himself, his superintendent came up and said, "he is one of our men." and the policeman said, "well, you step aside for a little bit." then another man rushed in past him as he started out the door, in this vestibule part of it, and flashed some kind of credential and he said, "where is your telephone, where is your telephone, and said i am so and so, where is your telephone." and he said, "i didn't look at the credential. i don't know who he said he was, and i just pointed to the phone and said, 'there it is,' and went on out the door." mr. belin. anything else? mr. holmes. i believe not. mr. belin. mr. holmes, when we first met, we sat down and i practically started taking testimony right away, is that correct? mr. holmes. yes, sir. mr. belin. is there anything in the short conversation we had before we started taking testimony about this matter that we haven't discussed here on the record? mr. holmes. no, sir. mr. belin. for the record, i would like to offer as a part of this deposition holmes exhibits , , , and , and in addition, i don't know for the record, but i would like to offer--at some of the depositions we have had delays, but will you have copies made, madam reporter? and one final thing, you have the right, if you want, to come back and read the deposition and sign, or else you let it go to us without signing or coming back without reading it. do you want to waive it or come back? mr. holmes. i will waive it. mr. belin. one other thing. i better mark this as holmes deposition, exhibit . mr. holmes. i want to save that. mr. belin. mr. holmes, i hand you holmes deposition exhibit and ask you to state if you will what this is. mr. holmes. it is a circular-type sheet simulating a wanted circular as put out by the post office department or the fbi showing a profile view. that is two separate views of president kennedy. mr. belin. the one that says "wanted for treason"? mr. holmes. underneath his picture in large type is "wanted for treason." mr. belin. how did you get ahold of this document, or what is the fact involved? mr. holmes. this was handed to me by one of the postal supervisors who brought it to my office stating that it had been brought in by one of the carriers that found it in a collection box on his route. mr. belin. on what day, do you know, offhand, in relation to the assassination? mr. holmes. he brought that in the afternoon of the assassination, november . mr. belin. do you know how many of these were passed out? mr. holmes. no; except that it came from various sources. they were being passed out at neighborhood shopping centers, and numerous of them were brought in. this supervisor said that they had dozens of them down there, that it had come in by the carrier. mr. belin. i believe you also said that--is there anything else in regards to holmes deposition exhibit you care to add? mr. holmes. i believe not. mr. belin. now, you showed us your deposition exhibit , this application for a post office box dated november , , of lee harvey oswald, and you said this was at the terminal annex? mr. holmes. yes, sir. mr. belin. how can you tell? mr. holmes. because i recognized it as being the application, and also--i mean the application that i obtained at the terminal annex, and also the , designates that series of boxes at the terminal annex. mr. belin. and you also showed me an application for box , dated november , . is that also the terminal annex? mr. holmes. yes, sir. mr. belin. this was taken out by whom? mr. holmes. that is an application taken out by jack ruby on november , , showing his firm name as being earl products; business, merchandising. mr. belin. we will put this as holmes deposition exhibit . do you know of any connection of your own knowledge between jack ruby and lee harvey oswald? mr. holmes. no, sir; i know of none. mr. belin. anything else you can say about holmes deposition exhibit ? mr. holmes. i believe not. mr. belin. other than the fact that within a week of one another these two applications were taken out at the same post office? mr. holmes. that is the only significance that it has, as far as i am concerned. mr. belin. we will offer in evidence holmes deposition exhibits and , in addition to through . let the record show that the original of holmes deposition exhibit will be returned to mr. holmes, and we will just for our records have copies made by the court reporter. mr. holmes. i have a photocopy machine in my office. mr. belin. mr. holmes, you have also asked me to make a photostatic copy of holmes deposition exhibit and you keep the original. this would be satisfactory for our purposes. this is the advertisement you cut out. do you suppose you could get this to the court reporter yourself? would you take the photostats? mr. holmes. yes. mr. belin. mr. holmes, we want to certainly thank you for all the cooperation you have given the president's commission. testimony of james w. bookhout the testimony of james w. bookhout was taken at : a.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. samuel a. stern, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. stern. will you please rise. do you swear that the testimony you are about to give shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. bookhout. i do. mr. stern. sit down, please. mr. stern. state your name, please. mr. bookhout. james w. bookhout. do you want my home address? mr. stern. yes. mr. bookhout. cornelia lane, dallas, tex. mr. stern. what is your occupation, mr. bookhout? mr. bookhout. special agent of the federal bureau of investigation. mr. stern. how long have you been with the federal bureau of investigation? mr. bookhout. little over years. mr. stern. how long have you been assigned to the dallas office? mr. bookhout. since about . mr. stern. were you on duty on november ? mr. bookhout. actually, i was on leave on that particular date. however, i had been requested to come to the office to handle some expedited dictation in a particular case. having completed that, i left the office and proceeded to the mercantile national bank, where i transacted some personal business. upon leaving the bank, it was momentarily expected that the president's motorcade would pass that area. i stood there for a few minutes, and as the motorcade passed i was actually unable to personally observe the president, due to the crowd on the sidewalk. while waiting for the crowd to thin, in order to cross the street, several separate sirens on the police squad cars were heard proceeding in the direction of the county courthouse. while crossing the street, some citizen with a transistor radio stated that it had just been announced that shots had been fired at the president's motorcade. i immediately proceeded toward the office and observed two agents coming from the direction of the office, who advised that the office was trying to contact me and i was to proceed to the homicide and robbery bureau of the dallas police department. i immediately proceeded to the homicide and robbery bureau and contacted my office and was advised that i was to maintain liaison with the homicide and robbery bureau. mr. stern. did you then go to the police headquarters? mr. bookhout. yes; as i said, i went to the homicide and robbery bureau after contacting the dallas office. mr. stern. what then occurred at the police headquarters? let me ask you this: how soon after you arrived there was oswald brought in? mr. bookhout. well, it was some little time, as i recall, the next pertinent instance was a report that the dallas police officer had been shot, and that was in the oak cliff area. captain fritz had not returned to the office at that time. when he did return, and subsequently oswald was apprehended in the texas theatre, information was passed to captain fritz as to the name of the suspect that they had apprehended on the tippit shooting, and at that time he stated that that was the suspect that they were looking for on the killing of the president. mr. stern. did the name lee harvey oswald mean anything to you at that time? mr. bookhout. no. captain fritz went on to explain that oswald was an employee of the texas book depository, who they had ascertained left his employment there subsequent to the shooting incident. mr. stern. and sometime after this he was brought to the police headquarters? mr. bookhout. yes. mr. stern. were you present when he was brought in? mr. bookhout. yes. mr. stern. can you describe his physical condition? mr. bookhout. i can recall one of the officers that brought him in was paul bentley. he is a polygraph operator in the identification division of the dallas police department, and bentley was limping, and oswald had one eye that was swollen and a scratch mark on his forehead. mr. stern. did you observe any other bruises? mr. bookhout. none. mr. stern. was he handcuffed? mr. bookhout. yes. mr. stern. was he walking by himself, or being held by police officers? mr. bookhout. to my recollection there was an officer on each side of him that had ahold of his arms. mr. stern. was he struggling? mr. bookhout. no; just walking in, you know what i mean. mr. stern. yes. mr. bookhout. in a normal fashion. mr. stern. then what occurred, that you observed? mr. bookhout. i believe he was taken directly into captain fritz' office and the interview started at that time with captain fritz, and two homicide officers. mr. stern. were you present? mr. bookhout. i was not in the office at that time. i called our office, advised them he had been brought in, and that the interview was starting and shortly thereafter mr. shanklin, our sac called back and said the bureau wanted the agents present in the interview and that hosty, james p. hosty, i believe was to sit in on the interview, and i was to also be present with hosty. so, at that time, we asked captain fritz to sit in on the interview, and that was approximately : p.m. mr. stern. how long had the interview gone on before you were present? mr. bookhout. very shortly. i would give a rough estimate of not more than to minutes at the most. mr. stern. how long did that first interview last? mr. bookhout. a little under an hour. mr. stern. was it interrupted at any point, if you remember? mr. bookhout. well, what i am thinking, we have got several interviews here. i know from time to time i can't recall whether it was this interview, or subsequent interviews captain fritz would have to leave the office for a second or two. by "office," i mean the immediate office that the interview was being conducted in, but still within the homicide and robbery office. mr. stern. did the interviewing continue when he was out of the room, or did you wait for his return? mr. bookhout. no; it would continue. mr. stern. by whom was the interview conducted? mr. bookhout. primarily it was conducted by captain fritz and then before he would leave from one point to another he would ask if there was anything we wanted to ask him particularly on that point. mr. stern. by "we," you mean agent hosty and yourself? mr. bookhout. right. mr. stern. what was oswald's demeanor in the course of this interview? did he seem in control of himself, excited, or calm? can you describe his conduct? mr. bookhout. he was very arrogant and argumentative. that is about the extent of the comment on that. mr. stern. is this as to you and hosty, or also captain fritz? did he differentiate in his conduct between captain fritz and the two of you? mr. bookhout. now--no; that would apply to everyone present. mr. stern. did he answer all questions put to him or did he refuse to answer the questions? mr. bookhout. no; there would be certain questions that he refused to comment about. mr. stern. when this happened was the question pressed, or another question asked? mr. bookhout. anyone asking the--another question would be asked. mr. stern. what sort of question would he refuse to answer? was there any pattern to his refusing? mr. bookhout. well, now, i am not certain whether this would apply then to this particular interview, the first interview or not, in answering this, but i recall specifically one of the interviews asking him about the selective service card which he had in the name of hidell, and he admitted that he was carrying the card, but that he would not admit that he wrote the signature of hidell on the card, and at that point stated that he refused to discuss the matter further. i think generally you might say anytime that you asked a question that would be pertinent to the investigation, that would be the type of question he would refuse to discuss. mr. stern. would you say he had a pretty good idea of what might be incriminating and what not incriminating? mr. bookhout. well, i think that would call for an opinion, and i can only report the facts to you, and based on the example of the type of questions that i had commented on that he refused to answer, you will have to draw your own conclusion on that. mr. stern. fine. i am just trying to get at whether he seemed in command of himself and alert, and whether he handled himself responsibly from his own viewpoint, but if you don't want to venture an opinion, that's fine. when you first joined the interview, did you advise him that you were an agent of the fbi, and did you say anything about warning him that evidence--that anything he said might be used? mr. bookhout. yes; that was done by agent hosty. mr. stern. did he, at that point, or later say anything specifically regarding the fbi? mr. bookhout. yes. mr. stern. tell us what that was. mr. bookhout. he accused the fbi of, generally, unfair tactics in interviewing his wife on some previous occasion. mr. stern. was this directed specifically at either you or hosty, or to the general---- mr. bookhout. it was directed against hosty. mr. stern. he did not, oswald did not indicate that he knew hosty himself, did he? mr. bookhout. no. mr. stern. but, there was a complaint about an interview, or interrogation of marina oswald? mr. bookhout. right. mr. stern. did he say anything about fbi interviews of him that had occurred in the past, any complaint about such interviews? mr. bookhout. i don't know that that would be in this particular interview, but in one of the interviews which has been reported he stated that he had been interviewed at fort worth, tex., by agents upon his return to the united states from russia, and he felt that they had used unfair means of interviewing him, or something. those are not his exact words, but that is the impression he conveyed. mr. stern. unfair in what respect? mr. bookhout. i don't know. mr. stern. did he say? mr. bookhout. no. mr. stern. tell us the nature of his complaint. mr. bookhout. i think he probably used the expression, "unfair tactics," or something in their interviews. mr. stern. yes. did he indicate that he felt that the interview that was then going on was unfair in any way? did he complain about that? mr. bookhout. no, he didn't complain about the interview. he made a complaint or two, as i recall, that one of the interviews that has been reported, in fact, i believe it was in this first interview he complained about his hands being handcuffed behind his back, and asked captain fritz to remove the handcuffs. captain fritz had one of his officers uncuff his hands from behind his back and recuff them in front and asked him if that was more satisfactory and he stated that it was. mr. stern. any other aspect of his treatment that he complained of? mr. bookhout. i recall one of the interviews that he complained about the lineup that he was in, that he wasn't allowed to wear a jacket similar to jackets worn by others in the lineup. mr. stern. did this occur at the lineup or subsequently? mr. bookhout. this was in one of the interviews in captain fritz' office. mr. stern. referring to a lineup that had---- mr. bookhout. subsequently been held--previously been held. mr. stern. during the first interview was he asked whether he had ever been in mexico, and if so, by whom? mr. bookhout. yes; i recall hosty asking him if he had ever been in mexico. mr. stern. what did he say? mr. bookhout. he said he had not. i believe he mentioned he had been in tijuana, mexico, i believe, but i believe the question was whether he had ever been in mexico city. mr. stern. was he asked about an organization called the fair play for cuba committee, and if so, by whom? mr. bookhout. yes, he was asked if he belonged to that. i don't recall specifically who raised the question. mr. stern. what did he say? mr. bookhout. he said he was a member of it, and was secretary of the new orleans branch. i believe he said the headquarters was in new york city. mr. stern. was there much discussion of this, or just the identification? mr. bookhout. well, now, that is another instance where he balked on answering a question. he was asked who the officers were, and at that point he said he refused to discuss the matter further. mr. stern. was he asked his residence address in dallas and did he give it? mr. bookhout. yes; he furnished the address of north beckley. mr. stern. did he say that he was living there under another name, or was another name and particularly the name o. h. lee mentioned at all in this connection? mr. bookhout. he was asked why he was using the name lee at this address, and he attempted to pass it off by stating that the landlord was an old lady, and his first name was lee and she just had gotten it in her head that he was mr. lee. he never did explain about the initials o. h. mr. stern. was he asked whether he had shot the president, or officer tippit? mr. bookhout. yes; he was asked that, and denied shooting either one of them, or knowing anything about it. mr. stern. was he asked whether he was carrying a pistol at the time he was in the texas theatre? mr. bookhout. yes; that was brought up. he admitted that he was carrying a pistol at the time he was arrested. he claimed that he had bought this some time ago in fort worth. mr. stern. he said he had gotten it in fort worth? mr. bookhout. that is my recollection, and there again, in trying to follow through on that line of thought, he refused to answer any further questions as to whereabouts in fort worth he had bought it. mr. stern. did he talk about his arrest and his resistance of arrest at the texas theatre? mr. bookhout. he admitted fighting with the officer at the time of the arrest, but i don't recall any explanation as to why he was doing it. mr. stern. did he admit that he might have been wrong in doing that, or say anything to that effect? mr. bookhout. seemed to me like he made the comment that the only thing he was guilty of, or the only thing he could be charged with would be the carrying of a concealed weapon, and of resisting the arrest. mr. stern. when he was asked about involvement in the assassination of president kennedy, or the shooting of officer tippit, how would you describe his denials? mr. bookhout. well, i don't know exactly how to describe it, but as i recall, he spoke very loudly. in other words, he was--he gave an emphatic denial, that is about all i can recall on it. mr. stern. i believe that in the report you filed on this first interview, you or agent hosty, who joined in the report with you, used the adverb "frantically" to describe his denial of an involvement. does that refresh your recollection as to that? would you use that word now, or was that your word? mr. bookhout. no; that was written by hosty, and that would be his expression of describing it. mr. stern. do you think "emphatically," is perhaps the more descriptive word now? mr. bookhout. well, that would be the way i would describe it. as i said, he spoke---- mr. stern. i am not trying to put words into your mouth. mr. bookhout. he spoke loudly. mr. stern. i am most interested in getting the tone of this interrogation and his state, the way he conducted himself, and that is why i ask this question, and there is something of a difference between saying a man is acting frantically as opposed to his acting emphatically. mr. bookhout. well, i suppose the word, "frantically," would probably describe it. in other words, i said that he spoke loudly. there just wasn't a normal type of denial. he was--it was more than that. that is the reason i say that probably "frantically," might be a descriptive word. mr. stern. did that occur only in connection with questions about whether he had shot the president, or was the general tone of this interrogation, as far as he was concerned, at that level? mr. bookhout. no; he wouldn't use the same expression of speech in answering all questions. he would have certain kinds there, and certain types of questions that he would apparently have stronger feelings on. mr. stern. do you recall at any time his pounding on the desk, or making any other physical gestures of that kind? mr. bookhout. i don't recall him pounding on the desk; no, sir. mr. stern. now, this interview, as i understand, took approximately an hour? mr. bookhout. that's correct. mr. stern. according to this report, you and agent hosty entered the interviewing around about : p.m., and it ended at : . mr. bookhout. that would be correct. mr. stern. were these times that you or hosty would have recorded at that moment in the ordinary course of your participation? mr. bookhout. that's correct. there was no log made of it, as such, but those were the times recorded for that particular interview. mr. stern. your normal practice is to get times down pretty accurately in matter of this---- mr. bookhout. try to. mr. stern. and did you make the record of these times, or did agent hosty? mr. bookhout. i can say that i did. whether he did or not, i don't know. mr. stern. incidentally, normally, do you preserve those notes or destroy them when you make a formal report? mr. bookhout. they will be, normally, destroyed at the time you make your--what we refer to as an interview report. mr. stern. and in this case, did you destroy your notes? mr. bookhout. that's correct. mr. stern. so, you have no notes respecting this whole matter? mr. bookhout. no, other than the reported interviewing report. mr. stern. yes; when the first interview was concluded, it was, as i understand it, to take oswald before a lineup? mr. bookhout. that's correct. mr. stern. did you go with the police taking oswald? mr. bookhout. no; i didn't go with them. in other words, it was strictly, as far as we were concerned, a police operation. i did proceed to the lineup room and observed it for the purpose of maintaining our liaison and keeping up with what was going on. mr. stern. do you recall how many people were in the lineup? mr. bookhout. it was a four-man lineup. mr. stern. did you know any of the other people? mr. bookhout. no. mr. stern. do you recall now their physical characteristics, as related to oswald's physical characteristics? were they same size as he, or noticeably larger or smaller? mr. bookhout. i observed that the lineup consisted of four men who were numbered from left to right, one through four. oswald was no. in the lineup. all the individuals appeared to be of the same general age, height, and weight, and they were white american males. mr. stern. what about the dress of all the people in the lineup? mr. bookhout. i cannot recall specifically what the dress was, but there was nothing obviously different between their dress. mr. stern. from your experience as an fbi agent, from your experience in policework, i take it you observed nothing about this lineup that was out of the ordinary? mr. bookhout. that's correct. mr. stern. did you hear what the witnesses who were present at the lineup said about the lineup? mr. bookhout. no; i did not. mr. stern. when the lineup was concluded, what happened next, as far as you were concerned? mr. bookhout. i returned to the homicide and robbery bureau. mr. stern. was oswald brought back there, or taken elsewhere? mr. bookhout. i don't recall specifically whether he was brought back to the homicide and robbery bureau, or placed in jail, but i do know that i didn't interview him any more that day. mr. stern. did you have any further contact with him that day? friday? mr. bookhout. no. mr. stern. when did you next see oswald? mr. bookhout. well, it would be on the morning of november , , in the homicide and robbery bureau. mr. stern. this was another interrogation? mr. bookhout. yes. mr. stern. conducted by captain fritz? mr. bookhout. that's correct. mr. stern. do you recall who else was present, and you may refer any time to your reports to refresh your recollection. mr. bookhout. all right; that will be the interrogation that was in the presence of myself, t. j. kelley of the u.s. secret service, david b. grant, u.s. secret service, robert i. nash, u.s. marshal, and detectives billy l. senkel and fay m. turner from the homicide and robbery bureau, dallas police department. this interview was conducted, primarily, by captain fritz. mr. stern. did you ask any questions in the course of this interview? mr. bookhout. yes. mr. stern. what were they, and what were the responses, if you recall? mr. bookhout. one specific question was with regard to the selective service card in the possession of oswald bearing a photograph of oswald and the name alek james hidell. oswald admitted he carried this selective service card, but declined to state that he wrote the signature of alek j. hidell appearing on same. further declined to state the purpose of carrying same, and--or any use he made of same. mr. stern. did oswald say anything in the course of this interview with regard to obtaining a lawyer? mr. bookhout. yes, it was in this interview that he mentioned he wanted to contact attorney abt [spelling] a-b-t, new york city. i recall captain fritz asked him if he knew abt personally and he said he did not, but he explained that he knew that abt had defended the smith act cases in , or , and captain fritz asked him if he knew how to get ahold of mr. abt, and he stated that he did not know what his address was, but he was in new york. i recall that captain fritz explained to him that he would allow him to place a long distance call for abt, and he explained to oswald how to ask the long distance operator to trace him down and locate him, even though oswald didn't even know his address or telephone number. mr. stern. did he actually make the call in your presence? mr. bookhout. no; he didn't make the call in my presence. the next interview that we had with him, i recall that captain fritz asked him if he had been able to contact mr. abt. oswald stated that he had made the telephone call and thanked captain fritz for allowing him to make the call, but actually, he had not been able to talk to abt. he wasn't available. wasn't in his office or something---- mr. stern. was he complaining about not having counsel furnished, or did he seem satisfied with the effort to reach abt? mr. bookhout. no; he made no complaint about not being furnished an attorney. actually, there was a good deal of conversation on that point, and he stated that he did not want any dallas attorney representing him, and said that if he couldn't get in touch with mr. abt, that he would probably contact someone with the civil liberties union, and have them furnish an attorney. i recall sometime during november or , i believe it was, the head of the dallas bar association appeared at the homicide and robbery bureau and requested permission to talk to oswald. captain fritz gave him that permission, and when he got through talking to oswald and came back in and told captain fritz that he had seen him, and that oswald did not want anybody from dallas to represent him. mr. stern. you heard this? mr. bookhout. yes; that was in my presence. i don't recall the name of the attorney, but i was there at the time or during that conversation. mr. stern. can you tell us approximately how long this saturday morning interview took? mr. bookhout. well, that would be approximately an hour. no interview that i participated in lasted over an hour, and i think roughly this one probably started around : in the morning and lasted for approximately an hour. mr. stern. all right. what was his physical appearance at this time? mr. bookhout. his appearance was no different than it was on the d. mr. stern. you saw no other bruises? mr. bookhout. no. mr. stern. did he seem rested, or tired? mr. bookhout. i saw no difference in his appearance on the d than it was on the d. mr. stern. how about the way he handled himself? was he any calmer, any more communicative saturday morning than he had been friday afternoon? mr. bookhout. well, i think that he might not have been quite as belligerent on the d as he was on the d. but he still refused to discuss certain points indicated above, selective service card being one point that i recall. i remember he was asked if he would take a polygraph, and he said he would not, that it had always been his practice not to agree to take a polygraph. mr. stern. did he suggest that he had been asked before to take a polygraph? mr. bookhout. he made some comment along the line that it had never been his policy--before, to take a polygraph. mr. stern. but he didn't elaborate on it? mr. bookhout. he didn't elaborate on it. mr. stern. did he make any further comment at this interview about his interviews with the fbi, or their interviews of his wife? mr. bookhout. i think probably this is the one i referred to a while ago. yes, it would be in this interview that he made further comment that on the interview of ruth paine by the fbi, regarding his wife, that he felt that his wife was intimidated. also, in this interview that he made mention as previously stated above that he had arrived about july , , from russia, and was interviewed by the fbi at fort worth, tex. he stated that he felt that they had overstepped their bounds and used various tactics in interviewing him. mr. stern. did he specify what the tactics were? mr. bookhout. no; he did not. mr. stern. in your report before this interview you mentioned that he again denied shooting president kennedy, and apparently said that he didn't know until then that governor connally had been shot? mr. bookhout. that's correct. that was his statement, that he denied shooting president john f. kennedy on november , , and commented that he did not know that governor john connally had been shot. mr. stern. did you form any impression about whether he was genuinely surprised? did he look genuinely surprised to you, or how did you feel about that? i am just asking for your impression. if you don't have one, say so. mr. bookhout. no; i have no impression on that. i arrived at no conclusion. mr. stern. what did he say at this interview with respect to the purchase of a rifle, or possession of a rifle? mr. bookhout. generally, he stated that he didn't own a rifle, hadn't ever made any mail order purchase of one. mr. stern. now, did anything transpire that you observed concerning oswald between the end of that morning interview on saturday, and the next interview of oswald? mr. bookhout. no. mr. stern. you stayed at the police headquarters in that period performing liaison functions? mr. bookhout. yes. mr. stern. you did not observe another lineup? mr. bookhout. no; there were other lineups. mr. stern. but you did not participate? mr. bookhout. but i did not observe. mr. stern. or observe? mr. bookhout. any others. mr. stern. now, approximately when did the next interview occur? mr. bookhout. the interview at about : p.m., on november , . mr. stern. how long did this interview last? mr. bookhout. not over an hour. mr. stern. who conducted this interview? mr. bookhout. captain fritz. mr. stern. did you ask any questions, that you recall? mr. bookhout. i don't recall asking any specific questions during this interview. mr. stern. it was at this interview, was it not, that oswald was shown photographs of himself holding a rifle and wearing a pistol in a holster? mr. bookhout. that's correct. mr. stern. what was his comment about the photograph? mr. bookhout. his comment, as i recall, he was asked if this was his photograph, and his comment was that the head of the photograph was his, but that it could have been superimposed over the body of someone else. he pointed out that he had been apparently photographed by news media numerous times in proceeding from the homicide and robbery bureau to the lineup and back, and that is how they probably got the photograph of his face, and he went into a long discussion of how much he knew about photography, and knew that this--his face could be superimposed over somebody else's body holding the gun and pistol and so forth. mr. stern. now, was his appearance and demeanor at this interview---- mr. bookhout. no different than it was during the previous interviews. mr. stern. did he have any comment at this interview about counsel? mr. bookhout. none other than at the outset of being first asked if that was his photograph, he first made the statement that he wouldn't make any comment about it without the advice of counsel, but then subsequently is when he went into the story about his face had been superimposed over somebody else's body. mr. stern. did he complain in the course of this interview about the way in which the lineup had been conducted? mr. bookhout. this is the interview in which he--a previously mentioned comment here was made to the effect that he had not been granted a request to put on a jacket similar to those worn by some of the other individuals in some previous lineups. mr. stern. in each of these interviews was he generally taken through the same questions or similar questions, or were the interviews addressed to different areas? mr. bookhout. more or less, they had been to a specific area. for instance, in this last interview we are talking about, that was more or less confined to this photograph. mr. stern. yes. did he ever complain that, "we have been over that ground before," or make any such statement? mr. bookhout. no; i don't recall anything along that line, but i can recall one subject matter probably in the first interview where he talked about his method of transportation after leaving the texas book depository, having gotten on a bus, and then that subject was taken up again, as i recall, in the second interview, expressed the same answer at that time, and then subsequently to that interview he backed up and said that it wasn't actually true as to how he got home. that he had taken a bus, and due to the traffic jam he had left the bus and got a taxicab, by which means he actually arrived at his residence. mr. stern. had he been confronted by the driver of the taxicab, or been told that they had located the driver of the taxicab before he changed his story, or did he volunteer the story of the taxi? mr. bookhout. i don't recall specifically whether he was confronted with that or not. mr. stern. all right. do you recall whether in the course of any of the interrogations any official, anyone present suggested in any way to oswald that things would be better for him if he told the truth, if he confessed? was he ever offered any inducement--any suggestion made that he would be better off if he told the full story? mr. bookhout. i can't recall anything along that line. i don't recall any type of inducement whatsoever. mr. stern. in each interview in which you participated, did you warn him about the possible use of his statement against him? mr. bookhout. i personally did not at each interview, but i can say that at each interview he was warned. he was warned numerous times by captain fritz and his rights were fully explained to him. mr. stern. what sort of warning would captain fritz give him, generally? mr. bookhout. he gave a warning consisting of the fact that he did not have to make any statement, that any statement he made could be used against him in court, and he had the right to consult with an attorney, generally, that was the rights that were explained to him, as i recall. mr. stern. this was said at each session at which you were present? mr. bookhout. this was given at once each time, and the question would come up later on, i mean, he would repeat himself, that, you don't have to make any statement--and so forth. mr. stern. did you observe anytime any physical or mental coercion of oswald by anyone? mr. bookhout. none whatsoever. mr. stern. off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. stern. now, back on the record. this interview on late saturday afternoon, was about or : , is that correct? mr. bookhout. this one started about : p.m. and i would say it lasted about an hour. mr. stern. i see. so, that is : ? mr. bookhout. yes. mr. stern. was there any further interview that day that you participated in? mr. bookhout. none that i recall. mr. stern. did you see oswald again anytime after that interview concluded? mr. bookhout. now, yes; on the morning of november , , i observed him in interview with captain fritz and numerous other officers in the homicide and robbery bureau. captain fritz--i did not participate in this interview. it had already started before i arrived. mr. stern. did you notice anything unusual about his appearance? mr. bookhout. no. mr. stern. did you see oswald again? mr. bookhout. i stayed there in the office of the homicide and robbery bureau. when i refer to "office" i mean the overall office, and inside of that office is a private office of captain fritz. the interview was being conducted in the private office. there is a glass partition or glass--well, say glass partition on one side of the office that you can see what is going on inside there. i took a seat adjacent to this glass area in the office proper of the homicide and robbery bureau, and watched oswald during the interview that was going on. about--well, i don't know what time specifically, it was after o'clock, as i recall, the interview terminated. i asked captain fritz if he had--if oswald made any admissions, and he stated that he had not made any. shortly thereafter he was taken out of the homicide and robbery bureau. i remained in the homicide office. mr. stern. did you see him again? mr. bookhout. next time i saw him was after a report came out over the intercom system for any homicide and robbery officers to report to the city hall basement. i proceeded to the basement after learning from lieutenant baker in the homicide and robbery bureau, who had made a telephone call to the dispatcher to inquire what was going on, that oswald had been shot. when i arrived in the basement i asked where was oswald, and they said that he was in the jail office. i asked who had shot him, and i was told an individual by the name of jack ruby. i asked where he was. they said, they have already taken him up to the jail. mr. stern. fine. mr. bookhout. just shortly thereafter the ambulance came, and i observed them roll oswald out of the jail office on the stretcher and that is the last---- mr. stern. i would like to clear up one point, mr. bookhout, about the number of interviews on saturday. your present recollection is that there were how many in which you participated? mr. bookhout. two on saturday. mr. stern. one at about what time and the other at what time? mr. bookhout. one was about : a.m., and the second one was about : p.m. mr. stern. you do not now recall any separate interview at about : on saturday? mr. bookhout. i don't specifically recall any separate interview at that time. i checked the record before coming over and the interviews that i have mentioned are the only ones i have in the report. mr. stern. would you describe briefly the conditions in the corridor outside the homicide and robbery area. mr. bookhout. on november and , the hallway in front of the homicide and robbery bureau located on the third floor of the city hall building was jammed with news media. from the elevator area to the end of the hallway, extending on past the homicide and robbery bureau entrance. mr. stern. could you hear anything from the hallway when you were in the interrogation room? mr. bookhout. no; there were two dallas police officers on duty at the entrance to the homicide and robbery bureau, who required you to identify yourself being that--before being allowed entrance into the bureau. the interviews of oswald were conducted in the private offices of capt. j. w. fritz, located within the same bureau, and the door to the private office was closed, and we did not hear any commotion going on outside in the halls while the interviews were in progress. mr. stern. did oswald ever say anything that you heard about the press and conditions in the hallway? mr. bookhout. the only thing i recall offhand is the incident mentioned previously about the press undoubtedly taking his photograph when he was going and coming from the homicide and robbery bureau. mr. stern. i think that covers all the questions i have, mr. bookhout. thank you very much for coming here. mr. bookhout. you are welcome. mr. stern. if there is anything that occurs to you that i haven't asked about and you think the commission should know, i would be delighted to have you tell me. mr. bookhout. i can't think of anything that i could add to what you have already heard. mr. stern. now, our reporter will transcribe your testimony and can make a copy available for you to read and sign. if you think it is accurate, you can waive that if you desire, and she will then send it directly to the commission. it makes no difference at all to the commission which you elect. mr. bookhout. i think that as far as i am concerned, it would be all right. mr. stern. fine. then you will waive? mr. bookhout. my idea--the purpose--only purpose i would have would be just to help you if there are any typographical errors in there. mr. stern. fine. and thank you for coming in today. mr. bookhout. all right. testimony of manning c. clements the testimony of manning c. clements was taken at : a.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. samuel a. stern, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. stern. good morning, mr. clements. will you rise and raise your right hand, please. do you swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. clements. i do. mr. stern. would you please sit down. state your name and address. mr. clements. manning c. clements, montrose [spelling] m-o-n-t-r-o-s-e drive, dallas, tex. mr. stern. what is your occupation, mr. clements? mr. clements. i'm a special agent of the federal bureau of investigation. mr. stern. how long have you been a member of the federal bureau of investigation? mr. clements. twenty-three years and approximately months. mr. stern. how long have you been assigned to the dallas office? mr. clements. since april . mr. stern. on november , , were you on duty as a special agent? mr. clements. i was. mr. stern. did your duties that morning before noon concern the visit of the president? mr. clements. no. mr. stern. will you relate to us what happened when you first heard the news of the shooting of the president? mr. clements. i arrived at the office following lunch and shortly thereafter heard of the shooting at the motorcade, and my superior instructed me to go to the office of the chief of police. i was to offer the services of the federal bureau of investigation for whatever use the police might find them of benefit. mr. stern. what did you do then? mr. clements. i went to the police station, arriving there at approximately o'clock. i immediately contacted the office of the chief. i found that he was out. i contacted capt. glen king, his administrative assistant, and captain lunday, who was also on duty in the chief's office. contacted art hammet, the public relations representative, who was occupying the desk in the outer office of the chief. i informed each of them as to the reason for my presence and that any requests that they might have for fbi assistance, information or otherwise, could be given to me and i would in turn, relay their request to our dallas office. mr. stern. what occurred next? mr. clements. during the course of the next several hours i was in occasional contact with various representatives of the police department, in contact with my own office by telephone. served more or less as a liaison officer to relay instructions to any other fbi agents who were on the premises. mr. stern. when did you first hear of the arrest of lee harvey oswald? mr. clements. i can't fix the exact time. i am certain that i heard almost immediately after the arrest, because i learned from police personnel of the shooting of officer tippit, and thereafter, when they received radio reports, i was generally aware of such report. so, i became aware of the arrest of oswald, i would say, approximately coincidentally with the front office, or with the police department learning of the arrest. mr. stern. at that time his name meant nothing? mr. clements. repeat that. mr. stern. his name meant nothing to you? mr. clements. no. mr. stern. were you present when he was brought into the police headquarters? mr. clements. no. mr. stern. when did you first see oswald? mr. clements. i am, at this moment, uncertain of whether i saw him prior to personally interrogating him. i don't believe that i did. mr. stern. did you know that he was being interrogated, and that other special agents of the fbi were present? mr. clements. it was my understanding that he was being questioned and that fbi agents were participating. mr. stern. you were, then, pursuing other functions? mr. clements. yes. mr. stern. and they were, again, liaison activities? mr. clements. liaison--primarily. mr. stern. were you, mr. clements, the conduit for any information that the fbi had concerning oswald, to the dallas police department? mr. clements. no. mr. stern. i understand that you participated in an interrogation of oswald. would you tell me about that? mr. clements. sometime during the evening i did go to the homicide bureau office for some purpose i don't immediately recall, and there i saw one of our other agents, james bookhout, and i asked him if anyone had, to his knowledge, taken a detailed physical description and detailed background information from oswald. he told me that such description and background data had not been obtained, and suggested that i do it. i learned from bookhout, as i recall, that oswald was, at the time, in a small office, the door of which was closed. i sought out captain fritz, in charge of the homicide bureau, or one of his ranking officers and asked if there was any objection to my interviewing oswald in the regard mentioned. i was told there was no objection. i entered this room and found that oswald was in the room, and being guarded by two officers who i presumed to be members of the dallas police department, but whom i did not personally know. mr. stern. they were not interrogating him? mr. clements. no; they were apparently just sitting on guard duty. mr. stern. then what happened? mr. clements. i introduced myself to the officers whose names i do not believe that i got, and also introduced myself to oswald. exhibited my credentials and told him that i would like to obtain from him some physical description, background, biographical data. he was agreeable, and i began my interview with him. mr. stern. can you approximate the time of day that this occurred--roughly? mr. clements. i would say the interview began roughly at p.m. mr. stern. how long did it last? and was it interrupted? mr. clements. i estimate the overall interview was approximately or minutes. i was interrupted twice, perhaps, during the interview, being informed that he was being taken out for a lineup. while he was gone i examined the contents of his wallet which was there on the desk, and identified to me as oswald's wallet. when he returned i continued the interview. mr. stern. approximately how long was he gone? mr. clements. i would estimate or minutes. mr. stern. so, that the total amount of time that you spent with him was something like minutes? mr. clements. that would be a rough estimate. mr. stern. did you see him again after that interview? mr. clements. yes; i saw him next at a time which i estimate was : p.m., the d. it was at a time when he was being taken to the basement of the city hall to a press conference. i saw him as he was being taken to the third floor from the offices of the homicide bureau, and i went to the basement myself arriving there before he did, and i saw him as he was being brought into the room where the press conference was held, and during the course of the press conference. mr. stern. did you see him again at any time after that press conference? mr. clements. no. mr. stern. what was his physical condition, as you observed it when you---- mr. clements. he---- mr. stern. when you entered the room to interrogate him? mr. clements. i observed a bruise, a bruise in the vicinity of one of his eyes. i believe minor scratches on his face. i saw no evidence that he was suffering from any physical pain or anything of that sort. mr. stern. was he handcuffed? mr. clements. yes. mr. stern. with his hands in front or behind? mr. clements. hands were in front. mr. stern. did he seem alert, or otherwise? mr. clements. he seemed alert. mr. stern. will you now tell, mr. clements, as much as you can recall of your interrogation of oswald at that time? mr. clements. i informed him of the purpose of my interview. he made no objection. i proceeded to get his name in full. i asked him questions as to his date and place of birth, height, weight, color of his hair and eyes, and as to the existence of any permanent scars or marks. as to the identities of close relatives, their addresses and occupations, and asked him as to his own occupation, residence, attempting to get them in chronological order, and asked as to his past occupations. mr. stern. did you review with him the contents of his wallet and ask him questions on any of it? mr. clements. i questioned him as to the fictitious, and obviously fictitious selective service card, which i found in his wallet. i recognized it as being fictitious card from the fact that the photograph was mounted on the card, and that there were obvious erasures in typing of information on the card itself. the card was in the name of an alek james hidell, but bore the photograph of oswald. mr. stern. what did he say about that card? mr. clements. he declined to answer any questions as to the reason of his possession of it. mr. stern. were there any other questions you put to him that he refused to answer? mr. clements. toward the conclusion of the interview and after he had been absent and returned i continued with the questions of past residence and past occupations. he responded to my questions. at a time when i asked him as to his present occupation he hesitated and told me that he thought the obtaining of his description and background information had become somewhat prolonged. he said that he had refused to be interviewed by other law enforcement officers previously, and that he had no intention of being interviewed by me. he continued that he knew the tactics of the fbi. he stated there was a counterpart or a similar agency in russia, that i was using the soft touch, where the approach of a russian agency would be different, but the tactics would be the same. mr. stern. at that point did he stop answering questions? mr. clements. no; at that point i asked the same question that i had asked previously, and he answered. mr. stern. did the interview continue beyond that? mr. clements. that was substantially the end of the interview. mr. stern. were there other persons present besides the two dallas police officers who were guarding him? mr. clements. no. mr. stern. at either time, either before or after he had been withdrawn from the lineup? mr. clements. no. mr. stern. did he seem hostile or resentful or irritated by the fact that you were an fbi agent? mr. clements. he did not state that, if that were the case. he was courteous, responsive as to any question. volunteered little information. mr. stern. but volunteered very little information. did he seem a person in command of himself? mr. clements. he seemed to be in command of himself both physically and mentally. he had what appeared to me to be a slightly haughty or arrogant attitude. mr. stern. did he complain to you about the treatment he was receiving? mr. clements. no. mr. stern. did he say anything to you about obtaining counsel, whether he had tried to? mr. clements. he said nothing whatsoever in that regard. mr. stern. did he say anything about any effort on his part to reach his family that had been unsuccessful? mr. clements. no; he did not. mr. stern. at the conclusion of your interview, did you leave the office in which he was being guarded and leave him behind? mr. clements. yes; i did. mr. stern. when you next saw him at this press conference in the basement, can you describe the conditions in that room? how many people were present? mr. clements. the corridor on the third floor was quite crowded, and when i reached the basement there were, i would estimate, perhaps people, all told, including officers, members of the press, perhaps others. there was a crowded condition i would say. mr. stern. quite a great deal of noise? mr. clements. i don't recall any great amount of noise. although, i do recall that members of the press were attempting to get oswald to respond to questions. mr. stern. how did he seem at that time? mr. clements. i saw no difference in his appearance to that at the time i had talked with him. mr. stern. did he then seem to you to be in command of himself, and alert? mr. clements. yes; he did. mr. stern. mr. clements, did you make a record of your interview with oswald? mr. clements. i did. mr. stern. how soon after the interview did you dictate that memorandum? mr. clements. the following day, november , . mr. stern. and have you reviewed that memorandum to refresh your memory of what occurred? mr. clements. i have. mr. stern. and you had no further contact, or didn't observe oswald, mr. clements, as i understand it, from the time of the press conference until he was, himself, killed on november ? mr. clements. that's correct. mr. stern. thank you very much. mr. clements. yes. mr. stern. the reporter will transcribe your testimony. you can, if you wish, review a copy of the transcript and sign it, or waive your signature and the reporter will send it directly to the commission, whichever you prefer. mr. clements. i think i would prefer to review it after it is typed. mr. stern. fine. the reporter will get in touch with you and give you an opportunity to review it. thank you very much for coming in. testimony of gregory lee olds the testimony of gregory lee olds was taken at : p.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. samuel a. stern, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. stern. will you stand and raise your right hand, please. do you solemnly swear that the evidence you are about to give shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. olds. i do. mr. stern. sit down, please, mr. olds. for the record will you state your name and address. mr. olds. gregory lee olds, timberlake, richardson, tex. mr. stern. what is your profession? mr. olds. i am an editor of a weekly newspaper. mr. stern. where? mr. olds. in richardson. mr. stern. what is your connection with the dallas civil liberties union? mr. olds. i am its president. mr. stern. were you its president in november of ? mr. olds. yes. mr. stern. can you tell us what transpired on november , in connection with your efforts and the efforts of your organization to assure that lee harvey oswald was not being denied his right to counsel? mr. olds. yes. i got a phone call about : that night from one of our board members saying they had been called by the president of the austin affiliate who was concerned about the reports that were being circulated on the air. i think oswald was directly quoted as saying he had not been given the opportunity to have counsel, and the suggestion was made that it might be well to check into this matter, and i believe i called this--i first called the police department to inquire about this, and finally talked to captain fritz, capt. will fritz, and was--raised the question, and he said, "no--" that oswald had been given the opportunity and declined. and i called--then i called the board member back who had called me---- mr. stern. excuse me. did captain fritz say that oswald did not want counsel at that time, or that he was trying to obtain his own counsel? mr. olds. what i was told, that he had been given the opportunity and had not made any requests. so, i called our board member back and conferred with him and he suggested that we go down and see about it at the police department, in person, to get further assurances. and he and i and two others of our organization met down there at the plaza hotel lobby about : , directly across the street from the police station, and we discussed the matter there, and i called mayor earle cabell at his office, but was told that he was busy at the moment so we went then over to the police station, and we got in there. let's see, it was up on the--i guess the third or fourth floor, wherever oswald was being questioned, and chuck webster, a lawyer--professor of law, who was known to the other three men with me said he had been there a good part of the time since the assassination, and that--we told him what we were there for, and he said he thought he knew who we could see to get our assurances. did you have something? mr. stern. no. mr. olds. we went to--first, we talked--conferred with captain king, i believe is the right name, who is, i believe, assistant to the chief of police. i'm not sure on that. we all went in with mr. webster, and this was shortly after : , or : , and captain king was, at this time, talking to somebody and said that oswald had just been charged with the assassination of president kennedy. he had here--earlier been charged with the assassination--i mean the murder of the policeman, tippit, and we told captain king what we were there for, and he said, he assured us that oswald had not made any requests for counsel. and we went outside of the office and went downstairs, at least--i didn't, but two of the others, i believe, went downstairs to the basement where justice of the peace david johnston was. he was the one that had held the--i believe an arraignment, i believe is the right term, at : when the first charge of murder was filed against oswald, and he also assured us that there had been an opportunity of--oswald's rights had been explained, and he had declined counsel. said nothing beyond that. i think that was the extent of our inquiry. mr. stern. what happened next? mr. olds. also we were--i believe chief curry was quoted to us as having said some--also that oswald had been advised of his rights to counsel. i am not sure who told me that. i believe that it was mr. webster. that was about all. we felt fairly well satisfied that oswald probably had not been deprived of his rights, so, we then broke up. i think the other men went home, and i went downstairs. i heard that there was going to be a press conference, so i thought i could stand in on that and--do you want me to go ahead and detail that? mr. stern. yes, this was---- mr. olds. this was right at midnight, i think, when oswald was brought in. mr. stern. brought in where? mr. olds. this was a squadroom and i am not sure what the term is. it is in the basement of the police station. that was being used as a pressroom. i believe it is some sort of a classroom or something of that sort. he was brought in there. i suppose a hundred reporters standing around on tables, and i understand ruby was there at the time, too, up near the front. mr. stern. you don't know that, though? mr. olds. i don't remember seeing him. mr. stern. do you know ruby? mr. olds. no; i don't. no; i remember someone saying what he was supposed to have said when--and helped somebody answer a question. i forget what it was, and oswald came in, and he was there about minutes---- mr. stern. were you permitted to enter this room without displaying any identification? mr. olds. yes; i wasn't stopped at all. nobody seemed to pay--it was pretty well confused around there, and nobody questioned me at all. mr. stern. would you have been known to the police as a newspaperman? mr. olds. i had never been in the police building. no one had any way of knowing who i was, or what my business was. mr. stern. did you have to identify yourself to get into this building to begin with? mr. olds. no; no problem getting into the building. no one in the lobby, and i don't believe there was anyone at all until you get up to the third or fourth floor where the police department section of the building begins. mr. stern. what were the conditions of this room and the scene? mr. olds. well, you mean the room where the press conference was held, where oswald came in? it was very noisy, and when oswald came in it was very confusing. the reporters were yelling at each other to get out of the way, and they were, the photographers were having a very bad time with it, and people kept crowding toward the front and standing on tables so that they could see and hear and oswald was there such a brief time, and was not able to be heard beyond the first row of reporters who were circled around him. thereafter reporters were interviewing reporters who were on the front row to see what had been said, and some sort of confusion existed, and enough of--oh, probably reporters standing around there, and it was a very confusing situation it seemed. and oswald had to be brought through the hall on his way from the interrogation room to his cell, so, he couldn't avoid being seen, and it was at this time that he was making the statements that were being quoted. mr. stern. did you observe this? mr. olds. no; i didn't. i saw this on television, but i could imagine it from that. mr. stern. how did he look to you when he was at this press conference? mr. olds. he looked remarkably composed and determined. he had a--i remarked afterwards that i would have been very much distraught, and he seemed very well self-contained and determined and maintained his innocence. i heard that, and beyond that scratch above--on his forehead and the eye that was swollen and the little--he looked all right. he looked a little tired, of course, and i think his clothes were dirty, but he looked remarkably in good shape, i thought. mr. stern. did this give you any further assurance that--about the right to counsel question? mr. olds. possibly so, it was---- mr. stern. i don't want to put the idea in your head. mr. olds. well, i know, but we had the idea that oswald was not being accurate when he said he had been denied, because in our dealings with the police here, we have had reason to believe that they are very careful of this sort of thing. and certainly in a case of this notoriety, certainly, our tendency was to believe that, but i have always been sorry that we didn't talk with oswald, because it was not clear whether we would be permitted to see him that night or not. mr. stern. but, you did not ask to see him? mr. olds. no; we did not, which i think was a mistake on my part. mr. stern. did anything transpire on saturday, november ? mr. olds. not so much. i was watching television most of the day and then the matter of counsel was raised, i think, during that day. during the--i suppose when oswald was being transferred in the hall again, and--let's see--this is when mr. nichols went down late this afternoon, i think around : , and he reported after that that he had seen oswald in respect to the same reasons that we had for going down there saturday night, to see if he wanted some sort of legal representation, and to make sure whether or not he was denied--being denied it, and he said that he was satisfied that--in essence, oswald told nichols he was satisfied with the situation. i can detail this conversation if you would like, as it was told to me. mr. stern. no. mr. olds. well, that was the essence of what was found out. mr. stern. was there any mention of the american civil liberties union? mr. olds. yes; it was at this time that we first heard the idea that oswald might be a member of the american civil liberties union, and this surprised us, because we felt we would have had a record of it in our files, but there is often a lapse of time when a member moves from one area to another and it takes some time to transfer him to the local affiliate. to make sure of this i called the national office in new york city, and it was night, of course there was no one there, but i finally got a number of one of the staff members and talked to him at his home in new jersey and told him about it, and he said, he would check on the matter. have somebody in new york, who lived near the office to go in and see about it, and he did and they found no such record at that time. however, it was later discovered that on november , he had sent a check for $ to the office, which was, i believe, discovered weeks later. mr. stern. mr. olds, i think that covers the matters that i am interested in. is there anything further that you would like to tell us? anything that you---- mr. olds. possibly later after this matter was disposed of, we became interested in the legal status of oswald's wife, marina, and a story in the new york times, i believe december , said something to the effect that perhaps she was being held incommunicado and in some way illegally detained. anyway, her status was not clear as far as the reporter was concerned, and our national office in new york city got a number of inquiries both by phone and personal calls and letters, telegrams, and they asked us in turn then, to see what we could find out about it. after a certain amount of negotiations with the secret service and fbi and so on, we sent a letter to mrs. oswald and she later wrote us that she was content with her situation, and was very happy with her status, in fact, it was for her interest. mr. stern. well, thank you very much, mr. olds for coming in today. the reporter will transcribe your testimony and you will then be notified when it is available and afforded an opportunity to read it and sign it. if you would like to waive that that is possible and the reporter would send the transcript directly to the commission. mr. olds. i will be glad to sign it. do you want me to come down here and do that? mr. stern. yes. mr. olds. when do you think it might be? mr. stern. it should be within the next week or so. mr. olds. all right, fine. mr. stern. thank you very much. testimony of h. louis nichols the testimony of h. louis nichols was taken at : a.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. samuel a. stern, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. stern. good morning, mr. nichols. will you stand and raise your right and be sworn. do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. nichols. i do. mr. stern. sit down, please. as you know the president's commission has been instructed by president johnson to inquire into all the facts surrounding the assassination of president kennedy. this morning i would like to cover with you what you know about lee harvey oswald, whom i understand you interviewed at the dallas police headquarters. would you state your name and business address? mr. nichols. h. louis nichols. republic bank building, dallas. mr. stern. what is your profession? mr. nichols. i am an attorney. mr. stern. and how long have you been a member of the bar? mr. nichols. since . mr. stern. what bars are you a member of? mr. nichols. state bar of texas, and admitted to practice in the northern district of texas, federal court. mr. stern. what position do you presently hold with the dallas bar association? mr. nichols. i am a member of the board of directors for the dallas association, at the present time. during , i was president of the dallas bar association. mr. stern. during the calendar year, ? mr. nichols. yes. mr. stern. i see. would you relate for us, mr. nichols, in your own words, what occurred respecting lee harvey oswald and your inquiry whether he had the opportunity to avail himself of counsel during the period of his detention, which began on november , ? mr. nichols. sometime in the afternoon on saturday the d of november, as i best recall, in the neighborhood of about o'clock, i received a phone call from a lawyer friend of mine in dallas who asked me if i knew whether or not mr. oswald was represented by an attorney. i told him i did not. he said he had received a phone call from an eastern lawyer, dean of one of the law schools in the east, who told him that the news media up there were saying that oswald could not get a lawyer to represent him in dallas, and he wanted to know if i knew anything about the situation. i told him i had not been following it too closely on television, because i was out friday and then out with my boy on saturday morning and didn't know really whether or not he had a lawyer. and he said, well, that was the information he had received, and wanted to know what i knew about it, and if he didn't have a lawyer, or wasn't able to get one whether or not the bar association could, or would do anything about it. i told him i didn't know what the situation was, but that i would be glad to look into it, and--it had been less than hours since mr. oswald had been arrested. in order to refresh my memory as to what the requirement of the state law is, and since i don't practice criminal law, i called a lawyer friend of mine in dallas who is a criminal lawyer and asked him just to tell me offhand what the obligation was to appoint lawyers in criminal cases, if a person did not have someone to represent him, and he told me that the obligation was only to appoint counsel after a man had been indicted, and that, as he understood it, since mr. oswald had not been indicted there was no legal obligation to appoint an attorney. i also received another call shortly thereafter from another lawyer friend of mine in dallas who said he had received a call from a dean of a law school. one of the calls was from one dean of one law school. the other was from another. i have forgotten which schools they were, and i don't remember which called first with regard to the various deans, but he wanted to know from me whether or not the bar association was doing anything. whether oswald had a lawyer. and whether or not if he didn't have one, we should do anything about getting him one, and i told him i had had a previous telephone call from another friend of mine, and that i had made some inquiry, and at this time i did not know whether oswald had a lawyer or was getting a lawyer, but that i was going to make some inquiry to find out about it. after talking to the second friend about it who called, i then called mr. henry wade, the district attorney, to see whether or not he knew whether or not oswald was represented by a lawyer or not. i did not know for sure at that time whether he was, simply because i had no way of knowing whether he was represented or not. i hadn't talked to anybody who was really informed, and i called mr. wade. he said he didn't know for sure whether he was or not, as far as he knew he hadn't been contacted by any lawyer who purported to represent oswald. i asked him whether or not either he or anybody in his office had been advised that oswald wanted a lawyer, or had made a request for a lawyer, and he said as far as he knew he had not asked for a lawyer. i asked him too, as he was going up there, and i asked him if oswald requested a lawyer and didn't have a lawyer would he tell him that the dallas bar association would get a lawyer if he needed one. by that time i had time to think about what i thought my obligation should be, and realizing that under the circumstances maybe some people might overlook the fact that oswald had rights that needed to be protected at the same time, and if he didn't have a lawyer, regardless of what the legal obligation was to appoint him a lawyer, we, the bar association, ought to look into the matter. mr. wade said he was going to go up there later on in the evening and he would talk to his assistants who were in closer contact than he was, and if oswald wanted a lawyer--asked for a lawyer or wanted a lawyer appointed--he would tell him of my conversation. i then called glen king, and a captain on the police force that i knew. i used to work for the city attorney's office, and still represent the city credit union and have a brother on the police force, so, i have known many of these people for many years. i called captain king and asked him whether or not oswald was represented by an attorney, if he knew if there was an attorney up there, or anybody who had been up there representing him, and captain king said that as far as he knew there had been no one representing him, and as far as he knew, oswald had not asked for a lawyer. he had not asked for the right to call a lawyer, and--or had not asked that a lawyer be furnished to him--and captain king said, "if he does, i am certainly going to call you and let you know, because we want to be sure if he wants a lawyer he gets one. we don't want it to be a situation of anybody saying that we deprived him of the right to have a lawyer." i said, "well, glen, if you know at any time that he asks for a lawyer, or wants a lawyer, or needs a lawyer, will you tell him that you have talked to me, as president of the bar association, and that i have offered to get him a lawyer if he wants one." and glen said, "well, i'll just throw it back to you. you come down and talk to him. i would be glad to have you talk to him." i said, "i didn't know whether i wanted to or not at this point." i hadn't quite decided at that point whether we could do something about it, and i didn't know whether oswald had his own attorney, but i told captain king if i decided to take him up on his offer i would come and see him. it was about : or o'clock. by that time i had talked to a criminal lawyer, i had talked to mr. wade, i had talked to these two lawyer friends of mine in trying to decide what, if anything i should do. up to that time i had not been told by any of these people that oswald had asked for a lawyer, or been denied a lawyer, or even knew whether he had a lawyer. none of them knew for sure. i didn't--i then received a call from another lawyer who was a professor out at s.m.u., and he wanted to know whether or not the bar association was doing anything about getting a lawyer for oswald. i told him what had transpired, what i had done, and i hadn't decided what should be done at this time, if anything by me, as president of the bar association. he seemed to think that it would be advisable and would be helpful if i would go up and satisfy myself personally as to whether or not oswald had any lawyer, wanted a lawyer or was asking for a lawyer and hadn't been able to get one, and i told him that i had not decided what to do, so, i sat around and decided if it had to be done. it seemed like enough time had gone by, and enough uncertainty among the people i talked to as to whether or not he had a lawyer or had asked for a lawyer that i decided i might as well go up and talk to him, so, i cleaned up and went on up to the city hall. that was probably : or so in the afternoon. mr. stern. city hall is where he was confined? mr. nichols. city hall in dallas, where oswald was confined. having worked there i knew where the chief's office was. i knew captain king, the administrative assistant to the chief, and his office was in the same place so, i went to the third floor of the city hall, now called the police and courts building. the building in which the police department is located and the jail is located, and where i assumed oswald was at that time. i went up to the third floor, and when i got off the elevator there was just a whole mob of reporters and photographers and television cameras and cables and so forth stretched out on that floor. cables running in both directions, and i went down into the chief's office, which is the eastern end of the building, and when i went in there, there were a number of people in his office, in the reception room, three or four people back in the chief's office, chief curry's office, a number of people, and i asked one of the officers in the reception room if captain king was there and he said, "well, he didn't think so." about that time chief curry looked up and saw me, and he knew me and motioned me in, and i went in there and he introduced me to one of the fbi agents who was there, and i told him i was up there as president of the bar association looking for captain king. i had talked to him earlier and i had come up there to see whether or not mr. oswald had a lawyer, or needed a lawyer, or wanted the dallas bar association to do anything. the chief said that he was glad to see me and would take me up to see oswald himself and, so, we immediately left his office and started to another part of the building, and he asked me where i wanted to talk to him. if i wanted to be taken to a room or some place, or what would be convenient with me, and i told him that any place would be all--i just wanted to visit with the man and see what his situation was with regard to him having a lawyer. so, we then went through a door on the third floor and got into the elevator and went up to the sixth floor, and the chief again asked me where i wanted to talk to him. i said, "well, just any place." by that time we had gotten to a portion of the jail that was separated by bars and a door. beyond that door were three separate cells, and there was an officer seated outside one, and then we went through the first door and got to that point and mr. oswald was in the center of the three cells, no one being in the other two, and there was an officer seated outside there. the chief had the officer open the door, and he introduced me to oswald, and told him my name and said that i was the president of the dallas bar association and had come up to see him about whether or not he needed or wanted a lawyer, and then the chief stepped back and--i don't really know how far away. he was at least--he was far enough removed where i couldn't observe him or see him there in the cell. the officer stayed just right outside the door there. i reintroduced myself to oswald and told him my name, and that i was president of the dallas bar, and that i had come up to see him about whether or not he had a lawyer, or needed a lawyer, or wanted a lawyer, and suggested that he sit down. so, he sat on one bunk and i sat on the other. maybe or feet apart. when i got there he was lying on a bunk, and then he stood up when i came in and then he sat on one bunk and i sat on the other, much as you and i are seated here, only actually, a little bit closer, and i asked him if he had a lawyer, and he said, "well, he really didn't know what it was all about, that he was--had been incarcerated, and kept incommunicado," and i said, "well, i have come up to see whether or not you want a lawyer, because as i understand--" i am not exactly sure what i said there, or whether he said something about not knowing what happened to president kennedy, or i said that i understood that he was arrested for the shot that killed the president, and i don't remember who said what after that. this is a little bit vague. i had covered that point in detail, and i don't recall exactly, but in any event, our conversation was such that i informed him that i was there to see whether or not he had a lawyer, or wanted a lawyer, and he said--he asked me first did i know a lawyer in new york named john abt, and i don't know if it is a-b-t, or a-p-t. mr. stern. i believe it is a-b-t. mr. nichols. i believe it is. in new york city, i said i didn't know him, and he said, "well, i would like to have him to represent me," and at some period i believe prior to that, either in talking to the police, or talking to--must have been talking to either captain king or the chief--i had been told that some effort had been made to get hold of mr. abt, and that he was in connecticut at his home, and maybe, and i have forgotten who said who was trying to get ahold of him. at least, i did vaguely know that someone was trying to get ahold of him, but i told mr. oswald i didn't know him. he said, "well, that is the man he would like to have represent him." then he asked me if i knew any lawyers who were members of the american civil liberties union, and he said, "well, i am a member of that organization, and i would like to have somebody who is a member of that organization represent me." and i said, "i'm sorry, i don't know anybody who is a member of that organization." although, as it turned out later, a number of lawyers i know are members. two or three of them called me later. he said, "well, if i can't get either one of those, and if i can----" mr. stern. that is either---- mr. nichols. "either mr. abt or someone who is a member of the american civil liberties union, and if i can find a lawyer here who believes in anything i believe in, and believes as i believe, and believes in my innocence"--then paused a little bit, and went on a little bit and said, "as much as he can, i might let him represent me." i said, "what i am interested in knowing is right now, do you want me or the dallas bar association to try to get you a lawyer?" he said, "no, not now." he said, "you might come back next week, and if i don't get some of these other people to represent me, i might ask you to get somebody to represent me." i said, "well, now, all i want to do is to make it clear to you, and to me, whether or not you want me or the dallas bar association to do anything about getting a lawyer right now." and he said "no." i was satisfied in my own mind that he knew what he was doing, and that he didn't want me or the dallas bar association to do anything right now. so, i left, and as i left the chief asked me whether or not i wanted to make a statement to the press, and i said, "well, i don't know whether i do or not. i don't know whether it is the thing to do or not." and he said, "well, they are going to be right outside the door there, and if you want to say anything this would be an opportunity to do it." he said, "incidentally, i am very glad you came up here. we don't want any question coming up about us refusing to let him have a lawyer. as far as i know, he has never asked for one. he has never asked to call one." and i believe the chief mentioned that mr. abt's name, but he said, "he has never asked us to call him." he said, "do you think we have an obligation?" and i said, "i don't know." he said, "i am glad that you came down and talked to him. at least that takes a problem off of us about not furnishing him a lawyer." and so, we--about that time we stepped out of the door and there was just a whole swarm of photographers and cameramen standing right there. right outside the door on the third floor. they came out in the third floor, reached back down in the third floor, and the chief told them who i was, and what i had been up there for, and oh, for or minutes, what turned out to be live television interview, whether or not--they asked me if i thought he was guilty, and if he had admitted anything, and i told them that i didn't ask him, and he didn't tell me, and they merely wanted to know the reason i was up here, and that interview is something, i assume, that you have, or will be made available. i don't remember exactly what transpired, and then--but they asked me what his attitude was, whether he was belligerent and--or scared, and to me, he appeared to be neither belligerent nor scared. he appeared to be a man that was pretty calm, i thought, under the circumstances. he appeared to me that he knew where he was and pretty much what his rights were with regard to being represented, and he knew apparently--at least the conversation was that if he didn't get somebody to represent him that he wanted that he could always fall back on the bar association, or somebody, and i had told him that i would see him next week if he wanted me to, and i satisfied myself at least, to the extent, that the man appeared to know what he was doing. he did not appear to be irrational. he appeared to be calm. he turned down my offer of help, and i felt like at that point that was all i needed to do, and this was later saturday afternoon, and i had no inkling that anything else, except maybe that the next week if he didn't get a lawyer i might hear from him, or check into it, and that's all i know about mr. lee harvey oswald. mr. stern. that's quite a complete statement. let's just cover a few details. what was his physical condition, as you observed it? mr. nichols. well, he had a little scratch, or bruise over one eye. i have forgotten whether over the left or right, but other than that, as i recall, there were no indication of any other injuries or marks on him that i could tell. he was dressed, i believe, in a white t-shirt and slacks, and appeared to me to be in normal condition. i mean, there was nothing obviously wrong with him from a physical standpoint, as i could observe. mr. stern. did he seem well rested, or tired? mr. nichols. no; he seemed all right. when i went in there he was lying on his back and he got up and he didn't--he looked like he was calm, and was rested, and it--didn't appear to have--now this is a guess, and my own observation, did not appear to me to have been mistreated. i was interested in observing whether or not he--it looked like he had been mistreated, because, as a lawyer, i anticipate perhaps that he--if he had been mistreated, or might claim he had been mistreated it was something i should have observed at that time, and i observed nothing to indicate that. mr. stern. he, i gather, used the word "incommunicado" to describe---- mr. nichols. yes; that was his word. mr. stern. did he elaborate on that, or any--or indicate to you that he had not been able to see members of his family or other people of his choice? mr. nichols. no; he did not say that he had been refused anything. just didn't elaborate, and i really didn't ask him at that point. my inquiry was intentionally very limited. i merely wanted to know whether he had a lawyer, if he had a lawyer then i had no problems. if he asked for a lawyer and they did not offer him one, that was contrary to what i had been told, because i had been told, as far as the police were concerned, and mr. wade, as he recalled, that the man had never asked for a lawyer. nor had he asked to call a lawyer, for the right to call a lawyer, so that i was interested in knowing whether or not he had a lawyer and whether or not he had requested a lawyer and been refused, because the story up east was that he couldn't get a lawyer to represent him, and i knew that that wasn't true, because i know dallas lawyers, and i know that if the man had to have a lawyer, we could have gotten one for him. so, i didn't go into the other questions, or whether or not he wanted to see his family and hadn't been permitted. i really was concerned about whether or not he had a lawyer or wanted a lawyer, or whether we had any obligations to furnish him one. mr. stern. yes; i see. did he elaborate on his statement to you that he preferred a lawyer who believed in what he believed in, or was this as---- mr. nichols. not at all. he said--i didn't ask him, because i didn't know any lawyers--and i didn't know what he believed in, and i really wasn't concerned at that stage in the man's beliefs or what he had done or not done, actually, i just wanted--the man was in jail, and it occurred to me that it would be easy to overlook his rights at that time in view of the great emotion and somebody ought to determine whether or not he wanted a lawyer, and i decided as president of the bar association maybe that was my job to do it, so, i went up there to see about it. mr. stern. you say he said he wanted a lawyer who believed in his innocence? mr. nichols. as much as he could. mr. stern. as he could? mr. nichols. yes. mr. stern. did he elaborate? mr. nichols. no; and i didn't ask him to elaborate on it because at that stage i didn't know to what extent i would, or wanted to, or should become embroiled in the facts. i wanted to know whether he needed a lawyer, and i didn't anticipate that i would be his lawyer, because i don't practice criminal law. they asked me, the newspapers did, and i honestly don't know what my answer would have been if they had asked me, "well, will you represent him?" we can debate about that now until doomsday. all i know is when i went up to talk to him i did not anticipate being the lawyer, because i don't practice criminal law, although, when i talked to henry wade he said, jokingly, i hope it was jokingly, and if the guy wants a lawyer he was going to request the judge that he appoint me and the president of the criminal bar association to represent him. i took that to be not a serious suggestion, because he knows that i don't practice criminal law, although, on reflection that probably would have been a good recommendation, since generally, i suppose, that if they appointed the president of the bar association they couldn't say that he was getting inferior representation. i am not bragging about that, but normally, i think that would be the normal reaction that if they appointed the president of the criminal bar association and the president of the local bar association then at least the man would be represented. mr. stern. what is the practice in this jurisdiction regarding the appointment of counsel for indigents accused in criminal cases? mr. nichols. basically, i think that would follow the statutes which provide that where it comes to the attention of the court, that a man charged with a felony is not represented by an attorney that the court will appoint an attorney to represent him. the statute further provides that the attorney appointed to represent indigents be paid $ a day for each day actually present at the trial of the case in court, and not to exceed $ for the handling of an appeal. the usual procedure is, i believe, when it comes to the attention of the judge that an accused in jail is not represented by an attorney--i am talking about a felony case now--or a man, whether he is in jail or not, if he makes requests of the court to appoint him a lawyer, the judges of the criminal district court will, and do appoint lawyers to represent those people. mr. stern. but, ordinarily, the appointment is handled by the judiciary? mr. nichols. yes. mr. stern. and there is no, i take it, organized system of the bar association to represent indigents? mr. nichols. well, the criminal--there are two bar associations in dallas. one is the criminal bar association, the other is the dallas bar association, and you may belong to both, or neither, or either one. the criminal bar association did, last year, attempt to create and establish a fund to defray some investigative expenses of lawyers appointed to represent indigents. one of the programs which i had hoped to get really underway last year when i was president was to, and we had a committee working on it, was to provide more lawyers who would be willing to accept appointments to represent indigent defendants in the criminal cases. my idea was that if we had or lawyers who would say, "if i am requested to, or appointed by the court, i will represent these people." and it was my desire to have a large number of lawyers who would do that. the committee, unfortunately, bogged down and i got involved in other matters that i guess i considered more urgent to me, and didn't pursue that, but i did go down and talk to one of the judges last year just to see what the procedure was because i was interested, and the judges do appoint these people, i mean, do appoint attorneys to represent these people, and i talked to one of the judges and he said that they have never yet had an occasion where he needed a lawyer to represent a defendant that they haven't been able to get one. so, although some of these lawyers may do this more than others, as far as i know, none of them have refused because it was too much of an imposition on them. mr. stern. your activities with respect to oswald were unusual, though, and not pursuant to any established arrangement? mr. nichols. that's right. mr. stern. something you did because of the nature of the case, and the questions that had been raised, and your own questions about his treatment? mr. nichols. that's correct. mr. stern. did you, mr. nichols, make any notes of your activities on november , , either at the time, or did you at any later time have occasion to prepare a written report of your activities? mr. nichols. i did not make any notes at the time, and i didn't make any notes as such, subsequently, after mr. oswald was killed. and why, i don't know. it didn't occur to me to do so. later mr. leon jaworski, a houston, tex., attorney, called me and said that he was going to go to miami, fla., to the meeting of american trial lawyers, and had been asked to make a report of some sort on the oswald matter and he asked me if i would write him a letter outlining what i had done in connection with interviewing oswald, and attempting to see whether or not he wanted the dallas bar association to provide counsel. i did, at that time, write a letter to mr. jaworski outlining as i recalled at that time exactly what transpired. later the president of the houston bar association, george barrow, called me and said he was going to make a little talk in houston, or write a little article in a publication and would like to know what i had done, and he knew about the letter i had sent to jaworski, and wanted to know if i would send him a copy of my letter to him, or outline what i had done. i said it would be easier to give him a copy of the letter i had written to leon, because i have it, so i sent him a copy and those are the only notes i made or statements that i have made in writing regarding this transaction except i did reproduce a copy of the letter to mr. jaworski, which i furnished to you. mr. stern. i show you now a copy of the letter dated february , , to mr. jaworski. is that the copy you furnished to me? mr. nichols. that is the copy i furnished to you, and the copy of the letter which i wrote to mr. jaworski on that date. mr. stern. would you initial each of the four pages of that photostatic copy, please, which we'll attach to your deposition as exhibit a. thank you, sir. i believe that completes all the questions i have, mr. nichols. thank you very much for coming in today. mr. nichols. you certainly are welcome. mr. stern. the court reporter will transcribe the deposition and we can furnish a copy of it to you for your review and signature, or the reporter can send the transcript directly to the commission without your review, if you care to waive---- mr. nichols. i would like to have a copy of it, if i may do so, and i understand that it will be available at some expense, whatever it costs--i want to furnish it to the bar association for their records. mr. stern. fine. testimony of forrest v. sorrels the testimony of forrest v. sorrels was taken at : a.m., on may , , at maryland avenue ne., washington, d.c. by mr. samuel a. stern, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. david w. belin, assistant counsel for the president's commission, and mr. fred b. smith, deputy general counsel, u.s. treasury department were present. mr. stern. good morning, mr. sorrels. mr. sorrels. good morning, sir. mr. stern. you understand that this is a continuation of your deposition, and that you are still under oath? mr. sorrels. yes, sir. mr. stern. yesterday you covered with mr. hubert the events that transpired from the time of the shooting of lee harvey oswald forward.[ ] [ ] that portion of the deposition of forrest v. sorrels appears in another volume, and can be found by consulting the index. i would like to go back now with you and cover the advance preparations for the president's trip, and come up to the time of the shooting of oswald. mr. sorrels. yes, sir. mr. stern. would you tell us first something of your experience in presidential protection work through the course of your career in the secret service? mr. sorrels. yes, sir; the first real assignment that i had in connection with presidential work was in , at dallas, tex., when president roosevelt came there, and there was a parade downtown, motorcade out to the cotton bowl at fair park, where he made a talk, and then from there to the adolphus hotel for luncheon, and from the adolphus hotel to lee park, where he unveiled a monument, and then motored to fort worth, tex., where there was a reception committee that met him on the lawn at the texas pacific railroad station, and then motored to a park in fort worth where he made a talk, and then continued on out to his son elliott's ranch, west of fort worth. during the time that president roosevelt was in office, there were a number of times that he came to fort worth to visit his son. one in particular that i recall was during the second world war, when it was necessary that his travels be kept secret, and we were able to get him into his son's home and visit the airplane factory where the b- was manufactured there at fort worth, and get him out of town, and it was some hours after that before any reporter ever found out and called our office inquiring about the president. i have been to washington on inaugurations two times that i can recall, the last one being at the time that president kennedy was inaugurated. i have been assigned on surveys in connection with inaugurations. i have been in mexico on three different occasions when the president visited there, to mexico city, monterey, the last one being at falcon dam, when the dam was dedicated by the two presidents of mexico and the united states. mr. stern. that was president eisenhower? mr. sorrels. yes, sir. mr. stern. have you worked on visits by president kennedy to texas before this? mr. sorrels. yes, sir; there were two visits that he made there--one a very short notice one of a matter of a few hours, when he came to dallas to visit mr. rayburn in baylor hospital. then when he came to bonham, at the time mr. rayburn was buried--we had the assignments in connection with that. mr. stern. these were informal trips, without publicity? mr. sorrels. there was publicity. for example, the one that he came to the hospital, it wasn't announced until about o'clock in the morning that he would be there. he came there, i guess, a little over or hours after that--just a very quick trip, and not much time to make any preparation. but, fortunately, everything went real good. mr. stern. mr. sorrels, is there any significant difference that occurs to you in the protective arrangements, including the advance arrangements, for the november trip to dallas by president kennedy, and this trip you were telling us about that president roosevelt made to dallas, which involved a similar motorcade, in , i believe you said? mr. sorrels. no, sir. mr. stern. about the same advance preparation? mr. sorrels. yes, sir. mr. stern. protective organization? mr. sorrels. yes, sir. of course in the one that president roosevelt came there, it was more functions and more places to go, including two cities. mr. stern. yes. but---- mr. sorrels. but the actual preparation was along the same lines. mr. stern. you have been following a procedure and pattern as long as you have been doing this kind of work? mr. sorrels. yes, sir. mr. stern. it has been pretty much the same procedure? mr. sorrels. that is correct, sir. mr. stern. when you know that a president is coming to the area under your jurisdiction, what arrangements do you try to work out with the police department? mr. sorrels. we will have a conference with the chief of police and his key personnel, usually when it is determined what the program is going to be. in some instances where there has to be a meeting with the advance man from the white house detail, and for the local committee and the plans are not entirely solid, we have found that to bring the police in at that time is a little bit premature, because i have known of instances where we have had such meetings and the orders have been cut, and then they had to be changed, because of some change. so, insofar as is possible, the meeting with the police is held at a time when we know pretty much what the program is going to be. and that procedure is followed in every instance. in some instances, as i mentioned a moment ago there, when president kennedy came to the baylor hospital, we didn't have very much time--it is something we have to work out very rapidly, and which was done in this instance with the chief of police and his key men, and the security was set up on a very, very short notice. mr. stern. but normally, when you have the time, you like, as i understand it, to try to make your arrangements---- mr. sorrels. oh, yes; as far in advance as possible, because we realize that it is quite a task for them, because they have got many men involved, and many things that have to be taken into consideration, so that their orders can be properly drawn and the men dispatched to the proper places with a knowledge of what they are supposed to do. mr. stern. but you do try to have the trip or the motorcade route, if there is to be a motorcade, pretty well worked out before you go to the police? mr. sorrels. we usually have an idea what we would like to do, and we, of course, confer with the police because they may have in instances knowledge that we don't have about a certain area that it might not be appropriate to use or to go into. mr. stern. let's see if we can relate this now to president kennedy's trip to dallas in november. when did you first hear that he was to make this trip, mr. sorrels? mr. sorrels. on november , , i received a long distance call from special agent in charge gerald a. behn, of the white house detail, stating that the president would probably visit dallas about november , and that there had been a couple of buildings suggested, one of them being the trade mart, which he understood had about entrances to it, and six catwalks over the area where the luncheon would be. and that the second choice that had been suggested then was the women's building at the state fair grounds. that was another place referred to as a trade center, which is actually market hall, which is across the street from the trade mart. he instructed that i make a survey of these buildings and report back to him the conditions. mr. stern. what did you do? mr. sorrels. accompanied by special agent robert a. stewart of my office, we went to the trade mart and looked the situation over there, and we did find that there were entrances coming into, you might call it, a courtyard where the luncheon was to have been--entrances coming into that area. and that there were two suspension bridges or catwalks on the second floor and on the third floor. the outside entrances were no particular problem, but it did mean that it would take quite a bit of manpower to cover each one of the entrances that could come on to the balcony, you might say, that was entirely around on the second and the third floors. we then went to the market hall, which was ideal insofar as security measures were concerned, in that there were only three outside entrances, and it was a huge hall, , square feet, with no columns, and you could seat about , people in there. but there was another function going to be there at that time--the american bottling association was going to have, as i recall, an exhibit there. so that part was out. we then went to fair park, where we made a survey of the women's building. it is a place where they have exhibits during the fair of all kinds of handiwork and things like that. that building had about , square feet in it, and you could seat about , people in it. securitywise it wasn't bad at all, because there were two end openings to the building, and there was actually an area where you could drive a car in there. but the building was not satisfactory for that type of function--the president of the united states coming there--because the ceilings were quite low, the air-conditioning equipment and everything was all exposed, there were many steel suspension supports throughout the area. i then returned to my office and telephoned to mr. behn and informed him of my findings and told him that securitywise the women's building appeared to be preferable, but that it wasn't a very nice place to take the president. then---- mr. stern. what did you tell him about the trade mart? mr. sorrels. i told him that there were many entrances there and that it would pose a problem manpowerwise to have the proper security there. mr. stern. but did you indicate to him that this could be handled? mr. sorrels. i don't recall whether i specifically said it could be or not. definitely i was under the impression that if the place was chosen, we would take the necessary precautions and would have it properly manned. mr. stern. you did not, in any event, tell him that you didn't think the trade mart would be a safe place? mr. sorrels. no, i don't recall i told him it would not be a safe place, no, sir. mr. stern. when did all this happen, mr. sorrels? was it immediately after november ? mr. sorrels. yes, it was on november . mr. stern. what was the next event in your advance preparations for the president's trip? mr. sorrels. on november , special agent winston g. lawson, from the white house detail, and mr. jack puterbaugh, had arrived at dallas the evening before, and they came to my office, and we then went to the office of mr. a. w. cullum, president of the chamber of commerce, and we then went to the trade mart, and then to the women's building at the state fairgrounds. mr. stern. mr. sorrels, would you look at this xerox copy of a two-page memorandum which appears to be signed by you, dated november , , and carries the identifying number co- - . can you identify that for me, please? mr. sorrels. yes, sir; that is a memorandum which was prepared by me on november , . mr. stern. did you make this memorandum in the ordinary course of your work, or were you specially instructed to make it? mr. sorrels. as i recall it, i was instructed to make the report, but it is a procedure we ordinarily follow in making memorandums of such surveys, in confirmation of the phone calls. mr. stern. did you make it from notes that you had or from memory? mr. sorrels. both, sir. mr. stern. did you preserve the notes from which this was made, or destroy them? mr. sorrels. no, i preserved them. i have them here--regarding the phone call and the notes that i made, regarding the survey at the trade mart and women's club. mr. stern. may i see them, please? mr. sorrels. yes, sir. mr. stern. and this covers what you have just been telling us about in connection with the selection of the luncheon site for the president's visit? mr. sorrels. yes, sir. mr. stern. have you reviewed your memorandum of november recently, mr. sorrels, in preparation for your testimony here? mr. sorrels. yes, sir. mr. stern. is there any respect in which you would like to change anything that is in the memorandum in view of your further consideration of the events described? mr. sorrels. there is only one point there, about the date that we went by the police station. mr. stern. where is that covered in your memorandum? mr. sorrels. that is in the last paragraph on the first page, where it is stated that on november , that we went to the office of the chief of police curry. i was under the impression that it was possibly the day before. i could be in error on that. mr. stern. in any event, it was after mr. lawson had arrived, and that was on november ? mr. sorrels. yes. i might state here that i had previously received two phone calls from chief of police jesse curry about the president's trip there. he was, of course, wanting to get the information as soon as possible, so that they could start their preparations. and he actually called me before mr. lawson got there, and he called me again after mr. lawson had gotten there, before we had gone to see him. and i explained to the chief that, on the first call, there would be someone from the white house detail coming to dallas, and he requested that i get in touch with him just as soon as he got there. on the second call, i told him that the man from the white house detail had arrived, but that we were still working on the plans, that it was not definitely known at that time where the luncheon was going to be, and that just as soon as it was determined where the luncheon was going to be, that we would then get in touch with him. and it was at my suggestion to mr. lawson that we go by the police department on the first time, because i did not want the chief to feel that we were leaving him out in the dark, so to speak. and, for that reason, i suggested that we go by at the time we did--because, actually, we were still in the process of having these meetings to work out the final plans, and so forth. mr. stern. that is the visit you refer to in this last paragraph on page ? mr. sorrels. that is right. mr. stern. your memorandum, mr. sorrels, gives me enough information on many of the points we are interested in, and i don't think we have to cover those, unless you would like to add something to them. i would like to have you tell us about the selection of the motorcade route, what you had to do with that, and what you know of that. mr. sorrels. after it was determined that there was going to be a motorcade, which was actually after mr. lawson got there, we had discussed the ways to get to the trade mart, and one of my questions was why don't we bring the president from the texas hotel to the trade mart by motorcade. mr. stern. texas hotel---- mr. sorrels. in fort worth--because i knew we would be able to pick the president up at the texas hotel in fort worth, and by motor get him to the trade mart in a shorter time than it would take him to go from the texas hotel to the air force base, and go by plane to love field, and from love field go to the trade mart. but that was ruled out because the previous plans were that he was to come by plane. and, of course, it would not have been practical to have brought him by motor from fort worth if there was going to be a downtown parade, because it would have meant coming in from the west side of the city, and we would have to go right back to the west side of the city to get to the trade mart, which would have meant a complete loop through the downtown section. so when it was determined that there was going to be a downtown parade, mr. lawson, of course, wanted to know which would be the best route to take him to the trade mart from love field. so mr. lawson and i drove what i thought would be the best route and the most direct route to the trade mart, bearing in mind that there would be a parade through the downtown section. so we drove that route. and then later on we had the police go with us, and we went over the same route. there were some discussions as to one section, whether it would be better to get onto what we have known as the central expressway there, and come off of it into main street. but that was ruled out because of safety measures, going into the expressway, and it would only be for such a short distance. another thing, too, they wanted as many people as possible to see him, that would not have any opportunity to see him on the central expressway. so the route that we chose was from love field approach to mockingbird lane, left on mockingbird lane to lemmon, down lemmon to turtle, right on turtle creek to cedar springs, left on cedar springs to harwood, right from harwood on main street, continue down main street to houston street, and then make a right-hand turn to elm street and then under the underpass to stemmons expressway, which was the most direct route from there and the most rapid route to the trade mart. mr. stern. excuse me--you said right-hand turn to elm. i think you mean left. mr. sorrels. a right-hand turn on houston--i am sorry--and a left-hand turn on elm. now, elm is one way going west in the direction which we would have gone, but that street is not the street that they use for parades. main street is right through the heart of the city. it is the best choice for parades. it gives an opportunity for more people--tall buildings on the side of the street--and it is almost invariably--every parade that is had is on main street. the one in , when president roosevelt was there, was the same route in reverse, so to speak. we came up on houston street from union station, turned right on main street, right on main street, through the very heart of the town. mr. stern. and went right past the school book depository then on houston street? mr. sorrels. just within block of it, because we were coming, in that instance, from the union station, which is south of the depository, to main street, right on main street, which is just block from the depository. mr. stern. i take it, then, that once you were told there was to be a motorcade, and approximately minutes was allotted to the motorcade, this route pretty well mapped itself, apart from the question whether to use the expressway or harwood street to get on to main street, is that right? mr. sorrels. yes, sir; that is right. mr. stern. why didn't you route the motorcade on main street under the triple overpass and on to stemmons freeway that way, instead of going to houston and elm? mr. sorrels. well, because you cannot get to the entrance to stemmons expressway on main street. the traffic is not routed that way. it is impractical. on the other side of the first underpass there is a section built up to prevent cars from cutting in from main street to get over to elm street there. and if a person would go from--try to go from main street over to stemmons expressway, they would have to either hurdle this built-up place there, island, you might call it, or an extension of an island---- mr. stern. do you know what this built-up place is constructed of? mr. sorrels. it is, i am sure, asphalt, or concrete--probably concrete. you would have to go down on main street, pass where you would ordinarily turn off, and then come back against traffic, which would be one way that way, and make a hairpin turn, and come back and get on there. it just is not done. mr. stern. could that reverse-s turn which you have described have been done conveniently with a car the size of the presidential limousine? mr. sorrels. no, it would not be convenient with an ordinary car, because it would be a very sharp hairpin turn, and the place that is built there is there specifically to prevent anyone from getting over on the wrong way there. mr. stern. when you laid out the motorcade route and drove over it--and i take it you drove over it several times-- mr. sorrels. yes, sir. mr. stern. did you consider or discuss with mr. lawson the possibility of any danger to the president from the buildings along the route? mr. sorrels. well---- mr. stern. did you think about any of the buildings as presenting any particular problem? mr. sorrels. all buildings are a problem, as far as we are concerned. that, insofar as i have been concerned--and i am sure that every member of the service, especially the detail--that is always of concern to us. we always consider it a hazard. during the time that we were making this survey with the police, i made the remark that if someone wanted to get the president of the united states, he could do it with a high-powered rifle and a telescopic sight from some building or some hillside, because that has always been a concern to us, about the buildings. mr. stern. do you recall any further conversation, any further remarks in that conversation? did anybody respond to that remark? only if you recall. mr. sorrels. i don't recall any particular response. probably there was confirmation of that fact, because i think that anyone that has had any experience in security measures would have the same opinion. i don't recall anyone specifically making any comment like that. mr. stern. but there was no suggestion that anything might be done to minimize that risk? mr. sorrels. nothing more than what we always do--try to scan the windows, and if we see something suspicious, take proper action. mr. stern. when you went over the parade route with the police officials, did they confirm your view that this was the proper route to use? mr. sorrels. yes, they did. mr. stern. and there was no concern expressed by them that some other route might be better for some reason? mr. sorrels. no, sir; no, sir. mr. stern. i would like you now, mr. sorrels, to tell us something of the protective research activities that took place in preparation for the president's visit to dallas, that you recall. mr. sorrels. at that time, we had no known protective research subjects that we were making periodic checks on in that area. mr. lawson informed me that he had checked with prs, and that was confirmed. however, bearing in mind the incidents that had taken place some time before with mr. stevenson, i had instructed special agent john joe howlett, to work with the special services bureau of the police department, and i also conferred by phone with the chief of police at denton, tex., because some of those individuals who were involved in the stevenson affair were going to college there. mr. stern. what was the stevenson affair, as far as you knew? mr. sorrels. that was an instance where a number of people were at a theatre, as i recall it, theatre building, when mr. stevenson came out, and they were there with placards, and one woman is alleged to have hit him over the head with a placard, and another individual spat upon mr. stevenson, and also a police officer that took him into custody. and i did not want any such instance to happen when the president of the united states was there. mr. stern. how soon had that happened before the president's visit? mr. sorrels. i don't remember. it was probably some days, maybe, before. it was quite some time before. but within recent time. and so mr. anderson, chief of police, informed me that he had an informant that was keeping in touch with the situation. i arranged with the dallas police department for lieutenant revill to accompany special agent howlett to denton, and confer with the police there, and to also get photographs of these individuals. when we were conferring with mr. felix mcknight, the managing editor of the dallas times herald, i learned that--from him--that they had photographs taken at the stevenson incident. so arrangements were made whereby special agent howlett and the members of the dallas police department, together with the informant in the case, would view those films, so that there could be pointed out to them individuals known to have been in the incident. we had duplicate pictures made, and they were furnished to the special agent assigned to the trade mart, and were shown to the police officers that were assigned out in that area. mr. stern. did anything else occur in the field of protective research? mr. sorrels. that is all i can recall at the present time. now, we had received, i think, some time before, a report from the fbi of an individual that might be considered a subject that we should check into. on october , special agent vince drain of the fbi reported a person, a member supposedly of the ku klux klan in denison, tex., who might be suspected as a person that might try to cause some trouble if and when the president came to that area. lieutenant revill got a photograph of that individual and he was checked on, and it was determined that he would not be in that area at that time. mr. stern. did the fbi report anything else to your office? mr. sorrels. on the morning of november , as i recall it, special agent hosty came to the office early in the morning with a number of handbills which bore a picture of the president of the united states, mr. kennedy, with the caption, "wanted for treason," with a number of numbered paragraphs supposedly outlining the reason. mr. stern. did your office make an investigation of that pamphlet? mr. sorrels. i had previously received the information early in the morning from the sheriff's office that such handbills had been found on the streets. we contacted the police department, lieutenant revill, and they had a number of the handbills, and they were just found on the street. we could not from the police investigation or from our inquiries, find anyone that had seen anyone actually distributing them. and we had no other leads on the handbills at that time. mr. stern. did the dallas police give you any information of this nature--i am not referring specifically to the handbills, but to the protective research area, in advance of the president's trip? mr. sorrels. nothing more than what i believe i have outlined with lieutenant revill's department there. mr. stern. was there anything else that you recall involving any person or group that might present a danger to the president? mr. sorrels. there was some individuals from grand prairie, tex., that were mentioned to us by the police department that were known to be the type that might appear with handbills or placards--not handbills, but with placards in the area where the president might appear. and it developed that they did show up with placards at the trade mart, and they were taken into custody by the police department. mr. stern. did your office also take steps to assure that there would be no interference with free speech and lawful public demonstrations? mr. sorrels. yes, we discussed with the police what action would be taken if people showed up with placards and attempted to interfere. and it was very definitely stated that if they had placards, just the mere fact that they had placards would not cause them to be picked up. but that we did not want them close enough to where the president would come or where he would be that these might be used to cause any harm to the president or the vice president or members of their families. there had recently been passed in dallas an ordinance making it unlawful for any person to interfere or attempt to interfere with or intimidate another from freely entering premises where a private or public assembly was being held. we obtained copies of that ordinance and studied them to see what action the police would be able to take in the event that any instance arose whereby this ordinance might need to be enforced. mr. stern. now, you have told us, mr. sorrels, that you had no record of any prs subject that you were checking on in your office, and that lawson advised you that he had been told of no subject in your area in his advance check before he left washington. did this surprise you, that there were no individuals who had previously been identified as potential threats to the president in the territory of the dallas office? mr. sorrels. no. we had records of some subjects that were in institutions, but they were not out where they would be available. mr. stern. had there been in the past, during your tenure in the dallas office, prs subjects who were not in institutions? mr. sorrels. oh, yes. mr. stern. but there were none at this particular time? mr. sorrels. that is right. mr. stern. when the incident involving ambassador stevenson had occurred, did you consider obtaining information on the participants and referring that information to the protective research section in washington for their files? mr. sorrels. not unless the president or the vice president would come to that area, i had no intention doing that, because there was no actual threat, nor was the president of the united states involved in name or otherwise, insofar as i knew, in connection with the stevenson affair. mr. stern. how has the cooperation been with local authorities and local officers of federal agencies in advising you of any potential danger to the president? mr. sorrels. we have received reports of phone calls and threats or something like that from time to time. i think that all of the federal offices that come into any information about a threat concerning the president of the united states have certainly in the past, to my recollection--i don't recall any specific instance--but i do know we have received such reports. mr. stern. and from the local police authorities? mr. sorrels. i can't recall any specific instance, but i am sure that in the past there have been instances where such a report has been reported to us. mr. stern. have you made known to the local authorities the kind of information in which you would be interested in this area? mr. sorrels. yes. we have participated in the training schools of the dallas police department, and the fort worth police department, the auxiliary schools conducted by the sheriff's office and the dallas police department. we have participated in schools at austin, tex., given by the department of public safety to investigative officers, to sheriffs-elect, deputy sheriffs and other sheriffs. we have participated at texas a & m college, at college station, tex., in their program of police training, where they have students that are members of various police departments, and other law enforcement organizations that attend their classes. and in our course of instruction, we have discussed with them the protective measures that are required and taken in connection with the protection of the president of the united states, members of his family, and the vice president. mr. stern. how is your liaison with the local police and local offices of federal agencies? mr. sorrels. i consider it very, very good. mr. stern. in all respects? mr. sorrels. in all respects; yes, sir. mr. stern. had you requested any local federal agency, for example fbi or internal revenue, to participate in any way in the actual protection measures for the day of the president's visit? mr. sorrels. i had offers from some of the other agencies, offering their services in case there was anything they could assist in. the usual reply to that is that we are working with the local officials, police department, sheriff's department, department of public safety, and we feel that we have sufficient manpower to take care of the program as we have in the past, and we have always suggested, in not only this instance but in other instances, that if any member of their department should hear of anything, or see anything unusual, that they felt we should know about, to please get in touch with us immediately, along those lines. mr. stern. you felt, then, that the local police forces would supply all the outside assistance you needed for this visit? mr. sorrels. yes, sir; the dallas police department, in my opinion, has some very good leaders, career men who have been there for many years, and due to the fact i have been located in dallas for many, many years i know these people personally, and i have never yet called upon the dallas police department, the sheriff's office, or the department of public safety, for any assistance that we have not gotten and gotten cheerfully and willingly. for example, the time that mr. kennedy came there to the hospital to see mr. rayburn, is a case where i could tell nobody until just a matter of or hours before the president would get there, that he was coming, because the afternoon before, when i heard that he was coming, it was supposed to have been off the record, and there was not supposed to be any publicity about it. the next morning i got a call and said it would be announced at o'clock in the morning. well, immediately after that i called chief curry and he met me at the hospital with some of his key men, and the arrangements were set up in a matter of minutes, you might say, arrangements for the street to be blocked by the hospital, for sufficient detectives and men to be around the area, in various places in the hospital, and arrangements were made to have the police cars to accompany us from the airport down there. i consider that our relationship with the local enforcement agencies, not only in the dallas area, but throughout texas, is as good as it can be any place in the country. mr. stern. on the occasion of president kennedy's visit, they supplied all the manpower you felt was necessary? mr. sorrels. yes, sir. mr. stern. were all the police that had various functions along the motorcade route full-time policemen, mr. sorrels? mr. sorrels. there may have been, and probably was, some auxiliary police which may have been along the route that the parade traveled on. i am not sure about that. they do have reserves that they call in. but those reserves, they are not armed--they are in uniform, but they are not armed. and my records do not show that there were auxiliary police there. but i do know that they use them on occasion. mr. stern. mr. smith, if you have any questions on this aspect of our interview, please feel free to ask them, because i am going to turn now to the actual events of the day. i believe that the other advance preparations are covered adequately for our purposes in mr. sorrel's memorandum, which i am about to introduce. mr. smith. i have no questions. mr. stern. mr. sorrels, i am going to mark this copy of your memorandum exhibit , deposition of f. v. sorrels, may , . would you initial each page, please? (brief recess.) mr. stern. mr. sorrels, i would like to turn now to the morning of november and get from you an account of what you observed as a passenger in the motorcade and thereafter. in what car were you riding in the motorcade? mr. sorrels. i was riding in what we call the lead car, which is the one immediately in front of the president's car. mr. stern. what was your function in the lead car? mr. sorrels. to be there with the special agent who had made the survey, and with the chief of police, and to observe the people and buildings as we drove along in the motorcade. mr. stern. one of your responsibilities was to observe the buildings and the windows of the buildings? mr. sorrels. yes, sir. mr. stern. looking for what? mr. sorrels. we always do that. mr. stern. what would you be looking for? mr. sorrels. anything that to us might mean danger. for example, if someone had an object that appeared to be a gun, or something like that--that, of course, would attract our attention. or if someone appeared to have something they were fixing to throw or toss, we definitely would take cognizance of that immediately. mr. stern. do you recall remarking on anything you observed in the windows as you drove along main street? mr. sorrels. yes, i do; there was a tremendous crowd on main street. the street was full of people. i made the remark "my god, look at the people. they are even hanging out the windows." because i had observed many people in the windows of the buildings as we were coming along. mr. stern. now, as you made the right turn from main street onto houston street, did you observe anything about the windows of any building in your view? mr. sorrels. yes, i did. of course the court house is on the right-hand side, and the windows there appeared to be closed. mr. stern. to the right-hand side of houston street? mr. sorrels. of houston street; yes, sir. the book depository, as we turned to the right on houston street, of course, was right directly in front of us, and just to the left side of the street. i saw that building, saw that there were some windows open, and that there were some people looking from the windows. i remember distinctly there were a couple of colored men that were in windows almost not quite to the center of the building, probably two floors down from the top. there may have been one or two other persons that i may have seen there. i don't recall any specific instance. but i did not see any activity--no one moving around or anything like that. mr. stern. do you think you had an opportunity to view all the windows of the building? mr. sorrels. i did, yes; because it was right in front. mr. stern. do you recall seeing anything on the side of the building to your right, any of the windows on that side of the building--the far right side of the building? mr. sorrels. yes. there was at least one or two windows that were open in that section over there. i do not recall seeing anyone in any of those windows. i do not, of course, remember seeing any object or anything like that in the windows such as a rifle or anything pointing out the windows. there was no activity, no one moving around that i saw at all. mr. stern. but you believe you could observe all of the windows on the side of the building facing you? mr. sorrels. yes. in other words, it is just right down at the end of the street. mr. stern. now, the car you were riding in was a closed car, was it not? mr. sorrels. yes, sir; it was a ford sedan. mr. stern. and you were in the rear seat? mr. sorrels. right rear. mr. stern. did the roof of the car obscure your view at all? mr. sorrels. oh, yes. mr. stern. but you were still able to observe the whole building? mr. sorrels. yes. of course i was sitting close to--as far over to the right as i could get, and i could look out the window. i could not, of course, look up and see any building straight up, or over to my left i would not have been able to see anything that was any higher than the view of the window on the left. mr. stern. you didn't have your head actually out of the window? mr. sorrels. no, sir; i did not. but the glass was down in the window. mr. stern. as you turned into houston street, mr. sorrels, can you estimate how far in front of the president's car the lead car was? mr. sorrels. oh, probably about feet--fairly close. mr. stern. as you approached the book depository building along houston street, did your ability to see all of the building diminish because of the angle of your vision and the roof of the car coming in the way? mr. sorrels. yes, it would have. the closer you got to it, looking out from the front part of the car, naturally your vision would diminish as you approach. but we turned to the left on main street, and at that time just glancing by, i could see the side of the building from the window where i was sitting in the car. mr. stern. i believe you mean left onto elm street. mr. sorrels. elm street--i am sorry. mr. stern. so that when you turned from houston left onto elm, you again had a look at the building? mr. sorrels. yes, sir; you see, as you make the turn--of course, as we pulled on down elm street, after having made the turn, it is actually more than a right angle turn. it bends even more to the left. and you can, of course, glance up like that as you go by. but as you go on by the building, the building is getting away from you, and unless you would turn clear on around and look out to the right, you would not be able to see the building after you got a little distance down elm street there. mr. stern. did you turn to your right and look at the building again as your car negotiated this turn onto elm street? mr. sorrels. as the car was making the turn, yes, i was looking at the crowd, and just glancing up at the building as we made the turn. mr. stern. do you believe that you saw all of the windows on the building at that time? mr. sorrels. as we were making the turn, yes, i would say that i saw all the windows in the building--just looked at the windows as we made the turn. but then i was looking at the people along the side of elm street, along each side. mr. stern. can you estimate, going back to the first turn into houston street, how long an opportunity you had to observe the building, in time? mr. sorrels. on houston street? mr. stern. yes. as you turned right off main onto houston street, the building first came into view. mr. sorrels. that is right. mr. stern. how long did you see the building before the roof obscured your view? mr. sorrels. of course i wasn't looking at it all the time. as we came to the right on houston street, of course, the building loomed up in front, and i just looked at it, and looking at the people along the side, and as we were making the turn i was just glancing like that, and saw the building. i saw nothing unusual or any activity at that time. and then after making the turn, i did not look at the building any more, or in that direction, until after the first shot. mr. stern. are you saying that you only glanced at the building then, because you were looking at other things? mr. sorrels. yes. i looked at the building. i didn't study it intently and look at that and nothing else around there. i looked at the building, didn't see any activity, and looked at the people as we had been doing during the entire motorcade route. mr. stern. would this have been a matter of several seconds or longer than that, or can you estimate? mr. sorrels. i think it would be a matter of seconds, yes. mr. stern. it is rather a large building, with a number of windows along that side, is it not? mr. sorrels. yes; it is a good-sized building. i believe it is seven stories high. mr. stern. and you think you had enough time, though, to see all the windows, or is it a general impression. mr. sorrels. just a general impression. in other words, i did not specifically study any specific window or anything like that. it is just like you glance out and see the building there, you would see some open windows, and maybe some people in them--that is all. there wasn't any activity or anything like that that i saw. mr. stern. now, as you turned left from houston onto elm and looked again at the building, did you have as long a look this time as you had before? mr. sorrels. no; because he was making a left-hand turn, and, of course, getting in front of the building, i just glanced out--just as we made the turn, just in a general way, you are looking at the crowd and the building, just a glance at it at that time. mr. stern. and at this point you are traveling directly in front of the building? mr. sorrels. yes, sir. mr. stern. i imagine it would have been difficult to look up and see the whole building. mr. sorrels. no; i don't mean to say that after we made the turn i looked up and saw the whole building. but just as we made the turn i looked towards the building and saw people in front, and just glanced up--i would not say that i saw the entire building at all at that time. mr. stern. and it is your testimony that you saw nothing unusual, that you observed no one there with a weapon? mr. sorrels. no, sir. mr. stern. or any other implement? mr. sorrels. no, sir. mr. stern. that several windows were open on the side of the building at different places? mr. sorrels. yes, sir. mr. stern. and that the only people you observed were at one particular location? mr. sorrels. i recall distinctly about two floors down seeing two colored men there at the windows. i do not recall seeing--specifically seeing anyone else. there may have been some one other person over there. but i do not recall specifically seeing anyone on the right-hand side of the building, where the window was open. i do not recall that. mr. stern. and the location of the two negro men that you observed was in what part of the building? mr. sorrels. i would say that it was about, oh, maybe a third of the distance from the right to the left, maybe not quite that far. mr. stern. and about two stories down? mr. sorrels. from the top; yes, sir. mr. stern. and when did you observe these negro men, when you first turned into houston, or when you turned from houston onto elm? mr. sorrels. i observed them first, when i first looked at the building i saw them, and i don't recall that i actually saw them again after that. when we were making the turn i glanced, and as you say, i would not have been able to see, i don't think all the way to the top of the building, unless i put my head almost out the window. but i saw people out in front, and i would not say that i saw the people as i was making the turn or subsequent to that time. mr. stern. when you looked at the crowd along houston and elm, did you notice anything unusual? mr. sorrels. no, sir; i did not. mr. stern. you have turned now onto elm, mr. sorrels. mr. sorrels. yes, sir. mr. stern. why don't you tell us now in your own words and in as much detail as you remember exactly what you recall transpired next. mr. sorrels. the crowd had begun to thin out after we made the turn on elm street there. as a matter of explanation, elm street goes at a downgrade--in other words, as i said a moment ago, it makes more than a left-hand--oblique left-hand turn. it curves back--i mean it is more of a sharp angle than a right angle. and then it swings down a little curve to go into the underpass. there is a sidewalk and terrace that goes up to the right, increasing in height as you approach the underpass from the corner at elm and houston streets. we were running late, because the president arrived at love field late. mr. lawson was particularly concerned, as we all are, in keeping the schedule. i looked back to see how close the president's car was in making the turn, because we had begun to pick up speed after we made the left-hand turn. then i looked back to the right. mr. stern. how close was the president's car? mr. sorrels. at that time we were probably, oh, i would say, several car lengths ahead of it, because we had begun to pick up speed. mr. stern. you think somewhat further than you estimated before? mr. sorrels. as we came around houston, yes, sir; came around on houston, yes, because we had begun to pick up speed there. and i remember mr. lawson turned around and said, "i wish he would come on, because we are late now," or words to that effect. and i expressed to him, i said, "oh, we are not going to be very late." and i looked at my watch, and it was just about : . and i said, "we are not going to be over minutes late," and the chief of police, i believe, spoke up and said, "we are about minutes away now." and so they called on the radio to the trade mart that we were minutes away. and it seemed like almost instantly after that, the first shot was heard. mr. stern. now, did you recognize it at the time as a shot? mr. sorrels. i felt it was, because it was too sharp for a backfire of an automobile. and, to me, it appeared a little bit too loud for a firecracker. i just said, "what's that?" and turned around to look up on this terrace part there, because the sound sounded like it came from the back and up in that direction. at that time, i did not look back up to the building, because it was way back in the back. within about seconds, there were two more similar reports. and i said, let's get out of here and looked back, all the way back, then, to where the president's car was, and i saw some confusion, movement there, and the car just seemed to lurch forward. and, in the meantime, a motorcycle officer had run up on the right-hand side and the chief yelled to him, "anybody hurt?" he said, "yes." he said, "lead us to the hospital." and the chief took his microphone and told them to alert the hospital, and said, surround the building. he didn't say what building. he just said, "surround the building." and by that time we had gotten almost in under the underpass, and the president's car had come up and was almost abreast of us. when i saw them get so close, i said, "let's get out quick," or "get going fast," or something to that effect. in other words, i didn't want them to pass us, because i knew we were supposed to be in front. and that is when they floor-boarded the accelerator on the police car and we got out in front. and someone yelled loudly to go to the nearest hospital. mr. stern. let's stop there and go back, and then we will pick up again. you testified that you heard three reports? mr. sorrels. yes, sir. mr. stern. are you pretty certain about that? mr. sorrels. positive. mr. stern. and no more and no fewer? mr. sorrels. no, sir. mr. stern. can you you tell us anything about the spacing of these reports? mr. sorrels. yes. there was to me about twice as much time between the first and second shots as there was between the second and third shots. mr. stern. can you estimate the overall time from the first shot to the third shot? mr. sorrels. yes. i have called it out to myself, i have timed it, and i would say it was very, very close to seconds. mr. stern. it sounds like you can still hear the shots. mr. sorrels. i will hear them forever--it is something i cannot wipe from my mind ever. mr. stern. and you had little doubt that this was gunfire at the time? mr. sorrels. after--as i said before, on the first shot, it was too sharp to be a backfire of an automobile. it just didn't sound like that at all. and then, of course, the other two coming as quickly as they did, and the confusion, there was no question, because i said, "get out of here," meaning to move out, because certainly if there is anything going on like that, we don't want to even be stationary or near stationary--it is to get out of the vicinity as quickly as we can from the source of danger. i thought in my mind--my thought was that i should maybe get out to try to help apprehend who it was and so forth. there was no chance for that, because we were moving too fast. mr. stern. now, as to the apparent source of these reports, did you feel that all three reports came from the same direction? mr. sorrels. yes. definitely so. mr. stern. and that direction, as nearly as you can place it, was what? mr. sorrels. to the right and back. that is about the only way i can express it. and, as i said, the noise from the shots sounded like they may have come back up on the terrace there. and that is the reason i was looking around like that when the first shot. and i continued to look out until the other two shots. and then i turned on around and looked back to where the president's car was, and that is when i saw some movement there, and the car just seemed to leap forward. mr. stern. when you looked at the terrace to the right of elm street, did you observe any unusual movement? mr. sorrels. no; i didn't see anything unusual at that time. mr stern. were you looking at that terrace when either the second or third shot was fired? mr. sorrels. yes; i was. and i saw just some movement of some people, but no firearms or anything like that, because we began to move out rather rapidly. and we were quite a ways down the street at that time. mr. stern. how do you mean movement of people? mr. sorrels. it seems i recall someone turned around and was going in the other direction, like moving away from the street. and that is all i can recall. mr. stern. but you didn't observe anything that led you to feel that the shots might have been fired from that terrace there? mr. sorrels. no, sir. mr. stern. it sounded to you at first as though it came from there? mr. sorrels. that is the way it sounded--back into the rear and to the right, back up in that direction. and in the direction, of course, of the building. but the reports seemed to be so loud, that it sounded like to me--in other words, that was my first thought, somebody up on the terrace, and that is the reason i looked there. as we were approaching the overpass there, mr. lawson remarked that there was an officer on the overpass there. i saw a police officer standing there, with two or three other persons over to his right. mr. stern. where is this? mr. sorrels. on the overpass, on elm street, after we leave the corner of elm and houston. there was no activity there. they were just standing there. and i remarked, as i recall. "a policeman is there," or words to that effect, because mr. lawson had been checking, as well as myself, all of the overpasses, to see that the officer was there, because that is one of the specific things that was checked all the way through. mr. stern. and you observed nothing unusual on the overpass? mr. sorrels. no, sir. mr. stern. were the people on the overpass in a fairly tight group, or spread out over the overpass? mr. sorrels. as i recall it, the police officer was about the center of the overpass on elm street, and then to his right--i mean to my right which would have been his left, there seemed to be, as i recall it, about three other persons up there that appeared to be workmen or dressed like that, and they were to his right. they were not right close together, but standing within walking distance. mr. stern. as far as you can recall, were all the people you saw on the overpass within the sight of the policeman on the overpass? mr. sorrels. oh, yes; they were in the same vicinity. mr. stern. do you have any reason to believe that any of these shots might have come from the overpass? mr. sorrels. none whatsoever; no, sir. mr. stern. and are you certain in your own mind that they did not come from the overpass? mr. sorrels. positive. mr. stern. do you have any reason to believe that the shots could not have come from the book depository building? mr. sorrels. no, sir. mr. stern. would shots from the book depository building have been consistent with your hearing of the shots? mr. sorrels. yes; they would have. mr. stern. what happened next, mr. sorrels? mr. sorrels. we proceeded to parkland hospital just as fast as we could. mr. stern. did you go into the hospital? mr. sorrels. no; i did not go into the hospital. of course the lead car was in front. we went around to the emergency entrance. i jumped out of the car, and i expected to see stretchers there, out waiting, but they were not. and i ran to the entrance door there, and at that time they began to bring stretchers out, and i said, "hurry up and get those stretchers out," and someone else, probably one of the police officers, also said to hurry up and get the stretchers out. there was a lot of confusion around at that time. and they did get the stretchers out. and then mr. johnson--they brought him into the hospital, he rushed into the hospital. and they took mr. connally in, loaded him first, and then the president, and just as quick as they got in there, i immediately went into a police car that was leaving and asked them to take me to the building as fast as they could, and when i said the building i meant the one on the corner there, which was the book depository. mr. stern. why did you designate the book depository? mr. sorrels. because i wanted to get there and get something going in establishing who the people were that were in that vicinity. and upon arrival at the book store, we pulled up on the side, and i went in the back door. mr. stern. just a minute. had you heard any mention of the book depository on police broadcasts as you drove to the hospital? mr. sorrels. no; i never heard anything. mr. stern. and, at this point, you were not certain that the shots came from the book depository? mr. sorrels. no; i didn't know at that time. mr. stern. you just wanted to get to that general area? mr. sorrels. yes, sir; because i knew that there would be witnesses around there, there would have to be somebody in that vicinity. and upon arrival at the book depository, i went in the back door. there were people moving around. i asked, "where is the manager here?" mr. stern. just a minute. how much time do you think elapsed from the time the shots were fired until the time you returned to the book depository? mr. sorrels. i don't believe it could have been over about minutes, because we went to the hospital just as fast as we possibly could, and i wasn't there very long. and we came back as fast as we could. of course we didn't get back as fast as we went out there, because traffic was moving. the other way it was just cleared out to the trade mart. we had clear sailing from the time that the shots were fired until we got to the trade mart, because that was the route that we were going to go anyway. and that was cleared out. but coming back, of course, there was traffic. we did come back under lights and siren, as fast as we could. but there was traffic that slowed us up some. mr. stern. so you estimate not more than minutes? mr. sorrels. i don't believe it could have been more than or minutes at the very most. mr. stern. then you arrived at the book depository building, and did you see any police officers outside the building? mr. sorrels. yes; there were officers. i recall seeing officers. i could not say any specific one. now, as i came into the back of the building, there was a colored man standing on the rear platform, a loading platform. and he was just standing there looking off into the distance. i don't think he knew what happened. and i said to him, "did you see anyone run out the back?" he said, "no, sir." did you see anyone leave the back way? no, sir. mr. stern. did you get his name? mr. sorrels. no, sir; i did not. i did not stop to do that, because i figured he was an employee of the building. i went on the inside of the building and asked someone for the manager and they pointed to mr. truly. i identified myself to mr. truly. mr. stern. just a minute. did you establish how long that man had been on the loading platform? mr. sorrels. no, sir; i did not. mr. stern. there was no policeman stationed at the loading platform when you came up? mr. sorrels. i did not see one; no, sir. mr. stern. and you were able to enter the building without identifying yourself? mr. sorrels. yes, sir. mr. stern. then you got inside the building and what did you do? mr. sorrels. i asked for the manager, and i was directed to mr. truly. he was standing there. i went up and identified myself to him. i said, "i want to get a stenographer, and we would like to have you put down the names and addresses of every employee of the building, in the building." and i then walked on out the front door and asked, "did anyone here see anything?" and someone pointed to mr. brennan. mr. stern. what was your purpose in asking for a list of the employees of the building? mr. sorrels. because i knew that they would have to be interviewed. i was trying to establish at that time without any delay, who all was in that building or was employed there, because i knew they would have to be talked to later. in other words, i was looking for someone that saw something. mr. stern. you were looking for potential witnesses? mr. sorrels. yes, sir. mr. stern. and at that time you had no basis for suspecting any employee might be involved one way or the other? mr. sorrels. no, sir; and i did not know at that time that the shots came from the building. when i was--when mr. brennan was pointed out to me, i went up and told him who i was and asked him if he saw anything. and he told me what he had seen. and, at that time, that is the first time that i knew definitely that any shots had come from the building. mr. stern. now, what precisely did mr. brennan tell you? mr. sorrels. mr. brennan said that he was standing across the street, watching the parade, and that he, of course, was looking in the direction where the president was, and he heard a sound which he thought at first was a backfire of an automobile. and that shortly afterwards there was another sound, and that he thought that somebody might be throwing firecrackers out of the building. and he glanced up to the building, and that he saw a man at the window on the right-hand side, the second floor from the top. and he said, "i could see the man taking deliberate aim and saw him fire the third shot," and said then he just pulled the rifle back in and moved back from the window, just as unconcerned as could be. mr. stern. how did you happen to talk to mr. brennan? mr. sorrels. i asked--i don't know who, someone there--"is there anyone here that saw anything?" and someone said, "that man over there." he was out in front of the building and i went right to him. mr. stern. did mr. brennan tell you anything else? mr. sorrels. i asked him whether or not he thought he could identify the person that he saw, and he, of course, gave me a description of him, said that he appeared to be a slender man, he had on what appeared to be a light jacket or shirt or something to that effect, and that he thought he could identify him--said he was slender build. because i was definitely interested in someone that had seen something that could give us some definite information. and i also asked if he had seen anybody else, and he pointed to a young colored boy there, by the name of euins. and i got him and mr. brennan, and i took them over to the sheriff's office where we could get statements from them. mr. stern. what was the name of that young man? mr. sorrels. euins, i believe it is, or pretty close to that. mr. stern. did you interview mr. euins? mr. sorrels. yes, sir; i did. and he also said that he had heard the noise there, and that he had looked up and saw the man at the window with the rifle, and i asked him if he could identify the person, and he said, no, he couldn't, he said he couldn't tell whether he was colored or white. mr. stern. do you remember anything unusual about the way mr. brennan was dressed? mr. sorrels. he was dressed as a workman, or a laborer, and he had on a hard hat. mr. stern. construction hat? mr. sorrels. yes, sir. mr. stern. did mr. brennan tell you anything else about anything else he had observed at that time? mr. sorrels. i can't recall any specific thing. mr. stern. did he mention seeing any other person or persons in the windows of the book depository building? mr. sorrels. i don't recall whether he did or did not. mr. stern. did he say anything about observing anyone leave the book depository building hurriedly after the shooting? mr. sorrels. no, sir. mr. stern. did he point out to you precisely the window from which he said he saw the shot fired, the window in which he saw the sniper? mr. sorrels. yes, sir. mr. stern. where was that window in relation to the windows at which you saw several negro men as you drove on houston street? mr. sorrels. it was one floor above and a little bit to the right, as i recall it. mr. stern. can you give us these directions in terms of compass points? mr. sorrels. yes. that would be on the east side of the building. mr. stern. so the window that mr. brennan pointed out to you was on the extreme east side? mr. sorrels. yes, sir. mr. stern. and the window or windows at which you had observed several negro men was more to the west? mr. sorrels. a little bit more to the west--not very much--but to the west, on the floor below. mr. stern. are you certain in your mind about the floor below? mr. sorrels. yes, i am. mr. stern. is there any particular reason for that? you said before that you essentially glanced at the building, and didn't have very long to observe it, and you saw these men at the window. what makes you certain about placing the men on any particular floor? mr. sorrels. well, because i remember that they were not near the top--i can just remember that--it seemed to me like two floors down from the top, as i recall having seen them. and, of course, when i got back to the building down there, there were windows open on the floor below at the place where i recall having seen the colored men. mr. stern. so it was the open window afterwards that helped you recall? mr. sorrels. that is right. mr. stern. and are you certain that those were the same open windows? mr. sorrels. yes, i think they were. i don't have any reason to think otherwise. mr. stern. then you accompanied brennan and euins where? mr. sorrels. to the sheriff's office, which was right across the street from the book depository. mr. stern. did you have any further conversation with them on the way over there? mr. sorrels. oh, yes; we discussed--i was talking to him on the way over there about what they saw and observed, and told them we would like to come in there where we could get their statements down in writing. mr. stern. did they tell you anything that you have not already told us? mr. sorrels. not that i recall. the little colored boy mentioned he was there with another colored boy that ran off when this thing happened--at the first shot this boy ran off. he said he stayed there, but the other boy ran off. i didn't make any effort to get in touch with him, because he apparently saw nothing. mr. stern. then you took them into the sheriff's office? mr. sorrels. yes, sir. mr. stern. what was going on in the sheriff's office? mr. sorrels. at that time one of the deputy sheriffs was in the interrogation room taking a statement from some witness there. and i did not want to just stay there and wait too long, so i asked him would he also write up the statements on it--mr. brennan and the colored boy. and i then started out in the hall of the sheriff's office there with the idea of going back to see if i could locate other witnesses, when chief deputy sheriff mr. allan sweatt told me there was another witness across the hallway, near mr. sweatt's office--he is the polygraph operator there, and his office is not in the same area as the sheriff's office but across the hall--that there was an fbi agent taking a statement over there from a person. so i accompanied him over there and hadn't been in there but just a few minutes until mr. sweatt came and called me out and says "forrest, there are some people here i think you ought to talk to." mr. stern. whose statement was being taken by the fbi? mr. sorrels. i don't recall. and, at that time---- mr. stern. do you recall what their statement was--what their testimony was? mr. sorrels. no, i don't, because i wasn't in there but just a very short time. and this fbi agent was questioning about what they had seen and so forth. i don't recall--it was being taken down at the time. so i went out, and they had mr. and mrs. arnold there. and mr. arnold, a young man, and his wife, very young, said that they were standing on the side of the street on houston street, there by the courthouse building, and that they--this is prior to the time of the arrival of the president there, some to minutes beforehand, he said. mr. stern. this is the east side? mr. sorrels. that would be the east side of houston street. mr. stern. are you certain about the name of this couple? i believe you said arnold. mr. sorrels. well---- mr. stern. could that have been his first name? mr. sorrels. yes, that could have been his first name. mr. stern. can you recall his second name? mr. sorrels. i would know it if i heard it. mr. stern. could it have been roland? mr. sorrels. yes, roland is right. mr. stern. what did they tell you? mr. sorrels. he said that they were standing there waiting for the president to come by, and they were talking about security. and he said that right after that, that he looked up at this building over there, which is the book depository, and that there were a couple of windows open towards the west side, and that he saw a man standing in there with what appeared to be a rifle with a telescopic sight. mr. stern. towards the west side? mr. sorrels. yes--two windows towards the west side. and that he remarked to his wife, "i guess that is a secret service man." and i asked her if she saw it, and she said, no, that she had left her glasses home, and she is nearsighted, and she could not see him. and, of course, i asked him the description of the man. i asked him "how could you determine--what made you think it had a telescopic sight on it?" he said, "well, it seemed like it was wider on the light background." i said, "how was he holding it?" he said, port arms--he was standing several feet back away from the window. and i asked him, "could you identify that man?" he said, "no, i could not." mr. stern. did mrs. roland confirm that he had discussed this with her? mr. sorrels. she confirmed the conversation, but she said she could not see anything, because she didn't have her glasses. mr. stern. did mr. roland tell you he had seen anyone else in the windows of the book depository building? mr. sorrels. i don't recall that he did. i don't recall that at all. he may have, but i don't recall that. mr. stern. did he mention anyone on the sixth floor, and particularly on the extreme east side of the sixth floor? mr. sorrels. no, i don't recall that he mentioned anyone there. mr. stern. what was your impression of what he told you? mr. sorrels. well, of course, the thing that hit me first thing is why--he was right there by the sheriff's office, if he had just gone in there and said, look, i saw a man with a rifle over there. i said, "why didn't you say something to somebody about it?" he said, "i just thought he was a secret service man." and at that time he appeared to be, as far as i was concerned, truthful about the matter. mr. stern. you didn't have any reason to doubt him? mr. sorrels. no. mr. stern. and would the same be true of what mr. brennan told you, and euins? mr. sorrels. yes, sir. mr. stern. did you look towards the window that roland had pointed out from the spot at which he said he was standing, to see whether it was possible to observe from there someone standing several feet back from the window? did you have occasion to check that? mr. sorrels. well, no, not specifically. later on i heard that he had--i believe in his statement that he wrote up down there at the sheriff's office, something about feet back. and i thought to myself, well, i don't think you could see anybody that far back. mr. stern. but he didn't tell you that? mr. sorrels. no, he just said he was standing back of the window there, just kind of looking around there. he said after he saw him there, he didn't pay any more attention, because he just thought it was a secret service man. mr. stern. what happened next? mr. sorrels. there was another witness there that i started talking to--i don't recall the name now, because i told him to go in--somebody that saw a truck down there--this is before the parade ever got there--that apparently had stalled down there on elm street. and i later checked on that, and found out that the car had gone dead, apparently belonged to some construction company, and that a police officer had come down there, and they had gone to the construction company and gotten somebody to come down and get the car out of the way. apparently it was just a car stalled down there. but this lady said she thought she saw somebody that looked like they had a guncase. but then i didn't pursue that any further--because then i had gotten the information that the rifle had been found in the building and shells and so forth. at that time mr. harry mccormack, who is a reporter for the dallas morning news, and whom i have known for many years, came to me and says, "forrest, i have something over here you ought to know about." i said, "what have you got here?" he said, "i have a man over here that got pictures of this whole thing." i said, "let's go see him." so we went on to a building at the corner of elm and houston, on the east side of houston, and across the street from the court house building there, and up to the office of a mr. zapruder, they have a dress manufacturing place there in that building. and he was there with another man connected with the business there, and apparently some magazine representatives there. and mr. zapruder was real shook up. he said that he didn't know how in the world he had taken these pictures, that he was down there and was taking the thing there, and he says, "my god, i saw the whole thing. i saw the man's brains come out of his head." and so i asked mr. zapruder would it be possible for us to get a copy of those films. he said, yes. so then accompanied by mr. zapruder, and this other gentleman in the business there with him, whose name i don't recall at the moment, and mr. mccormack, we went then to the dallas morning news building, which is about three blocks from mr. zapruder's building, three or four blocks from there, with the idea of getting those films developed right away. there was no one there that would tackle the job. we then went to the television section, wfaa, of the dallas morning news, to see if we could get them to handle it there, and they said, no, they would not attempt to do that, but they did assist us by calling eastman kodak co., and they said if we came out there right away, that they would get right on it. we got a police car, and went right on out to the eastman kodak co., and while there i met another gentleman who had seen some still pictures, and i arranged with him for us to get copies of those. mr. stern. what was his name--do you recall? mr. sorrels. he is a salesman for the ford co. on west commerce street--mr. willis. and so he said, yes, that he would be glad to furnish me with a copy of the pictures. at that time, i made a phone call to my office, because i had not been in contact with them since we had departed from love field. i was informed that an fbi agent had called the office and said that captain fritz of the homicide bureau had been trying to get in touch with me, that he had a suspect in custody. mr. stern. about what time was that? mr. sorrels. that would be fairly close to o'clock, i imagine. mr. stern. about an hour after you had returned---- mr. sorrels. yes. i would say that it was at least that long--maybe a little bit longer. so when i got that information, i told mr. zapruder that i would contact him later and get the pictures, because i wanted to get right down to captain fritz' office. so i left then with the same police car and had them take me to captain fritz' office. and upon arrival there, there was many officers around there, there was already cameras out in the hall, tripods, and so forth, and all of the city hall down there. and there was a number of officers in the detective bureau office there, and captain fritz' office, which is an office within the large office, was closed, and the blinds were drawn in his office there. i did not knock on the door or anything, because i did not want to interfere with him if he was talking to someone. so i just waited there until captain fritz opened the door, and he had a man who i later found out to be oswald in custody at the time. and i told captain fritz, i said, "captain, i would like to talk to this man when i have an opportunity." he said, "you can talk to him right now." and he just took him on back around to the side of captain fritz' office, and there was a number of other officers there, might have been some fbi agents, too, there, because there were numbers of fbi agents around in that vicinity almost all the time from that time on. and some of the detectives there. and i started talking to oswald, started asking him some questions, and he was arrogant and a belligerent attitude about him. and he said to me, "i don't know who you fellows are, a bunch of cops." and i said, "well, i will tell you who i am. my name is sorrels and i am with the united states secret service, and here is my commission book." i held it out in front of him and he said, "i don't want to look at it." and he held his head up and wouldn't look at it at all. and he said, "what am i going to be charged with? why am i being held here? isn't someone supposed to tell me what my rights are?" i said, "yes, i will tell you what your rights are. your rights are the same as that of any american citizen. you do not have to make a statement unless you want to. you have the right to get an attorney." aren't you supposed to get me an attorney? no, i am not supposed to get you an attorney. aren't you supposed to get me an attorney? i said, "no, i am not supposed to get you an attorney, because if i got you an attorney, they would say i was probably getting a rakeoff on the fee," or words to that effect, and kind of smiled and tried to break the ice a little bit there. i said, "you can have the telephone book and you can call anybody you want to." i said, "i just want to ask you some questions. i am in on this investigation. i just want to ask you some questions." mr. stern. was there anything further said about an attorney? mr. sorrels. not that i recall at that time. i don't recall anything further said about an attorney. i asked him where he worked. he told me worked at this book depository. and as i recall it, i asked him what his address was, and where he was living, and he explained to me that he was living apart from his wife, and that she was living over in irving, tex. i asked him, as i recall it, what his duties were at this book depository, and he said filling orders. i asked him if he had occasion to be on more than one floor, and he said, yes. i asked him if he had occasion to be on the sixth floor of the building. he said, yes, because they fill orders from all the floors. but he said most of his activity was down on the first floor. and i think i asked him whether or not he had ever been in a foreign country, and he said that he had traveled in europe, but more time had been spent in the soviet union, as i recall it. and then he just said "i don't care to answer any more questions." and so the conversation was terminated. mr. stern. did he give you his address? mr. sorrels. as i recall it, he did give me an address. i don't remember what it was offhand. mr. stern. then were you finished with your questions, or did he refuse to answer any more? mr. sorrels. he just said, "i don't care to answer any more questions." mr. stern. you wanted to ask him other questions? mr. sorrels. oh, yes. mr. stern. and what happened then? mr. sorrels. he was taken by the officers, as i recall it, and was taken out of that area and i suppose put back in jail. mr. stern. did you then talk to captain fritz? mr. sorrels. yes. as i recall it, i asked captain fritz whether or not he had gotten anything out of him or not, and captain fritz said that he hadn't been able--that he had not made any admissions or anything like that at that time, and that he was going to talk to him again. that is all i recall that transpired at that time. of course i contacted the chief's office, when i got that information as to who he was, and gave that information to them. mr. stern. this is chief rowley? mr. sorrels. i think i talked to deputy chief paterni. mr. stern. of the secret service here in washington? mr. sorrels. yes, sir. mr. stern. did anything else transpire between that time and the friday night showup? mr. sorrels. i did not talk to oswald again, and i was around there. when i contacted washington, i was informed that inspector kelley was being directed to be there, and he would be there later on that evening, that they had caught him out on the road, and he would come there to help out. i also got information to captain fritz that i had this witness, brennan, that i had talked to, and that i would like very much for him to get a chance to see oswald in a lineup. and captain fritz said that would be fine. so i instructed special agent patterson, i believe it was, after i had located brennan--had quite a difficult time to locate him, because he wasn't at home. and they finally prevailed upon his wife to try to help me locate him, and she, as i recall it, said that she would see if she could locate him by phone. i called her, i believe, the second time and finally got a phone number and called him and told him we would like for him to come down and arrange for him to meet one of our agents to pick him up at the place there. and when they came down there with him, i got ahold of captain fritz and told him that the witness was there, mr. brennan. he said, "i wish he would have been here a little sooner, we just got through with a lineup. but we will get another fixed up." so i took mr. brennan, and we went to the assembly room, which is also where they have the lineup, and mr. brennan, upon arrival at the police station, said, "i don't know if i can do you any good or not, because i have seen the man that they have under arrest on television," and he said, "i just don't know whether i can identify him positively or not" because he said that the man on television was a bit disheveled and his shirt was open or something like that, and he said "the man i saw was not in that condition." so when we got to the assembly room, mr. brennan said he would like to get quite a ways back, because he would like to get as close to the distance away from where he saw this man at the time that the shooting took place as he could. and i said, "well, we will get you clear on to the back and then we can move up forward." they did bring oswald in in a lineup. he looked very carefully, and then we moved him up closer and so forth, and he said, "i cannot positively say." i said, "well, is there anyone there that looks like him?" he said, "well, that second man from the left," who was oswald--"he looks like him." then he repeated that the man he saw was not disheveled. now, mind you, oswald had a slight wound over here, and he had a black eye, a bruised eye. mr. stern. when you say "over here"---- mr. sorrels. oh, on the left side. he had a mark on his forehead, and his left eye was a bit puffed. mr. stern. how many other people were in the lineup? mr. sorrels. as i recall it, there were five. in other words, all told there was five or six--i don't remember. i believe there were five. mr. stern. were the others reasonably similar to oswald in height and physical appearance, and color? mr. sorrels. yes. mr. stern. dress? mr. sorrels. i noted that to me i thought it was a very fair lineup, because they didn't have anyone that was a lot taller than he was, or anyone a lot shorter. they didn't have any big fat ones or anything like that. in other words, to me it was a good lineup. mr. stern. at that time, did mr. brennan say anything else to you that you have not told us, or to anyone else? mr. sorrels. not that i recall. he says, "i am sorry, but i can't do it. i was afraid seeing the television might have messed me up. i just can't be positive. i am sorry." mr. stern. as far as you know, had mr. brennan been interviewed by anyone after he gave his statement to the deputy sheriff until the time you had him brought to the police headquarters? mr. sorrels. no; not to my knowledge. mr. stern. was he then interviewed by anyone? mr. sorrels. i couldn't say. mr. stern. did you arrange for him to return to his home? mr. sorrels. as i recall it, i did. i told him "they will take you back to your home." mr. stern. immediately after the lineup? mr. sorrels. yes, sir. mr. stern. have you ever spoken to mr. brennan again after that day? mr. sorrels. yes; i have. mr. stern. when was that? mr. sorrels. we were assisting the commission in locating witnesses to come to washington, to the commission, and i got in touch with him and arranged for him to go and procured his ticket and delivered his ticket to him. mr. stern. and when you talked to him then, did he say anything that bears upon our inquiry that he hadn't said before? mr. sorrels. not that i recall. mr. stern. mr. sorrels, when you were at the police headquarters, after this interview with oswald that you have told us about, do you recall talking to any representative of the fbi? mr. sorrels. yes. mr. stern. who was that? mr. sorrels. now, let's get that question again, because i talked to them several times down there. when was that you said? mr. stern. after you interviewed oswald. mr. sorrels. oh, yes, yes. mr. stern. do you know an fbi agent attached to the dallas office named james hosty? mr. sorrels. yes, sir; i do. mr. stern. did you talk to mr. hosty that you recall? mr. sorrels. not that i recall; no, sir. mr. stern. might you have spoken to him, or do you think you would remember that? mr. sorrels. i think i would remember it. mr. stern. do you recall his being there? mr. sorrels. i think i saw him there. now, whether it was on the d or not, but i think during along this period, i saw him there one time. but i don't recall talking to mr. hosty at all down there. mr. stern. did any of the agents attached to your office tell you that they had talked to hosty? or that hosty had told them anything? mr. sorrels. yes; i think special agent patterson, i believe, said that he had seen hosty down there, and that hosty, i believe, had said that he had a file on oswald. mr. stern. do you recall anything else that agent patterson told you that mr. hosty had told him? mr. sorrels. no; i cannot recall anything else. because i had information--had also gotten information from others. in other words, there was general information around the police department there that the fbi had a file on this individual. mr. stern. any other of your agents tell you that hosty had said anything to them about oswald that you can recall? mr. sorrels. you mean at that specific date, regarding that specific date? mr. stern. either on friday or on saturday. mr. sorrels. no. during the course of this thing, it was my understanding that--i don't remember how the information came to me--that hosty had been checking on this oswald, and that they had information or knew that he was in this building. i cannot pinpoint it any way specifically, because the information came several different times to that effect. mr. stern. now, you told us something of oswald's physical appearance when you saw him at the interview. mr. sorrels. yes, sir. mr. stern. and at the showup. mr. sorrels. yes, sir. mr. stern. did his appearance change in the course of that time? mr. sorrels. not that i recall. mr. stern. over that -day period, did you see any sign that force or any other form of coercion was used on oswald by anyone? mr. sorrels. no, sir. mr. stern. did you observe or hear of any intimidation of oswald or the offer of any benefit to oswald if he were to confess? mr. sorrels. no, sir. mr. stern. did you participate in or observe any other interrogation of oswald following your own brief interrogation? mr. sorrels. yes, sir. mr. stern. when was that? mr. sorrels. on the following day---- mr. stern. that is saturday, the d? mr. sorrels. yes, sir; i sat in on part of an interview with him, with captain fritz. and then, again, on sunday the th, just before he was shot. mr. stern. did the question of counsel come up again--that is, a lawyer for oswald? mr. sorrels. yes. during the interview with captain fritz, when i was in there, he mentioned the fact that he wanted to get a man by the name of abt, or some similar name like that. i never had heard of him before. apt, or some similar name. and captain fritz said, "well, you can use the phone and you can call him." mr. stern. when was this? mr. sorrels. that was saturday morning. and it is my understanding that oswald did attempt to reach this man on the phone. mr. stern. but you didn't observe it? mr. sorrels. i did not observe that; no. mr. stern. did you hear him mention at any time a lawyer from the american civil liberties union? mr. sorrels. yes. he said if he could not get this man--i wish i could remember his name--a very short name, apt or something like that. mr. stern. a-b-t? mr. sorrels. yes, a-b-t. yes--if he couldn't get him, he wanted a lawyer supplied by the civil liberties union. mr. stern. what else occurred at the interview on saturday that you can remember? mr. sorrels. he was questioned about the rifle, because, at that time, as i recall it, it had been determined that the rifle had been purchased from kleins in chicago, and shipped to a person using the name of a. hidell. and he was questioned by captain fritz along those lines. and he denied that the rifle was his. he denied knowing or using the name of a. hidell, or alek hidell. he was, of course, questioned about his background and he at that time still maintained an arrogant, defiant attitude. the questions were, of course, directed towards getting information. a lot of them he would not answer. and a lot of the answers, of course, were apparent falsehoods. and he gave me the impression of lying to captain fritz, and deliberately doing so, maybe with an attempt to get captain fritz to become angered, because he, oswald, would flare up in an angry manner from time to time. mr. stern. but you think that was acting--not genuine? mr. sorrels. that is the impression i got, that he was just deliberately doing that, possibly to agitate captain fritz and maybe get him to become angry, and maybe do or say something that he shouldn't do. that is just the impression i gained from him. and the reason--i guess one reason i gained that impression is because on the last interview, on sunday morning, oswald seemed to have taken a little bit different attitude. in other words, he was talking a little bit freer--he wasn't giving out any information of any value particularly, but he wasn't flaring up like he did before. mr. stern. was that sunday interview extended beyond any time that you know of that it was scheduled to end? mr. sorrels. yes; it was, because the papers seemed to have gotten the impression that he was going to be moved at exactly o'clock in the morning, and captain fritz was talking to him even after o'clock in the morning--we were still there. and i recall that chief curry came around and asked captain fritz how long he was going to be, or what was holding it up, or something like that, that they wanted to go ahead and get him moved as quick as they could. mr. stern. did be indicate or did you understand that they wanted to move him at o'clock? mr. sorrels. it was after o'clock then, considerably. as a matter of fact, it was after at that time. captain fritz remarked to me afterwards, he said, "well, as long as it looks like he might talk, i hesitate to quit, or move him out at that time," and he told chief curry, "we will be through in a few minutes." and shortly after that, captain fritz asked if anyone wanted to ask him any questions, and, at that time, the postal inspector had obtained a change of address card which oswald had apparently filled out in which one of the names shown on that change of address card that was to receive mail at that particular address in new orleans was named a. hidell. and i desired to question oswald about that thing, because he had denied purchasing this rifle under the name of a. hidell, and he denied knowing anybody by the name of a. hidell. so i showed oswald this change of address card and said to him, "now, here is a change of address card that you filed in new orleans," and he looked at it. he did not deny that he had filed the card, because it was apparently in his handwriting, and his signature. and i said, "now you say that you have not used the name of a. hidell, but you show it on this card here as the name of a. hidell, as a person to receive mail at this address. if you do not know anyone by that name, why would you have that name on that card?" he said, "i never used the name of hidell." mr. stern. that was the last question he was asked? mr. sorrels. as far as i know. mr. stern. and then what happened? mr. sorrels. he was told that they were going to move him to the county jail, and he requested that he be permitted to get a shirt out of his--the clothes that had been brought in, that belonged to him, because the shirt he was wearing at the time he had been apprehended was taken, apparently for laboratory examination. and so captain fritz sent and got his clothes and, as i recall it, he selected a dark colored kind of a sweater type shirt, as i recall it. and then he was taken out, and, at that time, as i recall it, inspector kelley and i left and went up to--i say up--down the hall to the executive office area of the police department, and to the office of deputy chief batchelor. and we remained in that vicinity. i looked out the window, and saw the people across the street, on commerce street, people were waiting there. and i saw an individual that i know by the name of ruby goldstein, who is known as honest joe, that has a second-hand tool and pawnshop down on elm street, and everyone around there knows him. he was leaning on the car looking over in the direction of the ramp there at the police station. and we were just waiting around there. and for a few minutes i was talking to one of the police officers that was on duty up there in that area. and he had made the remark, "talking about open windows, i see one open across the street over there" at a building across the street. i looked over there. i didn't see any activity at the window. and we had walked out into the reception area of the executive office of the chief of police there when this same police officer said that he just heard that oswald had got shot in the stomach in the basement by jack rubin, as i understood at that time, r-u-b-i-n--who was supposed to run a night club. inspector kelley and i then went just as hurriedly as we could to the basement. mr. stern. as i understand it, mr. sorrels, you covered all the relevant information from this point of time on with mr. hubert yesterday. mr. sorrels. yes. and actually back just a little bit. mr. stern. is there anything that has occurred to you since your interview with mr. hubert that you would like to add now, to amplify anything you said yesterday to him? mr. sorrels. we were trying to establish something about the time yesterday morning that this transpired and so forth. and i could not fix any exact time. but knowing the fact that oswald, i believe, is reported to have been shot at : , i believe it is, and the fact that when we got into the basement of the city hall there at a time when oswald was still on the floor there, and was being given artificial respiration, as i said yesterday, and i immediately called my headquarters office in washington and told them about oswald being shot by jack rubin, a night club operator. and they asked me, of course, to get additional information and call them back. and from that telephone call, which went through very rapidly, i went back upstairs--didn't tarry there at all. and oswald was still there when i left and went back upstairs to captain fritz' office, because my thought was to talk to this man jack rubin as fast as i could. captain fritz was not there. they said he went to the hospital. i asked where ruby was. they said he was up on the fifth floor. i said i would like to talk to him. and i was sent with an officer to the jail elevator, went right on up there. so---- mr. stern. have you been able to establish the time of your phone call to deputy chief---- mr. sorrels. no, i have not been able to establish it. but after thinking the thing over, and the fact that oswald was still there at the time this call was made, i would say that that phone call was probably made between : and : , i would say. mr. stern. fine. mr. sorrels had you discussed with any official of the dallas police the plans to move oswald during a scheduled daylight hour, before the move was made? mr. sorrels. when i heard that he was supposed to be moved at o'clock in the morning, i said to captain fritz--and as i recall this conversation--i said to him, "captain, i wouldn't move that man at an announced time. i would take him out at or o'clock in the morning, when there is nobody around." and captain fritz said, "well, the chief has gone along with these people," talking about the press and television people, and said that he wanted to continue going along with them and cooperating with them all he can. and that was all that was said about that. i did not make that suggestion, or have a conversation like that with chief curry, as i recall, because i did not want to appear that i was trying to tell them how to run their business. mr. stern. what were conditions like in the third floor corridor of police headquarters from friday through sunday? mr. sorrels. mr. stern, you would almost have to be there to see it, to actually realize the conditions. the press and the television people just, as the expression goes, took over. i would almost every time i went up there, definitely after the d, i would have to identify myself to get in past the entrance of the elevator on the third floor, if i was going to the chief's office or the deputy chief's office or captain fritz' office. you would have to elbow your way through, and step over tripods and cables and wires, and every time almost that i would come out of captain fritz's office, the minute the door opened, they would flash on those bright lights, and i got where i just shadowed my eyes when i walked down there to keep the light from shining in my eyes. they had cables run through one of the deputy chief's office, right through the windows from the street up the side of the building, across the floor, out to the boxes where they could get power--they had wires running out of that, had the wires taped down to keep people from actually falling or stumbling over the wires. and it was just a condition that you can hardly explain. it was just almost indescribable. i know at one time when mr. jim underwood of krld, that is the dallas time herald television station down there, was in captain fritz' office with jack ruby's sister, and a lady friend of hers, trying to arrange for her to get up to talk to jack ruby, that the police officer who was stationed at the door to the detective's office had a terrific time keeping them--i thought they were going to barge on in there. they were yelling like mad--because mr. underwood was in there, and one of them was there yelling--"if he has got a right to be in here, we have a right to be in there." just as loud as he could. and mr. underwood had to leave captain fritz' office and say, "listen, fellows, i am not going upstairs. i am trying to make arrangements for this woman to see her brother--i am not going upstairs." that was just the situation you were booked up against there. and, of course, every time you would turn around, they would ask me something, and i would say, "no comment, i don't have any comment to make." and i don't think at any time you will see that there is any statement made by the newspapers or television that we said anything because mr. kelley, the inspector, told me "any information that is given out will have to come from inspector peterson in washington." finally, after they found out i would not say anything, they didn't bother me any more. many times when i would be going into the third floor area there, they would start to stop me, and a lot of the guys that would know me would say, "that is sorrels of the secret service." that happened more than once. and, of course, i would have to go ahead and identify myself. the officers that were on duty that had seen me before would recognize me and pass me through. mr. stern. can you estimate how many press representatives there were in that corridor? mr. sorrels. i am not too good in estimating anything like that, but there were dozens of them. mr. stern. was any effort made to restrict them to a far part of the corridor, or to remove them from the floor entirely that you know of? mr. sorrels. not that i know of. mr. stern. did you ever learn why this was not done--did you ever ask? mr. sorrels. no, i did not. i just thought to myself--well, if this was being handled in a federal building, this situation would not exist. that is what i thought. but, of course, that is a public building. i thought to myself--well, they are in here, and the chief would have a heck of a time getting them out. that is just my own thoughts about the thing, because i do know that the dallas police department, the dallas sheriff's office, they do try to go along with the press and everything like that. after this thing happened, mr. felix mcknight, who i mentioned before, who is a personal friend of mine, executive editor of the dallas times herald, he said to me, "forrest, those people should have been out of there, and that includes us." of course the thing was all over then. i would imagine that chief curry or anybody else that would have tried to have gotten them out of there would have really had a tough time and they probably would have really blasted them in the press. mr. stern. mr. sorrels, that covers the ground that i wanted to ask you about. is there anything you would like to add to anything you said this morning with respect to the advance preparations, the actual events in front of the book depository, your return there, anything that elapsed while you were at the police headquarters from friday afternoon through sunday morning--or with respect to anything you told mr. hubert about yesterday? just take a moment and think about it. and if there is anything you would like to amplify or add to what you have said that you think the commission should know, please tell me. mr. sorrels. i cannot recall anything right now, mr. stern. mr. stern. i would like you to identify this one page memorandum entitled "statement of forrest v. sorrels, special agent in charge, u.s. secret service, dallas, tex., november , ." i have marked this "exhibit ," deposition of f. v. sorrels, may , . mr. sorrels. yes, sir; that is a copy of a statement that i wrote up. mr. stern. would you initial that for me, please? mr. sorrels. yes. mr. stern. would you review the statement and see if there is anything you would like to add to it? i think you might just tell us what it covers. mr. sorrels. this is a statement which was written up by me on november , , relating the fact that the presidential motorcade---- mr. stern. the statement will be in the record, mr. sorrels. i meant just tell us the subject matter of it. mr. sorrels. relating to the events that i observed when the presidential motorcade went from love field until the time that i left the parkland hospital to go to the texas school book depository. mr. stern. is there anything you want to add to that statement that you have not already told us--because we have gone into this in much greater detail now. mr. sorrels. no, not that i can recall, because as you say we went into it in more detail. mr. stern. thank you very much, mr. sorrels. we appreciate very much your coming to washington to help us. mr. sorrels. i want to express my appreciation to you and to the commission for permitting me to not come on the week of the th, due to the fact that my little daughter had to go to the hospital. i certainly appreciate your consideration in letting me come at a later date. mr. stern. we were very happy we could arrange that, and we are glad to know she is well. mr. sorrels. thank you, sir. testimony of william j. waldman the testimony of william j. waldman was taken on may , , at west madison street, chicago, ill., by mr. david w. belin, assistant counsel of the president's commission. william j. waldman, called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: mr. belin. would you please state your full name? mr. waldman. william j. waldman. mr. belin. and where do you live, mr. waldman? mr. waldman. central avenue, wilmette, ill. mr. belin. is that a suburb of chicago? mr. waldman. it's a suburb of chicago. mr. belin. and what is your occupation? mr. waldman. vice president of klein's sporting goods, inc. mr. belin. how long have you been with klein's? mr. waldman. approximately years. mr. belin. and in your capacity as vice president, what are your general areas of work? mr. waldman. supervising office, warehouse, and retail operations, participating in the merchandising and advertising. mr. belin. what kinds of products does klein's sell? mr. waldman. sporting goods in the majority, with some few specialty items which appeal to the male consumer. mr. belin. would these include goods such as fishing items or hunting items? mr. waldman. yes. mr. belin. what is the fact as to whether or not included in the products handled by klein's are rifles? mr. waldman. would you restate the question? mr. belin. does klein's sporting goods, inc., handle rifles in their line of sporting goods? mr. waldman. they do. mr. belin. for the record, we would like to have a little bit more of your overall background. were you originally born in chicago? mr. waldman. no; i was born in sedalia, mo., november , . education: i don't know just what you're after. mr. belin. well, you went through high school? mr. waldman. i completed high school, attended carnegie institute of technology, new york university. i don't know the nature of how far you want this developed. mr. belin. well, you had some college work then? mr. waldman. yes. mr. belin. and after you got out of college, what did you do? mr. waldman. i got out of college and i was employed by sears and roebuck, spiegel's, inc., and various other employment, served in the u.s. army, air corps branch. mr. belin. this is during world war ii? mr. waldman. during world war ii. following which i was employed for a brief period in a family business, and subsequently by klein's sporting goods. mr. belin. mr. waldman, i hand you what is being marked as waldman deposition exhibit and ask you to state if you know what this is. mr. waldman. i do. mr. belin. could you please tell us what that statement constitutes? mr. waldman. this constitutes a purchase order of klein's directed to crescent firearms co. for italian carcano rifles prepared on january , --, oh, wait a minute; hold that a moment, january , , calling for units at a cost of $ . . mr. belin. now---- mr. waldman. i haven't finished. mr. belin. let me just ask you this preliminary question: this is a photostatic copy of a document, is it not? mr. waldman. it is. mr. belin. and is the original copy, or was the original copy prepared by someone under your direction or supervision? mr. waldman. the original was prepared under a system which i originated and this particular order was not prepared at my direction. it would be--the merchandise was ordered in a routine basis at a time in which it was needed, and---- mr. belin. do you know who the person is that filled out this order? mr. waldman. yes; his initials are so indicated as "m. w." mr. belin. would that be the name at the lower left-hand corner of exhibit ? mr. waldman. it is. mr. belin. and that is who? mr. waldman. mitchell w. westra. mr. belin. at that time was he an employee of your company? mr. waldman. he was. mr. belin. was he under your jurisdiction and supervision? mr. waldman. he was not under my direct supervision, no. he was under the direct supervision of sam kasper. mr. belin. and where is sam kasper now? mr. waldman. he may or may not be here. mr. belin. i don't mean this afternoon. is he with the company? mr. waldman. he is the vice president of our company. mr. belin. he is the other vice president of the company? mr. waldman. correct. mr. belin. all right. now, you started to go into the detail of what deposition exhibit constituted. i just wonder if you will pick up where you left off here. mr. waldman. yes; on the same form we show a record of the receipt of the rifles in question, specifically this extreme right-hand column which is filled in, indicating that on february , delivery was made to us by lifschultz trucking co. i might explain the difference in the two dates here. mr. belin. go ahead. mr. waldman. the february date is the date in which the merchandise came to our premises whereas the date of february , is the date in which they were officially received by our receiving department. mr. belin. your receiving department checks each order to see that the physical contents match the stated shipment on the invoice; is that correct? mr. waldman. they don't necessarily see that they match because they frequently do not match, but they determine actually how much was received by us. mr. belin. now, i notice on waldman deposition exhibit no. a date--well, i might read everything under the column of description; it says italian mannlicher-carcano, model ts, bolt action -shot rifle; and then cal.--that's for caliber-- . , and then there is an "x" and mm italian-select, clean, and test-fired, changed to beretta terni m , then a slash line eff, and then the date of / / . explain that date and that description. mr. waldman. yes; this general style of rifle was made by a number of different manufacturers over a period of time and there were minor modifications made by--developed by each of the manufacturers. mr. belin. would this be similar to a number of manufacturers making the springfield rifle in this country? mr. waldman. as for example, the different manufacturers making the springfield rifle. basically, the weapons were of the same general design, but as i say, there were details that were different. we originally had ordered one style of carcano rifle, one that was known as the model ts. as time went on, we changed to another model known as the model / eff, this on april , . mr. belin. now, i also note on waldman deposition exhibit no. , under the item number--some letters here or numbers---- mr. waldman. c -t . mr. belin. what does that signify? mr. waldman. this is an identification number assigned by us for internal operating purposes. mr. belin. would this be something akin to a catalog number? mr. waldman. yes. off the record now. can i speak without being---- mr. belin. yes. (whereupon, discussion was had off the record.) mr. belin. on the record. now, mr. waldman, you just requested to go off the record and told me that this is, the number that you read is not necessarily the only number that is assigned to one of these model rifles. do you ever have any other numbers assigned to them? mr. waldman. yes. mr. belin. what would be the occasion for assigning a different number? mr. waldman. when the rifle is offered and sold together with a scope and mount, we assign a different catalog number which describes the rifle, the scope and the mount. mr. belin. did you ever sell any of these particular rifles with scopes and mounts? mr. waldman. yes. mr. belin. were these scopes and mounts purchased from the same source as the rifle itself? mr. waldman. no. mr. belin. mr. waldman, on waldman deposition exhibit no. , does the date april , , have anything to do with the time with which you received orders from customers of klein's for any of these rifles? mr. waldman. that date has no reference to our activity with consumers as such. it only indicates in our buying of these rifles we changed from one model to another, both models being very similar. mr. belin. both being the mannlicher-carcano . caliber rifle? mr. waldman. correct. mr. belin. i'm going to hand you what has been marked as waldman deposition exhibit and ask you to state if you know what that is. mr. waldman. i do. mr. belin. what is it? mr. waldman. this is a delivery receipt from the lifschultz fast freight covering cases of guns delivered to klein's on february , , from crescent firearms. mr. belin. i note that there is some handwriting on waldman deposition exhibit no. that says. "klein's sporting goods, inc., j. a. mueller, - - ." would that be one of your employees at that time? mr. waldman. he was. mr. mueller was in charge of our receiving department at that time. mr. belin. and do you know how many guns or rifles would have been packed in each carton or case? mr. waldman. referring to the various delivery receipts, copies of which we have, these are packing slips, incidentally, not receipts; these were packing receipts included in each case. it was indicated there were rifles in each case. mr. belin. i'm going to hand you what has been marked as waldman deposition exhibit no. and ask you to state if you know what this is. mr. waldman. yes; these are memos prepared by crescent firearms showing serial numbers of rifles that were shipped to us and each one of these represents those rifles that were contained in a case. mr. belin. now, you earlier mentioned that these were packed with the case. mr. waldman. well, i would like to correct that. this particular company does not include these with the cases, but sends these memos separately with their invoice. mr. belin. now, again, waldman deposition exhibit no. is a photostatic copy. do you have the actual copies that came to you in front of you at this time? mr. waldman. i do. mr. belin. and is waldman deposition exhibit no. an accurate photostat of these other copies? mr. waldman. it is. mr. belin. i notice that there are numbers on each of these papers with serial numbers each. i see here no. , on the first photostat of waldman deposition exhibit no. . do you see that? mr. waldman. i do. mr. belin. i'm going to ask you to search through these photostats and see if you find any invoice number that has on it a serial number, c- . mr. waldman. crescent firearms delivery memo no. covering carton or case no. does have a--indicate a rifle bearing serial no. . mr. belin. well, is it or is there a prefix to it? mr. waldman. there is a prefix, c- . mr. belin. and you see that as also a part of waldman deposition exhibit no. ; i believe you are reading from the actual document in your possession which waldman deposition exhibit no. is a photostat of; is that correct? mr. waldman. that's correct. mr. belin. when a shipment of rifles is received, what is your procedure with regard to recordkeeping on the serial numbers of the rifles? mr. waldman. we assign to each rifle a control number which is a number used by us to record the history of the gun while it is in our possession and until it is sold, thus each rifle will be tagged with both this control number and with the serial number of the rifle which is stamped on the--imprinted on the gun by the manufacturer. mr. belin. do you have the same--does the same manufacturer give different serial numbers for each weapon that the manufacturer makes? mr. waldman. the gun manufacturers imprint a different number on each gun. it's stamped into the frame of the gun and serves as a unique identification for each gun. mr. belin. well, i hand you what has been marked as waldman deposition exhibit no. and ask you to state if you know what this is. mr. waldman. this is the record created by us showing the control number we have assigned to the gun together with the serial number that is imprinted in the frame of the gun. mr. belin. now, this is a photostat, i believe, of records you have in front of you on your desk right now? mr. waldman. that's correct. mr. belin. do you find anywhere on waldman deposition exhibit no. the serial number c- ? mr. waldman. yes. mr. belin. and what is your control number for that? mr. waldman. our control number for that is vc- . mr. belin. now, i'm going to hand you what has been marked as waldman deposition exhibit no. and ask you to state if you know what this is. mr. waldman. this is an invoice rendered us by crescent firearms on their date february , , for one hundred each . italian rifles. mr. belin. is there anything on that invoice that shows how the rifles were shipped to you? mr. waldman. it's indicated as having been shipped by the north penn transfer-lifschultz and that there were cases or cartons. mr. belin. does it show whether or not this invoice was paid? mr. waldman. it shows that payment was made on march , . mr. belin. mr. waldman, were you ever contacted by any law enforcement agency about the disposition of this mannlicher-carcano rifle that had the serial number c- on it? mr. waldman. yes; on the night of november , , the fbi contacted our company in an effort to determine whether the gun had been in our possession and, if so, what disposition we had made of it. mr. belin. do you know how the fbi happened to contact you or your company? mr. waldman. the fbi had a record of a gun of this type and with this serial number having been shipped to us by crescent firearms. mr. belin. do you mean that crescent firearms gave the fbi this information? mr. waldman. well, i--i must assume that's the case. i don't know it for a fact. mr. belin. all right. what did you and your company do when you were contacted by the fbi? mr. waldman. we met with the fbi in our offices. mr. belin. was this on friday evening, november ? mr. waldman. on friday evening, november . mr. belin. did the fbi indicate at what time, what period that they felt you might have received this rifle originally? mr. waldman. we were able to determine from our purchase records the date in which the rifle had been received, and they also had a record of when it had been shipped, so we knew the approximate date of receipt by us, and from that we made--let's see, we examined our microfilm records which show orders from mail order customers and related papers, and from this determined to whom the gun had been shipped by us. mr. belin. are these microfilm records part of your customary recording of transactions of your company? mr. waldman. yes; they are. mr. belin. i'm handing you what has been marked as an fbi exhibit d- and ask you if you know what this is. mr. waldman. this is a microfilm record that--of mail order transactions for a given period of time. it was turned over by us to the fbi. mr. belin. do you know when it was turned over to the fbi? mr. waldman. it was turned over to them on november , . mr. belin. now, you are reading from the carton containing that microfilm. do you know whose initials are on there? mr. waldman. yes; the initials on here are mine and they were put on the date on which this was turned over to the fbi concerned with the investigation. mr. belin. you have on your premises a machine for looking at the microfilm prints? mr. waldman. yes. mr. belin. and you can make copies of the microfilm prints? mr. waldman. yes. mr. belin. i wonder if we can adjourn the deposition upstairs to take a look at these records in the microfilm and get copies of the appropriate records that you found on the evening of november . mr. waldman. yes. (whereupon, the following proceedings were had at the microfilm machine.) mr. belin. mr. waldman, you have just put the microfilm which we call d- into your viewer which is marked a microfilm reader-printer, and you have identified this as no. , according to your records. is this just a record number of yours on this particular shipment? mr. waldman. that's a number which we assign for identification purposes. mr. belin. and on the microfilm record, would you please state who it shows this particular rifle was shipped to? mr. waldman. shipped to a mr. a.--last name--h-i-d-e-l-l, post office box , dallas, tex. mr. belin. and does it show any serial number or control number? mr. waldman. it shows shipment of a rifle bearing our control number vc- and serial number c- . mr. belin. is there a price shown for that? mr. waldman. price is $ . , plus $ . postage and handling, or a total of $ . . mr. belin. now, i see another number off to the left. what is this number? mr. waldman. the number that you referred to, c -t is a catalog number. mr. belin. and after that, there appears some words of identification or description. can you state what that is? mr. waldman. the number designates an item which we sell, namely, an italian carbine, . caliber rifle with the x scope. mr. belin. is there a date of shipment which appears on this microfilm record? mr. waldman. yes; the date of shipment was march , . mr. belin. does it show by what means it was shipped? mr. waldman. it was shipped by parcel post as indicated by this circle around the letters "pp." mr. belin. does it show if any amount was enclosed with the order itself? mr. waldman. yes; the amount that was enclosed with the order was $ . , as designated on the right-hand side of this order blank here. mr. belin. opposite the words "total amount enclosed"? mr. waldman. yes. mr. belin. is there anything which indicates in what form you received the money? mr. waldman. yes; below the amount is shown the letters "mo" designating money order. mr. belin. now, i see the extreme top of this microfilm, the date, march , ; to what does that refer? mr. waldman. this is an imprint made by our cash register indicating that the remittance received from the customer was passed through our register on that date. mr. belin. and to the right of that, i see $ . . is that correct? mr. waldman. that's correct. mr. belin. is there any other record that you have in connection with the shipment of this rifle other than the particular microfilm negative frame that we are looking at right now? mr. waldman. we have a--this microfilm record of a coupon clipped from a portion of one of our advertisements, which indicates by writing of the customer on the coupon that he ordered our catalog no. c -t ; and he has shown the price of the item, $ . , and gives as his name a. hidell, and his address as post office box , in dallas, tex. mr. belin. anything else on that negative microfilm frame? mr. waldman. the coupon overlays the envelope in which the order was mailed and this shows in the upper left-hand corner the return address of a. hidell, post office box , in dallas, tex. there is a postmark of dallas, tex., and a postdate of march , , indicating that the order was mailed by airmail. mr. belin. can you see the actual cancelled stamp in the upper right-hand corner? mr. waldman. yes. mr. belin. and the stamp itself says "united states airmail"? mr. waldman. that's correct. mr. belin. and underneath that, someone has written "airmail"; is that correct? mr. waldman. that's true. mr. belin. and someone has written it addressed to you; is that correct? mr. waldman. that's right. mr. belin. and is it possible on this machine to make prints of these negatives? (whereupon, it was attempted to make copies of said documents.) mr. belin. i think the record should show that all of this testimony has been taken upstairs with the court reporter present in front of the actual microfilm machine itself; is that correct? mr. waldman. that's correct. mr. belin. now, let us adjourn to your office and continue the taking of this testimony, please. (whereupon, the following proceedings were had at the office where the deposition originally commenced.) mr. belin. mr. waldman, i'm going to mark what has fbi exhibit d- on it as waldman deposition exhibit no. , being the container with your initials and the microfilm record itself, which you placed on the microfilm reader and about which you have just testified upstairs. now, i'm going to hand you what has been marked as waldman deposition exhibit no. and ask you to state if you know what this is. mr. waldman. this is a copy made from our microfilm reader-printer of an order received by klein's from a mr. a. hidell, post office box no. , in dallas, tex. i want to clarify that this is not the order, itself, received from mr. hidell, but it's a form created by us internally from an order received from mr. hidell on a small coupon taken from an advertisement of ours in a magazine. mr. belin. this waldman deposition exhibit no. is a print from the microfilm negative which we just viewed upstairs; is that correct? mr. waldman. that's correct. mr. belin. and waldman deposition exhibit no. is also a print from the microfilm record we viewed upstairs showing the actual coupon and the envelope in which the coupon was enclosed; is that correct? mr. waldman. that's correct. mr. belin. and do you have any general advertising program whereby you advertise in gun magazines? mr. waldman. we do. mr. belin. can you just give us one or more of the magazines in which this coupon might have been taken? mr. waldman. well, this coupon was specifically taken from american rifleman magazine, issue of february . it's identified by the department number which is shown as--now, if i can read this--shown as department on the coupon. mr. belin. and that number also appears in the address on the envelope to you, is that correct, or to your company? mr. waldman. that's correct. mr. belin. now, i believe that you said the total amount was $ . , plus $ . for shipping charges, or $ . ; is that correct? mr. waldman. the $ . is for both shipping charges and handling. mr. belin. i hand you what has been marked as commission exhibit no. , which appears to be a u.s. postal money order payable to the order of klein's sporting goods, and marked that it's from a purchaser named a. hidell, and as the purchaser's street address is post office box no. , and the purchaser's city, dallas, tex.; march , : and underneath the amount of $ . , the number , , , . and on the reverse side there appears to be an endorsement of a bank. i wonder if you would read that endorsement, if you would, and examine it, please. mr. waldman. this is a stamped endorsement reading "pay to the order of the first national bank of chicago," followed by our account no. space , and that, in turn, followed by "klein's sporting goods, inc." mr. belin. do you know whether or not that is your company's endorsement on that money order? mr. waldman. it's identical to our endorsement. mr. belin. and i hand you what has been marked as waldman deposition exhibit no. and ask you if you can state what this is. mr. waldman. this is our endorsement stamp which reads the same as that shown on the money order in question. mr. belin. you have just now stamped waldman deposition exhibit no. with your endorsement stamp? mr. waldman. correct. mr. belin. do you have any way of knowing when exactly this money order was deposited by your company? mr. waldman. i cannot specifically say when this money order was deposited by our company; however, as previously stated, a money order for $ . passed through our cash register on march , . mr. belin. you're reading from waldman---- mr. waldman. from a mr. a. hidell of post office box no. , from dallas, tex. mr. belin. and you are now reading from waldman deposition exhibit no. ? mr. waldman. as indicated on waldman deposition exhibit no. . now, we cannot specifically say when this money order was deposited, but on our deposit of march , , we show an item of $ . , as indicated on the xerox copy of our deposit slip marked, or identified by--as waldman deposition exhibit no. . mr. belin. and i have just marked as a document what you are reading from, which appears to be a deposit with the first national bank of chicago by your company; is that correct? mr. waldman. that's correct. mr. belin. and on that deposit, one of the items is $ . , out of a total deposit that day of $ , . ; is that correct? mr. waldman. that's correct. mr. belin. now, when we examined waldman deposition exhibit no. , you had a control number of which the last four numbers were t , and when you shipped the rifle, you had the control number with the last four numbers as t ; otherwise the control number is the same. could you tell us what accounts for the difference? mr. waldman. yes; these numbers that you referred to are not control numbers, as previously stated. these are known as catalog numbers. the number c -t describes a rifle only, whereas the catalog no. c -t describes the italian carbine rifle with a four-power scope, which is sold as a package unit. mr. belin. do you remember what the rifle would have cost without the scope? mr. waldman. as i recall, it was either $ . or $ . . mr. belin. would the advertisement run in the rifleman's magazine of february , have given the purchaser the option to buy with or without the scope, if you remember? mr. waldman. without specific reference to the ad, i would say that it did. most usually we did. mr. belin. and the purchaser would signify his preference in what manner? mr. waldman. the customer designates whether he wants the rifle only or whether he wants the rifle with the scope by his selection of catalog numbers. mr. belin. when this rifle came to your company, was the scope already mounted on it when you got it from crescent? mr. waldman. no. mr. belin. who put the scope on the rifle? mr. waldman. the scope was mounted on the rifle in our gun shop, most probably by a gunsmith named william sharp. mr. belin. would mr. sharp drill whatever holes were necessary for the mounting and do the actual mounting then himself? mr. waldman. yes. mr. belin. would mr. sharp or anyone else in your company in any way sight in the sight, whether it would be boresighting or actual firing with the sight? mr. waldman. no; it's very unlikely in an inexpensive rife of this sort that he would do anything other than roughly aline the scope with the rifle. mr. belin. do you have any records which show where you purchased the scope? mr. waldman. it's reasonably certain the scope was purchased from martin b. retting, inc., washington boulevard. culver city, calif. mr. belin. would it have any identification on the scope itself, if you know? mr. waldman. it's most probable it carried the name "ordnance optics." mr. belin. now, mr. waldman, perhaps we'd better further identify the microfilm which show your control numbers. we marked the microfilm as waldman deposition exhibit no. . do you have any control numbers on this at all which indicate which microfilm this is? mr. waldman. this is our film no. , which covers our transactions nos. through . mr. belin. and i believe that you already testified to the control number or transaction number that appears on waldman deposition exhibit no. as being number what? mr. waldman. . mr. belin. mr. waldman, referring to waldman deposition exhibit no. , which are the serial numbers of the rifles which were made in this shipment from crescent firearms to you, and waldman deposition exhibit no. , which is the invoice from crescent firearms which has stamped on it that it was paid by your company on march , is there any way to verify that this payment pertained to rifles which are shown on waldman deposition exhibit no. ? mr. waldman. the forms submitted by crescent firearms showing serial numbers of rifles included in the shipment covered by their invoice no. indicate that the rifle carrying serial no. c- was included in that shipment. mr. belin. now, those forms---- mr. waldman. those forms are your exhibit captioned waldman deposition exhibit no. . now, our payment voucher no. of march , , which is your waldman deposition exhibit no. shows in the lower portion, second column from the left, the number , which ties in with crescent firearms invoice no. . mr. belin. and you have before you a carbon copy of a check that was written by your company to crescent firearms in the amount of $ , and attached to it, the attachment that shows it's for invoice no. ? mr. waldman. that's correct. mr. belin. mr. waldman, do your records show whether or not the rifle was shipped with the scope mounted on it or is there any way that you know whether or not it was? mr. waldman. our catalog no. c -t , which was the number indicated on the coupon prepared by a. hidell, designates a rifle with scope attached. and we would have so shipped it unless the customer specifically specified that he did not wish to have it attached. there is nothing in our records to indicate that there was any request made by the customer, and therefore we would have every reason to believe that it was shipped as a rifle with scope mounted. mr. belin. do you know whether or not the rifle would have been broken down in shipment or whether or not it would have been shipped fully assembled? mr. waldman. it was customary for us to ship all of these rifles and scopes fully assembled, and i would have no reason to believe that this particular one would have been shipped otherwise. mr. belin. and do you know in what kind of a container it would have been shipped? mr. waldman. it was customary for us to ship these rifles with scopes attached in a corrugated cardboard carton made for us by the rudd container corporation of chicago. mr. belin. about how long would that carton be in size, if you know? mr. waldman. approximately inches. mr. belin. did you ever furnish any samples of this carton or any wrapping paper or tape to the fbi? mr. waldman. yes; we did furnish a sample of the carton together with the type of sealing tape that was generally used and such craft paper that may have been used for inner cushioning packing. mr. belin. mr. waldman, when we testified upstairs in front of the microfilm machine, was the microfilm itself more clear or less clear than the photostats or prints that have been made from it? mr. waldman. more clear. mr. belin. so it would be possible to read items on the microfilm itself that might not come out clear on the printed copies? mr. waldman. that's correct. mr. belin. mr. waldman, the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy appreciates all the cooperation which your company, and in particular you, have given to this situation. and we know that it's not a happy situation to you, and that the gun could have been purchased anywhere. as it happens, this particular gun was purchased with your company, and we want to thank you very much for your cooperation. mr. waldman. thank you. mr. belin. do you want to see the deposition before you sign it? mr. waldman, you have the right to read the deposition and sign it before anything further is done with it, or you can waive the signing of it, whatever you like. mr. waldman. it would be well for me to read this because of the possibility of a transposition of numbers or other errors in the recording. mr. belin. all right. (to reporter.) perhaps you can keep the original copy here, if you would, and give it to mr. waldman and mail the other copies directly to us in washington, and then could you make whatever corrections there are and send it directly to us in washington, and i'll give you my name if you would mail it to my attention. testimony of mitchell j. scibor the testimony of mitchell j. scibor was taken on may , , at west madison street, chicago, ill., by mr. david w. belin, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mitchell j. scibor, called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: mr. belin. would you please state your name for the record? mr. scibor. mitchell j. scibor. mr. belin. and where do you live? mr. scibor. north sayre avenue, chicago, ill. mr. belin. what is your occupation? mr. scibor. employed by klein's sporting goods. mr. belin. in what capacity? mr. scibor. general operating manager. mr. belin. were you so employed on or about november , ? mr. scibor. yes. mr. belin. were you at any time on that date contacted by any law enforcement agency with regard to a particular rifle, serial no. c- ? mr. scibor. yes. mr. belin. and could you tell us the circumstances surrounding this? mr. scibor. i got a call friday evening, november , asking if it would be possible to get at the records--at our records to see if that gun had been in our possession or sold by us. i got permission from one of the executives to open the store and view our records, and i came down here somewhere between and o'clock. mr. belin. and what did you do when you got down here? mr. scibor. we went in with the government men and--just before we went in, mr. waldman came down and we came in and he took over as far as getting--trying to find the information that we needed. mr. belin. how did you try to find that information? mr. scibor. by looking in our microfilm records of sales of merchandise for that particular gun. the fbi furnished us with information stating that we had received the gun from crescent firearms. mr. belin. well, did you look at the microfilms of your purchasers or your sales or what? mr. scibor. yes; we used two machines and looked at the microfilms of our sales until we had found that particular gun with the serial number. mr. belin. you were upstairs when mr. waldman was looking at the microfilm of which a printed copy is waldman deposition exhibit no. ; is that correct? mr. scibor. correct. mr. belin. and on waldman deposition exhibit no. , there is a serial no. c- ? mr. scibor. correct. mr. belin. was this serial number on waldman deposition exhibit no. the first contact you had on friday evening that led you to believe that you had shipped this particular rifle? mr. scibor. that's correct. mr. belin. when did you discover or find out this information, if you know--strike the question. i believe you said you got down here about o'clock that night? mr. scibor. between and . mr. belin. and then you started going through your microfilm records? mr. scibor. right. mr. belin. about when did you actually find the microfilm of which waldman deposition exhibit no. is a print? mr. scibor. about o'clock in the morning, as far as i can remember. mr. belin. you then turned this information over to the fbi? mr. scibor. mr. waldman did. mr. belin. now, i'm going to hand you what has been marked as waldman deposition exhibit no. and ask you to state if you know what this is. mr. scibor. yes; it's a copy of our receiving record which we use to identify firearms or guns by assigning a weapon a particular booking number or control number along with the serial number so at a future date we can identify that particular gun. mr. belin. have you ever seen waldman deposition exhibit no. before? mr. scibor. yes. mr. belin. i notice the date and the notations in the upper left-hand corner, rr- ; underneath that, the date - - . do you know what that has reference to? mr. scibor. yes; the "rr" stands for receiving record no. , and that merchandise was booked or actually received by our receiving department on - - . mr. belin. does it show from whom it was received? mr. scibor. yes; crescent firearms. mr. belin. and underneath the "crescent firearms," what does it say? mr. scibor. italian carcano t . . italian caliber rifle. mr. belin. now, there are some notations in the upper right-hand corner, what does that have reference to? mr. scibor. those are notations strictly for the receiving department. i have the men back there keep these in rotation so that i can always fill--in the same rotation as they come out of. mr. belin. and did you do any of that writing at all? mr. scibor. no. mr. belin. what is the fact as to whether or not these serial numbers are assigned by people under your supervision? mr. scibor. repeat that. mr. belin. well, do you have any supervision or control over the people making the entries on the serial numbers and your control numbers? mr. scibor. yes. mr. belin. i don't believe we went into your background, general background. you might state where you were born and what educational background you have, for the record. mr. scibor. i was born in chicago, november , . i finished years of high school, - / years in the marine corps, and klein's sporting goods. mr. belin. you're married? mr. scibor. i have been with klein's for years. mr. belin. you have been with klein's for ---- mr. scibor. approximately years. mr. belin. and you're married? mr. scibor. married and two children. mr. belin. where is waldman deposition exhibit no. filed customarily? mr. scibor. that is filed in a desk drawer back in the receiving department, which i designated that those should be filed. mr. belin. do you have any master control ledger or book of any kind that has these control numbers on them? mr. scibor. yes. one copy is sent to what we call the booking department, and those are put into a master book, control book. mr. belin. are you required by law to keep records of serial numbers of guns? mr. scibor. yes. mr. belin. and do you find on waldman deposition exhibit no. your control number for a rifle with the serial number c- ? mr. scibor. yes. mr. belin. what is your control number? mr. scibor. vc- . mr. belin. how are these serial numbers obtained for placement on waldman deposition exhibit no. ? mr. scibor. directly off the guns. mr. belin. does someone actually look at the gun? mr. scibor. yes; someone looks; visually they are taken off the guns. mr. belin. we want to thank you very much, sir, for your cooperation in helping obtaining this information. testimony of heinz w. michaelis the testimony of heinz w. michaelis was taken at a.m., on may , , at north soto street, los angeles. calif., by mr. joseph a. ball, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. george a. rose, president of george rose & co., was present. mr. ball. will you state your full name for the record, please? mr. michaelis. heinz w. michaelis, m-i-c-h-a-e-l-i-s. mr. ball. what is your first name? mr. michaelis. heinz, h-e-i-n-z. mr. ball. heinz michaelis. mr. michaelis, you received a letter last week from mr. rankin, counsel for the commission, did you not? mr. michaelis. yes. mr. ball. that was what date that you received it? mr. michaelis. i received it on thursday. mr. ball. that would be---- mr. michaelis. --the th. mr. ball. the th of may. and you were invited to give your testimony today by way of this deposition, weren't you? mr. michaelis. yes. mr. ball. you are willing to do so, are you not? mr. michaelis. yes. mr. ball. and you understand that the purpose of the inquiry is to inquire into the facts surrounding the assassination of president kennedy in dallas on november , ? mr. michaelis. yes. mr. ball. what is your address? mr. michaelis. west olympic boulevard. mr. ball. in los angeles? mr. michaelis. los angeles. mr. ball. and your business address? mr. michaelis. pardon me. correction. . i am sorry. mr. ball. and your business address? mr. michaelis. north soto, los angeles. mr. ball. have you recently changed your business address? mr. michaelis. yes. mr. ball. from what address? mr. michaelis. from south grand avenue. mr. ball. are you employed, self-employed, or do you work for some company? mr. michaelis. i work for the george rose & co. mr. ball. what business is the george rose & co. engaged in? mr. rose. you work for merchanteers. mr. michaelis. oh, pardon me; merchanteers, inc. mr. ball. your immediate employer is merchanteers, inc.? mr. michaelis. merchanteers, inc. mr. ball. is that associated with the george rose & co.? mr. michaelis. yes. mr. ball. in what business is merchanteers, inc., engaged? mr. michaelis. merchanteers, inc. has mail order---- mr. rose. mail order and management. mr. michaelis. and management. mr. ball. and does it do work for george rose & co.? mr. michaelis. do i work for george rose & co.? mr. rose. yes. mr. ball. well, merchanteers, inc.--it is the mail order agency for george rose & co., is it? mr. rose. no; may i clarify it? mr. ball. yes; well, i better have him, and then i may ask you to clarify it. mr. rose. yes; all right. mr. ball. tell me what you know of the relationship between george rose & co. and merchanteers? mr. michaelis. well, merchanteers. inc. is a mail-order business. but, it is also a management company and makes out the paychecks for employees from the george rose & co. mr. ball. i see. now, what business is george rose & co. engaged in? mr. michaelis. george rose & co. are wholesalers and sell to retail stores. mr. ball. what do they sell? mr. michaelis. musical instruments, cutlery, firearms, watches, clocks, and various others. mr. ball. does george rose & co. engage in any mail-order business? mr. michaelis. yeah; we get mail orders, too. mr. ball. you take mail orders as george rose & co.? mr. michaelis. yes. mr. rose. wholesale. mr. ball. at wholesale? mr. michaelis. wholesale, yeah. mr. ball. now, there is also a company called seaport traders, isn't there? mr. michaelis. seaport traders is another mail-order business. mr. ball. it is another mail-order business? mr. michaelis. correct. mr. ball. do you work for them? mr. michaelis. only in a supervisory position. mr. ball. that is the company that you work for. merchanteers, you say? mr. michaelis. merchanteers; yes. mr. ball. is it merchanteers, inc.? mr. michaelis. merchanteers, inc.; yes. mr. ball. they manage the business of seaport traders? mr. michaelis. that is correct. mr. ball. now, last fall did the federal bureau of investigation visit your place of business and inquire as to the sale of a certain smith & wesson revolver? mr. michaelis. correct. mr. ball. about what date? mr. michaelis. i believe it was november the th, a saturday. mr. ball. and in searching your records for any such sale, to what particular record did you first look? mr. michaelis. we started first, after having received the serial number, through our serial number book for this particular type of gun. mr. ball. now, what serial number did the fbi give you? mr. michaelis. v, as in victory, - . mr. ball. now, those two numbers signify what? mr. michaelis. the first number, v , is commonly described as the butt number, while the second number, , usually is described as the crane number. mr. ball. now, the serial numbers are stamped where on the gun? mr. michaelis. as mentioned before, the first number is on the butt of the gun. mr. ball. i see. mr. michaelis. and also it appears on the lower part of the barrel. furthermore, it appears also on the outside rim of the cylinder of the gun. in other words, the first number, , appears three times on the gun. mr. ball. and that is usually known as the serial number of the gun; is that right? mr. michaelis. yes. but, we are--it is required that since smith & wesson revolvers carry two kinds of serial numbers, also to list the so-called crane number. mr. ball. is that also known as the assembly number, the crane number? mr. michaelis. i am not familiar with the word assembly number, but it might be possible. mr. ball. what is the meaning of the word crane? mr. michaelis. the crane is when you flip off the cylinder, inside is a crane and there is a number on the stem, which is the second number. mr. ball. do you maintain a record of all sales of guns in a book? mr. michaelis. yes; in this book here. mr. ball. you have the book before you, do you not? mr. michaelis. yes. mr. ball. that is a black, looseleaf notebook; looseleaf notebook with a black cover. is that correct? mr. michaelis. correct. mr. ball. and you keep that in handwriting, or by typewriting? mr. michaelis. handwriting. mr. ball. do you keep a typewritten or handwritten record? mr. michaelis. handwritten. mr. ball. when the agent from the federal bureau of investigation called on you on saturday, november , , you looked to your book that carries a record in handwriting of your sales? mr. michaelis. yes. mr. ball. and did you find this record of this particular gun? mr. michaelis. yes. mr. ball. i hand you here a document which is identified as fbi laboratory no. d- , being a photostat. do you recognize this? mr. michaelis. yes. mr. ball. will you compare that with the page in your notebook? mr. michaelis. it is the same. mr. ball. and that is identified in your notebook as case no. ? mr. michaelis. case no. . mr. ball. what is the significance of the words "case no. "? mr. michaelis. it is a listing of a case which we received. mr. ball. of a case, a particular case, of guns; is that correct? mr. michaelis. correct. mr. ball. it also has a enclosed in a circle. what is the significance of that? mr. michaelis. i presume that is the contents, the piece contents of the case. mr. ball. you found, therefore, a record in your notebook, and that would indicate what? that you had sold the gun at some time? mr. michaelis. that is correct. mr. ball. now, i would like to offer and have marked this photostat of a page of the looseleaf notebook, which is identified as case no. , as exhibit no. to this deposition of mr. michaelis. (whereupon the document last referred to hereinabove was marked to the michaelis deposition as commission exhibit no. for identification by the notary public.) mr. ball. now, from that looseleaf notebook were you able to determine from what source you bought the gun? mr. michaelis. yes. mr. ball. can you tell me now where you bought the gun and when? mr. michaelis. yes. yes. mr. ball. and from whom? mr. michaelis. excuse me. mr. ball. now, you have before you now a file? mr. michaelis. yes, sir. mr. ball. and does it refer to this particular purchase of guns? mr. michaelis. no. we bought altogether guns. mr. ball. ? and what is the file, the title, that you are now showing? mr. michaelis. empire wholesale. mr. ball. all right. now, tell me what you found as to the source of this gun; where you bought it and from whom. mr. michaelis. we bought it from empire wholesale sporting goods, ltd., craig street west, montreal , quebec. mr. ball. and what date did you buy it? mr. michaelis. invoice no. dated october , . mr. ball. and it was shipped to you by the empire wholesale sporting goods, ltd., on what date? mr. michaelis. it went--it was on / / , in st. albans, vt., and from then on it was directed to our place of business, which was at that time south grand avenue. however, the merchandise in question did not arrive before january , . mr. ball. is that the date it did arrive? mr. michaelis. yes. it was received january , . mr. ball. off the record. (discussion held off the record.) mr. ball. now, when this gun was first received, what was the length of its barrel? mr. michaelis. five inches. mr. ball. and was it changed? mr. michaelis. it was changed. mr. ball. to what? mr. michaelis. to a - / -inch barrel. mr. ball. how did you happen to do that? mr. michaelis. well, we gave the guns out to mr. l. m. johnson and instructed him to make up the guns as far as barrel lengths are concerned to our specifications. mr. ball. why did you shorten them from to - / inches? explain to me for the record. mr. michaelis. because we have quite frequently calls for the smith & wesson revolvers with shorter barrels such as - / inch or inch. mr. ball. did you shorten all of the consignment that you received? mr. michaelis. no. mr. ball. just a certain number? mr. michaelis. yes, sir. mr. ball. now, this particular gun was shortened, then, from to - / ? mr. michaelis. correct. mr. ball. mr. johnson's number--and is that m. l. johnson? mr. michaelis. yes; just a minute. or l. m. it is m. l. mr. ball. and what is his address? mr. michaelis. at that time, burbank boulevard, van nuys, calif. mr. ball. now, that gun was sold, was it not, pursuant to a mail order? mr. michaelis. yes; mail order. mr. ball. i hand you a document which has been marked commission exhibit no. . will you examine that and tell me whether or not you ever saw that before? mr. michaelis. i saw it the first time on november the th. mr. ball. the first time? mr. michaelis. yes, sir. mr. ball. and where did you find that? where was it when you saw it on november ? mr. michaelis. it was attached to our invoice no. , in the records, the red copy. mr. ball. now, this particular mail order, did you have anything to do with filling that order? mr. michaelis. no. mr. ball. what is your position here? do you have charge of the office? mr. michaelis. i am manager. mr. ball. you are manager of the office? mr. michaelis. that is correct. mr. ball. and all of these records are under your control, are they? mr. michaelis. well, not particularly at that time because my actual supervision of the seaport traders, inc., activities started later during the year. i mean in september and october, when the girl in charge left. mr. ball. at least in november you were in charge and in possession of all of the records of the seaport traders? mr. michaelis. that is correct. mr. ball. you have no personal knowledge, then, of the transaction by which the gun was shipped and sold? mr. michaelis. not prior to the first investigation. mr. ball. but you are providing me with records which were under your control as of november ? mr. michaelis. yes; correct. mr. ball. now, can you tell me who would have actually received the mail order through the mail and who would have filled the order and shipped it? do you know what person would have done this? mr. michaelis. there are various operations. the order was received by---- mr. rose. i probably would have opened it. mr. michaelis. yes; mr. rose usually opens the mail and distributes the mail. this particular order would have gone to the person in charge at that time of the seaport traders, who was emma vaughn. mr. ball. who? mr. michaelis. emma vaughn, v-a-u-g-h-n. mr. ball. then what would have happened? mr. michaelis. she would have processed the order in writing up invoice no. . after week she gave out the order to the order filler and packer. mr. ball. what is the name? mr. michaelis. this is a title, order filler and packer. she is one person. mr. ball. what is that last word? mr. michaelis. packer. mr. ball. packer. i see. mr. michaelis. and the order was shipped on march the th, . mr. ball. you have been testifying from a record which you have before you? mr. michaelis. that is correct. mr. ball. and that is a paper which has been marked for identification by the federal bureau of investigation dl- , seaport traders, inc., no. a- . is that correct? you have been testifying from information contained on that? mr. michaelis. correct. mr. ball. that was in your records, was it, as of november , ? mr. michaelis. yes; it was. mr. ball. will you tell me, describe that document and tell me its significance in your business? mr. michaelis. this particular document is, after the order is processed, filed in our records under the name of the respective customer. mr. ball. you mean after the revolver that was ordered by this mail order coupon, , has been packed and shipped, this invoice a- , is filed as a permanent record, is it, of the shipment? mr. michaelis. correct; filed under the name of the respective customer. mr. ball. now, this shows the words a. j. hidell, p. . box , dallas, tex. this appears on this invoice a- , does it not? mr. michaelis. yes. mr. ball. it is described as an s. & w. . special, -inch commando. what is the meaning of that? mr. michaelis. two inch is the barrel length. commando is a description which we more or less gave because we have another -inch gun at a higher price and, in order that the order filler is able to identify between the two types, we have this type described as commando. mr. ball. now, the no. . what is the significance of that number? mr. michaelis. it is the serial number of the gun in question. mr. ball. and it shows deposit, $ . balance c.o.d., $ . . what is the significance of that? mr. michaelis. we received, together with the order, the amount of $ in cash. since the sales price is $ . , the merchandise was shipped with a c.o.d. for the balance of $ . . mr. ball. does this invoice show the date it was shipped? mr. michaelis. yes. mr. ball. what was that? mr. michaelis. march . mr. ball. ? mr. michaelis. . mr. ball. does it also show which one of your companies shipped it? mr. michaelis. the seaport traders, inc. mr. ball. i would like to have this document marked, invoice no. a- , as the exhibit no. to the deposition of mr. michaelis. (whereupon the document last referred to hereinabove was marked to the michaelis deposition as commission exhibit no. for identification by the notary public.) mr. ball. now i also show you a white copy of invoice no. a- which has been marked on the face as dl- . can you tell me what that document is? mr. michaelis. this document is the first copy of the invoice no. which is kept in the office as permanent record and is filed in the numerical order. mr. ball. can you tell me what your business custom was in march of with reference to the preparing of invoices, original invoice and copies, and shipping an item which had been ordered by mail? mr. michaelis. the order received by mail is written up and invoiced in quadruplicate on a snap-out form. the first white copy remains in the office and is filed on a numerical order. the second copy is used as a packing slip whereby the upper part of the invoice is torn off and used as a shipping label and the lower part used as a packing slip. the third copy is filed permanently in the office under the name of the respective customer after the order has been shipped. the fourth copy is the acknowledgment of the order copy and lists on the back side a statement which has to be signed by the respective customer. mr. ball. what statement? mr. michaelis. a statement to the effect, i believe that it said that the buyer states that he is a citizen of the united states, and that he has never been convicted in any court of the united states, territories, possessions, et cetera. do you want me---- mr. ball. well, now, this fourth copy that has on the back this statement by the customer, is that mailed to the customer? mr. michaelis. it is mailed to the customer, but not in this particular case. indicated on the invoice are three x's, which indicates that we have already a statement to this effect on file because this particular mail order coupon has already the statement, and the name of the witness. mr. ball. now, the particular mail-order coupon that you refer to is commission no. , and it has on it the statement required together with the witness? mr. michaelis. with the witness; that's right. mr. ball. and that witness' name is what? mr. michaelis. well, i identify it as d-r-i-t-t-a-l. mr. ball. that's right. you are right. mr. michaelis. yes. mr. ball. then in this instance the fourth copy did not go to the purchaser? mr. michaelis. did not go to the purchaser; that is correct. mr. ball. and the first copy is in white and is the one which you have identified? mr. michaelis. yes. mr. ball. and we will mark that as exhibit . (whereupon the document last referred to hereinabove was marked to the michaelis deposition as commission exhibit no. for identification by the notary public.) mr. ball. the second copy is in red, is that correct? mr. michaelis. the second copy is in yellow. mr. ball. yellow. that is the packing slip copy? mr. michaelis. correct. mr. ball. the third copy is in red? mr. michaelis. correct. mr. ball. and that is the one you have identified as exhibit , is that correct? mr. michaelis. yes; that's correct. mr. ball. and in this instance the fourth copy was not used, is that correct? mr. michaelis. that is correct. mr. ball. exhibits and were also found as a part of your original records when you investigated, or looked through your records at the request of the federal bureau of investigation on november , . is that correct? mr. michaelis. correct. mr. ball. i will show you another document here which is a slip of red paper marked "railway express agency" which has been heretofore identified with an fbi exhibit no. dl- . what is that document? mr. michaelis. just a minute. i have to get the original. now, this exhibit number---- mr. ball. it is given a no. dl- . will you describe it, please? mr. michaelis. yes; that is a copy of the receipt which we got from the railway express agency showing that on march , , one carton with a pistol was shipped to a. hidell, p.o. box , dallas, tex. it shows, furthermore, that railway express is instructed to collect a c.o.d. fee of $ . . and it shows furthermore the number of the original receipt, which is . mr. ball. number of original receipt? which receipt? mr. michaelis. of the railway express receipt. mr. ball. is this it here? mr. michaelis. yes. mr. ball. original receipt, railway express receipt, is that correct? mr. michaelis. yes. mr. ball. does it identify the invoice in any way? mr. michaelis. no. mr. ball. except by name, is that right? mr. michaelis. except by name. mr. ball. and does it describe the article shipped? mr. michaelis. only in broad terms. mr. ball. what? mr. michaelis. one carton consisting of a pistol. mr. ball. one carton, pistol. i see. i would like to have this marked as exhibit , being the pink copy of a railway express receipt. (whereupon the document last referred to hereinabove was marked to the michaelis deposition as commission exhibit no. for identification by the notary public.) mr. ball. now, a document identified as no. dl- by the bureau of investigation, receipt no. . will you describe that for me, please? mr. michaelis. this document is required in addition by the railway express agency for all c.o.d. shipments, and indicates again the name of the consignee, his address, and lists our invoice number which is, in this case, no. . it directs the railway express agency to remit the amount to be collected to seaport traders, inc. the amount of the c.o.d. is $ . , and the service charge has to be collected from the consignee. mr. ball. i would like to have that marked as exhibit . (whereupon the document last referred to hereinabove was marked to the michaelis deposition as commission exhibit no. for identification by the notary public.) mr. ball. now, exhibit has been described as a railway express agency receipt. exhibit , which is an additional document entitled "a brief of information for c.o.d. shipment, railway express agency," those were in your files when you searched for information regarding the sale of this pistol as of november , . is that correct? mr. michaelis. correct. mr. ball. is there anything in your files which shows that the railway express did remit to you the $ . ? mr. michaelis. the fact that the exhibit number--may i see this green one? mr. ball. five. mr. michaelis. was attached to the red copy of the invoice. mr. ball. red copy of the invoice being---- mr. michaelis. no; was attached to the red copy of the invoice, exhibit number---- mr. ball. two. mr. michaelis. indicates that the money was received. mr. ball. i see. now, these documents were delivered to the federal bureau of investigation by you, were they not? mr. michaelis. through mr. wood; yes. mr. ball. and these documents, exhibits to , inclusive, are original documents, are they not? mr. michaelis. yes. mr. ball. exhibit being a photostat of the page in your looseleaf notebook? mr. michaelis. correct. mr. ball. which carries the record of the sale, record of the item? mr. michaelis. correct. mr. ball. and does anybody in your organization that you know of have any personal knowledge of packing this particular gun and shipping it? mr. michaelis. i doubt very much that the packer would remember this particular parcel. mr. ball. about how many guns of this type do you sell and ship out of here in a year? mr. michaelis. in year? mr. ball. yes; just a general estimate. mr. michaelis. for seaport traders? mr. rose. that type of gun--we sell more . 's. mr. ball. well, about how many? mr. michaelis. seaport traders, i would say that--this is a rough guess, mr. ball. this particular type, that seaport traders might have sold maybe in a year; , in a year. mr. ball. would that be sold through mail order, or both mail order---- mr. michaelis. i am talking about particularly mail-order business from seaport traders. mr. ball. or ? mr. michaelis. , , of this particular type of gun. mr. ball. is there anything else that you know about this particular transaction that you would like to tell me? mr. michaelis. no, sir; i believe i answered all the questions of this transaction. affidavit of j. c. cason the following affidavit was executed by j. c. cason on may , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy state of texas, _county of dallas, ss_: i, j. c. cason, president and treasurer, of the texas school book depository declare the following statements: the texas school book depository was organized in as a sole proprietorship and continued in this manner until when it was incorporated under the laws of the state of texas. the corporation's offices are located at elm and houston streets, dallas, texas, and its warehouse and storage plant are located at north houston street, dallas, texas. it neither owns nor operated any other buildings in dallas or in any other city. the present officers are: j. c. cason, president and treasurer; and o. v. campbell, vice president and secretary. the directors are: j. c. cason, o. v. campbell and r. s. truly. the shareholders of all outstanding capital stock are j. c. cason and o. v. campbell. the corporation acts as an independent agency for a group of thirty-three publishers to warehouse and distribute textbooks to the various schools in the states of texas, oklahoma, arkansas, louisiana, and new mexico. it has no other business activity other than that afore mentioned. it is not connected in any way with any state or municipal government and operates solely as a private corporation with a charter from the state of texas. signed the d day of may . (s) j. c. cason, j. c. cason. affidavit of c. n. dhority the following affidavit was executed by c. n. dhority on may , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy state of texas, _county of dallas, ss:_ before me, mary rattan, a notary public in and for said county, state of texas, on this day personally appeared detective c. n. dhority, dallas police department, who after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says: the night of november , captain j. w. fritz gave me three . rifle hulls and told me to give them to lt. j. c. day in the crime lab. captain j. w. fritz told me to have lt. day to dust them for prints and return one of the . hulls to him. i took these three . rifle hulls to lt. day and gave them to him in an envelope which had been previously marked by det. r. m. sims. lt. day dusted the shells for prints and gave me one back. i returned this . shell back to captain j. w. fritz. signed this th day of may . (s) c. n. dhority, c. n. dhority. testimony of roy s. truly the testimony of roy s. truly was taken at : p.m., on may , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. joseph a. ball, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. ball. now, mr. truly, this is a continuation of your deposition. i took the last one and you have been sworn and i don't know that it is exactly necessary for you to take the oath again, since this is a continuation of the deposition. i took the last one, didn't i? mr. truly. oh, no; i gave a statement that was under oath. mr. ball. oh, no; this is a deposition. you appeared before the commission--that's right. mr. truly. mr. belin took my sworn deposition also about a week before i went up there when you both were in dallas and he also took a recorded deposition. mr. ball. yes; that was just an investigation, an inquiry. we didn't record that. you weren't under oath then. will you stand up and be sworn? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before this commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. truly. i do. mr. ball. now, will you state your name, please? mr. truly. roy s. truly. mr. ball. and you are superintendent of the texas school book depository? mr. truly. that's correct. mr. ball. is that your title? mr. truly. and a director of the depository. mr. ball. you have been employed by the depository for a number of years? mr. truly. since ; since . mr. ball. you testified before the commission in washington, you say, on the th of march ; did you not? mr. truly. that's right. mr. ball. your testimony is filed in volume , i believe, of the commission here. there are certain matters which have come to the attention of the commission since then that i would like to inquire about, and that's the reason we are taking your deposition, which will be in addition to the testimony you have already given. do you recall anytime that you saw any guns in the texas school book depository building? mr. truly. yes; i did. mr. ball. prior to november , ? mr. truly. yes; i saw two guns on november . mr. ball. whose guns were they? mr. truly. they belonged to mr. warren caster. mr. ball. now, before inquiring into the circumstances of seeing two guns that belonged to mr. warren caster on november , , i'll ask you whether or not you ever at anytime before that time or after that time saw guns in the texas school book depository building? mr. truly. never before. mr. ball. never before, and between that date wednesday, november , and friday, november , did you ever see any guns in the texas school book depository building? mr. truly. i did see guns in there after the assassination. mr. ball. that is, you saw guns of police officers? mr. truly. of the police officers. mr. ball. carried by police officers? mr. truly. yes; and i saw a rifle being carried from the building. mr. ball. in other words, a rifle was found on the sixth floor? mr. truly. yes. mr. ball. you saw that in place on the sixth floor? mr. truly. no; i did not. mr. ball. you didn't? mr. truly. i only saw the rifle as they were going out the front door. mr. ball. before the assassination, was there any other occasion besides the one we are inquiring about, when you saw guns in the texas school book depository building? mr. truly. never. mr. ball. on november , , you saw two guns owned by mr. warren caster, can you tell me where and when and the circumstances under which you saw these guns? mr. truly. it was during the lunch period or right at the end of the lunch period on november . mr. caster came in the door from the first floor and spoke to me and showed me two rifles that he had just purchased. i looked at these and picked up the larger one of the two and examined it and handed it back to mr. caster, with the remark that it was really a handsome rifle or words to that effect, at which time mr. caster explained to me that he had bought himself a rifle to go deer hunting with, and he hadn't had one and he had been intending to buy one for a long time, and that he had also bought a . rifle for his boy. mr. ball. did you handle the . rifle? mr. truly. not that i recall. mr. ball. you did see it, though? mr. truly. i did see it. mr. ball. was it out of the carton? mr. truly. the carton was open, i believe, and i saw it. i don't recall picking it up or taking it out of the carton, but i could see it lying in the bottom part of the carton. mr. ball. and you did take the large rifle out? mr. truly. and raised it to my shoulder and go through the motion of sighting it, but not cocking it--just looking at it. mr. ball. who else was there besides you and mr. caster? mr. truly. well, the only person i can recall being there was mr. shelley. mr. ball. and what is his position with the texas school book depository? mr. truly. he is manager of the miscellaneous department. mr. ball. was this in the open warehouse? mr. truly. yes; right at the front. mr. caster had placed the cartons on the counter near the front door and that's where the rifles were when i saw them, and i picked one up out of the cartons. mr. ball. and were they employees of the texas school book depository company on the first floor at that time? mr. truly. yes; they were--as i recall the time--that the boys had probably gone back to work and could have been walking around before they went in the shipping department. mr. ball. that would have been about what time of the day? mr. truly. i'd say around o'clock--very close to it. it could have been a little after or a little before. the boys go back to lunch at : , so there i'm not too clear. mr. ball. what happened to these two rifles, mr. truly, that mr. caster got during the noon hour? mr. truly. they were placed back in the carton and mr. caster carried them out of the lobby door with him. that's the last i saw them. mr. ball. did you ever see them again? mr. truly. never--never. mr. ball. did you ever see from that day until friday, november , did you ever see those guns in the school book depository building? mr. truly. no, sir; i never did. mr. ball. now, you recall that in your testimony before the commission you told them that at some time after the shooting, you advised captain fritz of the name of lee oswald and his address in irving? mr. truly. yes, i did. mr. ball. and in order to place the time of it, was it before or after the rifle had been found on the sixth floor? mr. truly. i wouldn't know. i think it must have been around the time the rifle was found, because i was not on the sixth floor at that time, but when i told--let's go back a few minutes--pardon me--i told chief lumpkin a good many minutes after we came down from the roof and he went ahead and gave some orders to two or three policemen surrounding him and then said, "let's go up and tell captain fritz." mr. ball. now, what did you tell chief lumpkin when you came down from the roof of the building? mr. truly. when i noticed this boy was missing, i told chief lumpkin that, "we have a man here that's missing." i said, "it may not mean anything, but he isn't here." i first called down to the other warehouse and had mr. akin pull the application of the boy so i could get--quickly get his address in irving and his general description, so i could be more accurate than i would be. mr. ball. was he the only man missing? mr. truly. the only one i noticed at that time. now, i think there was one or two more, possibly charles givens, but i had seen him out in front walking up the street just before the firing of the gun. mr. ball. but walking which way? mr. truly. the last time i saw him, he was walking across houston street, east on elm. mr. ball. did you make a check of your employees afterwards? mr. truly. no, no; not complete. no, i just saw the group of the employees over there on the floor and i noticed this boy wasn't with them. with no thought in my mind except that i had seen him a short time before in the building, i noticed he wasn't there. mr. ball. what do you mean "a short time before"? mr. truly. i would say or minutes. mr. ball. you mean that's when you saw him in the lunchroom? mr. truly. in the lunchroom. mr. ball. and you noticed he wasn't over there? mr. truly. well, i asked bill shelley if he had seen him around and he said no. mr. ball. now, you told chief lumpkin that there was a man missing? mr. truly. yes; and he said, "let's go tell captain fritz." well, i didn't know where captain fritz was. mr. ball. now, did you tell chief lumpkin the man was missing before or after you called to the warehouse and got the name? mr. truly. no, i called the warehouse beforehand. mr. ball. you didn't talk to any police officer before you called the warehouse and got the address? mr. truly. not that i remember. mr. ball. you did that on your own without instructions? mr. truly. that's right. mr. ball. so, when you talked to chief lumpkin, you at that time had in your possession there the address of lee oswald in irving? mr. truly. that's right, i had scribbled it down on a piece of map or something so i would remember it. mr. ball. that is the address that he had put on his application form for employment? mr. truly. that's right. mr. ball. and did you know of any other address? mr. truly. i didn't know of any other address at all. mr. ball. of lee oswald? mr. truly. i supposed that's where he was living. mr. ball. where was captain fritz when you saw him? mr. truly. he was on the sixth floor in the area where they found the rifle. mr. ball. and was the rifle there at the time? mr. truly. no, i never saw the rifle. mr. ball. was this after or before the rifle had been taken from the building? mr. truly. it was before the rifle had been taken from the building. mr. ball. and do you know whether it was before or after the rifle was found? mr. truly. apparently the rifle had been found before i got to the sixth floor, but just how early, i don't know. mr. ball. but you had heard that the rifle was found, had you, by your talk with fritz? mr. truly. that's--i don't know--i learned it was found while i was on the sixth floor. mr. ball. while you were on the sixth floor? mr. truly. while i was on the sixth floor. mr. ball. in other words, you went with chief lumpkin to the sixth floor, didn't you? mr. truly. yes. mr. ball. and what was your purpose of going there? mr. truly. my purpose in going there was to inform captain fritz that this boy was missing and give him his telephone number, and his irving address, at the suggestion of chief lumpkin, who accompanied me. mr. ball. did you give captain fritz this name and address? mr. truly. yes, i did. mr. ball. was it while you were there that you learned the rifle had been found? mr. truly. i don't remember who i learned this from---- mr. ball. i didn't ask you that, i'm talking about time only. mr. truly. that was while i was on the sixth floor is when i learned the rifle was found, but i did not see it. mr. ball. all right. now, was it before or after you told captain fritz the name and address of lee oswald, that you learned that the rifle was found? mr. truly. i can't remember, i believe it was afterwards. mr. ball. you are sure it was after you told captain fritz--after what, you tell me? mr. truly. i told--well, when chief lumpkin and i went to the sixth floor, captain fritz was standing in the area where i later learned they had found the gun, and chief lumpkin told captain fritz that mr. truly had something to tell him, which i would like to tell him, so he stepped over or feet to where i was, away from the other men--officers and reporters, i would say, that were on the floor, and i repeated the words to captain fritz. mr. ball. what did you tell him? mr. truly. i told him that we had a man missing--i told him what his name was and his irving address and he said, "all right, thank you, mr. truly. we will get right on it," or words to that effect, and so i left the sixth floor shortly. while i was up there, just as i left captain fritz, a reporter walked over and said, "what about this fellow oswald?" and i said, "where did you learn the name 'oswald'?" because i had talked rather low to captain fritz and i said, "he's just an employee here," and i left, and sometime--someone informed me that they had found the gun. i don't know who it was. mr. ball. about that time? mr. truly. it was along about that time, as near as i can remember, and i went back down to the first floor and i don't think i was up on the sixth floor any other time that day. i possibly could have been, but i don't recall it, because i was besieged by reporters and everybody else on the first floor, and talking to officers and so forth and i had no occasion to go back up there. mr. ball. now, about what time of day would you say is your best estimate that you told captain fritz of the name "lee oswald" and his address? mr. truly. my best estimate would be a little before o'clock-- minutes. mr. ball. the gun wasn't found until after o'clock? mr. truly. it wasn't found until after o'clock? mr. ball. no, it wasn't found until after o'clock. i won't tell you exactly the time the gun was found, but i will say that the gun was not found until after o'clock. mr. truly. well, i may be mistaken about where i learned they had found the gun. i thought it was on the sixth floor--it could have been some other place. mr. ball. captain fritz said you didn't tell him that until after the gun was found and that seems to correspond with your memory too, is that correct? mr. truly. it sure does, because i remember clearly that captain fritz was over at where the gun was found and i'm sure they must have found it or he wouldn't have been standing in that area when we came up there. mr. ball. now, if the gun was found after o'clock, when was it that you discovered that lee oswald wasn't there? mr. truly. i thought it was about minutes after the shooting--the assassination, but it could have been longer. mr. ball. in other words, you thought originally it might have been minutes of or so that you learned that? mr. truly. ten minutes to . mr. ball. ten minutes to ? mr. truly. it was around o'clock--that period of time after i came down from the sixth floor to the first floor was rather hazy in my memory. mr. ball. you think it might have been after when you first noticed he wasn't there? mr. truly. i don't think so--i don't feel like at was. it could have possibly been so. mr. ball. well, if the gun was not found before : , if it wasn't found before that, can you give me any estimate? mr. truly. that seems to be a longer time after the assassination. mr. ball. you didn't wait minutes from the time you learned lee oswald's address until the time you told captain fritz, did you? mr. truly. no, sir; i did stand there on the first floor waiting until chief lumpkin got through talking for a few minutes. mr. ball. tell me about how many minutes you think it was from the time you obtained the address of lee oswald until you told captain fritz the name and address? mr. truly. i think it was immediately. mr. ball. immediately? mr. truly. immediately, after i called to the warehouse and got his name and address in irving, i turned around and walked over and told captain fritz at that time. mr. ball. chief lumpkin? mr. truly. yes; chief lumpkin. mr. ball. yes; chief lumpkin. mr. truly. and i remember chief lumpkin talking to two or three officers and i stepped back and he went ahead and told them a few things--it could have been or or minutes. mr. ball. not over that? mr. truly. i don't believe so, and then he came to me and said, "all right, mr. truly, let's go up and see captain fritz and tell him this." mr. ball. then, if the gun wasn't found until after : , you think it might have been as late as : or so before you discovered that oswald wasn't there? mr. truly. it could be--it could have been. mr. ball. you have no exact memory as to the time you discovered he was not there? mr. truly. no, sir; i didn't believe after thinking things over--it was over in or minutes after the shots were fired, but after retracing my trip to the roof and the time delay and back, i would have to say that it was farther along in the day than i had believed, so it could have been or : or something like that. mr. ball. before you discovered oswald wasn't there? mr. truly. that's right, and at such time that you have information of the officers taking the names of the workers in the warehouse over in and around the wrapping tables, it was at such time that i noticed that this boy wasn't among the other workers. mr. ball. you remember you had seen him on the second floor, didn't you? mr. truly. that's right. mr. ball. that's when you were with officer baker? mr. truly. that's right. mr. ball. now, you heard that tippit had been shot, didn't you? mr. truly. not after--until after i had told chief lumpkin and captain fritz and come back down to the first floor, then i learned that he had been shot. the first i learned of it--there was a young officer ran in the front door and told another officer, possibly a lieutenant, that there was an officer shot in oak cliff and that was all i knew at that time. i did not know that they had captured oswald then. later on a newspaper reporter told me. mr. ball. now, you say that you knew that givens was not there afterwards? mr. truly. i knew he wasn't there at the time of the shooting because i had seen him walk across the street--up the street. mr. ball. toward what? mr. truly. up elm street across houston. mr. ball. toward main--down toward main? mr. truly. i saw him walking on the north side of elm, crossing houston--on the north side of elm crossing houston. however, at that time i saw two other boys with him and i later learned, i believe, that it was james jarman and possibly harold norman--there were two or three--they were all standing in the crowd close to myself and they started across houston street up elm. i didn't see them turn over to the right across elm. mr. ball. wait a minute--you saw norman and jarman with givens in front of the texas school book depository building first, didn't you? mr. truly. right; sometime earlier--a good deal--a little while before the shooting--i believe they were the three. mr. ball. did you see jarman and norman going across elm? mr. truly. i'm pretty sure there was the three of them. mr. ball. and jarman and norman say that they went back into the building? mr. truly. well, apparently they did, but i saw them out there--i noticed them there on the corner and starting across the street, but whether they completed it--i don't know. mr. ball. where is the last place you saw givens? mr. truly. the last place i remember seeing givens was in the middle of the crossing, in the middle of houston street. mr. ball. walking in which direction? mr. truly. walking east. mr. ball. walking east on the north side of elm? mr. truly. north side of elm--he had not completely crossed the street--houston street. mr. ball. now, did givens come back to the building later? mr. truly. i didn't see him--later on he did. mr. ball. when--how much later? mr. truly. much later--i suppose--i don't know his actions during that day. mr. ball. did he come back to the building? mr. truly. no. mr. ball. after the shooting? mr. truly. i can't say--i think he came back to the front of the building--i can't answer for sure whether he came in the building--i know he was at the police station later on. mr. ball. i think that's all right now. (the deposition of the deponent truly was adjourned from room federal building, dallas, tex., and continued at the office of the deponent truly in the texas school book depository building, elm street, dallas, tex., as follows:) mr. ball. mr. truly, when you came into the building with officer baker you tried to look up the elevator shaft, didn't you? mr. truly. yes; i sure did. mr. ball. and where did you see the elevators? mr. truly. on the fifth floor--both of them on the same floor. mr. ball. they were both up on the fifth floor? mr. truly. yes. mr. ball. you are sure of that? mr. truly. i am sure, because their bottoms were level. mr. ball. when you went up to the floor, was there an elevator on any of the floors? mr. truly. when i reached the fifth floor, the east elevator was there, but west one was not. mr. ball. do you know where it was? mr. truly. no; i don't. i didn't look, i just remember it wasn't upstairs, so it was down below me somewhere. mr. ball. you took the east elevator? mr. truly. i took the east elevator load to the seventh floor. mr. ball. that's all. mr. truly. fine. testimony of warren caster the testimony of warren caster was taken at p.m., on may , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. joseph a. ball, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. ball. mr. caster, would you please stand up and take the oath? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before this commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. caster. i do. mr. ball. will you state your full name, please? mr. caster. warren caster. mr. ball. and where do you live? mr. caster. merrell. mr. ball. what is your business? mr. caster. textbook publishing. mr. ball. are you with some company? mr. caster. yes; i am assistant manager for southwestern publishing co. with offices at elm street. mr. ball. you have offices in the texas school book depository building? mr. caster. yes. mr. ball. you rent those offices from the texas school book depository? mr. caster. the offices are furnished in connection with our work with the depository. mr. ball. will you tell me something about yourself, where you were born and where you were raised and educated? mr. caster. yes; i was born in new mexico, educated in new mexico, received my college degrees at new mexico highlands university at las vegas, n. mex. i taught school in new mexico from until i started to work with southwestern publishing co. in . there was a period of about years that i spent in the u.s. navy. mr. ball. and have you had your offices since in the texas school book depository building? mr. caster. the offices have been in the texas school book depository building, but not in this particular building here. we have occupied three places since i have been with the southwestern publishing co. mr. ball. your office is on which floor? mr. caster. second floor. mr. ball. did you ever bring any guns into the school book depository building? mr. caster. yes; i did. mr. ball. when? mr. caster. i believe it was on wednesday, november , during the noon hour. mr. ball. whose guns were they? mr. caster. they were my guns. mr. ball. and what kind of guns were they? mr. caster. one gun was a remington, single-shot, . rifle, and the other was a . - sporterized mauser. mr. ball. who owned them? mr. caster. i had just purchased them during the noon hour that day. mr. ball. well, tell us about it--what were the circumstances of the purchase? mr. caster. well, i left the depository during the noon hour and had lunch and, while out for the lunch hour, i stopped by sanger-harris sporting goods department to look for a rifle for my son's birthday--i beg your pardon, christmas present--son's christmas present, and while i was there i purchased the single-shot . --single shot--and at the same time was looking at some deer rifles. i had, oh, for several years been thinking about buying a deer rifle and they happened to have one that i liked and i purchased the . - while i was there. mr. ball. and did they box them up? mr. caster. they were in cartons; yes. mr. ball. and then you went back to work, i guess? mr. caster. yes; i picked both rifles up in cartons just like they were, this was during the noon hour, and as i entered the texas school book depository building on my way up to the buying office, i stopped by mr. truly's office, and while i was there we examined the two rifles that i had purchased. mr. ball. did you take them out of the carton? mr. caster. yes; i did. mr. ball. who was there besides you and mr. truly? mr. caster. well, i'm not really sure who was there. i think you were there, bill, and mr. shelley was there--and mr. roy truly. the only people that i know about, in any event, were there; there were workers there at the time, but i'm not quite sure how many. i couldn't even tell you their names. i don't know the texas school book depository workers there in the shipping department. mr. ball. in that office, though, truly's office, how many were there? mr. caster. we weren't in mr. truly's immediate office, we were just there over the counter. mr. ball. in the warehouse? mr. caster. we were there in the hall--just right there over the counter in front of the warehouse; that's right. mr. ball. and did you take the guns out of the carton? mr. caster. yes; i did. they were removed from the carton. mr. ball. did you handle them? mr. caster. yes; i did. mr. ball. did anybody else handle the guns? mr. caster. mr. truly handled them and i'm not sure whether mr. shelley had the guns in his hands or not; i'm not positive. mr. ball. how long a time were you there with the guns, and by time, just estimate it. mr. caster. well, it couldn't have been more than minutes. mr. ball. what did you do with the guns after that? mr. caster. i put them back in the carton and carried them up to my office. mr. ball. and what did you do with them after that? mr. caster. i left at the end of the working day, oh, around o'clock and took the guns in the cartons and carried them and put them in my car and carried them home. mr. ball. did you ever have them back in the texas school book depository building thereafter? mr. caster. they have never been back to the texas school book depository building since then. mr. ball. where were those guns on november , ? mr. caster. the guns were in my home, merrell road. mr. ball. i think that's all. this will be written up and you will be asked to come in and it will be submitted to you for signature and you can correct it if you wish. mr. caster. that's all right. mr. ball. any corrections you make, make them in pen and ink and initial it and sign it. i want to thank you very much for giving this testimony. mr. caster. i thank you very much. testimony of eddie piper the testimony of eddie piper was taken at p.m., on may , , at the texas school book depository building, dallas, tex., by mr. joseph a. ball, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. ball. you understand since this is a continuation of your deposition you are under oath still? mr. piper. thank you; i appreciate it. mr. ball. your deposition has been taken? mr. piper. yes; that's right. mr. ball. i'm going to just ask you a few questions. mr. piper. sure, that's all right. mr. ball. you told us that after the shooting you came out onto the floor? mr. piper. that's right. mr. ball. and the first people that you saw on the floor after the shooting was who? mr. piper. mr. truly and some fellow--i really don't know who it was; like i say, it was some fellow that was with mr. truly. mr. ball. some fellow; how was he dressed? mr. piper. oh, i don't know. mr. ball. was he an officer? mr. piper. yes; i believe he was an officer. mr. ball. a police officer? mr. piper. yes; a police officer. mr. ball. did he have a white helmet on? mr. piper. no; i don't think so. i didn't pay any attention to it. i was already excited over the shooting or something when he came running into the building. mr. ball. and what did truly and this--some fellow do? mr. piper. well, mr. truly and this fellow run up the steps. he just hollered for the elevator and i said, "i don't know where it is at," and i'm still standing over there by that table and he ran up--on up the steps with this police officer--him and another fellow and i was standing there and the people began swarming out and around--different ones coming in, but it was where nobody could come out. mr. ball. they were the first ones to go up the steps? mr. piper. that's right. mr. ball. had anybody come down the steps before they went up the steps? mr. piper. no, sir. mr. ball. they weren't the first ones to come down? mr. piper. yes; and when the elevators come down--i really don't know who brought the elevators down, but i know nobody ever come down the steps. mr. ball. did you ever see vicki adams come down the steps? mr. piper. no, sir; i don't know about that, if she said she did, it was after i got over here and walked over to the back door. mr. ball. did vicki adams come down before truly and the man went up the steps? mr. piper. no, sir, no, sir; she didn't do it. mr. ball. did you at anytime after the shooting miss lee oswald--did you notice he wasn't around? mr. piper. no, sir; i didn't notice it until the lineup. you know, i just figured all the people was there. mr. ball. you did notice it at the lineup, did you? mr. piper. yes. mr. ball. tell us about that. mr. piper. i did notice it in the lineup. mr. ball. what do you mean by the lineup? mr. piper. i mean, when they lined us all up and told us to give our name and address and just to go home. mr. ball. you say "they"; who do you mean? mr. piper. the detective--whoever it was. mr. ball. the police? mr. piper. yes; they had the building all surrounded. they went to locking the doors back and front and told us to all come up and then go home, and i told him, i says, "i've got to go down in the basement and get my clothes," and he said, "you can go down and get your clothes and come on back up here, but give me your identification and your name and tell us where you are staying," and everybody heard me say that, i guess, and he let us out of the building, one by one, and i went on out the front door. mr. ball. did you say something to anybody about not seeing oswald there? mr. piper. no, sir; i didn't say it, but i just saw he wasn't in the lineup--i didn't tell anyone because i didn't see him. mr. ball. just tell us what did you notice? mr. piper. i noticed he was not in the lineup. mr. ball. you noticed that he was not in the lineup? mr. piper. yes. mr. ball. but you didn't mention it to anybody? mr. piper. no, sir; i didn't mention it but i knows he wasn't in the lineup, and charles--i don't know whether he was, but he went out for lunch. mr. ball. was charles givens there? mr. piper. i couldn't remember seeing him. he went out for lunch and i don't remember whether he come out from the building again or not because i was getting dressed to get out of there myself. mr. ball. that's all. mr. piper. thank you, mr. chairman. testimony of william h. shelley the testimony of william h. shelley was taken at p.m., on may , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. joseph a. ball, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. ball. mr. shelley, you have been sworn and this will be a continuation of your deposition. you are still under oath, you understand that? mr. shelley. yes, sir. mr. ball. do you recall seeing a couple of guns in the texas school book depository building on the th of november ? mr. shelley. yes, sir. mr. ball. where? mr. shelley. just outside mr. truly's office on the will-call counter. mr. ball. and how did they get there? mr. shelley. mr. warren caster had just purchased them and brought them in and stopped by to see us. mr. ball. did you handle the guns? mr. shelley. i held the . . mr. ball. and was there another make of gun too--there was, wasn't there? mr. shelley. yes; i believe there was a . - mauser that had been converted. it was a foreign make converted to a . - mr. ball. did you handle that? mr. shelley. no. mr. ball. what happened to the guns? mr. shelley. well, we looked them over, like you do any new toy, and he puts them back in the box and goes out of the door. mr. ball. and did you ever see them again? mr. shelley. no, sir. mr. ball. had you ever seen any guns in that building before that date? mr. shelley. no, sir. mr. ball. did you ever see any guns in that building between that date and the time the president was shot? mr. shelley. no, sir. mr. ball. on november , , the day the president was shot, when is the last time you saw oswald? mr. shelley. it was or minutes before . mr. ball. where? mr. shelley. on the first floor over near the telephone. mr. ball. did you ever see him again? mr. shelley. at the police station when they brought him in. mr. ball. did you see him in the building at anytime after ? mr. shelley. no. mr. ball. did you at anytime after the president was shot see oswald in the building? mr. shelley. no, sir. mr. ball. did you at anytime after the president was shot tell oswald to go home? mr. shelley. no, sir. mr. ball. did you tell anybody to go home? mr. shelley. no. mr. ball. you didn't tell anybody to leave the building at all? mr. shelley. no, sir. mr. ball. now, you recall going up to the sixth floor after the shooting, do you? mr. shelley. yes. mr. ball. did you go over to the southeast corner of the building where there was a window open? mr. shelley. not all the way; they had it blocked off. mr. ball. did you at a later time go over there? mr. shelley. no, sir; not for several days afterwards. mr. ball. did you several days afterward go over there? mr. shelley. after they released us to go back to work in the corner. we kept out for several days. mr. ball. when you went back there, were there two rolling readers on top of a larger box? mr. shelley. no, sir; those were carried in by the local authorities. the boxes--the rolling readers were there. mr. ball. they were? mr. shelley. but the boxes that they were originally packed in were gone--they had been carried up to the police station. mr. ball. you have seen pictures of the window, haven't you? mr. shelley. oh, yes. mr. ball. with the larger box on the floor and two rolling readers on the top? mr. shelley. yes, sir. mr. ball. one rolling reader resting in the sill of the window? mr. shelley. yes. mr. ball. now, the rolling readers were stacked three aisles away, i believe you testified, haven't you, before? mr. shelley. i'm not sure how many aisles we moved all that stock now, but it was at least three aisles. mr. ball. away from the southeast corner? mr. shelley. yes; they were at least half way across the building from this corner. mr. ball. had you ever instructed anybody to take two rolling readers over there? mr. shelley. no, sir. mr. ball. would it have been unusual for two rolling readers to be out of the stack and over there? mr. shelley. very unusual, because they are different size cartons from everything else. mr. ball. you mean from everything else in the southeast corner? mr. shelley. well, from any box on that floor. mr. ball. they were? mr. shelley. yes; they were little boxes. the rest of them are pretty good sized. mr. ball. you had had a special place for the rolling readers? mr. shelley. yes, sir. mr. ball. then, the two rolling readers that were over in the southeast corner were out of place, were they? mr. shelley. they sure were. mr. ball. had you ever seen them out of place before? mr. shelley. no, sir. mr. ball. had you ever seen those rolling readers in that corner before? mr. shelley. no, sir. mr. ball. now, we have seen pictures of a large box on the floor. mr. shelley. yes, sir. mr. ball. do you recognize that? mr. shelley. yes, sir. mr. ball. what is that? mr. shelley. you mean the one under the rolling readers? mr. ball. the one under the rolling readers. mr. shelley. it was a carton of "think and do" books, first-grade level. mr. ball. "think and do" books? mr. shelley. yes, sir. mr. ball. of the first-grade level? mr. shelley. yes. mr. ball. those cartons were larger than the rolling readers, aren't they? mr. shelley. about four time as large. mr. ball. can you describe their size in inches? mr. shelley. i would say they are around long, wide, and tall, approximately. mr. ball. what would you say is the size--was the size of the rolling reader? mr. shelley. it's about inches long-- by . mr. ball. now, was there a place where things and those books were usually stacked on the sixth floor? mr. shelley. yes, sir. mr. ball. where? mr. shelley. along the west wall all the way across. mr. ball. you had been doing work up there that day, had you? mr. shelley. yes; i mean the east wall; i'm sorry. mr. ball. had they ever been in the west wall? mr. shelley. no, sir; when we moved in that building we put them on the west wall. mr. ball. on the west wall? mr. shelley. on the west wall; i mean the east wall. mr. ball. then, the "think and do" books were on the east wall? mr. shelley. yes. mr. ball. and piled how many cartons high? mr. shelley. well, there were some of them as high as eight high. mr. ball. then, this carton of "think and do" books that was on the floor, near the window, under the two rolling readers, was stacked--would have been stacked along the east wall? mr. shelley. no; that was a new title and we didn't have a place for it and it had been set up on the west wall and when we started laying the floor, we had to move all of the stock over there, including that particular type. mr. ball. then, when you moved the stock, where did you move these "think and do" book cartons? mr. shelley. they are on the south side--along the south side of the building. we just had a big line of stock, you know; the first thing that was pulled out, we would roll it onto the southeast corner, and then the row went right on back toward the west wall. mr. ball. along the west wall? mr. shelley. we started rolling it east and then it went back west and as you fill in an order, it goes back west, you see. mr. ball. there was also a carton of books where they found some handprints and they cut a piece out of the top; do you remember that? don't you? mr. shelley. yes. mr. ball. do you recognize that carton? mr. shelley. that was another carton of "think and do" books--sixth grade. mr. ball. where were those cartons usually stacked? mr. shelley. they were stacked in the southeast corner on the east wall. mr. ball. about where that was found, was it not? mr. shelley. yes. mr. ball. now, the "think and do" books for the first-grade level, that was underneath the two rolling readers; was that out of place? mr. shelley. yes. mr. ball. how far away from the place where those books were usually stacked? mr. shelley. where they were previously stacked was over near the west wall. mr. ball. but where you had rolled them to; how far was it? mr. shelley. oh, about feet. mr. ball. about feet? mr. shelley. yes. mr. ball. and the "think and do" books, sixth-grade level, where the piece had been cut out to examine for his palmprint, was it in its proper place? mr. shelley. well, all that stock was stacked clear to the south wall on the east side and some cartons had been moved and stacked on top of some more. there was an empty spot there and this one particular carton was sitting on it there. mr. ball. by itself? mr. shelley. yes; by itself. by the side where the rest of them were. mr. ball. now, lee oswald was a checker, wasn't he? mr. shelley. an order filler. mr. ball. an order filler? mr. shelley. yes, sir. mr. ball. and do you recall that when he came to work he used a clipboard to put his orders on; is that correct? mr. shelley. yes, sir; all of the boys do. mr. ball. all the boys use clipboards? mr. shelley. yes. mr. ball. do you know where oswald got the clipboard he used? mr. shelley. well, it was a piece of cardboard, actually, with a clip on it and it was homemade--he could have made it himself. mr. ball. you don't know who made it? mr. shelley. no; i'm not for sure. mr. ball. were you present when the clipboard was found on the sixth floor? mr. shelley. it was frankie kaiser that found that and came down and told me and i told mr. pinkston with the fbi. mr. ball. did you go up and look at it? mr. shelley. i went up with him and he got it. mr. ball. did you see a name on it? mr. shelley. i think it had frankie's name on it--frankie kaiser's name. he said he thought that might have been one he had made before--he was all times making them. mr. ball. i believe that's all. your other deposition is going to come down here and you can sign it at the same time you sign this one. mr. shelley. ok; i was coming back up the next day and we were awful busy down there is the reason i didn't. mr. ball. anyway, it will come down for your signature and you can look it over and, if you have any corrections to make, correct them and initial them. that's all, and thank you. mr. shelley. all right; thank you. testimony of edward shields the testimony of edward shields was taken at : p.m., on may , , at the texas school book depository building, dallas, tex., by mr. joseph a. ball, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. ball. do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before this commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. shields. i do. mr. ball. state your name. mr. shields. edward shields. mr. ball. where do you live? mr. shields. i live now at stirling. i was living at cleaves street. mr. ball. what is your occupation? mr. shields. i work in the shipping department, but some guy put it down that i worked as a shipping clerk. i do receiving and shipping with the shipping department. mr. ball. of what company? mr. shields. with the texas school book co. at north houston, at the warehouse. mr. ball. that's how far from the building that is at the corner of houston and elm? mr. shields. well, i'd say about three blocks down to this old building. mr. ball. how long have you worked for the texas school book co.? mr. shields. it will be years the th of august. mr. ball. but you work in the warehouse? mr. shields. i do. mr. ball. on november , , were you out watching the parade pass by? mr. shields. i was. mr. ball. for what time? mr. shields. i'd say from about to to about after ; i mean, about to to after --i heard the shooting. mr. ball. the shooting was at : . mr. shields. it was--that's when we was standing there watching the parade when it came through. mr. ball. how did you get around to see him before? mr. shields. we just got on the parking lot there because we go up there and sit down there and talk with james tracey. mr. ball. who is james tracey? mr. shields. he was the manager of the lot--there's somebody else there now. mr. ball. that lot is where? mr. shields. it's near record and elm. mr. ball. near record and elm? mr. shields. yes. mr. ball. you say you go up there to a parking lot? mr. shields. well, we go over there every day at noon and talk to the fellow that ran it, but that's not the same fellow there now. mr. ball. but had you, prior to november , , had it been your custom of going over there to see him at noon? mr. shields. i had been going by there every day at noon. mr. ball. what about givens? mr. shields. i would be going some days when he wouldn't go, but i would see him--james tracey--every day at noon. mr. ball. on november , did you go over there? mr. shields. i was there--yes; i was there. mr. ball. approximately what time? mr. shields. that was around to --that would be to after . mr. ball. what about givens? mr. shields. he was there at noon after he had eaten his lunch, i mean, he come on up there. mr. ball. did you see the president's motorcade? mr. shields. i sure did. mr. ball. where was it when you saw it? mr. shields. i was just standing right around there at mullendorf's cafe. mr. ball. at what address? mr. shields. on record and main. mr. ball. who was with you? mr. shields. givens. mr. ball. and did you hear any shots? mr. shields. yes; i heard the shots. mr. ball. and what did you and givens do after you heard the shots? mr. shields. i said, "the president has been shot"; we walked back to the lot and where tracey was. i heard one shot and then a pause and then this repetition--two shots right behind the other, and i thought it was backfire from a car and i said, "someone shot the president." mr. ball. you said, "someone shot the president"? mr. shields. that's right, i did. i didn't know what had happened. mr. ball. then what did you do? mr. shields. well, givens run down here--right down here. mr. ball. he ran down here to this building? mr. shields. he ran down to the next corner. mr. ball. and what was the next corner? mr. shields. that was on elm and houston. mr. ball. did you come with him? mr. shields. no; i did not--he had me to stay there at the lot. mr. ball. and they all ran down there? mr. shields. yes. mr. ball. did you see givens again? mr. shields. yes; we came back to the building--he and tracey. mr. ball. then what did you do? mr. shields. we came back down to the texas school book depository building here and tried to get in the building and they wouldn't let no one in--he couldn't get in and i went on back to the warehouse. mr. ball. what did givens do? mr. shields. well, they came and got him because he was working here and i was at the warehouse. mr. ball. did you see him leave with the police? mr. shields. no; i didn't. i was at the warehouse and he had come here. mr. ball. i believe that's all. this will be written up and you will be asked to sign it and to make any corrections that you wish, you may make them in your own handwriting, and somebody will call you from the u.s. attorney's office and let you know when to come up. mr. shields. ok. mr. ball. thank you very much. mr. shields. ok. testimony of sam guinyard the testimony of sam guinyard was taken at : a.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. joseph a. ball, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. ball. will you stand up, sam, and hold up your right hand? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before the commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. guinyard. yes. mr. ball. will you state your name and address for the record? mr. guinyard. sam guinyard. mr. ball. that's [spelling] g-u-i-n-y-a-r-d, and what is your address--where do you live? mr. guinyard. south ervay street. mr. ball. where were you working on november , ? mr. guinyard. on east jefferson-- east jefferson. mr. ball. where is that? mr. guinyard. harris motor co. mr. ball. a used-car lot? mr. guinyard. yes. mr. ball. what kind of work were you doing? mr. guinyard. porter. mr. ball. how old are you, sam? mr. guinyard. i am . mr. ball. and where were you born? mr. guinyard. in ennis. mr. ball. ennis, tex.? mr. guinyard. yes. mr. ball. where did you go to school? mr. guinyard. ennis and hillsboro. mr. ball. and how far through school did you go? mr. guinyard. well, i got to the sixth grade. mr. ball. what have you done since then, what kind of work have you done mostly? mr. guinyard. compress work. mr. ball. what is that? mr. guinyard. press cotton--pressing cotton. mr. ball. when did you come to dallas? mr. guinyard. well, i have been back in dallas ever since . i lived in plainview about years. mr. ball. at--what kind of work have you done since you came to dallas? mr. guinyard. well, a porter in a carlot. mr. ball. a porter in a carlot? mr. guinyard. yes. mr. ball. have you ever been in any kind of trouble in your life? mr. guinyard. no, sir; nothing but a little poker fines that otherwise i paid and i got a couple of tickets in my life. mr. ball. now, on the day of november , , that's the day the president was killed, what were you doing? mr. guinyard. working there. mr. ball. and you heard about it, that he had been shot? didn't you? mr. guinyard. yes; at the time i did. mr. ball. what were you doing and where were you then when you heard that? mr. guinyard. in oak cliff at east jefferson. mr. ball. what were you doing? mr. guinyard. polishing and waxing a station wagon. mr. ball. and did something else happen that day that you remember? mr. guinyard. yes, sir. mr. ball. what? mr. guinyard. well, this was when oswald shot the policeman. mr. ball. tell me what you heard--i just want to know what you were doing and what you heard? mr. guinyard. well, he was about--i guess---- mr. ball. now, wait a minute, were you polishing cars when you heard something? mr. guinyard. when i heard a shot. mr. ball. you heard a noise? mr. guinyard. yes. mr. ball. and it sounded like shots? mr. guinyard. yes. mr. ball. how many? mr. guinyard. i heard three. mr. ball. where did the sound come from? mr. guinyard. right behind me, north of me--behind me. mr. ball. what street is north of you? mr. guinyard. tenth. mr. ball. you were on what street--your carlot faces what street? mr. guinyard. it faces jefferson and th. mr. ball. and th street is north? mr. guinyard. yes; and i was in the back--i was about half way right in the back. mr. ball. the cross street is patton street? mr. guinyard. yes. mr. ball. what did you do when you heard the shots? mr. guinyard. i raised up trying to see where they were coming from, where the sound was coming from. mr. ball. then what did you do? mr. guinyard. i was looking--trying to see and after i heard the third shot, then oswald came through on patton running--came right through the yard in front of the big white house--there's a big two-story white house--there's two of them there and he come through the one right on the corner of patton. mr. ball. could you see down to the corner of th and patton to the house? mr. guinyard. i seen him when he come between the two houses, come around in front of the last house to get on patton street to come out to jefferson. mr. ball. where were you when you saw this? mr. guinyard. where was i? mr. ball. yes. mr. guinyard. i was there at the back, right at the alley back there about as far from patton street as--about twice as far from here as to that window. mr. ball. then, you were about feet from patton street? mr. guinyard. yes, sir. mr. ball. so that you could look up patton street? mr. guinyard. yes. mr. ball. north on patton? mr. guinyard. yes. mr. ball. and you saw a man, did you? mr. guinyard. yes. mr. ball. what did you see him doing? mr. guinyard. he came through there running and knocking empty shells out of his pistol and he had it up just like this with his hand. mr. ball. with which hand? mr. guinyard. with his right hand; just kicking them out. mr. ball. he had it up? mr. guinyard. yes; he had it up just like this. mr. ball. how was he kicking them out? mr. guinyard. he was rolling them with his hand--with his thumb. mr. ball. rolling them with his thumb? mr. guinyard. checking them--he had the pistol up just like this [indicating]. mr. ball. did he use his left hand any? mr. guinyard. no; i never did see him use his left hand. mr. ball. he didn't? mr. guinyard. no, sir. mr. ball. and where was he with reference to the corner of patton and th when you saw him? mr. guinyard. where was he? mr. ball. yes. mr. guinyard. just as he come around the corner on patton, he cut through the yard and missed the corner on th and patton and cut through the yard. mr. ball. he cut through the yard of the house on the corner of th and patton? mr. guinyard. that's right. mr. ball. that would be the southeast corner, wouldn't it? mr. guinyard. the west--southwest corner--the southeast corner is where he started across, but he come out on patton on the southwest corner. mr. ball. in other words, when you first saw him he was cutting across the yard of the house on the southeast corner? mr. guinyard. yes, sir. mr. ball. that's the white house? mr. guinyard. yes; the big two-story white house. mr. ball. did he cross patton? mr. guinyard. no, sir; he come down patton until he got to about feet from the corner of jefferson and then he turned across and went across to the west corner on jefferson. mr. ball. what side of the street did you see him coming down on? mr. guinyard. he was on the left side--when he come down--it would be the east side. mr. ball. did you see mr. callaway there? mr. guinyard. we was together; yes, sir. mr. ball. you were together? mr. guinyard. yes, sir; he was at the front and i was at the back. mr. ball. you and callaway were standing at the alleyway? mr. guinyard. yes. mr. ball. the alleyway that runs along the north side of the lot? mr. guinyard. yes. mr. ball. now, where was oswald when he passed you going south toward jefferson? mr. guinyard. well, he was between the alley and the driveway coming off patton. mr. ball. and he was across the street from you, wasn't he? mr. guinyard. no; he was on this side of the street. mr. ball. you were on the east side of the street? mr. guinyard. yes, sir; and he was too--he was on the east side of the street until he got across our driveway and then he got onto the west side. mr. ball. how close was he to you when you saw him? mr. guinyard. i guess he was about feet from me--maybe. mr. ball. about feet? mr. guinyard. yes, sir. mr. ball. mr. callaway has told us and we measured it with a tape measure, that oswald was on the west side of the street, and we measured it and he figured it was about feet from him when he passed. mr. guinyard. well, he crossed over after he crossed the driveway. mr. ball. well---- mr. guinyard. mr. callaway followed him, you see, we was together--he was my boss at that time and he followed him. mr. ball. callaway? mr. guinyard. yes; trying to see which way was he going. mr. ball. and then, which way did he go after he got to jefferson? mr. guinyard. he went west on jefferson--on the right-hand side--going west. mr. ball. and what did callaway do? mr. guinyard. he turned around and run back to the street and we helped load the policeman in the ambulance. mr. ball. he ran back up to th street, did you say? mr. guinyard. yes. mr. ball. did you go with him? mr. guinyard. right with him. mr. ball. did you see a police car there? mr. guinyard. yes. mr. ball. what did you see besides the police car? mr. guinyard. the police that was laying down in the front of the car. mr. ball. a policeman? mr. guinyard. yes. mr. ball. was he dead or alive at that time? mr. guinyard. he looked like he was dead to me. mr. ball. what did you do? mr. guinyard. helped put him in the ambulance. mr. ball. you stayed there until the ambulance came? mr. guinyard. yes, sir. mr. ball. were you there when the truck came up that was driven by benavides? mr. guinyard. yes, sir. mr. ball. he came up right after this? mr. guinyard. yes; he came up from the east side--going west. mr. ball. and then what did you do after that? mr. guinyard. well, we stood there a while and talked and i called him donnie, he picked up all them empty hulls that come out of the gun. mr. ball. who did--benavides? mr. guinyard. yes. mr. ball. did you pick them up--any of them? mr. guinyard. he picked them up--i didn't pick them up--i was there with him. mr. ball. you were there? mr. guinyard. i was there with him. mr. ball. you were there when he picked them up? mr. guinyard. yes. mr. ball. where were they? mr. guinyard. laying across the yard as he kicked them out all around the sidewalk. mr. ball. were they anywhere near the bushes? mr. guinyard. no, sir; there was just this little old shrub that was in the yard just laying down through the yard--that little old shrub that was there. mr. ball. later that day, did you go down to the police department? mr. guinyard. yes, sir; i went down that night. mr. ball. that same night? mr. guinyard. yes. mr. ball. whom did you go down with? mr. guinyard. me and ted. mr. ball. you and who? mr. guinyard. ted--ted callaway. mr. ball. ted callaway? mr. guinyard. yes. mr. ball. and where did you go when you went to the police station? mr. guinyard. i went to the identifying office. mr. ball. you went into a place where there were police officers? mr. guinyard. yes, sir. mr. ball. and how did you identify him--tell me what happened to you, what you saw? mr. guinyard. well, i just saw him. mr. ball. well, were you in a big room? mr. guinyard. yes--in a big room. mr. ball. with police officers? mr. guinyard. yes, sir. mr. ball. and what did you see? mr. guinyard. i don't understand you. mr. ball. did you see some men up ahead of you? mr. guinyard. yes--four men. mr. ball. four men? mr. guinyard. yes--four men--handcuffed together. mr. ball. what did you say? mr. guinyard. they was handcuffed together. mr. ball. they was handcuffed? mr. guinyard. yes; all four of them. mr. ball. were they of different sizes? mr. guinyard. well, they was pretty close together--there wasn't much difference in size. mr. ball. in height--they were about the same? mr. guinyard. about the same. mr. ball. were they all about the same color? mr. guinyard. no, sir; they wasn't all about the same color. mr. ball. all about the same color? mr. guinyard. no, sir; they wasn't all about the same color. mr. ball. did you say anything to any police officer there after you saw them? mr. guinyard. i talked to one--with the detective--after he came out there. mr. ball. what did you tell him--i mean in this room--as you saw these four men up there? mr. guinyard. he just asked me reckon i could identify them and i said i sure could. mr. ball. what did you tell him? mr. guinyard. i just told him i sure could. mr. ball. what did you say to him about it? mr. guinyard. well, i didn't say anything--i was just waiting on them to bring them in. mr. ball. after they brought them in and after you looked at them, what did you tell the police officers? mr. guinyard. i told them that was him right there--i pointed him out right there. that was him right there. mr. ball. do you remember where he was standing in the lineup--what number he was? mr. guinyard. i don't know what his number was, but i can tell you where he was standing at. mr. ball. where was he standing? mr. guinyard. he was standing--the second man from the east side, and that lineup was this way [indicating] and he was the second man from that there end. mr. ball. and did you tell any police officer that you thought that was the man? mr. guinyard. yes, sir. mr. ball. whom did you tell; what police officer was it? mr. guinyard. i don't know his name. mr. ball. you don't know his name? mr. guinyard. no, sir; i don't know his name but i know him now if i would see him. mr. ball. before you went in there, did the police officers show you any pictures? mr. guinyard. no, sir. mr. ball. did the police officer say anything to you before you went in there? mr. guinyard. no, sir. mr. ball. did he say that he thought they had the man that killed the police officer? mr. guinyard. no, sir; he didn't tell me that. mr. ball. did you hear ted callaway say anything before you said you thought that was the man? mr. guinyard. no, sir. mr. ball. were you with ted at the time? mr. guinyard. yes, sir. mr. ball. how close was ted to you? mr. guinyard. oh--sitting about like that. mr. ball. you mean or feet away from you? mr. guinyard. yes; something like that. mr. ball. how was this man dressed that had the pistol in his hand? mr. guinyard. he had on a pair of black britches and a brown shirt and a little sort of light-gray-looking jacket. mr. ball. a gray jacket. mr. guinyard. yes; a light gray jacket and a white t-shirt. mr. ball. a white t-shirt? mr. guinyard. yes; a white t-shirt on under it. mr. ball. now, he had a light gray jacket on? mr. guinyard. and a brown shirt on. mr. ball. and a white t-shirt on? mr. guinyard. underneath it, because this brown shirt was open at the throat and the white t-shirt under it like this [indicating]. mr. ball. that's all i've got to examine you about now, except to show you these clothes, and they are upstairs. we will go up now and take a look at them. (at this time counsel ball, the witness guinyard and the reporter oliver left the deposing room on the third floor of the federal building and resumed in a deposing room on the fourth floor of the federal building and the deposition proceedings continued as follows:) mr. ball. sam, i'll show you an exhibit here, which is a piece of clothing and which is marked commission exhibit no. . have you ever seen this before? mr. guinyard. yes, sir. mr. ball. when and where? mr. guinyard. in oak cliff. mr. ball. did you ever see anybody wearing it? mr. guinyard. yes, sir. mr. ball. who? mr. guinyard. oswald. mr. ball. where? mr. guinyard. oak cliff. mr. ball. tell me a little more about it. mr. guinyard. in oak cliff and down in the courtroom. mr. ball. where? mr. guinyard. down in the examining room. mr. ball. when this man came down patton street toward jefferson with his gun, you have mentioned he had a shirt on? mr. guinyard. yes, sir. mr. ball. you described that shirt as a brown shirt? mr. guinyard. yes. mr. ball. does this look anything like the shirt? mr. guinyard. it looks just like it does. mr. ball. you saw that shirt before? mr. guinyard. yes. mr. ball. where? mr. guinyard. down at the city hall. mr. ball. at the police station? mr. guinyard. yes. mr. ball. and what did you tell them when they showed you this shirt? mr. guinyard. i told them that that's the shirt he had on. mr. ball. now, the next exhibit here is commission exhibit no. ; have you ever seen this before? mr. guinyard. that's the jacket. mr. ball. this is a gray jacket? mr. guinyard. yes; that's the gray jacket. mr. ball. it has a zipper on it? mr. guinyard. yes. mr. ball. you say that's the jacket? mr. guinyard. yes; that he had on in oak cliff when he passed the lot. mr. ball. that the man with the pistol had on? mr. guinyard. yes, sir. mr. ball. i have no further questions for you, sam, and i thank you for coming down, and you can go home now. mr. guinyard. thank you. affidavit of lt. j. c. day the following affidavit was executed by lt. j. c. day on may , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy state of texas, _county of dallas, ss_: before me, mary rattan, a notary public in and for said county, state of texas, on this day personally appeared lt. j. c. day, dallas police department, who, after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says: when testifying before the president's commission, i stated i did not remember who returned the two spent . hulls and envelope to my possession on the night of november , . since returning to dallas detective c. n. dhority has called my attention to the fact he brought the three hulls in the envelope to me and asked me to check them again for fingerprints even though i had checked them when they were picked up on the sixth floor of the texas school book depository about : p.m. november , by detective r. m. sims and myself and placed in a manila envelope. since talking to dhority i remember now that he was the one who returned the shells to me about : p.m. and stated that his office wanted to retain one. he left me two shells and the envelope that detective sims and i had previously marked. it was then that i scratched my name on the two shells that were released at : p.m. to agent vince drain along with the rifle and other evidence. signed this th day of may . (s) j. c. day, j. c. day. affidavit of lt. j. c. day the following affidavit was executed by lt. j. c. day on june , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy state of texas, _county of dallas, ss_: before me, mary rattan, a notary public in and for said county, state of texas, on this day personally appeared lt. j. c. day, dallas police department, who, after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says: the following affidavit is made to clear up confusion regarding the three spent . hulls, commission numbers , , and , found by the th floor window of the texas school book depository on november , . the hulls were picked up by detective r. m. sims and lieutenant j. c. day and placed in an envelope. detective r. l. studebaker was also present. the envelope was marked and dated by sims and day. detective sims took the hulls after they were checked for fingerprints by day. the third hull, commission number , was later released directly to the fbi by the dallas police department homicide division. at : p.m. november , , detective c. n. dhority brought the three hulls in the marked envelope back to lieutenant day in the identification bureau office to recheck for prints. dhority retained one hull, commission number and left the other two, commission numbers , along with the envelope with me to be sent to the fbi. vince drain, fbi agent, took custody at : a.m. the same day. when i appeared before the commission april , , i could not find my name on one of the hulls, identified as commission number , and thought this was the hull that had been retained by dhority. on june , , the three hulls, commission numbers , , and , were back in dallas and were examined by captain g. m. doughty and myself at the local fbi office. close examination with a magnifying glass under a good light disclosed that my name "day" was on all three hulls, at the small end. also gd for captain george doughty was on two of them. commission numbers and were the first two sent to washington on november , . they have doughty's initials where he marked the hulls as they were released to vince drain at : p.m. on november , by doughty and day. the third hull, commission number , does not have doughty's mark, but is plainly marked "day". in washington, i had numbers and switched because i didn't find my name on number . i can identify commission numbers , , and from my name on them, as the three hulls found on the sixth floor of the texas school book depository on november , . as to the time i scratched my name on the hulls, i do not remember whether it was at the window when picked up or at : p.m. november , , when they were returned to me by dhority in the marked envelope. it had to be one or the other, because this is the only time i had all three hulls in my possession. both detective r. l. studebaker and detective r. m. sims, who were present at the window when the hulls were picked up, state i marked them as they were found under the window. signed this d day of june . (s) j. c. day, j. c. day. affidavit of thomas j. kelley the following affidavit was executed by thomas j. kelley on june , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy city of washington, _district of columbia, ss_: i, thomas j. kelley, being first duly sworn do upon oath depose and state: i am an inspector in the united states secret service assigned to secret service headquarters in washington, d.c. on november , , i was not in the city of dallas at the time of the assassination of president john f. kennedy. i was instructed through deputy chief paul paterni to go to dallas directly from lexington, kentucky, where i had been engaged in a special assignment and arrived on friday evening in dallas at approximately : p.m. i attended a total of four interviews with lee harvey oswald, all of which were held in the office of captain j. w. fritz of the homicide bureau of the dallas police department. three of these interviews occurred on november and the fourth on november . (prior to my arrival in dallas, oswald had been interrogated on november .) subsequent to these interviews i dictated summaries from my notes of the subject matter discussed and these dictated summaries were transmitted to chief james j. rowley on november and december , . copies of these written summaries are attached to this affidavit as exhibit a and incorporated by reference herein and made a part hereof. the summary of my last interview with oswald which occurred on sunday, november , , was the first portion of a four-page memorandum which included in addition to the report of the interview, my report on the circumstances immediately following the murder of lee harvey oswald. i hereby certify that the attached memoranda constitute my total written memoranda of the interviews with lee harvey oswald at which i was present. i have no additional recollection at this time which i can add to the attached memoranda. i further certify that these memoranda accurately summarize my notes and recollections from these interviews. dated this st day of june . (s) thomas j. kelley, thomas j. kelley. affidavit of j. w. fritz the following affidavit was executed by j. w. fritz on june , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy state of texas, _county of dallas, ss._: before me, mary rattan, a notary public in and for said county, state of texas, on this day personally appeared j. w. fritz, dallas police department, who, after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says: i wish to supplement the evidence given by me on wednesday, april , , before the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy, as follows: _the spent rifle hulls_ three spent rifle hulls were found under the window in the southeast corner of the th floor of the texas school book depository building, dallas, texas, on the afternoon of november , . when the officers called me to this window, i asked them not to move the shells nor touch them until lt. day of the dallas police department could make pictures of the hulls showing where they fell after being ejected from the rifle. after the pictures were made, detective r. m. sims of the homicide bureau, who was assisting in the search of the building, brought the three empty hulls to my office. these were delivered to me in my office at the police headquarters. i kept the hulls in an envelope in my possession and later turned them over to c. n. dhority of the homicide bureau and instructed him to take them to lt. day of the identification bureau. i told detective dhority that after these hulls were checked for prints to leave two of them to be delivered to the fbi and to bring one of them to my office to be used for comparison tests here in the office, as we were trying to find where the cartridges had been bought. when detective dhority returned from the identification bureau, he returned the one empty hull which i kept in my possession. several days later, i believe on the night of november , vince drain of the fbi called me at home about one o'clock in the morning and said that the commission wanted the other empty hull and a notebook that belonged to oswald. i came to the office and delivered these things to the fbi. we have mr. james p. hosty's receipt for these items in our report. _reference to the testimony of roger craig_ i don't remember the name roger craig, but i do remember a man coming into my outer office and i remember one of my officers calling me outside the door of my private office. i talked to this man for a minute or two, and he started telling me a story about seeing oswald leaving the building. i don't remember all the things that this man said, but i turned him over to lt. baker who talked to him. lee harvey oswald was in my office at this time. i don't remember anything about lee harvey oswald jumping up or making any remarks or gestures to this man or to me at this time, and had i brought this officer into my inner office i feel sure that i would remember it. there were other officers in my inner office at the time, and i have found no one who knows about the remarks that you have asked about. signed this th day of june . (s) j. w. fritz, j. w. fritz. testimony of mrs. mary jane robertson the testimony of mrs. mary jane robertson was taken at : p.m., on may , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. leon d. hubert, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. hubert. this is the deposition of mrs. mary jane robertson. mrs. robertson. right. mr. hubert. mrs. robertson, my name is leon d. hubert, and i am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel on the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy. under the provisions of executive order , dated november , , the joint resolution of congress no. , and the rules of procedure adopted by the president's commission in conformance with the executive order and the joint resolution, i have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you. i state to you now that the general nature of the commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relevant to the assassination of president kennedy and the subsequent violent death of lee harvey oswald. in particular, as to you, mrs. robertson, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. now, mrs. robertson, i believe that you appear here today by virtue of a general request made to you by mr. j. lee rankin, general counsel of the president's commission, in a letter addressed by him to chief curry, asking chief curry to request that you come here. under the rules adopted by the commission, you are entitled to a -day written notice prior to the taking of this deposition, but the rules adopted also provide that a witness may waive this -day notice if he sees fit to do so. now, i must first ask you if you wish to receive the -day notice, or whether you are willing to waive it? mrs. robertson. i am quite willing to. mr. hubert. will you rise then, and raise your right hand so that i may administer the oath? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mrs. robertson. yes; i do. mr. hubert. will you please state your full name, please, ma'am? mrs. robertson. my name is mary jane robertson or mrs. jim g. robertson, as i go by. mr. hubert. what is your present residence address? mrs. robertson. lacewood, l-a-c-e-w-o-o-d [spelling] drive, in dallas, of course. mr. hubert. and your occupation? mrs. robertson. i am classified as a clerk-typist with the city civil service. mr. hubert. that's dallas? mrs. robertson. yes--dallas--and i work in the special service bureau of the dallas police department. mr. hubert. in other words, you are a civil service employee but assigned to the dallas police department? mrs. robertson. right. mr. hubert. how long have you been so assigned? mrs. robertson. just about a year and a half--october the st i started to work there, so just about a year and a half. mr. hubert. now, were you there on friday, november , ? mrs. robertson. yes. mr. hubert. the day the president was killed? mrs. robertson. yes; i certainly was. mr. hubert. do you remember what time you went to work there and what time you left? mrs. robertson. yes; at that time i was coming to work at : and leaving at : --those were my hours. mr. hubert. at : in the morning? mrs. robertson. at : in the morning and leaving at : in the afternoon. now, as to the exact time i left that afternoon, i cannot tell you to the minute because, well, further on in the testimony you will probably want to ask, but jack revill, lieutenant revill, asked me to take a letter for him, the exact time of which i cannot tell you, but i do remember this very well--my husband had a vacation. he had been on a hunting trip and he was at home, so when jack asked me to write this letter i went in and phoned home and i said, "i might run just a few minutes late because i don't know if this will be a long letter or a short letter, or what it will consist of," and i did have the car, and ordinarily i would have been home, say, leaving the office at : , in or minutes, you know, but i did get home more or less around o'clock--which was the usual time. i mean, i didn't run, you know, real late or anything, but that part--i definitely remember, and my husband does, too. mr. hubert. and the letter of lt. jack revill you just talked about was the thing that caused you to be delayed? mrs. robertson. that was what i stayed to write--yes. mr. hubert. and that is a fact? mrs. robertson. that is a fact. mr. hubert. so, that was the last thing you did that day? mrs. robertson. yes; when i completed the letter. mr. hubert. normally, you would have left at : ? mrs. robertson. yes; and i am saying that i didn't run too much after : --the point of it--now, exactly what time i started on that--i don't know. mr. hubert. normally, how long would it take you to get to your home from your office? mrs. robertson. well, you see, if i leave at : i make a little better time than if you wait until : because the more traffic starts then, and it's hard to say exactly, but i go on the freeway, and it's probably minutes and if it's heavy traffic probably --you know what i mean? mr. hubert. would it be fair to state, then, that you probably left at about : ? mrs. robertson. i would assume so. now, i'm not saying to the very minute or anything like that, but i am saying that approximately--if it was after o'clock, it was very shortly after when i got in the car, you know, i did not run what you would call late by hours or so. mr. hubert. now, i'm going to show you two documents, but i want to identify them with reference to your deposition, so i am marking a document which has been already identified as commission exhibit no. , as follows: "dallas, texas, may , , exhibit no. , of the deposition of mrs. mary jane robertson," and i am signing my name below that, all of which appears in the left margin, and i am doing precisely the same to the other document, which bears the identification, commission exhibit no. , except that i am marking this as exhibit no. of the deposition of mary jane robertson, signing my name to that. now, mrs. robertson, i would ask you to look at exhibit no. and exhibit no. which are identified and ask you if that is the letter to which you have previously referred as having been written or typed by you for lieutenant revill? mrs. robertson. i didn't this--because i know nothing about this down here [indicating]. mr. hubert. you are pointing to exhibit no. and you are covering with your hand the affidavit portion? mrs. robertson. yes. mr. hubert. you say you know nothing about that? mrs. robertson. no. mr. hubert. the letter itself, you have noticed that they are actually identical, one appears to be an original and the other a copy? mrs. robertson. that's right--i was trying to see if there was a difference. mr. hubert. do you remember writing these letters yourself? mrs. robertson. why, yes; i wrote them. mr. hubert. is there anything on the letter that identifies you as having written them, i mean like the usual little marks put on the letter by a stenographer? mrs. robertson. no; that's something i always do, but what i mean, the state of confusion--well--i'm sure you can't have a conception of the state of confusion that office was in--our main secretary was out, she had a dental appointment and she had left earlier that morning, there were only two girls in the office and the two deskmen. mr. hubert. well, you do identify the letter? mrs. robertson. definitely--i identify the letter. mr. hubert. you identify it from the sense of it or what? mrs. robertson. well, this is something that i did not memorize verbatim, and could not have repeated--what i mean--per word, but i could have told you the general gist of the letter, is what i mean, yes--the actual facts. mr. hubert. was it dictated to you? mrs. robertson. lieutenant revill came in and said, "mary jane, i would like for you to take a letter," and like i said, our stenographer was out of the office on an appointment, and i said, "of course, now, jack, this has been a hard day and you know i don't take shorthand and if you will be patient with me and let me write it out in longhand, i will be happy to do it for you." that is when i made my phone call home, and so he said, "well, you take your time," and he said, "i know you don't take shorthand and that's quite all right," and i had him even spell such names so as to be certain of--you know--the agent's name and all like that. he sat across the desk from me, as we are doing here. mr. hubert. in other words, it was written out in your hand? mrs. robertson. yes; now, jack, as i remember--i speak of him, we are very informal in our office, as lieutenant revill--lieutenant revill, as i recall, did have several papers or rough drafts that possibly he had written out or something, but he did speak verbally to me and i wrote in my own handwriting and i used a shorthand notebook. i wrote in my own handwriting. mr. hubert. and then you used your own handwriting for the purpose of writing the letter? mrs. robertson. that's correct. mr. hubert. what did you do with your own handwriting notes? mrs. robertson. anything like that i always take and i tear up and put in the wastebasket. mr. hubert. and you think that's what happened here? mrs. robertson. well, i'm certain it did. mr. hubert. but you don't know the existence of those notes now, is what i am getting at? mrs. robertson. no, sir. mr. hubert. do you know how many copies you made? mrs. robertson. there again, i could not swear to you under oath exactly. ordinarily we make an original and five. now, whether lieutenant revill just might have said that an original and three will be enough, i cannot tell you. mr. hubert. you don't know how many you made? mrs. robertson. no--i cannot--i absolutely do not remember that. mr. hubert. but the normal practice would have been to make more than one copy? mrs. robertson. more than the original? mr. hubert. more than the original and one copy--normally you would write the original and how many copies? mrs. robertson. now, by this going to the captain that is not necessarily so. anything we address to the chief we would have definitely more than one carbon copy, but for little instances like that, i cannot remember--lieutenant revill just might have said "an original and one will be enough." mr. hubert. do you recall that he did say so? mrs. robertson. i do not--absolutely. mr. hubert. and you don't really know how many you did make? mrs. robertson. i cannot tell you--i cannot remember. mr. hubert. when the letter was finished, what happened to it? mrs. robertson. i called lieutenant revill, as well as i can remember, i called him into my office. now, i might have gone into his office, but i took it directly to him. i waited and let him read it and let him proof it over to see it and i know he questioned me--he said, "are you sure this is the correct way to spell assassination?" and i said, "yes, sir; i looked it up in the dictionary," and he read the letter and then as i remember, i got my personal belongings together and i left the building then. mr. hubert. so, you handed the original and copy or copies to him? mrs. robertson. directly to lieutenant revill. mr. hubert. and you don't know what he did with it, to your own knowledge? mrs. robertson. oh, no; i left the building. mr. hubert. do you know anything about what the figures in the lower right-hand corner on exhibit , that is to say, commission exhibit no. , mean? mrs. robertson. yes; i do. mr. hubert. what do they mean? mrs. robertson. the captain has files of copies and that is his own, and his own personal file. in fact, he gave me a letter, a photostat, which he said it would be quite all right to show that that is his own and that that appears on his file, you know what i mean, the way he has it set up. mr. hubert. you are talking about what? mrs. robertson. the o- is what i'm talking about. mr. hubert. now, you are showing me a document that is exactly the same actually, it seems to be a photostatic copy of exhibits nos. and , that you have just testified to. mrs. robertson. that's right, this is in the captain's files. mr. hubert. this is from the captain's flies and in the left-hand side it shows "wpg"? mrs. robertson. that's capt. w. p. gannaway. mr. hubert. and then over on the right-hand side it has "o- " and you say that those are his initials on the left-hand side, and on the right-hand side is what, that is his indexing? mrs. robertson. correct--this is not in the outside file or anything, it's in the captain's office. mr. hubert. would that indicate that there is another copy other than the two that you have just testified to, being commission exhibits nos. and ? mrs. robertson. well, sir, will you phrase that again, i don't understand it? mr. hubert. well, you will notice that in commission exhibits nos. and , both of which have been identified, respectively, as exhibits nos. and for this deposition, do not have on the left-hand side the initials of captain gannaway. now, it could be that this document you have just showed me is another copy or another photostat initialed? mrs. robertson. sir, i don't know. he called me in his office yesterday and handed me the letter and i read it. i said, "yes, captain gannaway, this is the letter. i assume i typed it because this is the contents of the letter that i typed." mr. hubert. and you remembered it? mrs. robertson. yes; so he handed it to me and he said, "well, take this along," and he said, "this, of course, mary jane, you well know----" mr. hubert. you are talking about the "o- "? mrs. robertson. the o- , i don't ask questions, but i mean, he has a file, of course, of the documents pertaining to this and so he said, "would you return the letter to me when you return from taking your deposition?" mr. hubert. he didn't authorize you to let me have this letter that you have just showed me? mrs. robertson. no; he did not. mr. hubert. well, as i said before, i think you will agree with me that this letter seems to be exactly the same as the other two, with the exception that on the one that you have produced there are in the left-hand corner, the initials wpg, which you say you identify as being the initials of captain gannaway? mrs. robertson. that's correct. mr. hubert. can you tell us anything about the other markings and symbols on the bottom of commission exhibit no. ? i refer first to seemingly a rubber stamp in a square called "indexed date - - " and the initial "s." can you tell me what that means? mrs. robertson. i have no idea in the world, sir. i have never seen a stamp like that. mr. hubert. and then below that, the initials "int," this being in writing, and then " - ," do you know what that means? mrs. robertson. i have no idea. now, there again is our o- , which would be in our captain's files. now, whether this is something pertaining--i do not know whether this is something pertaining to his files only, this subject matter. mr. hubert. but in any case, from your own knowledge, except for the o- , as to which you have already testified, the rubber stamp and the other figures in the lower right-hand corner in exhibit no. in this deposition, being commission exhibit no. , as to those you know nothing about? mrs. robertson. i know nothing, sir. once i handed the letter to lieutenant revill, then i never saw the letter again until i was called into the captain's office yesterday. i remember it in my mind, but as far as seeing the actual document, i had not seen the actual document, i mean a copy of it or anything. mr. hubert. do you think it would be possible for you to call captain gannaway and see if he would give you authority to let me have that copy that you have shown us or perhaps take a photostat of it; can you do that? mrs. robertson. yes; i will do that. mr. hubert. suppose we take a few minutes recess, then, and you call captain gannaway and ask him if we might have that copy. mrs. robertson. all right; i will. (at this point the proceedings of the deposition of mrs. robertson were recessed, during which time mrs. robertson made the call heretofore referred to, and the proceedings were continued as hereinafter shown.) mr. hubert. mrs. robertson, you have attempted to reach captain gannaway to see if he could give you permission to either let me have a photocopy made of this letter which you showed me, or else have a copy of that made, but at the moment you have not been able to reach him. suppose we do this. i have already asked you all the questions that i would ask you about the document, and suppose we do it this way--that if you do secure permission to give it to me, then when it is delivered at a later time today or at the latest, tomorrow, i will mark it as exhibit no. of your deposition, do you understand? mrs. robertson. yes. mr. hubert. by simply writing my name and the date and then all of the testimony which you have previously given as to that document heretofore, but which did not refer to a numbered exhibit will apply to exhibit no. ; is that all right? do you understand what i mean? mrs. robertson. yes--i see--i understand what you mean. mr. hubert. now, i understand that captain gannaway, from what you told me, called you in yesterday and spoke to you about this. has anyone else spoken to you about this recently, at any time? mrs. robertson. no, captain--i assume it was from this letter that was addressed to the chief requiring my testimony on this--the captain just said i was needed and that i had a choice of thursday or friday and which would be more convenient? mr. hubert. yes; i understand, and then he asked you if you remembered it? mrs. robertson. he asked me first if i remembered the letter, and i said, "yes, very well," and i repeated the gist of the contents to him. mr. hubert. that was the only time anyone had spoken to you about the letter? mrs. robertson. well, when lieutenant revill went to washington, i believe, he went a matter of a week or weeks ago and he said at that time when he came back, when he returned from washington, he said, "mary jane, you know they may need your testimony on it," and i said, "well, that's fine. i certainly remember the day, and i certainly remember the incident," and other than that there has been no discussion. mr. hubert. and there is no doubt in your mind that it was written, as you say, on the afternoon of november , approximately between the hours of and : p.m.? mrs. robertson. i would say that it was written more between--yes--about then, because i was thinking from the--actually the time he started giving it to me and all that--actually the typing and waiting for him to proofread it and all like that--that i am sure--because i went directly home to my family and told my husband that i had typed the letter. mr. hubert. and there can be no doubt about it being november , either? mrs. robertson. no doubt in the world. mrs. hubert. all right, mrs. robertson, thank you very much. as soon as you find out from captain gannaway, perhaps you can arrange some way to get the document delivered? mrs. robertson. shall i personally have to deliver that to you, or can it be sent by one of the officers? is there a requirement about it? mr. hubert. just so that it is identified more particularly with your testimony, if you get permission to hand me that document, or deliver it in person, that's all that will be necessary. mrs. robertson. well, i'm quite sure the captain will not object. mr. hubert. if you want to send it over, i would like you to place your name on it just so that we will know it is the document we are talking about, because after all, this is going to be read by people later, and we know what we are talking about, but we must make it clear that others will know from the whole record what it is. mrs. robertson. i see, sir. mr. hubert. thank you, very much, and i appreciate your assistance. mrs. robertson. all right. testimony of lyndal l. shaneyfelt the testimony of lyndal l. shaneyfelt was taken at : p.m., on june , , at maryland avenue ne., washington, d.c., by mr. melvin aron eisenberg, assistant counsel of the president's commission. (the oath was administered by the reporter.) mr. shaneyfelt. i do. mr. eisenberg. could you state your full name, mr. shaneyfelt? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; lyndal l. shaneyfelt. mr. eisenberg. and you have testified before the commission in this proceeding before? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; i have. mr. eisenberg. we will not rehearse your qualifications again, since you have already been accepted as an expert in the field in which you are going to be questioned today. mr. shaneyfelt, i hand you a photograph marked shaneyfelt exhibit no. , consisting of a photograph of lee harvey oswald holding a rifle, and i ask you whether you prepared that photograph? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; i did. mr. eisenberg. is this a photograph of an existing commission exhibit? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; this is a copy of the small photograph that is a part of commission exhibit no. . mr. eisenberg. that would be -a? mr. shaneyfelt. i don't recall whether it is a or b. mr. eisenberg. i hand you photographs of commission exhibits nos. -a and -b and ask if this serves to refresh your recollection as to whether shaneyfelt exhibit no. is a photograph of -a or -b? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; shaneyfelt exhibit no. is a copy of the commission exhibit no. -a. mr. eisenberg. now, mr. shaneyfelt, i hand you the cover of life magazine, issue of february , , which i have labeled shaneyfelt exhibit no. , and i ask you if this is a photograph which you have previously examined in connection with earlier testimony given by you to the commission? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. i hand you page of the same issue of life, which is labeled shaneyfelt exhibit no. , and i ask you the same question, that is, whether this is the photograph you have previously discussed in connection with earlier testimony? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; it is. mr. eisenberg. now, for the record, i am using duplicate originals rather than the actual exhibits, because the actual exhibits are now being printed up by the government printing office. mr. shaneyfelt, i hand you the front page of the detroit free press, issue of february , , containing a picture similar to shaneyfelt exhibit no. , and the other pictures thus far referred to--and i am labeling this detroit free press page shaneyfelt exhibit no. --and ask you whether you have examined the picture of lee harvey oswald and a rifle appearing on that exhibit? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; i have. mr. eisenberg. did you compare this picture with -a or shaneyfelt exhibit no. , your reproduction of -a? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; i did. mr. eisenberg. what was your conclusion on the basis of that comparison? mr. shaneyfelt. i found that the reproduction of the photograph of oswald holding the gun on shaneyfelt exhibit no. has insufficient detail to warrant positive identification as being the same photograph as shaneyfelt exhibit no. . however, i did find that the photograph in the newspaper, exhibit no. , is consistent in all respects with the photograph which is exhibit no. , except for variations in retouching that are a normal part of the process of making halftone reproductions from photographs for newspapers. i further found that there was nothing in these photographs to indicate that they are other than the same photograph. mr. eisenberg. now, when you say that the only variations appear to be variations in retouching, that would be based on the conclusion that they were the same photograph, is that correct? mr. shaneyfelt. yes. mr. eisenberg. could you describe those variations which are apparently due to retouching, mr. shaneyfelt? mr. shaneyfelt. yes. there is an area to the right of oswald's head and shoulder, to my left as i look at the photograph, that has been airbrushed or otherwise altered, to intensify the outline of the shoulder, which would be oswald's shoulder. in addition there is retouching around the stock of the rifle, and along the other portions of the rifle where it crosses oswald's body, that has been added to intensify the detail in that portion of the photograph. mr. eisenberg. when you say "around the stock," could you specify as to whether you mean the top, bottom, end, or all three or any two of those boundaries? mr. shaneyfelt. in shaneyfelt exhibit no. there is retouching on both the top and bottom and butt of the stock, and also a highlight running along the top of the gun from the bolt forward toward the muzzle. there is an additional highlight along the bottom of the gun just forward of the trigger assembly between the trigger assembly and the hand. mr. eisenberg. now, there is a highlight on shaneyfelt exhibit no. running near the top of the barrel or receiver, is that correct--terminating at oswald's left hand? mr. shaneyfelt. yes. mr. eisenberg. what is the relation between the highlight at the top of the barrel or receiver in shaneyfelt exhibit no. and the highlight just referred to in shaneyfelt exhibit no. ? mr. shaneyfelt. in exhibit no. , that highlight along the bolt of the gun is in two parts, and the highlight in the photograph or the reproduction of the photograph, exhibit no. , is a continuous highlight. mr. eisenberg. is it your opinion that the highlight in shaneyfelt exhibit no. is based upon the highlight in shaneyfelt exhibit no. ? mr. shaneyfelt. yes. mr. eisenberg. but it differs, at least, in that it makes a continuous highlight where none appears in shaneyfelt exhibit no. , is that your testimony? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. now, in shaneyfelt exhibit no. , a telescopic sight is apparent on the rifle, and no such sight is apparent in shaneyfelt exhibit no. . do you have any opinion as to the reason for the lack of a sight appearing on shaneyfelt exhibit no. ? mr. shaneyfelt. yes. mr. eisenberg. could you give that opinion? mr. shaneyfelt. i believe that the sight does not appear in the reproduction of the photograph on shaneyfelt exhibit no. , because it was not retouched to intensify the detail of the sight, and, therefore was lost in the engraving process. i do not believe that there was any retouching over the sight in order to purposely obliterate it from the reproduction in exhibit no. . mr. eisenberg. now, is there generally a loss of detail in reproduction of illustrations appearing in newspapers, mr. shaneyfelt? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; there is. this is apparent in other areas of this photograph when compared with shaneyfelt exhibit no. , in areas of oswald's shirt, where wrinkling appears in exhibit no. , and is lost in the reproduction. also, the wrinkles in the dark areas of the trousers are not reproduced in the halftone process, but this detail is lost by the process. mr. eisenberg. what is this halftone process which you mention? mr. shaneyfelt. this is the halftone process by which a continuous tone photograph, such as exhibit no. , is photographed through a screen so that it can be broken up into a dot pattern of black dots on a white background and white dots on a black background to give the appearance of a continuous tone in the printed newspaper reproduction. and this is the only means by which a continuous-tone photograph can be reproduced. mr. eisenberg. why is it called a halftone process? mr. shaneyfelt. i don't really know the answer but i would assume that it is because it gives you the tones in between black and white, or the halftones. mr. eisenberg. now, a loss of detail is inherent in this process, is it? mr. shaneyfelt. that is true, particularly in regard to newspaper reproductions, where a relatively coarse screen is used in making the halftone. in a magazine publication, where a higher quality of printing is used, and a better quality of paper is used, it is possible to use a finer screen and thereby retain a greater amount of the detail. mr. eisenberg. now, referring once more to the highlight running along the top of the weapon, and terminating at oswald's left hand in shaneyfelt exhibit no. ; when you compare this exhibit with shaneyfelt exhibit no. , does it appear that that highlight actually runs along the top of the weapon? mr. shaneyfelt. in the reproduction of the photograph on exhibit no. , the impression is given that the highlight is along the top of the rifle, because you see no additional detail above that highlight along the top of the gun. mr. eisenberg. now, if you compare that with shaneyfelt exhibit no. , where a similar highlight appears, does that highlight actually denote the top of the weapon, or is any detail above the highlight apparent in shaneyfelt exhibit no. ? mr. shaneyfelt. on shaneyfelt exhibit no. , the highlight does not denote the top of the weapon. there is detail present that shows other areas of the gun, the breech, above the highlight. mr. eisenberg. now, would you say then that detail of the weapon itself, that is, the upper part of the weapon, had been lost along with detail representing the telescopic sight? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. bringing your attention back to shaneyfelt exhibits nos. and , which are the life photographs, how did these photographs compare with shaneyfelt exhibit no. , the detroit free press photograph? mr. shaneyfelt. the primary difference is in the retouching. in the area above and behind oswald's right shoulder, the background has been retouched out on exhibit no. , the detroit free press. in the life magazine reproduction, exhibit no. , the background has been left in, and the retouching has been added to the shirt area around the right shoulder to enhance the detail along in that area. the life magazine reproduction, exhibit no. , also has retouching around the scope of the rifle in order that it will not blend into the dark shirt that oswald was wearing and thus be lost in the reproduction process; this has not been done in exhibit no. . the retouching along the top of the rifle stock is generally similar, in that it is in a straight line from the butt of the stock to the bolt. however, exhibit no. has a different type of retouching along the end or butt of the stock and the bottom of the stock or the lower edge of the stock between the butt and the trigger guard. highlights along the top and bottom of the breech area are different in exhibit no. than in exhibit no. . there is a dark shadow between the legs of oswald that is about halfway between the knee and the crotch that has been left in the reproduction of exhibit no. , but has been retouched out of the life magazine reproduction, exhibit no. . these are the primary variations in the retouching on the two exhibits. mr. eisenberg. does the highlight running at or near the top of the receiver or barrel in the bolt area show a continuous or an intermittent form in commission exhibit no. ? mr. shaneyfelt. commission exhibit no. shows a break in the highlight along the bolt, and is reproduced very close to the original photograph, which is exhibit no. . in fact, this area was probably not retouched, or this highlight was probably not retouched, for the life magazine reproduction. mr. eisenberg. now, you also mentioned that the retouching along the stock was different when shaneyfelt exhibit no. is compared with shaneyfelt exhibit no. . could you go into a little bit of detail on that difference? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; i mentioned that the highlight along the top from the butt to the bolt is generally similar in that it is in a straight line. although the rifle itself is actually curved along that area, they both have been retouched in a relatively straight line along the top edge of the stock. there has been a white or light line added along the butt of the stock where it crosses oswald's leg in exhibit no. and this has not been done in exhibit no. . in addition, a white outline has been drawn in along the bottom edge of the stock as it runs from the butt to the trigger guard in exhibit no. . this has not been done in exhibit no. . mr. eisenberg. now, mr. shaneyfelt, when retouching is effected, is it performed on a negative or on a print? mr. shaneyfelt. retouching for newspaper reproduction is almost always done on the print. mr. eisenberg. and what about magazine reproductions? mr. shaneyfelt. this would also be true of magazine reproductions. mr. eisenberg. and would that explain how shaneyfelt exhibits nos. and could differ from each other, even though they were apparently both taken from the same print, originally from the same print, of which shaneyfelt exhibit no. is a photograph? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; that would explain the difference. mr. eisenberg. that is--could you go into detail on that? could you elaborate that answer? by what process would the result of a reproduction of the same print differ, as reproduced in two different media or two different magazines or newspapers? mr. shaneyfelt. well, the primary variation would be in the retouching that has been added. different publications and different retouch artists would handle a photograph differently, and add different retouching to them. therefore, these would be the main variations which you would have between two different reproductions. in addition there can also be differences in the quality of the engraving, as there are differences in quality of many things. a newspaper reproduction is made with a coarser screen and gives less detail than a magazine reproduction that uses a finer screen and, therefore, reproduces more detail. these are some of the basic things that would affect these reproductions and make variations in the reproductions. mr. eisenberg. now, mr. shaneyfelt, i hand you page of newsweek magazine, issue of march , , also containing a photograph like those we have been examining, and this is marked shaneyfelt exhibit no. , and i ask you whether you have examined that photograph? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; i have. mr. eisenberg. can you give us your conclusions, please? mr. shaneyfelt. i found that the photograph reproduced in the newsweek magazine, issue of march , , which has been marked as shaneyfelt exhibit no. , is the same in all general characteristics as the photograph that has been marked as commission exhibit no. -a, and i found no differences to suggest that it is other than the same photograph---- mr. eisenberg. yes? mr. shaneyfelt. except for variations in retouching. mr. eisenberg. i take it that your testimony concerning shaneyfelt exhibits nos. and is that due to some loss of detail it is impossible to say that these photographs are identical to shaneyfelt exhibit no. --or rather exhibit no. -a, on which shaneyfelt exhibit no. is based--in the same way you can say that a fingerprint is identical to a given fingerprint impression; is that correct? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. i was not able to positively identify them, because of this loss of detail. mr. eisenberg. what is your opinion as to the probability that they are identical, bearing in mind that it is impossible to make an absolute unqualified determination of identity? mr. shaneyfelt. they may very well be identical since i found no significant differences other than the retouching. mr. eisenberg. is there much doubt in your mind? mr. shaneyfelt. very little. mr. eisenberg. apart from the factors which have been mentioned so far as apparently due to retouching, and those factors which you have not yet discussed but will, was there any difference between the reproductions and the original, between the apparent reproductions and the original? that is, was lighting the same, position, and so forth? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; i found them to be the same in all of these general characteristics as to lighting and position of hands and position of body, their relation to the background. i found no differences whatsoever. mr. eisenberg. so that for the photograph to be a different photograph, i take it, you would have had to have oswald line up exactly in the same position, with his elbows and torso in precisely the same relative position, with the rifle at precisely the same relative height and in precisely the same relative position as it had been in previously, with the lighting casting the exact same shadows, insofar as shadows are visible, and so forth, is that correct? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. and you found no discrepancies in those items i have just mentioned? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. (discussion off the record.) mr. eisenberg. back on the record. to make the record complete, is there any other possibility, no matter how remote? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; even though it would be extremely remote, it is conceivable that a person could actually make a drawing or painting of a picture exactly like this, that when reproduced in a newspaper or publication with its loss of detail would resemble commission exhibit no. -a, in the same manner that this picture or this reproduction resembles exhibit no. -a. mr. eisenberg. "this reproduction" being which, mr. shaneyfelt? mr. shaneyfelt. either exhibit no. , or exhibit no. , exhibit no. , any of the magazine or newspaper reproductions that we have discussed. mr. eisenberg. you are not talking about commission exhibit no. -a itself, which you testified to earlier? mr. shaneyfelt. no, no. mr. eisenberg. do you see any evidence of this, mr. shaneyfelt? mr. shaneyfelt. no; i do not, and i think it is in the realm of unreasonable doubt and it is highly improbable. mr. eisenberg. returning to shaneyfelt exhibit no. , could you describe the apparent retouching in that exhibit? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; there is airbrushing in the background area that shows beside the right shoulder of oswald, where the tree that shows in exhibit no. has been airbrushed out to a darkened area. there have been highlights added to the rifle, a straight highlight along the top of the stock, running from the butt of the stock to the bolt, a bright highlight along the butt of the stock. there has been rather elaborate retouching around the bolt area or breech area of the rifle. the highlight that appears in shaneyfelt exhibit no. along the bolt of the gun, which appears as a broken line or two segments of a line or highlight, appears in the reproduction on exhibit no. as a broken line very much like the actual highlight in the photograph which is exhibit no. . there has been a highlight added parallel to that, along the bottom of or just below that area in the reproduction on exhibit no. , which does not appear in exhibit no. . the top of the rifle has been emphasized with a strong highlight, and the highlight in the reproduction of exhibit no. along the top of the rifle does not conform to the actual top of the rifle as it can be seen in shaneyfelt exhibit no. . there are some other highlights added above that, that are rather unexplainable but may be highlights relative to the lower portion of the scope. also a highlight has been added along the top of the barrel between oswald's left hand and where the barrel extends past his left shoulder. there has been some retouching added around the pistol on the right hip of oswald, and around the holster. these are the primary points that have been retouched. mr. eisenberg. mr. shaneyfelt, does this photograph, shaneyfelt exhibit no. , more closely resemble the detroit free press photograph, which is shaneyfelt exhibit no. , or the life photographs, shaneyfelt exhibits nos. and ? mr. shaneyfelt. it corresponds to the reproduction in the detroit free press, exhibit no. , and not as well to the reproduction on exhibit no. , which is the life magazine. in fact, the reproductions on exhibits nos. and no. both have two white specks along the right leg between the knee and the right foot, centrally located in that area one above the other, that do not appear in the original photograph, which is commission exhibit -a, and do not appear in the life magazine reproduction on either exhibit no. or . this would indicate to me that these two photographs may have originated from the same basic source or basic print. mr. eisenberg. now, in fact, the credit under shaneyfelt no. says, "copyright , detroit free press," is that correct? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. but is the picture identical in all respects to the detroit free press picture? mr. shaneyfelt. no; the retouching, particularly around the breech of the rifle in exhibit no. , which is the newsweek reproduction, is different than the retouching on the reproduction in exhibit no. , the detroit free press. mr. eisenberg. does the reproduction around the breech, that is, just below oswald's left hand, correspond to anything you have ever seen on a rifle, mr. shaneyfelt--that is, the four or five roughly parallel lines? mr. shaneyfelt. no; it doesn't correspond to anything that i recall having seen on a rifle. mr. eisenberg. what do you think the genesis of all those lines would be? mr. shaneyfelt. i believe that they are possibly the artist's interpretation of how the rifle may have looked in that area, since the photograph being retouched was indistinct in that area. mr. eisenberg. would you say that would be likely to have been done by a person not familiar with rifles? mr. shaneyfelt. that is a possibility, but i wouldn't be able to state that with any degree of certainty. that is one possibility. mr. eisenberg. i also see that shaneyfelt exhibit no. has an arrow pointing to the revolver, which is not present in shaneyfelt exhibit no. , is that correct? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. can you explain why shaneyfelt exhibit no. differs from exhibit no. , although it seems to be substantially similar, and in fact newsweek credits its photo to the detroit free press, which is the shaneyfelt exhibit no. picture? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; i would attribute these differences to the differences in retouching. since it would be normal procedure in publications of this type for each publication to do its own retouching for its own reproductions, they would normally receive the picture in an unretouched condition from whatever source is available, such as the associated press, or, as in exhibit no. , the credit to the detroit free press, and after receiving the unretouched photograph, would then add the retouching that they desired to have on the photo before making the halftone reproduction. mr. eisenberg. the area to the right of oswald's shoulder and head, that is, to the left of the shoulder and head as we look at the picture, appears to be retouched or airbrushed out in the same way in both pictures. would that be your conclusion? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; with one exception, that while the airbrushing is generally similar, it appears in the detroit free press, which is exhibit no. , as a light area against a black shirt, while in newsweek, exhibit no. , it appears as a black area against a rather dark shirt, with a light highlight added along the shoulder to make the area stand out against the background. mr. eisenberg. is it your conclusion, then, that two separate retouchings were done to accomplish that effect, one retouching by the newsweek people and one retouching by the detroit free press people? mr. shaneyfelt. i have no foundation on which to base a positive statement in that regard, but this is suggested by the variations that are present. mr. eisenberg. so that the presence of that same feature as a retouch in both photographs might be coincidental, or at least might not have been done by the same person? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. and in your mind that similarity of feature does not preclude the possibility that a completely unretouched photo was submitted by the detroit free press to newsweek? mr. shaneyfelt. that is right. mr. eisenberg. now, mr. shaneyfelt, i hand you page of the new york times, issue of february , , which again contains a photograph similar to those you have been testifying as to--and which page i have marked shaneyfelt exhibit no. --and i ask you whether you have examined that photograph? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; i have. mr. eisenberg. and what is your conclusion concerning that photograph, mr. shaneyfelt? mr. shaneyfelt. i found this to be generally similar in all visible characteristics to the photograph which is commission exhibit no. -a, and found no differences to suggest that it is other than the same photograph as exhibit no. -a. however, the lack of detail in the halftone reproduction on shaneyfelt exhibit no. precludes a positive identification with commission exhibit no. -a. mr. eisenberg. do you see any retouching in this photograph, mr. shaneyfelt? mr. shaneyfelt. yes, i do. mr. eisenberg. can you describe that? mr. shaneyfelt. in the photograph reproduced on exhibit no. this is retouched along the right shoulder and to the right side of the face of oswald. in this instance, that has been put in in a solid medium gray, to make it appear as the extension of the building or the fence that appears in the background of the original photograph. there is retouching around the rifle stock--in fact, the stock itself seems to have been lightened all along the lower portion near the butt; a highlight along the top has been retouched along the top from the butt to the breech; some retouching along the butt of the stock, and also along the bottom edge of the stock, running upward toward the trigger. the highlight that appears in exhibit no. along the bolt as a two-section highlight or a broken highlight appears in this same general area on the gun in the reproduction on exhibit no. as a solid highlight and one continuous line. there has been a highlight added along the bottom of the gun just forward of the trigger guard and just below oswald's left hand. also a highlight has been added along the top of the gun above oswald's left hand to show the gun as apart from the dark shirt, so that the gun and shirt do not blend into one continuous tone at that point. there appears to be some retouching of oswald's shadow, in that it has been toned down to a medium gray shadow so that it will not blend into the lower portion of his legs. mr. eisenberg. which of the reproductions which you have so far examined does this most resemble, mr. shaneyfelt: the detroit free press, the life, or the newsweek reproduction? mr. shaneyfelt. this corresponds to both the detroit free press and the newsweek reproductions of the photograph, in that it contains the two white dots along the right leg, centrally located between the ankle and the knee as they appear in those two reproductions, and, therefore, may be derived from the same basic print, since this characteristic does not appear in commission exhibit no. -a or in the life magazine reproductions on shaneyfelt exhibits nos. and . mr. eisenberg. what about the retouching in the new york times photograph, mr. shaneyfelt, how does that compare with the retouching in the detroit free press and newsweek photographs? mr. shaneyfelt. the retouching is different from any of the other exhibits nos. and . mr. eisenberg. would you conclude, therefore, that the new york times, like newsweek, may have received from its source an unretouched photograph which it proceeded to retouch? mr. shaneyfelt. yes. mr. eisenberg. and that again the similarity in retouching to the upper right of oswald's shoulder and head might be coincidental? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; actually, there is considerable difference in the retouching in that area on the new york times photograph as compared to the newsweek and detroit free press exhibits. the new york times has attempted to make it appear as a wall, whereas the other two have merely airbrushed out the line, and it looks like foliage. mr. eisenberg. the stock in all three of these photographs, that is, detroit free press, newsweek, and new york times, has also been retouched in a similar manner, that is, so that the top of the stock appears straight, whereas actually the top of the stock is curved--is that correct? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. what do you think accounts for the coincidence of the retouching in these two areas--that is, the top of the stock and the area to the upper right of oswald's shoulder--given the differences you have noted in the details of retouching? mr. shaneyfelt. i would attribute that to a lack of detail in the photographs that they had, and a lack of understanding of the formation of a normal rifle stock on the part of the retoucher. mr. eisenberg. now, mr. shaneyfelt, i hand you the front page of the new york journal-american, issue of february , , which again contains a photograph similar to those you have been discussing, and which i have labeled shaneyfelt exhibit no. , and ask you whether you have examined that photograph? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; i have. mr. eisenberg. what is your conclusion? mr. shaneyfelt. it is my conclusion that this photograph is the same in all visible characteristics as the photograph which is commission exhibit no. -a, and i found no differences that would suggest that it is other than the same photograph. however, because of the lack of detail in the reproduction on exhibit no. , it is not possible to positively identify it as the same photograph. mr. eisenberg. is retouching apparent in this photograph, mr. shaneyfelt? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; it is. mr. eisenberg. could you describe that in detail? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; there has been retouching along the right shoulder of oswald, and to some degree around the head, in order to have the head and shoulder not blend into the background. this appears to have been done by increasing the highlight or lightening the highlight along the shoulder, rather than darkening the background. there is a highlight added along the top of the rifle stock that runs quite straight toward the bolt, but it is not as strong a highlight as in the other reproductions we have discussed. there is a highlight along the top of the rifle between oswald's left hand and the point where the rifle passes his left shoulder. there is a suggestion of some retouching around the rifle scope, which is almost lost in the detail or almost lost against the black shirt, but it is barely visible. there is a dark shadow that appears in commission exhibit no. -a that has been retouched out of exhibit no. reproduction, that shadow being about halfway between the knee and the crotch of the trousers between the legs. those are the primary points of retouching. mr. eisenberg. which of the various photographs which you have examined does this journal-american photograph most resemble, mr. shaneyfelt? mr. shaneyfelt. the journal-american photograph reproduction on exhibit no. is different from the detroit free press, exhibit no. , newsweek, exhibit no. , and new york times, exhibit no. , in that the white spots along the right leg between the ankle and the knee do not appear in the reproduction in the journal-american. it very closely corresponds to the reproduction on the front of the life magazine, which is shaneyfelt exhibit no. . in fact, the retouching appears to be very nearly the same. the lack of detail in the newspaper reproduction on exhibit no. precludes positively saying that it is identical, but it is my feeling that it is probably identical. mr. eisenberg. could you point out some of the similarities in retouching? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; the retouching along the top of the rifle stock, the retouching around the right shoulder and around the head, to the right of oswald's head, the retouching around the top of the rifle above the left hand, the elimination of the shadow between the legs just below the breech of the trousers are the same in both reproductions. mr. eisenberg. is there any notable difference between those reproductions, the life and journal-american reproductions? mr. shaneyfelt. no; no notable difference in the retouching. mr. eisenberg. do you have any opinion as to the source of the journal-american photograph? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; it is not possible to positively state, but i note in examining the journal-american reproduction, which is exhibit no. , that the face area in particular has a design in the light shadow areas which i recognized as being typical of a halftone reproduction made from another halftone reproduction. and because of the presence of this characteristic in the shadow area of the face, and the manner in which the photograph is cropped or trimmed, i am of the opinion that it is highly possible that the reproduction in the journal-american, exhibit no. , was made from a life magazine cover, issue of february , , containing the reproduction of the photograph of oswald. mr. eisenberg. could you elaborate on your statement that the cropping is a factor in leading to this conclusion? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; on exhibit no. , which is the life magazine cover, if a straight line is drawn vertically past the right edge of the life sign on the front of the magazine, so that the sign is blocked out, and that straight line is continued through a shadow area comparable to the shadow in the reproduction of exhibit no. , the cropping along that edge of the photograph then becomes identical to the cropping on the journal-american photograph. this would suggest that the picture was purposely cropped in that manner to eliminate the life magazine printing in the upper left-hand corner of the magazine cover. mr. eisenberg. does the life magazine picture, and also the journal-american picture, show cropping as against the original, that is, exhibit no. -a? mr. shaneyfelt. yes. the life magazine photograph does not show all of the photograph that appears on commission exhibit no. -a, the photograph having been cropped down closer to the head, cutting out some of the overhead area. there has also been considerable cropping on both the right and left margins, when you compare the life magazine and journal-american reproductions with exhibit no. -a. mr. eisenberg. is there any other feature on the journal-american photograph which leads you to conclude that it was taken from the life photograph? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; in the lower right-hand corner of the life magazine cover, exhibit no. , there is a strip set in, containing the printing "february , , cents." if the journal-american did, in fact, reproduce this picture from a life cover, it would have been necessary for them to retouch out this strip of printing in the lower right-hand corner of the life magazine cover, and i find on examination of the reproduction on the journal-american that there is retouching in this area. the background of the grass is inconsistent, in that it has been darkened around that area, and there is also darkening along the foot and leg, and the shadow area has been altered in between the two feet in a manner to strongly suggest that this strip has been retouched out in order to make the reproduction on the journal-american, exhibit no. . mr. eisenberg. mr. shaneyfelt, do you have anything to add to your testimony? mr. shaneyfelt. i believe not. mr. eisenberg. well, thank you very much then. that will be all. testimony of james c. cadigan the testimony of james c. cadigan was taken at : p.m., on april , , at maryland avenue ne., washington, d.c., by mr. melvin aron eisenberg, assistant counsel of the president's commission. (the oath was administered by the reporter.) mr. cadigan. i do. mr. eisenberg. mr. cadigan, the purpose for which we are here is to go into the facts of the assassination of president kennedy, and in particular we have asked you to testify concerning analysis of questioned documents. mr. cadigan, could you state your full name and your position? mr. cadigan. james c. cadigan. i am a special agent of the fbi, assigned as an examiner of questioned documents in the fbi laboratory in washington, d.c. mr. eisenberg. and how long have you been in this field, mr. cadigan? mr. cadigan. twenty-three and one-half years. mr. eisenberg. what was your training in this field? mr. cadigan. upon being assigned to the laboratory i was given a specialized course of training and instruction which consisted of attending various lectures and conferences on the subject, reading books, and working under the direction of experienced examiners. upon attaining a required degree of proficiency, i was assigned cases on my own responsibility, and since that time i have examined many thousands of cases involving handwriting, hand printing, typewriting, forgeries, erasures, alterations, mechanical devices of all types, pens, paper, and ink. i conduct research on various problems as they arise and assist in the training of our new examiners. mr. eisenberg. have you testified in federal or other courts, mr. cadigan? mr. cadigan. yes; in many federal and state courts, and military courts-martial. mr. eisenberg. mr. cadigan, i now hand you commission exhibit no. , and i ask you whether you have examined that item. mr. cadigan. yes; i have. mr. eisenberg. for the record, that consists of an application to purchase a rifle, addressed to klein's sporting goods in chicago. mr. cadigan, i now hand you an item consisting of a roll of microfilm labeled d- , and ask you whether you are familiar with that roll of microfilm? mr. cadigan. yes; i am. mr. eisenberg. that microfilm will be marked cadigan exhibit no. . (the article referred to was marked cadigan exhibit no. .) mr. eisenberg. mr. cadigan, was exhibit no. developed from a negative contained in cadigan exhibit no. ? mr. cadigan. yes; it was printed from that roll. mr. eisenberg. i now hand you commission exhibit no. , consisting of the marine corps file of lee harvey oswald; commission exhibit no. , consisting of two letters extracted from oswald's state department file; commission exhibit no. , consisting of a passport application by lee harvey oswald, dated june , --at least "passport issued june , "; and cadigan exhibit no. , consisting of a letter from lee harvey oswald to john b. connally, then secretary of the navy. (the document referred to was marked cadigan exhibit no. .) mr. cadigan. this is in two parts. mr. eisenberg. in two parts, and the second part consists of a letter from lee harvey oswald to a brigadier general r. mcc. tompkins, dated march , and a group of documents, comprising photographs of the balance of lee harvey oswald's state department file, labeled cadigan exhibit no. . (the documents referred to were marked cadigan exhibit no. .) mr. eisenberg. i ask you whether you have examined these various items. mr. cadigan. yes; i have. mr. eisenberg. mr. cadigan, can you explain the meaning of the term standard or "known documents" as used in the field of questioned-document examination? mr. cadigan. yes. known standards are samples of writings of an individual which are known to be in his writing and which are available for comparison with questioned or suspect writings. mr. eisenberg. you have examined certain questioned writings allegedly prepared by lee harvey oswald, have you, mr. cadigan? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. in your examination, what documents did you use as known documents? mr. cadigan. cadigan exhibit no. , commission exhibit no. , commission exhibit no. , cadigan exhibit no. , and commission exhibit no. . mr. eisenberg. for the record, during the balance of the examination i will refer to these documents collectively as the known or standard writings. mr. cadigan, a portion of the known documents and a portion of the questioned documents are photographs rather than originals; is that correct? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. are you able to identify the handwriting of an individual on the basis of a photograph of that handwriting? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. would you make an identification, such an identification, if your only questioned document was a photograph if the photograph was sufficiently clear? mr. cadigan. if the photograph is sufficiently clear, it is adequate for the handwriting comparison. mr. eisenberg. similarly with standards, if your only standard was a photograph or your only standards were photographs? mr. cadigan. if your standards were also photographs, it is possible to make the comparison and arrive at a definite opinion. mr. eisenberg. and were the photographs in this case, both the standard and the questioned documents, clear enough to form the basis of an opinion? mr. cadigan. yes. i might point out that some of the known standards are original documents and not photographs. mr. eisenberg. yes; i am aware of that, but i wanted to set out on the record whether the standards which are photographs are adequate---- mr. cadigan. they are adequate. mr. eisenberg. to serve as standards. mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. returning to commission exhibit no. , did you compare the handwriting on that exhibit with the writing in the known standards to see if they were written by the same person? mr. cadigan. yes; i did. mr. eisenberg. and what was your conclusion? mr. cadigan. that the writer of the known standards, lee harvey oswald, prepared the handwriting and hand printing on commission exhibit no. . mr. eisenberg. have you prepared photographs or charts which you could use to demonstrate the reason for that, mr. cadigan? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. will you produce them? you are handing me an enlarged photograph of commission exhibit no. , is that correct? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. this was prepared by you or under your supervision? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. and constitutes an accurate photograph of exhibit no. ? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. that will be cadigan exhibit no. -a. (the document referred to was marked cadigan exhibit no. -a.) and have you prepared photographs of the standards, mr. cadigan? mr. cadigan. yes; i have. mr. eisenberg. the first photograph is an enlargement of the letter to brigadier general r. mcc. tompkins? is that correct? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. that will be cadigan exhibit no. . (the document referred to was marked cadigan exhibit no. .) mr. eisenberg. and the second photograph is an enlargement of a letter from the state department file, is that correct? mr. cadigan. enlargement of a letter in the state department file. mr. eisenberg. in the state department file? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. that will be cadigan exhibit no. . (the document referred to was marked cadigan exhibit no. .) mr. eisenberg. the third is an enlargement of a second letter in the state department file, the first letter having been dated "received november , ," and this letter dated "december , , received december , ," is that correct? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. that will be cadigan exhibit no. . (the document referred to was marked cadigan exhibit no. .) (discussion off the record.) mr. eisenberg. next is a letter to the state department without an apparent date, beginning, "dear sirs: please forward receipts to me for final payment of my loan" and so forth, is that correct? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. that will be cadigan exhibit no. . (the document referred to was marked cadigan exhibit no. .) mr. eisenberg. next is another letter from the state department file, reading, dear sirs, please add this $ . to my account no. dated october . is that also from the state department file, mr. cadigan? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. that will be cadigan exhibit no. . (the document referred to was marked cadigan exhibit no. .) mr. eisenberg. next is the letter to then secretary of the navy john b. connally and a page from the letter to brigadier general r. mcc. tompkins, is that correct? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. that will be cadigan exhibit no. . (the document referred to was marked cadigan exhibit no. .) mr. eisenberg. that is in two parts, is that correct? mr. cadigan. yes; it is two pages. mr. eisenberg. next is a photograph of the passport application referred to earlier? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. that will be cadigan exhibit no. . (the document referred to was marked cadigan exhibit no. .) mr. eisenberg. and, finally, a photograph of the reverse side of that? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. which will also be cadigan exhibit no. . now, in each case, mr. cadigan, were these photographs prepared by you or under your supervision? mr. cadigan. they were. mr. eisenberg. and are they accurate photographs of the items described as being the subject of the photographs? mr. cadigan. they are. mr. eisenberg. now, mr. cadigan, with reference to your enlargement, cadigan exhibit no. -a, and your photographs of standards, cadigan exhibits nos. through , could you state some of the reasons which led you to the conclusion that commission exhibit no. , of which cadigan exhibit no. is an enlargement, is in the writing of lee harvey oswald, the author of the known documents? mr. cadigan. yes; on commission exhibit---- mr. eisenberg. you can refer to your photographs. mr. cadigan. the enlarged photograph, cadigan exhibit no. -a, contains both handwriting and hand printing which was compared with the known standards, cadigan exhibits nos. through . i compared both the handwriting and the hand printing to determine whether or not the same combination of individual handwriting characteristics was present in both the questioned and the known documents. i found many characteristics, some of which i would point out. on the order blank, in the "a. hidell" and in the wording "dallas texas" which constitutes a part of the return address, the letter "a" in cadigan exhibit no. is made in the same manner as the capital letter "a" on cadigan exhibit no. . the letter is formed with a short straight stroke beginning about halfway up the left side. the top of it is peaked or pointed. the right side is straight, and is shorter than the initial stroke. the capital letter "d" in dallas is characterized by a staff or downstroke slanting at about a ° angle. the lower loop in some instances is closed. in the word "dallas" the loop is closed, and the body of the letter ends in a rounded loop formation. the same characteristic i found in cadigan exhibits nos. , , and as well as other exhibits. the word "texas" on cadigan exhibit no. -a is characterized with the letter "x" made in an unusual manner in that the writer, after completing the body of the letter, makes an abrupt change of motion to the following letter "a." this same characteristic i observed in the known standard on cadigan exhibits nos. , , and . in the address portion of the envelope, cadigan exhibit no. -a, appears the word "dept." i noticed here, again, the same formation of the capital "d." in addition, the entire word "dept" appears in the known standards on cadigan exhibits nos. , , and . the characteristics i would point out here are in the letter "p" in cadigan exhibit no. , where the letter is made with a relatively long narrow staff, and the body of the letter is a rounded shape which projects above the staff. the letter "t" ends abruptly in a downstroke. in the handprinting appearing in the exhibit marked cadigan exhibit no. -a, the wording "dallas, texas" contains a number of the same characteristics as cadigan exhibit no. , where the same wording appears, and on cadigan exhibits nos. and . the writer uses a script-type "d," and prints the other letters in the word "dallas." the "a" again is made in a similar way to the "a" in "a. hidell," with a beginning of the downstroke approximately three-quarters of the way up the left side of the stroke. the letter is relatively narrow, and the right-hand side of the letter is straight. in the double "l" combinations there is a curve in the lower portion of the letter. the "s" has a flat top, slanting at approximately a -degree angle. in the word "texas" in cadigan exhibit no. -a the writer has used a small "e" following the letter "t." the same characteristics will be noted on cadigan exhibits nos. , , and . additionally, i noted that in addition to the shape of the letters themselves, the relative heights of the letters, the spacing between the letters, the slant of the letters in both the know and questioned documents are the same. on cadigan exhibit no. -a, in the portion for address, appears the notation "p.o. box ," and this same wording appears on cadigan exhibit no. , and on no. and no. except for the "p.o." portion. here, again, i observed the same formation of the individual letters; the spacing, the style, the slant of the writings in both questioned and known were observed to be the same. the tail of the " " is made with a relatively long stroke and the same characteristic appears in the known standards. in the hand printed name "a. hidell," on cadigan exhibit no. -a, another characteristic i noted was the very small-sized "i" in the name "hidell." the writer makes this letter very short in contrast to the other letters in the name. this same characteristic i observed on cadigan exhibit no. , the passport application. with reference to the "i" dot on cadigan exhibit no. in the name "hidell," in the return portion, the dot is relatively high and between the body of the letter and the following letter "d." in the portion of the word "chicago"--of the name "chicago"--in the address portion on cadigan exhibit no. , the "i" dot is between the "o" and the "g" in "chicago" and is well above the line of writing. on cadigan exhibit no. i observed the same displacement of the "i" dot. in some instances, it is slightly to the right of the body of the letter, as in the word "citizenship" in the sixth line from the bottom, whereas in the word "direct" in the ninth line from the bottom the "i" dot is displaced one and a half letters to the right. based upon the combination of these individual characteristics which i have pointed out, as well as others, i reached the opinion that the handwriting and handprinting on cadigan exhibit no. -a were written by lee harvey oswald, the writer of the known standards, cadigan exhibits nos. through . mr. eisenberg. now, mr. cadigan, the photographs which comprise cadigan exhibits nos. through are actually somewhat more limited than the standards, in that they represent in some cases excerpts from the standards, is that correct? such as excerpts from the marine corps file? mr. cadigan. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. now, when you refer to the standards, cadigan exhibits nos. through , do you mean by that that you based your conclusion only on the excerpts shown in exhibits nos. through ? mr. cadigan. no; the exhibits, cadigan exhibits nos. through , were merely prepared for demonstration purposes. the original examination and comparison was made using all of the writings, the handwriting and handprinting in the state department file, the marine corps file, the passport application and the two letters, one to governor connally and one to brigadier general tompkins. mr. eisenberg. that is, the documents which you identified very close to the beginning of the deposition, and which i referred to collectively as the standards? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. mr. cadigan, i now hand you commission exhibit no. , and ask you if you have examined that exhibit? mr. cadigan. yes; i have. mr. eisenberg. for the record, that is the money order which was included with the purchase order to klein's. have you prepared a photograph of that exhibit, mr. cadigan? mr. cadigan. i have. mr. eisenberg. that will be cadigan exhibit no. . (the document referred to was marked cadigan exhibit no. .) mr. eisenberg. and this was taken by you or under your supervision? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. and is it an accurate photograph of the money order, exhibit no. ? mr. cadigan. it is. mr. eisenberg. did you compare exhibit no. with the standards to determine whether exhibit no. had been written by lee harvey oswald? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. what was your conclusion? mr. cadigan. that the postal money order, cadigan exhibit no. , had been prepared by lee harvey oswald. mr. eisenberg. the postal money order is commission exhibit no. and your picture is cadigan exhibit no. , is that correct? mr. cadigan. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. could you explain some of the points of identity which led you to the conclusion that you formed? mr. cadigan. yes; i think that using the wording "dallas, texas" appearing on commission exhibit no. as an example of some of the handwriting characteristics present on this exhibit---- mr. eisenberg. you mean cadigan exhibit no. ? mr. cadigan. yes. in the wording "dallas, texas," the writing is quite characteristic. i noted, again, the overall size, spacing, slant, and relative proportions of letters on cadigan exhibit no. were the same as on cadigan exhibit no. , and that the letter "d" was characterized on cadigan exhibit no. with a relatively short staff, with a rather long retrace on the left side of the staff, the body of the letter ending in a large curling stroke. the small letter "a" is rather narrow and somewhat flat. there is a rather long smooth connecting stroke between the "a" and the double letter "l." the "s" is almost triangular in shape, and has no ending stroke or tail to the right. further, on cadigan exhibit no. , in the word "texas" i noted again the rather unusual shape of the small letter "x," in that it appears almost as though it were a letter "u." the capital letter "t" in "texas" has a very long curved beginning stroke and a small eyelet or loop in the lower portion of the letter. i noted these same characteristics on cadigan exhibit no. in the wording dallas, texas, and certain of the letters on cadigan exhibits nos. , , , and the entire word "texas" in cadigan exhibit no. . i noted also, again, that the small letter "p" in the word "sporting" on cadigan exhibit no. was made the same as the "p's" in the known standards as well as on cadigan exhibit no. in the word "dept," in that the staff is long, in the form of a long closed loop, and the upper portion of the letter extends above the staff and the body of the letter is not closed to the staff. i further noted that on cadigan exhibit no. the wording "p.o. box " contained the same characteristics as the same wording in cadigan exhibits nos. , , and . and here again, based on a combination of personal handwriting characteristics in the entire writing, i reached the opinion that cadigan exhibit no. had been written by lee harvey oswald. mr. eisenberg. mr. cadigan, i now hand you commission exhibit no. , which, for the record, is an order used for the purchase of the revolver that was apparently used to murder officer tippit, and i ask you whether you examined that exhibit. mr. cadigan. yes; i have. mr. eisenberg. and have you taken a photograph of that exhibit? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. which you now have before you? mr. cadigan. yes; i have an enlarged photograph. mr. eisenberg. and that would be cadigan exhibit no. . (the document referred to was marked cadigan exhibit no. .) mr. eisenberg. this was taken by you or under your supervision? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. it is an accurate photograph of exhibit no. ? mr. cadigan. it is. mr. eisenberg. mr. cadigan, did you compare commission exhibit no. with the standard or known writings of lee harvey oswald? mr. cadigan. yes; i did. mr. eisenberg. what was your conclusion as to the origin of ? mr. cadigan. that it was written by lee harvey oswald. mr. eisenberg. and can you give some of the reasons that led you to form that conclusion? mr. cadigan. yes; here again, it is the presence of the same combination of individual handwriting characteristics, both handwriting and handprinting. for example, again the wording "dallas, texas," is handprinted on cadigan exhibit no. , and the same characteristics appear in the same wording on cadigan exhibits nos. , , , and . the formation of the individual letters on cadigan exhibit no. , the spacing of the letters, the proportions of the letters, were found to be the same as on the known standards. additionally, the capital letter "d" in the name "drittal" on cadigan exhibit no. has a rather unusual appearance in the upper portion of the letter in that it is very pointed and wedge-shaped, and i found this same shape present on the reverse side of the passport application on cadigan exhibit no. , page in the word "dec." again, i noted the rather long tail or ending stroke on the number " " in the address portion of this exhibit. again, based on finding the same combination of individual handwriting habits in the questioned and known writings, i concluded that commission exhibit no. was written by lee harvey oswald. mr. eisenberg. mr. cadigan, i hand you commission exhibit no. , which, for the record, is an application by oswald for post office box , dated october , , and ask you whether you have examined that exhibit? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. and have you prepared a photograph of that exhibit, mr. cadigan? mr. cadigan. i have. mr. eisenberg. that will be cadigan exhibit no. . (the document referred to was marked cadigan exhibit no. .) mr. eisenberg. was this prepared by you or under your supervision? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. and is it a true and accurate photograph of ? mr. cadigan. it is. mr. eisenberg. did you attempt to determine whether commission exhibit no. had been prepared by the author of the standards, lee harvey oswald? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. what was your conclusion? mr. cadigan. that lee harvey oswald had prepared the hand printing, signature, and date on commission exhibit no. . this excludes the box number and the wording "dallas, tex.," in the lower right portion. mr. eisenberg. can you give some of the reasons why you came to that conclusion? mr. cadigan. yes; the reasons are basically the same, the presence of the same combination of both handwritten and hand printed characteristics in the known and questioned exhibits. on cadigan exhibit no. we have the hand printed wording---- mr. eisenberg. cadigan exhibit no. ? mr. cadigan. cadigan exhibit no. , excuse me, the passport application, we have the wording "lee oswald." this hand printed signature is quite distinctive in the formation of the individual letters, in the spacing of the letters, and their slant. for example, the letter "l" on both cadigan exhibit no. and on cadigan exhibit no. , there is a small hook in the upper left portion where the downstroke begins, and there is a little tent or hill at the base of the letter. the double letter "e's" also have a curve, a dent at the base of the letter, although not so pronounced. both letters, both letter "e's," are approximately the same height as the "l." in the last name "oswald" on cadigan exhibit no. and on cadigan exhibit no. the "o" has a pointed or tented appearance in the upper right portion, and the ending stroke curves down into the body of the letter. the "s" and "w" in both the questioned and known are smaller than the following capital letter "a." this capital letter "a" in both instances is made in the same manner as previously described on other exhibits. the writer uses a lower-case or small "l," and a lower-case or small "d" for the last two letters of his name, the "d" portion or the letter "d" in both instances being made with a straight-slanted stroke, then an abrupt circular stroke to the left. in addition on this same exhibit i noted the formation of the letter "i." the exhibit i refer to is cadigan exhibit no. --the "i" being made very small in relation to the other letters adjacent to it. this document also bears the signature "lee h. oswald" which, again, is a very characteristic signature. it appears in cadigan exhibit no. , the questioned document, and cadigan exhibits nos. , , , , , , and . the signature i noted was written rather rapidly. it is somewhat distorted in appearance. the initial "l" has a rather long curved beginning stroke and relatively narrow upper and lower portions of the letter. the letter "h" is made with two parallel strokes and it can be seen that there is a very little retrace from the base of the first stroke in the letter to the top of the second stroke in the letter. the "o" combination is rather unusual in that the writer swings into the letter "s" from the top of the "o." also, as the signature progresses to the right it increases in size, and very noticeably in the "ld" portion where the "d" stands well above the line of writing. and in this particular signature there is a long-swinging stroke from the top of the "d," having a shape similar to a "u" lying on its side. the base of the letter has a very sharp angular formation. again, based on a combination of the same individual handwriting and hand printing characteristics, i reached the opinion that commission exhibit no. was prepared by lee harvey oswald. mr. eisenberg. mr. cadigan, i now hand you commission exhibit no. , consisting of a change-of-address card relating to box . have you examined that exhibit? mr. cadigan. yes; i have. mr. eisenberg. and have you prepared a photograph thereof? mr. cadigan. i have. mr. eisenberg. that will be cadigan exhibit no. . (the document referred to was marked cadigan exhibit no. .) mr. eisenberg. this photograph is an accurate reproduction of commission exhibit no. ? mr. cadigan. yes; it is. mr. eisenberg. mr. cadigan, getting back for a moment to cadigan exhibit no. , i see that there is another picture shown on that exhibit, apart from the one as to which you testified. mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. can you describe that? mr. cadigan. yes. that is a post office department form , application for post office box, and the post office box number is , and it is signed, lee h. oswald. mr. eisenberg. and why is that included on the picture with cadigan exhibit no. , or rather on the picture with commission exhibit no. ? is that because they were both from---- mr. cadigan. no; it is part of another post office application that does not relate to box . mr. eisenberg. did you have any particular reason for printing that up with the photograph of exhibit no. ? mr. cadigan. no. i think it may have been part of another exhibit which has not as yet been introduced. mr. eisenberg. does your identification of exhibit no. in any way depend upon that photograph? mr. cadigan. no; not at all. mr. eisenberg. so we can disregard it for our purposes? mr. cadigan. if you want to, i can take it out. mr. eisenberg. well, it is in. mr. cadigan. i mean i can just cut it along here. mr. eisenberg. i would rather leave it in, since it is in the record. mr. cadigan. all right. mr. eisenberg. i just wanted to make sure that it didn't need to be discussed as part of the identification of exhibit no. , and i take it it does not? mr. cadigan. no. mr. eisenberg. now, getting back to commission exhibit no. and the photograph thereof, which is cadigan exhibit no. , did you attempt to determine whether commission exhibit no. had been prepared by lee harvey oswald? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. the photograph of which is cadigan exhibit no. . and what was your conclusion on that? mr. cadigan. again, that commission exhibit no. was written by lee harvey oswald, again based upon finding the same combination of individual handwriting and hand printing characteristics in both the questioned writing and the known standards. mr. eisenberg. could you discuss some of those common characteristics? mr. cadigan. yes. here, again, the entire word "dallas" and the word texas is made in a very characteristic manner which i have described before, and which appears on cadigan exhibits nos. , , , and . the signature "lee h. oswald" was found to have the same characteristics as the known signatures, although here i noted that in the ending "d" in oswald the stroke was less cursive than the ending "d" in cadigan exhibit no. , in that the writer makes a rather narrow loop and does not cross the staff of the letter "d." i noted this characteristic, also, in cadigan exhibits nos. and . i would like to point out that here, again, the writer varies his individual characteristics, which is entirely normal and expected, and actually it adds weight to the characteristic to find that it does vary to some degree. all writing, particularly signatures, are never exactly duplicated and some variation is normally expected, and finding the same variations in both questioned and known signatures increases the value of it, so that, again, the presence of the same combination of handwriting and hand printing characteristics in cadigan exhibit no. in the known exhibits enabled me to reach the opinion that commission exhibit no. was written by lee harvey oswald. mr. eisenberg. you used the term "cursive" in respect to this. can you explain the meaning of that term? mr. cadigan. yes; the ending "d" stroke is made with a flourish or a sweeping motion on cadigan exhibit no. , and on cadigan exhibit no. the stroke ends abruptly at the staff of the letter. mr. eisenberg. and why do you call one "more cursive"? mr. cadigan. merely for description. mr. eisenberg. can you explain the meaning of the term "cursive" apart from your use in this instance? mr. cadigan. i think cursive has also been used to describe the roundness of writing as opposed to an angular shape. i think it also is sometimes used to distinguish between handwriting and hand printing. mr. eisenberg. mr. cadigan, i now show you commission exhibit no. , consisting of an item purporting to be a selective service system notice of classification in the name of "alek james hidell"; commission no. , a selective service system notice of classification in the name of lee harvey oswald; commission exhibit no. , a registration certificate of the selective service system in the name of lee harvey oswald; commission exhibit no. , a photographic negative; commission exhibit no. , a photograph negative; commission exhibit no. , a photograph negative; and commission exhibit no. , a photographic negative, and i ask you whether you have examined these various items? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. based on that examination, mr. cadigan, could you discuss your conclusions concerning commission exhibit no. ? mr. cadigan. yes. commission exhibit no. is a fraudulent and counterfeit reproduction made from the retouched photographic negatives in commission exhibits nos. , , and which in turn were made from commission exhibits nos. and . mr. eisenberg. and how were they prepared precisely, mr. cadigan? mr. cadigan. these are photographic reproductions. what was done was to take a genuine selective service system notice of classification, commission exhibit no. in the name of lee harvey oswald. from this, a photographic negative was prepared. then various portions of the information, including the name, the selective service number, the signature of the clerk of the local board were obliterated with a red opaque substance, and i noted that in the course of this the individual preparing the negative had inadvertently cut off portions of the printed letters, had thickened printed lines, and especially i noted in the signature portion had destroyed portions of the printed letters, and i compared the commission exhibit no. with the retouched negative itself, and observed that the defects in the commission exhibit no. were due to the retouching of the negative. although the negative has been blotted out, or the information has been blotted out, it is readily visible to the naked eye that on commission exhibit no. , which was also examined in connection with the examination of commission exhibit no. , the original writing, the original signature and the typed information "lee harvey oswald" and selective service number is the same as it appears on commission exhibit no. . the opaquing is merely to remove this information photographically. there was an intervening step where a small negative or a reduced negative of the lower portion of the face of the card which refers to the penalty for violation concerning carrying the card itself was made. the individual responsible made a reduced photograph but, again, the same characteristics are apparent, and by comparing the print, the photographic print commission exhibit no. with these negatives, it is possible to determine that the commission exhibit no. was produced from the negatives and the negatives in turn were produced from commission exhibits nos. and . in this connection, i would point out that the reverse side of commission exhibit is the form used for a registration certificate, and it is not a proper face of a notice of classification. here, again, the same procedure was followed. the original card is photographed. the unwanted information is painted out with an opaque substance, and then a photographic print is prepared. then the individual responsible typed in the information "alek james hidell" with the selective service number, descriptive data on the reverse, and the number of the local board. further, an examination of the commission exhibit no. shows the individual had placed the photograph in a typewriter and struck a number of keys which did not print. the indentations from the typewriter keys can be clearly seen in side lighting. also, in the selective service number on the face of the card and the data on the back of the card, indentations of typewriter keys were noted. mr. eisenberg. mr. cadigan, returning to the negatives, i see that in commission exhibit no. , as you pointed out, the information that was originally on the card is visible. mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. whereas, in commission exhibit no. it is not visible. mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. can you explain the difference? mr. cadigan. yes; because commission exhibit no. is an intermediate step. commission exhibit no. was first prepared, and a print was made from this exhibit. the photographic print would not have the name "lee harvey oswald" in red on it. in the place of "lee harvey oswald" it would show as a blank. then using the print, a second negative is prepared, and further retouching is done, and also the warning notice in a reduced form is inserted into the negative, so that the data from the original notice of classification issued in the name of oswald appears on the first negative and does not appear on the second negative, but both negatives are directly linked to the original card of oswald and to the counterfeit reproduction. mr. eisenberg. now, have you prepared photographs of this card showing some of the details you have been discussing? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. that will be cadigan exhibit no. . (the document referred to was marked cadigan exhibit no. .) mr. eisenberg. this cadigan exhibit---- mr. cadigan. actually, there are four different photographs, photographic enlargements that comprise cadigan exhibit no. , the face and reverse of the notice of classification made in normal lighting, and the face and reverse of the card made with side lighting showing the typewritten indentations. mr. eisenberg. let's mark those, then, cadigan exhibits nos. , , and , and . (the documents referred to were marked cadigan exhibits nos. , , , and .) mr. eisenberg. now, cadigan exhibit no. shows the face with normal lighting? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. cadigan exhibit no. shows the reverse with normal lighting? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. cadigan exhibit no. shows the face with side lighting? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. and cadigan exhibit no. shows the reverse with side lighting? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. these exhibits also contain pictures of another questioned document which we will get to shortly, and that is the certificate of service in the name of alek james hidell, is that correct? mr. cadigan. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. now, starting with cadigan exhibit no. , could you discuss several of the features on which you base the conclusions you have given us earlier? mr. cadigan. yes. the observation of this exhibit will show in the blocks for the selective service number fragmentary portions of the original selective service number. the lines have been thickened. in the space provided for "been classified in class," in the middle, in approximately the middle of the space there is a heavy dotted line. by comparing this with the original card issued in the name "oswald" is seen the lower portion of the capital letter "i." mr. eisenberg. have you taken a photograph of the original card? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. that we will mark cadigan exhibit no. . (the document referred to was marked cadigan exhibit no. .) mr. cadigan. on the right-hand side of the card the word "president" appears, and on cadigan exhibit no. a portion of the "r" and the "e" is missing, due to the retouching. examination of the corresponding area on cadigan exhibit no. shows that this was due to retouching a portion of the signature of the local board. similarly, in the wording "heavy penalty for violation" appearing below the signature, the word "violation" is considerably distorted in that portions of the various letters are missing. the negative shows this is due to retouching, and a comparison with the original card of oswald, of which cadigan exhibit no. is an enlargement, shows where the lower loops of the letter "f" cut into the letter, cut into the printed word "violation," which required retouching by the individual to remove it. mr. eisenberg. have you taken photographs of these negatives to illustrate these points? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. this is that photograph? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. that will be marked cadigan exhibit no. . (the document referred to was marked cadigan exhibit no. .) mr. cadigan. and by referring to the cadigan exhibit no. , which shows the retouching, examination of the area in the word "president" will show where the portion of the "r" has been cut off. it will show where the capital letter "i" appears in the space provided "been classified in class," the "i" being part of the classification, roman numeral "iv-a," which appears on the original card. cadigan exhibit no. shows, also, the intermediate negative where the size of the warning appearing on the bottom of the card was reduced, and the additional retouching made that causes the distorted appearance of the word "violation" on the commission exhibit no. , so that it was based on my comparison side by side of the negatives, the photographic print, and the original exhibit in the wallet of oswald, which enabled me to determine that this commission exhibit no. was a fraudulent counterfeit made from retouched negatives which, in turn, were made from the original exhibits, commission exhibits nos. and . mr. eisenberg. i think that cadigan exhibits nos. , , and are self-explanatory. mr. cadigan. they merely serve to illustrate the indented typewriting that appears on these exhibits. mr. eisenberg. mr. cadigan, i now hand you commission exhibit no. , purporting to be a certificate of service that alek james hidell has honorably served on active duty in the u.s. marine corps, and ask you whether you have examined that document? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. and i hand you commission exhibit no. , consisting of two negatives. have you examined those negatives? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. based upon your examination, have you come to any conclusion as to the construction of commission exhibit no. ? mr. cadigan. yes; again, this is a fraudulent and counterfeit reproduction made from photographic negatives which, in turn, were made from the original card issued in the name of lee harvey oswald. mr. eisenberg. have you taken a photograph of the original card? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. and where does that appear? that is the photograph you are handing me now, which we will label cadigan exhibit no. ? mr. cadigan. yes. (the document referred to was marked cadigan exhibit no. .) mr. eisenberg. cadigan exhibit no. includes the selective service registration certificate we have been discussing, is that correct? mr. cadigan. no; it includes an enlargement of the original selective service system registration certificate issued in the name of lee harvey oswald. mr. eisenberg. and that is the selective service system certificate on which the forgery in the name of hidell was based? mr. cadigan. from which the reverse side of the forged or the fraudulent and counterfeit notice of classification was prepared. mr. eisenberg. focusing our attention on the certificate of service, could you illustrate by use of this photograph and any others you have already introduced some of the points which led you to your conclusion---- mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. as to commission exhibit no. ? mr. cadigan. the two negatives in commission exhibit no. , which appear on cadigan exhibit no. , show the areas of retouching. examination of the negatives themselves in commission exhibit no. shows that the original entries on the face and reverse side can be seen. it appears in red. the face reads "lee harvey oswald, ." and the reverse side bears his signature. from a study of the negatives and from the enlarged photographs, cadigan exhibits nos. , , , and , i wish to point out some of the evidence that links these three items together. on cadigan exhibit no. , on the reverse side in the printed word "signature," the "u" is misshapen, due to some of the retouched substance crossing the letter, and this is exactly in the area where the upper portion of the name "lee" appears on the original card. this is seen on cadigan exhibit no. . also on the line below, in which appears the printed wording "signature of certifying officer," in the letter "n" in "certifying" can be seen a long line which at first glance might appear to be a part of the signature "a. g. ayers, jr.," but which corresponds exactly to the ending stroke of the letter "y" in "harvey." also, in the printed word "officer" on the same line can be seen the effects of the retouch in that the upper part of the first "f" has been cut off by the retouch substance. so that by a study and a comparison of the commission exhibit no. with the negatives, with particular reference to where the retouching fluid has cut into lines or printing, and further comparing the same negative with the original card, as shown in cadigan exhibit no. , i determined and it can be seen that the commission exhibit no. was produced from the negatives in exhibit no. , which, in turn, were produced from the original card of which cadigan exhibit no. is a photograph. mr. eisenberg. mr. cadigan, in either the fraudulent selective service notice of classification or certificate of service, have attempts been made to reinstate portions of printed lines which were blocked out by the opaque substance? mr. cadigan. no; i didn't notice that, particularly. i noticed from a technical standpoint that the opaquing was rather crudely done, in that the opaquing of negatives is a common photographic technique, and with reasonable care you can avoid cutting into lines. i didn't particularly observe any areas where the lines had been put back in. this does not eliminate the possibility, because it is a very simple matter of scratching through the opaque emulsion to produce such a line. mr. eisenberg. where the line is thickened, as is visible in cadigan exhibit no. , how would you account for that, mr. cadigan? i am looking now at cadigan exhibit no. in the block, that portion of the rectangular block surrounding the number " ," and particularly the bottom of the block. mr. cadigan. a study and examination of cadigan exhibit no. shows that these areas correspond to the figures " " which appear in the second block of the selective service number, and which were not retouched off. mr. eisenberg. so you feel that, rather than the bottom of that block being thickened in the retouching, what you have is a residue from the typed-in portion---- mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. which appeared on the original card? mr. cadigan. yes; and this can be further seen. the right-hand side of the block for the first two letters of the selective service number shows a thickened area which corresponds to the numeral " " on the original card of oswald. mr. eisenberg. mr. cadigan, returning now for a moment to commission exhibit no. , were you able to identify either of the two signatures written in ink on that card, the one being "alek j. hidell," and the other a signature written over the caption "member or clerk of local board"? mr. cadigan. no; i did examine the "alek j. hidell" signature appearing as the signature of registrant, but the known writings available of lee harvey oswald were not sufficiently comparable with the signature to reach a definite opinion. i did note, however, some similarities in the letter "a" and in the last name, the letter "h" and the ending "l." but these were not of sufficient weight nor of sufficient number nor of sufficient combination to warrant a definite opinion. mr. eisenberg. you say you compared this item, this signature with the known standards. did you compare the signature with questioned documents which you already identified? mr. cadigan. no. mr. eisenberg. mr. cadigan, i wonder whether after this deposition would you compare this signature with those questioned signatures of "alek j. hidell" which you have now identified? mr. cadigan. yes; certainly. mr. eisenberg. mr. cadigan, i now hand you commission exhibit no. , consisting of a portion of an application for a post office box in new orleans, pod form , and ask you whether you have examined that item? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. and have you attempted to determine whether that item, commission exhibit no. , was prepared by lee harvey oswald, whose known writings we have introduced previously? mr. cadigan. yes; i have. mr. eisenberg. and what was your conclusion? mr. cadigan. on commission exhibit no. the hand printed names, "a. j. hidell," and "marina oswald," and the signature "l. h. oswald," were written by lee harvey oswald, based on a comparison with his known standards of writing. mr. eisenberg. have you prepared a photograph of commission exhibit no. ? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. and does that also include a photograph of another item, apparently another part of the application? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. did your identification of the commission exhibit no. depend in any way upon your identification of the other part of the item which is shown in your photograph? mr. cadigan. it did not. mr. eisenberg. i will mark the photograph cadigan. exhibit no. . (the document referred to was marked cadigan exhibit no. .) mr. eisenberg. was this prepared by you or under your supervision? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. and it is an accurate photograph? mr. cadigan. it is. mr. eisenberg. we haven't been going over that with all the other photographs, but is that true of all the photographs we have introduced so far? mr. cadigan. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. and any other photographs you may introduce during the balance of this deposition? mr. cadigan. that is true. mr. eisenberg. mr. cadigan, by use of that photograph and by use of the photographs of the standards, could you explain some of the points which led you to your conclusion concerning commission exhibit no. ? mr. cadigan. yes; here again, it is the presence of the same combination of characteristics in the hand printing and signature on cadigan exhibit no. and on cadigan exhibits nos. through . for example, the word "marina" on cadigan exhibit no. can be compared with the same word or the same name on cadigan exhibit no. , the "m" being characterized by a rather long beginning stroke, the center of the letter is high, giving the letter somewhat the appearance of the numeral " " tipped on its side. the "a" is similar to or made in the same way as previous "a's," with a pointed top, with the beginning stroke about two-thirds of the way up the staff. the "i", again, is very small in relation to the letters coming before and after it. in the "n" there is a curve at the base of the letter. it is more pronounced on cadigan exhibit no. than in the name "marina" in cadigan exhibit no. , but in the name "lillian," on the same exhibit, the same kind of curve is observed. in "oswald," again in the signature "l. h. oswald," i find the same characteristics and combinations of characteristics. in the questioned signature in cadigan exhibit no. as in the various known signatures in cadigan exhibits nos. through , here i think the ending "ld," the narrow pointed loops used for the "l" and "d" are very small, and with a rather misshapen body or upper stroke. again, it is the presence of the same combination of handwriting and hand printing characteristics which led me to the opinion that this exhibit had been prepared by lee harvey oswald. mr. eisenberg. mr. cadigan, i now hand you commission exhibit no. , a vaccination certificate, a purported vaccination certificate, signed by "a. j. hidell," and i ask you whether you have examined that item? mr. cadigan. yes; i have. mr. eisenberg. now, this bears writing on the outside and the inside. have you attempted to determine whether that writing is the writing of lee harvey oswald? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. what is your conclusion? mr. cadigan. that the hand printing and the oswald signature were written by lee harvey oswald, again based on the presence of the same combination of individual handwriting and hand printing characteristics. mr. eisenberg. have you taken photographs of this exhibit? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. those will be cadigan exhibits nos. and . (the documents referred to were marked cadigan exhibits nos. and .) mr. cadigan. i would point out that these represent only a portion of the original document, since for demonstration purposes the lower printed blank is not included in these exhibits. mr. eisenberg. now, the document as we see it now exhibits extremely faint writing. can you explain the reason for that? mr. cadigan. yes; this is due to treatment of the card for latent fingerprints by chemical process which bleaches and makes inks run. mr. eisenberg. was the document treated to restore the original color after it had been treated for fingerprints? mr. cadigan. no; from looking at this, it has been desilvered, but it has not been completely desilvered since parts of the stains of the chemical treatment remain. mr. eisenberg. when you first saw the document and made your examination, was the document in its original condition, that is, had it been treated yet for fingerprints? mr. cadigan. i never saw the original. mr. eisenberg. you never saw the original? mr. cadigan. no; i had a xerox copy of the original exhibit. i did not see this original exhibit. mr. eisenberg. you said before you had examined this exhibit? mr. cadigan. to be more exact, i examined a xerox copy of this exhibit. mr. eisenberg. do you know who prepared the xerox copy? mr. cadigan. it was submitted by our dallas office. mr. eisenberg. was this a copy of the front and the back? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. and are your photographs of the xerox or of the original? mr. cadigan. they are made from the xerox. mr. eisenberg. is this the first time you saw the original? mr. cadigan. i believe it is. mr. eisenberg. based upon your examination of the original at this point, and a comparison of the photograph of the xerox copies, would you conclude that the xerox copies had been made before the document had been treated for fingerprints? mr. cadigan. very definitely. mr. eisenberg. could you note a few of the points which led you to your conclusion concerning the handwriting appearing on the documents you photographed as cadigan exhibits nos. and ? mr. cadigan. yes; the handwritten signature "lee h. oswald" is written in a very distinctive manner. the "l" with its rather long beginning stroke, and its narrow upper, and the lower loop, is almost in the shape of a triangle. the large loop formation at the top of the "o" leading into the letter "s" and the loop at the base of the "s" is almost a carbon copy of the same characteristic appearing on cadigan exhibit no. , page . and again, the narrow "l" and relatively large "d" with a very pronounced ending stroke on the "d" is typical of the manner in which this man writes his signature. so also in the hand printing, on cadigan exhibit no. , we see the "lee" and the "oswald," the little hook at the start of the "l" and the reverse curves at the base of both the "l" and the following "ee's." again, we see the use of the lowercase "l" and the lowercase "d" in the formation of "oswald," whereas the rest of the letters are capital letters. here, again, the presence of the same combination of characteristics led me to the opinion that this writing had been prepared by lee harvey oswald. mr. eisenberg. does that include the signature "a. j. hidell"? mr. cadigan. no; it does not. this signature is distorted, and the standards, the known standards of lee harvey oswald i had available for comparison would not justify any opinion concerning this particular signature. mr. eisenberg. did you attempt to compare it with the questioned items which you had, theretofore, identified? mr. cadigan. yes; without reaching any opinion one way or the other. mr. eisenberg. would you conclude that it was not written by lee harvey oswald? mr. cadigan. no; i would not. mr. eisenberg. does it bear any similarities to oswald's handwriting at any point? mr. cadigan. i didn't observe any that i thought were sufficiently significant in characteristics to warrant pointing out. it is a question of judgment as to how you evaluate a given characteristic. i don't see, and do not see now, any characteristic worthy of mention to either say oswald did or didn't do it. mr. eisenberg. i hand you commission exhibit no. , consisting of a rubber stamping kit, and ask you whether you have examined that stamping kit. mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. did you attempt to determine whether the stamping on the document which you have photographed as cadigan exhibit no. , was produced by the rubber stamp kit, exhibit no. ? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. what conclusion did you reach? mr. cadigan. i couldn't reach any conclusion because the exhibit that i had, and from which cadigan exhibit no. was made, is a xerox copy, and is not adequate for the rubber stamp examination of this kind. mr. eisenberg. did you see anything which led you to believe that the stamp on on the document you examined could not have been made by exhibit no. ? rather than answer that question, could you undertake to perform an examination based upon the original? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. at a subsequent time? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. and you will supply us with the results of that by letter? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. i now hand you commission exhibit no. , consisting of a photograph of a card, "fair play for cuba committee, new orleans chapter, l. h. oswald," with oswald's signature, or a signature purporting to be lee h. oswald's, and the signature "a. j. hidell"; and commission exhibit no. , which appears to be similar to the photograph exhibit no. , except that there is no signature apparent in the space where the signature a. j. hidell appears in exhibit no , and i ask you whether you have examined these two items. mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. is exhibit no. a photograph of exhibit no. ? mr. cadigan. it is. mr. eisenberg. exhibit no. is seriously discolored now and does not have the words "a. j. hidell" apparent. can you explain how that came about? mr. cadigan. yes; the original commission exhibit no. had been treated for latent fingerprints, and this is a chemical process which has removed the ink of the signature. however, on examination under strong side lighting and using low-power magnification, portions of the letters "a," "j," and "h," of the signature of the chapter president can be discerned, and are in the same place on the photograph, commission exhibit no. , as on the original, commission exhibit no. . furthermore, a comparison of the writing and the rubber stamp, especially with reference to the position of these with respect to lines and printing and other fixed points on the card, definitely shows that commission exhibit no. is a photograph of exhibit no. , and made before it was treated for latent fingerprints. mr. eisenberg. now, apart from this, did you take the photograph, exhibit no. ? mr. cadigan. no; the photograph was made in our photographic laboratory. mr. eisenberg. but you did see exhibit no. , before it had been discolored, did you not? mr. cadigan. i don't recall at this time. it may well be that i did, but i have no independent recollection of it now. mr. eisenberg. so that your testimony that exhibit no. is a photograph of exhibit no. is based upon your evaluation of the two items as they exist now rather than upon recollection of exhibit no. before it was discolored? mr. cadigan. that is true. mr. eisenberg. do you know why exhibit no. was not reprocessed or desilvered? mr. cadigan. no, this is a latent fingerprint matter. mr. eisenberg. can you explain why the signature, "lee h. oswald" or rather l. h. oswald is apparent, while the signature "a. j. hidell" is not? mr. cadigan. different inks. mr. eisenberg. some inks are more soluble in the solution used for fingerprint tests than others? mr. cadigan. definitely. mr. eisenberg. other commission exhibits, specifically nos. , , and also appear to have been treated for fingerprints? mr. cadigan. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. exhibit no. has been desilvered? mr. cadigan. desilvered, and exhibits nos. and are still in their original silvered condition. mr. eisenberg. did you see these items before they were treated for fingerprints? mr. cadigan. i know i saw exhibit no. before it was treated for fingerprints. as to exhibits nos. and , i don't know at this time. mr. eisenberg. are the photographs which you produced photographs of the items before they were treated for fingerprints or after? mr. cadigan. yes; before they were treated for fingerprints. in other words, it is regular customary practice to photograph an exhibit before it is treated for latents for exactly this reason, that in the course of the treatment there may be some loss of detail, either total or partial. mr. eisenberg. did you take the photographs? mr. cadigan. no. mr. eisenberg. are you referring to the photographs which you produced at an earlier point? mr. cadigan. the photographs that i have produced here today, the various enlargements, were made from negatives. these negatives, in turn, were made at the time the original exhibits were photographed, and this would be before latent fingerprint treatment. mr. eisenberg. i asked you when i introduced those exhibits whether they had been prepared by you or under your supervision? mr. cadigan. that is true. mr. eisenberg. you meant, then, that they were prepared under your supervision, or did you mean that they were prepared by you in the sense that you made the enlargement from the negative? mr. cadigan. no; they were prepared under my supervision. in other words, i maintain all of the negatives in connection with the document aspects of this file in my room, under lock and key, at all times. i pull the negatives that i want enlarged, and i prepare a photograph requisition, take it down to our photographers, tell them what i want, and then later go back and pick up the enlargements, and check them to be sure they are just what i want. mr. eisenberg. what about the negative itself? can you state of your own knowledge whether the negative itself is of the original? mr. cadigan. only, insofar, that i know that on november , when the vast bulk of this material came in, that it was photographed. some of these items i saw before they were photographed, and some afterward. but the exact sequence to select one item out of four or five hundred, i cannot, in all honesty, say i definitely recall seeing this before it was photographed. mr. eisenberg. can you explain what the procedure is when a document came in involving the assassination? mr. cadigan. initially, the first big batch of evidence was brought into the laboratory on november of and this consisted of many, many items. mr. eisenberg. ? mr. cadigan. november , . it was a very large quantity of evidence that was brought in. there were several agent examiners available to evaluate this material. there were supervisory officials, there were representatives from our internal security division, all of whom had an interest in this matter, and it was decided they wanted certain items treated for latent fingerprints. the basic rule is always that before an exhibit is treated for latent fingerprints it is photographed, and that is what was done in this case. mr. eisenberg. what happens to the negative after it is photographed? were they all given to you? mr. cadigan. yes; the negatives that pertain to the document aspects i took over and maintained under my control. negatives pertaining to firearms evidence or hairs or fibers, they were turned over to mr. frazier. mr. eisenberg. so under the regular procedure, as soon as the document came in it would be photographed, before it was treated for latents and the negative would be turned over to you? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. so at least if the procedure had been followed, any negative you had would be a negative of a document before it had been treated for fingerprints, is that correct? mr. cadigan. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. now, returning to commission exhibits nos. and , did you prepare a photograph which would show the remnants of the signature a. j. hidell on the commission exhibit no. ? mr. cadigan. no. mr. eisenberg. is the preparation of such a photograph possible? mr. cadigan. i doubt it very much, because the indentations are so faint that the enlargement would serve no useful purpose. actually, the best examination is by low-power magnification under the proper lighting. mr. eisenberg. did you attempt to determine whether the signature of lee h. oswald on this card was written by lee h. oswald? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. what was your conclusion? mr. cadigan. that the lee h. oswald signature on commission exhibit no. was written by lee h. oswald. mr. eisenberg. what about the signature "a. j. hidell"? mr. cadigan. i was unable to reach a conclusion. first of all, at the time i compared this signature the known standards of lee harvey oswald were inadequate for this particular comparison. i did, however, note that there were certain differences in this signature that indicate the possibility of someone other than oswald having prepared it. but in my opinion, the characteristics i observed were not of sufficient weight for a positive opinion in this regard. mr. eisenberg. could you note those characteristics? mr. cadigan. yes; i think the capital letter "a" and the capital letter "h" in "hidell" are different from the "a's" that oswald makes, that appear in the enlarged photographs, cadigan exhibits nos. through . mr. eisenberg. anything else? mr. cadigan. i think the lower case "d," especially in the rounded shape of the body of it and the relatively short height of the staff, so that the staff compared to the body is very short. the "j" is made different or in a different manner than oswald regularly makes or usually makes his "j's" in the known standards, but again it is a question of judgment as to whether you believe a combination of characteristics is enough to either eliminate or identify. in this instance, in my opinion, these differences point to the possibility of another writer other than oswald. mr. eisenberg. you indicated before, also, that there was another ink used. mr. cadigan. that is correct. this, of course, in and of itself, is of no consequence, since the same person can use two different pens, so the color of the ink would not be, in my mind, significant. mr. eisenberg. does that signature appear to have been written naturally? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. at normal speed? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. any evidence of retouching? mr. cadigan. no. mr. eisenberg. generally, were the signatures and other handwritings in the questioned documents you have reviewed in this deposition today written naturally? mr. cadigan. with the exception of the "hidell" signature on his certificate of vaccination. there is, in my opinion, distortion present there. but, by and large, in fact in almost all of the various handwritings, hand printings, and signatures, there is no evidence of disguise or distortion, in my opinion. mr. eisenberg. what type of evidence indicates disguise or distortion? mr. cadigan. distortion and disguise can take many forms. it can be in the form of a change in slant, a deliberate malformation of the individual letters. it can be shown in broken or interrupted strokes. it can be shown in waves or wiggles in the line itself which should not normally be there. it may be occasioned by a person using other than normal hand, a left-handed person writing with his right hand or a right-handed person writing with his left hand. all these introduce elements of distoration or disguise. the extent of it can only be determined by comparing a given writing with known writings, and observing the characteristics present, and on that basis you can then formulate an opinion as to whether or not there is any appreciable amount of distortion or disguise. mr. eisenberg. how would you evaluate the possibility of another person having simulated the handwriting of lee harvey oswald in these questioned documents? mr. cadigan. i don't think there is any possibility. mr. eisenberg. on what do you base that? mr. cadigan. i base that on years experience and judgment and the examination of the documents and the various writings involved in this instance. mr. eisenberg. and do i understand that if that had happened, the person would have left evidence behind which you would have detected? mr. cadigan. in my opinion, yes. mr. eisenberg. and that would be in what form? mr. cadigan. it would be in many forms. failure to incorporate into the writings things that should be there, and including in the writings things that are not in oswald's writing, differences in slant, spacing, proportions of letters, both to other letters and proportions of letters within themselves, the adoption of the various variations that you find in the known writings. when the amount of writing approaches the amount involved here, there is a large, a relatively large volume of questioned writings. the possibilities of successful or undetectible forgery, in my opinion, are nil. mr. eisenberg. mr. cadigan, i now hand you commission exhibit no. , which is a note in the russian language in cyrillic print, and ask you whether you have examined that item? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. i now hand you commission exhibit nos. , , and , consisting of various notes in the cyrillic language, rather in the russian language in cyrillic print, and ask you whether you have examined those notes? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. who is the purported signer of those notes, exhibits nos. , , and ? mr. cadigan. from the translation that i read these are purportedly written by lee harvey oswald. mr. eisenberg. now, for the record, these have also been identified by marina as having been written by lee harvey oswald. and these are signed alek in some or all cases? mr. cadigan. yes; they are signed a-l-e-k, alek in all three instances. mr. eisenberg. again, for the record, this is a name which was used for oswald during his period of staying in the soviet union. have you attempted to determine whether commission exhibit no. was written by the person who wrote commission exhibits nos. , , and ? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. and what was your conclusion? mr. cadigan. that commission exhibit no. was written by lee harvey oswald. mr. eisenberg. have you prepared photographs of commission exhibits nos. , , and ? mr. cadigan. yes; of the letters contained in those exhibits. mr. eisenberg. i will mark those as cadigan exhibits nos. , , , and . (the documents referred to were marked cadigan exhibits nos. , , , and .) mr. eisenberg. have you also taken a photograph of commission exhibit no ? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. i will mark that as cadigan exhibit no. ---- mr. cadigan. front and back. mr. eisenberg. and cadigan exhibit no. , representing respectively the back and front of commission exhibit no. . (the documents referred to were marked cadigan exhibits nos. and .) mr. eisenberg. now, by use of photographs cadigan exhibits nos. through , could you explain some of the reasons which led you to your conclusion? mr. cadigan. yes; and i would point out that in addition to the four enlargements written in russian, i also used cadigan exhibits or the documents represented by cadigan exhibits nos. through , the known standards of oswald, since there are english letters interspersed with the russian writing on commission exhibit no. . thus, for example, in the second line in cadigan exhibit no. appears the word "to" which is directly comparable to the same word appearing in cadigan exhibits nos. through . this is characterized by a long sweeping upstroke, and the recurving downstroke cuts the staff about in half. and the "o" is without any tail, and it is relatively small and set fairly close into the staff. the "t" crossing is rather long and fairly high. i noted these same characteristics in cadigan exhibits nos. through . further, there is the wording in english, "red cross" appearing about two-thirds of the way down the side of the page beginning with the numeral , and here, again, i noted the same characteristics in the english hand printing in cadigan exhibits nos. through . again, the use of the small "e" and the small "d" in conjunction with the capital "r," and then in the word "cross" he has used the capital letters. on the face of the commission exhibit no. appear the printed english letters "ervay" which are almost directly comparable with the name "lee harvey oswald" in cadigan exhibit no. . the e here is characterized by the little loop at the base of the staff. the "r" has a flat closed loop on the left side of the staff. the "y" is constructed of two strokes, almost a perfect "v" shape for the body and a tail slanting back away from it. the letter "p" or what appears to be the letter "p," indicated by the roman numeral and a red arrow, is similar to the english "p," characterized by a long narrow staff without much of a loop. the body of the letter extends above the staff and the base is open. the bottom of the letter is not closed in. the numeral " " on the chart cadigan exhibit no. points to a russian character which resembles somewhat the english letter "g," the capital letter g. this is characterized by a rather large elongated loop along the left side of the upstroke, and the finishing stroke is short and straight. the numeral " " in red on cadigan exhibit no. points to the russian word which resembles the english word "tbi." the "t" has a very long beginning upstroke. the crossing of the "t" is high and is at the top of the letter. the b is formed with a straight staff on the back side, and there is a well spaced connection to the following letter which resembles the english letter "i." i further noted that on this same side of the document shown in cadigan exhibit no. in the second to the last line from the bottom appears the combination "exa," which is directly comparable with the "exa" in "texas" appearing on the photograph cadigan exhibits nos. , , and , among others. again this characteristic way of making the "x" is almost like a "u" or an open "o." there is a little extra stroke that breaks off of the "x" so that instead of looking like "exa" it has the appearance of "eva" with a diagonal stroke through the "v." the number " " in red on cadigan exhibit no. points to the combination which looks like the english letters "ha," where the same two letters appear on the photographs, cadigan exhibits nos. and , the "h" being made in two roughly parallel straight strokes. the "a" is almost in the form of a circle, and the tail of the "a" runs out horizontally to the line of writing. on cadigan exhibit no. , the number " " in red with an arrow points to the combination of letters which resemble the english letters "tak," and this same combination or the same letters appear on cadigan exhibit no. . again, the "t" has a rather long beginning stroke. the crossing is high and long, and i noted that the "k" in both instances is made in a similar manner. the figure " " on cadigan exhibit no. also points to a different style of k, or what resembles the english letter "k," in that it is composed of a straight staff and the body or the right portion of the letter is almost the shape of a v tilted on its side. because of this combination of characteristics, as well as many others, i reached the opinion that government's exhibit no. was written by lee harvey oswald. mr. eisenberg. commission exhibit no. , that is? mr. cadigan. yes, of which cadigan exhibits nos. and are photographic enlargements. mr. eisenberg. i have no further questions, mr. cadigan. thank you very much. you have been extremely helpful. affidavit of earlene roberts the following affidavit was executed by earlene roberts on december , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy state of texas, _county of dallas, ss_: i, earlene roberts, after being duly sworn, do depose and state: i live at beckley, dallas, texas, where i serve as housekeeper for a rooming house owned by mr. & mrs. a. c. johnson. on friday, november , , at approximately : pm i was sitting in the living room watching television about the president's assassination when a man i knew as o. h. lee, but who has since been identified as lee harvey oswald, came into the front door and went to his room. oswald did not have a jacket when he came in the house and i don't recall what type of clothing he was wearing. oswald went to his room and was only there a very few minutes before coming out. i noticed he had a jacket he was putting on. i recall the jacket was a dark color and it was the type that zips up the front. he was zipping the jacket up as he left. oswald went out the front door. a moment later i looked out the window. i saw lee oswald standing on the curb at the bus stop just to the right, and on the same side of the street as our house. i just glanced out the window that once. i don't know how long lee oswald stood at the curb nor did i see which direction he went when he left there. about thirty minutes later three dallas policemen came to the house looking for lee harvey oswald. we didn't know who lee harvey oswald was until sometime later his picture was flashed on television. i then let the dallas policemen in the room occupied by lee oswald. while the dallas police were searching the room two fbi agents came in. the police and fbi agents took everything in the room that belong to lee oswald and also took our pillow case and two towels and wash cloths. i have made this statement, consisting of three pages, to special agents william n. carter and arthur w. blake of the u.s. secret service. i have read this statement over and i find it to be true to the best of my knowledge. signed this th day of december . (s) earlene roberts, earlene roberts. affidavit of ralph w. yarborough the following affidavit was executed by ralph w. yarborough on july , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy district of columbia, _ss_: in response to the oral request of one of the attorneys for the commission that i send you an affidavit for inclusion in the record of the assassination of president john f. kennedy, i make the following statement: on november , , as the president and mrs. kennedy rode through the streets of dallas, i was in the second car behind them. the first car behind the presidential car was the secret service car; the second car behind them was vice-president lyndon johnson's car. the driver and a secret service agent were on the front seat of the vice-president's car. vice-president lyndon b. johnson sat on the right side of the rear seat of the automobile, mrs. lyndon b. johnson was in the center of the rear seat, while i sat on the left side of the rear seat. after the presidential motorcade had passed through the heart of downtown dallas, experiencing an exceptionally warm and friendly greeting, as the motorcade went down the slope of elm street toward the railroad underpass, a rifle shot was heard by me; a loud blast, close by. i have handled firearms for fifty year, and thought immediately that it was a rifle shot. when the noise of the shot was heard, the motorcade slowed to what seemed to me a complete stop (though it could have been a near stop). after what i took to be about three seconds, another shot boomed out, and after what i took to be one-half the time between the first and second shots (calculated now, this would have put the third shot about one and one-half seconds after the second shot--by my estimate--to me there seemed to be a long time between the first and second shots, a much shorter time between the second and third shots--these were my impressions that day), a third shot was fired. after the third shot was fired, but only after the third shot was fired, the cavalcade speeded up, gained speed rapidly, and roared away to the parkland hospital. i heard three shots and no more. all seemed to come from my right rear. i saw people fall to the ground on the embankment to our right, at about the time of or after the second shot, but before the cavalcade started up and raced away. due to the second car, with the secret service men standing on steps on the sides of it, i could not see what was happening in the presidential car during the shooting itself. some of the secret service men looked backward and to the right, in the general direction from which the rifle explosions seemed to come. after the shooting, one of the secret service men sitting down in the car in front of us pulled out an automatic rifle or weapon and looked backward. however, all of the secret service men seemed to me to respond very slowly, with no more than a puzzled look. in fact, until the automatic weapon was uncovered, i had been lulled into a sense of false hope for the president's safety, by the lack of motion, excitement, or apparent visible knowledge by the secret service men, that anything so dreadful was happening. knowing something of the training that combat infantrymen and marines receive, i am amazed at the lack of instantaneous response by the secret service, when the rifle fire began. i make this statement in this paragraph reluctantly, not to add to the anguish of anyone, but it is my firm opinion, and i write it out in the hope that it might be of service in the better protection of our presidents in the future. after we went under the underpass, on the upward slope i could see over the heads of the occupants of the second car (secret service car) and could see an agent lying across the back or trunk of the presidential car, with his feet to the right side of the car, his head at the left side. he beat the back of the car with one hand, his face contorted by grief, anguish, and despair, and i knew from that instant that some terrible loss had been suffered. on arrival at the hospital, i told newsmen that three rifle shots had been fired. there was then no doubt in my mind that the shots were rifle shots, and i had neither then or now any doubts that any other shots were fired. in my opinion only three shots were fired. the attached photograph from pages and of the _saturday evening post_ of december , , shows the motorcade, as i remember it, an instant after the first shot. [photograph is yarborough exhibit a.] given and sworn to this th day of july, , at washington, district of columbia. signed this th day of july . (s) ralph w. yarborough, ralph w. yarborough. testimony of kenneth p. o'donnell the testimony of kenneth p. o'donnell was taken at : p.m., on may , , at the white house office, washington, d.c., by messrs. norman redlich and arlen specter, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. specter. would you rise, please? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you shall give in this deposition proceeding before the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. o'donnell. i do. mr. specter. mr. o'donnell, the purpose of our asking you to testify today is to obtain whatever knowledge you have about the origin of the trip to texas by president kennedy, the events during the trip, and the trip back to washington, d.c., on november . with that general statement of purpose, i will ask you if you have any objection to giving a deposition at this time? mr. o'donnell. i do not. mr. specter. would you state your full name for the record, please? mr. o'donnell. kenneth p. o'donnell. mr. specter. what were your duties on november , ? mr. o'donnell. i was special assistant to the president. i was in charge of his appointments and any itineraries that he might have. mr. specter. how long had you served in that capacity? mr. o'donnell. i served as special assistant to the president since the inauguration, january , , with the same duties. mr. specter. were you a party to the original conversations and decision for president kennedy to make a trip to texas in november of ? mr. o'donnell. i was. mr. specter. would you outline the origin of that trip to texas, please? mr. o'donnell. the origin of the trip i would think came from a conversation between the president, then vice president johnson, and myself. it concerned president kennedy's desire, and president johnson's desire that he come to texas and spend some time there, looking forward to the campaign of , in which texas would play a very vital role in president kennedy's view. mr. specter. approximately when did that first conversation occur, mr. o'donnell? mr. o'donnell. we had been discussing this for almost or months, but the time had never seemed quite right, either in the vice president's mind or in governor connally's mind. governor connally and the vice president had discussed this. they arrived at a general agreement that it be done some time in the latter part of the month of november. i think this decision probably came in october, some time in october. mr. specter. when had president kennedy been in dallas prior to the trip of november ? mr. o'donnell. the last time the president had been in dallas was as a candidate for the presidency. i correct myself. he had been to--visit speaker rayburn in the hospital. i was not on that trip. mr. specter. then aside from the trip to see speaker rayburn, in the hospital, had the president been in dallas at all since the campaign of ? mr. o'donnell. he had not. mr. specter. do you know approximately when it was that president kennedy visited speaker rayburn in the hospital in dallas? mr. o'donnell. i don't know exactly. it would be just before he passed away. mr. specter. does october sound about right to you? mr. o'donnell. it sounds about right. mr. specter. and how many times had president kennedy been to texas between the campaign of and november , if you know? mr. o'donnell. well, he had been to the speaker's funeral at bonham. he had been to houston, to see the new space center, and also he spoke at rice stadium. and he had been to el paso, on a military inspection tour. mr. specter. are those, then, all the trips he made, to your knowledge? mr. o'donnell. that is all i can recollect at the moment. mr. specter. in a general way, what was the purpose of the president's trip to texas in november of ? mr. o'donnell. well, he hadn't conducted any political activities in texas. there were great controversies existing. there was a party problem in texas that the president and the vice president felt he could be helpful, as both sides of the controversy were supporting president kennedy, and they felt he could be a bridge between these two groups, and this would be helpful in the election of . i think that is the major reason for the trip. mr. specter. was president kennedy motivated, to any extent at all, by his interest in making himself as president available to the people generally in every section of the country, including texas? mr. o'donnell. very definitely. the president's views of his responsibilities as president of the united states were that he meet the people, that he go out to their homes and see them, and allow them to see him, and discuss, if possible, the views of the world as he sees it, the problems of the country as he sees them. and he felt that leaving washington for the president of the united states was most necessary--not only for the people, but for the president himself, that he expose himself to the actual basic problems that were disturbing the american people. it helped him in his job here, he was able to come back here with a fresh view of many things. i think he felt very strongly that the president ought to get out of washington, and go meet the people on a regular basis. mr. specter. did he enjoy that exposure, strictly as a personal matter? mr. o'donnell. he enjoyed it very much. the president--liked people, and he liked to mingle with people. mr. specter. when were the specific dates of november and november finally set as being the precise times for the trip to texas? mr. o'donnell. well, i am not clear in my recollection of that. i would think some time early in november. i know thanksgiving was one of the problems we had to work with. we decided that would be the best time to go, in that general area, and we, in general, would keep a file--once we agreed we were going to texas--we would keep a file on all the speaking engagements, all the invitations the president had received. i would go to that file and select some that might look promising. one of them that i recollect was an invitation from congressman albert thomas, or his committee, that was giving him an appreciation dinner--not the congressman himself. and the president was very fond of congressman thomas, he was most helpful to him, and i knew he would want to go, if this was at all possible. i would think that probably had more to do with setting the actual definite dates of the st and d. mr. specter. when, if you recall, was the secret service notified of the forthcoming trip to texas? mr. o'donnell. i would think they would be notified around the first week in november. the general desire is that they have the specific information at least on the places that he might go weeks prior to the trip. mr. specter. and who among the members of the presidential staff would be charged with the responsibility for coordinating the trip with the secret service? mr. o'donnell. that would be my responsibility. the manner in which we would set it up would be that i would notify the head here, who is gerry behn, and gerry behn would ask me when we were sending people down, so that his people and our people could go down at the same time. and i recollect that jerry bruno was one of them. the first step would be to confer with the governor, go over the general proposals that the governor would make, and then bring it back to me. and i would go over it with the governor and the vice president and the president. mr. specter. what planning was undertaken with respect to the determination of the motorcade route through dallas? mr. o'donnell. well, i think once we arrived--we chose the four cities we were going into. and then the advance men and the secret service went out. then we would work backwards from where we had to be at what time, and what things we had agreed we would do there. and the original--dallas, as i recollect, was going to be an evening affair. the governor thought the evening affair should be in austin, and that we should hit dallas around noontime. mr. specter. when you say the evening affair, what are you referring to specifically there? mr. o'donnell. there was a political dinner which was to be conducted at austin that evening, at the end of which the president was going with the vice president to the ranch. this was a political fundraising dinner. mr. specter. now, had there been any conversation given at all to omitting a motorcade through dallas? mr. o'donnell. none. mr. specter. and what were the considerations behind the decision on having a motorcade through dallas? mr. o'donnell. well, we had a motorcade wherever we went. particularly when we went to a large city, the purpose of going there was to give the president as much exposure to the people of dallas and vice versa, the people of dallas to the president, as possible. the speaking engagement was a luncheon which was rather limited. and the president would not want to leave dallas feeling that the only ones that were able to see him were a rather select group. so it would be automatic, and we would not even proceed with instructions, that the advance man and the secret service would, within the time allotted to them--would bring the president into dallas, through an area which exposes him to the greatest number of people. mr. specter. when was a decision made, if you recall, as to the precise route that the motorcade would follow through dallas? mr. o'donnell. i don't recall. i would think it would be perhaps a week before the final decision was made. the president would not involve himself in anything like this. once we agreed on where he would go, that was my responsibility to work it out. the normal course of events--they would say to me, "do you want a motorcade in dallas?" i would say, "yes; this is how much time you have got." they would work out a motorcade. the secret service would time the route. once they had worked out this point, they would come back to me and say, "we have accomplished the purpose you want." the secret service would say it takes so much time, the governor would say "you have to be here at a certain time." once all those are put together, the route is laid out and accepted. mr. specter. do you recall how long after the determination of the motorcade route that that information was transmitted to the press in dallas? mr. o'donnell. i don't. i would think on the transmission to the press that that would not come from here anyway. that would come from down there. i would think the governor's office would probably put that out. we would under normal circumstances inform through mr. salinger's office, i would inform him of the trip, and then i would give him a schedule that is given to me by the secret service, which would give the times, but no routes--times and locations, and would go along that he would arrive at o'clock, address such and such a group at o'clock. so we would not normally be privy--they could be saying to me, "we are going down th street"--it would not mean anything to me. so i would think that our advance man and the governor's advance man would make a decision on when they were going to announce the route. i would think that was almost normal. you might say you wanted to do it days ahead of time in new york, and the local fellow would really determine it--"down here we do it this way." mr. specter. would the route be disclosed to the press as a matter of normal procedure in general as soon as it was ascertained? mr. o'donnell. yes. mr. specter. were there any factors peculiar to dallas which delayed the determination of the motorcade route? mr. o'donnell. the only factor that really did hold up a final decision was we had not been able to finally agree on where he would end up and where he would deliver the speech. there was a controversy between the governor, and between some of the local democratic figures, and between our people, as to whether the place finally selected was the best place for the president to give the address. the governor felt very strongly on it. and we finally acquiesced to his views. but i would think that came rather late in the game, and it would have altered the route quite dramatically. mr. specter. would you tell us if there was any consideration at all given to omitting dallas as a stop on the trip in texas? mr. o'donnell. i don't think so; no. i would think that the president would not have--once he had agreed to go to three or four other cities, that he could not possibly go to texas and avoid dallas. it would cause more controversy--and it would not accomplish for us what really was the long-range purpose of the visit. mr. specter. and the long-range purpose was what, sir? mr. o'donnell. was to attempt to in some way bridge the gap between the two political groups in texas who were at odds, and to assist the president and prepare for the campaign as best he could at this period of time. mr. specter. what was the president's reaction towards dallas generally, if you know, with respect to the current publicity about, say, ambassador stevenson's reception there? mr. o'donnell. well, he was not in anyway concerned about it. i think that the president was a very charitable man. he felt that really the picture of dallas as painted--and as a reflection of their press in many ways--was not the real picture of dallas; that they were americans like everybody else, that there were good and bad, and the fact that shouting people didn't portray the city of dallas. he had been there in the campaign when the vice president had been spit upon, and the president received one of the finest receptions he ever got. he didn't carry the city. they opposed him. but they were not particularly different than anybody else. and that wouldn't concern him, and i think, very frankly, the more difficult it was the more he liked to go there. but i think he generally felt that the loud noises emanating from dallas were a very small minority, and so reflected. mr. specter. had there been any discussion about limiting the trip to texas to a day venture? mr. o'donnell. i don't recollect any. i do know one of the original thoughts was that he go to this dinner in austin, which was a political dinner. whether there was any consideration in some other people's minds that he just go in for the dinner and leave, i know he, number , would not consider it. mr. specter. why not? mr. o'donnell. he would not consider it because he had a great aversion to going into any place to a fundraising political dinner in which he felt that the people that were there were not really representative of the people, but were politically committed people, where it was a business meeting. and he thought this reflected to some degree on the office of the presidency, that on his only visit to texas, or any other state in years, that he came to raise money for a political party, that he owed to the people to expose himself to them. so he he felt it was a duty of the presidency to expose himself to the public. so he would not go to any place on a purely--but he certainly considered there were some political problems in texas--that would also be in his judgment a bad political mistake. so i don't think there was ever any question that he would go some place else. mr. specter. did you accompany the president on all phases of the trip to texas? mr. o'donnell. i was with him when he left. the only time that i was not with him was at congressman thomas' dinner. he went to the dinner. we ate at the hotel and went directly to the airport. mr. specter. when did you depart, then, from washington, on that trip to texas? mr. o'donnell. well, we left that morning by helicopter from the lawn. i think the records show it is : . but the schedule was on time, certainly arriving there, and, as i recollect, we were on time pretty much the whole way as the schedule would reflect. mr. specter. and from the helicopter at the white house lawn, where was your first stop by helicopter? mr. o'donnell. we stopped and boarded _air force _ at andrews air force base. mr. specter. would the time of a.m., as reflected in the records, be accurate as your point of departure, then, from andrews air force base? mr. o'donnell. yes; i would think it would be. mr. specter. and your first stop in texas was what? mr. o'donnell. san antonio. mr. specter. arrival time of : p.m.--would that be an accurate time of arrival, within a few minutes, say, of when you actually set down in san antonio? mr. o'donnell. i would think that is right. as i say, we were on schedule, and the schedule would indicate we were due to arrive at : . mr. specter. what were the activities at san antonio, tex? mr. o'donnell. we motorcaded through san antonio and went to the aerospace medical center, where the president made a speech, and from there to a second airport. we had moved _air force _ from one airfield to another, on the other side of the city. mr. specter. at the aerospace center, was there a dedication there of some new facilities? mr. o'donnell. yes. mr. specter. was there any other public appearance, then, besides the one you mentioned, in san antonio? mr. o'donnell. no. mr. specter. to where did you go from san antonio? mr. o'donnell. we flew to houston. mr. specter. and about what time did you arrive in houston? mr. o'donnell. i would have to look at the record. mr. specter. was it late in the afternoon on november ? mr. o'donnell. late in the afternoon, i would think around or o'clock. mr. specter. and what were the activities in houston? mr. o'donnell. we drove from the airfield into the hotel. as i recollect, there were very large crowds. mr. specter. was that a motorcade procession, also? mr. o'donnell. motorcade; and particularly as we got in downtown houston, the crowds were very large, and very enthusiastic. getting in the hotel was somewhat of a chore. mr. specter. what public appearances did the president then make in houston? mr. o'donnell. the president spoke at the appreciation dinner for congressman thomas. the records will show the location. i did not accompany him. and i went directly from the hotel to the airport, and met him as he got aboard the plane. mr. specter. approximately when did the presidential party depart from houston? mr. o'donnell. well, i would have to guess again. i would think around : or o'clock. the alternative was staying overnight in houston, getting in early in the morning--or getting in to fort worth late at night, and allowing the president a little more rest, and we selected going to fort worth that night. mr. specter. what were the public appearances made by the president, then, in fort worth, tex.? mr. o'donnell. he spoke at o'clock that morning at a breakfast which was given by the business community, as i remember, came back up to his room, chatted for a few minutes, went back down. it had been raining. the sun had just come out. he went out and spoke to a group assembled in the parking lot and went back and departed for--came back upstairs, we chatted for a few minutes again, and then came back down and departed for carswell. mr. specter. and how did the president travel out of fort worth? mr. o'donnell. he left fort worth in an open car, traveled by car to carswell. mr. specter. and from carswell, what was his mode of travel? mr. o'donnell. _air force _ to love field, dallas? mr. specter. what were the weather conditions on the arrival at love field in dallas? mr. o'donnell. the weather was clear, sunny, excellent weather. mr. specter. what decision had been made as to whether to have an open car in dallas? mr. o'donnell. the decision had been made to have an open--if the weather was good, he would ride in an open car. mr. specter. and do you recall who made that decision? mr. o'donnell. well, i would make that decision under normal circumstances. but it was almost an automatic decision, that whenever the weather was clear, he preferred to ride in an open car. mr. specter. do you recall at approximately what time the presidential party arrived at love field, tex.--love field, dallas, tex.? mr. o'donnell. i would think it would be around , : . we were on time. we always allowed a few minutes at the airport, because he always shook hands with the crowd. so we left--my recollection is that we departed from love field approximately according to the schedule. mr. specter. what were president kennedy's activities at love field? mr. o'donnell. he had no scheduled activities. it was a matter of assembling the motorcade. he got off _air force _, and he went over to the crowd that was gathered around the rail, shook hands, went up and down. mr. specter. what type of a crowd was it with respect to size? mr. o'donnell. it was a large crowd. mr. specter. would you tell us how the motorcade was constituted with respect to the general number of the cars and the way they were lined up, if you recall, please? mr. o'donnell. well, i can't go more than--i got into the second car, and i didn't really look behind me. there was some controversy as to what congressman sat in what car. we had a lot of congressmen with us and a lot of dignitaries, and there was a lot of juggling around, which mr. o'brien was more involved with than i was, as to where senator yarborough and the vice president and the congressman sat. but it was a lengthy motorcade, more lengthy than normal. we always tried to keep them down as much as possible. but because of the number of congressmen and the dignitaries involved. mr. specter. how many cars were there ahead of yours? mr. o'donnell. well, i think there was a scout car, which was the lead, the president's vehicle, and i was in the car right behind him, in the secret service followup car. mr. specter. who else besides you was in that car? mr. o'donnell. david powers was with me. all the rest were agents. mr. specter. do you recall whether anything unusual occurred on the trip from love field down to the center of dallas? mr. o'donnell. no; i thought it was normal--the crowds, going through the suburbs, were, i would say, from medium to heavy for that trip. i noted they were mostly white collar, mostly industrial places we passed by which i would say were highly technical. therefore, the crowd reflected a middle to an upper class type. they were not unfriendly nor terribly enthusiastic. they waved. but were reserved, i thought. mr. specter. where were you seated in the car? mr. o'donnell. i was seated in the front jump seat--the jump seat. mr. specter. on the left-hand side or the right-hand side? mr. o'donnell. left-hand side. mr. specter. and who sat on your immediate right? mr. o'donnell. mr. powers. mr. specter. how many agents were there in front of you? mr. o'donnell. well, there were the normal two or sometimes three in the front seat. i would not be clear as to how many there were. i would think there were about--just guessing--seven or eight agents in the car. some on the running board, some seated, depending on the speed of the motorcade, or the activity. mr. specter. was there a front seat in the car, immediately ahead of you? mr. o'donnell. yes. mr. specter. and was that occupied by secret service agents? mr. o'donnell. it was. mr. specter. and how about immediately to your rear? was there a rear seat? mr. o'donnell. there was a rear seat. there were agents in that--again depending on the speed of the motorcade they were either on the running board, or as it slows up and the crowds got larger the agents would get on the running board. but as it moved along rather rapidly, as it did on the way in, they were seated most of the time. mr. specter. do you recall whether or not the president's automobile made any stops en route from the airport into the downtown area? mr. o'donnell. i don't recollect, clearly. i would be surprised if it did not. but i don't have any clear recollection. mr. specter. was it a usual practice for the president to make a stop on the motorcade? mr. o'donnell. if the crowds got too large, he would stop, or if he saw some child had gone to some great extreme with a sign, he would sometimes stop. usually unless the crowds were particularly heavy, or indicated a need for a stop, he would not stop. mr. specter. and what was the nature of the crowd in downtown dallas? mr. o'donnell. the nature of the crowd was extremely heavy, one of the heaviest i have seen in any american city. mr. specter. how did they compare with the crowds during the campaign in dallas? mr. o'donnell. i would think probably heavier. but very close. they were both very large crowds, very enthusiastic. i think, as i have always noticed, to the president and candidate there is a different aura. but that would be the only difference i would notice in the crowd. there was a little bit more respect--still the same enthusiasm. at the last trip in dallas he stopped the motorcade every minutes--they mobbed the car. there was none of that. but they were in the middle of the street and off the sidewalks. so there was a very narrow lane to progress through. but they were still very orderly, but cheerful. mr. specter. did you have any specific reaction to the dallas crowd in terms of what your expectation might have been about dallas? mr. o'donnell. well, i was pleased with it. as a politician, i was particularly pleased with it. i thought we had accomplished what we had come to dallas to do, was, one, to establish the fact that the average person living in that city was no different than any other american, and that they respected and admired their president. and i felt one of the greatest things that does occur of a political nature is the congressmen and the political leaders who had also been reading the same newspaper about how unpopular he was, it is good for them to see it really is not true, it is a reflection of a very small minority, and that the president of the united states was extremely popular in dallas. and that was the basic reason we went. and as we finished through the business section of town, that was my pleased impression. mr. specter. do you recall the scene when you left the main street of downtown dallas, with respect specifically to the presence of a large building which was immediately ahead of the motorcade? mr. o'donnell. i did not. i was looking at the crowd. and i frankly didn't look at the building, except when there were people in the windows. and as we made that turn, i had been standing--i remember i sat down. and as far as i was concerned, that was the end--we were then going to the luncheon--and i didn't notice any building at all. mr. specter. were you familiar with the identity of the specific plaza there, being known as dealey plaza? mr. o'donnell. i was not. i afterward have reflected on it many times. mr. specter. tell us what occurred then as you made that turn away from the crowded downtown dallas area and headed toward the plaza area. mr. o'donnell. well, i sat down. i remember saying to dave powers that it was a fantastic crowd. he agreed. we turned. i remember the overpass. and then the shots occurred--which, at that time, i did not know were shots. my first impression was it was a firecracker. and then either somebody said, "he has been hit," or i noticed the slump--he had been waving out the right side of the car, and i noticed him slump over toward mrs. kennedy, and i realized then that they had been shots. but as fast as that realization occurred, i saw the third shot hit. it was such a perfect shot--i remember i blessed myself. i was rather convinced that was a fatal blow. mr. specter. when you say you made a turn, which way did the motorcade turn? mr. o'donnell. turned to the left. mr. specter. and approximately how far behind the presidential vehicle was the followup car at that time? mr. o'donnell. my guess would be to feet, the normal--when there are large crowds, pressing in on the side, they try to stay close. it was moving at a steady pace. the crowds were orderly. so he was at a normal--i would presume they were just about turning to step up the speed a little bit, because there would be no crowds from there. mr. specter. what is your best estimate of the speed of the president's vehicle at that time? mr. o'donnell. well, i would think we probably were going between and , up until that moment, and i think he probably had just begun to accelerate probably up to about , somewhere in that vicinity. mr. specter. had the secret service followup car completed its left-hand turn prior to the time the shots rang out? mr. o'donnell. my recollection is they had, just about. i don't recollect a separation of this nature. it was a slight sloping turn, as i remember, and i thought we were right together. mr. specter. so that when you just indicated with your hands, you were showing a pattern of the secret service car having made the turn and straightened up immediately behind the presidential vehicle proceeding down the street? mr. o'donnell. that is my impression. mr. specter. and was the overpass in sight at that time, did you say? mr. o'donnell. yes; it was. mr. specter. on which side of the car was president kennedy seated? mr. o'donnell. he was on the right side. mr. specter. the extreme right? mr. o'donnell. the extreme right. mr. specter. and what was he doing with his hands prior to the time of the shooting, if you recall? mr. o'donnell. he was waving. we had just left the mass of crowds. but as we turned on the grass plot there were four or five people there, and i believe he waved to them. mr. specter. indicating a right-handed wave? mr. o'donnell. yes. mr. specter. where was governor connally seated with respect to the president? mr. o'donnell. he was directly in front of the president. mr. specter. do you know whether or not the president's seat was raised or was it in its extreme low position at that time? mr. o'donnell. i would not know. mr. specter. do you know what the president's practice was as to whether or not the seat would be raised? mr. o'donnell. i don't know that, either. mr. specter. do you know what the controls were on the presidential automobile for raising or lowering the president's seat? mr. o'donnell. no; i don't. mr. specter. how many shots were there in all? mr. o'donnell. three. mr. specter. what is your best estimate as to the total time which elapsed from the first shot to the last shot? mr. o'donnell. i would say to seconds. mr. specter. and was there any distinguishable tempo to the shots? mr. o'donnell. yes; the first two came almost simultaneously, came one right after the other, there was a slight hesitation, then the third one. mr. specter. and what was your reaction as to the source of the shots, if you had one? mr. o'donnell. my reaction in part is reconstruction--is that they came from the right rear. that would be my best judgment. mr. specter. was there any reaction by any of the other people around in any specific direction? mr. o'donnell. the agents all turned to the rear. i would think, watching the reaction of the president when the shot--the first shot hit--that it would be automatic it would have to have come from the rear. i think any experienced agent would make that assumption immediately. mr. specter. and was the reaction of the agents which you have referred to as coming from the rear, to the right rear or to the left rear? mr. o'donnell. the reaction i note would be right rear. and, again, looking at the manner of the president's movement, i would think you would have to feel the thrust of the shot was from the right rear. mr. specter. now, what was there about the president's movement which leads you to that conclusion? mr. o'donnell. he was leaning out waving. he may have just been withdrawing his hand. and the shot hit him, and threw him to the left. he slumped on mrs. kennedy. mr. specter. were you able to determine a reaction on that slumping movement, as to whether it was the first, the second, or the third shot? mr. o'donnell. it was not the third shot. whether it was the first or second, i would not know. mr. specter. do you think it could have been the second shot? mr. o'donnell. yes; i do. if i had to pick one of the two, i think it might have been the second shot. it seemed to be--but, again, it is a foggy recollection--it seemed to have been that his movement coincided--with such a slight difference of time that is just guesswork. mr. specter. did you observe any reaction of governor connally in the car? mr. o'donnell. i saw the governor turn toward the president. the president, in that period of time, had been--they were one right behind the other. and the only reason i would even notice it was when the president had slumped to the left, the governor then turned, and he was in my view. otherwise, he would not have been. but the president slumped over, and, therefore, the governor just turned and i could see him. i had no knowledge that he had been hit at that time. mr. specter. when did you get the first knowledge that he had been hit? mr. o'donnell. when the third shot came. the president was hit. the motorcade accelerated. and one of the agents said, "the governor has been hit, too." mr. specter. prior to the time that president kennedy shifted to the left, then, could you see the governor at all from your position? mr. o'donnell. depending on how each one moved, normally, no. the president was directly behind the governor. but if the president was over to the right waving, then you could see the governor. mr. specter. on the president's left when the governor---- mr. o'donnell. if the president was all the way to the right, the governor, who was in front of him, would be visible to us. if they were both sitting, they were not. but they did confer back and forth. so the governor was visible upon occasion. but when he turned around, it was really the first time i had been able to see him clearly. mr. specter. at a time, though, when the president was on the extreme right-hand side, waving, would the governor then have been visible on the president's left or on his right? mr. o'donnell. he would be on his left. mr. specter. was the jump seat situated, if you know, to the precise front of the president, to the right, to the left, or what? mr. o'donnell. i don't know. mr. specter. what reaction did you observe, if any, as to mrs. kennedy during the shots? mr. o'donnell. well, he slumped on her. she appeared to be immediately aware that something had happened. she turned toward him. and then the third shot hit. obviously, she then knew what happened. she turned, looking at the backup car. meanwhile agent hill had gotten off the car and started running up. she was clambering toward the back, and reached his hand, and he was on the car. mr. specter. did you observe any reactions in the president's car other than those which you have now testified about? mr. o'donnell. no. mr. specter. at what point did the motorcade accelerate? mr. o'donnell. it accelerated, i would think, right about at the time that agent hill grabbed onto the back of the car, which would be just a few seconds after the last shot. mr. specter. and at what speed did the motorcade proceed en route to the hospital? mr. o'donnell. very rapidly. i would guess between and miles an hour. mr. specter. about how long did it take for the motorcade to get to the hospital? mr. o'donnell. i would guess to minutes. mr. specter. how far behind the president's car was the followup car in which you were riding at the time the president's car arrived at the hospital? mr. o'donnell. right behind it, or feet. mr. specter. what occurred at that time? mr. o'donnell. we got out of the car. david powers got out of the car, went over to the president, and was not visible to me, and was crying, he laid on him. and then they came and took the president--that was the first time i really realized that governor connally had been badly hurt, as they also carried governor connally out. mr. specter. what was mrs. kennedy doing at that time? mr. o'donnell. i believe somebody had helped her out and taken her into the hospital. mr. specter. was there a coat over president kennedy at that time? mr. o'donnell. when they took him out, i was standing maybe or feet behind him. there was a wall of people between myself. i didn't see him, nor did i look. mr. specter. do you know who lifted the president out of the car? mr. o'donnell. i don't. mr. specter. do you know who lifted the governor out of the car? mr. o'donnell. i don't. mr. specter. by what means were they taken away from the vicinity of the car? mr. o'donnell. i think they had stretchers. as i say, i was far enough back at that moment that they were milling around, and so many people between my vision and what they were doing, i did not see. i could not be accurate on that. mr. specter. what did you do next, mr. o'donnell? mr. o'donnell. i went into the hospital and went right to mrs. kennedy. she was seated right outside the room where they had placed the president. i would say she was in a total daze, and as yet not knowing whether there was any hope or not. mr. specter. what were your activities in the period of time immediately following that moment? mr. o'donnell. well, i stayed with her for a few minutes, and then no one seemed to be able to get any conclusive answer as to the president's condition. as i said, i had seen the shots so clearly, i had a pretty clear view. the first thing i had done--i asked them to get a priest, which they did immediately. i went into the room. there were four or five doctors there. dr. burkley i think was there. and i said, "i think we better get a definite answer one way or another--is there any hope at all?" i was unable to get a conclusive answer. but i think i got the answer i needed. i don't know how mrs. kennedy was finally told. i may have told her about at that moment. between the time and the time i knew definitely, i went to see the vice president. mr. specter. who was with him at that time? mr. o'donnell. mrs. johnson was with him and an agent who at the time i did not know. i believe it is youngblood. mr. specter. where was vice president johnson? mr. o'donnell. he was in a room across the hall. you had to go directly across what would probably be the reception room, which was open to the public, and into another room. and i recollect i turned to my right, and he was over more or less in the corner with a screen. he was standing on the right, mrs. johnson, i believe, was sitting, the agent was standing at the door. mr. specter. and what conversations, if any, did you have with then-vice president johnson? mr. o'donnell. i told him it looked very, very serious, and in my opinion that it was probably fatal. i hadn't been able to get a totally definite answer, but that i would let him know as soon as it was definite--but it looked pretty black. i then left him. i don't recollect that he even commented. i left him and went back to mrs. kennedy, and within a very few minutes they confirmed the fact that the president was dead. mr. specter. what did you do next? mr. o'donnell. as soon as i was assured that he was dead, and it was definite, i went back to the vice president and informed him the president was dead, and that in my opinion he ought to get out of there as fast as he could. we had a general discussion. the president's first words to me were that we must look upon this in a sense that it might be a conspiracy of some nature, and that all security must be taken, and that we then discussed whether one of the possible movements might be to move the presidential aircraft from love field to carswell, where no route of departure could be laid out, and where there would be military security. we discussed that. it was my opinion that his best movement was to move directly to love field. in fact, the routes would not be available anyway, because this was not a schedule--the departure from the hospital to the field would not be covered, if that were a possibility. and that it would be much better if he got to the field immediately, where he was under security and got aboard one of the aircraft. mr. specter. was there any discussion about his taking the presidential plane, af- , as opposed to af- ? mr. o'donnell. there was not. mr. specter. did vice president johnson look to you in any way for a recommendation on his subsequent plans in terms of your being then in charge of the presidential party? mr. o'donnell. it was my impression that he did, that he, with the president gone--that he felt i was--had to assume a position of responsibility, both with regard to mrs. kennedy and as to himself. he asked me, as i recall--he asked me for my advice as to his departure and used the words, "i am in your hands now," at some point in the conversation. but i did get the impression that he wanted official--that isn't the proper word--but that his movements should be approved by all concerned. mr. specter. have you now related all the conversation you had at that time with then-vice president johnson? mr. o'donnell. to the best of my recollection. mr. specter. what did you do next, then? mr. o'donnell. next after i left the vice president, i went back to mrs. kennedy. on the way through the lobby i noted the newspapermen were clamoring for information. i met kilduff. he said, "should we announce it?" and i said i think that is a decision that can only be made by the president "you better ask him." so that was the last i saw of kilduff. mr. specter. who is kilduff? mr. o'donnell. he is the assistant press secretary. mr. specter. malcolm kilduff? mr. o'donnell. malcolm kilduff. i then went back to mrs. kennedy, who was in a very understandably distraught condition. it was my opinion--i tried to in some way imply that she might leave and come with us, at least to get her out of that room. she was covered with blood. mr. specter. which room was she in then? mr. o'donnell. she was in the same room. she had not moved. she was sitting near the door. mr. specter. that is the room where the president was treated by the dallas doctors? mr. o'donnell. yes; there is a little corridor. there were swinging doors. he was inside the swing door. she was not in the presence of the body. mr. specter. what was her response to you? mr. o'donnell. her response to me was she would not leave her husband's body. at that point, i realized that she would not. the doctor had continually attempted to get her to take some form of sedation. and she had consistently refused, and told me she would not take anything, that she was going to stay with her husband. i realized that she was going to stay with her husband, no matter what anybody did, and there was no possible way of in any way getting her to leave. and so, therefore, the only alternative i could see was that we move the president. it is an assumption i probably would have arrived at anyway, but i arrived at it in this manner. so i went out and got hold of dr. burkley and general mchugh, and one of the agents, and andy berger, as i recall, and told them to get a casket, to bring it back, and dr. burkley would have the doctors prepare the body for removal, and that we would proceed to the airport and go to washington. this was done very rapidly, as i recollect. it seems to me it wasn't more than half an hour that they arrived with the casket. i remember just before they arrived i got dave powers and said there was a little room in the back that we ought to just take mrs. kennedy under some subterfuge, and talk to her in the room while we brought the casket in, because i thought that might be the final blow. and we did, and--but she knew what was going on. she came out and said, "no, i want to watch it all." and she stood in the doorway, and thanked us for our attempt at being compassionate. and then they took it in, and put the body in the casket. we were then all prepared to go. the agents told me the ambulance was ready, and they were prepared to move. we--the casket was brought out about halfway, and a gentleman arrived who said that we would not be allowed to remove the body from the hospital until the necessary papers had been signed. mr. specter. do you know who he was? mr. o'donnell. i don't recollect who he was. i think he was--maybe from the coroner's office. my assumption is he would be. but he took this position. we asked--i don't recollect who transmitted the message--that they speed this up as much as possible, and give us some idea how long it took to accomplish this. and they went out into this other little room where there were some telephones, and proceeded to call whoever it was necessary to call to get this permission. we waited about or minutes, and dr. burkley and general mchugh were in the room, and mr. o'brien at some time. i went out again and asked them if they had an answer, and nobody seemed to be able to answer the question as to how long it might take, and whether it was a week or an hour. so i was getting more concerned about mrs. kennedy's state all the time--although she appeared composed, as she had from the beginning. then a gentleman did arrive who has later been identified for me as a judge brown, who was on the telephone calling someone. it had been my assumption that upon his arrival that he had the power to permit us to depart. dr. burkley was talking to him in a very agitated manner. and the gentleman was very calm and cool and collected. if my recollection is clear, he said something to the effect that as of now this was just a homicide case, and there were certain things that had to be carried out, one of which i interpreted as an autopsy. mr. specter. who was it, mr. o'donnell, if you recall, who said this was just another homicide case? mr. o'donnell. my feeling is it was brown, but i really would not be--in the excitement of the moment, the discussion of the autopsy, the signing of a certificate from the hospital, and the treatment of this as a homicide case, i would not want to be unfair and misinterpret who might have said it. my recollection is it was indicated to us that the president is dead, the hospital has to perform certain functions, and the law must be met, no matter who it is, at this moment. in my own mind, when they said autopsy, i realized we were talking not about hours, but perhaps even days, which was an impossible situation for mrs. kennedy. i talked to dr. burkley, and had him suggest to them that they could have a doctor come with us, he could accompany the body at all times, and that we would bring him immediately to the naval hospital, and that they could perform whatever necessary chores, and there would be no separation physically from the hospital and the performance of their autopsy. they refused to consider this. i in my own mind determined that we had no alternative but to just depart. so i went back in the room. i told mr. o'brien, and whoever else was assembled there, that we were going to leave. i notified the secret service and general mchugh, and told them to get ready to depart. we went in and took the body out. mrs. kennedy stood right behind it, i think totally unaware of the problems that were then existing, so perhaps confused as to the speed with which we were attempting to depart. we pushed the casket out through the hall. this first gentleman that had come in, who, i presume, was from the coroner's office, shouted very loudly, "you can't do that, you can't leave here now." nobody paid any attention to him. we pushed out through another set of swinging doors. i remember a catholic priest was between this and the doorway, and was praying. it was most disconcerting because we were concerned at all times that some moment they would say stop, and i hated to think what might happen to mrs. kennedy if she had to go back and go through this all over again. so we brushed them all aside and came out the same way we had come in, through the same doors. there was an ambulance there. andy berger was seated in the driver's seat. several agents were there. the body was put into the ambulance, mrs. kennedy got in with it. we climbed into a car alongside of it, and we took off for the airport. i told the agents if they would signal ahead, that there were agents at the airfield, and that as soon as we came through the gate, they were to close the gate and let nobody else in. mr. specter. that is the gate at the airfield? mr. o'donnell. yes. mr. specter. do you recall approximately what time you left the hospital? mr. o'donnell. i haven't the vaguest idea. mr. specter. would you have any idea how long it was after you arrived at the hospital that you left the hospital? mr. o'donnell. i wouldn't--it was a couple of hours. but i wouldn't have any idea. mr. specter. about how long did the trip take you from the hospital back to the airport? mr. o'donnell. i am guessing totally at time. i would think it seemed about minutes. it wasn't a long period of time. mr. specter. what occurred then? mr. o'donnell. the drive was uneventful. we went through the gate. we arrived at the air force--i didn't know whether it was or , to be honest, until i saw the members of the crew. and they unloaded the casket. i remember they had a very, very difficult time getting it up, because of the narrowness of the ramp. it was very difficult for the secret service. it seemed at moments it might almost tumble; it was frightening. we got on the plane. and the seats had been taken out on the left side, so they could lay the casket down. the casket was placed down. i told general mchugh to tell the pilot to take off. mr. specter. do you know whether or not president johnson had been sworn in at that time? mr. o'donnell. at that time i didn't know president johnson was on the plane. i did not know whether he had been. subsequently i realized he had not been. mr. specter. was there any specific discussion, to your knowledge, or consideration, to your knowledge, of holding the presidential plane until mrs. kennedy and president kennedy's body arrived on that plane before departing for washington? mr. o'donnell. there has been no discussion of that to my knowledge. once the president--the vice president left, i left him, i had not seen him again. i had been notified he had departed, i had been notified that he arrived, and that was the last i heard of it, until i got on the airplane. mr. specter. what did you do next, after arriving on the airplane? mr. o'donnell. as i say, i told general mchugh to have the plane take off, still all of us under the assumption or apprehension that at some moment we either might not be granted clearance to take off, or that the hospital may have in some way gotten the police to intercept us--the difficulty of that to mrs. kennedy was incalculable. i was in a highly desperate strait to get that airplane in the air and back to washington. as i say, i told general mchugh to tell the pilot to take off. there was a delay of or minutes, and nothing happened. so i headed up for the cockpit myself, and i ran into mchugh in the meantime who said that president johnson was aboard, and that he had ordered the pilot to delay, to hold up until he was sworn in. that was the first i knew he was aboard. i would like to correct that. i must have known he was aboard, because i am sure he must have greeted mrs. kennedy as she came aboard. and he and mrs. johnson. but i don't have a clear recollection of that in my own mind. mr. specter. were you present when president johnson was sworn in? mr. o'donnell. i was. mr. specter. after you arrived back on af- , what did you do between that time and the time the plane was airborne? mr. o'donnell. mrs. johnson took mrs. kennedy into the president's room on _air force _. i remember she was reluctant to even go in there, but she persuaded her to. and---- mr. specter. who was reluctant to go in? mr. o'donnell. mrs. kennedy. and i went up, and the president and i carried on a conversation, which, again my recollections might be hazy--that it had been brought to his attention that i had asked for the plane to take off, and that there was some difference of opinion between him and me. he said to me that he had called the attorney general, and that the attorney general had indicated that it was, if not mandatory, at least preferable that he be sworn in prior to the aircraft taking off. i didn't describe what i saw as the problems. i realized it was an inevitable delay. so i don't believe i commented on it. i just listened to him. we sat there. i went up and talked to the pilot, to make sure they didn't let anybody on the plane, or put the ramps down for anybody, except the judge, under any circumstances. about or minutes later the judge arrived and the swearing in occurred. mr. specter. how soon after the swearing in was the plane airborne, if you recall? mr. o'donnell. it was almost immediate--as soon as he was sworn in, the plane taxied out and took off. mr. specter. on the return flight to washington, where did you sit? mr. o'donnell. i sat with mrs. kennedy almost all the way. we came back--mr. powers, mr. o'brien, and i stayed in the back compartment. and then mrs. kennedy and i--i sat down with her, we sat that way all the way back. the president called me up on one or two occasions and asked me to stay up in the cabin, wanted to talk to me, but i felt i had to stay with mrs. kennedy. so i sat with her the whole trip. mr. specter. what did you talk about? mr. o'donnell. we reminisced. mr. specter. did she have anything to eat on the trip back? mr. o'donnell. no; i think we both had a drink. i tried to get her to take a good strong drink. i had not much luck. mr. specter. she drank part but not all? mr. o'donnell. as i recollect, she just wanted to talk. she talked all the way. mr. specter. what did you do then after your arrival in washington, d.c.? or did you come back to andrews air force base? mr. o'donnell. we arrived at andrews and meanwhile the attorney general had been notified, the decision had been made that he would go to bethesda. mr. specter. who made that decision, by the way? mr. o'donnell. mrs. kennedy. mr. specter. that the autopsy should be performed? mr. o'donnell. i don't think she knew anything about an autopsy. the question is where the body went. we didn't tell her there was to be an autopsy. and the choice was walter reed or bethesda. he being a navy man, she picked bethesda. mr. specter. she chose bethesda, as between bethesda and walter reed? mr. o'donnell. she did. mr. specter. who made the decision there would be an autopsy, if you know? mr. o'donnell. i don't know who made the decision. i just think we all agreed--we arrived at bethesda. the attorney general was there. i think it was just our assumption that this was a necessary part. mr. specter. how did you get from andrews air force base to bethesda naval hospital? mr. o'donnell. by car. mr. specter. about what time did you arrive at andrews, if you recall? mr. o'donnell. i don't remember. it was dark. that is all i do recall. mr. specter. about how long was the car trip from andrews to bethesda? mr. o'donnell. i would think minutes. mr. specter. and what did you do after your arrival at bethesda? mr. o'donnell. when we arrived at bethesda, we went immediately to some room, reception room, where the family was. mr. specter. and how long did you stay there? mr. o'donnell. we stayed there, i would think, until or in the morning. we wanted to stay there until mrs. kennedy got back to the house. we drove back to the white house with her. mr. specter. at what time did you leave her at the white house? mr. o'donnell. i would think or in the morning. mr. specter. after that, did you go home? mr. o'donnell. i did. mr. specter. who all was present with the family at bethesda? mr. o'donnell. there was mr. o'brien, mr. powers--i don't recollect anybody else outside the family. mr. specter. who from the family was there? mr. o'donnell. as i remember, jean kennedy, the attorney general and his wife, i think pat and eunice. there were some other people. really there were two--there was one room inside, in which they were in, and there was one out in the reception. mr. specter. what was on the balance of the itinerary in texas after the planned luncheon at the trade mart at dallas on november ? mr. o'donnell. we were leaving dallas and going to austin, and governor connally had arranged one or two receptions, and then a large dinner in the evening, a fundraising dinner, and then the president was going to depart from there to the vice president's ranch, and stay with them through saturday, and then come back to washington. mr. specter. and was the estimated time of arrival at the lbj ranch about p.m., on the evening of november ? mr. o'donnell. that would be about right. mr. specter. with the plan then being to depart for washington on the d, saturday? mr. o'donnell. yes. mr. specter. what was the president's attitude, in a general way, about presidential protection--that is, president kennedy's attitude about presidential protection, mr. o'donnell? mr. o'donnell. well, his general attitude was that the secret service--that there was no protection available to a president of a democracy such as the united states from a demented person who was willing to risk his own life; that if someone wanted to kill a president of the united states, who in a sense wears two hats--he is the leader of a political party as well as our chief executive--and by the nature of our system must mingle with crowds, must ride through our cities, and must expose himself to the american people--that the secret service would not be, other than the protection that they provide by the screening processes prior to the actual carrying out of a political trip--would not be able to guarantee percent protection, considering one has to mingle with crowds of , or , people, and mingle with them at handshaking distance. mr. specter. had you ever discussed the dangers inherent in a motorcade, for example, with the president? mr. o'donnell. not specifically in a motorcade. i don't think the president's view was--very frankly, we had discussed this general subject. we used to go on trips, and sit around in the evening and this would come up. mr. specter. what was the president's view expressed during those conversations? mr. o'donnell. his view was that a demented person who was willing to sacrifice his own life could take the president's life. and that if it were to happen, i think his general view was it would happen in a crowded situation. i don't think it entered his mind that it might happen in the fashion as of a motorcade. mr. specter. what was his reaction to that risk? mr. o'donnell. i think he felt that was a risk which one assuming the office of the presidency of the united states inherited. it didn't disturb him at all. mr. specter. when was the last conversation that you had with him on that general topic? mr. o'donnell. the last conversation i had with him on that general topic was the morning of the assassination. mr. specter. where did the conversation occur? mr. o'donnell. the conversation took place in his room, with mrs. kennedy and myself, perhaps a half hour before he left the hotel texas to depart for carswell air force base. mr. specter. that was in fort worth? mr. o'donnell. that was in fort worth. mr. specter. and tell us, as nearly as you can recollect, exactly what he said at that time, please. mr. o'donnell. well, as near as i can recollect he was commenting to his wife on the function of the secret service, and his interpretation of their role once the trip had commenced, in that their main function was to protect him from crowds, and to see that an unruly or sometimes an overexcited crowd did not generate into a riot, at which the president of the united states could be injured. but he said that if anybody really wanted to shoot the president of the united states, it was not a very difficult job--all one had to do was get a high building some day with a telescopic rifle, and there was nothing anybody could do to defend against such an attempt on the president's life. mr. specter. what was mrs. kennedy's reaction to that philosophy? mr. o'donnell. i think--i think she had not quite thought of this at all. she certainly had not thought of it in this way. but i think the general tenor of the conversation was that she agreed that this was--in this democracy, this is inherent. mr. specter. what had her reaction been to the trip to texas up to that point? mr. o'donnell. she had enjoyed it. she had not been a girl who had loved campaigning. and i thought at the moment, at that very minute, that for the first time--the president and i were discussing a forthcoming trip to the west coast, and he had asked her if she would come, and she said she would be delighted to come, and she would like to go from now on. the president was delighted. we were all delighted. mr. specter. had she been on any political trip before this trip to texas? mr. o'donnell. no; she had not been on a political trip with us for quite awhile. mr. specter. when was the trip immediately prior to the one to texas that she was last on, if you recall? mr. o'donnell. i don't recall. i don't recall. mr. specter. was it during the campaign? mr. o'donnell. she was pregnant, as i recollect, during the campaign. she had been pregnant just prior to this. so that--and most of the other trips had been really the sort of thing that was difficult for mrs. kennedy to go on. but she had never evidenced to me quite as much interest in going on a--continuing to go on these trips, as she was after this. mr. specter. had she ever been to texas prior to november , ? mr. o'donnell. not to my recollection. mr. specter. after the assassination, has she ever made any comment to you about that conversation which you had in the hotel texas in fort worth on the morning of november ? mr. o'donnell. i have never dared bring that conversation up to mrs. kennedy. mr. specter. mr. o'donnell, do you have any knowledge, aside from the factors which you have set forth during your testimony today, concerning anyone involved in the shooting of the president? mr. o'donnell. no; i have no comment. mr. specter. you say you have no knowledge? mr. o'donnell. i have no knowledge. mr. specter. do you have anything to add which you think would be helpful to the president's commission in any way in its job of investigating all factors relating to the assassination of president kennedy? mr. o'donnell. i do not. mr. specter. one other detail, mr. o'donnell. did you have occasion to deal with an particular individuals from the city of dallas itself during this trip, or in preparation for this trip? mr. o'donnell. no. mr. specter. mr. o'donnell, under our practice, if you care to, we can make this transcript available to you to read and to sign. would you prefer that, or would you just as soon waive the signature, and have the transcript in its final form as it comes from the court reporter here? mr. o'donnell. i would like to read it. mr. specter. fine. we will make it available to you for reading and signature, sir. thank you very much. testimony of lawrence f. o'brien the testimony of lawrence f. o'brien was taken at a.m., on may , , at the white house office, washington, dc., by mr. francis w. h. adams, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. adams. raise your right hand, please. do you solemnly swear that the testimony you shall give in this deposition proceeding before the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. o'brien. i do. mr. adams. mr. o'brien, the purpose of this deposition is to get from you your knowledge of the facts surrounding the assassination of president kennedy on november , . i would like to start way back, if i may, at the point of the conception of the trip, the origin of the trip. how far back was that before november ? mr. o'brien. my recollection is the contemplation of the trip to texas was back some, perhaps, months before the actual trip. however, i should quickly add that many discussions took place about potential trips to all parts of the country at some future time, to some degree in the political context. the president, no. , enjoyed getting out to meet the people; and, secondly, over a period of time we had anticipated the president would travel rather extensively when the opportunity presented itself. but the difficulty in pinning anything like that down specifically in advance is the obvious difficulty of scheduling any travel by the president, because of the duties of the office and the obvious day to day changes in the problem. mr. adams. but you, yourself, were concerned and involved in discussions looking towards this? mr. o'brien. yes; mr. o'donnell was responsible for the handling of the specifics of trips. he would engage in discussions with the president and projections of possible trips of one sort or another. in his role as appointments secretary, of course, he was constantly discussing with the president invitations of all kinds that came across his desk. the vice president had expressed an interest for some time in a possible trip to texas. mr. adams. had he expressed that interest to you? mr. o'brien. i don't recall specifically. it became generally understood in our discussions that he was interested, the president was interested, mr. o'donnell was charged with the responsibility of maintaining a day to day relationship in this area. mr. adams. at that time, what was your official title? mr. o'brien. special assistant to the president for congressional relations. mr. adams. now---- mr. o'brien. a trip of this nature, as many trips within the united states, would involve the inclusion of members of congress, appropriate members of the delegation, and what-have-you. so that would be pretty much my involvement in any arrangements for a trip of this nature. mr. adams. to put it another way, you did not yourself have the responsibility for the specific planning? mr. o'brien. not at all. mr. adams. and were you involved in making--in the discussions which led to the final decision about this texas trip? mr. o'brien. there were some discussions that involved me as to the specific stops on the trip, because there immediately you would have the matter of the congressional districts that would be involved in the stops, and matters of that nature. mr. adams. do you happen to know how it came to pass that mrs. kennedy went along on that trip? mr. o'brien. no; i do not. i think mr. o'donnell would be the proper person to direct that to. mr. adams. did you have anything to do with the security or protection arrangements for the president? mr. o'brien. no. mr. adams. neither on that trip nor at any time? mr. o'brien. no. mr. adams. this didn't come within your duties at all? mr. o'brien. that is correct. mr. adams. now, is it fair to say that the substantial purpose of this trip was political? mr. o'brien. i would not say--in my belief it was not the substantial purpose. an invitation that had been extended by the congressman albert thomas' dinner committee, and i assume arrangements that were appropriate for that time for a dinner in austin contributed to the decision on that particular time for this trip. this would be typical of the situation, as i recall it, where you knew there would be an occasion when the president would visit texas. he was interested in visiting texas, as he was other sections of the country. and this sort of fell into line. it presented to some degree an opportunity to make the trip at that time. he was particularly fond of congressman thomas. and he had had a close-working relationship with him in the congress. i, of course, became very well acquainted with congressman thomas, because of my role representing the white house with the congress. and i am sure that was a contributing factor. he was most interested in attending this dinner to honor him. mr. adams. i suppose it would be fair to say that almost any activity of the president is in some measure political. mr. o'brien. i would say that is perhaps true. but he had been interested, also, in having an opportunity to visit the space center particularly. and he had watched the development of the space activity in texas with great interest. mr. adams. now, going back to the time that you left washington on that trip, did you leave with the president? mr. o'brien. i did. mr. adams. from the white house? mr. o'brien. i did. mr. adams. by helicopter? mr. o'brien. yes. mr. adams. and what was the time--do you recall? mr. o'brien. it was approximately forenoon, about : , from the white house lawn, in the president's helicopter. mr. adams. and where did you go in the helicopter? mr. o'brien. we went to andrews field. mr. adams. and did you go onboard _air force _? mr. o'brien. yes; i did. mr. adams. and you went from there to austin? mr. o'brien. we went from there to san antonio. mr. adams. i am sorry. i misspoke myself. san antonio? mr. o'brien. yes. mr. adams. arriving in san antonio about when? mr. o'brien. i think you would have to refer to the record on that. mr. adams. some time early afternoon? some time in the afternoon of that day? mr. o'brien. yes; i remember it was, weatherwise, an uneventful trip. the weather was fine. there is no reason to suggest we didn't arrive at pretty much the established time. mr. adams. then, just briefly, what happened in san antonio? mr. o'brien. well, there was a motorcade in san antonio to the aerospace center for a ceremony. and, as i recall, the ceremony was relatively brief. the president spoke briefly. and then he inspected the installation. the overall elapsed time i don't recall--perhaps an hour or an hour and a half. and then we proceeded back to the airport for the trip to fort worth. mr. adams. what happened in fort worth? mr. o'brien. in fort worth, as i recall, at the airport there was--from the airport into the hotel in fort worth, it was rather a lengthy trip. it also involved crowds at various stops. the hour--i am sorry i cannot recall the hour of arrival--but it was, as we say, an offbeat hour. it was rather surprising to have the interest shown crowdwise as we went in. it delayed the motorcade into the hotel and outside of the hotel there was a large crowd of people. mr. adams. what was the reaction of that crowd? was that a friendly group? mr. o'brien. i would describe it as friendly; yes. mr. adams. then what happened next, after you arrived at the hotel? mr. o'brien. the president and his party checked into the hotel for the night. i do not recall any other official activity. mr. adams. and what happened next? mr. o'brien. well, the following morning the president arose early to attend a breakfast. as i recall, it was a civic breakfast, sponsored by the local civic group or groups. mr. adams. did mrs. kennedy attend that, also, as you recall? mr. o'brien. she arrived at the breakfast, as i recall, following the president. the president spoke at the breakfast, and received gifts, and mrs. kennedy received a gift. i recall one of the gifts to the president was a stetson. i recall that he did not try it on, but he appreciated receiving it. following the breakfast, he then spoke to a large crowd in front of the hotel, in the parking area opposite the hotel. there had been indications of bad weather. there was some rain, and then the rain became intermittent. upon completing his speech in the parking area, he returned upstairs to await the normal departure time. when that time arrived, i went downstairs ahead of the president and mrs. kennedy, and the secret service were determining whether or not they would have the top up or down on the car, because there was still an occasional drop of rain. however, a few minutes elapsed, and it appeared the weather would stay good for the drive to the airport. so he left, to the best of my recollection--i feel sure of this--in an open car to the airport from the hotel. mr. adams. while we are on that subject, just to digress for a moment, what was his attitude toward riding in open cars? mr. o'brien. it was certainly his preference. he had always expressed a view that in our democracy a president should, whenever possible, be exposed to the people. and i think, also, he felt the people should be exposed to him. he always wanted to have the closest possible contact with people. and in that context his preference certainly at all times was an open car. mr. adams. and these preferences were expressed to you personally? mr. o'brien. not in the context of this particular situation. mr. adams. no; i mean through the years. mr. o'brien. but certainly we were totally aware of his desires in that area. and this had, of course, been his position not only in the united states but in trips outside the country. mr. adams. did he have--did he ever happen to express any particular view to you about motorcades, in terms of security? mr. o'brien. no; i cannot recall any discussion i had with him in that regard. mr. adams. generally speaking, what was his position as expressed to you about security? mr. o'brien. i cannot recall any specific conversation in that area. there may have been. but certainly it was not of sufficient substance to be of any importance. mr. adams. more specifically, did you ever discuss with him the possibility of assassination? mr. o'brien. no; i did not. mr. adams. did you ever discuss it with mrs. kennedy? mr. o'brien. no; i did not. mr. adams. well, i took you off the track there. we will come back to fort worth, now, if we may. when we left we were discussing his concluding his talk and going out to the airport in fort worth. mr. o'brien. yes; there were, as i recall it, some bands en route. there was a great deal of excitement, enthusiasm. the weather had cleared. and it was a thoroughly pleasant trip out to the airport. the president obviously enjoyed it. when we arrived at _air force _, he commented that that certainly had been a very interesting and pleasant morning. mr. adams. and you went with him on _air force _? mr. o'brien. that is correct. mr. adams. to dallas--arriving late in the morning? mr. o'brien. i would estimate our arrival time at dallas perhaps around : . i know that we anticipated the motorcade through the streets of dallas at the noon hour. mr. adams. did you yourself have anything to do with the planning of that motorcade? mr. o'brien. no; i did not. mr. adams. do you---- mr. o'brien. with the exception of insuring the inclusion in the motorcade of the members of congress and senator yarborough, that they be properly handled so that they would be included in open cars in the motorcade. mr. adams. and it was part of your responsibility to see that--what cars they got into and all those arrangements? mr. o'brien. i would not say specifically that. they would have their car assignments. but for the most part, it was, if anything went wrong in the arrangements at some point, i would then be able to have a staff man correct it. so i would keep a close eye on the congressional people traveling with the president on a trip of that nature to be sure that they were well taken care of. mr. adams. do you know when the information about the precise route was released to the press? mr. o'brien. no; i do not. mr. adams. was there any thought--i withdraw that one, and ask you this: do you know how it came about that dallas was chosen as one of the cities to visit? mr. o'brien. i don't recall specifically, except that the size of the city, the concentration of population, would make it an obvious stop in texas, if you were going to be in the state for or - / days. it is rather an obvious decision, that the dallas area would be one of the stops. mr. adams. as far as you know, there was never any consideration given to omitting dallas? mr. o'brien. i do not recall any. mr. adams. well, we are back now at love field. would you tell us what happened there, as far as you observed it? mr. o'brien. the president moved over to the fence, where a large crowd had gathered and shook the hands of several in the crowd, as the motorcade was awaiting his departure. all those in the motorcade proceeded to get into their cars. there was the usual amount of minor confusion--people hustling around to locate their car number, and i stood watching the president engaged in this activity, until he had gotten into his car, and a quick observation indicated to me that all those traveling with us had gotten into their cars. i came very close, however, to being left at love field, because i delayed a little longer than i normally would, observing the scene, and, consequently, i had to make a little dash, myself, to hop into a car, to insure that i would travel into town. mr. adams. when the president was greeting people along the fence there, was he accompanied by mrs. kennedy? mr. o'brien. that is my recollection. mr. adams. and do you recall at that time what the vice president and mrs. johnson were doing? mr. o'brien. they were engaged in the same activity, as i recall it. mr. adams. i think you said this was a large crowd. mr. o'brien. yes; it appeared to be a large crowd. the difficulty in judging a crowd from the ground at an airport is obvious. but as we came down the steps of the plane, looking out over the crowd, i had the impression that it was a large crowd for an airport stop, considering the fact the president was about to travel through the heart of the city. mr. adams. was it a friendly crowd? mr. o'brien. it appeared to be friendly. mr. adams. now, getting to the motorcade, what was its organization, as you recall it, in terms of what cars at what places? mr. o'brien. as i recall it, following the usual police grouping in the front and sides, the president's car, secret service car, the vice president's car, additional secret service car, wire service cars--i would think there probably were two--the vip cars followed, and then following those cars, which was rather a long line of them, as i recall, were, i believe, one or two buses containing the press, traveling press. mr. adams. when you refer to the vip cars, those would include the congressmen and the other gentlemen you referred to before? mr. o'brien. that is right. senator yarborough was in the car with the vice president and mrs. johnson. the members of the congressional delegation traveling with us at that point were then in open cars--i would think there were perhaps four open cars to accommodate them. mr. adams. which one were you in? mr. o'brien. i was in one of those open cars--specifically, i don't remember the order of the car, but i remember the passengers i joined. and as i pointed out, this was rather a quick hop into the car that i made at that point. congressman mahon was in the front seat with the driver. congressman rogers of texas, now judge homer thornberry of texas, and me in the back seat. mr. adams. do you know who the driver was? mr. o'brien. i do not. mr. adams. now, would you say that between you and the vice president's followup car, there was more than one open car? as i get it--to put it another way to perhaps refresh your recollection--there was the vice president's car, then there was a followup car behind that, and then came, as you have recalled, the open cars, in which you were seated in one of them. mr. o'brien. yes. mr. adams. now, were you in the one directly behind the vice president's followup car, or farther back? mr. o'brien. i do not believe i was in the first vip car, because, as i stated when i looked around and the motorcade started to move slightly, i moved toward a car handy to me. i would think that i was in the second or conceivably third open car, because, at that time, we had approximately or members of the texas congressional delegation, and obviously we, therefore, had perhaps four open cars. i don't recall that i was in the first one--it was the second or third. i was not in the last one, either. mr. adams. were you assigned to a particular car, or would you just have taken any that would happen to be available? mr. o'brien. i am sure i was assigned to a particular car. as a rule, i would be assigned to the first vip car--vip meaning as a rule, again, a congressional delegation. and in this instance, i don't recall the actual car assignment. and it was not unusual for me to not adhere strictly to the assignment. mr. adams. and as the motorcade left love field--let me withdraw that and put it this way: you were seated in the back? mr. o'brien. on the right back. mr. adams. on the right-hand side? mr. o'brien. that is correct. mr. adams. from where you were seated in that car, as you proceeded toward the city, could you see the president in his car? mr. o'brien. only occasionally. there were occasions when you could not see him. other times, depending on the turns in the road, and what-have-you, you would get a view of him. and there were times when he was upright in the car, and you could spot him. but, generally speaking, i would say that i was concentrating on crowd attitude and size for the most part, going in toward the city. mr. adams. from what you could see of the president's car, where was he seated? on the right-hand side or the left-hand side? mr. o'brien. as i looked toward the car, he was seated on the right, with governor connally seated directly in front of him. mr. adams. that is right. and mrs. connally---- mr. o'brien. mrs. connally on the jump seat in front of mrs. kennedy. mr. adams. as the motorcade proceeded, could you at all times see the vice president's car? mr. o'brien. no; similarly, the photographers and others would often times block the view. the view of the president's car and the vice president's car from where i was seated during the motorcade into and through the downtown dallas was not a clear view. there was an obstructed view for the most part. mr. adams. as you recall it, what were the seating arrangements in the vice president's car? mr. o'brien. i know that senator yarborough, mrs. johnson, and the vice president were seated in the rear of the car, and my recollection is that again the vice president was on the right, mrs. johnson in the middle, senator yarborough on the left. mr. adams. now, as you went on in town, tell me about the crowds, if you would. mr. o'brien. the crowds were large, unusually large for an extremely long--mileagewise--long trip into the city. i was impressed with the size of the crowd. the comment in our car, however, was that the crowd was rather reserved. as a matter of fact, congressman rogers, who, as i told you, was on the left rear, commented and called out from time to time in a jocular vein, "hello", "howdy", and suggested to them that they ought to smile and look perky, which we felt they were not doing during the course of the trip from the airport to the outskirts of the business area. mr. adams. up to that point, i suppose it was chiefly residential areas that you passed through? mr. o'brien. it seemed to be residential, and a great deal of small industry. the crowd looked to me to be middle to upper class business type to a great extent. mr. adams. did you know the city of dallas yourself? mr. o'brien. no; i did not. mr. adams. had you been there before? mr. o'brien. no; i had not. mr. adams. then as you got into the city, what was the nature of the crowds? mr. o'brien. there was a tremendous change in crowd attitude, which, again, we commented on in the car. it seemed as though it occurred suddenly, but yet nevertheless in retrospect it did grow as you approached the business center. then you found yourself going down a road, on both sides high buildings, confetti, the crowds out in the street, allowing just a narrow lane for the motorcade. and i would have to describe that crowd as enthusiastic. in fact, perhaps i should say wildly enthusiastic. mr. adams. do you remember any special incidents of any kind on the way into town? mr. o'brien. on rare occasion you saw a goldwater sign, or some sign of that nature, conservative sign, i guess, but not many. it was not an unusual situation, as i recall. mr. adams. do you remember the motorcade stopping at anytime? mr. o'brien. i recall the motorcade stopping, and it seems to me it was for the purpose of the president greeting some school children. however, i am not clear in my mind. i do recall a slowdown or an actual stopping on at least one occasion, and perhaps more than one occasion, between the airport and downtown dallas. and i should add that those in the car in which i rode, to a man, commented on the great enthusiasm of the crowds in downtown area. i think they were making reference to it particularly because there was somehow or other--we all concluded this was a comparison that could be made with the crowds we had just gone by. mr. adams. do you recall the motorcade passing down main street in dallas? mr. o'brien. yes; i do. mr. adams. and then do you recall it turning off main street? mr. o'brien. yes; i do. mr. adams. and then around onto elm street? you might not remember the names. mr. o'brien. i don't recall the name of the street. but i recall distinctly a right turn. mr. adams. and then another swerving turn? mr. o'brien. that is right. mr. adams. at that point, were there a lot of buildings or only a few? mr. o'brien. it seemed that when we made the turn off the main street, that the crowds petered out. it was a very normal termination of a parade route. and we just felt that while there were people on the streets, it was not the massive crowd that we had just passed over several blocks. and i believe that my reaction was this is about the end of the parade route, and we were about to just sort of settle back. there were people still on the street, but you could see that this route was--this parade route was about to terminate. mr. adams. and as you came around those turns, did you hear any shots fired? mr. o'brien. yes; i did. mr. adams. would you tell me as best you can whether at that time you could see the president's car? mr. o'brien. no; i could not. mr. adams. was that because your car had not turned the corner yet? mr. o'brien. as i recall, our car was about to make that turn, and it would seem to me, therefore, the president's car was in the process of making the left turn. i would think that approximately the time he was swinging on this curving left, we were swinging out of main street right. we heard the shots very clearly. mr. adams. how many shots did you hear? mr. o'brien. three. mr. adams. can you estimate for me the time interval between the first and the last shot? mr. o'brien. i don't believe i can estimate the timing, but i can tell you about an exchange that took place in the car, from the first shot through the third shot. mr. adams. please do. mr. o'brien. the first shot was fired. i just didn't conclude it was rifle fire. i was completely unsure. and i must have almost immediately said to the driver--i directed the question to him, for some unknown reason--"what was that?" the driver replied, "i do not know. they must be giving him a -gun salute." by the time the driver had concluded that sentence, we did not hear explosion no. . and it was apparent to us that no. was not a -gun salute. i believe everyone in the car concluded it wasn't, in any event, because it just was not that kind of a sound. and we just had no idea of what had occurred at that moment. mr. adams. could you tell me your best recollection as to where the sounds appeared to come from? mr. o'brien. i didn't have any idea specifically on the location of the sounds, and i do not recall that anyone in the car did. mr. adams. is it your recollection that these sounds were evenly spaced? mr. o'brien. that is my impression. as i say, i apparently immediately engaged the driver in conversation after the first shot which forces me to conclude that there had to be a time between the first and second and third shots--because i simply--describing the exchange of my question and his answer, and his answer, i must say, probably was completed after the third shot. but he had started his answer to the question at about or just before the third shot. mr. adams. well, one way of getting at the time interval of all three shots, i suppose, would be your recollection that it all was encompassed in the time it took you to ask the question and the driver to answer. mr. o'brien. at least in the time that it took me to ask the question and the driver to initiate the answer, but perhaps not complete it. mr. adams. then would it be fair to say it was a very small number of seconds? mr. o'brien. it certainly would be. and i think the driver completed his answer--for or seconds all of us in the car were awaiting the fourth explosion, if i can term it that, which did not occur, and there was dead silence in the car. mr. adams. then do you remember anything that anyone said immediately following the dead silence? mr. o'brien. no; i do not recall. i recall that just prior to this, which indicates to me that perhaps we had turned that corner before the shots, judge thornberry pointed to a building and said that that was where his offices had been located at one time, either in military service or in government service, and pointing over in the direction of the building. we were turning the corner--and that took place before the shots. mr. adams. you don't happen to know the name of that building? mr. o'brien. i don't recall. but he mentioned it in the term that he had been stationed in that building. now, it could have been either a military activity or in government agency activity. mr. adams. how did the knowledge come to you that the president had been shot? mr. o'brien. we noted, as the cars continued to move after the third shot, and there was a great deal of movement on both sides in front of us, scurrying in various directions. mr. adams. scurrying by whom? mr. o'brien. people on the street--the crowds had thinned out. there were people along the road. mr. adams. we didn't specifically cover this, but was there a motorcycle escort? mr. o'brien. for the motorcade? mr. adams. yes; around the president's car. mr. o'brien. yes. mr. adams. did that motorcycle escort extend as far back as your car? mr. o'brien. no; it did not. mr. adams. i interrupted you there. you were telling me how this knowledge came to you, that something serious had happened. mr. o'brien. i don't think even up to that point, as the motorcade started to move out in front of us, as each car seemed to move out from great speed, we were at all aware of--certainly we had no idea of the specific nature of the occurrence. and we just were, i think you would have to describe, very confused. i remember particularly a negro man with a youngster in his arms running up the slope of the lawn. mr. adams. on which side of the car? mr. o'brien. on the right. and that was typical of all kinds of movement, as we tried to determine what had occurred, and we just didn't know. mr. adams. did you have any radio communication in your car with the front cars? mr. o'brien. no; we did not. at that point, a photographer--we started to move a little more rapidly. our driver intended to follow the motorcade and move out. the motorcade moved out with great speed in front of us. and a photographer jumped on the trunk of our car--it was a convertible--holding onto the edge of the seat, and pounding his fist on the trunk, and obviously in a most excited state. we did not get anything coherent from him. i do not think we really attempted to, because at that point, as he hung onto our car, obviously to try and keep up with the motorcade himself, our car moved out with great speed. the driver lost sight of the car in front of him in a matter of two or three minutes. he had no idea where the motorcade was headed. and they, therefore, proceeded to take us directly along the highway, passed the trade mart, which was to be the location of the president's stop and speech following the parade route. we pulled up in front of the motorcade, slowed down, and someone called out, he has been shot, he is draped over the back seat. and at that point the driver concluded that perhaps his destination should be the nearest hospital. and he started to move out with great speed toward this hospital. and as we came closer to it, it became obvious that that was our destination, because then you saw the cars, the motorcycle police, and what-have-you. as we arrived at the hospital, there was a great deal of commotion at the front. mr. adams. i think you misspoke yourself. you said you pulled up in front of the motorcade. i think perhaps you meant to say you pulled up in front of the trade mart. mr. o'brien. trade mart--i am sorry. mr. adams. now, just to make it perfectly clear, did you see the president or governor connally at the moment that they were shot? mr. o'brien. i did not. mr. adams. how long would you think it took you to go from the point where you heard the shots to the hospital? mr. o'brien. i would say overall it could approach minutes. mr. adams. and what was your estimate of the rate of speed of your car? mr. o'brien. i would say to miles an hour. mr. adams. when you arrived at the hospital, what did you do? mr. o'brien. when i arrived at the hospital, two of the congressmen that had been in the motorcade, obviously, therefore, in a car ahead of my car, because they had arrived, came over to the car as we pulled up, and asked me to follow them immediately. there was a large crowd--i will correct that--there were many people in front of the entrance to the hospital, and the entrance was being guarded by police. congressman thomas and congressman brooks went up to the officers at the door and said, "this is a special assistant to the president. let him in." so he immediately opened the doors, and i went through, with the two congressmen, who asked a hospital attendant inside the corridor the direction in which to go. there was a little confusion in the corridor as to direction, and we headed at first in the wrong direction, and were again rerouted. and in a matter, however, of a couple of minutes from the entrance of the hospital, i arrived behind these swinging doors with glass panels, and my first--i saw to my right sitting--yes--sitting in a chair, and to my left, in this corridor sitting in a similar chair--to my right mrs. kennedy, to my left mrs. connally. mr. adams. you didn't go in through the emergency entrance, then? you went through---- mr. o'brien. apparently not. i am not sure of the entrance. but i just don't know. i assume that was not the emergency entrance. mr. adams. and you said that mrs. kennedy and mrs. connally were sitting there more or less together? mr. o'brien. no. they were sitting--obviously chairs had been placed outside the door in each instant--one door to the left as you walked through these swinging doors with the glass panels--one door to the left that was closed, one door to the right that was closed. and outside of the door--this was a fairly wide corridor that ran down perhaps through three rooms on each side, these first two rooms right and left, the president had been placed in the emergency room to the right and governor connally in the emergency room to the left. both doors were closed at that moment. mr. adams. was there anyone with mrs. kennedy at the time? mr. o'brien. mr. powers and mr. o'donnell were standing there. mr. adams. were you accompanied all the way up to this point by the two congressmen you mentioned before? mr. o'brien. the two congressmen did not go through the doors with me. they left me at some point several feet from the doors, when it was determined that i was being taken to the right location. mr. adams. now, at that point, you knew that--from the congressmen and from others, that the president had been shot? mr. o'brien. that is correct. mr. adams. then did you go up to mrs. kennedy or mrs. connally, or what did you do then? mr. o'brien. i immediately engaged mr. o'donnell and mr. powers in conversation. mr. adams. can you recall that conversation? mr. o'brien. neither mr. powers or mr. o'donnell had a clear idea of the situation at the moment, but mr. o'donnell certainly gave me a positive indication that there was little or no chance. mr. adams. did you have any conversation with mrs. kennedy at that point? mr. o'brien. i did not have any conversation other than attempting to comfort her, asking her if there was anything we could do--brief moments of that nature. but conversation was extremely limited. mr. adams. do you know where the vice president was at that time? mr. o'brien. i did not see the vice president in the hospital. i was given to understand by mr. o'donnell he was down the corridor--again, if i did an about-face, headed across in the other direction--that he was in a room across the hall. mr. adams. how long did you stay there? mr. o'brien. until the president was taken from the hospital. mr. adams. you stayed there with mrs. kennedy? mr. o'brien. that is right. mr. adams. during that whole time? mr. o'brien. that is right. during that period general mchugh at one point, malcolm kilduff from the press staff from time to time came in and out, mrs. lincoln, dr. burkley came in and out from time to time. mr. adams. was dr. burkley also in the emergency room? mr. o'brien. i don't recall. mr. adams. now---- mr. o'brien. as we stood there, they moved equipment, heavy emergency equipment into the emergency room, and there was a great deal of what you would just envision--scurrying around of nurses and doctors, a great deal of activity. mr. adams. did you go into the emergency room yourself? mr. o'brien. i did not. mr. adams. taking it from the point that you arrived there in the corridor where mrs. kennedy was seated, how long a time passed before it came to your knowledge that the president was dead? mr. o'brien. i cannot recall the length of time i had with specific knowledge. my impression is i had perhaps at the outset in the first seconds or minutes, i had some doubt this had occurred. i think perhaps what happened is that it penetrated, without a specific statement by anyone. i just had to conclude this had occurred, and it became obvious. at that point, however, mr. powers, mr. o'donnell, and i were not at all sure that this had penetrated with mrs. kennedy for a few minutes. mr. adams. do you remember anything about a priest? mr. o'brien. yes; i do. i recall that mr. o'donnell told me that he had asked the staff, or it might have been a secret service man, or hospital staff person--in any event--someone to immediately secure a priest. there was no priest on the premises. and he had assumed perhaps a priest was en route, because by that time the knowledge that something serious had occurred certainly had become known through police radio and what-have-you. but the priest arrived in a relatively short time. i don't know the specific time. but it didn't seem to be an awful long time. and, as a matter of fact, my recollection is that a second priest arrived, and then a third priest. mr. adams. and you don't know who they were? mr. o'brien. i do not. mr. adams. during this interval, between the time that you arrived where mrs. kennedy was seated and the time it was officially determined that the president was dead, do you recall any conversation with mrs. kennedy? mr. o'brien. no conversation other than, "is there anything we can do for you?" or a conversation of that nature in very brief and occasional sentences--no conversation as such. mr. adams. did mr. powers stay with you all that time? mr. o'brien. yes; he did. mr. adams. mr. o'donnell? mr. o'brien. yes. mr. adams. did there come a time when mr. o'donnell left? mr. o'brien. mr. o'donnell, at one point we discussed the situation--and mr. o'donnell at one point determined that he should cross the corridor and advise the vice president of what the situation appeared to be at that moment. and as i recall, it was the conclusion that this was an extremely serious matter, we hadn't any formal advice or official advice on the situation, but the seriousness of it should be imparted to the vice president. he left briefly for that purpose, i assume, and returned to the position where we had been standing. mr. adams. how did it come officially to your notice that the president was dead? mr. o'brien. again, i just don't know. it was a matter of standing for what seemed to be an interminable period of time--i have no idea the specific time--and, again, i cannot recall a specific instance when an announcement was made. it was more just finally having what gradually became obvious penetrate with you, it was, that it was an actuality. mr. adams. how was the fact conveyed to mrs. kennedy? do you remember that? mr. o'brien. i don't remember a specific conversation by anyone with her. people came to her, hospital staff people, doctors from time to time that would lean down and whisper to her. i don't know whether at one of those occasions this was specifically stated. i think, again, perhaps it was just gradually we all came to a conclusion. mr. adams. well, at any rate, after the fact was--had, as you well put it, had penetrated, what happened next, as far as you know? mr. o'brien. our concern, in our discussions--mr. o'donnell and i discussed what should be done. our major concern was that obviously you just could not leave mrs. kennedy sitting in this chair, drenched in blood. something certainly had to take place. in that context, we felt steps should be taken to remove the president from the hospital. and someone, either mr. powers or mr. o'donnell, had suggested at one point during the several minutes, that mrs. kennedy might want to retire to a room a couple of doors down the corridor. our attempt to bring this about was not successful, because she started to walk and then turned around and said, "i want to stay with him." and she went back to the chair. mr. o'donnell, at a point in these proceedings, issued the directions to the secret service to secure a coffin. as i recall it, the coffin arrived in a very reasonable time. whoever handled those arrangements certainly did it--carried out his responsibility well, because--again, time had a way of going on, and it is hard to determine a matter of minutes. but the coffin arrived, in any event, and was wheeled into the room. mr. adams. did mr. o'donnell leave at this point--did he leave mrs. kennedy and go somewhere else, do you recall? mr. o'brien. he, as i recall, again, went to the room in which the vice president was waiting, to tell him specifically that the president had died, and to discuss with him the steps to move the vice president out of the hospital and to the airport and on to washington. mr. adams. did mr. o'donnell come back and tell you about that discussion? mr. o'brien. he came back and told me that he had advised the president, and he had had a discussion with the president. and i don't remember any of the details of it. mr. adams. that covered two basic points--that president kennedy's body was to be removed from the hospital forthwith, and the other was that the vice president was to return to washington? mr. o'brien. that is right. mr. adams. what were the reasons that led to the decision, if you know, that the vice president would return to washington? mr. o'brien. i believe it was in the context of the death of the president, what steps, if any, were necessary for the vice president to assume the responsibility of the office forthwith, and our great concern about the situation in which mrs. kennedy was being left in this corridor, without any plan for taking care of her. so i think the basic idea was to leave the hospital. mr. adams. was there any discussion as to whether there might or might not be some general conspiracy? mr. o'brien. not with me. mr. adams. now---- mr. o'brien. i must add, however, that during the course of this, that none of us had any knowledge of actually what had occurred. and i am sure that some of us gave thought to what might still occur. we just had no idea. and we felt that certainly the first step was the protection of the new president and the taking care of mrs. kennedy as best we could. we tried to give some clarity of thoughts to the steps that were necessary. mr. adams. now, you discussed these problems with mr. o'donnell and mr. powers, i suppose. mr. o'brien. yes. mr. adams. and anyone else? mr. o'brien. i don't believe so. mr. adams. i will take you back to the point where the coffin arrived. what happened then? mr. o'brien. the coffin was wheeled into the emergency room. at that point, a man arrived on the scene who, i assume, was the coroner, or someone representing the coroner's office. i do not know his name. and he stated that the president could not be taken from the hospital. mr. adams. was this in mrs. kennedy's presence? mr. o'brien. i recall this conversation took place just outside those swinging doors with the glass panels. and i would--i believe, therefore, that she did not hear this conversation. mr. adams. now, at the time the coffin was wheeled into the emergency room, what did mrs. kennedy do? did she enter at that time, or at any time, so far as you recall? mr. o'brien. my recollection is that she did enter the room, but i don't recall it was at that time, and i am not sure what specific time. mr. adams. well, going back to this official who said the body could not be removed--you were present at that time with mr. o'donnell and mr. powers? mr. o'brien. yes. mr. adams. and what happened with respect to that discussion? mr. o'brien. well, dr. burkley, the president's physician, entered into that discussion. and as i recall he and this official went into a little room just outside these doors and carried on further discussion that seemed to involve members of the hospital staff and others. and the discussion went on for a period of several minutes. burkley--dr. burkley was quite exercised. it was apparent that this fellow was not going to--he was going to be adamant in his position. and very soon another official arrived on the scene that was described to me as a judge. mr. adams. does the name brown refresh your recollection? mr. o'brien. i don't know as i heard his name. but he was then described as the judge--a judge, and the indication was that he, therefore, was in a higher position of authority than the other official that had been carrying on this discussion with dr. burkley. he was equally adamant. the reference was made, either specifically by him or by someone in the official group, that this had to be treated as just another homicide, and that no other--no special considerations could be given to the problem. that, of course, increased our concern about mrs. kennedy, who said she would not leave her husband, and that we could envision mrs. kennedy in that state in the hospital for hours or even longer. so, therefore, it was our determination that the president should be taken from the hospital. mr. adams. this was the determination of you, mr. o'donnell, and dr. burkley? mr. o'brien. that is right. mr. adams. then what happened? mr. o'brien. the casket was brought out from the emergency room, wheeled out through these two folding doors. and the members of the secret service gathered around it. they had made a determination on their own as to the exit. an ambulance was waiting. preparations had been made by the secret service to accomplish this. and we all--mr. o'donnell, mr. powers and i, general mchugh, and two or three members of the secret service proceeded to push the coffin down this corridor. my recollection is that objections were still being raised by some or all officials. my recollection is also that we paid little heed to it. mr. adams. these were vigorous objections, i gather. mr. o'brien. i would say they were. and the only very minor problem that occurred in reaching the exit was that the priest who was third in point of arrival was still present. the other two priests had departed after expressing their condolences to mrs. kennedy. but this priest was standing in the corridor and was rather insistent that he formalize some prayers at that point. and i suggested to him that he step aside. our concern still was whether or not there was going to be an effective block put in our way. mr. adams. and who accompanied mrs. kennedy at that time? mr. o'brien. i believe in the grouping behind the casket that at one time mr. o'donnell, another time me, and another time perhaps mr. powers--but among us we escorted her along. mr. adams. then when you finally got the casket out through this corridor, and got it into the ambulance, how did you go to the airport? mr. o'brien. in a car that was parked alongside the ambulance. the driver in the car--mrs. kennedy went into the ambulance. and mr. o'donnell, mr. powers, and i went into the back seat of this car. mr. adams. was this a police car? mr. o'brien. it was an official car of some sort. mr. adams. at that time do you know whether or not the vice president had left the hospital? mr. o'brien. i do not know. mr. adams. had he arrived at love field by the time you got out there? mr. o'brien. yes. mr. adams. and what happened when you arrived at love field? mr. o'brien. well, again the secret service and those of us in the official party that had arrived at the field--i guess specifically again the three of us--helped to move the coffin up the steps of the plane. it was a difficult job, because the steps, of course, were the normal set of stairs for a plane, and, therefore, it was too narrow to accomplish this without some difficulty. but it was brought onto the plane. at that point i noticed that seats to the left of the door had been removed, leaving a floor space in the plane to place the coffin. we placed the coffin on the floor. then i looked up, and the president and mrs. johnson were at the corridor that would go into the compartment from that area of the plane. mrs. kennedy came aboard and was seated in the remaining two seats at a table to the left in the rear compartment, and mrs. johnson and the president went over to her. mr. adams. do you know how it came to pass that the president was sworn in at that time? mr. o'brien. the president and mrs. johnson, after a brief discussion with mrs. kennedy, went into the presidential compartment--i guess that is the best way to describe that section of the plane--this would be where the president's chair and desk are located. he asked mr. o'donnell to join him. during the course of these few minutes, it was my understanding that we were going to immediately depart. there was some confusion for a couple of minutes about departure. i was not privy to that. and the president asked the two of us to sit with him, at which point he said that he was awaiting a judge who was en route to swear him in--that he had secured the advice of the attorney general, which, as i understood it, was a preference in his view to have a swearing in ceremony immediately. and that this would be accomplished within a matter of minutes. so while we awaited the arrival of the judge, the president, mr. o'donnell and i, joined by mrs. johnson, after a couple of minutes, sat at this table with the four seats, and just discussed the fact that the departure would take place immediately following the swearing in ceremony. and during that period we briefly discussed the first step of the president to insure continuity, and either just before the swearing-in or immediately following it, the president discussed with mr. o'donnell and me his desire that we stay, as he put it, shoulder to shoulder with him. the judge arrived---- mr. adams. during that interval, who was staying with mrs. kennedy? mr. o'brien. mrs. kennedy had at that point gone into the restroom adjacent to the bedroom in the compartment. the judge arrived in minutes. and it was suggested that those in the--i guess the best way to describe it--the front of the plane, those who could move into the compartment, including those representing the press, a single photographer was brought aboard. the wording of the oath was available. the judge took her position. the president said that he certainly wanted mrs. kennedy with him at this moment. i went to the bedroom. the door to the adjoining restroom was closed. i went out and asked mrs. lincoln if she would see if mrs. kennedy was available. she went in and came out with mrs. kennedy, and she took her place to the president's left, mrs. johnson to the president's right, the others grouped around. i stood behind the judge, and just as the judge was to start the ceremony, a member of the crew handed me a small bible in a white box. i took the bible from the box, interrupted the judge just momentarily, and handed her the bible. she completed the ceremony. then everyone immediately settled down. the judge departed from the plane, the photographer from the plane. everyone settled down, and we took off without further delay. mr. adams. as a matter of detail, do you happen to know what happened to the bible? mr. o'brien. i do not know. mr. adams. the plane then departed immediately? mr. o'brien. that is correct. mr. adams. and---- mr. o'brien. mr. o'donnell and i went to the rear compartment where we joined mr. powers and general mchugh. mrs. kennedy was seated in one of the two chairs. mr. o'donnell took the other chair. the three of us stood. the plane took off. and we remained with mrs. kennedy for the duration of the trip to washington. we consulted, or were consulted by general clifton and mr. moyers on two or three occasions during the trip, on arrangements for the president's activity upon arrival here in washington. one suggestion was made that we--that they call in for a meeting of the white house staff. but that was discarded as impractical at this point. arrangements were made, however, which mr. moyers checked with me, on the calling of the bipartisan leaders to a meeting with the president, and arrangements were put in effect for the president to meet the under secretary of state in the absence of the secretary and other officials here. mr. adams. how did it come about that the remains of president kennedy were taken to the naval hospital? mr. o'brien. it was my understanding that the president would be taken to a hospital. i don't recall any discussion of the reason specifically other than my assumption that the autopsy would take place at one of the military hospitals in washington. and obviously there were two to select from, and the president being an ex-navy man, it seemed just sort of normal to suggest bethesda. mr. adams. and you remained with mrs. kennedy during the entire trip? mr. o'brien. yes; i did. mr. adams. what was her condition? mr. o'brien. she conversed a great deal with us. the one impression left with me from the entire trip and conversations with mrs. kennedy during the trip, participated in by all of us, was her great concern for us, really--her feeling that we had, as she put it, been with him at the beginning and we were with him at the end. we were all bereft. and i am afraid that the four of us who felt that we should be of some comfort to her were inadequate to the job in the sense that it was difficult for us to come up with anything that made much sense by way of being helpful. mr. adams. do you remember any other general subjects of discussion as you made the trip up? mr. o'brien. no; i do not. mr. adams. what happened when you arrived? mr. o'brien. a lift was placed at the rear door of the plane. the honor guard came up the front steps, through the plane, to the back compartment. we concluded that we would take the body off the plane. mr. adams. you say "we." you mean mr. powers, mr. o'donnell, and yourself? mr. o'brien. general mchugh. and so we proceeded to do just that. we took the--lifted the coffin, with the help of the crew people, and placed it on the lift, and it was taken from there. we--the three of us--four of us--mchugh was with us--got into a car. the attorney general and mrs. kennedy went into the ambulance, if that is what it was. and we followed in a car directly behind that, went out to bethesda naval hospital. mr. adams. what did you do when you arrived there? mr. o'brien. we went immediately to an upper floor of the hospital, where we joined members of the president's family. general mchugh went elsewhere. and we then spent several hours in these rooms on, i don't know what floor of the hospital. mr. adams. when you referred to the president's family, what particular members were there? mr. o'brien. well, mrs. stephen smith was there. mr. adams. mrs. attorney general kennedy? mr. o'brien. yes. i don't recall all the members of the family. the attorney general--and there were--there was an occasional person that came and went during the night but that was basically the group. we had coffee and received reports from time to time from general mchugh as to the length of time it would take for the trip from bethesda to the white house. and the hours went on and on, until the early hours of the morning--perhaps a.m. mr. adams. and then what did you do? mr. o'brien. we came to the white house, at which point several members of the white house staff, mr. shriver, were awaiting the arrival of the president. he was placed in the east room. a brief prayer was given, and that terminated the evening. mr. adams. i would like to ask you to go back again and give me your recollections of the president's views about the nature of the protection that should be afforded him, or what his attitude was towards security. mr. o'brien. i cannot recall any specific conversation i had with the president in this area. all i can say is that the president at all times was most interested in close contact with his fellow americans, and in that sense he was quick to move to a fence that separated him from the people, he was quick to move towards people. he certainly moved quite freely. but i do not recall ever having a conversation or being present during the course of a conversation when the specific protective measures were discussed or what his views were relative to them. mr. adams. other than what you have said here, do you have any knowledge at all about the person who did the shooting, whoever it might be? mr. o'brien. none whatsoever. mr. adams. do you have any other thing i have not covered that you would like to put in this record? mr. o'brien. i don't believe so. i believe that to the best of my recollection i have tried to carefully review all aspects of the matter, from departure from the lawn of the white house to arrival back at the white house. and i cannot call anything to mind now that i might have overlooked. mr. adams. now, finally, it is a custom in this commission to make transcripts available to the witnesses if they want to read them before signing them, or if you would like you can waive that. that is entirely up to you. mr. o'brien. i would like to have the transcript. mr. adams. then we will send it along in the next few days, and when you have an opportunity to consider it, if you will just send it back to the commission we would appreciate it. mr. o'brien. i certainly will. mr. adams. that closes this deposition. affidavit of david f. powers the following affidavit was executed by david f. powers on may , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy district of columbia, _ss_: i, david f. powers, make the following affidavit concerning my knowledge of the events of november and , . i traveled to texas with the presidential party on november , , on af- . after a stop in houston, we spent the night in fort worth, texas. on the evening of november st, we were discussing the size of the crowd in the rice university stadium at houston, and the president asked me how i thought it compared with the crowd the last time he was there. i said that the crowd was about the same as the one which came to see him before but there were , extra people on hand who came to see mrs. kennedy. president kennedy then made a comment to mrs. kennedy to the effect that she was a great asset on the trip and that seemed to make her happy, although at that particular moment she was very tired, having spent many hours that day traveling in the plane and on motorcades. the next day we proceeded on to dallas and arrived at love field at approximately : a.m. the president and mrs. kennedy were in high spirits and as they were leaving the plane i jokingly remarked to the two of them that they looked like mr. and mrs. america and that they should not both wave in the same direction as it would be too much for anyone to receive all that attention at once. they were the first to leave the presidential plane (af- ) and were greeted by vice president and mrs. johnson (whose plane had already arrived at dallas), along with other members of the dallas reception committee. president and mrs. kennedy then went over to greet the airport crowd which was standing behind an iron fence. i was assigned to ride in the secret service automobile which proceeded immediately behind the president's car in the motorcade. that secret service follow-up automobile was an open car with two special agents in the front seat, two special agents in the rear seat and two special agents on each of the two running boards. i sat in the jump seat on the right side of the car and kenneth o'donnell sat in the jump seat on the left side of the car. the crowd in dallas was very friendly and very enthusiastic. in my opinion it was twice as large as the crowd that was present when mr. kennedy campaigned in dallas in . kenneth o'donnell and i were observing the size and disposition of the crowd in order to evaluate the local political situation. president kennedy was sitting on the extreme right-hand side of his automobile, with his arm extending as much as two feet beyond the right edge of the car, and mrs. kennedy was seated on the extreme left of the back seat. they were seated at the opposite ends of the back seat in order to give their full attention to the crowds on each side. as we proceeded through dallas the motorcade slowed down on a number of occasions, but i do not believe it ever stopped. when we passed through the heart of dallas, the crowds were about ten deep. we then turned off of main street onto houston and made the sharp swing to the left up elm street. at that time we were traveling very slowly, no more than miles an hour. in accordance with my custom, i was very much concerned about our timing and at just about that point i looked at my watch and noted that it was almost exactly : p.m., which was the time we were due at the trade mart. i commented to ken o'donnell that it was : and we would only be about five minutes late when we arrived at the trade mart. shortly thereafter the first shot went off and it sounded to me as if it were a firecracker. i noticed then that the president moved quite far to his left after the shot from the extreme right hand side where he had been sitting. there was a second shot and governor connally disappeared from sight and then there was a third shot which took off the top of the president's head and had the sickening sound of a grapefruit splattering against the side of a wall. the total time between the first and third shots was about or seconds. my first impression was that the shots came from the right and overhead, but i also had a fleeting impression that the noise appeared to come from the front in the area of the triple overpass. this may have resulted from my feeling, when i looked forward toward the overpass, that we might have ridden into an ambush. at about the time of the third shot, the president's car accelerated sharply, with the follow-up car driving right behind it. mrs. kennedy climbed onto the back of the car. perhaps she may have been looking for help and perhaps she really didn't know what she was doing. i think special agent clinton hill saved her life by climbing up on the back of the car and pushing her into the back seat because she probably would have fallen off the rear end of the car and would have been right in the path of the other cars proceeding in the motorcade. we proceeded at a high rate of speed to parkland hospital. upon arriving at the emergency entrance, i raced over to where president kennedy lay and special agent hill and i, along with special agent kellerman, placed him on a stretcher. the three of us and special agent greer pushed him into the emergency area. i stayed with mrs. kennedy the entire time at the hospital. she went in and out of the emergency room and when she wasn't in the emergency room, she sat on a chair right outside the emergency room door. i believe ken o'donnell went to call the attorney general as soon as we arrived at the hospital. i accompanied the president's body and mrs. kennedy on the trip from the hospital to the airport. some seats were removed from a rear compartment of the president's plane and the casket was placed there. on the trip back to washington, mrs. kennedy refused to change her clothes or eat, but did sip some coffee. upon arriving at andrews air force base, mrs. kennedy declined to take a helicopter to bethesda naval hospital but instead chose to ride with president kennedy's body in the hearse. kenneth o'donnell and i stayed with mrs. kennedy and the other members of the president's family at bethesda until the early hours of the morning on november , . signed the th day of may at washington, d.c. (s) david f. powers, david f. powers. affidavit of clifton c. carter the following affidavit was executed by clifton c. carter on may , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy district of columbia, _ss_: i, clifton c. carter, make the following affidavit concerning my knowledge of the events of november , . vice president johnson and i had been in texas during the week preceding november nd, and we had met the party of president kennedy in san antonio, texas, on thursday, november , . i was on the vice president's plane (af- ) when it landed at dallas love field on november at about : a.m. vice president and mrs. johnson left their plane and joined the reception party which greeted president and mrs. kennedy, who arrived in the president's plane (af- ). president and mrs. kennedy then shook hands with people in the crowd along an iron fence. while the presidential party greeted the crowd, i went to the automobile where i was to ride in the motorcade. it was a secret service vehicle assigned to follow and protect the vice president. our car was right behind the vice president's automobile, which was immediately to the rear of the presidential secret service follow-up car, which drove right behind the president's automobile. the automobile in which i rode was driven by a dallas policeman. i sat in the middle of the front seat and held some radio equipment on my lap. special agent jerry d. kivett sat on my right and special agent len johns and someone else were in the rear seat. this was an unmarked dallas police car. nothing unusual occurred on the motorcade route from love field to the downtown dallas area. the crowds were very large and very friendly, except for two or three signs which contained derogatory comments about president kennedy. i would estimate that the crowds were twice as big as they were in september of when mr. kennedy campaigned in dallas. the motorcade slowed down at times, but i do not believe that it stopped. the motorcade proceeded west on main street, made a right-hand turn onto houston and then swung around to the left on elm, proceeding slowly at about to miles per hour. at approximately : p.m., our car had just made the left-hand turn off houston onto elm street and was right along side of the texas school book depository building when i heard a noise which sounded like a firecracker. special agent youngblood, who was seated on the right-hand side of the front seat of vice president johnson's car immediately turned and pushed vice president johnson down and in the same motion vaulted over the seat and covered the vice president with his body. at that instant mrs. johnson and senator yarborough, who were riding in the back seat along with the vice president, bent forward. special agent youngblood's action came immediately after the first shot and before the succeeding shots. i distinctly remember three shots. there was an interval of approximately to seconds from the first to the last shot, and the three shots were evenly spaced. the motorcade promptly accelerated and traveled at high speeds up to to miles an hour to parkland memorial hospital. the president's automobile, the president's follow-up car, the vice president's automobile, and the vice president's follow-up car pulled into the emergency entrance at parkland. attendants from the hospital with two stretchers carried president kennedy and governor connally into the hospital. at one point i briefly helped remove governor connally from the car onto the stretcher. after president kennedy and governor connally had been taken into the hospital, vice president johnson, mrs. johnson, special agent youngblood and i entered the emergency area and were taken to a small room where we waited. i went out on a couple of occasions to secure coffee. congressmen henry gonzalez, jack brooks, homer thornberry and albert thomas came into the room where vice president johnson waited. about o'clock mrs. johnson left the room, stating that she wanted to visit with mrs. kennedy and mrs. connally. at : p.m. special agent emory roberts brought the news that president kennedy was dead. at that moment the only people present were vice president johnson, congressman thornberry, special agent len johns, and i. special agent roberts advised vice president johnson to return to the white house forthwith because of the concern of the secret service that there might be a widespread plot to assassinate vice president johnson as well as president kennedy. vice president johnson then asked that kenny (o'donnell) and larry (o'brien) be consulted to determine what their views were on returning promptly to washington. kenny and larry came down and told vice president johnson that they agreed he should return to washington immediately. vice president johnson then asked me to try to alert some of the members of his staff to go to the airport for the return trip to washington. i then proceeded to look for those members of the staff, and i was later driven to love field by a young dallas policeman. by the time i returned to the presidential plane (af- ), vice president and mrs. johnson had already boarded the plane and arrangements had already been made to have vice president johnson sworn-in as the president. i do not have any personal knowledge of vice president johnson's conversation with attorney general kennedy concerning the advisability of a prompt swearing-in or of the arrangements to have judge sara hughes participate in that ceremony. i was present at the swearing-in and shortly thereafter the president's plane took off for the washington area. the original conversations concerning president kennedy's trip to texas occurred on june , at the cortez hotel in el paso, texas. president kennedy had spoken earlier that day at the air force academy and vice president johnson had spoken at annapolis. the president and vice president met with governor connally at the cortez hotel to discuss a number of matters, including a trip by the president to texas. fred korth and i were present when the three men assembled, but fred korth and i left during their discussion of the president's proposed trip. the first tentative date was to have the trip coincide with vice-president johnson's birthday on august th, but that was rejected because it was too close to labor day. president kennedy's other commitments prevented him from coming to texas any sooner than november st, which was the date finally set. signed this th day of may . (s) clifton c. carter, clifton c. carter. testimony of earle cabell the testimony of earle cabell was taken at a.m., on july , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. leon d. hubert, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. sam kelley, assistant attorney general of texas, was present. mr. hubert. this is the deposition of hon. earle cabell, mayor of the city of dallas. mr. cabell. former mayor. mr. hubert. is that right? mr. cabell. i resigned in february. mr. hubert. mr. cabell, my name is leon d. hubert. i am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the president's commission. under the provisions of executive order dated november , , and the joint resolution of congress no. , and the rules of procedure adopted by the president's commission in conformance with that executive order and the joint resolution, i have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, among others. i state to you now that the general nature of the commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relevant to the assassination of president kennedy and the subsequent violent death of lee harvey oswald. in particular as to you, mr. cabell, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. now mr. cabell, you appeared today by virtue of a letter which i understand was received by you on either july or , written by mr. j. lee rankin, general counsel of the president's commission; is that correct? mr. cabell. that is correct. mr. hubert. would you stand and raise your right hand? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. cabell. i do. mr. hubert. will you please state your name for the record? mr. cabell. my name is earle cabell. mr. hubert. what is your residence? mr. cabell. my place of residence is drane drive, dallas, tex. mr. hubert. mr. cabell, i understand that you were formerly the mayor of dallas, but you resigned about or months ago? mr. cabell. i was installed as mayor of dallas may , , for a -year term. was reinstalled may , , upon reelection. resigned that office on february , , to become a candidate for the house of representatives of the united states. mr. hubert. prior to your becoming mayor, what occupation did you have? i simply want to get some background for the record. mr. cabell. for the past -odd years i have been engaged in dairy products and food retailing in the city of dallas and surrounding areas. mr. hubert. you still have that business? mr. cabell. no; i am not connected with that business officially any longer. i retain my office at the former headquarters of that company, which is commerce street. i am on a retainer with the company in an advisory capacity. mr. hubert. mr. cabell, we are interested in a number of matters, but i think we can cover much of the ground by asking you to comment upon an interview of you by fbi agents warren debrueys and george carlson on december , , which i have marked for identification as follows: on the first page in the right-hand margin i have marked "dallas, texas, july , , exhibit no. , deposition of honorable earle cabell." i have signed my name under that and on each of these succeeding three pages i have marked my initials in the right-hand lower corner. exhibit no. consists therefore of pages. mr. cabell, i think you have had an opportunity to read this exhibit no. ; is that right? mr. cabell. i have read it. mr. hubert. now i ask you if the exhibit, which is, as i have said, a report of an interview of you by the fbi agents named, is an accurate and fair statement of the conference or interview had between you? mr. cabell. it is entirely so. mr. hubert. do you have any corrections or additions? mr. cabell. i find no corrections or additions to make to that statement. mr. hubert. for the record, i would like you to state briefly just what was the chain of command of governmental authority in the city of dallas, starting with you, i take it, as the top, on down at least to the police department. mr. cabell. under the charter of the city of dallas, the city council is composed of councilmen and the mayor, the mayor having the status of a councilman, but also being the presiding officer elected by the people at large as the mayor. he is the presiding officer and the spokesman for the council. the council does not have administrative responsibilities nor authority. the council is a legislative and policymaking body who appoint the city manager, among certain other city officials or department heads. the city manager in turn has the discretion of appointing those department heads under his direct jurisdiction, including the appointment of the chief of police. the council, by ordinance, is not authorized to, and in fact is prohibited from taking direct administrative action through or over any of the department heads appointed by and responsible to the city manager. mr. hubert. how many members compose the council, sir? mr. cabell. eight members, in addition to the mayor. mr. hubert. they are elected? mr. cabell. they are all elected by the citizens of dallas at large. that is, they are all voted upon. mr. hubert. now the city manager, as i understand it, is appointed by the council or by the mayor? mr. cabell. no; the city manager is appointed by the council, by council action. mr. hubert. now the city manager on november through , , was mr. crull? mr. cabell. elgin e. crull. mr. hubert. of course, for the record, you were then mayor? mr. cabell. that is correct. mr. hubert. i think it might be well also for the record if we have the names of the people that composed the council at that time. mr. cabell. the council at that time was composed of mr. carie welch. he was also mayor pro tem. mr. william roberts, mrs. tracy rutherford, mr. joe moody, mr. joe golman, mrs. elizabeth blessing, mr. george underwood, jr., mr. r. b. carpenter. mr. hubert. i understand that mr. crull had been serving as city manager for quite some time? mr. cabell. something over years. mr. hubert. could you describe briefly for us the relationship between the mayor and the council and the city manager? mr. cabell. well, it is the relationship of the general manager of a corporate entity and his board of directors, with most day-to-day contact being made through the mayor as the presiding officer of that board. mr. hubert. in other words, the city manager really has the detailed administration of city affairs? mr. cabell. he is entirely responsible for the administrative functions of the city government. mr. hubert. now, the mayor, then, is responsible for policies with the council; is that correct? mr. cabell. as the presiding officer, the mayor has only one vote on the action of the council, as any other councilman, but by virtue of being the presiding officer and the spokesman of the council, then on day-to-day routine matters, the contact of the city manager is through the mayor. mr. hubert. does the council make any other appointments than the appointment of the city manager? mr. cabell. yes; the direct appointees of the council are the city attorney, the city secretary, the supervisor of public utilities, and the city auditor, with the city auditor being nominated by the dallas clearing house association. mr. hubert. i understand then that the chief of police is appointed by the city manager completely? mr. cabell. that is correct; and is responsible only to the city manager. mr. hubert. does the city council or mayor confirm the appointees of the city manager? what authority do they have? mr. cabell. they confirm by virtue of approval of the budget wherein their salaries are stipulated and they are named. mr. hubert. but it is not an appointment such as with federal officials where the president appoints and the city confirms? mr. cabell. no. mr. hubert. now i want to ask you to state what you observed concerning the actual shooting of the president, and perhaps the best way to start is to tell us what position you were in in the presidential parade. mr. cabell. we were separated from the president's car by the car in which the vice president and senator yarborough were riding, and by a station wagon holding, i think, certain members of the press and possibly some secret service, and i believe one other car of secret service so there were either two or three intervening cars between our place in the motorcade and the presidential car. mr. hubert. who was in your car other than the driver? mr. cabell. mrs. cabell and congressman ray roberts from mckinney, tex., congressman from the fourth district, and myself. mr. hubert. just the three of you? mr. cabell. that is correct. mr. hubert. do you remember who the driver was? mr. cabell. i do not remember his name. he was a member of the department of public safety of the state of texas. mr. hubert. when did you observe anything at all relative to the shooting of the president? mr. cabell. well, we were just rounding the corner of market and elm, making the left turn, when the first shot rang out. mr. hubert. would you describe what you saw or heard, please, sir? mr. cabell. i heard the shot. mrs. cabell said, "oh a gun" or "a shot", and i was about to deny and say "oh it must have been a firecracker" when the second and the third shots rang out. there was a longer pause between the first and second shots than there was between the second and third shots. they were in rather rapid succession. there was no mistaking in my mind after that, that they were shots from a high-powered rifle. mr. hubert. are you familiar with rifles so that your statement that it was your opinion it came from a high-powered rifle was that of a person who knows something about it? mr. cabell. i have done a great deal of hunting and also used military shoulder guns, as well as hunting rifles. mr. hubert. were you in the armed services during the war? mr. cabell. no; i was not, but there was no question in my mind as to their being from a high-powered rifle and coming from the direction of the building known as the school book depository. mr. hubert. that you judged, i suppose, by the direction from which you thought the sound came? mr. cabell. right. mr. hubert. could you estimate the number of seconds, say, between the first and second shots, as related to the number of seconds between the second and third shots? perhaps doing it on the basis of a ratio? mr. cabell. well, i would put it this way. that approximately seconds, elapsed between the first and second shots, with not more than seconds having elapsed until the third one. mr. hubert. two to one ratio? mr. cabell. approximately that. and again i say that, as you mentioned, as a matter of being relative. i couldn't tell you the exact seconds because they were not counted. mr. hubert. now when you became conscious that these were shots and that they seemed to be coming from the building known as the texas school book depository building, did you look toward that building? mr. cabell. my back was turned to it at the time, because i was riding in the front seat and was conversing with mrs. cabell and mr. roberts. mr. hubert. who were in the back? and you were next to the driver? mr. cabell. i was sitting in the front seat with the driver. this was a convertible in which we were riding with the top down. mr. hubert. so that actually the shots seemed to you to come from behind? mr. cabell. from behind. mr. hubert. did you turn in the direction of the shots? mr. cabell. i turned then, rather looking down toward the presidential car, and then i saw the people scattering and some throwing themselves on the ground. one man threw himself over a child that was sitting in the grass there. i did not observe anything in connection with the building itself. mr. hubert. you did not see anybody in any of the windows? mr. cabell. no. mr. hubert. now i think you mentioned that mrs. cabell made a remark to you, "oh, that is a shot." i take it from what you have said, that remark was made immediately after the first shot? mr. cabell. just immediately; yes. mr. hubert. and before the second and third, is that right? mr. cabell. and really before i could get my answer out--i think it was motivated by wishful thinking as much as anything else, to deny or to say possibly it wasn't--then the second and third shots rang out. mr. hubert. were there any other spontaneous remarks made by anyone else in the car? mr. cabell. well, in the discussion which followed, both mr. roberts and myself said that it must have been from a gun similar to a . - . mr. hubert. by spontaneous, i meant those remarks made just immediately, not the discussion thereafter, you see. mr. cabell. i don't remember. mr. hubert. so you do not recall any remarks made by anyone else of a spontaneous nature? mr. cabell. no; i don't. mr. hubert. well, what did you do after the shots were fired and the presidential car and the vice presidential car went on? mr. cabell. then we just followed and told the driver to follow them. mr. hubert. you went on then to the---- mr. cabell. we went on to the hospital. we could not tell whether they were just going back to the airport or going toward the hospital. now there was a question raised among us as to where we were headed. mr. hubert. you didn't in fact know who had been hit, i take it? mr. cabell. no; we couldn't tell. we could tell, of course, there was confusion in the presidential car--activity. the secret service men ran to that car. from out of nowhere appeared one secret service man with a submachine gun. his attention seemed to be focused up toward the building. one of the motorcycle officers and the escort pulled his motorcycle over to the side and jumped off with his drawn handgun and ran up the slope toward the building, toward the school book depository. i do not recall any other shots being fired than the three which i mentioned. mr. hubert. i take it also that you got to the hospital very shortly after the presidential car did? mr. cabell. of course, when we turned off of stemmons expressway, we knew then that we were headed toward parkland. otherwise, we would have proceeded on stemmons to mockingbird lane, which would have been the direct route to the airport. mr. hubert. when you got to the hospital, had the president been removed from the car? mr. cabell. he was in the process of being removed; was on the carriage. another carriage was brought out, and i was there and helped to steady the carriage when the governor was taken out of the car and placed on the carriage and wheeled in. and i helped escort the carriage on into the hospital into the anteroom and stayed there until the body was removed. mr. hubert. did you happen to go to the room in which a press conference was held, at which the official announcement was made of the president's death? mr. cabell. i was not in when any official thing--i assumed that the president was dead. mr. hubert. i was trying to get the anteroom or hallway that you described. where was this with reference to the outside door of the hospital, or the emergency room, or something of that sort? mr. cabell. well, this was in the emergency section. there is a large anteroom with a glassed-in enclosure where telephones were, and then off from that larger room was a narrow anteroom from which a series of operating rooms connected. the president was in one of those, and directly across this little hallway then was where governor connally was. mr. hubert. were there any news people in that area? mr. cabell. yes; i am sure there must have been. i don't recall any whom i recognized personally. mr. hubert. specifically, do you know a reporter, newspaperman now with scripps-howard, by the name of seth kantor? mr. cabell. i can't recall. mr. hubert. now there is some information, mr. cabell, that jack ruby was around the hospital some place, either near the entrance or near the pressroom, or something of that sort. and, of course, i take it that you now know what he looks like, from pictures in the press? mr. cabell. well, i knew him by sight. mr. hubert. you knew him by sight prior to this? mr. cabell. yes. mr. hubert. how long had you known him? mr. cabell. i would say for several years. mr. hubert. did you see him around the hospital then at any time? mr. cabell. no; i did not. mr. hubert. and you stayed until the president's body was removed? mr. cabell. yes. mr. hubert. what did you do after that, sir? mr. cabell. we went--mrs. cabell accompanied me and went back to love field. there was a number of members of the texas delegation to the congress who had accompanied the president and vice president on the trip down here, and i more or less took them in tow and secured a station wagon from the vehicles that were outside the hospital and carried them, at the direction of one of the secret service agents who was more or less in charge in there, to the southwest airmotive side of love field, which is the eastern side, because he advised me that air force i would take off from that side. so there was some with us in our car, and then the station wagon with the additional ones. when we got to southwest airmotive, air force i was still parked on the west side of the field where they had deplaned the passengers earlier. realizing that it was going to take off rather quickly, i asked the public relations man for southwest airmotive to get on the radio and contact the air force officer in charge through the control tower as to what to do about these men, whether to bring them over to that side, or was the plane going to come over there. we did not get a direct answer, but the squad car of the dallas police department, which is assigned to love field, came over and got us, apparently through clearance of the control tower, and carried us right straight across the field. apparently they stopped any movement to get us across the field. then those men were able to board the plane. mr. hubert. well, after you left the field, after air force i had left, what was your activity then, sir? mr. cabell. we stayed there on the ground until after _air force _ had taken off with the body of the president. we conferred for a few minutes with sheriff bill decker and chief of police curry. chief curry was in the plane and a witness to the swearing in of president johnson. shortly after it took off, then mrs. cabell, and i returned home. we dropped mrs. cabell off, and then the driver carried me to mr. jonsson's house where i left my car, and then i returned home. mr. hubert. when did you first know of the apprehension of lee harvey oswald? mr. cabell. on the field there, chief curry told us of the killing of officer tippit, and i believe told us at the same time that they had apprehended the suspect. mr. hubert. that is to say, the suspect of the killing of the president, or of tippit? mr. cabell. that he was one and the same. mr. hubert. did he tell you what information he had to indicate that the killer of tippit was also the assassin of the president? mr. cabell. only that it was believed that he was one and the same. now the details, i did not get at that time either concerning the killing of officer tippit or the subsequent apprehension of oswald. mr. hubert. what was your next contact with curry, if you recall? mr. cabell. i don't recall any further contact with curry. this was not a face to face or personal contact. it was telephonic concerning the issuance of this parade permit, which is covered in the report by the bureau man. mr. hubert. that was a conference by telephone on sunday the th? mr. cabell. that is correct. mr. hubert. you had no contact, to your knowledge, with him? mr. cabell. i don't recall any further contact with chief curry. mr. hubert. did you have a contact with any other member of the police department? mr. cabell. no. mr. hubert. did you have any knowledge of the situation in the county jail with reference to the news media? mr. cabell. that was the city jail. mr. hubert. i beg your pardon, city jail, with reference to the covering of the matter by the news media, and the confusion that came about as a result of that? mr. cabell. i knew fairly well what was going on by watching my own tv from time to time and the covering that they had on the activities around the police department of the city hall. mr. hubert. was there any meeting of the council during the interval between the d and the th? mr. cabell. no. mr. hubert. did you have any contact with city manager crull during that time? mr. cabell. the sunday morning, i knew that the city manager was out of town, and in my conversation with chief curry subsequent to the shooting of oswald, i asked him if he had made contact with mr. crull, and suggested that if he had not, that he do make immediate contact and ask for his return to the city. mr. hubert. that was after the shooting of oswald? mr. cabell. this was after the shooting of oswald. and he told me at that time that mr. crull had been contacted and was on his way back. mr. hubert. did you know prior to the shooting of oswald, or have you learned since whether there was any awareness in the police department of possible danger to oswald? mr. cabell. no, no. after it had all occurred, then i recall having been told by someone that there had been an attempt, or that an attempt would be made, but that is not clear, and purely a matter of hearsay. mr. hubert. i believe in your conversation with chief curry on sunday, you discussed a threat that had been made to you, or indirectly? mr. cabell. he called me that this call had come through the switchboard of the city hall, and it was his understanding that it was long distance, but he did not know the source, and since it was a direct dial and they could not trace it, there was not enough time, wherein the caller said that an attempt would be made on my life. mr. hubert. he told you that was a long-distance call? mr. cabell. it was his impression, the switchboard operator's impression that it was some long distance. mr. hubert. that was prior to oswald's death? mr. cabell. no; that was following oswald's death, and that is when he told me that he was sending officers out to maintain security. mr. hubert. attached to page it seems to indicate that the call with curry must have occurred a bit before you received the news of oswald's shooting? mr. cabell. the first call from curry, or only the starting of any conversations with chief curry were relative to this torchlight parade on that night. i had called him and told him that i would recommend the cancellation of that parade. he had granted it, but then i had recommended the cancellation, and i would assume full responsibility for having given that instruction. mr. hubert. at that time oswald had not been shot? mr. cabell. no. mr. hubert. but on that first call then, was there any discussion between you and chief curry about the transfer of oswald? mr. cabell. no. mr. hubert. was there any discussion about the security precautions that were being observed or the problems that they were? mr. cabell. i do not recall any discussion on that at all. mr. hubert. chief curry did not tell you that any threats had been made to oswald? mr. cabell. no. mr. hubert. now during the period november until the shooting of oswald, did you have any conversations with the press concerning the whole matter? mr. cabell. there were a number of calls. there were members of the press, both the national and international press that came to my home during that period. i had given a statement on friday night to both television stations. mr. hubert. that was by---- mr. cabell. that was on friday. mr. hubert. on television? mr. cabell. yes. mr. hubert. do you recall whether any part of those statements or interviews had to do with the transfer of oswald? mr. cabell. none whatsoever. there was never any during that period. there was never any mention of that. it was not brought up nor discussed. mr. hubert. then later on sunday morning, i understand after the security call from chief curry, there was another call from him with regard to the death of oswald? mr. cabell. he called me. mr. hubert. i mean the shooting of oswald. mr. cabell. yes; the incident referred to here about a friend calling. mr. hubert. you say "here." you are referring to page of exhibit no. ? mr. cabell. "he received a telephone call from a friend." that friend was mrs. r. o. alexander who said, "do you have your television on?" and i said, no. she said, "get it on quick. they have just shot oswald." and i immediately turned my television on. i was in the den where i was sitting and taking these telephone calls, and then just as i get it turned on, they still had not removed oswald at that time because this was just a matter of a minute or from the actual shooting. then chief curry called and said, "they have just shot oswald." and i said, "yes; i have it on tv now." mr. hubert. was any action taken then by anybody, do you know, concerning, first, security measures or further protection against? mr. cabell. nothing to my knowledge. mr. hubert. i think i have asked this before. if i have, then just disregard it, but did you contact city manager crull during the interval? mr. cabell. no; i did not contact him. now he came to my home immediately on his return to the city. mr. hubert. which was about what time? mr. cabell. this was, well, it was early afternoon. mr. hubert. of the th? mr. cabell. this was on the th, on sunday; yes. it was about o'clock. mr. hubert. can you comment upon this lancaster smith proposal of a parade? mr. cabell. lane smith is a very well-known, very active lay worker in the catholic church, and he had called me earlier, and i think the suggestion for this came from some nuns, and when he first talked to me i didn't realize frankly the implications or the hazard of a procession such as that, and i told him--he asked about a permit, and i said that that is a matter that is handled by the chief of police, that he would have to be the one to issue a permit for any type of parade, because that is what that amounted to. mr. hubert. what was the proposal of mr. smith? mr. cabell. well, a torchlight procession of both the clergy and any lay people as a procession of mourning that would pass by the site of the assassination and put flowers at the site. mr. hubert. that was proposed for sunday night? mr. cabell. that was proposed for sunday night, and after having talked with him, then the implications began to dawn on me, and when i realized that that was in a rather poorly lighted area, it is not in the best part of town, and that the procession itself would pass possibly under the very window of the jail where oswald presumably would be by that time, then that was the reason behind my calling the chief then. he told me he had issued the permit because he had no reason not to, and then that is when i made the recommendation that it be canceled. mr. hubert. it was canceled in fact? mr. cabell. yes; it was. mr. hubert. before oswald was shot? mr. cabell. oh, i think undoubtedly, because he said he would call lanc immediately back. mr. hubert. when did lancaster smith call you? mr. cabell. i think it must have been around or o'clock in the morning, originally. mr. hubert. then you called chief curry about what time? mr. cabell. must have been very shortly after that. i would say o'clock or possibly a short time after. i believe that it must have been just a little before , because i think that he was talking to me in his office at the time word was brought to him that oswald was shot, or possibly had hung up the phone, or he would have mentioned that to me at the time. mr. hubert. because the evidence we now have shows that oswald was shot about : , so perhaps your time would have been rather than ? mr. cabell. yes; i was thinking in terms of o'clock being the hour of shooting, but we can move this conversation with curry to a matter of minutes preceding the shooting of oswald. mr. hubert. now were any threatening calls received by you directly? mr. cabell. only one, which was received by mrs. cabell on new year's eve. mr. hubert. december , ? mr. cabell. december , ; yes, sir. mr. hubert. were there any received indirectly? mr. cabell. only those that were reported to us by chief curry. there was one incident which was not a call, but which was an unusual thing and which caused a certain amount of apprehension. on a saturday evening, which one i can't tell you, but it was while security was being maintained, that i decided to go out and eat dinner. mrs. cabell did not want to go. she said she would just stay at home. one of the officers stayed with mrs. cabell. the other one accompanied me to tupinamba, a mexican cafe on lovers lane. i told mrs. cabell i would get mexican food there. there are three places in the immediate vicinity, all of which we patronize from time to time. the officer and i were in having our dinner when the proprietor came over and said that i was wanted on the phone. i picked up the receiver. i could hear traffic noises in the background, so i knew that the line was open. i said, hello several times, and the receiver clicked in my ear. i thought that mrs. cabell had possibly tried to get hold of me, and i called her, and she said, "no, she had not." so it was obvious that someone who was either in the restaurant and had left when we came in, or had seen us enter the restaurant, put in this call, apparently just a nuisance or harassing type of thing. mr. hubert. how long after you had been in the restaurant did this call come? mr. cabell. oh, a matter of or minutes. mr. hubert. you never found the source of that? mr. cabell. no. mr. hubert. was any investigation made? mr. cabell. there was no way of making an investigation. the assumption is that the call was placed from one of the public telephones that are up and down that business section there. mr. hubert. mr. cabell, there have been some reports as to the authenticity or veracity of, for which i do not vouch at all, to the effect that some pressure was put upon chief of police curry by you or others to cooperate with the press in all ways possible. i think in fairness i should give you an opportunity to comment upon that. mr. cabell. there was one that has been rumored. one of our local weekly publications made that as a statement. that is completely false. at no time did i have any contact with chief curry to the extent that i gave him any orders, instructions, or make any comment upon the situation other than the contact which i have mentioned with reference to this proposed torchlight parade. mr. hubert. do you know of any pressure put upon him by anyone in authority over him? mr. cabell. i do not know of any, and my assumption would be, and i say assumption, would be that none had been made, because i know how mr. crull operates to the extent that he would not interfere in the duties of his chief of police. now i am sure that they had conversations with reference to security and that sort of thing, but i would question very definitely that any orders as such on that subject would have been issued by mr. crull. mr. hubert. in any case, neither you nor anyone else, to your knowledge, did anything of that sort, to wit, bring pressure upon him in anyway whatsoever? mr. cabell. that is entirely correct. mr. hubert. mr. cabell, do you have anything else to say, sir? mr. cabell. no, sir; i don't know of anything else that i could add. mr. hubert. prior to the commencement of the recordation of your testimony, we had a very short conversation, but will you agree with me now that there was nothing that was discussed in that conversation relating to the testimony that has not been actually covered in the deposition? mr. cabell. that is correct. i recall no conversation of any sort pertaining to this incident that has not been covered in the examination under this deposition. mr. hubert. all right, sir, thank you very much. (the following questions were asked upon completion of the deposition of mrs. earle cabell.) mr. hubert. mayor cabell, i wonder if you would agree for just a couple of questions for your deposition to be continued under the same terms and conditions that i began, and that you are under the same oath? mr. cabell. yes. mr. hubert. i would like for you to comment, if you will, please, about the recordation of conversations on your telephone, telling us when the recordation system was set up, and when removed. mr. cabell. it was set up on sunday afternoon. that would have been the th; which recorded all conversations that came into action when the receiver was taken off the hook. it was removed on, i would say, after about weeks. i am quite sure that it had been removed prior to december . mr. hubert. have you yourself ever learned of any conversations that were of a threatening nature? mr. cabell. no. mr. hubert. you have not heard the tape, of course? mr. cabell. no; i have not. mr. hubert. it is reasonable to suppose that if any had been recorded, it would have been brought to your attention? mr. cabell. i am sure it would. mr. hubert. who has the possession of that tape? mr. cabell. the police department. mr. hubert. they still have it? mr. cabell. i am assuming that they still have it. mr. hubert. all right, thank you very much, sir. i certainly thank both of you. testimony of mrs. earle cabell the testimony of mrs. earle cabell was taken at a.m., on july , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. leon d. hubert, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. sam kelley, assistant attorney general of texas, was present. mr. hubert. this is the deposition of mrs. earle cabell. mrs. cabell, my name is leon d. hubert. i am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the president's commission. under the provisions of executive order dated november , , and the joint resolution of congress no. , and the rules of procedure adopted by the president's commission in conformance with that executive order and the joint resolution, i have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, among others. i state to you now that the general nature of the commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relevant to the assassination of president kennedy and the subsequent violent death of lee harvey oswald. in particular as to you, mrs. cabell, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. now mrs. cabell, you appear today by virtue of a letter addressed actually to you and your husband, mayor earle cabell, by mr. j. lee rankin, general counsel of the staff of the president's commission, is that correct? that letter was dated either the th or th, or in any case was received on the th or th of july? mrs. cabell. yes. mr. hubert. now will you stand, please, and take the oath? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mrs. cabell. i do. mr. hubert. please state your name for the record, please, ma'am. mrs. cabell. mrs. earle cabell. mr. hubert. you are the wife of former mayor earle cabell? mrs. cabell. yes. mr. hubert. you reside with him now at what address? mrs. cabell. drane. mr. hubert. mrs. cabell, i think you were with your husband in the presidential parade on november , ? mrs. cabell. that's right. mr. hubert. i wish you would tell us in your own words what you observed concerning the shooting of the president. i might say that your husband has testified that you were in the second or third car behind the president's car--the third or fourth car. mrs. cabell. third or fourth. we have never been able to be sure about that, because we were under the impression--of course, the chief of police's car preceded the presidential car, and we were under the impression that it was the presidential car, the vice presidential car, the station wagon apparently with secret service men, and then our car. there have been other statements made which we have never been quite sure of, that there was a secret service car between the presidential car and the vice presidential car. if that is true, we were one car further back. mr. hubert. you were sitting on the rear seat of the convertible? mrs. cabell. behind the driver. mr. hubert. behind the driver. that would have put---- mrs. cabell. me on the left. mr. hubert. who was on your right? mrs. cabell. congressman ray roberts? mr. hubert. your husband was seated to the left of the driver on the front seat? mrs. cabell. the right of the driver. mr. hubert. the right of the driver. now will you tell us in your own words, ma'am, what you saw and heard concerning the president's death? mrs. cabell. as my husband has told you, he had his back to the school depository building. he was looking back talking to us. congressman roberts was sitting just as this lady is now, and turned the same way. i was turned facing him. we were looking directly at each other. the position of our car was such that when that first shot rang out, my position was such that i did not have to turn to look at the building. i was directly facing it. mr. hubert. in other words, your car was still really on houston? mrs. cabell. no; we were making the turn. mr. hubert. just on the turn? mrs. cabell. just on the turn, which put us at the top of the hill, you see. mr. hubert. since you were actually turned toward representative roberts on your right? mrs. cabell. yes. mr. hubert. actually, you were facing---- mrs. cabell. the building. mr. hubert. the texas depository building? mrs. cabell. i was actually facing it. mr. hubert. what was the first thing you noticed of an extraordinary nature, or heard? mrs. cabell. i heard the shot, and without having to turn my head, i jerked my head up. mr. hubert. why did you do that? mrs. cabell. because i heard the direction from which the shot came, and i just jerked my head up. mr. hubert. what did you see? mrs. cabell. i saw a projection out of one of those windows. those windows on the sixth floor are in groups of twos. mr. hubert. in which window did you see the projection? mrs. cabell. i have always been a little confused about that, but i think it was the first window. mr. hubert. on what floor? mrs. cabell. on the top floor. now i cannot take oath and say which window. there was some confusion in my mind. mr. hubert. but you say there were double windows. is the confusion about whether it was the first or second double window, or the first or second window of the double windows? mrs. cabell. the first or second window of the first group of double windows. mr. hubert. what was this projection? mrs. cabell. i cannot tell you. it was rather long looking, the projection. mr. hubert. what did it seem like? an arm of an individual, or something mechanical? mrs. cabell. i did not know, because i did not see a hand or a head or a human form behind it. it was in just a fleeting second that i jerked my head up and i saw something in that window, and i turned around to say to earle, earle, it is a shot, and before i got the words out, just as i got the words out, he said, "oh, no; it must have been a----" the second two shots rang out. after that, there is a certain amount of confusion in my mind. i was acutely aware of the odor of gunpowder. i was aware that the motorcade stopped dead still. there was no question about that. mr. hubert. let me ask you, after the first shot and your observation of this object in that window as you have described it, you turned your attention from that window? mrs. cabell. that is right. mr. hubert. so that you were not looking in the direction of that window when the second and third shots were fired? mrs. cabell. no. mr. hubert. did you look in that direction thereafter? mrs. cabell. if i did, i don't recall. i am completely aware of the people running up that hill. i saw the man throw the child on the ground and throw himself. i saw a woman in a bright green dress throw herself on the ground. i saw the policeman running up the grassy slope. mr. hubert. you also mentioned that you were acutely aware of the smell of gunpowder? mrs. cabell. yes. mr. hubert. when was that relative to the shots? i mean how soon after? mrs. cabell. i cannot say for sure, because as i told you, the motorcade was stopped. and somewhere in there, congressman roberts said, "that is a . - ." i didn't know what a . - was. mr. hubert. did he say that after all the shots were fired? mrs. cabell. i believe so. there was much confusion. mr. hubert. and it was about that time that you observed the odor? mrs. cabell. of gunpowder. mr. hubert. that was when your car at least had come to a standstill? mrs. cabell. every car in the motorcade had come to a standstill. mr. hubert. therefore, of course, it was before you followed on to the hospital? mrs. cabell. yes. mr. hubert. did you make the observation to anyone at that time that you had smelled gunpowder? mrs. cabell. no; because there was too much confusion. but i mentioned it to congressman roberts when we were in washington a couple of weeks ago. mr. hubert. did he say that he had observed it? mrs. cabell. as well as i remember, he said "yes." we were in a group, a large group, and there was much conversation. mr. hubert. did you hear any other spontaneous remarks by anyone else? by spontaneous remarks, i mean remarks made then, not later. mrs. cabell. congressman roberts--and i believe this was after the third shot, because we were dead still for a matter of some seconds--then when the motorcade started up, congressman roberts said--these might not be his exact words, but this is what he meant: "if all is well ahead, we are headed for love field. we are getting out." mr. hubert. his previous remark about the caliber of the rifle, which you did not at that time understand, was made after the third shot was fired and before you began to move? mrs. cabell. yes. mr. hubert. was there any other remark made by anyone other than those that you have covered? mrs. cabell. no; except that as the motorcade started up, he said, "if all is well---- mr. hubert. who said? mrs. cabell. congressman roberts said, "if all is well, we are headed for love field. we are getting out." mr. hubert. did the driver say anything, to your knowledge? mrs. cabell. i don't recall that he said a word. mr. hubert. during the time that you were standing absolutely still for a few seconds, did you have occasion, or did you in fact look up at that window again? mrs. cabell. not again, as i recall. mr. hubert. did you go to the hospital too? mrs. cabell. yes. mr. hubert. you were with your husband? mrs. cabell. when we reached the hospital, the presidential car was pulled up toward the slot ordinarily reserved for ambulances, which pulled us up a little closer to the entrance of the hospital. and as my husband jumped out of the car, he turned around and looked at me and said, "stay in the car." and i believe at that time that congressman roberts got out of the car. the texas delegation was standing around the cars at that time. and i sat in the car with our driver for quite some time. mr. hubert. how long, about? mrs. cabell. i cannot tell you. time left me that day. i sat there for quite a long time. i stood up and i saw them taking the president out of the car. i saw my husband by the carriage when the governor was taken out of the car. then our driver, after they went into the hospital, turned the car radio on and we and the other members of the texas delegation, senator yarborough, all of the others--the delegation moved back and forth from the car where i was sitting, up to the door of the hospital. it is my impression that none of them went in. mr. hubert. did you go in? mrs. cabell. yes; twice. do you want me to tell you both times? mr. hubert. yes, ma'am. mrs. cabell. well, this is a little difficult for me to tell. mr. hubert. let me put it this way. what i am interested in is whether or not you saw jack ruby there. did you know him prior to that time? mrs. cabell. no. mr. hubert. of course you have seen his pictures? mrs. cabell. since; but i had never seen him before. mr. hubert. did you see him at any place that you went in the hospital, in front of the hospital, or about the hospital on that day? mrs. cabell. no. mr. hubert. in order to know where you were, to exclude your seeing him there, would you tell us just what places you were? mrs. cabell. in the hospital? mr. hubert. were you out there for some time? mrs. cabell. there came a time when it was necessary for me to find a ladies' room. i walked up to one of the many police officers at the door and i said, officer, i am mrs. earle cabell. he said, "yes, mrs. cabell, i know." i have no idea which officer it was. i said, "it is necessary for me to go into the ladies' room. can you get me in?" he said, "i can try." he had quite a good deal of trouble getting me in and identifying me. they did not let me go in until a nurse's aid was brought to the door. they did not let me stay on the first floor where the emergency section was. they took me to the left. this nurse's aid took me to the left with the police officer following, and we crossed the cafeteria and went over toward the front of the building. the nurse's aid went into the ladies' room with me. the policeman stood at the door. we went back the same way. mr. hubert. tell me who was guarding the front door so that there was some difficulty getting you in. mrs. cabell. i do not know. an elderly man in shirt sleeves, that i remember. i assume he was a part of the hospital personnel. i don't really know that to be true. mr. hubert. were there police or state police or city police? mrs. cabell. they were everywhere. mr. hubert. but you mean they were checking people going into the hospital? mrs. cabell. yes. then as i came in, the policeman escorted me back to our car. i sat there again, i do not know how much longer i sat, but somebody brought me a coca-cola. we, as you know, had nothing to eat or drink since coffee at mr. and mrs. eric jonsson's, where we gathered before going to love field. then a man came up to me. i have to assume that he was a secret service man. he said, "are you mrs. earle cabell?" i said, "yes." he said, "there are no ladies presently with mrs. kennedy. we feel that it might be nice if you go in." so i handed my partially drunk coca-cola to the driver, and i went in with this man. another thing that makes me think he had some authority was that this second time when we got to the door, this man said, "this is mrs. earle cabell," and we walked right in. mr. hubert. he said that to whom? mrs. cabell. the man at the door. mr. hubert. the same man that had been at the door before? mrs. cabell. i assume it was. there was such a short time that elapsed. he took me down. you turn to the right as you went in the door down this very wide hall, and as we were going down the hall, we met my husband coming toward us going out. i looked at him and he said, "i will be back." so we walked on in to this smaller hallway which separated the emergency rooms, either side of them. mrs. kennedy was sitting just outside the door of emergency room no. in a straight chair. i walked up to her---- mr. hubert. she was alone? mrs. cabell. she was alone. there were, i am sure, secret service men. there was a group of men standing behind her, but she was sitting alone. i walked up to her and i said, "mrs. kennedy, i am elizabeth cabell. i wish there was something that i could do to help." and in a very dazed manner she said, "yes, i remember you gave me the roses." and somebody put a chair by her for me and we sat there for just a few moments. and she said, "i would like a cigarette." my purse was on the floor behind my chair. i turned around to pick up my purse to give her a cigarette, and when i turned back around, she was walking into emergency room no. . i judge that it was next to the president, the room the president's body was in, and her purse was on a carriage in that emergency room. she was fumbling in her purse, and i said to her, "i have a cigarette here for you." it was exactly as though she had not heard me. she didn't answer me at all, and she kept fumbling in her purse and finally she came up with a cigarette. then she turned to me as though she had never seen me before, but said, "but i don't have a match." and i said, "i have a match here for you." i lighted her cigarette and she turned around and walked out of that emergency room. we went back to the two chairs outside of emergency room no. and sat down. just at that time i looked up and saw a catholic priest coming toward us. it was not father huber. it was a man i did not recognize. i later understood he was the catholic chaplain of the hospital. i am not sure about that. i got up and walked a few steps to meet him, and i said, "father, take my chair by mrs. kennedy." which he did do. in the meantime, my husband had come back in, and i stepped back where my husband was standing, and we stood there until the casket was wheeled out. mr. hubert. was any announcement made to mrs. kennedy of the death of her husband? mrs. cabell. not while i was in there. i am under the impression--you see, i was still sitting out in the car when they brought vice president, i guess then, and mrs. johnson out and put them in the car and took them away. mr. hubert. did you know of the president's death when you went to mrs. kennedy? mrs. cabell. congressman roberts had come back to the car and said, "he is gone." mr. hubert. it is your impression that mrs. kennedy then knew of the death of her husband when you first came up to her? mrs. cabell. that is my impression. we did not discuss it. mr. hubert. now i understand that there was a telephone call received by you that was of a threatening nature? mrs. cabell. yes. mr. hubert. would you tell us about that, please, ma'am? the time and so forth? mrs. cabell. yes; it was new year's eve. of necessity, the security had asked us not to be out, that so many people had come in for the new year's day game, that they were uneasy. there was the possibility that chief justice warren might come. there was the rumor that he might come. there was the rumor that the president himself might come. we knew that the president's daughters were here, so they asked us not to wander around that night. we have spent new year's night for many years with a very close group of friends, so we invited them to our home that night, but we explained to them that early in the evening and under rather heavy security, we went downtown to the sheraton hotel into a private suite to greet the under secretary of navy and his wife. we stayed in this group possibly or minutes and then we went back to our home. at that time security had been lessened in our home. there were only two men with us at all times then. it had been much heavier earlier. the men had been in our home so long that they were like members of the family almost. they knew most of our guests because they had accompanied us on the christmas parties and festivities that we went to. we were never without them. we did not drive our own cars for months. so most of these guests were known to the security officers that were in our home that night. but i am again hazy on the time. it must have been about o'clock. i walked back into our bedroom for something, and the phone rang back there. i picked it up. this man's voice--it was not a kid, it was not a drunk--said, "mrs. cabell?" i said, yes. he said, "we are coming to kill that god damn mayor now." and hung up the phone. mr. hubert. tell me, do you have a listed number? mrs. cabell. an unlisted number. that is what startled us. mr. hubert. it is an unlisted number? mrs. cabell. yes; it is an unlisted number, and that is what startled us. i walked out of the bedroom through the living room, through the dining room, and into the kitchen and caught the eye of one of the security officers and motioned to him. he followed me back into the bedroom, and i closed the door and told him what had happened. he walked straight to the phone and called his superior officer. mr. hubert. let me ask you, did this seem to be a local call, or long distance? mrs. cabell. i have no way of knowing. when i picked up the phone and said "hello," this man's voice said, "mrs. cabell." mr. hubert. and he said what you have just said, and that is all? mrs. cabell. he hung up before i did. so officer beaty picked up the phone and called his superior. i had said to him, "please ask what to do about our guests." because there had always been the thinking among the security officers, the possibility of a bomb being thrown at the house. mr. hubert. let me ask you, was your unlisted phone number carefully guarded or kept? mrs. cabell. no, no. it was given to our church. it was given to the press. they all had it. they had to talk to earle. it was given to some organizations to which we belonged. the thinking on our part was that we wanted to be available to responsible people. it was merely the crank calls that we were trying to avoid after earle went in office. mr. hubert. so it was rather widely disseminated, and i suppose recorded by those people? mrs. cabell. who it had been given to; that's right. so it was not an impossible number to obtain. it couldn't be in earle's position. mr. storey. (after shortly entering the room). mr. hubert, i might say i had trouble in finding it the one time i wanted to call the mayor. mr. hubert. well, mrs. cabell, i have nothing more to ask you. if you have anything you would like to say concerning the subjects we have covered, or anything else pertinent to the inquiry, we would be glad to hear from you. mrs. cabell. i do not know of anything that would be of any help except that from earle's experience at tupinamba, that somebody knew when those police cars pulled in and out of that driveway. there was always one facing the street. they were not squad cars. they were cars that the special service men drove. they were galaxies, different color, but they all carried the license that people who knew about things like that could recognize them as being a police car. one evening chief curry called and talked to my husband and said things had been so quiet that if you and mrs. cabell feel all right about it, i am going to bring the boys in. and my husband said, "now chief, that has always been up to you. whatever you think, is what we want you to do. within minutes, i would say, after the security officers and the cars had gone, a threatening call came through the police switchboard, so within another minutes the security was back. mr. hubert. do you remember what that was? mrs. cabell. no; i cannot give you the date. mr. hubert. how did you come to know of it? mrs. cabell. i didn't know it until the next morning. the boys didn't come in the house that night. earle didn't know it. we have a very trusted colored man who has been with us years, and when he used his own key to come in the house next morning, i said, "well, phillip, i guess you miss our friends." and he said, "mrs. cabell, they haven't gone. they are outside." and i looked out the kitchen window and there they were. i went out---- mr. hubert. you don't know, do you, whether that threatening call made reference to the fact that the security had been removed? mrs. cabell. no; i do not. but the thinking on the part of the police was that somebody was watching that driveway, because the call came in within minutes after the car had gone. mr. hubert. have you anything else that you wish to say? mrs. cabell. only that, and days again escape me--i think it was the day of the president's funeral, my husband was in washington. this can be verified, because by that time all of our phone calls were recorded. the phone rang early one afternoon, and i picked it up, and this man's voice said, "mrs. cabell." i said "yes." he said, "this is so-and-so--and the name i did not catch, or recall--said "i am with one of the news media. i would like to come out for an interview." or words to that effect. and i said, "well, mr. cabell is not here. you will have to talk to him about that." then he said to me, "how heavily are you being guarded out there? do you still have security?" and i don't know what i said, but i put it off. i passed it off. and by that time i had motioned to the security man that was in the next room, and he picked up the receiver, but the man had hung up by that time. mr. hubert. you mentioned that your calls were being recorded as early as the date of the president's funeral? mrs. cabell. no; earlier. mr. hubert. earlier? mrs. cabell. because the telephone men were out there within an hour after the shooting of oswald. mr. hubert. they set up a recordation system whereby all calls could be recorded? mrs. cabell. yes. mr. hubert. was that still on at the time of new year's eve? mrs. cabell. no. mr. hubert. when was that removed? mrs. cabell. i can't tell you. sometime during that months, but i cannot say when. mr. hubert. but you do not think it was on at the time of the new year's eve call? mrs. cabell. i am sure it wasn't, because the little recording machine, or whatever it was, had been---- mr. hubert. soundscriber? mrs. cabell. had been removed, and i believe i am correct in saying that that was removed at the time, and i can't give you a date, that they cut down to only two officers at a time being with us. for a long time there were two with me and two with earle and two at the house. mr. hubert. mrs. cabell, i don't think there was actually any conversation much before the recordation of your deposition began between us, but in any case, i think you will agree with me that nothing was covered during the unrecorded conversation we had that has not been recorded here? mrs. cabell. as far as i know; that is true. mr. hubert. thank you very much, ma'am. mrs. cabell. thank you. testimony of phillip l. willis the testimony of phillip l. willis was taken at : p.m., on july , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. liebeler. would you raise your right hand [standing]? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. willis. i do. mr. liebeler. please sit down. my name is wesley j. liebeler. i am an attorney on the staff of the president's commission investigating the assassination of president kennedy. i have been authorized to take your testimony by the commission pursuant to authority granted to it by executive order no. , dated november , , and joint resolution of congress no. . under the rules of the commission's procedure, you are entitled to have an attorney present if you wish to have him here. you are entitled to days' notice for the hearing, and you are entitled to exercise whatever privileges there are available to you as far as not answering questions are concerned. i assume that you are prepared to go ahead with your testimony without an attorney present, because you are here without one? mr. willis. absolutely. mr. liebeler. would you state your full name for the record, please? mr. willis. phillip l. willis. mr. liebeler. what is your address, sir? mr. willis. ava lane, dallas , tex. mr. liebeler. when were you born? mr. willis. august , . mr. liebeler. where? mr. willis. kaufman county, tex. mr. liebeler. have you lived in texas throughout most of your life? mr. willis. all my life, with the exception of my military service. mr. liebeler. how long have you lived here in dallas? mr. willis. since april , . mr. liebeler. what business are you engaged in, or by whom are you employed? mr. willis. i am a retired major, air force, disabled world war ii, and i am on disability retirement from the air force. i am an independent real estate broker. mr. liebeler. it is my understanding that you were in the vicinity of the texas school book depository building on november , , at the time of the assassination; is that correct? mr. willis. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. can you tell me where you were and what you saw happen, and what you did at that time? mr. willis. i had a driver drop my family and i in the parkway so that we could have a chance to get a good view of the president's party, having taken my children out of school for the occasion. we were told by the policeman that they were coming down from main street approaching the area on main, and i stood at the corner of main and houston and watched them approach. i am an amateur photographer, a poor one, but we wanted to get some good colored pictures of the president. so i photographed the president coming in front of the courthouse and making the turn onto houston street. mr. liebeler. where did you station yourself at first? were you at the corner, you say? mr. willis. at the corner of houston and main. mr. liebeler. so that you saw him---- mr. willis. across from the county jail on the parkway there near the esplanade. mr. liebeler. so you saw the motorcade coming down main street, did you? mr. willis. yes; we could see it for a block or two. mr. liebeler. then the motorcade turned onto houston and you took some pictures at that time? mr. willis. i remained there until i got the shot of the president approaching the turn onto houston street, and being a personal friend of then vice president lyndon johnson, we were anxious to get him in one, and did. then i took a picture as they turned onto houston street. then another one from the rear after they proceeded down houston approaching the turn they were to make onto elm. then i immediately ran across the plaza, raced over to elm street and stationed myself on the curb in front of the texas school book depository. mr. liebeler. you were there when the motorcade made a left turn on houston and went down elm street; is that correct? mr. willis. yes; and i photographed the president. i was standing in front of the curb, as is shown in life magazine, on the edge of the street, and i photographed the presidential car at not more than feet because i didn't get the front or the rear of the car. i just got the occupants in the center. i was that close. mr. liebeler. now you have indicated that you are depicted in a picture which is in the john f. kennedy memorial edition of life magazine in a picture that you said you were in the upper left-hand corner of page ; is that correct? mr. willis. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. you are the individual who stands almost directly behind the first motorcycle policeman in that picture, and you are shown with a camera? mr. willis. with my camera raised; yes, sir. the little girl in the red dress and white scarf and coat is my daughter. mr. liebeler. the farthest person in the right in the back of that picture? mr. willis. the farthest person in that picture. mr. liebeler. now did you stand at that particular spot the entire time, or did you move down elm street? mr. willis. no, sir; i took that picture just seconds before the first shot was fired, to get back close up. then i started down the street, and the regular weekly edition of life magazine came out and shows me in about three different pictures going down the street. then my next shot was taken at the very--in fact, the shot caused me to squeeze the camera shutter, and i got a picture of the president as he was hit with the first shot. so instantaneous, in fact, that the crowd hadn't had time to react. mr. liebeler. now you have, as i understand it, a series of slides, which apparently have been prepared by something called phil willis enterprises, and which i understand is being marketed, at least in the dallas area? mr. willis. we haven't done anything with them as yet, but i am the only one, i am told, who has a complete set of the prints covering the last seconds of the president's life and the assassination and the tragedy following. i was so shocked i didn't sell any, like everyone did at the moment. and the same people who bought those said they would have been invaluable had i brought them to them, but it didn't dawn on me to do that. and later there has been so many requests because of the historical nature, that we felt compelled to make them available to the public. mr. liebeler. i have here a picture that has been marked hudson exhibit no. , which i now show you and i suggest to you that it is one of the pictures that is a picture made from one of the slides. mr. willis. i made that picture. mr. liebeler. you made that picture yourself? mr. willis. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. that is the same as slide no. ? in your series of slides? mr. willis. that is correct. mr. liebeler. can you tell us when that picture was made? mr. willis. that picture was made at the very instant that the first shot was fired. as a matter of fact, the fellow standing on the ledge under the right-hand corner of the stemmons highway sign is a gentleman who took the last pictures that appeared in life, and his pictures showed that this instant with this sign in between the photographer and the president, shows that at this instant he had already grabbed his throat. this was pointed out to the secret service and the federal bureau of investigation. picture no. will verify that, in life magazine. you see the highway sign that he has the rear of, is the one i have the front of. and as he approached this same sign in this film, he has already grabbed his throat. that is verified by that fact. mr. liebeler. referring to the pictures on page of the memorial edition of life magazine. picture no. shows you standing, as we have already indicated, standing back with your camera? mr. willis. picture shows the president just as the car comes from behind this sign, and it shows that he has already reached for his throat at that time. mr. liebeler. the sign in question is one that reads "stemmons freeway keep right", and the front of that sign appears in the picture that you took which is marked hudson exhibit no. ? mr. willis. the only one in that vicinity. it has to be the same one. you will also note in my first picture, he is facing the outside of the street and smiling and waving, and he had already turned his head the other way when i have the picture in question here from the rear. that same picture from the other side of the street in life shows he has grabbed his throat when they proceeded to that point of the sign in question. mr. liebeler. go through that again. i didn't understand it. let me remind you of this. when you mention a picture, let's try and refer to them by numbers, because if you do that, i won't have to repeat it again, because we have to get the numbers down on the record. you were making a point just a minute ago about something that i didn't understand. you were referring to some of the pictures in life magazine, and also to hudson exhibit no. , which is the picture you took. mr. willis. all right, sir, hudson exhibit no. , which is a copy of the picture i took, shows the president's car had proceeded almost past the "stemmons freeway keep right" sign. referring back to panel no. of the life memorial edition of life magazine on page , it shows that mrs. kennedy has her hand over her mouth, and the president has already grabbed his throat. that picture shows that his car has not passed the stemmons sign completely. mr. liebeler. yes. mr. willis. referring back to hudson exhibit no. , which i took, the president's car in fact has passed the stemmons sign, and he has turned the opposite direction from the previous picture that i took close up, and it proves without question that at this instant the president had been hit. mr. liebeler. now, you mentioned the picture that you took, the other picture that you took close up. is that included in your set of slides here? mr. willis. yes, sir; it is slide no. , which you see doesn't include the front or the rear of the president's car, but the center. that is proving how close it was. mr. liebeler. picture no. in your group of slides was taken shortly before picture no. was taken, is that right? mr. willis. yes, sir; not more than seconds. mr. liebeler. do you know which picture you were taking or you took at the time that is shown here in panel no. of this memorial edition of life magazine? mr. willis. yes, sir; the number just mentioned, slide no. , the closeup of the president directly in front of the texas school book depository. mr. liebeler. now from the time that you took no. , and when you took no. , you were standing as shown in picture no. in life magazine? mr. willis. correct. mr. liebeler. what did you do before you took no. , which we have marked here as hudson exhibit no. ? did you move down the street, or were you standing in the same place, or do you remember? mr. willis. no, sir; as human nature would guide in an instance of this importance, i moved down the street slightly to try to get another view, and, of course, i had the camera looking through the viewfinder to try to get another picture of him before he went out of range. i moved as far as i could within that seconds. mr. liebeler. so you are not able to tell us exactly where you were when you took the picture that we have here as hudson exhibit no. , but it was a little bit farther on down elm street, still on the grassy area described by elm and main street; is that correct? mr. willis. yes, sir; i can verify that where i was going back to life magazine again, because this picture no. on page of the john f. kennedy memorial edition of life, there is a tree in the background. the only tree in that immediate vicinity on that side of the street. and the shadow of that tree is shown in slide no. that i took, which would show my position. mr. liebeler. yes. i see you would have to study just from where the sun was coming, but it could be determined where you were standing, and we could also apparently determine it by lining it up with across the street? mr. willis. off the record. let me say this. you see in no. shot where i am shown, you can see this shadow on the ground from this tree. this little bush--there is the shadow from the tree. this tree is on the ground, so if you look in my picture here, you can see the shadow in that picture. so you see that i did move down approximately this far. mr. liebeler. all right. now, you are certain that the first shot was fired at approximately the time or shortly at approximately the time you took the picture that has been marked hudson exhibit no. ; is that right? mr. willis. i am positive. mr. liebeler. do you remember hearing the shot? mr. willis. absolutely. i, having been in world war ii, and being a deer hunter hobbyist, i would recognize a high-powered rifle immediately. mr. liebeler. did you recognize this as a high-powered rifle? mr. willis. absolutely. mr. liebeler. and you heard it just about the time you took the picture that has been marked? mr. willis. that's right. mr. liebeler. prior to the time you took the picture, which is marked hudson exhibit no. ? mr. willis. absolutely. mr. liebeler. how many shots were fired altogether, mr. willis? mr. willis. three shots. mr. liebeler. do you have any question about that at all? mr. willis. no, sir. mr. liebeler. did you follow the car down elm street after you took the picture, which we have marked hudson exhibit no. ? mr. willis. i proceeded down the street and didn't take any other pictures instantly, because the three shots were fired approximately about seconds apart, and i knew my little daughters were running along beside the presidential car, and i was immediately concerned about them, and i was screaming for them to come back, and they didn't hear me. but i was concerned about them immediately, because i knew something tragic had happened, and the shots didn't ring out long like a rifle shot that is fired into midair in a distance. i knew it hit something, and it couldn't have been a firecracker or anything like that, so it impressed me, i remember, and after i found my daughters, i saw they were heading back toward their mother. mr. liebeler. where was she? mr. willis. she was back in the crowd looking through this concrete structure. how do you refer to that? mr. liebeler. well, your wife was back closer toward the intersection of main street and houston street? mr. willis. no; it is a very short distance when you stand in here. no; that is the one across the street--no; here she was. she was in between main, and elm streets, but real near elm street. in fact, she was only a few feet back from my daughters. she wasn't more than feet from where the president was hit. mr. liebeler. so she was toward the triple underpass from the concrete structure on dealey plaza? mr. willis. she was inside the concrete structure looking through an opening. mr. liebeler. looking toward the triple underpass? mr. willis. toward the texas school book depository where she had a clear view, and there were surprisingly few people there at that time--at that moment--and none in between her and the street to block her vision. mr. liebeler. did you actually observe the president when he was hit in the head? mr. willis. no, sir; i did not. i couldn't see that well, and i was more concerned about the shots coming from that building. the minute the third shot was fired, i screamed, hoping the policeman would hear me, to ring that building because it had to come from there. being directly across the street from the building, made it much more clear to those standing there than the people who were on the side of the street where the building was. mr. liebeler. so you thought you had picked out a particular building at the time when you heard the shots? mr. willis. absolutely. mr. liebeler. what building was that? mr. willis. the texas school book depository building. mr. liebeler. you were pretty sure? mr. willis. i felt certain. i even looked for smoke, and i knew it came from high up. mr. liebeler. how did you know that? mr. willis. i even observed the clock on top of the building, it was : when i looked up there. mr. liebeler. the clock on top of the school book depository? mr. willis. there is a hertz sign on top of the building, and it alternates the time of day and the temperature, and when i looked up, it was : , and the temperature was degrees, as shown in my slide on no. . mr. liebeler. so you did not actually observe the president at the time he was hit in the head? mr. willis. no, sir; i was just taking a picture of him, and the presidential party in the car come through my viewfinder and my camera. but my little daughter ran back and said, "oh, daddy, they have shot our president. his whole head blew up, and it looked like a red halo." mr. liebeler. which one? is this the girl that is here today? mr. willis. the little one was the one that made that remark. my youngest daughter, rosemary. the one that is with me today also saw it, and she went back and told her mother the same thing. and her mother said, "yes; i saw it." mr. liebeler. now, did you see anything hitting in the street along the president's car as it went down elm street? mr. willis. no, sir; i did not. mr. liebeler. you say there were three shots fired? you heard three shots fired? mr. willis. yes. mr. liebeler. did you think that the president had been hit by the first shot? mr. willis. i didn't really know, sir. mr. liebeler. you couldn't tell whether he was hit by the first shot? you couldn't tell whether he had been hit by the first shot or the second shot or the third shot, or by how many shots he had been hit? mr. willis. no, sir; except this one thing might be worthy of mention. when i took slide no. , the president was smiling and waving and looking straight ahead, and mrs. kennedy was likewise smiling and facing more to my side of the street. when the first shot was fired, her head seemed to just snap in that direction, and he more or less faced the other side of the street and leaned forward, which caused me to wonder, although i could not see anything positively. it did cause me to wonder. mr. liebeler. you say that the president looked toward his left; is that correct? toward the side of elm street that you are standing on, or which way? mr. willis. in slide no. he was looking pretty much toward--straight ahead, and she was looking more to the left, which would be my side of the street. then when the first shot was fired, she turned to the right toward him and he more or less slumped forward, and it caused me to wonder if he were hit, although i couldn't say. (discussion off the record.) mr. liebeler. in order to clarify some of the discussion we have had about the various number of slides, i want to mark a set of your slides as willis exhibit no. and i have initialed a set of these, mr. willis, with my own initials, and i will ask you to do the same thing for the purpose of identification so we know what we are talking about when we refer to this exhibit. (mr. willis marks initials.) mr. liebeler. we have already established that the picture that has been marked as hudson's exhibit no. is a print made from the negative or from slide no. on willis' exhibit no. ; is that correct? mr. willis. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. did you have occasion to look up toward the railroad tracks that go across the triple underpass at any time, at about the time the president was shot? mr. willis. yes; i did, after the third shot was fired. mr. liebeler. was there anybody up there? did you see anybody up there on those railroad tracks? mr. willis. yes, sir; i had noticed before the president's arrival that there were spectators up there, but there were also policemen up there. mr. liebeler. you did see policemen up there? mr. willis. yes, sir; there were definitely policemen up there among the spectators. mr. liebeler. about how many spectators would you say were up there? was there a big crowd? mr. willis. no, sir; there was no big crowd in the area, actually. but i would say, and this is strictly a wild guess, maybe dozen. mr. liebeler. did you see any evidence of any shots having been fired from that direction? mr. willis. no, sir; there was no doubt in my mind. i saw people falling on the ground and police officers racing over toward a concrete wall. mr. liebeler. across the street from elm street? mr. willis. across the street from elm street on the same side as the school book depository, which goes down the hill toward the underpass, and the policemen started going over there, called to see if someone, evidently thinking it came from that direction, and then is when i started to ring this building. i knew it came from high above directly across the street from me, and that is the one thing i was absolutely positive about. mr. liebeler. you made that judgment from the sound of the shots? mr. willis. from the sound, absolutely. and this may be verified by the fact that i took several pictures of the crowd immediately around that building. mr. liebeler. yes; i notice. mr. willis. i had no doubt about that, because i was that certain in my own mind. mr. liebeler. i don't think i have any other questions about these pictures, unless you can think of something else that you think i should have asked you about, that i have forgotten about. mr. willis. in slide no. , people were still on the ground and i took that picture, knowing that the party had come to a temporary halt before proceeding on to the underpass, and i have an arrow there which shows the back of the secret service agent climbing onto the back of the presidential car. mr. liebeler. that is that far in the background, way in the back of the picture, or down toward the underpass of the street? mr. willis. yes; that would be the background. mr. liebeler. i think i would like to ask your daughter about three or four questions about what she saw of it. we might just bring her in while you are still here. testimony of linda kay willis the testimony of linda kay willis was taken at : p.m., on july , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. liebeler. would you rise and raise your right hand and i will swear you as a witness. do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? miss willis. i do. mr. liebeler. as i told your father, i am an attorney for the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy, and he has told me that you were with him in the vicinity of the school book depository building at the time of the assassination, and i wanted to ask you two or three questions about that. first of all, would you state your name for the reporter, please? miss willis. linda kay willis. mr. liebeler. how old are you? miss willis. i will be , july . mr. liebeler. your father has told us that you were out in front of the school book depository building along with your sister on the day of the assassination, and your mother and father were also there, is that correct? miss willis. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. did you hear any shots, or what you later learned to be shots, as the motorcade came past you there? miss willis. yes; i heard one. then there was a little bit of time, and then there were two real fast bullets together. when the first one hit, well, the president turned from waving to the people, and he grabbed his throat, and he kind of slumped forward, and then i couldn't tell where the second shot went. mr. liebeler. now, you were standing right along the curb on elm street, is that right, when the motorcade came by across the street from the school book depository building? miss willis. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. did you follow the motorcade down elm street at all, or did you stand on the corner up toward houston street and watch from there? miss willis. i was right across from the sign that points to where stemmons expressway is. i was directly across when the first shot hit him. mr. liebeler. directly across from the sign that says, "stemmons freeway"? miss willis. i was right in line with the sign and the car, and i wasn't very far away from him, but i couldn't tell from where the shot came. mr. liebeler. did you just stay right there, or did you go on down elm street? miss willis. i stayed there. i was on the corner across from the courthouse when the motorcade first came down main street, and when it turned the corner on houston, well, i followed along the street with the car, and then he turned the corner on elm and i stood there where the stemmons sign is. mr. liebeler. did you see the president get hit in the head? miss willis. yes. mr. liebeler. you actually saw the president get hit that way? miss willis. yes. mr. liebeler. how far away would you say that you were when you saw that? miss willis. oh, about twice as far as i am from here to this door. maybe not quite that far. mr. liebeler. about feet or so? miss willis. about that. mr. liebeler. now when you saw the president get hit in the head, did you hear any more shots after that? miss willis. yes; the first one, i heard the first shot come and then he slumped forward, and then i couldn't tell where the second shot went, and then the third one, and that was the last one that hit him in the head. mr. liebeler. you only heard three shots altogether? miss willis. yes; that was it. mr. liebeler. so you don't think there were any more shots after he got hit in the head? miss willis. no. mr. liebeler. did you recognize the noises that you heard as shots right away? miss willis. no; when the first shot rang out, i thought, well, it's probably fireworks, because everybody is glad the president is in town. then i realized it was too loud and too close to be fireworks, and then when i saw, when i realized that the president was falling over, i knew he had been hit. but i didn't know how badly. mr. liebeler. okay, i just wanted to ask you about whether you heard any shots after the president got hit in the head, and if you didn't hear any more shots, that is really all i wanted to ask you about. thank you very much. miss willis. all right. testimony of helen markham the testimony of helen markham was taken at a.m., on july , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. liebeler. will you stand and take the oath, please? do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mrs. markham. i do. mr. liebeler. my name is wesley j. liebeler [spelling] l-i-e-b-e-l-e-r. i am an attorney on the staff of the president's commission investigating the assassination of president kennedy. i have been authorized to take your testimony for the commission pursuant to authority granted it by the president in executive order no. , dated november , , and joint resolution of congress no. . i think you are somewhat familiar with the proceedings of the commission because you have already testified before the commission in washington; is that right? mrs. markham. yes; but you know, i don't know nothing about the kennedys--president kennedy. mr. liebeler. i understand you were there when oswald shot officer tippit? mrs. markham. yes; that's right. mr. liebeler. since you are familiar with the commission's procedure, i'll just go right into your testimony. i wanted to ask you some questions about some of the things you told the commission when you appeared before it on march , , when mr. ball took your testimony before the commission. mrs. markham. yes. mr. liebeler. do you remember at that time that mr. ball asked you the question, "did you ever talk to a new york lawyer who said he was from new york?" and that you answered, "no, sir." mr. ball then asked you, "did you ever talk to a lawyer who was investigating the case on behalf of the deceased man, lee oswald?" your answer was, "no, sir." mr. ball asked, "did you ever talk to a man who said he was representing the mother of lee oswald?" and you answered, "no, sir." and then mr. ball asked you, "you don't remember ever talking to a man named mark lane?" and then you answered, no, sir." mrs. markham. right. mr. liebeler. do you remember giving that testimony at that time? mrs. markham. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. have you ever talked to mark lane? mrs. markham. no; i haven't--i haven't never seen the man in my life. mr. liebeler. have you ever talk to mark lane on the telephone? mrs. markham. no. mr. liebeler. and you remember that congressman ford specifically, and mr. dulles, asked you whether or not you had talked to mark lane on the telephone and you told them at that time that you had not talked to mark lane? mrs. markham. no, sir; i have never seen the man. if he was to come in here, i wouldn't know who he was. mr. liebeler. now, aside from the fact you have never seen the man, you also told the commission when you were in washington that you had never talked to him over the telephone? mrs. markham. right. mr. liebeler. have you talked to mark lane over the telephone since you were in washington, before today? mrs. markham. no, sir. mr. liebeler. you have never talked to mark lane over the telephone? mrs. markham. no, sir; no, sir. now, the old lady, and they told me they were reporters, came to my house. mr. liebeler. right, but you have no recollection of ever talking to him yourself? mrs. markham. i never even talked to her even. mr. liebeler. well, now, i'll tell you very frankly, that we have a tape recording of a conversation that purports to be a conversation between you and mark lane on the telephone and i have a transcript which we will mark as markham exhibit no. ---- mrs. markham. let me tell you now---- mr. liebeler. i ask you to read the transcript and i will make arrangements--i hadn't thought you would be here until o'clock this afternoon, so i don't have a tape recorder here, but i think i can have the secret service bring one over. would you like to hear the tape, so you can tell us whether or not that is your voice? mrs. markham. yes; sure. mr. liebeler. let me make arrangements then to have the secret service bring the tape recorder on over and we will see if it is your voice. mrs. markham. i am going to tell you this, now, there was someone--let me tell you this--there was someone one day--this was all to me--i was scared, and i was, you know, frightened, and one day--now, this brings me back--the memories [referring to the transcript heretofore mentioned]. one day on my job there was someone that called, but he told me he was from the city. mr. liebeler. from here in dallas? mrs. markham. that's right; the city hall down here, and this man told me he was--now, i can tell you what he told me he was--he said he was captain fritz--over this telephone--capt. will fritz and i know you are familiar with him, maybe. now, he said he was captain fritz with the police department of the city of dallas. mr. liebeler. well, this transcript indicates that someone called a number, a telephone number--do you remember the telephone number at your office where you worked; were you working? mrs. markham. yes; i was working down here on main street. mr. liebeler. do you know what the telephone down there is? mrs. markham. no; i have really forgotten it, but it was over this office phone. it's a riverside number. mr. liebeler. is there such a number as matthew - ? mrs. markham. no, sir. mr. liebeler. or is there such a number as ma - , is there such a number as that that you know of? mrs. markham. no, sir. mr. liebeler. this transcript here indicates that some gentleman called this number here, matthew - . mrs. markham. my number at home is whitehall and this number that i worked at was riverside . mr. liebeler. well, i think what we should do is have the secret service bring a tape recorder here, because i want you to listen to this conversation, and if it is not your voice, we certainly want to know that. mrs. markham. sure, and this man--what this man told me--he told me he was from the dallas police department and he said it was concerning the oswalds and they had to get a little more information from me. mr. liebeler. well, let me call the secret service. mrs. markham. and listen, that was the only call that i know of. you see, i kept racking my brain thinking back, you know. mr. liebeler. why don't we suspend momentarily and as soon as the secret service man brings the tape recorder over here, which should be within a short time, a half an hour, we will play the tape. mrs. markham. all right. (at this point the proceedings were recessed and resumed at : a.m., as follows:) mr. liebeler. this is mr. john joe howlett with the secret service and he has brought over the tape recorder and has put the tape on it and we will continue with your deposition, mrs. markham. mr. howlett, with the u.s. secret service, will operate the tape recorder and i will ask you, mrs. markham, to listen to this conversation and tell us whether or not this is an accurate reflection of a conversation that you had over the telephone some time ago? the court reporter. how much of this tape recording do you want on the record here? mr. liebeler. i don't want any of this on the record now; however, i will give you, mrs. markham, a transcript of this telephone conversation to review and follow along, if you will. this memorandum consists of pages appearing on the letterhead of the federal bureau of investigation, dated july , , and i want you to see if that is not in fact a transcript, a typed copy of what is on this tape. mrs. markham. yes; i'll watch this. (at this point mr. howlett proceeded to play the tape recording of the telephone conversation heretofore referred to and when the witness, mrs. markham, began to indicate reactions to the recorded conversation, the reporter resumed recording same as hereinafter shown and the record here begins with the question and answer at the time mrs. markham began indicating her reactions.) "mr. lane. i wonder if you would be good enough to tell me--i have your affidavit which you gave the police on that date. "mrs. markham. yes, sir. "mr. lane. and i have read that, of course, and i wonder if you would be good enough to talk to me?" mr. liebeler. you are shaking your head, as you listen to this tape recorder, mrs. markham. john joe, let's stop the recorder for a moment. what do you mean to indicate by that? mrs. markham. i never talked to that man. mr. liebeler. is that not your voice on the tape? mrs. markham. i can't tell about my voice, but that man--i never talked to no woman or no man like that. mr. liebeler. well, we will play the recording some more, and are you following it along, mrs. markham? mrs. markham. yes; i am right here. mr. liebeler. and does this memorandum appear to be an accurate and exact transcript of the recording? mrs. markham. that man--whoever that man is--i don't know, but it says, mark lane. no, sir--i'll tell the truth (raising right hand) and those words that he's saying--that's nothing like the telephone call i got--nothing. mr. liebeler. let's continue with the recording and see if you recognize your voice here on the tape. "mr. lane. tell me the description of the man whom you saw. "mrs. markham. this is an office business phone and i just can't tell you that." i don't have the time to. "mr. lane. well, could you just give me one moment and tell me--i read where you told some of the reporters that he was short and stocky and had bushy hair. "mrs. markham. no, no; i did not say that. "mr. lane. you did not say that? "mrs. markham. no, sir. "mr. lane. would you say that he was stocky? "mrs. markham. he was short. "mr. lane. he was short? "mrs. markham. yes. "mr. lane. and was he a little on the heavy side? "mrs. markham. not too heavy. "mr. lane. not too heavy, but slightly heavy? "mrs. markham. well, he was--no--he didn't look too heavy. "mr. lane. he wasn't too heavy and would you say that he had a rather bushy kind of hair?" mrs. markham. yes; that's my voice. "mrs. markham. yes; just a little bit bushy. "mr. lane. it was a little bit bushy? "mrs. markham. yes. "mr. lane. yes. was there anybody else around when you saw this happen? "mrs. markham. no, sir; i didn't see anyone. "mr. lane. there was no one else there. did you ever have a chance to see mr. oswald when he was alive, i mean after he was arrested, did they bring you down to look at him? "mrs. markham. i saw him on the lineup. "mr. lane. yes. did he look anything like the man who shot oswald? "mrs. markham. i identified him. "mr. lane. you identified him as the man who did shoot him. did anyone point him out to you at that time as the man? "mrs. markham. in the lineup? "mr. lane. yes. "mrs. markham. no; they did not. "mr. lane. did they tell you who it might be? "mrs. markham. they didn't tell me one thing. "mr. lane. no. do you recall what the gentleman was wearing who shot officer tippit? "mrs. markham. yes, sir. "mr. lane. how was he dressed? "mrs. markham. he had on a light gray looking jacket. "mr. lane. yes. "mrs. markham. kind of dark trousers. "mr. lane. dark trousers? "mrs. markham. uh-huh. "mr. lane. and did you see what color shirt? "mrs. markham. no; i could not. "mr. lane. the jacket was open or closed? "mrs. markham. yes, sir; it was zipped up a little bit--the neck was closed--pretty close too. "mr. lane. well, as i said, i have read your affidavit and it indicates the police car stopped and then this man walked over to it and leaned on it and placed his arms up against the car. "mrs. markham. up in the window. "mr. lane. in the window? "mrs. markham. yes. "mr. lane. you didn't see the police officer call him over, did you? "mrs. markham. yes; i seen the police car stop--i seen it all. "mr. lane. i beg your pardon? "mrs. markham. yes, sir; i seen the police car stop. "mr. lane. you heard the police car stop? "mrs. markham. i seen it. "mr. lane. you saw it stop and then oswald or this gentleman, whoever it was, walked over to the car? "mrs. markham. yes, sir; he walked over to the car. "mr. lane. you didn't see the officer call him over, though, did you? "mrs. markham. he rolled down the window. "mr. lane. he did what? "mrs. markham. he rolled down his window. "mr. lane. the officer rolled down the window? "mrs. markham. yes; uh-huh. "mr. lane. of course, you didn't put that in your affidavit. "mrs. markham. sir? "mr. lane. that was not in your affidavit. "mrs. markham. it should have been. "mr. lane. it should have been--you told that to the officers? "mrs. markham. yes, sir; he had to have the window rolled down, because, you see, he leaned over in the window. "mr. lane. i see. now, did you tell the officers at the police station when they questioned you, the description of the man who shot tippit? "mrs. markham. i told them that at the scene of the murder. "mr. lane. you told the officers the description? "mrs. markham. yes, sir. "mr. lane. did you say that he was short and a little bit on the heavy side and had slightly bushy hair? "mrs. markham. no; i did not. they didn't ask me that. "mr. lane. they never asked you his description? "mrs. markham. yes; they asked what he was wearing. "mr. lane. just what he was wearing? "mrs. markham. yes, sir. "mr. lane. but they never asked you how he was built or anything like that? "mrs. markham. no, sir. "mr. lane. well, you went to the police station where they took your affidavit, right? "mrs. markham. yes." mr. liebeler. now, you are shaking your head at this point. miss reporter, you are taking the transcript down. the reporter. yes. mr. liebeler. now, at this point you were shaking your head, what do you mean by that? mrs. markham. this man--i have never talked with. this lady was never on the telephone. this man that called me like i told you, he told me he was from the city hall, the police department, the police department of the city hall. mr. liebeler. well, now, do you remember having this conversation with somebody? mrs. markham. yes; i do, but he told me he was from the police department of city hall and he had to get some information, a little more information from me. that was my boss that told me--the one that said, "wait a minute," that was my boss, mr. sam gambolus. mr. liebeler. and you received this call at the place where you work? mrs. markham. yes. mr. liebeler. do you remember specifically that when the telephone calls started, that this man told you he was from the city hall of the police department? mrs. markham. yes, sir; yes, sir; right. because--you see--i had got a call from a man, but it was--i found out later, because the lady had called me back, it was from mr. tippit's sister, and i had told them that i couldn't talk, you know, i was busy on my job and this man told me that he was from the police department of the city hall and he had to get a little more information and it wouldn't take much of my time, and so i got permission from this boss, mr. gambolus, to talk with this man. now, he told me that. mr. liebeler. now, did he tell you he was from the police department? mrs. markham. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. now, on this tape recording right here, this man is asking you what the police did. mrs. markham. i know it. mr. liebeler. and he said they--the police took you and took your affidavit. mrs. markham. that man--i have never talked to that man. i talked to a man that was supposed to have been from the police department of the city hall. mr. liebeler. do you recognize this as the voice of the man you talked to? mrs. markham. no; it is not. mr. liebeler. this is not the same voice? mrs. markham. no. mr. liebeler. how do you explain the fact that the woman's voice on this tape recording is your voice? mrs. markham. i never heard that. mr. liebeler. you never heard the man's voice before? mrs. markham. and i never heard this lady's voice before--this is the first time. mr. liebeler. do you have any doubt in your mind at all that the lady's voice on the tape now is your voice? mrs. markham. it is my voice, but this man told me he was from the city police. mr. liebeler. did it occur to you as you were talking to him--when he said, for example, on the tape here just a few minutes ago, did you tell the officers--you told this person you were talking to on this tape that you saw the police car stop and that this man walked over to the car and that the officer had rolled the window down and this man's voice said you did not put in the affidavit that you had seen the officer roll the window down. mrs. markham. man, i have never heard such a thing as this. mr. liebeler. at the bottom of page he says, "i see. now, did you tell the officers at the police station, when they questioned you, the description of the man who shot tippit?" you couldn't have thought he was from the police department if he was asking you what you were telling the police before--do you agree with me? mrs. markham. yes; but he told me he was from the police department and he had to get some information from me and i wanted to get back to my work. mr. liebeler. so, it is your testimony that even though you engaged in this conversation here, the man--when he started out, he told you that he was from the police department; is that right? mrs. markham. yes, sir; i wouldn't have never talked to this man. just like if i get a telephone call i say, "you know where i am at, come down to see me." he told me he was from the police department and this lady never talked to me. mr. liebeler. which lady is that? mrs. markham. on this tape. mr. liebeler. which lady on the tape? mrs. markham. it was a woman talking. mr. liebeler. the lady's voice that was talking on the tape here? mrs. markham. yes. mr. liebeler. i thought that was your voice? mrs. markham. not at the first there. mr. liebeler. not at the first--you mean the telephone operator, the one that was the telephone operator? the tape here indicates that the long-distance telephone operator or some telephone operator called you to the telephone and a man answered the telephone. mrs. markham. no; my boss called me to the telephone. mr. liebeler. so, when you came to the telephone it was this man on the telephone and he told you that he was from the police department? mrs. markham. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. and then you engaged in this telephone conversation? mrs. markham. yes; he certainly did. mr. liebeler. so that, in fact, your testimony is that you had never had anybody introduce themselves to you as mark lane? mrs. markham. no, sir. mr. liebeler. and you haven't talked to him over the telephone? mrs. markham. no, sir; and so help me [raising right hand] i did not. mr. liebeler. you don't have any doubt, however, that you did engage in this particular conversation, except that you are having trouble at the beginning and end of it because you said that the man told you that he was from the police department when he called? mrs. markham. yes, sir; he certainly did. i know he did. mr. liebeler. did you ever tell anybody that this man who shot officer tippit was short and stocky and had bushy hair? mrs. markham. no. [handed instruments to mr. liebeler.] mr. liebeler. you have brought a couple of pieces of paper here that you want me to look at? mrs. markham. please--this here doesn't make sense and let me show you--i don't know what to think about it, but i got this, but my daughter wouldn't let me have it because i was very upset at the time and i don't know what it even means. mr. liebeler. let the record show that the witness has handed me a piece of paper, a single sheet of paper enclosed in an envelope of the statler-hilton hotel in dallas and postmarked dallas, tex., july , , and addressed to mrs. helen markham at east ninth street in dallas, and the letter has a return address of p.o. box , dallas , tex. it is dated july , , and it is addressed to mrs. markham and it says, "at your convenience, would you kindly call me saturday or any weekday morning between a.m. and noon. i would like the opportunity of discussing a matter which i believe will be mutually profitable. sincerely, james kerr." we will mark the envelope and the letter as markham deposition exhibit no. . i have marked the letter as indicated and i have put my initials on it and would you put your initials on it, mrs. markham, so we don't have any trouble identifying it in the future. mrs. markham. just my initials? mr. liebeler. yes; just your initials. (mrs. markham initials instrument referred to.) mr. liebeler. now, did you ever call this mr. kerr? mrs. markham. now, where at--there wasn't no telephone or nothing. it gives a post office box is all i saw. mr. liebeler. you never looked the telephone number up in the book or anything like that? mrs. markham. no; i didn't. there are so many kerrs--you never know who it is. mr. liebeler. now, the envelope has the telephone listing on it--ri - ; did you notice that? mrs. markham. well, i called that number off of that. mr. liebeler. do you remember whose number that is? mrs. markham. no; i believe it was either the police department--i don't know, but i called. mr. liebeler. you also have a telegram you want me to look at? mrs. markham. yes; i do. mr. liebeler. you never did talk to this mr. kerr; is that right? mrs. markham. no, sir; that's all i've gotten. i want you to see what you think about that. mr. liebeler. the witness has produced a telegram dated july , apparently , and addressed to her, which reads as follows: "dear mrs. markham: "the united states information agency is preparing a televised report on the findings of the warren commission. "to aid us in our objectives, we have requested the on-camera presence of president johnson, the commission members and selected witnesses who have given testimony here in washington. we would like to request your cooperation in appearing on our program. in our opinion, your presence and perhaps a statement of your feeling and of your feelings in truthful note and fashion will serve to alleviate the tension and misgivings following the death of officer tippit and, of course, the other dallas tragedies. i would be most anxious to have your reaction and will contact you personally concerning our request. "i look forward to talking with you. "sincerely, buck richard pennington, producer, television service u.s. information agency, washington , d.c., phone worth - ." when did you receive this? mrs. markham. well---- mr. howlett. just a moment, i talked to mrs. markham about this--she called me on the telephone about that. the u.s. information agency is a legitimate government organization and they are planning to do this. they have contacted us to assist them in the location of some witnesses and we checked with our office in washington and they came back and told us it was a legitimate venture, but we were, the secret service, was engaged with the commission and that we wouldn't be able to help, but it is supposed to be a legitimate operation. mr. liebeler. so, you have discussed this with agent howlett, is that right, as he indicated? mrs. markham. now, this man--buck pennington? mr. liebeler. yes. mrs. markham. he called me right after i got this telegram and whatever you think--he wanted me to come up there monday or tuesday. do you think it would be all right? mr. liebeler. well, neither one of us is in a position to give you any advice on that at all, mrs. markham. mrs. markham. well, who do i go to? i don't want to do something wrong. i've done talked to somebody, i didn't know who i was talking to. mr. liebeler. i suggest you write a little note to mr. rankin, general counsel of the commission's staff in washington and ask him what he thinks you should do. mrs. markham. would you write that address down? mr. liebeler. would you give her that address, joe? afterward. mr. howlett. that's mr. rankin's address in washington? mr. liebeler. yes. mrs. markham. i don't know if it would be all right to go up there and do that or not. mr. liebeler. well, why don't you write to mr. rankin and he will handle that aspect of it. now, i want to mark this transcript, mrs. markham, and we have listened to the tape--not all the way through, but part of the way through, to about page , and you followed it through to that extent, have you not? mrs. markham. yes. mr. liebeler. and you are satisfied that to the extent we have listened to the tape, that it is accurately set forth in this memorandum? mrs. markham. yes. mr. liebeler. is that correct? mrs. markham. yes; but that man is wrong. why would anybody want to do anything like that? mr. liebeler. would you put your initials on that memorandum, please? mrs. markham. yes; may i use a pencil? mr. liebeler. yes. mrs. markham. i just wrote markham down there. mr. liebeler. all right. thank you very much, mrs. markham. i don't have any other questions at this time. mrs. markham. well, that just worries me. mr. liebeler. well, we will have to do further investigation into this. mrs. markham. because he told me he was from the police department. it never dawned on me. you know, i was in a hurry to get back because i was going to get fired if i didn't get back. mr. liebeler. thank you very much, mrs. markham. mrs. markham. well, will i get in any trouble over this? mr. liebeler. i don't think so, mrs. markham. i wouldn't worry about it. i don't think anybody is going to cause you any trouble over that [referring to the telegram]. mrs. markham. that was dirty in that man doing that. mr. liebeler. pardon? mrs. markham. that was dirty in that man doing that. mr. liebeler. well, i would think that's right. mrs. markham. well, he's not no better than oswald--that's right. mr. liebeler. thank you, mrs. markham, very much. testimony of mrs. donald baker the testimony of mrs. donald baker was taken at : a.m., on july , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. liebeler. before you sit down, will you raise your right hand and please take the oath? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mrs. baker. i do. mr. liebeler. mrs. baker, my name is wesley j. liebeler. i am an attorney on the staff of the president's commission investigating the assassination of president kennedy. i have been authorized to take your testimony by the commission, pursuant to authority granted to it by executive order , dated november , , and the joint resolution of congress no. . under the rules of the commission, you are entitled to have an attorney present and you are entitled to days' notice of the hearing. you don't have to answer any questions that you think would violate any of your constitutional rights. i presume from the nature of the testimony that we are going to ask you about that you don't want your attorney present and that you are willing to proceed with the testimony at this point; is that correct? mrs. baker. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. would you state your full name for the record, please? mrs. baker. mrs. donald baker. mr. liebeler. have you been married since the d of november ? mrs. baker. february , . mr. liebeler. you were married on february , ? mrs. baker. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. are you virgie rachley or is that somebody else? mrs. baker. that's me. mr. liebeler. how come i have your name as virgie rachley and also mrs. donald s. baker? mrs. baker. i don't know. mr. liebeler. well, i have a report from the fbi that is dated november , , and they refer to you as virgie rachley in that report, but you had already been married at that time; is that correct? mrs. baker. i married this year. mr. liebeler. oh, february of ? mrs. baker. this is --i'm sorry. mr. liebeler. that's right. now, we've got it. you were virgie rachley on november , , and you were married in february . mrs. baker. yes; that's right. mr. liebeler. i understand that you were employed at the time of the assassination as a bookkeeper at the texas school book depository; is that correct? mrs. baker. yes. mr. liebeler. how long had you worked there? mrs. baker. well, i have been there since july , . mr. liebeler. last year? mrs. baker. yes. mr. liebeler. did you ever meet lee harvey oswald or have occasion to see him while you were employed at the texas school book depository? mrs. baker. i had seen him. mr. liebeler. you had seen him? mrs. baker. yes. mr. liebeler. had you ever said anything to him or talked to him at all? mrs. baker. no, sir. mr. liebeler. did you form any impression of him just from seeing him around the building? mrs. baker. just that he was awful quiet. mr. liebeler. other than that, did you form any impression of him at all? mrs. baker. no, sir. mr. liebeler. tell me what happened on the d of november in connection with the motorcade, would you please, what you saw and what you did? mrs. baker. well, we came out of the building across the street at approximately or : and we stood out in front, directly in front of the depository building and as the motorcade came by the president waved and he got down---- mr. liebeler. where were you standing at this point, at the time the motorcade came along? mrs. baker. well, there is a divisional line--i don't know exactly what you would call it--the little part of the street that runs in front of the depository and then there is--i don't know what you would call it--the grassy stuff that comes out to form the plaza along the front. mr. liebeler. you say there is a little street that runs immediately in front of the school book depository building; is that right? mrs. baker. yes. mr. liebeler. do you know if that street has a name or not? mrs. baker. i'm sure it doesn't--i have never seen one. mr. liebeler. and then after that little street that runs right in front of the depository building, there is a little strip of grass with some trees on it; is that correct? mrs. baker. yes. mr. liebeler. and then comes elm street; is that right? mrs. baker. yes. mr. liebeler. and on the other side of elm street there is a sort of a triangular plot of grass. mrs. baker. i guess you could say we were standing just at the edge of elm street at the side of the depository because we were out almost in the street--elm street. mr. liebeler. elm street is separated from another street that runs down through the triple underpass. do you know the name of that street that runs right down here--i am showing you commission exhibit no. , an aerial view of the street that runs by and three streets converge and go under the railroad tracks and that's the triple underpass. mrs. baker. i think that goes out to stemmons expressway or leads into stemmons expressway. mr. liebeler. the street that runs right down through here, the middle, is that main street? mrs. baker. that would be main street and this one would be commerce. mr. liebeler. now, can you point to me approximately where you were standing? mrs. baker. let me find the building here--it would be right here--we were standing right at the edge, approximately directly in front of the building or at the edge of the building; we were standing right here. mr. liebeler. so, you were standing directly in front of the texas school book depository building and on the same side of elm street that the texas school book depository is located? mrs. baker. yes. mr. liebeler. tell me what you saw? mrs. baker. well, after he passed us, then we heard a noise and i thought it was firecrackers, because i saw a shot or something hit the pavement. mr. liebeler. and you heard that immediately after the first noise; is that right? mrs. baker. yes. mr. liebeler. could you tell or did you have any idea where the noise came from when you first heard it? mrs. baker. no; i thought there were some boys standing down there where he was--where the president's car was. mr. liebeler. down farther on the street, you mean? mrs. baker. yes; close to the underpass. mr. liebeler. had the president's car already passed you at the time you heard the first noise? mrs. baker. yes. mr. liebeler. can you tell me approximately how far down the street it had gone when you heard the first shot? mrs. baker. i don't know exactly--i could still see the back of the car--i can't judge distance so i really couldn't tell you. mr. liebeler. it hadn't gone out of sight in your opinion? mrs. baker. no, sir. mr. liebeler. could you still see the president? mrs. baker. not too well. mr. liebeler. there is a gradual curve on elm street and the car had already started slightly into the curve by the time it had gone by you? mrs. baker. yes. mr. liebeler. you say you saw something hit the street after you heard the first shot; is that right? mrs. baker. yes. mr. liebeler. where did you see it hit the street? mrs. baker. have you got that--can you see the signs on that picture there? mr. liebeler. well, you can't see the signs too well on that picture, which is commission exhibit no. , but i will show you some other pictures here on which the signs do appear. first of all, let me show you hudson exhibit no. on which appears a sign that says, "stemmons freeway, keep right." mrs. baker. yes. mr. liebeler. could you see that sign? mrs. baker. no. mr. liebeler. the stemmons freeway sign from where you were standing? mrs. baker. no; i couldn't see the sign because i was angled--we were stepping out in the street then and it was approximately along in here, i presume, the first sign--i don't know which one it is, but i saw the bullet hit on down this way, i guess, right at the sign, angling out. mr. liebeler. you think the bullet hit the street, only it was farther out in the street? mrs. baker. yes. mr. liebeler. even though you couldn't see the sign, you could see this thing hit the street near the sign? mrs. baker. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. it appears to me from looking at commission exhibit no. , that you can in fact make out where the signs are located along the side of the road and let's see if these do look like the signs. now, as you come down elm street past the place you were standing going toward the triple underpass, there is a tree here on this little grassy triangular spot that is on the side of elm street toward the texas school book depository building, right on dealey plaza here by this concrete structure. then, after the tree, going on down toward the triple underpass, it appears in the aerial photograph--a spot that looks like a sign or a shadow--it looks like a sign to me. mrs. baker. there is a sign there. mr. liebeler. and then there's another sign farther on down there. mrs. baker. this was a big sign here and there was a small one here. mr. liebeler. and you think that it was approximately near the first sign? mrs. baker. as i can remember, it was. mr. liebeler. as you went down elm street that you saw this thing hit the street--what did it look like when you saw it? mrs. baker. well, as i said, i thought it was a firecracker. it looked just like you could see the sparks from it and i just thought it was a firecracker and i was thinking that there was somebody was fixing to get in a lot of trouble and we thought the kids or whoever threw it were down below or standing near the underpass or back up here by the sign. mr. liebeler. would they have been as far down as the underpass or somewhere near the sign to have thrown a firecracker in the street? mrs. baker. it was near the signs. mr. liebeler. how close to the curb on elm street was this thing you saw hit; do you remember? it would have been on the curb side--near the curb side away from the texas school book depository building on the opposite side of the street; is that right? mrs. baker. yes. mr. liebeler. how close to the opposite curb do you think it was? mrs. baker. it was approximately in the middle of the lane--i couldn't be quite sure, but i thought it was in the middle or somewhere along in there. i could even be wrong about that but i could have sworn it that day. mr. liebeler. you thought it was sort of toward the middle of the lane? mrs. baker. toward the middle of the lane. mr. liebeler. of the left-hand lane going toward the underpass; is that correct? mrs. baker. yes. mr. liebeler. where was the thing that you saw hit the street in relation to the president's car? i mean, was it in front of the car, behind his car, by the side of his car or was it close to the car? mrs. baker. i thought it was--well--behind it. mr. liebeler. had the car already gone by when you saw this thing hit in the street? mrs. baker. yes. mr. liebeler. do you remember whether it hit toward the left-hand side or the right-hand side of the president's car, or was it just immediately behind it? if you can't remember it that closely, all right. mrs. baker. i can't remember it. mr. liebeler. did you actually see the president get hit by any bullets? mrs. baker. no, sir. mr. liebeler. how many shots did you hear? mrs. baker. three. mr. liebeler. when did you first become aware that they were shots? mrs. baker. with the second shot. mr. liebeler. did you have any idea where they were coming from? mrs. baker. well, the way it sounded--it sounded like it was coming from--there was a railroad track that runs behind the building--there directly behind the building and around, so i guess it would be by the underpass, the triple underpass, and there is a railroad track that runs back out there and there was a train that looked like a circus train as well as i can remember now, back there, and we all ran to the plaza--the little thing there i guess you call it a plaza--back behind there--this other girl and i almost ran back over there and looked and we didn't see anything. mr. liebeler. when you say the plaza, you mean dealey plaza, the area that lies between elm street and this little street that runs by the texas school book depository building; is that correct? is that what you mean? mrs. baker. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. after you heard the shots, you ran down the little street that runs in front of the school book depository? mrs. baker. along the grass. mr. liebeler. along the grass--alongside there, running toward the triple underpass where elm street goes, but you were actually running down the little street or alongside the street on the grass, alongside the street that runs right in front of the texas school book depository? mrs. baker. yes. mr. liebeler. and you say there are some railroad tracks back in there; is that right? mrs. baker. yes. mr. liebeler. immediately behind dealey plaza away from elm street? mrs. baker. yes. mr. liebeler. and is that where you thought the shots came from? mrs. baker. yes. mr. liebeler. and when you went down there and looked, did you see anybody at all? mrs. baker. just a policeman and several people were down there around the tracks working. mr. liebeler. but you didn't see anybody you thought might have been the assassin? mrs. baker. no, sir. mr. liebeler. now, you have subsequently heard, i'm sure, and from reading in the newspapers and one thing and another, that it appears that the shots actually came from the texas school book depository building; is that right? mrs. baker. yes. mr. liebeler. does that seem possible to you in view of what you heard at the time? mrs. baker. well, i guess it might have been the wind, but to me it didn't. mr. liebeler. the sounds you heard at the time did not appear to come from the texas school book depository building? mrs. baker. no, sir. mr. liebeler. did you look up at the texas school book depository building at all while you were standing there? mrs. baker. no, sir. mr. liebeler. so, you had no occasion to see anybody in any of the windows in that building? mrs. baker. no, sir. mr. liebeler. according to the fbi report of the interview that you gave them on november , you said that just after the shooting some man who had been sitting on a wall directly across the street from you came up and said he saw everything; is that so? mrs. baker. yes. mr. liebeler. did you ever find out what that man's name was? mrs. baker. no, sir; i did not. i didn't see him after that. mr. liebeler. did he tell you what he had seen? mrs. baker. no; i don't remember--he came over--i don't know when he came over now, but he told us he had seen everything--it might have been later that afternoon. i think it was--i think it was later that afternoon. mr. liebeler. did he tell you where he had been, where he could see all this? mrs. baker. he said he was sitting on that wall. mr. liebeler. now, when you say "that wall" i show you again commission exhibit no. . mrs. baker. this wall here [indicating]. mr. liebeler. are you referring to a wall that is on the triangular spot formed by elm street and main street and across elm street from the texas school book depository building? and on commission exhibit no. ; that area has some ink marks on it around part of it? mrs. baker. yes. mr. liebeler. did this man tell you exactly where on the wall he had been sitting? mrs. baker. no; i presume it was on this high wall here--it sticks up real high--i presume he was up there on top. mr. liebeler. you have indicated the part of the wall that faces toward the triple underpass down toward where elm street and main street and commerce all come together? mrs. baker. yes. mr. liebeler. now, there has been some speculation that perhaps the shots might have come from right off the triple overpass, from the railroad tracks that go up over the top, were you able to see these railroad tracks at the time from where you were standing down here--when i say, "down here," i mean the railroad tracks that actually go over elm street and main street and commerce. mrs. baker. no, sir. mr. liebeler. you could not see that? mrs. baker. no, sir. mr. liebeler. did the shots sound like they had come from that area, or did they sound like they had come from the area more around toward the texas school book depository building and behind dealey plaza? mrs. baker. it sounded like it was coming from along in here--it didn't sound like it was too far off. mr. liebeler. it didn't sound like it was coming, however, directly from the railroad tracks that go over elm, main, and commerce; is that right? mrs. baker. no, sir. mr. liebeler. the fbi report also indicates that after the second shot you began to smell gunsmoke; is that correct? mrs. baker. yes. mr. liebeler. could you tell where it was coming from? mrs. baker. no, sir. mr. liebeler. looking at commission exhibit no. , could you pick out the place on elm street as the approximate place where you saw this object hit the ground for us, and we will mark it with a pen or pencil. let's first of all mark the place where you were standing, mrs. baker, if we can. mrs. baker. okay, after he had gone by, i got out into the street, i guess, along in here in the middle of the lanes. mr. liebeler. is that in the middle of the right-hand lane? mrs. baker. yes; the right-hand lane. mr. liebeler. so, we will mark that as no. and we will put a circle around it and its right in front of the texas school book depository building. mrs. baker. yes. mr. liebeler. on elm street in the right-hand lane. mrs. baker. yes. mr. liebeler. and i guess that this tree was along in here somewhere? mrs. baker. i couldn't be sure. mr. liebeler. there appear to be two trees, one on this side of elm street--this looks like a tree right here on the opposite side of elm street toward the dealey plaza. mrs. baker. that's correct. mr. liebeler. and across the street--across elm street there appears to be another tree just down from the wall. mrs. baker. there's not a tree there. mr. liebeler. there's not a tree there? mrs. baker. no, there's a sign there, i think. mr. liebeler. that's a sign. mrs. baker. i think so. mr. liebeler. can you tell us by judging from the tree that's in the corner of dealey plaza closest towards the school book depository building, judging from that, where the thing hit the street? mrs. baker. approximately right here--between the sign and the tree. mr. liebeler. right here, would you say? mrs. baker. yes. mr. liebeler. we have indicated the approximate area where you think it hit and we will indicate it by the no. , is that correct? mrs. baker. yes. mr. liebeler. i have marked this photograph, baker exhibit no. , and i have placed my initials on it and would you put your initials on it just below mine so that we can identify the picture for the purposes of our record? mrs. baker. [complied with request of mr. liebeler.] mr. liebeler. will you look at that picture and see if you can tell from it where you were standing and if that helped you to place the spot where the bullet hit? mrs. baker. it would be back in here behind this car. mr. liebeler. that would have been where you were standing or where the bullet hit? mrs. baker. i really can't tell for the tree there and everything--but it was right in here. mr. liebeler. now, as we look at this picture this is baker exhibit no. , starting from the left front, there are--there is a car down there and there is a volkswagen panel truck in the picture and then there are two cars immediately behind the volkswagen and then there is a convertible out--approximately in the middle of the street, isn't that right? mrs. baker. yes. mr. liebeler. and you think you might have been standing somewhere behind the spot where that convertible is located in this picture; is that right? mrs. baker. either there or right in here. mr. liebeler. right in back around the second car behind the volkswagen? mrs. baker. yes. mr. liebeler. now, this picture actually shows the little grassy area and the trees that lie between elm street and the little street that runs in front of the texas school book depository, doesn't it? mrs. baker. yes. mr. liebeler. can you give me an estimate, looking at this picture, where that thing might have hit the street? mrs. baker. yes. mr. liebeler. it may not be in this picture--i don't know that it is. mrs. baker. i just can't tell--i would say it was over in here somewhere in this picture. mr. liebeler. somewhere in about here? mrs. baker. it could have been further on up. mr. liebeler. well, we will mark the place "x", but you think it might have been right along here or somewhere farther down. now, is there a concrete divider somewhere here on elm street? mrs. baker. not until you pass the underpass. mr. liebeler. not until you get down here towards the underpass and then there are concrete dividers here between elm street and main street? mrs. baker. yes. mr. liebeler. back up here toward the intersection at houston street, there is a curb on the side of elm street and that's all? mrs. baker. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. in other words, you turn down from houston street and go right on down elm street? mrs. baker. yes. mr. liebeler. you saw this thing hit the street before you heard the second shot; is that correct? mrs. baker. yes, sir; yes. mr. liebeler. are you absolutely sure of that? mrs. baker. i hope i am--i know i am. mr. liebeler. in marking the "x" on baker exhibit no. that we marked, we were assuming, were we not, that the "x" was fairly near the first sign on the right-hand side of elm street going toward the triple underpass after the texas school book depository building? mrs. baker. i think that's right. mr. liebeler. i think that we will find that the "x" is--well, it is very difficult to tell the exact spot from which baker exhibit no. was taken, but if in fact we are correct, if in fact it is taken from the side of main street toward commerce street, then the "x" would not be in the right place, would it, if this lampost here that appears in the picture is actually at the end of the grassy spot made by main street and elm street, then the "x" that we have on baker exhibit no. would be too far down toward the triple underpass to be in the right place where you saw it hit, isn't that right; do you follow me? mrs. baker. yes. mr. liebeler. because, if this is actually the end of this grassy spot, if the lamppost is actually the end of the grassy spot here between elm street and main street, this "x" is very close to the triple underpass. mrs. baker. yes. mr. liebeler. and you didn't see the bullet hit that far down the street, did you? mrs. baker. no; not that far. mr. liebeler. it would have been much closer, up towards the texas school book depository building--near the first sign? mrs. baker. this right here are the steps--to the plaza. mr. liebeler. that's right, and as a point of fact, as we look at that now, it becomes quite clear that it was taken from a spot much closer to the triple underpass than we had originally thought, because in the left-hand side of the picture you can see the steps coming down from the plaza. mrs. baker. it must have been right here in this area because these were the steps--i can't tell which sign is which, but i know there were four girls standing near the sign and it must have been back up here because there must have been another sign closer up. mr. liebeler. looking at hudson exhibit no. , which was taken at the time of the assassination, it shows dealey plaza here and there are some steps that go down over here in the very background of the picture and they go down onto the sidewalk and it runs along past elm street here. mrs. baker. this would be the first sign here. mr. liebeler. the stemmons freeway sign. mrs. baker. this one over here--the steps are already here. mr. liebeler. yes; the steps are toward the background in hudson exhibit no. and those appear to be the steps that are also toward the front left of baker exhibit no. . mrs. baker. it was probably back over this way. mr. liebeler. yes, so the "x" on baker exhibit no. is actually in the wrong place as far as these pictures here--it is not correct--it should be further back on up here. mrs. baker. yes; definitely. mr. liebeler. so, we will put a "y" back up here toward the school book depository building, and actually if you look at commission exhibit no. , you can see the steps coming right down to elm street. mrs. baker. yes. mr. liebeler. at the end of dealey plaza toward the triple underpass, and i think that those steps are the same steps we can see in the left front foreground of baker exhibit no. . mrs. baker. that's the sign right in there--that big sign there, and i don't know--the sign would be here, you know. mr. liebeler. that's right, and the sign that we see in the very left front foreground of the picture would be the sign here that is toward the triple underpass from the steps to go down to dealey plaza on the right-hand side of elm street? mrs. baker. yes; this is confusing. mr. liebeler. in any event, you are quite clear in your mind that you saw this thing hit before you heard the second shot? mrs. baker. yes. mr. liebeler. so, if what you saw hitting the street was, in fact, a bullet, it would have been the first shot? mrs. baker. yes. mr. liebeler. did you see anything else around the area of the texas school book depository building that day that you think might have anything to do with the assassination? mrs. baker. i don't know, but before the parade ever got there, someone passed out and i guess it would be to the left, coming down elm street over in this plaza between elm street and main, because an ambulance pulled up and picked someone up--we never could tell who. this was before the motorcade ever got to houston street--i would say onto elm street. mr. liebeler. about how long before the motorcade came did this ambulance come and pick up this person? mrs. baker. i'll judge-- minutes--about minutes. mr. liebeler. the ambulance had already left the area about minutes before the presidential motorcade came? mrs. baker. yes. mr. liebeler. what time did you come to work that morning; do you remember? mrs. baker. well, it could have been : or , because i rode with daddy; my daddy works behind the depository for the katy railroad and if he had to be there at , then i got there at , but that morning, i couldn't tell you, but whatever time daddy had to be at work, that's when i had to be there. mr. liebeler. did you see oswald on the morning of november at any time? mrs. baker. no, sir. mr. liebeler. do you know billy lovelady? mrs. baker. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. i show you commission exhibit no. , and i call your attention to a man standing in the doorway of the texas school book depository building? mrs. baker. yes. mr. liebeler. do you recognize him? mrs. baker. that looks like billy. mr. liebeler. that looks like billy lovelady? mrs. baker. yes. mr. liebeler. and that man you pointed to is immediately as we face the picture to the right of the mark "a" in the picture? mrs. baker. yes. mr. liebeler. and is standing directly against the side of the doorway of the building--of the texas school book depository building? mrs. baker. yes. mr. liebeler. thank you. if you don't have anything else you would like to tell us about this that you think we should know and that i haven't asked you, i have no other questions at this point. mrs. baker. thank you. testimony of james w. altgens the testimony of james w. altgens was taken at : p.m., on july , , in the office of the u.s. attorney. post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. liebeler. will you please stand and take the oath. do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. altgens. i do. mr. liebeler. mr. altgens, my name is wesley j. liebeler. i am an attorney on the staff of the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy. i have been authorized to take your testimony by the commission, pursuant to authority granted to it by president johnson's executive order no. , dated november , , and the joint resolution of congress no. . under the rules of the commission's proceedings you are entitled to have an attorney present if you want one. if you don't think you need one, it's perfectly all right. you are entitled to days' notice and you may actually have gotten days' notice, but if you did not, i presume you are prepared to go ahead, since you are here? mr. altgens. yes; as a matter of fact i had more than days' notice because the time that was originally set up was postponed for almost an additional week, so i had plenty of time. mr. liebeler. would you state your full name for the record, please? mr. altgens. james w. altgens [spelling], a-l-t-g-e-n-s. mr. liebeler. where do you live, sir? mr. altgens. pemberton [spelling], p-e-m-b-e-r-t-o-n drive. mr. liebeler. here in dallas? mr. altgens. yes; dallas. mr. liebeler. are you employed here in dallas at the present time? mr. altgens. yes. mr. liebeler. in what capacity? mr. altgens. officially, i am hired as a wire photo operator, but they use me in three different classifications. i am a photographer and a news photo editor as well as a wire photo operator. mr. liebeler. by whom are you employed? mr. altgens. the associated press, dallas bureau. mr. liebeler. how long have you been employed by the ap? mr. altgens. approximately - / years. mr. liebeler. so one might say you are an experienced photographer and have a little experience in the area of photographic work? mr. altgens. i would assume so. mr. liebeler. when were you born, sir? mr. altgens. april , . mr. liebeler. here in dallas? mr. altgens. here; yes, sir. mr. liebeler. have you lived most of your life here in dallas? mr. altgens. all except my service connected time. mr. liebeler. we have been advised that on november , , you were assigned to take pictures of the presidential motorcade; is that correct? mr. altgens. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. did you do that? mr. altgens. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. would you tell us the circumstances surrounding the taking of the picture or pictures that you did take and just what happened, where you were and all that you know about the events of november the d? mr. altgens. would you like for me to take it from the time that i arrived on the scene up until the time of the shooting? mr. liebeler. yes, sir. mr. altgens. i arrived on the triple overpass at approximately : a.m. mr. liebeler. when you say the triple overpass, you mean the railroad tracks that cross over elm, commerce, and main streets? mr. altgens. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. as they run near the texas school book depository building? mr. altgens. as well as in the opposite direction. mr. liebeler. yes, sir. mr. altgens. my original assignment was to make a pictorial scene of the caravan with the dallas skyline in the background and the triple overpass was selected as the site for making that picture, and when i arrived on the triple overpass there was no one up there but two uniformed policemen and one of the uniformed policemen came over to me and asked me if i was a railroad employee and i told him, "no," and i showed him my press tag and told him i had a department of public safety id card showing i was connected with the ap--associated press, and he said, "well, i'm sorry, but this is private property. it belongs to the railroad and only railroad employees are permitted on this property." and, i explained to him that this was a public event and i thought i would be privileged to make a picture from that area, and he says, "no. this is private property and no one but railroad personnel are permitted in this area." this is a little extraneous but i wanted to point this out, and i said, "well, it looks like you have got it pretty well protected from this area because i see you two uniformed policemen on this overpass and i see you have another uniformed policeman on the overpass on stemmons," and he said, "yes, and no one is permitted over on that overpass." so, then, i had to decide on another location for shooting my pictures, so i proceeded on across the triple overpass into the parking lot which is just behind the book depository building and proceeded on down to elm to the corner of elm and houston, crossed elm going--is that east or south--i guess it is south on houston. yes; south on houston over to main and houston. that seemed to me to be the most likely spot to make any pictures. then i could, by advance planning, get away from that spot after i had made a picture or two and run across the dealey plaza and catch the caravan again down on elm as it proceeded toward the triple overpass and probably get some more pictures, and that was my planning. well, i was at that site when the presidential caravan arrived at that intersection. mr. liebeler. that intersection being the intersection of houston and elm streets? mr. altgens. houston and main. mr. liebeler. houston and main? mr. altgens. yes; houston and main. when the caravan reached houston and main i made at least one shot--one picture--i don't have the roll of film with me now so i don't know exactly, but i know i had made an additional one or two pictures of the caravan coming down main street prior to that, but i got the one picture with the president waving into the camera. mrs. kennedy was looking at me at the time, just as i got ready to snap it the north wind caught her hat and almost blew it off, so she raised her left hand to grab her hat and i did not get her looking into the camera, but i got the governor and mrs. connally and the president with the president waving into the camera. mr. liebeler. this was as they turned? mr. altgens. this was as they turned into the sunlight. mr. liebeler. turning into houston street; is that right? mr. altgens. turning right--headed toward the book depository building. mr. liebeler. all right. mr. altgens. i thereupon grabbed my gadget bag that i carry my extra lenses in and ran fast down across the dealey plaza to get down in front of the caravan for some additional pictures and i took this one picture---- mr. liebeler. wait just a minute now--at this point, as you ran across, you were along elm street; is that correct? mr. altgens. well, i ran across and reached up into--well, the curb area on the west side of elm street. mr. liebeler. across elm street from the texas school book depository building? mr. altgens. yes, sir; and if i had a picture i could probably show you exactly where i was standing. i did show it to agent switzer, if that would be of any help to you. mr. liebeler. yes; i would like to locate that spot. i show you exhibit no. , which is an aerial view of the area that we have been discussing. mr. altgens. this is the book depository building, correct? mr. liebeler. yes. (the witness points to the school book depository building.) mr. altgens. this would put me at approximately this area here, which would be about feet from me at the time he was shot in the head--about feet from the car on the west side of the car--on the side that mrs. kennedy was riding in the car. mr. liebeler. you have indicated a spot along the side of elm street which i have marked with a no. ; is that correct? mr. altgens. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. i that approximately where you were standing? mr. altgens. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. now, when you took the picture of the caravan turning from main street to the right on houston street, you then ran across this dealey plaza? mr. altgens. down this way; yes, sir. mr. liebeler. along the lawn part. mr. altgens. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. to the point marked no. on commission exhibit no. ? mr. altgens. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. and at that point did you take another picture? mr. altgens. i made one picture at the time i heard a noise that sounded like a firecracker--i did not know it was a shot, but evidently my picture, as i recall, and it was almost simultaneously with the shot--the shot was just a fraction ahead of my picture, but that much of course--at that time i figured it was nothing more than a firecracker, because from my position down here the sound was not of such volume that it would indicate to me it was a high-velocity rifle. mr. liebeler. did you have any idea where the sound came from when you were standing there at no. on commission exhibit no. ? mr. altgens. well, it sounded like it was coming up from behind the car from my position--i mean the first shot, and being fireworks--who counts fireworks explosions? i wasn't keeping track of the number of pops that took place, but i could vouch for no. , and i can vouch for the last shot, but i cannot tell you how many shots were in between. there was not another shot fired after the president was struck in the head. that was the last shot--that much i will say with a great degree of certainty. mr. liebeler. what makes you so certain of that, mr. altgens? mr. altgens. because, having heard these shots and then having seen the damage that was done on this shot to the president's head, i was aware at that time that shooting was taking place and there was not a shot--i looked--i looked because i knew the shot had to come from either over here, if it were close range, or had to come from a high-powered rifle. mr. liebeler. when you say "over here," you indicate what? mr. altgens. the left side of the car. mr. liebeler. that would be approximately the intersection of elm street and the little street that runs down in front of the texas school book depository building; isn't that right? mr. altgens. somewhere in that direction, yes, sir. but if it were a pistol it would have to be fired at close range for any degree of accuracy and there was no one in that area that i could see with any firearms, so i looked back up in this area. mr. liebeler. indicating the buildings surrounding the intersection of houston street and elm street; is that correct? mr. altgens. yes. what made me almost certain that the shot came from behind was because at the time i was looking at the president, just as he was struck, it caused him to move a bit forward. he seemed as if at the time--well, he was in a position--sort of immobile. he wasn't upright. he was at an angle but when it hit him, it seemed to have just lodged--it seemed as if he were hung up on a seat button or something like that. it knocked him just enough forward that he came right on down. there was flesh particles that flew out of the side of his head in my direction from where i was standing, so much so that it indicated to me that the shot came out of the left side of his head. also, the fact that his head was covered with blood, the hairline included, on the left side--all the way down, with no blood on his forehead or face--suggested to me, too, that the shot came from the opposite side, meaning in the direction of this depository building, but at no time did i know for certain where the shot came from. mr. liebeler. because you didn't see who fired it? mr. altgens. because i didn't see who fired it. after the presidential car moved a little past me, i took another picture--now, just let me back up here--i was prepared to make a picture at the very instant the president was shot. i had refocused to feet because i wanted a good closeup of the president and mrs. kennedy, and that's why i know that it would be right at feet, because i had prefocused in that area, and i had my camera almost to my eye when it happened and that's as far as i got with my camera. because, you see, even up to that time i didn't know that the president had been shot previously. i still thought up until that time that all i heard was fireworks and that they were giving some sort of celebration to the president by popping these fireworks. it stunned me so at what i saw that i failed to do my duty and make the picture that i was hoping to make. the car never did stop. it was proceeding along in a slow pace and i stepped out in the curb area and made another picture as the secret service man stepped upon the rear step of the presidential car and went to mrs. kennedy's aid and then after that i immediately crossed the street and once again i was looking to see if i could find anything in this area of elm and houston streets that would suggest to me where the shot came from. moreover, i was interested in knowing whether or not somebody else had been struck by a bullet or one of the bullets in this area. i saw that no one else had been hit. i did notice after i got on this side of the street, that would be on the opposite side of the presidential car from where i was standing originally, which would be the left side of the car from where i was standing--looking up toward the building--i saw people looking out of windows. i saw a couple of negroes looking out of a window which i later learned was the floor below where the gun--where the sniper's nest was supposed to have been, but it didn't register on me at the time that they were looking from an area that the bullet might have come from. there was utter confusion at the time i crossed the street. the secret service men, uniformed policemen with drawn guns that went racing up this little incline and i thought---- mr. liebeler. when you speak of "little incline" that means the area--the little incline on the grassy area here by this concrete structure across elm street toward the school book depository building, is that part of dealey plaza too over in here, this concrete structure, or is dealey plaza only the name ascribed to this area here between elm street and commerce street? mr. altgens. i really don't know, sir--i don't know whether this is considered part of the dealey plaza or whether this is just something extra as you might have for dressing. mr. liebeler. the part we are referring to that we are not just sure if it is a part of dealey plaza lies between elm street and the railroad tracks that run behind it over here and from the railroad tracks that go over the triple underpass, and this little grassy area that you have just mentioned is just between the area formed by elm street and the street that runs directly in front of the school book depository building; is that correct? mr. altgens. yes, sir. i started up the incline with--or, after the officers, because they were moving well ahead of me and i was moving behind them thinking perhaps if they had the assassin cornered i wanted a picture, but before i had gotten over one-quarter of the way up the incline, i met the officers coming back and i presumed that they were just chasing shadows, so to speak, because there was no assassin in the area apparently, but i didn't learn the location of the sniper's nest until i was en route out to parkland hospital to continue my assignment and i heard it on the radio, that the assassin's nest was in the sixth floor window of the book depository building. after that i made a good look through this area to see that no one else had been hit. i noticed the couple that were on the ground over here with their children, i saw them when they went down and they were in the area and laid there some time after the presidential car had disappeared. mr. liebeler. they threw themselves on the ground in this grassy area that i have just described previously where you ran across after this last shot? mr. altgens. yes; but they were not hit. i looked at them and they weren't hit by a bullet, so i took another long look around before i started my dash back to the office, and as it turned out, my report was the first that our service had on the assassination and my pictures were the only pictures we had available for a period of about hours. mr. liebeler. i have a picture here which has been marked as commission exhibit no. and i ask you if that is not the first picture that you took after you left the intersection of main and houston and crossed dealey plaza and stood on the side of elm street across from the texas school book depository book building? mr. altgens. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. do you recognize that as the picture which you took? mr. altgens. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. do you know any of the individuals depicted in that picture? mr. altgens. no, sir; i do not. mr. liebeler. you testified previously, i believe, that the first shot that was fired had just been fired momentarily before you took the picture, is that right? mr. altgens. yes, sir; it was so close you could almost say it was simultaneous because it was coincidental but nevertheless that's just the way it happened. mr. liebeler. when you first heard this shot, did you see any reaction either on the part of the president or anyone else that indicated they might have been hit by this shot? mr. altgens. no, sir; and as a matter of fact, i did not know that governor connally had been hit until one of our reporters got the information out at parkland hospital. mr. liebeler. as the presidential car went down elm street, did you observe governor connally's movements at all, did you see what he was doing? mr. altgens. no, sir; my attention was primarily on the president and mrs. kennedy and i just wasn't paying too much attention about the other people in the car after what i saw happen. of course, my concern was about the president and i just wasn't paying too much attention to others in the car. mr. liebeler. you are quite sure in your mind, however, that there were no shots, a noise that sounded like shots, prior to the time at which you took the picture that has been marked commission exhibit no. ; is that correct? mr. altgens. no, sir; i did not--you see--all of these shots sounded the same. if you heard one you would recognize the other shots and these were all the same. it was a pop that i don't believe i could identify it any other way than as a firecracker and this particular picture was made at the time the first firecracker noise was heard by me. mr. liebeler. now, you don't think that there could have been any other shots fired prior to that time that you wouldn't have heard, you were standing right there and you would have heard them, would you not? mr. altgens. i'm sure i would have--yes, sir. mr. liebeler. you also testified that you were standing perhaps no more than feet away when the president was hit in the head and that you are absolutely certain that there were no shots fired after the president was hit in the head? mr. altgens. yes, sir; that's correct. mr. liebeler. could you tell us approximately how many shots there were between the first and the last shot--as you well know--there were supposed to have been three shots, but how many shots did you hear? mr. altgens. well, i wouldn't want to say--i don't want to guess, because facts are so important on something like this. i am inclined to feel like that there were not as many as i have heard people say. i think it's of a smaller denomination, a smaller number, but i cannot--i can really only vouch for the two. now, i know that there was at least one shot in between. mr. liebeler. at least one? mr. altgens. i would say that--i know there was one in between. it is possible there might have been another one--i don't really know, but two, i can really account for. mr. liebeler. and that's the first one and the last one? mr. altgens. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. do you have any recollection as to the spacing of these shots? mr. altgens. they seemed to be at almost regular intervals and they were quick. mr. liebeler. how much time do you think elapsed between the first and the last shot? mr. altgens. well, let's see--i would have to figure it out on a speed basis because they were going at approximately to miles per hour downhill and i would say that all the shots were fired within the space of less than seconds. that's an estimate. mr. liebeler. how far away was the presidential car when you took the picture that has been marked commission exhibit no. --you must have had your camera focused? mr. altgens. yes, sir; it was about feet. mr. liebeler. looking at commission exhibit no. , we have placed you at no. on that picture. mr. altgens. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. in looking at commission exhibit no. , does it appear to you that could have been taken from position on commission exhibit no. and only be feet away from the presidential car at that time--i'm not saying it wasn't--i mean, just what does it look like to you? the question i'm driving at, of course, is--i want to know--did you move from the time you took the first picture, which is commission exhibit no. , and the time you saw the president's head hit, did you move down the street at all? mr. altgens. may i ask you a question in return? mr. liebeler. sure. mr. altgens. i have no reason to doubt that by relating other testimony, that you have come up with this figure as being an exact location as to when the presidential car was struck by the bullet--the first bullet. mr. liebeler. you mean on commission exhibit no. ? mr. altgens. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. oh, no; not at all. these figures numbers , , and don't indicate where the shots hit. they are for entirely different purposes. figure no. on this picture, commission exhibit no. , indicates where someone was standing--that's all that indicates. mr. altgens. well, i will have to ask you this question, then, sir, because as you will know by looking at this picture---- mr. liebeler. commission exhibit no. ? mr. altgens. excuse me--picture --there is a tree way behind the presidential car. now, figure is placed up in front of this tree, which means that figure would have been behind the car at the time the president received the first shot. mr. liebeler. yes; referring to exhibit no. . mr. altgens. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. of course, that has no significance because these numbers have nothing to do with the place where the car was when the president was hit. mr. altgens. i'm sorry--i just misinterpreted it. mr. liebeler. i can see why you could assume that, because as you look here at commission exhibit no. , you see , , , and spaced down elm street and you did infer that that's the location the president's car was when it was hit. mr. altgens. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. which is not right because those numbers do not indicate that in any way whatsoever--they are not related to that notion at all. mr. altgens. yes, sir; i did not move from fixed position . if i moved at all, it would be to step into the curb area to make a picture and back upon the curb because there were motorcycle policemen on either side of the presidential car and i didn't want to get in their way, but if you will look at this picture---- mr. liebeler. referring to exhibit no. . mr. altgens. you will see by then referring to picture no. , that the presidential car was well down elm street in front of a tree that is located in a grassy area which is just off of elm street and just off of the street that runs down in front of the book depository building, which would indicate that the point at which he was struck, the location of the car, would be approximately feet in front of the position from which i made this picture. does that make sense? mr. liebeler. yes; what you are saying is that picture was taken at a time when the president's car had actually gone down elm street to a point past this tree that stands at the corner here, in the grassy area, outlined by elm street and a little street that runs down by the texas school book depository building? mr. altgens. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. now, the thing that is troubling me, though, mr. altgens, is that you say the car was feet away at the time you took commission exhibit no. and that is the time at which the first shot was fired? mr. altgens. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. and that it was feet away at the time the third shot was fired. mr. altgens. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. but during that period of time the car moved much more than feet down elm street going down toward the triple underpass? mr. altgens. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. i don't know how many feet it moved, but it moved quite a ways from the time the first shot was fired until the time the third shot was fired. i'm having trouble on this exhibit no. understanding how you could have been within feet of the president's car when you took commission exhibit no. and within feet of the car when he was hit with the last shot in the head without having moved yourself. now, you have previously indicated that you were right beside the president's car when he was hit in the head. mr. altgens. well, i was about feet from it. mr. liebeler. but it was almost directly in front of you as it went down the street; isn't that right? mr. altgens. yes. mr. liebeler. am i wrong, or isn't it correct that under that testimony the car couldn't have moved very far down elm street between the time you took exhibit no. , which you took when the first shot was fired, and the time that you saw his head being hit, which was the time the last shot was fired? mr. altgens. well, i have to take into consideration the law governing photographic materials and the use of optics in cameras--lenses--and while my camera may have been set on a distance of feet, there is a plus or minus area in which the focus still is maintained. i figure that this is approximately feet because that's what i have measured on my camera. mr. liebeler. and you say exhibit no. was taken about feet away? mr. altgens. but it might be feet, but i couldn't say that that's exactly the distance because while it may be in focus at feet, my camera has it in focus feet. it's the same thing--if i focus at feet, my focus might extend feet and it might also be reduced to feet, but my focusing was in that general area of feet. i believe, if you will let me say something further here about this picture---- mr. liebeler. go ahead. mr. altgens. possibly i could step this off myself from this position, this approximate position where i was standing and step off the distance, using as a guidepost the marker on this post here or some marker that i can find in the area and i can probably step it off or measure it off and get the exact footage. i was just going by the markings on my camera. mr. liebeler. the important thing is--it's not all that important as to how far you were away from the car at the time you took the picture--the thing that i want to establish is that you are absolutely sure that you took exhibit no. at about the time the first shot was fired and that you are quite sure also in your own mind that there were no shots fired after you saw the president hit in the head. mr. altgens. that is correct; in both cases. mr. liebeler. so, it is clear from your testimony that the third shot--the last shot, rather--hit the president? mr. altgens. well, off and on we have been referring to the third shot and the fourth shot, but actually, it was the last shot, the shot did strike the president and there was no other sound like a shot that was made after that. i was just going to make a conclusion here, but that's not my place to do that, so i'll just forget it--what i was going to say. mr. liebeler. well, what were you going to suggest--go ahead. mr. altgens. well, it seems obvious now, when you think back on it--of course, at the time you don't reason these things out in a state of shock, but it seemed obvious to me afterwards that there wouldn't be another shot if the sniper saw what damage he did. he did enough damage to create enough attention to the fact that everybody knew he was firing a gun. another shot would have truly given him away, because everybody was looking for him, but as i say, that's an obvious conclusion on my part, but there was not another shot fired after the president was struck in the head. mr. liebeler. now, of course, you are aware of the fact that there is an individual portrayed in exhibit no. , standing right in the door of the school book depository building? mr. altgens. yes. mr. liebeler. just to the right of the no. a in the picture? mr. altgens. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. you are aware that he has been thought to resemble lee harvey oswald by certain people and it has been my understanding that a newspaper reporter by the name of bonafede called you and discussed this picture with you? mr. altgens. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. do you have any information as to whether or not that man might be lee oswald or some other man? mr. altgens. no, sir; i have never seen the man before in my life and have seen no one that looks like him since. mr. liebeler. did this newspaper reporter tell you that it was oswald, or that it was somebody else--did you have any conversations with him about that? mr. altgens. oh, yes, sir; as a matter of fact i had two calls from him. i never met the man bonafede, personally, but i had two calls from him and he indicated to me he was writing a story around this picture which showed this controversial figure standing in the doorway of picture no. . he was asking me if i knew him, if i had any information that i might be able to give him in connection with this, inasmuch as he was doing a story on it, and naturally i had no information to give him in that connection, but i don't know the man and i have never had an assignment down at the bookstore before or after the shooting so i have had no occasion to meet anyone down there in the building either before or after. mr. liebeler. i don't think i have any more questions at this point, mr. altgens. can you think of anything else you think might be significant--let me ask you this--while you were standing there alongside of elm street and you heard this noise that you later deduced was a shot, after that time did you have any occasion to look up at the school book depository building? mr. altgens. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. did you see anything up there? mr. altgens. well, as i said earlier--when i crossed the street, my vision prior to that was sort of obstructed because of the growth of trees in that area and me being down in a low spot, i couldn't see the whole building too well, but after crossing the street, i looked up to that building as well as the other buildings back on houston street. mr. liebeler. yes; i remember you testified about that and you said you saw those two negroes? mr. altgens. i saw the two negroes but i at that time lent no significance to that until i later heard where the shots were coming from and also since that time i have heard other people say they saw them too. mr. liebeler. do you know which window they were in, approximately, where on the fifth floor? mr. altgens. well, they looked to me to be on the floor below, but they were leaning out as though they were looking for something. i do remember that, but since they had nothing in their hands i didn't feel that the shot was coming from their particular area. i saw no rifle at any time although i was looking for one and i reported it to my associated press that the president was apparently shot by a high-powered rifle, that's the way we carried it on the wire--credited to my statement. mr. liebeler. when you saw these negroes up there, were they in the center of the building or toward the part of the building closer to the triple underpass or toward houston street, or just where were they on the face here of the school book depository building as it faces out on elm street? and main street? mr. altgens. well, as i recall, they were down here close to houston street. they weren't directly under the window that was later described as being the area of the assassin's nest, but i think they were in a pair of windows that was maybe the next set of windows over, which was a floor below. mr. liebeler. when you say "over," you mean down towards the triple underpass? mr. altgens. yes. mr. liebeler. so that they were closer to the corner of the building that is near the intersection of elm and houston than they were towards the triple underpass end of the building? mr. altgens. yes; there were also a number of people looking out of--i believe this building here [indicating on photograph]. mr. liebeler. indicating the building immediately across houston street from the school book depository? mr. altgens. but--they were scattered and once again, i couldn't see anything over there that suggested to me that they might have a rifle, and, of course, the buildings here which are the county records and courthouse buildings--those windows--i think had nobody in them because i believe they are closed and locked. i'm not real certain of that, but i don't recall seeing anyone at those windows over there. mr. liebeler. and you indicate then the building that it catercornered across the street on houston street toward main street from the school book depository? mr. altgens. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. right at the intersection of houston street and elm as it comes down and goes past the school book depository building? mr. altgens. yes. mr. liebeler. at any time after you went back up here and to the intersection on elm and houston and after the motorcade came, did you have occasion to look down toward the railroad tracks going across the triple underpass? mr. altgens. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. did you see anybody down there? mr. altgens. yes, sir; as a matter of fact--let me go back to my position at houston and main. i was at that intersection approximately at : , which meant i had close to an hour wait before the caravan was due in that area, and along about noon--of course, there were some other things that happened--there was a man who had an epileptic fit along about that area there, a young fellow approximately or years old, and i was standing over here at the intersection next to a sergeant's motorcycle--it was a tricycle motorcycle. mr. liebeler. this was the intersection of main and houston that you were standing near? mr. altgens. yes, sir; and the time was approximately : , i would imagine--i say : and as i relate the events you will see why i say that, because this sergeant at the motorcycle called for an ambulance and an ambulance came and picked the man up and as the ambulance was leaving through the triple overpass, underneath the triple overpass, i saw the presidential caravan, the red lights and so on that lead the caravan, coming on to main street off of harwood. mr. liebeler. further up main street from where you were standing? mr. altgens. yes; clear up at the other end of town because main street goes uphill and that made it easy for me to spot the red lights indicating the presidential caravan then was starting down main street, and along about the time the sergeant called for the ambulance, i was looking back up here at the triple overpass and i remarked to the sergeant, i said, "look at all those people up there on the triple overpass." i would estimate about a dozen were up there. mr. liebeler. on the railroad tracks immediately over elm--immediately over the triple underpass? mr. altgens. yes, sir; and i said, "i wonder what the heck all those people are doing up there when they wouldn't let me up there to make pictures?" and he said, "well, i suppose they are railroad people." i said, "well, if they are permitted up there, it seems like they would let me up there just to make a picture." he said, "well, you know we've got our orders too." so, i just dropped it at that time, but there were at that time--now, this was prior to the presidential arrival in the main-houston street area that i noticed these people up here. mr. liebeler. up on the triple underpass? mr. altgens. yes; i keep forgetting that we are taking the testimony down here. after the presidential caravan had proceeded down elm street, this was approximately : , then, after the president was shot--the car passed in front of me--i stepped into the curb area and made a picture of the secret service man going to the assistance of mrs. kennedy. i made a picture at that time which shows part of the triple overpass but it does not show the people up on it. mr. liebeler. did you notice whether there were still people on it at that time? mr. altgens. yes, sir; there were people up on it and i looked in that direction, but not for a firearm--i didn't really expect any. mr. liebeler. why was that? mr. altgens. because as i said before--the way the bullet impact hit the president, it had to come from behind or beside the automobile in order to cause him to move forward a little bit and i didn't expect to find anything up in that area, so that is why i was concentrating my observation back in this part, back in the main--excuse me--back in the houston-elm intersection area to see if i could find the rifle. mr. liebeler. and you didn't see anybody standing on the overpass with a firearm of any kind? mr. altgens. no, sir. mr. liebeler. i don't think i have any more questions, mr. altgens, unless you can think of something else that you think would be significant that i haven't thought to ask you about, i think we can terminate the deposition. mr. altgens. no, sir; i can't think of anything--it seems like we have covered it pretty well. mr. liebeler. thank you very much for coming in. mr. altgens. you are welcome, sir--i was glad to do it and i hope that whatever i've had to say will be of some help. mr. liebeler. i think it will. mr. altgens. let me tell you this off the record, because it doesn't matter, but you notice mr. switzer, the fbi agent that came out--he and his partner--and talked with me, he brought up this bonafede to me--the name and then he asked me if i knew somebody else, a woman columnist in a chicago newspaper. mr. liebeler. yes? mr. altgens. and then showed me a clipping where she too had referred to me in the taking of a picture and i also received a telephone call from a john gold who is, i guess, a correspondent connected with the london daily news. i got a call from him on the thursday night about or : at night, asking me what that story was all about because---- mr. liebeler. the magy daley story or the bonafede story? mr. altgens. no; this was the bonafede story, because they had put it on television--as a teaser to sell publications and the public on the upcoming sunday--the sunday publication. mr. liebeler. yes; the new york tribune. mr. altgens. and gee, i didn't know what to tell the guy because i didn't know bonafede had written, but bonafede talked with me. i asked him and i said, "are you going to quote me on anything i say?" and, he says, "well, if i do quote you, i'll call you back and ask you for your permission," and i said, swell. mr. liebeler. of course, he did quote you and he didn't call you back? mr. altgens. well, i got a copy of the thing--i didn't gather from the article he was quoting me on anything in particular other than to say that i was a witness and i hadn't been called to testify before the commission or questioned by the fbi or the secret service, but i don't think that he really tied any information to me in the course of writing the story, but it was real strange the way the thing unfolded. i had tried previously to get my bureau chief to give me permission to notify the warren commission or someone to let them know i had been in the area, not that my testimony would be of much value, but still if it could be of just a little bit of help i wanted to do what i thought was right, and my boss never got permission for me to do that, and that's why i never did step forward, because i had no authority. really, i didn't feel that i could act on my own. i wanted to wait until someone gave me authority to do it. mr. liebeler. well, your testimony has been helpful to the extent that it helps to establish the timing of the shots and i'm glad you gave it to us. mr. altgens. well, i wish i had been able to give this information to you the next day when it was fresh on my mind because months or so later, sometimes the facts might be just a little bit off and i hate to see it that way. mr. liebeler. all right. thank you very much for coming. testimony of harry d. holmes the testimony of harry d. holmes was taken at p.m., on july , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. liebeler. would you rise and raise your right hand? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. holmes. i do. mr. liebeler. i understand that you have previously been examined by one of the attorneys on the staff, and i assume they advised you of the basis on which we are conducting the examination and the rights that you have in the situation, so i won't bother to go through that again. mr. holmes. yes. mr. liebeler. would you state your full name for the record? mr. holmes. harry d. holmes. mr. liebeler. you are the chief postal inspector? mr. holmes. no; it is just postal inspector. mr. liebeler. stationed with the post office here in dallas; is that correct? mr. holmes. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. i just have a few questions that i wanted to ask you that have come up since we took your testimony the last time. one of the things i would like to know about, if you have any information on it, is how long it ordinarily takes a parcel post shipment to come to dallas from chicago. mr. holmes. it would depend on the time of day it was mailed, and whether it was mailed just prior to the next most expeditious dispatch. but i would say certainly not over, well, it would be in dallas the next day. but whether it would get to a box--that's right, it would be available at his box--should be the next day. mr. liebeler. of course, this question relates specifically to the shipment of the rifle. mr. holmes. that's right. mr. liebeler. shipped from chicago and addressed to mr. hidell at post office box here in dallas, and you say that it generally would have been available at the post office here in dallas the day following its delivery to the post office in chicago? mr. holmes. i have no idea when it was mailed there, but it should have been available here the next day. if it were to be delivered to a street address, it would be the second day, because it would not make morning delivery. but to a post office box, he should have. of course, he had told me he didn't come to that box too regularly, so there is no assurance of when it was picked up. mr. liebeler. but as far as the possibility is concerned, it would have been available here at the post office box the following morning from chicago? mr. holmes. that's right. mr. liebeler. after it has been received here in dallas, as i understand the procedure, a notice would be put in the post office box indicating that a package was being held there in the post office; is that correct? mr. holmes. there is a regular card, when the package is too large to go in the box, or if it is c.o.d., or insured, or registered. however, this was an ordinary parcel. it was not insured or c.o.d. there would be a card for him put in the box, and he would have to pick it up at a window. mr. liebeler. what about as far as los angeles is concerned, from los angeles to dallas? how long would it take a parcel post to reach dallas from los angeles? mr. holmes. at least days. mr. liebeler. could it possibly be longer than days? mr. holmes. yes. mr. liebeler. how much longer, do you think? how about on the average, do you have any idea? mr. holmes. no; it depends on the time of mailing. it is days' train run from los angeles here, and if it happens to catch an early dispatch, it would be in here the morning of the third day. mr. liebeler. from chicago it is only a -day train run, is that correct? mr. holmes. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. so it would be here, if it had an early dispatch, on the morning of the following day? mr. holmes. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. my understanding is that an application for a post office box comes in three separate parts. do you have---- (mr. holmes hands paper to attorney.) mr. liebeler. you have, in fact, handed me a sample of such an application. mr. holmes. i thought you might want one, so i brought one along. mr. liebeler. that was very good, and we will mark this as holmes exhibit no. -a on your deposition of july , . i have put my initials on the corner after i have marked it. would you initial it, too, for the purpose of identification? (mr. holmes initials.) mr. liebeler. what is the ordinary procedure that is followed when a box is rented and this form is used? mr. holmes. the form is completed, usually by the applicant, and it must be signed by the applicant, even if an employee does complete it. this portion of the--i don't know how you want to designate it. mr. liebeler. we will number them portions , , and . mr. holmes. all right, part of this application is simply the instructions on a combination box, and instructions to the patron is torn off, and he keeps it or they throw it away. portions and are completed, too. gives the applicant's name, the name of his corporation or firm he represents, if applicable, the kind of business, the business address, the home address, and the place for his signature and the date. on the third portion is a box for him to indicate whether he wants all mail in the box, or just whether he wants some other disposition and so on, and a place for name of person entitled to receive mail through the box other than the applicant himself, and he fills in that. these two portions then remain together in the file of the post office where he made application. mr. liebeler. that is portions and ? mr. holmes. until he relinquishes the box. they pull this out and endorse it so the box has been closed, and the date and they tear off and throw it away. it has no more purpose. that is what happened on box . mr. liebeler. they have thrown part away? mr. holmes. yes; as it so happens, even though they closed the box in new orleans, they still had part and it showed that the mail for marina oswald and a. j. hidell was good in the box. they hadn't complied with regulations. they still had it there. mr. liebeler. it was a lucky thing. mr. holmes. we wish they had here. mr. liebeler. now is this regulation that says section should be torn off and thrown away, is that a general regulation of the post office department? mr. holmes. it is in the post office manual instructions to employees; yes, sir. mr. liebeler. so there is no way, as i understand it, to tell from the records maintained, as far as you know anyway, who was authorized to receive mail at post office box that oswald had while he was here in dallas before he went to new orleans in april of ; is that correct? mr. holmes. other than oswald himself and his name on the application. mr. liebeler. right. mr. holmes. now he did tell me in personal interrogation that no one was permitted to get mail in that box but him. mr. liebeler. he said that same thing about the box in new orleans, too, didn't he? mr. holmes. he did at first, and then---- mr. liebeler. then you showed him portion three of the application and then he changed his story? mr. holmes. i said how about marina oswald, and he said, well, she was my wife. what is wrong with that? and i said how about a. j. hidell, and he said i don't know anything about that. and i said look here. and he said, well, i don't know. mr. liebeler. now supposing that oswald had not in fact authorized a. j. hidell to receive mail here in the dallas box and that a package came addressed to the name of hidell, which, in fact, one did at post office box , what procedure would be followed when that package came in? mr. holmes. they would put the notice in the box. mr. liebeler. regardless of whose name was associated with the box? mr. holmes. that is the general practice. the theory being, i have a box. i have a brother come to visit me. my brother would have my same name--well, a cousin. you can get mail in there. they are not too strict. you don't have to file that third portion to get service for other people there. i imagine they might have questioned him a little bit when they handed it out to him, but i don't know. it depends on how good he is at answering questions, and everything would be all right. mr. liebeler. so that the package would have come in addressed to hidell at post office box , and a notice would have been put in the post office box without regard to who was authorized to receive mail from it? mr. holmes. actually, the window where you get the box is all the way around the corner and a different place from the box, and the people that box the mail, and in theory--i am surmising now, because nobody knows. i have questioned everybody, and they have no recollection. the man would take this card out. there is nothing on this card. there is no name on it, not even a box number on it. he comes around and says, "i got this out of my box." and he says, "what box?" "box number so and so." they look in a bin where they have this by box numbers, and whatever the name on it, whatever they gave him, he just hands him the package, and that is all there is to it. mr. liebeler. ordinarily, they won't even request any identification because they would assume if he got the notice out of the box, he was entitled to it? mr. holmes. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. it is very possible that that in fact is what happened in this case? mr. holmes. that is in theory. i would assume that is what happened. mr. liebeler. on the other hand, it is also possible that oswald had actually authorized hidell to receive mail through the box? mr. holmes. could have been. and on the other hand, he had this identification card of hidell's in his billfold, which he could have produced and showed the window clerk. either way, he got it. mr. liebeler. right. i believe i am correct in my understanding that when mr. belin took your testimony previously, that you did mark as exhibits the various forms that oswald had filled out here in the post office department in dallas; isn't that right? mr. holmes. you mean the box rent application? mr. liebeler. yes. mr. holmes. i have long since given them to the fbi. however, i endorsed them at the time i gave them to the fbi. mr. liebeler. i can't remember. mr. holmes. i will show you a photocopy maybe. mr. liebeler. the basic thrust of my question is that you have given the originals of the documents to the fbi? mr. holmes. i have the receipts, except for ruby's box, which nobody ever asked me for, and i still have them. that is ruby's box at the terminal annex. mr. liebeler. well, that is not a part of the record so far. we should mark it as a part of the record now. are you required to keep this in your records? mr. holmes. if you will give me a receipt for it. i have a photocopy. mr. liebeler. it is quite as legible, the photocopy, so why don't i just mark the photocopy and you keep the original? mr. holmes. okay. mr. liebeler. i have initialed the photocopy, and i would like to have you initial it also for the purpose of identification, and we will mark that as holmes exhibit no. -a on your deposition of july , , a photocopy of a post office box application in the name of jack ruby, dated november , . post office box no. , and as i understand it, this was an application that was made at the terminal annex here in dallas, is that correct? mr. holmes. that is right. mr. liebeler. is there any way in which we can tell from just looking at it, or that is something you know from having gotten the copy from the terminal annex? mr. holmes. the box number categories are set out for each station that comes within that bracket. the applications don't tell you what post office it is from. it might be from san antonio. but i don't know why. what are your initials and name? mr. liebeler. w. j. l., wesley j. liebeler. mr. holmes. how do you spell your last name? mr. liebeler (spelling). l-i-e-b-e-l-e-r. mr. holmes. thank you [handing another card to mr. liebeler]. i will explain it to you, and you might want to ask me for the record what it is. mr. liebeler. yes; you have handed me a postcard, post office department form , notice to change forwarding order. mr. holmes. that is different from our in that this is simply a forwarding order. this is to change a forwarding order. to interpret it, lee oswald, on october , , in new orleans, gave his box in dallas as the last address. he had given a forwarding order on this box to this box in new orleans on may , . now then, he is again forwarding from this box. not again, but it is a second forwarding. mr. liebeler. this would indicate that instructions had been given to forward from box here in dallas? mr. holmes. direct without going through---- mr. liebeler. this would indicate that all together, he had first issued instructions that mail should be forwarded from box in dallas to box in new orleans, and this would now indicate that mail was to be forwarded to west fifth street in irving, tex., and that is dated october , . now, there are several postmarks appearing on this form. there is one dallas postmark of october on both sides, and there is also a postmark in new orleans, which is difficult to read, but it is sometime in october. now you suggested perhaps october , . what do you interpret happened with regard to this notice, post office department form ? can you tell from looking at it where, in the ordinary course of events, he would have first prepared this form? mr. holmes. that would have been prepared in new orleans and dropped in the mailbox. he would have prepared that at a station, because they have filled the front in and crossed it out. in fact, they hand these out at the stations. he has gone into the station probably where he had this box. in the normal course of the patron's activities he would have gone into that station where that box is and said, "i want my mail forwarded." all right, fill this out. it looks like they might have filled it out for him. it doesn't look too much like his writing. but they would have filled this out to show that mail from this box should not be sent to new orleans, but sent to irving, so the post office would send that up to dallas where this box is at the main office, and they would have that on file here. mr. liebeler. box , you mean? that address here? mr. holmes. here is a photocopy of box application, and it will show it was closed on may , , which is this red figure up here. so when they got that in here in dallas, they would have put this red mark on there for some reason to show when the box was closed, and then they would keep this in their file as instructions until they got some other instructions. mr. liebeler. isn't it possible that this form which, well, do you have a photostatic of this form we have been talking about? mr. holmes. i don't believe so. mr. liebeler. let me mark this original one for the record then, if i may. mr. holmes. that is all right. mr. liebeler. i have initialed this post office department form , which has been marked "holmes exhibit no. -a on deposition of july , ," and i would like to have you initial it also for the purpose of identification. (mr. holmes initials.) mr. liebeler. i want to ask you some more questions about holmes exhibit no. , which is postmarked, as we have indicated, october , in dallas, and also bears a postmark in new orleans which i think is october . mr. holmes. my best educated guess is the th. mr. liebeler. let me come bluntly to the point. my problem is this. oswald wasn't in new orleans on october . he was in dallas. mr. holmes. now, he could have filled that out here. it could have been mailed to new orleans for forwarding the mail up from there. he could have mailed it from some other post office, and they would have mailed it. but they would have had to enclose it in an envelope. mr. liebeler. yes; because it is addressed to the postmaster in dallas, tex., and just as sure as anything it has a new orleans postmark on it. mr. holmes. yes; prior to the dallas one, if we read the new orleans one correctly. mr. liebeler. the new orleans is hard to read, but it certainly is an october postmark. mr. holmes. that is the reason i wanted you to read the memo, because the hours are down there and are different from that. mr. liebeler. now the new orleans post office inspector, or an inspector in the office of new orleans, has advised you that oswald filled out a form ? mr. holmes. that is the regular forwarding order. mr. liebeler. and he did that on september ; is that correct? or september ? mr. holmes. september . mr. liebeler. september , , and his box down there was closed on september , presumably pursuant to the order that was mailed to them under postmark of september , . now has the post office department in new orleans given you any advice at all, as far as you can tell, concerning this post office department form , which we have marked holmes exhibit no. -a? mr. holmes. no; other than their postmark on there. there is no endorsement there. but you see, lafayette station is in new orleans, and it looks like that was completed by the person at lafayette station. mr. liebeler. inasmuch as that is exactly what it says. mr. holmes. if that were completed in some other post office, they wouldn't know that box was in lafayette station. mr. liebeler. let me suggest this. there is not the slightest evidence that oswald ever filled that form out or ever saw it? mr. holmes. no; that is right. mr. liebeler. because it is perfectly obvious this isn't his handwriting. mr. holmes. that is my opinion, too. mr. liebeler. so apparently somebody in the new orleans post office filled this form out? mr. holmes. they could have done it over a telephone instruction, long-distance telephone call. mr. liebeler. well, they could have done that from the records they had in their possession, because he already had filled out a post office department instructing to forward mail from post office box to west fifth street in irving, which they had received, of course, on september ? mr. holmes. yes. mr. liebeler. well, in any event, we will add this to the pile. mr. holmes. it is an original card. mr. liebeler. let the record show mr. holmes has delivered to us the original card which has been marked as holmes exhibit no. -a. i don't think i have any other questions. i have cleared up the basic problems we had. of course, you managed to raise a few more, and i appreciate that. thank you very much. as i understand it at this point, mr. holmes, you have given to us or to the fbi, all of the papers that you found so far in your files relating to lee harvey oswald, is that correct? mr. holmes. yes; you have every original document or item that i have come in contact with in this business. mr. liebeler. between us and the fbi? mr. holmes. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. now it may be as you suggested---- mr. holmes. except ruby's. mr. liebeler. and you have given us a copy? mr. holmes. i have given you a good clear photocopy. mr. liebeler. right. if you do come across any other papers in your files---- mr. holmes. i will get in touch with martha jo [stroud, assistant u.s. attorney in dallas, tex.]. mr. liebeler. yes; let us know. thank you a lot again. testimony of buell wesley frazier the testimony of buell wesley frazier was taken at a.m., on july , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. liebeler. mr. frazier. i believe you have already appeared before the commission itself and given testimony of your knowledge of lee harvey oswald and his activities; is that right? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. will you please stand and take the oath. do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. frazier. i do. mr. liebeler. i want to ask you two or three questions that were not asked you when you appeared before the commission. your name is buell wesley frazier? mr. frazier. right. mr. liebeler. you are the same buell wesley frazier, as i understand, who has previously testified before the commission about lee harvey oswald and about how oswald rode back and forth with you from irving to dallas; isn't that right? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. i think he came with you to work on november , ? mr. frazier. right. mr. liebeler. you testified in washington that on that particular morning you saw oswald carrying a large brown package from the car into the texas school book depository building and that also you saw that package in the car; isn't that right? mr. frazier. right. mr. liebeler. and you described that package and you told us about what you saw in detail at that time? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. did you ever see oswald with the package similar to the one you saw on november , ? mr. frazier. no, sir. mr. liebeler. did you ever see oswald carry a package from irving into the texas school book depository building that looked anything like the package he had on november , ? mr. frazier. no, sir. mr. liebeler. did you ever see him with a package that looked like that package any other time or at any other place? mr. frazier. no, sir. mr. liebeler. that's all the questions i have. thank you very much for coming in. mr. frazier. all right. thank you. testimony of joe marshall smith the testimony of joe marshall smith was taken at p.m., on july , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. liebeler. would you rise and raise your right hand? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. smith. i do. mr. liebeler. please sit down. my name is wesley j. liebeler. i am an attorney on the staff of the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy. i have been authorized to take your testimony by the commission, pursuant to authority granted to it by executive order no. dated november , , and joint resolution of congress no. . under the rules of procedure, you are entitled to have an attorney present, and you are entitled to days' notice of your hearing. i know you didn't get that, because i just called you this morning, but i assume that since you are here, you are prepared to go ahead without an attorney, is that correct? mr. smith. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. would you state your full name for the record? mr. smith. joe marshall smith. mr. liebeler. what is your address? mr. smith. androck. that is in mesquite. mr. liebeler. when were you born? mr. smith. may , . mr. liebeler. where? mr. smith. kleburg, tex. mr. liebeler. would you outline briefly for us your educational background? mr. smith. yes, sir. i went to grade school in seagoville up to the second grade. then i went to houston, tex., and finished elementary school there, and then to junior high school, and through high school in houston, tex. then i went into the u.s. navy. mr. liebeler. you are presently a uniformed officer of the dallas police department? mr. smith. that's right. mr. liebeler. how long have you been with the dallas police department? mr. smith. oh, nearly years, in september it will be. mr. liebeler. during that time, you have been working basically as a uniformed officer, patrolman? mr. smith. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. have you been working in any specific type of assignment, or just what has been the nature of your work? mr. smith. well, i was in radio patrol - / years. then i went to traffic division point control, and that is what i am doing presently. mr. liebeler. i understand that you were assigned to work in the vicinity of elm and houston on november , , is that correct? mr. smith. correct. mr. liebeler. would you tell us when you first got that assignment and what you were told. mr. smith. at approximately : or o'clock that morning, november , we made detail, and capt. p. w. lawrence gave us the instructions that we were to, of course, hold the traffic up when the motorcade came through, and to assist in the crowd control, and be specifically on the lookout for anyone throwing anything from the crowd. that is about all i remember. mr. liebeler. how many officers were with you as you were instructed at the detail at : ? that means, there was a formation of something in the office? mr. smith. there was quite a few there. i don't know how many were there, but nearly the whole traffic department was there. mr. liebeler. did they all receive instructions from captain lawrence at the same time, or were they different specific instructions broken down? mr. smith. there were some broken down instructions that some of the men had to stay over to get different detail aimed to them, but that was my instructions. mr. liebeler. did you receive those instructions in writing, or delivered orally? mr. smith. delivered orally. mr. liebeler. in other words, the captain or someone working with the captain would have a list and he assigned certain men to certain places and gave them general instructions as to what they were to do; is that correct? mr. smith. that's correct. mr. liebeler. men from the department were assigned all along the motorcade route from the airport into downtown dallas; is that correct? mr. smith. correct. mr. liebeler. and other men were given instructions similar to or the same as the ones that you were given? mr. smith. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. which was to keep traffic out of the way when the motorcade was coming, and keep an open and clear route, and to engage in general crowd control activities? mr. smith. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. were there any instructions given to you men about scanning buildings? mr. smith. sir, i don't remember. it is more or less the general thing to do. i mean, just police the area. but i don't remember any specific instructions on that. mr. liebeler. now after you received your instructions at : , what did you do? mr. smith. i proceeded to the intersection of elm and houston, and it was about : or o'clock when i was on the corner there. at approximately : or o'clock, there was a white male that had an epileptic seizure on the esplanade on houston street between main and elm. well, i went down to see if any assistance was needed, and i stayed there until the white male was loaded into an ambulance and sent to a hospital. then i proceeded back to my assignment. mr. liebeler. were there any other officers there in connection with this fellow that had the epileptic fit? mr. smith. yes; there was one more. he was a radio patrolman. mr. liebeler. do you remember his name? mr. smith. i don't remember his name. i swear, i was trying to think of it before this even. mr. liebeler. he was a radio patrolman? you mean he was driving a motorcycle or had a car? mr. smith. no; he was assigned, i think, if i am not mistaken, i think he was assigned to main and houston, and he was down there with the man when i arrived at the scene. mr. liebeler. so you called an ambulance, or an ambulance was called and this man was taken away, and you went back to the corner of elm and houston streets? mr. smith. yes. mr. liebeler. how many officers were assigned at elm and houston? mr. smith. three of us. mr. liebeler. who were the other two men? mr. smith. w. e. barnett, and e. l. smith. i think that is his initials. i know it is another smith boy anyway. mr. liebeler. how did you station yourself when you got there? mr. smith. just after we got the epileptic seizure en route to the hospital, i hadn't gotten back to the corner but just a few minutes until the motorcade was coming, so i stationed myself on elm street in the middle from the southeast curb of elm and houston and held traffic up. mr. liebeler. which direction would this traffic have been coming from that you held up? mr. smith. it was heading west on elm. mr. liebeler. coming down elm toward the triple underpass? coming into the intersection of elm and houston? mr. smith. yes. mr. liebeler. so you were the individual patrolman who went back and held up the traffic to elm street; is that right? mr. smith. yes. mr. liebeler. so you would have been on the eastern side of houston street on elm street holding up the traffic that was coming down elm street? mr. smith. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. from that position, could you have observed the windows on the side of the texas school book depository building room which the shots were fired? mr. smith. yes, sir; i could see some of the windows. i couldn't see them all, but i was pretty busy getting traffic held up, and i must admit i had my back to the texas school book depository building. mr. liebeler. because you were facing traffic that was coming down elm street toward the triple underpass toward the intersection of houston street? mr. smith. right. mr. liebeler. so you had no opportunity to scan the windows of the texas school book depository building at all? mr. smith. no, sir. mr. liebeler. and you did not scan the building? mr. smith. no, sir. mr. liebeler. now did you notice anything extraordinary in the crowd as far as a crowd control is concerned? did you have any problems in that connection, or was it just a matter of holding up the traffic? mr. smith. no, sir; we didn't have any trouble with the crowd at that particular intersection. they stayed back pretty well as they were told, and i got all the cars stopped, so i thought we had it made. mr. liebeler. i show you a picture, an aerial view of the area that is marked commission exhibit no. . could you locate the texas school book depository building in there? mr. smith. yes, sir; it should be right there. mr. liebeler. yes; that is it on the left-hand side of the picture, and of course, the intersection of elm and houston is right off opposite the corner there, right at the corner of the texas school book depository building, and you were standing to the east? mr. smith. yes, sir; right here. mr. liebeler. of houston? mr. smith. right along in this area. mr. liebeler. there is, in fact, a picture of a car stopped there right at the intersection of elm and houston, and you had been standing back in the vicinity of the automobile? mr. smith. just about the middle of elm street here. mr. liebeler. i will put the no. in a circle on the spot of approximately where you were standing at the time the motorcade went by. is that approximately correct? mr. smith. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. you were facing east up elm street away from the triple underpass? mr. smith. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. so that your back was in fact turned to the school book depository building? mr. smith. yes. mr. liebeler. now there are two or three other buildings here in the immediate vicinity as you are facing east on elm street. there is a building on your left, which is directly across houston street from the school book depository building. do you know what building that is? mr. smith. i know, but i can't remember now. mr. liebeler. did you observe any activity in any of the windows of that building? mr. smith. no, sir; i didn't. mr. liebeler. did you have occasion to look to the windows of that building at any time when the motorcade came by? that would be the building to your left. mr. smith. yes, sir. i don't recall, but i know that i must have, because i was trying to keep all the crowd in sight that was around. i know that i must have glanced at it, but i don't recall seeing anything unusual. mr. liebeler. what about the building across elm street on your right? that is the county building? mr. smith. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. there are a series of windows in that building facing the triple underpass. could you observe those windows from the point where you were standing? mr. smith. no, sir; not where i could tell whether they were open or closed. mr. liebeler. because you were standing too far up elm street to have a good vantage point from which to observe these windows? mr. smith. i mean on houston street. mr. liebeler. that is what i mean. mr. smith. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. you wouldn't have been able to see the windows of the building that is down on the intersection of main and houston streets at all from where you were standing? mr. smith. no. mr. liebeler. if you could have seen, it would have been with great difficulty, so you weren't in position to observe those windows, and you didn't in fact observe them, is that correct? mr. smith. correct. mr. liebeler. while you were standing here and the motorcade went by, tell us what happened at that point. mr. smith. i heard the shots. mr. liebeler. did you turn to watch the motorcade? did you turn to watch the president as the motorcade went by? mr. smith. yes, sir; i glanced around and was watching the crowd to make sure they stayed back out of the way of the motorcade, and also to make sure none of the cars started up or anything. then i heard the shots, and i immediately proceeded from this point. mr. liebeler. point on commission exhibit no. ? mr. smith. i started up toward this book depository after i heard the shots, and i didn't know where the shots came from. i had no idea, because it was such a ricochet. mr. liebeler. an echo effect? mr. smith. yes, sir; and this woman came up to me and she was just in hysterics. she told me, "they are shooting the president from the bushes." so i immediately proceeded up here. mr. liebeler. you proceeded up to an area immediately behind the concrete structure here that is described by elm street and the street that runs immediately in front of the texas school book depository, is that right? mr. smith. i was checking all the bushes and i checked all the cars in the parking lot. mr. liebeler. there is a parking lot in behind this grassy area back from elm street toward the railroad tracks, and you went down to the parking lot and looked around? mr. smith. yes, sir; i checked all the cars. i looked into all the cars and checked around the bushes. of course, i wasn't alone. there was some deputy sheriff with me, and i believe one secret service man when i got there. i got to make this statement, too. i felt awfully silly, but after the shot and this woman, i pulled my pistol from my holster, and i thought, this is silly, i don't know who i am looking for, and i put it back. just as i did, he showed me that he was a secret service agent. mr. liebeler. did you accost this man? mr. smith. well, he saw me coming with my pistol and right away he showed me who he was. mr. liebeler. do you remember who it was? mr. smith. no, sir; i don't--because then we started checking the cars. in fact, i was checking the bushes, and i went through the cars, and i started over here in this particular section. mr. liebeler. down toward the railroad tracks where they go over the triple underpass? mr. smith. yes. mr. liebeler. did you have any basis for believing where the shots came from, or where to look for somebody, other than what the lady told you? mr. smith. no, sir; except that maybe it was a power of suggestion. but it sounded to me like they may have came from this vicinity here. mr. liebeler. down around the--let's put a no. there at the corner here behind this concrete structure where the bushes were down toward the railroad tracks from the texas school book depository building on the little street that runs down in front of the texas school book depository building. mr. smith. yes. mr. liebeler. now you say that you had the idea that the shots may have come from up in that area? mr. smith. yes, sir; that is just what, well, like i say, the sound of it. that was the most helpless and hopeless feeling i ever had. mr. liebeler. well, you mentioned before there was an echo from the shots in the area. mr. smith. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. probably caused by the fact that there are some large buildings around the area where the shots were fired from? mr. smith. yes. mr. liebeler. now did you at any time have occasion to look up to the railroad tracks that went across the triple underpass? mr. smith. yes, sir; i looked up there after i was going up to check there. mr. liebeler. you didn't have any occasion to look up there before you heard the shots? mr. smith. no, sir. mr. liebeler. after you heard the shots, you proceeded down along the bushes here between the street that runs in front of the texas school book depository building and elm street to approximately point , and then when you went down looking to the cars, you then had occasion to look up at the railroad tracks running over the triple underpass? mr. smith. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. did you see anybody up there? mr. smith. yes, sir; there was two other officers there, i know. mr. liebeler. were there any other people up there, that you can remember? mr. smith. no, sir; none that i remember. mr. liebeler. but you remember that there were two police officers up there? mr. smith. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. now you searched these cars in this parking lot area down there by the railroad tracks on from point down toward the main railroad tracks that cross over the triple underpass. did you find anything that you could associate in any way with the assassination? mr. smith. no, sir. mr. liebeler. how long did you remain down in that area? mr. smith. oh, i would say approximately to minutes. mr. liebeler. during that time, you continued searching through automobiles and searching the general area in the parking lot back there; is that right? mr. smith. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. what did you do after you had searched this area? mr. smith. well, it was, i don't remember whether this was a deputy sheriff--i don't know his name--he was in civilian clothes--he said they came from the building up here. and by that time, of course, all the police around there sealed the building off, and i went to the front door here on the, well, you might say, the houston street side. i and barnett, and we sealed the front door and didn't let anyone in or out until he was passed by the chief. mr. liebeler. let me ask you this. before you went up to the school book depository building, am i correct in understanding that you did thoroughly search the area of the parking lot, you and the other officers? mr. smith. well, now, i didn't go into all the cars. i looked into them, and i was well satisfied in my mind that he wasn't around there. some of the cars were locked, and i just looked into all of them around there, and i went back to the building. mr. liebeler. who gave you instructions to go to the front door of that building, do you remember? mr. smith. i believe it was sergeant howard. mr. liebeler. sergeant howard? mr. smith. sergeant howard, or sergeant harkness. mr. liebeler. so to the best of your recollection, it was one of those two men? mr. smith. yes, sir. wait--let's strike that. no; it wasn't. it was chief lumpkin give us the direct order, i and barnett, not to let anyone in or out of that building; that's right--deputy chief lumpkin. mr. liebeler. where did you see him in order to receive that order? mr. smith. i started back up here to the building, and we were just about at the front door when he contacted me and barnett then. mr. liebeler. he instructed you and barnett to stand at the front door and not let anyone in or out? mr. smith. right. mr. liebeler. do you know approximately what time that was? mr. smith. no, sir; it must have been about . it was after o'clock. i don't remember; no. mr. liebeler. how long did you and barnett remain there at the front door? mr. smith. until about : ; i think i got off there. mr. liebeler. did you at any time go into the building? mr. smith. no, sir. mr. liebeler. do you know whether other men were assigned to watch the back door? mr. smith. no, sir; i don't know. i am quite certain there was. mr. liebeler. but you had no personal knowledge of it at the time? mr. smith. no, sir. mr. liebeler. because you were assigned to the front door, and that is where you stayed? mr. smith. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. in fact, did you let anybody in or out of the building? mr. smith. well, now, we let police officers in, of course, and firemen. mr. liebeler. the firemen came into the building? mr. smith. yes, sir; there was something on that that they had to get some--what was that, i don't recall what it was that they come in there for now. mr. liebeler. there were some firemen from the dallas fire department that went into the building? mr. smith. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. did they come back to the front door? mr. smith. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. how about secret service; were there any secret service agents around? mr. smith. i don't know, sir. mr. liebeler. do you know agent sorrels, the agent in charge of the dallas office of the secret service? mr. smith. i saw him a few minutes, but i don't know him personally. mr. liebeler. do you remember seeing him around that day? mr. smith. no, sir; i don't remember. mr. liebeler. did you at any time see lee harvey oswald come in or out of the building, or in the area at all? mr. smith. no, sir. mr. liebeler. is there anything that happened while you were standing there with barnett at the front door that you think would be of significance that the commission should know about that i haven't asked you about? mr. smith. no, sir; i don't. mr. liebeler. you just maintained the general guard duty there and only let the police officers and fire department in, and you don't have any specific recollection as to secret service agents. how about fbi agents; were there some of those? mr. smith. yes, sir; there were fbi agents. mr. liebeler. you let them go in? mr. smith. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. do you remember any specific fbi agents that were there? mr. smith. no, sir; i don't remember any of the names. mr. liebeler. who finally relieved you from that particular duty post? mr. smith. let me think here a minute now. chief lumpkin, i know--i don't recall who the officer was. mr. liebeler. i don't think it is of any particular importance if you can't recall. what did you do after you were finally relieved? mr. smith. i don't know if this is of significance either, but they had set up, the salvation army had some coffee and i had a cup of coffee and proceeded on back to the mercantile bank. i had an extra job there that evening. mr. liebeler. you were relieved from your duty post? mr. smith. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. and went on about your own personal affairs? mr. smith. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. did you conduct any additional investigation or have anything to do with the investigation of the assassination after that? mr. smith. no, sir. mr. liebeler. did you know officer tippit? mr. smith. remotely. i didn't know him real well. just knew him when i saw him. mr. liebeler. when did you first hear about oswald's capture? mr. smith. it was after i left my post. mr. liebeler. after you left your post? mr. smith. yes; in fact, just before i got off from working at the bank. just before o'clock. a squad of detectives, i don't recall their names, but they told me they got a man over at the texas theatre that they thought might have been the one. mr. liebeler. after you heard the shots and went from point on commission exhibit no. down to point searching the bushy area here, did you have any occasion to look up in the windows of any of the buildings surrounding the intersection of elm and houston streets? mr. smith. no, sir; i was--pardon the expression--beating the bushes and checking the cars. mr. liebeler. so you never saw anything in any of those windows at all? mr. smith. no, sir. mr. liebeler. are you familiar with the traffic patterns on these three streets here, commerce, main, and elm streets, as they go down under the triple underpass? mr. smith. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. the motorcade came down main street from the east to the intersection of main street and houston, did it not? mr. smith. yes; headed west on main. mr. liebeler. yes; and it turned right on houston street and then turned left on elm and was headed toward the triple underpass when the assassination occurred. what would have prevented the motorcade from going directly down main street under the triple underpass, remembering now that the motorcade wanted to go onto stemmons freeway? mr. smith. i don't know, sir. mr. liebeler. now, could you have gone straight down main street and gotten onto stemmons freeway down here? mr. smith. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. where the three streets go under the triple overpass, there is a concrete barrier between elm street and main street; is there not? mr. smith. what do you mean? mr. liebeler. where the streets actually go under the railroad tracks here. mr. smith. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. now where is the entrance as we go off, as we see the three streets going off the picture here, commission exhibit no. ? where is the entrance to the stemmons freeway? mr. smith. it is back off. mr. liebeler. it is not shown on the picture? mr. smith. no, sir; it is back off here. mr. liebeler. to go down stemmons expressway or freeway towards the trade mart, you would have to turn how? would you turn to your right? mr. smith. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. now could you have actually gone off to the right and crossed over elm street if you had been on main street and gone under the triple underpass? mr. smith. they merge. mr. liebeler. they all merge together down there? mr. smith. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. so as far as you know, there was no reason why the motorcade couldn't have gone straight down elm street and gone on to the stemmons freeway headed for the trade mart? mr. smith. as far as i know, there is no reason. mr. liebeler. is it possible that as you come down main street, if you stayed directly on main street going under the triple underpass, that you might have difficulty in making the turn with a big car from main street to go onto stemmons freeway? mr. smith. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. i don't think i have any more questions about the situation, unless you can think of something else that you might have seen or observed that day that i haven't asked you about that you think the commission should know. mr. smith. sir, i just can't think of anything else. mr. liebeler. i want to thank you very much for coming over. i appreciate your cooperation. mr. smith. yes, sir; thank you. testimony of welcome eugene barnett the testimony of welcome eugene barnett was taken at : p.m., on july , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. liebeler. before you sit down, will you raise your right hand? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. barnett. i do. mr. liebeler. please sit down. my name is wesley j. liebeler. i am an attorney for the president's commission investigating the assassination of president kennedy. i have been authorized to take your testimony by the commission, pursuant to authority granted to it by executive order dated november , , and joint resolution of congress no. . pursuant to the rules of the commission governing the taking of testimony, you are entitled to have an attorney present if you want one, and you are entitled to days' notice of the hearing. i know you did not get the days' notice because of schedule difficulties that we had, and you were just advised of it this morning, i believe. i assume, however, that since you are here, that you are prepared to go ahead with your testimony without having an attorney. mr. barnett. yes. mr. liebeler. would you state your full name for the record? mr. barnett. welcome eugene barnett. mr. liebeler. when and where were you born? mr. barnett. july , , new hope, tex. mr. liebeler. you are apparently a uniformed officer of the dallas police department, isn't that right? mr. barnett. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. how long have you been in the dallas police? mr. barnett. eight and a half years. mr. liebeler. it is my understanding that you were assigned to the area of elm and houston streets on november , ; is that correct? mr. barnett. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. would you tell us how you received instructions to go there, when you received them, what you were told, and what happened? would you tell us what happened on that day, in other words? mr. barnett. we made detail around o'clock. we were instructed to be at our assignments at . we were given our assignments, each one was given an assignment, and i was told to watch the crowd, watch for people throwing stuff from the crowd at the president's party, to keep the traffic clear, and to stop the traffic when the president came by. then when the president came by, i heard three shots. mr. liebeler. now, going back, you got to the area around o'clock; is that right? mr. barnett. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. where did you go when you got there? mr. barnett. well, there were three of us assigned to that one corner. mr. liebeler. who were the other officers? mr. barnett. who were the other officers? mr. liebeler. yes. mr. barnett. j. d. smith, and another officer named smith. i don't know his initials. e. l., i believe. mr. liebeler. did you divide your duties among yourselves when you got there, or had you been specifically instructed as to what each one was supposed to do? mr. barnett. we divided our duties. mr. liebeler. how did you do that? mr. barnett. well, as best i remember, we each picked a corner and got on the corner. we were advised to stay on our corner, not to cross over to idly talk, but to stay on the corner and keep our eyes open and be ready. mr. liebeler. which corner did you station yourself at? i have a picture here of an aerial view--you can sit down--commission exhibit no. . of course, you can recognize the intersection of elm and houston here in the left-hand upper portion of the picture; can you not? mr. barnett. i was right here. mr. liebeler. at no. ? mr. barnett. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. did you remain there at all times from o'clock until the motorcade arrived? mr. barnett. yes; well, of course, i was here until we got word to stop the traffic, and i stepped out of this position here. i had to stop traffic from houston here and help the other officers stop it on elm, and stop this traffic on this small street that goes in front of the depository building. mr. liebeler. when the motorcade actually came, you moved over pretty much into houston street? mr. barnett. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. to stop the traffic that was coming? mr. barnett. south on houston street. mr. liebeler. south on houston street? mr. barnett. yes, sir; elm street is so wide, and i helped these officers here stop this traffic here. mr. liebeler. we have written the no. on here before and it is kind of hard to read. you also helped to stop the traffic that was coming down here in the area of no. , which would have been the traffic on elm street? mr. barnett. yes, sir; i was standing right about this position right here. mr. liebeler. right about no. ? mr. barnett. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. now specifically, were you given any instructions when you left that morning when you made detail, to observe and scan the windows of the buildings around that area? mr. barnett. no, sir; we weren't, but that is just one thing you always do. it is understood that you have the buildings to watch. mr. liebeler. but there were no specific instructions given to any of the officers, so far as you know, when they left that morning, about watching the windows in the area? mr. barnett. i don't see any use in being instructed on that. mr. liebeler. well, regardless of that fact---- mr. barnett. there was no instructions; no. mr. liebeler. now from where you were standing at position prior to the motorcade's arrival, you were in a position to view the windows on the entire south side of the texas school book depository building; were you not? mr. barnett. yes. mr. liebeler. did you look up at those windows? mr. barnett. yes. mr. liebeler. how many times did you look up at those windows before the motorcade came? can you tell us with what frequency? mr. barnett. i looked up twice. maybe once at , probably a few minutes after --probably a few minutes after . it was raining part of the morning, and when i found out that the people in the building were going to come outside and watch the president, i looked up at the building, and then i looked at all the buildings, and there were no windows that i noticed open then. but after a few minutes before the president came by, i didn't look any more. i started watching the crowd. mr. liebeler. so just before the motorcade approached, you moved over and also stopped the automobile traffic and were observing the crowd, so you did not look at the windows on or about the time the motorcade came? mr. barnett. i couldn't. i was too busy. [referring to picture.] i got this in the wrong place. it needs to be about this position right here, instead of here. i was right here. i got it too far, but i could see the president's car from the position i was, so i had to be right here [pointing]. mr. liebeler. you are satisfied you were further out into the intersection? mr. barnett. right there [indicating]. mr. liebeler. [marking]. in the general vicinity of no. ? mr. barnett. yes, sir; the car passed within a few feet of me, and i was holding some people, or seeing that they stayed back, and one small boy started. i was afraid he was going to get too close and i stopped him. mr. liebeler. now the motorcade made the turn onto elm street from houston street, and you were standing at approximately in position no. , and you indicated before that you heard the shots fired: is that right? mr. barnett. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. how many shots did you hear? mr. barnett. three. mr. liebeler. was there any echo in the area from where you were standing? mr. barnett. what do you mean by echo? you mean another sound besides the shots? mr. liebeler. yes. mr. barnett. no; i didn't hear any echo. the whole sound echoed. the sound lingered, but as far as just two definite distinct sounds, when each shot was fired, that one sound would linger in the air, but there would be nothing else until the next shot. mr. liebeler. did you see any of the shots hit the president? mr. barnett. well, when the first shot--i was looking at the president when the first shot was fired, and i thought i saw him slump down, but i am not sure, and i didn't look any more then. i thought he was ducking then. mr. liebeler. now when you were standing up there in position no. , you were in a spot where you could look right down elm street and see the railroad tracks down here which pass over the triple underpass? mr. barnett. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. did you see anybody on the railroad tracks? mr. barnett. one or two officers. two officers, i believe. mr. liebeler. was there anybody else, as far as you can recall? mr. barnett. that is all i saw. mr. liebeler. did you have an opinion when you heard the shots as to where they came from? mr. barnett. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. what did you think about them? mr. barnett. when the first shot was fired, i thought it was a firecracker, and i looked across the street. in fact, i scanned the whole area to see where people would jump or move or make some action. mr. liebeler. you couldn't tell specifically where it had come from? mr. barnett. not the first one, but i thought it was a firecracker. but none of the people moved or took any action, whereas they would have if a firecracker went off. and when the second shot was fired, it sounded high. the sound of the second one seemed to me like it was coming from up high, and i looked up at the building and i saw nothing in the windows. in fact, i couldn't even see any windows at that time. mr. liebeler. in the texas school book depository? mr. barnett. no, sir; because i was standing too close, was the reason. and i looked back again at the crowd, and the third shot was fired. and i looked up again, and i decided it had to be on top of that building. to me, it is the only place the sound could be coming from. mr. liebeler. what did you do when you concluded that the shots were coming from that building? mr. barnett. i ran to the back of the building. mr. liebeler. ran down houston street? mr. barnett. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. there is a door in the back of the texas school book depository. does it face on houston or around the corner? mr. barnett. it is around the corner from houston street. mr. liebeler. did you go in the building? mr. barnett. no, sir; i didn't get close to it, because i was watching for a fire escape. if the man was on top, he would have to come down, and i was looking for a fire escape, and i didn't pay much attention to the door. i was still watching the top of the building, and so far as i could see, the fire escape on the east side was the only escape down. mr. liebeler. since you surmised that the shots had come from the building, you looked up and you didn't see any windows open. you thought they had been fired from the top of the building? mr. barnett. that's right. mr. liebeler. so you ran around here on houston street immediately to the east of the texas school book depository building and watched the fire escape? mr. barnett. i went foot past the building still on houston, looking up. i could see the whole back of the building and also the east side of the building. mr. liebeler. did you see anybody coming off the fire escape up there, or any movement on top of the building? mr. barnett. not a thing. mr. liebeler. what did you do after you went around behind the building? mr. barnett. i looked behind the building and i saw officers searching the railroad cars. i looked around in front towards the front of the building and i saw officers going west. mr. liebeler. going west down that little street there in front of the school book depository building? mr. barnett. yes; but there was no sign they were going into the building or watching the building, so i decided i was the only one watching the building. so since this was the only fire escape and there was officers down here watching this back door, i returned back around to the front to watch the front of the building and the fire escape. then i decided maybe i had been wrong, so i saw the officers down here searching. mr. liebeler. you mean the officers went on down toward no. on our exhibit no. ? mr. barnett. when i got to the front, some of the officers were coming back toward me, started back toward me. mr. liebeler. you were still back near the intersection of elm and houston? mr. barnett. yes, sir; i was back where no. is then. that was probably - / minutes after the last shot was fired. about that time, my sergeant came up from this way, from the north of houston street and asked me to get the name of that building. i broke and ran to the front and got the name of it. there were people going in and out at that time. i ran back and told him the name of it, and about that time a construction worker ran from this southwest corner of the intersection up to me and said, "i was standing over there and saw the man in the window with the rifle." he and i and the sergeant all three broke and ran for the door. i kept the man there with me. the sergeant ran to the back to make sure it was covered. i kept the man there until they took him across the street to the courthouse. i was there until o'clock, at the door there with one of the other officers, j. d. smith. mr. liebeler. you didn't actually go into the building at the time? mr. barnett. no. mr. liebeler. how long do you think it was from the time the last shot was fired until the time you were at the front door keeping people from going in and out? mr. barnett. it was around - / minutes. maybe between - / or minutes. mr. liebeler. from the time the last shot was fired until the time you were standing at that front door? mr. barnett. yes. mr. liebeler. did you let anybody out of the building after you got there? mr. barnett. no, sir; until they were authorized. mr. liebeler. who was in a position to authorize people to come in and out? mr. barnett. well, of course, for sometime no one left except city, county, and federal officers, and then after the people in the building were took into the small room there and questioned, they were brought to the door by a lieutenant, which i don't remember his name, but that was sometime after, and he brought them to the door and told us to let them out. mr. liebeler. now, it was possible that people could have left the building between the time the last shot was fired and the time you and officer smith stationed yourselves there? mr. barnett. when i went to the door to get the name of the building, there were people going in and out then. mr. liebeler. there were? mr. barnett. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. do you think it was as quickly as - / minutes from the time the last shot was fired until the time you got to the front door? do you think it was that quick? mr. barnett. i believe it was - / minutes probably from the time i ran from the back to the front. that was probably - / minutes. then it took me or more seconds before i got to the front there. mr. liebeler. so your recollection is that it was fairly short order that you got to the front door? mr. barnett. three minutes at the most. mr. liebeler. now who was the one sergeant who instructed you to post yourself there at the door, or was it somebody else? mr. barnett. sergeant howard. mr. liebeler. you remained there at the door for how long? mr. barnett. until o'clock. close to : to --close to : to . mr. liebeler. at which time you were relieved from duty? mr. barnett. yes, sir; from that position i had to go back to my regular assignment at commerce and akard. mr. liebeler. did you notice oswald around that area at anytime? mr. barnett. no, sir. mr. liebeler. later on you saw his picture in the paper and, of course, on television? mr. barnett. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. you had no recollection of seeing him in the area at all? mr. barnett. none whatsoever. there were hundreds of people in that intersection. mr. liebeler. have you ever talked to any other officer in the department that remembers seeing him in the area at all? mr. barnett. no; i haven't. mr. liebeler. have you heard of anybody that saw him there at the time? mr. barnett. well, of course, i heard other officers that went up in the building and talked to him. mr. liebeler. officer baker was one? mr. barnett. i haven't talked to the officer. mr. liebeler. so you were pretty sure fairly quickly that the shots had come from the texas school book depository? mr. barnett. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. there was no notion in your mind that they could have come from these railroad tracks down here around the triple underpass? mr. barnett. to me, it is impossible. mr. liebeler. from the sound of the shots? mr. barnett. the sounds were high, and if it was down here, it wouldn't echo. it would be a low sound. for a shot to echo, it has to be high up. mr. liebeler. you mean to hang? mr. barnett. to hang like that. mr. liebeler. now there were altogether three policemen assigned to the corner of elm and houston; is that right? mr. barnett. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. were there any other men assigned down the length of elm street here, that you know? mr. barnett. not that i know of. there were no men stationed permanently there. mr. liebeler. the responsibility of control in that area would have been the job of the motorcycle riders and the secret service men? mr. barnett. that's right. mr. liebeler. are there any general orders that are issued to police officers in regard to the scanning of windows when motorcades go by and that sort of thing? mr. barnett. well, in our training, we are told to scan windows, among lots of things. look on top of buildings, windows, cars, but, of course, these things you are taught from the beginning. you don't have to be reminded of it every day. that is what you are taught to do, and it would take too long to remind us of everything they are supposed to do. mr. liebeler. every time you went out on an assignment? mr. barnett. yes, sir; it would be impossible. that is why you are trained for a job. mr. liebeler. can you think of anything else that you saw or heard on that day that you haven't told us about now, that you think we would be interested in? mr. barnett. no, sir; i believe that is all. mr. liebeler. thank you very much, officer, for coming in. we appreciate your cooperation. mr. barnett. you are welcome. testimony of eddy raymond walthers the testimony of eddy raymond walthers was taken at : p.m., on july , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. liebeler. my name is wesley j. liebeler, [spelling] l-i-e-b-e-l-e-r, and i am an attorney on the staff of the president's commission investigating the assassination of president kennedy. i have been authorized to take your testimony by the commission pursuant to authority granted to it by executive order , dated november , , and joint resolution of congress . pursuant to the rules of the commission covering the taking of testimony, you are entitled to have an attorney present and you are entitled to days' notice of your hearing. i know you didn't get the days' notice of your hearing, but that can be waived by the witness and i assume that since you are here you are prepared to proceed and that we may proceed without your attorney being present? mr. walthers. yes. mr. liebeler. will you stand and take the oath, please? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. walthers. i do. mr. liebeler. will you state your name, please? mr. walthers. eddy raymond walthers. mr. liebeler. when and where were you born? mr. walthers. i was born here in dallas county in on july . mr. liebeler. where do you live? mr. walthers. i live at boyd street in dallas. mr. liebeler. are you presently a deputy sheriff in dallas county, tex.? mr. walthers. yes. mr. liebeler. how long have you been a deputy sheriff? mr. walthers. about years. mr. liebeler. i understand that you were in or about the area of the texas school book depository building on november , ; is that correct? mr. walthers. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. how did you come to be there at that time? mr. walthers. i was standing in front of the sheriff's office on main street and close to houston with mrs. decker watching the parade. mr. liebeler. now, there is a building right there at the corner of elm street and houston street, what has been referred to as the county building; is that right? mr. walthers. i was standing right here. mr. liebeler. you were standing over on main street just east of the intersection of main street and houston; is that correct? mr. walthers. yes; just between the two buildings. mr. liebeler. were you standing there when the motorcade came down? mr. walthers. yes. mr. liebeler. and you stood there and watched the motorcade go by? mr. walthers. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. were you acting in any official capacity at that time? mr. walthers. i was a deputy sheriff--i was on duty and had stopped there with mrs. decker to watch the parade go by. mr. liebeler. you didn't have any specific assignment in connection with the motorcade or the president or anything like that? mr. walthers. no, sir. mr. liebeler. the motorcade came down main street and made a wide turn into houston street and went back down elm street; isn't that right? mr. walthers. yes. mr. liebeler. after the motorcade turned onto houston street, what did you do? mr. walthers. after it turned onto houston and most of the motorcade went by, i turned to talk to mrs. decker and asked her if she was ready to go back inside and i proceeded to help her back up the steps and then we heard the shots. mr. liebeler. you actually were still standing over on main street around the corner from houston street when you heard the shots? mr. walthers. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. you actually didn't see any of the shots take effect or anything like that? mr. walthers. no. mr. liebeler. how many shots did you hear? mr. walthers. i remember three shots. mr. liebeler. are you clear about that? mr. walthers. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. what did you do after you heard the shots? mr. walthers. well, i was facing her and i told her that sounded like a rifle and i ran across here [indicating] and there is a wall along in here and i hopped over it. mr. liebeler. you mean you ran across houston street and jumped over the wall and back into dealey plaza there? mr. walthers. people were laying down on this grass--women and men were laying on top of their children on the grass. mr. liebeler. on either side of main street? mr. walthers. yes; and then someone, i don't know, i say someone--a lot of people was sitting there--but it must have been behind that fence--there's a fence right along here---- mr. liebeler. you are referring to the area immediately behind the no. that appears on commission exhibit no. --there is a concrete structure there of some sort. mr. walthers. it don't show on this, but since this picture was made, there's a fence--it may be there--it's a solid board fence along here. mr. liebeler. running along behind the concrete structure that faces elm street and is no. on commission exhibit no. ? mr. walthers. and at that time i heard the shots as well as everybody else, but as we got over this fence, and a lot of officers and people were just rummaging through the train yards back in this parking area. mr. liebeler. in the parking area down there? west of the texas school book depository building between the texas school book depository and the railroad tracks? mr. walthers. yes; and the discussion came up among several of the officers, were there any shots fired? and i said, "well, they sounded like rifle shots to me." at the time no one knew--in our crowd they were sure the shots had been fired though because of the reports--we heard the noise, and i left then and went back up here and came back onto the street. mr. liebeler. up on elm street? mr. walthers. and went over on this grassy area right in here [indicating]. mr. liebeler. between elm street and main street? mr. walthers. between elm and main and starting to looking at the grass to see if some shots had been fired and some of them might have chugged into this turf here and it would give an indication if some had really been, if they were really shots and not just blanks or something, and a man, and i couldn't tell you his name if my life depended on it--he had a car parked right here in main street--in the main street lane headed east, just under this underpass. mr. liebeler. down at the point marked no. of the exhibit we are talking about; is that right? mr. walthers. that's right--in this lane here and his car was just partially sticking out parked there and he came up to me and asked me, he said, "are you looking to see where some bullets may have struck?" and i said, "yes." he says, "i was standing over by the bank here, right there where my car is parked when those shots happened," and he said, "i don't know where they came from, or if they were shots, but something struck me on the face," and he said, "it didn't make any scratch or cut and it just was a sting," and so i had him show me right where he was standing and i started to search in that immediate area and found a place on the curb there in the main street lane there close to the underpass where a projectile had struck that curb. mr. liebeler. would you remember that man's name if i told you or if i reminded you of it? mr. walthers. i'm sorry--i don't know if i would remember it or not. mr. liebeler. there is a man by the name of jim tague [spelling], t-a-g-u-e, who works as an automobile salesman. mr. walthers. i remember he had a gray automobile--i remember that very well. mr. liebeler. i think it must have been mr. tague because he was in here this afternoon and he told me his car was parked right there at no. and that's when i put the mark on the exhibit and he walked up there and talked to a deputy sheriff and he looked at the curb. mr. walthers. yes; this was pure ignorance on my part in not getting his name--i don't know--but i didn't. mr. liebeler. i think it is pretty clear it was mr. tague, because his testimony he gave today jibed with yours and it couldn't have been anybody else and he had a cut and some blood on his face. mr. walthers. well, at the time i wasn't interested in whether he was cut or what, i just said, "where were you standing?" in an effort to prove there was some shots fired, and after seeing the way it struck the curb at an angle--which it came down on the curb--it was almost obvious that it either came from this building or this building [indicating] the angle it struck the curb at. mr. liebeler. when you say this building or this building you are talking about the school book depository building or the building immediately east thereof, across houston street? mr. walthers. yes; and i ran right then back up along in here and that would be right at the corner of elm and houston, where i ran into one of our deputies, allan sweatt, and told him--everybody still at this time was just--i don't know what you would call it--just running around in circles you might say, and i told him, i said, "a bullet struck that curb. it's fresh--you can see a fresh ricochet where it had struck," and i said, "from the looks of it, it's probably going to be in this school book building," and immediately then everybody started surrounding the school book building and then i got off and come up the street here that runs in front of the school book depository building and started gathering up a bunch of witnesses and started taking them over and put them in our office so we could get some statements before they got all jumbled up together with their stories. i continued to take witnesses across the street here and locked them up and got our secretaries to start taking depositions from them before they had a chance to get their stories messed up, and i don't remember who it was now that came--as i was coming out the back door of the jail, out of the office building here and said an officer had been killed in oak cliff and there wasn't anybody over there, everybody was down here, and i got a couple of our civil deputies and put them in a car and went to oak cliff, and left all this area where the shooting was--where the shooting had taken place--and just at the time i reached zangs and jefferson in oak cliff, i had a little transistor radio in my car, and that's the first time i knew the president was actually shot. they announced the fact that he was actually dead on the citizens radio and immediately after that we got a call that a suspect that was supposed to have shot officer tippit was in the library building on marsalis and jefferson, and everybody that had made it to oak cliff then went to that library and we bailed out and surrounded it and found out that it was no good. it was not the suspect, and then we got back in the car and got the call to go to the texas theatre, that the suspect was in the balcony of the texas theatre on jefferson, and i parked there just east of the entrance and out in the traffic lane, and i had a sawed off shotgun that i took with me inside the building and went up the steps to the landing there and got hold of the manager and asked him to turn on the house lights, and he said, "i'll go get some flashlights." i said, "no, you can turn on the house lights, we're looking for a man," and i went on into the balcony and there wasn't anybody in the balcony. it was vacant. i ran to the rail then and looked downstairs and the house lights had just came on and it wasn't too bright, even with them on, and we seen some confusion down in the center section close to the back of the center section of the seats and i hollered to another bunch of officers that were still pouring in the balcony, "he must be downstairs," or, "he is downstairs," or something to that effect and i ran back down the steps then and i laid my shotgun down there across a couple of seats there and went into the aisle where a scuffle was taking place and seen two hands wrapped around a pistol. like i say, it was dark even above the seats and down between the seats it was pretty much of a mess to tell what was really happening. mr. liebeler. this man that had both hands up was down there between the seats? mr. walthers. well, there were two different hands wrapped around the gun holding onto it. mr. liebeler. two different people fighting for it? mr. walthers. yes; and there were a lot of officers jumping over the seats coming back to where it was happening, and mr. b. k. carroll that works up at the city was coming right in on the same row i was in from the opposite side facing me and i grabbed ahold of the hands that had the gun and about that time two or three other officers piled into the scuffle there in between the seats and i was real sure it was carroll that got the pistol out of his hands, or pulled it away from the hands and then some uniformed officers just gathered this boy that turned out to be oswald up in a bunch, you might say, and i picked my shotgun up and mr. mcdonald, i remember seeing him pick his hat up off of the floor and standing over at the edge of everything and dusting his hat off when we got ready to come out with him, and i got the shotgun, and a lot of people had congregated out in front of the show and there's kind of an island there that goes all the way out into the street and people were all over it and i had gotten the shotgun and turned it sideways like a battering ram to get through and they were all raising hell and cussing and saying what they wanted to do, "let us have him," and they wadded him up in the car and left with him, and then i got in my car and somewhere in the shuffle i lost the two officers i had with me--i don't remember how they got back to the station, but i remember leaving them--i couldn't find them, so i went on back to the station then and mr. decker gave me an address on a little piece of paper--i thought i could remember the address in irving where this oswald had been staying with mrs. paine. mr. liebeler. was it west fifth? mr. walthers. i believe it was-- th or th. mr. liebeler. i believe it was fifth. mr. walthers. yes; and i took our officer, harry weatherford, and we met officer adamcik that works for the city and officer rose and another one of their officers, but i don't recall his name right now--at this address in irving and when we went to the door, what turned out to be mrs. paine--just as soon as we stepped on the porch, she said, "come on in, we've been expecting you," and we didn't have any trouble at all--we just went right on in and started asking her--at that time it didn't appear that her or mrs. oswald, or marina, who came up carrying one of the babies in the living room--it didn't appear that they knew that oswald had been arrested at all--the way they talked. mr. liebeler. how do you account for the fact that mrs. paine said, "come on in, we've been expecting you?" mr. walthers. i don't know--to this day, i don't know. mr. liebeler. are you sure that's what she said? mr. walthers. i know that's what she said. mr. liebeler. mrs. paine said that? mr. walthers. yes, sir; she said, "come on in, we have been expecting you." mr. liebeler. was there anybody else there that heard her say that? mr. walthers. i imagine all the officers on the porch did. i know rose was trying to show her his credentials and she just pushed the screen open and said, come on in. now, after we got inside and we were making a search of the house with their permission, they had no objection whatsoever. mrs. oswald couldn't speak much english and mr. rose was doing most of the questioning, the city officer. we were just--not actually knowing what we were looking for, just searching, and we went into the garage there and found this--i believe it was one of these things like soap comes in, a big pasteboard barrel and it had a lot of these little leaflets in it, "freedom for cuba" and they were gold color with black printing on them, and we found those and we also found a gray blanket with some red trim on it that had a string tied at one end that you could see the imprint of a gun, i mean where it had been wrapped in it. mr. liebeler. you could really see the imprint of the gun? mr. walthers. you could see where it had been--it wasn't completely untied--one end had been untied and the other end had been left tied, that would be around the barrel and you could see where the gun had rested on the inside of it. mr. liebeler. you mean by that, you could tell that from the way the thing had been tied? mr. walthers. you could tell it from the way it was tied and the impression of where that barrel went up in it where it was tied, that a rifle had been tied in it, but what kind--you couldn't tell, but you could tell a rifle had been wrapped up in it, and then we found some little metal file cabinets--i don't know what kind you would call them--they would carry an by folder, all right, but with a single handle on top of it and the handle moves. mr. liebeler. about how many of them would you think there were? mr. walthers. there were six or seven, i believe, and i put them all in the trunk of my car and we also found a box of pictures, a bunch of pictures that we taken. we didn't go to the trouble of looking at any of this stuff much--just more or less confiscated it at the time, and we looked at it there--just like that, and then we took all this stuff and put it in the car and then mrs. paine got a phone number from mrs. oswald where you could call lee harvey oswald in oak cliff. it was a whitehall phone number, i believe, and they said they didn't know where he lived, but this was where they called him, and i called sheriff decker on the phone when i was there and gave him that number for the criss-cross, so they could send some men to that house, which i think they did, but i didn't go myself. then we put everybody in the car, the kids, mrs. oswald, and everyone--no; just a minute--before that, though, this michael paine or mitchell paine, whichever you call it, came home and i had understood from mrs. paine already that they weren't living together, that they were separated and he was supposed to be living in grand prairie and when he showed up i asked him what was his object in coming home. he said--well, after he had heard about the president's getting shot, he just decided he would take off and come home, and he arrived there while we were there. mr. liebeler. this was already after the time oswald had been arrested, of course? mr. walthers. yes. mr. liebeler. because you had actually helped arrest oswald at the texas theatre? mr. walthers. yes. mr. liebeler. and what time was it approximately, would you be able to give us that? mr. walthers. oh, man--i couldn't tell you; i'm sorry. mr. liebeler. oswald was arrested about what time--it must have been around close to o'clock or : ? mr. walthers. it was between : and o'clock. this wasn't his getting off time, i remember him saying he had taken off and he had worked at bell helicopter. mr. liebeler. it's perfectly possible, however, that he could have heard about oswald having been arrested in connection with the officer tippit shooting? mr. walthers. but he didn't say anything about that when he came in. mr. liebeler. what did he say? mr. walthers. i didn't ask him, of course, if he knew he had been arrested. i asked him if he knew oswald and he said, "yes"; he had known him. we were standing, i remember, on each side of the ironing board when i talked to him and he said "yes," he had known him and i said, "how does the guy think, what is he, what does he do?" he said, "he's a communist. he is very communistic minded. he believes in it." and he says, "he used to try to convince me it was a good thing," and he says, "i don't believe in it." and our conversation didn't go too far. it was just a matter of talk about oswald and what he had to say about him being a communist. they were all put in the cars and we took them to capt. will fritz' office along with the stuff we had confiscated, the files and the blanket and the other stuff, and i turned them over to captain fritz and left them and went back to my station. mr. liebeler. what was in these file cabinets? mr. walthers. we didn't go through them at the scene. i do remember a letterhead--i can't describe it--i know we opened one of them and we seen what it was, that it was a lot of personal letters and stuff and a letterhead that this paine fellow had told us about, and he said, "that's from the people he writes to in russia"; he was talking about this letterhead we had pulled out and so i just pushed it all back down and shut it and took the whole works. mr. liebeler. i have been advised that some story has developed that at some point that when you went out there you found seven file cabinets full of cards that had the names on them of pro-castro sympathizers or something of that kind, but you don't remember seeing any of them? mr. walthers. well, that could have been one, but i didn't see it. mr. liebeler. there certainly weren't any seven file cabinets with the stuff you got out there or anything like that? mr. walthers. i picked up all of these file cabinets and what all of them contained, i don't know myself to this day. mr. liebeler. as i was sitting here listening to your story, i could see where that story might have come from--you mentioned the "fair play for cuba" leaflets that were in a barrel. mr. walthers. that's right--we got a stack of them out of that barrel, but things get all twisted around. mr. liebeler. there has also been a story, some sort of story that you were supposed to have found a spent bullet. mr. walthers. yes; that's what the story was in this book, and man, i've never made a statement about finding a spent bullet. mr. liebeler. and you never found any spent bullet? mr. walthers. no; me and allan sweatt or days after the assassination did go back down there and make a pretty diligent search in there all up where that bullet might have hit, thinking that maybe the bullet hit the cement and laid down on some of them beams but we looked all up there and everywhere and i never did find one. i never did in all of my life tell anybody i found a bullet other than where it hit. mr. liebeler. also, actually, if you were standing down here in front of this building on main street at the time the shots were fired, i suppose you could have seen down there to this railroad track trestle that goes over the underpass, did you have occasion to look down there at any time? mr. walthers. no; it never even entered my mind, and knowing how this thing is arranged and i have chased a couple of escapees across the thing before, and knowing what was over there, the thought that anyone was shooting from back in here--i've heard some people say he was behind the fence, and i'm telling you, it just can't be, because it's a wide open river bottom area as far as you can go. mr. liebeler. it's a river bottom? mr. walthers. yes; and the thought that anyone would be shooting off of there would almost be an impossible thing--there's no place for him to go--there's nothing. mr. liebeler. so, you certainly never saw anybody firing from the tops of those railroad tracks, i mean, you never told anybody you saw someone firing from up there? mr. walthers. no, sir; not at all. mr. liebeler. you never told anybody that one of the shots had come from the top of those railroad tracks either; is that right? mr. walthers. never. mr. liebeler. are you sure that what you saw there on the curb was a ricochet mark or could you clearly identify that in your own mind? mr. walthers. yes; it was a fresh ricochet mark. i have seen them and i noticed it for the next or days as it got grayer and grayer and grayer as it aged. mr. liebeler. what curb was it on? mr. walthers. it would be on the south main street curb--it would be on the south side of main. mr. liebeler. now, looking at commission exhibit no. here and i am looking at--looking specifically at spot no. on that exhibit, it would have been directly east up main street on the north curb at no. , is that right? mr. walthers. yes, and about--i could step this off here--just about this distance from the underpass on the curb. mr. liebeler. about or feet or something like that? mr. walthers. i imagine about or feet. mr. liebeler. now, here's a picture that has been marked tague exhibit no. and i have never even been able to figure out which way it is supposed to be looked at, but it purports to be a picture of a ricochet mark on this curb down there, does that look anything like what you saw down there? mr. walthers. yes, a little at one end where it first hit and then went to the left. this would be--this was shaded from the sun by someone's hand, evidently. this would actually be the curb--this would be the street right here [indicating]. mr. liebeler. the lower part--the black part of the dark colored part? mr. walthers. yes. let me see now. a picture taken straight down like this don't have any particular bearing. i'll tell you what--this is going to be the divider between the pavement, because i remember, there's not any grass growing down there, it's just a gravel looking top, so this is going to be the street, and that's right, because the bullet is going to be big where it hit first, and then it left this trail. mr. liebeler. do you think that the light colored part is the street and the dark colored part is the divider? mr. walthers. i think it would be the street--the light colored part, and the dark colored part is this little gravelly looking part down there and it's under the shade of the underpass and no grass will grow there. mr. liebeler. the light colored part is a part of the street and the dark colored part is the curb and there is what appears to be a ricochet mark on the curb. mr. walthers. yes; because it is high like--this is the curb and this is the street, and it come along this edge of the curb. mr. liebeler. toward the top of the curb? mr. walthers. and it angled down--at the angle, you could almost just point it right back up. mr. liebeler. toward the texas school book depository building? mr. walthers. evidently this shot must have went way high over that car--the last shot, as they were fixing to go to the underpass--it must have been awful high to hit where it did. mr. liebeler. you say it was the last shot, why? mr. walthers. i would say it was the last shot because of the distance it went down towards the underpass. had there been another shot, it would have been way--would have went way back over there. mr. liebeler. the car had already been down--the car would have already been under and by the underpass? mr. walthers. yes. mr. liebeler. can you think of anything else you saw or observed that day that you can tell us about what happened? mr. walthers. no. mr. liebeler. when you were there at the texas theatre helping to arrest oswald, did you hear oswald say anything when they tried to get ahold of him and tried to get him out of there? mr. walthers. like i say, there was quite a scuffle between them, but i heard him say, "it's all over now, it's all over now," or something to that degree, and i can't be sure, because like i say, there was such a scuffle going on and there was so much confusion, but he said something about, "now"--"it's over now," or, "it's all over now." mr. liebeler. do you know if anybody else heard anything that he said at the time; have you discussed this with anybody else? mr. walthers. i haven't discussed it because the officers that were there were not in my squad and i haven't talked to anybody about it, but there were some other officers around there. some of our officers were there but they weren't right there in the area. mr. liebeler. did you hear--there have been some stories that he actually tried to shoot one of the officers there with that pistol and one of the officers heard that pistol--the hammer hit the bullet, did you hear anything like that? mr. walthers. no, sir. mr. liebeler. when i say, "did you hear anything like that," i mean, did you hear the hammer in the pistol hit the bullet? mr. walthers. no. mr. liebeler. did you ever hear somebody say that it hit the bullet? mr. walthers. i think mcdonald said he snapped it at him. mr. liebeler. but you didn't hear it? mr. walthers. no. mr. liebeler. but you do think that oswald said something like this--"it's over, it's all over now?" mr. walthers. he said something--when he was being pulled up out of the seat and as they were getting the gun away from him is when he made a remark about, "it's over now, it's all over now." mr. liebeler. after he had been subdued and they got his gun away from him, he said that? mr. walthers. yes. mr. liebeler. if you can't think of anything else that i haven't asked you about, i don't think i have any more questions. i want to thank you very much for coming in and giving us your testimony, especially being as late as it is. mr. walthers. i'm sorry if i was a little evasive on some of this, but i didn't remember--it's been quite a while now. of course, i have the statement that i made immediately following all this, i guess, they sent you a copy of it. it would probably have a little more of the time and dates on it. mr. liebeler. we have covered the basic points that i wanted to cover and that's all. thank you very much for coming. testimony of james thomas tague the testimony of james thomas tague was taken at : p.m., on july , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. liebeler. would you rise and raise your right hand? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. tague. i do. mr. liebeler. my name is wesley j. liebeler. i am an attorney on the staff of the president's commission investigating the assassination of president kennedy. i have been authorized to take your testimony by the commission pursuant to authority granted to it by executive order dated november , , and joint resolution of congress no. . under the commission's rules of procedure, you are entitled to have an attorney present, and you are entitled to days, notice of the hearing, and you are entitled to the usual privileges so far as not answering questions are concerned. since you are here without an attorney, i presume that you are prepared to go ahead without the presence of counsel? mr. tague. yes. mr. liebeler. would you state your name for the record? mr. tague. james thomas tague. mr. liebeler. what is your address? mr. tague. my address is west euless in euless, tex. mr. liebeler. what is your employment? mr. tague. i am a salesman for cedar springs dodge. mr. liebeler. here in dallas? mr. tague. dallas; yes. mr. liebeler. when were you born? mr. tague. october , . mr. liebeler. it is my understanding that you were in the vicinity of the texas school book depository building at the time of the assassination, is that correct? mr. tague. that's correct; yes, sir. mr. liebeler. would you tell us how you happened to be there and what you saw, and what happened. mr. tague. i was going downtown to pick up my wife--she was my girl that i was going with at the time--to take her to lunch, and i accidentally came upon the motorcade. i was not planning to watch the parade or anything. there were several cars stopped in front of me, and i stopped there myself under the triple underpass and got out and was standing there just, oh, about a minute before the president's car came by. mr. liebeler. where was your car actually located? mr. tague. the nose of the car was sticking out from underneath the triple underpass. mr. liebeler. what street were you on? mr. tague. what is the farthest street to the south? mr. liebeler. commerce street? mr. tague. commerce; yes. mr. liebeler. commerce street is one-way going east? mr. tague. right; that's correct. mr. liebeler. so they stopped all traffic on commerce street? mr. tague. cars in the left lane were stopping, the ones next to the curb, and several cars had stopped in front of me, and i stopped. the car was just halfway out from underneath the underpass, and i got out of my car and stood by the bridge abutment. mr. liebeler. so you were just out from under the triple underpass so that you could see the president's car and the motorcade coming on down elm street, is that correct? mr. tague. that is correct. mr. liebeler. did you see the motorcade come down elm street? mr. tague. yes; i did. mr. liebeler. go ahead and tell us what you saw. mr. tague. well, i was standing there watching, and really i was watching to try to distinguish the president and his car. about this time i heard what sounded like a firecracker. well, a very loud firecracker. it certainly didn't sound like a rifleshot. it was more of a loud cannon-type sound. i looked around to see who was throwing firecrackers or what was going on and i turned my head away from the motorcade and, of course, two more shots. and i ducked behind the post when i realized somebody was shooting after the third shot. after the third shot, i ducked behind the bridge abutment and was there for a second, and i glanced out and just as i looked out, the car following the president's car, the one with the secret service men, was just flying past at that time. mr. liebeler. going on elm street under the triple underpass? mr. tague. right. going on elm. so i stood there looking around. i looked up--there was a motorcycle policeman, and he stopped and had drawn his gun and was running up the embankment toward the railroad tracks. a crowd of people; several people, were starting to come down into that area where he was running, and the people pointing, and excitement up there and so on, and about that time a patrolman who evidently had been stationed under the triple underpass walked up and said, "what happened?" and i said, "i don't know; something." and we walked up to the--by this time the motorcycle policeman returned back close to where his motorcycle was, and we walked up there and there was a man standing there. seeing that he was very excited--i don't remember his name--at the time i did have it on the tip of my tongue--very excited saying he was watching the president and it seemed like his head just exploded. this was a couple or minutes after this happened. and the patrolman said, "well, i saw something fly off back on the street." we walked back down there, and another man joined us who identified himself as the deputy sheriff, who was in civilian clothes, and i guess this was or minutes after. i don't know how to gage time on something like that. and i says, "well, you know now, i recall something sting me on the face while i was standing down there." and he looked up and he said, "yes; you have blood there on your cheek." and i reached up and there was a couple of drops of blood. and he said, where were you standing? and i says, "right down here." we walked feet away when this deputy sheriff said, "look here on the curb." there was a mark quite obviously that was a bullet, and it was very fresh. we turned around and we looked back up to see where this possibly could have come from, and the policeman thought he had seen something over here. mr. liebeler. well, now, i have some pictures here and i will show you to indicate these places, an aerial view of the whole area, commission exhibit no. . of course, the texas school book depository building is here on the left, and this is the triple underpass here, and this, of course, is commerce street going toward the east. as i understand it, your car was just nosed out in the left-hand lane of commerce street and was just out from under the railroad tracks that go over the triple underpass, so the nose of your car was on the easternmost portion, on the eastern side of the railroad tracks that go over the triple underpass, is that correct? mr. tague. that is correct. mr. liebeler. now did you get out of your car? mr. tague. right. mr. liebeler. what did you do? did you stay near your car or did you walk on the area toward the grassy plaza? mr. tague. i was standing or feet in front of the concrete embankment right here [pointing]. mr. liebeler. let's make a no. on this picture as to where you were standing. this is the concrete strip that runs between commerce and main street right here? mr. tague. i was standing about right there. mr. liebeler. at no. ? mr. tague. yes; right. mr. liebeler. now, that is where you were standing when you apparently got hit with this flying, whatever it was? mr. tague. right. mr. liebeler. then after you had run into this deputy sheriff, you looked along the street and you saw what you thought to be a mark made by a---- mr. tague. a motorcycle was parked here and the policeman was here on the grass right here, and there was a swarm of people around him. mr. liebeler. at no. . let's put a no. there. mr. tague. this man was relating his story of how he was standing right there as he witnessed the facts. he said it looked like the president's head exploded. and i said i felt something hit me. we walked down here. mr. liebeler. toward no. ? mr. tague. right. when we got within about feet, the deputy sheriff spotted the place about to feet out from the embankment on the curb, and turned around, and we looked up here where the policeman originally ran up on the grass here. mr. liebeler. there is an area circled here with the letter "c" in it. is that where the policeman ran toward the grassy area; included in that circle, is that right? mr. tague. right. i pointed this out, and we turned around and looked toward the school book depository, and from the reflection of the sun it was something on the window. not the--well, it is maybe five or six windows which were open, which it was not the window that proved to be where the shots were fired, but it was a different window like it had spider webs or dust, and maybe shots had come through the window. we said maybe this is where they came from. and the deputy sheriff ran back to the policeman. i may not be quite accurate, but i believe at the time there was a whole swarm of motorcycle policemen coming back to the area under the underpass going the wrong way here on elm. they came back and parked, and he mentioned to them--that is probably minutes after it happened, and he was on the radio, and everybody ran up around the school book depository at this time. mr. liebeler. let's go back and fix the general spot when the deputy sheriff saw the mark on the street, going back to point no. , which is where you were standing when you were hit. we go east along---- mr. tague. right here is a curb. mr. liebeler. there is a curb that runs along---- mr. tague. about to feet right on the top of round of the curb, was the mark that very definitely was fresh, and i would say it was a mark of a bullet. mr. liebeler. you say it is about or feet east of where you were standing? mr. tague. no; about to feet. mr. liebeler. east of where you were standing? mr. tague. right. mr. liebeler. at point no. ? mr. tague. right. mr. liebeler. so we have the point fixed there, and we can just estimate to feet east on main street, is that right? mr. tague. that's correct. mr. liebeler. that would have been on the south curb of main street, is that right? mr. tague. it would have been on the south curb. mr. liebeler. about to feet east of the point no. on commission exhibit no. . now you yourself, as i understand it, did not see the president hit? mr. tague. i did not; no. mr. liebeler. how long after did you feel yourself get hit by anything? mr. tague. i felt it at the time, but i didn't associate, didn't make any connection, and ignored it. and after this happened, or maybe the second or third shot, i couldn't tell you definitely--i made no connection. i looked around wondering what was going on, and i recall this. we got to talking, and i recall that something had stinged me, and then the deputy sheriff looked up and said, you have blood there on your cheek. that is when we walked back down there. mr. liebeler. do you have any idea which bullet might have made that mark? mr. tague. i would guess it was either the second or third. i wouldn't say definitely on which one. mr. liebeler. did you hear any more shots after you felt yourself get hit in the face? mr. tague. i believe i did. mr. liebeler. you think you did? mr. tague. i believe i did. mr. liebeler. how many? mr. tague. i believe that it was the second shot, so i heard the third shot afterwards. mr. liebeler. did you hear three shots? mr. tague. i heard three shots; yes sir. and i did notice the time on the hertz clock. it was : . mr. liebeler. that was about the time that you felt yourself struck? mr. tague. i just glanced. i mean i just stopped, got out of my car, and here came the motorcade. i just happened upon the scene. mr. liebeler. now i understand that you went back there subsequently and took some pictures of the area, isn't that right? mr. tague. pardon? mr. liebeler. i understand that you went back subsequently and took some pictures of the area. mr. tague. yes; about a month ago. mr. liebeler. with a motion picture camera? mr. tague. yes; i didn't know anybody knew about that. mr. liebeler. i show you baker exhibit no. , and ask you if you took that picture. mr. tague. no; not to my knowledge. mr. liebeler. in point of fact, that picture was taken by another individual; i confused the picture taken by somebody else with the picture i thought you had taken. you, yourself did take pictures of the area about a month ago? mr. tague. yes; my wife and i were going to indianapolis. this is the home of my parents. i was taking some pictures of the area to show to them. this was the latter part of may. mr. liebeler. did you look at the curb at that time to see if the mark was still there? mr. tague. yes. mr. liebeler. was it still there? mr. tague. not that i could tell. mr. liebeler. did you meet a newspaper photographer that day and talk to him at all about the assassination? mr. tague. the day of the assassination? mr. liebeler. yes. mr. tague. not that i can recall. i left the area down there at about a quarter to one, and the officer there told me to go to the police headquarters and report to somebody down there and tell them what i had seen. mr. liebeler. did you do that? mr. tague. i did that. mr. liebeler. referring now to baker exhibit no. , does that look like it might have been taken from approximately the place where you were standing at the time you got hit, from the same general area? mr. tague. i believe i was back further to the left, back down this way further. mr. liebeler. that is further toward the west? mr. tague. yes. mr. liebeler. further down toward the triple underpass? mr. tague. that's right. mr. liebeler. did it appear to you that the lamppost that is showing right here on the right-hand side of baker exhibit no. is the very end of the grassy area described by commerce street and main street, and right down toward the concrete embankment? mr. tague. it might possibly be. mr. liebeler. are you able to tell for sure by looking at baker exhibit no. ? mr. tague. no. mr. liebeler. i have another picture here that purports to be a picture of a curb with a bullet mark on it. i ask you if that looks like what you saw that day. mr. tague. it looks similar, but i can't say whether this is the actual one or not, because you can see it appears to be a bullet mark. mr. liebeler. i have initialed this picture, having marked it tague exhibit no. , and i would like to have you initial it for the purpose of identification. (mr. tague initials.) mr. liebeler. you indicate that the mark on the curb---- mr. tague. i can't tell too much which angle of the curb this is or what here. mr. liebeler. that is not a very clear picture either. actually, i can't figure which way to look at it. mr. tague. i can't either. mr. liebeler. it looks like there is a man standing there with a hand along the side of the curb. mr. tague. yes; this looks like the curb here at the back and the sun shining down. the bullet mark was right at the circle of the curb as this here. mr. liebeler. in other words, where the curb turned? mr. tague. right. at the very round, right in the middle of the round. mr. liebeler. that is where the street curb turns; when it turns there? i don't understand that. [looking at commission exhibit no. .] mr. tague. this right here, this picture was taken this way. it would be looking this way. mr. liebeler. i am still at a loss. you indicated there is a turn in the curb at some point along here. does the curb end and the road go together? mr. tague. here is the curb here i am talking about on the very round. mr. liebeler. on the round top of the curb? the curb itself continues on, but the bullet struck sort of the top edge of the curb? mr. tague. that's right. mr. liebeler. i understand. did you have any idea where these shots came from when you heard them ringing out? mr. tague. yes; i thought they were coming from my left. mr. liebeler. immediately to your left, or toward the back? of course, now we have other evidence that would indicate that the shots did come from the texas school book depository, but see if we can disregard that and determine just what you heard when the shots were fired in the first place. mr. tague. to recall everything is almost impossible. just an impression is all i recall, is the fact that my first impression was that up by the, whatever you call the monument, or whatever it was---- mr. liebeler. up above no. ? mr. tague. that somebody was throwing firecrackers up there, that the police were running up there to see what was going on, and this was my first impression. somebody was causing a disturbance, that somebody had drawn a gun and was shooting at the crowd, and the police were running up to it. when i saw the people throwing themselves on the ground is when i realized there was serious trouble, and i believe that was after the third shot was fired. mr. liebeler. your impression of where the shots came from was much the result of the activity near no. ? mr. tague. not when i heard the shots. mr. liebeler. you thought they had come from the area between nos. and ? mr. tague. i believe they came from up in here. mr. liebeler. back in the area "c"? mr. tague. right. mr. liebeler. behind the concrete monument here between nos. and , toward the general area of "c"? mr. tague. yes. mr. liebeler. did you look up near the railroad tracks in that area after you heard the shots? mr. tague. i looked all around. i looked at the complete area to try to find out where the disturbance was. and for some reason, after the third shot, i believe i ducked down back in here. mr. liebeler. under the railroad tracks? mr. tague. right. behind an abutment. and when i stuck my head outside, the secret service car was just starting to pass under the underpass. mr. liebeler. the car immediately behind the president. did you see any evidence of anybody having fired from the area on the railroad tracks above the triple underpass? mr. tague. none. mr. liebeler. do you think that it is consistent with what you heard and saw that day, that the shots could have come from the sixth floor of the texas school book depository? mr. tague. yes. mr. liebeler. there was in fact a considerable echo in that area? mr. tague. there was no echo from where i stood. i was asked this question before, and there was no echo. it was just a loud, oh, not a cannon, but definitely louder and more solid than a rifleshot. mr. liebeler. so you, being in a place where there was no echo, you were able to recognize how many shots there were quite clearly? mr. tague. i believe so. mr. liebeler. and you say you heard three shots? mr. tague. that is right. mr. liebeler. do you remember seeing anything else or observing anything else that day that you think would be helpful to the commission, that i haven't asked you about? mr. tague. not that i can think of. there is lots of things that you recall about something like that, that you don't recall for certain. what struck me the most was that everybody said all three shots were accounted for. i felt very strongly that the third shot hit down there, and there was the deputy sheriff and the patrolman down under the bridge right there with me. mr. liebeler. now you say you thought it was the third shot that hit down there? mr. tague. no; i said i thought that all three shots were accounted for. all the newspaper accounts for months said all the shots were accounted for. mr. liebeler. in terms of hitting in the car? mr. tague. hitting into the car; yes. mr. liebeler. well, there was a story in the paper more recently that indicated that one of them might have missed. mr. tague. that's right. mr. liebeler. did you see that? mr. tague. that's right; yes. mr. liebeler. other than that, is there anything that you can think of that you think the commission should know about of what you heard and saw that day? mr. tague. no; i don't know a thing. the only thing that i saw that i thought was wrong was that there was about or or minutes in there before anybody done anything about anything. mr. liebeler. that was after the shots were fired? mr. tague. that was after the shots were fired. mr. liebeler. what do you mean, "before they did anything"? mr. tague. there was no action taken except for the one policeman that i could see that stopped his motorcycle, and it fell over on him at first, and he got it standing upright and drew his gun, and he was the only one doing anything about it. mr. liebeler. you didn't see any other policemen around in the area? mr. tague. not for or minutes. if oswald was in that building, he had all the time in the world to calmly walk out of there. mr. liebeler. apparently that is just what he did do. well, if you can't think of anything else, mr. tague, i want to thank you for coming in and for the cooperation you have given us. we appreciate it very much. mr. tague. okay. testimony of emmett j. hudson the testimony of emmett j. hudson was taken at : a.m., on july , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. liebeler. would you raise your right hand and take the oath? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. hudson. i do. mr. liebeler. my name is wesley j. liebeler. i am an attorney on the staff of the president's commission investigating the assassination of president kennedy. mr. hudson. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. i have been authorized to take your testimony by the commission pursuant to authority granted to it by executive order , dated november , , and the joint resolution of congress no. . pursuant to the rules of the commission you are entitled to have an attorney present, if you wish, and you are entitled to days' notice of the hearing. i don't think you did get days' notice of it, but since you are here i assume you are willing to go ahead? mr. hudson. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. do you want to have an attorney present? mr. hudson. i don't know that it is necessary--no, is it? mr. liebeler. no; i don't think it is at all necessary. most of the witnesses don't have one present. we just have a few questions. will you state your full name, please? mr. hudson. emmett j. hudson. mr. liebeler. what is your address? mr. hudson. south bishop. mr. liebeler. it is my understanding that you are employed by the dallas park department and you are the grounds keeper of dealey plaza; is that correct? mr. hudson. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. were you the grounds keeper of dealey plaza on or about november , . mr. hudson. yes; i have been there about years. mr. liebeler. would you tell us where you were on november , , at around noon, around the time the presidential motorcade came by? mr. hudson. yes; i was over there next to that t. & p. railroad yard where the little toolshed was. mr. liebeler. what is the nearest intersection to where you were? mr. hudson. elm. mr. liebeler. elm and what? mr. hudson. houston. mr. liebeler. elm and houston? mr. hudson. yes. mr. liebeler. how far away from the corner of elm and houston were you at the time the motorcade came by? mr. hudson. oh, i suppose that it's about--the best i can estimate is somewhere about yards, i guess, down elm and houston when the motorcade came along--that's about where i was. mr. liebeler. you were right by where the motorcade came by; is that right? mr. hudson. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. would you tell us to the best of your recollection what you saw and tell us just what happened when the motorcade came along? mr. hudson. well, i was standing on those steps that came straight down to elm there, just above that triple underpass, i was about halfway between the triple underpass and houston, where the steps are--somewhere near about halfway. mr. liebeler. i show you a photograph which is no. of commission exhibit no. . it depicts the street and the triple underpass. can you show us on that picture, if that picture shows it the place where you were standing? mr. hudson. let me see--that's the triple underpass down there--i don't believe this picture gets those steps--yes; it does, too--here they are--i recognize it now--here it is right here. mr. liebeler. where are the steps? mr. hudson. here they are--right there. mr. liebeler. it is the series of steps that runs right down the street there? mr. hudson. yes. mr. liebeler. can you show me just where you were standing? mr. hudson. well, i was right along--you see, the steps come down the steps for a way and then there is a broad place, oh, i'll say it is a little wider than this table here on the steps and then some steps and i was standing on this--that would be somewhere around along about there. mr. liebeler. let me just mark on that picture the place where you were standing so that we can have that. mr. hudson. right along about there. mr. liebeler. it was right here where i have placed this "x", is that correct? mr. hudson. yes; right along in there. mr. liebeler. so, you were standing about where i placed the "x" on photograph no. of commission exhibit no. . tell me what you saw--tell me what happened to the best of your recollection. mr. hudson. well, there was a young fellow, oh, i would judge his age about in his late twenties. he said he had been looking for a place to park and he walked up there and he said he finally just taken a place over there in one of them parking lots, and he come on down there and said he worked over there on industrial and me and him both just sat down there first on those steps. when the motorcade turned off of houston onto elm, we got up and stood up, me and him both. he was on the left side and i was on the right and so the first shot rung out and, of course, i didn't realize it was a shot, what was taking place right at that present time, and when the second one rung out, the motorcade had done got further on down elm, and you see, i was trying to get a good look at president kennedy. i happened to be looking right at him when that bullet hit him--the second shot. mr. liebeler. that was when the bullet him him in the head; is that correct? mr. hudson. yes; it looked like it hit him somewhere along about a little bit behind the ear and a little bit above the ear. mr. liebeler. on the right-hand side or the left-hand side? mr. hudson. right hand. mr. liebeler. can you tell me approximately where the president's car was when you heard what you later figured out was the first shot? mr. hudson. well, the best i could get right off--i remember it was right along about this lightpost right here. mr. liebeler. you are indicating the first lightpost on the right-hand side of elm street? mr. hudson. yes; coming off of houston, you see, there's a lightpost right there close to the houston street, right there, just above this little crook right there. mr. liebeler. that lightpost doesn't show in the picture you have here? mr. hudson. no, sir; it doesn't show in the picture--it was about, i believe, where the first shot was fired. mr. liebeler. you think he was by the lightpost in this picture when the first shot was fired? mr. hudson. right along there is about where president kennedy's car was when he was hit--at the time i was looking right at him when the shot struck him, when the bullet struck him. mr. liebeler. how many shots did you hear altogether? mr. hudson. three. mr. liebeler. three shots? mr. hudson. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. are you sure about that? mr. hudson. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. you say that it was the second shot that hit him in the head; is that right? mr. hudson. yes; i do believe that--i know it was. mr. liebeler. you saw him hit in the head, there wasn't any question in your mind about that, was there? mr. hudson. no, sir. mr. liebeler. and after you saw him hit in the head, did you hear another shot? mr. hudson. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. did you see that shot hit anything--the third shot? mr. hudson. no, sir. i'll tell you--this young fellow that was sitting there with me--standing there with me at the present time, he says, "lay down, mister, somebody is shooting the president." he says, "lay down, lay down," and he kept on repeating, "lay down," so he was already laying down one way on the sidewalk, so i just laid down over on the ground and resting my arm on the ground and when that third shot rung out and when i was close to the ground--you could tell the shot was coming from above and kind of behind. mr. liebeler. how could you tell that? mr. hudson. well, just the sound of it. mr. liebeler. you heard it come from sort of behind the motorcade and then above? mr. hudson. yes; i don't know if you have ever laid down close to the ground, you know, when you heard the reports coming, but it's a whole lot plainer than it is when you are standing up in the air. mr. liebeler. you were standing down here where we put the "x"? mr. hudson. yes. mr. liebeler. you say that when the president was hit in the head he was up here by the first lamppost on the right-hand side of the post that shows in the picture? mr. hudson. yes; right along in here. mr. liebeler. that's when he got hit in the head? mr. hudson. yes; i think so. mr. liebeler. are you sure about that? mr. hudson. yes, sir; i am. mr. liebeler. so, you had to look up elm street? mr. hudson. yes; i was looking up this way, you see. you see [indicating on photograph], that's the motorcade car right there, isn't it? mr. liebeler. yes; the picture that we are looking at here is a picture of a reenactment of the scene. mr. hudson. yes; so right along about even with these steps, pretty close to even with this here, the last shot was fired--somewhere right along in there. mr. liebeler. you think that the last shot was fired and the car was about where it actually is in that picture when the third shot was fired? mr. hudson. pretty close to it; yes, sir. mr. liebeler. but you think the president had already been hit in the head by the time the third shot was fired? mr. hudson. he had been hit twice, so parkland hospital said. he was hit in the neck one time and in the head one time. mr. liebeler. when the first shot was fired, were you looking at the presidential car then; could you see it then? mr. hudson. yes; it was coming around--it had just got around the corner, you see, from off of houston street, making that corner there, come off of houston onto elm. mr. liebeler. did it look to you like the president was hit by the first shot? mr. hudson. no, sir; i don't think so--i sure don't. mr. liebeler. you don't think he got hit by the first shot? mr. hudson. no. mr. liebeler. you say it was the second shot that hit him in the head? mr. hudson. yes. mr. liebeler. what happened after the president got hit in the head, did you see what he did, what happened in the car? mr. hudson. he slumped over and mrs. kennedy, she climbs over in the seat with him and pulls him over. mr. liebeler. pulled him down in the seat? mr. hudson. pulled him over in her lap like. mr. liebeler. if you don't think the president got hit by the first shot and you say he got hit in the head with the second shot---- mr. hudson. yes. mr. liebeler. and if we assume that he was hit twice, you would have to say that he was hit by the third shot; isn't that right? mr. hudson. yes. mr. liebeler. he was hit again after he got hit in the head? mr. hudson. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. do you think that could have been possible when mrs. kennedy pulled him over, do you think he could have got hit in the neck after he had been hit in the head? mr. hudson. yes, sir; i do. mr. liebeler. he was still sitting far enough up in the car he could have been hit? mr. hudson. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. did you watch the president after he got hit in the head like that? mr. hudson. well, as soon as everybody realized what had happened, you know, everybody went to going up the hill so we did too. mr. liebeler. so, you only saw the president hit once; is that right, sir? mr. hudson. yes, sir; i just saw him hit once. mr. liebeler. that was in the head? mr. hudson. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. and you aren't able to say from your own observation when he was hit in the neck? mr. hudson. yes. mr. liebeler. if he was hit in the neck. mr. hudson. no, sir. mr. liebeler. could the car have actually been down here where it is in photograph no. , could it have been that far down elm street--this is elm street that runs down here--right here--could the car have been that far down elm street when the president got hit in the head? mr. hudson. no, sir; no, sir, it wasn't that far down. mr. liebeler. do you see this little pedestal back up here? mr. hudson. yes. mr. liebeler. just above the "x" where you were standing? mr. hudson. yes. mr. liebeler. did you see anybody standing up there that you can remember, during the time the president went by? mr. hudson. oh, there was a bunch of people in there, you know, a whole bunch of them--a lot of people in there--a lot of people in here. mr. liebeler. did you see anybody standing up there taking motion pictures with a movie camera? mr. hudson. oh, yes; i seen people up there trying to get--taking pictures. mr. liebeler. did you see a man with a moving picture camera? mr. hudson. not in particular, i didn't. it was such an exciting time--now--i did notice a man back over here on this triangle. mr. liebeler. standing across elm street? mr. hudson. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. with a motion picture camera? mr. hudson. well, he had a camera--i don't know whether it was a motion picture camera or not, but he had a camera. mr. liebeler. i show you another picture which we will mark as hudson exhibit no. . i have put my initials on the back of the picture. would you do that too so we can identify the picture before we start to talk about it, so we don't get confused? mr. hudson. you mean--put my name? mr. liebeler. just your initials. mr. hudson. [marked picture as requested.] is that all right? mr. liebeler. now, let's take a look at that picture, mr. hudson, and let me ask you if you can see in that picture, where you were standing? mr. hudson. (no response.) mr. liebeler. now, this picture, hudson exhibit no. , has a sign in it that says, "stemmons freeway, keep right," doesn't it? mr. hudson. yes. mr. liebeler. can you find that sign on the photograph no. of commission exhibit no. ? the one that we were talking about before. mr. hudson. that's right here, i believe--right here. mr. liebeler. now, that sign says, "r. l. thornton freeway, keep right." where is the stemmons freeway sign in this picture? can you see it in that picture at all--i can't. mr. hudson. i can't either--that isn't it--it's farther up this way. mr. liebeler. that's further back up and it's out of the picture? mr. hudson. yes. mr. liebeler. there are two signs in picture no. , one says, "r. l. thornton freeway, keep right," and the other one says, "fort worth turnpike, keep right." mr. hudson. there were two of them that wasn't too far apart right through there--them signs was--one was right along in here and the other one was either further up, i guess. it's not in that picture--i don't believe. now, they have moved some of those signs. they have moved that r. l. thornton freeway sign and put up a stemmons sign. mr. liebeler. they have? they have moved it? mr. hudson. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. that might explain it, because this picture here, no. , was taken after the assassination and this one was taken at the time--no. . mr. hudson. yes; it had to be right along in there--those steps have got to come down right along in here, if i see the picture right. now, this is elm right here coming down through here, and this is that concrete thing up here that comes around like this--it comes over here and the steps begin right along up in there somewhere and come on down right here to the sidewalk, right along in there somewhere to where those steps is. mr. liebeler. so, that you think you were standing somewhere in the back left-hand part of this picture where the steps come down off of the concrete structure there? mr. hudson. yes; this was taken at the present time--it happened--this picture was? mr. liebeler. yes; this is an actual picture of the motorcade itself; yes, sir. let me suggest that the pictures are taken from different angles, referring to photograph no. of commission exhibit no. --there is a little concrete stand here in the very right-hand side of the picture. mr. hudson. that's just right along in here. mr. liebeler. that's right, and that appears in hudson exhibit no. , immediately to the right of the sign that says, "stemmons freeway, keep right." does it not? mr. hudson. yes; those steps are right along there between that concrete--the end of that concrete wall right there and that elm tree come between them--no, not an elm but that's a live oak tree--that's a live oak tree right there. mr. liebeler. and that's right off of the end of this concrete embankment there, there's a live oak tree there. mr. hudson. yes. mr. liebeler. can you see yourself in that picture anywhere, can you make yourself out? mr. hudson. no, sir; i can't, unless it is one of these two men right here--i can't tell--if i had that picture that was taken in the times herald paper--i can show you myself in it. mr. liebeler. which one is that? mr. hudson. well, it was in the times herald paper the next morning after, i believe, after the assassination, maybe the evening after the assassination. mr. liebeler. look at this picture. mr. hudson. [examining picture referred to.] i don't know--if that's one of them men and myself or not up there. mr. liebeler. i have shown you commission exhibit no. , and you are not able to point to yourself in that picture at any place. actually, commission exhibit no. shows a different area. mr. hudson. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. that's a picture from the front of the texas school book depository building and you wouldn't be in that picture, according to where you placed yourself by looking at hudson exhibit no. . mr. hudson. no; i wouldn't be in that at all--i know. if they had that picture that was taken--a fellow was shooting from across elm up toward those steps here, that showed my picture in it, i believe. now, i could be one of those men standing right there--i'm not for sure--i wouldn't say for sure that i was one of them or not, but i can't see it well enough to tell. mr. liebeler. in this picture here you see the car is going down elm street, isn't that right, referring to hudson exhibit no. ? mr. hudson. yes. mr. liebeler. and it is just about to pass a sign that says, "stemmons freeway, keep right." do you think that the president could have been hit when he was that far back up elm street? mr. hudson. yes. mr. liebeler. you do think that? mr. hudson. yes. mr. liebeler. and you had already heard one shot when you saw the president get hit in the head? mr. hudson. yes. mr. liebeler. and you heard another shot after that time? mr. hudson. yes. mr. liebeler. do you think, looking at hudson exhibit no. , do you think that that is about the place where the president got hit in the head, or was it further back up on elm or was it further down--if so--about where was it? mr. hudson. that's somewhere pretty close. mr. liebeler. that's pretty close right there? mr. hudson. yes; it's somewhere pretty close. mr. liebeler. after you heard these three shots and saw the president get hit in the head, you turned around and you ran up on the little knoll there and you got away. mr. hudson. yes. mr. liebeler. while you were standing there, did you ever look up toward the railroad tracks there where they went across the triple underpass? mr. hudson. no, sir; while i was laying there i didn't--i was looking down towards elm street. mr. liebeler. so, you never looked up towards the railroad tracks that went across the underpass? mr. hudson. no, sir. mr. liebeler. but you are quite sure in your own mind that the shots came from the rear of the president's car and above it; is that correct? mr. hudson. yes. mr. liebeler. did you have any idea that they might have come from the texas school book depository building? mr. hudson. well, it sounded like it was high, you know, from above and kind of behind like--in other words, to the left. mr. liebeler. and that would have fit in with the texas school book depository, wouldn't it? mr. hudson. yes. mr. liebeler. did you look up there and see if you could see anybody? mr. hudson. no, sir; i didn't. i never thought about looking up that way, to tell you the truth about it. mr. liebeler. you were thinking about getting out of the way after things started? mr. hudson. yes; it was just such an exciting time, you know, a fellow thinks about a million things in one second there at that time. mr. liebeler. did you see anybody standing around there any place with a rifle--on the grassy spot up there near where you were standing or on the overpass or any place else? mr. hudson. i never seen anyone with a gun up there except the patrols. mr. liebeler. the policemen? mr. hudson. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. now, did you see anything else down there when this all happened that you think we ought to know about that i haven't asked you about? mr. hudson. no, sir; i don't know of anything. mr. liebeler. did you see governor connally--did you think governor connally had been hit? mr. hudson. well, sir; i never noticed governor connally in the car. the first shot must have struck him and he had done fell over in the car when that happened. mr. liebeler. so that you didn't even see governor connally in the car at all? mr. hudson. no, sir. mr. liebeler. you didn't see him get hit by any of the shots? mr. hudson. no, sir. mr. liebeler. you are assuming that maybe he got hit by the first shot and fell down in the car. mr. hudson. that's right. mr. liebeler. and you saw the president get hit by what you heard as the second shot? mr. hudson. yes. mr. liebeler. how far apart were the shots spaced; do you have any recollection about that, how long did it take for all the shots to be fired and how far apart was one shot from the other? mr. hudson. well, they was pretty fast and not too fast either. it seemed like he had time enough to operate his gun plenty well--when the shots were all fired. mr. liebeler. how much time do you think passed from the time the first shot was fired until the second shot was fired, can you make any estimate about that? mr. hudson. oh, probably minutes. mr. liebeler. as much as minutes? mr. hudson. it might not have been that long. mr. liebeler. but you thought he had plenty of time to get all the shots off anyway? mr. hudson. yes. mr. liebeler. did you ever do any shooting? mr. hudson. well, not no big rifle--i haven't never done no shooting with no big rifle. i have shot shotguns--. 's and things like that. mr. liebeler. did the shots seem evenly spaced or were some of them closer together? mr. hudson. they seemed pretty well evenly spaced. mr. liebeler. evenly spaced; is that it? mr. hudson. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. did anybody talk to you at all about security arrangements prior to the time the motorcade came by, or was that all handled by the police? mr. hudson. that was all handled by the police. mr. liebeler. you didn't have anything to do with anything like that? mr. hudson. that's right--the fact of the business is, i didn't know they had been routed that way. mr. liebeler. you didn't even know it was going to go by until they came? mr. hudson. that's right. mr. liebeler. have you been interviewed by the fbi? mr. hudson. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. do you remember who talked to you? mr. hudson. not by name, i don't; no, sir. mr. liebeler. and did you tell them approximately the same thing you have told me? mr. hudson. yes; approximately the same thing. mr. liebeler. did the secret service talk to you, or the dallas police department or the fbi? mr. hudson. the fbi and i made a deposition over at the courthouse--the same day that the assassination was. mr. liebeler. that was the dallas police department or the sheriff's office? mr. hudson. the sheriff's office. mr. liebeler. okay, mr. hudson, i want to thank you very much for coming in. i don't have any more questions. mr. hudson. well, if it has been any help, i am glad it did. mr. liebeler. pardon? mr. hudson. if it has been any help, i am glad to come down. mr. liebeler. i think you have been and we are glad to have you cooperate with us in the way you have. i want to thank you very much on behalf of the commission. mr. hudson. all right, good day. testimony of edgar leon smith, jr. the testimony of edgar leon smith, jr. was taken at : a.m., on july , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. liebeler. will you raise your right hand and please take the oath? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. smith. i do. mr. liebeler. my name is wesley j. liebeler. i am an attorney with the staff of the president's committee investigating the assassination of president kennedy. i have been authorized to take your testimony by the commission, pursuant to authority granted to it by executive order no. , dated november , , and the joint resolution of congress no. . by the rules of the commission covering the taking of testimony, you are entitled to have an attorney present and you are entitled to days' notice of the hearing. i know that you haven't had days' notice of the hearing because of schedule difficulties that we had yesterday and the day before, but since you are here by yourself, i presume you are prepared to go ahead and give your testimony without an attorney being present; is that right? mr. smith. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. would you state your full name for the record, please? mr. smith. edgar leon smith, jr. mr. liebeler. where and when were you born? mr. smith. myrtle springs, tex., july , . mr. liebeler. where do you live? mr. smith. scripture, apartment , in denton, tex. mr. liebeler. you are a dallas policeman? mr. smith. a dallas policeman. mr. liebeler. i understand that you were in the vicinity of the texas school book depository building on november , ; is that correct? mr. smith. i was. mr. liebeler. would you tell us just what led up to that; how you came to be assigned to that particular area and what instructions you were given about what you were supposed to do? mr. smith. okay--the dates and times will be just approximately, because i don't recall exactly, but approximately a.m., november , , i attended a detail in the basement of the city hall for all men who were designated to work traffic for the president's visit to dallas. at that detail i was given instructions by captain lawrence, p. w. lawrence, as to my duties and some things to watch out for. some of these things i was to watch out for was to watch the crowd for any unusual movements and also to keep a check on the buildings in the vicinity of where i was located. he instructed us specifically about placards. i understand that people were allowed to carry placards, but if i should notice anyone attempting to throw them or anything like that, i should take them into custody. i was assigned to the corner of houston and elm street. i got to my traffic corner about---- mr. liebeler. before you get to that--let me ask you a few questions: what did you say your name was, edgar l.? mr. smith. e. l.--edgar l. mr. liebeler. there were two smiths on that corner? mr. smith. yes; i understand that. mr. liebeler. when you received your instructions that morning, was there any specific mention made of watching the windows of the buildings in the area? mr. smith. not that i recall--just general--watch out, you know, for the crowd. mr. liebeler. now, you went down to the corner of elm and houston and took up your duty station there at about what time? mr. smith. i think it was about approximately o'clock and--i believe that's about right. mr. liebeler. and there were two other officers there, isn't that right? mr. smith. yes; there were. mr. liebeler. can you tell us what their names were? mr. smith. one of them was welcome barnett and the other boy was named smith too, but i don't recall his initials. mr. liebeler. where did you station yourself and what did you do from the time you arrived until the time the motorcade began to approach? mr. smith. i said approximately--oh, to feet south of the south curb of elm street at the east curb of houston. i stood around there and talked with some of the people in this general vicinity and watched the crowd. mr. liebeler. you stood across the street on houston street from the texas school book depository building? mr. smith. yes. mr. liebeler. cater-cornered--and i show you commission exhibit no. , and it has a letter "a" marked there, and that will be approximately where you were standing; is that right? mr. smith. that's about where i was. mr. liebeler. what did you do from the time you stationed yourself in that position? mr. smith. well, i stood there and talked some to the crowd after they finally formed. they didn't start forming until around o'clock, and looked over here at the texas school book depository building and just stood there mainly--there wasn't much to do. mr. liebeler. did you look up at the buildings that were around this intersection here at elm street at all? mr. smith. yes; i did. mr. liebeler. as you were standing there at position "a" in exhibit no. , you were in a position to observe the south windows of the texas school book depository building, were you not? mr. smith. that's right. mr. liebeler. did you notice any windows open up there? mr. smith. i don't recall at this time whether there was any open. i'm sure there were, but i just don't remember it specifically--any specifically being open. there's quite a few people looking out the windows and what not of the various buildings. mr. liebeler. did you see any suspicious activities of any kind in any of those windows? mr. smith. no, sir; i didn't. mr. liebeler. what happened when the motorcade came down main street and turned right on houston street; what did you do then? mr. smith. i just stood parade rest there, you know, trying to keep the people back. i was facing the motorcade--they had come out in the street here a little bit and i just stood there. mr. liebeler. so you were facing west? mr. smith. yes. mr. liebeler. you did not go out into the intersection at any point here and help hold traffic back at that intersection, did you? mr. smith. no; i did not. mr. liebeler. so, you stood there as the motorcade went by, facing west down toward the triple underpass and the motorcade turned left and started to go down elm street, is that right? mr. smith. that's right. mr. liebeler. from where you are standing, could you observe the railroad tracks that went over the triple underpass down there at the bottom of exhibit no. ? mr. smith. i'm sure i could see them from that location, but i don't remember, you know, noticing them. i had noticed them earlier in the day, probably from that location, and i had saw some officers up there, and other than that, i don't remember seeing anything else. i do specifically remember seeing some officers on the overpass here. mr. liebeler. as the motorcade turned and went down elm street, what happened? mr. smith. i heard three shots, i guess they were shots. i thought that the first two were just firecrackers and kept my position and after the third one, i ran down the street here. mr. liebeler. you ran down elm street? mr. smith. well, ran down houston street and then to elm, and actually, i guess it was a little bit farther over than this, because after they turned the corner i couldn't see any of the cars, there were so many people standing there around the corner. mr. liebeler. so, you were a little bit farther south down elm street than position "a"? mr. smith. yes; possibly a little bit farther south than that--yes; i was under these windows here. mr. liebeler. that's the county building there you are talking about? mr. smith. yes; a little bit farther down. anyhow, i couldn't see down there without running over here, and i run down here at the time to see the presidential car go under the triple underpass at a high rate of speed, and i pulled my pistol out and there was people laying down there and run down the street and that was about all. i thought when it came to my mind that there were shots, and i was pretty sure there were when i saw his car because they were leaving in such a hurry, i thought they were coming from this area here, and i ran over there and checked back of it and, of course, there wasn't anything there. mr. liebeler. you thought the shot came from this little concrete structure up behind no. ? mr. smith. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. on commission exhibit no. ? mr. smith. yes. mr. liebeler. toward the railroad tracks there? mr. smith. that's true. mr. liebeler. and to the north of no. ? mr. smith. yes. mr. liebeler. so, you ran down in there and what did you do when you got down there? mr. smith. i ran down here. mr. liebeler. down on elm street? mr. smith. and i ran up to here and i couldn't get over so i went back around then. mr. liebeler. you went farther down elm street and right behind this concrete structure here; is that correct? mr. smith. and on back into there. mr. liebeler. and into the parking area behind the concrete structure there at no. ? mr. smith. yes, and there's where i stayed for an hour or so and after i got around there, they started checking everybody that was going in and out of the--well, i don't know who they was checking because there was so much milling around, because there was a bunch of county officers back there plus the policemen. mr. liebeler. that area was fairly searched by the officers that came down there? mr. smith. it was. mr. liebeler. and you didn't find anything down there that seemed to have anything to do with the shot that you heard? mr. smith. no. mr. liebeler. are you sure you heard three shots? mr. smith. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. did you have any idea where they came from? mr. smith. no, sir--like i said--the first two were just--i mulled it over in my mind and i thought it was firecrackers and i thought to myself that was awful--not very nice--throwing them out there, and then it dawned on me that it wasn't and that these were shots, especially after i ran to the corner, and this was after the third shot was fired that i got to the corner, and all i saw was the presidential car going under the underpass, but there were definitely three of those shots. mr. liebeler. what did you do after you left the general area marked "c" here, on exhibit no. ? mr. smith. well, of course, you see we checked all these cars--this extends for some distance over to the north and i went all the way down the railroad tracks a long ways and turned around and came back and took a position right down here where no. is now--this was about an hour or an hour and a half after the thing happened, and i don't guess it was that long, because they had just got the word--i had already gotten back around here when officer tippit was shot and we got the word over the police radio, and they took off and i stayed in this area for quite some time around the front, working traffic, and i don't remember when i really left. mr. liebeler. so, after you searched behind the north and west of the school book depository building, you came back up to position no. ? mr. smith. yes. mr. liebeler. you then remained in the general area of the school book depository building for some period, and then you were relieved from duty? mr. smith. well, i went back to work again on my regular duty. i had been working evenings, and i had to report to work--it was o'clock, i think, and after that i went directly to work. mr. liebeler. you didn't see anybody or anything that you could associate with the shots or with the assassination itself other than you have already described? mr. smith. no, sir; i have thought about it many times. i didn't see any smoke or anything. mr. liebeler. and at no time did you see any activity down on the railroad tracks that you associated with the assassination? mr. smith. no, sir. mr. liebeler. is what you heard that day consistent with the proposition that the shots came from the school book depository building? mr. smith. they could have come from there and they could not--i just don't know. where i was standing it just sounded like it was all round there. when i first thought--i don't know whether it actually came from here or not--you know, the thoughts of sounds coming--i don't know whether they were coming from here or not--it just looked like this was a good place for them to come from and i guess that's the reason i ran down there. mr. liebeler. down around no. pointed out on this exhibit no. ? mr. smith. yes; i have no earthly idea where they actually came from. mr. liebeler. all right, thank you very much. i appreciate your coming in. mr. smith. that's okay. testimony of abraham zapruder the testimony of abraham zapruder was taken at p.m., on july , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. liebeler. mr. zapruder, would you stand and take the oath, please? do you solemnly swear this testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. zapruder. i do. mr. liebeler. my name is wesley j. liebeler. mr. zapruder. what is your name? mr. liebeler. wesley j. liebeler [spelling] l-i-e-b-e-l-e-r. i am an attorney on the staff of the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy. i have been authorized to take your testimony by the commission pursuant to authority granted to the commission by executive order dated november , , and the joint resolution of congress, no. . under the rules of the commission you are entitled to have your attorney present, should you desire to have him here. you are entitled to days' notice of the hearing and you need not answer any questions you think would violate any rights or privileges that you may have. did you receive the days' notice of the hearing? mr. zapruder. i was out of town--i was in new york and my secretary called--she called me and told me that she made an appointment for me and that's about all that i know, mr. liebeler. the other proceedings--i don't know. mr. liebeler. i assume that you are willing to go ahead with your testimony today since you are here. mr. zapruder. yes, i am. mr. liebeler. would you state your full name for the record, please? mr. zapruder. abraham zapruder. mr. liebeler. that's spelled [spelling] z-a-p-r-u-d-e-r? is that correct? mr. zapruder. yes. mr. liebeler. what is your address? mr. zapruder. home address? mr. liebeler. yes. mr. zapruder. marquette. mr. liebeler. here in dallas? mr. zapruder. in dallas--yes. mr. liebeler. are you in business here in dallas, mr. zapruder? mr. zapruder. yes. mr. liebeler. what business are you in? mr. zapruder. manufacturing ladies dresses. mr. liebeler. the manufacture of ladies dresses? mr. zapruder. yes. mr. liebeler. i understand that you took some motion pictures at the time of the assassination? mr. zapruder. that's correct. mr. liebeler. could you tell us about the circumstances under which you did that, where you were at the time and what happened? mr. zapruder. yes. mr. liebeler. and what you saw. mr. zapruder. well, of course, what i saw you have on film, but that was the day, november , it was around : . in fact, i didn't have my camera but my secretary asked me why i don't have it and i told her i wouldn't have a chance even to see the president and somehow she urged me and i went home and got my camera and came back and first i thought i might take pictures from the window because my building is right next to the building where the alleged assassin was, and it's just across-- elm street, but i figured--i may go down and get better pictures, and i walked down, i believe it was elm street and on down to the lower part, closer to the underpass and i was trying to pick a space from where to take those pictures and i tried one place and it was on a narrow ledge and i couldn't balance myself very much. i tried another place and that had some obstruction of signs or whatever it was there and finally i found a place farther down near the underpass that was a square of concrete--i don't know what you call it--maybe about feet high. mr. liebeler. i show you a picture that has been marked hudson exhibit no. and ask you if you can in fact see yourself in that picture? mr. zapruder. let me see--there it is here. that's me standing there--there's a girl--that's where i was standing. mr. liebeler. you are pointing out a concrete abutment that comes up immediately to the right of the sign that reads "stemmons freeway, keep right"? mr. zapruder. that's right. that's the girl behind me--that's my girl that works in my office. she was up there, too. mr. liebeler. so, you and this girl are shown standing on top of this concrete abutment there? mr. zapruder. that's right--she was right behind me and that's from where i took the pictures. mr. liebeler. then, you can actually see yourself in this picture, can't you? mr. zapruder. well, i can't distinguish myself being--i know i was there. mr. liebeler. do you recognize that this picture was taken at the time you were there? mr. zapruder. yes; i was there and i would say this couldn't be anybody else, unless--if this is an authentic photograph and it isn't composed now or changed--i would say that's me. that's the first time i have seen that. were these pictures ever published in a magazine--there were pictures like that i suppose--actually? mr. liebeler. this picture here is in fact one of a series of pictures that is being sold down here in dallas by a fellow named willis, i believe his name is phil willis. he has a series of slides that are available and it's picture no. of those slides in which you can see yourself back there. mr. zapruder. that must be it because there's another couple back there--i took some from there and i was shooting some of the pictures to start my roll from the beginning. i didn't want to have a blank and i shot some, in fact, they have it--the federal bureau of investigation have those pictures. mr. liebeler. as you stood there on this abutment with your camera, the motorcade came down houston street and turned left on elm street, did it not? mr. zapruder. that's right. mr. liebeler. and it proceeded then down elm street toward the triple underpass; is that correct? mr. zapruder. that's correct. i started shooting--when the motorcade started coming in, i believe i started and wanted to get it coming in from houston street. mr. liebeler. tell us what happened as you took the pictures. mr. zapruder. well, as the car came in line almost--i believe it was almost in line--i was standing up here and i was shooting through a telephoto lens, which is a zoom lens and as it reached about--i imagine it was around here--i heard the first shot and i saw the president lean over and grab himself like this (holding his left chest area). mr. liebeler. grab himself on the front of his chest? mr. zapruder. right--something like that. in other words, he was sitting like this and waving and then after the shot he just went like that. mr. liebeler. he was sitting upright in the car and you heard the shot and you saw the president slump over? mr. zapruder. leaning--leaning toward the side of jacqueline. for a moment i thought it was, you know, like you say, "oh, he got me," when you hear a shot--you've heard these expressions and then i saw--i don't believe the president is going to make jokes like this, but before i had a chance to organize my mind, i heard a second shot and then i saw his head opened up and the blood and everything came out and i started--i can hardly talk about it [the witness crying]. mr. liebeler. that's all right, mr. zapruder, would you like a drink of water? why don't you step out and have a drink of water? mr. zapruder. i'm sorry--i'm ashamed of myself really, but i couldn't help it. mr. liebeler. nobody should ever be ashamed of feeling that way, mr. zapruder. i feel the same way myself. it was a terrible thing. let me go back now for just a moment and ask you how many shots you heard altogether. mr. zapruder. i thought i heard two, it could be three, because to my estimation i thought he was hit on the second--i really don't know. the whole thing that has been transpiring--it was very upsetting and as you see--i got a little better all the time and this came up again and it to me looked like the second shot, but i don't know. i never even heard a third shot. mr. liebeler. you didn't hear any shot after you saw him hit? mr. zapruder. i heard the second--after the first shot--i saw him leaning over and after the second shot--it's possible after what i saw, you know, then i started yelling, "they killed him, they killed him," and i just felt that somebody had ganged up on him and i was still shooting the pictures until he got under the underpass--i don't even know how i did it. and then, i didn't even remember how i got down from that abutment there, but there i was, i guess, and i was walking toward--back toward my office and screaming, "they killed him, they killed him," and the people that i met on the way didn't even know what happened and they kept yelling, "what happened, what happened, what happened?" it seemed that they had heard a shot but they didn't know exactly what had happened as the car sped away, and i kept on just yelling, "they killed him, they killed him, they killed him," and finally got to my office and my secretary--i told her to call the police or the secret service--i don't know what she was doing, and that's about all. i was very much upset. naturally, i couldn't imagine such a thing being done. i just went to my desk and stopped there until the police came and then we were required to get a place to develop the films. i knew i had something, i figured it might be of some help--i didn't know what. as to what happened--i remember the police were running behind me. there were police running right behind me. of course, they didn't realize yet, i guess, where the shot came from--that it came from that height. mr. liebeler. as you were standing on this abutment facing elm street, you say the police ran over behind the concrete structure behind you and down the railroad track behind that, is that right? mr. zapruder. after the shots? mr. liebeler. yes. mr. zapruder. yes--after the shots--yes, some of them were motorcycle cops--i guess they left their motorcycles running and they were running right behind me, of course, in the line of the shooting. i guess they thought it came from right behind me. mr. liebeler. did you have any impression as to the direction from which these shots came? mr. zapruder. no, i also thought it came from back of me. of course, you can't tell when something is in line--it could come from anywhere, but being i was here and he was hit on this line and he was hit right in the head--i saw it right around here, so it looked like it came from here and it could come from there. mr. liebeler. all right, as you stood here on the abutment and looked down into elm street, you saw the president hit on the right side of the head and you thought perhaps the shots had come from behind you? mr. zapruder. well, yes. mr. liebeler. from the direction behind you? mr. zapruder. yes, actually--i couldn't say what i thought at the moment, where they came from--after the impact of the tragedy was really what i saw and i started and i said--yelling, "they've killed him"--i assumed that they came from there, because as the police started running back of me, it looked like it came from the back of me. mr. liebeler. but you didn't form any opinion at that time as to what direction the shots did come from actually? mr. zapruder. no. mr. liebeler. and you indicated that they could have come also from behind or from any other direction except perhaps from the left, because they could have been from behind or even from the front. mr. zapruder. well, it could have been--in other words if you have a point--you could hit a point from any place, as far as that's concerned. i have no way of determining what direction the bullet was going. mr. liebeler. did you form any opinion about the direction from which the shots came by the sound, or were you just upset by the thing you had seen? mr. zapruder. no, there was too much reverberation. there was an echo which gave me a sound all over. in other words that square is kind of--it had a sound all over. mr. liebeler. and with the buildings around there, too? mr. zapruder. yes, the reverberation was such that a sound--as it would vibrate--it didn't vibrate so much but as to whether it was a backfire--in other words, i didn't from the first sound, from him leaning over--i couldn't think it was a shot, but of course, the second--i think it was the second shot. i don't know whether they proved anything--they claim he was hit--that the first bullet went through him and hit connally or something like that--i don't know how that is. mr. liebeler. well, there are many different theories about that. one thing i would like you to do now--we have a series--a little book here that is commission exhibit no. and it consists of a number of frames from motion pictures and i want to show you certain numbers of them which are important to our work and ask you if those look like they were taken from your film and if in fact you could recognize it as you look through this book that these are individual frame-by-frame pictures of the pictures that you took. mr. zapruder. yes, they are frame by frame and they weren't very clear, for the simple reason that on the telephoto lens it's good to take stills--when you move--did you ever have binoculars and every time you move everything is exaggerated in the move--that's one reason why they are kind of blurred--the movement. now, you want me to identify whether these are my pictures? mr. liebeler. yes, specifically, i first call your attention to no. . this is no. on the back of it and will you look at the whole book and identify it if you can and tell us that those are the pictures that--that those appear to be the pictures or copies of the pictures that you took from your motion picture camera? mr. zapruder. well, i would say this, they look like--if they were taken from the film i had--these are the ones. i mean, i don't know how to express myself. mr. liebeler. well, they were. mr. zapruder. well, it looks like them--that's when they turned in from elm street. is that it? i'm trying to visualize it. this is taking it from the opposite side of me, is it, where i would have been taking it, because i see this structure--i have been around there and--or these--this couldn't be here--where did they get this in there--how did they get this in there, if i was taking the pictures where did they get this in there? that shouldn't be there. mr. liebeler. this is the thing back up behind on dealy plaza, i think, isn't it? mr. zapruder. they have one there, too? mr. liebeler. yes, i think there is. now, if you will look at hudson exhibit no. , you will see that there is some kind of concrete structure there and is a different kind from that figure. it has bigger holes in it. mr. zapruder. that's right--in the back of this here, that's where it is--that's what i thought it was--that's where i got mixed up. mr. liebeler. you thought that the concrete latticework on the individual pictures in commission exhibit no. ---- mr. zapruder. now i see it--that's where they have moved now the flowers and all that. mr. liebeler. yes--i have to state this for the record--so they can understand what we are talking about--you confused it with the concrete lattice work shown in the background in the individual photographs in commission exhibit no. , with the larger and obviously different concrete structure in the background of hudson exhibit no. ? mr. zapruder. yes, that--there is elm street there--this is a corner. mr. liebeler. now, specifically here--let me show you the ones that have been numbered and and see if you can recognize those. this is here that we are looking at now--of commission exhibit no. . mr. zapruder. yes. this is where he came in from houston street and turned there. mr. liebeler. yes; and they are going down elm street now? mr. zapruder. yes; this is before--this shouldn't be there--the shot wasn't fired, was it? you can't tell from here? mr. liebeler. (no response). mr. zapruder. i believe it was closer down here where it happened. of course, on the film they could see better but you take an millimeter and you enlarge it in color or in black and white, you lose a lot of detail. i wish i had an enlarger here for you. mr. liebeler. in any event, frame no. does look like it's one of the frames, sir? mr. zapruder. yes. mr. liebeler. and is similar also? mr. zapruder. yes. mr. liebeler. now, i've got a list of them here that i want to ask you about--picture and turn on over to this picture. it appears that a sign starts to come in the picture--there was a sign in the picture. mr. zapruder. yes; there were signs there also and trees and somehow--i told them i was going to get the whole view and i must have. mr. liebeler. but the sign was in the way? mr. zapruder. yes; but i must have neglected one part--i know what has happened--i think this was after that happened--something had happened. mr. liebeler. do you remember when you looked at your pictures yourself, do you remember that there was a sign that does appear between the camera and the motorcade itself and you can see the motorcade for a while and the sign comes in the view? mr. zapruder. that's right. mr. liebeler. and the motorcade comes behind it. now, what about picture no. --however--there is no no. in here. mr. zapruder. no. mr. liebeler. how about no. ? now, in no. you can see the president's car coming out from behind the sign. mr. zapruder. yes. mr. liebeler. and you can see governor connally right there in that center seat, i believe? mr. zapruder. yes; governor connally--yes--these are all the same pictures--i remember the car was kind of buried and i was kind of low and i don't know how i got that view--i didn't get just the full view of the shot. mr. liebeler. let's turn to and there the car is coming further out from behind the sign. mr. zapruder. yes. mr. liebeler. is that still the same part of the sequence? mr. zapruder. yes. mr. liebeler. you can now see the president for the first time. mr. zapruder. yes; that's the president. mr. liebeler. the president appears to have his hand up by his throat as he is just coming from behind the sign. mr. zapruder. yes; it looks like he was hit--it seems--there--somewhere behind the sign. you see, he is still sitting upright. mr. liebeler. yes; he's sitting up and holding his hand up. mr. zapruder. do we have the sequence--the next frames? mr. liebeler. yes; it will be no. and his hand comes up even more and he starts to move a little to his left. mr. zapruder. apparently. and they started speeding the car then to--but he is still sitting up here. is that still the president here? mr. liebeler. yes; in picture no. --he still appears to have his hand up and in no. it's even more pronounced. mr. zapruder. yes. mr. liebeler. as the car keeps coming up from behind and in picture he has raised both hands up. mr. zapruder. it looks to me like he went like this--did he go to his throat--i don't remember--i thought he went like this [holding both hands on the left side of his chest]. did it show? mr. liebeler. let's turn over to picture here--these still appear to be the same sequence of pictures, do they not? mr. zapruder. yes; you get about per second and i think my camera was moving a little fast, maybe frames per second, you see, we have a lot of pictures on there. mr. liebeler. and is there. mr. zapruder. yes; we've got that. mr. liebeler. in both hands are up by his throat there or up to the top of his chest and mrs. kennedy is looking at him. mr. zapruder. to me it looks like it. mr. liebeler. you mean it looks to you as though he moved a little more sharply perhaps? mr. zapruder. toward her--there are so many frames, of course, this is probably his first reaction, but he leaned over--it would be after the shot was fired, after i heard a sound, he went like this [leaning to the left and holding both hands to the left side of his chest]. mr. liebeler. he moved over to his left and pulled his hands there? mr. zapruder. yes; he moved to the left and pulled his hands somewhat in this direction. mr. liebeler. does picture appear to be one of the pictures that was taken from your sequence? mr. zapruder. yes. mr. liebeler. how about --let's turn over to and there he has turned his head toward the left a little bit more. mr. zapruder. there's only about frames--they are so close. mr. liebeler. five frames? mr. zapruder. five frames is nothing--i believe. mr. liebeler. how about ? mr. zapruder. no. --i just wonder if it was the motion that he went back with that i don't remember--it looks like he has got his hand on his head--i don't remember seeing that. of course, the pictures would show. mr. liebeler. yes; when you pick one of them out it's hard to break it down and pick them out. mr. zapruder. yes; it's hard. we run them in single frames--and to get the main shot--it's hard. mr. liebeler. now, let's turn over to picture --these all do look like they are from your film? mr. zapruder. yes; they are--i know this--i have seen it so many times. in fact, i used to have nightmares. the thing would come every night--i wake up and see this. mr. liebeler. what about --what about that one? mr. zapruder. that's still the same series. mr. liebeler. that's still the same series--they keep moving along. mr. zapruder. yes. mr. liebeler. and let's look at no. --as we go along here--then he does start moving sharply to the left. mr. zapruder. yes; when you take it frame by frame, it could have been just or seconds, but the impression was that he was leaning over and not just sitting there and looking over that and grabbing himself at the left side. mr. liebeler. yes; moving toward mrs. kennedy. mr. zapruder. that's what impressed me. now, what number are you on? mr. liebeler. --you remember that one? mr. zapruder. that was--that was the horrible one. mr. liebeler. it appears to you then, that this book of pictures here as you look through it, are your pictures? mr. zapruder. yes. mr. liebeler. now, mr. zapruder, after you had the film developed i understand mr. sorrels from the secret service came over and helped you get the films developed and you gave two copies of your films to mr. sorrels, is that correct? mr. zapruder. yes. one we have sent to washington the same night and one went over for the viewers of the fbi on ervay street. mr. liebeler. that's the secret service? mr. zapruder. the secret service--i brought one roll there and they told me to dispatch it by army plane or i don't know what they had done with it but it was supposed to have gone to washington and one of them, i believe, remained here with mr. sorrels. he came to my office quite a few times to show them to different people. mr. liebeler. now, i understand that you, yourself, retained the original film? mr. zapruder. no; i don't have that at all--i don't have any at all. they were sold to time and life magazines. mr. liebeler. you sold that to life magazine? mr. zapruder. yes. mr. liebeler. the commission is interested in one aspect of this and i would like to ask you if you would mind telling us how much they paid you for that film. mr. zapruder. for the film? mr. liebeler. yes. mr. zapruder. well, i just wonder whether i should answer it or not because it involves a lot of things and it's not one price--it's a question of how they are going to use it, are they going to use it or are they not going to use it, so i will say i really don't know how to answer that. mr. liebeler. well, i am not going to even urge you to answer the question. we will ask it and if you would rather not answer it--the commission feels it would be helpful. mr. zapruder. i received $ , , as you know, and i have given that to the firemen's and policemen's benevolence with a suggestion for mrs. tippit. you know that? mr. liebeler. i don't know that--you received $ , ? mr. zapruder. $ , was paid and i have given it to the firemen's and policemen's fund. mr. liebeler. you gave the whole $ , ? mr. zapruder. yes. this was all over the world. i got letters from all over the world and newspapers--i mean letters from all over the world. it was all over the world--i am surprised--that you don't know it--i don't like to talk about it too much. mr. liebeler. we appreciate your answer very much. mr. zapruder. i haven't done anything, the way i have given it, at a time like this. mr. liebeler. i want to tell you, you may not be aware of it yourself, but i want to tell you that your film has been one of the most helpful things to the work of the commission that we could possibly have had because it has enabled us to study the various positions of the people in the car and to determine by comparing it with the reenactment--by comparing it to the view from the window of the building, to develop with a fair degree of accuracy the facts here. mr. zapruder. i understand--and i am willing to be helpful but i am sorry it had to be on an occasion like this. i am willing to be helpful but i wish this would never have happened. mr. liebeler. yes; that's right. mr. zapruder. i know they have taken my camera to washington. mr. liebeler. it was a bell & howell camera, isn't that right? mr. zapruder. that's right. mr. liebeler. and you turned it over to the fbi and they have made tests on it? mr. zapruder. yes; and then bell & howell wanted it for their archives and i thought they were through with it and let them have it. in return, they gave me, not for my personal use, but a sound projector which was given to the golden age group. it's a place where old folks have a home. i asked them to donate something. i didn't want the camera. i didn't want anything for myself. then the fbi wanted the camera again and i referred them to the bell & howell people. mr. liebeler. yes; the fbi asked for the camera back because the commission wanted to determine whether there was any difference in the frame speed as the camera unwound itself, as it went along. mr. zapruder. well, they claimed they told me it was about frames fast--instead of it was frames and they told me it was about frames fast in the speed and they told me that the time between the rapid shots, as i understand, that was determined--the length of time it took to the second one and that they were very fast and they claim it has proven it could be done by man. you know there was indication there were two? mr. liebeler. your films were extremely helpful to the work of the commission, mr. zapruder. mr. zapruder. i am only sorry i broke down--i didn't know i was going to do it. mr. liebeler. mr. zapruder, i want to thank you very much, for the commission, for coming down. it has been very helpful. mr. zapruder. well, i am ashamed of myself. i didn't know i was going to break down and for a man to--but it was a tragic thing, and when you started asking me that, and i saw the thing all over again, and it was an awful thing--i know very few people who had seen it like that--it was an awful thing and i loved the president, and to see that happen before my eyes--his head just opened up and shot down like a dog--it leaves a very, very deep sentimental impression with you; it's terrible. mr. liebeler. well, you don't have to feel ashamed about that at all, and thank you very much. i enjoyed meeting you very much. mr. zapruder. all right, any time you want some more help you can call on me and i will be glad to come in. mr. liebeler. all right, thank you a lot. mr. zapruder. goodbye. testimony of perdue william lawrence the testimony of perdue william lawrence was taken at : p.m., on july , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas. tex., by mr. burt w. griffin, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. griffin. my name is burt griffin, and i am a member of the general counsel's staff of the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy, and the commission has been set up by executive order of president johnson and a joint resolution of congress. these two official acts have directed the commission to investigate into the assassination of president kennedy and the death of lee harvey oswald, to evaluate all the facts we find and report back to president johnson upon them. we have asked you to come here in particular this evening, captain lawrence, because we are interested in the security precautions that were taken both in connection with the protection of president kennedy and in the prospective transfer of lee harvey oswald to the county jail. i might say that there are a set of rules and regulations that have been promulgated by the commission and under these rules and regulations i have been designated to take your deposition. you are entitled to receive a written notice days in advance from the commission. it has been the practice with all of the police officers who have testified that we have simply written a letter to chief curry and he has been good enough to make you people available. i assume that you haven't received proper notice, and i will ask you at this time if you are willing to waive that notice? captain lawrence. certainly. mr. griffin. since you are willing to waive the notice, if you will raise your right hand i will administer the oath to you. do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? captain lawrence. i do. mr. griffin. would you state your full name for the record, please? captain lawrence. not my initials--my full name? mr. griffin. your full name. captain lawrence. perdue [spelling]. p-e-r-d-u-e william lawrence [spelling], l-a-w-r-e-n-c-e. mr. griffin. where do you live, mr. lawrence? captain lawrence. south clinton. mr. griffin. when were you born? captain lawrence. in august-- --august . mr. griffin. are you employed with the dallas police department? captain lawrence. i am. mr. griffin. and what is your rank? captain lawrence. captain of police. mr. griffin. and how long have you been with the police department? captain lawrence. nineteen years. mr. griffin. were you captain of police on november , ? captain lawrence. i was. mr. griffin. were you in charge of any particular department? captain lawrence. traffic at this particular time. i am in charge of the accident prevention bureau of the dallas police department, but my specific assignment was traffic control for the presidential motorcade. mr. griffin. was this a special -day assignment that you had? captain lawrence. well, in this particular case--it was for this particular occasion. mr. griffin. was there any other person in the department who regularly was concerned with what you call traffic control? captain lawrence. yes; capt. r. a. thompson. mr. griffin. is there any reason why you handled the traffic control responsibilities for the presidential motorcade rather than captain thompson? captain lawrence. none that i know of; none that i can think of except that chief batchelor saw me and said, "i want you to get together with lieutenant southard." lieutenant southard works for captain thompson and we were to use my motorcycle officers and his corner men, so, because of the motorcade part of it, i assume that this was the reason that it was turned over to me. normally on parade or a special assignment and such, this is under the jurisdiction of captain thompson, but because of the escort part of it, i am assuming that this was why it was given to me. i would like to also add that captain thompson and i work evenings on alternate friday and saturday nights, and i was scheduled to work daytime hours on friday, november , and this may also be a reason i was given this particular assignment. captain thompson did work evenings on friday, november , , and saturday, november , . mr. griffin. had you participated in other traffic control projects in the past? captain lawrence. yes; i had. mr. griffin. had you ever been involved in one that involved the president of the united states or any other important official who required special protection? captain lawrence. no; i had not. mr. griffin. in your experience in the dallas police department, had there ever been a time when there had been a president or an important person who had come through who required special protection? captain lawrence. yes; but not in which i was directly assigned to any duties. when president kennedy came to town to visit mr. rayburn at baylor hospital, lieutenant curtis was in charge of that detail and i don't know if i was on a day off or what it was, but i was not in charge of that detail at all. i made none of those arrangements. mr. griffin. from whom did you receive your instructions in connection with the duties that you were to carry out? captain lawrence. my immediate superior was deputy chief r. h. lunday, and i received my instructions from chief lunday and asst. chief batchelor; both of them. mr. griffin. when were you first told that you were to be in charge of this traffic control? captain lawrence. the first day was on a tuesday--november . mr. griffin. and who told you at that time? captain lawrence. chief batchelor. mr. griffin. and what did chief batchelor tell you at that time that your responsibilities would be? captain lawrence. he told me he wanted me to go over this route and to start working with the assignments of men to the intersections on the motorcade route, and he said that he had gone over this route and handed me a list of intersections that he wanted covered and the amount of men he wanted on each intersection and the reason he wanted more than one or two at certain intersections was because of the turning movements of the motorcade, but he also wanted assignments made to certain overpasses and told me the number of men that he would like to have stationed on the overpasses. mr. griffin. did he tell you the names of the particular men he wanted on the overpass? captain lawrence. he gave me the names of no men. he told me to make the assignments, and when he handed me this list, he was either with chief lunday or i went immediately to chief lunday and asked for the assistance of lt. w. f. southard because he--his men would be directly involved also in these assignments. mr. griffin. i notice you have a list in your hand. is that the list chief batchelor gave you? captain lawrence. that's the list that chief batchelor gave me. mr. griffin. would you mind if we marked this and returned this for our file? captain lawrence. no; not a bit. i would like to add that it was not requested that i bring any papers with me. i did bring with me some original personnel assignment notes for the purpose of refreshing my memory, and i see no reason why my superiors would object to any requests made by this committee. mr. griffin. let me now turn this over and i will state for the record that it consists of five small white sheets of paper, roughly - / by inches in size, and there are a number of handwritten notations on it and i'm going to mark this on the back. captain lawrence. i believe this to be the handwriting of chief batchelor. mr. griffin. i'm going to mark this capt. p. w. lawrence deposition, july , , exhibit no. . in handing this memo to you, did chief batchelor say anything to you about what the men on the overpass were supposed to do? captain lawrence. he was stationing the men on the overpass to see that no one else came onto the overpass so that no one would be over the motorcade when the president passed under it. mr. griffin. other than stationing people at intersections, were you given any instructions as to stationing men in between blocks? captain lawrence. not at that time. mr. griffin. now, after the th of november did you later receive further instructions from your superiors? captain lawrence. yes, sir, i did. mr. griffin. when did you next receive instructions? captain lawrence. i next received instructions well, during the week we discussed this with chief lunday and assistant chief batchelor--certain assignments as far as the motorcycle escorts were concerned, and not directly at that time regarding stationing of any men on any particular corner. i might add that when lieutenant southard and i went over this route, we found one intersection open and which was on record street, which raised our total--this is my writing here [indicating]. mr. griffin. yes, this is at the bottom of the second page and you have written in the word "record." captain lawrence. that's right--that's my handwriting and during that week i was next told, of course, to contact other people regarding the route connected with the motorcade to see that no trains would be coming across at the time that the presidential motorcade was passing through. mr. griffin. these were grade crossings that you are talking about? captain lawrence. grade crossing--yes. mr. griffin. at the time of your first meeting with chief batchelor were you given any special instructions about the protection of the president? captain lawrence. none. mr. griffin. when was the next time you received some instructions from one of your superiors? captain lawrence. the next time was, to the best of my knowledge, the motorcade assignments--possibly days before the president arrived--i asked how we would escort this motorcade. mr. griffin. and with whom did you discuss that? captain lawrence. chief lunday and chief batchelor. mr. griffin. was anybody from the secret service present at that time? captain lawrence. not at that time--no. mr. griffin. what were you told about the purpose of the officers that were being provided, if anything? captain lawrence. i was told that there would be these lead motorcycle officers, and that we would also have these other officers alongside the president's car and the vice president's car, and some of the others that would be in the motorcade, and approximately how many officers would be needed for the escort, and at that time i had prepared a list of solo motorcycle officers, this included three solo sergeants. i was also instructed that about this motorcade--that when it reached stemmons expressway, chief batchelor told me that he wanted a solo motorcycle officer in each traffic lane, each of the five traffic lanes waiting for the motorcade, so that no vehicles, on stemmons expressway would pass the motorcade at all and he wanted these solo motorcycle officers to pull away from the escort and get up there on stemmons freeway and block the traffic, and some of these officers, he stated, would pull past the presidential car. mr. griffin. would this include blocking oncoming traffic? captain lawrence. this would stop all oncoming traffic on stemmons freeway. mr. griffin. all the way to the trade mart? captain lawrence. no, sir--this would stop all traffic that would be northbound on stemmons, on--all northbound traffic on stemmons expressway, in the five lanes of traffic, so when the motorcade came onto the freeway, that no cars would be able to pass it, that the motorcycle officers would stop the traffic, and then the motorcycle officers after all the motorcade was headed for the trade mart, that then these motorcycle officers would slowly move up, but they would keep all the traffic behind--all the northbound traffic. mr. griffin. but, the southbound traffic would be permitted to run in the southbound lanes? captain lawrence. that's right. mr. griffin. when did that conversation take place? captain lawrence. that conversation took place about the th of november-- days before. mr. griffin. now, did you receive another set of instructions or orders after that? captain lawrence. yes; on the evening of november , this was the first time that i had attended any security meeting at all in regards to this motorcade. at approximately p.m. i was told to report to the conference room on the third floor, and when i arrived at the conference room the deputy chiefs were in there, there were members of the secret service--mr. sorrels, captain gannaway, captain souter of radio patrol, and capt. glen king, deputy chiefs, assistant chiefs, and chief curry, and one gentleman, who i assume was in charge of the security for the secret service. this was the first time i had attended any conferences in regard to the security of this escort, and i listened in on most of the discussion and i heard one of the secret service men say that president kennedy did not desire any motorcycle officer directly on each side of him, between him and the crowd, but he would want the officers to the rear. this conversation i overheard as chief batchelor was using a blackboard showing how he planned to handle this--how plans had been made to cover the escort. mr. griffin. was anything said in that meeting about any special precautions that should be taken in connection with protecting the president? captain lawrence. yes; there was some discussion that centered more around the security down at the trade mart than any other place and captain gannaway was in charge of the security in that area, and then chief stevenson, i believe, was there, and they mentioned that they would have detectives stationed along the route--along the motorcade route, especially in the downtown area. mr. griffin. and what were they to be looking for? captain lawrence. they were taking care of security, all right, but they did not go into any discussion in my presence. i assume that this had all been, discussed earlier, in fact, when i was called up there, these people were already meeting. mr. griffin. did you ever receive any instructions as to what the men were to do whom you stationed at the various intersections and elsewhere along the route? captain lawrence. yes; i discussed this with chief lunday two or three times and chief batchelor two or three times before this meeting ever took place and we discussed the fact that maybe some demonstrators with placards might show up and that the officers stationed along the route should be instructed to be on the alert for any persons that might throw anything or make any movement that might endanger the president at all, and if there were any incident of that nature, that the person would be arrested immediately. mr. griffin. was there any discussion between you and your superior officers about watching the buildings and windows in the buildings or the tops of the buildings? captain lawrence. no, no instructions were given to me about my men watching the buildings--no, so, mine were more crowd control instructions--to watch the crowds, to keep them back, and to block off the traffic and to block off the streets on the approach of the motorcade and not to let them by--and to keep the crowds back. mr. griffin. were there other men who were going to have other responsibilities? captain lawrence. yes, it was my understanding that the other responsibilities in regard to security were to be handled by the special service bureau and the members of the criminal investigation division. mr. griffin. and were they going to be stationed along the routes? captain lawrence. it was my understanding that they would be. mr. griffin. were you ever informed as to how many men would be in each particular location? captain lawrence. i was not. mr. griffin. with specific reference to dealey plaza and the area of elm and houston and the school book depository, did you have any idea of how many secret service or detective bureau people or cid people would be in that area? captain lawrence. i did not. mr. griffin. did you ever receive any advice or instructions from any member of the secret service about watching buildings or performing other functions other than the normal crowd controls which you have just mentioned? captain lawrence. i did not. mr. griffin. when you met with the secret service, what do you recall that the secret service did discuss? captain lawrence. i sat in on the discussion and i did not participate in any at all, and from what i heard there would be sufficient personnel inside the trade mart--they were discussing this, and these detectives' assignments were not the ones that i was at that time primarily instructed in, so--i know that they had made some elaborate precautions, which no one discussed with me, but i don't remember all of the conversation that went on regarding that. i was particularly interested in traffic assignments and these were the ones that i was listening for. mr. griffin. was there ever any discussion that you heard about taking precautions designed to prevent some sort of assault on the president that would be more severe than simply placards, picketing, and people throwing rotten eggs and vegetables, and things like that? captain lawrence. not to my knowledge, other than the fact that the secret service man in there--when it was mentioned about these motorcycle officers alongside the president's car, he said, "no, these officers should be back and if any people started a rush toward the car, if there was any movement at all where the president was endangered in any way, these officers would be in a position to gun their motors and get between them and the presidential car," and he mentioned, of course, the security and safety of the president and those words were mentioned. mr. griffin. but was that concept of the security and the safety of the president spelled out in any certain details? captain lawrence. not to my knowledge. now, you see, i'm not familiar with some of the things that were discussed with the other bureau commanders. now, i didn't know until that time who was going to be in charge at the trade mart. mr. griffin. what time is that that you have reference to? captain lawrence. sometime between and p.m. on november . i knew at that time that captain souter would be in charge, and when i was so advised, after this meeting i asked souter if i could meet him down at the trade mart, and discuss how the motorcade would come into the trade mart, and they had discussed also about keeping an area open down there and it had also been discussed with me--i might add one thing that i had forgotten to say before--that there would be two officers remain with the presidential car while he was in the trade mart. this was told to me by assistant chief batchelor--to the best of my knowledge. after this conference, i asked captain souter if i could meet him down at the trade mart and he said he would be down there and then i called sgt. s. q. bellah [spelling] b-e-l-l-a-h. i called him on the phone at home and asked him if he could meet me down there because he was going to be the leading solo motorcycle sergeant. he met me at the trade mart with stavis ellis, another solo motorcycle sergeant, who was going to be leading the presidential motorcade and i met with both of them down there on the evening of the st, so that i would know how they would come in the area and how they were to be escorted around in the area. mr. griffin. i take it from what you said, that your principal concern then was keeping the motorcade moving smoothly? captain lawrence. that's right. mr. griffin. and there was no special attention brought on your part to the question of actually protecting the president other than from some impediment to the actual movement of the automobile. captain lawrence. mainly--my understanding was mainly that my assignment was for crowd control and, of course, security would be involved in it, as far as anyone making any movements in the crowd. mr. griffin. now, did you prepare a list of the assignments that you gave in stationing your men along the route? captain lawrence. i did and i might add another thing that i have overlooked here, that chief batchelor had also instructed me to have one man on a three-wheel motorcycle--to station this one man over the stemmons overpass at industrial, to make sure that no car stopped and no people stopped there who would be in a position to throw anything down when the motorcade came off of stemmons freeway to make its turn onto industrial, and there would be a three-wheeler up there and he had specifically instructed me on that, which to me was security as well too. mr. griffin. were you given any general instructions to go out and look along the route for special security problems that might arise along the route? captain lawrence. no; i was not, but i did do this. mr. griffin. what did you do in that regard? captain lawrence. this is getting ahead, but after the detail was put out in the detail room and i had talked to the motorcycle officers and the motorcade officers and had given them their instructions, i then went out to love field with maj. george tropolis of the police reserves who is in charge of the police reserves and awaited the arrival of the president and to see that all the motorcycle officers were at the proper location, i had already given a copy of the detail to each one of the sergeants and their instructions and when we were out there at the airport, the weather cleared up and the officers put their raincoats, of course, in the motorcycle saddlebags and when the presidential plane arrived and president kennedy got off of the plane, i saw that there was going to be a brief ceremony there, and i knew that chief lumpkin was going to--i had been told was going to be ahead of this motorcade--i got in my car and tried to be a few blocks ahead of him to make sure that everybody was on their assignments, and, of course, the crowd, the huge crowd en route surprised me, especially in the residential area, that all the people had turned out to see the president. i didn't expect a crowd this big, and, of course, we had officers stationed at many intersections along the route, but not at every intersection until we got to the downtown area. not every intersection was covered, but as i went along the route, this didn't look like it was necessary because the crowds already had blocked the streets, and no motor vehicle could have crossed some of these streets. as i came up to many of these intersections--i slowed my car down and i was in uniform, but i was driving a plain car which i drive, and i told the officers to keep the traffic in back of me moving and not let any vehicles cross because i could hear chief curry on channel giving the location of the motorcade from time to time, and i knew a few blocks ahead of him would be chief lumpkin, and i knew that i would have to stay considerably ahead of him. although i was not given this assignment--i proceeded on this route, and i followed it on down to the trade mart. mr. griffin. let's go back a little bit and let me ask you--when did you first give instructions to the men who were actually stationed along the route as to what they should do? captain lawrence. i gave them those instructions on the morning of november and i had with me at the time--i had the detail with me and some notes that i had written. i first told the men the approximate time of the arrival of the president's plane at love field. then, i went over the route that the motorcade would take to the trade mart and then the approximate time they were scheduled to be at the trade mart and then to leave for love field. i stated that there would be some assignments which we would call assignment no. , assignment no. and assignment no. . some officers would only have one assignment and some would have two and some would have three, and that these assignments would be given to them by lieutenant southard, that there would be supervisors stationed along the route, cruising the route, and would be able to assist them. i then covered the supervisory assignments, telling them where these sergeants would be stationed along the route, and if anything came up they were to contact them. mr. griffin. the men you assigned, from the instructions that you gave them, what would you expect that these men would do besides simply keep people from running out into the motorcade of cars? captain lawrence. they are crowd control--for the motorcade to move and i also gave the men instructions that it would be no violation--for persons to carry placards, that we expected very little of this, but that they were to be alert to any unusual movements in the crowd so that no one threw anything at the president, that there would be no repetition of the ambassador stevenson incident, that president kennedy was the president of the united states and entitled to the courtesy and protection of this office, and it was their duty to see that this was done, and if there were any violations of the law of any type, that they would arrest individuals immediately, and these were the specific instructions. mr. griffin. now, if a man, captain, one of your men was placed at a station--was actually standing out there and acting pursuant to these orders, first of all, let me ask you what direction would he be looking; would he be looking toward the street or would he be turned around and facing the crowd? captain lawrence. he would either be facing the crowd or facing the street, depending on the necessity at that time. he was given no specific instructions except that he was not told specifically that he would face the crowd on the traffic assignments, but he was told that he was to watch the crowd, so i wouldn't say that the man--that all of the men on the route were specifically instructed to face the crowd. i gave them no such instructions. mr. griffin. as you drove down the route preceding the motorcade, did you observe just exactly what these men were doing? captain lawrence. yes; most of the men were watching the oncoming traffic and keeping it moving. they were keeping this oncoming traffic moving. some of the men were trying to push the crowd back, especially in the downtown area. there were many of them facing the crowds there and trying to push the crowds back, and this was, i imagine, about a mile ahead of the motorcade. mr. griffin. as a practical matter--stationing as you did two men at each intersection generally--could two men have effectively prevented anyone who was bent upon attacking the president, could they have effectively prevented him from rushing out and doing something? captain lawrence. if they saw them in time, but two men, in as large a crowd as that--these men had all they could handle, with as large a crowd as we had turn out for that motorcade. it was a full-time job keeping the crowd back, and this was what the officers were trying to do. mr. griffin. have you given any thought, or do you have any suggestions as to how a police department the size of the dallas police department could have stationed more men along the route so that they could have effectively--not only kept the crowd back but could have been effectively on the lookout for people who might want to rush out and do something? captain lawrence. well, looking back on it, i would say, with the manpower that we had for this particular job and the crowd that turned out, that without the use of precautions, these men would have a very difficult time keeping a crowd back like that. this crowd was an enthusiastic crowd, as you know, as you probably have heard many times, and it was a bigger crowd than i expected. mr. griffin. is it practical for a city the size of dallas to use barricades or ropes along the motorcade, the length of the one that the president traveled? captain lawrence. well, with the length of this motorcade, i don't believe that we could have on this short a notice, and this is my opinion. we would have to go to another source to get sufficient barricades to handle it, because i don't think we have that many barricades--i don't think that many barricades would be available for a motorcade as long as this one. mr. griffin. does the police department maintain barricades? captain lawrence. no; the barricades are obtained from the public works department. we have been able to request barricades to barricade off streets at certain events on holidays and parks. we have asked for barricades and we have always received barricades. mr. griffin. did you give any specific instructions to your men with respect to watching windows? captain lawrence. no. mr. griffin. did you give any specific instructions to the people who were stationed along elm and houston at the intersection of elm and houston, the man at houston in particular, did you direct any particular attention to those men who were stationed there? captain lawrence. no; i did not make the individual assignments, but as i said, the only thing i did was make these remarks as to these particular assignments in stating that they would be made by these officers, and, of course, there were some assignments made in this area and there were also some assignments made to the overpass. mr. griffin. was there anything that would be in the general orders or the general background and training of the police officers who were stationed along this route which would make the individual police officer believe that it was his responsibility to watch the windows of buildings? captain lawrence. i don't recall any specific instructions of that kind ever being given on an assignment of this type, because--again--as i said, with the manpower that was assigned and the crowd they had to control, that the officer had all he could take care of in maintaining crowd control of the people on the streets and watching the crowd there. i am talking about the men that were assigned for these specific assignments here. i assume that some instructions have been given to some members of the cid, the criminal investigation division, and to the men from the special service bureau, and the men specifically assigned to security duties instead of traffic duties. it would be my assumption that this was a part of the assignments given. mr. griffin. would the duties of the men at the intersections be so burdensome prior to the time that the motorcade actually arrived that they couldn't keep their eyes on the windows and other places such as that? in other words, did they have anything to do of substance until shortly before the motorcade arrived? captain lawrence. they had everything they could do to take care of the crowds when i came through there before the president's motorcade--keeping the crowds back, in fact, when i was listening on channel i heard inspector sawyer asking for more help for men downtown to try to keep the crowds back so the motorcade could get through there. mr. griffin. when an officer is at an intersection for the purpose of crowd control, do his problems begin as soon as the crowd begins to form, regardless of how long it is before the president is going to arrive, or does the problem only become a substantial one when he realizes the president is minutes away? captain lawrence. i think when he first goes on assignment, that's when he's prepared to handle the crowd. mr. griffin. well, is there a danger that the crowd is going to move out into the street at any point as soon as it gets large enough where the people start to push and shove? captain lawrence. this did happen in the downtown area and this was substantially before the president's car actually arrived. this is why, i believe, and i am assuming, because i was ahead of this motorcade, but i heard chief curry ask these motorcycle officers that were way up ahead to drop back, and some of them that were alongside and to the rear of the president, to pull up alongside his car, and chief curry had some of these motorcycle officers that were supposed to be about a couple of blocks ahead of this motorcade, he asked them to drop back. he asked the lead motorcycles that were supposed to be a half block ahead of the escort--he asked them to drop back. mr. griffin. well, is it fair to say that without specific instructions, that an officer would not watch the windows of buildings? he would not do it as a result of routine orders that prevail in the police department and his general training. captain lawrence. i would say in a case like this that an officer should do this and this should be part of his responsibility on the job, but i also have to say he was not given any specific instructions to do that as far as buildings were concerned, but i'm talking about the men assigned to this traffic assignment. mr. griffin. are there any other specific instructions besides watching the windows of buildings that, as a result of your experience on november , you think should be given to police officers who have traffic assignments? captain lawrence. as a result of what happened on november , i believe that where a head of state, the president of the united states, comes to dallas and is in a motorcade or a parade, that the streets should be barricaded or roped off and that officers--more officers than were stationed be stationed along the route to control the crowd. i mean, of course, this is looking back--as i told you before--there were more people along the route--in fact, i was surprised--they had even stopped their cars all along stemmons freeway. mr. griffin. of course, we are trying to benefit from hindsight, when i asked you if in looking back you could make some suggestions for the future. captain lawrence. that's right. mr. griffin. could a police force the size of the dallas police force have found more officers to man the route? captain lawrence. with a route as long as this, i doubt that they could have, because some of these officers were given second and third assignments and this motorcade route, as long as it was, was in my opinion--this was too long of a motorcade route to give the proper security, and our department wasn't big enough to handle an event--of course, this is hindsight again--and an event like this with a route as long as this to cover all of the cross streets, because we certainly didn't cover all of the cross streets along the route except the downtown area. we covered some of the main ones and there were other streets that were not covered and the people themselves block the streets for the motorcade. mr. griffin. you have with you here a list of the assignments you made on november ? captain lawrence. yes; i do. mr. griffin. could you give that to us so we can mark it for identification? captain lawrence. yes, sir; would you mind me explaining a couple of them? mr. griffin. no; not at all, if you think it is necessary. captain lawrence. there were some changes made. mr. griffin. i am going to mark this as capt. w. p. lawrence deposition, july , , exhibit no. . do you want to indicate what clarification you would make in the assignments that are shown on exhibit no. ? captain lawrence. yes; on the morning of november , the streets were still wet and it was raining that morning and i talked to asst. chief batchelor about some of the motorcade assignments and he agreed with me that no car, no motorcycle officer, should pass the president's car, so we reassigned some officers indicated by asterisks on this detail to cover the stemmons freeway traffic lanes to the rear of the escort to prevent any vehicles from passing the presidental party, and that's shown on the detail. also, as i say--you can see the asterisks here beside these officers and they were changed. also, i felt that because of the curvature of stemmons freeway and these people coming over a crest and around a curve--that they would be on top of these motorcycle officers and would not have warning enough. i discussed placing a couple of the three-wheel motorcycle officers up further on stemmons expressway, which would be back farther south, so that when they saw from the top of stemmons expressway this motorcade approaching, they could start stopping the traffic before it came around the curve and down the hill because of the speed. for this reason, two officers were stationed--their assignment was changed and they were placed--they were stationed up on stemmons freeway for the purpose of starting to stop this traffic themselves. mr. griffin. is there anything else on there that you think should be clarified? captain lawrence. yes; on the evening--i'm going back a day, but on the evening of november , i was handed a list of additional men from the third patrol platoon to work traffic assignments. here is the list--you can have this list. mr. griffin. all right. captain lawrence. this necessitated me making some changes so that the three-wheel motorcycle officers could be taken off of corner assignments and placed on patrol assignments in the downtown area, and those assignments, or some of those patrol assignments are shown on the last page of this. mr. griffin. all right. captain lawrence. the changes you can see were made in ink. there was one particular assignment, on page , that we had eliminated because we understood that the highland park police would cover lemmon and loma alto and then when these additional men were given to us, two officers were placed back on this assignment. mr. griffin. i have marked the additional list of men, which list you received on november , as capt. p. w. lawrence, july , , exhibit no. . let me ask you some specific questions about it--about the men who were stationed in the area of dealey plaza. did you question any of these men after the president was shot to determine whether or not they had seen anyone in the windows of the texas school book depository building? captain lawrence. yes; however, when i questioned the men--the men had already been--one man that i questioned had already been questioned by mr. sorrels and this would be officer j. e. murphy and two other men that i questioned were officers j. w. foster and j. c. white. i questioned j. w. foster regarding the men that were alongside him on the overpass, on the triple underpass where the president was to go. mr. griffin. did you question sergeant harkness? captain lawrence. no; i didn't question sergeant harkness. mr. griffin. did you question officer king--w. k. king? captain lawrence. no. mr. griffin. did you question officer j. b. allen? captain lawrence. no. mr. griffin. did you question officer w. h. denham? captain lawrence. no. mr. griffin. or officer w. e. barnett? captain lawrence. no. mr. griffin. officer j. m. smith? captain lawrence. no; i did not. mr. griffin. officer e. l. smith? captain lawrence. no; i did not. mr. griffin. do you know of anyone in the police department who questioned those men after the assassination to determine whether or not they had been observing the windows of the texas school book depository building and had seen anybody in those buildings? captain lawrence. i know that all of these men have been questioned and that they were calling all of these men to be questioned and that this investigation was being handled by the secret service, and this is one reason why i did not question these men. mr. griffin. have you received any information that any of these men did see anybody at the windows of the texas school book depository building, particularly on the sixth floor? captain lawrence. i have never received any information from any of these men that they saw anybody up there. mr. griffin. you have answered that you did not conduct an investigation of these men and that you thought the secret service did; let me ask the further question--has the police department conducted an investigation of these men who were at the intersections of main and houston and elm and houston? captain lawrence. to my knowledge, they were--there was an investigation requested. mr. griffin. by the police department? captain lawrence. by the police department--that reports were requested from these men, by the supervisory officers, but--and by the inspectors and the deputy chiefs--but i was not given any such assignment. mr. griffin. let me turn to the movement of lee harvey oswald and ask you when did you first receive instructions as to the moving of lee harvey oswald to the county jail? captain lawrence. i received no original instructions on the movement of lee harvey oswald. i was scheduled to be off on saturday and sunday. these were my days off. on saturday at approximately a.m., i came down in civilian clothes and i observed a large crowd of people around the county courthouse and i had knowledge from what i had heard on television and i had seen on television and heard on the radio that charges had already been filed against lee harvey oswald, so it was my assumption that he would be transferred to the county jail, but i had no knowledge of it; and seeing this large crowd gathering down at this part of town, i immediately called the traffic office and started trying to contact sergeant harkness and finally got him down there and told him to get some other traffic officers down there and i remained down at this location until approximately : p.m. when captain thompson came on duty. while down there and during the afternoon, i noticed there was a large crowd gathered and there seemed to be a need for barricades or ropes or something to keep these people behind these ropes and across the street from the county jail, and i called chief batchelor's office, and officer art hammett answered the phone and i told art hammett there was a large crowd down there, and this was early in the afternoon--i would say about or o'clock in the afternoon on saturday--and there was a large crowd there and i believe that ropes or barricades were necessary to keep these people out of the streets and across the street at dealey plaza, and hammett said he would try to get in touch with chief batchelor and let me know. on saturday afternoon i got a call on the radio, and, of course, it was a three-wheel motorcycle with the radio going, and officer hammett asked me and i am assuming he was in the dispatcher's office at the time, and he asked me if the ropes that i requested were to block off the street for motor vehicle traffic and i told him it was not, and he said, "well, permission is granted." then, we borrowed some rope from the sheriff's office and we roped off this block across the street from the county jail. we also got some barricades from elm and houston where a--where part of the street had been blocked off there anyway, and we blocked off the sidewalks on the county jail side--at houston and elm street, and main street, and the only persons we allowed in this area were television, radio, and news media people. mr. griffin. did you take any further precautions on sunday? captain lawrence. yes. by the way, when captain thompson came on, i contacted him by radio and asked him to meet me down there and he relieved me and our solo motorcycle detail was placed down there in the evening. when i got home i called chief lunday at home and i told him--that's when i heard that the transfer was supposed to be made the following morning, that there would be a need for some more men down there and that i would be down there and i would get as many men as i could on the location. so on sunday morning i arrived down there and i'm going to guess at the time as approximately a.m. i first went by the office and i picked up some police reserves in my car and took about four of them down there with me, and then i had some motorcycle officers that were not already stationed--upstairs on the third floor--and i had them meet me down there too. it was still roped off and the crowds started gathering and i personally instructed sergeant steigel to go down there and sergeant bellah, and most of the men down there, i personally instructed them that when oswald was brought in down there, that they were not to look at oswald, that they were to face the crowd and they were not to worry about anything but keeping their eyes on that crowd, because i estimated there were approximately people down there at that time, and these officers were specifically instructed on that. and when chief lunday showed up at approximately--sometime between : and , he showed up--he arrived in civilian clothes--he saw that there was a large crowd there too and we were concerned about the security of oswald, and i expressed this opinion to chief lunday and lieutenant southard also. there with me at the time too was captain solomon, who also showed up down there. the only time that i knew that anything had happened was when sheriff bill decker came out of his office and came by the cameras there where the vehicle was supposed to enter the county jail entrance there, and he waved for me to come over to him. i was across the street at that time and he told me that oswald had been shot in the basement of the city hall. so, after this was confirmed, we then sent some more men to parkland hospital to seal it off. mr. griffin. did you have anything to do with the stationing of men along the route that it was expected that oswald was to follow? captain lawrence. no; i didn't. mr. griffin. did you ever receive any specific instructions from any of your superiors on stationing your men around dealey plaza or the county jail or did the precautions that you took--were they undertaken on your own initiative? captain lawrence. i would say that i notified chief lunday of the situation down there and then he told me to go ahead and station these men there. mr. griffin. but there never was any independent effort made by your superior officers to contact you prior to the move and say, "captain lawrence, we are going to move oswald at such and such a time, or in such and such a way, and take such and such precautions"? captain lawrence. no; i believe though that chief lunday was in communication with headquarters because he went immediately after he talked to lieutenant southard and i and saw this crowd too, he immediately went inside the sheriff's office and it is my assumption that he had communication with them because he came out a little later and told me about the plans--how oswald was to be brought down and that he would not be brought down in the armored truck, but that the armored truck would come elm street and would make a left turn off of elm, and when it did, this car with the detectives in it would come first and the car with oswald would turn into the ramp there at the county jail and they would lower the gates immediately. at that time chief lunday was in charge down there. mr. griffin. how long were you informed of this plan to bring oswald in a police car; how long before you actually knew oswald was shot did you learn about that plan? captain lawrence. i would say approximately minutes--i'm just guessing--i know it was just shortly after that that i heard he was shot. mr. griffin. were you ever informed that the armored car had arrived at the police station? captain lawrence. no; i had no knowledge of an armored car until chief lunday told me about it and at the same time he was telling me about it, a sergeant arrived down there from the radio patrol and was giving chief lunday some information to the same effect, that the armored car was going to be used as a decoy. mr. griffin. but maybe i didn't make my question clear--was any information ever passed on to the people at the county jail that the decoy car had arrived in the city basement? captain lawrence. not to my knowledge. i was outside all the time. mr. griffin. i think we have pretty well covered everything here. i'm going to ask you if you will sign exhibit no. and also exhibits nos. and . captain lawrence. this man did not show up and he was given some other assignment. mr. griffin. that is the no. man there on that list? captain lawrence. yes; he was given some other assignment. mr. griffin. let me mark one more paper here--this is a copy of a letter that you wrote. captain lawrence. that's a copy of a letter that i wrote that you probably have in the file there. mr. griffin. this is a letter you wrote to chief curry on july detailing what you did on november , and i am going to mark it capt. p. w. lawrence deposition, july , , exhibit no. , and i will ask you if you will sign that up at the top also. do you have anything else, captain, you would like to add? captain lawrence. oh, i guess this probably has been mentioned to you before--there are some people that were down there--captain solomon and i discussed the fact that we were rather shocked at the crowd that was down there when they announced that oswald--when they heard that oswald had been shot--about them cheering, but this was an actual fact, and i thought it was a terrible thing myself, it broke me up too, this killing of the president, but as i said, this was a real shock that these people cheered like this. this just showed the attitude of some of them that were down there. i can't think of anything else. mr. griffin. i want to thank you for coming here and taking this time. all of the members of your department who have been here have really given very generously of their time and cooperated and we are all very appreciative of it. captain lawrence. i did learn of some new security measures from this unfortunate experience. i refer to the manner in which the secret service handled the transfer of president johnson and his party from parkland hospital, the plans for this transfer in unmarked cars, the solo escorts and positioning of the vehicles en route to love field. first, the secret service personnel made arrangements for three unmarked cars to be placed in a "ready" position at the rear of parkland without the knowledge of the news media or other persons. three cars were so arranged. the first car was chief curry's unmarked car, the second car was my unmarked car, and the third car was inspector putnam's unmarked car. i was instructed to have two solo officers ready to go but not to give them their destination until we started to leave--these instructions were from the secret service. when president johnson came out of the hospital with his party he was immediately taken to chief curry's lead vehicle. other white house and secret service personnel got in my car, as they did in inspector putnam's car. i instructed the solo officers to escort us to love field. as we left parkland hospital the solo officers started using their sirens and shortly thereafter chief curry came on the police radio and requested them to cut the sirens off. chief curry repeated these instructions about three or four times and after several blocks the officers cut off their sirens. one of the secret service men in my vehicle instructed me as to how to position my vehicle to the rear of chief curry's car and i also noticed in the rear view mirror that inspector putnam's vehicle was positioned in such a way that it would be difficult for any other car to overtake this escort. after the solo motorcycle officers cut off their sirens they went ahead and stopped traffic at various intersections so that it was not necessary for any of the cars in president johnson's party to stop. i was quite impressed with the quick efficient planning of the secret service in getting the president and his party safely to the airport and the security precautions taken while en route to love field. you know--this thing--something like this, this just really hits you. you are so busy you don't know it, but it just finally really hits you down deep. mr. griffin. there's not very much i guess really that can be said--it's one of these events that is so shocking in our lifetime. captain lawrence. too--chief curry was really torn up about it--out at parkland hospital he held himself real good--i guess we all were. mr. griffin. yes; we all were. thank you very much for coming. captain lawrence. thank you. affidavit of ronald g. wittmus the following affidavit was executed by ronald g. wittmus on july , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy district of columbia, _ss_: i, ronald g. wittmus, have reviewed the testimony of sebastian francis latona before the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy and i agree with the conclusions stated therein. i have conducted independent examinations of the items which were the subject of mr. latona's testimony and on the basis of these independent examinations i reached the same conclusions reached by sebastian francis latona. signed this th day of july , at washington, d.c. (s) ronald g. wittmus, ronald g. wittmus. affidavit of thomas j. kelley the following affidavit was executed by thomas j. kelley on july , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy district of columbia, _ss_: i, thomas j. kelley, being duly sworn say: . i am an inspector in the united states secret service assigned to secret service headquarters in washington, d.c. . on november , , i attended the interrogation of lee harvey oswald in the dallas police station. those present included: captain fritz; forrest sorrels of the united states secret service; postal inspector harry holmes; and several dallas police officers. . it is my recollection that during this interrogation, oswald was not asked about nor did he speak of a trip that he took to mexico or plans that he had to go to cuba. signed this th day of july , at washington, d.c. (s) thomas j. kelley, thomas j. kelley. affidavit of robert a. frazier the following affidavit was executed by robert a. frazier on july , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy district of columbia, _ss_: i, robert a. frazier, special agent of the federal bureau of investigation, do hereby state that i have reviewed the testimonies of cortlandt cunningham on march and april , , before the president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy and i agree with the conclusions stated therein. i do hereby state that i conducted independent examinations of the items which were the subject of mr. cunningham's testimonies and that on the basis of these independent examinations, i reached the same conclusions reached by mr. cunningham. signed this st day of july , at washington, d.c. (s) robert a. frazier, robert a. frazier. affidavit of cortlandt cunningham the following affidavit was executed by cortlandt cunningham on july , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy district of columbia, _ss_: i, cortlandt cunningham, special agent of the federal bureau of investigation, do hereby state that i have reviewed the testimonies of robert a. frazier on march and may , , before the president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy and i agree with the conclusions stated therein. i do hereby state that i conducted independent examinations of the items which were the subject of mr. frazier's testimonies and that on the basis of these independent examinations, i reached the same conclusions reached by mr. frazier. signed this st day of july , at washington, d.c. (s) cortlandt cunningham, cortlandt cunningham. affidavit of charles l. killion the following affidavit was executed by charles l. killion on july , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy district of columbia, _ss_: i, charles l. killion, special agent of the federal bureau of investigation, do hereby state that i have reviewed the testimonies of robert a. frazier on march and may , , and testimonies of cortlandt cunningham on march and april , , before the president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy and i agree with the conclusions stated therein. i do hereby state that i conducted independent examinations of the items which were the subject of mr. cunningham's and mr. frazier's testimonies and that on the basis of these independent examinations, i reached the same conclusions reached by mr. frazier and mr. cunningham. signed this st day of july , at washington, d.c. (s) charles l. killion, charles l. killion. affidavit of roy sansom truly the following affidavit was executed by roy sansom truly on august , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy state of texas, _county of dallas, ss_: i, roy sansom truly, being duly sworn say: . i am the superintendent of the texas school book depository building in dallas, texas. . the door opening on the vestibule of the lunchroom on the second floor of the texas school book depository building is usually shut because of a closing mechanism on the door. signed this d day of august , at dallas tex. (s) roy sansom truly, roy sansom truly. affidavit of forrest v. sorrels the following affidavit was executed by forrest v. sorrels on august , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy state of texas, _county of dallas, ss_: i, forrest v. sorrels, being duly sworn say: . i am the special agent in charge of the dallas district of the united states secret service. . on november , , i attended the interrogation of lee harvey oswald in the dallas police station. those present included: captain fritz; thomas j. kelley, inspector of the united states secret service; postal inspector harry holmes; and several dallas city detectives. . i do not recall that during this interrogation oswald being questioned about or him making statements about a trip that he took to mexico or plans that he had to go to cuba. signed this th day of august , at dallas, tex. (s) forrest v. sorrels, forrest v. sorrels. affidavit of john joe howlett the following affidavit was executed by john joe howlett on august , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy state of texas, _county of dallas, ss_: i, john joe howlett, being duly sworn say: . i am an agent in the dallas office of the united states secret service. . on march , , counsel to the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy timed me as i walked from the southeast corner of the sixth floor to the second floor lunchroom by the stairway in the texas school book depository building. . during this test, i carried a rifle from the southeast corner of the sixth floor northerly along the east aisle to the northeast corner, then westerly along the north wall past the elevators to the northwest corner. there i placed the rifle on the floor. i then entered the stairwell, walked down the stairway to the second floor landing, and then into the lunchroom. . after the second test which was run at a "fast walk," i was not short-winded. signed this th day of august , at dallas, tex. (s) john joe howlett, john joe howlett. affidavit of marrion l. baker the following affidavit was executed by marrion l. baker on august , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy state of texas, _county of dallas, ss_: i, marrion l. baker, being duly sworn say: . i am an officer in the dallas police department. . on november , , upon hearing shots i rode my motorcycle to feet, parked the motorcycle, and ran feet to the texas school book depository building. . on march , , counsel from the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy timed a re-enactment of my actions after hearing the shots on november , . during this re-enactment, i reached the recessed door of the texas school book depository building fifteen seconds after the time of the simulated shot. signed this th day of august , at dallas, tex. (s) marrion l. baker, marrion l. baker. affidavit of robert brock the following affidavit was executed by robert brock on august , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy i, robert brock, being duly sworn, depose as follows: i now reside at th street, lubbock, texas. on january , , i was residing at utah, dallas, texas. on january , , i was interviewed by special agents of the federal bureau of investigation concerning what i had seen on november , , as it related to lee harvey oswald and the assassination of president john fitzgerald kennedy. i have been shown the written report[c] of the results of my interview with special agents john t. kesler and vernon mitchem of the federal bureau of investigation on january , . i have read this written report and it represents a correct report of what i saw on november , . signed this th day of august . (s) robert brock, robert brock. [c] this report was labeled robert brock exhibit a. affidavit of mary brock the following affidavit was executed by mary brock on august , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy i, mary brock, being duly sworn, depose as follows: i now reside at th street, lubbock, texas. on january , , i was residing at utah, dallas, texas. on january , , i was interviewed by special agents of the federal bureau of investigation concerning what i had seen on november , , as it related to lee harvey oswald and the assassination of president john fitzgerald kennedy. i have been shown the written report[d] of the results of my interview with special agents john t. kesler and vernon mitchem of the federal bureau of investigation on january , . i have read this written report and it represents a correct report of what i saw on november , . signed this th day of august . (s) mary brock, mary brock. [d] this report was labeled mary brock exhibit a. affidavit of harold russell the following affidavit was executed by harold russell on august , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy i, harold russell, being duly sworn, depose as follows: i now reside at u.s. highway s., davis, okla. on january , , i was residing at on north clinton, dallas, texas, and was employed as a salesman by johnny reynolds used car lot, east jefferson, dallas, texas. on january , , i was interviewed by special agents john t. kesler and vernon mitchem of the federal bureau of investigation concerning what i had seen on november , , as it related to lee harvey oswald, the shooting of dallas police officer j. d. tippit, and the assassination of president john fitzgerald kennedy. i have been shown the written report[e] of the results of the interview by special agents john t. kesler and vernon mitchem of the federal bureau of investigation on january , . i have read this written report and it represents a correct report of what i saw on november , . signed this th day of august . (s) harold russell, harold russell. [e] this report was labeled russell exhibit a. affidavit of david goldstein the following affidavit was executed by david goldstein on august , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy state of texas, _county of dallas, ss_: i, david goldstein, averill way, apartment d, dallas, tex., being duly sworn say: . i am and have been for several years owner of dave's house of guns, elm street, dallas, texas. . dave's house of guns has handled smith and wesson . / british service revolvers. within ten days after the assassination of president kennedy, f.b.i. agents called on me to determine if dave's house of guns had any record of handling a smith and wesson . / british service revolver, serial number v and assembly number . we had no such record. . after being shown a photograph of the above gun, i showed the f.b.i. agents a catalog which listed such guns and indicated that they were handled by george rose and company, inc., south grand avenue, los angeles, california. signed this th day of august . (s) david goldstein, david goldstein. transcriber's notes: punctuation and spelling were made consistent when a predominant preference was found in this book; otherwise they were not changed. misspellings in quoted evidence not changed; misspellings that could be due to mispronunciations were not changed. some simple typographical errors were corrected. inconsistent hyphenation of compound words retained. ambiguous end-of-line hyphens retained. occasional uses of "mr." for "mrs." and of "mrs." for "mr." corrected. dubious repeated words, (e.g., "what took place by way of of conversation?") retained. several unbalanced quotation marks not remedied. occasional periods that should be question marks not changed. occasional periods that should be commas, and commas that should be periods, were changed only when they clearly had been misprinted (at the end of a paragraph or following a speaker's name in small-caps at the beginning of a line). some commas and semi-colons were printed so faintly that they appear to be periods or colons: some were found and corrected, but some almost certainly remain. text in quotations is not indented unless it was indented in the source. "air force " usually is in italics, but in a few instances was printed upright as "air force i". page : "mr. dhority. they identified oswald as the no. man in the lineup." probably was asked by mr. ball, not stated by mr. dhority. page : "i could have heard, that" has misprinted comma after "heard". page : "we we still" probably is misprint for "we were still". page : "he had make a snapshot" is misprint for "made". page : "until my discharge in " was printed that way, but is inconsistent with being after world war ii. page : "will you state you name" is misprint for "your". page : "running, from the scene" has misprinted comma after "running". page : "i took here into the" is misprint for "her". page : "no bad pressure?" is misprint for "back". page : "sit and each lunch with him" is misprint for "eat". page : "raise your right and be sworn" is missing "hand". page : the index referenced in footnote may not be available at project gutenberg. page : "dallas time herald television station" is misprint for "times". page : "in both the know and questioned" is misprint for "known". page : "deal with an particular" is misprint for "any". page : "distoration" was printed that way. page : "that we taken" probably is missing "had". www.history-matters.com. investigation of the assassination of president john f. kennedy hearings before the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy pursuant to executive order , an executive order creating a commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of the late president john f. kennedy and the subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and s.j. res. , th congress, a concurrent resolution conferring upon the commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas _volume_ ii united states government printing office washington, d.c. u.s. government printing office, washington: for sale in complete sets by the superintendent of documents, u.s. government printing office washington, d.c., president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy chief justice earl warren, _chairman_ senator richard b. russell senator john sherman cooper representative hale boggs representative gerald r. ford mr. allen w. dulles mr. john j. mccloy j. lee rankin, _general counsel_ _assistant counsel_ francis w. h. adams joseph a. ball david w. belin william t. coleman, jr. melvin aron eisenberg burt w. griffin leon d. hubert, jr. albert e. jenner, jr. wesley j. liebeler norman redlich w. david slawson arlen specter samuel a. stern howard p. willens[a] [a] mr. willens also acted as liaison between the commission and the department of justice. _staff members_ phillip barson edward a. conroy john hart ely alfred goldberg murray j. laulicht arthur marmor richard m. mosk john j. o'brien stuart pollak alfredda scobey charles n. shaffer, jr. biographical information on the commissioners and the staff can be found in the commission's _report_. preface the testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume ii: james herbert martin, who acted for a brief period as the business manager of mrs. marina oswald; mark lane, a new york attorney; william robert greer, who was driving the president's car at the time of the assassination; roy h. kellerman, a secret service agent who sat to the right of greer; clinton j. hill, a secret service agent who was in the car behind the president's car; rufus wayne youngblood, a secret service agent who rode in the car with then vice president johnson; robert hill jackson, a newspaper photographer who rode in a car at the end of the motorcade; arnold louis rowland, james richard worrell, jr., and amos lee euins, who were present at the assassination scene; buell wesley frazier, who drove lee harvey oswald home on the evening of november , and back to work on the morning of november ; linnie mae randle, buell wesley frazier's sister; cortlandt cunningham, a firearms identification expert with the federal bureau of investigation; william wayne whaley, a taxicab driver, and cecil j. mcwatters, a busdriver, who testified concerning oswald's movements following the assassination; mrs. katherine ford, declan p. ford, and peter paul gregory, acquaintances of lee harvey oswald and his wife; comdr. james j. humes, comdr. j. thornton boswell, and lt. col. pierre a. finck, who performed the autopsy on the president at bethesda naval hospital; and michael r. paine and ruth hyde paine, acquaintances of lee harvey oswald and his wife. contents page preface v testimony of-- james herber martin (resumed) mark lane roy h. kellerman william robert greer clinton j. hill rufus wayne youngblood robert hill jackson arnold louis rowland james richard worrell, jr amos lee euins buell wesley frazier linnie mae randle cortlandt cunningham william wayne whaley , cecil j. mcwatters katherine ford declan p. ford peter paul gregory james j. humes j. thornton boswell pierre a. finck michael r. paine ruth hyde paine commission exhibits introduced exhibit no.: page -a -a -a -a -a -b hearings before the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy _thursday, february , --afternoon session_ testimony of james herbert martin resumed the president's commission reconvened at p.m. mr. dulles. gentlemen, the commission will come to order. are you ready to continue the testimony, mr. martin? mr. martin. yes, sir. mr. dulles. will you carry forward, mr. redlich? mr. redlich. mr. martin, i would like to hand you a group of newspaper clippings which have not as yet been introduced in evidence and i would ask you to look through them and to pick out any which you feel create an image of mrs. marina oswald which you feel does not conform to the reality of her personality, as you know it, and ask you in regard to each one to tell us in what respect the facts as reported in each of these clippings do not conform to the real person as you know her. mr. dulles. i assume we can avoid repetition, can't we? mr. redlich. yes. mr. dulles. incidents here have been touched on in other papers and we don't need to touch them again. mr. redlich. yes, mr. chairman. during the intermission we have gone through all of the newspaper clippings and eliminated the duplicate stories and hope to eliminate duplicate facts as we go along. mr. martin. well, this one is inaccurate that it doesn't have anything to do with her image, so to speak. it says she spent christmas---- mr. redlich. for the sake of the record if we are going to have comment on them i would like to have them introduced as evidence because the record wouldn't state what they are about. are you going to make comment? mr. martin. do you want me to? mr. redlich. if you are going to make comment about it, if you feel there is some inaccuracy here then i would like to introduce that in evidence, since apparently you are. mr. martin. it is inaccurate as far as the date in the article is concerned. mr. redlich. the witness has handed to us a newspaper story which we have marked as commission exhibit no. . mr. dulles. could we have the inaccuracy mentioned here? mr. redlich. yes, the headline of which is "mrs. oswald will bare life of mate" and i request it be admitted in evidence. mr. dulles. any objection? mr. leech. no. mr. dulles. it will be admitted. (the document referred to was marked commission's exhibit no. for identification and received in evidence.) mr. redlich. i show you commission exhibit no. and ask you if there are any inaccuracies in that statement. mr. martin. "mrs. oswald and her children now make their home at an undisclosed hotel" which is inaccurate--"and it was in that motel room, somewhere in the dallas-fort worth area that the youngest oswald child spent her first christmas. there was a tree, toys and even a visit from mrs. oswald's brother who lives miles to the north in denton, tex." that was the inaccuracy that she spent christmas not in a motel but in our home. mr. dulles. that is about from o'clock in the afternoon as i recall until : in the evening. mr. martin. no, sir; that was thanksgiving. mr. dulles. that was thanksgiving. spent the whole day of christmas in your home? mr. martin. well, she lived there. she was at our home hours a day. this one-- mr. redlich. the witness has produced before the commission a newspaper story which we have labeled as commission exhibit no. , the headline of which reads, "money gifts to tippit's near $ , mark." mr. chairman, i request that commission exhibit no. be admitted in evidence. mr. dulles. any objection? mr. leech. no. mr. dulles. it shall be admitted. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification and received in evidence.) mr. redlich. mr. martin, i hand you exhibit no. and ask you if it is inaccurate in any respect. mr. martin. the article states that mrs. shirley williamson, a fort worth housewife, who felt compassion for the widow, mrs. oswald, and the two babies said the fund for the russian-born widow had reached $ , ." the fund that mrs. williamson collected amounted to some $ , . that was her total. that is the inaccuracy there. mr. dulles. is she referring to the funds she collected or the whole collections? mr. martin. her funds. this has come up numerous times. we even called her about it one time. she had given out press releases that she had collected personally, i think, in excess of $ , , whereas what she was doing was adding what she had collected to what had already been sent to marina, and saying that she was holding that money. mr. dulles. but even that total is exaggerated, is it not? mr. martin. at that time, yes. mr. dulles. the total collections? mr. martin. at that time, yes. mr. redlich. mr. martin, this article also makes reference to the fund on behalf of the wife of officer tippit with which, of course, you have no connection. i would like to ask you, however, whether at the time you extended the offer to marina oswald to live in your home you were aware of the fact that there were funds being raised for officer tippit's wife. mr. martin. i was undoubtedly aware of it but i don't recall any conscious knowledge of it or thinking of it. mr. redlich. do you recall whether you were aware at the time that there were any funds coming in on behalf of mrs. oswald? mr. martin. no. mr. redlich. you were not aware? mr. martin. not aware, no. mr. redlich. the witness has offered to, has presented to, the commission a newspaper story appearing in the buffalo evening news, december , , headline of which reads, "oswald's widow reported hoping to be u.s. citizen." this story has been identified as commission exhibit no. and i ask that it be introduced in evidence. mr. dulles. any objection? mr. leech. none. mr. dulles. accepted. (the newspaper article referred to was marked commission's exhibit no. for identification and received in evidence.) mr. redlich. mr. martin, i show you commission's exhibit no. and ask you if it is inaccurate in any respect to the best of your knowledge? mr. martin. in the second paragraph it says, "mrs. oswald, ," which is inaccurate--"russian-born mother of three--" mr. redlich. will you state the inaccuracy? mr. martin. the age is inaccurate. she is , "russian-born mother of three" that is inaccurate. she is the mother of two, "burst into tears when she learned at least $ , had been sent to her by sympathetic americans." there was no burst of tears. mr. redlich. will you tell the commission what the reaction was? mr. martin. i would say of happiness rather than--she was glad that that was there, which is normal. mr. redlich. do you recall anything she told you? mr. martin. no. this was december . no, i have no recollection of anything that she said? mr. dulles. didn't you testify before, maybe it is with regard to another or similar clipping, that she had some reference to the silly americans who were giving this money? mr. martin. well, it was a comment she had made at sometime or another. i don't know whether it was during this particular thing or not. i think it was further on. mr. dulles. on a similar occasion? mr. martin. a little later date, yes. mr. redlich. mr. martin, you have commented on the respects in which the newspaper clippings were at variance with the facts about marina oswald as you knew them. are there any other facts which perhaps were not reflected in these clippings but which you might be aware of in respect to which the public image of marina oswald differed from the true person that you knew on the basis of your contact with her? mr. martin. no. of course, she is not the least bit frugal. she spends money quite freely, which it is her money to spend, but it won't last very long at the rate it is going. mr. redlich. in connection with that did marina oswald ever discuss with you the financial difficulties she may have encountered while she was married to lee oswald? mr. martin. yes. she remarked one time that she had always wished for $ just to do with as she wanted. she also mentioned that the small amount of money that it took them to live upon. she said it ran between $ and $ a month. representative ford. did she complain about this limited amount? mr. martin. no. i asked her how she could live on that little and she said well, all they had was rent and food, and occasionally she would get a dress or get a pair of shoes. she said that she didn't object to it. representative ford. but when more money became available she found ways and means of spending it? mr. martin. yes. well, she mentioned one time to me that--i told her she was spending too much money, and she said, "well, when it is all gone i will go to work." that is---- mr. dulles. that is a little russian, may i say for the record. mr. redlich. mr. martin, this commission has recovered information to the effect that the public announcements which you made concerning the amount of funds which had been collected on marina oswald's behalf actually reflected figures that were less than the amount which had actually been collected on her behalf. without getting into specific figures at this time, are these reports correct in your opinion? mr. martin. which report? mr. redlich. the report---- mr. martin. oh, yes, we were obtaining a smaller figure, that is true. mr. redlich. that is true. did you consult with marina oswald on this policy on reporting to the press a lesser figure than had actually been collected? mr. martin. yes. mr. redlich. what was your reason for doing it? mr. martin. to--well, the money she had collected was considerable, and most people in their life don't accumulate that much money in their entire lifetime. what we were trying to do for her was to build enough of a--enough capital to furnish her from the interest a steady income. and by keeping the figure down figured it would increase. mr. redlich. i don't want to put words in your mouth. could you be a little more specific about your reason? mr. martin. well, so people would keep contributing to her cause. mr. redlich. and she was in accord with this policy of keeping the public amount at a low figure so that people would contribute to her cause? mr. martin. yes. mr. redlich. i would like to revert to a point that you made this morning to clear up the record. you said that you left your job at the six flags inn motel because of your obligations to marina oswald. did you leave the job voluntarily or were you fired? mr. martin. i left voluntarily. i actually left on the th of december, and i had a week's vacation coming, they gave me that which paid me to the st of january. mr. redlich. when you met mrs. oswald in late november and in your conversations with her at that time, did she discuss with you the fact of her husband's trip to mexico? mr. martin. no. mr. redlich. are you now---- mr. martin. she did at a later date, sometime in january before she went to the commission. mr. redlich. when did you first learn of lee oswald's trip to mexico? mr. martin. i guess it was from newspaper accounts. mr. redlich. when you read it in the newspapers did you ask marina about it? mr. martin. no. mr. redlich. what prompted you to discuss with marina in january the question of her knowledge about it? mr. martin. let's see--she told me when the fbi was questioning her one day, she told me that they had information that he had attempted suicide, and that particular day she didn't want to see the fbi at all, and she was a little bit unhappy with them and i just asked her what else did she learn. mr. redlich. who else was present at this conversation? mr. martin. i don't think anybody. mr. redlich. just you and mrs. oswald? mr. dulles. who was this who had attempted suicide, i didn't catch that? mr. martin. lee harvey oswald. mr. dulles. at what time? mr. martin. that was in russia sometime before, i think before he met her. mr. dulles. and she said she had heard this from the fbi or the fbi had asked her about it? mr. martin. the fbi had read, i think, in his manuscript that he had attempted suicide. mr. dulles. and they asked her about it? mr. martin. she didn't know that. yes. and at that time i asked her if she learned anything else, and she said no, but that they still didn't know that she knew that he had gone to mexico, and at that time we were talking about the commission, that general area of time, and i mentioned to be sure to tell the truth to the commission. mr. redlich. did you ask her why she had not revealed knowledge of her trip--of her knowledge of lee oswald's trip to mexico? mr. martin. i can't recall exactly whether i did or not. mr. redlich. did you ask her? mr. martin. i have a recollection but i have no idea what was said. mr. redlich. did you and she discuss the purpose of lee oswald's trip to mexico? mr. martin. no. mr. redlich. do you say you advised her to tell this commission about that trip to mexico? mr. martin. yes. mr. redlich. when you were here and she testified did you inquire of her as to whether in fact she did tell this commission about the trip to mexico? mr. martin. i inquired of john thorne and he said that she had. mr. redlich. but in connection with the nixon incident, you indicated earlier in your testimony that you had not inquired of her as to whether she had told this commission about the nixon incident. mr. martin. right. mr. redlich. did you think that the nixon incident was of less importance than the mexican trip? mr. martin. no, i didn't quite believe the nixon incident. mr. redlich. do you believe it now? mr. martin. i don't know. i don't know if there is any corroboration other than her say so. mr. redlich. it was because you had doubts about the actual existence of the incident that you didn't pursue with her the question as to whether she should tell this commission about it? mr. martin. yes. i didn't tell her not to say anything about it. i didn't mention it specifically at all. the only thing i told her to do was to tell the commission the truth in all cases. mr. redlich. at the conclusion of each day's testimony while she was here before this commission did you discuss the nature of her testimony with her? mr. martin. no. i asked her how the day went. and she would tell me, "fine," and that was the end of it. mr. redlich. but you did inquire specifically about the mexico trip? mr. martin. yes. because i knew she lied about that to the fbi. mr. redlich. are there any other incidents you knew she had lied about to the fbi? mr. martin. no. mr. redlich. that is the only one? mr. martin. yes. mr. redlich. did you and marina oswald ever discuss the question of her husband's rifle practice? mr. martin. no. the only time i recall that ever being asked of her was at the press conference here in washington, and i never specifically asked her at all, whether he practiced. mr. redlich. did you ever discuss with her the question of lee oswald's ownership of a rifle? mr. martin. no. mr. redlich. when you discussed the general walker incident with her, did you discuss his ownership of a rifle? mr. martin. no. the only thing, i think about the only thing i asked her about that was how he got there and how he got back. mr. redlich. what did she say? mr. martin. she said he walked and took the bus. mr. redlich. and you didn't ask her what weapon he had shot at general walker with? mr. martin. no. that was in the newspaper, it was a rifle. and there were many things i didn't ask about because i was previously informed through the news or i thought i was anyway. mr. redlich. you specifically, with regard to the rifle, you are telling this commission that you had no conversations with marina oswald concerning her husband's practice with the rifle either in dallas or in new orleans. mr. martin. let's see--i think i did discuss with her one time at the rifle range out in grand prairie was it, wherever it was, that the owner had seen lee harvey oswald out there with a rifle, and he drove up in a car. mr. redlich. who is "they"? mr. martin. the owner of the rifle range. mr. redlich. you say they drove up in a car? mr. martin. he drove up in a car. mr. redlich. the owner of the rifle range? mr. martin. no; lee harvey oswald. mr. redlich. drove to the rifle range in a car? mr. martin. yes. and---- mr. dulles. did he drive himself? mr. martin. well, this is a report from the rifle range owner who said he had seen lee harvey oswald there on numerous occasions practicing, and that he drove up in a car by himself. he always came by himself, and i did ask her if he could drive and she said no, definitely. mr. redlich. where did you read this report or where did you hear about it? mr. martin. it was right after the start there, in the dallas papers. mr. redlich. this was something you read. this was not a personal conversation you had with the owner of the rifle range? mr. martin. no, it was a newspaper account. mr. redlich. were there any other conversations you had with mrs. oswald concerning rifle practice? mr. martin. no. mr. redlich. did you have any conversations with her concerning lee oswald's ability as a rifleman? mr. martin. no. mr. redlich. did mrs. oswald ever discuss with you the fears that she claims to have had that lee oswald would attempt to kill a public figure as a result specifically of the walker incident? mr. martin. no, other than when she told me that she told him that if he tried anything similar to the walker incident she would have him arrested. and she never mentioned to me a particular figure that he would do anything like that. she evidently had it though or she wouldn't have made the threat to him. mr. redlich. other than the nixon incident, and the walker incident, mrs. oswald never related to you any other specific incident with regard to the attempt to take the life of anyone? mr. martin. no. representative ford. did mrs. oswald, marina, ever indicate to you her feeling toward guns; did she ever indicate any apprehension about having one in the house? mr. martin. no. representative ford. related to rifles, pistols? mr. martin. i have a rifle in the house, for instance. of course, she may never have seen it. but i don't believe the question ever came up at all. representative ford. she never indicated to you that she had told lee harvey oswald that she was apprehensive about his use of a gun or his having a gun in the household? mr. martin. no. mr. redlich. mr. martin, i would like to ask you whether mrs. oswald ever discussed with you any aspects of the life of marina oswald and lee harvey oswald while they were in russia. mr. martin. let's see now--she mentioned one time to both my wife and i that lee had gone to moscow, i believe, and an old boy friend called her up and she went out with him while lee was gone. mr. redlich. did she indicate to you at that time the purpose of lee's trip to moscow? mr. martin. no. mr. redlich. did she indicate to you whether she had told lee about her going out with this old boy friend? mr. martin. she said she did tell him. mr. redlich. by the way, would you recall when lee made this trip to moscow? mr. martin. no, i don't think she mentioned the date at all. she may have but i don't recall. mr. redlich. did she indicate in connection with this trip of lee oswald to moscow that she herself subsequently went to moscow while he was there? mr. martin. no. i think she said he was gone one day or one night and came back the next day. mr. redlich. so that on the basis of your recollection, if there was a trip in which lee oswald went to moscow and she joined him there this was a different trip from the one you are talking about? mr. martin. yes. mr. redlich. is that right? mr. martin. yes. mr. redlich. just to make sure of this you say to the best of your recollection she said he went there for one day and returned? mr. martin. yes. mr. redlich. can you think of any other aspects of their life in the soviet union that marina discussed with you. mr. martin. he used to like her aunt. now, which aunt i don't know. yes, i do. it is the aunt that is working as a secretary and her husband is on a pension. she has an aunt and an uncle by blood. now, the aunt's husband is on a pension, and the uncle's--the uncle is a lieutenant colonel in the soviet army. mr. redlich. now, the aunt and uncle that you say she liked very much, is this the aunt and uncle with whom she was living at the time she met lee oswald or is this a different aunt and uncle? mr. martin. that was all very--always confusing to me because she wouldn't call the spouse of the aunt, for instance, her uncle, and i couldn't tell all the time which party she was talking about. mr. dulles. these were both relatives to marina, therefore, they were not married. mr. martin. well, no; they were not married to each other. mr. dulles. that is what i mean, yes. mr. martin. there were two couples, and the aunt in one couple and the uncle in the other couple. but she didn't refer to the opposite spouse as an aunt and uncle. mr. redlich. does the name berlov refresh your recollection any? mr. martin. berlov? representative ford. did marina ever indicate to you anything about her education, what school she attended? mr. martin. no, just the school of pharmacy, and she compared her grade school or our grade school, which is, i guess similar to our grade school in high school or junior high, anyway. representative ford. she only referred to the pharmacy training? mr. martin. yes. representative ford. as any special training she received? mr. martin. yes. representative ford. but she did discuss that with you? mr. martin. not at length. just stated the fact that she had finished pharmacy school. representative ford. but she didn't discuss any other training or schooling of a special nature. mr. martin. no. representative ford. did she ever discuss any special training that lee might have had while he was in russia? mr. martin. no. representative ford. did she ever discuss lee's employment while he was in russia? mr. martin. only that he was unhappy where he was working. representative ford. did she tell you where he worked, the kind of work he was doing? mr. martin. i don't know, i have an idea it was in a factory of some kind, whether she told me that or whether it was an assumption, i don't know. mr. redlich. did she ever discuss their apartment, their living quarters in minsk? mr. martin. yes, she said she had a one-room apartment, and had a balcony on it, and that as soon as the baby was born they were going to move to a larger one. i questioned her about that because i understand it is quite difficult to get more than a one-room apartment in russia and she said, well, lee was an american and he could get things the russians couldn't get. mr. redlich. did mrs. oswald give you the impression that in general she and lee oswald had better treatment than other russians? mr. martin. yes, and actually her past life even before she met lee seemed a little bit strange to me, going to the opera, taking vacations and holidays as she says. i understand it is quite expensive to go to the opera, and she was making, what did she say, rubles a month, and she would take a girl friend with her when she went to the opera. now, how much that cost, i don't know. mr. redlich. did you ever question her about her financial situation in russia? mr. martin. i asked her how she could afford it and she said she got by. she was living at home or with her aunt and uncle. so i imagine their expenses there weren't high. mr. redlich. did she mention any extra income which lee harvey oswald may have had apart from his job? mr. martin. no; i asked her about that specifically because i had heard an account that he was supposed to be getting western union money orders, and asked her about that. she didn't know what a western union money order was, for one thing, so i reworded the question and asked if he was getting money from anyone else other than where he was working, and she said no. mr. redlich. this was true of this life in the soviet union? mr. martin. yes, apparently. mr. redlich. did marina ever discuss with you the uncle with whom she lived who was apparently a lieutenant colonel in the soviet army? mr. martin. no; except she didn't like him. mr. redlich. did she say why? mr. martin. no. she preferred her aunt, who has the husband on the pension. mr. redlich. can you search your memory at this point and tell this commission anything that you have not yet told us about marina's conversations with you concerning her life in the soviet union? mr. martin. her aunt used to bring food and liquor home after parties had at the government building where she was working. other than talking about--she pulled one tooth out before she came to the united states. a tooth was either crooked or broken and she pulled the tooth out. that caused the other one to twist. i don't know what that was. representative ford. did marina ever indicate to you while she was in the soviet union that she drank beer, wine, liquor? mr. martin. vodka. representative ford. when she came to the united states, you could observe it, did she drink beer, wine, liquor of any kind? mr. martin. she drank, i guess she drank a bottle of beer every day, and occasionally she would drink some vodka. representative ford. but not a heavy drinker? mr. martin. no. (discussion off the record.) mr. redlich. mr. martin, have you ever been curious about how mrs. oswald was ever able to leave the soviet union? mr. martin. well, i wasn't, until don levine brought up the subject. of course, i have no idea what it entails to get into russia or out of it as far as that is concerned. but according to mr. levine, it is extremely difficult for people to get out of russia, especially when they have had the training that marina has had. mr. redlich. by training you mean what? mr. martin. pharmacy. he said they spent quite a bit of money on her training, and he doesn't understand how she got out of russia on such short notice. mr. redlich. did you ever ask this question of marina oswald? mr. martin. she said that lee arranged it, and that is all she would say. mr. redlich. she never discussed any other aspect of her departure from the soviet union? mr. martin. no. let's see, they were in moscow, she waited a couple of days while he was, how did she put it, collecting money or getting money together to come over to the states. i have forgotten the name of the hotel they stayed in. she even remarked they had pancakes every morning and she didn't like pancakes. mr. redlich. in terms of her official negotiations to leave the soviet union, you asked her nothing other than the question that i have already discussed with you? mr. martin. no, she said that lee arranged everything. mr. redlich. i would like to ask you a few questions now about some of the individuals that marina and lee harvey oswald knew in fort worth and dallas, and ask you in each case whether marina oswald discussed any of these individuals with you. the first is george bouhe. mr. martin. i know the name but i don't think marina has ever mentioned him; katya ford has though. mr. redlich. are you personally acquainted with george bouhe? mr. martin. no. mr. redlich. could you tell us what katya ford has told you about mr. bouhe? mr. martin. it was relating to marina--i think katya ford and bouhe are friends, and they had been discussing marina all the time she was in seclusion, and wondering what had happened to her, where she was. now this was after the news was out where she was. mr. redlich. are you acquainted with---- mr. dulles. excuse me, by "in seclusion", you mean at the time she was with you in your house? mr. martin. yes, and the press didn't know where she was. mr. dulles. i see. mr. redlich. are you acquainted with george de mohrenschildt or his wife jean de mohrenschildt? mr. martin. no. mr. redlich. have you ever discussed either george or jean de mohrenschildt with marina oswald? mr. martin. no. mr. redlich. have you ever discussed george and jean de mohrenschildt with anyone else? mr. martin. no. mr. dulles. did you ever hear the name mentioned before? mr. martin. no. i think i would remember that name. mr. redlich. are you personally acquainted with peter gregory? mr. martin. i met him once, maybe twice, at the inn. he was interpreting for marina, for the secret service, i believe, before lee gopadze got there. mr. redlich. do you know who he is? mr. martin. i understand he is a geologist, and he also teaches russian. mr. redlich. did marina ever discuss either peter gregory or paul gregory with you? mr. martin. she mentioned--i don't know which one. mr. redlich. one is the father and one is a son. mr. martin. i think it is the older gentleman that i met. she mentioned that she liked him. mr. redlich. the older gentleman? mr. martin. yes. and i think she corresponded with him. i know she corresponded with him. mr. redlich. do you have any knowledge of mr. gregory's son? mr. martin. no. mr. redlich. have you ever met him? mr. martin. not to my knowledge. mr. redlich. you have had no conversations with anyone else about him? mr. martin. no. we were--i think john thorne and i were talking about at sometime we may need an interpreter, and i mentioned his name in that instance. mr. redlich. that would be the elder mr. gregory? mr. martin. yes. but nothing on paul gregory. mr. redlich. nothing on paul gregory? mr. martin. no. mr. redlich. are you aware of the fact that paul gregory is a student at the university of oklahoma? mr. martin. no. mr. redlich. did marina ever discuss with you the fact that she had helped tutor the son of peter gregory? mr. martin. no. mr. redlich. are you familiar with--strike that. do you have any personal acquaintanceship with gary taylor? mr. martin. no. mr. redlich. have you ever heard the name of gary taylor? mr. martin. no. mr. redlich. marina oswald has never discussed that name with you? mr. martin. no. mr. redlich. do you know mrs. elena hall? mr. martin. elena hall? no. mr. redlich. has marina ever discussed her with you? mr. martin. no. mr. redlich. the name john r. hall, who is the husband of mrs. elena hall? mr. martin. no, it sounded a little familiar but i can't place anything on it. mr. redlich. do you know mrs. katherine ford? mr. martin. yes. mr. redlich. could you tell us how you came to know her? mr. martin. let's see, she had contacted marina a couple of times by letter, and---- representative ford. while she was staying at your home? mr. martin. yes--well, she sent the letter to grand prairie, the letters, christmas cards, and i think two letters after that. so i called her and marina wanted to, expressed a desire to, talk to her. so i called her and marina talked to her on the phone. i think every time she talked to her she talked nearly an hour. representative ford. in russian or in english? mr. martin. in russian. mr. dulles. was it on the telephone? mr. martin. yes. mr. redlich. did marina ever tell you the gist of these conversations? mr. martin. no. mr. redlich. did marina ever relate to you whether she had ever lived in mrs. ford's home? mr. martin. i believe she had for a very short time. mr. redlich. you mean marina related this to you? mr. martin. i think mrs. ford told me that. mr. redlich. how did you get this knowledge, from marina or from mrs. ford? did you ever discuss this with marina? mr. martin. no. i know marina likes her home, i mean likes the house that they live in. mr. redlich. did you ever ask marina how it came about that she was separated from her husband and living at the home of mrs. ford? mr. martin. no. mr. redlich. did any of marina's other russian-speaking friends in the dallas-fort worth area write letters to her while she was at your home? mr. martin. mrs. paine wrote at least once a week and---- mr. dulles. once a week? mr. martin. yes. marina did not answer, didn't answer any of the letters and didn't call her. mr. redlich. did mrs. paine attempt to reach marina by phone? mr. martin. yes, until i had my telephone number changed and then she couldn't find the phone number so she came over to the house. mr. redlich. what happened when she came to the house? mr. martin. nothing, i let her in the house and marina and the children were back in the den and the secret service men went back into the den, and i don't believe she knew that she was there. mr. dulles. was the change in number, did it have anything to do with marina as objecting to receiving the calls? mr. martin. no. that was strictly because the press pressure. mr. dulles. the presence of the press? mr. redlich. i would like to go back to this incident when mrs. paine came to see marina. you say marina did not know that mrs. paine was there? mr. martin. yes, she knew it. mr. redlich. she knew that mrs. paine was there? mr. martin. mrs. paine didn't know that marina was there. mr. redlich. but marina knew that mrs. paine was there? mr. martin. yes. mr. redlich. did marina see mrs. paine at that time? mr. martin. no. mr. redlich. did you talk to marina at that time? mr. martin. well, before and after. mr. redlich. at the time mrs. paine was there did you personally tell marina that mrs. paine wanted to see her? mr. martin. i told her before mrs. paine came in the door that mrs. paine was here, and she said she didn't want to see her. she stayed in the den, and mrs. paine was in the living room. mr. redlich. then did you convey this message to mrs. paine yourself? mr. martin. no. mr. redlich. who did? mr. martin. well, she came with the intention or for the purpose of bringing a package to marina that she had received in the mail, and i don't believe she knew that marina was living there. i told her at that time that because of security that marina wasn't seeing anyone but i don't believe she knew that marina was at that address until later. mr. redlich. when mrs. paine called your home prior to the change of phone, did you speak to mrs. paine? mr. martin. no, my wife did. mr. redlich. do you recall the nature of the conversations between your wife and mrs. paine as reported to you? mr. martin. well, let's see, she called and asked for marina or asked to get in touch with marina. my wife gave me the number and i guess i called her back. mr. redlich. you called mrs. paine back? mr. martin. a day or two later, yes. mr. redlich. what did you say to her? mr. martin. i told her that under the present circumstances she just didn't want to see anybody, and also the security on her didn't permit her to go out too far. that we could possibly arrange a meeting at some middle point later on. mr. redlich. was marina free to see anyone she wanted to see? mr. martin. yes. mr. redlich. and the reason she didn't see mrs. paine was because she didn't want to see mrs. paine? mr. martin. yes. i asked her several times to call her, at least call mrs. paine and tell her she didn't want to see her, and she just shrugged her shoulders and said she didn't want to talk to her. mr. redlich. did marina ever tell you why she didn't want to talk to her? mr. martin. she said something about mrs. paine talking too much, and she didn't like mrs. paine's children. mr. redlich. were you aware at the time that marina had lived with mrs. paine? mr. martin. yes. mr. redlich. were you aware at the time that mrs. paine had taken the oswald family to new orleans and had---- mr. martin. yes. mr. redlich. gone to new orleans and brought them back to irving, tex.? mr. martin. yes, that is why i felt she owed mrs. paine something. mr. redlich. what was marina's attitude toward your comments? mr. martin. she just didn't want to talk to her. mr. redlich. did you yourself ever meet mrs. paine? mr. martin. yes. mr. redlich. would you describe that meeting? mr. martin. well, the first time i met her was we went over to the paine's house to pick up some of marina's belongings. mr. redlich. who is "we"? mr. martin. john thorne and i. mr. redlich. do you recall about when this was? mr. martin. i guess it was about a week after she had moved in, maybe shorter, maybe sooner than that. there was not much said at all at that meeting. then when she came out to the house she talked at length, but it was---- mr. redlich. there is another occasion when you say she came? mr. martin. when she came to my house. mr. redlich. that was the same occasion that you referred to earlier when she came to pick up a package? mr. martin. to deliver a package. mr. redlich. to deliver a package, i am sorry. could you relate what happened at that time? mr. martin. i was quite distracted by the children. it was rather a stiff meeting or conversation. representative ford. this was the meeting at mrs. paine's house? mr. martin. no, my house. representative ford. your house? mr. martin. mrs. paine brought, i think, a package and some food, cookies, things like that, for marina, and---- mr. dulles. those are from mrs. paine to marina, but the package was a third---- mr. martin. the package came through the mail. mr. dulles. that you understand, but the cookies came from mrs. paine. mr. martin. yes. i believe she brought some toys for the children. what the toys were, i don't recall. her children were running back and forth through the living room making quite a bit of noise. mr. dulles. mrs. paine's children? mr. martin. yes. and i wasn't really paying too much attention to what she was saying. i was wanting her to leave. i didn't ask her to leave but i wasn't saying much to foster the conversation. then she left in, i guess, minutes. mr. redlich. what did mrs. paine say to you? mr. martin. oh, boy---- mr. dulles. was she disturbed, i mean was she annoyed, visibly annoyed, that marina wouldn't see her. she didn't know marina was in the house, i realize that. mr. martin. she didn't know marina was in the house. i am certain she didn't. mr. redlich. you mean her children were running around the house though, weren't they? mr. martin. her children were running in the living room and dining room. mr. dulles. but not into the den? mr. martin. but not into the den and kitchen. representative ford. do you have a door on the den so you can close the den off? mr. martin. yes. she talked mostly about generalities and she would like to see marina to make sure she is well taken care of, and so on. she was concerned about her. and she came back after that time, she came back once more. i wasn't there. my wife answered the door and didn't invite her in. mr. dulles. how long a trip is it from your house to mrs. paine's, roughly, a few miles? mr. martin. no, a good miles. mr. dulles. a good miles? mr. martin. because it is miles out to the inn, and she lives about or miles toward me from the inn, so it is about miles. mr. redlich. your wife did not invite mrs. paine into the house at that time? mr. martin. no. mr. redlich. was this at marina's urging? mr. martin. yes. mrs. paine was quite upset at that--that is what wanda said, she looked upset at that time. representative ford. on this occasion, did mrs. paine know marina was in the house? mr. martin. no, i don't believe so. mr. dulles. did she ask where she was, specifically? mr. martin. no. mr. dulles. she didn't ask? mr. redlich. what was the purpose of her visit? mr. martin. i don't believe--let's see, she may have brought something that day, too. i don't recall whether she did or not. i know right after that, the civil liberties union got into it. well, mark lane, was first. mr. redlich. you say right after that mark lane got into it? mr. martin. yes. mr. redlich. would you elaborate on that? mr. martin. mark lane came to dallas, and contacted john thorne and i. we met him at the statler and talked to him at lunch, and he expressed a desire to talk to marina oswald so that he could represent her husband, defend her husband in a hearing, and we told him that we would relay that information to her. so we did, and she said that she didn't want to have any representation. she didn't want any more---- mr. redlich. you mean she didn't want any representation for lee oswald? mr. martin. yes, she didn't want any more to do about it. representative ford. can you recall the date of this visit by mr. lane? mr. martin. no. representative ford. was it in december or january? mr. martin. it was in january, i believe. mr. redlich. and you transmitted mr. lane's message to marina? mr. martin. yes, and she said that she didn't want any representation for lee. mr. redlich. did you tell her this in english? mr. martin. yes, and explained it to her, and at that time she could understand. mr. dulles. to your knowledge, did marina ever meet mr. lane? mr. martin. not to my knowledge, no. mr. redlich. and you also related the ruth paine, second ruth paine, visit to your home to something which you referred to as the american civil liberties union business. mr. martin. it was right after--these incidents happened rather closely. the letter from the civil liberties union--well, first we received a telephone call from the civil liberties union wanting to see marina oswald. representative ford. telephone call from dallas or new york, or what? mr. martin. from richardson, the same person who wrote the letter which you have there. do you have that? mr. redlich. we do have. we are inventorying many of these documents of which the american civil liberties letter is one and we will introduce it at an appropriate time. mr. martin. richardson is a suburb of dallas. this gentleman called, what was his name? mr. leech. i can't remember it. mr. redlich. would it refresh your recollection if i mentioned the name olds? mr. martin. yes, greg olds. he called on the phone and wanted to see marina oswald, wanted to make sure she was being properly represented, that she knew her rights, and so on and so forth. john thorne talked to him, and told him that he represented marina oswald, and that he was definitely sure that all her rights were being observed. then i think there was another phone call from them still wanting to see marina oswald, and i talked to marina and she said well, she would talk to him. so they arranged a meeting with a third party, i can't remember his name, who was a minister of some kind, and then marina changed her mind and said no, she didn't want to go at all, she didn't want to talk to any of them. so then they wrote the letter. they wrote a letter to her in russian and sent one to me in english, one to john thorne in english, and i believe one to the secret service and one to the fbi. mr. leech. do you want to mention about their press releases at this time? mr. martin. there were a number of press releases at that time also that she was being held incognito and not able to---- mr. redlich. you mean incognito or incommunicado? mr. martin. incommunicado. representative ford. press releases by whom? mr. martin. the civil liberties union, and so they sent this letter to her and she answered it with a two-page letter in russian. representative ford. in russian? mr. martin. yes. mr. redlich. do you have a copy of that two-page letter? mr. martin. no. she wrote it, put it in an envelope, put a stamp on it and i mailed it. i didn't open it or look in it in any way. and that seemed to be the end of it, but they still persisted they wanted to see her. mr. redlich. and the reason marina did not see them was entirely her own volition? mr. martin. her own. mr. dulles. she never talked to you about what was in the letter? mr. martin. no, she said she just told them she didn't want to see them. mr. dulles. in two pages? mr. martin. yes, sir; this was quoted, a portion of the letter was quoted, in the worker. representative ford. i suggest, mr. chairman, that we get, if possible, a copy of the original of that letter. mr. martin. you probably can get it from greg olds. mr. dulles. would you make a note of that. i think we should do that. that was dated sometime in the middle of january? mr. martin. i believe so. the letter you have--she wadded the letter up that was written to her in russian and threw it away, and i got it back out, and asked her to go ahead and write them a letter so it would quiet them. so she said she would and she wrote a letter, i think, that night, so it would be within a couple of days of the date of that letter, the english copy of which you have. mr. redlich. mr. chairman, if you would like, we could take a - or -minute recess and i could get the american civil liberties union letter to marina oswald and introduce it at this time for the sake of clarity in the record. mr. dulles. good. it is a good time for a breather. (short recess.) the chairman. all right, gentlemen, the commission will be in order. you are familiar with, mr. dulles, you are familiar with, the hearing up to date. you go right ahead and preside, if you will. mr. dulles. mr. redlich will you go right ahead with your questions? mr. redlich. i believe congressman ford, you said you wanted to ask your questions prior to your leaving. representative ford. do you wish to have that letter entered as an exhibit at this point before i ask several questions? mr. redlich. the witness has produced before this commission a letter which i now mark commission exhibit no. on the dallas civil liberties union stationery, addressed to mr. john thorne, james martin, mr. sorrels, secret service, mrs. lee h. oswald, and the federal bureau of investigation. i ask that it be introduced in evidence. mr. dulles. any objection? mr. leech. no. mr. dulles. it will be introduced. (the letter referred to was marked for identification as commission exhibit no. and received in evidence.) the chairman. have you seen it? mr. martin. yes. mr. redlich. mr. chief justice, we have introduced that because just prior to the recess we were discussing it and congressman ford indicated he had to leave i believe and i wanted to ask some questions. the chairman. go ahead. mr. dulles. could i ask one question on this letter for clarification? it is my understanding it is your belief that mrs. oswald received a copy of this letter in russian? mr. martin. well, she received a letter on this letterhead written in russian. now whether it was an exact copy, i don't know. mr. dulles. about the length of this letter as far as you could tell? mr. martin. yes. mr. dulles. at about the same time? mr. martin. yes, it was the same day. mr. dulles. that was the letter she crumpled up and put in the wastepaper basket? mr. martin. yes. mr. dulles. but you retrieved it from the wastepaper basket, did you not say? mr. martin. yes, sir, and asked her to answer it. mr. dulles. where is that copy that you retrieved from the wastepaper basket? mr. martin. i don't know. mr. dulles. maybe reassigned to the wastepaper basket? mr. martin. it may have been, yes. representative ford. i believe that was the letter that mr. redlich indicated he would get a copy from the dallas chapter of the american civil liberties union. mr. martin. her answer is what he wanted to get. mr. redlich. i think congressman ford is right. we might be able to get both a copy of the letter and their answer. mr. dulles. their statement in this letter is the english of the russian translation which they sent to her. i think it would be adequate, wouldn't it? mr. redlich. yes. mr. dulles. it seems to me it would be adequate for our purposes. mr. redlich. we will contact the dallas division on that. representative ford. marina testified here, and she has said elsewhere, that based on the facts as she now knows them, she believes that lee was guilty of the assassination of president kennedy. mr. martin. yes. representative ford. was that her attitude when you first met her? mr. martin. well, when i first met her, we didn't converse very well at all. there was lack of communication because of the language barrier, and i didn't discuss it with her probably until the latter part of december, although she was speaking fairly good english by the th of december. representative ford. when you first discussed it with her, what was her attitude? mr. martin. well, she said she thought he was crazy. representative ford. but did she indicate when you first discussed the question of guilt or not being guilty, what was her attitude? mr. martin. she thought he was guilty. representative ford. the first time you discussed the matter? mr. martin. yes. representative ford. did she indicate why? mr. martin. no. i asked her why, and she said it was just a feeling. representative ford. at that point had she---- mr. martin. a woman's feeling. representative ford. at that point had she been given or shown the evidence that had been accumulated by various agencies of the federal government? mr. martin. i don't know. i assume she had through the fbi. the fbi were showing her pictures and numerous things. i was not in on any of the questioning at all. mr. dulles. had she read the papers or had them read to her as far as you know at that period? mr. martin. some of them, yes. mr. dulles. newspapers, i mean. mr. martin. yes. representative ford. from that first conversation you had with her about this matter, the guilt of lee harvey oswald, she has never changed her mind? mr. martin. no, and i have never heard her say anything other than he was guilty. representative ford. did you ever discuss with marina the conversation she had with lee harvey oswald at the dallas police station the day he was apprehended or the day following. or at any time prior to his death? mr. martin. the only time she said anything about it was that he told her not to worry and to make sure and get the--get june a pair of shoes. representative ford. she told you that is what he said to her? mr. martin. that is what he said, yes. representative ford. there was nothing extraordinary that she told you about the conversation? mr. martin. no, sir. representative ford. other than what you have indicated? mr. martin. yes. he said not to worry. everything would be all right. representative ford. did you ever ask her about this conversation that she had with lee harvey oswald while he was at the dallas police station? mr. martin. no. representative ford. as her manager, as the manager of marina, did you have anything to do with the change of her appearance? many people have said to me the first picture they saw of her and the subsequent pictures they saw of her she was wearing different kind of clothes. she had a different hair-do, and so forth. did you have anything to do with that? mr. martin. yes. representative ford. what was the purpose of that? mr. martin. just to change her general appearance so she wouldn't be recognized when she went out. representative ford. did she agree to this, was she willing to do it? mr. martin. yes. she didn't like her haircut particularly. representative ford. she liked the previous way it was? mr. martin. yes. representative ford. how about the change in clothes, the type that she wore? mr. martin. well, of course, that was for the better. representative ford. did she like it? mr. martin. she liked the clothes, yes. representative ford. that is all. mr. martin. she tried makeup but that didn't work, because she couldn't stand makeup. mr. redlich. we previously asked you, mr. martin, about various people that marina oswald knew in the dallas-fort worth area and you have indicated the extent to which you knew them personally and the extent to which they had contacted marina oswald during the time she was in your home. are there any other friends of marina oswald's rather than those i have asked you about that you--who attempted to contact her while she was living at your home? mr. martin. ilya, i believe it is mamatav or mamantov--he is of the dallas police department and he has asked of her how she is. mr. redlich. has he ever seen her, to the best of your knowledge other than in an official capacity? (at this point, congressman ford left the hearing room.) mr. martin. well, one time when we went to sears, sears roebuck in dallas, and walked into the store he was walking and practically ran into her, and they said hello and passed the time of day and he left. mr. redlich. there were no other friends of hers that you know about who attempted to see her or call her while she was living at your home? other than those we have already discussed on the record? if i mentioned the name of mr. or mrs. teofil meller--the first name is teofil, the last name is meller. mr. martin. well, there was someone that called the office one day and had a rather odd name, was that meller, and said that marina wanted to talk to her, and we took it just for a crank call. she wouldn't leave the number or anything like that. i am not sure whether that was meller. (discussion off the record.) (at this point, senator cooper entered the hearing room.) mr. martin. there was no telephone number involved. mr. redlich. you have discussed at length the attempt of ruth paine to see mrs. oswald. did mike paine ever attempt to see mrs. oswald while she was living at your home? mr. martin. no. mr. redlich. have you ever talked to michael paine? mr. martin. no. when we went over to get the clothes, for instance, he stood back--i don't believe he said anything at all. it was a very odd situation. he was helping us move things but he didn't say anything. mr. redlich. did marina ever discuss michael paine with you? mr. martin. no. mr. redlich. only ruth paine but not michael paine? mr. martin. yes. she said they were separated. mr. redlich. mr. martin, did marina ever discuss with you her husband's desire to go to cuba? mr. martin. she said that he had wanted to go to cuba because he wanted--because he wasn't happy in russia and he wasn't happy in the united states and then she said he wouldn't be happy in cuba either. mr. redlich. did she ever discuss with you a plan to hi-jack a plane? mr. martin. no. mr. redlich. did she ever indicate what steps he was taking to get to cuba? mr. martin. no. not at all. mr. redlich. do you have any knowledge at all of any plans he was making to get to and live in cuba? mr. martin. no. mr. redlich. mr. ford has asked you about the conversations which marina had with lee oswald at the dallas police station on november and you have replied. i would like to ask you about any--your knowledge about any conversation which robert oswald had with lee oswald while he was in the custody of the dallas police prior to his death? mr. martin. i have no knowledge at all of that. mr. redlich. you have never had any conversations with robert oswald concerning his conversations with lee oswald. mr. martin. no. mr. redlich. have you ever talked to mrs. marguerite oswald concerning any conversations which she had with her son while he was in the custody of the dallas police? mr. martin. no. mr. redlich. have you had any conversations at all with mrs. marguerite oswald concerning the facts surrounding the assassination of president kennedy? mr. martin. no, i don't think any direct conversation, i mean between she and i. i was present at times out there at the inn when she was talking to this person or that person. but i don't believe i have had any direct conversation with her at all. mr. redlich. did mrs. marguerite oswald ever discuss with you an incident concerning a photograph which was supposed to have been shown to her by agents of the fbi on november , . mr. martin. no, i have heard that through news media but that is the only place i heard it. mr. redlich. you have no direct knowledge of that incident yourself. did marina oswald ever discuss that incident with you? mr. martin. no. mr. redlich. did marina oswald ever discuss with you her mother-in-law's allegations that lee oswald was acting as an agent of the united states government? mr. martin. no. she mentioned only one incident where the fbi came to their house when they were in oak cliff, and they took him down to the car, i believe he was about ready to sit down to dinner when they arrived, and they took him down to the car and talked to him, and marina was upset because dinner was spoiling, and i think that is the only reference she has made to anything like that. mr. redlich. she has never discussed with you the specific claims of marguerite oswald in that respect? mr. martin. no. mr. redlich. in the course of your conversations with marina oswald or in the course of the preparation of any stories or releases on mrs. oswald's behalf have you ever discussed with mrs. oswald the events of november and the morning of november ? mr. martin. yes. mr. redlich. could you relate those conversations to us? mr. martin. he came home thursday night, which was unusual. mr. redlich. just so the record is clear, i hope you are relating to us now what marina oswald has related to you and not what you have read in any publication. mr. martin. yes. mr. redlich. all right. mr. martin. and, let's see, this was sometime in december that she was telling me this--no, i remember when it was, when she was moving from the inn to my home. mr. redlich. by the inn you mean---- mr. martin. the inn of the six flags. she was in the back seat and leon gopadze was in the front seat talking with her, and she told him that he had come home thursday night and that---- mr. dulles. in russian? mr. martin. yes. mr. dulles. this was a conversation in russian? mr. martin. yes. lee translated it for me, gopadze translated it. mr. dulles. afterwards or as it took place. mr. martin. as it took place, well, it was immediately afterwards, and she made a comment that he had left his wedding band on the dresser, i think, and she got up the next morning she found his wedding band on the dresser, which was strange. now, that is the only thing that relates to that period that i have heard her say. now, i didn't actually hear her say that. mr. redlich. you have had no other conversations with her with regard to the period of november and the morning of november ? mr. martin. no. mr. redlich. do you have any knowledge of the story which marina oswald prepared in russian and which she has sent to this commission? mr. martin. yes. mr. redlich. could you state the extent of your knowledge? mr. martin. i knew it was written, and written by her, and that is about the extent of it. mr. redlich. was it ever translated for you? mr. martin. well, we have part of it translated, a portion of it. mr. redlich. are there any parts of that story which you now believe to be inaccurate? mr. martin. no, i don't have the whole thing translated, but i think everything that is translated, i have no reason to doubt. mr. redlich. did you assist marina oswald in the preparation for her television appearance in january on cbs television? mr. martin. yes. mr. redlich. are there any portions of that interview which you now believe to be inaccurate in any respect? mr. martin. no. we set a format for cbs to use, specific questions, and marina was not prompted as to the answers to give. those were impromptu. but we went over the ones with her off the camera, and asked her the questions so that she would understand them, and then she answered them, and the second time she did it on camera. mr. redlich. to the best of your knowledge and recollection those answers were accurate? mr. martin. yes. i can't remember them. but none of them struck me as being---- mr. redlich. apart from the newspaper clippings which we went through this morning and afternoon, are you familiar with any other narrative prepared by or for marina oswald? mr. martin. prepared by or for? mr. redlich. yes. mr. martin. you mean other than newspaper articles? mr. redlich. other than the newspaper articles which we discussed this morning and this afternoon. mr. martin. life magazine. mr. redlich. did you have anything to do with the recent story in life magazine? mr. martin. no, we had nothing on that other than the picture. time magazine, she was interviewed for time magazine. mr. redlich. when was that? mr. martin. saturday--friday--she was here in washington. mr. redlich. if i may refresh your recollection, she completed her testimony before this commission at approximately : on thursday, february . mr. martin. well, i believe it was friday. we held a press conference on friday afternoon, and i think it was friday night then. mr. redlich. it would be sometime after the completion of her testimony is that correct? mr. martin. yes. mr. redlich. were you with her during the course of that interview? mr. martin. it must have been thursday night. it was thursday night because secret service was still with her. mr. redlich. you believe this interview took place on thursday night? mr. martin. yes. mr. redlich. that would be february ? mr. martin. yes. mr. redlich. were you with her during the course of this interview? mr. martin. part of the time. i left john thorne and marina and the time reporter at the table. june was restless, and i was walking her around the restaurant. mr. redlich. have you read the interview? mr. martin. yes. mr. redlich. are there any portions of it which you now believe to be inaccurate, to the best of your recollection? mr. martin. i don't think so. i would have to re-read it to make it definite, make a definite statement on it. mr. redlich. on the basis of conversations which you had during the course of the testimony of marina oswald before this commission and on the basis of conversations which you have had subsequent to that time, do you have any opinion concerning the truthfulness of the testimony which she presented before this commission? mr. martin. no. i think primarily she is truthful, and i think that under oath she would tell the truth. mr. redlich. are you still mrs. oswald's business representative? mr. martin. according to the contract, yes. according to my contract with her. mr. redlich. have you received any communication from her which raises questions as to whether you are still her business representative? mr. martin. yes. the chairman. are we really concerned with that? mr. redlich. mr. chairman, i intend to ask the witness why he was discharged in terms of whether it had anything to do with any business negotiations or anything to do with the testimony of mrs. oswald before this commission. the chairman. you can ask him if it has anything to do with her testimony. we are not interested in her business affairs. mr. redlich. i merely wanted to establish the fact of---- the chairman. this thing can go on interminably with all this minutia and things that don't bear on what we are here to find out, whatever his business relations are with mrs. oswald, it seems to me is his business and not ours. mr. redlich. did mrs. oswald's attempt to terminate the relationship with you relate in any way to her testimony before this commission? mr. martin. no. there was no reason given. mr. redlich. did it relate in any way, in your opinion, to any information which you may have given to anyone else with regard to your knowledge of the facts concerning the assassination of president kennedy. mr. martin. no. mr. redlich. do you know jack ruby? mr. martin. yes. mr. redlich. would you tell us about your association with him? mr. martin. well, it is a very minor association. i had been working in the statler hotel in dallas as assistant manager for maybe six months before i met him, and met him through some of the other people in the hotel. mr. dulles. what year was this? mr. martin. about . mr. dulles. i just want to get the general area. mr. martin. or . and as a club manager, i was club manager in dallas also, and didn't associate with him at all, even on a bilateral communication through the clubs. but it was just a nodding acquaintance, you might say. i knew him by his first name. he knew me by my first name and we spoke when we saw each other and i think i have been in his place twice. mr. redlich. do you recall the approximate dates of those visits? mr. martin. let's see, once in . i had some gentlemen from new orleans with me. they were visiting dallas on business at the inn of the six flags, and they wanted to see the carousel. mr. dulles. that is what you mean by his place? mr. martin. yes. so i called jack ruby and asked if it would be all right if i brought them down. we stayed approximately an hour and a half. the other time was during the daytime, let's see, as it was then, i had--i was walking in that area and just stopped in to say hello. the club was closed at that time, not closed for business but it was before opening hours. mr. redlich. those are the only times you have been in jack ruby's business establishment? mr. martin. yes. mr. redlich. do you consider yourself a friend of his? mr. martin. no. an acquaintance. mr. redlich. have you gone out socially? mr. martin. no. he came out to the inn one time with some little gimmick. it is called a detwist board. it is quite a piece of plywood about like this with a round plate on the bottom of it, seated in ball bearings and you are supposed to stand on this thing to twist, and came out to ask me to see who to ask at the park to merchandise it, the six flags over texas amusement park, and i told him. now, whether he went over there or not, i don't know. mr. redlich. i understand that you have had a conversation with an aid of general walker concerning the general walker incident. would you tell the commission about that? mr. martin. they contacted us---- mr. redlich. who is "they"? mr. martin. general walker's aide, mr. moore or morse, a tall thin gentleman, about or , and wanted actually an interview with marina which we didn't think was necessary. they came out to john thorne's office and we sat and talked. they were of the opinion--what they were trying to do was find out who else was involved--this was right after the announcement was made in the paper about lee oswald shooting at walker. they were trying to find out who else was involved because general walker is still in fear of his life. mr. dulles. this was some time before the d. mr. martin. no, it was after. mr. dulles. after november ? mr. martin. yes, sir. this was after the announcement was made in the paper that---- mr. dulles. oh, yes. mr. martin. that lee oswald had attacked him. mr. dulles. the actual attack was in april. this was after the newspaper announcement. mr. martin. yes. the chairman. after the newspaper announcements that lee had tried to kill him which was after the assassination? mr. martin. that is correct. mr. dulles. yes. mr. martin. and they just wanted verification actually that or to try to get verification as to how many people were involved, and we told them that there was just one person involved. mr. redlich. at the time did you ask marina about this? mr. martin. yes. mr. redlich. and this is what she told you? mr. martin. yes. mr. dulles. the persons involved in the walker incident? mr. martin. yes. she said that lee did it alone without any help. there was no one with him. mr. redlich. mr. martin, i have at this time no further questions other than those which may be suggested by a perusal of the records which you have forwarded to this commission. as we indicated in the brief recess earlier, mr. dulles is able to be here at o'clock this evening, and i would envisage then a very brief session at which time your testimony would be completed. mr. martin. all right. mr. redlich. are there any questions that anyone would like to ask of mr. martin at this time? the chairman. would you like to ask your client any questions? mr. leech. no. i am not going to make that mistake. (laughter.) the chairman. all right. mr. dulles. i have no questions. i will reserve them for tonight. i don't think i have any further questions. the chairman. mr. rhyne, do you have any questions you would like to ask. mr. rankin, are you through for the day? mr. rankin. until o'clock. the chairman. well then, gentlemen, we will adjourn until o'clock. (whereupon, at : p.m., the president's commission recessed.) evening session testimony of james herbert martin resumed the president's commission reconvened at : p.m. mr. dulles. the committee will come to order. will you continue with the testimony? mr. redlich. thank you, mr. dulles. mr. martin, at our last session i asked you whether you knew jack ruby, and you replied that you did. you indicated the brief contact that you have had with him and the two times, i believe, that you have been to his business establishment? mr. martin. yes. mr. redlich. apart from your own personal contact with jack ruby, do you have any other information about him and his activities which you would like to present before this commission? mr. martin. no, nothing that i definitely know about him. it is just he is a city character. he is very friendly to everyone. mr. redlich. please understand i am not asking you for rumors or that type of thing. mr. martin. no, i know. well, just what i know of him, he seems very friendly to everyone, and he is always around. you are liable to see him anywhere. mr. redlich. has he ever been to the motel that you have? mr. martin. yes, i mentioned that. mr. redlich. oh, yes. mr. martin. he brought that twist board out there one time. mr. redlich. never been there as a guest? mr. martin. no. mr. redlich. i hand you a copy of an invoice for a revere recorder and a , -foot reel of recording tape, and ask you if you have ever seen this? mr. martin. yes. that is a tape recorder that i rented and recorded the---- mr. redlich. i will ask you about it shortly. i would just like to know if you are familiar with it. mr. martin. yes. mr. redlich. mr. chairman, i am marking this as commission exhibit no. , and ask that it be admitted in evidence. mr. dulles. any objection? mr. leech. no, sir. mr. dulles. it may be admitted. (the tape recorder and tape invoice referred to were marked commission's exhibit no. for identification and received in evidence.) mr. redlich. mr. martin, i hand you commission exhibit no. , and ask you to tell the commission the conditions under which this invoice arose? mr. martin. we had marina's manuscript interpreted by ilya mamantov, and this was part of it. he was only able to interpret about half of it. mr. redlich. he interpreted it and put it on tape? mr. martin. and we recorded that on tape as he interpreted it. mr. dulles. how do you mean interpreted? mr. martin. he read it in english? mr. dulles. oh, i see, translated it. mr. martin. yes. mr. dulles. from russian into english? mr. martin. yes. mr. redlich. when i asked you this afternoon about your knowledge as to the accuracy of that story, i take it your reply was based upon this translation? mr. martin. yes. mr. redlich. and this only encompasses about half of the entire story, is that right? mr. martin. it is more than half, it is about pages, i guess. mr. redlich. did she consult with you at all in the preparation of that story? mr. martin. no. mr. redlich. and there is nothing on this tape other than the english translation of that russian story? mr. martin. that is true. mr. dulles. do we have that translation as well as the copy of the original? mr. redlich. yes, mr. chairman, we have the original in russian and then it was translated by mr. gopadze, of the secret service. mr. martin. actually our translation is very poor. he was not able to translate properly into english a lot of the phrases. mr. dulles. who is "he," illa? isn't that ilya, by the way? mr. martin. i am not sure. mr. dulles. that is generally the russian, i don't know. mr. rankin. that is right. mr. martin. it might be. mr. dulles. yes. mr. martin. but he is professor at smu. he has a list of titles that long. he is very well thought of. i think he works for sun oil company, and is a well-respected individual. his wife and his mother, i believe, teach russian also. i think his mother taught mrs. paine a good deal of her russian. mr. redlich. mr. martin, i would like to show you commission exhibit no. which was introduced earlier today. mr. leech, i believe you have a photostat of this. if you could hand it to me during the course of this questioning. i would appreciate it. mr. leech. yes. mr. redlich. thank you. could you tell the commission what this document purports to state, and then i will ask you about individual items. mr. martin. these are contracts that we have made both in writing and verbally for marina oswald's right, her story rights. mr. redlich. and the first item appearing on commission exhibit no. is a contract with texitalia films. mr. martin. yes. mr. redlich. would you describe the terms and conditions of that contract? mr. martin. texitalia films is planning a -minute technicolor documentary to start. they will pay $ , for world-wide movie and the tv rights. mr. dulles. excuse me, is this a documentary of marina's life? mr. martin. yes. any movie or television appearances marina would be paid $ , plus expenses for each appearance. then for each personal appearance, for instance, the film opens in st. louis on such and such a date and they would like for her to be there to make a personal appearance for the showing, the opening of the film, she would receive $ , plus expenses for each public appearance of that nature. mr. redlich. and this contract according to this exhibit was signed on february , ? mr. martin. yes. mr. leech. by her? mr. martin. no, by me acting for her. mr. redlich. by you acting on behalf of mrs. oswald? mr. martin. yes, in accordance with my contract with her. mr. redlich. the second item appearing here is a contract with life magazine. would you tell the commission about that? mr. martin. life magazine purchased the rights, north american rights on a photograph of lee harvey oswald with a rifle and pistol, primarily for their use on a cover issue. mr. dulles. that is what appeared on the recent cover issue, i guess, it was weeks ago. mr. martin. yes, sir. now, that $ , has been paid. we have the $ , in an escrow account. mr. redlich. did you actually have in your possession the photograph, a copy of which appeared on the cover of life magazine? mr. martin. no. mr. redlich. could you tell us how this contract was consummated, in view of the fact that life magazine apparently printed on its cover a photograph which you never possessed? mr. martin. they knew the photographs belonged to marina. they have a common law copyright, and the only way they could legally use the film is to purchase the rights from marina. mr. redlich. did life magazine indicate to you where they obtained the photograph? mr. martin. no. mr. redlich. have you had conversations with other publications concerning that photograph? mr. martin. yes. i made the contact with the london daily mirror for the purchase of the british commonwealth rights on that same photograph, and they guaranteed $ , plus - split on what they sold in the commonwealth. it was restricted to the commonwealth only. however, the london daily mail came out with the photograph prior to the mirror, and i was informed by mr. weggand of the london daily express that the detroit free press had sold this photograph to the london daily mail for $ . mr. redlich. do you have any idea how the detroit free press obtained this photograph? mr. martin. no. i talked to ken murray, who i was informed was the attorney for the detroit free press. mr. redlich. where did you talk to him? mr. martin. at his home in detroit. mr. redlich. by phone? mr. martin. by telephone. and he stated that the photograph was public property, and not covered under common law copyright. i asked him where he got the photo, and he said he got it at the same place as life did, through a leak in the commission. i talked to life magazine attorney--i can't remember his name. it is a very odd name. it begins with an "s". now, murray said that life had informed him that they had gotten it from a leak through the commission, and i contacted life and he denied saying anything of the sort to murray. however, murray insisted that that is where he got that and he figured it was public domain. mr. redlich. at the start of today's testimony when you mentioned the possibility of a leak with regard to this photograph, something that you said prior to the actual start of hearings, mr. rankin and i commented on that assertion. would you tell the commission what we said? mr. martin. that there was definitely not a leak in the commission, and that you would certainly find out what murray was talking about. mr. redlich. did you talk to an editor of the detroit free press with regard to this photograph? mr. martin. i called at night. it was at night, and i asked for the news editor. he was not in, so i talked to a reporter, and he couldn't say anything about it. he referred me to ken murray and gave me his home telephone number. mr. redlich. the next item on commission exhibit no. has reference to stern magazine. would you tell the commission about that, please? mr. martin. stern magazine we have been working with since the middle of december. they have been quite patient actually. for $ , they wanted marina's memoirs and photographs, available photographs for use in germany and italy only. they wanted exclusive use in those two countries. then they would endeavor to sell these same memoirs and pictures to other european countries, limiting it only to european countries, and take a percent commission on any sales that they made, the remaining percent going to marina. mr. redlich. has this contract been signed? mr. martin. yes. mr. redlich. do you know when it was signed? can you approximate the date? mr. martin. i confirmed it by wire to them. it is in the exhibits. mr. redlich. we have not introduced---- mr. martin. you haven't come to that yet. mr. redlich. we do not intend to introduce the specific documents into the record, just this summary. mr. leech. give him an approximate date. mr. redlich. you say it was confirmed by telegram. mr. martin. yes, it was confirmed by telegram to spiegelberg. mr. leech. when? mr. martin. in new york. december at : p.m. mr. redlich. the next item on commission exhibit no. also refers to stern magazine, an item of $ , . could you comment on that? mr. martin. this was a recent development wherein since they could not send an author in to talk to marina, they purchased seven photographs for a total of $ , , to take the memoirs later. however, they will not hold off the memoirs forever. mr. redlich. these seven photographs are photographs of what? mr. martin. of marina and lee harvey oswald together and separate. mr. redlich. these were photographs which were not turned over to the dallas police? mr. martin. no. they were photographs that we were given prints of by the fbi. the fbi sent prints of these photographs to us. mr. redlich. am i correct in assuming that all of the photographs which were in the possession of marina oswald and lee harvey oswald, either in his apartment or in the paine's apartment, were turned over to the dallas police? is that right? mr. martin. as far as i know. mr. redlich. to the best of your knowledge? mr. martin. yes. mr. redlich. and that any photographs which you have and which have been the basis of any contract are copies which were made available to you by some law enforcement authority? mr. martin. yes. now, there was a check, there was a $ cash down payment made on this $ , . then a check for $ , ; the check was stopped, payment on the check was stopped because of a letter written by william mckenzie saying that i had no authority to sign any contracts whatsoever for marina, and that if they did use anything that i had sold them, litigation would follow immediately. so consequently they stopped payment on the check. i still have the check. it is still attached to the letter that was sent with it. mr. dulles. could i ask who is that check made out to? mr. martin. made out to me. mr. dulles. to you as agent? mr. martin. yes. mr. dulles. or to you just in your name? mr. martin. i think it is just made out to me. mr. dulles. i don't know if it is important. mr. leech. you go ahead and i'll find it. mr. martin. under the contract all checks were supposed to be made payable to me. then i would deduct my fee and forward the balance to marina. mr. redlich. the next item on commission exhibit no. refers to meredith press. mr. martin. the meredith press is a book publisher with their main office in des moines, iowa. i had talked with mr. ted purdy at great length and on numerous occasions by phone. we had negotiated world book rights for marina oswald's story. for this meredith press would pay a $ , advance to her. then on the first printing would be a percent commission of the retail price of the book. on the second printing would be - / percent commission, and on the third and succeeding printings it would be percent commission. now, of course, the commissions were to be deducted from the advance. mr. redlich. and this was to be her life story? mr. martin. yes. mr. redlich. had you discussed with marina at all the contents of this book? had you started making any preparations for writing? mr. martin. no. i am not a writer, and wouldn't know the first thing to do about a book. but we had negotiated with one writer, isaac don levine, who meredith press felt would be the best writer available for this type of book because of the russian attachment. mr. redlich. when you told us this morning of your initial concern over the nixon shooting incident, did it relate to these various agreements that you have been working on concerning the sale of marina oswald's story? mr. martin. did it relate to them? mr. redlich. yes. mr. martin. how do you mean? mr. redlich. were you concerned about the publicity, the effect of the publicity of the nixon incident on these various agreements which you were negotiating at the time? mr. martin. no. as a matter of fact, it would enhance the price of it. for instance, the post magazine, the saturday evening post, said that they would like to buy american serial rights if there was something in marina's story that the commission did not know. mr. redlich. when did they tell you this? mr. martin. around the first of the year i guess. mr. redlich. around the first of the year. did marina know about this? mr. martin. no. mr. redlich. this is the saturday evening post you are talking about? mr. martin. yes. i talked to a mr. black. mr. redlich. and the saturday evening post said to you that they would buy the serial rights provided there was some information which would not be known to the commission? mr. martin. yes. i told them there was no realm that would apply, and we closed negotiations. mr. redlich. and you say you didn't relate this fact at all to marina oswald? mr. martin. no. mr. redlich. these negotiations with the post. mr. martin. no. mr. redlich. was there in fact to the best of your knowledge material which she did not in fact relate to this commission? mr. martin. not to my knowledge other than the nixon affair. mr. redlich. and were you aware at the time she completed her testimony here that she had not related this information to the commission? mr. martin. yes. mr. redlich. was there any connection between her failure to tell the commission of the nixon incident and the negotiations, the temporary negotiations that you had had with the saturday evening post? mr. martin. no, none whatsoever. that was closed off at least days before she testified. mr. redlich. was there any attempt on your part or anyone acting on marina oswald's part that you know of to negotiate the sale of the information concerning the nixon shooting incident? mr. martin. no, not to my knowledge. mr. redlich. when marina--did marina ever give you an explanation for why she did not tell the commission about the nixon incident? mr. martin. no. i have never talked to her about that other than the first time that she told me about it. i asked john thorne if she had mentioned it. i didn't discuss it with her. mr. redlich. and since marina oswald's return from washington after having testified here, you say you have never discussed the nixon incident with marina oswald in any way? mr. martin. no. i probably would have had there been sufficient time. of course, she left my home the following day after she got back from washington. mr. redlich. when you say you probably would have, in what way? mr. martin. well, since she didn't mention it to the commission, i feel the commission should know about it. mr. dulles. did you know at this time she had not mentioned it to the commission? mr. martin. i asked john thorne. mr. dulles. oh, you asked john thorne? mr. martin. yes. mr. redlich. what did john thorne say? mr. martin. said she had not mentioned it. mr. redlich. did you ask john thorne why she had not mentioned it? mr. martin. no. mr. redlich. did john thorne offer any information as to why she had not mentioned it? mr. martin. no. mr. redlich. do you know whether john thorne had urged her to mention it? mr. martin. no. mr. redlich. john thorne was aware of the nixon incident prior to marina oswald's appearance before this commission, was he not? mr. martin. yes. mr. redlich. because you had apparently told him about that shortly after you learned about it in january. mr. martin. yes. mr. redlich. did you discuss the nixon incident with robert oswald after marina oswald's appearance before this commission in february? mr. martin. no. mr. redlich. you had not? mr. martin. i don't know if i discussed it with him prior to the commission's testimony or not. i may or i may not have. i don't know. i don't know whether i mentioned it to him or not. mr. redlich. coming back to commission exhibit no. , the next item under london daily mirror, am i correct in assuming that this is, that this item refers to the rifle photo which you discussed earlier in your testimony tonight? mr. martin. yes, that is right. mr. redlich. do you have anything to add with regard to that rifle photo that you have not already told us? mr. martin. no. mr. redlich. did you discuss with marina oswald at any time this rifle photo and the circumstances under which it was taken. mr. martin. i asked her at one time why he wanted a photograph taken of that type, and she said she didn't know. he just wanted pictures taken that way. mr. redlich. did she tell you when this photograph was taken in relationship to any other incidents such as the general walker incident or the richard nixon incident? mr. martin. no. mr. redlich. did you know where the photograph was taken? mr. martin. i don't know, i don't even know if it was in oak cliff or not. i have an idea that it was in oak cliff but i don't know whether i know that or whether i have read it. mr. redlich. when you say oak cliff, some of us don't live in dallas. mr. martin. it is a suburb of dallas, a section of dallas. mr. redlich. are you referring to the area where the neely street house was located? to refresh your recollection, mr. martin, the oswalds lived in two places in dallas. one was on elsbeth street and the other on neely. are they both in oak cliff? mr. martin. yes, elsbeth street is right around the corner from neely street, i believe they lived in an apartment on elsbeth. it was a group of apartments in one building, and on neely street, i think, that was similar to a duplex. mr. redlich. and you are not certain as to where this photograph which was the subject of these negotiations was taken? mr. martin. no, except that the elsbeth address, i believe, was a brick residence, i mean a brick apartment, it is a dark building, and the neely street address is a white building. i believe the photo shows a white building. mr. redlich. on the basis of that you would conclude the photograph was taken at which address? mr. martin. at the neely street address. mr. redlich. at the neely street address. when you were negotiating with various publications for this photograph, didn't anyone ask you when and where it was taken? mr. martin. yes, i told them that it was while they were living in oak cliff. i didn't say where or when. mr. redlich. no one asked you. mr. martin. and they apparently weren't concerned with the where or when. mr. redlich. did they ask you anything about the publication which lee oswald had in his hand? mr. martin. yes, and i told them that it was either the militant or the worker. i was not sure which one. i am not even sure whether either one. mr. redlich. your copy of the photograph did not indicate clearly which one it was? mr. martin. correct. mr. redlich. do you now know which one it was? mr. martin. no. mr. dulles. are you sure it is one of the two? mr. martin. no, i am not. i assume that it would be one of the two. mr. redlich. for the record it is the militant. mr. dulles. it is? mr. redlich. is there anything about the circumstances of this photograph, including the rifle, the pistol, the time, the place, anything concerning this photograph that you have not told this commission about which you have knowledge? mr. martin. no. mr. redlich. the last item on commission exhibit no. is this week magazine, $ , . could you tell us about that. at the conclusion of this list i will ask if there is anything else. we are now at this week magazine. mr. martin. when marina was here in washington, she had the press conference, and at the end of the press conference she mentioned, she made a statement "now i go to church." on the way to the cbs studios we passed a russian orthodox church, and she remarked about it, that she would like to come back and go inside, see what it looked like. someone in this week magazine caught that statement, and wanted to write a short article on marina going to church, and that is what that is. mr. redlich. what happened? could you tell us how this article got written? mr. martin. it hasn't been written. mr. redlich. did the reporter accompany mrs. oswald to church? mr. martin. oh, no. actually when the television interview was over, we came back and went to the church, but the church was locked and we didn't get in at all. now this contact was made after we left washington. this week magazine contacted us after, not while we were still here. mr. redlich. and what was the subject matter of this article specifically supposed to be? mr. martin. the title of it was supposed to be "i go to church," and it would be an article written on marina going to church. mr. redlich. mr. martin, the total figure on the bottom of commission exhibit no. is $ , . this presumably does not include any future royalties, is that correct? mr. martin. that is correct. mr. redlich. have you made an estimate as to the total earnings which would accrue as a result of these contractual arrangements? mr. martin. it should be approximately $ , at a maximum, depending on what american serial rights and british commonwealth serial rights, asiatic serial rights would bring. mr. redlich. you say the maximum of $ , ? mr. martin. i think so. mr. leech. of those contracts? mr. redlich. that is what i am asking about are these. mr. martin. of these contracts, yes. mr. redlich. could you tell us about any other contractual arrangements that you have made or are negotiating on behalf of marina oswald? mr. martin. there are no others. i will have to refer to things. we had an offer from australia and also from new zealand as far as this photograph is concerned. however, it was thrown to the wind by the detroit free press, so they got it from detroit free press, we have been offered--we have not received an offer. the australian newspaper---- mr. dulles. do you need these details do you think? mr. redlich. i want to get the total figure, mr. chairman. mr. martin. associated newspapers limited of australia would like to have australian rights to a book that marina would write, and also the london evening standard would like to have the british rights, of course, to the picture of lee harvey oswald. mr. redlich. mr. martin, mr. thorne has indicated to this commission that he estimated that marina's earnings would approach approximately $ , . would you comment on that estimate? mr. martin. i think it might be a little high. of course, if you take into consideration she has $ , , close to $ , in contributions alone, then the advances on this exhibit no. , that is $ , right there. i think $ , might be just a little bit high. mr. redlich. the final document i would like to show you is a photostat of a letter which you presented to the commission today, purporting to be a letter written in russian together with an english translation. it starts, the english translation starts with the words "as the widow of lee oswald." i show you commission exhibit no. and ask you if this is a photostat of the letter which you submitted to the commission this morning. mr. martin. yes, apparently so. mr. dulles. who is that letter to? mr. redlich. we don't know yet. mr. dulles. you don't know yet? mr. redlich. i will develop that in the questioning. i mark this commission exhibit no. , being a russian letter and what purports to be its english translation and ask that it be admitted in evidence. mr. dulles. can you identify that any further than just a russian letter? mr. redlich. on the top appears a date, and the day of the month is the th. i am unable to tell what month it is. mr. martin. but the year is , and the words "dallas, texas" then appear under the date. mr. dulles. that helps identify it. mr. redlich. i ask that it be admitted in evidence. mr. dulles. any objection? mr. leech. no objection. mr. dulles. it is admitted. (the photostats of a russian letter with an english translation were marked commission exhibit no. for identification and received in evidence.) mr. redlich. mr. martin, with your permission i would just summarize the contents of this letter, and if i have summarized it inaccurately, just say so. this letter requests that the death penalty not be applied to jack ruby, the person who has been charged with the murder of lee harvey oswald. is that inaccurate? mr. martin. no; that is correct. mr. redlich. that is a correct summary of the contents of the letter? mr. martin. yes. mr. redlich. do you recall to whom that letter was written? mr. martin. she originally wrote the letter to melvin belli. mr. redlich. by "she" you mean marina oswald? mr. martin. marina. i advised her against---- mr. redlich. melvin belli? mr. martin. is the attorney for jack ruby. i advised her against such an action, because of the possibility of the letter itself in translating from russian to english being misinterpreted and used in a manner that might be derogatory to marina oswald. i suggested that she send this letter to henry wade who would be the prosecutor in the case. now whether she changed the salutation on the letter i don't know. i can't read russian. and the salutation was not translated in the translation. the translation was made by katya ford. mr. redlich. to the best of your knowledge has this letter ever been sent to anyone? mr. martin. no sir, it hasn't. mr. dulles. you say it has not been? mr. martin. it has not been. mr. dulles. that is your belief or you have knowledge that it has not been? mr. martin. i have the original. now if a letter has been sent, it would be a different letter. mr. redlich. on the basis of your knowledge of marina oswald's handwriting, would you tell the commission whether you believe that this letter is in her handwriting? mr. martin. yes, it is. i also observed her writing the letter. mr. redlich. are you aware of the fact that marina oswald discussed this letter when she appeared before this commission? mr. martin. i believe you mentioned it sometime today. mr. redlich. were you aware of it prior to your coming here? mr. martin. no. mr. redlich. do you know why it has not been sent? mr. martin. she decided that it was best not to be sent unless she actually thought that ruby was going to get the death penalty. actually a letter like that should go to the governor of the state. mr. redlich. mr. martin, do you have any additional information concerning the assassination of president kennedy, marina oswald, or the assassination of her husband lee harvey oswald which you would like to present before this commission at this time? mr. martin. no, i don't think so. nothing. mr. redlich. if it would be helpful for the work of this commission for you to return to washington and appear again before this commission, would you be willing to do so? mr. martin. yes, sir. mr. redlich. mr. chairman, i have no further questions of this witness, unless mr. rankin does or you do. mr. dulles. i would just like to ask a question about this letter i am just glancing over. where did this letter paper come from? is that some personal paper with a tree on it? mr. martin. yes. i bought that. mr. dulles. you bought it for her? mr. martin. at a drug store, yes, sir, at a drug store in arlington. mr. dulles. is this another draft or is this just a copy? mr. martin. this is the original of the copy. mr. redlich. we have photographed what is now commission exhibit no. and we are keeping the photostat. mr. martin, you will recall that at the start of today's proceedings chief justice warren read into the record a copy of the letter which you received requesting certain notes, records, documents in connection with today's hearing. have you made available to the commission all of the material which was requested in that letter? mr. martin. yes, sir; i went through everything i had at home, and could find nothing else. mr. redlich. if you should find anything else which you inadvertently failed to bring before this commission, will you mail it to us for examination and we will return it to you. mr. martin. yes, sir; there is a worker that i have. mr. redlich. you mean by worker the daily worker? mr. martin. yes. i think they dropped the "daily." mr. dulles. they are no longer daily. mr. martin. it is called the worker now. it has quite a lengthy article about marina in it, and i will send that to you. mr. redlich. and you will send anything that you may come across which you may have inadvertently failed to produce before this commission? mr. martin. yes, sir. mr. redlich. i have no further questions, mr. chairman. mr. dulles. there were some questions that senator cooper had suggested. i don't know, have you looked those over? have they been covered? mr. rankin. yes. mr. redlich. those have been covered. mr. dulles. all been covered? mr. redlich. yes. mr. dulles. did marina ever express to you her opinion as to the guilt or innocence of her husband in connection with the assassination of the president? mr. martin. yes. mr. dulles. what did she say? mr. martin. she believes he was guilty. she believes he did it, and the first time she said it i questioned her as to why she thought he did it, and she said she just felt it. it was a woman's intuition. she didn't know the word intuition at that time. i had to look it up in the russian-english dictionary. mr. dulles. did she indicate any view as to whether he did it alone or had an accomplice or accomplices? mr. martin. she remarked about the walker incident, that that was definitely done alone, and that he always was alone. he never did anything with anyone else. i don't recall that she mentioned that specifically in the case of the assassination of the president. but she had made that remark before or during the interim about walker. mr. dulles. did she ever at any time express to you any interest in returning to the soviet union or her desire to stay in the united states? mr. martin. well, she has always said that she wanted to stay in the united states. one time she said that she thought she would go back to russia, and i asked her why and she said, well, she was just joking. mr. dulles. did she ever refer to you any letters she wrote to the soviet embassy with regard to a desire to return? mr. martin. no. there was only one incident that she told me about was a letter to a friend in russia. mr. dulles. you mentioned that i think. mr. martin. yes. mr. dulles. the one that she didn't put enough stamps on, enough postage on. mr. martin. yes, it came back "insufficient postage." mr. dulles. did she ever mention to you any names of any friends or associates of her husband that had not been discussed here at one time or another in this testimony, including the list of names that was read out to you? mr. martin. no. mr. dulles. do you know any other friends that marina has other than those that have been discussed in this testimony? mr. martin. no. i was trying to think a while ago about that, and i can't think of anyone else. mr. dulles. that is all i have. mr. redlich. mr. leech, would you like to ask mr. martin any questions at this time? mr. leech. not a word. mr. dulles. mr. rhyne? mr. rankin, have you any further questions? mr. rankin. mr. chairman, i merely wish to thank him for appearing voluntarily. mr. dulles. i do thank you for coming and responding so fully to our questions. mr. martin. anything i can do. mr. dulles. and if anything occurs to you or to your counsel as sometimes happens later, we will be very glad if you or your counsel will bring it to our attention. mr. martin. yes, sir; i certainly will. mr. redlich. may i before we adjourn ask another question? mr. dulles. certainly. mr. redlich. have you ever discussed with mrs. marguerite oswald the question of the guilt or innocence of lee harvey oswald? mr. martin. no. the only time i was in contact with marguerite oswald was at the inn of the six flags in arlington, tex., and i don't believe i really discussed anything with her. i was more on the sidelines and didn't enter into any discussions with her at all. mr. redlich. and have you discussed with robert oswald the question of the guilt or innocence of lee harvey oswald? mr. martin. yes. let's see, on one occasion the article by mark lane, i think it was in the national observer, was printed in the national observer, and i called robert's attention to that. i believe he cited points where he believed that lee oswald was innocent, and i remarked to robert that in nearly percent of those points they were just completely out of line. the brief i believe was taken from newspaper accounts, from various newspaper accounts of the assassination, and a number of them contradicted each other. mr. redlich. did robert oswald comment on this? mr. martin. no. mr. redlich. for the record i believe the publication you are referring to is the national guardian. mr. martin. the national guardian, yes. mr. redlich. is that your recollection now? mr. martin. yes, national guardian. mr. redlich. and robert oswald had no comment on this? mr. martin. no. mr. redlich. we have no further questions. mr. dulles. the commission will stand adjourned, subject to call. (whereupon, at : p.m., the president's commission recessed.) _wednesday, march , _ testimony of mark lane the president's commission met at : p.m., on march , , at maryland avenue ne., washington, d.c. present were chief justice earl warren, chairman; senator john sherman cooper and representative gerald r. ford, members. also present were j. lee rankin, general counsel; norman redlich, assistant counsel; charles murray and charles rhyne, assistants to walter e. craig. the chairman. the commission will be in order. the commission has been informed that mr. lane has collected numerous materials relevant to the commission's work. the commission proposes to question mr. lane on all matters of which he has knowledge concerning the assassination of president kennedy and the subsequent killing of lee harvey oswald, and to request of mr. lane that he make available to the commission any documentary material in his possession which can assist the commission in its work. in accordance with the rules of this commission, mr. lane has been furnished with a copy of this statement. mr. lane, would please rise and be sworn? do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. lane. i do. the chairman. will you be seated, please. mr. rankin, would you proceed with the examination, please? mr. rankin. mr. lane, will you state your name? mr. lane. my name is mark lane. mr. rankin. where do you live? mr. lane. west th street, new york city, new york state. mr. rankin. are you a practicing lawyer? mr. lane. yes; i am. mr. rankin. will you state your age, please? mr. lane. i am years old. mr. rankin. how long have you been practicing law? mr. lane. thirteen years. mr. rankin. you have qualified in the state of new york? mr. lane. yes. mr. rankin. are you qualified in any other jurisdiction? mr. lane. just in the federal court. mr. rankin. do you have some information concerning the matters being investigated by the commission that you would like to present to the commission? mr. lane. yes; i do. mr. rankin. will you proceed to do so? mr. lane. yes. i wonder if i might ask at the outset if i will be able to secure a copy of the transcript of my testimony tomorrow, or is that going to be rushing things? the chairman. you will be able to obtain it. i don't know whether we can promise it to you tomorrow morning or not. but we will do it just as quickly as it can be transcribed by the reporter. mr. lane. thank you, sir. at the outset, i would like to request that this portion of the hearing, in any event, be opened to the public. i think that there are matters here of grave concern to all the people of our country, and that it would, therefore, be fruitful and constructive for the sessions to be conducted in a public fashion, open to the public and to the press. accordingly, i request that this session at least involving my testimony be so opened to the public. the chairman. you would have a right, as any witness would have, to request that, mr. lane. we will conduct this in an open hearing. we will adjourn at this time to the auditorium downstairs, and we will conduct the hearing there. it will be open to the public. i saw a good many members of the press around, so it will really be a public affair. (whereupon, at : p.m., the commission recessed and then reconvened in the auditorium in open session.) testimony of mark lane resumed in open session the chairman. the commission will be in order. the commission convened in our committee room on the fourth floor. a reporter has been appointed. mr. lane has been sworn. mr. lane has stated that he would like to give his testimony at a public hearing. i explained to him that that was thoroughly agreeable to the commission. the commission does not operate in a secret way. any witness who desires to have his--give his testimony in public may do so. we have done it in the quiet of our rooms for the convenience of witnesses, and in order to accelerate the program. but any witness who desires to have his testimony recorded at a public hearing may do so. the purpose of this commission is, of course, eventually to make known to the president, and to the american public everything that has transpired before this commission. all of it will be made available at the appropriate time. the records of the work of the commission will be preserved for the public. so, mr. lane, we will be happy to accommodate you, and to proceed with our hearing. now, mr. rankin will conduct the examination. (having been previously duly sworn.) mr. rankin. mr. lane, will you proceed to tell the commission whatever you have that would bear upon this investigation? start item by item, and give us whatever you have in support. mr. lane. yes, sir. at the outset, i would like to call to the commission's attention a matter which is somewhat peripheral, perhaps, and should the commission determine it does not wish to hear my testimony in that regard, i will understand that. but i would like to call it to your attention, because although it is peripheral i think it is related to both the assassination and the investigation into the assassination of the president. that is in relationship to a picture which has been widely publicized, probably in every single community of our country, allegedly showing lee harvey oswald holding in his hand a rifle which has been described in at least one publication, life magazine, as the weapon with which he assassinated president kennedy. i would like to indicate to the commission at this time that the pictures which have been distributed throughout the country included doctored and forged photographs. i would like to present evidence to the commission at this time in that regard. i ask the commission if it does conclude that the photographs have been doctored, whether it will consider determining whether or not a crime has been committed, or an effort has been made to submit evidence to the commission members, though not directly through the press, from magazines, which evidence---- the chairman. i didn't get that last sentence--something about the commission? mr. lane. i am asking the commission if it does conclude that the pictures have been doctored, to consider investigating the method by which the doctoring took place, who was responsible, and whether or not an effort has been made to influence the members of the commission, while not directly, through the publication of this picture, which certainly has been circulated very widely throughout our country. the chairman. you may be sure, mr. lane, that anything you present in that regard will be thoroughly considered by the commission. mr. lane. thank you, sir. i would like to offer the february , issue of life magazine. mr. rankin. will you mark that, mr. reporter, please, the next number. mr. lane. a picture appears on the entire cover of life magazine, and an identical picture appears in the interior pages, at page . the caption on the cover reads, "lee oswald with the weapons he used to kill president kennedy and officer tippit." i think it is quite plain from looking at both of the pictures that there appears on the rifle, what appears to be a rifle in the left hand of lee harvey oswald, a telescopic sight. mr. rankin. mr. lane, we will mark that exhibit no. . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , for identification.) mr. lane. next i would like to offer a picture which is a glossy - / -by- picture, of a photograph published in the new york times, secured by the new york times from the associated press. representative ford. is there any verification of the fact that that is as you have identified it? mr. lane. that is what--a picture secured---- representative ford. from the new york times, which in turn had acquired it from the associated press? mr. lane. well, that is a statement which i have made under oath, and it can be verified with the new york times. mr. rankin. that is exhibit that you are just referring to, mr. lane. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , for identification.) mr. lane. i suggest that is the identical picture with the one published on the cover of life magazine, exhibit , in every respect, including the creases in the trousers, the background, with the exception of the rifle in the hands of oswald, which appears to have no telescopic scope in exhibit . in addition, there clearly has been some other doctoring of the photograph around the head of lee harvey oswald, and the trees and other background material over his left shoulder have been removed from the associated press picture, but are present in the life magazine picture. shadows and fenceposts which can be observed between the legs of lee harvey oswald in exhibit have been removed in the life magazine picture. i would like to offer this picture as the next exhibit. mr. rankin. that will be marked exhibit . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. rankin. will you tell us what that is, mr. lane? mr. lane. yes; is an - / -by- glossy photograph of a picture appearing in newsweek magazine, march , , credited by newsweek magazine to the detroit free press. i would suggest that that is an identical picture with the other two pictures in every respect, except that it has no telescopic sight on the rifle, and there is a great deal of metallic materials present on that rifle clearly not present in the other two pictures. the chairman. did you say metallics? mr. lane. metallics. mr. rankin. will you tell us what you mean by that, mr. lane? mr. lane. yes. just below the hand, the left hand of lee harvey oswald, there is clearly visible a series of pieces of metal, allegedly part of the rifle, which are in no way clear--which are in no way present in the other pictures. the chairman. i see. mr. lane. to make that clearer, i would like to offer exhibit , which is an enlargement of the picture , the new york times picture. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , for identification.) mr. lane. this enlarges the area on the rifle just below what is allegedly oswald's left hand. it clearly shows an absolute absence of all of the metallic material present in the newsweek photo, . this is a front page of the new york journal american dated february , , which is an identical picture with the one published in life magazine, exhibit , and the credit lines appearing on that publication indicate that the picture has been secured from the associated press through the detroit free press. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , for identification.) mr. lane. that picture has a telescopic sight, and is not the picture in terms of the metal material on the rifle which newsweek stated they secured through the detroit free press, and is not the picture without the telescopic sight which the new york times states that it secured through the associated press. in any event, i would like to submit a picture procured from worldwide photos. mr. rankin. . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , for identification.) mr. lane. this is allegedly a picture taken in the dallas police station, showing the alleged murder weapon. the chairman. that is no. , mr. lane? mr. lane. yes, sir, and i would call the commission's attention to the curved line of the stock present in exhibit , and obviously absent from every other picture, indicating that in no event is the rifle allegedly in the hands of lee oswald, in exhibits through comparable to the alleged murder weapon as shown in the dallas police station. and should the commission decide to investigate the obviously doctored pictures that have been circulated so widely in our country, i would refer the commission investigators to the times picayune of new orleans, published on november , , in which an associated press story indicated that the dallas police chief, jesse curry, stated that he had in his possession photographs found in the home of lee harvey oswald's russian-born wife which linked oswald with the rifle used in the assassination of president kennedy. curry said in the article attributed to curry---- mr. rankin. do you wish to make that a part of the record? mr. lane. yes. mr. rankin. that will be exhibit . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. lane. the article attributes a statement to curry indicating that he, the dallas police chief, found the pictures in the suburban irving, tex., home in which marina oswald lived, and stated that mr. curry had said that the pictures will be used in evidence in oswald's murder trial. this was published, i assume, prior to the time that oswald was himself killed on that day. representative ford. would the date of the paper be on the back side? the chairman. it is on the front. november th. mr. lane. i would like to offer this as an exhibit. mr. rankin. this is marked commission exhibit . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , for identification.) mr. lane. exhibit is a page or portion of a page of the new york times, on sunday, december , with a picture of the alleged murder weapon, secured, according to the credit line under the picture, from the united press international, indicating clearly that that rifle is not the rifle allegedly being held by mr. oswald in any of the pictures so widely circulated throughout our country. mr. rankin. on what do you base that last conclusion, mr. lane? would you point out to the commission the differences as you see them? mr. lane. yes; the reference of the stock. the stock has a clearly curved and bent line in this picture. mr. rankin. that is in exhibit ? mr. lane. yes, and it is present in none of the pictures of oswald holding the rifle; , for example, in newsweek magazine shows almost a straight stock. some of them show even an absolutely straight stock. exhibit from the new york times shows a perfectly straight stock--which is not only a stock unlike this particular italian . millimeter carbine, but is a stock i believe unlike any rifle stock produced during the th century, and possibly the th century, anywhere. rifle experts seem to agree that every stock must have in it some break, so that it is possible to place your hand around the rifle while your finger holds the trigger. and there is no break in the doctored photographs, in the stock portrayed on the doctored photographs. i have checked many rifle catalogs. this is not my field, and i don't qualify as an expert. but i have checked many rifle catalogs, and have only seen rifles with a break where the stock becomes narrow enough for one's hand to grasp it while pulling the trigger. mr. rankin. is that the basis of your opinion that you have just given, that it doesn't have a break in it, and that other rifles for any period later than you have described do? mr. lane. well, several persons who have described themselves as rifle experts have made that statement to me. mr. rankin. who are those? mr. lane. i believe i have some of their names here. i don't have the names of those who have called, but i can secure that at our first break by a telephone call to my office. mr. rankin. would you furnish that then? mr. lane. surely. in any event, whether there was another rifle or not, the rifle portrayed in the picture is clearly--in the picture in which oswald is allegedly holding the rifle--clearly is not the rifle allegedly claimed to be the murder weapon. i wonder if i might ask the commission if it might produce the rifle now, so that we might compare the actual rifle with the pictures. the chairman. we will do that in due course. but we don't have the rifle here now, mr. lane. we will make the proper comparisons, you may be sure, with experts. mr. lane. now, on another peripheral matter--unless there are any further questions in relation to this matter---- mr. rankin. no, you may proceed. do you have negatives of these pictures you have produced? mr. lane. no. i am glad you asked that question, because i can now relate to you about a conversation that i had or days ago with a mr. dirksen, who is on the photo desk of the associated press. i called mr. dirksen and asked him for a glossy of the picture which the associated press sent out over the wire service. mr. rankin. could you identify mr. dirksen a little more clearly? mr. lane. he just told me he was employed. i called the associated press in new york city and asked for the photo desk, mr. dirksen answered and said he was employed there. i asked him what his specific position was there, and he declined to give me that information. he said he didn't think it was relevant. in any event, i asked him if he could secure for me a glossy, a glossy copy of the picture sent by the associated press over the wires. and i described the picture as the one of oswald allegedly holding the murder weapon in his left hand, and having on his right hip a pistol, allegedly the pistol with which he slew officer tippit. mr. dirksen stated to me that he could not make a glossy of that picture available to me and i pointed out to him that in the past the associated press had been most cooperative when i asked for pictures, and he said, "yes, we sent a whole batch up to you last week, didn't we?" i said, "yes, you did, i appreciated that. i wonder why this picture is being treated differently from other pictures." he said, "this is not a normal picture and this is not the normal situation." i asked him what he meant by that. he explained that there was a special contract--he did not have all the details, he said, because he is not one of the persons who was involved in drafting the contract--but there was a special contract between the associated press and the source of this picture, and they agreed, the associated press agreed in this contract that they would not make a glossy available to anyone, that they would send the pictures out only to their subscribers, and that no one else would be allowed to see the picture. i said if that was the understanding, i certainly would not wish to have them breach their agreement, and asked if instead he would make the name of the source known to me, so that i might go directly to the source and see if i might secure the picture in that fashion. he stated he could not do that, because one of the other stipulations in the contract would be that they could not reveal the name of the source of the picture. i discussed this with an employee of the new york times thereafter, since i knew that the new york times was a subscriber to the services made available by the associated press. mr. rankin. could you identify that employee, please? mr. lane. no, i am not going to be able to discuss sources, obviously, here, i am sorry. but this employee indicated to me thereafter that an inquiry had been made by the new york times to the associated press along the same lines as the inquiry which i had made, in terms of trying to determine the source of the associated press picture. and i was informed by this employee of the new york times that the associated press declined to name the source of the picture, even when the new york times made a request. therefore, i do not have the negative, and i do not know the source of the picture. mr. rankin. is that true with regard to all of the pictures that you produced? mr. lane. my office called life magazine, and asked someone at life magazine on the photo desk, the editorial department, if a picture could be made available and they stated that they would not make a glossy available--it was their policy in reference to all pictures in their possession. those are the only inquiries i made with reference to the source of the pictures. mr. rankin. now you may proceed. mr. lane. yes. i would like to raise one other peripheral matter before going into the evidence, if i might. that is, i would like to call to the attention of the commission this article, and ask that it be marked as an exhibit. mr. rankin. that has been marked commission exhibit . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , for identification.) mr. lane. thank you. this is an article appearing in the new york journal american sunday, february . mr. rankin. this consists of two separate pages, does it not? mr. lane. it does--the first page being a masthead and front page, headline from the journal american, dated sunday, february , , and the second page containing a portion of the front page of the journal american on that date, and a portion of page , the continued story of the journal american on the same date. this is an article written by bob considine, who enjoys a reputation for being an excellent reporter. mr. considine states in his article that an eyewitness to the shooting of officer tippit by the name of warren reynolds was himself recently shot through the head by a man with a rifle. now, i don't believe that it is alleged that reynolds actually saw the person pull the trigger which sent the bullets at officer tippit. as i understand it, mr. reynolds has stated that he, reynolds, heard the shot, the shooting, left his office and saw a man running away, placing new shells into a pistol as he ran away. and mr. considine indicates that reynolds thereafter identified oswald as the person who was running from the scene. this article indicated that during january, mr. reynolds was himself shot through the head with a rifle, and that he is in the hospital--i believe he was in the hospital at that time. i don't know what the state of his health is at the present time. mr. considine indicates that a person was picked up in the dallas area and charged with the shooting, but that someone who mr. considine refers to as "his girl"--i assume he is making reference to the gentleman who was charged with the attack upon reynolds--testified in such a fashion, and took a lie detector test, so that the person charged with the crime was released. this person, betty mooney macdonald, who helped to free her friend, according to mr. considine, herself had worked as a stripper in the carousel club in dallas, owned by jack ruby. two weeks before this article was written, miss macdonald was herself arrested for a fight with her roommate, and the week before the article was written, mr. considine states she hanged herself in her cell. i would request the commission to investigate into these series of most unusual coincidences, to see if they have any bearing upon the basic matter pending before the commission. the chairman. it may be introduced as are all of these pictures, admitted. (the documents heretofore marked for identification as commission exhibits nos. to , were received in evidence.) mr. lane. in the course of my investigation, i have come across some material which would be relevant only if i was first able to examine the rifle, quite frankly. i wonder if that might be able to be accomplished sometime during the day? the chairman. during the day? mr. lane. today, if possible. the chairman. well, i think not, because we don't have it. but we will make it available to you, though, at the very first opportunity, mr. lane. mr. lane. fine. then i will reserve my comment in reference to the rifle for that occasion. the chairman. you may. mr. lane. thank you. i would like to, on behalf of lee harvey oswald, make this information available to the commission. it, of course, has been alleged by the chief of police of dallas, and by the district attorney of dallas that oswald was present on the sixth floor of the texas book depository building during the very early afternoon of november , , and that from that area he fired an italian carbine, . millimeters, three times, twice striking the president of the united states, wounding him fatally, and injuring the governor of texas by striking him with a bullet, on one occasion. the physician who signed the death certificate of the president pronouncing him dead was dr. kemp clark, whose name appeared on the official homicide report filed by the dallas police department, and attested to by two police officers. on the th of november, the new york times reported, "dr. kemp clark, who pronounced mr. kennedy dead, said one bullet struck him at about the necktie knot, 'it ranged downward in his chest and did not exit' the surgeon said." on the same day the new york herald tribune stated, "on the basis of accumulated data, investigators have concluded that the first shot fired as the presidential car was approaching, struck the president in the neck, just above the knot of his necktie, then ranged downward into his body." according to richard dudman--mr. dudman is the washington correspondent, as i am sure you all know better than i, for the st. louis post-dispatch--according to him, the surgeons who attended the president while he was at the parkland memorial hospital, described the wound--were in agreement in describing the wound in the throat as an entrance wound. the st. louis post-dispatch on december carried a rather long and involved story by mr. dudman, recounting his conversations with the physicians who were treating the president on the d at the parkland memorial hospital. dr. perry explained that he began to open an air passage in the president's throat in an effort to restore his breathing, and he explained that the incision had been made through the bullet wound in the president's throat--since that was in the correct place for the operation, in any event. dr. perry, according to mr. dudman, described to him the bullet hole as an entrance wound. dr. robert n. mcclelland, who was one of the three physicians who participated in that operation, later stated to mr. dudman, "it certainly did look like an entrance wound." he went on to say that he saw bullet wounds every day in dallas, sometimes several times a day, and that this did appear to be an entrance wound. one doctor made reference to the frothing of blood in the neck wound. the doctor said, "he is bubbling air." two of the doctors, drs. peters and baxter, inserted a tube into the right upper part of the president's chest, just below the shoulder, to reexpand the lungs, and to keep them from collapsing. dr. jones and dr. perry inserted a similar tube on the left portion of the president's chest. the activity was necessitated because the bubbling air was the first clue that they had that the president's lung had been punctured. the prosecuting authorities, confronted with what seemed then to be evidence that the president had been shot from the front, in the throat---- the chairman. are you reading now, mr. lane? mr. lane. no, i am just making reference to this. that is not a quote. the chairman. it is not a quote. you are just paraphrasing what was in this article of mr. dudman's? mr. lane. no, i am leaving mr. dudman now, and going on to statements made by the prosecuting authorities. i will submit quotations--i will try to remember to place quotation marks when i have a quotation. the chairman. yes, all right. mr. lane. the authorities who were confronted with what seemed to be irrefutable evidence that the president had been shot in the front of the throat, concluded that the presidential limousine was approaching the book depository building when the first shot was fired, because it seems at the very outset a theory was developed by the prosecuting authorities that oswald was on the sixth floor of the book depository building, that he was the assassin, and that he acted alone. i think that the record and an examination of the activities of the dallas police, and the dallas district attorney's office, will show that the only area where they have been consistent from the outset was once this theory was enunciated, they stayed with the theory, and they were devoted to the theory, regardless of the discovery of new evidence and new facts. for example, the new york times stated on november , , "the known facts about the bullets, and the position of the assassin, suggested that he started shooting as the president's car was coming toward him, swung his rifle in an arc of almost °, and fired at least twice more." at that time, the prosecution case had already been developed in terms of the theory that oswald was the assassin and that oswald acted alone. there were newspaper pictures published in many portions of the country showing the textbook depository building on houston street where the presidential limousine approached the book depository building, and elm street, where after the limousine made a sharp left turn it continued until it reached the underpass directly ahead. and in these newspapers, there were superimposed dotted lines showing the trajectory of the three bullets, showing that the first bullet was fired while the presidential car was still on houston street, still approaching the book depository building. however, it soon became essential for the prosecution to abandon that theory, because the eyewitnesses present, including governor connally, and mrs. connally, stated that the limousine had already made a left turn, had passed the book depository building at the time that the first shot was fired. in essence, then, the prosecution remained with the theory that oswald, while acting alone, shot the president from the front from the back. however,---- mr. rankin. i don't understand that. mr. lane. i don't understand that either, but this was the theory of the prosecution--that the president had--it had been conceded at that time that the president had been shot in the front of the throat. however, the evidence then developed indicated that the presidential limousine had already passed the book depository building, and the president was not facing the book depository building when the first shot was fired. at that time, life magazine explains it all in a full page article entitled, "an end to nagging rumors, the crucial seconds." and life conceded that the limousine was some yards past oswald when the first shot was fired, and that the shot entered the president's throat from the front, but explained that the president had turned completely around and was facing the book depository building when the shot was fired. but that theory, however, could not---- mr. rankin. do you have the date of that article? mr. lane. that was december , life magazine. the full page article was entitled "end to nagging rumors, the six critical seconds." the problem---- senator cooper. may i ask a question there--just to clarify? did you say that in this article that life said that the late president had turned around and was facing the book depository building when the shot was fired? mr. lane. yes, senator. the trouble with that theory, however, which was enunciated by life, and from where they secured it i do not know, but they certainly were in dallas very much in evidence on the scene--was that the week prior to then life magazine itself printed the stills of the motion pictures, and in those stills, with life's own captions, it was quite plain that the president was looking almost completely forward, just slightly to the right, but almost forward, and certainly not turned around when the first shot was fired. and so the stills printed in life's own publication a week before they enunciated this theory proved that the life theory was false. in addition to this, persons present on the scene, such witnesses as mrs. connally and the governor of texas, indicated that the president was looking almost straight ahead. and i believe that mrs. connally stated that she had just made a statement to the president, tragically enough, something about, "you cannot say the people of dallas have not given you a warm welcome today," and he was about to respond when the first bullet struck him. in order for the prosecution to remain with the theory in the light of the new evidence that oswald was the assassin and he acted alone, something would have to give, and it became plain that the third try would have to result in a new examination of the medical testimony. mr. dudman stated that the doctors at parkland hospital, who had, of course, this vital evidence to offer, were never questioned about the vital evidence by the fbi or by the secret service, and that it was not until after an autopsy had been performed at bethesda, that two secret service agents, armed with that report, journeyed down to the parkland hospital and talked to the doctors, for the purpose of explaining to them that the new medical testimony and evidence indicated they were all in error at the outset. and, eventually, that was the position agreed to by the physicians, that they all had been in error when they stated that it was an entrance wound in the throat. physicians seem to agree that a short period of time after death, as a result of the deterioration of tissue, it is much more difficult to examine wounds to determine if they are entrance wounds or exit wounds. in addition to this, according to mr. dudman in the post dispatch there had been an operation performed on what the doctors thought then was an entrance wound; therefore, it would seem altering the wound in the throat so that it would probably be more difficult to determine if it were an entrance or an exit wound, after the operation had been completed. however, i do not know, of course, what is in the autopsy report--very likely you have seen that report--but portions of it, whether accurately or inaccurately, have been leaked to the public through the press. and the portion which has been leaked to the press, to the public through the press, in reference to the wound in the president's throat, indicated that the bullet struck the back of the president's head, and either a fragment of the bullet or a fragment of bone from the president's head exited at the throat. if this were so, while it could explain perhaps the wound in the throat, it would be difficult to understand why this was not apparent to the doctors in the parkland hospital, particularly in view of the fact that it would indicate that the path of the bullet ran from the top of the head down to the throat, not from the throat down to the back of the chest, a very different path entirely. and since dr. perry indicated that he inserted a tube into the president's throat following the bullet wound, it would be difficult to understand how he was not aware of the path of the bullet, when it was absolutely in the opposite direction from the one he thought it was in when he inserted the tube. most remarkable of all, though, is that if the bullet entered the top of the head, and a portion of it or a portion of bone exited from the throat, the collapse of the lungs and the frothing of air at the throat are both indications of a punctured lung--it would be difficult to explain by that particular bullet's path. i think that an openminded investigating and prosecuting agency would have found, at the outset, in view of the medical evidence available at the outset, that the president was shot from the front while facing slightly to the right, and after passing the book depository building--an openminded investigating body in dallas, the district attorney's office or the police, or others who were associated in that investigation, might have considered abandoning their theory that oswald was the assassin and that he acted alone, and might have been led by the factual data to investigate in other areas as well--clearly something that they did not do. i have been informed by reporters, for example, that--reporters from foreign countries covering the trial, that some of them were very concerned about the fact that they would now not be able to leave dallas, that clearly the airports would be closed, there would be roadblocks placed on many of the streets, the trains would be stopped or searched, in order that the assassin or those who assisted him, or those who assisted the assassins, might be prevented from readily leaving the entire area. i am informed by the reporters in the area that there were no such roadblocks, that planes continued to leave, trains continued to leave, and that the prosecution continued with its theory that oswald was the assassin, that he acted alone, and they had secured his arrest, and there was nothing more to be done other than to prove as conclusively as possible, utilizing the press as we know, and the television, and the radio media for that purpose. and while i am on this question, i wonder if i might ask the commission to give consideration to--although i don't believe that it is present in any of the six panels which have been established by the commission--but to give consideration nevertheless to the hours in which oswald was in custody, in reference to what happened to his rights as an american citizen, charged with a crime in this country. the statement by the national board of the american civil liberties union, that had oswald lived he could not have secured a fair trial anywhere in this country. the chairman. you may be sure, mr. lane, that that will be given most serious consideration by the commission, and the commission has already appointed as an act in that direction the president of the american bar association, with such help as he may wish to have, to make an investigation of that very thing. i assure you it will be done by the commission. mr. lane. getting back to the evidence, mr. chief justice, the spectator closest to president kennedy, a mrs. hill, who was a substitute teacher in the dallas public school system, stated to me that she was in her view the closest spectator to the president, and was standing alongside a mary moorman, who resides in dallas. mr. rankin. do you have the date of this interview, mr. lane? mr. lane. it was within the last week. she stated to me that she was the closest spectator to the president, she and her friend, when the president was struck by a bullet. she said that she heard some four to six shots fired. now, she was standing on the grass across the--across elm street, across from the texas book depository building. she said that in her--it is her feeling that all of the shots, the four to six shots, came from the grassy knoll near the triple overpass which was at that time directly in front and slightly to the right of the presidential limousine, and that in her view none of the shots were fired from the book depository building which was directly across the street from her, and which was to the rear of the presidential limousine. she said further that after the last shot was fired, she saw a man run from behind the general area of a concrete facade on that grassy knoll, and that he ran on to the triple overpass. she told me that standing alongside of her was mary moorman, who took a picture of the president just a brief moment before the first shot was fired, and that agents of the federal bureau of investigation took the film from miss moorman, and gave her a receipt, which she still has in her possession, but that she has not been able to see the picture, and that it is possible that the picture included the entire book depository building, taken just precisely a second or less before the shots were fired. tom wicker, who is a member of the new york times white house staff, who was the only new york times reporter in dallas when the president was shot, stated in an article which appeared in the saturday review, on january , , "as we came out of the overpass, i saw a motorcycle policeman drive over the curb, cross an open area, a few feet up a railroad bank, dismount, and start scrambling up the bank." ronnie dugger, who is the editor of the texas observer, a statewide publication in texas, stated in his publication on november , , and later stated to me in two different interviews material of the same nature. i am now quoting from the publication: "on the other side of the overpass a motorcycle policeman was roughriding across some grass to the trestle for the railroad tracks, across the overpass. he brought his cycle to a halt and leapt from it and was running up the base of the trestle when i lost sight of him." mr. rankin. can you give us the date of the paper that came from? mr. lane. yes. that was the texas observer, november , . that statement has been confirmed by mr. dugger to me in two interviews in dallas. james vachule, who is a reporter for the fort worth star telegram, said, "i heard the shots, several, at the triple overpass." and jerry flemmons, reporting also for the fort worth star telegram, on november , , stated, "kennedy was gunned down by an assassin, apparently standing on the overpass above the freeway." now, i spoke to a mary woodward, who is an employee of the dallas morning news, and she stated that she was present with three coworkers, all employees of the dallas morning news, and they were standing near the--the base of the grassy knoll, perhaps feet or so from the overpass, with the overpass to their right, and the book depository building to their left. and on november , , the dallas morning news ran a story by miss woodward, and i have since that time spoken with miss woodward by telephone, and she has confirmed portions--the entire portion which i will quote from now--in her conversation with me. that is, that as she and her three coworkers waited for the president to pass, on the grassy slope just east of the triple overpass, she explained that the president approached and acknowledged their cheers and the cheers of others, "he faced forward again, and suddenly there was an ear-shattering noise coming from behind us and a little to the right." here we have a statement, then, by an employee of the dallas morning news, evidently speaking--she indicated to me that she was speaking on behalf of all four employees, all of whom stated that the shots came from the direction of the overpass, which was to their right, and not at all from the book depository building, which was to their left. miss woodward continued, "instead of speeding up the car, the car came to a halt. things are a little bit hazy from this point, but i don't believe anyone was hit with the first bullet. the president and mrs. kennedy turned and looked around as if they, too, didn't believe the noise was really coming from a gun. then after a moment's pause there was another shot, and i saw the president slumping in the car." this would seem to be consistent with the statement by miss hill that more than three shots were fired. in addition to these statements, james a. chaney, who is a dallas motorcycle policeman, was quoted in the houston chronicle on november , , as stating that the first shot missed entirely. he said he was feet to the right and front of the president's car, moving about miles an hour, and when the first shot was fired. "i thought it was a backfire", he said. now, miss hill told me that when she was questioned--put that word unfortunately in quotation marks--by the u.s. secret service agents, that they indicated to her what her testimony should be, and that is that she only heard three shots. and she insisted that she heard from four to six shots. and she said that at least one agent of the secret service said to her, "there were three wounds and there were three shells, so we are only saying three shots." and they raised with her the possibility that instead of hearing more than three shots, that she might have heard firecrackers exploding, or that she might have heard echoes. despite this type of questioning by the secret service, miss hill continued to maintain, the last i spoke with her, about a week ago, that she heard from four to six shots. now, to the best of my knowledge, from my investigation, which has been very severely limited by lack of personnel and almost total lack of funds, and, therefore, is clearly not the kind of investigation which is required here--but from this limited investigation, it seems that only two persons immediately charged into the texas book depository building after the shots were fired. they were an officer of the dallas police force, seymour weitzman, who submitted an affidavit to the dallas police office, in which he stated that he discovered the rifle on the sixth floor of the book depository building. there was one other gentleman who ran into the building, and that was roy s. truly, who was and is, i believe, the director of the book depository building. however, mr. truly stated that he believed that the shots came from the direction of the overpass and from the grassy knoll. and although he was standing directly in front of the book depository building, he did not believe that the shots came from that building. standing with him at the time of the assassination was o. v. campbell, who was the vice president of the book depository building. in the dallas morning news on november , , it was stated that "campbell says he ran toward a grassy knoll to the west of the building where he thought the sniper had hidden." so we have two persons that we know of standing in front of the book depository building, and they both thought that the shots came from the grassy knoll near the overpass. the police officer, seymour weitzman, submitted an affidavit to the dallas district attorney's office, he and mr. truly, as i indicated a moment ago were the only two who charged into the book depository building when the shots were fired. weitzman indicated in his affidavit--i assume you have the original of that affidavit--that he ran "in a northwest direction, scaled the fence toward where we thought the shots came from." he indicated "then someone said they thought the shots came from the old texas building. i immediately ran to the texas building and started looking inside." so even the two people who ran into the building indicated that they did not believe the shots came from the building. mr. weitzman went into the building because someone whose name he did not give in his affidavit told him to go into the building, and then truly explained that although he thought the shots came from the general direction of the grassy knoll or the overpass in front of the president's limousine, he saw this officer run into the building, of which he is a director, and he felt that since he knew the building and the officer did not, he should go in the building to assist the officer. from published accounts, and from my investigation, i can only find one person who thought that the shots came from the building, and that was the chief of police in dallas, jesse curry, who said as soon as the shots were fired, he knew they came from the building. from the book depository building. now, of course, there were many persons present there whom i have not quoted, to whom i have no access. now, i spoke on several occasions with the reporter for the fort worth star telegram, whose name is thayer waldo. mr. waldo was standing with a police captain near the dallas trade mart building, which was the building, public building, where the president was going to have spoken that day. mr. waldo was awaiting his arrival, the president's arrival there, when a sergeant who was seated in a police cruiser called the captain over hurriedly to the police car. mr. waldo accompanied the captain to the police car. and mr. waldo stated to me that he heard the first bulletin which came over the dallas police radio, and it was "bulletin. the president has been shot. it is feared that others in his party have been wounded. the shots came from a triple overpass in front of the presidential automobile." so even the police, despite the chief of police's later assertion that he knew that the shots came from the book depository building, behind the presidential limousine, the first police radio broadcast indicated that it was the police position at that time that the shots came from the front, not from the rear. now, patrolman chaney, who i made reference to a little earlier, the motorcycle patrolman, stated that the presidential car stopped momentarily after the first shot. that statement was consistent with miss woodward's statement in the dallas morning news, that the automobile came to almost a complete halt after the first shot, and the statement of many other witnesses as well. mr. rankin. when was that statement made? mr. lane. that statement appeared in the newspaper i made reference to before, the houston chronicle, on november , . mr. rankin. when you made an independent inquiry at any time, would you tell us, mr. lane? mr. lane. yes, i certainly shall do that. now, i think one has to conjecture as to why the secret service agent who was undoubtedly trained for this assignment, and particularly the agent who was driving the presidential limousine in dallas, where we were told that the greatest efforts ever to protect an american president were going to be made that day, because of the previous difficulties in dallas, the attack upon our ambassador to the united nations and the attack upon the then senator johnson, when he spoke in dallas in --one would assume that the most qualified secret service driver that could be secured would be driving that automobile. it is difficult to understand why the automobile almost came to a complete stop after the first shot was fired, if the shots were coming from the rear. the natural inclination, it would seem, would be to step on the gas and accelerate as quickly as possible. however, if the driver were under the impression that the shots were from the front, one could understand his hesitation in not wanting to drive closer to the sniper or snipers. in addition, however, roy kellerman, who was in the front right-hand seat of the automobile, who i am told was in charge of the secret service operation that day, the director of the secret service not being present in dallas on that occasion--according to the pictures printed in life magazine, mr. kellerman looked forward until the first shot was fired. then he turned back, and looked at the president. he immediately looked forward again, and was looking in the direction of the overpass while the second shot was fired, and while the third shot was fired. one would certainly expect that mr. kellerman was and is a trained observer, who would not panic in such a circumstance, for which he has received his training. the pictures i make reference to are those in life magazine which i referred to a little earlier in the afternoon. senator cooper. may i ask a question there, mr. chief justice? the chairman. yes, go right ahead, senator. senator cooper. this last statement you made, about the secret service agent who turned, so that he was faced to the rear, toward the president, and then turned forward--i didn't quite understand what you deduced from that. mr. lane. i assumed that he was looking toward the sound of the shots. senator cooper. you mean when he turned to the rear, or turned ahead? mr. lane. well, when the president was shot, and was struck he then turned around, which i would imagine would be an ordinary response when somebody in an automobile with whom you are riding has been shot. but immediately after that, before the second shot was fired, he turned completely to the front, and was looking at the overpass during the remainder of the time that the shots were fired. it would seem to indicate to me that it is possible that mr. kellerman felt that the shots were coming from the general direction in which he was looking. mr. rankin. what do you base your statement on that the car stopped, the president's limousine? mr. lane. the statement made by various witnesses, including mr. chaney, a motorcycle policeman, miss woodward, who was one of the closest witnesses to the president at the time that he was shot, and others. i think that is the--i haven't documented that beyond that, because that seemed to be so generally conceded by almost everyone, that the automobile came to--almost came to a complete halt after the first shot--did not quite stop, but almost did. and, of course, you have the films, i assume, of the assassination and know more about that than i do, certainly. now, in reference to the rifle, there is on file--i assume that you have it or copies of it--in the dallas district attorney's office or the police office in dallas, an affidavit sworn to by officer weitzman, in which he indicates that he discovered the rifle on the sixth floor of the book depository building at, i believe, : p.m., on november , . now, in this affidavit, officer weitzman swore that the murder weapon--that the weapon which he found on the sixth floor was a . mauser, which he then went on to describe in some detail, with reference to the color of the strap, et cetera. now, the prosecuting attorney, of course, took exactly the same position, and for hours insisted that the rifle discovered on the sixth floor was a german mauser, adding the nationality. a german mauser is nothing at all like an italian carbine. i think almost any rifle expert will indicate that that is so. i have been informed that almost every mauser--and i am not able to document this, unfortunately, but i am sure that you have easy access to rifle experts--that almost every german mauser has stamped upon it the caliber, as does almost every italian carbine. mr. rankin. do you know the difference between the two? mr. lane. do i know the difference? mr. rankin. yes. mr. lane. i know the difference between an army m-l and an american carbine--those are the only two weapons i fired--during the war. no, i don't know anything about rifles, other than those two rifles, which i used at one time. i think it is most interesting to note that when oswald was arrested we were informed immediately that he had an alias--his last name was lee in that alias--as well as a great deal of material about his political background and activities on behalf of the fair play for cuba committee, and his defection to the soviet union, et cetera. but the alias was raised immediately. the following day, on the d, when it was announced by the federal bureau of investigation, that oswald had purchased an italian carbine, . millimeters, under the assumed name, a. hidell, then for the first time the district attorney of dallas indicated that the rifle in his possession, the alleged murder weapon, had changed both nationality and size, and had become from a german . mauser, an italian . carbine. and, further he indicated then for the first time that they knew of another alias maintained by lee oswald. in addition to the name lee, which they discovered, they said, by going to the home where he lived--the house where he had lived in dallas, where he rented a room, a rooming house, they discovered there he had secured the room under the name lee. mr. wade stated that on oswald's person, in his pocketbook, was an identification card made out to a. hidell, and i have seen pictures of this reproduced in either time magazine or newsweek, or one of the weekly news magazines--i believe it was one or the other--with a picture of oswald appearing on this card, plainly indicating that oswald had the alias a. hidell, to mr. wade. i think it is interesting that the name lee as an alias was released immediately, although some investigation was required to secure that alias. but the name a. hidell, was not released as an alias, although that was present and obvious by mere search of oswald's person when he was arrested. mr. rankin. can you give us the time of the release of the information about the alias, a. hidell? mr. lane. that was on november . mr. rankin. and how about lee? mr. lane. november . the first release of the name a. hidell came from the district attorney's office after the fbi had indicated that oswald had purchased an italian carbine under that name. if i were permitted to cross-examine mr. wade, which evidently you have decided that i shall not be permitted to do, and officer weitzman, i would seek to find out how about the most important single element in probably this case or any other murder case, physical evidence, the murder weapon, in a case which i am sure is mr. wade's most important case--how he could be so completely in error about this. mr. wade is a very distinguished prosecuting attorney, has been one for some or years, and i believe was an agent of the federal bureau of investigation prior to that time. i would like to know how he could have been so wrong about something so vital. now, assuming that the rifle found on the sixth floor was an italian rifle, italian carbine, one must wonder how it was possible for any number of things to happen for it to be fired there three times and strike the president in front of the throat, although he was past that building, and for the noise, according to the witnesses of the shooting, to have come from a different place entirely. but in addition to that, one must wonder if that rifle is capable of the performance which the prosecuting authorities allege that it gave on that day. an olympic rifle champion, hubert hammerer, said that he doubts that it could be done. mr. rankin. could you give us his address? mr. lane. he is not in the united states. the story appeared in the new york times. i don't have the exact date. representative ford. what nationality is he? mr. lane. i don't know. representative ford. do you know when he was olympic champion? mr. lane. no, i don't know that. i do know it probably was some time after the italian carbine was manufactured, since it is an extremely old weapon, manufactured back in , as i recall. there seems to be an agreement that the period of time was between and seconds from the first shot to the last shot. there is a serious question in the minds, i think, of persons who have fired that pistol--that rifle--first of all, as to its ability to be fired that quickly accurately with a telescopic sight, and secondly, in reference to the ammunition which is available. various persons have tested various lots of ammunition. someone from the national rifle association told me that he tested more than rounds, a little over rounds of the italian . ---- mr. rankin. when you refer to these people, will you tell us the names of any of them that you can? it might be of help to us. mr. lane. i should remember this gentleman, because i just spoke with him. that is another name i am going to have to supply for you. mr. rankin. thank you. mr. lane. he is a member of the board of directors of the national rifle association. he purchased for one of the television networks some rounds, a little over rounds, and told me that of them did not fire at all, and of them were guilty of hanged fire, which is a phrase i don't know anything about, but he tells me that means it did not fire fully, and, therefore, could not be accurate. therefore, a very small percentage of the ammunition was of any value. mr. ed wallace talked about making a similar test in the new york world telegram and sun, in a feature article, and i think he said that he went with an expert, and they got rounds of this ammunition, and of those did not fire--only fired. it was very old ammunition. representative ford. who is ed wallace, and who is the individual that ed wallace referred to? do you have that information? mr. lane. i believe mr. wallace indicated that he was present when the test was made. but it was an article appearing in the new york world telegram and sun within a week after the assassination--from the d to the th of november. and i can secure and mail to you a copy of that article, if you prefer. while there may be some question as to whether or not a rifle expert could secure such performance from a rifle, or whether or not one could secure enough good ammunition to get such performance, i think there is general agreement that only in the hands of a rifle expert could one attempt to come close to that kind of shooting that it is alleged oswald did on november . the times reported on november , "as marines go, lee harvey oswald was not highly regarded as a rifleman." and you have in your files, of course, the scorecard indicating oswald's marksmanship or lack of marksmanship while in the marine corps. in addition to that, you have the documents given to you by marguerite oswald, lee oswald's mother, which contained a scorecard maintained by oswald while in the marine corps, showing his score in fast and slow shooting at various different yardages, in reference to both an m-l, as i recall, and an american carbine. now, of course, it has been alleged on occasion that mr. oswald practiced with his rifle, on occasion, on weekends, at rifle ranges. mrs. paine, with whom lee oswald's wife lived for the month period preceding the assassination, and where lee oswald himself spent weekends for that months period preceding the assassination, told me that oswald could not have ever gone to a rifle range on a weekend, since she can account for his whereabouts during that entire month period just preceding the assassination. mr. rankin. can you give us the day of that conversation with mrs. paine? mr. lane. i have had about five conversations with her. the first one would be, oh, i believe, new year's day. i think that is the first time--this year--i believe that is the first time that she made the statement to me. she said she could account for oswald's whereabouts during that month period on weekends, from friday late afternoon, when he left work in dallas and arrived there in irving, until early monday morning. she said the exception is during that time--she didn't watch him every moment, of course--there might be exceptions when she went shopping for half an hour, and he was left home to take care of the children, her two children, his children. but that unless he ran out quickly into the back yard with the rifle and shot and then quickly put the rifle away while caring for three children, or four children, that it would be impossible for him to practice with the rifle on weekends. since it has been alleged that the rifle was in the garage during the entire period of time, of course--that was in irving, tex., and he was in dallas, tex.--it would have been impossible for him to practice during the week while he was in dallas, with that particular rifle. of course one must zero in a rifle in order to be even fairly accurate with it. one must practice with the specific weapon which one is going to use, in order to have any accuracy, in any event. now, i spoke with dial m. ryder, who is a gunsmith in irving, tex., at the irving sport shop, and he told me that he mounted a telescopic sight on a rifle for a man named oswald during october . now, unfortunately, he does not recall--that is around the deer season, he informed me, and a lot of people are getting rifles fixed or repaired or sights mounted on them during that time in the dallas-irving area. and he does not recall, therefore, what this gentleman named oswald looks like. but he does know that a rifle was brought to him by someone whose name now appears in this record as oswald, and that he drilled three holes in the rifle for a mount, telescopic mount. he said he had only seen three rifles which required three holes for telescopic mount--a british enfield, a american springfield army surplus rifle, or an eddystone, which is also an american rifle. he said, therefore, he did not attach a telescopic sight to the italian carbine, because he would have only drilled two holes. his employer, i think his name is greener, he told me, checked with all the oswalds they could find in the irving area after this matter came to their attention, and could not find anyone in that area--and they called some people in dallas also named oswald--could not find anyone named oswald who brought the rifle in to him. i talked to milton klein, who is the owner of klein's sporting goods store in chicago--klein's sporting goods is the name of the establishment, in chicago. mr. rankin. when was this? mr. lane. i spoke with him within the last or days. and he told me that--he runs the mail-order house which sent the carbine, italian carbine, to dallas, not to oswald, but to a. hidell, and that he sent that out with the holes already bored in the italian carbine, and equipped with a telescopic sight which was already attached to the rifle. aguto marcelli, who is a correspondent for an italian publication which appears physically very much to be like life magazine, called leuropeo, stated to me that he had spoken with mr. klein, and mr. klein told him that the fbi--"the fbi warned me to keep my trap shut." mr. rankin. when was this? mr. lane. he told me this about weeks ago. when i spoke with mr. klein, about days ago, or days ago, he indicated that he did not want to discuss any aspect of this matter with me. and i asked him if that was because he was told not to talk with anyone about this case, and he said yes. and i said, "who told you that?" he said, "the fbi agents told me, ordered me not to discuss this case." i pointed out to him that if he did not wish to discuss the case with me, i would not force him to. there was no way that he would be compelled to answer any of the questions that i asked him. but, however, in our democratic society, the fbi cannot order anyone not to discuss a case, and that such an order to him was not a valid order, if he wanted to discuss the case with me--he could. so he did. and he told me what i informed you--that the fbi told him not to discuss the case, and that he mailed this rifle with the holes already bored and with the telescopic sight already mounted to someone named a. hidell. he also said that "no ammunition was purchased from me by hidell at that time or since." senator cooper. mr. chairman, may i ask a question? the chairman. yes, sir. senator cooper. did he name any person with the fbi who told him not to discuss the case? mr. lane. no; he did not. senator cooper. can you identify--did he identify him in any way? mr. lane. he did not identify him. earlier, perhaps before you arrived, senator, i made reference to a statement made by mrs. hill, who was told by the secret service--i think perhaps you were here--that only three shots were fired. and i asked her specifically if she could identify that secret service agent, and she told me that she could not, there was such tremendous confusion at that time, there were so many agents of the fbi and secret service that she spoke to, that she did not think she could. but possibly if she saw him, she might be able to recognize him. i didn't go any further into that question, however, with mr. klein. he seemed very reluctant to discuss that entire area--to discuss anything, but particularly that area. i read in the dallas times herald, on november , , the statement made by mr. wade, when asked what they had tying oswald to the "crime of the century" and his response was, according to the dallas times herald, "if i had to single out any one thing, it would be the fingerprints on the rifle, and the book cartons which he used to prop the weapon on." on the same day the world telegram and sun reported "federal authorities have concluded that no readable print was found on the murder weapon when it was flown to washington for laboratory studies." there were certain leaks that a fingerprint or a palm print was discovered on the bolt of the rifle. if that is so, it would be remarkable if it were a print belonging to anyone other than captain fritz of the homicide squad in dallas, because according to the affidavit signed by officer weitzman, who discovered the weapon, and i am quoting now from the affidavit on file--at that time on file with the district attorney's office, "the time the rifle was found was : p.m. captain fritz took charge of the rifle, and ejected one live round from the chamber. i then went back to the office after this." now, you know if you have worked with that rifle that the--on most italian carbines that bolt is not worked too easily. one really has to grab a hold of it and pull back. it would be unusual if a fingerprint belonging to someone other than the person who did that survived. the first statement made by mr. wade in reference to the taxi driver who he alleged--he, wade, alleged took oswald generally from this scene, indicated that the driver's name was daryl click. now, that statement was not made in the first hours of the arrest. that statement was not made until after chief curry had announced to the press in dallas, on that day, november th that the case was closed, there would be no further investigation--oswald was the assassin, he had acted alone, he was then dead. and as a result of the change in policy, to reopen the case and have mr. wade assume a position in front of the radio and television microphones and cameras of the nation, on that evening november , mr. wade then presented what he said was the evidence "for you piece by piece." and part of the evidence which he had secured was the proof that a taxi driver named daryl click drove oswald roughly from the scene to his home, to oswald's home. when i was in dallas--i suppose this was on january d, my first trip there in reference to this matter--i spoke with a mr. roseboro of the teamsters union--they have organized the taxi drivers in dallas--and asked him if he knew--if he could give me any information about a daryl click. he said he did not have the name in his files, but texas being a right-to-work law state, it is possible, he said, that mr. click was a driver but not a member of that union. he referred me to the personnel department of the city transportation co., which he told me was the one company monopoly running all the taxis in dallas. i spoke with the city transportation co. personnel office, mr. pott, as i recalled, who checked the records, and indicated to me that there was no daryl click who drove a taxi in dallas. some time after mr. wade stated that daryl click was the taxi driver, he then stated that a person by the name of william whaley was the taxi driver who took oswald from the scene after he left the bus to his home. it is therefore alleged by the prosecution that oswald, after firing upon the presidential limousine, walked the entire floor from the front of the book depository building to the rear of the warehouse, almost to the extreme rear, where he hid the rifle, where it was found, and then took the stairs at the rear of the book depository building and walked down four flights, until he arrived at the second floor, and then he walked to the coca-cola machine, which was at the front of the building, meaning he crossed the entire warehouse floor again, and he purchased a coca-cola, and was sipping it when a police officer arrived with a gun drawn, questioned him briefly. mr. truly explained to the officer that oswald worked there. and eventually oswald left the building, boarded a bus, then walked, after leaving the bus--walked two blocks and entered mr. whaley's taxi, at exactly : , according to mr. whaley. the shots that killed the president were fired at : . now, there is on file in the district attorney's office--i assume you have the original or copies of it--a report of a paraffin test taken of oswald, of both his hands and his face. the test proved, according to mr. curry, and the statement that he made on saturday, november , to the press that oswald had fired the murder weapon. however, a reading of the test indicates that one could come to a very different conclusion. the test in reference to the face proved negative, indicating that oswald had not fired a rifle on november , --although the test on the hands showed positive--indicating, according to the person who did the analysis, the kinds of patterns consistent with one having fired a revolver. that was the statement on the test taken and conducted by a louis l. anderson, on november , , by the dallas city county crime investigation laboratory. now, it has, of course, been alleged that after oswald shot the president and took a bus and a taxi, and went home and got a jacket, he then shot and killed officer tippit. the affidavit in the district attorney's office indicates that a person saw a stopped police car, walked up to the police car, leaned on it with his arms on the window, or what would be a windowsill or window ledge of the automobile, and then stepped back a step or two, the officer came out, and this person shot officer tippit to death. the affidavit is peculiarly sparse in reference to the description of the assailant, the man who killed tippit, by an eyewitness who said she was just feet away. her description of this person is found in two different portions of the affidavit--he was young, white, male, and that is the entire description present in the affidavit at that time. i spoke with the deponent, the eyewitness, helen louise markham, and mrs. markham told me--miss or mrs., i didn't ask her if she was married--told me that she was a hundred feet away from the police car, not the feet which appears in the affidavit. she gave to me a more detailed description of the man who she said shot officer tippit. she said he was short, a little on the heavy side, and his hair was somewhat bushy. i think it is fair to state that an accurate description of oswald would be average height, quite slender, with thin and receding hair. helen markham said to me that she was taken to the police station on that same day, that she was very upset, she of course had never seen anyone killed in front of her eyes before, and that in the police station she identified oswald as the person who had shot officer tippit in the lineup, including three other persons. she said no one pointed oswald out to her--she was just shown four people, and she picked oswald. she said--when i asked her how she could identify him--she indicated she was able to identify him because of his clothing, a gray jacket and dark trousers. and this was the basis for her identification--although oswald physically does not meet the description which she indicated. representative ford. when did you have this conversation with the deponent? mr. lane. within the last days. representative ford. some time in late february ? mr. lane. or perhaps even early march, yes, sir. now, i inquired--i told her that i was coming here today, and that i was completing my investigation as oswald's lawyer, and asked her if she would discuss the matter with me, and she said she would. i asked her if anyone had asked her not to discuss this matter with me. at first she seemed reluctant, and she said she was reluctant because i called her at her place of employment, the eat well cafe in dallas. i tried her at home many times before then, but her phone was always busy. i believe it is a phone which is not her personal one, but is a common phone shared by others in the building where she resides. i apologized for calling her at her place of employment. and she seemed reluctant to talk to me. i asked if anyone had asked her not to talk about this case with anyone. she said yes, she had been told by the fbi, by secret service agents, and by dallas police, all three groups, not to discuss anything in relation to this case, and that by and large she had not. i told her that somewhere it occurred to me that i had seen an article in a newspaper in which she described the assailant of oswald as short, stocky, and with bushy hair--i'm sorry, the assailant of tippit--as being short, stocky, with bushy hair. and she said she did talk to a reporter, she thinks, for one of the dallas newspapers, the dallas times-herald or the dallas morning news--but that is the only time she talked to anybody. i would like to call to the commission's attention the entire brief narrative of the entire case, as presented by the district attorney's office at this point, or at least on the th, because it seems to me to be so full of incredible happenings, that it would be very difficult to submit such a story to a jury by a prosecution generally. if everything that the prosecution in this case says is true, one must conclude that oswald behaved in a very, very unusual manner from the beginning to the end. he decided on thursday, november , that he was going to assassinate the president, and so he decided to go back to irving, tex., to secure a rifle there, in order to carry out that purpose. he had on his person some $ when arrested, and almost $ in cash in the top drawer of his dresser--so we can assume that on thursday, the st, he had roughly that amount of money present. one can purchase a rifle for less than $ in many stores in dallas. there is no question about that. by using a small portion of that $ , he could have purchased a rifle absolutely superior to the italian carbine at home in irving in many respects. and there are gun magazines which have had editorials dwelling on this question, saying that if oswald did it with this weapon, and they do not move into the question of whether or not he did, it was an absolute miracle, because no one who knew anything about rifles would have chosen such a decrepit, worthless rifle, as this italian carbine, manufactured in , for which there is such pure ammunition. there are a series, i believe, of editorials in gun magazines proving that oswald, i think, as a matter of pride, from a sportsman's viewpoint--that oswald was in no way associated with weapons and did not belong in that category, because he could not have chosen such a weapon. representative ford. could you give us the citations of one of these magazines? mr. lane. yes. one is called gun magazine. i do not recall the names. but that is one of them. i am sure there was such an editorial in that one. i will get the other one and mail those to you also. but i think there would have to be a more compelling reason for oswald not to go home and get that particular inferior rifle if he decided on thursday to kill the president. that was the only rifle in the whole world probably that could be traced to him. one can purchase a rifle in almost any community in this country, certainly in dallas, without any notoriety attaching to it, without giving one's name or address, or having a serial number attached to a receipt kept by a store indicating who owns that particular rifle. but here we have oswald going home to get an inferior rifle, which rifle is the only rifle in the whole world which can be traced to him, which rifle he is going to leave behind as a calling card after the assassination is complete. and so he goes home to irving, tex., and he gets this rifle, and he wraps it up in paper, we are told, and brings it in to the book depository building. now, the rifle can be broken down, i believe, from examining other italian carbines. but it would be not much shorter if it was broken down--perhaps or inches shorter. evidently, though, he did not do that. so he took this rifle into the book depository building, which i suggest, gentlemen, is a most remarkable thing. this was going to be the greatest series of precautions in the history of the united states to protect an american president. as we know now, and suspected then, with very good reason, because of the nature of what had gone before, with reference to public officials in dallas--and here we have a man who has defected to the soviet union, who has married a russian national, active on behalf of the fair play for cuba committee, we see a discharge less than honorable from the u.s. marine corps, who was working in the building exactly on the presidential route. not only is it on the presidential route, but it is the building where the automobile is going to have to clearly slow down because of the sharp turn, sharp left turn, made right in front of the building. and despite all of these precautions--and i have been informed that there were serious precautions taken in dallas on that day by the dallas police and by others, and that persons who did no more publicly, who did no more ever politically than to publicly speak in favor of school integration, were followed that day as potential assassins in dallas. nevertheless, oswald, with that background, is permitted to walk into the book depository building, directly on the presidential route, carrying with him in his hand a full rifle. mr. rankin. can you tell us the information on which you base this, about anyone who merely spoke about school integration? mr. lane. yes. a reporter for the dallas morning news told me that, told me he was absolutely certain that was so. but before revealing his name, i am going to have to call him and indicate i am going to do that. i will be happy to do that. i am glad you are interested in that matter, because i think it is a most important one. i suggest that the federal bureau of investigation knew that oswald worked at the texas book depository building, which was on the presidential route. an fbi agent by the name of hosty visited the home of the paines in irving, tex., sometime during september and october. he visited that home on more than one occasion. each of the at least two times that he was there, possibly three but i am not certain--but i was told he was there two times--i know i was told by mrs. paine in the presence of her husband, michael paine, that agent hosty was there at least on two occasions--each time he was there he asked where oswald was. mrs. paine explained to agent hosty, she told me, that oswald lived there only on weekends, and that during the week agent hosty could find him at his room in dallas, where he stayed during the week, or during the daytime could find him at the texas book depository building, where he was an employee. nevertheless--and that oswald would not be found in irving, tex. at the paine's home during the week. nevertheless, agent hosty returned again at least one more time to the paine home in irving, during the week, during the day, i believe--certainly during the week--and again asked about oswald, and again mrs. paine told him that he worked at the book depository building, he would not be there, she said, "as we told you last time he won't be here during the week. during the daytime during the week you can find him at his job at the book depository building, and during the nighttime during the week you can find him at his rooming house in dallas." mr. rankin. did she tell you whether she told him where the rooming house was? mr. lane. i do not believe i asked her that question, and i don't believe she mentioned that. well, to go back to the prosecution narrative, or narrative according to the facts presented by the prosecution, oswald was on the sixth floor, fired at the presidential limousine, not as the automobile approached the building, when the automobile came extremely close to the building, so close that possibly even with that weapon one could have shot occupants of the automobile from that window--but it is alleged that oswald never shot--it is now alleged that oswald never shot when the automobile was right outside of the building, but fired when the automobile was some yards beyond the building, when the first shot was fired. then oswald walked the entire floor--or ran--the entire floor of the warehouse to the rear of the building, placing the rifle in between some boxes, but visible, so that one can see it when one arrives on the floor; went to the rear stairs, walked down the four flights to the second floor, then to the front of the building again, where he purchased a coca-cola--made no effort to leave the building at that time, evidently was going to wait until the building was surrounded by police before leaving. he stayed at the top of the stairs near the coke machine long enough so that a police officer could come up and place a pistol near him, and roy truly, the director, then intervened indicating that mr. oswald was employed at the building at that time, and the officer then went on to do other things in the building, including later on, i believe, to find the rifle, if it was the same officer. mr. truly stated that oswald was quite calm when the officer approached him on the stairs. he said although he did seem a little concerned about that pistol being stuck at him--but otherwise he seemed quite calm at that time. well---- representative ford. where was this statement made, or testimony given? mr. lane. by truly? representative ford. yes. mr. lane. this was reported very widely in probably dozens or scores of newspapers. the new york times carried that, as did many other publications--direct quotations from truly who was interviewed. then the next thing we heard from the prosecution in their opening or closing statement to the television cameras, after oswald was killed was that--the next we hear of oswald he was on a bus. well, if oswald boarded the bus where the busdriver claims he did, then oswald walked a distance, in order to secure a bus which is going to take him directly back to the book depository building, which one would think he was trying to flee after assassinating the president. i would refer you to his story by hugh ainsworth in the dallas morning news published during the first week after the assassination. hugh ainsworth and larry grove published on november in the dallas morning news--this is headed "oswald planned to ride by scene"--in which there are statements from the busdriver that--named c. j. mcwatters, in which mr. mcwatters indicates that oswald entered the bus at elm and griffin, and further indicates that the bus was going to go seven blocks further west and turn at houston street, exactly the scene of the assassination, or at least the scene of the texas book depository. so oswald traveled somehow some seven blocks in order to secure a bus which is going to take him back to the place that he left. now, although i have talked to mr. ainsworth, and he tells me that the story is absolutely correct, and he questioned mr. mcwatters quite thoroughly, and he will so testify, i believe, if he is asked--mr. ainsworth will--and the affidavit which mr. mcwatters signed, or which the busdriver signed, he does not state that oswald walked seven blocks and was going to get on a bus which was going to take him back. indeed, he states that he picked him up about elm and houston street, at the book depository building. but the busdriver indicates that that story in his affidavit is not true. he indicated that after the affidavit was drawn and signed by him. mr. rankin. what did you say was not true, mr. lane--which part of it? mr. lane. the affidavit. mr. mcwatters indicates that the affidavit in which--let me start that again. there is an affidavit from the busdriver, which i am sure you have, which shows that according to his statement oswald came into the bus at elm and houston street. however, the busdriver since that time has indicated that oswald came into the bus seven blocks from elm and houston street, and had entered a bus which was going to take him to elm and houston street. elm and houston street of course is the location of the book depository building. mr. rankin. now, when you say since that time he has indicated that, you mean to you or to someone else? mr. lane. to those two reporters for the dallas morning news with whom i discussed--one of them--i discussed this specifically. and he said that every word in that story is absolutely accurate, that he went to see the busdriver, and had a prolonged interview with him, and went over this in great detail with him. i think these two reporters will testify as to what the busdriver told them in their interview with him. mr. rankin. but they have not published this later story that you are telling about. mr. lane. yes, they have. that is the date that i gave you. the dallas morning news, on thursday, november , under the headline "oswald planned to ride by scene". mr. rankin. do you want to leave that with us? mr. lane. i wonder if copies can be made of everything. mr. rankin. yes. mr. lane. then i will be happy to leave it. mr. rankin. the story you were just referring to in the dallas morning news is commission exhibit . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification and received in evidence.) mr. lane. that's correct. well, now, oswald allegedly had shot the president and has walked some, talked to an officer, was calm, walked some seven blocks to find a bus which was going to take him back to where he left, and then got off and got--entered into a taxi after he had walked some two blocks from where he left the bus. and this taxi he entered of course a minute before the president was shot, if the taxi driver's log is accurate--after oswald had done all these things, after allegedly shooting the president and the governor. then the taxi driver drove him directly past his own home, according to the statement and--past oswald's dallas rooming house, until he arrived at a scene about a half a mile beyond oswald's house, where oswald then left the taxi, and then walked or ran home to secure a jacket--leaving behind, although one would assume he is now giving considering to escaping, the $ in the dresser drawer, and taking just his jacket with him. mr. rankin. which dresser drawer? mr. lane. this is in dallas. mr. rankin. not at the paine's? mr. lane. not at the paine's. i do not know if there was money at the paine's, but if he had money there, he left that behind the night before, knowing he was going to---- mr. rankin. but the $ you are speaking of was in his rooming house at dallas. mr. lane. yes. mr. rankin. do you have any affidavit or information in support of that statement about the $ ? mr. lane. i do not have an affidavit. i have the statement of a reporter who was told that--he was told this by a police officer who was present when the money was found in the dallas rooming house. i have his statement. i can again ask for his permission to release that. mr. rankin. would you do that, please. mr. lane. yes, sir. senator cooper. mr. chairman--perhaps it has been done, but i think it would be proper in all cases in which he has referred to conversations that he has had with individuals who made statements to him about some aspect of this matter, and whose names he has not identified, that if he could give to the commission in all of those cases the names of the individuals who gave him this information. mr. lane. yes, sir. senator cooper. i mean at sometime--don't you think? mr. rankin. yes, sir, it would be very helpful. mr. lane. yes, sir. i think there are only two occasions where i indicated i had to check the source, and one is the name of the rifle association board member whose name i will be happy to give to you, but i just do not recall it--my office has that. senator cooper. i did not remember that you gave the name of this individual who told you that some policeman had told him that he had been present when the $ was found. mr. lane. yes; that is one. senator cooper. did you give that name? mr. lane. no; i did not give that name. mr. rankin. you said you were going to ask him his permission. mr. lane. yes; that's correct. then oswald took a taxi, which took him approximately a half mile beyond his own house, his own room in dallas, and he either walked or ran back to get his jacket--although it was a very warm day in dallas. that day mrs. kennedy said later on that, reviewing the moment before the president was shot--she said she saw this overpass ahead and looked forward to being under it for a moment because there would be some brief shade to protect them from the powerful sun that day. well, oswald ran home to get his jacket. he left the house, saw a police car parked, went up to the police car, according to the affidavit of mrs. markham, leaned on the car, and when the officer came out, he shot him to death, and then he went to the movies. and in the movies, and just before he went into the texas theatre, he was so extremely agitated that a gentleman on the outside of the theatre--i think his name is john brewer--i am not certain--you have that affidavit, i am sure--indicated that oswald was acting very agitated, the cashier made the same statement, and changing from seat to seat. the police were called and he was arrested. of course, one would wonder why oswald, who might have thought that he had made his getaway while in the texas theatre unobserved, would become so extremely agitated, when just a moment after he allegedly shot the president and the governor, with the policeman charging up the stairs, pointing a pistol at him, about to arrest him for these two terrible crimes, he was calm, according to mr. truly, but he became agitated only when he thought he had secured his getaway. i think those of us who saw, as we all did, i guess, oswald on television in his brief appearance would conclude that he seemed, even while in custody and charged with these two crimes, somewhat calm under the circumstances--calm when charged with the assassination, calm a moment after killing the president, when a policeman pointed a pistol at him, but agitated only in the theatre, and just before going to the theatre when he might have concluded that he was then in the clear. i would just like to conclude on this note. i hope the commission will give consideration to my request, which the commission has answered, but which again i would like at this time to renew. that is, that i be permitted, at the request of mrs. oswald, the mother of the accused defendant, really, before this commission's hearing, to represent his interests here, to have access to the material which you have access to, and the right to present witnesses. it is not usual for an attorney representing a party to be given an opportunity to testify, which is quite unusual--but rather to be given the opportunity to present witnesses and to cross-examine them. it has generally been my role in criminal cases. never before have i testified in behalf of a client. if it is the commission's position that this is not a trial in any respect, and therefore oswald is not entitled to counsel, that is the position with which i would like to respectfully offer a dissent. the fact that oswald is not going to have a real trial flows only from his death, and he is not responsible with that having taken place. every right belonging to an american citizen charged with a crime was taken from him up to and including his life. i think now that that episode is completed, hopefully never to reappear ever again in our history, or anything close to it--i think it would be proper to permit him to have counsel before the commission, counsel who can function on his behalf in terms of cross-examining evidence and presenting witnesses. if it is the commission's position now that he is entitled to counsel, and the commission will appoint counsel, then i ask the commission to consider that the constitutional right to counsel involves the right to counsel of one's choice, or in the event of the death of a party, to counsel of the choice of the surviving members of the family. if marina oswald, the widow, sought to have counsel represent her husband i would think--here--i would think that would cause a conflict and a problem, if the widow and also the mother made the same request. but as i understand it no request has been made by the widow, who has indicated to the press that she believes her husband is guilty, and through her former business agent, mr. martin, who i am told was secured for her by the secret service as a business agent, she indicated that even a trial which might prove he was innocent, she would still be sure he was guilty, and has indicated since that time no desire to my knowledge to secure counsel for her husband, her late husband, before the commission. i think, then, the mother would, in almost any jurisdiction, be the next person to make a decision in this area, and the mother has made a decision, as you know. she has retained me to represent the rights and interests of her son. i think under those circumstances it would be proper for the commission to permit me to participate. this, of course, is not a jury trial. with all due respect to the integrity and background of each of the members of the commission, i suggest that it is not the function of the trying body to appoint counsel, or the jury to appoint counsel, but in our society it is just the reverse; it is the function of defense counsel to participate in determining who the jury should be. many criminal lawyers, very noted counsel, would probably seek to excuse certain--and again no disrespect at all is meant to the background of members of this commission--but defense counsel generally seeks to excuse as jurors those who are in any way associated with the government in a criminal case. and here we have the government appointing the jury, and then the jury picking counsel, who also is government connected at this time. i in no way wish to raise the question of the integrity of any of the members of the commission or counsel or anyone else, or their ability. but that truism about equality has some meaning in terms of impartiality--everyone is impartial to some people, and more impartial to other people. and counsel, in order to function, i believe, must be totally independent and totally committed to the responsibility of representing his client. but above all, he must be secured by someone who has the ability to speak for the deceased, in this case his mother and his wife. and under those circumstances, i renew my request that i be permitted to, at the request of lee oswald's mother, who survives him--to function before this commission as counsel on his behalf. the chairman. mr. lane, i must advise you that the commission, as you already know, has considered your request and has denied it. it does not consider you as the attorney for lee oswald. now, this is not for any discussion. we are not going to argue it. you have had your say, and i will just answer. lee oswald left a widow. she is his legal representative. she is represented by counsel. this commission is cooperating with her in any way she may request. if anyone else wants to present any evidence to this commission, they may do so. but it is the view and the wish--the will of the commission--that no one else shall be entitled to participate in the work and the deliberations of the commission. we asked you to come here today because we understood that you did have evidence. we are happy to receive it. we want every bit of evidence that you have. you may present anything that you wish to us. but you are not to be a participant in the work of the commission. i assume you have some questions you would like to ask mr. lane, mr. rankin? mr. rankin. yes, sir. do you have any affidavits that you would like to submit to the commission? i understood at one time you had some affidavits. mr. lane. well, i do have some affidavits. they are not originals--they are photostatic copies of affidavits taken by the dallas police and on file in the dallas district attorney's office. now--including the paraffin test which i made reference to. now, if the commission does not have copies of those, i would like to be so informed and i will see what i can do. i assume the commission has copies of all those documents. mr. rankin. yes. do you have anything beyond that that you care to submit? mr. lane. i have the various statements which i have made reference to from mrs. hill and mrs. markham, mr. klein, mr. ryder. but i have given you the essence of those statements. if you are interested in pursuing that, i think it might be best to call them. mr. rankin. i am interested if there was anything beyond what you have given us, mr. lane. and if you say you have given us the substance, then i take it that is complete as far as it could be of assistance to us, except our going directly to the witness. is that what you have in mind? mr. lane. yes. mr. rankin. now, do you have any witnesses that you would like to present for the commission? mr. lane. well, i would like--i do not know that i would be able to do that, frankly. mr. rankin. well, would you have any that you suggest that we should interview, bring before the commission, that you have not presented up to this time in your testimony? mr. lane. no; there is no one who i know of other than those names i have given, and two other persons whose permission i am going to have to secure in reference to other matters, and hopefully they will be willing to not only allow their names to be used, but to come forward and testify, if you wish to hear them. mr. rankin. now, is there any documentary evidence beyond which you have submitted that you would like to submit to the commission? mr. lane. not beyond what i have submitted or made reference to. mr. rankin. in regard to the paraffin that you have referred to, do you have any particular materials or anything you want to refer the commission to? mr. lane. to that particular test taken by mr. anderson on november d? mr. rankin. anything beyond that? mr. lane. no; not at this time. mr. rankin. now, i understand at one time you referred to some meeting in the carousel club a week or so before the assassination. do you have any material on that or any information? mr. lane. yes. mr. rankin. is there anything you would care to present to the commission? mr. lane. yes. i have been informed--and this is the source i will have to check with again in order to secure his testimony---- mr. rankin. you will advise us if you are permitted to. mr. lane. yes. but i can tell you the substance--that a meeting took place on november , , in the carousel club between officer tippit and bernard weissman, mr. weissman being the gentleman who placed a full-page advertisement in the dallas morning news which was printed on november , asking a series of questions of president kennedy. it was addressed "welcome to dallas, president kennedy. why have you traded the monroe doctrine for spirit of moscow. why has gus hall and the communist party endorsed your election" and such matter. i think these two give a rather clear indication of the kind of advertisement that it was. and i have been informed that mr. weissman and officer tippit and a third person were present there. i have been given the name of the third person. but for matters which i will make plain to the commission, i will be pleased to give you the name of the third person as given to me, but not in the presence of the press. i would rather do that in executive session--that one piece of testimony. the chairman. that is satisfactory to do that, if you wish. mr. lane. thank you, sir. mr. rankin. is there anything else about that incident that you know and want to tell the commission at this time? mr. lane. no. the chairman. that is the entire story, is it? mr. lane. that they were there for more than hours conferring--these three persons. the chairman. your information does not--is not to the effect as to what they were conferring on. mr. lane. no; they did not hear that. mr. rankin. i am not suggesting, mr. lane, that you have been selective about what you have told the commission and what you have not told, but i do wish to make the inquiry as to whether there is any information you might have that the commission should be informed of as to other people that you might have interviewed in regard to this matter. mr. lane. i have given the commission at this time everything that i know. mr. rankin. is there anything about the palm prints that you can tell us in addition to what you have given us? mr. lane. not in addition to what i have said. mr. rankin. well, i will ask you generally--is there anything in addition to what you have said that you would like to tell the commission at this time that has any bearing upon this investigation? mr. lane. all i can say in reference to that, mr. rankin, is that i am practically engaged in this project by myself, which means i am extremely limited. this is not my profession--investigator. i am an attorney. and there are many leads which i have followed, which have led me nowhere at all, obviously. before finding mrs. markham or before finding mrs. hill, there were many other persons i talked to who were not even present, who i have heard were present. but there are still large numbers, probably at this point hundreds of leads which i have heard of, and which i have not yet been able to trace or to check through. i do not think it would be constructive just to tell you all of the things i have heard, because most of them are patently untrue, and they just require a great deal of work. but i will continue to do that, and should i come across any material which might in any way interest you, i will certainly either write to you for the purpose of presenting it to you through the mail in affidavit form, if you prefer, or indicate that i will be available to come and testify again if you prefer that. the chairman. mr. lane, your client, mrs. marguerite oswald, when she was testifying before us, told us that she had sold some pictures to the press and she wanted the originals of all the pictures that she presented to us, because she said they were of great financial value to her. do you know what sales she has made concerning pictures such as you have shown us? mr. lane. in terms of the picture with the rifle, you mean, for example? the chairman. well, we might start with that. mr. lane. she has never seen such a picture, she has informed me, of lee harvey oswald with the rifle--except after they had been published. she never had any knowledge of such pictures, and had never seen them. i do not really represent marguerite oswald. she has retained me to represent the interests of her son. and so in her business dealings in terms of her sale of pictures and articles, i have not represented her. i believe she has a literary agent or perhaps even another lawyer--i don't know. but she has retained me to represent her son's interests, not to represent her at all. the chairman. i see. mr. lane. of course, we have conferred. but i do not have that information. the chairman. yes. mr. rankin. mr lane, i have a further question. have you ever been prevented by any law enforcement officer from interviewing anyone concerning this matter when you wished to? mr. lane. well, i would say that i have been prevented by the statements made by the law enforcement persons or agents to the individual, that he should not talk to anyone about this case, that it is a secret matter. as i have indicated, mr. klein---- mr. rankin. you have described those cases, have you? mr. lane. i have also spoken to a reporter who is employed by a dallas newspaper, who informed me that he sought to question more than in the area, and that many of those persons informed him that they were ordered by the fbi not to talk to anyone about this case, and that almost none of the witnesses would talk with him about the case, and that some of them, when he asked the reason that they were not talking to him, it was "was this because you have been told by the fbi?"--and he indicated they were not even allowed to answer that question. but many of them told him that the fbi or the secret service ordered them not to talk. in no other respect have i been interfered with to my knowledge. mr. rankin. do you have the name of that reporter--can you reveal that to us? mr. lane. i cannot reveal it at this time, but i am hopeful you will permit me to. he is one of the reporters i referred to earlier. mr. rankin. thank you. the chairman. senator, do you have any questions? senator cooper. no; i have no questions. the chairman. mr. rhyne. mr. rhyne. mr. chief justice--i wanted to ask mr. lane, on his inquiry about what happened to oswald during the hours he was under detention--you suggested that the commission make an inquiry into whether his civil rights were denied. do you have any information on that subject? mr. lane. yes. i saw what happened--i read in the newspapers and heard on the radio. mr. rhyne. it looked to me that most of the material presented here today was really in the newspapers. you are merely repeating what someone else has said. mr. lane. i don't think that is an accurate characterization of my testimony at all, sir. for example, i told you before of conversations that i have had--i know you listened intently--i told you of conversations that i had with mr. klein. i told you of conversations i had with miss hill, who is probably the closest eyewitness to the assassination, with miss woodward, who is perhaps the second or third closest witness to the assassination, with dial ryder, with at least two or three other persons. mr. rhyne. but on this one point, with respect to denial of any civil rights or protection of civil rights during this -hour period, you say that is all in the newspaper stories? mr. lane. no. what i meant by that response was that the basic denial that i was discussing was the development of the case publicly against him, so that it would be impossible in securing a jury panel to secure jurors probably anywhere in this country who had not reached a conclusion, first of all. and secondly, obviously the death of the accused, which i know is a matter for the commission's inquiry already. mr. rhyne. i notice that you said your investigation was incomplete. so i just wanted to be sure that i understood what you meant with respect to this -hour detention period. mr. lane. no; i have no knowledge over and above that that i could give you in that area. the chairman. mr. murray, do you have any questions you would like to ask? mr. murray. no; i have none, mr. chief justice, at this time. the chairman. well, mr. lane, if any evidence should come to your attention in the future, would you be willing to convey the information to the commission? mr. lane. yes; i certainly would, sir. the chairman. we will appreciate it if you would. thank you for your attendance. we will adjourn at this time. (whereupon, at : p.m., the president's commission adjourned, and reconvened in executive session.) testimony of mr. lane resumed in executive session the chairman. the session will be in order. mr. rankin. will you proceed, mr. lane, in executive session now, to describe the names? mr. lane. the third name that i was informed--the person that i was informed was there, the third person, is named jack ruby. it was my feeling, of course, while his case was pending it would not be proper to comment on that in the presence of the press. mr. rankin. you mean the third person in the group apparently conferring? mr. lane. yes. tippit, weissman, and ruby. the chairman. have you made any public statement of this kind before on this subject--about this meeting? mr. lane. not about ruby--about a meeting between weissman and tippit, yes. the chairman. but you never named ruby publicly? mr. lane. no; i have not. i shall not. the chairman. i see. do you know any way by which we might corroborate that meeting--the fact that it was held? mr. lane. i am going this evening to see, or tomorrow--i will try this evening first--to see if i can secure permission by my informant to reveal his name, and i hope he will be willing to come forward and testify as to what took place. the chairman. the commission would like to know it, if you can do that. mr. lane. yes; i shall inform you as soon as i discover that. i would like very much for the commission to have that information. can i indicate to my informant that the matter can be so raised so that his name will not be known to anyone other than the commission? the chairman. yes, sir; you may. mr. lane. that will be extremely helpful. the chairman. if you can think of any way that can be corroborated, it would be most helpful to us. mr. lane. i understand. the chairman. congressman, you just got in as we are about to adjourn. mr. lane was telling us of one piece of information that he had concerning a meeting that was held at the carousel nightclub, about a week, did you say---- mr. lane. yes. the chairman. about a week before the assassination, at which the man who financed this full-page article in the paper, dallas paper, this morning, concerning president kennedy, and officer tippit, and he told us in private here--he didn't want to mention it before the press--jack ruby. and he tells us that he will try to find out from his informant more about that, and if he possibly can deliver the information to us. senator cooper. may i ask one question? i assume from what you have said you wouldn't be able to answer it, but was there any reason ascribed for the presence of tippit? mr. lane. my informant does not know the reason. senator cooper. or ruby, with weissman? mr. lane. my informant does not know that information. representative ford. may i ask a question, mr. chief justice? when did this information come to your attention, mr. lane? mr. lane. some weeks ago. representative ford. do you consider the informant a reliable, responsible person? mr. lane. yes. i cannot vouch, of course, for the information personally, but i believe the informant is a reliable and a responsible person. representative ford. would your informant be willing, as far as you know--be willing to testify and give the commission this information directly? mr. lane. i am going to try to arrange that this evening. the chief justice has indicated that his name would not be known if he did that, and that i did not know that i could make that statement to him before now. i hope that will be decisive. the chairman. is there anything further, gentlemen? if not---- representative ford. may i ask, mr. chairman, are we going to have a schedule laid out, are we going to have a meeting of the commission where maybe we will know what the schedule is in the next week or days or weeks? mr. rankin. we have a draft now. the chairman. we have a draft for you to see. mr. lane. perhaps i should withdraw at this time. the chairman. all right. mr. lane, thank you very much, sir. (whereupon, at : p.m., the president's commission recessed.) _monday, march , _ testimony of roy h. kellerman, william robert greer, clinton j. hill, and rufus wayne youngblood the president's commission met at : a.m. on march , , at maryland avenue ne., washington, d.c. present were chief justice earl warren, chairman; senator john sherman cooper, representative hale boggs, and representative gerald r. ford, members. also present were norman redlich, assistant counsel; arlen specter, assistant counsel; walter craig and charles murray, observers; and fred smith, treasury department. testimony of roy h. kellerman, special agent, secret service the chairman. gentlemen, the commission will be in order. will you be seated, please? would you state the names of the witnesses who are to be heard today, mr. specter? mr. specter. yes, your honor; the witnesses are to be roy kellerman of the secret service, william r. greer of the secret service, clinton hill, also of the secret service, and rufus youngblood, representative of the secret service. the chairman. very well, gentlemen; you know the purpose of the meeting, and we will call first, mr. who? mr. specter. mr. kellerman is our first witness. the chairman. mr. kellerman. gentlemen, i want to announce that today it will be necessary for me to spend practically all of the morning with the supreme court, and in my absence congressman ford will conduct the hearing today because he can be here practically all the time. i will be here in and out throughout the day, however. congressman ford, will you take over please? representative ford. thank you very much, mr. chairman. the chairman. will you proceed? i believe the first thing is to swear the witness. mr. specter. very good, sir. representative ford. do you promise to tell the truth, the whole truth, so help you god? mr. kellerman. i do, sir. mr. specter. will you state your full name for the record, please? mr. kellerman. my name is roy h. kellerman. mr. specter. by whom are you employed, mr. kellerman? mr. kellerman. i am employed as a special agent for the secret service. mr. specter. how old are you? mr. kellerman. i am years old. mr. specter. married? mr. kellerman. pardon? mr. specter. are you married? mr. kellerman. yes, sir; i am married and have two daughters; their ages are and . mr. specter. where do you reside? mr. kellerman. bethesda, md. mr. specter. what is your current duty station with the secret service? mr. kellerman. my current duty station is assistant special agent in charge of the white house detail. mr. specter. how long have you been with the secret service? mr. kellerman. this is my d year. mr. specter. will you sketch in a general outline what your duties have been with the secret service since the time you started with them, please? mr. kellerman. i was appointed an agent with the secret service in detroit, mich., the th of december . i was transferred to washington, d.c., the field office, on february , . prior to that i had a -day assignment in the office of cincinnati, ohio, temporarily. i worked in the washington field office from the th of february until the middle of march , whereby i was temporarily transferred to the white house detail. this transfer became permanent, effective, i believe it was, the th of april or the latter part of april in , still as a special agent. at the white house detail we work on shifts around the clock, protecting the president and his family. i was a member of one of those three shifts. presently, these shifts change on a two-weekly basis, from to , to midnight, and midnight to . i remained on the white house detail until february , , when i was transferred to indianapolis, ind. prior to that time i had received enough seniority whereby i grew up on this shift from the bottom to the top, and was in charge of one of the shifts prior to my departure to indianapolis. this was fieldwork in indiana. on february , , i was transferred back to the white house detail. on my return i was comparable to like, let's say, the no. man of a shift. i was not in charge of it. from , i believe a couple of years later a vacancy occurred, a top man of that shift left and i received his position. that title was assistant to the special agent in charge. you at that time governed each man on your shift. you were in charge of him. on october of a vacancy was opened in the three top officials of the white house detail, which are comprised of, let me say, the special agent in charge, who has two assistants; one vacancy occurred. it was the oldest man on the white house detail; it was given to me and that is why today i have the title of assistant special agent in charge. mr. specter. now, since you brought us up to , have your duties remained the same since that time? mr. kellerman. i should bring you up to . in , i was transferred back to the white house detail, remained on that status on shift work until , whereas i am now an assistant special agent in charge, which duties are the overseeing and the complete responsibility of the entire white house detail. mr. specter. what is your educational background, mr.---- mr. kellerman. i am a high school graduate only. mr. specter. what year did you graduate from high school? mr. kellerman. . mr. specter. what were your activities between graduation from high school and the time you joined the secret service, please? mr. kellerman. in october of i completed the training with the michigan state police. i was sworn in as a trooper. i remained with the michigan state police until december , , when i resigned and was appointed to the u.s. secret service. mr. specter. how were you employed or occupied from the time of graduation from high school until the time you joined the michigan state police? mr. kellerman. there wasn't too much work; was my first work with the dodge corp. of the chrysler people in detroit. mr. specter. how long did you work there, sir? mr. kellerman. three years, off and on. mr. specter. you described in a general way the organization of the secret service on the white house protective detail. who is the special agent in charge? mr. kellerman. mr. gerald a. behn, sir. mr. specter. was he the special agent in charge back on november , ? mr. kellerman. he was. mr. specter. how many shifts are there? mr. kellerman. three shifts, sir. mr. specter. and approximately how many men are assigned to each shift? mr. kellerman. ten men on each shift, sir. mr. specter. what were your specific duties back on november of ? mr. kellerman. my specific duty, gentlemen, on the d of november of , i was in charge of the detail for this trip of president kennedy, for the trip to texas in those days. mr. specter. how did you personally make the trip to texas? mr. kellerman. i rode on the president's plane on the entire tour. mr. specter. would you outline in a general way the times of departure and arrival on the trip to texas up until the morning of november , please? mr. kellerman. i just don't have the time we left washington, d.c. mr. specter. without the precise times; just in a general way. mr. kellerman. all right. we departed in the morning from washington. our first stop was in san antonio, tex. mr. specter. which morning was that, sir? mr. kellerman. it was november ; it was at san antonio, tex., that we picked up the then vice president johnson. the two people continued on this tour of the state in separate planes. during our stay in san antonio, we then flew from san antonio to houston, tex. there were ceremonies there, and the program there which had been set up. from houston we flew into fort worth, tex., where we remained overnight on november . we arrived at the texas hotel, it was a little after o'clock in the evening. there were no activities until the following morning, november . mr. specter. what time did the activities start the following morning? mr. kellerman. on november , the activities started at around : in the morning when the president, accompanied by the then vice president johnson, and a few congressional leaders walked out the front door, across this street which was a parking lot, and a few minutes' speech was made to the gathering there. it was a light drizzle at the time. from there we returned to the hotel and he attended a breakfast given by the chamber of commerce and, i believe it was, a citizens group of fort worth. on completion of the breakfast he returned to his suite. the weather was then changing. it had quit raining and it looked like it was going to break out and be a real beautiful day. in the neighborhood of o'clock in the morning i received a call from mr. lawson, special agent lawson, who had the advance from dallas, tex. mr. specter. mr. lawson was with the secret service, was he? mr. kellerman. yes, sir; he is. he asked me to determine whether the bubbletop car that the president would ride in in dallas that day should have the top down or remain up. mr. specter. let me interrupt you there for just a minute, mr. kellerman. i show you a photograph which has been marked as commission exhibit no. . are you able to identify that picture and the automobile in that picture? mr. kellerman. yes, sir; this is the lincoln continental four-door convertible bubbletop. it is a special car. mr. specter. for the purpose of the record, how many doors does that car have? mr. kellerman. this vehicle has four doors. mr. specter. and in the posture of the picture identified as commission exhibit , is the top up or down? mr. kellerman. the top is down, sir. mr. specter. and what top does that automobile have? mr. kellerman. this top is a plastic top. from the rear of the passenger all the way to the windshield there are four sections of plastic glass. the one that comes over the top of the passengers in the back seat, two little sections that come over the two doors, and one over the driver and passenger in the front seat. mr. specter. in what way is that attached, if any, to the car? mr. kellerman. securely bolted, screwed. mr. specter. mr. chairman, may i ask that the exhibit be introduced formally in evidence, please? representative ford. it will be so admitted. (the photograph referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification and received in evidence.) mr. specter. i now hand you a photograph marked commission exhibit . are you able to tell us what that depicts? mr. kellerman. yes, sir; this is the same vehicle as mentioned in . the difference being the top is up and there is a covering, a cloth covering that also fits over this plastic top. mr. specter. and exhibit no. is taken from what angle, mr. kellerman? mr. kellerman. from the rear, sir. mr. specter. as contrasted with exhibit no. , which is taken from what angle? mr. kellerman. this is from the right side. mr. specter. i ask that exhibit be introduced, if the commission please. representative ford. so admitted. (the photograph referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification and received in evidence.) mr. specter. i now hand you a photograph marked commission exhibit , mr. kellerman, and ask you if you can tell us what that depicts. mr. kellerman. this picture depicts the interior of this same automobile. it has a rear solid seat; there are two other jump seats that can be folded forward in the rear and the complete solid front seat for the driver and passenger. this is the same vehicle. mr. specter. will you describe what, if anything, is present between the front seat and the rear seat area? mr. kellerman. yes, sir. this metal partition that is erected in back of the driver, between the driver and the passengers in the rear seat, is a metal framework that goes over the car. it has four holes in it. these holes are utilized by the president for parades. as an example, say it was used in washington where you had an official visitor, and in using one of the streets here as your parade route, he and his guest would stand in this car where the people could view them a little better than sitting in the rear seat. mr. specter. where is that metal bar positioned with respect to the front seat? mr. kellerman. it is positioned over the front seat; the top of this bar would be or inches over my head. mr. specter. is it directly over the back portion of the front seat? mr. kellerman. yes, sir. directly over the front seat. mr. specter. and you describe it as or inches over your head. can you give us an estimate of the distance above the top of the front seat? mr. kellerman. oh, i am guessing in the neighborhood of , inches. mr. specter. what is the width of that metal bar? mr. kellerman. the bar, to inches, i would say. mr. specter. can you tell us approximately how wide the automobile itself is? mr. kellerman. no; i can't. mr. specter. with respect to the automobile, are there any running boards? mr. kellerman. there are no running boards. mr. specter. is there any place on the car where someone can stand up and ride as it proceeds in motion? mr. kellerman. yes; on the rear of the vehicle, sir. mr. specter. how many such positions are there? mr. kellerman. there is a step on each side of the spare tire, one man on each one. mr. specter. and is there any facility for holding on with a man riding in those positions? mr. kellerman. yes, sir; there is a metal arm erected on the trunk where a man can hold on while standing on the rear of the car. mr. specter. all right. may it please the commission, i move that exhibit be introduced in evidence. representative ford. it will be so admitted. (the photograph referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification and received in evidence.) mr. specter. with reference to the bubble top which you have heretofore described, of what is that composed? mr. kellerman. it is composed of plastic, clear plastic substance. its use would be for a weather matter whereby the president or his occupants can see out. it is not an enclosed car. mr. specter. is it bulletproof? mr. kellerman. it is not bulletproof. mr. specter. is it bullet resistant in any way? mr. kellerman. it's not bullet resistant. mr. specter. could you describe in a general way at this point what efforts, if any, have been made to obtain a bulletproof clear top for the president's automobile? mr. kellerman. presently? mr. specter. presently or heretofore. mr. kellerman. i am going to have to go in the present day. mr. specter. fine. mr. kellerman. this same vehicle, i understand, is being completed with a bullet-resistant top and sides. representative ford. can you explain the difference between bullet resistant and the existing kind of the top? mr. kellerman. i can't; i really can't. i have been behind on this thing and i am at a loss for a better answer. representative ford. could the present top deflect in any way, destroy the accuracy of a shot? mr. kellerman. this would be a guess, mr. congressman. i would think that it would be deterred for, let's say, the velocity of a missile coming in at great speed, i think it would deter it; i don't think it would eliminate--it still would enter the top. representative ford. the vehicle. mr. kellerman. i am sure; yes, sir. representative ford. but as far as you know the top that was available would not impede the projectile? do you know whether or not it would deflect its accuracy? mr. kellerman. well, i have tried to study that, sir. the angle of the back as an example which is, what degree i don't recall, hoping that--of course, it was now known to be an upshot into the vehicle hoping that it would deter its force and so forth, but i really don't know. i kind of doubt it. mr. specter. mr. kellerman, in describing the top as being not bulletproof and not bullet resistant, state whether you are describing the top which they are currently working on or the top which was present at the time of november , ? mr. kellerman. that is the top that they are currently working on. mr. specter. well, as to the bubble top which accompanied this car on november , , was that bulletproof or bullet resistant? mr. kellerman. it was not; neither. mr. specter. do you know whether or not an effort is being made at the present time to develop a bullet-resistant or bulletproof top. mr. kellerman. yes sir; it is. mr. specter. are you personally familiar with the progress of that effort? mr. kellerman. i am not, sir. mr. specter. do you know how the president's automobile was transported from washington, d.c., to texas? mr. kellerman. yes, sir. the president's vehicle was transported to san antonio by cargo aircraft. it was flown to san antonio a day before the president arrived. it was then flown from san antonio to dallas, where it was used on november . this vehicle was not used in the other two stops at houston and fort worth. representative ford. when you say cargo aircraft---- mr. kellerman. like a c- , sir. representative ford. a government? mr. kellerman. you are right, sir; that is right. mr. specter. mr. kellerman, what were the president's activities, if you know immediately prior to the time he departed from fort worth? senator cooper. might i ask just one question? mr. specter. yes, sir. senator cooper. do you know whether or not prior to november the president's car had ever been equipped with a top which had the capacity to stop or deflect a bullet? mr. kellerman. never had been, senator. senator cooper. there was none in existence? mr. kellerman. no, sir. mr. specter. mr. kellerman, what were the president's activities immediately before departing from fort worth on the morning of november ? mr. kellerman. first he walked from the hotel across the street, spoke to a group that were in a parking lot, with other congressional people there in texas. from there he walked right into the hotel and entered the ballroom where a breakfast was held, given to him by the chamber of commerce and, i believe, the citizens group in fort worth. from there he returned to his suite because there was time left before his departure for dallas. it was up there in the neighborhood of o'clock in the morning that special agent lawson called me from dallas asking me to verify whether the top should be put on--should remain on the president's car or should be taken off due to the change of weather. it had been raining slightly in dallas at that time. i said, "one moment and i will check with you one way or the other." as i said earlier, the weather was clearing in fort worth; it was going to be a nice day. i asked mr. kenneth o'donnell, who is president kennedy's appointment secretary: "mr. o'donnell," i said, "the weather; it is slightly raining in dallas, predictions of clearing up. do you desire to have the bubbletop on the president's car or do you, or would you desire to have it removed for this parade over to the trade mart?" his instructions to me were, "if the weather is clear and it is not raining, have that bubbletop off," and that is exactly what i relayed to mr. lawson. mr. specter. now, at about what time did president kennedy depart from fort worth? mr. kellerman. we were airborne from fort worth at : in the morning. mr. specter. in what plane were you airborne? mr. kellerman. in the president's special plane, sir. mr. specter. what time did you arrive in that plane in dallas? mr. kellerman. we arrived in dallas, love field, at : a.m. mr. specter. describe in a general way what president kennedy's activities were at love field, please. mr. kellerman. very well. may i add this: again i said there were two planes in this program. the then vice president johnson would be in a separate plane. he would land ahead of us by a minute or two, all right. he is in dallas by the time we arrive at : a.m. as we are spotted on the apron at love field and when the ramp is pulled forward, the vice president, then vice president johnson and mrs. johnson, together with a selected group of people would form a reception committee from the end of the ramp straight out to where the motorcade was in place. at : , as i said, the president and mrs. kennedy left that plane, met these people. as we finished greeting these folks here, there was an elderly lady wheeled up in a wheelchair; her name i do not know; the both of them met her. by this time the people are starting to get in their automobiles for this trip into town. the president then noticed that there was quite a gathering of people at this airport in back of a fenced area, and, with her, they both walked over to this crowded area and started shaking hands and greeting these people who had been there perhaps some time before we got in. mr. specter. by "her", who do you mean, sir? mr. kellerman. mrs. kennedy; i am sorry. mr. specter. what would you estimate the crowd to be? mr. kellerman. in the thousands; i would say there were two, three, four thousand people there. mr. specter. approximately how long did the greeting of the crowd at love field last, mr. kellerman? mr. kellerman. fifteen minutes. the motorcade left love field at : . mr. specter. approximately how many cars were there in that motorcade? mr. kellerman. at least . mr. specter. what was the first car in line? mr. kellerman. the first car in line, sir, was what we call the police pilot car. the duties of these police officers in that car--they would drive ahead. mr. specter. do you personally know who was in that car? mr. kellerman. no, sir. mr. specter. how far ahead of the regular motorcade were they to be? mr. kellerman. they could be several blocks ahead of us. mr. specter. what is the general purpose of that pilot car? mr. kellerman. the purpose of that pilot car is to clear the roadway and instruct the officers along the route that the president is in motion and coming in back of them. next you will find a small group of motorcycles. mr. specter. do you know how many motorcycles there were in dallas on that day? mr. kellerman. no; i don't. mr. specter. will you tell us what the custom is with respect to motorcycles? mr. kellerman. yes, sir; those motorcycles that would be in back of that police car were to assist any officers along the way in any disturbance that they would run into before we got to that point, or secondly, in the event that we needed them back on our car they could be called, utilized. mr. specter. what is the next car in line? mr. kellerman. the next car is the lead car. that car on that day was driven by chief curry of the dallas police department. his occupants in that car was special agent winston lawson, who was carrying a portable radio with him. also in this car was special agent in charge verne sorrels, in charge of our dallas office. the other occupant, i believe, was a deputy sheriff. mr. specter. was it sheriff decker, perhaps, of dallas county? mr. kellerman. the name doesn't reach me, sir; i am sorry. mr. specter. you described a radio. will you tell us a little more fully what radio transmission there was in the motorcade, please? mr. kellerman. yes, sir. this lead car which mr. lawson was in has a portable radio. the president's car is next. this is equipped with a permanent set radio on the same frequency as that gentleman up front. the next car is our secret service followup car which has a permanent installation. the secret service car, as i say, is equipped with a permanent installation which connects the president's car and the lead car. the next car in back of our secret service car was the then vice president johnson. the secret service agent in that car had a portable radio that he could read all three of us ahead. his car following was a small secret service followup car, and they, too, had a portable set, which could read all four. so we had a net of five on our own frequency. in the police cars they had their own city police frequency radios. mr. specter. how many frequencies were used by your own network? mr. kellerman. one. representative ford. do you have an alternative frequency, emergency frequency? mr. kellerman. yes, sir; we do. we have two of them. mr. specter. what automobile came behind the lead automobile? mr. kellerman. the president's car. mr. specter. describe the occupants of that car, indicating their positions, if you can, please. mr. kellerman. yes. the president--president kennedy sat on the right rear seat. next to him on the left seat was mrs. kennedy. on the right jump seat in front of president kennedy was governor connally. on the left jump seat in front of mrs. kennedy was mrs. connally. i sat on the right passenger seat of the driver's seat, and special agent william greer drove the vehicle. mr. specter. how far were you behind the lead car? mr. kellerman. no more than two or three car lengths. senator cooper. what is that? i didn't hear it. mr. kellerman. no more than two or three car lengths, senator cooper. mr. specter. what car immediately followed the president's car? mr. kellerman. our own secret service followup car. mr. specter. what kind of a car was that? mr. kellerman. this is a cadillac, four-door touring car with the top down. mr. specter. was that also a special automobile flown in? mr. kellerman. this is a special automobile, flown in with the president's car; yes, sir; that is correct. mr. specter. and who were the occupants of that car, indicating their positions in the car? mr. kellerman. all during this ride in from love field special agent sam kinney was the driver of this automobile. the assistant to the special agent in charge emory roberts was sitting in the front seat, the passenger side. this car has running boards. standing on the front of the left running board was special agent clinton hill. in back of him on the rear of that same running board on that side was special agent william mcintyre. on the right running board standing forward was special agent john ready, and standing in back of him on the rear of the right running board was special agent paul landis. mr. specter. did that automobile have jump seats? mr. kellerman. this automobile has jump seats. mr. specter. and what people occupied the jump seats? mr. kellerman. it was occupied by mr. kenneth o'donnell, who was the appointment secretary of president kennedy, and mr. dave powers. mr. specter. do you know which sat on which side? mr. kellerman. mr. o'donnell sat on the left; mr. powers sat on the right. mr. specter. who was in the back seat of that automobile? mr. kellerman. the back seat of that automobile on the right side was special agent george hickey, and on the left side special agent glen bennett. mr. specter. how were the special agents in the followup car armed, if at all? mr. kellerman. each agent carries his own gun. this is a -inch revolver on their person. mr. specter. would that apply to you and mr. greer as well? mr. kellerman. absolutely. mr. specter. were there any other arms in the president's followup car? mr. kellerman. yes, sir; in this followup car we have what is now known as an ar- . this is a rifle, and it is on all movements; this vehicle is out of the case; it won't be shown; it could be laying flat on the floor, but she is ready to go. mr. specter. now, how far behind the president's car did the presidential followup car follow? mr. kellerman. not knowing how far it was behind, i would say, from the practice of that driver that he has, five feet would be a maximum. mr. specter. what car was in the motorcade immediately behind the president's followup car? mr. kellerman. that was vice president johnson's car then. mr. specter. what kind of a car was that on that particular day? mr. kellerman. this was a lincoln four-door continental convertible. this was a four-door car, with no top on it. mr. specter. is that a special car, also, or is that obtained on the market? mr. kellerman. this is not a special car; it is a car that is on the market. mr. specter. what car followed the vice president's car? mr. kellerman. the car following his car was a police car. it was driven by a member of the dallas police force, or i just don't recall. i am sorry. mr. specter. do you have personal knowledge or detail of the occupants of the vice president's car? mr. kellerman. yes; i do. mr. specter. who was present there? mr. kellerman. special agent rufus youngblood sat in the front seat on the right side. in back of him on the right side and the rear was the then vice president johnson. next to him was mrs. johnson, and next to mrs. johnson was senator yarborough. mr. specter. was vice president johnson seated on the right side or the left side of the rear seat? mr. kellerman. on the right side, sir. mr. specter. were there jump seats in the vice president's car? mr. kellerman. no, sir. mr. specter. do you know the identity of the driver of the vice president's car? mr. kellerman. yes, sir. mr. specter. who was that? mr. kellerman. that was mr. hurchel jacks. he is a dallas police officer. mr. specter. might he be a texas state police officer? mr. kellerman. yes, sir; you are right. mr. specter. do you know the identity of all of the individuals in the vice president's followup car? mr. kellerman. not the driver. the agents, yes. mr. specter. who were they, sir? mr. kellerman. special agent thomas l. johns, special agent warren taylor, and i believe that is all. mr. specter. are you able to indicate their precise positions? mr. kellerman. no, no. mr. specter. now, what car, if you know, followed the vice president's followup car? mr. kellerman. that was car--as an example, car no. , which would be a congressional car; the occupants i do not know at the present time. mr. specter. and behind that car, describe in a general way the balance of the motorcade, if you will, please. mr. kellerman. all right. the balance of the motorcade, the back of that car no. which would be the congressional people would be two press cars, one covering the wire people, and one would be the photographic group. then you would have a series of guest cars, and then a press bus. and then a police car followup, bringing up the entire motorcade. mr. specter. you described the motorcycles which followed the pilot car. were there any other motorcycles in the motorcade? mr. kellerman. yes, sir; we had four other motorcycles opposite the back wheel of the president's vehicle, sir. mr. specter. were those on both sides or on each side? mr. kellerman. on each side; two on each side. mr. specter. were there any other motorcycles in the balance of the motorcade? mr. kellerman. not that i recall. mr. specter. at what speed did the motorcade proceed at the various times en route, say, from love field down to the downtown section of dallas, tex.? mr. kellerman. as we left love field, the driveway from this apron on the field was sort of a winding thing, and there were many people that gathered on the roadside to view him as they passed. i don't think we traveled more than to miles until we left the airport apron proper. mr. specter. twelve to fifteen miles per hour? mr. kellerman. per hour. mr. specter. yes. mr. kellerman. then, as we were in the opening between there and the city limits of dallas, we could have gone to . mr. specter. what was the size of the crowd at that specific point? mr. kellerman. nothing in between then until we hit the outskirts of the city. of course, then you got into a residential, a school, area where all the people were out on the curb line. mr. specter. what was the speed when you reached that area? mr. kellerman. then we would reduce the speed down to miles an hour. mr. specter. what is your best estimate of the minimum speed traveled until you reached the downtown area? mr. kellerman. we could have been going to at several times, sir. mr. specter. what were the crowds like in the downtown area itself? mr. kellerman. a lot of people. mr. specter. what was the speed of the motorcade when you came into the downtown area? mr. kellerman. it would be reduced down to to miles an hour, sir. mr. specter. were there any unusual occurrences en route from love field until, say, you got to the downtown area of dallas, tex.? mr. kellerman. as we were on the outskirts of this town and apparently reaching a crowded area there were a group of youngsters on the right side of the car curb-line-wise, that had a large sign, oh, perhaps the width of the two windows there, that said, "please, mr. president, stop and shake our hands," and he saw this and he called to the driver and said, "stop," he said, "call these people over and i will shake their hands," which we did. the entire motorcade stopped. i got out of the car and stood alongside of it while these people were right up on me. the agents who were on the followup car, all around it. and then after a few seconds he said, "all right; let's travel on." mr. specter. you say the agents in the followup car moved up at the stopping? mr. kellerman. always, sir. mr. specter. specifically, what did they do on that occasion? mr. kellerman. they crowded right in between the president, the car, and the people. mr. specter. did the president actually leave the car? mr. kellerman. no. mr. specter. and how long did that stop last? mr. kellerman. a matter of seconds. mr. specter. was there any other unusual occurrence en route to the downtown area itself? mr. kellerman. no; i can recall, however, one small affair. i think we were in the heart of dallas on this street when a young boy jumped off the curb and apparently he was thinking of running over to the president's car and shaking his hands when one of our people left the followup car and put him back on the curb, and that all happened in motion so there was nothing out of the way. mr. specter. i show you a photograph marked commission exhibit no. and ask you if you are at this time able to tell us what that photograph represents. the chairman. congressman ford, may i interrupt at this time to ask to be excused? i have a session in the supreme court, but i will be back later. representative ford. thank you very much, mr. chief justice. (chief justice warren left the hearing room.) mr. kellerman. this is an aerial photo of the downtown parade. mr. specter. are you able to identify the street on which you proceeded coming into the area depicted by that photograph? mr. kellerman. yes, sir. this is--this would be main street as we came into the heart of dallas. mr. specter. i think it might be helpful if we marked that as main street if we can get a pencil or pen that will mark on that. mr. craig. may i suggest the witness mark it? mr. specter. i think it is a good idea. will you mark the street which you have identified as main street? (witness marking.) mr. specter. will you also mark---- mr. kellerman. we were traveling---- mr. specter. the street onto which you turned from main street? mr. kellerman. as we were coming up from main street or down, either way. mr. specter. in what general direction were you proceeding on main street? mr. kellerman. this was a westerly direction. mr. specter. would you put an arrow indicating which way is north on the map? that is a general northerly direction on the map. (witness indicating.) mr. specter. will you mark an arrow on main street showing the direction on which you were proceeding on main? and how far did you proceed on main street to what street? mr. kellerman. elm street, sir. this is a very short block, maybe a couple of hundred feet at the most. mr. specter. my question was to what street did you proceed on main? you then drove to what street? mr. kellerman. houston street. mr. specter. which way did you turn onto houston street? mr. kellerman. turned right, which would be north. mr. specter. will you mark the street that you have told us would be houston street? (witness indicating.) mr. specter. how far did you proceed down houston street? mr. kellerman. i am sure it wasn't more than feet at the most. it was a real short block. mr. specter. what street then did you turn onto as you turned off of houston street? mr. kellerman. from houston we turned onto elm, which was a rather sharp turn with a downgrade, sir. mr. specter. was that a turn on the left or the right? mr. kellerman. to the left, sir. mr. specter. i ask that exhibit be admitted in evidence, may it please the commission. representative ford. it will be admitted. mr. specter. i now show you a photograph marked commission exhibit no. , mr. kellerman, and i ask you if you are able at this time to identify what building is in that picture? mr. kellerman. this building right straight ahead in the photo--i couldn't have told you on the day of the nd of november what it was, but as of now this is the texas depository building. mr. specter. is that the building known as the texas school book depository building? mr. kellerman. that is right, sir. (the photograph marked commission exhibits nos. and for identification and received in evidence.) mr. specter. will you mark on exhibit --we have , we will get back in a moment. i would like to have you mark in the aerial shot the precise location of that building with the initials "ts." (witness marks.) mr. specter. for the written part of our record will you describe how many stories high the texas school book depository building is? mr. kellerman. this is a seven-story building. from here it appears to be a rather square-type constructed. mr. specter. all right. as you were proceeding in a generally northerly direction on houston street, can you describe the layout of the street, indicating first the approximate width of that street? mr. kellerman. houston street is a rather wide city street similar to anything we have here in washington, really, and being in the heart of the business section, i would say that it was a six-lane street at the time. mr. specter. what was on your right as you proceeded down houston street? mr. kellerman. the buildings. mr. specter. and how about on your left? mr. kellerman. on my left it was open. mr. specter. as you turned left onto elm street, will you describe what was on your right? mr. kellerman. as we turned left onto elm street and left this building that we are speaking of here---- mr. specter. is that the texas school book depository building? mr. kellerman. yes; then your area became clear. mr. specter. on the right? mr. kellerman. on the right, sir. this was an open field area with a hill. now, there were, if i recall correctly, just at the brink of the hill, right beyond this building in question, there was a small white--how can i describe it? mr. specter. a little park area? mr. kellerman. a little park area; that is right. and beyond it it was all open. mr. specter. what was on your left at about that time as you proceeded down elm street? mr. kellerman. right. as we turned left on elm street off houston, this, too, was a little plaza area, and kind of a triangular thing where the street was on the opposite side; this is an apparently one-way street, and directly to our left as we turned you had to view, this looked like a little one-story plaza building or structure. mr. specter. to complete the scene, as you looked ahead of you down elm street what, if anything, did you see immediately in front of you? mr. kellerman. yes. first thing that i saw was that the road was going to turn, and then a little further ahead we had a viaduct which we were going under. mr. specter. do you know what name the dallas texans give to that viaduct? mr. kellerman. no; i really don't. mr. specter. have you heard it described since as the triple overpass? mr. kellerman. no; i haven't. mr. specter. what was the approximate width of elm street in lanes of travel, if you recall? mr. kellerman. it is at least three lanes, sir. mr. specter. and describe the terrain, whether it was smooth, level or in what way you went as you went down elm street. mr. kellerman. as we went down elm street, there was a smooth road and the terrain on each side was a grassy plotted area, a very cleared-off area, visibility tremendous. mr. specter. and describe the composure of the crowds at that time. mr. kellerman. as we turned north on to houston street, this was primarily the end of the crowd in dallas, tex.; in the downtown section, there were still a few on the sidewalk until we got to elm street. as we turned in a northerly direction to elm street, which would be on our left, then the crowds just diminished. they were spotty, standing on the grassy plot. they were not on the side of the street. in fact, there were just a matter of a handful, that was all, and we were through it. mr. specter. do you know what time it was when you got to the intersection of houston and elm on november ? mr. kellerman. not at houston and elm; no. no; i don't. mr. specter. what was the speed of the motorcade, mr. kellerman, as you were proceeding down main street at about the time you turned right onto houston? mr. kellerman. ten, fifteen, no more; real parade speed. mr. specter. how far ahead of you was the lead car at that time? mr. kellerman. again, it was four or five car lengths in front. mr. specter. do you know how far behind you the president's followup car was as you turned right onto houston from main street? mr. kellerman. no; i don't, but i am positive it was right on our rear wheels. mr. specter. all right. now, as you turned left off houston onto elm, what is your best estimate of the speed of the president's automobile at that time? mr. kellerman. as we turned onto elm street and the crowd, we were through the section of dallas; we might have had--the driver picked it up because we were all through. purely a guess, we could have been going at the most . mr. specter. what would your estimate, your minimum estimate, of the speed be? mr. kellerman. fifteen. mr. specter. as you turned left onto elm street, how far were you behind the lead car at that point? mr. kellerman. i am going to say the same; three to five car lengths, but i can, to go a little further, i can see this car ahead of me. he is not running away from us. mr. specter. how about the pilot car; was that car in sight? mr. kellerman. no; that i didn't see; i didn't see it. mr. specter. do you know from your personal observation at the time you turned left onto elm street how far the president's followup car was behind you at that point? mr. kellerman. not from personal observation. mr. specter. all right. now, describe what occurred as you proceeded down elm street after turning off of houston. mr. kellerman. as we turned off houston onto elm and made the short little dip to the left going down grade, as i said, we were away from buildings, and were--there was a sign on the side of the road which i don't recall what it was or what it said, but we no more than passed that and you are out in the open, and there is a report like a firecracker, pop. and i turned my head to the right because whatever this noise was i was sure that it came from the right and perhaps into the rear, and as i turned my head to the right to view whatever it was or see whatever it was, i heard a voice from the back seat and i firmly believe it was the president's, "my god, i am hit," and i turned around and he has got his hands up here like this. mr. specter. indicating right hand up toward his neck? mr. kellerman. that is right, sir. in fact, both hands were up in that direction. senator cooper. which side of his neck? mr. kellerman. beg pardon? senator cooper. which side of his neck? mr. kellerman. both hands were up, sir; this one is like this here and here we are with the hands---- mr. specter. indicating the left hand is up above the head. mr. kellerman. in the collar section. mr. specter. as you are positioning yourself in the witness chair, your right hand is up with the finger at the ear level as if clutching from the right of the head; would that be an accurate description of the position you pictured there? mr. kellerman. yes. good. there was enough for me to verify that the man was hit. so, in the same motion i come right back and grabbed the speaker and said to the driver, "let's get out of here; we are hit," and grabbed the mike and i said, "lawson, this is kellerman,"--this is lawson, who is in the front car. "we are hit; get us to the hospital immediately." now, in the seconds that i talked just now, a flurry of shells come into the car. i then looked back and this time mr. hill, who was riding on the left front bumper of our followup car, was on the back trunk of that car; the president was sideways down into the back seat. mr. specter. indicating on his left side. mr. kellerman. right; just like i am here. mr. specter. you mean, correct, left side? mr. kellerman. correct; yes, sir. governor connally by that time is lying flat backwards into her lap--mrs. connally--and she was lying flat over him. mr. specter. who was lying flat over him? mr. kellerman. mrs. connally was lying flat over the governor. mr. specter. you say that you turned to your right immediately after you heard a shot? mr. kellerman. yes, sir. mr. specter. what was the reason for your reacting to your right? mr. kellerman. that was the direction that i heard this noise, pop. mr. specter. do you have a reaction as to the height from which the noise came? mr. kellerman. no; honestly, i do not. representative ford. was there any reaction that you noticed on the part of greer when the noise was noticed by you? mr. kellerman. you are referring, mr. congressman, to the reaction to get this car out of there? representative ford. yes. mr. kellerman. mr. congressman, i have driven that car many times, and i never cease to be amazed even to this day with the weight of the automobile plus the power that is under the hood; we just literally jumped out of the god-damn road. representative ford. as soon as this noise was heard, or as soon as you transmitted this message to lawson? mr. kellerman. as soon as i transmitted to the driver first as i went to lawson. i just leaned sideways to him and said, "let's get out of here. we are hit." representative ford. that comment was made to greer; not to lawson? mr. kellerman. yes, sir; that is right. representative ford. and the subsequent message was to lawson? mr. kellerman. correct. that is right. mr. specter. with relationship to that first noise that you have described, when did you hear the voice? mr. kellerman. his voice? mr. specter. we will start with his voice. mr. kellerman. ok. from the noise of which i was in the process of turning to determine where it was or what it was, it carried on right then. why i am so positive, gentlemen, that it was his voice--there is only one man in that back seat that was from boston, and the accents carried very clearly. mr. specter. well, had you become familiar with the president's voice prior to that day? mr. kellerman. yes; very much so. mr. specter. and what was the basis for your becoming familiar with his voice prior to that day? mr. kellerman. i had been with him for years. mr. specter. and had you talked with him on a very frequent basis during the course of that association? mr. kellerman. he was a very free man to talk to; yes. he knew most all the men, most everybody who worked in the white house as well as everywhere, and he would call you. mr. specter. and from your experience would you say that you could recognize the voice? mr. kellerman. very much, sir; i would. mr. specter. now, i think you may have answered this, but i want to pinpoint just when you heard that statement which you have attributed to president kennedy in relationship to the sound which you described as a firecracker. mr. kellerman. this noise which i attribute as a firecracker, when this occurred and i am in the process of determining where it comes because i am sure it came off my right rear somewhere; the voice broke in right then. mr. specter. at about the same time? mr. kellerman. that is correct, sir. that is right. mr. specter. now, did president kennedy say anything beside, "my god, i am hit." mr. kellerman. that is the last words he said, sir. mr. specter. did mrs. kennedy say anything at that specific time? mr. kellerman. mr. specter, there was an awful lot of confusion in that back seat. she did a lot of talking which i can't recall all the phrases. mr. specter. well, pinpoint---- mr. kellerman. but after the flurry of shots, i recall her saying, "what are they doing to you?" now again, of course, my comparison of the voice of her speech--certainly, i have heard it many times, and in the car there was conversation she was carrying on through shock, i am sure. mr. specter. well, going back to the precise time that you heard the president say, "my god, i am hit," do you recollect whether she said anything at that time? mr. kellerman. no. mr. specter. whether or not you can re-create what she said? mr. kellerman. not that i can recall right then, sir. this statement, or whatever she said, happened after all the shooting was over. mr. specter. all right. now, you have described hearing a noise which sounded like a firecracker and you have described turning to your right and described hearing the president's voice and, again, what was your next motion, if any, or movement, if any? mr. kellerman. after i was sure that his statement was right that he was hit, turned from the back i come right down---- mr. specter. you just indicated that you had turned to the left. had you turned to the left after hearing his voice? mr. kellerman. yes; certainly. mr. specter. and what did you see? you have described what you saw in terms of position of his hands. mr. kellerman. that was it. mr. specter. what did you do next? mr. kellerman. that is when i completely turned to my right and grabbed for the mike in the same motion, sideways telling the driver, "let's get out of here; we are hit." mr. specter. will you give us the best estimate of the lapse of time from the instant you heard the sound which appeared to you to be a firecracker until you instructed mr. greer in the way you have described? mr. kellerman. seconds. mr. specter. how many seconds? mr. kellerman. three or four. mr. specter. now, how long did it take you to relay the instructions which you have told us about to special agent lawson; what your best estimate would be? mr. kellerman. instant, in seconds again. again it is three to five. mr. specter. now, in your prior testimony you described a flurry of shells into the car. how many shots did you hear after the first noise which you described as sounding like a firecracker? mr. kellerman. mr. specter, these shells came in all together. mr. specter. are you able to say how many you heard? mr. kellerman. i am going to say two, and it was like a double bang--bang, bang. mr. specter. you mean now two shots in addition to the first noise? mr. kellerman. yes, sir; yes, sir; at least. mr. specter. what is your best estimate of the time, in seconds, from the first noise sounding like a firecracker until the second noise which you heard? mr. kellerman. this was instantaneous. mr. specter. no; let me repeat the question so i am sure you understand it. from the time you first heard the noise coming to your right rear, which you described as sounding like a firecracker, until you heard the flurry of shots? mr. kellerman. this is about how long it took, sir. as i am viewing, trying to determine this noise, i turned to my right and i heard the voice and i came back and i verify it and speak to the driver, grab the mike, these shots come in. mr. specter. well, you have described it as to seconds from the time---- mr. kellerman. no more. mr. specter. from the time of the first noise--wait a minute--until you gave the instruction to mr. greer and then as you made the statement to special agent lawson over the microphone that was an instantaneous timespan as you have described it. mr. kellerman. yes, sir. mr. specter. how soon thereafter did the flurry of shots come? mr. kellerman. they came in, mr. specter, while i am delivering that radio message. mr. specter. to mr. lawson. all right. was there any timespan which you could discern between the first and second shots and what you have described as the flurry? mr. kellerman. i will estimate seconds, if that. representative ford. but this flurry took place while you were occupied with these other activities; is that correct? mr. kellerman. that is right, sir. representative ford. you don't recall precisely a second shot and a third shot such as you did in the case of the first? mr. kellerman. let me give you an illustration, sir, before i can give you an answer. you have heard the sound barrier, of a plane breaking the sound barrier, bang, bang? that is it. representative ford. this is for the second and the third, or the flurry as you described it? mr. kellerman. that is right; that is right, sir. mr. specter. on your -second estimate, was that in reference, mr. kellerman, to the total timespan from the first noise until the flurry ended? mr. kellerman. that is right; that is right. mr. specter. all right. now, when the flurry occurred then, were you still facing forward talking into the microphone to lawson? mr. kellerman. that is right. mr. specter. all right. then precisely what was your next movement after completing the delivery of that message to lawson? mr. kellerman. when i completed the delivery of those instructions to lawson, i just hung up the receiver and looked back. mr. specter. to your right this time--to your left; pardon me. mr. kellerman. to my left; that is right. this is when i first viewed mr. hill, who was on the back of the---- mr. specter. precisely where was he in that instant? mr. kellerman. lying right across the trunk of the car with mrs. kennedy on the left rear. mr. hill's head was right up in back of her. mr. specter. when you describe the left rear you mean as the car was facing? mr. kellerman. as the car is traveling, sir; yes, sir. he was lying across the trunk of this car, feet on this side. mr. specter. was he flat across the trunk of the car? mr. kellerman. flat; that is right. mr. specter. what was the position of mrs. kennedy's body at that time? mr. kellerman. she was sitting up in the corner of this back seat, like this. mr. specter. so that she was on the buttocks area of her body at that time? mr. kellerman. yes, sir. mr. specter. and what movement, if any, did you observe mrs. kennedy make at that time? mr. kellerman. i never did see mrs. kennedy leave that back seat, sir. mr. specter. when you say the back seat, are you referring---- mr. kellerman. the seat she was sitting on. mr. specter. are you referring to the seat itself of the automobile? mr. kellerman. right. mr. specter. where did you look next; what did you observe following that? mr. kellerman. then i observed how the president was lying, which was--he was--flat in the seat in this direction. mr. specter. on his left-hand side? mr. kellerman. yes, sir. governor connally was lying straight on his back with mrs. connally over him about halfway. mr. specter. did governor connally say anything up to this point? mr. kellerman. no. mr. specter. did mrs. connally say anything up to that point? mr. kellerman. no. mr. specter. when was it that mrs. kennedy made the statement which you have described, "my god, what are they doing?" mr. kellerman. this occurred after the flurry of shots. mr. specter. at that time you looked back and saw special agent hill across the trunk of the car, had your automobile accelerated by that time? mr. kellerman. tremendously so; yes. mr. specter. now, to the best of your ability to recollect, exactly when did your automobile first accelerate? mr. kellerman. our car accelerated immediately on the time--at the time--this flurry of shots came into it. mr. specter. would you say the acceleration---- mr. kellerman. between the second and third shot. senator cooper. might i ask a question there? mr. specter. yes. senator cooper. a few minutes ago you said in response to a question that when you spoke to the driver the car leaped forward from an acceleration immediately. did that acceleration occur before the second shot was fired? mr. kellerman. yes, sir. just about the time that it came in. senator cooper. about the time it came in? mr. kellerman. yes, sir. senator cooper. not before? mr. kellerman. no. senator cooper. one other question: you said the flurry of shots came in the car. you were leaning forward talking to the driver after the first shot. what made you aware of a flurry of shots? mr. kellerman. senator, between all the matter that was--between all the matter that was blown off from an injured person, this stuff all came over. senator cooper. what was that? mr. kellerman. body matter; flesh. senator cooper. when you were speaking of a flurry of shots, was there a longer interval between the first shot and the second shot as compared to the interval between the second shot and the third shot? mr. kellerman. yes, sir. mr. specter. when did you first notice the substance which you have described as body matter? mr. kellerman. when i got to the hospital, sir, it was all over my coat. mr. specter. did you notice it flying past you at any time prior to your arrival at the hospital? mr. kellerman. yes; i know there was something in the air. mr. specter. when, in relation to the shots, mr. kellerman, did you notice the substance in the air? mr. kellerman. fine. when i have given the orders to mr. lawson, this is when it all came between the driver and myself. mr. specter. can you describe what it was in a little more detail as it appeared to you at that time? mr. kellerman. this is a rather poor comparison, but let's say you take a little handful of matter--i am going to use sawdust for want of a better item--and just throw it. mr. specter. can you describe the sound of the flurry of shots by way of distinction with the way you have described the sound of the first shot? mr. kellerman. well, having heard all types of guns fired, most of them, rather, if i recall correctly these were two sharp reports, sir. again, i am going to refer to it as like a plane going through a sound barrier; bang, bang. mr. specter. now, you are referring to the flurry? mr. kellerman. that is right. mr. specter. did it sound differently from the first noise you have described as being a firecracker? mr. kellerman. yes; definitely; very much so. representative ford. was there any other noise going on at the time of the second and third shots different from the noise of the crowd or otherwise at the time of the first shot? mr. kellerman. we had no crowd, sir. there was nothing there. representative ford. so the external noise was identical as far as the---- mr. kellerman. very much. representative ford. first or second or the third shot? mr. kellerman. yes, sir. we are in an open-field area, so to speak, and everything was just clear. representative ford. so there was no other sound that would have disturbed your hearing capability from the first through the third shot? mr. kellerman. that is right; no other shot. representative ford. your only problem would be your personal activity after the first shot. mr. kellerman. correct. representative ford. your activity of speaking to greer and talking to lawson? mr. kellerman. that is correct, sir; yes, sir. representative ford. was there any crowd reaction? mr. kellerman. there was no crowd. representative ford. there were a few stragglers? mr. kellerman. a handful, and i didn't view any reaction, sir. representative ford. all right. mr. specter. mr. kellerman, you said earlier that there were at least two additional shots. is there any area in your mind or possibility, as you recollect that situation, that there could have been more than two shots, or are you able to say with any certainty? mr. kellerman. i am going to say that i have, from the firecracker report and the two other shots that i know, those were three shots. but, mr. specter, if president kennedy had from all reports four wounds, governor connally three, there have got to be more than three shots, gentlemen. senator cooper. what is that answer? what did he say? mr. specter. will you repeat that, mr. kellerman? mr. kellerman. president kennedy had four wounds, two in the head and shoulder and the neck. governor connally, from our reports, had three. there have got to be more than three shots. representative ford. is that why you have described---- mr. kellerman. the flurry. representative ford. the noise as a flurry? mr. kellerman. that is right, sir. mr. specter. excuse me, do you have any independent recollection, mr. kellerman, of the number of shots, aside from the inference that you make as to how many points of wounds there were? mr. kellerman. could you rephrase that, please? mr. specter. yes. you have drawn a conclusion, in effect, by saying that there were four wounds for the president and three wounds for the governor; and from that, you say there must have been more than three shots in your opinion or your view. but my question is: do you have any current recollection of having heard more than three shots? mr. kellerman. no. i don't. i will have to say "no." senator cooper. has that been your recollection from the very time of the shooting? mr. kellerman. no, sir; it has been my opinion. senator cooper. not your opinion, but from the time of the shooting you think then that you heard only three shots, or did you---- mr. kellerman. yes. senator cooper. or did you ever think that you heard more than three? mr. kellerman. no, sir; i can't say that, sir. mr. specter. now, you referred to four wounds, mr. kellerman, realizing, of course, your characterization is only lay opinion. mr. kellerman. very true. mr. specter. would you tell us which wounds you made reference to by that statement, please? mr. kellerman. all right. can i keep the train going from the time we got to the hospital? mr. specter. yes, sir; do it in your own way just as you please. mr. kellerman. fine. as we arrived at the hospital i immediately got out of the car. our followup car is in back of us, as you will recall. i yelled to the agents, "get in"--"go get us two stretchers on wheels." in the meantime in a matter of seconds--i don't know how they got out so fast--i turned right around to the back door and opened it. by this time mrs. connally had raised up, and the governor is lying in her lap, face up. his eyes are open and he is looking at me, and i am fairly sure he is alive. by this time i noticed the two stretchers coming out of the emergency room, and i said to the governor, i said, "governor, don't worry; everything is going to be all right." and he nodded his head, which i was fairly convinced that that man was alive. by this time the stretcher is there. i get inside on one side of him, and special agent hill on the other. somebody is holding his feet, and we remove the governor and put him on the stretcher and they take him in. we then get in and help mrs. connally out. our next move is to get mrs. kennedy off from the seat, which was a little difficult, but she was removed. then mr. hill removed his coat and laid it over the president's face and shoulder. he and i among two other people--i don't know--we lifted up the president and put him on a stretcher and followed him right into the emergency room. gentlemen, this emergency room is a, it looks like a, checkerboard; it has a walkway down the center and a crossway and there are rooms on each side. president kennedy was put into the one on the right, governor connally across on the left. and as we pushed the wheelchair in--we pushed the stretcher inside, the medical people just seemed to form right in, right there, and i walked around him and i wanted to look at this man's face, they had him face up. senator cooper. the president? mr. kellerman. the president; i am sorry. i did not see any wounds in that man's face. mr. specter. indicating with your hand at that moment the front part of his face? mr. kellerman. right, sir. mr. specter. may i interrupt you just to ask whether you had any view---- mr. kellerman. surely. mr. specter. of the rear part of his head? mr. kellerman. i did not, sir. mr. specter. what was the rearmost or uppermost portion of president kennedy's head which you could observe at that time? mr. kellerman. it was the hairline to the ear, sir. mr. specter. proceed. mr. kellerman. having all the medical people in there, my business is left in their hands. so i left. mrs. kennedy, incidentally, was still in there. mr. specter. in where, sir? mr. kellerman. in the emergency room with him. which after a few minutes they convinced her to leave, and she sat outside the room while they were working over the president. i walked into this center area of this emergency room--and i am looking for a telephone--which there is a little doctor's office and i walked inside, and i am alone at that time, except one medic who was in there. there are two phones and i said, "can i use either one of these phones to get outside?" and he said, "yes; just pick one up." by this time mr. lawson enters and also mr. hill. i asked mr. lawson for the telephone number of the dallas white house switchboard. he immediately has it and i said to mr. hill, "will you dial it, please?" by that time a medic comes into the room from president kennedy's section and he asks if anybody knows the blood type of the president--president kennedy. we all carry it. i produce mine, and that is what i believe they used; i am not sure. by this time the connection is made with the white house operator in dallas, and i took the phone, identified myself, and i said, "give me washington. please don't pull this line; let's leave it open." i got the washington operator and i said, identified myself, and i said, "give me mr. behn." mr. behn was in the office at the time, and i said--his name is gerald behn--and i said, "gerry, we have had an incident here in dallas. the president, the governor have been shot. we are in the emergency room of the parkland memorial hospital." i said, "mark down the time." of course, since that time until now we have disagreed on about minutes. i said it is : , which would be : dallas time. i am sorry--washington time. mr. specter. was that at the time you were talking to mr. behn? mr. kellerman. to mr. behn; yes, sir. mr. specter. and your version is that it is : dallas time? mr. kellerman. : . he said it was : ; he told me the next day. mr. specter. may i interrupt you there for you to tell us how long after you arrived at the hospital did you make that telephone call to mr. behn, to the best of your recollection? mr. kellerman. three to five minutes. mr. specter. all right. the topic we are on now, mr. kellerman, is your own way of relating the description of the wounds, starting with four wounds on president kennedy. mr. kellerman. right; ok. mr. specter. proceed, then. mr. kellerman. i can eclipse an awful lot here and get into the morgue here in bethesda, because that is where i looked him over. mr. specter. i will come back and pick up some of the other detail. mr. kellerman. fine. mr. specter. but for the sequence at the moment, as it relates to your conclusions on the shots which you have already testified about---- mr. kellerman. ok. mr. specter. i would like to develop your understanding and your observations of the four wounds on president kennedy. mr. kellerman. ok. this all transpired in the morgue of the naval hospital in bethesda, sir. he had a large wound this size. mr. specter. indicating a circle with your finger of the diameter of inches; would that be approximately correct? mr. kellerman. yes, circular; yes, on this part of the head. mr. specter. indicating the rear portion of the head. mr. kellerman. yes. mr. specter. more to the right side of the head? mr. kellerman. right. this was removed. mr. specter. when you say, "this was removed," what do you mean by this? mr. kellerman. the skull part was removed. mr. specter. all right. representative ford. above the ear and back? mr. kellerman. to the left of the ear, sir, and a little high; yes. about right in here. mr. specter. when you say "removed," by that do you mean that it was absent when you saw him, or taken off by the doctor? mr. kellerman. it was absent when i saw him. mr. specter. fine. proceed. mr. kellerman. entry into this man's head was right below that wound, right here. mr. specter. indicating the bottom of the hairline immediately to the right of the ear about the lower third of the ear? mr. kellerman. right. but it was in the hairline, sir. mr. specter. in his hairline? mr. kellerman. yes, sir. mr. specter. near the end of his hairline? mr. kellerman. yes, sir. mr. specter. what was the size of that aperture? mr. kellerman. the little finger. mr. specter. indicating the diameter of the little finger. mr. kellerman. right. mr. specter. now, what was the position of that opening with respect to the portion of the skull which you have described as being removed or absent? mr. kellerman. well, i am going to have to describe it similar to this. let's say part of your skull is removed here; this is below. mr. specter. you have described a distance of approximately an inch and a half, inches, below. mr. kellerman. that is correct; about that, sir. mr. specter. all right. what other wounds, if any, did you notice on the president? mr. kellerman. the other wound that i noticed was on his shoulder. mr. specter. which shoulder. mr. kellerman. right shoulder. mr. specter. and was it--what was its general position with respect to the breadth of the back? mr. kellerman. right straight. mr. specter. no. upper shoulder, lower shoulder; how far below the lower neckline would you say? mr. kellerman. the upper neckline, sir, in that large muscle between the shoulder and the neck, just below it. mr. specter. what was the size of that opening? mr. kellerman. again about the size of a little finger. mr. specter. now, have you described three wounds which you have observed? mr. kellerman. that is three. the fourth one i will have to collaborate with--the medical people in dallas said that he had entry in the throat or an exit. mr. specter. now, you are indicating a part on the throat right underneath your tie as you sit there, the knot of your tie. mr. kellerman. yes, sir. mr. specter. who told you that? mr. kellerman. this comes from a report from dr. kemp clark. mr. specter. did you talk to dr. clark personally? mr. kellerman. i did not. this is a written report. mr. specter. this is a written report which you have read? mr. kellerman. yes; that is right. mr. specter. do you have any knowledge of that wound on the front side aside from the written report of dr. kemp clark? mr. kellerman. except that in the morgue it was very visible that they had incisioned him here to insert the tracheotomy that they performed on him. mr. specter. so with the operative procedures to perform a tracheotomy, was there anything, in your view, left of the original entry? mr. kellerman. no. mr. specter. entry or exit that you have described. mr. kellerman. no, sir. mr. specter. all you could see at that point was the operative procedure, the cutting of the surgeon's blade in dallas? mr. kellerman. that is right. senator cooper. you are saying this, then, that you did not see, yourself, at any time the mark of any wound in his neck front? mr. kellerman. when we took him into the hospital in dallas; that is right. senator cooper. what? mr. kellerman. that is right; when we took him in the hospital in dallas, i did not. senator cooper. did you ever see it? mr. kellerman. only after he was opened up in the morgue; yes, sir. senator cooper. you saw some indication or some mark of a wound in the front of his neck? mr. kellerman. senator, from the report of the doctor who worked on him in dallas, that he enlarged the incision here in his throat to perform that tracheotomy, and i believe in his own statement that that wound was there prior to this incision. senator cooper. i know, but i am asking---- mr. kellerman. i didn't see it, sir. senator cooper. what you saw yourself? mr. kellerman. no; i didn't. representative ford. was that because hill had thrown his coat over the president, or just didn't see the skin or the body at the time? mr. kellerman. no, sir. when i--that coat was thrown over, sir, to eliminate any gruesome pictures. representative ford. how far over that body? did it go over the head only or down the chest? mr. kellerman. no; the whole coat went all the way down to the waistline, sir. mr. specter. you saw the president's face, though, at a later time as you have described? mr. kellerman. yes, thank you. this i had lost track of, to help you out, mr. congressman. while he lay on the stretcher in that emergency room his collar and everything is up and i saw nothing in his face to indicate an injury, whether the shot had come through or not. he was clear. representative ford. but while he was on the stretcher in the emergency room you saw his face? mr. kellerman. that is right. representative ford. but he had his tie and his collar still---- mr. kellerman. still on. representative ford. still on? mr. kellerman. yes, sir. representative ford. you never saw his neck? mr. kellerman. no, sir. representative ford. at that time? mr. kellerman. at that time, i did not observe him. representative ford. the only time you saw him was later at the morgue? mr. kellerman. very much, sir. mr. specter. did you observe any blood on the portion of his body in the neck area or anyplace in the front of his body? mr. kellerman. i don't recall any. mr. specter. did you observe any hole in the clothing of the president on the front part, in the shirt or tie area? mr. kellerman. no, sir. mr. specter. from your observation of the wound which you observed in the morgue which you have described as a tracheotomy, would that have been above or below the shirtline when the president was clothed? mr. kellerman. it would have been below the shirtline, sir. mr. specter. now, have you described all of the wounds of the president to which you have referred? mr. kellerman. yes, sir. mr. specter. will you describe the three wounds which i believe you said governor connally sustained? mr. kellerman. i am going to refer to the medical report on governor connally, wherein they said one wound was in his right back---- mr. specter. indicating the upper shoulder area? mr. kellerman. yes, sir. one went through his wrist. mr. specter. indicating the right wrist. mr. kellerman. i am using the numbers, and he was--a missile went into his thigh somewhere. mr. specter. do you know anything about governor connally's wounds aside from what you read in the medical report? mr. kellerman. no; not personally. mr. specter. do you have any independent knowledge of which wrist and which thigh, aside from what you read in the medical reports themselves? mr. kellerman. yes, sir; i do, i talked to the governor several times later, and it is the right wrist, sir. mr. specter. it is the right wrist? mr. kellerman. yes, sir. mr. specter. and which thigh? mr. kellerman. it would be the left one. representative ford. is this a good point for a recess? mr. specter. this is fine. representative ford. we will take a -minute break. (short recess.) representative ford. the commission will resume, and will you proceed, mr. specter, please? mr. specter. yes sir. one of your last answers was that the position of the wounds on governor connally was ascertained from a conversation between you and governor connally, as well as from the medical reports themselves. is that correct? mr. kellerman. no; it is really not. mr. specter. then tell us what your basis is for your testimony on governor connally's wounds. mr. kellerman. i have never conversed with the governor as to his other wounds outside of his wrist. your medical report on governor connally which indicate the shoulder wound, wrist, and in the thigh. mr. specter. when did you have occasion to talk to him about his wrist wound? mr. kellerman. over the holidays in texas, sir. mr. specter. the christmas holidays? mr. kellerman. yes, sir. mr. specter. have you now told us everything you know, either from conversations or reports, about the wounds of governor connally? mr. kellerman. that is right; yes, sir. mr. specter. all right. were you able to observe at the time of the shooting and immediately thereafter, as governor connally went into the hospital, any of his specific wounds? mr. kellerman. only of the--i am presuming now of the hand because, when he was lying, he had it across his stomach here, and it was rather bloody. mr. specter. and was it the hand that was bloody, the stomach, or both? mr. kellerman. i would say so right now; yes. mr. specter. which? mr. kellerman. the hand. mr. specter. was the stomach bloody at all? mr. kellerman. not that i remember. mr. specter. do you have anything to add, mr. kellerman, on the total number of wounds in relationship to your view that there were more than three shots? mr. kellerman. well, let's consider the vehicle. mr. specter. fine. what about the vehicle would you consider relevant in this regard? mr. kellerman. the windshield itself, which i observed a day or two after the funeral here, had been hit by a piece of this missile or missiles, whatever it is, shell. mr. specter. while you are referring to the windshield, permit me to hand you a photograph marked commission exhibit and ask if you can tell us what that photograph depicts? mr. kellerman. this photograph is the windshield of the presidential special automobile that we used in dallas on november . and it depicts a hit by some instrument on the metal railing that covers the windshield. mr. specter. in what position is the hit on that metal railing? mr. kellerman. directly to the right of the mirror. mr. specter. is that on the top of the windshield? mr. kellerman. that is on the top of the windshield. i am sorry; this is not the windshield itself; this is the top of the vehicle. this is the framework. mr. specter. would you draw a red arrow with the pen that you have to the mark which you have just described? (mr. kellerman marked the photograph.) mr. specter. now, when did you first observe that indentation? mr. kellerman. this was observed a day or two after the funeral, which funeral was the th of november; this would be upward of the th. mr. specter. where was the automobile at the time you observed that indentation? mr. kellerman. at the white house garage, sir. mr. specter. was the windshield in the automobile at that time? mr. kellerman. yes, sir; it was in the automobile. mr. specter. did you observe or notice that indentation in the windshield when you were in dallas after the shooting occurred? mr. kellerman. no, sir. mr. specter. did you observe or notice that indentation before the shooting occurred? mr. kellerman. no, sir. mr. specter. are you able to state positively whether or not that indentation was present before the shooting? mr. kellerman. no, sir. mr. specter. so that you observed it on the first occasion when you saw the car in the white house garage on or about november ; is that correct? mr. kellerman. that is correct, sir. mr. specter. the indentation could conceivably have been present before the shooting? mr. kellerman. it could have; yes. mr. specter. but you didn't observe it before the shooting? mr. kellerman. i did not. mr. specter. and did you not observe it in dallas after the shooting? mr. kellerman. that is right; i did not. mr. specter. did you have any occasion to examine closely the windshield area after the assassination in dallas? mr. kellerman. no, sir. mr. specter. did you have any occasion to examine closely the windshield at any time after the assassination until you saw the car in the garage on or about november ? mr. kellerman. no, sir; i have not. mr. specter. would you describe for the record where that indentation occurs or is placed? mr. kellerman. this indentation is placed on the metal-bar framework which is across the top of the windshield. the indentation is directly to the right of the mirror holder. mr. specter. is that on the inside or the outside of the car? mr. kellerman. this is on the inside of the car. representative ford. what prompted you to make that investigation on or about november ? mr. kellerman. first, mr. congressman, i wanted to look this car over for--let me go back a little bit. when this car was checked over that night for its return to washington, i was informed the following day of the pieces of these missiles that were found in the front seat, and i believe aside from the skull, that was in the rear seat, i couldn't conceive even from elevation how this shot hit president kennedy like it did. i wanted to view this vehicle, whether this was a slant blow off the car, whether it hit the car first and then hit him, or what other marks are on this vehicle, and that is what prompted me to go around and check it over myself. representative ford. had anybody told you of this indentation prior to your own personal investigation? mr. kellerman. not of the windshield; no, sir. representative ford. you were the first one to find this indentation? mr. kellerman. i believe i am the first one who noticed this thing up on the bar. representative ford. that is what i meant. mr. kellerman. yes, sir. representative ford. you are the first one to notice this particular indentation? mr. kellerman. yes; i believe i am, sir. representative ford. all right. mr. specter. did you have occasion to examine the windshield or the framework closely before the assassination, either in dallas or in washington? mr. kellerman. no; i honestly didn't. mr. specter. mr. chairman, i move for the admission to evidence of exhibit no. . representative ford. it will be so admitted. (the document referred to, heretofore marked commission exhibit no. for identification, was received in evidence.) mr. specter. now i hand to mr. kellerman, through the chairman, commission exhibit no. , and ask you to describe what this picture represents? mr. kellerman. this picture represents the windshield of the president's special automobile as we are looking into it. this is an outside photo. my reason for this is that on inspection there is a--the windshield has been struck by an instrument and it has been cracked. this crack is opposite the mirror facing the driver would be toward the driver, to the right of the mirror, and---- mr. specter. the photograph, exhibit , is from the outside of the car front looking toward the car; correct? mr. kellerman. yes, sir. mr. specter. what mark, if any, appears in the photograph on the windshield itself? mr. kellerman. there is the cracked windshield located to the right of the mirror as you look into the automobile. mr. specter. that would be on the driver's side, as you previously stated? mr. kellerman. yes, sir; on the driver's side of the vehicle. mr. specter. now, is this picture an accurate representation of the appearance of the windshield at some time when you observed the windshield? mr. kellerman. this windshield i observed on this same day. mr. specter. on or about november , ? mr. kellerman. that is correct. mr. specter. does that picture accurately represent what the windshield looked like on that day when you observed it? mr. kellerman. yes, sir; it is. mr. specter. did you observe any crack in the windshield as the president's automobile was being driven from the point of assassination to the hospital? mr. kellerman. i did not. mr. specter. did you observe it at any time prior to the time you saw the automobile in the white house garage on or before november ? mr. kellerman. i did not, sir. mr. specter. did you have any occasion to examine closely the windshield after the time of the shooting up until the time you saw it in the white house garage? mr. kellerman. no, sir. mr. specter. now, at the time of your examination of the windshield in the white house garage, did you feel the windshield? mr. kellerman. on the day that i visited the white house garage and checked this car over for my own personal reasons, and this windshield crack was pointed out to me, i did---- mr. specter. when you say it was pointed out to you, by whom? mr. kellerman. there were other people in the garage, mr. specter, like mr. kinney, i believe was there at the time, special agent henry rybka was the other person. mr. specter. was it sufficiently prominent without having to have it pointed out specially? mr. kellerman. oh, yes; very much. and i felt this windshield both inwardly and outwardly to determine first if there was something that was struck from the back of us or--and i was satisfied that it was. mr. specter. when you say struck from in back of you, do you mean on the inside or outside of the windshield? mr. kellerman. inside, sir. mr. specter. inside of the car? mr. kellerman. right. mr. specter. did you have occasion to feel the outside of the windshield? mr. kellerman. i did on that day; yes, sir. mr. specter. what did you feel, if anything? mr. kellerman. not a thing; it was real smooth. mr. specter. did you have occasion to feel the inside of the windshield? mr. kellerman. i did. mr. specter. how did that feel to you? mr. kellerman. my comparison was that the broken glass, broken windshield, there was enough little roughness in there from the cracks and split that i was positive, or it was my belief, that whatever hit it came into the inside of the car. mr. specter. i move for the admission into evidence of exhibit no. . representative ford. it will be so admitted. (the document referred to, heretofore marked commission exhibit no. for identification, was received in evidence.) mr. specter. i now call the attention of the commission to exhibit no. , which is the windshield itself which, as the commission may observe, is present in the hearing room. now, with reference to exhibit no. , which is a marking placed over a glass object, mr. kellerman, can you describe for the commission what that is? mr. kellerman. yes; this windshield, which has since been removed from the vehicle, at the time i first viewed it, this area marked in here was all that was cracked. these are later splints. mr. specter. before you proceed, mr. kellerman, do you have knowledge as to the general removal procedure during which this windshield was taken from the president's car? mr. kellerman. i believe i do not. however, i believe mr. greer would be able to identify it better than i, on the removal side. mr. specter. would you describe the condition of the windshield in its present state as we are viewing it here this morning? mr. kellerman. the windshield this morning has--has been hit by some object with sufficient force---- mr. specter. perhaps we ought to start with the point of impact, mr. kellerman. first, are you able to positively identify this as the windshield from the president's automobile? mr. kellerman. yes, sir; i would say it was, sir. mr. specter. is this the same windshield as depicted in exhibits and ? mr. kellerman. yes, sir. mr. specter. all right. now, starting with the principal point of impact, where does that exist on this windshield? mr. kellerman. the principal point of impact is located to the left of the mirror, to the right above the driver's head, and to the right of his, i am going to say, view line. mr. specter. as we view the windshield at this time, state whether or not there are spidering lines which have emanated from that point which you have described as the principal point of impact? mr. kellerman. the spidering lines which extend in three different directions--you are speaking of the large ones or the others? mr. specter. well, i want to put on this record all of the spidering lines which exist here. mr. kellerman. ok; the spidering lines which are in this encircled area reflect, in my opinion, that when the instrument hit this glass it shattered in half a dozen different ways. mr. specter. well now, with respect to the cracks themselves, is there a crack which goes in a generally upwardly direction slanting off in the general direction of the driver? mr. kellerman. in the center of this, the impact of the center of this scratch, one goes directly to the top of the windshield. mr. specter. on that line itself, is there a further splintering off of that line at another point? mr. kellerman. it then continues on a small leg, a straight leg, about inches from the original direction. mr. specter. and is there a change of direction at that point, or a bifurcation, dividing it into two parts? mr. kellerman. no. mr. specter. well, you have described in a generally upwardly direction of about inches? mr. kellerman. yes. mr. specter. and is there not a crack which then extends all the way to the top of the windshield moving, in the direction of the left side of the windshield from the driver facing it? mr. kellerman. that is right. there is a complete crack from this so-called cutoff to the top right of the windshield right above the view line of the driver. mr. specter. taking that from a compass reading, would that be in a generally northeasterly direction? mr. kellerman. yes, sir; northeasterly. mr. specter. all right. from a point inches from the center crack, which we described as the principal point of impact, then, does there form a point of crack in a v-direction with the line you have already described? mr. kellerman. yes; there does. there is a small splint, about inches, that heads directly north off from this splinter that goes in a northeasterly direction. mr. specter. all right. now, moving in a clockwise direction. mr. kellerman. in a clockwise direction. mr. specter. what crack do you observe, if any? mr. kellerman. i next observe on the eastward side of this center crack a splint of about inches long, which then makes a sharp veer to the southeast to the bottom of the windshield. mr. specter. now, moving further in a clockwise direction, what crack do you next observe emanating from the central point of impact? mr. kellerman. the next crack from the central point of impact extends down about inches, to the southeast, and then veers to a sharp southeast to the bottom of the windshield. mr. specter. now, moving further in a clockwise direction. mr. kellerman. from this point---- mr. specter. let's continue to move from the central point of impact to finish up what divergent cracks there are from the central point of impact. is there one other? mr. kellerman. there is one other point left. this is completely in a westerly direction about inches from the center of impact, which then veers to the northwest to the top of the windshield. mr. specter. are there other cracks in the windshield? mr. kellerman. there is one other splint, which is from the southeasterly leg---- mr. specter. that would be southwesterly leg. mr. kellerman. southwesterly leg--i am sorry--that drops to within an inch of the bottom of the windshield, whereby another splint travels in a northwesterly direction to about halfway of the windshield. mr. specter. now, have you described all of the visible cracks in the windshield? mr. kellerman. that has completed it, sir. mr. specter. as you have viewed this windshield, have you looked at it from the outside looking in or the inside looking out? mr. kellerman. i have been looking from the outside looking in. mr. specter. where you would have been if you had been, say, on the front hood of the car when the windshield was in place on the automobile? mr. kellerman. i would have been--pardon? mr. specter. on the hood of the car? mr. kellerman. on the hood of the car this would have been facing me as it is sitting here today. mr. specter. have there been any measures taken to protect the outer edges of this windshield in its position here in the hearing room? mr. kellerman. yes. a form of protective tape has been placed around the entire windshield to protect it, to keep it intact. mr. specter. are there any differences in the cracks on the windshield today as it sits in our hearing room from its condition when you observed it on or about november , ? mr. kellerman. yes, sir. from the point of impact the four cracks that looked in the four directions were the only ones on this windshield. mr. specter. is there any marking in color or otherwise on that piece of the windshield? mr. kellerman. there has been a yellow crayon marking the circumference of these four cracks, apparently before the windshield was removed from the automobile. mr. specter. is that yellow or red? mr. kellerman. it is red. mr. specter. were the cracks present within the circumference of that marking present at the time you observed the windshield on or about november ? mr. kellerman. yes, sir. mr. specter. were any of the other marks present when you observed the windshield on or about november ? mr. kellerman. no, sir. mr. specter. would you at this time feel the outside of the windshield and describe what, if anything, you feel at the point of impact? mr. kellerman. the outside markings from the point of impact, the extended lines---- mr. specter. mr. kellerman. i would like for you at this time to actually touch the outside and tell me, first of all, if it is the same or if it differs in any way from the sense of feel which you noted when you touched it on or about november ? mr. kellerman. as i touch the outside on the impact, it would be the same as i noticed on the th of november. mr. specter. what do you notice, if anything? mr. kellerman. it is a smooth surface without any---- mr. specter. without any--finish your answer. mr. kellerman. on the inside. mr. specter. no; before. it is a smooth surface without any what? mr. kellerman. without any crack lines. mr. specter. on the outside? mr. kellerman. that can be felt. mr. specter. on the outside? mr. kellerman. that is right; on the outside of the windshield. mr. specter. feel the inside and tell us, first of all, whether it is the same or different from the way you touched it on november ? mr. kellerman. on november , when i felt the inside of this impact area, i was convinced that i could--that i felt an opening in one of these lines, which was indicative to me that the blow was struck from the inside of the car on this windshield. mr. specter. does it feel the same to you today as it did on or about november ? mr. kellerman. as a matter of fact, it feels rather smooth today. mr. specter. it feels somewhat differently today than it felt before? mr. kellerman. yes; it does. representative ford. could we ask when the red circle was placed on the windshield, if you know? mr. kellerman. i do not know. mr. specter. with respect to the shattering which existed on or about november , which is within the red circle, could that condition have existed on november after the assassination? mr. kellerman. absolutely not. i don't think so. mr. specter. what is the reason for your expressing your thought that it could not have existed? mr. kellerman. this automobile is never out of sight of any agent, or even a police officer, before it is used--used or afterward. let me clarify that. the agent that accompanied these cars to dallas was with the vehicles from the time they left washington aboard this plane. one of his many duties outside of keeping it, having this car run perfectly, is that all the equipment is in perfect condition. mr. specter. mr. kellerman, what you are saying, then, is there had been no crack in the windshield prior to the time of the shooting? mr. kellerman. that is correct. mr. specter. my next question is: did you observe any crack in the windshield after the shooting on november ? mr. kellerman. no. mr. specter. did you have any occasion to look for or examine for any crack in the windshield after the shooting? mr. kellerman. i had no occasion whatsoever. mr. specter. if the crack in the windshield had been as prominent as it was on or about november , , would you have observed it after the shooting on november ? mr. kellerman. no, sir; i don't think i would have. senator cooper. is it correct then to say that you didn't find any occasion to examine the windshield after you heard the shots? mr. kellerman. that is right, i did not have the opportunity. mr. specter. and after the president was removed from the automobile, did you ever go back and examine the car, including the windshield? mr. kellerman. not in dallas; no, sir. mr. specter. to be absolutely certain our record is straight on this point, when you observed this windshield on or about november , , was the windshield in or out of the car? mr. kellerman. it was in the car. this was the same day they were going to remove it. mr. specter. did they remove it later that day, to your knowledge? mr. kellerman. yes; they did, and the mechanics were there. mr. specter. were you there at the time this was removed? mr. kellerman. no, sir. mr. specter. but the mechanics had arrived preparatory to removing it? mr. kellerman. that is right. mr. specter. mr. kellerman, we intended to describe the windshield in detail prior to your mentioning it, but to go back to your train of thought, you had brought up the windshield in response to my question about whether you had told us everything that you had in mind when you expressed the view that there were more than three shots. now, remaining on the subject of the windshield, what fact about the windshield was important in your mind when you expressed the view that there must have been more than three shots? mr. kellerman. i may be a little--i am not ahead of myself in your investigation of this case, but i think with the evidence that you all have on the numbers, on the pieces of evidence that were found in the car, plus the fact that you have a missile that was received from dallas, from one of the stretchers, plus the fact of the missile that, to my knowledge, hasn't been removed from governor connally--it may have, i don't know--count up to more than three to me, gentlemen. mr. specter. all right; fine. but focusing just a moment on the windshield in and of itself, is there any physical factor or characteristic of the windshield other than those already described for the record which has any bearing on your conclusion about the number of shots? mr. kellerman. no; it does not. mr. specter. now, moving on to the other pieces of evidence which you have just described, you referred to pieces of evidence in the car. what did you mean when you made that reference, sir? mr. kellerman. i have--i was told, although this is a hearsay thing---- mr. specter. for these purposes, please tell us whatever you are referring to, whatever its source, hearsay or not. mr. kellerman. okay; fine. that when they examined that vehicle that night, when it was brought back to washington, d.c., two pieces of a bullet or bullets were found on the passenger side on the floor of the front seat. mr. specter. did you observe those? mr. kellerman. no, sir. mr. specter. who told you that, or what report? mr. kellerman. mr. boring--floyd boring. mr. specter. who is mr. boring? mr. kellerman. he is also an assistant special agent in charge. mr. specter. is he currently with the secret service? mr. kellerman. he is currently with the secret service at the white house; yes. mr. specter. were those two pieces of bullet described with more particularity than you have mentioned? mr. kellerman. no; they were not. mr. specter. were they described as fragments of bullets as distinguished from whole bullets? mr. kellerman. right, sir. mr. specter. but do you have any information as to the size of the fragments? mr. kellerman. no; i do not. mr. specter. are there any other pieces of evidence in the car that you were referring to there? mr. kellerman. the only other piece of evidence in the car was president kennedy's skull. mr. specter. all right. do you know what was done with those fragments that mr. boring told you about? mr. kellerman. no; i don't. mr. specter. do you know whether or not those were turned over to the fbi? mr. kellerman. i would say they were probably turned over to the fbi; yes, sir. mr. specter. and why would you say they probably were? mr. kellerman. because they were assigned to going over the car. mr. specter. was it their procedure to turn over whatever they found to the fbi? mr. kellerman. oh, yes. mr. specter. now, is there anything special in the nature of the skull which you just mentioned which would have any bearing on the number of shots fired in this assassination? mr. kellerman. no, but it would be one shell, one shot. mr. specter. that would be your conclusion? mr. kellerman. that would be my conclusion. mr. specter. that it would take one shot to have separated that portion of skull? mr. kellerman. yes, sir. mr. specter. you mentioned a missile found on a stretcher in dallas. will you elaborate on what you were referring to there? mr. kellerman. this was given, i believe, in your statements there, to a special agent johnsen. i haven't seen this missile. mr. specter. are you referring there to the missile which was found on the stretcher and to the sequence of events from which it was traced back to one of the two victims of this shooting? mr. kellerman. yes, sir. mr. specter. do you have any more knowledge about that other than that which you have already mentioned? mr. kellerman. no; i do not. mr. specter. you mentioned a missile which was not removed from governor connally. specifically, what did you refer to there? mr. kellerman. there was in the early--this was on the day in parkland memorial hospital, and this information comes from dr. george burkley, the president's physician, when, i believe, i asked him the condition of governor connally, and have they removed the bullet from him. mr. specter. what did dr. burkley say? mr. kellerman. dr. burkley said that to his knowledge he still has the bullet in him. mr. specter. and at what time on november was that? mr. kellerman. this was after we got into the hospital after the shooting, sir, between then and o'clock. mr. specter. so that the operation on governor connally had not been completed at that point? mr. kellerman. that is correct, sir. mr. specter. do you have any additional knowledge about any bullet in governor connally? mr. kellerman. i do not. mr. specter. have you now told us about all of the facts which you took into account in your conclusion that there were more than three shots? mr. kellerman. yes, sir. mr. specter. do you have anything to add, mr. kellerman, by way of explanation or elaboration, to tell us which might be helpful with respect to your conclusion based on all of these items which you have described to us that there were more than three shots? mr. kellerman. gentlemen, i think if you would view the films yourself you may come up with a little different answer. mr. specter. well, have you viewed the films, mr. kellerman? mr. kellerman. i have; yes, sir. mr. specter. was there something special in your viewing of the films which led you to believe that there were more than three shots? mr. kellerman. no; it doesn't point out more than three shots, sir. mr. specter. which films are you referring to? mr. kellerman. these are the colored ones that were taken on the right side. mr. specter. taken by mr. abraham zapruder? mr. kellerman. i don't know. mr. specter. you are not familiar with the photographer? mr. kellerman. no; i am not. mr. specter. well, can you describe the view you say is from the right-hand side of the automobile? mr. kellerman. that is right. mr. specter. so that would be on the side of the road where the texas school book depository building was? mr. kellerman. yes, sir. mr. specter. and approximately where did those pictures begin and end? mr. kellerman. these pictures began as we turned off houston street onto elm. mr. specter. and where did they end? mr. kellerman. as we are, just before we are, going into the viaduct. mr. specter. were those black and white or in color? mr. kellerman. no; they were colored. mr. specter. have you seen any other films of the assassination? mr. kellerman. yes; i saw a black-and-white, but i didn't--i saw a black-and-white film. however, i didn't get enough out of it there to---- mr. specter. before proceeding any further, i would like to move for the introduction in evidence of exhibit . representative ford. it is approved. (the windshield referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification and was received in evidence.) mr. specter. do you have anything at all to add which you think might be helpful, mr. kellerman, on the question of how many shots were fired, or have you told us everything you have in mind on that question? mr. kellerman. i believe i have, mr. specter. senator cooper. what was the name of the special agent driving the car--the president's car? mr. kellerman. william greer. senator cooper. he was the one to whom you spoke when you heard the report? mr. kellerman. yes, sir. senator cooper. has he ever expressed any opinion to you as to the number of shots that were fired? mr. kellerman. no, sir. i think we are all of the opinion, senator, that we know of three. mr. specter. mr. kellerman, referring to commission exhibit no. , will you pinpoint as precisely as you can on that aerial shot, aerial picture, where the president's car was at the time of the first shot? and mark that, if you would, please, with an "x" in red pencil. mr. kellerman. my guess would be right in here, sir. mr. specter. now, would you mark as closely as you can where the president's car was at the time of the second shot and mark that with a "y" in red. (mr. kellerman marking the picture.) mr. specter. now, you have marked the cars being in approximately the middle of the road; is that accurate, as you recollect it? mr. kellerman. that is the general procedure, mr. specter; they were traveling in the center of the road. mr. specter. now, with respect to the time of the third shot, would your marking be any different from the "y" position? mr. kellerman. no; it would not. mr. specter. now, from the time of the shooting until the time the automobile arrived at parkland hospital, did anyone in the president's car say anything that you have not already told us about? mr. kellerman. no, sir. mr. specter. mr. kellerman, there is a report from the federal bureau of investigation designated "bureau file no. "--i believe there is an "s", although it is somewhat illegible on my copy--"s , report of special agent robert p. gemberling," dated december , , which refers to an interview of you by special agent francis x. o'neill, jr., and james w. sibert, in which the following is set forth: "he"--and this obviously refers to you--"advised that he heard a shot and immediately turned around looking past governor connally who was seated directly in back of him, to the president. he observed the president slumped forward and heard him say 'get me to a hospital.' mr. kellerman then heard mrs. kennedy say, 'oh, no,' as the president leaned toward her." that is the end of the quotation. my question is: did you hear him; did you hear president kennedy say, "get me to a hospital"? mr. kellerman. no, sir. mr. specter. did you hear mrs. kennedy say, "oh, no"? mr. kellerman. no, sir. mr. specter. do you have any knowledge or explanation as to why you would have been so quoted in the report of the fbi? mr. kellerman. when these two gentlemen talked to me, i don't know where they got those quotes, because the only two things that i told them, they were interested in what i heard from the people in the back seat, and one said "my god, i have been hit," which was president kennedy, and mrs. kennedy said, "what are they doing to you?" mr. specter. you were interviewed, however, by mr. o'neill and mr. sibert on november , ? mr. kellerman. november what? mr. specter. november . mr. kellerman. no. november is when they were in the morgue with me. they interviewed me in the office that--it was around the th. this was after the funeral. mr. specter. did they have any conversation with you about these events in the morgue? mr. kellerman. not that i recall, sir. mr. specter. did you have a discussion with either of those gentlemen about anything while you were at the morgue on november ? mr. kellerman. the only thing i can recall discussionwise--i just forget which one it was, one of the two--this was before we even knew that a shell had been found from the hole in the president's shoulder. we couldn't determine what happened to it. they couldn't find it in the morgue; they couldn't find any leeway as to whatever happened to the shell when it hit the president's shoulder; where did it go. so our contention was that while he was on the stretcher in dallas, and the neurosurgeon was working over him no doubt with pressure on the heart, this thing worked itself out. mr. specter. when you say "our contention," what do you mean by that? mr. kellerman. one of these agents--i forget which one it was; it could have been sibert or o'neill, but i am not sure. mr. specter. did what? mr. kellerman. we--our discussion or my discussion. mr. specter. you had a discussion and when you say "our contention" by that do you mean that was the conclusion you came to? mr. kellerman. conclusion--that is right, sir--as to where this bullet went into the shoulder and where did it go. mr. specter. while you are on that subject, was there any conversation at the time of the autopsy on that matter itself? mr. kellerman. very much so. mr. specter. would you relate to the commission the nature of that conversation and the parties to it? mr. kellerman. there were three gentlemen who were performing this autopsy. a colonel finck--during the examination of the president, from the hole that was in his shoulder, and with a probe, and we were standing right alongside of him, he is probing inside the shoulder with his instrument and i said, "colonel, where did it go?" he said, "there are no lanes for an outlet of this entry in this man's shoulder." mr. specter. did you say anything in response to that? mr. kellerman. i said, "colonel, would it have been possible that while he was on the stretcher in dallas that it works itself out?" and he said, "yes." mr. specter. was there any additional conversation between you and colonel finck at that time? mr. kellerman. not on that point; no, sir; not on that point. mr. specter. was there any conversation of any sort between you and colonel finck which would be helpful to us here? mr. kellerman. well, from humes, who was the other gentleman out there, from the entry of the skull, from this hole here. mr. specter. you are now referring to the hole which you describe being below the missing part of the skull? mr. kellerman. yes, sir; it was confirmed that the entry of the shell here went right through the top and removed that piece of the skull. mr. specter. and who confirmed that? mr. kellerman. one of the three gentlemen; i don't recall. mr. specter. you don't recall which one, but it was one of the three doctors doing the autopsy? mr. kellerman. that is right. mr. specter. so you are saying it confirmed that the hole that was below the piece of skull that was removed, was the point of entry of the one bullet which then passed up through the head and took off the skull? mr. kellerman. right, sir. that is correct. mr. specter. then that was all done by one bullet, based on what you are telling us at this moment? mr. kellerman. that is right. mr. specter. from the confirmation that one of the three doctors made? mr. kellerman. yes, sir. mr. specter. now, was there any other conversation between you and colonel finck or commander humes---- mr. kellerman. no. mr. specter. at that time, which was important on the subject we are discussing? mr. kellerman. actually, from all the x-rays that were taken, and we viewed them all together; when i say "we," i am saying the medical people who were in the morgue at the time, the two bureau agents, myself, and also mr. greer, who was in there with me, naturally, they were looking for pieces of fragmentation of this bullet. there was none; only one piece to my knowledge. that was removed inside above the eye, the right eye. mr. specter. you have now told us all about the conversations between you and colonel finck and commander humes and anyone else at the autopsy which are important on the positions of the hole and the wounds in the head? mr. kellerman. right, sir. mr. specter. did you have any other conversation with either special agent o'neill or special agent sibert of the fbi on november , , other than your conversations about the wounds on president kennedy? mr. kellerman. no. mr. specter. mr. kellerman, while we are discussing this in relationship to your conversations with special agents o'neill and sibert, were there any other comments made by anybody else present at the autopsy about the path of the bullet into mr. kennedy's back, relating to whether there was any point of exit or anything of that sort? mr. kellerman. colonel finck did all the talking, sir. he was the only one. mr. specter. now, have you told us everything colonel finck said about that subject? mr. kellerman. very much so; yes, sir. mr. specter. so that there is nothing that was said on that subject other than what you have already told us about? mr. kellerman. no; that is right. mr. specter. mr. kellerman, i have read to you a part of what special agents o'neill and sibert have attributed to you in an interview which they have written about on november , . referring to that in the portion which i have read to you and which i will reread, i want you to direct your attention to the issue about which way you turned. the report states, "he advised he heard a shot and immediately turned around looking past governor connally who was seated directly in back of him to the president." now, did that describe a turn to the right or to the left? this is a difficult question. let me interject one thing. we are presupposing here, based on your testimony, that you did not discuss with special agents o'neill or sibert these specific events on november , to the best of your recollection as we sit here today. mr. kellerman. that is right. mr. specter. so that the question really goes to a situation where perhaps they have an inaccurate day or your recollection is inaccurate as to some of the things you might have told them. so, my prefatory question would be whether that is an accurate statement and is something you told them at some time. mr. kellerman. i don't believe i did. i think i will stand on my original statement. representative ford. the original statement you made here today? mr. kellerman. yes, sir; very much. mr. specter. so that the statement i just read to you, so far as your best---- mr. kellerman. i can't---- mr. specter. so far as your best testimony is at this time, it was simply not made by you on november ? mr. kellerman. that is right, sir. mr. specter. all right, now. was that statement i just read to you, the short one about your turn, to the best of your recollection at this moment, did you ever make that statement to special agents o'neill and/or sibert? mr. kellerman. mr. specter, everybody i have talked to i have always turned to the right when i first heard the noise. i turned to my left to view the people in my back seat because it is a more comfortable position. so i don't think the turning is correct, sir. mr. specter. would you say the report is incorrect? mr. kellerman. that is right. representative ford. may i ask--you have viewed these colored motion pictures which were taken during the assassination. have you looked at those to see what your own actions were during this period of time? mr. kellerman. yes, sir. representative ford. do they coincide with what you have testified to here today? mr. kellerman. they certainly do. mr. specter. i now hand you a photograph marked commission exhibit no. , and ask you if you can tell us what that picture represents? mr. kellerman. yes, sir; this was the rear seat of the president's car, sir, after all the occupants were removed. mr. specter. and when did the rear seat of the president's car look like the picture ? mr. kellerman. after all the occupants were removed on the d of november. mr. specter. when the car was parked at parkland hospital? mr. kellerman. i don't know where this picture was taken, sir. this could have been taken in the white house garage. mr. specter. yes; but aside from where the picture was taken, is that the way the car looked at the time it was at parkland hospital after president kennedy and governor connally were removed from the car? mr. kellerman. yes, sir. mr. specter. will you describe for the written record very briefly what this picture shows? mr. kellerman. the picture shows the complete rear seat of the presidential limousine. mr. specter. what, if anything, is on the rear seat? mr. kellerman. on the seat part of this car is splattered with blood; there are a few petals of flowers, and the back seat cushion part is pretty well bloodied up. mr. specter. i move for the introduction in evidence of commission exhibit no. . representative ford. so admitted. (the photograph referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification, and received in evidence.) mr. specter. i now hand you, through the chairman, commission exhibit no. , move its admission into evidence, and ask you to tell us what this depicts. mr. kellerman. this is the same presidential vehicle after the occupants have been removed from the rear seat. it shows the--a goodly amount of blood that had remained on the cushion and back part of the seat and also little flower petals. mr. specter. is exhibit no. an accurate representation of the way the rear seat of the president's automobile looked after---- mr. kellerman. yes, sir. mr. specter. after president kennedy and governor connally were removed to parkland hospital. mr. kellerman. yes, sir; it is. mr. specter. you have described in answers to previous questions what occurred upon the arrival at parkland of the president's automobile. what action, if any, did you take immediately after president kennedy and governor connally were taken into the hospital? mr. kellerman. i believe we had got to the point where i had made this phone call to washington to alert these people back here of the incident. mr. specter. and proceeding from that point? mr. kellerman. from this point, the agents who were in this followup car had joined me in the emergency room. they took up security posts at entrance into the emergency room to keep it clear of all people except medical people. the only people allowed in there would be workers. after this was done, special agent kinney came to me and asked permission to remove the president's car and our followup car to the airport, to load it aboard this aircraft for shipment to washington, and i said, "yes." at that time the next move was special agent warren taylor, who was assigned to the then vice president johnson, came to me and he said, "mr. johnson wants to talk to you." so, i followed him into this room that they had the johnson party in. he asked me the condition of president kennedy, which i told him that president kennedy is still in the emergency room, his condition is serious. he then said, "you let me know of any developments." i then returned to the emergency room. by that time another shift of agents, who were at the trade mart on duty for prior to our arrival, reported into the emergency room. this is what is called as our afternoon shift, the to . mr. roberts, whose group was on the followup car in the motorcade through dallas, was the -to- shift. the -to- shift then was under the supervision of mr. stewart stout. i then instructed mr. roberts to take his shift, which were the day people, and join special agent rufus youngblood and stay with vice president johnson. mr. specter. how many agents were they to take with them? mr. kellerman. they took the entire followup car, which would mean that they had roberts, ready, bennett, mcintyre; those four. mr. specter. do you know where they went or what specifically they did by way of establishing security for vice president johnson? mr. kellerman. no; i really don't. mr. specter. what was your next activity? mr. kellerman. my next move, then, my next part in this was--by this time it was after o'clock--i am trying to pinpoint time--after , because dr. burkley said that the president had died; it was after o'clock. by this time other people who were in with mr. kennedy, such as his staff--i am speaking of mr. o'donnell, mr. powers, i believe larry o'brien--through them, and i believe mr. hill, they had obtained a casket from one of the funeral people in town. mr. specter. where had mrs. kennedy been during this time? mr. kellerman. mrs. kennedy was right outside the door to the emergency room. mr. specter. how long, if at all, was she inside the emergency room with president kennedy? mr. kellerman. this i can't truly answer. however, i should say that, as for the casket being brought into the hospital, another gentleman came into this little doctor's room, his name i don't recall, but he represented himself to be from the health department or commission, some form. he said to me, he said, "there has been a homicide here, you won't be able to remove the body. we will have to take it down there to the mortuary and have an autopsy." i said, "no, we are not." and he said, "we have a law here whereby you have to comply with it." with that dr. burkley walked in, and i said, "doctor, this man is from some health unit in town. he tells me we can't remove this body." the doctor became a little enraged; he said, "we are removing it." he said, "this is the president of the united states and there should be some consideration in an event like this." and i told this gentleman, i said, "you are going to have to come up with something a little stronger than you to give me the law that this body can't be removed." so, he frantically called everybody he could think of and he hasn't got an answer; nobody is home. shortly he leaves this little room and it seems like a few minutes he is back and he has another gentleman with him, and he said, "this is"--the name escapes me--he said, "he is a judge here in dallas," and he said, "he will tell you whether you can remove this body or not." i said, "it doesn't make any difference. we are going to move it," and i said, "judge, do you know who i am?" and he said, "yes," and i said, "there must be something in your thinking here that we don't have to go through this agony; the family doesn't have to go through this. we will take care of the matter when we get back to washington." the poor man looked at me and he said, "i know who you are," and he said, "i can't help you out." i said, "all right, sir." but then i happened to look to the right and i can see the casket coming on rollers, and i just left the room and let it out through the emergency entrance and we got to the ambulance and put it in, shut the door after mrs. kennedy and general mchugh and clinton hill in the rear part of this ambulance. i am looking around for mr. greer and i don't spot him directly because i want to get out of here in a hurry, and i recognize agent berger and i said, "berger, you get in the front seat and drive and, mr. stout, you get in the middle and i will set on this side," and as we are leaving--mr. lawson, i should say, was in a police car that led us away from parkland memorial hospital. as we are leaving a gentleman taps on the driver's window and they roll it down and he says, "i will meet you at the mortuary." "yes, sir." we went to the airport, gentlemen. mr. specter. who said, "yes, sir"? mr. kellerman. i did, sir. we went to the airport. in the meantime, mr. johnson had been taken to the airplane. they had secured the airport; nobody was there. they had removed seats off the rear part of the plane so we could put the body and the casket in it. as we got to the airport the ramp was there; we opened the door, and we moved the casket out and walked it right up to the plane. mr. specter. was there any further difficulty of any sort---- mr. kellerman. no. mr. specter. imposed by any texas officials on the removal of the body? mr. kellerman. no, sir. whatever happened to the hearse, i don't know. i never left the plane. mr. specter. did you observe---- mr. kellerman. we left the hospital; we have a time on that; it is minutes after . it is about a -minute ride to the airplane. mr. specter. on the question of timing, pinning down these times as best we can, how long did it take you to get from the shooting incident to the time you arrived at parkland, based on your best estimates? mr. kellerman. mr. specter, it seemed like hours, but we flew there, i honestly don't know. i can't really tell you. mr. specter. what is the best estimate of the speed of your vehicle en route from the shooting to the hospital? mr. kellerman. i don't know. senator cooper. let the record show that congressman ford has to go to his official duties in the house and that i, senator cooper, am now acting as chairman. (at this point, representative ford left the hearing room.) senator cooper. go ahead. mr. specter. moving ahead, then, on to the sequences of time as best you can recollect them, mr. kellerman, at what time was it ascertained that the president had died and what was the basis of the pronouncement of death. mr. kellerman. that was on the death certificate, sir. mr. specter. did you learn at or about o'clock, while you were at parkland hospital, that he had died? mr. kellerman. i would think so. however, at that time let me say that i wasn't watching any clock too closely and this time was given to me by dr. burkley. mr. specter. then you have no independent recollection of time at parkland when the death was announced or pronounced? mr. kellerman. no. mr. specter. now, then, you have specified the time of departure from parkland hospital and en route back to love field at what, sir? mr. kellerman. we departed at minutes after from parkland. mr. specter. what time did you arrive at the president's plane? mr. kellerman. : . mr. specter. what were your next activities? mr. kellerman. our next time, we had waited until judge sarah hughes had arrived for the swearing-in ceremonies. mr. specter. what time did the swearing-in ceremonies occur? mr. kellerman. : p.m. mr. specter. and what time did the plane depart from dallas? mr. kellerman. we left at : . mr. specter. were you present during the swearing-in ceremonies? mr. kellerman. yes, sir. mr. specter. in a general way, tell us who else was present there, recognizing that you don't know all the people there. mr. kellerman. yes. president johnson, mrs. johnson, mrs. kennedy, malcolm kilduff. he was the press secretary for that trip. congressman thornberry, congressman thomas, marie fehmer, mrs. evelyn lincoln, jack valenti, bill moyers, special agent johns. there was another congressional man--i believe his name was congressman roberts--brooks; i am sorry; congressman brooks. the picture was taken by capt. cecil stoughton and myself. mr. specter. what time did the president's plane arrive back at the washington area? mr. kellerman. may i look at my notes, sir? mr. specter. yes, you may. identify for us, if you will, what notes you are referring to. mr. kellerman. : p.m. this is my report. mr. specter. let the record show that mr. kellerman has just referred to a four-page report dated november , , entitled "the assassination of president john f. kennedy on november , , at dallas, tex.," which is a copy of a report he made, three of the sheets being carbon copies, and one being a photostatic reproduction. so that our record may be complete, let the record show that this is the same report which mr. kellerman submitted to the secret service which was, in turn, submitted by the secret service to the commission, as one of the statements in exhibit , statement , which was furnished by the secret service to the commission as the report of the u.s. secret service on the assassination of president kennedy, under the exhibits section. i will return that to you. mr. kellerman. fine; thank you. mr. specter. what were your activities; specifically where did you land in the washington area? mr. kellerman. we landed at andrews air force base. mr. specter. what were your activities then, immediately after landing at andrews? mr. kellerman. while en route from dallas to washington, d.c., i had several telephone communications with my special agent in charge, gerald behn, concerning this, transportation for the people aboard the plane, an ambulance for the body of president kennedy, and my instructions. i was instructed to stay with the late president kennedy. aboard this plane were agents of the -to- shift which, as i mentioned earlier, was under the supervision of mr. stewart stout; a conference was held with mr. rufus youngblood, who was in charge of the johnson detail at that time. he was informed that he would take all the agents under mr. stout's supervision and they would remain with them for the remainder of the day. that i would have special agents hill, landis, greer, and o'leary. as we arrived at andrews air force base, arrangements were made prior to having a lift brought up to the rear end of the plane, whereby all the agents were requested by mrs. kennedy to carry this casket from the plane to the ambulance. it was put aboard this carrier; from there we took it from the carrier into the navy ambulance. mrs. kennedy rode in the back seat, or in the rear part of the ambulance, with mr. robert kennedy and general mchugh. in the front seat the ambulance was driven by special agent greer, of which agents landis and myself and dr. burkley rode in the front seat to the u.s. naval hospital in bethesda. at that point navy officials there instructed us where to take the ambulance, to what part of the building, and remove the casket into the morgue facilities. as we landed in andrews air force base, i was met by our chief, mr. james rowley, who informed me that mr. sibert and mr. o'neill of the fbi would join me at the naval hospital and to allow them in. i also informed him that the vehicles--that is, the president's car and our secret service followup car--are en route to washington from dallas, and that he should assign some members from our washington field office to go over these cars for any evidence that might be left. in the morgue, i should say that special agent greer and myself remained all night, mr. o'leary only briefly. mr. specter. where did the---- mr. kellerman. the family was placed---- mr. specter. where did the family go? mr. kellerman. they were placed in a room in the tower section of the naval hospital. mr. specter. did you actually accompany the body from the vehicle to the morgue room? mr. kellerman. yes, sir. mr. specter. and were you present during the entire autopsy? mr. kellerman. yes, sir. mr. specter. tell us in a general way---- mr. kellerman. i only left on three different occasions. mr. specter. for how long were you absent on those occasions? mr. kellerman. a minute or two to make a phone call. mr. specter. while the autopsy was in session, or when did you leave on those three occasions? mr. kellerman. ok. first i was informed by a navy personnel that i should call mr. rowley. there wasn't any phone--there was a phone in the room, but i wasn't aware of it at the time. so, i left and walked out into the corridor and called him. this was my first knowledge that they had found a projectile. the second call, i think i called home; that was my first call to home and that was it. mr. specter. now, the projectile that you just referred to was found where? mr. kellerman. this was the projectile that was reportedly given to our special agent richard johnsen as we were leaving the hospital in dallas. mr. specter. how did you find out about that? mr. kellerman. he says it was given to him by a security man or security officer in the hospital. mr. specter. when did you first hear about it? mr. kellerman. the phone call with mr. rowley that morning after we had got to the morgue. mr. specter. what time was this? mr. kellerman. i am only guessing; o'clock in the evening. mr. specter. nine o'clock in the evening. you had said morning; you didn't mean morning; you meant o'clock in the evening when you had a telephone call. from whom was the call again? mr. kellerman. mr. rowley, chief of secret service. mr. specter. you got the phone call from mr. rowley? mr. kellerman. yes. mr. specter. who had called him, if you know? mr. kellerman. this i don't know. mr. specter. but at that time chief rowley advised of the detection of the bullet on the stretcher and brought you up to date with what information was known at that time? mr. kellerman. yes, sir. mr. specter. now, have you described all the times that you were absent from the room of the autopsy? mr. kellerman. the only other time that i was absent was when the autopsy was about completed before the funeral directors were in, and it was my decision to get mr. hill down and view this man for all the damage that was done; so i went up to the floor where they were at and brought him down and he inspected the incisions. mr. specter. what was your reason for that, mr. kellerman? mr. kellerman. more witnesses, mr. specter; i think more to view the unfortunate happenings it would be a little better. mr. specter. what time did that autopsy start, as you recollect it? mr. kellerman. immediately. immediately after we brought him right in. mr. specter. what time was that approximately, if you have a recollection? mr. kellerman. i don't have a recollection. mr. specter. what time did it end, if you recollect? mr. kellerman. we left the hospital for the white house at : in the morning. mr. specter. : a.m. on november ? mr. kellerman. yes, sir. mr. specter. did the autopsy last all that time? mr. kellerman. no. they were going to give these people a couple of hours that they worked on them. mr. specter. now, did you observe, during the course of the autopsy, bullet fragments which you might describe as little stars? mr. kellerman. yes, of the numerous x-rays that were taken mainly of the skull, the head. the reason for it was that through all the probing which these gentlemen were trying to pick up little pieces of evidence in the form of shell fragments, they were unable to locate any. from the x-rays, when you placed the x-ray up against the light the whole head looked like a little mass of stars, there must have been , lights where these pieces were so minute that they couldn't be reached. however, all through this series of x-rays this was the one that they found, through x-ray that was above the right eye, and they removed that. mr. specter. how big a piece was that above the right eye, would you say? mr. kellerman. the tip of a matchhead, a little larger. senator cooper. let me ask a few questions. mr. kellerman, from what you have just said, i think it would be correct that from the time you began to assist in removing president kennedy from his car to the time you left him in the emergency room that you never saw any bullet on a stretcher, either his stretcher or governor connally's stretcher? mr. kellerman. i never saw any bullet, sir. senator cooper. i believe you testified that, at the time you heard this first report, the president's car was approaching a viaduct? mr. kellerman. approaching, yes, but quite a little distance from it, sir. senator cooper. can you make any estimate as to how far away it was. mr. kellerman. i don't know the footage, senator cooper. senator cooper. can you see it? mr. kellerman. yes; oh, yes, sir. senator cooper. can you see the viaduct plainly? mr. kellerman. oh, yes, sir. senator cooper. could you tell whether anybody was standing on top of the viaduct, or did you observe? mr. kellerman. i didn't notice anybody up there at all, sir. senator cooper. did you observe whether anyone was in the immediate vicinity of the viaduct? mr. kellerman. not at this distance; no. senator cooper. do you have any--at the time of the shots, at the time that you were conscious of these shots being fired, do you have any judgment as to from what direction they came? mr. kellerman. none whatsoever. except i should say again that when this first one went off, which i indicated here that it sounded like a firecracker to my right and, say, rear, i looked to my right to see what it was. senator cooper. then it would be correct to say it was your judgment at the time, at the time of the report---- mr. kellerman. it was my judgment, sir. senator cooper. that it was to the right and to the rear? mr. kellerman. that would be correct. it was my judgment, sir. senator cooper. did you observe any persons standing to the right of the car? mr. kellerman. maybe a handful. senator cooper. did you see anything to indicate that any shot had been fired by those persons? mr. kellerman. no, sir; not at the time. senator cooper. when you heard the report and turned, could you see this building known as the texas book depository? mr. kellerman. not by name. you could see the building because we passed right in front of it, sir. senator cooper. you didn't know it as the texas depository building? mr. kellerman. not then, no, sir. senator cooper. have you any idea how--what distance the president's car traveled from the time you heard the first report until the time you have described as hearing the flurry of shots? mr. kellerman. no; i really don't know the distance. it wasn't too far. senator cooper. what? mr. kellerman. it wasn't too far. mr. specter. for the record, i have some more questions when we reconvene. senator cooper. we will recess then until o'clock. (whereupon, at : p.m., the president's commission recessed.) afternoon session testimony of roy h. kellerman, special agent, secret service, resumed the president's commission reconvened at p.m. representative ford. the commission will come to order. will you proceed, mr. specter? mr. specter. yes, thank you. mr. kellerman, immediately before the luncheon recess, senator cooper had asked some questions relating to the presence of anyone on the triple overpass which was in front of the president's car. did you have any occasion, immediately before or immediately after the shooting, to look for anyone on the triple overpass or in that vicinity? mr. kellerman. no; i really didn't. mr. specter. are you in a position to state, then, whether there was or was not someone on the triple overpass? mr. kellerman. no; i am in no position to state that. mr. specter. at the time of the shooting, did you observe any bullets ricochet off of the windshield or off of any other part of the automobile? mr. kellerman. no. if any of the bullets ricocheted off the windshield or front part of the car, this would have been matter that was blown over mine and the driver's head from, i would say, the explosion of president kennedy's head. mr. specter. but aside from the portions of president kennedy's head which you have already testified about, you observed nothing detectable as being bullet fragments or bullets? mr. kellerman. no, sir. mr. specter. ricocheting off any part of the car? mr. kellerman. no, sir. mr. specter. and did you ever observe any bullet fragments in the car at rest after the shooting? mr. kellerman. no, sir. mr. specter. did you observe a priest at parkland hospital? mr. kellerman. yes; there were two. mr. specter. and approximately what time were they present at the hospital? mr. kellerman. when we brought president kennedy into the emergency room, the request for a priest was made immediately by one of the members of the staff. i do not recall who called for one. however, in the interim, a second call was sent out. consequently, two showed; not at the same time, but one after the other. mr. specter. how long were they at the hospital? mr. kellerman. just a matter of a couple of minutes of time. mr. specter. and do you know where they went upon arrival at the hospital? mr. kellerman. yes, sir. they went right in the emergency room with the president. mr. specter. were you in the emergency room at the time they were there? mr. kellerman. no, sir. mr. specter. and do you know what services, if any, they performed while they were there? mr. kellerman. no, sir. mr. specter. did you have any conversations with either of them while they were en route, either coming or going? mr. kellerman. no, sir. mr. specter. with respect to the state of readiness of parkland hospital at your arrival, how long after you got there were stretcher bearers at the front door? mr. kellerman. to the best of my knowledge, there were no stretcher bearers at the car--none. mr. specter. at your arrival? mr. kellerman. yes, sir. mr. specter. did some come shortly after you arrived? mr. kellerman. no, sir. mr. specter. well, what sequence did follow with respect to the arrival of the stretchers? mr. kellerman. when we arrived at the hospital, i had called to the agents to go inside and get two stretchers on wheels. between those people and police officers who also entered the emergency room, they brought the stretchers out. i did not at any time see a man in a white uniform outside, indicating a medical person. mr. specter. when did you first see the first indication of a doctor? mr. kellerman. when we got in the emergency room itself proper. mr. specter. and do you know which doctor that was? mr. kellerman. not by name or sight; no, sir. mr. specter. how many doctors did you see at that time? mr. kellerman. the room was full. mr. specter. who were the individuals who brought the stretchers on wheels, if you know? mr. kellerman. agents who were in the followup car, police officers who were ahead of us on motorcycles. mr. specter. mr. kellerman, did you state how long the autopsy lasted when you testified this morning? mr. kellerman. no; i didn't. however, this is going to be an assumption on time; i think i can pin it pretty well. mr. specter. give us your best estimate on that, please. mr. kellerman. let's come back to the period of our arrival at andrews air force base, which was : p.m. at night. by the time it took us to take the body from the plane into the ambulance, and a couple of carloads of staff people who followed us, we may have spent minutes there. and in driving from andrews to the u.s. naval hospital, i would judge, a good minutes. so there is o'clock. we went immediately over, without too much delay on the outside of the hospital, into the morgue. the navy people had their staff in readiness right then. there wasn't anybody to call. they were all there. so at the latest, : , they began to work on the autopsy. and, as i said, we left the hospital at : in the morning. let's give the undertaker people hours. so they were through at o'clock in the morning. i would judge offhand that they worked on the autopsy angle - / , hours. mr. specter. and were you present when the funeral director's personnel were preparing the body? mr. kellerman. i was; yes, sir. mr. specter. and about what time, then, did they complete their work? mr. kellerman. they were all through at : . mr. specter. and what did you do immediately after they completed their work? mr. kellerman. all right. our communication between the kennedy family and staff, who were on another floor in the hospital, was in this regard. we had telephone communication whereby we would tell them if the body is ready to be taken out of the morgue and into the ambulance. and they would hit the elevator and come right out the same way. so the minutes it took to load the people in, we left the hospital morgue part at least at : , and, as i say, we were off at : , driving to the white house. mr. specter. and did you go directly to the white house? mr. kellerman. yes, sir; we did. mr. specter. did that complete your tour of duty for that day? mr. kellerman. yes, sir; it did. mr. specter. now, with respect to the time you were present at the autopsy, was there any conversation of any sort concerning the possibility of a point of entry from the front of the president's body? mr. kellerman. no. mr. specter. you have testified about the impression you had as to the source of the first shot, which sounded to you like a firecracker. did you have any impression as to the source of the other shots, which you described as being a flurry? mr. kellerman. if you will excuse me just a minute. i was trying to elaborate on the last question. mr. specter. pardon me. go ahead. mr. kellerman. just for the record, i wish to have this down. while the president is in the morgue, he is lying flat. and with the part of the skull removed, and the hole in the throat, nobody was aware until they lifted him up that there was a hole in his shoulder. that was the first concrete evidence that they knew that the man was hit in the back first. mr. specter. when did they lift him up and first observe the hole in the shoulder? mr. kellerman. they had been working on him for quite some time, mr. specter--through the photos and other things they do through an autopsy. and i believe it was this colonel finck who raised him and there was a clean hole. mr. specter. what was said, if anything, by those present at the autopsy concerning the wound in the throat? mr. kellerman. to go back just a little further, the reason for the hole in the throat, the tracheotomy; i am thinking they were of the opinion that when the--when he was shot in the head, and they had found this piece remaining above the eye underneath; i am sure there was some concern as to where the outlet was, and whether they considered--this is all an assumption now; whether they considered this--that there was a hole here in the throat prior to the tracheotomy, i don't know. but to complete the examination, they lifted him up by the shoulders, and there was this hole. now, i think you asked me a question. could you repeat it, please? mr. specter. well, let's be sure that we have your final answer on the question of any conversation at all about a point of entry in the front part of his body, in his throat, or any place else. mr. kellerman. i don't believe, mr. specter, that it was ever concluded that there was an entry in the front. mr. specter. then that completes the conversations at the autopsy? mr. kellerman. yes, sir. mr. specter. on any of the subjects i have asked you about? mr. kellerman. right. mr. specter. the question which i had then started to ask you was whether you had any impression at the time of the second and third shots, which you described as a flurry of shots, as to the point of origin or source of those shots. mr. kellerman. the only answer i can give to that is that they would have to come from the rear. mr. specter. well, is that the impression or reaction you had at the time of the flurry? mr. kellerman. that is right, sir. mr. specter. have you ever, since the time of the assassination to this date, had any contrary impression, reaction, or view that the shots came from the front of the president? mr. kellerman. no. mr. specter. now, mr. kellerman, with respect to the immediate reaction by you to the emergency situation, did you consider at any time leaving your seat, on the right front of the president's automobile, to go into the rear portion, where the president sat? mr. kellerman. no, sir. mr. specter. and what is the basis for--or what was the basis for your conclusion on that? mr. kellerman. after i had heard president kennedy's voice say, "my god, i am hit," i viewed him, which was enough for me that he was. my decision was to get this man to a hospital, because he needed medical treatment. and during the few seconds that i instructed the driver to get out of here, we are hit, my second instruction was to the man in the lead car ahead of us for the same, to lead us to a hospital, that we are hit. i then turn around, and i had two people injured. not only was the president down in his seat; the governor was down in his seat. my presence back there was gone. on top of that, i had mr. hill lying across that trunk. mr. specter. what do you mean when you say, sir, that your presence back there was gone? mr. kellerman. they were comfortable, if there is a comfort in this. mr. hill was taking care of mrs. kennedy. mrs. connally was over the governor; there was no motion. the next thing was a doctor, sir. mr. specter. did you consider presenting a further shield for the president at that time? mr. kellerman. no, sir. mr. specter. did the metallic handhold which you described early in your testimony as being about inches off the top of the seat and going all the way across the width of the car, did that metal structure present any substantial impediment to your moving from the front seat to the rear seat of the automobile? mr. kellerman. mr. specter, i think it would have been a small obstacle. however, let me say this: if i thought in my own mind that i was needed back there, there wouldn't have been an obstacle strong enough to hold me. mr. specter. how about the presence of governor connally in the jump seat? would the presence of governor connally or any passenger in the jump seat provide a substantial obstacle to your moving from your seat to shield the president's body? mr. kellerman. not at all. it wouldn't have made any difference, sir. why? because my job is to protect the president, sir, regardless of the obstacles. mr. specter. did mr. greer at any time use the radio in your car? mr. kellerman. no, sir. mr. specter. mr. kellerman, did the president's automobile at any time slow down after the first shot? mr. kellerman. no; not that i recall. mr. specter. mr. chairman, that completes our questions, sir. representative ford. as you turned from houston onto elm, you were then facing the triple overpass? mr. kellerman. yes, sir. representative ford. you were looking forward at the time? mr. kellerman. yes. representative ford. you were not looking to the side particularly, or back at all? mr. kellerman. don't let me change your thought, mr. congressman. but as we turned left on elm, there is also another curve before you get to this overpass. representative ford. a rather slight curve to the right? mr. kellerman. very much. i still knew there was an overpass. representative ford. but your concentration was ahead? mr. kellerman. ahead. representative ford. not to the side or to the rear? mr. kellerman. no; not to the rear especially; that is true. let me explain a little more. when you are riding in this automobile, which is with him, and on your right side, naturally you are observing more on the right. it is obvious. however, you still have time periodically to glance over to the left for viewing anything that might be of a danger--whether it is people or any other object. representative ford. there is no way you would know from personal observation in what direction the president was looking at the time he was hit by the first shot? mr. kellerman. that is right; i would not. representative ford. could you outline for us here the process by which you were put in charge of this particular operation? mr. kellerman. yes. representative ford. can you outline for us the procedure that is followed in such cases? mr. kellerman. yes, indeed. as i said earlier, we have three people, for a better word, in charge of the white house detail. mr. behn--gerald behn--is the special agent in charge. there are two assistants, floyd boring and myself. on all trips this was a divided matter. and this one was my trip. not that i picked it or anything. it was my trip that mr. behn said, "you will make this one with the president." the other two people would have other duties to do. and this is how it fell on to me for that day, sir. representative ford. once this assignment is made by mr. behn, what happens after that? mr. kellerman. in regard to who, sir? representative ford. to your responsibilities. mr. kellerman. the overall. representative ford. in other words, from that assignment by mr. behn, you take charge; you execute; you make assignments and so forth? mr. kellerman. only one thing. i am not going to say that i don't make assignments. mr. congressman, these people all work in a team form. we have three shifts. they work together for a long time, and to say this, that they knew each other's footprints, is probably an overstatement. but they know each other's methods. let me go back just one step further. i want to give it clear to you. let's say the four or five stops that we had in texas on this visit--we had one overnight in fort worth. all right. each time, each stop that we make, the individual that we had sent out ahead to set up and coordinate the program with the people in that area, whether it is security or otherwise, through communications for the days he is away, he keeps us abreast of what is going on, who to expect, and so forth. and, again, i should say that in the morning of the d in fort worth, this lad called me--mr. lawson--asked about the top, whether it should remain on or off, which decision was reached from mr. o'donnell. i then asked him--i said, "are we going to be all right in dallas?" he said, "oh, yes; it is a good program." fine. if and when we ever arrived at that spot, i would ask this man, is there anything unusual when we get here. that is a general question that i have given these people all the time. representative ford. in other words, once the assignment has been made that you handle this trip, and in this case there was first a stop at el paso, then at houston---- mr. kellerman. san antonio. representative ford. san antonio; then houston, fort worth. you stayed overnight at fort worth? mr. kellerman. right. representative ford. then you proceeded to dallas on the d? mr. kellerman. correct; yes, sir. representative ford. as i understand it, when you arrived at san antonio, the man that is in charge there, you immediately contacted. mr. kellerman. yes, indeed. representative ford. when you go to houston, the same process? mr. kellerman. yes, sir. representative ford. fort worth, the same? mr. kellerman. fine. representative ford. and when you got to dallas, when you arrived there, whom did you see first? mr. kellerman. mr. lawson. representative ford. and what did he tell you? mr. kellerman. he said, "your program is all set. we have all the equipment and there should be no problem here." fine. let me go back to fort worth again. on that night we had an overnight. the gentleman we had working that stop had an added thing thrown into him, which was the speech before breakfast. the president spoke to a crowd across the main street in front of the hotel. after the president retired that night, he and i went down to that parking lot. i said, show me where this man is going to be, where the platform is going to be, where are you going to have all these folks, and how close are they going to be; show me. he did. you have got to keep abreast of these things, mr. congressman. well, it is your job. representative ford. were all of these men that had charge of these various operations in san antonio, houston, fort worth, dallas, men of experience? mr. kellerman. very much; very much so. i want to give you a little information on how these people are selected for doing your advance work out of washington. in the first place, when they are brought in, you instruct them on everything you do securitywise around the white house. you instruct them in rangework, followup car work, every little phase entailed. then say you have a little movement in town--the president has a press conference, as an example. he doesn't do that. send him with an older fellow. even if he just walks around, learn it. take him another place, a departure from an airport, or a theater. give him four or five. then give him one, give him a little departure at an airport, or a hotel. but have somebody with him. then there is no mistake made. representative ford. now, when these men are assigned to handle the responsibilities in a particular city, such as lawson in dallas, is lawson on the staff here or is he a man from dallas with the secret service? mr. kellerman. these are all people we have in the white house detail, sir. representative ford. in other words, lawson was a white house detail man from washington? mr. kellerman. right, sir. he is one of the men off those three shifts. representative ford. now, when was your assignment made as the man in charge of this particular operation? mr. kellerman. oh, i am going to say a week ahead, for lack of a better time--in fact, i knew that much of it. representative ford. november---- mr. kellerman. say the th, for a better day. representative ford. on or before november th you got this assignment. mr. kellerman. surely. i knew that i was making a trip, and none of the other two gentlemen were. representative ford. what did you do after you got this assignment--what steps did you take? mr. kellerman. ok. the steps that i took--this entails work right here in washington. first, to determine, to staff people in the white house, who is all going to make it, who are the passengers. this is a thing that those advance people out in the field do not know when they leave. you set up the time schedule--flight time--because the people on the other end want you there at : in the morning, you have to work back a flight time from washington, or the helicopter time from the white house. all this is incorporated. weatherwise--you will use an automobile. allow a little more time. all right. from the people that are out in the field on those or different spots, they are the ones that coordinate with the local folks what program they would like, which is forwarded back, conferred with staff people, whether it is approved, disapproved, added, or cut out. and about the day before you leave, then it is all gelled. representative ford. but this is your principal responsibility, to pull everything together. mr. kellerman. right. representative ford. now, according to the various reports we have, when you know you are going to a particular city, or several cities, you have a method or a procedure to check to see if there are any individuals or organizations that present a serious threat to the president. mr. kellerman. yes, sir. we have what we call a protective research section. this has been in existence for many years, through roosevelt's days--i will go back that far. through the combined efforts of various sources, through other agencies, they have a file on all the, let's say dangerous, for a better word, people that could be suspected in the city he arrives in. they will furnish the agents on those three shifts, if there are a number of them, or even one--it doesn't make any difference--all the data possible on that person--it will be given to each shift. it is a report form; can be read by all. and, if possible, there is a photograph included. that will be circulated around. representative ford. now, when you got your assignment on or about november , what did you do in this regard? mr. kellerman. one little thing i should say. well, i am sorry. one of the first things we do, when a trip is planned, is make a call on that prs section and tell them, "on november we are going to be in san antonio, houston, and fort worth. on the d we will be in dallas, austin, and at the ranch." and they take it from there, sir. representative ford. so, on or about november d, you made this inquiry. mr. kellerman. this inquiry, sir, would be made a week ahead of time. representative ford. a week ahead of the date that you were appointed? mr. kellerman. that's right. representative ford. who would make that inquiry? mr. kellerman. that would be made by any one of the three people--mr. behn, mr. boring, or myself, or one other person which i interrupted you a second ago. a departure is given to one man from one of the shifts who would set up a departure from the white house to andrews. he, too, in turn notifies our protective research section of this thing. representative ford. well, do you know who in this case for this trip made that inquiry of the protective research section? mr. kellerman. i don't have the name right now. representative ford. would there be a record of that made? mr. kellerman. yes, sir; yes, sir. representative ford. i think we ought to have that for the record--the time it was made. you don't recall making it yourself, however. mr. kellerman. no. the chairman. do you know if it was actually done? mr. kellerman. it is always done, sir. the chairman. i know. but do you know if it was done in this case? mr. kellerman. not for a fact; no. representative ford. but you must assume it was done. mr. kellerman. very much so. representative ford. were you given the information from this inquiry, even though you didn't make it yourself? mr. kellerman. what kind of information, sir? representative ford. well, about those people who are considered dangerous or a problem in any one of these four or five cities where the president was going on this trip. mr. kellerman. i will have to check this, but there was no record. representative ford. in other words---- mr. kellerman. no information. representative ford. in other words, prs never turned over to you any information about any dangerous individuals in any one of these communities on this trip. mr. kellerman. that's right. representative ford. is this unusual? mr. kellerman. yes. but let me reserve the right to recheck that question again; may i? representative ford. absolutely. all we want in this case, as in any other, are whatever the facts are to the best of records that are available. mr. kellerman. all right. representative ford. in the report from the secret service it says, and i quote, "because of the incidents on the occasion of the visit of ambassador stevenson to dallas earlier in the fall, special attention was given to extremist groups known to be active in dallas. appendix a describes the action taken in dallas in more detail." were you familiar with that part of the secret service activity prior to your departure for texas? mr. kellerman. i have knowledge of that; yes, sir. representative ford. how much knowledge? mr. kellerman. but not enough to be written up, that i recall, sir. representative ford. well, could you describe for the commission what knowledge you did have in this regard? mr. kellerman. the only knowledge i can describe to you, sir, is the fact that we were aware of what this ambassador went through down there. however, we had no information that such an incident would happen to president kennedy on his trip into that state. representative ford. but i gather from this report, which is the official report of the treasury department, that somebody knew of these previous incidents, and was thereby alerted to the possibility of--the potential of one, because the report says, "special attention is given to extremist groups known to be in dallas." now, could you tell us what special attention was given? mr. kellerman. no. outside of the fact that everybody was alerted to this previous incident. representative ford. prs, protective research section, didn't tell you, as the person in charge, of any individuals or of any groups that wanted special attention? i am using "special attention" as in the report. mr. kellerman. right as of this minute, the only knowledge that i have of any incident that could happen was in san antonio, when i believe we had information of some pickets. now, those pickets showed up outside of--he made a speech at that space hospital. well, anyway, in view of that, i cannot reach the name right now--these pickets were out at, let's say, the main gate to the grounds, and just stayed right there with their placards. representative ford. also on the report it says, "in accordance with the usual practice, the local fbi office informed the local secret service office of any information which affected the president's visit." mr. kellerman. they did. that is the normal practice. representative ford. that was the normal procedure? mr. kellerman. it is always the normal procedure; yes, sir. representative ford. now, whom would they have informed in this case in dallas? mr. kellerman. their report would have come to washington, and relayed to our protective research section. representative ford. and the fbi in this instance gave you what information, if any, that you should relay back to the people---- mr. kellerman. the only thing i can recall right now, sir, are those pickets in san antonio. representative ford. well, may i say if on your return to your office you find any information on this particular point, i think it would be very helpful for the record, and it should be included in the record. mr. kellerman. all right. i surely will. representative ford. the report also says, "on october , , the local fbi office gave the local secret service officer the name of a rightwing individual in the dallas area. an investigation was made. on november and the local fbi office referred two pieces of information to the local dallas office of the secret service." were you familiar with that? mr. kellerman. no. representative ford. who would, under your normal procedures, have been familiar with that? mr. kellerman. it would be the same organization, protective research section. representative ford. but they did not give you any information of this. mr. kellerman. no. representative ford. is this unusual or different? mr. kellerman. if they evaluated this information, there would have to be a degree of seriousness. representative ford. but, as far as you can best recollect at this point, you were never so informed. mr. kellerman. no, indeed. representative ford. the report does go on to say, and i quote, "one involved scurrilous literature already in the hands of the secret service, exhibit . the second involved possible picket trouble which the local police were aware of." that is the picket trouble you were talking about? mr. kellerman. apparently so. representative ford. the report also says on page , "special agent lawson, saic sorrel, and special agent howlett met with dallas law-enforcement officials. special agent howlett also met with an informant. they followed up all leads and tips and checked scurrilous literature, exhibit ." did you have any information personally about this activity by lawson, sorrel, and howlett? mr. kellerman. no, sir. representative ford. was it their responsibility to do it, to undertake that kind of an operation? mr. kellerman. everybody but lawson. these other two gentlemen you are speaking of are field agents out of dallas. yes; they would investigate the seriousness of this thing, through the information furnished by the fbi. and, depending on the degree now, this would be furnished our protective research section here in washington. representative ford. now, did lawson or anybody else communicate to you what was going on in this regard? mr. kellerman. no, no. i do not think mr. lawson got in this investigative part at all. it would not be any part of his duties. representative ford. i am only reading from the report. mr. kellerman. yes. representative ford. and the report goes on to say, "their investigations did not bring to light the name or the individual lee h. oswald, and he or his name was not known to them or any other secret service agent in dallas or elsewhere prior to this shooting of the president." would that be the same as far as you are concerned? mr. kellerman. that is very true. representative ford. you did not know of lee h. oswald? mr. kellerman. none whatsoever. representative ford. was it surprising to you that when the president was going to a city as large as dallas, that there were no names turned over to you, either by your protective research section or by any other federal agents--individuals or an individual dangerous to the president? mr. kellerman. i recall, to give you an answer, congressman, that it did seem strange that here we are hitting five cities in one state and--and from the apparent trouble ambassador stevenson had down there one evening, we certainly should have had some information on somebody. representative ford. hypothetically, if you go to other large metropolitan areas, do you normally get names from various agencies, including prs, warning you of an individual or groups that might cause trouble? mr. kellerman. again i say that our prs would recheck their files, from all the cities--from all the cases that they have in that city, and furnished us information, whether a report or photographwise. they in turn would--and i believe i am correct on this--they in turn notify the bureau of this visit, or may have people check through their files. they can doublecheck this stuff. i don't recall any information whatsoever, except that picket thing. representative ford. it is surprising to me, as well, and i gather it was certainly, on reflection, surprising to you---- mr. kellerman. yes; it is. representative ford. was this in itself any warning to you that there might be some breakdown in the system? mr. kellerman. gee--no; i never cherished that thought, sir. representative ford. you assumed that the proper liaison between various agencies was taking place, and your prs was operating effectively? mr. kellerman. oh, yes; very much; yes indeed. now, if i am wrong, when i check these two questions back here, i will let you know. mr. specter. congressman ford, on this line, perhaps i should say that organizationally we are divided into phases where this is a separate phase in terms of protective devices. so, for the prepared part of what the staff has set up, we have by design omitted that portion here, with later witnesses to go into all these questions in some detail for the commission. representative ford. i was trying to get from mr. kellerman--from his testimony he was indicating that he was the person who from on or about november had the responsibility. and i was trying to trace precisely how this responsibility was carried through, up to the point where you started out this morning. do i understand, then, that at some later point in the commission hearings with other witnesses we will go back into the process of how these decisions are made, as far as prs is concerned? mr. specter. yes, sir. there will be detailed witnesses on the workings of prs, and how they functioned with respect to this trip, and what information the fbi had or the state department had about lee harvey oswald, and whatever coordination, if any, was present. our thought was that that would be handled separately, organizationally. certainly, to some extent it is impossible to draw sharp lines of distinction here. but that is the way the staff has prepared the distinctions--with mr. kellerman going more specifically, as the other witnesses of today, on the sequence of events themselves at the assassination. representative ford. but, as far as the procedures within prs and the relationship between the secret service, the fbi, and other federal agencies, that will come up later on in other witnesses who are more familiar with the precise workings. mr. specter. exactly; yes, sir. representative ford. who actually had the responsibility to check the route from the airport to the trade mart? i mean to check the route, lay out whatever security precautions should be taken from the outset until the day of the president's visit? mr. kellerman. that was coordinated, mr. congressman, between mr. lawson and members of the dallas police department, sir. representative ford. you did not arrive in dallas until the morning of the assassination? mr. kellerman. yes, sir; that is correct, sir. representative ford. as you were in the car, in the right front seat, and the car turned from main street right into houston, you had for a relatively short period of time an opportunity to look at the texas school depository building. did you look at it; did you notice anything about it? what was your reaction, if any, to that particular building? mr. kellerman. not knowing the name of the building--let me say this: when you are driving down this street, regardless of houston or which, and you have buildings on either side of you, you are going to scan your eyes up and down this building. representative ford. did this building create, as you turned into houston street, any particular problem that would have alerted you one way or another? mr. kellerman. none whatsoever. it did not produce a thing. representative ford. your eyes scanned the area. did they scan sufficiently to identify anything, to be alerted by anything in any window, on the roof, or anyplace else? mr. kellerman. no, sir. representative ford. did mr. lawson or anybody else indicate to you at any time that the book depository building was a problem? mr. kellerman. no, sir. representative ford. i mean beforehand. mr. kellerman. never mentioned it. representative ford. did mr. lawson or anybody else discuss with you any particular danger involved in the overpass, the triple overpass? mr. kellerman. no, sir. representative ford. did you have minute knowledge as to the route in dallas, or was that left up to lawson in his judgment? mr. kellerman. left up to lawson and the people in texas. representative ford. but he did tell you when you arrived in dallas; what, again? mr. kellerman. and the people in texas, the police department. representative ford. what did he tell you? when you arrived in dallas that morning, he told you something. mr. kellerman. yes, sir. he said, "this is your reception committee, which is at the bottom of the ramp leading out." i said, "are we all right in dallas here all the way for today?" and he said, "yes; this will be fine." i said, "all right; let's get on with it." representative ford. when were you first interviewed by anyone regarding the directions from which the shots came? mr. kellerman. i don't recall ever being interviewed. representative ford. did you ever make a statement for submission to the commission or to your supervisors? mr. kellerman. just this statement that i submitted here. representative ford. which is included in the secret service report. mr. kellerman. yes, sir. representative ford. did you have anything to do with setting up the method of trying to apprehend the alleged assassin? was that outside or within your jurisdiction? mr. kellerman. outside, sir. representative ford. you did nothing in that regard. mr. kellerman. nothing. representative ford. i believe that is all. i have to go back to a very important committee meeting, mr. chairman. i may be able to get back later, mr. chief justice. the chairman. i will be here the rest of the afternoon, so there will be no necessity of your coming back if you are tied up. thank you very much for presiding all day. mr. specter, have you some more questioning? mr. specter. i have just one or two other questions. mr. kellerman, you referred to a single statement which you said you had made. in the report of the u.s. secret service on the assassination of president kennedy, on exhibit , statement --we have the first statement which you made, which is four pages, and that is the one to which you referred, to refresh your recollection earlier today, and i show you what appears to be a second very brief report which you made day later under date of november , , with your name and initials, and ask you if you made this one, also. mr. kellerman. that is right; yes, sir. mr. specter. all right. you referred to you and mr. boring being the two assistant special agents in charge. is that status the same at the present time, or are there now three assistant special agents in charge? mr. kellerman. there are three. mr. rufus youngblood is the third one. mr. specter. has that slight shift been made since the time of the assassination. mr. kellerman. that is correct. mr. specter. mr. chief justice, those are my only additional questions, sir. the chairman. mr. craig, would you like to ask any questions, or do you think of any other avenue that we should explore here? mr. craig. no, sir; thank you, mr. chief justice. as the interrogation has progressed, i have been handing notes to counsel and he has been very kind in asking those questions. the chairman. mr. murray, can you think of anything? mr. murray. no, thank you, mr. chief justice. mr. smith. off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. craig. mr. kellerman, is there any special agent in charge of the protection of the person next in line in succession, to your knowledge? mr. kellerman. i think mr. rowley would like to man that. i think they have had a little difficulty to find a man. mr. craig. there is no such person now? mr. kellerman. no, they have made numerous attempts with the people, and so far they have got a negative reply. the chairman. well, mr. kellerman, thank you very much, sir, for your attendance and for your testimony. mr. kellerman. thank you, sir. (at this point, representative ford left the hearing room.) the chairman. now, mr. specter. mr. specter. we will call mr. greer. the chairman. mr. greer, how do you, sir. mr. greer, will you raise your right hand and be sworn. do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth before this commission, so help you god? mr. greer. i do. the chairman. would you be seated, please. testimony of william robert greer, special agent, secret service mr. specter. would you state your full name for the record, please. mr. greer. william robert greer. mr. specter. by whom are you employed, mr. greer? mr. greer. the treasury department, secret service division of the treasury department. mr. specter. how old are you at the present time? mr. greer. fifty-four years old. mr. specter. how long have you been with the secret service department? mr. greer. i have been with the secret service department since october , . mr. specter. what is your educational background? mr. greer. i have just education in public schools in ireland, really. mr. specter. and---- mr. greer. i took courses here in this country. mr. specter. are you a high school graduate, then? mr. greer. well, i have years of high school. mr. specter. and when did you complete this educational background? mr. greer. i have to go back now. mr. specter. approximately. mr. greer. about or . mr. specter. would you outline in a general way what your activities have been since that time, up until your joining the secret service, please? mr. greer. yes, sir. i was born and raised on farmwork, a farmer. and i done that until i came to this country in february . i worked for a period of time--i lived in boston for a little while. i worked one summer on the estate of henry cabot lodge. i was a chauffeur for a family in brookline, mass., for about a year. and then i went to new york, dobbs ferry, n.y. i lived there for years as a chauffeur for a private family in dobbs ferry, n.y. then i went in the navy in november . i got discharged on september , . mr. specter. what were your principal duties while in the navy? mr. greer. i was seaman first class. i did almost years at bainbridge, md., with the seaman guard there. and then i was assigned to the presidential yacht in may , until i was discharged in september. but most of my duty was at the white house in that period, that year. mr. specter. and how long after discharge from the navy was it before you joined the u.s. secret service? mr. greer. well, i got out of the navy september and october i went with the secret service--a matter of or days. mr. specter. describe your duties since joining the secret service, please. mr. greer. since joining the secret service i was assigned to the uniform force at first with the secret service at the bureau of engraving and printing. for about years i was with the physical education part of it. we had a gymnasium there. i was an instructor there part-time--part of the time. and then i was assigned for about years to pick up the food of the president at the white house. i had that duty for about years. and then i went back to the treasury for a short period, a few months. and then i was reassigned to the white house as an agent in november-- i went, there. i was made a full agent that following august . i was there as a special officer from november to august . mr. specter. and have you been assigned to the white house staff since that time? mr. greer. yes, sir; i have been there ever since. mr. specter. and while assigned at the white house staff, how much of your duty has involved driving the president's car? mr. greer. well, i drove the followup car for quite a long time--you know, off and on. and then i drove the president at intervals during president truman's and president eisenhower's terms. i was also assigned a great many times to mrs. eisenhower. when she left washington, i was always assigned to her, to travel with her. and i have been assigned to the president, to drive the president, since election day, with president kennedy. i was the senior agent assigned to him, to drive him. mr. specter. how did you get to dallas yourself back on november , ? mr. greer. i flew--i was on a plane with the president all during the trip. and i flew from fort worth to dallas that morning. mr. specter. mr. greer, i hand you documents which have been marked commission exhibits , , and . i ask you if you can identify those, starting with , what that depicts. mr. greer. yes, sir; i can identify this automobile very well. that is the lincoln, especially built for the president. and this is a rear view of that same automobile. this is the interior of that lincoln continental. yes, sir, everything is very positive that i can identify. mr. specter. how did that automobile--how was that automobile transported to texas? mr. greer. it was flown there in a c- . mr. specter. and do you know where it was flown to? mr. greer. well, it was flown--let's see, i forget the day before where our first stop was on that trip right now. i would have to go back into my papers. but we used i believe more than one stop. i am trying to think where we used it before we went to dallas. it could have been at houston. i am not too sure whether we used it at houston the day before or not. i would have to go back in my records. mr. specter. is it possible the first time you used the automobile on that texas trip was at dallas? mr. greer. right now it is so long ago, i have almost forgotten whether we did use it at houston prior to that or not. i am not too sure where the first stop was. we sometimes use it more than one stop. mr. specter. is there any covering which can be put on the president's automobile? mr. greer. there is--when we put the plastic--i put the plastic on it, we have a black canvass-type cover that buttons over the top of the plastic. mr. specter. will you please describe in a general way the plastic covering you just referred to. mr. greer. the plastic covering is made in six pieces. three of them--there are two corner pieces and a centerpiece on the back that we fasten together before we set it up onto the car. then there is a front--one piece that goes across the front seat after that. then the last pieces we put on are two that go in the center, and they meet together in the center--they come together in the center. that makes the six pieces that it comes down in. we have to break it down in the six pieces to store it in the trunk. it is kept in the trunk of the car whenever we are not using it. mr. specter. are the three pieces that you described as being joined together for the rear portion disassembled at all times? mr. greer. we disassemble them to store them in the trunk, yes, sir. but we put them together on the floor, on the ground or something like that--we put the three pieces together, then we lift it up and set it in place, which covers the back seat of the car. mr. specter. and after you put the three pieces together for the back portion of the car, how many additional pieces are there for the balance of the car? mr. greer. three; three more pieces. mr. specter. and how are they secured to the automobile itself? mr. greer. they are secured with--i don't know what you would call it--these fasteners, snaps, kind of snaps that snap on them. we have them made that way so that we can install them or take them apart very fast. mr. specter. now, is this cover transparent? can it be seen through? mr. greer. the plastic; yes. you can see through it. mr. specter. and what is the plastic made of, if you know? mr. greer. well, it is a type of plastic. i just don't know who manufactures it. but it is clear plastic. mr. specter. is it bulletproof or bullet resistant? mr. greer. no, sir. it is weather--the idea back of it was for inclement weather, that the president could be seen if the weather was too bad to have him outside. that is what we had in mind originally with it. mr. specter. do you have any personal knowledge of any efforts made to obtain a bulletproof or bullet-resistant transparent top? mr. greer. now, or before that? mr. specter. well, start beforehand. mr. greer. no; i never had anything to do with that at all. i never had anything to do with anything being made for that. mr. specter. do you know what efforts have been made subsequent to the assassination of president kennedy to obtain such a bulletproof transparent top? mr. greer. only just hearing conversation; nothing definite; no, sir. mr. specter. approximately what time, to the best of your recollection, did president kennedy arrive in dallas on november ? mr. greer. i would have to--i would not tell you right now. i would have to go back and look into my--you probably have it there. i have it also on my report. mr. specter. if you don't recall the exact time, just give us your best estimate. mr. greer. approximately : . i am guessing. mr. specter. and what was his mode of transportation into dallas? mr. greer. he flew on an air force plane. mr. specter. and where did he fly from? mr. greer. from fort worth to dallas. mr. specter. will you tell us in a general way what he did upon arrival in dallas at love field? mr. greer. yes, sir. he got off the plane. he walked along the fence along there, and shook hands with a great many people. there was a large crowd there. he and mrs. kennedy both walked along and shook hands with many people. mr. specter. now, approximately how long after arrival at love field did he get into his automobile? mr. greer. i would guess probably, say, approximately maybe minutes. mr. specter. what were the weather conditions like that day as he got into his automobile? mr. greer. the weather was very nice that day. it was a beautiful day in dallas, very fine day, warm, fairly warm, nice day. mr. specter. was the car open? mr. greer. the car was open; no top. mr. specter. approximately how many automobiles were there in that motorcade? mr. greer. i wouldn't have--couldn't tell you right now how many. there was quite a few cars. mr. specter. who were the occupants of the president's car? mr. greer. on the back seat, on the right rear seat, the president, mrs. kennedy on the left rear seat, governor connally was on the right jump seat, and mrs. connally was on the left jump seat. mr. kellerman was riding on the right front, and i was driving. mr. specter. at what speed did you travel as you proceeded at various points from love field, say, down into the downtown area of dallas? mr. greer. well, we traveled at various speeds, according to the amount of people, the crowd. if it was--if we came to a large crowd, we would have to slow down. i would say, to probably to miles an hour. then we would pick it up possibly or somewhere around-- maybe to , where there was few people. mr. specter. what was the maximum speed at which you drove from the time you left love field until the time you got to downtown dallas? mr. greer. i wouldn't have the slightest idea now, after this length of time. i could not say how much it would be. mr. specter. can you give us your best estimate on the minimum speed from the time you left love field until the time you arrived at downtown dallas? mr. greer. the minimum speed traveling at all would probably be to miles an hour. mr. specter. and what sort of crowds were along the way? mr. greer. there was large crowds--at some places there was quite large crowds. mr. specter. did anything unusual occur en route from love field to the downtown area of dallas? mr. greer. well, i think--it may have been--we may have stopped one time where he got out--didn't get out, but he stopped and spoke to some young people, i believe, en route. i think there may have been a group of people there. mr. specter. i hand you a photograph which has already been marked commission exhibit no. and ask you if at this time you are able to identify what that photograph depicts. mr. greer. yes, sir. that is the photograph of the route that we traveled in dallas. mr. specter. i show you a photograph marked commission exhibit no. and ask you if you can identify what that picture represents. mr. greer. with pictures that i have seen since then, i would recognize that as the book depository building in dallas--the street in front of it. mr. specter. are you familiar with the name of this street, which has since been marked by mr. kellerman, who identified this exhibit and marked the name of the street on it? mr. greer. no, i wasn't at the time, but i know now that it is supposed to be main street. mr. specter. and do you know in what general direction main street proceeds? mr. greer. i am not too sure. no; i wouldn't really know. i didn't have enough time. mr. specter. and are you familiar with the street which intersects with main---- mr. greer. houston street. mr. specter. and what street did you turn off of from houston? mr. greer. houston to elm street. mr. specter. now, as you were proceeding down main street, which i will add is in a generally westerly direction, what is your best estimate of your speed as you turned the corner right onto houston street? mr. greer. i would estimate the speed was somewhere between to miles per hour, coming through there. mr. specter. and as you made that right-hand turn onto houston street, what was the composition of the crowds along the way, if any? mr. greer. on main street there were very, very large crowds. they were almost close up against the automobile. sometimes the motorcycles on the sides could not even get through. they were real close to us. and very large crowds. and when we got around on houston street, the crowds thinned out quite a lot. my recollection here is that there wasn't too many people on elm street--a few scattered people at that point. mr. specter. and your finger indicated there the position near the texas school depository building? mr. greer. yes, sir. mr. specter. now, you have described motorcycles. how many were present with the president's automobile, if any? mr. greer. i could not tell the exact amount of motorcycles that were escorting us at that time. we usually do have them on the two front fenders and two rear fenders, and some probably preceding that, and some along the motorcade behind us. i could not tell you exactly how many there probably would be. mr. specter. do you recollect that there were some on this occasion, however? mr. greer. yes, sir; there were motorcycles. mr. specter. now, do you know how many cars back your car was in the motorcade? mr. greer. no; i don't know how many police cars were ahead of us. i knew that the lead car was right directly ahead of me, with one of our agents, or maybe two, and the chief of police in that car. but how many police cars prior to that, i do not know how many there were at the time in front of us. mr. specter. how far ahead of you was that police car as you turned off of main street onto houston? mr. greer. i usually allow or car lengths, if possible, between the car and myself, in case that there is any reason to speed up quick. i like to leave enough room that i can get out of there. i don't like to get too tight to the lead car when possible--unless the crowds are so big that i have to get in or they would close in on me--i have to get in closer. mr. specter. do you know how far behind you the first car immediately behind yours was? mr. greer. the car behind me was only some few feet, because with our training and all, we stay very, very close to the president's car. sometimes we are bumper to bumper. and the car never is much more than to feet away from the president's car, at slow speeds. mr. specter. did you endeavor to maintain a constant speed in the operation of the president's car so as to avoid contact with this close gap between the president's car and the president's follow-up automobile? mr. greer. yes, sir. we tried to drive at a very steady speed. we are used to driving with each other, and we almost can tell each other's thoughts what we do, because of the training we have had, and we work so long together. we drive at a steady pace of speed, so that we give each other enough ample time to stop or move in close. mr. specter. after turning off main onto houston, did you have any opportunity to take a look at the building which you have since identified as the texas school book depository building? mr. greer. no, sir. i had not any chance to look much at that building at all. when i made the turn into elm street, i was watching the overpass expressway--the overpass, or what was ahead of me. i always look at any--where i go underneath anything, i always watch above, so if there is anyone up there that i can move so that i won't go over the top of anyone, if they are unidentified to me, unless it is a policeman or something like that. we try to avoid going under them. mr. specter. now, when you turned off of houston onto elm, did you make a right-hand or a left-hand turn? mr. greer. i made a right-hand turn off of main onto houston. mr. specter. and when you turned from houston onto elm, was that a right-hand or a left-hand turn? mr. greer. that was a left-hand turn. mr. specter. and as you turned onto elm street, how far, to the best of your ability to estimate, was your automobile from the overpass which you have just described? mr. greer. i wouldn't have a distance recollection at all on how far it was. it wasn't too far. i just could not give you the distance. mr. specter. at that time, did you make a conscious effort to observe what was present, if anything, on that overpass? mr. greer. yes, sir. i was making sure that i could not see anyone that might be standing there, and i didn't see anything that i was afraid of on the overpass. mr. specter. did you see anything at all on the overpass? mr. greer. not that i can now remember. mr. specter. what is your best recollection of the speed at which you were traveling as you turned left off of houston onto elm? mr. greer. my best recollection would be between and miles per hour. mr. specter. and how far were you at that time behind the police car which was in front of you? mr. greer. probably feet maybe--approximately. i will say approximately feet. mr. specter. as you turned onto elm, did you have any opportunity to observe how far behind you the president's follow-up car was? mr. greer. no, sir. i was not looking in my mirror; i could not say how far it was behind me at the time. mr. specter. and what was the nature of the crowd as you made the turn onto elm street, if you recall? mr. greer. to the best of my memory, the crowd had thinned out a great deal, and there was not too many people in front of that building. mr. specter. how many lanes of travel were there on elm street? mr. greer. it was either three or four lanes wide. i have forgotten. mr. specter. in what portion of the street were you traveling? mr. greer. i was right in the center of the street. mr. specter. would you describe for us the contour of the street at that point--whether it was level, hilly, or what. mr. greer. it was starting to go down--gradually going down toward this underpass. it was a down grade. mr. specter. now, would you tell us just what occurred as you were proceeding down elm street at that time? mr. greer. well, when we were going down elm street, i heard a noise that i thought was a backfire of one of the motorcycle policemen. and i didn't--it did not affect me like anything else. i just thought that it is what it was. we had had so many motorcycles around us. so i heard this noise. and i thought that is what it was. and then i heard it again. and i glanced over my shoulder. and i saw governor connally like he was starting to fall. then i realized there was something wrong. i tramped on the accelerator, and at the same time mr. kellerman said to me, "get out of here fast." and i cannot remember even the other shots or noises that was. i cannot quite remember any more. i did not see anything happen behind me any more, because i was occupied with getting away. mr. specter. now, how many shots, or how many noises have you just described that you heard? mr. greer. i know there was three that i heard--three. but i cannot remember any more than probably three. i know there was three anyway that i heard. mr. specter. do you have an independent recollection at this moment of having heard three shots at that time? mr. greer. i knew that after i heard the second one, that is when i looked over my shoulder, and i was conscious that there was something wrong, because that is when i saw governor connally. and when i turned around again, to the best of my recollection there was another one, right immediately after. mr. specter. to the best of your ability to recollect and estimate, how much time elapsed from the first noise which you have described as being similar to the backfire of a motor vehicle until you heard the second noise? mr. greer. it seems a matter of seconds, i really couldn't say. three or four seconds. mr. specter. how much time elapsed, to the best of your ability to estimate and recollect, between the time of the second noise and the time of the third noise? mr. greer. the last two seemed to be just simultaneously, one behind the other, but i don't recollect just how much, how many seconds were between the two. i couldn't really say. mr. specter. describe as best you can the types of sound of the second report, as distinguished from the first noise which you said was similar to a motorcycle backfire? mr. greer. the second one didn't sound any different much than the first one but i kind of got, by turning around, i don't know whether i got a little concussion of it, maybe when it hit something or not, i may have gotten a little concussion that made me think there was something different to it. but so far as the noise is concerned, i haven't got any memory of any difference in them at all. mr. specter. describe as best you can the sound of the third noise. mr. greer. just, to me it was similar, to the first two. they all sounded practically the same to me. mr. specter. you testified that at the second noise you glanced over your shoulder. mr. greer. yes, sir. mr. specter. which shoulder did you glance over? mr. greer. right shoulder. mr. specter. and describe or indicate how far you turned your head to the right at that time? mr. greer. just so that my eyes over, caught the governor, i could see, i couldn't see the president. i just could see the governor. i made a quick glance and back again. mr. specter. was the movement of your head just then approximately the same? mr. greer. yes, sir. mr. specter. as the time? mr. greer. yes, sir. mr. specter. you just indicated the turn of your head slightly to the right. mr. greer. my eyes slightly more than my head. my eyes went more than my head around. i had vision real quick of it. mr. specter. exactly where was governor connally when you first caught him out of the corner of your eye? mr. greer. he was--he seemed to be falling a little bit toward mrs. connally, to the left. he started to go over a little bit to the left. mr. specter. and how far did you catch his movement during the time you were able to observe him? mr. greer. just a second. he probably hadn't gotten his shoulder, he hadn't fell down or anything. he probably was in a position such as i am now. mr. specter. did he fall to the rear or to the side or how? mr. greer. in my opinion, he fell toward mrs. connally which would be to his left or to his side. mr. specter. did he fall then on his left shoulder and arm or in some other way? mr. greer. he appeared to me to be falling on his left shoulder when i glanced. he had only started to move that way whenever he--when i saw him. mr. specter. were you able to see anything of president kennedy as you glanced to the rear? mr. greer. no, sir; i didn't see anything of the president. i didn't look, i wasn't far enough around to see the president. mr. specter. when you started that glance, are you able to recollect whether you started to glance before, exactly simultaneously with or after that second shot? mr. greer. it was almost simultaneously that he had--something had hit, you know, when i had seen him. it seemed like in the same second almost that something had hit, you know, whenever i turned around. i saw him start to fall. mr. specter. did you step on the accelerator before, simultaneously or after mr. kellerman instructed you to accelerate? mr. greer. it was about simultaneously. mr. specter. so that it was your reaction to accelerate prior to the time---- mr. greer. yes, sir. mr. specter. you had gotten that instruction? mr. greer. yes, sir; it was my reaction that caused me to accelerate. mr. specter. do you recollect whether you accelerated before or at the same time or after the third shot? mr. greer. i couldn't really say. just as soon as i turned my head back from the second shot, right away i accelerated right then. it was a matter of my reflexes to the accelerator. mr. specter. was it at about that time that you heard the third shot? mr. greer. yes, sir; just as soon as i turned my head. mr. specter. what is your best estimate of the speed of the car at the time of the first, second, or third shots? mr. greer. i would estimate my speed was between and miles per hour. mr. specter. at the time all of the shots occurred? mr. greer. at the time the shots occurred. mr. specter. now what, if anything, was mr. kellerman doing at the time of the first shot? mr. greer. i couldn't really speak for where he was watching, what part of the street or the buildings or what he was watching at that time. i don't really know. mr. specter. do you know what mr. kellerman was doing at the time of the second shot? mr. greer. he was sitting there in the front. no, sir; i don't know what his action was then. i was watching the overpass, i wasn't looking his way. mr. specter. when you were watching the overpass at that time, did you observe anything on the overpass? mr. greer. not that i can remember now. mr. specter. did you observe that there was no one present on the overpass? mr. greer. my recollection, there may have been a police officer up there. it is vague to me now everything that i had seen at that time. mr. specter. do you know what mr. kellerman was doing at the time of the third shot? mr. greer. no, sir; i couldn't say what he was doing. mr. specter. was there any radio communication between your automobile and any of the other automobiles? mr. greer. yes, sir. mr. specter. who made that radio communication? mr. greer. kellerman. mr. specter. tell us as precisely as you can when he made that radio communication. mr. greer. after he had said to me, "get out of here fast." he got the radio and called to the lead car, "get us to a hospital fast, nearest hospital fast." mr. specter. do you recall whether he said anything else at that time? mr. greer. after he had said to me, he said, " : ," and that is all i remember him saying to me was : , and he had communications with the cars but i don't remember what he had said to them. mr. specter. did he say just " : ," or was it : used in a sentence? mr. greer. he said " : ." he looked at his watch, he said " : ," and we were in the underpass at the time. mr. specter. mr. greer, would you on commission's exhibit , mark with an "a" as best you can indicate the position of the president's automobile at the time of the first shot? mr. greer. do you want me to mark it on this exhibit? mr. specter. right there, that is right, that red pencil with an "a," a small "a." mr. greer. this is the center, i would say [indicating]. mr. specter. will you mark your best estimate as to the position of the automobile at the time of the second shot with the letter "b"? mr. greer. i would have to guess how far i had traveled at that time. i really wouldn't know. it was probably a little farther, only guessing how far i would go. i am guessing as to the distance between them. maybe farther but i am only guessing to say at that. i wouldn't have any definite reason. mr. specter. would you make that "b" a little plainer, if you can? mr. greer. yes. mr. specter. could you give us the best estimate in feet as to the distance you traveled from the time of the first shot to the time of the second shot? mr. greer. no, sir; i don't believe i could. anything i would say would be guessing. mr. specter. would you be able to give us a meaningful mark on the overhead photograph as to the position of your car at the time of the third shot? mr. greer. from this overhead. i probably was where this mark is here. mr. specter. would you mark it? mr. greer. i will put it alongside. mr. specter. put a little "c." mr. greer. this was for the third shot. mr. specter. yes, sir. mr. greer. this is "c." this not having an idea really of how much footage is in there at all. i wouldn't---- the chairman. i didn't understand. mr. greer. i said i wouldn't probably know, mr. chief justice, how many feet would be in that distance, i would be guessing how many feet. the chairman. yes; i understand. mr. specter. did you have any opportunity to observe the overhead as you were driving along after the last shot occurred? mr. greer. no, sir. i was fairly close to it, to the best of my memory, and i was trying to watch then where i was going. i had to look ahead to see, i was catching up on the lead car real fast, and i had to watch what was ahead of me. mr. specter. how fast was it possible to accelerate your automobile at that time? mr. greer. well, it is a very heavy automobile, and it does not pick up too fast on account of the weight. i have never tested to see how many feet i could travel in a second. i have never had any reason to test it to see how much i could travel. but it was in low gear at that time, and that helps you to accelerate a lot faster. mr. specter. would you characterize it as a very rapid or a rapid acceleration? mr. greer. no. mr. specter. or how would you characterize it? mr. greer. it is a very smooth car taking off anyway, and i would say it wasn't rapid. it is fairly fast in low gear but not rapid like a light car will be. mr. specter. does that car have an automatic transmission? mr. greer. yes, sir. mr. specter. and what are the varieties of forward speeds in the vehicle? mr. greer. it has a low gear and then it has drive one and drive two. it has two top gears. one has, one probably has, free wheeling more than the other. the other is not a free wheeling gear. mr. specter. how fast can the car be driven in the low gear? mr. greer. i would say safely you can drive it up to miles an hour in low gear. that is estimating it at . mr. specter. from the time of the first shot until the time of the third shot, was your car moving in a straight line or in an arc or how would you describe it? mr. greer. i was following the contour of the road, the center of the contour of the road as it goes. mr. specter. what is the path of the contour of the road? mr. greer. well, at the time i didn't think much of it but it is a little, there is a little bend in the road going to the underpass. mr. specter. did you hear anyone in the car say anything from the time of the first shot until the time of the third shot? mr. greer. not to the best of my recollection, i don't remember. (at this point, representative boggs entered the hearing room.) (discussion off the record.) mr. specter. mr. greer, did you hear anyone say anything from the time of the third shot until the time of arrival at parkland hospital? mr. greer. no, sir; i didn't. i didn't hear, i can't remember hearing anyone say anything at all. we were quite preoccupied to get to the hospital as fast as we can, as we could, and that was my mind was really occupied on what i was doing. i didn't hear anything. mr. specter. do you know what speed you were traveling at en route to the hospital? mr. greer. no, sir; i couldn't say. i was just getting through the traffic and through the streets as fast as i could get through. mr. specter. would you have any estimate at all on speed? mr. greer. i would estimate that i must have been doing or , at least miles an hour at times. we might have been going as fast as miles an hour, i am sure. mr. specter. when you accelerated your automobile, did you at any time come alongside of or pass the police car in front of you? mr. greer. no, sir; i never passed it. i came up alongside one or two motorcycle men and i called to them "get to a hospital fast". you know, i called to them "hospital". mr. specter. were you led to the hospital? mr. greer. yes, sir; i was led to the hospital by the police car who was preceding me. mr. specter. did you have any independent knowledge of the route from where you were? mr. greer. no, sir. mr. specter. from the point of assassination to the hospital? mr. greer. no, sir; i didn't. mr. specter. were you escorted by any other automobiles besides the police car in front of you? mr. greer. we had motorcycles and i don't know if there were other police cars out in front of that or not. i am sure there may have been, but i couldn't say right now. mr. specter. was there any radio communication between your automobile and the hospital at any time prior to your arrival at the hospital? mr. greer. no, sir; not between the hospital and our car. mr. specter. did mr. kellerman have any radio contact at all with anyone in addition to that which you have already described? mr. greer. he may have had some more communications to the car, the lead car, but i can't remember what they were now. mr. specter. did you observe any bullets strike any portion of the car or ricochet in any way during the course of the shooting? mr. greer. no, sir; i did not. mr. specter. did you observe any bullets or fragments of bullets at rest in the car after the shooting terminated? mr. greer. no, sir; i didn't. i left the car at the hospital and i didn't see it any more until the next day. mr. specter. i hand you commission exhibit no. , mr. greer, and ask if you are able to identify what that picture represents? mr. greer. that represents the windshield of the car. mr. specter. of the president's car? mr. greer. yes, sir; it looks like the windshield of the president's car. mr. specter. now calling your attention to a small arrow---- mr. greer. arrow. mr. specter. which points up on what appears to be an indentation, i ask you if you--when was the first time, if at all, that you observed that indentation? mr. greer. i didn't observe that---- mr. specter. on the car? mr. greer. until after i got back to washington, until the car came back to washington. i saw it at the white house garage. it was the first time i had ever noticed that. mr. specter. on what date did you observe that indentation on the car? mr. greer. that was the day after, the , would be it. it would be the day after the shooting. we got back from dallas. mr. specter. and what time of the day did you observe the car at the white house garage on that date? mr. greer. it was in the afternoon, i believe. i believe it was in the afternoon, i believe. mr. specter. did anyone call that indentation to your attention at that time? mr. greer. yes; i was asked if i knew about it. mr. specter. who was it who asked you? mr. greer. i can't remember now who did say that, but i was shown that indentation at the same time i was the break in the glass. i was shown both and asked if i had known but i can't remember who might have asked me. mr. specter. had you ever observed that indentation before the assassination occurred? mr. greer. no, sir. i had never noticed it before at any time. i had never seen it before. mr. specter. had you ever had any occasion to examine closely that metallic area to ascertain whether or not there was such an indentation prior to the assassination? mr. greer. well, it seems to me i would have prior to that had it been there because i do take care of the car sometimes, and it had never been--i had never noticed it at any previous time. mr. specter. i hand you commission exhibit and ask you if you are able to state what that depicts? mr. greer. that depicts a break or a shatter in the windshield of it. mr. specter. does that picture accurately represent the status of the windshield on the president's car at sometime? mr. greer. yes, sir; that windshield looks real familiar to me on the way it---- mr. specter. at what time, based on your observation, did the windshield of the president's car look like that picture? mr. greer. i had never seen that until the following day after it came back from dallas. mr. specter. but on november , did the president's car windshield look like that? mr. greer. yes, sir; it looked like there was a break that had a diamond, in the windshield whenever i was shown that at the garage, the white house garage. mr. specter. was the size and scope of the crack the same as that which is shown on that exhibit? mr. greer. that i wouldn't remember whether it was quite that large or not. i don't believe it was that big. it might not have been but i wouldn't say for sure. mr. specter. did you observe any crack on the windshield after the time of the shooting on november ? mr. greer. no, sir; i didn't see it at all. i didn't know anything about it until i came back, until the car came back and i was shown that. mr. specter. did you have any occasion on november , after the shooting, to observe closely the windshield? mr. greer. no, sir. the only time i was in the car was going to the hospital and i never--i didn't see the car any more. it was just from the shooting until we got to parkland that i was with the car. i left the car there and never did see it until it was back at the white house garage. mr. specter. are you able to state with certainty there was no crack in that windshield prior to the shooting on november ? mr. greer. yes, sir; i am sure there was nothing wrong with that windshield prior to that because i would have--it was almost in front of me and i examined the car. i looked it all over when i got there. i saw it was clean and everything, the windshield. i didn't see this ever at any time previous. mr. specter. mr. greer, i now call your attention to a windshield which has been marked as commission exhibit no. , and i will ask you to take a look at it and identify it for us, if you can, calling your attention first of all to the windshield itself. are you able to state---- mr. greer. yes, sir; this is the windshield that came out of the lincoln. mr. specter. that you were operating on the day of the assassination? mr. greer. yes, sir. mr. specter. can you describe what cracks, if any, which you see now on that windshield were present? mr. greer. when i looked---- mr. specter. when you observed the automobile windshield on november , the next day? mr. greer. this little star, the star in here with the little star. these cracks were not there. mr. specter. now by these cracks you are indicating---- mr. greer. these. mr. specter. the long cracks which radiate off from the center? mr. greer. that is right. this was the only cracks that i could see was this star-type fragment. mr. specter. there you are indicating what would be described as the principal point of contact which was present when you observed it on november ? mr. greer. yes, sir. mr. specter. give me your best estimate on the diameter of the cracking of the windshield as it existed on november ? mr. greer. to the best of my estimate it would be these little stars that are here, the little shatters that are here. mr. specter. would it be fair to say that you are indicating a circle with a circumference or diameter of approximately an inch to an inch and a half? mr. greer. i don't think--it probably would be an inch. the whole diameter. mr. specter. approximately inch as you estimate it? mr. greer. yes, sir. representative boggs. excuse me, did you say you did not notice this crack from the time that you drove the car after the shooting to the hospital? mr. greer. no, sir; i had flags on the car and you know they were waving at a high rate of speed and you have the presidential flag and the american flag in front of you there; you know when you are going at a fast speed you get a lot of, well, i don't know how you would say it, it attracts you so much that i didn't have any recollection of what happened on the windshield. representative boggs. there was no glass or anything that spattered on you in any way? mr. greer. no, sir; i didn't feel anything at all. i didn't feel a thing hit me. i was kind of shocked at the time, i guess anything could have and i wouldn't have known what hit me. you are tense, i was pretty tense, and naturally my thoughts were the hospital, and how fast i could get there, and probably i could have been injured and not even known i was injured. i was in that position. mr. specter. mr. greer, what is your best estimate and recollection of the time that the shooting occurred? mr. greer. well, mr. kellerman saying : to me makes me--that stays in my mind foremost, and that was when we had just left the scene of the shooting, a few seconds or a second or two from it. that is why that : stays in my mind, him saying : to me right after the shooting, he said. his watch may not have been correct but that is what he said to me at the time. mr. specter. what is your best estimate of the distance between the point where the assassination occurred and parkland hospital? mr. greer. no, sir; i haven't. it seemed like endless miles and probably wasn't very far, but it seemed like to me it was endless getting there. i was---- mr. specter. are you able to give us an estimate with reasonable accuracy on the time it took? mr. greer. no, sir. mr. specter. from the time it took from the point of the shooting until you arrived at parkland hospital? mr. greer. i didn't check anything but i thought that probably it would probably be or minutes. i am not too sure, somewhere in the vicinity of and minutes. i would have to guess at that. mr. specter. how did you know which entrance of the hospital to go to? mr. greer. i followed the car that was in front of me right to where he stopped and i was right at the entrance. the car stopped and i stopped alongside of him. mr. specter. which entrance was that? mr. greer. it seems, i think it was the emergency entrance, i am almost sure. it was like a bay that you could pull in and out of. it looked like an ambulance entrance. mr. specter. what did you observe with respect to president kennedy's condition on arrival at the parkland hospital? mr. greer. to the best of my knowledge he was laying, it seemed across mrs. kennedy, looked like laying across her lap or in front of her, i am not too sure which, i opened the doors--the doors were opened before i got to it, someone else had opened the doors and they were trying to get connally out, and mrs. connally out of the seats so they could get to the president. mr. specter. what did you observe about the president with respect to his wounds? mr. greer. his head was all shot, this whole part was all a matter of blood like he had been hit. mr. specter. indicating the top and right rear side of the head? mr. greer. yes, sir; it looked like that was all blown off. mr. specter. yes. mr. greer. i run around the front of the car and got hold of a stretcher or thing and i got hold of it to keep it steady while they lifted the president's body onto it and then i helped pull the front end of it into the emergency room. mr. specter. who was first removed from the automobile? mr. greer. governor connally was first removed. he was on the jump seats. mr. specter. and what, if anything, did you observe as to governor connally's condition on arrival at parkland hospital? mr. greer. the best of my recollection he was lying across the seat toward mrs. connally when they picked him up and got him out of the car. and he was rushed in first into the hospital. that is when i got the stretcher to bring it, to hold it until they would get the president on it, on the right side of the car. they took him out on the side he was sitting on, that side of the car. mr. specter. were you able to make any personal observation about governor connally's specific wound? mr. greer. no, sir. i didn't know how badly anyone really was injured. i had great thoughts the president was still living and that was the only thing i was thinking about was to get them in quick. mr. specter. did you observe anything specific which led you to the conclusion that the president was still living? mr. greer. no, sir. when he was in the emergency room and i was there, i did see his chest expand and move, the movement of the chest a time or so. mr. specter. were you able to observe any wound on the front side of the president? mr. greer. no, sir; i didn't, i never seen any on the front side of the president. the only thing i saw was on the head. i didn't know at the time of any other injuries on him. mr. specter. as to the front side of the president's body, were you able to observe any hole or tear in either his shirt or tie? mr. greer. no, sir; i didn't and i brought them back, those things, and i didn't see them at the time. i probably didn't inspect them very closely but they were handed to me in a paper bag to bring back. mr. specter. when did you acquire custody and possession of those items of clothing? mr. greer. after they had made the president's body ready for removal, i was in the emergency room, and a nurse got two shopping bags and i held them and she put the president's suit, his belongings into the two bags including his shoes and socks, and his pants and jacket which they had torn and the shirt they had torn, they had torn it to take it off him, and the nurse put these into the two bags and i got custody of them right then from the nurse at the emergency room. mr. specter. were there any other items of wearing apparel such as shorts or undershirt? mr. greer. yes, sir; his shorts and that brace he wore, whatever it was, and his sox and shoes, and shirt, and his trousers, and his suit coat. mr. specter. are you able to state with certainty that there was no undershirt? mr. greer. yes, sir; there was no undershirt. i am sure there was no undershirt. i would have to say it to the best of my recollection, there was no undershirt. i had been with him so many times and i knew he didn't normally wear an undershirt because i had heard him one time previously, i offered him a coat. he said, "i have an undershirt on today," it was at some ballgame. he normally didn't wear an undershirt. mr. specter. can you describe with more particularity the brace you just said he was wearing? mr. greer. it looked like a, i would say, a corset-type brace, maybe inches wide, he wore it around his, down low around his, haunches, a little lower than the waist, probably, just probably below his belt he wore it there. it was something he normally wore, and i would guess, but i would say it was of a soft, maybe a kind of corset-type material, maybe elastic or something like that support. mr. specter. mr. greer, when your automobile arrived at parkland, was there any medical individual awaiting your arrival? mr. greer. i can't remember--there were--who brought the stretchers out. there were some hospital people there, but who they were, i never got--i couldn't identify or knew who they were. there were some medical people there; yes. mr. specter. where were they when you first saw hospital personnel? mr. greer. when i pulled into the ambulance entrance there were some people there on the right-hand side with these stretchers that they had rushed out. i don't know just who they were from the hospital staff. there was a great deal of confusion because everyone was trying to help, the agents were there. mr. specter. are you able to state whether there was a doctor in attendance at that time? mr. greer. no, sir; i couldn't state that. mr. specter. what did you do after your arrival at parkland hospital? mr. greer. i helped pull it, take the stretcher into the emergency room that he was on. it is on wheels, and i helped to take that in, and i stayed inside the door of the emergency room most of the time while they were, the doctors were, working on the president's body. mr. specter. how many doctors were working on him in the emergency room? mr. greer. there were, between nurses and doctors. i would estimate there were, between or people, maybe not that many, to people in and out of that room. i don't know how many of them were doctors, attendants, nurses, and things like that with white jackets and they would come in and say, "i am doctor so-and-so." mr. specter. how long were they working on him there in the emergency room? mr. greer. i couldn't remember the time. mr. specter. you say you were with him most of the time? mr. greer. i was inside the door. i know, i kept the door closed most of the time, let doctors and nurses in and out while he was--while they were working on him. i stayed inside the emergency room door. mr. specter. was there any special reason for you to leave part of the time? mr. greer. no, sir; i didn't go any farther away than outside the door. mr. specter. were there any other secret service agents inside the emergency room at that time? mr. greer. not at that time; i was inside the door. mr. specter. where was mrs. kennedy at this time? mr. greer. mrs. kennedy was outside the door. they got her a chair out there for a little while and then she insisted on coming in and she got in the corner for a little while there and stayed there a little while and i don't quite remember the time she went over to his body but she did go over there, and i don't remember how far along the doctors had been on him when that happened. mr. specter. were you able to overhear any of the conversations among the doctors in the emergency room? mr. greer. i don't understand anything that they were discussing at all. mr. specter. did a priest or more than one priest come upon the scene? mr. greer. i believe there were two. to the best of my recollection there eventually was two. mr. specter. how long after president kennedy arrived at the emergency room did the priest arrive, if you recollect? mr. greer. no, sir; i wouldn't have any idea, it seemed to me it was quite a little while in the matter, probably minutes. mr. specter. approximately how long did the priests stay? mr. greer. i don't remember that, sir. mr. specter. did they say anything on leaving or in entering? mr. greer. not that i heard of personally. i was outside the room when the priest was in there. i wasn't in the emergency room while he was in. mr. specter. when did you find that the president had died? mr. greer. when the priest was in to give him the last rites then i knew that. mr. specter. do you have any reasonably close estimate on when the president did die? mr. greer. no, sir; i haven't right off. i would have to look at some reports. mr. specter. what did you do after the president was pronounced dead? mr. greer. we stayed there until everything was settled up. i believe there was a judge came in there and i think, someone came in and made the decisions on removing the body and the casket was brought in, and the body was put in the casket. i had this, his clothing, i kept it in my hand at all times, all the time. then i went, when they removed the casket from the emergency room, i was in front of it going out to make a path to get it to the ambulance. so, i helped get it into the ambulance and then i drove a car with some agents and some people right behind the ambulance to love field back to the airport again and helped to get the casket aboard the airplane. mr. specter. were you present at the swearing in of president johnson? mr. greer. yes, sir; i was--we were all asked to come back into the state room but i wasn't in too close. i was in the main part of the plane, as close as i could get to it, yes. mr. specter. how did you personally return to washington, d.c.? mr. greer. i returned on air force with the president's remains. mr. specter. and at approximately what time did you leave dallas to fly back? mr. greer. i would have to look in my reports to say exactly. i would have to go back on the times. two something but i don't remember. mr. specter. do you have any idea of the time you arrived in the washington area? mr. greer. i believe it was or : . as i say i have it in my reports but i haven't looked at the times recently. mr. specter. where did you arrive in the washington area? mr. greer. at andrews air force base. mr. specter. what did you do next in connection with this matter? mr. greer. i helped to get the casket out of the plane, and put it into a navy ambulance and then i drove that navy ambulance to bethesda naval center. mr. specter. what did you do upon arriving at the bethesda naval center? mr. greer. i stayed in, while the autopsy was being performed, i stayed in the autopsy room with mr. kellerman and the doctors and the people who were in there. i stayed in there and observed what was necessary that i could do. mr. specter. were any secret service agents present besides you and mr. kellerman? mr. greer. no, sir. mr. specter. at the autopsy? mr. greer. there may have been, mr. hill may have come in and out but he didn't stay there. mr. kellerman and i stayed permanently the whole time there. there may have been, mr. hill may have come in there and have gone back out but he didn't stay in there. mr. specter. during the course of the autopsy did you hear any doctor say anything about the wound on the right side of mr. kennedy's back? mr. greer. that was the first time that i had ever seen it, when the doctors were performing the autopsy, they saw this hole in the right shoulder or back of the head, and in the back, and that was the first i had known that he was ever shot there, and they brought it to our attention or discussed it there a little bit. mr. specter. what conversation was there concerning the wound on the right back? mr. greer. well, the doctors and people who were performing the autopsy, when they turned the body apparently over they discovered that this wound was in the back, and they thought that they probably could get a bullet out of there, and it took a lot of--then they took more x-rays, they took a lot of x-rays, we looked at them and couldn't find the trace of any bullet anywhere in the x-rays at all, nothing showed on the x-rays where this bullet or lead could have gone. mr. specter. approximately where in the president's back was the bullet hole? mr. greer. it was, to the best of my recollection it was, back here, just in the soft part of that shoulder. mr. specter. indicating the upper right shoulder area? mr. greer. upper right, yes. mr. specter. was there any effort made to probe that wound by any doctor? mr. greer. i believe, yes, i believe the doctors probed to see if they could find that there was a bullet there. mr. specter. do you know which doctor that was? mr. greer. no, sir; i don't, i don't have their names at this time. mr. specter. did any doctor make any statement about the results of his probing effort? mr. greer. i questioned one of the doctors in there about that, and when we found out that they had found a bullet in dallas, i questioned the doctor about it and he said if they were using pressure on the chest that it could very well have been, come back out, where it went in at, that is what they said at the time. (at this point, representative ford entered the hearing room.) mr. specter. was anything said about any channel being present in the body for the bullet to have gone on through the back? mr. greer. no, sir; i hadn't heard anything like that, any trace of it going on through. mr. specter. did you just mention, mr. greer, a hole in the president's head in addition to the large area of the skull which was shot away? mr. greer. no. i had just seen that, you know, the head was damaged in all this part of it but i believe looking at the x-rays, i looked at the x-rays when they were taken in the autopsy room, and the person who does that type work showed us the trace of it because there would be little specks of lead where the bullet had come from here and it came to the--they showed where it didn't come on through. it came to a sinus cavity or something they said, over the eye. mr. specter. indicating the right eye. mr. greer. i may be wrong. mr. specter. you don't know which eye? mr. greer. i don't know which eye, i may be wrong. but they showed us the trace of it coming through but there were very little small specks on the x-rays that these professionals knew what course that the bullet had taken, the lead. mr. specter. would you describe in very general terms what injury you observed as to the president's head during the course of the autopsy? mr. greer. i would--to the best of my recollection it was in this part of the head right here. mr. specter. upper right? mr. greer. upper right side. mr. specter. upper right side, going toward the rear. and what was the condition of the skull at that point? mr. greer. the skull was completely--this part was completely gone. mr. specter. now, aside from that opening which you have described and you have indicated a circle with a diameter of approximately inches, would you say that is about what you have indicated there? mr. greer. approximately i would say inches; yes. mr. specter. did you observe any other opening or hole of any sort in the head itself? mr. greer. no, sir; i didn't. no other one. mr. specter. specifically did you observe a hole which would be below the large area of skull which was absent? mr. greer. no, sir; i didn't. mr. specter. did you have occasion to look in the back of the head immediately below where the skull was missing? mr. greer. no; i can't remember even examining the head that close at that time. mr. specter. when president kennedy was being treated in the emergency room at parkland hospital, were any pictures or x-rays taken of him there? mr. greer. no, sir; not that i know of. i didn't see any being taken. mr. specter. was he ever turned over that you observed while being treated at parkland hospital? mr. greer. no, sir. i can't recollect him ever being turned over. mr. specter. do you have any recollection that he was in fact not turned over? mr. greer. no, sir; i couldn't even say. i didn't see them turn him over in any way in my vision, although my back was to him quite often and because i was attending to the door and they could have done it. mr. specter. was he on a stretcher at the time he was being worked on at parkland hospital? mr. greer. i can't remember whether they changed him from a stretcher to a table. i am not sure on that. mr. specter. mr. greer, as to the return of the president's automobile to washington, do you know how that was accomplished? mr. greer. it was driven to love field, and put aboard the same c- it was taken out on and flown back to andrews air force base. mr. specter. do you know when it was returned from dallas to the washington area? mr. greer. i believe it was returned shortly after, it left shortly after, the president's plane left, was flown back. mr. specter. i hand you two photographs marked commission exhibit no. and commission exhibit no. . do those photographs represent the condition of the back seat of the president's car at some time? mr. greer. yes, sir; they do. mr. specter. and at what time do those pictures look just as the back seat of the president's car looked? mr. greer. it looked like that when it came back from dallas. mr. specter. did it look like that immediately after president kennedy was removed from the back seat? mr. greer. i wasn't there any more, sir. i was with the president after they lifted him out. i didn't see the car after he had been removed. mr. specter. did you observe the back seat of the car at any time from the time you arrived at parkland hospital until you observed the automobile in washington? mr. greer. no, sir. mr. specter. on november ? mr. greer. no, sir; i didn't. mr. specter. by the way, mr. greer, how much, approximately, does or did the president's automobile weigh? mr. greer. it weighed between--well, for flight reason we said , , but it wasn't that much. it probably was , . we had extra weight on it. mr. specter. are you able to tell the commission the dimensions of the automobile, indicating its length? mr. greer. yes, sir. it is feet inches long. mr. specter. and how wide? mr. greer. i would have to go back for the width on it. i have it all in black and white in the office, but i haven't got it with me in my head right now; i am sorry. mr. specter. could three people sit comfortably in the front seat of the automobile? mr. greer. yes, sir; it was wide enough for three. we many times had an aide in there; many times, an aide rode in the front. mr. specter. was it as wide or wider than, say, a cadillac automobile? mr. greer. no, sir; it would be probably the same width. representative boggs. was that car specially made for the president? mr. greer. yes, sir; it was a specially built car. representative boggs. was it a lincoln continental? mr. greer. yes, sir; a lincoln continental. representative boggs. how did it differ from the ordinary lincoln? mr. greer. well, lincoln doesn't make a seven-passenger car, and this was a seven-passenger car. the back seat on this car would raise inches. it was electric, and you could lift, you could raise, the seat up inches from the ground, from the floorboards. it had a little step that went with it. the president could raise it up and down himself. he had a button alongside that would cause it to go up and down when the top wasn't down. it wouldn't go up and down when the top was down. but when it was off he could raise it up or down, and it would be above the other seat. mr. specter. do you know whether the seat was actually raised at the time of the assassination? mr. greer. no, sir; i couldn't say right off. i don't believe it was, but i wouldn't know. mr. specter. going back to the shots themselves, mr. greer, do you have any reaction as to the direction from which the shots came? mr. greer. they sounded like they were behind me, to the right rear of me. mr. specter. would that be as to all three shots? mr. greer. yes, sir. they sounded, everything sounded, behind me, to me. that was my thought, train of thought, that they were behind me. mr. specter. have you ever had any reaction or thought at any time since the assassination that the shots came from the front of the car? mr. greer. no, sir; i had never even the least thought that they could come. there was no thought in my mind other than that they were behind me. mr. specter. yes, sir. the chairman. congressman boggs, are there any questions you would like to ask the agent? representative boggs. i don't think so, mr. chairman. the chairman. congressman ford. representative ford. did you ever have any thought there were more than three shots? mr. greer. no, sir; i never did. representative ford. did you positively identify the fact that there were one, two, three, or was there one, and then a delay, and then a flurry? mr. greer. to the best of my recollection, congressman, was that the last two were closer together than the first one. it seemed like the first one, and then there was, you know, bang, bang, just right behind it almost. the two seemed, the last two seemed, closer to me than the other. representative boggs. did you speed up after you heard the first shot? mr. greer. after i heard the second. the first one didn't sink into me, didn't give me the thought that it was a shot. i thought it was the backfire of a motorcycle. but when i heard the second one and glanced over my shoulder, i knew something was wrong then. i didn't know how bad anyone was injured or anything, but i knew there was something wrong, and right away after the second one i accelerated as fast as i could. the chairman. mr. craig, would you like to ask any questions? mr. craig. thank you, mr. chief justice. with respect to the position of the president's car that you were driving as it approached the underpass, you state now that you couldn't fix any specific distance. but would you say it was less than a mile that the president's car was from the overpass? mr. greer. oh, definitely. i couldn't say in feet or yards, but it was within--it was feet. i would say probably a hundred or feet. it could be within that; it was definitely right up close to me, but i---- mr. craig. with respect to your vision, was it unobstructed down the roadway, looking at the overpass? mr. greer. yes, sir; there were no obstructions in the road that i could see. mr. craig. as i recall your testimony, you were actually observing the overpass to see if there was any person there. mr. greer. people up there at that time i would be doubtful of going underneath. mr. craig. yes, sir. and you say now you do not recollect that you saw anyone there? mr. greer. yes, sir. mr. craig. you said also, i believe, that it was some time now since you made that observation. did you make any report of any kind with respect to anyone being on the overpass immediately after this incident? mr. greer. no, sir. mr. craig. you made no written report to anybody as to whether or not there were people on the overpass or were not people? mr. greer. no, sir; i haven't. mr. craig. do you believe if you had observed people on the overpass at that time you would now remember it? mr. greer. yes, sir; i believe i would; yes, sir. mr. craig. if you had observed people on the overpass as you proceeded toward it, and they were other than a policeman or policemen or some other law-enforcement agent, what would you have done? mr. greer. well, i try never to go underneath a bridge if there are people up over it, if there are people who i don't know as law enforcement. i try not to go underneath them. i will probably veer to one side of them at any time. that is a matter of our training, that we try not to go underneath anyone with an open car where anyone could drop something. mr. craig. would you ever stop, if necessary, if you thought there were people up there that you couldn't veer around? mr. greer. if there was any danger there i would have to either change my way of traveling. i have never had it happen, and never had any reason to, but we try, i try, not to go underneath a group of people standing on any overpass at any time. i try to move over, if the condition permits me to. sometimes, when the road is too narrow, i couldn't. but that is part of our procedure, i think, to see that no one is on an overpass. mr. craig. that is all. the chairman. if there are no further questions---- mr. specter. mr. chief justice, may i ask one or two other questions? the chairman. yes. mr. specter. i have just noted that we have the report of the fbi which bears bureau file no. -s, as it appears here somewhat indistinct, s- , "report of special agent robert p. gemberling, dated december , ," and this refers, mr. greer, to an interview of you by special agents francis x. o'neill, jr., and james w. sibert. there is a report here of an interview of you and of special agent kellerman, and the date here is listed as november , , and there is this reference made in the report, and i will quote it verbatim: "greer stated that he first heard what he thought was possibly a motorcycle backfire, and glanced around and noticed that the president had evidently been hit. he thereafter got on the radio and communicated with the other vehicles stating that they desired to get the president to the hospital immediately." mr. greer. i didn't go on the radio. it was mr. kellerman who done the radio talking. i didn't. it is a misquote if i done it. i didn't get on the radio. mr. kellerman did. mr. specter. did you ever make this statement, mr. greer, to special agent o'neill or sibert? mr. greer. those two agents were in during the autopsy; those two agents were in the autopsy room, with mr. kellerman and i, all night. mr. sibert and o'neill were both in the autopsy room with us during that time, and the only time that any of us, either mr. kellerman or i, we never left the room, one or the other. we went and got some coffee and came right back, something like that, and the fbi did the same thing. one of them left; the other stayed. mr. specter. do you now recollect whether or not you ever said to them that you were the one who communicated on the radio with the other vehicles? mr. greer. no, sir; i know i never remember saying that to them because i know i didn't do it. so that is how i know that i didn't say it, because i know i didn't do it. mr. kellerman did. mr. specter. and the first part refers to your noticing that the president evidently had been hit. did you ever---- mr. greer. i have no recollection of ever telling the agents that i said that; no, sir. if i said it, i don't remember saying it. the governor was the person that i knew was--when we were first in trouble, when i see the governor. mr. specter. to the best of your current recollection, did you notice that the president had been hit? mr. greer. no, sir; i didn't know how badly he was injured or anything other than that. i didn't know. mr. specter. did you know at all, from the glance which you have described that he had been hit or injured in any way? mr. greer. i knew he was injured in some way, but i didn't know how bad or what. mr. specter. how did you know that? mr. greer. if i remember now, i just don't remember how i knew, but i knew we were in trouble. i knew that he was injured, but i can't remember, recollect, just how i knew there were injuries in there. i didn't know who all was hurt, even. mr. specter. are you able to recollect whether you saw the president after the shots as you were proceeding toward parkland hospital? mr. greer. no; i don't remember ever seeing him any more until i got to the hospital, and he was lying across the seat, you know, and that is the first i had seen of him. mr. specter. your best recollection is, then, that you had the impression he was injured but you couldn't ascertain the source of that information? mr. greer. right. i couldn't ascertain the source. representative ford. did you hear the president say anything after the first shot? mr. greer. no, sir; i never heard him say anything; never at any time did i ever hear him say anything. representative boggs. did mrs. kennedy say anything to you while you were driving to the hospital? mr. greer. no, sir; she didn't. representative boggs. did mrs. connally say anything to you? mr. greer. no. mrs. connally didn't say anything, either. there is quite a little distance between the front and the back seat of that car. as you know, it is feet long, and you are quite a little bit away, and there was the sirens were all going. the following car had a siren wide--the big one on the fender was wide open. there wasn't much chance for me to hear anything, and i was really occupied with getting there just as fast as i could and not seeing that anything happened, avoid an accident or anything like that. mr. specter. did you have a siren on your car? mr. greer. i didn't have mine going. there is a siren on that car, but i didn't even reach down to work it. representative boggs. there was another agent in the car with you? mr. greer. mr. kellerman; yes, sir. representative boggs. and after the first shot, did he say to speed up or what? mr. greer. i believe it was at the second that he and i both simultaneously--he said, "get out of here fast," and i speeded up as fast as i could then and as fast as the car would go. the chairman. if there are no further questions, thank you very much, mr. greer. mr. greer. thank you, sir. the chairman. you may be excused. mr. greer. thank you, sir. the chairman. we will take a short recess. (short recess.) the chairman. mr. hill, come right in, sir. would you raise your right hand, please, and be sworn? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before this commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. hill. i do. the chairman. would you be seated, please, mr. hill? mr. hill. thank you, sir. the chairman. mr. specter. testimony of clinton j. hill, special agent, secret service mr. specter. mr. hill, would you state your full name for the record, please? mr. hill. clinton j. hill. mr. specter. how old are you, sir? mr. hill. thirty-two. mr. specter. what is your educational background? mr. hill. i went to secondary educational high school in washburn, n. dak., and then went on to concordia college, moorehead, minn. i was a history and education major, with a minor in physical education. mr. specter. what year were you graduated? mr. hill. . mr. specter. what have you done since the time of graduation from college, mr. hill? mr. hill. i went into the army in ; remained in the army until . then i couldn't determine what i wanted to do, whether to go to law school or not, and i took a couple of odd jobs. i worked for a finance company at one time. then i went to work for the chicago, burlington & quincy railroad as a special agent in the spring of , and entered the secret service in september . mr. specter. you have been with the secret service since september to the present time? mr. hill. yes; i have. mr. specter. will you outline for the commission your duties with the secret service during your tenure there? mr. hill. i entered the secret service in denver, and during that period i did both investigative and protection work. i was assigned to mrs. doud, the mother-in-law of president eisenhower. i attended the treasury law enforcement school during my first year, and was sent to the white house for a -day temporary assignment at the white house in june . in november of , november , i was transferred to the white house on a permanent basis as a special agent assigned to the white house detail. i have been at the white house since that time. mr. specter. now, were you assigned to duties on the trip of president kennedy to texas in november ? mr. hill. yes, sir; i was. mr. specter. did you have any special duty assigned to you at that time? mr. hill. yes, sir. mr. specter. in connection with the trip? mr. hill. i was responsible for the protection of mrs. kennedy. mr. specter. and, in a general way, what does that sort of an assignment involve? mr. hill. i tried to remain as close to her at all times as possible, and in this particular trip that meant being with the president because all of their doings on this trip were together rather than separate. i would go over her schedule to make sure she knows what she is expected to do; discuss it with her; remain in her general area all the time; protect her from any danger. mr. specter. would you tell us, in a general way, what were the activities of the president and mrs. kennedy on the morning of friday, november , before they arrived in dallas? mr. hill. i went to the fifth floor, i believe it was, where the president and mrs. kennedy were staying in the texas hotel in fort worth at : in the morning. president kennedy was to go downstairs and across the street to make a speech to a gathering in a parking lot. i remained on the floor during the period the president was gone. it was raining outside, i recall. about : i received word from special agent duncan that the president requested mrs. kennedy to come to the mezzanine, where a breakfast was being held in his honor, and where he was about to speak. i went in and advised mrs. kennedy of this, and took her down to where the president was speaking; remained with her adjacent to the head table in this particular area during the speech; and accompanied she and the president back up to the, i believe it was, the fifth floor of the hotel, their residential area; remained on that floor until we left, went downstairs, got into the motorcade, and departed the hotel for the airport to leave fort worth for dallas. we were airborne approximately : , i believe, in air force . i was in the aft compartment, which is part of the residential compartment, and we arrived in dallas at : . mr. specter. would you describe, in a general way, what the president and mrs. kennedy did upon arrival in dallas? mr. hill. they debarked the rear ramp of the aircraft first, followed by governor and mrs. connally, various congressmen and senators. and special agent in charge kellerman and myself went down the ramp. there was a small reception committee at the foot of the ramp, and somebody gave mrs. kennedy some red roses, i recall. i walked immediately to the followup car and placed my topcoat, which is a raincoat, and small envelope containing some information concerning the dallas stop in the followup car, returning to where the president and mrs. kennedy were at that time greeting a crippled lady in a wheelchair. mr. specter. what do you estimate the size of the crowd to have been at dallas that morning? mr. hill. at the airport? mr. specter. yes, sir. mr. hill. it is rather difficult to say. they were behind a chain-link fence, not on the airport ramp itself, and they were jammed up against the fence holding placards, and many young people in the crowd. i would say there were probably , people there. mr. specter. at approximately what time did the motorcade depart from love field to dallas? mr. hill. approximately : . mr. specter. do you know approximately how many automobiles there were in the motorcade? mr. hill. no, sir; i do not. mr. specter. in which car in the motorcade were you positioned? mr. hill. i was working the followup car, which is the car immediately behind the presidential car. mr. specter. and how many cars are there ahead of the followup car, then, in the entire motorcade? mr. hill. there was a lead car ahead of the president's car, the president's car, then this particular followup car. mr. specter. do you know whether there was any car in advance of the car termed the lead car? mr. hill. there could have been a pilot car, but i am not sure. mr. specter. now, approximately how far in front of the president's car did the lead car stay during the course of the motorcade? mr. hill. i would say a half block, maybe. mr. specter. and how far was the president's car in front of the president's followup car during the course of the motorcade? mr. hill. approximately feet. mr. specter. is there some well-established practice as to the spacing between the president's car and the president's followup car? mr. hill. it would depend upon speed. we attempt to stay as close to the president's car as practical. at high rates of speed it is rather difficult to stay close because of the danger involved. slow speeds, the followup car stays as close as possible so that the agents on the followup car can get to the presidential car as quickly as possible. mr. specter. what was the first car to the rear of the president's followup car? mr. hill. the vice-presidential automobile. mr. specter. what car was immediately behind the vice president's automobile? mr. hill. the vice-presidential followup car. mr. specter. do you know what cars in the dallas motorcade followed the vice president's followup car? mr. hill. well, i couldn't say which car any individual rode in after that particular automobile, but i could say they were occupied by members of the staff, both president kennedy's and vice president johnson's; congressmen and senators who were on this particular trip; newspaper personnel who were on this trip. mr. specter. would you identify the occupants of the president's followup car and indicate where each was in the automobile. mr. hill. the car itself was driven by special agent sam kinney, and assistant to the special agent in charge emory roberts was riding in the right front seat. i was assigned to work the left running board of the automobile, the forward portion of that running board. mcintyre was assigned to work the rear portion of the left running board. special agent john ready was assigned the forward portion of the right running board; special agent paul landis was assigned the rear portion of the right running board. there were two jump seats, and they were occupied by two presidential aides, mr. o'donnell and mr. powers. mr. powers was sitting on the right-hand side; mr. o'donnell on the left. the rear seat was occupied, left rear by special agent hickey, right rear, special agent bennett. mr. specter. how were the agents armed at that time? mr. hill. all the agents were armed with their hand weapons. mr. specter. and is there any weapon in the automobile in addition to the hand weapons? mr. hill. yes. there is an ar- , which is an automatic rifle, and a shotgun. mr. specter. and where is the ar- kept? mr. hill. between the two agents in the rear seat. mr. specter. how about the shotgun; where is that kept? mr. hill. in a compartment immediately in front of the jump seats. mr. specter. is the president's followup car a specially constructed automobile? mr. hill. yes, sir; it is. mr. specter. and what is the make and model and general description of that vehicle? mr. hill. it is a cadillac, nine-passenger touring sedan. it is a convertible type. mr. specter. was that automobile flown in specially from washington for the occasion? mr. hill. yes; it was, sir. mr. specter. do you know how that automobile was transported to dallas, tex.? mr. hill. generally, it is flown in a c- by the air force. i am not sure how on this particular occasion. mr. specter. will you describe, in a general way, the composition of the crowds en route from love field down to the center of dallas, please? mr. hill. well, when we left love field, we went away from the crowd to get to the exit point at love field, and there were no crowds at all, and then we, departing love field, found the crowds were sporadic. there were people here and there. some places they had built up and other places they were thinned out. the speed of the motorcade was adjusted accordingly. whenever there were large groups of people, the motorcade slowed down to give the people an opportunity to view the president. when there were not many people along the side of the street, we speeded up. we didn't really hit the crowds until we hit main street. mr. specter. what is your best estimate of the maximum speed of the automobile from the time you left love field until the time you arrived at downtown dallas? mr. hill. i would say we never ran any faster than to miles per hour. mr. specter. what is your best estimate of the minimum speed during this same interval? mr. hill. twelve to fifteen miles per hour. we did stop. mr. specter. on what occasion did you stop? mr. hill. between love field and main street, downtown dallas, on the right-hand side of the street there were a group of people with a long banner which said, "please, mr. president, stop and shake our hands." and the president requested the motorcade to stop, and he beckoned to the people and asked them to come and shake his hand, which they did. mr. specter. did the president disembark from his automobile at that time? mr. hill. no; he remained in his seat. mr. specter. at that time what action, if any, did you take? mr. hill. i jumped from the followup car and ran up to the left rear portion of the automobile with my back toward mrs. kennedy viewing those persons on the left-hand side of the street. mr. specter. what action was taken by any other secret service agent which you observed at that time? mr. hill. special agent ready, who was working the forward portion of the right running board, did the same thing, only on the president's side, placed his back toward the car, and viewed the people facing the president. assistant in charge kellerman opened the door of the president's car and stepped out on the street. mr. specter. what action was taken by special agent mcintyre, if you know? mr. hill. i do not know. mr. specter. how about special agent landis? mr. hill. i do not know. mr. specter. what is your normal procedure for action in the event the president's car is stopped, as it did in that event? mr. hill. special agent mcintyre would normally jump off the car and run to the forward portion of the left-hand side of the car; special agent landis would move to the right-hand forward portion of the automobile. mr. specter. did anything else which was unusual occur en route from love field to the downtown area of dallas? mr. hill. before we hit main street? mr. specter. yes, sir. mr. hill. not that i recall. mr. specter. did you have any occasion to leave the president's followup car at any time? mr. hill. when we finally did reach main street, the crowds had built up to a point where they were surging into the street. we had motorcycles running adjacent to both the presidential automobile and the followup car, as well as in front of the presidential automobile, and because of the crowds in the street, the president's driver, special agent greer, was running the car more to the left-hand side of the street more than he was to the right to keep the president as far away from the crowd as possible, and because of this the motorcycles on the left-hand side could not get past the crowd and alongside the car, and they were forced to drop back. i jumped from the followup car, ran up and got on top of the rear portion of the presidential automobile to be close to mrs. kennedy in the event that someone attempted to grab her from the crowd or throw something in the car. mr. specter. when you say the rear portion of the automobile, can you, by referring to commission exhibit no. , heretofore identified as the president's automobile, specify by penciled "x" where you stood? mr. hill. yes, sir [indicating]. mr. specter. will you describe for the record just what area it is back there on which you stood? mr. hill. that is a step built into the rear bumper of the automobile, and on top of the rear trunk there is a handguard which you grab for and hang onto when you are standing up. mr. specter. are identical objects of those descriptions existing on each side of the president's car? mr. hill. yes, sir; they do. mr. specter. did you have any other occasion en route from love field to downtown dallas to leave the followup car and mount that portion of the president's car? mr. hill. i did the same thing approximately four times. mr. specter. what are the standard regulations and practices, if any, governing such an action on your part? mr. hill. it is left to the agent's discretion more or less to move to that particular position when he feels that there is a danger to the president; to place himself as close to the president or the first lady as my case was, as possible, which i did. mr. specter. are those practices specified in any written documents of the secret service? mr. hill. no; they are not. mr. specter. now, had there been any instruction or comment about your performance of that type of a duty with respect to anything that president kennedy himself had said in the period immediately preceding the trip to texas? mr. hill. yes, sir; there was. the preceding monday, the president was on a trip in tampa, fla., and he requested that the agents not ride on either of those two steps. mr. specter. and to whom did the president make that request? mr. hill. assistant special agent in charge boring. mr. specter. was assistant special agent in charge boring the individual in charge of that trip to florida? mr. hill. he was riding in the presidential automobile on that trip in florida, and i presume that he was. i was not along. mr. specter. well, on that occasion would he have been in a position comparable to that occupied by special agent kellerman on this trip to texas? mr. hill. yes, sir; the same position. mr. specter. and special agent boring informed you of that instruction by president kennedy? mr. hill. yes, sir; he did. mr. specter. did he make it a point to inform other special agents of that same instruction? mr. hill. i believe that he did, sir. mr. specter. and, as a result of what president kennedy said to him, did he instruct you to observe that presidential admonition? mr. hill. yes, sir. mr. specter. how, if at all, did that instruction of president kennedy affect your action and--your action in safeguarding him on this trip to dallas? mr. hill. we did not ride on the rear portions of the automobile. i did on those four occasions because the motorcycles had to drop back and there was no protection on the left-hand side of the car. mr. specter. when the president's automobile was proceeding in downtown dallas, what was the ordinary speed of the automobile, based on your best estimate? mr. hill. we were running approximately to miles per hour, i would say. mr. specter. i show you a document which we have marked as commission exhibit no. , which is an aerial photograph identical with the photograph already marked as commission exhibit no. . (the photograph referred to was marked exhibit no. for identification.) mr. specter. i ask you if, referring only to exhibit , you are able to identify what that scene is. mr. hill. yes, sir; i am. mr. specter. are you able to indicate the route which the president's motorcade followed through that area? mr. hill. yes, sir; i am. mr. specter. and what does that scene depict--what city is it? mr. hill. that is dallas, tex. it shows main street, houston street, and elm street. mr. specter. will you write on the picture itself where main street is? would you now write, as best you can, which street is houston street? mr. hill. yes, sir. mr. specter. and would you now write which street is elm? mr. hill. yes, sir. (at this point, representative ford entered the hearing room.) mr. specter. now, would you indicate, if you know, which is a generally northerly direction on that picture? mr. hill. yes, sir. mr. specter. all right. what was the condition of the crowd as the motorcade made a right-hand turn off of main street onto houston? mr. hill. the crowd was very large on main street, and it was thinning down considerably when we reached the end of it, and turned right on houston street. noticeably on my side of the car, which was the left-hand side of the street. mr. specter. and what is your best estimate as to the speed of the president's car at the time it made the right-hand turn onto houston street? mr. hill. in the curve? mr. specter. the speed--in the curve itself; yes. mr. hill. we were running generally to miles per hour. i would say that in the curve we perhaps slowed to maybe miles per hour. mr. specter. and how far behind the president's car was the presidential followup car as the turn was made onto houston street? mr. hill. four to five feet, at the most. mr. specter. i show you a photograph of a building which has already been marked as commission exhibit no. , and ask you if at this time you can identify what that building is. mr. hill. i believe i can, sir; yes. mr. specter. and what building is it? mr. hill. it is the texas school book depository. mr. specter. now, does that building appear on the commission exhibit no. ? mr. hill. yes, sir; it does. mr. specter. did you have any occasion to notice the texas school book depository building as you proceeded in a generally northerly direction on houston street? mr. hill. yes, sir. it was immediately in front of us and to our left. mr. specter. did you notice anything unusual about it? mr. hill. nothing more unusual than any other building along the way. mr. specter. what is your general practice, if any, in observing such buildings along the route of a presidential motorcade? mr. hill. we scan the buildings and look specifically for open windows, for people hanging out, and there had been, on almost every building along the way, people hanging out, windows open. mr. specter. and did you observe, as you recollect at this moment, any open windows in the texas school depository building? mr. hill. yes, sir; there were. mr. specter. are you able to recollect specifically which windows were open at this time? mr. hill. no, sir; i cannot. mr. specter. what was the condition of the crowd along the streets, if any, along elm street, in front of the texas school book depository building? mr. hill. on the left-hand side of the street, which is the side i was on, the crowd was very thin. and it was a general park area. there were people scattered throughout the entire park. mr. specter. now, what is your best estimate of the speed of the president's automobile as it turned left off of houston onto elm street? mr. hill. we were running still to miles per hour, but in the curve i believe we slowed down maybe to , maybe to . mr. specter. how far back of the president's automobile was the presidential followup car when the president's followup car had just straightened out on elm street? mr. hill. approximately feet. mr. specter. now, as the motorcade proceeded at that point, tell us what happened. mr. hill. well, as we came out of the curve, and began to straighten up, i was viewing the area which looked to be a park. there were people scattered throughout the entire park. and i heard a noise from my right rear, which to me seemed to be a firecracker. i immediately looked to my right, and, in so doing, my eyes had to cross the presidential limousine and i saw president kennedy grab at himself and lurch forward and to the left. mr. specter. why don't you just proceed, in narrative form, to tell us? representative boggs. this was the first shot? mr. hill. this is the first sound that i heard; yes, sir. i jumped from the car, realizing that something was wrong, ran to the presidential limousine. just about as i reached it, there was another sound, which was different than the first sound. i think i described it in my statement as though someone was shooting a revolver into a hard object--it seemed to have some type of an echo. i put my right foot, i believe it was, on the left rear step of the automobile, and i had a hold of the handgrip with my hand, when the car lurched forward. i lost my footing and i had to run about three or four more steps before i could get back up in the car. between the time i originally grabbed the handhold and until i was up on the car, mrs. kennedy--the second noise that i heard had removed a portion of the president's head, and he had slumped noticeably to his left. mrs. kennedy had jumped up from the seat and was, it appeared to me, reaching for something coming off the right rear bumper of the car, the right rear tail, when she noticed that i was trying to climb on the car. she turned toward me and i grabbed her and put her back in the back seat, crawled up on top of the back seat and lay there. mr. specter. now, referring to commission exhibit no. , would you mark an "x", as best you can, at the spot where the president's automobile was at the time the first shot occurred? mr. hill. approximately there. mr. specter. and would you mark a "y" at the approximate position where the president's car was at the second shot you have described? what is your best estimate of the speed of the president's car at the precise time of the first shot, mr. hill? mr. hill. we were running between to miles per hour, but no faster than miles per hour. mr. specter. how many shots have you described that you heard? mr. hill. two. mr. specter. did you hear any more than two shots? mr. hill. no, sir. mr. specter. and what is your best estimate of the speed of the president's automobile at the time of the second shot? mr. hill. approximately the same speed as that of the first--although at the time that i jumped on the car, the car had surged forward. the president at that time had been shot in the head. mr. specter. when, in relationship to the second shot, did the car accelerate--that is, the president's car? mr. hill. almost simultaneously. mr. specter. you testified just a moment ago that the president grabbed at himself immediately after the first noise which you described as sounding like a firecracker. mr. hill. yes, sir. mr. specter. would you tell us with more particularity in what way he grabbed at himself? mr. hill. he grabbed in this general area. mr. specter. you are indicating that your right hand is coming up to your--to the throat? mr. hill. yes, sir. mr. specter. and the left hand crosses right under the right hand. mr. hill. to the chest area. mr. specter. to the chest area. was there any movement of the president's head or shoulders immediately after the first shot, that you recollect? mr. hill. yes, sir. immediately when i saw him, he was like this, and going left and forward. mr. specter. indicating a little fall to the left front. mr. hill. yes, sir. representative boggs. this was after a head wound? mr. hill. no, sir. representative boggs. before the head wound? mr. hill. yes, sir; this was the first shot. mr. specter. now, what is your best estimate on the timespan between the first firecracker-type noise you heard and the second shot which you have described? mr. hill. approximately seconds. mr. specter. now, did the impact on the president's head occur simultaneously, before, or after the second noise which you have described? mr. hill. almost simultaneously. representative ford. did you see the president put his hands to his throat and chest while you were still on the followup car, or after you had left it? mr. hill. as i was leaving. and that is one of the reasons i jumped, because i saw him grab himself and pitch forward and to the left. i knew something was wrong. representative ford. it was seconds from the firecracker noise that you think you got to the automobile? mr. hill. until i reached the handhold, had placed my foot on the left rear step. mr. specter. when, in relationship to the second shot, did mrs. kennedy move out of the rear seat? mr. hill. just after it. mr. specter. you say that it appeared that she was reaching as if something was coming over to the rear portion of the car, back in the area where you were coming to? mr. hill. yes, sir. mr. specter. was there anything back there that you observed, that she might have been reaching for? mr. hill. i thought i saw something come off the back, too, but i cannot say that there was. i do know that the next day we found the portion of the president's head. mr. specter. where did you find that portion of the president's head? mr. hill. it was found in the street. it was turned in, i believe, by a medical student or somebody in dallas. mr. specter. did you have any difficulty maintaining your balance on the back of the car after you had come up on the top of it? mr. hill. not until we turned off to enter the parkland hospital. mr. specter. now, what action did you take specifically with respect to placing mrs. kennedy back in the rear seat? mr. hill. i simply just pushed and she moved--somewhat voluntarily--right back into the same seat she was in. the president--when she had attempted to get out onto the trunk of the car, his body apparently did not move too much, because when she got back into the car he was at that time, when i got on top of the car, face up in her lap. mr. specter. and that was after she was back in the rear seat? mr. hill. yes, sir. mr. specter. and where were the president's legs at that time? mr. hill. inside the car. mr. specter. now, what, if anything, did you observe as to the condition of governor connally at that time? mr. hill. after going under this underpass, i looked forward to the jump seats, where mrs. connally and governor connally were sitting. mrs. connally had been leaning over her husband. and i had no idea that he had been shot. and when she leaned back at one time, i noticed that his coat was unbuttoned, and that the lower portion of his abdomen was completely covered with blood. mr. specter. when was it that you first observed that? mr. hill. just after going under the underpass. mr. specter. were you able to observe anything which was occurring on the overpass as the president's motorcade moved toward the overpass? mr. hill. from the time i got on the back of the presidential limousine, i didn't really pay any attention to what was going on outside the automobile. mr. specter. had you noticed the overpass prior to the time you got on the presidential automobile? mr. hill. yes; i had scanned it. mr. specter. and do you recollect what, if anything, you observed on the overpass at that time? mr. hill. there were some people there, but i also noticed there was a policeman there. mr. specter. approximately how many people would you say were there? mr. hill. very few, i would say--maybe five, six. mr. specter. and how were you able to identify that there was a policeman there? mr. hill. he was wearing the uniform--presumably a policeman. mr. specter. what color uniform was it? mr. hill. i think it was blue of some shade. mr. specter. did you identify it at that time as being of the identical color which other dallas policemen were wearing whom you had observed in the area? mr. hill. that's correct, sir. mr. specter. can you characterize the type of acceleration which the car made after it started to speed forward--that is, the presidential car. mr. hill. well, the initial surge was quite violent, because it almost jerked me off the left rear step board. then after that it was apparently gradual, because i did not notice it any more. mr. specter. what is your best estimate of the distance from the time of the shooting to parkland hospital? mr. hill. in time or---- mr. specter. time and distance. mr. hill. distance, i have no idea. mr. specter. how about time? mr. hill. i would say roughly minutes. mr. specter. did mrs. kennedy say anything as you were proceeding from the time of the shooting to parkland hospital? mr. hill. at the time of the shooting, when i got into the rear of the car, she said, "my god, they have shot his head off." between there and the hospital she just said, "jack, jack, what have they done to you," and sobbed. mr. specter. was there any conversation by anybody else in the president's automobile from the time of the shooting to the arrival at parkland hospital? mr. hill. i heard special agent kellerman say on the radio, "to the nearest hospital, quick." mr. specter. any other comment? mr. hill. he said, "we have been hit." mr. specter. now, was there any other comment you heard special agent kellerman make? mr. hill. not that i recall. mr. specter. did special agent greer say anything? mr. hill. no, sir. mr. specter. mrs. connally say anything? mr. hill. no, sir. representative boggs. was governor connally conscious? mr. hill. yes, sir; he was. mr. specter. did governor connally say anything? mr. hill. no, sir. mr. specter. did president kennedy say anything? mr. hill. no, sir. mr. specter. what is your best estimate on the speed at which the president's car traveled from the point of the shooting to parkland hospital? mr. hill. it is a little bit hard for me to judge, since i was lying across the rear portion of the automobile. i had no trouble staying in that particular position--until we approached the hospital, i recall, i believe it was a left-hand turn and i started slipping off to the right-hand portion of the car. so i would say that we went , maybe at the most. mr. specter. were you able to secure a handhold or a leg-hold or any sort of a hold on the automobile as you moved forward? mr. hill. yes, sir. i had my legs--i had my body above the rear seat, and my legs hooked down into the rear seat, one foot outside the car. mr. specter. what is your best estimate of the time of the assassination itself? mr. hill. approximately : . mr. specter. i am not sure whether i asked you about this--about how long did it take you to get from the shooting to the hospital? mr. hill. approximately minutes. mr. specter. what did you observe as to president kennedy's condition on arrival at the hospital? mr. hill. the right rear portion of his head was missing. it was lying in the rear seat of the car. his brain was exposed. there was blood and bits of brain all over the entire rear portion of the car. mrs. kennedy was completely covered with blood. there was so much blood you could not tell if there had been any other wound or not, except for the one large gaping wound in the right rear portion of the head. mr. specter. did you have any opportunity to observe the front part of his body, to see whether there was any tear or rip in the clothing on the front? mr. hill. i saw him lying there in the back of the car, when i was immediately above him. i cannot recall noticing anything that was ripped in the forward portion of his body. mr. specter. what action, if any, did you take to shield the president's body? mr. hill. i kept myself above the president and mrs. kennedy on the trip to parkland. mr. specter. did you do anything with your coat upon arrival at parkland hospital to shield the president? mr. hill. yes, sir. i removed it and covered the president's head and upper chest. mr. specter. what, if anything, did you observe as to governor connally's condition on arrival at parkland? mr. hill. he was conscious. there was a large amount of blood in the lower abdominal area. he was helped from the automobile to the stretcher, and i do not recall him saying anything, but i know that he was conscious. he was wheeled immediately into, i think, emergency room no. . mr. specter. and who was removed first from the automobile? mr. hill. governor connally. mr. specter. how long after the president's car arrived at parkland hospital did medical personnel come to the scene to remove the victims? mr. hill. seconds. they were there when we were there almost--almost simultaneously with the arrival. mr. specter. do you know where president kennedy was taken in the hospital? mr. hill. yes, sir. i accompanied he, and mrs. kennedy to the emergency room. mr. specter. now, tell us what you did at the hospital from the time of arrival on, please. mr. hill. i went into the emergency room with the president, but it was so small, and there were so many people in there that i decided i had better leave and let the doctors take care of the situation. so i walked outside; asked for the nearest telephone; walked to the nearest telephone. about that time special agent in charge kellerman came outside and said, "get the white house." i asked special agent lawson for the local number in dallas of the white house switchboard, which he gave to me. i called the switchboard in dallas; asked for the line to be open to washington, and remain open continuously. and then i asked for special agent in charge behn's office. mr. kellerman came out of the emergency room about that time, took the telephone and called special agent in charge behn that we had had a double tragedy; that both governor connally and president kennedy had been shot. and that was about as much as he said. i then took the telephone and shortly thereafter mr. kellerman came out of the emergency room and said, "clint, tell jerry this is unofficial and not for release, but the man is dead." which i did. during the two calls, i talked to the attorney general, who attempted to reach me, and told him that his brother had been seriously wounded; that we would keep him advised as to his condition. mr. specter. where was mrs. kennedy all this time, if you know? mr. hill. immediately upon arrival, she went into the emergency room. and a few minutes afterward, she was convinced to wait outside, which she did, remained there the rest of the period of time that we were there. mr. specter. and was there any pronouncement that the president had died? mr. hill. not that i know of. apparently there was. i was requested by mr. o'donnell, one of the presidential assistants, to obtain a casket, because they wanted to return to washington immediately. i contacted the administrator of the hospital and asked him to take me where i could telephone the nearest mortuary, which i did, requested that their best available casket be brought to the emergency entrance in my name immediately. mr. specter. and what action was taken as a result of that request by you? mr. hill. the casket did arrive from the o'neal mortuary, inc., in their own hearse, which we then wheeled into the emergency room. i left the emergency room and asked that two of our agents, special agent sulliman and assistant special agent in charge stout clear all the corridors, and i checked the closest and most immediate route to the ambulance. we took the body from the hospital and departed the parkland hospital about : p.m. the ambulance was driven by special agent berger. special agent in charge kellerman and assistant special agent in charge stout were riding in the front seat; mrs. kennedy, dr. burkley, the president's body, and myself rode in the rear portion of the ambulance. mr. specter. approximately how long did it take you to reach the airplane at love field? mr. hill. we arrived at love field at : . mr. specter. and were you present during the swearing-in ceremonies of president johnson? mr. hill. i was aboard the aircraft; yes, sir. mr. specter. did you witness those ceremonies? mr. hill. well, the presidential compartment was so small that not all persons on the aircraft could get in. i was in the forward portion of the aircraft, right adjacent to the area that the president was sworn in. mr. specter. do you know the time of the swearing in? mr. hill. : . mr. specter. and what time did the presidential aircraft depart? mr. hill. : . mr. specter. do you know what time it arrived in the washington area? mr. hill. : , i believe, sir. mr. specter. and where did it land? mr. hill. we landed at andrews air force base. mr. specter. and what action, if any, in connection with this matter did you take following landing? mr. hill. i assisted mrs. kennedy and the attorney general, who had joined her at that time, into the ambulance bearing the president's body, and i entered the automobile immediately behind the ambulance with dr. john walsh, mrs. kennedy's physician, and members of president kennedy's staff. mr. specter. and where did you go then? mr. hill. immediately to bethesda naval hospital. mr. specter. and did you stay with the president's family at that time? mr. hill. when we arrived there, i went to the th floor with mrs. kennedy, and i remained with mrs. kennedy except for one time when i was requested to come to the morgue to view the president's body. mr. specter. and did you view the president's body? mr. hill. yes, sir. mr. specter. what action did you take following the time you viewed the president's body in the morgue? mr. hill. after the viewing of the president's body? mr. specter. yes. mr. hill. i returned to the th floor and remained with mrs. kennedy until we departed the hospital. representative boggs. may i ask a question? at the hospital in texas, you had seen--had you seen the whole body, or just the back of the president's head? mr. hill. i had seen the whole body, but he was still cold when i saw him. representative boggs. at the morgue in bethesda he was not cold? mr. hill. yes, sir; the autopsy had been completed, and the lawler mortuary co. was preparing the body for placement in a casket. representative boggs. at this time did you see the whole body? mr. hill. yes, sir. representative boggs. did you see any other wound other than the head wound? mr. hill. yes, sir; i saw an opening in the back, about inches below the neckline to the right-hand side of the spinal column. representative boggs. was there a frontal neck injury? mr. hill. there was an area here that had been opened but---- mr. specter. you are indicating---- mr. hill. in the neck. it was my understanding at that time that this was done by a tracheotomy. mr. specter. what else, if anything, of importance did you do between the time you viewed the body in the morgue until the termination of your duties on that date, mr. hill? mr. hill. we handled all communications on the th floor, up to the th floor, for mrs. kennedy, members of her family, cabinet members who were there at that time, and secured the th floor for all personnel. no one was permitted there that we did not know. mr. specter. what time did you leave the th floor? mr. hill. i believe, sir, it was : , but i am not sure of the exact time. mr. specter. where did you go from there? mr. hill. we went downstairs to the rear of the hospital, where the body was placed in a naval ambulance. i entered an automobile immediately behind the ambulance. mrs. kennedy and the attorney general got into the rear of the ambulance with the body. mr. specter. and from there, where did you go? mr. hill. i accompanied them to the white house. mr. specter. and did that mark the termination of your duties for that day? mr. hill. no, sir. i remained on duty until approximately : in the morning; went home, changed clothes, and came back. mr. specter. i believe you testified as to the impression you had as to the source of the first shot. to be sure that the record is complete, what was your reaction as to where the first shot came from, mr. hill? mr. hill. right rear. mr. specter. and did you have a reaction or impression as to the source of point of origin of the second shot that you described? mr. hill. it was right, but i cannot say for sure that it was rear, because when i mounted the car it was--it had a different sound, first of all, than the first sound that i heard. the second one had almost a double sound--as though you were standing against something metal and firing into it, and you hear both the sound of a gun going off and the sound of the cartridge hitting the metal place, which could have been caused probably by the hard surface of the head. but i am not sure that that is what caused it. mr. specter. are you describing this double sound with respect to what you heard on the occasion of the second shot? mr. hill. the second shot that i heard; yes, sir. mr. specter. now, do you now or have you ever had the impression or reaction that there was a shot which originated from the front of the presidential car? mr. hill. no. mr. specter. that is all i have. the chairman. congressman ford, any questions you would like to ask? representative ford. no. representative boggs. i have no questions, mr. chief justice. the chairman. mr. craig. mr. craig. no, thank you, mr. chief justice. the chairman. if not, thank you very much. we appreciate your coming. mr. hill. thank you, mr. chief justice. the chairman. mr. youngblood, will you raise your right hand? do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before this commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. youngblood. i do, sir. the chairman. be seated, please. mr. specter will conduct the examination. testimony of rufus wayne youngblood, special agent, secret service mr. specter. will you state your full name for the record, please? mr. youngblood. rufus wayne youngblood. mr. specter. how old are you, mr. youngblood? mr. youngblood. forty. mr. specter. and by whom are you employed? mr. youngblood. the u.s. secret service. mr. specter. how long have you been so employed? mr. youngblood. since march of . mrs. specter. what is your educational background, sir? mr. youngblood. i graduated from georgia institute of technology. bachelor of industrial engineering. mr. specter. in what year? mr. youngblood. . mr. specter. how were you occupied from termination of your college work until starting with the secret service? mr. youngblood. i worked for bradshaws, inc., which was a refrigeration and air-conditioning concern in waycross, ga., and then worked for alvin lindstrom, who is a consulting mechanical engineer in atlanta, ga. mr. specter. and would you outline in general terms what your duties have been with the secret service since the time you joined them? mr. youngblood. i began in the secret service as a special agent, criminal investigator, and started off at the atlanta field office, and stayed there about a year and a half. this time was spent in investigation of government forged check cases, bond cases, counterfeiting, and similar investigations. (at this point, chief justice warren withdrew from the hearing room.) mr. youngblood. i came to the washington, dc. area, and worked in the washington field office, a continuation of the same type of work i had done in atlanta, plus the beginning of the protective work, working on temporary assignment at the white house detail. and then in i was assigned to the white house detail and worked there during the eisenhower administration about years, and returned to the atlanta field office for more years in that area, during which time president eisenhower would come to augusta and albany, and on two occasions on foreign trips i was called in. and after years in that field office, i returned to washington again, assigned to the white house detail. the last part of the eisenhower administration and the beginning of the kennedy administration. and in march of , i was assigned to the vice-presidential detail. this, at that time, was part of the washington field office. and i have been on an assignment with the vice-presidential detail since march , except for a -month period when i returned to the white house detail. and then back to the vice-presidential detail. but during this time, the vice-presidential detail changed from a field office assignment to a small independent office, and then, later, in october of , when legislation was passed, changing the laws relative to protection of the vice president, it became a larger detail. and i have been on the vice-presidential detail in the occurrence at dallas, and returned to the white house detail when mr. johnson became the president. and during this period of time, i have been a special agent, assistant special agent in charge, and was scheduled to be the special agent in charge of the vice-presidential detail. but due to what occurred in dallas, i went to the white house as an assistant special agent in charge. any other particulars? mr. specter. well, what was your rank at the time of the dallas trip, specifically on november , ? mr. youngblood. i was the assistant special agent in charge of the vice-presidential detail. (at this point, chief justice warren entered the hearing room.) mr. specter. and as such, were you responsible for the security of the vice president on that trip? mr. youngblood. yes, sir. mr. specter. now, what is your current rank? mr. youngblood. assistant special agent in charge of the white house detail. mr. specter. and, as such, do you hold one of the three positions of the assistant special agent in charge at the white house detail? mr. youngblood. yes, sir. mr. specter. and is that a rank comparable or exactly the same as that now held by special agent kellerman? mr. youngblood. yes, sir; he is senior to me, but it is a comparable rank. mr. specter. now, would you outline briefly and in general terms the activities of vice president johnson during the few days immediately before friday, november , ? mr. youngblood. on tuesday of that week we made a trip from the ranch to dallas, and we went by commercial plane--actually, from the ranch to austin in the vice president's plane, and from austin to dallas on a commercial plane. and while in dallas, he addressed the bottlers convention. and we returned to the plane, flew back to austin, then flew back to the ranch later that night, and remained at the ranch the next day and through thursday. and on thursday we went to san antonio, to join the group coming down from washington. mr. specter. now, when did vice president johnson then address the bottlers association in dallas? mr. youngblood. that was on tuesday. mr. specter. november ? mr. youngblood. i would have to look at a calendar. mr. specter. the preceding tuesday---- mr. youngblood. the preceding tuesday before the d; yes, sir. mr. specter. now, outline in a general way vice president johnson's activities on the morning of november d, before he arrived in dallas, if you would, please. mr. youngblood. well, our day began at the hotel in fort worth, where we had stayed overnight. and that morning we went down to a mezzanine floor where we met with president kennedy and a group of white house people. we went across from this hotel to a parking lot across the street, and they had a speaker stand there, and they addressed an assembled gathering. then they returned to the hotel, and there was a breakfast meeting in the hotel. they attended that. and, after that, we formed a motorcade and went to the field nearby in fort worth and boarded air force , and flew into dallas. mr. specter. approximately what time did the vice presidential plane arrive in dallas? mr. youngblood. about : . mr. specter. now, will you tell the commission in general terms what vice president johnson did upon arrival at the love field? mr. youngblood. all right, sir. this plane, air force , had on board the vice president and mrs. johnson and other officials. and we disembarked from the plane and were met by a welcoming committee composed of local dignitaries. and then we moved from that area where we disembarked over to the area of the ramp, which would be pushed out when air force , the president's plane, arrived. and when his plane did arrive, which was just a few minutes after ours, roughly minutes, we went out to the foot of the ramp and vice president johnson and mrs. johnson headed the reception committee to greet the people who came off of air force . mr. specter. approximately how long did the activities in greeting the crowd and the general reception last at love field on that morning? mr. youngblood. do you mean from the time we arrived on air force until we left? mr. specter. yes. mr. youngblood. i think it was about minutes. mr. specter. now, in what position in the motorcade was vice president johnson's automobile? mr. youngblood. we were following the presidential followup car, and the motorcade up to our point--there was a lead car, the president's car, the presidential followup car, and then our car. mr. specter. was there, to your knowledge, in advance of the lead car a car known as the pilot car? mr. youngblood. yes, sir; in all probability. this is a normal police arrangement. mr. specter. and would you identify the occupants of vice president johnson's car, indicating the positions in the car of each individual? mr. youngblood. all right, sir. the driver of this car was hurchel jacks, and he is with the state highway patrol. and behind him was senator ralph yarborough, from texas. and in the middle back seat was mrs. johnson. and on the right-hand side of the back seat, behind me, was the vice president. and i was in the front seat on the right-hand side. mr. specter. and what kind of an automobile was it? mr. youngblood. this was a lincoln convertible, a four-door convertible. mr. specter. is this a specially constructed automobile, or was it obtained locally for use during this trip? mr. youngblood. it was obtained locally for use during the trip. mr. specter. and what car immediately followed the vice president's automobile? mr. youngblood. the vice presidential detail had a followup car which followed our car. mr. specter. what kind of an automobile was that? mr. youngblood. it was either a lincoln or a mercury, i don't know the exact make. it was a ford product, and it was a four-door car. but it was closed. mr. specter. can you identify the occupants of that car, stating where each sat? mr. youngblood. the front seat, the driver, i think his name is rich. he is always on the texas highway patrol. in the front seat in the middle is cliff carter. he is an assistant to the vice president's staff. (at this point, representative boggs withdrew from the hearing room.) mr. youngblood. on the right-front side was jerry kivett. he is one of the agents on the vice presidential detail. and in the back seat, behind the driver, was warren taylor, and in the back seat on the other side was my agent, lem johns. mr. specter. do you know how many cars there were in the balance of the motorcade? mr. youngblood. no, sir; i don't. mr. specter. what was the maximum speed at which the motorcade proceeded from love field down to the downtown area of dallas? mr. youngblood. i doubt if the motorcade ever exceeded miles or miles an hour, and most of the time it was going slower than that. mr. specter. what was the minimum speed, would you estimate, during that time? mr. youngblood. we actually came to stops during this time. mr. specter. how many stops? mr. youngblood. more than one. two or more. mr. specter. what occurred during the course of those stops, or what prompted them? mr. youngblood. well, these stops were made by the presidential car to greet well-wishers, students on one particular occasion, and other groups of well-wishers, that were assembled along the streets. mr. specter. did vice president johnson greet anyone at those stops? mr. youngblood. he did greet them, but he didn't leave the car, i think. he remained in the car. i got out of the car and stood by the side of it on more than one occasion. he waved at people, and some did run over, and i think he did touch some. but he didn't leave the car. mr. specter. how far behind the president's followup car did the vice president's followup car drive? mr. youngblood. the vice president's followup car? mr. specter. pardon me--the vice president's automobile. mr. youngblood. we usually stayed on motorcades like this about two or three car lengths behind. mr. specter. and did your distance on this occasion conform to your customary practice of being that distance behind? mr. youngblood. yes, sir. mr. specter. and what is the reason, if any, for staying that distance behind the president's followup car? mr. youngblood. well, mainly so the crowd can see the vice president, and he can see them. if you are too close behind the presidential group, the crowd will be watching the president and will watch him as he goes by, and then they will miss the next man. so it gives the people a chance to recover and look back and see him, and they to see each other. mr. specter. i show you a photograph which has been marked as commission exhibit no. , and ask you if you are able to identify what that is a picture of. mr. youngblood. yes, sir. mr. specter. and what does that depict? mr. youngblood. well, it is a picture showing the main street, houston street and elm street, and the assassination occurred on elm street. mr. specter. are you familiar at this time with the identities of main, houston, and elm? mr. youngblood. yes, sir; when i have a map such as this ahead of me. mr. specter. all right. how far behind the president's automobile was the vice president's automobile in which you were riding when the vice president's automobile turned right off of main street onto houston? mr. youngblood. you ask again how far were we behind the president's car? did you mean, sir, how far were we behind the presidential followup car? mr. specter. no; i meant the president's car on that occasion. mr. youngblood. well, we were a distance of about two car lengths behind the followup car, and they were probably one car length behind the presidential car. but this would be a guess on my part. mr. specter. what was the situation with respect to the crowd which was lined up on houston and elm as you approached that intersection? mr. youngblood. on houston street, on the side where the tall building is, the crowd was still somewhat continuous. on the side which is the park side, the crowd was smaller. they did have some people there, but it wasn't continuous in the same way it was on the building side. mr. specter. what is your best estimate of the speed of the vice president's car as you proceeded down houston street toward elm street? mr. youngblood. well, our speed, of course, was governed by the vehicles in front of us, but i would say we had just made one turn, and it was only a block there before we would make another turn. it was approximately miles an hour, between and . mr. specter. i show you a photograph which has been marked as commission exhibit no. , and i ask you if you are now able to identify what that building is? mr. youngblood. yes, sir; i am now able to identify it. mr. specter. what is that building, sir? mr. youngblood. that is the school book depository building. mr. specter. where, as best you can recollect, was the vice president's car at the time the first shots were heard? and would you take commission exhibit no. and take the red pencil and mark as closely as you can the exact position on commission exhibit of the vice president's car with the capital letter "a" there? mr. youngblood. at the time of the first shot, did you say? mr. specter. yes, sir. mr. youngblood. it will be in this area here, i should think. mr. specter. i want the vice president's car at this time. mr. youngblood. well, this is what i am attempting to locate. it would be in the vicinity of this "x" right here, i do believe. mr. specter. all right. now, will you describe---- mr. youngblood. excuse me. you said put an "a" here? mr. specter. yes, please. will you describe just what occurred as the motorcade proceeded past the intersection of houston and elm streets? mr. youngblood. well, the crowd had begun to diminish, looking ahead and to the right the crowd became spotty. i mean it wasn't continuous at all, like it had been. as we were beginning to go down this incline, all of a sudden there was an explosive noise. i quickly observed unnatural movement of crowds, like ducking or scattering, and quick movements in the presidential followup car. so i turned around and hit the vice president on the shoulder and hollered, get down, and then looked around again and saw more of this movement, and so i proceeded to go to the back seat and get on top of him. i then heard two more shots. but i would like to say this. i would not be positive that i was back on that back seat before the second shot. but the vice president himself said i was. but--then in hearing these two more shots, i again had seen more movement, and i think someone else hit a siren--i heard the noise of a siren. i told the driver to close it up, and stick close to that car in front. and right away we started a hasty evacuation speed, and left this immediate area, and we were following close behind. and i had a radio which was on a baker frequency, where i could communicate back with the agents in my followup car. and they had a charlie frequency, which was on the same network of the presidential motorcade. and i called back and said i am switching to baker frequency--i said, "i am switching to charlie." and as i switched, i heard some transmission over the charlie sets saying for me to keep my man covered, and i heard kivett reply to emory roberts that he was covered, and i saw agents in the followup car, the presidential followup car signaling us to stay close. i asked the driver what his opinion was as to--i don't know for exact sure just where we were going, but i knew our best protection was to stay with that presidential followup crew. and i asked the driver if he had passed the trade mart. he said he passed it and we were going on to the hospital. and i heard indications over the radio that we were going to the hospital. we had a very fast ride there. i told the driver to go as fast as he could without having a wreck. there was some conversation between the vice president and myself while we were going to the hospital. i told him that i didn't know how serious it was up in the front car, but when we arrived at the hospital, i would like to get out of the car and go into the building and not stop, and for him to stay close to myself and the other agents. he agreed to. when we arrived at the hospital, we immediately went right in. as we stopped at the hospital, two of my agents from the vice presidential car, followup car, were coming up to meet us, and two from the presidential followup were coming to meet us, and, with this group, we proceeded into the hospital and then went into a room. i posted one man at the door and said, not to let anyone in unless he knew him, was certain of his identity. i told jerry kivett and warren taylor to pull all the shades and blinds, which they did. and they also busied themselves with evacuating a couple of people out of there. there was a nurse and a patient in there. mr. specter. before you go on, mr. youngblood, let me drop back and pick up a few of the details theretofore. what would your best estimate be of the speed of the vice president's car at the time you heard that first explosive noise? mr. youngblood. oh, approximately miles an hour. mr. specter. and had you maintained the distance which you have described heretofore behind the president's followup car? mr. youngblood. yes, generally. sometimes as we went around corners, we tried to close up the gap a little bit. but as soon as we got on a straight stretch, we would drop back two or three car lengths. mr. specter. well, at this particular time, what is your best recollection of the distance between the presidential followup car and the vice president's car? mr. youngblood. we are on elm street now. mr. specter. at the time the first shot occurred. mr. youngblood. we were two or three car lengths behind. mr. specter. and how far behind the president's car was the presidential followup car at the time of the first shot? mr. youngblood. i would think somewhat less than a car length. mr. specter. what is your best estimate of the total timespan between the first and third shots which you have already described? mr. youngblood. from the beginning to the last? mr. specter. yes, sir. mr. youngblood. i would think seconds. mr. specter. and you have described the first shot as being an explosive noise. how would you describe each of the second and third shots? mr. youngblood. well, there wasn't too much difference in the noise of the first shot and the last two. i am not really sure that there was a difference. but in my mind, i think i identified the last two positively as shots, whereas the first one i thought was just an explosive noise, and i didn't know whether it was a firecracker or a shot. it seems, as i try to think over it, there was more of a crack sound to the last two shots. that may have been distance, i don't know. mr. specter. now, as to time interval--was there longer or less time or the same between the first and second shots and the second and third shots? mr. youngblood. there seemed to be a longer span of time between the first and the second shot than there was between the second and third shot. mr. specter. now, did you have any reaction or impression as to the source or point of origin of the first shot? mr. youngblood. i didn't know where the source or the point of origin was, of course, but the sounds all came to my right and rear. mr. specter. now, how about as to the latter two shots, would the same apply, or would there be a different situation there? mr. youngblood. no; all of them seemed to sound that they were from the right. representative ford. did they sound on the surface or in the air or couldn't you discern? mr. youngblood. i couldn't say for certain. i don't know. mr. specter. now, did you then or have you ever had any contrary impression that the shots might have come from in front as opposed to the rear of the automobile? mr. youngblood. no, sir. mr. specter. now, you say that you hit the vice president's shoulder, and at that time you were indicating your left hand, i believe. mr. youngblood. yes, sir. mr. specter. which hand did you use in hitting the vice president's shoulder? mr. youngblood. my left, sir. mr. specter. and which shoulder of the vice president did you hit? mr. youngblood. his right, because i turned this way. i turned to my left, with the hand out, and then came into his right shoulder. mr. specter. and when you moved from the front to the rear seat, would you describe in as much detail as you can your relative position with respect to the position of president johnson's body? mr. youngblood. well, the vice president says that i vaulted over. it was more of a stepping over. and then i sat on top of him, he being crouched down somewhat. mr. specter. indicating towards the left? mr. youngblood. he moved towards the center, or towards his left, yes, sir, and down. and then i sat on this portion of his arm here. mr. specter. indicating the right upper portion of the arm from elbow to the shoulder? mr. youngblood. yes, sir; generally. mr. specter. and what were the positions of the other occupants of the back seat at the time you sat on the vice president? mr. youngblood. mrs. johnson more or less moved into a forward--just moved forward. and senator yarborough also moved forward, and possibly he moved over a little to the right. i am not sure. but we were all below the window level of the car. and those two generally were forward. but the vice president was forward and a little to his left. mr. specter. in what direction did you look when you were first sitting on the vice president? mr. youngblood. in what direction did i look? mr. specter. yes. mr. youngblood. almost all directions. mr. specter. did you have a reaction with respect to looking in the direction from which you thought the danger was emanating? mr. youngblood. i think i first looked to the right--but to the right, forward, up, as much as i could scan, and also the people in the presidential followup car. because i recall seeing at the time one of our agents, hickey, who was in the presidential followup car, in almost a standing position with an ar- looking back and up. mr. specter. are you able to fix the precise time of the assassination? mr. youngblood. i would say : . i was to keep the times. the vice president was asking me if we were running on time, and so forth. and so he asked me how much further, and i would call back to our followup car and ask them how many more miles and so forth. so, for this reason, i was at that time keeping up with the time very closely. and when we turned the corner, i noticed an illuminated clock sign on this building, which i now know is the school book depository building. and that clock indicated : . and the reason it is significant is because this was the time we were supposed to arrive at the trade mart. representative ford. as you looked at the school depository building, and noticed this clock, where is the clock? can you identify it? mr. youngblood. this, right here. representative ford. it is on top of the roof? mr. youngblood. yes, sir; right up here. representative ford. and this is after you turned from main street on to houston street? mr. youngblood. we were on houston street--just as soon as we got on houston street. and i looked up and i saw it there. representative ford. did you notice anything else on the building as you scanned it from the top down, or from the bottom up? mr. youngblood. i noticed open windows, and some people, i think. but i didn't notice this particular window. representative ford. you saw nothing unusual in any of the open windows that you noticed? mr. youngblood. well, sir, all through the day here we had been passing buildings with windows and people. and that i saw. but i saw nothing unusual. mr. specter. mr. youngblood, what is your best estimate as to the time it took to get to parkland hospital after the shooting occurred? mr. youngblood. i believe it was between and minutes, something of that nature. (at this point, representative ford withdrew from the hearing room.) mr. specter. and at what speed did your automobile proceed, based on your best estimate, en route from the shooting to parkland hospital? mr. youngblood. i believe we were going around or miles an hour at times. mr. specter. now, did you observe president kennedy or governor connally being removed from the president's automobile? mr. youngblood. no, sir; because i had--as i mentioned before--i had told the vice president, or suggested to the vice president that we did not want to linger, and get into the building as quickly as we could, and we would find out the condition of the other party after we got into a safe place. mr. specter. had they already been taken in by the time you arrived at the scene? mr. youngblood. no, sir; i don't hardly see how they could have been, because we arrived almost simultaneously with them. it was just a matter of opening the door and getting out of the car and hastily walking right on past. i think they were in the act of removing these people, but i don't think they would have had time to have removed them. mr. specter. did you enter the emergency entrance as well? mr. youngblood. yes, sir. mr. specter. now, i interrupted you before when you were describing the security arrangements which you were making on the room to which you took the vice president. would you continue and describe for us what occurred thereafter? mr. youngblood. at what point? mr. specter. i interrupted you. you were in the room, you had pulled the shades down, and were making security arrangements for the vice president. mr. youngblood. well, we were in a corner of this room, and there was the vice president, mrs. johnson, and myself at first, with agents kivett and warren taylor also in the big room, but not right over in the corner at the beginning. and shortly thereafter emory roberts came in. he was one of the white house detail agents. he told us that the situation--situation with president kennedy looked very bad. the vice president asked me what i thought--what we should do. and i said i think we should evacuate the hospital as soon as we can, and get on the plane, and return to washington. and emory roberts concurred. and the vice president agreed. but he wanted to get a better report on the condition and so forth. then we were joined by many others. congressman homer thornberry came in, and congressman brooks, and cliff carter, and the vice president had some conversations with these gentlemen. and at one time cliff went out and got coffee. and then mr. ken o'donnell and roy kellerman came down on one occasion, and ken o'donnell said for us to return to washington, and to go ahead and take the president's plane. the vice president was worried about mrs. kennedy. so mrs. johnson thought that she would go see mrs. kennedy and mrs. connally. she did. agents kivett and taylor went with her. then later, after she came back, ken o'donnell and roy kellerman came down again and told us that the president had died. mr. specter. about what time was that, sir? mr. youngblood. i don't know. i had told lem johns to try to keep up with all the times. i think it is a matter of record. i believe you have it in other documents. mr. specter. now, are you referring to a document which i will mark as commission exhibit ? (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. youngblood. this is our shift report, and this is the times that lem johns was keeping that day. he shows p.m., president kennedy died at parkland hospital. mr. specter. was that daily shift report prepared under your supervision, mr. youngblood? mr. youngblood. yes, sir. mr. specter. did you review it and approve it when it was completed, after the end of the workday on november ? mr. youngblood. well, not exactly at the end of the workday, sir. these agents would keep notes. and in this particular case you can see that this one, it says, "date completed, december " down at the bottom. that is when he got around to typing it. mr. specter. well, does this document bear your initial in any place? mr. youngblood. yes, sir; up at the top. the "ryw" is my initials. mr. specter. and does that signify your approval shortly after completion of the document? mr. youngblood. yes, sir. mr. specter. all right. would you go ahead and tell us what your activities were from the time you had learned that the president had died? mr. youngblood. well, when mr. o'donnell and roy kellerman told us that he had died, the vice president said, "well, how about mrs. kennedy?" o'donnell told the vice president that mrs. kennedy would not leave the hospital without the president's body. and o'donnell suggested we go to the plane and that they just come on the other plane. and i might add that, as a word of explanation, there were two jet planes, one air force , in which the president flew, and the other air force , in which the vice president and his party flew on. and o'donnell told us to go ahead and take air force . i believe this is mainly because air force has better communications equipment and so forth than the other planes. president johnson said that he didn't want to go off and leave mrs. kennedy in such a state. and so he agreed that we would go on to the airplane and board the plane and wait until mrs. kennedy and the body would come out. shall i go on? mr. specter. yes. proceed. did you then depart from parkland hospital? mr. youngblood. yes, sir; previous to all of this, i had johns, my agent, line up some unmarked police cars so that they would be ready when we did decide to evacuate the hospital. so we left the room and proceeded out to these cars. the car that we went in was driven by chief curry, the dallas police chief, and congressman thornberry was in the front seat, and the vice president and i were in the back seat. and i had told the vice president before we left the room that i would prefer that he stay below window level, and stay close with me as we went out, and that i would also prefer mrs. johnson to go in another car, but she would be accompanied by agents. and mrs. johnson did get in a second car. she was accompanied by warren taylor and jerry kivett and congressman brooks, and also glen bennett, another agent from the white house. and as we started to leave the hospital area, that is drive away, just as we started away, congressman thomas saw us leaving--i imagine he saw congressman thornberry, and he said, "wait for me." i don't think he saw the vice president. and i told the driver to continue. i didn't want to stop there in front of the hospital. but by this time congressman thomas was right over at the side of the car, and the vice president said, "stop and let him get in." so he got in in the front seat with congressman thornberry, having congressman thornberry move over closer to the driver. and then we started out again. this probably takes longer to tell about it than it actually took. it was about a -second stop. we started out again, and the vice president asked congressman thornberry to climb on over and get in the back seat, which he did, while the car was in motion. and then that put congressman thornberry behind the driver, and on the vice president's left, and i was on his right. and we continued on our way. we were momentarily stopped as we were leaving the hospital on this access road. there was a truck or delivery or something coming in there. we were stopped for one moment. but then the police got us on through, and we went on out to the main roads, and we were getting a motorcycle escort. and they started using the sirens, and the vice president and i both asked chief curry to discontinue the use of sirens, that we didn't want to attract attention. we were going on an unscheduled different route. we were not using any particular route. but in telling lem johns to get a car available, i told him to be sure and get a local driver who knew the area, a local policeman who could take us any route that we needed to go, and knew all the areas of evacuation and so forth. so we went on to the airport. but we did have him stop using the sirens. and just before arriving at the airport, i called on the radio and told air force to be ready to receive us, that we would be coming on board immediately. we arrived there and ran up the ramp onto the plane. mr. specter. and how long after that did the swearing-in ceremonies occur? approximately? mr. youngblood. i would say in the neighborhood of about or minutes after that. mr. specter. how long after the arrival of the vice president on the plane did the party of the late president kennedy and mrs. kennedy arrive at the plane? mr. youngblood. approximately--after we got on the plane, i would say it was approximately or minutes before mrs. kennedy and that party arrived. mr. specter. and how long after the swearing-in ceremonies did the plane take off for the washington area? mr. youngblood. after the swearing-in ceremonies, it took off immediately. it was just a matter of letting the people who had to get off the plane, such as judge hughes and chief curry disembark, and as soon as they had disembarked, we closed the door and started taxiing out. mr. specter. were there any conversations between vice president johnson and anyone else with respect to advice on the swearing-in ceremonies? mr. youngblood. yes, sir. i think probably the first thing the vice president did after he got on board the plane was to place a call to the attorney general. in fact, he talked to the attorney general, i believe, two times--at least two times. mr. specter. were you present when those conversations occurred? mr. youngblood. i was present when he placed the first call. i think he placed the first call from the bedroom there of the plane. then someone from the attorney general's office called back--not the attorney general, but someone from the office--and gave the wording of the oath. mr. specter. were you informed as to what advice vice president johnson received from mr. kennedy with respect to the time of swearing in? mr. youngblood. i heard him discussing this--because after we got on board the plane i told them to pull down the shades, and then i told the vice president, i am going to stick with you like glue while we are on the ground here. and so we were joined by mrs. johnson and then by congressman thornberry and thomas, and congressman brooks. and i heard them discussing about taking the oath immediately, right there in dallas. i heard the vice president ask about anyone in particular that should administer the oath. and as i gathered from conversation, it was anyone who was authorized to administer a federal oath. and then he put in calls to judge hughes, and he told me to expect judge hughes and to be sure she could get through the security lines. mr. specter. well, were you informed that attorney general kennedy advised vice president johnson that he should have himself sworn in as promptly as possible? mr. youngblood. well, as i said, i was in the area, in their immediate vicinity, when they were talking about it. and this is what i gathered from hearing them talk--that the attorney general had told him to go ahead and be sworn in there, as soon as possible. mr. specter. and upon arrival back in andrews air force base, what activity, if any, were you engaged in then, along with president johnson? mr. youngblood. well, on the plane, on the flight up here, there had been numerous radio contacts in making arrangements and so forth. but when we actually arrived, mrs. kennedy and the body were removed first by the lift that was provided, and then when the ramp was in place, our party disembarked from the plane, and then president johnson had a short statement that he was to make, and we went over to an area where the microphones were set up, and he made this brief statement. and then we proceeded from there to the awaiting helicopter, which was just a few yards away. we boarded the helicopter and flew in to the south grounds of the white house. mr. specter. and did you then accompany president johnson to his home? mr. youngblood. he didn't go to his home at that time; but the answer to your question is yes, when he did go later that night. you see, he went to his office in the eob, the executive office building, and conducted business there until in the vicinity of o'clock. and then he went home, at which time i accompanied him, and many other agents. mr. specter. would you describe briefly what security arrangements if any were instituted on that day for the vice president's daughters? mr. youngblood. yes, sir. while we were in the hospital, receiving these reports relative to president kennedy's condition, i asked mrs. johnson--i knew generally where luci and lynda were, but i wanted to get the very latest from her, since sometimes these girls might visit a friend or a relative. and i knew that lynda was going to the university of texas, and that luci was going to national cathedral. so i confirmed the locations with mrs. johnson and then told agent kivett, who was in our presence at the time i was talking to her, to make the necessary calls to have secret service protection placed around lynda and luci. and agent kivett made these calls and then came back and reported to me that lockwood, from austin, who is in the san antonio office, but he was in austin at the time, had proceeded to the university of texas to get lynda, and that an agent from the washington field office would go out and get luci at the school. mr. specter. mr. chief justice, i move for the admission into evidence of commission exhibits no. , which is a reproduction of the overhead shot, and , which is a reproduction of the vice presidential detail schedules. the chairman. they may be admitted. (the documents heretofore marked for identification as commission exhibits nos. and , were received in evidence.) mr. specter. that concludes my questions, sir. the chairman. mr. craig, any questions? mr. craig. no, sir. mr. murray. i have no questions, mr. chief justice. the chairman. well, agent youngblood, thank you very much for coming and testifying. we appreciate it. we will adjourn now. we will adjourn until in the morning. (whereupon, at : p.m., the president's commission recessed.) _tuesday, march , _ testimony of robert hill jackson, arnold louis rowland, james richard worrell, jr., and amos lee euins the president's commission met at : a.m. on march , at maryland avenue ne., washington, d.c. present were chief justice earl warren, chairman; senator john sherman cooper and representative gerald r. ford, members. also present were joseph a. ball, assistant counsel; david w. belin, assistant counsel; norman redlich, assistant counsel; arlen specter, assistant counsel; and edward l. wright, chairman, house of delegates, american bar association. testimony of robert hill jackson the chairman. all right, gentlemen, are we ready? would you raise your right hand and be sworn, mr. jackson? do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. jackson. i do. the chairman. will you be seated, please. mr. specter will conduct the examination. mr. specter. will you state---- the chairman. first, i will read a very small short statement for the record. the purpose of this day's hearing is to hear the testimony of arnold louis rowland, amos lee euins, james richard worrell, and robert h. jackson, who were in the vicinity of the assassination scene on november , . the commission proposes to ask these witnesses for facts concerning their knowledge of the assassination of president kennedy. you have seen a copy of this, have you, mr. jackson? mr. jackson. yes, sir. the chairman. very well, you may proceed, mr. specter. mr. specter. would you state your full name for the record, please? mr. jackson. robert hill jackson. mr. specter. and what is your address, mr. jackson? mr. jackson. sperry. mr. specter. what city is that located in? mr. jackson. dallas, tex. mr. specter. how long have you lived at that address, please? mr. jackson. since september of . mr. specter. and of what state are you a native? mr. jackson. i am a native of dallas, tex. mr. specter. have you lived in dallas all your life? mr. jackson. yes, sir. mr. specter. what is your occupation at the present time? mr. jackson. staff photographer for the dallas times herald. mr. specter. how long have you been so employed? mr. jackson. since august of . mr. specter. will you outline for us briefly---- the chairman. or ? mr. jackson. . mr. specter. will you outline for us briefly your educational background, please? mr. jackson. i attended highland park high school and then southern methodist university, where i studied for a business degree, and i did not finish. i lack about hours of finishing, of getting a degree. mr. specter. what year did you leave the university? mr. jackson. . mr. specter. how were you occupied between the time you left the university and the time you started to work for the newspaper? mr. jackson. i did some freelance photography work for a while, over a year, until i went into the service on the month's plan through my national guard unit, and i was a photographer there in the army, on-the-job training, and then after i was released from the army i did freelance work, i guess for about a year, until i got the job at the herald. mr. specter. how old are you at the present time? mr. jackson. twenty-nine. mr. specter. what is your marital status? mr. jackson. i am married. mr. specter. do you have children? mr. jackson. one child. one girl months today. mr. specter. going back to november , , by whom were you employed at that time? mr. jackson. dallas times herald. mr. specter. what was your assignment on that specific day? mr. jackson. i was assigned to the motorcade to meet the president, love field, and go to the trade mart and that was the extent of it, cover the parade, i mean the motorcade and the speech. mr. specter. were you assigned to take pictures? mr. jackson. to take pictures, yes, sir. mr. specter. did you meet the president at love field? mr. jackson. yes, sir. mr. specter. and did you take photographs for your newspaper at love field? mr. jackson. yes, sir. mr. specter. describe briefly your activities at love field on the morning of november , please. mr. jackson. well, we got there, i guess, , minutes early. mr. specter. at about what time would that have been? mr. jackson. i have to think to remember exactly what time, around , i guess, to : , i believe. and i took pictures there. there were other photographers from our paper there, our chief photographer. and we just took shots of the crowd, and waited for the president to arrive. and then when he did arrive, our chief photographer left and went directly to the trade mart and i got into the motorcade to ride to town. mr. specter. do you know exactly which car you were in in the motorcade? mr. jackson. we counted up, and it is either the seventh or eighth car. we said eighth car from the president, from the lead car. mr. specter. when you say we counted up, whom do you mean? mr. jackson. the photographers in the car. as we left love field, we were trying to figure how far back we were and we all decided it was the eighth car. mr. specter. can you reconstruct that count for us which provided the basis for your conclusion that you were in the seventh or eighth car. for example, how many cars ahead of you was the president's car or the vice president's car, if you can recollect, please. mr. jackson. let me think a minute. i know there was a photographer's car directly in front of us which i believe had some of the local press. it was a convertible. then in front were, i believe, two or three cars carrying the press, the white house press, and then president johnson, i guess would be in the next car, and then the president in the lead car, or the next car, and i believe there was another car in the lead. mr. specter. so as you recollect the scene there was the lead and immediately behind the lead car, whose car? mr. jackson. the president's, i believe. mr. specter. and then immediately behind the president's whose car? mr. jackson. the vice president's. mr. specter. and immediately to the rear of the vice president's car? mr. jackson. press vehicles and i was told it was the white house press, two or three cars. mr. specter. and then there was one car filled with photographers? mr. jackson. directly in front of us. mr. specter. between your car and the cars which you believe to have been filled with white house newsmen? mr. jackson. yes, sir. the chairman. wasn't there a secret service car directly behind the president's car? mr. jackson. yes, sir. the chairman. between it and the vice president's car? mr. jackson. yes, sir; that is right. mr. specter. wasn't there a secret service car immediately behind the vice president's car, if you know? mr. jackson. there must have been. that is what i can't recall is which was which in there. i knew the white house press was in there but i didn't know how many cars. i am sure there were secret service cars, yes, sir. mr. specter. as you were proceeding along in the motorcade, were you within sight of the president's automobile? mr. jackson. at times. when he was--when we could not get a clear view of it because of the photographers in the car ahead of us who were sitting up on the back of the seat just like we were, we did not have a clear view of the car at all times. mr. specter. as you proceeded along approximately how far behind the president's car were you, expressed either in cars, block lengths or in any way that is convenient for you? mr. jackson. well, i would say approximately a block, average city block, maybe closer at times. mr. specter. mr. jackson, i show you a photograph which has been marked heretofore as commission exhibit no. , and ask you to look at it for a moment, and see if you can identify what that photograph depicts. mr. jackson. yes, sir; this is the scene of the assassination, parade route, main and houston, left on elm. mr. specter. now, which street did the presidential motorcade take coming on to that scene which you have described as the assassination scene. mr. jackson. they were on houston. mr. specter. and before houston what street were they on? mr. jackson. main street. mr. specter. what direction were they proceeding on main street? mr. jackson. west. mr. specter. now without reference to the photograph, will you tell us what happened as the motorcade proceeded west on main street? mr. jackson. well, on main, as we neared houston street everyone was more or less in a relaxed state in our car, because we were near the end of the route, i guess, nothing unusual happened on main street. the final block on main, before we turned on houston i was in the process of unloading a camera and i was to toss it out of the car as we turned right on houston street to one of our reporters. mr. specter. had that been set up by prearrangement? mr. jackson. yes, sir. and that i did as we turned the corner, and when--it was in an interval and as i threw it out the wind blew it, caught it and blew it out into the street and our reporter chased it out into the street and the photographers in our car, one of the photographers, was a tv cameraman whom i do not recall his name, and he was joking about the film being thrown out and he was shooting my picture of throwing the film out. mr. specter. at this point could you tell us, to the best of your recollection, precisely who was with you in the car at that time? mr. jackson. jim underwood from krld-tv station, tom dillard, chief photographer for the dallas morning news, and me, and then two newsreel cameramen who i know by sight but i don't know their names. one is with wfaa which is the dallas morning news station, and i believe the other was channel , i believe. mr. specter. can you position those people in the automobile for us with respect to where each was sitting? (at this point representative ford entered the hearing room.) mr. jackson. tom dillard and jim underwood were in the front seat with the driver. mr. specter. can you identify who the driver was? mr. jackson. no, sir. mr. specter. but he was a sixth individual separate and apart from the five heretofore described? mr. jackson. yes, sir. and in the back seat were the two i know by sight but i can't remember the names. and i was on the right side of the car. mr. specter. on the right side of which seat? mr. jackson. back seat, sitting up on the back of a seat. mr. specter. what kind of a car was it, sir? mr. jackson. i believe it was a chevrolet convertible. mr. specter. top down? mr. jackson. yes, sir. mr. specter. were you carrying one camera or more than one camera? mr. jackson. two cameras. mr. specter. and was one camera loaded at the time you rounded the corner of main and houston? mr. jackson. yes, sir; and one was empty. mr. specter. was it from the camera which was empty that you had taken the roll of film which you have just described? mr. jackson. yes, sir. mr. specter. all right. will you now proceed to tell us what happened as you rounded the corner of main and houston, please? mr. jackson. well, as our reporter chased the film out into the street, we all looked back at him and were laughing, and it was approximately that time that we heard the first shot, and we had already rounded the corner, of course, when we heard the first shot. we were approximately almost half a block on houston street. mr. specter. will you identify for me on commission exhibit , precisely as possible, where your automobile was at the time you heard the first shot? mr. jackson. approximately right here, i would say the midpoint of this building. approximately where we heard the first report. mr. specter. now, will you mark in a black "x" on the spot where your car was at the time you heard the first shot? mr. jackson. right here approximately. and as we heard the first shot, i believe it was tom dillard from dallas news who made some remark as to that sounding like a firecracker, and it could have been somebody else who said that. but someone else did speak up and make that comment and before he actually finished the sentence we heard the other two shots. then we realized or we thought that it was gunfire, and then we could not at that point see the president's car. we were still moving slowly, and after the third shot the second two shots seemed much closer together than the first shot, than they were to the first shot. then after the last shot, i guess all of us were just looking all around and i just looked straight up ahead of me which would have been looking at the school book depository and i noticed two negro men in a window straining to see directly above them, and my eyes followed right on up to the window above them and i saw the rifle or what looked like a rifle approximately half of the weapon, i guess i saw, and just as i looked at it, it was drawn fairly slowly back into the building, and i saw no one in the window with it. i didn't even see a form in the window. mr. specter. what did you do next? mr. jackson. i said "there is the gun," or it came from that window. i tried to point it out. but by the time the other people looked up, of course, it was gone, and about that time we were beginning to turn the corner. mr. specter. which corner were you beginning to turn? mr. jackson. houston onto elm. mr. specter. i now show you a photograph marked as commission exhibit no. and ask you if you can identify what that depicts? mr. jackson. this is the school book depository. this is the window the two colored men were looking out of. this is the window where the rifle was. mr. specter. will you mark the window where the rifle was with an "a" and would you please mark the window where you have identified the men below with a "b." (witness marking.) mr. specter. referring to your mark of "a," the photograph will show that you have marked the window on the sixth floor with the mark being placed on the window on the westerly half of the first double window. mr. jackson. i am sorry. this window here on the very end was the window where the weapon was. i am sorry, i just marked the double--actually this is the rifle window right here. mr. specter. will you take the black pencil again and draw an arrow--before you start to mark, hear the rest of the question--as precisely as you can to the exact spot where you saw what you have described as the rifle. (witness marking.) mr. specter. was the window you have just marked as being the spot from which the rifle protruded, open when you looked up? mr. jackson. yes, sir. mr. specter. what is your best recollection as to how far open it was at that time? mr. jackson. i would say that it was open like that window there, halfway. mr. specter. indicating a window on the sixth floor of the westernmost portion of the building open halfway as you have described it. my last comment, as to the description of your last window, is only for the purpose of what you have said in identifying a window to show how far open the window was. mr. jackson. yes. mr. specter. which you heretofore marked with an arrow, correct? mr. jackson. yes, sir. also in that window i could see boxes, corrugated boxes on the left portion which would be my left, of the window, of the open window. mr. specter. how many boxes could you see? mr. jackson. i couldn't tell. it just seemed like a stack of boxes. mr. specter. how high were the boxes stacked? mr. jackson. maybe two is all i saw. they were stacked, i believe they were as high as the window was open, halfway up the window. mr. specter. what is your best recollection of the size of those boxes which you say you saw? mr. jackson. maybe like that, that wide. mr. specter. indicating approximately feet wide? mr. jackson. three feet or a little less maybe. mr. specter. what was the height of those boxes? mr. jackson. i would say high enough to hide a man. let's say, between and feet high, i would say to the best of my recollection. from the angle i was looking at it, i would say they were feet high at least. mr. specter. that is each box would be feet high? mr. jackson. no; the stack, the stacked boxes. mr. specter. could you see how many boxes were stacked up to reach a total height of to feet? mr. jackson. no, sir. mr. specter. now, were you able to see anyone in front of those boxes? mr. jackson. no, sir. mr. specter. whether or not you could identify anyone, could you see even the form or outline of the man? mr. jackson. no, sir. it looked to me like the man was over to the side of the window because the rifle was at quite an angle to me. mr. specter. which side of the window? mr. jackson. well, from the position of the rifle it would be the corner of the building, the east. it would be to the right of the window from my view. mr. specter. which direction was the rifle pointing? mr. jackson. west. to my left. mr. specter. was it pointing in a straight westerly direction or was it pointing at an angle from the building. mr. jackson. it was at an angle from the building. i am not--well, let's see--well, it wouldn't be directly west. mr. specter. what was the general line of direction of the pointing of the rifle? mr. jackson. well, directly down the street. mr. specter. and by down the street you are pointing out what street? mr. jackson. down elm street toward the triple, toward the underpass. mr. specter. was it pointed as you have indicated at the angle which elm street traverses heading toward the triple underpass? mr. jackson. yes, sir. and the rifle was pointing slightly down. mr. specter. did you at any time in this sequence observe the president's automobile? mr. jackson. as we turned the corner--or we stopped where the intersection, actually we stopped before we began to turn left onto elm street, or rather i would say we hesitated and we were all looking down towards the president's car and i could see two cars going under the underpass. i barely saw the president's car. i would say just the rear end of it as it disappeared under the underpass. mr. specter. was that the only time you saw the president's car from the time you made a right-hand turn off of main street onto houston street? mr. jackson. yes, sir. mr. specter. what is your best estimate as to the time span between the first shot you heard and the last shot you heard? mr. jackson. i would say to seconds. mr. specter. can you give us a breakdown between the shots which you heard as to how many seconds elapsed between each one? mr. jackson. i would say to me it seemed like or seconds between the first and the second, and between the second and third, well, i guess seconds, they were very close together. it could have been more time between the first and second. i really can't be sure. mr. specter. are you sure you heard three shots? mr. jackson. yes, sir. mr. specter. now, will you mark on the overhead shot, which is exhibit , with a "y" as precisely as you can the position of your automobile at the time you heard the second shot? mr. jackson. with a "y"? mr. specter. yes, please. (witness marking.) mr. specter. would you now mark on the same exhibit the precise position of your car as closely as you can recollect it when you heard the third shot with a letter "z"? (witness marking.) mr. specter. when, in relation to the timing of the shots, which you have described, did you first look toward the texas school book depository building? mr. jackson. it couldn't have been more than seconds before i looked at that window. mr. specter. three seconds from what point in time? mr. jackson. from the last shot. mr. specter. did you say from the last shot? mr. jackson. from the last shot, yes, sir. mr. specter. what is your best recollection or estimate of the speed of your automobile as you were proceeding in a generally northerly direction on houston street at the time of the shooting? mr. jackson. i would say not over miles an hour. mr. specter. what would your best estimate be as to the minimum speed? mr. jackson. ten, i would say. mr. specter. where, in the window were the two negro men, whom you have described? mr. jackson. well, there was one in each of those double windows. mr. specter. on which floor was that? mr. jackson. the fifth floor. mr. specter. and will you place an arrow where you saw each of those men, please? mr. jackson. each one of them? mr. specter. yes. (witness marking.) mr. specter. did you observe any reaction from either or both of those two men when you saw them? mr. jackson. no, sir. just looking up. mr. specter. could you see their faces reasonably clearly to observe that they were looking up. mr. jackson. i could tell they were looking up because they were leaning way out just like that. i couldn't see their faces very well at all. mr. specter. the witness has leaned forward and turned his head to the right and looking upward as he sits in the witness chair, may the record show. representative ford. did they both turn the same way as you have indicated in answer to mr. specter's question? mr. jackson. to the best of my recollection one man looked up to his right and the other man looked up like this to his left, one in each window. representative ford. can you identify which to his right and which to his left? mr. jackson. i believe the one on the right window, my right, was looking to his right. the one on the west window, the one to my left was looking to his left. i believe i am right on that but i may not be because i just looked at them for a fraction of a second, i just followed them up. mr. specter. what is your best estimate of the distance which separated you from those two men at the time you observed them? mr. jackson. i am not very good at distances. i was about the middle of the block, i guess. i would say around a hundred yards, i guess. mr. specter. did you see those two men before or after you observed the rifle? mr. jackson. before. mr. specter. what is your best estimate of how many inches of the rifle that you observed? mr. jackson. i saw the barrel and about half--well, i did not see a telescopic sight, but i did see part of the stock, so i guess maybe or inches of the stock maybe. i did see part of the stock, i did not see the sight. mr. specter. eight or ten inches of the stock, and how much of the barrel would you estimate? mr. jackson. i guess possibly a foot. mr. specter. did you see anyone's hands on the rifle? mr. jackson. no, sir. mr. specter. now, as best as you can recollect it, what exact words did you state at or about the time you made the observation of the rifle, if any? mr. jackson. i said, "there is the gun" and somebody said "where?" and i said, "it came from that window" and i pointed to that window. mr. specter. do you recollect who it was who said "where?" mr. jackson. somebody in the car, i don't recall who. mr. specter. did anybody else in the car say anything else at that time? mr. jackson. nothing that i could remember. i am sure they were all talking. mr. specter. did you say anything else at about that time? mr. jackson. if i did, i don't remember. mr. specter. did anyone in the automobile state that he, too, had seen the rifle from the window? mr. jackson. no, sir. mr. specter. did you have a conversation with all of the men in the car immediately after the incident? mr. jackson. no, sir; because as, i guess after the third shot, i do recall the driver speeding up, and we hesitated at the corner before turning left, and three of the occupants of the car got out, jumped out. mr. specter. who were those three? mr. jackson. that was underwood, jim underwood, tom dillard and one of the tv cameramen. the whaa channel cameraman and i were left in the back seat. we couldn't make up our minds. mr. specter. was there an individual in the car by the name of mr. couch, to your knowledge? mr. jackson. couch? mr. specter. yes, sir. mr. jackson. i don't know him. mr. specter. malcolm couch? mr. jackson. the name is familiar. i might state what i did see as we did hesitate there, at the corner, i don't recall whether this was before the other three fellows got out of the car or not, i believe we were still all in the car, as we observed these other things, but in a fleeting glance as i saw the cars go under the underpass, i did see people running. i saw a motorcycle policeman jump off his motorcycle, in fact, he just hit the curb and just let it fall, and he went down on his knees on the grass, on the lawn of that parkway. i did see a family covering up their child, and i just saw a state of confusion, people running, and that is about all i saw at that point of the scene. mr. specter. mr. jackson, at the time you heard the first shot, did you have any reaction or impression from the sound itself as to the source of the shot, point of origin? mr. jackson. no, sir; i didn't. it did sound like it came from ahead of us or from that general vicinity but i could not tell whether it was high up or on the ground. mr. specter. when you say that general vicinity, what vicinity did you mean? mr. jackson. we were sure it came from ahead of us which would be in a northerly direction, northwesterly direction. it did sound as though it came from somewhere around the head of the motorcade. mr. specter. from the second shot, did you have any reaction or impression as to the source of this shot? mr. jackson. no, sir. through all three shots, i could just tell that it was ahead of me and not behind me, that is it. mr. specter. and the same impression then prevailed through the third shot as well. mr. jackson. yes, sir. to me it never sounded like it was high or low. mr. specter. have you had occasion since this incident to relate the factual sequences, your observations and what you heard? have you had occasion to tell anybody about what you saw and heard as you have described it to us? mr. jackson. yes, sir. mr. specter. has there been any variation in your recollection or impressions about your observations on these occasions? mr. jackson. not to my knowledge. the other times were not as thorough as this. mr. specter. mr. chief justice, those are all of the questions which i have, sir. the chairman. congressman ford, any questions you would like to ask mr. jackson? representative ford. mr. jackson, when and by whom were you questioned or interrogated subsequent to the event? i was thinking of the fbi, the secret service, or any investigative organization. mr. jackson. you say when, how soon afterwards? representative ford. right. mr. jackson. i would say within days afterwards, let's see, the next day was the first day. representative ford. saturday november ? mr. jackson. yes, sir; i believe it was the first time. representative ford. who, by name, if you can, but if not by what organization? mr. jackson. the fbi called me, i believe it was friday evening, and i believe i did give some information on the phone friday night. representative ford. was that followed up---- mr. jackson. and they came and saw me in the office, i believe on saturday. representative ford. how did they happen to contact you? had you made a statement publicly before? mr. jackson. our newspaper ran an article by me or i got a byline on it stating this in general which i have stated today. representative ford. following this initial contact have you made subsequent statements to various organizations or any organization? mr. jackson. i made statements to the secret service also. other than that there was none other. representative ford. how good are your eyes, do you wear glasses? mr. jackson. no, sir. representative ford. have you had an eye examination recently or when was the last examination? mr. jackson. i had a physical when i reenlisted in the national guard, let's see, that was, i believe, about a year and a half ago, i had that physical and i had - vision. representative ford. - vision? mr. jackson. yes, sir. representative ford. you just indicated you were in the texas national guard? mr. jackson. yes, sir. representative ford. how long have you been in the texas national guard? mr. jackson. i joined in october . representative ford. and you have been in continuously since? mr. jackson. yes, sir. representative ford. so you are familiar with guns in general? mr. jackson. yes, sir. representative ford. so you would readily identify, if you saw it, a rifle? mr. jackson. yes, sir. representative ford. did any others in the automobile in which you were riding recollect as far as you know, hearing you say "there is the gun." mr. jackson. i don't know whether they would remember it or not. representative ford. have you ever talked with any others in the car? mr. jackson. i have never sat down and talked with them about the events, no, sir. i have seen them, of course, several times but i have never discussed it with them. representative ford. you never discussed what you said or what they said? mr. jackson. no, sir. i guess the one man i have discussed it more with than anybody else was tom dillard, the chief photographer for the dallas news, and we recalled to each other the scene but we really never went into any detail or as to what each one of us said either. representative ford. at the time you were in the car, after it had turned from main onto houston, was there any noise from the crowd on either side of the street, houston street? mr. jackson. there was very little crowd on houston, as i recall. on houston itself. the crowd--i mean as compared to main street, to the other end of town and down through main. the crowd thinned out as we got down near the intersection of main and houston, and there were a lot less people but i couldn't make an estimate of how many. representative ford. there was no noise from the crowd at that point? mr. jackson. no, sir; no noise, i would say. representative ford. at the time you heard the first shot, what was your position in the car? were you standing or sitting? mr. jackson. i was sitting on the back of the seat, on the right-hand side of the back seat, sitting up. representative ford. did you have your camera in your hand? mr. jackson. yes; i had one camera around my neck and the camera i had just emptied, it was in my lap. i had thrown my film out to this reporter over the side of the car as we rounded the corner and i still had the camera lying in my lap, and the other one was around my neck. representative ford. was this the position you were in at the time you heard the first shot? mr. jackson. yes, sir. representative ford. after the third shot and as the car hesitated, did you see any law enforcement officials move in any concentrated or concerted direction? mr. jackson. i saw at least one, there may have been more, run up the school depository steps, toward the door. that is one of the things i saw in this confusion. representative ford. this was separate from the policeman on the motorcycle? mr. jackson. yes, sir. yes. i should have said that a while ago. there was a policeman who moved toward the door of the depository. but to my best knowledge there was no concentrated movement toward any one spot. it looked like general confusion to me, and of course, i stayed in the car. as we did turn the corner our driver speeded up and we went by the scene pretty fast and i do recall this negro family covering up their child on the grass, and i, as we passed them, they were just getting up and he had the child in his arms and the child looked limp and i didn't know whether the child was shot or not. but then we were moving fast and went on under the underpass. representative ford. that is all, mr. chairman. the chairman. mr. wright, do you have any questions? mr. wright. no, mr. chief justice, i passed a question on. mr. specter. i have just one additional question, and that is whether mr. jackson had any occasion to see anybody leave the scene of the texas school book depository building? mr. jackson. no, sir. mr. specter. that is all, your honor. the chairman. mr. jackson, thank you very much for coming. mr. jackson. thank you. the chairman. we appreciate it. who is next? mr. specter. mr. rowland. the chairman. would you raise your right hand and be sworn, please. do you solemnly swear the testimony given before this commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. rowland. yes, sir. the chairman. mr. specter will conduct the examination. mr. specter. will you state your full name for the record, please, but before you do, mr. chief justice, is it your practice to read that statement to the witness? the chairman. yes. i will read a short statement to you for the purpose of the hearing. the purpose of today's hearing is to hear the testimony of arnold louis rowland, amos lee euins, james richard worrell, and robert h. jackson, who were in the vicinity of the assassination scene on november , . the commission proposes to ask these witnesses for facts concerning their knowledge of the assassination of president kennedy. a copy of that statement was furnished to you, was it not? mr. rowland. no. the chairman. you didn't see it. you have one before you. very well. testimony of arnold louis rowland mr. specter. will you please state your full name for the record, mr. rowland? mr. rowland. arnold louis rowland. mr. specter. what is your address? mr. rowland. aphinney. mr. specter. and in what city do you reside? mr. rowland. this is dallas, tex. mr. specter. how long have you resided in dallas, tex. mr. rowland. about months at present. mr. specter. where did you live before coming to dallas? mr. rowland. in salem, oreg. mr. specter. how long did you live in salem, oreg. mr. rowland. about months. mr. specter. where did you live before moving to salem, oreg. mr. rowland. dallas. mr. specter. how long did you live in dallas at that time? mr. rowland. about years. mr. specter. where were you born? mr. rowland. corpus christi, tex. mr. specter. have you lived in texas most of your life? mr. rowland. most of my life. mr. specter. what is your age at the present time, mr. rowland? mr. rowland. eighteen. mr. specter. and what is your exact date of birth, please? mr. rowland. april , . mr. specter. what is your marital status. mr. rowland. married. mr. specter. have you any children? mr. rowland. no. mr. specter. how long have you been married? mr. rowland. ten months. mr. specter. what education have you had, sir? mr. rowland. high school. mr. specter. are you attending high school at the present time? mr. rowland. i have finished, and fixing to go to college. mr. specter. when did you graduate from high school? mr. rowland. june . mr. specter. how have you been occupied or employed since june of ? mr. rowland. worked in oregon at three different jobs. exchange lumber co. as a shipping clerk, meier frank co. as a clothes salesman, and part time at west foods. the business was mushroom processing. that was during the summer. upon my return to dallas, i worked part time, while doing some postgraduate work, at the pizza inn. at present i am working with the p. f. collier co. mr. specter. what sort of work are you doing with p. f. collier? mr. rowland. that is promotional advertising. mr. specter. what college are you attending, if any, at the present time? mr. rowland. none at the present. mr. specter. what postgraduate work had you been doing that you just mentioned? mr. rowland. studies in math and science. mr. specter. where were you studying these courses? mr. rowland. this was a high school in dallas as advanced courses. mr. specter. have you been accepted in any college? mr. rowland. yes; several. texas a. & m., rice, smu, arlington. mr. specter. do you have plans to attend one of those colleges? mr. rowland. yes. mr. specter. which one do you plan to enter? mr. rowland. preferably rice. mr. specter. do you have an entry date set? mr. rowland. no; i am trying for a scholarship for it. mr. specter. have you been in the military service? mr. rowland. no; i haven't. mr. specter. what is the general condition of your health. mr. rowland. good. mr. specter. what is the condition of your eyesight? mr. rowland. very good. mr. specter. do you wear glasses at any time? mr. rowland. no. mr. specter. when, most recently, have you had an eye test, if at all? mr. rowland. about months ago. mr. specter. and you know the results of that test? mr. rowland. very good vision. mr. specter. do you know what classification the doctor placed on it? mr. rowland. no; i don't remember it. mr. specter. do you recollect if it was - ? mr. rowland. he said it was much better than that. mr. specter. and what doctor examined your eyes? mr. rowland. this was the firm of doctors finn and finn. mr. specter. f-i-n-n and f-i-n-n? mr. rowland. yes. mr. specter. where are they located? mr. rowland. the fidelity union life building in dallas. mr. specter. approximately how long ago was that examination? mr. rowland. about months. mr. specter. going to the day of november , , how were you occupied at that time, mr. rowland? mr. rowland. i was attending classes in school part of the day, working part time as a pizzamaker in pizza inn. mr. specter. had you regularly scheduled classes on the morning of november , ? mr. rowland. yes. i had classes up until . i just had two classes on friday. mr. specter. and what school were you attending at that time? mr. rowland. w. h. adamson high. mr. specter. how far is that from the intersection of houston and elm streets in dallas, approximately? mr. rowland. it must have been about a mile and a half. mr. specter. will you describe for the commission what you did on that morning, in a general way, up until approximately noon time? mr. rowland. i went to my classes. my wife got out of school early. we went to town. i had to go to work at , so we were going downtown to do some shopping. we went early so we could see the president's motorcade. mr. specter. what time did you arrive in town? mr. rowland. we rode a bus from the school. we got to town approximately a quarter to . mr. specter. what school was your wife attending at that time? mr. rowland. the same: adamson. mr. specter. what time did her classes end? mr. rowland. she got out at also. mr. specter. and what did you do from the time you arrived in town at approximately a quarter of for the next minutes? mr. rowland. trying to find a good vantage point. we walked about five or six blocks. mr. specter. from where did you walk? mr. rowland. we got off at the junction, at the intersection of main and houston, walked up toward ervay, about four blocks, i would say up to akard. we walked from houston to akard on main, and then we walked back down commerce and then over to the sheriffs or the county courthouse, there was a lesser crowd there. mr. specter. is that the reason you selected the spot you ultimately picked to watch the parade? mr. rowland. yes, there was no one in front of us, no one around that area. mr. specter. i am going to show you a photograph, mr. rowland, which has already been identified as commission exhibit no. and first ask you if you can identify what scene this represents. mr. rowland. yes; i can. mr. specter. what scene is that? mr. rowland. this is the triple underpass, this is the scene where the president was assassinated. mr. specter. what is this plaza called in dallas? mr. rowland. i don't know exactly. it is just known as the triple underpass. mr. specter. is it known as dealey plaza to your knowledge? mr. rowland. i have never heard it called that. mr. specter. can you point with your finger for me at the spot where you were standing as best you can recollect it? mr. rowland. we were about in this area on this sidewalk of this building. i say approximately two-thirds of the distance between here and here in this direction. mr. specter. all right. i have a substitute photograph for you to mark. i am now showing you an identical scene on a photograph which has been heretofore marked as commission exhibit no. . will you mark with an arrow as closely as possible to the point where you were standing? mr. rowland. there is an elevator shaft below this second window on that building that comes through a sidewalk. i was about feet to the left of it, about the third window or right here in this area. mr. specter. will you mark that a little more heavily, please? mr. rowland. yes. (witness marking.) mr. specter. what time were you so positioned? mr. rowland. we got there about after . mr. specter. did your position move at any time during the course of the next half hour? mr. rowland. yes. we did move to this corner, there were too many people on this corner. mr. specter. you are indicating back to the corner of houston and main? mr. rowland. yes. houston and main there were too many crowds so we came back to this street here, commerce is that right; no, elm and main. we came back to elm and main and figured it wouldn't be a very good vantage point because of the crowd there so we went back to where we were. mr. specter. where were you standing at the time the president's motorcade passed by you? mr. rowland. at that position. (witness marking.) mr. specter. the position you have marked with a "v," inverted "v." will you mark with the letter "a" the point to which you had moved when you described it as being at commerce which you corrected to elm and houston. mr. rowland. it was this corner. (witness marking.) mr. specter. approximately what time did you move to the position you have marked "a"? mr. rowland. about after . mr. specter. how long did you stay at position "a"? mr. rowland. momentarily, just long enough to look, maybe a minute. mr. specter. to look at what? mr. rowland. to look at the position itself. there was too much of a crowd in that area. when the president would come by they would be pushing or rushing in that area and it would be too crowded for us. mr. specter. at that point you did what? mr. rowland. then we went back to where we were. mr. specter. to position "v"? mr. rowland. yes, and we stayed there for a minute or so, walked to the corner of main and houston. mr. specter. mark main and houston with the letter "b," if you would, where you moved next. (witness marking.) mr. rowland. stayed there momentarily, less than a minute. there was quite a crowd there and we went back to where we were, our original position. mr. specter. to position "v"? mr. rowland. yes. mr. specter. what time would you say you got back to your position "v"? mr. rowland. we got back there after, i noticed the time on my watch, and the hertz time clock i noticed was about a minute later. mr. specter. where was the hertz time clock located? mr. rowland. that was on top of the school depository building. mr. specter. was your watch synchronized with the hertz up on top. mr. rowland. yes; i always set it by the same clock whenever i pass it. i pass it coming into town and i set my watch at that time. mr. specter. now, did you observe at any time the building which is depicted in commission exhibit no. ? mr. rowland. yes. we were looking around it, my wife and i, amongst the crowd, the different areas, making note of the policemen on top of the underpass itself, in that area, and the security precautions that were being taken. mr. specter. mr. chairman, i would like to show the witness the same photograph, but a different picture on an exhibit marked commission exhibit no. . mr. rowland, i show you a picture marked commission exhibit no. and ask you if you can identify what that represents? mr. rowland. that is houston, elm running in front of this building. this is the school book depository building. mr. specter. were you familiar with that building prior to november , ? mr. rowland. yes; i have been in there on occasion. mr. specter. you have been in the building? mr. rowland. yes, to purchase books. mr. specter. when were you in the building most recently prior to november , ? mr. rowland. within the first week of november. this was to buy a physics notebook. mr. specter. what part of the building were you in at that time? mr. rowland. just inside the door of the main lobby. mr. specter. on the first floor? mr. rowland. yes. mr. specter. had you ever had occasion at any time to be on any floor other than the first floor? mr. rowland. no. mr. specter. while you were standing on houston street in the various positions which you have described, did you have occasion at any time to observe the texas school book depository building? mr. rowland. yes. when we returned to position "v" we stayed there, we began looking around. my wife and i were discussing the security precautions that were taken in view of the event when mr. stevenson was there. mr. specter. before you go on, let me ask you at which time was this on your return to position "v"? mr. rowland. this was : . mr. specter. all right; proceed to tell us what you saw and heard at about that time? mr. rowland. we were discussing, as i stated, the different security precautions, i mean it was a very important person who was coming and we were aware of the policemen around everywhere, and especially in positions where they would be able to watch crowds. we talked momentarily of the incidents with mr. stevenson, and the one before that with mr. johnson, and this being in mind we were more or less security conscious. we looked and at that time i noticed on the sixth floor of the building that there was a man back from the window, not hanging out the window. he was standing and holding a rifle. this appeared to me to be a fairly high-powered rifle because of the scope and the relative proportion of the scope to the rifle, you can tell about what type of rifle it is. you can tell it isn't a . , you know, and we thought momentarily that maybe we should tell someone but then the thought came to us that it is a security agent. we had seen in the movies before where they have security men up in windows and places like that with rifles to watch the crowds, and we brushed it aside as that, at that time, and thought nothing else about it until after the event happened. mr. specter. now, by referring to the photograph on this commission exhibit no. , will you point to the window where you observed this man? mr. rowland. this was very odd. there were--this picture was not taken immediately after that, i don't think, because there were several windows, there are pairs of windows, and there were several pairs where both windows were open fully and in each pair there was one or more persons hanging out the window. yet this was on the west corner of the building, the sixth floor, the first floor--second floor down from the top, the first was the arched, the larger windows, not the arch, but the larger windows, and this was the only pair of windows where both windows were completely open and no one was hanging out the windows, or next to the window. it was this pair of windows here at that time. mr. specter. all right. will you mark that pair of windows with a circle? (witness marking.) mr. specter. what is your best recollection as to how far each of those windows were open? mr. rowland. to the fullest extent that they could be opened. mr. specter. what extent would that be? mr. rowland. being as i looked half frame windows, that would be halfway of the entire length of the window. mr. specter. is that the approximate status of those windows depicted here in exhibit ? mr. rowland. yes. mr. specter. in which of those double windows did you see the man and rifle? mr. rowland. it was through the window to my right. mr. specter. draw an arrow right into that window with the same black pencil please. (witness marking.) mr. specter. how much, if any, or all of that rifle could you see? mr. rowland. all of it. mr. specter. you could see from the base of the stock down to the tip of the end of the rifle? mr. rowland. yes. mr. specter. the barrel of the rifle? the chairman. congressman ford, will you excuse me for just a few minutes to run across the street to my office. you conduct during my absence. representative ford. will you proceed, mr. specter? mr. specter. what is your best estimate of the distance between where you were standing and the man holding the rifle whom you have just described? (the chief justice left the hearing room.) mr. rowland. feet approximately, very possibly more. i don't know for sure. mr. specter. are you very good at judging distances of that sort? mr. rowland. fairly good. mr. specter. have you had any experience or practice at judging such distances? mr. rowland. yes. even in using the method in physics or, you know, elementary physics of looking at a position in two different views, you can tell its distance. i did that quite frequently. and the best i can recollect it was within to feet. mr. specter. can you describe the rifle with any more particularity than you already have? mr. rowland. no. in proportion to the scope it appeared to me to be a . -odd size , a deer rifle with a fairly large or powerful scope. mr. specter. when you say, . -odd- , exactly what did you mean by that? mr. rowland. that is a rifle that is used quite frequently for deer hunting. it is an import. mr. specter. do you own any rifles? mr. rowland. no; my stepfather does. mr. specter. have you ever gone hunting deer with such a rifle? mr. rowland. yes; i have. mr. specter. and is that a . -odd- rifle that you have hunted deer with? mr. rowland. yes. mr. specter. is that a popular size of rifle in the dallas, tex., area? mr. rowland. i don't know about dallas. i do know in oregon it is one of the most popular for deer hunting. mr. specter. was the rifle which you observed similar to, or perhaps identical with, . -odd rifles which you have seen before? mr. rowland. the best i could tell it was of that size. mr. specter. have you seen such . -odd rifles before at close range which had telescopic sights? mr. rowland. yes; one my stepfather has has a very powerful scope on it. mr. specter. and did this rifle appear similar to the one your stepfather owned? mr. rowland. from my distance, i would say very similar or of similar manufacture. mr. specter. in what manner was the rifle being held by the man whom you observed? mr. rowland. the way he was standing it would have been in a position such as port arms in military terms. mr. specter. when you say port arms you have positioned your left hand with the left elbow of your hand being about level with your shoulder and your right hand---- mr. rowland. not quite level with my shoulder, and the right hand being lower on the trigger of the stock. mr. specter. so the waist of the imaginary rifle you would be holding would cross your body at about a -degree angle. mr. rowland. that is correct. mr. specter. how long was the rifle held in that position? mr. rowland. during the entire time that i saw him there. mr. specter. did you see him hold it in any other position? mr. rowland. no, i didn't. mr. specter. for example, was he standing at any time in a parade-rest position? mr. rowland. no; not to my knowledge. mr. specter. describe, as best you can, the appearance of the individual whom you saw? mr. rowland. he was rather slender in proportion to his size. i couldn't tell for sure whether he was tall and maybe, you know heavy, say pounds, but tall whether he would be and slender or whether he was medium and slender, but in proportion to his size his build was slender. mr. specter. could you give us an estimate on his height? mr. rowland. no; i couldn't. that is why i said i can't state what height he would be. he was just slender in build in proportion with his width. this is something i find myself doing all the time, comparing things in perspective. mr. specter. was he a white man or a negro or what? mr. rowland. seemed, well, i can't state definitely from my position because it was more or less not fully light or bright in the room. he appeared to be fair complexioned, not fair, but light complexioned, but dark hair. mr. specter. what race was he then? mr. rowland. i would say either a light latin or a caucasian. mr. specter. and were you able to observe any characteristics of his hair? mr. rowland. no; except that it was dark, probably black. mr. specter. were you able to observe whether he had a full head of hair or any characteristic as to quantity of hair? mr. rowland. it didn't appear as if he had a receding hairline but i know he didn't have it hanging on his shoulders. probably a close cut from--you know it appeared to me it was either well-combed or close cut. mr. specter. what, if anything, did you observe as to the clothes he was wearing? mr. rowland. he had on a light shirt, a very light-colored shirt, white or a light blue or a color such as that. this was open at the collar. i think it was unbuttoned about halfway, and then he had a regular t-shirt, a polo shirt under this, at least this is what it appeared to be. he had on dark slacks or blue jeans, i couldn't tell from that. i didn't see but a small portion. mr. specter. you say you only saw a small portion of what? mr. rowland. of his pants from his waist down. mr. specter. which half of the window was open, the bottom half or the top half? mr. rowland. it was the bottom half. mr. specter. and how much, if any, of his body was obscured by the window frame from that point down to the floor? mr. rowland. from where i was standing i could see from his head to about inches below his waist, below his belt. mr. specter. could you see as far as his knees? mr. rowland. no. mr. specter. and what is your best recollection as to how close to the window he was standing? mr. rowland. he wasn't next to the window, but he wasn't very far back. i would say to feet back from the window. mr. specter. how much of the rifle was separated from your line of vision by the window? mr. rowland. the entire rifle was in my view. mr. specter. in the open part of the window? mr. rowland. yes. mr. specter. and how much of his body, if any, was in the open view where there was no window between your eyes and the object of his body? mr. rowland. approximately two-thirds of his body just below his waist. mr. specter. up to what point? mr. rowland. mid point between the waist and the knees, this is again in my proportion to his height that i make that judgment. mr. specter. so from the waist, some point between his knees and his waist, you started to see him clear in the window? mr. rowland. yes. mr. specter. and from that point how far up his body were you able to see without any obstruction of a window between you and him? mr. rowland. to the top of his head. there was some space on top of that where i could see the wall behind him. mr. specter. what is your best estimate of the space between the top of his head and the open window at the perspective you were observing? mr. rowland. two and a half, three feet, something on that--that is something very hard to ascertain. that would just be an estimation on my part. mr. specter. is there anything else you observed about his appearance or his clothing or the rifle which you haven't already told us about? representative ford. was he facing toward you directly? mr. rowland. yes. representative ford. in other words, did you get a full view of his face and his chest and the front of him? mr. rowland. he appeared to me as though he were looking out the window and watching the crowd in particular. representative ford. excuse me, go ahead. mr. rowland. that is all right. representative ford. was he looking toward the corner of houston and main? mr. rowland. no; i would say he was looking in the area or the general vicinity of where i was. representative ford. and you were on the sidewalk on houston in front of the building that you have indicated? mr. rowland. yes. now, i can't--here again i wasn't close enough to see his eyes but from the position of his head he was looking in that general area. it could have been that maybe he was--his eyes were a little bit off perspective and he was watching that corner, i don't know. representative ford. in what position did you say his hands were on the rifle? mr. rowland. one hand was at what is called the gun stock of the rifle, just above the trigger, it was around the rifle. the other was at the other end of the rifle about inches below the end of the stock. representative ford. was the rifle held above his waist? mr. rowland. the majority of it was, just a small portion of butt below his waist. representative ford. the butt or the end of the rifle, the barrel end? mr. rowland. the butt, the stock end, was below his waist. the barrel being pointed in the air toward the ceiling or the wall next to him. representative ford. i see. the stock was down and the barrel was up. mr. rowland. yes. mr. specter. were you able to form any opinion as to the age of that man? mr. rowland. this is again just my estimation. he was--i think i remember telling my wife that he appeared in his early thirties. this could be obscured because of the distance, i mean. mr. specter. were you able to form any opinion as to the weight of the man in addition to the line of proportion which you have already described? mr. rowland. i would say about to pounds. representative ford. when did you tell your wife you thought he was in his thirties? mr. rowland. right after i noticed the man, i brought him to my wife's attention, and she was looking at something else at that time, we looked at that, and when we both looked back she wanted to see also, and he was gone from our vision. representative ford. so she never saw him? mr. rowland. my wife never saw him. representative ford. did you say at that time how old he was or how old you thought he was? mr. rowland. i think i remarked to my wife that he appeared in his thirties, early thirties. mr. specter. when, after you first observed him did you have a conversation about him with your wife? mr. rowland. right afterwards. there was--just before i observed him there was a police motorcycle parked just on the street, not in front of us, just a little past us, and the radio was on it giving the details of the motorcade, where it was positioned, and right after the time i noticed him and when my wife was pointing this other thing to me, i don't remember what that was, the dispatcher came on and gave the position of the motorcade as being on cedar springs. this would be in the area of turtle creek, down in that area. i can't remember the street's name but i know where it is at. and this was the position of the motorcade and it was about or after . mr. specter. well, did you tell your wife about the presence of this man immediately after you saw him? mr. rowland. yes. mr. specter. and what was the quality or condition of her eyes? mr. rowland. she has nearsightedness and has to wear glasses. mr. specter. was she wearing glasses at the time? mr. rowland. no, she wasn't. mr. specter. based on your knowledge of her eyesight, would it have been possible for her to have seen him considering your relative positions? mr. rowland. had he still been there she would have been able to acknowledge the figure with no description. mr. specter. how long did you see him there in total point of time? mr. rowland. it was all relatively brief, short time, seconds, maybe . i was looking at the building, looking at the people hanging out of the building, i noticed him, my eye contact was at that position for to seconds. this is all relatively very short length of time. mr. specter. now---- mr. rowland. but a lot can happen in that much time. mr. specter. when you saw him, you told her about him, and then did she look in the direction of the man? mr. rowland. after she pointed something else out to me she looked in that direction. mr. specter. did you then look back toward the direction of, to the window where you had seen him? mr. rowland. yes; i even pointed to it with my wife. mr. specter. did you look back at the same time she looked back? mr. rowland. yes. mr. specter. and when you looked back what, if anything, did you observe in the window? mr. rowland. there was nothing there then. mr. specter. following that did you and she have any additional conversation about this man in the window? mr. rowland. we talked about it momentarily, just for a few seconds that it was of most likelihood a security man, had a very good vantage point where he could watch the crowds, talked about the rifle, it looked like a very high-powered rifle. mr. specter. did you mention that to your wife? mr. rowland. yes; i did. mr. specter. have you described as fully as you can everything you discussed with your wife at that juncture? mr. rowland. i think so. representative ford. was there anybody else standing close to you as you had this conversation with your wife? mr. rowland. there was a policeman about as far as me to the flag. representative ford. that is about how many feet, would you say? mr. rowland. twelve, thirteen feet. representative ford. there was no one between you and the policeman in that line of vision? mr. rowland. no. then there were three or four colored men just behind the elevator, and a couple on the elevator that had come up through the sidewalk. this was a distance of--this was on the opposite side of us about feet, just a little further than the officer. representative ford. there was no one closer to you and your wife than to feet? mr. rowland. that is correct. that is one of the main reasons we selected that spot. representative ford. did it ever enter your mind that you should go and tell the policeman of this sight or this vision that you had seen? mr. rowland. really it didn't. representative ford. it never entered your mind? mr. rowland. i never dreamed of anything such as that. i mean, i must honestly say my opinion was based on movies i have seen, on the attempted assassination of theodore roosevelt where they had secret service men up in the building such as that with rifles watching the crowds, and another one concerned with attempted assassination of the other one, franklin roosevelt, and both of these had secret service men up in windows or on top of buildings with rifles, and this is how my opinion was based and why it didn't alarm me. perhaps if i had been older and had more experience in life it might have made a difference. it very well could have. mr. specter. mr. rowland, did the man with the rifle have any distinctive facial appearance such as a mustache or a prominent scar, anything of that sort which you could observe? mr. rowland. there was nothing dark on his face, no mustache. there could have been a scar if it hadn't been a dark scar. if it was, you know, a blotch or such as this, there was nothing very dark about the color of his face. mr. specter. mr. rowland, will you recount as precisely and as specifically as you can, the exact conversation between you and your wife from the time you first noticed this man until your conversation about the man concluded, indicating what you said and what she said in language as closely as you can recollect it? mr. rowland. that is a whopper. i am almost sure i told her or asked her, did she want to see a secret service agent. she said, "where," and i said, "in the building there," and at that time she told me to look--i remember what she was looking at. right directly across from us in this plaza in front of the pond there was a colored boy that had an epileptic fit or something of this type right then, and she pointed this out to me and there were a couple of officers there and a few moments later they called an ambulance, this is what she told me to look at then, and we looked at this for a short period of time, and then i told her to look in the building, the second floor from the top and on that end, the two open windows, is i think what i said, and i said, "he is not there now." i think that is what i said. she said, "what did he look like," and i told her just that--i gave her more or less a brief description of what he looked like, open collared shirt, light-colored shirt, and he had a rifle, i described the rifle in as much detail as i have to you to her. mr. specter. you described the rifle to her in as much detail as you have to us? mr. rowland. yes. and then she said something about wishing she could have seen him but he was probably somewhere else in another part of the building watching people now. then we were discussing again, just preceding that we were discussing the event with mr. stevenson, this was about weeks beforehand, this was fresh on our mind, and right after that we started discussing that it was a security man. we were looking around, we became very security conscious. we noted that policemen, i think there were maybe , maybe on the viaduct itself; some or , i would say to policemen being in that immediate area. representative ford. about what time, as you can best recollect, did this conversation with your wife take place? mr. rowland. about minutes until about after. i think i again looked at my watch. representative ford. after you and your wife looked up and saw that there was no one in the window, did you ever again look at the window? mr. rowland. yes; i did, constantly. representative ford. and as you looked at the window subsequently did you ever see anything else in the window? mr. rowland. no; not in that window, and i looked back every few seconds, seconds, maybe twice a minute, occasionally trying to find him so i could point him out to my wife. something i would like to note is that the window that i have been told the shots were actually fired from, i did not see that, there was someone hanging out that window at that time. representative ford. at what time was that? mr. rowland. at the time i saw the man in the other window, i saw this man hanging out the window first. it was a colored man, i think. representative ford. is this the same window where you saw the man standing with the rifle? mr. rowland. no; this was the one on the east end of the building, the one that they said the shots were fired from. representative ford. i am not clear on this now. the window that you saw the man that you describe was on what end of the building? mr. rowland. the west, southwest corner. representative ford. and the man you saw hanging out from the window was at what corner? mr. rowland. the east, southeast corner. representative ford. southeast corner. on the same floor? mr. rowland. on the same floor. representative ford. when did you notice him? mr. rowland. this was before i noticed the other man with the rifle. representative ford. i see. this was before you saw the man in the window with the rifle? mr. rowland. yes. my wife and i were both looking and making remarks that the people were hanging out the windows. i think the majority of them were colored people, some of them were hanging out the windows to their waist, such as this. we made several remarks to this fact, and then she started watching the colored boy, and i continued to look, and then i saw the man with the rifle. representative ford. after : or thereabouts you indicated you periodically looked back at the window in the southwest corner where you had seen the man with the rifle. what happened as the motorcade came along? mr. rowland. as the motorcade came along, there was quite a bit of excitement. i didn't look back from then. i was very interested in trying to see the president myself. i had seen him twice before but i was interested in seeing him again. representative ford. did you notice a sedan come by with any officials in it at the outset of the motorcade? mr. rowland. the first car in the motorcade was, i think it was, a white or cream-colored ford. this appeared to be full of detectives or such as this; rather husky men, large men. i think there were four in this car. representative ford. was this an open or a closed car? mr. rowland. this was a sedan, the doors were closed. representative ford. what was the next car you noticed? mr. rowland. the next car was the president's car. representative ford. did you notice again or did you look again during this period of time at the school depository building? mr. rowland. no. from where we were standing the motorcade came down main, and when it turned on houston we watched the motorcade, my wife remarked at jackie's clothing, mrs. kennedy, and we made a few remarks of her clothing and how she looked, her appearance in general, and we also discussed--we didn't immediately recognize governor connally and his wife being in the car, we were trying to figure out who that was. then the motorcade turned on elm and was obscured from our vision by a crowd, and we were discussing the clothing of mrs. kennedy at that time. my wife likes clothes. representative ford. you never again, after the motorcade once came into your view, looked back at the school depository building? mr. rowland. i did after the shots were fired. mr. specter. had you finished telling us all about the conversation between you and your wife concerning this man? mr. rowland. to the best of my recollection, yes. mr. specter. all right. you have described seeing someone in another window hanging out. would you draw a circle and put an "a" beside the window where you say you saw someone hanging out. that is on exhibit no. . (witness marking.) mr. specter. at about what time was it that you observed someone hanging out of the window that you have marked as window "a"? mr. rowland. again about : just before i noticed the other man. mr. specter. you have marked the double window there. would you draw the arrow in the red pencil indicating specifically which window it was. (witness marking.) mr. specter. will you describe with as much particularity as you can what that man looked like? mr. rowland. it seemed to me an elderly negro, that is about all. i didn't pay very much attention to him. mr. specter. at or about that time did you observe anyone else hanging out any window or observe any one through any window on the same floor where you have drawn the two circles on exhibit ? mr. rowland. no; no one else on that floor. mr. specter. you testified before that there were other windows where you had seen people hanging out, is that correct? mr. rowland. yes. mr. specter. would you tell us and indicate on the picture, exhibit , to the best of your ability to recollect just which those windows were? mr. rowland. there was either two or three people in this window. mr. specter. mark that with a "b" if you would, please. (witness marking.) mr. rowland. those pair of windows. i think this was all on that floor. here on this floor. mr. specter. indicating the second floor? mr. rowland. yes. mr. specter. circle the windows and mark it with a "c" if you will. mr. rowland. i think it was this pair immediately over the door, and this pair. mr. specter. mark one "c" and one "d," if you will. (witness marking.) mr. rowland. here i know there were two negro women, i think. mr. specter. indicating window "c." you say two negro women? mr. rowland. yes. mr. specter. and were those women each in one window, both in one window or what? mr. rowland. they were one in each window. then at the window "d" there was one, one window open. mr. specter. which was that, indicate that by an arrow, if you please. (witness marking.) mr. rowland. the one on the west side, and this appeared to have two heads just inside the window, no one hanging out the window as with the others. mr. specter. did you observe anyone else hanging out the window? mr. rowland. there was someone on the third floor. i think it was--wait a minute--yes, the third floor had three adjoining sets of windows that were open. they were all open to the fullest extent they would open. mr. specter. would you mark those "e," "f" and "g," please. (witness marking.) mr. specter. did you observe any people in those windows marked "e," "f," and "g"? mr. rowland. yes, and this pair, "e," both windows were open, and there appeared to be one man in the eastern window. mr. specter. which you have now marked with an arrow. mr. rowland. yes. mr. specter. how about as to window marked "f"? mr. rowland. both windows were completely up, and there appeared to be several people in that window, four or five, a number that i don't remember, you know i couldn't see all of them. mr. specter. how about window "g"? mr. rowland. this again, both windows were open all of the way and i think there was one person in each window. mr. specter. did you observe any other people either through any other window or hanging out of any other window in the building? mr. rowland. there was no one in the fourth floor to my knowledge, to my recollection. there were what appeared to be secretaries, several young white girls or ladies, standing on the steps of the building in this general area. mr. specter. indicating the door of the building. mr. rowland. yes. mr. specter. yes. mr. rowland. and there was no one else in there, except i think there was a policeman in front of the door on the sidewalk. mr. specter. have you described everybody you have observed, with respect to everybody hanging out the windows? mr. rowland. to the best of my recollection. mr. specter. or anybody you could see through the windows? mr. rowland. yes. mr. specter. as to the window which you have marked "a", that double pair of windows, which, if either or both, was open? mr. rowland. the one on the eastern side was open and not all of the way it would open. mr. specter. is that the one you have marked with an arrow? mr. rowland. yes. mr. specter. how much of that window was open? mr. rowland. it was open about that far. mr. specter. indicating - / feet? mr. rowland. two feet. mr. specter. two feet. mr. rowland. indicating feet. it looked like the windows might open --two-thirds or three-fourths of the distance. mr. specter. how about the other of the windows in the double-set marked "a," was that completely closed? mr. rowland. yes. mr. specter. how about the windows in the group marked "b," was either of those windows open? mr. rowland. they were both completely open. mr. specter. can you describe with any more particularity the people you saw in the window which you have marked "b"? mr. rowland. there was a white man hanging out either "g" or "b," i do not remember which. he was the only white man, besides the man in these windows that i saw---- mr. specter. when you said "these windows" you mean the first window you marked with a black circle and a black arrow? mr. rowland. yes. mr. specter. is there anything else you can tell us about the people you saw in window "b"? mr. rowland. i think to the best of my recollection there was either two or three people in window "b," and as i stated before, either "b" or "g" had a white man in the window. i do not remember which. i do remember it was one of the windows on the corner. mr. specter. do you recollect if the other people in window "b" were white or negro? mr. rowland. they were negro. mr. specter. now, did you have any occasion to look back at window "a" from the time you saw the man whom you described as a negro gentleman in that window until the president's procession passed by? mr. rowland. well, up until the time the procession was---- (short recess.) representative ford. i suggest, mr. specter, we resume the hearing. mr. specter. will you read the last question, mr. reporter, please. (question read.) mr. specter. would you like to start the question again or would you like the question repeated? mr. rowland. i understand the question. let me see, the exact time i do not remember, but the man, the colored man, was in that window until the procession reached commerce--i mean main, and ervay. i was looking back quite often, as i stated. mr. specter. how do you fix the time that he was there until the procession reached the intersection of commerce and ervay? mr. rowland. the police motorcycle was almost in front of me with the speaker on very loud, giving the relative position about every or seconds of the motorcade, and this is how i was able to note that. mr. specter. were you observing the window which you marked "a" at the time he departed? mr. rowland. no, i didn't. i just know, i was looking at the crowd around, and then i glanced back up again, and neither did i see the man with the rifle nor did i see him. the colored man went away. mr. specter. how long was that after you first noticed the colored man in the window "a"? mr. rowland. fifteen minutes. mr. specter. had you looked back at window "a" at any time during that minute interval? mr. rowland. yes. mr. specter. had you seen anybody in window "a" during that time? mr. rowland. the colored man was that---- mr. specter. so how many times did you notice him altogether? mr. rowland. several. i think i looked back about two, maybe three times a minute, an average. i was, you know, trying to find the man with the rifle to point him out to my wife. i noticed the colored man in that window. i looked at practically every window in the building but i didn't look at anything with the detail to see what i was looking for. mr. specter. over how long a time span did you observe the negro man to be in the window marked "a"? mr. rowland. he was there before i noticed the man with the rifle and approximately : or when the motorcade was at main and ervay he was gone when i looked back and i had looked up there about seconds before or a minute before. mr. specter. how long after you heard the motorcade was at main and ervay did the motorcade pass by where you were? mr. rowland. another minutes. mr. specter. so that you observed this colored man on the window you have marked "a" within minutes prior to the time the motorcade passed in front of you? mr. rowland. approximately minutes prior to the time the motorcade came, he wasn't there. about seconds or a minute prior to that time he was there. mr. specter. a few moments ago in your testimony you stated that in observing policemen in the area you had observed some officers on the overpass? mr. rowland. yes. mr. specter. approximately how far were you from the overpass at that time? mr. rowland. yards approximately. mr. specter. were you able to observe with clarity the individuals who were standing on the overpass? mr. rowland. not with detailed distinction. i do remember there were three women there, two or three men, a couple of boys, and two officers on the overpass itself. mr. specter. how did you identify the officers as being policemen? mr. rowland. they were uniformed officers. mr. specter. what kind of uniforms were they wearing? mr. rowland. blue; i think trimmed in gold, uniforms. mr. specter. are those the regular uniforms worn by the dallas police? mr. rowland. yes. mr. specter. where were you standing at the time you observed the people on the overpass whom you have just described? mr. rowland. position "b." mr. specter. at about what time was it when you observed those individuals? mr. rowland. this was between the time between : and : . i think i looked more than once. mr. specter. how many times did you look? mr. rowland. i don't know really. i was more or less scanning the crowd. mr. specter. did the individuals present on the triple overpass change at the various times when you looked in that direction? mr. rowland. i don't think so. i don't think anyone went off who was up there or anyone else went on. mr. specter. will you now relate what occurred as the presidential motorcade passed by you? mr. rowland. well, the car turned the corner at houston and main. everyone was rushing, pressing the cars, trying to get closer. there were quite a few people, you know, trying to run alongside of the car such as this; officers were trying to prevent this. the car turned--we had more or less a long period of time that they were within our sight considering some of the other people. the car went down houston, again turned on elm, and it was proceeding down elm when we heard the first of the reports. this i passed off as a backfire, so did practically everyone in the area because gobs of people, when i say gobs, i mean almost everyone in the vicinity, started laughing that couldn't see the motorcade. the motorcade was obscured from our vision by the crowd. mr. specter. what would the occasion be for laughter on the sound of a backfire? mr. rowland. i don't know. a lot of people laughed. i don't know. but a lot of people laughed, chuckled, such as this. then approximately seconds, or seconds, the second report was heard, seconds the third report. after the second report, i knew what it was, and---- mr. specter. what was it? mr. rowland. i knew that it was a gun firing. mr. specter. how did you know that? mr. rowland. i have been around guns quite a bit in my lifetime. mr. specter. was the sound of the fire different from the first and second sounds you described? mr. rowland. no, that is just it. it did not sound as though there was any return fire in that sense. mr. specter. what do you mean by return fire? mr. rowland. that anyone fired back. you know, anyone in the procession such as our detectives or secret service men fired back at anything else. it gave the report of a rifle which most of the secret service men don't carry in a holster although i am sure they had some in the cars but the following two shots were the same report being of the same intensity. i state, because from a different position i know that the same rifle is not going to make the same sound in two different positions especially in a position such as it was, because of the ricocheting of sound and echo effects. mr. specter. what is your basis for saying that, mr. rowland, that the rifle would not make the same sound in two different positions? mr. rowland. this is due to a long study of sound and study of echo effects. mr. specter. when had you conducted that study? mr. rowland. in physics in the past years. mr. specter. have you read any special books on that subject? mr. rowland. quite a few. mr. specter. do you recollect any of the titles and authors? mr. rowland. no; i do not. mr. specter. did you take any special courses which would give you insight into that subject matter? mr. rowland. this was more or less on my own initiative. the instructor gave me help and aided me when i requested this during my off periods of class. mr. specter. what instructor was that? mr. rowland. his name was foster. mr. specter. do you recall his first name? mr. rowland. sam. mr. specter. and at what school does he teach? mr. rowland. he teaches at crozier tech, downtown technical high school. mr. specter. is he still there? mr. rowland. to my knowledge. mr. specter. how recently did you have a course with him? mr. rowland. last year, last school year. mr. specter. can you describe the second sound by comparison with the first sound which you have described as being similar to a backfire? mr. rowland. the second to my recollection was identical or as closely as could be. mr. specter. how about the third shot? mr. rowland. the same. mr. specter. sounded the same to you? mr. rowland. yes. mr. specter. did you have any impression or reaction as to the point of origin when you heard the first noise? mr. rowland. well, i began looking, i didn't look at the building mainly, and as practically any of the police officers that were there then will tell you, the echo effect was such that it sounded like it came from the railroad yards. that is where i looked, that is where all the policemen, everyone, converged on the railroads. mr. specter. when you say railroad yards, what area are you referring to? identify it on commission exhibit no. , for example? mr. rowland. in this area in here. now most of the officers converged on this area---- mr. specter. when you say "in here," i will get a black pencil here and see if we can draw a circle around the area where you have described the echo effect? mr. rowland. the echo effect felt as though it came from this general vicinity. mr. specter. mark that with the letter "c" in the center of your circle. (witness marking.) mr. specter. now, as to the second shot, did you have any impression as to the point of origin or source? mr. rowland. the same point or very close to it. mr. specter. and how about the third shot? mr. rowland. very close to the same position. mr. specter. where did you look, if you recall, after you heard the first shot, in what direction? mr. rowland. we were standing here at position "b." at the sound of the second report, i proceeded across the street. my wife was very anxious to find out what was going on. i proceeded to cross the street like this. mr. specter. indicating you were--she was pulling you ahead? mr. rowland. yes. she was very anxious to find out what was going on. mr. specter. that was at the sound of the second report? mr. rowland. yes, it was. mr. specter. and will you mark with this black pencil, with the letter "d," where you went to, as she pulled you across the street? mr. rowland. we crossed the street in this area, proceeded down the sidewalk, around here, there was quite a bit of crowd, people were running. mr. specter. where were you at the time that you heard the second report? mr. rowland. at the second report we were approximately at the curb, out from the curb, we were off the sidewalk. mr. specter. at point "v"? mr. rowland. yes. mr. specter. how about the third shot, where were you then? mr. rowland. at the third shot i was in this vicinity halfway to where we crossed the street to the end of the block. mr. specter. would you indicate with the letter "d" where you were at the time of the third shot? (witness marking.) mr. specter. where did you look when you heard the third report? mr. rowland. well, we were trying to actually see the president's car, that is what my wife was trying to do, and then i decided i might as well give in to her. mr. specter. after the shots occurred, did you ever look back at the texas school book depository building? mr. rowland. no; i did not. in fact, i went over toward the scene of the railroad yards myself. mr. specter. why did you not look back at the texas school book depository building in view of the fact that you had seen a man with a rifle up there earlier in the day? mr. rowland. i don't remember. it was mostly due to the confusion, and then the fact that it sounded like it came from this area "c," and that all the officers, enforcement officers, were converging on that area, and i just didn't pay any attention to it at that time. mr. specter. how many officers were converging on that area, to the best of your ability to recollect and estimate? mr. rowland. i think it would be a very good estimation of , maybe more. mr. specter. do you know how fast the president's automobile was driving as it proceeded in front of you when you were standing at position "b"? mr. rowland. very slow pace, , miles an hour. mr. specter. when, if at all, did you first report what you had observed in the texas school book depository building about the man with the rifle to anyone in an official position? mr. rowland. that was approximately minutes after the third report that i went to an officer, he was a plainclothesman who was there combing the area, close to position "c," looking for footprints and such as this, some lady said someone jumped off one of the colonnades and started running, there was an officer looking in this area for footprints and such as this. mr. specter. was that lady ever identified to you? mr. rowland. no; i do not remember his name. he introduced himself and showed me his id. mr. specter. i mean the lady you talked about. mr. rowland. no; i don't. mr. specter. now as to the officer to whom you made a report, was he a state, city or federal official, if you know? mr. rowland. it was a dallas detective. mr. specter. and did you give him a statement or what procedure did he follow? mr. rowland. it happened such as this: he was looking in this area for footprints or any visible marks. i started looking around also. i found a fountain pen that someone had probably dropped during the confusion or fell out of their pocket when they fell on the ground or such. i picked it up and handed it to him. i had on gloves, i wasn't to mess up the fingerprints because it very possibly could have fallen out of the pocket of the man who supposedly had jumped down. mr. specter. you were wearing gloves on that day? mr. rowland. yes. mr. specter. was it a chilly day? mr. rowland. the sun was shining, it was a fair day but the wind was blowing and it was breezy. mr. specter. was it cold enough to have gloves? mr. rowland. yes; i had on my overcoat and my wife had a fairly heavy coat. mr. specter. proceed, and tell us what you did. mr. rowland. i handed this pen to the officer and i started thinking and i went to him and told him again just before the motorcade came i saw a man in the building with a rifle, and he immediately took me to sheriff decker which, in turn, asked two other deputies to take me to his office. we went there to his office. there was quite a few reporters around, such as this. they took my wife and i to a back room and shut us off completely from the reporters and everyone. there was no one in that room for hours but this sheriff and a fbi agent, agent sorrels, and a stenographer, and i think another lady and a man that had seen another man carrying a rifle in a case on the other end of town earlier prior to this time. mr. specter. are you sure there was a court reporter present? mr. rowland. it was one of the secretaries from the office of the sheriff, stenographer who was taking, using an electric typewriter every time. mr. specter. was she taking down in shorthand---- mr. rowland. yes. mr. specter. as you could observe---- mr. rowland. yes. mr. specter. each word that you were saying? mr. rowland. yes. mr. specter. did she have any sort of a machine, such as a stenograph, as the gentleman who is serving as court reporter has? mr. rowland. no; she took it down in shorthand and retyped it on an electric typewriter that she brought into the room. mr. specter. did she type up what you had said? mr. rowland. yes; typed up three or four copies and then i signed it at that time. mr. specter. i now show you a photostatic copy of what purports to be an affidavit which you gave to the sheriff's department of the county of dallas, tex., on november , , and has been marked as commission exhibit no. . would you take a look at that, take your time, of course, and tell us whether or not that is the affidavit which you took on the occasion which you have just related? mr. rowland. yes. in fact, at this time i also noted that my wife dragged me across the street. mr. specter. just one detail on that statement: there is a reference here to the man holding the rifle being in a position which you describe as "a parade-rest sort of position." that appears---- mr. rowland. it does appear in there? mr. specter. eighteen lines down. mr. rowland. yes; i see it. it wasn't a parade-rest position. it was a port-arms position. i never noticed that in there before. there were--actually, i will say this, i said what i had to say. the fbi agent reworded it, and she took it down. now this happened; it wasn't my words verbatim, it was reworded. mr. specter. did you ever use the words "parade-rest" position? mr. rowland. not to my recollection. mr. specter. so it is just an error in transcription which you did not notice when you signed it. (at this point, chief justice warren entered the hearing room.) is there any other aspect of the affidavit which you gave, which you have just observed, which is at variance with your current recollection of what you saw and heard on that date? mr. rowland. here it states we were at the west entrance of the sheriff's office, that is just a general approximation, we were feet from there, in fact. mr. specter. are there any other portions of it which vary from your current recollection? mr. rowland. i don't remember saying definitely that he was back about feet. in fact, i think i said, as i said now, to feet, because from my point of view if he was back feet i couldn't have even seen him. mr. specter. are there any other parts of the affidavit which vary from your current recollection? mr. rowland. the actual time between the reports i would say now, after having had time to consider the seconds between the first and second report and two between the second and third. it is very fast for a bolt-loading rifle. mr. specter. do you recall whether or not the statement is accurate in that you told the police officials at that time that there was a time span of seconds between the first and second shots and a time span of seconds between the second and third shots? mr. rowland. i think i did tell them that, yes, sir. mr. specter. and with respect to the facts which appear in the statement that you said the man was standing about feet back from the windows, did you actually tell them that when you made the statement, or is that an error of transcription? mr. rowland. i don't think i said that. mr. specter. now are there any other points where the affidavit is at variance from your current recollection? mr. rowland. the time that it states here, we arrived in downtown dallas at approximately : . actually we arrived before but we took the position that we have, approximately : , that position "v" on this other exhibit . mr. specter. are there any other variances between your current recollection and this statement? mr. rowland. i do not think so. mr. specter. did you tell the police officials at the time you made this statement that there was a negro gentleman in the window on the southwest corner of the texas school book depository building which you have marked with a circle "a"--pardon me, southeast? mr. rowland. at that time, no. however, the next day on saturday there were a pair of fbi officers, agents out at my home, and they took another handwritten statement from me which i signed again, and this was basically the same. at that time i told them i did see the negro man there and they told me it didn't have any bearing or such on the case right then. in fact, they just the same as told me to forget it now. mr. specter. mr. reporter, will you please repeat that last answer for us? (answer read.) mr. specter. i am now handing you a document which i have marked as commission exhibit no. , which purports to be a reproduction of a statement which was purportedly given by you to the fbi, two agents of that bureau. will you take a look at that and tell us if that is the statement which you gave to the fbi to which you just referred? mr. rowland. again, i have a variance of time and a variance of distance that he was from the window. mr. specter. before you direct your attention to those factors, mr. rowland, are you able to tell us whether or not this is the statement which you gave to the fbi? mr. rowland. yes. my wife was with me when i gave the statement. mr. specter. and without looking at the statement which, may the record show, you are not now doing, do you recollect the names of the fbi, don't look there, just tell me if you can recollect without seeing their names on the statement? mr. rowland. no, sir; i talked to seven different pairs of fbi agents and i don't remember their names. mr. specter. seven different pairs? mr. rowland. yes, sir; i had--this is only one of the statements. they came to my home or where i worked and took three more besides this one. there were four handwritten statements that i signed. mr. specter. before getting the details on those, tell me in what respect, if any, the statement which we have identified as commission exhibit no. differs from what you told the fbi agents at that time? mr. rowland. i do not think it differs. mr. specter. then that statement accurately reflects what you said at that time? mr. rowland. yes; i am sure it does. mr. specter. now, in what respects, if any, does that statement vary from your current recollection about the facts which are contained therein? mr. rowland. the time factor, the time that we arrived in town. here again it states : . now this is the time that we arrived at the position that we stayed at, not the time we arrived in town, and the distance the man was back from the window. here it states to feet. i do not remember saying that although i very well could have. everything was confusing. mr. specter. but what is your current recollection on the distance that the man was back from the window? mr. rowland. three to four, five feet, somewhere in that neighborhood. he wasn't very far. far enough for the sunlight to hit him and at the angle the sun was that wouldn't be very far. mr. specter. now noticing that the date on that statement is november , , does that appear to you to be the date when that statement was taken, or was it taken on the d, the day after the assassination? mr. rowland. it was saturday morning, the th. mr. specter. on what day was the assassination? mr. rowland. it was thursday, wasn't it? mr. specter. no; the assassination occurred on friday. mr. rowland. i am sorry, that is right. it is so confused in this. mr. specter. well, was the statement taken the second day after the assassination or the morning of the first day after the assassination? mr. rowland. no; it was taken on saturday morning before i went to work because on sunday there was another statement taken from me at my job where i was working. this occurred right after oswald was shot himself. mr. specter. well, are you able to identify that statement which we have marked exhibit , as the statement taken on saturday, the d, as distinguished from the statement taken on sunday, the th of november? mr. rowland. yes. mr. specter. how can you be certain of that, mr. rowland? mr. rowland. the one on sunday, this particular one, i do remember the agent used a legal pad. he did have three pages of it handwritten. i made corrections on this in different parts of it. the one on sunday was not a legal pad. it was a steno pad and it, in fact, covered a page and a half, i think, and it was concerned with mainly could i identify the man that i saw, his description. mr. specter. now, at the time you made the saturday statement, which you say was transcribed and appears as exhibit , did you at that time tell the interviewing fbi agents about the colored gentleman who you testified was in the window which you marked with an "a"? mr. rowland. yes; i did. mr. specter. did you ask them at that time to include the information in the statement which they took from you? mr. rowland. no. i think i told them about it after the statement, as an afterthought, an afterthought came up, it came into my mind. i also told the agents that took a statement from me on sunday. they didn't seem very interested, so i just forgot about it for a while. mr. specter. was that information included in the written portion of the statement which was taken from you on sunday? mr. rowland. no, it wasn't. it shouldn't but the agent deleted it though himself, i mean i included it in what i gave. mr. specter. when you say deleted it, did he strike it out after putting it in, or did he omit it in the transcription? mr. rowland. omitted it. senator cooper. i think you said a while ago that when you told the fbi agents on saturday that you had seen this negro man in the window, that they indicated to you that they weren't interested in it at all. what did they say which gave you that impression? mr. rowland. i don't remember exactly what was said. the context was again the agents were trying to find out if i could positively identify the man that i saw. they were concerned mainly with this, and i brought up to them about the negro man after i had signed the statement, and at that time he just told me that they were just trying to find out about or if anyone could identify the man who was up there. they just didn't seem interested at all. they didn't pursue the point. they didn't take it down in the notation as such. mr. specter. it was more of the fact that they didn't pursue it, didn't include it? mr. rowland. yes. mr. specter. or that they said something which led you to believe they were not interested? mr. rowland. it was just the fact they didn't pursue it. i mean, i just mentioned that i saw him in that window. they didn't ask me, you know, if was this at the same time or such. they just didn't seem very interested in that at all. mr. wright. by man who was up there you mean man with the rifle? mr. rowland. they were interested in the man with the rifle, and finding out if anyone could identify him. the other man was the colored man in the other window. representative ford. a minute ago you indicated that you could see the man in the window with the rifle because of the light conditions, i think you referred to the sun shining in that direction toward the building. was the sun bright, do you recall that at all? mr. rowland. yes; the sun was out, somewhat bright. i didn't have any sunglasses on at that time because i had broken them the week before, and i hadn't gotten any new ones. the sun was shining in from what i could tell he was standing where i seen him through the window on my right. this would be the east window of the pair. it appeared as though the sun were shining in through either a window on the other side of the building, on the west side of the building, or possibly the western pair, one of the pair. this sun was--that hit him about from the shoulders down as far as i could see, that is why i was able to tell the rifle was of the type or such that it was. representative ford. as you faced the window, as you faced the building, the sun was shining over which shoulder, to your left or your right shoulder? mr. rowland. as i faced the building the sun was shining--well, i would have been facing the building if the building were in this direction more or less this way and the sun would have been shining from this area. representative ford. over your left shoulder? mr. rowland. yes; forward. representative ford. that is all. mr. specter. were you able to identify the man whom you saw in the window with the rifle for the fbi agents? mr. rowland. no. mr. specter. did they have pictures with them at that time? mr. rowland. i have seen three pictures of lee harvey oswald, two of them in the paper. they had a morning newspaper was all they had. it wasn't a very good picture, and i couldn't tell. i didn't know, i wasn't going to say because i didn't, i mean. i just couldn't identify him. i wouldn't be--i had already resigned myself not to be given that task, because i couldn't definitely say any one man was that man. mr. specter. and what was the basis of your concluding, as you put it, that you resigned yourself to that task? mr. rowland. this was because i just didn't have a good enough look at his face. mr. specter. was that your conclusion at this moment that you are unable to identify, with precision and certainty, the man whom you saw holding the rifle in the window of the texas school book depository building? mr. rowland. yes; that is true. mr. specter. do you believe that you could identify the negro gentleman in window "a" whom you testified you saw? mr. rowland. i would have to say perhaps. i can't say for sure. mr. specter. a moment ago you testified that you gave statements to seven different pairs of fbi agents. have you already testified about three of those occasions, or, stated differently, start at the beginning and tell us, as best you can recollect, what were those occasions, when they occurred, where you were when you had those meetings with the seven different pairs of agents. mr. rowland. the first statement i gave was in the sheriff's office on that date. mr. specter. were there two fbi agents present? mr. rowland. i think there were. mr. specter. and do you recollect their names? mr. rowland. no, i do not. mr. specter. when was the second occasion? mr. rowland. the saturday morning. mr. specter. where was that statement given? mr. rowland. that was in the agent's car in front of my mother-in-law's house. mr. specter. do you recollect the identities of those fbi agents? mr. rowland. no, i do not. mr. specter. that is the statement you have identified as being reproduced in commission exhibit ? mr. rowland. yes. mr. specter. now, when was the third statement obtained? mr. rowland. it was sunday morning, the following day, november . mr. specter. where was that statement obtained? mr. rowland. this was at my place of employment at the pizza inn. mr. specter. now, sunday after the assassination would have been the th. mr. rowland. yes; that is right, i am sorry, sir. mr. specter. are you certain of the day of the week, however? mr. rowland. yes; i am certain of that because i went to work at noon on sunday and they were there when i got to work, they were waiting on me. mr. specter. that is the statement which you described as having been taken on a stenopad? mr. rowland. yes. mr. specter. did you sign that statement? mr. rowland. yes; i did. this was in the presence of my wife because she was there. mr. specter. do you recollect the identity of those fbi agents? mr. rowland. no; i do not, sir. mr. specter. when was the fourth statement taken? mr. rowland. the fourth was tuesday night of that week. mr. specter. of the following week? mr. rowland. yes. mr. specter. where was that statement taken? mr. rowland. this was at my mother-in-law's house, and---- mr. specter. was that reduced to writing? mr. rowland. that was merely one paragraph. they were concerned with identification of the man that i saw. mr. specter. what did you tell them essentially at that time? mr. rowland. the description and that i could not positively identify him. mr. specter. did you sign a statement for them at that time? mr. rowland. yes; i did. mr. specter. do you know the identity of those fbi agents? mr. rowland. no, sir; i don't. mr. specter. up to this point were any of the fbi agents the same who had interviewed you and taken statements from you? mr. rowland. no, sir. mr. specter. all different? mr. rowland. yes. mr. specter. when did the fifth occasion take place when you were interviewed by the fbi? mr. rowland. this was again where i worked. this was, it was not a formal written statement. they just took notes on what i said, had me recount that entire thing to the best of my knowledge. mr. specter. when did this occur, the fifth one? mr. rowland. it was on the following friday. mr. specter. about what time of the day or night was it? mr. rowland. about : p.m. mr. specter. at the pizza inn? mr. rowland. yes; dallas time. mr. specter. and do you recall the identities of those fbi agents? mr. rowland. no; i don't. mr. specter. were they the same as any who had ever interviewed you before? mr. rowland. no, sir; none of them are the same. mr. specter. when was the sixth occasion when you were interviewed by the fbi? mr. rowland. it was again on sunday. mr. specter. this would have been november--it would have been december st? mr. rowland. i don't remember that date but it was---- mr. specter. the second sunday after the assassination? mr. rowland. yes. mr. specter. where was the sixth interview conducted? mr. rowland. this was at the pizza inn. mr. specter. about what time of the day or night was that? mr. rowland. about o'clock. this was again right after i came to work. mr. specter. was the statement taken from you at that time reduced to writing? mr. rowland. it was again informal, just taking notes on my statement, had me recount what i had told the other agents. mr. specter. what were they interested in specifically at that time if you recall? mr. rowland. they just wanted me to recount everything that i could recall. mr. specter. do you know the identity of those agents? mr. rowland. no, sir; i don't. mr. specter. were they again different agents? mr. rowland. yes; they were. mr. specter. from all those you had seen before? mr. rowland. yes. mr. specter. when had you given the seventh statement to the fbi? mr. rowland. the last statement i gave i think it was to one fbi agent and a secret service agent. mr. specter. when did that occur? mr. rowland. that was either tuesday or wednesday of the week. i do not remember which. mr. specter. on the week following the sunday when you gave the sixth statement? mr. rowland. yes. mr. specter. do you recall the identities of those men? mr. rowland. no, sir; i don't. mr. specter. had you ever seen either before? mr. rowland. no, sir; i hadn't. mr. specter. did they reduce your statement to writing? mr. rowland. no, sir; they just had me recount everything again. mr. specter. in addition to the times you have already stated, have you ever been interviewed by the fbi on any other occasion? mr. rowland. no, sir. mr. specter. have you ever been interviewed by the secret service on any other occasion? mr. rowland. the afternoon of the d and the seventh time was the only two times of the secret service. mr. specter. there was a secret service agent present in the sheriff's office? mr. rowland. yes; he was agent sorrels. mr. specter. when you gave the affidavit which we have identified as commission exhibit ? mr. rowland. yes. mr. specter. in addition to the times you have mentioned, have you ever been interviewed by any agent or representative of the federal government? mr. rowland. no, sir; i have not. mr. specter. have you been interviewed by any other agent or representative of the state government of texas? mr. rowland. no, sir. mr. specter. now, on any of the other occasions, other than those you testified about, did you mention seeing the negro gentleman in the window which we have circled with the "a"? mr. rowland. no, sir. mr. specter. mr. rowland, what was the quality of your grades in high school? mr. rowland. well, up until my senior year they were . straight a's, in my senior year i got a couple of b's. mr. specter. do you know what your iq or intelligence quotient is? mr. rowland. . mr. specter. do you know when you were tested for that? mr. rowland. in ; in may. mr. specter. mr. rowland, a couple of other questions. are you able to give us any other type of a description of the negro gentleman whom you observed in the window we marked "a" with respect to height, weight, age? mr. rowland. he was very thin, an elderly gentleman, bald or practically bald, very thin hair if he wasn't bald. had on a plaid shirt. i think it was red and green, very bright color, that is why i remember it. mr. specter. can you give us an estimate as to age? mr. rowland. fifty; possibly or . mr. specter. can you give us an estimate as to height? mr. rowland. ' ", ' ", in that neighborhood. he was very slender, very thin. mr. specter. can you give us a more definite description as to complexion? mr. rowland. very dark or fairly dark, not real dark compared to some negroes, but fairly dark. seemed like his face was either--i can't recall detail but it was either very wrinkled or marked in some way. mr. specter. shortly after the assassination and before these interviews that you described were completed, mr. rowland, had you learned or heard that the shots were supposed to have come out of the window which we have marked with the "a"? mr. rowland. no, sir. i did not know that, in fact until saturday when i read the paper. mr. specter. which saturday is that? mr. rowland. the following saturday. mr. specter. would that be the second day, the day after the assassination? mr. rowland. yes. mr. specter. well, knowing that, at that time, did you attach any particular significance to the presence of the negro gentleman, whom you have described, that you saw in window "a"? mr. rowland. yes; that is why i brought it to the attention of the fbi agents who interviewed me that day. this was as an afterthought because i did not think of it firsthand. but i did bring it to their attention before they left, and they---- mr. specter. that was at the interview on the saturday morning november ? mr. rowland. yes. mr. specter. did you think it of sufficient significance to bring it to the attention of any of the other interviewing fbi agents on the balance of the interviews you have described? mr. rowland. yes; i did on the following sunday to the agents who interviewed me where i worked. mr. specter. how about the following sunday? mr. rowland. no; i did not. mr. specter. mr. chief justice, at this time i move for the admission into evidence of the three exhibits which we have shown this witness. the chairman. they may be admitted. mr. specter. exhibits nos. , , and . that completes our questioning, your honor. (the documents referred to were marked commission's exhibits nos. , , and for identification and admitted into evidence.) the chairman. senator cooper, have you any questions? senator cooper. you said earlier that you had been much interested in and pursued studies in sounds, i believe? mr. rowland. i have studied quite a bit of electronics, sound. math and science is what i like. senator cooper. you said you had read books on this subject. did you ever conduct any experiments yourself? mr. rowland. yes; in the form of--there is a theory that sound is a basis of a transmitter and a receiver, that you have to have a receiver to have sound. there is a theory that if a tree falls down in the middle of a forest and there is nobody around where they can hear it, there is no sound. well, i have conducted experiments on this, and i--it is very interesting, very fascinating, but you can't prove it or you can't disprove it because if you have got a microphone there you have got a receiver. senator cooper. did you ever conduct any experiments with rifles, firing a rifle in relation to sound? mr. rowland. yes; in a firing range. senator cooper. beg pardon? mr. rowland. firing range. senator cooper. yes. mr. rowland. i did conduct a few experiments. one of them was firing a bullet over water; you know, we were using a set of wood blocks to fire into, so we had a big vat of water that we were firing over, and we had several different articles and composition floating on the water, trying to measure the effect of the sound wave upon that. such as this we did conduct. senator cooper. i think you did say that when you heard the first report that you considered it to be a rifle shot? mr. rowland. i did, but almost immediately everyone started laughing so i did not give it any further consideration until the second shot, second report. senator cooper. at the time you saw a man standing near a window in the texas school book depository with a rifle, can you state whether there were any, did you know whether or not any police officers were near you? mr. rowland. there was an officer about feet to my left. senator cooper. did you see any others? mr. rowland. there were officers all over, that was the closest one. there were four or five on the block across the street from me, two of them being with the boy who had the epileptic fit. there was also an officer in front of the doors to that building. there were several on the corners. i would say there were uniformed officers right there in that - / -block area. senator cooper. could any of the officers that you saw whose position you noted, have seen this window from the place where they were standing? mr. rowland. they could have; yes, sir. senator cooper. you don't remember whether any of them were looking up there? mr. rowland. no; i don't remember whether they were. no; i don't. senator cooper. did it occur to you that you should speak to the officer about seeing a man in the window? mr. rowland. it has. do you ever have reoccurring dreams, sir? senator cooper. what? mr. rowland. do you ever have reoccurring dreams? senator cooper. yes. mr. rowland. this is a reoccurring dream of mine, sir, all the time, what if i had told someone about it. i knew about it enough in advance and perhaps it could have been prevented. i mean this is something which shakes me up at times. senator cooper. i don't want to disturb you about that but my point was at the time did you--i think you said, though, you thought that he was a--he could have been a--secret service man, officer. mr. rowland. yes; that is right. senator cooper. that is all. the chairman. anything further, congressman ford? representative ford. mr. rowland, have you ever had occasion to go back to the scene and reconstruct it? have you ever gone back---- the chairman. supposing we take a few minutes recess. mr. rowland. the answer to that question is yes; i do all the time. i pass that area very frequently. the chairman. any other questions, gentlemen, mr. wright? mr. wright. no, your honor. the chairman. very well, mr. rowland, i want to thank you for coming here and cooperating with the commission. i know that this is a matter that recalls very sordid thoughts to your mind, and i can see how you would be somewhat distressed about it but you have been very frank and cooperative with us and i appreciate it. we will take a short recess. (short recess.) testimony of james richard worrell, jr. the chairman. all right. will you raise your right hand and be sworn, please? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before this commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. worrell. yes, sir. the chairman. will you be seated, please. mr. worrell, the purpose of today's hearing is to hear the testimony of arnold louis rowland, amos lee evins, yourself, and robert jackson, who were in the vicinity of the assassination scene on november , . the commission proposes to ask you and the other witnesses for facts concerning your knowledge of the assassination of the president. mr. worrell. yes, sir. the chairman. mr. specter, will you proceed with the examination. mr. specter. will you state your full name for the record, please? mr. worrell. james richard worrell, jr. the chairman. senator, will you preside while i answer a phone call to another member of the commission? mr. specter. what is your address, mr. worrell? mr. worrell. winterhaven drive. mr. specter. what city is that? mr. worrell. in dallas, it is the farmers branch of the suburb of dallas. mr. specter. how long have you resided in dallas, tex.? mr. worrell. about years. mr. specter. and where did you live before that? mr. worrell. storey lane. mr. specter. and in what city is storey lane located? mr. worrell. dallas. mr. specter. where were you born? mr. worrell. livermore, calif. mr. specter. and how old are you at the present time? mr. worrell. twenty. mr. specter. how long did you live in california? mr. worrell. i am not exactly sure. i was a little bitty old thing and i think it was or years. mr. specter. where did you move from california? mr. worrell. from california we moved to abilene, i think. mr. specter. abilene, tex.? mr. worrell. yes. mr. specter. and have you lived in texas since that time? mr. worrell. yes. mr. specter. what is your marital status? mr. worrell. sir? mr. specter. are you married or single? mr. worrell. single, sir. mr. specter. do you live with your parents? mr. worrell. my mother and sister. mr. specter. and how much schooling have you had? mr. worrell. eleven years. mr. specter. when did you end your schooling, if you have ended it? mr. worrell. i ended it october of this year, i quit. mr. specter. what school were you going to at that time? mr. worrell. thomas jefferson. mr. specter. high school? mr. worrell. high school; yes, sir. mr. specter. located in dallas, tex.? mr. worrell. yes, sir. mr. specter. and were you in the th grade or had you completed the th grade? mr. worrell. i was a senior. mr. specter. how were your grades in school? mr. worrell. average. (the chief justice entered the hearing room at this point.) mr. specter. how were you occupied or employed back on november , ? mr. worrell. i was in school then. i skipped school to go there. mr. specter. you were attending jefferson high school on that day or were enrolled at that time? mr. worrell. i was enrolled but i hadn't been going since october. mr. specter. was there any special reason for your not going since october? mr. worrell. no, sir. mr. specter. had you been employed anywhere from the time you stopped going to school? mr. worrell. yes, sir. i was employed for el capitan oil drilling out in kermit, tex. mr. specter. what sort of work were you doing for them? mr. worrell. i was a floor man on a derrick. mr. specter. did you say floor man? mr. worrell. yes. mr. specter. on november , , were you working on that day for your employer? mr. worrell. no. i didn't start this oil job until--it was the last of january. mr. specter. of ? mr. worrell. yes. mr. specter. and are you working for them at the present time? mr. worrell. no, sir. mr. specter. whom are you working for now? mr. worrell. i am not employed now. mr. specter. then going back to november , , you had no job at that time? mr. worrell. yes, sir. mr. specter. and did you attend school that day at all? mr. worrell. no, sir. mr. specter. will you outline for us briefly what your activities were from the time you awakened until about noon time on november ? mr. worrell. well, i got up about, well, i got up at my usual time, about : . i was going to go to school that day but i decided to go see the president and my mother left about : , and my sister left about a quarter of . i left about , and hitchhiked down to love field and got there. it took me quite a while to get there, about , and just messed around there until the president come in, whatever time that was. and then i didn't get to see him good at all. so, i caught a bus and went over, went downtown and i just, i don't know, happened to pick that place at the depository, and i stood at the corner of elm and houston. mr. specter. did you leave love field before the president did? mr. worrell. oh, yes. mr. specter. why did you happen to leave love field before he left? mr. worrell. well, so i could see him better. mr. specter. couldn't you get a good view of him at love field? mr. worrell. no, i just saw him off the plane and i figured that i wasn't going to see him good so i was going to get a better place to see him. mr. specter. how did you travel from love field down to elm and houston? mr. worrell. bus. no, no; i just traveled so far on the bus. i went down to elm, and took a bus from there. i went down as far as, i don't know where that bus stops, anyway i got close to there and i walked the rest of the way. mr. specter. what time, to the best of your recollection, did you arrive at the intersection of elm and houston? mr. worrell. well, about , : , : , something around there. there weren't many people standing around there then. mr. specter. well, about how long before the presidential motorcade came to elm and houston did you get there? mr. worrell. an hour; an hour and a half. mr. specter. are you sure you were at love field when the president arrived there? mr. worrell. oh, yes. mr. specter. all right. now i am going to show you a photograph which i have marked as commission exhibit no. . take a look at that, if you would, please, and tell us whether or not you can identify what scene that is? mr. worrell. yes, this is elm, pacific, and commerce. this is the depository right here, and this is stemmons, and this is the way the president come down. mr. specter. so is that the assassination scene itself? mr. worrell. yes, sir. mr. specter. now take a look at that picture and tell us where you were standing--and i will give you a pencil so you can mark it on that picture itself--at the time the presidential motorcade came by. mark it with an "x," if you would, just exactly where you were standing, as best as you can recollect it, at this moment, at the time the president went by. mr. worrell. right underneath that window right there. mr. specter. now, how close were you standing to this building which i will ask you to identify; first of all, what building is that? mr. worrell. that is the texas depository. mr. specter. all right. now how close to that building were you standing? mr. worrell. i was, i don't know, or feet out from it. mr. specter. were you standing with your face to the building, with your back to the building, or how? mr. worrell. my back was to the building. mr. specter. i show you a photograph which has been identified as commission exhibit and i will ask you if you can identify what that building is? mr. worrell. that is the depository. mr. specter. all right. now on this picture will you again, with an "x," mark where you were standing as closely as you can recollect it. mr. worrell. that car is in the way. mr. specter. all right. put the mark then right above where the car is, indicating where you were standing on the sidewalk near that building. (witness marking.) mr. specter. now, did you observe the president's motorcade come by? mr. worrell. oh, yes. mr. specter. describe to us what you saw, heard, and observed at that time, as the motorcade came by. mr. worrell. well, i saw him--i was standing looking--i don't know my directions very well; anyway, i was looking down towards elm street watching him come, and they filed by me---- mr. specter. on which street were you watching them come? mr. worrell. this way. mr. specter. look at exhibit and pick out which street they were on? mr. worrell. they were coming down this way, so on and so forth. mr. specter. well, now, were they coming down elm street or were they coming down main street with a right-hand turn on to houston street with a curve on houston down elm, recollect it if you can? mr. worrell. that is right. they did turn around. mr. specter. did they come down---- mr. worrell. i didn't see him up there. mr. specter. where was the president's motorcade at the time you first saw it? mr. worrell. oh, about right in here. mr. specter. proceeding in this direction, indicating in a generally northerly direction on houston street, right? mr. worrell. yes, north. mr. specter. then tell us what the president's motorcade did? mr. worrell. it turned and went down this way. mr. specter. made a left-hand or right-hand turn? mr. worrell. left-hand turn. mr. specter. did it pass right by in front of where you were standing? mr. worrell. within a hundred feet, i guess. mr. specter. were you able to get a pretty good view of the president's motorcade? mr. worrell. yes, sir. mr. specter. all right; go ahead and tell us. mr. worrell. didn't get too good a view of the president either, i missed out on there too. but as they went by, they got, oh at least another , feet on past me, and then i heard the shots. mr. specter. how many shots did you hear? mr. worrell. four. mr. specter. did you observe anything at about that time? mr. worrell. yes, sir, i looked up and saw the rifle, but i would say about inches of it. mr. specter. and where did you see the rifle? mr. worrell. i am not going--i am not too sure but i told the fbi it was either in the fifth or the sixth floor on the far corner, on the east side. mr. specter. now looking at the picture which we have identified as commission exhibit no. , which is where you have drawn an "x," can you indicate the line of vision which you followed to the point where the rifle was to the best of your ability to recollect? mr. worrell. well, when i heard the first shot it was too loud to be a firecracker, i knew that, because there was quite a big boom, and i don't know, just out of nowhere, i looked up like that, just straight up. mr. specter. indicating you looked straight back over your head, raising your head to look over your body at the degree angle? mr. worrell. yes; and i saw it for the second time and i looked back to the motorcade. mr. specter. what did you observe at that time? mr. worrell. i saw about inches of the gun, the rifle. it had--well it had a regular long barrel but it had a long stock and you could only see maybe inches of the barrel, and i could see---- mr. specter. were you able to observe any of the stock? mr. worrell. oh, yes. mr. specter. how much of the stock were you able to observe? mr. worrell. just very little, just about inches. mr. specter. how many inches of the barrel then could you observe protruding beyond the stock? mr. worrell. about inches, i would say, not very much. mr. specter. now, at the time of the second shot were you able to observe anything at that precise instant? mr. worrell. you mean as to firing it. mr. specter. as to anything at all. what did you see when the second shot went off? mr. worrell. well, i looked to see where he was aiming and after the second shot and i have seen the president slumping down in the seat, and---- mr. specter. did you see the president slump in his seat after the second shot? mr. worrell. uh, huh. and about that---- mr. specter. did you look up and see the rifle between the first and the second shots? mr. worrell. yes, sir. and saw the firing on the second and then before he could get a shot i was--i took in everything but especially the car, the president's car, and saw him slumping, and i looked up again and turned around and started running and saw it fire a third time, and then---- mr. specter. when did you see it fire a third time, when you looked up, the time you just described? mr. worrell. when i was, i did it all in one motion, i looked up, turned around and ran, pivoted. mr. specter. what did you hear, if anything, after that? mr. worrell. just a lot of commotion, everybody was screaming and saying "duck." mr. specter. after the third shot, did you hear a fourth shot? mr. worrell. oh, yes. just as i got to the corner of exhibit , i heard the fourth shot. mr. specter. well, did these four shots come close together or how would you describe the timing in general on those? mr. worrell. succession. mr. specter. were they very fast? mr. worrell. they were right in succession. mr. specter. now going back to the position of the rifle which you testified that you saw, you say it was either on the fifth or sixth floor? mr. worrell. yes, sir. mr. specter. is there any way you can tell us which floor it was on, or would the angle of your observation permit you to be sure it was the fifth or sixth floors? mr. worrell. i am not going to say i am positive, but that one there. mr. specter. all right, would you mark that one---- mr. worrell. because that right there, i feel, would have obstructed my vision but i said it was either on the fifth or sixth floor. mr. specter. well, now, will you mark with a "y" the window which you have just pointed to? (at this point chief justice warren departed the hearing room.) mr. worrell. a "y?" mr. specter. a "y." (witness marking.) mr. specter. you have marked the "y" over two windows. was it the window--which window was it there as best you can recollect, as between those two? mr. worrell. i didn't mean to bring it down that far but this one. mr. specter. would you put an arrow then at the window that you have just indicated, was the one where the rifle was protruding from? (witness marking.) mr. specter. so, the sum of it is you are not sure whether it was the fifth or the sixth floor, but you believe it was on the floor where you have marked a "y" which is the sixth floor and that was the line of vision as you looked straight up over your head? mr. worrell. yes, sir. mr. specter. where did you run, which is what you have just described that you did next? mr. worrell. well, a better view of it is here in . i ran down houston street alongside the building and then crossed over the street, i ran alongside the building and crossed over, and in , i was standing over here, and i saw this man come bustling out of this door. mr. specter. before you get to that, mr. worrell, let me show you a diagram which has been prepared here, which may be of some assistance to you in telling us your movements in running. i will mark this as commission exhibit and ask mr. david belin, staff counsel, to make a statement as to the preparation of this exhibit for the record. mr. belin. the record will show that exhibit was prepared in the exhibit section of the federal bureau of investigation by inspector leo. j. gauthier and eugene paul airy, exhibit specialist, with the assistance of charles d. musser, illustrator, with particular reference to showing the texas school book depository building, and the immediate area with relation to the parking lot that employees used. mr. specter. mr. worrell, take a good look at this. study it for just a moment in order to get your bearings on this particular map. this is the texas school book depository building designated as such. this is houston street and this is the direction i am indicating that the motorcade, as you have described from the other exhibit, came from, a generally northerly direction. this is generally north, and it made the left-hand turn which you have already described for the record, onto elm street parkway going down the front there. now perhaps the best place to start on this is with this red pencil, to put a small "x" where you were standing on this map. mr. worrell. where i was standing? mr. specter. where you were standing. (witness marking.) mr. specter. now will you describe your movement in running as you had started to a few moments ago, indicating with a line of the red pencil just exactly where you went and describe it as you go along. mr. worrell. well, as i said on the third shot i was looking up and pivoting and turning to run at the same time. when i got here i heard the fourth shot. mr. specter. indicating that you were at that point right at the corner of the building on houston? mr. worrell. making a turn. mr. specter. having moved slightly to your left, and beginning to make a turn to go in a generally northerly direction on houston street? mr. worrell. i thought that was north. mr. specter. no, this is north, there is a symbol showing which is north. mr. worrell. okay. then i turned the corner, went right down beside the building on the sidewalk and when i got to the corner---- mr. specter. corner of what? mr. worrell. of this building. mr. specter. of the texas school book depository building? mr. worrell. yes. mr. specter. and what did you do there? mr. worrell. cut directly across, kind of at an angle. mr. specter. across houston street as you have drawn the red line there? mr. worrell. yes, and i rested there, i was out of breath, i smoke too much, short winded. mr. specter. will you mark that "y" where you stopped and rested and tell us how long you stopped there? (witness marking.) mr. worrell. how long? mr. specter. yes, sir. mr. worrell. i was there approximately minutes before i saw this man come out the back door here. mr. specter. all right. now will you put a "z" where you first saw the man whom you have just described or mentioned? mr. worrell. it is here i am pretty sure, i am not positive. (witness marking.) mr. specter. you are pretty sure--but you can't be positive--but you are pretty sure? mr. worrell. yes. mr. specter. okay. now, describe as best you can the man whom you have testified you saw at point "z." mr. worrell. describe his appearance? mr. specter. yes. start by telling us how tall he was, to the best of your ability to recollect and estimate? mr. worrell. to the--it is going to be within inches, - to - . mr. specter. what is your best estimate as to his weight? mr. worrell. to . mr. specter. what is your best estimate as to his height? mr. worrell. - , - . mr. specter. pardon me, your best estimate as to his age. mr. worrell. well, the way he was running, i would say he was in his late twenties or middle--i mean early thirties. because he was fast moving on. mr. specter. of what race was he? mr. worrell. white. mr. specter. can you describe the characteristics of his hair? mr. worrell. black. mr. specter. did he have---- mr. worrell. well, i will say brunette. mr. specter. did he have a full head of hair, a partial head of hair, or what? mr. worrell. well, see, i didn't see his face, i just saw the back of his head and it was full in the back. i don't know what the front looked like. but it was full in the back. mr. specter. what clothes did the man have on? mr. worrell. dark, like a jacket like that. mr. specter. indicating a dark gray jacket? mr. worrell. no, no. it was a jacket like that. mr. specter. a suit jacket? mr. worrell. yes. mr. specter. or was it a sports jacket? mr. worrell. sports jacket. mr. specter. did not have on matching coat and trousers? mr. worrell. no. mr. specter. was it dark in color or light? mr. worrell. it was dark in color. i don't know whether it was blue, black, or brown, but it was dark, and he had light pants. and that is all i can say on his clothes, except his coat was open and kind of flapping back in the breeze when he was running. mr. specter. now, are there any other distinguishing characteristics that you can describe about him? mr. worrell. not a thing. mr. specter. what did he---- mr. worrell. he wasn't holding nothing when he was running. he was just running. mr. specter. what did you observe him do, if anything? mr. worrell. well, when he ran out here, he ran along the side of the depository building and then when he got---- mr. specter. make a dotted line as to where he went, or take this black pencil and make a line as to where he went. (witness marking.) mr. specter. where did you see him eventually go? mr. worrell. well, he went on further. mr. specter. is that the last you saw him? mr. worrell. yes, sir. mr. specter. and did something come between you and him so that your vision was obstructed? mr. worrell. yes, sir. mr. specter. as of the point you have just dotted out there? mr. worrell. yes, sir. mr. specter. what obstructed your view of him at that juncture or at that point? mr. worrell. i can't really be sure, it was a building, but the type of building, i don't know. mr. specter. during the course of your seeing him, did you ever get a view of his face? mr. worrell. oh, no, no. mr. specter. all right. what did you do next, mr. worrell? mr. worrell. well, i went on down this way and headed up back to elm street. mr. specter. indicating you went on down to pacific? mr. worrell. yes. mr. specter. and then proceeded---- mr. worrell. no, no; that is wrong. i went on pacific and---- mr. specter. just a minute. you proceeded from point "y" on in a generally northerly direction to pacific and then in what direction did you go on pacific, this would be in an easterly direction? mr. worrell. i went east. mr. specter. you went in an easterly direction how many blocks down pacific? mr. worrell. i went down to market and from market i went on ross. mr. specter. you went left on market down to ross, and then? mr. worrell. from ross i went all the way to ervay. mr. specter. where were you heading for at that time? mr. worrell. for the bus stop near my mother's office. and i rode the bus from there out to the school and hitchhiked the rest of the way to farmers branch. mr. specter. all right. when did you first report to any official what you had seen and heard on this occasion? mr. worrell. well, i turned the tv on early next morning to see what had happened, and chief curry was making a plea---- senator cooper. is that going to become a part of the evidence at this point? mr. worrell. chief curry was making a plea for anyone who had seen the shooting, would they please come down and make a statement. so i called the farmer branch police, and told them, and they come and picked me up, and they called the dallas police, and they come way out there and picked me up and took me downtown to make a statement and brought me back home. mr. specter. mr. worrell, before we leave this exhibit , are you able to testify as to the accuracy of the scale drawing here which represents the part of it that you have testified about, specifically the presence of the texas school book depository building on the northwest corner of elm and houston. is that the accurate location of that building? mr. worrell. yes, sir. mr. specter. and is it an accurate reproduction of the intersection of elm and houston leading into the parkway on elm street? mr. worrell. as far as this? mr. specter. yes. mr. worrell. yes. mr. specter. as far as all the parts you have testified about elm and houston. is it accurate that pacific is one block in the northerly direction away from elm street? mr. worrell. yes, sir. mr. specter. and ross is another block, generally, in a northerly direction away from pacific? mr. worrell. no, ross is over here. this is record street. mr. specter. well, first there is elm, then there is pacific, and then there is ross. is that much accurate as the map shows it to be, is that the way the streets are laid out? mr. worrell. i think so. mr. specter. how about the general width of houston street in relation to the general width of the texas school depository building, is that about right? mr. worrell. i don't know, sir. mr. specter. all right, that is fine. at the same time that we have marked exhibit , mr. chairman, i would like to use the next number in sequence, no. to mark the other half of this same exhibit which is designated texas school book depository floor plan of the first floor, which we will not use at this time, but i would like to mark it in sequence. and at this time i ask that commission exhibits nos. , , , and be admitted into evidence. senator cooper. so ordered. let those exhibits be admitted as part of the evidence. (the documents referred to, heretofore marked commission exhibits nos. , , , and were admitted into evidence.) mr. specter. mr. worrell, you had told us that you heard a plea by chief of police curry for all witnesses to come forward. mr. worrell. yes, sir. mr. specter. and you heard that plea on the d of november? mr. worrell. it was on saturday. mr. specter. what action, if any, did you take in response to that request? mr. worrell. i called on the phone to the farmers branch police. mr. specter. you called who? mr. worrell. the farmers branch police. mr. specter. i see. and what did you do then? mr. worrell. well, i told them what i had seen and they said, "well, stay there and we will come and get you." mr. specter. did they come and get you? mr. worrell. oh, yes, sir. mr. specter. did you then tell the police what you had seen and heard? mr. worrell. i told a lt. butler what i had seen, and i don't know if--they placed the call into the dallas police and something like an hour later they came to pick me up there. mr. specter. did you make a statement or take an affidavit on what you had seen and heard? mr. worrell. to the dallas police? mr. specter. yes. mr. worrell. oh, yes, sir. i made a statement and signed five of them. mr. specter. i will show you a paper which is marked commission exhibit which purports to be an affidavit bearing your signature. mr. worrell. yes, sir. mr. specter. let me ask you first of all if that is your signature? mr. worrell. yes, sir. mr. specter. and would you take just a minute, take your time and read that affidavit over, please. have you had a chance to read that over, mr. worrell? mr. worrell. yes, sir. mr. specter. did you tell us that you signed five different statements or five copies of the same statement? mr. worrell. five copies of the same statement. mr. specter. is this the statement which you signed in affidavit form at that time? mr. worrell. yes, sir. mr. specter. and---- mr. worrell. yes, sir. mr. specter. as you have just--have you had time to read it over just now? mr. worrell. oh, yes. mr. specter. is that statement accurate based on your current recollection of the event? mr. worrell. it is accurate down to, well, i changed my height to - from - . mr. specter. aside from that minor variation, is it accurate in its entirety; that is, is it all accurate? mr. worrell. well, i left out, when i was making my affidavit, i left out, while i was running i heard a gun fire two more times. well, as i told you, i was turning the corner when i heard it and saw it fire the third time, and then the fourth. mr. specter. now, are there any other additions or modifications that you would like to make from the contents of your statement in accordance with your recollection at this moment? mr. worrell. i can't verify that--the time they got here because i am not too sure of that. mr. specter. you are not sure of that now? mr. worrell. no. mr. specter. all right. are there any other modifications that you would want to make in the contents of the statement? mr. worrell. leave out firecracker. it sounded, it was too loud for a firecracker. mr. specter. your current recollection is that it was too loud for a firecracker? mr. worrell. yes. mr. specter. is there any other respect in which your current recollection differs from this affidavit? mr. worrell. instead of looking i ran, i looked up. mr. specter. is there any other respect in which your current recollection differs from the affidavit? mr. worrell. well, i left out on the barrel of the rifle, i left out part of the stock. i didn't recollect that at that time. mr. specter. is there any other aspect in which your current recollection differs from the facts set forth in this affidavit? mr. worrell. well, everything else is o.k. mr. specter. what is your best estimate as to the length of time between the first shot and the last shot which you heard? mr. worrell. the best estimate , seconds. mr. specter. have you talked to, been interviewed by or given a statement to any federal agent? mr. worrell. the fbi down at dallas. mr. specter. how many times have you seen the fbi agents? mr. worrell. once. mr. specter. do you recollect the names of the agents you saw? mr. worrell. no, sir. mr. specter. do you recollect when it was that you saw those agents? mr. worrell. it was on that saturday, the d. mr. specter. and where were you when you saw them? mr. worrell. in the dallas police station. mr. specter. how long did that interview last? mr. worrell. thirty minutes. mr. specter. did you sign a statement for them? mr. worrell. i just signed it for the dallas police. they didn't have me sign anything. mr. specter. have you been interviewed by any other federal agent or representative? mr. worrell. well, mr. sorrels interviewed me when he called me and asked me some questions when he called me up wednesday night, i guess it was. mr. specter. was that in relationship to your coming here to this commission hearing? mr. worrell. yes. mr. specter. what sort of questions did mr. sorrels ask you? mr. worrell. what i saw. and i told him. mr. specter. was that just on the telephone? mr. worrell. yes. mr. specter. how long did that conversation last? mr. worrell. not very long. he talked to my mother first. he talked to her for minutes, something like this. mr. specter. was he talking to her about what you saw or about travel arrangements to get you here? mr. worrell. i don't know. i was watching television, i didn't know even who she was talking to. mr. specter. all right. aside from that conversation with mr. sorrels and the interview you have had with the fbi, have you ever talked with any agent or representative of the federal government. mr. worrell. no, sir. mr. specter. have you talked to any police official of dallas or the state of texas after you gave this affidavit? mr. worrell. no, sir. mr. specter. based on seeing only the back of this man, were you ever able to make any identification of him? mr. worrell. no, sir. mr. specter. mr. chairman, i move for the admission into evidence of the other exhibit which we have used with mr. worrell being commission exhibit no. . senator cooper. the exhibit will be admitted to evidence. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification and received in evidence.) mr. specter. that concludes our questions. senator cooper. you stated that, i believe, you looked up after you had heard the first report? mr. worrell. yes, sir. senator cooper. you looked up and saw the barrel of a rifle, and then the rifle fired. what made you know that it fired? mr. worrell. pardon? senator cooper. how did you know it was fired when you were looking at it? mr. worrell. well, i saw what you might call a little flame and smoke. senator cooper. you saw something that came out of the barrel? mr. worrell. yes, sir. senator cooper. were you looking at it when you heard the third report? mr. worrell. yes, sir, looking at it, turning around and started to run. senator cooper. did you see anything then? mr. worrell. same thing, a little flash of fire and then smoke. i didn't see it on the fourth one. senator cooper. did you only look at the car in which the president was riding one time when you said you saw him slump? mr. worrell. yes, sir. senator cooper. did you look back at the president's car then? mr. worrell. no, sir. i didn't do that because i mean i didn't know if there was one or more guns, because i wondered why if it was in such rapid succession being a bolt action, i found out later, and i didn't know what was coming off, so i was running to the back of the building because i figured that would be the safest place. senator cooper. did you see anyone in the windows, in the texas depository building? mr. worrell. no, sir. senator cooper. did you notice where this man you have described later as running away from the building, did you see him come out of the building? mr. worrell. yes, sir. senator cooper. where? mr. worrell. at the back entrance. approximately where i put the mark "z." senator cooper. was he running all the time you saw him? mr. worrell. yes, sir, he sure was. senator cooper. that is all. mr. wright. prior to hearing the first shot, had you looked up at the school book depository building? mr. worrell. no, sir; i sure didn't. mr. wright. that is all. mr. specter. were you able to observe the direction of the barrel which you have described? mr. worrell. pointing right down at the motorcade. mr. specter. any special part of the motorcade? mr. worrell. i mean, i couldn't really say that because it was too high up and he could have been pointing at anyone of the cars. i mean i couldn't tell from where i was standing. mr. specter. was it on the part of the motorcade which had turned down elm street or on the part of the motorcade that was still on houston or what? mr. worrell. it was the part that was turned down elm street. mr. specter. mr. worrell, we have a report of the federal bureau of investigation which contains a purported interview with you, designated as report of robert p. gemberling dated november , , which has this statement: "he"--referring to you--"stated that last night when he saw photographs of lee harvey oswald on television he felt this was the person he had seen running away from the building. he stated this person did not look back but he was certain this was a white person since he had a profile view." my question, first of all, to you: did you have a profile view of the man who ran away from the building that you described? mr. worrell. no, sir. mr. specter. the second question is, did you tell the fbi that you had a profile view? mr. worrell. no, sir, i sure didn't. mr. specter. did you tell the fbi agent who interviewed you, that you felt that this person was lee harvey oswald? mr. worrell. i don't know if i did or not. mr. specter. did you see anyone else leave the building, that is the texas school book depository building, except the man you have already described to us? mr. worrell. no, sir. mr. specter. i have no further questions, mr. chairman. senator cooper. are there any further questions? i believe we will stand in recess until o'clock. (whereupon, at : p.m., the president's commission recessed.) afternoon session testimony of amos lee euins the president's commission reconvened at : p.m. the chairman. the commission will come to order. amos, will you stand up, please, and raise your right hand? do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before this commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. euins. yes, sir. the chairman. you may be seated. how old are you? mr. euins. sixteen. the chairman. all right. mr. specter. mr. chief justice, should we start by reading the purpose? the chairman. yes. i think you received a copy of this statement. but i just want to say to you that the purpose of today's hearing is to hear the testimony of arnold louis rowland, james richard worrell, robert h. jackson, and yourself who were in the vicinity of the assassination scene on november , . the commission proposes to ask you facts concerning your knowledge of the assassination of president kennedy. you understand that? mr. euins. yes. the chairman. all right. mr. specter. would you tell us your full name for the record, please? mr. euins. amos lee euins. mr. specter. what is your exact date of birth, amos? mr. euins. january , . mr. specter. january , ? mr. euins. yes, sir. mr. specter. and are you a school boy at the present time? mr. euins. yes, sir. mr. specter. what school do you go to? mr. euins. franklin d. roosevelt. mr. specter. what grade are you in at that school? mr. euins. the ninth. mr. specter. do you live with your parents, amos? mr. euins. yes, sir. mr. specter. how is your health generally? mr. euins. i guess it is all right. mr. specter. how are your eyes? mr. euins. they are all right. mr. specter. can you see good at a distance? mr. euins. yes, i can see good at a distance, but i can't see at real close range. mr. specter. are you able to read without glasses? mr. euins. yes, sir. mr. specter. you don't use glasses for any purposes, then? mr. euins. no, sir. mr. specter. when you say you have trouble at close range, just what do you mean by that? mr. euins. you know, like i put something on real close. mr. specter. indicating about or inches from your eyes? mr. euins. yes, sir. and then they kind of get dim. but on a long scene, i can see good. mr. specter. how are your grades in school, amos? mr. euins. they are all right. mr. specter. are they better than average, or what? mr. euins. they are about average. mr. specter. all right. going back to november , , that is last year, amos, do you recall what you were doing early on that morning? mr. euins. yes, sir. when i first got up, i went to school. then about : , well, the teachers called us and told us the ones that wanted to go downtown to see the president come down to the office and get an excuse and they could go. so i went down to the office, and i got an excuse, so i went downtown. mr. specter. and what time did you leave school? mr. euins. : . mr. specter. and where did you go from your school? mr. euins. downtown. mr. specter. what part of downtown? mr. euins. right over by the county jail. mr. specter. do you know the names of those streets, amos? mr. euins. no, sir. mr. specter. if i told you they were elm and houston, would that help your memory as to what the names of those streets were? mr. euins. it was right by the freeway. mr. specter. all right. let me show you a photograph, amos, which is on a document i have marked as commission exhibit no. . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. specter. take just a minute and look at that, and see if you can recognize where that is. mr. euins. this is going across the railroad tracks, back up to here--right here at the corner is the book depository building. mr. specter. that is the book depository building, you say? mr. euins. yes, sir. mr. specter. all right. why don't you just put an "x" with this pencil on the book depository building, as you identify it there, amos--on the building itself. (witness marking.) mr. specter. now, were you somewhere in that area when the president's motorcade went by? mr. euins. i was right here. mr. specter. why don't you take this black pencil and put an "a" right where you were, amos. (witness marking.) mr. specter. now, what time did you get to the place where you have marked with an "a"? mr. euins. oh, i would say around about minutes or something like that to , because my mother brought me down there. mr. specter. she drove you down, did she? mr. euins. yes, sir. mr. specter. now, were you with anybody when you came to that spot, or did your mother leave you off there by yourself? mr. euins. she left me. she had to go on to work. mr. specter. now, about how long was it after you got there that the motorcade came by? mr. euins. oh, i would say about--i had been there about , maybe minutes. it come around the corner, come on around. mr. specter. all right. amos, i want to show you another picture here that i have marked as commission exhibit no. . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. specter. i ask you if you can recognize what that building is. mr. euins. this here is the book depository building. mr. specter. all right. now, look back over here at . can you tell us which direction the president's motorcade came from on this picture? mr. euins. it come from right in here. mr. specter. first of all, do you know what the name of this street is? would that be main street, in dallas? mr. euins. yes, sir; i think so. mr. specter. coming down main street, indicating in a general westerly direction. turning which way? mr. euins. this way. mr. specter. turned right. do you know if that is houston street? mr. euins. no, sir; i don't. mr. specter. let the record show the witness is identifying a street heretofore identified as houston. then which way did the motorcade go after proceeding in a general northerly direction on houston? mr. euins. it come this way, turn. mr. specter. which way--right or left? mr. euins. it turned to the left, coming down, going on. mr. specter. do you know the name of the street it turned onto when it made the left turn? mr. euins. i was just trying to keep an eye on the president. mr. specter. the witness has identified a street heretofore identified as elm street. tell us what you saw as the motorcade went by. mr. euins. i was standing here on the corner. and then the president come around the corner right here. and i was standing here. and i was waving, because there wasn't hardly no one on the corner right there but me. i was waving. he looked that way and he waved back at me. and then i had seen a pipe, you know, up there in the window, i thought it was a pipe, some kind of pipe. mr. specter. when had you first seen that thing you just described as a pipe? mr. euins. right as he turned the corner here. mr. specter. now, exactly where did you see that thing you have described as a pipe come from. and take a good look now before you tell us where it was. mr. euins. right here. mr. specter. now, will you mark an "x" on exhibit no. where you saw the pipe? mark the exact window, if you can, amos. (witness marking.) mr. specter. all right. proceed to tell us what happened, amos. mr. euins. then i was standing here, and as the motorcade turned the corner, i was facing, looking dead at the building. and so i seen this pipe thing sticking out the window. i wasn't paying too much attention to it. then when the first shot was fired, i started looking around, thinking it was a backfire. everybody else started looking around. then i looked up at the window, and he shot again. so--you know this fountain bench here, right around here. well, anyway, there is a little fountain right here. i got behind this little fountain, and then he shot again. so after he shot again, he just started looking down this, you know. mr. specter. who started looking down that way? mr. euins. the man in the window. i could see his hand, and i could see his other hand on the trigger, and one hand was on the barrel thing. mr. specter. all right. now, at the time the second shot was fired, where were you looking then? mr. euins. i was still looking at the building, you know, behind this--i was looking at the building. mr. specter. looking at anything special in the building? mr. euins. yes, sir. i was looking where the barrel was sticking out. mr. specter. how many shots did you hear altogether? mr. euins. i believe there was four, to be exact. mr. specter. now, where were you looking at the time of the third shot, if you remember? mr. euins. after he shot the first two times, i was just standing back here. and then after he shot again, he pulled the gun back in the window. and then all the police ran back over here in the track vicinity. mr. specter. slow down just a little bit in what you are telling us. when the second shot occurred, were you still standing at the point where you marked with an "a" on ? mr. euins. yes, sir. but i was right behind this little---- mr. specter. were you a little bit behind of where that "a" is? mr. euins. yes, sir; right back here. mr. specter. let's mark that with a "b," where you were at the time the second shot occurred. (witness marking.) mr. specter. all right. now, when the third shot occurred, amos, let me ask you again, where were you looking then? mr. euins. i was still down here, looking up at the building. mr. specter. what did you see in the building? mr. euins. i seen a bald spot on this man's head, trying to look out the window. he had a bald spot on his head. i was looking at the bald spot. i could see his hand, you know the rifle laying across in his hand. and i could see his hand sticking out on the trigger part. and after he got through, he just pulled it back in the window. mr. specter. did you see him pull it back in the window? mr. euins. yes, sir. mr. specter. and were you still standing at point b? mr. euins. yes. mr. specter. when he pulled it back in the window? mr. euins. i was still behind here, yes. mr. specter. where were you when you heard what you described as the fourth shot? mr. euins. the first shot i was standing here. mr. specter. now you are referring to . put an "l" on where you were standing at the first shot. mr. euins. right here. (witness marking.) mr. euins. and then as i looked up there, you know, he fired another shot, you know, as i was looking. so i got behind this fountain thing right in there, at this point b. mr. specter. at point b on ? mr. euins. i got behind there. and then i watched, he did fire again. then he started looking down towards my way, and then he fired again. mr. specter. the question i have for you now is where were you when he fired on that fourth time. mr. euins. i was still behind point b. mr. specter. you were still at point b when he fired the fourth time? mr. euins. yes, sir. then he pulled the gun back in the window. mr. specter. did you see him pull the gun back in the window after the fourth shot? mr. euins. yes; he just come back like this. mr. specter. did you watch what he did after that? mr. euins. no, sir; because after he had pulled it back in the window, i ran this way, and went across the tracks. mr. specter. all right. you start on exhibit , and put the black mark and show us the path of where you ran on . mr. euins. i was here at "b." (at this point, representative ford entered the hearing room.) (witness marking.) mr. euins. i was coming down like this here, and there was a policeman, you know there is a little cut you can come through there. there was a policeman standing right around here. mr. specter. where was the policeman standing? mark that with point "c," amos. mr. euins. right there. (witness marking.) mr. specter. you ran past the policeman standing at point c? mr. euins. no, sir. you see, i come from point b, and ran here, and told the policeman i had seen the shot, because they were looking at the railroad tracks. so he put me on the cycle and he went to here. mr. specter. he put you on the cycle and took you where? mr. euins. up to the front of the building. mr. specter. the texas school book depository building? mr. euins. yes, sir; and then he called some more cars. they got all around the building. and then the policemen came from the tracks, and they got around the building. mr. specter. did you see the policemen come from the tracks to go around the building? mr. euins. yes, sir. mr. specter. about how many policemen were there, would you say, amos? mr. euins. there was about or something like that. they were coming from the tracks here. mr. specter. do you know what the name of that policeman was, who was in that position where you have marked c? mr. euins. no, sir. he was kind of an old policeman. i ran down and got him. and he ran up here. mr. specter. you mean---- mr. euins. the book depository building. then he called some more cars. they got all the way around the building. and then after that, well, he seen another man. another man told him he seen a man run out the back. mr. specter. do you know who that man was who said somebody ran out the back? mr. euins. no, sir. he was a construction man working back there. mr. specter. were you there when the man talked about somebody running out the back? mr. euins. yes, sir. he said the man had--he said he had kind of bald spot on his head. and he said the man come back there. mr. specter. do you know what the name of the man was who told the police that someone had run out the back? mr. euins. . no, sir. mr. specter. what did you do next, amos? mr. euins. so then they took me over to the county jail. and that is where i told them what happened. and then they was standing around the book depository building, and i stayed over there to the jailhouse about o'clock. and then they took me home. mr. specter. and did they question you about what happened and what you observed on that occasion? mr. euins. at the jailhouse? mr. specter. at the jailhouse. mr. euins. yes, sir. mr. specter. all right. amos, would you tell us everything that you can remember about what you saw about the gun itself? mr. euins. well, when i first got here on the corner, the president was coming around the bend. that is when--i was looking at the building then. mr. specter. what did you think it was when you first saw it? mr. euins. i thought it was a piece of pipe or something sticking out the window. mr. specter. did it look like it was a piece of metal to you? mr. euins. yes, sir; just a little round piece of pipe. mr. specter. about an inch in diameter, would you say? mr. euins. yes, sir. mr. specter. and how long was the piece of pipe that you saw? mr. euins. it was sticking out about that much. mr. specter. about or inches? mr. euins. yes, sir. and then after i seen it sticking out, after awhile, that is when i heard the shot, and everybody started looking around. mr. specter. at that time, amos, did you see anything besides the end of the pipe? mr. euins. no, sir. mr. specter. for example, you didn't see anything about a stock or any other part of the rifle? mr. euins. no, sir--not with the first shot. you see, the president was still right along down in here somewhere on the first shot. mr. specter. now, when you saw it on the first occasion, did you think it was a rifle then? or did that thought enter your mind? mr. euins. no, sir; i wasn't thinking about it then. but when i was looking at it, when he shot, it sounded like a high-powered rifle, after i listened to it awhile, because i had been in the ndcc for about a year. mr. specter. what is ndcc? mr. euins. we call it a military army for the boys, at our school. mr. specter. is that rotc? mr. euins. yes, sir. mr. specter. rotc. and have you had any opportunity to fire a weapon in that rotc class? mr. euins. no, sir; not outside of just . 's. we fire them on the firing range. mr. specter. all right. now, when you looked up at the rifle later, you described seeing some of the trigger part. mr. euins. yes, sir. mr. specter. now, describe as fully as you can for us what you saw then, amos. mr. euins. well, when he stuck it out, you know--after the president had come on down the street further, you know he kind of stuck it out more, you know. mr. specter. how far was it sticking out of the window would you say then, amos? mr. euins. i would say it was about something like that. mr. specter. indicating about feet? mr. euins. you know--the trigger housing and stock and receiver group out the window. mr. specter. i can't understand you, amos. mr. euins. it was enough to get the stock and receiving house and the trigger housing to stick out the window. mr. specter. the stock and receiving house? mr. euins. yes. mr. specter. now, what direction was the rifle pointing? mr. euins. down--what did you say--elm? mr. specter. elm street? mr. euins. yes, sir; down elm. mr. specter. was it pointing in the direction of the president? mr. euins. yes, sir. mr. specter. now, could you see anything else on the gun? mr. euins. no, sir; i could not. mr. specter. for example, could you see whether or not there was a telescopic lens on the gun? mr. euins. no, sir. mr. specter. now, is there anything else about the gun that you can describe to us that you have not already told us about? mr. euins. no, sir. mr. specter. now, what kind of a look, if any, did you have at the man who was there? mr. euins. all i got to see was the man with a spot in his head, because he had his head something like this. mr. specter. indicating his face down, looking down the rifle? mr. euins. yes, sir; and i could see the spot on his head. mr. specter. how would you describe that man for us? mr. euins. i wouldn't know how to describe him, because all i could see was the spot and his hand. mr. specter. was he slender or was he fat? mr. euins. i didn't get to see him. mr. specter. could you tell from where you looked whether he was tall or short? mr. euins. no. mr. specter. of what race was he, amos? mr. euins. i couldn't tell, because these boxes were throwing a reflection, shaded. mr. specter. could you tell whether he was a negro gentleman or a white man? mr. euins. no, sir. mr. specter. couldn't even tell that? but you have described that he had a bald---- mr. euins. spot in his head. yes, sir; i could see the bald spot in his head. mr. specter. now, could you tell what color hair he had? mr. euins. no, sir. mr. specter. could you tell whether his hair was dark or light? mr. euins. no, sir. mr. specter. how far back did the bald spot on his head go? mr. euins. i would say about right along in here. mr. specter. indicating about - / inches above where your hairline is. is that about what you are saying? mr. euins. yes, sir; right along in here. mr. specter. now, did you get a very good look at that man, amos? mr. euins. no, sir; i did not. mr. specter. were you able to tell anything about the clothes he was wearing? mr. euins. no, sir. mr. specter. now, when you were at the sheriff's department in the police station that you have described, did they ask you to sign an affidavit or statement for them, amos? mr. euins. yes, sir. mr. specter. i now show you a paper, amos, which i have marked as commission exhibit no. . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. specter. this is supposed to be a statement which is signed. let me first point out to you that it is a copy of it. i ask you if this is a copy of your signature? mr. euins. yes, sir. mr. specter. all right. now, will you take your time, amos, and read that over, and then i want to ask you a couple of questions about it. did you have a chance to read it over? mr. euins. yes, sir. mr. specter. all right. let me ask you about a couple of specific things here, amos. in the statement you say here that he was a white man. by reading the statement, does that refresh your memory as to whether he was a white man or not? mr. euins. no, sir; i told the man that i could see a white spot on his head, but i didn't actually say it was a white man. i said i couldn't tell. but i saw a white spot in his head. mr. specter. your best recollection at this moment is you still don't know whether he was a white man or a negro? all you can say is that you saw a white spot on his head? mr. euins. yes, sir. mr. specter. then, did you tell the people at the police station that he was a white man, or did they make a mistake when they wrote that down here? mr. euins. they must have made a mistake, because i told them i could see a white spot on his head. mr. specter. now, is there anything else in this statement, amos, which is different from the way you remember this event, as you are sitting here right now? amos, did you understand the last question? mr. euins. yes, sir. mr. specter. did you answer it for us? mr. euins. no, sir; i don't think there is. mr. specter. i don't understand you, amos. the question i am trying to get at it, as you read that statement over now, you have testified or told us here today what you remember about this assassination? mr. euins. yes, sir. mr. specter. and i am asking you, when you read that statement over, is there anything on that statement which you think is wrong, based on what you remember right now? for example, you told us that they were wrong when they wrote down that you identified him as a white man. were they wrong about anything else that they wrote down? mr. euins. not that i can see. mr. specter. all right. when you looked up and saw this man, amos, did he have on a hat? mr. euins. no, sir. mr. specter. did you notice any boxes behind him at that time, amos? mr. euins. yes, sir; there were some boxes, you know, all the side of the window. like this window--there were some boxes in these windows up here. mr. specter. you saw some boxes in these windows? mr. euins. in these windows, and these windows, and there was boxes in half of this one. mr. specter. all right. now, mark the windows where you saw those boxes, amos. start off with--mark the window "y" where you saw boxes. (witness marking.) mr. specter. you made a figure , as i read it, on the two places you saw boxes in the windows. mr. euins. yes, sir; in this half. mr. specter. now, were there boxes in the window marked "x"? mr. euins. yes, sir. there were about two or three of them right along here. mr. specter. indicating the middle dividing line there? mr. euins. yes, sir. mr. specter. was that window marked "x" opened, amos, or closed? mr. euins. it was open. mr. specter. how far open was it? mr. euins. about that high. mr. specter. indicating about inches? mr. euins. yes, sir. mr. specter. and was the window in the other double window immediately next to the window marked "x" open or closed? mr. euins. the top window, on the sixth floor? mr. specter. i am referring to the window right next to it. mr. euins. no, sir; it was not open. mr. specter. amos, when you heard the first shot, did you have any reaction or impression as to where the noise was coming from at that exact time? mr. euins. no, sir; not at the exact time. you know, because everybody else started looking around. so i just started looking around, thinking it was a backfire, just like everyone else. mr. specter. did you look up towards that window before the second shot, or just when the second shot occurred? mr. euins. i think--just a little before, because as soon as i did, i looked at it--pow. mr. specter. you heard a pow? mr. euins. yes, sir. mr. specter. now, as you were watching and heard, did you have the impression that the noise you heard was coming from that rifle? mr. euins. no, sir; i didn't, because i wasn't thinking of the rifle at first--you know, because it looked like a pipe at first. mr. specter. when you say the second--when you heard the second shot, when you say you were looking at the rifle, did you have the feeling that the noise came from the rifle when you heard the second shot, when you were looking at it? mr. euins. no, sir; i did not. mr. specter. well, did you have any impression at all about where the noise was coming from? mr. euins. no, sir; not on the first shot. mr. specter. how about the second shot? mr. euins. yes, sir. mr. specter. where did you think the noise was coming from on the second shot? mr. euins. i seen him shoot on the second shot. mr. specter. so you thought the noise was coming from the rifle on the second shot? mr. euins. yes, sir. the chairman. did you say you thought, or saw? mr. euins. i saw him shoot the second shot. mr. specter. how high were those boxes behind him, amos? mr. euins. they was probably about feet high stacked in the back of him. mr. specter. amos, were you questioned later by the fbi? mr. euins. yes, sir; over in the office. mr. specter. how many times were you questioned by the fbi? mr. euins. oh, once. mr. specter. do you remember when that was? mr. euins. it was around about or o'clock. mr. specter. do you remember how many days after the assassination it was? mr. euins. about . mr. specter. you think they might have talked to you more than once? mr. euins. no, sir. mr. specter. mr. chief justice, i move for the admission into evidence of the statement marked commission exhibit . the chairman. that may be admitted. (the document heretofore marked for identification as commission exhibit no. was received in evidence.) mr. specter. that concludes the questioning i have, sir. the chairman. mr. wright? mr. wright. nothing further, mr. chief justice. mr. specter. mr. chief justice, i would like to move for the admission into evidence of all the exhibits here-- , , as well as . the chairman. very well. (the documents heretofore marked for identification as commission exhibits nos. and , were received in evidence.) the chairman. amos, you may be excused, then. thank you very much for coming and helping us out with your testimony. we will recess until tomorrow morning at o'clock. _wednesday, march , _ testimony of buell wesley frazier, linnie mae randle, and cortlandt cunningham the president's commission met at : a.m. on march , , at maryland avenue ne., washington, d.c. present were chief justice earl warren, chairman; senator john sherman cooper and representative gerald r. ford, members. also present were j. lee rankin, general counsel; joseph a. ball, assistant counsel; david w. belin, assistant counsel; albert e. jenner, jr., assistant counsel; wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel; norman redlich, assistant counsel; charles murray and lewis e. powell, jr., observers. testimony of buell wesley frazier the chairman. the commission will be in order. mr. ball. i would like to assign commission exhibit no. to a paper sack which the fbi has identified as their c- exhibit. that will be the commission's exhibit no. for identification at this time. the chairman. all right. (the paper sack referred to was marked commission's exhibit no. for identification.) mr. ball. also for the record i would like to announce that prior to--this morning, mr. cortlandt cunningham and charles killion of the federal bureau of investigation laboratory, the ballistics division, firearms division, i guess it is, broke down, that is unscrewed commission exhibit no. , an italian rifle, and that rifle has been placed in, after being disassembled, has been placed in commission's no. for identification, that paper sack. the chairman. all right. mr. ball. we have also here before the commission, commission no. which is a paper sack which is identified as the fbi's exhibit no. . i think that has its number, exhibit number on it. i have been informed that was . my notes show that the brown paper sack is . i think we can call the witness now. the chairman. all right; would you call mr. frazier, please. raise your right hand to be sworn, please. do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before this commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. frazier. i do. the chairman. will you be seated, please? mr. frazier. yes, sir. the chairman. mr. joseph ball of our staff will examine you, mr. frazier, but i would like to read a very short statement concerning the purpose of the meeting. the purpose of today's hearing is to hear the testimony of buell wesley frazier, and linnie mae randle. the commission has been advised that these two witnesses have stated that they saw lee harvey oswald on the morning of november , . the commission proposes to ask these witnesses questions concerning their knowledge of the assassination of president kennedy. you have a copy of this, have you not? mr. frazier. yes, sir. the chairman. all right, you may proceed, mr. ball. mr. ball. you call yourself buell or wesley? mr. frazier. i go by wesley. mr. ball. well, wesley, what is your age? mr. frazier. sir? mr. ball. what is your age? mr. frazier. nineteen. mr. ball. where do you live? mr. frazier. for the time being i am living in irving now. mr. ball. irving, tex.? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. ball. what is the address where you live? mr. frazier. west fifth street. mr. ball. did you live there in november ? mr. frazier. yes, sir; i did. mr. ball. and who lives in that house with you? mr. frazier. my sister and brother-in-law and their three children. mr. ball. will you state their names, your sister's name? mr. frazier. linnie mae randle and my brother-in-law. i believe his real name is william edward randle. we call him bill. they have three little girls, diana, patricia and caroline sue. mr. ball. where does your mother live? mr. frazier. she lives in huntsville. mr. ball. where is that? mr. frazier. that is about miles south of dallas there. mr. ball. what is the name of the town? mr. frazier. town, you mean where my mother lives? huntsville. mr. ball. huntsville? mr. frazier. yes, sir; that is about, it is about , miles north of houston. mr. ball. what is your mother's name? mr. frazier. essie mae williams. mr. ball. was she visiting you and your sister sometime in november ? mr. frazier. yes, sir; she was. mr. ball. how long was she there? mr. frazier. she was there for, i believe, for a period of about or weeks because my stepfather was with her and he got sick and they had to put him in the hospital and he was in the hospital or weeks, somewheres, or weeks because they were there a week before he got sick. mr. ball. then on november and , living with you in this residence at irving, tex., were your mother, mrs. williams, and your sister, linnie mae randle? mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. and her husband and their three children? mr. frazier. that is right. mr. ball. where do you work? mr. frazier. work at texas school books. mr. ball. how long have you worked there? mr. frazier. i have been working there since september. mr. ball. september of ? mr. frazier. correct. mr. ball. what kind of work do you do there? mr. frazier. i fill orders. mr. ball. how did you happen to get that job? mr. frazier. well, i went to see, first i come up there and started looking for a job and couldn't find one myself so i went to one of these employment agencies and through that a lady called up one morning, i was fixing to go out and look for one, i was looking for myself in the meantime when they were, too, and so she called up and gave me a tip to it if i was interested in a job like that i could go over there and see about that and for the time being i wasn't working and needed some money and so i did and i went over there and saw mr. truly, and he gave me an interview, and then he hired me the same day i went over there. mr. ball. you say you came up, you mean you came up from huntsville? mr. frazier. that is right; yes, sir. mr. ball. that was in september ? mr. frazier. yes, sir; it was. mr. ball. looking for a job around dallas? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. ball. did you go to live with your sister at that time? mr. frazier. yes, sir; i did. mr. ball. what--where is the employment agency and what is its name when you first applied for a job? mr. frazier. well, i went to several but, see, this one got me this job the main one was massey, the employment agency, and it is over there on shady grove road. mr. ball. in dallas? mr. frazier. no, sir; in irving. mr. ball. how do you spell that name, the name of the employment agency? mr. frazier. massey? mr. ball. yes. mr. frazier. i believe it is m-a-s-s-e-y. mr. ball. and it was a woman at the employment agency that called you and told you to go to see the texas school book depository? mr. frazier. yes, right. mr. ball. and you went to see mr. truly and after an interview he gave you a job? mr. frazier. correct. mr. ball. then you started work there about what date in september? mr. frazier. it was the th. i say that was the same day i went for an interview. i went early enough that morning that he told me to come back after lunch. mr. ball. and you are still working there? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. ball. when mr. truly hired you did he tell you it would be a full-time job or just a temporary job? mr. frazier. no, sir; he told me that he was looking for somebody full time and i told him, well, that is what i wanted, and so he said that would be just fine. mr. ball. how much did he start to pay you? mr. frazier. he started me off with a dollar and a quarter an hour. mr. ball. that is for an eight-hour day? mr. frazier. right. five days a week. mr. ball. did you commute back and forth from your sister's home in irving? mr. frazier. over there to the texas school books? mr. ball. to the texas school book depository. mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. ball. from the first day? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. ball. and you still do? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. ball. do you own a car? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. ball. your own car? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. ball. you had it, did you, when you started to work? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. ball. still have it? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. ball. and you have been since september driving that car from your sister's home in irving over to the texas school book depository? mr. frazier. correct. mr. ball. go there in the morning? mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. what time do you get to work? mr. frazier. i get there around o'clock. mr. ball. when do you quit? mr. frazier. i quit at : . mr. ball. then you drive home? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. ball. how long for lunch? mr. frazier. minutes. mr. ball. do all the employees have the same lunch hour? mr. frazier. now, the ones who work down there filling book orders around where i work now, so we all work the same hours. some people work up there in the offices, i hear that they come in a little bit later. now, i don't know for sure but i see primarily the ones who does the same type of work i do, we all start the same time and work the same time. mr. ball. those are the people who fill the orders? mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. how far is it in miles from your sister's home to texas school book depository? mr. frazier. it is roughly around miles. mr. ball. and did you take the same route every day? mr. frazier. you mean since i have been going over there; since the first day? mr. ball. that is right. mr. frazier. up to now? mr. ball. yes, right. mr. frazier. no, sir; i didn't. you see, i found two ways, you can more judge by the traffic and you can go some days one way and the traffic will be easier than others, but most times i use just one route. mr. ball. what route did you usually use? mr. frazier. used one like you go down from the house there. mr. ball. yes. mr. frazier. go down and right storey road, see fifth street is just one block off storey road, and just go down and hit storey road and stay on it until you come to stemmons freeway and you stay right on stemmons until you come right on into dallas there. mr. ball. about what length of time does it take you to go from your sister's home to work in the morning? mr. frazier. usually, i usually leave not any later than : . i usually try to leave about : , and if you leave at : , you usually get around there, by the time you get down to the parking lot now it is usually pretty close to minutes to and that gives you enough time to walk to the book depository, put up your lunch and take off your coat. mr. ball. did you have a place to park your car? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. ball. was it assigned to you by mr. truly? mr. frazier. no, sir; he just said we had a parking lot there and showed me where it was and said you can park in the parking lot. mr. ball. was that the parking lot two or three blocks from the building. mr. frazier. yes, sir, it is down there; right across from the warehouse there. mr. ball. then you would walk from there from that parking lot---- mr. frazier. up to the other depository up there at the corner of houston and main. mr. ball. we have here a map which has been marked as commission's exhibit no. . mr. frazier. i see. mr. ball. and north is to the bottom of the map. mr. frazier. yes. mr. ball. instead of the top, as usually the case. mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. it has two pictures over here, one to the left and one to the right of the map. mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. let's take a look at the picture to the right of the map. do you recognize that area? mr. frazier. yes, sir; i do. mr. ball. what is it? mr. frazier. i see that is right there where you say that is the street going up to the parking lot there. mr. ball. do you recognize this car? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. ball. what car is that? mr. frazier. that is my car. mr. ball. is that where you usually park every day? mr. frazier. well, i would say at the time being when i first started to work there i first started to park there but now i park on the other side of the fence there. mr. ball. but that is a picture of the parking lot, is it? mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. where you park is in the parking lot? mr. frazier. yes, sir. i park inside the fence but what i am talking about--i park on the different side of the lot. mr. ball. different side of the same lot? mr. frazier. yes, sir; we just have one lot there. mr. ball. do you see the texas school book depository building? mr. frazier. yes, sir; right there. mr. ball. and you walked from about the place where your car is parked? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. ball. usually up to the depository building? mr. frazier. right, correct. mr. ball. now, the map to the left, upper left-hand corner of the map, there is a picture. mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. ball. do you see this area where i point my finger which is marked "parking lot no. ." mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. ball. what is that? mr. frazier. that is the same parking lot we were looking at right here. mr. ball. what route do you walk, which way do you walk when you park in this parking lot no. , to the texas school book depository building? mr. frazier. do you want me to get up to where i can show it to you? mr. ball. yes; show it to us. mr. frazier. i usually always come up, you know, you can come right, you see the building right down here, and you notice a series of railroad tracks, so usually early in the morning, now about o'clock there is usually not any cars right here, but i say they are switching back and forth. mr. ball. by "cars" you mean railroad cars? mr. frazier. yes, sir; they usually start switching around o'clock. usually, there are not any cars, it is usually a long train that moves up pretty soon but i usually move up in this direction here, especially when it is dry. when it is wet i walk on this because it is harder. but when it is raining, i usually walk around here, because in this area right here, when you get up closer to the railroad tracks it has more trenches, and it gets muddy and slimy and you can get bogged down. so, when it is bad weather, i usually walk on this side. but i say nine times out of ten i come up right down here. mr. ball. let's look at the map. here is the parking lot here, is that the parking lot where you usually park? mr. frazier. yes, sir; it is. mr. ball. this is parking lot no. . mr. frazier. that is parking lot no. , isn't it? mr. ball. right. mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. we will show you this map later, but just to illustrate, how do you usually, what is the route you usually take, just show us on the board here, the route you usually take to the texas school book depository building in the morning? mr. frazier. you mean when i am coming off of the freeway? mr. ball. after you park here. mr. frazier. you know right here, you say like the car, you notice that little house right there, i assume you have checked off. you know like i was telling you now. i usually park over in this corner. but at the time i parked right there. but anyway, there is a little cyclone fence and this was the series of railroad tracks, i was talking to you about. mr. ball. that is right. mr. frazier. i usually come down here. mr. ball. munger street? mr. frazier. that is right, and usually cross along the railroad tracks and come up here. mr. ball. houston street? mr. frazier. houston runs into it, now they are doing some work across the tracks and you can't go any further than the tracks, right along here this line, cyclone, but that type of fence and i usually walk right up, you know. mr. ball. to the buildings? mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. and enter the rear of the building? mr. frazier. yes, sir. now, we call it a loading zone out there, dock area. mr. ball. fine. did anyone else ride with you in the morning, usually did anyone else ride with you in the morning from home to work? mr. frazier. no, sir; they didn't. mr. ball. did anybody ride with you from work to home? mr. frazier. no, sir; they didn't. mr. ball. when did you first hear of lee harvey oswald, first hear the name? mr. frazier. i first heard, i never really did know his name, we just called him lee around there. but the first time i ever saw him was the first day he come to work. mr. ball. had you heard he was coming to work before he came to work? mr. frazier. i will say, you know, talking back and forth with the bossman all the time and from being around and getting along real fine and so he told me, i assume the day after he hired him that he was going to have him come in on monday and he asked me had i ever seen him and i told him then no; i had never seen him. (at this point, representative ford entered the hearing room.) mr. ball. had your sister told you that this fellow lee was coming to work? mr. frazier. yes; she did. she said one afternoon when i went home she told me she found out from one of the neighbors there he came over for that interview with mr. truly and mr. truly had hired him. mr. ball. you heard that from your sister? mr. frazier. yes. mr. ball. before you saw him? mr. frazier. right, before i saw him. mr. ball. when you first saw him was it a monday morning? mr. frazier. yes; it was. mr. ball. do you have any idea of the date itself, do you have any memory of the date when you first saw him? mr. frazier. no, sir; i don't. mr. ball. was it sometime around the middle of october, do you think, would that be close to it? mr. frazier. it could have been because it was sometime in october because i remember i went to work there on the th and i had been working there, or weeks and then he come there. mr. ball. where was he when you first saw him? mr. frazier. i first saw him he was--we have a table not as large as this, but just about half as large as this, and we have just like you walk up to it where i am sitting over here and we have four or five boxes there and we have different names on it, you know, for different publishing companies, and he was there getting some orders, and i say, as well as i remember, i said, the foreman there was getting him out some real easy orders. some of the orders we have are real easy to fill, easier than the others, you don't have to know so much about the textbooks to be able to fill them and he was getting some of them easy ones out to start on, when we have a great number of them, you see, the little pamphlet type books and all we do is count them out and read the invoice number. mr. ball. what was the name of the foreman showing him? mr. frazier. you mean the foreman, that was mr. shelly. mr. ball. s-h-e-d? mr. frazier. s-h-e-l-l-y. mr. ball. shelly. what floor was this on? mr. frazier. it was on the first floor there. mr. ball. did shelly introduce you to him or did you go up and shake hands with him? mr. frazier. no, sir; he didn't. i remember, i knew, you know that he was going to be coming to work so naturally i hadn't been there very long, you know, living in dallas and so i wanted to make friends with everybody i could, because you know yourself friendship is something you can't buy with money and you always need friends, so i went up and introduced himself to myself, and he told me his name was lee and i said "we are glad to have you." we got talking back and forth and he come to find out i knew his wife was staying down there at the time with this other woman and so i thought he would go out there and i said, "are you going to be going home this afternoon?" and he told me then, he told me that he didn't have a car, you know, and so i told him, i said, "well, i live out there in irving,"--i found out he lived out there and so i said, "any time you want to go just let me know." so i thought he would go home every day like most men do but he told me no, that he wouldn't go home every day and then he asked me could he ride home say like friday afternoon on weekends and come back on monday morning and i told him that would be just fine with me. i told him if he wanted a ride any other time just let me know before i go off and leave him because when it comes to quitting time some of these guys, you know, some of them mess around the bathroom and some of them quit early and some of them like that and some leave at different times than others. but i said from talking to him then, i say, he just wanted to ride home on weekends with me and i said that was fine. mr. ball. did he say at that time he was living in dallas, he had a room in dallas? mr. frazier. yes, sir; he did. he had an apartment. mr. ball. did he say where? mr. frazier. no, sir; he didn't. he just said he had an apartment over in dallas. mr. ball. had you known his wife before that? had you ever met his wife, marina oswald? mr. frazier. no, sir; i never had. mr. ball. had you heard that a russian girl was staying there in the neighborhood? mr. frazier. well, i say about this time i met him, you know, i knew that at the time then but i didn't think anything about it because, you know, the people travel from one country to the next all the time. mr. ball. did you know mrs. paine, ruth paine? mr. frazier. no, sir; i didn't until all this had happened because i will be frank with you, people around there, i say, they just don't make friends very easy. i say you can have somebody living three doors from you and you can live a couple of years and you still might not know the name. mr. ball. and you had never met mrs. ruth paine before the day you met lee oswald? mr. frazier. no. mr. ball. what kind of work did lee do, what kind of work was assigned to him? mr. frazier. he filled orders like i do and several other men. mr. ball. how many order fillers were there employed at that time? mr. frazier. oh, i would say roughly around five, six at that time. because about the time we was real busy, the busy season. i come there, you know, and they was going pretty good when i went to work there and i say we were still going pretty good when he come to work there. we had a lot of work to do and usually when we have a lot of work to do we have more order fillers. mr. ball. did he ride home with you in your car on weekends? mr. frazier. yes, sir; he did. mr. ball. on friday nights. mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. from that time until november , did he ride home with you every weekend? mr. frazier. no, sir; he did every weekend but one. mr. ball. do you remember that date? mr. frazier. no, sir; i don't. mr. ball. in the statement you made i believe you said it was the th and th of november. i am just reminding you of that. does it refresh your memory any? mr. frazier. i remember one weekend, i say, right now i can't recall because just to be frank with you i couldn't tell you roughly; i say i might have at that time but i say it slipped my mind but the thing is i do know he rode home with me every weekend up to that but one. mr. ball. and why did--did he tell you why he wasn't going to ride home that weekend? mr. frazier. yes, he did. he said he was working on his driving license and he was going to go take a driving test. mr. ball. did you ever ask him afterward if he had taken his driver's test? mr. frazier. no, sir; i never did. i assumed that he had taken it and passed it what part of the test he was taking. most men do, i say, they usually work at it, study at it good enough so they don't flunk out. representative ford. do you have to get a learner's permit in texas before you can get a driver's permit? mr. frazier. no, sir; i say, you don't. just two steps to it. i say, first no matter what age you are; say, when you have to be at least is about the youngest you can get it in texas and then you have to take a de, driver's education, if you are going to school but otherwise, the age is and you just go around to the driving license bureau there, they have an office in most any town of any size in texas, and you just go in and see the driving license man and just tell him that you plan to take your driving test and you would like to have the auto manual, and the manual covers any laws and so forth in the state of texas, and you can either study for your operator's or your commercial and you pick out which one you want, and you study up for it and then he is there, he tells you what days he is in his office, and so he goes there a certain time and he gives you several sheets of paper, a quiz and you answer them questions, and if you--you have to make a grade of on it to pass and if you make a grade of or above, well, i say, in another week or two you go down there and you say like for instance if you are going to want a driver's license for a car---- representative ford. did lee ever ask you or did lee ever tell you whether he had ever actually applied for a driver's license? mr. frazier. no, sir; he never had, except i told you that weekend that he said he was going down to take his driving test, and so i knew from being in the state of texas that you have to know something; you have to have the manuals and so forth to study up on it. or there isn't any use going down there if you don't know the rules because you are not wasting any time but your own. mr. ball. do you remember whether or not one weekend that he didn't go down with you but he rode back with you, say, on the armistice day holiday? do you remember? mr. frazier. no, sir; i don't. mr. ball. your memory is that he went, he rode home with you every friday and came back the following monday? mr. frazier. yes. mr. ball. except this one weekend? mr. frazier. right, that is what i say. if he went home with me on friday afternoon he always rode back with me on monday morning. it wasn't no added job when he would come with me on the weekend. he would ride home with me on friday and he would come back with me on monday. mr. ball. did he ever tell you that he had or had not applied for a driver's license? mr. frazier. no; he had not except he told me he was going down to take it. mr. ball. he never told you that he had or had not? mr. frazier. no. mr. ball. and he never told you whether he had obtained a driver's license? mr. frazier. no, sir; he didn't. mr. ball. did you ever talk to him on whether or not he could drive a car, knew how to drive a car? mr. frazier. well, i say, i believe the first afternoon, the first time we was going home and we were talking about that and he said he was working on his driving license then, and then naturally like i told you several weeks later, then he told me he was going to take his driving test and i assumed he could drive a car being as old as he was because most everybody in the state of texas by the time you are my age if you can't drive a car something is wrong with you. mr. ball. he did never say whether he could or couldn't? mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. did he ever ask you about the parts of a car? mr. frazier. no, sir; i don't believe he did. mr. ball. do you remember any conversation when he asked you what the clutch was? mr. frazier. oh, yes. we got talking about that. he noticed, you know, most cars as old as mine, you know most of them are standard shift, and when i bought this old car it kind of fooled me it had automatic transmission on it so we got talking about it on the way home driving home and i told him that i really prefer a standard because you know, they are a lot easier to work on and you know, when an automatic goes dead it goes dead, there is no rolling a couple of feet and jumping on the clutch and starting when the battery is down. and i remember he said it was a little bit different to drive with a clutch. i said, if you are not used to it, but if you get used to it. you have to find a friction point on any car, even on chevrolet or ford, you know yourself the friction points on a clutch and the brakes are different adjusted on every car you drive. and i told you there is nothing you do. you just have to get used to a car of the individual, you can drive one car to do it, and you can drive another one it may take you a couple of days to get used to it. mr. ball. he is the one who mentioned the clutch, is he, that you didn't have a clutch? mr. frazier. right. i guess he noticed that i didn't have a clutch. mr. ball. i see. did he pay for any part of the trip, buy your gasoline? mr. frazier. no, sir; he didn't. i never did ask him. because like i said i drove over there anyway and it doesn't take any more to drive one guy than it does to drive a carload. mr. ball. did he offer to pay any time? mr. frazier. no, sir; he never did. mr. ball. at any time coming back after a weekend did you ever stop at a restaurant for breakfast? mr. frazier. no, sir; we never did. mr. ball. did you ever stop on the way home on friday night and buy anything? mr. frazier. no, sir; stopped one time and bought some gas, i remember. mr. ball. did he pay for it? mr. frazier. no, sir; he didn't. mr. ball. did he offer to? mr. frazier. no, sir; he didn't. mr. ball. did you ever see him have any money in his possession, bills, change? mr. frazier. no, sir; i never did see him out playing around with any money. mr. ball. on the way back and forth did you talk very much to each other? mr. frazier. n,. sir; not very much. he is, probably in your line of business you have probably seen a lot of guys who talk a lot and some don't and he was one of these types that just didn't talk. and i have seen, you know, i am not very old but i have seen a lot of guys in my time, just going to school, different boys and girls, some talk a lot and some don't, so i didn't think anything strange about that. about the only time you could get anything out of the talking was about babies, you know, he had one and he was expecting another, that was one way he had him get that job because his wife was pregnant and i would always get something out of it when i asked him about the babies because it seemed he was very fond of children because when i asked him he chuckled and told me about what he was doing about the babies over the weekend and sometimes we would talk about the weather, and sometimes he would go to work and it would be cloudy in the morning and it would come out that afternoon after work, sometimes during the day and it would turn to be just one of the prettiest days you would want anywhere, and he would say some comment about that, but not very much. he would say a few words and then he would cut off. mr. ball. did he tell you he had been to russia, say anything about that? mr. frazier. well, i say, we were talking about one time talking about the service, and so i asked him had he ever been overseas and he said he had, and i asked him had he ever been to germany and he said he had been through there. so, most times when boys are in the service in the united states they either go to japan or, i say, they either go over there or you know, go to some of these, say, like germany or france somewhere like that. and so other than that he told me that he had been through there. mr. ball. did he say he had been to russia? mr. frazier. he said, you know, like i say, he said he had been over there and he said he had been there so i thought when he told me, yes; he had, so i thought maybe, you know, by being, i know he told me had been in service and i thought maybe that is how he got in. mr. ball. in other words, your answer is yes; he did tell you he had been in russia? mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. did he go into detail and tell you how he got there and what he did there? mr. frazier. no, he didn't. i, to be frank with you i, was more interested about france and germany and i asked him about them towns and he told me he liked france, i mean he said not that he didn't like france, he said people in france was more the kind to con the united states boys out of their money and he was in germany there or days and he said he liked germany better than france because that is one reason. because he said if you didn't really know how to count that french money them french guys would really take you. mr. ball. did he say anything about being in the marines? mr. frazier. yes; he told me he was a marine. mr. ball. that he had been to japan? mr. frazier. no, sir; he didn't say he had been to japan. mr. ball. ever talk about politics? mr. frazier. no, sir; he didn't. mr. ball. ever mention any subjects like, political parties, the democrats, republicans? mr. frazier. no, sir; he didn't. mr. ball. ever mention anything about communists, marxists or any words like that did he use? mr. frazier. no, sir. mr. ball. did he tell you where he met his wife? mr. frazier. no, sir; he didn't. mr. ball. did he ever talk much about his wife? mr. frazier. no, sir; he didn't. i say, like i said, he was just a guy who didn't talk very much at all. mr. ball. at the texas school book depository, you have lunch, -minute lunch hour, don't you? mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. did you pack your lunch from home? mr. frazier. yes, sir, i always took lunch. mr. ball. do you remember whether or not when oswald came back with you on any monday morning or any weekend did he pack his lunch? mr. frazier. yes, sir; he did. mr. ball. he did? mr. frazier. yes, sir. when he rode with me, i say he always brought lunch except that one day on november he didn't bring his lunch that day. mr. ball. but every other day he brought a lunch? mr. frazier. right, when he rode with me. mr. ball. would he bring it in a paper sack or what kind of a container? mr. frazier. yes, sir; like a little paper sack you get out of a grocery store, you have seen these little old sacks that you could buy, sandwich bag, sack. mr. ball. did you carry your lunch in a paper sack? mr. frazier. yes, sir; i did. mr. ball. there is a lunch room in the texas school book depository? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. ball. is that on the first floor? mr. frazier. no, sir; on the second floor. mr. ball. there is some kind of a recreation room on the first floor? mr. frazier. there is a little domino room there where some of the guys go in and play dominoes. mr. ball. but the lunch room is on the second floor? mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. do they sell any food there? mr. frazier. no, sir; they don't. about all they sell in the lunch room is different types of soft drinks and then near the window, the men who work in the offices there they have coffee there, you can drink coffee up there, i never did. then you have an assortment of cookies and candies and peanuts and so forth on the machine there. that is about all they have. mr. ball. do you remember whether or not oswald packed his lunch, brought his lunch on other days, the days that he didn't ride with you? mr. frazier. to be frank with you, i don't know whether he brought his lunch because i will tell you one way, some guys bring their lunch there and some guys buy it there because we have a caterer service, you see, comes around about o'clock the man comes around and several of the boys they go out there and buy their lunch from the catering service. mr. ball. then later on at : ? mr. frazier. o'clock is when we always eat lunch. mr. ball. to : ? mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. when you get off your job, did you usually go to the lunch room on the second floor to eat your lunch? mr. frazier. no, sir; most of the time i don't. most of the time you see several of us guys sitting down at our own table and we just sit there. i say we usually go up there to get something to drink and i say i have ate up there several times but most of the times i eat with the guys i work with. usually we just sit down and eat, and we lay down on the big tables there and sometimes talk or go to sleep. mr. ball. that is on the first floor? mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. did you notice where oswald had his lunch usually? mr. frazier. no, sir; i didn't. now, i say we have a refrigerator there, some of the boys put their lunches in there. mr. ball. did you ever eat lunch with oswald? mr. frazier. no, sir; i never have. mr. ball. did you ever see him eating lunch? mr. frazier. no, sir; i never have seen him eat lunch. i have seen him go to the doctor pepper machine by the refrigerator and get a doctor pepper but i never have seen him, you might say, sit right down and eat his lunch. mr. ball. in driving back and forth with oswald did you ever hear him--did he ever talk about guns? mr. frazier. no, sir; he never did. mr. ball. did he ever tell you he owned a gun? mr. frazier. no, sir. mr. ball. did oswald ever say anything to you about buying an automobile in any of these trips? mr. frazier. one time we were talking about it, he said he thought he would just buy him an old car, you know, like mine. i say most models like that you can get them pretty cheap and as far as going back and forth for work that is about all they are good for. i said, "you don't need a new car to be used for going back and forth. you don't need it unless you drive a good-sized distance." but that is what he said in the long run he planned to buy one but so far as i know he never did. mr. ball. did he say that once or more than once? mr. frazier. no, sir; just one time. mr. ball. when he said he would get an old car? mr. frazier. yes. mr. ball. did he ever tell you he had gone to an old car dealer? mr. frazier. no, sir. mr. ball. did he ever tell you he had tried out a car? mr. frazier. no, sir. so far as i--like i say, that one time, that is as far as i can ever recall that we even talked much about anything--about cars--except a while ago he asked me--we were talking about the clutch and automatic transmission and so forth. mr. ball. there is a bus service between dallas and irving? mr. frazier. yes; there is. mr. ball. can you get the bus anywhere near the texas school book depository? mr. frazier. to be frank with you i will say i have never ridden the bus from irving over there, but i assume you can get off there just like any other bus at any street corner you want to. mr. ball. do you know what the fare is? mr. frazier. no, sir; i don't. mr. ball. is there a toll charge to call from dallas to irving? mr. frazier. no, sir; it is not. mr. ball. for cents you can call there, can you? mr. frazier. well, i say just for your regular telephone bill, you just pick it up and call. mr. ball. i see. now, there was the one date that oswald came to you and asked you to drive him back to irving, it was not a friday, was it? mr. frazier. no, sir; it wasn't. mr. ball. it was on a thursday. mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. was that the st of november? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. ball. well, tell us about that. mr. frazier. well, i say, we were standing like i said at the four-headed table about half as large as this, not, quite half as large, but anyway i was standing there getting the orders in and he said, "could i ride home with you this afternoon?" and i said, "sure. you know, like i told you, you can go home with me any time you want to, like i say anytime you want to go see your wife that is all right with me." so automatically i knew it wasn't friday, i come to think it wasn't friday and i said, "why are you going home today?" and he says, "i am going home to get some curtain rods." he said, "you know, put in an apartment." he wanted to hang up some curtains and i said, "very well." and i never thought more about it and i had some invoices in my hands for some orders and i walked on off and started filling the orders. mr. ball. this was on what floor? mr. frazier. this was on the first floor. mr. ball. about what time in the morning? mr. frazier. i would say sometime between eight and ten, because i go to work at eight and i would break at ten. mr. ball. was it at the break time or before? mr. frazier. it was before the break. mr. ball. it was before noon then? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. ball. did you see him at the noon hour? mr. frazier. that day? mr. ball. that day. mr. frazier. i don't recall, to be frank with you. you know, i will just be frank with you, i say just like after a guy works there for a while and he comes by and he walks by you, you don't pay so much attention but say like somebody else comes in there strange, you automatically just look at them. mr. ball. did you talk to him again until quitting time? mr. frazier. well, to be frank with you, like i said, the only time--you know, like i say, he didn't talk very much and about the only time--other than like i told you about talking about them babies and about the weather sometimes he would ask me some questions about a book because down there, i say, if you have ever been acquainted with books a lot of times maybe just a little bit of difference in a title or something like that would make the difference in what type of book they want and sometimes maybe they will forget to put that on there and you look at the price. if you can tell the price, some editions we have a paperback and some we have hard bound and the price can automatically tell you which one they want, and sometimes he would ask me something like that which book do they want and i would tell him and that was about the only conversation we had. mr. ball. you didn't talk any more with him that day concerning the ride home? mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. but you did go home with him? mr. frazier. that is he rode home with me. mr. ball. what time did you get off from work? mr. frazier. : . mr. ball. what time did you get to irving? mr. frazier. well, usually get there, if you make good time, get there maybe around : or : . but if you catch the traffic and catch the train crossing the tracks, it is usually about : or : , it is just according to how bad the traffic is. if you get ahead of it before it starts coming out, you can make pretty good headway. mr. ball. did you make any stop in the car before you got home? mr. frazier. no, sir; i don't believe we did. mr. ball. did the two of you walk together down to the parking lot? mr. frazier. yes, sir; we did. mr. ball. and you dropped him off at the place where his wife was staying, did you? mr. frazier. yes, sir; i believe i did. i, to be frank with you i, say sometimes he rode home with me, sometimes--a little store not too far from the house, there and if i was going to the store i would just drop him off by the house, but if i wasn't going to the store he would usually go on to the corner near the house and walk the rest of the way to the house up to where his wife was staying just about a half a block from my house up to where he was, his wife was staying, so he would walk there just a little bit. mr. ball. do you remember if you talked to him any on the walk down two or three blocks down to the parking lot, anything said that you can remember? mr. frazier. no, sir; i don't believe so. mr. ball. when you got in the car and went home do you remember if you said anything, if you said anything to him, or if he said anything to you? mr. frazier. no, sir; i don't believe he did. like i said, he didn't talk very much. about the only time we would talk was about the weather and babies, something like that. mr. ball. do you remember this day whether or not you let him walk to the house where his wife was staying? mr. frazier. to be frank with you, i can't remember positively whether i let him off at the house or whether he got out there where i lived, just to be frank with you. mr. ball. you know where the house is, don't you? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. ball. where mrs. paine lives? mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. how far is that from your house? mr. frazier. like i say, it is just about half a block up the street. mr. ball. it is on the same street, is it? mr. frazier. well, i say, we lived at the corner of westbrook and fifth street, and fifth street runs on up, you know, and i say they live on fifth street. mr. ball. what direction does fifth run, east, west, north or south? mr. frazier. it runs east and west. mr. ball. east and west. and you live on the corner of westbrook and fifth? mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. and paine's house is east or west of your house? mr. frazier. it is west. mr. ball. it is west of of your house? mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. about a half block? mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. on the same street. fifth street? mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. what side of the street do you live on, the north side or south side of fifth street? mr. frazier. north side. mr. ball. what side of the street do the paine's live on, the north or south side of fifth street? mr. frazier. north. mr. ball. you both live on the north side? mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. so to walk from paine's house to your house you walk east along the north side of fifth street across westbrook, is that right? mr. frazier. now, from the corner of westbrook and fifth you walk west on the same side of the street on the north side. mr. ball. on the north side? mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. from your house to paine's? mr. frazier. right, you walk west. mr. ball. and from paine's house to yours. ok. now, did you see oswald any that night, the thursday night---- mr. frazier. no, sir; i didn't. mr. ball. you brought him home. next morning what time did you get up? what time did you get up the next morning? mr. frazier. i believe i got up around : , that is the time i usually get up, right around : there. mr. ball. always eat your breakfast before you go to work? mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. do you remember the night before, that is after you got home that night, that your sister asked you how it happened that oswald came home with you? mr. frazier. yes; i believe she did or something. we got to talking about something and said, i told her that he had rode home with me and told her he said he was going to come home and pick up some curtain rods or something. i usually don't talk too much to my sister, sometimes she is not there when i am in because she is either at the store or something like that and i am either when she comes in as i say i am playing with the little nieces and we don't talk too much about work or something like that. mr. ball. this night, this evening, do you remember you did talk to her about the fact that oswald had come home with you? mr. frazier. i believe i did. mr. ball. did you tell her what he had told you? mr. frazier. yes, sir. i believe she said why did he come home now and i said, well, he says he was going to get some curtain rods. mr. ball. the next morning you had breakfast about what time? mr. frazier. between and : , that is the time i usually, i usually come to the breakfast table about . mr. ball. breakfast table in the kitchen? mr. frazier. yes, sir; it is in the den. mr. ball. and the kitchen windows look out on what street, westbrook or fifth? mr. frazier. westbrook. mr. ball. they look onto westbrook? mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. there is a back door, is there, to the kitchen? mr. frazier. yes; there is. i say when we come in there we have a double carport more or less type of garage. mr. ball. is that on westbrook? mr. frazier. yes, sir; the entrance to the garage there, more or less carport; yes, the entrance is from westbrook. mr. ball. as you were having breakfast did your mother say anything to you about---- mr. frazier. well, i say---- mr. ball. oswald? mr. frazier. i was sitting there eating my breakfast there, so sitting there, i usually talk to my little nieces, you know, they have them cartoons on for a while and we usually talk a little bit back and forth while eating breakfast and i was just finishing my coffee there and my sister, you know, was working over there around, you know the sink there, and she was fixing my lunch so she was somewhere around there over on the cabinets fixing the cabinets and mother just happened to glance up and saw this man, you know, who was lee looking in the window for me and she said, "who is that?" and i said, "that is lee," and naturally he just walked around and so i thought he just walked around there on the carport right there close to the door and so i told her i had to go, so i went in there and brushed my teeth right quick and come through there and i usually have my coat laying somewhere on the chair and picked it up and put it on and by that time my sister had my lunch, you know, in a sack and sitting over there on the washer where i picked it up right there by the door and i just walked on out and we got in the car. mr. ball. now, did your sister say anything as you were having breakfast? mr. frazier. no; she didn't say anything to me at all. mr. ball. she didn't say anything to you either about oswald or did she? mr. frazier. no, sir; say, she didn't say, you know, when i looked up and saw him i knew who it was. mr. ball. you saw him? mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. what was he doing? mr. frazier. he just looked through the kitchen window. to see from there on the ground outside there. i say you don't have to be any height at all, you don't have to be too tall to be able to look in the kitchen window there. i say, if you have the window open you can see in, if you have light on in there. mr. ball. when your mother mentioned, "who is that," you looked up and saw lee oswald in the kitchen window? mr. frazier. i just saw him for a split second and when he saw i saw him, i guess he heard me say, "well, it is time to go," and he walked down by the back door there. representative ford. when he would go with you on monday, on any monday, was this the same procedure for getting to, getting in contact with you? mr. frazier. you mean coming in there and looking through the window? representative ford. yes. mr. frazier. no, sir; it wasn't. i say, that is the first time he had ever done that. i say, most times i would usually call him, you know, i was already out in the car fixing to go out the driveway there, and, you know, around to pick him up if he hadn't come down but most times, once in a while i picked him up at the house and another time he was already coming down the sidewalk to the house when i was fixing to pick him up and i usually picked him up around the corner there. representative ford. did this different method of him meeting you raise any questions in your mind? mr. frazier. no, sir; it didn't. i just thought maybe, you know, he just left a little bit earlier but when i looked up and saw that the clock was, i knew i was the one who was running a little bit late because, as i say, i was talking, sitting there eating breakfast and talking to the little nieces, it was later than i thought it was. mr. ball. when you went out the back door where was oswald? mr. frazier. he was standing just a few feet there outside the back door there. mr. ball. he wasn't in the car? mr. frazier. no, sir; he wasn't. mr. ball. was he near the car? mr. frazier. no, sir; he wasn't. you see, always i keep my car parked outside the carport there, on the other side. mr. ball. he was just a few feet outside your back door when you came out? mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. did you walk together to the car? mr. frazier. yes; we did. mr. ball. and you got in one side and he got in the other? mr. frazier. yes. right in front there. mr. ball. did you say usually you had to go by and pick him up? mr. frazier. well, i said i had a couple of times. most of the time, you know, he was usually walking down the sidewalk as i was driving out of the driveway so, therefore, i didn't have to go up to the house there to pick him up. i just usually picked him up around the corner because he was usually on the sidewalk and i just stopped and picked him up. mr. ball. were you later than usual that morning? mr. frazier. no, sir; i don't believe we were, because we got to work on time. i say, when i looked at the clock, after i glanced he was there a split second and i just turned around and looked at the clock to see what time it was and it was right around : then and i went in and brushed my teeth real quick and running through the house put my coat on and we left. mr. ball. you both got in the car about the same time? mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. all right. when you got in the car did you say anything to him or did he say anything to you? mr. frazier. let's see, when i got in the car i have a kind of habit of glancing over my shoulder and so at that time i noticed there was a package laying on the back seat, i didn't pay too much attention and i said, "what's the package, lee?" and he said, "curtain rods," and i said, "oh, yes, you told me you was going to bring some today." that is the reason, the main reason he was going over there that thursday afternoon when he was to bring back some curtain rods, so i didn't think any more about it when he told me that. mr. ball. what did the package look like? mr. frazier. well, i will be frank with you, i would just, it is right as you get out of the grocery store, just more or less out of a package, you have seen some of these brown paper sacks you can obtain from any, most of the stores, some varieties, but it was a package just roughly about two feet long. mr. ball. it was, what part of the back seat was it in? mr. frazier. it was in his side over on his side in the far back. mr. ball. how much of that back seat, how much space did it take up? mr. frazier. i would say roughly around feet of the seat. mr. ball. from the side of the seat over to the center, is that the way you would measure it? mr. frazier. if, if you were going to measure it that way from the end of the seat over toward the center, right. but i say like i said i just roughly estimate and that would be around two feet, give and take a few inches. mr. ball. how wide was the package? mr. frazier. well, i would say the package was about that wide. mr. ball. how wide would you say that would be? mr. frazier. oh, say, around inches, something like that. , inches or there. i don't---- mr. ball. the paper, was the color of the paper, that you would get in a grocery store, is that it, a bag in a grocery store? mr. frazier. right. you have seen, not a real light color but you know normally, the normal color about the same color, you have seen these kinds of heavy duty bags you know like you obtain from the grocery store, something like that, about the same color of that, paper sack you get there. mr. ball. was there anything more said about the paper sack on the way into town? mr. frazier. no, sir; there wasn't. mr. ball. what route did you take into town that day? mr. frazier. went down--you know, i told you i had two routes; that day i went down, you know, fifth street runs into sixth after you cross the storey road there, so i just went on down sixth until i come to o'connor, and then took a left on o'connor and it takes you right on out to stemmons and from there i went right on into stemmons and come up commerce, and you go up commerce, there until you hit record street, that is one block over from houston and then i went down until i hit mckinney and then it goes right down to the warehouse and then take a left and you go right around to the parking lot. mr. ball. you didn't stop any place on your way in? mr. frazier. no, sir. mr. ball. park in the parking lot? mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. where did you park in the parking lot this time? mr. frazier. i parked in the same place the picture i showed you there. mr. ball. as shown in the picture. that is exhibit no. . anything else said about curtain rods? mr. frazier. no, sir; there wasn't. mr. ball. anything else said about the package? mr. frazier. no, sir; there wasn't. mr. ball. who got out of the car first? mr. frazier. he did. mr. ball. do you remember any conversation on the way in about anything? mr. frazier. yes, sir; i asked him did he have fun playing with them babies and he chuckled and said he did. and so that morning i said just a few minutes after we started you know it was a cloudy day and it started misting and rain and by the time we got out on the freeway i said, you know, how those trucks throw that grime on the windshield and finally it was getting pretty thick on there with spots of rain, and i turned on the windshield wiper and you know how grime spatters your windshield and i said, "i wish it would rain or just quit altogether, i wish it would do something to clear off the windshield," and the drops started getting larger so eventually it cleaned off the windshield and by the time i got down to dallas there i just turned off the windshield. just a few clouds, and rained a little bit to get out of it. but other than that just saying the weather was messy, that is about all. mr. ball. was it foggy? mr. frazier. no, sir; not in too particular. i say in other words, just old cloudy, dull looking day and like i say fine mist of rain and after we got a little bit further we got into larger drops. mr. ball. was there anything said about the president coming to dallas that day? mr. frazier. no, sir; it wasn't. mr. ball. did he say anything about that the day before? mr. frazier. no, sir. mr. ball. did you ever have any conversation with him with reference to the president's visit to texas? mr. frazier. no, sir. mr. ball. when you got to the parking lot who got out of the car first? mr. frazier. he did. mr. ball. you didn't get out immediately then? mr. frazier. no, sir; i was sitting there, say, looked at my watch and somewhere around or minutes until and i saw we had a few minutes and i sat there, and as i say you can see the freeway, stemmons freeway, from the warehouse and also the trains coming back and forth and i was sitting there. what i was doing--glanced up and watching cars for a minute but i was letting my engine run and getting to charge up my battery, because when you stop and start you have to charge up your battery. mr. ball. did you have your lunch beside you? mr. frazier. yes, sir; i did. mr. ball. did you notice whether or not lee had a package that looked like a lunch package that morning? mr. frazier. you know like i told you earlier. i say, he didn't take his lunch because i remember right when i got in the car i asked him where was his lunch and he said he was going to buy his lunch that day. mr. ball. he told you that that day, did he? mr. frazier. right. that is right. so, i assumed he was going to buy it, you know, from that catering service man like a lot of the boys do. they don't bring their lunch but they go out and buy their lunch there. mr. ball. what did he do about the package in the back seat when he got out of the car? mr. frazier. like i say, i was watching the gages and watched the car for a few minutes before i cut it off. mr. ball. yes. mr. frazier. he got out of the car and he was wearing the jacket that has the big sleeves in them and he put the package that he had, you know, that he told me was curtain rods up under his arm, you know, and so he walked down behind the car and standing over there at the end of the cyclone fence waiting for me to get out of the car, and so quick as i cut the engine off and started out of the car, shut the door just as i was starting out just like getting out of the car, he started walking off and so i followed him in. so, eventually there he kept getting a little further ahead of me and i noticed we had plenty of time to get there because it is not too far from the depository and usually i walk around and watch them switching the trains because you have to watch where you are going if you have to cross the tracks. one day you go across one track and maybe there would be some cars sitting there and there would be another diesel coming there, so you have to watch when you cross the tracks, i just walked along and i just like to watch them switch the cars, so eventually he kept getting a little further ahead of me and by that time we got down there pretty close to the depository building there, i say, he would be as much as, i would say, roughly feet in front of me but i didn't try to catch up with him because i knew i had plenty of time so i just took my time walking up there. mr. ball. did you usually walk up there together. mr. frazier. yes, sir; we did. mr. ball. is this the first time that he had ever walked ahead of you? mr. frazier. yes, sir; he did. mr. ball. you say he had the package under his arm when you saw him? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. ball. you mean one end of it under the armpit? mr. frazier. yes, sir; he had it up just like you stick it right under your arm like that. mr. ball. and he had the lower part---- mr. frazier. the other part with his right hand. mr. ball. right hand? mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. he carried it then parallel to his body? mr. frazier. right, straight up and down. representative ford. under his right arm? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. ball. did it look to you as if there was something heavy in the package? mr. frazier. well, i will be frank with you, i didn't pay much attention to the package because like i say before and after he told me that it was curtain rods and i didn't pay any attention to it, and he never had lied to me before so i never did have any reason to doubt his word. mr. ball. did it appear to you there was some, more than just paper he was carrying, some kind of a weight he was carrying? mr. frazier. well, yes, sir; i say, because one reason i know that because i worked in a department store before and i had uncrated curtain rods when they come in, and i know if you have seen when they come straight from the factory you know how they can bundle them up and put them in there pretty compact, so he told me it was curtain rods so i didn't think any more about the package whatsoever. mr. ball. well, from the way he carried it, the way he walked, did it appear he was carrying something that had more than the weight of a paper? mr. frazier. well, i say, you know like i say, i didn't pay much attention to the package other than i knew he had it under his arm and i didn't pay too much attention the way he was walking because i was walking along there looking at the railroad cars and watching the men on the diesel switch them cars and i didn't pay too much attention on how he carried the package at all. mr. ball. i will show you this picture again, this map, which is the commission's exhibit no. , and would you show us the way he walked, the course he walked from the place your car was parked up to the texas school book depository. you come around here and here is a black pen. show us the course that he walked. mr. frazier. like i say, i had that car parked. mr. ball. put an "x" there which will represent your car. mr. frazier. all right (indicating). mr. ball. that is where your car was parked? mr. frazier. i would say roughly like in there, you know like the picture shows right in there. mr. ball. now, draw a line to show the way that he walked. mr. frazier. o.k. mr. ball. the direction he walked. mr. frazier. all right. like i say, he was standing right about there when i got out of the car so naturally he started off walking so we just come on right on just like you would come across these tracks right here, and he was coming right on along the fence like that. just coming right on, right here now is the school book depository, right, so he was coming right on down this fence there and he was coming across these tracks, and standing right in here somewhere at the door. mr. ball. door? mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. at the end of that put a "xy", so "x" to "xy" will represent the course he walked. it shows "xy". mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. then "x" to "xy" is the course he took, is that right? mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. did you go in the same door? mr. frazier. yes, sir; i did. mr. ball. you walked the same direction? mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. now when he went in the door you were about feet behind him? mr. frazier. right. the last time i saw him i was right in this area coming across these railroad tracks and i just happened to glance up and see him going through the door there and shut the door. mr. ball. let's see, the last time you saw him he was at the door? mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. which is at "xy" and you were crossing the railroad tracks on pacific avenue? mr. frazier. no, sir; i say this is houston. mr. ball. pacific runs east and west? mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. put a mark there, put a "z" there as to your location. mr. frazier. right in there. mr. ball. that is about where you were, a "z" when he entered the door at "xy"? mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. now, you went on in the building, did you, afterwards? mr. frazier. right. i went on in. mr. ball. well, the first floor of the texas school book depository is fairly clear, isn't it, it is clear of partitions? mr. frazier. pretty well. i will say we have bins after you get so far. mr. ball. toward the middle of the floor you have bins? mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. did you see lee as you walked in the door? mr. frazier. no, sir; i didn't. mr. ball. here is commission which we will show you. i will put it up high so everyone can see it. there is a picture in the lower left corner which is marked "exterior view of entrance door from houston street loading dock." mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. is that the door? mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. that is the door that lee entered? mr. frazier. that is right. mr. ball. and that is also the door that you entered, is that correct? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. ball. and over to the right here is the interior view of entrance door. mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. that is the same door, isn't it? mr. frazier. now, this door, you see right there is that door right there. mr. ball. in other words, the door in the lower left-hand corner is the outside door? mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. and as you walk through--and this is the door, the outside door, is shown in the picture on the lower right-hand corner? mr. frazier. that is right, right there, that is this same door you are looking at over here. mr. ball. then there is an interior door? mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. leading into the interior that is also shown there? mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. that is sort of, what is it--a little corridor that you walk through? mr. frazier. i say it is just about that distance from here over to that man over there. mr. ball. let's take a look there. mr. frazier. it is called the loading zone there. mr. ball. this map shows certain steps up, doesn't it? mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. where is the door that you entered or that he entered. mr. frazier. right here. mr. ball. that is the door. is that covered, is that area covered with a ceiling roof? mr. frazier. yes, sir; it is. mr. ball. and this is also walled in, is it? mr. frazier. right. the railroad track runs along here. mr. ball. after you get into this outside shed how did you get into the first floor of the texas school book depository? mr. frazier. through that door. mr. ball. through the door there, into the interior door? mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. how much of the first floor here is clear so that you can see anybody there? mr. frazier. roughly say, let's see, just a few feet back, you know here is the door right here. mr. ball. whose door? mr. frazier. mr. shelley's. mr. ball. yes. mr. frazier. just a few feet back in here is where the bins start, they run this way. mr. ball. can you mark in this where the bins start, the place? mr. frazier. here. mr. ball. just draw a line across, you don't need to draw in the bins but just where the bins start and we we will know it is the area. mr. frazier. somewhere right in here. mr. ball. draw the line clear across. we will mark the line "a" on one side and "b" on the other so that we can refer to it. now, the area between, all the area shown in here from entrance to line "ab", is clear, is it? mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. now, the line from "ab" to the elm street side there are bins, are they? mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. and are those bins man high? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. ball. , feet? mr. frazier. yes, sir. like i say these bins, we have two or three that run across this way, like i have this line drawn, and they have broken spaces, and you can see a man on the other side of these bins because they are not sealed up in the back. in other words, you can put books in, say, from this side and go on the other side and have another. anyway, we have more like these window here. mr. ball. the windows on elm street? mr. frazier. right. we have some bins running this way, over here, several bins, two or three over here, and two or three over here. mr. ball. is this the only entrance to the first floor of the building, the one you have shown us? mr. frazier. no, sir, it is not. mr. ball. what other entrance is there? mr. frazier. right here is the main entrance. mr. ball. the main entrance? mr. frazier. that is right, coming on through here. mr. ball. there are two entrances. there is a main entrance in the front of the building or the elm street entrance, and then there is the door through which you entered the first floor, is that right? mr. frazier. yes, then we have another. mr. ball. where? mr. frazier. out over here, let's see if i can find it, where the garage where we have the truck. let's see. mr. ball. there is an overhead door here. mr. frazier. i see, right through here now, i see right through this door here we come out right here and we come out in this area right in here where we have another dock right out in this area right here, in that area there. mr. ball. that would be---- mr. frazier. that would be one, two, three. from this loading, like i say, where we keep the truck. mr. ball. is this overhead door usually covered, usually down closed, rather? mr. frazier. yes, sir; i say we keep it closed, and we have it here back in cold weather and we kept it closed and like i say when you go out there and get into the truck like you are going to drive the truck. mr. ball. mark an arrow that you say is the entrance or exit, mark an arrow going out. mr. frazier. going out. mr. ball. all right. now, this day did you see lee oswald the rest of the morning? mr. frazier. yes, sir; i saw him back and forth, you know, that morning walking around, filling books and so forth, filling orders, had invoices filling orders. mr. ball. when you came in that morning to go to work where did you go first? mr. frazier. i went like i did every morning, i went down in the basement there and hung up my coat and put up my lunch. mr. ball. did you see oswald down there? mr. frazier. no; i didn't. mr. ball. then you went to work? mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. how did you get to the basement? mr. frazier. went down through the, now over there where they have--are you familiar with the depository building? mr. ball. only through the map. mr. frazier. we have the---- mr. ball. there is the map of the first floor. does it show the steps leading down to the basement? mr. frazier. yes, sir. you see the one there where you have the arrow that is one entrance to the basement and that is the entrance i used the biggest part of the time, that is the one i go down. mr. ball. did you see oswald there? mr. frazier. no, sir; i didn't. mr. ball. during the morning you say you saw oswald around filling orders? mr. frazier. yes, sir; i did. mr. ball. were you on the sixth floor any that morning? mr. frazier. one time just a few seconds. i said to mr. shelley we had some book returns. they had sent back and he told me to count the books and make sure they were all there and put them in the space and so i took the elevator and loaded them on with a two-wheeler and so i know where they went, and i went to the shelf off the elevator and put them on the shelf and turned around and went right on down. mr. ball. were they doing some work there that day? mr. frazier. yes, sir; they were. representative ford. what time was that? mr. frazier. when i went to put up the stock? representative ford. yes. on the sixth floor. mr. frazier. that was sometime between and o'clock. i say it was the early part of the morning. mr. ball. what kind of work did you notice they were doing up there? mr. frazier. as well as i remember they were moving stock, i believe putting up some stock, straightening up the stock. mr. ball. any work done on the floor? mr. frazier. i don't remember if they were working on the floor or not. they may have because upon the fifth floor i know we have done the fifth floor. mr. ball. do you remember the names of any workmen you saw on the sixth floor that morning you were there? mr. frazier. i believe billy was up there, billy lovelady, but so far as i can say i went and put books on the shelf and turned around and walked back and glanced up when i was coming back, i didn't stay any length of time because when we are pretty busy, some fill out orders and some doing something else and if you have a lot of orders to fill you haven't got a lot of time to sit around and be talking. mr. ball. did you see oswald on the sixth floor any time that morning? mr. frazier. no, sir. i didn't because like i say that was the only time i went up there at all that day and i was just up there for a few seconds. mr. ball. did you talk to him any that morning? mr. frazier. i don't believe i did much unless he asked me something about a book like i told you, and i was always willing to help anybody i can. mr. ball. now, you knew that the president was going to pass that building sometime that morning, didn't you? mr. frazier. well, i heard he would. mr. ball. did you talk to some of the men around there about it? mr. frazier. no, sir; i didn't. mr. ball. did you ever talk to oswald about that? mr. frazier. no, sir; i didn't. mr. ball. what time did you knock off for lunch? mr. frazier. . mr. ball. did you eat your lunch? mr. frazier. no, sir; not right then i didn't. i say, you know, he was supposed to come by during our lunch hour so you don't get very many chances to see the president of the united states and being an old texas boy, and [he] never having been down to texas very much i went out there to see him and just like everybody else was, i was standing on the steps there and watched for the parade to come by and so i did and i stood there until he come by. mr. ball. you went out there after you quit work? mr. frazier. right, for lunch. mr. ball. about o'clock? mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. and you hadn't eaten your lunch up to that time? mr. frazier. no. mr. ball. did you go out there with somebody? mr. frazier. yes, sir; i did. mr. ball. who did you go out there with? mr. frazier. i stayed around there pretty close to mr. shelley and this boy billy lovelady and just standing there, people talking and just talking about how pretty a day it turned out to be, because i told you earlier it was an old cloudy and misty day and then it didn't look like it was going to be a pretty day at all. mr. ball. and it turned out to be a good day? mr. frazier. pretty sunshiny day. mr. ball. warm? mr. frazier. yes, sir; it was pretty warm. mr. ball. then let's see, there was billy lovelady and you were there. mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. anybody else you can remember? mr. frazier. there was a lady there, a heavy-set lady who worked upstairs there whose name is sarah something, i don't know her last name. mr. ball. were you near the steps? mr. frazier. yes, sir; i was, i was standing about, i believe, one step down from the top there. mr. ball. one step down from the top of the steps? mr. frazier. yes, sir; standing there by the rail. mr. ball. by steps we are talking about the steps of the entrance to the building? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. ball. shown in this picture? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. ball. which is commission's exhibit no. . can you come over here and show us about where you were standing? mr. frazier. yes, sir. like i told you this was an entrance right here. mr. ball. yes, sir. mr. frazier. we have a bar rail running about half way up here. this was the first step and i was standing right around there. mr. ball. put a mark there. your name is frazier, put an "f" there for frazier. mr. frazier. o.k. mr. ball. in the picture that would show you about there, would it? mr. frazier. yes, sir; you can see, just see, the top, about the top rail there, i was standing right in there. mr. ball. right in there? mr. frazier. to be frank with you, i say, shadow from the roof there knocked the sun from out our eyes, you wouldn't have any glare in the eyes standing there. mr. ball. there was a roof over your head, was there? mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. did you stand there for minutes or--tell us how long you stayed there? mr. frazier. well, i stood there until the parade come by. mr. ball. did you see the president go by? mr. frazier. yes, sir; i did. mr. ball. did you hear anything? mr. frazier. well, i say, just right after he went by he hadn't hardly got by, i heard a sound and if you have ever been around motorcycles you know how they backfire, and so i thought one of them motorcycles backfired because right before his car came down, now there were several of these motorcycle policemen, and they took off down toward the underpass down there, and so i thought, you know, that one of them motorcycles backfired, but it wasn't just a few seconds that, you know, i heard two more of the same type of, you know, sounds, and by that time people was running everywhere, and falling down and screaming, and naturally then i knew something was wrong, and so i come to the conclusion somebody else, somebody was shooting at somebody and i figured it was him. mr. ball. you figured it was who? mr. frazier. i figured it was somebody shooting at president kennedy because people were running and hollering so i just stood still. i have always been taught when something like that happened or anywhere as far as that it is always best to stand still because if you run that makes you look guilty sure enough. mr. ball. now, then, did you have any impression at that time as to the direction from which the sound came? mr. frazier. well, to be frank with you i thought it come from down there, you know, where that underpass is. there is a series, quite a few number, of them railroad tracks running together and from where i was standing it sounded like it was coming from down the railroad tracks there. mr. ball. were you able to see the president, could you still see the president's car when you heard the first sound? mr. frazier. no, sir; i couldn't. from there, you know, people were standing out there on the curb, you see, and you know it drops, you know the ground drops, off there as you go down toward that underpass and i couldn't see any of it because people were standing up there in my way, but however, when he did turn that corner there, there wasn't anybody standing there in the street and you could see good there, but after you got on past down there you couldn't see anything. mr. ball. you didn't see the president's car at the time you heard the sound? mr. frazier. no, sir; i didn't. mr. ball. but you stood right there, did you? mr. frazier. right. stood right where i was. mr. ball. and mr. shelley was still standing there? mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. and also billy lovelady? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. ball. the three of you didn't go any place? mr. frazier. i believe billy and them walked down toward that direction but i didn't. i just stood where i was. i hadn't moved at all. mr. ball. did you see anybody after that come into the building while you were there? mr. frazier. you mean somebody other that didn't work there? mr. ball. a police officer. mr. frazier. no, sir; i stood there a few minutes, you know, and some people who worked there; you know normally started to go back into the building because a lot of us didn't eat our lunch, and so we started back into the building and it wasn't but just a few minutes that there were a lot of police officers and so forth all over the building there. mr. ball. then you went back into the building, did you? mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. and before you went back into the building no police officer came up the steps and into the building? mr. frazier. not that i know. they could walk by the way and i was standing there talking to somebody else and didn't see it. mr. ball. did anybody say anything about what had happened, did you hear anybody say anything about the president had been shot? mr. frazier. yes, sir; right before i went back, some girl who had walked down a little bit further where i was standing on the steps, and somebody come back and said somebody had shot president kennedy. mr. ball. do you know who it was who told you that? mr. frazier. sir? mr. ball. do you know who the girl was who told you that? mr. frazier. she didn't tell me right directly but she just came back and more or less in a low kind of hollering she just told several people. mr. ball. then you went back into the building, did you? mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. and police officers came in there? mr. frazier. yes, sir; i would say by the time, you know some of us went back in, and it wasn't just a few minutes, i say there were several. mr. ball. did you stay on the first floor? mr. frazier. well, stayed on the first floor there for a few minutes and i hadn't eaten my lunch so i had my lunch down there in the basement and i went down there to get my lunch and eat it and i walked back up on the first floor there. mr. ball. when you came back into the building, you came in the front door, didn't you? mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. did you go down to the basement immediately or did you stand around on the first floor? mr. frazier. no, sir; i stood around for several minutes there, you know, and then, you know, eventually the ones who hadn't eaten their lunch, some of them had taken their lunch outside. mr. ball. did other people go downstairs with you? mr. frazier. no, sir; they didn't. mr. ball. you went down alone, did you? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. ball. did you go at any time in the back end of the building back near the door to the loading dock? mr. frazier. no, sir; i never did. mr. ball. perhaps i had better ask you to point out on the map here where you were. come over here, please. mr. frazier. o.k. mr. ball. you came in back into the building? mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. tell us where you went and what you did? mr. frazier. well, you know like i said i come back through here [indicating on commission exhibit no. , diagram of first floor]. mr. ball. by "coming back through here," you mean you came down the hallway and into the entrance into the first floor warehouse? mr. frazier. right, and you come by mr. shelley's office, that is his counter right here, after you get in, you get off here, that is his office, anyway, right out, i come out around here, you know where several of the people walked around here. mr. ball. that is in the bin area? mr. frazier. no, sir; the bins don't start automatically right up in here. i say, there is a little bit more or less, like more or less a hall through here, but anyway, you know, i say, you have two or three bins. mr. ball. through here you mean there is sort of a hall after you enter into the warehouse? mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. right. mr. frazier. from it, after you come past this counter you have several rows of bins coming this way, but, i say, right after you get past, say, this last bin right here running that way, right out this general area right here you have a telephone and everything out in here. mr. ball. well, you indicated that everything that would be beyond this line, the bin lines, would be clear on the first floor. mr. frazier. right, beyond here. mr. ball. did you ever go into that area where it was clear before you went downstairs? from the time you came back into the room, did you go down into this area which was clear before you went downstairs? mr. frazier. no, sir; i didn't go in here. i was right over right close to mr. shelley's office right around here and sit around and talked with some guys around there. mr. ball. you are indicating around mr. shelley's office? mr. frazier. yes, sir; pretty close right there, like i say more or less right out over in here we have a---- mr. ball. put a mark there. mr. frazier. let's see---- mr. ball. put a circle to show the general area where you and the rest of them stood around and talked. mr. frazier. right in there is right around near the telephone and we were just right around in there. mr. ball. where did you go? mr. frazier. we left, you know, after we stood and talked with some guys there, some of them had eaten and some of them didn't, some of them had sandwiches in their hands, so naturally i felt like eating and i walked around the bin and walked down the steps there. mr. ball. got your lunch? mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. come back up? mr. frazier. no, sir; i didn't come back up. i was sitting eating my lunch. i looked at my watch and didn't have but minutes, so i naturally ate faster than normal, so i was eating a couple of sandwiches, and eat an apple or something and come right back up and the guys, the people who worked there, standing around on the first floor, some of them eating their lunches and others merely talking. mr. ball. you never went back to work? mr. frazier. no, sir; we didn't. i didn't work any more that day. mr. ball. you stayed there on the job until you were told to go home? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. ball. what time did they tell you to go home? mr. frazier. it was between and there sometime, roughly, i don't know what time it was. mr. ball. had the police officers come in there and talked to you? mr. frazier. yes, sir; they come in and talked to all of us. they asked us to show our proper identification, and then they had us to write our name down and who to get in touch with if they wanted to see us. mr. ball. did they ask you where you had been at the time the president passed? mr. frazier. yes, sir; they had. i told them i was out on the steps there. mr. ball. asked you who you were with? mr. frazier. yes, sir; i told them and naturally mr. shelley and billy vouched for me and so they didn't think anything about it. mr. ball. did you hear anybody around there asking for lee oswald? mr. frazier. no, sir; i didn't. mr. ball. at any time before you went home, did you hear anybody ask for lee? mr. frazier. no, sir; i don't believe they did, because they, you know, like one man showed us, we had to give proper identification and after we passed him he told us to walk on then to the next man, and we, you know, put down proper information where he could be found if they wanted to see you and talk to you any more, and then we went on up to a little bit more to the front entrance more toward mr. shelley's office there with another man and stood there for a little while and told us all that was there could go ahead and go home. mr. ball. then you went on home? mr. frazier. right. representative ford. did all this occur after you had finished your lunch? mr. frazier. yes, sir; it did. representative ford. did it ever occur to you at any time following the shooting there was something connecting the shooting with lee oswald and the package? mr. frazier. well, i say not particularly not at that time, i didn't think anything about it because, to be frank with you, some were over here, one or two would be over here talking and just strung out here, on the first floor and i didn't think anything about it. i see some of the guys, they go out for lunch and they come back : so i didn't know whether he had went out to lunch or not. some of them do every week. representative ford. did any of the policemen interfere with your efforts to go into the building and eventually down into the basement where you had your lunch? mr. frazier. no, sir; they didn't. mr. ball. before you left, did you look for oswald to see about taking him home? mr. frazier. no; i didn't, sir. mr. ball. was there some reason why you didn't? mr. frazier. yes, sir; i did. because like i told you, he was going home to get the curtain rods and i asked him at the time, the same time, it would be about that, would he be going home with me friday afternoon like he had been doing, he said no. so naturally when they let us go i took on off because i thought maybe they had already dismissed him and he went on home. mr. ball. when you talked to him on thursday and he told you he wouldn't be going home on friday, did he tell you what he was going to do, why he wasn't going to go home? mr. frazier. no, sir; he didn't. mr. ball. did you talk to him again on friday morning as to whether or not he had changed his mind? did you ask him whether or not you could pick him up at the end of the day? mr. frazier. to be frank with you, mr. ball, i am not sure. mr. ball. whether you did or not. did anybody tell you that lee oswald was missing before you went home? mr. frazier. no, sir; they didn't. representative ford. could you describe for the commission where you went on the sixth floor that morning in relationship to the overall picture of the sixth floor? mr. frazier. yes, sir; i could. representative ford. would you do so, please? mr. frazier. yes, sir. do you have a piece of paper i can draw? [witness draws diagram on piece of paper.] let's see, right here is your two elevator shafts we have. that morning i used this one over here. representative ford. would you mark houston, elm and the other streets? mr. frazier. this is houston, this is elm right out here. anyway, like i said, i won't draw these buildings. i have these two elevator shafts here. quickly you come off these elevator shafts right here, we have skids with books on them, and you see right on those skids you would have some shelves right about like this and so i merely walked over to the elevator with the two-wheeler we use on the dock and walked somewhere say maybe halfway, not quite halfway, there and put up some books, put them down on the floor there, on the floor level and so i just turned around and come back to the elevator and come on down, and went about my business. he had me putting up some books there on the shelves. representative ford. from this point here could you see the windows or the area at the corner of houston and elm in the building? mr. frazier. yes, sir; you could. i say you could look down and see this area back over here. representative ford. did you look over there? mr. frazier. no, sir; i didn't. right on down there, i knew where the books went so normally i didn't have to look around. i say, i was going to get through, if you are not familiar with the books and so forth it would take you a little longer to find and put them up. but if you know where they go you can put them up very quickly. so i knew this book went in the shelf because this book we don't handle very many of them and that is where i put books you don't handle very many, put them in the shelf. so i put the books in the shelf and turned around and put them in the elevator and come on down. mr. ball. can i have this marked as commission exhibit , the diagram just drawn by the witness to illustrate his work on the sixth floor? the chairman. it may be marked. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , for identification.) mr. ball. i have here commission's , a gray blue jacket. do you recognize this jacket? mr. frazier. no, sir; i don't. mr. ball. did you ever see lee oswald wear this jacket? mr. frazier. no, sir; i don't believe i have. mr. ball. commission exhibit no. , which can be described for the record as a gray jacket with zipper, have you seen lee oswald wear this jacket? mr. frazier. no, sir; i haven't. mr. ball. i have here commission , which is described as sort of a rust brown shirt. have you ever seen lee oswald wear this shirt? it has a hole in the sleeve near the elbow. mr. frazier. no, sir; i don't believe i have because most time i noticed when lee had it, i say he put off his shirt and just wear a t-shirt the biggest part of the time so really what shirt he wore that day i really didn't see it or didn't pay enough attention to it whether he did have a shirt on. mr. ball. on that day you did notice one article of clothing, that is, he had a jacket? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. ball. what color was the jacket? mr. frazier. it was a gray, more or less flannel, wool-looking type of jacket that i had seen him wear and that is the type of jacket he had on that morning. mr. ball. did it have a zipper on it? mr. frazier. yes, sir; it was one of the zipper types. mr. ball. it isn't one of these two zipper jackets we have shown? mr. frazier. no, sir. mr. ball. do you know what kind of trousers he had on, what color? mr. frazier. not that day, i don't remember. mr. ball. you wouldn't remember that day? mr. frazier. i had seen him wear some gray ones before. mr. ball. here is commission's exhibit no. which are gray trousers. had you ever seen him wear these? mr. frazier. yes; to be frank with you, i had seen something more or less of that order, that type of material, but so far as that, being sure that, was his pants or some of his clothes, i couldn't be sure. mr. ball. here is commission no. which is a pair of gray trousers. did you ever see him wear trousers of that type? mr. frazier. not that i know of. mr. ball. you are not able to tell us then anything or are you able to tell us, describe any of the clothing he had on that day, except this gray jacket? mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. that is the only thing you can remember? mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. i have here a paper sack which is commission's exhibit . that gray jacket you mentioned, did it have any design in it? mr. frazier. no, sir. mr. ball. was it light or dark gray? mr. frazier. it was light gray. mr. ball. you mentioned it was woolen. mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. ball. long sleeves? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. ball. buttoned sleeves at the wrist, or do you remember? mr. frazier. to be frank with you, i didn't notice that much about the jacket, but i had seen him wear that gray woolen jacket before. mr. ball. you say it had a zipper on it? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. ball. now we have over here this exhibit for identification which is which is a paper sack made out of tape, sort of a home made affair. will you take a look at this. does this appear to be anything like the color of the sack you saw on the back seat? mr. frazier. yes, sir; i would say it was, it was more a color like this. mr. ball. it was more like this color, correct? mr. frazier. yes. mr. ball. did it have tape on it or did you notice it? mr. frazier. well, like i say, i didn't notice that much about it as i didn't see it very much. mr. ball. will you take a look at it as to the length. does it appear to be about the same length? mr. frazier. no, sir. mr. ball. we will just use this. was one end of the sack turned over, folded over? do you remember that? mr. frazier. well, you know, like i was saying, when i glanced at it, but i say from what i saw i didn't see very much of it, i say the bag wasn't open or anything like it where you can see the contents. if you was going to say putting--to more or less a person putting in carefully he would throw it in carefully, you put it more toward the back. if he had anything folded up in it i didn't see that. mr. ball. when you saw him get out of the car, when you first saw him when he was out of the car before he started to walk, you noticed he had the package under the arm? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. ball. one end of it was under the armpit and the other he had to hold it in his right hand. did the package extend beyond the right hand? mr. frazier. no, sir. like i say if you put it under your armpits and put it down normal to the side. mr. ball. but the right hand on, was it on the end or the side of the package? mr. frazier. no; he had it cupped in his hand. mr. ball. cupped in his hand? mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. take a look at this paper bag which is commission exhibit for identification, with reference to the width. was the bag about that width or a different width? mr. frazier. well. i would say it appears to me it would be pretty close but it might be just a little bit too wide. i think it is, because you know yourself you would have to have a big hand with that size but like i say he had this cupped in his hand because i remember glancing at him when he was a walking up ahead of me. mr. ball. this is another bag here which has been marked commission's exhibit . but i don't see the stamp on it. this is fbi no. . this was shown to you before, wasn't it, in dallas? mr. frazier. yes, sir; it was. mr. ball. you were asked if you had seen this before, weren't you? mr. frazier. yes, sir; i was. mr. ball. when you first saw it, you felt that the bag you saw was of a different color, didn't you? mr. frazier. right, and i say they told me this one had been treated in the lab. mr. ball. if you will note there is a part of this bag which has not been treated. mr. frazier. yes. mr. ball. so i will show you this part of this exhibit that hasn't been treated, and tell me whether or not the paper, the color of the paper that has not been treated, is or is not similar to the color of the paper on the bag you saw on the back seat of your car that morning. (at this point, senator cooper entered the hearing room.) mr. frazier. to be frank with you, more like i say the color, the color i saw would be more like it but i imagine if this hadn't been run through that process that this color here that you unwrapped would be more closer to this. this seems to have a little bit different color to me. mr. ball. i didn't get the answer because of the--let's refer to this bag, that is the colored bag. mr. frazier. okay, sir. mr. ball. and the bag that is not colored, and the other is just a bag. mr. frazier. okay, sir. mr. ball. we are talking about the colored bag, the one that has changed its color. there is a part of the colored bag that hasn't changed color, isn't it? mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. that is the part i want to call your attention to. mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. the color of this bag, the colored bag, has not been treated. take a look at it. is that similar to the color of the bag you saw in the back seat of your car that morning? mr. frazier. it would be, surely it could have been, and it couldn't have been. like i say, see, you know this color, either one of these colors, is very similar to the type of paper that you can get out of a store or anything like that, and so i say it could have been and then it couldn't have been. mr. ball. do you mean by that that it is similar to the color? mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. and do you have a definite memory of the color of the bag you saw on the back seat of your car so that you can distinguish between one color and another? mr. frazier. i believe it would be more on this basis here. mr. ball. you say it would be more on the color of bag no. , is that right? mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. you will notice that this bag which is the colored bag, fbi exhibit no. , is folded over. was it folded over when you saw it the first time, folded over to the end? mr. frazier. i will say i am not sure about that, whether it was folded over or not, because, like i say, i didn't pay that much attention to it. mr. ball. this is commission exhibit no. . the chairman. that is the dark bag? mr. ball. the dark bag is commission exhibit no. . when you were shown this bag, do you recall whether or not you told the officers who showed you the bag--did you tell them whether you thought it was or was not about the same length as the bag you saw on the back seat? mr. frazier. i told them that as far as the length there, i told them that was entirely too long. mr. ball. what about the width? mr. frazier. well, i say, like i say now, now i couldn't see much of the bag from him walking in front of me. now he could have had some of it sticking out in front of his hands because i didn't see it from the front. the only time i did see it was from the back, just a little strip running down from your arm and so therefore, like that, i say, i know that the bag wouldn't be that long. so far as being that wide like i say i couldn't be sure. mr. ball. it could have been that wide? mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. now, you said that some of the bag might have been beyond his hands, did you say? mr. frazier. yes, sir; i said it could have, now i am not saying it was. mr. ball. in other words, it could have been longer than his hands? mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. it has been suggested that you take this bag, which is the colored bag, commission exhibit no. , and put it under your arm just as a sample, or just to show about how he carried the bag. mr. frazier. okay. mr. ball. put it under your armpit. mr. frazier. like that, normally your hand would come down like that and you would say, you would have an item, like you have seen people carry items like they would be walking along and your arm would come down like that, just like---- mr. ball. but are you sure that his hand was at the end of the package or at the side of the package? mr. frazier. like i said, i remember i didn't look at the package very much, paying much attention, but when i did look at it he did have his hands on the package like that. mr. ball. but you said a moment ago you weren't sure whether the package was longer or shorter. mr. frazier. and his hands because i couldn't see that about the package. mr. ball. by that, do you mean that you don't know whether the package extended beyond his hands? mr. frazier. this way? mr. ball. no; lengthwise, toward his feet. mr. frazier. no; now i don't mean that. mr. ball. what do you mean? mr. frazier. what i was talking about, i said i didn't know where it extended. it could have or couldn't have, out this way, widthwise not lengthwise. mr. ball. in other words, you say it could have been wider than your original estimate? mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. but you don't think it was longer than his hands? mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. how tall are you? mr. frazier. i am -foot, a little bit over -foot. mr. ball. do you know what your arm length is? mr. frazier. no, sir; i don't. mr. ball. we can probably measure it before you leave. did you ever see lee taking home anything with him from the texas book depository building? mr. frazier. no, sir; never did. mr. ball. did you ever see him taking a package home with him? mr. frazier. no, sir. mr. ball. when was the last time you can remember you saw lee? mr. frazier. you mean on the d? mr. ball. on the d, that day. mr. frazier. somewhere between it was after and somewhere before noon, because i remember i was walking down to the first floor that day, that was the only time i went up on the elevator was, like i say, for a few minutes and, i put that box of books up and put it down, and i was on the first floor putting up books all day and i seen him back and forth and he would be walking and getting books and put on the order. mr. ball. that was the last time you saw him all day? mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. you didn't talk to him again? mr. frazier. no, sir; i didn't. mr. ball. did you wear a coat or jacket to work that morning? mr. frazier. yes, sir; i did. mr. ball. it was chilly, was it? mr. frazier. yes, sir; it was. mr. ball. when you stood out on the front looking at the parade, where was shelley standing and where was lovelady standing with reference to you? mr. frazier. well, see, i was standing, like i say, one step down from the top, and mr. shelley was standing, you know, back from the top step and over toward the side of the wall there. see, he was standing right over there, and then billy was a couple of steps down from me over toward more the wall also. mr. ball. usually when lee walked in the building in the morning, when you came to work with him where did he go, do you know? mr. frazier. no, sir. he just walked in, say, like inside the building, and like i say i always went and put my lunch up and hang my jacket or coat up, whichever i wore, and he was usually around there on the first floor there after some of them put their lunch in the refrigerator, so far as that i never paid too much attention to what he usually did. mr. ball. you usually walked in together? mr. frazier. that is right, sir. mr. ball. and you separated after you got in there? mr. frazier. yes; after we got into the interior i just went and put my lunch up. mr. ball. did you notice where lee kept his lunch? mr. frazier. no, sir; i didn't. mr. ball. did you ever see him come into the building on other days than the days that he rode with you? mr. frazier. you mean did i ever see him come in the building when he rode with me? mr. ball. yes. mr. frazier. yes, sir; because when he rode with me we always walked together. mr. ball. no; other than when he rode with you. mr. frazier. oh, other than when he rode with me. no, sir; i didn't. the chairman. did he have any particular associates around there that you knew of? mr. frazier. not that i knew of. i say he didn't mingle with other guys like the rest of us. the rest of us usually joked back and forth with practically everybody who worked around there. but he usually kept to himself, that was the only time he talked to anybody was when he wanted to know something about a book or something like that. mr. ball. we have got a picture taken the day of the parade and it shows the president's car going by. now, take a look at that picture. can you see your picture any place there? mr. frazier. no, sir; i don't, because i was back up in this more or less black area here. mr. ball. i see. mr. frazier. because billy, like i say, is two or three steps down in front of me. mr. ball. do you recognize this fellow? mr. frazier. that is billy, that is billy lovelady. mr. ball. billy? mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. let's take a marker and make an arrow down that way. that mark is billy lovelady? mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. that is where you told us you were standing a moment ago. mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. in front of you to the right over to the wall? mr. frazier. yes. mr. ball. is this a commission exhibit? we will make this a commission exhibit no. . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. ball. that is written in. the arrow marks billy lovelady on commission's exhibit no. . the chairman. do you have any lockers there in which you put your clothes, and so forth? mr. frazier. no, sir; we don't. (at this point, representative ford withdrew from the hearing room.) mr. frazier. some boys hang their jackets up in there in that little domino room where they were going to play dominoes. but here lately, i have been wondering, you know, most of us wear our jackets, what we have on, because if you are going out there on a dock in the cold air we usually keep them on. the chairman. i see. mr. ball. on thursday afternoon when you went home, drove on home, did he carry any package with him? mr. frazier. no, sir; he didn't. mr. ball. did he have a jacket or coat on him? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. ball. what kind of a jacket or coat did he have? mr. frazier. that, you know, like i say gray jacket. mr. ball. that same gray jacket? mr. frazier. yes, sir. now, i can be frank with you, i had seen him wear that jacket several times, because it is cool type like when you keep a jacket on all day, if you are working on outside or something like that, you wouldn't go outside with just a plain shirt on. mr. ball. i have no further questions. the chairman. senator, have you any questions you would like to ask? i think that is all. does anybody else have any questions to ask? do you have any questions? mr. ball. mr. frazier, we have here this exhibit no. which is a sack and in that we have put a dismantled gun. don't pay any attention to that. will you stand up here and put this under your arm and then take hold of it at the side? now, is that anywhere near similar to the way that oswald carried the package? mr. frazier. well, you know, like i said now, i said i didn't pay much attention---- mr. ball. turn around. mr. frazier. i didn't pay much attention, but when i did, i say, he had this part down here, like the bottom would be short he had cupped in his hand like that and, say, like walking from the back if you had a big arm jacket there you wouldn't tell much from a package back there, the physical features. if you could see it from the front like when you walk and meet somebody you could tell about the package, but walking from behind you couldn't tell much about the package whatsoever about the width. but he didn't carry it from the back. if this package were shorter he would have it cupped in his hands. the chairman. could he have had the top of it behind his shoulder, or are you sure it was cupped under his shoulder there? mr. frazier. yes; because the way it looked, you know, like i say, he had it cupped in his hand. the chairman. i beg your pardon? mr. frazier. i said from where i noticed he had it cupped in his hands. and i don't see how you could have it anywhere other than under your armpit because if you had it cupped in your hand it would stick over it. mr. ball. could he have carried it this way? mr. frazier. no, sir. never in front here. like that. now, that is what i was talking to you about. no, i say he couldn't because if he had you would have seen the package sticking up like that. from what i seen walking behind he had it under his arm and you couldn't tell that he had a package from the back. mr. ball. when you cupped the bottom of your package in the hands, will you stand up, again, please, and the upper part of the package is not under the armpit, the top of the package extends almost up to the level of your ear. mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. or your eye level, and when you put the package under your armpit, the upper part of the package, and take a hold of the side of it with your right hand, it extends on approximately about inches, about the span of my hand, more than inches, , inches. mr. frazier. if you were using a yardstick or one of these little---- mr. ball. i was using my hand. mr. frazier. i know you were, but there are some different means to measure it. i will say it varies, if you use a yardstick. you can go and measure something with a tape measure, with a yardstick and come up with a different measurement altogether, maybe a quarter of an inch shorter or longer. mr. ball. i was asked, there was some uncertainty in your testimony as to the direction from which you heard the shots fired. let's see if we can illustrate it. you heard the shots fired and you expressed an opinion that it came from a certain direction. i would like to clear that up, if i could, on this map. here is the texas school book depository building, and you were standing right here, you said, weren't you? can you tell me? mr. frazier. you know the entrance there is not quite at that corner. mr. ball. that close. now, you say you heard these three sounds which you later thought were probably shots, you thought it came from a certain direction. can you tell us from what direction as illustrated on the map? mr. frazier. right. now i say, you know where it is the straight curve that goes under the underpass. mr. ball. that is the parkway? mr. frazier. right. i say it runs over this parkway, you don't have it on here--anyway, i say these railroad tracks there is a series of them that come up over this, up over this overpass there, and from where i was standing, i say, it is my true opinion, that is what i thought, it sounded like it came from over there, in the railroad tracks. mr. ball. that would be east and south? mr. frazier. no; that would be west and south. mr. ball. west and south? mr. frazier. no; it would be north. mr. ball. no; it wouldn't be north. mr. frazier. yes; it wouldn't be south because that is in that direction. mr. ball. this is north, and you say it, i believe, it came from north? mr. frazier. it would be more or less west and north were these tracks from this overpass. mr. ball. your direction was west and north as the source of the sound. well, take a look at the map that does show the overpass and you will put a mark on that. did any other people who were standing there with you express any opinion as to where they thought the sounds came from? mr. frazier. well, i say, after we found out it was shots i see some of the other people around there said when they were staying there, said that is what it was, downward right back from us, like where we were standing. if we had been standing somewhere else you might have gotten a different opinion, but from where we were standing on the steps there it sounded like back down to the right. mr. ball. here is a commission exhibit, no. . it is an aerial photograph, and it shows the texas school book depository building. mr. frazier. here is the depository building here. mr. ball. that is right, sir. here is the parkway. mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. here are the overpasses here. can you show us on that map where you think--will that map--can you on that map indicate the general direction from which you thought the sounds came from? mr. frazier. yes, sir; because we were standing right here. mr. ball. don't mark it up right now. mr. frazier. right. but what i am trying to say is we were standing down there, and back over here, this over here is more or less a knoll, and you can look over there and see this. you see this furthest left line that curved around here is the ones we take to come out on stemmons expressway, and this is a high knoll up here which runs where the tracks are, from standing there it sounded like it came from this general area over here. mr. ball. just mark on that if you can, if you can mark a source. mr. frazier. this is where it is. mr. ball. mark a circle. mr. frazier. i would say just like over in here. mr. ball. let's make it a little heavier. in that general direction? mr. frazier. yes, sir. that was just part of the knoll. mr. ball. the circle marked on no. , we will identify it with an "f," the circle marked "f" represents the direction, general direction, of a source of sound as you--as occurred to you as you stood on the front steps of the texas book depository building, is that right? mr. frazier. right. mr. ball. i have no further questions. the chairman. anything from you, senator? well, that will be all. thank you very much for coming and testifying before the commission. mr. frazier. thank you, mr. warren. the chairman. all right, bring in the next witness. the commission will be in order. mrs. randle, i will just read you a brief statement of the purpose of our meeting today. the purpose of today's hearing is to hear the testimony of buell wesley frazier and linnie mae randle. the commission has been advised that these two witnesses have stated that they saw lee harvey oswald on the morning of november , . the commission proposes to ask these witnesses questions concerning their knowledge of the assassination of president kennedy. you have a copy of that, do you not? very well, mr. ball will conduct the examination. will you rise and be sworn, please? do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before this commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mrs. randle. yes, sir. the chairman. please be seated. mr. ball? testimony of linnie mae randle mr. ball. mrs. randle, where do you live? mrs. randle. westfield, irving, tex. mr. ball. and you live there with your husband and three daughters, do you? mrs. randle. yes, sir. mr. ball. and your brother? mrs. randle. yes. mr. ball. wesley? mrs. randle. yes, sir. mr. ball. how long has wesley been living there? mrs. randle. since september, somewhere around the first, i am not sure just the date. mr. ball. do you know mrs. ruth paine? mrs. randle. she is a neighbor that lives up the street from me. mr. ball. when did you first meet mrs. paine? mrs. randle. well, for a period, i am not sure of this, it is quite years, i lived across the street from her. i didn't visit with her, but i visited with her neighbor who lives next door. mr. ball. what is her name? mrs. randle. mrs. dorothy roberts. mr. ball. that is on fifth street in irving, tex.? mrs. randle. that is right; yes. mr. ball. that was before you moved down the street to the corner of westfield and fifth street? mrs. randle. yes, sir. mr. ball. you had never visited in mrs. paine's home? mrs. randle. i was in her home on one occasion that i remember at a birthday party for one of her children and she invited mine. mr. ball. how long ago? mrs. randle. it has been about a year ago. mr. ball. that is the only time you have visited mrs. paine? mrs. randle. yes, sir. mr. ball. did you ever meet marina oswald? mrs. randle. yes, sir; i did. mr. ball. when did you meet her? mrs. randle. the first time i met her was over at this mrs. roberts. i had gone up there to see mrs. roberts and her, mrs. oswald and mrs. paine was over there drinking coffee, that was the first time i met her. mr. ball. when was that? mrs. randle. well, i believe it was the first week in october. mr. ball. that is the first time you had ever met mrs. oswald? mrs. randle. officially met her. i had seen her out in the yard and through the neighbor i knew who she was. i hadn't met her until that time. mr. ball. did you ever see her again to talk to her, marina oswald? mrs. randle. well, she couldn't speak english, "how are you" and things like that was about all she could say and i did visit with mrs. roberts quite often and so she would be out in the yard and she would speak. mr. ball. in whose yards, mrs. roberts' yard or mrs. paine's? mrs. randle. mrs. paine's. she played with her children, and kept the yard and things like that. mr. ball. but on this one occasion she was in the house, mrs. roberts' house? mrs. randle. mrs. roberts. mr. ball. with mrs. paine, mrs. roberts and yourself? mrs. randle. that is right. mr. ball. was there some conversation at that time about her husband lee oswald? mrs. randle. well, they had--it was just general knowledge in the neighborhood that he didn't have a job and she was expecting a baby. of course, i didn't know where he was or anything. and of course you know just being neighborly and everything, we felt sorry for marina because her baby was due right away as we understood it, and he didn't have any work, so they said, so it was just---- mr. ball. mrs. paine told you that lee didn't have any work? mrs. randle. well, i suppose. it was just in conversation. mr. ball. marina didn't take part in the conversation? mrs. randle. no. she couldn't. so far as i know, she couldn't speak. mr. ball. you and mrs. roberts and mrs. paine talked about it? mrs. randle. yes. mr. ball. was there anything said then about the texas school book depository as a place he might get a job? mrs. randle. well, we didn't say that he might get a job, because i didn't know there was a job open. the reason that we were being helpful, wesley had just looked for a job, and i had helped him to try to find one. we listed several places that he might go to look for work. when you live in a place you know some places that someone with, you know, not very much of an education can find work. so, it was among one of the places that we mentioned. we mentioned several others, and mrs. paine said that well, he couldn't apply for any of the jobs that would require driving because he couldn't drive, and it was just in conversation that you might talk just any day and not think a thing on earth about it. in fact, i didn't even know that he had even tried any place that we mentioned. mr. ball. what were some of the other places mentioned? mrs. randle. well, i remember two of them. mrs. roberts entered into the conversation and, of course, she is more familiar with the place than i am. it was manor bakeries which was a home delivery service. then there was this texas gypsum which makes sheet rock and things like that, and we mentioned because wesley had tried those places that i mentioned those. mr. ball. and then you also mentioned the texas book depository? mrs. randle. well, i didn't know there was a job opening over there. mr. ball. but did you mention it? mrs. randle. but we said he might try over there. there might be work over there because it was the busy season but i didn't have any previous knowledge that there was any job opening. mr. ball. did you later learn that lee had applied for a job? mrs. randle. she told me, mrs. paine told me, later that he had applied for the job, and had gotten the job and she thanked us for naming the places and things like that. mr. ball. did you tell your brother that a fellow named lee oswald was going to work for them? mrs. randle. no, sir; i didn't even know his name. she said lee so i just assumed that was his last name and i just merely mentioned to wesley that he had got the job or a job over there. mr. ball. that lee had the job? mrs. randle. that mrs. paine said that, i had told wesley that he might--that she said he was going to call over there. in fact, mrs. paine asked me if i would call and see if there was a job available and i told her, no, that i didn't know anybody over there, and if she wanted to call over the place she would have to do it because i didn't know if there was any job openings over there. mr. ball. you told wesley, though, that you had--mrs. paine had told you that lee had applied for a job and gotten a job there? mrs. randle. sir, i don't remember if i mentioned it to him or not. mr. ball. when you said a moment ago that you had mentioned something to wesley? mrs. randle. i might have had. but i can't say for sure i did because at the time it was unimportant to me. it didn't really matter. mr. ball. in other words, you are not sure whether you did or didn't? mrs. randle. that is right. i might have, i don't know maybe for sure if i did. mr. ball. did lee tell you at sometime that he had started to drive? mrs. randle. i never talked to lee. mr. ball. did wesley tell you that he was driving lee home weekends or driving him to irving weekends? mrs. randle. wesley had told me that he asked to ride out on weekends. mr. ball. did you ever see him arrive with lee? mrs. randle. yes, sir. mr. ball. do you recall on a thursday night, november that you saw lee get out of wesley's car? mrs. randle. that is right. mr. ball. about what time of night was it? mrs. randle. about : , i believe, : or : something like that. mr. ball. where were you when you saw him? mrs. randle. i was on my way to the grocery store. mr. ball. did you talk to wesley about the fact that he had brought lee home on this night? mrs. randle. no, sir. mr. ball. did you think it was unusual that he had come home that night? mrs. randle. well, i knew that he had--friday is the only time he had ever ridden with him before which was a couple of times, i don't think he rode with him over three times, i am not sure but i never did know of him arriving, you know, except on friday. mr. ball. well, did you mention to wesley that night or did you ask wesley that night how lee happened to come home on thursday? mrs. randle. i might have asked him. mr. ball. do you remember anything about curtain rods? mrs. randle. yes. mr. ball. what do you remember about that? mrs. randle. he had told wesley---- mr. ball. tell me what wesley told you. mrs. randle. what wesley told me. that lee had rode home with him to get some curtain rods from mrs. paine to fix up his apartment. mr. ball. when did wesley tell you that? mrs. randle. well, that afternoon i suppose i would have had to ask him, he wouldn't have just told me. mr. ball. you mean that night? mrs. randle. yes, sir. mr. ball. after he came home? mrs. randle. i was on my way to the store. so i probably asked him when i got back what he was doing riding home with him on thursday afternoon. mr. ball. you think that was the time that wesley told you---- mrs. randle. yes, sir; after i got back home. mr. ball. that lee had come home to get some curtain rods? mrs. randle. yes, i am sure he told me that. mr. ball. the next morning did you get breakfast for wesley, you, and your mother? mrs. randle. yes; mother and my children. mr. ball. and you were packing his lunch, too, were you? mrs. randle. yes, sir. mr. ball. did you see lee? mrs. randle. yes, i did. mr. ball. where did you see him? mrs. randle. i saw him as he crossed the street and come across my driveway to where wesley had his car parked by the carport. mr. ball. what street did he cross to go over? mrs. randle. he crossed westbrook. mr. ball. and you saw him walking along, did you? mrs. randle. yes, sir. mr. ball. was he carrying any package? mrs. randle. yes; he was. mr. ball. what was he carrying? mrs. randle. he was carrying a package in a sort of a heavy brown bag, heavier than a grocery bag it looked to me. it was about, if i might measure, about this long, i suppose, and he carried it in his right hand, had the top sort of folded down and had a grip like this, and the bottom, he carried it this way, you know, and it almost touched the ground as he carried it. mr. ball. let me see. he carried it in his right hand, did he? mrs. randle. that is right. mr. ball. and where was his hand gripping the middle of the package? mrs. randle. no, sir; the top with just a little bit sticking up. you know just like you grab something like that. mr. ball. and he was grabbing it with his right hand at the top of the package and the package almost touched the ground? mrs. randle. yes, sir. mr. ball. he walked over to your house, did he? mrs. randle. well, i saw him as he started crossing the street. where he come from then i couldn't say. mr. ball. you don't know where he went from that? mrs. randle. where he went? mr. ball. did you see him go to the car? mrs. randle. yes. mr. ball. what did he do? mrs. randle. he opened the right back door and i just saw that he was laying the package down so i closed the door. i didn't recognize him as he walked across my carport and i at that moment i wondered who was fixing to come to my back door so i opened the door slightly and saw that it--i assumed he was getting in the car but he didn't, so he come back and stood on the driveway. mr. ball. he put the package in the car. mrs. randle. yes, sir; i don't know if he put it on the seat or on the floor but i just know he put it in the back. mr. ball. we have got a package here which is marked commission exhibit no. . you have seen this before, i guess, haven't you, i think the fbi showed it to you? mrs. randle. yes, sir. mr. ball. was the color of that package in any way similar to the color of this package which is ? mrs. randle. yes, sir. mr. ball. similar kind of paper, wasn't it? mrs. randle. yes, sir. mr. ball. now, was the length of it any similar, anywhere near similar? mrs. randle. well, it wasn't that long, i mean it was folded down at the top as i told you. it definitely wasn't that long. mr. ball. how about the width? mrs. randle. the width is about right. mr. ball. the width is about right. can you stand up here and show us how he was carrying it. using this package as an example only? mrs. randle. what he had in there, it looked too long. mr. ball. this looks too long? mrs. randle. yes, sir. mr. ball. about how long would you think the package would be, just measure it right on there. mrs. randle. i would say about like this. mr. ball. you mean from here to here? mrs. randle. yes, sir; with that folded down with this much for him to grip in his hand. mr. ball. this package is about the span of my hand, say inches, is that right? he would have about this much to grip? mrs. randle. what i remember seeing is about this long, sir, as i told you it was folded down so it could have been this long. mr. ball. i see. you figure about feet long, is that right? mrs. randle. a little bit more. mr. ball. a little more than feet. there is another package here. you remember this was shown you. it is a discolored bag, which is exhibit no. , and remember you were asked by the federal bureau of investigation agents if this looked like the package; do you remember? mrs. randle. yes, sir. mr. ball. now, first of all with color, you told them the bag was not the color? mrs. randle. yes. mr. ball. but they showed you a part of the bag that had not been discolored, didn't they? mrs. randle. yes, sir. mr. ball. looking at this part of the bag which has not been discolored does that appear similar to the color of the bag you saw lee carrying that morning? mrs. randle. yes; it is a heavy type of wrapping paper. mr. ball. now, with reference to the width of this bag, does that look about the width of the bag that he was carrying? mrs. randle. i would say so; yes, sir. mr. ball. what about length? mrs. randle. you mean the entire bag? mr. ball. yes. mrs. randle. there again you have the problem of all this down here. it was folded down, of course, if you would take it from the bottom---- mr. ball. fold it to about the size that you think it might be. mrs. randle. this is the bottom here, right. this is the bottom, this part down here. mr. ball. i believe so, but i am not sure. but let's say it is. mrs. randle. and this goes this way, right? do you want me to hold it? mr. ball. yes. mrs. randle. about this. mr. ball. is that about right? that is - / inches. mrs. randle. i measured last time. mr. ball. you measured once before? mrs. randle. yes, sir. mr. ball. how was lee dressed that morning? mrs. randle. he had on a white t-shirt, i just saw him from the waist up, i didn't pay any attention to his pants or anything, when he was going with the package. i was more interested in that. but he had on a white t-shirt and i remember some sort of brown or tan shirt and he had a gray jacket, i believe. mr. ball. a gray jacket. i will show you some clothing here. first, i will show you a gray jacket. does this look anything like the jacket he had on? mrs. randle. yes, sir. mr. ball. that morning? mrs. randle. similar to that. i didn't pay an awful lot of attention to it. mr. ball. was it similar in color? mrs. randle. yes, sir; i think so. it had big sleeves. mr. ball. take a look at these sleeves. was it similar in color? mrs. randle. i believe so. mr. ball. what is the commission exhibit on this jacket? mrs. randle. it was gray, i am not sure of the shade. mr. ball. . i will show you another shirt which is commission no. . does this look anything like the shirt he had on? mrs. randle. well now, i don't remember it being that shade of brown. it could have been but i was looking through the screen and out the window but i don't remember it being exactly that. i thought it was a solid color. mr. ball. here is another jacket which is a gray jacket, does this look anything like the jacket he had on? mrs. randle. no, sir; i remember its being gray. mr. ball. well, this one is gray but of these two the jacket i last showed you is commission exhibit no. , and this blue gray is , now if you had to choose between these two? mrs. randle. i would choose the dark one. mr. ball. you would choose the dark one? mrs. randle. yes, sir. mr. ball. which is , as being more similar to the jacket he had? mrs. randle. yes, sir; that i remember. but i, you know, didn't pay an awful lot of attention to his jacket. i remember his t-shirt and the shirt more so than i do the jacket. mr. ball. the witness just stated that which is the gray-blue is similar to the jacket he had on. , the light gray jacket was not. mrs. randle. yes. mr. ball. i have no further questions. the chairman.. senator, have you any questions? senator cooper. no questions. the chairman. have you any questions, mr. powell? mr. powell. no, sir. senator cooper. i think i do have one. prior to the assassination of president kennedy, did any fbi agents or police officer ever visit your house? mrs. randle. no, sir. senator cooper. and said anything to you about lee oswald? mrs. randle. no, sir. mr. jenner. could i ask, mr. chief justice, along the line senator cooper touched on--whether there had been any conversation in the neighborhood prior to the assassination of any fbi agents or police officers having visited in the neighborhood? mrs. randle. no, sir. mr. jenner. you heard nothing along rumors of that kind? mrs. randle. no. later, after all this was over, i had heard that they had been to mrs. paine's residence. mr. jenner. but there was no excitement in the neighborhood up to that point? mrs. randle. no, sir. mr. ball. i have one question, mr. chief justice. you used an expression there, that the bag appeared heavy. mrs. randle. yes, sir. mr. ball. you meant that there was some weight appeared to be---- mrs. randle. to the bottom. mr. ball. to the bottom? mrs. randle. yes. it tapered like this as he hugged it in his hand. it was more bulky toward the bottom than it was this way. mr. belin. toward the top? more bulky toward the bottom than toward the top? mrs. randle. that is right. mr. ball. i have no further questions. senator cooper. on that point--did you see lee oswald place the package in the automobile? mrs. randle. in the automobile. i do not know if he put it on the seat or on the floor. senator cooper. i mean did you see him throw open the door? mrs. randle. yes, sir. senator cooper. when he placed the package in there do you remember whether he used one hand or two? mrs. randle. no; because i only opened the door briefly and what made me establish the door on wesley's car, it is an old car and that door, the window is broken and everything and it is hard to close, so that cinched in my mind which door it was, too. but it was only briefly that i looked. mr. jenner. mr. chief justice, could i ask--how far away were you? you were at the kitchen door and the automobile was in the driveway, what was the distance between yourself and mr. oswald? mrs. randle. sir, i don't know. the carport will take care of two cars, and then wesley's car was on the other side of the carport so that would be three car lengths plus inbetween space. mr. jenner. car widths? mrs. randle. car widths, excuse me. mr. jenner. was it a light day? mrs. randle. it was sort of cloudy, but there wasn't any--i mean it wasn't dark or anything like that. mr. jenner. would you be good enough as you can recall--can you recall what the fabric of the jacket was that mr. oswald had on this morning, was it twill or wool or gabardine? cotton? mrs. randle. probably cotton or gabardine, something like that that would repel water probably, and that is just my own opinion. mr. jenner. that is your present recollection? mrs. randle. yes, sir. mr. jenner. thank you. the chairman. mrs. randle, thank you very much for coming, you may be excused. testimony of cortlandt cunningham mr. ball. will you state your name for the record? mr. cunningham. cortlandt cunningham. the chairman. mr. cunningham, will you raise your right hand and be sworn, please? do you solemnly swear the testimony given before this commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. cunningham. i do. mr. ball. mr. cunningham, be seated there. what is your business? mr. cunningham. i am a special agent of the fbi. mr. ball. what is your specialty with the fbi? mr. cunningham. i am assigned to the fbi laboratory in the firearms identification unit. mr. ball. there is a rifle here that has been identified as commission exhibit no. , it has been in your custody, hasn't it? mr. cunningham. it has. mr. ball. you brought it over here this morning? mr. cunningham. i did. mr. ball. and i requested you disassemble it? mr. cunningham. i did. mr. ball. let's take it out of the sack and put it before the commission. do you need any special tools to assemble this rifle? mr. cunningham. no, sir. mr. ball. i notice you have a screwdriver there. can you assemble it without the use of a screwdriver? mr. cunningham. yes, sir. mr. ball. what can you use? mr. cunningham. any object that would fit the slots on the five screws that retain the stock to the action. mr. ball. could you do it with a -cent piece? mr. cunningham. yes, sir. mr. ball. will you do that--about how long will it take you? mr. cunningham. i know i can do it, but i have never been timed as far as using a dime. i have been timed using a screwdriver, which required a little over minutes. mr. ball. minutes with a screwdriver. try it with the dime and let's see how long it takes. okay. start now. six minutes. mr. cunningham. i think i can improve on that. mr. ball. and the only tool you used was a -cent piece? mr. cunningham. that is correct. mr. ball. that is all. senator cooper. does the bolt work all right now? mr. cunningham. once in a while with regard to the top portion--namely the retaining screw and the top stock--you have trouble getting them engaged on this particular model. the chairman. yes. mr. cunningham. that is the case on this weapon. on that one over there, however, it slid right on when i put it together a little while ago; it was much faster. the chairman. yes. this is a weapon identical to the one that has been identified as the assassination weapon? mr. cunningham. this is the assassination weapon. mr. ball. this is the weapon found on the sixth floor of the texas book depository. the chairman. may i ask, have you fired it? mr. cunningham. many times. the chairman. that has been fired many times? mr. belin. you can disassemble it in a lesser amount of time, i assume. mr. cunningham. definitely, it comes apart much faster. i can do it for you. the chairman. i understand with a screwdriver you put the rifle together in minutes. mr. cunningham. yes, sir; a few seconds over minutes, somewhere around - / , - / minutes, readily. the chairman. yes. mr. cunningham. and i am sure i can assemble it faster the second time with a dime than i did the last time but i did have trouble with that one retaining screw. the chairman. is there anything more you have on this? mr. ball. no. the chairman. anybody? well, agent cunningham, thank you very much, sir. mr. cunningham. thank you, sir. the chairman. gentlemen, if there are no further witnesses today, we will adjourn for the day, and we will meet tomorrow morning at o'clock for the purpose of taking further testimony. (whereupon, at : p.m., the president's commission recessed.) _thursday, march , _ testimony of william wayne whaley and cecil j. mcwatters the president's commission met at : a.m. on march , , maryland avenue ne., washington, d.c. present were chief justice earl warren, chairman; senator john cooper and representative gerald r. ford, members. also present were j. lee rankin, general counsel; joseph a. ball, assistant counsel; david w. belin, assistant counsel; melvin aron eisenberg, assistant counsel; lewis f. powell, jr. and charles murray, observers. testimony of william wayne whaley the chairman. mr. whaley, the purpose of our meeting today is to take some further testimony concerning the events surrounding the assassination of president kennedy, and we understand you have some facts that will bear on it in a way and we would like to ask you questions concerning it. will you rise, please, raise your right hand to be sworn? do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. whaley. i do, sir. the chairman. will you be seated, please? mr. ball will conduct the examination. mr. ball. mr. whaley, what is your business? mr. whaley. i am a taxi driver, sir. mr. ball. how long have you been a taxi driver? mr. whaley. years. mr. ball. you worked all that time in dallas? mr. whaley. yes, sir. mr. ball. what is your residence? mr. whaley. pine street, route , louisville, tex., miles north of dallas. mr. ball. but you drive a taxicab in dallas? mr. whaley. yes, sir. mr. ball. whom do you work for? mr. whaley. city transportation company. mr. ball. you are an employee of theirs, are you? mr. whaley. yes. mr. ball. you don't own your own cab? mr. whaley. no, sir; they don't allow that in that city. mr. ball. how long have you worked for that company? mr. whaley. years. not for that company, sir, but for the original owners, it started out. i have been in with that original company but all banded together in one cab company. mr. ball. were you on duty on the nd of november ? mr. whaley. yes, sir. mr. ball. what were your hours that day at work? mr. whaley. well, my hours run from to , sir; in the morning to in the afternoon. mr. ball. what kind of a cab were you driving on that day? mr. whaley. a checker. mr. ball. was it equipped with radio equipment? mr. whaley. yes, sir. mr. ball. you can call in to your dispatcher? mr. whaley. yes, sir; i can. mr. ball. by a two-way radio? mr. whaley. yes, sir. mr. ball. do you operate on cab stands or do you cruise? mr. whaley. no, sir; you just go out in the morning and wherever they send you you go to work and wherever you unload you check in they give you another call like that. mr. ball. about : that day where were you? mr. whaley. well, about : as you say, sir; i was at the greyhound bus station. i have a copy of my trip sheet here. mr. ball. could i see that, please? mr. whaley. the fbi took the original and the pictures of the cab and everything. mr. ball. that is what i have been waiting for. mr. whaley. i think it is supposed to be delivered to you, sir. mr. ball. that is right. i am glad you have that copy. mr. whaley. i thought maybe you might need it. you look down there it says greyhound, north beckley, i think it is marked : to : . now that could have been minutes off in each direction because i didn't use a watch, i just guess, in other words, all my trips are marked about minutes each. mr. ball. i am going to let you use this manifest to refresh your memory, mr. whaley. i have seen it. i am going to ask you some questions and you refresh your memory if you will from the manifest. first of all, describe the document you are using, what is that? mr. whaley. it is a trip sheet manifest. the company gets the amount of money you have run, your meter reading and all, and they have to keep it because of the city ordinance requirement that the taxis make this kind of manifest. mr. ball. tell me when you make the entries, you make the entries when? mr. whaley. sometimes i make them right after i make the trips, sir, and sometimes i make three or four trips before i make the entries. mr. ball. are you required by your employer to describe the trip, where you went, how far it was? mr. whaley. not by the employer, sir. all the employers are interested in are the meter reading and your tolls. the city of dallas ordinance requires that you put down where you picked the passenger up, where you unload the passenger. they are not interested in the price, the number of passengers and the time. mr. ball. now, the manifest does contain that information, though, does it? mr. whaley. yes, sir; it does. mr. ball. will you describe the different columns of the manifest, that information that is in each column generally? mr. whaley. over on the left side, where you see call or pickup, if you get the call on your radio you mark with a "c" and if somebody hails you on the street that is marked "p" for pickup. in the next column it has the trip numbers from one to fifty. mr. ball. the number of the trips you make that day? mr. whaley. yes, sir. in the third column it says "from." like this first one, belmont and then to the next column, to the airport. the next column is the "meter reading," what the meter said, $ . . the next column says "flat rate." if it had been an extra passenger or so and you had a flat rate you would put it in that column. the third column is "charge," the people who have the charge accounts through the company in the car, you put the meter reading in there because you don't get cash and you put charge, the company takes it off. the next column says the number of passengers and that first trip was four passengers, time out six o'clock, i got that trip out of the barn and it is marked "call." : is "time in." "mileage in" was . now, see i didn't put the mileage out on the first one, the mileage out is up here, to . it would have been nine miles i made on the first trip. over here on the side here, it has the number of trips i made that day which is , on the meter registered trips cents a trip is $ . . units, a unit is a dime clicks every four-tenths of a mile. that would be units at $ . . added total of $ . . i used - / gallons of gas, had eight pickups in calls and passengers. that is it complete, sir. mr. ball. i see. now, look at your manifest and tell me where you were at o'clock the day of november , . mr. whaley. o'clock i got a call to the travis hotel. i have got it marked which is the continental bus station, stand no. , cents. i unloaded that at : . mr. ball. then where did you go at : according to your record? mr. whaley. according to my record i got a pickup at the continental bus station which is stand and went to the greyhound which is cents. i unloaded at the greyhound, i have got it marked : . see there is that minutes you say i am off, i just mark it , i don't put the correct time on the sheet because they don't require it, sir, but anywhere approximate. mr. ball. in other words, it took you about minutes to go---- mr. whaley. it actually took about nine minutes, sir. mr. ball. and you put the trip ending greyhound around : ? mr. whaley. yes, sir. mr. ball. you remember that trip, do you, you remember the fact that you took the trip to the greyhound and parked your car at the greyhound or your cab at the greyhound, don't you? mr. whaley. yes, sir; i remember it. mr. ball. were you standing at the greyhound, at your cab stand at the greyhound, long before you picked up another passenger? mr. whaley. no, sir, there was no one at the greyhound stand and when i unloaded at the door i just pulled up about feet to the stand and stopped and then i wanted a package of cigarettes, i was out so i started to get out and i saw this passenger coming so i waited for him. mr. ball. he was coming down the street? mr. whaley. he was walking down the street. mr. ball. what street was he walking down? mr. whaley. lamar. mr. ball. would that mean he was walking south on lamar? mr. whaley. he was walking south on lamar from commerce when i saw him. mr. ball. that would be on which side of the street? mr. whaley. the west side of the street. mr. ball. south on lamar? mr. whaley. yes, sir. mr. ball. did you notice how he was dressed? mr. whaley. yes, sir. i didn't pay much attention to it right then. but it all came back when i really found out who i had. he was dressed in just ordinary work clothes. it wasn't khaki pants but they were khaki material, blue faded blue color, like a blue uniform made in khaki. then he had on a brown shirt with a little silverlike stripe on it and he had on some kind of jacket, i didn't notice very close but i think it was a work jacket that almost matched the pants. he, his shirt was open three buttons down here. he had on a t-shirt. you know, the shirt was open three buttons down there. mr. ball. now, what happened after that, will you tell us in your own words what he did? mr. whaley. well, on this which was the th trip when i picked up at the greyhound i marked it : to : . mr. ball. you say that can be off minutes? mr. whaley. that can be off either direction. mr. ball. anything up to minutes, you say? mr. whaley. yes, sir; i wrote that trip up the same time i wrote the one up from the continental bus station to the greyhound, i marked this : to : and started : to : . and the next one starts at : to : and it goes on all day long every minutes the time keeps pretty approximate. mr. ball. let's take the : trip, tell me about that, what the passenger said. mr. whaley. he said, "may i have the cab?" i said, "you sure can. get in." and instead of opening the back door he opened the front door, which is allowable there, and got in. mr. ball. got in the front door? mr. whaley. yes, sir. the front seat. and about that time an old lady, i think she was an old lady, i don't remember nothing but her sticking her head down past him in the door and said, "driver, will you call me a cab down here?" she had seen him get this cab and she wanted one, too, and he opened the door a little bit like he was going to get out and he said, "i will let you have this one," and she says, "no, the driver can call me one." so, i didn't call one because i knew before i could call one one would come around the block and keep it pretty well covered. mr. ball. is that what you said? mr. whaley. no, sir; that is not what i said, but that is the reason i didn't call one at the time and i asked him where he wanted to go. and he said, " north beckley." well, i started up, i started to that address, and the police cars, the sirens was going, running crisscrossing everywhere, just a big uproar in that end of town and i said, "what the hell. i wonder what the hell is the uproar?" and he never said anything. so i figured he was one of these people that don't like to talk so i never said any more to him. but when i got pretty close to block at neches and north beckley which is the block, he said, "this will do fine," and i pulled over to the curb right there. he gave me a dollar bill, the trip was cents. he gave me a dollar bill and didn't say anything, just got out and closed the door and walked around the front of the cab over to the other side of the street. of course, traffic was moving through there and i put it in gear and moved on, that is the last i saw of him. mr. ball. when you parked your car you parked on what street? mr. whaley. i wasn't parked, i was pulled to the curb on neches and north beckley. mr. ball. neches, corner of neches and north beckley? mr. whaley. which is the block. mr. ball. what direction was your car? mr. whaley. south. mr. ball. the cab was headed? mr. whaley. south. mr. ball. and it would be on the west side of the street? mr. whaley. parked, stopped on the west side of the intersection, yes, sir. mr. ball. when he got out of the cab did he go around in front of your cab? mr. whaley. he went around in front, yes, sir; crossed the street. mr. ball. across to the east side of the street? mr. whaley. yes, sir. mr. ball. did you see whether he walked south? mr. whaley. i didn't see whether he walked north or south from there. mr. ball. in other words, he walked east from your cab and that is the last time you saw him? mr. whaley. yes, sir. mr. ball. was there anything in particular about him beside his clothing that you could identify such as jewelry, bracelets? mr. whaley. yes, sir; he had on a bracelet of some type on his left arm. it looked like an identification bracelet. just shiny, you know, how you see anything shiny, an unusual watchband or something shiny, you notice things like that. mr. ball. i have a map of dallas here, which i would like to have marked as the commission's next exhibit which is exhibit no. . the chairman. it will be so marked. (the map referred to was marked commission's exhibit no. for identification.) mr. ball. i would like to offer into evidence exhibits nos. and that were marked yesterday. the chairman. they may be admitted. (commission exhibits nos. and , heretofore marked for identification, were received in evidence.) mr. ball. and being a form map of dallas can probably be offered in evidence at this time. it is going to be used to illustrate the witness' testimony. the chairman. that may be done. (commission exhibit no. , heretofore marked for identification was received in evidence.) mr. ball. there is a map here which is described as dallas street map, republic national bank of dallas, and in one corner of this map there is shown a small map of downtown dallas. will you point on the map there to the greyhound bus station? let's take the small map. it was on the corner of jackson? mr. whaley. and lamar. mr. ball. and lamar. mr. whaley. the northwest corner, greyhound bus station. mr. ball. you have seen this map before, have you not? mr. whaley. yes, sir; i am very familiar with that map. mr. ball. and let's take lamar, here is jackson. mr. whaley. lamar is down here, sir. mr. ball. this is jackson, this is the houston viaduct. mr. whaley. yes, sir. mr. ball. here is jackson, and lamar is right there. mr. whaley. well, the greyhound bus station is on the northwest corner. mr. ball. suppose we make an "x" there at jackson. mr. whaley. all right, sir. mr. ball. and lamar. that is where you picked your passenger up? mr. whaley. yes, sir. mr. ball. when you started out which direction did you go, and before you mark just take this blunt end and then we will mark it after you describe it on the map. now, the next street is austin, just to the west of lamar? mr. whaley. that is right. mr. ball. all right. mr. whaley. i turned to the left. mr. ball. all right. mr. whaley. i turned to the left off lamar onto jackson, went one block to austin, then from austin i turned to the left again and went one block over to wood street. now, the reason for that is if you catch this light right at lamar and jackson, this other light turns green as you make your turn here and the other one turns green as you make your turn at wood. you just move through traffic. that was my reason for making the turn. then i turned left on wood off austin and went straight on down wood to houston which is the street which we call the old viaduct. mr. ball. you call that the houston street viaduct? mr. whaley. yes. (at this point representative ford entered the hearing room.) mr. whaley. went across the viaduct to zangs, as soon as you get across the angle to the left, that is zangs boulevard. mr. ball. take the black pen and draw your course along this small map as far as you can go and we will go to the continuation of the map. now, can you tell us--did everybody see this course--now can you tell us where you were when the sirens were blowing and you saw police cars all around? mr. whaley. i was still at the greyhound, sir. mr. ball. you were still there? mr. whaley. they were there when i loaded. mr. ball. now, in the course of your travel down to the houston viaduct did you see any police cars? mr. whaley. oh, yes, sir; lots of them, what we call triangle, three-wheeled motorcycle, they all seemed to be converging on one spot. mr. ball. what spot? mr. whaley. well, it seemed to be the courthouse, that is what it seemed to me at that time. i didn't know what had happened. mr. ball. the courthouse is about a block from the texas state book depository? mr. whaley. you could throw a baseball from one building to the other. mr. ball. now we will turn to the large map and we will still use the--get downtown. here we are. will you use--lamar and jackson again. mr. whaley. this will be kind of ticklish because that is very small. mr. ball. that is right. mr. whaley. main, commerce, jackson, lamar. mr. ball. do the same thing. mr. whaley. to austin, to wood, to houston, to the viaduct, across the viaduct, let's see, colorado comes in off this, this is the zangs boulevard, the red line where it hits marcel is here, that is zangs boulevard. up past colorado, still going zangs here. mr. ball. you are going along zangs, will you go along---- mr. whaley. i am trying to find beckley, the green light changed from red to green on beckley, right here is an intersection; zangs boulevard goes on up, and beckley turns off. mr. ball. here is neches right here. mr. whaley. let me see where neches is, is that right? yes, that is it. this is the intersection right there. mr. ball. we put an "x" there. mr. whaley. that is where he got off. mr. ball. that is where you dropped your passenger, is that right? mr. whaley. that is--as far as i can see that is neches. mr. ball. that is neches, that is beckley. mr. whaley. yes, sir; that is right, because that is the block of north beckley. mr. ball. now, we will mark the beginning of your trip on the large map as "y", and where you dropped your passenger as an "x". mr. whaley. yes, sir. mr. ball. "y" is the corner of lamar and jackson, and "x" is the corner of neches and beckley. mr. whaley. yes, sir. mr. ball. o.k. can you tell me what distance that was? mr. whaley. well, it was cents on the meter, the meter starts off at cents, then it goes four-tenths of a mile and it clicks a dime which would be , then a dime every four-tenths of a mile after that and it was almost ready to click a $ . when it stopped, so i imagine that would be cents, would be eight-tenths of a mile and then after the first cents it runs cents a mile, because it gets a dime every four-tenths. mr. ball. so you had cents? mr. whaley. cents would be three, four-tenths, would be mile and two-tenths. would be one mile and six-tenths. would be one--would be miles. would be and four-tenths, almost ready to click. mr. ball. what do you give them for cents? mr. whaley. four-tenths of a mile. mr. ball. four-tenths of a mile? mr. whaley. it goes four-tenths of a mile. mr. ball. five clicks after the first? mr. whaley. cents. mr. ball. well, then, you ran about---- mr. whaley. about - / miles, sir. mr. ball. two and one-half miles? mr. whaley. approximately. mr. ball. two miles and four-tenths approximately. mr. whaley. yes, sir. mr. ball. can you give me any estimate of the time it took you to go that - / miles? mr. whaley. not actually, sir. i run it again with the policeman because the policeman was worried, he run the same trip and he couldn't come out the same time i did. but he was turning off of jackson and lamar when the light was wrong, and he was hitting a red light at wood--i mean at austin and jackson and he hit a red light at wood and austin, then he hit a red light at houston. where i wait to make my turn until the light is right just after it has been green, almost ready for it to come red, turn right then, then the other lights turn green just as fast as you get to them, go on right through, you save about minutes in traffic that way. that is where i got the minutes on him he never could make up. so i had to go back with him to make that trip to to show him i was right. mr. ball. how much time, in that experiment, when you hit the lights right, how long did it take you? mr. whaley. nine minutes. mr. ball. nine minutes? mr. whaley. nine minutes. representative ford. now on this particular trip with oswald, do you recall the lights being with you? mr. whaley. they were with me, sir; for i timed them that way before i took off. because i made that so much that i know the light system and how they are going to turn. representative ford. so this was a typical trip? mr. whaley. yes, sir. the chairman. the witness has been driving a taxicab in dallas for years. mr. whaley. thirty-seven, sir. the chairman. thirty-seven. mr. whaley. you name an intersection in the city of dallas and i will tell you what is on all four corners. mr. ball. did you stop and let your passenger out on this run on the north or south side of the intersection? mr. whaley. on the north side, sir. mr. ball. north side? mr. whaley. yes. mr. ball. that would be---- mr. whaley. northwest corner. mr. ball. northwest corner of neches and beckley? mr. whaley. northwest corner of neches and beckley. mr. ball. i have some clothing here. commission exhibit no. , does that look like the shirt? mr. whaley. that is the shirt, sir, it has my initials on it. mr. ball. in other words, this is the shirt the man had on? mr. whaley. yes, sir; that is the same one the fbi man had me identify. mr. ball. this is the shirt the man had on who took your car at lamar and jackson? mr. whaley. as near as i can recollect as i told him. i said that is the shirt he had on because it had a kind of little stripe in it, light-colored stripe. i noticed that. mr. ball. here are two pair of pants, commission exhibit no. and commission exhibit no. . does it look anything like that? mr. whaley. i don't think i can identify the pants except they were the same color as that, sir. mr. ball. which color? mr. whaley. more like this lighter color, at least they were cleaner or something. mr. ball. that is ? mr. whaley. yes, sir. mr. ball. but you are not sure about that? mr. whaley. i am not sure about the pants. i wouldn't be sure of the shirt if it hadn't had that light stripe in it. i just noticed that. mr. ball. here is commission no. which is a gray jacket with zipper. mr. whaley. i think that is the jacket he had on when he rode with me in the cab. mr. ball. look something like it? and here is commission exhibit no. , does this look like anything he had on? mr. whaley. he had this one on or the other one. mr. ball. that is right. mr. whaley. that is what i told you i noticed. i told you about the shirt being open, he had on the two jackets with the open shirt. mr. ball. wait a minute, we have got the shirt which you have identified as the rust brown shirt with the gold stripe in it. mr. whaley. yes, sir. mr. ball. you said that a jacket---- mr. whaley. that jacket now it might have been clean, but the jacket he had on looked more the color, you know like a uniform set, but he had this coat here on over that other jacket, i am sure, sir. mr. ball. this is the blue-gray jacket, heavy blue-gray jacket. mr. whaley. yes, sir. mr. ball. later that day did you--were you called down to the police department? mr. whaley. no, sir. mr. ball. were you the next day? mr. whaley. no, sir; they came and got me, sir, the next day after i told my superior when i saw in the paper his picture, i told my superiors that that had been my passenger that day at noon. they called up the police and they came up and got me. mr. ball. when you saw in the newspaper the picture of the man? mr. whaley. yes, sir. mr. ball. you went to your superior and told him you thought he was your passenger? mr. whaley. yes, sir. mr. ball. did the dallas police come out to see you? mr. whaley. yes, sir. mr. ball. or fbi agents? mr. whaley. the dallas police came down and took me down and the fbi was waiting there. mr. ball. before they brought you down did they show you a picture? mr. whaley. no, sir. mr. ball. they didn't? mr. whaley. no, sir. mr. ball. they brought you down to the dallas police station? mr. whaley. yes, sir. mr. ball. what did you do there? mr. whaley. well, i tried to get by the reporters, stepping over television cables and you couldn't hardly get by, they would grab you and wanted to know what you were doing down here, even with the detectives one in front and one behind you. then they took me in an office there and i think bill alexander, the assistant district attorney, two or three, i was introduced to two or three who were fbi men and they wanted my deposition of what happened. so, i told them to the best of my ability. then they took me down in their room where they have their show-ups, and all, and me and this other taxi driver who was with me, sir, we sat in the room awhile and directly they brought in six men, young teenagers, and they all were handcuffed together. well, they wanted me to pick out my passenger. at that time he had on a pair of black pants and white t-shirt, that is all he had on. but you could have picked him out without identifying him by just listening to him because he was bawling out the policeman, telling them it wasn't right to put him in line with these teen-agers and all of that and they asked me which one and i told them. it was him all right, the same man. mr. ball. they had him in line with men much younger? mr. whaley. with five others. mr. ball. men much younger? mr. whaley. not much younger, but just young kids they might have got them in jail. mr. ball. did he look older than those other boys? mr. whaley. yes. mr. ball. and he was talking, was he? mr. whaley. he showed no respect for the policemen, he told them what he thought about them. they knew what they were doing and they were trying to railroad him and he wanted his lawyer. mr. ball. did that aid you in the identification of the man? mr. whaley. no, sir; it wouldn't have at all, except that i said anybody who wasn't sure could have picked out the right one just for that. it didn't aid me because i knew he was the right one as soon as i saw him. mr. ball. you don't think that that in any way influenced your identification? mr. whaley. no, sir; it did not. when you drive a taxi, sir, as long as i have, you can almost look at a man, in fact, you have to, to be able to tell whether you can trust or whether you can't trust him, what he is. now, like you got in my taxicab and i looked you over and you told me just wait for me here and went in the building, well, i will have to know whether i could just say, "ok, sir." or say, "will you leave me a $ bill, sir?" when you drive a taxi that long you learn to judge people and what i actually thought of the man when he got in was that he was a wino who had been off his bottle for about two days, that is the way he looked, sir, that was my opinion of him. mr. ball. what was there about his appearance that gave you that impression? hair mussed? mr. whaley. just the slow way he walked up. he didn't talk. he wasn't in any hurry. he wasn't nervous or anything. mr. ball. he didn't run? mr. whaley. no, sir. mr. ball. did he look dirty? mr. whaley. he looked like his clothes had been slept in, sir, but he wasn't actually dirty. the t-shirt was a little soiled around the collar but the bottom part of it was white. you have to know those winos, or they will get in and ride with you and there isn't nothing you can do but call the police, the city gets the fine and you get nothing. mr. ball. who was the other cab driver? mr. whaley. i don't know his name, sir. he worked for the same company but he works out of the oak cliff branch. they say he was the one who saw him kill the policeman, the one who used the policeman's microphone. mr. ball. is that mr. scoggins? mr. whaley. what is his name? mr. ball. scoggins. mr. whaley. it could have been, sir. mr. ball. you don't know him? mr. whaley. i just know he drives taxi . he works out of oak cliff branch. mr. ball. i would like to have a copy of the manifest temporarily marked . mr. whaley. you may have it, sir. mr. ball. commission , and offer it into evidence and ask leave to submit the original, if it is brought in, when it is brought here by the fbi. the chairman. yes, it may be admitted. (the manifest referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification and received in evidence.) mr. ball. this will be . could we excuse mr. whaley now? there are two pieces of evidence to be here and they are not here. the chairman. excuse him and we will take the other witness. mr. ball. we will excuse him and take the other witness. the chairman. mr. whaley, will you wait outside until we get the other exhibits and we will finish with you very shortly. mr. mcwatters, would you be seated please. mr. mcwatters. yes, sir. the chairman. the commission is meeting today to take further testimony concerning the events surrounding the assassination of president kennedy, and it is our understanding that you have some information that would bear on that subject, and that is the reason for our asking you to come here and testify. would you raise your right hand to be sworn please. do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before this commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. mcwatters. i do. testimony of cecil j. mcwatters the chairman. would you be seated please, and mr. ball will conduct the interrogation. mr. ball. mr. mcwatters. mr. mcwatters. yes, sir. mr. ball. what is your business? mr. mcwatters. i am a bus driver. mr. ball. how long have you been a bus driver? mr. mcwatters. let's see, this coming september will be years. mr. ball. whom do you work for? mr. mcwatters. the dallas transit company. mr. ball. how long have you worked for the dallas transit company? mr. mcwatters. it will be years in september, i believe. mr. ball. where do you live? mr. mcwatters. blyth drive, dallas, tex. mr. ball. on november , , were you on duty as a driver? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir. mr. ball. what kind of a bus were you driving? mr. mcwatters. well, i was driving a -passenger, let's see, it is a -passenger city bus made by white, i believe is the maker of the bus. mr. ball. what hours of work were you assigned that day? mr. mcwatters. well, i was assigned that day on the particular run from : until : . mr. ball. what was your run? mr. mcwatters. do you mean the name of the run? mr. ball. what course did you take, what part of dallas did you drive in. mr. mcwatters. well, i went from---- mr. ball. describe it generally, you don't need to go into any detail. mr. mcwatters. i would say from northeast dallas in the lakewood addition of dallas to the oak cliff addition of dallas, which is, would be southwest. mr. ball. would that be northeast to southwest? mr. mcwatters. that is right. mr. ball. there is a place near the downtown area of dallas where you timed your run, wasn't it? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir; i have after i get into town, when i get into the downtown part of it, now st. paul street is my official time point going in, where they have a supervisor that stays at this checkpoint there, to check all incoming vehicles. mr. ball. you would be coming in from northeast dallas at that time? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir; i am coming in from the lakewood addition of dallas, which i came in on. the main thoroughfare is gaston avenue. mr. ball. and you got to the intersection of what street and st. paul when you were timed by your dispatcher? mr. mcwatters. that is elm, elm street. mr. ball. elm and st. paul? mr. mcwatters. elm and st. paul. mr. ball. if you are ahead of time do you stop there until you are assigned a time to get in? mr. mcwatters. well, sir; no sir; you don't--a man he has his watch and schedule. if you are ahead of your schedule he will come out and stop you, in other words, and ask you if your watch is right or what is it, you know, the idea of you being there. there is no excuse, you know for a man being ahead of his schedule. mr. ball. if you are ahead of your schedule does he stop you there until you leave? mr. mcwatters. yes, that is right. mr. ball. what time are you due, according to your schedule, to leave the corner of st. paul and elm? mr. mcwatters. : . mr. ball. what time did you leave there that day? mr. mcwatters. well, i left there that day on time because coming into town that day, i guess everybody done went to, down to, see the parade, i didn't have over four or five passengers coming into downtown. mr. ball. were you ahead of your schedule? mr. mcwatters. well, i stopped about a block before--now, just a block before we get to st. paul, there is a big theater there, and it has all loading zones, no parking there and a lot of times if we are a minute or two ahead of our schedule when we pull in in front of this theater before we get there in time, in other words, we kill a minute. mr. ball. what did you do this day? mr. mcwatters. well, i was a little ahead of my schedule and i killed about a minute, i guess, before i went to cross st. paul street. mr. ball. after your dispatcher checked you in what time did you leave that corner of st. paul and elm? mr. mcwatters. well, the best i can remember i don't recall even picking up a passenger there. i think i discharged one lady passenger there on that, to the best i can recall, because i remember that i had, when i crossed field street, i think i had five passengers on my bus. mr. ball. well then, back to the question, what time did you leave that day, leave elm and st. paul? mr. mcwatters. well, i would have to say i left there around, in other words, : because i know i was on good time when i come in there. mr. ball. and you think you left at the time you were supposed to leave? mr. mcwatters. well, i am almost positive i did, because, as i say, we generally come in on schedules on good time because from that street on is where we generally--for the next seven or eight blocks--is where we get all of our passengers going through the downtown area. mr. ball. had you heard any sirens before you got to st. paul and elm? mr. mcwatters. no, sir. mr. ball. do you know if your dispatcher keeps a written record? mr. mcwatters. the only way he keeps a written record is if you are ahead of your schedule. he has a little pad, and if a man is ahead of his schedule, in other words, he writes, of course, we all go by badge numbers, in other words, he would write your badge number, your bus number, and if you was ahead of schedule he would write how much ahead of schedule you were, and---- mr. ball. do you think he did anything, did he write anything up on you on that day? mr. mcwatters. no, sir; the guy that we have down there now, if you are ahead of schedule he will come out, in other words, because he stands on the corner all the time, and if you are a minute or two ahead of your schedule he will come out and if nothing else, converse with you for a minute or two to see that you leave it on time and very seldom, i mean, if ever--of course, a report goes in on you, it goes against your record. mr. ball. in other words, if he did make a record it would be by way of a reprimand to you? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir. mr. ball. as you went on down elm you left your post at st. paul and elm, did you hear any sirens? mr. mcwatters. no, sir. mr. ball. did you pick up any passengers? mr. mcwatters. i picked up within a period of from the time i picked up two or three passengers, i can't recall just exactly which stop. i have after i leave st. paul street, i have ervay street and akard street, and field street which would be three stops where i can't recall that, exactly where i discharged or picked up passengers, because i had the few passengers that i had which i came into town with. mr. ball. well then, do you remember picking up a passenger at a place other than at a bus stop as you went down elm? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir. as i left field street, i pulled out into the, in other words, the first lane of traffic and traffic was beginning to back up then; in other words, it was blocked further down the street, and after i pulled out in it for a short distance there i come to a complete stop, and when i did, someone come up and beat on the door of the bus, and that is about even with griffin street. in other words, it is a street that dead ends into elm street which there is no bus stop at this street, because i stopped across field street in the middle of the intersection and it is just a short distance onto griffin street, and that is when someone, a man, came up and knocked on the door of the bus, and i opened the door of the bus and he got on. mr. ball. you were beyond field and before you got to griffin? mr. mcwatters. that is right. it was along about even with griffin street before i was stopped in the traffic. mr. ball. and that is about seven or eight blocks from the texas book depository building, isn't it? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir. it would be seven, i would say that is seven, it would be about seven blocks. mr. ball. from there? mr. mcwatters. from there, yes, sir. mr. ball. what did the man look like who knocked on your door and got on your bus? mr. mcwatters. well, i didn't pay any particular attention to him. he was to me just dressed in what i would call work clothes, just some type of little old jacket on, and i didn't pay any particular attention to the man when he got on. mr. ball. paid his fare, did he? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir; he just paid his fare and sat down on the second cross seat on the right. mr. ball. do you remember whether or not you gave him a transfer? mr. mcwatters. not when he got on; no, sir. mr. ball. you didn't. did you ever give him a transfer? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir; i gave him one about two blocks from where he got on. mr. ball. did he ask you for a transfer? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir. mr. ball. do you remember what he said to you when he asked you for the transfer? mr. mcwatters. well, the reason i recall the incident, i had--there was a lady that when i stopped in this traffic, there was a lady who had a suitcase and she said, "i have got to make a o'clock train at union station," and she said, "i don't believe--from the looks of this traffic you are going to be held up." she said, "would you give me a transfer and i am going to walk on down," which is about from where i was at that time about or blocks to union station and she asked me if i would give her a transfer in case i did get through the traffic if i would pick her up on the way. so, i said, "i sure will." so i gave her a transfer and opened the door and as she was going out the gentleman i had picked up about blocks asked for a transfer and got off at the same place in the middle of the block where the lady did. mr. ball. where was that near, what intersection? mr. mcwatters. it was the intersection near lamar street, it was near poydras and lamar street. it is a short block, but the main intersection there is lamar street. mr. ball. he had been on the bus about blocks? mr. mcwatters. about blocks; yes, sir. mr. ball. up to that time had you heard any sirens? mr. mcwatters. not up until--now just about the time that, let's see, that is when i left griffin, right about the time this gentleman got on the bus the traffic was starting and that was about the first that i can recall of hearing the sirens, but when, in other words, when they started it seemed to me like they was coming from all over town. mr. ball. did you have a radio in your bus? mr. mcwatters. no, sir. mr. ball. did you hear a radio from nearby cars announcing anything about the president's assassination? mr. mcwatters. well, there was cars that were stopped alongside of the bus and i think someone raised the window but i couldn't hear. i never did hear anything outside of the---- mr. ball. where were you when you first heard the president had been shot? mr. mcwatters. well, i was sitting in the bus, there was some gentleman in front of me in a car, and he came back and walked up to the bus and i opened the door and he said, "i have heard over my radio in my car that the president has been--" i believe he used the word--"has been shot." mr. ball. is that when you were stalled in traffic? mr. mcwatters. that is right. that is when i was stalled right there. mr. ball. was that before or after the man got off the bus that asked for the transfer? mr. mcwatters. that was before. in other words, at that time no one had gotten off the bus. mr. ball. what was your location then, near what street? mr. mcwatters. between poydras and lamar, in other words, because i stayed stopped there for, i guess oh, or minutes anyway before i made any progress at that one stop right there and that is where the gentleman got off the bus. in fact, i was talking to the man, the man that come out of the car; in other words, he just stepped up in the door of the bus, and was telling me that what he had heard over his radio and that is when the lady who was standing there decided she would walk and when the other gentleman decided he would also get off at that point. mr. ball. at that point. what course did you take after that? mr. mcwatters. well, i still was going west, in other words, in the same direction, going west, in other words, towards houston street. in other words, i went there before i changed my course which was about, i would say, three or four blocks. when i got to houston street, in other words, i turned to the left, which would be south---- mr. ball. you went by the texas school book depository building? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir; i turned at the corner of elm street and houston which this book store is on the opposite corner from where i changed course there. mr. ball. was traffic still heavy along there? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir; the traffic was still tied up, but the police, they opened up a lane there, they had so many buses and everything that was tied up, they opened up, moved traffic around that they run quite a few of these buses through there. in other words, from two blocks on this side of where the incident happened they had, in other words, they was turning all the traffic to the right and to the left, in other words, north and south. mr. ball. you went on down to houston viaduct then? mr. mcwatters. yes, i turned after they finally let--they weren't letting any cars through at that time but they just run a bunch of those buses through there. mr. ball. is there a bus stop in front of the texas school book depository building? mr. mcwatters. no, sir. mr. ball, where do you stop for that intersection? mr. mcwatters. well, you stop, in other words, on this side of the street. mr. ball. you stop on the south side of, the southeast corner of the intersection? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir. in other words, like you would be going, direct south towards the building, the bus stop is on this corner over here on this side. mr. ball. you mean the corner of houston and elm? mr. mcwatters. that is right. mr. ball. which corner, north, south, east, west? mr. mcwatters. well, it would be on the north. mr. ball. north. mr. mcwatters. on the north. mr. ball. here is a map and maybe you can show us where the bus stop is. this is exhibit no. . mr. mcwatters. in other words, this is south, in other words. mr. ball. this is west. you are going west on elm. mr. mcwatters. in other words, i am going--right here is where the police had all traffic, they wasn't allowing anything to go any further than market street here. in other words, all the traffic there they were moving was turning either to the right or left, on market street. but after they held us up there so long, of course, they run these buses in this right lane here and they did open up and let a bunch of these buses go right on down here to houston, of course, a lot of them go straight on and a lot of them turn left to houston street, a lot of them go under the underpass here. mr. ball. wait a minute, you turned to the left? mr. mcwatters. i turned to the left. mr. ball. on houston? mr. mcwatters. in other words, my last stop, in other words at this corner right here on record street, all buses turning to the left have to stop at this corner right here. mr. ball. at record and elm? mr. mcwatters. at record and elm. mr. ball. do you have a bus stop at houston and elm? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir; there is a bus stop there for the buses that go on under the underpass. mr. ball. is there a bus stop for the buses that go south on houston? mr. mcwatters. no, sir; all the buses, we have to get in, this is a one-way street and you have to get over in this lane here. mr. ball. by the lane you mean the extreme left lane? mr. mcwatters. the extreme left lane to make---- mr. ball. to make the left turn south on houston street? mr. mcwatters. yes. mr. ball. and your last bus stop, as you go west on elm and before you turn is the northeast corner of record and elm? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir; that is correct. mr. ball. you went on over to houston viaduct into the oak cliff section, didn't you? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir; to the oak cliff section. mr. ball. and there was some conversation occurred on that bus that you told the fbi officers about? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir. mr. ball. tell us what that was? mr. mcwatters. well, there was a teenage boy, i would say or years of age, who was sitting to my right on the first cross seat and me and him had, we had conversationed a little while we was tied up in the traffic, you know, of the fact of we wondered where all, what all the excitement was due to the fact of the sirens and others, and after i turned on houston street i said to him and i made the remark, i wonder where the president was shot, and i believe he made the remark that it was probably in the head if he was in a convertible or something to that effect. i don't remember just exactly the way we worded it or what it was, but it was a conversation about the president, in other words, to where he was shot. in other words, and he made the remark or something, he was probably shot in the head, if he was sitting in a convertible or to that effect. i really don't know just exactly at that time. just like i say i never thought anything about it. mr. ball. didn't some lady say something? mr. mcwatters. well, yes, sir. now, as we got on out on marsalis, along about it was either edgemont or vermont, i believe it was vermont street, there was a lady who was fixing to cross the intersection and i stopped and asked her if she was going to catch the bus into town from the opposite direction, and she said that she was and i told her that we was off schedule, that the other bus had done went into town, and i asked her did she care to just ride on to the end of the line and come back and she wouldn't have to stand there and wait, and she was getting on, and i asked her had she heard the news of the president being shot, at the time that was all i knew about it, and she said, "no, what are you--you are just kidding me." i said, "no, i really am not kidding you." i said, "it is the truth from all the reliable sources that we have come in contact with," and this teenage boy sitting on the side, i said "well, now, if you think i am kidding you," i said, "ask this gentleman sitting over here," and he kind of, i don't know whether it was a grinning or smile or whatever expression it was, and she said, "i know you are kidding now, because he laughed or grinned or made some remark to that effect." and i just told her no it wasn't no kidding matter, but that was part of the conversation that was said at that time. mr. ball. was this teenage boy--do you know where this teenage boy got on the bus? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir; he got on at between, he got on at the stop, in other words, i stopped in front of the majestic theater which is a block before i get to st. paul; in other words, it is a middle of the stop, block stop, in other words. we pull in and stop in the center of the block, and my next stop would be st. paul; in other words, that is where the teenage boy got on. mr. ball. he was on the bus when this man knocked on the door of your bus and got on? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir; he was. mr. ball. he was on the bus when the man asked for the transfer and got off? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir. that is right. mr. ball. were you later called down to the--did the teenage boy ask for any transfer? mr. mcwatters. no, sir. mr. ball. now, you were called down to the dallas police department later, weren't you? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir. mr. ball. what day was it? mr. mcwatters. it was on the same day, the d. mr. ball. d. do you know how they happened to get in touch with you, did you notify them that you---- mr. mcwatters. no, sir; i didn't know anything to that effect. mr. ball. did they come out and get you? mr. mcwatters. they come out and---- mr. ball. what did they ask you? mr. mcwatters. well, they stopped me; it was, i would say around : or somewhere around : or : that afternoon. mr. ball. you were still on duty, were you? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir. mr. ball. still on your bus? mr. mcwatters. i was on duty but i was on a different line and a different bus. mr. ball. what did they ask you when they came out? mr. mcwatters. well, they stopped me right by the city hall there when i come by there and they wanted me to come in, they wanted to ask me some questions. and i don't know what it was about or anything until i got in there and they told me what happened. mr. ball. what did they tell you? mr. mcwatters. well, they told me that they had a transfer that i had issued that was cut for lamar street at o'clock, and they wanted to know if i knew anything about it. and i, after i looked at the transfer and my punch, i said yes, that is the transfer i issued because it had my punch mark on it. mr. ball. did your punch mark have a distinctive mark? mr. mcwatters. it had a distinctive mark and it is registered, in other words, all the drivers, every driver has a different punch mark. mr. ball. what makes it different? mr. mcwatters. well, it is, it would be, the symbol of it or angle, in other words, every one; it is different, in other words. mr. ball. you have a punch there? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir; i have the punch right here. mr. ball. is that the punch that you used? mr. mcwatters. that is the punch i used. mr. ball. will you punch a piece of paper and show us? mr. mcwatters. in other words, that is the type of punch that this one makes right here, in other words. mr. ball. that is a different type of punch than any other driver has? mr. mcwatters. any driver, in other words. mr. ball. on any bus in dallas? mr. mcwatters. in other words, the superintendent has a list, in other words, it would be just like this and every man has a punch and he has his name, and everything. in other words, if anyone calls in about a transfer or anything, i mean brings one in he can look right down the list by the punch mark and tell whose punch it is, and who it is registered to. mr. ball. now, the sample of your punch there has been on a piece of paper and we would like to have it marked as at this time. (the paper referred to was marked commission exhibit no. and received in evidence.) mr. ball. if you punched, made a punch mark, on a transfer, did you designate the time of the punch or the place of the punch? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir; i designate the time of the--we have one general transfer point. in other words, lamar street is what we call our general transfer point in which all transfers are cut within the quarter of the hour in which you are supposed to be there. in other words, if you was to arrive there at, say, : or in that vicinity, you always give the passenger the minutes, in other words, within the hour of the transfer. in other words, is the way they have you to cut your transfers across your cutter. in other words, it is just a little thing that you raise up and down and you can adjust them, and right here is a book of them in which you can see the time. it is one, in other words, : , : , and : , and we set them in other words, if you wanted at : , o'clock would be across this direction. if you wanted it : you would cut across this direction or if you wanted it : you would cut it in this direction. in other words, : , -: and -: . in other words, the minutes is always given at the time, at the general transfer point. representative ford. it is : now. how would you cut it right now? mr. mcwatters. at : . representative ford. why don't you cut one? mr. mcwatters. i have a regular cutter, you see; let's see if he can get something that would--in other words, : , i will just cut it, in other words, cut across there, and cut it, in other words, at : , in other words, it would show at : . (at this point, senator cooper entered the hearing room.) representative ford. where do you put your own identification? mr. mcwatters. on here. well, if it is in the morning or in the afternoon, here is your a.m., or your p.m. in other words, it is before : , in other words, we consider up to : a.m., in other words, that is the way they are. in other words, i would punch it in the a.m. side of it, and if it was in the afternoon, in other words, after that, it would be a p.m. transfer, and whatever line that you are working has the name on it right here. in other words, at that time that transfer i had punched was punched a p.m. lakewood, in other words, because i was coming from the lakewood addition is the way that was punched on the transfer. mr. ball. well now, do you punch the transfer when the passenger asks for it? mr. mcwatters. no. no, sir; in other words, when you leave this, you are inbound when you are going into town or when you are going, in other words, out of town, in other words. i was coming in, in other words, when i got in lakewood addition i set my transfers for downtown. mr. ball. for downtown and you set them for what time? mr. mcwatters. i set them for o'clock. mr. ball. you set them for o'clock? mr. mcwatters. o'clock. mr. ball. when you reached your end of the run in northeast dallas then you set your transfers for o'clock, did you? mr. mcwatters. that is right, when i was coming back in. mr. ball. and when you gave this transfer near poydras and elm---- mr. mcwatters. yes, sir. mr. ball. did you pull out a transfer that had already been set for o'clock time? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir. in other words, i just reached up on my cutter and just tore off one which is already punched. mr. ball. then did you punch it again or was it already punched? mr. mcwatters. it was already punched. mr. ball. and you had punched it at the end of the line? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir. mr. ball. so all you had to do is pull the transfer off of the pile of transfers and hand it to the man? mr. mcwatters. that is correct. mr. ball. and you had anticipated at the end of the line that when you got to about this point it would be a o'clock transfer, is that correct? mr. mcwatters. well, that is right. in other words, there is enough time on it, just like i say, within a quarter of an hour, but---- mr. ball. when you got to the police station that day did they show you a transfer? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir. mr. ball. what did you tell them about the transfer? mr. mcwatters. well, i recognized the transfer as being the transfer that i had issued. mr. ball. how did you recognize it? mr. mcwatters. by my punch mark on it. mr. ball. and what about the line? mr. mcwatters. the line? mr. ball. lakewood. mr. mcwatters. the lakewood punch on it, and where it was punched and lakewood with my punch mark on it. mr. ball. were you able to identify it any further as a particular transfer you had given to any particular passenger? mr. mcwatters. no, sir. only---- mr. ball. go ahead. mr. mcwatters. i only gave two transfers going through town on that trip and that was at the one stop of where i gave the lady and the gentleman that got off the bus, i issued two transfers. but that was the only two transfers that were issued. mr. ball. did you tell the police in dallas that? mr. mcwatters. i don't remember whether i did or not. mr. ball. but you do remember it now? mr. mcwatters. yes. (at this point chief justice warren left the hearing room.) mr. ball. all right. now, what else did you do that day? mr. mcwatters. well, let's see---- mr. ball. did they show you any prisoner? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir; when they stopped me over there and took me into the police department there, like i say, it was around : or : , they took me down before the lineup there and asked me if i could identify anyone in that lineup as getting on my bus that day. mr. ball. did they take you down and show you a lineup? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir. mr. ball. you sat there with police officers and they brought men in there? mr. mcwatters. they brought four men out. in other words, four men under the lights; in other words, they was all---- mr. ball. all the same age? mr. mcwatters. no, sir; they were different ages, different sizes and different heights. and they asked me if i could identify any man in particular there, and i told them that i couldn't identify any man in particular, but there was one man there that was about the size of the man. now, i was referring back, after they done showed me this transfer at that time and i knew which trip, that i went through town on at that time, in other words, on the lakewood trip and just like i recalled, i only put out two transfers and i told them that there was one man in the lineup was about the size and the height and complexion of a man that got on my bus, but as far as positively identifying the man i could not do it. mr. ball. what was the size and the height and complexion of the man that knocked on the window of this bus? mr. mcwatters. well, i would say, just like i told the police, to me he was just a medium-sized man. to me he was, i would say, not, i wouldn't call him--just of average weight, and i would say a light-complected, to the best of my knowledge. mr. ball. when you say "average weight" what do you mean? mr. mcwatters. i figured just like i saw, the man, he looked like to me the best way i can describe him would be or pounds. mr. ball. what about height? mr. mcwatters. well, just like i told them, it looked like to me he would probably be five-seven or five-eight, in that vicinity. mr. ball. anyway, you were not able to identify any man in the lineup as the passenger? mr. mcwatters. no, sir. mr. ball. as the passenger who had gotten on? mr. mcwatters. no, sir. mr. ball. you said there was one man who closely resembled in height, weight and color? mr. mcwatters. that is right. mr. ball. do you know who that was? mr. mcwatters. just like i told them, i didn't know who was who or anything. mr. ball. did you ever learn who that person was? mr. mcwatters. well, i don't know whether that was really the man or not, i don't know. mr. ball. i see. now, i have a map here. (discussion off the record.) representative ford. all right, proceed. mr. ball. you remember you told us about the man that knocked on the window of the door of your bus just before you got to griffin, wasn't it? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir; along about the vicinity of griffin street, it comes to. mr. ball. you let him on the bus, and he paid his fare, how much is that fare? mr. mcwatters. it is cents. mr. ball. cents, and you went about down almost to poydras. mr. mcwatters. almost, between poydras and lamar. mr. ball. between poydras and lamar, closer to lamar than to poydras? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir. mr. ball. and a man got on. was it the same man? mr. mcwatters. that was the same man who got on the bus that i picked up, in other words. mr. ball. and the man you gave the transfer to? mr. mcwatters. the man i gave the transfer to when the woman--in other words, when the man that got on griffin street there got off at the same place she did. mr. ball. and he was only on the bus about blocks? mr. mcwatters. two blocks was the only distance. mr. ball. how long did it take you to go those blocks? mr. mcwatters. now, he paid as far as from st. paul street. i made--there wasn't any traffic holding me up whatsoever, i come on right down to where i picked the man up there, in other words, about field, and that is where the traffic was starting to back up to. so the best of my knowledge i would say it took me or minutes to get down there, so i will just have to say it was in the vicinity of around : . mr. ball. in other words, how long was the man on your bus, the man who got on, about griffin and got off and you gave him the transfer, approximately? mr. mcwatters. well, he got on, and when he got on, i made that one block, and then the other, well, i would be safe in saying he wasn't on there minutes. mr. ball. and you think he got off or on around : ? mr. mcwatters. : that is the best. mr. ball. what time did you say he got on approximately? mr. mcwatters. on the bus? mr. ball. yes. mr. mcwatters. well, i would say in the vicinity from where i left up there it would be probably it took me, i would say, minutes to come, let's see, it would be ervay, akard and field, that is about blocks there where i left my time point which i would say just a rough estimation it would be with no traffic would be or minutes, i would say minutes anyway. so, it must have been somewheres : or--so. mr. ball. when he got on the bus? mr. mcwatters. : . mr. ball. and then he was on the bus about how many minutes? mr. mcwatters. well, just like i say he wasn't on the bus over or minutes, in other words, just made that block there, and in other words, when the traffic stopped, well, that is when he got off the bus. representative ford. during the time he was on the bus this man rapped at your door or was your door open, and spoke up and said that the president had been shot? mr. mcwatters. he was on the bus, you mean was the door open? representative ford. no. you previously testified that while you were stalled or jammed up in the traffic---- mr. mcwatters. yes, sir. representative ford. a man came to the door of the bus and indicated by word of mouth---- mr. mcwatters. yes, sir. representative ford. that the president had been shot. mr. mcwatters. yes, sir. representative ford. now, was the man to whom you issued the transfer on the bus at that time? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir. representative ford. now, the man who spoke up and said that the president had been shot, how loudly did he say that? mr. mcwatters. well, he said it loud enough that i guess everybody on the bus heard him when he stepped up in the bus. representative ford. in other words, that would be your best impression or best recollection that whoever said this, that the president had been shot, said it loudly enough for not only you but the other bus passengers to hear it? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir. because he stepped up in the bus and when he made the statement in other words, he said that the president had been shot, because i am pretty sure everybody--he said it to the fact. i think that everybody, there might have been some, if there was anybody in the extreme back of the bus, might not have heard it, but i think anyone who was near the front part of the bus could have. representative ford. but at that time when this man made this statement, there was a teenager sitting in the first cross seat on the right-hand side of the bus? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir. representative ford. and the man who had gotten on the bus to whom you later issued the transfer, was sitting in the second? mr. mcwatters. in the second seat. representative ford. what is the distance from the door of the bus where the man was standing who made this statement to the second cross seat? mr. mcwatters. well, i would say, let's see, it would be i would say or feet. representative ford. was he sitting alone in the second cross seat? mr. mcwatters. he was sitting alone. representative ford. did you notice any reaction on the part of any of your passengers to this comment by this man who made this statement? mr. mcwatters. well, the only reaction that i knew is when he got up and said that, well, that is when the lady got off first, which she jumped up and got her suitcase and said, in other words, made a remark to something. "i am afraid you are going to be tied up here in this traffic and i want to get off." representative ford. where was this lady sitting who got up and asked for this transfer? mr. mcwatters. now, this lady was sitting behind me, in other words, i am the driver. representative ford. on the left-hand side of the bus looking forward? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir; in other words, it is a cross seat. i mean a side seat, in other words, like the driver sitting here, the first seat is the one that runs parallel with the bus, in other words. representative ford. well now, the seat in which the lady was sitting would be parallel to the second cross seat on the other side of the bus? mr. mcwatters. yes, in other words---- representative ford. it would be on the same line? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir. representative ford. the first seat would be ahead--the first seat on the right-hand side of the bus would be ahead of the seat where the lady was sitting? mr. mcwatters. no, you mean the lady, i am referring to who got off first? representative ford. yes. mr. mcwatters. no, the lady--i was sitting in the driver's seat, she was sitting right behind me, in other words, facing out his way. representative ford. but she obviously heard what the man said about the president being shot? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir. representative ford. there is no doubt in your mind she heard that? mr. mcwatters. i wouldn't think so because when she got up and stated she wanted to get off---- representative ford. was she any further from the man who made this statement about the president being shot than the man who was sitting in the second cross seat? mr. mcwatters. she was closer to the man actually than the man that got off with her was. representative ford. how many feet or how much difference? mr. mcwatters. well, the lady in other words, from the door here, it is just two cross seats, and two seats where you sit sideways and then the two seats in which he would be back here. representative ford. could you diagram that as best as you can? mr. belin. congressman, we have a diagram. we have a picture of the side of the bus. mr. mcwatters. right here. representative ford. sit down. mr. mcwatters. you can see it from this point right here, in other words. you see this cross seat, in other words, these first two right here, the driver's seat, you see the first two seats there, in other words. representative ford. could you sit down and mark it? mr. mcwatters. this is the inside, let's see, this is the driver right here. here is your cross seat right here. here, about back here, is where the lady got off who was sitting on this seat. representative ford. will you mark that with an "l"? mr. mcwatters. in other words, right here. representative ford. where was the man in the first cross seat sitting? mr. mcwatters. right here is the first. right here is where the man that was sitting, got off, in this seat right here, i believe it is. representative ford. will you mark that "m" where the man who was sitting also got off who got the transfer? mr. ball. maybe we had better use a black pen that will show better on that glazed surface. representative ford. this is where the man was sitting who you issued the transfer to at the same time the lady was issued the transfer? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir. representative ford. and the teenager was sitting in what seat? mr. mcwatters. right here. representative ford. will you mark that "o"? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir. representative ford. where was the man standing who came to the bus and said the president had been shot? mr. mcwatters. right here. representative ford. on the step? mr. mcwatters. on the step. i guess, i presume this would be the second step there. to the best of my recollection he stepped up on the first step. representative ford. mark that "p." mr. mcwatters. "p." representative ford. now, after the man who was standing at "p" said the president was shot, what did the lady do who was sitting in "l"? mr. mcwatters. well, the lady, she had a suitcase sitting right there beside me and she left. when the lady got up and said she would like to get off the bus, and that she was going to walk to the union station and asked me if i would give her a transfer in case that i caught up with her, and asked me if i would pick her up. representative ford. you gave her a transfer? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir. representative ford. what happened? mr. mcwatters. she got off and by the time when she was talking to me that is when he got up, this gentleman here in the seat got up, at seat "m" got off. in other words, the door was never closed of the bus from the time the gentleman stepped up in the door of that there, in other words, when he said what he did, and got on back in his car, in other words, the lady got off, and the man got off, too, both at the same stop. in other words, the bus hadn't moved at that stop. mr. ball. i would like to mark this as the next exhibit, commission's exhibit, which will be the diagram of the bus with the initials "m," "o," "l," "p," will be marked as commission's exhibit . representative ford. it will be so admitted. (the diagram referred to was marked commission's exhibit no. for identification and received in evidence.) mr. ball. and a photograph of the interior of the bus, i would like to have marked as . and a diagram of the bus itself showing front and side as . (the photograph and diagram referred to were marked commission exhibits nos. and , respectively, and received in evidence.) mr. ball. i will hand you a photograph of the exterior of the bus. mr. mcwatters. yes, sir; in other words, that is the same bus number. mr. ball. that is right. mr. mcwatters. that is the bus it was. mr. ball. that is the bus. number---- mr. mcwatters. . representative ford. so admitted. mr. ball. these are all admitted. now, we have this map which is commission's exhibit . can you show me your starting point which is where you started your time on elm and what street? mr. mcwatters. that is elm and st. paul. mr. ball. will you mark an "x" there with your black pen, or let's take red pen this time for you, on this same map, here it is right there, that is where you commenced your time, is that right? mr. mcwatters. yes. mr. ball. put an "o" there. mr. mcwatters. put an "o" here. mr. ball. just circle that intersection. mr. mcwatters. o.k. mr. ball. now, you went along elm, westerly along elm? mr. mcwatters. that is right---- mr. ball. put a "p" about the place where the man knocked on the window of your door of your bus and got on. here is griffin. mr. mcwatters. this is griffin right here, mark that with a "p". mr. ball. and put an "r" at the place where the man got off the bus. mr. mcwatters. let's see. mr. ball. here is lamar. mr. mcwatters. here is lamar here. i want to find poydras. mr. ball. that is right in here. mr. mcwatters. that would be, in other words, about the center here would be, in other words, a little bit closer to lamar than---- mr. ball. put an "r" there to indicate the approximate position where he got off. "o" is where you started, so you had better raise those up to elm. the place he got on and the place he got off. perhaps, if you would just draw a line up and put your "r" it would be easier. mr. mcwatters. on griffin here now that is where you want---- mr. ball. where he got on, wherever it was. mr. mcwatters. is that where you want the "p"? mr. ball. that is where he got on? mr. mcwatters. yes. o.k. right here. mr. ball. and where he got off "r". mr. mcwatters. that is a very short block right in between poydras and lamar here. mr. ball. all right. now, let's use the map here. you made your start at st. paul and elm didn't you, and went west. mr. mcwatters. yes, sir. mr. ball. now, you picked up a man who knocked on the window of your bus at a place in the street that was not a bus stop, is that right? mr. mcwatters. that is correct. mr. ball. and its approximate location was where? mr. mcwatters. at griffin street. mr. ball. and you have marked that as "p"? mr. mcwatters. marked that as "p". mr. ball. that same man stayed on your bus until you got to what location mr. mcwatters. well, the location was between poydras and lamar street. in other words, i would say closer to lamar than to poydras. mr. ball. at that point he got off the bus? mr. mcwatters. he got off the bus. mr. ball. and you gave him a transfer? mr. mcwatters. yes. mr. ball. and you have marked that "r", is that correct? mr. mcwatters. that is right, yes. mr. ball. there is another map i would like to show you that hasn't been marked yet as a commission exhibit, and i will have that marked as , a map of dallas. you have already marked on this map, haven't you, or it has been marked in advance then by someone. (the map referred to was marked commission's exhibit no. and received in evidence.) mr. mcwatters. yes. mr. ball. now, take a look at this map and tell me if that map, the blue line on the map, indicates your route on that day, where you started in northeast dallas? mr. mcwatters. yes, that is the original starting line there. mr. ball. what is the street? mr. mcwatters. i believe--i can't even see that small print on that. that is ellsworth and anita, that is where it is coming back there. mr. ball. ellsworth and anita, and then you proceeded downtown along that course, did you? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir. this is lakewood shopping center. mr. ball. do you have an alternative route through there? mr. mcwatters. no, in other words, that is where the main thoroughfare starts right there at gaston avenue. gaston right here which is the main street when you leave this shopping center. mr. ball. you went down gaston to pacific? mr. mcwatters. went down gaston to, let's see this is hawkins street right here. mr. ball. then you went left on hawkins to elm? mr. mcwatters. to elm street, yes, sir. mr. ball. then you went on elm. mr. mcwatters. went from elm to, this would be houston street. mr. ball. turned on houston street viaduct? mr. mcwatters. left on houston street. mr. ball. to marsalis? mr. mcwatters. in other words, this is the houston street viaduct and this is marsalis where you turn and come off houston street viaduct. mr. ball. then you go south how far? mr. mcwatters. go south all the way to, let's see, it is ann arbor. this is all marsalis right here. mr. ball. a straight run south? mr. mcwatters. straight run. mr. ball. then you make a turn and go back? mr. mcwatters. i make a turn, in other words, on ann arbor and in other words, just circle, make a loop, just circle right around this little shopping center here. mr. ball. and go back. mr. mcwatters. and right back down marsalis. mr. ball. marsalis is how far from beckley? mr. mcwatters. marsalis is, let's see---- mr. ball. this is beckley here? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir. mr. ball. you can count the streets there, can you? mr. mcwatters. in other words, it would be seven blocks. mr. ball. seven blocks, beckley is seven blocks west of marsalis, is that correct? mr. mcwatters. yes. mr. ball. your bus line doesn't run down beckley? mr. mcwatters. no, sir. mr. ball. it doesn't run seven blocks, close to beckley? have you seen this? here is beckley and here is marsalis, the bus line. is there a bus route on beckley? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir; there is. mr. ball. can you get a bus that goes down beckley some place around houston and elm? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir; the bus comes, the beckley bus comes in on st. paul and elm, in other words, at the time that i was, before we started, in other words, that is where the beckley bus enters elm street there and then he goes the same route through town. mr. ball. same route you go down to the houston viaduct? mr. mcwatters. yes. in other words, after the book depository down there, he goes straight on. mr. ball. let me ask you this: the beckley bus, the bus that will take you south on beckley, has a starting point the same place as yours at st. paul and elm? mr. mcwatters. st. paul, in other words, the time element is the same. in other words, he comes in there. mr. ball. then that beckley bus goes west on elm the same as your bus? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir. mr. ball. but instead of turning south on the houston street viaduct the beckley bus goes straight west on elm, doesn't it? mr. mcwatters. that is correct. mr. ball. can you show us the bus stop for the beckley bus on this commission exhibit no. ? mr. mcwatters. well, yes; his last bus stop would be right here at the corner of---- mr. ball. let's put a mark on this. here is a red pencil, and put a mark on this in red and show us the place where the beckley bus would stop. mr. mcwatters. it would stop--in other words, we consider this corner of this intersection right here, any letter or what. mr. ball. just put a rectangular mark about the size of a bus indicating bus stop--take black ink and indicating a place where the bus would stop. mr. mcwatters. in other words, the bus would stop along in this place right here. mr. ball. all right, now that is bus stop for beckley bus. mr. mcwatters. that is bus stop for beckley bus. mr. ball. northeast corner houston and elm. mr. mcwatters. northeast corner of houston and elm. mr. ball. the beckley bus goes on across directly in front of the texas school book depository building? mr. mcwatters. that is correct. mr. ball. as your bus gets into another lane of traffic and does not stop at houston and elm and makes a turn south on houston. mr. mcwatters. yes. mr. ball. then the beckley bus stop, the stop of the beckley bus, which is in black ink on the northeast corner of houston and elm, we will mark that with a big "b" which stands for beckley bus. representative ford. how long have you been on this run that you had the day of november ? mr. mcwatters. i worked this run for, i would say, this is the second year. this makes years that i worked this. representative ford. two years consecutively? mr. mcwatters. years consecutively that i have been on this run and worked it. representative ford. so you would be familiar with the route? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir; just like i say, i worked it, this is the second year that i have worked the same, in other words, the same hours, and the same route. representative ford. how many hours a day do you work this route? mr. mcwatters. well, now, this one particular route right here, i work it only hours and minutes. representative ford. each day? mr. mcwatters. each day. representative ford. how many days a week? mr. mcwatters. days, monday through friday. and after that, in other words, i work on another, a different bus line. but this one particular one here is just hours and minutes each day. representative ford. when you say a different bus line, you mean the same company but a different route? mr. mcwatters. a different route. representative ford. you would be familiar with the time schedules and all of the stops on this particular route from your years' experience? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir. senator cooper. may i ask a question? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir. senator cooper. have you testified that you saw this passenger whom you later recognized in the lineup, get on the bus in the vicinity of murphy street--is murphy street on your right? mr. mcwatters. murphy street is the street that, in other words, that comes in. senator cooper. does it run into elm street? mr. mcwatters. it runs into elm street, it dead ends, in other words, into elm street. here is field street, in other words, across this intersection and we stopped across the intersection of field, and murphy street comes in to the intersection at about where the bus stops, in other words, where field street stops and i guess that griffin is the next small street that comes in just, it is just a short distance below. senator cooper. well, did the passenger that you have testified about, and whom you stated that you later identified, did he get on in the vicinity of murphy street? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir. senator cooper. murphy street--you proceeded from murphy street toward the texas school book depository? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir. senator cooper. is that correct? mr. mcwatters. that is correct. senator cooper. was the passenger that got on near murphy street the same passenger that you later have testified about who told you that the president had been shot in the temple? mr. mcwatters. well, they told me later that it was, but at the time they didn't tell me. senator cooper. who didn't tell you? mr. mcwatters. the police didn't. senator cooper. when you say this passenger got on near murphy street, was there anything about him that caused you to take notice of him particularly? mr. mcwatters. well, no, sir. i wouldn't say there was. he was, i would say, he didn't have on no suit or anything, he had on, i believe, some type of jacket, cloth jacket. senator cooper. what caused you to remember him getting on? mr. mcwatters. what caused me to remember? senator cooper. yes; at the time he got on. mr. mcwatters. because, the reason i remembered exactly because i didn't put out but two transfers, and that, in other words, from where he got on and everything, i didn't have but one, there wasn't but one man on the bus and that was the teenage boy, when he got on the bus, in other words, when he got off, he was the only man except the teenage boy who was on the bus at the time. senator cooper. now was this man that you saw got on the bus the same one who told you that the president had been shot in the temple? mr. mcwatters. the man who got on the bus now? senator cooper. yes. the man to whom you have just referred as getting on the bus near murphy street. mr. mcwatters. yes. senator cooper. is he the same man who told you that the president had been shot in the temple? mr. mcwatters. no, sir. senator cooper. who told you that? mr. mcwatters. a man in an automobile in front of me, in other words, that was sitting in a car come back and told me. senator cooper. told you what? mr. mcwatters. that the president had been shot, that he had heard over his radio in his car that the president had been shot. senator cooper. i think you have testified that someone, some passenger on the bus, in response to a question that you had asked, "i wonder where they shot the president" said, "they shot him in the temple." mr. mcwatters. oh, that was now, that was after we had done, that is when i turned on houston street, the conversation with the teenage boy. senator cooper. it was the teenage boy who told you that? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir; it was the teenage boy, sitting on his right side of the side seat there, the one that i conversationed with about the president being shot in the head or the temple, i don't remember, but the teenage boy was the one. that was after the man that already got off that had boarded my bus up around griffin there. senator cooper. then the one who told you the president had been shot in the temple was not the one you later identified in the police lineup? mr. mcwatters. no, sir. senator cooper. this probably has been testified to, but where did the man that you later identified in the police lineup get off the bus? mr. mcwatters. got off between poydras and lamar street. senator cooper. was that after you crossed over the viaduct or before? mr. mcwatters. no, sir; that was before i crossed over. senator cooper. when did the teenage boy get off the bus? mr. mcwatters. he got off at oak cliff, i believe. he got off at marsalis and brownley. senator cooper. was that after the bus had crossed the viaduct? mr. mcwatters. that is after the bus had---- senator cooper. past the texas depository? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir; that is about or miles out in the oak cliff section where the teenage boy got off of the bus. senator cooper. from the time the man got on the bus, which you later identified in the police lineup until he got off, had you noticed him, had you looked at him again? mr. mcwatters. had i looked at him again? senator cooper. yes. mr. mcwatters. not until just like i say he was sitting--i was talking to this teenage boy and he was sitting right behind this boy, but i didn't pay him any particular attention, to the man. senator cooper. you saw him get on the bus? mr. mcwatters. yes. senator cooper. did you see him get off? mr. mcwatters. yes; i gave him a transfer when he got off the bus, the same place that was, the same place i was stopped where the man come back and stepped up in the bus and told me what he had heard over his radio in his car, the same place that the lady got off, with a suitcase, is the place that the man got off. senator cooper. the man you later identified in the police lineup? mr. mcwatters. that is correct; yes, sir. senator cooper. did you pay any particular attention to him when he got off? mr. mcwatters. not no more than i did than, i think, when he got on. senator cooper. do you remember anything about his clothes or his general appearance in any way? mr. mcwatters. just like i say, i remember he had on, to me he had on just work clothes, he didn't have on a suit of clothes, and some type of jacket. i would say a cloth jacket. senator cooper. i believe that is all. mr. ball. you didn't--as i understand it, when you were at the police lineup, you told us that you didn't--weren't able to identify this man in the lineup as the man who got off, that you gave the transfer to. mr. mcwatters. i told them to the best of my knowledge, i said the man that i picked out was the same height, about the same height, weight and description. but as far as actually saying that is the man i couldn't---- mr. ball. you couldn't do it? mr. mcwatters. i wouldn't do it and i wouldn't do it now. mr. ball. you signed an affidavit for the dallas police department, do you remember that? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir. mr. ball. i will show you a copy of it, we can get the original if you want, but there is a copy of it, a picture taken of it. will you read it, please? (at this point, representative ford withdrew from the hearing room.) mr. ball. this document, i would like to have marked as , at this time, commission exhibit, with the understanding that we may substitute the photostat for the original. senator cooper. very well; let it be substituted. it has been identified, and will be identified. mr. ball. yes, it will be; i will identify it for the record as a photostat of an affidavit of cecil j. mcwatters made before patsy collins, notary public of dallas county, tex., november , . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit , and received in evidence.) mr. ball. now, having read that, first of all, does that look like your signature, mr. mcwatters? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir; it does. mr. ball. do you remember the circumstances under which you made that affidavit? mr. mcwatters. well, i just told them the best i could remember. mr. ball. i am showing this to you for the purpose of refreshing your memory. mr. mcwatters. yes, i know. mr. ball. i know it has been several months. mr. mcwatters. yes, i know what you mean. mr. ball. and sometimes when you see something that you signed before it refreshes your memory. mr. mcwatters. it sure does. yes, that is what you mean, i know what you mean, i said that looked like the man i saw. mr. ball. in this affidavit, it says, it mentions the fact that when you went to marsalis and picked up a woman. mr. mcwatters. yes. mr. ball. you asked her if she knew the president had been shot, you told us about that a few moments ago. mr. mcwatters. yes. mr. ball. she thought you were kidding, and you told her, "i told her if she didn't believe me to ask the man behind her, that he had told me the president was shot in the temple." mr. mcwatters. yes. mr. ball. was the man, was that the teenager? mr. mcwatters. that is right, sir, that was the teenage boy. in other words, he was, i would say, around or years old. mr. ball. you said here, "the man didn't say anything but he was grinning." mr. mcwatters. yes. mr. ball. do you think that happened? mr. mcwatters. well, when the lady asked him, he just kind of grinned, in other words, and she said, "this is not a grinning or laughing matter," or something to that effect i don't remember just exactly what she did say. mr. ball. now you told them at that time you didn't know where you let this man off. mr. mcwatters. that is right, i didn't at that time, i didn't know where he got off. mr. ball. you told us a few moments ago you thought he got off another place. mr. mcwatters. that is right, sir. mr. ball. what was that place? mr. mcwatters. he got off at brownley, because the man rode with me the next day. mr. ball. you went out there the next day, did you? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir. mr. ball. with an fbi man or a dallas policeman? mr. mcwatters. no, i mean---- mr. ball. the same teenager? mr. mcwatters. the same teenager rode with me the next day. mr. ball. and you noticed he got off there? mr. mcwatters. yes, and i noticed, and i asked him, like i told him, i said that i was--i thought that, you know, that he was, when he first got on down there, i says, "from all indications, we had you kind of pinpointed as the man who might have been mixed up in the assassination and everything." and---- mr. ball. do i understand the day after you made the affidavit, this would be the d of november? mr. mcwatters. yes. mr. ball. that this same teenager got on your bus again? mr. mcwatters. yes, he got on. mr. ball. and you noticed where you let him off? mr. mcwatters. i noticed where i let him off, yes, sir. mr. ball. is that the reason that today you remember he got off? mr. mcwatters. that is it today i remember, just like i say, i remember i talked to him the next day, and he told me where he got on, and he told me where he got on, and where he got off and where he lived, and, you know that---- mr. ball. has he been on your bus since? mr. mcwatters. yes. mr. ball. he has? mr. mcwatters. he has rode with me since. mr. ball. yes. i see. did you give him a transfer that day? mr. mcwatters. no, because he gets on and he lives within about two blocks of the busline, in other words, where he gets off. mr. ball. do you know this boy's name? mr. mcwatters. i believe his name is milton jones. mr. ball. milton jones? mr. mcwatters. milton jones. i don't believe i know where he lives, but i pass where he lives. but he told me his name was milton jones and he told me he was . mr. ball. did he ever tell you where he works? mr. mcwatters. he told me that, i believe, he goes to school half a day, believe he said and i believe he goes home and he has a part-time job, but he never did state where he works. mr. ball. did he tell you where he went to school? mr. mcwatters. no, sir; he never did tell me where he went to school. mr. ball. or where he worked? mr. mcwatters. where he worked, either one. mr. ball. you notice in the affidavit there it says, "this man"--referring to the man who was grinning---- mr. mcwatters. yes. mr. ball. "this man looks like the no. man i saw in the lineup today." mr. mcwatters. yes. mr. ball. who was the no. man you saw in the lineup on november , ? mr. mcwatters. well, just like i say, he was the shortest man in the lineup, in other words, when they brought these men out there, in other words, he was about the shortest, and the lightest weight one, i guess, was the reason i say that he looked like the man, because the rest of them were larger men than---- mr. ball. well, now, at that time, when you saw the lineup---- mr. mcwatters. yes. mr. ball. were you under the impression that this man that you saw in the lineup and whom you pointed out to the police, was the teenage boy who had been grinning? mr. mcwatters. i was, yes, sir; i was under the impression---- mr. ball. that was the fellow? mr. mcwatters. that was the fellow. mr. ball. you were not under the impression then that night when you saw the lineup that the no. man in the lineup was the man who got off the bus, to whom you had given a transfer? mr. mcwatters. that is what i say. in other words, when i told them, i said, the only way is the man, that he is smaller, in other words, he kind of had a thin like face and he weighs less than any one of them. the only one i could identify at all would be the smaller man on account he was the only one who could come near fitting the description. mr. ball. let me ask you this, though. did you tell them the man, the smaller man, you saw in the lineup, did you tell them that you thought he was the man who got off your bus and got the transfer or the man who was on the bus who was the teenager who was grinning? mr. mcwatters. well, i really thought he was the man who was on the bus. mr. ball. that stayed on the bus? mr. mcwatters. that stayed on the bus. mr. ball. and you didn't think he was the man who got off the bus and to whom you gave a transfer? mr. mcwatters. no, sir. mr. ball. at that time you didn't? mr. mcwatters. that is why i say i pinpointed that transfer on that boy as far as that is concerned. but at first, just like i say, i really thought from the height and weight of the two men, i mean was just like i say, was both of them were small. in the lineup they had, in other words, bigger men, in other words, he was the smallest man at the lineup. mr. ball. we have got--we have this diagram that you have already drawn of the bus which has several initials on it. could you tell me where on the bus this lady sat who told the teenager it was no grinning matter? mr. mcwatters. well, now, that is, in other words, i don't think at that time--now this teenager was still on the bus near, but i had a couple of more passengers on there, i believe i had two women on there, but i can't recall just, when i picked her up where she sat down on the bus. mr. ball. do you remember you said to the woman, "look at that man behind you?" mr. mcwatters. yes, she was standing up here at the fare, paying fare. mr. ball. and the teenager was where? mr. mcwatters. he was sitting right here. mr. ball. at the place "o", is that right? mr. mcwatters. yes, at the place "o". mr. ball. i see. mr. mcwatters. that is where the conversation was going on. mr. ball. mr. mcwatters, that affidavit you have there, will you look at another item you have there? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir. mr. ball. "today, november , , about : p.m., i was driving marsalis bus no. ." mr. mcwatters. that is right. mr. ball. first of all, you have referred to that as another bus, munger bus, is that the same bus? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir; in other words, that number there is my run number right here on my card. mr. ball. i understand that, but do you call that run the marsalis run as well as the munger run? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir. well, here you can--let me show you here on this schedule right here, marsalis, ramona, elwood and munger. mr. ball. can we take this and have a xerox---- mr. mcwatters. you can just take the whole thing. mr. ball. all right. we will have a xerox of this and mark it , a xerox copy. will you identify that document and tell me what it is? (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit , for identification.) mr. mcwatters. this is a schedule, i will just say a bus schedule. mr. ball. that is for the marsalis-ramona-elwood-munger run? mr. mcwatters. that is correct. mr. ball. run . is this the run schedule that was in effect on november , ? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir; that is correct. mr. ball. it shows here at st. paul you were to leave at : ; is that correct? mr. mcwatters. that is correct. mr. ball. we will make a photostat of that and we will give you back the original. mr. mcwatters. you can keep that if you want to. they made another copy of it. mr. ball. all right, then, we will keep this as an original. can this be introduced into evidence, senator? senator cooper. yes, let it be made a part of the evidence. (the document heretofore marked for identification as commission exhibit no. , was received in evidence.) mr. ball. i have a few more questions to ask you, a few more questions, mr. mcwatters. let's look again at this affidavit. mr. mcwatters. yes, sir. mr. ball. "i picked up a man on the lower end of town on elm around houston," as i remember you didn't stop at elm and houston; you stopped at record and houston for a pickup. mr. mcwatters. yes. mr. ball. do you remember having picked up any man around the lower end of town at elm around houston? mr. mcwatters. elm and houston? mr. ball. yes. mr. mcwatters. no, no, sir; i didn't pick up. i made a statement here i picked up---- mr. ball. take a look at it, "i picked up a man on the lower end of town on elm around houston." mr. mcwatters. no, i didn't. i picked--"i picked a man up at the lower end of town at elm," no, sir, i didn't pick up no man. no, i was tied up in traffic there. market street is the--i must not have read that very good when i signed that, because i sure didn't. no, i didn't. mr. ball. did you pick up a man at record and houston? mr. mcwatters. no, sir. mr. ball. you didn't? mr. mcwatters. no, sir; that is not even no stop. mr. ball. in other words, this statement is not an accurate statement? mr. mcwatters. that is right, sir, because in fact that day the police wouldn't let nobody, in other words they run them buses through but they wouldn't let nothing stop there, in other words. mr. ball. let's get back to that lineup. did you pick out one man or two men that night as people you had seen, as a person you had seen before? mr. mcwatters. well, i picked out, the only one that i told them it was the short man that i picked out up there. mr. ball. and you thought he was the teenager whom you described? mr. mcwatters. yes, first that is what i thought he was. mr. ball. now you have named him milton jones. mr. mcwatters. yes, he was---- mr. ball. now you realize you were mistaken in your identification that night? mr. mcwatters. that is right. mr. ball. as i understand it, neither then nor now are you able to identify or say that you have again seen the man that got off your bus to whom you gave a transfer? mr. mcwatters. no, sir; i couldn't. i could not identify him. mr. ball. this beckley bus that we talked about, remember the one that has the starting point at st. paul and elm---- mr. mcwatters. yes, sir. mr. ball. the same as your bus, the marsalis bus? mr. mcwatters. yes. mr. ball. what is the difference in the time run, what time does the beckley bus leave--let me withdraw the question. your bus leaves st. paul and elm at : , scheduled to leave there as of november d? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir. mr. ball. using the same schedule, can you tell me at what time around : or so that the beckley bus would leave elm and st. paul and proceed westerly on elm? mr. mcwatters. he is scheduled in there the same time as i am, : . mr. ball. : . was that bus in the line? mr. mcwatters. no. in other words, that bus was behind me, in other words, because when i got there as a general rule, when we pull up there every day, in other words, i am coming in one direction and he is another, in other words, most every day, we will pull up at this intersection at the same time. now, whichever way the light changes is who gets, in other words, who gets in front of who. but at that day, i am sure that i was ahead of the beckley bus. mr. ball. you are sure you were ahead of it? mr. mcwatters. because there wasn't another bus in front of me. i was the first bus down there that was tied up in there in the traffic. mr. ball. did you see the beckley bus? mr. mcwatters. no, sir. mr. ball. you don't remember whether he was behind you or not? mr. mcwatters. i don't remember whether he was behind me or not. mr. ball. can you transfer from your bus to the beckley bus? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir; sure can. mr. ball. any particular transfer point? mr. mcwatters. well, there are particular transfer points, but we don't question anybody within the downtown section with a transfer. mr. ball. if you gave a transfer to your bus, then that transfer would be good on a beckley bus any place along elm, wouldn't it? mr. mcwatters. that is right, it sure would. mr. ball. up to the place where you change courses? mr. mcwatters. it would be accepted; yes, sir. mr. ball. your course is westerly on elm, is identical with that of the beckley bus between st. paul and houston, isn't it? mr. mcwatters. that is correct. mr. ball. and from that point you go south on houston, and the beckley bus continues west on elm? mr. mcwatters. that is correct. mr. ball. so that would be a normal transfer point, wouldn't it? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir. mr. ball. houston and elm? mr. mcwatters. that would be a transfer. in other words, now, like i say, lamar is the general transfer point of where all the buses cross. mr. ball. now, that night of the lineup, when you identified this one short man---- mr. mcwatters. yes. mr. ball. as being probably the teenager that had been on the bus---- mr. mcwatters. yes. mr. ball. was there anything unusual in the conduct of anyone in the lineup? mr. mcwatters. no. mr. ball. did any man in the lineup talk more than anyone else? mr. mcwatters. no, i believe they had a guy that asked them their address, and they said, "address" and i don't know, he asked them, i believe he asked some of them where they lived or some or them where they worked, or i don't remember just what, in other words, he asked some enough, every one of them to say some few words. mr. ball. you could hear them talk? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir; you could hear them talk. mr. ball. was any one man boisterous, mean, loud, anything of that sort? mr. mcwatters. no, not that i could tell any difference. they all talked to me as, in other words, you just asked them their name and address. if they did, i didn't pay any attention to it. (at this point, representative ford entered the hearing room.) mr. ball. this is exhibit no. that i will show you again. you have indicated on the map the course of your bus south on marsalis. is there any other bus route that goes south on any street east of marsalis? mr. mcwatters. you mean that crosses it this way? mr. ball. no, goes south. mr. mcwatters. well, let's see. mr. ball. is there a main highway called denley? is there a bus route on ewing? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir. bus route on ewing. mr. ball. that goes south on ewing? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir. mr. ball. does that bus come anywhere near, does that bus run down elm? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir. mr. ball. where does it turn to get to ewing? mr. mcwatters. in other words, it turns, it goes just like the marsalis bus here goes, until he gets---- mr. ball. let's start up at elm here, elm and houston now. does the bus that goes down ewing come west on elm? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir. mr. ball. does it go by st. paul and elm? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir. mr. ball. have a starting point there? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir; it is a final point for it right there. mr. ball. and it goes west on elm? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir. mr. ball. where does it turn off elm? mr. mcwatters. it turns the same place as i do, in other words. mr. ball. south on houston? mr. mcwatters. south on houston. mr. ball. and then does it go across the houston street viaduct? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir. mr. ball. then it turns on, how does it get onto ewing? mr. mcwatters. it comes on out to marsalis to, let's see, i have to find the zoo. that is where it turns right there at the marsalis park, and turns and goes over to ewing, let's see, what is the name of that--this bus turns to the left off marsalis there, it is a park--there is a big expressway there and it is the first street when it crosses over the expressway where it turns off of marsalis on opera. the name of the bus is ramona, it is the same, in other words, it is the same line as this other one. mr. ball. as i understand it now the bus that goes down ewing comes off the houston street viaduct as far as, comes down the houston street viaduct as far as marsalis, does it? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir; and it goes south on marsalis. mr. ball. it goes south on marsalis? mr. mcwatters. that is right. mr. ball. and it turns over to ewing, that would be east on ewing? mr. mcwatters. yes; that would be east. mr. ball. at or about what point? mr. mcwatters. well, in other words, that is the marsalis zoo is where it is, after you cross the expressway there, it is the first street, opera is the name of that and it goes right down to ewing. mr. ball. then at the corner of th, at the intersection of th and marsalis both buses travel the same route? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir; they sure do. both buses travel the same route to marsalis and the ramona bus on that part travel the same route. mr. ball. probably on the same route. now, i show you this document which is the bus schedule of marsalis-ramona-elwood-munger, and it shows you leave st. paul at : and you arrive at lamar : . the bus transfers are punched you told me for o'clock. we have a transfer here that you have seen or we will show you in a few minutes as soon as it gets here, which has a punch mark of o'clock. you told senator cooper that you usually punched within minutes of the time you reached the transfer points? mr. mcwatters. yes. mr. ball. if that is the case, what---- mr. mcwatters. you mean why did i have it punched at o'clock? mr. ball. yes. mr. mcwatters. because i punch it p.m. in other words, i have a punch, i am going to lakewood, i mean i am going marsalis and i am going back lakewood, so i just take me two books of transfers. instead of punching one of them a.m. and one p.m. i just punched them p.m. mr. ball. do you punch within minutes of the time you reach the transfer points? mr. mcwatters. that is the way that the transfers are supposed to be cut. mr. ball. well, if you reach lamar, if you were to reach lamar at : , what time, according to the rules should you punch it? mr. mcwatters. i should have punched it at : . mr. ball. at : ? mr. mcwatters. but i would have to punch one book a.m. and another one p.m., so i just punched both of them p.m. mr. ball. in other words, what you do is punch on the hour rather than the and minutes usually? mr. mcwatters. yes. mr. ball. in other words, your usual practice is not to punch on the -minute interval, is that right, but to punch on the hour? mr. mcwatters. well, just like i say within the closest of the hour like that, in other words. mr. ball. suppose today you were wanting to punch some transfers at the end of the line and you knew you were going to get to lamar at : . would you punch--what would you punch it? mr. mcwatters. i work that run all the time, i punch at o'clock every day. as i say i worked it years and as i say in order to keep from punching one of them a.m. and one p.m., for the difference in the hour there, i just punch them p.m. mr. ball. i don't quite understand that. doesn't your p.m. start at after o'clock? mr. mcwatters. well, the way the transfers are there, did you notice how they was, they run them until--see how : there, in other words, that is what they use that up to a.m. in other words. mr. ball. it is : a.m., it runs up to a.m. mr. mcwatters. that is what they run it to a.m. in other words, after : or in there, in other words, everything is punched p.m. mr. ball. in other words, everything in the hour from on is punched a.m., the day time, to one is a.m., to : , for that hour, a transfer good in that hour is punched a.m., is that right? mr. mcwatters. yes, it can be punched a.m. up to, just like : . mr. ball. and the next punch is o'clock and that is p.m.? mr. mcwatters. that is p.m.; yes, sir. that is the way they have them. representative ford. the day that you punched this particular transfer, november ? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir. representative ford. you punched them the same that day as you did every other day? mr. mcwatters. that is right. every day, in other words, i just punch them p.m. i punch them p.m., and in other words, so it will be just a straight cut across it. representative ford. is that the usual practice for all bus drivers to use this practice? mr. mcwatters. the practice they are supposed to cut them within the quarter of the hour, but in other words, i just have been working that run and i just, it is p.m., and i just make one trip one way and one back the other, and so i--all i carry are two books of transfers and so i just punch two books p.m., using one going one way at o'clock and the other coming back at . representative ford. this is the practice you have used for years approximately? mr. mcwatters. that is right, when i worked that run, in other words, when i am going one way at o'clock, coming back from the other end of the line i set them at . i am back in there at, my next trip i am back in there at lamar street, i think it is : but i always just set them at o'clock. mr. ball. we have a couple of more pictures here. and which are pictures of the interior of the bus--nos. and . (picture marked for identification as commission exhibit no. is the same as commission exhibit no. .) i will first show you . is that a picture of the bus from front to rear of your bus? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir; that is the front and that is the rear. mr. ball. here is , is that a picture of the bus taken from the front taken looking towards the rear? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir. mr. ball. i offer these in evidence, too. representative ford. so admitted. (the pictures referred to were marked commission's exhibits nos. and and received in evidence.) mr. ball. i have here an exhibit which i would like to have marked as which can be identified as a transfer issued by dallas transit company, friday, november , . do you identify it, can you tell me, if you have ever seen that transfer before? mr. mcwatters. yes, that is my punch mark right on that there; p.m. (the transfer was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. ball. you issued it, did you? mr. mcwatters. yes. mr. ball. tell me when you issued it, on what run? mr. mcwatters. i issued it on marsalis and munger line at i would say, around to the best of my knowledge it would be around : or somewheres in that vicinity on november . mr. ball. and it has your punch mark, has it? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir; that is my punch mark. mr. ball. identify it punched in the p.m. section? mr. mcwatters. of the lakewood column here on the transfer. mr. ball. when did you punch it exactly? where were you when you punched it? mr. mcwatters. i punched it before i left the end of the line, in other words. mr. ball. this is number , is the transfer number. entitled "the shoppers transfer." every transfer has a separate number, has it? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir; everyone has a separate number. mr. ball. what we would like to do is mark a photostat of the transfer as a and substitute the photostat and we can return the transfer to the custody of the fbi. representative ford. the exhibit will be admitted. (the photostat referred to was marked commission exhibit a and received in evidence.) representative ford. how many of those transfers did you issue on this particular run? mr. mcwatters. well---- representative ford. up to the time you passed the texas school depository. mr. mcwatters. i really don't know because i didn't, see. i didn't know anything--i didn't put out any--most of the transfers that you put out at this time or that time of day are for elderly women which get the shopper's transfers, in other words. it has got a line there, and it entitles them to a free ride back to where they came from, in other words, and that time of the morning, because when i get downtown, in other words, you can catch a bus at elm street going to any place that i would go without having a transfer, in other words. representative ford. would you have any recollection of how many passengers you picked up from the beginning of the line to the time that this man got on at the middle of the block on elm street? mr. mcwatters. well, i don't--i recall that i didn't have very many passengers that day, because i figured that everybody had done gone to town to see the parade, to see the president, and it just wasn't what few passengers i recall was mostly elderly women that was going into town. i don't recall just how many of them i did have on the bus. representative ford. but you did have these two men, the teenager and this other young man? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir; that were on the bus. representative ford. and you very specifically recall giving a transfer to this woman with the suitcase and the man who was in the second seat on the right-hand side? mr. mcwatters. on the right side that got off. in other words, to the best of my knowledge that is the only two transfers that i put out going through town that i can recall at all, i mean, because i don't recall putting out any more transfers than those two that i put out when i was held up there in traffic. mr. ball. mr. mcwatters, on this transfer is the name of shopper's transfer. does that have any significance? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir; that is what i was telling him. in other words, if they want a shoppers; well i put my punch mark in that shoppers there, which they cannot use it for a transfer, in other words, any more than other than--all the stores, most of them in downtown dallas, if you buy as much as a dollar's worth between the period of ten and four in the afternoon they give you a little white slip which entitled you to ride what is called the shopper's pass. it rides you back, but in other words you have to, a passenger has to, ask for it in other words. when they say a shopper, you take a punch and punch your punch mark where it says shoppers, but they are not supposed to use the transfer then to transfer to another bus. they are supposed, in other words, where it is punched in the store, get it exchanged for their return fare. mr. ball. in other words, all your transfers have on them printed the word "shopper's transfer"? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir; they do. mr. ball. and in order to make it a shopper's transfer so that the transfer can be exchanged for a merchandise coupon to ride home, it has to have your punch in the shopper's transfer area, is that right? mr. mcwatters. that is correct, yes, sir. mr. ball. did you know, did you remember, an elderly woman getting on your bus some place on elm after you left st. paul? mr. mcwatters. not that i recall. mr. ball. do you remember when this man, do you remember when this man knocked on your window, and you opened your bus and let him on, some place around murphy or griffin and elm, that an elderly woman got up in the bus and moved? did you see that or anything like that? mr. mcwatters. no, i don't recall. mr. ball. do you know whether or not you left an elderly woman off down around in the oak cliff area some place? mr. mcwatters. the best i can recall i had two or three or four elderly women, the best i can remember on the bus when i left town, but i don't recall where any of them got off. mr. ball. do you know a woman named mary bledsoe? did you pick anybody up at st. paul and elm? mr. mcwatters. i really don't--i really can't recall whether i did or not. mr. ball. i have no further questions. senator cooper. i would like to ask a few, if i may. am i correct in saying that the direction of your bus at the time of these events you have testified to it was going west on elm street? mr. mcwatters. west on elm. in other words, west, the streets of dallas all run east and west. senator cooper. but when you got to houston street, then you turned south? mr. mcwatters. i turned south, that is correct. senator cooper. did your bus pass the texas school book depository? mr. mcwatters. well---- senator cooper. i mean does it pass it directly? mr. mcwatters. it doesn't pass it directly, no, sir. in other words, where i turn to the left on houston street, the book store is across on the opposite corner. senator cooper. now, as you reached lamar street, or did you reach lamar street on that date before you passed near the texas school book depository? mr. mcwatters. you mean--yes, i have to pass lamar street before i get down to there. senator cooper. now, this first affidavit you made on november ---- mr. mcwatters. yes, sir. senator cooper. which has been referred to in the testimony. mr. mcwatters. yes. senator cooper. it stated in this affidavit that, "i picked up a man on the lower end of town on elm around houston." now, you picked up a man at that time it would have been after you passed lamar street? mr. mcwatters. it would have been after i passed lamar. senator cooper. the remainder of the affidavit, which has been made a part of the testimony---- mr. mcwatters. yes. senator cooper. refers to that you picked up a woman and you asked her if she knew the president had been shot, and then the man--you asked her then to speak to the man behind her. mr. mcwatters. yes. senator cooper. "who said the president was shot in the temple." now, then, this incident that you testified to in this affidavit, was after you had passed elm street? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir; that is right. senator cooper. was the man that you were talking about in this affidavit the teenager? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir. senator cooper. at the time this affidavit was made, were you asked about any other man who may have been on the run that day at that time? mr. mcwatters. i don't remember whether i was or not. senator cooper. what was it then that caused you at some time later to remember that another man had got on the bus near murphy and had left the bus, as you have stated in or blocks in the vicinity of elm street? mr. mcwatters. well, just like i say, the best i can remember is the man, i believe in fact beside the boy, i believe he was the only man on board the bus. after i got to recall, in other words---- senator cooper. but what i am asking you is what it was that caused you to remember the teenager at the time you made this affidavit on the d, and what it was that, why it was that, you didn't at that time speak of the other man who had got on the bus? mr. mcwatters. that is what i say, it just didn't--it just doesn't register, i don't know. senator cooper. were you asked whether or not any other man was on the bus? mr. mcwatters. i don't remember whether i was or not. senator cooper. when was it that you remembered about the second man being on the bus, the man that you now state got on around murphy street and got off at elm? mr. mcwatters. well. i just studied and tried to remember everything that i could. in other words, i still, you know, just try to see if i could remember any incidents or anything that was said or done that i hadn't thought of and everything. senator cooper. i think you stated you did not give the teenager any transfer? mr. mcwatters. no, i don't--no. senator cooper. was the fact then that you were shown a transfer by the police that called your attention to that? mr. mcwatters. i guess that would probably be---- senator cooper. another man? mr. mcwatters. that would probably be the reason. i don't know of any other reason that it would be unless it was the transfer, that i can recall. senator cooper. are you absolutely certain that you did see another man on that bus? mr. mcwatters. do you mean the day? senator cooper. a man other than the teenager? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir; i picked up a man. senator cooper. where? mr. mcwatters. along about griffin street that knocked on the door of the bus. senator cooper. is that near murphy? mr. mcwatters. that is near murphy, in other words, murphy is over here zig-zags, griffin zig-zags across to murphy. senator cooper. why was it then that when you made this affidavit, you wouldn't remember that a man knocked on the door to get in the bus? mr. mcwatters. just like i say, i guess it never did dawn on me until i just got to thinking about it and everything, and i had this boy, i mean was the one i was referring to in that affidavit right there. in other words, he was just kind of a slight build, so far as him and oswald, i guess they probably somewhere in the same size, i don't know. but i was mistaken in that, in other words, that was the boy right there---- senator cooper. did the police ask you if any man other than the teenager was on the bus? mr. mcwatters. i don't recall whether they did or not. senator cooper. did you tell the police at that time on the d or the federal bureau of investigation on the d about a man knocking on the window and wanting to get into the bus? mr. mcwatters. yes, i believe i did. senator cooper. what is it about this transfer that makes you know that it was a transfer which you issued? mr. mcwatters. well, you look at that old punch mark, i guess as many times as i have punched it---- senator cooper. does each--does each driver have a different punch? mr. ball. when you weren't here he showed us his punch and he punched it for us. he has got his punch. mr. mcwatters. each driver has a different punch. they all are registered. in other words, regardless of how many there are--that is my punch right there--there is some shape or form different, just like i say the superintendent has every man's name and a punch mark right on down, in other words, so when---- senator cooper. do you know whether the punches are different in the shape that they make? mr. mcwatters. no, sir; no, sir; i don't know anything about that. i know---- senator cooper. what you are saying is, then, you have punched so many of these transfer that you recognize your own punch? mr. mcwatters. i can recognize my own punchmark. i don't think there is supposed to be another---- senator cooper. is there anything else on the transfer which indicates that it was one which would be issued on your bus? mr. mcwatters. well, except only where it is punched--in other words, i come off of lakewood boulevard there where that would be the only distinction right there, is the punchmark and the name of where i have it punched there. senator cooper. did anyone tell you, either the police or the fbi or any other officer or any other person, tell you at the time you made your first affidavit or later that there was another man reported to have been on your bus and got off? mr. mcwatters. i don't recall. senator cooper. have you ever reported to the police the fact that you have carried as a passenger since november d the teenager whom you have now identified as having the name of milton jones? mr. mcwatters. did i ever report it to the police? senator cooper. yes. mr. mcwatters. no, sir. senator cooper. have they ever been back to talk to you any more about this? mr. mcwatters. no, sir. senator cooper. about this matter? mr. mcwatters. they have never been back to me. the only time they have talked to me---- senator cooper. did you ever see---- mr. mcwatters. i beg pardon? senator cooper. you saw--was any of the men in the police lineup ever identified to you as being lee oswald? mr. mcwatters. any men in the---- senator cooper. yes, i think you saw the men in the lineup, didn't you? mr. mcwatters. yes. senator cooper. before you were asked to select a man in the lineup, did the police or any officer identify any one of them as bearing the name of lee oswald? mr. mcwatters. no, sir; they never stated anything. senator cooper. later was he identified to you in any way? mr. mcwatters. was he identified to me? senator cooper. as being lee oswald? mr. mcwatters. no, they didn't tell me as far as saying, mentioning any name lee oswald, it was never, the name lee oswald, i don't believe was ever mentioned while we was back there. senator cooper. did you ever see this same man you call no. in the lineup again--did you ever go back there after that time and see this same person again? mr. mcwatters. no, sir. senator cooper. identified as no. ? mr. mcwatters. no, sir; i never did go back any more, that was the only time i was ever there was the one on november , about something in the afternoon. senator cooper. have you seen photographs of a man who is named in those photographs as being lee oswald? mr. mcwatters. have i saw them? senator cooper. yes, sir. mr. mcwatters. yes, sir. senator cooper. well, now, you have seen this young man, milton jones, several times since then? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir. senator cooper. now after having seen him several times since then, and having seen these photographs of the man who is identified as lee oswald---- mr. mcwatters. yes. senator cooper. does milton jones look like lee oswald? mr. mcwatters. well, they both, just like i say, about the same height, and same build, and everything, as far as identifying looking at a man in the face--of course, i know him now, distinctly. senator cooper. but at this time would you identify him as lee oswald from the photographs you have seen of lee oswald? mr. mcwatters. right now? senator cooper. yes. mr. mcwatters. no. at the time, i couldn't then, in other words, even from the recalling of what i seen him then, i mean just to say that the height and size of him, no, i wouldn't make the statement that i could now. senator cooper. are you certain that you did see some man who knocked on the window of your door of your bus and wanted to get in your bus at some point near murphy? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir; i am positive about that. there was---- senator cooper. you saw that man get off later? mr. mcwatters. yes. senator cooper. before you got to---- mr. mcwatters. before i got to lamar street, between poydras and lamar. senator cooper. that is all. mr. mcwatters. the best i can remember is that is where i issued two transfers. that is the best i can remember. mr. ball. to clear this matter up with your punch, you have your punch there, have you? mr. mcwatters. yes. mr. ball. that was issued to you by the dallas transit company? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir. mr. ball. does that make a different mark in a transfer than any other punch issued to any other driver in the dallas transit company? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir. mr. ball. it is a distinctive mark? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir; it is supposed to be, there is not supposed to be any driver that has a punch that makes a punchmark like my punch. mr. ball. so your supervisor could take this transfer and compare it with his list in his office? mr. mcwatters. that is right. mr. ball. and he could see mcwatters issued this transfer? mr. mcwatters. that is right; that is the way, if they have any complaint, any transfers brought in to him, he has a list. when he looked at the punchmark he knows the man's name, and his badge number. mr. ball. and this document here which is , you have identified that punchmark as the one made by your punch? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir; that punchmark was made by that punch right there. mr. ball. now, there are on this transfer two punches, there is one in p.m., and there is marked punch lakewood. now, the p.m., refers to the time? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir. mr. ball. but lakewood refers to a certain location on your run, doesn't it? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir. mr. ball. if this transfer was issued around the lamar area or st. paul--elm area, is there any place that you could punch and show that particular location? mr. mcwatters. no, sir. mr. ball. you always punch at the end of your destination? mr. mcwatters. yes, that is the usual procedure on it. mr. ball. now, on one side of lakewood is beckley, where is that? mr. mcwatters. well, that is on the opposite of town from---- mr. ball. the other side is capital. where is that? mr. mcwatters. capital, well, capital is in north dallas, i believe it is. mr. ball. are those beckley lines listed on the transfer on your run? mr. mcwatters. no, sir; i don't--you mean on the transfer? mr. ball. yes. mr. mcwatters. well, that is, in other words, we all--they have so many of the lines listed, in other words, i believe they have two divisions, i believe all the buses that work out of the east dallas division have---- mr. ball. we can make this pretty simple. you have on this transfer certain names. when you are running marsalis-ramona-elwood-munger, how many possible punches would--location punches would you make? mr. mcwatters. in other words, if i was--marsalis when i left the end of marsalis out there i would punch my transfer marsalis, if i left the end of ramona i would punch them ramona. in other words, that is so they can't ride them, in other words, they can't ride the transfer. mr. ball. now, lakewood is at one end of your run? mr. mcwatters. that is right. mr. ball. and marsalis-ramona-elwood is the other, is that right? mr. mcwatters. yes, sir. mr. ball. so you would punch one of those names? mr. mcwatters. going that way, while at marsalis, i would punch the lakewood when i would leave marsalis coming toward lakewood, i would have lakewood on the front of my bus but i would punch the transfer marsalis. mr. ball. i have no further questions. representative ford. thank you very much, mr. mcwatters. mr. mcwatters. thank you, gentlemen. testimony of william wayne whaley resumed mr. ball. mr. whaley. i have here an exhibit which i will mark . (the document was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. ball. is a photostat of a manifest of yours, and it is dated november , . i mark this . do you recognize that? mr. whaley. that is the original trip sheet. mr. ball. in your handwriting? mr. whaley. yes, sir; in my handwriting. mr. ball. i will offer this into evidence at this time, and the original trip sheet as exhibit no. . representative ford. so admitted. (commission exhibits nos. and were received in evidence.) mr. ball. i have here a bracelet which is marked . take a look at it and tell me if you have ever seen it before. mr. whaley. yes, sir; as near as i can tell that is the bracelet he was wearing the day i carried him, the shiny bracelet i was talking about. mr. ball. you mentioned the fact that the man who sat in the front seat of your cab, which you drove from the greyhound station on lamar street over to north beckley, had an identification bracelet on him. mr. whaley. yes, it looked like an identification bracelet. it looks like this one, sir, it was shiny, i couldn't tell exactly whether that was the bracelet or not. mr. ball. but it looks like one of them? mr. whaley. yes, sir; it looks like it. mr. ball. offer this in evidence. representative ford. so admitted. (commission exhibit no. was withdrawn and a photograph of the bracelet was received as commission exhibit no. -a.) representative ford. what hand or what arm did he have it on? mr. whaley. he had it on the arm next to me, which was the left arm. representative ford. was it protruding below the sleeve or jacket? mr. whaley. his coatsleeve was like this when he stretches his arm out it was short, that is when i saw it. representative ford. where was his hand when you saw it, if you can recollect it? mr. whaley. well, just moving. you know you catch any bright object, why you notice it, that is how i noticed it. he was just moving his hand around. when the old lady stuck her head in the door and asked me to call her a cab, why he reached over to the door to open it like he told her she could have that one but she decided that she would wait for the next one because he already had that one. and that is when i saw it, sir. in the picture, i believe, i don't think he had it on in that picture in the paper the next morning. representative ford. this is something you clearly noticed while he was riding in the car with you? mr. whaley. yes, sir; i noticed it; yes, sir. i always notice watchbands, unusual watchbands, and identification bracelets like these, because i make them myself. i made this one. representative ford. in other words, you have a particular interest in them? mr. whaley. yes, i particularly notice things like that. representative ford. did you notice anything unusual about it? mr. whaley. no, sir, it was just a common stretchband identification bracelet. a lot of them are made of chain links and not stretchbands. stretchbands are unusual because there is very few of them. representative ford. in other words, this was an unusual band? mr. whaley. yes, sir; this one was a stretchband like the one you showed me. representative ford. it is sort of a hobby with you to make these kinds of wristbands? mr. whaley. yes, sir; i make watchbands like that. mr. ball. do you recall when you told, talked to the dallas police officers that you told them that you had seen a heavy identification bracelet on this passenger's wrist? mr. whaley. yes, sir, i told them about the bracelet. mr. ball. you told the fbi officers, also? mr. whaley. yes, sir; but i don't remember saying it was heavy because i wouldn't have known how heavy it was without handling it. mr. ball. you described the bracelet? mr. whaley. i just described the bracelet as a shiny bracelet. mr. ball. a moment ago you told us about this man getting into your cab and an old lady coming up and asking for a cab. mr. whaley. yes, sir. mr. ball. did the man sitting next to you open the door? mr. whaley. he just started to, sir, just reached for door handle and she said she wanted me to call one. she didn't want that. mr. ball. did the man who was sitting beside you in the cab say anything? mr. whaley. only that she could have that one. mr. ball. he said that? mr. whaley. yes, sir. mr. ball. i think that is all. any other questions of this witness? did you describe the shirt that this man had on to the police? mr. whaley. yes, sir, i did. mr. ball. what did you tell them? mr. whaley. to the best of my ability, i did, sir. i just told them it was a dark colored shirt with what looked like a silver lining. mr. ball. were you shown the shirt later? mr. whaley. about, it was at least a week later, sir, an fbi man brought the shirt over and showed it to me. mr. ball. is that the same shirt you saw here? mr. whaley. i think it is, sir. i am not positive but it had the same kind of silver streak in it. mr. ball. what did you tell the fbi man who brought the shirt to you? mr. whaley. i told him to the best of my ability that was the shirt he had on. mr. ball. did the man riding with you say anything at all except tell you where he wanted to go? mr. whaley. that is all, sir, except he said when we got to where he wanted to go he said, "this will do fine," when i pulled over. mr. ball. now, in the police lineup now, and this man was talking to the police and telling them he wanted a lawyer, and that they were trying to, you say he said they were trying to, frame him or something of that sort---- mr. whaley. well, the way he talked that they were doing him an injustice by putting him out there dressed different than these other men he was out there with. mr. ball. now, did anyone, any policeman, who was there, say anything to him? mr. whaley. yes, sir; detective sergeant leavelle, i believe it was, told him that they had, would get him his lawyers on the phone, that they didn't think they were doing him wrong by putting him out there dressed up. representative ford. did the man you identified have any reaction when they brought the group out, did he have any reaction that you noticed at the time you identified him? mr. whaley. only that he was the only one that had the bruise on his head, sir. the only one who acted surly. in other words, i told this commission this morning you wouldn't have had to have known who it was to have picked him out by the way he acted. but he was the man that i carried in my taxicab. i told them when i identified him. i didn't identify him as the man who shot the president. i identified him as the man who rode from the greyhound to north beckley with me. representative ford. did you point him out with your hand? mr. whaley. no, sir; i did not. they asked me which number he was standing under and he was standing under no. . representative ford. could he hear you make this identification? mr. whaley. no, sir; he couldn't see me. representative ford. he couldn't see you? mr. whaley. no, sir; they had the black silk screen that keeps the prisoners from seeing the people who show up. mr. ball. i have no further questions. senator cooper. i have no questions. mr. ball. do you know a taxi driver named darrell click? mr. whaley. i may know his face, sir, but not his name. mr. ball. you don't know his name? mr. whaley. we go mostly by numbers. mr. ball. okay, no further questions. the witness is excused. representative ford. may we wait just a moment, please? would you like to make a statement, mr. powell? mr. powell. mr. chairman, i think i might say just this: i am here representing mr. walter craig, as i think the commission understands. i have been here the last two days. in a conversation with mr. rankin yesterday morning we agreed that rather than my asking questions directly of witnesses, i would make suggestions to mr. ball or to one of his associates, and i have been following that practice yesterday and today, after consulting with mr. murray who is also here for mr. craig, and mr. ball and his associates have followed up these suggestions that we have made. representative ford. the suggestions you have made have been transmitted to mr. ball or his associates and have been asked of the various witnesses? mr. powell. that is correct. representative ford. any other questions? thank you very much, mr. whaley. mr. whaley. thank you, sir. i am glad to be able to be of service. (whereupon, at : p.m., the president's commission recessed.) _friday, march , _ testimony of mrs. katherine ford, declan p. ford, and peter paul gregory the president's commission met at : a.m. on friday, march , , at maryland avenue ne., washington, d.c. present were chief justice earl warren, chairman; representative gerald r. ford, member. also present were wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel; norman redlich, assistant counsel; and charles murray, observer. testimony of mrs. katherine ford the chairman. the commission will be in order. mrs. ford, i would just like to read to you a short statement concerning the purpose of the meeting. i think you have had a copy of it but i will just read it for the record. mrs. ford. yes, sir. the chairman. the purpose of this hearing is to take the testimony of mr. and mrs. declan p. ford and mr. peter paul gregory. the commission has been advised that mr. and mrs. ford made the acquaintance of the oswalds shortly after their arrival in the united states in june of , and that mrs. marina oswald lived in the ford home on two different occasions in november , and for a period following february , . the commission has also been advised that mr. gregory was contacted by mr. lee harvey oswald shortly after mr. oswald's return from russia as a result of which mr. and mrs. oswald made the acquaintance of a large number of russian-speaking people in the dallas and fort worth area. since the commission is inquiring fully into the background and possible motive of lee harvey oswald, the alleged assassin, it intends to ask the above witnesses questions concerning mr. oswald, his associations and relations with others and any and all other matters relating to the assassination. would you please rise and be sworn, mrs. ford. do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before the commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mrs. ford. i do. the chairman. you may be seated. mr. liebeler will conduct the examination. mr. liebeler. would you state your full name for the record, please? mrs. ford. my maiden name? mr. liebeler. yes. mrs. ford. katrina evstratova. mr. liebeler. where were you born, mrs. ford? mrs. ford. nova tchkarsk. mr. liebeler. could you tell us just briefly how you came to come to the united states, mrs. ford? mrs. ford. how i came to the united states; i was in germany during the war. i was taken there by germans, not in concentration camps, but in labor camp, and after we were liberated by americans i got acquainted with an american soldier and was married to him, and that is how i came straight to dallas. mr. liebeler. what was this soldier's name that you married? mrs. ford. skotnicki. mr. liebeler. and you were married to him in about ? mrs. ford. that is correct. mr. liebeler. and you subsequently divorced him? mrs. ford. approximately years ago, a little over years. mr. liebeler. i want to ask you a few questions about mr. skotnicki and some of the people that he knew. do you still have any friends that were your friends when you were married to mr. skotnicki? mrs. ford. yes; i would think, some neighbors, i would say that we would be still--we don't see together, acquaintances together with those friends but i am sure they are still friendly. he is still friendly with the same people as i am. i would say campbells down on lane, the old house still stands there i would think he would still be friendly with them, and i know them very well. mr. liebeler. you don't continue to see mr. skotnicki in any way, do you? mrs. ford. no, no; i have no reason for it. mr. liebeler. do you know whether or not mr. skotnicki has a friend by the name of john m. grizzaffi? that is spelled g-r-i-z-z-a-f-f-i. mrs. ford. i think that he is friends, yes. it is a neighbor across the street. he was friendly with that man. mr. liebeler. would you tell us just a little bit about mr. grizzaffi, if you know about him? mrs. ford. i think he is in grocery business, that is what i know about him, and i believe, i wouldn't say he is busy in local politics but he is always talking about people he knows around town that are in politics, and that is about all i know. i was never very friendly with his wife and so i just know a little bit about him. mr. liebeler. do you know whether mr. grizzaffi is a friend of jack ruby's? mrs. ford. that i don't know. i was told by my son that mr. grizzaffi knew ruby. mr. liebeler. your son told you that? mrs. ford. my young son. mr. liebeler. what is you son's name? mrs. ford. my son's name is gary. mr. liebeler. how old is he? mrs. ford. twelve. mr. liebeler. he is a son by mr. skotnicki? mrs. ford. yes. mr. liebeler. is he living with you and mr. ford? mrs. ford. he lives with me. mr. liebeler. do you know whether mr. skotnicki knew the oswalds? mrs. ford. no; i don't think he did. mr. liebeler. do you know whether he knew anything about the oswalds? mrs. ford. unless something was told by my son or something, by children. i don't think he knew them personally. mr. liebeler. you yourself didn't have any conversations with mr. skotnicki about the oswalds? mrs. ford. no. mr. liebeler. i want to go through a list of names which i will go through fairly quickly and ask you if you recognize any of these names or if you know any of the people. do you know a gentleman by the name of george senator? mrs. ford. no; i don't. mr. liebeler. how about a man by the name of ralph paul? mrs. ford. no. mr. liebeler. andrew armstrong? mrs. ford. no. mr. liebeler. do you know a lady by the name of karen bennett? mrs. ford. no. mr. liebeler. bruce carlin? mrs. ford. no. mr. liebeler. do you know a man by the name of roy william pike? mrs. ford. no. mr. liebeler. how about larry crafard? mrs. ford. no. mr. liebeler. you yourself don't know jack ruby in any way? mrs. ford. no. mr. liebeler. does mr. ford know mr. ruby? mrs. ford. no; i don't thing so; no. mr. liebeler. do you know a lady by the name of earlene roberts? mrs. ford. no. mr. liebeler. mary bledsoe? mrs. ford. no. mr. liebeler. bertha cheek? mrs. ford. no. mr. liebeler. john carter. mrs. ford. no. mr. liebeler. how about mr. and mrs. a. c. johnson? mrs. ford. a. c. johnson, i don't think so. mr. liebeler. do you know of any connection between mr. oswald, lee harvey oswald and jack ruby? mrs. ford. no; i don't know. i don't know that they knew each other. mr. liebeler. would you tell the commission, mrs. ford, how you first met the oswalds? mrs. ford. we were invited there after lunch, the oswalds had a luncheon at anna meller's house, and we were invited after luncheon to meet them, and that was our first contact with them. mr. liebeler. can you tell me when that was, approximately? mrs. ford. i would say it was approximately at the end of august of . mr. liebeler. will you tell us who was at the luncheon? mrs. ford. i believe there was mr. and mrs. ted meller and george bouhe and the oswalds and ourselves, i believe that is all i remember. mr. liebeler. who first told you about the oswalds? did you hear of them the first time that you came to that luncheon or had you heard of them before? mrs. ford. i had heard of them maybe a couple of weeks before from mr. george bouhe, i believe, who had told us that there was a young russian girl came to fort worth and the man was out of a job, and that was the reason for us to try to help them. and she had a baby and so forth. mr. liebeler. did mr. bouhe tell you anything else about the oswalds? mrs. ford. no; he was just telling that the man was having a very hard time finding a job because the last job he had was in minsk or so. mr. liebeler. he told you that mr. oswald had been in russia? mrs. ford. yes; he did. he told us about that he was in russia and decided to come back and he brought a russian wife with him who didn't speak english and had a tiny baby and both were having a very hard time at the moment. mr. liebeler. did mr. bouhe tell you anything about the circumstances under which mr. oswald went to russia? mrs. ford. no; nothing like that was discussed. mr. liebeler. at the luncheon at which you and your husband, and mr. and mrs. meller---- mrs. ford. yes. mr. liebeler. and mr. bouhe were present---- mrs. ford. yes. mr. liebeler. what was said at that time? mrs. ford. at the time we were present, actually, i was only interested in economic conditions of russia at the moment, for me to compare them with the time i was living there, and they were showing some pictures of minsk and leningrad and some of the pictures of some of the friends of marina's friends, girl friends. (at this point, representative ford entered the hearing room.) mr. liebeler. did you have any conversations with the oswalds at that time about the kind of apartment that they had when they lived in minsk? mrs. ford. i don't remember any particulars about that apartment, but they were talking about, i think, about the apartment, i don't know exactly what was said about it. i know it was, i think i remember they were saying they lived in one room and sharing a kitchen. mr. liebeler. did they tell you how they came to meet each other in russia and how they came to be married? mrs. ford. it wasn't said at that particular time, but i remember marina was telling me afterwards how they came to meet each other, and i believe it was at a dance some place at the hall of culture or some place they would have in russia dances, and she met him there. mr. liebeler. of the people that were at this luncheon, aside from yourself, how many of them were originally born in russia? mrs. ford. mr. bouhe and i believe and mr. meller would be--i believe ted meller was born in poland. mr. liebeler. did it appear to you at the time of that luncheon that lee harvey oswald lived like other russian people lived or did it appear that he might have received preferential treatment in some way. did you gather an impression about that during the course of your conversation? mrs. ford. yes; i believe he was still in something of a hardship in living in russia, that was the reason for his leaving russia. that it was rather difficult to make his ends meet as we say, because he was comparing it with his living standards of marina's uncle who was a colonel or a major, i don't know, i wouldn't say because i don't know. he was saying that they had a very lovely apartment consisting of maybe four or five rooms and he was comparing it with his apartment, and such. mr. liebeler. did he compare his apartment with the apartment of other workers who worked in minsk? mrs. ford. no; i don't think so. he was just comparing, i believe with her uncle. mr. liebeler. did he tell you how much money he was paid at his job? mrs. ford. i don't remember, he was saying or marina was saying something, rubles, i don't know which one gave me that. mr. liebeler. did he indicate whether that was about the same that other people were paid or more? mrs. ford. yes; about the same as the workers were paid. mr. liebeler. now, is there anything else you can remember about that luncheon, the conversation at that luncheon which you would like to tell the commission about other than what we have already touched on? mrs. ford. well, i don't know what was important. i know he was saying--my husband made a sort of a joking statement that he had a child born in russia, and he said, well, if it wasn't for the americans she wouldn't be born over there because he had to wait so long to get a visa, i don't know what else he said. mr. liebeler. that was a visa for him to return? mrs. ford. yes; and the little girl, june, was born there because of that. mr. liebeler. and lee oswald blamed the americans for causing the delay? mrs. ford. yes. mr. liebeler. did he indicate what attitude the russian authorities took when he told them he wanted to come back to the united states? mrs. ford. no; i don't know. he didn't say anything. i don't remember discussing it. mr. liebeler. did he say anything about the attitude they took toward letting marina leave russia and coming to the united states? mrs. ford. i don't believe anything was said about that. mr. liebeler. is there anything else you can remember about that luncheon now you think we ought to know about? mrs. ford. well, i am thinking, i really don't think i remember anything else. mr. liebeler. what was the next contact then that you had with the oswalds? mrs. ford. i think it must have been at--in late october or the first part of november when mr. bouhe called me and said that marina made a call to anna meller and told her she is leaving her husband because of she can't stand the beating and treatment any longer from lee oswald, but none of us knew at the moment that he had mistreated her that way, but at the time at the party i remember seeing marina with bruises on her face and she made excuses of running into a door or something at the night when attending the baby. mr. liebeler. this was the first time you saw her? mrs. ford. that is right, the first time i saw her i did see bruises on her face. and george bouhe was saying that anna meller, i don't know who picked her up, i believe george bouhe because anna meller don't have a car, they went to marina's apartment and picked up the baby things, playpen, and other things that she could take with her at the time, and she stayed there, i couldn't say how many days. mr. liebeler. stayed with mrs. meller? mrs. ford. with mrs. meller, i don't think it was longer than a week, and then my husband was supposed to go away for a week or so; i don't remember the time, i thought he was going--he said he had to go austin and i told mr. bouhe that i could take her for a week, just take her in, if she didn't have a place to go, so i did, and she stayed with me. mr. liebeler. why did she come to you as opposed to staying with anna meller? mrs. ford. anna meller has a small two-room apartment and i have a bigger house. we have four bedrooms so i could make room for her and her children. mr. liebeler. when mr. bouhe called you and told you about this, did he tell you anything about why marina was leaving lee oswald? mrs. ford. yes; he said because of mistreatment and she decided she is not going to return to him any longer, and mr. bouhe said, told her, if she made a promise to him she is not going to return to that man he will help her all he could to find a place to stay permanently such as maybe as help at home at somebody's house until she learns enough english to start going on her own whatever she could do. and i think he was trying to do, he was trying to find a place and that is the reason before that she needed a place to stay until she did find a place, and i kept her for a week until my husband returned and then another friend of mine, who also has a fairly large place where marina could be comfortable, she told me she could keep her there for as long as marina wished to stay. mr. liebeler. how did marina actually get to your place? did mr. bouhe bring her to your place? mrs. ford. yes; he did. mr. liebeler. do you know how long marina stayed with anna meller before she came to your place? mrs. ford. it could be a week but i am not sure. but i don't think it is longer than a week. mr. liebeler. did lee oswald come to see marina while marina was at your house? mrs. ford. no; he did not but he did talk to her on the telephone, i think approximately after days, after she stayed with me he called her up every night, i think he did call, every evening. mr. liebeler. did marina talk to him on the telephone? mrs. ford. she was hesitating at first but he wouldn't leave the telephone until she came to telephone and she was talking to him. i didn't hear what he was saying but she was telling him not to call on her again and not to bother, she was not going to return to him. mr. liebeler. did she tell you what the conversations were about? mrs. ford. no. she did not say anything. representative ford. when was this period that she stayed with you, october and november of ? mrs. ford. i believe it must have been the first part of november. representative ford. of ? mrs. ford. . representative ford. . mrs. ford. that is correct. mr. liebeler. now, did marina oswald pay you anything for the privilege of staying at your home at that time? mrs. ford. no; i did not expect it. mr. liebeler. was there any arrangement she would work in the house? mrs. ford. no; there was no arrangement; no. mr. liebeler. tell us what marina told you while she was staying there about her relations with lee oswald and particularly as to why she separated from him and what the difficulties were in their marriage? mrs. ford. i think mostly it was a mistreatment by him that she couldn't stand any longer, she was saying. mr. liebeler. mistreatment by him? mrs. ford. mistreatment by him; yes. that is what she was saying. mr. liebeler. did she tell you any more specifically than that what the problem was? mrs. ford. no; she didn't really. she did not elaborate. she did not go into explanations of their living together. mr. liebeler. did she mention that lee oswald was jealous of the russian friends that marina had? mrs. ford. yes; she did. she told me that, that he was. mr. liebeler. did they argue about that? mrs. ford. well, i didn't know if they were arguing about that. i know she said that he was very jealous of them helping marina and jealous for the reason that he wasn't able to provide her at the time with any of the things that they were giving marina, clothes, and baby clothes, and i think that he was--it was making him rather mad because he said he was unable to buy the things for her at the time, and i know that he was not accepting things people were giving him. he was telling her not to take them but she was taking them because she needed them. i suppose they were arguing about that but i don't remember the particulars. mr. liebeler. did you form an impression at the time that marina lived with you for that week as to what the cause of their difficulties might be? mrs. ford. she mentioned one time that soon after marriage he told her he didn't love her any more in any way. so i don't know what is the difficulty, i don't know if that is what she mentioned. she did not explain and didn't go into explanations of this. mr. liebeler. do you think, did you form an opinion as to whether this separation and the difficulties they were having was primarily the result of oswald's behavior or did you think marina might have been partially responsible for it, what did you think? mrs. ford. my own opinion was that marina was responsible for it. i think marina was and i think now she is a rather immature girl. the chairman. she is what? mrs. ford. i think she is rather immature in thinking. the chairman. oh, yes. mrs. ford. and a lot of times she agreed herself about provoking him in a way by arguing about his mother or things of some sort. mr. liebeler. what did she tell you about arguments concerning his mother? mrs. ford. well, i don't know really. she would say something that he was badly brought up or something like that. representative ford. he was what? mrs. ford. badly brought up, some sort of thing, and he would get mad and slam her for that or something and then he was telling her not to let mother in, and when mother comes to the apartment she would let her in and then they would argue over that. representative ford. he would tell her not to let the mother in? mrs. ford. that is right, and she would because she said she just couldn't do that. mr. liebeler. did marina tell you at that time what her feelings toward lee's mother were? mrs. ford. i don't remember her saying anything one way or the other if she liked her or didn't. mr. liebeler. do you remember whether marina might have mentioned that lee oswald had spoken to a neighbor and told the neighbor that marina was from czechoslovakia? mrs. ford. no; i don't know of anything like that. mr. liebeler. you didn't know at any time that oswald didn't want people to know that his wife was from russia? marina didn't mention that? mrs. ford. not around us, we didn't because we knew it anyway. mr. liebeler. marina didn't mention anything like that to you? mrs. ford. no. mr. liebeler. when marina lived with you during that time did she tell you anything about her background in russia, did she tell you about her birthplace and youth in russia? mrs. ford. yes; she was going into more of that in talking with me more than anything else, i think. actually most of the time she was talking about her friends during, i think about when she was going to school, about her boy friends and things she was talking to me about her friends and she did go into talk about when she lived in, let's see, it is not ukraine, i think it is bessarabia, right now where would that place be, to live there, and she was very young, i believe, let's see she was born during the war, and they were sent somewhere, i don't know where they were sent, but then she lived there in bessarabia for a few years, because there was a lot of food there and vegetables and they were sent there, to feed, like they sent the cattle to be fed up, i believe that is the expression she used after the war where the children could eat a lot of fruit and then she returned to leningrad, i believe. i don't know how long she lived in bessarabia. mr. liebeler. what did she tell you about her life in leningrad, just briefly, if you will summarize it for us. mrs. ford. well, really, i don't know--the only thing i knew was about some of the things she was telling me about friends she had there, she had a friend that was a medical student and she told me she talked a lot on the telephone to him, and she was rather, i thought that is where i made the impression to me, it made an impression to me she was immature, she liked to talk to the man for a long time in the evening but she was afraid to be seen with him in the streets, he was ugly, so i thought it was rather strange, you know, and then---- mr. liebeler. did she tell you who she was living with in leningrad? mrs. ford. yes; she was living with her stepfather, that is what i remember, living with a stepfather she was telling me. mr. liebeler. did she tell you about her relations with her stepfather? mrs. ford. yes; she did. she didn't like him and i think he doesn't like her, either; they never did. mr. liebeler. did she tell you any reasons why she did not like him? mrs. ford. she was telling me a lot of times, she was telling me about her mother, the mother didn't want to show affection to marina or something like that because the father was jealous of that affection, and i think he did some sort of a cruel thing to her once that she doesn't--she still remembers as being very cruel, something of accusing her of taking some family silver and selling it while she knows that he had pawned the silver for buying liquor, because it showed up, she couldn't explain it to her aunt and it just made her feel very bad at that time. i think she just could never forgive him for that. mr. liebeler. did marina tell you about her move to minsk? mrs. ford. well, she didn't tell me at that time. i just found it out not too long ago that was the reasons she wanted to get away from a friend that she found out later that he was married, she went with him for a short while she did not know he was married, but she did not go into particulars of explaining the whole thing to me. representative ford. she was going with a man who was married? mrs. ford. yes. she met him somewhere, she had two tickets, she said, to a theater or to a movie, and she wanted to sell one ticket and he was the person who bought the ticket and they sat together in a movie house and later on, i believe, i don't know how they got to know each other later on, it was a few times they met, they have seen each other and at one time she went to his apartment, to the house that he lived, to call on him, and someone said that, "oh, that is the man who has that little boy," and she said she just turned around and went home. that is the time she found out he was married and was deceiving her. but i don't know why she left, i mean why, exactly she left but i think this is the person that was her reason for leaving leningrad. mr. liebeler. did she tell you that she had left in part at least to get away from this man? mrs. ford. that is what i understood. mr. liebeler. now, did marina tell you why she married lee oswald when she was in russia, did she talk to you about that? mrs. ford. yes; she did. i don't exactly know why she married him. but she said she met him at a dance, and soon after that, i don't know the reason why he was in the hospital but he was in a hospital, and she called on him, and i don't know how long he stayed there, either, and she liked the man, i think, and she bought him an easter egg, that was during easter sometime and he was very surprised that such a thing could be done in russia. i think it rather pleased him very well. she said somehow she felt sorry for the man because none of her friends liked him, and mistrusted him, and she felt sort of like she was on the defensive, she wanted to, she felt sorry for him in a way. representative ford. did she tell you why her friends didn't trust him? mrs. ford. yes; she said they were thinking that he was an american spy or something like that, that is what they were trying to tell her. "maybe he is a spy, and how can you trust a man like that?" she told me the other day, she says no one trusted him, but she says, "i wasn't afraid of him," that is how she put it. representative ford. did marina indicate to you whether she thought or had any reason to believe that oswald was a spy? mrs. ford. no; she didn't. she didn't think so. she never said that, i mean. representative ford. did marina ever indicate to you or did you gather that one of the reasons that marina married lee oswald was she had the possibility of leaving the soviet union in mind? mrs. ford. yes. she never did go out directly and say that but i think i got an impression that was her reason. she was telling me that way before she met oswald she was dreaming of coming over here, and that is, i mean gathering by that later i thought that she wanted to come over, and he was, i suppose he was a reason. mr. liebeler. in this connection, i wanted to ask you whether you ever had any contact with any newspaper reporters from the dallas newspapers about this, did they ask you about this at any time? mrs. ford. about this i don't remember if they asked me. i don't remember. but a couple of reporters came to my house soon after the assassination and talked to me. mr. liebeler. i represent to you that there was a story in the november , , issue of the dallas times herald which told about some russian-born woman in dallas to whom marina had supposedly confided some of the most intimate secrets of her stormy marriage, in the words of the newspaper article. do you have any knowledge whether that would be you or somebody else? mrs. ford. i think that would be me. mr. liebeler. did you tell the reporters that marina had told you that marina had felt sorry for oswald because everybody hated him even in russia? mrs. ford. yes; i might have said that. mr. liebeler. marina did say that to you? mrs. ford. yes; she did. mr. liebeler. did marina tell you anything at this time about their trip back to the united states and the difficulties that they encountered, or how they did it, that sort of thing? mrs. ford. no; i never talked with her about that. mr. liebeler. was there any conversation while marina stayed with you during that week in november , about the possibility of a divorce, of her divorcing lee oswald? mrs. ford. the possibility--i know she didn't want to go back to him at the time she stayed with me. mr. liebeler. but you don't remember any specific conversation? mrs. ford. no; i don't remember any specific conversation. mr. liebeler. about divorce? mrs. ford. frankly, there was talk about it, she didn't want to go back and i just told her, i felt that marina wasn't really the domestic type she could stand very long being a help at home, not that i think she is not capable of taking care of her own house. i see now since she has got even her own place she keeps it very clean and her children are always neat. but she wasn't right for domestic help and i told her to stay with lee, that is what i told her myself, and wait until she could be able to take care of herself other than working in a house. mr. liebeler. what did she say about that? mrs. ford. she didn't say, she was really just listening, i think, and she didn't say anything. mr. liebeler. did marina say anything to you at this time about wanting to go back to russia? mrs. ford. no, no; she didn't want to. in fact, she told me that lee soon after he came to the united states, he was telling her that he would want to go back because he couldn't find a job here and he was, of course, seeing a lot of difficulties for himself, and marina said, "if you want to go back, you can go but i am not going," that is what she told me. mr. liebeler. marina told lee if he wanted to go back he could but she wasn't going to go back to russia. mrs. ford. that is right. mr. liebeler. is that all the conversation that you had with her about going back to russia at that time? mrs. ford. that is right. that is about all. mr. liebeler. did you know where the oswalds lived at this time when marina came to the meller's house and then to your house? mrs. ford. no; i have never been at their apartment, and she couldn't tell me. i know she lived in oak cliff, the dallas section about southwest, i believe. mr. liebeler. in dallas? mrs. ford. yes. mr. liebeler. did you know whether marina had lived with a lady in fort worth before they came to dallas? mrs. ford. yes; i know they stayed there but i didn't talk to her during the time and i didn't visit her. i know she stayed at elena hall's house and i think elena had an accident just before that and she was--she stayed in bed most of the time. marina was helping her out. mr. liebeler. now, you had only seen lee oswald, up to this week that marina came to live with you, one time, is that correct? mrs. ford. that is correct. mr. liebeler. that was the meller's luncheon party? mrs. ford. that is correct. mr. liebeler. were you surprised on the basis of any judgment you might have made of lee oswald to learn that he had beaten his wife? mrs. ford. just from seeing him once i would not have made--no; that he has beaten his wife; no, i didn't think at that time. i did, when she came in after i learned that he has beaten her, i was rather--i remember the bruises on her face and that rather made signs to me that he did. mr. liebeler. did it surprise you that he would have done this? mrs. ford. no; it did not surprise me. i just felt that young man as he was, if he was--decided to go to russia after living in a country like the united states, i didn't feel he was very, what shall i say, how would you say, a person's mind won't work at this time---- the chairman. unstable? mrs. ford. unstable, that is how i felt. i felt a person like that, i felt frankly could do anything. representative ford. did she ever tell you that lee oswald was the cause of these bruises on her face? mrs. ford. well, she did tell me after she came to the house to stay with me. representative ford. that is what i mean? mrs. ford. that is right. representative ford. the bruises you saw on her face at the house she told you lee oswald was the cause? mrs. ford. yes, that is right. mr. liebeler. let's clarify that a little. did marina oswald have any bruises at the time she came to live in your house in november ? mrs. ford. no; that is right. but she stayed at anna meller's house for a week and when she came to anna meller's house i heard there were bruises at that time. mr. liebeler. did anna meller tell you that? mrs. ford. either anna meller or george bouhe told me that. i don't remember. mr. liebeler. and you yourself did see bruises on her face the first time? mrs. ford. i did see the first time; yes. mr. liebeler. did she tell you that lee oswald had given her those bruises? mrs. ford. that is right. mr. liebeler. she told you that when she stayed with you? mrs. ford. that is right. mr. liebeler. tell us the circumstances under which marina left your home in november of , where she went and what happened? mrs. ford. well, she stayed with me a week, and my husband came home on saturday, and we discussed with another friend of mine for marina to go to her house and stay there as long as she wanted, and i think sunday morning this friend of mine, anna ray, came with a station wagon and picked all her things up, her playpen she had for baby, and diapers and things, and took her to her house and i believe my husband was with her, too, at that time and that is how she left. mr. liebeler. now, do you know how long she stayed with the rays? mrs. ford. with the rays. i think she just stayed there, she had had dinner there, i believe she stayed one afternoon. i don't know how soon lee came there but he came soon over to the house, but marina said he cried and begged her to return, he would be nothing, if she didn't return, he would be finished, that is what he was telling her, and she said she just couldn't say, no to him. mr. liebeler. so she returned to oswald at that time? mrs. ford. yes; she returned to oswald. mr. liebeler. did you ever talk with the mellers about their experiences with marina when she lived at their house for that time? mrs. ford. no; i don't remember, she did not discuss it. mr. liebeler. did you remember or did you know where lee oswald was living prior to the time that marina came to dallas? mrs. ford. no; i don't know where he lived at any time. mr. liebeler. did you know where he was working at that time or if he was working at all? mrs. ford. during the time they lived in dallas, i believe, i don't know exactly, though, either george bouhe or anna meller's husband found him a job in a printing shop, i think, or i believe it is printing shop, somewhere in oak cliff, and that is why they had an apartment there. i remember that is the reason because george bouhe was rather mad at marina for taking an apartment in oak cliff because it was too far for him to drive and help her when she needed help and the baby, i think he was taking her to the dentist and taking the baby to a doctor to help her in ways that she couldn't do herself. representative ford. who was doing this driving? mrs. ford. i believe george bouhe did this. he has the car. mr. liebeler. where does mr. bouhe live? mrs. ford. he lives, well, i don't know his address now. i know where he lives but i don't know the street number. mr. liebeler. but it is not in the oak cliff section of dallas? mrs. ford. no; it is not. i think it would be in the east part of dallas. mr. liebeler. during the time that marina stayed with you, did she say anything to you about lee oswald's political beliefs or his attitudes concerning politics? mrs. ford. no; she didn't talk to me about that and i didn't ask her. frankly, i didn't talk with lee about that, i didn't feel the need of it myself to discuss politics with him. mr. liebeler. did you discuss that subject with any of your friends? mrs. ford. well, yes. they were telling me, those friends that went to his apartment, were telling me, that they have seen books like karl marx open in front of him, just lying there on the table, that he didn't even hide it when someone came in, and then someone else said there was a book laying there of how to be a spy, laying right open there. mr. liebeler. do you remember who told you that? mrs. ford. i believe it was lydia dymitruk. mr. liebeler. d-y-m-i-t-r-u-k. do you remember anything about that particular conversation? mrs. ford. well, she was telling me, she took, when the baby left my house, she had a cold, and it was getting worse, and i believe soon after she left anna ray, the baby began to have a fever, and lydia, i believe, i don't know how she got to go to her apartment, really, i don't know the reason she went there; she went there and wanted to take the baby to the doctor and she told me of an incident that says even marina was ashamed of lee because when she took her to the hospital lee was lying about that he didn't have a job at the time, which lydia knew that he did have. he didn't want to pay for the services, and people at the hospital was asking him how does he pay for the apartment and he was telling them that, "my friends were helping me," and marina just said something in russian that lydia remembers, "what a liar," you know, behind his back. mr. liebeler. did she say that so he could hear it? mrs. ford. i think so, because she said it aloud. mr. liebeler. and she said it in russian? mrs. ford. yes; she did. mr. liebeler. in front of lydia dymitruk? mrs. ford. yes; that is right, and lydia was rather mad about the whole thing and she said she is not going to help them any more if they are acting that way. the baby wasn't helped at the hospital. i think the hospital didn't want to take the child because the father couldn't pay, that is what i got, the father couldn't pay for it. mr. liebeler. did you ever see marina say anything adverse to oswald in his presence, did she run him down or make fun of him in public so far as you know? mrs. ford. as far as i know, i don't, except the first time, the one time, i would think when she said, "what a liar," in front of him. mr. liebeler. you don't know of any other instance when she would have done that? mrs. ford. i don't know of any other instance. mr. liebeler. do you know whether she ever spoke of his political views before other people or make fun of him? mrs. ford. no; i don't remember except lately i have been talking to her about that and she said she thought of him being young, and she thought she hoped it would pass with years, that he would mature, this is what she was telling me. mr. liebeler. did she tell you whether or not she discussed politics with him herself? did she argue with him about anything? mrs. ford. she said she was arguing with him about that. certainly, in fact, he called her, she was typical american girl, that she is not interested at all in politics, except in the material things that he wasn't interested in. she said she wanted a house and a family and he said, "all the american girls think that way" and he thought he married a different sort of a girl, a russian girl. mr. liebeler. now, think back on that week that marina stayed with you. is there anything else that happened or is there anything that marina told you that you think we should know about and about which i haven't already asked you? mrs. ford. i cannot think of it at the time. mr. liebeler. when was the next contact that you had with the oswalds'? mrs. ford. it was right after christmas before new year's. i believe it was the th of december, a friday. i gave, i had, a party for all the friends, and i invited a family by the name of de mohrenschildt, wife and husband, and mrs. de mohrenschildt called me up and asked me if she couldn't bring marina and her husband over because she was saying it is a shame the way all their russian friends have forsaken them during that time and they had no place to go and the de mohrenschildts were the only ones helping them at the time, and i told her i didn't object to it. so she brought them over with them. mr. liebeler. was mr. bouhe at the party? mrs. ford. yes; i think so. mr. liebeler. mr. and mrs. frank ray? mrs. ford. yes. mr. liebeler. mr. and mrs. thomas ray? mrs. ford. yes. mr. liebeler. were elena hall and her husband there? mrs. ford. i don't remember them being at that party. i don't think so. mr. liebeler. were the mellers there? mrs. ford. yes. mr. liebeler. you mentioned that de mohrenschildt was there. mrs. ford. yes. mr. liebeler. and the oswalds. mrs. ford. that is right. mr. liebeler. was there a gentleman by the name of allen a. jackson at the party? mrs. ford. yes. mr. liebeler. and his wife? mrs. ford. and his wife. mr. liebeler. do you remember any conversations or observe any conversations between marina oswald and mr. jackson? mrs. ford. marina oswald, no; i don't think so. i don't think marina spoke english at the time. mr. liebeler. were mr. and mrs. charles edward harris at the party? mrs. ford. yes. mr. liebeler. did you talk to mr. and mrs. harris about the party afterward? mrs. ford. i might have. mr. liebeler. did she mention translating a conversation between mr. jackson and marina oswald? mrs. ford. no; she did not mention it to me. mr. liebeler. and you didn't see her doing that? mrs. ford. no; i didn't see her doing that at the party. mr. liebeler. did you have any conversation with lee oswald at the party that night? mrs. ford. no. mr. liebeler. did you notice anybody else talking to him? mrs. ford. yes; i did. i noticed a girl talking to him who was of japanese descent but i don't remember her name. mr. liebeler. was there anything striking about that? mrs. ford. no; i think, the only thing it was that i think he talked to her most of the time and wasn't making any conversation with anyone else. mr. liebeler. did marina comment on that to you? mrs. ford. no; she didn't. but i heard from somebody else that she did comment. mr. liebeler. who told you that? mrs. ford. i think george bouhe again. he always spoke to everybody. mr. liebeler. what did mr. bouhe say about that? mrs. ford. well, he said something that i asked marina afterward and she told me that it wasn't true. he said that lee talked to that japanese girl like a--it is an expression in russia to take a bath and then beat themselves with the leaves from a tree, and the leaf would stick to the body, in the wintertime, and so the expression from that, like a leaf sticks to the hot body when you take a bath, you know. then i suppose lee struck her as just not saying anything--and i asked marina and she said he did not do it. mr. liebeler. was there any talk at the party about oswald's experiences in russia or his marriage to marina? mrs. ford. during the party? mr. liebeler. yes. mrs. ford. no; i didn't talk to him at all. mr. liebeler. and you didn't overhear anybody else talking about oswald's experiences in russia? mrs. ford. no. mr. liebeler. you mentioned that the oswalds came with de mohrensehildt. did they go home with de mohrensehildt? mrs. ford. yes; they did because mrs. de mohrensehildt stated that the lady who stayed with oswald's child had to leave at o'clock and they left before that. mr. liebeler. after the oswalds left the party, was there any discussion about the oswalds that you can remember? mrs. ford. no; really not. i don't think they made a big impression on that party on anybody. mr. liebeler. can you fix the date on which your party was held? mrs. ford. the th of december. mr. liebeler. what year? mrs. ford. . mr. liebeler. was there any other party the next day or the day after that? mrs. ford. there were other parties. i don't think that marina and her husband were present. i don't know if you would call it a party, there was a sort of a get-together at my house afterward because some people stayed over in town for a few days, i think that was the rays, and the harrises, and a friend of my husband from louisiana, sullivans, stayed there. but they hadn't met oswald, they came much later after o'clock. so we sort of had a get-together. mr. liebeler. this would have been the next day? mrs. ford. the next day. mr. liebeler. on the th of december. was mr. bouhe---- mrs. ford. no; mr. bouhe wasn't present at that time. mr. liebeler. was there any conversation at that time about oswald? mrs. ford. i don't remember, don't think so. mr. liebeler. do you remember that there was a party or open house at mr. bouhe's house on the th? mrs. ford. if there was, i wasn't present, i didn't go. mr. liebeler. was there a party at meller's house? mrs. ford. there was a party or luncheon. mr. liebeler. did you go? mrs. ford. no; i didn't go. mr. liebeler. did you hear any conversation during this period of or days about oswald, anybody speculating about oswald or discussing his experiences---- mrs. ford. no; i think---- mr. liebeler. in russia? mrs. ford. i think at that time everyone rather--george bouhe said he was not going to help them any more, he was through, since marina, he tried to help her very hard, and she did not hold her word about not going back to him. so he said since she went back, so now it is her problem. well, he is sort of that type of man, he is trying to help hard and if you are doing what he says otherwise he is not going to help, so that was it. so it was rather, sort of marina and her husband were dropped at that time, nobody actually wanted to help, and i think what they heard about lydia dymitruk was saying that he couldn't help those people. i mean they were just sort of--he couldn't reach them. he was lying in hospital and things, we sort of gave it up. mr. liebeler. did lydia make that remark at one of those parties or was that at a previous time? mrs. ford. oh, that was a previous time. as soon as she left to go back to her husband, george bouhe even took the russian dictionary back to him. he told her to give it back and he was just through with him. mr. liebeler. so far as you know mr. bouhe had no more contact with the oswalds after that? mrs. ford. no; i don't think so. mr. liebeler. did you have any conversation with any of your friends in dallas or fort worth on the question of oswald's ability to leave russia and come back to the united states and bring marina with him? mrs. ford. we didn't speculate on that until really later, until now, after the assassination that subject came up, and people asking why they left so soon. he was telling me it took them a year, so i don't know. mr. liebeler. was there any conversation prior to the assassination, during this period in , any speculation as to whether oswald might be an agent of any government? mrs. ford. no. i frankly didn't think he was capable of it. that was my feeling on it. mr. liebeler. were there any conversations on that? mrs. ford. no. there were not. mr. liebeler. do you remember that mr. bouhe suggested at one time that oswald was a mental case? mrs. ford. mr. bouhe, he might have; yes, i think we all thought that. mr. liebeler. do you remember that mr. bouhe said that? mrs. ford. i don't remember particularly that he would say that. the chairman. did you say, "we all thought that"? mrs. ford. yes; we thought that, that he was rather mentally--you just said the word before. the chairman. unstable? mrs. ford. unstable. mr. liebeler. unstable. why did you think that, mrs. ford? mrs. ford. in my own opinion, i just didn't think that a man as young as he was could come to the conclusions just by rather experiences or living a long time in america and i mean studying the whole economic structures of different governments, and things that he would come to the conclusion that is the best thing for him. i think he was just rather too young for that. i thought he was just rather--something was rather wrong with the man. mr. liebeler. you based this---- representative ford. in the conversation that oswald had with this japanese lady at your party, did you overhear any of that conversation? mrs. ford. no; i did not. i did not have time, i was the hostess and i just didn't get to talk to anyone. representative ford. did you ever ask the japanese lady what the gist of the conversation was or what the content of the conversation was? mrs. ford. no; i never have. in fact, i have not seen her after that. that was the first time she came to my house. i mean i have seen her later on in the beauty shop but i have never talked to her about it. representative ford. did she speak english? mrs. ford. yes; she speaks english well. representative ford. all right. mr. liebeler. at this get-together that you mentioned at your house on, i think it was the th, after the party, the informal get-together, the rays were there, and the sullivans, and mr. and mrs. harris. would it refresh your recollection if i suggested to you that some of the people that were there at that party said the possibility of oswald being a russian agent was discussed in detail at that party in that group? mrs. ford. no. mr. liebeler. you don't remember any of the discussion? mrs. ford. i don't remember any of the discussion. mr. liebeler. is there anything other than what you told us that led you to believe that oswald was unstable or a mental case? mrs. ford. nothing, except that i was thinking about him myself beating his wife. that would have been one reason. i don't think that any stable man would do that, especially she appeared to me very sick sort of a woman, not sick, but frail and fragile, i think any man who strikes a woman who is incapable of striking back, i would think would be unstable. mr. liebeler. this russian group that we have been discussing, mr. bouhe and these other people, do they see each other regularly? is there sort of a russian community in dallas, would you say? mrs. ford. yes; there are about, i think, maybe four families in fort worth and maybe half a dozen in dallas or more than that, but that mainly we see each other, and there is one eastern orthodox church in russia where that is where we actually meet each other. mr. liebeler. in dallas, you mean, or fort worth? mrs. ford. dallas. i am sorry. in dallas, and we still observe our eastern orthodox religion during the holidays and sometimes like christmas falls days after the american christmas so there is new year's sometimes we celebrate those. mr. liebeler. how well do you know the de mohrenschildts? mrs. ford. well, i know george de mohrenschildt the same, approximately, i will say i was acquainted with him for approximately years but i don't know him well. mr. liebeler. you mentioned before that de mohrenschildt was the only member of the russian community that kept on seeing the oswalds and trying to help them. was there any discussion about that among your friends? mrs. ford. yes; george de mohrenschildt is rather an odd ball, among russians anyway, so it was nothing unusual about him doing that. he was always doing something unusual. he would even go to church with shorts on, you know, this is something, he would do something that nobody else would do. mr. liebeler. shorts? mrs. ford. shorts. mr. liebeler. short trousers? mrs. ford. yes. mr. liebeler. do you remember any specific conversations about the reasons as to why de mohrenschildt continued to associate with the oswalds after the rest of you had given them up. mrs. ford. well, i remember his wife was telling me like she felt it was their duty now since everybody else dropped them and they needed help. mr. liebeler. do you remember any conversation with the oswalds among any of your friends as to whether or not oswald went hunting in russia and had access to weapons? mrs. ford. yes; i think that george bouhe was telling me that. he was telling him that he was going hunting and he told him about killing ducks or something of that type. mr. liebeler. can you remember that in any greater detail? mrs. ford. no; i don't remember it. i only remember that because of the way he was saying, "ducks" in russian, george was saying that he was using sort of a word when you call for it, it is a small duck rather than for ducks, he was saying that his russian wasn't perfect. i mean in that conversation he was using, an example of he was saying, when he would go hunting for ducks, instead of "utki" for ducks he would say "utitschki" that would mean small ducks, and he was saying that his russian was imperfect. mr. liebeler. that is oswald's russian? mrs. ford. that is right. mr. liebeler. what about marina's ability to speak english at that time, did she speak english at that time? mrs. ford. i don't think she did. she could speak a few words but i don't think she did. mr. liebeler. did any of you attempt to teach her english? mrs. ford. yes; george bouhe was attempting to teach her to write and was giving her lessons. mr. liebeler. can you tell us something about that? mrs. ford. well, he was telling me that he had gotten her a dictionary and he had--or some other book anyway and he was telling me that every time he saw her, made an attempt to see her i don't know how he did that but anyway he was giving her a lesson and she was supposed to have completed it by the next time in writing. mr. liebeler. did mr. bouhe tell you anything about marina's ability to speak english or write english? did marina learn as a result of that? mrs. ford. he said she was doing very well. i don't know if she learned to speak but he said she was a good student. mr. liebeler. did lee oswald ever object to this effort on mr. bouhe's part? mrs. ford. well, he was objecting to anyone of the russians helping her. mr. liebeler. helping her learn english? mrs. ford. not learning english, but i mean helping her about anything. i don't know whether he was objecting to that. but we talked with lee about this, why he wasn't teaching her english and he wasn't speaking to her and he said that he didn't want to forget russian and he really said, "if she wants," this is what marina said the other day, that he didn't actually object, but he thought if she could learn russian just by herself in any way she could, she could, but he is not going to help her. he just didn't want to help her by speaking english. mr. liebeler. you mean english. mrs. ford. that is right. he is not going to talk english with her, he wanted russian. he wanted for the little girl to learn russian and for himself not to forget it. mr. liebeler. did he indicate, in other words that he wanted marina to speak russian so that he could maintain his own ability in russian? mrs. ford. that is correct. mr. liebeler. and he also wanted his children to learn to speak russian? mrs. ford. that is right. mr. liebeler. after this party on the th of december, what was your next contact with either lee or marina oswald? mrs. ford. after the th? i think after the assassination, i only heard once about her, i just heard she went to new orleans. again a friend, lydia dymitruk, was in the bakery and she said she saw marina coming in and she told her she thought marina was pregnant and she told her marina was going to new orleans. that is the only time i have heard anything about them after that party. the next contact i had with her was, i don't know the date but it was soon after the assassination when i just felt sorry for marina, i thought she was, i always felt she was innocent, i thought she was a naive girl in a lot of ways and that is why she got into a lot of problems and troubles. i just felt if she didn't have anybody there except the fbi and nobody to speak in russian, she didn't know how everybody felt, i would think she would feel very badly, so i called mrs. paine who, i found out after the assassination she was a friend of marina's and i told her that if she would have a contact with marina, tell her that we sympathize with her that she is in the position that she is, and to call me or to let me--that i would like to talk with her. mr. liebeler. can you tell us approximately when it was that you talked to mrs. paine? mrs. ford. i think that was either the first part of december, i think it must have been at least a week after the assassination. mr. liebeler. in early december? mrs. ford. yes. mr. liebeler. what happened after that? mrs. ford. right after that, i think the next day marina called me, and she said the reason she called me was because mrs. paine told her that i called, and let her know. mr. liebeler. do you remember specifically that marina told you that she, marina, had talked to mrs. paine? mrs. ford. well, this, i don't know. i think that is what she did. in fact, i think that mrs. paine told me she talked on the telephone with marina but i couldn't be positive about it. i know she wrote letters, they wrote, i know mrs. paine wrote to marina, and i couldn't exactly say she talked to her on the telephone or how it was, either marina called mrs. paine or i don't know. mr. liebeler. you say you know marina wrote mrs. paine a letter? did marina tell you that she wrote mrs. paine during that period? mrs. ford. i don't remember. i know later mrs. paine kept calling me and asked if i heard from marina, because she kept writing to marina and marina didn't answer, so she wanted to know if i talked to her, that she was the reason she was calling me. mr. liebeler. did mrs. paine indicate to you after she called you trying to find out from marina, did she indicate to you she had or had not heard from marina since the assassination? mrs. ford. i believe she told me she talked on the telephone with her right soon after, after i did. mr. liebeler. during this first telephone conversation with marina, was there anything said about the events of the assassination in any way? mrs. ford. no; not at all, except that marina was very surprised the way people treated her. she was telling me that if it had happened in russia, she just would--she just knew she wouldn't be talking to me or anybody else. she knew they would be sent to siberia or shot right away is what she said. mr. liebeler. is that what marina said? mrs. ford. that is what she said. i told her that was the big difference in russian government and the american government. and then she asked me for advice. someone contacted her at the time from a western paper and offered her $ , or something for the story and she asked me if it was the right thing to do because she felt she didn't want to make money on such a thing, a horrible thing as that, and i advised her to take the money because i thought she would need it for the children. mr. liebeler. now, after that first--was there anything else you discussed in that telephone conversation? mrs. ford. no; i think we talked mostly about that book deal, about the offer she had. mr. liebeler. after that first telephone conversation, what was the next contact you had with marina? mrs. ford. that was quite a long time after that when it was again mrs. paine contacted me, and wanted to know if i could go and translate for them for, we were saying about that yesterday, what is that union. mr. liebeler. i did talk to you yesterday afternoon. mrs. ford. i have forgotten, i couldn't say because it is important. mr. liebeler. was it the american civil liberties union? mrs. ford. that is right, it was the american civil liberties union and i talked to my husband about that and he tried to find out; i told him to find out all he can if it had anything to do with a communist front or something and if it was i didn't want to do anything about it, to be connected with it, and he couldn't find anything out, but at the same time i told him that i did not want to go with them but i didn't mind translating. so i did translate and they wanted to know if marina was held incommunicado, and she answered. mrs. paine brought me that letter to translate from english to russian, and the man in charge, i don't know his name, i have forgotten his name, you mentioned it yesterday, if you say it i will remember it. mr. liebeler. let's come to that in a moment, let's develop the story first. how did the question of the american civil liberties first come up, did mrs. paine bring it up? mrs. ford. yes; that is right, because she tried to write letters to marina and she wouldn't answer and she thought she was held in sort of a protective custody and couldn't see anybody. that is what she felt, and she was rather imprisoned is what she thought. mr. liebeler. so mrs. paine came to you with a letter that was written in english, is that correct? mrs. ford. that is right. mr. liebeler. and she asked you to translate into russian? mrs. ford. that is right. mr. liebeler. was that a letter from mrs. paine to marina or a letter from the civil liberties union? mrs. ford. no; from civil liberties union. mr. liebeler. and so you translated that into russian? mrs. ford. that is right, i translated it into russian. mr. liebeler. up to that point was mrs. paine the only person who discussed that subject with you. mrs. ford. that is right. mr. liebeler. did you have any further discussions with mrs. paine or anybody else? mrs. ford. we tried to find out about the union and my husband called lawyers and friends of his who would know about it and called the secret service and fbi and nobody would tell us anything about it. they would send us somewhere else, refer it to someone else to find out, so we don't find out. so, i just decided on my own not to go, just to translate. mr. liebeler. well now, what is this about going with them, what did mrs. paine ask you? mrs. ford. she thought that maybe since i knew marina she would rather confide in me more than just anyone like reporters or someone just from the union would go there. mr. liebeler. but you declined to go with them? mrs. ford. yes. mr. liebeler. did there come a time when somebody else spoke to you about this subject? mrs. ford. no, not at all. just during that time i wanted to find out if she was in prison. mr. liebeler. did marina respond to the letter that you translated? mrs. ford. yes; they received an answer right the next day, and the man from richardson, who i think is the head of that union in dallas, came to my house and asked me if i could translate it back into english. mr. liebeler. do you remember that man's name? mrs. ford. no; if you mention it i would know. mr. liebeler. would it refresh your recollection if i mentioned the name of gregg olds? mrs. ford. that is right; yes, that is his name. mr. liebeler. what did mr. olds say to you when he came to see you? mrs. ford. he just brought the letter and he was rather standing and he wasn't talking very much. he was kind of a quiet person, i think. i took the letter--he thought i could just sit there and do it real fast in front of him, but i had to take it into a room and sort of concentrate in the living room and translated and giving it to him. he said, "thank you," and he left. mr. liebeler. can you tell us approximately when this was? mrs. ford. no; i cannot say. let's see. i think it was sometime before christmas, because after that i sent her a christmas card. no, wait a minute, i just can't say if it was before christmas or afterward, i don't remember. mr. liebeler. do you remember if it was before or after marina testified before this commission? mrs. ford. that was before the warren commission. mr. liebeler. it was before the warren commission? mrs. ford. that is right. mr. liebeler. did you talk to marina again on the telephone after this first time? mrs. ford. yes; i talked to her on the telephone because through my husband's brother who is a professor in one of the universities in california, he had a friend by the name of isaac levine who does write, who speaks russian and writes rather--he wrote a book of on the mind of the assassin, trotsky's story. he wanted to contact me and to find out if marina had signed a contract on writing a book. so i told him that i would call the managers, since there was published in the newspaper at that time, and to find out if they did, and i did call. i called her lawyer and i asked if she signed for a book, and i called levine long distance and told him she did not have a contract signed. then he told me that he would like--he wanted to know if he could arrange to see marina, and i told him that i would ask the manager and he told me to contact, for levine to contact, the attorney and the manager. i saw later on they have somehow gotten together. i think he wrote to them. mr. liebeler. did there come a time when marina came to your house to visit? mrs. ford. yes; she brought a letter she wanted me to translate. it was after this, after i had a contact about the writer marina called me, this is the first time, the first time after the assassination that she called me on the telephone and we talked about that and i told her that the man had contacted me and he speaks russian. i thought it would be a good opportunity for her to write if she wanted to since she could communicate easily with a writer that speaks russian. i read his book that he sent me, and he makes real sense. i invited her to come out to dinner and, of course, i didn't expect that there would be a whole company with her. mr. liebeler. did she come out? mrs. ford. yes; they did, they came out, the secret service and the manager were there and everybody so i cooked a russian dinner. mr. liebeler. can you tell us approximately when that was? mrs. ford. it was shortly before the commission, maybe about weeks before the commission. mr. liebeler. late in january sometime? mrs. ford. yes. mr. liebeler. during that time that marina was there did you have any discussion with her about the events of the assassination or anything relating to that? mrs. ford. no. mr. liebeler. did she discuss with you her possible testimony before this commission? mrs. ford. no, not during that time. mr. liebeler. did marina come back to your house again before she came to testify before the commission? mrs. ford. yes, she was once more at my house. during the first time her manager brought a letter that she wanted to bring to the governor about how she feels about ruby's being executed. she told me she didn't want, she didn't feel, if she could help she didn't want to have the killing of a dead man on her conscience, on her mind. she wanted me to translate that letter and i did translate it. and i left it at home and later on they came by, i told mr. martin that i would come by his house and bring the letter to her after i translated. he said, "if you wanted to we can come back to your house like we did before." and they did and they picked up the letter. mr. liebeler. do you have any copy of that letter? mrs. ford. i think maybe i have a copy of it, of my translation. but i am not positive. i know i put it in a desk. representative ford. this was a letter from whom to whom? mrs. ford. from marina to, i will say they did--i think it was advised to her to write it to the governor, to governor connally. representative ford. to governor connally? mrs. ford. yes. mr. liebeler. to the present governor of texas, that is the governor of texas? mrs. ford. yes. mr. liebeler. you said that marina said to you she did not want to have another death on her conscience? mrs. ford. that is right. she feels like, she told me she feels strongly about it, that people shouldn't kill one another, if there is no war. mr. liebeler. did she use the words as you remember it, the words "on her conscience"? mrs. ford. no; i don't remember that word really but i just feel this was, she would feel very badly if that would happen. mr. liebeler. did she seem to feel that she had some responsibility for these things? mrs. ford. what do you mean by that? i mean how, responsibility in what way? mr. liebeler. that she was in anyway a cause of any of these deaths herself? mrs. ford. no; i wouldn't think she feels this way, no. mr. liebeler. tell us about the conversations at the second meeting. were there any conversations at that time about her testimony before the commission or about the assassination? mrs. ford. i believe she mentioned she was going to washington at that time. she knew about going, i believe martin said that. mr. liebeler. but she didn't talk about her testimony? mrs. ford. no; she didn't, not at all she didn't. mr. liebeler. did you talk to anybody else about her testimony before the commission? mrs. ford. i don't know, i don't think so. mr. liebeler. did mr. martin say anything about it? mrs. ford. no; i don't remember, i don't know. mr. liebeler. when was the next time that you saw marina? mrs. ford. after she came back from washington. mr. liebeler. did she come to your house then? mrs. ford. no; she did not. her lawyer, in fact mr. martin, called me and told me she is staying at her brother-in-law's, and that he wanted to break the partnership with her, and he asked me if i could go with her attorney and translate for her the conditions of the break, the breaking of the contract, and i agreed to go with them. mr. liebeler. to robert oswald? mrs. ford. to robert oswald's house; yes. mr. liebeler. did there come a time after that when marina came to live with you in your house? mrs. ford. yes; when i came there, marina told me she couldn't stay another day, she thought, in robert's house. it was such a small house and small children and she just didn't like to stay in there at all, and so i told her, "well, you could come and stay at my place if you wanted to," and she said she would love to do that. mr. liebeler. after marina moved in with you, did you talk to her about her testimony before the commission, that she gave before the commission? mrs. ford. no; we never talked about what she did. she told me she had it, written something. she said something maybe that someone mentioned in the commission that that was rather good for a novel but not for the testimony. she said, well, she had written the way she remembers her past, those are the words she made. mr. liebeler. she was referring to a statement she had written. mrs. ford. she had written, yes. mr. liebeler. did she show it to you? mrs. ford. no; i have never seen it. mr. liebeler. during the time that marina stayed with you or at any other time, did she say anything to you about this incident where mr. oswald was allegedly going to attack mr. nixon? mrs. ford. no; i hadn't learned about that until later. mr. liebeler. did you discuss it with marina? mrs. ford. somehow she didn't feel, she didn't want to discuss it very much, she felt badly that it came out, i suppose or something. she didn't want it to. mr. liebeler. but she did talk to you about it? mrs. ford. she talked to me because i had to translate it to her, the discussion with her lawyer, and he, i think, the fbi were at the lawyer's office while they went to talk to her about the subject, and i had to translate what she was telling the lawyer about it. mr. liebeler. did you have any conversations with her about this nixon affair at a time when the fbi was not present? mrs. ford. i think going home, i just maybe, i don't know what i asked her. she said the same thing actually what she said in the office, that she held him in the bathroom and i asked her how was it finished, and she said, "i talked him out of it," and he said, "if you will keep me in the bathroom, just give me something to read." she didn't talk very much about it. mr. liebeler. did you ask her how she could lock lee in the bathroom? mrs. ford. no; it never occurred to me to ask her and i did not ask her. mr. liebeler. did you discuss this question with anybody else how she could lock anybody in the bathroom? mrs. ford. not until yesterday with my husband, how she could do it. mr. liebeler. is there anything else that marina told you about this nixon affair that you can remember now? did she tell you when it happened? mrs. ford. no; she told me only that, that she said she mixed up dates. she thought it was one month and it was, supposedly happened, another month and she said that a lot of times she doesn't remember exactly the month. mr. liebeler. did she tell you anything about the general walker affair? mrs. ford. yes; she told me something about that. mr. liebeler. what was that? mrs. ford. she said in the first place, people are saying that maybe she knew ahead of time and she said she did not. lee told her after it had happened, after he had shot, and he told her, "well, i just tried to shoot walker." she said she was rather angry and she told him if he ever does that again, she said, "don't ever do that again," she was rather disgusted--that he shouldn't do such a thing. mr. liebeler. did she tell you about any note that he had written in connection with the attack on general walker? mrs. ford. no; she didn't. mr. liebeler. did she tell you whether the walker incident occurred before or after the nixon incident? mrs. ford. i don't know. she never said it to me. mr. liebeler. did she discuss with you during this period that she had been living in your house any of the details of the assassination? mrs. ford. i, frankly, just didn't feel like asking her questions, i really felt like i just wanted to help her, that is all. she never brought the subject up herself. mr. liebeler. did she say anything about what happened on thursday night when lee oswald came back from irving to dallas? mrs. ford. yes; she said that was not long ago, and she somehow found out someone, i think robert, told her there was some evidence that someone saw a boy running across--a boy saw someone running across the yard or something, and he thought maybe there was some other man involved. and she began to say, "well, if lee didn't kill the president why did he come home on thursday and why did he leave his ring at home and why was the gun taken from the garage." i mean she was putting that together, she was making me believe that lee was doing it. mr. liebeler. she was considering at that time the possibility that lee oswald was not? mrs. ford. yes. mr. liebeler. guilty of this? mrs. ford. yes; robert, i believe, was telling her that, that there was a possibility that somebody else did the crime and she was talking about that to me, and that is when she said about why would he come back on thursday when he never did that before, and also that he would leave a ring that was to her it would mean something that he didn't want--he didn't feel like he would return or something. mr. liebeler. did you discuss with marina her feeling as to lee oswald's guilt or innocence in this matter? mrs. ford. well, she feels that--no, i don't remember her discussing it. i think she asked him after she saw him after the assassination he told her no, he did not kill anybody. he told her that. but i think her own conclusion is that he did. mr. liebeler. did you have any discussions with her as to whether lee oswald was angry with president kennedy for any reason? mrs. ford. no; she told me that he actually never did say anything bad about kennedy. he didn't like general walker because he compared him rather with hitler in some way. he said, he was telling her, she was asking him why would he kill a man like that, i mean that he should not kill anybody. he said, he told her, well, if somebody killed hitler ahead of time that wouldn't have happened in germany and he says he felt like it was his duty to get rid of men where he was a fascist, speaking about general walker. mr. liebeler. did marina say anything about lee's attitude toward governor connally? mrs. ford. no; she never discussed that. mr. liebeler. did you talk to marina about marina's feelings toward mrs. paine? mrs. ford. lately, i have been talking to her about that, and mrs. paine, i know, tried to contact her and asked marina why she did not want to write to her, because i know that she had written to her often. somehow she doesn't like mrs. paine and then she said she feels that martin told her that mrs. paine was making money on her articles about marina, and she don't like that. i got, even lately, mrs. paine called me up, and i believe it was only a pretense because she knew that i had a contact with marina and she wanted to see marina. she came to my house and told me she wanted for me to read in russian very slowly that she could follow me for her students. she is teaching russian to some students in private school and that she could record it and then listen to it, and she said she would pay me for the services, and at the time, the same time. so, i had marina that evening, i know she would want to see her, so i invited marina to my house and at the time mrs. paine was coming. mr. liebeler. you told her mrs. paine was coming? mrs. ford. yes; i told her mrs. paine was coming and she only said she didn't want mrs. paine for her to know the telephone number or the house she lives in. she said she would come in all the time and she didn't exactly like her. she didn't want to see her at her house, not now anyway, she said. mr. liebeler. did marina and mrs. paine meet this evening at your house? mrs. ford. yes; they did, they talked. mr. liebeler. what did they say to each other? mrs. ford. well, frankly, i got an idea that mrs. paine came there to convince marina to write a book with mr. levine who is rather persistent about it at the moment. he wants to start writing a book before marina finishes with her lawyer and attorney--and her manager. she knows and she is advised by her attorney now not to do it before it is finished, and i think mrs. paine tried to talk her into it. mr. liebeler. they didn't discuss anything about the assassination or mrs. oswald's testimony before the commission? mrs. ford. no; i did not hear it. mr. liebeler. so far as you heard. did marina ever tell you anything about the trip to mexico that lee oswald took? mrs. ford. well, let's see. i think she was saying something about it that she did not mention to the fbi but she mentioned it to the commission. she did say that. and that the fbi wanted to talk with her, that was the reason they wanted to come back again and talk with her. they came to my house quite often during the time she stayed at my house and talked with her, and she said that was the subject, and they asked her why she did not say it to start with, and she said well, she had begun to get tired of the fbi and she didn't like to talk with them. mr. liebeler. the fbi had been interviewing her while she stayed at your place? mrs. ford. that is right. mr. liebeler. have you been present at any of those interviews? mrs. ford. no; unless they needed--no; i was not present. mr. liebeler. you were present at an fbi interview at mr. mckenzie's office at one time? mrs. ford. at mr. mckenzie's office, that is right. mr. liebeler. was there a translator present when the fbi interviewed marina? mrs. ford. yes; there is at the moment. mr. liebeler. do you know his name? mrs. ford. mr. gopadze. mr. liebeler. has marina discussed with you the questions that the fbi has been asking her? mrs. ford. no; except this particular mexican trip. mr. liebeler. did she tell you anything about the details of that trip? mrs. ford. on that trip--she did not go into details of the trip; but certain things about--she asked lee to bring her a bracelet and he didn't, things like that. mr. liebeler. did she say anything about a desire that lee oswald had to go to cuba? mrs. ford. well, this is something that she talked about but i don't remember how--she said he wanted to actually go to cuba. he wanted to get a visa to go to russia but he would go to russia by the way of cuba, and she thought that he would stay in cuba and not go to russia. mr. liebeler. did marina tell you what she was supposed to do when oswald was in cuba. mrs. ford. frankly, i don't know. i know that subject was discussed one time but i either had to go diaper the baby or something. i just cannot say--i know she tried to talk on this subject to mr. levine once and she explained it. it was a rather complicated sort of a thing and i cannot explain it. mr. liebeler. did she express any fears that oswald was going to leave her and go to cuba and abandon her. mrs. ford. there was a possibility--something she would stay here or something, and for a while, and we were asking her well, how did she intend to live while he was gone, and she thought, well, she said, well, lee said, "you have a lot of russian friends and they will help you," while he is not here, that was the conversation. mr. liebeler. did marina ever speak of any plans that oswald had to hijack an airplane and go to cuba? mrs. ford. yes; she said something like that. mr. liebeler. what did she say? mrs. ford. well, that was again, i believe she was discussing with mr. levine at the time about this cuba and this airplane. it is again complicated, i don't think i can say it to make sense, somehow that he had to go, had to have enough gasoline or something to go there, not to make a stop anywhere. i could not say it to make any sense. i know she was talking about it. mr. liebeler. did you ever talk to robert oswald about the assassination? mrs. ford. no; we we never discussed it. mr. liebeler. robert oswald never expressed to you any thoughts that he had on lee oswald's guilt or innocence? mrs. ford. i understand he didn't like the cover of life magazine and i was rather surprised because it was in my mind like it seems there is no question. nobody knows very sure but i feel like it was lee that did it. and he was rather angry about the statement there that it was a gun with which the president was killed, and he was rather angry about that cover, and that is why i thought that maybe he didn't believe that lee killed him. mr. liebeler. that is the only discussion you had with robert oswald? mrs. ford. yes; that is the only one, that is right. mr. liebeler. have you talked to marina about any rifle practice that lee oswald may have engaged in? mrs. ford. i didn't discuss it with him but she said that she didn't think that he went to a rifle practice. she told me that about a lot of things that people would say that it was not true, she thought that she didn't think it was true about lee being at practice. mr. liebeler. in grand prairie you are referring to? mrs. ford. yes; that is right. mr. liebeler. in grand prairie? mrs. ford. that is right. she didn't think he was doing that. mr. liebeler. did she say anything about him practicing with the rifle any place else? mrs. ford. no; she didn't. mr. liebeler. did she mention that he had practiced with the rifle at love field? mrs. ford. she didn't say anything. mr. liebeler. did marina ever say anything to you that indicated she wanted to go back to russia? you said before that she told lee oswald that if he wanted to go back to russia he could go but she wasn't going to go. but did she ever indicate to you at any time she wanted to go back to russia? mrs. ford. she did not. again the first call after the assassination she asked me, she said, "you know i have a visa, a pending visa, to go to russia and if they will send it to me, i may have to go." i sort of answered her, i am pretty sure they wouldn't send her a visa now so she doesn't have to worry about it. mr. liebeler. yesterday afternoon we discussed some of these things, did we not? mrs. ford. yes. mr. liebeler. you mentioned the fact that marina oswald had told you that at one time she was thinking about committing suicide? mrs. ford. yes; she mentioned that. mr. liebeler. tell us about that. mrs. ford. she said she didn't want to have it published anywhere, she is rather ashamed of it. but there was a time after all the--i think it was before she went to new orleans and before she lived at paine's house, that there was a time that she didn't have any friends, all the russian friends left her, i believe de mohrenschildts were gone during that time, and that lee was treating her rather badly at the time and she just felt like she had no way out. mr. liebeler. did she tell you anything other than that? did she tell you she actually tried to commit suicide or was it something she was thinking of? mrs. ford. she didn't tell me the particulars but somehow lee found out what was on her mind because he had beaten her again and told her only crazy people would consider doing a thing like that. mr. liebeler. she said lee had found out she had thought of committing suicide? mrs. ford. yes. mr. liebeler. did she ever tell you how he found out? mrs. ford. no. mr. liebeler. did she indicate to you in any way that she had ever tried to do this? mrs. ford. well, she didn't tell me the particulars of it, i didn't want to, i mean i just didn't, ask her for all the details about it. but she was saying she was thinking about doing it at a certain time. mr. liebeler. well, i don't want to press you too hard about it but there is quite a difference between thinking about doing it and actually doing it. the chairman. she didn't hear it, she didn't hear it, did she? mr. liebeler. that is right. the chairman. all right, that is enough. mr. liebeler. did you write to marina at any time after the assassination? mrs. ford. did i write to her? mr. liebeler. yes. mrs. ford. i sent her a christmas card; yes. mr. liebeler. any other letters? mrs. ford. no; no letters. mr. liebeler. how many times have you been interviewed by the fbi, do you remember? mrs. ford. fbi maybe twice. the first time, soon after the assassination; the same day that lee oswald was shot. actually we heard by radio, friends of ours had called us, anyone who knew lee oswald was supposed to come out and say it and call the fbi or the police. so we called the fbi and we said we did know and we came to the office ourselves and to talk about it. mr. liebeler. have you been interviewed by the secret service? mrs. ford. no; i don't think so. mr. liebeler. in our conversation yesterday we discussed your testimony and reviewed these matters. is there anything you can remember that we discussed at that time that we have not talked about here now? mrs. ford. i don't remember. i don't know. mr. liebeler. is there any other information that you have that you think the commission would like to know about that we don't have relating to the assassination? mrs. ford. i don't think there is anything of importance that you don't know. mr. liebeler. do you have any papers relating to these matters other than i think you mentioned a copy of the letter that you translated for the american civil liberties union, other than that paper, do you have any papers that might relate to these questions i asked you? mrs. ford. no; i might have a copy of the letter that marina was writing for---- mr. liebeler. to governor connally? mrs. ford. to governor connally, and it is just rather a translation in my own handwriting. mr. liebeler. on this point about the rifle practice, did marina tell you simply that he did not practice at the range at grand prairie or he did not practice at any place with the rifle? mrs. ford. i think she was talking about the particular range. mr. liebeler. particularly grand prairie? mrs. ford. that is right. mr. liebeler. and she didn't say anything about any other practice? mrs. ford. she was telling me that people were--supposedly saw him in san antonio and she knew for sure he wasn't there, and then she was saying they saw him at grand prairie practicing and she thought that he wasn't there, and then again in ruby's place and she knew sure that lee would never go to a place like that, things like that. mr. liebeler. i have no further questions. the chairman. congressman ford, do you have some questions for mrs. ford? representative ford. mr. chief justice, i have one or two. the chairman. proceed, please. representative ford. did marina oswald ever tell you about her schooling in russia? mrs. ford. yes; she did. i think that would be a junior college here. she would finish or years, i don't know exactly, and then i think it is years in a junior college which would make her in my opinion an assistant pharmacist. representative ford. in other words, she went to the regular---- mrs. ford. school, yes. representative ford. primary school? mrs. ford. that is right. representative ford. following that she went on to a secondary school. mrs. ford. you don't have to finish primary school. russian high school is years, and if you want to specialize in some sort of assistant or technical work you would finish or years and then you would go years after that, it is a finishing technical school, whether you would call it, where you would actually finish high school and at the same time you acquire some sort of a profession or technician, assistant to engineer or in this case assistant to a pharmacist. representative ford. but those were the only schools that she has ever indicated to you that she attended? mrs. ford. i think so, that is right. representative ford. did she ever indicate to you the participation that she had in the komsomol. mrs. ford. she said that she did join it and then she was kicked out or something. representative ford. did she ever give you any reason why she was kicked out? mrs. ford. she told me that one time but i don't--i have forgotten the reason, i really don't remember. representative ford. was it an ordinary thing for a person to be kicked out of the komsomol, so far as you know? mrs. ford. yes; i believe you have to be the sort, if you join it you have to perform your duty, you have to go the meetings and be sort of a leader in the community or in school or take on their work so if you don't do that, i think they just consider you not being a good young komsomol. they wouldn't keep you there. representative ford. did marina ever tell you that she did or didn't join the communist party in the soviet union? mrs. ford. she couldn't join it. representative ford. why couldn't she join it? mrs. ford. well, not from my own experience but from what i know about it, i think you have to be over years and you have to be years, you have a -year waiting period until they check your background and see if you are good enough person to get by their standards to join the party. representative ford. did marina ever discuss with you any schools or training programs that lee participated in while he was in the soviet union? mrs. ford. no; she never has said anything of that sort. i think she said one time that they wanted to send him to a school which would give him a profession but it had nothing to do with military or anything like that but somehow he didn't go there. but i have forgotten what he had to be so he was just working regular labor in the factory. representative ford. you don't recall anything, any details? mrs. ford. i don't recall any details of the school. representative ford. you don't recall any of the details of the kind of school? mrs. ford. yes; but it was some sort of a civilian, it had nothing to do with military or espionage or anything like that that i remember. representative ford. at the time that marina and june stayed with you and your husband in october or november of , did lee oswald visit her at your home? mrs. ford. no. he did not. representative ford. he called her? mrs. ford. he called on the telephone. representative ford. did anyone else visit her while she was staying at your home on this occasion? mrs. ford. on this occasion, i think the only person who visited was anna ray to whom she was to go later after she stayed with me. representative ford. excuse me, i didn't hear you. mrs. ford. anna ray, that is another russian-born person to whom marina would go from my house, she came to visit her. representative ford. the individual who kept marina after she left you? mrs. ford. that is right, that is correct. representative ford. and his name was what? mrs. ford. her name. representative ford. what is the name? mrs. ford. anna ray. representative ford. that is the only person who visited marina during this period? mrs. ford. at my house; yes. representative ford. i would like to clarify the time and the circumstances of this discussion you had with marina about the nixon affair. mrs. ford. yes. representative ford. you had gone to mr. mckenzie's office with marina? mrs. ford. that is right. i had gone translating for her; yes. representative ford. you were in mr. mckenzie's office? mrs. ford. yes. representative ford. with marina. who else was there? mrs. ford. and at that time she had a date with the fbi, and we were doing, i was translating some legal work for her about dismissing her old attorney and manager and the fbi called me to come later after we finished with that, and they told marina why they wanted to talk with her, and mckenzie took us in that other office and he asked marina about that, and told her that that is what she had to talk about, and she was really angry. she said the thought robert had said, i mean she did not tell anybody about it, and she didn't want to talk about it, and now she has to talk about it to the fbi since robert mentioned it. representative ford. in this meeting there was mr. mckenzie? mrs. ford. that is right. mr. mckenzie, marina and i. representative ford. just the three of you? mrs. ford. yes. representative ford. in a room in mr. mckenzie's office? mrs. ford. yes; in one of the rooms in his office. representative ford. and mr. mckenzie said what? mrs. ford. oh, i think that maybe--frankly, i don't know what he was telling her. representative ford. was this meeting only about the nixon affair? mrs. ford. i am very sorry, but i think that during that time when we were talking about that it was when he was talking about general walker, that he was--it was not about nixon that they talked about. representative ford. this meeting with mr. mckenzie, when marina and you were discussing matters---- mrs. ford. that was about general walker. i think mr. mckenzie didn't know what they would talk about but he advised her "they will ask you if there were two guns, you tell them there was one gun that was used," he told her. representative ford. one gun used where? mrs. ford. for walker, i mean the same one they had at the house or something, frankly this is what i had---- representative ford. i think you just said at the outset of this meeting the prime purpose or the principal purpose was to discuss the walker affair. mrs. ford. yes; that is right. representative ford. how did the nixon affair come up? mrs. ford. i just can't recollect how. representative ford. did mckenzie raise the question or did marina raise it? mrs. ford. how it was raised, i didn't get to discuss it with her about the particulars about it, except one time in the car, i don't remember how it came up and i was asking well how did that happen, and she was rather hesitating to talk about it, but she said, "well, i locked him in the bathroom, and he was screaming or something, he was wanting to get out", and she tried to talk him out of it and he said, "if you are going to keep me in here just let me have a book to read", and i told her how did he get out later, she said, "well, he rather cooled off and i talked him out of it." representative ford. you say this conversation took place in the car? mrs. ford. yes; this conversation right now took place in the car but i don't know how it got started, i have forgotten. representative ford. when you say it took place in the car, was it in the car going from mr. mckenzie's to your home? mrs. ford. that is right, to my home. she was staying at my place at this time. representative ford. did she talk rather freely about this nixon---- mrs. ford. she didn't talk about it freely, i thought she was rather hesitant about going into particulars. representative ford. did she ever indicate why she had not discussed this incident with anybody, including the commission? mrs. ford. well, right during that time, just before that, in the office, mr. mckenzie, and i told her before that, "if you know anything that i think that would help either the commission or the fbi i thought it my duty to tell them," and i told her that if she doesn't want me to say to anybody just don't talk to me about it, that is what i told her. but because and maybe that is why she was hesitating to talk to me, mr. mckenzie told it to her and had a written statement to her, too, if he feels there is anything he will have to say he will say it in connection with the president. so it was said right before that, and i feel maybe that is why she was hesitating to talk to me. representative ford. that is all. the chairman. mrs. ford, you are an american citizen now, aren't you? mrs. ford. yes. the chairman. how did you acquire it, by marriage to your first soldier husband? mrs. ford. no. i had to apply for it. the chairman. where were you naturalized? mrs. ford. in dallas, tex. the chairman. in the federal court? mrs. ford. that is correct. the chairman. when was that about? mrs. ford. i have it on my bracelet, so i will give you the correct time, i got it in . the chairman. in ? mrs. ford. this i got on "this is your life". i was on "this is your life". representative ford. mr. chairman, i have one or two more questions. the chairman. go right ahead. representative ford. i wish you could clarify, if you can, the comment you made about marina mentioning two guns. mrs. ford. she did not mention two guns ever to me or anything like that. but i don't know how or why he advised her to say that at all, i don't know, it was not clear to me. representative ford. when you say he, was that mr. mckenzie? mrs. ford. that is right, because the only reason--the only thing i remember about marina was saying that lee had laughed about the attempt to kill general walker, that he said that they were even too stupid to find out what gun was used to kill him because it was written up a different type of gun was used other than the one really used by lee. representative ford. marina said that? mrs. ford. that is right. lee had commented on that they were not even smart enough to identify the gun by a bullet. representative ford. when did marina say lee said that? mrs. ford. well, soon after he--maybe that evening or the next day but i mean after he had attempted to shoot the general. representative ford. after he had attempted to shoot general walker? mrs. ford. that is right. and the bullet was found in the room and i suppose by the bullet they had tried to identify the gun or whatever he used to shoot him and it was identified wrong. it was not, i don't know what kind of gun he used, frankly, i don't know, but he said, he just made a comment, they weren't even smart enough to identify the gun by the bullet. representative ford. lee said that to marina? mrs. ford. to marina, that is right. representative ford. right after the incident? mrs. ford. right after the incident, that is correct. representative ford. and marina told mr. mckenzie that? mrs. ford. i don't know. representative ford. you don't know? mrs. ford. but i think right after that it was in the papers that a different type of gun was used, and to shoot the president was different again, there were supposedly two guns, you see, so maybe that is why he advised her, that he had only one gun. i really don't know how this came out. the chairman. that is all. thank you very much for coming, you have been very helpful. mrs. ford. i hope so. i frankly wish i had questioned her more but i didn't feel it was my duty, but i wanted to tell you what she said to me. the chairman. we will take a short recess. (short recess.) testimony of declan p. ford the chairman. mr. ford, you were given a copy of this statement were you? mr. ford. yes, sir. the chairman. as to the purpose so you understand what we are doing here today? mr. ford. yes, sir. the chairman. will you please rise. do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before this commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. ford. i do. the chairman. be seated please and mr. liebeler will ask the questions. mr. liebeler. will you state your name, sir? mr. ford. declan p. ford. mr. liebeler. where do you live? mr. ford. dallas, tex. mr. liebeler. what is your employment? mr. ford. i am a consulting geologist. mr. liebeler. are you independently employed? mr. ford. yes; i am self-employed. mr. liebeler. would you give us a brief statement of your educational background? mr. ford. i was graduated from the university of california at los angeles in , with a bachelor of arts degree in geology, and was first employed by tidewater associated oil co. as a geologist, later with the continental oil co. as a geologist, and then later with degollyer mcnaughton, a consulting firm in dallas, tex., until , october. i went into business for myself as a consulting geologist. all this time has been in exploration, development of oil and gas fields both in the united states and foreign countries. mr. liebeler. have you been employed in and about the fort worth and dallas area ever since you graduated from college? mr. ford. no; i have only been in the dallas area since january . mr. liebeler. your wife's name is katherine ford? mr. ford. yes. mr. liebeler. when were you married? mr. ford. we were married july . july . mr. liebeler. were you married at any time prior to that? mr. ford. no; i was not. the chairman. ' , did you say? mr. ford. . mr. liebeler. are you acquainted with jack ruby? mr. ford. no; i am not. mr. liebeler. do you know of any connection between lee oswald and jack ruby? mr. ford. no; i don't. mr. liebeler. directly or indirectly? mr. ford. no. mr. liebeler. do you know mr. john m. grizzaffi? mr. ford. yes; i knew him. mr. liebeler. do you know whether or not he is a friend or associate of jack ruby's? mr. ford. i don't know. i have heard that he knows jack ruby, i don't know how well he knows him. mr. liebeler. do you know whether mr. grizzaffi had any contact with the oswalds or knew them? mr. ford. none that i knew of. mr. liebeler. when did you first meet the oswalds? mr. ford. in , and i think it was in august of , i am not sure of the exact date. mr. liebeler. would you tell us the circumstances of the meeting? mr. ford. i was a guest at the house of some friends, the mellers, and the oswalds had been there for lunch, and we came over after lunch to have cocktails and to meet lee and marina oswald. mr. liebeler. who was there at that time? mr. ford. mr. meller and his wife, anna meller, george bouhe, my wife and myself, marina and lee oswald, and i can't remember for sure if anybody else. it seems to me there was somebody else there but i can't remember who it was. someone else may have come in later or something like that. mr. liebeler. did you mention george bouhe as being there? mr. ford. yes; george bouhe was there. mr. liebeler. you mentioned him? mr. ford. yes. mr. liebeler. who invited you to that luncheon? mr. ford. mrs. meller. mr. liebeler. had you heard of the oswalds prior to that time? mr. ford. yes; i had. mr. liebeler. how? mr. ford. i first heard of them, i think, from either george bouhe or maybe from max clark who lives in fort worth but i think it was george bouhe. he had mentioned the name of lee oswald and briefly described his history, his story of his going to russia, attempting to give up his american citizenship, and later returning from russia with a russian wife and child, and living in fort worth, and we were, my wife is russian and we were interested in meeting her. george bouhe, i think, at the time was attempting to help lee oswald find employment. mr. liebeler. when you say "her" in that sentence you are referring to mrs. marina oswald? mr. ford. yes; marina oswald. mr. liebeler. is that the reason why basically you went to the lunch at the mellers to meet lee and marina oswald? mr. ford. yes. mr. liebeler. was there any conversation with the oswalds at that time? mr. ford. there was, most of the conversation was in russian which i don't understand. i had very little conversation with lee himself because he spoke russian most of the time that afternoon and marina didn't speak any english at all. mr. liebeler. did you have any conversations in english with oswald about living conditions in russia, about his expenses in russia? mr. ford. a little bit. he showed me pictures of people that he had worked with in russia. i believe they were on a picnic together, a group of men, and various other pictures of places he had seen in minsk, and he briefly described the living conditions in russia, i guess the conditions under which he had lived in russia, the small room they had to live in, and he said something about how much money he made there. i don't remember how much it was though. mr. liebeler. did he tell you what kind of a job he had? mr. ford. no, he didn't. i think george bouhe told me he had been a sheet metal worker or something similar to that. mr. liebeler. in minsk? mr. ford. in minsk, yes. mr. liebeler. did oswald compare to you the amount of money that he was paid with the amount of money that other workers in the plant were paid? mr. ford. no; he said nothing about it. mr. liebeler. did he indicate in any way any source of income other than from his job? mr. ford. none. mr. liebeler. at any time did he do that? mr. ford. no. mr. liebeler. did you ever learn of anything like that? mr. ford. no; i have heard people speak of it but i have never heard him or anybody that knew him say he had another source of income. mr. liebeler. you have heard people speak of it when, since the assassination? mr. ford. since the assassination. mr. liebeler. but you heard nothing of it prior to the assassination? mr. ford. no. mr. liebeler. did you get any impressions of oswald at this first meeting? mr. ford. i had an impression that he was not the type of person i could make friends with very easily. he didn't impress me as being friendly to me as a person. he was kind of closed up within himself. and it seemed to me he preferred to speak in russian rather than in english. he wanted to practice speaking russian with the russian speaking people rather than talking to me. mr. liebeler. did mrs. oswald have any bruises on her at that time? mr. ford. yes, she did. on her face. mr. liebeler. on her face. was there any conversation about that? mr. ford. not directly with me. my wife told me that mrs. oswald told her it was due to some accident of running into a door at nighttime while she was getting up to see what--the baby crying, something like that. mr. liebeler. did you accept that explanation? mr. ford. i didn't--well, really, i didn't accept it. it just didn't make much sense but it didn't make an impression one way or the other to me. i frankly at the time thought of a standard cartoon joke of a kid explaining his black eye, by a kid explaining he ran into a doorknob. mr. liebeler. was there anything that happened at this first luncheon that impressed you about oswald or his attitude, in any way that you think the commission should know about? mr. ford. very little. except he seemed reserved, and i would call excessively polite, and the fact i don't think he made any effort to make friends with the other people. mr. liebeler. when was the next time that you had any contact with oswald? mr. ford. the next time i saw him was the night i drove marina from our house to another friend's house, mr. frank ray's house. she had been staying at our house for about a week and she had been separated from him. i had been out of town and when i came home she was invited to stay over at mr. ray's house and i took her over there, i think it was on a friday evening. lee oswald called and wanted to talk to marina and wanted then to come out and see her. mr. ray told him if he would get on the bus and come to the bus stop nearest their home that he would pick him up, and i went with mr. ray to pick up lee oswald at the bus stop. we went back to mr. ray's home, and had a short conversation with lee oswald but he said he wanted to talk to marina, and he and marina went into another room. i don't know exactly how long it was but we sat down and had one or two drinks, and then lee came back in and said he and his wife were going to have a reconciliation and she wanted to go home with him that evening. mr. ray offered to drive them back to their place in oak cliff, and then i went home. mr. liebeler. you were out of town throughout the entire time that marina stayed with your wife? mr. ford. except for the last night. she stayed there one more night after i came home. mr. liebeler. did you form any impression on oswald that evening different from the one that you originally had of him? mr. ford. only it confirmed my original thought. i remember one instance. frank asked him where he was working and he would never identify the place he was working. he would hedge, i forget his exact words, but he mentioned that he was working, i think in a printing shop, either printing or photographic developing shop, and mr. ray asked him the name of the place, i think, twice, and he avoided answering. he would just start talking about something completely different. in other words, when he didn't want to answer a question he would either change the subject or just start talking to somebody else. mr. liebeler. you had no independent knowledge of where he was working at that time? mr. ford. i didn't know the name. i had heard he was employed in this shop that i think was a printing and photographic developing shop. mr. liebeler. you didn't have anything to do with his getting that job? mr. ford. no, i didn't. mr. liebeler. do you know whether your friend did? mr. ford. i am not sure. i think either george bouhe or maybe theo meller may have introduced him to the owner of the shop but i am not sure about it. mr. liebeler. did you have any conversations with either mr. meller or mr. bouhe about this? mr. ford. i have had conversations with them, but it was prior to this night when lee came to make a reconciliation with his wife. mr. liebeler. did they tell you that they had anything to do with his getting this job? mr. ford. i don't specifically remember that they said so. i either assumed this or something they said led me to believe it. mr. liebeler. did you have any conversations with the rays that evening while you were taking marina over there about the difficulties that the oswalds had in their marriage? let's expand the question. think about that, and also think about any conversations that you may have had with your wife about that after you went back, and tell us the conversations that you had with anybody at that time about the incidents of the separation, what caused it and what was the trouble between the oswalds? mr. ford. i don't believe i had any discussion with either mr. or mrs. ray about specifically the difficulties in their marriage between marina and lee oswald. the only thing i remember is frankly saying something to the effect, well, he is really a screwy nut, or something, he can't find ways to work, something to that effect. i have not discussed their personal problems. but i have discussed it with my wife about it prior to that and after that and also after the assassination and it was my understanding when she left her husband it was because he had beat her up. mr. liebeler. did anybody tell you any of the details about why he had done that or what the cause of the trouble was? mr. ford. not at the time. my wife didn't tell me anything about that. again, after the assassination, she told me more about it, but i don't know if marina had mentioned this prior to the assassination, the year before that when she stayed at our house, or whether she mentioned it after the assassination, i don't know the exact time that these details were brought out. my wife did mention that perhaps marina antagonized him by arguing with him, talking back to him, or something like that whereas if she just learned to be quiet when he said something he might not have hit her. mr. liebeler. but you don't recall whether that was developed during or at the time or later on? mr. ford. i don't remember whether she told me that before the assassination or not. i know we have talked about it since the assassination. mr. liebeler. when was the next contact that you had with the oswalds? mr. ford. the next contact was after christmas . between christmas and new year's we gave a cocktail party and some friends of ours, george de mohrenschildt and his wife were invited and later called my wife and asked her if it would be all right to bring lee and marina to the party and my wife said sure, bring them along or might have asked me if it was all right to bring them along and i said sure. it was prior to december . mr. liebeler. did oswald come with de mohrenschildt? mr. ford. yes, he came with de mohrenschildt. mr. liebeler. did you know anything about the relations between oswald and the de mohrenschildts? mr. ford. i knew they were friends, no more than that. how often they saw each other or what they talked about or anything they talked about i don't know. mr. liebeler. how old are the de mohrenschildts? mr. ford. i guess george de mohrenschildt is between and years old. mr. liebeler. did it seem curious to you that a man that age would be close to lee oswald who was around or at that particular time? mr. ford. not in the particular case. mr. liebeler. why do you say that? mr. ford. well, george de mohrenschildt has a reputation for being a left-wing enthusiast or something, i don't mean a member of the communist party, but he is, i have heard other people say he has expounded the ideals of marxism and since lee oswald was supposedly a marxist or a communist they would agree on their political views. again, i have never heard george de mohrenschildt expound on any of these ideas. i have met him socially several times and he is very pleasant, a big, good looking man, but other than their agreement on what is the ideal political system, i can't think of anything else they would have in common. mr. liebeler. your knowledge of de mohrenschildt's political views are hearsay? mr. ford. all of it is hearsay. mr. liebeler. how did you learn about oswald's political views? mr. ford. also hearsay, from other people. mr. liebeler. can you tell us who told you about it? mr. ford. i can't remember anybody, any specific statement from anybody, but i have discussed it with people like both my wife and george bouhe and i don't remember if i discussed it with the mellers or not but it seems i have heard this from several different people about just about everybody who knew them, the oswalds, this was one of the things that people were leary about in dealing with him was his reputation for being a communist. mr. liebeler. did he have that reputation in the community? mr. ford. yes, i think he had that reputation of either--not being a member, say, of the communist party, but his political ideas were either marxist or communist or something he had derived from reading karl marx, i suppose. mr. liebeler. do you know whether he expressed any extreme antagonism or antagonism of any sort toward the government of the united states? mr. ford. the only occasion i know of was the first time i met him, he did blame the u.s. embassy for delaying his exit, the exit of he and his wife from russia. he did state if it had not been for their delaying the exit visa that his daughter would have been born in the united states rather than russia. mr. liebeler. did he say anything more about that, do you remember any more in detail? mr. ford. not that i heard of or can remember. representative ford. did he think the birth of his daughter in russia rather than in the united states was something important, did it appear that way? mr. ford. i don't know how important he thought it was. it actually started as a joke. we also had a baby born shortly before that and i said, "pretty little russian girl" or something like that, and he made a statement, "she is just as much a texan as your son," and then went on to explain that if the u.s. embassy had acted more quickly that he and marina could have left russia and that june, the daughter, would have been born in the united states. i don't know whether he placed any great importance on it or not. mr. liebeler. did oswald ever appear to you to have any kind of a sense of humor? mr. ford. none whatsoever. mr. liebeler. did he say anything about the attitude the russian authorities took when he wanted to come back to the united states and bring his wife back with him? mr. ford. he never said anything to me. i think he may have while he was talking russian with these other people. he may have mentioned the fact that it was easier, they got their visa for he and his wife from the russian authorities, the delay came from the american authorities, but i don't specifically know whether it did. he said these things, again it would be hearsay, again i would have heard it from my wife or somebody else who could speak russian who had either discussed it with him or was present when he was discussing it with somebody else. mr. liebeler. did you ever hear oswald or hear of oswald making any remarks that would indicate a hostility toward president kennedy? mr. ford. no; never did. mr. liebeler. what about governor connally? mr. ford. never heard that either, until after the assassination. i saw newspaper copies of a letter he wrote to governor connally when governor connally was secretary of the navy. mr. liebeler. i would limit my question to before the assassination? mr. ford. before the assassination, no. mr. liebeler. did you hear anything about his military career prior to the assassination? mr. ford. no; in fact i had assumed prior to the assassination that he had had an honorable discharge from the marine corps. mr. liebeler. you never had any discussions with him about that or heard anybody discussing it? mr. ford. he said something the first time i met him, i can't specifically remember what it was, but i got the impression that, at that time that he had been a marine corps guard at the u.s. embassy in russia and i can't remember whether he said this or somebody else mentioned it or whether i just assumed it on my own. so i know my first idea was this was the way he had gotten to russia. i later learned he had gone on his own. mr. liebeler. but you don't remember any specific discussion with him about this question? mr. ford. no. mr. liebeler. did you know where oswald was living during this period that his wife was separated from him and living with you and mrs. meller? mr. ford. i knew he had an apartment in this oak cliff section of dallas. i don't remember the exact address. i don't know whether he stayed there while marina was in our house or not. mr. liebeler. you had no knowledge where he lived prior to the time that he took the apartment in oak cliff, did you? mr. ford. well, i think he lived in fort worth. i am not absolutely sure. i believe this apartment in oak cliff was the first place he lived in dallas, but i am not absolutely sure about it. mr. liebeler. you had never talked to him about it? mr. ford. no; never. mr. liebeler. did you ever visit the apartment? mr. ford. no. mr. liebeler. now, had we gotten to the christmas party? mr. ford. you asked me about it. mr. liebeler. tell us as best as you can recall the events of that period. i think you said there was a party at your house on the th of december. mr. ford. yes. mr. liebeler. tell me if there were parties or get-togethers at which you were present or of which you knew at other homes during that period. mr. ford. well, there were, but i don't remember the specific dates that they were. i think they were after the party at our house. there was a party at george bouhe's home, an apartment, during that period. i think it was a few days after that, right in the period of new year's eve, and i went to several celebrations. i would hate to try to recall exactly when each one of them was and who was there. mr. liebeler. do you remember going to george bouhe's apartment? mr. ford. yes; i remember going there but i don't remember the exact date that it was. mr. liebeler. was oswald at that meeting? mr. ford. no; he was not. mr. liebeler. was there any discussion of oswald at that time? mr. ford. not that i can remember. mr. liebeler. were there any other parties that you attended during that period? mr. ford. i don't remember any formal parties. i stopped and had drinks with a lot of people. mr. liebeler. specifically, was there a get-together at your home the night after the party that you had on the th of december? mr. ford. not a formal party, just a group of people happened to show up and we started another party. mr. liebeler. who was there? mr. ford. mr. and mrs. sullivan, friends of ours from new orleans, and mr. and mrs. harris who were from georgetown, tex., and another mr. and mrs. ray, not the ones who live in dallas, but these live in paris, tex. mr. liebeler. would that be mr. and mrs. thomas ray? mr. ford. thomas ray. mr. liebeler. thomas ray. and yourself and your wife? mr. ford. right. mr. liebeler. anybody else? mr. ford. right now i can't remember anybody else who came in. it was not a formal gathering, just people happened to stop in and we started having a party. mr. liebeler. do you have any recollection of any discussion of oswald at that time? mr. ford. no. mr. liebeler. do you remember at any time having any discussion with any of your russian friends on the question of whether or not oswald was a russian agent? mr. ford. prior to the assassination? mr. liebeler. yes, sir. mr. ford. no; i don't remember prior to the assassination. there may have been some but i don't remember any. mr. liebeler. at the party at your home on the th of december, did you have any conversation with oswald? mr. ford. said "hello, how are you," to he and marina, and after that, i can't remember oswald talking to anybody there except one guest, a japanese girl, yaeko, i forget her last name; my wife will remember. as nearly as i can remember she was the only person in the whole party that he ever bothered to talk to. mr. liebeler. do you remember whether oswald was drinking that evening? mr. ford. i fixed one drink for him, in a little liqueur glass full of liqueur. as far as i remember he never touched it. mr. liebeler. did you ever observe oswald smoking? mr. ford. no. mr. liebeler. and you don't remember any discussion about oswald after he left that evening? mr. ford. no; after he left that evening, i don't recall any discussion of him. mr. liebeler. did you ever have any conversations with de mohrenschildt about oswald? mr. ford. i don't remember any specific conversations with george de mohrenschildt. i may have. mr. liebeler. what was your impression of oswald at this time as far as his relations with the other members of the russian community were concerned, and generally? mr. ford. my impression was that he didn't want his wife to associate with them, and that he resented any aid or help people tried to give either he or his wife. i might say, i know, i have heard other russian people there, for example, would take marina to a grocery store and buy a load of groceries for her and take her back, and one girl that went by and found the baby had a fever and nobody was taking it to the hospital and she took marina and the baby to the hospital for some medical treatment for it, and i had the impression that lee oswald resented this. mr. liebeler. you gained that impression from conversations that you had? mr. ford. from conversations with other people, yes. mr. liebeler. is there any---- mr. ford. i was also going to say---- mr. liebeler. pardon me. mr. ford. i think during the period of that george bouhe, for example, thought it would be helpful for marina to learn english and he tried to encourage her to learn english and i had heard later that lee oswald resented this, he didn't want her to learn english. mr. liebeler. when did you hear that? mr. ford. that was back in . i can't remember the specific time, but---- mr. liebeler. did you have any conversation with mr. and mrs. harris at the party at your place on the th of december? mr. ford. oh, yes; i had conversations with them. mr. liebeler. did you hear of an incident where mrs. harris was trying to teach english to marina at the party and certain american customs and oswald objected to it? mr. ford. i didn't observe it. she may have tried to teach her some american customs. i don't remember hearing oswald say anything about it, lee oswald say anything about it. mr. liebeler. did mrs. harris say anything about it to you? mr. ford. not that i can remember. mr. liebeler. so you have no knowledge of that incident if it occurred at all? mr. ford. no. it seems to me i have heard somebody else mention this but i did not see it or hear anything myself. mr. liebeler. now, after the party on the th of december that was held at your house, when was the next contact that you had with either one of the oswalds? mr. ford. well, i heard a few times or my wife had heard something about marina living in irving, but never actually saw either one of them until after the assassination. then the first contact we had with marina was, i believe, my wife tried to get in touch with her, either invite her to come to my house or to tell her that once things had been cleared up, the investigation had been cleared up, to feel free to come by, and let her know she still had friends. mr. liebeler. did anybody suggest to you shortly after the assassination that marina should come and live with you? mr. ford. no. mr. liebeler. did you ever express any hesitancy to anyone in connection with any suggestion that marina should come and live with you? mr. ford. i don't remember ever expressing it. if somebody had mentioned it the afternoon or next day after the assassination i probably would have been a little bit hesitant about it. but i don't remember saying anything to anybody. mr. liebeler. did there come a time when marina moved into your home after the assassination? mr. ford. yes; but this was in february of this year. mr. liebeler. did you express any hesitancy at that time? mr. ford. no. mr. liebeler. and you don't recall expressing any immediately after the assassination or before? mr. ford. no. i don't remember talking to anybody at all about it. i mean the first few days immediately after the assassination, i don't recall saying anything to anybody about it, where she was going to live at my house or anybody else's. mr. liebeler. did you ever have any conversations with mr. jim martin on that subject? mr. ford. no. mr. liebeler. now prior to the time that marina came to live in your home, your wife has testified she talked to marina on the telephone several times and that marina came to visit on two or three occasions, two occasions, i believe, at your home. mr. ford. yes. mr. liebeler. did you talk to your wife about what marina had said during your wife's visits with marina? mr. ford. when she came to visit us in our home? mr. liebeler. yes. mr. ford. i talked to her about what she had talked to marina, and i couldn't carry on much of a conversation with marina myself because she didn't speak much english but i would ask my wife, and my wife would tell me what she had said. mr. liebeler. do you remember whether there was any discussion about marina's testimony before this commission, either before she went to washington or after she came back? mr. ford. no; not--my wife never told me before she came to washington to testify before the commission. after she came back, i did overhear some conversation between marina, my wife, and mr. william m. mckenzie regarding the testimony given to the commission. mr. liebeler. can you tell us what that was to the best of your recollection? let me ask you this: where did this occur? mr. ford. i think it was in mr. mckenzie's office, it may have been either in his office or my home but i think it was in his office, and i believe the fbi had been questioning her this afternoon, i am not sure of the date, and i came back later to pick up my wife and marina and in my presence mr. mckenzie asked my wife to ask marina in russian if she had told the commission this nixon story. i don't know the details of the story, but something regarding the threat to mr. nixon. and i think marina, again through my wife, told mr. mckenzie that she had not mentioned this to the commission. but that she had mentioned it to the fbi, and she had mentioned it, i believe to the fbi prior to the commission hearing. mr. liebeler. who told you that? mr. ford. well, i was standing there while mr. mckenzie was talking to marina using my wife as a translator. representative ford. was this in your home, did you say? mr. ford. i think it was in mr. mckenzie's office; it might have been in my home. several times i have overheard conversation either in mr. mckenzie's office or at my home. representative ford. it could have been in either? mr. ford. it could have been either, but it seems to me it was at his office. i think as marina said, she had not said anything to the commission about this, and then i think mr. mckenzie asked her why not, and she said well she hadn't thought of it or nobody asked her; something to that effect. i think he was trying to establish whether or not she had purposely withheld information from the commission and she said no. mr. liebeler. did you ever hear marina oswald make any remark to the effect when she was before the commission she just answered questions and did not volunteer anything? mr. ford. i never heard her say that. mr. liebeler. did anybody ever translate that, a remark like that, so that you heard it when it was translated? mr. ford. no; i never heard anybody translate for marina and say that; no. in my presence, i never heard her say that and have it translated by anybody. mr. liebeler. did you ever hear from anybody else that she had said that? mr. ford. not until yesterday when i was talking about it with you, that i can remember anything. mr. liebeler. and yesterday when we talked about it, i asked you the question, had anybody said that, isn't that right? mr. ford. yes. mr. liebeler. did you obtain any information concerning the nixon, any detailed information concerning the nixon affair as a result of detailed conversations with your wife after she had had conversations with marina? i am assuming marina would speak in russian to your wife. did your wife ever tell you what marina had ever said to her about the nixon affair? mr. ford. a little bit, not all the details. but something to the effect that lee oswald was threatening, i don't know whether to shoot nixon, and in some way she had locked him in a bathroom and kept him there, i think all day. he had calmed down or cooled off and wasn't going to do anything. just how she managed to do this, i don't know. mr. liebeler. did you discuss the question with your wife as to how? mr. ford. no; not--again, i never discussed it until yesterday, last night. i was talking to her and wondered how the devil she managed to lock him in the bathroom. mr. liebeler. and you discussed that with your wife last night as a result of a similar question that i asked you yesterday afternoon when we were reviewing the testimony? mr. ford. right. mr. liebeler. did you learn anything relating to the walker affair as a result of conversations with your wife? mr. ford. well, i had read about it in the newspapers; i had read stories that lee oswald had told marina that he had taken a shot at general walker and my wife did tell me later on she asked marina if this were true and i think marina said this was true, that lee oswald had told marina he was the one who had taken a shot at general walker. mr. liebeler. is that the extent of your conversations about the walker incident? mr. ford. no; she mentioned something else that my wife told me about. that after lee had taken a shot at general walker, he had hidden the gun somewhere and went back the next day or a few days later and recovered the gun. and that lee was reading the reports in the newspaper and made some statement, "well, how stupid can the police be," something to this effect. in other words, expressing the idea that the police were unable to find out what happened in the walker incident. and then also marina had said at one time, i believe the day after the shooting of walker or attempted shooting of walker, george de mohrenschildt had come into the house and made some statement to them regarding it. i can't remember the exact words but it was referring to it, walker, somebody shooting at general walker, and asking lee how he could miss and she was surprised that de mohrenschildt knew about it and marina thought lee had told george de mohrenschildt about it. mr. liebeler. did you ever learn how george de mohrenschildt had learned about it? mr. ford. no; i imagine he was surprised that lee had done the shooting and to him it would have been a good joke. mr. liebeler. do you remember anything else about the walker incident that you and your wife may have talked about? mr. ford. yes; we have discussed it some after, i believe, marina came to stay with us, and i expressed the doubt that lee oswald was the one who took a shot at walker. mr. liebeler. did you have any basis for expressing that doubt? mr. ford. the only basis for it was that there was a story in one of the newspapers that they could not identify the bullet taken out of the wood in walker's home as having come from a gun that lee oswald owned, it was too badly destroyed and they couldn't be sure it was the gun, the same gun, that shot the bullets at president kennedy and governor connally. mr. liebeler. so on the basis of that newspaper story you expressed doubts as to whether oswald was actually involved in the walker incident? mr. ford. well, i expressed the doubt. it was possible that he really wasn't the one who took a shot at general walker but just claimed he did and this to me would not be surprising. mr. liebeler. why do you say that? mr. ford. well, i think, my opinion of lee oswald is that he would do anything to gain attention for himself, draw attention to himself, make not necessarily a hero out of himself but just a well-known person. he wanted attention. he wanted to be a big shot. mr. liebeler. and you think in an attempt to do that he might claim he had been the one who shot at walker where, in fact, he was not the one at all? mr. ford. it is possible, i think it is possible. mr. liebeler. did you have any conversations with your wife in which your wife told you anything that marina said about the details of the assassination, about lee's coming home to irving and his leaving for dallas the next morning? mr. ford. well, we talked about it; i don't recall all the details of what my wife told me, whether they were my wife's opinions or things she had heard directly from marina. apparently marina was surprised that he would come home in the middle of the week rather than on weekends or come to visit her, and i gathered that marina had thought of these things after the assassination, as she tried to figure things out. well this increased her belief that lee oswald was the man who assassinated the president, because he did so many strange things that week, i mean that day before, not the week, the day before the assassination. mr. liebeler. to your knowledge, has marina expressed any feeling about oswald's guilt while she lived with you or while you were acquainted with her after the assassination, other than the fact he was guilty? mr. ford. no; so far as i know she just accepts the fact he was guilty. he was the man who shot the president. and she believes this is true. mr. liebeler. did you ever discuss this question with robert oswald? mr. ford. no, not specifically, i didn't. i never asked robert oswald if he believed that his brother shot the president. mr. liebeler. did oswald ever indicate to you that he did not believe that? mr. ford. not directly. the only thing that might have indicated it was when life published a picture of lee oswald on the front cover and i read a newspaper article which stated that mrs. marguerite oswald was intending to sue life magazine and i wondered why, was the picture faked, and robert oswald said no it was a true picture of lee oswald but the title of the picture, that is what he was upset about, and i think the title was lee oswald holding the gun he either used to shoot or used to kill the president, and i didn't pursue the subject further with him. i don't know specifically what he was upset about, if he thought his brother did shoot the president. there was nothing wrong with the statement except he may not have liked it in print. mr. liebeler. that was the only statement robert oswald made to you about the subject. mr. ford. but he never said he didn't believe his brother did it. mr. liebeler. do you have any other reasons for thinking that oswald is the kind of person who would claim to do something that he hadn't done just to get attention drawn to him? mr. ford. well, yes; i think he was erratic enough in his behavior throughout his whole life to indicate that. of course, i have read a lot about his life since the assassination, so it is not all opinion i formed prior to the assassination. it is hard for me to distinguish which things i thought before the assassination from those i have thought about since the assassination. mr. liebeler. in that respect let me ask you this question: were you surprised when you heard that oswald had been charged with the assassination? mr. ford. yes, i was. mr. liebeler. did you think on the basis of your knowledge of him before the assassination that he would have been capable of such a thing? mr. ford. no; i wouldn't have thought so prior to the assassination and when i first heard he was picked up, i first thought, well, as i said to my wife, "this nut has gone down and got himself mixed up just to get some publicity." representative ford. you said that to your wife? mr. ford. yes; that was my first opinion. when i heard that lee oswald was the man arrested, and i said i think i said, "this idiot has got himself arrested and got himself mixed up to get some publicity". mr. liebeler. what made you say that? mr. ford. again, i considered him to be erratic and unpredictable, i don't know how to explain the things that he would do. for example, he had gone to russia and he didn't like it there, he had gone back to fort worth and he didn't like it there. he didn't seem to like any place that he was, he didn't seem to make lasting friendships with anybody. and he would hop from one job to another, and move from one town to another. he never seemed to be satisfied and i considered his whole behavior rather erratic, and i suppose the main reason was, i felt that he had no desire to support, and i felt this prior to the assassination, he had no desire to support his wife and child, and he wanted and would be quite willing to sponge off anybody to get their support, and this was my primary reason for not wanting to associate with him rather than any political feelings he had. mr. liebeler. how did these things lead you to think that he was not capable of doing the assassination or that he just went there to get involved? mr. ford. prior to the assassination i never even considered the possibility of his killing a man but if somebody had asked me prior to the assassination, i would have answered no, i don't think he would kill anybody. but i don't think i really even considered it. mr. liebeler. you would have---- mr. ford. when the president was assassinated. mr. liebeler. and you would have based that response on the things you mentioned already. is there anything else you would have based that reason on? mr. ford. well, it is difficult to say. my general opinion of the man was that he was strange and he did a lot of things i couldn't understand but i had no reason to think he would attack a person with the intent to kill him. as far as i knew there was nothing he had ever done before that that would indicate he would ever kill anybody. i don't know how you tell ahead of time whether a man can commit murder. i was never worried about him going out and killing somebody: say i would have never said prior to the assassination that you have got to watch out for this guy, he is dangerous. he didn't impress me that way. mr. liebeler. you had information prior to the assassination that he had beaten his wife, did you not? mr. ford. right. mr. liebeler. and did you take that information, would you take that, into consideration in the judgment that you just expressed? mr. ford. no; i don't think so. i think man and wife can fight over a lot of things and it isn't necessary that either one of them would intend to kill somebody. he might become violent toward his wife, who is a much smaller and weaker person but he never impressed me as the type of person who would violently attack another man, for example. mr. ford. when did you first hear that lee oswald was held by the authorities? mr. ford. it was the afternoon of the assassination, i heard on the radio. mr. liebeler. what was your reaction then? mr. ford. just what i said, my first reaction, "this idiot has gone down to get himself some attention and confuse the whole issue." at that time i didn't know he was working in the school book depository building. mr. liebeler. what did you do subsequent to hearing this radio broadcast? mr. ford. let's see; i heard it in a hardware store and i went and picked up my wife who was shopping at the grocery store, picked her up, and told her what i had heard and we went home. i didn't do anything specifically that i can think of. i did not mention it to anybody. mr. liebeler. did you and your wife on the way home from this shopping trip discuss the apprehension of lee oswald and his implication in the affair? mr. ford. well, i told her the police had picked him up, and that he was apparently being held both for the assassination of the president and for shooting a police officer, and my wife was a little bit worried then, i think, about the people's reaction to the children, and she said, well, "don't mention it in front of the children." by the time we got home, i believe linda, my stepdaughter, had already talked on the phone to mrs. anna ray, who had also heard the radio broadcast and called up to ask if my wife had heard it, and, of course, by then it was too late, they knew who lee oswald was, they read who he was, that marina stayed at our house. mr. liebeler. then if i understand it you and your wife voluntarily went down to police headquarters? mr. ford. well, the next sunday. mr. liebeler. two days later? mr. ford. yes; the assassination was on a friday afternoon. on sunday morning, mr. frank ray called me and said he heard on the radio that the fbi had requested anybody who knew lee oswald to please contact them, and he asked me what i was going to do, i said, "well, i don't know, i will call an attorney and see what he suggests." i called max clark at fort worth and he was out, so i called my sister out in los angeles. she is an attorney and married to one, and i said, "who are you supposed to contact if you know information about lee oswald," and she said she assumed it would be the fbi, so i then called the fbi office and made an appointment to talk to an agent and we made the appointment to talk in the fbi office in downtown dallas. while we were driving downtown i stopped to get some gas and the attendant told me that somebody had just shot lee oswald and it was right about that time that i went down to talk with the fbi. mr. liebeler. in this interval between your first reaction and your going to the interview with the fbi, did you and your wife discuss any further the oswald implications? mr. ford. i am sure we discussed it, but i can't remember exactly what we said to each other about it. i think she was worried at first that her children would suffer some prejudice from other people. mr. liebeler. marina's children? mr. ford. no; our children. and, of course, also that marina was and her two children, my wife felt, would be sort of considered persona non grata in this country from then on, but i didn't consider this would happen as long as she was not implicated in a plot to kill the president. i know we discussed it but i just can't remember specifically what we said. mr. liebeler. mr. ford, did you at any time learn of any desire on oswald's part to return to russia? mr. ford. yes; after the assassination i did. mr. liebeler. how did you learn that? mr. ford. well, partly from discussing it, i heard it through friends and then later when marina talked to my wife, i don't remember if this was during the time she visited us during january or after she moved in, but she did tell the story to my wife of his desire, as expressing a desire, to return to russia, and i am a little confused as to what the story was. as nearly as i could make out he had told her he wanted to go back to russia first and then later said, no, he was going--couldn't get a visa to russia and he was going to try to get a visa and go through cuba and then go to russia, and then i think he changed his mind again and said he was going to ask for a visa to cuba, using it as an excuse with the idea of going to russia and then stay in cuba, and somewhere in there i got the idea that marina was not willing to go. he wanted marina to return to russia and i had the impression this was just a--but i couldn't even give you the details of her various statements which led me to the conclusions--as nearly as i could figure out, this was the story she had told my wife and she told me. mr. liebeler. did you learn at any time through your wife or otherwise that marina oswald at one point had contemplated committing suicide? mr. ford. yes. mr. liebeler. tell us about that? mr. ford. well, the first time i heard it was yesterday. mr. liebeler. during our conversations? mr. ford. during our conversations, yesterday. mr. liebeler. and your wife explained to us in our conversations yesterday that she, marina oswald, had told her at onetime contemplated committing suicide? mr. ford. that is right. mr. liebeler. that was the extent of our conversations yesterday? mr. ford. yes, sir. that is right. i think my wife said marina felt so desolate and downhearted that she felt that was the only way out at the time. mr. liebeler. are you finished? mr. ford. yes. mr. liebeler. do you have any other information or knowledge that you think the commission should know about in connection with these matters that we haven't already asked you about? mr. ford. there is nothing i can think of offhand. mr. liebeler. in our conversations yesterday you and your wife and i discussed your testimony today. have we covered those matters here in the testimony and have there been any inconsistencies between what we discussed yesterday and what we have discussed today on the record that you can think of? mr. ford. no; i can't think of any inconsistencies. i assume we have covered everything we discussed yesterday. i can't remember everything we discussed yesterday, so i am just assuming we covered it. mr. liebeler. i have no more questions then. the chairman. have you anything further, congressman ford? representative ford. mr. ford, you drove marina oswald from your home to the ray home? mr. ford. yes. representative ford. in october or november of ? mr. ford. it was in november. representative ford. it was november of . how long a drive is that? mr. ford. it is about minutes. i guess it couldn't be over or miles, , , miles, something like that. representative ford. did you have any conversation with her at that time? mr. ford. no. she couldn't speak but about a half dozen words of english. representative ford. so there was no real conversation between the two of you? mr. ford. no. representative ford. that is all. mr. murray. mr. chief justice, may i confer briefly with counsel? the chairman. where were you born? mr. ford. los angeles. the chairman. did you go to the public schools there? mr. ford. i attended both parochial and public schools in los angeles and glendale. the chairman. then you went to the university of california at los angeles? mr. ford. right. the chairman. where did you go after that. you were in the service, did you say? mr. ford. i was in the service. after i got out of the service i went back to ucla and finished my education and then went to work in the oil industry first in bakersfield and in los angeles, ventura, and then went to work for degollyer and mcnaughton overseas. the chairman. i see. representative ford. how old are you, mr. ford? mr. ford. forty-one. mr. liebeler. mr. ford, were you at any time present in mr. mckenzie's office, william mckenzie, when there was a discussion with marina oswald concerning guns and the gun that was used to or presumably used to attack walker and the gun that was subsequently presumably used to attack the president? mr. ford. i don't remember any discussion. i have been in his office several times when he was discussing things with marina, but i don't remember him ever asking about this gun or discussing this gun. mr. liebeler. did you hear mckenzie at anytime advise marina if she were asked about these guns she should say there was only one gun? mr. ford. i think i did hear him say that once or something to that effect but i don't remember specifically the words. mr. liebeler. can you recall---- mr. ford. but i don't think it was any discussion about the gun used in shooting general walker. mr. liebeler. tell us about it. mr. ford. as nearly as i can remember it, the whole discussion was, he was telling her, he had asked her if there was anything else but this one rifle and she said no, and he said "be sure you always say that there was just this one gun," but i thought he was referring to the gun used only in the case of the assassination. mr. liebeler. he asked her about this before he advised her? mr. ford. apparently this was after she had been interrogated by the fbi and i don't know--i just had the impression they were talking about the possibility that more than one gun was used in the assassination of president kennedy. mr. liebeler. is that the best you can recall about that conversation? mr. ford. the best i can recall, yes. mr. liebeler. that is all. the chairman. thank you very much, mr. ford. i appreciate your coming here with your wife. you have been very helpful. the chairman. let's call mr. gregory. testimony of peter paul gregory mr. gregory, you were given a copy of a statement of the reason for our meeting today, were you not? mr. gregory. no, sir. the chairman. then i will read it to you. this is customary---- mr. gregory. yes, sir. the chairman. we read a statement to the witness. the purpose of this hearing is to take the testimony of mr. and mrs. declan p. ford, and mr. peter paul gregory. the commission has been advised that mr. and mrs. ford made the acquaintance of the oswalds shortly after their arrival in the united states in june of , and that mrs. marina oswald lived in the ford home on two different occasions, in november , and for a period following february , . the commission has also been advised that mr. gregory was contacted by mr. lee harvey oswald shortly after mr. oswald's return from russia as a result of which mr. and mrs. oswald made the acquaintances of a large number of russian speaking people in the dallas and fort worth area. since the commission is inquiring fully into the background and possible motive of lee harvey oswald, the alleged assassin, it intends to ask the above witnesses questions concerning mr. oswald, his associations and relations with others, and any and all matters relating to the assassination. mr. gregory. yes, sir. the chairman. will you raise your right hand and be sworn, please, mr. gregory. do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before this commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. gregory. i do. the chairman. you may be seated. mr. liebeler will ask the questions of you. mr. liebeler. would you state your name for the record, please? mr. gregory. my name is peter paul gregory. mr. liebeler. and will you tell us where you were born? mr. gregory. i was born in chita, siberia. mr. liebeler. would you tell us briefly how you came to the united states? mr. gregory. yes, sir. i came to the united states on or about august , . i landed in san francisco; came from japan where i lived for years prior to that. and my purpose was, of course, to come as an immigrant and to attend the university of california. mr. liebeler. did you attend the university of california? mr. gregory. yes, sir; i enrolled at the university in and i stayed out of the university for a couple of years but i graduated in as a petroleum engineer at berkeley. mr. liebeler. what educational background did you have in russia or japan before you came to the united states? mr. gregory. i started my primary education in russia, in , and my education was interrupted by civil war in . i finished high school or the equivalent of high school in tokyo, japan, where i attended the american school in japan. mr. liebeler. where did you learn to speak english? mr. gregory. i learned it in japan. mr. liebeler. were you personally involved in the civil war in russia? mr. gregory. not personally, no. i was too young; i was only , at the time. mr. liebeler. were any of your relatives involved in that? mr. gregory. my older brother was an officer in the white russian army. mr. liebeler. do you presently reside in fort worth? mr. gregory. yes, sir. i have been residing in fort worth for the past years, and prior to that in the oilfields in the western part of texas for years, and prior to that i resided in california from to . mr. liebeler. you are presently self-employed in fort worth, is that correct? mr. gregory. i am presently chairman of the yates pool engineering committee which is a group of engineers supervising activities in the yates oilfield in pecos county, tex., and i am also a consulting petroleum engineer. mr. liebeler. and you are fluent in the russian language, are you? mr. gregory. i am, i think. mr. liebeler. in fact, you teach russian at the fort worth public library, is that correct? mr. gregory. yes, i do; as a civic enterprise. i teach russian once a week from to weeks a year. mr. liebeler. approximately how long have you been doing that, sir? mr. gregory. for about or years. mr. liebeler. would you tell us about your first contact with lee harvey oswald? mr. gregory. yes, sir. it was in the middle of june . on that particular morning, i was in the office, my telephone rang, and the voice on the other end told me that my name was given to him by the fort worth public library. he knew i was teaching russian at the library, that he was looking for a job as a translator or interpreter in the russian and english languages, and that he would like for me to give him a letter testifying to that effect. he spoke to me in english, so i suggested to him, not knowing who that was, that he might drop by my office and i would be glad to give him a test. he did. he came by the office, about o'clock that morning, and i gave him a short test by simply opening a book at random and asking him to read a paragraph or two and then translate it. he did it very well. so i gave him a letter addressed to whom it may concern that in my opinion he was capable of being an interpreter or a translator. mr. liebeler. what happened after you gave mr. oswald--this individual was lee harvey oswald? mr. gregory. yes, sir; that individual was lee harvey oswald. after that, i asked him--i noticed that he spoke with what i thought to be a polish accent, so i asked him if he were of polish origin, and he stated that he was not, that he was raised in fort worth, tex., but that he learned russian in the soviet union where he lived for - / or years. he also told me that he married a russian girl, and that he brought his wife with him, and that they also had a baby. i told him that i knew of no openings at the time--i didn't know of any--for services of a translator or interpreter, but that if he would leave his address i would be glad to get in touch with him if and when i learned of any such openings. he gave me his address. he lived with his brother at that time at the western edge of fort worth. mr. liebeler. did you ever send him any work as a translator or interpreter? mr. gregory. no, sir. mr. liebeler. did you and mr. oswald have lunch together that day. mr. gregory. yes, sir. it was about noontime when i gave him that test, so i invited him to lunch, and during the lunch being naturally curious about the present day life in the soviet union, i was asking him questions, asked how people lived there, and so forth. he told me that he was employed in a factory in minsk as a sheet-metal worker. he told me a little bit about the working conditions and living conditions in that country. mr. liebeler. did he tell you how he was paid as a worker? mr. gregory. yes; i think i asked him what he was paid and my recollection is that he told me he was getting about rubles a month. i may be wrong about that but that is my recollection. mr. liebeler. did he compare his salary with the salary of other workers in russia? mr. gregory. other workers in the soviet union? mr. liebeler. yes. mr. gregory. no, he did not. by way of comparison. i was curious as to what the purchasing power of his earnings would be, i asked him what rubles would buy, and i think he mentioned, as i say, a pair of shoes cost around rubles. mr. liebeler. did he indicate to you that he had any source of income other than his job at the factory? mr. gregory. no, sir; he did not. mr. liebeler. did he tell you anything about why he went to russia? mr. gregory. the only statement he made that i remember, he said, "i went to the soviet union on my own," but i did not feel like prying into his affairs. i did not press the question. mr. liebeler. did you notice anything about the way he was dressed or anything else about him that would seem strange to you? mr. gregory. yes; it was a very hot morning. you know in texas in the middle of june, it is generally hot. i remember that he wore a flannel, woolen coat, suit, and atrocious looking shoes that were made in russia. i know he was very uncomfortable because he was too warmly dressed for that time of the year. mr. liebeler. did mr. oswald tell you anything else at that time about conditions in the soviet union or his attempt to come back to the united states or bringing his wife back that you can recall? mr. gregory. i don't recall of anything outstanding that he told me. but i think he did tell me that they, he and his wife, left moscow by train, and they went through east germany to berlin, i believe, and that their destination was amsterdam, i believe, where they took a ship to come to new york. mr. liebeler. did he express anything about any difficulties that he might have had in returning to the united states? mr. gregory. no, sir; not to my recollection. mr. liebeler. did it seem extraordinary to you that his wife was able to leave the soviet union with him or didn't you think about that? mr. gregory. i thought at the time it was more than extraordinary. mr. liebeler. why do you say that? mr. gregory. because simply from reading accounts of the difficulties experienced by so many americans who married russian girls in the soviet union, and all the difficulties they had to secure permits from the soviet government for an exit visa for their wives. mr. liebeler. did you discuss that with mr. oswald? mr. gregory. i did not. mr. liebeler. when was the next time you saw him? mr. gregory. the next time was a few days later, and the occasion was this, to the best of my recollection. my youngest son paul, who at the time was a junior at the university of oklahoma, paul majoring in economics and also studying the russian and the german languages, paul expressed a wish to meet marina oswald simply because she was fresh from the country, russia; that presumably her language was pure russian language as compared to mine which became, shall we say, affected by my years living in the united states, is not pure russian any more probably, in fact, he thought that maybe he could take lessons of the russian language from marina oswald. so, i arranged; i called lee oswald at his brother's residence, and asked if it would be, if they would be, at home, that my son and i would come out to visit them, and we did. i don't remember the date but it must have been within possibly within days, the first days after his initial contact with me at the office. mr. liebeler. let us try to set the date of your initial contact. i have here a copy, not a confirmed copy, but just a typewritten copy of a letter entitled "to whom it may concern." i show it to you and ask you if that is the letter to the best of your recollection that you gave to mr. oswald? mr. gregory. i think that is a copy of the letter i gave. that was on june , . mr. liebeler. i ask that it be admitted in evidence and marked as the next exhibit. the chairman. it may be marked. it will be marked as exhibit . very well, it is admitted as exhibit . (the letter referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification and received in evidence.) mr. gregory. i would hazard a guess that the second contact with lee oswald that i just referred to was made, say, around the th, toward the end of june . mr. liebeler. and you went to see him at his brother's house? mr. gregory. at his brother robert's, robert oswald's house. paul and i spent there perhaps an hour, speaking russian with marina, and mostly with marina. they showed some pictures, snapshots of their friends, of themselves, taken in minsk. we talked about the living conditions, just in a very general way. mr. liebeler. did you discuss politics with mr. oswald? mr. gregory. no, sir; we did not. mr. liebeler. did you discuss politics with him at any time? mr. gregory. not with lee oswald, no. mr. liebeler. did you get the impression from just talking to the oswalds at this time that oswald was treated pretty much as other russians were in russia or did you think he had a special situation there in any way? mr. gregory. my personal impression was that he was treated there as the rest of the russians. mr. liebeler. did your son subsequently have additional contacts with the oswalds? mr. gregory. yes. he and i made arrangements for marina oswald to give him lessons, conversational lessons, i believe it was twice a week, and paul paid her for these lessons. i don't remember the exact amount, whether it came under the minimum or not, it was around a dollar and a half an hour. and he took those lessons after he made a visit to his aunt in san francisco in july of . so, i would say that he took lessons from marina oswald, say, from approximately august to september when he went back to the university of oklahoma. mr. liebeler. do you remember when the last contact was that your son had with the oswalds? mr. gregory. to the best of my knowledge his last contact with them was the thanksgiving day of . mr. liebeler. did your son tell you whether he had discussions with oswald concerning politics and economics and things like that? mr. gregory. he mentioned once, i believe, that there were political discussions. mr. liebeler. what did he tell you about that? mr. gregory. he told me that he thought lee oswald was pretty silly in his views. the chairman. pretty silly? mr. gregory. silly. the chairman. silly. mr. liebeler. did he express any other---- mr. gregory. he also mentioned that he saw some book on marxism, whether it was das kapital or some other book i don't recall now, but he saw a book on marxism in lee's residence when they lived on mercedes street in fort worth. mr. liebeler. did he say in words or substance that he thought that oswald was a half-baked communist? mr. gregory. i think that is the expression he used, yes. mr. liebeler. now, did there--did you ever go to oswald's own apartment? mr. gregory. yes, i went there once to take paul to his lesson. i, in other words i visited in their so-called living room once, when they lived on mercedes street. mr. liebeler. in fort worth? mr. gregory. in fort worth, yes, sir. mr. liebeler. would you tell us what the conditions in their home were like? mr. gregory. it was practically a bare room. there was no furniture to speak of. there was the bare necessities; there was no playpen or crib for the baby. the baby was playing in the middle of the floor in the living room, as i remember. it was an extremely primitively furnished room, and the rest of the house was the same way. mr. liebeler. did you have any impression as to whether the oswald baby was being adequately cared for? mr. gregory. no; that i don't know. i do know this, that oswald showed outward signs of love toward the baby. he would pucker his lips and this and that. mr. liebeler. indicating that he had affection for the child? mr. gregory. for the child. mr. liebeler. at that visit did you have any discussion with oswald about living conditions or anything else in russia? mr. gregory. no, sir; i simply took paul in for that lesson, and i left before the lesson began. mr. liebeler. now, did there come a time when you held a dinner party to which you invited mr. oswald? mr. gregory. yes. well, really, it was not a dinner party. it was a small dinner. i mentioned the fact that marina oswald went to school in leningrad, formerly st. petersburg prior to the revolution, and a friend of mine, george bouhe of dallas, who is an accountant, was born and raised in st. petersburg. he indicated to me that he would like to meet marina oswald and his fellow townswoman and townsman, so i discussed it with my wife, and she thought she will invite marina oswald and lee oswald and mr. bouhe, and a friend of mr. bouhe, mrs. meller of dallas, to their dinner. i am sure paul was at home at that time, so there were six of us at the dinner and my wife and my son. mr. liebeler. will you tell us when the dinner was held? mr. gregory. yes; it was before paul went back to school so i assume it was in the early party of september, maybe it was late in august. mr. liebeler. mr. bouhe is a native born russian? mr. gregory. yes; he was born in st. petersburg. mr. liebeler. what about mrs. meller? mr. gregory. i assume mrs. meller was born in ukrania. mr. liebeler. during this dinner party was there any discussion between mrs. meller and mr. bouhe with the oswalds concerning their background, experiences in russia? mr. gregory. the conversation, as i recall it, centered mostly on st. petersburg. bouhe brought with him his albums of st. petersburg, and he was asking her and they were both looking at the pictures, and is such and such statue on the main street of st. petersburg, and so on and so forth. i think that was the gist of the conversation. they also discussed the present day life in the soviet union. i do recall, the conversation was mostly with marina, and she did not speak any english at that time, so all of that conversation was in the russian language, which my wife does not understand at all. i remembered that lee oswald hazarded, he would interject into the conversation, and he was a little bit critical of the attitude of the soviet government toward its own people, and here is what i am trying to say; he said they make the best shoes in minsk for export, and the people get the--and i think he indicated his own shoes, which he still wore at that time. then just very, very slight criticism, not politically, but sort of in the sense of economics that the people were not getting the best products, they were all for export. mr. liebeler. now, at that time was there any indication that oswald was better treated than other people in the soviet union or did you maintain the impression throughout your acquaintance with oswald that he was treated similarly to other russians? mr. gregory. that was my impression, that he was treated the same as other russians. mr. liebeler. did you detect any friction between marina oswald and lee oswald at this dinner? mr. gregory. no, sir. mr. liebeler. was there any indication at that time that lee oswald had beaten his wife in any way? mr. gregory. not at that time; no, sir. mr. liebeler. did you ever see any indication that marina oswald had been beaten? mr. gregory. no, sir; i haven't seen it personally. i have heard reports from my friends that he did mistreat her physically, and that he had blackened her eyes, and once even extinguished a cigarette on her shoulder, something like that. mr. liebeler. who told you that? mr. gregory. to the best of my recollection it was either--i think it was bouhe or it could have been mrs. meller, but i believe it was bouhe. mr. liebeler. that was at a time subsequent to this dinner party? mr. gregory. yes, sir; subsequent. it was after the assassination of the president. mr. liebeler. that bouhe told you? mr. gregory. yes. mr. liebeler. did oswald at all discuss the reason why he went to russia? mr. gregory. no; he just told me, you know once, the very first time i met him that he went there on his own. mr. liebeler. did he indicate any desire to return to russia? mr. gregory. i learned subsequently that he did but he never indicated it to me. mr. liebeler. do you know whether oswald maintained contacts with people that he had associated with in russia? mr. gregory. none to my knowledge. mr. liebeler. you don't know that he wrote them letters? mr. gregory. no, sir. excuse me, sir, when you asked me about his relations with marina oswald, i don't know whether this is of any importance or not, but during my first visit at their apartment on mercedes street in fort worth, the second time i saw marina, i suggested to him that he should insist that she learn english as quickly as possible because it would be so much easier for her to get along in this country, and he replied that he would prefer that she did not learn english at all or else he would lose his fluency in the russian language. so it showed to me that he didn't particularly care about her. he cared more about himself. mr. liebeler. did you say anything to him in response to that? mr. gregory. no, sir; i was frankly very much disgusted with that sort of attitude. mr. liebeler. did oswald ever come to your office? mr. gregory. yes, he came to my office once or twice more. once i was in the office when he came, and at that time, apparently he was downtown, my office is downtown in fort worth, he brought with him some typewritten sheets which he told me he was writing his memoirs of his life in the soviet union. i remember seeing, i did not read the manuscripts at all, but i saw some snapshots or photographs attached to some typewritten sheets. mr. liebeler. during this time that you--did you have any other contacts with oswald? mr. gregory. well, he came to the office once more but i was not in the office, my secretary told me that he came by. mr. liebeler. do you remember what he came to your office for? did he indicate any particular reason for coming there? mr. gregory. i don't recall. i don't know why he came back. frankly, i don't remember. here is something else that--one of the newspaper reporters came to the office and asked me if i would deliver a letter to oswald, a reporter who tried several times to contact oswald and get the story of his life or something like that, and they simply refused to see him. why he choose me, i don't know. how he learned that oswald came to my office, i don't know. but this man came and asked me to deliver this letter to oswald the next time he came to the office, and i remember now that he did come once or twice more because i handed him that letter, and oswald took it and put it in his pocket. representative ford. when were these visits, the second and third visits to your office? mr. gregory. i would say that was probably during the month of july . representative ford. . mr. liebeler. did oswald ever ask you to help him work on a book? mr. gregory. no, sir. mr. liebeler. that he was working on? mr. gregory. no, sir. mr. liebeler. other than these contacts we have discussed, did you have any other contacts with oswald ever? mr. gregory. well, i was at home when my son paul answered a telephone call from lee oswald and he asked if paul would come to get them, i guess they were at his brother's, they were going to dallas, they moved to dallas by then, so it must have been in october or maybe it was---- mr. liebeler. was it thanksgiving? mr. gregory. it could have been thanksgiving. it was thanksgiving. it was thanksgiving day. paul went to oswald, robert oswald, and brought marina and lee oswald and the baby to the house. he fixed some sandwiches for them and he took them to the bus station and they went to dallas where they had already established residence. that was the last time i saw lee oswald and marina oswald until after the assassination of the president. mr. liebeler. on the basis of your contacts with lee oswald during this period of time, did you form any judgment of him? mr. gregory. yes, sir; i think i did. he impressed me as a man that, first, he carried some sort of a chip on his shoulder. i also had the impression that, probably unfounded on my part, i don't know, i just formed that impression, that he, lee oswald, felt that he did not get proper recognition from the people, say, in the united states, maybe even in the soviet union. i don't know. in other words, i felt like he thought that he was a better man than the other people thought he was. mr. liebeler. did you have the feeling that he desired to achieve recognition? mr. gregory. that is my distinct impression of him. mr. liebeler. did you have any opinion as to whether he was ever able to command this recognition and respect that he was seeking? mr. gregory. i don't think so. mr. liebeler. did you think he was an intelligent person? mr. gregory. fairly. mr. liebeler. do you think he was capable of performing an act such as an assassination of a president? mr. gregory. definitely. mr. liebeler. what do you base that opinion on? mr. gregory. well, he was a marine; he, as i said, he carried a chip on his shoulder. from the best--from what i have read and so forth, i personally am of the opinion that he assassinated the president. mr. liebeler. well now, based on your knowledge of him prior to the assassination did you have any reason to believe that he might do such a thing? mr. gregory. prior to that time, no, sir. i didn't. mr. liebeler. you didn't regard him as a dangerous individual or something of that sort, did you? mr. gregory. well, i thought he was--i did not think he was an unbalanced person or crazy person or anything like that. i would say he was sort of, i would say i thought he was sort of a peculiar person but i never thought he would do an act like that. mr. liebeler. did you ever make the acquaintance of the mother? mr. gregory. yes. mr. liebeler. would you tell us about that? mr. gregory. yes. as i mentioned earlier, i teach russian once a week at the library. we started a new series of lessons on november , , and in my class there was a lady by the name of marguerite oswald. frankly, i never connected her with lee oswald. oswald was just a name to me, and i did not learn about it until the day of the assassination. or the next day, the next day, that she was his mother. mr. liebeler. did mrs. oswald call you on the telephone at any time after the assassination? mr. gregory. yes. she called me---- mr. liebeler. tell us about it? mr. gregory. sunday morning, november , about o'clock in the morning, from dallas. representative ford. this is the mother called? mr. gregory. the mother. sunday morning about o'clock in the morning, and she said, i still remember, she said, "mr. gregory, i need your help. the reporters, the news media were badgering me." i think that is the word she used. she said, "i wonder if some of your friends or you could provide a place for me to hide from them." and it sounded like she was crying on the telephone, although i think that woman is not taken to crying. so i told her--she did not want to identify herself when she called me first. i asked her, i said, "who are you?" and she said, "i would rather not tell you who i am but i shall identify myself by saying i am one of the students in the russian class in the library." of course, i knew it was mrs. oswald. in fact, i guessed who she was before she even tried to identify herself. so i told her, i said, "now, i will tell you what i will do, mrs. oswald, you stay where you are and i will promise to you that i will come to see you sometime today." of course, i knew where she was because the secret service told me where they had her before. mr. liebeler. the secret service contacted you the day before? mr. gregory. yes. mr. liebeler. on saturday? mr. gregory. yes. mr. liebeler. isn't it a fact they had asked you to come and translate an interview with marina oswald? mr. gregory. that is correct. mr. liebeler. but you didn't do it because you didn't need to do it that day? mr. gregory. no, sir. mr. liebeler. did you see lee oswald that day? mr. gregory. no, i did not see him. mr. liebeler. did you later on sunday go to see mrs. marguerite oswald? mr. gregory. yes. as soon as i hung up the phone, i was talking to marguerite oswald, i called the u.s. secret service and reported this call, of course, and an agent, i called agent howard, who lives just north of fort worth, and he said, "well, that is fine, we will find a hiding place for her, for marguerite and marina oswald and the babies," and he suggested he come by my house in a matter of minutes or an hour and we will go to dallas and then proceed from there. and that is what we did then. we went to dallas. mr. liebeler. you went to the executive inn where marina and mrs. oswald were staying at that time, is that right? mr. gregory. yes, sir; we went to the executive inn, and on the way we stopped en route on the turnpike, where the agents arranged a rendezvous with robert oswald and other agents, and we went to the executive inn in dallas by the airport, and robert and i went in and we told the women to pack up, that we were going to take them to, robert told them we were going to take them to, the farm of his wife's parents, north of fort worth. mr. liebeler. but mrs. oswald objected to that? mr. gregory. yes, she objected, she said she didn't want to go there. but i told her that she bothered me to come, to call me at the house to provide a place for her and here i am, and if she doesn't like it then i am just through with her. mr. liebeler. you told her that? mr. gregory. so she packed up and we got with the agents in two or three cars, two cars, and we started toward that farm of robert oswald's parents. but en route we detoured because marguerite oswald mentioned the fact that the two little babies were all wet, and that there were no diaper change for them, that marina and she had no change of dresses, and so forth, and she insisted that we go by irving where marina lived with ruth paine. mr. liebeler. then you went and obtained some materials for the babies there? mr. gregory. well, we didn't go to the house because we got the report that lee oswald was shot. you see, that all happened sunday morning, it was o'clock in the morning, we were driving from dallas to irving and we got this report that lee was shot, and the police advised us not to go to the house because there was a mob, so we went to the chief of police of irving, to his residence. marina telephoned ruth paine from there to gather these things for the babies and a change of dress for her and some money and so forth. mr. liebeler. you went from there, then, to parkland hospital where some events occurred and then you came back to the inn of the six flags? mr. gregory. that is correct. mr. liebeler. i want to ask you about something that might have happened or happened at the inn of the six flags. there has been a newspaper report, and mrs. marguerite oswald has said that on saturday night an fbi agent came to the executive inn and showed her a picture of a man who she claims to be jack ruby. have you seen newspaper reports to that effect? mr. gregory. yes, i have seen reports to that effect. mr. liebeler. now, mrs. oswald says, also, that while at the inn of the six flags she observed a newspaper that had jack ruby's picture in it and exclaimed in the presence of other people that that was the same picture as the fbi had showed her, that is what she says. did you ever hear her say anything like that? mr. gregory. no, sir; not to my recollection. mr. liebeler. she never did anything like that in your presence? mr. gregory. no, sir. mr. liebeler. after you met mrs. oswald, marguerite oswald, and had a chance to observe her, did that further your judgment of lee harvey oswald in any way? mr. gregory. yes, sir. i felt that a lot of his, many of his, peculiarities, possibly were brought on by the influence of his mother. to me, she impressed me as being not necessarily rational. she is quite clever, but she certainly is most peculiar. she demands public attention, she wants to be the center of attention. as, for example, standing there in the middle of the room at the motel of that six flags, standing in the middle of the room saying "i want to make a statement," and she made those statements throughout the frequent intervals and always she would precede the statement by saying, "i want to make a statement. i feel that my son can't be buried anywhere but at the arlington national cemetery." mr. liebeler. and you detected similarities between mrs. oswald and lee? mr. gregory. yes; i felt they both craved public recognition or to be craving attention or publicity or whatever you wish to call it. mr. liebeler. in our conversation last evening about your testimony, i asked you about mrs. ruth paine, and you told me that mrs. ruth paine had come to visit you at a time subsequent to the assassination. mr. gregory. no, sir; she never did. ruth paine? mr. liebeler. yes. mr. gregory. no. she called me on the phone once. mr. liebeler. called on the telephone? mr. gregory. yes. but i have never met her. mr. liebeler. what was the conversation between you and her? mr. gregory. she asked me if i would tutor her in writing letters in russian. if i remember, she mentioned that she either was going to write to the soviet embassy or soviet union, something like that, but i told her i was just too busy, i have no time for that. in fact, i didn't want to have anything to do with that sort of--i didn't want to write letters to the soviet union or to the embassy or anybody else. representative ford. how long have you taught russian, mr. gregory? mr. gregory. in the library? representative ford. yes. mr. gregory. for approximately or years from to weeks a year. representative ford. have you taught russian in any other area or capacity? mr. gregory. yes, sir; i taught russian a couple of years ago, not more than years ago, at carswell air force base at fort worth, where i had a class of officers and men in the russian language. with the result that two out of my class passed the russian examination, and the rest flunked. representative ford. how long would you estimate it would normally take for a person of average intelligence to learn to speak and write russian as fluently as oswald did? mr. gregory. if he lived in this country or in that country? that would make a lot of difference. representative ford. well, let's take this country first. mr. gregory. this country. that would depend again on the effort put out by the particular individual. if he were in earnest i would think he could do it in about years. representative ford. that is an ordinary person living in the united states? mr. gregory. living in the united states. representative ford. who made---- mr. gregory. going to study russian, say at the university, normal load, maybe hours a week, plus homework, it would take about years. if he lived in the country---- representative ford. in the soviet union? mr. gregory. in the soviet union, he probably could do it in or years. representative ford. did oswald tell you when he first visited you that he had learned to speak russian, where? mr. gregory. in the soviet union. representative ford. he never gave you any indication he had learned or studied prior to going to the soviet union? mr. gregory. no, sir. mr. liebeler. i have about one or two more questions. did you discuss at any time with marina oswald the conversation that she had with lee oswald after the assassination? mr. gregory. would you mind to state that again? mr. liebeler. yes. marina oswald spoke with lee after the assassination, when he was in the jail. mr. gregory. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. did she tell you about that? mr. gregory. well, i don't remember whether it was marina or whether it was marguerite oswald. i don't remember now; they did go to see him in the jail in the city of dallas, and it must have been marguerite because she was bragging what a wonderful son he is because he looked at the little girl, june, she is years old, and he said, "you have got to buy her a new pair of shoes," i remember that. it must have been marguerite because she used that as an illustration of what a wonderful boy he was. mr. liebeler. other than that, you have no information as to what transpired at that time, happened at that time? mr. gregory. no. mr. liebeler. would it be fair to say, mr. gregory, that it was through oswald's contact with you that he subsequently made the association with and contact with the other members of the russian community in dallas and fort worth? mr. gregory. i think that would be a fair statement, yes. mr. liebeler. i have no more questions. the chairman. congressman? representative ford. i have one more, mr. gregory. i believe marina has testified when she first met lee harvey oswald it was approximately months after he had arrived in the soviet union. she testified, also, that she could not tell whether he was a native born resident of the soviet union or a foreigner by the way he spoke. mr. gregory. yes. representative ford. is that unusual? mr. gregory. well, frankly. i don't know. you see, congressman, the city of minsk is what we call, they call it, not we call, they call it in the white russia republic. you know they called this the union of republics, you know, in the white russian republic, and minsk, i guess, is the capital of it. it is fairly close to poland, and there are all sorts of people, poles, lithuanians, probably latvians, that lived in that part of the country, and none of those people speak pure russian. now, whether she had reference, whether that had anything to do with her statement---- representative ford. her observations? mr. gregory. right; i don't know. now, i thought that lee oswald spoke with a polish accent, that is why i asked him if he was of polish descent. representative ford. but leaving---- mr. gregory. but, otherwise, i would say it would be rather unusual, rather unusual for a person who lived in the soviet union for months that he would speak so well that a native russian would not be sure whether he was born in that country or not. representative ford. that would be a very unusual kind of a person? mr. gregory. it would be, yes. representative ford. or a person who had unusual training? mr. gregory. right, or unusual ability or training, yes, that is right. representative ford. that is all, mr. chairman. the chairman. thank you very much, mr. gregory. you have been very helpful. (whereupon, at p.m., the president's commission recessed.) _monday, march , _ testimony of comdr. james j. humes, comdr. j. thornton boswell, and lt. col. pierre a. finck the president's commission met at p.m. on march , , at maryland avenue ne., washington, d.c. present were chief justice earl warren, chairman; senator john sherman cooper, representative gerald r. ford, john j. mccloy, and allen w. dulles, members. also present were j. lee rankin, general counsel; francis w. h. adams, assistant counsel; norman redlich, assistant counsel; arlen specter, assistant counsel; and charles murray, observer. testimony of comdr. james j. humes the chairman. the commission will be in order. commander humes, will you please step up. you know, commander, what we have met for today to take your testimony concerning the autopsy and anything else you might know concerning the assassination of the president. would you raise your right hand, please? do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before this commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you god? commander humes. i do. the chairman. will you be seated? you may proceed. mr. specter. dr. humes, will you state your full name for the record, please? commander humes. james joseph humes. mr. specter. and what is your profession or occupation, please? commander humes. i am a physician and employed by the medical department of the united states navy. mr. specter. what is your rank in the navy? commander humes. commander, medical corps. united states navy. mr. specter. where did you receive your education, commander humes, please. commander humes. i had my undergraduate training at st. joseph's college at villanova university in philadelphia. i received my medical degree in from the jefferson medical college of philadelphia. i received my internship and my postgraduate training in my special field of interest in pathology in various naval hospitals, and at the armed forces institute of pathology at walter reed in washington, d.c. mr. specter. what do your current duties involve? commander humes. my current title is director of laboratories of the naval medical school at naval medical center at bethesda. i am charged with the responsibility of the overall supervision of all of the laboratory operations in the naval medical center, two broad areas, one in the field of anatomic pathology which comprises examining surgical specimens and postmortem examinations and then the rather large field of clinical pathology which takes in examination of the blood and various body fluids. mr. specter. have you been certified by the american board of pathology? commander humes. yes, sir; both in anatomic pathology and in clinical pathology in . mr. specter. what specific experience have you had, if any, with respect to gunshot wounds? commander humes. my type of practice, which fortunately has been in peacetime endeavor to a great extent, has been more extensive in the field of natural disease than violence. however, on several occasions in various places where i have been employed, i have had to deal with violent death, accidents, suicides, and so forth. also i have had training at the armed forces institute of pathology, i have completed a course in forensic pathology there as part of my training in the overall field of pathology. mr. specter. did you have occasion to participate in the autopsy of the late john f. kennedy on november , ? commander humes. yes, sir; i did. mr. specter. what was your specific function in connection with that autopsy? commander humes. as the senior pathologist assigned to the naval medical center, i was called to the center by my superiors and informed that the president's body would be brought to our laboratories for an examination, and i was charged with the responsibility of conducting and supervising this examination; told to also call upon anyone whom i wished as an assistant in this matter, that i deemed necessary to be present. mr. specter. who did assist you, if anyone, in the course of the autopsy? commander humes. my first assistant was commander j. thornton boswell, whose position is chief of pathology at the naval medical school, and my other assistant was lt. col. pierre finck, who is in the wound ballistics section of the armed forces institute of pathology. when i ascertained the nature of the president's wounds, having had the facilities of the armed forces institute of pathology offered to me by general blumberg, the commanding officer of that institution, i felt it advisable and would be of help to me to have the services of an expert in the field of wound ballistics and for that reason i requested colonel finck to appear. mr. specter. tell us who else in a general way was present at the time the autopsy was conducted in addition to you three doctors, please? commander humes. this, i must preface by saying it will be somewhat incomplete. my particular interest was on the examination of the president and not of the security measures of the other people who were present. however, the surgeon general of the navy was present at one time or another. admiral galloway, the commanding officer of the national naval medical center; my own commanding officer, captain john h. stover of the naval medical school, dr. john ebersole, one of the radiologists assigned to the naval hospital, bethesda, who assisted with x-ray examinations which were made. these are the chief names, sir; that i can recall. mr. specter. what time did the autopsy start approximately? commander humes. the president's body was received at minutes before , and the autopsy began at approximately p.m. on that evening. you must include the fact that certain x-rays and other examinations were made before the actual beginning of the routine type autopsy examination. mr. specter. precisely what x-rays or photographs were taken before the dissection started? commander humes. some of these x-rays were taken before and some during the examination, which also maintains for the photographs, which were made as the need became apparent to make such. however, before the postmortem examination was begun, anterior, posterior and lateral x-rays of the head, and of the torso were made, and identification type photographs, i recall having been made of the full face of the late president. a photograph showing the massive head wound with the large defect that was associated with it. to my recollection all of these were made before the proceedings began. several others, approximately to in number, were made in total before we finished the proceedings. mr. specter. now were those x-rays or photographs or both when you referred to the total number? commander humes. by the number i would say they are in number to . there probably was ten or x-ray films exposed in addition. mr. specter. what time did this autopsy end? commander humes. at approximately p.m. mr. specter. what wounds did you observe on the late president, if any? commander humes. the wounds which we observed on the president were--excuse me, at this point might i use the charts which i have prepared? would that be appropriate? mr. specter. yes; would you like to start with the neck wound? commander humes. all right, sir. i might preface my remarks by stating that the president's body was received in our morgue in a closed casket. we opened the casket, dr. boswell and i, and the president's body was unclothed in the casket, was wrapped in a sheet labeled by the parkland hospital, but he was unclothed once the sheet was removed from his body so we do not have at that time any clothing. mr. specter. dr. humes, before you identify what that represents let me place commission exhibit no. on it so it may be identified. (the drawing was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) commander humes. when appraised of the necessity for our appearance before this commission, we did not know whether or not the photographs which we had made would be available to the commission. so to assist in making our testimony more understandable to the commission members, we decided to have made drawings, schematic drawings, of the situation as we saw it, as we recorded it and as we recall it. these drawings were made under my supervision and that of dr. boswell by mr. rydberg, whose initials are h. a. he is a hospital corpsman, second class, and a medical illustrator in our command at naval medical school. mr. specter. did you provide him with the basic information from which these drawings were made? commander humes. yes, sir. mr. specter. distances, that sort of thing? commander humes. yes, sir. we had made certain physical measurements of the wounds, and of their position on the body of the late president, and we provided these and supervised directly mr. rydberg in making these drawings. mr. specter. have you checked the drawings subsequent to their preparation to verify their accuracy? commander humes. yes, sir. mr. specter. and proportion? commander humes. i must state these drawings are in part schematic. the artist had but a brief period of some days to prepare these. he had no photographs from which to work, and had to work under our description, verbal description, of what we had observed. mr. specter. would it be helpful to the artist, in redefining the drawings if that should become necessary, to have available to him the photographs or x-rays of the president? commander humes. if it were necessary to have them absolutely true to scale. i think it would be virtually impossible for him to do this without the photographs. mr. specter. and what is the reason for the necessity for having the photographs? commander humes. i think that it is most difficult to transmit into physical measurements the--by word the--exact situation as it was seen to the naked eye. the photographs were--there is no problem of scale there because the wounds, if they are changed in size or changed in size and proportion to the structures of the body and so forth, when we attempt to give a description of these findings, it is the bony prominences, i cannot, which we used as points of references, i cannot, transmit completely to the illustrator where they were situated. mr. specter. is the taking of photographs and x-rays routine or is this something out of the ordinary? commander humes. no, sir; this is quite routine in cases of this sort of violent death in our training. in the field of forensic pathology we have found that the photographs and x-rays are of most value, the x-rays particularly in finding missiles which have a way of going in different directions sometimes, and particularly as documentary evidence these are considered invaluable in the field of forensic pathology. mr. specter. will you now proceed to show us what commission exhibit depicts, please? commander humes. actually, i think, sir, at this time the view from the posterior aspect would also be of value to the commission. this is---- mr. specter. doctor, i hand you the second exhibit which is marked commission exhibit no. . (commission exhibit no. was marked for identification.) commander humes. i believe at this point i would like to have, if you have my gross autopsy description because i will give the dimensions of these wounds at this time. mr. specter. we will use the commission exhibit no. and i will ask you first of all, for the record, to identify what this document is, dr. humes. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) commander humes. this document is a copy of the gross autopsy report which was prepared by myself, dr. boswell, and dr. finck, and completed within approximately hours after the assassination of the president. mr. specter. does that report bear your signature at its end? commander humes. it bears my signature on the first or covering page as well as on my last page, sir. mr. specter. will you now proceed to tell us what you observed with respect to the wound which is marked as appearing in the upper back or lower neck? mr. mccloy. have you identified that? mr. specter. the one on the side is and the one of the rear view is . and that one is . for purposes of our record, if you will, put them in as and for our printed record. you might want to put them in chalk above them so you will see the one on the left is and on the right is . commander humes. these exhibits again are schematic representations of what we observed at the time of examining the body of the late president. exhibit shows in the low neck an oval wound which--excuse me, i wish to get the measurements correct. this wound was situated just above the upper border of the scapula, and measured by millimeters, with its long axis roughly parallel to the long axis of vertical column. we saw--i would rather not discuss the situation of the anterior neck at this time or would you prefer it? mr. specter. how would you prefer to do it, dr. humes? commander humes. i would prefer to discuss the wounds, two wounds, we saw posteriorly and the wound, other wound, of the skull before going to that. mr. specter. that is fine, dr. humes, do it any way you find convenient. i will give you the other drawing and you can do them both together. let the third drawing be marked as commission exhibit no. . (the drawing referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) commander humes. the wound in the low neck of which i had previously begun to speak is now posteriorly--is now depicted in , in and in . the second wound was found in the right posterior portion of the scalp. this wound was situated approximately . centimeters to the right, and slightly above the external occipital protuberance which is a bony prominence situated in the posterior portion of everyone's skull. this wound was then - / centimeters to the right and slightly above that point. the third obvious wound at the time of the examination was a huge defect over the right side of the skull. this defect involved both the scalp and the underlying skull, and from the brain substance was protruding. this wound measured approximately centimeters in greatest diameter. it was difficult to measure accurately because radiating at various points from the large defect were multiple crisscrossing fractures of the skull which extended in several directions. i have noted in my report that a detailed description of the lines of these fractures and of the types of fragments that were thus made were very difficult of verbal description, and it was precisely for this reason that the photographs were made so one might appreciate more clearly how much damage had been done to the skull. mr. specter. were the photographs made available then, dr. humes, when exhibit was prepared? commander humes. no, sir. mr. specter. all right. commander humes. the photographs, to go back a moment, the photographs and the x-rays were exposed in the morgue of the naval medical center on this night, and they were not developed, neither the x-rays or the photographs. they were submitted to the, and here, if i make a mistake i am not certain, to either the federal bureau of investigation or to the secret service, i am not sure of those. mr. specter. did you submit those yourself immediately after they were taken, dr. humes? commander humes. again, one of the senior people present, i believe my own commanding officer, captain stover, took care of turning this material over to these authorities, and receiving a receipt for this information, for this material. it was--i supervised the positioning of the body for various of these examinations but as far as beyond that, i did not consider that my responsibility. these, then, were the three wounds which were quite obvious at the time of the examination. i could expand further on the general appearances of these wounds or i could turn to the anterior portion of the body and describe various other wounds which were present. mr. specter. you were focusing on before i last asked a question, dr. humes. why don't you describe in general terms the nature of the wound which was present at the top of the head of the late president? commander humes. with your permission, sir, and mr. chief justice, i think i might describe those two wounds together, and describe the defects in the scalp and in the skull in each instance. mr. specter. that would be fine. commander humes. would that be appropriate? mr. specter. yes. commander humes. turning now to commission exhibit , where we have depicted in the posterior right portion of the skull a wound which we have labeled "in" or a wound of entrance and a large roughly cm. diameter defect in the right lateral vertex of the skull. i would go into some further detail in describing these wounds. the scalp, i mentioned previously, there was a defect in the scalp and some scalp tissue was not available. however, the scalp was intact completely past this defect. in other words, this wound in the right posterior region was in a portion of scalp which had remained intact. so, we could see that it was the measurement which i gave before, i believe by millimeters. when one reflected the scalp away from the skull in this region, there was a corresponding defect through both tables of the skull in this area. mr. specter. will you describe what you mean by both tables, dr. humes? commander humes. yes, sir. the skull is composed of two layers of bone. we will put the scalp in in dotted lines. the two solid lines will represent the two layers of the skull bone, and in between these two layers is loose somewhat irregular bone. when we reflected the scalp, there was a through and through defect corresponding with the wound in the scalp. this wound had to us the characteristics of a wound of entrance for the following reason: the defect in the outer table was oval in outline, quite similar to the defect in the skin. mr. specter. you are referring there, doctor, to the wound on the lower part of the neck? commander humes. no, sir; i am speaking here of the wound in the occiput. the wound on the inner table, however, was larger and had what in the field of wound ballistics is described as a shelving or a coning effect. to make an analogy to which the members of the commission are probably most familiar, when a missile strikes a pane of glass, a typical example, a b-b fired by a child's air rifle, when this strikes a pane of glass there will be a small, usually round to oval defect on the side of the glass from whence the missile came and a belled-out or coned-out surface on the opposite side of the glass from whence the missile came. (at this point, mr. dulles entered the hearing room.) commander humes. experience has shown and my associates and colonel finck, in particular, whose special field of interest is wound ballistics can give additional testimony about this scientifically observed fact. this wound then had the characteristics of wound of entrance from this direction through the two tables of the skull. mr. specter. when you say "this direction," will you specify that direction in relationship to the skull? commander humes. at that point i mean only from without the skull to within. mr. specter. fine, proceed. commander humes. having ascertained to our satisfaction and incidentally photographs illustrating this phenomenon from both the external surface of the skull and from the internal surface were prepared, we concluded that the large defect to the upper right side of the skull, in fact, would represent a wound of exit. a careful examination of the margins of the large bone defect at that point, however, failed to disclose a portion of the skull bearing again a wound of--a point of impact on the skull of this fragment of the missile, remembering, of course, that this area was devoid of any scalp or skull at this present time. we did not have the bone. in further evaluating this head wound, i will refer back to the x-rays which we had previously prepared. these had disclosed to us multiple minute fragments of radio opaque material traversing a line from the wound in the occiput to just above the right eye, with a rather sizable fragment visible by x-ray just above the right eye. these tiny fragments that were seen dispersed through the substance of the brain in between were, in fact, just that extremely minute, less than mm. in size for the most part. (at this point, senator cooper entered the hearing room.) mr. specter. dr. humes, this would be a good juncture to produce two photographs. may it please the commission, mr. chief justice warren, i have identified as commission exhibits and which will at a later time be identified as being two frames from the motion picture camera operated by one abraham zapruder, being the amateur photographer who was on the scene, which i think would assist in evaluating the angle of the president's head corresponding to that exhibit designated as . i will hand those to you, dr. humes, and ask you if you would state for the record the relative position of the president's head in which is a frame about one-sixteenth of a second before the point of impact shown in exhibit . (the frames referred to were marked commission exhibits nos. and for identification.) commander humes. it will be noted in exhibit that the president's head is bent considerably forward and perhaps somewhat to the left in this frame of the photograph . mr. specter. is that in approximately the same position as the angle of the head depicted in commission exhibit no. ? commander humes. yes, sir; it is. mr. specter. mr. chief justice, at this time i would like to move for admission in evidence of exhibits through . the chairman. they may be admitted under those numbers. (commission exhibits nos. , , , , , and , previously marked for identification, were received in evidence.) mr. specter. will you proceed now, dr. humes, to continue in your description of the head wound? commander humes. head wound--a careful inspection of this large defect in the scalp and skull was made seeking for fragments of missile before any actual detection was begun. the brain was greatly lacerated and torn, and in this area of the large defect we did not encounter any of these minute particles. i might say at this time that the x-ray pictures which were made would have a tendency to magnify these minute fragments somewhat in size and we were not too surprised in not being able to find the tiny fragments depicted in the x-ray. mr. specter. approximately how many fragments were observed, dr. humes, on the x-ray? commander humes. i would have to refer to them again, but i would say between or tiny dust-like particle fragments of radio opaque material, with the exception of this one i previously mentioned which was seen to be above and very slightly behind the right orbit. mr. dulles. were these all fragments that were injected into the skull by the bullet? commander humes. our interpretation is, sir, that the missile struck the right occipital region, penetrated through the two tables of the skull, making the characteristic coning on the inner table which i have previously referred to. that one portion of the missile and judging by the size of the defect thus produced, the major portion of the missile, made its exit through this large defect. a second portion of the missile or multiple second portions were deflected, and traversed a distance as enumerated by this interrupted line, with the major portion of that fragment coming to lodge in the position indicated. perhaps some of these minor fragments were dislodged from the major one as it traversed this course. to better examine the situation with regard to the skull, at this time, dr. boswell and i extended the lacerations of the scalp which were at the margins of this wound, down in the direction of both of the president's ears. at that point, we had even a better appreciation of the extensive damage which had been done to the skull by this injury. we had to do virtually no work with a saw to remove these portions of the skull, they came apart in our hands very easily, and we attempted to further examine the brain, and seek specifically this fragment which was the one we felt to be of a size which would permit us to recover it. mr. specter. when you refer to this fragment, and you are pointing there, are you referring to the fragment depicted right above the president's right eye? commander humes. yes, sir; above and somewhat behind the president's eye. mr. specter. will you proceed, then, to tell us what you did then? commander humes. yes, sir. we dissected carefully in this region and in fact located this small fragment, which was in a defect in the brain tissue in just precisely this location. mr. specter. how large was that fragment, dr. humes? commander humes. i refer to my notes for the measurements of that fragment. i find in going back to my report, sir, that we found, in fact, two small fragments in this approximate location. the larger of these measured by mm., the smaller by mm. to make my presentation of this wound of the skull more logical to the commission, i would like to go forward in time that evening to at a later hour. i apologize--time and what happened exactly at what moment escapes me at this time. i mentioned previously that there was a large bony defect. some time later on that evening or very early the next morning while we were all still engaged in continuing our examination, i was presented with three portions of bone which had been brought to washington from dallas by the agents of the federal bureau of investigation. these were---- mr. specter. might that have been by a secret service agent? commander humes. it could be, sir; these things---- mr. specter. at any rate, someone presented these three pieces of bone to you? commander humes. someone presented these three pieces of bone to me, i do not recall specifically their statement as to where they had been recovered. it seems to me they felt it had been recovered either in the street or in the automobile, i don't recall specifically. we were most interested in these fragments of bone, and found that the three pieces could be roughly put together to account for a portion of this defect. mr. specter. how much remained unaccounted for, dr. humes? commander humes. i would estimate that approximately one-quarter of that defect was unaccounted for by adding these three fragments together and seeing what was left. this is somewhat difficult, because as back to when we were actually looking for the fragments of metal, as we moved the scalp about, fragments of various sizes would fall to the table, and so forth, so it was difficult to put that exact figure into words. however, the thing which we considered of importance about these three fragments of bone was that at the margins of one of them which was roughly pyramidal in shape, there was a portion of the circumference of what we interpreted as a missile wound. we thus interpreted it this because there was, the size was, sufficiently large for us, for it to have the curve of the skull still evident. at the point of this defect, and i will draw both tables of the bone in this defect, at the area which we interpreted as the margin of a missile wound, there was a shelving of the margin. this would, to us, mean that a missile had made this wound from within the skull to the exterior. to confirm that this was a missile wound, x-rays were made of that fragment of bone, which showed radio-opaque material consistent and similar in character to the particles seen within the skull to be deposited in the margins of this defect, in this portion of the bone. mr. specter. then what conclusion did you reach as to what caused that hole reconstructed from the three portions of the late president's scalp? commander humes. we reached the conclusion a missile entered the left--the right posterior inferior portion---- mr. specter. doctor, perhaps it would be helpful if you would refer to that as letter "a" and the exit as letter "b", so that the record is clear on those two points and perhaps it will be helpful to your description as well. and would you mark them as well, with a pencil? commander humes. that is not entry for the second. mr. specter. exit for the second? commander humes. i will label with the letter "a" to indicate our opinion as to the wound of entrance into the skull. i will label as point "b" the area of exit of a portion of the missile that entered posteriorly. i say a portion because a small fragment was seen in the position previously noted which was recovered. however, we concluded that a very significant portion, perhaps the largest portion, made its exit and accounted for this very large defect for the multiple fractures of the skull and for the loss of brain and scalp tissue at this point. mr. specter. will you describe at this juncture the damage which was inflicted upon the brain, please? commander humes. may i refer at this point to the gross description of the brain prepared separately? mr. specter. certainly, dr. humes, if you prefer to do it in that order. commander humes. i believe you have that. it is the second portion of the report. mr. specter. yes, sir. i can make that available to you here. commander humes. while that is being provided, when we reflected the scalp away from the badly damaged skull, and removed some of these loosened portions of skull bone, we were able to see this large defect in the right cerebral hemisphere. it corresponded roughly in size with the greatest diameter of the defect in the scalp measuring some cm. mr. specter. may the record now show i am handing to you, dr. humes, an exhibit marked commission exhibit , and will you identify what that is, please, doctor? commander humes. exhibit is listed as a supplementary report on the autopsy of the late president kennedy, and was prepared some days after the examination. this delay necessitated by, primarily, our desire to have the brain better fixed with formaldehyde before we proceeded further with the examination of the brain which is a standard means of approach to study of the brain. the brain in its fresh state does not lend itself well to examination. from my notes of the examination, at the time of the post-mortem examination, we noted that clearly visible in the large skull defect and exuding from it was lacerated brain tissue which, on close inspection proved to represent the major portion of the right cerebral hemisphere. we also noted at this point that the flocculus cerebri was extensively lacerated and that the superior sagittal sinus which is a venous blood containing channel in the top of the meninges was also lacerated. to continue to answer your question with regard to the damage of the brain, following the formal infixation, dr. boswell, dr. finck and i convened to examine the brain in this state. we also prepared photographs of the brain from several aspects to depict the extent of these injuries. we found that the right cerebral hemisphere was markedly disrupted. there was a longitudinal laceration of the right hemisphere which was parasagittal in position. by the saggital plane, as you may know, is a plane in the midline which would divide the brain into right and left halves. this laceration was parasagittal. it was situated approximately . cm. to the right of the midline, and extended from the tip of occipital lobe, which is the posterior portion of the brain, to the tip of the frontal lobe which is the most anterior portion of the brain, and it extended from the top down to the substance of the brain a distance of approximately or cm. the base of the laceration was situated approximately . cm. below the vertex in the white matter. by the vertex we mean--the highest point on the skull is referred to as the vertex. the area in which the greatest loss of brain substance was particularly in the parietal lobe, which is the major portion of the right cerebral hemisphere. the margins of this laceration at all points were jagged and irregular, with additional lacerations extending in varying directions and for varying distances from the main laceration. in addition, there was a laceration of the corpus callosum which is a body of fibers which connects the two hemispheres of the brain to each other, which extended from the posterior to the anterior portion of this structure, that is the corpus callosum. exposed in this laceration were portions of the ventricular system in which the spinal fluid normally is disposed within the brain. when viewed from above the left cerebral hemisphere was intact. there was engorgement of blood vessels in the meninges covering the brain. we note that the gyri and sulci, which are the convolutions of the brain over the left hemisphere were of normal size and distribution. those on the right were too fragmented and distorted for satisfactory description. when the brain was turned over and viewed from its basular or inferior aspect, there was found a longitudinal laceration of the mid-brain through the floor of the third ventricle, just behind the optic chiasma and the mammillary bodies. this laceration partially communicates with an oblique . cm. tear through the left cerebral peduncle. this is a portion of the brain which connects the higher centers of the brain with the spinal cord which is more concerned with reflex actions. there were irregular superficial lacerations over the basular or inferior aspects of the left temporal and frontal lobes. we interpret that these later contusions were brought about when the disruptive force of the injury pushed that portion of the brain against the relative intact skull. this has been described as contre-coup injury in that location. this, then, i believe, mr. specter, are the major points with regard to the president's head wound. mr. specter. do you have an opinion, dr. humes, as to whether there were dumdum bullets used specifically on this wound which struck point "a" of the head, on ? commander humes. i believe these were not dumdum bullets, mr. specter. a dumdum bullet is a term that has been used to describe various missiles which have a common characteristic of fragmenting extensively upon striking. mr. specter. would you characterize the resultant effect on this bullet as not extensive fragmenting? commander humes. yes. had this wound on point "a" on exhibit been inflicted by a dumdum bullet, i would anticipate that it would not have anything near the regular contour and outline which it had. i also would anticipate that the skull would have been much more extensively disrupted, and not have, as was evident in this case, a defect which quite closely corresponded to the overlying skin defect because that type of a missile would fragment on contact and be much more disruptive at this point. mr. specter. at this point would you state for the record the size and approximate dimension of the major wound on the top of the head which you have marked wound "b"? commander humes. this was so large, that localization of it in a descriptive way is somewhat difficult. however, we have mentioned that its major--its greatest dimension was approximately cm. the reason it was difficult to measure is that various fracture lines extend out from it in a quite irregular fashion, but it was approximately cm. mr. mccloy. this red that is marked on on the base of the skull, is that seepage or what? commander humes. no, sir; that is to depict the musculature at the base of the neck. mr. mccloy. i see. commander humes. that is not taken to depict the blood, sir. mr. specter. on the reconstruction of the three portions of the scalp which you described---- commander humes. skull, sir. mr. specter. skull, which enabled you to reconstruct a point of exit of the bullet, will you state at this point of the record that size of opening or exit path of the bullet? commander humes. as i mentioned previously, at one angle of this largest pyramidal shaped fragments of bone which came as a separate specimen, we had the portion of the perimeter of a roughly what we would judge to have been a roughly circular wound of exit. judging from that portion of the perimeter which was available to us, we would have judged the diameter of that wound to be between . and cm. mr. specter. doctor humes, have you now described the major characteristics and features of the wounds to the late president's head? commander humes. i believe that i have, sir. mr. specter. all right. will you now turn your attention, please to the wound which is noted on and being at the---- mr. mccloy. before we leave that, could i ask a question? when you talk about dumdum bullets, do you include the ordinary type of soft nose sporting bullets, maybe this is something that colonel finck would be more expert on, but was that, was the bullet, could it possibly have been a sporting type of hunting bullet that has a soft nose but is still somewhat firm? commander humes. from the characteristics of this wound, mr. mccloy, i would believe that it must have had a very firm head rather than a soft head. mr. mccloy. steel jacketed, would you say, copper jacketed bullet? commander humes. i believe more likely a jacketed bullet because of the regular outline which was present. mr. mccloy. all right. mr. dulles. could i ask a question? the chairman. mr. dulles. mr. dulles. believing that we know the type of bullet that was usable in this gun, would this be the type of wound that might result from that kind of a bullet? commander humes. i believe so, sir. mr. dulles. if my question is clear---- commander humes. yes, sir; it is. mr. dulles. we think we know what the bullet is, we may be wrong but we think we know what it was, is this wound consistent with that type of bullet? commander humes. quite consistent, sir. mr. mccloy. there is no evidence of any keyholing of the bullet before it hit, before the point of impact? commander humes. i don't exactly follow your question. mr. mccloy. was the bullet moving in a direct line or had it begun to tumble? commander humes. to tumble? that is a difficult question to answer. i have the opinion, however, that it was more likely moving in a direct line. you will note that the wound in the posterior portion of the occiput on exhibit is somewhat longer than the other missile wound which we have not yet discussed in the low neck. we believe that rather than due to a tumbling effect, this is explainable on the fact that this missile struck the skin and skull at a more tangential angle than did the other missile, and, therefore, produced a more elongated defect, sir. senator cooper. may i ask a question there? perhaps you have done this, but if not, how would you explain the difference of the courses of the fragments which you traced and described as, i think, being discovered behind the right eye? commander humes. yes, sir. senator cooper. and the course of the fragment which was believed caused the large defect? commander humes. caused the large defect? senator cooper. how do you explain---- commander humes. the discrepancy? senator cooper. the difference in the courses. commander humes. yes, sir. as this missile penetrated the scalp, it then came upon a very firm substance, the hard skull, and i believe that this track depicted by the dotted lines on exhibit was a portion of that missile which was dislodged as it made its defect in the skull. and that--that another portion, and, as i say, presumably, by the size of the defect, a more major portion made its exit through the right lateral side of the skull. mr. mccloy. is this piece of pyramidal bone that was brought in to you subsequently as i understand it---- commander humes. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. was that part of the outer table or the inner table? commander humes. it was both tables, sir. mr. mccloy. both tables? commander humes. yes, sir; had it only been one it might have been difficult to ascertain whether it was. mr. mccloy. shelving or not? commander humes. yes, sir; in or out, but it encompassed both tables, sir. mr. dulles. is the angle of declination that you--one sees there from in and out approximately the angle you think at which the bullet was traveling at the time of impact and exit? commander humes. that is our impression, sir. mr. dulles. so then the shot would have been fired from some point above the head of the person hit? commander humes. yes, sir. mr. specter. dr. humes, would you elaborate a bit on the differences in the paths, specifically why the bullet went in one direction in part and in part in the second direction, terminating with the fragment right over the right eye? commander humes. yes, sir. i will make a drawing of the posterior portion of the skull showing again this beveling which we observed at the inner table of the skull. our impression is that as this projectile impinged upon the skull in this fashion, a small portion of it was dislodged due to the energy expended in that collision, if you will, and that it went off at an angle, and left the track which is labeled , which is labeled on exhibit from "a", point "a" to the point where the fragment was found behind the eye. why a fragment takes any particular direction like that is something which is difficult of scientific explanation. those of us who have seen missiles strike bones, be it the skull or a bone in the extremity, have long since learned that portions of these missiles may go off in various directions and the precise physical laws governing them are not clearly understood. mr. specter. would the angle be accentuated in any way if you were to assume the president was in a moving automobile going in a slight downhill direction? commander humes. there are many variables under these circumstances. the most--the crucial point, i believe, to be the relative position of the president's head in relation to the flight of the missile. now, this would be influenced by how far his head was bent, by the situation with regard to the level of the seat in the vehicle, off of the horizontal, and so forth. mr. specter. how about a decline in the path of the road itself? commander humes. i think that that would have a tendency to accentuate this angle, yes, sir. mr. specter. mr. chief justice, i would like to move for the admission in evidence now of exhibit , which is the exhibit on the brain report. the chairman. it may be admitted. (the document heretofore marked for identification as commission exhibit no. was received in evidence.) mr. specter. dr. humes, would you now move over to the wound which appears on the lower part of the neck and upper part of the back? mr. dulles. could i ask one more question before we get to that, i am sorry. mr. specter. certainly. mr. dulles. could one say as to what portion of the bullet was found in all these fragments, i mean arrive at an estimate, was it a tenth of the bullet, was it, how much was it, assuming the type of bullet that we believe was used in this particular rifle. commander humes. sir, i have not had the opportunity to personally examine the type of bullet which is believed to have been represented by this injury. however, i would estimate--if i understand you correctly the total amount that was present in the president's skull and brain? mr. dulles. yes. commander humes. including the fragment? mr. dulles. including all the fragments. commander humes. including all these minute particles. i would say there was something less than one-tenth of the total volume of the missile. mr. specter. dr. humes, do you make that calculation on the assumption that the bullets used here were . mm. mannlicher-carcano rifle bullet weighing . grams? commander humes. yes, i do; sir. mr. specter. had i brought that particular fact to your attention prior to the time you started testifying here today? commander humes. yes, sir. one point i intended to make clear these fragments which i recovered from this position were turned over to the secret service. i presume that they have made physical measurements including the weight of them, and could give a much more intelligent estimate of the proportion than i. i would say, however, that we did not deliver these minute fragments because they were so small as to be essentially unrecoverable. so, obviously they were of a very small portion of the major missile. mr. dulles. these minute fragments were part of the bullet, emanations from the bullet? commander humes. yes, sir. mr. dulles. they were not from the head? commander humes. no, sir, they were small, dust, of the size of dust particles, however. mr. dulles. is the posture of the head of that figure there, the inclination of it, roughly the inclination that you think the president's head had at the time from the other photographs? commander humes. yes, sir. from the photographs and based on the physical examination of this wound, yes, sir. mr. dulles. that is all i have. mr. mccloy. perhaps this was something that colonel finck could testify to exactly, but, he would be quite competent. is there anything to indicate that this was, might have been a larger than a . or smaller than a . ? commander humes. the size of the defect in the scalp, caused by a projectile could vary from missile to missile because of elastic recoil and so forth of the tissues. however, the size of the defect in the underlying bone is certainly not likely to get smaller than that of the missile which perforated it, and in this case, the smallest diameter of this was approximately to mm., so i would feel that that would be the absolute upper limit of the size of this missile, sir. mr. mccloy. seven would be the absolute upper limit? commander humes. yes, sir; and, of course, just a little tilt could make it a little larger, you see. mr. dulles. i have one other question, if i may. is the incidence of clean entry as indicated there, and then great fragmentation on exit, is that a normal consequence of this type of wound? commander humes. sir, we feel that there are two potential explanations for this. one, having traversed the skull in entrance in the occiput as depicted on , the missile begins to tumble, and in that fashion it presents a greater proportion of its surface to the brain substance and to the skull as it makes its egress. the other and somewhat more difficult to measure and perhaps colonel finck will be able to testify in greater detail on this, is that a high velocity missile has tremendous kinetic energy, and this energy is expanded against the structures which it strikes, and so that much of this defect could be of the nature of blast, as this kinetic energy is dissipated by traversing the skull. is that the sense of the question, sir? mr. dulles. yes. senator cooper. i will ask a question, and perhaps this isn't in your field. but assuming that the shot which struck president kennedy at point a was fired by a gun from the window of the texas school book depository, and which has been testified to, and assuming that you could locate the position of the president at the time he was struck by a bullet, you could then, could you not, establish the degree of the missile? commander humes. the degree of angle? senator cooper. the angle, yes, the degree of angle of the missile from the building. commander humes. yes, sir; there is one difficulty, and that is the defect of exit was so broad that one has to rely more on the inclination of the entrance than they do connecting in this instance entrance and exit because so much of the skull was carried away in this fashion. senator cooper. that was my second question. my first question was would it be possible physically to establish the degree of angle of the trajectory of the bullet? commander humes. within limited accuracy, sir. senator cooper. within limited accuracy. that being true then my second question was whether the point of entry of the bullet, point a, and the, what you call the exit---- commander humes. exit. senator cooper. did you establish them so exactly that they could be related to the degree of angle of the trajectory of the bullet? commander humes. yes, sir; to our satisfaction we did ascertain that fact. mr. dulles. just one other question. am i correct in assuming from what you have said that this wound is entirely inconsistent with a wound that might have been administered if the shot were fired from in front or the side of the president: it had to be fired from behind the president? commander humes. scientifically, sir, it is impossible for it to have been fired from other than behind. or to have exited from other than behind. mr. mccloy. this is so obvious that i rather hesitate to ask it. there is no question in your mind that it was a lethal bullet? commander humes. the president, sir, could not possibly have survived the effect of that injury no matter what would have been done for him. the chairman. mr. specter. mr. specter. what conclusions did you reach then as to the trajectory or point of origin of the bullet, dr. humes, based on ? commander humes. we reached the conclusion that this missile was fired toward the president from a point above and behind him, sir. mr. specter. now, on one detail on your report, dr. humes, on page , on the third line down, you note that there is a lacerated wound measuring by mm. which on the smaller size is, of course, less than . mm.? commander humes. yes, sir. mr. specter. what would be the explanation for that variation? commander humes. this is in the scalp, sir, and i believe that this is explainable on the elastic recoil of the tissues of the skin, sir. it is not infrequent in missile wounds of this type that the measured wound is slightly smaller than the caliber of the missile that traversed it. mr. specter. would you proceed, now then to the other major wound of entry which you have already noted and described? commander humes. yes, sir. mr. specter. its point of origin, where it hit the president. commander humes. i--our previously submitted report, which is commission no. , identified a wound in the low posterior neck of the president. the size of this wound was by mm., with the long axis being in accordance with the long axis of the body, mm. wide, in other words, mm. long. we attempted to locate such wounds in soft tissue by making reference to bony structures which do not move and are, therefore, good reference points for this type of investigation. we then ascertained, we chose the two bony points of reference--we chose to locate this wound, where the mastoid process, which is just behind the ear, the top of the mastoid process, and the acromion which is the tip of the shoulder joint. we ascertained physical measurement at the time of autopsy that this wound was cm. from the tip of the mastoid process and cm. from the acromion was its central point-- mr. specter. that is the right acromion? commander humes. the tip of the right acromion, yes, sir, and that is why we have depicted it in figure in this location. this wound appeared physically quite similar to the wound which we have described before in "a," with the exception that its long axis was shorter than the long axis of the wound described above. when the tissues beneath this wound were inspected, there was a defect corresponding with the skin defect in the fascia overlying the musculature of the low neck and upper back. i mentioned previously that x-rays were made of the entire body of the late president. of course, and here i must say that as i describe something to you, i might have done it before or after in the description but for the sake of understanding, we examined carefully the bony structures in this vicinity as well as the x-rays, to see if there was any evidence of fracture or of deposition of metallic fragments in the depths of this wound, and we saw no such evidence, that is no fracture of the bones of the shoulder girdle, or of the vertical column, and no metallic fragments were detectable by x-ray examination. attempts to probe in the vicinity of this wound were unsuccessful without fear of making a false passage. mr. specter. what do you mean by that, doctor? commander humes. well, the defect in the fascia was quite similar, which is the first firm tissue over the muscle beneath the skin, was quite similar to this. we were unable, however, to take probes and have them satisfactorily fall through any definite path at this point. now, to explain the situation in the president's neck, i think it will be necessary for me to refer back to exhibit , i believe the number is correct. mr. specter. yes; please do, that is . commander humes. now, as the president's body was viewed from anteriorly in the autopsy room, and saying nothing for the moment about the missile, there was a recent surgical defect in the low anterior neck, which measured some or cm. in length or let's say a recent wound was present in this area. this wound was through the skin, through the subcutaneous tissues and into the larynx. or rather into the trachea of the president. mr. specter. to digress chronologically---- commander humes. yes. mr. specter. did you have occasion to discuss that wound on the front side of the president with dr. malcolm perry of parkland hospital in dallas? commander humes. yes, sir; i did. i had the impression from seeing the wound that it represented a surgical tracheotomy wound, a wound frequently made by surgeons when people are in respiratory distress to give them a free airway. to ascertain that point, i called on the telephone dr. malcolm perry and discussed with him the situation of the president's neck when he first examined the president, and asked him had he in fact done a tracheotomy which was somewhat redundant because i was somewhat certain he had. he said, yes; he had done a tracheotomy and that as the point to perform his tracheotomy he used a wound which he had interpreted as a missile wound in the low neck, as the point through which to make the tracheotomy incision. mr. specter. when did you have that conversation with him, dr. humes? commander humes. i had that conversation early on saturday morning, sir. mr. specter. on saturday morning, november d? commander humes. that is correct, sir. mr. specter. and have you had occasion since to examine the report of parkland hospital which i made available to you? commander humes. yes, sir; i have. mr. specter. may it please the commission, i would like to note this as commission exhibit no. , and subject to later technical proof, to have it admitted into evidence at this time for the purpose of having the doctor comment about it. the chairman. it may be so marked. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , for identification.) mr. specter. what did your examination of the parkland hospital records disclose with respect to this wound on the front side of the president's body? commander humes. the examination of this record from parkland hospital revealed that doctor perry had observed this wound as had other physicians in attendance upon the president, and actually before a tracheotomy was performed surgically, an endotracheal tube was placed through the president's mouth and down his larynx and into his trachea which is the first step in giving satisfactory airway to a person injured in such fashion and unconscious. the president was unconscious and it is most difficult to pass such a tube when the person is unconscious. the person who performed that procedure, that is instilled the endotracheal tube noted that there was a wound of the trachea below the larynx, which corresponded in essence with the wound of the skin which they had observed from the exterior. mr. specter. how is that wound described, while you are mentioning the wound? commander humes. yes, sir. mr. specter. i think you will find that on the first page of the summary sheet, dr. humes. commander humes. yes, sir. thank you. this report was written by doctor--or of the activities of dr. james carrico, doctor carrico in inserting the endotracheal tube noted a ragged wound of trachea immediately below the larynx. the report, as i recall it, and i have not studied it in minute detail, would indicate to me that doctor perry realizing from doctor carrico's observation that there was a wound of the trachea would quite logically use the wound which he had observed as a point to enter the trachea since the trachea was almost damaged, that would be a logical place in which to put his incision. in speaking of that wound in the neck, doctor perry told me that before he enlarged it to make the tracheotomy wound it was a "few millimeters in diameter." of course by the time we saw it, as my associates and as you have heard, it was considerably larger and no longer at all obvious as a missile wound. the report states, and doctor perry told me in telephone conversation that there was bubbling of air and blood in the vicinity of this wound when he made the tracheotomy. this caused him to believe that perhaps there had been a violation of one of the--one or other of the pleural cavities by a missile. he, therefore, asked one of his associates, and the record is to me somewhat confused as to which of his associates, he asked one of his associates to put in a chest tube. this is a maneuver which is, was quite logical under the circumstances, and which would, if a tube that were placed through all layers of the wall of the chest, and the chest cavity had been violated one could remove air that had gotten in there and greatly assist respiration. so when we examined the president in addition to the large wound which we found in conversation with doctor perry was the tracheotomy wound, there were two smaller wounds on the upper anterior chest. mr. dulles. these are apparently exit wounds? commander humes. sir, these were knife wounds, these were incised wounds on either side of the chest, and i will give them in somewhat greater detail. these wounds were bilateral, they were situated on the anterior chest wall in the nipple line, and each were cm. long in the transverse axis. the one on the right was situated cm. above the nipple--the one on the left was situated cm. on the nipple, and the one on the right was cm. above the nipple. their intention was to incise through the president's chest to place tubes into his chest. we examined those wounds very carefully, and found that they, however, did not enter the chest cavity. they only went through the skin. i presume that as they were performing that procedure it was obvious that the president had died, and they didn't pursue this. to complete the examination of the area of the neck and the chest, i will do that together, we made the customary incision which we use in a routine postmortem examination which is a y-shaped incision from the shoulders over the lower portion of the breastbone and over to the opposite shoulder and reflected the skin and tissues from the anterior portion of the chest. we examined in the region of this incised surgical wound which was the tracheotomy wound and we saw that there was some bruising of the muscles of the neck in the depths of this wound as well as laceration or defect in the trachea. at this point, of course, i am unable to say how much of the defect in the trachea was made by the knife of the surgeon, and how much of the defect was made by the missile wound. that would have to be ascertained from the surgeon who actually did the tracheotomy. there was, however, some ecchymosis or contusion, of the muscles of the right anterior neck inferiorly, without, however, any disruption of the muscles or any significant tearing of the muscles. the muscles in this area of the body run roughly, as you see as he depicted them here. we have removed some of them for a point i will make in a moment, but it is our opinion that the missile traversed the neck and slid between these muscles and other vital structures with a course in the neck such as the carotid artery, the jugular vein and other structures because there was no massive hemorrhage or other massive injury in this portion of the neck. in attempting to relate findings within the president's body to this wound which we had observed low in his neck, we then opened his chest cavity, and we very carefully examined the lining of his chest cavity and both of his lungs. we found that there was, in fact, no defect in the pleural lining of the president's chest. it was completely intact. however, over the apex of the right pleural cavity, and the pleura now has two layers. it has a parietal or a layer which lines the chest cavity and it has a visceral layer which is intimately in association with the lung. as depicted in figure , in the apex of the right pleural cavity there was a bruise or contusion or ecchmymosis of the parietal pleura as well as a bruise of the upper portion, the most apical portion of the right lung. it, therefore, was our opinion that the missile while not penetrating physically the pleural cavity, as it passed that point bruised either the missile itself, or the force of its passage through the tissues, bruised both the parietal and the visceral pleura. the area of discoloration on the apical portion of the right upper lung measured five centimeters in greatest diameter, and was wedge shaped in configuration, with its base toward the top of the chest and its apex down towards the substance of the lung. once again kodachrome photographs were made of this area in the interior of the president's chest. mr. specter. would you mark the point on exhibit , the one on the rear of the president as point "c" and the one on the front of the president as point "d" so we can discuss those, dr. humes? now, what conclusion did you reach, if any, as to whether point "c" was the point of entry or exit? commander humes. we reached the conclusion that point "c" was a point of entry. mr. specter. what characteristics of that wound led you to that conclusion? commander humes. the characteristics here were basically similar to the characteristics above, lacking one very valuable clue or piece of evidence rather than clue, because it is more truly a piece of evidence in the skull. the skull as i mentioned before had the bone with the characteristic defect made as a missile traverses bone. this missile, to the best of our ability to ascertain, struck no bone protuberances, no bony prominences, no bones as it traversed the president's body. but it was a sharply delineated wound. it was quite regular in its outline. it measured, as i mentioned, by mm. its margins were similar in all respects when viewed with the naked eye to the wound in the skull, which we feel incontrovertibly was a wound of entrance. the defect in the fascia which is that layer of connective tissue over the muscle just beneath the wound corresponded virtually exactly to the defect in the skin. and for these reasons we felt that this was a wound of entrance. mr. specter. did you search the body to determine if there was any bullet inside the body? commander humes. before the arrival of colonel finck we had made x-rays of the head, neck and torso of the president, and the upper portions of his major extremities, or both his upper and lower extremities. at colonel finck's suggestion, we then completed the x-ray examination by x-raying the president's body in toto, and those x-rays are available. mr. specter. what did those x-rays disclose with respect to the possible presence of a missile in the president's body? commander humes. they showed no evidence of a missile in the president's body at any point. and these were examined by ourselves and by the radiologist, who assisted us in this endeavor. mr. specter. what conclusion, if any, did you reach as to whether point "d" on was the point of entrance or exit? commander humes. we concluded that this missile depicted in "c" which entered the president's body traversed the president's body and made its exit through the wound observed by the physicians at parkland hospital and later extended as a tracheotomy wound. mr. specter. does the description "ragged wound" which is found in the parkland report shed any light in and of itself as to whether point "d" is an exit or entry wound? commander humes. i believe, sir, that that statement goes on, ragged wound in the trachea. i don't believe that refers to the skin. and you might say that it is a ragged wound is more likely to be a wound of exit. however, the trachea has little cartilaginous rings which have a tendency, which would be disrupted by this, and most wounds of the trachea unless very cleverly incised would perhaps appear slightly ragged. mr. specter. now, what was the angle, if any, that you observed on the path of the bullet, as you outlined it? commander humes. the angle which we observed in measuring, in comparing the point of entrance, our point of entrance labeled "c" on and "d" point of exit is one that the point of exit is below the point of entrance compared with the vertical. mr. specter. have you had an opportunity to examine the clothing which has been identified for you as being that worn by the president on the day of the assassination? commander humes. yes; yesterday, just shortly before the commission hearing today was begun, mr. chief justice, we had opportunity for the first time to examine the clothing worn by the late president. in private conversation among ourselves before this opportunity, we predicted we would find defects in the clothing corresponding with the defects which were found, of course, on the body of the late president. mr. specter. mr. chief justice, may it please the commission, i would like to have identified for the record three articles on which i have placed commission exhibits nos. being the coat worn by the president, being the shirt, and being the president's tie, and at this time move for their admission into evidence. the chairman. it may be admitted. (the articles of clothing referred to were marked commission exhibits nos. , and for identification, and received in evidence.) mr. specter. taking at the start, doctor humes, will you describe for the record what hole, if any, is observable in the back of that garment which would be at or about the spot you have described as being the point of entry on the president's back or lower neck. commander humes. yes, sir. this exhibit is a grey suit coat stated to have been worn by the president on the day of his death. situated to the right of the midline high in the back portion of the coat is a defect, one margin of which is semicircular. situated above it just below the collar is an additional defect. it is our opinion that the lower of these defects corresponds essentially with the point of entrance of the missile at point c on exhibit . mr. specter. would it be accurate to state that the hole which you have identified as being the point of entry is approximately inches below the top of the collar, and inches to the right of the middle seam of the coat? commander humes. that is approximately correct, sir. this defect, i might say, continues on through the material. attached to this garment is the memorandum which states that one half of the area around the hole which was presented had been removed by experts, i believe, at the federal bureau of investigation, and also that a control area was taken from under the collar, so it is my interpretation that this defect at the top of this garment is the control area taken by the bureau, and that the reason the lower defect is not more circle or oval in outline is because a portion of that defect has been removed apparently for physical examinations. mr. specter. now, does the one which you have described as the entry of the bullet go all the way through? commander humes. yes, sir; it goes through both layers. mr. specter. how about the upper one of the collar you have described, does that go all the way through? commander humes. yes, sir; it goes all the way through. it is not--wait a minute, excuse me--it is not so clearly a puncture wound as the one below. mr. specter. does the upper one go all the way through in the same course? commander humes. no. mr. specter. through the inner side as it went through the outer side? commander humes. no, in an irregular fashion. mr. specter. will you take commission exhibit and describe what that is, first of all, please? commander humes. this is the shirt, blood-stained shirt, purportedly worn by the president on the day of his assassination. when viewed from behind at a point which corresponds essentially with the point of defect on the jacket, one sees an irregularly oval defect. when viewed anteriorly, with the top button buttoned, two additional defects are seen. of course, with the shirt buttoned, the fly front of the shirt causes two layers of cloth to be present in this location, and that there is a defect in the inner layer of cloth and a corresponding defect in the outer layer of the cloth. mr. specter. is there any observable indication from the fibers on the front side of the shirt to indicate in which direction a missile might have passed through those two tears? commander humes. from an examination of these defects at this point, it would appear that the missile traversed these two layers from within to the exterior. mr. specter. would it be accurate to state that the hole in the back of the shirt is approximately inches below the top of the collar and inches to the right of the middle seam of the shirt? commander humes. that is approximately correct, sir. mr. specter. now, how, if at all, do the holes in the shirt and coat conform to the wound of entrance which you described as point "c" on commission exhibit ? commander humes. we believe that they conform quite well. when viewing--first of all, the wounds or the defects in and coincide virtually exactly with one another. they give the appearance when viewed separately and not as part of the clothing of a clothed person as being perhaps, somewhat lower on the exhibits and than we have depicted them in exhibit no. . we believe there are two reasons for this. is a schematic representation, and the photographs would be more accurate as to the precise location, but more particularly the way in which these defects would conform with such a defect on the torso would depend on the girth of the shoulders and configuration of the base of the neck of the individual, and the relative position of the shirt and coat to the tissues of the body at the time of the impact of the missile. mr. specter. as to the muscular status of the president, what was it? commander humes. the president was extremely well-developed, an extremely well-developed, muscular young man with a very well-developed set of muscles in his thoraco and shoulder girdle. mr. specter. what effect would that have on the positioning of the shirt and coat with respect to the position of the neck in and about the seam? commander humes. i believe this would have a tendency to push the portions of the coat which show the defects here somewhat higher on the back of the president than on a man of less muscular development. mr. specter. mr. chief justice, may it please the commission, i would like to mark for identification exhibit , which later proof will show is a picture of president kennedy shortly before the first bullet struck him, and ask the doctor to take a look at that. will you describe, doctor humes, the position of president kennedy's right hand in that picture? commander humes. yes. this exhibit, commission exhibit no. , allegedly taken just prior to the wounding of the late president, shows him with his hand raised, his elbow bent, apparently in saluting the crowd. i believe that this action---- mr. specter. which hand was that? commander humes. this was his right hand, sir. i believe that this action would further accentuate the elevation of the coat and the shirt with respect to the back of the president. mr. specter. now. doctor humes, will you take commission exhibit no. ---- mr. mccloy. before you go, may i ask a question? in your examination of the shirt, i just want to get it in the record, from your examination of the shirt, there is no defect in the collar of the shirt which coincides with the defect in the back of the president's coat, am i correct? commander humes. you are correct, sir. there is no such defect. mr. specter. as to commission exhibit , dr. humes, will you identify what that is, please? commander humes. we had an opportunity to examine this exhibit before the commission met today, sir. this is commission exhibit no. , and is the neck tie purportedly worn, purportedly to have been worn, by the late president on the day of his assassination. mr. specter. what defect, if any, is noted on the tie which would correspond with the path of a missile apparently passing through the folds of the shirt which you have already described? commander humes. this tie is one of those--this tie is still in its knotted state, as we examine it at this time. the portion of the tie around the neck has been severed apparently with scissors or other sharp instrument accounting for the loop about the neck. the tie is tied in four-in-hand fashion but somewhat askew from the way a person would normally tie a four-in-hand knot. situated on the left anterior aspect of this knotted portion of the tie at a point approximately corresponding with the defects noted previously in the two layers of the shirt is a superficial tear of the outer layer only of the fabric of this tie which, i believe, could have been caused by a glancing blow to this portion of the tie by a missile. mr. specter. mr. chief justice, i move at this time for the admission into evidence of exhibits through exhibit , the three articles of clothing and the photograph which we have just used. the chairman. they may be admitted. (exhibits nos. through were received in evidence and may be found in the commission files.) mr. mccloy. commander, did you say left or right? commander humes. no, sir. in fact, the way this bow is tied now it would appear to be on the left of this tie, but it is kind of twisted out of shape. mr. mccloy. yes. it is twisted. it is not too clear. commander humes. it is not too clear, it is not clear how that might have been in position with the shirt, sir. mr. specter. now, doctor humes, at one point in your examination of the president, did you make an effort to probe the point of entry with your finger? commander humes. yes, sir; i did. mr. specter. and at or about that time when you were trying to ascertain, as you previously testified, whether there was any missile in the body of the president, did someone from the secret service call your attention to the fact that a bullet had been found on a stretcher at parkland hospital? commander humes. yes, sir; they did. mr. specter. and in that posture of your examination, having just learned of the presence of a bullet on a stretcher, did that call to your mind any tentative explanatory theory of the point of entry or exit of the bullet which you have described as entering at point "c" on exhibit ? commander humes. yes, sir. we were able to ascertain with absolute certainty that the bullet had passed by the apical portion of the right lung producing the injury which we mentioned. i did not at that point have the information from doctor perry about the wound in the anterior neck, and while that was a possible explanation for the point of exit, we also had to consider the possibility that the missile in some rather inexplicable fashion had been stopped in its path through the president's body and, in fact, then had fallen from the body onto the stretcher. mr. specter. and what theory did you think possible, at that juncture, to explain the passing of the bullet back out the point of entry; or had you been provided with the fact that external heart massage had been performed on the president? commander humes. yes, sir; we had, and we considered the possibility that some of the physical maneuvering performed by the doctors might have in some way caused this event to take place. mr. specter. now, have you since discounted that possibility, doctor humes? commander humes. yes; in essence we have. when examining the wounds in the base of the president's neck anteriorly, the region of the tracheotomy performed at parkland hospital, we noted, and we noted in our record, some contusion and bruising of the muscles of the neck of the president. we noted that at the time of the postmortem examination. now, we also made note of the types of wounds which i mentioned to you before in this testimony on the chest which were going to be used by the doctors there to place chest tubes. they also made other wounds, one on the left arm, and a wound on the ankle of the president with the idea of administering intravenous blood and other fluids in hope of replacing the blood which the president had lost from his extensive wounds. those wounds showed no evidence of bruising or contusion or physical violence, which made us reach the conclusion that they were performed during the agonal moments of the late president, and when the circulation was, in essence, very seriously embarrassed, if not nonfunctional. so that these wounds, the wound of the chest and the wound of the arm and of the ankle were performed about the same time as the tracheotomy wound because only a very few moments of time elapsed when all this was going on. so, therefore, we reached the conclusion that the damage to these muscles on the anterior neck just below this wound were received at approximately the same time that the wound here on the top of the pleural cavity was, while the president still lived and while his heart and lungs were operating in such a fashion to permit him to have a bruise in the vicinity, because that he did have in these strap muscles in the neck, but he didn't have in the areas of the other incisions that were made at parkland hospital. so we feel that, had this missile not made its path in that fashion, the wound made by doctor perry in the neck would not have been able to produce, wouldn't have been able to produce, these contusions of the musculature of the neck. mr. dulles. could i ask a question about the missile, i am a little bit--the bullet, i am a little bit--confused. it was found on the stretcher. did the president's body remain on the stretcher while it was in the hospital? commander humes. of that point i have no knowledge. the only---- mr. dulles. why would it--would this operating have anything to do with the bullet being on the stretcher unless the president's body remained on the stretcher after he was taken into the hospital; is that possible? commander humes. it is quite possible, sir. mr. dulles. otherwise it seems to me the bullet would have to have been ejected from the body before he was taken or put on the bed in the hospital. commander humes. right, sir. i, of course, was not there. i don't know how he was handled in the hospital, in what conveyance. i do know he was on his back during the period of his stay in the hospital; doctor perry told me that. mr. dulles. yes; and wasn't turned over. commander humes. that is right. mr. dulles. so he might have been on the stretcher the whole time, is that your view? the chairman. he said he had no view. he wasn't there, he doesn't know anything about it. mr. dulles. yes. i wonder if there is other evidence of this. mr. specter. there has been other evidence, mr. dulles. if i may say at this point, we shall produce later, subject to sequential proof, evidence that the stretcher on which this bullet was found was the stretcher of governor connally. we have a sequence of events on the transmission of that stretcher which ties that down reasonably closely, so that on the night of the autopsy itself, as the information i have been developing indicates, the thought preliminarily was that was from president kennedy's stretcher, and that is what led to the hypothesis which we have been exploring about, but which has since been rejected. but at any rate the evidence will show that it was from governor connally's stretcher that the bullet was found. mr. dulles. so this bullet is still missing? mr. specter. that is the subject of some theories i am about to get into. that is an elusive subject, but dr. humes has some views on it, and we might just as well go into those now. mr. mccloy. before he gets into that, may i ask a question? the chairman. surely, go right ahead. mr. mccloy. quite apart from the president's clothing, now directing your attention to the flight of the bullet, quite apart from the evidence given by the president's clothing, you, i believe, indicated that the flight of the bullet was from the back, from above and behind. it took roughly the line which is shown on your exhibit . commander humes. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. i am not clear what induced you to come to that conclusion if you couldn't find the actual exit wound by reason of the tracheotomy. commander humes. the report which we have submitted, sir, represents our thinking within the - hours of the death of the president, all facts taken into account of the situation. the wound in the anterior portion of the lower neck is physically lower than the point of entrance posteriorly, sir. mr. mccloy. that is what i wanted to bring out. commander humes. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. may i ask this: in spite of the incision made by the tracheotomy, was there any evidence left of the exit aperture? commander humes. unfortunately not that we could ascertain, sir. mr. mccloy. i see. mr. dulles. there is no evidence in the coat or the shirt of an exit through the coat or shirt. commander humes. there is no exit through the coat, sir. but these two, in the shirt, of course--excuse me, sir--there is. the entrance by our calculations---- mr. dulles. the entrance i know. commander humes. posteriorly. mr. dulles. what about the exit? commander humes. the exit wounds are just below. mr. dulles. but there was no coat to exit through. commander humes. no; anteriorly the coat was quite open. senator cooper. may i ask a question? commander humes. yes, sir, senator. senator cooper. assuming that we draw a straight line from point "c" which you have described as a possible point of entry of the missile, to point "d" where you saw an incision of the tracheotomy---- commander humes. yes, sir. senator cooper. what would be the relation of the bruise at the apex of the pleural sac to such a line? commander humes. it would be exactly in line with such a line, sir, exactly. senator cooper. what was the character of the bruise that you saw there? commander humes. the bruise here, photographs are far superior to my humble verbal description, but if i let my hand in cup shaped fashion represent the apical parietal pleura, it was an area approximately cm. in greatest diameter of purplish blue discoloration of the parietal pleura. corresponding exactly with it, with the lung sitting below it, was a roughly pyramid-shaped bruise with its base toward the surface of the upper portion of the lung, and the apex down into the lung tissue, and the whole thing measured about cm., which is a little-- inches in extent, sir. senator cooper. what would be the--can you describe the covering around the apex of the pleural sac, the nature of its protection. my point is to get your opinion as to whether some other factor, some factor other than the missile could have caused this bruise which you saw. commander humes. a couple of ways we might do this, sir. one with regard to temporal, it was quite fresh. when examined under the microscope, the lung in this area had recent hemorrhaging in it. the red blood cells were well-preserved, as they would be if it happened quite recently before death, as was the red blood cells where they had gotten out into the lung tissue near there. the discoloration was essentially of the same character as the discoloration in the muscles adjacent thereto, which would roughly again place it temporally in approximately the same time since bruises change color as time goes by, and these appeared quite fresh. this is with regard to time--i don't know whether that is the right parameter in which you wished to study it, senator. senator cooper. my question really went to this point: considering the location of the bruise at the apex of the pleural sac---- commander humes. yes, sir. senator cooper. and of the tissue or muscles around it, was there any other factor which you could think of that might have caused that bruise other than the passage of a missile? commander humes. it was so well localized that i truthfully, sir, can't think of any other way. senator cooper. that is all. mr. mccloy. may i ask you one question which, perhaps, the answer is quite obvious. if, contrary to the evidence that we have here, that anterior wound was the wound of entry, the shot must have come from below the president to have followed that path. commander humes. that course, that is correct, sir. mr. specter. dr. humes, can you compare the angles of declination on , point "c" to "d", with "a" to "b"? commander humes. you will note, and again i must apologize for the schematic nature of these diagrams drawn to a certain extent from memory and to a certain extent from the written record, it would appear that the angle of declination is somewhat sharper in the head wound, , than it is in . the reason for this, we feel, by the pattern of the entrance wound at "a" causes us to feel that the president's head was bent forward, and we feel this accounts for the difference in the angle, plus undoubtedly the wounds were not received absolutely simultaneously, so that the vehicle in which the president was traveling moved during this period of time, which would account for a difference in the line of flight, sir. mr. specter. aside from the slight differences which are notable by observing those two exhibits, are they roughly comparable to the angle of decline? commander humes. i believe them to be roughly comparable, sir. mr. specter. could you state for the record an approximation of the angle of decline? commander humes. mathematics is not my forte. approximately degrees from the horizontal. mr. specter. would you elaborate somewhat, doctor humes, on why the angle would change by virtue of a tilting of the head of the president since the basis of the computation of angle is with respect to the ground? commander humes. i find the question a little difficult of answering right off, forgive me, sir. mr. specter. i will try to rephrase it. stated more simply, why would the tilting of the president's head affect the angle of the decline? you stated that was---- commander humes. the angle that i am making an observation most about is the angle made that we envisioned having been made by the impingement of the bullet in its flight at the point of entry. this angle we see by the difference of the measurement of the two wounds. therefore, this is--we have several angles we are talking about here, unfortunately, this is--the angle of which we speak in this location, "a" to "b", and it is difficult. i have to retract. since we feel from their physical configurations, wounds "c" and "a" are entrance wounds, if there wasn't some significant change in the angulation of the president's head with respect to the line of flight from these missiles, the physical measurements of "c" and this "a" should be similar. they aren't, in fact, dissimilar in that there is a greater angulation in "a". therefore, there has to be either a change in the position of the vehicle in which the president is riding with respect to the horizontal or a change in the situation of the president's head. i believe that the exhibits submitted earlier, the photograph---- mr. specter. i believe the ones were given to you so far--excuse me, you are right, . commander humes. , in fact at this point shows the president's head in a slightly inclined forward position, and i am not enough aware of the geography of the ground over which the vehicle was traveling to know how much that would affect it. mr. specter. if you were to be told that there was a distance traversed of approximately feet from the time of point "c" on to point "a" on , and you would assume the additional factor that there was a slight angle of decline on the street as well, would those factors, assuming them to be true, help in the explanation of the differences in the angles? commander humes. i think that they would make the figure as depicted in quite understandably different from . mr. dulles. was it possible, in view of the condition of the brain to point with absolute accuracy to the point of exit there? i can see that the point of exit in can be clearly determined. is it equally possible to determine the point of exit in ? commander humes. no, sir; it was not, other than through this large defect because when---- mr. dulles. therefore, that angle might be somewhat different. commander humes. might be somewhat different, sir. i think we made reference to that somewhat earlier. the fragments were so difficult to replace in their precise anatomic location---- mr. dulles. that is what i thought, but i wasn't sure. commander humes. that is correct. mr. mccloy. i would like to ask a question in regard to similar to that i asked as to . in your opinion, was the wound lethal? commander humes. no, sir. mr. dulles. with the wound in , would it have affected the president's power of speech? commander humes. it could have, sir. the wound caused a defect in his trachea which would most usually have caused at least some defect in the proper phonation, sir. (discussion off the record.) the chairman. on the record. mr. specter. in response to mr. dulles' question a moment ago, doctor humes, you commented that they did not turn him over at parkland. will you state for the record what the source of your information is on that? commander humes. yes. this is a result of a personal telephone conversation between myself and dr. malcolm perry early in the morning of saturday, november . mr. specter. at that time did doctor perry tell you specifically, doctor humes, that the parkland doctors had not observed the wound in the president's back? commander humes. he told me that the president was on his back from the time he was brought into the hospital until the time he left it, and that at no time was he turned from his back by the doctors. mr. specter. and at the time of your conversation with doctor perry did you tell doctor perry anything of your observations or conclusions? commander humes. no, sir; i did not. (a short recess was taken.) the chairman. gentlemen, the commission will be in order. we will continue with the examination. mr. specter. doctor humes, as to points of entry on the body of the late president, how many were there in total? commander humes. two, sir, as depicted in -c and -a. mr. specter. and to points of exit, how many were there? commander humes. two, sir, as depicted in -d and the vicinity of -b. i make the latter remark as was developed earlier, in that the size of the large defect in the skull was so great and the fragmentation was so complex that it was impossible to accurately pinpoint the exit of the missile in the head wound. mr. specter. now as to that last factor, would the x-rays be of material assistance to you in pinpointing the specific locale of the exit? commander humes. i do not believe so, sir. the only path that the x-rays show in any detail are of the minor fragments which passed from point a to point b. mr. specter. now that you have finished your major descriptions of the wounds, can you be any more specific in telling us in what way the availability of the x-rays would assist in further specifying the nature of the wounds? commander humes. i do not believe, sir, that the availability of the x-rays would materially assist the commission. mr. specter. how about the same question as to the pictures? commander humes. the pictures would show more accurately and in more detail the character of the wounds as depicted particularly in and and in -a. they would also perhaps give the commissioners a better--better is not the best term, but a more graphic picture of the massive defect in . mr. specter. going back for a moment, doctor humes---- the chairman. before we get off that, may i ask you this, commander: if we had the pictures here and you could look them over again and restate your opinion, would it cause you to change any of the testimony you have given here? commander humes. to the best of my recollection, mr. chief justice, it would not. the chairman. mr. mccloy. mr. mccloy. may i ask this question? the chairman. go right ahead. mr. mccloy. do you have any knowledge as to whether or not any photographs were taken in dallas? commander humes. i have none, sir, no knowledge. mr. mccloy. no knowledge that any were taken? representative ford. may i ask what size are the pictures to which you refer? commander humes. we exposed both black and white and color negatives, congressman. they were exposed in the morgue during the examination. they were not developed. the kodachrome negatives when developed would be . they were in film carriers or cassettes, as were the black and white. of course they could be magnified. representative ford. have those been examined by personnel at bethesda? commander humes. no, sir. we exposed these negatives; we turned them over. here i must ask the counsel again for advice--to the secret service. mr. specter. yes; it was the secret service. commander humes. they were turned over to the secret service in their cassettes unexposed, and i have not seen any of them since. this is the photographs. the x-rays were developed in our x-ray department on the spot that evening, because we had to see those right then as part of our examination, but the photographs were made for the record and for other purposes. representative ford. but they had never been actually developed for viewing. commander humes. i do not know, sir. mr. specter. doctor humes, back to the angles for just a moment. commander humes. yes, sir. mr. specter. hypothesize or assume, if you will, that other evidence will show that the wound inflicted on commission exhibit at point c occurred while the president was riding in the rear seat of his automobile approximately feet from a point of origin in a six-floor building nearby, and assume further that the wound inflicted in at point a occurred when the president was approximately feet away from the same point. with those assumptions in mind, there would be somewhat different angles of declination going from c to d on and from a to b on . commander humes. i would expect there would. mr. specter. you have already testified earlier today that you were unable to pinpoint with precision angle a to b on because of the reconstruction of the scalp. now my question to you, in that elongated fashion, is from what you know and what you have described, are the angles, as you have expressed them to be in your opinion, consistent with a situation where the two wounds were inflicted at the angles and at the distances just described to you? commander humes. i believe they are consistent. i would state that the path outlined on -a to b is to a certain extent conjectural for the reasons given before. mr. specter. now, doctor humes, i hand you a group of documents which have been marked as commission exhibit no. and ask you if you can identify what they are? commander humes. yes, sir; these are various notes in long-hand, or copies rather, of various notes in long-hand made by myself, in part, during the performance of the examination of the late president, and in part after the examination when i was preparing to have a typewritten report made. mr. specter. are there also included there some notes that you made while you talked to doctor perry on the telephone? commander humes. yes, sir; there are. mr. specter. are there any notes which you made at any time which are not included in this group of notes? commander humes. yes, sir; there are. mr. specter. and what do those consist of? commander humes. in privacy of my own home, early in the morning of sunday, november th, i made a draft of this report which i later revised, and of which this represents the revision. that draft i personally burned in the fireplace of my recreation room. mr. specter. may the record show that the exhibit no. is the identical document which has been previously identified as commission no. for our internal purposes. is the first sheet then in that group the notes you made when you talked to doctor perry? commander humes. that is correct, sir. mr. specter. and do the next sheets represent the rough draft which was later copied into the autopsy report which has been heretofore identified with an exhibit number? commander humes. that is correct, sir. mr. specter. and what do the next two sheets represent? commander humes. the next two sheets are the notes actually made in the room in which the examination was taking place. i notice now that the handwriting in some instances is not my own, and it is either that of commander boswell or colonel finck. mr. specter. and was that writing made at the same time that the autopsy report was undertaken; that is, did you review all of the markings on those papers and note them to be present when you completed the autopsy report? commander humes. yes, sir. from the time of the completion of this examination until the submission of the written report following its preparation, all of the papers pertinent to this case were in my personal custody. mr. specter. have you now described all of the documents which were present in that , exhibit no. ? commander humes. yes, sir; with the exception of the certification to the fact that i, in fact, detailed them in my custody, and a certification that i had destroyed certain preliminary draft notes. mr. specter. and these represent all the notes except those you have already described which you destroyed? commander humes. that is correct, sir. mr. specter. now, just one point on the notes themselves. page of your rough draft, doctor humes, as to the point of origin, the notes show that there was a revision between your first draft and your final report. commander humes. yes, sir. mr. specter. will you first of all read into the record the final conclusion reflected in your final report. commander humes. i would rather read it from the final report. the final report reads: "the projectiles were fired from a point behind and somewhat above the level of the deceased." mr. specter. and what did the first draft of that sentence as shown on page of your rough draft state? commander humes. it stated as follows: "the projectiles were fired from a point behind and somewhat above a horizontal line to the vertical position of the body at the moment of impact." mr. specter. now would you state the reason for making that modification between draft and final report, please? commander humes. this examination, as i have indicated, was performed by myself with my two associates. the notes which we have just admitted as an exhibit are in my own hand and are my opinion, was my opinion at that time, as to the best way to present the facts which we had gleaned during this period. before submitting it to the typist, i went over this with great care with my two associates. one or the other of them raised the point that perhaps this sentence would state more than what was absolutely fact based upon our observations, pointing out that we did not know precisely at that time in what position the body of the president was when the missiles struck, and that therefore we should be somewhat less specific and somewhat more circumspect than the way we stated it. when i considered this suggestion, i agreed that it would be better to change it as noted, and accordingly, i did so. mr. specter. mr. chief justice, i move now for the admission into evidence of exhibit no. . the chairman. it may be admitted. (the documents, previously marked exhibit no. for identification, were received in evidence.) mr. mccloy. may i ask one question about the notes? the notes that you made contemporaneously with your examination, you said you put those down and then you put some in later. how much later were the notes, within the best of your recollection of the final notes made, not the final report, but the final notes that you made in your own handwriting? commander humes. the examination was concluded approximately at o'clock on the night of november . the final changes in the notes prior to the typing of the report were made, and i will have to give you the time because whatever time mr. oswald was shot, that is about when i finished. i was working in an office, and someone had a television on and came in and told me that mr. oswald had been shot, and that was around noon on sunday, november th. mr. specter. mr. chief justice, i have now marked another photograph as the next exhibit number, commission exhibit . may i say to the commission that this is a photograph which, subject to later proof, will show it to be taken immediately after the president was struck by the first bullet. the chairman. it may be marked. (the photograph was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) may i move for its admission into evidence at this time for this purpose? the chairman. it may be admitted. (the photograph, previously marked commission exhibit no. for identification, was received in evidence.) looking at commission exhibit , doctor humes, with that as a background, have you had an opportunity to review the medical reports on governor connally at parkland hospital in commission exhibit ? commander humes. i have. mr. specter. have you noted the wounds which he sustained on his right wrist, that is, governor connally's right wrist? commander humes. yes, sir; i have noted the report of it in these records. mr. specter. what does the report show as to those wounds on the right wrist? commander humes. the report shows a wound of entrance on the dorsal aspect of the right wrist. let's get the precise point here. the wound of entry is described as on the dorsal aspect of the right wrist above the junction of the distal fourth of the radius and the shaft. it was approximately two centimeters in length and rather oblique, with the loss of tissue, and some considerable contusions at the margins. there was a wound of exit along the volar surface of the wrist about two centimeters above the flexion crease of the wrist in the midline. mr. specter. doctor humes, i show you a bullet which we have marked as commission exhibit no. , and may i say now that, subject to later proof, this is the missile which has been taken from the stretcher which the evidence now indicates was the stretcher occupied by governor connally. i move for its admission into evidence at this time. the chairman. it may be admitted. (the article, previously marked commission exhibit no. for identification, was received in evidence.) mr. specter. we have been asked by the fbi that the missile not be handled by anybody because it is undergoing further ballistic tests, and it now appears, may the record show, in a plastic case in a cotton background. now looking at that bullet, exhibit , doctor humes, could that bullet have gone through or been any part of the fragment passing through president kennedy's head in exhibit no. ? commander humes. i do not believe so, sir. mr. specter. and could that missile have made the wound on governor connally's right wrist? commander humes. i think that that is most unlikely. may i expand on those two answers? mr. specter. yes, please do. commander humes. the x-rays made of the wound in the head of the late president showed fragmentations of the missile. some fragments we recovered and turned over, as has been previously noted. also we have x-rays of the fragment of skull which was in the region of our opinion exit wound showing metallic fragments. also going to exhibit , the report from parkland hospital, the following sentence referring to the examination of the wound of the wrist is found: "small bits of metal were encountered at various levels throughout the wound, and these were, wherever they were identified and could be picked up, picked up and submitted to the pathology department for identification and examination." the reason i believe it most unlikely that this missile could have inflicted either of these wounds is that this missile is basically intact; its jacket appears to me to be intact, and i do not understand how it could possibly have left fragments in either of these locations. mr. specter. what wounds did governor connally sustain in his chest area, based upon the records of parkland hospital, which you have examined, doctor humes? commander humes. governor connally received in his chest a wound of entrance just--this is again from --"just lateral to the right scapula close to the axilla which had passed through the lattisimus dorsi muscle, shattered approximately ten centimeters of a lateral and anterior portion of the right fifth rib, and emerged below the right nipple anterially." these were the wounds of the chest of governor connally. mr. specter. now assuming that there were only three missiles fired, and bearing in mind the positions of president kennedy and governor connally from the photograph marked commission exhibit , do you have an opinion as to the source of the missiles which inflicted the wound on president kennedy marked -c to d, and the wound in governor connally's chest which you have just referred to? commander humes. yes. i would preface this statement by the following: as i testified earlier in the afternoon, as much as we could ascertain from our x-rays and physical examinations, this missile struck no bony structures in traversing the body of the late president. therefore, i believe it was moving at its exit from the president's body at only very slightly less than that velocity, so it was still traveling at great speed. i believe in looking at exhibit , which purports to be at approximately the time the president was struck, i see that governor connally is sitting directly in front of the late president, and suggest the possibility that this missile, having traversed the low neck of the late president, in fact traversed the chest of governor connally. mr. specter. how much of the velocity, if any, or would there be an appreciable diminution of the velocity of the projectile on passing through the portions of president kennedy's body which you have described? commander humes. i would have to defer to my associate, colonel finck, for an opinion about this. mr. specter. fine. as to any damage to the rib which you described governor connally sustained, would that impact or trauma be consistent with the markings which are shown on exhibit ? commander humes. i think it quite possible. here i think if this point were to be explored further, a most valuable piece of evidence would be an x-ray of the chest of governor connally, because i believe that this missile could have struck the rib a glancing blow. the rib is a rather rigid structure, and the missile would not have to strike it directly to cause the fracture that was described, and the fracture is not very clearly described to me, and if an x-ray, for instance, showed no metallic fragments in the chest of the governor, i would think it quite likely that this was the missile that had traversed his chest, because i doubt if this missile would have left behind it any metallic fragments from its physical appearance at this time. mr. specter. could that missile have traversed governor connally's chest without having him know it immediately or instantaneously? commander humes. i believe so. i have heard reports, and have been told by my professional associates of any number of instances where people received penetrating wounds in various portions of the body and have only the sensation of a slight discomfort or slight slap or some other minor difficulty from such a missile wound. i am sure he would be aware that something happened to him, but that he was shot, i am not certain. representative ford. would that have been the potential reaction of the president when first hit, as shown in ? commander humes. it could very easily be one of some type of an injury--i mean the awareness that he had been struck by a missile, i don't know, but people have been drilled through with a missile and didn't know it. mr. specter. dr. humes, under your opinion which you have just given us, what effect, if any, would that have on whether this bullet, , could have been the one to lodge in governor connally's thigh? commander humes. i think that extremely unlikely. the reports, again exhibit from parkland, tell of an entrance wound on the lower midthigh of the governor, and x-rays taken there are described as showing metallic fragments in the bone, which apparently by this report were not removed and are still present in governor connally's thigh. i can't conceive of where they came from this missile. representative ford. the missile identified as exhibit . commander humes. , sir. mr. specter. doctor humes, would you have an opinion as to whether the wounds on governor connally's wrist and thigh were caused by the same bullet? commander humes. in reading the description of the fragmentation that was found, fragments were found in the wrist, one fragment was found imbedded in his femur, i would feel it was definitely within the realm of possibility that the same missile could have produced both of those injuries. mr. specter. those are all my questions, mr. chief justice. the chairman. are there any other questions? if not, thank you very much, commander. you have been very helpful to us, indeed. commander humes. thank you very much, sir. the chairman. thank you. mr. specter. commander boswell. mr. mccloy. may i ask one more question? the chairman. of course you may. mr. mccloy. earlier in the afternoon we had taken out of cellophane bags here the clothing of the president. commander humes. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. and amongst them was the shirt. commander humes. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. from your examination of the wounds, of the defects, i guess you would call it in the shirt---- commander humes. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. would you from examining the tissues of that shirt have any conclusions as to how that wound, how that missile passed through the shirt? was it from the rear to the front, or from the front to the rear? commander humes. as i examined that exhibit today, sir, the threads are fragmented and distorted in such a fashion which would indicate to me that the missile passed through the shirt from the rear to the front. testimony of comdr. j. thornton boswell, medical corps, u.s. navy the chairman. commander boswell, will you raise your right hand and be sworn, please? do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before this commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? commander boswell. i do, sir. the chairman. be seated, please. mr. specter. will you state your full name for the record, please? commander boswell. j. thornton boswell, commander, medical corps, u.s. navy. mr. specter. what is your profession? commander boswell. physician. mr. specter. and where did you obtain your medical degree, please? commander boswell. at the college of medicine, ohio state university. mr. specter. and what experience have you had in your professional line subsequent to obtaining that degree? commander boswell. i interned in the navy and took my pathology training at st. albans naval hospital in new york. i was certified by the american board of pathology in both clinical and pathological anatomy in and . mr. specter. and what is your duty assignment at the present time? commander boswell. i am the chief of pathology at the national naval medical school. mr. specter. did you have occasion to participate in the autopsy of the late president kennedy? commander boswell. i did. mr. specter. and did you assist doctor humes at that time? commander boswell. yes, sir. mr. specter. have you been present here today during the entire course of doctor humes' testimony? commander boswell. i have, sir; yes. mr. specter. do you have anything that you would like to add by way of elaboration or modification to that which doctor humes has testified? commander boswell. none, i believe. doctor humes has stated essentially what is the culmination of our examination and our subsequent conference, and everything is exactly as we had determined our conclusions. mr. specter. and are you one of the three coauthors of the autopsy report which has been previously identified as a commission exhibit? commander boswell. yes; i am. mr. specter. all the facts set forth therein are correct in accordance with your analysis and evaluation of the situation? commander boswell. yes. mr. specter. and specifically, as to the points of entry and points of exit which have been testified to by doctor humes, do his views express yours as well? commander boswell. they do, yes. mr. specter. doctor boswell, would you state for the record what your conclusion was as to the cause of death of president kennedy? commander boswell. the brain injury was the cause of death. mr. specter. and in the absence of brain injury, what, in your view, would have been the future status of president kennedy's mortality, if he had only sustained the wound inflicted in ? commander boswell. i believe it would have been essentially an uneventful recovery. it could have been easily repaired, and i think it would have been of little consequence. mr. specter. those are my only questions, mr. chief justice. the chairman. does anyone have any questions of the commander? if not, commander, thank you very much, indeed. you have been very helpful to us. mr. specter. colonel finck. testimony of lt. col. pierre a. finck, physician, u. s. army the chairman. colonel finck. colonel, will you raise your right hand and be sworn? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before this commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? colonel finck. i do. the chairman. will you be seated, please, colonel? mr. specter. would you state your full name for the record, please? colonel finck. my first name is pierre. my middle initial is "a". my last name is finck. mr. specter. what is your profession, sir? colonel finck. i am a physician. mr. specter. and by whom are you employed? colonel finck. by the united states army. mr. specter. and what is your rank? colonel finck. i am a lieutenant colonel in the medical corps. mr. specter. where did you obtain your medical degree? colonel finck. at the university of geneva medical school in switzerland. mr. specter. and in what year did you obtain that degree? colonel finck. in . mr. specter. what has your experience been in the medical profession subsequent to obtaining that degree? colonel finck. i had years of training in pathology after my internship, years, including years of pathology at the university institute of pathology in geneva, switzerland, and years at the university of tennessee institute of pathology in memphis, tenn. mr. specter. and how long have you been in the united states army? colonel finck. since . mr. specter. and what have your duties consisted of in the army? colonel finck. from to i performed approximately autopsies, many of them pertaining to trauma including missile wounds, stationed at frankfurt, germany as pathologist of the united states army hospital in frankfurt, germany. mr. specter. have you had any additional, special training or experience in missile wounds? colonel finck. for the past years i was chief of the wound ballistics pathology branch of the armed forces institute of pathology and in that capacity i reviewed personally all the cases forwarded to us by the armed forces, and some civilian cases from the united states and our forces overseas. the number of these cases amounts to approximately cases. i was called as a consultant in the field of missile wounds for this particular case, and also last year in february , the surgeon general of the army sent me to vietnam for a wound ballistics mission. i had to testify in a murder trial involving a / rifle in the first week of march this year, and i came back yesterday after one week in panama where i had to testify. i was sent to panama by the secretary of the army regarding the fatalities of the events of - in january of . mr. specter. have you been certified by the american board of pathology, doctor finck? colonel finck. i was certified in pathology anatomy by the american board of pathology in , and by the same american board of pathology in the field of forensic pathology in . mr. specter. would you describe briefly for the commission what forensic pathology involves? colonel finck. forensic pathology is the study with the naked eye and with the microscope of injuries, including missile wounds, trauma in general. in summary, it is the part of pathology in relation to the law, violent death being homicide, be it suicide, accidental or undetermined. it also includes unexplained deaths, sudden deaths, and poisoning. mr. specter. did you have occasion to participate in the autopsy of the late president kennedy? colonel finck. yes; i did. mr. specter. and are you one of the three coauthors of the autopsy report which has been previously marked and introduced into evidence here? colonel finck. yes, i am. mr. specter. have you had occasion to conduct any experiments on the effect of missile penetration of the brain reflected in the chart which you have brought with you here today? colonel finck. no, sir. mr. specter. of the skull--let me phrase the question this way: what does the test which is depicted on the document before you relate to? colonel finck. it is based on my observations, not on experiments. mr. specter. would you pass that to me, sir, so that i may mark that as a commission exhibit, and then i will ask you to identify it, please? mr. chief justice, may i mark as commission exhibit no. a document? the chairman. it may be marked. (the document was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. specter. i will ask doctor finck to describe it for us, please. colonel finck. this is a scheme which i prepared before the d of november. it is a teaching scheme, but it applies to the case in discussion. it will be of help in understanding how i could identify the entrance and the exit by examination of bone. "a" represents the bony portion of the skull. "b" represents the cavity of the head, the cranial cavity. "c" represents the entrance and "d" represents the exit. the arrows indicate the missile path. this scheme is based upon observation of through and through wounds of bone, and the same differences apply to a pane of glass. the surface struck first by the missile in relation to the surface struck next by the missile, this one, shows a smaller diameter, which means that if you look at the route of entrance in this case here, c, from the outside you will not see a crater. if you examine it from the inside, you will see a crater corresponding to the bevelling, coning, shelving, previously described by commander humes. in the case we are discussing today, it was possible to have enough curvature and enough portion of the crater to identify positively the wound of entrance at the site of the bone. mr. specter. relating then your evaluation of the situation with respect to president kennedy, and turning to commission exhibit no. , what is your opinion as to whether point a is a wound of entrance or exit? colonel finck. my opinion as regards exhibit , letter a, is that this wound is the wound of entrance. mr. specter. and what are the characteristics of that wound which lead you to that conclusion? colonel finck. the characteristics were that seen from the inside of the skull, i could see a beveling in the bone, a beveling that could not be seen when the wound was seen from outside the skull. mr. specter. are there any other individual characteristics that led you to conclude a was the wound of entrance? colonel finck. no. mr. specter. were you present when the three pieces of scalp were reconstructed to form the major portion of the absent part of president kennedy's skull which doctor humes described? colonel finck. i was present when several portions of bone were brought. mr. specter. and what did you observe, if anything, as to a reconstructed hole from those three portions of skull? colonel finck. may i refer to my scheme? mr. specter. please do. colonel finck. for the sake of demonstration. mr. specter. fine. colonel finck. at the level of the wound of exit, e, in my scheme, commission exhibit no. , when viewed from the inside of the skull, there was no crater, whereas when the wound is seen from the outside of the skull, there was beveling, cratering, or coning--this is possible to determine an exit even if only a portion of the bone is submitted, for the reason that if there was enough bone submitted, there is enough curvature to identify the inside and outside of the skull. therefore the fragment, to give you an example, this portion at the level of the wound of exit can be oriented, and the outer surface of the skull and the inner surface of the skull may be identified due to the curvature. and then you look at the direction of the beveling and you do see the beveling when looking from the outside and you can identify an exit wound. and that is what i did, and now i am referring to the actual case in discussion, commission exhibit . mr. specter. that is b? colonel finck. letter b. we will see portions of bone in this general area, the large wound in the bone on the right side of the skull of president kennedy. i had enough curvature to identify outside of the skull, and inside of the skull, as the first step to orient the specimen, and then i could determine the location of the beveling, and i could therefore say that b, commission exhibit , is a wound of exit. mr. specter. based on your observations and conclusions, was president kennedy shot from the front, rear, side or what? colonel finck. president kennedy was, in my opinion, shot from the rear. the bullet entered in the back of the head and went out on the right side of his skull, producing a large wound, the greatest dimension of which was approximately centimeters. mr. specter. and as to angle, was he shot from below, from level, from above, or what, in your opinion? colonel finck. in my opinion, the angle can be determined only approximately due to the fact that the wound of entrance is fairly small and could give enough precision in the determination of the path, but the dimension of the wound of exit, letter b of exhibit , is so large that we can only give an approximate angle. in my opinion, the angle was within degrees from the horizontal plane. mr. specter. is that to say that there was a -degree angle of declination from the point of origin to the point of impact, from the point of origin of the bullet where the bullet came from a gun until the point where it struck president kennedy? the chairman. in other words, you mean was he shot from above or below. mr. specter. yes. colonel finck. i think i can only state, sir, that he was shot from above and behind. mr. specter. at this time i move for admission into evidence exhibit , mr. chief justice. the chairman. it may be admitted. (the document was marked commission exhibit no. for identification, and was received in evidence.) mr. specter. as to exhibit , dr. finck, was point c a point of entry or a point of exit, in your opinion? colonel finck. in my opinion point c of commission's exhibit is a wound of entrance. mr. specter. and what is the basis for that conclusion? colonel finck. the basis for that conclusion is that this wound was relatively small with clean edges. it was not a jagged wound, and that is what we see in wound of entrance at a long range. mr. specter. were you present here today and did you hear the entire testimony of doctor humes? colonel finck. yes; i did. mr. specter. and do you concur in dr. humes' statements and opinions regarding the point of entry c, point of exit d, and general angle on the flight of the missile? colonel finck. i certainly do. mr. specter. then from what direction was president kennedy shot on entry point c? colonel finck. from behind and above. mr. specter. were the bullets used dumdum bullets, in your opinion, dr. finck? colonel finck. in what wound, sir? mr. specter. well, start with the head wound, or the back wound, either one. colonel finck. in all the wounds considered, on the basis of the aspect of the wound of entrance, dumdum bullets were not used. mr. specter. and what characteristics of dumdum bullets were absent, in your opinion--in your evaluation of these wounds? colonel finck. i would expect more jagged, more irregular and larger wounds of entrance than described in this case. representative ford. with a dumdum bullet? colonel finck. with a dumdum bullet. mr. specter. with respect to the question of likelihood of governor connally having been wounded in the back and chest with the same bullet which passed through president kennedy in , what reduction would there be, if any, in the velocity, considering the relative positions of the two men in the automobile as reflected in photograph, exhibit ? colonel finck. of course, to reach precise figures we would need experiments and similar circumstances with the same type ammunition at the same distance through two human cadavers, which i did not do. on the basis that if we assume that this is one bullet going through president kennedy's body and also through governor connally's body, the reduction of velocity would be of some extent after passing through president kennedy's body, but not having hit bones, the reduction in velocity, after going through president kennedy's body, would be minimal. mr. specter. would there be sufficient force then to inflict the wound which dr. humes described from the parkland hospital records as having been inflicted on governor connally's back and chest? colonel finck. there would be enough energy to go through the body of the governor. mr. specter. in expressing your opinion on that subject, doctor finck, have you taken into account the assumptions on distance, that we are dealing here with a weapon that has a muzzle velocity in the neighborhood of slightly in excess of , , and that the vehicle carrying these two individuals was approximately , about feet away from the site of origin of the missile? colonel finck. at this range, a bullet of this velocity loses very little velocity, and keeps upon impact a large amount of kinetic energy. mr. specter. you heard the whole of doctor humes' testimony, did you not? colonel finck. yes; i did. mr. specter. do you have anything that you would like to add to what he said? colonel finck. no. mr. specter. or would you like to modify his testimony in any way? colonel finck. no. mr. specter. do you subscribe to the observations and procedures which he outlined during the course of his testimony? colonel finck. i do. mr. specter. as having been conducted on president kennedy? colonel finck. i do. mr. specter. and do you share the opinions which he expressed in their entirety in the course of his testimony here today? colonel finck. i do. the chairman. you might be seated, colonel. mr. mccloy. just as truthful seated as standing. representative ford. how many cases did you investigate to develop this theory shown by commission exhibit ? colonel finck. among the more than cases i have reviewed, several of them--i cannot give you an exact figure, i do not tabulate them, but many of them had through and through wounds of the skull as well as of flat bones, as, for instance, the sternum, the bone we have in front of our chest, and this would apply also to a through and through wound of the sternum. i have cases like that. there was a specific case in which i was able to identify the entrance at the level of the sternum on the same basis as the criteria i have given for the skull. whenever a bullet goes through a flat bone, it will produce that beveling, that cratering, shelving, and that i have seen in numerous cases. representative ford. is this a generally accepted theory in the medical profession? colonel finck. yes, sir; it is. am i allowed to quote a standard textbook? the chairman. you may; yes sir. colonel finck. the textbook of legal medicine, pathology and toxicology by gonzalez, vance, halpern and umberger does not give a scheme like i have shown to you today, but describes similar criteria. as you know, one of the authors of the book i mentioned is still chief medical examiner of new york city, with , medical-examiner cases a year. mr. specter. doctor finck, after the path c-d described in no. , would that be a straight line starting with the weapon itself, or was that line deviated in any way or altered when it passed through the body of president kennedy? colonel finck. for practical purposes line c-d is a straight line with little or no deviation, the bullet not having hit bony structures. mr. specter. dr. finck, have you had an opportunity to examine commission's exhibit ? colonel finck. for the first time this afternoon, sir. mr. specter. and based upon your examination of that bullet, do you have an opinion as to whether in its current condition it could have passed through president kennedy at point c-d in and then inflicted the wound in the back and chest of governor connally? colonel finck. yes; i do. this is a bullet showing marks indicating the bullet was fired. the second point is that there was practically no loss of this bullet. it kept its original caliber and dimensions. there was no evidence that any major portion of the jacket was lost, and i consider this as one bullet which possibly could have gone through the wounds you described. mr. specter. and could that bullet possibly have gone through president kennedy in ? colonel finck. through president kennedy's head? ? mr. specter. and remained intact in the way you see it now? colonel finck. definitely not. mr. specter. and could it have been the bullet which inflicted the wound on governor connally's right wrist? colonel finck. no; for the reason that there are too many fragments described in that wrist. mr. specter. and is the condition of exhibit consistent with the type of a wound which doctor humes described on governor connally's rib? colonel finck. yes. mr. mccloy. i have a question. the chairman. go right ahead. mr. mccloy. from your examination of exhibit , can you identify the caliber of that bullet? colonel finck. the caliber of this bullet, if i could measure it, but i cannot touch it. the chairman. we can. colonel finck. i would say it is consistent with a . mm. mr. mccloy. are you familiar with the mannlicher . rifle? colonel finck. i am familiar with the caliber . . i can draw the calibers for you on the blackboard. mr. mccloy. what is the initial velocity of a . mm. bullet of that character? colonel finck. of the order of , feet per second. mr. mccloy. and you say there would not be a substantial diminution of that velocity either at the point of impact or at the point of exit? colonel finck. that is correct. mr. specter. one more question, mr. chief justice. on , point a to b, what is your view, dr. finck, as to whether or not that is represented by a straight line going back to the point of origin of the weapon? colonel finck. the difficulty in interpreting the path in line a-b of commission's exhibit is that, one, there is, as stated before, a large wound of exit, and, two, there is a secondary path as indicated by the fragments recovered. so we can have an assumption and state that the general direction, the general path, the general angle of this missile was from behind and above, and that the bullet, markedly fragmented, went out of the president's head on the right side, but that a portion of this bullet which badly fragmented was recovered within the skull. mr. specter. in view of the impact on the skull at point a, it is unlikely to be a straight line to b all the way back to the muzzle of the weapon as it is, say, in c-d, all the way back to the muzzle of the gun. colonel finck. in c-d, commission's exhibit , due to the fact that there was no fragmentation, i can say that it is a straight line from behind and above, whereas here, due to the fragmentation and to the dual path, i can't give a precise angle, but i can say that the injury is consistent with a wound produced by one bullet producing many fragments. the chairman. senator, have you any questions you want to ask? mr. mccloy. may i ask one? the chairman. yes; go right ahead. mr. mccloy. did you examine any of the fragments which were removed from the president's skull? colonel finck. i only saw one fragment shown to me when i arrived at bethesda, and it was an elongated black metallic fragment, and that is the only one i saw to my recollection. i was told that it had been removed from the brain of president kennedy in the anterior portion of his head. mr. mccloy. from that bullet, that fragment, could you determine, was it sufficiently large to determine from the ballistic evidence the caliber of the bullet? colonel finck. no, sir; for the reason that to determine the caliber you need the entire bullet, or at least an entire portion. you need a portion of the bullet showing the entire diameter, and i was not shown that. i was shown a fragment which represented a very small portion of the original bullet. therefore, at that time i could not say anything on the possible original caliber. mr. mccloy. you examined no fragment which did contain those characteristics? colonel finck. no, sir; i did not see any entire bullet or bullet showing the entire diameter. the chairman. congressman ford? representative ford. i believe you testified, colonel, that you concurred in the previous testimony by commander humes and commander boswell, and that you were one of the co-authors of the autopsy. at any time during this process where you were conducting the autopsy, was there any disagreement between any one of you three, any difference of opinion as to anything involved in the autopsy? colonel finck. no, sir. representative ford. there has been complete unanimity on what you saw, what you did, and what you have reported? colonel finck. yes, sir. the chairman. senator cooper? senator cooper. colonel, i would like for you to look at exhibit and at the possible trajectory of the bullet which entered president kennedy's head at a and then mark it as a possible point of exit by "out". you remember there was testimony about a portion of the bullet from point a to the place on the diagram marked "fragment" where a fragment was found. i would like to ask if it is possible that the trajectory of the bullet, from the point of origin, could have been a to this point marked "fragment" as well as from a to the place marked "out"? colonel finck. i don't think so, sir. senator cooper. why? would you explain that answer? colonel finck. i would think that i would consider the midportion of this exit would labeled b, exhibit , as the wound produced by most of the fragments and the major portions of the fragmenting bullet. this is only a small portion of it which makes me say that this is a secondary path. senator cooper. what was the size of the fragment relative to the size of the missile of the . mannlicher, fired from the . mannlicher rifle? colonel finck. approximately one-tenth, or even less. representative ford. from your numerous case studies, is it typical for a bullet, for a missile in this circumstance as shown in , to fragment to the degree that this one apparently did? colonel finck. yes, it is quite common to find a wound of exit much larger than the wound of entrance for weapons commonly used. representative ford. but is it typical for the missile to fragment to the degree that this one did as shown in exhibit ? colonel finck. yes; it is. representative ford. is it typical to find only a limited number of fragments as you apparently did in this case? colonel finck. this depends to a great extent on the type of ammunition used. there are many types of bullets, jacketed, not-jacketed, pointed, hollow-nosed, hollow-points, flat-nose, round-nose, all these different shapes will have a different influence on the pattern of the wound and the degree of fragmentation. representative ford. that is all. the chairman. thank you, colonel, very much for your help. colonel finck. you are welcome, sir. representative ford. may i ask just one question? the chairman. yes; colonel, we would like to ask just one more question. representative ford. do these two wounds represent the same or a different kind of bullet? colonel finck. you are referring to one wound and this other wound here? representative ford. i am referring to the wound shown in exhibit identified as point of entry a, and wound in exhibit identified as c. colonel finck. due to the difference in the nature of the tissue, difference in the nature of the target, it is perfectly possible that these two wounds came from the same type of bullet, that one hit bony structures and the other one did not, and that explains the differences between the patterns of these two wounds. representative ford. why one fragmented and one did not. colonel finck. yes. (discussion off the record.) the chairman. gentlemen, again thank you very much. (whereupon, at : p.m., the president's commission recessed.) _wednesday, march , _ testimony of michael r. paine and ruth hyde paine the president's commission met at a.m. on march , , at maryland avenue ne., washington, d.c. present were chief justice earl warren, chairman; senator john sherman cooper, representative gerald r. ford, john j. mccloy, and allen w. dulles, members. also present were j. lee rankin, general counsel; wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel, albert e. jenner, jr., assistant counsel; dr. alfred goldberg, historian; and charles murray, observer. testimony of michael r. paine the chairman. the commission will be in order. mr. paine, i will just read a brief statement concerning the purpose of the meeting today which is our practice. the purpose of this hearing is to take the testimony of mr. and mrs. michael r. paine. the commission has been advised that mr. and mrs. paine made the acquaintance of the oswalds during , and that mrs. marina oswald lived in the paine home from late september up to the time of the assassination. since the commission is inquiring fully into the background and possible motive of lee harvey oswald, the alleged assassin, it intends to ask the above witnesses questions concerning mr. oswald, his associations and relations with others, as well as questions concerning any and all matters relating to the assassination. you have been furnished a copy of this, have you not? mr. paine. i have seen something to that effect. the chairman. you have seen it. very well, will you rise and raise your right hand, please. do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before this commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. paine. i do. the chairman. you may be seated; mr. liebeler will propound the questions to you. mr. liebeler. would you state your name, please? mr. paine. michael r. paine. mr. liebeler. and your address? mr. paine. west fifth street, irving, tex. mr. liebeler. when were you born, mr. paine? mr. paine. june , . mr. liebeler. where? mr. paine. new york city. mr. liebeler. would you tell us briefly your educational background, where you attended schools? mr. paine. i went to school, high school in new york, went to years of harvard and a year of swarthmore, i have not finished college. mr. dulles. what class would you have been in swarthmore? mr. paine. . mr. dulles. you would have been if you finished or did you finish? mr. paine. no; i did not. mr. dulles. excuse me. mr. liebeler. you are presently married, are you not? mr. paine. that is right. mr. liebeler. your wife's name is? mr. paine. ruth hyde paine. mr. liebeler. you have two children? mr. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. tell us who your parents are. mr. paine. lyman paine is my father and ruth forbes paine young, or young is her present name. mrs. arthur young now. she is my mother. mr. liebeler. where is your father living at the present time? mr. paine. he is in los angeles. mr. liebeler. your mother? mr. paine. philadelphia. mr. liebeler. do you have any brothers and sisters? mr. paine. i have a brother in baltimore. mr. liebeler. what is his name? mr. paine. cameron paine. mr. liebeler. by whom are you presently employed? mr. paine. bell helicopter, fort worth. mr. liebeler. do you have a security clearance in connection with your work at bell helicopter? mr. paine. i suppose it is. i don't happen to know what the classification is. mr. liebeler. where did you work prior to working for bell helicopter? mr. paine. i worked in pennsylvania for arthur young. mr. liebeler. what was the nature of your employment with mr. young? mr. paine. i had set up a shop in his barn and started work for myself and then he employed me making models, helicopter models for himself. mr. liebeler. approximately at what time, what period of time did you work for mr. young? mr. paine. that is very difficult to say. i began more or less gradually first. i was doing other things. i am very vague about the dates. mr. liebeler. do you know the year approximately? mr. paine. i suppose i went to work at bell in . i have been there - / years. mr. dulles. is this mr. young your stepfather? mr. paine. that is right mr. liebeler. and you worked for him immediately prior to your going to bell helicopter? mr. paine. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. prior to working for mr. young, did you have any other employment? mr. paine. i think i came from the army. before that i worked at bartol research foundation in swarthmore. mr. liebeler. you were going to tell us what that was. mr. paine. that was mostly a job of setting up a laboratory to--was nuclear research laboratory, van der graaf generators it had there. mr. liebeler. what was the nature of your work with bartol? mr. paine. mostly all the work in making those machines, setting those machines so they would run; making counters, coincidence counters, instrumentation to operate the machine. mr. liebeler. how long did you work for bartol? mr. paine. that was just about a year, i believe. mr. liebeler. prior to that did you have any other employment? mr. paine. no, that was swarthmore. mr. liebeler. did you ever work for the griswold manufacturing co. mr. paine. oh, i did; yes. that was after--well, after the army. i think it was only a few months, i don't remember when it fitted in. mr. liebeler. what was the nature of your work with that company? mr. paine. that was very boring. it was engraving precision scales. mr. liebeler. you worked in the actual engraving of the scales? mr. paine. that is correct. mr. liebeler. what is the nature of your work with bell helicopter at the present time? mr. paine. i am called a research engineer. i work in a lab and design and build and test models of new concepts of helicopter configurations. mr. liebeler. have you been engaged in that type of work for bell throughout the entire time you have been employed by them? mr. paine. i have been in the research laboratory research group that long. it has all been problems---- mr. dulles. are you a helicopter pilot by any chance yourself? mr. paine. i am an airplane pilot. mr. liebeler. but your work basically for bell has been in the research of design and operation of helicopters? mr. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. would you tell us the circumstances under which you met your wife and subsequently married her? mr. paine. i met her at a folk dance party, folk dance meeting, and i had known her for about years before we married. mr. liebeler. when did you meet her approximately? mr. paine. we were married, i think, in , it was the end of the year so maybe it was . what was the question again? mr. liebeler. approximately when you met her. mr. paine. two years before that would be, . mr. liebeler. or . mr. paine. yes. (at this point, representative ford entered the hearing room.) mr. liebeler. we understand that you are a quaker, mr. paine, is that correct? mr. paine. that is not quite correct. when i was in philadelphia, i sang in various churches, and ruth being a quaker, started going to quaker meetings. had i remained there i would have become a quaker. moving to texas there was a very small quaker community, and i joined the unitarian church after a while. mr. liebeler. when did you first become interested in the quaker religion; was it about the time you met your wife or was it before that. mr. paine. no; i think she was instrumental in bringing me into that circle. mr. liebeler. give us a brief description of the outside interests that you and your wife and that your wife had during the time subsequent to your meeting and until the time you left philadelphia. was she active in church activities? mr. paine. no; i wouldn't say so. she was active in the young friends committee of north america which was making an effort to bring a group of russians on tour of this country. it was in the first flush or enthusiasm of east-west contacts, and after a couple of years they did succeed in bringing those russians on tour. that was the beginning of her interest in russian, learning the russian language. i think that was her only activity that i am aware of or remember right now. mr. liebeler. do you know whether your wife engaged in a writing campaign or a pen pal campaign between people in the united states and people in the soviet union? mr. paine. that was another part of this east-west contacts committee's duties or tasks they took upon themselves and i think she was chairman, accepted the chairmanship of that committee. for a while, it was almost moribund, very inactive. mr. dulles. which committee was that, the committee to stimulate letters between russia and the united states? mr. paine. yes; to find names and addresses on each side to connect people together. mr. liebeler. did you yourself ever take part in any activity of that group? mr. paine. no; i didn't. mr. liebeler. you spoke of the east-west contacts committee as being active in trying to bring a group of russians to the united states. did they engage in any activities other than this attempt to bring russians to the united states that you know of? mr. paine. that is the only one i know of, yes. mr. liebeler. did they succeed in bringing some russians to the united states? mr. paine. yes; they did. they brought three russians, and then the russians reciprocated by taking a group of quakers who knew russian on a tour of russia. mr. liebeler. were you married to ruth hyde paine at the time these russian people came to the united states under the auspices of the east-west contacts committee? mr. paine. i might have been; i don't know. mr. liebeler. do you know whether she actively participated in the program to bring the russians to the united states? mr. paine. well, she participated insofar as going to the meetings. i don't believe she did most of the writing to the state department and what-not to try to arrange clearances and itineraries and things like that, but she was at the meetings at which those things were discussed. mr. liebeler. did she ever discuss them with you in any detail? mr. paine. we, i would often--i went to several of those meetings myself. mr. liebeler. do you know the names of any of the russians who came to the united states in connection with this program? mr. paine. i might recognize them if i saw them again, but right now the names have escaped me. mr. liebeler. you say there were just three of them? mr. paine. i think there were three; yes. mr. liebeler. are you a member of the american civil liberties union? mr. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. when did you become a member of that organization? mr. paine. i suppose you become a member as soon as you contribute money, and i may have contributed money a good many years back. i didn't start going to a meeting of the organization until i was--i have only been to about four perhaps, in dallas, four meetings. mr. liebeler. is dallas the only place you have attended meetings of the aclu? mr. paine. to my knowledge. mr. liebeler. are you acquainted with an organization known as the friends peace committee? mr. paine. it is a familiar name. i guess not, though. i don't think i have been to a meeting of theirs. mr. liebeler. do you know if it is connected in any way with the young friends committee of north america. mr. paine. i take it to be a friend, you know, a quaker committee but i believe it is connected. mr. liebeler. do you know a gentleman by the name of dennis jamison, who i believe is active in the friends peace committee? mr. paine. i don't think so. mr. liebeler. or george lakey? mr. paine. for practical purposes; no. the names seem a little familiar but i can't place them. mr. liebeler. do you have any recollection of the connection in which it is familiar to you? mr. paine. no. mr. liebeler. are you familiar with the committee for non-violent action? mr. paine. many of these things sound familiar. i don't--i really am saying no. mr. liebeler. are you a member or have you ever attended any meetings of the john birch society? mr. paine. i am not a member. i have been to one or, i guess chiefly one meeting of theirs. mr. liebeler. where was that? mr. paine. that was in dallas? mr. liebeler. when? mr. paine. that was the night stevenson spoke in dallas. the chairman. when? mr. paine. the night stevenson spoke in dallas, u.n. day. representative ford. was that ? mr. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. would you tell us the circumstances of your attendance at that meeting and what happened? mr. paine. i had been seeking to go to a birch meeting for some time, and then i was invited on this night so i went. it was an introductory meeting. mr. dulles. on the th of november? mr. paine. it was november something, i don't know what, a wednesday or thursday night. mr. liebeler. for the record i think the record should indicate that mr. stevenson was in dallas on or about october , . who invited you to this meeting? mr. paine. i had tried once before to go to a meeting which didn't occur. there happens to be a member of our choir, a paid soloist who is a john birch advocate so i have been applying--so i have been telling her, that i wanted to go. i suppose, i don't remember for certain but i suppose she was the one who told me where and when. mr. liebeler. did this meeting have anything to do with the activity that occurred at mr. stevenson's meeting in dallas? mr. paine. no. you see they were taking place at the same time. it was rather sparsely attended, most of them were down spitting on stevenson. mr. liebeler. the birch meeting which you were down to was sparsely attended? mr. paine. yes. representative ford. was this an evening meeting or afternoon? mr. paine. this is evening. representative ford. evening. mr. dulles. may i ask, did you go out of curiosity rather than sympathy or rather how did you happen to go? mr. paine. i am not in sympathy. mr. dulles. so i gathered. mr. paine. i have been to a number of rightist meetings and seminars in texas. i was interested in seeing more communication between the right and the left; there isn't much liberal out there and so i wanted to be able to speak their language and know that their fears--and be familiar with their feelings and attitudes. mr. liebeler. was there any discussion at this meeting as far as you can recall of mr. stevenson's appearance in dallas? mr. paine. no; i don't believe there was any. mr. liebeler. was there any discussion of the policy of the kennedy administration? mr. paine. there was no discussion at that meeting. it was a - or -hour lecture on a movie by welch, and then a young man gave a few more explanations about the organization. it was mostly an introductory meeting. i think for newcomers. mr. liebeler. telling them about the john birch society itself? mr. paine. that is right. mr. liebeler. mr. welch was not there, was he? mr. paine. no; he was not. representative ford. was this a movie in which he participated? mr. paine. he was the speaker at a lectern in this movie. mr. liebeler. do you have any knowledge of the political attitudes or activities of your father, george lyman paine? mr. paine. i have very little specific knowledge of what he does. mr. liebeler. would you tell us what you do know about your father's political activities? mr. paine. i have seen my father rather rarely. since i have been in texas, i have seen him more frequently. i think i have been out there three times now in the last years. mr. liebeler. when you say out there--you mean los angeles? mr. paine. yes; i have seen him twice. he was out to texas. i have been to los angeles twice, and he came at least once to dallas. mr. liebeler. please fix the time when you went to los angeles? mr. paine. last summer, weeks in august or something. i was there for days, the first, the middle of august. i would guess it was about years before that that i had been there. i could be off by a year both ways. i can't even remember whether he came--i think he probably interspersed his visit between mine. mr. liebeler. do you recall that he visited irving on two different occasions, once in christmas, ? mr. paine. one was a christmas party, that is right. mr. liebeler. and once in the summer of . mr. paine. i don't remember ' . i do remember pictures now, we have pictures showing us outside so that was balmy weather. mr. liebeler. so that in the period that you have been living in texas you have gone to los angeles on two different occasions and visited your father there and he has been in irving on two different occasions, is that correct? mr. paine. that seems, i think, to be right. mr. liebeler. would you go on and tell us what you know about your father's political activities? mr. paine. yes. well, we would have to go back to a little to when i lived in new york as a school student in school, grammar school and high school. there i would see him very infrequently considering our close proximity and the fact that i found him stimulating and i liked him. he took me to a few, one or possibly two, communist meetings at my considerable insistence. he didn't urge this upon me. i wanted to go, to get the feeling of the--i asked him what he did or something and i wanted to know all this, my mother said he was on the radical left. so, i went to a few of those meetings, and didn't--was unfamiliar with the issues and questions they were debating. i got the feeling, i came away with the impression, that these people, there were three communist groups apparently in new york at the time, and they were most up in arms with each other, or there---- mr. dulles. excuse me, how old were you at this time approximately? mr. paine. this was somewhere from eighth grade to high school. mr. dulles. yes. representative ford. what year about, what time span would that be? mr. paine. well , i think i got out of high school, so it is to . then i didn't--i got the flavor of those meetings. i found sort of an intense people, people of high intensity. i didn't feel very much at home there, and i guess i didn't go to any more. mr. dulles. did they try to recruit you at all or to get you to be a member or attend or join meetings? mr. paine. no; they were glad to meet lyman's son. that is he would introduce me to friends or people he knew there, and i liked--i had some favorable attitudes to the zeal of the group or the zeal of the assembled people. they were fully committed to what they believed in. i had my own dreams of how i would like to see society at the time and it wasn't along the same line. so, i felt happy to have them there and i would go my course and just--i didn't feel opposed to them; neither did i feel drawn to them, although i tried to read some of das kapital at that time and communist manifesto. mr. liebeler. did you ever join any of these organizations? mr. paine. well, i didn't know of any organization as such. i went to this meeting in downtown new york. i didn't know--so therefore i knew three groups. maybe it was the socialist group and the stalinist group and i think the group that lyman was in, i don't know, maybe he was a socialist. mr. liebeler. which was the second group, was it the stalinist? mr. paine. i mentioned the stalinist, dubinsky, david dubinsky, was the only name i remember aside from stalin, was a name i remember there, and i can't now remember whose side who was on. mr. liebeler. do you have any clear recollection of what particular group your father was associated with? mr. paine. no; i never had--never knew what the name of any group he might be associated with. now, i suppose it was trotsky. trotskyite was a different distinct group at that time. they probably wouldn't be mentioning their own group. they would be mentioning their opponent's group. mr. liebeler. subsequent to your attendance at the meetings of these groups at the time you have spoken of did you ever attend any other meetings of similar groups either in new york or any other place? mr. paine. i can't remember anything of a similar nature. mr. liebeler. did you know of your father ever using any aliases? mr. paine. no; i don't. mr. liebeler. you are not familiar with the name thomas l. brown or lyman pierce? mr. paine. no. mr. liebeler. when was the---- mr. paine. i was aware that my father didn't talk readily about his affairs. when we met we would talk at great length and we always do talk. there is an amazing similarity in our natures. i have almost thought there was one person trying to live in two bodies. but we have always been completely absorbed in subjects that were closer to my--without going into what he was doing day to day or what he was--i was aware that i didn't know, and i didn't pry or probe as to what he might be doing there. mr. liebeler. so far as you know, however, he was actively participating in the meetings and activities of this group? mr. paine. oh, yes. mr. liebeler. am i correct in understanding that your father and mother were divorced when you were about years old? mr. paine. that is right. mr. liebeler. you were at that time living in new york city? mr. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. subsequently you and your mother. mr. paine. she got a divorce in reno, nev., she had a house in virginia city. the chairman. in new york you were living with your father or mother? mr. paine. they lived together in new york. then there was a year, a part of a year, we moved to philadelphia. they may have separated and he tried to come back or something like that, and then we went to reno, nev. mr. liebeler. during the time you lived in philadelphia, was your father living with the family? mr. paine. i think he was there part time. i don't remember that for sure. we had two houses there. one i think i remember him slightly and the other one i don't. mr. liebeler. your father was not present during the time that you stayed in nevada? mr. paine. no; he was not. mr. liebeler. you and your brother stayed in nevada with your mother? mr. paine. and a housekeeper also. mr. liebeler. after you left nevada where did you live? mr. paine. we went over to california. santa barbara. mr. liebeler. who lived there at that time with you? mr. paine. a friend of hers, kathleen, now she was originally kathleen schroeder, a sister of my uncle, now kathleen forbes, and a distant cousin of my mother's, and i think my grandfather, grandparents, would come out occasionally. mr. liebeler. was your father present at that time? mr. paine. no; he was not. mr. liebeler. he wasn't there at any time during your stay in santa barbara? mr. paine. i don't remember that. i am not certain of it. mr. liebeler. how long did you live in santa barbara, calif.? mr. paine. each year my grandfather paid our way back across the country to naushon island in massachusetts. we lived there years. mr. liebeler. where did you go after that? mr. paine. cambridge, mass. mr. liebeler. how long were you there? mr. paine. from the third to the sixth grade. mr. liebeler. with whom did you live? mr. paine. with my mother on fairweather street. the chairman. is this of particular importance to the investigation, it is very lengthy, and i don't know particularly what it bears upon. if it is in relation with his father, let's get at that and get it over with, but i don't see what this man's history from the time he was born--i don't see how it bears on it. it just takes altogether too much time for an extraneous purpose, it seems to me. let's get on with the thing. mr. liebeler. it bears on the point only on what connection he has with his father. mr. paine. let me go to that. i have seen him on a few times, once a year would be a frequent--we felt great affinity in our bent, not in the actual application of the way we would like to do things but in a concern for the value of people. i know very little about what he does, and he has not tried to proselytize me, and he has not volunteered information about what he did. i think a certain change has come over him since. for many years or years in college or something i thought he was still interested in his revolutionary groups and that was a pity because that wasn't going to happen, and it was to be a dead end, a blind, he would come to the end of his life and his cause had fizzled out. when i went out to california more recently, the last time we were talking about the civil rights movement and, shall we say, the revolution occurring in this country spearheaded by the negroes' demand for dignity, that was a subject that completely absorbed the weekend and there were various negroes who came around the country, who happened to pass through at that time. you probably might be interested in regard to cuba. i was surprised sometime in the conversation someone there had spoken favorably of the revolution in cuba. this was a surprise to me, i didn't realize that this was part of the--was the present thrill, shall we say. i don't know whether that applied to lyman also or whether--i think he went along with that. we didn't get around to arguing on that point. i only mention that in passing. that was about the full extent of it. she mentioned cuba in this favorable way, and it was a subject i didn't---- mr. dulles. who was this she? mr. paine. it was grace somebody, i have forgotten. mr. dulles. one of the people present in these conversations? mr. paine. yes. so that was my only knowledge that he was, or the people around him were, interested in cuba, and that is the only thing i can see has any bearing in your interest here. mr. liebeler. to what extent would you say that your father has influenced your own political views and attitudes? mr. paine. i would have guessed it was almost negligible. i was aware that sometime in the beginning of college or something i used the language of the masses or i used jargon which i recognized, came to perceive was of quite leftist nature, and i think that at the time i used to get the nation, that was in high school. i probably picked it up more from the magazines and things of that sort than from him. mr. liebeler. did you ever discuss your father with lee oswald? mr. paine. on a phone call shortly after the assassination he called and thought it was outrageous to be pinning lee oswald who was a scapegoat, an ideal person to hang the blame on. mr. liebeler. your father called you? mr. paine. yes; he called me, yes. he didn't suppose it was true, i told him i thought it probably was true. and i told him to keep his shirt on. mr. liebeler. do you remember anything else about that conversation? mr. paine. no. it was chiefly both he and freddy, his wife, had to be calmed down. they thought it was a steamrollered job of injustice or something. and i didn't think their admonitions were--i think not to say anything, not to join the hubbub or jump on the things i said or i took it to be things i said would be distorted and blown up and added to the hullabaloo to lynch lee. representative ford. did they infer or imply that the allegations or accusations against oswald bore the semblance of a lynching? and i use lynching in the broad sense. mr. paine. they did not use lynching at all. i added that. they thought he was---- representative ford. being railroaded? mr. paine. no; he said that no one, no member of the friends of cuba would want to assassinate the president. that was a crazy idea. representative ford. you said that was a crazy idea? mr. paine. no; he said that. therefore, he concluded, and this was the same, similar to my feeling, that i first didn't think oswald had done it because i didn't see how it fitted in, how it helped his favorite ideals. and lyman then said the same thing. therefore, including himself, lyman, that lee couldn't have done it, and that this must be--lee was the ideal person to hang it on. representative ford. how soon was this phone call after the assassination? mr. paine. i think it was--he did not know, i think, that we had marina staying with us, but he was one of the first to connect, guess that it was us. he called and asked us, "is this you?" representative ford. "is this you?" what? i don't quite understand the context here. mr. paine. he heard it on the news and he heard mrs. paine, and marina had been staying with a mrs. paine and he called to ask, "are you the paines?" mr. liebeler. had you discussed lee oswald with your father prior to this time? mr. paine. no; i don't think i mentioned him. mr. liebeler. do you know whether your father knew lee oswald? mr. paine. no; i do not know. or i gather since he had such a funny idea of him over the phone. mr. liebeler. to the best of your judgment the only way your father heard of lee oswald, connected lee oswald to you, was through a news broadcast that he had heard connecting oswald with somebody named paine? mr. paine. or marina had stayed with the paines. mr. liebeler. did you ever discuss your father with lee oswald? mr. paine. no; i did not. mr. liebeler. and oswald never asked you about your father in any way or did he indicate that he knew of your father? mr. paine. no; he did not. i think ruth came closer to revealing that my father had--you will have to ask her about that question. i did not mention my father to lee. mr. liebeler. when did you meet lee oswald? mr. paine. i met him sometime in the spring of . mr. dulles. this is oswald? mr. liebeler. yes; lee oswald. mr. paine. we were invited to a party, ruth and i were invited to a party, given by everett glover. i had a cold and wasn't able to go. ruth went at that time and subsequently went once or twice to see marina. and she invited marina and lee to our house for dinner, and here the date that comes to mind is april . mr. dulles. where was marina staying at this time? mr. paine. berry street. mr. dulles. berry street in dallas. mr. liebeler. berry street or would it be neely street? mr. paine. neely street. so this was the first time i saw them. i had to go over, he didn't drive a car and i had to go over, and pick him up in my car and bring him back to the house. so i went over to neely street and saw them. marina took about half an hour to pack all the things for junie. meanwhile i was talking to lee at their house there. mr. liebeler. would you tell us about that conversation? mr. paine. i asked him what he was doing, his job, and he showed me a picture on the wall, which was a piece of newspaper, i think--that is beside the point. i asked him about russia, what he liked about---- mr. dulles. could we get that picture? mr. paine. i think it was beside the point. it was a piece of newspaper showing a fashion ad, i think. i think his job was---- mr. dulles. nothing to do with politics at all, to do with his job. i see. mr. paine. i asked him what he thought. i wanted to know why he had gone to russia and why he had then come back. he had told me he had become a marxist in this country without ever having met a communist, by reading books and then he got to russia, and---- mr. liebeler. did he tell you why he went to russia? mr. paine. he said he wanted to go to russia. he had chosen to go to russia. mr. liebeler. he didn't elaborate on it? mr. paine. no; i gathered he had had an interest in going to russia for a number of years prior to the time he got there and decided that that was the paradise of the world and through fortunate relations between this country and russia at the time, i would have to remember history to know whether that was a warm, a friendly time or not, but he indicated both his going and his coming were fortunate times in history or something that made it possible for him to do these. mr. dulles. fortunate times? mr. paine. fortunate times, this was sort of an accident in history. this is what i gathered from his conversation. representative ford. fortunate that he could leave at the time and fortunate that he could come back. mr. paine. fortunate that he could be accepted to emigrate to russia. he told me that he had--so he went to russia and he tried to surrender his passport to the russians but the state department would not give it to him, or the consul in moscow, which was--which proved to be fortunate because then a few years later when he wanted to return it would not have been possible, except if they still had his passport. he had not legally surrendered it. mr. liebeler. did he indicate that was a fortunate circumstance? mr. paine. i think he smiled, he indicated to me he genuinely had wanted to become a russian citizen and to surrender it. he wanted to renounce his american citizenship. he tried to, and the russians, he told me, had accepted his bona fide intentions and tried to get the passport away from the americans. representative ford. was the failure to get his passport a determining factor in their not accepting his desires? mr. paine. no. he told me that they did accept his desires despite his inability to get the passport and give it to them. representative ford. despite his inability? mr. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. "they" being the russians? mr. paine. yes; they being the russians and they issued to him, he told me, the standard kind of temporary citizenship paper which is given to all emigres to russia, and there are some---- mr. dulles. was it citizenship paper he said or something else, citizenship paper? mr. paine. now, i suppose there was a regular paper and everybody would know of it. mr. dulles. domicile paper or something allowing domicile. mr. paine. i had thought, my impression was, that it was kind of probationary citizenship. it is a kind of paper issued for a year to somebody who is seeking citizenship. that was my impression at the time. mr. dulles. could it have been a probationary residence permit or something of that sort. he said citizenship, did he? mr. paine. that was my impression. that it was the commencement of a citizenship paper. mr. dulles. did he tell you about any difficulties he had in getting permission to stay on in russia? mr. paine. well, this was a question. i asked him how was it they so readily accepted--you know other americans have a hard time staying more than days there, "how was it that you were so readily accepted into the bosom of soviet society?" and to that he answered, "well, it was just a fortunate mood between the countries or something to that effect," is something that i gathered. i didn't remember the history and i thought it would be--he smiled a little bit. i can't remember whether he smiled a little bit when i then asked him how did he manage to get out, at one time, but at one time i do remember he smiled as though there were a story there, and i didn't--i supposed the story would be too intricate, not interesting enough to try to get him to relate it. mr. liebeler. you did not ask him to relate the story? mr. paine. no; i did not. mr. liebeler. did you ever learn the circumstances under which he left russia, from him? mr. paine. as he told me at that same half hour before we came back to our house on fifth street,---- mr. dulles. was this the first time you had seen him? mr. paine. all this happened in the first half hour. mr. dulles. the first time you had ever seen him? mr. paine. the first time i had seen him or at least that first night. he told me he had decided, that he had wanted, to come back to this country and it was through the fortunate circumstance of the embassy still having his passport which was a legal loophole that made it legally possible, and i asked him--at sometime i thought this was rather nice that the state department, i think this was a little later in the same evening, the state department had forewarned him, had granted him money also, to come back. mr. liebeler. did he tell you that? mr. paine. he told me that and i was rather proud of the state department for its generous behavior toward such a wayward citizen. he actually had spoken--i had mentioned this because he had spoken abusively of the american government. mr. liebeler. at this time, during the first meeting? mr. paine. not just the american government--yes; at this same meeting. he had spoken with abuse of, sort of resentment that they didn't let him have his passport and i thought, well now, that was just kind of a nice trick, by having a consular official there that he knew, this man wanted to change his mind, this little legal dodge of not wanting to give him his passport which i think is illegal if the man wants it, it would be the thing to permit him to come back. mr. liebeler. did you point that out to lee oswald? mr. paine. yes; i did. mr. liebeler. what did he say? mr. paine. i don't think he responded to it. mr. dulles. he talked about surrendering the passport rather than surrendering citizenship, did he? mr. paine. the two were synonymous, i thought, that if you surrendered your passport and with the intention of adopting another one that was renouncing american citizenship. mr. dulles. i see. mr. paine. which he wanted, he told me he wanted to renounce his american citizenship. he said that quite flatly. mr. liebeler. do you remember anything else about this conversation concerning his trip back and his attitude toward the state department and the united states that he discussed during this first meeting? mr. paine. i don't believe so. i think i have got it a little confused with marguerite oswald what she said at the assassination, at the time of the night of the d. she was resentful of the state department, thinking it had been remiss in taking so long in getting him back. i don't remember whether he had voiced the same--i am confused, i don't know whether it was he or she who had voiced this resentment. i thought to the contrary it was very generous. mr. liebeler. do you remember whether or not oswald himself voiced resentment against the government of the united states in this connection? mr. paine. yes; i do remember that. that was the thing that prompted me to say that it was actually rather nice of them to have been illegal just for this---- mr. dulles. i didn't catch the last. nice of them to have been what? mr. paine. i thought it probably was illegal of the embassy official not to hand over his passport when he demanded it in order to surrender it to the soviet union. mr. liebeler. but you don't remember oswald responding to that when you made that answer to him? mr. paine. i don't remember his response. the chairman. you also said you thought it was rather nice of the state department to do that in order to make it possible for him to return if he wanted to? mr. paine. yes; i said both of these things. they had given him money. they had held, a peccadillo to hold, the passport out of the knowledge that he might, such people might, want to return, change their mind, and then to provide him money moreover to come back, this all seemed to me rather nice even though it had taken more months than when he originally wanted to come back. i had said, this in response to his, some kind of expression on his part of criticism of the state department or the foreign embassy or whatever it is. mr. liebeler. do you remember why he was critical? was he critical because they had not given him his passport when he went to russia or was he critical because in his opinion they had taken so long to arrange his return? mr. paine. i think he was critical when he first mentioned it, he seemed to have the critical attitude--some of this critical attitude may have been facial expressions or way of speaking, which was somewhat common with him. therefore, i can't remember for sure whether it was in the words or in his attitude. he was critical, though, certainly of the first, of the state department not relinquishing his passport. mr. dulles. was he critical at this latter time? mr. paine. he was critical of that as he was relating to his desire to go to the soviet union. he was relating the story to me, and then he had spoken of the state department as though they were a bunch of bastards, wouldn't--or illegal or something. anyway, he was unfavorable. mr. dulles. but did you indicate he was rather glad that they had later taken this position so that he could get his passport back or did i misunderstand you on that? mr. paine. well, i pointed out to him that or said "it was kind of fortunate that they had held your passport," and i think he nodded his assent to that. mr. liebeler. did he tell you why he decided to return to the united states from russia? mr. paine. most of this conversation, i think, was when we had first met and i wasn't sure whether he was speaking derogatively of the soviet union in order to win my good graces or thinking he could win my friendship that way. however, he spoke more with disfavor of the soviet union during this first meeting than was quite comprehensible to someone who had gone there. mr. liebeler. what did he say? mr. paine. but chiefly what he said was that he didn't have choice of where he could live, you were assigned, he spoke with a certain amount of derision, scorn of the fact that you were assigned jobs, and he thought the food was boring, i think, to use his word. he had mentioned that he liked to--he had gone hunting with some friends, that was the only thing he mentioned about the soviet union in which i sensed that he had been with people except for also mentioning that he had been the center of interest as an american who couldn't drive a car. but apparently he had relished going hunting. he had also said with resentment, a soviet citizen could not own a rifle. they could own shotguns but not a rifle, and that you could shoot a rifle only by joining a rifle club which he said was a paramilitary organization. again, this was with a degree of scorn in his voice or his attitude. i had assumed that he at least tried the paramilitary organization, the rifle club, so he could speak with such scorn, with knowledge of what he was speaking about. mr. liebeler. did he tell you that he had joined an organization in which he was permitted to shoot a rifle? mr. paine. no; he did not. i don't know that for a fact. i had assumed from his conversation that he had tried it but i gather that he did not like this organization. mr. dulles. did he say anything about having to leave the rifle at the club, that you couldn't take the rifle away from the club, or anything of that kind? mr. paine. i assume that was true. he didn't mention it, he mentioned that a soviet citizen could not possess a rifle. mr. liebeler. did he speak of any training that he might have received in connection with either a rifle or a shotgun while he was in the soviet union? mr. paine. no; he didn't. mr. liebeler. did he indicate to you the degree of facility with which he used either of these weapons while he was in the soviet union? mr. paine. no; he did not. mr. liebeler. he--is there anything else he told you about this hunting club or this rifle or shotgun that you can remember now? mr. paine. no; i am not particularly interested in rifles and hunting so that i didn't--it was an ideal opportunity--i think he did love hunting so i think it would have been an ideal way to reach him in a somewhat human way. mr. dulles. you got no idea of how much time he was at the rifle club or what? did it seem to be a frequent occupation? mr. paine. no; i can't say i had any fruitful idea of whether he was a member of it. i assumed he was a member of it. he didn't say he was a member of it. i assumed he spoke with authority saying it was a paramilitary organization and somehow conveying the idea that he didn't like that aspect of it and, therefore, i assumed he didn't like it. he spoke only with pleasure of his hunting trip. he mentioned a hunting trip, i don't think he mentioned them in plural, which he had taken with some friends. mr. liebeler. do you remember any more details about that hunting trip? mr. paine. we talked, this was within the first half hour, the talk was very brief. mr. liebeler. did he ever mention to you this hunting trip or anything relating to a rifle or shotgun in the soviet union at any later time? mr. paine. no; i didn't know what time he was referring to. mr. liebeler. i mean at any other time after the first meeting with you did he refer again to his activities in the soviet union? mr. paine. i see. mr. liebeler. in connection with this rifle? mr. paine. no; that subject never came up again. mr. liebeler. did he tell you at this first meeting about his work in the soviet union? mr. paine. i had gathered he worked somewhere in a television factory. mr. liebeler. did he tell you that? mr. paine. yes; i can't remember whether it was television, it was electronics of some sort. mr. liebeler. did he tell you the nature of his work? mr. paine. he did not tell me. i thought to myself that if he was in a very honorable position there he would have mentioned it. so, i thought he was probably just a mechanic of some sort, wiring it together. mr. liebeler. did he tell you how much he was paid? mr. paine. i can't remember, i think he did but i don't remember what he said. mr. liebeler. did he indicate that he received any income other than from his work? mr. paine. no; i don't believe he told me anything about that. mr. liebeler. we have been referring primarily here in our questioning to the first meeting that you had with him, but do you remember any subsequent conversation with oswald about his work, his pay, and his income in the soviet union after this first meeting? mr. paine. i think he thought it was too low. he thought the standard of living, he recognized the standard of living was low, and they were restricted therefore in their--just too confined, told where to live. the food was boring and there was nothing to do. i didn't get the idea it was lack of money. he did not say anything about lack of money. mr. dulles. i wonder if we could get for our guidance the approximate number of times he saw lee oswald? mr. paine. it was about four times that we had lengthy conversations. mr. dulles. four times, that is four times prior to the date of the assassination. mr. paine. that is correct. mr. dulles. or that includes all the times? mr. paine. i didn't see him again after the assassination. mr. dulles. you didn't see him after the assassination. four times prior to the assassination including this one time you have already described? mr. paine. yes. this is the first meeting before he went to new orleans and then about three weekends after he came back---- mr. dulles. i think that will be taken up. i just wanted to get in my mind approximately how many times in all you saw him. mr. liebeler. did oswald at any time indicate to you that he was treated by the russian authorities in any way different from ordinary russian citizens who occupied a similar status in the soviet union? mr. paine. no; i wasn't aware of that. mr. liebeler. did he tell you about any special training that he had? mr. paine. no; he did not. mr. liebeler. did he mention his living accommodations? mr. paine. well, with some kind of resentment he did, that it was assigned, and i think that is about all he said. mr. dulles. may i ask whether these questions relate to all the four times or just to the first time, are we still on the first? mr. liebeler. basically on the first time, sir, unless we specify to the contrary. mr. dulles. yes. mr. liebeler. tell us what else you and oswald discussed during this first meeting that you had? mr. paine. unfortunately that first meeting was the clearest one. i was asking him questions, taking his answers. i had hoped when i met this man to have insights into russia, both meeting him and meeting his wife, and interesting talks about the differences between the russian system and the american, the western system. then i found that he was--some questions, later in the evening, the conversation was translated into russian also so that marina could follow along. mr. dulles. you mean after the first half hour when you were preparing---- mr. paine. that is right, when we came back after dinner to our house. mr. dulles. your house. so this went on? mr. paine. what you have heard now occurred mostly in the first half hour when i was speaking directly to him when i met him. mr. liebeler. then you returned to irving to your house and had dinner and had the additional conversation? mr. paine. yes. now, in all the subsequent conversations, you are going to get less information in what he said. mr. dulles. in the first part of this meeting you were alone and in the second part of the meeting there were other people there? mr. paine. my wife and marina was able to join us. at this time marina was packing things for junie and i noticed that he was speaking very harshly to her. he was telling her what bag or satchel to take. i gathered from it, of course, it was in russian, and i thought to myself, here is a little fellow who certainly insists on wearing the pants. mr. dulles. you don't understand russian yourself? mr. paine. no. so he spoke loudly to her, and didn't rise from his seat. but spoke surprisingly harshly especially in front of a guest. mr. dulles. how did she take this? mr. paine. with a bit of umbrage. she didn't like it. it rankled her. representative ford. in other words, this half hour conversation took place in their apartment? mr. paine. yes. representative ford. while she was packing the bags to go to your home? mr. paine. that is right. mr. dulles. was she packing the bags for some days or was this---- mr. paine. no; just bottles, diapers, clothing, something. mr. dulles. for a weekend? mr. paine. just for the evening. mr. dulles. just for an evening? mr. paine. i don't know why it took so long but it did. i guess they weren't quite ready when i arrived. mr. liebeler. what else did you and oswald speak about during this evening, do you remember? mr. paine. after supper the conversation was translated into russian, and i wanted to gather marina's or get marina's corroboration of certain things he said about russia and there we found when she had differing opinions from him that he would not let her, he would slap her down verbally, and not let her express them or say--ruth told me later, he was calling her a fool, "you don't know anything." when i encountered this, i actually trusted marina to know--the questions i was asking, it seemed to me could be better answered by marina, so i wasn't paying very close attention to what he had said about that. mr. dulles. could you indicate on what points they seemed to differ or what points that he raised that irritated her or vice versa in their discussion about russia? you said he slapped her down. i was wondering on what kind of points he slapped her down. mr. paine. i have unfortunately tried to remember those points myself wishing, wondering whether hypnosis would bring it out of me as a tape recorder, or something. i was interested to know whether the russians were happy with their system, whether they felt the presence of the secret police, these are questions, i don't remember asking them, these are questions that i would have been interested in. mr. liebeler. do you remember any response either from marina or from oswald on these points? mr. paine. and i don't remember anything specific here. i just remember that i encountered too many points, where they apparently differed and, therefore, i had in mind i will just wait until she can learn english and we will get it from the horse's mouth. mr. liebeler. did you speak with oswald during this first meeting of the circumstances under which he met marina and married her in russia? mr. paine. i don't remember when i learned that. i think i learned it from ruth, who had spoken to marina on this subject. mr. liebeler. what did you learn? mr. paine. it may have been--i don't remember when it occurred, it may have been after the assassination, i may have read it in the paper or something. mr. liebeler. you don't remember any specific conversations with oswald on that subject? mr. paine. no; i don't. mr. liebeler. did lee oswald ever speak to you about his experience in the united states marine corps? mr. paine. he mentioned that his brother went in the marine corps and apparently enjoyed it and he had then, i think he said he had left school early to join it and i gathered, i thought to myself, he is expecting to find the joy his brother found there and he did not find it. he did not like the marine corps. mr. liebeler. did he tell you anything--pardon me. mr. paine. he did not mention that i can recall his exit from the marine corps. mr. liebeler. did he ever mention the name of governor connally in connection with his experiences in the marines? mr. paine. not that i remember. mr. dulles. did he ever mention the president in this or any other conversations? mr. paine. he mentioned the president only once that i can remember specifically; at the aclu meeting i think. mr. dulles. at the which? mr. paine. at the aclu meeting i took him to. he had mentioned, he thought president kennedy was doing quite a good job in civil rights, which was high praise coming from lee. mr. liebeler. did you have any discussion during this first meeting other than the discussion you have already mentioned concerning oswald's political beliefs? mr. paine. there, of course, i was interested in that subject, found we differed, and then in order to not wrestle with concepts or arguments that were unmanageably large, i tried to bring it down to more specific instances of how he would like to see the world be. mr. liebeler. how did you become aware of the fact that you differed, do you remember? mr. paine. i don't remember him making any bones about it the very first meeting. he told me he had become a marxist, in his own apartment there, that he had become a marxist by reading books and never having met a communist in this country. and he also then told me with a certain sadness or regret that he couldn't speak about political and economic subjects with his people, and fellows at work. (at this point senator cooper entered the hearing room.) mr. liebeler. you were going to mention specific areas of political discussion that you had with him. mr. paine. one other thing happened in this first half hour, the most fruitful half hour i had ever had with him. he had mentioned his employer. i probably asked him why did he leave this country to go to the soviet union, and his supreme theme in this regard is the exploitation of man by man, by which he means one man making a profit out of another man's labor, which is the normal employment situation in this country and to which he found--took, felt great resentment. he was aware that his employer made--he made more money for his employer than he was paid and specifically he mentioned how his employer of the engraving company goods and chattels that he had, that oswald didn't have, and with some specific resentment toward this employer, and i thought privately to myself that this resentment must show through if he ever meets his employer, it must sort of show through and that his employer wouldn't find that man very attractive. so this was his guiding theme. the reason it appears that this country, the system in this country had to go, had to be changed, was because of this supreme immoral way of managing affairs here, the exploitation of man by man which occurs in this country. we discussed about it occurring in the soviet union, the taxation of a man's labor, it occurs there also, and it appeared that only, he seemed to agree or sometimes i had to feed him, this conversation now is a later one, when we were talking about the specifics of exploitation of man by man, he agreed that the only difference was that in the soviet union it is a choice which is impersonal. the person who decides the man's wages and labor does not stand to gain by it whereas in this country the man who decides stands to gain by it. mr. dulles. the man who decides what, to employ the other man? mr. paine. no; what wage to pay him. mr. dulles. what wage to pay him? mr. paine. or what his return shall be. so that was the only--the most important, by far economic and political almost, let's call it economic doctrine he held. mr. liebeler. did he translate that economic doctrine to specific policies that he thought should be adopted or specific changes that should be made in the structure of this country? mr. paine. i had never, to my satisfaction, uncovered an area of progressive change that he would advocate. i asked him how did he think this change was going to come about, and he never answered that. and it seemed to me he was critical of almost everything that occurs in this country. so that he did not--i did not come to--did not know of anything in which he could see a progressive evolutionary change or policies that could be pushed in order to promote his ideals. representative ford. did he react academically, intellectually, violently or in what way did he express these views? mr. paine. well, he was quite dogmatic. first he wanted to put me in a category. in one of the later talks--when we first met he talked very freely and then i think as we made, in later conversations, i had to do more and more of it--make more and more effort to draw something out of him. in his later conversations, ruth found him so bothersome. mr. dulles. what was that word? mr. paine. bothersome, that she couldn't join the conversations. he would get too angry or too---- representative ford. he resented the probing or the questioning? mr. paine. no; he did not really resent the probing. for instance, take this issue of the exploitation of man by man. when we had boiled it down to this rather fine difference or technical difference that one was done by an impersonal body and one was done personal. mr. dulles. the soviet being the first and the american being the second? mr. paine. that is correct. that being then the crux of the matter and the reason this is the matter to be changed, if we were to follow the logic of the discussion, many arguments seemed to approach at that kind of a point where it is just logic or reason just didn't seem to work or hold water in this case, and we were left then with the starkness of his statement that this was an unforgivable moral sin, and he called it a moral sin or i questioned him to that effect, and so he thought it was a moral sin and he thought he was moral by adhering to that doctrine. representative ford. did he appear to enjoy these give and takes between you and himself or did he resent them as you proceeded in your discussions? mr. paine. i don't think he resented them. i noticed at times he got quite hot under the collar and i noticed that he was holding his, staying on a steady keel even better than i was, as though he had had considerable practice in sticking to, controlling himself, holding his position and not getting ruffled. representative ford. but in this process over a period of time during these four discussions he never deviated from his basic thesis? mr. paine. yes. of course, as i said to the others, i don't believe whether you were here, we only had about four talks altogether, and i later came to realize that if he were to have abandoned any one of these or have abandoned that one in particular, that would have undermined his whole philosophy, would humanly itself quite unreasonable to expect a fundamental exchange within an evening, just because of a logical compulsion or logical argument or something. mr. dulles. did you get the impression that he felt both systems, the american system and the soviet system involved the exploitation of man by man except it was a different exploiter? mr. paine. i gathered--i was irked because it seemed to me the difference that he accepted as a sufficient difference, the one in the soviet union was impersonal, that he was not, in other words--he admitted in the soviet union that the tax rate which was a general term then for the amount of money or reward that is not returned of what a man makes, was higher in the soviet union. he agreed that that could be true, and didn't seem to be dismayed at that. so i did not find criticism of the soviet union on that score. and in fact he didn't--i didn't discover in what ways he would like to try to change the soviet union except he didn't like the restrictions on his freedom there. neither did he see there was any connection between the restrictions on freedom there and the freedom we have here without control of how the relationship between men would be governed. mr. dulles. did he ever go into the question of the relative position of labor in the united states from the point of view of its freedom of bargaining and the control of labor in the soviet union? did that ever come up? mr. paine. no. i think, i can't remember whether it was a conversation i had directly with him or immediately after, i was following this idea that here we feel we have quite a different attitude about exploitation. somebody--he felt exploited and he thought all the working class was exploited, and he also thought they were brainwashed, and he also thought that churches were all alike, all the religious sects were the same and they were all apparatus of the power structure to maintain itself in power. when i pointed out that our church was financed by people like myself, when i contribute so many dollars to the church, he just shrugged his shoulders. it didn't--his views still stood and it also permitted him, i think, gave him the moral ground to dismiss my arguments because i was here just a product of my environment and i didn't know better and he had the word from the enlightenment, that he knew the truth and therefore i was just spouting the line that was fed to me by the power structure. mr. liebeler. i think you mentioned before that he had wanted to put you in a category, categorize you. did he indicate to you during that first conversation that he had concluded what category? mr. paine. no; it was over several conversations, i suppose it was the last conversation we had, he couldn't put me in a category and he named about seven or eight categories. mr. liebeler. what were they? mr. paine. i wasn't a bircher, i wasn't a liberal, a communist, a socialist, probably something to do with religion, something like that, atheist. mr. dulles. he didn't say whether you were a republican or democrat? mr. paine. i don't believe he was concerned about that. (laughter.) mr. paine. no; i am sure he would see no distinction between the two parties. mr. liebeler. so he concluded that he was unable to categorize you? mr. paine. yes. and i also felt as soon as he had realized that that he could then dismiss me as not something that functions in this world, not one of the forces or the opposing camps he has to contend with. mr. liebeler. you mentioned that your wife became bothered or oswald proved bothersome to your wife. could you tell us in what way oswald was bothersome to mrs. paine? mr. paine. well, i think one of the most outstanding was in this discussion of religions and i was trying to suggest that religions did embody many of the values of many people and so the conversation was trying to talk about those values quite apart from--i think the russian, i think marina's view of religion is quite primitive--never mind marina. ruth was bothered by his logic or argument being of no avail. she would be content, you know if he had followed the laws of debate or something, you present evidence and he presents opposite evidence and you try to answer, let one answer the other. but when he couldn't answer he would just state his belief and there he followed the communist line. he talked something about feudalism, or the church being more powerful in feudalism than it was today and he tried to explain why that was. i had then suggested that maybe science was instrumental as an alternative explanation to his explanation but instead of supporting further his view, which just didn't make sense to me, he just restated it. well, this kind of thing. mr. liebeler. upset your wife? mr. paine. yes; you just couldn't enter the conversation deeper. mr. liebeler. do you remember any other conversation, you and oswald had during this first evening that you met? the chairman. from the first day, are you going back to? mr. liebeler. yes. mr. paine. i think we probably spoke, i was trying still to find common ground with him, and i think we probably spoke critically of the far right. it even seems to me we may have mentioned walker. i had been bothered at the time that walker had--i guess it doesn't do any good to enter into the matter because i don't remember his response. mr. liebeler. did you mention walker's name during the first meeting? mr. paine. my memory is very foggy. but i would take it as--this was an impression. mr. liebeler. give us your best recollection, and i want to ask you again this was in early april , that you had this conversation, is that correct? mr. paine. it was that first meeting when we had them over to dinner and ruth can give you the date of that. mr. liebeler. for the benefit of the commission the record indicates it was about april , , that that occurred. tell us to the best of your recollection what the conversation about general walker was at that time? mr. paine. i think he had mentioned, a friend of ours had a german wife and she just achieved her citizenship papers, and this had been done at the ceremony and general walker had been invited to lead the singing, conducted by june davis who is somewhat old and slipped into error of calling him judge walker every once in a while, and it somewhat offended this friend of ours who was aware of why she liked this country, freedoms, and liberties and values that are expressed here. and she was rather sorry that walker should take it upon himself to define, to these stupid foreigners or these ignorant foreigners, what this country stands for. so i think i mentioned this episode to him. representative ford. him being oswald? mr. paine. oswald, and i think he smiled and nodded his assent. i don't think he said any--i don't think he made any important remarks about walker. mr. liebeler. do you remember anything that he said about walker at all? mr. paine. i think that is the only time, probably the only time we mentioned walker. mr. dulles. to refresh my recollection, there was about days or---- mr. liebeler. days before. mr. rankin. it was on the th. senator cooper. did he indicate in any way that he knew about general walker at that time? mr. paine. we seemed to agree at least superficially that in thinking the far right was unfortunate in its thoughts. mr. liebeler. did he say anything or do anything that would lead you to believe that he planned an attack on general walker? mr. paine. absolutely not. senator cooper. did he indicate in any way that he knew about general walker's activities and beliefs and position on public affairs? mr. paine. when i went to the aclu meeting he then got up, stood up and reported what had happened at the meeting of the far right which had occurred at convention hall the day before, u.n. day, they called it u.s. day, and i think walker had spoken then. from this i gathered that he was doing more or less the same thing--i thought he was, i didn't inquire how he spent his free time but i supposed he was going around to right wing groups being familiarizing himself for whatever his purposes were as i was. senator cooper. is that prior to the conversation you have talked about? mr. paine. no; this is after this conversation. senator cooper. what? mr. paine. this is after this conversation and i only had this, this was the only concrete evidence i had of how he spent, might have spent some of his time. it happened in the aclu meeting in late october. i suppose he was familiar with the right-wing groups and activities, and movements. and certainly familiar with walker; yes. mr. liebeler. confining the senator's question to the meeting in april, he didn't indicate in any way that he was familiar with walker's attitude or activities? mr. paine. he was familiar with walker. he knew who walker was, there was no doubt about that. we were talking about walker. representative ford. to find some common ground. mr. dulles. he didn't say he knew where walker lived or anything of that kind. that didn't come up? mr. liebeler. did he indicate any understanding to you at that april meeting of walker's attitude? mr. paine. i don't think he singled out walker as--i had the impression that he was quite familiar with walker and probably familiar with the names of various right-wing groups, shall we say, the christian science, not the christian science, i have forgotten the names of various organizations. mr. liebeler. did you relate to oswald this story about walker speaking at the meeting or the ceremony at which the immigrants were given their citizenship? mr. paine. i believe i did; yes. i believe that is what i said about walker at the time. mr. liebeler. what was his response to that? mr. paine. and i think he didn't say much. i think he smiled and nodded his head and did that kind of thing. he may have said just a few words. mr. liebeler. did you take it that oswald agreed with the views that you expressed? mr. paine. yes; i did. mr. liebeler. now, after this first meeting---- senator cooper. may i interrupt you again, i don't want to interrupt your train too much but i think you had said that during this conversation that you did have some discussion about right-wing groups. mr. paine. yes. senator cooper. and their position and activities, and so forth. in that discussion were individuals named or members assumed to be members of that group? (at this point representative ford left the hearing room.) mr. paine. it is possible we would have mentioned welch. i don't think i would have mentioned welch, i didn't know anything specifically about the john birch society at the time. senator cooper. was walker, he was talking about walker? mr. paine. he was the only one whose name was mentioned. senator cooper. are you sure whether or not oswald made any comment at any time during this conversation about walker? mr. paine. i don't remember, as i say, i remember it very vaguely but i remember telling that instance of his conducting that ceremony. but--and walker was known, i knew that walker was known to lee. and at least it achieved a certain feeling of similarity there, even though the similarity was only superficial in our views and feelings about it. i don't think he went on to describe any--it was mostly a ploy on my part to curry him or make him feel more at ease. mr. liebeler. it was clear to you at that time that both you and mr. oswald had an adverse view of general walker and did not think favorably of him, is that correct? mr. paine. that is correct. mr. liebeler. had you heard of lee oswald before you had occasion to go and pick him up that time and bring him to your house for dinner? mr. paine. yes; i heard about him as soon as ruth had been invited to this party back in february, whenever it was. mr. liebeler. what was the basis of your wife's interest in the oswalds and of your interest in the oswalds? mr. paine. everett glover invited us knowing that ruth was studying russian and that--asked us if we would be interested in meeting this--they were presented to us as an american who had defected to russia and decided he didn't like it and came back and brought a russian wife with him. would we like to meet these people? yes, that sounded interesting. mr. dulles. was this the fort worth group? mr. paine. no; this is in dallas. mr. dulles. dallas. mr. liebeler. after this first meeting with lee oswald when was the next time that you saw him? mr. paine. that would be after he returned, when marina was living with us, when he returned, we thought he returned from looking for work from houston but apparently it had been his trip to mexico. mr. liebeler. tell us the circumstances of how you met him and what happened at that time? mr. dulles. could we have the date of this? mr. liebeler. this would have been what, early october or late september of ? mr. paine. i think marina was there about a week, at least a week before he came, if she came the th of september, which comes to my mind, it would be in the early part of october. i would normally appear at the house on fridays, sometimes occasionally on sundays, i would come on friday evening, and---- mr. liebeler. you were separated from your wife at this time? mr. paine. that is correct. mr. liebeler. and you had your own apartment at arlington, tex.? mr. paine. grand prairie. mr. liebeler. grand prairie. mr. paine. i don't particularly remember, the occasions don't stand out one from another. the first two meetings, i think were before he found work, and at first i talked a little bit about the problem of finding work with him. mr. dulles. these were the first two meetings after the preliminary meeting? mr. paine. yes. while marina was staying with us. mr. liebeler. go through your testimony, mr. paine and tell us as best you can recall how many times you saw oswald after his return from new orleans, up until the time of his assassination? mr. paine. i think i saw him every weekend on friday; i think he was there except for the weekend, before the assassination, exceptional. i would arrive on tuesday or wednesdays and, of course, he was not there and there was ruth and marina. i would simply come in on sunday when he was generally there. also, i quite specifically remember on the long holiday he had some period there, i don't remember, what celebration it is, when bell did not have that day off and he did, so he was there that morning, a monday morning on that date of that holiday, perhaps you can feed me the date. mr. liebeler. would that be november th, th and th, ? mr. paine. i think that is right. mr. liebeler. was that the last time you saw him? mr. paine. that would be correct; yes. mr. liebeler. now, tell us the circumstances about how oswald arrived in irving upon his return from new orleans as best you can recall it, what happened, what was said. mr. paine. i must not have been there when the phone call arrived but i think ruth reported it to me so that ruth said that marina was very pleased, very happy to receive this call, a surprise or something. i think i had at one or two times seen her answer a call from him, and i observed she was glad to have this call from him but i wasn't there when he first called, i don't believe. mr. dulles. was that the call from new orleans to irving? mr. paine. no; that is the call from somewhere in dallas to irving asking if he could come out. i don't know of a call from new orleans to irving. mr. liebeler. did he subsequently come out to the house in irving that weekend? mr. paine. then he came out that weekend. i suppose he came out on a friday and it was probably before i got over there, i arrived about six. mr. liebeler. do you remember if he was there when you arrived home that weekend? mr. paine. i don't remember that. i think he was there; yes. i think he was there because otherwise i would have seen that meeting. i did not see them first embrace each other. mr. liebeler. did he say anything to you about where he had been? mr. paine. no; i thought i knew where he had been. ruth had told me he was looking for work in houston. mr. liebeler. ruth had told you that before this date? mr. paine. i don't know. mr. liebeler. there was no conversation among any one at that time about oswald having been in mexico. mr. paine. no; it was a complete surprise to ruth and myself. when we saw this letter where he mentioned having been to mexico, ruth took it as an example of his colossal lying. mr. liebeler. tell us about this letter, what were the circumstances surrounding that? mr. paine. he had written a letter using her typewriter and her desk to a party i don't know. mr. dulles. that is ruth's typewriter and desk? mr. paine. ruth's typewriter and he left the rough draft of the letter on her desk, not folded, just out there on her desk, in english. ruth had given me the impression it was there for a couple of days. actually it was there for a day and a half or so. i think he wrote it on saturday and we then moved the furniture on sunday night. mr. dulles. this would be saturday, november what? mr. paine. this might be that holiday november. i don't remember for sure about that. mr. liebeler. mr. paine, you and i discussed this question yesterday and i asked you whether you recalled seeing oswald again after you had discussed this letter with your wife. what did you tell me? mr. paine. i thought probably not but we figured out the dates from my probable reaction that i read that letter and then had i encountered him again i would have had a different, i would have had questions or feelings or something in response to this letter and since i didn't encounter him with those feelings i must not have seen him again. mr. liebeler. so that would place the date of your seeing this letter as approximately shortly after the weekend of november , , and ? mr. paine. that is correct. mr. liebeler. i show you commission exhibit and ask you if you ever saw the original of this letter and if you did to tell us the circumstances surrounding that event. mr. paine. yes; i saw this letter. i remembered most of the contents. i apparently didn't remember that he didn't use his real name, i was reading something else at the time and ruth handed me this letter and it took a while--i didn't read it as thoroughly as i could have. mr. dulles. could you tell us just briefly the contents of this letter just for the record? mr. liebeler. yes, sir; apparently it is a draft of a letter that oswald wrote in his own hand. the commission does have a copy of the actual letter, and it was a letter to the russian embassy, i believe in washington. mr. dulles. the russian embassy in washington? mr. liebeler. yes, sir; in which he tells them about his trip to mexico and his political activity on behalf of the fair play for cuba committee. i believe it includes the words "notorious fbi," which is no longer interested in his political activity in texas. mr. dulles. was this letter ever sent? mr. liebeler. i believe it was. mr. dulles. there was a letter sent like this? you said you had the original? mr. rankin. it is in evidence. mr. dulles. what was sent, a letter like this? mr. rankin. a redraft. mr. dulles. a redraft. mr. paine. typewritten copy. mr. liebeler. this letter refers to the fact that oswald had been in mexico, does it not? mr. paine. yes; it tells of his visit to the cuban consul and the soviet embassy there. mr. liebeler. did your wife call that to your attention when she showed you this letter? mr. paine. we took it, she took it, and i likewise took it as somewhat of a fabricated story, i didn't suppose he had been down to mexico. i read "dear sirs" there, i read "dear lisa." i thought he was writing to a friend, and ruth pointed out to me after i had given the letter back to her, ruth was somewhat irked that i didn't take more interest in the thing. i think i might have--no, i don't know as i might have since i might have dismissed it as a lie but anyway ruth was irked and didn't show it to me again and i asked her now what was in that letter that i didn't see and she didn't tell me. mr. liebeler. this was all prior to the assassination? mr. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. what did she say to you? mr. paine. ruth was quite bothered by that letter, and apparently had--apparently i hadn't really taken it in. i said, "the heck with it. yes; it is a fantastic lie, isn't that amazing that he will fabricate such stories here." mr. liebeler. what did she say? mr. paine. no; she said--she approached me and said, "i never realized how much he could lie" or that he was a liar or something like that, and "i want you to read this letter." so i put aside the thing i was reading in which i was more interested and read most of the letter, not the latter part about having used another name. and then i thought it was too personal, "dear lisa," so i thought he was telling her, being rather braggadocio telling about his exploits which were rather imaginary and i put it out of my mind. then later ruth asked me what did i think about it---- mr. liebeler. this was before the assassination that she asked you this? mr. paine. i think so. mr. liebeler. was it later the same day? mr. paine. no; i think it probably was another day but i don't remember. mr. liebeler. what did she say? mr. paine. well, she was--i think i said, "let me see that letter again," and she said, "no; if you didn't absorb it, never mind." so, heck, if she felt that way, i wasn't going to bother. my first impulse was to throw it aside and pay no attention to it. if she felt that way i continued to do it. mr. liebeler. who brought the letter up the second time, did ruth bring it up? mr. paine. yes; ruth brought it up. mr. liebeler. do you remember whether there was any event that caused her to bring it up or did she bring it up out of the clear blue sky or what? mr. paine. i don't remember having slept with her but i have the impression she brought it up while i was in bed anyway. so it might have been, just be, i was staying late that night also, i don't know. mr. liebeler. did you know that oswald had given marina a charm made out of a mexican peso at the time that you read this letter? mr. paine. no; i didn't. mr. liebeler. did you learn about that at any time prior to the assassination? mr. paine. not that i remember. mr. liebeler. did you note the fact that oswald had a record of mexican music in your home prior to the assassination? mr. paine. i didn't know that. mr. liebeler. did you subsequently learn that oswald had given marina this charm made from a mexican peso? mr. paine. yes; i did. mr. liebeler. under what circumstances? mr. paine. the fbi came out and they were wondering whether oswald had used my shop to mount his sight so we went out to look at the shop and tools and we looked at the threading tap and what not, the threading tap looked as though it hadn't been used but the drill press seemed to have little chips of metal on it and then ruth remembered that he had gone in there and used the drill press to have drilled out this coin which marina put around her neck, and i think she then mentioned it was a peso. but it hadn't sunk into ruth with significance of its being a peso, hadn't impressed itself upon her prior to the assassination. mr. liebeler. so that neither you nor your wife believed that oswald had been in mexico prior to the assassination? mr. paine. you will have to ask ruth about that. that was my impression he hadn't been there. mr. liebeler. your wife hadn't said anything to you that indicated that she believed it? mr. paine. no. mr. liebeler. now, you mentioned before the fact that you had gone with oswald to a meeting of the american civil liberties union, is that correct? mr. paine. that is correct. mr. liebeler. when did you do that? mr. paine. that was the day after stevenson had been stoned. mr. liebeler. would you tell us the circumstances of that event? mr. paine. that was a friday i had intended to go, i had also invited frank krystinik for his first visit, i had been telling him about the aclu. so i invited lee to come thinking it might be part--i was not really talking to him very much, but just being civil but i thought it might be helpful for him to see something in which i was interested, that i might find some way that he might find an interest, something constructive to do. so, i took him in my car, he and i alone, and on the way, which takes about minutes, described the aclu to him, and he didn't know about it, and described its purpose. then we went to the meeting which was a meeting, first we saw a movie called "suspect," i think it was showing how a candidate lost, who had won handily in a previous election, lost after a smear campaign in washington state, which it had been brought out that his wife had once been a communist party member. i didn't think the movie showed very much, but the meeting, the discussion following the movie, there were two people who gave little talks about the movie and the principles involved afterward, this--do you want to break? mr. liebeler. who went with you in the car to the meeting, just you and mr. oswald or was mr. krystinik with you? mr. paine. no; krystinik came in his own car, so just lee and myself. mr. liebeler. go ahead with your story. mr. paine. i thought the meeting was conducted in a manner that illustrated its own beliefs. one of the things said was that the birchers must not be considered anti-semitic, anti-semites because they are also birchers. lee at this point got up, speaking loud and clear and coherently, saying that, reporting that, he had been to this meeting of the right-wing group the night before or two nights before and he refuted this statement, saying names and saying how that people on the platform speaking for the birch society had said anti-semitic things and also anti-catholic statements or spoke against the pope or something. mr. liebeler. do you remember what oswald said? mr. paine. no; i don't remember. he said something very similar to, "i disagree with what had just been said," and i do remember that it contained both some corroboration of his points of view. there had been some kind of an anti-semitic statement and criticism of the pope. mr. liebeler. oswald seemed to make a convincing argument and seemed to make sense? mr. paine. that was good speaking. it was out of keeping with the mood of the meeting and nobody followed it up in a similar manner but i think it was accepted as--it made sense; yes. mr. liebeler. did anybody else say anything in response to oswald's remarks? mr. paine. i think not. mr. liebeler. what happened then later on in the meeting? mr. paine. later on in the meeting, when the meeting broke up, people clustered into discussion groups, and frank, i told frank, who was a colleague at work, frank krystinik, about lee and marina, and so of course he immediately came to defend free enterprise and what not in opposition to this fellow i told him about, and i left the discussion at that point, thinking i knew the kind of discussion it would be. it was a discussion between three people, a more elderly man whom i probably thought was a member of the aclu, and frank and lee. mr. liebeler. did you hear any part of the discussion? mr. paine. i didn't hear any part of the discussion. mr. liebeler. did you subsequently discuss it with either oswald or krystinik? mr. paine. and in the car going home, lee asked me if i knew this man he had been talking to, this older man he had been talking to, and i think he said that the man seemed to be friendly to cuba or rather he said, "do you think that man is a communist?" and i said, "no." and then he said something, "i think he is." then i asked him why and i think he said something in regard to cuba or sympathy with cuba, and then i thought to myself, well, that is rather feeble evidence for proving a communist. but he seemed to have the attitude of, felt he wanted to meet that man again and was pleased he had met him. i thought to myself if that is the way he has to meet his communists, he has not yet found the communist group in dallas. mr. liebeler. was there a communist group in dallas, to your knowledge? mr. paine. not to my knowledge. mr. liebeler. did oswald ever speak of a communist group in dallas? mr. paine. no; he did not. i had the impression, this i remember clearly that he had not found the group with similar feelings to his. i then asked frank in regard to, i can't remember when i asked frank but i asked frank about the same conversation and whether he thought that this third man was a communist. and he thought no, he thought the other man was a better--frank almost got into a fight with lee, and the other man was more receptive or didn't argue with him, or drew him out better, frank used the word, i think. mr. liebeler. drew oswald out better? mr. paine. drew oswald out better. but he didn't gather the impression that he was favoring castro or cuba. mr. liebeler. what else did you and oswald say on the way home after the meeting? mr. paine. so i was describing to him the purpose of the aclu, and he said specifically, i can remember this, after i had described it and said that i was a member, that he couldn't join an organization like that, it wasn't political and he said something or responded in some manner, which indicated surprise that i could be concerned about joining an organization simply to defend, whose purpose it is, shall we say, to defend, free speech, free speech, per se, your freedom as well as mine. he was aware of enjoying his freedom to speak but he didn't seem to be aware of the more general principle of freedom to speak for everyone which has value in itself. and i think it took him by surprise that a person could be concerned about a value like that rather than political objective of some sort, and this was, struck me as a new idea and it struck me that he must never have met people who paid more than lip service, he wasn't familiar with the ways of expressing this value. mr. dulles. did you say anything to him about the activities of the civil liberties union in connection with the defense of people accused of crimes under certain conditions? mr. paine. yes; i am sure i told him that it came to the defense of all people who didn't seem to be receiving adequate help when it seemed to be an issue involving the bill of rights. i was then--that was a pang of sorrow that occurred after the assassination when i realized that he had then subsequently, a fortnight later, joined the aclu, and still didn't quite seem to perceive its purpose, and then i realized--i had also perceived earlier that he was still a young fellow and i had been expecting rather a lot of him, when i first approached meeting him; this man had been to russia and had been back and i had been--met some others who had been around the world like that and they are powerful people. mr. liebeler. did oswald impress you that way? mr. paine. and he did not impress me that way; no. mr. liebeler. did oswald respond to your, or did you request oswald or did you suggest to him that he join the aclu? mr. paine. no; i don't think i was eager to have him join until he knew what was what about it. mr. liebeler. during the time after the aclu meeting did oswald say anything about his discussion with mr. krystinik? mr. paine. no; i don't believe so. mr. liebeler. did you subsequently discuss that with mr. krystinik? mr. paine. yes; i did. mr. liebeler. what did you say and what did he say? mr. paine. he told me how he had argued, that he had pointed out that he had employed a few people himself, he works at bell but on the side, at night he had done a little extra business and had employed other people, and had to receive from them more than he paid them, that he received from their labor, for their product, more than he paid them but that he created work and jobs, and he was fully--and he was ready to defend his way of that activity and was presenting that against lee's criticism and apparently encountered the same kind of nonsequitur response or no response from him or lee's response didn't--lee presented his opposing view against it without any issue. mr. liebeler. you mentioned that krystinik and oswald had almost gotten into a fight, did krystinik tell you that? mr. paine. i think it was frank who told me that. mr. liebeler. can you tell us more about that? mr. paine. i am sure frank would not haul off and slug him, but just frank said he got pretty mad at this. i think frank was using that expression to me only, you know, saying how irked he was at lee. mr. liebeler. he didn't indicate that oswald had threatened any physical violence toward him in connection with the argument, did he? mr. paine. oh, no; i think lee knows how to keep his temper, knows how to control himself. senator cooper. might i ask a question at this time? earlier you talked about your, i think your, first meeting with oswald and your conversation with him? mr. paine. yes. senator cooper. you said, you talked about, the fact that subsequently your wife was bothered by his attitude? mr. paine. she was bothered by---- senator cooper. i am not going into that. now, you have talked about this conversation with mr. krystinik? mr. paine. krystinik. senator cooper. in which they reached some point in which further discussion was not, if not impossible, was at least difficult between them? from these experiences you had was there a situation, that after some arguments or discussion of economic or political issues, he would reach a point in which he relied upon certain fixed positions that he held about which he would not admit of any further discussion or argument? mr. paine. that is correct. he would just present his dogmatic view and then one was at loss to find any way to get off that impasse. senator cooper. when he was questioned about that view or when an attempt was made to argue that view with him, would he then become angry or disturbed in any way? mr. paine. the time that i reported i was angry and i noticed he was holding his temper pretty well and i wasn't going to let him hold his temper better than mine. senator cooper. did you see indication---- mr. paine. i saw he was angry, his hands trembled a little bit. senator cooper. all right. mr. paine. but he was dogged, i think he was practiced or skilled or took pride in this was a kind of struggle or fight that he would do this, and he would do it for a long time. mr. liebeler. clench his fists and put them together? mr. paine. no; it was expressing this as a mood. mr. liebeler. he would hold himself back? mr. paine. he would oppose himself to you steadily, and it seemed to me he liked to put himself in a position of belligerence or opposition, and he would just hold his ground or something, was accustomed to doing that and expected to stick it out. it reminded me a little bit of lawrence of arabia when lawrence held the match that burned down to his finger and the fellows asked him what is the trick? he said no trick you just learn how to stand the pain. senator cooper. i have to go and i would like to ask a few questions. i ask these questions to get a certain background of his views which you have said he finally came to some fixed position which he would hold and would not move and there was no brooking of real argument on that position. you said earlier in response to a question by counsel that he did not believe there was any possibility of any evolutionary progress in this country, at least upon this issue of economic change. mr. paine. this he never said that specifically. but i would ask him what policy should we take or i was trying to find if he didn't have some avenue of following a policy in this country. senator cooper. did you direct questions to him which showed some evolution in our own economic ideas and theories which he either refused to accept---- mr. paine. yes; i did. i mean i tried to show him how labor and management, first labor had a right, i was criticizing labor for the rigid position it is getting us into now---- senator cooper. he would not accept that idea of evolution? mr. paine. i think he did not accept it; yes. he didn't have patience with it. senator cooper. is that also a tenet of the communist dogma, do you know? mr. paine. i don't believe, i don't know whether you can say there is a single communist dogma of that sort. i suppose there are some groups that feel that way and others don't. senator cooper. did he indicate any other way in which he thought that economic change might come about in the united states? mr. paine. he did not indicate or reveal to me how he thought it would come about and i on several occasions felt by his, perceived from his attitude or felt impelled by his attitude to say that the values that i held dear were diminished in a situation of violence, to which he remained silent and i took it as disagreement. but i don't remember if he had said that. senator cooper. he remained silent when you spoke about that? mr. paine. when i said i was opposed to violence or said, why, when i said that he remained silent and i took it---- senator cooper. you took it that he disagreed in any way by your statement? mr. paine. well, just by the way he would sort of withdraw. senator cooper. he did not agree with your position? mr. paine. he did not agree; no. senator cooper. that violence was unacceptable as a means of change? mr. paine. that is right, and i don't think he perceived also, was a war of the kind of values that i am--tolerance, for instance seems to me disappears when strained situations---- senator cooper. did you discuss at least the kind of economic changes that had occurred in russia by means of violence? mr. paine. no; i was trying to find out whether he thought it was going to come by revolution or not and he never did say, i never got an answer as to how he thought this change was going to come. he did not reveal constructive, or from my point of view, constructive effort to make. senator cooper. did he ever discuss the revolution in russia where by means of violence the change had come about? mr. paine. he did not. that would have been the kind of argument i would have accepted, a normal kind that you would have accepted it as evidence here is the normal way to produce it, but he never said that. senator cooper. did he ever say any way in which he was expecting russia or any other country to indicate that he felt the use of violence had produced good? mr. paine. no. as i say he did not--i would have accepted that argument as a debating argument but he didn't bring it up. senator cooper. that is all. mr. dulles. did he say or did you get the impression that he felt that violence was the only way to improve things, let's say, in the united states? mr. paine. i felt he was so disgusted with the whole system that he didn't see a way that was worthwhile fussing around trying to modify the situation. mr. dulles. other than violence or he didn't go that far? mr. paine. he didn't mention advocating violence or didn't say anything in regard to violence but he did seem to me he didn't see dismissed as trivial, no difference between the parties so why join one party or another. they were all the same. churches--there is no avenue out that way. education--there is nothing there. so that he never revealed to me any constructive way that wasn't violent. mr. dulles. did he think that communism was different from capitalism in this respect? (short recess.) the chairman. all right, gentlemen, the commission will be in order. mr. dulles. what i was getting at with my question was as to whether he thought that probably violence was necessary with respect to both systems to achieve the millennium that he sought or did he think it was just necessary with regard to the american system. mr. paine. he didn't reveal to me to my satisfaction what criticism he found of the soviet union. he had indicated he didn't like it. but i wasn't aware that he was proposing to change that system also in some way. neither did he ever speak, he never spoke to me, in a way that i could see a paradise, see his paradise. he spoke only, he was opposed to exploitation of man by man. that was his motivating power. (at this point senator cooper left the hearing room.) mr. liebeler. did oswald indicate to you in any way that he had been present at the right-wing rally that was held in dallas the night before stevenson appeared in dallas? mr. paine. he indicated that at the aclu meeting. mr. liebeler. did he say he had met anybody there? mr. paine. not that i recall, no. mr. liebeler. did he mention speaking to anyone at that meeting? mr. paine. no. mr. liebeler. did he tell you whether or not he was at the stevenson meeting itself? mr. paine. i guess i didn't ask him that. i remember asking myself subsequently what was the answer to that question and i couldn't answer it then and i can't answer it now. mr. liebeler. you have no recollection of his mentioning it at all? mr. paine. no, i don't remember what--i think i assumed that he had but---- mr. liebeler. you assumed that he had been at the stevenson affair? mr. paine. i think i assumed that. mr. liebeler. do you have any basis for that assumption? mr. paine. there had been some discussion in the aclu, some other people had gotten up and had spoken of that awful last night, i guess, this was the previous night, that awful time and i think he seemed to nod his assent. that was my---- mr. liebeler. you inferred from that that he had possibly been present at the stevenson meeting? mr. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. there was no other basis for your assumption in that regard? mr. paine. that is right. mr. liebeler. on the weekend of november , , and , do you recall when you came to your house in irving? mr. paine. well, i would come out regularly on friday after cashing my check at the bank. mr. liebeler. do you remember coming on friday evening on the th of november? mr. paine. i don't remember any break in that habit. mr. liebeler. do you recall whether or not oswald was present at your home on the friday evening november , ? mr. paine. no; i don't specifically remember that. mr. liebeler. you don't remember one way or the other? mr. paine. that is right. mr. liebeler. were you at the house on saturday? november th? mr. paine. i was at the house probably on saturday and certainly on sunday. i think that weekend i remember stepping over him as he sat in front of the tv, stepping past, one of these things laying on the floor and thinking to myself for a person who has a business to do he certainly can waste the time. by business i mean some kind of activity and keeping track of right-wing causes and left-wing causes or something. i supposed that he spent his time as i would be inclined to spend more of my time if i had it, trying to sense the pulse of various groups in the dallas area. mr. liebeler. do you know what oswald did on saturday morning, november , ? mr. paine. no. mr. liebeler. did you know that he was taken by your wife to apply for a driver's license and take a driver's license test on that morning? mr. paine. she told me sometime subsequently that she had taken him for--wait. i remember the incident that he had arrived on a saturday morning at the drivers' license bureau, stood in line for a long time but they cut off the line at o'clock and he did not stay there long enough for him to get his driver's license student permit. mr. liebeler. was this at this time or would that have been another time. let me help you. mr. paine. i don't remember that. mr. liebeler. would it help to refresh your recollection if i suggested that november th was a local election day in dallas, i believe? mr. paine. i think that is an election that i have forgotten. mr. liebeler. you have no knowledge of oswald's activities on that day, no direct personal knowledge? mr. paine. it doesn't, it didn't cue me in, so i don't---- mr. liebeler. did you ever see oswald drive a car? mr. paine. no; i did not. mr. liebeler. did you ever discuss with him driving an automobile or obtaining a driver's license? mr. paine. i probably said it would be well to get a driver's license. it would be well--i probably said, "you probably need a car to get around here." in other words, effectively; no. mr. liebeler. did he ever indicate to you that he planned to purchase an automobile? mr. paine. i bought this second-hand car for $ . mr. liebeler. what kind of a car is that? mr. paine. that is a oldsmobile. mr. liebeler. when did you buy it? mr. paine. i bought it while they were there, while marina was staying with us, which was sometime in november. either october or november, probably the early part of november. they went out to admire the car. $ , i suppose, didn't seem out of their reach then. mr. liebeler. did he indicate to you that he was thinking---- mr. paine. therefore, i think ruth, they went out to admire the car and, of course, i was thinking that it, this might make it appear to them that the car was within reach, and driving was something to be sought. mr. liebeler. in addition to the oldsmobile that you mentioned, you personally own a citroen automobile and your wife owns a station wagon, is that correct? mr. paine. that is correct. mr. liebeler. you never saw oswald drive any of those cars at any time? mr. paine. that is correct. i had keys to both of my cars so he could not have driven them without---- mr. liebeler. without your knowledge? mr. paine. or else somehow getting another. he would have to--you can, i have driven my car when i have broken the key. mr. liebeler. but you never saw him drive it? mr. paine. i never saw him drive it. mr. liebeler. did your wife ever tell you that she had seen oswald driving a car or she was trying to teach him how to drive a car? mr. paine. yes; she did. mr. liebeler. did she indicate what proficiency he had at operating an automobile? mr. paine. she thought he was, she observed how much one has to learn in order to drive a car. he had a difficulty in some manner, perhaps it was in judging when to turn the wheel when parking. and i think she said he over controlled it, turned too far. mr. liebeler. looking back now on all your conversations with oswald, after his return from new orleans, did you have any discussions with him other than the ones you have already mentioned in your previous testimony? mr. dulles. could i ask a question before you answer this question. about the car, did you get any idea as to why he didn't want to drive a car or to have a car, did he think this would make him a capitalist or anything of that kind? did anything come up in the conversations with regard to his not having a car or not driving a car? mr. paine. no. i gathered that was slightly embarrassing not to be able to drive a car. mr. dulles. all right. thank you. mr. liebeler. can you recall any conversations that you had with oswald that you think would be helpful for us to know other than the ones you have already mentioned? mr. paine. i don't recall one now. mr. liebeler. did he ever indicate to you any specific hostility toward president kennedy? mr. paine. i think at this aclu meeting he mentioned this specifically that he thought kennedy had done a good job in civil rights. that was it--generally my impression was that he liked--he didn't like anybody, but he disliked kennedy least as you might go right from kennedy. mr. liebeler. to the best of your recollection, was that the only time he mentioned president kennedy specifically? mr. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. did he ever mention governor connally? mr. paine. not to my knowledge. mr. liebeler. did he ever indicate any hostility toward the united states other than the hostility that you have previously testified to after his return from the soviet union and his general dislikes of the american system? mr. paine. that is right. just his general dislike. mr. liebeler. did he ever indicate to you a desire to return to the soviet union? mr. paine. no; i think when i learned, i don't know when it was that he had planned to go back there that it was a surprise to me. mr. liebeler. when did you learn that he planned to go back there? mr. paine. that was probably subsequent; yes, that was certainly subsequent to november . mr. dulles. or to go to cuba? mr. paine. or to go to cuba, yes. mr. liebeler. when that was spoken---- mr. paine. i remember now, first it was mentioned could he be connected with a communist plot and there i thought of russian communists and that didn't seem to ring a bell. mr. liebeler. when was that mentioned? mr. paine. this was after the assassination, a day or two later. then when the fair play for cuba committee was mentioned, that was the first i had heard of it except for his mentioning cuba to this man at the aclu meeting referring to it in the car to me. mr. liebeler. he never told you that he had been active in the fair play for cuba committee? mr. paine. that is correct, that was the only recollection i could remember his ever having mentioned cuba. mr. liebeler. now yesterday, we asked you about an incident or spoke to you about an incident that happened in september of when you went into your garage to use some tools, your garage in irving, tex. would you tell us about that? mr. paine. i don't remember whether the date was september. i remember that was the date they came back from new orleans and i do remember that my wife asked me to unpack some of their heavy things from their car. i only recall unpacking duffelbags but any other package, that was the heaviest thing there and they were easy also. mr. liebeler. you must have moved the duffelbags from the station wagon into the garage? mr. paine. that is right. i unpacked whatever was remaining in the station wagon to the garage. so sometime later, i do remember moving about this package which, let's say, was a rifle, anyway it was a package wrapped in a blanket. the garage was kind of crowded and i did have my tools in there and i had to move this package several times in order to make space to work, and the final time i put it on the floor underneath the saw where the handsaw would be casting dust on it and i was a little embarrassed to be putting his goods on the floor, but i didn't suppose, the first time i picked it up i thought it was camping equipment. i said to myself they don't make camping equipment of iron pipes any more. mr. liebeler. why did you say that to yourself when you picked up the package? mr. paine. i had, my experience had been, my earliest camping equipment had been a tent of iron pipes. this somehow reminded me of that. i felt a pipe with my right hand and it was iron, that is to say it was not aluminum. mr. liebeler. how did you make that distinction? mr. paine. by the weight of it, and by the, i suppose the moment of inertia, you could have an aluminum tube with a total weight massed in the center somehow but that would not have had the inertia this way. mr. dulles. you were just feeling this through the blanket though? mr. paine. i was also aware as i was moving his goods around, of his rights to privacy. so i did not feel--i had to move this object, i wasn't thinking very much about it but it happens that i did think a little bit about it or before i get on to the working with my tools i thought, an image came to mind. mr. liebeler. did you think there was more than one tent pole in the package or just one tent pole? mr. paine. as i say, i moved it several times, and i think i thought progressively each time. i moved it twice. it had three occasions. and the first one was an iron, thought of an iron pipe and then i have drawn, i drew yesterday, a picture of the thing i had in mind. then in order to fill out the package i had to add another object to it and there i added again i was thinking of camping equipment, and i added a folding shovel such as i had seen in the army, a little spade where the blade folds back over the handle. this has the trouble that this blade was too symmetrical i disposed to the handle and to fit the package the blade had to be off center, eccentric to the handle. also, i had my vision of the pipe. it had an iron pipe about inches long with a short section of pipe going off degrees. no words here, it just happened that i did have this image in my mind of trying to fill up that package in the back burner of my mind. mr. liebeler. the witness yesterday did draw a picture of what he visualized as being in the blanket, and i will offer it in evidence later on in the hearing. how long was this package in your estimation? mr. paine. well, yesterday we measured the distance that i indicated with my hand, i think it came to inches. mr. liebeler. approximately how thick would you say it was? mr. paine. i picked it up each time and i put it in a position and then i would recover it from that position, so each time i moved it with the same position with my hands in the same position. my right hand, the thumb and forefinger could go around the pipe, and my left hand grabbed something which was an inch and a half inside the blanket or something thick. mr. liebeler. did it occur to you at that time that there was a rifle in the package? mr. paine. that did not occur to me. mr. liebeler. you never at any time looked inside the package? mr. paine. that is correct. i could easily have felt the package but i was aware that of respecting his privacy of his possessions. mr. liebeler. were you subsequently advised of the probability or the possibility that there had been a rifle wrapped in that package? mr. paine. when i arrived on friday afternoon we went into the garage, i think ruth, marina and the policeman, and i am not sure it was the first time, but there we saw this blanket was on the floor below the bandsaw---- (at this point representative ford entered the hearing room.) mr. paine. and a rifle was mentioned and then it rang a bell, the rifle answered, fitted the package that i had been trying to fit these unsuccessfully. it had never resolved itself, this shovel and pipe didn't fit in there. mr. liebeler. and it seemed to you likely that there had in fact been a rifle in the package? mr. paine. that answered it. mr. liebeler. can you tell us when the last time was that you saw that package in the garage prior to the assassination? mr. paine. no; i am afraid i can't. mr. dulles. do we have the date of the first time in the record? mr. liebeler. yes; i think the witness testified it was either late september or early october of . i show you a blanket which has been marked as commission exhibit and ask you if that is the blanket you saw in the garage? mr. paine. this looks a little cleaner, of course. i was there in the night, and i also put the thing on the floor thinking it was rustic equipment and that sawdust wouldn't hurt it. i also was concerned with moisture. this is very close to what i remember. yesterday in my testimony i had a desire to add blue to the colors of brown and green. last night i remembered that thanksgiving weekend i had bought another rustic blanket of a similar nature which had blue in it, which is why i tried to get blue into the blanket. mr. liebeler. are you able to say at this time positively that this was the blanket that you saw in your garage and that you moved on various occasions in october and possibly november of ? mr. paine. i didn't notice the particular design so i can't--it is a very good representative of what i remember. mr. liebeler. do you remember the texture of the blanket? mr. paine. the texture. i felt it, of course, these several times and the texture is the same. mr. liebeler. was the package wrapped securely when it was in your garage? mr. paine. i had the impression--yes, it was. the whole package was stiff. there was no shaking of the parts, and i had the impression it was wrapped with about two strings. mr. liebeler. i now show you commission exhibit , which is a rifle that was found in the texas school book depository building, and ask you if you at any time ever saw this rifle prior to november , ? mr. paine. i did not. mr. liebeler. have you seen it since that time and prior to yesterday? mr. paine. i saw a rifle being shown to marina in an adjoining cubicle with a glass wall between us. mr. liebeler. when was that? mr. paine. that was the night of the d. mr. liebeler. have you ever seen this leather strap that is attached to the rifle. mr. paine. i have not seen that strap. mr. liebeler. have you ever seen a strap like this strap? mr. paine. or anything like it. mr. liebeler. have you any idea where this strap could have come from? mr. paine. i don't. mr. dulles. may i ask in that connection, was this just loosely wound up in that blanket or was there some string around it or---- mr. paine. i had the impression there were about two strings on the thing. it wouldn't--also, i didn't think you could look into the package readily. mr. dulles. you would have to take something off, some string or something in order to get into the package? mr. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. i now show you commission exhibit which is a replica of a sack which was prepared by authorities in dallas, and i also show you another sack which is commission exhibit , and ask you if you have ever seen in or around your garage in irving, tex., any sacks similar to those? mr. paine. no; i haven't. mr. liebeler. have you seen any paper in your garage in irving prior to november , , or at any other place, at your home in irving, tex., that is similar to the paper of which those sacks are made? mr. paine. no, i haven't; we have some rugs, most of them are wrapped in polyethylene. i couldn't be sure that one of the smaller ones wasn't wrapped in paper. to my knowledge, we had no free kraft paper of that size. mr. liebeler. will you examine the tape on the sacks and tell me whether you have any tape similar to that or whether you have seen any tape similar to that in your garage before november , ? mr. paine. we have some tape in a drawer of my desk at the house, my recollection is that the tape is a -inch tape, gum tape. mr. liebeler. and the tape on the sack appears to be three? mr. paine. this is -inch. mr. liebeler. did you ever observe in your garage any scraps of paper or scraps of tape similar to the materials used to construct those sacks? mr. paine. no, i did not. mr. liebeler. either before november , , or afterwards? mr. paine. that is correct. mr. liebeler. when you moved the sacks, the blanket, the package that was wrapped in the blanket in your garage, were you able to determine whether or not the object inside the sack was also wrapped in paper? mr. paine. i would have said that it was not. when we practiced wrapping that rifle yesterday i would have guessed that any paper around the barrel in there, which i could feel with some clarity, would have crinkled. mr. liebeler. and to your recollection there was no crinkling in the package wrapped with the blanket? mr. paine. yes. it was a very quiet package. mr. liebeler. yesterday we did try to and did wrap the rifle previously referred to in our testimony in the blanket which you have just examined. would you tell the commission about that? mr. paine. i tried wrapping it to the shape and size and bulk that i remembered the package. i had a little difficulty, it got quite close to the right shape by wrapping it at an angle. the rifle was laid in the blanket somewhat on a bias to the rectangle blanket form. then there was a small end of the barrel, i didn't discover how you could fold that over to tie it with string without making it bulkier than i remember. but the package came quite close to what i remembered. mr. liebeler. now on the basis of wrapping that rifle in the blanket, would you say that it was probable, that the package that was in your garage was in fact that rifle wrapped in that blanket? mr. paine. yes, i think it was or a rifle of that size. mr. liebeler. you said just a moment ago that you saw the rifle we have had here this morning or a similar rifle shown to marina oswald sometime shortly after the assassination. would you tell us the circumstances surrounding that event? mr. paine. we went to the police station that evening, and probably about o'clock, i saw the rifle being shown to marina. mr. liebeler. this was at the dallas police station? mr. paine. dallas police station. ruth was present, and mamantov was present. representative ford. who was the last one? mr. paine. ilya mamantov, i think ilya is the first name, but mr. mamantov. he teaches parttime, parttime teaching in russian, was familiar to ruth as the son-in-law of her tutor. mr. liebeler. did you hear any of the conversation that was going on in the room in which marina was being shown this rifle? mr. paine. no, no. mr. liebeler. do you know whether or not your wife heard them? mr. paine. my wife, of course, was right there. and heard the whole thing. mr. liebeler. did she subsequently tell you what occurred? mr. paine. yes, she did. mr. liebeler. what did she tell you? mr. paine. she told me that marina wasn't able to identify that rifle as the one that lee had. she knew that lee had a rifle, and i think she knew it was wrapped in a package like this. i think ruth reported that she had, marina had, opened up a corner of the blanket and looked in and seen part of the butt, and hadn't liked the idea of rifles, the rifles made her a little uncomfortable and hadn't looked at it further. mr. liebeler. this was at the time the rifle was presumably wrapped in the blanket in your garage, correct? mr. paine. i assumed that. i didn't ask that question. mr. liebeler. did your wife tell you anything more about what happened at that time? mr. paine. you will have to jog my memory if you have any specific questions. i don't recall. mr. liebeler. that is the best of your recollection now that you have given us? mr. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. how much would you say that the package that you saw in your garage weighed? mr. paine. i reported earlier to the fbi or pounds. i never at the time thought of the weight of it as i was moving it around. mr. liebeler. in your previous discussions or conversations with the fbi did you ever tell them in word or substance that if there had been a rifle in the package that was located in your garage that you did not think it could have a telescopic sight mounted on it? mr. paine. i don't recall having said that. i don't believe i would have known that. mr. liebeler. do you recall any discussions of that sort with the fbi at all. did they ask you about that? mr. paine. yes, i think they asked me coming out to find out when and where and how the sight may have been put on but i never felt the package in the center. i always grabbed it at these two ends. mr. liebeler. to the best of your recollection you never told the fbi that you didn't think the package contained a rifle with a telescopic sight? mr. paine. that is correct. mr. liebeler. did you ever observe or hear prior to the assassination that lee oswald had been practicing with a rifle? mr. paine. no, i didn't know prior to the assassination, we didn't know he had a rifle. i had supposed from my conversation with him back on neely street that he would like to have a rifle but i didn't gather that he did. mr. liebeler. aside from whether or not you knew that he had a rifle, did you ever hear or observe him practicing with a rifle? mr. paine. no, i did not. mr. liebeler. are you familiar with the sport's drome rifle range in grand prairie, tex? mr. paine. i think i know about where it is. no, i don't even know where it is. i know the race track is there. mr. liebeler. have you ever been there? mr. paine. no. mr. liebeler. did you know that oswald received mail at your house from irving, tex? mr. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. do you know what kind of mail he received? mr. paine. i suppose he used it as the mailing address for most of his mail until he would receive, get a permanent address, so he received the daily worker there, or the worker, and also, i didn't see it come, i don't generally see the mail that arrives there. most of my mail would arrive at that address even though i was living somewhere else because i also didn't feel permanent in my other addresses, so ruth would collect the mail and separated mine into a separate pile. i didn't see the militant arrive. i did see various russian magazines, agitateur, maybe a very large one. a very large one and the daily worker, the worker. mr. liebeler. did you ever discuss these publications with oswald? mr. paine. yes, we talked with regard to the daily worker. he said that, he told me, that you could tell what they wanted you to do, they, a word i dislike, what they wanted you to do by reading between the lines, reading the thing and doing a little reading between the lines. he then gave me an issue to look and see. i wanted to see if i could read between the lines and see what they wanted you to do. mr. liebeler. did you read the particular issue that he referred to? mr. paine. i tried to. i don't think i had very much patience to go through it. mr. liebeler. do you remember what particular issue it was? mr. paine. no, i didn't notice. mr. liebeler. can you set the date of this discussion that you had with oswald? mr. paine. that was fairly soon after his coming back. so let's say the middle of october. mr. liebeler. did he discuss with you, your ability or inability to determine what they wanted you to do by reading between the lines after you had read the publication? mr. paine. no, i just handed it back to him. mr. liebeler. was there anything else said between you at that time on that subject? mr. paine. he asked me how did i like it. mr. liebeler. what did you say? mr. paine. and i tried to be polite. i said it was awful extreme, i thought. mr. liebeler. did he respond to that? mr. paine. i think that was the end of it. mr. dulles. do i understand that this was, this daily worker was, mailed---- mr. paine. to . mr. dulles. to your address in irving? mr. paine. that is right. or ruth's address. mr. dulles. it wasn't readdressed but it was directly sent? mr. paine. that is correct. mr. dulles. he gave your address for the worker to come to? mr. paine. that is right. representative ford. what prompted him to hand you the worker? was there any preface to the actual handing of it to you? mr. paine. yes. i think i was asking him, i would like to, i wanted to see some literature or what he liked to read or something like that. i think it was as a response to some question or inquiry of mine. mr. dulles. do you know whether this was addressed to him in care of you or ruth paine or was it just sent at the paine address? mr. paine. i don't remember for certain. i would think it would have just been oswald at that address but i don't remember. it may have been. there were enough of those packages but i just don't remember. mr. liebeler. did you draw any inference at the time as a result of this conversation with oswald about his statement that you could tell what they wanted you to do by reading between the lines? mr. paine. well, it made me realize that he would like to be active in some kind of--activist. it made me also feel that he wasn't very well connected with a group or he wouldn't have such a tenuous way of communication, and i thought it was rather childish to someone like dick tracy, attract a child to dick tracy, to think that that was his bona fide way of being communicated or being a member of this communist cause or something. mr. liebeler. did you ever have any other discussions with him about literature that he received? mr. paine. i didn't know. other literature, i was somewhat interested in what the russian publications were saying but i didn't take it up with him. i wanted ruth to translate those. mr. liebeler. did you ever observe any cuban literature? mr. paine. no, i didn't. mr. liebeler. did you ever know that he ever received any such literature? mr. paine. no, i never, until after the assassination, i had never thought of cuba either in connection with oswald or in connection with the communists or the communist party. mr. liebeler. i show you commission exhibit which is enco map of the dallas-fort worth area, and ask you if you recognize that map. mr. paine. this is the kind of map that i always used, stopping in stations when i am out of one so i always have one in my car, and when the fbi showed me this particular map, which i trust is the same one i looked at before. i found on the back side a mark where it shows the whole map of the whole area, the dallas-fort worth area, a little mark where our house is, that is the kind of mark that i would make when i was trying to buy some land earlier and had in mind for a long time and i wanted to find the location that was accessible to the places i would then want to go. mr. liebeler. can you tell us---- mr. paine. this mark is still here. representative ford. this is the mark or can you identify that mark that you placed on this map? mr. paine. yes, i think i see a mark here of the sort which looks reasonable to me. i think it is the only mark on this side of the map. generally, i didn't make marks on the other side of the map. mr. liebeler. in your statement referring to one side of the map you were referring to the side that shows a map of the entire fort worth-dallas area, is that correct? mr. paine. that is correct. mr. liebeler. and you say as best you can see there is only one mark on this side of the map? mr. paine. that is the only one that is here, that i remember having found. i don't remember finding another one. mr. liebeler. do you remember putting that mark on the map? mr. paine. i remember putting--i think i put this kind of mark on more than one map. that is our house. it then helps locate it with regard to all the arteries and what not that lead to various places. mr. liebeler. you do think then it is probable that you did place the mark on the map that indicates the location of your house in irving, tex.; is that correct? mr. paine. yes, i think that is correct. mr. liebeler. do you know whether or not oswald ever came into possession of this map? mr. paine. and ruth gave oswald a map to--she told me she gave him a map, and this is the kind we have around the house, the best one she could get in the service station, to help him find a job, or help him when he was searching for a job. mr. liebeler. do you remember any other conversations with your wife about the map before the assassination? mr. paine. no, i don't believe she told me she had given him the map. i don't believe we discussed it at all. mr. liebeler. would you open the map to the portion that shows the area of dallas. i call your attention to a mark at the intersection of boll street and san jacinto, and ask you if you have any recollection of placing that mark on the map? mr. paine. no, i don't have any recollection of placing that mark on the map. mr. liebeler. do you remember any circumstances that might make it likely that you placed that mark on the map? mr. paine. i could have placed that mark on the map when i was looking for properties. i went down to the courthouse to get plats of the areas that i was thinking of buying, and they had a copy of the plat, and so they sent it out late on saturday, short of o'clock, and just short of closing, and it was a reproduction company at that address or near that address. mr. liebeler. is that the l. l. ridgway co.? mr. paine. yes. that is the company that i am referring to. i don't know exactly. mr. liebeler. but it is near the intersection we have just referred to? mr. paine. i will take your word for that. mr. liebeler. do you know that it is? mr. paine. no, i don't know. i think the fbi man said it was. i hadn't looked into it and didn't check it. mr. liebeler. you haven't any knowledge at this point whether the ridgway company is in this intersection or not? mr. paine. i remember it is right beside the expressway and in about that area. i don't remember the names of the roads. mr. liebeler. do you think it is probable or improbable that you placed the mark on the map, the one we have just been talking about, at boll and san jacinto streets? mr. paine. i remember in asking the clerk where it was, and i had a map of this sort, that was also in august when i was looking for places. i would have guessed i would not. i would have been able to see where it was and know in my mind where i wanted to go. mr. dulles. is that the same kind of a mark or a different kind of mark that is on the other side of the map to which we have just referred, the area map? mr. paine. it is a different mark. that mark that is on the other side of the map to which we have just referred, the area map, was our house. so i made a little square that i can see and indicate a house rather than--generally i don't make marks on maps. i look up where i want to go and i go. mr. liebeler. did your wife tell you when she had given this map to oswald? mr. paine. i suppose she gave it very soon after he came back and started looking for work. mr. liebeler. and you said it was august of when you were looking to find this reproduction place; is that correct? mr. paine. that is correct. mr. liebeler. i call your attention to a mark on hillcrest and asbury, and i ask you if you put that mark on the map? mr. paine. i don't recall making that mark. i think it is different from the other mark, and it is--if i were to make a mark that is more the way i would make a mark. it also happens to be the cafeteria where i like to eat, where you can get all you want for a dollar there, and it is a very good meal. so i would be interested in that, in locating it. here is one of the places where i was thinking of buying property. mr. dulles. is there a mark there at that place where you were interested in buying property? mr. paine. i don't think there is. i almost guessed that i didn't have that map at that time. also i was not living--i would guess for a further reason that i would not have this map on the time of that august date was because i hadn't been living--i had been living in this apartment, and i had a map over there, and i probably didn't have the same map that ruth had around her house. mr. liebeler. so you think it is probably likely you didn't place any marks on that map other than the one indicating your home? mr. paine. that is correct. in other words, i think that mark was placed there quite a long time back, because i have been interested in this locating of property for several years. mr. liebeler. is the mark at the hillcrest avenue spot, a mark of the type that you usually make? mr. paine. and, as i say, i don't usually make a mark, but i think i might more likely have made that kind of mark, more than some of the others--somebody else has put marks here with a ball-point pen which are not the kind i would make. mr. liebeler. in reviewing this map with the fbi, were there any other marks on the map that it was developed that you possibly put on the map other than the ones we have discussed? mr. paine. i don't now remember any others. this one of the cafeteria there is not exactly at the right spot. mr. liebeler. the mark at hillcrest avenue? mr. paine. that is right. mr. liebeler. as you look at the map now do you see any other marks which you think you might have put on the map? mr. paine. no. we went over it at mealtime in considerable detail, he having located most of the marks he could find on the map--no, i guess it was still marked up like this. we didn't find anything that i can remember there that i might have put on there. mr. liebeler. now, on the basis of your knowledge of oswald and your meeting with him, and your familiarity with him prior to the time of the assassination, did you form an opinion about him as to whether or not he would be likely to commit an act such as this, or whether he would be likely to take the life of any human being? mr. paine. it was a question we had to consider when we considered having marina at our house. so ruth and i discussed that, whether he was a dangerous person, and he didn't seem to be dangerous. of course, i also felt that i wasn't a particular opponent or foe of his. helping his family we were quite free and would let him, roughly, think of our arguments. i talked about getting angry, but, for the most part, it was a cordial relationship, so i didn't sense--he didn't display hostility to me or to ruth, and he was nice with the children, and while they were living with us, he was nice to marina also. he was during this time when he returned from mexico, he was quite a reasonable person. he was only unreasonable the first time i had met him. mr. liebeler. when did you have this discussion with your wife concerning whether or not you should let marina live with you? was that before they came back from new orleans? mr. paine. yes, it was. mr. liebeler. and you concluded at that time there was no reason why marina should not come there; is that right? mr. paine. that is right. of course, ruth went in and sounded them out rather cautiously and reported to me also his facial expressions and what-not when she was suggesting this, and he seemed to be glad of that rather than worried. mr. liebeler. now, after marina came and lived at your house, oswald was there during parts of the months october and november. did you change your opinion in this respect or was it reinforced, on the basis of his activities and your observation of him during that period? mr. paine. it was reinforced. mr. liebeler. you did not think him to be a violent person or one who would be likely to commit an act such as assassinating the president? mr. paine. i didn't--i saw he was a bitter person, he was bitter and quite a lot of very negative views of people in the world around him, very little charity in his view toward anybody, but i thought he was harmless. representative ford. was this a different reaction from the one you had had at your first meeting or your first acquaintance? mr. paine. when we first became acquainted i was somewhat shocked, especially that he would speak so harshly to his wife in front of a complete stranger, and it was at that point, or at that time, that i was persuaded i would like to free marina from her bondage and servitude to this man. he seemed to me he was keeping her, not helping her to learn the language, keeping her vassal to him, and this offended me, so at that point i became interested in helping her escape from him. of course, i was not going to try to force that. i didn't want to be separating a family that could get along. mr. liebeler. this bitterness that you detected following his return from mexico, was that a new reaction? mr. paine. no. that bitterness had existed all along. he also had been disagreeable to his wife, cruel to her. mr. liebeler. i see. mr. paine. not allowing her any personality, a mind of her own, and making sharp jibes at her. mr. dulles. and that continued awhile? mr. paine. that only existed that first night in march or april. mr. dulles. it did not continue when marina was at your house in irving? mr. paine. when marina came to our house she gained in health and weight. she started to look better and it looked to me as if the strain was off the family relationship. they were not quarreling. they billed and cooed. she sat on his lap and he said sweet nothings in her ear. mr. dulles. did you get any information from any source with regard to the situation while they were living in new orleans that she wanted to get away from him? mr. paine. oh, yes; well, ruth had told me when she came back from delivering marina to new orleans, she had gone down there expecting to spend a week, seeing new orleans, and it was a pretty long trip, and found the household, she reported to me, so uncomfortable living there. they were fighting, i mean, so difficult. she wanted to leave right away, and she left in a few days, left a lot sooner than she had expected to leave. mr. dulles. then your wife took her back, as you recall? mr. paine. then, my wife came home, and then she went back to naushon, mass., for a couple of months in the summer, and on her way back to texas stopped in new orleans, found him out of work, and invited marina to come back with her right then. mr. dulles. what did she learn at that time about oswald? what did she learn about lee oswald's treatment of marina, anything new or different at the time she stopped by new orleans, and then went back? mr. paine. she, perhaps, saw he loved her because she said that the parting, he genuinely seemed so happy to have ruth take her back. in other words, he seemed to be exhibiting some concern for marina, who was with child, and the child would be adequately taken care of, and sorry--it was a cheerful parting or something. she saw human qualities in him at that time. mr. liebeler. did she say after marina returned to your home in irving, and after oswald came back to dallas that their relationship improved even more, and oswald seemed to be under less strain than he had been prior to that time; is that correct? mr. paine. well, i don't--i only know two times, at the time in april when they came to dinner with us, and he was rough, crude, uncivil to her, and ruth's report of how they were while she was trying to live in this house in new orleans, when she just moved in. she also reported to me, and she will tell you this though that apparently lee had wanted to make her happy in this house, had liked the house, said it was in the old famous quarter of new orleans, and ruth could see that marina was unhappy. she thought it was uncomfortable in this darkness, and ruth thought it was a tragedy. both points of view were valid depending on which way you looked at it, so she saw that lee apparently had wanted to make her happy, wanted her to like the house when she arrived in new orleans, and had called her out there. she had also been eager to go out. apparently ruth reported to me when he called from new orleans, saying he had a job and "come live with me, come back with me," marina had been very happy. mr. liebeler. did you specifically consider the question before you let marina move into your home as to whether oswald was a violent person? mr. paine. yes, specifically. i talked it over with frank. frank raised the question also. so i talked it over with ruth several times, and frank brought up the question, and i thought of it myself. mr. liebeler. and you concluded on the basis of these discussions and your knowledge of oswald, your collective knowledge of oswald, at that time that he was not a violent person; is that correct? mr. paine. that he wasn't going to stab ruth or marina. mr. liebeler. that he wasn't going to exhibit any violence to any of you people? mr. paine. that is right. he wouldn't be a danger to ruth. that was partly based, first, on the fact that we were not--we were careful to avoid putting him in a position that he felt offended. mr. liebeler. you didn't consider at the time that you were considering oswald's possible violence toward you and your group whether he might exhibit violence to some other person? mr. paine. that is correct; yes. mr. liebeler. you formed no judgment about that one way or the other? mr. paine. that is correct. we assumed or felt that--if we handled him with a gentle or considerate manner that he wouldn't be a danger to us. mr. dulles. in the light of subsequent information and developments, and the information which is publicly available, have you reached any other conclusions as to or any conclusions as to whether or not lee oswald was the assassin of the president? mr. paine. when the police first asked me did i think he had done it, my dubiousness in my mind arose from not seeing how this could fit, how this could help his cause, and i didn't think he was irrational. it did not seem to me that he could shoot a man as he would shoot a tin can. difficulty of a person shooting another person was not the reason for my doubting, and the circumstantial evidence seemed quite powerful to me. mr. liebeler. seemed quite powerful? mr. paine. yes. but then i realized with subsequent people calling from all over the country, somebody had said it is only a single-shot rifle, and i recognize one little fact like that could alter my thinking entirely. somebody else said there was a shot through the windshield of the car. we went down to the place and looked around, and he thought that--he had a theory that the man had been shot from a manhole in the street, so i recognized that my views could change with evidence. mr. liebeler. do you have a view on oswald's guilt at this time? mr. paine. most of these other things have proved to be false. it seems to be a clip-fed rifle. the man who thought it was shot from the place, i went down and saw the diagram drawn by life seemed to be quite accurate so far as i could reconstruct the thing, and there was confusion about the number of bullets. i never did discover--it didn't quite make sense, but for the most part, i accept it, the common view that he did it. mr. liebeler. where were you on the morning of november , ? mr. paine. i was having, at the time of the assassination i was at work, of course, but at the time of the assassination i was in the cafeteria associated with the bowling alley having lunch. mr. liebeler. who was with you? mr. paine. a student, a co-op student called dave noel happened to be with me. we happened to be talking about the character of assassins at that lunchtime, of all things. mr. liebeler. prior to the time you heard of the assassination? mr. paine. that is right. when we first sat down at the meal we were discussing it, beside the point, except unless you believe in extrasensory perception, but we happened to just--we didn't have enough historical knowledge to explore it, but i just raised the question and tried to pursue it, and then dropped it, and then a waitress came and said the president had been shot, and i thought she was cracking a nasty joke, and went over to a cluster of people listening around a transistor set, and heard there was some commotion of this sort from the tone of the voice of the transistor set, and we went back to the lab where there is a good radio, and followed the news from there. when it was mentioned, the texas school book depository building was mentioned, then i told frank krystinik that that was where lee oswald worked, and then in a few minutes he came back and said, he asked me, didn't i think i had better call the fbi and tell them. so over a period of about minutes, i trying to carry on work in a foolish way, or talking or discussing other things or something, we were discussing this problem, and i thought, i said to myself, or said to him, that the fbi already knew he worked there. everybody would know he was a black sheep, and i didn't want to--a friend or one of the few friends in position of friendship to him, i didn't want to--join the mob barking at his heels or join in his harassment, so i declined. i didn't tell frank that he couldn't call the fbi, but i said i wasn't going to do it, so i didn't. i called ruth immediately after getting back just to see that she would turn on the radio and be clued in with the news, but this was before the texas school book depository building was mentioned, to my knowledge, and she was already watching the news. so we communicated nothing at that time. mr. dulles. do you know whether your luncheon companion did or did not telephone the fbi? mr. paine. this is not the luncheon companion. this is dave noel. frank krystinik brings his lunch, and he eats his lunch at the lab. mr. dulles. at the lab? mr. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. mr. paine, would you give us the nature of the conversation you were having concerning assassination prior to the assassination. first let me ask you was anybody else present beside you and your companion at the time of the conversation? mr. paine. no, just he and i. mr. liebeler. tell us the general essence of the conversation as best you can recall. mr. paine. there had been talk, of course, people, i don't get a newspaper, but i do listen to the radio. i know what my news source is, it is mostly magazines. so there was some anxiety about the president coming to dallas-fort worth, and it appeared that this thought was in the minds of several others, i was not singular in this way. it had been expected, of course, that trouble would come from the right-wing, and i was wondering whether there was any danger, i suppose, that is somebody who could be drummed up by local feeling. the number of anti-kennedy jokes cracked was quite large in texas, and so i was wondering, you know, what kind of a person would kill a president, and i don't think dave noel knew anything about it, so it was just musing or conjecturing on my part. i certainly didn't think of lee oswald. i didn't expect it from that cause, from that end of the spectrum. mr. liebeler. when did you first think of lee oswald in connection with the assassination? mr. paine. as soon as i heard the texas school book depository building mentioned. now, i did not know that--it never occurred to me, i didn't realize, there was a building there on his route. i had seen this warehouse building from the expressway, you can see the name written in large letters, but that is the way from any main thoroughfare. so i had supposed, i never put--except when it was mentioned that that was the building he shot from or was the building that the shot was fired from, then i realized i did know where he worked. mr. dulles. you had not been at irving that previous night? mr. paine. no, i had not. mr. liebeler. you knew oswald worked at the texas school book depository building? mr. paine. yes, i did. mr. liebeler. as soon as you heard that that building was involved in the assassination, you thought of oswald, did you not? mr. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. what did you think? mr. paine. wondering whether oswald would do it. and the argument against it, the only argument against it, was just i didn't think he was irrational, or it seemed to me to be irrational. mr. liebeler. and you asked yourself the question of whether or not oswald would do it solely on the basis of your knowledge that he worked in that building, is that correct? mr. paine. yes. well, i didn't realize he worked in that building, but then i realized i didn't know--i knew he worked at that organization. i didn't realize there was a building on elm street there. mr. liebeler. did you talk to your wife after you heard that the texas school book depository building was involved in the shooting, and before you subsequently heard that oswald had been arrested in connection with the assassination? mr. paine. i don't believe so. i think i called her only once to see that she was listening to the news, and then i assumed she would know all that i knew, and as soon as she heard that i supposed she would be wondering the same thing. it wasn't many minutes later though, it seemed to me, that the name lee oswald was mentioned--in the theater. the newsmen didn't connect it up at all, but that is all i needed to send me home. mr. liebeler. so then you left for your home in irving? mr. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. you left for home before there had been any public connection made between oswald and the assassination, is that correct? mr. paine. well, of course, the police were reporting they had suspects here and suspects there, were chasing suspects over here, and here was a man who had shot officer tippit. they didn't even mention him as a suspect, but there was another murder coincident in time. mr. liebeler. so the news broadcast connected oswald with officer tippit? mr. paine. that is right. mr. liebeler. did you then consider again whether or not oswald had been involved in the assassination? mr. paine. well, that was too much to have his name mentioned away from his place of work as having killed somebody; the stew was too thick to stay at work, and i was shaken too much, anyway. mr. liebeler. so your testimony is that you first thought of oswald after you heard of the texas school book depository building being involved in the assassination, but you concluded at that time that oswald was probably not involved in the assassination; is that correct? mr. paine. that is correct. mr. liebeler. is there any other reason other than the fact oswald was at that building that made you think of him when you heard that building mentioned in connection with the assassination? mr. paine. well, yes; oswald, of course, stands--he is a black sheep in society; i mean he is, if you were to pick out the singular person among the employees there, he is the one, or he is probably the one. i don't happen to know the people who worked there. i gather from him there were about people working there in a fairly large building. mr. liebeler. what was your state of mind when you heard that the texas school book depository building was involved in the shooting, did you deeply suspect oswald had been involved, or was it just a passing thought? tell us some more about that if you can, recreate your state of mind. mr. paine. i think i was nervous. i know i was trying to assemble a vibration meter and could not put in the screws or i kept making mistakes. i was preoccupied. of course, the darn fools, we should have all stopped to mourn the president, but it is kind of a habit, i wasn't accustomed, habit drove us on, very unhappy or unresolved emotional time. i thought, firstly, frank was quite insistent, he didn't just ask me once, but several times, whether i didn't think i should call the fbi. mr. liebeler. did he tell you why he thought you should call the fbi? mr. paine. well, he would have, but he is of that nature. at one time he had seen someone taking pictures of hensley field, which has signs on the outside "no photographs allowed," and i said i believe more in freedom. it seems to me if the field doesn't want the pictures taken, they had better put up a big fence. but he had gone ahead and called up the base commander, and the base commander knew the man. that was his normal mode of behavior, whereas my normal defense is of the individual, and i didn't think--i would not like to, if lee is falsely accused, i wouldn't want to be jumping on him with the mob. if he is properly, if he is guilty, he will be found. they know he works there, he is connected to us. i couldn't contribute to his capture, so that my withholding information wouldn't harm the search for the right man, and having jumped on him unfairly i might be ashamed of that later on. so that was my feeling in regard to whether i should call the fbi. i think i just kind of felt cold sweats or something like that in regard to the question could he have done that thing. i don't think i went much beyond that, could he, could he. mr. liebeler. did krystinik indicate to you any reason for his desire to call the fbi? did he suspect oswald had done this on the basis of his knowledge of oswald? mr. paine. it seemed to me very reasonable that he should think so. of course, i don't think the others were so sharply aware, the others in the lab were so sharply aware that we were wrestling with this problem. the chairman. he didn't say anything to you, he didn't tell you any other reason? mr. paine. no, he didn't; but his reaction seemed perfectly reasonable to me. the chairman. yes. mr. paine. i felt the same one--if you were to pick out somebody in that building, it was a rather singular coincidence we knew this man who was so negative to our society and not an ingratiating person, not a person with compassion or something. mr. liebeler. what time did you arrive at your home in irving? mr. paine. i would guess about or : , somewhere in that neighborhood. mr. liebeler. who was there when you arrived? mr. paine. the police, the dallas police mostly were there. mr. liebeler. your wife was there? mr. paine. my wife and marina. mr. liebeler. do you remember what you said when you arrived? mr. paine. i don't know. no, i don't remember what i said. mr. liebeler. did you say in words or substance, "i came right home as soon as i heard the shots were fired from the texas school book depository building?" mr. paine. no, i came right home as soon as i heard lee oswald mentioned. i did not come home. mr. liebeler. do you remember saying that you came right home as soon as you heard that oswald was involved? mr. paine. yes, i think i said something like that. ruth asked me. mr. liebeler. now, you mentioned before that after you arrived home you went into the garage when the police officers went into your garage. was there any indication to you at that time that the garage had been previously searched by the police or anyone else? mr. paine. this i don't remember very well. but, as i remember, this was not the first time we had gone in there. i think, perhaps, they went into--i don't remember, but i don't think it was the first time they had gone in. mr. liebeler. you said when you did go into the garage, however, the blanket was there in the garage? mr. paine. i think it was. it was still there. mr. liebeler. tell us, to the best of your recollection, what was said in respect of the blanket and search of the garage, as you say. before you answer that question, let me ask you, did your wife go with you into the garage with the police officers? mr. paine. i think they were further in in the garage. i think i stayed--the band saw is fairly close to--there is an overhead door to the garage, and close to the under edge of that when it is pulled up. in other words, it is fairly close to the outside in the garage, and i think i stayed somewhat near the door entering the garage, which is the inside end of the garage. mr. liebeler. and your wife was with the police officers further in? mr. paine. yes, i think she was. mr. liebeler. was marina oswald there? mr. paine. failure of recollection, i would say, yes. but it is a very fuzzy recollection. mr. liebeler. can you tell us where the blanket was found? mr. paine. it doesn't really make sense as to why they would still leave the blanket there, and these things would have been discussed at that time, but i kind of remember a kind of silhouette situation, a police officer either lifted up or kicked this blanket, which was in exactly the same location that the rifle, the package had been, underneath the saw and somewhat in the sawdust. and i think he put it back there. he may have asked me at that time, "did you know what was in this?" mr. liebeler. do you remember that? mr. paine. and that is why i think they asked me, it may have been as early as that, whether it was a rifle, "do you think it could have been a rifle?" i don't remember how it was posed, but i probably answered when it was suggested, it was a rifle, and there they suggested it was a rifle, because they had already learned from marina that he had had a rifle, and it had been, perhaps, had learned it had been in that blanket. mr. liebeler. do you know they had previously asked marina about that? mr. paine. no; but i think--i'm just telling you my impressions here, very fuzzy impressions. mr. liebeler. go ahead. mr. paine. my impression was that they asked me if i knew what was in this blanket, or he asked me, and then he asked me if it could be a rifle, and i probably responded, yes. it didn't take long once the rifle was suggested as the object to fit this puzzle together, this puzzle of the pieces that i had been trying to assemble in the package. mr. liebeler. what else happened? mr. paine. we went out of the garage, i don't think he took the blanket then even. mr. liebeler. this is the dallas police officer? mr. paine. yes, plainclothesman, wearing black hats; one of them had one of those texas hats. he collected all the useless stuff in our house, he went around and collected all the files of ruth, and a drawer of cameras, mostly belonging to me. i tried to tell him one of the files contained our music or something like that, and the more i suggested it, that he not bother taking those, the more insistent he was in taking those objects. so with the various boxes and piles of stuff, mostly of our stuff, we got in the car and went off, and he was quite irked that we had wasted quite enough time around there, he said, and ruth was irked, and everybody was irked by it. he wouldn't let us be helpful, and thought we were--he became angry when we tried to be helpful or something that we would suggest that he should do. mr. liebeler. did they tell you how they happened to come to your house? mr. paine. no. i don't remember. i think i may have asked it, "you found us pretty quickly," or somebody said this, but i don't remember. mr. liebeler. do you remember any other conversations about this blanket? mr. paine. no. mr. liebeler. did anyone notice any scraps of paper or tape similar to the ones of which these sacks were constructed that we previously identified, particularly commission ? mr. paine. not that i remember. mr. liebeler. is there anything else that happened during this period prior to the time the police left that you think would be significant or that we ought to know about? mr. paine. no; very little happened. we just bundled up and went. marina was--whimpered a little bit, but mostly it was dry. mr. liebeler. you went with the police? mr. paine. we went with the police in several cars and didn't come back until quite a lot later that night, didn't go into the garage again; didn't want the life reporters to take photographs, so i don't think they went in the garage to take photographs. several--their possessions were searched by various waves of succeeding policemen, dallas, and irving and fbi, and what not. mr. liebeler. now, there has been a report that on november , , there was a telephone call between a man and a woman, between the numbers of your residence and the number of your office, in which the man was reported to have said in words or substance, "we both know who is responsible for the assassination." have you been asked about this before? mr. paine. i had heard that--i didn't know it was associated with our numbers. i had heard a report that some telephone operator had listened in on a conversation somewhere, i don't know where it was. i thought it was some other part of the country. mr. liebeler. did you talk to your wife on the telephone at any time during saturday, november , on the telephone? mr. paine. i was in the police station again, and i think i called her from there. mr. liebeler. did you make any remark to the effect that you knew who was responsible? mr. paine. and i don't know who the assassin is or was; no, so i did not. mr. liebeler. you are positive in your recollection that you made no such remark? mr. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. would you tell us your impression and your opinion of the relationship that had developed between marina oswald and your wife during the period that they knew each other up to the time of the assassination and subsequent to the assassination when, as we discussed briefly yesterday, there came to be a cooling off between them or a disenchantment. mr. paine. ruth was mostly learning the language, so she was limited in her vocabulary and couldn't talk about--she explained to me she couldn't talk about--political or economic subjects. it was a topic on which her vocabulary didn't serve her, but it did appear she had spoken of quite a number of things. marina had told her about movies she had seen in the soviet union, but i thought that the knowledge, ruth's knowledge, i suppose ruth's knowledge of marina was fairly shallow. and marina was quite reserved. now, it may have been more so when i was in the house that she was not as much at ease as she was, perhaps, with ruth herself. of course, marina was in a position where she always had to be polite. ruth is easy to get along with, however, so i didn't expect marina to have difficulty. but i didn't think ruth and marina were bosom friends or buddies, but neither, of course, i didn't mean to suggest the opposite. ruth was enjoying marina's company and i was glad to have marina staying with ruth. it actually reduced the cost. ruth saved money. the bills were less while marina was there, and ruth, in general, was happier. mr. liebeler. did you learn---- mr. paine. i didn't think ruth knew marina very well, but i don't know how well she knew her. mr. liebeler. did you learn subsequently or are you aware that subsequent to the assassination there has been a disenchantment or some strain between marina and ruth? mr. paine. several things happened. ruth was put out when she learned marina knew afterward that oswald had taken a shot at walker, if that were true. she thought that was quite morally remiss on marina's part, and so we talked about that thing. mr. dulles. when did she learn that? mr. paine. this was in the newspaper report. mr. dulles. she only learned it through the newspaper? mr. paine. that is correct. so we discussed the mitigating circumstances of marina not knowing the language and not knowing who she could go to if she wanted to stay in this country and, perhaps--we believe there were extenuating circumstances which would, perhaps, excuse marina. ruth was troubled about that, and so she wrote a series of quite a number of letters, each one referring to previous letters, trying to discover whether they were being withheld, thinking marina was a responsible person or normally civil person, she would normally respond to or at least acknowledge receipt of them. so ruth didn't know whether she was receiving them or not, and had another--some encounters with martin and thorne which didn't put her at ease. she still didn't know whether marina was receiving them. she saw only some of the checks had been signed by thorne rather than marina. thorne had said that marina didn't say he had power of attorney, and marina was trying to do everything that she could which, at least, she could sign her checks, checks or gifts. so there were these indications. ruth was very much in the dark, not knowing why she had received no communication from marina, and having conflicting reports from martin. martin said she had a phone right beside her if she wanted to call. mr. dulles. how did she receive these checks? mr. paine. i guess ruth--some of the checks came to ruth as gifts to her, and ruth would write her own check so she got her own stub back. mr. dulles. i see. mr. paine. therefore, ruth had this question of whether she had offended marina or whether marina had done something that offended ruth or whether marina didn't like ruth and had never let on. this would be a great blow to her ego. it had ruth in great periods of depression and anxiety. mr. dulles. did either you or your wife, to your knowledge, know robert oswald? mr. paine. we only met him for the first time on the night of the assassination. we both liked him at that time. mr. liebeler. mr. paine, is there any other subject that we haven't covered in the testimony that you think the commission ought to know about in connection with this assassination? mr. paine. i don't believe there is anything else that i know. mr. liebeler. i have no more questions. the chairman. do you have any questions, mr. dulles? mr. dulles. the only question i have in mind is as to what took place as far as mr. paine is concerned on the night of the assassination. were you in the police station? mr. paine. we went down to the police and stayed there until about or o'clock. then marguerite came home with us and spent the night. mr. dulles. you didn't see lee harvey at that time, did you? mr. paine. they asked me and i declined to see him at that time. i changed my mind. when they immediately asked me, i declined. i did not know what he would ask me, so i did not see him. mr. dulles. you did not see him? mr. paine. no. mr. dulles. did your wife see him? mr. paine. i think no one saw him. marina went in the next morning hoping to see him. mr. dulles. there were no conversations that took place that evening that are pertinent to our investigation so far as you know? mr. paine. quite soon i called the aclu. there were reports, yes, i think at that time, that friday night, marguerite was saying he wasn't receiving counsel, and so i called the aclu to see if there was anybody there checking to see if this was true, and apparently a delegation, this was saturday morning, and apparently a delegation had been sent. mr. dulles. but to your knowledge neither you nor your wife had any conversations with marina or robert that would throw any light on this apparent coolness? mr. paine. ruth apparently saw marina this last weekend. we have some indications that people had gone between, chiefly levine. mr. dulles. you think money considerations had anything to do with this? mr. paine. i think quite a lot--it will be borne out, between ruth and marina subsequently, i think they will find the difficulties. i think thorne---- mr. dulles. what i have in mind is as to whether some of these other people thought that you and ruth might intervene in as business manager or something of that kind between them, and the monetary considerations that were coming in to marina. mr. paine. we didn't know why. we have the feeling that thorne was advising her not to speak to ruth. ruth is not interested in the money, but is interested in protecting her from the wolves, and so she thought, we both thought, there were some false stories being told to marina in regard to ruth. mr. dulles. that is all. the chairman. thank you very much, mr. paine. mr. paine. thank you, sir. the chairman. we will examine mrs. paine this afternoon at o'clock. (whereupon, at : p.m., the president's commission recessed.) afternoon session testimony of ruth hyde paine the president's commission reconvened at : p.m. mr. mccloy. before i ask you to be sworn, mrs. paine. i will give you a little general indication of what our testimony is apt to cover. we have heard that you and your husband made the acquaintance of the oswalds somewhere during , and that mrs. marina oswald lived in your home from late september , i believe, to the time of the assassination. since we are inquiring under our mandate into the background and the possible motives of the assassination by lee harvey oswald, the alleged assassin, we will question you regarding your association with mr. oswald and try to glean from you any other facts that may bear upon the assassination or its motivation. i believe you have been furnished with a copy of the executive order under which we are operating as well as the congressional resolution? mrs. paine. yes. mr. mccloy. now if you will please stand, i will swear you. mrs. paine. i would like to affirm. mr. mccloy. do you solemnly affirm that the evidence you will give in this investigation will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? mrs. paine. yes; i do. mr. mccloy. will you state your full name for the record and your address? mrs. paine. i am ruth hyde paine. i live at west fifth street, in irving, tex. mr. mccloy. mr. jenner is going to conduct the examination. mr. jenner. your maiden name? mrs. paine. is hyde. mr. jenner. ruth avery hyde. mrs. paine. right. mr. jenner. you are wife of michael ralph paine? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and you were born september , ? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. you are almost years old. mrs. paine. almost . i will be in september. mr. jenner. pretty bad arithmetic. just a little bit of your background, mrs. paine, very little. your mother and father are living? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. and your mother is an unitarian minister ordained in the unitarian church at the moment? mrs. paine. yes; she is. mr. jenner. and received her degree in theology last summer i believe, is that correct? mrs. paine. no, she has completed her work for a bachelor of divinity degree from oberlin college and she will receive it in the spring. they don't give them in mid-year. she completed just the first of february. mr. jenner. you yourself are a college graduate? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. antioch college? mrs. paine. yellow springs. mr. jenner. yellow springs, ohio? mrs. paine. right. mr. jenner. you have a brother and sister. mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and your mother, your father, yourself, your brother, and your sister are your entire family. mrs. paine. my immediate family. mr. jenner. your brother is a graduate of antioch also, he and your sister. are they older than you? mrs. paine. yes, they are. mr. jenner. which is the elder of the two? mrs. paine. my brother is the oldest. mr. jenner. and your brother is a professional man, is he? mrs. paine. he is a doctor, general practitioner. mr. jenner. a general physician, and he practices in yellow springs, ohio? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. would you tell us where yellow springs is? mrs. paine. it is about miles south and west from columbus, ohio, the capital, which is more or less in the middle of the state, and just a little bit east of dayton. mr. jenner. is your brother married. mrs. paine. yes, he is. mr. jenner. does he have a family? mrs. paine. he has four children. mr. jenner. and is your sister married? mrs. paine. yes; she is. mr. jenner. does she have a family? mrs. paine. she has four children. mr. jenner. and each of your brothers and your sister, it is their first marriage? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. now you were married to mr. paine december , , is that correct? mrs. paine. yes; i believe so. mr. jenner. and you were married where, in philadelphia? mrs. paine. it was suburban philadelphia. friends meeting in media, pa. mr. jenner. would you tell us what the friends meeting is which you have mentioned? mrs. paine. i am a member of the society of friends often known as quakers. mr. jenner. you are a quaker? mrs. paine. i am. mr. jenner. when did you embrace that faith? mrs. paine. i joined in early , i believe. mr. jenner. has any other member of your family embraced the quaker faith? mrs. paine. yes; my brother is also a quaker. mr. jenner. when did he embrace that faith. mrs. paine. similar in time, a year or two one way or the other. i don't recall exactly. mr. jenner. i am afraid i might have been inattentive. when did you say that occurred? mrs. paine. similar in time. i don't remember just when exactly he joined. mr. jenner. i was thinking more as to when you said you did. mrs. paine. in early ' , i think; i am quite certain it was winter of ' . mr. jenner. you were then in college? mrs. paine. that was the year out. i went to antioch one year and then i took a year out and i joined my home meeting in columbus which i had already attended perhaps years. mr. jenner. and from the time you joined the quaker church you have been a member of that church? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. or that faith? mrs. paine. or church; yes. mr. jenner. ever since? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. now you and mr. paine, did you take up a residence in philadelphia as soon as you married? mrs. paine. i had been living in philadelphia working there, and then when we married i moved to suburban philadelphia where michael was living, paoli, pa. mr. jenner. his folks live in paoli, also, do they not? mrs. paine. his mother and stepfather. mr. jenner. and you remained in paoli until when? mrs. paine. well, it was summer of ' we were in the process of moving, didn't complete it until fall of ' . mr. jenner. i see. you moved to where? mrs. paine. to irving, where we are now, to the present address. mr. jenner. to your present home? and that was in the summer of ? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. at some later stage we will go into what occurred. in the meantime we have you now in irving, tex. is that a suburb of dallas? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. you and your husband purchased the home you have there before you went down. mrs. paine. oh, no; we stayed at a small apartment for several weeks looking around and then rented for a year, and then we purchased the house we have been renting. mr. jenner. so you purchased that and moved in in , is that about right? mrs. paine. we first moved into it in the fall of ' . mr. jenner. you rented it and then purchased it. mrs. paine. the same house; yes. mr. jenner. all right, thank you. you have two children? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. a boy and a girl? mrs. paine. a girl and a boy. mr. jenner. would you name the oldest of the two. mrs. paine. sylvia lynn and the boy--she is now . the boy is christopher and he is . mr. jenner. the point i was getting at, your daughter, sylvia, was born after you reached texas? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and what was her birth? mrs. paine. she was born on november , ' . mr. jenner. . now you are acquainted, became acquainted with marina oswald, did you not, in due course in irving, tex.? mrs. paine. no. i first met her and her husband at a gathering of people in dallas at the home of everett glover. mr. jenner. i will get to that in a moment. mrs. paine. okay. i had not met her before that. mr. jenner. at this time you and your husband were living in your present home in irving, tex.? mrs. paine. in ' . mr. jenner. at the time that you met marina oswald? mrs. paine. no. michael moved to an apartment in september of . mr. jenner. there had been some strained relations or difficulties between yourself and your husband michael. when we shake our heads we don't get it on the record. the answer to that is "yes"? mrs. paine. is "no." i had not met her when there had been some strained relations between me and my husband. it is just we are having difficulties with words. mr. jenner. what i was getting at--there had been some strained relations, is that correct? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and mr. paine had moved to separate quarters. this was in september of , correct. mrs. paine. right. mr. jenner. you met marina for the first time when. mrs. paine. i judge it was the last of february, towards the end of february of . mr. jenner. you were then living with your children in your home at . mrs. paine. west fifth. mr. jenner. west fifth street in irving, tex. now would you please relate the circumstances under which the meeting between yourself and marina oswald first occurred in february of . mrs. paine. i was invited to come to the home of everett glover to meet a few friends of his, and i judge that was on the d of february looking back at my calendar. mr. jenner. would you please tell us who mr. everett glover was and how you became acquainted with him. what was the milieu? mrs. paine. i met mr. glover at a group gathered to sing madrigals together. these are old english songs where each part has a melody and it was for the enjoyment of reading the music and in harmony, and we often had coffee afterward and would talk. mr. jenner. this included your husband, however, did it not? mrs. paine. yes indeed. mr. jenner. you had a common interest in this? mrs. paine. madrigal singing? mr. jenner. madrigal singing? mrs. paine. yes. and went together. mr. jenner. proceed. mrs. paine. and then everett knew that i was interested in learning russian well enough to teach it, and since this gathering was to include some people who spoke russian, he invited me and he invited michael also to attend. michael caught a bad cold and wasn't able to go. i went. mr. jenner. excuse me, could i interrupt you a moment here. though your husband was living in his own quarters, the relations between you, however, were not so disruptive but what you were friendly, and you were attending these singing groups? mrs. paine. that is right. i saw him perhaps once or twice a week for dinner at my house, and we went out to rather more movies than some of my married friends. mr. jenner. there was reasonable cordiality? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. yes. i don't wish to pry into your private life. mrs. paine. if it is pertinent, go ahead. mr. jenner. mrs. paine, there is some necessity. we might touch a little on your private life if you will forgive me for doing it. mr. glover, is he a single person? mrs. paine. he was at the time of the party. he has been divorced from his wife. he is now remarried. mr. jenner. now i interrupted you at the point at which you were relating that mr. glover had raised with you, i assume this was a telephone call, that he was going to have some guests. he knew of your interest in the study and the learning of the russian language and its use? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. do i correctly summarize it up to the moment? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. you have an entry in your calendar as i recall on this subject. there is a question mark. mrs. paine. i recall it says "everett?" mr. jenner. may i hand the witness the document? mr. mccloy. you may. mr. jenner. this will be commission exhibit no. . gentlemen for the purpose of identification of the exhibit, it is mrs. paine's calendar which she used in part as a diary and part to record prospective appointments and she surrendered it to the fbi. this is not merely a photostat, it is a picture taken with a camera of that calendar. (commission exhibit no. was marked for identification.) mr. jenner. may i ask you a question or two about it mrs. paine. did you not go through each of the pages of that calendar with me this morning? mrs. paine. yes, i did. mr. jenner. and i asked you, did i not, whether it was all in your handwriting? mrs. paine. you did. mr. jenner. except for the identification on the front, the officer who received it from you--he made a notation of the date of receipt--it is all in your handwriting? mrs. paine. that is correct. mr. jenner. and it is in the same condition now, isn't it, as it was when you surrendered it? mrs. paine. it is. mr. jenner. would you turn to the diary page to which i have reference in connection with the first meeting with marina oswald, and that is what month and what page and what date? mrs. paine. it is on the page for february, and the only thing i can---- mr. mccloy. february what year? mrs. paine. february . mr. jenner. and the day please? mrs. paine. there is a notation on the d of february. mr. jenner. excuse me, there is a square with the figure in it indicating february , . do you have something written in there? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. what is written in there? mrs. paine. it says "everett's?" mr. jenner. is that all there is in that square? mrs. paine. that is all. mr. jenner. would you explain that and how it related to what you are now telling us? mrs. paine. i believe it refers to the invitation to come to his home. as i recall, he telephoned me twice, first to say that they might get together a group of people, hence the question mark. then he called again to say they were going to have a party, and to make the invitation definite. mr. jenner. now you used the expression "i believe." is that your best recollection at the moment? mrs. paine. that is my best recollection. mr. jenner. and i went over this with you this morning and you gave me the same explanation, did you not? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. now did that event take place? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and what is your best recollection as to the day of the month it took place? mrs. paine. i have no other way of guessing when it was except to assume that this notation means it was on the d of february. mr. jenner. and that does represent your present best recollection refreshed to the extent it is refreshed by the memorandum before you? mrs. paine. that is right, and of course this first---- mr. jenner. what day of the week was that? mrs. paine. that was a friday. mr. jenner. friday night. you attended the party did you not? mrs. paine. yes, i did. mr. mccloy. i believe you used the word friday. i don't believe she did, friday night. you said friday night. mrs. paine. it was friday evening. mr. jenner. friday evening? mrs. paine. the d was friday. i don't recall. mr. mccloy. you used the word "evening"? mrs. paine. it was an evening party. mr. jenner. it was held in mr. glover's home was it? mrs. paine. yes, it was. mr. jenner. where is his home? mrs. paine. at that time he was living in the highland park section of dallas. mr. jenner. how far from your home is that? mrs. paine. half hour drive. mr. jenner. by what means did you get to mr. glover's home? mrs. paine. i drove. mr. jenner. you owned or then had, or maybe you still have a station wagon? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. is it the same car still? mrs. paine. it is the same car. mr. jenner. and when you arrived, were either of the oswalds present? mrs. paine. i am not sure i recall accurately. i think they came a little after i arrived. mr. jenner. would you give us your best recollection of all the people, couples if you can remember them that way, and then single persons or persons there without their wives or husbands, as the case may be, that evening? mrs. paine. well, i will try. the oswalds, two were there, marina and lee, everett glover, the host, mr. and mrs. de mohrenschildt who were the friendship link between the oswalds and glover. mr. jenner. could i interrupt you there? had you known the de mohrenschildts? mrs. paine. i had never met them. i have not met them since. mr. jenner. that is the only occasion? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. that you ever saw either mr. or mrs. de mohrenschildt? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. you had no conversations, no letters, no contact whatsoever with them either before or after this party? mrs. paine. that is correct, no contact whatsoever before or after. there was a roommate of everett's. dirk, i think, i forget the name. mr. jenner. are you attempting to recall his first name or his last name? mrs. paine. his first name. i may be wrong. it was a young german fellow. mr. jenner. schmidt? mrs. paine. do you know the first name? mr. jenner. no, i don't recall the first name. mrs. paine. and he had two roommates, so that is two other single men, and i don't recall their names. mr. jenner. was each of them there? mrs. paine. they were both there. mr. jenner. there were two roommates. mrs. paine. two roommates and they were both present at the party. i should remember their names but i don't. mr. jenner. all right. mrs. paine. and there was a couple who lived in irving; again i don't recall the name. i don't believe i have seen any of these people since with the exception of one of the roommates once, and again i don't recall the name. mr. jenner. did you see the roommate the second---- mrs. paine. i may have seen him since. all these people were new to me when i came to the party with the exception of everett. mr. jenner. did you see the roommate the second time before or after november , ? mrs. paine. oh, it was before. mr. jenner. but it is a fact that none of these people who were at the party other than mr. glover had you seen or heard of? mrs. paine. before. mr. jenner. up to the time that the party was held. mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. have you exhausted your present recollection as to the people who were present on that occasion. mrs. paine. i can't get a name. the couple were living in irving, i recall that, but i don't--i have forgotten their name. mr. jenner. now the oswalds arrived shortly after the party began or at least after you arrived? mrs. paine. i believe they came with the de mohrenschildts. mr. jenner. and you were introduced, were you? mrs. paine. yes, i was introduced. mr. jenner. by whom? mrs. paine. i don't recall. it was a very informal gathering. marina was wearing slacks and mrs. de mohrenschildt also was. i doubt pains were taken with the introductions. mr. jenner. excuse me. mrs. paine. i doubt any pains were taken with the introductions. mr. jenner. how long did the party proceed? mrs. paine. it must have started something after o'clock and went until towards midnight. mr. jenner. you have an interest in square dancing and that sort of thing also. did you do any of that then? mrs. paine. no. we talked and ate. mr. jenner. did you do any madrigal singing? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. no singing that evening? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. now before i get to any specificity with respect to marina and lee oswald, was russian spoken that night by anybody? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. did you speak russian? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. who else at the party had some facility with russian in addition to lee oswald and marina oswald? mrs. paine. just the de mohrenschildts, both of them, and myself. mr. jenner. and yourself. did you mention that mr. glover had some interest in the russian language? mrs. paine. no, i don't believe he does. mr. jenner. he did not, all right. were the oswalds really the center of attention that evening? mrs. paine. i think so, yes, although you can't say that there was a single center for the entire evening. it wasn't like being invited to hear what he had to say. it was much more informal than that. mr. jenner. did you speak with marina? mrs. paine. yes, i did. mr. jenner. did you converse with her during the course of the evening? mrs. paine. very briefly. she spent the first part of the evening trying to get june to go to sleep. mr. jenner. june is her daughter? mrs. paine. the little girl with her. mr. jenner. she brought her daughter with her did she? mrs. paine. yes, and then we talked some in the kitchen with mrs. de mohrenschildt, marina and i. mr. jenner. and what subject did you ladies pursue? mrs. paine. i really can't remember. the actual conversation with marina didn't cover much time at all. i saw very little of her that evening. mr. jenner. that evening? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. can you remember any subject you talked to her about in the kitchen? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. what subjects were discussed, i assume in the living room or--where everybody was gathered? do you recall what was being pursued there in the way of conversation. mrs. paine. part of the time lee talked with people who were asking him about his trip to russia. i believe everett had told me that he had been, so i knew that when i arrived. and the fact that he had gone intending to become a citizen in the soviet union. he talked freely and with considerable interest in his subject to the three or four people around him. mr. jenner. were you gathered in that group? mrs. paine. part of the time at least i was listening to that. he spoke of the things about the soviet union that had displeased him, as for instance the censorship. he knew that it had been going on regarding his letters. mr. jenner. mrs. paine, when you talk in terms of conclusion, we have a little trouble testifying. if you will give us examples such as you just gave us about censorship, could we go back a moment to the conversation about his going to russia. during the course of that subject, in questions put to him, was anything he listed as to why he went to russia? may i have a yes or no first? do you recall anything like that? mrs. paine. i can't be certain that this is when i first got an idea about why he wanted to go or whether i learned this later. mr. jenner. does your memory serve you enough so that there is a fair possibility that--it is important to us--was the subject discussed at that gathering? mrs. paine. i think so. mr. jenner. and that is your best recollection? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. now would you give us your best recollection of what he said or what marina said, but primarily what mr. oswald said on that subject. why did he go to russia? mrs. paine. i carry the impression, and i think it is recalled from this evening---- mr. jenner. excuse me. when you say you carry the impression you are saying "it is my present recollection." mrs. paine. all right. that he spoke of himself as a marxist that evening, that he had read certain marxist books and thought that the soviet economic system was superior to ours, and wanted to go to the soviet union and live there. mr. jenner. what response was elicited from others at the meeting, agreement? mrs. paine. no; i would not say there was any agreement. people were interested. this is an unusual thing to do. and they were interested in hearing how he found soviet life, what he thought of it, whether he was pleased or disappointed. mr. jenner. would you be good enough to tell the members of the commission what mr. oswald said in those respects, to the best of your recollection? mrs. paine. he mentioned that he was displeased with the censorship, or at least he commented on it in a way that i took as unfavorable. mr. jenner. thank you, ma'am. did he say he was---- mrs. paine. what had happened, yes. mr. jenner. what censorship is he talking about? mrs. paine. he referred to a letter that had been sent to him by robert oswald that he later learned, after he had come back to the united states, had been sent. he had not received it. he judged that they had simply stopped it, and he commented that they are more apt to just take a letter than take out a piece of it and then send it on, and that censorship is more obvious. mr. jenner. all right, go on. mrs. paine. i wondered, listening to him, whether he really was---- mr. jenner. excuse me, please. before we get to what you wondered about, exhaust your recollection as to what he said, what others might have said on the subjects in his presence about which he talked. mrs. paine. that is all i can think of. mr. jenner. you mentioned, also, mrs. paine, that there was discussed that evening the subject of his return to america. mrs. paine. obviously, yes. mr. jenner. why he returned, was that subject discussed? mrs. paine. not very much, no. i can't recall any specifics relating to that. mr. jenner. all you can recall, i take it, at the moment, is that there was an allusion to the subject? mrs. paine. well, he was clearly here, yes. he had come back, and--well, i have to put it in terms of what i guess or what i feel was his reaction. i can't give you a specific recall. mr. jenner. we have no objection to your doing that. we would like to have you first state all you can recall as to what specifically happened in this instance. how did mr. oswald treat or regard--what relationship did you gather existed between marina and her husband, a cordial one as of that occasion, separating from what you learned afterward, but just this initial instance. what impression did you have? mrs. paine. almost none. there was very little contact between them during the evening. he spoke english to those that were asking them questions. she was either in the bedroom by herself trying to get the little baby to go to sleep, or in the kitchen speaking russian to the de mohrenschildts. i listened more than i spoke in that situation. mr. jenner. when mr. oswald was in the living room with you ladies and gentlemen, the conversation was in english, was it not? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. i take it, then, that when marina returned to the room russian was spoken, at least by those who had command of the russian language. mrs. paine. when she was in the same room, there was more than one conversation going on, and in two languages. mr. jenner. when anybody spoke to marina---- mrs. paine. it was in russian. mr. jenner. it was in russian. when people spoke with each other other than with marina, it was in english, is that correct? mrs. paine. that is my best recollection. mr. jenner. now, in very short compass what was your impression of mr. oswald at that initial party? mrs. paine. i thought he was pleased to be interesting to this group of people and glad to tell them about his experience, to answer their questions. he seemed open and forthright. i did wonder as he was talking about it whether he had come to the conclusion after being in the soviet union that their system was inferior. mr. jenner. inferior to ours? mrs. paine. to ours, or whether he still thought that the soviet system was a better one. his discussion of the censorship made me feel that he wanted his listeners to know that he was not blind to the defects of the soviet system, but it did not convince me that he was in favor of the american system. i was left wondering which country he thought conducted itself better. mr. jenner. did you have an interest in the oswalds at this moment wholly apart from your interest in the russian language? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. were you intellectually curious about them is all i meant. mrs. paine. oh, yes. well, it is most unusual to take such a step as he took. mr. jenner. had you had some notice in advance of this meeting, mrs. paine, of the fact that mr. oswald was at least--there had been publications of his having been a defector? mrs. paine. no; i wasn't aware of that. mr. jenner. when did you first learn of that? mrs. paine. well, a name is always given to someone who goes to the soviet union and wants to have citizenship there, isn't it, so i could well have assumed that there had been such, but i really didn't learn about it until after the assassination, i guess. no; i take it back. there was a reference now. mr. jenner. that evening? mrs. paine. specific recall. it is coming. the content of robert's letter to him, as i recall, included a clipping from the fort worth newspapers relative to his defection. mr. jenner. excuse me, mrs. paine, you are talking about a letter of robert oswald's? mrs. paine. a letter from robert to lee which lee never got but heard about when he came back to the states. mr. jenner. and that was the subject of discussion that evening? mrs. paine. that came up, so, therefore, i did know that he had been called a defector. mr. jenner. did robert refer to this letter or did someone in the meeting refer to the letter? mrs. paine. lee referred to the letter in discussion of censorship. mr. jenner. but up until that moment, you had not had any prior impression with respect to whether he had been a defector or an attempted defector? mrs. paine. well, i think, yes; i had some impression of that sort, but it came directly from lee. he said he went to the soviet union and tried to give up his american citizenship, and as i recall, he said that the american embassy did not relinquish his passport, and, therefore, he was not eligible to get soviet citizenship. mr. jenner. you are remembering more now. mrs. paine. i am. mr. jenner. i am pleased that you are, mrs. paine. he did discuss his attempts to obtain---- mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. to surrender his passport and to accomplish his soviet citizenship? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and that was openly discussed in this gathering? mrs. paine. yes. mr. mccloy. this is senator cooper, a member of the commission, mrs. paine. mrs. paine. how do you do? mr. jenner. this party, i gather, lasted approximately from to , did you say? mrs. paine. eight to eleven-thirty or twelve. mr. jenner. and the party broke up, and you went home? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. what was your overall impression of marina oswald? mrs. paine. i had very little impression altogether. i did ask for her address. mr. jenner. why did you do that? mrs. paine. and i asked if i could write her. i wanted to go visit her at her home. mr. jenner. why? mrs. paine. to talk russian. she is very hard to find, a person speaking modern russian, and in fact i know of no other, and this was an opportunity for me to again practice in the language, a rather unusual opportunity, and i was interested in meeting her and getting to know her. mr. jenner. mr. chairman, i will go back and develop this lady's interest in the russian language during the course of the examination, and her prior study of the language up to this point. she did have an abiding interest in the language at this particular point, but i wanted to get at the initial meeting first before anything further. mr. mccloy. very well. mr. jenner. you say modern russian, that marina oswald had a command of modern russian. would you please explain to us what you mean by that? mrs. paine. well, i am not in a position to judge a person, whether a person is speaking modern russian or not. my language is not that good, but she talked with--this was later, i only assumed that she had--i hoped that she spoke good russian. i didn't know at that time whether she spoke educated russian or not. shall i jump ahead? mr. jenner. well, i wish you wouldn't. you meant, then, by your expression that you hoped to find that she did speak educated russian? mrs. paine. yes; right. mr. jenner. and if she did, that then you might profit or learn from her educated russian to a greater degree than you knew it as of that time? that was your main interest at the moment? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. aside from interests in another lady or human being under those circumstances? mrs. paine. well, until i then got to know her it was my only interest. mr. jenner. yes. that is the point i was seeking to make. did you become better acquainted with the oswalds thereafter? mrs. paine. i met---- mr. jenner. did you, first, yes or no? mrs. paine. i became better acquainted with marina. mr. jenner. mr. chairman, if members of the commission--i am going to pass from this initial event--if you have any questions you would like to put to the witness now rather than my deferring it. mr. mccloy. are there any questions? the chairman. not for me. representative ford. not at this point. senator cooper. no. mr. mccloy. may i ask one? did oswald, lee oswald on this occasion express any dislike for any elements or aspects of american society? mrs. paine. i can't recall anything specific that was said. mr. mccloy. he did not indicate to this group why it was that he left the united states to go to russia originally? mrs. paine. it is hard to say how i formed this opinion, but i gathered that he disapproved of the economic system. mr. mccloy. was there anything more specific than that that he referred to? did he refer, for example, to any dislike of individuals? mrs. paine. individuals? no; i am certain there was none. mr. mccloy. in government or out of government? mrs. paine. no. mr. mccloy. your impression was that he was motivated to go to the soviet union because he didn't like the capitalist system? mrs. paine. right. mr. mccloy. and had an affinity for what might be called the marxist system, is that right? mrs. paine. right. mr. mccloy. that is all the questions that i have. mr. jenner. along those lines, mrs. paine, did he make any remarks with respect to workers in russia as compared with the position, the economic position of workers in america? did he refer to workers as a subject? mrs. paine. i don't remember. mr. jenner. i am trying to refresh your recollection. you said economics, he thought that the economic situation was superior in russia. i wonder whether he related it to the ordinary worker rather than the overall system. mrs. paine. i don't remember. representative ford. how well did marina speak english at the time you made the first acquaintance or first contact? mrs. paine. i was under the impression she spoke no english at all. representative ford. did she appear to understand any english at that time? mrs. paine. i don't believe she understood much of anything. mr. jenner. that was your definite impression? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. did you hear her speak any english words that evening? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. none whatsoever? mrs. paine. no. mr. mccloy. senator cooper? senator cooper. i believe you said a few minutes ago that you were interested in knowing why lee oswald left the united states and went to russia. did you say that? mrs. paine. well, i don't recall saying it. i suppose i was curious. mr. mccloy. i don't recall that she actually said that. she said it was an interesting situation. mrs. paine. it was unusual, i think i probably said. mr. mccloy. she used the word unusual. mrs. paine. an unusual thing to do, certainly. senator cooper. i don't want to say that you said something you didn't, but i got the impression that one of the reasons you were interested in meeting this family was in fact that this man had left the united states and gone to russia. mrs. paine. no. senator cooper. in some sense? mrs. paine. not in any sense whatever. mr. mccloy. as i recall it she did say that this was an unusual situation, and that to some extent developed your interest. this is mr. dulles, a member of the commission. senator cooper. maybe i could put it this way. perhaps we could read back and find out, but i thought that you intimated or indicated that you were interested in the fact that this man had gone to russia. mrs. paine. perhaps i can answer your question---- senator cooper. and it provoked your interest. mrs. paine. i can answer it this way. i was interested at the party to hear something of what he had to say. i was hopeful when i wrote and inquired if i could see marina where they lived; and knowing that he would be at work, that i would try to go during the week when i would have a chance simply to talk with her. senator cooper. that night he did say that he did not like the capitalist system? mrs. paine. that is my best recollection. senator cooper. were you interested, then, in finding out what it was about it he didn't like? mrs. paine. no. senator cooper. in reference to his experience in russia or for any other reason? mrs. paine. no. senator cooper. you didn't inquire further to have him elaborate on his reasons for not liking the capitalist system? mrs. paine. no. of course, it is a rather short space of time we are talking about, perhaps minutes or so or less. people were inquiring of him. mr. jenner. but others did inquire on these subjects? mrs. paine. for the most part the other people asked questions, yes. mr. jenner. on the subject that senator cooper has inquired about, is that true? mrs. paine. i don't recall. mr. jenner. now perhaps to help your recollection a little bit on that, was this roommate of whom you speak named volkmar schmidt? mrs. paine. volkmar sounds familiar. mr. jenner. do you recall a couple by the name of richard pierce, or a gentleman at least by the name of richard pierce who attended that meeting? mrs. paine. yes; that would be the other roommate, not a couple, he was single, richard pierce. mr. jenner. was there not present a miss betty macdonald? mrs. paine. which i had completely forgotten about, yes; there was. mr. jenner. and you still are unable to recall the name of the other couple? mrs. paine. i am unable to. betty macdonald i do recall lives in the same apartment building as this couple, and it is a long german sort of name, i think. mr. jenner. had you become acquainted with mr. glover through your husband? mrs. paine. well, you might say so. we both became interested in going to madrigal sings at the same time. my interest in madrigals was developed by michael, but that was before we ever moved to texas. mr. jenner. were you teaching russian at this time? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. you were not? had you done any teaching of russian prior to this occasion? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. you subsequently did some teaching; have you done some teaching of russian? mrs. paine. just this past summer. mr. jenner. yes. i will get to that in due course. did you do some translating that evening for marina? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. you did not? mrs. paine. i spoke to her very little. i was embarrassed to. mr. jenner. why was that? mrs. paine. because my russian was so poor, and the de mohrenschildts could both do it all so much better. mr. jenner. was mr. oswald's command of russian very good, also? mrs. paine. i didn't hear him speak russian that night at all. mr. jenner. oh, is that so? mrs. paine. he may have, but i don't recall. mr. jenner. he did no translating? mrs. paine. no. for her, no. mr. jenner. for marina. and on no occasion--he sat there and on none of the occasions did he translate, but, rather, mr. de mohrenschildt did the translating? mrs. paine. i don't even believe that was translating. they would address themselves to her in a separate conversation from what was going on from these three or four around him. mr. jenner. so that those who did not understand russian got nothing from it? mrs. paine. those who did not understand english got nothing from what he was saying--is that what you mean, or do you mean the other way? mr. jenner. if no one interpreted her in english, translated for her. mrs. paine. no one understood it; yes. mr. jenner. then whose who didn't understand russian---- mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. did not understand what she was saying? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. and that went on through the entire evening? mrs. paine. you must understand she was not present for, i would say, more than half of the evening. she was just with her child. mr. jenner. but while she was present. mrs. paine. there was no translation done for her benefit. mr. jenner. or for the benefit of anybody else who did not understand russian? mrs. paine. the other way; no. it is a long time ago. mr. jenner. oh, yes. was anything the subject that evening of mrs. oswald's family background? was that discussed? mrs. paine. of marina's? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. paine. no; nothing. mr. jenner. it was not discussed at anytime during that evening, the fact that she was in russia, she had been educated as, and was, a pharmacist? mrs. paine. that might have been said. i don't recall. mr. jenner. what was your reaction to the de mohrenschildts that evening? mrs. paine. i had heard from everett that they were interesting people, that they had gone on a hiking tour through mexico taking pictures as they went. i learned or had known from everett, also, in this one telephone conversation, that he was a geologist, a free lancer. mrs. de mohrenschildt seemed somewhat protective toward marina in the sense of wanting her to understand what was--wanting to talk with her, to include her. mr. de mohrenschildt talked about his past life some in english. mr. jenner. his speaking of his past life was in english? mrs. paine. was in english. i recalled to him his first wife who was also a quaker. i remember he said that. mr. jenner. when was your next contact with either marina oswald or lee oswald? mrs. paine. i wrote a letter, a note to marina at the address i had been given, and got a note back saying, "we have moved. this is the new address. come in perhaps a week." from that time. she wanted to get the house cleaned up before i came. mr. jenner. they lived in dallas, did they not? mrs. paine. that was in dallas; yes. mr. jenner. on this february occasion they were then living on neely street in dallas? mrs. paine. i believe they moved just in that period that i had the previous address, and as soon as i wrote, the first letter i got back gave the neely street address. mr. jenner. you have recorded that, have you not, in your address book? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. which i will follow up in a moment. do you have a copy of the letter that you wrote to marina? mrs. paine. no. that initial letter asking if i could come over? i don't believe i do. mr. jenner. not having---- mrs. paine. i have her reply. mr. jenner. you do have a reply? mrs. paine. i have her reply. mr. jenner. do you have it with you? mrs. paine. she drew a map. yes. mr. jenner. may i have it, please? mrs. paine. do you want it right now? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. paine. all right. wait--no; perhaps i have it at the hotel. i don't think it is here. i didn't think i would be before the commission today at all. mr. jenner. we will pass that. you can get it tonight. mrs. paine. yes; i am certain i have it. mr. dulles. that was written in russian, i assume. mrs. paine. oh, yes; in my letter to her, bad russian. mr. jenner. as long as you have the letter i don't want you to attempt to summarize it then, but you did write her a note in which you sought to come see her. she responded advising you of a change of address. there would be some delay, i gather, because she wished to get her home in order, having just moved. and this exchange of letters took place approximately when? mrs. paine. it was early march some time. mr. jenner. ? mrs. paine. i think her letter is postmarked the th of march. mr. jenner. ? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. after that exchange of letters, did you see marina oswald? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. did you go to her home or did she come to yours? mrs. paine. i drove to her home. there would be no way for her to come. mr. jenner. had you had another exchange of letters before you went to her home? mrs. paine. i don't believe so. mr. jenner. you just waited a few days, guessed how long it would take her to have her home in order, and you visited her, am i correct in my summary? mrs. paine. she suggested tuesday, as i recall in her letter, but what tuesday i don't know. if it was written the th that would be tuesday the th. there is no notation on my calendar. mr. jenner. but you do have her response to your letter? mrs. paine. yes; that is what i have. mr. jenner. in the hotel. we will get that this evening. was mr. oswald home when you visited her? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. on the next occasion? mrs. paine. he was not. mr. jenner. did you make a description in your calendar with respect to this visit? mrs. paine. i judge not. mr. jenner. do you find any in your calendar? mrs. paine. with respect to this visit? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. paine. i don't believe so. mr. jenner. by the way, that calendar is all in your handwriting, isn't it? mrs. paine. it is. mr. jenner. mr. chairman, i offer in evidence as exhibit no. the document that has been given that exhibit number. mr. mccloy. it may be admitted. (the document heretofore marked for identification as commission exhibit no. , was received in evidence.) representative ford. what time of day was this visit, mrs. paine? mrs. paine. it was midmorning, up to lunchtime. she had hoped i could stay through lunch but i wanted to get back so my children could have naps. mr. jenner. was there anybody at home to care for your children when you made this visit? mrs. paine. i took them. mr. jenner. oh, you took them. mrs. paine. therefore, i wanted to get them home to take naps. mr. jenner. what is the driving time from your home in irving---- mrs. paine. thirty-five to forty minutes. mr. jenner. to the neely street address of the oswalds? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. i take it--or was mr. oswald home? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. just marina? and that visit--tell us about that visit, please. mrs. paine. i fear my recollection may meld one or two visits that occurred in march. mr. jenner. it might be a good idea, then,--go ahead and tell us about them in a melded form. mrs. paine. all right. i recall we walked out to a nearby park. mr. dulles. in both cases? mrs. paine. i am not sure. mr. dulles. you think so? mrs. paine. anyway, i recall walking to the park, and i think this was the first visit, and we sat and talked. it was warm weather, march, in dallas. and the children played on the park equipment, and we talked, and she told me that she was expecting a baby, and asked me not to talk about it among the russian community. mr. jenner. excuse me. had anything been said on that subject when you first met marina oswald the night of february ? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. nothing? this was your first notice of that? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and she told you not--would you repeat that, please? mrs. paine. she told me that she was expecting a child. mr. jenner. she told you not to do what? mrs. paine. not to tell members of the russian-speaking community in dallas. she preferred for it not to be publicly known, so to speak. mr. jenner. were you in contact with the russian-speaking community in dallas? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. did you say that to her on that occasion? mrs. paine. well, it is a contact i could have had. it was reasonable for her to assume i might be. mr. jenner. but you said nothing in response to that. did you reassure her? mrs. paine. i just said i wouldn't talk about it, that it was up to her to make such an announcement when she felt like it. mr. mccloy. may i ask a question at this point? you said lee oswald was not there. a little earlier in your testimony you said you hoped he would not be there. mrs. paine. that is correct. mr. mccloy. why did you say that? was it because you took any dislike to his being there or was it merely because you wanted exclusive contact with marina, or both? mrs. paine. i certainly wanted to make the contact with marina. she had not appeared as a person at all at the party. i couldn't tell what sort of person she was, and i felt meeting alone with her would make an opportunity both to speak the language and to find out what sort of person she was. mr. mccloy. go on. did you have any further motivation for that wish? did you take any dislike to him? mrs. paine. not an active dislike, but i didn't like him. i think we can say that. mr. jenner. and you gathered that impression the evening of february ? mrs. paine. it is very hard to know whether i gathered it then or in terms of things she told me then after we met, and i will outline them. mr. jenner. yes; we will get into those. mrs. paine. i would say it was more formed later. mr. jenner. and in your responding to mr. mccloy's question you were attempting to transport yourself back to that particular occasion and not be affected by the course of events that had taken place in the meantime, am i correct about that? mrs. paine. i tried to. mr. jenner. to the best of your ability. tell us a little more, then, to the extent you have a recollection what occurred and what was said in the park on that occasion. mrs. paine. well, i recall that we talked, and, as i said, it may be the first visit or it may have been the first and the second melded in my mind. she said that she was expecting a baby. she said that lee didn't want her to learn english. he was not encouraging her to learn english or helping her with it, that he spoke only russian to her and to their baby june. and she told me--now, let me say that my calendar does show a notation on the th of march, it says, "marina" and i judge i went again to see her at her home on that day, or brought her to my house, i am not certain which. but i judge, also, that this was the second visit. mr. jenner. i suggest that you might have melded these a moment ago. now i wish you would keep these apart for the moment. mrs. paine. so far as i can. mr. jenner. and stick with the occasion in the park first and exhaust your recollection. mrs. paine. well, i was impressed, talking with her in the park, with what i felt to be her need to have a friend. this was virtually our first meeting, but she confided to me something that she didn't want generally known among the russian segment. mr. jenner. that was her pregnancy? mrs. paine. of dallas. she inquired of me, a young woman, about birth control methods, and she said that she felt--well, clearly this pregnancy had surprised her, but she said that she didn't believe in abortion, and didn't want to consider such a course. mr. jenner. have you exhausted your recollection? mrs. paine. that is all i recall; yes. i do not recall whether it was this time or the next time, it may well have been the next time, that she told me that---- mr. jenner. excuse me, please. mrs. paine. all right, sir. mr. jenner. i would like to stick with this. when mrs. oswald, this is your first visit, she related to you and said that her husband did not wish her to acquire any command of the english language, what did you say? did you express yourself in some fashion as to why? didn't that seem curious to you? mrs. paine. i likely said that---- mr. jenner. excuse me? mrs. paine. i don't recall. mr. jenner. it is best you don't guess. give us your best recollection. mrs. paine. my best recollection is that she did most of the talking because she could. my russian was bad enough that if she talked i was happy. mr. jenner. did you feel any embarrassment because you were---- mrs. paine. oh, a terrible embarrassment. mr. jenner. you did? mrs. paine. it is a terrible impediment to talking and to friendship. mr. jenner. i wish you would elaborate on that because i am sure the members of the commission would like to have your mental reaction to what you thought was your limited command of the russian language and whether it interfered with communication between you. mrs. paine. it interfered very markedly. mr. jenner. would you elaborate? mrs. paine. i could think of many more things to say than i could think of the words to use in order to say it in russian. i want to keep jumping ahead to illustrate this. but just it was very difficult for me to communicate. i understand much more readily than i speak, so that i could understand what she was saying to me easily, especially as she took care to see that she used small words and made herself understood. but it was very difficult for me just to speak. i could not possibly have reacted to her as i would to someone else in english, as i would if she had been speaking english. mr. dulles. at this time you felt that she could not gain very much if you talked to her in english? mrs. paine. i was certain of that, yes. mr. dulles. but later she had improved, apparently? mrs. paine. after the assassination, to my knowledge. mr. dulles. that was after the assassination? mrs. paine. yes. i never knew her to speak english at all. mr. dulles. or to understand? i wasn't speaking of just speaking, but about the comprehension of it. mrs. paine. well, she said to me in november that she has changed from never listening to an english conversation to giving it some of her attention because she is able to pick up some words. you know how if you don't understand anything there is no point even---- mr. dulles. i personally got the impression when she was here that she understood a good deal of english. mrs. paine. i believe she does, yes. mr. dulles. but this time she did not have that facility at all? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. did you not think it was curious that her husband was adverse to her acquiring some facility with the english language? mrs. paine. i thought it was distinctly thoughtless on his part, even cruel. mr. jenner. did you discuss it with her to the extent that you could in your limited command of russian? mrs. paine. i think the easiest thing was to agree with what she was saying about it, agree with what she was saying. mr. jenner. which was what? mrs. paine. which is that this wasn't the way it should be and i certainly agreed. mr. jenner. she complained, did she? mrs. paine. she complained, yes. mr. jenner. i see. did she express an interest, then, in acquiring some facility? mrs. paine. not against his wishes, no. she didn't express an interest. in learning english through me, for instance. mr. jenner. yes. she showed no interest unlike the interest you had in her helping you with russian, she showed no interest at that moment in learning from you some command of the english language? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. now you think the second occasion occurring in your calendar entry there was possibly march ? mr. jenner. and what is the entry? mrs. paine. it says, "marina". mr. jenner. and that is the only word? mrs. paine. that is all it says. mr. jenner. in that square? mrs. paine. probably i went again to her home. mr. jenner. excuse me. does that refresh your recollection as to anything on that occasion? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. it does not? mrs. paine. i am guessing, again, that this was the second meeting. i think i went to her home twice before i carried her from her place to my home, which was considerably more of an event, since it was or minutes each way, going twice in one day. mr. jenner. you say carry? mrs. paine. carry, that is a good texas term for driving a person in a car. senator cooper. i must say there, that is an old term even in kentucky. you take some person some place you carry them. mrs. paine. you carry them; yes. mr. jenner. it is an odd expression to me. mrs. paine. i have been in texas longer than i think. mr. jenner. i take it then there were two occasions when you visited her. mrs. paine. i believe there were two down there, and then i asked her, went to pick her up and brought her to my home and we spent a portion of the day at my home, and i then took her back. mr. jenner. this was at your invitation? mrs. paine. yes; surely. mr. jenner. had you by this time--let us take the march affair, occasion--had you some feeling of affinity or liking for marina? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. as a person? mrs. paine. i did feel that she was in a difficult position from the first i met her. mr. jenner. now, chronologically, would you in your own words, so that i don't suggest anything to you, what was the next occasion? the next time it was under circumstances in which you went to her home in your station wagon, picked her up and brought her to your home? mrs. paine. it was probably then that she mentioned to me that lee wanted her to go back to the soviet union, was asking her to go back. mr. jenner. he mentioned this subject as early as that, did he not? mrs. paine. this was still in march. mr. jenner. she did? mrs. paine. she did, yes; and said that she didn't want to go. mr. jenner. the commission is interested in that. would you please relate it? mrs. paine. she said she did not want to go back, that he asked her to go back, told her, perhaps, to go back. mr. jenner. state just as accurately---- mrs. paine. as she described it i felt---- mr. jenner. just what she said now, please. mrs. paine. he told her he wanted to send her back with june. mr. jenner. alone? mrs. paine. to the soviet union. as she described it, i judged that meant---- mr. jenner. please---- mrs. paine. a divorce---- mr. jenner. instead of saying as she described it tell us what she said, if you can. mrs. paine. she said that she had written to the soviet embassy to ask about papers to go back, and received a reply from them saying, "why do you want to go back?" and she said she just didn't answer that letter because she didn't want to go back, and that that was where the matter stood at that time. mr. jenner. she had not answered the letter? mrs. paine. the inquiry from the embassy. she did not answer it. mr. dulles. did she say whether or not she showed that answer from the soviet embassy to her husband? mrs. paine. no; she didn't say. mr. jenner. did i understand you to say that marina said to you that she thought that meant a divorce? mrs. paine. i will state again that she felt she was being sent back to stay back, that he would stay here, that this amounted to the end of the marriage for them, but not legally done. mr. jenner. i see. and did she express any opinion of opposition to that? mrs. paine. she particularly was opposed to going back. it was leaving the united states that she was opposed to. mr. jenner. she wanted to stay here, did she? mrs. paine. yes; very much so. mr. jenner. i ask you this general question, then, mrs. paine: during all of your contact with marina oswald, did she ever express any view other than that one of wanting to remain in america? mrs. paine. no; she did not. mr. jenner. what did she? was she affirmative about it? mrs. paine. very. mr. jenner. of wanting to stay in this country? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. now, what did you say when she related that her husband wanted her to return to russia, and she thought to remain in russia. did it elicit some curiosity from you? mrs. paine. curiosity? it elicited anger at lee that he would presume to drop his responsibilities so preemptorily. mr. jenner. did you discuss it with her? mrs. paine. i wrote a letter to her in an effort to gather my words. i couldn't just discuss it with her. my language was not that good. what i wanted to do was offer her an alternative to being sent back, an economic alternative, and i thought for some time and thought over a week about inviting her to live with me. i was alone with my two children at the time, as an alternative to being sent back. if he thought he couldn't support her or didn't care to or whatever reason he had, i simply wanted to say there was an alternative to her going back, that she could stay and live with me if she wanted to. i wrote such a letter, really, to gather---- mr. jenner. do you have it? mrs. paine. yes; i do. this letter was never sent. mr. jenner. is that also at the hotel? mrs. paine. i don't know. it may be here. i can look if you want. this letter was never sent and never mentioned to her. i wrote it so that i would have the words before me to use if it seemed appropriate to me to make the invitation, you see, a way of gathering enough of the language, enough russian, and to say what i wanted to say. and this letter is dated the th of april. mr. jenner. the th of april? mrs. paine. and i know i spent at least a week thinking about it. i talked it over with michael before i wrote it, and it is plainly marked "never sent" on the letter. i carried it with me, as i recall i carried it once to the apartment so that if---- mr. jenner. to what apartment? mrs. paine. to their apartment on neely street, so that if it seemed appropriate i could hand it to her, you see. i could make this invitation at home with time and a dictionary in hand, and then let her read it. it was ever so much easier than just trying to say it. mr. mccloy. though you never delivered it, did you ever speak from it to her? mrs. paine. when she was staying with me the last few days of april and the first week of may, i made, yes, a verbal invitation of that sort, and in the april letter, i have just gone over this correspondence or i wouldn't recall what it said, but---- mr. jenner. excuse me, mrs. paine. i think we can take the time to see if you have the letter in your bag. mrs. paine. i am sorry that i feel precipitated into a discussion of this correspondence, and i would rather--no, it is not here--go at it--there are several things i want to say about it. i began to mention it to mr. jenner this morning and thought we would have a whole afternoon to talk more. mr. jenner. we will have time tonight, mrs. paine. mrs. paine. you will have time tonight? mr. jenner. i thought mr. redlich might look at the letter. i didn't want to delay the commission. you do have it at hand? mrs. paine. it is not here. it is at the hotel. mr. jenner. i would like to return to something else for the moment, then, first. what reasons did marina give, if she gave any, as to why her husband wished her to return to russia? what did she say on that subject? mrs. paine. she didn't say. mr. jenner. nothing at all? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. no explanation? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. on that occasion? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. i meant by that last question to imply that there might have been another occasion subsequently in which the subject was discussed again in which she did state what mr. oswald's reasons were, if any? mrs. paine. she never stated any reasons. mr. jenner. never? mrs. paine. she implied that it was because he didn't want her. mr. jenner. he didn't what? mrs. paine. want her. mr. jenner. what is the date of this letter, april ? mrs. paine. yes. mr. mccloy. we will take a brief recess. (brief recess.) mr. jenner. now, would you turn to your calendar, please. what is the next day, date, in your calendar, in which you have an entry? mrs. paine. regarding the oswalds? mr. jenner. regarding the oswalds. mrs. paine. it is april , tuesday. mr. jenner. what is the entry? mrs. paine. "marina and lee dinner." mr. jenner. all right. now, i take it that by this time, that is, up to april you had had several visits with marina and you had reached the point at which you invited them to your home for dinner? mrs. paine. yes. now, michael had never met either. by this time i had talked to him. i had indeed invited them to stay indefinitely. mr. jenner. yes. mrs. paine. and so i wanted him to meet them and invited them both to come to dinner. mr. jenner. excuse me, mrs. paine, if i seem presumptuous. mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. but you have stated several times, and now you state you inquired of your husband as to whether you could invite marina to stay with you. didn't you think that was a little presumptuous on your part to invite a man's wife to come to live with you? mrs. paine. well, toward lee it was presumptuous. mr. jenner. beg pardon? mrs. paine. presumptuous in relation to lee. mr. jenner. in relation to lee? mrs. paine. indeed it is. well, i will have to refer again to the letter of april where i said i didn't want to hurt lee by such an invitation, but that if they were unhappy, if their marital situation was similar to mine, and this is not specifically in the letter, but if he just did not want to live with her, that i would have offered this as an alternative, really to both of them. i didn't want to get into a position of competition with lee for his wife. i thought about that, and thought he might be very offended. mr. jenner. it is possible he might very well be. mrs. paine. yes, it is possible he even might have been violent, but i didn't think anything about that. mr. jenner. did you have any impression of him up to this moment on this score? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. as a man of temper? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. violence? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. none of that? mrs. paine. no. i had met him once. mr. jenner. you invited the oswalds to dinner on the evening of april ? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. what day of the week was that? mrs. paine. tuesday. mr. jenner. did anything occur that evening? mrs. paine. well, michael picked them up. mr. jenner. who did? mrs. paine. michael picked them up. mr. jenner. your husband? mrs. paine. at the neely street address. has he talked about that? it didn't come up? mr. jenner. i don't know. i haven't the slightest notion. i was talking with you. mrs. paine. should i go ahead? i just want to get this first impression into the record somewhere if he hasn't already. representative ford. i think it would be helpful if you gave your impression of his impression. mr. jenner. of his impression. mrs. paine. all right. this i have learned since the assassination, he didn't give me this impression as at the time we didn't talk that much. mr. jenner. please, you are not giving us your impression of his impression on this occasion, but rather your impression of what he said to you after the assassination. mrs. paine. you still want it? representative ford. i think it is important. mr. dulles. let us hear it. mrs. paine. he said--you must understand, that not living together we talked together very little. i am sure he would have given me his impression if we had been having dinner together the next day afterwards, you see. he went over and marina was not yet ready. he thought that lee was somewhat thoughtless. while doing absolutely nothing to help her get ready, get the baby's things together, prepare himself, he was quite impatient, thought she should be ready, and gave orders while he himself sat down and talked to michael, and michael carried the impression that lee was somewhat thoughtless. mr. dulles. what did you do? that was about a half hour--what did you do during that period? mrs. paine. i was at the house preparing the dinner. mr. dulles. you were at home? mrs. paine. yes. it has to be my impression of his impressions. i don't recall the evening too well, the evening of the second. i do recall we certainly had dinner together. i can't recall what the predominant language was. lee and michael, of course, talked in english. not wanting to exclude her entirely from the conversation, i made opportunity to talk with her in russian after the meal was over. she and i did the dishes and talked in russian, and we were in the kitchen while michael was talking to lee in english in the living room, so i do not know what was said then between the two of them. mr. jenner. how did your husband get along with lee oswald? mrs. paine. well, you probably have something on that. mr. jenner. what was your impression? i want your impression of how your husband got along. mrs. paine. okay. he was initially very interested in learning what sort of man this was who had taken such a dramatic and unusual step to go to the soviet union and attempt to renounce his citizenship. he thought here is a person that must have thought things out for himself, a very individualistic person, not a follower of the masses, and he wanted to hear what the ideology was that led lee to this step. michael has told me that he very soon felt that there wasn't much ideology or thought, foundation. that michael had thought he might be able to learn from this man something and find at least good thinking going on or inquiry, but he didn't find it. he rather found very rigid adherence to a few principles such as the principle of the capitalist exploiting the worker, and that this was a great moral failing of the capitalistic society. michael's own feeling was that lee's view of morality was very different from michael's. mr. jenner. in what respect, mrs. paine? mrs. paine. michael recalls having--now, this is later. this is not that evening. did you expect it was? this is answering your question of michael's impression of lee. mr. jenner. i wanted his initial impression. mrs. paine. all initial impressions. well, i have passed that. i have gone considerably past it, in fact. mr. jenner. i see. how many times had you seen marina up to this moment, that is, up to april ? mrs. paine. it was two or three times besides the initial party in february. mr. jenner. and your best recollection is that this was a nice, pleasant evening, and that was about all? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. did your husband take the oswald's home that evening? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. this is the second. when was the next occasion that you had contact with either of the oswalds? mrs. paine. there is a notation of the eighth of april. i am looking on my calendar, i have no other way of knowing, and one also on the tenth which has an arrow going to the eleventh. mr. jenner. i would like to ask you a little bit about that before you go into it. would you describe for the commission now the condition, the physical condition, of your calendar there? mrs. paine. physical? mr. jenner. yes. there is a square, and in the square there is written something. mrs. paine. "marina" is written this time in russian. i am improving, it seems. mr. jenner. in russian. it is in the square dated april . mrs. paine. i am talking now about the square on april . there is a notation "marina". mr. jenner. is that all there is in that square? mrs. paine. that is all that is in that square. mr. jenner. yes. mrs. paine. then the only thing that appears in the square for april is the name "marina" in russian, and an arrow pointing, an arrow from it pointing, to april . mr. jenner. now, go back, if you will, to april . mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. does that refresh your recollection or stimulate you as to whether you had any contact with marina on that day or whether it was prearranged and what the occasion was? mrs. paine. certainly, it says that there had been an arrangement to get together. whether we did i don't know. mr. jenner. i thought you had read everything that appeared in that square. is there more than just the word "marina" in the square? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. that is my recollection. but that refreshes your recollection in turning that, that was a prearranged meeting? mrs. paine. well, all of these were, since there was no way over the telephone. mr. jenner. is your recollection sufficiently refreshed to state whether the meeting was a visit by you to her or she to you? mrs. paine. no; i don't recall. mr. jenner. does it have a relation to the letter that you say that you prepared dated april , which is the day before? mrs. paine. i might have taken it that day, i don't know. yes; it is entirely possible. i hadn't thought about it. mr. jenner. but anyhow my mentioning those two events together, does that refresh your recollection or stimulate it more specifically on the subject? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. it does not. you have no recollection beyond the fact that on april you have an entry with the word "marina." is that written in russian? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. the word "marina" in russian, it doesn't stimulate you in any respect, does not stimulate your recollection? representative ford. at the time of the dinner at your home on april , following that or during that time, do you recollect any discussion about general walker between your husband and lee harvey oswald? mrs. paine. no; i don't recollect any such discussion. representative ford. that night? mrs. paine. if there was any it would have had to have been in the living room while i was talking to marina in russian in the kitchen. i didn't hear any reference to it. representative ford. you didn't hear any discussion that evening between your husband and lee oswald about general walker? mrs. paine. no. representative ford. did your husband ever tell you subsequently of any such discussion? mrs. paine. i don't recall it. there was one reference, but that was later. representative ford. that was later. do you recall when? mrs. paine. yes. it would be the friday after u.n. day, october the th. representative ford. that was october ? mrs. paine. yes. representative ford. and this was april d? mrs. paine. . representative ford. . mr. jenner. do you recall any discussion of general walker at all with marina or in the presence of marina or with lee oswald or in his presence in your home or their home or even out in the parkway on the subject of general walker up to april , ? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. none whatsoever? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. any discussion between yourself and your husband on that day? mrs. paine. no; none that i recall. mr. jenner. do you subscribe to a newspaper? mrs. paine. at that time i subscribed to the irving local paper. mr. jenner. is that an evening or a morning paper? mrs. paine. at that time it was a morning paper. mr. jenner. morning paper. do you have a recollection of being aware in the edition of april of an attack on general walker the night before? mrs. paine. it is more likely that i heard it on television. i think i must have heard it. mr. jenner. you have a television and a radio? mrs. paine. we get news from the television. mr. jenner. and you were aware of the attack on general walker the evening of april . did you see marina oswald on the th? mrs. paine. i can only guess so judging from these marks on my calendar. mr. jenner. we would like your very best recollection, please, mrs. paine? mrs. paine. i don't recall; i just don't recall. mr. jenner. you just don't have any present recollection that you did see her on the th or you didn't? you just have no--you are blank? mrs. paine. i can only guess from the calendar, that is all. mr. jenner. other than that entry you have no recollection whatsoever? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. dulles. if you had seen her would it have been at her house, at her apartment? mrs. paine. i don't even know that. mr. dulles. wouldn't you have remembered four trips back and forth? mrs. paine. i remember that i made such trips, but which day it is, it is very difficult to know. mr. dulles. i see. but you think--have you had a recollection about seeing her at this time, without pinpointing it? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. was there any discussion between you and marina on the subject of the general walker incident? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. none whatsoever? mrs. paine. i am trying to recall now when she first told me that lee was out of work. the next note i have of having seen them, and you must understand this calendar by no means tells everything i have done or would even be accurate about what i have done on account of what has happened, but at some point she told me that he was out of work. mr. jenner. was it some point near the time we are now discussing? mrs. paine. near the time we are now discussing. i am trying to get some content in order to answer the question of what happened, did i see her, what happened. the next date i have down for seeing her is a picnic on the th of april. mr. jenner. had she told you---- mrs. paine. i don't recall it having been that long, but it probably was, between the th and the picnic. it was before the picnic she told that he was out of work and had been for a few days before he told her. now, you probably know when he was out of work, but i don't, when he lost his job. so i am judging that possibly this was mentioned on the th that he was out of work, because we did plan to have a picnic on the th which included lee, but it could have been even that day that she told me that he was out of work and had been for some time. mr. jenner. was there any day on or about this time, the th or th or th, within those days, that you saw marina, where your attention was arrested by her being upset or disturbed? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. in any fashion? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. now, i notice in your calendar and entry april , "st. marks open again noon." is that the school your children attend? mrs. paine. no, they are both preschool age. it must have been an easter--my children are preschool age. mr. jenner. what was the occasion of your making that entry? mrs. paine. i probably wanted to visit the class. mr. jenner. what class? mrs. paine. a language class. this is a school at which i subsequently taught. last summer i taught at st. marks school. mr. jenner. you were visiting the class in advance of your teaching? mrs. paine. so i probably wanted to visit--no, just any language class there, and inquired, i judge, you see, you will find on good friday no school, too, the th. so i was marking when the easter vacation was for st. marks in order to make plans sometime later to go and visit. mr. jenner. all right. would you return to april , that dinner. is that entry "dinner at "? i couldn't quite figure out---- mrs. paine. i believe that is the . mr. jenner. seven. was anything said that night about lee oswald's work? mrs. paine. no; nothing. mr. jenner. about his job? mrs. paine. well, i asked him how could i reach them if i had to call off a get-together. i had no way of telephoning marina. if the child got sick how would i tell her i am not coming. so i said could i have his telephone at work in order to reach them through him if i felt it necessary some time, and he wrote down for me the address and telephone number of the place where he worked. this was on the d of april. mr. jenner. and that, i will turn to that, if i might, and that will be commission exhibit , and we have a like photograph of the exhibit. is all of that exhibit in your handwriting? mrs. paine. well, i have just said he wrote down jaggars-chiles-stovall. mr. jenner. there is one entry that is in his handwriting? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. give us the letter page of that, will you? mrs. paine. the letter page, "o" for oswald. mr. jenner. "o" for oswald. the entry jaggars-chiles-stovall was written by mr. oswald; all other entries on that page are in your handwriting; is that correct? mrs. paine. that is correct. mr. jenner. are all other entries in the entire address book in your handwriting? mrs. paine. did we go over it? what did i say? mr. jenner. yes, we did this morning. mrs. paine. i would guess so. i don't recall. did we say so this morning? i will have to look it over again. mr. jenner. i am not permitted to testify, mrs. paine. mrs. paine. all right. you want me to look right now? i usually write the addresses down myself, so it would be quite unusual for someone else to. mr. jenner. is this address book in the same condition now as it was when you gave it to the police? mrs. paine. i did not give it to the police, they took it, and i didn't know it was gone until later that day. it is in the same condition except it has been through the finger-printing process. mr. jenner. i am particularly interested---- mrs. paine. yes; it is all in my handwriting. mr. jenner. i am particularly interested in the entries on the page lettered "o," and i want to especially ask you whether that page is in the same condition now as it was when it was---- mrs. paine. yes; it is. mr. dulles. could i ask the witness why there are certain lines half horizontal, half perpendicular there, certain of these? mrs. paine. it means it is an old address, no longer applicable. mr. dulles. i see. mr. jenner. mr. dulles, you were referring to the page lettered "o"? mr. dulles. that is correct; yes. mr. jenner. i had digressed or interrupted at that point because you, for the first time, made reference to an entry in your address book made by mr. oswald. mr. chairman, i offer in evidence the document identified as exhibit . mr. mccloy. where is that---- mr. jenner. rather. that is the address book. mr. mccloy. it may be admitted. (commission exhibit no. was received in evidence.) mr. jenner. and you were relating that you inquired as to how you could reach them if you had to reach them, and mr. lee oswald wrote---- mrs. paine. his work, the name of the company and the telephone number. mr. jenner. i take it they did not have a telephone? mrs. paine. they did not; no. mr. jenner. did they ever have a telephone even when they were in new orleans? mrs. paine. no; they did not. mr. jenner. when they came back again to dallas, they did not? mrs. paine. they did not. (at this point in the proceedings senator cooper left the commission hearing room.) mr. jenner. now, was the april d occasion the second time that you had seen lee---- mrs. paine. yes, sir. mr. jenner. oswald? you had not seen him in the interim? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. when next did you see him? mrs. paine. i next saw him on the th of april at a picnic at a park near where they lived on neely street. mr. jenner. in between certainly the d of april and, possibly, in that period from the th, th, th and th, let us take that period up, until the time of the th, did you see marina oswald in between? mrs. paine. did you say between the d---- mr. jenner. between the th and th through the th. mrs. paine. i guess not; between the th or so and the th. mr. jenner. is that your best recollection? mrs. paine. so far as i know, no. mr. jenner. how did you communicate with her about the picnic? mrs. paine. probably by letter. mr. jenner. by a letter. do you have that letter? mrs. paine. i have--i don't know if i have it. i have a letter that closes "october th" in my hand, a scratch note. mr. jenner. could i look at that correspondence this evening? mrs. paine. at the same time. mr. jenner. thank you. then the next occasion was when you had the picnic on the th, is that right? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. i notice in that entry what looks to me like "miss mary : ." what is the significance of that? mrs. paine. that is probably going out in the evening. it had no relationship with the picnic at all. it has a relationship with a dinner group which is at the time, you see the line "dinner group-- : miss mary," who is a babysitter. mr. jenner. that entry has nothing to do with the oswalds? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. without elaborating, please, mrs. paine, what would the subjects of discussion between you and marina and mr. oswald have been at the picnic? mrs. paine. at the picnic? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. paine. he spent most of his time fishing. we saw almost nothing of him and heard virtually nothing from him. i was impressed with his unwillingness to be sociable really in this situation. he came to eat when it was time to, and complained about the food. mr. jenner. did he complain about the food? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. was your husband present at this picnic? mrs. paine. no; he was not. mr. dulles. did you supply the food? mrs. paine. no; marina had cooked it. he complained about it. he caught a fish, as i recall, and took it home to be cleaned. i hardly know who would clean it. representative ford. who did clean it? mrs. paine. i don't know. i left about that time. mr. jenner. what discussion occurred between you and lee oswald, if any, with respect to his life in russia on that occasion? mrs. paine. none. mr. jenner. did you have any conversation with him other than some pleasantries? mrs. paine. i don't believe so. i can't even think of the pleasantry. mr. dulles. as i understand it, as you were sitting there, the picnic took place in the park---- mrs. paine. yes. mr. dulles. what was he doing? mrs. paine. he was way over at the lake fishing. mr. dulles. he was over fishing at the lake? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. did any further discussion occur between you and marina on that occasion, or on any interim occasion, of mr. oswald's desire to have her return to russia or the fact that she did not wish the russian emigré group to know she was pregnant and was about to have a child? mrs. paine. i don't recall specifically. i did feel that it wasn't a particularly happy occasion. i don't recall it with lightness. mr. jenner. was he out of work at that time or not? mrs. paine. yes; he was out of work. i knew at that time he was out of work. whether i found out that morning or the previous time i had seen her i don't recall. i only recall when she said he was out of work she also said he had been out of work for a week or a few days before he told her. mr. jenner. i would like to have you draw on your recollection as closely as you can. did you learn of his being out of work from him or from marina? mrs. paine. from her. mr. jenner. what did she say on that subject as to whether he was discharged or whether he had left his employment, or did she say anything in that area? mrs. paine. i judged he had been discharged. mr. jenner. give me your best recollection of what she said. mrs. paine. do you want something else? mr. jenner. give me your best recollection of what she said, mrs. paine. mrs. paine. i can't recall it that closely. mr. jenner. you next have an entry on april reading "lee and marina." do you find it? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. was that a meeting with lee harvey oswald and his wife, marina? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. where was that held? mrs. paine. that was to be a visit at the apartment on neely street. mr. jenner. at their apartment? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. did it take place? mrs. paine. i arrived and found that he was packed to go to new orleans. mr. jenner. was this a surprise to you? mrs. paine. this was a distinct surprise. mr. jenner. had there been some communication between you and the oswalds about your visiting them on the th of april? mrs. paine. it had been arranged that i would come over to visit as much as these other visits had been arranged, just with marina to talk. mr. jenner. had you had any visit with marina between the th of april and the th? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. none whatsoever? mrs. paine. none. mr. jenner. had you arranged on the th to visit on the th? mrs. paine. probably. mr. jenner. that is your best recollection? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. what time of day did you arrive, or night? mrs. paine. mid-morning, perhaps around . mr. jenner. and then you found him packed or packing to leave? mrs. paine. he was fully packed. i was evidently expected. i and my car, because he asked if i could take these bags and duffel bags, suitcases, to the bus station for him. mr. jenner. yes. mrs. paine. where he would buy a ticket to go to new orleans, and he said he had not been able to---- mr. jenner. what he said to you is what i am interested in. mrs. paine. that he said---- mr. jenner. yes. mrs. paine. he said he had not been able to find work in dallas, around dallas, and marina suggested going to new orleans, which is where he had been born. mr. dulles. he said she had suggested? mrs. paine. yes. that is my best recollection. mr. jenner. was marina present now while he is relating this to you? mrs. paine. yes; i think so. mr. jenner. she was present. was he speaking in russian or in english? mrs. paine. i think he must have been speaking in english when he asked me to take the things to the bus station and explained that he was going to look for work. mr. jenner. your best recollection is that this was in english? mrs. paine. i don't recall. it could well have been in russian also. he didn't like to speak english to me. he preferred to speak russian. the chairman. to you? mrs. paine. to me; yes. representative ford. did he ever indicate why? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. i think you said to me this morning, and please correct me if my recollection is not good, that he always spoke to you in russian. mrs. paine. with, perhaps, a couple of rare exceptions, yes, he spoke to me in russian. when i tried to teach him to drive i tried to explain to him, proceeded to explain to him in english. mr. jenner. excuse me, you tried to teach him to do what? mrs. paine. to drive. this is later. mr. jenner. drive, yes. mrs. paine. but he would answer me in russian, which is a way of getting the person to go back to russian. but i couldn't explain driving in russian, so i did it in english. mr. jenner. that incident, mrs. paine, is very important, and we will get to that at a later stage as to your efforts to teach him to drive. going back to this th of april, there was here, this was, a complete surprise to you. you arrived at the home and this man was all packed to go to new orleans. mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. had you had any discussion with marina about her coming to live with you of which she was aware prior to this occasion on april ? mrs. paine. i had discussed with her the possibility of her coming at the time the baby was expected. mr. jenner. when was the baby expected? mrs. paine. mid-october. mr. jenner. but there had been no discussion up to april , to your recollection, even about your inviting marina to come to live with you? mrs. paine. you mean on a more permanent basis, other than to stay when the baby was due? mr. jenner. yes; which would be in the fall of the year. mrs. paine. that is right. there was none. mr. jenner. there was no discussion about her coming to live with you in the spring around about this time? mrs. paine. i remember feeling when i arrived that they were, and probably appropriately, making their own plans, and wondering whether i should have already made this invitation, but i had not. mr. jenner. you say they were already making their own plans; are you seeking to imply that they had some notion she might join you? mrs. paine. no; i don't think there was any notion. i am trying to say i recall that i hadn't made that invitation at that time. mr. jenner. to the best of your recollection it is now that you had not discussed the subject with marina up to this occasion? mrs. paine. not the subject of staying on with me as an alternative to going back to russia. mr. jenner. only staying with you in the fall? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. when the baby came? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. what did you say, mrs. paine--excuse me. first, have you exhausted your recollection of everything that lee oswald said on that occasion when you arrived there? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. what did you say? mrs. paine. i said, yes, i would take his bags to the station if he wanted me to. mr. jenner. all right. mrs. paine. and we then did. mr. jenner. you just left? mrs. paine. take them to the bus station to be checked. mr. jenner. did marina accompany you? mrs. paine. marina went, and he checked the baggage. it was rather more than he could have carried on the city bus, and i am sure he preferred me to a taxi because i don't cost as much. mr. jenner. you didn't cost anything? mrs. paine. that is right. and he then bought a ticket, he bought a ticket for marina, i mean i was thinking, while he was in the bus station, and suggested that it would be a very difficult thing for a pregnant woman with a small child to take a -hour, -hour bus trip to new orleans, and suggested that i drive her down with june. mr. jenner. you volunteered this? mrs. paine. i volunteered this, and suggested further that instead of her staying at her--at the apartment, as was planned at that time, while waiting to hear from him, that she come and stay at my house where he would reach us by phone, and where she would have someone else with her while she waited to hear if he got work. mr. jenner. this was the conversation between you and lee harvey oswald? was it in english or in russian? mrs. paine. probably in russian. i would think so, because i wanted her to understand. mr. jenner. was marina along? mrs. paine. she was present. mr. jenner. she was present; i see. representative ford. this took place where, in the car? mrs. paine. probably in the bus station--in the car near the bus station. he then took the bus ticket back, returned it, and got the money. the chairman. ticket for her? mrs. paine. ticket for her. mr. dulles. her bus ticket? mrs. paine. yes; and he left some money for her for buying things in the next few days before she could join him. mr. jenner. did he get on the bus then and depart? mrs. paine. no; the bus left in the evening. we all drove back to the apartment after he had checked the baggage, and he helped load the baby things and things that marina would need during the next few days into my car, and we emptied what was left there of the things that were in the apartment, and which belonged to them, and then drove, i drove with marina and june and my two children back to my house, and he stayed at the apartment. he was scheduled to leave by bus, city bus, and an interstate bus that evening. mr. jenner. i take it then, mrs. paine, that your impression was that it was contemplated, when you arrived at the oswalds that morning, that mrs. oswald, marina, and her child june, and her husband, lee, were contemplating going to new orleans together that day? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. am i wrong? mrs. paine. that is wrong. she was to have stayed in the apartment. mr. jenner. i see. mrs. paine. and wait to hear from him. mr. jenner. yes. mrs. paine. if they had been going together that would not have been the hardship on her, but that traveling alone was, i felt. representative ford. why did he buy the ticket for her at the---- mrs. paine. to leave with her so that she could follow him when he called, to leave the ticket in her hand as a means of her following him. i haven't been clear. mr. jenner. it was a little indefinite. mr. dulles. i thought the ticket had been redeemed; then he bought another ticket? mrs. paine. he bought a ticket for himself and a ticket for her. mr. dulles. you said, "i will take her," and then he redeemed the ticket for her, and gave her the cash? mr. jenner. gave her some money? mrs. paine. yes. the chairman. but the ticket that he did buy for her---- mrs. paine. was to have been left with her. the chairman. was for a subsequent date? mrs. paine. for a subsequent date following. the chairman. yes. mrs. paine. that is it. mr. jenner. that was clear to you on that occasion? mrs. paine. that was clear. mr. jenner. she was scheduled to join him subsequently? mrs. paine. she was scheduled to join him subsequently if he did find work. if he found no work there would have been no point to her making the trip. mr. jenner. is this a discussion or is it your rationalization? mrs. paine. it was clearly said she would stay. mr. dulles. i am puzzled. i am puzzled, mr. jenner, about this ticket business. mr. jenner. i am, too. mr. dulles. a ticket was bought for her on the theory that she was going with him first. mr. mccloy. no. mr. dulles. that is where i got off the track. he bought two tickets, then why was the ticket redeemed? mr. mccloy. because it was made clear by mrs. paine that she was going to take marina down in her own car. mr. dulles. but only going to stay with you during the period until he got work, hence she wouldn't need a ticket. you were going to drive her down? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. you would drive her down all the way to new orleans? mrs. paine. in either case it was planned to delay going. mr. dulles. she would go down if he got work, but she would not need a ticket if she stayed with you. therefore, the ticket was redeemed. mrs. paine. yes. but i did not think of this or suggest it until after he had already bought the ticket. representative ford. may i ask this, mrs. paine? in the things that were packed when you arrived, or things that were packed while you were present---- mrs. paine. nothing was packed while i was present. it was already packed. representative ford. everything was already packed by the time you got there? mrs. paine. yes. representative ford. were any of the things for marina or lee packed? mrs. paine. they were all packed. i don't understand your question. all of the things he wanted to take with him to the bus station were already packed. representative ford. well, in that group of things which were so packed, were there things for marina and lee? mrs. paine. yes. representative ford. i mean marina and june, excuse me? mrs. paine. yes. some of their things were among those things, yes, i judge so, clothing. the things that remained were a crib, playpen, baby stroller, some dishes, some clothing. representative ford. the things you would not ordinarily take on a bus, however. mrs. paine. yes; it would be very difficult. that was another one of the things that motivated me to suggest driving her down. i thought sending these by train, with the risk of their getting strayed or--it would be difficult, trying, for her to try to handle them, or convey them with her by bus--that would have been worse. representative ford. but there were some things that were packed in the things that lee was going to take with him that would include things---- mrs. paine. that belonged to---- representative ford. to--to marina and to june? mrs. paine. i would judge so simply by what remained. surely it was not the total sum of her clothing and june's clothing. representative ford. which could lead a person to the conclusion that at one stage of their discussion marina was going to accompany lee to new orleans. mrs. paine. not from the time i arrived. representative ford. from the station. mrs. paine. it was clear she would stay up in the apartment. mr. jenner. up to that time it appeared to you from what was in the duffelbag---- mrs. paine. i think he was carrying all he could to lighten her burden. in other words, if and when she followed, he was carrying all he could. mr. jenner. representative ford is interested in this, mrs. paine---- mr. dulles. i am puzzled, too. mr. jenner. when you arrived at the oswald apartment that morning, lee oswald had duffelbags packed and some---- mrs. paine. suitcases. mr. jenner. suitcases. he had in those suitcases and in the duffelbag some of the apparel for mrs.--marina? mrs. paine. of course, i did not see it. i have to guess what was in it. mr. jenner. but, from your knowledge of the household and afterwards, this was at least your impression? mrs. paine. that they must have included some of her things. mr. jenner. yes. which, in turn, might lead to the inference that, therefore, they contemplated at that moment from what he was taking that marina was ultimately to join him in new orleans. mrs. paine. oh, yes; absolutely. mr. jenner. is that correct? mrs. paine. yes. was that your question? representative ford. or even at one point in the process of packing, she and june were going to accompany him to new orleans on the bus. mrs. paine. i didn't have that impression, no. no, he was going and happened to stay with an aunt and uncle where he could live without much charge. for her to come would have been quite a greater expense, and a risky one without a job, nothing coming in, so he was hoping that he could stay with the aunt and uncle while he looked, and then if he got remunerative work, get an apartment and call her to come, too. representative ford. if that is so, and let us assume that is so---- mrs. paine. yes. representative ford. it puzzles me that he went into the bus station and bought two tickets, one for himself and one for her. mrs. paine. how would she get there? representative ford. well, eventually she might have to go by bus. but why should he at this time make an investment in a bus ticket when there was no certainty---- mrs. paine. oh, yes. representative ford. when she might follow? this is what puzzles me. mrs. paine. yes. well, i can only guess about this. i judge from his having done this that he certainly intended for her to follow, and it is also possible she couldn't have asked for a bus ticket herself. if he had written her and said, "don't come to new orleans, come to nashville," and he had said, "that is where i have got my job," he might have felt she would not know how to go and get such a bus ticket. mr. dulles. is it also possible he may not have wanted to leave that amount of money with her to buy a ticket and preferred to leave her a ticket rather than cash? mrs. paine. this is possible, this is possible. mr. jenner. all right. now, mrs. paine, in light of that speculation, tell us what discussion there was on the subject. mrs. paine. i think i have, that while he was in the bus station i thought how difficult it would be for her to travel alone with the baby, and all the things---- mr. jenner. and you raised that yourself for the first time at that point? mrs. paine. then i said she might stay with me while waiting to hear from him, and that i would drive her down if we did hear that he had gotten work. mr. jenner. had there been prior discussion that it was contemplated that, if he obtained a position, she would join him in new orleans, or wherever he obtained a position. mrs. paine. yes. we had already talked about that at the apartment. mr. jenner. and that had been discussed with her present? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and discussed in russian so that she could have understood the discussion? mrs. paine. to the best of my recollection, yes. mr. jenner. now, mrs. paine, the staff is interested in lee harvey oswald's luggage. mrs. paine. what? mr. jenner. his luggage. mrs. paine. luggage. mr. jenner. would you please, to the best of your recollection, tell us what pieces of luggage he had on that occasion, what they looked like, their shape and form? mrs. paine. yes. he had two large marine duffelbags with his name on them, and probably his marine serial number. it was marked with a good deal of white paint. it stood quite high. mr. jenner. were they up-ended when you say high? you mean standing on end, they were high? mrs. paine. standing on their end they would come well above this table. mr. jenner. i see. about inches? mrs. paine. something like that; i would guess so. mr. jenner. excuse me, i am interested in just that. would you go over to the drawing board and move your hand, judge from the floor, and stop right there? we will measure that later. mrs. paine. understand i saw those two later in my garage. mr. jenner. i understand, and i will get to that. that is just about inches, and there were two of them? mrs. paine. there were two of them. do you want anything about the rest of the luggage? does that interest you the most? mr. jenner. yes, i am interested, and i would like to stick with the duffelbags for a moment. was there any appearance as to either duffelbag, which, to you, would indicate some long, slim, hard---- mrs. paine. i assume them to be both full of clothes, very rounded. mr. jenner. i don't wish to be persistent, but was there anything that you saw about the duffelbags that lead you at that time to even think for an instant that there was anything long, slim and hard like a pole? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. or a gun, a rifle? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. no? nothing? mrs. paine. nothing. i did not move these bags. mr. jenner. to the extent you saw them is all i am inquiring about. you did not touch them, you did not lift them, but you saw them. mrs. paine. i did. mr. jenner. there appeared--the entire circumference of these bags which you could see was smooth? mrs. paine. well, smooth, bumpy, but irregular. mr. jenner. but no stick, no hard surface. now, what about the diameter of these bags, these duffelbags, what would you say it was? mrs. paine. about like this, , , inches across. mr. jenner. eighteen, twenty inches across? mrs. paine. probably more than that. mr. jenner. this is inches. mrs. paine. about like this; a little more than , probably. mr. jenner. about inches. now, how many pieces of luggage in addition to the two duffelbags? mrs. paine. quite a few. there were probably three suitcases. mr. jenner. three suitcases? mrs. paine. or more. a small radio bought in russia. mr. jenner. i want to stick with the luggage. mrs. paine. all right. mr. jenner. three suitcases? mrs. paine. i think so, two or three, and a large softsided suitcase, i don't know what to call it. it zips around the side. mr. jenner. zipper case? mrs. paine. yes, made of canvas. mr. jenner. we would like to have you describe that zipper case. mrs. paine. it is green---- mr. jenner. i am interrupting you, i am sorry. were there any other pieces of luggage, first? mrs. paine. i don't recall. mr. jenner. so there were two or three or possibly four, is that true, suitcases? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and there was a zipper case? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. describe this zipper case to us first. mrs. paine. it stood about so high [indicating]. mr. jenner. so high is inches, about inches long? mrs. paine. not quite, about that long [indicating]. mr. jenner. it was a generous sized zipper case? mrs. paine. yes. with generally green canvas and leather, dark-colored leather. mr. jenner. black or brown--do you remember the color? mrs. paine. dark brown, i guess, or black, certainly very dark. mr. jenner. it was a generous sized one, was it not? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. did it appear to be well packed? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. would you describe each of the three suitcases now, with particular reference to the staff being interested in whether they were rectangular, whether they were hard boarded types of things, or whether they were canvas or soft? mrs. paine. i don't remember how many there were. i recall they had a hard composition kind of suitcase such as you don't buy here, and i judge they were bought in the soviet union. i think there may have been two of those. mr. jenner. was any one of them rectangular in shape? mrs. paine. yes. that was rectangular. mr. jenner. the one you specifically have in mind, he did have a rectangular one? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and what color was it? mrs. paine. dark, blackish green, or dark brown, something of this nature. mr. jenner. anything else you can think about it in the way of description? mrs. paine. i think it had--it was reinforced, corners, with rivets, or bolts, of something to hold it, hold the corners on it. mr. dulles. how long was this rectangular suitcase? mrs. paine. i don't recall. in fact, i can't recall whether it was one or two, but something like that, normal suitcases. mr. jenner. mr. chairman, may i have your permission to approach the witness? mr. mccloy. and take the measurements? mrs. paine. and take the measurements. mr. mccloy. the witness may be approached. mrs. paine. that or larger, i would say. mr. jenner. you are now describing the length of the rectangular suitcase, is that correct? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and that would be - / inches? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. that is your best recollection? mrs. paine. i am brief in my recollection, a normal rectangular shape here. mr. jenner. width, that is the side, you mean? mrs. paine. that is the whole thing. that is looking at the top. how high it is. mr. jenner. no; wide. mrs. paine. i am filling it out. this would be the width then from here to here, possibly more. mr. jenner. fourteen inches? mrs. paine. i am not sure i am recalling one or two at the same time. i have to be under oath, and giving you details on things i don't recall that well. mr. jenner. all we are seeking is your best recollection. mrs. paine. all right, that is my best recollection. mr. jenner. twenty-one and a half times fourteen, and how high was it? mrs. paine. about so, , about . mr. jenner. i said high. was this lying flat on its side when you saw it? mrs. paine. well, all these things again i saw in the fall, so it is a mixed recollection. mr. jenner. i am going to get as to what you saw in the fall, but it is important to us as to what you saw on this occasion. mrs. paine. well, i particularly recall the duffels because they are unusual, and i recall this bag being, i judge russian make rather than american, it was a large zipper bag. mr. jenner. and mrs. paine, you do recall that zipper bag on this occasion? mrs. paine. i believe so. mr. jenner. and there was at least one, if not more than one, rectangular---- mrs. paine. i can't be certain of the zipper bag. mr. jenner. hard-sided suitcase? mrs. paine. yes; hard-sided suitcase. i can't be certain, absolutely certain, of the zipper bag. i recall seeing so much of it since, tripped over it numerous times, that it may be just that i recalled it. i didn't move this luggage at all. mr. jenner. i am not suggesting that you did. mrs. paine. i am sorry i can't remember it better. mr. jenner. were all of these suitcases about the same size and shape? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. you have described the rectangular one. would you now describe the second, the second in order of your recollection? mrs. paine. well, there was at least another rectangular one. mr. jenner. hard-sided? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. was it larger or smaller than the one you have described? mrs. paine. i don't recall with certainty. mr. jenner. was there a third? mrs. paine. there may have been a third. i certainly recall this radio that was unusual. the others i don't. mr. jenner. it is possible you might be confused between the radio case and a suitcase. mrs. paine. no, no; no possibility of that. mr. jenner. all right. he checked all these articles, checked them into the bus station? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and did you and lee and marina return to their home? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. did you remain there? mrs. paine. no. he then helped pack up the remaining things, the playpen, the bed, and then we left there midafternoon, perhaps , all of this must have taken quite a long time, because---- mr. jenner. they removed everything from their home? mrs. paine. they removed everything that remained to them. mr. jenner. put it in the station wagon? mrs. paine. put it in the station wagon and went with lee and marina. mr. jenner. your station wagon was big enough to hold everything in the house, is that correct? mrs. paine. well, they had no furniture, but it held all the rest of their things; yes. mr. jenner. did he do the packing? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. what were you doing in the meantime? mrs. paine. packing was haphazard, this packing was haphazard; put the dishes in a box and carried it out to the car. mr. jenner. it was in the open so you could see what went into your car? mrs. paine. i think so. i certainly then repacked it to go to new orleans. mr. jenner. well, i want to stick with this occasion, please. mrs. paine. all right. mr. jenner. was there a rifle packed in the back of the car? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. you didn't see any kind of weapon? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. firearm, rifle, pistol, or otherwise? mrs. paine. no; i saw nothing of that nature. mr. jenner. did you drive them to your home? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. were the materials and things in your station wagon unpacked and placed in your home? mrs. paine. yes; immediately. mr. jenner. did you see that being done, were you present? mrs. paine. i helped do it; yes. mr. jenner. did you see any weapon on that occasion? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. whether a rifle, pistol or---- mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. or any covering, any package, that looked as though it might have a weapon, pistol, or firearm? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. up to this moment, mrs. paine, had there been any discussion with marina or with lee harvey oswald in connection with his life in russia with the use of a firearm or his right to use one in russia? mrs. paine. i never heard him mention anything of this sort. michael told me later he mentioned it to michael. mr. mccloy. state that, please. mrs. paine. michael told me later that lee had complained in michael's hearing that they did not permit a private individual to have a gun, but i didn't hear that when it was said. so there was no discussion at any time that mentioned guns, nothing brought up by marina or lee. mr. jenner. i will broaden my question. up to--now up to, and not including, up to november , , had there ever been any discussion between you and lee harvey oswald or between you and marina or any discussion in the presence of either of them by anybody, including yourself, about the use of a firearm by lee harvey oswald? mrs. paine. yes. marina told me that he had been hunting in the soviet union. mr. jenner. now, please, to the best of your recollection when did that occur? mrs. paine. when did she tell me? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. paine. it might have been as long ago as may, when she was first staying at my house. she quoted a proverb to the effect that you go hunting in the soviet union and you catch a bottle of vodka, so i judge it was a social occasion more than shooting being the prime object. mr. jenner. that was in this period when she was living with you in the spring of ? mrs. paine. it could have been there. it might have been in october, but i would guess it was in may. mr. jenner. i wish you would elaborate on that. mrs. paine. i wish i wouldn't guess, i know. mr. jenner. did she say that lee harvey oswald had some kind of a firearm in russia? mrs. paine. that he had gone hunting with a group, in other words, in russia. mr. jenner. what was the occasion---- mrs. paine. and she quoted this proverb. mr. jenner. can you remember the circumstance in which she made that utterance? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. anything that provoked it or brought it about? mrs. paine. i think she was probably recalling something of their life in russia. mr. jenner. in a discussion between you and marina as to their life in russia? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. any other occasion in which a discussion occurred between you and either of them or in their presence while you were present on the subject of a firearm prior to november ? mrs. paine. on one occasion around the middle of november i said to marina that---- mr. jenner. was lee harvey oswald present? mrs. paine. he was not present. mr. jenner. just marina and you? mrs. paine. just marina and i. mr. jenner. was it in your home? mrs. paine. yes. i said to her that i did not want to buy toy guns for my children, and that this view of things was shared with a german friend of mine who had been a young girl at the time of the last world war in germany, and she didn't wish to buy guns for her children to play with, and i said too few people think about this. she said nothing in reply. mr. jenner. she didn't say anything at all in response to that. does that exhaust your recollection of all discussion of firearms? mrs. paine. yes; it does. mr. jenner. that occurred in your presence? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. up to november , ? mrs. paine. up to, that is right. mr. mccloy. there was no suggestion of lee's using a firearm for hunting purposes in the united states? mrs. paine. none; nor that he might have had any gun. mr. mccloy. nor that he might have had any gun. mr. jenner. after marina's things and the baby's things had been placed in your home then what occurred in the evening, was this late in the day of the th? mrs. paine. it was close to supper. i am sure we then ate and put our children to bed, possibly talked a short time. i no doubt explained to her quite soon that i was to go away for the weekend. indeed, this invitation was made quite on the spur of the moment. you don't normally invite someone to come and stay with you when you are about to go away, but i was to go to a folk-dance camp with michael that weekend, and you see on the calendar "fdc" which stands for folk-dance camp, arrow san antonio. that is the th, th and th. mr. jenner. yes; i noticed that. mrs. paine. and i left her in the house with the telephone number of my russian tutor to call, and i believe they talked, in fact, before i left. mr. jenner. would you tell us the name of your russian tutor. mr. dulles. could i ask one question that we passed by? mr. jenner. yes. mr. dulles. when you unloaded marina's things and the baby's things, did this subtract one suitcase from this number you have indicated? was one of the suitcases delegated to her things or were they just loose in the car? mrs. paine. insofar as i remember, i believe they were loose. mr. dulles. they were loose. so that the number of suitcases you have indicated were those that were eventually checked and taken by lee harvey oswald to new orleans. mrs. paine. well, that is the way i remember it. it does not seem reasonable that he would go off without leaving her a suitcase to put her things in, so i would guess there was something for her in the nature, perhaps, of a small bag. mr. dulles. so that one of these bags may have been unloaded at your house? mrs. paine. yes. mr. mccloy. you testified, i believe, you started to testify, that there was also a radio that had been presumably purchased in russia. did he take that with him? mrs. paine. he took that. mr. mccloy. he took that with him. he didn't return that to her. mr. jenner. mrs. paine, i don't want to speculate, but i thought you had testified in response to my questions that the two or three pieces of luggage, that is, the suitcases, plus the two duffel bags, plus the zipper bag, plus the radio, had been checked into the bus station. mrs. paine. yes; that is right. mr. jenner. all of those pieces of luggage were actually checked in, and when you left the bus station none of the pieces of luggage or the radio or the duffel bags had been placed back in your car. mrs. paine. i don't recall it, but it seems to me unreasonable---- mr. jenner. now, please, i don't want you to rationalize. i want your best recollection. mrs. paine. i cannot recall. i mean the suitcases that came to my house---- mr. jenner. you don't recall having taken one of the pieces of luggage and placed that piece back in your station wagon? mrs. paine. oh, no, no, that is definite. all that went to the bus station. mr. jenner. remained there. mrs. paine. remained there. mr. jenner. i see. mr. dulles. at what stage did they go to the bus station? did you go from their apartment to your house and then to the bus station or did you go to the bus station first? mrs. paine. directly to the bus station. mr. dulles. and then went to your house? mrs. paine. directly to the bus station from their apartment, back to their apartment and picked up the rest of the things. mr. dulles. i see. mrs. paine. the baby things and her clothing and then went to my house. mr. dulles. i see. mr. jenner. mrs. paine, apart from your rationalization, do you have the recollection that there was any luggage at all in the oswald home when you got back? mrs. paine. no; i have no such recollection. mr. jenner. so that in response to mr. dulles' questions when you talked about the possibility of some luggage, you were rationalizing? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. you are not drawing on your recollection? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. i take it your best recollection, in fact, is that there was no luggage remaining at the oswald home when you got back? mrs. paine. there was nothing packed when we got back. mr. jenner. do you recall undertaking to pack anything when you got back in order to remove what they had there remaining to your home? mrs. paine. you mean was there a suitcase into which i could pack anything? mr. jenner. that is it. mrs. paine. i don't recall. mr. jenner. all right. now, you have related to us that you went away for the weekend. mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. with your husband. mrs. paine. right. mr. jenner. now, you have an entry in your diary, and i quote it on the th of april, : "lee and marina." mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. was that an entry made after the fact? mrs. paine. no; i judge that was---- mr. jenner. now, please give me your best recollection. mrs. paine. that was the plan to meet, knowing lee was no longer working; it was there for not only a meeting with marina, but i expected to see them both at the apartment. mr. jenner. so that is confined to the meeting you expected to have with lee and marina that morning when you went there and, to your surprise, you found that mr. oswald was all packed to go to new orleans. mrs. paine. all packed and looking for a cab; yes. mr. jenner. how long did marina remain in your home on that occasion? mrs. paine. she stayed then until may --well, excuse me, she stayed until the th of may. mr. jenner. you have an entry, do you not, in your diary as to the may th or th. mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. read it. mrs. paine. it says now going over to the th "new orleans." mr. jenner. and you have written across then "may and may ," is that right? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. what does the "new orleans" signify, please? mrs. paine. lee called on the evening of the th to say he had work. mr. jenner. you recall that? mrs. paine. i recall that definitely. marina says, "papa naslubet," "father loves us," "daddy loves us, he got work and he wanted us to come." she was very elated. mr. jenner. this is marina talking to you? mrs. paine. i could see as she talked on the phone. mr. jenner. you overheard this conversation? mrs. paine. afterward. she said over and over, "papa naslubet," "daddy loves us," "daddy loves us." mr. jenner. she was elated? mrs. paine. she was elated and, let's see, we tried to think when we could leave, and first said over the phone that we would leave on the morning of the th. but i thought it would be too long to do all this in one day, and we accelerated our preparations and left midday on the th which got us to shreveport. mr. jenner. before we get into this, and i would like to cover this interim period before any adjournment today; there was a -day period now, approximately, maybe we will limit it to days, that marina stayed with you in your home. mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. did you have conversations with her about her husband? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. about their life in russia? mrs. paine. well, even going so far as to wonder---- mr. jenner. during this -day period? mrs. paine. yes. we had such conversations. mr. jenner. would you please relate to us your discussions with marina with respect to her husband lee harvey oswald? mrs. paine. well, she wondered if he did, in fact, love her. mr. jenner. what did she say? mrs. paine. she said she supposed most couples had at some time wondered about this. she wondered herself whether she loved him truly. she talked some of her few months of dating that she had in minsk, and of living there. mr. jenner. that is before her marriage to lee harvey? mrs. paine. yes. at some point, and i want to tell you this, whether it is appropriate or whether it happened later in october, i can't be certain, but i think in may she told me that she had written a letter to a previous boyfriend, and that this letter had come back because she had put insufficient postage on it, and lee had found it at the door coming back through the mail, and had been very angry. mr. jenner. did she go beyond that? mrs. paine. she did not. to tell me what was in the letter, you mean? mr. jenner. i am not thinking so much within the letter. did she go beyond stating that he was merely only angry? was there any discussion about his having struck her? mrs. paine. no; none. no; none. she never mentioned to me ever that lee had struck her. mr. jenner. and during all the visits you ever had with her, all the tete-a-tetes, her living with you on this occasion we now describe as - / days, and in the fall, was there any occasion when marina oswald related to you any abuse, physical abuse, by her husband, lee harvey oswald, with respect to her? mrs. paine. there was never any such occasion. mr. jenner. never any such occasion. and in particular this incident? mrs. paine. she related this incident, but it did not include anything further than he had been very angry and hurt. mr. jenner. up to this time, that is, the time she came to you on the th, had you ever seen any bruises---- mrs. paine. no; i never saw her---- mr. jenner. on her person? mrs. paine. no; i never saw her bruised. mr. jenner. at no time that you have ever seen her or known her, have you ever seen her bruised? mrs. paine. at no time. mr. jenner. so that there has been no occasion when you have seen it, or been led to believe, she had been subjected to any physical abuse by her husband? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. was there any discussion during these days of any occasion when marina had gone off to live with someone else? mrs. paine. no. i think she told me that in the fall. mr. jenner. i see. as long as i have raised that, would you please give us the time and the occasions and tell us what occurred? mrs. paine. what she told me? mr. jenner. what she said. when was this? mrs. paine. this probably was in october. she told me that the previous year she had---- mr. jenner. ? mrs. paine. yes. she had in the fall, she had gone to a friend's home, left lee. she described his face as she left, as shocked and dismayed and unbelieving. mr. jenner. unbelieving? mrs. paine. in a sense that she was truly walking out on him. mr. jenner. yes. excuse me. did she put it in those terms, that she was leaving? mrs. paine. she was leaving; yes. mr. jenner. she left him? mrs. paine. yes; and went to stay with a friend. then moved to the home---- mr. jenner. did she name the friend? mrs. paine. she did not name the friend; no. the friend's name came up in another connection, but i had no way of making the connection until after i learned about this to whom she referred. mr. jenner. do you now recall the name? mrs. paine. she went to katya ford's. the chairman. to the fords? mrs. paine. to katya, being the friend, mrs. ford. the chairman. mrs. ford. mrs. paine. and then moved. she did tell me this. she had moved on the weekend to a different home. then lee came there, pleaded for her to come back, promised that everything would be different. she went back and she reported--as she reported it to me, things were no different. mr. jenner. were not different? mrs. paine. were not different. mr. jenner. did you undertake a discussion with her as to what the things were that were disturbing her? mrs. paine. that offended her that much? no; i did not. mr. jenner. that led her to leave her husband? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. there was no discussion of that? mrs. paine. no. mr. mccloy. did you ever witness any altercations? mrs. paine. indeed i saw them argue a good deal. mr. mccloy. sharp arguments? mrs. paine. yes. mr. dulles. but no violence of any kind? mrs. paine. no physical violence. mr. mccloy. any profanity? mrs. paine. i am not sure i know russian profanity. he was very curt and told her to shut up quite a great deal. mr. jenner. in your presence? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. in the presence of others? mrs. paine. particularly in new orleans the first time when we went down, when i took her to new orleans in may, he was very discourteous to her, and they argued most of that weekend. i was very uncomfortable in that situation, and he would tell her to shut up, tell her, "i said it, and that is all the discussion on the subject." representative ford. what were the kinds of discussions that prompted this? mrs. paine. i can't recall that, and i have already had my brain picked trying to, with other people trying to, to recall what was the difficulty. i do recall feeling that the immediate things they were talking about were insufficient reason for that much feeling being passed back and forth, and i wondered if i wasn't adding to the strain in the situation, and did my best to get back to texas directly. but the--well, i do recall one thing, yes--we arrived with a big load of blackberries that we bought from a vendor along the street. representative ford. on the way down? mrs. paine. on the way down, on the road, and ate them, and then, he, one morning, started to make blackberry wine, and she bawled him out for it, what a waste of good blackberries, and she said, "what do you think you are doing? ruining all this." and he proceeded, and argued about it, but thought he should, you know, defend himself. on this occasion she was making the attack in a sense and didn't think he should do it this way, and then, so, under fire and attack, he continued. but then the next day she observed that he had tossed it all out and lost heart after the argument, and decided it wasn't---- mr. dulles. he tossed out the wine? mrs. paine. he tossed it out; yes. mr. jenner. you detected, then, irritability as between them. is that a fair statement? mrs. paine. that is accurate. mr. jenner. and anger rose to the surface pretty easily? mrs. paine. very easily. mr. jenner. what was your impression? of course he hadn't seen her then for a couple of weeks. mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. tell us about it--when she came in. did they embrace? mrs. paine. yes. we arrived at his uncle's in one section of new orleans, and had a very friendly half hour or so---- mr. jenner. was he there? mrs. paine. yes; he was there. he introduced her and little june, and played with june, on his shoulders, perhaps. at any rate, he was very glad to see the baby, and was congenial and outgoing. we talked with the relatives for a short time. then the uncle drove them to the apartment--i was following with my children in my car--drove to the apartment he had rented, which was in a different section of the city. and lee showed her, of course, all the virtues of the apartment that he had rented. he was pleased that there was room enough, it was large enough that he could invite me to stay, and the children, to spend the night there. and he pointed out this little courtyard with grass, and fresh strawberries ready to pick, where june could play. and a screened porch entryway. and quite a large living room. and he was pleased with the furniture and how the landlady had said this was early new orleans style. and marina was definitely not as pleased as he had hoped. i think he felt--he wanted to please her. this showed in him. mr. jenner. tell us what she said. what led you to that conclusion? mrs. paine. she said it is dark, and it is not very clean. she thought the courtyard was nice, a grass spot where june could play, fenced in. but there was very little ventilation. we immediately were aware there were a lot of cockroaches. mr. jenner. was she aware of this, and did she comment on that? mrs. paine. i don't know as anything was said. he was pretty busy explaining. he was doing his best to get rid of them. but they didn't subside. i remember noticing that he was tender and vulnerable at that point, when she arrived. mr. jenner. he was tender? mrs. paine. hoping for--particularly vulnerable, hoping for approval from her, which she didn't give. it wasn't a terribly nice apartment. and she had been disappointed, because when we first arrived she thought that the home we were going to was the apartment. mr. jenner. she thought the murrets' home? mrs. paine. yes. so when we came up to the murrets' home, she said, "this is lovely, how pleased i am." so that she was in--disappointed by contrast with the apartment that she really had to live in. representative ford. she expressed this? mrs. paine. she expressed her disappointment; yes; and didn't meet his hopes to be pleased with it. mr. dulles. as compared with their previous place of residence, how was the new orleans apartment? it was bigger, i gather. mrs. paine. it was larger. it was darker, less well ventilated. it was on the first floor, the other was upstairs. i would say they were comparable in cost and in attractiveness. mr. jenner. what about vermin? mrs. paine. i didn't see any vermin at the first place. but then i didn't spend the night there. mr. jenner. so the welcoming was cordial? mrs. paine. the welcoming was cordial. mr. jenner. they seemed to have a fine relationship at that moment? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. but as the weekend progressed, and she saw the new apartment, all the time you were there, you were aware of friction and irritability? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. going back to the days again, was there any discussion during this period, again, on the subject of mr.--of lee oswald wishing marina to return to russia? mrs. paine. i believe i made definite, but only verbal, an invitation for her to stay on with me, past the time of the baby's birth, if she wished to. mr. jenner. i take it--i will get into that. but i take it your answer to my question first is yes. mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. now, tell us what that discussion was. mrs. paine. well---- mr. jenner. and how it arose. mrs. paine. well, we still discussed the possibility of her coming back to have the baby here--although by no means a definite--definitely planned. mr. jenner. excuse me. i am a little confused. when you say coming back to have the baby here---- mrs. paine. it was assumed she would go to new orleans when he called, but we talked about the possibility of her coming back to dallas. i said she was still welcome to if she wants to, if it seems appropriate, to come here to have the baby. mr. dulles. that was to your house, you mean? mrs. paine. yes; to stay at my house before, or especially right after the baby's birth, where i could look after june while she was in the hospital and later. june didn't take readily to strangers. she did like me and was comfortable with me, so i felt she might want to have someone she knew and got along with. mr. jenner. but in this connection, was there a discussion between you and marina oswald subject to her husband wishing her to return to russia? mrs. paine. i don't believe she again said that he was after her to return. mr. jenner. well, then, on the whole, your answer to my question would be no. mrs. paine. that is right. as far as i recall, it came up only once in our discussions prior to new orleans. mr. jenner. which you have already related? mrs. paine. right. mr. jenner. was there any discussion during the -day period on the subject of her acquiring greater facility with the english language? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and his attitude toward that? mrs. paine. his attitude had already been discussed, and i don't believe it was particularly discussed further. but she did indicate that she was going to try to learn some anyway. mr. jenner. despite that? mrs. paine. i judged so. i asked if she had a book written in russian entitled "the self teacher in the english language." she did not. and i ordered it. and i think i gave it to her even then. i am quite certain of that. this turned out to be not much help. at least she was interested in trying to learn english. mr. jenner. was there any discussion of the subject of it being disclosed to the russian emigré group that she was pregnant. mrs. paine. no; she continued to ask me not to mention that. we did, however, meet someone in the russian emigré group in fort worth after she had the first day put on maternity clothes--and so she was sorry that that meeting had occurred. she judged now people would know. mr. jenner. all right. did anything else occur in the way of discussions during that -day period on the subject of life in russia, his political philosophy, how they got along, his general disposition, her reaction to america? mrs. paine. she discussed her reaction to america. she was very impressed with the variety of goods available in the stores. she thought the quality was better here than in russia. then there was more of that later in october. mr. jenner. i will get to that, in october. have we pretty well exhausted this -day interim period, then? mrs. paine. yes, sir. representative ford. mr. jenner, may i ask a question there? during this -day period, did any individual, male or female, come and visit you at your home? mrs. paine. you mean particularly to see her? i am sure there are people coming and going at my house. there must have been. for instance, may , mary--this is again miss mary referred to previously, a babysitter, " : . war and peace." mary came and stayed with my children, and marina and june and i went to see war and peace. miss mary recalls that meeting. mr. jenner. is that a play or the movie? mrs. paine. this is the movie, war and peace, in english. but, of course, she knew the story, so she could enjoy seeing it. "ed tennis confirm." i went over to play tennis. on the fourth of may, craig's children--they came here. representative ford. into your home? mrs. paine. probably. mr. jenner. who is craig? mrs. paine. craig is this young german woman who didn't want to buy guns for her children either, that i mentioned. and we exchanged children often. mr. jenner. does she speak russian? mrs. paine. no; german only, and english. and, mow the lawn, it says on the third, but that is not me, it is a neighbor who mows the lawn. and may in the morning, "ilse"--means mrs. craig again--kept my children while i went at : to saint marks for an interview. so there was a normal flow. and i told my immediate neighbor, mrs. roberts, who figures later, that marina was there over the weekend, that i wouldn't be there, and introduced them, so marina could go to mrs. roberts and make signs or symbols if she had to get a message through to someone. mr. jenner. mrs. roberts is your next door neighbor? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. then your response to representative ford's question is that---- mrs. paine. a normal flow to my house. mr. jenner. but there wasn't anybody that came specifically to see her from the russian emigré group, is that correct? mrs. paine. no. representative ford. were there any telephone calls to her from anybody of this group, or any other group? mrs. paine. no. i made the contact for her with my tutor, got her to call. but that is all. mr. dulles. she probably could not operate the telephone. mrs. paine. she could. that was the first i knew. i wasn't certain. but she knew how to operate the telephone. mr. jenner. i am pleased you raised that, sir. she could dial. did you have the dial system in effect at that time? mrs. paine. way out in irving; yes. mr. jenner. and she could dial the number if she wished? mrs. paine. yes; she knew how to do that. mr. mccloy. did you at any time get any evidence to indicate that she was in touch with any soviet officials at all, the consul general? did she ever talk of going to the soviet embassy or the soviet consulate in regard to her problems? mrs. paine. no. the only thing ever mentioned was this that i have already mentioned for the record--that she had written to the soviet embassy inquiring about papers to go back. mr. mccloy. did you think she did that on her own initiative? mrs. paine. no; because he was insisting. mr. dulles. we have a copy of that letter, have we not? mr. mccloy. did she ever tell you why she didn't want to return to the soviet union? mrs. paine. she said she liked america better. mr. mccloy. and she rather liked the conditions here better than she had experienced them in the soviet union? mrs. paine. yes. mr. mccloy. and that you think was her fundamental motivation for staying here? mrs. paine. yes. mr. mccloy. wanting to stay here? when you were in contact with her at all did any--when she was staying with you, was there any unidentified characters or people that called to see her? mrs. paine. no; there was no one at all that called to see her. mr. jenner. were there any telephone calls received during that period when you answered the phone that someone asked for marina? mrs. paine. only that from lee on the night. mr. jenner. only from lee? mrs. paine. only from lee. mr. jenner. no other calls to her? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. and no other callers--that is persons who came to your home? mrs. paine. none. mr. mccloy. what was the name of these--de mohrenschildts. did they communicate with her when she was with you? mrs. paine. no; my impression is they were already out of the country. mr. jenner. was there any mail received or delivered to your home during this period for her? mrs. paine. no; i don't think so. it is possible that lee wrote once. i think it is more likely she wrote him. mr. jenner. in the household goods and paraphernalia transferred to your house, were there any books, pamphlets, literature? mrs. paine. i didn't see any. mr. jenner. you did not see any? mrs. paine. i did not. mr. mccloy. did you ever engage in any discussion or dialectics with lee about the respective merits of the capitalist system or the soviet system? did you engage in any debates with him on political philosophy? mrs. paine. i once listened to such a debate between lee and my husband, in october. mr. dulles. you kept out of the debate? mrs. paine. i tried hard. i felt it was not going anywhere, and that he was not a man that could be approached by logic, and that there was no point to arguing with him. i disagreed with him quite strongly, and i didn't see how it would help in any way to say so, or to try to change--certainly it would not have helped to try to change his views. he, for instance, was of the opinion that all churches were an arm of the state, intent upon blinding the people. i thought his thinking was extremely erroneous, and not open to introduction of other facts, anything contradictory to his own view. mr. mccloy. did he become intemperate in argument? mrs. paine. no; he did not. mr. mccloy. but in the course of his discussions with your husband, did he assert adherence to the element of violence as a factor---- mrs. paine. michael tells me he did. i didn't hear that particular discussion. representative ford. in response to mr. mccloy, you told of this argument that your husband and lee oswald had. you said it was october. this is october ? mrs. paine. yes. mr. mccloy. do you have any more questions? we are going to resume in the morning at o'clock. the chairman. will you be here? mr. mccloy. yes; i will be here. the chairman. then you continue to preside throughout her testimony. i will be here, though. mr. dulles. i have no questions. mr. mccloy. do you want to close? mr. jenner. i would just as soon adjourn now, if it suits your convenience. mr. mccloy. all right. we will excuse you. thank you for your cooperation. (whereupon, at : p.m., the president's commission recessed.) _thursday, march , _ testimony of ruth hyde paine resumed the president's commission met at : a.m. on march , , at maryland avenue ne., washington, d.c. present were chief justice earl warren, chairman; senator john sherman cooper, representative hale boggs, representative gerald r. ford, john j. mccloy, and allen w. dulles, members. also present were albert e. jenner, jr., assistant counsel; and wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel. mr. mccloy. mrs. paine, i must remind you that you are still under affirmation. we don't take a new affirmation with each hearing. mr. jenner. we had concluded, if you recall, the -day period in may that mrs. oswald resided at the home of mrs. paine. would you please describe for us the items of household furniture, or whatever the articles were, that were packed in your station wagon when you took mrs. oswald to new orleans? mrs. paine. we packed in a play pen and crib. i recall a stroller, some kitchen utensils, and personal clothing for herself and the baby. mr. jenner. was there any luggage of any character? mrs. paine. there may have been a small suitcase but i don't recall it specifically. mr. jenner. you do not? mrs. paine. i am just guessing. mr. jenner. as i recall you have told us yesterday that when you arrived in new orleans, you went by the murrets' home first? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. and then from the murrets' home to the apartment at, what was that address on magazine street? mrs. paine. . mr. jenner. that was rather than . mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. mrs. paine, there has been a touch of testimony, at least of the possibility that mr. oswald may have dry-fired or dry-sighted any rifle in the courtyard or garden space at ? would you be good enough to draw for us free hand the layout, at least the ground layout of the premises on magazine street in new orleans? mrs. paine. now, shall i describe this? mr. jenner. could i first show the diagram. i have marked the diagram the witness has drawn as commission exhibit no. . (the diagram referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. jenner. mr. chairman, might it be helpful and permissible if i had the witness stand to your rear and point to the diagram so that you might follow her testimony? mr. mccloy. very well. mrs. paine. this street is magazine street; it is a corner house. mr. jenner. excuse me, mrs. paine, left on your plot is east and west and up and down are north and south? mrs. paine. yes; that is the way i recall it. this is a corner house and there was room enough---- mr. jenner. excuse me, i have to keep the record. you are referring now to a square on the right-hand margin of your outline. mrs. paine. between this house, and the courtyard and house where the oswalds were staying, there was room enough to drive a car. mr. jenner. have you marked the courtyard with that word? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. now, you have written "courtyard" in the sort of an "l" shaped space that you have indicated on the plot, is that right? mrs. paine. this is a square space cut by a walk. mr. jenner. all right. mrs. paine. this was a low fence. mr. jenner. when you say this, it does not help us on the record; what is this to which you have pointed--you have written something across it? mrs. paine. around this courtyard and in front of the house was a low metal picket fence. mr. jenner. that you have so designated? mrs. paine. correct. mr. jenner. thank you. mrs. paine. there was grass within this small courtyard or walk, steps---- mr. jenner. which you have also marked "walk"? mrs. paine. yes. steps going up. mr. jenner. which you have likewise so marked? mrs. paine. to a screened porch. mr. jenner. likewise so marked? mrs. paine. and then the doorway from the porch goes into the living room. mr. jenner. and the living room is marked "living room." would you use those names and those designations as you testify? mrs. paine. all right. mr. jenner. now, would you please indicate the courtyard or square or oblong portion you have marked, rectangular portion, that was open space, was it, it was not roofed? mrs. paine. it was fully open. mr. jenner. it was fully open, and it faced out on magazine street? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. and was there open space to the east, that would be toward the building, which you have merely designated as an empty square? mrs. paine. i will write in here "driveway;" this was open here as a driveway. mr. jenner. mrs. paine, is that what you have now marked a building, a dwelling? mrs. paine. it was a dwelling. mr. jenner. were there dwellings to the south of magazine street and on the opposite side of the street? mrs. paine. that so far as i recall, that is my best recollection. mr. jenner. what was to the east in the way of dwellings or buildings? mrs. paine. the rest of the house; they lived in a portion; entered from the side door of a large house; i assume it was once a one-family dwelling. mr. jenner. then for our purpose here as far as the courtyard is concerned on the east it was--there was a walk? mrs. paine. a building. mr. jenner. west, i am sorry. on the west line of the courtyard there was a walk? mrs. paine. right. mr. jenner. on the north of the courtyard there was the screened porch and to the east, but with intervening driveway there was a dwelling house? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. then the courtyard was open on magazine street? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. does your recollection serve you that anybody standing in the courtyard and dry-sighting a rifle would be visible to people who just happened by, or who would be looking out a window on the south side of magazine street, or in the home or in the dwelling house to the east of the courtyard? mrs. paine. he would have been very visible. would have collected a clutch of small boys. mr. jenner. this was a neighborhood, then, in which there were small children? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. was it a reasonably busy street? mrs. paine. very busy street. mr. jenner. what were the days of the week that you were there when you returned, when you brought mrs. oswald to new orleans? mrs. paine. when we first went down, we arrived on saturday, i was there sunday and monday and left tuesday morning. mr. jenner. all right. does your recollection serve so that you can state that the days you were there you observed during the daytime, at least many or a reasonable number of small children and mothers and fathers, in and about the neighborhood? mrs. paine. a good many small children and adults. mr. jenner. was that likewise true when you returned in september about which you will testify in a few moments? mrs. paine. that was certainly true in september. mr. jenner. mr. chairman, i offer in evidence as commission exhibit no. , a plot which mrs. paine has just drawn and which is so marked. mr. mccloy. so received. (the diagram referred to heretofore, marked commission exhibit no. for identification, was received in evidence.) (at this point, mr. dulles entered the hearing room.) mr. jenner. was the dwelling in which the oswalds were residing, magazine street, a single level or a double level house? mrs. paine. it was all on the ground floor. mr. jenner. it was a one-story house, one story high? mrs. paine. it was a segment of a house that probably had two stories to it. i don't recall. but the segment they had was all on one level. mr. jenner. and that was the ground level? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. directing your attention to exhibit no. , and mr. dulles, would you favor me by handing her the exhibit, and with particular reference to the screen porch, the screen porch likewise opened up on magazine street, did it? mrs. paine. well, it was set back a short space from the street, but the door opened up toward magazine. mr. jenner. the screened portion, that is, that faced on magazine street? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. if anyone were on the screen porch, let us say, dry-sighting a rifle or some other firearm, would he be, would that person be observable from magazine street, and from the east? mrs. paine. i doubt he would have been noticed from magazine street. a small boy passing in the driveway could have looked through the screen, up to the---- mr. jenner. that is to the east? mrs. paine. i will mark "screen" on the south and east side so you know it is screened on both sides. mr. jenner. yes. mrs. paine. i don't recall for certainty but there may have been a kind of shade that could have been put down. it was not when i was there, down, but there may have been some means of---- mr. jenner. lattice shade? mrs. paine. putting down a lattice blind. mr. jenner. a blind or something? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. of course, if the blind were down no one could see it. did you have occasion when you were there, mrs. paine, on either of your two trips to be on the screen porch? mrs. paine. oh, yes. mr. jenner. and looking out? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and was there any impediment to your view? mrs. paine. no, i could see the street very well. mr. jenner. did you have occasion there on either of those occasions to be out in the courtyard or on the street to be looking into the porch area. mrs. paine. yes; i did. mr. jenner. could you see the persons, from the courtyard, could you see persons behind the screen? mrs. paine. from the courtyard you could see persons behind the screen. mr. jenner. do i take it then by your emphasis on courtyard, do you mean by that if you were on magazine street itself, that is the sidewalk in front of the home it would be difficult to see in? mrs. paine. looking directly in you would notice someone but just passing by you would not have been apt to see them. mr. jenner. but if you looked directly you could see in on the porch? mrs. paine. i think so; yes. mr. jenner. you mentioned yesterday a series of letters and correspondence and you spent some time with me last night and we went over all that, do you recall? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. do you have your summary we worked with last night at hand to assist you? mrs. paine. yes; i do. mr. jenner. would you mind taking that out, please? you mentioned yesterday in your testimony a note that you had sent to marina oswald shortly after your initial acquaintance with her in february of . did you receive a response to that note? mrs. paine. i did; and i have that response. mr. jenner. i have here a document which we will mark as commission exhibit no. , including its envelope as a. is that the document or note you received from mrs. oswald and the envelope? (the document and envelope referred to were marked commission exhibits nos. and a, respectively, for identification.) mrs. paine. yes; it is. mr. jenner. did that reach you in the ordinary course of its posting by mail? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. are you familiar with the handwriting of marina oswald? mrs. paine. i am now. mr. jenner. is that--do you identify the handwriting in that document ? mrs. paine. that is her handwriting. mr. jenner. that is hers. mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and is it in the same condition now as it was when you received it? mrs. paine. yes; it is. mr. jenner. and that is her response to your note? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. i offer in evidence as exhibit no. the document now so marked. mr. mccloy. it may be admitted. (the letter and envelope referred to, heretofore marked for identification as commission exhibits nos. and -a, were received in evidence.) mr. jenner. now, that is in what language? mrs. paine. that is in russian. except for the address on the outside. mr. jenner. yes. have you made a translation of that note? mrs. paine. i have. mr. jenner. and is it the translation on the notes that you exhibited to me last night which we have marked as no. ? mrs. paine. it is. mr. jenner. may i inquire, mr. chairman, if you would prefer that i read the translation in evidence or may we have it---- mr. mccloy. it is a short note? mr. jenner. it is a short note. others are a little longer, however, and if i have your permission, to save you time, i would read that into the record during the noon recess or something of that character. mr. mccloy. very well. mr. jenner. is that acceptable. now, did you thereafter--you wrote mrs. oswald at or about that time in response to that note of yours, did you not? mrs. paine. no. let's see--i don't recall whether i did or not or whether i arrived on the tuesday that she had suggested. mr. jenner. i have a little difficulty in handling these, mr. chairman, because they are in russian, and i don't immediately have a vision of it. (at this point, representative ford entered the hearing room.) mr. jenner. i am handing you a document which i have numbered as no. . would you locate that for me on your summary? mrs. paine. i have it. mr. jenner. is that the second page? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. that note also in russian but in whose handwriting? mrs. paine. in my handwriting. mr. jenner. and that is a draft, i take it, of a letter or note that you transmitted to mrs. oswald. would you identify in your sheaf of notes the point at which you made a translation of that note? mrs. paine. when did i make a translation of it? i didn't understand your question. mr. jenner. would you point out in your notes the translation of the document? is that the center of the page on page ? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. is the document which i will have marked as commission exhibit no. in your handwriting? (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mrs. paine. yes; it is. mr. jenner. is it in the same condition now as it was when you completed it? mrs. paine. yes; being, of course, a rough draft of what i sent and not what i sent. mr. jenner. you do not have the original of that because you sent it to marina oswald, is that correct? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. but it does represent your present best recollection of the note as you transmitted it to her? mrs. paine. that is right. this note is without a date. shall i give my recollection of when i think it was written? mr. jenner. yes; please. mrs. paine. i think it was written in march and referred to--it closes, "until the th." i believe that referred to wednesday, march , which is what appears here with the name marina. mr. jenner. which is what you testified to yesterday, and when you say "appears here" you meant exhibit ? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. i offer in evidence the original document which has now been identified as commission exhibit no. . mr. mccloy. it may be admitted. (the document referred to heretofore marked commission exhibit no. for identification, was received in evidence.) mr. jenner. i will read the translation in the record during the noon recess. you shortly transmitted another letter of your own to mrs. oswald, did you not? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and i have here a document which i have marked commission exhibit no. . is this a draft of the letter in your handwriting? (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mrs. paine. yes; it is. mr. jenner. and did you shortly after the completion of that draft retranscribe it and transmit the letter to marina oswald? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. have you made a translation of that letter? mrs. paine. yes; i have. mr. jenner. is the draft of that document in the same condition now as it was when you completed it? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. where is that document transcribed on your notes? mrs. paine. that is at the top of page . mr. jenner. that is what we call no. , is it not? mrs. paine. and dated march . mr. jenner. this, mr. chairman, is her note to which she testified yesterday was an invitation to the oswalds to dinner at her home on april . mrs. paine. it appears--the following invitation is a full explanation of it. i believe i had made the explanation in person. this letter was to say that michael would come and pick them up. mr. jenner. this was confirmation of your original invitation? mrs. paine. yes; this was that michael could pick them up. mr. jenner. i offer in evidence a document marked commission exhibit no. . mr. mccloy. it may be admitted. (the document referred to, heretofore marked commission exhibit no. for identification, was received in evidence.) mr. jenner. did you receive from marina herself a note with respect to your invitation to have her and her husband join you? mrs. paine. i have a note which i take to be a reply to that invitation, saying that that date, tuesday, would be fine. mr. jenner. and i hand you commission document no. . is that the note you received from marina oswald? mrs. paine. yes; it is. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. jenner. have you made--is it in the same condition now as it was when you received it? mrs. paine. i have no envelope anymore. i don't know what happened to it. mr. jenner. is the note itself in the same condition as it was at the time you received it? mrs. paine. no. i have written on it in my hand to help me understand the meaning of it, some pen notations, translation of the russian words. mr. jenner. i am interested in that, mrs. paine. did you also--are there some additions in your handwriting on the first page of the note? mrs. paine. yes, marked one, two, three, four and clearly taken from a dictionary. mr. jenner. why did you do that? mrs. paine. to explain to myself the meaning of these particular words. i had to look them up. mr. jenner. is it a fair statement, mrs. paine, that your command of the russian language was not facile enough for you to read the total letter freehand, as soon as you received it, but you wrote on the letter definitions of words and of phrases to assist you in interpreting it? mrs. paine. that is a fair statement. mr. jenner. were all the notations you have now identified placed by you on that letter shortly after you received it, or in the course of your effort to interpret it? mrs. paine. that is correct. mr. jenner. now, save for those additions of yours, is the document in the same condition now as it was when you received it? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and is it otherwise in the same condition as it was when you placed those notes on it? in other words, there have been no notes of your own placed on the document subsequent to, at, or about the time you received it when you were attempting to interpret it? mrs. paine. well, you first said, or when i was translating it. mr. jenner. yes. mrs. paine. i translated it immediately for myself at the time, and then when i made a written translation i made a more careful one so that some of these notes were done a week ago. mr. jenner. that is what i was getting at. would you please, for the commission identify the particular notes that you placed on there at the time you were seeking to interpret it when you first received it, and the notes you placed on there about a week ago, and indicate the pages. mrs. paine. i can easily answer that. there is only one that was placed more recently. that is an underline on the inside. mr. jenner. right-hand inside page? mrs. paine. right-hand side. mr. jenner. is it merely an underlining? mrs. paine. underline and a question mark. mr. jenner. and would you interpret that for us, please? mrs. paine. i couldn't read her handwriting, but later realized the word to be "if." mr. jenner. when you were seeking to interpret it a week ago to translate it, you placed a question mark over that word because you couldn't quite figure it out? mrs. paine. and then later realized what it was. mr. jenner. as being the word "if"? mrs. paine. that is correct. mr. jenner. other than that, mrs. paine, is the document in the condition it was when you received it and when you initially placed notations on it? mrs. paine. yes; it is. mr. jenner. do you recognize that handwriting? mrs. paine. yes, that is marina oswald's handwriting. mr. jenner. have you made a translation for the commission of that letter? mrs. paine. yes; i have. mr. jenner. and that appears in your notes at page what? mrs. paine. the first page at the bottom. mr. jenner. which i have marked no. , i believe, is that correct? mrs. paine. beginning "for ruth and michael paine." mr. jenner. does your interpretation or translation of the letter represent your impressions of the letter when you read it? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and that is true, is it, of the other translations which we will introduce through you today? is that true of all your translations? mrs. paine. i am not sure of what you are inquiring. mr. jenner. what i am inquiring about, others--as you related to me last night--other persons with the command of the russian language. mrs. paine. i had no help with the translations. mr. jenner. yes. other persons with their command of the russian language might read one of marina's letters and have at least, as to some words, an interpretation different from yours. what i am saying---- mrs. paine. in a minor regard, yes. mr. jenner. it may be? mrs. paine. but i believe the meaning would have been the same. mr. jenner. but it is important to get your impressions, mrs. paine, of marina's letters to you, despite what interpretations some other people might give to the same letter, and what i am seeking to emphasize is whether your translations are your impressions of those letters? mrs. paine. yes; but they are good translations. mr. jenner. i don't mean to question that. we seek the impact of these notes upon you. mrs. paine. i see. this is exactly what i understood them to mean, of course. mr. jenner. that is fine. now, you received in may or on or about may, or shortly after may , , another note from marina oswald, did you not? mrs. paine. this was postmarked may . mr. jenner. after you had taken her to new orleans? mrs. paine. that is correct. this was the first letter i received from her from new orleans. mr. jenner. and you have kindly produced the original of that letter for the commission, have you not? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. is that correct? mrs. paine. yes; it is. mr. jenner. i am sorry, i have to have your answer aloud or i can't get it on the record. the document you have produced is marked commission exhibit . do you recognize the handwriting of that note and of that envelope? (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mrs. paine. this is the handwriting of marina oswald. mr. jenner. both documents? mrs. paine. on both. mr. jenner. did you receive--that is a letter, is it not? mrs. paine. that is a letter. mr. jenner. did you receive it? mrs. paine. yes; i did. mr. jenner. is it on or about, did you receive it on or about the date it is postmarked? mrs. paine. shortly after, i would guess. mr. jenner. i can see some handwriting written horizontally on the back of the envelope, is that handwriting yours or marina's? mrs. paine. that is mine. mr. jenner. when did you place that handwriting on the reverse side? mrs. paine. when i first read the letter and sought to understand it. mr. jenner. i see. and those notations are in russian or in english? mrs. paine. a word is given in russian followed by a translation in english. mr. jenner. as in the case of one of the earlier exhibits, did you place those notations on the reverse side of the envelope at the time you received the letter in the course of your attempting to interpret the letter? mrs. paine. yes; i did. mr. jenner. and those notations were in the course of your doing that. except for the notations on the reverse side of the envelope, is the letter and is the envelope, each in the same condition now as when you received it? mrs. paine. no; i have made a few underlinings. mr. jenner. would you identify any additions you placed on the original document, indicating the page, front or reverse side? mrs. paine. i have marked "bind"---- mr. jenner. is that b-i-n-d? mrs. paine. over one word. mr. jenner. have you written the word "bind"? is that what you mean? mrs. paine. b-i-n-d. mr. jenner. and that is an interpretation, i take it of a word written in russian underneath it. mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and that word then to you in english was "bind", b-i-n-d. mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. anything else? mrs. paine. i have written the word "thaw" and crossed it out; that was wrong. mr. jenner. meaning what, mrs. paine? mrs. paine. i had the wrong translation for that word. i realized it later. mr. jenner. what was the word rather than---- mrs. paine. the meaning was "insists"; the rest of the markings by me are underlinings. mr. jenner. i will cover those by asking you this. were there any underlinings on the letter placed there by marina oswald at the time you received the letter? mrs. paine. only one, under this word here. mr. jenner. that is on the reverse side of the second page of the letter? mrs. paine. it is on the last page. the second page; yes. mr. jenner. it is the reverse side of the second sheet of paper? mrs. paine. right. mr. jenner. and it looks to help from her as though it is an arrow, is that correct? mrs. paine. there is an underline and then from the underlined word is an arrow. mr. jenner. i offer in evidence as commission exhibits nos. and the documents now so marked and identified by the witness. mr. mccloy. they may be admitted. (the documents referred to, heretofore marked for identification as commission exhibits nos. and , were received in evidence.) mr. jenner. would you retain that for a moment, please? mr. dulles. may i ask, is the envelope a attached? mr. jenner. yes; and in the ease of the earlier exhibit the envelope---- mrs. paine. it is only the second envelope we have had. mr. jenner. the envelope accompanying exhibit was marked a, and the envelope now accompanying is marked a. mr. mccloy. is it so marked now? mr. dulles. do you wish me to mark it? (the enevelope was marked commission exhibit a for identification and received in evidence.) mr. jenner. have you supplied the commission, mrs. paine, with your translation of that letter? mrs. paine. yes, i have. mr. jenner. and your interpretation and the effect or the impression that you had of that letter when you received it and as you read it? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. now, turning to the first page, i would like to direct attention---- mr. dulles. do you wish this back? mrs. paine. no; i will look at the translation. mr. jenner. she has supplied me with an interpretation. in the first paragraph it reads and i quote, and you follow me, please. i will read the whole paragraph: "here it is already a week since i received your letter. i can't produce any excuses as there are no valid reasons. i am ashamed to confess that i am a person of moods and my mood currently is such that i don't feel much like anything. as soon as you left all love stopped and i am very hurt that lee's attitude toward me is such that i feel each minute that i bind him. he insists that i leave america which i don't want to do at all. i like america very much and i think that even without lee i would not be lost here. what do you think?" had you had any discussion with marina when you were in new orleans on the subject matters which i have just read to you from the first paragraph of her letter, commission exhibit no. ? mrs. paine. there was no such discussion in new orleans. mr. jenner. what impact did this have on you, mrs. paine, when you received this letter and read that first paragraph? mrs. paine. it was a repetition, or similar to something she had told me late in march, which i have already put on the record yesterday, saying basically that he wanted her to go back, wanted to send her back to the soviet union. mr. jenner. and to send her back alone, is that correct? mrs. paine. that was the impression i carried. mr. jenner. was there ever any occassion, during all your acquaintance with the oswalds, when there was any suggestion or implication that if she returned to russia, at his request, that he would accompany her? mrs. paine. there was no such suggestion. mr. jenner. was it always that she was to go to russia alone? mrs. paine. as she described it, it carried from her the feeling that she was being sent away. mr. jenner. what about the little child, june? mrs. paine. june with her. mr. jenner. was to accompany her to russia. now, the second paragraph, if i may: "this is the basic question which doesn't leave me day or night. and again lee has said to me that he doesn't love me. so you see we came to mistaken conclusions. it is hard for you and me to live without a return of our love interest gone. how would it all end?" had there been discussions between you and marina oswald on the subject of whether or not her husband had love for her, and in that area? mrs. paine. what i particularly recall is what i mentioned yesterday, when he telephoned her and said he had found a job and wanted her to come---- mr. jenner. this was just before going to new orleans? mrs. paine. just before going to new orleans. mr. jenner. in the spring? mrs. paine. right. she said "papa loves us," as i have testified. she had wondered to me during the weeks previous whether he did, whether she loved him. but was clearly elated by his call and gradually came to her own conclusions. really, i had no ground upon which to make a conclusion. mr. dulles. she was speaking in russian then to you? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. now, were you impressed that this paragraph, however, was not consistent with her immediate response at the time that telephone call had been made to her? mrs. paine. it showed me there was not as much change as she had hoped. mr. jenner. did you have any discussion with her on this subject when you were in new orleans, and when you took her or when you were taking her from irving, tex., to new orleans? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. none whatsoever. when you were in new orleans, mrs. paine, did you tour any night clubs? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. did you or marina ever evidence any interest in touring bourbon street, for example? mrs. paine. you are talking about the spring visit? mr. jenner. yes; i am. mrs. paine. we went to the french quarter during the day. mr. jenner. please identify whom you include when you say "we." mrs. paine. lee, marina, i, and three children. mr. jenner. did all of you, including lee, go to the french quarter? mrs. paine. yes; we did. mr. jenner. did you tour the bourbon street areas, royal street, and the other areas? mrs. paine. no; we did not. mr. jenner. will you tell us without any length--you did not. this was a tourist visit of the french quarter, is that right? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. in the day? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. with the children? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. was anything said during the course of that tourist visit about visiting bourbon street at night rather than in the daytime? mrs. paine. i don't recall that there was anything said. mr. jenner. was there any discussion about lee oswald visiting or frequenting night clubs? mrs. paine. none. mr. jenner. either in dallas, or in new orleans or in irving, tex.? mrs. paine. none; at any time. mr. jenner. did any one of you tour bourbon street at night during that spring visit? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. any discussion of the subject? mrs. paine. not to my recollection. mr. jenner. was there a subsequent occasion when you did visit bourbon street at night? mrs. paine. in september, when i visited again in new orleans. shall i tell that? mr. jenner. yes; please, because there is a measure of contrast to that i would like to bring out. mrs. paine. marina and i and our three small children went down in the early evening and walked along the street. mr. jenner. would you tell us how that came about, whether lee oswald accompanied you? mrs. paine. he did not accompany us. he was asked if he wanted to go, and he said he did not. marina was interested in my seeing bourbon street at night simply as a tourist attraction. mr. jenner. and you two girls took your children? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. did she take june? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. you two girls walked down bourbon street? mrs. paine. and one of us very pregnant. mr. jenner. and observed everything from the outside. you didn't go inside any night clubs? mrs. paine. no. in fact, when i realized we weren't permitted, we went on. mr. jenner. you had small children? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. was there any discussion with mr. oswald at that time or with marina which led you to form a judgment as to whether he was a man who might, or would, or had frequented night clubs? mrs. paine. i judged he was not such a person. mr. jenner. in all your experiences with the oswalds from february, sometime in february , even to the present date, had any mention been made of lee oswald frequenting night clubs? mrs. paine. none. mr. jenner. or of marina at any time? mrs. paine. no mention of her. mr. dulles. did you get the impression when you made this trip that marina had previously made the trip herself, that she seemed to know the surroundings? mrs. paine. this occurs in the next paragraph of the letter she wrote in may, so i knew she had been herself. mr. dulles. she had been there before? mrs. paine. yes. from the letter i judge with lee accompanying her. mr. jenner. mrs. paine, if you will pardon me. mr. reporter, will you read the question? (question read.) mr. jenner. would you answer just that question? mrs. paine. yes. mr. mccloy. she did answer it. mr. jenner. i didn't think she did. mr. dulles. i think she said "yes." mr. jenner. now the letter of may th to you does make reference to visits to the french quarter, is that correct? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. gentlemen of the commission, that portion of the letter reads as follows: "now a bit about the impressions i have received this week. last saturday we went to aunt lillian's"--aunt lillian, mrs. paine, is lee oswald's aunt? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. mrs. murret? mrs. paine. mrs. murret. mr. jenner. "and leaving june with her we are at the lake. lee wanted to catch crabs but caught nothing. i have a very high opinion of his relatives." by the way, what was your opinion of his relatives? mrs. paine. i met them only once. i thought them to be very nice. mr. jenner. "straightforward and kind people. to me they are very attentive. i like them. we have been to the french quarter in the evening. it is a shame you didn't manage to get there in the evening. for me it was especially interesting as it was the first time in my life i had seen such. there were many night clubs there. through the open doors were visible barrel covered dancing girls (so as not to say entirely unclothed). most of them had really very pretty, rare figures and if one doesn't think about too many things then one can like them very much. there were a great many tourists there. for the most part very rich. we have been to the near park again." that is all of that paragraph dealing with the nightclubs. now, did you ever know a man or person by the name of jack rubinstein or jack ruby? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. prior to november , ? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. did you ever hear of any such individual? mrs. paine. no, i did not. mr. jenner. had you frequented a nightclub in irving or in dallas prior to november , ? mrs. paine. not at any time. in either town. mr. jenner. you and your husband michael were not in the habit of visiting, frequenting nightclubs? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. it is a fact, is it not, mrs. paine that neither you nor mr. paine attended nightclubs at all? mrs. paine. that is correct. mr. jenner. is this true prior to your moving to irving? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. was there anything that occurred during all these months of your acquaintance with the oswalds that did or might have led you to any opinion as to lee's frequenting of nightclubs or his acquaintance with nightclubs or his being intimate with nightclub people? mrs. paine. during the entire time, is that your question? mr. jenner. yes. let us end the day for you for this purpose at november , ? mrs. paine. he was, i would say, actively disinterested in going down to bourbon street in the last weekend in september. mr. jenner. but even prior to that time? mrs. paine. it was the st. mr. jenner. had anything occurred by way of a remark at all that made an impression on you in the area of his being acquainted possibly with any nightclub people, any entertainers? mrs. paine. there had been no hint of any sort that he was acquainted with nightclub people? mr. mccloy. whether in dallas, new orleans or irving? mrs. paine. that is right. of course, i had not talked to him a great deal up to the new orleans trip. then after that time there was also no hint or mention of any nightclub people. after that time in new orleans he did refuse table wine at my home, so i got the impression of him as a person who didn't like to drink. mr. jenner. during all your acquaintance with lee harvey oswald, did you ever see him take a drink of spirits, intoxicating spirits? mrs. paine. it is possible he had beer at the initial party on the d of february, that is as far as i can remember. mr. jenner. what impression did you have of him as a man of temperance? mrs. paine. he teased marina about liking wine as if it displeased him mildly. mr. jenner. excuse me, mrs. paine. you are talking in terms of conclusions which is all right with me if you will give me the specifics also. could you give us an example or an occasion of what you have in mind? mrs. paine. well, at the same occasion when he refused the wine, she had some. mr. jenner. i see. did he say something that led you to say he was teasing her? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. would you describe what that was? mrs. paine. indicating a mild disapproval. mr. jenner. would you please relate to the commission your impression of marina oswald as a temperate person? mrs. paine. she did not like liquors. mr. jenner. what we would call hard liquor? mrs. paine. strong spirits. mr. jenner. strong spirits. mrs. paine. but she did drink beer at my home, and did occasionally have wine. mr. jenner. she occasionally had a bit of wine and she occasionally had some beer? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. is that the extent of, as far as your personal knowledge is concerned, her indulgence in intoxicating spirits? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. does that likewise describe your indulgence or do you---- mrs. paine. i would also drink a cocktail on occasion. mr. jenner. but very limited and just an occasional drink? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. is that likewise true of your husband, michael? mrs. paine. yes. representative ford. did marina ever drink to excess? mrs. paine. certainly not that i ever heard about or saw. mr. jenner. not that you ever heard about or that you saw? mrs. paine. or saw. mr. jenner. from your testimony that is certainly true with lee harvey oswald? mrs. paine. it is certainly true of him also. mr. jenner. as far as you are concerned? mrs. paine. as far as i am concerned. mr. jenner. now, i think you testified yesterday that marina would assist you in your becoming more proficient in the russian language by returning letters that you had written her, upon which she would place her comments of instruction or criticism or suggestion? mrs. paine. before she left for new orleans in may, she offered to correct and send back any letters i wrote to her. in the correspondence which included some four letters with her altogether, there was only one of mine that was actually corrected and sent back and you have that. mr. jenner. i have marked a three-page document as commission exhibit , and the envelope as commission exhibit a, the envelope being postmarked at new orleans on june , , and being addressed to mrs. ruth paine. mrs. paine. do you want to make a separate designation for my return letter? you are looking at the letter which accompanied her letter. mr. jenner. that document i will mark as commission exhibit----may i have permission, mr. chairman, to mark this document in my own hand because the sticker, i am afraid, will obliterate some of the letter. mr. mccloy. you may. mr. jenner. i will mark this as b. now, mrs. paine, would you be good enough to identify , a, and b, the sequence in which they passed back and forth between you and mrs. oswald? mrs. paine. it includes, no. is my letter to her dated the st of june, which she---- mr. jenner. ? mrs. paine. . mr. jenner. is that document, or do you recognize the handwriting on that document? mrs. paine. that is my hand. mr. jenner. would you turn to the reverse side of the second page, third page. i see there is something on that in red crayon. mrs. paine. all the red marks and the little bit in ballpoint pen are made by her. mr. jenner. that is what i was seeking to bring out. mrs. paine. at the end it includes a note of comments. mr. jenner. now, mrs. paine, the portion of the letter in blue ink in longhand is in whose handwriting? mrs. paine. in my handwriting. mr. jenner. and the portion of the letter in red crayon on the reverse side of the third page is in whose handwriting? mrs. paine. is in her handwriting. mr. jenner. on the first page is there any of her handwriting? mrs. paine. on the first page in blue ink, ballpoint pen there is some handwriting which is hers at the top. mr. jenner. those are notations in between the lines or in the margin? mrs. paine. above my writing. yes; sir. mr. jenner. they are comments of hers on your letter? mrs. paine. and my spelling. mr. jenner. of your spelling? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. do any of those markings appear other than on the face of the first sheet? mrs. paine. in blue ink you are asking? mr. jenner. yes, i am. mrs. paine. no. the rest is all in red. mr. jenner. that then was a letter that you had sent to her? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. was it returned to you? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. did some document which you now have before you accompany the letter on its return? mrs. paine. her letter dated june th. mr. jenner. which has been marked commission exhibit b? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and you do recognize that handwriting as having been hers? mrs. paine. yes; i do. mr. jenner. of the two documents you have now identified, and b, were they enclosed in an envelope? mrs. paine. yes; they were. mr. jenner. is that envelope before you? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. it is marked commission exhibit a? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. are all those conditions of documents in the condition which they were in when you received them? mrs. paine. i have again added in my hand on her letter. mr. jenner. that is b? mrs. paine. translations of certain of the words. mr. jenner. would you please, for the purpose of the record, identify what your handwriting is, on the letter b. mrs. paine. it is above her words. most of it is in english. mr. jenner. that is in your hand? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. other than that, are the documents in the condition they were when you received them? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. there is one interesting thing to me, mrs. paine, to which i would like to draw the attention of the commission. and i direct your attention in this respect to exhibits , a, , a, , and a. each has an envelope addressed to you, and each is addressed written in english. is the handwriting on each of those envelopes marina oswald's? mrs. paine. it is. mr. jenner. she was then able to write some english, is that so? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. would you please---- mrs. paine. she learned her own address. mr. jenner. did her command of the use of the english language, at least from the writing standpoint, extend beyond those examples? mrs. paine. not to my knowledge. i knew that she looked at signs and had learned the sound value of the english letters. that she looked at the thursday supplement to the newspaper for the ads on vegetables and things with pictures on a can or something that showed the english of what it was, to try to determine what this word was and pronounce it. mr. jenner. so she did acquire some command of english with respect to reading newspapers? mrs. paine. it was not my impression that she could read a newspaper. she could pick out the sound values. it was not until october that i read with her a portion from time magazine regarding madam nhu, whenever that was news, she asked me to read this to her and translate it. i read it. mr. jenner. did you read it in english first? mrs. paine. i read it in english, giving translation of some of the words. mr. jenner. as you went along? mrs. paine. as i went along. mr. jenner. all right. mrs. paine. but many of the words, english words, were words she understood, because they were either similar to the russian or because she had learned them. i was surprised at how much she understood when i pronounced it and read it to her. representative ford. in english? mrs. paine. in english. because she was very hesitant to speak english with me, fearful that her pronunciation would not be correct. she would ask me several times, "how do i pronounce this," although she didn't think she was doing very well with the pronunciation, although she did well. mr. jenner. she was sensitive in this respect, mrs. paine, she was hesitant to use the english language in the presence, say, of americans or even the russian emigré groups? mrs. paine. i think most people are sensitive about using a language when the person they are with can understand them in the language they use better. she also talked with my immediate neighbor for a short time, when only she and the neighbor were present. i went to see about a child. mr. jenner. could your neighbor understand russian? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. but there was a measure of communication? mrs. paine. there was some communication, not a great deal. my neighbor told me after she saw marina on television in january, whatever it was, "that girl has learned a great deal of english." she was amazed at the change. representative ford. the improvement from october to january? mrs. paine. yes. mr. dulles. how would you appraise her general intelligence, her level of intelligence for a girl of that age in the early twenties? mrs. paine. i think she certainly had above average intelligence. representative ford. what prompted her, if you know, to ask about madam nhu? mrs. paine. she was interested in the family. she was worried about what madam nhu would do. madam nhu and the children still in her country. she wanted to know were these children going to come out either in paris or the united states. she was concerned, and her concern for world affairs seemed to go this way, of what is this mother and children going to do. mr. jenner. was she concerned about the conflict between the north vietnamese and the south vietnamese? mrs. paine. no; this didn't interest her, it didn't appear to. mr. jenner. it was the human side rather than the political side? mrs. paine. strictly that. mr. jenner. thank you; that is what i wanted to bring out. i offer in evidence, mr. chairman, as exhibits with those numbers, the documents marked commission exhibits , -a, and -b. mr. mccloy. it may be admitted. (the documents referred to previously, marked commission exhibits nos. , -a, and -b, were received in evidence.) (at this point, representative boggs entered the hearing room.) mr. jenner. now, mrs. paine, turning to this series of correspondence which has now been admitted in evidence, have you made an interpretation for the commission of exhibit -b? mrs. paine. yes; i have. mr. jenner. where does that appear on your summary you furnished to me last evening? mrs. paine. that begins in the middle of page , marked second letter from new orleans. mr. jenner. all right. your interpretation of the letter dealing with the night club visit of the oswalds, you have interpreted that for the commission, and that appears on page what of your summary? mrs. paine. that appears on page marked first letter from new orleans. mr. jenner. all right. were you concerned about mrs. oswald, about marina's condition and her receiving proper medical attention? mrs. paine. i was very concerned about it. mr. jenner. did you write her at any time about it? mrs. paine. i would like to refer you to my letter of june st which was returned in the document you just admitted in evidence. mr. jenner. you did write her about it? mrs. paine. i wrote particularly in that letter to lee. mr. jenner. you wrote both lee and marina? mrs. paine. in this letter i addressed each, and a particular portion of that letter is in english. mr. jenner. and that is commission exhibit no. ? mrs. paine. that was to lee, that particular portion. mr. jenner. you incorporated, did you not, in that letter, a direct communication to lee oswald? mrs. paine. i say in russian a few words to lee now about hospital and money. mr. jenner. but incorporated in your note in that letter to lee oswald you used the english rather than the russian language, did you not? mrs. paine. i wanted to speak of things i couldn't say in russian. i didn't have the vocabulary to do it with any ease in russian. mr. jenner. i see. mrs. paine. and further i particularly wanted to tell him i thought it important she get to a doctor and have prenatal care and felt he would be the one who actually got her there. it was his concern that would produce a visit to the doctor. mr. jenner. i see. that explains that portion of the letter which is commission exhibit no. . mrs. paine. . mr. jenner. i won't go into the details, mr. chairman, because these are recommendations of mrs. paine for medical care of marina oswald. mr. mccloy. do i understand you are going to read all of these into the record at the noon hour? mr. jenner. at the noon hour i will read all of these into the record rather than do it now. now you, last night, mrs paine, suggested to me you would like to make an explanation of this series of letters, and i direct your attention to page of your notes. mrs. paine. well, the commentary on page by me is---- mr. jenner. refreshing your recollection from having read it, you would like to make a statement to the commission and you may proceed to do so. mrs. paine. it doesn't refresh me enough. i could say this. that when i received -b, her letter, i read it through. i glanced at , her corrected--my letter which she had corrected, and at the note at the back which began, "you write well" and assumed this to be commentary on my letter; it was not until i sat down nearly a month later to write a proper reply to her, i read this through more carefully and found in the middle of the paragraph discussing my writing a comment by her saying, "very likely i will have to go back to russia after all." mr. jenner. for the purpose of the record there appears the red crayon to which i earlier drew your attention on the back of page . would you read that entire notation of hers so that the commission may now know that to which you are now directing your attention? mrs. paine. in the back of my letter she writes in red pencil, "you write well, when will i write that way in english. i think never. very likely i will have to go back to russia after all. a pity." mr. dulles. what was the last? mrs. paine. "a pity." mr. jenner. i take it when you first read that notation on the back of the third page of the letter you had not noticed the sentence, "very likely i will have to go to russia after all. a pity." mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. would you proceed with your comment? mrs. paine. this was early july when i read this letter more carefully and i was shocked that i hadn't noticed this. that my poor russian made a scanning of the letter not adequate to picking that up, and i wrote her immediately apologizing for my bad understanding, and i don't have that letter, but i have three which followed it, and---- mr. jenner. excuse me. do you have a draft, have you produced for the commission your immediate preceding draft of that letter? mrs. paine. i have no rough draft of my first letter explaining my shock and my worry at this statement of hers. mr. jenner. i see. mrs. paine. but i have rough drafts of three letters i wrote subsequently. mr. jenner. have you ever seen at any time a copy or the original of the letter that you wrote, a draft of which you do not have? mrs. paine. no; i haven't. mr. jenner. would you please relate to the commission your present recollection of the substance and content of that letter? mrs. paine. much what i have said. that i apologized that my poor russian didn't see this immediately and i inquired after her what she was doing, and asked to hear from her. mr. jenner. you say, that sentence when you finally did read it rather shocked you. would you rather--would you elaborate on that statement to the commission? why did that shock you? mrs. paine. it seemed more final than anything else that had preceded. she had told me in march that he had asked her to go back, that she had written to the embassy but she didn't reply to the embassy when the embassy inquired why. it looked as though she was able to just say no by not doing anything about it. but this, on the other hand, looked as if she was resigned to the necessity to go back. mr. jenner. were you aware at this time, mrs. paine, that lee had applied to the state department for a passport and had obtained one? mrs. paine. no; i was not aware of that. mr. jenner. when did you first become aware of that, if you ever did? mrs. paine. it was considerably after the assassination, and i read it in a paper. i still don't remember what time or day it was. mr. jenner. now, did you write marina on or about the th of july? mrs. paine. i have a rough draft of that date. mr. jenner. i hand you a document of two pages which has been identified as commission exhibit no. . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) would you please tell us what that document is? mrs. paine. this is the rough draft, to which i just referred, written to marina. mr. jenner. and you thereupon prepared the final draft and sent it? mrs. paine. that is correct. mr. jenner. this represents, does it not, your best recollection of the contents of the letter, the letter in its final form as you transmitted it to marina? mrs. paine. i think this is probably a very accurate representation of the letter in its final form. it was the first time i put on paper an invitation to her to come and stay with me for anything more than a few weeks around the birth of the baby. mr. jenner. have you supplied the commission with a translation of your letter? mrs. paine. yes; i have. mr. jenner. and that appears at the bottom of page of your notes which you have supplied to me? mrs. paine. that is correct. mr. jenner. i direct your attention, if i may, and the attention of the commission as interpreted by mrs. paine, the first sentence reads, "dear marina, if lee doesn't wish to live with you any more and prefers that you go to the soviet union, think about the possibility of living with me." you just said--is that the portion of your letter which you say this is the first invitation you made to marina to come to live with you generally? mrs. paine. this was the first written invitation. mr. jenner. i see. mrs. paine. i had made an informal invitation face to face when she was staying the first week in may, but felt as i made it that she didn't take this seriously. mr. jenner. now, you go on in your letter and you make reference, for example, to--let's take the second paragraph of your letter appearing at the top of page of your notes, "you know i have long received from my parents, i live dependent a long time. i would be happy to be an aunt to you and i can. we have sufficient money. michael will be glad. this i know. he just gave me $ for the vacation or something necessary. with this money it is possible to pay the doctor and hospital in october when the baby is born, believe god. all will be well for you and the children. i confess that i think that the opportunity for me to know you came from god. perhaps it is not so but i think and believe so." had you discussed this matter with your husband? mrs. paine. yes; i had. mr. jenner. and you were still living separate and apart at that time? mrs. paine. yes. but i felt so long as i was not yet earning, he would be the one, in fact, who was supporting all of us. mr. jenner. i think the commission might be interested in that. you were not taking this action, either in the earlier stage in the early spring or in the summer of inviting marina to live with you without discussing that with your husband even though you and your husband at that time were separated? mrs. paine. that is correct. mr. jenner. did you do anything, mrs. paine, in this connection with respect to keeping lee oswald informed of your invitations and your communications in this area with marina? mrs. paine. i wrote into the letter that i hoped--well you might just read the last paragraph. mr. jenner. would you mind reading it? mrs. paine. i will read it, the last paragraph in the letter, and i might say that the entire letter i wrote with the possibility in mind that he should see this. mr. jenner. did you desire that he do see it? mrs. paine. i wanted him to--her to feel free to show it to him. i didn't want her to come to my house if this offended or injured him, if this was in some way---- (at this point, senator cooper entered the hearing room.) mr. jenner. divisive? mrs. paine. if he did in fact want to keep his family together, i certainly wanted him to, but if the bulk of his feelings lay on the side of wanting to be away, separated from marina, then i thought it was legitimate for him to have that alternative, although it was not legitimate for him to simply send her back if she didn't want to go. mr. jenner. send her back where? mrs. paine. to the soviet union, if she didn't want to go. so in this light i will read the last paragraph of commission exhibit : "i don't want to hurt lee with this invitation to you. only i think that it would be better that you and he do not live together if you do not receive happiness. i understand how michael feels. he doesn't love me and wants a chance to look for another life and another wife. he must do this, it seems, and so it is better for us not to live together. i don't know how lee feels. i would like to know. surely things are hard for him now, too. i hope that he would be glad to see you with me where he can know that you and the children will receive everything that is necessary and he would not need to worry about it. thus he could start life again." mr. jenner. mrs. paine, having all this in mind and what you have testified to up to now, would you please tell the gentlemen of the commission the factors and motivations you had in inviting marina to come live with you; first to have her baby, next on a more extended scale, all of the factors that motivated you in your offer, in your own words? mrs. paine. the first invitation, just to come for a few weeks at the time of the birth is a simpler question, i will answer that first. i felt that she would need someone simply to take care of her older child for the time that she was in the hospital, and that things would be easier for her if she didn't have to immediately take up the full household chores upon returning from the hospital. this was a very simple offer. mr. jenner. that was all that motivated you at that time? mrs. paine. now, in asking her to come and stay for a more extended period, i had many feelings. i was living alone with my children, at that time, had been since the previous fall, nearly a year, at the time this letter is written. i had no idea that my husband might move back to the house. i was tired of living alone and lonely, and here was a woman who was alone and in a sense also, if lee, in fact didn't want to be with her, and further she was a person i liked. i had lived with her weeks in late april and early may. i enjoyed her company. further, being able to talk russian with her added a wider dimension to my rather small and boring life as a young mother. i didn't want to go out and get a job because i wanted to be home with my children, but on the other hand, i saw a way to, and that is part of what studying russian altogether is for me, a way to make my daily life more interesting. i also felt when i first heard in march that lee was wanting to send marina back, that is how it was presented to me, that it just seemed a shame that our country couldn't be a more hospitable thing for her if she wanted so much to stay, that i thought she should have that opportunity. i was pleased that she liked america, and thought that she should have a chance to stay here and raise her children here as she wished. i might say also if i had not been living alone i would not have undertaken such an invitation. my house is small and it wouldn't have gone with married life. mr. jenner. i wanted to afford you that opportunity. now, you have related all the factors that motivated you? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. i offer in evidence as commission exhibit no. the document which has been so identified. mr. mccloy. it may be admitted. (the document referred to, previously marked as commission exhibit no. for identification, was received in evidence.) mr. mccloy. we have been going for an hour and a half. if you would like to have a recess you may have it. mrs. paine. i am all right. mr. mccloy. all right, we will go on then. mr. jenner. you mentioned in the course of your explanation earlier a series of three letters. i hand you a draft of letter dated july , , addressed to dear marina, consisting of two pages, which we will mark as commission exhibit no. . and another one-page letter which we will mark as commission exhibit no. . in whose handwriting is each of those exhibits? mrs. paine. each of these are in my handwriting. mr. jenner. and they are drafts, are they? mrs. paine. they are. mr. jenner. and you would then, after making those drafts put them in final form? mrs. paine. that is correct. mr. jenner. did you transmit the final draft of letter to marina oswald? mrs. paine. i mailed them to her address in new orleans. mr. jenner. have you supplied me with your translation of both of those drafts? mrs. paine. i have. mr. jenner. each draft is in your handwriting? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and the interpretations appearing at the bottom of page and the bottom of page are the material you supplied me and they consist of your interpretations of those letters or translations, rather? mrs. paine. that is right. they are dated respectively july and july . mr. jenner. i hand you a picture copy rather than a photostatic copy of a two-page letter dated july , , and a translation of that letter which we will mark as commission exhibits nos. and , respectively. (the documents referred to were marked commission exhibits nos. and for identification.) mr. jenner. directing your attention to exhibit , would you tell us what that is? mrs. paine. this appears to be a photograph of the letter i then wrote from my final draft and sent to marina, dated the th of july. mr. jenner. so that exhibit no. is the---- mrs. paine. , the photograph. mr. jenner. is to the best of your recollection an actual picture of your final draft letter as transmitted to marina? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. now directing your attention to page of the material that you supplied me, and which you discussed with me last evening, you wished to make a statement to the commission with respect to this letter, do you? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. all right. would you please proceed to do so? mrs. paine. i think it would be easier if i read what is here. mr. jenner. any way you want to handle it, mrs. paine. mrs. paine. marina stayed with me weeks in the spring as you know, and i realized then what a proud and capable person she is. she was not accustomed to accept help from others, and i knew that her pride and independence would be a stumbling block to her accepting help even though she needed it. i respected her for this and somehow i wanted to ease such acceptance for her, and to explain that the situation i proposed would be a situation of mutual help. i hoped--now i should say that in commission exhibit---- mr. jenner. they are to your right on the table. mrs. paine. yes; and , i mentioned that if she were counted as a dependent on michael's income tax his yearly payment to the government would be reduced by a certain amount, and that by that amount she--we could very nearly live--her expenses could very nearly come under this, so it would be more a case of breaking even than a case of her accepting so much as she might think from us. but i think that in fact this reference to the tax reduction did not encourage her, as i had hoped. mr. jenner. it wasn't quite correct either, was it, mrs. paine? (laughter.) mrs. paine. did i get a chance to read the second letter as written at a.m. and i was hopeful only more than---- mr. jenner. mrs. paine, i think the members of the commission and also you from our talk last night, are interested in your letters which you have now identified suggesting financial arrangements to mrs. oswald, since to one who might read them without knowing the background they might seem crass. mrs. paine. i felt crass in russian, particularly. mr. jenner. i was not thinking in terms of your difficulty in communicating with her, but you had no selfish or ulterior financial motive, did you, in this connection? mrs. paine. did it appear that? mr. jenner. it might. mrs. paine. even with such bad arithmetic. mr. jenner. your arithmetic was all right. your interpretation of the law was not as good as it might be. mr. dulles. am i not correct, i understood you were trying to make her feel she was not going to be a burden to you? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. dulles. and were using certain subterfuges to accomplish that; that is the impression i got from what you said. mrs. paine. that is absolutely correct. that i hoped, and further i would say in the letters to her i made reference that this money not paid to the government would be therefore available for spending money for her. i had put myself in her position and thought wouldn't it be terrible to have to ask for a nickel for a package of lifesavers every time you wanted it, and thought i wouldn't want to be in such a situation if she doesn't have her own, something she can count upon as her own money, it would be unbearable to her. so i tried to cast about both for a way of making her feel that this would not be a burden to us, and a way of getting her petty cash in the pocket that she would not feel was a handout. so that it would be a legitimate possibility for her to consider. i judge that my effort in this regard, besides the bad understanding of the tax law and the poor arithmetic, didn't help because of her following letter. mr. jenner. that is what i was coming to. before we get to that, mrs. paine, i direct your attention to commission exhibit no. . mrs. paine. ? mr. jenner. that is a translation of your letter, commission exhibit no. . have you read that translation? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. is there anything in the translation to which you might desire to take exception or at least make a comment? (at this point chief justice warren left the hearing room.) mrs. paine. one minute. yes, it accurately reflects some of my bad russian. mr. jenner. you take no exception to the translation? mrs. paine. i think no. mr. jenner. mr. chairman, if you please, i offer in evidence, mr. dulles, may i have those exhibits---- mr. mccloy. they may be admitted. mr. jenner. as commission exhibits , , and , the documents that had been so marked? mr. mccloy. they will be admitted. (the documents referred, previously marked commission exhibits nos. , , , and , were received in evidence.) mr. jenner. you did receive a response from marina, did you not, mrs. paine? mrs. paine. yes; i did. mr. jenner. and is the response the document now handed to you marked commission exhibit no. ? mrs. paine. yes; it is. mr. jenner. and you supplied the commission with your translation of that letter and that translation---- mrs. paine. is that what you said? mr. jenner. . it appears on pages , , and of the material you supplied me. mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. you don't have an envelope but you have a letter. mrs. paine. i don't have an envelope. i don't know what happened to it. mr. jenner. is the exhibit in marina oswald's handwriting? mrs. paine. yes; it is. mr. jenner. is there anything on the exhibit other than that in the handwriting of marina oswald? mrs. paine. there are a few underlinings on the page marked four. mr. jenner. who placed them there? mrs. paine. which are my own. mr. jenner. all right. anything else? mrs. paine. except for the underlining "he does not know" at the very bottom. mr. jenner. "he" refers to whom? mrs. paine. lee. mr. jenner. you were about to state to the commission marina oswald's reaction to your series of invitations. is that correct? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. would you proceed then? mrs. paine. as reflected in this letter. this was the third letter i received from her after a space of over a month, and i had been very concerned about her. i was much relieved to get it. she said she had been to the doctor and her condition was normal. she responded to this series of four letters of which we have three in rough draft, saying--shall i read in some of the things said? mr. jenner. to the extent that you desire to do so. we will not read the whole letter, it is quite long; that which is pertinent to what you have in mind. mrs. paine. well, that for a considerable period lee has been good to her, she writes. he talks a lot about the coming baby. mr. jenner. perhaps you might pick out--there are only about four sentences. mrs. paine. "he has become more attentive and we hardly quarrel". mr. jenner. this indicates a change somewhat in relationship and would you please read that portion of the letter? mrs. paine. yes. mr. dulles. could we have the date of this letter once again? mrs. paine. the date of the letter. we have no date on the letter. it was written somewhere between july and july , which is the date of my reply. mr. jenner. that is how you identify it? mrs. paine. yes. representative ford. this is ? mrs. paine. right. again, "he has become much more attentive and we hardly quarrel. true i have to give in a great deal. it could not be otherwise. but if one wants peace then it is necessary to give in. we went to the doctor, my condition is normal." and she thanks me for the invitation and thanks michael also and says: "i would try to take advantage of it if things really become worse, if lee becomes coarse with me again and treats me badly." mr. jenner. i direct your attention to the paragraph following that one, mrs. paine. mrs. paine. now another question: "if as is possible it becomes necessary for me to come to live with you in order to say that i am a dependent of michael's surely it would be necessary to have an official divorce, isn't that so? but i think lee would not agree to a divorce, and to go simply from him to become a burden to you that i don't wish. surely michael would need to have a paper showing that i am living at his expense but no one would just take his word for it, right?" and i realized much later that in the soviet union you don't do anything without the proper papers, and just having a person under your roof for anyone to see, having them in fact eating at your table is not, would not be, sufficient proof--would not be sufficient there in russia. representative boggs. it might not be here. mrs. paine. it might not be here. well, in any case i judged she felt, reading my invitations this was of some importance to me whether michael counted her as a deduction, and so on, whereas in fact this wasn't the point at all, but that i had hoped to somehow make, if possible, for her to accept such help. mr. jenner. have you finished your observations? representative boggs. as a matter of fact, there are certain limitations under our law as to how you can claim a dependent. mrs. paine. well, i asked a few people who didn't know much about it before i wrote it. representative boggs. yes. mr. jenner. the tenor then of this letter was as i gather from your testimony and as you have related to me last evening whether she would come to live with you in the fall or generally was something which now became subject to reconsideration? mrs. paine. pardon? mr. jenner. the matter of her coming to live with you, the possibility of her living with you on a more extended basis than---- mrs. paine. was an invitation i had made to her. mr. jenner. and that her response was not acceptance but one that she would now defer? mrs. paine. it was a "thank you" and a refusal basically. mr. jenner. did you respond to that letter? mrs. paine. yes; i did. my letter is dated july . mr. jenner. mr. liebeler will mark that commission exhibit , which consists of how many pages, mr. liebeler, three pages. you have that exhibit. is that exhibit all in your handwriting? mrs. paine. yes; it is. mr. jenner. is that the draft of letter to which you have reference being your response to marina's letter of---- mrs. paine. undated letter. mr. jenner. undated letter which would be somewhere just prior to july ? mrs. paine. right. mr. jenner. and is that a draft of letter in the same condition now as it was when you completed it? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. have you supplied the commission with a translation of that letter? mrs. paine. i have. mr. jenner. we will mark as commission exhibits and two exhibits, the first being a one-page exhibit entitled "translation from russian", and the second being a four page photograph of what appears to be a letter dated july , . directing your attention to exhibit . mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. do you find it? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. would you please identify that exhibit? it consists of four pages. mrs. paine. it appears to be a photograph of my letter to her of july . mr. jenner. having observed it and looked at it last night, is it your best recollection at the moment that it is a photograph of the letter that you actually transmitted to marina? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. directing your attention to the next exhibit which is no. ---- mrs. paine. , you are talking about the translation. mr. jenner. is that a translation of the letter, of your letter to her? mrs. paine. that is far from complete. representative ford. it is far from complete? mrs. paine. far from complete. it is incomplete. mr. jenner. i would like to have you make then, directing your attention to the translation that has been supplied us. mrs. paine. it goes as far as two-thirds down on page , you must have more somewhere. mr. jenner. no; that is all we have. would you mark with this red marker pen the point to which exhibit is a translation? mrs. paine. here. mr. jenner. is the translation accurate up to that point or rather do you have any exceptions to it? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. in relation to what? mrs. paine. "this would" on the next to the last paragraph "this would offend my father very much." "this hurt my father", no subjunctive to it. mr. jenner. do it this way. read what is on it, what the interpreter---- mrs. paine. wait. mr. jenner. said. mrs. paine. i guess that is just the interpreter trying to "offer you an alternative". state the question again. you want to know if i take any exception to the translation i have before me, this portion of my july letter? they are all small. mr. jenner. they are small and none of consequence. mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. so far as you are concerned. your translation, however, that you supplied the commission is as far as you are concerned accurate and what you intend to say, at least? mrs. paine. yes; and i think it is what i said. mr. jenner. all right. i offer in evidence, if the chairman please, the documents that have been marked--may i have them please, representative ford? mrs. paine. these, too? mr. jenner. documents marked , , , and . mr. mccloy. do i understand there is not a complete translation? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. mccloy. of the letter. it is an incomplete translation? mrs. paine. there is a page somewhere. mr. jenner. that is correct. during the noon hour i will see if that is not a mistake and if i can be supplied with the balance, if there is a balance. mr. mccloy. they may be admitted in this form and then you can advise us after the recess whether there is anything additional to insert at this point. (the documents referred to, heretofore marked commission exhibits nos. , , , and , were received in evidence.) mr. jenner. now, there is a matter to which i would like to draw your attention in your letter of july , which is commission exhibit no. , the last portion of it, and i direct your attention, in turn, to your own interpretation appearing at page . the last paragraph, when you brought marina to new orleans, did you do anything by way of seeking to have people in new orleans visit her? mrs. paine. no. i have already testified that after an initial warm greeting with lee, they quarreled, and i was uncomfortable there, and wanted to get back home. i had thought of making contact for marina with someone in the russian speaking community in new orleans, and later when i didn't hear from her after this note that looks like "i will have to go back to russia after all," i much regretted that i had not made some contact for her, someone she could talk to, herself. and anxious, not having heard from her a month from the time of this appendage to my corrected letter, i telephoned ruth kloepfer who is the clerk of the quaker meeting in new orleans. mr. jenner. would you spell her name, please? mrs. paine. she is not someone i know. that is spelled k-l-o-e-p-f-e-r, and i asked her if she knew any russians in new orleans. she did not. i then wrote to mrs. paul blanchard. mr. jenner. excuse me, when you use the pronoun "she" there you asked marina? mrs. paine. i asked mrs. kloepfer if she knew any russian-speaking people and described why i was interested in knowing. i must have given her the address of marina, probably asked that she go and see her. in any case, i have a letter which followed that telephone call, which i wrote to mrs. paul blanchard. mr. mccloy. pardon me, did you say you telephoned to mrs. blanchard or you wrote to mrs. blanchard? mrs. paine. i wrote to mrs. blanchard, i had originally telephoned to mrs. kloepfer. mr. jenner. did you make the telephone call when you were in new orleans? mrs. paine. no; this was when i was concerned. i had not heard from marina for a month. i did not know whether she was in good health or had gone back to the soviet union. mr. jenner. so you called mrs. kloepfer in new orleans? mrs. paine. that is correct. after having tried to call the murrets. i had not had their name accurately. representative boggs. how did you happen to write to mrs. blanchard? mrs. paine. she is the secretary of the unitarian church in new orleans and i called the quaker church in dallas to find out who was in new orleans of the quakers, and then i called the unitarian church which my husband belongs to in dallas to find out who the secretary of the new orleans unitarian church was. representative boggs. you do not know mrs. blanchard? mrs. paine. i did not know her, and i did not know mrs. kloepfer either, and appended to this that i am leaving with the commission is my carbon of a letter to mrs. blanchard of the unitarian church, which i sent in carbon to mrs. kloepfer so each would know what the other was doing in an effort to find a russian-speaking person who could be a contact for marina. (at this point representative ford left the hearing room.) mr. jenner. mrs. paine, you have now mentioned a letter that you wrote to mrs. blanchard; have you supplied the commission with a carbon copy of that letter? mrs. paine. i have. mr. jenner. and it is a two-page document, mr. chairman, dated july , , now marked as commission exhibit . that exhibit has now been handed to you, mrs. paine. is that the carbon copy of your letter to mrs. blanchard? mrs. paine. yes; it is. mr. jenner. you did not know mrs. blanchard, had never heard of her prior to the time you wrote the letter? mrs. paine. that is correct. it begins saying, "mrs. philip harper, the secretary of the dallas unitarian church, suggested i write to you when i told her of the following problem." mr. jenner. is the document in the same condition now as it was when you prepared the original of which that is a carbon copy? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. i offer in evidence as commission exhibit no. the document which has been so identified. mr. mccloy. it may be so admitted. (the document referred to was marked for identification as commission exhibit no. and received in evidence.) mrs. paine. will there be any difficulty that it starts with typing and then it goes carbon? mr. jenner. explain that. mrs. paine. i wrote two carbon paragraphs and then i thought i should write a carbon of this to mrs. blanchard and put in a carbon and then in my own copy put in typing. mr. jenner. so that which appears to be a copy is an original and that which follows, what appears to be original, is an actual carbon copy of the letter you actually sent to mrs. blanchard? mrs. paine. with copy stated here to mrs. kloepfer. mr. jenner. did you hear from marina on that subject at any time? mrs. paine. yes. in her succeeding and last letter that i got from her. mr. jenner. her succeeding letter is dated what? mrs. paine. it has no date inside. it is postmarked august from new orleans and sent to me while i was on vacation. mr. jenner. we have marked as commission exhibit no. the envelope and attached to is what purports to be a four-page letter in russian longhand--may we have this as a group exhibit consisting of the envelope and the four-page letter? mr. mccloy. if it is properly attached i guess you can. mrs. paine. there is no date on the letter, if they separate you don't know what it is. mr. jenner. we have marked the four-page letter as commission exhibit in order to avoid any difficulty. directing your attention to exhibit , do you recognize the handwriting on that exhibit? mrs. paine. yes; that is marina oswald's handwriting. mr. jenner. that is a letter to you, is it not? mrs. paine. yes; it is. mr. jenner. and you supplied the commission with your translation of that letter? mrs. paine. yes; i have. mr. jenner. that appears at pages and of the materials you furnished me? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. is that letter in the same condition now as it was when you received it? mrs. paine. yes; with the exception of an addition in my handwriting on the bottom of unmarked page . mr. jenner. would you read that? mrs. paine. which is a translation of one word. mr. jenner. what word is that? mrs. paine. a word means to grow downcast. mr. dulles. i didn't catch that. mrs. paine. to grow downcast, to lose courage. mr. jenner. directing your attention to the envelope which is marked commission exhibit . mrs. paine. i want to make one other comment. i underlined the word on the second page that i have translated as "winsome." mr. jenner. w-i-n-s-o-m-e? mrs. paine. yes. the other underlinings in her letter are her own. mr. jenner. all right. directing your attention to the pink envelope which is commission exhibit no. , was exhibit enclosed in exhibit ? mrs. paine. yes; it was. mr. jenner. that also is in english, that is the address? mrs. paine. the address is in english, addressed to me while on vacation. mr. jenner. and you received those documents in due course? mrs. paine. which documents? mr. jenner. you received the documents in due course? mrs. paine. it was not forwarded. it was addressed to me where i was. mr. jenner. but you received them is all i am asking? mrs. paine. oh, yes. mr. jenner. i offer in evidence as commission exhibits and , the documents which have been so marked. mr. mccloy. they may be so admitted. (the documents referred to were marked commission exhibits nos. and for identification and received in evidence.) mr. jenner. there is one item in exhibit to which i wish to direct your attention. on the last page about the third paragraph from the bottom appears the second sentence, "lee doesn't have work now already three weeks." do you find that? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. had you had any information prior to the receipt of this letter that lee oswald no longer was employed in new orleans? mrs. paine. i had no such information. mr. jenner. this was your first information? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. did you respond to that letter? mrs. paine. i did. mr. jenner. i have a five-page document mr. liebeler is identifying as commission exhibit no. . mrs. paine. this is not what you want. you want my reply, don't you next? mr. jenner. that is right. mrs. paine. this is not it. you have my reply but i had had no copy of that. mr. jenner. we will keep that exhibit number. there has been identified as commission exhibit an exhibit consisting of four pages, the first three of which are a photograph of a letter, and the last page of which is a photograph of an envelope. handing you commission exhibit no. , is that a picture of your letter to marina oswald in response to her letter of august ? mrs. paine. august . yes; it is dated august , . mr. jenner. and you do recognize that as being a picture copy of letter you had written? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and you supplied the commission with a translation of that letter? mrs. paine. no; i did not. i did not have this in rough draft. i had no copy of this. you may have a translation but i do not. mr. jenner. all right. mrs. paine. i supplied you only on this summary that you have with a brief recollection of what it contained. mr. jenner. i now hand you a document, commission exhibit no. consisting of two pages which purports to be a translation of exhibit . did you review that translation with me last evening? mrs. paine. briefly. mr. jenner. to the best of your recollection at the moment of what you said last night that the translation is of exhibit ? mrs. paine. it is approximately what i recall writing. i didn't look at the russian in your pictures. mr. jenner. during the noon recess would you wish to look at that and if you have any exception you wish to take to the translation would you please state it to the commission? mrs. paine. yes. mr. mccloy. may i intervene at this point about exhibit , has that been properly identified? mrs. paine. no; not yet. mr. jenner. could we return it to the witness? exhibit is in whose handwriting? mrs. paine. it is in my handwriting. mr. jenner. is that a draft of a letter? mrs. paine. that is a letter which i wrote but never sent. mr. jenner. you testified about that letter yesterday? mrs. paine. i did. mr. jenner. did you not? mrs. paine. it is dated april . mr. jenner. have you supplied the commission with a translation, your translation of that letter? mrs. paine. yes; i have with appropriate paragraph before it saying that it was not sent, that i wrote it not necessarily to send or give to her but simply to have, i think as i testified yesterday, the words at my command ready in case it seemed appropriate to make such an invitation. mr. jenner. and this was prepared on or about april , ? mrs. paine. i would judge on the th. mr. jenner. is that letter in the same condition now as it was when you completed writing it? mrs. paine. i have added since completing writing, i have added in pencil at the top, "not sent" in english. it is otherwise the same. mr. jenner. i won't go into that further, mr. chairman, because the witness did testify about it yesterday other than to offer the document in evidence. mr. mccloy. i simply thought it needed a little elaboration. mr. jenner. you were quite right, sir. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification and received in evidence.) mr. jenner. where were you in the summer of ? mrs. paine. may i interrupt. mr. jenner. yes. mrs. paine. did you want to make any reference to the reference to lee's driving in exhibit ? mr. jenner. thank you very much, mrs. paine, and i do want to go into it. mrs. paine. i have it underlined. mr. jenner. mr. dulles, would you be good enough to let me have it? this translation which appears as commission exhibit , the fourth paragraph reads "lee told me that he learned a little from his uncle how to drive a car. it would be very useful for him to know how to drive but it is hard to find time for this when he works every day." mrs. paine. i might make a comment about that. mr. jenner. this is your comment, is it not? mrs. paine. i might make a comment about that. mr. jenner. this is your comment, is it not? mrs. paine. i wrote that. mr. jenner. now, the commission is very interested in the subject matter of mr. oswald, of lee oswald being able to drive a car and i think it might be well if we covered the whole subject from the beginning to the end. would you give the commission your full, most accurate recollection of this whole subject? start at the very beginning. mrs. paine. i think i learned either in march or april that lee---- mr. jenner. of ? mrs. paine. . mr. jenner. this would be early in your acquaintance with him? mrs. paine. very early. i learned lee was not able to drive and didn't have a license. mr. jenner. how did you learn he was not able to drive? mrs. paine. i think it was related to his looking for work the first time in the middle of april, and i had learned he had looked in the dallas area for work. mr. jenner. how did you learn it? mrs. paine. we were talking about it. mr. jenner. you were talking with lee? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. did he tell you that he was not able to drive a car? mrs. paine. that he had never learned how. mr. jenner. that he had difficulty in getting around? mrs. paine. simply he had never learned how. mr. jenner. he said this to you? mrs. paine. yes. and i felt immediately that his job opportunities, the jobs to which he could have applied, and the jobs to which he could get himself would be greatly broadened if he were able to drive and said so. mr. jenner. you said that to him? mrs. paine. and said that to him. then when we arrived in new orleans he said to me by way of almost pride that he had been allowed by his uncle to drive his uncle's car. mr. jenner. that is mr. murret? mrs. paine. i don't know whether there was more than one. mr. jenner. but he volunteered the statement to you? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and it was something that had occurred after he had gotten to new orleans? mrs. paine. and he was in a sense pleased to report to me that he was getting some experience driving. that his uncle had permitted him to drive the car on the street. mr. jenner. on the street? mrs. paine. on the street. mr. jenner. did you have occasion while you were in new orleans to verify that in any respect whatsoever? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. or have it verified to you? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. this was confined to a remark that he made to you? mrs. paine. that is right. then when i learned in marina's letter of august that lee was out of work, i immediately thought it would be well for him to make use of those free weekdays, not only for job hunting but for learning the skill of driving and, therefore, that paragraph--shall we read it? mr. jenner. haven't i already read it? mrs. paine. no; i don't think so. mr. jenner. you mean from your letter? mrs. paine. did you read that? mr. jenner. the paragraph "lee told me that he learned a little from his uncle how to drive a car." mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. did you read that "it would be very useful for him to know how to drive but it is hard to find time for this when he works every day." just to be certain of this, mrs. paine, this was a remark made to you by lee harvey oswald when you brought marina from irving, tex., to new orleans, and---- mrs. paine. the second week in may. mr. jenner. the second week in may of . and then, according to the remark made to you by lee harvey oswald that his uncle had permitted him to drive his uncle's car on the street in new orleans? mrs. paine. yes; and he was proud of this. mr. jenner. did he ask at that time or any time while you were in new orleans in the spring to drive your car? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. was there any discussion at all during--did you have the feeling that he would like to drive the car? mrs. paine. there was no discussion of it. mr. jenner. did he demonstrate to you that he could drive? mrs. paine. there was no discussion of it. mr. jenner. you have given us all that occurred in new orleans by way of conversation or otherwise on the subject of lee harvey oswald driving an automobile or his ability to drive? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. now, you are telling us the whole story on this subject. so when next---- senator cooper. may i ask this one question? mr. jenner. excuse me. senator cooper. did lee oswald identify the uncle who permitted him to drive his car? mrs. paine. senator cooper, he did not. he just said his uncle. he did not identify his uncle by name. senator cooper. do you know of your own knowledge who the uncle was? mrs. paine. i can only assume. senator cooper. what? mrs. paine. i can only assume it was the uncle he had been staying with. he had been staying at his home. mr. jenner. you had met the uncle at this time? mrs. paine. just met him. mr. jenner. so it was the uncle with whom he had been staying just before he obtained the apartment at magazine? mr. mccloy. what is the uncle's name? mr. jenner. dutz murret. this was the relative who had the nice home that marina first saw when she arrived there and thought maybe that is where she was going to live, is that correct? mrs. paine. that is correct. mr. jenner. go ahead, mrs. paine. mrs. paine. you want all other references to driving? mr. jenner. confining yourself to his ability to drive automobiles, when next, and take it in chronological order as to when you next recall it? mrs. paine. it came up next after he returned to the dallas area in october. mr. jenner. when was that? mrs. paine. after he returned on the th, to my knowledge. mr. jenner. the th of october? mrs. paine. that was the first i know. mr. jenner. we will get into the reasons and the circumstances but you stick with the automobile incidents. mrs. paine. he was looking for work. mr. jenner. in dallas? mrs. paine. in the dallas area and again, of course, i felt that he could find more jobs, be eligible for more if he could drive. mr. jenner. what did you do about it? mrs. paine. i recalled that i had a copy of the regulations for driving, what you need to know to pass the written test. mr. jenner. in what state? mrs. paine. in the state of texas, and i gave him that booklet. mr. jenner. did you have a discussion with him about your desire, your recommendation, that he qualify to drive an automobile in texas so it would assist him in connection with his job hunting. mrs. paine. probably. we certainly had conversation about it. mr. jenner. give us the subject of the conversation in terms of recommendations by you, or what did you say? mrs. paine. i again recommended, as i had in the spring, that he learn to drive. mr. jenner. what did he say? mrs. paine. he was interested in learning to drive. mr. jenner. did he say anything to you? mrs. paine. i would like to offer to the commission something we didn't get to last night. mr. jenner. i see. mrs. paine. which is a letter i wrote to my mother, which she just showed me recently, she just found it recently, which makes reference to the date i first gave him a lesson in driving. mr. jenner. that would be helpful to us. may i have the letter, please? mrs. paine. yes. now only a portion of it is applicable. mr. jenner. why don't we give it a number? mrs. paine. another portion is applicable in another connection, which i would like especially to bring up. mr. jenner. having that in mind, we will give that document for identification at the moment only, the number commission exhibit no. . i won't identify it beyond that for the moment because the witness will be using it to refresh her recollection. mrs. paine. i will read what applies here. mr. jenner. you are now reading from commission exhibit no. . mrs. paine. which is a letter dated october , in my hand, from me to my mother. mr. dulles. would you give your mother's name? mrs. paine. her name is mrs. carol hyde. representative boggs. where does she live? mrs. paine. in columbus, ohio. it was likely written to oberlin, where she was a student at that time. "if lee can just find work that will help so much. meantime i started giving him driving lessons last sunday (yesterday). if he can drive this will open up more job possibilities and more locations." mr. jenner. yes. mrs. paine. i want to comment too on the nature of this lesson. mr. jenner. the commission will be interested in that but you go ahead. mrs. paine. now? mr. jenner. go right ahead. mrs. paine. i knew that he had not even a learner's permit to drive. i wasn't interested in his driving on the street with my car until he had such. but on sunday the parking lot of a neighboring shopping center was empty, and i am quite certain that is where the driving lesson took place. mr. jenner. that is your best present recollection? mrs. paine. yes. now i recall this also, and it is significant. i offered him a lesson and intended to drive him to this area for him to practice. he, however, started the car. mr. jenner. he got in and started the car? mrs. paine. he got in and started the car so that i know he was able to do that and wanted to drive on the street to the parking lot. mr. jenner. he wanted to? mrs. paine. he wanted to. i said, "my father is an insurance man and he would never forgive me." mr. jenner. your father? mrs. paine. my father. and insisted that he get a learner's permit before he would drive on the street. mr. jenner. at that moment and at that time he acted, in any event in your presence, as though he himself thought---- mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. he would be capable of driving an automobile from your home to the parking area in which you were about to give him a lesson. that was your full impression, was it not? mrs. paine. yes. i should add that, as i am recalling, he did drive a portion of the way, he drove in fact, it is about three blocks, to the parking lot. i was embarrassed to just tell him "no, don't." but i did, in, effect, on the way there, when he was on the street, driving on the street in my car, when we got there i said, "now, i am going to drive back." i didn't want him to. mr. jenner. from your home to the parking lot? mrs. paine. the first time before we had any lesson at all. and at that time i made it clear i didn't want him to drive in the street. also, it became clear to me in that lesson that he was very unskilled in driving. we practiced a number of the things you need to know, to back up, to turn, right angle turn to come to a stop. mr. jenner. was this on the parking lot? mrs. paine. this was all on a parking lot. mr. dulles. did i understand you to say he drove three blocks, was that all the way to the parking lot? so he drove all the way to the parking lot? mrs. paine. perhaps a little longer. but a short distance, whatever it was, to the parking lot, yes. rather than stopping in midstreet and changing drivers. going to turn a right angle---- mr. dulles. how well did he do on that? mr. mccloy. that is what she is telling. mrs. paine. no; that is a separate answer. mr. jenner. she is talking about the parking lot. mrs. paine. i was very nervous while he was doing it and was not at all happy about his doing it. i would say he did modestly well; but no means skilled in coming to a stop and turning a square right angle at a corner. mr. jenner. was there much traffic? mrs. paine. no. but then too, i noticed when we got to the parking lot when he attempted to turn in a right angle he made the usual mistake of a beginner of turning too much and then having to correct it. he was not familiar with the delay of the steering wheel in relation to the wheels, actual wheels of the power---- mr. jenner. was it power---- mrs. paine. it was not power steering. but it has no clutch so that makes it a lot easier to drive. mr. jenner. it is an automatic transmission? mrs. paine. it is an automatic transmission. mr. jenner. describe your automobile, will you please? mrs. paine. it is a chevrolet station wagon, green, needing paint, which we bought secondhand. it is in my name. mr. mccloy. but automatic transmission? mrs. paine. automatic transmission; yes. then, in the later lessons, i think there were altogether three with lee---- mr. jenner. have you finished with this lesson on the sunday morning, was it? mrs. paine. no; it was a sunday afternoon and i drove back to the house. mr. jenner. how long did the lesson take on the parking lot? mrs. paine. oh, minutes, perhaps. i will say of him that he set for himself tasks; a good student in the sense that he planned now i am going to back up this way and i am going--one of the problems is to turn around and go the other way on the street. in other words---- mr. jenner. u-turn. mrs. paine. it is not a u-turn, no. it is a narrower one to head in back up and go the other way and he would set this problem for himself, how to do it, back up and do it, and set the problem of backing up, driving, going back, i mean. and set himself a course. i was doing this, too, but i was interested in the eagerness he had and his desire to achieve; desire to do this and do it well. in helping himself by setting up these course plans, you could almost say. mr. jenner. all right. would you refresh my recollection of the date this occurred? mrs. paine. my letter is dated the th. i say, "i taught him yesterday, sunday." mr. jenner. fourteenth of october? mrs. paine. fourteenth of october. so that would have been---- mr. jenner. that would have been october ? mrs. paine. thirteenth. senator cooper. may i ask a question here? mr. mccloy. senator cooper has a question. mr. jenner. yes. senator cooper. on the occasion when you drove with him, did you find it necessary to show him how to turn on the ignition? mrs. paine. no; i did not. senator cooper. how to take steps to start the car and put it in motion? mrs. paine. no, indeed; he had started it before i came out or else he wouldn't have been in the driver's seat because i didn't want him to drive on the street. so he had the car ready to go; backed out with a considerable bump. mr. jenner. he backed out of the driveway? mrs. paine. i am recalling this now, i think so. i recall that he then didn't attempt to go, i didn't let him, but at one point we practiced parking on the street in front of my house. mr. jenner. this was a subsequent occasion? mrs. paine. this was a subsequent occasion. but when the lesson was done he gradually let me turn the car into the driveway. this is harder and i was glad to do it and he was glad to be relieved of that requirement. representative boggs. mr. chairman, i don't want to interrupt this line of inquiry, but i have to go to a meeting at the speaker's office and i can't be back this afternoon, and i wonder if i might ask mrs. paine several questions? mr. mccloy. by all means. representative boggs. not particularly in this line. where did you first meet marina. i know you told us. mr. mccloy. she testified to that yesterday. representative boggs. tell me briefly. mrs. paine. at a party of people at the end of february . representative boggs. how long was it thereafter that she moved into your home for the first time? mrs. paine. she first came on the th of april. representative boggs. and she lived there for weeks? mrs. paine. yes. representative boggs. and her husband lived here--her husband was with her? mrs. paine. no. he had already gone on to new orleans. representative boggs. when did she return to your home? mrs. paine. she came with me from new orleans, leaving there the d of september and arriving in irving the th of september. representative boggs. and she lived with you in irving from the th of september until the d? mrs. paine. the morning of the d. representative boggs. of november? mrs. paine. she left the morning of the d, she left expecting to come back. representative boggs. during that period of time did lee oswald live there? mrs. paine. no. representative boggs. he visited there on weekends? mrs. paine. he visited there on weekends. representative boggs. how well did you know lee oswald? mrs. paine. insufficiently well. representative boggs. what do you mean by that? mrs. paine. well, i regret, of course, very deeply that i didn't perceive him as a violent man. representative boggs. you saw no evidence of violence in him at any time? mrs. paine. no, i didn't. he argued with his wife but he never struck her. i never heard from her of any violence from him. representative boggs. did he ever express any hostility toward anyone while he was talking with you? mrs. paine. not of a violent or---- representative boggs. did he ever express any political opinions to you? mrs. paine. yes, he called himself a marxist. he said that on the occasion after stevenson had been in town in relation to the united nations day. mr. jenner. adlai stevenson? mrs. paine. adlai stevenson, and lee had been to a meeting of the national indignation committee held another night that week, and he was at our home the following friday night and commented that he didn't like general walker. this is the only thing i heard from him on the subject. representative boggs. did he ever express any violence toward general walker? mrs. paine. no. representative boggs. did he ever discuss president kennedy with you? mrs. paine. he never mentioned kennedy at all. representative boggs. did you see the rifle that he had in the room in your home? mrs. paine. in the garage, no. representative boggs. in the garage, you never saw one? mrs. paine. i never saw that rifle at all until the police showed it to me in the station on the d of november. representative boggs. were you at home when the fbi interviewed marina and lee? mrs. paine. the fbi never interviewed marina and me; i was waiting to hear your question. representative boggs. at your home? mrs. paine. the fbi never interviewed marina and lee at my home. the fbi was there one afternoon and talked to marina through me; they never saw lee oswald in my home. i told them he would be there on a weekend. representative boggs. did you ever discuss politics with marina? mrs. paine. as close as we would come, i would say, would be what i have mentioned about madam nhu; she was interested in what the family would do. she also said to me that she thought khrushchev was a rather coarse, country person. she said that she admired mrs. kennedy a great deal, and liked, this is all before, liked president kennedy very much. mr. jenner. this was all before november ? mrs. paine. yes. representative boggs. were you aware of the fact that lee returned to your home the night before the assassination? mrs. paine. yes. representative boggs. were you curious about that in view of the fact that he seldom came except on weekends? mrs. paine. it was the first time he had come without asking permission to come. he came after he and his wife had quarreled, and marina and i said to one another, we took this to be as close as he could come to an apology, and an effort to make up. representative boggs. that was the reason you thought he had come? mrs. paine. but i didn't inquire of him. representative boggs. you did not know that the next morning when he left he had a rifle? mrs. paine. no. representative boggs. did you see him when he left that morning? mrs. paine. no, i didn't. representative boggs. have you been active in politics yourself? mrs. paine. no; i vote. and i am a member of the league of women voters, that is the extent of my activity. representative boggs. do you belong to any other political organizations? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. have you ever belonged? mrs. paine. no. representative boggs. are you, i don't know quite how to state this question, are you a practicing quaker? mrs. paine. i am. i am also a pacifist. representative boggs. you are a pacifist? mrs. paine. yes. representative boggs. you are not a marxist? mrs. paine. no; they don't go together, in fact. you can't believe violent overthrow and be a pacifist. mr. dulles. did you know norman thomas quite well? mrs. paine. when i was i went to a rally of norman thomas in new york city. that was my only contact. representative boggs. is your feeling towards marina, shall i say in the quaker spirit of friendship and hospitality, was that the main objective, plus the intellectual? mrs. paine. i was interested in the language. representative boggs. intellectual stimulation of the language. mrs. paine. yes. i found that while living with her, i could say that this day, at least added something to what i knew, what i--i learned a few more words. representative boggs. you never formed any opinion about lee oswald as a person? mrs. paine. i formed many, and i would like to make that a special area. representative boggs. would you just tell me just in a sentence or two, i know you could go into it in greater detail, but was your opinion favorable? was it unfavorable, or what? mrs. paine. i disliked him actively in the spring when i thought he just wanted to get rid of his wife and wasn't caring about her, wasn't concerned whether she would go to the doctor. i then found him much nicer, i thought, when i saw him next in new orleans in late september, and this would be a perfectly good time to admit the rest of the pertinent part of this letter to my mother written october , because it shows something that i think should be part of the public record, and i am one of the few people who can give it, that presents lee oswald as a human person, a person really rather ordinary, not an ogre that was out to leave his wife, and be harsh and hostile to all that he knew. but in this brief period during the times that he came out on weekends, i saw him as a person who cared for his wife and his child, tried to make himself helpful in my home, tried to make himself welcome although he really preferred to stay to himself. he wasn't much to take up a conversation. this says, "dear mom," this is from commission exhibit no. , "lee oswald is looking for work in dallas. did my last letter say so? probably not. he arrived a week and a half ago and has been looking for work since. it is a very depressing business for him, i am sure. he spent last weekend and the one before with us here and was a happy addition to our expanded family. he played with chris"--my -year-old, then --"watched football on the tv, planed down the doors that wouldn't close, they had shifted and generally added a needed masculine flavor"---- mr. jenner. wait a second. mrs. paine. "and generally added a needed masculine flavor. from a poor first impression i have come to like him. we saw the doctor at parkland hospital last friday and all seems very healthy" and this refers to marina. "it appears that charges will be geared to their ability to pay." representative boggs. were you---- mrs. paine. may i go on? representative boggs. yes; surely. finish. mrs. paine. this was an intervening section where he was the most human that i saw him, and, of course, it has been followed by my anger with him, and all the feeling that most of us have about his act. but it seems to me important, very important, to the record that we face the fact that this man was not only human but a rather ordinary one in many respects, and who appeared ordinary. if we think that this was a man such as we might never meet, a great aberration from the normal, someone who would stand out in a crowd as unusual, then we don't know this man, we have no means of recognizing such a person again in advance of a crime such as he committed. the important thing, i feel, and the only protection we have is to realize how human he was though he added to it this sudden and great violence beyond---- representative boggs. you have no doubt about the fact that he assassinated president kennedy? mrs. paine. i have no present doubt. representative boggs. do you have any reason to believe he was associated with anyone else in this act or it was part of a conspiracy? mrs. paine. i have no reason to believe he was associated with anyone. representative boggs. did you ever see him talking with anyone else, in conversation with anybody else or get mail at your home? mrs. paine. i never saw him talking with anyone else. he received all his mail from home, third class for the most part perhaps one letter from russia. representative boggs. did he have telephone calls at your home of a mysterious nature? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. excuse me, did he ever have a telephone call at your home mysterious or otherwise? mrs. paine. no; never. representative boggs. you then would be surprised if he were part of any group? mrs. paine. i would be very surprised. for one thing, i judged, i had to wonder whether this man was a spy or someone dangerous to our nation. he had been to the soviet union and he had come back and he didn't go as a tourist. he went by his own admission intending to become a soviet citizen and then came back. representative boggs. what about marina--go ahead and finish. mrs. paine. then the fbi came, as i thought they well might, interested in this man who had been to the soviet union, and i felt that if he had associations this would be very easy for them to know. i didn't see any, but would tend to point to the possibility of his being a spy or subversive. but i didn't see any such and i felt happy that they were charged with the responsibility of knowing about it. representative boggs. did you see any indication of any connection of marina with any group that might be considered unusual? mrs. paine. no; no one called her. representative boggs. did she have any letters? mrs. paine. she received a letter from a friend in the soviet union which she showed to me and mentioned to me. representative boggs. was this just a normal letter? mrs. paine. girl friend. representative boggs. what is your present relationship with marina? mrs. paine. i have seen her once since the assassination. that was a week ago monday. it was the first time since the morning of the d when she left my house, both of us expecting she would come back to it that evening. in the intervening period i wrote her a collection of letters trying to determine what her feelings were and whether it was suitable for me to write and see her. i am presently confused, as i was then, as to how to best be a friend to her. i don't know what is appropriate in this situation. by that i mean during the time i was writing the letters to her and not getting an answer when she was with mr. martin. representative boggs. was your conversation last monday friendly? mrs. paine. yes. representative boggs. thank you, mr. chairman, thank you, mrs. paine. mr. mccloy. might i ask one question? you said that lee had mentioned general walker and indicated that he didn't like general walker. can you elaborate on that a little bit, to what extent, how violent was he in his expression? mrs. paine. no; it wasn't violent at all. it was more of, oh, well, more not giving him much credit even, but it was done briefly, this was in passing, so my recollection is hazy. but certainly there was no strong expression. mr. mccloy. no vehemence about it? mrs. paine. absolutely not, i would have remembered that. and i recall that marina said nothing. mr. mccloy. yes. mr. dulles. you mentioned that lee did not receive any calls at your house. did he make any telephone calls? mrs. paine. i heard him call what he said was the "time." you know, he dialed, listened and hung up, and then he told us what time it was. that is all his social contact. mr. mccloy. this is only on one occasion that he spoke of general walker? mrs. paine. just that one in my hearing, apropos of a discussion that was already begun. mr. mccloy. we have rather interrupted the sequence of your questioning. mr. jenner. that is all right. representative boggs. there is one item i might bring out along the line you were inquiring about. you gave some consideration, did you not, mrs. paine, during this period, as to whether mr. oswald, lee harvey oswald, could or might have been a russian agent. mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and we discussed this yesterday, as i recall? mrs. paine. briefly. mr. jenner. and what conclusions did you come to on that score and why? mrs. paine. i thought that he was not very intelligent. i saw as far as i could see he had no particular contacts. he was not a person i would have hired for a job of any sort, no more than i would have let him borrow my car. mr. jenner. did you give consideration in that connection? did his level of intelligence affect your judgment as to whether the russian government would have hired him? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. how did it affect you? mrs. paine. i doubted they would have hired him. i kept my mind open on it to wonder. mr. jenner. and you had doubt why? mrs. paine. simply because he had gone to the soviet union and announced that he wanted to stay, and then came back, and i wasn't convinced that he liked america. mr. jenner. did your judgment of him, and as to his level of intelligence, affect your decision ultimately that the russian government might not or would not have hired him because he was not a man of capacity to serve in such a way for the russian government? mrs. paine. yes; that affected my judgment. mr. dulles. have you any idea as to his motivation in the act, in light of what you have said in the assassination? mrs. paine. it is conjecture, of course, but i feel he always felt himself to be a small person; and he was right. that he wanted to be greater, or noticed, and marina had said of him he thinks he is so big and fine, and he should take a more realistic view of himself and not be so conceited. (at this point, representative ford entered the hearing room.) mrs. paine. and i feel that he acted much more from the emotional pushings within him than from any rational set of ideas, and---- mr. dulles. emotional pushings toward aggrandizement you have in mind is what you said? mrs. paine. yes. mr. mccloy. when you testified earlier this morning, mrs. paine, about the dry sighting of the rifle, you know what dry sighting is, don't you? mrs. paine. i found out last night. mr. mccloy. you found that out last night? senator cooper. tell her to describe it then. mrs. paine. shall i try to describe it? see if i know? it involves holding the rifle and as if to fire and pulling the trigger, but without any ammunition in it. going through the motions and, therefore, wiggling it and having to resight it. representative ford. going through the motions? mrs. paine. of ejecting something. senator cooper. a dry run. mr. jenner. is that sufficient, senator? mrs. paine. do i understand it? mr. mccloy. that is a pretty good description, it is just as well as i can give. representative ford. you actually saw him doing this? mrs. paine. no, he showed me last night how it was done. mr. mccloy. we had testimony this morning whether he had an opportunity to dry sight the rifle in his new orleans house. mrs. paine. i was just discussing what would be visible in the front of his house. mr. jenner. we were having some testimony, representative ford, of lee harvey oswald's dry sighting of the rifle when he was in new orleans. representative ford. marina so testified when she was here. mr. mccloy. you don't purport to say it was impossible for him to do it without observation but it was difficult. mrs. paine. it was difficult. my then -year-old boy found a number of boys with trucks to play with right on that immediate driveway or alley as it is marked on the paper and small boys would have been very interested and they went right by there and marina complained that junie couldn't get her nap because there were so many children. mr. mccloy. he could have done it very early in the morning without observation? mrs. paine. yes. mr. dulles. have you any idea generally how lee oswald used his time, i mean when you weren't observing him when he wasn't at your house? did he talk, tell you how he used his time? did he use it on television? what i am trying to get at is--is there a great deal of time he had available to him that there is no way of knowing what he did. but did he talk about that, did he give you an idea of what he was, how he occupied himself, reading, television? mrs. paine. talking just about the time after october when he was---- mr. dulles. yes; let's take it in that period. mrs. paine. i knew he was occupied with looking for a job. mr. dulles. yes. mrs. paine. how much of the day this occupied him, of course, i didn't know. i didn't see him. then he got the job, and i judge that occupied him more fully. he spoke of one evening meeting he went to, this national indignation committee meeting. mr. dulles. what about other evenings? do you know anything about other evenings when he wasn't with you? mrs. paine. except for the one in which he accompanied my husband to a civil liberties union meeting. mr. dulles. all right. mr. mccloy. did you, at any stage of your life while you were, whether living with your husband or apart from him, did you ever contemplate inviting anyone to come and live with you in anything like the manner in which you did invite marina? mrs. paine. my mother completed her studies at oberlin college in february, and we talked---- mr. jenner. february ? mrs. paine. no; just now, february of and we talked about the possibility as long ago as last summer of , we talked about the possibility of her coming and staying for several months. i said i was tired of living alone. this is not exactly comparable, but it also is a search for a roommate. mr. mccloy. but apart from your mother, there was no one similarly situated to marina, whom you thought of inviting to live with you? mrs. paine. no one situated similarly that i knew either. mr. mccloy. no; you didn't invite anyone? mrs. paine. didn't make any other such invitation. mr. mccloy. anyone to live with you. mr. jenner. before returning to the automobile and somewhat along the tail end at least of representative boggs' inquiries of you, did you ever give any consideration, mrs. paine, to the possibility that lee harvey oswald might have been employed by some agency of the government of the united states? mrs. paine. i never gave that any consideration. mr. jenner. none whatsoever? mrs. paine. none whatsoever. mr. jenner. it never occurred to you at any time? mrs. paine. it never occurred to me at any time. mr. jenner. that is all on that. was the absence of its occurring to you based on your overall judgment of lee harvey oswald and his lack, as you say, of, not a highly intelligent man? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. there was some reason why you gave it no thought, is that correct? mrs. paine. that, and he was not in a position to know anything of use to either government. i am questioning myself. mr. jenner. would you please elaborate? mrs. paine. as regards he might be a soviet agent, what does this man know that would be of interest to anybody or what could you find out, and you judge he didn't know anything that the soviets might be interested in, and, as i say, i never gave it any thought of the possibility of his being employed by this government. mr. jenner. now, representative ford, mrs. paine had been relating to us her experiences with lee harvey oswald with respect to his ability to operate an automobile, and she has up to this moment revealed some things to us which we had not known of and it is something that is causing the staff considerable concern. this is his ability to drive which is a proper connection with his visit to mexico in some one or two instances and also his escape or his attempted escape and other elements. we interrupted the chronology to have mrs. paine state fully everything she knows on this particular subject. representative ford. it is important. mr. jenner. if we can recall just about where you were because i would like to have you pick it up just exactly where you were in this chronology. mrs. paine. i had about completed the full statement of what i saw of his driving. i will pick up by repeating when he turned a right angle corner he would turn too far and have to correct. i will complete now by describing my teaching him to park. mr. jenner. was this on that same sunday afternoon? mrs. paine. there were, i think, three altogether, but i am not certain. this is the only particular reference. mr. jenner. excuse me, but i think, mr. chairman, representative ford, mrs. paine has related to us something we had not known, that this sunday afternoon---- mrs. paine. october . mr. jenner. october , when she sought to instruct lee harvey oswald on the local parking lot--was it by a shopping center? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. that he had gotten into the car, in the driveway, with the key, and had turned on the motor of the car, had backed it up into the street. mrs. paine. and then proceeded to drive to the shopping center. mr. jenner. with mrs. paine. mrs. paine. while i complained. mr. jenner. mrs. paine complaining because she was concerned; she is the daughter of an insurance actuary. mrs. paine. in my complaint i simply said that i would drive back, and that i didn't want him to drive on the street, but i didn't insist that he stop at that moment. mr. jenner. thank you, mr. chairman. mrs. paine. i recall one other afternoon when he practiced just parking directly in front of our house, and when, as i say, after he had done this he wanted me to drive the car into the driveway, that being a little harder to do. mr. jenner. where did you keep your car ordinarily, in the driveway? mrs. paine. always in the driveway in front of our house; the garage itself is too full of many other things. mr. jenner. did you leave the key in the car? mrs. paine. i never leave the key in the car; i always lock it. mr. jenner. that was your habit with respect to the ignition key? mrs. paine. i always lock the car and leave the ignition key in my purse. mr. jenner. you never leave the ignition key around your home? mrs. paine. well, my purse was in the home. mr. jenner. so it was not in the open? mrs. paine. he had to go in the purse, never. just how he got the car started, i recall my shock that he had. but i must have laid out the key or something because i did not intend for him to start it. mr. jenner. you didn't give him the key on that occasion to go out and start the motor? mrs. paine. absolutely not. mr. jenner. but when you came out of the house he had already started the motor and backed the car into the street? mrs. paine. no, no; i let him back it out. mr. jenner. you did? mrs. paine. i was deciding what i was going to do. mr. dulles. you were in the car at that time? mrs. paine. yes, i had gotten in the car at that time. representative ford. and he was in the driver's seat? mrs. paine. yes. representative ford. yes. mr. jenner. was he in the driver's seat when you came out of the house? mrs. paine. that is my recollection. then, referring now to the practice of his parking. mr. jenner. excuse me, representative ford, the witness had also related to us, which we had not known, when she came to new orleans in the spring to bring marina from irving to new orleans, that lee harvey oswald told her that he had driven his uncle's car, one of the murrets, in new orleans on the street. go ahead. representative ford. perhaps i should say that i have been absent for a half hour or so attending a very important committee meeting, so i didn't get this story from the outset and i appreciate being brought up to date on it. mrs. paine. there were two occasions when we practiced parking, one in the larger parking lot just backing into, pretending there were cars there to back between, as in parallel parking, and another occasion directly in front of my house. on this second occasion directly in front of my house he finally learned how to do it. he had had a bad time, getting his wheels too cramped and not getting in, and getting his wheels straightened out, a beginner's mistakes. finally, i got into the car and told him when to start reversing the twist on his wheel and cramp, and he said, so soon. it was a surprise. it didn't feel to him it was time already to start coming out of the turn. and then he saw that it was when he then got into the parking place correctly, and quite soon got the feel of it but this was clearly his first experience doing it right, and then he practiced doing it right several times, and he learned quite well, i thought. (at this point, chief justice warren entered the hearing room.) representative ford. on these subsequent occasions did he ask you to help him or did he take the keys and do it on his own initiative? mrs. paine. no, he never took the keys. i offered to give him--give lee lessons on sunday afternoons and we managed to do it a few sunday afternoons, i think three altogether and there were a couple of weekends when we didn't get the lesson in, something intervened. representative ford. this was in october of ? mrs. paine. october and november. i think the last lesson was november , being the last sunday. mr. dulles. what progress did he make over that period? mrs. paine. considerable. mr. dulles. reasonable progress? mrs. paine. very reasonable progress. i thought he learned well, as i have said, both backing and to make a right-angle turn, and really began to understand the feeling of parking. representative ford. did he indicate to you when he might apply for a driver's license? mrs. paine. yes. oh, yes. thank you. it is a whole new section. mr. jenner. i was about to go into that. mr. dulles. there was some testimony on that point, i believe. mrs. paine. yes. representative ford. mr. frazier testified that oswald mentioned to him that he was going to or had, i am not sure which, and i was wondering whether he mentioned it to you? mr. dulles. got in line. mrs. paine. yes, on november , which was election day, saturday, in texas. mr. jenner. this was the weekend he was home? mrs. paine. this was the weekend that he was home, which was the last weekend he was home, don't call it home though. mr. jenner. i am sorry. it was the last weekend that he was at your home? mrs. paine. that is correct. mr. jenner. and he arrived the previous day, evening or late afternoon? mrs. paine. that is correct. mr. jenner. now starting with that friday afternoon, please relate the course of events? mrs. paine. well, i will say that we went saturday morning to a station in dallas where you can take the written test and eye test that permits you to get a learner's permit, but when we got there--that is all of us, children, lee, marina and myself, driving in my car to oak cliff--when we got there it was closed, being election day. i hadn't thought, realized that this would mean it would be closed. so we returned. the next weekend---- mr. jenner. excuse me, before you reach that. mrs. paine. right. mr. jenner. are you reasonably certain that he came home or came to irving the previous afternoon? mrs. paine. certainly. mr. jenner. perhaps to refresh your recollection, do you remember a weekend in which lee harvey oswald called from dallas and said to marina that he would not be in that friday afternoon because he was going to do some job hunting the next morning, and that he would come the next day? could it be that this was that weekend? mrs. paine. well, he had already had a job that weekend, didn't he? so he wouldn't have been job hunting. i recall he was there in the morning, saturday morning. mr. jenner. looking for another job? mrs. paine. oh, well, no. mr. jenner. you don't recall any discussion of his being dissatisfied with the job at the texas school book depository? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. and was undertaking to look for another job? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. there is no discussion? mrs. paine. there is one saturday that he came out later but that was still in october. it was the second weekend that he came out, altogether he came out on the weekend of the th, so he would have come out on october , saturday. it doesn't check with my recollection. mr. jenner. so just to make sure, it is your present recollection that you can recall no occasion when you were advised by marina or directly that lee harvey oswald called and said he would not be in on that particular friday but would come the next day? mrs. paine. i would be quite certain it was not that weekend. it is possible that this happened, i don't recall any discussion, nor did i have any idea that there had been any occasion when he had to look for a different job. mr. jenner. never any discussion on that subject? mrs. paine. never. just to complete the discussion of automobile driving, i will go on to the next weekend then when he did not come out to my house, but i---- representative ford. that would be the weekend of the th? mrs. paine. just prior to the assassination. the th i was having a birthday party for my little girl and said i couldn't possibly take him again to this place so he could take a test. but that he didn't need a car. this was news to him. he thought he needed a car for his initial test, learner's permit. i said he could go himself from dallas. mr. jenner. this was a conversation between you and lee oswald? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. how did it take place? mrs. paine. it must have been by phone. mr. jenner. did he call you or did you call him? mrs. paine. he called to the house nearly every night around : to talk to marina. and marina suggested to him that he wouldn't, shouldn't come out that weekend because i was having a birthday party and it had been a long weekend, the prior weekend. she didn't want him to wear out his welcome, and then i said to him he could still try to get---- mr. jenner. you did talk with him on the telephone? mrs. paine. that is my recollection. i am certain that i talked with him, that he was surprised that he didn't need a car. i had to tell him that he didn't need a car to take with him to take his test. mr. jenner. take his initial test? mrs. paine. take his test, and suggested that he go from dallas himself to take this test. then he called us saturday afternoon of the th to say he had been and tried to get his driver's permit but that he had arrived before closing time but still too late to get in because there was a long line ahead of him, the place having been closed both the previous saturday for election day and the following monday, the th, veterans day. there were a lot of people who wanted to get permits and he was advised that it wouldn't pay him to wait in line. he didn't have time to be tested. mr. jenner. could you help us fix, can you recall as closely as possible the day of the week, this is the weekend of the assassination, was it not? mrs. paine. the weekend before. mr. jenner. the weekend before, and this conversation you are now relating that you had with him in which he said that he had gone to the driver's license station, when did that conversation with you take place? mrs. paine. that conversation was with marina, and she told me about it. mr. jenner. when did she tell you about it? mrs. paine. he called her, it must have been saturday afternoon, soon after he had been, he went saturday morning and they closed at noon. mr. jenner. i see. this was the weekend he did not come out to irving? mrs. paine. this was the weekend he did not come out. mr. jenner. the weekend in which you had your birthday party for your son was it? mrs. paine. it was either that same afternoon or it was possibly sunday, i don't recall. it is important though. i wish i could recall when his call to her was. since it relates to the problem of when i dialed his number. mr. jenner. mr. chairman, i have marked as commission exhibit no. a form or document which purports to be a driver's permit or driver's license permit application by lee harvey oswald. it is a one-page form document on heavy board, or at least heavy paper. are you familiar sufficiently with the handwriting or handprinting of lee harvey oswald to be able to tell us whether the writing and handprinting on that document is or is not lee harvey oswald's? mrs. paine. i am not sufficiently familiar. i can simply compare it with the only other thing i have seen in his printing which is what he wrote down in my diary. mr. jenner. refreshing your recollection in that respect and looking at the exhibit, if you are able to do so, would you give us your opinion as to whether the exhibit is in the handwriting or handprinting of lee harvey oswald? mrs. paine. i think it very likely is. mr. jenner. in your short talk with lee harvey oswald on the subject of his having gone to the license application department in dallas, was anything said about his actually having filled out a driver's license or a learner's permit application? mrs. paine. no; nothing. mr. dulles. could we have the date of this document? mr. jenner. if it is dated. my recollection is it is not. mrs. paine. his birthday is on it only. picked up at his room on the date of the assassination. i guess it was picked up, i don't know. mr. jenner. could i review this with you a little bit? did lee harvey oswald on this occasion tell you in the course of what limited telephone conversation you had with him, that he had gone to the driver's license application bureau? mrs. paine. no; he told marina. mr. jenner. and did--he told marina and then marina in turn told you? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. how near the time of the telephone conversation? mrs. paine. she told me immediately. mr. jenner. did marina tell you? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. she just turned from the phone and told you at once? mrs. paine. that is correct. mr. jenner. this was spontaneous? mrs. paine. yes. it may have been while she was still on the phone, i don't recall, but it certainly was immediate. mr. jenner. mr. dulles, to answer your question the document is not dated. representative ford. i was just noticing in the upper right-hand corner on the one side he lists his occupation as photographer. mr. jenner. yes; this is so. mrs. paine. this is what he wanted to do, not what he was doing. mr. jenner. would you please relate to the commission what your impression of what his occupation was or occupation had been during the period of time that you had known him? mrs. paine. when i first met him he was working at jaggars-chiles-stovall. and had expressed himself as liking his work. i gathered that it was a kind of copying or making up of advertising layout, develop a photographic process. when we arrived at new orleans he pointed to a building where he was working. i saw no writing on the outside of the building. he said--no, first on the phone when he first called to say he had a job, he said he was doing work similar to what he had been doing, photographic type of work. representative ford. work in dallas? mrs. paine. he called to us in dallas from new orleans to say he was doing such work. mr. jenner. in new orleans? mrs. paine. subsequently, i have heard it is not so, but this is what he told marina and she told me over the phone. he said, and she told me immediately over the phone, that he was getting $ . an hour instead of $ . he had been getting, and then in new orleans he pointed to a building where he was working, somewhere along the river, near the french quarter, but a big large brick building with no particular designation on it. i don't know what sort of building it was, but he said it was the photo outfit where he was working then. when he was looking for a job he said, now, in october, early october, he came back to the dallas area and he was looking for a job, he said he was hopeful of getting similar work again, photographic layout, whatever it was. but that he was pleased to get any job that would produce an income. mr. dulles. for the commission's information, mr. jenner, is this not, that is exhibit no. , a form which lee oswald apparently took home, or filled out somewhere, either his home or at the office, but it was never sworn to and is not signed. mr. jenner. that is correct. mr. dulles. it is not a completed document. it has no date on it. mr. jenner. it is my information and there will be testimony and that is why i didn't go into the document, that it was found in his, among his effects in his room on beckley street. with permission, i might describe the document possibly a little more in detail in view of the interest and the question. at the top of the document under name there is hand printing on this form, first the form is entitled "application for texas driver's license." mrs. paine. may i interrupt? (whereupon, at : o'clock the president's commission recessed.) transcriber's notes: punctuation and spelling were made consistent when a predominant preference was found in this book; otherwise they were not changed. misspellings in quoted evidence not changed; misspellings that could be due to mispronunciations were not changed. some simple typographical errors were corrected. inconsistent hyphenation of compound words retained. ambiguous end-of-line hyphens retained. occasional uses of "mr." for "mrs." and of "mrs." for "mr." corrected. dubious repeated words, (e.g., "what took place by way of of conversation?") retained. several unbalanced quotation marks not remedied. occasional periods that should be question marks not changed. occasional periods that should be commas, and commas that should be periods, were changed only when they clearly had been misprinted (at the end of a paragraph or following a speaker's name in small-caps at the beginning of a line). some commas and semi-colons were printed so faintly that they appear to be periods or colons: some were found and corrected, but some almost certainly remain. the index and illustrated exhibits volumes of this series may not be available at project gutenberg. page : missing opening quotation mark: the fund for the russian-born widow had reached $ , ." page : "no, i have no recollection of anything that she said?" likely should end with a period. punctuation errors like this occur elsewhere and have not been changed. page : "ryw" may be a misprint for "rwy". page : "mr. ball. it is west of of your house?" repeats "of". page : 'mr. ball. that is about where you were, a "z" when he entered the door' should be 'at "z"'. page : "the chairman. mr. whaley, will you wait outside...." was printed as "mr. chairman...." and has been changed here for consistency, to make searches more reliable. page : added missing period between "m" and "?": and that is p.m.? page : "you have to go the meetings" may be missing "to" after "go". page : "she said the thought" probably should be "she said they thought". page : "in the early party of september" probably should be "part". page : "a bruise or contusion or ecchymosis" was misprinted as "eccmymosis"; spelled correctly earlier on the same page. page and elsewhere: "mr. specter" misprinted five times as "mr. spector"; corrected here. page : "its jacket appears to me to be intact" misprinted as "in tact"; corrected here. page : "exit would labeled b, exhibit " probably should be "exit wound". page : "mr. paine. that was in dallas?" should end with a period, not with a question mark. page : "does your interpretation" misprinted as "does you interpretation"; corrected here. www.history-matters.com. investigation of the assassination of president john f. kennedy hearings before the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy pursuant to executive order , an executive order creating a commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of the late president john f. kennedy and the subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and s.j. res. , th congress, a concurrent resolution conferring upon the commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas _volume_ viii united states government printing office washington, d.c. u.s. government printing office, washington: for sale in complete sets by the superintendent of documents, u.s. government printing office washington, d.c., president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy chief justice earl warren, _chairman_ senator richard b. russell senator john sherman cooper representative hale boggs representative gerald r. ford mr. allen w. dulles mr. john j. mccloy j. lee rankin, _general counsel_ _assistant counsel_ francis w. h. adams joseph a. ball david w. belin william t. coleman, jr. melvin aron eisenberg burt w. griffin leon d. hubert, jr. albert e. jenner, jr. wesley j. liebeler norman redlich w. david slawson arlen specter samuel a. stern howard p. willens[a] [a] mr. willens also acted as liaison between the commission and the department of justice. _staff members_ phillip barson edward a. conroy john hart ely alfred goldberg murray j. laulicht arthur marmor richard m. mosk john j. o'brien stuart pollak alfredda scobey charles n. shaffer, jr. biographical information on the commissioners and the staff can be found in the commission's _report_. preface the testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume viii: edward voebel, william e. wulf, bennierita smith, frederick s. o'sullivan, mildred sawyer, anne boudreaux, viola peterman, myrtle evans, julian evans, philip eugene vinson, and hiram conway, who were associated with lee harvey oswald in his youth; lillian murret, marilyn dorothea murret, charles murret, john m. murret, and edward john pic, jr., who were related to oswald; john carro, dr. renatus hartogs, and evelyn grace strickman siegel, who came into contact with oswald while he was in new york during his youth; nelson delgado, daniel patrick powers, john e. donovan, lt. col. a. g. folsom, jr., capt. george donabedian, james anthony botelho, donald peter camarata, peter francis connor, allen d. graf, john rene heindel, david christie murray, jr., paul edward murphy, henry j. roussel, jr., mack osborne, richard dennis call, and erwin donald lewis, who testified regarding oswald's service in the marine corps; martin isaacs and pauline virginia bates, who saw oswald when he returned from russia; and max e. clark, george a. bouhe, anna n. meller, elena a. hall, john raymond hall, mrs. frank h. ray (valentina); and mr. and mrs. igor vladimir voshinin, who became acquainted with oswald and/or his wife after their return to texas in . contents page preface v testimony of-- edward voebel william e. wulf bennierita smith frederick s. o'sullivan mildred sawyer anne boudreaux viola peterman myrtle evans julian evans philip eugene vinson hiram conway lillian murret marilyn dorothea murret charles murret john m. murret edward john pic, jr john carro renatus hartogs evelyn grace strickman siegel nelson delgado daniel patrick powers john e. donovan allison g. folsom, jr george donabedian james anthony botelho donald peter camarata peter francis connor allen d. graf john rene heindel david christie murray, jr paul edward murphy henry j. roussel, jr mack osborne richard dennis call erwin donald lewis martin isaacs pauline virginia bates max e. clark george a. bouhe anna n. meller elena a. hall john raymond hall mrs. frank h. ray (valentina) mrs. igor vladimir voshinin igor vladimir voshinin exhibits introduced page bates exhibit no. carro exhibit no. donabedian exhibit no. folsom exhibit no. hartogs exhibit no. isaacs exhibit no.: siegel exhibit no.: hearings before the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy testimony of edward voebel the testimony of edward voebel was taken on april , , at the old civil courts building, royal and conti streets, new orleans, la., by mr. albert e. jenner, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. edward voebel, canal street, new orleans, la., after first being duly sworn, testified as follows: mr. jenner. you are edward voebel? mr. voebel. that's right. mr. jenner. and you live at canal street in new orleans? mr. voebel. yes, sir. mr. jenner. where is your place of business? mr. voebel. at the same place. mr. jenner. they are both at the same place, canal street? mr. voebel. that's right. mr. jenner. and that's here in new orleans? mr. voebel. yes. mr. jenner. and you are associated in business, i believe, with your mother and father, are you not? mr. voebel. mother, uncle, and grandmother. mr. jenner. your mother, your uncle, and your grandmother? mr. voebel. that's right. mr. jenner. and what is your business? mr. voebel. quality florist co. mr. jenner. what is your age, mr. voebel? mr. voebel. i am . mr. jenner. you received a letter from mr. rankin, general counsel of the warren commission, did you not? mr. voebel. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and enclosed with the letter were a copy of senate joint resolution , authorizing the creation of the commission to investigate the assassination of president john fitzgerald kennedy; is that right? mr. voebel. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and executive order no. , of president lyndon b. johnson appointing that commission and fixing its powers and duties; is that right? mr. voebel. yes. mr. jenner. and a copy of the rules and regulations under which we take testimony before the commission and also by way of deposition, such as this one. you received that also? mr. voebel. yes, sir. mr. jenner. i take it you gather from those documents that the commission is enjoined to investigate all of the facts and circumstances surrounding and bearing upon the assassination of the late president john fitzgerald kennedy. mr. voebel. yes. mr. jenner. i am albert e. jenner. jr., member of the legal staff of the commission, and i am here with my associate, mr. liebeler, taking depositions here in new orleans, which is the birthplace of lee harvey oswald, and making inquiries of those who in the ordinary course of their lives had some contact with this man, and also other aspects of the assassination. now, it is our understanding that you did have some contact with him; is that right? mr. voebel. yes. mr. jenner. i would like to ask you a few questions about that. mr. voebel. yes, sir. mr. jenner. when did you first become acquainted with lee harvey oswald, and under which circumstances? just tell me generally how that came about. mr. voebel. well, it was at school. mr. jenner. is that beauregard junior high school? mr. voebel. yes, sir. mr. jenner. do you know what year that was? mr. voebel. let's see. i will have to figure that out. that was about or . mr. jenner. how did you become aware of him? mr. voebel. going to school there. do you want me to tell you the whole story? mr. jenner. well, let's get in a few preliminary remarks first. i would like to have a little background in the record before we go into that. mr. voebel. yes, sir. i don't exactly remember when i first saw him, because i might have seen him going to school and back without knowing who it was, but i really became acquainted with him when he had this fight with this boy, and we took him back into the boy's restroom and tried to patch him up a bit. mr. jenner. were there individuals involved in this fight that you remember? mr. voebel. yes. mr. jenner. tell me the circumstances of that, please. mr. voebel. well, the day before, maybe a couple of days before, lee had a fight with a couple of boys. mr. jenner. do you know their names? mr. voebel. they were the neumeyer boys, john and mike. mr. jenner. john and mike? mr. voebel. yes, sir. mr. jenner. they were classmates? mr. voebel. yes. well, i think one of them was in the same grade as lee. one was older than the other one. the younger one was maybe a grade or two below lee, and lee was in a fight with john, the older one. mr. jenner. let's see if i have that straight now. lee was in a fight with the elder of two neumeyer brothers; is that right? mr. voebel. right. he was in a fight with john neumeyer. the fight, i think started on the school ground, and it sort of wandered down the street in the direction naturally in which i was going. mr. jenner. was it a protracted fight? mr. voebel. protracted? mr. jenner. yes; did it keep going on? mr. voebel. yes, it kept going on, across lawns and sidewalks, and people would run them off, and they would only run to the next place, and it continued that way from block to block, and as people would run them off of one block, they would go on to the next. mr. jenner. that was fisticuffs; is that right? mr. voebel. right. mr. jenner. were they about the same age? mr. voebel. oswald and john? mr. jenner. yes. mr. voebel. i don't know; i guess so. mr. jenner. how about size? mr. voebel. i think john was a little smaller, a little shorter than lee. mr. jenner. do you know what caused the fight? mr. voebel. no; i don't. i don't remember that. mr. jenner. but you followed this fight from place to place, did you not? mr. voebel. yes. mr. jenner. why, were you curious? mr. voebel. yes; and well, it was also on my way home, going that way. the fight traveled my route home. mr. jenner. all right, what happened as this fight progressed down the street? mr. voebel. well, i think oswald was getting the best of john, and the little brother sticking by his brother, stepped in too, and then it was two against one, so with that oswald just seemed to give one good punch to the little brother's jaw, and his mouth started bleeding. mr. jenner. whose mouth? mr. voebel. mike neumeyer. mr. jenner. the little boy? mr. voebel. yes, sir. mike's mouth started bleeding, and when that happened, the whole sympathy of the crowd turned against oswald for some reason, which i didn't understand, because it was two against one, and oswald had a right to defend himself. in a way, i felt that this boy got what he deserved, and in fact, later on i found out that this boy that got his mouth cut had been in the habit of biting his lip. oswald might have hit him on the shoulder or something, and the boy might have bit his lip, and it might have looked like oswald hit him in the mouth, but anyway, somebody else came out and ran everybody off then, and the whole sympathy of the crowd was against lee at that time because he had punched little mike in the mouth and made his mouth bleed. i don't remember anything that happened after that, but i think i just went on home and everybody went their way, and then the next day or a couple of days later we were coming out of school in the evening, and oswald, i think, was a little in front of me and i was a couple of paces behind him, and i was talking with some other people, and i didn't actually see what happened because it all happened so quick. some big guy, probably from a high school--he looked like a tremendous football player--punched lee right square in the mouth, and without him really knowing or seeing really who did it. i don't know who he was, and he ran off. that's when we ran after lee to see if we could help him. mr. jenner. he just swung one lick and ran? mr. voebel. yes; that's what they call passing the post. he passed the post on him. mr. jenner. passed the post, what's that? mr. voebel. that's when somebody walks up to you and punches you. that's what's called punching the post, and someone passed the post on lee at that time. mr. jenner. you think that might have happened because of the squabble he had with the two neumeyer boys a day or two before? mr. voebel. yes; i think that was what brought it all about. i think this was sort of a revenge thing on the part of the neumeyer boys, so that's when i felt sympathy toward lee for something like this happening, and a couple of other boys and i--i don't remember who they were, but they brought him back in the restroom and tried to fix him up, and that's when our friendship, or semi-friendship, you might say, began. we weren't really buddy-buddy, but it was just a friendship, i would say. mr. jenner. but you do remember that you attempted to help him when he was struck in the mouth on that occasion; is that right? mr. voebel. yes; i think he even lost a tooth from that. i think he was cut on the lip, and a tooth was knocked out. mr. jenner. well, you had a mild friendship with him from that point on, would you say? mr. voebel. right. mr. jenner. tell me about that. did you get together occasionally and share interests, and what were his interests? mr. voebel. i don't remember exactly what his interests were. i never even discussed that, that i know of. i was taking music uptown--i told the investigator that i was taking clarinet lessons at the time, but actually i was taking piano lessons, so that part was a mistake, but i did play both of them, but at that time i was taking piano lessons, and sometimes i would stop off at lee's, and we would play darts and pool. lee's the one who taught me to play pool. in fact, he invited me to come and play pool with him. he lived over the top of the pool hall. mr. jenner. and did you accept his invitation? mr. voebel. yes; that's when we played darts. mr. jenner. you played darts and you shot pool also; is that right? mr. voebel. yes, sir. mr. jenner. where was that? mr. voebel. on exchange alley. mr. jenner. exchange alley? mr. voebel. yes; or exchange place, whatever you call it. mr. jenner. did you find him adept in playing pool? mr. voebel. you see, i had never played before and he showed me the fundamentals of the game, and after a couple of games i started beating him, and he would say, "beginner's luck," so i don't think he was that good, because i am really not that good at playing pool. i mean, i don't think he was a great pool player. mr. jenner. but he showed an interest in the game and some adaption to the game at the time he was teaching you; is that right? mr. voebel. yes; he liked it. mr. jenner. he liked to play pool? mr. voebel. yes; he seemed to like it. mr. jenner. did you ever meet his mother? mr. voebel. i think i met her one time, and for some reason i had a picture in my mind which was different from when i saw her in the paper after all of this happened. i didn't recognize her. she was a lot thinner, and her hair wasn't as gray, as i recall it, when i met her. of course, this was about years ago, but i can remember she had a black dress on, and she was sitting down smoking a cigarette; now, maybe she wasn't smoking, but this is a picture that comes to my mind as i recall that. mr. jenner. do you smoke? mr. voebel. no. mr. jenner. did lee smoke? mr. voebel. no. mr. jenner. do you drink? mr. voebel. well, i don't, really. mr. jenner. do you drink occasionally? mr. voebel. if it's in a party, or to be sociable i do, but i am not a drinker. mr. jenner. how about lee, was he a drinker? mr. voebel. well, you see, we were only at the age of about fourteen or fifteen, and smoking and drinking just wasn't of interest to a lot of people our age at that time. kids did it, but i had no reason for drinking at the time, because i mean, i was just years old, and i think the legal age here is , so that didn't actually enter my mind. there was another thing why i sort of formed a friendship with lee, and that was that most of the people that went to our school used to smoke, which i thought was a bum type nature, and lee wasn't one of those, so he fitted in with my character, so to speak, a little bit more than the others. mr. jenner. all right; those are the things i am interested in, what you think of lee's habits and personality and so forth, from the time you knew him, and don't you worry about whether it's important or not. that's my problem. mr. voebel. right. mr. jenner. i'm trying to get a picture of this boy as he became a man, and that includes what he was doing and thinking when he was or years old, and as far as you are concerned, during the time you were sociable with him and particularly what your reaction to him was. people change, of course. mr. voebel. right. now, i want to make one thing clear. i liked lee. i felt that we had a lot in common at that time. now, if i met lee oswald, say a year ago, i am not saying that i would still like him, but the things i remember about lee when we were going to school together caused me to have this sort of friendship for him, and i think in a way i understood him better than most of the other kids. he had the sort of personality that i could like. he was the type of boy that i could like, and if he had not changed at all, i probably still would have the same feeling for lee oswald, at least more so than for the neumeyer brothers. of course, as you say, people do change, and i don't know how i would have felt about lee as we both grew older. i lost contact with lee years ago. mr. jenner. would you describe the neumeyer brothers as roustabouts? mr. voebel. yes; they were ruffians, real punk-type guys. at least, that was my impression of them. mr. jenner. well, that's what i want, your impression. would you say there were other boys of the type of the neumeyer brothers at beauregard school while you were attending there? mr. voebel. oh, yes; i would say most of them seemed to be troublemakers. in fact, it was almost impossible to go to school at that time without brushing against somebody or getting involved in a fight sooner or later. you take me, i am not a fighter, but i had to fight at that school. mr. jenner. you did? mr. voebel. yes; it was almost impossible to get along with the type of characters that were going to that school at that time. mr. jenner. so this particular incident, when lee had this fight, that in your opinion is no indication that the boy was a rabble rouser or inclined to get into fights; is that right? your impression was just the opposite of that; isn't that true? mr. voebel. well, no; i will say this; i would back down from a fight a lot quicker that lee would. now, he wouldn't start any fights, but if you wanted to start one with him, he was going to make sure that he ended it, or you were going to really have one, because he wasn't going to take anything from anybody. i mean, people could call me names and i might just brush that off, but not lee. you couldn't do that with lee. mr. jenner. would you say he was unusually quick to take offense? mr. voebel. well, i didn't know him to be that way. he could have been, now, but i wouldn't go that strong with it. all i'm saying is that if you picked on lee, you had a fight on your hands. he wouldn't go out of his way to avoid it. mr. jenner. all i'm asking you is what your impression was, and i don't want you to speculate as to what might have been. do you think he was a person to take offense at anything on the spur of the minute, so to speak? mr. voebel. well, like i said, he didn't take anything from anybody. mr. jenner. was this a coeducational school? mr. voebel. right. mr. jenner. high school or junior high? mr. voebel. junior high school, but it just had been changed. it was a grammar school, and it had just been changed to a junior high, and when it changed to a junior high, it seemed to draw a lot of bad characters. as time went on, it might have slacked off; i don't know how it is now, but living right near there and seeing the kids come home now very often, i think they have gotten worse, because now they have got gang wars and things like that. mr. jenner. you still live close to the school? mr. voebel. yes; and i know they have gang wars in this cemetery near there, and there was this guy that i believe was pushing narcotics, pushing dope. i tried working with the police department for a long time to get this guy out there. i believe he was pushing dope, but it was hard to pin him down. i worked almost months with the narcotics people, but he was too slick for us. he just disappeared. he was there for about a year, and then he disappeared. mr. jenner. are you familiar with the warren easton school? mr. voebel. yes, sir. mr. jenner. did you go to warren easton? mr. voebel. no; i went to fortier. mr. jenner. warren easton is a senior high school; right? mr. jenner. yes, sir. mr. jenner. is it somewhere close to beauregard? mr. voebel. oh, about or blocks away, i would say. mr. jenner. is it normal for students going to beauregard junior high school to then enroll in warren easton? mr. voebel. yes; that's normally right. mr. jenner. that's the regular progression? mr. voebel. right. mr. jenner. did you know that lee attended warren easton? mr. voebel. no; to tell the truth, i lost complete contact with him after i left beauregard. i might have seen him once or twice during that summer. mr. jenner. were you a grade up on him, or were you in the same grade, or what? mr. voebel. i don't remember. let's see--no; i think we were in the same grade, i think we were. mr. jenner. when you left beauregard, where did you go to high school? mr. voebel. i went to fortier. mr. jenner. any reason? mr. voebel. well, fortier has an rotc system. mr. jenner. that's why you went over there? mr. voebel. to get in the rotc; yes, sir. mr. jenner. are you a service man? mr. voebel. yes. mr. jenner. in what branch? mr. voebel. army. mr. jenner. did some other boys pal around with you and lee? mr. voebel. not that i can remember. you see, the only relationship we had after this fight i told you about, was when i would be downtown and stop in, and we would play pool or play darts, but i don't remember participating in any events with lee at school. for example, i don't remember having played ball or anything with lee, so probably our gym periods were different. i used to go straight home after school, and i think he did too, so there was no buddying around on either of our parts at school. i had a lot of friends and many acquaintances, but i don't think lee did. mr. jenner. you don't think lee did? mr. voebel. no, sir. mr. jenner. do you have a recollection or conception of any ridicule accorded him when he first turned up at beauregard? mr. voebel. yes; i think there was something. always when someone comes in new, they are supposed to belong to something like a gang or clique, and if you didn't, then you had to prove yourself. it's just like the old story they tell about the irish channel, about how anybody new moving in there had to prove himself or fight the leader in the community before they accepted him. mr. jenner. tell me some more about the irish channel, and how that compares to the beauregard situation when you were attending there. mr. voebel. well, it may be different now, but i know in my day when you went to beauregard, if you didn't belong to a gang or something, you had to prove yourself. you had to fight somebody. now, the irish channel is a part of town around magazine street, oh, maybe the block, generally around magazine and louisiana avenue, i think, in that section, and it was pretty well known that any time a stranger or someone new moved in the neighborhood, he had to face something like that. the whole neighborhood had gangs, and unless he joined one of them someone would have to fight something, and it was the same at beauregard. of course, it was all, you know, children and adolescent things. mr. jenner. and it was your impression that lee had that social force, whatever it was; is that right? mr. voebel. yes, sir; he met it head on. mr. jenner. he was inclined to meet it head on and not back up? mr. voebel. right. he wouldn't take anything. i used to try to avoid it as much as possible, until you just couldn't avoid it any more. i think a few of the boys at the time got a wrong impression of me. they thought i was just a fat kid, and i wouldn't do anything, and i used to take a little pushing around, and another thing, they would always be in gangs. now, if you got them alone, you could whip them, but they would hang around in bunches. in fact, i had an incident like that happen to me over at that school where this boy marked me out. he said he didn't like the way i looked, so he just kept talking and trying to force me into an incident, and finally he got it. i beat the dickens out of him, and it was after school, almost the same way this happened to lee. word got around at the school what i had done, and a whole gang of people met me after school one day, but i was lucky enough to talk myself out of it. now, when they passed the post on lee, he was inclined to fight back, but i had sense enough to know that you can't fight a whole gang, so i talked myself out of it. this gang came over to my house and piled out of automobiles and started joshing and using all kinds of vulgar language to try to get me to come out, and my uncle ran them off, and after that i didn't have any more trouble. you just had to prove yourself to gain the respect of those gangs. mr. jenner. they didn't attack you any more? mr. voebel. no. mr. jenner. would you say that the course of conduct of lee oswald was normal, having in mind the problems he was facing? mr. voebel. yes, except that he didn't make friends. mr. jenner. he did not? mr. voebel. no; he was not inclined to make friends. mr. jenner. but you don't know why he was so disinclined? mr. voebel. well, let's just put it this way; he didn't make friends. it was just that people and things just didn't interest him generally. he was just living in his own world, let's say. mr. jenner. but you did have some measure of common interest that you told me about? mr. voebel. i guess you are trying to get at the gun. is that what you have in mind? mr. jenner. well, i am not going to say what i'm trying to get at. mr. voebel. well, i know lee seemed to have an interest in guns. mr. jenner. and these were regular weapons, not toys? mr. voebel. that's right, military weapons. my uncle started a collection while he was in the service, and he brought back a few foreign military weapons. mr. jenner. was that world war i? mr. voebel. world war ii. mr. jenner. your uncle? mr. voebel. that's right, my uncle. mr. jenner. and you also would say that you had an interest in guns; is that right? mr. voebel. yes, i was interested in guns. in fact, we had guns around the house all the time. we were always interested in them, my uncle and i, and i learned to shoot a pistol when i was about, oh, years old, you see. mr. jenner. did lee share your enthusiasm for collecting weapons? mr. voebel. oh, no; i don't think i even told lee about how i felt about that. i don't think lee was interested in weapons for the same reason i was. i mean, i like weapons because i like mechanics. i like anything you can take apart and especially weapons, and i've always liked reading about the history of different guns, and i have often thought about what could have happened in a situation had they had this weapon or that weapon, you know more modern weapons than the ones they did have. i don't think lee was interested in the history of any weapons. for example, he wanted a pistol, but it just seemed like he wanted the pistol just to have one, not for any purposes of collecting them or anything. i also like sport cars. you've heard of people who like mechanics and cars. i wanted them for a purpose, whereas lee would be inclined to want something just to have it, i think. mr. jenner. did you have an interest in automobiles at that time? mr. voebel. yes, sir; i did. mr. jenner. did lee? mr. voebel. no. mr. jenner. you couldn't interest him in that? mr. voebel. no; i was interested in a lot of things. i had taken music, and i liked automobiles, and i collected weapons, just a lot of things, and lee didn't share any of that with me, because his interests didn't seem to run that way. mr. jenner. was he interested in music? mr. voebel. no; he wasn't. mr. jenner. do you know whether he knew how to operate an automobile? mr. voebel. i never had seen him drive at all. mr. jenner. did you ever discuss the subject with him? mr. voebel. not that i can remember. mr. jenner. what was your impression as to whether he could drive or couldn't drive an automobile? mr. voebel. i don't think he could drive. the only thing i think he was interested in besides reading, that i could gather, was one day he went fishing and he caught a whole bunch of little fish in city park. they were no bigger than that. mr. jenner. almost minnows? mr. voebel. right, and i think he liked to fish. mr. jenner. did he talk about fishing? mr. voebel. well, not as fishermen do, but i could tell that he enjoyed fishing, at least that day. i do know that he did go fishing, although i don't know how often, but i know he bought a whole rig and went fishing that day. mr. jenner. what did you observe as to his financial circumstances? mr. voebel. financial circumstances? mr. jenner. yes; as to his home and his dress, and his means as to his finances. mr. voebel. poor. mr. jenner. poor? mr. voebel. yes. mr. jenner. and you were reasonably well fixed; isn't that right? mr. voebel. yes. mr. jenner. and you did notice by contrast that he was a poor boy? mr. voebel. right. mr. jenner. that made no difference to you? mr. voebel. not a bit. that's another thing about me. it doesn't matter whether a friend of mine has money or not. some of my best friends are very poor, and i also have rich friends, but that doesn't matter to me. it's just the individual person. i don't belong to any cliques. i don't fraternize with any type of group that bands together because of some class reason or anything like that. i like people because of maybe an interest that is similar to mine, someone that i have a more or less common understanding with on different subjects that i am interested in. i don't go for these people that belong to clubs or groups like that, because i don't have the time. mr. jenner. are you married? mr. voebel. no. mr. jenner. when did you get out of the service? mr. voebel. two years ago. i just served months. mr. jenner. that's a sort of special program? mr. voebel. yes; months in the reserves. mr. jenner. then you have to serve weeks each year; is that right? mr. voebel. right. this year we are going to meet at the brooklyn army terminal and also take in the world's fair? mr. jenner. tell me more about your association with oswald. you say you played darts with him and you would go to the poolroom beneath the apartment where he lived and shoot pool with him? mr. voebel. yes. mr. jenner. did you boys hang around the poolroom after you would shoot pool? mr. voebel. no; nothing like that. we would go down and play two or three games, and then i had to go because it would be getting late in the day. you see, that would be after my music lesson, so after a couple of games i would leave and go on home. we didn't hang around at all. for one thing, i had so many things to do. i had my music lessons and my schoolwork, and with my folks in business, i had to help them out in the shop, so my time was pretty scarce at that time. mr. jenner. did lee ever own a weapon? mr. voebel. a real one? mr. jenner. yes. mr. voebel. not that i know of. mr. jenner. now, you emphasized that word "real." is there something there that you want to tell me about? mr. voebel. well, he did own a plastic model of a . . mr. jenner. a plastic model? mr. voebel. yes; and he showed that to me. i guess you want to know now about his plan for this robbery. actually i wasn't too much impressed with the whole idea at first, because i had heard so much talk about stealing and robbing and things like that, that it really didn't bother me until he did shock me one day when he came up with a whole plan and everything that he needed for a burglary, you see. mr. jenner. tell me about that. mr. voebel. well, we were over at easton. mr. jenner. easton high school? mr. voebel. yes; we were over there for some program that they were putting on for junior-high people, acquainting them with the high school. mr. jenner. was that right at the time you were graduating from beauregard? mr. voebel. right. mr. jenner. and he was preparing to graduate at the same time from beauregard; right? mr. voebel. i think so. mr. jenner. wasn't there a period when he dropped out of beauregard altogether? mr. voebel. i don't remember. mr. jenner. or was that at easton? mr. voebel. i don't remember. mr. jenner. you don't remember that? mr. voebel. no. mr. jenner. you don't remember him being out of school entirely for about a year? mr. voebel. no; that might have been over at easton. it could have been over there, but i don't remember that at all. mr. jenner. all right, go on with your story. mr. voebel. well, this program we had, that was a band concert, and we were listening to the band and i think this was when he revealed the plan for stealing this pistol from a place on rampart street. mr. jenner. did he seek to enlist you in that plan? mr. voebel. no; not really, he just told me about it. he had observed a pistol in this window, this show window, on rampart street, and his plan was to steal it. mr. jenner. it wasn't one of these collector's items? mr. voebel. no; i don't think so. i can't remember the pistol, to tell you the truth, but i don't think it was a collector's piece. it was just a weapon. it might have been a smith & wesson. i think it was an automatic, but i don't remember. i really didn't pay too much attention to it. mr. jenner. you actually saw the pistol in the window? mr. voebel. yes. to get back to my story, it was maybe the following week that i was up at his house, and he came out with a glasscutter and a box with this plastic pistol in it, and i think he had a plan as to how he was going to try to get in there and get this pistol. mr. jenner. you mean in the rampart street store? mr. voebel. yes. now, i don't remember if he was planning to use this plastic pistol in the robbery or not, or just to take it and cut the glass and break it out, and get the pistol that way. i don't think he was really sure even then how he wanted to do it, but finally he told me his complete plans and how he was going to cut the glass out of the window and everything, and i didn't know what to tell him, so he said, "why don't you come over and look at this pistol and tell me what kind it is, and what you think of my plan?" so i said all right, and so we walked over there to this store and we looked at this pistol in the window, and like i said, i don't remember what kind it was. he said, "well, what do you think?" and i didn't know what to tell him. i didn't know how to talk him out of it, so then i happened to notice this band around the window, a metal tape that they use for burglar alarms, and i got to working on that idea in the hope that i could talk him out of trying it, and i told him, i said, "well, i don't think that's a good idea, because if you cut that window, it might crack that tape, and the burglar alarm will go off," and i don't think he believed me, but i told him, "let's go in the store and look at it from the inside," and so i convinced him that it would be too dangerous to try it, that this was a burglar alarm that would go off, and so anyway, he finally gave up the idea. there had been some jewel robberies on canal street and the way they were doing it was cutting a hole in the window, such as lee planned to do. i remember reading about that, but anyway, he finally changed his mind about trying to rob the store, and that was the end of that. mr. jenner. what kind of glasscutter was this that he showed you? mr. voebel. oh, it was just a real cheap one. mr. jenner. this was a plate glass window, though, you say? mr. voebel. yes. mr. jenner. it never occurred to you that he couldn't cut a plate glass window with a glass cutter? mr. voebel. not at that time; no. i didn't know anything about the cutting of glass anyway. i just thought he could do it, you know. mr. jenner. did you hear any more about that event afterwards? mr. voebel. no; i think it just played out. i don't think he really wanted to go through with it, to tell you the truth. i think he was really looking for a way out. it was just some fantastic thing he got in his mind, and actually it never did amount to anything. i mean, it seemed to me like he just wanted me to discourage him to the point where he could back out of the whole thing, and he never went through with it, and i never heard anymore about it after that. now that i look back on it, i think maybe he was just thinking along the lines that if he went through with it, that he would look big among the guys, you know, but i am just speculating on that, of course. mr. jenner. did you ever have any discussions with lee about politics? mr. voebel. no. mr. jenner. i mean the politics in the pure sense. mr. voebel. no; we didn't discuss that. we were too young, i guess, to be interested too much in politics at that time. i have read things about lee having developed ideas as to marxism and communism way back when he was a child, but i believe that's a lot of baloney. mr. jenner. you and he never discussed anything like that, then? mr. voebel. no; i am sure he had no interest in those things at that time, at least that i know of. of course, we took courses like political science and courses like that, and he might have done a lot of reading and studying along that line at that time, but i don't even know that. i know we never discussed anything like that. mr. jenner. now at this time, his two brothers, they were in the service, i believe; is that right? mr. voebel. well, i don't know. he never did say. i know he did have two brothers, but i didn't know what they were doing. mr. jenner. they weren't around for any of this playing darts or playing pool, or anything else that you and lee participated in, were they? mr. voebel. no, i never saw them. i never met them. mr. jenner. did you form an opinion as to the relationship between lee and his mother? mr. voebel. well, i know it wasn't the type of relationship that you usually see between a mother and her children. i'm just giving you my opinion on that, now. i know that they weren't very close, as far as lee was concerned, but of course she was always around, and i think she tried to take good care of him, but it was hard with a person like lee to know what he was thinking or doing all the time. i think lee loved his mother and was concerned about her, but there was something lacking there that you usually see between a mother and her children, as far as i am concerned, but with the type man lee was, i guess a lot of that is understandable. you just couldn't get through to him. he just wasn't communicative. he just didn't talk too much about anything. mr. jenner. was he curt as to his mother, that you observed? i mean, did he cut her off short in any way? mr. voebel. well, i noticed the normal resentment going on in him at that time, but i was the same way, and i remember seeing that in other kids at that time. your mother might be telling you things that are normally good for you, but i think every child resents discipline to a certain extent. i know i did at that time, but as to lee and his mother, i don't think there was anything violent between them, if you know what i mean but at the same time he wasn't what you would call a mamma's boy. mr. jenner. what do you mean by that expression, "mamma's boy"? mr. voebel. well, that's just an expression that was used at that time. mr. jenner. was it used with respect to lee and his mother? mr. voebel. no; never. he was no mamma's boy. mr. jenner. well, did you have the impression that his mother was often indulgent toward him? mr. voebel. in one way; yes. mr. jenner. in which way was that? mr. voebel. well, if he wanted something, no matter what it was, she would always seem willing to go out of her way to get it for him. even if she couldn't afford it, she would try to get it for him. of course, if there was something he wanted and she didn't think it was good for him, i don't know about that; i don't have any recollection of anything like that, but i know she did everything she could for lee, and maybe he didn't always show his appreciation the way other kids would, but that's just the way he was. mr. jenner. what sort of impression did you have of lee's attitude as to his lot in life, in other words, whether he felt that since his father died so young, and he had, i mean lee, had received a bad deal in life. what was his attitude about that, if any? mr. voebel. well, i think he was impressed with the fact that his father had died at a young age, and that he never got to know his father. i think that left a mark on him, but i don't think that's unusual in itself. i think there were times when you could see he felt bad because he didn't have a father, but he never actually talked about that. lee didn't talk too much, even when we were at beauregard together. mr. jenner. did lee ever come over to your house? mr. voebel. i don't think so; no; he never did. now, i can't say for sure, but i don't think he did. mr. jenner. did you boys ever have any common athletic interest? mr. voebel. not that i know of. mr. jenner. were you active in sports? mr. voebel. just in intramurals. mr. jenner. did he play any intramurals? mr. voebel. i don't know. i wasn't in the same gym class with him, so i can't say for certain on that. i don't know. he must have. i think everybody had to play some intramural sports. mr. jenner. did you have any impression as to whether he had a feeling that there were things that should have been accorded him by way of possession or attainment of worldly goods, of which he had been deprived because his father had predeceased him? mr. voebel. did he have a feeling of that at that time? mr. jenner. yes. mr. voebel. you see, he was years old, and i just don't think those thoughts would have occurred to him at such a young age, any more than it would have to me. we were just boys, and we were having a fairly good time, as all boys our age seemed to do. we would play darts and play pool, and do things like that which didn't cost a lot or anything. mr. jenner. well, i mean, did he say anything that would have given you that impression? mr. voebel. in fact, i am afraid that some of these impressions that i am giving you may have been developed later, since this assassination occurred. i don't mean that i had all of these impressions back when we were in beauregard together. mr. jenner. i understand that, but the commission is interested in the impression you had then of lee and the impressions you have now as compared to then. we are trying to get the complete background of this man in order to possibly arrive at the motive for this entire tragedy. mr. voebel. it's hard to get what i was thinking of then, and how i think now and separate the two; that's what i mean, because, of course, at that time nothing like this had happened, and i didn't have in mind trying to analyze lee's personality or anything. you just don't go out looking for something like that unless you have a reason. mr. jenner. you heard the rumor, or read about them at any rate, that lee oswald was studying communism when he was years of age, did you not? mr. voebel. yes. mr. jenner. did you see any evidence of that when you were going around and associating with lee oswald? mr. voebel. no; i didn't. mr. jenner. did you put any credence in that? mr. voebel. no; none whatever. as far as i know, i was the only one that would enter his home, around that age, so i would be the only one to know, and i can say for certain that the only things lee would be reading when i would be at his home would be comic books and the normal things that kids read. mr. jenner. were you a voracious reader in those days? mr. voebel. no. mr. jenner. what do you say as to lee oswald, if you know? mr. voebel. i really can't say for sure, but he did impress me, in the time that i knew him and associated with him, that he wasn't a great reader. we liked to fool around more than we liked to go to school, i guess you would say. mr. jenner. you would not consider that lee was a good reader? mr. voebel. no; i wouldn't. i know my studies always came hard to me, even music when i first started with it. mr. jenner. are you still interested in music? mr. voebel. yes; i still play music. mr. jenner. would you say, in looking back to your acquaintance with lee, that he had a normal curiosity about things, the normal curiosity of a young man of , , , or years old? mr. voebel. i would say that he had a normal curiosity, if i understand then what you mean by that. it's just that he didn't seem to be able to mix with people; that's all. mr. jenner. do you think that's a basic personality characteristic that has remained in your mind all these years? mr. voebel. right. it seems to me like he did like things and wanted to do things, but he just couldn't get himself to get with people, you see, and you just can't do too much by yourself. to me, i think that maybe his whole downfall was maybe a lack of communication with people. of course, i don't know the reason. i am not a psychologist. i can't tell you why, but somehow i have that feeling because i knew lee, and i knew how he didn't like to mix with people. mr. jenner. i gather from this discussion with you that, up until this horrible tragedy happened, you had at least a favorable impression of lee, and even though your opinion of his personality and attitude and behavior might have changed since you learned of this tragedy and since his death, you at least, up until that time, had a good opinion of him; is that right? mr. jenner. right. mr. jenner. you think he was a normal boy, at least in most respects, and he was not what we have referred to as a roustabout or a member of a gang at school, or anything like that? mr. voebel. that's right. mr. jenner. while you were going to beauregard? mr. voebel. yes. mr. jenner. but he did have trouble making friends at beauregard; right? mr. voebel. well, to tell you the truth, lee didn't go out and look for friends. he didn't seem to care about having friends. he had a few friends, but i think that was the way he wanted it. at least, that seems to be the way he was best able to cope with things, to just more or less be by himself and go and come as he wanted to. mr. jenner. and you don't think lee was an outstanding student in his studies at beauregard? you think he was more or less average; is that right? mr. voebel. yes; he was just an average student. mr. jenner. how was his attendance at school? did he miss many days; do you know? mr. voebel. no; i don't think he missed much schooling. i think his attendance was pretty good. mr. jenner. did you boys ever discuss the marines? mr. voebel. no; i was not much on the marines. mr. jenner. well, my question was did you talk about this subject with lee? mr. voebel. no; we didn't discuss that. mr. jenner. did he ever talk about his brothers? mr. voebel. no. i think that he mentioned he had one or two, but there was never any talk about them. i don't know anything about his brothers--i mean what they do, how they are, and what their life is. i have no impression of that whatsoever. mr. jenner. did you ever have the impression that he probably received his just dues in the world up to that point? mr. voebel. i think i made a statement to that effect, but i can't really say for sure. maybe it was later that i got that impression. that's hard to pinpoint right now, in looking back at all this. mr. jenner. but did you have such an impression at that time? mr. voebel. no; i had no impression like that at that time. like i said, i wasn't looking for stuff like that. mr. jenner. well, sometimes you don't look for that sort of thing because you have a previous impression; isn't that true? mr. voebel. yes; that's true, but i don't think i had that impression at that time. i'll say this: most of the things about lee i liked. i think i might have made a statement like that, about him being bitter toward the world and everything, but of course, that would have been my opinion since this happened. i wasn't talking then about when we were going to beauregard, to the same school. mr. jenner. do you remember making a statement to the fbi that in your opinion oswald was bitter since his father died when he was very young, and that he thought that he had had a raw deal out of life? mr. voebel. yes. mr. jenner. do you remember that statement? mr. voebel. yes. mr. jenner. do you still carry that opinion, and hold it? mr. voebel. like i say now, i think this opinion was formed later. mr. jenner. and you don't think you had those impressions then? mr. voebel. no; i didn't; not back in those days. i formed that later. mr. jenner. what was that embitterment directed toward? mr. voebel. toward authority, i would say. he didn't like authority. mr. jenner. you noticed that at that time, did you? mr. voebel. i think so. he didn't seem to like to be told what to do, or made to do something. mr. jenner. is there a civil air patrol unit here? mr. voebel. yes; i think they have two. mr. jenner. two? mr. voebel. yes, sir. mr. jenner. were there two here at that time? mr. voebel. yes. mr. jenner. did you and lee have any interest in the civil air patrol? mr. voebel. yes; i think i got him interested in it. we got to talking about it and i told him as much as i knew about it, and i think he attended maybe one or two meetings, and i think he even subsequently bought a uniform, and he attended at least one meeting that i remember, in that uniform, but after that he didn't show up again. mr. jenner. he just attended two meetings of the cap? mr. voebel. two or three meetings, i would say. mr. jenner. and that's all he attended? mr. voebel. yes. he lost interest after that, i think. mr. jenner. who was the majordomo of the cap unit that you attended? mr. voebel. i think it was captain ferrie. i think he was there when lee attended one of these meetings, but i'm not sure of that. now that i think of it, i don't think captain ferrie was there at that time, but he might have been. that isn't too clear to me. mr. jenner. lee did buy a uniform to attend these cap meetings and join the unit? mr. voebel. yes; he bought a uniform and everything, and he seemed to be very interested at the outset. he even got a paper route, i think it was, or something, to get enough money together to buy the uniform; he was that interested, and that's why i thought it strange when he didn't attend any more meetings. mr. jenner. you thought that was strange? mr. voebel. yes. after all this happened, and, of course, this is my opinion now, i guess--not then, but i think now maybe he liked the uniform to wear more than he did like going to the school, with those classes that we had. mr. jenner. you had classes at these meetings of the cap unit? mr. voebel. oh, yes; we had classes, and maybe that was the thing that lee didn't care for, because after those couple of meetings he just didn't show up any more. mr. jenner. did these classes at the cap unit that you attended require some study? mr. voebel. yes; they did. mr. jenner. did lee ever talk to you about himself and his history, of his earlier life? mr. voebel. his "history"? mr. jenner. yes; his background--anything about his family before he ever met you? mr. voebel. well, he mentioned the fact about his father dying, but he didn't talk about much else; i mean about when he was younger, or anything like that. maybe he might have mentioned about coming here from texas, and things like that, you know, at different times, but i don't recall all of that now. i got the impression somewhere that he wasn't born here, and i got the impression that he was from texas at that time, but, of course, that wasn't correct, as i learned after all this happened. but, i mean, we didn't sit around talking about things like that. we were more interested, i guess, in things at school and things that were going around, more up to date, i guess you would say. mr. jenner. did he talk to you at all about his life in texas, or to anyone in your presence, that you recall? mr. voebel. no. i mean, he might have mentioned it at different times, just as a passing remark, or something. you know how that is, but if he did it has just slipped my mind, because it wasn't anything that would impress me so that i would remember it. mr. jenner. did you attend these cap meetings once a week or twice a week, or how often? mr. voebel. twice a week, and now that i think of it, lee might have actually attended two or three meetings. it seems like he maybe attended two or three of them, but anyway he quit then, all of a sudden. he just quit coming, so i figured he had lost interest in the whole thing. mr. jenner. do you have any idea what made him quit attending those classes? mr. voebel. well, as i remember, we were having classes then on the weather, and that can be a drab subject, although it is essential, but maybe that's why he quit coming; i don't know. mr. jenner. was this cap unit coeducational? mr. voebel. yes. mr. jenner. because sometimes that can stimulate your interest too, isn't that right? mr. voebel. well, to tell you the truth, no. i had no girl friend out there at that time. i had a girl at the school, but that was it. mr. jenner. but there were girls out at this unit, attending these classes? mr. voebel. yes; but they were kept pretty well separated from us. they might have been in the classes, but the girls out there didn't interest me. mr. jenner. did they interest lee? mr. voebel. no; i don't think so. he wasn't very interested in girls. mr. jenner. he was not? mr. voebel. no. at least it didn't impress me that he was. he didn't show any inclination toward girls at all, that i could see. mr. jenner. did he have any sex deviation of any kind? mr. voebel. none whatever. mr. jenner. from your experience, he seemed to be perfectly normal in that respect? mr. voebel. yes. mr. jenner. he might have been interested in girls, but he just wasn't pushing it at that time if he was, is that about it? mr. voebel. i think he was more bashful about girls than anything else. i think that was probably it. mr. jenner. is there anything that you can think of from your acquaintance with lee, from what you knew about him then, that you could tell us that would be helpful to the commission, aside from what i have asked you? mr. voebel. no; i can't think of anything else. mr. jenner. now, in taking these depositions, you have the privilege of reading and signing your deposition, or you can waive that privilege and let the reporter transcribe the deposition, and it will be sent on to washington. however, if you want to read and sign it, it will be transcribed, and the u.s. attorney will contact you and let you know when you may come in and read and sign it. what is your preference in that regard? mr. voebel. well, i don't have to read it and sign it. i have just told you what i know about it. mr. jenner. you prefer to waive that then? mr. voebel. yes. mr. jenner. all right. thank you for coming in. testimony of william e. wulf the testimony of william e. wulf was taken on april - , , at the old civil courts building, royal and conti streets, new orleans, la., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. william b. wulf, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: mr. liebeler. mr. wulf, my name is wesley j. liebeler. i am a member of the legal staff of the president's commission investigating the assassination of president kennedy. staff members have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the commission pursuant to authority granted to the commission by executive order no. , dated november , , and joint resolution of congress no. . i understand that mr. rankin wrote to you last week---- mr. wulf. correct. mr. liebeler. advising you that i would be in touch with you---- mr. wulf. right. mr. liebeler. with respect to the taking of your testimony, and i understand that he enclosed with his letter copies of the executive order and the joint resolution to which i have just referred, as well as a copy of the rules of procedure relating to the taking of testimony. mr. wulf. correct. mr. liebeler. you did receive the letter, et cetera? mr. wulf. correct. mr. liebeler. we want to inquire of you concerning possible knowledge that you have of lee harvey oswald during the time that he lived in new orleans during the period - . before we get into the details of that, however, would you state your full name for the record. mr. wulf. my name is william eugene wulf. no junior. mr. liebeler. what is your address? mr. wulf. annunciation street, this city. mr. liebeler. where and when were you born, mr. wulf? mr. wulf. i was born in new orleans, september , . mr. liebeler. are you presently employed? mr. wulf. no. i am a student at louisiana state university at new orleans. mr. liebeler. what are you majoring in? mr. wulf. history. mr. liebeler. how long have you been attending lsu? mr. wulf. four and a half years. i am a senior at this time. mr. liebeler. you obtained your primary education and secondary education here in new orleans? mr. wulf. that is correct. mr. liebeler. where did you obtain that education, what schools? mr. wulf. my primary education was obtained, up until the seventh grade, at redemptorist grammar school. for high school i attended de la salle high school in , and in and i attended cor jesu high school in new orleans and graduated there in . mr. liebeler. and then from there you went to lsu? mr. wulf. lsu, right. mr. liebeler. have you been in the army or any branch of the military service? mr. wulf. no. i am exempted at this time. mr. liebeler. the commission has received information to the effect that you were the president of the new orleans amateur astronomy association---- mr. wulf. that is correct. mr. liebeler. sometime during the year . is that correct? mr. wulf. that is correct. mr. liebeler. what is the new orleans amateur astronomy association, or what was it at that time? mr. wulf. it was at that time an organization of mainly high school students in the city, mainly at de la salle at that time, interested in astronomy, who owned telescopes, did observation, etc. mr. liebeler. is the group still active? mr. wulf. no. we are still listed as active in the membership rolls of the national association, but we are not active due to the fact that most of the members are out of town, either in the military or in college. mr. liebeler. in connection with your activities in the new orleans amateur astronomy association, did there ever come a time when you were contacted by or met a person who you either now believe or know to be lee harvey oswald? mr. wulf. i believe it was. the one person who could have confirmed this in my behalf was mr. mcbride, p. e. mcbride, who is in florida at this time. mr. liebeler. that is palmer mcbride? mr. wulf. right. but i had met oswald through mcbride. he contacted me on getting into the astronomy club at that time, and it was--i had originally believed it was , but on recapitulating the time and all, probably it was september or august in . mr. liebeler. do you remember how oswald got in touch with you? mr. wulf. not exactly. it was either one of two ways. i believe he had talked to mcbride or mcbride had talked to him during the time they were working together at pfisterer's dental laboratory, and i believe he got in touch with me on the telephone about getting into the group and i told him--he asked me could he come over to the house one time, and i believe he soon did. i don't remember the time that elapsed between what i believe was the phone call and then the actual visit. mr. liebeler. this fellow that called you and then came over to your house did work at pfisterer's dental laboratory? is that correct? mr. wulf. most definitely; yes. that is what gave me reason to associate oswald with this particular person. mr. liebeler. this association was made by you at some time subsequent to the assassination. is that correct? mr. wulf. yes; subsequent. i believe it was either the saturday night following the assassination or sunday morning before i got the call from the federal bureau of investigation. mr. liebeler. you had read in the paper that lee oswald had been employed while living here in new orleans by pfisterer's dental laboratory, and then you associated oswald---- mr. wulf. no; not actually. i had remembered he had lived in new orleans, and then i tended to associate the name too and the picture, and then i subsequently found out--i confirmed it when i asked the fbi agent did this particular person at one time work for pfisterer's, and he said he believed he did, and that to me confirmed it was the same person. mr. liebeler. so you had already associated in your mind the name lee oswald with this fellow that called you, and also the pictures that you saw in the paper? mr. wulf. yes. mr. liebeler. and then as a result of that association, you asked the fbi whether this man had been employed by pfisterer's? mr. wulf. that is correct. one other thing made me come to the association, other than--i must stipulate at this time that when i had met him he spoke of communism and communistic association that he would like to achieve, and this also aided in this conclusion that i came to. mr. liebeler. now how did it come to be, if you know, that the fbi interviewed you? mr. wulf. i have no idea. mr. liebeler. you did not contact the fbi? mr. wulf. no; i did not, because i was not absolutely sure, and it was a sunday, either a saturday night or sunday, and during the chaos on the situation, and i believe i was personally affected by it as everyone else was personally affected by it, and i really did not think that the little knowledge i had would be important. i was even surprised that i got your letter from the commission. mr. liebeler. the agent that interviewed you didn't indicate in any way as to how they had been led to you? mr. wulf. in no way whatsoever. as far as i know, the only person that knew that i had met oswald, and that it was oswald, was palmer mcbride, so i concluded that he probably got in touch with the fbi on the subject, or someone got in touch with them, and then that is how they got this particular knowledge. mr. liebeler. when did you first make mcbride's acquaintance? do you remember? mr. wulf. yes. i will have to clarify that. i can get the records from the astronomy club, but i believe it was --that is a rough date--probably towards the end, probably--let's see--i am trying to associate it with the astronomy club dates--towards the end of the school year - , so that would probably be in--oh, march and april, around that. mr. liebeler. of ? mr. wulf. of , yes. it is sketchy. i really cannot say for sure. i could probably get it from the astronomy club's records, but---- mr. liebeler. the occasion of your first meeting was that he came to join the astronomy association---- mr. wulf. that is correct. mr. liebeler. with mcbride. did become closely acquainted with mcbride and become a friend of his after that? mr. wulf. oh, yes. i still, up until about months ago kept in contact with him, and i still know of his whereabouts, and when he comes to the city i still see him. mr. liebeler. mcbride at that time was working at pfisterer's dental laboratory? is that right? mr. wulf. yes, sir. i believe he was a delivery boy or a runner. i don't know the exact title of his position. mr. liebeler. have you ever spoken with mcbride about lee oswald? mr. wulf. only at the time that--two occasions or possibly three--i think it was two occasions that i met oswald, and i got some of oswald's beliefs, and i told--mcbride had always told me that he wanted to get into the military service as a career, especially rocket engineering and rocketry--like we all were nuts on rocketry at the time--and i told him, i said, "this boy oswald, if you associated with him, could be construed as a security risk, and especially if you want to get into a job position where the information you know could be of a security nature or of a type that could be of a security risk nature." mr. liebeler. you told that to mcbride some time back in ? is that correct? mr. wulf. yes. mr. liebeler. what led you to make that statement to mcbride? mr. wulf. i made that statement to mcbride after my second meeting with oswald when we got into a discussion--i being a history major and always been interested in history, some way or another we got around to communism. i think oswald brought it up, because he was reading some of my books in my library, and he started expounding the communist doctrine and saying that he was highly interested in communism, that communism was the only way of life for the worker, et cetera, and then came out with the statement that he was looking for a communist cell in town to join but he couldn't find any. he was a little dismayed at this, and he said that he couldn't find any that would show any interest in him as a communist, and subsequently, after this conversation, my father came in and we were kind of arguing back and forth about the situation, and my father came in the room, heard what we were arguing on communism, and that this boy was loud-mouthed, boisterous, and my father asked him to leave the house and politely put him out of the house, and that is the last i have seen or spoken with oswald. mr. liebeler. now you indicated that your argument was rather loud and boisterous? mr. wulf. yes. mr. liebeler. did oswald generally impress you as a loud or boisterous person? mr. wulf. well, he impressed me as a boy who could get violent over communism, who, if you did not agree with his belief, he would argue with you violently over it. this, as you know, was the period right before he moved, i believe, to dallas. i did hear that he had moved to dallas. i got that from mcbride. and he struck me as a very boisterous boy and very determined in his way about communism. mr. liebeler. did he strike you as boisterous in any other respect, or strongheaded about other things? mr. wulf. generally a strongheaded boy that knew his own mind, thought he knew his own mind, and would do his own will. he wanted his way, in other words. mr. liebeler. then there never was any question of physical---- mr. wulf. no. mr. liebeler. contact over this thing? mr. wulf. no, no. mr. liebeler. it was just a strongly presented argument? mr. wulf. no. my father just took him by the arm, and when he started hollering about communism and all, and my father had gone through communist affairs in germany in the 's, and did not agree with him violently, and he asked him to leave the house. mr. liebeler. is your father a native of germany? mr. wulf. hamburg. mr. liebeler. and he had been involved in some political activities with or opposed to the communists? mr. wulf. not that i know of. what i mean, he came back from germany following the war, - , when it was all upheaval. the democratic party was fighting the communist wing and all. he remembered that and he just--well, as most germans, a lot of germans, do, they just don't like communists. mr. liebeler. can you remember anything about the details of your first meeting with lee oswald? mr. wulf. very little. if i remember correctly, the main thing was that he asked--we talked about astronomy, and i drew from that, from the conversation, that he knew very little about astronomy, and it struck me that he wanted to join the group, because i expressed to him at the time that anyone with a little knowledge of astronomy was hampered in the group and mostly everybody in the group knew astronomy and we were not very much interested in teaching some fledgling all this data we had already gone through over the years, and he would actually be hampered in belonging to the group, and i actually discouraged him from joining the group for that reason. that is all i can remember of the first contact, because it was kind of late, it was probably or o'clock in the morning. mr. liebeler. this was at a meeting of the association? mr. wulf. no; this was at my home. mcbride had brought him to my house. it must have been o'clock at night or o'clock at night, something like that, and we got into a conversation on astronomy in general and just a general topical conversation as far as i can remember. it is somewhat hard to remember, you know, after all these years. mr. liebeler. there wasn't any discussion of politics or economics at that time? mr. wulf. not at that time; no. mr. liebeler. now can you remember anything else about the second meeting with lee oswald that you haven't already told us? mr. wulf. not specifically. all i can repeat is that we discussed communism in general and that oswald showed himself to be a self-made communist. i don't think anybody got to him, if you want to put it that way. he just learned it on his own. at that time i knew very little about communism, and he was just--actually militant on the idea, and i can repeat he expressed his belief that he could be a good communist, he could help the communist party out, if he could find the communist party to join it, and at that time he expressed that he couldn't and---- mr. liebeler. did he indicate in any way that he had actually tried to find a communist organization? mr. wulf. definitely. that is one thing that made me associate the name oswald with this particular person, that he definitely was looking for a communist party to join and he was very disgusted because he couldn't---- mr. liebeler. couldn't find one? mr. wulf. right. mr. liebeler. do you know whether oswald ever discussed matters such as this with mcbride? mr. wulf. now this would be hearsay. yes; i believe he had. mcbride and i had discussed oswald a few times between the second visit when we threw him out of the house or asked him to leave and his subsequent leaving for dallas. i continually tried to get mcbride to stop associating with oswald, and he did actually, as far as i know, except for, you know, working hours. mr. liebeler. and mcbride told you that oswald had also discussed communism with him? mr. wulf. oh, yes, yes; that he discussed it constantly when they were on the job and, you know, delivering dentures, and in their social association. it might be of importance to point out that both boys struck me as lonely boys. mcbride was working at that time, he had quit school and was working and going to a correspondence school, and i think they tended to associate because of that reason, because they were just plain lonely, not knowing too many people. mr. liebeler. this was true, in your opinion, both of oswald and mcbride? is that correct? mr. wulf. on this particular point, yes; that they were both--well, for one thing, i think that would lead a boy to get the type of job that they held at the time. i think most of the boys who held that job were that type of boy who were fighting education, except for mcbride--he wasn't fighting education, because he was fighting the need for more money. you know, a young boy like that, his family was quite large and not of very great income, and i think this made oswald and mcbride associate probably with each other, but i do know that he told me after this second visit that--we discussed oswald, and i discussed oswald specifically as a security risk. the reason why i was knowledgeable on this was that my father was in the merchant marine and on a navy reserve ship that did require some security clearance, and i was quite conscious of it, and also during the war, because we were german and i was quite conscious of security matters and all. mr. liebeler. do you know whether mcbride ever expressed any interest in communism or ever expressed any interest in communist organizations? mr. wulf. not really; no, no. as far as i know, definitely not. he was strong-willed, but never, as far as i know, ever expressed really any belief in communism. mr. liebeler. (exhibiting photograph to witness) i want to show you two pictures which have previously been marked "pizzo exhibits -a and -b." mr. wulf. right. mr. liebeler. i ask you if you recognize any of the individuals in those pictures? mr. wulf. well, yes; oswald marked " " on the top picture, "pizzo -b," and, of course, oswald again marked with the "x" in green on "pizzo -a." mr. liebeler. you recognize that as oswald? mr. wulf. yes. that is one of the things. i saw these films on tv and i subsequently saw them at the station. that is oswald, as far as i can associate. mr. liebeler. when you say "these films," you are inferring that these pictures that i have shown you are still photos taken out of---- mr. wulf. yes. these are mm. prints--i can tell by the grain--and they are either mm. or mm., probably mm. prints, and these are the ones, as far as i know, that wdsu had. i don't believe that is what you want though. that is the only one i can associate on there. i do not associate the other man marked---- mr. liebeler. do you identify this man as oswald based on your observation of him at the times you have mentioned, and not from having seen his pictures at other places in the newspaper? mr. wulf. no; i base that picture on--when i first saw those films originally, when it was originally shown on tv, i had a slight inkling that it was the same person, as far as i know. i mean, like i said, it was many years ago, it was--oh, years ago, or years ago. he was younger, he was a little bit heavier then, in the face especially, but he seems to me to be the same person. mr. liebeler. and that identification on your part is reinforced by the logical steps that---- mr. wulf. right, the logical association. yes; i admit this. mr. liebeler. and that logical association is the association that we have already described throughout this record? mr. wulf. right, right; and also the time factor when he was in new orleans, the association with pfisterer's laboratory, and that i know for a fact that in october of that year or early in the winter of that year that he did move to dallas, because mcbride told me that his mother and he had moved to dallas. also i knew a little bit about him. mcbride had discussed with me a little of his family situation. i had asked him about it because of his attitudes and such. mr. liebeler. how do you mean "his family situation"? you mean his mother? mr. wulf. yes; i asked mcbride specifically how come this boy was like this, mixed up and all, and he said he lived with his mother--this is hearsay, of course, through mcbride--that his mother didn't associate with him too much and the boy was pretty much on his own and a loner as such. mr. liebeler. and this was a discussion that you had with mcbride in - ? mr. wulf. right, . mr. liebeler. have you talked to mcbride about this thing since the assassination? mr. wulf. no, i have not. i have only corresponded with mcbride once, and that was about a month ago. i sent him an amateur radiogram requesting the address of a mutual friend in new york, but i got no answer, and we were wondering where he is. mr. liebeler. i can't think of any other questions at this point. if you can think of anything else that you know about that you would like to add or that you think would be helpful to the commission, i would appreciate it if you would add it. mr. wulf. not that i know of. the only thing i can--i don't know how many people have told you of this period of his life--i amplify that at this time oswald was definitely communist-minded, he was violently for communism, and this is what struck me as so odd for a boy so young at the time. i believe we were both , and he was quite violent for communism. his beliefs seemed to be warped but strong, and one thing that did hit me, he seemed--i told this to mcbride at the time--he seemed to me a boy that was looking for something to belong to. i don't think anybody was looking for him to belong to them, and it may have been a problem, but he was definitely looking for something to associate himself with. he had very little self-identification, and at the time he hit me as somebody who was looking for identification, and he just happened, i guess, to latch on to this particular area to become identified with. that is about all i know of him at that time, and following that period, after he moved from new orleans and went to dallas, i knew nothing of him until i saw what i thought was him at the time, but i was not sure, the films that you showed me. mr. liebeler. i don't have any other questions at this point. i want to thank you very much for coming in and cooperating with us to the extent that you have. the commission appreciates it very much. mr. wulf. that is quite all right. i am glad we could help. testimony of mrs. bennierita smith the testimony of mrs. bennierita smith was taken on april - , , at the old civil courts building, royal and conti streets, new orleans, la., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mrs. bennierita smith, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: mr. liebeler. mrs. smith, my name is wesley j. liebeler. i am a member of the legal staff of the president's commission investigating the assassination of president kennedy. staff members have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the commission pursuant to the authority granted to the commission by executive order no. , dated november , , and joint resolution of congress no. . i understand that mr. rankin wrote to you last week indicating that i would be in touch with you concerning your testimony. mrs. smith. yes; he did. mr. liebeler. and that he enclosed with his letter a copy of the executive order and of the resolution to which i have just referred, as well as a copy of the rules of procedure adopted by the commission concerning the taking of testimony of witnesses. did you receive mr. rankin's letter and those documents? mrs. smith. yes; i did. mr. liebeler. one of the areas of inquiry of the commission relates to the background and possible motive of lee harvey oswald, the alleged assassin of the president. we understand that you knew lee oswald at some point while he was living here in new orleans. before we get into the details of that, however, i would like to have you state your name for the record, if you will. mrs. smith. bennierita smith. mr. liebeler. you are married? is that correct? mrs. smith. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. what was your name before you were married? mrs. smith. sparacio. my maiden name? mr. liebeler. yes. mrs. smith. sparacio, s-p-a-r-a-c-i-o. mr. liebeler. where do you live? mrs. smith. delambert in chalmette. mr. liebeler. where and when were you born? mrs. smith. i was born in new orleans the th of january . mr. liebeler. would you outline for us your educational background, please. mrs. smith. starting from kindergarten? mr. liebeler. yes. mrs. smith. well, i went to st. dominic's. that is on harrison avenue in lakeview. then i went--it was either the third or fourth grade i transferred to lakeview school, and then when i finished lakeview school i went on to beauregard, and from there to warren easton, and that is all the schooling i have had. mr. liebeler. did you graduate from warren easton high school? mrs. smith. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. when did you graduate? mrs. smith. . mr. liebeler. am i correct in understanding that you attended beauregard junior high school at the same time that lee oswald did? mrs. smith. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. did you know lee oswald at the time you both attended beauregard junior high school? mrs. smith. well, i knew him from seeing him walk around school, and well, i guess i could remember him so much because he was always getting in fights with people, but as far as really knowing him well outside of school, you know, seeing him, i don't. mr. liebeler. well, now you mentioned that he was always getting in fights? mrs. smith. yes. mr. liebeler. will you tell us what you know about that? mrs. smith. one fight really impressed me, i guess because there was this boy--he wasn't going to beauregard, this boy he had the fight with, and he was a little guy. i think his name was robin riley. he hit lee, and his tooth came through his lip. mr. liebeler. through the upper part of his lip? mrs. smith. oh, gee, i don't know whether it was a bottom---- mr. liebeler. but it actually tore the lip? mrs. smith. yes; it actually tore the lip, and i remember--what is that boy's name?--the blond fellow that was on television that knew him so well? mr. liebeler. are you thinking of edward voebel? mrs. smith. that is him. mr. liebeler. v-o-e-b-e-l? mrs. smith. he took him back in school, and i guess they kind of patched his lip up, but he was--he more or less kept to himself, he didn't mix with the other kids in school other than voebel. he is the only one i remember. and they had this little boy--i think it was bobby newman--he used to take around with, but i don't remember too much about him either. i can remember he was little, he was short. mr. liebeler. who was? mrs. smith. bobby newman. mr. liebeler. bobby newman? mrs. smith. but he was, i guess, the studious type. well, it seemed to me. he was always studying, you know, reading books, and that is as far as--i don't know what his grades were, but as far as him mixing with other people, he didn't. you know, like when you go to school, more or less everybody has their own group. well, there wasn't anybody he hung around with, except, like i said, edward voebel. mr. liebeler. how well do you know mr. voebel? mrs. smith. not well at all, i mean just from seeing him in school. i knew his parents had owned the quality florists on canal street. well, i knew his sisters. mr. liebeler. you knew voebel's sister? mrs. smith. yes; he has got two, they are twins, doris--and they call the other one teddy. i don't know what her real name was. mr. liebeler. did you ever hear what this fight was all about, the one you described in which oswald had his lip cut? mrs. smith. no; i really didn't. i just saw people standing around and knew there was a fight, and, you know, went over to see. mr. liebeler. did you get the impression that oswald started the fight or that the other guy started the fight? mrs. smith. i really don't know. i didn't know what happened. well, i know this boy was, i guess, a kind of a smart alec, this guy he had the fight with, this robin riley. well, he was always hanging around school but he didn't go there, you know, he just---- mr. liebeler. was this riley boy older, do you know, or about the same age as the rest of the students? mrs. smith. i think he was older, because he had a sister that went to warren easton with me and she was older, she was a grade ahead of me, and i am almost sure he was older than her. mr. liebeler. this fellow didn't go to beauregard junior high school? mrs. smith. no. mr. liebeler. do you know if he went to school somewhere else? mrs. smith. no; i sure don't. mr. liebeler. is that the only fight that you can recall in which oswald was involved? mrs. smith. that is all. mr. liebeler. did you see the television program that was played over wdsu shortly after the assassination in which voebel appeared? mrs. smith. yes; i did see that. larry lala and bob jones had come to my house. well, i knew larry. he knew i went to beauregard, and he called me up and asked me if i had remembered lee oswald, and when i thought about him, you know, things started coming back. it had been such a long time. and he asked me if they could come over, that they were writing this story on him, and i told him to come over if he wanted but i didn't think i could really help him, because it wasn't anything i knew about him. mr. liebeler. this person that called you was a newspaper reporter? mrs. smith. well, he works for wwl. he takes the news films for them. and when he came in the house, i thought he would come with a pad and pencil, and he walks in with cameras and lights. he picked up one of my girl friends, he brought her over, and this other girl i went to school with, she was at my house, she had spent the day with me. it just so happened she was there. and then they just asked us questions, but i told larry about that fight. well, he had remembered the same incident. mr. liebeler. did you appear in the television program? mrs. smith. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. you did? mrs. smith. yes, sir; the three of us. mr. liebeler. three of you would be yourself--and what were the names of the other two girls? mrs. smith. anna alexander langlois and peggy murphy zimmerman. mr. liebeler. now these two boys that you mentioned were classmates of yours at beauregard junior high school? is that right? mrs. smith. larry and bob? mr. liebeler. yes. mrs. smith. no; larry--i met larry--gee, i don't even remember--i guess maybe at a school dance or something--and i went out with him, and he knew i went to beauregard, you see. that is why he called me to see if i had remembered lee, because i guess they were trying to get some--well, more or less a story together. mr. liebeler. what about the other boy? mrs. smith. bob jones? mr. liebeler. yes. mrs. smith. well, he broadcasts the news. mr. liebeler. he works for the television station? mrs. smith. and he just came. well, he asked us questions and then we just answered him, but i didn't know him. mr. liebeler. do you remember what you told him at that time? you mentioned this fight to him? mrs. smith. i mentioned that, and then he just asked us how well we knew him, and we told him we didn't really know him as far as--like we would know him from seeing him walk through the halls at school or in class, but as far as knowing him outside of school, well, we didn't. mr. liebeler. did you know where he lived? mrs. smith. no; i didn't, not until, well, i read it in the paper. mr. liebeler. did your other two girl friends remember any more details about lee oswald than you did? mrs. smith. no. bob asked us how he dressed, and we told him, you know, that he always wore these sweater vests--they are more or less in style now, i guess, than they were when we were going to school--it was just like wearing your father's sweater or something, but, you know, maybe he was outstanding in that way. but that is all we told him. my girl friend told him about that, and--i am trying to remember. mr. liebeler. do you remember that lee wore the sweater vests, or was that something that one of your girl friends remembered? mrs. smith. well, she mentioned it, and then, well, we did remember him dressing that way. mr. liebeler. which one of your girl friends was it mentioned this first? mrs. smith. i think it was peggy. mr. liebeler. peggy? mrs. smith. peggy zimmerman. mr. liebeler. was there anything else that the three of you were able to recall about lee oswald, either at the time you were questioned by the television people or after that? mrs. smith. no. mr. liebeler. was this the only fight, the one we talked about? was this the only fight that any of you had ever remembered lee oswald being involved in? mrs. smith. that is the only one i remembered. somebody had said he was in a fight with johnny neumeyer. mr. liebeler. was that one of your girl friends who mentioned that? mrs. smith. i am not sure if it was them or if it was anna's brother who told her. mr. liebeler. do you remember whether lee oswald dated any girls at the time he went to beauregard? mrs. smith. not that i know of, not in school. mr. liebeler. it was your impression that lee oswald didn't have any close associates or close friends while he was at beauregard, with the possible exception of mr. voebel? is that right? mrs. smith. that is right. mr. liebeler. now aside from your recollection about lee's wearing a sweater vest, can you remember anything else about the way he dressed? mrs. smith. he wore levis, i think. mr. liebeler. was that different from what the other students wore? mrs. smith. yes. well, they more or less wore slacks, you know, pants or khakis. mr. liebeler. was lee ever criticized or given a hard time because of the way he dressed or the way he---- mrs. smith. no; not that i remember. mr. liebeler. do you remember that lee was ever bullied or pushed around by the other boys for any reason? mrs. smith. no; not that i remember. mr. liebeler. there isn't anything that stands out in your mind about lee oswald that really would set him apart from the other students, is there, or---- mrs. smith. well, i can just remember him walking, like down the hall in school, and he would just walk like he was proud, you know, just show his back and--but there isn't anything other than that fight. i think that is what made me remember him the most. mr. liebeler. do you know whether people thought that he was peculiar or arrogant because of this way in which he carried himself and the way in which he walked? mrs. smith. no. he never did mingle with anyone, you know. i guess they just more or less left him alone, unless if he ever started a fight with them or---- mr. liebeler. did you ever hear of lee starting a fight with anybody? mrs. smith. no. mr. liebeler. you don't know how this fight---- mrs. smith. i don't know how this fight started, i really don't. like i say, i saw a group of people standing around, and when i went to see, they were fighting, but i really---- mr. liebeler. have you talked to voebel at all about this? mrs. smith. no, sir; i haven't seen him--gee, i guess since i graduated from beauregard. mr. liebeler. now where is beauregard junior high school located? mrs. smith. on canal street, but i don't know the address. it is near the end of the streetcar line, near the cemeteries, across the street from st. anthony's church. mr. liebeler. is it near the downtown section of canal street, or is it out farther? mrs. smith. no; well, it is further down. mr. liebeler. approximately how far would it be from where we are now? mrs. smith. oh, it is all the way down at the other end of canal street. i mean, you know how it is? the river is down here [indicating]. well, it is on the other side of town. mr. liebeler. quite a way from here? mrs. smith. oh, yes, sir. i mean, you take the streetcar and you ride practically to the end of the line. mr. liebeler. before you got to beauregard? mrs. smith. it is about three blocks from the end of the line, the end of the streetcar line. mr. liebeler. so it would be several miles from here, would it not? mrs. smith. yes, sir; i guess--let's see--it must be about the or block, something like that, of canal street. mr. liebeler. in the block? mrs. smith. i think so. i am not sure. mr. liebeler. this is beauregard we are talking about? mrs. smith. beauregard; yes. mr. liebeler. can you tell me the area the people that went to beauregard junior high school came from? was it just the area surrounding the school, or did they come from all parts of new orleans, or just how did they decide who was to go to that high school? mrs. smith. each high school has its own district, so that the people that lived in lakeview went to beauregard. if you lived in gentilly, you couldn't go to beauregard unless you got a permit from the school board. mr. liebeler. what kind of neighborhood was it? what kind of a district was it that beauregard drew its students from back in , and ? mrs. smith. well, it's a nice neighborhood, it still is today. mr. liebeler. has it changed much since then? mrs. smith. no; i don't think so. mr. liebeler. would you say that it draws from an upper-middle class or middle-class neighborhood? mrs. smith. middle-class neighborhood. mr. liebeler. you don't have any idea where lee oswald lived during the time that he went to beauregard, do you? mrs. smith. no; sir. mr. liebeler. did you ever know that he lived in exchange alley? mrs. smith. no, sir; not until i seen it in the paper. mr. liebeler. off the record a minute. (discussion off the record) mr. liebeler. you said that after you graduated from beauregard junior high school you went to warren easton high school? is that correct? mrs. smith. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. now does warren easton high school also draw from a particular district, or is that operated on a different principle than beauregard? mrs. smith. that draws from a district too. mr. liebeler. and that district included the district encompassed by beauregard junior high school? mrs. smith. yes; and also, well, around easton. mr. liebeler. it includes other districts aside from the beauregard junior high school district, does it not? mrs. smith. well, all the kids that went to beauregard automatically went to easton, of course, unless they moved out of the district, but it drew kids that lived around easton too. i mean the district widened, it got larger like from beauregard to easton, you know. mr. liebeler. did you know that lee oswald attended warren easton high school? mrs. smith. i can remember seeing him there. my girl friends didn't, but i remembered seeing him, you know, walking down the hall or walking outside of school. mr. liebeler. but nothing else? mrs. smith. but as far as recalling anything about him at warren easton other than that, i don't. mr. liebeler. there wasn't any event that he was involved in that stands out in your mind? mrs. smith. no, sir. mr. liebeler. do you remember when you saw lee oswald at warren easton? was it immediately after you started warren easton after graduating from beauregard junior high school? mrs. smith. yes; it was right after we had started at warren easton. mr. liebeler. you yourself did graduate from warren easton, did you not? mrs. smith. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. you actually attended warren easton for three years? is that right? mrs. smith. yes, sir; i did. mr. liebeler. do you remember seeing lee oswald over a long period of time at warren easton, or was it just for a part? mrs. smith. no; just--i may have just seen him once or twice at the beginning of the school year. mr. liebeler. did warren easton students come from pretty much the same kind of family background or the same kind of economic and social background as the people who went to beauregard junior high school? mrs. smith. i think so, but there were a few kids--well, boys--that were---- mr. liebeler. of a somewhat rougher nature, shall we say? mrs. smith. yes; i wouldn't want to say hoodlums, but they were, you know. mr. liebeler. there were people from a different class or different group of society? mrs. smith. there were rumors that some of them took dope. of course, i don't know how true it is, but that is what they say. mr. liebeler. you never had any knowledge of anything like that or heard any rumors about that at beauregard, did you? mrs. smith. no; i never have. mr. liebeler. if you can think of anything else about lee oswald that i haven't asked you about, we would appreciate it very much if you would set it forth on the record now. can you think of anything else that we haven't covered? mrs. smith. there isn't anything else i can think of. mr. liebeler. i have no other questions at this point. i do want to thank you for coming down and cooperating with us to the extent that you have, and, on behalf of the commission i want to thank you very much. testimony of frederick s. o'sullivan the testimony of frederick s. o'sullivan was taken on april - , , at the old civil courts building, royal and conti streets, new orleans, la., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. frederick s. o'sullivan, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: mr. liebeler. my name is wesley j. liebeler. i am a member of the legal staff of the president's commission investigating the assassination of president kennedy. staff members have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the commission pursuant to authority granted to the commission by executive order no. , dated november , , and joint resolution of congress no. . i understand that mr. rankin wrote to you last week telling you that i would be in touch with you concerning the taking of your testimony, and that he enclosed with his letter a copy of the executive order and the joint resolution just referred to, as well as a copy of the rules of procedure of the commission relating to the taking of testimony of witnesses. did you receive the letter? mr. o'sullivan. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. the documents i referred to were enclosed with it; were they not? mr. o'sullivan. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. one of the things the commission is interested in is the background of lee harvey oswald, the alleged assassin, to the extent that knowledge of his background can assist the commission in evaluating mr. oswald's possible motive, if it is true, as it was alleged, that he was the assassin. before we get into the knowledge that you may have of oswald, would you state your full name for the record. mr. o'sullivan. frederick stephen patrick o'sullivan. mr. liebeler. what is your address, mr. o'sullivan? mr. o'sullivan. heritage avenue, gretna, la. mr. liebeler. you are a member of the new orleans police department, as i understand. is that correct? mr. o'sullivan. i am. mr. liebeler. you are a detective on the vice squad? mr. o'sullivan. right. mr. liebeler. how long have you been with the new orleans police department? mr. o'sullivan. six years. mr. liebeler. you were born here in new orleans? is that correct? mr. o'sullivan. i was. mr. liebeler. and how old are you now? mr. o'sullivan. twenty-six. mr. liebeler. i understand that you knew lee oswald when he attended a junior high school here in new orleans. is that correct? mr. o'sullivan. yes; beauregard junior high. mr. liebeler. beauregard junior high? mr. o'sullivan. on canal street. mr. liebeler. your own education included attendance at beauregard junior high school? mr. o'sullivan. it did. mr. liebeler. how long did you go to beauregard? mr. o'sullivan. one year. mr. liebeler. and where did you go prior to that time? mr. o'sullivan. st. dominic's. mr. liebeler. st. dominic's? mr. o'sullivan. elementary school. mr. liebeler. here in new orleans? mr. o'sullivan. in lakeview in new orleans. mr. liebeler. after you left beauregard, where did you go? mr. o'sullivan. i went to warren easton senior high school. mr. liebeler. is that here in new orleans also? mr. o'sullivan. yes. mr. liebeler. and did you graduate from warren easton high school? mr. o'sullivan. i did. mr. liebeler. did you attend college at any place? mr. o'sullivan. yes; i am in college in loyola right now through a police department scholarship. mr. liebeler. tell us everything that you can remember about oswald when you knew him at beauregard junior high school, how you met him, what contacts you had with him, just the whole story. mr. o'sullivan. all right. i was a cadet in civil air patrol, and while i was in beauregard we were having a recruiting drive to get more cadet members in the new orleans squadron, and there were three fellows at the school that i talked to in particular about joining that. one was joseph thompson, one was edward voebel--i am not sure how that name is spelled--and lee harvey oswald. my reason for asking oswald to join was i noticed--we had a drill team, we were real proud of our drill team. mr. liebeler. this was a marching team? mr. o'sullivan. a marching unit; yes, sir, and oswald carried himself always erect, always gave the impression that he could be marching, that he may be marching, eyes straight ahead, head straight, shoulders back, so he impressed me as the sort of a fellow that would really fit well on the drill team. he seemed like he could--well, he even gave the impression that he would make a pretty good leader if he ever got into the squadron, so with this recruiting drive i asked the three of them to come out to the airport. i explained what we did out there, marching and flying on the weekends and so forth to them at school. joseph thompson and oswald and voebel all three came out to the airport. joe thompson stayed in the squadron, and oswald came to one or two meetings, possibly three, along with voebel. however, voebel then joined the civil air patrol at moisant airport, and because he was a closer friend of oswald, he evidently talked oswald into coming out to the squadron he had joined. mr. liebeler. at moisant field? mr. o'sullivan. at moisant airport. mr. liebeler. right. mr. o'sullivan. yes. incidentally, oswald--i didn't know this until i read it in the paper--lived only a half a block from me for a short time. i lived in lakeview at french street, i believe, and he lived either in the or the block of french street. mr. liebeler. that would have been in when he came here to new orleans? is that correct? mr. o'sullivan. oh, i didn't live there at that time. no, i moved from french street around . mr. liebeler. can you remember anything else about oswald at the time he was in beauregard junior high school with you, about his friendships? did he have many friends at that time, or do you recall? mr. o'sullivan. no; i believe he and i, because of the spelling of our last names, were possibly in the same homeroom in the morning, but i really don't recall anything. i don't recall much about any of the students at beauregard or at warren easton. i sort of--i was an athlete, and we stayed away from the rest of the students. they had a thing that they kept us away from the rest of the students pretty much. mr. liebeler. you say you were an athlete at beauregard? mr. o'sullivan. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. what particular sport were you involved in? mr. o'sullivan. football and track, and the same at warren easton. mr. liebeler. did oswald, as far as you know, ever have anything to do with sports activities? mr. o'sullivan. no. mr. liebeler. do you remember whether oswald and voebel were close acquaintances at that time, or do you know? mr. o'sullivan. only in that voebel left the new orleans squadron and went out to moisant and evidently--or i believe he talked oswald into coming out there with him. mr. liebeler. now you don't know of your own knowledge whether or not oswald ever did join the civil air patrol, do you? mr. o'sullivan. no; i don't know that he signed any papers or had uniforms or anything. i know that he came out to new orleans airport and attended some of the meetings, but whether he just--you see, a lot of time people would come out and sit in the classes to decide whether they wanted to join or not. we will allow this, hoping to get more cadets. i don't know that he ever signed any papers or joined. you can check with the louisiana wing headquarters and they can give it to you. mr. liebeler. you don't know whether oswald ever did actually go out to moisant field to civil air patrol meetings at that place? mr. o'sullivan. no. mr. liebeler. did you have rifles as a part of your civil air patrol program? did you have rifle practice and drill with rifles? mr. o'sullivan. we didn't drill with rifles, but we did belong to the nra and we did fire rifles on the range, and also when we went to summer camp we would fire on the range. mr. liebeler. nra is the national rifle association? is that correct? mr. o'sullivan. correct. mr. liebeler. what kind of rifles did you fire when you went to summer camp? mr. o'sullivan. now i am getting summer camp mixed up with the national guard. i believe we fired . 's in the cap. mr. liebeler. did you ever observe oswald engage in rifle practice of any kind in connection with cap activities? mr. o'sullivan. no, sir. mr. liebeler. do you know whether or not oswald ever did engage in any rifle practice in connection with the cap? mr. o'sullivan. no, sir. mr. liebeler. do you know david ferrie, f-e-r-r-i-e? mr. o'sullivan. yes, sir; i know him. mr. liebeler. do you know of any connection between oswald and david ferrie? mr. o'sullivan. no; i have no personal knowledge of anything. mr. liebeler. ferrie was involved with the cap squadron at new orleans airport at the time voebel and oswald came out to join it? is that correct? mr. o'sullivan. ferrie was in charge of the squadron, and then there was a captain hinton. now i was in the squadron for years, so i am not sure who was in charge at what particular time. i am not sure. he could have been. he may have been, but i am not sure. i know that when he left the new orleans squadron, ferrie did have something to do with the moisant squadron, so he may have. if he wasn't in charge when oswald was out at new orleans airport, he may have been in charge when he went to moisant airport. mr. liebeler. but you don't know of any time that oswald associated with or knew ferrie through the civil air patrol? mr. o'sullivan. no; i am not sure of any. mr. liebeler. now you said that you had no personal knowledge or no direct knowledge of any relationship between oswald and ferrie? mr. o'sullivan. no. mr. liebeler. do you have any information that would lead you to believe that there was a relationship between these two men? mr. o'sullivan. only that when all of this broke with oswald, i went through all of the old cap files that were available, trying to get some information for the secret service, the people who had called me up at home, and---- mr. liebeler. where were these files located? mr. o'sullivan. these files are in the possession of one robert boylston. mr. liebeler. who was he? mr. o'sullivan. he was also a member of the cap at the time we all were, at new orleans. mr. liebeler. how did the records come to be in his possession? mr. o'sullivan. he is a senior member now. he has maybe recently dropped out, but he was a senior member and these records were just turned over to him in the whole filing cabinet. they are all old records. i am trying to get the thing straight in my mind. of course, i have been trying to get it straight in my mind, just what i know and what i have heard. it gets kind of confusing when you read so much. sometimes you remember things that you don't really remember, you know. mr. liebeler. did you find anything in these files that related to ferrie or oswald? mr. o'sullivan. well, we found papers signed by ferrie but nothing in relation to oswald. his name wasn't mentioned in anything at all that we could find, so we assumed at that time that oswald was in the moisant squadron. i believe they even had in the paper the dates, and we checked those particular dates and it turned out that ferrie was in a transition between the new orleans squadron and the moisant squadron in these dates, so he could have been involved either way with oswald. i don't know if he was involved, he could have been. mr. liebeler. but you found nothing in the files? mr. o'sullivan. nothing concrete. mr. liebeler. that you investigated as to the relation between oswald and ferrie? mr. o'sullivan. no. mr. liebeler. am i correct in understanding that there has been publicity here in the new orleans area concerning a possible relationship between oswald and ferrie? mr. o'sullivan. yes, sir; i believe captain ferrie was arrested. i am sure he was arrested, and i believe it was in connection with this oswald situation. he was booked at the first district station. i don't know just what he was charged with, i believe just , under investigation of whatever it was, i don't know. mr. liebeler. now you go ahead. mr. o'sullivan. lieutenant dwyer, paul dwyer, from the new orleans police department, intelligence division, i accompanied him out to new orleans airport where we found dave ferrie's airplane. we wanted to check it to see if it was flyable, to see possibly whether he had been flying it lately, with the thought that he may have transported oswald to dallas. this isn't my thought, this was brought up to me, and we found his plane, but his plane was not in flyable condition. it had flat tires, instruments missing, needed a paint job. we also checked to see if he had rented an aircraft from any of the companies out there, and one company in particular said that they wouldn't rent him an airplane. mr. liebeler. did they tell you why? mr. o'sullivan. no. mr. liebeler. you are a detective on the vice squad? is that correct? mr. o'sullivan. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. are you assigned to a particular aspect of vice activities here in new orleans? mr. o'sullivan. no, sir; there are only nine of us to cover the whole city. therefore, we handle any vice, gambling, prostitution, homosexuals, handbooks. anything that comes under the vice laws, we handle. mr. liebeler. you have never had any contact with ferrie in connection with your activities on the vice squad? is that correct? mr. o'sullivan. no; ferrie lives or he did live in jefferson parish. we have no authority in jefferson parish. [deletion.] mr. liebeler. now see if you can recall or think back to your experiences in the beauregard junior high school, and tell us if you can remember anything else or if there is anything else that you want to add what you have already said about your knowledge of oswald and his activities at the time he was at beauregard junior high school. mr. o'sullivan. well, i have put quite a bit of thought on this ever since it all happened, especially since i have gotten this correspondence relative to what i know about it, and as much as i would like to help you as much as i can, i just can't think of anything else. i don't want to say something i am not sure of. well, actually, even if i thought of something, i would tell you and tell you i am not sure, but there is nothing else i can think of. mr. liebeler. all right. i have no other questions at this time, and if there is nothing else that you want to add to the record, on behalf of the commission, i want to thank you very much for your cooperation. mr. o'sullivan. yes, sir; thank you. testimony of mrs. mildred sawyer the testimony of mrs. mildred sawyer was taken on april - , , at the old civil courts building, royal and conti streets, new orleans, la., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mrs. mildred sawyer, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: mr. liebeler. my name is wesley j. liebeler. i am a member of the legal staff of the president's commission investigating the assassination of president kennedy. the commission staff members have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the commission pursuant to authority to the commission by executive order no. , dated november , , and joint resolution of congress no. . i understand that mr. rankin wrote to you last week and told you that we would be in touch with you about the taking of your testimony. mrs. sawyer. yes. mr. liebeler. and that he enclosed with that letter a copy of the executive order and the congressional resolution to which i have just referred, and also a copy of the commission's rules governing the taking of testimony of witnesses. is that correct? mrs. sawyer. that is correct. at the time that i spoke to your mr. gerrets last night, i hadn't gone through some mail that was in my place and had been picked up by my aunt when she came by and picked up the mail on that saturday morning, and i hadn't even bothered going through it, because most of the time the mail i have is just bills or some advertisements, and it is very inconsequential, so, as a result, after hearing that i was supposed to have a letter, i became a little curious and looked, and i found that there was one. mr. liebeler. good. technically, witnesses are entitled to days' notice before being required to appear. i don't think you had quite days' notice, but you can waive that if you want to. as long as you are here, i assume you will want to go ahead. mrs. sawyer. certainly. i will be very glad to, because i am afraid there is very little i know. mr. liebeler. i don't think we will take very long, actually, but one of the things the commission is trying to do is develop as much background knowledge about lee harvey oswald as it possibly can, in the hope that it might give some insight into his possible motive, if in fact he did assassinate the president. mrs. sawyer. i see. mr. liebeler. would you state your full name for the record? mrs. sawyer. mildred sawyer. mr. liebeler. where do you live? mrs. sawyer. i live in lakeview; louisville street; part of the time with my father, and then i have a little place on exchange place where i kept my husband's books and things, where we always worked, more or less a little office, and when the weather was bad or when i felt too pressed with work, or if i am tired and don't feel like going to dad's, i stay there. my husband and i had the place arranged so, whenever we wanted to, we could stay there. mr. liebeler. your husband is deceased? is that correct? mrs. sawyer. yes. mr. liebeler. how long have you lived at the exchange place apartment? mrs. sawyer. oh, whenever the monteleone hotel took over the place where we were living, which belonged to mr. saussaye, on royal street, and he owned that building there, and the monteleone hotel--you remember when they tore it down and remodeled to make a parking garage there? we had to leave at that time, and then we were looking for some little place to store all our books and everything--my husband was an engineer and we had a lot of things that we worked on, and he was in and out of the city, so when he came in it was very convenient to have someplace like that where we could work sometimes, if we felt like it, way past midnight, and that would have disturbed my father, who was quite old--he is , in fact--so that is how we started looking around, and we found this little place and took it, and i have been going back and forth ever since. mr. liebeler. that would have been in the 's sometime? mrs. sawyer. i am trying to recall the year, but really i can't without looking at my receipts. it would be hard for me to remember that. my husband died years ago in november, and we were there at least years or years, i think. i am not certain of the time. i mean it is kind of hard for me to reconstruct, to go back. anyway, whatever it was, when we moved there these people, this mrs. oswald and her son, were living there in the apartment below the one that we took, and they remained there a short while, and they moved away after that and i never heard any more or anything until then, and i had forgotten all about the name of the people or anything until finally your men called. mr. liebeler. you mean you were interviewed by someone from the fbi sometime back in november? mrs. sawyer. yes. there was an fbi man who called me sometime back, and that is when i realized that they were the same people. mr. liebeler. did you become acquainted with mrs. oswald to any extent during the time that you lived at this exchange place? mrs. sawyer. not really, because--well, she was old enough to be my mother, i might say, and our working all the time--and so was my husband--and then i was connected with the opera group here and i was out most of the time, and when we met it was usually on the stairway or in and out the door, once in awhile talking on the steps, perhaps. about the most we did was bid each other the time of day, and that is about all, and, of course, the little boy the same thing. and i say "little boy" because to me he was a child when i saw him. i can vaguely remember, or i have a mental picture of, a little boy with blond, curly hair and rather nice looking, and that is about all i can say, and once in a while if he happened to be going out or coming in at the time i was going, he would always open the door and hold the door for me, and he seemed quite polite. mr. liebeler. he was about years old? mrs. sawyer. i would say he must have been about . i say he was a little boy because i am sure he was an early teenager. of course, as i say, i have lost track of time then. i was wondering how old he actually is or was. mr. liebeler. is the address of this place exchange place? mrs. sawyer. yes. mr. liebeler. it is not in exchange alley? mrs. sawyer. it is exchange place, and exchange place and exchange alley are one and the same thing. years ago they used to be called exchange alley. mr. liebeler. do you know what mrs. oswald did for a living? mrs. sawyer. yes. that much i do know, because i believe she was working as a clerk in kreeger's, but i am not positive. i have been trying to think since i had to come here, and she left there, and i believe she either went to goldring's or godchaux's--i don't remember which--because she met me on the street one day and asked if i was buying any clothes and would i not come by and buy from her so that she might get the commission or show me something i might be interested in. in fact, i never did go; i never did buy, though. i never did go to her for anything. mr. liebeler. the only two people that lived in the apartment were mrs. oswald and this boy? is that right? mrs. sawyer. that is all. mr. liebeler. do you know how big an apartment it was? mrs. sawyer. well, i imagine it consisted of about the same size or same things as the one that we have; that is, a large living room, combination dining room or a little dining alcove, and a small bath, a small kitchen, and a rather large bedroom with large closet space, and i am sure--seeing it, well, i would say the stretch of the building going up the stairway, i would say that it was the same thing, or close to it anyway. i am sure it had the same dimensions. mr. liebeler. do you remember anything about lee oswald, the boy that lived there? i think you told the fbi that he would always get home before his mother and he was very quiet. mrs. sawyer. well, i say i am not certain that he always got home before his mother. i imagine he came home from school, because, as i say, occasionally i met him going up and down the stairway or at the door or something like that, but he was not a boisterous child and undoubtedly he was not an unruly child, because i am sure if he had been and she had scolded him we would have heard it unless it was very low voiced and---- mr. liebeler. and you never did hear any arguments between them or any scolding? mrs. sawyer. no. mr. liebeler. did he seem to be polite? mrs. sawyer. yes; quite polite. i mean, in fact, that was one of the things that impressed me about him, because most kids these days, especially the teenagers, are usually so abrupt. they don't think very much of manners, but, in fact, if i happened to come in and he was out at the doorway, he held the door and closed it after me, or something like that, and i thought it was rather nice, but i never got into any conversations with him, because i make it a point that, outside of my own circle of friends, i don't really care to become friendly with other people, and i think neighbors especially. mr. liebeler. did you know whether he had any friends from school or anyplace come to visit him, people his own age? did you see anyone come and go? mrs. sawyer. i never did, but then, like i say, i am out from o'clock in the morning until maybe : , , or in the evening, and sometimes i get a snack and go back to work again and work until maybe o'clock or so. mr. liebeler. what were you doing at that time? were you working? mrs. sawyer. secretary. mr. liebeler. secretarial work? mrs. sawyer. yes. mr. liebeler. are you employed as a secretary now, too? mrs. sawyer. i do secretarial work or general or anything like that that i am qualified to do. well, anything along those lines. mr. liebeler. are you employed at the present time? mrs. sawyer. yes. mr. liebeler. do you remember the circumstances under which the oswalds left the exchange place apartment? did they tell you where they were going or anything? mrs. sawyer. no; i didn't--i don't recall her saying anything about where she was going particularly. i know one day my husband told me that she was packing furniture or something and preparing to leave, and shortly after that evidently her things were picked up, because when i came back, well, they were gone. mr. liebeler. as far as you can recall, there was nothing peculiar or particularly outstanding about this boy that would call notice to him to distinguish him from other boys his age? mrs. sawyer. really, no; i wouldn't say anything that i can think of, and, as i say, i never came in contact with him long enough or spoke to him, and they were just average people. she just seemed like a very average mother, and i rather imagined in my own mind that she worked and probably did all she could to take care of him as any mother would. about the only thing i remembered about him was the fact that he was rather a nice-looking little boy, and his blond, curly hair. mr. liebeler. do you know of any friends that mrs. oswald had during that time? mrs. sawyer. no; i don't, and, of course, i could venture to say that she probably had friends at the stores where she worked. mr. liebeler. but you didn't know any of them? mrs. sawyer. i didn't know any of them, because i made no contacts. mr. liebeler. i don't think i have any more questions, mrs. sawyer. if you can think of anything else that you want to add or anything that you think we ought to know, that we haven't asked you about, or if you can remember anything else about the oswalds that we haven't covered---- mrs. sawyer. no; well, about the only thing i can tell you is that apparently she was a very kindly person, because the day that we moved into the place, when we had so many books and things to take up, and it was rather a struggle and stairs to climb, and i guess we might have been pretty tired--well, she came out of her doorway and brought coffee to both of us right there on the stairway, and that was the first contact we had with her that we had ever seen her, and---- mr. liebeler. she seemed to be friendly? mrs. sawyer. she seemed to be a pleasant person, a friendly person, but i would say very average, i would think. she seemed to be well spoken, i would say average education, possibly not college or anything like that. i was really quite amazed at such a thing happening to this little boy, because, as i said, my picture of him, my mental picture i did remember seemed to be such a pleasant one that something like that came as pretty much of a shock that a child who seemed to be so nice would be involved in anything like that. mr. liebeler. did he ever talk about politics with you, or did you ever hear him talking about politics to anybody? mrs. sawyer. no, no; because, as i said, i never met him any more than just saying good morning--and he did say that--or good evening or something like that, but i never engaged in any conversations with him at all. i considered him just a child, and i would hardly think at years old he would have engaged in political talk, or else he would have been quite---- mr. liebeler. precocious? mrs. sawyer. true. mr. liebeler. well, if you don't have anything else that you can think of, i have no more questions. we want to thank you very much for coming over. mrs. sawyer. well, you are quite welcome. mr. liebeler. and for waiting until we got to you, both for myself personally, and the commission through me expresses its thanks for the cooperation that you have given us. mrs. sawyer. well, you are quite welcome. i am sorry that all i know is so vague and such a little bit. testimony of mrs. anne boudreaux the testimony of mrs. anne boudreaux was taken on april , , at the old civil courts building, royal and conti streets, new orleans, la., by mr. albert e. jenner, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. mrs. anne boudreaux, pauline street, new orleans, la., after first being duly sworn, testified as follows: mr. jenner. you are mrs. anne boudreaux, is that right? mrs. boudreaux. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and your husband's name is edward? mrs. boudreaux. that's right. mr. jenner. mrs. boudreaux, you received a letter from the general counsel of the commission, did you not? mrs. boudreaux. yes, i did. mr. jenner. in which was enclosed a copy of senate joint resolution , which authorized the creation of the commission to investigate the assassination of president john fitzgerald kennedy, is that right? mrs. boudreaux. yes; i have the letter with me. mr. jenner. and the order of lyndon b. johnson, the president of the united states, bringing the commission into existence and fixing its powers and duties? mrs. boudreaux. yes. mr. jenner. and a copy of our rules and regulations under which we take testimony before the commission and also by way of deposition, such as this one? mrs. boudreaux. yes, sir. mr. jenner. all right. i therefore take it you understand from those documents that the commission was authorized and appointed to investigate all the facts and circumstances surrounding the assassination of president john fitzgerald kennedy on the d of november ? mrs. boudreaux. yes. mr. jenner. i am albert e. jenner, jr., member of the legal staff, of the commission, and i would like to inquire of you a little bit to see if you can't give us some information that will help the commission in its investigation. mrs. boudreaux. yes, sir. mr. jenner. we are seeking to elicit from those who came into contact with lee harvey oswald and his brothers and his mother and others, information that may be helpful to the commission in its work, and the commission very much appreciates your coming down here today, because these are always a little inconvenient, of course. mrs. boudreaux. yes, sir. mr. jenner. all right. now, mrs. boudreaux, you live at pauline street, is that right? mrs. boudreaux. yes, sir. mr. jenner. how long have you lived at pauline? mrs. boudreaux. since --no, i beg your pardon, ; since june , . mr. jenner. , rather than ? mrs. boudreaux. yes, that's right. i wasn't thinking right. mr. jenner. by the way, are you a native of this part of the country? mrs. boudreaux. yes, i am. mr. jenner. you were born here and reared here? mrs. boudreaux. i was born in louisiana, yes. mr. jenner. and your husband? mrs. boudreaux. my husband too. mr. jenner. and you have a family? mrs. boudreaux. yes, i do. mr. jenner. how many children? mrs. boudreaux. i have five children. mr. jenner. what are their ages, mrs. boudreaux? mrs. boudreaux. , , two 's, and one . mr. jenner. two 's? mrs. boudreaux. that's right. mr. jenner. now, who was the previous occupant of your home, if you know? mrs. boudreaux. mrs. oswald. mr. jenner. that's mrs. marguerite oswald? mrs. boudreaux. yes, marguerite oswald. mr. jenner. did you become acquainted with her? mrs. boudreaux. no, i did not. mr. jenner. you did not? mrs. boudreaux. no, sir. mr. jenner. do you know to where she moved when you took over that house? mrs. boudreaux. no, i do not. mr. jenner. that home is a single family dwelling, is it not? mrs. boudreaux. it's a double house. mr. jenner. a double house? mrs. boudreaux. yes, sir. mr. jenner. is that up and down, or side by side? mrs. boudreaux. two sides. mr. jenner. side by side with a common party wall, i suppose? mrs. boudreaux. yes, sir. mr. jenner. who occupies the other house? mrs. boudreaux. on the other side? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. boudreaux. it's a mr. russo. mr. jenner. mr. russo? mrs. boudreaux. him and his wife, but they were living there when i moved in. mr. jenner. when you moved in? mrs. boudreaux. yes, sir; they were there already. mr. jenner. did you learn of any particular circumstances which brought about or played a part in mrs. oswald's leaving those premises? mrs. boudreaux. no; i didn't. i didn't hear anything like that. mr. jenner. did you become acquainted with someone who in turn had some experiences with lee oswald? mrs. boudreaux. yes, sir; like i told the detective that came to see me, that was mrs. roach; she's dead now. mr. jenner. mrs. roach? mrs. boudreaux. yes. mr. jenner. where did she live? mrs. boudreaux. she lived with them for about weeks. she was their babysitter. mr. jenner. oh, babysitter for mrs. oswald? mrs. boudreaux. yes, sir; for the baby. mr. jenner. she baby-sat for lee oswald then, is that right? mrs. boudreaux. yes. mr. jenner. did she live in that neighborhood? mrs. boudreaux. yes. she used to live on lesseps street. mr. jenner. that is where with respect to your home; about how far away? mrs. boudreaux. well, about blocks, i guess. it's right about a block from the port of embarkation. mr. jenner. and she would come over and babysit for lee, is that right? mrs. boudreaux. well, she stayed with mrs. oswald for weeks. mr. jenner. she actually moved into the home? mrs. boudreaux. yes, for weeks she moved in. mr. jenner. when was that? mrs. boudreaux. well, that was right before mrs. oswald moved out, and i moved in. mr. jenner. shortly before that? mrs. boudreaux. yes, it wasn't long before that. in fact, it was through her that i knew the house was going to be empty. mr. jenner. through mrs. roach? mrs. boudreaux. yes. mr. jenner. you had been acquainted with her for some time? mrs. boudreaux. mrs. roach? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. boudreaux. oh, yes. i had known mrs. roach since i was a little bitty girl. she was in the oswald home either in the early part of june or the latter part of may . mr. jenner. she was? mrs. boudreaux. yes. mr. jenner. did you have some conversations with her at the time with respect to lee's conduct? mrs. boudreaux. who, mrs. roach? mr. jenner. yes; with respect to lee's conduct while she was babysitting? mrs. boudreaux. yes; she usually talked about things like that, you know, and she said the reason why she had to leave was because he was bad, and he wouldn't listen, and things like that. mr. jenner. the reason why mrs. roach had to leave? mrs. boudreaux. yes, sir; she said she just couldn't take it any more. mr. jenner. lee then would have been about - / years old, is that right? mrs. boudreaux. yes. mr. jenner. a little more than that? mrs. boudreaux. yes. she said she just couldn't take it any longer. mr. jenner. tell me as best you can what mrs. roach recalled in that conversation with you. mrs. boudreaux. well, she said he wouldn't listen, and he was bad. she said he had a little toy gun, and he threw it at her and broke the chandelier in the bedroom, and things like that. mr. jenner. of course, at that age he wouldn't know whether it was a gun or not, or what a gun was, would he? mrs. boudreaux. no, but you know, she said it was just a little toy gun, but he threw it at her when he got mad, and she had an awful time with him. mr. jenner. she thought he exhibited fits of temper? mrs. boudreaux. yes. she said he was a, i mean, a bad child; that's what she said. mr. jenner. did she say anything about the other two boys. mrs. boudreaux. no, she didn't. in fact, i didn't even know about the other boys until the man told me who he was. i didn't know she had other boys. mr. jenner. that man who told you that, was he from the fbi or the secret service? mrs. boudreaux. yes; he came out three times to see me. mr. jenner. when you moved into that home, what was the reputation in the neighborhood or community with respect to mrs. oswald? mrs. boudreaux. well, nobody ever talked about her. you know, neighbors sort of keep to themselves. i mean, that's a neighborhood that whoever moves in they keep to themselves. they don't make up to you too quickly, i mean. mr. jenner. but as far as the general reputation is concerned, what was her reputation for truth and veracity, for example? mrs. boudreaux. well, they have never spoken about that, at least to me, i mean, the neighbors. mr. jenner. you never heard anything bad about her? mrs. boudreaux. no, i never did, and as far as her being a good mother to her children, well, i have never heard anything other than good. i have never heard anything spoken about her. mr. jenner. when her son lee was - / years old, was she working at that time? mrs. boudreaux. i think she was. mr. jenner. is that why she had to have a babysitter. mrs. boudreaux. yes; that's why she had had the babysitter. i mean, the lady that could tell you all about that, she's dead--mrs. roach. she's deceased. she could have told you a lot more about all that. mr. jenner. what did you learn as to how long she had been living there? mrs. boudreaux. well, i don't know how long she had been living there when i moved in. mr. jenner. where is pauline street with respect to bartholomew? mrs. boudreaux. that would be about blocks, i would say, from where i live. mr. jenner. from bartholomew to where you live would be about blocks? mrs. boudreaux. yes. mr. jenner. did you learn that she lived at one time at bartholomew? mrs. boudreaux. no; i didn't. i don't know where she lived after she left there. mr. jenner. were these rented homes, or could you purchase them? mrs. boudreaux. the one where i was living? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. boudreaux. they were rented, but now i own my home. mr. jenner. but they were being rented at that time? mrs. boudreaux. yes. mr. jenner. the former landlady, is she alive? mrs. boudreaux. no; she's not. mrs. jenner. she's dead? mrs. boudreaux. yes; she's dead. mr. jenner. until this tragic event occurred last fall, had you heard of any of the oswalds from the time they moved away? mrs. boudreaux. no; i didn't know until the fbi man told me--until he got to questioning me, that it was the boy who lived in that house. i didn't realize that until he told me. the only other contact i had--i don't know if it's important or not---- mr. jenner. well, you let us decide what is important and what isn't. we want to get all the information we can possibly get as to the facts and circumstances surrounding this matter; so you go right ahead. mrs. boudreaux. well, i bought the boy's baby bed, and i gave mrs. roach the money to pay for it, and she left the bed in the house, and then they never came back for the money, i don't think. mr. jenner. in advance of moving in, you purchased their baby bed? mrs. boudreaux. yes; i bought the bed, which i still have, and i raised all my children with it. mr. jenner. is that right? mrs. boudreaux. yes; i raised my five children with it, and i intend to give it to them even though this happened. like i say, it wasn't concerning them at all. mr. jenner. now, these depositions will be written up by the court reporter, and you have the privilege, if you wish, of reading your deposition and signing it, but you can waive that if you want so as to avoid the inconvenience of coming down here again, but if you wish to read it and sign it, that's your privilege. if you decide to waive the reading and signing of the deposition, the court reporter will transcribe it, and it will be sent by the u.s. attorney to washington to be read by the members of the commission conducting this investigation. mrs. boudreaux. i don't need to sign it. all i was saying was the truth, and that's all i can do. mr. jenner. then i take it you would just as soon waive the necessity of reading and signing the deposition? mrs. boudreaux. yes, sir. mr. jenner. very well; thank you very much for appearing here voluntarily and giving us your statement. testimony of mrs. viola peterman the testimony of mrs. viola peterman was taken on april , , at the old civil courts building, royal and conti streets, new orleans, la., by mr. albert e. jenner, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. mrs. viola peterman, bartholomew street, new orleans, la., after first being duly sworn, testified as follows: mr. jenner. this is mrs. mildred peterman, is that right? mrs. peterman. no; that's milfred. mr. jenner. milfred? mrs. peterman. yes; that's m-i-l-f-r-e-d. that's my husband's name. mr. jenner. it's mrs. milfred peterman? mrs. peterman. that's correct. mr. jenner. what is your given name, mrs. peterman? mrs. peterman. viola. mr. jenner. is that v-i-o-l-a? mrs. peterman. yes. mr. jenner. you received a letter recently from mr. rankin; is that correct? mrs. peterman. yes, sir. mr. jenner. the general counsel of the warren commission? mrs. peterman. yes. mr. jenner. there was enclosed with the letter three documents, weren't there? mrs. peterman. yes. mr. jenner. one was the senate joint resolution authorizing the creation of the presidential commission to investigate the assassination of president john fitzgerald kennedy; another was the executive order of president johnson appointing that commission and fixing its powers and its duties, and the other was a copy of the rules and regulations under which we take depositions, such as this one, and have testimony before the commission; is that right? mrs. peterman. yes, sir. mr. jenner. do you understand from those documents, mrs. peterman, that the commission is directed by the president to investigate the facts and circumstances surrounding the assassination of president kennedy? mrs. peterman. yes, sir. mr. jenner. in that connection, we of the commission's legal staff, in addition to presenting evidence before the commission itself, are deposing various people around the country whose lives came into contact with lee harvey oswald and with other individuals involved, or possibly involved, in the assassination, and we understand that you have some information that might be helpful to us; is that right, mrs. peterman? mrs. peterman. well, i can only tell you what i know. mr. jenner. that's all we ask, mrs. peterman. first, let me ask, are you a native of this part of the country? mrs. peterman. yes; new orleans, la. mr. jenner. you were born here? mrs. peterman. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and was your husband likewise born here? mrs. peterman. yes. mr. jenner. and what is his business or occupation? mrs. peterman. well, he's retired now. he was taking care of the building and things over at lsu, but he retired last year. mr. jenner. he retired last year? mrs. peterman. yes; since march last year. mr. jenner. now, i understand you were acquainted with marguerite oswald, mother of lee oswald; is that right? mrs. peterman. yes; she lived right next door to me, at bartholomew. i live at bartholomew, but, gee, that was years ago that they lived there. mr. jenner. she lived at bartholomew, right next door to you? mrs. peterman. yes. mr. jenner. how long have you lived at bartholomew, mrs. peterman? mrs. peterman. well, let's see--i moved there in ; that's been years ago that i moved there. mr. jenner. was she already living there when you moved there? mrs. peterman. yes; she was there, i would say, well, it couldn't have been more than a month before we moved there, because both of the houses was sold at the same time, but we bought ours after she did, because she was in there first. mr. jenner. were these relatively new houses? mrs. peterman. no; they were old places. mr. jenner. they had been lived in before? mrs. peterman. oh, yes. mr. jenner. when you say you lived next door to each other, was that across the street from each other, or right next door, on the same side of the street? mrs. peterman. right next door. there were three single homes on two lots, you see. mr. jenner. three single-family dwellings on two lots? mrs. peterman. yes; on two city lots. mr. jenner. are they identical houses? mrs. peterman. well, they were when we bought them, but everybody fixed theirs up different, you see. mr. jenner. describe those houses for me. mrs. peterman. what do you mean? mr. jenner. were they four-room, five-room, or six-room dwellings, and so forth--give me just a general idea of how they were composed, and how large. mrs. peterman. well, they had four rooms and a bath is all; just straight houses. mr. jenner. four rooms and a bath? mrs. peterman. yes, sir. mr. jenner. of what construction; wood? mrs. peterman. wood; yes. mr. jenner. did you have any children, mrs. peterman? mrs. peterman. i had four children. mr. jenner. what were their ages around that time? mrs. peterman. when she moved there and we moved there; right around that time, you mean? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. peterman. well, let's see; my oldest girl was ; my boy was ; my next girl was ; and the other one was . mr. jenner. your eldest child was a boy or girl? mrs. peterman. a girl. mr. jenner. and her present name? mrs. peterman. she's a herrmann now. she married felix herrmann. mr. jenner. how do you spell that--herrmann? mrs. peterman. i think it's h-e-r-r-m-a-n-n. mr. jenner. what's her first name? mrs. peterman. marian is her first name. mr. jenner. does she still live in new orleans? mrs. peterman. well, she lives down in chalmette. mr. jenner. is that near here? mrs. peterman. that's down in st. bernard; below, in st. bernard. mr. jenner. is that a city? mrs. peterman. what, chalmette? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. peterman. i wouldn't call it a city; it's a different part of st. bernard. mr. jenner. but it's in the vicinity of new orleans? mrs. peterman. yes, sir. mr. jenner. she's now what; ? mrs. peterman. no; she's going to be , i think; i am pretty sure she will be . mr. jenner. was she living at home at that time? mrs. peterman. you mean when marguerite was living next door to us? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. peterman. yes; she was. mr. jenner. your next was then years old; is that right? mrs. peterman. yes. mr. jenner. was that a boy or girl? mrs. peterman. boy. mr. jenner. his name? mrs. peterman. emile. mr. jenner. where does he live now? mrs. peterman. he lives, i think it's st. claude court. mr. jenner. st. claude court? mrs. peterman. yes; that's right. mr. jenner. is that in new orleans? mrs. peterman. yes, sir. mr. jenner. then your next was a -year-old; right? mrs. peterman. yes, sir. mr. jenner. what was her name? mrs. peterman. myra; another girl. mr. jenner. myra? mrs. peterman. yes. mr. jenner. myra is now married; is that right? mrs. peterman. yes, sir. mr. jenner. what's her married name? mrs. peterman. davis. mr. jenner. what's the name of her husband? mrs. peterman. eddie. mr. jenner. edward? mrs. peterman. no, eddie; e-d-d-i-e is how they spell it. mr. jenner. does he work here? mrs. peterman. yes; at public service. mr. jenner. where do they live? mrs. peterman. they live on cedar avenue-- cedar avenue, in metairie. mr. jenner. metairie? mrs. peterman. yes. mr. jenner. is that part of new orleans? mrs. peterman. yes; that's in jeff parish, but it's part of new orleans. it runs into it, i mean. mr. jenner. all right; and then your youngest? mrs. peterman. let me explain about her. mr. jenner. go right ahead. mrs. peterman. she wasn't really my own. she was my husband's sister's child. i didn't adopt her, but i raised her. the father and mother both died, and i raised her from years old. she went by her own name. mr. jenner. what was that? mrs. peterman. her name was--when she was single, welbrock, but she married, and now it's kushler. mr. jenner. and that's the one that you said was years old at the time? mrs. peterman. yes; at that time, yes. mr. jenner. what was her first name? mrs. peterman. cecelia. mr. jenner. and she's married, and her name is now kushler? mrs. peterman. yes. mr. jenner. and they reside where? mrs. peterman. rabbit street, gentilly. mr. jenner. rabbit street in gentilly? mrs. peterman. yes, sir. mr. jenner. is that a part of new orleans? mrs. peterman. yes; it's the part out by the lake. mr. jenner. which lake? mrs. peterman. lake pontchartrain. mr. jenner. all right; now, emile; how old is he now? mrs. peterman. emile? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. peterman. he will be ; no, . he will be in september. he's right now. mr. jenner. he's now? mrs. peterman. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and myra will be how old? mrs. peterman. she made in february. mr. jenner. and cecelia? mr. peterman. she will be this month--i mean, in may--may . mr. jenner. so at that time, emile, myra and cecelia were attending elementary school, is that right? mrs. peterman. yes. mr. jenner. did they all attend the same school? mrs. peterman. they went to washington, yes. mr. jenner. washington elementary school? mrs. peterman. yes. mr. jenner. where is that? mrs. peterman. st. claude and alvar. mr. jenner. and your son felix; had he graduated from both elementary school and high school at that time? mrs. peterman. who is that? mr. jenner. oh, i'm sorry; your daughter marian. did she graduate from high school? mrs. peterman. no; she went through washington, and then she went to high school weeks or thereabouts. mr. jenner. you became acquainted with marguerite oswald immediately when you moved into those houses, i assume; did you? mrs. peterman. no, i wouldn't say that. she was a person that kept to herself, and i did the same. she must have lived there about years, maybe a little less, but i didn't bother her and she didn't bother me. i had my hands full with my children, and she had three little ones herself, so she had her hands full. we would speak, but that was about all. mr. jenner. but you did become acquainted with her? mrs. peterman. oh, yes; i would say that. mr. jenner. you were aware that she had three children? mrs. peterman. three boys, yes. the oldest one was john pic, because she married his father before she married oswald. she told me that herself, but now whether she was divorced from him or whether he was dead, i don't know. mr. jenner. all right. now, one of her boys was john pic, is that right? mrs. peterman. yes, p-i-c-k. mr. jenner. well, i think it's p-i-c, and her second boy was---- mrs. peterman. robert. mr. jenner. and the third? mrs. peterman. lee. mr. jenner. lee was the third one? mrs. peterman. yes. mr. jenner. now, at this particular time john and robert were about within the age range of your three younger children; that's emile, myra and cecelia; is that right? mrs. peterman. well, they were more around cecelia's age. mr. jenner. around cecelia's age? mrs. peterman. yes, sir. mr. jenner. lee, however, was considerably younger, was he not? mrs. peterman. yes. he must have been not quite months when she moved there, maybe less; that's years ago, you know, and it's hard to recall all of that, to be exact. mr. jenner. that's all right. we want you to just give us the information as you recall it. now, robert was about what age at that time? mrs. peterman. i really couldn't say, but i imagine about or . i really don't know to be exact on that. mr. jenner. and john? mrs. peterman. he must have been at least or , because he was going to school. mr. jenner. so she had lee, who was a baby infant, you might say, is that right? mrs. peterman. yes. mr. jenner. and another child who was not yet of school age, and that would be robert? mrs. peterman. that's right. mr. jenner. and john, her eldest. was john attending washington elementary at that time? mrs. peterman. i am almost sure he did, but i wouldn't swear to that; i am not positive. mr. jenner. so as i get it, during the years that they lived there, robert eventually entered washington elementary school, is that right? mrs. peterman. well, i couldn't say that. in fact, i think she moved before that, because she didn't stay there long. i don't think it was years. mr. jenner. about years maybe? mrs. peterman. maybe along in there; she moved before years, i know. mr. jenner. you say she was inclined to keep to herself most of the time? mrs. peterman. yes, she was. mr. jenner. you didn't regard that as strange, did you? mrs. peterman. no; i am a person like that myself. i don't bother much with the neighbors. mr. jenner. i take it from what you have told me, mrs. peterman, that marguerite oswald was unmarried at the time, that she had just divorced her husband, or been divorced by him, is that right? mrs. peterman. well, the first one i don't know, but the second one was dead. he died and left her a widow. she told me that herself when she moved there. now, her first husband, i didn't know whether he was dead, living, or what. she never mentioned him. mr. jenner. when did you say you moved into that house? mrs. peterman. in . mr. jenner. you moved there in ? mrs. peterman. yes. mr. jenner. all right. well, in any event she was unmarried at that time, is that right? mrs. peterman. yes. mr. jenner. do you know how she supported herself? mrs. peterman. well, at first i don't. i know she told me that she sold her house, where they came from, but how much that was or anything i don't know. she might have had insurance from him; i don't know. then later she opened a little dry goods store. mr. jenner. a dry goods store? mrs. peterman. i won't say a dry goods store--more like a grocery store, i guess you would say--just a small place there in the front room. she sold bread, milk, candy, and things like that. mr. jenner. where was that? mrs. peterman. in her front room. mr. jenner. the front room of her house? mrs. peterman. yes; it was a little grocery store. mr. jenner. would the local city ordinances permit that? mrs. peterman. i don't know about that, but she did operate it for a short time--not too long. finally she gave that up, but as far as i know that was the only money she had coming in at that time. mr. jenner. give me your impression of mrs. oswald, would you please; what kind of person she was. mrs. peterman. well, like i said--i don't know how to explain it, but she was a person who was not overfriendly, and she wasn't no snob either. i can't say that, but i don't know. she was the kind of a person that--i don't know how to say it. i mean, i had no trouble with her, and she was a good mother to her children. mr. jenner. she was? mrs. peterman. that she was, and she would always keep, like i say, to herself. she didn't do much talking, that is, to me; but now whether she did to the other neighbors, i don't know. mr. jenner. you didn't regard her conduct as strange? mrs. peterman. no; nothing like that. like i told you, i am the kind of person who keeps to myself too. i have been right now years in that neighborhood, i--there are some people living around there right now that i couldn't tell you their name. i am always inside. i never go out, you know, but i have nothing to say against her in any kind of way. mr. jenner. she seemed to be industrious and a good mother, is that right? mrs. peterman. yes, sir; she was good to her children, and she kept them all, you know, nice and clean, but i don't know anything about her business at all. mr. jenner. what was your reaction to the two older boys, john and robert? mrs. peterman. well, they were like all kids, i guess, you know, having a good time, but i will say that they were not running like the kids do today. mr. jenner. what do you mean by that? mrs. peterman. i mean children back in those days were not like children are today, and i know, because i have grandchildren now, and they are altogether different now. even lee, he was a good little child, and he didn't do things like the boys do today. that's why i just can't see how this all came about. i can't understand it. we didn't even know anything about it until the man found me, you know. we all thought maybe it was lee, but we just, you know, couldn't believe it. mr. jenner. do you recall the names of any other children in the neighborhood who were about the ages of robert and john? mrs. peterman. no; i don't think so. mr. jenner. would your daughter cecelia still have a recollection of those boys, do you think? mrs. peterman. i doubt it, because she was only then. she was small. my older ones might remember them. mr. jenner. that would be myra and emile? mrs. peterman. yes; myra and emile. mr. jenner. all right. is there anything else that occurs to you that might be helpful to the commission that i haven't asked you about, either because i don't know about it or i have neglected to ask you about it, or anything you might want to contribute? mrs. peterman. no; if there was anything else, i would be glad to tell you about it. like i say, he was such a little bitty fellow, and after she moved away we lost track of them. mr. jenner. after they moved away from there, you never heard of them and you never saw them until this tragic event occurred, is that right? mrs. peterman. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and even then you didn't believe it was them until, as you said, the man found you? mrs. peterman. i really didn't. lee was a good little child, and marguerite took good care of him. mr. jenner. all right. i very much appreciate your coming down with your husband to talk to us. now, these depositions that we are taking will be sent by the u.s. attorney back to washington, and you have the privilege, if you wish, to read over your deposition and to sign it. you don't have to do that unless you wish, but i would appreciate knowing what you prefer to do, because if you wish to read your deposition and to sign it, then we will have to have the reporter write it out promptly and have the u.s. attorney call you in and then you may come down and read your deposition and sign it. mrs. peterman. well, as far as i can; i have told the truth about everything, you know, as much as i remember. like i said, about the ages of the children and all, i am not positive. this was so long ago. mr. jenner. well, i think you were pretty close. mrs. peterman. after years you can't remember like just yesterday, or the day before. mr. jenner. well, all right then, as far as you are concerned, you would just as soon waive the signing of the deposition, is that right? you don't want to read it over and sign it? mrs. peterman. yes, sir; i waive it. mr. jenner. very well, and thank you again for coming down, mrs. peterman. testimony of mrs. myrtle evans the testimony of mrs. myrtle evans was taken on april , , at the old civil courts building, royal and conti streets, new orleans, la., by mr. albert e. jenner, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. mrs. myrtle evans, prytania street, new orleans, la., after first being duly sworn, testified as follows: mr. jenner. you are mrs. myrtle evans, is that right? mrs. evans. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and your husband is julian evans, and he accompanied you here today, is that right? mrs. evans. yes, sir. mr. jenner. he is waiting outside until you complete your deposition? mrs. evans. yes. mr. jenner. mrs. evans, are you a native of new orleans? mrs. evans. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and your husband? mrs. evans. yes; he was born in new york, but he was raised in new orleans. mr. jenner. and you were born here? mrs. evans. yes; i was. mr. jenner. and you have no family, is that right? mrs. evans. that's right. well, i have no immediate family. i have brothers and sisters, but i don't have any children. mr. jenner. all right. are you acquainted with a person named marguerite oswald? mrs. evans. yes; she was a very good friend of mine. mr. jenner. when did you first become acquainted with her? mrs. evans. in about . mr. jenner. about ? mrs. evans. something like that. mr. jenner. she was then about or years old, is that right? mrs. evans. well, i guess that's about right. mr. jenner. she is either or right now. mrs. evans. well, yes; she was about that then, i guess. i had met her between and , about that time. i played cards with her. mr. jenner. what kind of cards? bridge? mrs. evans. we played bridge, yes. mr. jenner. how did you become acquainted with her? mrs. evans. well, through a friend, a mutual friend--hers and mine, and we used to play bridge together. mr. jenner. was she married then? mrs. evans. she was separated from her first husband. mr. jenner. where did she live then, do you know? mrs. evans. i think at that particular time she had a little apartment on north carrollton. i never did visit her residence, so i don't know much about that. at that time she was living with her sister that lived right off of city park, but it seems she had a basement apartment on north carrollton. i don't think she was living there at that particular time. she did move in with her sister later, and from time to time she was with her, but at that particular time i don't think she was. mr. jenner. what's her sister's name? mrs. evans. oh, i forget. mr. jenner. murret? mrs. evans. yes; mrs. murret. mr. jenner. lillian murret? mrs. evans. yes; her first name is lillian; yes, that's right. mr. jenner. did that acquaintance continue for some years? mrs. evans. well, i sort of quit playing cards, and i went and took an accounting course and went back to work, and i had not seen her for a while, and she remarried--to oswald. mr. jenner. you learned of that, did you? mrs. evans. yes; to oswald. mr. jenner. did you see her from time to time in that interim? mrs. evans. well, i wasn't playing cards during that time or anything, but i might have run into her--i imagine i did, on the street, but i lost contact with her, sort of, and then--it was either just before lee's birth or just after his birth; i can't remember; it has been so many years, but i met her on the corner of canal and st. charles. i think that was after lee's birth. i think her husband had died, and i think she had just taken the baby to the doctor, or something. i think she told me they had wanted to have a little girl, but i can't remember all of that just the way it happened, you know. that's been such a long time ago, but i can remember meeting her; i just can't remember though if it was after her husband died, or if she was expecting a baby, or if she was the one that wanted a little girl. i can't remember if that was after the child was born. most likely it was that she hoped they would have a little girl. now, a lot of this was told to me after we became friends again, as to what happened. i didn't attend her husband's funeral or anything, and i didn't start seeing a good deal of her again until--let's see; she finally went to work downtown, and i happened to run into her, or something like that. she was working for, i think, pittsburgh plate glass co., and i was a widow and she was a widow, and we again sort of regained our friendship. mr. jenner. your husband in the meantime had died? mrs. evans. yes; i am married now to mr. evans. mr. jenner. your first husband, was he also a native-born american? mrs. evans. oh, yes; now, i met lee's aunt one day at a card party. mr. jenner. that's mrs. murret? mrs. evans. yes, lillian murret, and i hadn't seen her in years. i am catholic and she is catholic, you see, and so they had this card party or some kind of an affair over at the fontainebleau motel, and a number of ladies were present, and it was for charity, and we played bingo and canasta and things, and she was selling aprons, and so she said, "oh, myrtle, did you hear about lee; he gave up his american citizenship and went to russia, behind the iron curtain," and i said "my god, no," and she said, "yes." well, after that i didn't hear any more about it. i lost contact. mr. jenner. when was this, , ? mrs. evans. well, i would say to years ago, about years ago, because i have been to those affairs, i think, twice since. mr. jenner. was that the first you knew or had become aware of the fact that lee harvey oswald was living in russia? mrs. evans. yes; now, it was undoubtedly in the newspapers and on tv, but i sometimes get to doing a million things, and i don't get a chance to read the newspaper. i just skip it. and if i don't get around to it, i skip the news on tv too, even the late news. so a lot of times i don't know what's going on, but she said, "did you hear about lee?" and i said, "no, what about lee?" and she said, "you didn't see it in the paper? lee has done gone and given up his united states citizenship," and i said, "poor marguerite; that's terrible; i feel so sorry for her." mr. jenner. you knew lee harvey oswald? mrs. evans. yes; i knew him very well. i knew his mother before he was born, and i knew him since he was a little tyke. lillian took care of him for a while, you see. she had two boys, one by her first marriage, and it wasn't her fault that they got a divorce. he didn't want the child, and he wanted her to destroy the child. mr. jenner. when you say she had two boys, you are talking about marguerite oswald, is that right? mrs. evans. yes; marguerite had a terrificly sad life, and she was just a wonderful, gorgeous wife. she married this john pic and had his boy, and he didn't want any children at all, and so she left him and went to live with her sister, and oswald, i think, was a virginia life insurance salesman. he collected insurance from the sister. they lived right off of city park, and so one day margie was strolling with robert in front of city park, and oswald bumped into them, and he asked them how about him riding them home. mr. jenner. what did she say to him? mrs. evans. well, she let him. you see, he had been collecting insurance at the house, and had spoken to margie. mr. jenner. at whose house? mrs. evans. at the murret house, and he had played with the baby. no, let's see, john was the baby at that time, and she was separated or divorced from her husband. i forget which now. but he supported john. mr. jenner. you mean mr. pic supported john? you are talking about john pic now? mrs. evans. yes; he continued to support him and he sent a baby crib, and he did everything like that, but he didn't want to live with her because of the child, so john never did see his father until he was, oh, about years old, or something like that, so that's why those two boys were so close in age, you see, because she met oswald, and he started taking her out. he asked her if she would go out to dinner with him, and she had been away from her husband for a year and a half or years, and so she did, and then she married him, and she had this baby right away, which is robert, and they bought a home out around alvar somewhere. she never told me all this now; some of it i heard from other sources, like her sister and others, but she did tell me a lot of it, because we got to be real good friends. she bought that home, and they had the two boys, and they were very happy, and then one day he was out mowing the lawn, and he had this terrific pain, and she was several months pregnant with lee. she called the doctor right away, but before the doctor could get there, the man was dead. he had a blood clot, so he left her with two babies and one on the way. now, he left her with $ , , i think, in insurance, so she sold her home, and by that time her two boys were old enough, so she put them in this home--evangeline, i think it is, but i'm not sure about that, and she bought a home over on--what's the name of that street back off of st. claude? mr. jenner. bartholomew? mrs. evans. yes; i guess that's it. now, she put the boys in this home. mr. jenner. the bethlehem home? mrs. evans. yes, bethlehem; that's it. that's when i became friendly with her again. she was living with her sister for a while, and lee was with her, and the two older boys were at the home. she was paying her sister board. but now after her husband died, she went to work, and she had a woman taking care of the little boy. mr. jenner. you mean lee? mrs. evans. yes. mr. jenner. why did she live there, do you know? mrs. evans. you mean on bartholomew street? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. evans. well, it was cheaper. she bought a cheaper home. she had lived on alvar after she married oswald. but after oswald's death she moved to bartholomew. wait a minute--i might be getting those streets confused. no, i guess that's right. anyway, when oswald died he left her this $ , in insurance, and now i don't know whether the home was completely paid for or not, but she immediately put these boys in that home and went to work. mr. jenner. is it your information that she immediately went to work rather than try to live for a while without working? mrs. evans. she might have lived for a month or two, or something, without working, because i wasn't in contact with her, you see, but she had got this couple to come and stay with lee, and someone said---- mr. jenner. what couple was that? mrs. evans. i don't know what couple it was--somebody; she had put an ad in the paper or something--some young couple. i don't know their names. she said people told her that when lee was in the high chair, that he used to cry a lot, and they thought they were whipping little lee, so she came home unexpectedly one night, and the child had welts on his legs, and she told them to get out and get out now. so then from there she bought another house and sold that, and--now, this is what she told me; she told me that she bought this little double house, and she ran a sweet shop for a while in the front room there. mr. jenner. she told you that she sold that house and bought a double? mrs. evans. yes, as i recall, she did. mr. jenner. what's a "double"? mrs. evans. that's really two houses, side by side; you have a door here and a door here, two entrances. they call them flats or duplexes some places, but we call them doubles. mr. jenner. o.k. i just wanted to make sure the record is clear on that. mrs. evans. she bought that little house, and they moved in there with her three children. mr. jenner. was that over at pauline street? mrs. evans. well, that sounds like the address. i never went there myself. i don't even know where pauline street is, to tell you the truth. it's downtown some place. then she left there, and lee, i think, still was with the aunt, and the two boys were down at the other place--that home, and she got this job managing the hosiery store on canal street, and that's when i started seeing her again, and that was between and , somewhere in there; around in there--the early 's, i would say. mr. jenner. at that time she was living where now? mrs. evans. she was living with her sister then, i think, and lee was with her, and the two boys were boarding at the bethlehem home. she would go down on sundays to see her two boys. mr. jenner. how long did she remain with her sister? mrs. evans. well, i don't know how long she had been with her sister, but after she took this position, she finally went to texas, and i don't know--i couldn't tell you how long, because i just started seeing her, well, we would see each other on saturday afternoon or sunday, something like that, you know, just go around a bit together. mr. jenner. how old was lee at about that time, about or , or what? mrs. evans. he was or years old then. mr. jenner. he eventually was placed in the bethlehem home also, wasn't he? mrs. evans. well, she might have finally got him in, because her sister, as you know, had a big family of her own, and i think maybe she might have finally put him in there too. you see, they only take them at these places after a certain age, generally about three, i think. they have to be trained and all, and that's why lee was always with her before that, and all her love, i think, she dumped on lee after her husband died. you know, she felt awful sorry for lee, because he never knew his father. he was born after his father died, and he was his baby, and she always sort of felt sorry for lee for that reason, i think, and sort of leaned toward lee. she felt sorry for lee because he never knew his father, i think, just as any mother would. mr. jenner. now, we have information that from sometime in to , she resided on alvar street in new orleans; does that square with your recollection? mrs. evans. well, alvar, that was where she had her home, wasn't it, on alvar? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. evans. i was told it was in that subdivision. mr. jenner. and do you recall her selling that house? mrs. evans. no; she told me she sold it, but i wasn't too friendly with her at the time, and i didn't know anything about that. i was working, and i didn't play cards then, you see. she was a friend of a friend of mine actually, that i played cards with, and i wasn't too friendly with the girl at first, but only through cards, but at the time i was sorry for her when i first learned what her husband had done to her, but later on i lost contact with her all the way up till just about the time she went to texas, or maybe it was about a year before she went to texas. it's hard to recall those dates, to tell what year this happened and what year that happened. mr. jenner. that would have been around , or , somewhere in there? mrs. evans. yes; along in there. mr. jenner. do you recall her living on atlantic avenue in algiers, la.? mrs. evans. atlantic avenue? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. evans. no; i don't. mr. jenner. but you do recall a period when her two older boys, john and robert, were in the bethlehem orphans school? mrs. evans. oh, yes; i went there once with her, in fact. mr. jenner. at that time she was with the murrets, is that right, mrs. evans? mrs. evans. that's right. mr. jenner. then she moved to texas? mrs. evans. yes. mr. jenner. with her children, of course? mrs. evans. that's right. mr. jenner. what occurred about that time? mrs. evans. she married again. mr. jenner. she married, and was that why she moved to texas? mrs. evans. that's why. she married a very, very fine man. mr. jenner. do you recall what his name was? mrs. evans. you know it; i will give it to you--ekdahl. mr. jenner. do you know how to spell that, ekdahl? mrs. evans. i don't remember, but i knew her during that period all right. mr. jenner. did you become acquainted with him, mr. ekdahl? mrs. evans. yes. mr. jenner. what kind of man was he, mrs. evans? mrs. evans. he was very high caliber, a very fine man, and he had a very fine position. the papers said she was dragged from pillar to post, but that wasn't true. it was his work that took them to places. that's why she went to new york, because of his position. he didn't drag her from pillar to post at all. i don't know what happened to them then, because i didn't see them again. he died, and that's when she moved back to new orleans, and they stayed in my apartment building. now, i visited her in dallas, and i knew eddie ekdahl. mr. jenner. did you know mr. ekdahl before he married her? mrs. evans. i did. mr. jenner. that was his second marriage, isn't that right? mrs. evans. yes; so she said. he had been separated from his wife for many years, but had never gotten a divorce, i don't think, so then he did get a divorce and married margie. mr. jenner. do you remember where he was from originally? mrs. evans. boston, i think. mr. jenner. is it your recollection that they moved to dallas, tex.? mrs. evans. they did. mr. jenner. did you visit them in dallas? mrs. evans. i did. mr. jenner. was that address victor? mrs. evans. i don't remember that, because i went there with a friend of mine, to the baker hotel, i think it was. i used to go around with this friend of mine. she was with mary douglas perfumes, and margie was living there with her husband at the time, and the two children, when i visited her. mr. jenner. her husband and her two children? mrs. evans. well, her three children, i mean, were with her. mr. jenner. including lee? mrs. evans. yes; i went and stayed a few days with her, but the address i don't remember. we didn't correspond during those years, but that could have been the address. it was a duplex, i know, and she lived downstairs, and she rented out the upstairs. mr. jenner. at that time lee was around years old, is that right? mrs. evans. yes; just about at the kindergarten stage. let's see--yes, she lived downstairs, and she rented out the upstairs. mr. jenner. when you visited there, were the two boys, john and robert, living at the home? mrs. evans. yes; they all lived together. mr. jenner. and lee, too? mrs. evans. yes. mr. jenner. the nature of mr. ekdahl's work was such that he had to travel, you say? mrs. evans. oh, yes; he had to do a lot of traveling. i think he was a geologist; that's what my husband said he was. he was with some big company that he was top man with, and he was a good deal older than margie, and a very fine, handsome, big man, but he had a blood clot, and that's how they got to be married as quick as they did, because of that. you see, he was at the roosevelt hotel, and he had nobody, and he had this blood clot and everything, and at that time he was taking margie out, and he wasn't too well a man because of this blood clot and all, but he wanted to marry margie, and so she married him, and they went from dallas to, i think, san antonio, and then i think they went to new york, and sometime after that, of course, margie came down here, and she took an apartment with me. mr. jenner. before we get into that, mrs. evans, if you don't mind, let's go back a bit and see if i have this clear in my mind. you say you visited them once in texas, is that right? mrs. evans. yes. mr. jenner. other than that visit, you had no contact with her, that is, visually, in person, while she was in texas? mrs. evans. no; i didn't. now, after she was married to ekdahl and went to covington, she had her other two boys with her. this was in the summertime, of course. she had them in the boarding school over there, even after she married ekdahl, this was. she kept lee with her all the time she was married to ekdahl, of course, so that they would all three be together on these business trips he had to take, and they would stay in the best hotels, of course, and they had the best of everything, but that didn't seem to work out too well, having lee with them all the time like that. mr. jenner. this was when she was married to mr. ekdahl, that she had the boys over at covington? mrs. evans. yes. her two older sons were in boarding school, and in the summer they would all be together over at this place in covington. mr. jenner. was this in ? mrs. evans. well, i don't know just what year that would have been, but i would say it was around there. i don't remember the exact years for a lot of this stuff, but i can just tell you the way i remember it happening. mr. jenner. that's all right. just go on the way you have been. the pieces will all fit together eventually, and that's what the commission wants before it brings this investigation to its conclusion. mrs. evans. i have had so many people pass through my life, it would take something to remember all of those details. mr. jenner. did you see the boys during that period? mrs. evans. oh, yes; she would visit me for about or days, i remember one time, and lee was about years old then. he was a little fellow. mr. jenner. what was your impression of lee as of that time, mrs. evans? mrs. evans. well, i would say lee was a spoiled little boy, because naturally his mother kept him, and i think margie would have had a better life if she had put him in boarding school with the other two boys, because then she would have lived with ekdahl. i understand they were separated and divorced before he died, but you know how a mother can throw her entire life on a child and spoil that child and let the child ruin her life for her, and margie clung to lee regardless, but in that respect she was a wonderful mother. you couldn't find a better woman. of course, when she married ekdahl, she didn't want him to support her children. she tried to support them herself. mr. jenner. that was her own decision? mrs. evans. oh, yes; it was her decision. she wanted ekdahl to take her and lee, and she kept lee with them all the time, and i think that's one of the things that contributed to their divorce. she was too close to lee all the time, and i don't guess ekdahl liked that too much. now, when margie lived in dallas, she kept her three boys with her, but after she married ekdahl, she put the two boys in boarding school, and she still kept lee with them. of course, they had to leave dallas on these trips that mr. ekdahl made in connection with his work, but lee would be with them every time, and like i said, it hurt their marriage because they never could be alone. lee was spoiled. he was just a spoiled boy. i'll put it this way: he was her baby, and she loved him to death, and she spoiled him to death. one of the older boys, or maybe both of them--i don't remember, but i think they both went into the marines---- mr. jenner. well, one of them went into the coast guard. mrs. evans. well, they went into the service, and both of her older boys were very, very fine boys. john pic was a lovely boy, but of course he never did see his father. his father never did care to see the child, the way i understand it, and at i think he quit supporting him, or something like that. now, when margie decided to come back to new orleans, i think she came here from san antonio or fort worth, one of those places, and she went to her sister's---- mr. jenner. would you wait a minute now, ma'am? was marguerite working at that time, either in texas, or did she go to work after she came back to new orleans? mrs. evans. well, she might have tried her hand at real estate at one time, and of course she had worked in different department stores, and at the time i caught up with her and ran into her, i think she said she was working then for the pittsburgh plate glass co. she said she answered a blind ad in the paper, and she got this job, and she opened jean's hoisery shop, and that's when we would meet and go to lunch on a saturday afternoon, and we got to be friendly. mr. jenner. and you were working at that time also? mrs. evans. yes, sir; i was in the government then. i am an accountant, and i was with the government. we would meet, like on thursday evenings and have dinner, and shop around, and on saturday afternoon, usually at those times, and we became pretty friendly again, but then of course she went back to texas. i used to travel with this friend of mine who was with mary douglas perfumes, and she traveled out of california, and she was going to be in dallas for a show--some kind of display show, i guess it was, and i went with her, and during that trip i guess i stayed about a week with margie. mr. jenner. what kind of housekeeper was margie? mrs. evans. a very good housekeeper, very tasty; she could take anything and make something out of it, and something beautiful. she had a lot of natural talent that way, and she was not lazy. she would work with things by the hour for her children, and she kept a very neat house, and she was always so lovely herself. that's why, when i saw her on tv, after all of this happened, she looked so old and haggard, and i said, "that couldn't be margie," but of course it was, but if you had known margie before all this happened, you would see what i mean. she was beautiful. she had beautiful wavy hair. mr. jenner. what about lee? mrs. evans. well, lee was a smart boy. he was no dummy. he was a bit of a bookworm, i would say. mr. jenner. tell me more about that. mrs. evans. well, he had hair like his mother for example, but he was a loner. that's what the children all said, but of course, i didn't pay too much attention to that, but he didn't bring boys in the house, i mean, and he would always seem to prefer being by himself. mr. jenner. he wouldn't bring boys into the house? mrs. evans. no; he never did, that i know of. he would come home, and he would get his books and his music, and then when he wanted supper, or something to eat, he would scream like a bull. he would holler, "maw, where's my supper?" some of the time margie would be downstairs talking to me or something, and when he would holler at her, she would jump up right away and go and get him something to eat. her whole life was wrapped up in that boy, and she spoiled him to death. lee was about about that time, i think, along in there. mr. jenner. was this while he was living with his mother at one of your apartments? mrs. evans. yes, this was the last time i knew anything about lee, when they lived at my apartment. mr. jenner. was this after or before she had gone to new york city? mrs. evans. oh, this was all after her trip to new york. she wasn't with ekdahl any more when she came back here. mr. jenner. i wonder if you would hold that for a minute now. i would like to have you give me your impression of lee up to the time they returned from new york? mrs. evans. well, i couldn't give you too much about the child, because i didn't know him too much. he seemed just like a normal boy. i mean, he didn't seem to be any different than his brothers, as far as that goes, but the way he kept to himself just wasn't normal, i don't think. i guess that's why they called him a loner, because he was alone so much. he didn't seem to want to be with any other children. now, when she was over in covington in the summer months, she would be there the full months, i think, and they seemed to be a very happy family. they would go swimming and eat watermelon, and they had a couple of dogs, i think, in the backyard, and they would just have a good time. i would say they were really a happy family in those days. mr. jenner. they were a happy family? mrs. evans. as far as i could see, they were very happy, very closely knit, very much in love with each other, and these boys knew that their mother was putting them through school, and giving them what they needed, as best she could. she was a very good provider for her children, and a very decent woman. i mean, she wasn't a loose woman at all. she was very decent, a very fine woman. mr. jenner. well, that squares with everything we have found. i don't think any mother could do more than she did for them, as far as we have been able to find out. mrs. evans. that's right. nobody could have done any more for their children than she did, i mean, with what she had to work with. she was never well off, i mean, financially. she always worked and saved and made do the best she could. mr. jenner. when she moved to new york city, did you lose touch with margie then? mrs. evans. yes; i lost complete touch with margie. mr. jenner. did you hear from her while she was in new york? mrs. evans. no; i don't think so. she might have written me a postal card or something, but i don't think so. mr. jenner. then the first time that you again began seeing her was when she came back to new orleans, is that right? mrs. evans. yes. mr. jenner. did you hear from her or hear about her while she was living in texas, before she went to new york? mrs. evans. oh, yes; like i said, i was over there in dallas with her for a week, and i kept pretty well in touch with what she was doing. for a time she lived--what's the name of that little town? mr. jenner. do you mean benbrook? mrs. evans. it could have been that. anyway, i heard from her again, that she was traveling a lot with her husband. she was still living with ekdahl then. they were living in hotels and traveling, and lee was right with them all the time. mr. jenner. she kept lee with her on all these trips with mr. ekdahl? mrs. evans. as far as i know, she did, yes. mr. jenner. as far as you know, did she have lee with her all the time? mrs. evans. i don't think that she ever parted with lee for a minute. if she did, i don't know about it, but when she came back, the way she talked, i figured that lee was with them the whole time, and they had lived in hotels and things like that while mr. ekdahl was traveling. mr. jenner. do you recall when her marriage to ekdahl took place, mrs. evans? mrs. evans. well, it was when she went to texas, just about at that time. mr. jenner. around , would that have been, in maybe ? mrs. evans. along in there; yes. she married him, i think, in dallas, tex., or maybe it was fort worth. i can't recall that for sure. mr. jenner. but he had been here in new orleans, and that's when they struck up this acquaintanceship, here in new orleans, is that right? mrs. evans. that's right. mr. jenner. she said that he had had a heart attack, is that right? mrs. evans. yes; she did. mr. jenner. and he was courting her during this time? mrs. evans. yes, sir. mr. jenner. his sister came down from boston, is that right, to sort of see how he was getting along here, is that correct? mrs. evans. that's right. i guess that's what prompted her to come down here, because he had had this trouble, and i guess she was concerned about him. mr. jenner. and that courtship between him and marguerite ripened into marriage then; is that right? mrs. evans. yes. mr. jenner. did ekdahl's sister approve of marguerite? mrs. evans. oh, yes; she wanted her to marry ekdahl, and before she went back to boston, margie made her a promise that she would look after him. mr. jenner. then margie moved to texas with mr. ekdahl; is that right? mrs. evans. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and you say you visited them over there, in dallas; is that right? mrs. evans. yes, sir; i did. mr. jenner. and you think you might have heard from her at different times when she was traveling with her husband? mrs. evans. that's right--you know, postal cards and such. mr. jenner. and then you didn't hear from her for a while; is that right? mrs. evans. that's right. mr. jenner. and then you said you heard from her again? mrs. evans. yes. mr. jenner. would you give me the circumstances of that now, please? mrs. evans. well, she called me, most likely. she was at her sister's. she was looking for an apartment. mr. jenner. excuse me, but when you say "her sister's," who do you mean? mrs. evans. lillian murret. she had only that one sister here. she was a good many years older than margie. margie was the baby of the family. she took care of her father, that is, until his death, and she kept house for her father, too. i guess there is about years difference between the two. that's why i guess they have not been too close. but anyway, she called me and asked about an apartment, and i told her i could give her an apartment, and that i would let her have it cheaper than i would somebody else that i didn't know. now, they didn't have any furniture, but there were a few pieces left in the apartment, and her sister provided some things and i found a few things for her, so she made out with that. mr. jenner. do you remember what year that was? mrs. evans. well, i remodeled that apartment about years ago, so i would say that that was around , along in there, in the early spring, i think it was. mr. jenner. in the early spring? mrs. evans. well, it might have been a little later. it could have been in may or june of , but possibly a little earlier than that. i can't remember that well enough to be definite on the month. mr. jenner. where was this apartment? mrs. evans. st. mary street, apartment , but now finally margie decided that she couldn't afford that apartment, and moved, despite the fact that i was renting it to her for less than i would have anybody else, and i told her that. she came in one day and told me, "myrtle, i am going to give the apartment up." she told me that she had seen a house out around st. bernard that would be cheaper. she said she had rode around and looked at the house, and she thought that she would take it. mr. jenner. she had an automobile? mrs. evans. no; she rode the bus out there. mr. jenner. she had no complaints about your apartment, did she? she just had found a cheaper place to move to? mrs. evans. oh, she was perfectly happy in the apartment. she said she liked it, but that she just couldn't afford it. mr. jenner. who else was in the apartment besides marguerite? mrs. evans. just her and lee. mr. jenner. you did see lee after they returned from new york? mrs. evans. oh, yes; they lived at my house for, oh, i guess about months. mr. jenner. including lee? mrs. evans. oh, yes. mr. jenner. she and lee lived in your home for months? mrs. evans. in this apartment, yes. mr. jenner. in the no. apartment? mrs. evans. yes; you see, i had this great big house with about rooms or more. mr. jenner. it was just one big building; is that right? mrs. evans. yes; but it was converted into modern apartments, and they took one of them, you see--one of the smaller apartments. i had had one tenant prior to her, so she was the second tenant in this little apartment. mr. jenner. and that was at st. mary street? mrs. evans. correct. mr. jenner. so she and her son lee occupied that apartment for approximately months, is that right? mrs. evans. yes. mr. jenner. and that was in , you say? mrs. evans. yes; maybe not exactly that year, but along about there. mr. jenner. did you get to see both of them frequently? mrs. evans. practically every day. mr. jenner. all right. now, tell me about this period while they lived at your home. just transport yourself back to years ago. what did lee oswald look like? mrs. evans. what did he look like? mr. jenner. yes; and what did he do? what impression did he make on you then, not what you heard, but what you remember now about him? mrs. evans. well, he was more spoiled. mr. jenner. more than before? mrs. evans. yes; he had gotten older, and he wanted his way, and he was a teenager then, and like all teenagers, he was very difficult. of course, i guess all teenagers are that way, because they are not yet grown and they are not a child either. the best of them are very trying, and it is hard to keep them in line. in that respect lee wasn't any different than any other teenaged boy, i guess. mr. jenner. now, this was the period after which lee returned from new york; is that right? mrs. evans. yes; after they came here from new york. mr. jenner. with his mother? mrs. evans. yes. mr. jenner. what did they say to you as to why they returned from new york and came to new orleans? mrs. evans. well, i don't know that they said anything, but it seems to me now that they came right from texas over to new orleans then, not right from new york. i could be mistaken there, but i think they went back to texas from new york. maybe they did come right from new york, but i can't remember that far back. i know that they had divorced, and although no one told me, i just put two and two together, and it was my opinion that lee evidently was just so spoiled and demanded so much of his mother's attention that they didn't get along--i mean, her and ekdahl, because of lee. now, that's my opinion. she never told me why. mr. jenner. that's just your surmise? mrs. evans. yes, sir; i can't help feeling that if she had put lee in a boarding school, she might have hung onto her meal ticket, and considering mr. ekdahl's condition and everything, if all that hadn't happened, she would have been sitting on top of the world. she wouldn't have had another worry in her life, as far as money goes, but instead her children came first, i mean, lee. she just poured out all her love on him, it seemed like. mr. jenner. did she ever say anything to you about her experiences in new york city? mrs. evans. no. mr. jenner. she never said anything to you that would have given you an indication as to whether she had come from new york rather than texas, or vice versa? mrs. evans. no; not that i recall, but it is my distinct feeling that she stayed in new york awhile and then moved to texas again, and then over to new orleans--fort worth, i think, but i can't say that for sure. mr. jenner. did she say anything to you about any trouble that lee had had in school in new york city? mrs. evans. no; she never did. but i knew ekdahl, and i knew he was a man that was set in his ways. he was older than margie, and he wanted, evidently, a wife. he wanted her to be with him evidently, and if you've got a kid dragging behind, you know it makes a difference, but now whether that caused the break or not, i don't know. i couldn't tell you that. mr. jenner. the point i am getting at is, she didn't say anything to you about any problem or difficulties she had had with lee in new york city? mrs. evans. none whatever. mr. jenner. you were aware that she had been in new york city, of course? mrs. evans. yes. mr. jenner. but she didn't say anything to you about it? mrs. evans. no. mr. jenner. now, at that time lee was about years old; is that right? mrs. evans. he was, somewhere around there--maybe or . i don't know exactly. mr. jenner. at any rate, you had a period here of several years between the time you saw him and he lived in your apartment with his mother, and the time you had previously seen him, so could you compare what he was like and how he acted when you saw him in , as against when you had seen him before that? mrs. evans. well, like i said, he was more spoiled than he was when he was younger. he was just a little boy when i first saw him, and this time he was quite grown up, a teenager, like i said, so i would say he was a lot more difficult this time to understand or control than he was when he was younger. the main thing that seems to stand out in his conduct was the way he demanded to be fed when he would come from school. margie would be downstairs maybe, talking to me or something, and he would come to the head of the stairs and yell for her to come up and fix him something to eat. he would just stand up there and yell, "maw, how about fixing me something to eat?" and she would jump up right away and go running upstairs to get something for him. now, he liked records. he didn't want to see any television, but he would lock himself up in his bedroom sometimes and play these records, and listen to the radio, and read. he was a hard one to try to figure out. but other than that, he was, i would say, just an average, spoiled teenage kid that wanted what he wanted. there are very few of them that aren't that way. mr. jenner. would you say he was more spoiled than the average teenager? mrs. evans. well, he was spoiled maybe more because he didn't have a father to pull him down a bit. when you are raising a child alone, it's a hard row--i mean, with just the mother, because, you know, they are getting bigger all the time, and a woman can't keep control over them like a man can. mr. jenner. you mean physically? mrs. evans. yes; physically. mr. jenner. did she register him in school here in new orleans when they came to live in your apartment? mrs. evans. well, i don't know who registered him. that i don't know. mr. jenner. but he did go to school? mrs. evans. oh, yes; he went to school. mr. jenner. which school was that? mrs. evans. that was beauregard, and i might say that she used her sister's address so she could get him in that school. it's a good school, and she wanted him to go there, and also at that time i believe she was living with her sister, so that was in that school district. that's the way i understand it anyway. i think there has been some confusion about that address that was given at the school, but it is my understanding that that's why she used it. if she hadn't used her sister's address, he couldn't have gone to beauregard probably, i mean, if she had moved to another district. so since she wanted him in beauregard, that was the easiest way to do it. mr. jenner. in order to get him in beauregard, she used her sister's address, and that was the reason, as you understand it; is that right? mrs. evans. yes; that was a good school. i guess it still is, but she wanted him in there. otherwise he would have had to go to another school. mr. jenner. that's beauregard junior high school; is that right? mrs. evans. yes; and, like i said, a good school; a very fine school. mr. jenner. was lee a good student, according to information you received in that regard, if you did receive any such information? mrs. evans. well, i never saw his report cards, but i think he was a pretty good student. i really couldn't tell you that. mr. jenner. did you notice during this period that you had this recent, close acquaintanceship with him, that he was still retiring, and that he was inclined to be by himself? mrs. evans. yes; he liked books, and he liked music, and he would come home from school, of course, a couple of hours before margie, and he would have crossword puzzles and books and music, and he seemed to entertain himself very well. mr. jenner. he didn't go out and play with the other children? mrs. evans. no; he didn't. mr. jenner. now, they had this change in from to st. mary. was that in the same building? mrs. evans. yes. mr. jenner. was that a different apartment, then? mrs. evans. i will tell you what happened there. there was this young couple that wanted that apartment, and i still hear from them. she sold them her furniture. they were the tenants after her, and she sold them some of the things in the apartment, because at that time she told me she was going to take this house way up on the other side of town, and she came back the next day and told me that she changed her mind and wanted her apartment back, but i told her that i had already rented her apartment to this young couple. i said, "margie, what happened to the house you were going to get?" and she said, "i looked it over," and she said, "it's too far from a grocery store. i have no way of getting my groceries; too many blocks to walk, and it's too inconvenient." i told her, "well, i've already rented the apartment to this young couple," and she said, "i want to keep my apartment," and i said, "but, margie, i have rented the apartment already, and you even sold them some furniture," and she said, "well, they can have the furniture," but she said, "just tell them you can't let them have the apartment; that i have got to keep it." well, that was how we sort of fell out, was over this deal. i told her, i said, "margie, i just can't do that." to tell you the truth, the way lee was acting up and all--he was very noisy, i didn't particularly want to do it. i knew, in the first place, that the girl simply couldn't afford it, and it would be just a matter of months until she would be behind in her rent and everything. i think she was already about a month in arrears on the rent, and i just figured it would be better if i didn't give her the apartment back, so i told her that i couldn't do it, because i had already rented it to this couple. i knew that, even if she could pay the rent for that month, it would be just a matter of time until she couldn't make it, and she would be struggling all the time and trying to make it, and it would maybe be more hard feelings if i let it go on that way, so i decided that it would be better to let it go the way it was going. it seemed to be the best way out of it. i thought we would be better friends maybe if they would go ahead and move now, rather than later, so i told her, i said, "margie, if you want, you can move next door, and it will be a little cheaper," and so, they did move next door. now, i had told her that i was going to fix up that little apartment she had occupied, just to sort of let her down easy--you know, have it painted, and so forth, so she went ahead and moved next door for a while. mr. jenner. was that st. mary; this place next door? mrs. evans. yes; right next door. you see--i think i have skipped something. i told her that i wanted to get the apartment that she had been in fixed up, and that's how i talked her into taking the place next door, but then she started complaining and saying i was charging her too much rent for this place next door, and i wasn't getting the apartment fixed up that she had been in, and in the meantime lee had gotten to the point where he was noisier and more determined with his mother, and it was getting a little unbearable. mr. jenner. what do you mean, he was getting "more determined?" in what respects was he more determined? mrs. evans. well, he would yell, "maw, come and fix my supper," and he had a loud voice, and i could hear him more and more up there, and it got to be quite disturbing, actually. it seemed to be a situation that was getting worse all the time; so i thought maybe it would be better if i didn't have them around; so, since the apartment wasn't fixed up anyway, and she wasn't very happy next door, she up and moved, and that's when she went to exchange alley. mr. jenner. o.k. that was in april of ; is that right? mrs. evans. yes, and i never saw her after that. mr. jenner. you never saw her again? mrs. evans. no; i didn't. mr. jenner. you didn't see her at exchange alley? mrs. evans. no. mr. jenner. she never came to visit you? mrs. evans. no; she was angry about the apartment, because i made her give it up. i mean i wouldn't give it back to her after she moved away. i don't think she ever got over that. mr. jenner. she didn't come to visit you any more at all? mrs. evans. no; she didn't. mr. jenner. she didn't get in touch with you at all? mrs. evans. no. mr. jenner. when was the next time you heard from or heard about, margie or lee? mrs. evans. the next thing i heard, they had moved back to texas. they had left town. mr. jenner. where did you hear that? mrs. evans. well, her sister, lillian, i saw her in holmes or--let's see, maybe it was at the fontainbleau, at a card party we were having--yes; i think that was it; she asked me if i had seen margie, and i said, "no; i haven't seen or heard from margie," and that's when she told me that she had heard margie had moved back to texas. i didn't know that at all. i had heard from several people that they had seen margie downtown. she worked at three or four different places--you know, hosiery, and so forth, and someone would run into me every once in a while that i knew, and would say they had seen margie downtown at some store or other, but i didn't see her, and then the next thing i knew she was supposed to be back in texas, and then i ran into lillian again later and she told me--this was at the fontainbleau. now, i have that straight. she told me then about the trouble lee was in. mr. jenner. where did you run into lillian at that time? mrs. evans. at a benefit card party. mr. jenner. at the fontainbleau? mrs. evans. that's right. mr. jenner. and what did lillian tell you about lee on that occasion? mrs. evans. she told me that lee was in russia. mr. jenner. that lee had defected to russia? mrs. evans. that's right. mr. jenner. then, when was the next thing you heard about any of the oswald family? mrs. evans. well, that was when lee came to town, and they took an apartment up on magazine street. i can't remember that date now, but lee got here a day or two before his wife came in. mr. jenner. would that have been in may of ? mrs. evans. well, i don't remember the date, but it seems like it was about the middle of may; maybe about may , or somewhere close to that. mr. jenner. was that when he took the apartment at magazine street? mrs. evans. yes. was that may ? mr. jenner. no; i think it was a little earlier than that, according to our information. mrs. evans. well, whatever date that was, that was the next time i saw him. i don't know if it was april or may, or even march; i don't know what date it was, but i got the apartment for him, and he moved in on the day he rented it, or the next day, i think. mr. jenner. he moved in on the th; would that be about right; the day after he rented the apartment? mrs. evans. well, if he rented it on the th, then that would be about right. he moved in the day after, i think it was. mr. jenner. on the th of may? mrs. evans. i guess so; yes. that's when i saw him, on the th of may, and then he moved in on the th. mr. jenner. tell me the circumstances that led to his renting that apartment, mrs. evans. mrs. evans. well, the doorbell rang, and my husband hadn't gone to work. he says he recognized him then, but i don't remember it that way, but anyway this young man was at the door, and he said he wanted an apartment, and did i have an apartment to rent, and i didn't have anything in this building, but i told him about another building i was fixing up, and i told him i might be able to find something for him, and he told me he had a wife and child over in texas, and that he was going to bring them over here as soon as he could find an apartment, and that he had to find something right now. he said, "i want something right away." when we were walking down the steps, i looked at him real hardlike, and i didn't recognize him, but something made me ask him, "i know you, don't i?" and he said, "sure; i am lee oswald; i was just waiting to see when you were going to recognize me." i said, "lee oswald, what are you doing in this country? i thought you were in russia. i thought you had given up your american citizenship and gone behind the iron curtain," and he said, "no," he said, "i went over there," he said, "but i didn't give up my citizenship." he said he had been back in the states for quite a while, and that he had brought his russian wife back with him; so i told him i would help him look for a place; so i rang up this friend of mine, and i asked her, i said, "vickie, do you happen to know where i can rent an apartment for a young couple with one little baby?" and she said, "yes; myrtle, i will take children. this is a little duplex," she said, and she said, "this is a nice little apartment, and i think they will like it," and i said, "how much?" and she said, "$ ," and i said, "well, he can't spend too much; he is just getting a new job." mr. jenner. what's her name? mrs. evans. mrs. maynard--vickie maynard. mr. jenner. do you know her husband's first name? mrs. evans. charles--charlie maynard. she only saw him for about minutes; she has no bearing on this. mr. jenner. oh, i see. mrs. evans. so she said, "myrtle, bring him over, and i'll see you in about minutes," and i said, "we'll come up and see it," so we got in the car and went up and looked at it, but it wasn't too impressive. it was an upper, and they had no laundry facilities, or anything. they did have a little spare room that he could have made into a nursery for the baby, but lee wasn't satisfied with it after we looked at it. he told me that he would rather get something on the first floor, and with laundry facilities, having the baby and all, so i said, "well, come on, lee; i don't know anybody that will take children," i said, "but we will just ride up and down the streets and see what we can find." so we rode in and out and all around baronne and napoleon and louisiana avenue, and carondelet, you know, just weaving in and out the streets, and looking for any signs of apartments for rent, so we finally rode down magazine street, and i said, "you might as well get as close to your work as possible if you are going to get an apartment." mr. jenner. had you learned in the meantime that he had a job with the reily coffee co.? mrs. evans. yes. he told me that he had just got a job with the reily coffee co., and that he wanted his wife to come over here. in fact, he was going to phone her to come over that saturday, i believe he said. mr. jenner. did he say what kind of job he had with reily? mrs. evans. no; he just told me he was going to work for the reily coffee co., and that he had been staying at lillian's, and that he was anxious for his wife to come to new orleans, and he said a friend was going to drive her over here; so we were coming down magazine street, and all of a sudden he said, "oh, there's a sign," and i said, "good," so i pulled up around the corner, and we got out and read the sign, and then we went up and rang the doorbell, and they showed us two apartments, and this one apartment was very good for the money. it was really the most for your money, i'd say, so i said, "lee," i said, "this is a very nice apartment for the money; you can't afford too much," and i said, "this is the best you can do," and i said, "if i were you, i would take it," and it had a living room that was a tremendous room. mr. jenner. larger than this room? mrs. evans. well, no; not quite that wide, but really long, and they had a bedroom here, and a kitchen that went this way, in other words, and it had a front screened porch, and a yard, and the yard was long, and it had a page fence. mr. jenner. what kind of fence was that? mrs. evans. a page fence--an iron fence, like they use around new orleans. you may call them storm fences, but down here they call them page fences. mr. jenner. can you see through them? mrs. evans. oh, yes; it's just that a child couldn't get in the street. i mean they are good fences, but they are not solid. you can see through them--these sort of diagonals, i guess you would call them. now, the people that ran the place that he rented it from were sort of caretakers. she lived on one side, and she ran the apartment on the other side that they rented. mr. jenner. what was her name; the lady who lived next door? mrs. evans. i don't know. i had her phone number and her name, and i was going to call her--i did call her once that i remember, but, nevertheless, i told lee to give her the money for the gas and light, in other words, the deposit, so she could get the electricity turned on, because he wanted his wife to come for saturday. i think this must have been about wednesday or thursday that we were there. he said it would be night before they got there, because this friend of his wife, who talked russian, was going to bring her over to new orleans, and bring the baby bed, bring everything, and that way, with the extra room and everything, that the lady could stay overnight, this friend of his wife, so we went on back and got in the car and rode on home, and i think i went out and got some luncheon meat and some things, and i think i ran to the grocery store, too, and got a pound of ham and some stuff, and we sat and ate lunch, and he drank a coke, i think, and we talked, and i asked him, i said, "well, how does it feel to be back in new orleans?" and he said, "i have wanted to move back to new orleans." he said, "new orleans is my home," and he said, "i felt like i just wanted to come back," and he said, "you know, i like the old high ceilings and the trees and the french quarter, and everything in new orleans," and he said, "you know, in russia the buildings are brand new," and we talked a little about russia--not too much, but he did tell me how men over in russia can't rent an apartment if they are not married; that they have to live in rooms, so many men to a room; that you have to be married to have an apartment; and he said that they were all modern, and they are given to you by the government, but that you can only have an apartment if you are married; so we talked some more about russia, and about him giving up his citizenship and things. mr. jenner. tell me what he said about giving up his citizenship. i want to hear all about that. mrs. evans. what he told me? mr. jenner. yes; what did he say about defecting to russia; anything he said about that? mrs. evans. he said he didn't give up his american citizenship; that that was ridiculous. he told me that he just wanted to see the country over there, and he had gotten work over there, and that he had fallen in love with this girl, and we talked about the difference in the housing here and over there, and he told me that they didn't pay any rent, and they had a modern apartment, i think, about on the fourth floor. mr. jenner. did he say it was only one room; that there was only one room to this apartment? mrs. evans. well, he said they had a living room, a bedroom, a dining room. mr. jenner. is that what he said? mrs. evans. yes; he said they had a nice place to live over there. mr. jenner. he said that? mrs. evans. yes; he told me it was an apartment, but he said he had to live with other men in one room prior to the time he was married. mr. jenner. when he said apartment, you assumed that he meant several rooms--a bedroom, kitchen, and so forth; isn't that right? mrs. evans. yes. mr. jenner. but you don't know that, do you, mrs. evans? mrs. evans. oh, no; i don't know that. i have never been to russia. all i know is what he told me. mr. jenner. but do you remember him distinctly telling you that his apartment had all of these rooms? mrs. evans. no; i don't remember that. he just said it was a modern apartment. i remember him saying that. it could have been just one room. mr. jenner. it could have been one room? mrs. evans. well, like i say, i just don't know. he said it was a modern apartment, but other than that i don't know what else he said, i mean, whether he described it any more than that or not, or whether i even asked him any more about it. mr. jenner. but he did use the word "apartment," is that right? mrs. evans. yes; he said they had an apartment; i remember that very plainly, and he said it was modern, but other than that i don't know. mr. jenner. but he didn't describe the apartment, as far as you can recall? mrs. evans. that's right; i don't remember him doing that. mr. jenner. and he didn't deny at any time to you that he had attempted to defect, but that he had failed? mrs. evans. no; he said he never did. mr. jenner. did he say he had not attempted to defect? mrs. evans. well, he said that he did not want to give up his american citizenship, and that he never intended to do so. he said, "i am an american," and he said, "i just went over there, just messing around." mr. jenner. did he express to you then or at any subsequent time his opinion of russia and his reaction to the life he had in russia? mrs. evans. well, he didn't seem to think they had treated him too bad. i guess he was just a young man in love with this russian girl, but he did say now that he had decided not to come back to the states until he could bring her with him. he did say that, so from that conversation i gathered that he evidently wanted to come back, but he had married into a russian family, and he had to get out the best way he could. now, this russian woman, i don't know if she was russian born or not, but the paper said that this woman was a teacher, and that she taught russian. mr. jenner. you mean mrs. paine? you are talking about mrs. paine now? mrs. evans. yes; i didn't even remember her name. mr. jenner. you mean the lady that brought marina over to new orleans from texas? mrs. evans. yes; the one that brought marina and the baby to new orleans. mr. jenner. well, we will get into that in a minute, mrs. evans; she's not a russian woman, by the way. she's a girl from columbus, ohio, that was a quaker. mrs. evans. is that right? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. evans. well, she did speak russian, and she was the lady friend of marina that was going to bring marina and the baby to new orleans. mr. jenner. well, that's right; she does speak russian? mrs. evans. he told me that his wife didn't speak american. mr. jenner. did he say why she didn't speak english? mrs. evans. why she didn't? mr. jenner. yes; did he give you any reason for that, why she wasn't learning the english language since she was living over here? mrs. evans. no; he didn't say anything about that. mr. jenner. what impression did you have of lee as of that visit, mrs. evans, because you were with him for quite a while there on this apartment hunting tour? what did you think of lee? mrs. evans. well, he was, i would say, sort of arrogant. he seemed to think of himself as being sort of apart from everybody else, and he carried himself so straight, and the way he had of avoiding people, and keeping within himself, and, you know, not talking too much--i noticed all that. i asked him how his mother was, and he said his mother was fine, and i asked him about his brothers, because his brothers were both in texas, and i believe one of them has a child or two, or something like that, and he said as far as he knew they were all right. we were just sort of talking, you might say, on the surface. you know how you do, riding along, and all the time looking for something--like we were looking for apartment signs. we were getting out and looking, and getting back in, and just driving around looking and talking about things in general. mr. jenner. now, you used the expression "arrogant." what did you mean by that? mrs. evans. well, you know--i don't know, just the way he talked, and walked around, i guess. i don't know what gives you that feeling when you are around somebody like that. he was just different. mr. jenner. do you think he considered himself superior to anybody else, or to his fellow americans, or anything like that? mrs. evans. well, i wouldn't say he acted like he was superior to anybody else. he acted normal in that respect, i guess, but he talked about russia and he talked about the way they lived, and then he said, "it's good to be back in the united states," and he said he would have come back before he did if it had not been for this russian girl that he married. he said he had been in texas months then, and i said, "well, what made you come back to new orleans?" and he said, "well, you know, this is my home, and i wanted to see my family." mr. jenner. the oswald family? mrs. evans. yes. he said he wanted to see if he could locate any of his family, that he didn't know who any of them were any more. mr. jenner. did he say anything at all as to whether he was happy or unhappy in russia? mrs. evans. no; he didn't say anything about that, except he said he would have come back sooner if he hadn't married this girl, and he had to wait until he could bring her out of the country. mr. jenner. did he say anything about having been in the service? mrs. evans. no; he didn't say anything about that, but i found that out. mr. jenner. did he say anything about what his ambitions were, what his objectives were in life now that he was back home? mrs. evans. no. mr. jenner. did he have any luggage with him? mrs. evans. not when he came to my house. he said he had been staying at his aunt's. mr. jenner. did he talk about any of his old friends? mrs. evans. no. mr. jenner. when he was a teenager, did he ever smoke? mrs. evans. no. mr. jenner. did you ever know him to smoke? mrs. evans. no. mr. jenner. or drink? mrs. evans. no. mr. jenner. would you say he was temperate with respect to smoking? mrs. evans. no; he was very deep; a very deep boy, and he liked to dig into things, and he liked music and books. mr. jenner. would you say he was a voracious reader? mrs. evans. yes; he liked to read, and he liked to listen to the radio. mr. jenner. what kind of music drew his attention, classics? mrs. evans. well, symphony--more of the highbrow stuff, i guess you would say. i don't really remember because this was so many years ago, and i didn't go up to their apartment that much, you know; she would come down to my apartment. mr. jenner. who would? mrs. evans. his mother, but i know he liked to listen to his records a lot, and he had a lot of books all over the place, you know. his mother would come downstairs in the evening sometime, you know, and we would sit and talk, and sometimes even when she would just come in from work, she would have dinner with me, or something like that, and that's the way it was with margie and me until we had this sort of falling out, i guess you would call it. then after they moved to texas, like i said, i didn't hear from them for quite awhile, and then lee came back and came to the house, and we did all of that apartment hunting until we found him one, and then after he had moved in, he called me one day and wanted to know if i could come up and meet marina. mr. jenner. how long was this after he had moved into the apartment, can you remember? mrs. evans. oh, i'd say about a week or so, and anyway i thought it would be nice to go up and meet marina, and i told him we would try to come up, because i would like to meet his wife, and he said, "just come anytime." he said she was anxious to meet me. well, of course, i was busy, so i didn't go, so one night while we were sitting and looking at television here his face comes glaring up on the television screen, and he had been arrested for passing out some kind of handbills or something, and it told about this scuffling over this cuban thing. mr. jenner. let me interrupt you there for a minute now. that's the first you ever heard, or the first knowledge you had, that lee oswald was mixed up in any way with this sort of activity, is that right? mrs. evans. oh, yes; i had no idea that he was mixed up in anything like this, and i was shocked when i saw his face come on the screen passing out these handbills in connection with this cuban thing, so i told my husband, "well, they said he went to russia to give up his american citizenship; well, maybe he has." i said, "i am certainly not going up there now," so i didn't go, and i don't know whether this was before that or after that, but i called up the lady that had rented the apartment to them--i had asked her for her phone number at the time, and i told her at the time that i would try to send her some tenants, so she did give me the number, so i called one time to see how the oswalds were getting along. evidently this must have been after that. i don't remember. so anyway i called and said---- mr. jenner. would that have been mrs. garner? mrs. evans. yes; that's right; garner. i told her, i said, "this is myrtle evans, who helped lee oswald get that apartment; how are the oswalds getting along," and she said, "you know, they are a queer kind of people," and she said, "i just told him, 'after all, how do you expect your wife and your child ever to speak the english language when all you ever talk to them is in russian'?" she said, "i told him, 'this girl doesn't know a word of english, and i can't converse with her at all'," and she said, "i asked him why he didn't talk to her in english and let her learn some english so that she can talk to the people that live here in this country, instead of always in russian." mr. jenner. what did she say he said when she said that? mrs. evans. well, she said he didn't say anything. she said she tried to help them in different ways, but they didn't seem to want her to help them, and that the girl couldn't talk a word of english, so she couldn't understand her anyway. she said that lee had for some reason always talked to her in russian. she said she told him, "she will never learn to speak english if you keep talking to her in russian." now, that must have been prior to the time that i saw this deal on television, and then the next thing i knew about lee, it was all over television, that he had killed the president, and the rest of it you know. i didn't even know he was back in texas. i thought he was still living on magazine street and working at the reily coffee co. mr. jenner. you didn't know he was back in texas? mrs. evans. no; because i never did go back when i saw this flash about the cuban situation on tv and lee's picture all over the screen. i said "if he is russian, i don't want to get dragged into it. maybe they will think i had something to do with it." mr. jenner. so you just stayed away, is that right? mrs. evans. that's right; i didn't want to take a chance in getting involved in anything like that. however, i will say this, i would have loved to meet marina. maybe you can call it curiosity, or something, but i did want to meet her. she seems to be such a lovely person. i couldn't tell you where they lived in texas. i never heard from them any more after that. i would have liked to tell his mother how sorry i felt for the loss of her son, and things like that, but i just don't know how to go about something like that now. i guess it's just one of those things, but i sure do feel sorry for her. mr. jenner. tell me this: in the time that you knew lee, did he pretty much get his own way? would you be able to say as to that? mrs. evans. well, i would say he did; definitely. she would try to give him everything he wanted--that she could, i mean, and do everything he wanted her to do. i've seen that happen many times in the time that i knew them and especially while they lived at my house. i mean, she couldn't give him a lot of material things. she just didn't have much, you know, but she would try to pacify him. that boy was so inclined to be within himself, that it was hard to figure him out. i guess no one will be able to tell what was really in his mind. they called him a "loner", and i guess that's about the best description you can give him. he was certainly a quiet type boy. mr. jenner. what did you observe with respect to his relations with other children? just how did he regard them? mrs. evans. well, to be truthful with you, i never really saw him with anyone except his mother practically. mr. jenner. do you recall when you had a discussion with marguerite with respect to her leaving lee with a couple? mrs. evans. oh, yes. marguerite told me that she had this couple at her home looking after lee. lee wasn't at that time, you see, and so he wasn't old enough to put in a nursery, but then the neighbors began telling her that they were cruel to her child when she wasn't home, and that the child was doing a lot of crying, and so she came home from work early one day, and she said her baby was screaming, and he had welts on his legs, and that this man had beat her baby, and so she put them out that night. now, who they were or what their names where, i don't know, but she said that no one would take lee, and she just didn't know what to do with him while she was working, so that's why she got this couple in the first place. mr. jenner. why wouldn't anybody take lee? mrs. evans. well, i mean, she couldn't put him in a home. mr. jenner. because he was too young? mrs. evans. because he was too young, that's right. the older boys could be put in a home--in fact, of course, they were, but lee was not yet years old, and they have to be before a home will take them. she didn't want to go to the welfare, because once the welfare goes into a case and gets hold of a child, you have nothing but red tape and everything, and sometimes you have a hard job getting your child back, so she didn't want to fool with them, and yet she couldn't put him in the home, so she said there was nothing else for her to do but to try to get somebody to take care of him, which she did, and she was sorry she ever did that. mr. jenner. you say lee denied to you during your discussion with him that he had ever tried to give up his american citizenship? mrs. evans. yes; he said that he never intended to do that, but he just wanted to see the country, over in russia, and see how they live and how the country looks, and so he went into russia and got a job there and was working, and then he met this girl, and they got married, and he told me he would have been back sooner if he had figured out some way to get her out of the country. actually he didn't seem to want to talk too much about it, and i didn't try to pump him too much, but i was just curious to see if he had had any change of mind, and what had really happened. i do feel that he was sympathetic with the communist system of government, i mean, of the russian system, but now i was only with him a few hours, and we just generally talked about his mother and his brothers, and his job, and looking for an apartment, and he didn't even tell me at the time that his wife was expecting another baby, and i was surprised when i heard that. mr. jenner. what did he say about his brothers and his mother? mrs. evans. well, he said the boys where in texas, and that his mother was fine, and that she was in texas, and i think robert, or one of them, had a couple of children. i think that was robert that had a couple of children, and we just talked generally about things like that, you know. mr. jenner. did you get the impression that he was patriotic toward the united states, or what kind of an impression did you get in talking to lee? mrs. evans. well, like i said, he seemed to be sympathetic toward russia, but he told me that he was glad to be back in the united states, and that the only reason he was in russia working at all was because he had married this russian girl and wanted to get her out of the country, or he would have been back sooner. mr. jenner. did he say anything about his having served in the marines, anything about how he felt about that service, or did you know he was in the marines? mrs. evans. well, i sort of half way knew about it, maybe from his aunt; i don't know, but i don't even remember if lee mentioned that fact in our discussion that day. i don't really remember that. i do know that he always wanted to go in the marines. mr. jenner. he always wanted to go into the marines? mrs. evans. yes; he did. mr. jenner. tell me about that. how do you know that? mrs. evans. well, because when he was going to beauregard, he wanted to be a marine. mr. jenner. he expressed that to you? mrs. evans. yes; he always wanted to be a marine. he often said that. mr. jenner. do you recall a period of time when he wasn't in high school, but he still lived there? mrs. evans. you mean in my apartment? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. evans. no; because they moved from my house, and i lost contact with them. mr. jenner. but while they were living in your apartment, did he actually express a desire to go into the marines? mrs. evans. yes; he was always ambitious to be a marine, as far as i know. mr. jenner. did he ever express a desire to be like his brother, since it wound up that they were both in the marines? mrs. evans. well, yes; i think he wanted to be like his brothers; they were both in the service, you know. i think john was a marine, but i can't remember what branch of the service robert was in. mr. jenner. well, john was in the coast guard, i think. mrs. evans. well, the coast guard, and so robert must have been in the marines. mr. jenner. that's right. mrs. evans. as long as i have known lee though, he has wanted to be in the marines. that's one of the things he said he always wanted to do. mr. jenner. did you learn anything as to the mother's attitude in that respect, about her boys going into the service, and particularly lee? mrs. evans. no; but margie was satisfied that her children were going into the service, because she didn't have the money to send them to college, so they could graduate and all that, so it was natural that they would go in the service after they got out of high school. mr. jenner. did you ever meet mrs. paine? mrs. evans. no; you mean the lady who brought marina to new orleans? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. evans. no; because i never even met his wife. i never went there at all. he called me, like i said, and told me that his wife had come to new orleans, and he said he would like for me to come up and visit them and meet her, and i said, "lee, i am going to try to come," and i said, "you-all come to see us," and he said, "come just any time." he said marina was anxious to meet me, and to come up and visit them at any time. mr. jenner. i have no further questions, but i would like to ask you this general question, mrs. evans: does anything occur to you that might be helpful to the commission that i haven't asked you about, either because i neglected to do so or because i haven't learned about it? if you can think of anything, i will appreciate it if you will tell me at this time, any incident or occurrence that took place during the time that you knew the oswalds. mrs. evans. no; i can't think of anything else. mr. jenner. would you say his character, and i'm talking about lee now, would you say it was strong or weak, or what? for example, did he give way quickly to anger, or on the contrary was he a man of self-control? mrs. evans. well, he could get angry with his mother. that was when he was in his teens, of course, the way he would holler at her when he wanted to eat, or something like that, and when he would holler, she would jump up and practically run to do whatever he wanted her to do. of course, i don't know anything about his manhood, because i was only in his company about or hours then. mr. jenner. would you say he was a pleasant and inviting individual with whom you yourself would seek to be in his presence, or be with him, or just what sort of emotions did he display generally? that's what i'm getting at. mrs. evans. well, he didn't laugh too much, and he wasn't a light type of person. he was what i would call deep. he wasn't real friendly. to like him, you would have to know him. i mean, even as a child, you didn't warm to him, because he was very quiet and deep, and of course i didn't have too much contact with him. most of my contact with with his mother. mr. jenner. all right, mrs. evans, i appreciate very much your coming in and giving me this information, and i know it will be helpful to the commission in its evaluation of all the evidence with regard to this matter. now, in the taking of this deposition, it is your privilege to read your deposition over and to sign it. it is also your privilege to waive that. in other words, you don't have to read and sign it unless you want to. you can waive that privilege, and the reporter will go ahead and transcribe your testimony, and it will be sent on to washington, but if you prefer to read and sign it, the reporter will transcribe it, and you will be notified by the united states attorney here when to come in and read and sign it. as i have told you before, your testimony will not be disclosed other than by the commission when and if the commission deems it necessary. what is your pleasure on that now, mrs. evans? do you want to read and sign your deposition, or do you want to waive that? mrs. evans. oh, i will waive it. i have just told what i know about it, and that's all i can tell you. mr. jenner. you wish to waive the reading and signing and trust to the reporter's ability and competence in transcribing your deposition, is that right? mrs. evans. yes. mr. jenner. all right; thank you again, mrs. evans, for appearing here voluntarily, and giving us this information. testimony of julian evans the testimony of julian evans was taken on april , , at the old civil courts building, royal and conti streets, new orleans, la., by mr. albert e. jenner, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. julian evans, prytania street, new orleans, la., after first being duly sworn, testified as follows: mr. jenner. you are julian evans, husband of myrtle evans, is that right? mr. evans. yes, sir. mr. jenner. mrs. evans just left this room after giving her deposition, is that right? mr. evans. yes. mr. jenner. and you live at prytania street, new orleans, is that right? mr. evans. that's right. mr. jenner. mr. evans, you are a native-born american, is that correct, sir? mr. evans. correct. mr. jenner. where were you born? mr. evans. new york. mr. jenner. new york city? mr. evans. yes. mr. jenner. how long have you lived in this area? mr. evans. new orleans? mr. jenner. yes. mr. evans. well, about years. mr. jenner. what is your business or occupation, mr. evans? mr. evans. d. h. holmes; salesman--major appliances. mr. jenner. how long have you lived on prytania, at that address? mr. evans. let's see--it's going on years now. mr. jenner. and you are mrs. evans' second husband, is that right, sir? mr. evans. that's right. mr. jenner. were you married before? mr. evans. no. mr. jenner. during your lifetime you came to know the oswald family, is that right? mr. evans. yes; the boy and his mother. mr. jenner. marguerite and lee? mr. evans. yes; and there was another brother--two other brothers. mr. jenner. john pic and robert lee oswald, is that right? mr. evans. that's right. i met them for the first time when we were across the lake, around covington, la.--the three boys and marguerite, and pic--no; i mean ekdahl; that was before she married him. mr. jenner. mr. ekdahl was over there with them? mr. evans. yes. mr. jenner. do you know where mr. ekdahl was from? mr. evans. from boston. that was the first time i ever saw any of the boys. mr. jenner. they were then living over in covington, and that was during the summer, is that right? mr. evans. that's right. mr. jenner. do you know what that address was over there? mr. evans. no; i don't remember that address. i think they rented a place over there. mr. jenner. this was in , is that right? mr. evans. that's about right. mr. jenner. now, there are two addresses given for that place, west th street, covington, la., and vermont street, is that right? mr. evans. well, i don't know the address. we didn't go to the house. mr. jenner. you went to a picnic, is that right? mr. evans. yes; we went to a picnic over there. mr. jenner. and mr. ekdahl was there with marguerite and the children, is that right? mr. evans. yes, he was there, and i talked to him. he was a lot older than she was, you know. mr. jenner. mr. ekdahl was a lot older than marguerite? mr. evans. yes; he was. mr. jenner. what was your impression of mr. ekdahl at that time? mr. evans. very well; a fine gentleman, well educated. he seemed to know his business. he talked about rocks and ore and things like that, and i enjoyed talking to him. that's the only time i have ever seen him. mr. jenner. i forgot, mr. evans, but you did receive a letter from mr. rankin, general counsel for the commission, did you not? mr. evans. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and enclosed with that letter was senate joint resolution , authorizing the creation of the commission to investigate the assassination of the late president john fitzgerald kennedy, is that right? mr. evans. yes. mr. jenner. and executive order no. of lyndon b. johnson, appointing that commission and fixing its powers and duties? mr. evans. yes. mr. jenner. and a copy of the rules and regulations under which we take testimony before the commission and also by way of deposition, such as in your case; is that right? mr. evans. yes, sir. mr. jenner. you became aware, i take it, from these documents that you received that the commission was empowered and directed to investigate the circumstances surrounding the assassination of president john fitzgerald kennedy; is that right? mr. evans. that's right. mr. jenner. i am albert e. jenner, jr., and i represent the legal staff of the commission, along with mr. liebeler, and our purpose for being here is to ask you questions concerning any contact you might have had with the oswald family, and particularly lee oswald, during his lifetime, and we understand that both you and mrs. evans did have some contact with the oswalds, is that right? mr. evans. yes. mr. jenner. now, you appeared voluntarily here today, is that right? mr. evans. right. mr. jenner. did you and mrs. evans stay over at covington more than a day on this occasion that you began to tell me about? mr. evans. no. mr. jenner. you just visited over there on one occasion? mr. evans. yes. mr. jenner. did you visit at covington on any other occasions? mr. evans. no. mr. jenner. and this was in , so lee would have been or years old, is that right? mr. evans. i guess; he was pretty small. mr. jenner. and the other two boys were also with her, you say? mr. evans. yes; they were all with her over there. mr. jenner. were they in school at the time, do you know? mr. evans. i think they were in school. they were on vacation, i believe, because this was during the summer; i am pretty sure they were on vacation over there. mr. jenner. the two boys, that is, john and robert, they were in a school that was different from the school that lee was attending, if he was attending school, is that right? mr. evans. well, i don't know if he was attending school or not, but i don't think they went to the same school. these other boys went to an out-of-town school, i think. mr. jenner. that's what i was getting at. i was trying to have you say it voluntarily, rather than me say it. do you understand that they were attending a military school over in mississippi? mr. evans. those two boys; yes. mr. jenner. the two older boys? mr. evans. yes; i'm pretty sure that that's right. mr. jenner. and lee was with his mother; he stayed with her? mr. evans. yes; with his mother and mr. ekdahl--you mean in covington now? mr. jenner. no; in texas; this was just a summer vacation over in covington, isn't that right? mr. evans. yes; that's right. mr. jenner. what impression did you get as to the life and habits and personality of mr. ekdahl and marguerite and lee, that is, when they were not on vacation--when they were moving from place to place in the pursuit of mr. ekdahl's line of business, from city to city? mr. evans. well, i think marguerite and ekdahl got along pretty well, except for the kid. i mean, he wanted his own way about everything. mr. jenner. you noticed that? mr. evans. oh, yes. mr. jenner. that was quite apparent to you even though this was vacation time when you saw them over in covington? mr. evans. i don't understand that. mr. jenner. i said, was this apparent to you even when they were on this picnic over in covington that you told us about? mr. evans. yes; you could notice that. it seemed like all his life, lee wanted his way, and that's what he wanted. mr. jenner. well, you are expressing that opinion from what you have heard and read, in addition to what you saw yourself, are you not? mr. evans. yes. mr. jenner. but you did notice that yourself? mr. evans. oh, yes, i did; definitely i noticed it. mr. jenner. was that the first time that you had met either marguerite or ekdahl? mr. evans. yes; that's the first time. i may have met marguerite before but not ekdahl, and not the boys either, but marguerite was working on canal street in some hosiery shop, and i might have seen her there. i know myrtle knew her for quite a few years, so i probably had met her before. i just don't remember now. mr. jenner. what kind of a person was she? mr. evans. she was a very fine person, a nice looking woman--well educated, soft spoken, a very, very nice woman; wonderful. mr. jenner. did you get the impression that mr. ekdahl and she, apart from this vacation, traveled a lot? mr. evans. yes. mr. jenner. because of his work? mr. evans. yes. mr. jenner. living in hotels? mr. evans. that's right; they lived in hotels and also they took lee with them. mr. jenner. they took lee with them? mr. evans. yes; everywhere. mr. jenner. in traveling on his job? mr. evans. that's right. they were living in texas for awhile, i believe, and then he did some traveling in texas, new york, and other places, but they would always take the boy with them when they went. mr. jenner. you and mrs. evans maintained somewhat of a friendship with marguerite, did you not? mr. evans. that's right. of course, my wife knew her more years than i did. she knew her a long time before she was even married. mr. jenner. that's right; our information shows that. mr. evans. she knew her when she lived down on alvar street. mr. jenner. that was before you had any contact with the oswald family, is that right? mr. evans. that's right. mr. jenner. has your wife given you any of the details regarding the background of the oswald family? mr. evans. yes; over the years we have discussed it. mr. jenner. well, i wouldn't be interested right now in what your wife told you, because we have taken her deposition, but i just want to know what you know of the family and your impressions of them, and so forth. mr. evans. yes, sir. mr. jenner. were you married to mrs. evans when the oswalds lived at st. mary? mr. evans. yes, sir. mr. jenner. you were? mr. evans. yes, sir. mr. jenner. tell me about that. how did that come about? how did you first come to know them. mr. evans. well, she came to town, and she wanted an apartment. mr. jenner. from where did she come? mr. evans. well, she was living here with her sister, and they couldn't get along, or something. mr. jenner. lillian murret, is that who you are talking about? mr. evans. yes; her sister; she lives downtown. mr. jenner. lillian murret? mr. evans. that's right. mr. jenner. and she is marguerite's sister? mr. evans. yes; i think her and the boys were living there, and they couldn't get along, or something, so they looked for an apartment, and she asked my wife if she knew about a place anywhere that she might rent, or if she had a place, and so then they moved into the apartment right next to us, and there was some disagreement about the apartment, or something, and my wife told her she could give her the apartment, but not for the same amount of money, or something like that--i don't know exactly how all that took place, but my wife can tell you that, but anyway she got mad and left, and they moved down in the french quarter. mr. jenner. do you know where? mr. evans. well, it's some little short street down in the french quarter, you know, right off of canal. it's not such a good neighborhood, a lot of poolrooms and places like that. mr. jenner. would that be exchange alley? mr. evans. exchange alley, yes; that's it. we took them on vacation one time on a week end across the lake with us. mr. jenner. you did? mr. evans. yes. mr. jenner. tell me about that. mr. evans. we took them over to my sister-in-law's place, across the lake. mr. jenner. when you say across the lake, which lake is that? mr. evans. lake pontchartrain. mr. jenner. and where's your sister-in-law's place across the lake? mr. evans. at sun, la. they are in the sand and gravel business over there, and they have a private pond to fish in, you know, and they stock it themselves and they have some nice fish in there, and so lee and the boys were down there fishing, but lee didn't talk to the other kids or anything. he just seemed to want to be alone, and he just fished by himself, and the odd part of his behavior that we all thought was very strange was the way he would just let the fish die on the bank after he would catch them. now, the other small boys would catch them and, and if there was enough for eating and everything, they would throw the others back, but not lee. he would pull them in and just throw them down on the river--i mean on the bank by the pond and just let them lay there, and when he got through he just walked off and left them there. something like that is hard to understand. he didn't catch them for eating, and he didn't want to throw them back in. he just left them on the bank and walked off after he got tired of fishing. we couldn't understand that at all. it showed how totally inconsiderate he was of everything. it was a good example of how he acted, and his general attitude. mr. jenner. how old was he at that time? mr. evans. he was just a young fellow. mr. jenner. about , or years old, would you say? mr. evans. yes; somewhere around there. i believe he was going to warren easton at the time, or he went to easton shortly after that. mr. jenner. he first went to beauregard junior high school, is that right? mr. evans. yes; and then he went to warren easton when he was about , i think. he wouldn't talk much. if you talked to him, maybe he would answer you and maybe he wouldn't, but you had to speak to him first. that's the last time i saw him until he came back from texas looking for a place to stay. mr. jenner. when lee was living in the apartment with his mother, what did you notice, or observe, with relationship to his mother? i mean, did he seem to respect her authority, or was he impervious and arrogant? mr. evans. he was arrogant. mr. jenner. can you remember some incident that would illustrate that for us? mr. evans. well, his mother would be in our apartment talking to my wife, for example, and if he came home from school or somewhere, he would holler real loud, "maw, how about something to eat?" mr. jenner. he would be demanding, you mean? mr. evans. yes; real demanding, and loud. he wanted her to come right now, and he had absolutely no patience with her at all, it seemed. mr. jenner. it was just not raising his voice to let his mother know he was home, or anything like that? mr. evans. no; it was real demanding. he would know where she was when she was talking to my wife, and when he hollered at her, she would have to go right now. mr. jenner. did he ever get home early from school, or was it about the regular time? mr. evans. oh, about the regular time, i think. i don't think he ever stayed away from school. i think he went to school all right, but, i mean, he was arrogant, and nobody liked him. that was the thing. mr. jenner. did he ever associate with any of the children in the neighborhood? mr. evans. no; he didn't. he didn't associate with anybody. mr. jenner. do you remember anything about his habits? did he stay in the apartment, or go out, or what? mr. evans. he stayed mostly in the apartment. now, when he lived upstairs in the apartment, he would go out on the front porch and read. he always had a few books around, paper covered books. mr. jenner. paperbacks? mr. evans. yes; paperbacks. he had a lot of them. mr. jenner. did he go to the public library and get books? mr. evans. well, i don't know. i can't answer that, but he did a lot of reading, but, you know, it was mostly this cheap stuff, i think. mr. jenner. would you say he was a voracious reader? mr. evans. yes, he read; he read all the time. i mean, from what i noticed by him being around the apartment. mr. jenner. did you notice any other traits about him that you wondered about, or that you thought unusual or strange? mr. evans. he seemed to be in deep thought a lot of times--always thinking. he was hard to get to. mr. jenner. he was hard to get to? mr. evans. yes; that's right. mr. jenner. did you ever feel that you ever got to know lee oswald, mr. evans. mr. evans. no; i can't say that i ever did. i don't think anybody did. i don't think anybody even came close to it, because the way he was nobody could figure him out. it was hard to get to him or to understand him. he didn't want you to get too close to him, for one thing. he never went out of his way to make friends, i mean, from what i knew of him. mr. jenner. he sort of shied away from friends, or people who might have become friends, or who might have tried to be friendly with him? mr. evans. yes; that's it. you would try to be nice to him, but he wouldn't appreciate it, and he didn't mind showing you that he didn't appreciate it. my sister-in-law's children tried to be friendly with him when we had him across the lake to their house. they asked him to go swimming with them, and everything, but he just wanted to be by himself. finally, the kids got so that they just didn't pay any attention to him. kids are like that, you know. if he wanted to be that way, that was all right with them. they just went ahead and enjoyed themselves, and to heck with him. they didn't let him bother them at all with the way he acted. mr. jenner. as i gather it, they tried to be friendly with him, but when he wouldn't reciprocate, then they said, in effect, "ok, we won't be friendly; see if we care"; is that right? mr. evans. that's right. mr. jenner. now, when they lived at your apartment, the address was given there as and then later it was changed to ; what was that all about? could you explain that? mr. evans. well, there was nothing to that. they just moved from upstairs to downstairs. we were remodeling the apartment upstairs, and so she moved downstairs, really next door, and when she found out that she wasn't going to be permitted by my wife to move back upstairs, that's when she got mad and left, but, really, lee had become very noisy and loud, and we just decided that we would rather not have him back in that apartment for that reason--because he was actually disturbing everybody around there with his loudness. you could really tell when he was home. mr. jenner. you could? mr. evans. oh, yes; in fact, lee couldn't talk to his mother in a soft voice or a low voice; it was always a very loud, insolent voice, and it seemed like he got to raising his voice all the time, and he didn't seem to care who heard him or what he said. you knew he was home, all right. mr. jenner. did some friction arise between mrs. evans, the landlady, and mrs. oswald about that time? mr. evans. yes; it was about the apartment, and my wife told her that she just couldn't let her move back upstairs, and she didn't like that at all, and then she moved away. mr. jenner. would you say that lee was a very impervious fellow? mr. evans. yes; i would say that. he had what i would call a foghorn voice, and he didn't seem to make any effort at all to control it. he would just blare out, and it did disturb others around the house. he had a good speaking voice, though; i will say that; very good. mr. jenner. now, after this incident in which marguerite took over other quarters and moved out with her son, when next did you hear about or have any contact with either marguerite or lee oswald? mr. evans. when he came back there to look for an apartment. mr. jenner. that would have been last spring? mr. evans. yes. mr. jenner. is that right? mr. evans. yes. mr. jenner. may? mr. evans. around may. mr. jenner. may of ? mr. evans. yes, sir; we were eating breakfast at the time, i think, and i was about to leave for work, because i was due at work pretty soon, but my wife talked to him and showed him around later, she told me, and she helped him get an apartment. mr. jenner. did you notice anything unusual about lee when you first met him that day? mr. evans. well, when i shook hands with him, his hand was so soft; it was just like there was nothing there, no bones or anything. mr. jenner. a fishy handshake, was it? mr. evans. that's right; just soft, like no bones in his hand; that's the way he shook hands. mr. jenner. you mean he didn't have a firm handclasp; is that right? mr. evans. that's right. his hand was not solid, like the average person that you shake hands with. it was soft. i had understood that he had been fooling around with machinery, but he didn't have the hand of a mechanic. mr. jenner. had you heard anything about him before he came to your house that day? mr. evans. you mean in connection with this cuban thing? mr. jenner. yes; anything about that? mr. evans. no; that came after that. mr. jenner. all right; we'll get to that in a minute. when he got to your apartment, he rang the bell, and your wife let him in; is that right? mr. evans. yes; she answered the door? mr. jenner. she answered the door? mr. evans. yes. mr. jenner. did he make an inquiry about an apartment, as to whether he could find one, or what? mr. evans. yes; he did, and she said to come on in, and he came in, and they sat down and we talked a few minutes before i had to leave. mr. jenner. did you and your wife recognize him then? mr. evans. oh, yes. mr. jenner. immediately? mr. evans. he hadn't changed. he was talking a little more. i noticed that right away, and about his physical appearance, though, it was about the same, except that he was taller, but you could tell it was the same lee oswald. mr. jenner. you recognized him right away; is that right? mr. evans. yes; i recognized him. we talked for a little bit, but i had to leave after we had had a couple of shots of coffee, because i had to get to work. i was on my way, in fact, when he came to the door; so i didn't get to see him for very long that morning. when i left, my wife was talking to him about the possibilities of getting him an apartment, and at that point i had to leave. i left then and went to the office. later that day my wife told me that she had found him an apartment, and she also told me that he told her that he had found a job with the reily coffee co. mr. jenner. he had found a job with the reily coffee co.? mr. evans. that's what my wife told me he said, and she said he seemed to he very happy about it, because he was going to bring his wife over from texas, and they were going to live here in an apartment, and my wife said he wanted to call her right away, as soon as they found the apartment, and that a friend was going to drive her over. mr. jenner. did your wife question him in your presence about his alleged attempt to defect to russia, and whether or not he had renounced his american citizenship? mr. evans. well, yes; she did ask him about that, but he denied it. he said he was only a tourist in russia, or something like that. he said he just wanted to see the country and how they lived, and that he did not intend to ever give up his american citizenship. the next thing we knew, we were watching television, and his picture came on there, as big as life, and it showed him passing out leaflets or something. i think it was on canal street--no; i think that was on bolivar. anyway, the signs read, "free cuba," or something like that. mr. jenner. could that have been "fair play for cuba"? mr. evans. that's right. mr. jenner. what was your reaction when you saw this on the screen? mr. evans. well, we didn't know what to think; whether he was in this by himself, or whether he had accomplices, or what, and my wife had planned to go up and visit his wife up at their apartment up on magazine, but after that came on the screen, and all, she decided not to go. she said she didn't know what he was getting himself involved in, but that she had better not go up there, and she didn't. mr. jenner. then neither you nor your wife visited them at their apartment on magazine street; is that right? mr. evans. that's right. mr. jenner. you did not? mr. evans. no. mr. jenner. and they never did visit you after that, either; is that right? mr. evans. that's right. they didn't visit us, and we didn't visit them. mr. jenner. was there any discussion of president kennedy at this breakfast that you had with your wife and lee that morning he first showed up--at least, before you left for work? mr. evans. no. mr. jenner. was anything like that mentioned at all as long as you were there, at least? mr. evans. no. like i said, i just finished a cup of coffee and left. i had to get to the office. mr. jenner. did you ever see lee oswald in any fits of temper, so to speak? mr. evans. no; i didn't. i never did actually see anything like that, but i could hear him all right, the way he would shout at his mother and so forth. i mean, but i never did actually see him at times like that. he would be up in the apartment. from what i could hear, though, i could tell that he was very demanding of her. mr. jenner. very demanding of his mother? mr. evans. yes; he was. mr. jenner. what other impressions did you have of this boy? mr. evans. well, i thought he was a psycho. i really did. he was so young to be acting the way he did. of course, there is no doubt that his mother really spoiled him. she would do just about anything he wanted, if it was possible to be done, like giving him money or anything like that, and i understand that he was the cause of his mother's divorce from ekdahl. ekdahl said that lee was more demanding of his mother than he was, and he was her husband. mr. jenner. you had the impression that lee came between her and mr. ekdahl? mr. evans. yes, sir. mr. jenner. give me your impression of marguerite oswald. mr. evans. marguerite? mr. jenner. yes. mr. evans. i think she's a fine woman, myself, a fine woman; intelligent, very soft spoken--a beautiful woman, with black hair streaked with a little gray, but when you saw her on television since this thing happened, she really looked awful; nothing at all like she used to look. she has really aged. she looked like a charwoman, compared to what she used to look like. she used to be a fashion plate. she dressed beautifully, but when we saw her on television just recently, after all this happened, she looked awful. there's no other way to describe it, the change that has come over her. you wouldn't have recognized her if they hadn't told you who she was; she looked that different. where her hair used to be black, now it's entirely gray, and she really looks old. mr. jenner. well, she's , i believe. mr. evans. that's right; she's the same age as my wife, but she looks about now. that's about all i can remember about her, and then i saw this thing on television when the president was assassinated, and when it showed her picture, we just couldn't believe it was marguerite. mr. jenner. were you home when her picture came on television, along with this news of the president's assassination and oswald's arrest? mr. evans. no; i was at the store at the time. it was on television there. mr. jenner. what did you do when you saw it? mr. evans. i immediately called my wife, and i said, "do you have the television on?" and she said, "no," and i said, "well, put it on." i said, "they are holding lee oswald as the assassin," and she said, "no; that can't be!" and i said, "turn on the television and see for yourself." mr. jenner. did you ever observe anything about lee oswald that would lead you to believe that he had any propensity toward acts of violence on the person of anybody else? mr. evans. no; he was a good talker. mr. jenner. he was a good talker? mr. evans. yes; he was. he had a good vocabulary; pretty good for his age, anyway; so i guess all that reading he did must have accounted for that. also, he had a pretty good memory, for one thing, and his expressions were good, but he was very noisy and would talk in a loud voice all the time, especially when he wanted something from his mother or wanted her to do something for him. i used to think it was pretty awful the way he used to yell at her, but she didn't seem to mind. she would jump up the minute he yelled, and she did everything for him that she could. but he did have a booming voice. you don't see a voice in a kid like that, at years old, very often. his voice was just about changing then, at that early age. mr. jenner. did he seem aggressive in that respect, at least with other children? mr. evans. yes; i would say so. mr. jenner. what was your impression of this man in general when he came back to new orleans in and you had occasion to see him? mr. evans. in what way? mr. jenner. well, say, with respect to money; what was his financial status? mr. evans. you mean this boy? mr. jenner. yes, oswald; what was his status with relation to income or the amount of money he possessed, or anything like that? what did you learn about that? mr. evans. well i don't think he had any money. mr. jenner. that was your impression; that he had no money, or any outside source of money? mr. evans. yes. he couldn't even afford a nice apartment for his wife and child. he had to get the cheapest apartment he could find, because we had friends that had other places that he could have gotten, but he couldn't afford anything better. he did not have money; that's what seemed to be so odd, to our way of thinking, when we heard those rumors and reports that he was getting money from other sources to do all of this stuff that he seemed to be getting into. we just figured if he was getting any other money, then he would be living in a better place and taking better care of his family, but he couldn't afford to pay for anything. mr. jenner. then you saw no evidence of him having any money? mr. evans. no. mr. jenner. do you think it possible that he might have received any substantial quantities from any other source? mr. evans. no; i don't. even his clothing was bad, all worn, and he didn't have a coat on that i ever saw. mr. jenner. no coat? mr. evans. just a sport shirt is all, when i saw him. i don't know of any other income he could have had. of course, his mother might have been helping him. if it was possible, i know she would have helped him. i don't think his brothers helped him any. mr. jenner. does anything else occur to you that might be helpful to the commission in its investigation; anything that i might not have asked you about, or that i just didn't know about, and that you think might be of assistance to us in this investigation? mr. evans. no; not a thing. mr. jenner. now, this deposition will be transcribed by the reporter, and you have the privilege under the law of reading and signing your deposition. however, you don't have to do that. you can waive that right and let the reporter transcribe the deposition, and it will be forwarded direct to washington, to the commission. now, what is your preference in that regard? mr. evans. i will waive that. mr. jenner. you will waive that privilege? mr. evans. yes; i can't think of anything else besides what i have already told you. i didn't actually know lee too well, because he just wasn't the type of man you could get close to. he just sort of lived in his own world, i guess you would say, and he didn't want friends, or at least that was my impression, and i did have enough contact with him that i could arrive at my own opinion. mr. jenner. all right, mr. evans. thank you very much for coming in voluntarily and answering these questions. testimony of philip eugene vinson the testimony of philip eugene vinson was taken at p.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. liebeler. would you rise and i will administer the oath. do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. vinson. i do. mr. liebeler. my name is wesley j. liebeler. i am a member of the legal staff of the president's commission to investigate the assassination of president kennedy. i have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the commission pursuant to authority granted to it by executive order , dated november , , and joint resolution of congress no. . the commission's rules require that a witness be given days' notice prior to the time that he can be required to testify. i don't think you have been given days' notice, but you are entitled to waive that notice if you want to. i assume that as long as you are here, you are perfectly willing to waive it and go ahead. mr. vinson. that's right. mr. liebeler. i want to give you now a copy of the executive order that i just mentioned, plus the resolution of congress no. , and the rules of procedure, which rules have been adopted to govern the taking of testimony from witnesses. you may keep those documents and refer to them as you wish. the commission understands that you were a classmate of lee harvey oswald in the second grade? mr. vinson. yes. mr. liebeler. while that may not seem to have too much relationship to the events of last november, one of the purposes of the commission is to try to determine, assuming oswald's guilt, his motive. in that area it might be that the kind of person he was when he was in the second grade or younger than that, throughout his youth, may have some relevance. mr. liebeler. before we get into the details of that, however, i would like you to state your full name. mr. vinson. philip eugene vinson. mr. liebeler. where do you live, mr. vinson? mr. vinson. baell street, fort worth, tex. mr. liebeler. you are presently employed as a reporter for a fort worth newspaper, is that correct? mr. vinson. that's right. mr. liebeler. which newspaper? mr. vinson. the fort worth star telegram. mr. liebeler. how long have you been employed by them? mr. vinson. since july , . mr. liebeler. what kind of work have you been doing for them? mr. vinson. reporter. mr. liebeler. do you have any particular specialty, or just a general reporter; what kind of work are you actually doing? mr. vinson. we have a bureau in arlington, tex., which specializes in covering suburban news in the community between dallas and fort worth, and we have two reporters assigned to this bureau, and i am one of the two reporters in this bureau at this time. mr. liebeler. so you are actually presently located or based in arlington; is that correct? mr. vinson. that's right. we have an office in arlington. mr. liebeler. have you been doing this same work ever since you went to work for the newspaper? mr. vinson. no. mr. liebeler. what other jobs have you had? mr. vinson. when i started, i was given the routine work that most beginner reporters assume. you start out writing obituaries and just general assignments on the city side or working through the city editor, and i did that for about weeks. during this time i was doing this days a week, while on saturday they were training me to take over the police reporters job. and i worked days out of the main office and day from the police station for about weeks. and then around the first of september i became a full-time police reporter for the evening star telegram, and i worked as a police reporter until about october the --excuse me, until about, i would say, around october , the latter part of october. i don't know the dates exactly, but i stayed as a police reporter for a little less than months. then the management decided that they were going to establish this bureau in arlington, and i was chosen along with another reporter to come out to work in arlington. mr. liebeler. how old are you, mr. vinson? mr. vinson. twenty-three. mr. liebeler. when were you born? mr. vinson. july , . mr. liebeler. where? mr. vinson. childress, tex. mr. liebeler. where is that? mr. vinson. it is just at the beginning of the panhandle. it is about miles west of wichita falls and about miles southeast of amarillo, just at the base of the panhandle. mr. liebeler. how long did you live there? mr. vinson. i lived there until the summer of , with one exception. we moved to fort worth in , , for a short time, about months, and my father was working in fort worth, but my mother and i, there was this big housing shortage after the war and we couldn't find a place to live, so we moved back to childress until my father was able to find us a place to live. that was in the summer of , as i recall now, because i started to school in the first grade in childress that fall. mr. liebeler. then you and your mother finally moved to fort worth? mr. vinson. yes; in the summer of , we moved to fort worth, and that fall i started to school in fort worth, and that would have been the second grade. mr. liebeler. you went to the first grade in childress? mr. vinson. yes. mr. liebeler. and you went to the second grade in what school? mr. vinson. lily b. clayton elementary school. mr. liebeler. where did you live in fort worth at that time? mr. vinson. seventh avenue. mr. liebeler. do you have any brothers or sisters? mr. vinson. i have one brother. mr. liebeler. older or younger? mr. vinson. younger. mr. liebeler. how old is he? mr. vinson. three. mr. liebeler. while you were in attendance at the lily b. clayton school, did you know another student by the name of lee oswald? mr. vinson. i did. mr. liebeler. can you remember when you first met him? mr. vinson. no. mr. liebeler. why don't you tell us everything that you can in your own words about what you remember about lee oswald as you knew him in the second grade? mr. vinson. well, i have no idea when i first saw him or actually became acquainted with him. the best i remember, he was there when i got there, and it was my understanding that he had already been there before i got there. in other words, all the other kids knew him from the previous year. the thing that stands out most in my mind about him is that when we would go outside for unsupervised play, when we weren't engaged in games supervised by the teacher, where we were just turned loose and allowed to do what we wanted to, we would break down into little groups, and i remember the boys called them gangs. we used to say, "are you in so-and-so's gang", and there were several key people, all boys in the class, who seemed to, i don't know if they were organizers, or just somehow assumed the responsibility of being the leaders. but there were, i couldn't say how many, maybe three or four boys who, you know, acted as leaders of these gangs, as we called them, and i recall fairly vividly that lee oswald was one of the leaders of one of these gangs. and we would do, one gang would start chasing the other gang. it was just a bunch of horseplay, horsing around. mr. liebeler. how many kids were involved in this altogether? mr. vinson. well, the boys in our class. mr. liebeler. the boys in your second grade? mr. vinson. in our second grade class, and i venture to say there may be or so. mr. liebeler. fifteen? mr. vinson. well, now, you mean in the class? mr. liebeler. yes. mr. vinson. i imagine from the way classes generally run, they were--there were probably about students in our room, in our class, and i can't remember whether the boys outnumbered the girls or not, but i would say maybe or , or maybe a little less boys. and maybe these so-called gangs would just include two or three people in addition to the leader. this has been so long ago that it is very vague, but i do remember this. and i remember that oswald was pretty stocky and well built, and it seemed that the other boys used to look up to his--let me start over. they seemed to look up to him because he was so well built and husky and everything and it seemed like all the rest of us were a bunch of little guys, but i remember we would make reference to lee being big and strong and this sort of thing. and this could be because, from what i judge, he was a little bit older than most of the boys, almost a year. the age makes a little more difference at that period than later on. and it seemed that this so-called gang that he was head of seemed to be the top one, and all the boys would look up to anybody that was a member of his little group. and they seemed to look up to him and he was considered sort of a tough-guy type, although not as a bully. mr. liebeler. he wasn't a bully? mr. vinson. not that i remember. i don't think he was at all because i remember several other boys who were, and i just don't recall that he had any tendencies like that. mr. liebeler. do you remember him getting into any fights with anybody? mr. vinson. no; none other than just playful fights, just wrestling out on the schoolground. really not out of anger. mr. liebeler. he never had any occasion to fight with these other boys who you have described as bullies? mr. vinson. not that i recall. mr. liebeler. were you a member of oswald's gang? mr. vinson. no; i wasn't. mr. liebeler. do you remember the names of any of the fellows who were? mr. vinson. no; i don't. like i say, this was just a playlike sort of thing, you know, and i don't know that. mr. liebeler. can you remember anything else about oswald and these out-of-school activities? mr. vinson. i don't remember anything about him out of school. mr. liebeler. i mean out of the classroom? mr. vinson. out of the classroom, no; i don't know. in the classroom, i don't think he was a discipline problem at that time, because the teacher we had was pretty much of a hot-headed lady. or maybe i shouldn't say that. maybe not hot headed, but she was a teacher and she had a big paddle and she kept that in the cloakroom, and i remember that certain boys repeatedly got the treatment, and i don't remember oswald ever having this happen to him. he might have been called down for talking or something. of course just about everybody is for one time or another, but he seemed very--my recollection of him, he seemed fairly quiet. just he didn't make a lot of noise. he didn't brag or shoot off his mouth a lot. he just seemed to be a quiet type of kid. mr. liebeler. do you think that his position as gangleader or one of the gangleaders was the result of just his physical size? mr. vinson. yes; i think that had a great deal to do with it. i think he was not tall. i was looking at our class picture, and there were several others that were taller and actually all around bigger than he was, but he was just sort of solidly built, just sort of stocky. and this is something that i don't really remember. i was talking to our teacher later on who, incidentally, said she did not remember him at all. mr. liebeler. what is her name? mr. vinson. mrs. florine murphy, and she still teaches the second grade at that school, and she said she had talked to another boy in the class who had remembered him. mr. liebeler. did she tell you what his name was? mr. vinson. bill barnes. mr. liebeler. do you know barnes? mr. vinson. i know who he is. i remember that he was in my room that year. we moved from that area uptown, and i only went to that school year, and i remember his name, and i remember who he was, and i had occasion to see him several other times in fort worth. he went to tcu over there, and i think he was a cheerleader or something, and i saw him at the tcu football games, and i just had run across him several times, but recently not to speak to him. i just saw him and remembered that he was in my room at grade school. mr. liebeler. have you discussed with him his recollection of oswald? mr. vinson. no; i didn't. i couldn't get hold of him. mr. liebeler. did you try? mr. vinson. yes; i think i didn't try hard enough. i think i just didn't get an answer at the house or something. mr. liebeler. did mrs. murphy tell you what conversation she had with barnes about oswald? mr. vinson. let me back up a minute. i believe she told me that she talked to barnes' mother rather than barnes himself, and barnes' mother repeated something that barnes had told her about remembering oswald. mr. liebeler. well, for whatever it is worth, what did mrs. murphy tell you that mrs. barnes had told her, that bill barnes had told his mother about oswald? mr. vinson. well, this really apparently has no bearing on the thing, but it just goes along with the whole business. barnes said that he remembered oswald, and he remembered that the boy used to always ask him why he was so big and strong and he replied in the manner of popeye, "i eat me spinach". that i do remember, although as far as oswald speaking is concerned, i recall that i thought his dialect was a little unusual, and he would say things like "give me dat," or "dis" for this, and i took somehow i took, or associated this with new england or new york or brooklyn or something, and i think this sort of substantiated my opinion of him as a tough guy, because at that time all the gangster movies, all the gangsters were always from brooklyn and talked with a brooklyn or sort of dialect, and somehow i thought this made him tough. but i later found out, of course, that he had lived in new orleans and possibly this had something to do with it, or possibly there was a speech impediment. i don't know, but i do remember that was what--was one thing that i do recall about him was the way he spoke. mr. liebeler. apparently from what you have told us, he didn't have any particular difficulty getting along with the other boys? mr. vinson. not that i recall at all. now, i don't know what he did after--outside of school. like i say, to my knowledge, i knew a good many of the boys in the class, and to my knowledge, none of them ever played with him or went to his house for anything after school. they could have, but i don't know. mr. liebeler. did that seem strange to you at all, in view of the fact that oswald was referred to as a leader on the school ground? mr. vinson. it didn't at the time. however, it did later, it seemed strange now. i don't recall that i thought anything at all about it at the time. mr. liebeler. but you knew of none of the boys who ever went to oswald's house or associated with him outside of the classroom or outside of the playground, at that time? mr. vinson. i knew of none, that is right. mr. liebeler. do you know where oswald lived? mr. vinson. i didn't, but i somehow had the notion perhaps i had seen him walking home, but i had an idea about where he lived, about where i thought he lived, however, i don't know. i never went to his house or i never knew anyone who did, or anything like that. mr. liebeler. did you know whether oswald had any brothers or sisters? mr. vinson. no. mr. liebeler. did you ever see oswald after you left the second grade at lily b. clayton school and moved away to another section at fort worth? mr. vinson. if i did, i don't recall. it is possible, because i do recall that i ran across several of the kids that i had gone to school with over there after i moved away, but i don't know whether he was one of them. i just don't remember. mr. liebeler. what school did you go to? what school after you left lily b. clayton? mr. vinson. g. e. talldy elementary school. mr. liebeler. did you go to high school from elementary school? mr. vinson. no. i went to that school from the third grade to the sixth grade, and then to junior high for years. mr. liebeler. what junior high. mr. vinson. meadowbrook junior high. mr. liebeler. is that in fort worth, also? mr. vinson. yes. mr. liebeler. and from there you went to high school? mr. vinson. polytechnic high school. mr. liebeler. also in fort worth? mr. vinson. yes. mr. liebeler. have you gone to college? mr. vinson. yes. mr. liebeler. where? mr. vinson. i went to two colleges. i went to arlington state college. mr. liebeler. for how long? mr. vinson. well, it is broken up into a couple of segments. i went there in the fall of , and the spring of . the fall of and the spring of . part of the summer of . half of the summer, one semester. i did not go to college at all in the fall of . then in the spring of i went back to arlington state college, and in the fall of , i went to arlington state college, and the spring of i transferred to north texas university in denton. i went there that semester, both semesters, all of , and the spring of . the spring of --excuse me, and half of the summer of . mr. liebeler. did you graduate from that school? mr. vinson. yes. mr. liebeler. what did you major in? mr. vinson. journalism. mr. liebeler. have you ever met anybody since you moved away from lily b. clayton that knew oswald either at lily b. clayton or anywhere else? mr. vinson. i talked on the telephone to richard garrett. i wrote an article in the star telegram dealing with the fact that i had gone to school with oswald in the second grade, and i couldn't pin it down and we really went off half-cocked without being certain when i wrote the story, when the story was published, although i did remember the name, and i had the class picture, and we compared it with some later class pictures, and we were all convinced it was the same person, although i could never find the teacher that--the day i was trying to do this and i couldn't get access to any records showing that he had gone there in the second grade. but nevertheless, i went ahead and did the article, but i was trying to contact everyone i could who had known him, to see if they could help me, and i talked to richard garrett who is mentioned in the life magazine story. he had known of oswald in the sixth grade, and he had seen oswald again when oswald came to arlington heights high school for a short time, and he told me just a few things. i didn't talk to him long. i asked him, of course, if he recalled what elementary schools he had gone to, and he said that he didn't, although he knew that he had gone to some others in fort worth. mr. liebeler. he, being oswald? mr. vinson. yes. mr. liebeler. where did garrett know of oswald in the sixth grade? was that lily b. clayton? mr. vinson. no. oswald left lily b. clayton, according to don jackson who wrote this life article. he did some real extensive research on it. i see you have a copy there. mr. liebeler. you are referring to the article on oswald which appears in the february , , issue of life magazine, is that correct? mr. vinson. yes. on page , it quotes garrett. it was the fifth and sixth grades. i was trying to find which school it was. i believe it was ridglea west elementary school. mr. liebeler. did garrett tell you this or you just said this on the basis of the article? mr. vinson. yes, he told me this, too. well, actually, i can't remember offhand, but i was just trying to refer to this to see if this is accurate, and i feel sure, i believe it was ridglea west. mr. liebeler. would it be the george clark elementary school? mr. vinson. no. that was another year. mr. liebeler. i believe oswald did originally go to that school? mr. vinson. yes. ridglea west elementary was mrs. clyde livingston. and then it mentioned his fourth grade marks revealed a downward trend. mr. liebeler. what else did you talk to garrett about? mr. vinson. well, as far as the school is concerned, i don't remember offhand. i think it was ridglea west. garrett told me that he had known oswald in the fifth and sixth grades, or i believe that is what he says in here. i believe he told me specifically the sixth, and then he said that he saw him again in high school when oswald came to high school at arlington heights high school. and he said he approached him, that oswald approached garrett something to the effect that, asked him if he remembered him from grade school, and i believe garrett said that he didn't at first, but after awhile, he finally thought back and remembered who he was. and he told me that oswald mentioned something about communism to him somehow. he was trying to sell garrett on the idea of communism. mr. liebeler. that was while oswald was in the arlington high school? mr. vinson. that was what garrett said, and garrett said he went to the principal about this, and he said that a few days later he did not see oswald any more, and he didn't know if he had been withdrawn or expelled or what the situation was. mr. liebeler. he never associated with oswald to any particular degree at this point? mr. vinson. not at this point. he said he "shied away from him after he gave me this communism pitch." mr. liebeler. did garrett tell you when this was? what grade in high school he was in? mr. vinson. if he did, i don't recall. i think it was the sophomore year in high school, the th grade. it says in this article, but if this has got to come from my recollection, i would think it was the th grade. mr. liebeler. did garrett tell you anything else? mr. vinson. that is all. i just let him go because he couldn't help me much. somebody else was already doing the story on him and what he remembered about him, and i was just trying to pin down what school oswald went to in the second grade, at that time. mr. liebeler. you said that you yourself wrote an article in the fort worth newspaper about your own acquaintanceship with oswald in the second grade? mr. vinson. yes. mr. liebeler. do you have a copy of that with you? mr. vinson. no; i don't. i thought about bringing one, but i don't know if that would be needed or not, since what i am telling you is in effect what i said in there. i don't think there is anything i haven't told you that is in there, with the exception, i think i mentioned something in there that it seemed to me that he didn't make very good grades. now this was just something i am not sure of, but that is just the way it seemed. and i mentioned something else that to the best of my memory he read fairly well when the students were called on to read aloud. i don't recall that he had any difficulty, because i remember several who did, and he was not among those that i recall as having trouble along those lines. mr. liebeler. other than garrett, had you ever met anybody or talked to anybody who knew oswald? mr. vinson. no; i hadn't. well, excuse me, yes, i have, too, on the telephone. i talked to mrs. livingston who is mentioned in this story. some people from life contacted me that saw the story i had in the star telegram, and asked me to help try to locate some of the people in fort worth for their story, and i made a few phone calls for them, and i did talk to mrs. livingston. but what i talked to her about was not about oswald himself, but rather we were trying to locate a class picture, and we didn't talk about his personality or anything. it was just who had a picture that life could borrow. mr. liebeler. did you find one? mr. vinson. yes. don jackson, the author of the story came down, and at that time she said she didn't know of any. however, jackson came down and went and talked to her and he turned up with these two down at the bottom of the page. one which shows him on the playground, and the other which shows mrs. livingston with a dog that oswald had given her. mr. liebeler. you are referring to pages -b and , of the life magazine which we mentioned above? mr. vinson. right. mr. liebeler. do you recognize the scene in this picture on page -b? mr. vinson. no; because that was not when i was in the second grade, or in the same school with him. i believe that was in the fourth grade. maybe the third. mr. liebeler. the scene is not familiar to you and does not appear to be near the lily b. clayton school? mr. vinson. no; it doesn't. mr. liebeler. did you talk to jackson personally in connection with this article? mr. vinson. yes. mr. liebeler. you told him essentially what you have told us and what he has reported to you as having said on page -b? in the article, is that correct? mr. vinson. yes. excuse me, could you ask me that again i am not sure i understand. mr. liebeler. you told him essentially what you have told us and what he has reported you as having said on page -b, in the article, is that correct? mr. vinson. what he reported to me as having said is taken from the story that i wrote in the star telegram. mr. liebeler. you did not tell him this personally? mr. vinson. i did tell him in effect in my own words, but rather than use what i told him, i don't know why, for some reason he just quoted from my story. he didn't attribute that statement to the story. however, i noticed---- mr. liebeler. but it is a direct quote of what you had said in your story in the fort worth star? mr. vinson. i believe the story is slightly changed toward the end of the paragraph. let me look at it. where it says according to our code, i believe the wording was, "according to the code of us - and -year olds being in lee's gang was a high honor." i believe that is about the only big change. mr. liebeler. did you have any other conversations with jackson about oswald other than what we have discussed here about oswald? mr. vinson. well, about what i knew of oswald? mr. liebeler. yes. mr. vinson. well, one day he came by the office in arlington and talked to me for about an hour, and i told him what i have told you about what i remembered about oswald, and then i gave him the information that i had gathered about some other people who possibly had pictures. and this was something else i was getting around to. i did talk to some of the people named in this story, in fort worth, in an attempt to get some pictures, and he went to--went ahead and contacted them anyway after i had already talked to them. he was a little more persistent than i was, and it is his story and his job, and i was just doing it in my spare time, but i didn't get too far in locating any pictures, and he decided to go ahead and try a little harder with some of the people that i had already talked to. one of whom was nick ruggieri, who at that time, or at the time oswald came to high school, was b-team football coach at arlington heights high school, and oswald had come out for football. now this is not what ruggieri told me. this is what jackson told me and what i have read in the story. mr. liebeler. did you talk to ruggieri? mr. vinson. yes; i did. mr. liebeler. did you discuss this with him? mr. vinson. yes. and he told me he barely remembered the kid, something to that effect. he said he had come out for a few days and just didn't show up after awhile. there is something in the story i think, that gives that, and i think it quotes another coach who said he quoted oswald as saying it was a free country, or something, that he didn't have to run sprints, if he didn't want to, or something to that effect. mr. liebeler. when you talked to ruggieri, he didn't mention anything about that, did he? mr. vinson. no; he didn't. he just brushed it aside very hurriedly. he didn't remember much about it except he had come out for the b-team and he had disappeared after a few days. mr. liebeler. on page , of the article, ruggieri is quoted as saying, "i told the boy myself that if he wanted to play, he had to finish practice with a sprint, just like the others. "he gave me the same answer. i told him to hand in his cleats." the answer refers to a statement that oswald is reported to have made to ruggieri that he, oswald, would not sprint with the other boys, saying that this was a free country and he didn't have to run if he didn't want to. did you ever discuss this subject with ruggieri? mr. vinson. no; i didn't. i don't know if he was just being evasive and didn't want to answer me, or what. but like i say, i didn't press him for any direct information about oswald, but i just casually asked if he knew him. i believe i didn't even ask him anything specifically about oswald. i called him and told him who i was and that life magazine asked me to try to locate some pictures for them of oswald, and i asked him did he know of any existing that i might be able to make arrangements for life to get ahold of, and i think he just volunteered that he didn't remember much about oswald, and i didn't press it. but apparently jackson talked to him and he was a little more free to speak with jackson than he was with me. mr. liebeler. has the fbi ever talked to you? mr. vinson. no. mr. liebeler. secret service? mr. vinson. the only time the secret service talked to me was last night when he called and asked me to come over here. mr. liebeler. can you think of anything else that we haven't covered that you think would be helpful to the commission's work as far as your knowledge of oswald is concerned, or your discussions with others about oswald? mr. vinson. the only thing that i can think of offhand, this has probably been brought to your attention, i don't know--i feel sure it has--of the allegation by another magazine that this picture on the cover of life is a composite picture and is not really the actual thing, that they somehow acquired the picture of somebody else holding the rifle and somehow got ahold of the picture of his head and glued it on. i didn't read this. this was in newsweek. i didn't read it. i was told about it. mr. liebeler. yes; that matter has already come to the attention of the commission. mr. vinson. there was one other thing that i noticed also. maybe i am wrong and i should possibly go back and reread this before i make any statements but i notice in the picture there is a scope on the rifle, and it was my understanding that the rifle came to him without a scope, and he didn't buy a scope until the fall of , and it says in the magazine this picture was made in the spring of , apparently shortly after he bought the rifle. i think it says he bought it in march. mr. liebeler. where did you learn that the rifle did not have a scope on it when he bought it? mr. vinson. i think this just was something that came out in my discussion with some other reporters, or just in casual conversation just--somebody just made the observation. mr. liebeler. have you seen a newspaper report to the effect that a telescopic sight was mounted on the rifle for somebody by the name of oswald by the irving sports shop? mr. vinson. no. the only one i know about was the place in grand prairie, unless i got my facts all crossed up. i was thinking the only scope i knew about was mounted, i thought was mounted at the range out in grand prairie. is that correct? was there one mounted there? mr. liebeler. not as far as anybody else knows. mr. vinson. maybe i am confused. i guess i am confused about it, but i think there was something in this article that mentioned him having the scope mounted on his rifle at a specific time, which i thought was in the fall of ' . mr. liebeler. there may well be something to that effect, but that doesn't necessarily make it so. mr. vinson. i know. mr. liebeler. but you have no direct knowledge, you haven't talked to anybody that ever mounted a scope or claimed to have mounted a scope for oswald? mr. vinson. no. my connection with the whole thing has not amounted to anything. i came to dallas the day of the assassination because my newspaper sent practically everybody over here. i was at the police station. i am not a photographer. however, i carry a camera, and i was sent to the dallas police station to take pictures, because i was the only one in the vicinity with a camera at that time. and i stayed there until the photographer arrived, with my camera, and just sort of generally ran errands. i didn't do any actual reporting, but that was when it first came to my attention. well, let me rephrase that. when i heard the name lee oswald, when the reporter said that the best suspect they had in custody was lee oswald, immediately it rang a bell, and almost immediately i remembered when i had heard it, and i associated it with my second grade class, and i even mentioned it to some of the reporters over there that day, over here that day. mr. liebeler. unless there is anything else that you can remember about your contacts with oswald or your conversations with others about him that you think would be helpful, i have no other questions at this point, i would like to thank you for coming over from fort worth on such short notice. mr. vinson. i am happy to do it. mr. liebeler. the commission appreciates your cooperation. testimony of hiram conway the testimony of hiram conway was taken at : a.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. albert e. jenner, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. robert t. davis, assistant attorney general of texas, was present. mr. jenner. would you mind rising and being sworn. do you in the testimony you are about to give swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? mr. conway. i do. mr. jenner. i am albert e. jenner, jr. i am a member of the legal staff of the warren commission about which you have heard. the warren commission was authorized by a senate joint resolution of the congress of the united states to be created to investigate the circumstances leading to and surrounding the assassination of our late president john fitzgerald kennedy. pursuant to that legislation president lyndon b. johnson by executive order , november , appointed the commission to investigate the assassination of president kennedy. the chief justice of the united states, the honorable earl warren is the chairman of that commission and the commission has come to be known as the warren commission. the commission is charged with sifting out the facts from fiction and to inquire into many, many details, one of which deals with a man whose name is lee harvey oswald, during his lifetime. we understand you had some contact with a man by that name? mr. conway. yes. mr. jenner. and we want to ask you a few questions about it. mr. conway. i will be glad to answer them. mr. jenner. all right. mr. conway, you are hiram conway and you are a native texan, are you? mr. conway. yes. mr. jenner. what is your age? mr. conway. i'm , will be next month. mr. jenner. i will be next june. you reside in fort worth, tex.? mr. conway. yes. mr. jenner. and your business, occupation, or profession is what? mr. conway. tool inspector for general dynamics. mr. jenner. the general dynamics corp.? mr. conway. yes, sir. mr. jenner. off the record. (discussion between counsel jenner and the witness conway off the record.) mr. jenner. back on the record. how long have you held that position as tool inspector for gd? mr. conway. i am sorry--will take me a moment to think. mr. jenner. all right. mr. conway. it was in , august , when i went to work there--in --august , , and sometime in november, i believe the th, is when i went into tool inspection. that's approximate. mr. jenner. do you have any connection with leslie welding co., at any time? mr. conway. with what? mr. jenner. with leslie welding co.? [spelling] l-e-s-l-i-e. mr. conway. no, sir. mr. jenner. do you know a man by the name of tommy bargas? mr. conway. i can't recall--i don't recall that name tom bargas--i don't recall the name. mr. jenner. did you ever become acquainted with or have any contact with a man known as lee harvey oswald? mr. conway. yes. mr. jenner. would you tell us the circumstances and what occurred? mr. conway. well, he was a child when he moved into our neighborhood. mr. jenner. in fort worth? mr. conway. yes; where i live at the present time, and he moved in two doors from me, , i believe it was two houses. mr. jenner. ewing? mr. conway. ewing; yes, sir. mr. jenner. and that is a single-family frame dwelling? mr. conway. yes, sir; two bedrooms and a single bath, kitchen and dining room together. mr. jenner. all right. mr. conway. i'm not absolutely sure when they moved in there. mr. jenner. you say "they," who is that? mr. conway. his mother and his older brother, who is a half brother. mr. jenner. john pic? mr. conway. yes; his oldest brother, and then robert oswald. mr. jenner. so, there were three boys and a mother? mr. conway. that's right. mr. jenner. was there a husband or father? mr. conway. no; there was no man about the house. john was the oldest one on the place. mr. jenner. and about how old was he at that time? mr. conway. i believe he was around or . mr. jenner. let's see, let's see--what year was that? mr. conway. oh, it must have been--i'm not quite sure, but i moved there in , and i'm not sure--i moved there in september or october. mr. jenner. october of ? mr. conway. and i'm not sure whether they moved there before the end of the year or not, but it was just shortly after i moved there. mr. jenner. he was born october , , so in , at the time you are talking about, he would be approximately years old. mr. conway. approximately--yes, sir. mr. jenner. you had children at that time? mr. conway. i had one daughter. mr. jenner. age? mr. conway. well, at that time, i'm almost ashamed--i don't know exactly when my daughter was born-- , i believe, so that would be . mr. jenner. about years old? mr. conway. yes. mr. jenner. so your daughter would have had little or no contact with lee who was then years old? mr. conway. no; very little. she was associated quite a bit with john. she and john were approximately the same age. i believe john might have been slightly older than her, maybe - / or years, i'm not quite sure. mr. jenner. your daughter is now married? mr. conway. yes. mr. jenner. what is her married name? mr. conway. mrs. j. c. bell (spelling) b-e-l-l. mr. jenner. where does she live? mr. conway. she lives on santa fe, i think, it's . mr. jenner. do you recall her telephone number? mr. conway. ci - , it would be--circle. i'm almost sure that's right. mr. jenner. is mrs. conway living? mr. conway. yes. mr. jenner. how long did the family live there? mr. conway. how long did they live there? mr. jenner. yes. mr. conway. i think almost years--it was in the vicinity of years. it might have been just a little over or a little under, but it was approximately years. mr. jenner. and did these boys come to your attention? mr. conway. oh, yes; john was a real nice kid and he was a friend of mine, you know, a young friend. i taught him to play chess. mr. jenner. you did? mr. conway. yes; i did, and he made an excellent player, i understand. i think he's runner-up in the championship at lackland air force base. mr. jenner. is that so? mr. conway. i think so--john is a fine fellow. mr. jenner. and because of your relationship especially with john pic, you came to know the other boys, too? mr. conway. yes, sir; fairly well. mr. jenner. in and around the neighborhood? mr. conway. yes, sir. mr. jenner. but having in mind lee oswald, at the age of , and by the time he left, he was , you had less contact with him? mr. conway. i had very little contact with him, just to see him in the neighborhood was all. mr. jenner. did that contact in the neighborhood enable you to form a judgment as to his general disposition? mr. conway. yes. mr. jenner. would you describe that and tell us something--some incidents about it? mr. conway. well, he was quick to anger and he was, i would say, a vile nature--he was mean when he was angry, just ornery--he was vicious almost, you might say, is the best word i can describe it. mr. jenner. did it come to your particular attention as contrasted with his two brothers, robert and john? mr. conway. yes; john was a very genuine character, a fine boy. mr. jenner. what about robert? mr. conway. robert was much more spunky than john, but robert didn't very often get into much trouble. mr. jenner. nothing like lee? mr. conway. no; he didn't walk up and down the street looking for children to throw stones at, like lee did. he was a bad kid. mr. jenner. did he get into kid fights and encounters with children in the neighborhood? mr. conway. yes; he would become angry with them but as far as actually seeing him fight--the children didn't fight with him much, they got out of his way. they would hide or move on and it would be pretty hard to catch him in a fight because it would be pretty hard for him to have caught one of them. mr. jenner. was this a persistent sort of thing over a period of years or were they isolated incidences? mr. conway. naturally, it's hard to say, but i would see those things not too often, but you know that was just the picture it built in my mind. i didn't see him very often--i have seen him try to fight with his half brother and his brother and he would tear into them and they would hold him off to try to keep him out of trouble and he would try to kick their shins, just all sort of things like that--i don't--it's been a long time. mr. jenner. was he left alone a good deal? mr. conway. yes, sir; quite a lot. mr. jenner. describe that circumstance, will you please? mr. conway. that would be hard for me to describe to you too accurately because no more than i know about it, but i do know he would get home--i would hear the boys, one of them say to the other one, "where is lee," and they would say, "he's in the house," or something like that and that's about all i would know. but i would see him in and out. he had a dog that he was very fond of, lee did, and i would see him play with the dog around the place and i would have reason for accurate knowledge that there was no one there but him, but so far as just being absolutely sure--i'm not. mr. jenner. do you have a recollection now whether mrs. oswald, his mother, worked? mr. conway. yes, sir; she did work and i have heard my wife speak of where she worked, but i don't recall. she worked days and i usually worked nights--i usually worked nights. mr. jenner. so you were around the neighborhood, was that true, of this -year period as a rule? mr. conway. i believe it was. i'm not absolutely sure but i believe it was. mr. jenner. at least off and on during the -year period you did work nights? mr. conway. i'm almost sure that i did. mr. jenner. so that you would get to see these boys in the daytime and after school at least? mr. conway. it's funny, but i'm not so--not absolutely sure what year i started working nights. i know i worked nights before i moved to fort worth and i moved to fort worth from grand prairie in , and that was the--was before the oswalds came, and i know i worked nights before they moved into that neighborhood and i took a preference to the second shift, so i did work the second shift at all times when it was possible since that time. it's more than likely that i was on the second shift almost all times they were there. mr. jenner. did a time come when the family moved? mr. conway. yes; and i don't remember exactly what year it was but it must have been in or . mr. jenner. if they came in , and they were there years, that would be . mr. conway. yes, sir. mr. jenner. now; had either of the older boys already left before the family moved? mr. conway. well---- mr. jenner. take this boy who you took a particular interest in--john pic. mr. conway. john went into the coast guard at sometime and it seems to me that he joined the coast guard before they moved away, but i'm awful cloudy on that. mr. jenner. well, have you exhausted your recollection on that? mr. conway. well, i don't know--i remember talking to john--john, when he is in this part of the country, he comes to my house and i remember talking to him about it and he was quite enthusiastic about the coast guard, but that's after he had been in the service sometime. i believe he left before his mother did. he left and went into the coast guard before his mother moved away. mr. jenner. you--could you refresh your recollection that he did leave before the mother and lee left? mr. conway. i believe i remember that. mr. jenner. and he was in the coast guard and stationed in new york? mr. conway. yes. mr. jenner. new york city, staten island, as a matter of fact? mr. conway. well, i didn't know. he married a girl in new york city and i believe--i believe my wife told me that mrs. oswald told her that she was going to new york on account of john being there. after john left, i didn't have much contact with them at all, because john was my contact with them. mr. jenner. do you recall whether robert was still with the family when mrs. oswald picked up and left? or had he also entered the service? mr. conway. that, i don't recall. mr. jenner. you would be very helpful to us, if you would give us the names of some children at or about his age, who are still around this vicinity, whom you think might recall him. mr. conway. what year did you say he was born in? mr. jenner. , october . mr. conway. ---- mr. jenner. if he were alive, he would be approaching years of age--this would be his th year and he would be years old next october. mr. conway. well, i have discussed it with the masseys, they live across the street. mr. jenner. give me their full name and address and telephone number, if you will? mr. conway. and they don't remember it. it is h. r. massey. what i was fixing to say, i was trying to eliminate the neighborhood house by house. the masseys don't remember--i don't believe barbara anne does, barbara anne would be their daughter and she is approximately his age, but i heard her say that she didn't remember him at all. mr. jenner. is barbara anne living with her folks? mr. conway. no, sir; she's married now. i don't know what her last name is. mr. jenner. well, maybe i could find out from her mother, mr. and mrs. h. r. massey. mr. conway. [spelling] m-a-s-s-e-y. mr. jenner. and they live across the street from you? mr. conway. that's right--they live at ewing. mr. jenner. do i have your permission to talk with mrs. conway? mr. conway. oh, yes; i suggested that she come with me and save a trip. mr. jenner. yes, that would have been nice. mr. conway. i don't know why she wouldn't but she knows what she wants to do. mr. jenner. i probably would like to have her come down tomorrow, if she is free, tomorrow afternoon. mr. conway. well, my wife's brother passed away last week, and it has been a considerable shock to her and she is on tranquilizers and her memory isn't as good as it would be if she wasn't in such a strain. mr. jenner. well, you mention it to her when you get home and i'll call out home sometime tonight? mr. conway. all right. mr. jenner. and we will leave it up to her? mr. conway. i'm sure she would be glad to do all she could. mr. jenner. can you think of any others? mr. conway. the turners, they just live--oh, bill bridges would be the age of john pic. he was just another one of the kids in the neighborhood that i taught to play chess at the same time, but he was older and there was no other children in that range, and john is as old as my daughter. mr. jenner. well, i might talk with him on the telephone. mr. conway. i don't know where he lives. he is with halliburton, i believe, and when he is in town he comes by to see me, too. mr. jenner. is that halliburton, tex.? mr. conway. no; that's halliburton oil co. i don't know where the home office is. mr. jenner. have you seen him around fort worth? mr. conway. bill? mr. jenner. yes. mr. conway. the last time i saw him he came to my house and brought his family and it's been quite a little while ago. mr. jenner. his first name is william and his last name is what? mr. conway. bridges (spelling) b-r-i-d-g-e-s. mr. jenner. well, we will look in the telephone book and maybe we can find him that way. mr. conway. he is with halliburton, i remember the last time i talked to him. mr. jenner. the older boys were attending high school and lee was attending elementary school, what elementary school is that? mr. conway. i'm sorry--i don't know. mr. jenner. and the high school? mr. conway. it would be arlington heights. these schools are changing so rapidly and increasing so until i just don't know. mr. jenner. during this period of time, did you become acquainted with marguerite oswald, the mother of lee oswald? mr. conway. yes; i knew mrs. oswald. she was in my house a few times. mr. jenner. i wish you would give me, if you can, your impression of mrs. oswald, particularly with respect to the--to her care of these boys and lee oswald during this -year period. mr. conway. well, i think she was--my impression was that she felt burdened with them and i think she showed a selfish attitude towards her children. mr. jenner. selfish? mr. conway. selfish--yes, sir. mr. jenner. would you elaborate on that, what do you mean by that? mr. conway. well, i don't have words for it except that it appeared to me that she didn't dress them as well as she might. she didn't care--they were embarrassed about their dress. mr. jenner. they were? mr. conway. some of them were--john, especially and sometimes robert, i think, but they were very stoical, they could take it, they were good kids about it, you know. mr. jenner. did john speak to you on that subject? mr. conway. no, sir; john wouldn't ever say anything against his mother. my daughter told me that someone said something about--hearsay, you see, is about all i know about such things, but my daughter told me that she heard some of the kids mention to him that his mother should buy him better clothes or shoes or something and they didn't know why she didn't, or something like that and he shouldn't give her as much of the money he made when he was doing whatever work he did and he said, "she's my mother." he stood up for her and that's all he would say. mr. jenner. i take it from this remark that you just made that the boys, at least john, certainly john, did some work after school? mr. conway. john sold shoes, i think, he worked in a shoe store for a time. it seems to me at that time is when they were inaugurating this distributive education thing and i believe that's how he got his job. mr. jenner. and did robert work also? mr. conway. i don't know. mr. jenner. what about lee? mr. conway. i don't think so. robert would have if he could have gotten a job. mr. jenner. what was your impression of lee on that score, was he industrious or not? mr. conway. yes; he was--you mean robert? mr. jenner. no; i mean lee. was he industrious? mr. conway. i don't rightly know, i have lost contact with them and he was too small. mr. jenner. do you have any impression as to whether this was an emotional child? mr. conway. yes; he would become very angry and his face would flush and he would just storm at other children. mr. jenner. he was quick to anger? mr. conway. yes; quite quick. mr. jenner. and did he seem to be a sensitive, an overly sensitive child? mr. conway. i suppose so--i thought he was a very strange type of person and at the time i thought he was considerably above the average in intelligence around that age--being or or , i mean, to catch on and to notice and be able to learn to do little things. mr. jenner. what is your middle initial, do you have one? mr. conway. p. (spelling) p-i-e-r-c-e. mr. jenner. you probably wondered why i asked you about leslie welding co. do you know a man by the name of hiram l. conway with leslie welding in fort worth? mr. conway. no, i don't. i knew there was a hiram--that--there's more than one hiram conway, about three or four in fort worth, i understand. i never heard of leslie welding. mr. jenner. oswald worked for leslie welding at one time. mr. conway. he did? mr. jenner. we have an fbi report on an interview with hiram l. conway and that's why i started out with you on that. mr. conway. yes. mr. jenner. from the time that the oswalds left fort worth in , from that time on, did you ever see lee oswald? mr. conway. never saw him again. mr. jenner. or john? mr. conway. oh, yes; i see john. mr. jenner. he comes to visit you occasionally? mr. conway. john never comes to fort worth without coming to see me. mr. jenner. and robert? mr. conway. robert never comes to see me. mr. jenner. robert lives in fort worth. mr. conway. well, i don't ever see him at all. mr. jenner. he never comes back to pay you a visit? mr. conway. no. mr. jenner. and marguerite, have you seen her since they left? mr. conway. since when---- mr. jenner. since ? mr. conway. my wife has talked with her since then. just briefly. mr. jenner. since november d? mr. conway. no, it was just shortly before that, it wasn't but just a few days before that. i wouldn't think it was over or weeks. she ran into her in a department store. no, i don't believe that i saw mrs. oswald at all, but i'm not sure. i've seen her so many times on television and she looks just like she always did except a little heavier and a little older, but i don't recall having seen her, but i remember my wife did and she mentioned it to me. mr. jenner. does anything occur to you that i haven't been stimulated to ask you that you think might be of assistance to the commission in its work? mr. conway. when you were talking on the phone, i was trying to think of anything, but i don't recall anything, even worth mentioning or even to go with what you have. when i said that lee appeared to be a child that learned rapidly, he had picked up chess from bill bridges and john--you see, i taught bill and john to play chess and robert picked it up from them and then lee picked it up from them, and i think i remember hearing the boys say lee would beat them once in a while and he would become angry when he would lose a game. mr. jenner. you heard that, too? mr. conway. yes, i have heard he would become angry. mr. jenner. mr. conway, you have the privilege of reading your deposition after miss oliver has written it up and to sign it or to waive that privilege. mr. conway. well, i don't care anything about reading it--i know what i have said. mr. jenner. if there is nothing else, this will conclude your deposition. i certainly appreciate your coming in. testimony of mrs. lillian murret the testimony of mrs. lillian murret was taken on april , , at the old civil courts building, royal and conti streets, new orleans, la., by mr. albert e. jenner, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. mrs. lillian murret, french street, new orleans, la., after first being sworn by mr. albert e. jenner, testified as follows: mr. jenner. mrs. murret, you received, did you not, a letter from mr. rankin, general counsel of the president's commission? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. asking you voluntarily to appear here for the taking of your deposition. mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. and there was enclosed with that letter, was there not, three documents. mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. one was senate joint resolution no. , which is the legislation authorizing the creation of the presidential commission to investigate the assassination of john fitzgerald kennedy, our president; another was the executive order of president johnson appointing the commission and empowering it to proceed, the executive order being no. , and a copy of the rules and regulations for the taking of testimony, adopted by the commission itself. did you receive those? mrs. murret. yes, sir. mr. jenner. now, if you can remember, mrs. murret--and don't feel offended by this--but ordinarily witnesses do nod or shake their heads and that doesn't get into the record, so if you will answer right out, then it will be in the record. do you understand that? mrs. murret. yes, sir. mr. jenner. experienced court reporters like this gentleman do catch head nodding and head wagging, but technically they are not supposed to interpret the intent of the witness. do you understand that, mrs. murret? mrs. murret. i understand. mr. jenner. all right. i assume that you gathered from these documents that the commission was created and appointed to investigate all of the facts and circumstances surrounding the tragic event of november , , did you not? mrs. murret. yes, sir. mr. jenner. mr. liebeler and myself, we are attorneys on the legal staff of the commission. it is our task to investigate the life of lee harvey oswald from the time of his birth until his demise on the th of november, which was on a sunday, , which gives our commission a pretty broad area of investigation, so to speak, and one of our purposes in particular is to take the depositions of people such as you who in any way touched the life of lee harvey oswald or those with whom he was acquainted perhaps, either directly or collaterally. we understand from the fbi reports and otherwise, from fbi interviews with you, that you will be able to help us. mrs. murret. well, i will if i can. mr. jenner. all right. now, just sit back and relax. there's nothing going to happen to you. we just want to ask you what you know about oswald, his mother, and others with whom he came in contact, to your knowledge. mrs. murret. do you just want me to tell you what i know about his life? mr. jenner. yes; as far as you know. i will just ask you questions, and i believe it will help us if you just answer them to the best of your knowledge. i wonder if we might get the lady a glass of water. (glass of water given to witness.) mrs. murret, let me orient you for a moment. you are the sister of lee harvey oswald's mother, are you not? mrs. murret. yes; i am. mr. jenner. first, what was your maiden name, mrs. murret? mrs. murret. claverie. mr. jenner. how do you spell that? mrs. murret. c-l-a-v-e-r-i-e. mrs. jenner. and your first name is lillian? mrs. murret. yes, sir. mr. jenner. were you born in new orleans yourself? mrs. murret. new orleans; yes, sir. mr. jenner. and you have always lived in new orleans; is that right? mrs. murret. yes, sir. mr. jenner. were your brothers and sisters born here? mrs. murret. they were. mr. jenner. in new orleans? mrs. murret. yes, sir. mr. jenner. so that you all are native-born americans; is that right? mrs. murret. yes, sir; native to louisiana--cajuns. mr. jenner. cajun and american? mrs. murret. that's right. mr. jenner. then all of the family are native-born americans; is that right? mrs. murret. well, not my grandparents. mr. jenner. not your grandparents? mrs. murret. no. on my father's side were from france, and my grandparents on my mother's side were from germany. mr. jenner. now, mrs. murret, once in a while i may have to ask you a question which is a little personal, but please accept my word that it is in good faith and that it is pertinent to this investigation, and my first personal question is, would you tell us what your age is? mrs. murret. what my age is? mr. jenner. how old are you? mrs. murret. i will be in may, may . mr. jenner. and how old is marguerite? mrs. murret. i think she should be . mr. jenner. marguerite, i should say, is the sister of mrs. murret. now, i would like to have you tell me something about her, how many times she was married, to whom, in chronological order. mrs. murret. well, i will tell you all i know about her. i have known her all her life, you know. she was first married to edward john pic. mr. jenner. edward john pic? mrs. murret. that's right. mr. jenner. is that p-i-c? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. i think we have that as john edward pic. is there an explanation for that, do you think? mrs. murret. well, i think they just reversed the name around because the child is john edward, but i think the father's name was edward john, because i think they always called him eddie. now, i don't know which way it is. mr. jenner. all right. do you happen to recall when that marriage took place? mrs. murret. well, i wouldn't remember what year, you know, or anything like that, when the marriage took place. i know about how long they were married. i think they were married about years, but i'm not really too accurate as to years. mr. jenner. well, as closely as you can come to it. mrs. murret. i know what happened, but the dates i just don't recall exactly, because i had my own affairs to take care of, so i can't remember dates in her life, but anyway, she was married to eddie for years, we'll say---- mr. jenner. let me interrupt you for a minute. tell me something about that marriage. who was he? did the marriage, take place here? were you present? what do you know about that marriage? mrs. murret. i don't know too much about the marriage. i don't think it took place here. i just don't know anything about that. it might have taken place over on the gulf coast. i don't know if i am right on that or not. that has been so long ago, but marguerite did know eddie a very long time. mr. jenner. she had known him for some time before she married him? mrs. murret. oh, yes. mr. jenner. had you known him for some time before she married him? mrs. murret. yes, sir. mr. jenner. what was his business or occupation? mrs. murret. well, eddie worked for smith. i think they are stevedores. mr. jenner. what did he do as a stevedore? mrs. murret. well, i don't know what type of work he did. i think it was clerical work. i think he is still with the same people. mr. jenner. he is alive? mrs. murret. oh, yes. i think it's t. b. smith, or something like that. i don't know what the initials stand for. mr. jenner. t. as in thomas? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. and b. as in benny? mrs. murret. yes, sir. mr. jenner. smith? mrs. murret. smith, yes. mr. jenner. and you think edward john pic is still employed by them? mrs. murret. yes; he is--some kind of clerical work, as far as i know. the reason i know he is is because mr. murret, who works on the river, saw him out there, but it was from a distance. mr. jenner. your husband works on the riverfront, does he? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. were you married to your husband before or after marguerite married edward john pic? mrs. murret. i was already married. mr. jenner. you were already married then? mrs. murret. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and your husband does have an acquaintance with edward john pic, does he? mrs. murret. oh, no. he just maybe occasionally will see him from a distance, but he has never spoken with him. in fact, i don't think i would know eddie pic if i saw him on the street. that has been so long ago. i don't think i would recognize him myself. eddie pic was a very peculiar type of boy, you might say a person who did not talk unless you spoke to him, and they would come over to my home for dinner or something, and he would sit there all day long and he wouldn't say anything. now, i don't know whether all of this is important. i don't guess some of it is. mr. jenner. don't you worry about whether you think it is important or not, mrs. murret. we will decide that once we get all this information assembled. you just tell me what you know about all of this, anything that comes to your mind that you think might be important to the commission in this investigation. mrs. murret. well, at the beginning when she married eddie, she said he wasn't fair. he told marguerite that he was making more money than he was over there, and she had to go back to work. she worked for mr. sere. he was one of the lawyers in a law firm at that time, and marguerite worked for him. it was the firm of goldberg, kammer and somebody else--lawyers. mr. jenner. was sere a lawyer? mrs. murret. yes; they were all lawyers. they were three lawyers together. he was secretary there at first, but then he became a lawyer too. mr. jenner. how do you spell his name? mrs. murret. mr. sere? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. murret. s-e-r-e. mr. jenner. is mr. sere still alive? mrs. murret. he is not. mr. jenner. he is dead? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. all right. just go ahead now with what you know about marguerite's first marriage. mrs. murret. well, the way i understood it, and this is only what she told me now, i know nothing, you know, other than that--but she said eddie had lied to her about how much money he was making at this place, and that it was a very small salary that he made. he went out and rented a house in the city park section, which was very high rent, and then it seems like he signed a lease and all that, and then after that eddie must have told her in the meantime what he was making over at that place, and they couldn't possibly have stayed there and paid that rent on his salary, so she had to ask for her job back again, so they took her back again and then they paid for furniture that they got and so forth while she was working. mr. jenner. how old was she then? mrs. murret. well, let's see--john must be about years old now. mr. jenner. you mean her son john? mrs. murret. yes. they were married, i think, about maybe years before john was born. i don't know the dates or the times or anything, but you can figure that she is now, and john is . mr. jenner. well, she would have been when he was born, would that be about right? mrs. murret. twenty-six--i don't think she was that old; i don't know. mr. jenner. well, from is . mrs. murret. yes. well, she could have been, but i didn't think she was that old. i thought maybe she might have been around years old. let's see--well, john wasn't born until years after she was married, you see. mr. jenner. oh--well, that would be less , so that would be years. mrs. murret. yes; i think she was about then, or , somewhere in there. i didn't think she was yet. mr. jenner. so we can say that she was married when she was about years old; is that right? mrs. murret. yes; i think that's about right. mr. jenner. what was her formal education? mrs. murret. she had a high school education. mr. jenner. here in new orleans? mrs. murret. yes; mcdonogh high school. she lived with mr. pic, say about years, and then they moved into another location. mr. jenner. they first were in this apartment in the city park area? mrs. murret. well, that was during the time that she left mr. pic, previous to that. mr. jenner. let's start back. you said something about his having lied to her as to his income, did you not? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. then i believe you said he rented an apartment in the city park area; is that right? mrs. murret. that's right. mr. jenner. and she found when they went out there, or whatever occurred, that he was not able to pay the rent on the salary he was making; is that right? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. and so she went back to work. mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. now, she remained married to him and lived with him, didn't she? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. all right. they lived in the city park area how long? mrs. murret. i don't know how long they lived there. i really don't, but i was thinking of another time when she lived in the city park area. that was when i was referring to. mr. jenner. we can come to that later. let's just keep this in sequence, if you don't mind, and we'll cover all of it. mrs. murret. yes, sir; so then, they rented a house in another section. i have forgotten which section that was. mr. jenner. here in new orleans? mrs. murret. oh, yes; and it was during that time when she became pregnant. mr. jenner. was that when they had the house? mrs. murret. yes; while they were in this regular home, you know, that they rented. it was in the lower section. i forget what section it was, probably somewhere up in the carrollton section. mr. jenner. carrollton? mrs. murret. yes, sir; so then during that time she became pregnant, and i remember she came over to my house and she told me that she was pregnant, and asked what she was to do, that eddie refused to support her. she said that he refused to give her any money because of the fact that she was pregnant. mr. jenner. he didn't want any children? mrs. murret. he didn't want any children, that's right. mr. jenner. this would have been when they were married approximately years; would that be about right? mrs. murret. about years married, yes, sir; about that. mr. jenner. were you and marguerite generally, fairly close? mrs. murret. we were very close. mr. jenner. very close? mrs. murret. yes. when my mother died, she left six children, and we were all young. my brother was the eldest, and i came next, and marguerite was about or years old at that time, i think. mr. jenner. maybe at this point we should get the names of all your brothers and sisters. your father died when? mrs. murret. my father? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. murret. well, he died about years ago. mr. jenner. thirty-three years ago? mrs. murret. about that; yes. mr. jenner. that would be approximately ; is that about right? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. leaving your mother and you children, is that right? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. now, when did your mother die? mrs. murret. my mother died about . mr. jenner. oh, she preceded your father? mrs. murret. oh, yes. mr. jenner. so when your father died, you children were then orphans; is that right? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. at that time, when your father died, you were around years of age? mrs. murret. i was married when my father died. i had three children when my father died. one child was a baby. mr. jenner. now, could i have the names of just your family, that is yourself, your sisters, and your brothers? mrs. murret. i have two brothers. mr. jenner. two brothers? mrs. murret. and we were four sisters. mr. jenner. all right, now give me the brothers' names. mrs. murret. their names are charles and john. mr. jenner. charles claverie and john claverie? mrs. murret. that's right. mr. jenner. are they alive? mrs. murret. no; they died while at a very young age. they died months apart. mr. jenner. were they teenagers? mrs. murret. no. one boy was around possibly years old, and the other one was about around years old. the elder one contracted tuberculosis. that was during world war i. he was in the navy. mr. jenner. was that charles or john? mrs. murret. charles, and then john died; he also had tb. mr. jenner. and he died at age ? mrs. murret. around that; yes. mr. jenner. and you had four sisters, you say? mrs. murret. including myself. mr. jenner. yes; including yourself. mrs. murret. that's right. mr. jenner. all right. one sister was marguerite. mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. and yourself, lillian. mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. who else? mrs. murret. aminthe. mr. jenner. is that a-m-i-n-t-h-e? mrs. murret. yes, sir. mr. jenner. is that pronounced aminthe? mrs. murret. yes, sir; aminthe. mr. jenner. that sounds french, is it? mrs. murret. yes; it's french. mr. jenner. all right, what's the other sister's name? mrs. murret. pearl. she died. mr. jenner. pearl is dead? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. where is aminthe living at the present time? mrs. murret. aminthe is living in knoxville. mr. jenner. knoxville, tenn.? mrs. murret. tennessee, yes. mr. jenner. i take it charles was the oldest? mrs. murret. yes; and i was next. mr. jenner. you were next? mrs. murret. yes; john was next. mr. jenner. john was next? mrs. murret. yes; and then pearl and then marguerite, and then aminthe. mr. jenner. now, let me get those down by number. number one was charles, number two, that would be you, lillian. mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. john was third. mrs. murret. john was third, that's right. mr. jenner. marguerite was fourth? mrs. murret. fourth, and aminthe was fifth. mr. jenner. how about pearl? mrs. murret. oh, let's see--that's wrong. aminthe was sixth. mr. jenner. and pearl was fifth? mrs. murret. yes; pearl was fifth. no; that's still wrong. aminthe was sixth. marguerite was fifth, and pearl was fourth. mr. jenner. all right. now, i've got it. i will recite it now just so that we will have it straight in the record. there was charles, lillian, then john, then pearl, then marguerite, and then aminthe; is that right? mrs. murret. yes, sir. mr. jenner. how old was pearl when she died? mrs. murret. she died recently. she was about . mr. jenner. she was in her fifties? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. did she die of natural causes? mrs. murret. yes, sir. mr. jenner. i mean, she didn't have tuberculosis, or anything like that? mrs. murret. no. mr. jenner. what was the occupation of your father? mrs. murret. my father was a motorman for new orleans public service. he worked for them approximately around years. mr. jenner. when you say motorman, do you mean streetcar motorman? mrs. murret. yes. they had those handbrakes at that time, and he taken out the first mule car, i think--when they had mule cars, before they had the handbrakes on the cars. mr. jenner. all right. now, did any of you children have a formal education, beyond high school? mrs. murret. no. mr. jenner. did you all attend and finish high school, other than john who died when he was ? mrs. murret. no. mr. jenner. well, did john finish high school? mrs. murret. no. mr. jenner. did charles? mrs. murret. no. charles went in the navy during the wartime. he made about, oh, i don't know how many trips through germany, and he was on this transport when the united states seized the "frederick digross," and he wrote a beautiful history of his trip, and i loaned it out to someone, and i never did get it back. mr. jenner. how unfortunate. mrs. murret. yes; i never did get it back. it was really everything that happened on the trip coming and going from new york to germany, you know, back and forth. he was a gunner. mr. jenner. on the transport, or a battleship or destroyer or cruiser? mrs. murret. on the transport. mr. jenner. he was a gunner on a transport? mrs. murret. transport; yes, sir. mr. jenner. now, marguerite is alive and you are alive and aminthe is alive; is that right? mrs. murret. that's right. aminthe is alive too. mr. jenner. did you complete high school? mrs. murret. i did not. i didn't even go to high school. mr. jenner. you did not? mrs. murret. no. mr. jenner. did you complete elementary school? mrs. murret. yes, sir; i did. mr. jenner. what about pearl? mrs. murret. i don't think she went to high school. if she did, it was probably just a year or so. she was married at an early age. mr. jenner. i think you said that marguerite did complete high school, or did she? mrs. murret. i can't remember if she completed high school or not, but she may have. i really don't remember that. if she said she did, then she did. i can't remember because, you see, we were six children, and my mother died, and my father's sisters lived here and we had some cousins who used to come over and help us, you know, and of course, i being the eldest, i was pretty busy with everything in those days. we were just trying to keep the family together more or less. you see, my father wouldn't give any of the children up, and so forth, and so they used to come over and help us out and cook, and when i got old enough i took over, and when the others got old enough they would help out, and that went on and on. we did pretty well. we were a happy family. we were singing all the time, and i often say that we were much happier than the children are today, even though we were very poor. my father was a very good man. he didn't drink, and he was all for his family. he didn't make much salary, but we got along all right. mr. jenner. the reason i am inquiring into these things is that all of this will assist the commission in getting the background of the family and relatives of lee harvey oswald. the reason i am saying that is i don't want you to think i am just being curious. mrs. murret. no; i understand. mr. jenner. i am trying to find out the family background so that we can ascertain to what extent all of you were involved with lee harvey oswald. you understand? mrs. murret. yes. it's nothing i'm ashamed of. i'm glad i had the life i did, because i have something to look back to, because we were very happy. we didn't have anything and we just did the best we could, but we were all together and we worked together, and we made out all right. mr. jenner. i understand. now, was marguerite happy, or would you say she was resentful to any extent about anything, or what was her attitude and demeanor, as you recall it? just tell me about her personality. mrs. murret. no; i don't think she was resentful in any way. she was a very pretty child, a very beautiful girl, and she doesn't look today at all like she used to, you know. you wouldn't recognize her. mr. jenner. i think she's nice looking. mrs. murret. well, not like she was years ago. she was a very pretty girl, and i don't think that she was resentful of anybody. mr. jenner. there seems to be some inability on her part to get along with people. that's really what i am driving at. what do you know about that? mrs. murret. well, i found that i didn't get along with her myself all the time, because our ideas were different on things, and of course she was a person who if you disagreed with her or if you expressed an opinion that she didn't agree with, then she would insist that you were wrong. mr. jenner. how do you and marguerite get along now? mrs. murret. well, we get along very well, if one or the other don't say nothing. you see, i am forgiving, but she is not. mr. jenner. tell me more about that. tell me about when you were girls, and how you got along then. mrs. murret. well, when we were girls, we got along. mr. jenner. well, did you have to give in in order to get along with her, anything like that? mrs. murret. i guess i was too busy taking care of five children to think about anything like that. i mean, i didn't realize anything like that. we did get along pretty well. mr. jenner. now, let's get to the period after your girlhood, when you had your own families. let's start with during the time of her marriage to edward john pic. did your relations remain fully cordial, or did you begin to find that there were times when you would have to yield, whether or not you were careful about what you said so as not to excite her or get in an argument with her, or anything like that? mrs. murret. well, i don't think i had to be careful with what i said. maybe if i thought she wasn't right, i would tell her she wasn't right. i never did feel i had to be afraid to tell her anything, you know, just to keep peace or something like that. if i thought she was wrong, i would just tell her why she was wrong, why i thought she was wrong, because there were things where we just didn't think alike. mr. jenner. you did not? mrs. murret. no; we didn't think alike, and of course she thought i was wrong. mr. jenner. she thought you were wrong? mrs. murret. yes; she did, so then i would, you know, forget about it, in other words, but it didn't seem like she could forget about anything. she would just, you know, fly off. mr. jenner. you would forgive her, but she wouldn't, was that it? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. this propensity on her part not to forget, was that a source of irritation, and did that evidence itself in your avoiding controversy, and others in your family avoiding controversy, with her? mrs. murret. oh, no. mr. jenner. all right. now, coming to later years, was there any change? did you avoid any difference of opinion with her, or anything that you can recall of that nature? mrs. murret. well, in later years, whatever dissensions we had or whatever it was that we would have a controversy over, she would just go off, and she wouldn't write or anything, and we wouldn't hear from her, and so forth, you know, until something turned up where she probably needed assistance or a place to stay, or she was coming to new orleans and for us to put her up and everything. i never did hold anything in, you know what i mean, things like that. mr. jenner. the remainder of your family, your other brothers and sisters, i think they remained in and about the new orleans area; is that right? mrs. murret. well, they did for a while. mr. jenner. well, they all remained in and about new orleans except for your sister aminthe; isn't that right? mrs. murret. yes; she moved. she married and moved to knoxville. mr. jenner. but the rest of your family stayed here in the new orleans area? mrs. murret. well, my brother stayed. they were very young, and of course long before i was married, they died, so there wasn't really anyone left, you know, except marguerite and i. she lived with me when i first got married, she stayed with me then. mr. jenner. marguerite lived with you during your marriage? mrs. murret. yes; my father and my husband and myself, we all stayed together. mr. jenner. you and your husband and your father and your sister marguerite stayed together? mrs. murret. yes; we lived on esplanade and roman. mr. jenner. what is the business or occupation of your husband? mrs. murret. what is his occupation? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. murret. he's a clerk for, well, he works for different companies, but mostly for mr. jackson. he works at different wharves, in other words. mr. jenner. different what? mrs. murret. at different wharves on the riverfront. you see, he doesn't belong to a union so, therefore, he doesn't stay at one wharf. he transfers to where they have work, and sometimes if one don't have work, he will work for someone else. mr. jenner. tell me what else you know about john pic. mrs. murret. what else? mr. jenner. yes, about edward john pic. mrs. murret. well, about all i know about him is what she told me. she said john wasn't supporting her because, she told me, that she was pregnant and he refused to give her any money. it was a payday, i think, when she told me that, and i spoke to john, but john didn't give me any satisfaction whatever. he didn't say a thing, why or anything, what was the reason or anything. mr. jenner. did you discuss with him his refusal to support marguerite? mrs. murret. no; she left john. mr. jenner. did she leave him? mrs. murret. oh, yes. you see, she was that way, very quick. she would do things on the spur of the minute, where maybe somebody else would think it over before acting. i always think over things to give it a chance to cool off before i do something, but not marguerite. when she left him she didn't get a divorce. she just separated. he got half of the furniture, and she got half of the furniture, i think. mr. jenner. before they were divorced? mrs. murret. before they were divorced; yes. mr. jenner. now if i may return a minute, you said she was very quick. mrs. murret. yes, sir. mr. jenner. would you elaborate on that a little? mrs. murret. yes; if i can. mr. jenner. i am trying to find out as much as i can about her personality. now, when you said she was quick, do i get an inference from that that she was hasty, or that she was impulsive, or that she would act without thinking things over? mrs. murret. yes; she would do that. she was quick in making up her mind about anything that happened. she made her decisions very fast without sleeping on them, not like me. i always try to sleep over a problem if i have to make a decision, because a lot of times i will have a different outlook on the thing the next day, but not marguerite. she would just act right now regardless of the consequences once she made up her mind. that's what i mean. in other words, when she would find something that she just didn't like, that was it. she made quick decisions. mr. jenner. was this a personality trait that she had as a young girl as well as a mature lady? mrs. murret. i don't remember anything like that before she was married, i mean, as we lived as sisters in the same home; no. mr. jenner. it was after she left the home then, would you say, that she began to develop that trait, or that you began to detect this quick acting in her personality? mrs. murret. yes; i would say so. mr. jenner. and you think she failed to think things over, that she didn't sleep on them, which was an illustration you gave a few minutes ago, but that she acted quickly when something happened or when she needed to reach a decision, is that it? mrs. murret. yes; that's right. mr. jenner. she failed to sleep on something before she acted; is that right? mrs. murret. yes; she was too quick. i would have thought things over before i did them, but she wouldn't. mr. jenner. in other words, she was impulsive? would you call it that? mrs. murret. you can call it that if you like. mr. jenner. well, i am just trying to shape this up into what you really knew about marguerite and about her personality behavior. i don't mean to put words in your mouth now, and any time that i show a tendency to do that, it is inadvertent, and if that does happen i want you to say that that isn't quite the way you meant it. mrs. murret. yes, sir. mr. jenner. i want you to put it in your own words. do you understand? mrs. murret. yes, sir. mr. jenner. would you elaborate now a little more on this personality characteristic that we have discussed? i am interested in that. mrs. murret. well, she went to live in carrollton, which is in the city park section, in carrollton. mr. jenner. would you spell that for me, please? mrs. murret. c-a-r-r-o-l-l-t-o-n. mr. jenner. carrollton? mrs. murret. yes, sir. mr. jenner. you will have to forgive my midwest accent, which differs from yours. mrs. murret. yes; my southern drawl. mr. jenner. well, i wouldn't call it a southern drawl. you have a distinct louisiana accent. it's different. the louisiana accent is not a lazy sort of thing. it has a reasonable sharpness of enunciation which you don't find, say, in mississippi and some parts of louisiana. i just came from dallas, and they pronounce words with a drawl that's as long as your arm. i happen to be a midwesterner myself, so my accent is hard, i mean, with a sharp enunciation. mrs. murret. well, during that time she was suing eddie for a divorce. mr. jenner. now, was she working at that time? mrs. murret. no; she was not working then. mr. jenner. how was she being supported? mrs. murret. eddie was supporting her. mr. jenner. even though they were separated, he was supporting her? mrs. murret. well, i don't know now if he was supporting her by that time or not, but i know during the course of the divorce he had to pay marguerite alimony, and he contributed a very fair amount, and he contributed a very good amount to john edward, which he received until he was years old. mr. jenner. well, that was pursuant to a decree of the court, i suppose. mrs. murret. yes; of course, during that time, when john was about years old, she married mr. oswald. mr. jenner. i will get to that in a minute. mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. did you have the feeling that this experience with edward pic embittered her? mrs. murret. i really couldn't say. i don't think so, though. she seemed to be pretty happy with mr. oswald. mr. jenner. before we get to oswald now, did she complain or did she show any reaction from the divorce or anything, or was she getting along all right on what he was giving her and what he was giving john? mrs. murret. well, she was getting along on what she was getting from him for herself and john, i think, and she would come over to our home. we lived on dumaine street at that time, but very near there, and i would give her all the help i could, and they would come over to dinner and things, but then i remember one time when john was sick, when he was a baby, he had this ear infection and she sent for eddie. she said she was getting tired of staying up all night long, and for him to come over and stay a while, and he did. well, i think they had it out at that time. i don't know about that, but anyway, i think that was about the only time that eddie saw john, was during the time that he had this ear trouble, when he was an infant. she wouldn't let john see eddie. for myself, i thought that was cruel, because i don't believe in that. mr. jenner. now i am interested in that, mrs. murret. you say she refused to permit her former husband to see the child? mrs. murret. well, now i don't know whether he even asked to see the child or not. i don't know. mr. jenner. well, you did say without prompting from me that she wouldn't permit him to see the child, didn't you? mrs. murret. that's right, she wouldn't. mr. jenner. i draw the inference from that to mean that he might have desired to see the child, but she wouldn't permit him, but you don't know that? mrs. murret. no; i don't know if he asked to see the child or not. mr. jenner. but you do have a recollection that she would not let eddie see the child; is that right? mrs. murret. that's right. john never saw him after that, i don't think, not after he was a child. mr. jenner. but you said she was opposed to him seeing the child; is that right? mrs. murret. oh, yes; i imagine she was. mr. jenner. did anything else occur in this marriage up to the time of marguerite's marriage to oswald, anything else that you would say was unusual insofar as personality is concerned? mrs. murret. no; not that i can think of. mr. jenner. you have mentioned a couple of aspects already. mrs. murret. no; i don't know of anything else. that would be about all i know. when she became pregnant and they separated, you know, it was just probably a day after that, whatever it was, but then she sued for a divorce and went to live in carrollton, and the divorce was granted, and she got the child, and he supported john for years. he sent him a good amount. he never failed to make one payment, and of course she got alimony for herself. of course, living the way we did as children, we knew how to economize and live on a small amount of money, where people who have always had a lot wouldn't know how to do that. mr. jenner. of course i gather from what you have said--as a matter of fact, you said it, but had you said otherwise i would have been surprised, that your father was rearing six children, and he was a motorman on the streetcar lines here; is that right? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. and you were necessarily poor people. mrs. murret. yes; he made $ a month. we paid $ a month house rent, or $ a month house rent--i forget which--and every day he would give us each $ to do the marketing with, and we would have something left out of the $ , believe it or not. my sister pearl, when she would have anything left, she would go to the store and buy some material and sit down and make herself a dress by hand, with what she had left from the $ , because whatever was left out of the $ he gave us, if we had anything left, it didn't matter. we could buy anything for ourselves and so forth, that we wanted. mr. jenner. you mean he gave $ to each of you each day? mrs. murret. $ to feed the family; yes sir. we ate beans and rice and spinach and vegetables and bananas and things like that, but we didn't have big household expenses, you see. we didn't have a gas stove. we had a furnace and things like that. there were no electric lights. in the very beginning there weren't, and all of those expenses, you see, were out. i have no bitterness toward my life as a child. in fact, i like to talk about it, because we were always so happy. we went skating. we had skates, and when we were teenagers, we would go skating around jackson square and the french quarter, and so forth, and my aunt would let us take up her rug any time we wanted to dance, and she had a piano and we would go over there and dance and play the piano, and i might say that marguerite was able to do different things. she was very entertaining. she could sing very well, not you know, to be a professional singer, but she had a good voice, and then when we had a piano that my father bought for $ she learned to play by ear on the piano, so we really had a lot of fun. we cooked our beans and ate our beans, and drank our coffee and ate our bread, and the rest of the time we didn't have to do all that children have to do today. i find children today are under a great strain. their parents want their children to grow up long before their years. they don't let them just take things in stride any more like they used to. now, they go to the blue room and places like that, and they apparently think that's the thing to do. mr. jenner. what's the blue room? mrs. murret. that's in the roosevelt hotel. mr. jenner. is it a place of entertainment? mrs. murret. yes; entertainment, and of course they have to go bowling and they have to be baton twirlers, and they have to go to dances and all kinds of school events, and it's constantly going and coming all the time, and they just don't ever seem to relax like they used to. they have children in my block who never stop. they have poor people around there, but they never seem to relax. they don't know how to relax apparently. my own children, well, i'm glad they didn't live like that either. mr. jenner. all right now, when john edward pic was approximately years old, your sister, marguerite, married mr. oswald; is that right? mrs. murret. that's right. now, there's something else that happened during that time. she told me this, and i don't know whether it's true or not, but i guess it's true because i have never found my sister to lie about anything. mr. jenner. you never have? mrs. murret. no. mr. jenner. have you ever found her to have hallucinations, that things didn't actually occur that she thought had occurred, or that she had a tendency to exaggerate or overstate something? mrs. murret. i would say, when you put it that way--i would say if she expected a person to do what she was thinking and a person didn't do that, well, then that was the wrong thing. mr. jenner. when that happened, did she get excited about it or angry, or show any emotional trait at all? mrs. murret. no; i don't think so. now, maybe she may have appeared excited. i don't know if she was excited or not. i just always felt that she was really too quick. she would fly off too quick, and if you didn't think the way she did about anything and you tried to explain to her, you would just be wrong. you just couldn't get along with her if something would come up like that. of course, it could be you who was at fault, so i'm not saying that she was at fault every time or anything like that. maybe she was right, but you just couldn't reason with her if she thought she was right, and i don't think anybody can be right all the time. mr. jenner. tell me some more about that. you said she was unable to get along with people. now, i would like to know more about that, just as you recall it, any incident that might have happened or anything that you noticed about marguerite in connection with any incidents like that. mrs. murret. well, i mean, if people don't do things right, maybe it's because they have been doing some wrong things which they had no control over or something, you see what i mean, but at other times things might occur where they weren't wrong, and if she didn't see eye to eye with you, then you couldn't reason with her about it. you couldn't explain things to her, i mean. if she thought differently, then you were just wrong. mr. jenner. and she was sufficiently vociferous about it? mrs. murret. she was very independent, in other words. she was very independent. she didn't think she needed anyone at any time, i don't think, because no matter how much anyone would try to help her or how much they would try to do for her, she never thought that anyone was actually helping her. so often i have helped her out, quite a lot of times, but sooner or later it seemed like she would just take one little word or something that she would think was wrong, and we would have these little differences. mr. jenner. you mean she would fly off the handle, so to speak? mrs. murret. yes; she would fly off, and go and that was it, and when she would do that you wouldn't hear from her or anything, and all you could do was just let things ride until she would come to new orleans again, or something like that, and then usually she would call or if accidentally i would meet her on the street or something, and i would go ahead and give her help again. mr. jenner. it would occur that when she would fly off the handle sometimes you wouldn't see her for a while? mrs. murret. oh, yes. mr. jenner. is that about the pattern of what happened when these incidents would arise? mrs. murret. yes; i think so. mr. jenner. did you make efforts to get along with her, since you were the older sister and really head of the family? mrs. murret. yes; i did. mr. jenner. did you try to mollify her and tell her that she shouldn't act that way? mrs. murret. well, that was all in later years. that was after her marriage and after my marriage, naturally. she might not like something my children were doing and so forth, and i told her that i always believed my children, whatever they told me. she asked me if i did that, and i said yes; i did, and that i had reason to believe them. i had faith in them, and i felt they would always do the right thing. mr. jenner. she questioned that? mrs. murret. with me, yes; i mean, about the children. mr. jenner. she questioned you to the extent that she thought it was unwise, or she didn't get it that you should have faith in your children? mrs. murret. that's right. she told me at one time, and i can remember this incident that happened if you want me to tell it. mr. jenner. go ahead and tell me about it. mrs. murret. the incident was just recently, i may say. my son john was just married october . mr. jenner. of what year? mrs. murret. this year, --this past year. mr. jenner. your son john? mrs. murret. yes; well, she was over at the house---- mr. jenner. who are you talking about now? mrs. murret. marguerite mr. jenner. all right, marguerite was over at the house, and what happened? mrs. murret. before he married this girl that he did marry, there was a young lady that he would invite over to our home quite often, you see, so marguerite was over at the house at that time. mr. jenner. you are talking about your house? mrs. murret. yes; my house; and she was just visiting alone, and it was a rainy day, and john and this girl friend--we were all in the front room, so to pass the time, they were passing notes to one another, and so the next day she told me about that, and she said that they were passing notes about her, so i questioned john about it, and he laughed. he has a very good disposition, and he laughed and he said, "well, of all things," and he said, "we were passing notes telling each other what our bad traits are." he said, "she would pass me a note telling me about a bad trait i had, and then i would pass a note back to her and tell her a bad trait that she had." they were getting a big bang out of that, but marguerite was under the impression that they were talking about her, and so i told her, i said, "well, i believe john," and she said, "do you believe everything they tell you?" and i said, "yes; i believe what they tell me." now, this was just last fall that was. mr. jenner. was that just this last fall, in october? mrs. murret. no. now, john was married in october, but i hadn't seen--this was quite a while previous to that--maybe years. mr. jenner. oh, this incident occurred then back in , would you say? mrs. murret. about the time lee defected to russia. probably about that time, or after. mr. jenner. was it after ? that's when oswald defected. mrs. murret. let's see. i can't remember when that was now. mr. jenner. he was mustered out in september of , and he went to russia right after that. mrs. murret. i just can't remember that. mr. jenner. now, would you tell me about the oswald marriage? mrs. murret. well, i knew lee oswald. he was an insurance collector on my route. mr. jenner. lee oswald was an insurance collector? mrs. murret. for metropolitan; yes, sir. mr. jenner. he collected insurance premiums? mrs. murret. for the metropolitan life insurance co. mr. jenner. was that weekly or monthly, or what? mrs. murret. weekly or monthly or yearly, sometimes semiannually, and so forth. he collected policy payments for them. he was a very good insurance man, i think. mr. jenner. he was an energetic man? mrs. murret. he was. mr. jenner. when you first knew him, he was married; is that right? mrs. murret. no; he was already divorced from his wife when he collected in my area. mr. jenner. he was already divorced from his wife? mrs. murret. yes, sir. mr. jenner. had he had any children of that marriage? mrs. murret. i don't think he did. mr. jenner. what is your recollection as to how lee oswald and marguerite became acquainted? mrs. murret. well, i guess he just liked marguerite enough to marry her, and i believe oswald was a catholic--i'm not too sure of that--and marguerite was a lutheran, so he had to leave his church, naturally. mr. jenner. he had to leave the church? mrs. murret. because he was divorced; yes. he was not recognized in the catholic church. he couldn't receive the sacraments, in other words. he could go to mass. mr. jenner. he happened to be catholic? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. are you catholic? mrs. murret. yes; i am. mr. jenner. all right. so am i, and i just wondered if you were. go ahead. mrs. murret. so they were married in a lutheran church, lee oswald and marguerite. they were married at the lutheran church on canal street. mr. jenner. i was going to ask you what your family was by way of religion. you are catholic. mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. have you always been catholic? mrs. murret. well, not always. i wasn't always a catholic. my father was catholic, and my mother was a lutheran, and we were baptized in the lutheran religion. mr. jenner. you were baptized in the lutheran religion? mrs. murret. yes; and my father, who was catholic, he always saw that we went to sunday school. mr. jenner. he would see to it that you went to the lutheran sunday school, to the lutheran church? mrs. murret. yes; he did. i always thought of my father as st. joseph. i don't know why, but i guess it was because he was so close to us children. he would take us on christmas eve night over to church, and he probably did a lot better than a lot of women do today with a family. mr. jenner. well, he was undoubtedly quite a tolerant man then. mrs. murret. oh, yes. mr. jenner. your mother had begun to rear her children as lutherans, so he continued that? mrs. murret. yes; he did. mr. jenner. he didn't attempt to induce any of you to become converted? mrs. murret. no. john pic--rather, eddie pic was a lutheran too. about the marriage to lee oswald, she seemed to be happy. he had everything she wanted. they lived on taft place in the city park section, and then after that they built a home on alvar street. that was a new section then. right now it looks awful, but at that time it was a growing section, and this was a new house, a little single house right opposite a school, and it was a very nice place. mr. jenner. what's the name of the school? mrs. murret. william t. frantz, they call it. mr. jenner. how do you spell frantz? mrs. murret. f-r-a-n-t-z, i think it is. mr. jenner. there were two children born of that marriage; is that right? mrs. murret. yes, sir; two children, robert, and then lee was born after his father died. mr. jenner. well, his father died in august , and lee was born on october , , about months after; is that right? mrs. murret. yes. lee oswald wanted to adopt john edward, but my sister wouldn't hear to an adoption by him, because she said he had a father, and she was receiving this allotment for him from him, and she didn't want to change his name. mr. jenner. when she married lee oswald, i assume her alimony terminated, did it? mrs. murret. i think so, but john still received his. mr. jenner. the child support continued? mrs. murret. oh, yes; now, what came in between there is what i started to tell you, about john pic. that was after she married oswald. there was a colored girl working in the grocery store, and john was in there--he was about or a little over at the time, and this young woman was in the store---- mr. jenner. let me interrupt you there a moment. when you say john, are you referring to john pic? mrs. murret. yes; that was the pic child, and this colored woman was working in the store--you see, marguerite didn't have any children then, because she was just recently married or something, so this young woman said to john--he was just a baby, and she said, "you're a cute little boy. what's your name?" and he said, "my name is john edward pic," like a child will do, drawing it out so that everybody could hear it, and she asked this colored girl, "whose child is this?" and the colored girl told her, "that's mrs. oswald's boy," so that's how that happened. i gather that she didn't know anything about the pic child, and so forth, so anyway, this young woman went home and she told her mother that a very strange thing had happened in the grocery store, and she said there was a darling little child in there, and she asked him his name and he said he was john edward pic, and she said, "by any chance, do you think he would be related to eddie?" and she had married eddie, and eddie didn't tell her that he had a child, or that he was married or anything, and then this marriage was annulled--an aunt of mine saw the annullment in the paper, because she used to read everything in the paper, you know, and she's the one who knew about it. my sister did tell me the story about that. mr. jenner. that marriage was a happy marriage, was it? mrs. murret. the oswald marriage? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. murret. i think so, as far as i know. i mean, i didn't get to go over there very often, but we would visit. i had a lot of children, and naturally i had to take care of them, and we never did have anything, and of course they had a car and everything, and at times they would drop by, but we didn't visit too often. mr. jenner. they had a car and they had a home? mrs. murret. what's that? mr. jenner. they had an automobile, you say, and they also had their own home on alvar street? mrs. murret. well, they were buying the home on alvar street, and during that time was when mr. oswald was cutting the grass, i think, and he took a severe pain in his arm, and she gave him some aspirin, and in the meantime she called the doctor, and he said that was the right thing to do, to give him aspirin and to rub his arm, so then it seemed like he got worse, and while she was calling the doctor to come out, he just toppled over. of course, the house wasn't paid for, and it seems like they had insurance on their house that lee never did take care of, or whatever it was, and i think if they had done that, i think they would have been safe in the house, but he neglected to do that, so they didn't have no insurance on the house, or whatever it was. then she lived in the house, i think, over years while lee was a baby, in this house, and then she sold it. i think she sold it, and she bought another smaller house somewhere in that area. i don't remember where, and then she sold that. mr. jenner. well, hold that for a minute. we will get to that later on. when mr. oswald had his heart attack and died in august of , did your sister return to work? mrs. murret. not right away. mr. jenner. not right away? mrs. murret. no; i think lee was around years old when she returned to work. i never did ask her, you know anything about the insurance, but he probably had a good amount of insurance on himself, being an insurance man himself, i imagine. i don't know about that. mr. jenner. well, was that your impression, anyhow, that she did return to work after a period of about years? mrs. murret. about years; yes, sir. mr. jenner. that would have been around , approximately; is that right? mrs. murret. i guess so. now, i can't recollect what happened with lee after that, when she went to work, or where she worked. i know i took care of lee when he was that age. mr. jenner. all right, i would like for you to tell me about that. mrs. murret. when lee was a very small child? mr. jenner. around that period when he was years old, during that -year period, was that during the period you took care of him? mrs. murret. yes; that's when i took care of him. i offered to take care of lee for her. it seemed like he was--i don't know how that came along, but it seems like there was someone else, i think, some lady and her husband--i couldn't tell you who they were or anything like that, but they were crazy about the child. she had told me about that and so forth, but then i met her in town one day and she was telling me how they felt about the child, but i told her, i said, "well, i'll keep lee for a while, you know, as long as i could." i offered to keep lee at an age when he was a very beautiful child. now, i wouldn't say he was smarter than any other child his age. he might have been smarter than some -year-olds and so forth, but he was really a cute child, very friendly, and so i kept him and i would take him to town, and when i would he would have on one of these little sailor suits, and he really looked cute, and he would holler, "hi," to everybody, and people in town would stop me and say, "what an adorable child he is," and so forth, and he was always so friendly, and, of course, i did the best i could with him. the children at home liked him. john edward and robert are the same age as my fourth and fifth children, so--in other words, i had five children in years, making them all around the same age, from to months apart, so, of course, everybody was of school age, grammar school. i had to get my own five children ready for school, and i didn't have any help on that and it kept me pretty busy, and that's why i guess it was that lee started slipping out of the house in his nightclothes and going down the block and sitting down in somebody's kitchen. he could slip out like nobody's business. you could have everything locked in the house, and he would still get out. we lived in a basement house, and we had gates up and everything, but he would still get out. mr. jenner. what do you mean by a basement house? mrs. murret. oh, that's one that's raised off the ground. the house has a few steps going up to the door, and it has a basement underneath, which a lot of people make into living quarters, underneath. mr. jenner. all right. he was years old when he was living with you at your house, and at that time she had gone back to work; is that right? mrs. murret. she had gone back to work; yes, sir. mr. jenner. what sort of work did she do? mrs. murret. she was a saleswoman. i think she worked in quite a few of the stores in town. mr. jenner. here in new orleans? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. i assume her earnings were small? mrs. murret. what's that? mr. jenner. i assume her earnings were small? mrs. murret. oh, yes; they don't pay too much. mr. jenner. what did she do with john edward and robert at this time? mrs. murret. well, at that time john edward and robert were placed in a home across the river some place. i wouldn't know the name of the home. i visited with her one time, and she didn't like it too much, and so she took them because they weren't keeping their clothes clean and so forth. the children didn't look the way she wanted them to, and she put them in the bethlehem home. that's a lutheran home. mr. jenner. is the bethlehem home for lutheran orphans? mrs. murret. no; it's not exactly an orphanage. it's for children who have one parent. mr. jenner. i think we will take a recess now for lunch, and we can be back here at o'clock. (whereupon the proceeding was recessed.) testimony of mrs. lillian murret resumed the proceeding reconvened at p.m. mr. jenner. as i understand it now, mrs. murret, marguerite maintained the house for approximately or years and reared the boy there and did not work, and at the end of that period of time, she went to work, and she lodged lee with you and your husband and your children; is that right? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. and that extended over a period of how long? how long did you have him? mrs. murret. oh, i think it was pretty near the time that she married mr. ekdahl. i think she married him about that time. mr. jenner. that was ; is that right? mrs. murret. it might have been. now, it might have been a little before she married ekdahl. i really can't remember that. i really didn't know mr. ekdahl. i met him one time. now, i am trying to orient myself. mr. jenner. that's all right; take your time. do you recall about when that was? mrs. murret. when she married mr. ekdahl? mr. jenner. no; that you had the care of lee in your home. mrs. murret. that i had what? mr. jenner. when lee came to live with you temporarily; when was that? mrs. murret. oh, when he was about years old. mr. jenner. that would have been about ; is that right? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. and he stayed with you until about the time that marguerite married mr. ekdahl; is that right? mrs. murret. around that time, or a little before. she might have taken him a little bit before, a few months before she married ekdahl. i don't recall exactly how that was now. mr. jenner. she married ekdahl in ; so at that time lee would have been years old; isn't that right? mrs. murret. yes; that's right. well, then i didn't have lee that long; not from years old. he wasn't with me all that time. mr. jenner. how long do you think it was that you had lee in your home on that occasion? mrs. murret. well, i might have had lee about years. mr. jenner. would that have been from to , or ; somewhere in there? mrs. murret. yes sir. mr. jenner. he was years old when he came with you; is that right? mrs. murret. what's that? mr. jenner. he was years old? mrs. murret. about ; yes. mr. jenner. when he came with you? mrs. murret. yes, sir. mr. jenner. how old was he when he left? mrs. murret. well, he was about or pretty near that age, when he left me. mr. jenner. well, that keys in with this information i have. when he was about years old, did he join his brothers out at the bethlehem orphanage? mrs. murret. he did. he was out there for a while. mr. jenner. did he come from your home to the orphanage? mrs. murret. i really don't know that. mr. jenner. i thought there might have been some incident as to why he was placed in the orphanage with his two brothers. mrs. murret. well, the incident could have been--i don't know if it was that or not, but maybe it was just that i couldn't take care of him any more, or something like that; i don't know. mr. jenner. you don't have any clear recollection on that score? mrs. murret. no; i don't. mr. jenner. but you do have a sufficient recollection that he was about years old? mrs. murret. about; yes. mr. jenner. when he left your home? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. and you do remember lee being lodged at the bethlehem orphanage home with his two brothers, do you? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. did you visit the boys out there at any time? mrs. murret. i visited out there with marguerite. mr. jenner. and that was on what; a weekend? mrs. murret. i think it was. they had a party for the home out there, and the children themselves seemed to be very happy out there. it's an old place, but a very nice place, and it was run by a man and his wife. the children were included in everything, and the doors were kept open. in other words, the children were allowed to go out and play marbles on the outside, and they went to school, you know, to school in that neighborhood. i mean they weren't confined or shut in, and they seemed to have a good program of discipline. even though they could go out and play in the immediate area, they would come in when the bell rang for supper, but i mean they were not closed in or kept locked up or anything. she also contributed to that home, i think. i don't think they would keep those boys there free. mr. jenner. you're right. in the meantime she was working; is that right? mrs. murret. what was that? mr. jenner. she was working? mrs. murret. she was working; yes. mr. jenner. in some department store or something like that here in new orleans? mrs. murret. she at one time, but i don't know whether this was the time, but she worked at a hosiery shop on canal street. it might have been one of these jean's--what they call jean's hosiery shop over there on canal street. in fact, she was manager of that store at the time, as i recall, this hosiery store where she worked. i don't know what happened after she left that place. that was the time she married ekdahl, in between there, and she left new orleans and went to texas. mr. jenner. do you know how long she had known lee oswald--that is, the father of lee harvey oswald--before they were married? mrs. murret. well, john edward was years old when she married him, so i figured she must have known him about a year or more. myself, i knew him, because he collected at my house, but i don't know whether she knew him at that time or not. mr. jenner. do you know whether she knew him before she and her husband, edward john pic, separated? mrs. murret. i doubt it. mr. jenner. do you know whether she knew him during the period of the separation and before the divorce? mrs. murret. that must have been it. she must have known him during that time. mr. jenner. give me your reaction to mr. oswald a little more, if you will. what kind of man was he? mrs. murret. well, he was a very outward man, a man that smiled a lot, i might say. he smiled a lot, and he seemed aggressive. mr. jenner. would you say he was energetic? mrs. murret. oh, yes; very much. he was a good worker for metropolitan, one of their top salesmen. mr. jenner. and he was an outgoing person, you say? mrs. murret. he seemed to be. mr. jenner. would you call him an extrovert? mrs. murret. yes; of course, i don't know what happened at home. i can only tell you from what i noticed when i saw him, you know, but he seemed to be very aggressive and energetic, and they seemed to be getting along all right, so far as i could tell. mr. jenner. during that period of time of her marriage to lee oswald, did you have much contact with your sister marguerite? mrs. murret. no; not very much. like i said, i had five children myself, and we didn't have a car; so we stayed at home a lot. mr. murret is a man who don't care to visit relatives too much, and we didn't visit them. they came over when they would be out riding around; in other words, they might stop by or something like that, but we didn't do much visiting. mr. jenner. your husband's given name is charles f.; is that right? mrs. murret. yes, sir; they call him "dutz." mr. jenner. that's his nickname? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. is that d-u-t-z? mrs. murret. yes; and they put it in the telephone book that way, because he was in the fight game years ago. he managed some fighters, and they have a lot of contact with sportswriters, and they knew him by the name of "dutz," so that's why he went and put it in the telephone book, rather than charles, so that they would know who he was, i guess. mr. jenner. does he still use that name? mrs. murret. he does. mr. jenner. is your telephone listed in that name? mrs. murret. yes; that's what i said. it's still listed that way. his uncle gave him that nickname when he was a small child, and i always knew him by the name of "dutz." i never call him anything else but that, but his family always called him charles. mr. jenner. what business is he in? mrs. murret. what's that? mr. jenner. what is your husband's business again? mrs. murret. he works as a clerk. mr. jenner. is there anything else you can remember about lee oswald, the father of lee harvey oswald? mrs. murret. i don't remember anything else; no. i didn't know anything about him at all other than being an insurance clerk and coming around the house to collect insurance. he sort of maybe seemed to be a little forward maybe, i thought, but, like a lot of insurance men, maybe it helps on the debits, you know. mr. jenner. he was aggressive in collecting the accounts; do you mean? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. but not forward in any other respect? mrs. murret. no; not that i know of. mr. jenner. i mean he was a gentleman? mrs. murret. as far as i know. mr. jenner. do you know anything about his family? mrs. murret. i know nothing about the oswald family. i only met one brother who was the godfather of lee--little lee oswald, you know--and i think his name was harvey, maybe. i wouldn't be sure about that. mr. jenner. harvey? mrs. murret. i believe that's what it was, but that's about all i know about the oswald family. he's the only one i knew or ever saw. mr. jenner. do you know where harvey oswald is now? mrs. murret. he's dead now. i just saw him one time, and that was after lee was born. he came over to the house, and i think they were friendly with marguerite and all, but all of a sudden there was no more friendship. i don't know why. mr. jenner. did this friendship terminate while the marriage still existed, or was it afterward? mrs. murret. i think afterward. i don't know whether there was any friendship with the oswald family during this marriage or not. i couldn't say. she never spoke about it, but i do know, after the death of the brother, they had some dissension about something. i don't know what, but that ended that friendship with the oswalds. mr. jenner. as far as you know or were advised, that was never repaired, was it? mrs. murret. i don't think so. mr. jenner. your sister married mr. ekdahl? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. and your recollection of that event is what? mrs. murret. what do you mean? mr. jenner. what do you remember about that incident? mrs. murret. well, i don't know anything about the marriage at all, other than what you have told me about it. i only met mr. ekdahl one time, and they were about to be married about that time it seems like, and they say that mr. ekdahl was a sick man and had a bad heart, and he was a little older than she was, and she didn't seem very enthusiastic about marrying mr. ekdahl, and that's when his sister came down here and she liked marguerite a lot, and she said, "why don't you go ahead and marry him? he is lonesome," and so forth, so she just decided, i guess, to marry ed. mr. jenner. his name was edward ekdahl? mrs. murret. yes; his name was edward ekdahl. mr. jenner. and it is your best recollection that you met him once before the marriage? mrs. murret. that's all i saw him; yes, sir. mr. jenner. had your sister talked to you about him prior to the marriage? mrs. murret. she spoke to me about him, i think. he was a high salaried man, that i know, and he did research work for texas electric, i think, and of course i don't think things worked out maybe too well for them, i mean, about his way of giving her money and so forth. i guess she thought things would be different after their marriage. you see, he was sort of tight, i think, with his money. she would go to the grocery store, but he would hold the money, and of course she didn't like that part of it, i guess you know, so then she went around with mr. ekdahl in his travels for the company and she also took lee with her wherever she had to go. and then lee became of school age, and she had these other two boys in the chamberlin-hunt college in mississippi. mr. jenner. is that a military school? mrs. murret. yes; and it's a high-priced military school, with beautiful uniforms and so forth, and she used her own money for these boys to go to military school. mr. ekdahl didn't take on that responsibility. he didn't take on any obligation like that at all, as far as i know. she said he didn't even take lee as an obligation. now, whether this was all her idea or not, i don't know, because she is very independent about things. i don't know, but that's the way i understood it was, so then anyway, lee traveled with her all over until he became of school age. during the summertime she rented a place at covington so that she could have her other two boys with her on vacation. mr. jenner. where is covington? mrs. murret. covington is right out of new orleans, not too far away, over the causeway. people more or less use it as a summer resort, and they rent homes there, just like at biloxi and gulfport, and so forth. mr. jenner. oh, it's off in that direction? mrs. murret. yes; so she rented a place over there, and she stayed there with the boys in the summer. mr. jenner. now, this was when she was married to ekdahl; is that right? mrs. murret. yes, sir; she was married to ekdahl then. mr. jenner. did they visit you once in a while? mrs. murret. with mr. ekdahl? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. murret. no; never. she was living in texas at that time, but this was during the summer that she stayed at covington. mr. jenner. where was mr. ekdahl during the summer when she was at covington? mrs. murret. mr. ekdahl was traveling for the company, but she couldn't travel with him because she had the boys during vacation time, and then lee became of school age and he had to go to school. now, at that time houses were hard to get, and even hotel rooms, i mean, when you were traveling and so forth, so she agreed to stay over in covington and send lee to school in covington rather than go back to texas. now, whether she stayed with lee when he went to school or not, i don't know. the next i heard, well, she was back in texas. now, i don't know about that, how that came about, but she had this duplex. now, if she had bought this duplex or not at one time herself, i don't know, but she had spoke something about buying a duplex. mr. jenner. here in new orleans? mrs. murret. no; in texas, fort worth. so it seems like--this is what she told me; that's how i knew so much of her family life, from what she told me. so then, she told me that when they left covington, they went back to texas to this duplex, and now, she lived either in the upper or lower part of this duplex, but anyway, one morning she was outside in the yard and this lady who lived either in the upper or lower, whichever way it was, came out into the yard and my sister introduced herself as mrs. ekdahl, and this lady answered instead, "you are not the mrs. ekdahl that i know." well, you can put two and two together there. now, i am only repeating what she told me, so then she got sort of scouting around, you know what i mean, and she found out different things around there, and she accused him of having someone in this house while she was over in covington. so then she got after him and he denied everything about that, so then she said, "well," and she just kept eyeing up the situation, you know, and one time she found something in his pockets. he had a train ticket to go on one of his trips, and she called the place and found out that he had gotten two tickets, so she told him that she would drive him to the train station, and he insisted that she not drive him, that he could go alone, but she said, well, no, she wanted to take him, and he said, no, that that would be too much trouble and silly. well, anyway, i think she did drive him there, and when they got to the train station, i think she thought that whoever it was holding the other ticket had already picked it up, this other ticket, and was already on the train, so mr. ekdahl picked up his ticket and went on, and i guess she always thought he wasn't true to her after that, you see, so she said one night she followed mr. ekdahl---- mr. jenner. who? mrs. murret. she did in her car, or somebody's car, and john, and i don't know if it was one of john's friends or robert's, but anyway they followed mr. ekdahl, and they saw him go into this house, and she waited a few minutes on the outside, and then she had one of the boys run up the steps, and he hollered, "western union," and when he hollered, "western union," this woman opened the door, and when she opened the door, pushed the door back, mr. ekdahl was sitting in the living room. when he left her, he was fully dressed, but his coat and tie and shirt was off, and he had his athletic shirt on. he had his coat and top shirt off and so forth, and he was sitting in there, so she questioned him about that, and he said he was there on business, which was absurd, because you know you don't disrobe yourself on business, so that's what started off the ekdahl case, and then of course she wanted to get a divorce from him right away, you see, and that's why i say she's quick, you see, because i would not have gotten a divorce. i would have got a separation, because he was making a big salary, and so forth, but anyway, she wanted a divorce it seemed like, but it seemed like he had connections and he must have gone to get the divorce before she could get it, or whatever it was. she had gone to her pastor and told her pastor about it, and her pastor told her that if she would press this case against ekdahl, that he would have a heart attack and that would make her a murderer, that she would be the cause of him dying, so he was in the hospital, i think, so she went to the hospital to see him, and i think they had a roarup there at the hospital. i don't know what that was all about because, you see, i don't know anything about all of that except what she told me. so then she got a divorce from mr. ekdahl, and she settled for not too very much and it wasn't very long before mr. ekdahl died, so that was the end of the ekdahl affair. mr. jenner. all right. now, let me take you back to the beginning now for a few moments, if you will. we had lee over at the bethlehem orphanage after he left the house; is that right? mrs. murret. yes, sir. mr. jenner. he was there when he was five years old, and he stayed there until she married mr. ekdahl; is that right? mrs. murret. well, he was in the home awhile first. i mean, he was at my house, i would say, between - / and years, and then i couldn't keep him any more. i guess there must have been some dissension or something. mr. jenner. what kind of dissension? mrs. murret. she got angry or something, and i might have told her to take her child, you know, or whatever it was, so she put him in with the other two boys in the home then. mr. jenner. she was quick tempered, would you say? mrs. murret. well, that's what i mean; yes. mr. jenner. she would flare up in a moment; is that right? mrs. murret. yes; you see, she was always right. she couldn't take anything from anybody, in other words, or you might say she was not reasonable, and especially in some things that are right, because you can keep doing and doing and doing, but then you get to the point where the other party never seems to be doing anything. mr. jenner. she didn't seem to exhibit a full measure of appreciation that was warranted, is that what you mean? mrs. murret. well, i didn't keep the child for anything like that. i kept him for himself and for the love of god, and so forth, and we liked the child, but of course we had our own obligation with our own children, and this was her life. she made her own life. of course, i do say that maybe she made it, and then she didn't make it, because you see, it's just the way things happened. now, whether she was the cause of these things happening or not, i don't know, but she seemed to be a victim of all these circumstances. mr. jenner. but they kept repeating themselves, a number of them; isn't that right? mrs. murret. yes; they kept coming along; that's right. mr. jenner. now, she then married mr. ekdahl; is that right? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. and you had met him only once, i believe you said? mrs. murret. once; that's right. mr. jenner. were you at the wedding? mrs. murret. oh, no; i didn't go to the wedding. they were married in texas. mr. jenner. were you advised that she was about to marry him? mrs. murret. i don't think i knew that she was about to marry him; no, sir. i just received a picture of her and ekdahl on their wedding trip, and she had written on it, "happily married," and she sent a picture of the house that they lived in. it was a very nice place, and they seemed to be doing o.k., you know. mr. jenner. were they married here in new orleans, or were they married in texas? mrs. murret. i imagine they were married in texas. mr. ekdahl was a divorced man. i guess he was a divorced man. he had to be. i don't know, but i don't think he could get married without being divorced. he had a son. mr. jenner. yes; i know he did, and his people were boston people, were they not? mrs. murret. yes. i know she met his sister. it was her, his sister, that sort of persuaded her that she ought to go ahead and marry him. she went up to see them, i think. mr. jenner. in boston? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. you think his sister influenced her a lot? mrs. murret. yes; i think so. mr. jenner. but she was somewhat disappointed in mr. ekdahl insofar as his handling of the family funds was concerned; is that right? mrs. murret. well, i imagine she was. mr. jenner. well, i don't want you to imagine. what impression did you get from what she said to you? mrs. murret. well, she just said that she thought things would be different, that since he was a high-salaried man, she didn't think she would have the kind of life she was living, like pinching pennies, and having to ask him for everything that she wanted. i think she was under the impression that he would give her so much, or i don't know anything about the amounts, you know, but that's what i gathered from what she told me. mr. jenner. all right. now, i think you said that he did not assume responsibility for any of the three children; is that right? mrs. murret. that's what she said. mr. jenner. and she told you when she placed her two boys, john and robert, in the military school, what was the name of that? mrs. murret. chamberlin-hunt academy. mr. jenner. that she was assuming the responsibility of paying their way? mrs. murret. yes; she did. she always had a lot of character. that i can say about her, you know, for a woman alone. she would have never done anything she wasn't supposed to do, even though she was in dire circumstances, and so forth, but one thing would come on like that, and she would just act up very quickly, like i told you, if she didn't like something happening or something you did or said, something like that. of course, there are always two sides to every story, and i don't know the other side. i only know one side. mr. jenner. would you say that lee lived with you from about to ? mrs. murret. yes; i guess it was along in there. it's hard to remember those dates exactly, that's been so long ago. mr. jenner. did he live at any time at bartholomew street in new orleans? mrs. murret. yes; they did. that's the house i was trying to recollect that she bought, i think, after she left this alvar street residence. she bought this house on bartholomew. mr. jenner. and she lived there about a year; is that right? mrs. murret. i don't know how long she lived there. mr. jenner. do you recall her living at broadway in new orleans? mrs. murret. what street? mr. jenner. broadway. mrs. murret. no; i don't. mr. jenner. broadway? mrs. murret. no. mr. jenner. that was just a month, about the middle of august to about the th of september . mrs. murret. i know nothing of that. mr. jenner. do you recall their residing at atlantic avenue in algiers? mrs. murret. no, i don't. that's possibly where the boys were over there. is that an orphanage, or whatever it was? mr. jenner. i don't know. is there an orphanage over at algiers? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. that's not the bethlehem place, is it? mrs. murret. no, i don't know what orphanage that was, but they were over there in algiers, and then they were transferred from algiers to bethlehem down here in new orleans. mr. jenner. where is bethlehem located, this bethlehem institution? mrs. murret. it's way down off of st. claude street somewhere, way down on the other end of town. i don't think it's there any more. it could be. it was a very old place. mr. jenner. i have said that she married mr. ekdahl in . i am afraid i am wrong about that. i think that was that she married him, which squares more with your recollection. mrs. murret. yes, i think so, because that's what i thought. lee was around , and you had him down as , and i couldn't recollect having him at years old. mr. jenner. you were right in your recollection. now, what town in texas was it that they moved to? mrs. murret. i think it was fort worth. mr. jenner. they moved to fort worth? mrs. murret. yes, i think so. mr. jenner. was that address victor? does that refresh your recollection on that? mrs. murret. well, she lived a couple of places, you know. do you mean after she married mr. ekdahl and moved to texas, to fort worth? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. murret. i don't know the address at that time. i just don't recollect that address, because she lived in some other places too. i really don't know. mr. jenner. do you recall whether she ever lived in dallas? mrs. murret. i never knew she lived in dallas. mr. jenner. is the town of benbrook, tex., familiar to you? mrs. murret. no; you see, i hadn't heard from her. you see, she went from new york to texas. that was about years later, i think. i just don't know that. i remember her saying that she bought some property some place in texas, and she couldn't keep it up, and she probably mortgaged it to this man on a rental basis, or something like that, and they had some trouble with that; i don't know. don't you get tired listening to this merry-go-round? mr. jenner. mrs. murret, lawyers don't get tired. mrs. murret. it would be too bad if you did. mr. jenner. we are under the impression that they moved to dallas, tex., first and lived on victor street, victor street, in up until , and then they moved to fort worth. mrs. murret. oh. mr. jenner. i am not attempting to give you information, now; i am just asking if you recall that, or if you ever knew that? mrs. murret. well, that could be; yes, sir; but i thought they had gone to fort worth myself. that's what i thought. mr. jenner. you didn't hear much from her during that time, did you? mrs. murret. no; during those years i didn't hear much from her. maybe she would send a card or a picture or something like that, but we didn't correspond. mr. jenner. you say she sent you a picture of the house where she was living with mr. ekdahl? mrs. murret. yes; and she sent me a picture of herself and the boys around christmas time, and that's about all. mr. jenner. do you have any pictures of the family, album pictures or snapshots of lee harvey oswald? mrs. murret. of lee harvey? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. murret. no; i don't. mr. jenner. or mr. ekdahl. mrs. murret. i have her picture with mr. ekdahl when they were married. mr. jenner. i wonder if you would give that to your husband and let him bring that in the morning when he comes in? mrs. murret. the snapshot? mr. jenner. yes; and will you look hard and see if you have any other pictures with your children taken when they were small with lee, and that sort of thing? (the snapshot of mr. and mrs. ekdahl was produced by mrs. murret and was marked and admitted in evidence on her affidavit as lillian murret exhibit no. .) mrs. murret. no; i don't have any of my children with lee when he was living with us. i have mr. and mrs. ekdahl. she sent that picture, where she wrote on it, "happily married." like i say, i can't recollect her living in dallas, in that home in dallas. i always thought it was fort worth. mr. jenner. it appears now that at least during or sometime in , she lived in covington, la., at west th street, and at vermont street in covington. now, your recollection of that is that this was in the summer of ; is that right? mrs. murret. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and she brought her three boys together with her there; is that right? mrs. murret. yes, sir. mr. jenner. at this time, her husband ekdahl had not joined her, had he? mrs. murret. not that i know of. i assume he was out on his business, you know, while they were spending the summer over there. he came in periodically every weeks, or every week, or whatever it was; i don't know. mr. jenner. it was your impression that he was a research man for what company? mrs. murret. a sick man? mr. jenner. no; a research man. mrs. murret. he did research for texas electric, and she told me his salary was over $ , a month. mr. jenner. which is a substantial amount of money; right? mrs. murret. oh, i imagine so, but sometimes you can get along on $ better than $ , . mr. jenner. that's right. now, let me delve into that a little bit. if it was $ , a month, she at that time regarded it as a very substantial income; is that right? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. and you people as well would regard that as a substantial income; is that right? mrs. murret. we people? mr. jenner. yes, the murret family. mrs. murret. my family? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. murret. yes, sir; we would think we were millionaires if we had that much money, but still i think we always did a lot with our money. our main reason was for our family. that's why my husband wanted to educate his children. that was his main reason, because he knew how tough it is in the outside world, so he wanted them at least to have that much. of course, these are children who liked to go to school and who liked to study. you take this girl out there, she is studying all the time. mr. jenner. you mean your daughter who is outside waiting for you now? mrs. murret. yes, sir; she is still studying, and gene he is still studying. like i said before, we all worked together to see that everybody got his chance. john was a top athlete in school, and then he went to st. louis u. mr. jenner. st. louis? mrs. murret. yes; he was one of the few boys that ever got a scholarship to st. louis u. for basketball, but he only went there for about a year, and they wanted him to play at loyola, and they kept after him when he came here on a visit, so he left st. louis and went to loyola. mr. jenner. loyola of chicago? mrs. murret. no; loyola of new orleans. mr. jenner. i see. mrs. murret. st. louis university, the coach there wouldn't let him play baseball, and baseball was his love. he was a very good basketball player too, but he loved to play ball. he even played with the st. louis cardinals on a farm team, but he saw he would never really get anywhere as an outfielder, so he quit. mr. jenner. but he was good enough to play on one of the st. louis cardinals farm teams; is that right? mrs. murret. yes. he was a good athlete. he was good at ball, baseball and basketball, and in fact, he went to murray, ky. he was one of the boys selected from the south. they had a north and south game, and he was selected from the southern section. it was an all-star game of some kind. he just won a trip to rome with the swift co. mr. jenner. he works for the swift co. now? mrs. murret. yes. he and his wife are leaving this saturday. mr. jenner. how nice. mrs. murret. he earned it. i mean, he didn't win it; he earned it. mr. jenner. now, you say that while marguerite was in covington with the three boys in the summer of , that mr. ekdahl continued in his travels in connection with his business? mrs. murret. i assume he did; that's what he said. i don't know. mr. jenner. at least he wasn't there with her and the boys? mrs. murret. no. mr. jenner. that was your information, that she had her boys at covington in the summer of , during vacation, but that her husband mr. ekdahl was not in covington that summer; is that right? mrs. murret. i don't think he was. i can't say whether he was or not, because i don't know, but she said he wasn't. i assume he was on one of these trips he made in his business, and that's why she was over there with the boys, but i don't know any of that myself. i don't think i even knew she was in covington until i met her day in town. mr. jenner. here in new orleans? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. and was that during that summer vacation period? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. and she told you then that they were in covington? mrs. murret. yes, sir. mr. jenner. had she not tried to reach you in the meantime? mrs. murret. no; she had not. mr. jenner. is covington very far away? mrs. murret. no. mr. jenner. how far away is it? mrs. murret. oh, about -some-odd miles. it isn't very far away. mr. jenner. did she say anything to you at that time as to how she was getting along with her husband? mrs. murret. nothing. she just mentioned the boys being on vacation over there, and lee becoming of school age, and she thought she would just stay there while he went to school. mr. jenner. you mean the fall term, when she would put him in school in covington, la.? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. and did she do that? mrs. murret. i couldn't say whether he went to school there or not. the next i heard is when she left ekdahl. mr. jenner. when she left ekdahl? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. then to summarize her life with ekdahl, she married him and she took the boys out, the two older boys, out of the orphanage and put them in military school in mississippi; is that right? mrs. murret. yes, sir. mr. jenner. at her own expense? mrs. murret. so she said. mr. jenner. yes; so she said. that's what she told you? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. she kept lee with her; is that right? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. was he at that time around years old? mrs. murret. yes, sir. mr. jenner. or maybe a little older? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. and she had accompanied her husband at least for a time in his travels; is that right? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. and she had the boy lee with her and mr. ekdahl; is that right? mrs. murret. yes, sir. mr. jenner. it is your impression that ekdahl did not support lee, but that she had to support him; is that right? mrs. murret. i thought, at least she told me, that he did not support lee either. i thought she told me that. i may be wrong on that. mr. jenner. was ekdahl a man of formal education beyond grammar school? mrs. murret. i don't know anything about ekdahl. mr. jenner. you don't know? mrs. murret. no. mr. jenner. but it was your impression that he was previously married and had a son; is that right? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. she met him here in new orleans; is that right? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. you don't know under what circumstances, though, do you? mrs. murret. i don't know; no, sir. mr. jenner. she spoke to you nothing about the fact that he had a bad heart? mrs. murret. oh, she told me that. she said he had a bad heart; a very bad heart, i believe she said. mr. jenner. and the man's sister had come down from boston, and she approved of marguerite, and she urged mr. ekdahl to marry her; is that right? mrs. murret. that's right. mr. jenner. and they did marry? mrs. murret. yes, sir. mr. jenner. no children were born of that marriage? mrs. murret. no; i don't think she was married to him very long. mr. jenner. they were divorced in , i believe; is that right? mrs. murret. well, i don't know about the date on that. mr. jenner. but they weren't married very long, and that marriage was not, as far as you know, an entirely smooth one, was it? mrs. murret. well, i only know what she told me. she told me what went on. mr. jenner. and you have already told us about that. mrs. murret. yes; that was the reason for the divorce. mr. jenner. had she sold her house that she had here in new orleans at the time she married ekdahl? mrs. murret. yes; i think she did. she sold the alvar street home and moved into the bartholomew street home, which was a small house. it was a very low-priced residence. mr. jenner. at bartholomew? mrs. murret. yes; that's right. mr. jenner. and then she sold that at a profit; is that right? mrs. murret. well, that's what she said, and that was something else about her; she started sort of getting into the business of buying property and selling it and making money off of it and so forth, but things don't just work out the way you want them to sometimes, the way you would like them to work out. mr. jenner. did she also undertake to sell insurance at one time? mrs. murret. she said she did. the last time she was here, she said she was selling insurance, but whether or not she did i don't know. mr. jenner. you mean last fall; when she was here last fall? mrs. murret. i guess it was in the fall that she was here; yes. mr. jenner. that was before the assassination? mrs. murret. oh, yes. mr. jenner. she said then that she was selling insurance? mrs. murret. yes. that was after we hadn't heard from them for a very long time. i didn't even know that lee was in the service, and so forth, and then one day he called me up from the bus station here, but during that time we hadn't heard from them until he called me from the bus station here and said he was in town and wanted a place to stay. now, my daughter's husband was going over to texas to a coaching school, i think to coach at beaumont high, so we asked him if he would call them when he got over there and maybe visit and find out how they were getting along, and he did telephone, but he wasn't able to go out to the house, but they told him that there had been an accident; that she had been working in a candy shop and a glass jar fell on her nose, and that she had sustained other injuries. so he told us about that, and i wrote to her, and i sent her money, and i made up a box of clothing of whatever i thought she might need and so forth, a lot of things, and sent them to her, and every week i would send what i could, $ , $ , or whatever it was. mr. jenner. when was that, mrs. murret? was that in or ? mrs. murret. that was while he was in the marines, still in the marines, because she said at that time she was trying to get lee out of the marines, but his time was nearly up, and she was pleading a hardship case, to get lee out so he could give her some support. now, that was over the telephone, i think. mr. jenner. that was a telephone conversation you had with her? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. was this then in this spring; the late spring of ? mrs. murret. yes; i think so. mr. jenner. because he got out of the service in september of . mrs. murret. that's right, because after he defected here, she visited here. now, when i talked to her over the telephone, and she told me what it was costing her financially and everything, that's when they let him out of the service, right after that, i think. mr. jenner. yes; in september of . mrs. murret. yes, sir, and so then lee came home, and she was living in this one room; so lee stayed there or days, whatever it was, and then he said, "well, this is not for me." mr. jenner. who said that? mrs. murret. lee said that. lee had money that he had saved. he had saved over $ , or $ , --i don't know the amount--but after he got home and stayed there day, he said, "well, this is not for me; i'm leaving." mr. jenner. lee said that? mrs. murret. yes; so he left. she thought he was coming to new orleans; so she called me and she said that he had left by bus, and that she thought he was coming to new orleans, and that he had worked as a runner when he was here for a while for tujague's, and she thought he might be coming here for that reason, and that he may stop at my house, but not to tell him that she had called me, but lee never did stop at the house. if he did, i didn't know it. mr. jenner. did he call you? mrs. murret. no; he didn't call. i never heard from him, and i was waiting, and i have always felt that if he had only stopped at the house, you know, this might not have happened. mr. jenner. what do you think would have happened if he had stopped by or called? mrs. murret. i think we might have been able to help him get a job, or maybe we couldn't have done anything; i don't know. mr. jenner. well, you would have tried, anyhow. mrs. murret. yes; anyway, we didn't see lee, and i had to go out that afternoon and i was under the impression, i thought maybe he did come, you know, pass by, and i asked some children in the block if they had seen somebody in the house and they said yes, that they saw someone with a small suitcase, but afterward i thought it was the fuller brush man. i thought that afterward. so then i didn't know anything any more about lee. mr. jenner. could we stop there a minute and go back over this? after the divorce from ekdahl, did she continue to live in texas? mrs. murret. yes, and that's another thing. we felt that if she could have gotten along with ekdahl, that they would have all been together. lee would have had someone to look up to as a father, and so forth, and things might have been different, but you can't go by what could have happened. i guess sometimes you make your own troubles. mr. jenner. in any event, after ekdahl left and they were divorced, then she remained in touch with you, but she didn't return here? mrs. murret. no. mr. jenner. and then, at that time, she would have had her son, lee, and her son, john, and her son, robert, with her; is that right? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. all living in in their home in fort worth? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. what, if anything, did marguerite tell you about the way she brought lee up; i mean with regard to whether he was to stay in the house after school, and things like that? mrs. murret. yes; she told me that she had trained lee to stay in the house; to stay close to home when she wasn't there; and even to run home from school and remain in the house or near the house. she said she thought it would be safer to have him just do a few chores in the house, like taking the garbage cans out and things like that, than to have him outside playing when she wasn't there. she figured he wouldn't get in any trouble in the house. maybe she thought she was making it safer for him by doing that, rather than being out with other children, but i don't know. i guess that's what happened. he just got in the habit of staying alone like that. that's probably the time that he got like that; he was with himself so much. mr. jenner. i take it, however, you heard from your sister from time to time? mrs. murret. what's that? mr. jenner. you heard from your sister from time to time during all of this period, didn't you? mrs. murret. well, every now and then, but after she had left ekdahl, i didn't hear from her too much. i don't know what went on. i think robert worked at some supermarket, and so forth. he had to support the family, or whatever it was, and then i believe he graduated from high school, robert did, and then i think he was in love with some little italian girl who was a crippled girl, and she told me that the family liked robert a lot and they were trying to get the two together to get married, but she wanted to break that up because the girl was crippled, but robert said he loved the girl, but she was thinking that he was young and he just thought he loved the girl, and maybe if he did marry her he would find out that he didn't like her because of her being handicapped, and all that happened in there. i don't know all the details, but, anyway, robert went in the marines, and that ended that. he went in the marines on his th birthday, as i recall. mr. jenner. the same as lee harvey? mrs. murret. yes, sir; that must have been right after graduation. robert was sort of a nice-looking boy, i think, but, anyway, she told me that these italian people were trying to make a marriage between robert and this handicapped girl. that's what she said. i don't know anything about that, really; so then robert went in the marines, and she got a job in new york. they went to new york about that time, and she got a job with the same people that she had been working for here. mr. jenner. hosiery? mrs. murret. yes; it was the same people, but lee didn't want to go to school over there; so he was a sort of a problem by not going to school, and one day when she was at work they came to the apartment and they got him and they took him off and put him in this place, and she had to get a lawyer, and the lawyer got him out of the place, and he told her that she had better get out of new york as fast as she could with this boy, and that's all i know about that story. and then it must have been on the way back--i didn't even know she had went to new york, but anyway, on the way back she must have come looking for a place to stay here in new orleans, and she came to my house and we put her up for i don't know how long. it was during that time that robert was getting out of the marines, because robert met her at my house after she had been staying there a couple of weeks or a month, or whatever it was, and they all went back to texas, and i didn't hear from them for a while. mr. jenner. let me interrupt you here a minute, mrs. murret. i will get back to that again in a moment. according to your story, when ekdahl died, they remained in texas until they went to new york; is that right? mrs. murret. well, i imagine that was after she separated and after robert graduated from high school. i assume that was the time she went to new york. i don't know if i'm right on that or not. mr. jenner. does the late summer of refresh your recollection as to when she went to new york? mrs. murret. ? mr. jenner. yes; , when she went to new york. mrs. murret. well, she was living here--let's see---- mr. jenner. well, she was living in fort worth before going to new york, i believe. do you think that would have been in the summer of ? mrs. murret. i can't recollect that. maybe if you give me a lead, i might remember. mr. jenner. is the name of ewing street in fort worth, tex., familiar to you? mrs. murret. no; i don't know that one. mr. jenner. does eighth avenue refresh your recollection any as to an address where they lived in fort worth? mrs. murret. i never heard from her at that address, unless that was the house that she bought, and she was having trouble with the party that bought it. mr. jenner. you mean she was having trouble with the purchaser? mrs. murret. yes; he was supposed to pay rent to her. you see, she always wanted to do everything herself, and he wasn't paying her the rent, and i don't think they was paying the other, and they lost out on the deal. mr. jenner. she reported that to you? mrs. murret. yes; she told me about that. now, i don't know if that's the same place, the same house or not, but that was one house that she spoke about. mr. jenner. is the name mrs. beverly richardson familiar to you? mrs. murret. i never heard of her. mr. jenner. mrs. llewellyn merritt? mrs. murret. i never heard of her. mr. jenner. patricia aarons? mrs. murret. i never heard of her. mr. jenner. herman conway? mrs. murret. no. mr. jenner. thomas w. turner? mrs. murret. i never heard of him. mr. jenner. while mr. ekdahl was living with her, of course, he was supporting the family, but after he left, then that was left up to her; is that right? mrs. murret. what? mr. jenner. she had to support the family when mr. ekdahl left; is that right? mrs. murret. that's right. mr. jenner. she got some assistance from her sons, did she? mrs. murret. well, i think robert was working at a supermarket, and she had to make him give her his salary, and i don't know whether john was in the coast guard at the time or not. i don't think he contributed anything--john, but i don't know. mr. jenner. was it your impression that about that time she was becoming increasingly despondent with life? mrs. murret. i wouldn't say that. she seemed to be a person, or rather, she was a person who adjusted very easily to situations. mr. jenner. she adjusted easily? mrs. murret. she knew she had to do something about these things; that she had to get out and work, and so forth, to buy these boys things that they needed and to keep them going. of course, i guess it was hard, naturally. it's hard for any woman, you know, to try to support three boys, and i don't think they ever appreciate what you do for them. mr. jenner. what makes you say that? mrs. murret. well, she told me that the boys weren't helping out, i mean, john. now, i don't know if john was married right about then or not, but i don't think he was helping out at home at all. if it had been my son, i know he would have stayed with me. he wouldn't have run out. of course, maybe john had a family and maybe he couldn't help, i don't know. mr. jenner. did she talk to you about that, or seem despondent because her children didn't help her? mrs. murret. yes; she told me about it. now, after robert got married, she stayed with robert for a while, but i think there was a little friction between her and his wife, or something. i don't know about that, except what she told me. of course, there are always two sides to every story. i don't know. you can only repeat what one party tells you. in a way, i don't think those children showed the proper respect for their mother, and i don't think that's right regardless of the hard time she was having raising them, because i guess she was a little demanding on them at times, and i think children should have the proper respect for their parents. i know no matter what my children did, i would still love them. mr. murret is a good family man too, and there's nothing he wouldn't do for his children, and i have heard him tell them that no matter what happens don't you ever talk about anybody's mother, and things like that. mr. jenner. was it during this period before she moved to new york that she told you she had, as you put it, trained lee to stay in the house? mrs. murret. well, i don't know exactly when you would say that was, but i think that's one reason why i know that lee was so quiet; he was so much by himself, without playing with other children. she did tell me that she told robert to come right home from school and things like that, because she thought it would be safer than being outside playing, but i don't know exactly when it was she was telling me that. i think that was while they were living over in fort worth, but anyway, she was having a hard time of it over there, and she either wrote me or called me--i don't remember which, but anyway, i told her that i would help her out, to send lee down here for a while, and she sent lee by train over here, and the train was about hours late. mr. jenner. where did he come from at that time, from texas? mrs. murret. from texas; yes, sir, and i asked him, i said, "lee did you meet anyone on the train? did you talk to anybody?" and he said, "no, i didn't talk to anybody. my mother told me not to talk to anybody." of course, that's a good thing sometimes, not to talk to strangers, but i guess that was one of the reasons he was so much by himself. anyway, he stayed with us for a while. mr. jenner. for how long? mrs. murret. about weeks, weeks, maybe more, until she got on her feet, and we took lee out to ball games and bought him things, and we tried to make him happy, but it seemed like he just didn't want to get out of the house. i mean, he wouldn't go out and play. he would just rather stay in the house and read or something. mr. jenner. he wouldn't want to go out and play with the other children? mrs. murret. no, he wouldn't. we didn't have a television. even though i had a husband, my sister always seemed to have more than i had. she was working, and somehow she had an automobile and a television and things that i didn't have. it was years after television had come out before we had one. we did have a radio, and lee would take it in the back room and listen to the radio and read. he would read funnybooks and i would try to get him to go outside and play with the other children, but he wouldn't go out, so finally i just made him get out, so he did for a day or so, but then he came right back in and would go right back to reading and listening to the radio, and i practically pushed him out again, because i didn't think it was healthy for him to stay in the house all the time, just to stay in that room by himself, but finally i decided that that was what he wanted, that that was his way of life, what he wanted to do, and there wasn't much i could do about it. we took him out after that, but he didn't seem to enjoy himself, so finally i told her to come and get him, that we didn't like for him to be there any more, because we had tried to do all we could for him. now, maybe she thought we didn't like him, but that wasn't it. it was just that he wouldn't go out and play, and he wanted to be alone in that room all the time, and he wouldn't even talk to the other children, and he was obviously very unhappy, but anyway she came down and got him. in fact, he told her to come and get him. mr. jenner. how do you know that? mrs. murret. because i saw the letter. mr. jenner. he wrote a letter to her asking her to come and get him? mrs. murret. yes; i wasn't supposed to see the letter, but i did. mr. jenner. you saw the letter before it was mailed? mrs. murret. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and he expressed in that letter some discomfort in being at your home, did he? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. and he was under the impression that you didn't like him? mrs. murret. i guess so, because he wrote and told her that nobody around there liked him, and here everyone was knocking themselves out for him. mr. jenner. where was your sister living at that time, in fort worth? mrs. murret. i think so; yes. mr. jenner. on the occasion that she came from new york and stopped off in new orleans, did she stay with you for a few days? mrs. murret. well, she stayed with me until she found an apartment. mr. jenner. that was in your home at french street? mrs. murret. yes, sir; and that address was changed to french street. mr. jenner. how was that? mrs. murret. well, it was the same house, but they changed the numbering of that block, but it was the same residence. they changed it to the block. mr. jenner. and how long did she stay with you on that occasion? mrs. murret. well, that must have been weeks, weeks. she was looking for a place to stay, and robert was coming out of the service, and so that's when she found this place over on exchange alley before robert came in, and she met robert at my house, and they went right over to the apartment at exchange alley that she had found, but robert left. he wouldn't stay in new orleans. mr. jenner. how many days were you looking for an apartment for her? mrs. murret. oh, i would say about a week. mr. jenner. until she found this place on exchange alley? mrs. murret. that's right. mr. jenner. what was lee doing during that time? mrs. murret. he was going to school. mr. jenner. when they came back from new york and stopped at your home and lived with you temporarily, did he go to school? mrs. murret. yes; he did. that's when she enrolled him at beauregard junior high. mr. jenner. would that have been in january ? mrs. murret. i don't know. mr. jenner. well, they left new york city, i think, either on the fifth or the seventh of january . now, we have an address here in new orleans of st. mary street. mrs. murret. oh, that was before the exchange place. she rented that from this lady who was a friend of hers. mr. jenner. was that myrtle evans? mrs. murret. yes; myrtle evans. she was a friend of hers. mr. jenner. i believe she also lived for a time at prytania, didn't she? mrs. murret. i think that's right. i'm not sure about those different places, i mean, how she would move from one to the other, but she was at several places up in there before she went to exchange place. mr. jenner. well, we appear from our records to have them living on st. mary street in new orleans in may or june of , until about february . mrs. murret. well, i don't know anything about that. i know myrtle evans was managing that apartment where she lived. mr. jenner. do you know how it was that she went to live at exchange place in new orleans? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. was that or ? mrs. murret. i don't know--whatever you have down there probably is the right year, but they lived at myrtle's house first. mr. jenner. could it have been that myrtle evans lived, in the spring of , at st. mary street? mrs. murret. i don't know. maybe that's right. i know this was a very old house where she lived. i was told that she had a family home--myrtle--and that she had renovated it into a lot of apartments for tenants. mr. jenner. how long did they stay at your house? mrs. murret. at my house? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. murret. well, like i said, weeks or weeks at the most, somewhere in there. mr. jenner. and you are pretty sure that they moved directly from your house into this place on exchange alley? mrs. murret. well, either there or to myrtle's apartment. i don't know which, to be truthful with you. mr. jenner. now, tell me about lee harvey oswald during the couple of weeks that he spent at your house. did you notice any change in him from the time you had known him previously? he would now have been about years older; isn't that right? mrs. murret. yes, sir; like i said, they had just come from new york, and she had told me about him not wanting to go to school, but she enrolled him over at beauregard school, which wasn't too far from my home. it's a school on canal street, and it's just a few blocks after you get off of the bus from lakeview, so she enrolled him there, and she gave him my address for the school, and i think, or i'm quite sure, that while he was there he was having trouble with some of the boys at the school. mr. jenner. now, will you tell me about that? just tell me what you are referring to now with relation to that school. mrs. murret. well, i can only tell you what i was told. i don't know anything myself that happened, but i can tell you what he told me, or what he told her of what happened. he said they were calling him "yankee," and so forth, names like that, and this one time he got into the bus and he sat in a seat in the negro section, which he didn't know, because he had come from new york, and he didn't know that they sat in special seats, so he just got on the bus and sat down where he could. the bus stopped in front of the school, and you can hardly get a seat anyway, so he just ran to the bus and jumped on and got a seat, like i said, in the negro section, and the boys jumped him at the end of the line. they jumped on him, and he took on all of them, and of course they beat him up, and so he came home, and that was the end of that. he didn't say anything to me about that. another time they were coming out of school at o'clock, and there were boys in back of him and one of them called his name, and he said, "lee," and when he turned around, this boy punched him in the mouth and ran, and it ran his tooth through the lip, so she had to go over to the school and take him to the dentist, and i paid for the dentist bill myself, and that's all i know about that, and he was not supposed to have started any of that at that time. now, at the beauregard school at that time, they had a very low standard, and i had no children going there and never did. my children went to jesuit high and loyola university, but they did have a very bad bunch of boys going to beauregard and they were always having fights and ganging up on other boys, and i guess lee wouldn't take anything, so he got in several scrapes like that. mr. jenner. these were things that mrs. oswald told you; is that right? mrs. murret. yes; most of it, except when he was in my home, and i observed the way he acted. he was a lonely boy most of the time, i think. mr. jenner. your children were all entered in school, were they? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. and did they study pretty hard? mrs. murret. oh, yes. mr. jenner. did you have the impression that lee harvey was doing well in school, or what was your feeling along that line? mrs. murret. i think he was doing very poor work in school most of the time. then he got to the point where he just didn't think he ought to have to go to school, and that seemed to be his whole attitude, and when i mentioned that to marguerite, that seemed to be the beginning of our misunderstanding. she didn't think her child could do anything wrong, and i could see that he wasn't interested in going to school, because i have had children of my own going to school and they always done real well in their grades. they actually seemed to like school, but i can't say that lee ever showed that he liked school. mr. jenner. when he came with his mother from new york, did he ever discuss anything with you relative to his trip to new york? mrs. murret. no; he never said anything, but my sister told me about the time they had to take him out of the apartment, when she was working, and put him in that place, and she had to get a lawyer to get him out. mr. jenner. all right. now, this boy was about years of age at that time; is that right, after they returned from new york and stayed at your place? mrs. murret. yes; and then the next i heard was when he came here, and he didn't want to go to school because he thought he already knew all that they had to teach him, so she must have allowed him to go to work for tujague's, because he had a job as a runner, going from building to building, delivering messages and things like that. mr. jenner. that was in , would that be about right? mrs. murret. when he was here; yes. mr. jenner. did this boy come over to visit you occasionally when they were living in exchange alley? mrs. murret. yes; he did. before he got the job with tujague's, he liked seafood, you see, and he used to come over from school on a friday afternoon to get his friday dinner, because he knew i always cooked seafood on friday, so he always came on friday, and then he would come again on saturday morning and i would give him money to rent a bike at city park, and you know, he thought that was one of the greatest things he could do, and he was very happy riding a bike up in city park. my children had a bike, but it seemed like he wanted to go up in the park rather than ride their bicycles, and sometimes i would have to get my children back or something, and i would have to give him more money so that he could keep his bike another hour. now, when he was going to beauregard, joyce, one of my daughters who lives in beaumont---- mr. jenner. beaumont, tex.? mrs. murret. yes, sir; well, i don't think joyce was married then. i can't think whether she was or not, but anyway, we went to the store and we bought lee a lot of clothes that we thought he might need so he would look presentable to go to school, you know, whatever a boy needs, and when we gave them to him, he said, "well, why are you all doing this for me?" and we said, "well, lee, for one thing, we love you, and another thing we want you to look nice when you go to school, like the other children." so that was that. mr. jenner. did he wear this clothing to school? mrs. murret. oh, yes; he wore the clothing that we bought him. mr. jenner. did he say anything else with regard to your purchasing this clothing for him? mrs. murret. no; he never would discuss anything. he was very independent. like one time i remember asking him a question about something, and he said, "i don't need anything from anybody," and that's when i told him, i said, "now listen, lee, don't you get so independent that you don't think you need anyone, because we all need somebody at one time or other," i said, "so don't you ever get that independent, that you should feel that you don't need anybody, because you do need somebody, sometime you will." mr. jenner. do you think that a little of this independence might have rubbed off from his mother, in the light of your experiences with your sister? mrs. murret. well, she was independent herself all right. she didn't think she needed anybody either, so i guess he sort of got that from her, but i know that there are times when we always need somebody, and if you don't have somebody to turn to, then you don't know what to do sometimes. i would hate to feel that i never needed anybody. mr. jenner. did lee seem to have that propensity, that when you did things for him, that he didn't seem to want you doing anything for him? mrs. murret. i don't think he seemed to be very appreciative for anything you did for him. now, i will say this, at the time he was receiving something, like these clothes, he seemed to be very happy about it, but it didn't last any time, and he never would put it in words at least anyway. we were probably the only people that he knew as relatives. i don't think he knew anyone else in the family. mr. jenner. in the oswald family, do you mean? mrs. murret. in the oswald family or any other family. i mean, we were the only ones he knew, and i got to know him pretty well since i took care of him while she had the other two boys in this place, after she gave birth to lee, but along with him i had these five children of my own to take care of, and i had a colored girl working for me. when john was born, i had a child that was just a few months older than john edward, but i gave her my girl for weeks, and i was struggling along with my five, and a baby the same age as she had, you know. i tried to do all i could to help her. mr. jenner. would you recognize lee's handwriting if you saw it? mrs. murret. i don't say that i would. i may. i may have expressed it before, but i thought he had a very childish handwriting. mr. jenner. did you see his handwriting often? mrs. murret. only at the time when he was going to beauregard school, with his homework. mr. jenner. without noting that you have commission exhibit no. before you, do you recognize that handwriting? mrs. murret. wait till i get my glasses. mr. jenner. all right; take your time. mrs. murret. i couldn't say i recognized it. it looks a little like, something like his writing, i mean, the way he would write, but i couldn't say for sure--i couldn't swear that that was his writing. mr. jenner. you couldn't swear that he wrote this? mrs. murret. no. mr. jenner. does it look like what you recall his handwriting was? mrs. murret. well, if it's anything, it's even a little better than i knew him to write, i might say. i never thought he wrote very well for his age, and he was then, you know. of course, a lot of boys don't write good. girls, you will find, are better at penmanship than boys. you ought to see my son's writing. he graduated from law school, and he don't write good either. now, i think he was left handed. mr. jenner. now, you have caused me complications, mrs. murret. commission exhibit has a series of pages which are numbered at the bottom, through , both inclusive, purporting to be photostatic copies of a diary or the memoirs of lee harvey oswald, written in his hand, and found by irving, tex., police and the city of dallas police, or at least certainly by the city of dallas police; in his room. mrs. murret. well, here's one that says that he was--you see, when he stopped in that saturday, you know, we didn't know where he was going, but he said he was going to be stationed at keesler field---- mr. jenner. is that keesler field at biloxi? mrs. murret. yes. but someone else said that they thought that when he came to my house on that saturday, when he stopped there, that he was coming from atlanta, ga., that day, but anyway, we took lee to lunch that day and then dropped him off, if i remember right, by the customhouse up here by the river, and that's all i remember about that, and i never saw him any more after that until he turned up in russia. mr. jenner. after he defected to russia? mrs. murret. yes, sir. i told him, i said, "lee, if you are going to be stationed over there, you can come over weekends." mr. jenner. did he say he was going to be stationed there? mrs. murret. at keesler field? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. murret. yes; he said he was going to be. mr. jenner. and that is over at biloxi, miss.? mrs. murret. yes, sir; but he never did come over and see us, and he never did write. i asked him to write, but he didn't write, and i never heard any more from him. i didn't even know that he was back from russia. mr. jenner. and you didn't know that he had gone to russia either; is that right? mrs. murret. that's right; i didn't know he had gone over there at all. i didn't know he went until after he went. mr. jenner. how did you learn he was in russia? did his mother tell you that he was in russia? mrs. murret. that he had defected, yes. that was about the time she had this accident, i remember, and then he got out of the marines. mr. jenner. now, that was before he defected; right? mrs. murret. yes; that was before he went to russia. he got out of the marines and he came to see her, and he had all that money, but he didn't give her any of it, i don't think, but $ . i think he gave her $ , she told me, and then he left, supposedly to come to new orleans, so she thought, so i didn't hear from her any more until she learned by him from letter that he was in russia. mr. jenner. so she told you that; is that right? mrs. murret. she told me; yes, sir. mr. jenner. was the fact that he had defected prominently displayed in the new orleans papers? mrs. murret. well, not here so much, but in fort worth and so forth, over there, they mentioned it; they made quite a to do about it. mr. jenner. there was nothing in the new orleans papers about it? mrs. murret. i don't think. there might have been. mr. jenner. well, at least it didn't come to your attention? mrs. murret. i don't think they had anything here about that at all, but they did have it a lot in the fort worth paper. mr. jenner. did she send any of those newspaper clippings to you? mrs. murret. no; she came down here. mr. jenner. to new orleans? mrs. murret. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and she told you all about it? mrs. murret. she told me all about it, what she knew about it. she didn't know too much about it, she said, why he did it or anything like that, but she said that he had a right to go any place he wanted to go, i believe. mr. jenner. did she seem to think he was living in the pattern that she had brought him up in? mrs. murret. what's that? mr. jenner. did she seem to think that he was living in the pattern that she had brought him up in, that is, to be independent? mrs. murret. well, it's hard to judge that. when you only have one person, or one child, maybe you do have a tendency to feel that way, but who knows what's in a person's mind. i think your mind is what really belongs to you, and i don't think anyone knows what's running through your mind. i really believe that, so i couldn't tell you how she felt about it, or how he felt about it, or what made him do the things he did. i can only tell you what i think, but that doesn't mean that i know, because i really don't. you just can't tell what's running through a person's mind. you may think you know their mind, but you don't, i don't think. i think he went over there because he wasn't satisfied with the life he was living, and maybe he wanted to see how it was over there, i guess; i don't know. mr. jenner. did you have any conversations with him about it? mrs. murret. after he came back? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. murret. no. oh, i spoke about it, and he might say something once in awhile about how they lived or something, but he never did discuss it. mr. jenner. did you have any talks with your sister or with him when he was working as a delivery boy or messenger boy for tujague's? mrs. murret. no. i didn't know anything other than he was working there, and he was a runner, and that sort of thing, for them. mr. jenner. now, he had not yet graduated from high school; is that right? mrs. murret. i don't believe he had graduated from high school yet; no, sir. he came out of this junior high, and like i said, i didn't even know he went to easton. i remember one morning he came over to the house, and he said that he wanted to get on the ball team, but he didn't have any shoes and he didn't have a glove, so i said, "well, lee, we can fix you up," and i gave him a glove, but i don't think we had shoes to fit him. joyce's husband sent him a pair of shoes from beaumont, a pair of baseball shoes, and i told lee, i said, "lee, when you need anything, just ask me for it, and if there's a way to get it for you, we will get it." so then he got on the team, i think, but he got off as quick as he got on. i don't know why. he never discussed that with us as to why that was, and we never found out. mr. jenner. he never discussed that with you? mrs. murret. no; i don't think he got on the team though. he never did actually play on it, i don't think. for one thing, i don't think he was the type of boy who was too good an athlete. like a lot of boys, i guess they wanted him to be one of those that sit on the bench, and he didn't like to sit on the bench, so when they didn't let him play on the team and wanted him to sit on the bench, i guess he just left. i don't know that though. mr. jenner. you think that's what happened to lee, do you? mrs. murret. i think that's what might have happened to him. i don't know though. mr. jenner. was he a competitive person? mrs. murret. was he what? mr. jenner. was he competitive? mrs. murret. no; i don't think so. like i said, at school his only remark about that was that he didn't think he had to go to school to learn these subjects, because he knew all of them. he said he wasn't learning anything, and it was just a waste of time. i told him, i said, "lee, that's not the idea. it's not a waste of time. you have got to go through school in order to graduate, because you need to graduate to get anywhere in this world." i told him, "you are going to have to go on to college and make something out of yourself, even if you think you know all the subjects." i think that's one of the things that marguerite got a little put out with me about. she always wanted to let lee have his way about everything. even after he came back from russia, i talked to him about that, but he answered me the same way. he said he didn't see any use in going to school, that he knew all the subjects. mr. jenner. did your children discuss lee in your presence? mrs. murret. did they discuss lee? mr. jenner. yes. what did your children think of lee? mrs. murret. they loved lee, i think. he was in my home, and he acted like any other boy would act, no different, as far as that goes. i didn't have television then, so he would eat dinner and then listen to the radio and go to bed, and get up the next morning and do the same things. actually, the children didn't have much contact with him, because he wouldn't go out and play at all. they really loved him a lot, though. they have always loved him. mr. jenner. then eventually they went to texas; is that right? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. now, was that in the fall of ? mrs. murret. i think so; yes. mr. jenner. they left new orleans and went to texas in ; right? mrs. murret. that's right. that's when he joined the marines. i don't know what that date is, but i know he joined the marines after they left. mr. jenner. your sister didn't tell you and lee didn't tell you that they were about to move to texas? mrs. murret. well, i think that's about the time that robert came in, because the next thing she said was that robert didn't want to stay here. he didn't want to make his home here, he said. he said new orleans was not his home, but that his friends were in texas, so i don't know if robert left first, or if they all left together. in fact, i didn't know she was leaving until she rang up one day--she had a sewing machine that belonged to us, a portable sewing machine that we had loaned her, and she called one day and said she was already packed and ready to go to the train station, or whatever it was the way she was going, and all she said was, "we're leaving; come get your machine." we never did get the machine. when we went up there, the place was locked up, and we never did get it back. mr. jenner. this was a portable electric sewing machine? mrs. murret. yes; she told us she was leaving right then, and to come and get it. she said she would leave it there in the house or something like that, or it's in the house or something, and that was it. like i said, when we got over there the place was locked up and we didn't get the machine back. she had some furniture that belonged to her there, i think, so i don't know whether she took anything with her besides her clothing or not; but she left. mr. jenner. and where was this she called you from, do you know? mrs. murret. well, they were over on exchange place at that time. mr. jenner. exchange? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. did you go right over there to get the machine? mrs. murret. no; i didn't. when we did go over the place was all locked up. mr. jenner. so then that was the circumstance, as you knew it, after robert got out of the service? mrs. murret. yes; and came to new orleans. she thought he might live here and work and help support the family. mr. jenner. but he didn't like new orleans? mrs. murret. that's right. he said all his friends were in texas, and he wanted to move over there. mr. jenner. he said he wanted to live in texas where his friends were? mrs. murret. yes; that's what he said. he said texas was his home, not new orleans. mr. jenner. and so they moved to texas? mrs. murret. yes; and shortly after that--i forget when--but robert married, and i didn't even know he was married. mr. jenner. you didn't even know that? mrs. murret. no. mr. jenner. what kind of boy was robert? mrs. murret. i don't know too much about robert. after they moved away, i didn't know too much about robert, and i didn't know john too well either. there's one thing. robert and john, they never recognized one another as brothers. mr. jenner. tell me about that. mrs. murret. they were stepbrothers, but having lived together from real small children, you would think that they would love one another as brothers, you know. you would think being small children, they would accept each other as brothers and wouldn't think anything about being halfbrothers or stepbrothers. mr. jenner. except they had two different names, pic and oswald; right? mrs. murret. yes; that's right. mr. jenner. tell me this, mrs. murret: do you think that the fact that your sister marguerite insisted on john edward pic retaining his pic name despite the fact that her husband oswald wanted to adopt him, contributed to that feeling between the two boys? mrs. murret. well, i don't think, because john was years old when she married oswald, and then robert was born a few years after that, so i don't think that would bring that about, but that's what she told me, that oswald wanted to adopt john, and she said, "no; john has a father, and his name is pic, and let's leave it at pic and let the father contribute to him." mr. jenner. well, perhaps i didn't frame my question right. you were under the impression that the boys were conscious of the difference in the name pic as against oswald, weren't you? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. and you do recall that each regarded the other as his brother; isn't that right? mrs. murret. well, i think lee loved robert a lot, but maybe he wasn't too fond of john. in a different way maybe he didn't love john as much as he did robert. that's just what i think. mr. jenner. how did john and robert get along? mrs. murret. i don't know. i was never in their presence too much at that age. i kept them when mrs. oswald gave birth to lee, but they were little then, you know, and they seemed to be getting along all right. i had them for about a week, and i remember sitting outside and they were saying that it had better not be a girl. "because we don't want any girls in this family." mr. jenner. oh well, that was boy talk, was it not? mrs. murret. oh, yes; but they did say, "it had better not be a girl." mr. jenner. when did you first become aware that lee had entered the marines? mrs. murret. well, not until he came in that saturday. mr. jenner. when he wanted to be stationed at keesler field? mrs. murret. that's right, that's what he said when he came through on a saturday, but then i never heard any more from lee at all. mr. jenner. now, you have already touched on some information regarding when he went to russia. marguerite communicated with you about the fact that he was in russia; is that right? mrs. murret. well, like i said, my son-in-law contacted her because we hadn't heard from her in a very long time, so he looked in the telephone book over there and found her number. mr. jenner. what is your son-in-law's name? mrs. murret. emile o'brien. he called her and he told us that she said that she had this accident, like i told you before, so i called her, i think, or her brother--i can't remember which. anyway, we sent her a box of clothes at christmas time, anything that we could think of, and then i sent her money at different times during the week, as much as i could afford and so forth, and she said she was trying to get this hardship discharge for lee so he could leave the marines and come home. it was pretty near time for him to get out, but when he came in, he only stayed there for days at her house, or day, or whatever it was, and he said, "well, this is it; this is not for me," and he left, and that's when she called me and she said she thought he was coming to new orleans and that he would be coming by bus, she thought, and that maybe he would be coming to my house, but for me not to tell him that she had called me, but i never saw lee or anything. mr. jenner. did he contact you at all? mrs. murret. no; i never saw lee or never heard any more from him until the next thing i knew was when she told me she received this letter, i think, from russia. mr. jenner. she called you and told you about that? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. now, during all this time that he was in the marines, he didn't write you, did he? mrs. murret. i never heard from him; no, sir. mr. jenner. the only time he saw you was on that one saturday? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. and when he was here on that saturday, he told you he was going to be stationed at keesler field. mrs. murret. that's right. mr. jenner. did he say anything about what his experiences had been in the marines? mrs. murret. he didn't say anything. it was a rush affair. he came up and rang the bell, and he was in uniform, and he said, "what do you think, the people on the bus thought i was a cadet, and here i am a big marine." we took him out to lunch, and we left him off at the custom house, like i said, and that was the end of that. but, maybe you might like to know this: before lee went into the marines, while he was in new orleans and they were going to live on exchange alley, i think he tried to join the service then, a branch of the service. i don't know which branch or anything, but anyway, he must have gone to the induction station and they told him that he could sign up if his mother would sign. now, he met her in town, i think, and he was all excited and he wanted to join the marines or whatever it was he was going to join. i can't remember if it was the marines, and he said, "if you will sign for me, i can go." and she said, "no; i am not going to sign for you," so he was very indignant about the whole thing, and he told her that she was stopping him from going in, so then that went around for a while, and then he came back and told her that if she would sign an affidavit, go to the lawyer's office and sign an affidavit, that he would be able to get in, so she went around to the lawyer's office with him, and i think it was in mr. sere's office--he has expired since then--and mr. sere told her, "well, since you can't do anything with him, and if that's what he wants to do, well, go ahead and let him go." so the affidavit was signed for him to go in the service, so then the next step was that when he got over to the place--i don't know whether it was the auditorium or not that they sent him over with his suitcase--but the person who was in charge there wouldn't let him sign up, wouldn't let him go, and that was that. mr. jenner. you mean they wouldn't take the affidavit? they wouldn't admit him on the affidavit? mrs. murret. that's right, and so that upset him for a while, but he said very little about it. and then he met someone in this branch of the service who had taken a liking to him, and he used to go over there and converse with him about different things in the service and so forth. i don't know who he was or what they talked about or anything like that, though. mr. jenner. was lee an industrious boy as a high school boy? he didn't seem to have worked much after school. mrs. murret. well, of course, he was a young kid. i don't know what he did at home. i know i never did have anything for him to do at my house. mr. jenner. did your boys work after school when they did go to school? mrs. murret. my boys? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. murret. my boys--let's see. they always went to school, and during vacation time, well they had paper routes and things like that. mr. jenner. that's what i mean. mrs. murret. one of my boys had a paper route, and he bought about $ worth of bonds, because i figured that i didn't need his money to feed him, and by buying a bond every weeks, he would have enough to go to school later on, and it really came in handy, and then he used to pass out public service bills. one of my boys had three jobs at one time. he used to go to loyola, where he was studying sociology, and he was given a fellowship to work in father victor's office. he was a priest, and he helped the father write a book, so he was given a fellowship that last year, but he always worked his way, and marilyn had went to school and she had worked her way through school too, and joyce, we helped pay her way through, but she had to leave school for year and go to work in order to get back again to school, but now lee just didn't think he had to go to school. he said that he was smart enough and that he couldn't learn anything at school, that nobody could teach him anything. i think his mother thought he was very smart too, evidently, you know, because she always upheld his brightness, and he was bright, you know. mr. jenner. did he do a lot of reading when he stayed at your home? mrs. murret. well, he didn't do much reading at my house, but she said he stayed in the room up there where they lived and read all the time, and that he had this little radio that he had taken apart and fixed, and so forth, things like that, and he said he didn't have any friends because it was no use, because they didn't like to do the things he liked to do. mr. jenner. who didn't like to do the things he liked to do? mrs. murret. lee's friends wouldn't like to do the things lee liked to do. lee said that. most of the boys had money, you know, and went out on the weekends with girls and so forth, but lee couldn't afford those things, so he didn't mix, but he did like to visit the museums and walk around the front and go to the park and do things like that, and you very seldom can get a teenager to do that kind of thing these days not even then. they don't all like that type of life, you know, but that's what he liked. mr. jenner. was he inclined to want to be by himself? mrs. murret. what's that? mr. jenner. was he inclined to want to be by himself? mrs. murret. well, he said that that was the reason why, because i asked him, "why don't you go out with the boys from school?" and so forth, and he said, "well, they don't like the same things i like." but i do remember when he was at my house he used to call some little girl all the time and talk to her quite a long time on the telephone, and i think he made friends with some boy at beauregard school when he was in the sea scouts for a while. he had a uniform and everything. he didn't stay in there too long, i don't think. mr. jenner. he wasn't in the sea scouts too long? mrs. murret. no; he wasn't. mr. jenner. is there a liberty hotel here in new orleans? mrs. murret. there could be. mr. jenner. or the hotel liberty? mrs. murret. there might be; i don't know. mr. jenner. what kind of apartment was that that your sister marguerite had on exchange alley? mrs. murret. well, that was a pretty nice apartment she had there. mr. jenner. on exchange alley? mrs. murret. yes; that was a nice apartment that she had. a lot of people would be surprised, because with all those poolrooms and everything down below, it looks like a pretty rough section, but she had a real nice apartment. i know we read in the papers about, you know, condemning that section where the boy lived, and so forth, you know, and all that sort of stuff, but they would be surprised at how nice an apartment that was up there that they had. a lot of people like to live in the french quarter just because it's the vieux carre, and because of that reason rents are pretty high. anyway, her rent was considered reasonable. she had her own bedroom, and she had a large living room, and breakfast room and bath. it was a very nice place, and she fixed it up real nice. lee had the bedroom, and my sister used to sleep on the studio couch and she found the apartment really convenient, being right off of canal street and everything. if she wanted to go to the movie, it was just down the block, and if she wanted to go to any other stores, she was right in that area where she could go, so actually it was economical to live that close to canal street, so she actually saved money that way, she told me. of course, they had these poolrooms and so forth in that section, but i don't think that lee ever went into those places, because he never was a boy that got into any trouble. for one thing, he never did go out. we all knew that he should have been going out, but he stayed in and read or something. the average teenager who was going to school at beauregard would have probably been in there shooting pool and things like that, but he didn't do that. his morals were very good. his character seemed to be good, and he was very polite and refined. there was one thing he did: he walked very straight. he always did, and some people thought that was part of his attitude, that he was arrogant or something like that, but of course you can't please everybody. mr. jenner. but he did have a good opinion of himself, did he not? mrs. murret. oh, yes; he did. mr. jenner. did you hear from him when he was in russia? mrs. murret. one time i heard--it was a postcard, and i think it was the last christmas that he spent in russia, and he wrote this postcard, and all he had on it was, "merry christmas," and he said on it, "write to my mother," and he gave me the box number on the card. now, i wanted to keep this card, but i had the children at the house at the time, and i laid the card on the side, and i didn't copy the address when i did write out a postcard to send to him, and in the meantime gene---- mr. jenner. that's your son gene? mrs. murret. yes; he was at the seminary, and they were saving foreign stamps in connection with something over at the seminary, so he took that card with him, and after i had written the card to lee, the children tore it up, so i didn't have the address any more. when i wrote to lee--i didn't want to write anything in a letter, you know, so i just wrote it on an open card, but the children tore that up and i lost the address, so i couldn't write to him at that point. mr. jenner. you did write a card, but your children tore it up? mrs. murret. well, my grandchildren; it was just a postcard, you know. mr. jenner. so there wasn't any communication between you or any member of your family and lee while he was in russia, is that right? mrs. murret. that's right. we just got that one card from lee, and i never answered it because the card was destroyed before i could mail it. mr. jenner. when next did you hear about lee? i mean now, before you saw him, when next did you hear about him? mrs. murret. well, i just heard that he was over in russia, that he had defected to that country, but they came to new orleans after that, and then they went back to texas. mr. jenner. you mean marguerite? mrs. murret. yes; they were over here after that. mr. jenner. did she live in new orleans for a while then? mrs. murret. no. mr. jenner. she just came for a visit? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. did she stay with you? mrs. murret. she stayed with me; yes. mr. jenner. and you had discussions during that time about his going to russia? mrs. murret. well, not too much. mr. jenner. what statements were made, if any? i mean, what was your impression? mrs. murret. well, she seemed kind of upset about it. i mean, she tried to get him to get back to the states, but she said he didn't talk to her over the telephone. mr. jenner. you mean she tried to reach him by telephone? mrs. murret. yes, sir. the paper office over there in fort worth was the one who contacted lee at the hotel over there, but he didn't talk. he hung up. i believe robbie tried to get him back, and so forth, but that's all i know about it. so then we didn't hear any more from her after she left here. she said she was going to get lost. mr. jenner. she said that to you? mrs. murret. yes. she said nobody was going to know where she was going. mr. jenner. why? mrs. murret. i don't know why, so then i didn't hear from her any more until one day the telephone rang and i answered the phone, and lee said, "hello, aunt lillian," and i didn't recognize his voice, and not thinking about lee, you know, and i have other nephews, and i said, "who is this?" and he said, "this is lee," and i said, "lee?" and he said, "yes." i said, "when did you get out? when did you get back? what are you doing?" he said, "i have been back since about a year-and-a-half now," and i said, "well, i'm glad you got back," and he said, "i'm married, and i got a baby." i think he said she was months old, so anyway, he said, "would you put me up for a while?" and he said, "i am down here trying to find a job; would you put me up for a while?" and i said, "well, we will be glad to, lee," but then i started thinking, because if he had a wife and child, i would have to make other arrangements maybe, and so i asked him, i said, "lee, are you alone?" and he said, "yes," and i said, "well, come right on out." mr. jenner. this was in may or april ; is that right? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. just about a year ago? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. do you remember whether it was may or april, which month it was. mrs. murret. it was way after easter, i know. it was possibly the week after easter. mr. jenner. all right. now, he arrived at your home; is that right? mrs. murret. yes, he took the streetcar and bus, i suppose, to be coming to my house, and he came out to the house and he was very poorly dressed. mr. jenner. how was he dressed? mrs. murret. he just had on a sportshirt, and a very poorly pair of pants. mr. jenner. did he have a suit coat on? mrs. murret. a suit coat? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. murret. no, he didn't. mr. jenner. was your husband home? mrs. murret. no. mr. jenner. was anybody other than you home? mrs. murret. no. mr. jenner. what luggage did he have when he arrived at your home? mrs. murret. i don't think he came with anything over to the house. he could have one of these bags, i mean when he came to my home from the bus station. mr. jenner. now, this is particularly important to us. let me take you back now to just a year ago, and tell me first of all, as to your recollection of whether he had any luggage with him when he arrived at your house. mrs. murret. well, i asked him over the telephone where he was, and he said he was at the bus station, and when i asked him to come out, he came right on out, and when he came into my house, i think he was only carrying just a little handbag, they call it. mr. jenner. what color was it? mrs. murret. possibly it was brown. mr. jenner. brown? mrs. murret. i think so. mr. jenner. what kind of material was it? mrs. murret. what the handbag was made of? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. murret. i think it was just cloth. mr. jenner. a cloth bag? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. did he have it in just one hand? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. it was not a marine duffelbag or anything like that? mrs. murret. oh, no. mr. jenner. it wasn't too large, then? mrs. murret. no; it was small. mr. jenner. the witness indicates about inches. mrs. murret. it was just an ordinary bag, like athletes use to put their clothes in, something like that. mr. jenner. and that's all he had on that occasion? you are sure of that? mrs. murret. when he arrived at the house; yes, sir. but he had things over at the bus station. mr. jenner. i see. mrs. murret. he had a duffelbag and some boxes over there, i know. mr. jenner. how do you know that? mrs. murret. how do i know that? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. murret. because i asked mr. murret to go over to the bus station and pick up all that stuff and bring it back to the house, which he did, and they put it in the garage. he wanted to leave it there until he found an apartment. mr. jenner. and did mr. murret go to the bus station with lee? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. that evening? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. in your automobile? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. and he picked up the materials at the bus station and other packages; is that right? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. were you home when they came back from the bus station? mrs. murret. i might have been inside. i didn't go into the garage, if that's what you mean, but that's where they put the things, in the garage. mr. jenner. did you see anything in the garage eventually? mrs. murret. well, i saw a duffelbag out there, and i saw ordinary cardboard boxes with things in them, and i don't know what was in anything. it had u.s. marine written over it. mr. jenner. over the duffelbag? mrs. murret. yes, sir. mr. jenner. how many duffelbags were there? mrs. murret. quite a few, i think. mr. jenner. more than two duffelbags? mrs. murret. i could be wrong, but i think there were more. mr. jenner. would you say that there were at least two duffelbags, and that there could have been more than two? mrs. murret. yes. i think some of the boxes must have contained baby clothes and things like that, and in fact, i was wondering how in the world he got all of that stuff on the bus. i never did ask him, but he really had a load of stuff with him. it was all there at the bus station though. mr. jenner. did he have any long packages with him? mrs. murret. i wouldn't know that. do you mean any visible long packages? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. murret. i didn't see any. mr. jenner. these cardboard boxes, were they ordinary cardboard boxes that a person would pack things in? mrs. murret. yes; i guess there were clothes in those. mr. jenner. did he have any long flat package with him? mrs. murret. i didn't see any. mr. jenner. did you ever see any package wrapped in unbroken or tan wrapping paper? mrs. murret. i don't think. like i said, i knew there were all kinds of things back in there, all bunched up, more or less. everything was in such a little space back there, but it was all together, and my washing machine is out there, but i never one time pried into or disarranged any of that stuff or anything like that. i figured that wasn't any of my business. mr. jenner. did you see any package that stood up on end at all? mrs. murret. i didn't see any like that; no. mr. jenner. anything that looked like, oh, say, a tent pole, long and hard? mrs. murret. no; i didn't see anything that looked like that. there were just some boxes and duffelbags and bundles that i saw, and i do know one time he was back there when i was back there and he pulled out a russian cap that they wear in russia, and boots, you know, these leather russian boots, but that's all i saw. mr. jenner. did the russian cap have any insignia on it, or anything like that? mrs. murret. yes; the russian cap had fur on it, like the russians wear in cold weather. mr. jenner. did it have any insignia on it, or a red star, or hammer and sickle or anything like that? mrs. murret. no; not that i saw. what struck me as odd that was that lee didn't seem to have anything to wear. i told him, "lee, you don't look too presentable. i am going to buy you some clothes." my boys were all big, all over feet, so nothing they had would fit lee, so he said no, that he had a lot of things, but that they were all packed. he said that's all right, but all he had on at the time was a t-shirt and pants, and i think he had only about two t-shirts with him. mr. jenner. you say he had no suit coat? mrs. murret. no; and only one pair of shoes. i even offered to buy him a pair of shoes, but he said no, that he had some shoes packed away. mr. jenner. did he ever get them out? mrs. murret. no, he didn't get them out. he said he just wanted to put up there for a few days, you see, because he was trying to find a job, he told me, and then he said he would send for marina, his wife, and the child, and i asked him to tell us what she looks like, you know, to describe her, and he said, "well, she's just like any other american housewife." he said, "she wears shorts," and so forth, just like any other american housewife, and he said he would have to have a newspaper so he could scan the want ads and try to find himself a job, and so every morning he would get up and go through the newspaper looking for a job, and he would go out every morning with his newspaper, and he wouldn't come back until the afternoon, until supper time. i had supper anywhere from : to o'clock, and he was there on time every day for supper, and after supper he didn't leave the house. he would sit down about : or o'clock, and look at some television programs, and then he would go right to bed, and he did that every day while he was at the house, and so then on the first sunday he was there, he was talking--we were talking about relatives, and he said to me, "do you know anything about the oswalds?" and i said, no, i said that i didn't. i said, "i don't know any of them other than your father, and i saw your uncle one time." i said, "i don't know anything about the family; i don't know them," so he said, "well, you know, i don't know any of my relatives." he said, "you are the only one i know." now, this was on a sunday, and lee had come to my house on a monday. now what he didn't tell me was that on sunday he must have gone to the cemetery where his father was buried. that's right at the end of the lakeview line, where i live. he went to the cemetery. i guess he went to ask the person in charge about the grave. anyway, he found it, and while he was there he saw someone who knew the oswalds. i didn't get whether she was related or not, but they got to talking about the family some way. i don't know what all they talked about, but anyway, lee looked in the paper and finally he found this job--i don't know where it was, but it was up on rampart street, and they wanted someone to letter. mr. jenner. to letter? mrs. murret. to do lettering work, yes, and so he called this man and the man said to come on out, so he went on out there to see about this job. first, while he was waiting for the appointment time, he sat down and tried to letter, and well, it was a little sad, because he couldn't letter as well as my next door neighbor's -year-old child, but i didn't say anything, so when he got back he said, "well, i didn't get the job." he said, "they want someone who can letter, and i don't know how to do that." so that's when he got into the subject of the oswald family again, and he sat down and took the telephone book, and he called all the oswalds in the telephone book until he came to the one person who was the right oswald, and this was an elderly lady living in metairie. she was the wife of one of the oswalds, so he told her--he had a map; he always carried a map with him to find directions. if he wanted to go to a certain place, he would never ask you how to get there. he would always take this map and mark the route out himself. so he went to see this lady, and she was the wife of one of the brothers in the oswald family, and she told him that everybody was dead, i think, and she gave him a picture of his father, and she gave him some other pictures, and then she invited him back. he said she was a very nice lady, and was very, very happy, but i don't think he ever went back to see her. so the next day, monday, well, he went back to his job hunting again, and he continued that way until one morning he saw this job with the riley coffee co., and he went down and applied and he got the job, and he came home waving the newspaper, and he grabbed me around the neck, and he even kissed me, and he said, "i got it; i got it!" mr. jenner. he was quite happy that he had gotten work? mrs. murret. yes; i said, "well, lee, how much does it pay?" and he said, "well, it don't pay very much." he said, "it don't pay very much, but i will get along on it." i said, "well, you know, lee, you are really not qualified to do anything too much. if you don't like this job, why don't you try to go back to school at night time and see if you can't learn a trade or whatever you think you can prepare yourself to do." and he said, "no, i don't have to go back to school. i don't have to learn anything. i know everything." so that's the way it was. i couldn't tell him any more. i had told him what i thought he should do, but if he thought he was smart enough, then there was nothing else i could do. mr. jenner. did you get the impression when you were talking along these lines that he really believed he was that smart? mrs. murret. he believed that he was smart; yes, sir. mr. jenner. you don't think he was spoofing you? mrs. murret. no; i think he really thought he was smart, and i don't think he envied anybody else. he thought he was very smart, and i don't think he envied anyone else, because he thought he knew it all, i guess. he didn't think he had to have a profession or anything else. we didn't even know when he left this job. mr. jenner. well, before we get to that, while he was living with you, did he read while he was home at night? mrs. murret. did he read? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. murret. no. mr. jenner. he didn't read any books? mrs. murret. you see, he went out all day. he would get up and leave early in the morning. he wouldn't eat any breakfast. i would try to fix him an egg and bacon or something like that, but he didn't want anything to eat for breakfast and he wouldn't take a thing. we always eat a big breakfast in our family, but he wouldn't eat a thing. he would just get dressed and go out with his newspaper to look for a job, and come home in time for supper and then he would sit around a while and watch television and then go to bed, and he followed that same pattern all while he was with us, until he got this job with the riley coffee co. mr. jenner. did he ever talk to you about russia during that time, his life in russia, and how he felt about it? mrs. murret. no; the only thing he spoke about was the relatives. he said in russia all the relatives knew one another and he said they all lived together, and he said if one comes in and he wants to stay overnight, that they will put him up in a corner, or help him out with clothes and so forth, but of course he worked in a factory while he was over there. mr. jenner. did he tell you that? mrs. murret. well, he did tell me he worked in a factory and he did work around the machinery, but that's all he told me about that, but then when he got this job with the riley coffee co. and started to work there, he said, well, that was no different than any other factory in russia. i said, "well, what do you mean by that?" he said, "well, the equipment was just as bad, the machines, and the work conditions were not any different from russia," but that's all he would say about it. we didn't talk about it too much. mr. jenner. do you mean he inferred that the machinery at the riley coffee co. was outdated as compared with the machinery in russia? mrs. murret. yes; as compared with the machinery in russia, and he said you had to work hard. he said they work you hard at the plant. mr. jenner. did he say anything about his reaction to russia? mrs. murret. no; he never spoke about russia that way. he would only talk when you would ask him a question, that's all. he wouldn't ever tell you anything. when he first came in and stayed with us. i asked him a few things about russia, but he wouldn't talk much about it. he never expressed an opinion about russia at all. about all he would say was that they were just about like any other people. that's about all he would say. mr. jenner. he didn't talk then about his views on the russian government? mrs. murret. no; not to me. there was no time really. the way things were, like i said, he would come home in time for supper and then watch a little television and go to bed, and he never spoke about anything. mr. jenner. did he ever discuss his life in the marines with you? mrs. murret. no; he never talked about that either. he did say that he was wanting to get out of russia so that he could bring his wife and child over to this country, and he said the immigration department loaned him $ and some odd cents, to use to get out of russia, and he said he worked for the dallas or fort worth, for some photographer in there, one of those places--i forget which--but he did say that he worked until he paid it all back, and i said, "if you made that much money on that job, why did they let you go?" and he said, "well, they didn't want a third man on the job," or something like that. mr. jenner. they didn't want a third man on the job? mrs. murret. that's what he said, that they didn't want a third man on the job. mr. jenner. and you say that was in dallas that he worked for this photographer? mrs. murret. i think it was dallas that he said; yes. it was either dallas or fort worth. i think it was dallas. he said he liked the job all right, but he said they let him go because they didn't want a third man. now, i don't know if that's a true story or not. so then he came here to look for a job, and he said when he found a job, that he would have marina and the child to come over here. i think before that time marina had called, but he hadn't found anything then, so when he called and told her he had this job, she must have been all packed and everything, because they got here so quick. mr. jenner. well, did you hear him talk to her over the telephone? mrs. murret. well, he spoke in russian, in the russian language. mr. jenner. did you say anything to him about that? mrs. murret. did i say anything about him speaking to her in russian? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. murret. no; i didn't, but i did wonder about it, here was a man speaking in russian who was an american, and he had had his wife over in this country for a year and a half, he said, and i did wonder why he didn't try to teach her english, but anyway, he called her after he got the job, and he got right off the phone and said, "i am going out and look for an apartment." so sure enough he found an apartment the very first day, and he came back and he said, "i have found an apartment," and i think it was $ a month, he said the rent was. then he told me about a mrs. paine who he said had been very nice to marina who was going to bring marina on down with the baby, and he said, "i would like to get a very nice apartment with an extra room so if mrs. paine wants to stay a few days, we will have a place for her to stay." and i wondered about that too, renting an expensive apartment like he had in mind, but apartments were hard to find about that time, and i told him, "if you have a nice apartment, i think you had better keep it, because it's just temporary," and it was a nice apartment, or at least that's what he told me. he said, "do you know how i got that apartment?" and i said, "no, i don't," and he said, "well, i'll tell you. i rode around a while, and i decided to stop at myrtle's house----" mr. jenner. that's myrtle evans? mrs. murret. yes, sir. mr. jenner. all right, go ahead. mrs. murret. well, he said he stopped at myrtle's house and went up to the door, and she came to the door but she didn't recognize him, she didn't recognize lee. mr. jenner. he was telling you this; is that right? mrs. murret. yes; he told me how he did that, and he said he asked myrtle did she have an apartment, that he was looking for an apartment for his wife and baby who were coming from texas, and so myrtle said, "well, i'm sorry, but i only have an apartment on the second floor, and i don't think that would be good, you know, for your wife." lee said to her, "do you know who i am?" and she said, "no." and he said, "i am lee oswald." she said, "well, don't tell me! lee, i would never have recognized you." she said, "the last i heard of you from your aunt, she told me you were in russia," because i did see myrtle one day and she knew me. i never was what you would call a friend of myrtle, but of course she knew who i was, because we got to know each other at a card party where i was working at jesuit's, and she asked about lee at that time, and i told her that lee had defected to russia. so she told lee that the last time she had heard of him, he was in russia, and he said, "well, but i am back, and i am married to a russian girl." so myrtle says, "well, come on, lee," and i think she gave lee some lunch, and then she decided to help him find an apartment. she told him, "we are not going to a real estate office, because prices are high, and i know because i manage apartments myself, so we will just ride in and out the streets and see what we can find." so they got in her car and went riding up magazine street, and there was a sign on a house, apartment for rent, and so they went and knocked and inquired about the apartment, and the lady said how much it was, and it was very clean with a new stove and a new refrigerator, and it was newly wall papered and it had a floor furnace and a large living room and a bedroom and bath connecting the bedroom, and another small room and kitchen and a front porch, and a closed-in yard, and so myrtle said to lee, "lee, this is great. you had better take this place." well, lee said, "well, i don't know. the ceilings are high and marina doesn't like high ceilings," but she said, "well, i think you had better get this place, because it's all you can afford," so he said he would take it. but i don't think marina ever liked high ceilings, but anyway, after he called marina, then they came in on saturday. mr. jenner. excuse me for interrupting, but before we get them coming in, did he ever say anything to you as to why he left russia? mrs. murret. did he say why he left russia? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. murret. he never did say why; no, sir. i was always under the impression that he was just tired of being over there and wanted to come back. we were trying to find out how in the world he got out with a russian wife, and i asked him that question, and he told me that immigration had loaned him the money, and he said that marina's uncle had helped them to get out, and that he was a retired army general. mr. jenner. did you have the impression that he was, oh, never quite satisfied with anything when he was in russia, that when he was over there, he didn't like it? mrs. murret. well, he didn't say that to me. mr. jenner. all right, now you say that marina then came to new orleans after he had called and said that he had found a job; is that right? mrs. murret. yes; she came with mrs. paine. mr. jenner. did mrs. paine drive her? mrs. murret. yes; they came in mrs. paine's car. in fact, i think he got that apartment possibly on a thursday. mr. jenner. at magazine street? mrs. murret. yes, sir; thursday or friday, or whatever it was. mr. jenner. that was the ninth of september ; is that right? mrs. murret. i guess that was the date. mr. jenner. did lee move in on monday? mrs. murret. no; lee moved in right away, on saturday. in fact, he moved in on the th, i think, or the th. anyway after he got it, he moved in himself the next day, and then marina came in on the saturday. mr. jenner. well, saturday was the seventh, sunday was the eighth, and monday was the ninth. mrs. murret. of may? mr. jenner. oh, i am looking at september; i'm sorry. now, let's see. the th of may was on a thursday, and that's when he got the apartment, the th of may, and he moved in the next day; is that right? mrs. murret. that's right, and he came back to my house on that saturday morning. mr. jenner. that's the th? mrs. murret. yes; and marina and mrs. paine were coming in on saturday, and they arrived there about o'clock in the afternoon, around that time, and then he took all the things he had out in the garage over to the apartment. mr. jenner. were you present when he did that? mrs. murret. i went to see the apartment. mr. jenner. but were you present when he took the things out of your garage? mrs. murret. you mean in the garage? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. murret. no; i wasn't. mr. jenner. you didn't get any better look at all the things that he had in the garage than you had that first day when your husband brought that stuff from the bus station and it was put in the corner of the garage? mrs. murret. no; i didn't. i was busy on the inside of the house when he took all that stuff over to the apartment, because we were all anxious to see--not all, but marilyn and myself, wanted to see the apartment, so inasmuch as we had to bring the things up there, he loaded the car. mr. jenner. your car? mrs. murret. yes; our car. mr. murret drove the car up there. mr. jenner. did you see them put the things in the car? mrs. murret. no; but they did put everything in the car. mr. jenner. did you see them do that? mrs. murret. no; but mr. murret helped. i knew he was doing that. he had to do that. i didn't do it. i just wanted to go over there that first day and see the apartment, so i was trying to finish up inside, and i just noticed that he was loading the car, and that's something else, the reason why mr. murret is considered just such a gentleman. no woman in his presence ever picks up a package or anything like that. mr. jenner. a woman never picks up a package in the presence of your husband? mrs. murret. that's right, he always does it. so anyway, we brought lee up to the apartment, and he was so happy about the place. he thought it was a most beautiful place, and we thought it was nice too, but after they got everything out of the car, we just left. mr. jenner. did you see them taking things out of the car and bringing them into the apartment? mrs. murret. yes; but we didn't help them. mr. jenner. was your husband helping to unload the car? mrs. murret. oh, yes; he was taking the things out himself. mr. jenner. you saw him doing that? mrs. murret. oh, yes; they had a lot of locker space in that apartment, and lee was putting everything in this one big locker, i think. mr. jenner. did your husband have any luggage? mrs. murret. luggage? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. murret. yes; i think he had some suitcases. mr. jenner. he had some suitcases? mrs. murret. yes; they looked like marina's suitcase, for one, because he didn't come into my house with any suitcase. like i said, he just had that little bag with him. in fact, he only had maybe two pairs of socks and two t-shirts, and two pairs of pants, and nothing else. mr. jenner. but you did see a suitcase or more than one suitcase in the garage; is that right? mrs. murret. i think i did. i think he did have a suitcase in the garage, and maybe two; yes, sir. i seem to remember those. mr. jenner. do you have a ready recollection of that? mrs. murret. yes; i do. i think, if i remember right, that i saw two suitcases there, and that they were very nice suitcases. mr. jenner. of ordinary size, would you say? mrs. murret. i think they were of ordinary size; yes, sir. mr. jenner. regular suitcases with the handle in the center? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. would you say they were straight sided and oblong rather than square? mrs. murret. yes; just ordinary regular clothing suitcases. mr. jenner. about inches long? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. but you didn't see any long package? mrs. murret. no; i didn't. mr. jenner. by long, i mean something in the neighborhood of inches long, or something like that. mrs. murret. no; i didn't see anything like that. the only reason i noticed these suitcases was because my washing machine was in the garage, and i had to go out there to wash, to do my washing, and those suitcases were standing up, sitting right next to one another, and there were boxes, a bunch of stuff. mr. jenner. there were two suitcases, as far as you know? mrs. murret. as far as i know; yes. mr. jenner. could there have been three? mrs. murret. there could have been. there could have been four; i don't know. mr. jenner. but your immediate recollection is that there were two? mrs. murret. yes; that's right. there were at least two suitcases. mr. jenner. but you didn't notice any wrapped package, any brown butcher paper, or regular delicatessen store paper? mrs. murret. no; i didn't see anything like that. like i said, though, when they put his things in the car, i was inside the house. mr. jenner. did your boy do any hunting? mrs. murret. my boys? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. murret. well, the boy that's in the seminary, he did a little duck-hunting occasionally, but that's about all. mr. jenner. did your boys ever have shotguns or rifles around your house? mrs. murret. oh, they had a small rifle in my locker. mr. jenner. do you know what that rifle looked like? mrs. murret. yes; just an ordinary rifle. it wasn't an expensive rifle. it could have been just a plain shotgun, i guess. in fact, i think, if i can remember back, i think gene, when he was duck hunting once, almost shot his hand off. mr. jenner. but you don't remember seeing any package, any oblong package, out in the garage among those things that lee had brought in there? mrs. murret. no; i didn't. mr. jenner. would you have any conception of what a rifle would look like when it is disassembled, what the barrel separated from the stock looked like, and so forth? mrs. murret. no; i'm afraid i don't know anything about rifles. mr. jenner. all right. now, we are on the th of september, and marina and mrs. paine have arrived at your home. now, will you tell me about that? mrs. murret. well, they arrived that afternoon. we brought lee to the apartment that morning, and lee stayed at the apartment and came back later during the day, and i said to lee, "well, suppose we go out and buy some eggs and have your refrigerator stocked," and he had said "oh, don't worry about that; i will get all of that. i will have all of that in." in other words, you couldn't help him, so then he came over to the house, and i planned on having a lunch for marina and mrs. paine, and they came on in with the baby, so there was mrs. paine with her two children, mr. murret, and i guess marilyn was in the back getting ready to go out. mr. jenner. marilyn is your daughter? mrs. murret. marilyn is my daughter; yes. mr. jenner. she is a young lady who was here this morning with you? mrs. murret. yes, she was getting ready to go out. she had an appointment with someone, so they came in and when i saw the baby, i forgot who else was there. i said, "well, she's darling," you know, and the baby began to cry and it cried and cried, and marina took it to the kitchen and took care of her, and i think john was there. mr. jenner. you mean your son john? mrs. murret. yes; i think he was there. mr. jenner. had lee arrived in the meantime? mrs. murret. lee had arrived; oh, yes, he was there. so finally lee said, "well, let's go over to the apartment," and so they all got ready to leave, and mr. murret said he would lead the way because they didn't know the way. he said, "i will lead the way to this place," so that's the way they went over there. mr. murret, my husband, took lee with him, i think that's right, and mrs. paine drove the others over in her car. mr. jenner. from the time that mrs. paine drove off from your home, did you see mrs. paine any more? mrs. murret. no, sir; i never saw mrs. paine any more. mr. jenner. how soon after that did you see lee and marina and the baby? mrs. murret. well, you see, i don't drive myself, and i wanted them to come over, but they didn't have a car and they didn't want my husband to go and get them, so it was weeks before i saw them again. but one saturday morning about weeks after they moved over there, lee came over with marina and the baby, which is a very long way they had to come by streetcar and bus, and it must have taken them a long time, because they were living up on magazine street, and that's a pretty long way out to my house. from canal street up to the block of magazine street, that's blocks, and then from my house to canal it must be blocks. mr. jenner. you mean it was blocks distance from your house to their house? mrs. murret. that's right. mr. jenner. all right, go ahead. mrs. murret. well, they made this trip by streetcar and bus, and we didn't even know they were coming, and they had the baby stroller and everything that belonged to the baby with them. mr. jenner. this is lee and marina, now? mrs. murret. yes, sir. mr. jenner. that was weeks later that they came out to your house? mrs. murret. yes; and the baby. i was trying to make friends with the baby and the baby was crying. it looked like the poor child never saw anyone before in her life. mr. jenner. you had this feeling, did you? mrs. murret. yes, sir. mr. jenner. you have reared some fine children, and you have grandchildren? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. i take it you have a knack with babies and children? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. and you seemed to have trouble with lee's baby, with this baby? mrs. murret. yes; naturally she had never seen me before, and she didn't speak the english language. marina made her understand things in russian, and so i took the baby outside with me to make friends with the baby and she kept crying, and marina kept telling her to look at me, and after a while she made friends, you know, and so then lee decided that they would go out. i had a baby bed in the house which i have for all my children, and my daughter still uses the baby bed, so anyway, marina and lee wanted to go to the lakeside which isn't too far from my home. mr. jenner. what is the lakeside? mrs. murret. pontchartrain lake. i guess that would be about blocks from where i live. mr. jenner. about a mile-and-a-half? mrs. murret. about that. they decided to go crabbing, and so they got a net and some crab bait, and the baby meantime went to sleep, so lee left the baby with me in the crib, and they went out to the lake. mr. jenner. how did they get out there? mrs. murret. marilyn drove them. mr. jenner. your daughter marilyn? mrs. murret. yes; she drove them out to the lake. mr. jenner. did lee know how to drive a car? mrs. murret. i don't think he did. i never saw him drive a car. mr. jenner. you have never seen lee behind the wheel of a car, operating an automobile? mrs. murret. never. mr. jenner. did you ever hear that he did know how to drive an automobile, though? mrs. murret. no; i don't think he did, because when they went to new york, when he went with his mother, she drove, she always drove. i never knew him to drive. mr. jenner. so anyway, marilyn took them out to pontchartrain beach, and they went crabbing; is that right? mrs. murret. that's right; and they didn't get any crabs, so on the way back marina was fussing at lee in russian, and marilyn must have said, "well, what is she saying?" you know, so lee said, "oh, she's just like a woman; she's no different. they are no different whether they come from russia or france or some place in louisiana. they are all alike. they don't appreciate what you do for them." marina was telling him that it was so stupid for them to be taking these crab nets, spending $ , i guess it was, for everything, when he could have gone to the french market and bought a dozen crabs for $ . or $ . . she didn't see any sense in spending money and going out and not catching any crabs when you could go and buy them at the french market. she missed the point where the boy liked to do that for pleasure. she thought it was a bum idea. she told lee it would be better to just go and buy some crabs and not go through all that trouble, but anyway they came back home, and they stayed until about o'clock. they ate supper, and so forth, and the baby got a little friendlier. they played ball with the baby, and she came around a little bit, and i think mr. murret drove them home, and that was it. when they left, we told them that at anytime when they wanted to come over again to let us know, and mr. murret would be glad to come and get them, but lee said, "no, we don't mind coming on the bus," but then i don't think they came around for a while after that. in the meantime he must have lost his job at the reily coffee co. mr. jenner. how did you learn that? mrs. murret. well, he told me. mr. jenner. how did he come to tell you that? mrs. murret. he called me and again he said they just didn't need another person on the job, that they had too many. that seemed to be the only excuse he gave for losing a job. mr. jenner. that was what he told you? mrs. murret. why he had lost his position? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. murret. yes. that's why he said he lost it in texas. he asked me if he could use my telephone number, because he would be out looking for a job, and if anybody would call, then he could call every afternoon to find out if anyone called, and i could give him the message, so he had his name in at the louisiana employment service. mr. jenner. the louisiana employment service? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. is that state? mrs. murret. state employment, yes. mr. jenner. all right; go ahead. mrs. murret. during that time he was getting state employment from texas, from that job, when he first got here, because he got one of those checks when he was at my house, and then he was collecting state employment while he was off of this job here, when he got out of work, so he was probably collecting both checks at the same time. i don't think he ever found a job even though he supposedly was trying, after that one, i mean. he said he was looking for a darkroom. mr. jenner. a what? mrs. murret. a photographer's job, or something like that, so he went down to a place in metairie, but he had to drive a truck for that job, and he told me he couldn't take the job because he didn't know how to drive. mr. jenner. he did tell you that? mrs. murret. yes, sir. mr. jenner. when was that? mrs. murret. that was when he was out looking for a job. mr. jenner. he told you he couldn't drive then? mrs. murret. yes; he said he couldn't take that job because he would have to drive a truck. mr. jenner. that would have been in the summer of now; is that right? mrs. murret. oh, yes; while he was here. i don't think he ever found any other job after that here. mr. jenner. do you know how long he stayed on this job at the coffee plant? mrs. murret. no; i don't. there's something else. before he got this job at the coffee plant, i think he had mr. murret loan him $ , or maybe $ , to pay part of his house rent, but after he got that job at the coffee plant, he paid that back to mr. murret. i told him, "if you need anything, lee, ask for it," because sometimes i felt guilty. i thought maybe when people like that need something, we should go ahead and get it for them, but then i told myself, "well, no, since he is the type of person who is so independent," so i just stood back and waited to see if he could bring himself to come to me for something, because it was apparent that they needed a lot of things, him and marina, but he never did, except for that loan he made from my husband to pay part of the house rent and the time he asked if we could put him up for a week while he looked for a job, but otherwise it seemed like he didn't want anybody to do anything for him. i did ask him several times if there was anything we could do for them, or get for them, and he would said, "no; we have everything," and then one time i offered him a spread, and he said, "no; we have everything," and the funny thing was that when they came that saturday, he said to me, he said, "marina says we will take that spread now; we don't have a spread," so marina must have bawled him out for not taking the spread in the first place. i mean, she must have thought he ought to have accepted it. so they went home with the spread after all. mr. jenner. this was when they first came? mrs. murret. yes. so then he would call in to find out if anybody had called from the employment agency. he had his names in at a private agency, besides the state employment, and he did get several calls and i gave him the message. one time i remember the man left his name, but i wouldn't remember that now. mr. jenner. might your husband remember that? mrs. murret. no. my husband was never around when all this was going on. my husband couldn't tell you anything, so then i went away. i went to texas for weeks. i left on july and i returned on july . mr. jenner. to visit your son? mrs. murret. no; my daughter, in beaumont--joyce. that was on july . mr. jenner. had lee lost his job by that time? mrs. murret. he must have. i didn't know it, but he must have in between that time. mr. jenner. while you were away, he lost his job? mrs. murret. it could have been in between that time; yes. mr. jenner. did he say anything to you about losing his job, that you recall? mrs. murret. no; it was a long time after that that he said anything to me about that. mr. jenner. he didn't say anything to you for quite a while? mrs. murret. no; he didn't say anything to me about losing his job for a long time, so then joyce came back. she had two adopted children. mr. jenner. joyce is your daughter, who lived in beaumont? mrs. murret. yes. you see, joyce can't have any children, so she adopted two children. one is and one is , but she got them when they were a month old, and they really are adorable. now, joyce, hadn't seen lee before, you see, or anything, and so then lee and marina came over one day while joyce was at the house with the children. they had come at about o'clock that morning, and stayed till or o'clock that night. i was exhausted trying to entertain marina, you know, and not knowing how to speak russian, or make any signs that she would understand, and so forth, but she liked the dinner, and she wanted to know how to cook some of the things that i had, and lee wrote the recipes down on paper for her, and i asked them how she could tell to pick out cans when she went to the store if she couldn't read english, and lee said she could tell by the pictures on the cans what she wants, but i don't think lee liked too much variety in food, just certain things. mr. jenner. did you say anything to her at any time, or to lee, about the fact that she wasn't speaking more english than she evidenced? mrs. murret. yes; i asked lee about that. i said, "lee, how does marina like america?" and he said to me, "well, you can ask marina yourself," so i said to marina, "how do you like america?" and she said, "oh, i like america!" she said, "i like it; i like it!" now, we always did think it strange that lee didn't seem to care whether marina learned to speak english or not. he was always talking to her in russian, and we didn't know what was going on, you see. i asked him, "why don't you teach marina more english?" but he didn't pick it up, so then--in august, i think it was, i was operated on for my ear, and during that time joyce was home. they had been at the house before the operation. they knew i was going to be operated on, and he came up there to see me, which i thought was very nice. mr. jenner. you mean lee? mrs. murret. yes. i was at that time at the eye, ear, nose, and throat hospital, and he said, "how are you feeling?" and i said, "all right." he stayed just a couple of minutes really, and he seemed to be nervous--like, you know--and i thanked him for coming, and then he went off, so that night joyce came back to the hospital again. that was a thursday, i think, and i got out on a saturday--that following saturday, so mr. murret was not there for my operation. he wanted to stay, but he was supposed to go to a retreat at manresa, and he missed last year, because he couldn't get off from work, so i said, "well, don't miss it this year, because this isn't serious, and there are no after effects." i said, "go on to the retreat, and it will be all right," so he went, and john, my son, was in town, and he came up, and of course joyce couldn't do too much, because she had two children of her own to take care of, but anyway i had the operation, and joyce was to come up and get me on saturday at about o'clock, so then lee called, and this was before joyce left home to come up to the hospital, and he told joyce that he was over at the parish jail, or something, the one on rampart over there, and he told her he wanted her to bring some money up and get him out, and she said, "mother, i don't want to." she said she had been there twice with the money in her hand, and each time she came back out again. she told me, "i don't know what to do." i said, "well, joyce, i don't know what he's in there for; do you know?" and she told me that she had talked to this officer up there, and she asked him, "what's that kid in there for, before i bail him out?" she was going to give the money to this officer to get lee out, but the man told her not to be foolish and give her money up like that, because she might not get it back. she said he told her, "don't give up your cash because you may never get it back." he said, "have somebody parole him." so joyce didn't know what to do. she had been out of new orleans a long time, so she didn't know what to do. this officer showed her the sign that they said lee was carrying, and on it it had, "viva el castro," so when joyce saw that, she said, "oh, my god," she said, "i am not about to get him out of here if he's like that," so she didn't know what to do, but she didn't give up her money. she said, "here he was supposed to be out looking for a job, and he was doing things like that, walking up and down canal street all day long with signs and everything." this officer told her that he had told lee, "if you want to carry these 'fair play for cuba' signs around, you are going to have to rent yourself a hall, and have your meetings in the hall," and he said, "but you can't carry signs like that in the business district." the officer said that what he was doing wasn't so bad, but joyce thought it was terrible, you see, so joyce came on out to the hospital. she didn't get him out of jail. she didn't give up her money. so when we got back home, it wasn't long until he called on the phone again, and the first thing he did was get kind of rude with joyce. he wanted to know how come she hadn't gotten him out yet, and didn't she have the money, and she said, "no, i don't have any money." she said that she had just gotten her mother out of the hospital and used up the money, and she told him, "i don't have any money to get you out of there." also, joyce had found out that he had been in there since friday. you see, joyce was under the impression that he had just gotten in jail, so joyce asked him, "how long have you been in here?" and he said, "i don't know how long i have been in here," and joyce said, "i know; you have been in here all night," and he said, "well, just come and get me out," and joyce said, "well, i don't know; i'll have to think this thing over," and then she said, "i don't have any money," and then he said, "well, i'll tell you what you do." he said, "i want you to go out to the apartment and see marina, because marina has $ . and you tell marina to get that money and come and get me out," and joyce said, "well, i have to get mother into bed, and i have no one to keep my two children while i run up there," and he said, "well, ask one of the neighbors to mind the children," so in the meantime joyce told me what he had said, and i told her, "well, i don't know. i don't like to exactly ask for favors from the neighbors like that," so she said she didn't know what to do, so we talked about it awhile, and then we decided to call this man that we knew, and we called him, and he told us what had happened, that lee had had a fight with some cubans, and everything, and we were still wondering what to do about lee being in jail and everything when, a little while after that, he called back and said that everything was all right, that lee was out. now, we didn't see lee though. i guess he went on home. then mr. murret came back from manresa on sunday evening, or sunday night i believe it was, and when we told him about it, he was horrified, you know. he went right out to their apartment to talk to lee, and he asked lee in a fatherly way, what was he doing, you know, who he was connected with, and so forth, and whether he was with any commie group, and lee said no, he wasn't, and mr. murret told him, he said, "you be sure you show up at that courthouse for the trial," and lee said, "don't worry, i'll show up," and he told lee, he said, "you ought to get out and find yourself a job." "you have a wife and child and one coming," and so forth, and then we didn't see lee any more until labor day, i believe it was. lee called up that morning, and he said he and marina wanted to come over that day and spend the day, and i said, not right away, but suppose they come over around or o'clock in the afternoon, because i think i was busy that morning, or something, so they did. they came on the bus, and mr. murret happened to be passing by, and he picked them up and brought them to the house, and i asked them if they had had dinner, and they said yes, but i don't think they had. i told them i would go up to the store and get some rolls, and we could have some coffee and rolls, so i did, and i made coffee, and we sat down and ate the rolls, and to tell you the truth, i don't think they had eaten anything, because they ate up all the rolls. i made hamburgers too that night, and they each ate two hamburgers. john was there too. after they finished eating, it was time to take them home, and john brought them home. mr. jenner. in his car? mrs. murret. yes. i might say too that mr. murret talked to lee quite a bit about him not trying to teach marina how to speak the english language. he said, "lee, we love marina very much, but we feel very bad that we can't converse with marina, because you speak to her all the time in russian, and we don't know what is going on and she doesn't know what is going on with us. don't you think you should teach her the english language?" and lee said, "no." then he said, "i'll tell you right now, i will never teach it to her," and then he said, "i don't care if she wants to learn, but she is not going to learn from me." he said, "i am not going to teach her, because i don't want to lose my russian," but he said he didn't object to her learning the english language, but at the same time he kept on talking in russian to her. i asked him, "why do you want to keep up your russian, lee; do you intend to go back to russia?" but something happened right then--somebody did something or other, and he never did answer that question, so that was all of that. so we brought them home. john brought them home in his car, but before he took them home, he drove them out and showed them the church that he was going to be married in, and he also took them up on palmer avenue and showed them the home where he was going to have the reception with his girl friend, at her house. it's a large home on palmer avenue, so he took them and showed them all of that, and then he took them home, and we didn't see them any more. mr. jenner. is that the last time you saw either one of them? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. did you have any contact with them by letter, telephone, postcard, or otherwise? mrs. murret. no, nothing. then the next day or the day following that, two men came to the house from the fbi. mr. jenner. that was labor day, was it? mrs. murret. no. labor day was the last day i saw them. this was a few days after labor day, i think. mr. jenner. after labor day? mrs. murret. yes. they came to the house and knocked at the door, and i went to the door, and they didn't tell me who they were at first, but they approached me, and asked me, "does a young couple live here?" and i said, "no; no young couple lives here, nor did any young couple ever live here," and then they asked me, "do you know lee oswald?" and i said, "yes, i do; he's my nephew," and he said, "well, do you know where he lives?" and i said, "well, yes, he lives in the block of magazine street. i don't know the number, but it's in the block," and then they told me who they were. mr. jenner. that's when they told you they were fbi agents? mrs. murret. yes. then the next day they came back, and they told me that a lady, a neighbor, or whoever they heard it from, said that a lady with a station wagon was there. i said, "well, probably that's the same lady who brought marina here from texas, and took them back to texas." mr. jenner. this was the th of september, is that right? mrs. murret. yes, i think so, and that's the last i knew of them. i never heard anything else about them, but now, i skipped over something--in between that time he called one time, and he said mrs. paine was going up to see her relatives, i think, and that she was going to pass through new orleans and visit with them, but he didn't say that they were leaving with her and going back to texas, or anything like that. he just said mrs. paine was going to come through here and visit with them. he also said that mrs. paine knew a tulane professor. mr. jenner. a tulane professor? mrs. murret. yes, sir; a tulane professor. he could have been a language professor, i imagine, because i remember him saying that he had a daughter that was attending the university in moscow, and they either went to his home or they came over to lee's house. that i didn't get straight, and he showed slides, and so forth, on russia, the way i understand it. mr. jenner. who showed the slides? mrs. murret. the professor, but i think mrs. paine was the one who knew the professor and all that. mr. jenner. you say his daughter is in school in moscow? mrs. murret. he is supposed to have a daughter in the university over there, yes, sir; or he did have. that was my understanding. mr. jenner. in moscow? mrs. murret. i think he said moscow, but that's the last i heard from lee oswald and marina. mr. jenner. all right. now, tell me one thing you left out? mrs. murret. what's that? mr. jenner. the trip over to mobile. mrs. murret. oh. well, that came in--i don't remember the date. mr. jenner. was it sometime in july or august of , somewhere around there? mrs. murret. well, lee wasn't working about that time, and my son gene was over in mobile, and he hadn't seen lee for a long time, and he had asked if we could bring lee over so he could see him. gene had graduated from loyola and had went into the service. he was in there for about years, and when they were activated, they went into germany and everything, and when he came back he entered law school and went to law school. mr. jenner. at loyola? mrs. murret. yes, for years, and then he decided to become a jesuit. mr. jenner. a jesuit priest? mrs. murret. yes. so he was over at mobile by then, and naturally when i wrote to him i told him about lee, and he said he would like very much to see lee, and that he would like for lee to come up there and bring marina up and visit him, so we arranged to take marina and lee up to mobile. we left on a saturday around noon, and i believe joyce was with us, and also her two children. mr. jenner. how long were you gone on that trip? mrs. murret. well, we came back that sunday afternoon, or, we left there about o'clock, i think it was. mr. jenner. had there been any discussion in advance about lee giving a lecture or anything to the boys there at that school? mrs. murret. not that i know of. mr. jenner. what's the name of that school, mrs. murret? mrs. murret. what school is that? mr. jenner. at mobile? mrs. murret. where gene was? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. murret. the jesuit house of study. mr. jenner. the jesuit house of study at mobile, ala.? mrs. murret. yes, mobile. so gene asked us to bring lee and marina over, and, you see, they allow a speaker over there at that school so many times a year, and he said maybe lee could speak on his experiences in russia. mr. jenner. then there was a discussion in advance of lee's going over there about his speaking, is that right? mrs. murret. only that he might speak about his experiences in russia is all. there wasn't anything else arranged that i know of, i don't think. mr. jenner. was this in a conversation between you and your son? mrs. murret. no, by letter that was. mr. jenner. by letter? mrs. murret. yes. we never would get to see gene, you see, unless we would go over there. he wasn't supposed to call us on the phone or anything like that. but they do allow you to visit every so often. mr. jenner. is he allowed to call you by telephone if it's important and he gets permission? mrs. murret. no, he's not supposed to use the phone to call home. mr. jenner. but he may write you? mrs. murret. yes, and then we visit so many times a year--i mean, we go up there, but that's all. now, we call him, like on holidays and things like that. we are allowed to do that. mr. jenner. but he can't call you? mrs. murret. no, he can't call us. mr. jenner. why is that? mrs. murret. well, they just don't like it. mr. jenner. do they like you to call up there? in other words, do they mind if you call him? mrs. murret. i don't think they like it, but, like i said, on holidays or something we can do it. mr. jenner. was that one of the rules of the school authorities over there? mrs. murret. i guess so, because otherwise gene would call us. mr. jenner. all right. now, tell me about your trip over there. just what happened? mrs. murret. well, when i saw lee coming out of the house to get in the car, it was a hot day, and he had this flannel shirt on, and i said, "oh, lee, let me give you another shirt that won't be so uncomfortable," but he wouldn't accept another shirt. he kept the flannel shirt on, and that's the way he went over there. he didn't want me to get him another shirt. he just wouldn't accept favors from anybody. he was so independent. well, anyway, we got over there, and that night we were going to meet. mr. jenner. that's you and your husband? mrs. murret. and joyce. mr. jenner. joyce, your daughter? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. and her two children? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. and lee and marina, and their child june? mrs. murret. yes, and ron and jill. mr. jenner. and ron and jill? mrs. murret. yes, they are joyce's children, and mr. murret paid all the expenses, including the motel rooms and the meals, and so forth. now, when lee and marina came out from freshening up, they looked real nice. i was really surprised, especially at marina. she had got herself all dressed up, and she looked like a different person, and he was very attentive too to marina. mr. jenner. always? mrs. murret. always. now, what he did at home--how he acted around her there, i don't know, but when he was in my presence he was very attentive to her and very well mannered. he would, i mean, open the car door for her, and so forth--very attentive. he would pull the chair out for her and things like that. he was very well mannered. i have to say that for him. mr. jenner. what was her attitude toward him? mrs. murret. well, she seemed the same way. they seemed to get along very nicely together, i thought, when they were here in new orleans. they would take a ride out the french market and buy some crabs and some shrimp and come home and boil and cook them. they got a big bang out of doing things like that. now, marina was pregnant about that time, and we asked them if we could do anything for her in the way of getting some sort of treatment before the birth of the baby, but marina didn't want any treatment. she said she didn't need any, and it seemed like lee must have had her at charity hospital, i think at least one time, because he said they told him that when she was ready to have the child, to just come right on in. mr. jenner. was there any discussion of a rifle at any time in your presence? mrs. murret. no. mr. jenner. no discussion about anything like that by anybody? mrs. murret. no. mr. jenner. did you ever see a rifle around in the garage where this stuff was stored? mrs. murret. no; i never did. mr. jenner. did you ever see a package out there that looked like it might contain a rifle? mrs. murret. no; i never did see one around there. mr. jenner. you never saw anything that looked like a rifle or shotgun at all among his belongings that he had put in the garage in the corner? mrs. murret. no; but i didn't really pay too much attention to all that stuff. the only thing i remember him ever taking out of there was these boots and this hat. mr. jenner. did you attend this lecture that lee gave over in mobile? mrs. murret. oh, no; women couldn't attend. mr. jenner. was that on a saturday night? mrs. murret. it was on a saturday night; yes, sir, because we came back the next afternoon. mr. jenner. it was just for the boys from the house of study, is that your understanding? mrs. murret. that's right. no women were allowed, and during that time they had one of the boys there that spoke russian, and he never got a chance to talk with the other boys in russian, of course, so gene told him that marina was outside that night, so he came out, and he spoke with marina in russian, and so he and marina had a very nice conversation about different things, and we walked up to the chapel, and he showed marina the chapel, and so forth, and i don't know what he was saying to her, because they were both talking in russian. so i don't know what all they were talking about. so then after they talked for a while, he left. now, after the talk lee gave at the meeting, i asked gene, "well, how was it?" and he said, "well, it was all right." previous to that time, i had said to lee--i knew that lee was going to talk about being in russia, so i said to lee, "maybe you had better map out some thoughts for your talk, just what you might be going to say, so you won't be too nervous," and he said, "oh, don't worry about me; i give talks all the time." mr. jenner. he said he gave talks all the time? mrs. murret. that's what he said. he said, "i'm used to that." he said, "i give talks all the time." i asked marina later on one day if she would like to attend mass the next morning with me, and she said yes, she would, and she asked lee about it, so they were talking it over in russian, so i don't know what they were saying. mr. jenner. did she go with you to mass the next morning? mrs. murret. yes; she did. mr. jenner. did she say she liked it, or what did she say? mrs. murret. yes; she said, "i like your church very much." mr. jenner. marina said that? mrs. murret. yes; i said, "marina, i'm sorry you don't live near me; we could go to church together," and i said to her, "i wish you would become a catholic." mr. jenner. marina could converse to some extent in english, could she not? she could communicate with you to some extent, couldn't she? mrs. murret. yes; i could make her understand most things, you know, about what i was talking about. now, another thing, lee didn't want the baby to be baptized. mr. jenner. who didn't? mrs. murret. lee. he told me that the baby was baptized, but in the orthodox religion, and he wanted the baby to be baptized in the lutheran religion. marina wanted the baby to be baptized in the orthodox church, and she went ahead and did it, and i think that's something he probably resented--not the baptism itself but the church. mr. jenner. had this occurred before they came to new orleans? had the baby been baptized before that? mrs. murret. yes; i think it was in dallas or fort worth. i don't know which. mr. jenner. did any other incident arise that you can think of between marina and lee that might help the commission in its investigation? mrs. murret. well, his attitude was pretty bad about certain things, like the time he asked her to pass him the catsup. he just said, "give me that" and she said, "don't ask it in that manner," and he said, "well, i'm the commander around here," but of course i don't think he really meant that the way it sounded. mr. jenner. you think that was just a passing remark, just a figure of speech? mrs. murret. yes; with no meaning. in fact, i didn't think anything about it. mr. jenner. do you think that lee was arrogant? mrs. murret. no; i didn't think that. i think with a lot of people, it depends on whether they like you or they don't like you, i mean, in the way they act toward you, and with lee, most people would dislike him because of the fact that he was not a mixer and he did seem to be arrogant, i guess you would call it, but he wasn't. i think it all depends on whether you like a person like that. me, i don't like a man who yap, yap, yaps all the time. lee was a person who didn't feel that he ought to say anything unless it was important. some people thought he had an arrogance about him, i suppose, from the way he carried himself, the way he walked, but he just walked very straight all the time. that was his natural walk. some people passed remarks about lee's mouth, the way it looked, but that's the way his mouth was, and he couldn't help that, and after you knew him for a while, you didn't pay any attention to that. mr. jenner. what was there about his mouth that you noticed particularly? mrs. murret. well, it sort of set back a little bit--a little different from most people, but it really wasn't that bad. it just looked like he was holding his mouth that way, but he really wasn't. that just the way it was, but a lot of people didn't like him for it. like that time he ran into this place on magazine and asked the man there to let him look at television, and the man right away refused to let him, refused to let him turn on the television. he said who did he think he was, and things like that, and he thought lee was a little smart aleck or something, i guess, but i took it the other way, that here's a kid that doesn't have a television set in his house, and he doesn't have anything to do, and he's alone, and he has come to me thinking i will be nice enough to turn on the television for him, and so i would do it. but i guess all people don't think alike about things like that. a lot of people take that sort of thing the wrong way, i think. mr. jenner. now, mrs. murret, there are some records from beauregard school indicating--either beauregard or easton, showing that his address was french street. now, that was your old address, before they changed the numbering on your street, is that right? mrs. murret. yes; that's right. mr. jenner. i wonder if you would tell me how that came about, mrs. murret? mrs. murret. well, it came about--they only had one house in the block, from canal boulevard---- mr. jenner. no; i don't mean that. i mean, how did it come about that lee gave your home address as his address? mrs. murret. oh, well, they changed all the numbers in that block. we had been in the block, but they changed it to the block. mr. jenner. i understand that, mrs. murret, but tell me, if you will, how it came about that lee registered at either beauregard school or warren easton as living at your address, at french street, which was your address? mrs. murret. well, that was brought about when he first came back from new york with his mother, and they stayed at my house for weeks, and that was when they registered him at beauregard, because she didn't have a place yet, and she gave them my address. in fact, if she hadn't given them my address and given some other address in another district, he would have had to go to another school, and she wanted him to go to beauregard school. it had a good reputation as a good school, and she said she would like to have him enrolled there. mr. jenner. tell me, how did lee act when he came in from new york with his mother and lived at your home for those weeks? what was his conduct generally, as you recall it? mrs. murret. well, he didn't act any different than any other child, i don't think. he was in school all day long, and he came home in the afternoon, and just sort of hung around inside, and he would eat supper and go to bed, and the same thing the next day. he didn't talk much. he never really did talk unless you said something to him. mr. jenner. the same old pattern, would you say? mrs. murret. yes; but there are a lot of people that don't like to talk. it's just that some people are inclined to talk a lot, and others just aren't. you run across that every day. mr. jenner. i agree with you on that. do you recall an occasion or a situation in which lee was a member of, or at least attended some activity of the civil air patrol? mrs. murret. i don't know anything about that other than my sister marguerite told me that he was a friend of this boy at beauregard, and that through him he had joined the civil air patrol, and he had to have a uniform and so forth, but that's about all i know about it. they were living on exchange alley, or exchange--whatever that is, at the time. mr. jenner. exchange place? mrs. murret. yes; i think that's it, exchange place. mr. jenner. do you remember your son john giving lee a white shirt and tie on one occasion? mrs. murret. yes; lee was getting ready to go on this job, and john was in the back getting dressed to go to work, i think, and he didn't think lee looked presentable. john is such a big boy, and he said it in such a nice way--he can do it, you know, but he asked lee, he said, "lee, here's a shirt; take it; it doesn't fit me. you put it on, and here's a nice tie to go with it." he said "come on, kid, you want to look good when you go for that job, you know," and so he gave the white shirt and the tie to lee to go after the job, and lee took them, and when his picture was taken for that "fair play for cuba" business, he had that same shirt and tie on. mr. jenner. he had the same shirt and tie on that your son john had given him when he had his picture taken on that occasion? mrs. murret. yes; the same white shirt and the tie. they belonged to john, and he had given them to lee to go after a job. now, john felt sorry for lee in a way, and he was trying to help him. john was good that way around anybody who he felt sorry for, like one time he said, "come on, lee, let's go for a ride, and i'll let you drive the car," and i think he sat next to lee and let lee steer the car, or something, but i don't know anything about that. i don't think lee ever did know how to drive a car. maybe he did, but as far as i know, he didn't know how to drive. mr. jenner. i believe you said during the course of this discussion that you thought lee was left handed. what led you to say that? mrs. murret. well, as a child, when he was a small child, i knew he ate with his left hand, and i always thought that he did things with his left hand. now, whether he used both hands or not, i don't know, but he did use his left hand as a child. i remember that. mr. jenner. in fact, children are often ambidextrous, aren't they? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. they eat with either hand, don't they? mrs. murret. yes; they do. i have known of cases where children have started out eating with their left hands, and they switch over as they grow older to their right hands, but then there are some children who never use their right hand, i don't think. mr. jenner. this was an impression you had of him as a very small boy though, is that right? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. did you ever see lee write left handed? mrs. murret. when? mr. jenner. after he reached, say, high school age? mrs. murret. no; i didn't. mr. jenner. you never noticed it one way or the other? mrs. murret. no; i didn't. mr. jenner. when he was living with you during those weeks, when they came back from new york, did you ever see him use his left hand? mrs. murret. i never noticed really. mr. jenner. your boys are all right handed, is that right? mrs. murret. oh, yes. mr. jenner. i remember you told me earlier today that lee wanted to go out and play ball, and perhaps get on some team, is that right? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. and you gave him, you said, a glove that belonged to one of your boys, is that right? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. well, wasn't that glove for a right-handed player, if it belonged to one of your boys, and they were all right handed? mrs. murret. yes; that's right. mr. jenner. it was one of your boy's gloves, wasn't it? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. did you listen to the debate over the radio between lee and the cuban boy? mrs. murret. well, he called. mr. jenner. who, lee? mrs. murret. yes; lee called and said he was going to talk on the radio, so--we were getting supper ready, because it was supposed to come on about then, but we forgot about it until after it started, but then we turned it on and did hear some of it. mr. jenner. you heard some of it? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. was there any discussion at any time about lee's political views? mrs. murret. not in my home. mr. jenner. and not with you? mrs. murret. no; and i don't think with any other member of my family. mrs. jenner. did you ever observe lee, as far as his manual dexterity was concerned, his coordination? mrs. murret. no; i never paid too much attention to that. i know he wasn't prepared to do anything in life. mr. jenner. was your son john attempting to teach him to drive an automobile? did your son talk to you about that? mrs. murret. no; he didn't say anything about that. i don't know what john had in mind. anyway, they went riding, but they weren't gone too long, and then they came back. mr. jenner. would it have been as long as a couple of hours? mrs. murret. no; not a couple of hours; just a spin around. mr. jenner. did john report that lee could or could not drive? did he say anything either way as to that? mrs. murret. you mean on that day? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. murret. well, we always felt that lee didn't know how to drive. mr. jenner. as far as you know, he couldn't drive? mrs. murret. no. mr. jenner. let's see if i have your family right now, if you will bear with me. you have a daughter, mrs. emile, and her given name is joyce, and her husband's name is o'brien, and they live at fairway, beaumont, tex., is that right? mrs. murret. right. mr. jenner. you have a son, dr. charles w. murret, a dentist, who has an office at west bernard, chalmette, la.; you have a son gene, and that's spelled e-u-g-e-n-e, who is studying for the priesthood, and who lives at loyola avenue, mobile, ala., is that right? mrs. murret. right. mr. jenner. now, he has a designation of s.j. what is that? mrs. murret. society of jesus. mr. jenner. and he's the boy who attended law school, is that right? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. and a fine student? mrs. murret. he certainly was. mr. jenner. and he is unmarried? mrs. murret. well, you can't be married and be a jesuit. mr. jenner. and your son john lives at louis xiv, is that right? mrs. murret. right. mr. jenner. in new orleans? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. and then your daughter marilyn, she lives with you, is that right? mrs. murret. right. mr. jenner. she's unmarried? mrs. murret. unmarried. she says you have to want to get married to get married. mr. jenner. she doesn't want to get married? mrs. murret. that's right. she says that's not for her. now, charles didn't see lee at all. mr. jenner. charles is your dentist son? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. but your daughter marilyn did, and john did, and you have told us about gene and your daughter joyce--they did, is that right? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. and of course your husband? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. were you ever in their apartment on magazine street, mrs. murret? mrs. murret. just that morning when we went there. mr. jenner. that's the morning that they arrived, mrs. paine and marina--arrived from irving, tex.? mrs. murret. right. we took them home that night, and i was there then. mr. jenner. did lee ever speak of president john fitzgerald kennedy or mrs. jacqueline kennedy? mrs. murret. he said one time that he thought mrs. jacqueline kennedy was a very fine person, and that he admired her for going around with her husband, and so forth, but he never spoke about that again, or never said anything about it. in fact, i think he said he liked him. mr. jenner. liked president kennedy? mrs. murret. yes. mr. jenner. what about lee oswald's habits? was he a drinking man, for example? mrs. murret. i never knew of lee to drink or smoke. in fact, when i read about, you know, after the assassination, about finding cigarettes there in that room, i was surprised, because i have never known of lee to smoke. now, marina said he didn't want her to smoke. she said she had learned to smoke in russia when other americans had given her cigarettes, but that lee didn't want her to smoke at all. we see nothing wrong in smoking, except that lee just didn't want her to smoke. i see now where dr. ochsner doesn't want anybody to smoke. my boys don't smoke. mr. jenner. as far as you know, did lee ever live in a rooming house around here? mrs. murret. no. mr. jenner. did he have any communistic literature or russian literature that you know of? mrs. murret. i didn't see any. all he showed me was pictures of marina and the baby when he first came, and some of marina's family, but that's about all. mr. jenner. did you ever hear lee discuss anybody by name, like jack ruby, or rubenstein? mrs. murret. no; i never did. mr. jenner. no one else ever discussed him in your presence? mrs. murret. no. lee only spoke when he was spoken to. mr. jenner. mrs. murret, is there anything that occurs to you at the end of this long day, and i know you are tired, that i haven't brought out, either because i don't know about it or haven't thought of it, anything that you think might be of some assistance to the commission in its work of investigating all the facts and circumstances involving the assassination of president kennedy? mrs. murret. no; i wish i could think of something else, but i don't think i can. i can only say this. lee appeared to be very kind to marina, and i thought it was very nice of him to come up to the hospital to see me; and about my sister marguerite, i could only tell you what she has already told in her life story, i guess, but i will say that i have never found her to tell an untruth. she's a woman with a lot of character and good morals, and i'm sure that what she was doing for her boys, she thought was the best at the time. now, whether it was or not is something else, i guess. mr. jenner. what was your impression of the morality of lee oswald during his lifetime? mrs. murret. his morality, as far as i know, was very good. that's what baffles me, being the type of boy he was, i just couldn't see how he could do anything like that, but it's hard to judge a person that way. mr. jenner. during the years that you knew him, did he ever have fits of temper, that you thought were unusual? mrs. murret. well, he visited with me often, and he did a lot of things that i wondered about at the time, but there were times when i think he was just like any other person. it was just that he was always so quiet, and he was hard to get close to. he just wouldn't talk unless you would talk to him first, and, like i say, he was kind to marina. of course now, i don't know what went on in their home, but he always treated her like a gentleman at our house. mr. jenner. but you had no impression of him as being a violent person? mrs. murret. no; not at all. mr. jenner. all right, mrs. murret. i very much appreciate your help. this has been a long and a hard day, and i know that you are tired. there is just one other thing now, mrs. murret. you have the privilege of reading your deposition and signing it, if you wish, but you also may waive that, in which case the reporter will go ahead and transcribe the deposition, and it will be sent on to washington. if you elect to read the deposition, then we would want to know that now, so that the u.s. attorney can call you and tell you when it is ready to be read and signed by you. do you have any preference, one way or the other? mrs. murret. well, i don't think so. i will just waive it. mr. jenner. you want to waive the reading and signing of the deposition then? mrs. murret. yes, sir. mr. jenner. all right; thank you, mrs. murret. testimony of marilyn dorothea murret the testimony of marilyn dorothea murret was taken on april , , at the old civil courts building, royal and conti streets, new orleans, la., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. marilyn dorothea murret, a witness, having been duly sworn by mr. wesley j. liebeler to testify the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help her god, testified as follows: mr. liebeler. my name is wesley j. liebeler. i am a member of the legal staff of the president's commission investigating the assassination of president kennedy. the commission has authorized staff members to take the testimony of witnesses pursuant to authority granted to it by executive order , dated november , , and joint resolution of congress number . i understand mr. rankin wrote you last week and told you that i would be in touch with you concerning the taking of your testimony, and i understand that he enclosed with his letter a copy of the executive order to which i have just referred, as well as the copy of the joint resolution of congress, and the rules of procedure adopted by the commission governing the taking of testimony of witnesses, is that correct? miss murret. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. you are technically entitled to -days' notice of this hearing under the commission's rules. as i understand it, the secret service contacted you on friday of last week. this may not actually be -days' notice, but you have the right to waive that notice. i presume that you are willing to do so, since you are here and willing to testify? miss murret. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. the general nature of the commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of president kennedy and to the subsequent death of lee harvey oswald. we want to inquire of you as to any knowledge that you may have of the background of lee harvey oswald, and as to any knowledge that you may have of his activities while he was here in new orleans during the spring and summer of . miss murret. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. before we get into the details of your knowledge on those questions, would you please state your full name for the record? miss murret. marilyn dorothea murret. mr. liebeler. where do you live? miss murret. french. mr. liebeler. where were you born, miss murret? miss murret. new orleans. mr. liebeler. have you lived all of your life here in new orleans? miss murret. well, except for the time i traveled and i lived years in st. louis. mr. liebeler. well, would you give us a brief run-down of your educational background? miss murret. well, from elementary on? mr. liebeler. yes. miss murret. i went to john dibert elementary school, and john mcdonogh high school. mr. liebeler. those are both located here in the city of new orleans? miss murret. yes, sir; and loyola university, and l.s.u. at baton rouge, and tulane, and a summer at duke, and university of california, the sorbonne, and university of madrid, and st. louis university---- mr. liebeler. what degrees do you hold from these schools which you have mentioned? miss murret. i just have a b.a., and the others were educational courses--instead of going to one school, i just went to various ones. mr. liebeler. what school gave you your b.a.? miss murret. tulane. mr. liebeler. tulane university? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. i understand that you are a teacher. is that correct? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. are you presently teaching? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. where? miss murret. fortier? mr. liebeler. where is that? miss murret. fortier. mr. liebeler. have you taught at the junior university of new orleans? miss murret. yes; unfortunately. mr. liebeler. when did teach there? miss murret. september through december, but he didn't pay us--he paid the first check, but he is out of business at the moment, and he didn't pay the last two. but he recently paid me for the november check, and he still owes me for december. mr. liebeler. this is the person who is running the junior university of new orleans? miss murret. yes; it is closed down now, but he still has the one across the river. he had two, one on this side, and---- mr. liebeler. two so-called universities? miss murret. yes, sir. but the one on it st. charles is closed, and the one across the river is still operating. mr. liebeler. and you taught at the one---- miss murret. across the river. we didn't get paid so we---- mr. liebeler. if i understand, the one you taught at is still operating, but they haven't paid you your salary, so you quit and started teaching at fortier? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. who are your parents? miss murret. mr. and mrs. charles murret. mr. liebeler. your father is also known as dutz murret? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. what is your father's occupation? miss murret. well, steamship clerk--i don't know whether it comes under the jurisdiction of, whether it is under the mississippi shipping, or how they operate, actually. mr. liebeler. you don't know the name of the company for which he works? miss murret. i don't know if it is just--the way it is, if there is no business on one wharf, they call him on another. i just don't know how that works. mr. liebeler. and your mother's name is---- miss murret. lillian murret, maiden name claverie. mr. liebeler. your mother is the sister of marguerite claverie, is she not---- miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. who is the mother of lee harvey oswald. miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. are you familiar with your mother's family? does she have other brothers and sisters? miss murret. they are all--most of them are dead. her brothers all died when they were quite young, i believe during world war i, and when her mother died, she was about years old. her father died when i was very young, and i don't remember him at all. mr. liebeler. your mother's father died when you were a young girl? miss murret. that is right, and her mother died when she was . mr. liebeler. you mean when---- miss murret. when her mother was . mr. liebeler. when her mother was ? miss murret. yes; i think the eldest child is--i just don't have any idea. mr. liebeler. how many brothers and sisters did your mother have? miss murret. three sisters, i think, and two brothers. mr. liebeler. and one of these sisters would have been mrs. oswald; is that correct? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. so altogether in the family there would have been four girls and two boys? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. your mother's three sisters and the two---- miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. all of these three sisters, except for mrs. oswald, and both of the two brothers are deceased, is that correct? miss murret. one other sister is still living, and the rest are all dead. mr. liebeler. what is the other sister's name? miss murret. mancy. mr. liebeler. is that her last name? miss murret. that is her first name, and i can hardly remember the last name. mr. liebeler. you don't know her last name? miss murret. i do, but i can't remember it. it will come to me in a moment. she lives in frankfort. she goes from one daughter to the other daughter because her husband is dead. mr. liebeler. so she lives in---- miss murret. from kentucky and tennessee, from kentucky to tennessee she goes. mr. liebeler. so she lives in frankfort, ky., and at times she goes over to tennessee and lives with her children? how many children does she have? miss murret. three--no, four. that is winfry, is her name. mr. liebeler. what is the name of the other of your mother's sisters? miss murret. it was marguerite, mancy, my mother, and pearl was the other one. mr. liebeler. pearl, who is deceased? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. has she children living? miss murret. yes; two. mr. liebeler. what is pearl's last name? miss murret. whittaker. but he is dead also, the husband. mr. liebeler. were her children boys or girls? miss murret. two boys. mr. liebeler. do you know where they live now? miss murret. emile whittaker lives in jefferson parish somewhere, but i don't remember the street, and jack whittaker, i don't know where he lives. mr. liebeler. what was the second one? miss murret. that one was jack--she had two boys. mr. liebeler. where does jack live? do you know, offhand? miss murret. no. mr. liebeler. the first boy's name was emile? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. going back now to mancy winfry, you said she had four children? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. are they boys and girls? miss murret. three girls and one boy. mr. liebeler. do you know their names and where they are living? miss murret. andrew winfry is the boy, and he goes to school, but i am not sure whether it is in tennessee or kentucky. mr. liebeler. you would think in tennessee somewhere? miss murret. yes; or maybe the university--might be kentucky. i don't know. mr. liebeler. do you know the names of the three girls and where they live? miss murret. anne is one, and i think that she lives in frankfort, and nanny, but i don't know if that is her real name, and that probably is just a nickname, and then jackie. mr. liebeler. and jackie? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. where do nanny and jackie live? do you know? miss murret. either in tennessee or kentucky. anne lives--i don't know, either in tennessee or kentucky also. but, anyway, two of the daughters live in the same state, and one in the other. mr. liebeler. how many brothers and sisters do you have? miss murret. three brothers and one sister. mr. liebeler. three brothers and one sister? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. what are your brothers' names? miss murret. charles, eugene, john; and my sister is joyce. mr. liebeler. is your sister joyce older than you? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. she is older? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. as i understand it, charles murret is a dentist here in the city of new orleans? is that correct? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. eugene murret is studying at the catholic seminary? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. the seminary is in mobile, ala.? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. john murret does what? miss murret. he works for the squibbs pharmaceutical co. mr. liebeler. here in new orleans? miss murret. new orleans. mr. liebeler. is joyce married? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. what is her last name? miss murret. o'brien. mr. liebeler. and she lives in new orleans? miss murret. no; in beaumont, tex. mr. liebeler. now we will have the two brothers of your mother, and their names were what? miss murret. one was john. mr. liebeler. john? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. and the other? miss murret. i think charles. i didn't know them. mr. liebeler. do they have children living of which you know? miss murret. no; they died when they were very young-- and , during world war i. mr. liebeler. they do not have any children surviving them? miss murret. no; there were none. mr. liebeler. as i understand it, your mother's sister, marguerite, has three sons? miss murret. right. mr. liebeler. lee harvey oswald, robert oswald, and john pic? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. what contact have you had personally with marguerite oswald over the years? miss murret. well, when i was younger, she and mother were always on the outs. i remember her then, and then she would move away and come back and occasionally she would stay with us. the last time she moved back to new orleans was when she lived on--she would stay or days or so---- mr. liebeler. and this last time was when? miss murret. she had been away, and then i hadn't see her, but when she was on exchange alley, i think she visited one day. but when they were on exchange, living on exchange alley, of course, i used to see her occasionally. i mean when she would come over and visit, but then she moved to texas, and i hadn't seen her for ages. mr. liebeler. so then you haven't seen her since she lived here in new orleans on exchange alley, is that correct? miss murret. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. do you remember approximately when it was that she lived on exchange alley? miss murret. i don't really remember. mr. liebeler. do you remember the address where she lived on exchange alley? miss murret. no, sir. mr. liebeler. do you have any recollection of where mrs. oswald had been prior to the time that she moved back to new orleans and lived on exchange alley? miss murret. i think they were in texas, but i don't think we heard from them when she was somewhere else. mr. liebeler. did you have any occasion to meet lee harvey oswald when you saw marguerite, during the time that she lived on exchange alley? miss murret. well, then he was going to beauregard, so i would see him occasionally. mr. liebeler. was that beauregard junior high school? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. can you remember generally on what occasions you would meet lee harvey oswald? miss murret. he came over to the house several times to eat, but i don't think he was over very much. mr. liebeler. about how old was he then? do you remember? miss murret. i don't know--at that time i guess he would be getting out of high school--well, then, you would be getting out of high school when you were about , so he might have been around--i don't really know, because i think he was when he got in the service, and it wasn't long after that, so he might have been about . mr. liebeler. fifteen? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. i did not ask you when you were born, and will you tell us? miss murret. july , . mr. liebeler. did you form any impression of lee oswald during the time that you saw him, when his mother lived on exchange alley? miss murret. he was just like anybody else, i guess, but he was very reserved. he was always very reserved, and he liked to be by himself. his reason for that was always that he didn't have the same interests with the other children. i mean, he liked to read, and he loved nature, and he would just go and sit out in the park and meditate, i guess. i don't know. mr. liebeler. did you talk to him about these things, or how did you learn that he had this liking for nature and would sit in the park? miss murret. i remember it at that time, because he had gotten into a fight with children at beauregard; however, this is what my mother told me, and i don't remember this, and, anyway, it seems that he was from the north, and so they ridiculed him at the school. i don't know if it was because of the way he was dressed or not, but i actually didn't see anything wrong with his appearance, and so, he was riding in the streetcar one day, i believe, and he sat next to some negroes. well, when he got out of the streetcar, or bus, or whatever it was, these boys ganged up on him, and hit him in the mouth, and loosened his front teeth, i believe. but this i only know from my mother. well, it was after that, and then another time, and i don't know if they were teasing him and they said, "oh, lee--" and when he turned around, they hit him. it was just actually that--even though he was in fights, i think that it wasn't always his fault because i don't think he was an agitator in any way, because he really minded his own business. that much i know, but the incidents i only know from what my mother said. so, at that time i think he made the statement also, that it wasn't his fault, that he was minding his own business and "i don't have the same interests as the other students." they didn't like him because of his accent, and because he sat next to the negroes, which was one incident. but he was extremely quiet. mr. liebeler. was it in connection with the discussion of these various difficulties that he had, that you learned that he used to just go to the park and sit in the park and observe nature, and was fond of it, interested in that sort of thing? miss murret. i don't think he told me that--my mother must have told me that, because this came up when they told me this, when that boy, or that is, when some of the students from beauregard were on tv and said that he was always in fights, and it was then that my mother said, actually, i mean, that she didn't think it was his fault, because she remembered those particular incidents. mr. liebeler. and you and your mother have had discussions about this after the assassination? miss murret. right. mr. liebeler. and the occasion for that discussion was that some of his former---- miss murret. he might have told me that he didn't have anything in common with the other students--i don't remember this. this was a long time ago, and she always had said that, but i may have said that before also. i just don't remember. i know it was this time when she told me that that was the reason for not associating with the other students, and that they made fun of him. mr. liebeler. and this discussion came up when these former students from beauregard came on the program, or on the air at this tv station and said that lee harvey oswald had always been involved in fights when he was a young man, and the purport of that was that he was belligerent and difficult to get along with, and this is something that you might expect from a fellow like that, but your mother did not have that opinion? miss murret. and from what i know--it is a long time ago--but he was very quiet, and i know he didn't have many friends, i don't think, but he was not the belligerent type. he just minded his own business, and, of course, if he committed this act, i guess it was a perverted mind--i don't know--but he had a certain manner about him that other children never had. i mean he was very refined, he really was, and extremely well mannered. i mean he was not an agitator to where you would say that any trouble started with him--i don't know. i mean from what i know, he never was. mr. liebeler. do you remember that lee gave this impression back during the days that you knew him? do you have any firsthand knowledge of that difference between him and the other boys as far as refinement and being well mannered? miss murret. as far as manners, yes. definitely. and i mean with some people that would irritate them--that would irritate many people, i suppose. i don't know, but that i do remember. and, as i said, he was very quiet, so he never talked, and it was very seldom, but he always had this manner, except that when he was a very young child he was very--he was darling, and very outgoing, and a very pretty child. he was adorable, and i mean if you walked in the street with him, everybody would stop because he lived with us until he was two, or a little over two, but if my mother took him to canal street, everybody stopped to admire him. he was a very pretty child, and very happy, very cute. but, at beauregard, i don't think there was anything different about him and the others, other than he was not--well, other than, as i was saying, he would have this very erect carriage at that time also, and, well, his manner was just different from those people, or from most of those students, i should say. mr. liebeler. can you think of any other ways in which lee differed from his associates or fellow students at that time? miss murret. no; at that time i don't think because--well, i think he wanted to play ball, or other things, but he didn't have the money--it could have been other things. i just don't know. i mean he wanted to play ball, and he didn't have the money to buy the equipment, and this is a long time ago, i am telling you, and i can't remember whether my brothers or somebody gave him some equipment, and he was very appreciative, very thankful, you know. and i mean i guess he couldn't do what the other children did, because he couldn't afford it. i mean he was interested in sports at that time, and he did like others, but i mean he was more reserved than the average person; but he wasn't--i guess he was interested in some of the same things like that, but i mean he wasn't a giddy child, is what i mean. mr. liebeler. you mentioned this television program in which these former fellow students of his at beauregard indicated that he had been involved in fights when he was at beauregard. do you remember what station that program was on? miss murret. wdsu, i think, and the characters came on over and photographed my house and went all over the neighborhood, asking the neighbors what type of people we were, and what type of person my mother was. and, of course, my mother is a real good woman, so everybody had something nice to say. but it could just have been the other way around. it was absurd, and they pulled everything out, all that the people had said, and they quoted it. it was very, you know---- mr. liebeler. do you remember the name of any of the students? miss murret. voebel, ed voebel, and he wears glasses, and i think he said that he was friendly with lee at the time. mr. liebeler. can you think of any others? miss murret. any other people? mr. liebeler. yes; that were on the television program? miss murret. well, other groups of students, some girls, and a group of girls said that he was belligerent, you know, or that they didn't like the way he dressed, and all this nonsense. but he was the only one who spoke in any detail, and i think he was the only one who was very friendly and got him to join the civil air patrol, in which he was very interested. mr. liebeler. was this just a news program, or was it a feature program run by a particular reporter or commentator? miss murret. a reporter. mr. liebeler. i beg your pardon? miss murret. probably just a reporter had called these people in. mr. liebeler. but you don't remember the names of any of the men at wdsu that might be familiar with this that were on the program when these people were interviewed by someone, presumably? miss murret. my mother knows the names of the men, or the man, i believe, because he wrote this letter and wanted some detailed information. mr. liebeler. the reporter talked to you personally? miss murret. the first time my father talked, and they get you off guard, of course, and i don't know what he told them. they asked him if he had stayed at my house, and my father at that time stated that he had, and that was all he said, and after that they came in and they wanted to take pictures and everything else. i asked them to leave, which they did, but for days after they were always coming around, and, of course, we had no comments. the one from wdsu got very irate, so he went up and down the block and interviewed the entire neighborhood, and it was about a half an hour show, around o'clock or so, and had all the comments by the neighbors. mr. liebeler. did any of the neighbors remember lee oswald? miss murret. the girl next door probably did because he had stayed there a few days when he came in. mr. liebeler. he stayed at your house a few days? this was in ? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. you mentioned that lee had stayed with you when he was a young boy until the time that he was about years old. you were about or years old at that time? miss murret. just about. mr. liebeler. do you have any recollection of lee as a young child other than what you have already indicated to us that he was a very pretty child, and that he was adorable---- miss murret. he was adorable, and his personality, he was just--well, he was very bright, you know, very observant, and he was just a darling child. mr. liebeler. and he gave no indication of any behavior problems? miss murret. no; he was darling. mr. liebeler. there wasn't anything apparently wrong with him at all? miss murret. and very pleasant, you know, not the type of child who if he didn't get his way would start screaming--never any of that. he was just a very pleasant child. mr. liebeler. what were the circumstances that led to lee's living with you at that time? do you know? miss murret. well, i think the mother had to work and we kept him. mr. liebeler. his father had died shortly, or, actually before he was born? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. do you remember where lee's mother worked during that time? miss murret. i don't know--she worked for several department stores, and in a hosiery shop that she was managing, and i don't know if it was jean's hosiery shop. mr. liebeler. so it was hosiery shops or department stores? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. well, then lee left your house. where did he go after that? do you know? miss murret. i think that is when he went to texas. i am not sure if that is when she married ekdahl, or if she married ekdahl later. mr. liebeler. or what? miss murret. well, she married ekdahl when he was very young. mr. liebeler. when lee was very young? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. do you recall whether or not lee was ever in an orphanage, an orphan home here in new orleans? miss murret. i know the other two boys were, and we were trying to figure out whether he was. mr. liebeler. and you are not sure whether he ever was or not? miss murret. no; i am not. mr. liebeler. but up until the time that lee left you and went back either to his mother or to texas, or wherever he went, your recollection is perfectly clear that lee was a normal, happy, bright young boy? is that correct? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. you mentioned this man ekdahl, and can you tell us the background on that, and you were probably around , or years old, or perhaps even a little older, when mrs. oswald married mr. ekdahl; is that correct? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. do you remember ever having met mr. ekdahl? miss murret. i met him once. mr. liebeler. do you know the correct spelling of his name? miss murret. no. mr. liebeler. what were the circumstances surrounding the meeting with mr. ekdahl? miss murret. my circumstances? mr. liebeler. no; the circumstances? miss murret. he just stopped over there one day, and i think he and my aunt had john edward and robert with him, and they were going to military school. mr. liebeler. was this after they were married? miss murret. it might have been before--i don't know whether she got married here, or she met him in texas. i don't really know that. i do know that i saw him on one occasion, and at the time she had the two boys--he had the two boys with him, john and robert, because, if i remember, they were in uniform. i met him on the one occasion, and if i can remember, they had the two boys with them, and they were both in uniform. mr. liebeler. did you ever hear of the circumstances under which mrs. oswald married ekdahl, or met him? what do you know about this relationship? miss murret. just nothing other than what my mother has said, that actually she didn't want to get married because he was an older man, and i think he was sick, or something, and it was his sister who said, "well, why don't you marry him?" so, they got married. i think she was quite hesitant about it, actually. mr. liebeler. before mrs. oswald married lee harvey oswald's father, she was married to a man named pic, is that correct? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. have you ever met him? miss murret. no. mr. liebeler. do you know anything about that marriage? miss murret. well, that again, only from what my mother has said, that he did not want any children, and father and she found that very difficult to believe, so they thought that maybe it was just marguerite saying that. and she loved him, and then when she got pregnant, or, she got pregnant once and lost the baby, and he had threatened to leave if she got pregnant. so, after she lost the baby, he wanted her to go back to him, which she did. but when she got pregnant with john, he didn't--he said that he would leave before that, if she got pregnant, or something, so, anyway, he talked to my mother and my mother found out definitely that that was true. and he definitely did not want any children. so when she got pregnant with john, she left because he didn't want her to have the baby, or he didn't want her to ever to get pregnant, so she left, or he left. he left her, or she left him--it might be the other way, but, anyway, he didn't want any children, and he had always threatened that if she got pregnant, he would leave. but i think that when she got pregnant with john, she was probably carrying him, so she left, or maybe he said he was leaving--i just don't know. anyway, that was mostly what my mother said, she couldn't conceive of any man being like that, but it was definitely true, because either she had talked to him or---- mr. liebeler. either your mother talked to pic, or, in any event, your mother learned that apparently it was true that mr. pic didn't want to have any children? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. do you know whether mrs. oswald, that is, marguerite, met mr. oswald before she was divorced from pic or separated from pic, or afterwards? miss murret. mr. oswald? mr. liebeler. yes? miss murret. it was a long time after that they were married. mr. liebeler. did you ever meet or know lee harvey oswald's father? miss murret. i saw him. mr. liebeler. do you have any recollection of him, what he was like? miss murret. no; just as a person, you know, and i saw a picture later, and i could visualize him perfectly. i was very young then. mr. liebeler. do you have any other recollections of lee oswald as a young man that you can recall that you think would be helpful at this time, specifically after he left your home at the age of two? was the next time you saw him when he moved back and moved over into exchange alley? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. did he seem to be the kind of person then that you would have expected him to be, based on your recollection of him as a -year old? or did he seem different? just tell us what impression did you have when you met him again? miss murret. i don't think i really compared him to the time when he was a child, but he was a little different, as i said, from other children in that he was more reserved than the average teenager. mr. liebeler. did you think that he was a sensitive person? miss murret. no. what i actually thought was that he, i mean he just had certain interests and i mean because he had been reared like that, and probably--i think is what my mother said, and i don't know, but my aunt had no alternative--i mean they probably did the wrong thing by having him stay by himself, but, in other words, under the circumstances they thought that that would be better than getting into trouble with other people, and maybe it just worked the other way around. but she trained him to be by himself, because she had to work, and so she thought it would be better to have him stay home and listen to the radio and television and read, rather than to get in with other boys and do things they shouldn't do, with no intention of--i am saying if he did this--of warping his mind. but it just happened to turn out that way, but she thought she was doing the right thing, and he would never talk to any strangers, or anything. he was just reared like that. mr. liebeler. the last time you saw marguerite, i think you testified this was during the time that she lived here in new orleans on exchange alley, before she went to texas? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. did you form an impression of her? miss murret. who? marguerite? mr. liebeler. yes. miss murret. when she came back you mean? mr. liebeler. yes; at any time, just what your general impression and feeling about marguerite oswald was? miss murret. i think she is a woman of very good character, but she had a very curt tongue, and she doesn't forget very easily. i mean if you have an argument with her, i don't think she forgets it immediately. but she also, i guess, and it is probably her reason for that, and i mean, if she worked, she had to work in these department stores, and she was not a gossipy type of woman, and i don't know but i worked a few summers in a department store, and i know that for these sales how they--i mean they will slit one another's throats. mr. liebeler. the sales clerks? miss murret. yes. i think that the employees were arguing--she didn't engage in petty gossip as other employees and probably got in arguments over that, you know, and she was a little quick-tongued. mr. liebeler. but other than that you have no---- miss murret. other than that she was nice in her own way, you know. mr. liebeler. there was a time in the spring of when lee oswald came to new orleans, isn't that correct? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. tell us what you know about that? miss murret. when he came in the last time, you mean? mr. liebeler. yes. that was the next time that you saw lee oswald after he and his mother left the exchange alley address and went to texas, isn't that correct? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. tell us what happened in connection with his coming to new orleans? miss murret. he telephoned my mother, i think from the bus station. of course, we didn't even know that he was back, and so he asked if he could stay there a while until he got a job, and he told my mother that he was married, and that he had a baby. so, my mother asked him if he was alone, because if he had a family she wouldn't have been able to accommodate him. but he was by himself, so she said o.k. he stayed there a while until he found a place on magazine street. and then the wife and this lady from texas came down, and they moved into the place on magazine street. mr. liebeler. do you live with your mother? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. were you at home during the time that oswald lived there during that period? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. how long was he there? miss murret. i am not sure whether it was a week or a little over a week. mr. liebeler. did you have any conversations with him during that time? miss murret. during the day he was usually looking for a job, and i was working. and in the evening maybe we would talk a little, but nothing in particular. i was usually working on lesson plans, and he went to work about : or o'clock, and the only discussions that i really had was on religion. mr. liebeler. was that during this week? miss murret. i beg your pardon? mr. liebeler. was that at the time? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. what did he say about that, and what did you say? miss murret. he just listened. mr. liebeler. what did you say? miss murret. and then he just said or i assumed that he was an atheist because a brother of mine is in the seminary, you know---- mr. liebeler. anyway, he knew of your brother in the seminary? miss murret. actually, he was more concerned about that, i guess, and so i just said this, this religious discussion. i just set this off because he was not interested at all, and so he just listened and he said that he had his own philosophy, and that he was an atheist. but he didn't argue, or anything, and he just let me rave on for about an hour. mr. liebeler. you are a catholic, is that correct? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. a practicing catholic? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. and you expressed that to oswald? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. as best as you can recall, all he did was listen and then he indicated that he had his own way? miss murret. which he didn't express. mr. liebeler. but he did tell you that he was an atheist? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. he didn't go into any further details than that? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. did you get any feeling about him when you had this discussion with him? i mean, did it seem kind of strange to you that someone would just sit and let you go on at such length on a subject like that, and then not really respond to it? miss murret. that was typical of lee. mr. liebeler. typical of lee? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. he didn't express any disgust or short temperedness with you over your---- miss murret. no. oh, no. mr. liebeler. do you remember any other discussions or confrontations that you might have had? miss murret. that was the only time that i had had any chance to talk with him, and that was the first day that he came--i believe it was. after that, on saturdays, or that particular saturday he was out all day looking around for a job. and then on that sunday he wanted to know where his father was buried, and he wanted to locate some of his relatives, because he had said that when marina's family had asked him about his family, he didn't know anything at all, he didn't know what descent he was, and he said he realized, or he missed not being close to his relatives, because he didn't know any of them other than us. mr. liebeler. did he ask you about this or---- miss murret. my mother. mr. liebeler. and you were there at the time? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. what did your mother tell him? miss murret. my mother checked the telephone directory, and i think most of the oswalds were dead. harvey oswald, who was his godfather, i believe, is dead. he did find one relative and he went to see her. mr. liebeler. what was her name? miss murret. i don't know, but that might have been his wife. my mother would know. mr. liebeler. whose wife? harvey oswald's? miss murret. they were very old. that was his father's brother, but they are all dead. but it might be one of the wives who is still living, and he went out there to see her, and she gave him a picture of his father. and then he went to visit the grave. mr. liebeler. of his father? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. did he talk to you about that at all? miss murret. no. mr. liebeler. what happened to the picture? do you know? miss murret. i think he might have told my mother about it, and i think he might have told me, but i was there that sunday and he caught the bus and went to the other house, and this old lady gave him the picture of his father. and he just showed it, and that was all. mr. liebeler. was it a large picture or---- miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. and did he take it with him when he left, when he moved over to the apartment on magazine street? miss murret. yes. i guess so---- mr. liebeler. you haven't seen it around the house since? miss murret. no. mr. liebeler. you mentioned something about when he caught the bus and went to the other aunt? miss murret. you say to the aunt? mr. liebeler. to this aunt who gave him the picture? miss murret. well, i mean he left and i know he caught the bus. mr. liebeler. did he seem concerned about his ability to find a job? miss murret. he wanted to find a job so marina could come down here. i know he was looking--i mean he seemed like he really wanted to find one. and when he found it, he seemed to be very happy about it. mr. liebeler. did he tell you---- miss murret. i mean the one at the reily coffee co. mr. liebeler. did he tell you why he came to new orleans to look for a job? miss murret. he had said that marina wanted to be near the sea, and she thought she would like new orleans. he didn't tell me that; he told my mother. mr. liebeler. you knew at this time that he had been to the soviet union, did you not? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. did you talk to him about his experiences in russia? miss murret. i asked him how he liked it, and he showed me a few photographs, my mother and i, of where he lived. and that is when he said about the family, that people were very family conscious---- mr. liebeler. in russia? miss murret. yes; i don't know--i think he was citing one experience where he was traveling, or something, and there were some people who had less than he had, and invited him in, which they would probably do here, but just never had occasion to, and they had very little, but what they had they shared with him. that is when he said that he was very embarrassed because when they asked him what descent he was, he said he didn't know, didn't know nothing at all about his family, and that is why he was determined to locate his various relatives here. mr. liebeler. did you ask him why he went to russia in the first place? miss murret. no; i was away when he left, and i didn't even know he left actually, and my mother didn't tell me anything, to worry me, and i saw his brother, john. and my sister had written me a letter just before that and said that marguerite had not heard from lee, and that she had sent some money and the envelope was returned. i didn't know where he had gone, and i guess they just assumed that i knew. my mother didn't want to worry me probably, because all the scandal was brewing in all the papers, and everything. i went to visit john, and his wife told me at that time---- mr. liebeler. where was john living at that time? miss murret. in japan. mr. liebeler. you were in japan at that time? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. what were you doing in japan? miss murret. i taught school over there. mr. liebeler. in an english speaking school? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. did john tell you that lee had gone to russia? miss murret. he didn't tell me--his wife told me. so i didn't bring the subject up at all with john. i mean we weren't invading anybody's privacy at all, and if he wanted to say something, he would say. and i know that she said that they were very upset because this put him over the barrel, and he has a family, and he was very embarrassed. mr. liebeler. john was? miss murret. of course, and they had three children, and i mean it was in stars and stripes. mr. liebeler. john was in the air force at that time? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. you didn't bring the subject up of lee at all as to why he went? miss murret. no, sir. mr. liebeler. did he indicate anything about his experiences in russia other than what you have already told us? miss murret. the only thing he said was--i just didn't know any of this would happen, and i didn't know he would be leaving and i thought that he would say what he wanted to say, because i don't believe in bombarding somebody with questions, i really don't, and what they want to say, they say, and what they don't want to say, they don't say. so, anyway, he said that he had better quarters than the average person because he was an american, and they wanted to create a good impression on him. other than about the family and showing me a few photographs, that is all he said. and he said that he had met marina at this dance, and he worked in the factory. mr. liebeler. did he tell you what kind of factory? miss murret. no; he didn't. mr. liebeler. did he tell you what he did? miss murret. no. mr. liebeler. did he tell you how much he was paid? miss murret. no; maybe he did, but i wouldn't know what it was, anyway. mr. liebeler. did he tell you about any travels that he had in the soviet union? miss murret. well, just that he said, and i don't know where he was going or where he was when he said it, that these people let him spend the night there and that they had less than he had. so if that was on the outskirts, or where it was, i don't really know. mr. liebeler. do you speak russian? miss murret. no. mr. liebeler. do you speak any foreign language? miss murret. i studied french and spanish, but was hopeless. mr. liebeler. did he tell you about any school that he might have gone to when he was in russia, any training that he might have gotten? miss murret. no sir; he didn't say anything at all about any kind of training. when he first came out, i couldn't understand how he had gotten out, in the first place. mr. liebeler. how he had gotten out of russia to come back, you mean? miss murret. with a russian wife, and he did say her father was--was he a russian officer? anyway---- mr. liebeler. did he say her father---- miss murret. he was, or she might have said that in her broken english, so i couldn't conceive of how they had gotten out of russia, and how he had access to russia, i mean to work there, et cetera, and then just to be allowed to leave, with a russian wife, and her father being in the army. and i think that she had an uncle--i don't know--but i think it was in the papers, or in some magazine recently that he is with the intelligence service in russia. mr. liebeler. her uncle? miss murret. yes; he, supposedly, was the one who helped him to get out. so, that i couldn't figure out. mr. liebeler. did you ask him about it? did you ask lee about that? miss murret. yes; and he said he'd had a tough time. that is about the only thing i did ask him, and he said he'd had a very difficult time getting out, and he had to wait for a particular length of time until everything went through, and he knew that since, or if he had not had a wife, he could have gotten out sooner, but he had to wait on her papers, and by that time they'd had a baby, but, anyway, i wasn't satisfied, but by that time i couldn't understand how they got out. but, i said, well, if they let them out, they went through the embassy obviously, and if they were doing things he was not supposed to do, they would be trailing him. mr. liebeler. you thought this? miss murret. well, any time anybody comes out of russia, you think it, naturally. mr. liebeler. but you didn't say anything to lee about it? miss murret. no; definitely not. i had just asked him if it was difficult to get out, and so then i said, well, if he were up to anything, you know, they would obviously be trailing him, so we could just forget about that because he might really have realized that he made a mistake, and he was coming back over here. i mean, you don't try to antagonize him--i mean you try to help him, and figure, thinking that if he realizes that he made a mistake and he wanted to come back here, you would do everything you could to help him. mr. liebeler. did he indicate that he had been given trouble about getting out of russia by the russians or by the americans? or did he distinguish between them because he thought he had been harrassed by the two authorities? miss murret. i don't think he really said, but i don't remember that he--i think, or i thought he meant the russians, because the americans gave him the money, evidently they were willing to give it to him anytime. mr. liebeler. where did you learn about the fact that the americans had given him the money? did he tell you that? miss murret. he told my mother that. mr. liebeler. can you remember any more about it than just that he had received money from the united states? did he tell you any more details, or did your mother repeat them to you? miss murret. well, and then i read something about it. mr. liebeler. after the assassination? miss murret. yes; i think it was in life, that he had renounced his citizenship, but that the american embassy said that he didn't, and that that was why he got back here; or that if he had renounced it, he couldn't have gotten back, so he was an alien. i don't know. mr. liebeler. did you know about this at all, or have any conversation with lee about it before the assassination? miss murret. about what? mr. liebeler. about this time that he renounced his citizenship and these difficulties? miss murret. well, they had articles in the papers that my mother showed me after i came home, fort worth papers, that he threw the passport on the desk. but i didn't ask him about that at all. mr. liebeler. and he didn't tell you anything about it? miss murret. no. mr. liebeler. did it seem extraordinary to you that he had been able to obtain money from the state department or whomever he obtained it from to return to the united states? miss murret. extraordinary in the fact that i didn't know how he could get out with a russian wife and baby, whose uncle was in the military, and an uncle--i don't know what he was at the time--but i thought he was affiliated with the military, but i have read something since then that the father was with the intelligence service. but then i didn't really think too much that--well, your first reaction, but then you don't think too much about that after because he had to go through the embassy. so you figure that it was one of two things, he either really realized that he wanted to live here again, or they let him out for a purpose. and if they did, then they would certainly be trailing him. mr. liebeler. did it occur to you that he might be an agent of the soviet union? miss murret. at first; yes. mr. liebeler. you mean when you first---- miss murret. the first reaction. mr. liebeler. you mean when you first---- miss murret. well, the fact that he got out. mr. liebeler. but when you say "at first," you don't mean at first, after the assassination? you mean at first, after you saw him? miss murret. after he came out. mr. liebeler. and you didn't really think about that too much until he came here in , or had you considered it prior to that time? miss murret. we didn't know he was out. mr. liebeler. until he came here? miss murret. right. mr. liebeler. you didn't know he was back from russia at all? miss murret. he just telephoned mother and my mother said, "i didn't even know you were back." and he said, "i have been back for--i don't know--probably a year." mr. liebeler. did you have any discussions with your mother or anybody else in your family about the possibility that oswald might be a russian agent? miss murret. as i said, i dispelled that immediately because i thought, well, if he was, they would certainly be trailing him. so, i mean you can't go around with suspicion like that, or, i mean certainly the american embassy should know what is going on. so, if that were the case, well, they would be on his trail. and, if not, well, he was definitely sincere. i mean, you don't try to antagonize or constantly throw up past mistakes, in case he, you know---- mr. liebeler. so you considered the question briefly and dismissed it for the reasons you state? miss murret. yes; but just the first reaction would be, how did he get out? mr. liebeler. and, as you have stated, the reason for your thinking of the question in the first place was because of the apparent ease with which he was able to leave the soviet union with a russian wife? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. did it cause you any concern to associate with him or have anything to do with him at all after you considered the question that he might have been a russian agent? i mean, you said that you dismissed it because you assumed if he was, he was being trailed, or the authorities would be in touch with him, but did it concern you that they might associate you with oswald, or identify you in any way? miss murret. no. mr. liebeler. it did not? miss murret. no, sir. mr. liebeler. after the first week that lee was at your home, he rented an apartment and moved out? is that correct? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. were you there when he left your house? miss murret. no. mr. liebeler. did he tell you he found an apartment? miss murret. he told me about it. mr. liebeler. did he or did he not tell you personally? miss murret. i don't remember whether i was there or not. yes; i think i might have been. yes; i was, because i think he came home and said that it was a lovely place, but he didn't know whether marina would like it, because it had high ceilings, and she didn't like high ceilings. but he liked it. mr. liebeler. did marina come out to your house at this time? miss murret. well, when they came in, the lady from texas brought her---- mr. liebeler. in a station wagon? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. do you know her name? miss murret. i know now; yes. it was paine. mr. liebeler. did you know her at that time? miss murret. no; he introduced me, i think, or she introduced herself--i don't remember--because i was getting ready to go out and that was when i was in and out, getting dressed. but he also had referred to her just as marina's friend in texas, and i told her it was very nice to meet her. mr. liebeler. they actually came there to your house before lee moved out, or after he moved out? miss murret. he had moved out, i think, he himself, and then he came to my house, and then from there they were going to go, so they wouldn't get lost--so they could find the directions, or something. i don't know. mr. liebeler. so marina and mrs. paine came to your house and they went from there, went to the apartment on magazine then? miss murret. they stayed there a very short while and marina was petrified---- mr. liebeler. what was she petrified about? miss murret. well, on meeting us for the first time, and the language barrier, and the baby was cross and crying because of all the people there, i guess, and probably tired. i think marina was nervous or probably thinking that we would think that it was a bad or a spoiled child. so they left very shortly after, and i don't think marina ever came in the back. mrs. paine came in the back to get a root beer, and i can't remember if that is when she introduced herself, or i was in the front when they introduced them, or not. i met marina when she came into the living room. i don't remember whether he introduced me to mrs. paine formally, or whether she introduced herself. mr. liebeler. was lee there at that time? miss murret. yes; he had moved out---- mr. liebeler. but he had come out, that is, come back to your house to meet marina and mrs. paine? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. did you talk to marina? miss murret. she doesn't speak english. on that day we hardly said anything. mr. liebeler. it was indicated to you that she could not speak english; is that correct? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. did you ever try to talk to marina in english? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. how did it go? miss murret. it was exasperating. mr. liebeler. did she understand any english? miss murret. i think she understood more than she could speak, but still there is a lot she doesn't understand. mr. liebeler. did you have the feeling that she was not very proficient in the english language? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. were you able to communicate anything in any way with her at all in english? miss murret. just petty things, you know, like if she would eat something, how to make that, and "no like," or through mannerisms and small words to say a few things. she also commented, you know, when they would eat over there a few times--on the food, but other than that, she---- mr. liebeler. did you form any impression of mrs. paine? miss murret. mrs. paine? i don't know--my mother had said that lee had been invited to this professor's house, or something, to show slides, a professor out at tulane, a professor of languages. mr. liebeler. what is his name? is it riseman? miss murret. that was when he was living on magazine, and i think they telephoned my mother to find out if anybody had called the house for an application, or different things, and i think he said he was going that night, that they were suppose to show slides. now, this man had one daughter, i think, who was in russia, and he was a friend of mrs. paine's. mr. liebeler. would the name kloepfer sound like the---- miss murret. no. mr. liebeler. how about riseman? miss murret. no; i don't know the language professor's name. mr. liebeler. you think your mother would remember? miss murret. i don't think so, because i think it was the other secret service man who tried to get her to remember and she couldn't. mr. liebeler. and this professor, he was a professor of what? miss murret. languages. mr. liebeler. what language? russian? miss murret. i don't know if it was only russian, or what, or some other language. he just teaches, you know---- mr. liebeler. and you don't have any idea where he lived? miss murret. who? the professor? no. so then it was just that he had a daughter in russia, and i was just wondering why she got to know him. mr. liebeler. oswald? miss murret. i often wonder how it was that she spoke russian. mr. liebeler. who? mrs. paine? miss murret. yes; and then it came out in the paper, or it was in time magazine, or something, that she was a quaker, so i discarded all those ideas also, claiming where she was, i guess, just purely interested in the language, and you would see people who spoke that language. mr. liebeler. were you suspicious of mrs. paine? were you suspicious of mrs. paine in any way? miss murret. at first, because she sought all of the russian speaking people, and she spoke russian herself. mr. liebeler. did you indicate that the secret service had discussed this with you about the professor? miss murret. no; my mother told me. mr. liebeler. your mother told this to the secret service man? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. were you there when she talked to the secret service man? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. do you remember anything else about this professor that we could use to find out who he was, or who he is? miss murret. no; i don't. but it probably would be easy enough to find, if he has a daughter who is a student over there, and i don't think that that would be too difficult to find. mr. liebeler. after he and marina had moved into the apartment on magazine street, did you ever go to the apartment? miss murret. i just drove him over there once or--i think we drove him home once or twice. mr. liebeler. were you ever inside of the apartment? miss murret. once i went in the back part. mr. liebeler. what kind of place was it? miss murret. well, they had a back part of the house, and i never did know whether it was a double, or what, or just the back part was arranged to make an apartment. but he had called one sunday afternoon and said that marina wanted to come over there. so i think we picked them up in the afternoon and brought them, but usually if they came, they took the bus, and we always took them home. mr. liebeler. how many times did you see the oswalds after that? miss murret. on magazine? mr. liebeler. that you recall? yes? miss murret. i think they came over one day, one saturday, and then a half a day on sunday, or this might have been the same day--i don't know--and labor day, because i was not here from the beginning of july until september. mr. liebeler. am i correct in understanding then that the last time you saw oswald was on labor day, , which would have been early in september? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. is that the time that you went crabbing with him? miss murret. no. mr. liebeler. what was the occasion that you met him on labor day? what did you do? miss murret. they called up, or lee called up and said that marina wanted to come over, that she was tired of sitting at home. but my mother had said, because the last time that they were there and they were there all day, with the language barrier, my mother was exhausted, so she told him to come in the afternoon. and this they did, about or they came over in the bus. mr. liebeler. did they come over on the bus? miss murret. yes; and then we took them back. mr. liebeler. when did you go crabbing with him? you did, did you not? miss murret. i think it was on a saturday. mr. liebeler. so this would have been before july, is that correct? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. because you have indicated that you were not in new orleans during july or august of ? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. who also went on this crabbing expedition? miss murret. just marina and i and he. i think the baby stayed at my house. mr. liebeler. tell us what you can recall about that? miss murret. we went to the lake, and lee was doing all the crabbing, of course, and we didn't have any crabs, so i just sat there with marina. and then we walked over to the coke machine and got a coke, and i got some cigarettes, and i remember she said that she didn't smoke, and that lee didn't want her to smoke. so we came on back and marina told him something in russian, and he started to laugh. and he said, "do you know what she said?" i said "no." he said, or he was saying that women are all alike, because she was telling him that here you spend or you only could afford, i think he had two nets, and that was all that he had money for, and the meat, so she was telling him, "you spend the money for the nets and the meat, and you are spending all of your time catching nothing, when we could have gone down to the french market and got them for the same price." he said, "they are all alike, you know, russians, american, typical woman." i just sat there with her. mr. liebeler. did he ever catch any crabs that day? miss murret. no, sir. mr. liebeler. do you remember anything else that was said or that happened on that day that was worthy of any note? miss murret. she didn't say anything and he was walking up and down---- mr. liebeler. lee was? miss murret. and i was sitting on the steps with them, and it was only an hour and a half. mr. liebeler. so you were not able to talk to marina? miss murret. i said a little bit, but nothing--i mean, you couldn't really talk, and you would just exhaust yourself with petty things, you know, word for word. mr. liebeler. how did this crabbing expedition come to pass in the first place? did lee call you and ask you to take him, or---- miss murret. no; i think that they were over there and he just said, i don't know, maybe just that they were going to the lake. i don't remember. and then they asked me, stopped and asked me if i wanted to---- mr. liebeler. but when this started out, lee and marina were over at your house on french? and marina and lee left from there and went on this expedition? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. did you form an impression as to how marina and lee got along with each other? miss murret. well, as i am saying, at first, i had no idea, when he first came out, but then after i met them together, and then since the assassination, of course, you know, how most of my thoughts are running back because that happened, but after that time, i am saying that some statements came out that he was very strict with her--i don't know. you don't know in anybody else's house, i guess, but from all indications they were perfectly happy. he was very devoted to marina. he seemed to love his child very much. and as i say, i am saying that he was very well-mannered, he really was. and i mean if any other girl sat down, he pulled the chair out, and the car door was opened to let her in and out, and he does that for everybody. and, i don't know, she just seemed to be perfectly happy, and that is when i really thought that my imagination had just run away with me in the beginning, and that probably i--and he seemed to--i don't know, but they just seemed to be very family conscious and devoted. in fact, they were a real cute couple. mr. liebeler. there wasn't anything about that that struck you as peculiar or out of the ordinary? miss murret. no. mr. liebeler. you never heard of them having any marital difficulties of any kind while they were here? miss murret. only what i read. mr. liebeler. only what you read in the paper after the assassination? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. when marina mentioned to you that lee didn't want her to smoke, did you detect any resentment on marina's part over that? miss murret. no; not at all. it was just that a lot of husbands don't want their wives to smoke, for that matter. i mean you can't--i couldn't really type her either, with the language barrier, but i mean she seemed to be very nice to older people. she also, when they did eat there, she immediately went to do the dishes, you know. you know, "don't, marina, i won't let you do anything like that," and when my mother was around, she always saw that she had a seat. and, i mean, she didn't seem to feel any resentment at all, although she said that she had smoked before that. mr. liebeler. did she indicate that she was satisfied with the apartment or---- miss murret. she didn't like it. mr. liebeler. she didn't like the apartment? miss murret. she said she, "no like. no like." mr. liebeler. did you understand---- miss murret. well, she didn't like the high ceilings, and lee had said that he didn't think she would, if they had a high ceiling place. in fact, when they went, she didn't like it. she said that she liked low ceilings. mr. liebeler. and you said that you were in the apartment on one occasion, is that correct? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. was it an appealing place, or was it decently furnished? miss murret. my mother and i had gone there, and i thought it was very nice for the money, actually. mr. liebeler. do you know how much he was paying for it? miss murret. sixty-five. mr. liebeler. what kind of neighborhood was it in? miss murret. on magazine--i don't know about magazine, but i don't think magazine is too good. but the apartment was all newly furnished. they had a new icebox, i believe, and the other furniture was all refinished, and the walls newly painted. mr. liebeler. you mentioned before that you had discussed religion with lee; and had you ever discussed politics with him at all? miss murret. he never mentioned anything of any political significance at all, never. mr. liebeler. never said anything about president kennedy? miss murret. no, sir. mr. liebeler. or governor connally? miss murret. no; but i can't remember whether it was--if that was before or if it was on that program, where he said something complimentary about kennedy, but he never mentioned anyone else. mr. liebeler. what program are you referring to? miss murret. that might have been when they showed when he was interviewed after the fair play for cuba, because it was after the assassination that they reran that. mr. liebeler. that was a television program? miss murret. yes; television. mr. liebeler. and you say that you saw it after the assassination? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. and you don't recall, but you think the man said something complimentary about kennedy on that? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. and other than that you never heard him speak of president kennedy? miss murret. no. mr. liebeler. did he ever talk about civil rights, and particularly the negro? miss murret. no. mr. liebeler. you mentioned when he was younger that he made it a point, or at least, he did sit down on the streetcar right next to some negroes, and he got in trouble with his friends over that? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. do you have any idea what motivated that, or whether it was just a rebellious kind of thing? miss murret. i don't think he knew any better. he didn't know the cars were segregated, i don't think. i don't know. i just remember my mother telling me whether or not he knew, or whether he did it, you know, defiantly--i don't know. mr. liebeler. you mentioned you were not in new orleans during july and august of , and where were you? miss murret. i went to mexico and all through central america and panama. mr. liebeler. did you travel by yourself? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. how did you travel? miss murret. by bus and station wagon. mr. liebeler. your own station wagon? miss murret. no; public transportation. mr. liebeler. did you know that oswald went to mexico in september? miss murret. no. mr. liebeler. did you read about that in the newspapers after the assassination? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. but prior to that time you didn't know that he either planned to go to mexico or he was going to mexico, or had gone to mexico, or was even thinking about going to mexico? miss murret. no. mr. liebeler. did you meet anybody on this trip to mexico that had any connection with, as far as you know, lee oswald, either at that time or subsequently? miss murret. on this trip, no. mr. liebeler. what was the nature of the trip? was it just basically a tourist operation? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. basically a tourist operation, you say? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. when you returned from mexico to new orleans, you learned, did you not, that oswald had managed to get himself in jail during the summer? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. how did you learn that? miss murret. my family. mr. liebeler. your family told you? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. what did they tell you? miss murret. well, just, in other words, he had the fair play for cuba pamphlets, and they took him to jail. and my sister had to go and get him out. and, of course, she didn't know what he was in there for, and so my mother was in the hospital at the time and my mother was not supposed to have that operation until the fall, you know, but then they decided to have it then. so, anyway, she was in the hospital for that, and i think she said that lee came up to see her--but i don't know if it was after, the next day, or before she was operated on--came to see her at the hospital--and then that must have been the date when he left and was distributing the pamphlets. so he called up and he told joyce that he was in jail, and to come and get him out. she didn't know what to do because she had her two children there, and my mother was in the hospital, and nobody to take care of the children. so she said, "call me back, or something" or she said that she didn't have the money on her, and that my mother wasn't there. well, i don't know how that works, but anyway, she went down to the police station and went back home again and went up to see my mother and asked my mother what to do. so, anyway, she went back to the station, and she said, "before i get him out of there, i want you to tell me what he is in there for." so the policeman told her, he said, not to get excited because, "i've handled these cases before, and it is not as bad as it seems," and all that. and she didn't know whether to get him out or not, since he was involved in that. and i don't know if they went back to the hospital or what, but they called this friend and he had him paroled. mr. liebeler. who was the friend? do you know? miss murret. of course, he didn't know--that was emile bruneau, who is a very prominent man. he didn't know lee at all, and that was just a personal favor. he is very active in the city, i mean, and this was just a personal favor. mr. liebeler. did you have any conversations with lee about this episode when you saw him on labor day? miss murret. i didn't ask ask him anything else. mr. liebeler. did you ever see lee drive an automobile? miss murret. as far as i know, he didn't drive, and my brother took him one day out through the park to attempt to teach him for about an hour. but he had to turn down several jobs because he didn't drive. and whether he is able to drive after one lesson like that, i don't know. mr. liebeler. as far as you know, did your brother ever let lee take his car and go by himself. miss murret. no. mr. liebeler. this was your brother john? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. did he ever tell you how well oswald did? miss murret. well, it was a hydramatic and he could just steer it, and that was about all, and with subsequent lessons he would have been able to drive. but i doubt, and i don't think there was any traffic--i think it was in the park. mr. liebeler. did you see mrs. paine again when she came to pick up marina and take her back to texas? miss murret. i only saw her once, and that was for about or minutes. mr. liebeler. and that was in may ? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. did you know lee had lost his job with the reily coffee co. sometime during the summer? miss murret. i guess he did--i don't know if that was after i came back or before, when he lost it. i don't know when he lost it. when did he lose it? mr. liebeler. he lost it in july, sometime, while you were gone. miss murret. well, weeks at my sister's about july , and from there, days, because the th is my birthday, i left. mr. liebeler. you learned that he had lost it when you got back to new orleans? when you got back to new orleans, you knew that he had lost the job and was unemployed? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. was he looking around for another job? do you know? miss murret. i don't know. i only saw them once after that, and that was labor day. i didn't ask him anything. mr. liebeler. you mentioned this trip that you had been on, and you mentioned that you were in japan? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. how long were you out of the united states, and where did you go, and what did you do? miss murret. three and a half years, and i started out on my way and went to hong kong, the philippines, japan, australia, new zealand, singapore, which was not a part of malaysia at the time, malaya, and straight on around, just following the bottom--i went all through, beirut, the holy land, egypt, cyprus, and all through europe and back. mr. liebeler. did you work during the time you were gone on this trip? miss murret. i worked in australia and new zealand and japan. mr. liebeler. as a teacher? miss murret. as a teacher; yes. mr. liebeler. did you teach in australian schools or---- miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. did you have any trouble with the teacher certification problems, or don't they have that problem in those places? miss murret. well, it depends what your field is. i was teaching science, which is the same--they have a teacher's college which is years, and, if anything, you would have more than they have. mr. liebeler. you are a science teacher? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. where were you when you heard about the assassination? miss murret. at juno. mr. liebeler. in school? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. when did you hear that lee had been arrested in connection with it? miss murret. after i came home one evening, because when i heard it, i was eating lunch, and a little boy in my class came over and told me that he had been shot. so they all had their radios on, and i ran over back to the class, and i listened to it. and i remember the first part, where they said that there was a lady and a man, and they said that they had somebody else, years old, and i didn't even hear at that time anything of having lee at all, until i got back home. i think that was because i had left school about : , or maybe a little earlier, and up until that time i don't think they had had something about lee because it was only a lady and a man, and some other man that they thought was a foreigner. mr. liebeler. were you surprised when you heard that lee had been arrested in connection with the assassination? miss murret. slightly! mr. liebeler. in fact, you were very surprised? miss murret. of course. mr. liebeler. did you believe that he could have done it? miss murret. no, no. mr. liebeler. and you didn't believe he could have done it, based on your knowledge of him and your association with him? miss murret. no. mr. liebeler. and you didn't think that he was motivated to do a thing like that, or capable of it, either one? miss murret. no. mr. liebeler. and you have been thinking about it, i am sure, since this assassination, and searching your mind for any possible motive that oswald might have had for doing this, assuming that he did do it, have you not? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. have you come up with anything? miss murret. well, so many theories have been expounded, if he did, and i don't really know why, but i don't think, as some people said, because he was jealous of kennedy and all that kennedy stood for. i don't think it would have been that. i don't know what he would gain by killing the president when somebody else could take over the government just as effectively--i mean with our governmental system. so, if he did it, it would--i don't know, unless it was to discredit america in the eyes of the world. mr. liebeler. and you can't think of anything, that is, any personal motive that he might have had? miss murret. no. you mean envy, or something, or desire to---- mr. liebeler. for self-aggrandizement to draw attention to himself? miss murret. no; and most people have that opinion. i don't think so. mr. liebeler. he never struck you as being that way? miss murret. no. mr. liebeler. he struck you as being just the ordinary, normal human being? miss murret. he struck me as being perfectly content with being the way he was. mr. liebeler. did he tell you what kind of job he had with the coffee company? miss murret. no. mr. liebeler. did you know? miss murret. no; i don't know if it was a mechanical one or---- mr. liebeler. did he seem to be satisfied with his job? miss murret. he said it was all right. mr. liebeler. did he impress you as having strong feelings about things or not? miss murret. he didn't talk that much when he was over here, he really didn't. i mean once, when i asked him several things about russia, he said nothing other than what i told you, in very general terms. i asked him how he liked his job, and he said it was all right, that it wasn't any different from any other factory. most people seem to think that he had a desire to do something that would show that he was somebody. but he didn't strike me as being that way. i think he really thought he was somebody. mr. liebeler. did he strike you as being a person of integrity? miss murret. perfectly content--i mean he thought he was extremely intelligent. mr. liebeler. did you think he was? miss murret. i thought that he was very articulate, but i mean i never discussed anything with him in any great length to know whether or not he knew what he was talking about. mr. liebeler. how did you form the impression that he was very articulate? you had the impression that he didn't talk very much? miss murret. no; but i mean his accent was very good. i mean he pronounced every syllable and the word endings were always pronounced, and he didn't talk very--he was just very quiet. if he didn't want to answer something, he didn't answer. you could be with somebody like that a year, and you would get no answers--if he didn't care to give them. mr. liebeler. did you ever feel particularly close to him, or that you had any peculiar or any real rapport with the man at all? miss murret. well, i regarded him because he was my cousin, i guess. i mean i wanted to see him settled and happy, naturally; and if i could have helped him in any way, just as my mother, we all would have. i mean he didn't have too easy a life. i liked lee. he didn't strike me as being violent or definitely not one who could commit such an act. mr. liebeler. do you think that lee would be liked by most people? miss murret. no. mr. liebeler. why not? miss murret. because he wasn't friendly. he would be liked by a certain type of person and hated by other types. mr. liebeler. well, that is the thing i am trying to bring out, and it is a difficult thing to come at, and i wish you would tell me what you think about this, how this strikes you, because it is difficult to frame a question with regard to it. we all know that sometimes people respond differently to different human beings, since each person is different and may have an entirely different response to the same thing many times. according to some of the information we have lee was not liked by all kinds of people, and as you indicated, you did like him, but you didn't think lee would be liked by people generally. i wish you would just tell us really what you think about this, and why. miss murret. well, because of his manner--i think people thought that he thought he was somebody, you know, and they wanted to knock him down a peg. and his entire presentation, i mean his walk--he was very erect--he minded his own business, and i don't think he liked petty gossip and things like that, and, of course, those people are varied in mind, and it would take a perverted mind, if he did this (assassination). anyway, just like the way in the army; they said that the ones who came up through the ranks used to lead the college graduates, and so forth, a dog's life, because they had a certain manner about them, you know, where they just automatically thought they knew more just because they had a degree. lee didn't have a degree or anything like that, but i think he was much more intelligent than the grades obviously indicated, although, as i said, i never really discussed anything with him. my theory of it was that he was intelligent, and so that type of person is usually disliked by this other group. and i don't know if that--that is as clear as mud, i guess, or actually he stayed with a certain class because his finances only allowed him to be with that particular group, probably, and he didn't like them. mr. liebeler. and you thought that was very much of a problem? miss murret. right; and even though he didn't have any money, he was a different type child, you know. i mean, like i am saying, he was not a rough type of child, or anything like that, since certainly on exchange alley he had a lot of opportunity to deviate from the right path, you know. but he never went into any of those barrooms or pool halls, or anything like that, you know. i guess, the other ones, he just didn't have the money to keep up with, but his mother reared him to be like that. and i guess he could live within himself, because he trained himself like that. i mean he never played with the other kids, and when he came home from school he read, and whether he was always reading this stuff, i don't know, but, anyway, he read everything. mr. liebeler. did you ever have any knowledge or had you heard that he was reading anything on marxism or communism? miss murret. i don't know anything about that unless--anyhow, he was trained, and he would read encyclopedias like somebody else would read a novel, and that is how he was trained. mr. liebeler. and you think now, with the information that you have, both from reading newspapers and also coupled with the knowledge of lee oswald, do you think lee oswald actually did kill the president? miss murret. all the evidence points to him, but he just never struck me as capable of that particular act. i never thought he would be--i never thought he was that maladjusted to want to prove to the world that he could commit such an act for any personal gratification, unless, as i am saying, somebody else was with him. but then, i don't think he was--well, he was such a quiet type, that probably nobody else could ever get through to him. mr. liebeler. did this impression that you have of lee change any when you heard he had been involved in this street fracas in connection with the fair play for cuba pamphlets that he was giving out, leaflets, and had some difficulty out in the street? miss murret. well, then, after that, i said, this kid--well, i just thought he was probably harmless, and just then i said, well, he is just doing this because why would he go marching, exposed all over canal street, and he voluntarily goes to be interviewed. so, i mean, that type, i probably thought he was harmless. and he was just shooting his mouth off. i mean, he didn't deny anything---- mr. liebeler. and that didn't seem inconsistent with the proposition that he was a loner, and it doesn't, really, but it didn't seem inconsistent to you? miss murret. i don't understand what you mean. mr. liebeler. you said the fellow was pretty quiet? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. and he stayed pretty much to himself? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. and then here you find him in the street handing out leaflets in connection with fair play for cuba committee, and did you hear that he was a member of the fair play for cuba committee here in new orleans? miss murret. no; he said that after on television, or all of that came out after. he must have been interviewed by wdsu shortly thereafter; however---- mr. liebeler. you don't know? miss murret. i don't know whether they showed that the first time, and they reran all of that after the assassination, but, you know, it was because my family had told me--well, the policeman had told my sister, well, that a lot of these people do that around here, and it is not against the law, just the fact that they are disturbing the peace. i mean these are just boys--that's what he said, "they are just boys, and i handle a lot of them like that." and then after i saw it on television, he didn't deny anything, and he said out and out that he was a marxist. mr. liebeler. my question is basically, did this surprise you, based on the past experiences that you had with him? and did it surprise you that all of a sudden he was in the street handing out leaflets? miss murret. yes; it did, because he didn't say anything, but then, after something happens, then you start formulating your opinions, of course. but i mean he seemed to be perfectly content, and particularly after he met marina. but then in other theories that were expounded, that perhaps because he was turned down by russia and then turned down by fidel, that perhaps he wanted to show them that he could commit such a great act without the help of any others, and still they didn't want him to work for them, you know---- mr. liebeler. this is the theory that you have thought of since the assassination? miss murret. i beg your pardon? mr. liebeler. this is a theory that you have thought up since the assassination? miss murret. well, because everybody yells--it just didn't strike me, so if there was any reason, that just seemed to be the most logical one. but then, on the other hand, and i know now that i am looking back on all this, and i don't think that khrushchev really turned him down at first, and then let him have access to all of russia, you know. i don't think he was just turned down immediately, like that, and then being allowed to work in the factories, and go from one city to the other. mr. liebeler. did lee ever indicate to you that he didn't receive the kind of treatment that he expected to receive when he went to russia? miss murret. nothing. i didn't press him on that, because i figured even if somebody didn't like it, that they, after they had done such a thing, they wouldn't probably want to come back and just, you know, do nothing but knock it. he wouldn't anyway, since everybody was so horrified that he left, that he, you know, that he wouldn't admit that big of a mistake. i don't think he could have realized that, because, i mean, as i am saying, he liked to do what he wanted to do. and as an individual he never did really seek company. but then, no communist lives like the communists, anyway--they live like capitalists, and just preach the doctrine. mr. liebeler. i think you indicated in response to my question as to whether or not you thought that lee had done it, that it all looks very much that way and that the evidence points that way, but what do you believe? do you believe he did it? miss murret. on circumstantial evidence, but i don't--there have been so many conflicting reports, you know, as to two guns, and one person supplying the telescope, and another stating that that telescope had already been mounted; so, if there were, i--it could have been more than one shot actually, or i mean shot from more than one place. mr. liebeler. did you ever see lee in possession of a weapon of any kind when he was here in new orleans? miss murret. no. mr. liebeler. did you see any rifle in his apartment? miss murret. no. mr. liebeler. did you ever mention that he had a rifle? miss murret. no. mr. liebeler. can you think of anything else that you can remember about lee that i didn't ask you about that you think the commission should know? if you can, i would like to have you put it in the record. miss murret. i don't know of any. mr. liebeler. were you interviewed by the fbi? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. how many times? miss murret. once. my mother and i at the same time---- mr. liebeler. can you tell me how many times, up at your house, you were interviewed either by yourself or when your mother was there? miss murret. i think the fbi was there twice primarily for my mother, and i talked to one of the secret service men once myself. my mother was there, i mean, but he was talking to me. mr. liebeler. to the best of your recollection that is all, the only time that either the secret service or the fbi have been in touch with you? miss murret. yes. mr. liebeler. if you can't think of anything else that you want to add at this point, i don't have any other questions. i would like to thank you very much for the cooperation that you have given to us. i want to express on behalf of the commission our thanks for coming here and being as cooperative as you have been. testimony of charles murret the testimony of charles murret was taken on april , , at the old civil courts building, royal and conti streets, new orleans, la., by mr. albert e. jenner, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. charles murret, french street, new orleans, after first being duly sworn testified as follows: mr. jenner. you are charles murret, is that right? mr. murret. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and you live at french street in new orleans, is that right? mr. murret. yes, sir. mr. jenner. mr. murret, mr. rankin, general counsel of the commission, transmitted to mrs. lillian murret, who is your wife, a letter in which he enclosed senate joint resolution , authorizing the creation of a commission to investigate the assassination of president john fitzgerald kennedy; executive order no. of president lyndon b. johnson, appointing that commission and fixing its powers and duties, and a copy of the rules and regulations under which we take testimony before the commission and also by way of deposition, such as this one. did she receive those? mr. murret. yes; she did. mr. jenner. and did you see them, and read them? mr. murret. yes; i did. mr. jenner. you did read them? mr. murret. yes. mr. jenner. i am albert e. jenner, jr., member of the legal staff of the commission, and the commission is now performing its duties of making inquiries of the various people such as you, who, during their lifetime, came into contact, in the ordinary course of their lives, with various people who are part of this ball of wax. we are looking into the background of lee harvey oswald in an attempt to determine if possible the motive for this tragic event which occurred november , , which of course was the assassination of the president. in that connection, we would like to ask you a few questions about what you know, if anything, in that regard. mr. murret. yes, sir. mr. jenner. first, do you have a nickname? mr. murret. yes. mr. jenner. what is that nickname? mr. murret. dutz. mr. jenner. dutz? mr. murret. yes. mr. jenner. how do you spell that? mr. murret. d-u-t-z. that's a name that my uncle gave me years ago and it caught on, with me being in the fight game and all, and it just stuck with me. mr. jenner. you say your uncle gave you that nickname? mr. murret. yes; he was the one that gave me that name, and it stuck. mr. jenner. did you do much prizefighting? mr. murret. no; oh, i had a couple of bouts, but i never did make a career of it, or anything. mr. jenner. how old a man are you? mr. murret. ; just made . mr. jenner. you were born and raised in louisiana? mr. murret. yes; in new orleans. mr. jenner. and your family were all born americans? mr. murret. right. mr. jenner. by the way, you have a fine family. mr. murret. thank you very much. mr. jenner. your wife and your children are very proud of you, by the way. mr. murret. thank you. mr. jenner. how many children do you have, four or five? mr. murret. five. mr. jenner. you have one who is studying for the priesthood, is that right? mr. murret. that's correct. mr. jenner. and he's over in mobile studying, is that right? mr. murret. that's right. mr. jenner. he finished law school before he entered this institute in mobile, is that right? mr. murret. yes. he enrolled in the service. he had this -a hanging over him, so he just went in and put in his years, and came back, and to my surprise he never took a leave, but he went on back to college, and he got all kinds of honors in college, and then he decided to be a priest and enrolled with the jesuits over at mobile. mr. jenner. and you have another son who is, i believe, with the squibb co., is that right? mr. murret. yes; that's john. he's with squibb & co. now. mr. jenner. and i understand that he is also a pretty good baseball player, is that right? mr. murret. oh, yes. mr. jenner. you have three boys and two girls, is that right? mr. murret. yes; three boys and two girls. mr. jenner. were all three boys interested in athletics? mr. murret. well, yes. mr. jenner. all interested in baseball? mr. murret. yes. mr. jenner. had baseball equipment, like gloves and things? mr. murret. yes. mr. jenner. what are your boys, right handed or left handed? mr. murret. they are all right handed. mr. jenner. did they ever loan their equipment, particularly gloves, to lee oswald? mr. murret. not to my knowledge. mr. jenner. not that you know of? mr. murret. that's right. mr. jenner. well, i think it's no secret that mrs. murret, your wife, did lend one of their gloves to lee harvey oswald one time to play ball when he was in high school; did you know that? mr. murret. well, she could have. mr. jenner. she could have, and you wouldn't have known about it? mr. murret. that's right. mr. jenner. but all of those gloves would have been gloves for boys who are right handers then, isn't that right, since all three of your boys are right handed? mr. murret. yes, that's right. they are all right handers. mr. jenner. then the gloves were for the left hand, is that correct? mr. murret. yes, that's correct, the left hand. mr. jenner. do you know marguerite oswald? mr. murret. oh, yes, i know her. i never could get along with her. mr. jenner. you couldn't get along with her? mr. murret. no; she was quite a bit younger than my wife. mr. jenner. you're talking about lillian murret, your wife, and marguerite's sister, now, is that right? mr. murret. yes. mr. jenner. do you know a man by the name of john pic, or ed pic? mr. murret. ed is all i knew him by. mr. jenner. did you see him once in a while? mr. murret. oh, i saw him just by chance. mr. jenner. but you did see him once in a while over the years, is that right? mr. murret. oh, yes and i still do, as a matter of fact, but not very often. he has been with t. smith, stevedores, for many, many years. mr. jenner. does he have a responsible position with t. smith? mr. murret. oh, i imagine, because he has been there for so many years. mr. jenner. was he ever a stevedore? mr. murret. i think he has just been an office man, to my knowledge, but his firm is in that line of business. mr. jenner. do you remember his marriage to marguerite claverie? mr. murret. well, i didn't attend the wedding. mr. jenner. but you knew they were married? mr. murret. oh, yes. mr. jenner. and do you know that some difficulty arose eventually in that marriage? mr. murret. yes. mr. jenner. they didn't get along? mr. murret. that's right. mr. jenner. and they separated? mr. murret. yes. mr. jenner. since your wife has given us most of that information, we will just skip some of that, but that marriage did end in divorce, is that right? mr. murret. yes, it did. mr. jenner. they had one child, john edward pic, is that right? mr. murret. yes. mr. jenner. did you see them once in a while during this period? mr. murret. yes; they lived close in the neighborhood, so i would see them pretty often. mr. jenner. do you remember her divorce from john pic and subsequent marriage to a man by the name of lee oswald? mr. murret. yes. mr. jenner. what business was he in? mr. murret. the insurance business. mr. jenner. was he an insurance collector? mr. murret. yes, sir. mr. jenner. he was not an insurance salesman? mr. murret. no, he was a collector. he collected premiums for his company. mr. jenner. you do remember that marguerite married lee oswald, and a couple of children were born of that marriage, is that right? mr. murret. yes, sir. mr. jenner. robert lee and lee harvey, is that right? mr. murret. yes. mr. jenner. do you remember the birth of lee in ? mr. murret. yes. mr. jenner. do you recall when they lived on alvar street? mr. murret. alvar? yes. mr. jenner. you do remember that? mr. murret. yes; i think that's where they were living when he died. mr. jenner. yes; our records show that he died in august , and lee was born a couple of months after he died; do you remember that? mr. murret. yes; i don't know the exact month, but i remember it was right after he died. mr. jenner. what did she do after her husband died, after she had the child? did she go to work, or what? mr. murret. i couldn't swear to that. i don't know if she inherited anything from the insurance, from lee dying, or not. it wasn't any of my business, so i didn't ask about that. mr. jenner. you mind your own business? mr. murret. that's right; that's what i did then, too. mr. jenner. do you recall her living in and around new orleans then, after mr. oswald died? mr. murret. well, yes; i imagine so, but then she moved to texas, and i think she married this man over there sometime after that, by the name of ekdahl, or something like that. it's a hard name to pronounce. mr. jenner. did you ever meet mr. ekdahl? mr. murret. no; never in my life. mr. jenner. there has been some evidence in these depositions about a picnic that was held over at covington, la., which was attended by marguerite and her three children and mr. ekdahl; do you remember that? mr. murret. no. mr. jenner. you don't know anything about that? mr. murret. no, sir. mr. jenner. what kind of a boy was lee harvey oswald? mr. murret. well, i'll tell you: i didn't take that much interest in him. i couldn't tell you anything about that, because i didn't pay attention to all that. i do think he was a loud kid, you know what i mean; he was always raising his voice when he wanted something from his mother, i know that, but i think a lot of times he was just the opposite. he liked to read, and he stuck by himself pretty much in the apartment the way i understand it. mr. jenner. did you and marguerite get along all right? mr. murret. not too well. mr. jenner. not too well? mr. murret. no. mr. jenner. what was the reason for that? mr. murret. well, it was due to her disposition, more or less. she always thought she was right, and she would get aggravated at anybody that disagreed with her, and things like that. mr. jenner. but you avoided open controversy with her, is that correct? mr. murret. oh, yes; i didn't want to run head-on into anything like that. for that reason i always did pretend like everything was all right, but i never did think a house was big enough for two families, to that extent. mr. jenner. did there come a time then when they left new orleans? mr. murret. yes. mr. jenner. where did they go? mr. murret. i don't know. mr. jenner. to texas? mr. murret. i imagine so, but i don't know where they went. mr. jenner. but they did leave your house? mr. murret. yes; they sure did. mr. jenner. and you didn't hear from them for a while, is that right? mr. murret. well, my wife might have heard from them, and she might even have told me, but i didn't take any interest in that after they left. mr. jenner. you just didn't follow that? mr. murret. no. mr. jenner. did there come a time, along in , in the winter of , about january or something like that, that they returned to new orleans? do you remember that? mr. murret. i don't remember what year it was, but they came back to new orleans. mr. jenner. they did come back to new orleans; you remember that? mr. murret. yes, sir. mr. jenner. lee was a young man then--a teenager, is that correct, sir? mr. murret. that's right. mr. jenner. and , years old? mr. murret. about that, i guess. mr. jenner. do you remember him being about that age when they returned to new orleans? mr. murret. yes. mr. jenner. and he started high school here, i believe, is that right, or do you know? mr. murret. yes; i think so. i mean, i can't fix the year and all those details, but they did come back here, and he went to high school. mr. jenner. what do you remember about him as to his personality when he returned? mr. murret. well, couldn't remember the first one, to compare it to the second time. i mean, i couldn't say he actually changed in any certain way, because i couldn't remember how he was the first time. mr. jenner. they lived with you for awhile when they returned to new orleans, didn't they? mr. murret. i don't remember. mr. jenner. you don't remember that? mr. murret. no. mr. jenner. do you remember, or were you conscious of the fact, that they were living in new york city before they returned to new orleans on that occasion? mr. murret. well, i couldn't swear to that, but judging from what the wife said, i mean, that's probably what happened. she had told me that they were in new york; i remember that. mr. jenner. do you remember when they returned here from new york that they lived over on st. mary street, or exchange alley? mr. murret. i remember exchange alley. i remember day in particular, and i think it was on carnival, or somewhere in the carnival season. i don't know the date any more. they went back to texas from there. mr. jenner. at any rate you remember that they left and went to texas, right? mr. murret. let me put it this way. i think they did, but i lost contact with them. mr. jenner. but they did leave new orleans again, after living at exchange alley, didn't they? mr. murret. yes; they went back to texas. do you mean the second time? mr. jenner. yes. do you remember that? mr. murret. yes; i recall my wife telling me that--that they had moved back to texas, but i don't know the date or anything like that. mr. jenner. when was the next time that you saw either of them? mr. murret. well, the next time was when he came to new orleans, and stayed at our house. that was just a year ago in may, i think. i don't remember what month, but it was about that. mr. jenner. about a year ago or in that neighborhood? mr. murret. yes. that's when lee came to town, and wanted to look for an apartment, and said he was going to get a job, and that he would like to stay with us until he found something. mr. jenner. all right; now, tell us about that. mr. murret. well, when i walked in the house, he was standing in the kitchen. mr. jenner. that was after you came home from work? mr. murret. that's right. mr. jenner. you were surprised to see him? mr. murret. yes; that's right. i was surprised all right. mr. jenner. all right. what happened then? mr. murret. my wife said, "do you recognize who this is?" and i said, "yes," and i said, "it looks like he has grown up or something." of course, he looked older, but he hadn't changed too much in appearance, i don't think. mr. jenner. of course, this was lee oswald? mr. murret. yes. mr. jenner. the same boy, but you say he had grown up a little more, is that right? mr. murret. that's right. mr. jenner. physically, at least? mr. murret. yes, sir. mr. jenner. had you heard anything about him in the meantime? mr. murret. no. mr. jenner. not a thing? mr. murret. no. mr. jenner. what did he tell you on that occasion? mr. murret. what did he tell me? mr. jenner. yes; didn't you help him put some stuff in your garage? didn't you go to the bus station and get his luggage and things and bring them to the house? mr. murret. did i help him? mr. jenner. yes. mr. murret. i don't remember that. i don't remember helping him with any luggage, not that day. mr. jenner. the next day? mr. murret. no; i don't believe it was even that next day. it was a couple of days afterward. mr. jenner. all right; it is your recollection that it was a couple of days later, is that right? mr. murret. yes. mr. jenner. did you take him with you to pick up his luggage at the bus station? mr. murret. no; i don't remember that. mr. jenner. you don't remember that? mr. murret. no; i don't. mr. jenner. are you sure now? mr. murret. i don't remember. mr. jenner. would it be possible that you did that, but you just don't remember it? mr. murret. you mean gone to the bus station with him? mr. jenner. yes; and picked up his luggage for him, and perhaps you don't recall it at this time? mr. murret. i might have. i just don't remember. mr. jenner. now, tell me what you recall his luggage consisted of at that time? mr. murret. well, i'll tell you; it might have been a duffelbag, or something; i'm not sure of that. i don't remember what all it was. mr. jenner. did he have a marine duffelbag, like soldiers use--that sort of thing? mr. murret. well, it was a bag; i guess it was a duffelbag. mr. jenner. did it have a name on it? mr. murret. i didn't see any. mr. jenner. do you remember going in your car to the bus station to get his luggage? mr. murret. yes; i remember doing that. mr. jenner. and you drove? mr. murret. yes; i drove. mr. jenner. could lee drive a car, to your knowledge? mr. murret. not to my knowledge. mr. jenner. did he ever drive a car, to your knowledge? mr. murret. no. mr. jenner. did you ever see him driving an automobile? mr. murret. no. mr. jenner. how many duffelbags were there? mr. murret. i think there were two of them. mr. jenner. what else did he have? mr. murret. that's all that i know of. mr. jenner. did he have any cardboard boxes? mr. murret. not that i know of. mr. jenner. did he have any suitcases? mr. murret. not that i saw; i don't think he had any suitcases. mr. jenner. well, you put this luggage in your car, didn't you? mr. murret. no; i didn't. mr. jenner. did he do that? mr. murret. yes; he put them in my car. mr. jenner. did you see him doing that? mr. murret. yes; i saw him. mr. jenner. did you stay close to the locker in which this luggage was contained? mr. murret. no; i don't believe i did. i sat at the wheel of the car. i asked him if he wanted a lift, but he said no, but i know he had two duffelbags at least. i sat at the wheel of the car, to my knowledge. mr. jenner. all right; you reached home, right? mr. murret. yes. mr. jenner. was the car unpacked then? mr. murret. yes; by lee. mr. jenner. lee did the unpacking? mr. murret. yes; he didn't want any help, so i didn't help him. mr. jenner. what was your impression of lee then, after he had appeared at your house after all those years? mr. murret. well, i don't know, but i just couldn't warm up to him, but he said he wanted to find a job and get an apartment and then send for his wife in texas, so i wasn't going to stand in his way. mr. jenner. did he get an apartment? mr. murret. yes. mr. jenner. where was that? mr. murret. oh, that was out on magazine street, but as far as the number is concerned, i don't know it. mr. jenner. do you remember lee's wife? mr. murret. yes. mr. jenner. marina? mr. murret. yes. mr. jenner. when he got the job, did he call his wife on the phone and have her come over? mr. murret. yes. mr. jenner. and did she come over with a mrs. paine? mr. murret. yes; they drove on into new orleans, and i met them, and i told the lady, i said, "i'm glad to have met you," but if she would walk in this door now, i wouldn't recognize her. mr. jenner. by the lady, do you mean mrs. paine? mr. murret. that's right. mr. jenner. all right; what happened after marina and mrs. paine arrived? mr. murret. well, after we greeted them and everything, we decided to go up to the apartment on magazine, and i had lee ride with me, i think, and the others rode in the station wagon behind us. mr. jenner. lee rode with you? mr. murret. yes. mr. jenner. was the station wagon pretty packed with the luggage and everything? mr. murret. yes; it was pretty loaded, because mrs. paine had her two children with her. mr. jenner. while they were living on magazine street, did they come and visit you or your family at your home? mr. murret. well, if they did, it was while i wasn't there. they must have come in the daytime. mr. jenner. now, tell me about the trip over to mobile; who went over? mr. murret. my daughter joyce, her two children, and marina and the baby, and lee. mr. jenner. how did this come about? mr. murret. well, her brother being in the seminary, he heard that lee was here and he wanted to see him. he wondered if we could bring lee up there to visit him, because he said he would like to see him. mr. jenner. then it wasn't at lee's request that this trip was made over to mobile? mr. murret. oh, no. mr. jenner. did you drive them over? mr. murret. that's right. mr. jenner. how long were you there? mr. murret. oh, just from saturday morning to sunday evening. mr. jenner. did lee give some kind of an address to the students over there? mr. murret. yes; but it was just for the faculty and the school over there. mr. jenner. just for the boys and the faculty at the school? mr. murret. yes. mr. jenner. were you there? mr. murret. i was there--not to listen to the speech now, but we were on the grounds. mr. jenner. but you didn't listen to the talk lee gave at all? mr. murret. no. mr. jenner. how about marina? mr. murret. no; marina and my wife--none of us went in. mr. jenner. so you returned to new orleans the next day, is that right? mr. murret. yes; that's right. mr. jenner. did you pay all the expenses of that trip? mr. murret. yes; i did. mr. jenner. was lee oswald making very much money at that time? mr. murret. i don't remember that. i didn't ask him that, how much he was making. mr. jenner. what was your impression? mr. murret. my impression was that he didn't have money to pay for the trip or the motel or anything. mr. jenner. you paid it? mr. murret. yes. mr. jenner. did you ever see any communistic literature or leaflets or pamphlets relating to communism, or anything like that that could be termed subversive in any sense of the word, in lee oswald's apartment? mr. murret. well, i saw a picture in his apartment, a picture of castro, on the mantel there. mr. jenner. on the mantel? mr. murret. yes; it was there after he was arrested. mr. jenner. last summer? mr. murret. yes. mr. jenner. in august it was there? mr. murret. yes. mr. jenner. did you ever see lee in a television interview here? mr. murret. well, no; but i heard him over the radio. mr. jenner. the radio? mr. murret. yes. mr. jenner. tell me about that. mr. murret. well, he called up my wife and told her that he was going to be on television, so we turned on the television, but he was on the radio instead. mr. jenner. you did hear him on the radio; did you listen to the program? mr. murret. yes, sir; not all of it, but enough of it. mr. jenner. mr. murret, did you ever try to teach lee how to drive an automobile? mr. murret. no; i didn't try to teach him that, but i tried to teach him to talk american to his little child. mr. jenner. what was your discussion with him on that? mr. murret. there was no discussion. i just told him, i said, "why don't you teach your child how to speak the english language?" but he didn't give me an answer to that. mr. jenner. did you ever have a discussion with him as to why he left russia? mr. murret. no. mr. jenner. did you ever have any discussion with him as to his political views in connection with russia, as to what he thought of russia? mr. murret. no, i didn't. to tell you the truth, after he defected to russia and went there to live and everything, i just let it go out the window. i figured, "what's the use?" and then after he came back here and got into this radio thing about castro, and communism, and these leaflets and all, i didn't worry myself any more about him. my main concern was keeping peace in the family and seeing that he didn't disrupt anything around there. mr. jenner. in other words, you sort of gave up on him? mr. murret. i sure did, but now, marina, i asked her how she liked america, and her face broke out in a big smile, like a fresh bloom, and she said, "i like america." mr. jenner. now, mr. murret, did anything occur that i haven't asked you about that you think might be helpful to the commission in its investigation of all the circumstances and facts surrounding this matter? mr. murret. no. mr. jenner. now, you have the privilege of reading and signing your deposition, or you can waive that privilege and let the reporter transcribe your testimony, and it will be forwarded to washington. what do you prefer to do in that respect? mr. murret. i will waive it. mr. jenner. you wish to waive the reading and signing of your deposition? mr. murret. yes, sir; that's right. mr. jenner. all right, thank you for coming in, mr. murret; that's all the questions i have. mr. murret. he was a hard one to get to know. you just couldn't get to know him at all, and i don't think he had much consideration for anyone, especially for his mother. mr. jenner. you arrived at that opinion over the period of time that you had contact with him? mr. murret. yes; and the thing that was so odd to me was that he seemed to always be trying to prove himself, that he was so independent. for example, he wouldn't let me help him with the luggage, and things like that. he wanted to do it all himself. mr. jenner. so you let him do it by himself, right? mr. murret. absolutely. it didn't matter to me, if he wanted to go ahead and do it that way. i just, you know, lost all interest in him after all these things happened. you just couldn't figure him out. testimony of john m. murret the testimony of john m. murret was taken on april - , , at the old civil courts building, royal and conti streets, new orleans, la., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. john m. murret, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: mr. liebeler. my name is wesley j. liebeler. i am a member of the legal staff of the president's commission investigating the assassination of president kennedy. staff members have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the commission pursuant to authority granted to the commission by executive order no. , dated november , , and joint resolution of congress no. . i want to give you a copy of the executive order and the joint resolution to which i have just referred, and also a copy of the rules of procedure adopted by the commission governing the taking of testimony of witnesses. (producing documents and handing to witness.) those rules provide that technically a witness is entitled to days' notice before he is required to testify before the commission or to give testimony to a staff member. i know that you didn't get days' notice. witnesses are entitled to waive the notice requirement, and i hope and assume that you will be willing to do that since you are here, and we will go right ahead with the testimony. are you willing to waive the days' notice? mr. murret. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. thank you. we want to inquire of you briefly this morning concerning your contact with lee oswald while he was here in new orleans during the summer of . before we get into the details of that, however, will you state your full name for the record. mr. murret. my full name is john martial murret. mr. liebeler. where do you live? mr. murret. louis xiv street, new orleans, la. mr. liebeler. are you employed? mr. murret. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. by whom? mr. murret. e. r. squibb and sons. mr. liebeler. how long have you worked for them? mr. murret. approximately years. mr. liebeler. what do you do for them? mr. murret. i am a pharmaceutical sales representative. mr. liebeler. am i correct in understanding that you are lee harvey oswald's cousin? mr. murret. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. you are a brother to marilyn murret and the son of mr. and mrs. charles ferdinand murret? mr. murret. yes. mr. liebeler. mr. charles murret is also known as dutz murret, is he not, d-u-t-z? mr. murret. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. were you born here in new orleans? mr. murret. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. and you obtained your primary and secondary education here in the new orleans school system? mr. murret. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. where did you go to school? mr. murret. holy rosary primary and st. aloysius high school and st. louis university and loyola university. mr. liebeler. do you hold a degree from loyola university? mr. murret. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. a bachelor's degree? mr. murret. a bachelor's degree. mr. liebeler. what did you major in? mr. murret. secondary education, minor in chemistry. mr. liebeler. did you have occasion to see lee oswald during the summer of ? mr. murret. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. would you tell us about that, starting with the first time you saw him. tell us the circumstances under which you met him, the conversations that you had. tell us about the various times that you did see him during the summer of , what you did during that period of time, as far as oswald is concerned. mr. murret. well, actually there was not too much contact that i did have with him. since i did live in the house and did---- mr. liebeler. at french street? mr. murret. french street. the first contact i think i had with him, we ordinarily--sometimes when i am working in that particular neighborhood, i would come home for lunch, and he was there at this particular occasion with his little bag and so forth. mr. liebeler. now can you tell me approximately when that was? mr. murret. tell you the truth, i can't recall, but as you mentioned, you know, during the summer. evidently it was during the summer. i am not too sure. mr. liebeler. would it have been some time in may perhaps of , or can't you---- mr. murret. i can't recall. i could have recalled then, but i am kind of confused now on it. mr. liebeler. so you came home to lunch on this particular day and oswald was there? mr. murret. he was gone to the grocery. when he came back, that is when, you know, well, like my mother said, she said, "guess who was here," and i think i guessed it, you know, and he went to the grocery to get a loaf of bread, i think it was, and he just came back. but there was no particular other contact that i could say i had with him other than--you know, he talking about maybe russia or something, but mostly, you know, the food and drink and, you know, different environments that they have. that is the only thing i can say about it. mr. liebeler. you say that he did talk about his time in russia, and that basically it was in terms of the kind of living conditions that they had and the way the people live their lives in russia? mr. murret. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. did he indicate to you in any way that he had received better treatment while he was in russia than other russians, or did you gain an impression about that? mr. murret. no, i couldn't you know, actually say that, but--in fact, i couldn't, you know. mr. liebeler. did he tell you at all why he went to russia in the first place? mr. murret. no. in fact, i didn't inquire or feel that it was any of my particular business why he did, but the only thing i can say, he just went. i just didn't want to pry into his business, you know, or anything like that. mr. liebeler. did he tell you anything about his experiences in russia, other than in general terms as far as living conditions and that sort of thing is concerned? mr. murret. well, his experience working in the factories where he had gotten work. other than that--that is the only particular. mr. liebeler. did he tell you what kind of a factory he worked in? mr. murret. i really don't recall if it was a photographic factory or something, you know, similar. mr. liebeler. did he tell you that he was working in the field of photography? mr. murret. well, i know he was trying to acquire positions here in the city of new orleans either as a photographer or working in a photographic shop or as a draftsman. i had known that. mr. liebeler. did he mention anything about any hunting activities that he might have engaged in while he was in the soviet union? mr. murret. in the soviet union? mr. liebeler. yes. mr. murret. no, sir. mr. liebeler. did he tell you why he decided to come back to the united states? mr. murret. no, not directly. maybe my mother tried to get it out of him, but he just said he was back, and he got married and so forth and wanted to come back to the states. mr. liebeler. he didn't go into very much detail as far as his experience in russia? is that correct? mr. murret. that is correct. mr. liebeler. as i understand it, he stayed at the house at french street for about a week? is that right? mr. murret. actually stayed there? i couldn't recall offhand, you know, how long he stayed there, even though, you know, i lived there, but i can't recall whether it was a week, weeks, weeks, or what it might be. mr. liebeler. during this time, he was looking for a job? mr. murret. yes, sir; he was. mr. liebeler. do you know whether he found one? mr. murret. well, it was kind of hard for him, you know, finding a job. i do know that he did find a job. he was working. it was indicated that he did work for a coffee factory on tchoupitoulas or magazine street or some place around there. mr. liebeler. did he tell you that he was having trouble finding a job? mr. murret. well, no. in fact, i was interested in actually him finding a job, to be truthful, and i would have thought, personally, you know, even the way he was dressed, it was kind of difficult for him finding a job the way his appearance looked, you know, when he first came back, with no clothes and so forth looking for a job. it was sort of impossible for him to get a job. there is no doubt about it. mr. liebeler. he didn't make too good an appearance? mr. murret. no, sir; he could have, but he just didn't have the clothes, evidently the money, for him to make the appearance. that is all. mr. liebeler. now did you ever go over to the apartment that oswald apparently rented on magazine street? mr. murret. i knew where he lived. in fact, possibly i had drove marina and lee to the apartment, but i have never stepped out of the car or actually been in front of the particular home or inside the home. mr. liebeler. the commission has some information to the effect that you tried to teach oswald how to drive a car. is that correct? mr. murret. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. would you tell us about that. mr. murret. well, like i say, he was always home, you know, on french street looking at tv or whatever it may be. it just so happened sometimes i work late, come home maybe : or o'clock, and i didn't have any time during the day to teach him, and this one particular night--i had told him, you know, i was going to take him out, that he should learn how to drive and so forth, that it may be helpful to him on getting a job. mr. liebeler. he told you that he didn't know how to drive a car? mr. murret. i can't directly say, you know, that he did, but the impression was--i could actually say that he did not know how to drive a car before he got behind the wheel. i actually had to tell him how to start the car and so forth, what to do on it. mr. liebeler. now on this particular night that you took him out in the car, would you tell us how he handled the car and just what you and he did, where you drove the car, how you practiced with it. mr. murret. well, this was at nighttime, as i was saying. i forget--i guess it was after supper. and i drove him to city park, which is the city park here in new orleans. it was by the golf driving range where they have these little parking partitions, yellow lines for parking places for the golfers, and i had brought him here. mr. liebeler. you had driven the car from your house on french street over to the parking lot in the park? mr. murret. yes, sir; and i was actually trying to teach him how to back up. it was a pushbutton car, a dodge, a dodge, a rather big car, no power steering or anything, and i was just trying to tell him, you know, how to go into the parking lanes and also backing into the parking lanes, and he was awkward, i mean as far as learning is concerned. you could see that he had never driven a car before. that is my impression of this. so after--we stayed there awhile and then i let him drive the car, you know, through the park and back home again. mr. liebeler. you let him drive the car back to the house on french street? mr. murret. yes, sir; it was through the park. there was no traffic or anything. nobody was in the park. mr. liebeler. it was just a drive through the park? mr. murret. yes. mr. liebeler. how did he seem to handle the car at that time? mr. murret. well, i had to stay next to him, tell you the truth. evidently he could handle the car--i mean just steering--because it was just regular gas and brake. that is all it is, you know. there is nothing to that. but in traffic, i really couldn't say how he could have handled it, you know, the car. mr. liebeler. did you go out with him again after that with the car? mr. murret. no; that was the only time. mr. liebeler. did you ever let him take the car by himself? mr. murret. no, sir. mr. liebeler. do you know whether he ever took your car by himself without your permission? mr. murret. no, sir; i always had the car working. mr. liebeler. did he have access to any other automobiles while he was here in new orleans, as far as you know? mr. murret. to my knowledge, no; not of my family's possessions. mr. liebeler. you have a brother who is studying to be a jesuit priest---- mr. murret. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. in mobile, ala., do you not? mr. murret. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. did there come a time in the summer of when lee oswald went to mobile, ala.? mr. murret. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. did you go along? mr. murret. i was supposed to. i was in houston at the time, we had a sales meeting in houston, and i didn't make the trip. mr. liebeler. you did not go? mr. murret. no, sir; i did not go. mr. liebeler. who all went on that trip? do you know? mr. murret. as i recall, it must have been my mother and father and marilyn, and that is it, and lee and marina and the baby. mr. liebeler. have you talked with your brother, the jesuit student, since that time? mr. murret. i have; yes, sir. mr. liebeler. did he tell you about oswald's appearance at the seminary? mr. murret. no, sir. mr. liebeler. you never discussed that particular event? mr. murret. no, sir. mr. liebeler. did you talk about oswald at all? mr. murret. i did. in fact, the next time i had seen my brother was at my wedding. you see, he doesn't come in new orleans at all. and i had asked him what kind of talk he gave, because i was interested in what kind of talk he did give and what impression he made on the jesuits, and, like he said, you know, he didn't speak other than what the conditions were, you know, in russia, and how he lived and the food and drink and so forth, and i think the other boys were asking him questions or trying to ask him questions. he may be evading the questions, but other than that, that is the only connection i had with my brother, you know, just asking him about it. mr. liebeler. this was at your wedding? is that right? mr. murret. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. what was the date of that? mr. murret. that was october , . mr. liebeler. ? mr. murret. sixty-three, yes. mr. liebeler. did your brother indicate--did your brother, eugene, indicate his opinion of lee oswald to you? mr. murret. well, his mind was--as far as his thinking was concerned, there is no doubt but that he thought in the wrong direction. mr. liebeler. that is what your brother thought? mr. murret. that is what my brother thought; yes. mr. liebeler. your brother, of course, is studying to be a jesuit priest? mr. murret. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. did you ever talk to oswald about religion? mr. murret. no, sir. mr. liebeler. now other than the first time that you saw oswald when he was there at french street on that day when you came home for lunch---- mr. murret. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. and the contact that you had with him at french street until he moved out, did you have any other contact with oswald during the summer of ? mr. murret. no, sir; just only when, you know, he came to the house some sundays maybe to eat or something on that order. mr. liebeler. did you meet marina oswald? mr. murret. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. did you talk to her? mr. murret. not in clear english, but made signs and so forth, and i actually didn't want to, you know, get involved, but i actually couldn't speak to her, you know. mr. liebeler. did you form an opinion as to whether or not marina could speak english? mr. murret. no; i don't think she could, and i was amazed how fast that she did pick it up, you know, when she was on television and so forth. mr. liebeler. after the assassination---- mr. murret. yes. mr. liebeler. you observed a distinct and surprising improvement in her use of the english language, did you not? mr. murret. definitely. mr. liebeler. from the time that you saw her in new orleans here in the summer of until the time that she appeared on television after the assassination? mr. murret. yes. mr. liebeler. did you have occasion to observe lee oswald and marina together? mr. murret. around the television; yes. i think that is about the only time. mr. liebeler. did you form any opinion as to how they got along with each other? mr. murret. to me they got along pretty well, they got along pretty well. in fact, they had a television program on one day--i forget what it was, on a friday night--pertaining to a circus, and it was in russia, and they were pretty well enthused about it being it was russian, and it was the first time they had ever seen something like that. in fact, i think they had either the olympics or some sort of sporting event in russia at the time, and they were quite impressed, because it was the first time they had ever seen something like this, but other than that, it seemed like they got along pretty well. i didn't see anything out of the ordinary, i guess. mr. liebeler. there was never any indication of strain or hostility in their relationship, as far as you could tell? mr. murret. no, sir; not that i could see. mr. liebeler. did you ever discuss politics---- mr. murret. no, sir. mr. liebeler. with oswald at all? mr. murret. no. mr. liebeler. did you ever hear him mention president kennedy? mr. murret. no, sir. mr. liebeler. or governor connally? mr. murret. no, sir. mr. liebeler. did you form an opinion about oswald's general character from your observations and experience with him in ? mr. murret. in the summer of ? mr. liebeler. yes. mr. murret. actually, he probably didn't have any other choice of doing anything. it was kind of hard, i guess, for him to get along. like i say, his appearance in general--i mean, just by looking at him, he just didn't have the clothes or anything to do anything right. in other words, everything that he did was wrong if he did go look for a job and get turned down and so forth. it was kind of hard for him after a bit. someone would have helped him, but he didn't actually need any help. he wanted to do it on his own. you could have helped him, you know, but he just didn't want any help. he wouldn't ask for anything, i know that, he wouldn't ask for anything. mr. liebeler. he struck you as sort of an independent, proud sort of fellow? mr. murret. he was proud, there is no doubt about it. he was proud. mr. liebeler. did you think he was a fairly bright fellow, or did you form an opinion about his intelligence? mr. murret. he was bright and he impressed me--you know, bright in a different sense of the word. now whether he thought in the right direction, i really don't know, but he was--but he improved particularly, you know, from the younger years that i had known him. he had improved tremendously as far as intelligence is concerned and his vocabulary, and evidently he tried to impress people, you know, with it, but he was impressive, he was impressive. mr. liebeler. he seemed to speak well and was articulate? mr. murret. right, he was. he used words that an ordinary individual wouldn't use in conversation. mr. liebeler. did you know that he was arrested by the new orleans police department some time during the summer of in connection with some difficulties that he got into when he was distributing fair play for cuba committee literature? mr. murret. yes. mr. liebeler. when did you learn that? mr. murret. well, when it was in the paper or when it was on television. mr. liebeler. at the time? mr. murret. at the time. either that or my parents had told me. i don't recall. mr. liebeler. did you have anything to do with getting him out of jail? mr. murret. nothing at all. mr. liebeler. did you know that he was on a radio debate over at wdsu? mr. murret. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. did you hear him? mr. murret. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. i understand that oswald actually called the house out there and told you that he was going to be on the radio, did he not? mr. murret. right. he sure did. mr. liebeler. did you have any discussions with him or see him after the radio debate? mr. murret. if i did see him, i didn't discuss it, you know, with him. mr. liebeler. did you ever at any time discuss with him this fair play for cuba committee episode or his radio debate or anything in connection with those events? mr. murret. no, sir. mr. liebeler. do i understand that your sister was involved in the events that led to oswald's release from jail? is that correct? mr. murret. to my understanding, she was. mr. liebeler. did she tell you that? mr. murret. did she tell me that? that is my oldest sister. mr. liebeler. what is her name? mr. murret. joyce o'brien. mr. liebeler. where does she live? mr. murret. she lives in beaumont, tex. mr. liebeler. the question was: did she tell you that she had been involved in getting oswald out of jail? mr. murret. i heard something to the effect that while he was in jail he phoned the home. it just so happened my sister was there at the time, because she very seldom comes in, and naturally you want to, you know, see if we could get him out, and she is saying how did he get in there in the first place, and she didn't want to get him out after she heard what he did. mr. liebeler. she didn't want to get him out after she heard what he did? mr. murret. yes. mr. liebeler. did you know oswald as a younger boy? mr. murret. no; not closely. i can recollect, you know, when he was a small boy, but no particular dealings with him. he was too small to hold any conversation with him. mr. liebeler. do you have any recollection of what kind of a fellow he was when he was a kid? mr. murret. he was a nice kid. just by his pictures and so forth, he was real nice. to me he was harmful [sic]. mr. liebeler. what? mr. murret. harmful. mr. liebeler. harmful? mr. murret. harmless. mr. liebeler. how old are you, mr. murret? mr. murret. i am . mr. liebeler. twenty-nine? mr. murret. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. you are the youngest member of the murret family? is that right? mr. murret. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. did you ever know lee oswald's older brother, robert? mr. murret. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. were you closer to robert than you were to lee, would you say, or how much contact did you have with robert? mr. murret. well, i would say about the same. actually they weren't here in the city of new orleans, you know, long enough to get close to them. mr. liebeler. there was nothing that you knew about lee oswald's youth that was particularly noteworthy or outstanding or would draw your attention to him or would distinguish him from other boys of his age, that you can remember, was there? mr. murret. no, sir; i couldn't say. i didn't have that much contact. mr. liebeler. now looking back over the summer of , thinking about your contact with lee oswald, is there anything that you can think of that you did with him or any conversations that you had or anything of interest that occurred during that time that we haven't talked about? if you can think of anything else in that nature that we haven't mentioned, that you think would be helpful to the commission, we would like to have you tell us. mr. murret. well, the only thing i can think of; like i say, it just so happens that i was home all the time, but the telephone rang, you know, for him getting a job or some employment agencies calling up asking, you know, for him to contact the employment agencies because they had located him a job and so forth, and the only thing i can recollect is an employment agency calling me up one night, and couldn't get in contact with him, and i had to call the particular coffee plant the next day, you know, saying that the agency wants to see you, you know, right away, he has a job located for you--in photography i think it was. so i had called him, and that was about the end of that. mr. liebeler. you did call lee? mr. murret. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. did you reach him at the coffee plant? mr. murret. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. did he say anything when you told him that this employment agency was looking for him? mr. murret. no; i was just hoping that this was the job that he was looking for. other than that, that is all. mr. liebeler. do you remember the name of the employment agency? mr. murret. no, sir; i don't. they had maybe one or two that called up, different ones, but it was amazing--not amazing, but evidently when he was applying for these particular jobs he must have impressed them such that they would let him know one way or the other, you know, whether they had a job for him or not, rather than just pass it by. mr. liebeler. did lee own a suit of clothes? mr. murret. i think he did; yes, sir. it was during the summer, and it was a woolen suit more so than a summer suit. mr. liebeler. do you know whether he wore that suit when he went looking for a job? mr. murret. he might have wore it once; yes, sir. that was the only suit he had that i know of. mr. liebeler. how much luggage did lee have with him when he stayed out at the place on french street? mr. murret. i couldn't say. just the bag that i saw, you know, just the handbag which is similar to--you know, like a basketball equipment bag. mr. liebeler. something like an airline bag? mr. murret. yes; something like that. mr. liebeler. just a soft---- mr. murret. right, just a small bag. mr. liebeler. you don't remember what color it was? mr. murret. no, sir. mr. liebeler. if you can't think of anything else that you can remember or that you think would be helpful, i have no more questions at this point. mr. murret. o.k. mr. liebeler. i want to thank you very much. testimony of edward john pic, jr. the testimony of edward john pic, jr., was taken on april , , at the old civil courts building, royal and conti streets, new orleans, la., by mr. albert e. jenner, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. edward john pic, jr., no. jay street, lake vista, new orleans, la., after first being duly sworn, testified as follows: mr. jenner. you are edward john pic, jr., is that right? mr. pic. correct. mr. jenner. what is your address, sir? mr. pic. no. jay street, lake vista. mr. jenner. is that j-a-y? mr. pic. yes. mr. jenner. is lake vista a suburb of new orleans? mr. pic. yes; it's on the lake pontchartrain frontage. mr. jenner. are you aware of the existence of the warren commission, mr. pic? mr. pic. well, i knew, you know, an investigation was started. mr. jenner. mr. pic, the warren commission was authorized by senate joint resolution no. . that legislation authorized the president of the united states to appoint a commission to investigate all the facts and circumstances surrounding, and pertinent to, the tragic event of november , , which was the assassination of our president john fitzgerald kennedy. mr. pic. i understand. mr. jenner. thereafter president johnson, under executive order no. did appoint that particular commission, of which his honor, the chief justice of the united states, earl warren, is chairman. that executive order, pursuant to the legislation, directs the commission, upon its creation, to investigate all the facts and circumstances surrounding the tragic event of november , , and also the subsequent death and course of conduct of lee harvey oswald and of jack ruby. the commission was authorized to create a legal staff, and one of our duties is the taking of testimony, both in person before the commission itself and by deposition, such as we are doing here today, of anybody who might have touched the lives of these people in any manner or in any capacity. do you understand what we are doing now? mr. pic. yes; i think so. mr. jenner. now, i must confess candidly that up until yesterday i was under the impression that you were deceased, or at least no one knew where you were, and then a witness whom i examined yesterday told me, to my surprise, that you were very much alive? mr. pic. i certainly am. mr. jenner. you have been seen occasionally by this witness on the street. he said he had no occasion to speak to you, but that he recognized you. now, had i known that before, i would have transmitted to you in advance a letter through the general counsel of the commission, mr. rankin, in which you would have been advised of the commission's authority to take your deposition, and you would have also received, enclosed with the letter, a copy of senate joint resolution authorizing the creation of the commission to investigate the assassination of president kennedy; a copy of the executive order no. , of president johnson appointing the commission and fixing its powers and duties, and a copy of the rules and regulations under which we take testimony before the commission itself, and also by way of deposition, as we are doing here today. mr. pic. may i say something? mr. jenner. surely; anything. mr. pic. i think it was some time after christmas, possibly january, that an agent of the fbi came to see me, and he knew whether i was still alive. mr. jenner. well, i am just confessing my own stupidity and ignorance. mr. pic. he just wanted to know if i knew anything about it, and i told him i didn't; and that was all. mr. jenner. he didn't go into it any further than that? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. well, that still doesn't justify my ignorance or misinformation. who was it that said--was it will rogers, that said the reports of his death were very much exaggerated? so i called you last night, and then in order that you might be assured that you weren't being inquired of by some crackpot, i asked the secret service man to contact you today, and he did, didn't he? mr. pic. yes. mr. jenner. and so you appeared voluntarily here; is that right? mr. pic. yes. mr. jenner. now, mr. pic, you are a native of this section of the country, are you not? mr. pic. i was born and raised in new orleans. mr. jenner. born and raised here? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and your wife the same way? mr. pic. yes; my present wife; yes. mr. jenner. you were married at one time to marguerite oswald, or rather, to marguerite claverie, who later married oswald; is that right, mr. pic? mr. pic. correct, sir. mr. jenner. and that took place when? mr. pic. . mr. jenner. you were both very young people? mr. pic. right. i was born in august of . mr. jenner. you were married how long? just give me your best estimate. mr. pic. i guess about years. mr. jenner. three years? mr. pic. somewhere around that. mr. jenner. did you have difficulty in this marriage before it actually terminated? mr. pic. well, yes; things happened, you know. mr. jenner. your marriage was terminated in divorce, wasn't it mr. pic? mr. pic. yes; that's right. mr. jenner. about how long did you actually live together before you separated? mr. pic. oh, about a year, i guess. mr. jenner. so then you separated, and a divorce followed in a couple of years; is that right? mr. pic. yes. mr. jenner. what was your business or occupation when you were married to marguerite? mr. pic. i was just classified as a clerk. mr. jenner. in what company? mr. pic. t. smith & son. mr. jenner. are you still with that company? mr. pic. i am, sir. mr. jenner. i suppose the nature of your work with the company has changed; is that right? mr. pic. yes; it has, sir. mr. jenner. what do you do now? mr. pic. i am in the ship department as well as the tugboat department of the company. mr. jenner. do you have managerial supervision in the company now, mr. pic? mr. pic. yes; i am operating manager of the company. mr. jenner. you have major responsibilities with the company now; is that right? mr. pic. yes, sir; right much. i have a big responsibility with the company. mr. jenner. now, at a point in your marriage to the then mrs. pic, who is now mrs. oswald, there was a time when you didn't get along; is that right? mr. pic. yes. mr. jenner. will you tell me about that please? just tell me in your own words what difficulty you had with her. mr. pic. well, we just couldn't put two and two together and make it come out to four. mr. jenner. there was no outside influence? mr. pic. no; none; definitely not. mr. jenner. on either side? mr. pic. no; there wasn't. mr. jenner. you just figure you were two persons who couldn't jell; is that just about a fair statement of your situation at that time? mr. pic. that's right. we couldn't make it. we just couldn't get along, you know, so we finally decided to quit trying and call the whole thing off; which we did. mr. jenner. tell me this. was she a nice girl. would you right now be able to look back and say whether she was what you would consider a nice girl at that time? mr. pic. oh, definitely, yes. she was a nice girl. i couldn't say anything about marguerite at all. it was just one of those things. we just couldn't get along. we had a lot of friends and everything, but there was something that kept things getting worse and worse. maybe i had a rotten disposition, i don't know. mr. jenner. you aren't trying to place the blame anywhere now, are you? mr. pic. no. mr. jenner. now, you have lived here in new orleans all the intervening years; haven't you? mr. pic. yes; that's right. mr. jenner. was there a child born of your marriage to marguerite, mr. pic? mr. pic. yes. mr. jenner. and that's john edward pic, is that correct? mr. pic. correct, sir. mr. jenner. why did you give him that name, so he wouldn't be another "jr.," or ii or iii? mr. pic. i had nothing to do with that, sir. she named him. mr. jenner. she gave him that name? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. was the child born before or after the separation? mr. pic. after the separation. mr. jenner. were you aware that she was pregnant at the time of the separation? mr. pic. i was, sir. mr. jenner. and you discussed that with her, i presume? mr. pic. yes. mr. jenner. was that a mutual agreement, to separate? mr. pic. yes, sir; we went to an attorney, the same attorney, and he worked it out for us. we decided the best thing for us was to separate, and we did. mr. jenner. then you supported her; did you? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. the child john edward pic was born then during the period of the separation, but before the divorce, is that right? mr. pic. that's right. mr. jenner. were you aware of the birth of the child? mr. pic. yes. mr. jenner. then a divorce took place? mr. pic. correct. mr. jenner. about how long after the birth of the boy? mr. pic. oh, i guess about a year and a half. mr. jenner. about a year and a half? mr. pic. yes. mr. jenner. was a decree entered? mr. pic. oh, yes. mr. jenner. under which you paid alimony to your former wife and child support to your son? mr. pic. well, it was not a court decree as far as the alimony was concerned. that was an arrangement made between her, myself and the attorney, that they keep that out of the divorce decree, about alimony. that was a mutual understanding. i agreed that i would give her as much as i could out of the salary i would make. mr. jenner. how long did you make payments in the form of alimony to her? mr. pic. from the time of the separation up to , i paid it. i sent monthly checks. mr. jenner. in the same amount? mr. pic. the same amount; yes, sir. mr. jenner. did you pay her any separate amounts during that time as alimony? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. you did not? mr. pic. no, sir; it was agreed with our attorney that she could have all the furniture. i made no claim on anything. she took it all. mr. jenner. and you have the distinct recollection that you paid her the same amount each month up until , is that right? mr. pic. correct, sir. mr. jenner. what were those amounts, if you can recall? mr. pic. let's see--i am trying to remember if i sent that semimonthly or monthly. i think i sent those checks semimonthly. i sent her $ semimonthly, which was $ a month i sent her. mr. jenner. you sent her $ a month until ? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. then even though she remarried you still sent her $ a month, is that right? mr. pic. that's right. mr. jenner. you knew she had remarried? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. when did you remarry? mr. pic. i remarried in . mr. jenner. and is that your present wife? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. what was her maiden name? mr. pic. marjorie. mr. jenner. what was her given name? mr. pic. boensel. she had previously been married. mr. jenner. was she a widow? mr. pic. when we got married, yes; she was a widow. her husband had died. mr. jenner. have you had any children from that marriage? mr. pic. yes. mr. jenner. girl or boy? mr. pic. girl. mr. jenner. what is her name? mr. pic. martha. mr. jenner. how old is she? mr. pic. this july. mr. jenner. tell me this: did you know from time to time where marguerite would be so that you would know where to send those checks? mr. pic. yes, sir; i did. mr. jenner. how? did she communicate with you? mr. pic. well, up to the time she moved out of the city, i think i knew where she lived, but i am trying to think where the next place she moved to when she moved out of town. i think it was fort worth, tex., or brownsville; i just don't remember. mr. jenner. well, let me give you some addresses and let's see if they refresh your recollection. mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. from to on alvar street in new orleans? mr. pic. alvar; yes. mr. jenner. do you remember when she lived on alvar? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. then she lived for a while, about a year, at bartholomew in new orleans; do you remember that? mr. pic. yes, sir; since you mention it. mr. jenner. then in at broadway, new orleans; do you remember that? mr. pic. that's possibly right, but it don't ring a bell. mr. jenner. do you remember her being over in algiers, atlantic avenue? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. then about in dallas, tex., victor? mr. pic. i don't remember dallas. mr. jenner. you don't remember dallas? mr. pic. no; she could have, but i don't remember it. mr. jenner. do you remember benbrook, tex., in ? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. covington, la., in , in the summer of that year? mr. pic. covington, no; i don't remember sending checks there. mr. jenner. all right. fort worth, tex., ? mr. pic. i do remember her being there; yes. mr. jenner. eighth avenue? mr. pic. well, the address i don't know, but i know she lived in fort worth about then. mr. jenner. you do remember fort worth? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. do you definitely remember sending her $ a month when she was in fort worth? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and it was while she was in fort worth that the payments were finally stopped, is that right? mr. pic. correct, sir; in . mr. jenner. in ? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. how did you transmit these checks to her, since she moved around quite a bit, as we know? mr. pic. well, i would get a cashier's check from the whitney national bank in new orleans and sometimes the city bank branch, which our company had an account in, and i could get it through without a lot of red tape that way since i worked for the company and all. now, those addresses that you read off to me, she probably kept me posted where she would be from time to time--you know, let me know where to send the check. now, in i was of course still sending support to my son, and through withholding i was able to claim him as a dependent, but i knew he was getting up in age, , years, and i made inquiry whether he was still going to school, or was working, because the treasury department called me in and said i made a claim for my son when he had filed a tax return himself and in fact claiming his mother as a dependent, so i got in trouble with the treasury department over that, because i didn't know he was working. mr. jenner. did you learn in eventually that your boy was in the coast guard? mr. pic. finally i did; yes. she sent me a picture of john, and to me it looked like he was in the navy, but i guess it was the coast guard. so anyway after they told me he was working, i went to see my attorney and explained it to him that the boy had reached the age where he was self-supporting, and inasmuch as i had remarried and she had remarried, it wasn't necessary that i send her any more money, so i wrote her a letter and told her that i had no further legal obligation as far as the law was concerned, so i advised her that that would be the last check i would be sending her, and i heard no more from her. mr. jenner. have you seen your son john? mr. pic. no, sir; only on the picture; and that was just up to about the -year age, that i actually seen him. mr. jenner. you did see him when he was about a year old? mr. pic. yes; up to about a year old. mr. jenner. but from that time on to the present day, you have never seen him? mr. pic. no, i have never seen my boy since that time. mr. jenner. when was the last time you saw marguerite? mr. pic. oh, that's been a long, long time. mr. jenner. could that have been as long a period as years that you haven't seen marguerite? mr. pic. well, yes; that's about correct, sir; it's very close to that. mr. jenner. years? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and you never knew lee at all; you never saw him, did you? mr. pic. no. mr. jenner. you didn't even know he was born, or when he was born, did you? mr. pic. no, sir; i knew she had two children now, but what their names were, i didn't know that. now, a few days after the assassination, which i hate to mention, her name struck me all of a sudden, but i didn't think even then that she was the oswald mixed up in this, and her son, and all. i said to my wife, "honey, do you realize who that is?" and she said, "yes, i figured who it was all the time, but i didn't want to mention it to you and bring all that up." i didn't realize that it was her boy at all. mr. jenner. did you know her husband, lee oswald? mr. pic. no; i never met him. mr. jenner. you never did meet him and you never did hear of him, is that right? mr. pic. that's right; i never did even hear of him. mr. jenner. did you know a man by the name of ekdahl? mr. pic. no; not to my knowledge; no, sir. mr. jenner. did you know she was married to him at one time? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. had you known him up to that moment? mr. pic. no; not till i read about him in the paper--that she had another marriage and it broke up, i believe, or something. it was in the paper. mr. jenner. and your boy john didn't communicate with you at that time? mr. pic. never has; no, sir. i never got any word from john. i guess he forgot about me. he was too young to realize, and maybe his mother never did tell him about his old man. mr. jenner. well, to be completely charitable about it, you don't even know if he knows you are alive, do you? mr. pic. that's right. mr. jenner. you never can tell about those things? mr. pic. no; you never know. mr. jenner. well, mr. pic, i appreciate your coming in today. i know it has been some inconvenience to you. i have no further questions. mr. pic. well, like i say, i never did know about her marriage to mr. oswald, other than i had known that she remarried, and his name was mentioned to me. mr. jenner. i understand that. now, mr. pic, you have the right, if you wish, to come in and read your deposition and sign it, or you may waive that and this gentleman, the court reporter, will transcribe the deposition and it will be sent by the u.s. attorney to washington. now what do you prefer to do? do you want to read and sign it, or do you want to waive that? mr. pic. oh, i will waive it. i mean, the information i have is all i can give you. my wife and i have known that we faced this ever since the assassination, that it would come some day, but we just didn't want a lot of publicity or anything, you know. mr. jenner. well, you may rest assured that the fact that you have testified here will not be made known to any news reporters or any news media by anyone in this room, and we appreciate your coming in and telling us what you know about it. testimony of john carro the testimony of john carro was taken on april , , at the u.s. courthouse, foley square, new york, n.y., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. john carro, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: mr. liebeler. my name is wesley j. liebeler. i am a member of the legal staff of the president's commission investigating the assassination of president kennedy. staff members have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the commission pursuant to authority granted to the commission by executive order no. , dated november , , and joint resolution of congress no. . under the commission's rules for the taking of testimony, each witness is to be provided with a copy of the executive order and of the joint resolution, and a copy of the rules that the commission has adopted governing the taking of testimony from witnesses. the commission will provide you copies of those documents. under the commission's rules for the taking of testimony, each witness is entitled to days' notice of his testimony. i don't believe you actually received days' notice. mr. carro. no. mr. liebeler. but since you are here, i don't believe there is any question that you will---- mr. carro. there's no problem. mr. liebeler. we want to inquire briefly of you today, mr. carro, concerning your recollection of the contact we are informed that you had with lee harvey oswald when he lived here in new york at the time he was approximately years old, back in - . mr. carro. yes. mr. liebeler. before we get into that, would you state your full name for the record. mr. carro. well, my name is john carro. mr. liebeler. where do you live? mr. carro. lakeside drive, in yonkers, state of new york. mr. liebeler. where are you presently employed? mr. carro. i am employed with the mayor's office here in the city of new york. mr. liebeler. you are an assistant to the mayor? mr. carro. an assistant to the mayor. mr. liebeler. where were you born? mr. carro. i was born in orocovis, p.r. mr. liebeler. when? mr. carro. august , . mr. liebeler. when did you come to the united states? mr. carro. i came to the united states, i believe it was in --' . mr. liebeler. and you came to new york at that time? mr. carro. new york city; yes, sir. mr. liebeler. and you have lived in new york city ever since, or its environs? mr. carro. yes. mr. liebeler. would you outline briefly for us your educational background? mr. carro. well, i went to junior high school and high school, college and law school here. i attended benjamin franklin high school, fordham university and brooklyn law school. i graduated from law school in . in addition, i attended schools in the navy, the hospital corps school, and i attended one year at nyu, the school of public administration, under the city executive program. i am an attorney and have a b.s. degree from the university of fordham. mr. liebeler. have you at any time engaged in the practice of law here in new york? mr. carro. yes; i have. i have from the time i was admitted to practice in february of been in the practice of law. even at the present time, although i am not, myself, actively engaged, i maintain a law partnership where i practice. mr. liebeler. i understand that you were a probation officer, assigned as a probation officer to the domestic relations court. mr. carro. yes. mr. liebeler. here in new york? mr. carro. yes. mr. liebeler. at what time did you first become so assigned? mr. carro. well, i worked with the probation department of the domestic relations court, children's division, from early 'til . i am trying to recollect--from to . i believe it was up to october of . it may have been around september of . i'm not sure. mr. liebeler. can you tell us, after did you hold any other public office or any other---- mr. carro. oh, yes; i worked from to as a social investigator for the city of new york. from to i was probation officer of the children's court. then, in for about a month or so i was with the new york city police department as a probationary patrolman and left to join the new york city youth board where i worked as a social--i mean, a street club worker, senior worker and supervisor. i worked with the new york youth board for years with their council of social and athletic clubs, which is the common name given to the "street gang project." from to i was appointed to the state commission against discrimination. i worked with them as a field representative. in to i worked for mobilization for youth, which is a privately financed organization with federal, state, and city funds and private funds, developing a program for the youth, as an associate director, and from to the present i have been an assistant to the mayor of the city of new york. mr. liebeler. does your job with the mayor at the present time relate to youth, or more generally---- mr. carro. yes, in the sense that i have liaison responsibility with the various social service agencies, which included the youth board, the department of correction and city commission on human rights. i do a great deal of work with education and youth, and i am in charge of the mayor's information center and the mobile unit, and although that does not give me a direct relationship, the leaning of my own background experience have been so that i have represented the mayor on the president's committee on narcotics. i also have worked with the mobilization for youth. i have sat in for the mayor on some of the situations. i naturally tend to this kind of work. mr. liebeler. how did you first become interested in this? was this because of your work as a probation officer or the work you did prior to that? mr. carro. well, i think it was a combination of both. i grew up in east harlem, and i belonged to a number of organizations, and actually i desired to get social work experience, and when i went into the welfare department i found out that i would enjoy it much better working with youth, and it was just through reading about it, i happened to read--i heard that probation work with youth--than welfare investigator, and while in probation i read about the youth board work, and i liked the idea of a detached worker approach, working in the streets, trying to reach the young people before they came to court and had already committed a crime, and this is why i left the police department, in the thought that i would like to do that. i have an interest in young people. mr. liebeler. during the time that you worked as a probation officer did you have occasion to make the acquaintance of lee harvey oswald? mr. carro. yes, i did. mr. liebeler. will you tell us everything that you can remember about that in your own words? mr. carro. well, i was first assigned to the case, i believe it was about april of . this was a petition that had been brought before the court by the attendance bureau relating to this boy, lee harvey oswald, because of his truancy from school. he had been absent quite a great deal of time on a prior term, on a transfer to a new school; he had just neglected to attend school altogether, and the board of education has a bureau who send out an attendance officer to find out why the boy is not going to school. apparently their efforts were fruitless so that the attendance bureau of the board of education had referred the matter to the court for a petition, and the mother had been asked to come into court with the boy. my recollection, as i recall, is that initially the mother did not bring him in and the judge ordered a warrant for her to bring the boy, and when she did come in with the boy a petition was drawn, alleging truancy, the judge made a finding of truancy, and ordered that the boy be remanded to youth house for what they call a sociological study. the case is then assigned to a probation officer in the court to make further investigation to bring back to the court for a possible determination as to the case. this is the instance that i came into the case. the judge having made a finding and ordered an investigation, i was the probation officer assigned to do the investigation in the case. mr. liebeler. the original finding that the judge made was that oswald was a truant, and the first finding also ordered oswald to be committed in the youth house, is that correct? mr. carro. remanded, yes. mr. liebeler. remanded. mr. carro. pending investigation, and for a sociological study while there. mr. liebeler. would the probation officer work with the boy while he was in the youth house or basically after he got out of the youth house? mr. carro. no, actually the probation officer's job would be then to develop a history of the family which would entail talking to the boy about the nature of the difficulty which brought him before the court, talking to the parent as to what the parent knew and the boy's whole background from early childhood, whether there was trauma, whether he was a nailbiter, you know, the whole family history, brother, sibling relationship, parental history, look into the school record. in this particular instance it was most important because there was a question of truancy. also find out about the religious affiliation, whether the boy went to church, look into the environmental surroundings, where he lived; visit the home, talk to the boy, himself, about the nature of his act and why he did the things he did, and actually, in essence, get a full report, about as full as possible as to the boy's background, his parents, his whole situation, make a recommendation to the court, get the reports from the school as to what the probation officer deemed should happen in this instance. unlike the special sessions and other courts where the probation officers do not make recommendations, in children's court the probation officer does make a recommendation which the judge then can go along with or reject or take it under consideration. this was aside from what was going on in youth house. in youth house the boy that is sent there, every worker that has some contact with the boy is required to write something about the contact, and they are in fairly good position because they watch this boy in his off moments for to weeks, in his everyday activities, and he is also seen by a psychiatrist while he is there, and then this report, along with what the probation officer has been able to get from visits to the home, the parents, talking to the boy himself, is collated and put together, and this forms the basis for the material that is given to the judge, so that the judge is in a better position to render a decision of what should happen, whether this boy should be placed, whether he should be returned home, whether he should be given therapy, whether he should be put on probation, strict probation, or whatever the judge would deem in the particular instance. mr. liebeler. in this particular case you recall that oswald was remanded to youth house? mr. carro. yes, he was remanded from the very first day to the youth house because he had not even bothered to report to school. i forget whether he had just turned or he was still , but in new york state we have a law that requires each boy to attend school until at least , and this was a young man of tender age who had at this point taken it upon himself to just not bother to go to school any more, and furthermore, this was not the usual hooky-playing type--when i say hooky, the type of boy who does not go to school, to truant with his other friends, to go to the park, fish, play, or whatever it is. this is a boy who would not go to school just to remain home, not do anything. the judge felt that since there was no father figure at home and it was just a mother who worked, that this was not a salutary situation for a boy this tender age to be in, and he felt he wanted to find out a little more about this boy before he made decision, and consequently he asked for the study at the youth house. mr. liebeler. do you know who worked with lee oswald at the youth house? mr. carro. no; i only know that--i did not know the staff by name. i had been there on some occasions, so i do not know specifically who. i know he was seen by the psychiatrist, dr. hartogs, because they do send you their report afterwards, and i did receive a youth house report, but i don't recall who specifically had the daily contacts with lee oswald. mr. liebeler. how does it come that you remember receiving dr. hartogs' report? mr. carro. well, because since he was sent there and he is the doctor who does the report, this comes back to the court, and it is incorporated into the final report before it is put out, and dr. hartogs, i knew, was the one who did it for the court. he was the chief psychiatrist or so. all the reports were signed by him, almost, that came to us. mr. liebeler. do you know whether dr. hartogs actually interviewed these children and talked to them? mr. carro. i don't know. mr. liebeler. or did he just administer the work of other psychiatrists, do you know? mr. carro. i don't know if he had, you know, colleagues who did the work for him. as a matter of fact, i don't know how many times he saw lee or his mother. all we used to get is a report signed by dr. hartogs. i don't know if he personally saw this boy or not. mr. liebeler. what else can you remember of your contacts with lee oswald? mr. carro. let me tell you my recollection of the oswald case. as you can imagine, from years ago, this was an odd thing, because i did not realize that oswald was the person that had killed kennedy the first couple of days. it was only almost--i believe it was after the burial or just about that time, while i was watching the papers, on the day that he actually was killed by ruby, that i saw some pictures of the mother, and i started reading about the new york situation, that it suddenly tied in, because, you know, something happening in texas, , miles, is something you hardly associate with a youngster that you had years prior or years prior. a friend of mine called me up, a social worker, to tell me, "carro, you know who that case is?" and he said, "that was the case you handled. don't you remember?" and then we started discussing the case, and i remembered then, and what happened then is i felt, you know, it was a kind of a numb feeling, because you know about it and could not know what to do with it. i was a probation officer and despite the fact that i was no longer one, i still felt that this was a kind of a ticklish situation, about something that i knew that no one else knew, and i went upstairs and i told the press secretary to the mayor. i told him the information that had just been relayed to me that i had been oswald's p.o. and that i should tell the mayor about it, and the mayor had gone to washington, so he told me, "just sit tight and don't say anything." the story didn't break in the papers--this was on a tuesday or wednesday--until saturday when someone found out, went to judge kelley, and then there were stories friday, saturday, and the post reporter showed up to my house on a sunday evening. i don't know how he found out where i lived or anything else, but once he got there, i called city hall again, "look, i got this reporter over here. what do i do with him?" they said, "so apparently the story has broken. so talk to him." but the reporter it seemed, had more information than i had. he was actually clarifying my mind, because you can understand that you're not going to quote, you know, paraphrase years later what happened. i have worked with a great many children during that time, and i have done a great deal of work with youth. what did stand out, you know, that i really recall as a recollection of my own was this fact, that this was a small boy. most of the boys that i had on probation were puerto rican or negro, and they were new york type of youngsters who spoke in the same slang, who came from the bronx whom i knew how to relate to because i knew the areas where they came from, and this boy was different only in two or three respects. one, that i was a catholic probation officer and this boy was a lutheran, which was strange to begin with, because you normally carry youth of your own background. and secondly that he did dress in a western style with the levis, and he spoke with this southwestern accent which made him different from the average boy that i had on probation. and, as i said, my own reaction then was that he seemed like a likable boy who did not seem mentally retarded or anything. he seemed fairly bright, and once spoken to, asked anything, he replied. he was somewhat guarded, but he did reply, and my own reaction in speaking to him was one of concern, because he did not want to play with anybody, he did not care to go to school; he said he wasn't really learning anything; he had brothers, but he didn't miss them or anything. he seems to have liked his stay at youth house, and this is not--how do you call it--not odd, because in youth house they did show the movies and give candy bars and this and the other, and they were paid attention, and this is a boy who is virtually alone all day, and only in that respect did it mean anything to me. as i told reporters at the time there was no indicia that this boy had any marxist leanings or that he had any tendencies at that age that i was able to view that would lead him into future difficulty. actually he came before the court with no prior record, with just the fact that he was not going to school, and the other thing that touched me was that the mother at that time seemed overprotective; she just seemed to think that there was nothing wrong with the boy, and that once we got him back to school, which i told him in no uncertain terms he would have to go back because he was just too young to decide he would not go to school any more, that all his problems were resolved. i think it may have been a threat to her to want to involve her in the treatment for the boy, because i did make a recommendation that he--it seemed to me that he needed help, that he needed to relate to some adult, that he needed to be brought out of this kind of a shell that he was retreating to, and not wanting friends, not wanting to go out, and not wanting to relate to anyone, and that i thought he had the capacity for doing this, and the psychiatric report sort of bore this out in perhaps much more medical terms, and they recommended that he either receive this kind of a support of therapeutic group work treatment at home, if it were possible, or, if not, in an institution. now, the situation in this kind of case is that treatment has to involve the parent, you know, the whole family setup, not just the child, and i think this is where the mother sort of felt threatened herself. people do not always understand what group work and treatment and psychiatric treatment means. there are all kinds of connotations to it, and she resisted this. we tried--or even before we came into the case, before the case came to court, i think she had been referred to the salvation army, i believe it was, and she had not responded. actually, when the boy came back with all these reports to the court, he was not put on supervision per se to me. the matter was sort of up in the air where it would be brought back every month while we made referral to various agencies, to see if they would take him into children's village or harriman farms, and whatever it was, and it was just looking around, shopping around for placement for him. and the mother, i think, felt threatened about that time, that the boy was back in school, we were looking to get him psychiatric treatment, and she came in and wanted to take the boy out of the state, and we told her she could not take him out without the court's ok. as a matter of fact, i recall the case was put on the calendar before judge sicher in november of that year, , when she was told, yes, that it was necessary to have the boy remain here, and that that is when the judge ordered a referral to the psychiatric clinic of the court, and to the big brothers who subsequently accepted the boy for working with. with that the mother took off in january, without letting us know, and just never came back. mr. liebeler. did you have the impression that mrs. oswald had the idea that you were going to take the boy and place him? mr. carro. i think she might have had the idea because we certainly were coming back to court each month, you know, with the judge saying, "well, try children's village. try harriman farms, try this place and try that." i think she was threatened, that there was a plan afoot, that if the boy would not work out, that he would be placed. this was one of the recommendations that i felt he should be placed, and the court also; something could be worked out, because, incidentally, when he did go back to school he did go to school, but he was presenting, you know, marginal problems in school, and he was not doing as well as expected. mr. liebeler. there is a summary report in the file that he had been elected president of his class; that the court had been given a report to that effect. do you recall anything about that? mr. carro. no. as a matter of fact, the one that i recall is that he neglected to salute the american flag in class, and the reason i never said anything of that to the newspapers is because i figured they would pick this up and say, you know, "see, years ago he refused to salute the american flag. this is proof." and i did not want a newspaper headline, you know, "oswald at the age of refused to salute the american flag." mr. liebeler. that happens from time to time, i suppose, in children that age? mr. carro. the kind of reports that came back, he was a little disruptive in class, but nothing of any nature that i would, you know, singly point out. he did not become president of the class that i recall. mr. liebeler. you indicated that you had the feeling that the possibility of lee oswald being involved with psychiatric treatment, which would also involve his mother, whole family group, constituted a threat to or threatened the mother. what did you mean by that? mr. carro. well, there was a reluctance in her to get involved in the boy's treatment process. she saw herself as removed, as this having nothing to do with her. furthermore, she saw the boy's problem as the only problem being he did not go to school, and once we insisted that he go back to school her attitude was, "why are you bothering me? you're harassing me. he's back in school. why do you want him to go to the clinic for? why should i go with him? why do we have to see the protestant big brothers for? he has brothers. what does he need brothers for? leave us alone. i don't like new york. i was a woman of means in louisiana when my husband was alive." here in new york she just felt that people were--this was just bothering her; she couldn't understand that in helping the boy you need to have the help of the parent because this is a young boy, and if he is going to go to a court clinic, for example, she has to take him there, and her own attitude toward the help he is receiving, unless it is one that will support whatever we are trying to do for him, if it is negative, and she is rejecting, and she is resisting, the boy himself will resist whatever kind involvement you are doing for him, and we needed her to see this, and did go along with the plan. or she may have been as disturbed as the boy but we were just trying to get her involved in whatever plan we had for the boy. mr. liebeler. i wanted to seek your opinion on that. mr. carro. i think she was. even at that time i said that she was so self-involved in her own situation that she tended to blame everything, and yet say it was nothing, for the boy's problems. the fact that a boy could stay out of school, i think it was days before he went to this new school and not report at all, and have a parent whom the attendance officer and the bureau of education, bureau of attendance is getting after, and the parent admits that she cannot control or cannot do anything about her boy not going to school, is significant of her inability to cope with this situation. then this plus, this idea--i don't know if she, in fact, came from wealth or not; this giving you this idea that where she came from she was a woman of means and all that, but in new york here, she had been downgraded to this kind of a thing. she mentioned that part of his problem was that when he first came to live here in the bronx, they lived around the grand concourse, and i don't know if you are familiar with the bronx, but grand concourse is an area of fairly middle class jewish community, and she felt this, that the boy was dressed in a little below the level of the children up there. he did dress in levis and i think his reaction in not going to school was in part the fact that some of the children had poked fun both at his dress and his manner of speech, and he had retreated from this, and this is why he would not mix and why he became a loner, and she reacted in the same way, and she was working, as i think i recall it, in a department store, and she was very unhappy about the whole situation, and she was really in no position to be with this boy any length of time, and she seemed so preoccupied with her own problems at the time that i do not think she really had an awareness as to the boy's own problem and fears. mr. liebeler. did you get the feeling that mrs. oswald felt that if--i can say this because i have lived in new york for the last years myself, so it doesn't bother me too much to bring it out. i am really a new yorker. did she have the feeling, do you think, that if these nosey new yorkers would just leave her alone and keep out of her business everything would be all right? in other words, it was just a kind of situation that exists here in this city because of the nature of the city that was different from the way things were in texas, maybe, or louisiana, that this had---- mr. carro. i don't have any doubt about it. i think she must have thought that we were making a mountain out of a molehill, and that in some other states--i was brought up in puerto rico, myself; if a boy didn't go to school or so nobody saw to it that he was brought to court, that he was sent to a psychiatrist, that the big brothers got involved in it, that you referred him here and there, and this is why i said she must have been threatened by this whole process; there is no question about it in my mind, that she could not see what all this fuss was all about. she said so, too. no question in my mind about that. i am sure that this had an effect on her decision to leave the state and take off, and particularly when she came to see us and we told her she could not go without the ok of the court, that the boy was under the supervision of the court, and he would have to remain so until the court felt that it was ok. mr. liebeler. she did advise you, however, before leaving the state, that she did intend to leave the state of new york, did she not? mr. carro. well, she advised my colleague, timothy dunn, i was on vacation i think that month of january, she came in to see him, she was referred by the big brothers, who told her she could not leave without coming to see us, and she came in to tell him, and he told her before she did we would have to put the matter on the calendar and that it would be up to the judge. you see, normally it is not that we don't allow it, that we prohibit it. routinely, even if a boy is under supervision or probation, what you do is, if the parent comes in, you put it on the calendar, you go up and report to the judge, and the judge will ask the parent, or you will have the information, and the parent wants to go to newark, n.j., or, you know, louisiana, that they are going to live with such-and-such a person over there and the court may ask you to write to that jurisdiction, to go out and make a visit to that home to see if it is a worthwhile home, and to see if there is a realistic plan or just not an effort on the part of the parents to take the boy out of the jurisdiction of the court, and you know if such a plan in reality exists and how feasible and how good is it in the interests of the welfare of the child, because for all the court may know, this is just a fiction on the part of the person to say, "i am moving out to philadelphia," and they may not be moving at all. you go up to the court, get the child discharged, and they just remain where they are. and this way the boy doesn't have to report to the court any more and the parent doesn't have to bother herself with this sort of thing. so she came in to tell us, and she was told that the matter would have to be put on the calendar and that the judge would have to pass on this. mr. liebeler. but despite that fact she left the jurisdiction? mr. carro. i wrote to her to come in, having heard, and the letter was returned "moved, address unknown." i was asked about what happens then, and, well, there is very little that one can really do. we don't have extra-state jurisdiction, and we didn't even know where she had gone. this is about the sum total of what happened there. mr. liebeler. did you yourself try to find a place to place this boy? mr. carro. yes; from the very time that we had the recommendations of the psychiatrist, those that i had made were before the judge, and he went along and felt that this boy should be helped, and the next almost months i spent in making referral after referral to the various institutions, the various clinics, to see if they would be able to service this boy either at home or within the institutional confines, because the psychiatric report was very distinctive in the fact that this boy did need this kind of help; and i mentioned that the tragedy of the whole thing was in this instance that because of his tender age and his religion, the facilities that we had here in new york were taxed, and somehow one factor or the other kept us from getting him the kind of help that he needed. it was either that it was a protestant place and he was--well, he was a lutheran, it was either a catholic and he was a lutheran, or one thing or another, but something mitigated their being able to service him. i remember, for example, that the salvation army got a referral, and they felt they just didn't have the facility to give this boy the intensive treatment he needed. this was their reason for turning him down. children's village at the time, which could have given service to this boy and had the kind of setup, did not have any vacancies at this particular time of the year for this particular age boy; and so on down the line. finally, the only recourse we had was to send it to our own psychiatric clinic, where we would do both, have him seen by a psychiatrist at our clinic, which normally we didn't even do, and at the same time receive the support of help from the big brothers, which was one of the recommendations that he should be seen by a male figure preferably because of the fact that he lacked a father, and we were actually complementing both without removing the boy from the home, and this is actually when the mother left. so that the boy was not going to be taken away; we were going to try to work out within, you know, the limits of the situation we had with the boy at home. mr. liebeler. you mentioned that the boy was going to go to your own psychiatric clinic. that is a different proposition from the youth house, is it not? mr. carro. yes. this is the psychiatric court clinic, that is on d street, which in some instances, where we are not able to effect the kind of placing we need or so, we will utilize that as a last resort, and the boy would go there periodically and be seen by the psychiatrist. mr. liebeler. it would be an outpatient-type situation? mr. carro. an outpatient-type of situation, yes. mr. liebeler. he never actually did do that, however, because he left the state? mr. carro. no; because of the mother's own resistance to the thing and having left the jurisdiction. i don't think they got to see him once. mr. liebeler. would you say that oswald was more mentally disturbed than most of the boys that you had under your supervision at that time? mr. carro. not at all, actually. i have handled cases of boys who committed murders, burglaries, and i have had some extremely disturbed boys, and this was one of the problems, this was just initially a truancy situation, not one of real disruptive or acting out delinquent behavior. no; i would definitely not put him among those who acted as--i also have had boys whom we have placed who turned out to be mentally defective, mentally retarded, quite psychotic, and who really had gradations of mental illness, of disturbances that were far, you know, greater in depth than those displayed by oswald; and the behavior which brought them before the court was certainly of a much more extreme nature. mr. liebeler. than his? mr. carro. yes. mr. liebeler. he did not in fact appear to you at that time to be a real mental problem or prone to violence or---- mr. carro. no. he appeared to have problems, but one of the problems in the situation seems to be, why wasn't this boy sent to the new york training school for boys at warwick? and the fact is that the new york training school for boys at warwick is for delinquent boys who commit crimes, really, and whose behavior is such that it is really criminal behavior; and you brand it delinquency because of the tag that attaches because he is under . you don't normally send a boy who just stays out of school. it is for boys who commit serious acts. and as a matter of fact, warwick did not have what this boy needed: extensive psychiatric help. and that is why he was not sent to the only school we have in the city, which is warwick, for the more serious boy. more seriously, it is even a drastic action to place a boy away who comes in for truancy, because truancy is itself a passive delinquent act. it is not an act which vitiates against society or mores or does harm to other people. it is an act of omission, a failure to go to school rather than an aggressive acting out, where you are destroying property or injurying persons or other things. and this is one of the factors in here. it was surprising in this instance that we wanted placement and the reason we felt placement was needed in this instance was because although you may get boys acting out in other areas, there is always someone in the community who can help out, and the court will hesitate to put a boy away if some plan can be formulated within, because the court in social work feels that there is no substitute for love and parents, even in the best of institutions that you can place children. but here the boy had no parents; he had no father; he wasn't going to school; he had no friends; he had--no agency was working with the family. he was on his own. he was just watching television all day. he wasn't mixing with anybody. he was an extremely introverted young man. he didn't want to go to school. so that in effect he had nothing going for him outside. mr. liebeler. and in addition to all that, that his mother didn't show any inclination to cooperate. mr. carro. she was ineffectual. she didn't want to cooperate and there was nothing that i as a probation officer could hang my hat on to say, "keep him here in new york city. the mother will see him through, between his mother and i, this agency and i." there was nothing there out of the total community that would be a prop or a crutch to help him see these things through. mr. liebeler. and it was these reasons that prompted you to recommend placement rather than a peculiar extreme mental disturbance in the boy himself, you would say? mr. carro. yes; it was just the sum total of the environmental factors rather than the boy's own inward manifestations of mental disturbance or psychotic disorder. mr. liebeler. you mentioned before that his particular type of truancy was different from the kind of truancy that you many times run into where the kids will just take off and go fishing or just go out---- mr. carro. fly kites or pigeons, you know. mr. liebeler. did you think it was different because oswald just had a tendency to stay home and watch television? mr. carro. no---- mr. liebeler. wait, please---- mr. carro. i am sorry. mr. liebeler. or did you think that the fact that he had this different kind of truancy was a reflection of some sort of mental disturbance on oswald's part, or would you say that it was just as much a function of environment, the environment that he found himself in here in new york? mr. carro. well, i don't think there is any question in my mind that there was an inability to adapt, to adapt from the change of environment. one of the things that probably influenced me in this is that i came to new york city when i was years of age and when i came here i didn't speak a word of english, and i lived in what we call east harlem, in an area where there was a puerto rican community within a negro area, and i recall when i went to school there were four puerto rican boys in a class that was otherwise all negro, and i used to virtually run home every day in the first months i lived in the city, because at one point or another the negro boys would be waiting for me outside to take my pencils, my money, and anything that i had in my hands. i remember my mother bought me a pair of skates and i don't think i was downstairs for minutes with the skates--i don't think i was down there for minutes before they took them away from me. and i just stayed upstairs and waited for my mother at o'clock. then eventually i made friends with the other three boys, and when somebody took my books, one of the other boys stayed with me, and i fought with the negro boys until things worked out--and, as i remember, things didn't work out. i had to transfer to another school. but i can see this kind of reaction taking place. you meet the situations. either you meet them head on or you retreat from them. now he apparently had one or two incidents where he was taunted over his inability to speak the same way that the kids up here speak and to dress the same way or even comb his hair--you know, here the kids wore pegged pants and they talked in their own ditty-bop fashion. there is no--that this kid was a stranger to them in mores, culture and everything else, and apparently he could not make that adaptation, and he felt that they didn't want any part of him and he didn't want any part of them, and he seemed self-sufficient enough at the time that i recall that i asked him. he felt he wasn't learning anything in school and that he had other, more important things to learn and do. now, whether this was an artifice on his part, you know, a mechanism, i don't know--but it didn't--let me say it didn't trigger any reaction on my part that this was symptomatic of a deeper emotional disturbance. i thought that this was just symptomatic of a boy who had chosen one way of reacting to a situation that other boys would react to in another fashion. mr. liebeler. i understand that some statements have been made, based apparently on the psychiatric reports or the observations of people who worked with lee oswald here in new york when he was years old, to the effect that one might have been able to predict, from seeing the boy at that time, that he might well commit an act such as the assassination, or some similar violent act. did you see any such indication in lee oswald? mr. carro. no; naturally i didn't see it, and i would say that would be extremely difficult in order to be able to make that sort of projection or prediction. i have even, when i worked with the youth board as a streetclub worker, i worked in the street where we had no psychiatrists along with us and where we worked with much more psychotic and deeply disturbed boys, who did kill somebody right along the line, possibly a couple of months later, and even though, you know, the studies we have done here in the city and everything shows that there are a great many people who are extremely disturbed walking around, and the crutch that just keeps them on their marginal--what do you call--on this marginal living, where they just don't go out and commit some violent act, that you don't know what it is, what the factors are that keep them from just blowing up or exploding altogether. i didn't see any particular behavior that would say that this boy would someday commit this act. i have seen it, let's say, in the puerto rican youth i am familiar with, the negro youth, that sometimes they ascribe this to a crying out of people to say that they exist and that they are human beings, and they commit that violent act, just to get their one day in the sun, the day when all the papers will focus on them, and say, "i am me. i am alive." i worked with this young man in the case of the killing, this raymond serra, and this fellow, after blowing this boy's jaw up, he was flashing the victory sign like this [indicating], and when we visited him in jail he said, "did you see my picture in the papers?" and the paper played this up as a coldblooded killer. and they don't realize that days later, sensibility dawns on him, and these are the weakest, the most remorseful kids. this is just the bravado at the moment. and this is their one point in life where they draw everybody's attention--most of these kids in private life come from broken homes, and they take this opportunity to show that they are human beings. mr. liebeler. are you suggesting that this is one of the factors that motivated oswald? mr. carro. well, i am saying that this is a young man who apparently was trying to find himself and really had been--you know, he had been knocking about a great deal from here to russia and everywhere, and he had come back disgruntled, and nobody paid any attention to him. some people are prone to this. i wouldn't speculate on what drove oswald to do this. i would say in my experience i have encountered many a boy who will do things like this to attract attention to themselves, that they exist, and they want somebody to care for them. it is hard to say what motivated him. i don't really know. i had no inkling of that at that stage. as a matter of fact, he said when he grew up he wanted to go into the service, just like his brothers, who were in the service, and he said he liked to horseback ride; he used to collect stamps. but certainly these things that he said were the normal kind of outlet, the things any normal boy of years of age would do. there was nothing that would lead me to believe when i saw him at the age of that there would be seeds of destruction for somebody. i couldn't in all honesty sincerely say such a thing. mr. liebeler. let me ask this, mr. carro: after you became aware of the fact, after it was called to your attention that lee oswald had been under your supervision as a probation officer, did you have occasion to review the records of the case before you---- mr. carro. no; i had no--there was nothing to review. those kind of records were all kept in the children's court. the only recollection--and they were not furnished to me. the newspaper guy who came to see me seemed to have gotten, as i mentioned--there were five reports made, and they are sent out to different institutions. i don't know. i am not privy to how newspapermen get their information, but he seemed to have a better knowledge. he was just in a sense corroborating what i may have said at a particular point and all that, with me, and i had nothing to really go on, you know, that would refresh my recollection, except this conversation with this social worker, a friend of mine, who knew of the case, because they had gotten it from me, who called me to say that. mr. liebeler. so that you yourself have not actually reviewed---- mr. carro. i have no independent record of any sort or had nothing to refresh my recollection about. mr. liebeler. and you had not seen the court's papers or the petition that was filed, or the memorandum---- mr. carro. no; the only thing that i might have seen, and i don't--an fbi agent come in and spoke to me a couple of months ago, and i don't know if that was the original record he had with him, but he sat down, as you are, and spoke to me, and there was little i could add to what was in the record there. mr. liebeler. the record that you prepared---- mr. carro. well, i noticed it was my handwriting. he seemed to have my record with him. i had no independent recollection or evidence outside of the records he had. mr. liebeler. the records which you would have prepared would be prepared by you in the course of your work as a probation officer, and they would have reflected your opinions at that time, is that correct? mr. carro. correct, and i would have nothing to add now at this point as to what happened years ago. mr. liebeler. let me ask you to review a photostatic copy of a document that is captioned "supplementary facts and explanations," which appears to be some sort of exhibit to a petition in connection with lee oswald. this particular document i refer to consists of eight pages and i would ask you to review that briefly, to look it over and tell me if you recognize what it is, where this gets into the proceedings and if it in fact sets forth the report of some of your work, reports to the youth house, and would it be the record that was prepared at that time in connection with the court proceedings relating to lee oswald? mr. carro. yes; as i just briefly peruse over it, first of all, it is the form that is prescribed by the court for making a report by the judge, that you can readily notice it has a prescribed type of form where you begin with the identifying information as to the child, the nature of the petition, the initial court actions, and then you go into the actual history as to the family, previous court record, family history, and then you have paragraphs set off for the home and neighborhood, school record, religious affiliations, activities and special interests, mental and physical condition, child's version, which is the discussion with the child as to the nature of the incidence why he was before the court, parental attitudes, where you discuss with the parents; past records with other agencies and evaluation of the recommendation which is made by the probation officer based on his getting together all this data. and you will also notice that included then beyond that report, which is signed by the probation officer, includes the summary for the probation officer, which is a summary of the psychiatric study, not the actual study. and then this is a record of the various court actions which preceded, who appeared, when, and i note that my signature--not my signature but my name has been typed in with respect to the various actions that took place subsequent to the boy being returned to the court during the time he was under the supervision of the court, right up to january . just perusing over this, i know that this is the various reports that i made to the court. mr. liebeler. and it finally concludes with your statement---- mr. carro. yes; concluding with the last statement of the court action of march , , before justice delaney, where there was no appearance by the people; it was just the attendance officer, myself, the probation officer, before the court, and that mrs. barnes reported that she had contacted new orleans and received no information as to the whereabouts of the family, and there was a question that a former associate thought that the family may have been living in california. justice delaney discharged the case and lee was no longer in our jurisdiction, which goes along with the fact that we had no idea; we attempted to find out; we wrote to louisiana and new orleans but couldn't get back any positive reports. mr. liebeler. would this particular document, which i will mark as "exhibit " on the deposition of mr. john carro, april , , at new york--would that have been attached to the petition or just a part of the record as a special report? mr. carro. no; this would be part of the court record, and actually the petition is just one petition where the judges make their own small notations when the probation officer appears. and that is the docket. that is kept up in the courtroom in their files. these are the records--this is the actual record that is kept by the probation department, and the only thing that is sent to the other agencies is just this initial report. you don't send in the day-to-day or the month-to-month, other subsequent actions. so that this is a separate report. mr. liebeler. would this record in the ordinary course reflect all of the action taken? mr. carro. yes; this is the record. mr. liebeler. in connection with the case? mr. carro. this is the record that the probation officer maintains while the case is under his supervision until the case is closed and reflects the contacts with the child, periodic or--all the contacts and any work that the probation officer does he is supposed to report here and make a small notation. mr. liebeler. mr. carro, i have initialed exhibit on your deposition for purposes of identification, and i ask you if you would also initial it near my initials so that we won't have any difficulty in identifying it. i am correct in my understanding, am i not, that you prepared this report? mr. carro. yes; this is my report and the entries herein, except for one or two that may have been made by mr. dunn--and i refer to the entry of - - , while i was on vacation--those bearing the name john carro, bearing my name, are my entries, and this is my report. mr. liebeler. let the record show that the exhibit that we have marked is a somewhat illegible copy. mr. liebeler. as you have indicated to me, the original was on yellow paper, which does not reproduce well. i will obtain the original and make it a part of the record. can you think of anything else, mr. carro, about oswald or your contacts with oswald that you think would be of help to the commission? mr. carro. well, i think that there has been so much written on it that you have probably a much more comprehensive report, since you have been able to get the actual records of these statements that i made at the time i wrote this. i doubt that i could really say anything at this point, years later or so, that would be of any help to you. whatever i might say would just be an independent opinion on my own and i don't think that would be that valid. i think you have the original psychiatric report here, the social agency report, and whatever it is, and they are amply--i don't think that i could add anything independently that would be of help to the commission. mr. liebeler. in view of that, mr. carro, i don't have any more questions. i want to thank you very much on behalf of the commission for coming here and for giving the testimony that you have. it is another example of the way the city of new york and the people who are associated with it have cooperated with the work of the commission. the commission appreciates it very much. we thank you sincerely. mr. carro. i appreciate very much your having me over here. i would like to offer whatever help i can, and i hope i have been of some help in making whatever decision you have to make on this matter. mr. liebeler. you have been very helpful, mr. carro. mr. carro. thank you. testimony of dr. renatus hartogs the testimony of dr. renatus hartogs was taken at : p.m., on april , , at east th street, new york, n.y., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. renatus hartogs, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: mr. liebeler. my name is wesley j. liebeler. i am a member of the legal staff of the president's commission investigating the assassination of president kennedy. staff members have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the commission pursuant to authority granted to the commission by executive order no. , dated november , , and joint resolution of congress no. . the commission has also adopted certain rules of procedure governing the taking of testimony of witnesses which provide, among other things, that each witness should receive a copy of the executive order and the joint resolution to which i have just referred, as well as a copy of the rules governing the taking of testimony. the commission will provide you with copies of these documents. the rules concerning the taking of testimony provide generally that a witness may have counsel if he wishes. he is entitled to days' notice, which i do not believe you had, but every witness is also entitled to waive that notice. i presume that you will waive the notice since we are here. dr. hartogs. that's right, sure, yes. mr. liebeler. we want to inquire of you concerning the contact which the commission understands you had with lee harvey oswald some time in or . would you state your full name for the record, please. dr. hartogs. renatus hartogs. mr. liebeler. what is your address? dr. hartogs. east th. mr. liebeler. where were you born and when? dr. hartogs. in mainz, m-a-i-n-z, germany, january , . mr. liebeler. when did you come to the united states, doctor? dr. hartogs. on december , . mr. liebeler. you received your education in germany, is that correct? dr. hartogs. in germany, in belgium. i have a ph. d. from the university of frankfurt-am-main, which is germany, and i have a medical degree from the university of brussels medical school, and then i came to the united states and i studied medicine again to fulfill the requirements of the new york state education department, and i have a medical degree from the university of montreal medical school. then i have an m.a. from new york university, and that's it. mr. liebeler. in what field is that? dr. hartogs. in clinical psychopathology. mr. liebeler. and you are---- dr. hartogs. i am a ph. d. in clinical psychology and an m.d. mr. liebeler. you are admitted to the practice of medicine in the state of new york, is that correct? dr. hartogs. in the state of new york. mr. liebeler. and you have taken the examination for the practice of medicine? dr. hartogs. yes. mr. liebeler. and you are admitted to practice medicine in the state? dr. hartogs. yes. mr. liebeler. you are regularly engaged, are you not, in the practice of medicine as a psychiatrist? dr. hartogs. as a psychiatrist exclusively, yes. mr. liebeler. how long have you been practicing here in the united states as a psychiatrist? dr. hartogs. in the states since . mr. liebeler. did you practice medicine in germany? dr. hartogs. in belgium. mr. liebeler. how long did you practice in belgium? dr. hartogs. years. mr. liebeler. was that as a psychiatrist or in the general practice of medicine? dr. hartogs. no, psychologist. mr. liebeler. you are also the chief psychiatrist for the youth house of new york city, is that correct? dr. hartogs. that's correct. mr. liebeler. how long have you held that position? dr. hartogs. since . mr. liebeler. what kind of duties do you perform as the chief psychiatrist at the youth house? tell us generally about what they are. dr. hartogs. yes, that's right. i examine all the children which have been remanded to youth house on order of the court for the purpose of psychiatric examination, so not all children who are at youth house are psychiatrically examined. there is only a specific quantity, number. as these children are psychiatrically examined by me and my staff, i submit my report to the court with recommendations and diagnosis, and it is up to the court to follow the recommendations or not. i at the same time teach the staff. i give workshops in the psychiatric aspects of social work. i give seminars in which we discuss very interesting cases which have come up and to which the professional public of new york city is invited. so, for instance, we gave such a seminar on oswald. that is the reason why i vaguely remember him. mr. liebeler. you were also, as you have testified, the chief psychiatrist for the youth house in . dr. hartogs. yes. mr. liebeler. were your duties in connection with that job pretty much the same in as they are now? dr. hartogs. yes. mr. liebeler. how large a staff did you have in , approximately? dr. hartogs. approximately i would say . mr. liebeler. a staff? dr. hartogs. yes, staff, because we have three shifts, you see. we have about two staff members for every child. mr. liebeler. i see. i thought you testified previously that there were other psychiatrists. dr. hartogs. oh, my staff? mr. liebeler. yes, on your staff, not at the youth house, but on your staff. dr. hartogs. oh, i thought--on my staff we have three psychiatrists now. mr. liebeler. about how many did you have in ? dr. hartogs. in we had two, two or three. it changed continuously. sometimes we had even four. mr. liebeler. do you remember the names of the other psychiatrists who were on the staff at the time oswald was in the youth house? dr. hartogs. no, no. they are continuously changing. sometimes they were just for a few weeks there, but i have remained on the staff continuously. mr. liebeler. the youth house is an institution of the city of new york, is that correct, or is it supported by voluntary contributions? is it a private institution or is it an adjunct of the city of new york? dr. hartogs. right now it is part of the probation department of the city of new york, under the jurisdiction of the probation department. previously it was a private institution with a private board. then later on the city of new york took over as far as the administration and the payment of the salaries is concerned, but the private board was maintained. so today the private board still exists, but the probation department of the city of new york has the jurisdiction over youth house. mr. liebeler. does the city of new york support it financially? dr. hartogs. yes, the city of new york pays for it. mr. liebeler. was that true, do you know, offhand, in , or was it still a private organization at that time? dr. hartogs. at that time it was a private organization, yes. mr. liebeler. you are a citizen of the united states, are you not? dr. hartogs. yes, since . mr. liebeler. would you outline for us in general terms what the procedure is with respect to a boy who is remanded to the youth house for psychiatric observation. he is ordered by the court to go to the youth house; he goes to the youth house. dr. hartogs. he goes to the youth house, that's right. mr. liebeler. what generally happens to him then? dr. hartogs. when he is in youth house he is given a preliminary screening as to what kind of a person he is, through human figure drawings. that is a special test that is given. mr. liebeler. who administers that, social workers on the staff? dr. hartogs. social workers, and the psychologists, they do that, a preliminary screening, because if we have very disturbed children right away from the beginning we--i see them right away on an emergency basis and send them out because we cannot keep too disturbed children in youth house. we send them then to a mental hospital. so then this child goes into an intake dormitory where he is dressed, acquainted with the techniques of adjustment in youth house, the youth house philosophy. then he is assigned to one of the dormitories, and then he is sent to school. we have our own school, p.s. . we have our own workshops for the children, recreation department. we have group service. we have our own hospital where the child is checked as to his physical health. so the child is slowly but surely introduced in all these various departments. then the social worker has interviews with this child and with the parents of the child who are invited. then the school authorities prepare a report for me so that when i see the child i have in front of me the probation officer's report, the social worker's report on his contact with the child and the parents, i have the report of group service or household, as it is called, i have the report of the medical department, and i have the report of the recreation department, and i have also the report of the psychologist. and then i see the child and examine the child, and then i incorporate in my report all these, my own findings with the findings of the youth house staff. mr. liebeler. can you tell us approximately in how much of your time you devoted to the examination of children in youth house? dr. hartogs. hours per week. mr. liebeler. hours a week. and about how many children would you see during the period of time in a week, average week? dr. hartogs. during that, or . mr. liebeler. so that you would spend somewhere between and hours with each child, is that correct? dr. hartogs. yes. mr. liebeler. is that still true? dr. hartogs. no, i mean not with the child itself. the child is seen for about half an hour to an hour. mr. liebeler. by you? dr. hartogs. by me, but then i have also to study the record which takes half an hour, and then it takes about an hour to dictate, so that counts about hours. mr. liebeler. in your capacity as chief psychiatrist for the youth house did you have occasion at any time to interview lee harvey oswald? dr. hartogs. yes. mr. liebeler. would you tell us when that was and all that you can remember about that interview in your own words. dr. hartogs. that is tough. i remember that--actually i reconstructed this from what i remembered from the seminar. we gave a seminar on this boy in which we discussed him, because he came to us on a charge of truancy from school, and yet when i examined him, i found him to have definite traits of dangerousness. in other words, this child had a potential for explosive, aggressive, assaultive acting out which was rather unusual to find in a child who was sent to youth house on such a mild charge as truancy from school. this is the reason why i remember this particular child, and that is the reason why we discussed him in the seminar. i found him to be a medium-sized, slender, curlyhaired youngster, pale-faced, who was not very talkative, he was not spontaneous. he had to be prompted. he was polite. he answered in a somewhat monotonous fashion. his sentences were well structured. he was in full contact with reality. mr. liebeler. he was? dr. hartogs. he was in full contact with reality. i found his reasoning to be intensely self-centered, his judgment also centering around his own needs, and the way he looked at life and his relationships with people. this was mostly in the foreground. so this is what i remember actually. mr. liebeler. you say that you have reconstructed your recollection of your interview with lee oswald by thinking of the seminar that you gave; is that correct? dr. hartogs. the seminar; that is right. mr. liebeler. do you have any independent recollection of the interview with lee oswald itself? dr. hartogs. only from remembering the seminar, what kind of a boy he was and what i said at that time, i was able to reconstruct the picture of the boy as i just described it; yes. that is how i proceeded. mr. liebeler. tell us about the seminar, doctor. how did it come that you gave this seminar on oswald, to whom was it given, what was the general subject matter of the seminar? dr. hartogs. yes; every monday afternoon, at : until o'clock, the professional youth house staff gets together in order to discuss an interesting or unusual child. at that time we selected oswald because of the reason which i indicated, the discrepancy between the charge and the seriousness of his personality disturbance, and the seminar was opened by the youth house director; then the social worker talked about the development, background and early history of the child; then the youth house recreation department and household talked, and then the school department gave a report; then the psychologist reported on his findings, and then i acquainted the people who were present with the findings of the psychiatrist and recommendations which i made to the court. mr. liebeler. whose suggestion was it that oswald be used as a subject matter for the seminar? dr. hartogs. i believe it was mine, because i was the one to select these children. mr. liebeler. was there any report of the proceedings of the seminar prepared? dr. hartogs. no; it is all spontaneous. mr. liebeler. just a spontaneous, informal sort of thing? dr. hartogs. that is right. mr. liebeler. no one made any memorandum of what occurred at that time? dr. hartogs. no. mr. liebeler. do you have any records relating to the seminar? dr. hartogs. no; there are never any records, never anything written down; it is purely informal. mr. liebeler. the only writings that would have been at the seminar would have been the reports that had been previously prepared by you and by the other members of the youth house staff; is that correct? dr. hartogs. right. mr. liebeler. do you recall what recommendation you made to the court in respect of oswald? dr. hartogs. if i can recall correctly, i recommended that this youngster should be committed to an institution. mr. liebeler. what type of institution, do you recall? dr. hartogs. no; that i don't recall. no. mr. liebeler. but you are quite clear in your recollection that you recommended that he be institutionalized immediately because of the personality pattern disturbance; is that correct? dr. hartogs. yes; that is right. that i remember; yes. mr. liebeler. how long did oswald stay at the youth house, do you know? dr. hartogs. not exactly. not exactly. anything from to weeks, that is the average stay. mr. liebeler. the youth house is a place the basic function of which is observation of children in a controlled environment; would you say? dr. hartogs. controlled environment for the purpose of psychiatric observation or for the purpose of detention pending court appearance, or custodial care of the child pending his commitment, i mean his actual transfer to a child-caring or custodial institution such as a training school. these are the three purposes. mr. liebeler. the youth house is not the kind of place where a boy would be kept indefinitely after he had been committed, or something like that? dr. hartogs. no, the average is about to months; i mean months is maximum. mr. liebeler. can you recall what kind of institution you recommended that oswald be committed to? dr. hartogs. i never make a recommendation as to the name, the specific institution. this is a prerogative of the court. mr. liebeler. do you make a recommendation as to the type of institution to which you recommend a child? dr. hartogs. yes; i do that, either a mental hospital or training school or residential treatment center, but i do not recall in this case what i recommended. mr. liebeler. but you do recall quite clearly that you did recommend, because of this boy's personality pattern, disturbance? dr. hartogs. yes; that he should not be placed in the community. mr. liebeler. or placed on probation? dr. hartogs. yes; that is right. mr. liebeler. do you recall being interviewed on this question by the fbi? dr. hartogs. yes. mr. liebeler. do you remember approximately when they interviewed you? dr. hartogs. no; i don't know the date. mr. liebeler. do you remember that you told them the same thing, that is, that you recommended institutionalizing oswald as a result of his psychiatric examination which indicated that he was potentially dangerous? dr. hartogs. yes. mr. liebeler. would you tell us how you first became aware, after the assassination, that lee oswald was a child with whom you had had previous contact? dr. hartogs. the first time was, i read it in the newspaper, justice kelley, you know, florence kelley, made a statement to the press that oswald had been in the youth house, and she revealed details of the psychiatric report which immediately made me aware of the fact that i was the one to examine the child, because this was my wording. mr. liebeler. do you remember the wording? dr. hartogs. for instance, incipient schizophrenia, i think she used; potentially dangerous is something which i use. these are some of the expressions. mr. liebeler. these expressions are peculiar to your particular type of work? dr. hartogs. yes. mr. liebeler. and not generally used by others? dr. hartogs. and by me generally in dealing with children. mr. liebeler. did you keep the newspaper clipping by any chance that indicated this? dr. hartogs. no, no. mr. liebeler. what did you do after you learned or became aware that oswald was a child with whom you had had contact? dr. hartogs. i didn't do anything. i didn't do anything, but the new york times sent a reporter, and he questioned me on whether i was the one to examine this child, because they read it, and i said that i did not know for sure, but it is possible. and what happened then? then very soon the fbi came in here and said, "you are the doctor who examined oswald," and from then on i know for sure that it was me, because they must have read a report. mr. liebeler. now, up until the time that the fbi came and said that you were the doctor who interviewed oswald, did you still have some doubt in your mind as to whether you had actually interviewed the boy? dr. hartogs. i was not convinced, i was not sure, until i then reconstructed everything in my mind. mr. liebeler. as you have indicated, by recalling---- dr. hartogs. that is right, then i recalled everything. mr. liebeler. did you make any statement to television people in connection with this at all? dr. hartogs. about oswald? mr. liebeler. yes. dr. hartogs. no; on the day after president kennedy died, the television people asked me to make a statement on television in general about why somebody might kill the president. i did not mention any name. i did not refer to any individual. i just made some general psychiatric remarks as to what kind of a person would kill the president. mr. liebeler. do you recall approximately what you said? dr. hartogs. that a person who would commit such an act has been very likely a mentally disturbed person, who has a personal grudge against persons in authority, and very likely is a person who in his search to overcome his own insignificance and helplessness will try to commit an act which will make others frightened, which will shatter the world, which will make other people insecure, as if he wanted to discharge his own insecurity through his own act, something like that in general terms. mr. liebeler. was it indicated by you at that time, or was it indicated on the television broadcast that you were the psychiatrist who had examined lee oswald? dr. hartogs. no, no. mr. liebeler. it was not? dr. hartogs. no, no. they didn't know. they called me because they call me very often to give some psychiatric explanations of murderers or something like that. they did not know, and i did not know for sure. mr. liebeler. at that time neither one of you were---- dr. hartogs. and they selected me. i mean it was a fantastic thing. mr. liebeler. it was purely coincidence? dr. hartogs. coincidence that they selected me. mr. liebeler. so you made no reference at that time to the examination which you had made of oswald? dr. hartogs. none at all. i didn't know. mr. liebeler. dr. hartogs, do you have in your possession a copy of the report which you made at the time you examined oswald? dr. hartogs. no. mr. liebeler. have you had any opportunity to examine a copy of that report since the assassination? dr. hartogs. no. mr. liebeler. so the recollection that you have given us as regards your diagnosis and your recommendations is strictly based on your own independent recollection, plus the reconstruction of your interview with oswald from the seminar that you recall having given? dr. hartogs. right. mr. liebeler. do you remember anything else that particularly impressed you about oswald? the fbi report indicates that you were greatly impressed by the boy, who was only - / years old at the time, because he had extremely cold, steely eyes. do you remember telling that to the agents? dr. hartogs. yes, yes; that he was not emotional at all; he was in control of his emotions. he showed a cold, detached outer attitude. he talked about his situation, about himself in a, what should i say, nonparticipating fashion. i mean there was nothing emotional, affective about him, and this impressed me. that was the only thing which i remembered; yes. mr. liebeler. now, you recall also that oswald was a slender and pale-faced boy? dr. hartogs. yes. mr. liebeler. can you remember what particular thing it was about oswald that made you conclude that he had this severe personality disturbance? what led you to this diagnosis? dr. hartogs. it was his suspiciousness against adults, as far as i recall, his exquisite sensitivity in dealing with others, their opinions on his behalf. that is as far as i recall it. mr. liebeler. did you form an opinion as to his intellectual ability, his mental endowment? dr. hartogs. yes; but that i don't recall for sure. it was at least average at that time. mr. liebeler. i want to mark "exhibit " on the examination of dr. renatus hartogs, april , , in new york, a photostatic copy of a document entitled "youth house psychiatrist's report," indicating a report on case no. ; date of admission, april , , exactly years ago; date of examination, may , , with regard to a boy by the name of lee harvey oswald. i have initialed a copy of this report for identification purposes, doctor. would you initial it here next to my initials. (witness complies.) (photostatic copy of document entitled "youth house psychiatrist's report" marked "exhibit .") mr. liebeler. would you read the report and tell us if that is the report that you prepared at that time? dr. hartogs. that is right, that is it. interesting. mr. liebeler. doctor, is your recollection refreshed after looking at the report that you made at that time? dr. hartogs. yes, yes; that is the diagnosis, "personality pattern disturbance with schizoid features and passive-aggressive tendencies." yes. mr. liebeler. on page , at the very beginning of the report, you wrote at that time, did you not, "this -year-old, well-built, well-nourished boy was remanded to youth house for the first time on charge of truancy." dr. hartogs. yes. mr. liebeler. on the last page of the report there is a section entitled "summary for probation officer's report," is there not? dr. hartogs. yes. mr. liebeler. and you wrote there, about two or three sentences down, did you not, "we arrive therefore at the recommendation that he should be placed on probation under the condition that he seek help and guidance through contact with a child guidance clinic, where he should be treated preferably by a male psychiatrist who could substitute, to a certain degree at least, for the lack of father figure. at the same time, his mother should be urged to seek psychotherapeutic guidance through contact with a family agency. if this plan does not work out favorably and lee cannot cooperate in this treatment plan on an outpatient basis, removal from the home and placement could be resorted to at a later date, but it is our definite impression that treatment on probation should be tried out before the stricter and therefore possibly more harmful placement approach is applied to the case of this boy?" dr. hartogs. yes. it contradicts my recollection. mr. liebeler. yes. as you now read your report--and it is perfectly understandable that it is something that might not be remembered years after the event; i have no recollection of what i was doing years ago. dr. hartogs. i did not know that i made this ambiguous recommendation. mr. liebeler. as you read this report and reflect on this report and on the boy, oswald, as he is revealed through it, do you think that possibly it may have been somebody else that was involved in the seminar or are you convinced that it was oswald? dr. hartogs. no; that was oswald. mr. liebeler. that was oswald? dr. hartogs. yes. mr. liebeler. it would not appear from this report that you found any indication in the character of lee oswald at that time that would indicate this possible violent outburst, is there? dr. hartogs. i didn't mention it in the report, and i wouldn't recall it now. mr. liebeler. if you would have found it, you would have mentioned it in the report? dr. hartogs. i would have mentioned it; yes. i just implied it with the diagnosis of passive-aggressive. it means that we are dealing here with a youngster who was hiding behind a seemingly passive, detached facade aggression hostility. i mean this is what i thought was quite clear. i did not say that he had assaultive or homicidal potential. mr. liebeler. and in fact, as we read through the report, there is no mention of the words "incipient schizophrenic" or "potentially dangerous" in the report. dr. hartogs. no; i don't know where she has it from, but these are my words. i use it in other reports, but here it is not. mr. liebeler. "passive-aggressive tendencies" are fairly common in occurrence, are they not amongst people? dr. hartogs. no; it is not so common. it is the least common of the three personality traits. it is either a passive-dependent child or an aggressive child, and there is a passive-aggressive child. the passive-aggressive one is the least common. mr. liebeler. would you describe for us briefly what the passive-aggressive tendencies are, how do they manifest themselves, what do they indicate? dr. hartogs. they indicate a passive retiring surface facade, under which the child hides considerable hostility of various degrees. mr. liebeler. it would indicate to some extent a hiding of hostile tendencies toward others? dr. hartogs. yes. but usually in a passive-aggressive individual the aggressiveness can be triggered off and provoked in stress situations or if he nourishes his hate and his hostility for considerable length of time so that the passive surface facade all of a sudden explodes, this can happen. i said here that his fantasy life turned around the topics of omnipotence and power. he said also that "i dislike everybody," which is quite interesting, i think, also pertinent. mr. liebeler. you indicated that his mother was interviewed by the youth house social worker and is described as such-and-such. that would indicate, would it not, to you that you personally did not see the mother? dr. hartogs. that is right. i did not see the mother personally, but the information i have from the youth house social worker's report. mr. liebeler. you indicated in the second sentence of the summary for the probation officer's report, "no finding of neurological impairment or psychotic mental changes could be made," did you not? dr. hartogs. that is right. mr. liebeler. what do you mean when you say that "no finding of psychotic mental changes could be made"? dr. hartogs. this child was not suffering from delusions and hallucinations. mr. liebeler. would you couple that with the concept of neurological impairment which indicated no brain damage or anything of that sort which would cause hallucinations or disturbance of the personality? dr. hartogs. yes. mr. liebeler. do you remember the circumstances of oswald's home environment here in new york at the time he came? dr. hartogs. no. mr. liebeler. you have no recollection of that. if i were to tell you now that this boy came to new york with his mother, his father having died before he was born, to live with one of his older brothers, and that they lived with the brother here in manhattan on d street for a short time, after which friction developed, and they then moved to the bronx, the mother worked all day, to support the child, in a department store here in new york or in brooklyn, and the boy apparently found difficulty in his relations with others at school because he dressed differently, being from texas, they lived apparently on the grand concourse, which has been described to us at that time as being a generally middle-class jewish neighborhood, in which the boys did not dress in levis or quite so casually as oswald did; that he was given some difficulty because of the fact that he did not speak the way the people did in new york, he spoke with a southern texas accent and did not understand the patois of the city; assuming that those things were true, would that be a partial explanation, do you think, of the way that he reacted to you during the interview as reflected in your report? dr. hartogs. no; i would not say. this was not the personality disturbance which was the result of the situation of changes or conditioning; this was more deeper going. a personality pattern disturbance is a disturbance which has been existing since early childhood and has continued to exist through the individual's life. it is not the result of recent conditioning. mr. liebeler. after reading your report, are you able to form an opinion or did you form an opinion at that time of what might have caused this particular personality pattern disturbance in this boy? dr. hartogs. i mentioned it, i think, in the report, the lack of a father figure, the lack of a real family life, neglect by self-involved mother. yes; i think these are the three factors. mr. liebeler. after reviewing the report, do you have any other remarks that you think would be helpful to us in trying to understand what motivated this boy, assuming that he was the assassin of the president? dr. hartogs. no. mr. liebeler. that you haven't already talked about? dr. hartogs. no. mr. liebeler. i will ask the reporter to set forth the text of the report at the end of the deposition. i want to thank you very much for giving us the time that you have, and on behalf of the commission we want to tell you that we appreciate it very much. thanks very much, doctor. dr. hartogs. okay. "this year old, well-built, well-nourished boy was remanded to youth house for the first time on charge of truancy from school and of being beyond the control of his mother as far as school attendance is concerned. this is his first contact with the law. "he is--tense, withdrawn and evasive boy who dislikes intensely talking about himself and his feelings. he likes _the_ give the impression that he doesn't care about others and rather likes to keep himself so that he is not bothered and does not have to make the effort of communicating. it was difficult to penetrate the emotional wall behind which this boy hides--and he provided us with sufficient clues, permitting us to see intense anxiety, shyness, feelings of _awkwardness_ and insecurity as the main reasons for his withdrawal tendencies and solitary habits. lee told us: 'i don't want a friend and i don't like to talk to people.' he describes himself as stubborn and according to his own saying likes to say 'no.' strongly resistive and negativistic features were thus noticed--but psychotic mental content was denied and no indication of psychotic mental changes was arrived at. "lee is a youngster with superior mental endowment functioning presently on the bright normal range of mental efficiency. his abstract thinking capacity and his vocabulary are well developed. no retardation in school subjects could be found in spite of his truancy from school. lee limits his interests to reading magazines and looking at the television all day long. he dislikes to play with others or to face the learning situation in school. on the other hand he claims that he is 'very poor' in all school subjects and would need remedial help. the discrepancy between the claims and his actual attainment level show the low degree of self-evaluation and self-esteem at which this boy has arrived presently, mainly due to feelings of general inadequacy and emotional discouragement. "lee is the product of a broken home--as his father died before he was born. two older brothers are presently in the united states army--while the mother supports herself and lee as an insurance broker. this occupation makes it impossible for her to provide adequate supervision of lee and to make him attend school regularly. lee is intensely dissatisfied with his present way of living, but feels that the only way in which he can avoid feeling too unhappy is to deny to himself competition with other children or expressing his needs and wants. lee claims that he can get very angry at his mother and occasionally has hit her, particularly when she returns home without having bought food for supper. on such occasions she leaves it to lee to prepare some food with what he can find in the kitchen. he feels that his mother rejects him and really has never cared very much for him. he expressed the similar feeling with regard to his brothers who live pretty much on their own without showing any brotherly interest in him. lee has vivid fantasy life, turning around the topics of omnipotence and power, through which he tries to compensate for his present shortcomings and frustrations. he did not enjoy being _together_ with other children and when we asked him whether he prefers the company of boys to _the one_ of girls--he answered--'i dislike everybody.' his occupational goal is to join the army. his mother was interviewed by the youth house social worker and is described by her as a 'defensive, rigid, self-involved and intellectually alert' woman who finds it exceedingly difficult to understand lee's personality and his withdrawing behavior. she does not understand that lee's withdrawal is a form of violent but silent protest against his neglect by her--and represents his reaction to a complete absence of any real family life. she seemed to be interested enough in the welfare of this boy to be willing to seek guidance and help as regards her own difficulties and her management of lee. "neurological examination remained essentially negative with the exception of slightly impaired hearing in the left ear, resulting from a mastoidectomy in . history of convulsions and accidental injuries to the skull was denied. family history is negative for mental disease. "_summary for probation officer's report_: "this -year-old, well-built boy, has superior mental resources and functions only slightly below his capacity level in spite of chronic truancy from school--which brought him into youth house. no finding of neurological impairment or psychotic mental changes could be made. lee has to be diagnosed as 'personality pattern disturbance with schizoid features and passive-aggressive tendencies.' lee has to be seen as an emotionally, quite disturbed youngster who suffers under the impact of really existing emotional isolation and deprivation; lack of affection, absence of family life and rejection by a self-involved and conflicted mother. although lee denies that he is in need of any _other_ form of help other than 'remedial' one, we gained the definite impression that lee can be reached through contact with an understanding and very patient psychotherapist and if he could be drawn at the same time into group psychotherapy. we arrive therefore at the recommendation that he should be placed on probation under the condition that he seek help and guidance through contact with a child guidance clinic, where he should be treated preferably by a male psychiatrist who could substitute, to a certain degree at least, for the lack of father figure. at the same time, his mother should be urged to seek psychotherapeutic guidance through contact with a family agency. if this plan does not work out favorably and lee cannot cooperate in this treatment plan on an out-patient basis, removal from the home and placement could be resorted to at a later date, but it is our definite impression that treatment on probation should be tried out before the stricter and therefore possibly more harmful placement approach is applied to the case of this boy. the big brother movement could be undoubtedly of tremendous value in this case and lee should be urged to join the organized group activities of his community, such as provided by the pal or ymca of his neighborhood." testimony of evelyn grace strickman siegel the testimony of evelyn grace strickman siegel was taken at : p.m., on april , , at the u.s. courthouse, foley square, new york, n.y., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. evelyn grace strickman siegel, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: mr. liebeler. mrs. siegel, my name is wesley j. liebeler. i am a member of the legal staff of the president's commission investigating the assassination of president kennedy. staff members have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the commission pursuant to authority granted to the commission by executive order no. , dated november , , and joint resolution of congress no. . pursuant to the authority so granted to it, the commission has promulgated certain rules governing the taking of testimony from witnesses, which provide, among other things, that each witness is entitled to days' notice before he or she is required to give testimony. i know you didn't get days' notice of this, but each witness also has the power to waive that notice, and i assume that you will be willing to waive that notice, and go ahead with the testimony since you are here. is that correct? mrs. siegel. yes. that's correct. mr. liebeler. we want to advise you also that the rules provide that if you wish to have a copy of your transcript, you may have it at your own expense, at such time as the commission releases the transcripts, releases the testimony, and that you are entitled to counsel if you wish. you don't have counsel here, and i assume you do not wish it. mrs. siegel. no. i do not wish it. will i be advised when the transcripts are released? mr. liebeler. yes. the commission understands that you were working as a social worker in and , at which time lee harvey oswald and his mother lived here in new york city. before we go into the details of that, i would like to have you state your full name for the record, if you would. mrs. siegel. evelyn grace strickman siegel. mr. liebeler. where do you live? mrs. siegel. river road, teaneck. mr. liebeler. where were you born? mrs. siegel. new york city. mr. liebeler. and am i correct in understanding that you did work in new york as a social worker? mrs. siegel. that's correct. mr. liebeler. when did you begin working as a social worker? mrs. siegel. in march of . mr. liebeler. how long did you continue in that work? mrs. siegel. i'm still working as a social worker. mr. liebeler. in the city? mrs. siegel. yes; on a part-time basis. mr. liebeler. would you outline briefly for us your educational background? mrs. siegel. a.b., hunter college; m.s., columbia university, school of social work. mr. liebeler. and in , at the time that you did have contact with the oswalds, you had been doing social work for about years; is that correct? mrs. siegel. that's correct. mr. liebeler. for whom did you work as a social worker? mrs. siegel. youth house. mr. liebeler. are you still working for youth house? mrs. siegel. no; i'm not. mr. liebeler. when did you begin working for youth house and when did you terminate your employment with youth house? mrs. siegel. i began working for them in january of , and i left in august--well, i left youth house for girls, which is part of the same institution setup, in august of . mr. liebeler. would you describe for us briefly the nature of the youth house as it existed in ? mrs. siegel. in what aspect? mr. liebeler. what kind of institution was it? what kind of people went there? what was done with them there? will you tell me? mrs. siegel. it was a remand center for boys, delinquent boys who had gotten into trouble with the court and were remanded to youth house for a brief period of diagnostic study. upon their reappearance in court, so far as i understood it, those children who had been assigned for diagnostic study went back to court accompanied by a report from youth house, which was given to the judge. mr. liebeler. what kind of a report was this? what was in it? what did it say? mrs. siegel. a full-scale diagnostic study includes a social history taken by the social worker after one or several interviews with the boy and an interview with a parent, as well as an interview with the youth house psychiatrist; that is, the boy was interviewed by the youth house psychiatrist. all this material was then typed up and sent to court. mr. liebeler. who was the youth house psychiatrist? mrs. siegel. dr. renatus hartogs. mr. liebeler. did dr. hartogs personally interview each boy, or were there other psychiatrists who sometimes interviewed the boys and reported, do you know? mrs. siegel. first of all, let me say that not every boy was seen by a psychiatrist or a social worker. also, the caseload was shared from time to time by other psychiatrists on the staff of youth house, not by dr. hartogs alone. mr. liebeler. there was a report of the psychiatrist, then, a report of the social worker, and were there any other reports of any other workers, generally speaking, attached to the court report? mrs. siegel. incorporated into the social worker's report was a report from those workers on the floor where the boy lived, the counselors, so to speak, brief reports as to his behavior and so on. mr. liebeler. those would be given to the social workers; is that correct? mrs. siegel. that's right. mr. liebeler. and used as a basis for the social worker's report? mrs. siegel. not as a basis for it but incorporated into it. mr. liebeler. so as a general proposition, the reports of people from the floor would be before the social worker when she prepared her report and would usually be reflected in the report of the social worker; is that correct? mrs. siegel. that's correct. mr. liebeler. do you have any recollection of any contact during the course of your work as a social worker for youth house with lee harvey oswald? mrs. siegel. after the president's assassination, the name meant nothing to me. as the biographies in the papers started to appear, and it was said that this boy was in youth house in , i believe it was, i had a vague stirring of memory, and i then said to my husband that somehow i have a mental picture of this youngster. at the time i attributed him not to me but to another worker. i somehow thought that he was assigned to another worker. but i had a picture of what he looked like, and the only reason that i think i remember him is that he was from texas, and he was distinctive because he had an accent that was different from most of the children i saw, and he wore blue jeans, which most of our kids didn't wear in those days. and that was all i remembered about it. i remembered absolutely nothing about him at all. mr. liebeler. and your recollection of lee oswald is still the same as it was at that time? mrs. siegel. sitting in the corner of my office, a slim, skinny little boy. mr. liebeler. that is to say, you have not been able to refresh your recollection? mrs. siegel. no. mr. liebeler. and improve it at all? mrs. siegel. no. mr. liebeler. since the---- mrs. siegel. no. i must have seen between and boys a year in those days. i don't remember. mr. liebeler. do you remember talking to his mother at all? mrs. siegel. no; i do not. i don't even know if i saw her. i am terribly curious to see my report again. mr. liebeler. how long do you know dr. hartogs? mrs. siegel. well, we were associated over a period of from to -- years. mr. liebeler. have you seen him since that time? mrs. siegel. no; we don't see each other socially at all. mr. liebeler. and you haven't spoken to him? mrs. siegel. no; i haven't. mr. liebeler. about the oswald case; is that right? mrs. siegel. no; i haven't seen him since i left youth house. mr. liebeler. do you have any recollection that from time to time the psychiatrist, dr. hartogs, would give seminars as a technique to instruct or provide examples to the social workers and perhaps the psychologists and other employees of youth house? mrs. siegel. well, i don't remember that dr. hartogs gave the seminars. we all participated in them, social workers and psychiatrists. i remember them vividly. i was a participant, myself. mr. liebeler. i didn't mean to characterize dr. hartogs' role as being the sole role. mrs. siegel. oh, no. mr. liebeler. but there were seminars? mrs. siegel. oh, there were seminars. certainly. i misunderstood you. yes; there were seminars which took place weekly. mr. liebeler. do you have any recollection that lee oswald was the subject of one of these seminars? mrs. siegel. no; i do not. mr. liebeler. do you have any recollection of what the reason for oswald's being remanded to youth house was? mrs. siegel. i only read in the paper that it was truancy. mr. liebeler. and you have no independent recollection about it otherwise at all? mrs. siegel. no; i do not. mr. liebeler. i show you a photostatic copy of a document entitled "youth house, social worker's report," which is dated bronx, may , , referring to case no. . this report indicates that the social worker involved was evelyn strickman, which would at that time have been you; is that correct? mrs. siegel. yes. mr. liebeler. and still is? mrs. siegel. yes. mr. liebeler. i hand you this document, and tell me if that is the report which you prepared in connection with your work with lee harvey oswald. are you able to state whether or not that is the report you prepared? mrs. siegel. this is indubitably mine. mr. liebeler. these reports were prepared shortly after your contact with the boy, with the mother, or prepared from notes that you made of the interview, were they not? mrs. siegel. oh, yes; they were prepared probably during the time he was still at youth house. mr. liebeler. the point being that the report would accurately reflect the interview that you had both with lee oswald and with his mother? mrs. siegel. as accurately as i could; yes. mr. liebeler. and it was prepared on or about the time that you conducted the interview, was it not? mrs. siegel. correct, yes; and shortly afterward. (document marked "exhibit .") mr. liebeler. i have marked the photostatic copy of the exhibit as exhibit to the deposition of evelyn strickman siegel, april , , and i have initialed it for purposes of identification. i would ask if you would initial it also so that we can make sure that we are talking about the same thing. (witness complies.) mr. liebeler. i show you another report, which upon examination you will note contains much of the same material as is set forth in the exhibit no. , and ask you if you recognize the sheaf of photostatic copies which i have just shown you and if you can tell me what they are. mrs. siegel. this is my report. just a minute. this is what i dictated into the record before i pulled from it the essential material which should go into the report to the court. mr. liebeler. so that the photostatic document that i have just shown you was prepared before exhibit no. , and closer in time to your actual contact with the boy and with the mother? mrs. siegel. this is correct. mr. liebeler. the one you have in your hand? mrs. siegel. right. mr. liebeler. and from the document you hold in your hand you prepared exhibit no. , which is the formal report which was submitted to the court along with the report of dr. hartogs and perhaps of other personnel; is that correct? mrs. siegel. this is correct. mr. liebeler. we will mark the document to which we have just been referring, which is captioned "oswald, lee harvey--charge: truancy," and has "youth house" written at the top of it, and which consists of pages, the last of which has the typewritten name "evelyn strickman" and the date - - , and bears your initials--does it not? mrs. siegel. those are the initials of marion cohen, who was casework supervisor at youth house at that time. that shows she read it. mr. liebeler. she read it also? mrs. siegel. yes. mr. liebeler. and we will mark the document exhibit no. . (document marked "exhibit .") mrs. siegel. wait a minute. let me just correct that. marion would have written her own initials. that isn't my handwriting. i never made an "e" like that. i don't know who did that. mr. liebeler. you have no question, however, that this is the report prepared by you? mrs. siegel. no; i have absolutely no question. this is my dictation into the record. i know--that was sadie skolnick. that was the undersupervisor at the time. that is who that s.s. is. mr. liebeler. i have initialed exhibit . so that we are sure we are talking about the same exhibit, would you initial it also, please? mrs. siegel. sure. [witness complies.] mr. liebeler. exhibit consists of six pages; is that correct? mrs. siegel. yes. mr. liebeler. after reviewing the report which you prepared in connection with lee oswald back in , is your recollection refreshed so that you could add anything other than that which is already set forth in the written report which you prepared at that time? mrs. siegel. no; i can't add a thing to that. mr. liebeler. would you say after reviewing the report that you prepared at that time that this boy gave any indication to you back in , that is, as indicated in your report, that he had any violent tendencies or tendencies in this direction, in the direction of violence? mrs. siegel. well, i can only say from what i wrote in that report that apparently this was a youngster who was teetering on the edge of serious emotional illness. now, whether that included violence i am not prepared to say. mr. liebeler. you couldn't say that one way or the other from the material set forth in your report; is that correct? mrs. siegel. yes; i would say that is correct. mr. liebeler. can you think of anything else that you would like to add to the record after reviewing these reports that you think might be helpful to the commission in its work? mrs. siegel. i am sorry, there is nothing i can add. mr. liebeler. i have no more questions. i want to thank you very much on behalf of the commission. mrs. siegel. not at all. it is a real tragedy. mr. liebeler. thank you very much, mrs. siegel. mrs. siegel. yes; not at all. thank you. goodbye. testimony of nelson delgado the testimony of nelson delgado was taken on april , , at the u.s. courthouse, foley square, new york, n.y., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. nelson delgado, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: mr. liebeler. my name is wesley j. liebeler. i am a member of the legal staff of the president's commission investigating the assassination of president kennedy. staff members have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the commission pursuant to authority granted to the commission by executive order no. , dated november , , and joint resolution of congress no. . under the commission's rules for the taking of testimony, each witness is to be provided with a copy of the executive order and of the joint resolution, and a copy of the rules that the commission has adopted governing the taking of testimony from witnesses. the commission will provide you copies of those documents. i cannot do it at this point because i do not have them with me, but we will provide you with copies of the documents to which i have referred. under the commission's rules for the taking of testimony, each witness is entitled to days' notice before he is required to come in and give testimony. i don't think you had days' notice. mr. delgado. no. mr. liebeler. but each witness can waive that notice requirement if he wishes, and i assume that you would be willing to waive that notice requirement since you are here; is that correct? mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. we want to inquire of you this morning concerning the association that the commission understands you had with lee harvey oswald during the time that he was a member of the united states marine corps. the commission has been advised that you also were a member of the united states marine corps and were stationed with oswald in santa ana, calif., for a period of time. mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. before we get into the details of that, would you state your full name for the record, please? mr. delgado. nelson delgado. mr. liebeler. you are now in the united states army; is that correct? mr. delgado. that is correct. mr. liebeler. what is your rank? mr. delgado. specialist . mr. liebeler. what is your serial number? mr. delgado. ra . mr. liebeler. where are you stationed? mr. delgado. i am stationed at delta battery, th missile battalion, st artillery, in hazlet, n.j. mr. liebeler. how long have you been in the army? mr. delgado. i joined the army on november , . mr. liebeler. what kind of work do you do in the army? mr. delgado. i am a , which means that i am a cook, with a linguist digit, which means i can speak and write spanish fluently. that is what that last in that digit means. mr. liebeler. where did you go into the army? mr. delgado. i went into the army at fort ord, calif. mr. liebeler. and would you briefly tell us the training that you received after you went into the army and the places at which you were stationed from the time you went into the army up to the present time? mr. delgado. well, in , november , i reported at fort ord. approximately days after i reported there i received orders for germany. i had no basic training because of my marine corps basic training took care of that. december the th, th, around there, i left for germany. and i arrived in germany, and i served with headquarters battery, th missile battalion, th artillery, apo , at baumholder. germany. mr. liebeler. how long were you stationed in germany? mr. delgado. i was stationed there approximately years and a day. mr. liebeler. were you stationed with the same outfit all that time? mr. delgado. no. six months of the time i was with them; then i was transferred to a line battery, c battery, same missile battalion, same artillery, and i was for a while the old man's driver, the captain's driver; and then i was--i asked for a transfer to the messhall so i could get advanced in my rating, and i was put in the messhall, then promoted there also, and i have been a cook since then. mr. liebeler. did you stay with the c battery until you left germany? mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. approximately when did you leave germany? mr. delgado. december the th. december the th. mr. liebeler. ? mr. delgado. , right. mr. liebeler. where were you stationed after that? mr. delgado. fort hancock, nj.; and from there i was put in the line battery, delta battery. mr. liebeler. and that is where you are assigned at the present time? mr. delgado. that is right. mr. liebeler. are you working now as a cook? mr. delgado. that is right. mr. liebeler. you are also the mess steward of your messhall; is that correct? mr. delgado. no, not mess steward; first cook. mr. liebeler. first cook? mr. delgado. right. mr. liebeler. so you are not in charge of the messhall? mr. delgado. no; i am in charge of the personnel that work the day i am working. mr. liebeler. you mentioned that your mos, i believe it is called, your military occupation specialty, has an indication that you are qualified to speak spanish or another language; is that correct? mr. delgado. right. mr. liebeler. did you take tests while you were in the army to establish your proficiency in the spanish language? mr. delgado. yes, i took the language proficiency test, and also the ocs test, the regular test they give you when you first go into the service, and i passed them all. it's in my files, my military records. mr. liebeler. did you pass the spanish proficiency test? mr. delgado. yes. in fact i was offered to be sent to monterey language school. mr. liebeler. to continue your studies in connection with the spanish language? mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. you took the spanish proficiency test when you came into the army at fort ord; is that correct? mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. where were you born? mr. delgado. i was born in brooklyn, n.y., in . mr. liebeler. at what address? where? mr. delgado. i believe it was kings county hospital. mr. liebeler. your parents still reside in brooklyn? mr. delgado. th street. that's what my address was during the marine corps, but right now the neighborhood is tore down, so there's no record of it now. mr. liebeler. your parents reside in brooklyn? mr. delgado. no. my parents are divorced. one lives in puerto rico, and my mother lives in california. mr. liebeler. you lived at the address in brooklyn that you just gave me from the time you were born until the time you went into the marine corps; is that correct? mr. delgado. that's correct. mr. liebeler. tell us briefly where you went to school. mr. delgado. that's pretty hard to keep track of, because i was like a yo-yo, back and forth from one parent to the other. but i went to school in p.s. no. . mr. liebeler. in brooklyn? mr. delgado. in brooklyn, until the third grade, and i was transferred. i went to california with my mother. i was there in the park avenue grammar school from the third grade to the fifth. mr. liebeler. what city in california? mr. delgado. wilmington, calif. and then i went back to new york, back to p.s. no. for the th grade to the th, graduated from there, went to public school, dewey junior high school--i don't know what p.s. it is--from the th grade to the th and then went back to california and went to wilmington junior high school from the th to the--about the th grade, and the th grade i went back to brooklyn into manual training high school and dropped out after the th grade. mr. liebeler. you have not graduated from high school? mr. delgado. no. i have my high school graduation through usafi. mr. liebeler. that is the united states armed forces institute; is that correct? mr. delgado. that's correct. mr. liebeler. when you dropped out of school here in brooklyn, did you then join the marine corps? mr. delgado. no. i held a job for a while at van dyk & reeves, on d street and d avenue, in brooklyn, n.y. mr. liebeler. what kind of a job was that? mr. delgado. it was just a regular laborer at an olive factory, making maraschino cherries and olives and so forth. and it lasted about - / months, and i joined the marine corps. mr. liebeler. do both of your parents speak spanish? mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. are they both from puerto rico originally? mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. approximately when did they come from puerto rico? mr. delgado. my father came when he was roughly years of age. my mother came when she was about . mr. liebeler. approximately hold old are your parents now? mr. delgado. my father is around . my mother is about . mr. liebeler. where did you join the marine corps? mr. delgado. down at whitehall street, in new york city. mr. liebeler. what training did you receive? where were you sent? mr. delgado. well, when we left new york i was sent to parris island, s.c., for basic training. upon completion of that, i was sent to camp le jeune, n.c., for intensive training. then i received schooling in electronics school at jacksonville naval air station, jacksonville, fla. mr. liebeler. can you remember when you were there at jacksonville? mr. delgado. i was there in --the the beginning of . mr. liebeler. what is the exact title of the school that you went to? do you remember? mr. delgado. electronics school is all i can remember. from there, upon graduation from there, i received my choice of training, which was aircraft control and warning, and i was sent to school at biloxi air force base, miss., and there i went to aircraft control and warning school there, and it lasted about weeks. upon completion there and graduation, i received my orders for marine air control squadron , santa ana, calif. mr. liebeler. approximately when did you arrive at santa ana? mr. delgado. the beginning of . mr. liebeler. did you make the acquaintance of lee harvey oswald at any time prior to the time that you arrived at santa ana? mr. delgado. no. mr. liebeler. you didn't know oswald while you were in school at biloxi or jacksonville? mr. delgado. no. he was past that already. mr. liebeler. oswald had been to these schools? mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. did you learn subsequently that oswald had been in school in jacksonville and biloxi? mr. delgado. all of us in mos knew that he had been there. mr. liebeler. for the benefit of the record, mos stands for military occupation specialty. is that right? mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. and the mos number that you have just referred to was what? mr. delgado. airborne electronics operators is about the equivalent, i guess. mr. liebeler. airborne electronics operator? mr. delgado. yes; our job was the surveillance of aircraft in distress, control of intercepts and approaches, and mostly air surveillance and help of aircraft running into problems. mr. liebeler. how long were you stationed at santa ana? mr. delgado. from , i would say, until november , , when i got discharged. mr. liebeler. so you were at santa ana after you completed your training, throughout your entire marine corps career? mr. delgado. that's right. mr. liebeler. until the time you were discharged? mr. delgado. that's right. mr. liebeler. did you have access to classified information of any sort in the course of your work at santa ana? mr. delgado. yes; we all had access to information, classified information. i believe it was classified secret. we all had secret clearances. there was some information there as to different codes and challenges that we had to give to aircraft and challenges and so on. mr. liebeler. in other words, if i can understand correctly the nature of your work, you actually worked in a control room? mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. observing radar screens? mr. delgado. that's right. mr. liebeler. and when the radar screen would pick up an aircraft, you would then challenge that aircraft? mr. delgado. right. mr. liebeler. and it would have to identify itself? mr. delgado. that's true. mr. liebeler. and the code or signals that you sent to the aircraft requesting it to identify itself were classified information? mr. delgado. that's right, along with the range capabilities of the radar sets and their blindspots and so forth and so on. you know, each site has blindspots, and we know the degrees where our blindspots are and who covers us and that information. that's considered secret, what outfit covers us and things like that. mr. liebeler. and what was the latter---- mr. delgado. what outfit covers us, that we can see. and as i say, the capabilities of the radars, as i said before. mr. liebeler. how far out they can reach? mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. and pick up an aircraft? mr. delgado. yes; and how high---- mr. liebeler. and how high---- mr. delgado. and how low we can catch them and where we can't catch them. mr. liebeler. and i suppose all the men who worked with the radar sets knew these things? mr. delgado. they all knew. what do they call it now--authentication charts, which is also a secret. mr. liebeler. what is the nature of these charts? mr. delgado. authorization chart is, if we receive an order over the phone, over the headsets--authentication. pardon me. that's the word. let's say this order, we can question it. what it actually amounts to, he has to authenticate it for us. now, he should have the same table or code in front of him that i have. he gives me a code. i would look it up in my authentication chart, decipher it, and i could tell whether or not this man has the same thing i am using. and this changes from hour to hour, see. there's no chance of it--and day to day, also. mr. liebeler. so that the information, the code itself would not be of any particular value to the enemy, since it is changed? mr. delgado. it's changed from day to day; no. mr. liebeler. did there come a time when you were stationed at santa ana that you met lee harvey oswald? mr. delgado. yes; in the beginning of . he arrived at our outfit. i didn't take no particular notice of him at the time, but later on we had--we started talking, and we got to know each other quite well. this is all before christmas, before i took my leave. mr. liebeler. this was in or ? mr. delgado. . and we had basic interests. he liked spanish, and he talked to me for a while in spanish or tried to, and since nobody bothered, you know--i was kind of a loner, myself, you know. i didn't associate with too many people. mr. liebeler. how old were you at that time? mr. delgado. i was -- years of age; or . mr. liebeler. about the same age as oswald? mr. delgado. right. he was the same age as i was. and nothing really developed until i went on leave----oh, yes. at the time he was--he was commenting on the fight that castro was having at sierra madres at the beginning, just about the turn of . when i went on leave, it just so happened that my leave coincided with the first of january, when castro took over. so when i got back, he was the first one to see me, and he said, "well, you took a leave and went there and helped them, and they all took over." it was a big joke. so we got along pretty well. he had trouble in one of the huts, and he got transferred to mine. mr. liebeler. do you know what trouble he had in the other hut? mr. delgado. well, the way i understand it, he wouldn't hold his own. came time for cleanup, and general cleanliness of the barracks, he didn't want to participate, and he would be griping all the time. so the sergeant that was in charge of that hut asked to have him put out, you know. so consequently, they put him into my hut. mr. liebeler. what were these huts? were they quonset huts? mr. delgado. quonset huts, right. mr. liebeler. and they served as barracks, right? mr. delgado. right. mr. liebeler. how many men---- mr. delgado. each quonset hut was divided in half. now, in each half lived six men, two to a room. they were divided into two rooms with a bath room each side, each half of the quonset hut. i was living in one room. oswald in the other room. and then we had our barracks, we had quite a bit of turnovers, because guys kept coming in and being transferred. him and i seemed to be the only ones staying in there. and we would meet during working hours and talk. he was a complete believer that our way of government was not quite right, that--i don't know how to say it; it's been so long. he was for, not the communist way of life, the castro way of life, the way he was going to lead his people. he didn't think our government had too much to offer. he never said any subversive things or tried to take any classified information that i know of out or see anybody about it. as i said to the men that interviewed me before, we went to the range at one time, and he didn't show no particular aspects of being a sharpshooter at all. mr. liebeler. he didn't seem to be particularly proficient with the rifle; is that correct? mr. delgado. that's right. mr. liebeler. what kind of rifle did you use? mr. delgado. he had an m- . we all had m- 's mr. liebeler. carbine or rifle? mr. delgado. the m- rifle. mr. liebeler. did you have them in your quonset hut at all times? mr. delgado. no, sir; we had them in the armory, in the quonset hut designated as the armory. and we went there periodically to clean them up. and at the time in santa ana, he was with me at one time---- mr. liebeler. each man was assigned a particular rifle; is that correct? mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. did you have to use the rifles to stand inspection? mr. delgado. that's right. mr. liebeler. do you remember whether or not oswald kept his rifle in good shape, clean? mr. delgado. he kept it mediocre. he always got gigged for his rifle. mr. liebeler. he did? mr. delgado. yes; very seldom did he pass an inspection without getting gigged for one thing or another. mr. liebeler. with respect to his rifle? mr. delgado. with respect to his rifle. he didn't spend as much time as the rest of us did in the armory cleaning it up. he would, when he was told to. otherwise, he wouldn't come out by himself to clean it. he was basically a man that complained quite frequently. mr. liebeler. do you think he complained more than the other marines? mr. delgado. well, yes; a little bit more. anything, anything that they told him to do, he found a way to argue it to a point where both him and the man giving him the order both got disgusted and mad at each other, and while the rest of us were working, he's arguing with the man in charge. for him there was always another way of doing things, an easier way for him to get something done. mr. liebeler. he didn't take too well to orders that were given to him? mr. delgado. no; he didn't. mr. liebeler. did you ever notice that he responded better if he were asked to do something instead of ordered to do something? mr. delgado. right. mr. liebeler. would you say that? mr. delgado. yes; well, that's what i worked with him. i never called him lee or harvey or oswald. it was always oz. mr. liebeler. oz? mr. delgado. ozzie. i would say, "oz, how about taking care of the bathroom today?" fine, he would do it. but as far as somebody from the outside saying, "all right, oswald, i want you to take and police up that area"--"why? why do i have to do it? why are you always telling me to do it?" well, it was an order, he actually had to do it, but he didn't understand it like that. mr. liebeler. how long were you and oswald stationed together at santa ana? mr. delgado. basically there were months, from january to the date of my discharge or the date that he took off. he got discharged before i did. mr. liebeler. august or september , approximately? mr. delgado. , right. mr. liebeler. and when were you discharged? mr. delgado. i was discharged november , -- . mr. liebeler. did oswald tell you that he had been overseas prior to the time he came to santa ana? mr. delgado. no; he didn't tell me has was overseas. i got that from the fellows who knew him overseas, atsugi, japan, and he was with the marine air control squadron, i believe it was, at atsugi. there was a couple of guys stationed with him. mr. liebeler. do you remember their names? mr. delgado. no; i don't. i think one of them was dijonovich. there was two of them stationed with him overseas. mr. liebeler. did you ever learn whether oswald had been any place else overseas other than atsugi? mr. delgado. no. mr. liebeler. you never heard that he was stationed in the philippines for a while? mr. delgado. no; not that. mr. liebeler. did you know whether any of these other men that had been stationed overseas with oswald had been to the philippines? mr. delgado. no; if they went on a problem from there and got aboard a small carrier, they probably may have taken him, say, to hawaii or the philippines or guam, something like that, for maneuvers, or okinawa. mr. liebeler. but you had no knowledge of it at the time? mr. delgado. no. mr. liebeler. you were about to tell us, before i went into this question of how long you and oswald were together, about the rifle practice that you engaged in. would you tell us about that in as much detail as you can remember? mr. delgado. we went out to the field, to the rifle range, and before we set out we had set up a pot. high score would get this money; second highest, and so forth down to about the fifth man that was high. mr. liebeler. how many men were there? mr. delgado. oh, in our company there was about roughly men, to men, and i would say about of us were in the pot. all low ranking em's, though. by that i mean corporal or below. none of the sergeants were asked to join. nine times out of ten they weren't firing, just watching you. they mostly watched to see who was the best firer on the line. mr. liebeler. you say there were about men involved in this pot? mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. and you say that oswald finished fifth from the highest? mr. delgado. no; he didn't even place there. he didn't get no money at all. he just barely got his score, which i think was about , i think it was, just barely sharpshooter. mr. liebeler. sharpshooter is the minimum---- mr. delgado. minimum. mr. liebeler. rank? mr. delgado. it's broken down into three categories: sharpshooters--no; pardon me, take that back; it's marksman is the lowest, sharpshooters, and experts. and then oswald had a marksman's badge, which was just a plain, little thing here which stated "marksman" on it. mr. liebeler. and that was the lowest one? mr. delgado. that was the lowest. well, that was qualifying; then there was nothing, which meant you didn't qualify. mr. liebeler. did you fire with oswald? mr. delgado. right; i was in the same line. by that i mean we were on line together, the same time, but not firing at the same position, but at the same time, and i remember seeing his. it was a pretty big joke, because he got a lot of "maggie's drawers," you know, a lot of misses, but he didn't give a darn. mr. liebeler. missed the target completely? mr. delgado. he just qualified, that's it. he wasn't as enthusiastic as the rest of us. we all loved--liked, you know, going to the range. mr. liebeler. my recollection of how the rifle ranges worked is that the troops divided up into two different groups, one of which operates the targets. mr. delgado. right. mr. liebeler. and the other one fires? mr. delgado. right. mr. liebeler. when you said before that you were in the same line as oswald, you meant that you fired at the same time that he did? mr. delgado. right. and then all of us went to the pits, our particular lines; then we went to the pits, you know. mr. liebeler. oswald worked the pits with you, the same time you did? mr. delgado. right. and he was a couple of targets down. it was very comical to see, because he had the other guy pulling the target down, you know, and he will take and maybe gum it once in a while or run the disk up; but he had the other guy pulling it up and bringing it down, you know. he wasn't hardly going to exert himself. mr. liebeler. do you remember approximately how far away oswald was in the line from you when you fired? mr. delgado. yes; he was just one over from me. mr. liebeler. the next one, the very next one? mr. delgado. not the next one, but the one over from that. mr. liebeler. there was one man between you and oswald? mr. delgado. right. mr. liebeler. did you talk to him about his performance with the rifle at that time? mr. delgado. not during that day, because i was mostly interested in my picking up the money, you know, and i wasn't worrying about what he was doing; in fact if he wasn't bringing it in, i didn't care, you know. i didn't want no competition. mr. liebeler. did you win any of the money? mr. delgado. oh, yes. mr. liebeler. how many of the marines won? mr. delgado. just five of us. mr. liebeler. just five? mr. delgado. right. mr. liebeler. and which one were you? mr. delgado. i was--i shot about . i came in about third. mr. liebeler. my recollection of the rifle range from the time i was in the army is that sometimes the scores that were reported---- mr. delgado. were erroneous. mr. liebeler. were erroneous. has that been your experience also? mr. delgado. oh, yes; if there is not close supervision. by this, that you have your buddy in back of you, he could be penciling in your score; if you get a , he will put a in there. it doesn't work that way if you go to fire for record, like we did, because they have an nco line and they got a pit nco. now they have a man at that target down there keeping score, and they also have a man back here keeping score, and when both those score cards are turned into the line officer, they both better correspond, and you have no way of communicating with the man down the pit. mr. liebeler. was that the way it was handled when you fired this time? mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. so there was very little, if any, chance that oswald's score could have been fixed up; is that correct? mr. delgado. the only time you could fix up the score, when you go down for just straight firing, what they call battery column firing, and there is nobody to supervise, you pencil yourself. the marines is pretty strict about that when you go for line firing. they want both scorecards to correspond with each other. mr. liebeler. is this the only time that you fired---- mr. delgado. right. mr. liebeler. with oswald during the time that you were stationed at santa ana? mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. you mentioned before in your testimony that you had been interviewed prior to this time? mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. by whom? mr. delgado. fbi agents. mr. liebeler. do you remember their names? mr. delgado. no; i don't. mr. liebeler. do you remember approximately when they talked to you? mr. delgado. they talked to me about five times. mr. liebeler. about five times? mr. delgado. right. mr. liebeler. could it have been three times? mr. delgado. one is at home, twice in the battery--no, four times, because they visited me once at home, twice at the battery, the same fellow; then he brought another man in. yes; four times. two different fellows. and one time one was a spanish--i don't know, i guess he was a spanish interpreter. mr. liebeler. he spoke spanish? mr. delgado. he spoke castilian spanish. mr. liebeler. castilian spanish? mr. delgado. right. mr. liebeler. that is a different kind of spanish from the kind you speak? mr. delgado. all right. he could go out here in new york city and go down in spanish harlem and he would be lost. i mean it would be all right if percent of the spanish people down there were college graduates, they could understand him. they don't speak that type of spanish there, nor do they speak it in a lot of other spanish countries. it's like speaking the english as spoken in england, you know. you can't expect a man from georgia to try and understand a man from england the way he speaks pure english. mr. liebeler. did you have difficulty in understanding this agent when he spoke to you in spanish? mr. delgado. no. see, i took it in high school. but he had difficulty in interpreting my spanish. mr. liebeler. so you think he was likely to have gotten the opinion that you weren't very proficient in spanish? mr. delgado. right. but i would be willing to challenge him if he and i go down to spanish harlem and see who gets across faster. mr. liebeler. did you form an impression of these fbi agents when they talked to you? were they---- mr. delgado. the one fellow, the older one, white-haired fellow, he was a nice guy. and the two other ones, i never seen them before, two different fellows. mr. liebeler. how many agents talked to you altogether? mr. delgado. i don't know if this spanish guy was an agent or not. he never introduced himself. but there was this white-haired fellow, and then two different men; three men altogether, not including this spanish guy. mr. liebeler. so there would have been four men altogether? mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. you are quite sure about that? mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. can you tell me approximately when these people talked to you? mr. delgado. the first time i came in contact was, let's see, about january was the first time i was contacted by the white-haired fellow. mr. liebeler. was he the fellow who spoke spanish? mr. delgado. no; he was the man from the red bank office, i believe he said he was, red bank, n.j. and then weeks later he came to the battery to see me, about a month later he came back with this spanish fellow, and about another month these other two fellows came in. they were all fbi agents though. they showed me their book. mr. liebeler. the first time that the white-haired agent talked to you was when? mr. delgado. about january, about a month or a month and a half after kennedy's assassination. mr. liebeler. could it have been in the middle of december? mr. delgado. no; i don't think it was that close. let's see, november --i think it was more to the last part of december, not to the middle. mr. liebeler. did this fbi agent talk to you about this rifle practice that you have just told us about? mr. delgado. yes; he did. mr. liebeler. do you remember what you told him? mr. delgado. basically the same thing i told you, except he didn't ask for it like you did, about the possibility of forging the score, and i didn't explain to him about the ncos in the lines and in the pits, also keeping the score. mr. liebeler. you told the fbi that in your opinion oswald was not a good rifle shot; is that correct? mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. and that he did not show any unusual interest in his rifle, and in fact appeared less interested in weapons than the average marine? mr. delgado. yes. he was mostly a thinker, a reader. he read quite a bit. mr. liebeler. you told us just a few minutes ago that you took third in the pool; is that correct? mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. did the fbi agent ask you about that? mr. delgado. no. he asked me how i placed. i told him i placed pretty high; that's about all. mr. liebeler. in the report that i have in front of me of an interview that special agents richard b. murdoch and james a. marley, jr., took of you on january , , at holmdel, n.j., which would have been at the base--is that correct? mr. delgado. right. mr. liebeler. it appears from the record here, from the report that i have, that the spanish-speaking agent was mr. murdoch. mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. so that this would have been the time that the spanish-speaking man was there? mr. delgado. right. that was the third visit i had from him. mr. liebeler. did you discuss at that time the rifle practice, do you remember? mr. delgado. yes; i did. i discussed the rifle practice all the time they came up. mr. liebeler. they asked you the same questions? mr. delgado. right; same thing over and over again. mr. liebeler. now, the report that i have says that oswald, like most marines, took an interest in the pool--they call it a pool instead of a pot, but that is the same thing? mr. delgado. yes; pool. mr. liebeler. oswald took an interest in the pool, which was started for the marine getting the highest score. it says, however, "delgado said neither he nor oswald came close to winning." mr. delgado. no, no; that is erroneous, because i won. he didn't win at all. mr. liebeler. you never told these fbi agents that you yourself did not come close to winning? mr. delgado. no; because i was--i was one of the highest ones there, i always had an expert badge on me. mr. liebeler. you were a good rifle shot? mr. delgado. yes; just like i got one now [indicating]. mr. liebeler. that is an expert? mr. delgado. yes. this is a sharpshooter. mr. liebeler. you have both a sharpshooter and an expert badge; is that correct? mr. delgado. right. one for the m- rifle and the other for the carbine--rather, this is the m- , the new one. mr. liebeler. the scores that you got on that practice would be reflected in your military records, would they not? mr. delgado. right; in all our--well, i think they call them files also in the marines corps--i can't remember what they are now, but they are all there, especially that one particular day, because that goes into your records. that's why they are so strict. mr. liebeler. and there is no chance in connection with that qualification firing that you can pencil in your score? mr. delgado. no. mr. liebeler. you did not tell the fbi that in your opinion oswald had penciled in his qualifying score, did you? or did you tell them that? mr. delgado. he may have done, you know; but if you got away with it you were more than lucky. mr. liebeler. did you talk to the fbi about that possibility? mr. delgado. yes, i told him he may have, to qualify, because there was a lot of "maggie's drawers" on his side. now, he may have had some way of knowing who was pulling, that is another thing. you don't know who is out there in the pits, pulling it, see; and it could be a buddy of yours or somebody you know, and they will help you out, you know, get together, like before we all go and separate, you know, and i will say to my buddy, "well, look, i want to try and get on line , you get on target , and i will try to be the first one on line"; so help each other like that, and when they go to the pits, they have their choice of getting on the lines, you know, so i will try to work it out with the fellow out there. but sometimes it doesn't work out that way. you just have to take your chances. mr. liebeler. you told us that in this particular rifle practice, or firing, that the scores were kept by ncos. mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. was it a common practice for the privates to make deals like this with the noncommissioned officers in connection with a thing like this? mr. delgado. they are making a deal with the other guys pulling the targets. see, the guy back there is also keeping a score. now, your nco, particularly your nco, may want to push you or make you qualify, because he doesn't want to spend another day out there on the rifle range, see; so it's not all that strict. like if i was line nco and i had five men in my section, and four of them qualified, that means that some other day, maybe on my day off, i will have to come in with this other fellow, so i will help him along and push each other along. you don't try to mess nobody up, but you can't take a man that is shooting poorly and give him a score, see; you could just give him the bare minimum, or , to make it look good. mr. liebeler. just to qualify him? mr. delgado. just to qualify him. mr. liebeler. so it is a possibility that that might have happened even in connection with this? mr. delgado. right. mr. liebeler. you said that you came in about third in this pool? mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. do you remember who the marines were that won it and took second place? mr. delgado. no. these men were mostly transients. like i said, i didn't have too many close friends in the marine corps. i went to school with quite a few of them that were stationed with us, but i never got real close to any of them. mr. liebeler. this statement in this fbi report indicates that you said that neither you nor oswald came close to winning the pool and that just must be a mistake; is that correct? mr. delgado. yes, correct. i think in the first statement, too i said that i have won too, i believe, the first one he took. i won, but he didn't. mr. liebeler. the first report indicates that you said that oswald was a poor shot and didn't do well, but it doesn't say anything about how you did. do you remember discussing how you did with the fbi in the first interview that you had? mr. delgado. yes, the first one was at home. we had more time to talk, and i was at ease there. mr. liebeler. and where would that have been? mr. delgado. the address? mr. liebeler. yes. mr. delgado. oakwood road-- oakwood road, leonardo, n.j. mr. liebeler. you say that this incident where you had to go out and qualify was some time in the spring of ? mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. can you remember any closer than that? mr. delgado. no. i just knew it was the spring because that is the time everyone goes out to fire. it's either going to be warm or it's going to be very cold when they go out there; it's never in between. i could have said that, but that was the day i was upset, because this guy kept on badgering me. mr. liebeler. you are talking now about the interview when the spanish-speaking agent was present? mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. which one of them kept badgering you? mr. delgado. the spanish agent. mr. liebeler. what was he badgering you about? mr. delgado. he kept on sitting--he'd been talking, he'd been looking at me, you know, and doing this [indicating], you know, and he was sitting just about where this gentleman is now, and i'd been looking out of the corner of my eye, because i couldn't concentrate on what he was saying because he kept staring at me, and he was giving me a case of jitters, you know. mr. liebeler. did you have the impression that he didn't believe you? mr. delgado. yes. but i told him, it's all right in the textbooks, that's fine, you know, but my theory, my way is you are not going to get anything--i mean the majority of the stuff out of books, you have got to apply yourself on the outside; and he may have gotten an a in spanish, and may write in--be able to decipher anything in spanish into english, which is fine, as long as he stays in the lower court, you know, where they are going to speak high spanish, but when you go to mingle with the people and speak their language you know, don't go in there with a college spanish, because, to begin with, they are going to tell right off, you know, well, this guy is a highfalutin fellow, you know. they are not going to have anything to do with him. you know, common spanish is quite often overlooked, and that is where we make our mistake when we go--i think when we go abroad, because we try to speak spanish the way el camino real tells you to speak spanish, and that is not going to do. if you come, a fellow comes and tries to be friends with you, and he is giving you all these thees and thous, first of all you are not going to hit it off right. speak like they do. if they say damn; say damn, you know, get with them. mr. liebeler. you and this agent did not strike it off too well? mr. delgado. no, i am afraid not. we just spent hours arguing back and forth. mr. liebeler. off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. liebeler. we just referred to the el camino real that you mentioned, and you mentioned that that was a spanish textbook; is that correct? mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. one in which the castilian spanish is taught? mr. delgado. right. mr. liebeler. can you tell us some more about your discussions with oswald concerning the castro movement or the situation in cuba? mr. delgado. we had quite many discussions regarding castro. at the time i was in favor of castro, i wholeheartedly supported him, and made it known that i thought he was a pretty good fellow, and that was one of the main things oswald and i always hit off so well, we were along the same lines of thought. castro at the time showed all possibilities of being a freedom-loving man, a democratic sort of person, that was going to do away with all tyranny and finally give the cuban people a break. but then he turned around and started to purge, the russian purge, started executing all these pro-batistas or anybody associated with a pro-batista, just word of mouth. i would say he is a batista, and right away they would grab him, give him a kangaroo court and shoot him. he and i had discussed about that, and right and wrong way that he should have gone about doing it. castro at the time, his brother raoul was the only known communist, and i mentioned the fact that he was a communist, but that although castro was the leader, i doubt if he would follow the communist line of life, you know. at the time i don't remember che guevra being there. he came in after that. and we talked how we would like to go to cuba and---- mr. liebeler. you and oswald did? mr. delgado. right. we were going to become officers, you know, enlisted men. we are dreaming now, right? so we were going to become officers. so we had a head start, you see. we were getting honorable discharges, while morgan--there was a fellow in cuba at the time, he got a dishonorable discharge from the army, and he went to castro and fought with castro in the escambres. mr. liebeler. a fellow named morgan? mr. delgado. yes; henry morgan--not henry, but it was morgan, though; and at the end of the revolution he came out with the rank of major, you know. so we were all thinking, well, honorable discharge, and i speak spanish and he's got his ideas of how a government should be run, you know, the same line as castro did at that time. mr. liebeler. oswald? mr. delgado. right. so we could go over there and become officers and lead an expedition to some of these other islands and free them too, you know, from--this was really weird, you know, but---- mr. liebeler. that is what you and oswald talked about? mr. delgado. right, things like that; and how we would go to take over, to make a republic, you know, because that was another form of batista, american-supported government, you know. and one of his main, pet peeves was that he thought that batista was being supported by the united states, and that is why we were so against him in the beginning of castro. mr. liebeler. so against castro? mr. delgado. right, because of the fact that we had lost so much and were about to lose so much money in cuba, because now that our man was out. and we would talk about how we would do away with trujillo, and things like that, but never got no farther than the speaking stage. but then when he started, you know, going along with this, he started actually making plans, he wanted to know, you know, how to get to cuba and things like that. i was shying away from him. he kept on asking me questions like "how can a person in his category, an english person, get with a cuban, you know, people, be part of that revolution movement?" i told him, to begin with, you have got to be trusted--right--in any country you go to you have got to be trusted, so the best way to be trusted is to know their language, know their customs, you know; so he started applying himself to spanish, he started studying. he bought himself a dictionary, a spanish-american dictionary. he would come to me and we would speak in spanish. you know, not great sentences but enough. after a while he got to talk to me, you know, in spanish. mr. liebeler. how much of a fluency did oswald develop in spanish? mr. delgado. he didn't acquire too much. he could, speak a common spanish, like "how are you? i am doing fine. where are you going? which way is this?" common stuff, you know, everyday stuff. as far as getting in involved political argument, say, or like debate of some sort, he couldn't hold his own. mr. liebeler. he couldn't speak spanish well enough to do something like that? mr. delgado. no. but as far as meeting the people out in public and asking for things and telling them something. and, let's see, what else? oh, yes, then he kept on asking me about how about--how he could go about helping the castro government. i didn't know what to tell him, so i told him the best thing that i know was to get in touch with a cuban embassy, you know. but at that time that i told him this we were on friendly terms with cuba, you know, so this wasn't no subversive or mal-intent, you know. i didn't know what to answer him. i told him go see them. after a while he told me he was in contact with them. mr. liebeler. with the cuban embassy? mr. delgado. right. and i took it to be just a--one of his, you know, lies, you know, saying he was in contact with them, until one time i had the opportunity to go into his room, i was looking for--i was going out for the weekend, i needed a tie, he lent me the tie, and i seen this envelope in his footlocker, wall-locker, and it was addressed to him, and they had an official seal on it, and as far as i could recollect that was mail from los angeles, and he was telling me there was a cuban consul. and just after he started receiving these letters--you see, he would never go out, he'd stay near the post all the time. he always had money. that's why. mr. liebeler. what did you just say? mr. delgado. he always had money, you know, he never spent it. he was pretty tight. so then one particular instance, i was in the train station in santa ana, calif., and oswald comes in, on a friday night. i usually make it every friday night to los angeles and spend the weekend. and he is on the same platform, so we talked, and he told me he had to see some people in los angeles. i didn't bother questioning him. we rode into los angeles, nothing eventful happened, just small chatter, and once we got to los angeles i went my way and he went his. i came to find out later on he had come back saturday. he didn't stay like we did, you know, come back sunday night, the last train. very seldom did he go out. at one time he went with us down to tijuana, mexico. mr. liebeler. before we get into that, tell me all that you can remember about oswald's contact with the cuban consulate. mr. delgado. well, like i stated to these fbi men, he had one visitor; after he started receiving letters he had one visitor. it was a man, because i got the call from the mp guard shack, and they gave me a call that oswald had a visitor at the front gate. this man had to be a civilian, otherwise they would have let him in. so i had to find somebody to relieve oswald, who was on guard, to go down there to visit with this fellow, and they spent about an hour and a half, hours talking, i guess, and he came back. i don't know who the man was or what they talked about, but he looked nonchalant about the whole thing when he came back. he never mentioned who he was, nothing. mr. liebeler. how long did he talk to him, do you remember? mr. delgado. about an hour and a half, hours. mr. liebeler. was he supposed to be on duty that time? mr. delgado. right. and he had the guy relieve him, calling me about every minutes, where is his, the relief, where is the relief, you know, because he had already pulled his tour of duty and oswald was posted to walk hours and he only walked about an hour and a half before he received this visitor, you know, which was an odd time to visit, because it was after , and it must have been close to o'clock when he had that visitor, because anybody, civilian or otherwise, could get on post up to o'clock at night. after o'clock, if you are not military you can't get on that post. so it was after o'clock at night that he had the visitor, it was late at night. i don't think it could be his brother or father because i never knew that he had one, you know; in fact the only one i knew was a sick mother, and then later on, towards the end of our friendship there, he was telling me he was trying to get a hardship discharge because his mother was sick. mr. liebeler. you never asked oswald who this fellow was that he talked to? mr. delgado. no, no. mr. liebeler. what time did the shifts of duty run? this was a guard duty that he was on; is that right? mr. delgado. right. mr. liebeler. how did those shifts run? mr. delgado. they ran, let's see, from to , to , to , to , to , like that; and he was roughly on -to- shift, you know. must have been about o'clock when the guy called. mr. liebeler. the -to- shift? mr. delgado. yes; and i had to relieve another guard and put him on. mr. liebeler. did you connect this visit that oswald had at that time with the cuban consulate? mr. delgado. personally; i did; because i thought it funny for him to be receiving a caller at such a late date--time. also, up to this time he hardly ever received mail; in fact he very seldom received mail from home, because i made it a policy, i used to pick up the mail for our hut and distribute it to the guys in there, and very seldom did i see one for him. but every so often, after he started to get in contact with these cuban people, he started getting little pamphlets and newspapers, and he always got a russian paper, and i asked him if it was, you know, a commie paper--they let you get away with this in the marine corps in a site like this--and he said, "no, it's not communist; it's a white russian. to me that was greek, you know, white russian, so i guess he is not a communist; but he was steady getting that periodical. it was a newspaper. mr. liebeler. in the russian language? mr. delgado. right. mr. liebeler. and he received that prior to the time he contacted the cuban consulate; did he not? mr. delgado. right. and he also started receiving letters, you know, and no books, maybe pamphlets, you know, little--like church, things we get from church, you know, but it wasn't a church. mr. liebeler. were they written in spanish, any of them, do you know? mr. delgado. not that i can recall; no. mr. liebeler. did you have any reason to believe that these things came to oswald from the cuban consulate? mr. delgado. well, i took it for granted that they did after i seen the envelope, you know. mr. liebeler. what was on this envelope that made you think that? mr. delgado. something like a mexican eagle, with a big, impressive seal, you know. they had different colors on it, red and white; almost looked like our colors, you know. but i can't recall the seal. i just knew it was in latin, united, something like that. i couldn't understand. it was latin. mr. liebeler. you don't know for sure whether it was from the cuban consulate? mr. delgado. no. but he had told me prior, just before i found that envelope in his wall locker, that he was receiving mail from them, and one time he offered to show it to me, but i wasn't much interested because at the time we had work to do, and i never did ask to see that paper again, you know. mr. liebeler. did he tell you what his correspondence with the cuban consulate was about? mr. delgado. no; he didn't. mr. liebeler. did he ever indicate to you that it had to do with the conversation that you had about going over to cuba? mr. delgado. no. the only thing he told me was that right after he had this conversation with the cuban people was that he was going to--once he got out of the service he was going to switzerland, he was going to a school, and this school in switzerland was supposed to teach him in years--in months what it had taken him to learn in psychology over here in years, something like that. mr. liebeler. did he tell you the name of the school? mr. delgado. no; but he applied for it while in the service, and as far as i knew, that's where he was going once he got discharged. mr. liebeler. this conversation that you and oswald had about going over in cuba and helping castro was just barracks talk? mr. delgado. right. mr. liebeler. you didn't seriously consider---- mr. delgado. no; but that's when i started getting scared. he started actually making plans, and how we would go about going to cuba, you know, and where we would apply to go to cuba and the people to contact if we wanted to go, you know, but---- mr. liebeler. so you got the impression that he started to get serious about going to cuba? mr. delgado. yes. and about this time castro started changing colors, so i wasn't too keen on that idea, myself. mr. liebeler. did you talk to oswald about this change in castro's attitude and his approach? mr. delgado. right. he said that was all due to mal--bad newspaper reporting, that we were distorting the true facts, and for the same reason i told you that, because we were mad, because now we wasn't getting the money from cuba that we were before. mr. liebeler. so oswald basically took the position that you were getting a distorted view of cuba? mr. delgado. right; and we weren't getting the true facts of what was happening in cuba. we were getting the distorted facts. mr. liebeler. you have no definite way of knowing how much correspondence oswald received from the cuban consulate, do you? mr. delgado. no. mr. liebeler. he told you that he had received some correspondence? mr. delgado. right. mr. liebeler. you don't know whether the russian newspaper that he got came from the cuban consulate? mr. delgado. no. he was getting that way before he even started corresponding with them. mr. liebeler. do you know whether oswald ever received any books or pamphlets or materials in any language other than russian--aside from english, of course? mr. delgado. no. he had one book that was english, das kapital. i think it was russian, a book, like i said. i go by russian when it's big block letters. and he had one book like that. he spoke russian pretty good, so i understand. mr. liebeler. how do you understand that? mr. delgado. he tried to teach me some russian. he would put out a whole phrase, you know. in return for my teaching him spanish, he would try to teach me russian. but it's a tongue twister. mr. liebeler. you didn't have any understanding of the russian language? mr. delgado. no. basically i wasn't interested in it. in order to learn a language, i think you have to be motivated. you have to have a desire to use this language, you know, and i had no need to learn russian. and just the reverse of him. he wanted to learn spanish. he had some idea of using spanish later on. i'm sure if this hadn't happened, he probably would be over there now, if he hadn't been already. mr. liebeler. in cuba, you mean? mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. do you have any reason to believe that he has been in cuba? mr. delgado. well, a guy like him would find--would have no difficulty in getting into cuba. they would accept him real fast. the fact that he was in russia. now, all these years in russia, he could have come over to cuba and learned some doctrine. that's where he got his ideas to start this fair play for cuba committee down in louisiana. that must have been supported by castro. mr. liebeler. how do you know that he was involved in the fair play for cuba committee in louisiana? mr. delgado. well, this was brought out in the newscast at the time of his arrest. mr. liebeler. you have no direct knowledge of that, though? mr. delgado. no. in one of the news pictures i seen him distributing pamphlets out in the street. mr. liebeler. did you ever see oswald after---- mr. delgado. no. mr. liebeler. after you were discharged from the marine corps? mr. delgado. no. mr. liebeler. you said before that you were in germany until approximately the end of ; is that correct? december of ? mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. you never met oswald at any time while you were in germany? mr. delgado. no. i wanted to--i knew that he was over there going to school, and i can't for the life of me recall where i got the scoop that i thought he was going to some school in berlin, and i was thinking of going over there, to see if i could find him, but i never did follow through. there was too much redtape. mr. liebeler. you say that you thought he was in berlin going to school? mr. delgado. yes. for some reason or other. i can't say right now why, but it just seemed to me that i thought he was going to school there. mr. liebeler. after you were discharged from the marine corps, you learned that oswald had gone to the soviet union, did you not? mr. delgado. i knew he had gone to the soviet union before i got discharged. mr. liebeler. when were you discharged? mr. delgado. in november. as--when i got back, i saw the pictures all over the papers as him having defected, and then we had the investigation there. mr. liebeler. but even though you had heard before you had gotten out of the marine corps that oswald had gone to the soviet union, while you were in the army in germany you gained the impression that somehow that he was in berlin, going to school? mr. delgado. yes; in the university there. mr. liebeler. but you don't have any recollection of where you got this idea? mr. delgado. no. mr. liebeler. you were under the impression, then, that he had left the soviet union? mr. delgado. yes. i couldn't--oswald loved to travel, right, but if he couldn't take military life, where everything was told to him, i'm sure he couldn't take no life in russia, where he was subjected to strict, you know, watching. i couldn't picture him living over there. i thought he had gone to, you know, like i said, the university in berlin, to study there. he wanted to study psychology. mr. liebeler. did you think that he was perhaps at the same university that you spoke of before, that he had applied for when he was in the marines? mr. delgado. no; because i--the way i understand it, it's--there's two big psychologists institutes in europe. one is in switzerland. if he was a devout communist or pro-russian, as they say he was--one was in east berlin, and one was in switzerland--he couldn't have gone to switzerland. i knew he applied for switzerland. mr. liebeler. so you figured that because he had this interest in psychology, and since he was interested in communism, he probably wouldn't have gone to the university in switzerland, but he might very well have gone to the one in berlin? mr. delgado. well, actually it was on their own level. they would train him their way. (short recess.) mr. liebeler. did you think that oswald was an agent of the soviet union or was acting as an agent for the soviet union at that time? mr. delgado. no. mr. liebeler. whom did you mean to refer to when you said that they would train him their way? mr. delgado. well, after he was defecting, i assumed he would take the communist way of life, and i would imagine that they would put him to use to the best of their advantage. but this was later brought out to be false, because they came out and said that all he did was work in a factory. whether or not that's so, i can't say. that's what they said. mr. liebeler. but at the time you were in europe, you were speculating to yourself that he might have been in the berlin school? mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. you received no particular information? you just figured this out for yourself? mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. just how well do you think oswald learned to speak spanish during the time that he was associated with you in the marine corps? mr. delgado. he could meet the average people from the streets and hold a conversation with them. he could make himself understood and be understood. that's not too clear, is it? mr. liebeler. did you think oswald was an intelligent person? mr. delgado. yes; i did. more intelligent than i am, and i have a , supposedly, iq, and he could comprehend things faster and was interested in things that i wasn't interested in: politics, music, things like that, so much so like an intellectual. he didn't read poetry or anything like that, but as far as books and concert music and things like that, he was a great fan. mr. liebeler. you said before that oswald was not sufficiently proficient in spanish so that he could carry on a political argument or anything like that. mr. delgado. no. mr. liebeler. now, did you talk to the fbi about this question of how well oswald could speak spanish? mr. delgado. yes; i did. mr. liebeler. do you remember what you told him? mr. delgado. i told him basically the same thing i told you, only then this fellow came out, this other agent came out with this test he gave me. mr. liebeler. he gave you a test? mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. in spanish? mr. delgado. right. mr. liebeler. just in speaking to you, you mean? mr. delgado. no; a written thing. mr. liebeler. he gave you a written test? mr. delgado. i told him off the bat, i can't--my spelling is bad, you know. i told him right then. but outside of the spelling, i could read it and write it, you know. so he gave me a test, and he didn't tell me what the outcome was, but i gathered it wasn't too favorable. mr. liebeler. what made you gather that? mr. delgado. the sarcasm in his voice when he said, "what makes you think you speak spanish so good?"--after he gave me the test, you know. well, i told him, "your spanish is all right in its place, you know, college or something like that, but people have a hard time understanding you," which is true. if you have any spanish-speaking fellows working here, let's say, a clerk or something, well, ask him what the word "peloloso" means, and i would bet you out of times he would not know. that's the castilian word for "lazy". we got words for "lazy," three or four of them, "bago," "lento," things like that. that's one of the things i brought up to him. but he just laughed it off. mr. liebeler. did you tell the fbi that oswald was so proficient in spanish that he would discuss his ideas on socialism in spanish? mr. delgado. no. mr. liebeler. you didn't tell them that? mr. delgado. no. mr. liebeler. you are absolutely sure of that? mr. delgado. no; he wouldn't argue with me. all those arguments on socialism and communism and our way of life and their way of life were held in english. he talked, but he couldn't hold his own. he would speak three or four words and then bring it out in english. but as far as basic conversation and debate; no. mr. liebeler. did you tell the fbi agent that oswald would speak about socialism and things like that in spanish and that it seemed to give him a feeling of superiority to talk about things like that in spanish in front of the officers so that the officers couldn't understand him? mr. delgado. we were speaking spanish. that gave him a sense of superiority, because they didn't know what we were talking about. in fact, more than once we were reprimanded for speaking spanish, because we were not supposed to do it, and they didn't forbid us to speak spanish--now, no political discussions were talked about. this was small talk when we were talking spanish. mr. liebeler. now, the fbi report that i have of an interview with you on december , according to this report, , at leonardo---- mr. delgado. yes; that's my home. mr. liebeler. this fbi agent says that you told him that oswald became so proficient in spanish that oswald would discuss his ideas on socialism in spanish. mr. delgado. he would discuss his ideas, but not anything against our government or--nothing socialist, mind you. mr. liebeler. in spanish? mr. delgado. he would speak to me in spanish in front of the people, in front of the officers in the ward, what we call the wardroom. basically the fact that they could be standing over us and we would be talking, and they wouldn't understand what we were saying. but no ideas were exchanged, political ideas were exchanged during those times. whenever we talked about the communist or socialist way of life, we would do it either in our hut or, you know, in low whispers doing the wardroom---- mr. liebeler. that was in in english? mr. delgado. in english. mr. liebeler. he never spoke of these things in spanish? mr. delgado. no; he couldn't. mr. liebeler. he didn't know spanish that well? mr. delgado. no. mr. liebeler. you mentioned one time that you and oswald and a couple of other fellows went to tijuana. mr. delgado. right. mr. liebeler. had oswald learned the spanish language at that time? mr. delgado. he knew the spanish language at that time, because when we went to the bar, the girls would come along, and i was spanish--they knew that right off the bat, and they would tell me something in spanish that was funny, and him and i would laugh, and he would laugh understandingly, and he would be talking small talk with the girls, you know, which was in my--you know, i had taught him just what he knew, and he was very fast learning. just like i told the fbi agent that there's a couple of fellows in my outfit now that wanted to learn, you know, spanish, and would walk up to me, and i tried to teach them the best i can. one of them wanted to learn it, because he was going to juarez for a problem we had down there, and he used it down there, what he learned. he learned off of books and also because he asked me for help for some phrases, and when he went down there he had no trouble. and the same thing with oswald. mr. liebeler. this is a fellow that you just referred to now, in your outfit? mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. in jersey? mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. what is his name? mr. delgado. jones. mr. liebeler. jones? mr. delgado. willie jones. mr. liebeler. what is his rating? mr. delgado. specialist . mr. liebeler. is he in c battery? mr. delgado. no. delta battery. mr. liebeler. what does he do? mr. delgado. he's a radar operator also. and there's another fellow, george bradford, specialist . he's asked for it, and i've teached--taught him to speak spanish. in fact, i'll ask him for some money, you know, and he'll come out and say, "i'm broke right now. i haven't got it with me." or "have you got a cigarette, george?" in spanish, you know. "no, but i'll get you one," or things like that. now, i met this fellow in germany, and there i started teaching him a little bit. not an awful lot, but smalltalk. mr. liebeler. would you say that bradford and jones knew about the same amount of spanish as oswald knew? mr. delgado. no. mr. liebeler. not as much? mr. delgado. they don't know as much as oswald. oswald knew more than they did, because he applied himself more. these guys would pick up a book once or twice a week and learn a phrase here and there. but oswald was continuously trying to learn something, and more often as not he would come in to me any time we were off, and he would be asking me for this phrase. spanish is very tricky. there's some sentences you can use, and if you use them, let's see--how can i--well, the pasts and present, you know, past and present tense of a sentence. he would get a misinterpretation and say, "i can't say this in a conversation?", and i would say "no. you don't say this this particular time. you use it some place else." like, "yo voy al teatro"--"i'm going to the theatre"--you know. and there's a correct way of saying that and there's a wrong way of saying it. the best way--let me see if i can get you a good phrase. i can't right offhand think of a phrase that would fit. but some of these things when he picked up the language, some things he couldn't put into a sentence right away, and he would want to know why. that's the type of guy he was. "why can't these things be used? why is it that you use it now and not later?" things like that. mr. liebeler. he would learn some of the words and then he would try to put them in a sentence logically? mr. delgado. right. mr. liebeler. and the language just wasn't constructed that way? mr. delgado. right. mr. liebeler. and he had difficulty in understanding that? mr. delgado. you see, in english you say things straight out; right? in spanish, times out of it is just the reverse. i am going to the show. but if i was to translate it into spanish, it would come out the show i will go, or to the show i will go. so you have got to turn it around, you know, for him. that is what i was trying to explain. mr. liebeler. he tried to construct spanish sentences in pretty much the same way english sentences would be constructed after he learned the spanish words? mr. delgado. right; and that is where he got his help from me, you know. mr. liebeler. but as far as ordinary, simple ideas, you think that oswald could make himself understood in spanish. mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. but you wouldn't, would you, say that he was highly proficient in the spanish language, but at least he knew some spanish phrases and he could speak some sentences and make his basic ideas known? mr. delgado. if there is a word, you know, like semiproficient, he wasn't necessarily low, or was he as high spanish like i speak, you know; he was right in the middle. of course, there would be words, if you taught him, he may not understand, but basically he understood and made himself understood. mr. liebeler. do you remember what kind of spanish dictionary he had? mr. delgado. no; i don't. it was just regular pocketbook edition, the kind you buy out there for about $ . mr. liebeler. did you know whether oswald spoke any other language. you mentioned before he spoke russian. mr. delgado. russian. mr. liebeler. did you think that he was proficient in russian at that time or highly proficient? mr. delgado. yes; i imagine he would be, because he was reading the paper, and basically if he can read it, you know, i imagine he could speak it also. mr. liebeler. did you hear him speak russian? mr. delgado. well, like i say, he tried to teach me russian, but then another time i had some thought that what he was speaking to me was german; but according to the agent, he messed me all up, and i couldn't figure whether it was hebrew or german. i tried to tell him that some of the words he had mentioned to me at the time i didn't recognize them, but when i came back from germany some of those words i do remember, you know. mr. liebeler. it seemed to you like it was german? mr. delgado. like german; yes. mr. liebeler. but you only came to that conclusion after you had been to germany? mr. delgado. right. at the time it could have been yiddish or german, you know. mr. liebeler. could it have been russian? mr. delgado. no; different gutteral sounds altogether. mr. liebeler. but you did not know whether oswald spoke this other language to any extent; he just used a few words? mr. delgado. no; i just remember his particular language, which i am in doubt about, had a "ch" gutteral sound to it [indicating], you know; and i could only assume it was jewish or german, and later on when i was in germany, i think, i am pretty sure it was german that he was speaking. mr. liebeler. did he speak it well or did he just use a few words? mr. delgado. he speaks it like i speak it now, you know, like, just phrases, you know. where he picked them up, i don't know. mr. liebeler. did you teach anybody else spanish while you were in the marines? mr. delgado. just one fellow, but he denied that i taught him any spanish. mr. liebeler. who was that? mr. delgado. don murray. he took spanish in college, and we were stationed in biloxi, miss., together, and he would ask me for the same thing. he tried to construct a sentence in spanish like you do in english, and it came out all backwards, and i tried to explain it to him. mr. liebeler. was he stationed with you at santa ana too? mr. delgado. that's right. mr. liebeler. what makes you say he denied that you taught him any spanish? mr. delgado. that is what the agent interviewing me told me. mr. liebeler. the fbi agent told you that? mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. what did you say then? mr. delgado. i told him that was his prerogative, but i had taught him--i mean i had talked to him in spanish, and he had asked for my help, i assumed that he wanted to know my association with this thing that is happening now. mr. liebeler. did you get the impression that the agent was trying to get you to change your story? mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. he was trying to get you to back away from the proposition that oswald understood spanish? mr. delgado. well, am i allowed to say what i want to say? mr. liebeler. yes; i want you to say exactly what you want to say. mr. delgado. i had the impression now, wholeheartedly, i want to believe that oswald did what he was supposed to have done, but i had the impression they weren't satisfied with my testimony of him not being an expert shot. his spanish wasn't proficient where he would be at a tie with the cuban government. mr. liebeler. first of all, you say you got the impression that the fbi agents that talked to you didn't like the statement that you made about oswald's inability to use the rifle well; is that right? mr. delgado. right. mr. liebeler. what about this spanish thing, what impression did you get about the agents? mr. delgado. well, they tried to make me out that i didn't have no authority to consider myself so fluent in spanish where i could teach somebody else. that is there opinion and they can have it as far as i am concerned. if a man comes up to me without knowing a bit of spanish, if within months--and i told these fbi men--he could hold a conversation with me, i consider myself as being some sort of an authority on teaching, my ability to teach somebody to speak spanish, which i told him i could take any man with a sincere desire to learn spanish and i could teach him my spanish, the spanish the people speak, you know, i could teach him in, i could have him hold a conversation, i would say, in months' time he could hold a conversation. mr. liebeler. now, the fbi tried to indicate to you that you yourself were not good at spanish? mr. delgado. no. mr. liebeler. and did you have any feeling about the fbi agents' attitude toward oswald's ability with the spanish language? mr. delgado. yes; they didn't think he was too well versed, you know, he didn't know too much spanish, as much as i wanted them to think he did, you know. in other words, they felt he could say "i have a dog. my dog is black." and "i have an automobile," and things like that, you know, basic spanish, but i don't teach--i mean i am not a teacher. i don't go with that, you know. if a guy wants to learn spanish, i don't tell him, "well, let's start off with 'i have a dog,'" you know. that is no practical use for him, you know. i tell him, "how do i get to such-and-such a street?" you go to a spanish fellow--you are in juarez--and be prepared to receive an answer from him, and he is going to shoot it to you fast, see, so that's what i teach these guys, you know. mr. liebeler. and oswald was able to ask questions like this and understand them; is that right? mr. delgado. right. now, we had mexican fellows in our outfit, and oswald could understand their spanish, and made it known to me that he could understand their spanish, but in return those mexicans could not understand my spanish because the puerto ricans, cubans, the dominican republics, they all speak real fast. your mexican is your southern equivalent to your southern drawl, you know, "you all," and real slow. well, that is the mexicans, you know. and when we speak spanish to them, puerto rican, rather, or spanish, they have a hard time understanding you. but he could understand what was going on, and sometimes he would tell me, "well, these guys here are planning a beer bust tonight," he said. "are you going?" he'd overhear and tell me, you know. mr. liebeler. when did the fbi agents tell you that murray had denied that you had taught him spanish? was that when the spanish-speaking agent was there? mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. the spanish-speaking agent only talked to you once; is that right? mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. do you find that you have to mix english words with your spanish to express yourself completely? mr. delgado. no; what i meant to tell the fellow there--i think is what that sentence you have in front of you is--that, say--how can i say it?--you speak to me in english, and i could say it in spanish just about as fast as you could tell me in english, you know, like he is working there, you know, all coming to his fingertips, like the other fellow was telling me. i could translate that fast, you know, and deciphering is the only proper way of saying it, you know. and i made another statement at home, you know, my family was speaking, and the majority of the words being spanish, and english just come out, you know. mr. liebeler. do you speak spanish around the home? mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. is your wife puerto rican? mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. does she speak spanish? mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. was your wife born in puerto rico? mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. when did she come to the united states? mr. delgado. about , . mr. liebeler. how old was she then? mr. delgado. she was about . mr. liebeler. you mentioned that oswald used to go into los angeles with you from time to time. can you tell me approximately how many times oswald went to los angeles? mr. delgado. once he went with me. mr. liebeler. just once? mr. delgado. just once. that was, you know, he just stayed a night, as far as i can remember. mr. liebeler. so that oswald only went into los angeles with you on one occasion? mr. delgado. that i know; yes. right after he corresponded with these people. mr. liebeler. with the cuban consulate? mr. delgado. i assumed he was going there to see somebody. i never asked him. it wasn't my business, you know. mr. liebeler. did he later tell you that he had been to the cuban consulate? mr. delgado. yes; but i thought it was just his, you know, bragging of some sort. mr. liebeler. you didn't really believe that he had? mr. delgado. well, no; i didn't have no interest in it, whether or not. mr. liebeler. did you learn that oswald had gone into los angeles on weekends at other times? dr. delgado. no; not that i know of. mr. liebeler. the only thing that you know---- mr. delgado. that i am sure of was that one particular incident, one particular time, it struck me as being odd that he had gone out, you know. mr. liebeler. so that oswald only went into los angeles with you on one occasion that you can remember; is that right? mr. delgado. yes; that i can recall. mr. liebeler. did the fbi agent ask you about this? mr. delgado. yes; he asked me that, and i believe i gave him the same answer i have given you now, because the other time they had two men, that other fellow was asking me questions too, you know, this is back and forth, trying to answer you, and he is asking me something else, you know. i was sitting in the old man's office, the commanding officer's office, you know, and i wasn't too at ease there either. mr. liebeler. oswald did not go with you to los angeles on every other week or anything like that? mr. delgado. no, no. i went every week to los angeles. mr. liebeler. every week? mr. delgado. yes; every weekend that i was off, you know, roughly three weekends a month. mr. liebeler. but oswald only accompanied you on one occasion? mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. you don't know of your own knowledge of any other times that he went into los angeles? mr. delgado. no. the only outstanding thing i can remember was that oswald was a casual dresser. by that i mean he would go with a sport shirt, something like that, and this particular instance he was suited up; white shirt, dark suit, dark tie. mr. liebeler. you told the fbi that oswald enjoyed classical music; is that right? mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. and that he would often talk at length about the opera; is that correct? mr. delgado. right. i tried to be a listener, but i wasn't too interested. mr. liebeler. did oswald seem to be interested in girls? mr. delgado. no; not to my knowledge. he didn't have a girl friend write him, i know that for a fact; he didn't have no girl writing; never went to a dance down at the service club; always by himself. and when we had no duty, him and i used to go to the show, you know, times out of i ended up paying for it. mr. liebeler. how about sports, did he ever show any interest in sports? mr. delgado. no. that is something i would like to bring up. mr. liebeler. go ahead. mr. delgado. may i go on the record, because there was a statement i read in life magazine? mr. liebeler. go ahead. mr. delgado. and it's erroneous. mr. liebeler. what did it say? mr. delgado. it is quoting a lieutenant cupenack, and he made a statement there in life, last month, i believe it was. he made a statement saying he was oswald's commanding officer, oswald was on the football team. he was on the football team, that is the only true fact in the whole statement that he made. also that he had a run-in with a captain that was on the football team, and because of this argument he went off the team. to begin with, our company commander was a light colonel, lieutenant colonel. lieutenant cupenack was a supply officer. he seldom came in contact with oswald, and when he did, it was only when oswald was on details or when lieutenant cupenack had duty that particular night in the war room when oswald was on. and as far as a captain being on the football team, the only captain we had was in the s- section where we worked, and he was too old to play football. lieutenant cupenack played football. he was good. he was tackle. i remember i played against him plenty of times myself. and why oswald left, i don't know. i don't think he went out, he just bugged out, it's what he wanted, and he had it for a while, and he just quit. mr. liebeler. he did come out for football though? mr. delgado. right. mr. liebeler. did you tell the fbi agents about this? mr. delgado. no. mr. liebeler. did they ask about it? mr. delgado. no; i didn't tell them. i just couldn't see why a big agency like life would not check into the story and let something like this, you know, get out. i mean it's all well, you know, to go along and believe what the fellow did, but bring out the truth. mr. liebeler. do you remember which article in life magazine this was? was this the issue---- mr. delgado. the big writeup on him, the latest one, where he had the picture of him in the philippines, and things like that. mr. liebeler. the one that they had oswald's picture on the cover, holding the rifle? mr. delgado. right. and right now he is an instructor of philosophy or psychology in columbia university, i think it is, something like that. mr. liebeler. this lieutenant? mr. delgado. right. i just thought it funny, him saying that he was commanding officer over oswald; that he had a lot of trouble with oswald. and you have been in the army, a supply officer hardly ever comes in contact with the troops, and to say that a lieutenant is going to override a lieutenant colonel is ridiculous. mr. liebeler. did you tell the fbi that oswald did not show any interest in sports? mr. delgado. yes; i told them he didn't show any interest in sports. mr. liebeler. in spite of the fact that he had actually gone on the football team? mr. delgado. that is just one example, the football. but he never went out for basketball, baseball, or handball, like the rest of us did, you know. and myself, i didn't go out for sports either, just football and handball; and that was it. mr. liebeler. was oswald a good football player? mr. delgado. mediocre, he was so-so. mr. liebeler. what position did he play? mr. delgado. he played tackle or end, you know, never fullback, quarterback or anything like that, you know. mr. liebeler. what kind of football teams were these? mr. delgado. flag. flag football. mr. liebeler. that is, the different companies or batteries? mr. delgado. well, when oswald went out for the team, it was in the battery, getting the lines set up, but he quit before we went for competition. mr. liebeler. was this regular football or just touch football. mr. delgado. flag football. mr. liebeler. touch football? mr. delgado. touch football. mr. liebeler. go back and tell us all that you can remember about this trip to tijuana? mr. delgado. well, it happened on one of our weekends off. mr. liebeler. when was it, approximately? mr. delgado. oh, you got me there. i would say about may, something like that. mr. liebeler. in . mr. delgado. ; right. mr. liebeler. can you remember whether your trip to tijuana was before the rifle qualification or after? mr. delgado. after. mr. liebeler. how much after? mr. delgado. oh, about to weeks. within the same month period, because we were about just gotten paid, you know. mr. liebeler. go ahead. mr. delgado. and these two colored fellows we had in our outfit, i can't remember their names, like i told the agents, i don't know why because they worked in a different department than i did there, never had no trouble with them, they wanted to go down to tijuana; so i had the car, and they asked me if i would take them down there. so i told them yeah, they are going to pay for the gas, so why not, i will go for a free trip. so in the process of getting ready i asked oswald if he wanted to go there, you know, and i have asked him to go to l.a. with me plenty of times and he never bothered going--i said, "oswald, let's go to tijuana." he said, "okay, fine." like a casual dresser, he went like the rest of us were, in casual clothes. we went down to tijuana, hit the local spots, drinking and so on, and all of a sudden he says, "let's go to the flamingo." so it didn't register, and i didn't bother to ask him, "where is this flamingo? how did you know about this place?" i assumed he had been there before, because when we got on the highway he told me which turns to take to get to this place, you know. mr. liebeler. to the flamingo? mr. delgado. flamingo, right. and as far as i know it's still there. mr. liebeler. is this outside of tijuana? mr. delgado. it's outside of tijuana. have you been over there? mr. liebeler. no. mr. delgado. no. well, it's the street before the bullring. you have got to make a right-hand turn and you go out for about mile, miles out into the boondocks, the country. it's out in the country, about miles away from the center of the town. when we arrived in there, the way the agents tried to ask me if he had known anybody, i told them no; the way it looked, he just had been there before, but nobody recognized him. the only things i can remember, like i told these agents, were the two contrasting bartenders, you know, a real good-looking woman, amazon; she must have been at least -foot tall; and then there was this fragile-looking fellow behind the bar, one of those funny men, you know, and outside of being a very nice and exclusive club, you know--it wasn't one of these clip joints they had downtown, it was far different from that; it was really nice, a nice place. mr. liebeler. the bartender was a homosexual? mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. was that apparent to you? mr. delgado. oh, yes; it was apparent to us sitting on the bar stool, he looked like a little kitten; and the other bartender was this big girl. she was a good-looking doll. and that's about all. nothing eventful happened there. there is where the girls were telling stories, you know. they got these girls, you pick them up there, you know, and they started telling us stories, and he'd laugh just about the same time i laughed, and he understood what they were saying. mr. liebeler. they spoke spanish? mr. delgado. right. mr. liebeler. now, did anything else happen at the flamingo that you can remember? mr. delgado. no; during the night though i had lost my wallet. that was when i went to the provost marshal--not the provost marshal--the m.p. gate, and reported it, but that is neither here nor there. i had to put in for a new i.d. card and what have you. mr. liebeler. this was in tijuana? mr. delgado. in tijuana. mr. liebeler. the shore patrol had an office across---- mr. delgado. right at the border. mr. liebeler. right at the border? mr. delgado. right at the border they have an m.p. shack, right in the customs office, but they couldn't do nothing, what money i had was gone. like i said, these two negro fellows, they paid for the way back, you know. mr. liebeler. you did have to put in for a new i.d. card; is that right? mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. did you stay in tijuana itself or did you stay across the border? mr. delgado. no; we stayed in downtown tijuana. mr. liebeler. do you remember where? mr. delgado. right across the street from the jai-alai games, there are some hotels, these houses, you know; and as far as i knew, oswald had a girl. i wasn't paying too much attention, you know, but it seemed to me like he had one. mr. liebeler. did he show any interest in the jai-alai games? mr. delgado. no. mr. liebeler. you stayed over only one night; is that right? mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. saturday night? mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. on sunday you drove back to the base? mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. did oswald say anything about his trip down there, his experiences, that you can remember? mr. delgado. no; it was--nothing extraordinary was said. the way of life down there was so poor, you know. they shouldn't allow a town like that to exist, things like that. mr. liebeler. oswald said that? mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. did you mention to the fbi the fact that oswald had a copy of das kapital? mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. you mentioned that in your testimony previously too? mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. did oswald have any other books that you can remember? mr. delgado. he had mein kampf, hitler's bible, but that was circulating throughout the battery, everybody got a hold of that one time or another, you know, and he asked me, how did i know he was reading das kapital. i said, well, the man had the book, and he said that doesn't necessarily mean that he was reading it. so i told him in one instance i walked into the room and he was laying the book down, you know, as he got up to greet me, you know. he says that still doesn't prove that he was reading it. well, if you are sitting, reading a book, and somebody walks into the room, you are not going to keep on reading the book; you are going to put it down and greet whoever it is; and then i assume he is going to assume you have been reading the book, if it is open. it's the only logical explanation. they didn't want to go for that; they wanted to know did i actually see him reading the book, which i couldn't unless i sneaked up on the guy, you know. mr. liebeler. this is the fbi agent you are talking about? mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. but you do remember that when you would walk into the room oswald would be sitting there with this book and it would be open? mr. delgado. yes; and then he had this other book. i am still trying to find out what it is. it's about a farm, and about how all the animals take over and make the farmer work for them. it's really a weird book, the way he was explaining it to me, and that struck me kind of funny. but he told me that the farmer represented the imperialistic world, and the animals were the workers, symbolizing that they are the socialist people, you know, and that eventually it will come about that the socialists will have the imperialists working for them, and things like that, like these animals, these pigs took over and they were running the whole farm and the farmer was working for them. mr. liebeler. is that what oswald explained to you? mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. did you tell the fbi about this? mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. did they know the name of the book? mr. delgado. no. mr. liebeler. the fbi did not know the name of the book? mr. delgado. no. mr. liebeler. do you want to know the name of the book? mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. it is called the animal farm. it is by george orwell. mr. delgado. he didn't tell me. i asked him for the thing, but he wouldn't tell me. i guess he didn't know. the animal farm. did you read it? mr. liebeler. yes. mr. delgado. is it really like that? mr. liebeler. yes; there is only one thing that oswald did not mention apparently and that is that the pigs took over the farm, and then they got to be just like the capitalists were before, they got fighting among themselves, and there was one big pig who did just the same thing that the capitalist had done before. didn't oswald tell you about that? mr. delgado. no; just that the pigs and animals had revolted and made the farmer work for them. the animal farm. is that a socialist book? mr. liebeler. no. mr. delgado. that is just the way you interpret it; right? mr. liebeler. yes; i think so. it is actually supposed to be quite an anti-communist book. mr. delgado. is it really? mr. liebeler. yes. you and oswald finally began to cool off toward each other a little bit; is that right? mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. how did that come about? mr. delgado. well, like i said, his ideas about castro kept on persisting in the same way as at the beginning, when evidence was being shown that castro was reverting to a communist way of government, you know, and secret state, secret police state, and the turning point came about when there was this one corporal batista had in his army, very thin, small fellow, and he had no significant job whatsoever, he was just a corporal in the army, and because of the fact that a lady stepped forward at the tribunal and said that this corporal was in charge of mass murdering all these people, that batista was supposed to have done away with, they executed him on the pure fact of one lady's statement with no proof whatsoever. so i brought that to his attention and he said, "well, in all new governments some errors have to occur, but you can be sure that, something like this was investigated prior to his execution but you will never know about it because they won't publicize that hearing," you know. i couldn't see that, what was happening over there then, when they started executing these people on just mere word of mouth. batista executed them when he had them, a regular blood bath going on there. but that's when i started cooling off, and he started getting more reverent toward castro, he started thinking higher---- mr. liebeler. more highly? mr. delgado. yes; more highly of castro than i did, and about a month later i was on leave, and when i came back he was gone. and it must have been a fast processing, because i wasn't gone over days; when i come back he was already gone. mr. liebeler. did you and oswald stay in the same hut together until he actually got out of the marines? mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. did you ever put in for a transfer to another hut to get away from oswald before you went on leave? mr. delgado. i did, but it never went through. i was the hut nco, and all the other huts had nco's, and if i went into another hut i would be under another guy. mr. liebeler. and you didn't want to do that? mr. delgado. no; i had my rank. mr. liebeler. so you stayed there and remained nco in charge of the hut? mr. delgado. yes; but he never got into arguments with me. he liked to talk politics with one fellow particularly, call, and he would argue with him, and oswald would get to a point where he would get utterly disgusted with the discussion and got out of the room. whenever it got to the point where anger was going to show, he would stop cold and walk out and leave the conversation in the air. mr. liebeler. he never got mad at anybody? mr. delgado. not physically mad, no. mr. liebeler. did you ever know him to get into a fight with anybody at santa ana? mr. delgado. no. mr. liebeler. you say you did put in for a transfer to another hut; is that right? mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. was that permission granted? mr. delgado. i was waiting for it to be granted. i turned it in to the section sergeant, and i never knew what the outcome was. i never found out. they never notified me as to why i wanted to get transferred to the other huts. mr. liebeler. you never did move from your hut to another hut? mr. delgado. no. mr. liebeler. you actually were discharged, from the marines before this question of your transfer ever came up? mr. delgado. right. mr. liebeler. when did you go into the marines? you told us before. let us review that for a moment. mr. delgado. i went into the marines november , . mr. liebeler. you were discharged november, approximately---- mr. delgado. . mr. liebeler. ; is that correct? mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. did you go on leave prior to your discharge? mr. delgado. yes; i did. mr. liebeler. terminal leave? mr. delgado. what? mr. liebeler. was it a terminal leave, and you just took your leave and left, or did you go on leave and then come back? mr. delgado. no. i went on leave and then came back. mr. liebeler. where did you go on leave? mr. delgado. about in august, i think--september to october, something like that. a -day leave, to go to california. august or september. i think it was in the latter part of the summer. i always take that part to come into new york, but when i came back, oz was gone. mr. liebeler. where did you go on leave: to california, or did you come back to new york? mr. delgado. to new york. mr. liebeler. did you talk to the fbi just about this series of events? mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. do you remember what you told them? mr. delgado. i told them that i had gone on leave, and when i came back oswald had been discharged and that then they came out with the story that he defected, i think, then, and that we all had gone under investigation. mr. liebeler. did you tell the fbi agents when you went on leave? mr. delgado. yes. i gave them a specific date. i think i told them about august. mr. liebeler. you didn't tell them june or july? mr. delgado. no, i don't believe so. mr. liebeler. could you have told them it was june or july? mr. delgado. i may have told them june or july. i'm not too sure. i know it was the midsummer; because i came into new york in the good weather. mr. liebeler. did you tell the fbi agents that you had actually transferred to another hut? mr. delgado. no. mr. liebeler. you didn't tell them that? mr. delgado. no. mr. liebeler. you are positive of that? mr. delgado. no; but i told them that oswald was transferred. the only transfer that occurred was oswald to my hut, and that i put in for a transfer, and transfer was waiting to be approved for an nco to be bumped into my hut, but it never got approved. i guess things came up, and about or weeks later i went on leave. mr. liebeler. when you came back from leave, oswald was gone? mr. delgado. yes. prior to my leaving i knew he was putting in for a hardship discharge because he had gone to see the old man and so forth and so on, but, like i say, it usually took so long time to get a hardship discharge, too. mr. liebeler. so you and oswald were actually quartered in the same quonset hut up to the time oswald was discharged? mr. delgado. up to the time i went on leave. mr. liebeler. and when you came back oswald was gone? mr. delgado. right. mr. liebeler. you never saw him after that? mr. delgado. no. mr. liebeler. did oswald say anything to you while you were in the marines together about going to russia? mr. delgado. no. mr. liebeler. he never did? mr. delgado. no; i couldn't understand where he got the money to go. mr. liebeler. you said before he didn't spend very much money. mr. delgado. yes; but i imagine the way it costs now, it costs at least $ to a $ , to travel across europe, plus the red tape you have to go through. mr. liebeler. when did you see this official-looking envelope that you mentioned before with the seal on it? do you remember when that was? mr. delgado. outside of being prior to one of my departures for los angeles--the month, you want? mr. liebeler. yes; if you can remember it. i mean, was it---- mr. delgado. it's hard to say, because we were together so long. it was one of the weekends i was going into los angeles. mr. liebeler. do you remember whether it was before or after your rifle practice? mr. delgado. no; it was after, because prior to our rifle practice i don't think we had any political discussions at all. mr. liebeler. most of those were after the rifle qualifications? mr. delgado. yes; you see, this all happened, oh, between when i say, may to september or may to august, of going on leave, all these incidents, you know. mr. liebeler. do you remember how long you were back at santa ana after your leave before you were discharged? mr. delgado. about months, i guess. mr. liebeler. did the fbi agents ask you about that? mr. delgado. no. mr. liebeler. you mentioned this fellow by the name of call. mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. richard call? mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. was he in your quonset hut? mr. delgado. no; he was in our company. he was in a different quonset hut. mr. liebeler. was he a friend of oswald? mr. delgado. semifriendly. i know personally that he used to call oswald oswaldovich or comrade. we all called him comrade, which is german for friend. we didn't put no communistic influence whatsoever. but then he made the statement saying, no, he never called oswald "comrade," or anything like that, you know. mr. liebeler. who said that? mr. delgado. call. mr. liebeler. how do you know? mr. delgado. the fbi agent told me. mr. liebeler. the fbi agent told you that? mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. you just mentioned the term "oswaldovich"; is that right? mr. delgado. yes; he asked me if anyone had called him oswaldovich. no. comrade commissar; yes. we all used to kid around that language. he used to like it, and he would come out, we would call him "comrade," and he would go straight, jack up and give a big impression. but call said he didn't. well, that's his prerogative. he didn't want to get mixed up in it. mr. liebeler. but you are pretty sure you never heard him call him oswaldovich? mr. delgado. that's right. mr. liebeler. who is private, first class wald? was he in your hut, too? mr. delgado. he was in our outfit. mr. liebeler. and was he a friend of oswald? mr. delgado. just speaking acquaintances. that's all. he didn't have too many close friends. mr. liebeler. who didn't? mr. delgado. oswald. and these guys were all different, like wald was a good example. he was a sportsman. so was osborne. he was going strictly for sports. and call was the closest you would come to oswald, because he liked classical music and good books, now. mr. liebeler. but wald and osborne, they were more interested in sports and that sort of thing? mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. what about sergeant funk? did you mention him to the fbi? mr. delgado. yes; sergeant funk wasn't in our outfit too long to know oswald. oswald and him didn't hit it off at all. mr. liebeler. how did that come about? mr. delgado. well, one instance was when we were all standing formation, waiting for work call. we were off this day. and call and some other fellows were all around there, you know, making like they were, you know, shooting their guns off, you know, just playing around. so it just happens, when funk came out oswald was the only one doing it. so they grabbed oswald and made him march with a full field pack around the football field in the area. and he bitched when he pulled that tour of duty, and it stuck in my mind, because it's the first time since basic that i seen that happen. but it happened when funk stepped out, oswald the first one he seen. mr. liebeler. did oswald complain about funk after that? mr. delgado. he had nothing to do with him. always tried to find fault. the man had a lot of faults. he was very sloppy. mr. liebeler. who? mr. delgado. funk. and he had a tendency to--he was very--very bad leader, in my opinion, because nco's in the marine corps, you carry a sword, and we loved to see him carry a sword, because when you salute him, he brings the sword up to here (indicating) like this, and one of these days it's going to happen, because the blade would be swinging next to his ear, and we're all waiting for that thing to happen. that's what i remember about funk. he wasn't there too long. mr. liebeler. do you know any of the other fellows in the outfit who might have known oswald? mr. delgado. no. there was one sergeant i was trying to think of, but i couldn't think of his name. i think i gave a name to the fbi agents, holbrook or--something like that. mr. liebeler. do you remember a corporal botelho? mr. delgado. yes. botelho. he was from upstate california, a potato rancher. mr. liebeler. what was his relationship with oswald? mr. delgado. the same as the rest of the fellows: not too close. mr. liebeler. did oswald ever have any arguments with any of these people? mr. delgado. yes. quite frequently he had arguments, but botelho usually would have arguments about, well, botelho was pretty proud about his car, you know, and oswald would find some fault in it, not the right make--he had a chevy, a chevy, and one time i walked in on the discussion. i didn't know what it was about. and they were pretty mad at each other. and, as i said, oswald just took off. but botelho was a pretty quiet fellow. mr. liebeler. what about private, first class roussel? do you remember mentioning him to the fbi agents? mr. delgado. roussel? yes. he was a sports enthusiast. a little, short fellow from louisiana. in fact, i took him home when i got discharged from the marine corps. mr. liebeler. what rank was call? mr. delgado. at the time--at the time when oswald was in the outfit, he was corporal. but then later on he got promoted to a sergeant. mr. liebeler. what was your rank when you were discharged? mr. delgado. corporal. mr. liebeler. oswald was what? mr. delgado. private. mr. liebeler. just a straight private? mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. did oswald ever complain about the fact that he hadn't been promoted? mr. delgado. no, never. never. i don't guess he expected it. i knew he was court-martialed. mr. liebeler. did he tell you that? mr. delgado. no. i got that from the scuttlebutt, one of the guys who knew him from overseas. mr. liebeler. did you hear what he was court-martialed for? mr. delgado. no. after all this came out later, i read about it. mr. liebeler. what is the silent area? mr. delgado. that's what i referred to. he put silent area. that's the war room. mr. liebeler. he, you mean the fbi agent? mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. this is where you actually worked in watching---- mr. delgado. watching the scopes. mr. liebeler. according to the fbi agent's notes, you and oswald were passing notes back and forth. mr. delgado. we worked in a room similar to this, and there would be a big plotting board there with the aircraft in flight, and radar sets would be back there, with the officers back there, and he and i, when we weren't watching the scopes, we would be writing down what aircraft were up, and we had a small lamp on our table. so when we wanted to talk, he would hand a note to me. mr. liebeler. you were not permitted to talk during this time? mr. delgado. the enlisted men. mr. liebeler. the enlisted men? mr. delgado. well, the enlisted men were permitted to talk, but not at this table. the only ones permitted to talk were the controllers who had the aircraft on their scopes. mr. liebeler. your job was to watch one of the scopes? mr. delgado. watch one of the scopes, and when we were relieved from doing that, we sat on the front table and kept track of the aircraft on the plotting board. mr. liebeler. so while you were actually watching the scope, you were permitted to speak? you had to talk at that time? mr. delgado. yes, to the aircraft. mr. liebeler. to keep track of the aircraft? mr. delgado. yes. that's why they didn't want too much noise in there. just enough for the controller to understand the pilot and vice versa. mr. liebeler. there are two of these fbi reports here that tell me that you told the fbi that oswald used to go to los angeles every weeks. mr. delgado. i used to go to los angeles every other week. mr. liebeler. but not oswald? mr. delgado. no. mr. liebeler. and you are sure that you told that to the fbi? mr. delgado. positive. mr. liebeler. you have no question about that at all? mr. delgado. no question about that at all. otherwise i wouldn't have made the statement that he had been with me one time. it would have been common to see him in the train station. but it wasn't. mr. liebeler. do you remember lieutenant depadro? mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. what was he? mr. delgado. he was a first lieutenant. he was from florida. his parents were boatbuilders. he owned--his family owned a big boatbuilding place in florida. i couldn't tell the agents what town. i wouldn't remember that. i thought it was a town, i gave them---- mr. liebeler. who was he? mr. delgado. he was just a section officer. he worked as a controller, and he was also our platoon officer. mr. liebeler. the fbi report indicates that you have told lieutenant depadro that oswald was receiving russian language newspapers; is that correct? mr. delgado. yes. i mentioned that to him on the way from the guard shack at one time, and he just brushed it off. he didn't seem to care. mr. liebeler. who is sergeant lusk? mr. delgado. our sergeant major. mr. liebeler. do you remember talking to the fbi agents about sergeant lusk? mr. delgado. right. mr. liebeler. what did you tell them? mr. delgado. i told them that in one instance sergeant lusk had the misfortune of waking us up in the morning. nobody bothered waking us up, and the formation had gathered, and we were all sleeping away. mr. liebeler. the men in your quonset hut? mr. delgado. right. and i'm the one in charge of them, and about o'clock in the morning i hear the door open up, and i see this guy walking into my room. the first thing i wake up and see was the diamond, the stripes, and he says, "i want to see you men in the old man's office, in class a's." so i knew it was a bad step. we went up there, and he chewed us out for sleeping. and on the way back he said, "you're getting as bad as oz." but it wasn't our fault. it wasn't oswald's fault. he slept away with the rest of us. it was too far for the cq. and he just didn't feel like walking that far. so i told the agents that i was the only corporal on restriction at the same time. mr. liebeler. they restricted your barracks for that? mr. delgado. right. well, it's better to be restricted than to be court-martialed for it. mr. liebeler. it is. do you remember discussing extradition treaties with oswald? mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. what was that discussion? mr. delgado. any crime perpetrated in the states, say somebody was to do something wrong in the united states, and they wanted to get him. we talked about countries he could go to. i said, well, not including cuba, which at that time would take anybody, and russia, he could go to argentina, which i understand is extradition-free. but the other countries all have treaties with the united states. they would get you back. mr. liebeler. in that discussion what did oswald say? mr. delgado. nothing that i remember. mr. liebeler. did he say he would go to argentina if he ever got in trouble like that? mr. delgado. if he ever got in trouble; yes. but this is the period of time we are talking about, of taking over the dominican republic. and this is what i don't understand: oswald brought out a fact about a route to take to go to russia, bypassing all u.s. censorship, like if you wanted to get out without being worried about being picked up. and he definitely said mexico to cuba to russia, and whether or not i'm bringing into the fact these two guys that defected. but that was the same route. and he told me about the two guys, the same way these two guys defected. now, i can't imagine who he meant. i thought he was referring to this later case. but the fbi agent confused me all to heck. he told me it was a year later that these two guys from the united states, working for the mathematicians, something like that, defected, taking the same route that oswald had told me about. i remember him explaining to me, and he had drawn out a regular little map on a scratch paper showing just how you go about doing it. mr. liebeler. oswald did this? mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. your recollection is that he mentioned two men who also defected to russia at that time? mr. delgado. the same route; yes. mr. liebeler. but the fbi man said that didn't happen until a year afterwards? mr. delgado. a year later. mr. liebeler. have you checked up on this to find out when these men did defect? mr. delgado. no. i took it for granted they had the scoop, you know. i assume that i may have been interpreting these events and running the two together. but in my estimation i don't think it was possible. i remember him at the time mentioning two men that had defected, and we were wondering how they got there, and he said this is how he would get there, now. mr. liebeler. did he say these two men had gone from the united states into mexico into cuba? mr. delgado. he said, "this is the route they took. this is the way i would go about it. this is the way they apparently did it." something to that effect. mr. liebeler. your recollection isn't too clear on that? mr. delgado. no. mr. liebeler. but you do recall that oswald mentioned that if he were going to go to russia, that he would go to mexico and then to cuba? mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. now, you read in the newspapers after the assassination that oswald went to mexico? mr. delgado. yes; that he was in mexico for a while on vacation or something like that. mr. liebeler. yes. mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. did you read in the newspaper that oswald had gone to mexico with the idea in mind of going on to cuba? mr. delgado. no. mr. liebeler. you had never read that in the newspaper? mr. delgado. no. mr. liebeler. you didn't know that before now? mr. delgado. no; outside of him being in russia, and he went to mexico on his own. from texas i think he went to mexico. and i didn't know him to cross over into cuba. mr. liebeler. well, now, i am not saying that he actually went to cuba. mr. delgado. or had any---- mr. liebeler. i am saying he went to mexico with the intention of going to cuba. mr. delgado. i didn't read that far. mr. liebeler. you didn't read that? mr. delgado. no. mr. liebeler. so there is no chance that you read this later and are confusing this as something that oswald said before? mr. delgado. no. this was definitely said then, in , and according to the fbi records this supposed same route or near to the same route was done in or . mr. liebeler. did you and oswald ever talk about religion? mr. delgado. he was--he didn't believe in god. he's a devout atheist. that's the only thing he and i didn't discuss, because he knew i was religious. mr. liebeler. he knew that you are religious? mr. delgado. right. mr. liebeler. you are religious? mr. delgado. well, to the effect that i believe there is a god or a maker. mr. liebeler. you attend church regularly? mr. delgado. yes; and in one instance he told me that god was a myth or a legend, that basically our whole life is built around this one falsehood, and things like that. i didn't like that kind of talk. mr. liebeler. can you remember anything else that he said about religion? mr. delgado. no; outside of condemning anything that had to do with religion, you know. he laughed. he used to laugh at sunday school, you know, mimic the guys that fell out to go to church on sundays. he himself never went. mr. liebeler. did he ever quote from the bible or anything like that? mr. delgado. no. mr. liebeler. did he ever make fun of the bible? mr. delgado. no. it was just being a good book, written by a few men, you know, that had gotten together and wrote up a novel. that's all. outside of being a well-written book, there's no fact to it. mr. liebeler. but he didn't quote sections from the bible just to show how wrong it was? mr. delgado. no. mr. liebeler. did you talk to the fbi men about this question? mr. delgado. no. i don't think i did. they asked me about religion, and i told them he was an atheist. that's all. mr. liebeler. you don't remember telling them that oswald used to quote from the bible and show you how wrong it was and tried to make it look silly? mr. delgado. no. that was typical of him. mr. liebeler. but you have no recollection of him doing that? mr. delgado. no. mr. liebeler. do you have any recollection of telling the fbi men he did that? mr. delgado. no; i don't. mr. liebeler. now, this question of socialism, discussions of socialism that you had with oswald: did he compare that with the military life? mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. what did he say about that? mr. delgado. well, this is--military life is the closest to the socialist way of life, where you had--let's see. how did he phrase it--everything was common or something like that. mr. liebeler. did oswald seem to think that socialism would be a good thing? mr. delgado. that's right, for people. if they worked for the military, they could work for everybody, instead of everybody being an individualist and just a few of them having--if they all got together in one common denominator, if everybody worked with the state owning everything, and everybody worked for the state. mr. liebeler. oswald didn't really like the marine corps, did he? mr. delgado. no. mr. liebeler. how could he say that socialism was like the military, and like socialism, and still hate the military? mr. delgado. he liked the life but hated the military. some people love to be bossed around, you know, and told what to do. yet, the same people may not like for certain individuals, let's say like sergeant funk, for instance, to tell them what to do. mr. liebeler. did you ever have the feeling that oswald disliked discipline as a general proposition, or just individual people that told him what to do? mr. delgado. i would say discipline by certain individuals, you know. he used to take orders from a few people there without no trouble at all. just a few people that didn't like him or he didn't like them, or he thought to be--he thought funk to be too stupid to give him any kind of order. that was beyond his level. that was fact. this man was a complete moron, according to oswald. why should he, because he's been longer, have the authority to give him orders, you know? so he had no respect for him. if he had respect, he would follow, go along with you. but if he thought you to be inferior to him or mentally--mental idiot, he wouldn't like anything you told him to do. mr. liebeler. can you remember any other discussions about this comparison of socialism with the marine corps or the military? (short recess.) (question read.) mr. delgado. well, according to the point where he would bring out that the military, there was always one boss, and if he tells everybody to do something, they all do it with no question, and everything runs along smoothly. but in our government, no one person could give that order where the whole populace would obey or act to it. there were a whole bunch of individualists. some may, some won't, and some would argue about it. that's not the same exact word he used, but that's---- mr. liebeler. he indicated that he thought it was a good thing that somebody should give orders like this and---- mr. delgado. that everybody would obey without question. mr. liebeler. were you surprised when you learned that oswald had gone to the soviet union? mr. delgado. yes; i was. mr. liebeler. you had no reason to believe---- mr. delgado. no. mr. liebeler. from your association with him that he was intending to do any such thing? mr. delgado. no. mr. liebeler. while he was in the marine corps; is that correct? mr. delgado. no. mr. liebeler. he never spoke to you or indicated to you in any way that he planned to go to russia? mr. delgado. no. mr. liebeler. you thought he was going, as you mentioned before---- mr. delgado. to switzerland. mr. liebeler. to school in switzerland? mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. you are absolutely certain that you did not indicate to the fbi that oswald accompanied you to los angeles as a regular matter? mr. delgado. no. mr. liebeler. you just told them he went with you once? mr. delgado. once. mr. liebeler. in connection with this discussion of extradition treaties, did oswald say that he would go to russia if he ever got into any trouble? do you remember that? mr. delgado. he had mentioned russia as a place of refuge if he ever got into any trouble, but the answers went around to the other countries, well, i would say, "excluding russia or cuba, argentina would be the next best." mr. liebeler. but you didn't get any impression from him that he intended to go to russia? mr. delgado. no. mr. liebeler. this was just a general discussion of extradition treaties? mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. just general conversation? mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. this pfc, roussel---- mr. delgado. right. mr. liebeler. henry r. roussel, jr.? mr. delgado. right. mr. liebeler. he was from new orleans, right? mr. delgado. no. baton rouge, louisiana, right outside of lsu. mr. liebeler. roussel was from baton rouge? mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. do you remember discussing roussel with the fbi? mr. delgado. right. mr. liebeler. do you remember telling them where he was from? mr. delgado. yes. mr. liebeler. what did you tell them? mr. delgado. baton rouge. on account of he had taken us to the lsu, you know, university--campus. mr. liebeler. this is when you were at biloxi? mr. delgado. no; this is at the terminal when we got discharged. roussel was on leave. i was discharged. i took call--call was discharged also, and call and myself and roussel and another two or three--two other guys, we made a trip to the east coast, but we went down to the south to take roussel home. and i remember it well, because it was the year billy cannon was famous down there at the lsu. mr. liebeler. you didn't tell the fbi that roussel was from new orleans? mr. delgado. no. mr. liebeler. do you remember this pfc. murray? what is his first name? mr. delgado. don. mr. liebeler. don? mr. delgado. don. mr. liebeler. do you remember him as knowing spanish to about the same extent that oswald knew spanish, or more or less? what is your recollection on that? mr. delgado. he knew less than oswald did when oswald--the last time i seen oswald. mr. liebeler. how would you describe murray's command of spanish? mr. delgado. not too good. in his particular instance it was phrases, you know, that kind of talk. mr. liebeler. so that you weren't as successful in your attempts to teach---- mr. delgado. i didn't have the time. see, when we were in biloxi, we were both together, going to school there. but we didn't have the time once we got to california. he was living off post. his wife was there, so we didn't have that much time together. mr. liebeler. did murray move off post right away, or did he live on the post for a while after he came to---- mr. delgado. he lived about--after i got there, about months, and then his wife--he went to florida and got married and brought his wife in to california. i would say he moved off post about february of . mr. liebeler. what did most of the marines call oswald? did they call him lee or---- mr. delgado. no. mr. liebeler. oswald, just by his last name? mr. delgado. just os or oswald. very seldom do you find in the military, at least i haven't come in contact with, where one fellow referred to another fellow by the first name. it's always by the last name, mainly because the name is written on his jacket, you know. i didn't even know his name was lee. mr. liebeler. you didn't know that his first name was lee? mr. delgado. no. mr. liebeler. would you say that you, concerning your contact with murray, just taught him a few phrases or answered questions when he asked you questions about spanish, or would you say that you engaged in any kind of real program to teach him spanish? mr. delgado. no; just answer some questions he had or phrases that he wanted interpreted, that's it. mr. liebeler. do you remember a fellow by the name of charley brown in your outfit? mr. delgado. charley brown? mr. liebeler. yes. mr. delgado. no; that is a name i gave him. i believe it was one of the fellows that was in the barracks with us at one time or another, charley brown, but i can't recall. mr. liebeler. that doesn't ring a bell? mr. delgado. no. mr. liebeler. did you mention the name of charley brown to the fbi? mr. delgado. i may have. we got a charley brown in our outfit now. mr. liebeler. now? mr. delgado. yes; but i may have, may not have mentioned charley brown. i gave them the name of who i thought--felt who the one or two colored fellows were, but i couldn't think of it, and just made a stab in the dark. mr. liebeler. you don't remember what the name was that you told the fbi now? mr. delgado. no; walt, walt--watts, that is the name i gave him, not brown. mr. liebeler. can you think of anything else about oswald that you think might be of some help to the commission in its investigation? mr. delgado. he didn't like the immediate people over him in this particular outfit. all of them weren't as intelligent as he was in his estimation. mr. liebeler. what about your estimation, did you think that they were as smart as oswald was? mr. delgado. oswald, i remember, for instance, that oswald used to get in heated discussions with a couple of the officers there. mr. liebeler. the officers? mr. delgado. right. and they'd be talking about, let's say, politics, which came up quite frequently during a break, let's say, and i would say out of the conversation oswald had them stumped about four out of five times. they just ran out of words, they couldn't come back, you know. and every time this happened, it made him feel twice as good, you know. he thought himself quite proficient with current events and politics. mr. liebeler. he used to enjoy doing this to the others, i could imagine. mr. delgado. he used to cut up anybody that was high ranking, he used to cut up and make himself come out top dog. that's why whenever he got in a conversation that wasn't going his way he would get mad, he'd just walk off, you know, and leave. mr. liebeler. can you think of anything else about him? mr. delgado. he didn't drink. he didn't drink too much. occasional beer. i never seen him drunk. mr. liebeler. did you have any reason to think that he had any homosexual tendencies? mr. delgado. no; never once. it was odd that he wouldn't go out with girls, but never once did he show any indications of being that. in fact we had two fellows in our outfit that were caught at it, and he thought it was kind of disgusting that they were in the same outfit with us, and that is also in the records of the outfit, these two fellows they caught. mr. liebeler. did he ever tell you why he wasn't interested in girls or did you ever discuss that with him? mr. delgado. no; i figured this fellow here looked to me like he was studying and applying himself for a goal, he wanted to become somebody, you know what i mean; later on, after he reached that goal, he will go and get married, or something like that; but the time i knew him he was more or less interested in reading and finding out different ideas here and there. that is, he'd ask what we thought of a current crisis, you know, and he'd argue that point. mr. liebeler. he was a pretty serious-minded fellow? mr. delgado. yes; he was. very seldom clowned around, you know. mr. liebeler. did you think he had much of a sense of humor? mr. delgado. no; he didn't appreciate it. you couldn't pull a practical joke on him, very sarcastic sneer all the time, you know. he had only one bad characteristic, one thing that can really identify him was a quirk he had. i don't know what it was, when he spoke, the side of his face would sink in and cause a hollow and he'd kind of speak through open lips like that, you know, and that's the only thing you could remember about oswald when he spoke, you know, something like that, you know [indicating]. mr. liebeler. did you ever think that he was mentally unbalanced? mr. delgado. he never got real mad where he'd show any ravings of any sort, you know. he controlled himself pretty good. mr. liebeler. if you can't remember anything else about oswald, i have no more questions. on behalf of the commission i want to thank you very much. testimony of daniel patrick powers the testimony of daniel patrick powers was taken on may , , at u.s. courthouse, chicago, ill., by mr. albert e. jenner, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. daniel patrick powers, called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn, was examined, and testified as follows: mr. jenner. this young man is daniel patrick powers. he lives at th avenue west, menomonie, wis. did i correctly state those facts? mr. powers. that's correct. mr. jenner. mr. powers, i have given you what supplements my telephone conversation earlier in the week, mr. rankin's letter--he is general counsel for the commission--advising you of the creation of the commission and enclosing the joint resolution no. , which is a resolution authorizing the creation of the commission; and president johnson's executive order no. , which did create the commission; and then the rules and regulations of the commission itself for the taking of depositions. and from those papers and my conversation with you earlier, you are aware, are you not, that the commission has been enjoined and has the duty of investigating the facts and circumstances surrounding and involved in the assassination of our late president john fitzgerald kennedy. we have been interviewing a number of witnesses, persons who, by pure happenstance, had some contact with some of the people involved, who became involved in that tragic event. one of those persons is a man by the name of lee harvey oswald. it is our information that you had some contact with him while you were in the armed forces of the united states, and i would like to ask you a few questions if i might. you are an ex-service man? mr. powers. that's correct. mr. jenner. and you were a member of the marine corps? mr. powers. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and your number was . mr. powers. ; that's correct. mr. jenner. and the dates of your service, according to our records, are december , --that's wrong, or am i right? you entered the reserves of the marines in december , , and served in active duty in the marines november , to october , ? mr. powers. that's correct. mr. jenner. is that all correct? mr. powers. yes, sir. mr. jenner. i think it will be well if you start out by telling us what and who you are right at the moment. mr. powers. at the moment, presently i'm teaching at the menomonie public school system in wisconsin, and i'm teaching physical education with the additional duties of head football and wrestling coach. mr. jenner. and you are a married man? mr. powers. that's correct. mr. jenner. and with a family? mr. powers. of two children. mr. jenner. two children. and you're a native-born american? mr. powers. that's also correct. mr. jenner. and where were you born? mr. powers. i was born in minneapolis, minn. actually, i believe my birth certificate says minneapolis, minn.; that's correct. mr. jenner. and mrs. powers? mr. powers. was born in st. paul, minn. mr. jenner. now, during your service in the marines, did you become acquainted with a man--fellow marine, known as lee harvey oswald? mr. powers. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and do you recall him now? mr. powers. yes; i do. mr. jenner. when did you--when did that acquaintance first arise? mr. powers. to the best of my recollection, this acquaintance first arose when i was en route to jacksonville--rather from jacksonville, fla., to biloxi, miss.; attended school there, and he was a member of the group that was--we were traveling together, and was a senior marine in charge. mr. jenner. were you the senior marine in charge? mr. powers. that's correct. mr. jenner. what was your rank at that time? mr. powers. at that time my rank was private first class. mr. jenner. now, when was that? mr. powers. i have the travel orders, and if you want them---- mr. jenner. fine. if you have anything from which you may refresh your recollection so that we can have the exact date. i appreciate it. mr. powers. this would be, may is on the date of these orders. mr. jenner. may , ? mr. powers. that's correct. we were authorized to proceed to shipping and receiving station, keesler---- mr. jenner. check that over again and see if in fact it's the d of may . mr. powers. i'm sorry, d of may . mr. jenner. ? mr. powers. yes. "effective may , the below listed marines are directed to report to the th technical training group, d student squadron, block , building , shipping and receiving section, keesler air force base, biloxi, miss., for duty under instruction, usnac&w operators course no. ab , class , for a period of about weeks. upon arrival thereat, they will report to the commanding officer for duty." and then it lists six marines with lee h. oswald as one of these marines. mr. jenner. all right. now. i'm pleased that you have those orders because an fbi report fixes that time as--in the interview they had with you as you having reported to have been in june of , and in fact it was may , ? mr. powers. that's correct, sir. yes. mr. jenner. i have been a little curious as to why you hadn't met him while you were at the naval air technical center at jacksonville, fla. i mean previous to this may d order. mr. powers. there is a possibility, sir; that i had met him, but he doesn't enter into my recollection until this particular period of time. now, in recalling jacksonville, fla., going to school there, the only individual that stands out in my mind, or individuals that were directly concerned with me are the people that i was associated with. mr. jenner. all right. mr. powers. but as far as he was not in this particular social group, if you would like to call it that. mr. jenner. he also was a private, first class at that time, was he not? mr. powers. i don't believe he was, sir. i believe he was a private. i'll go back to these orders and substantiate that. yes; that's correct. he was a private, first class, at that particular time. mr. jenner. now, would you give me the names of--this was a group in which you were the senior and you were in charge of the travel of your group from the naval air technical center in jacksonville, fla., to---- mr. powers. keesler---- mr. jenner. that is spelled k-e-e-s-l-e-r, keesler field, in mississippi, biloxi? mr. powers. that's correct. mr. jenner. and who were the others? mr. powers. there is a pfc. edward j. bandoni. mr. jenner. do you have his number there? mr. powers. yes, i do. mr. jenner. read it, please. mr. powers. . pfc. james n. brereton, ; pfc. donald p. camarata, . mr. jenner. excuse me. would you check that number again as against mine? i had , am i in error? mr. powers. you're in error, sir. it's . the next name that appears is lee h. oswald, private, first class, . and the next name is my name, powers, daniel p., . and the next name that appears is schrand, martin e., private, first class, . mr. jenner. and that is spelled s-c-h-a-r-a-n-d? mr. powers. a-n-d, sir. mr. jenner. yes, -r-a-n-d. or just schand, is it? spell it, please. mr. powers. s-c-h-r-a-n-d. mr. jenner. all right. i want to get that straight because we do have an incident that occurred with respect to him that i want to ask you about. mr. powers. yes, sir. it did. mr. jenner. those are all the men. now, were you fellows destined to be together pretty much as a group from that point on for some time? mr. powers. how do you mean "destined"? mr. jenner. did it turn out that the five of you--your assignments from then on were--ran relatively parallel? mr. powers. up to--you could say that's true to a certain extent. we did attend school there. then from mississippi we were assigned orders to go overseas, and report to el toro, calif. here, while we were at mississippi, it was parallel. we attended the same classes, and in the same particular group as far as the initial starting of training and graduation, if you would like to call it that. mr. jenner. yes. mr. powers. and then once we got to california, they changed somewhat because some of the people reported in early to california and some of them reported later, so this getting into an overseas draft meant that some were leaving out of california earlier than others, of course, which would mean their assignments as far as orders, were different. i would say that four of the names mentioned previously, camarata, oswald, powers, and schrand, went to the far east; bandoni and brereton, i'm not sure where they went. i think they went to the east coast, as i recall. mr. jenner. what was your first impression of oswald when you traveled from jacksonville, fla., to biloxi, and keesler field, in mississippi? mr. powers. well, my first impression of this individual is that he was somewhat, to use the term, "loner." he was an individual who was normally outside the particular group of marines that were in this attachment to keesler. i felt that he was a somewhat younger individual, less matured than the other boys. again, this was just a personal opinion. mr. jenner. by the way, what is your age? mr. powers. my age at the moment is . mr. jenner. all right. and what is the date of your birth? mr. powers. july , . at that particular time i believe i was---- mr. jenner. so you were years older than oswald. he was born october , ? mr. powers. yes; that's correct. mr. jenner. did any incident occur during your travel from the naval air base in jacksonville to keesler field in biloxi, miss., with respect to oswald which arrested your attention or was there any question about him? mr. powers. no. mr. jenner. or was this relatively uneventful? mr. powers. it was uneventful, you might say. there is nothing that you would care to attach any significance to other than to the fact that for the most of us, this was the first time that we ever were on a train and this was somewhat a new experience for the most part for most of us. mr. jenner. i see. and how many days travel were you given? mr. powers. i believe it was an overnight travel. so it probably-- days, may to may , is when we actually reported in here; departed jacksonville, fla., on may and arrived in biloxi, miss., may. so we reported for duty on that particular day. mr. jenner. so you were then there may , ? mr. powers. that's correct. mr. jenner. what was the nature of your training, and then after that, give his training, in keesler field. mr. powers. the nature of my training was to be trained in the operation of radar equipment which was used to guide or locate aircraft in the air. his training was completely parallel to mine. it was similar; it was the same in context. mr. jenner. and is that likewise true of these other men? mr. powers. that's also correct, yes. mr. jenner. and your assignments from day to day were relatively parallel then? mr. powers. i would think they were exactly parallel as far as attending classes. we went to the same classes, we were at the same level of instruction throughout the whole school. i mean we were brought right along. some were above the others, and in retention of what they were learning; we still were similar, i would say exact in the classes that we did attend. mr. jenner. these were in general--this was aircraft control and warning operator course? mr. powers. that's correct, yes. mr. jenner. and it included the classes of uses of radar and other aircraft warning devices? mr. powers. yes, sir. mr. jenner. were you awarded the--what is known as the m.o.s., military occupation specialty? mr. powers. yes; we were. i believe coming out of--excuse me--coming out of jacksonville, fla., we were given a general m.o.s. of , and then after-- mr. jenner. explain what that means to me. mr. powers. m.o.s. is a military occupational specialty, and all it does is categorize you as to what you are going to fall in when they issue you orders; and is aircraft, as i understand; my memory may be somewhat faded or dim. and when we did come out of keesler, then we were added the additional digit of which would make us a ground--i better not say "ground control," radar operator for--as a guess, i would call it an early warning system. mr. jenner. and how long did you boys remain at keesler? mr. powers. exact dates would be from may to june , is when we picked up our orders to go to california. mr. jenner. that's a month from the day? mr. powers. i'm sorry. it says here, "you will stand transferred june , , and you will report to your temporary duty station at july ." this is when we were-- hours--we were supposed to report in the temporary duty station, which was el toro, calif. mr. jenner. did you boys travel out to el toro? mr. powers. from june to july . this was somewhat blurred here. days delay and days travel by commercial. so it would be--june is --it would be and , which would be ---- mr. jenner. days. and , that would be days. mr. powers. yes; so actually it must be days and days travel by commercial carrier. days--rather days' delay. mr. jenner. did you boys travel out to el toro? mr. powers. no; we did not. most of us went on leave from there to--rather from mississippi to our homes and spent time there, and then proceeded to california by commercial vehicle. mr. jenner. and were you living in minneapolis at that time? mr. powers. no; i was not. my leave address, rural route no. , owatonna, minn. that was my parents' home. mr. jenner. did you have any recollection of oswald while he was at keesler? that is, did he continue to be--you used the term "loner"--was he a loner while he was at keesler field? mr. powers. i would say yes and no. a "loner" is a real poor term to use. mr. jenner. all right. mr. powers. i think that he was an individual that found it hard to come in close relationship to any one individual, and i don't say that he was one that did try to avoid it, but it seems like almost he was always striving for a relationship, but whenever he did come, he would get into the group or something that his--that his--just his general personality would alienate the group against him. and to me, he was an individual that--an individual that could come to a point that i don't--that he would come to a point in his life where he would have to face a decision, now, this is just again a personal opinion; he had a large homosexual tendency, as far as i was concerned, and, well, maybe not these tendencies, but a lot of feminine characteristics as far as the other individuals of the group were concerned, and i think possibly he was an individual that would come to a point in his life that would have to decide one way or the other. mr. jenner. on what? mr. powers. on a homosexual or leading a normal life, and again, now, this is a personal opinion. and i think this, more than any other factor, was the reason that he was on the outside of the group in this particular group that we were in there in mississippi. he was always an individual that was regarded as a meek person, one that you wouldn't have to worry about as far as the leadership was concerned, a challenge for leadership or anything. he could easily be led, an individual that was influenced i think by education, and was impressed by a person who had some education, an intelligent individual. he had the name of ozzie rabbit, as i recall. mr. jenner. of what? mr. powers. ozzie rabbit. mr. jenner. ozzie rabbit? mr. powers. yes; now, this goes back to what i had said before that he was the meek mild individual that a person felt if he had something, that he wouldn't really fight to keep it. he would take the easy way out to avoid conflict. but then again, i'm trying to recall this in my mind, and i'm not sure whether something--whether it is something that is really true or something that i want to recall---- mr. jenner. yes, i would like---- mr. powers. about him. mr. jenner. in your testimony, do the best you can to give me your impressions as of that time, as free as it is possible for you to do of influence upon that recollection by the course of events that took place on the d of november, and what you read about this and thereafter, because it's important to us to get as objective a report from you as we possibly can. mr. powers. i realize that. and this is why i say i'm not sure that it's really true or something that you want to remember. it seems to me there was an incident that he had a fight in the barracks at that particular time. mr. jenner. excuse me. you men were quartered together in the same barracks? mr. powers. that's correct, in the same wing of this particular barracks. they separated the marines from the air force as much as possible, although we did have air force personnel in the room with us, two in the room. it seems to me at this particular time there was some kind of a squabble and i can't recall what it was over, and this was the first time that he actually showed, say, some backbone or willpower that he stood up to somebody, or what the incident was over, i can't recall, but there is something that sticks in the back of my mind there that something came up at this particular time. he was a good student, as i recall. i can't say that he was any better than anybody else. but again, as an individual he appeared to be just as good as anybody wanted to be. mr. jenner. our records show that he finished this course seventh in a class of . is that score somewhat of his ability? mr. powers. i couldn't truthfully say; at that time i wasn't qualified to say who was---- mr. jenner. were you boys advised as to how each of you fared in the course of your studies? mr. powers. i can't truthfully say that either. i don't remember. mr. jenner. mr. reporter, i did interrupt the witness when he was talking about his impression about oswald. would you read that back to me, please? (whereupon, the record was read by the reporter.) mr. jenner. had he had this nickname, ozzie rabbit, did he acquire that before or--had he already acquired it when you boys came from jacksonville to biloxi, or did you give it to him when you arrived at keesler? mr. powers. i think it was attached to him at keesler as any individual in our particular group were concerned; this was the first contact that most of us had with each other as individuals. we were brought together here at keesler, and, of course, living and going to school together and in close proximity with each other, we did get to know each other personally more than at any other time. i think this is the period of time that it was attached to my own mind as well as the other people in the group. mr. jenner. i take it you felt he was not aggressive as far as leadership was concerned, and you boys felt that you didn't have to worry about him as competitively? mr. powers. i would say so, yes; but of course, at this time of our careers, if you would like to call it that, of marines, there wasn't any real significance attached to leadership. it was still--we were all the same rank. of course, one being in the service longer, there was always a senior marine as far as i was concerned, and i was the marine in charge of this particular class if you--i think this is the way they call it, class or flight squadron, whatever they call it, and well, while at keesler, i was promoted to corporal, which again was an advancement in leadership, and, of course, there could never be any differentiation of privates. i was a corporal over privates, first class, and still with the closest relationship that we had there, i don't think there was any rank barrier or difference here. i think we were all regarded that we were just marines at this school and not trying to enforce authority at any particular time in which we would get more in the infantry of the marines. there a corporal is a corporal, but in going to school like this, you wouldn't enforce discipline to a point where people jumped when a person of higher rank said something. mr. jenner. what was your rank when you were mustered out? mr. powers. out of the marine corps? mr. jenner. yes. mr. powers. i was a sergeant. mr. jenner. what gave you the impression that he had or might have had homosexual tendencies? mr. powers. again, this is an unqualified opinion, and---- mr. jenner. did you say "unqualified"? mr. powers. yes, because obviously, i'm not qualified to say one is or is not, but having seen a number of them and seeing their characteristics, as far as manner of walk, dress, and just their personality, i would say possibly his was similar to them in some respects. mr. jenner. you found him a feminine---- mr. powers. i would say yes; a lot of his mannerisms were closely related to other homosexuals that i had seen in my life up to that period of time. mr. jenner. you said, in the course of your general statement, that your group had the impression that he might be easily led. can you elaborate on that? mr. powers. well, let's not say the group felt that he was easy to lead. i felt--let's say that i felt he was easily led, and the group felt that it was kind of a group response that you would get here if what was good for the group was good for everyone, and he would go along with what the group went along with, and he wouldn't go out on the limb as one individual; at least at this particular period of time he did not. and i would say he was a group response--he was easily led; he was responsive to the group as a whole. at the same time i felt that he was an individual such as i see today. i see individuals that they are fascinated by education, and of course, not knowing what his iq was, and what his capacity for education was--still at the time he impressed me as an individual who was quite intelligent and he would read quite a lot, and so i would say he, by "being led," it would be more of a personal opinion of my own that he was an individual that you could sway. now, these are opinions that i have of him after being educated further myself, and seeing people every day, and in the teaching situation that i'm in, that is somewhat similar to a mass hysteria, and i think he is the one that you could brainwash or maybe that's the wrong term. i think he is the individual that you would brainwash, and quite easy, and this is the opinion of the personality and mind that he did have. i think once he believed in something, by gosh he believed in it, and he stood in his beliefs. mr. jenner. and how long have you been teaching? mr. powers. this will be my third year of teaching now. mr. jenner. what is the extent of your formal education beyond high school, if any? mr. powers. the extent of my formal education beyond high school was a bachelor of science degree and presently working on a master's degree from the university, and this will either be in physical education or guidance; i'm not sure which way i'll go yet. mr. jenner. did you have your university of minnesota education attendance after you left the marines? mr. powers. i had year at the university before going to the marine corps, and then i went after my service. mr. jenner. were you aware when you were in the service, or this period about which we are speaking, that he had not graduated from high school? mr. powers. let's say i wasn't consciously aware of it. i was aware of the fact that i was one of the few boys or the individuals there that had a college education, and consequently also i had, after being in the marines a short period of time, i had a firm belief in finishing my education. and i think this here put--or any individual, not only myself, or any individual that had a college education, there was a number of them while i was in the marines at that particular time that did have a college education, we felt intellectually we were somewhat above these boys in this particular group that we ran in this particular time. and i think this was borne out by the fact that we did more serious reading and we got into less crap games and went on less liberties and things of this nature, and at this particular time, i only had year of college education. mr. jenner. do you have any feeling with respect to oswald, any disappointment on his part of his limited education at this stage of his life or any thing resulting or desire on his part for further education? did you ever have any discussions with him on the subject? mr. powers. his opinions, is that what you're asking? mr. jenner. yes. mr. powers. i think that the reason he was in the marine corps was there wasn't anything better for him to do at this time, was the reason that he felt, and at least now, in recalling, again trying to recall, he felt this way about it. and he was somewhat of a rolling stone; he didn't care to go to school. and he'd just as soon go into the service to get out of the people's hair at home. this type of attitude. mr. jenner. did he get into any fights or arguments other than marines jostling around as you would normally do, anything that attracted your attention of any kind? mr. powers. no; i would not say so. there isn't anything that stays in my mind at this time. mr. jenner. did you return home and visit your folks during this---- mr. powers. yes; that's correct. mr. jenner. leave before you had to return? you had to be at el toro? mr. powers. yes, sir. mr. jenner. i gathered that you had the impression that he--during this period of time that, this leave period--that he visited new orleans? mr. powers. now that you brought new orleans up, he used to--he used to go home to new orleans from biloxi there, as i recall again. this was only a short distance, between and miles, and he would go home on weekend passes; and once we were through classes on friday, we were free as long as we were in class again on monday morning, as i recall. and it seems to me that he mentioned, or he did go home, that he wasn't in mississippi or the biloxi area on weekends. i might be wrong in this, but it seems to me that he did go all weekend, and i think that you did mention new orleans, that this possibly sticks in my mind as associated with new orleans and him at biloxi, miss. mr. jenner. when you boys had liberty, did you tend to stick together on your liberties or on occasion take your liberties together, one or more of you? mr. powers. as i recall now, as soon as school was over every day, we had our liberty cards, we could leave, and then we could come back as long as we were back on base in the morning to attend classes, and at this particular period of time, i was married and my interests were somewhat different than the other fellows. mr. jenner. was your wife on the base? mr. powers. no; she was not. she was living with my parents back home in minnesota, owatonna. and my liberty usually consisted of going to the beach and lying around suntanning or fooling or swimming, and lots of times maybe three or four of us would go down--in my mind, we used to eat all the spaghetti that we could get down there, and we would go downtown once in a while; but as far as particularly going together, i would possibly say that the boys from the east coast, bandoni and brereton, they were quite close, and camarata, that particular group, they were quite close, and--but if we were just going down to lie around the beach, we would usually go over, and i don't recall oswald going with us, and i don't recall in my mind that he was on liberty. and this would possibly bear out the fact that it's in my mind that he went to new orleans on weekends because it seems that he wasn't ever around there. mr. jenner. but even at night when you were excused from class, did he have a tendency to join the group or not join the group on your leave card periods? mr. powers. well, there were so many things. normally, as i recall, it wasn't a general practice that we left the base during the week. now, we usually stayed around the barracks and either studied or go over to the gym and work out or something of this nature, and i can't recall him in the barracks except when we would have inspection on saturdays or something in the air force doing the inspection, and all the marines were complaining that we shouldn't have to stay for an air force inspection, and again this substantiates the idea that he went home to new orleans because i think it came once a month or something, and we happened to get in the period that we had two of them, and he was anxious to go because inspection was saturday morning, and he wanted to get out early out of the base to leave, and he had to stand inspection. mr. jenner. was this a fair statement, mr. powers, whether or not he went to new orleans on his weekend leave, he did not remain in the biloxi area, is your impression? mr. powers. i couldn't say truthfully because i don't know what you mean by the "biloxi area." at least he did not remain on the air force base. he left the air force base. now, if he remained in biloxi proper, the town, the community, i'm not sure. but it was my opinion that he was not in the close proximity. he would be traveling over a period of time, then he would return to the base. mr. jenner. our records show that at the time he left keesler to travel to el toro, he was rated . in conduct and . in proficiency. what is that? what do those grades mean in terms of the maximum or the minimum? mr. powers. i'm not sure what the scale--i cannot recollect what the scale is. i think it was . is the top. mr. jenner. you're right. and would . in conduct and . in proficiency be a pretty fair rating? mr. powers. well, going back to what you said, he graduated seventh out of , it would be . , which would be pretty good in the upper third of his class, so to speak. . couldn't be too far behind. so i would imagine on a five scale, . would be average. so . would be b plus. mr. jenner. how did that compare with yours, by the way? mr. powers. i don't know what mine was. mr. jenner. you don't? mr. powers. no; i don't have any idea what my proficiency report was. mr. jenner. i see. i take it that none of you boys traveled together to el toro, you went by your own respective routes? mr. powers. camarata and myself, seems to me we flew into chicago together, and from there on, he went to cedar rapids, iowa. and i continued on to minneapolis in the plane there; there was another marine that went with us from, i think now, from mississippi--from biloxi into new orleans. we went on the bus together. mr. jenner. was it one of your group? mr. powers. yes; i think so. it was one of our group that was leaving. and i want to say, it was bandoni---- mr. jenner. that's your best recollection? mr. powers. but once into new orleans, it seems that camarata and i--this is going through my mind of the limousine and on to the airport, and we continued on. maybe there was three of us, i'm not sure. but it seems to me there was two of us, and i think we were at a movie theater, as my mind goes on. and we did run into some of the other fellows there. mr. jenner. but not oswald? mr. powers. i can't say truthfully if we ran into him or not. mr. jenner. and el toro is the marine station---- mr. powers. that's correct, sir. mr. jenner. what was your reporting date at el toro? mr. powers. my reporting date at el toro was , july . mr. jenner. do you have any recollection of what oswald did during the intervening period, that is, this leave period? mr. powers. no; i do not. except possibly there was something that was stuck in my mind: we were on the ship going overseas, he mentioned texas and his mother. that's all that i can recollect. mr. jenner. so that he might have visited his mother in texas? mr. powers. it stays in my mind of texas and his mother. whether this is truly true or not, it sticks there. and what the relationship was, i don't know, or if he did visit her or when, i'm not sure. i think i was under the opinion that he was from texas. he used to say--i want to say dallas, but i'm not sure again if that is planted---- mr. jenner. fort worth? mr. powers. yes; maybe it was fort worth, but it was some place in texas, but i can't say for sure with everything going; again i don't know. mr. jenner. did he say anything during these periods or thereafter of having been a boy in new orleans up to his high school period, having lived for a while in texas? mr. powers. now, texas and new orleans are not associated in my mind. new orleans, this is where he used to go on weekends; this is where he used to go quite a bit when he was in mississippi. but as far as, let's say, hometown, or home state, it was in my mind; it stuck it was texas, but there was no relationship between both of them other than this is where he went. mr. jenner. how long did you remain at el toro? mr. powers. we arrived the th of july in el toro, calif. this is when i reported in. now, when i actually went overseas, it was in the august draft, i don't--to be truthful, i can't say when i went overseas. it was sometime in august, around the first of august. mr. jenner. could it have been the middle of august, august th? mr. powers. it's possible. i cannot say for sure. mr. jenner. all right. mr. powers. i have no record of when i did actually. mr. jenner. all right. assuming that was the date, you were at el toro approximately a month then? mr. powers. that's correct; yes, sir. mr. jenner. and what was your classification there? mr. powers. how do you mean "classification"? mr. jenner. well, our records show that oswald was classified as a replacement trainee. mr. powers. that's probably what i was, too, a replacement trainee for overseas. mr. jenner. what was oswald's response or attitude toward higher authority? mr. powers. up to this particular period of time, i don't think he showed any attitude or response to higher authority other than he was like the rest of the trainees, if you want to call it that; he did what he was told and that was it. i think his aggressive attitude came after he was away from his initial exposure to the marine corps-type discipline. mr. jenner. were you with him during that period of time? mr. powers. i was with him overseas. well, he was actually in the same unit as i was until i came home, and this is where i noticed that he had started to be more aggressive, and outgoing in his manner. in other words, he took on a new personality, and now he was oswald the man rather than oswald the rabbit. mr. jenner. this was after you boys got overseas? mr. powers. yes; i think so. i think--this is when i noticed--it can be safe to say that he did start to have more incidents of where he would stand for his own rights if there were rights to be had. in other words, he was going to take everything that came, and he wasn't going to let anybody else get what he could have. mr. jenner. do you remember anything in the particular incident that you think might be helpful to the commission during that -month period of time that you were at el toro? mr. powers. at this particular time, i have no memory of the individual at all. it seems to me that he reported in after i did, i think, and this is where again something is in my mind of texas. he said he was in texas for this period of time, and him coming--being there first--the most we got into--i think we got into an august draft, and i don't think he was in the same draft that i was in. i think i reported in and got in the july draft. now, again, i'm not sure on this, but it seems to me that he was in a different draft than i was, and we were all in the same barracks to start, and then they separate you in these replacements drafts, and again it's in my mind when he reported in or possibly he came in late off his leave, he took an extra week or something. it might be in my mind, i can't say for sure, but it still remains there, that he was in texas or texas was the area he was visiting or he took his leave in. mr. jenner. well, then, you were--you boys were shipped out from el toro? mr. powers. yes. mr. jenner. for overseas? mr. powers. yes. mr. jenner. was he on the same ship? mr. powers. well, he must have been in the same draft; he was on the same ship. mr. jenner. from what port did you sail? mr. powers. in my--we left from san diego. mr. jenner. do you remember the name of the ship? mr. powers. no; i don't remember the name of the ship. mr. jenner. would it refresh your recollection if i uttered the name bexar, b-e-x-a-r; would that mean anything to you? mr. powers. i think possibly, yes; i think it was on the peter boats and mike boats. mr. jenner. what is a mike boat? mr. powers. these are the terms given to these landing crafts. mr. jenner. that were on the ship itself? mr. powers. yes; they're running over the ship; they're used for loading and unloading of supplies and running back and forth while we're on the harbor, taking people off leave and from. mr. jenner. now, your embarkation was--would you check your orders, the st of august, am i correct? mr. powers. i'm not sure. from here i don't have any orders. mr. jenner. all right. mr. powers. i think these orders are all in the group orders, and they are not given to individuals as such. mr. jenner. i see. all right. you went from san diego to what port, what foreign port? mr. powers. yokohama. again, i'm not sure. i think it was yokohama. mr. jenner. yokosuka rather than yokohama? mr. powers. yes; there is two of them right in the same proximity. yokosuka is probably the right one. i'm not sure now. mr. jenner. what was the military base? mr. powers. that we reported to? mr. jenner. yes. mr. powers. atsugi. mr. jenner. a-t-s-u-g-i? mr. powers. that's correct. mr. jenner. and that is the marine base? mr. powers. navy base with marine squadrons flying out of it, but it's primary mission is a navy base. mr. jenner. now, were these same boys, bandoni, brereton, camarata, yourself, schrand, and oswald, were you still a group? mr. powers. i don't think bandoni was part of the group; no. he must have been because i have pictures. i don't think that he---- mr. jenner. by the way, do you have pictures of--any pictures of these taken during the course of your time in the marines which oswald appears in? mr. powers. just the one picture that i have of him appearing is a class-type photo when we got out of keesler air force base, and it shows marine and air force personnel that graduated. i have never run across any pictures of him of barracks life or anything like that. going back to your original question: brereton was on it, and camarata and schrand--maybe schrand came later, i can't say for sure. but oswald and myself, but i think that bandoni went on the east coast, but brereton went to iwakuni, which is another air force--rather marine base, and camarata went down to a helicopter base somewhere in japan, down in the harbor somewhere. i used to call him on the phone once in a while and talk to him. and brereton, i think--no, by gosh, maybe bandoni was down at--no, that was mike cainey. we were flying between the philippines, and if he would stop in at iwakuni, i would stop in and see mike. mr. jenner. where? mr. powers. iwakun, this is a base in the lower part of japan. mr. jenner. i-o-w-c---- mr. powers. i-o-w-a-k-o-n-n-i, i think. iwakuni--i-e-, possibly. i think it's -i. i don't know. i'm lost, where i was. it seems to me that brereton was over there, too, at iwakuni, but i don't recall if i possibly saw him over there once or twice; it was either on a football trip or when i was flying down to the philippines after wrestling season. mr. jenner. now, tell us about the trip over to yokosuka, the life on the boat and what he did and what you did and what things you did together, if anything, conversations that you had, those that you overheard, your opinion of him during that period, and reaction of the platoon or group to oswald. mr. powers. at this particular period of time, now, you're starting to get into, say, the rank association that people of higher rank associate with people of lower rank at this particular period of time, you do see it more coming in the group relationship and this was brought about by my becoming a corporal, and i wasn't assigned some of the tasks that the privates, first class, and privates were assigned, and i recall i didn't have to do anything going over, and there were some duties assigned naturally, and with him as an individual, i can remember that he taught me how to play chess going over, and he was quite a proficient chess player, and, well, let's not say he was not real proficient; he used to beat me, and it wouldn't take too much proficiency to beat me. and he would sit and play, and we would maybe play--usually we played game a day, and sometimes we would play to hours, playing chess. mr. jenner. four? mr. powers. four to eight hours playing chess. and i got to a point where i beat him once in a while, and it would irritate him a little bit that someone beat him, but not to a point where he would get violent or anything of this nature, but he was real happy and pleased when he would win. and again looking back at this, it gives me some impressions about him. he was real happy to win, like he was accomplishing something in his life. and he used to read quite a bit. i remember we got these paperbacks, and there was some good literature in these, and he would swap books back and forth, and he would never be reading any of the shoot-em-up westerns or anything like that. normally, it would be a good type of literature; and the one that i recall was "leaves of grass," by walt whitman. and he had it for a period of time, and i would want to read it for myself, and as it came about, he did let me have it. i think i still have the book. mr. jenner. do you recall the titles of any other books that he read? mr. powers. oh, i'm not saying that he read them, but the reason that i recall these titles is because i still have most of these paperbacks that i kept quite a few of these, and they were the "age of reason," and "age of enlightenment," and whether he read these or not, i'm not sure. but i think there is something on the "greatest president of the united states," and democracy, and books of that nature. mr. jenner. where did you obtain these books? mr. powers. they were given to the troops--i'll use that for a lack of a better term--periodically throughout the voyage going over, where they got them, i don't know. i think they probably just picked them up and it was standard procedure, i assume. mr. jenner. they were books that were distributed through the marines? mr. powers. that's correct. mr. jenner. and you could read them or not as you saw fit? mr. powers. right. mr. jenner. and your recollection is that you do recall oswald did read "leaves of grass"? mr. powers. right. whether he read the other books, i'm not sure, but this leads me to the impression that he was trying to read something that was deeper than the average paperback that you see in the drug store or something of that nature. mr. jenner. these were books which you were interested in? mr. powers. yes; these were books which i was interested in mainly because the image that i held at that time that i was more educated than the other individuals and in order to maintain this image, and for my own personal satisfaction as well, i read these books, and i think this is--whether he read these books for his own personal satisfaction or to create an image similar to the ones that we had--i say "we," the people that had more education than the average marine there. mr. jenner. was he a voracious reader? mr. powers. what do you mean by the word "voracious"? mr. jenner. did he read a great deal? mr. powers. i can't truthfully say. i think everyone at that particular time read more than they possibly did at any other period that they had in the marine corps. mainly, you are in a limited space and this was the thing to do; it was easy to do, and you could entertain yourself this way. mr. jenner. yes. i take it it was not your impression, then, at least at this stage of the game, he devoted a great deal of his time to reading as distinguished from what other marines were doing in that regard? mr. powers. well, i don't know. it seems to me when we were in mississippi that he did read some--he was doing further reading than other--what the normal individual was doing at that time. i can't recall what would substantiate that in my mind; it just stuck in my mind that he did some reading, or all during this period of time that he was an individual that, rather than play poker or go out on liberty, he was just as well content to stay and read a book or things of this nature, and this may be that he was outside of the group and he did this to---- mr. jenner. you mentioned poker, so i assume that you played poker on the trip over? mr. powers. i don't play. i don't play cards. mr. jenner. well, were there poker games, however, on the way over? mr. powers. i imagine there was. there was card games to some nature, whether it was poker or something, i don't know. to be truthful, i don't recall. mr. jenner. did oswald engage in the card games whenever there were---- mr. powers. i don't know; i don't recall. mr. jenner. do you recall whether he did any gambling? mr. powers. i don't recall; no, sir. mr. jenner. anything else that you recall occurred on this ship, either something that occurred or impressions that you have or now have of this man during this period of time? mr. powers. no. mr. jenner. for the purpose of perhaps refreshing your recollection, was there an occasion in which he made some comment that "all the marine corps did was to teach you to kill," and after you got out of the marines, you might be good gangsters? mr. powers. yes; he made that statement. now, whether it was at this particular period of time or not, i'm not sure. mr. jenner. you do recall that he made that statement? mr. powers. that statement was made and i think it was--he was probably parroting somebody else that made the statement previously. and i think it was--this was a common statement, but as i recall, he--he did say this. mr. jenner. yes. mr. powers. but now when we were playing chess at one period of time, whether it was on the ship or not, i'm not sure, possibly it could have been in japan, but it would most likely have been on that ship. mr. jenner. i take it, however, that this you might classify as some griping---- mr. powers. yes. mr. jenner. over the marines? mr. powers. this would be normal. mr. jenner. or something similar? mr. powers. you wouldn't attach any significance to it. someone would say, "the marine corps stinks," or something of this type, and whether one individual said it or another, you wouldn't attach any significance to it. mr. jenner. i see. atsugi is about miles from tokyo, isn't it? mr. powers. yes; it is. mr. jenner. when you reached atsugi, what was your assignment? mr. powers. we were assigned to marine air control squadron no. , and assigned to crews within this squadron. mr. jenner. did you have some abbreviation for that? mr. powers. macs , m-a-c-s . mr. jenner. and you were headquartered at the naval air station at atsugi, japan? mr. powers. yes, sir. mr. jenner. oswald--what did he serve as? i mean, was he a radar operator? mr. powers. i assume he was a radar operator. from here i lost almost total contact with the individual other than just seeing him. i played football during the fall and during this period of time we would play, we played in the bowl games, and the squadron went down to the philippines, and i stayed in japan. mr. jenner. you didn't go to the philippines? mr. powers. i did at a later date, but when the rest of the squadron went down to the philippines, they went down, oh, i don't know, probably sometime in november, and i stayed down and played football, and then after that, i was wrestling--i wrestled for a while, and then out of the blue came orders to go to the philippines, and from that time, i think this was sometime in the middle of january---- mr. jenner. what was the function of macs ? mr. powers. it was a squadron composed of a radar group. mr. jenner. about how many men? mr. powers. oh, in estimating, i would say personnel at the most, and its function was to support landings with the control of aircraft to particular target areas or target sites, and you would control the aircraft by radar rather than trying to use it all by visual flight. mr. jenner. when you say "control aircraft," what do you mean by that? mr. powers. you would not actually control the aircraft by flying it yourself, the operator or pilot would have to control the aircraft, and you would direct him as far as his turn is concerned, and his degrees, and turn ° right, and you would control him to an intercept, so to speak, to another aircraft and you would intercept it until he got in range or where he could see it visually, and they took over. mr. jenner. and you would be communicating with him in some fashion? mr. powers. yes; you would have him on radio, and at the same time, when we were in atsugi, we were assigned, it seems to me, a particular sector of the horizon to cover to protect against incoming foreign aircraft, and you plotted it all on the board. you called it a "bogey" coming in, and they would scramble aircraft and intercept this bogey, if it didn't have the identification system on. mr. jenner. and were these simulated enemy---- mr. powers. yes; i would say in our operations that they were in the philippines, as i recall, it was all simulated. when we were in japan, however, you would get the actual thing where you would have the scramble aircraft on a hot bogey--i think is the term that they used--and maybe it would be a russian aircraft or chinese aircraft straying into this particular area, and they would scramble aircraft after it and go up and take a look-see. and that is as far as i knew. mr. jenner. and so while you were in japan, you would be actually looking for hot bogeys? mr. powers. yes; i actually never spent that much time on the site. i was playing football or---- mr. jenner. yes. mr. powers. so as i recall, that is what we used to do. mr. jenner. did oswald play football? mr. powers. no; he was not athletic in any form. mr. jenner. he didn't engage in any athletics? mr. powers. not while i was in contact with him; no. mr. jenner. you mentioned when you boys were in keesler you sometimes went to the gym. did he go to the gym and work out? mr. powers. i can't recall that he ever did; no, sir. mr. jenner. you eventually rejoined the squadron or the group, did you, in the philippines? mr. powers. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and when was that? mr. powers. oh, it was in the middle of january or february. mr. jenner. of ? mr. powers. of ; yes, sir. mr. jenner. and where in the philippines? mr. powers. cubi point. mr. jenner. c-u-b-i? mr. powers. yes; cubi point. mr. jenner. and what was the nature of that installation? mr. powers. this was just temporary quarters for the squadron. they were caught in between. they were at an operation early in november and then this--something---- mr. jenner. that would be november of ? mr. powers. yes. something flared up, i believe, in indonesia, somewhere in that area, and they held the squadron on the ship for a particular period of time; and then there was another operation going to start in february or sometime, or march, and they just---- mr. jenner. of ? mr. powers. yes, sir; instead of sending them back up to japan, and then have to come all the way back again, they just put them ashore at cubi point. and they just set up a temporary base and continued the operation out of there. there was actually no radar site setup at that area, and we just got the gear and other material and trucks and apparatus and things, and equipment was repaired and made ready for the next operation. mr. jenner. and during your stay at the philippines, were you ever at subic bay instead of cubi point? mr. powers. cubi point and subic bay are at close proximity. cubi point is the landing actually, and subic bay is the harbor, and you can almost call it one actual installation as far as i was concerned, but they were designated--cubi point was the landing strip and subic bay was the landing area. mr. jenner. in some of oswald's autobiographical material prepared either then or later, he refers to the fact that it was at subic bay, and that doesn't appear in the official orders, and we wondered where he got that, and now you explained it for us. mr. powers. you traveled in between both, as far as they had the swimming point there; i remember it was at subic--isn't it s-u-b-i-c? mr. jenner. i don't want to say it. mr. powers. i thought it was subic; i'm probably wrong. mr. jenner. i won't say that you're wrong. i think you're right. it's cubi point and subic bay. mr. powers. yes; there was actually one installation in my mind. they were separated, but one was the harbor for the ships and the other was for the aircraft. mr. jenner. now, was the same group that we--that you described earlier that came from jacksonville, fla., still together at cubi point when you rejoined the squadron? mr. powers. all but certain elements. i think the people in my particular group that originated in jacksonville, the only people that were left was schrand, oswald, and myself. and the rest of them were dispersed in japan or the far east area or in the united states somewhere. mr. jenner. and did an incident occur with respect to mr. schrand? mr. powers. yes; he was--this happened after i arrived from the japanese mainland. he was on guard duty one evening and he was shot to death. now, i have never seen the official report or anything, but the scuttlebutt at that time was that he was shot underneath the right arm and it came up from underneath the left neck, and it was by a shotgun which we were authorized to carry while we were on guard duty. mr. jenner. were these also sometimes called riot guns? mr. powers. riot guns; yes. and that is the only thing that--significance i attach to it other than he was either leaning against the shotgun or was fooling with it, but he was shot anyway. mr. jenner. was there--you don't know what the official finding was with respect to---- mr. powers. no; i do not. i never had access to anything of this nature. mr. jenner. was there any scuttlebutt about it? mr. powers. no; other than that he was fooling with the weapon. other than that, we couldn't--as i recall, we could never realize how a guy could have shot himself there other than he was leaning on it this way [indicating], and "boom," it went off. mr. jenner. as far as you boys were concerned at that time, was there any scuttlebutt or speculation about anyone of you being involved in that incident? mr. powers. not to my recollection at all. mr. jenner. when i say "you," that includes oswald. mr. powers. not that i know of; no, sir. mr. jenner. weren't there some instructions in connection with the use of those riot guns when you were on guard duty that you would keep the chamber free of slugs? mr. powers. i'm almost sure--again i can't say for sure, but it seems to me that we were issued three shells, and--again, i'm not sure; it seems to me that we were not supposed to put them in the weapon or supposed to put them in the weapon and keep it out of the chamber; in other words, you jacked it into the chamber if you needed it, but your chamber itself should be kept free. mr. jenner. to avoid accidents? mr. powers. yes; i think this was the rule because you would have to click them to get them out this way, and to avoid an incident such as happened. mr. jenner. did you boys do any maintenance work in connection with your radar scanning assignment? mr. powers. we were not trained to do it; no. they had the assigned personnel do it. mr. jenner. do you recall anything in this connection with respect to guard duty relating to some kind of a special airplane? mr. powers. yes, we--this happened again, i think, after the rest of the squadron left to go back to the japanese mainland, and some of us were assigned temporary duty in cubi point there. i believe there were two of us, or three of us from the squadron. mr. jenner. who were they? mr. powers. murphy; i believe, was one of them; and private--private, first class murphy, and i don't recall the other individuals, who the other individuals were, but anyway, we were assigned there, and at this particular time, they were closely guarding a hangar. and as it developed, this was, not knowing then what it was, it was a u- aircraft, but this was after the rest of the squadron left, which oswald was included in, for the mainland. mr. jenner. oswald was included in a group that had returned to the mainland? mr. powers. yes, sir. mr. jenner. was oswald still at cubi point when marine schrand was shot? mr. powers. i believe he was; yes. the whole squadron was there then, so he must have been there; yes. mr. jenner. but schrand's guard duty was not guard duty in connection with these special airplanes of which you now speak? mr. powers. well, no; i don't believe so. i can't say that for sure, what it was regarding. but i don't think so. i think they were on the site guarding the equipment that he had there, and it seems to me that the air force moved in that particular hangar after the squadron went up. i think this is correct. mr. jenner. was there a--did you have an assignment when you were shipped to corregidor? mr. powers. yes; this assignment came between when i originally flew in to cubi point and then the squadron went on another operation where they were preparing--after they prepared their equipment there, and we went down to corregidor and we stayed there approximately a month or weeks at the most, and then we came back and then the people, they dropped off the four or five personnel that were on temporary duty, and then the rest of the squadron continued on to the mainland. mr. jenner. was oswald part of the group that was assigned to corregidor? mr. powers. yes; the whole squadron was assigned to it. mr. jenner. and what did you do at corregidor? mr. powers. we participated in a--i think it was the d marine division in the operation of military exercises. mr. jenner. the same sort of thing that you had been doing back in cubi point? mr. powers. yes; with the exception now that we were plotting simulated aircraft, scanning for it. mr. jenner. any incident occur during that period involving oswald? mr. powers. no; nothing that i recall. something sticks in my mind about being on mess duty, but i can't recall what the incident was. i have a picture of it in my mind. mr. jenner. you did mention to the fbi when you were interviewed that he was on mess duty, and i assume in the first place he was not on mess duty all the time while he was in the philippines, was he? mr. powers. no; you're assigned--privates and privates first class are assigned this duty periodically. i think you're assigned one week out of the year. mr. jenner. this was not a mess duty assignment by way of punishment? mr. powers. i don't think so. mr. jenner. how long were you at corregidor, a couple of months? mr. powers. i want to say to weeks, but it could have been longer. mr. jenner. what was your means of transportation to and from corregidor? mr. powers. lst. mr. jenner. that's landing ship tank? mr. powers. yes. mr. jenner. and when was this? along about march of , is that your recollection? mr. powers. i think it was; it was in this late-february-early-march period. mr. jenner. when you returned to cubi point, you stayed there, but oswald and some of the other members of the squadron returned to japan? mr. powers. yes; i think they left out four, four of us stayed behind at cubi point. mr. jenner. did you do--did you return then to atsugi? mr. powers. yes; i did. mr. jenner. about when? mr. powers. i think it was in may. mr. jenner. of ? mr. powers. yes, sir; late april or early may of . mr. jenner. when you reached atsugi, was oswald there? mr. powers. during this period of time, i think he was there, but it was shortly thereafter or just before i got there he was--he shot himself in the hand or in the leg or something. i don't remember which part of the body it was. mr. jenner. in the left arm or elbow. mr. powers. i'm not sure. i couldn't truthfully say what it was. he was in a different part of the barracks and i think it was in the evening that they hauled him out in an ambulance; yes, it must have been. mr. jenner. what was your information and what is still your information with respect to that incident? how it occurred, and whatnot. mr. powers. he was fooling with a weapon, whether he was cleaning it or what he was doing with it; i don't know. you see, this is what i recall: he was cleaning the weapon and it accidentally discharged, and he was hauled away, and i think he was charged with carrying a concealed weapon or something of this nature; i'm not sure. they brought him up for court-martial. whether he was actually court-martialed then, i don't know. mr. jenner. this was a privately owned weapon? mr. powers. i think so. all the less, it wasn't--i don't think it was a government issue; i think it was a small caliber. i think it was a . . mr. jenner. yes; . pistol. mr. powers. yes. mr. jenner. what was the scuttlebutt about that particular incident, if any? mr. powers. nothing. it--just the name again stuck to--"ozzie screwed up again," or something. that was probably the general statement. i think this was the feeling of the group at that time. mr. jenner. now, you used an expression "screwed up again." i'm going to ask you now what was the reputation of oswald and the attitude of the squadron with respect to him---- mr. powers. well, going back to---- mr. jenner. during this period of time? mr. powers. i think this idea of him being a somewhat weaker individual held--well, he was in the squadron here--physically he was not an overpowering individual, and "ozzie," i think, stuck with him most of the time through the time he was in the marines or at least the period that i was associated with him, and he did what he was told and never went out of the way to do any more, or just doing the least minimum that he could do as far as any type of work or anything like that, and he would screw up once in a while; and now in the terms of the marine corps, it would mean that he wouldn't always present himself in a first-class manner as far as dress or shave or sloppy in appearance sometimes. mr. jenner. and how was he getting along with his fellow marines during this period? mr. powers. i think they accepted him just as they did everyone else, because again you have a mixture of personalities, and i don't recall that he was friendly with any one particular person more than the other. again i'm not sure because he was in this particular crew---- mr. jenner. was there any scuttlebutt or rumor that he shot himself to get out of the service? mr. powers. i don't know. there might have been. now, that you recall--you say that, you recall it to my mind; i'm not sure whether i want to recall it or something that is actually fact. mr. jenner. yes. mr. powers. i couldn't say truthfully. mr. jenner. but any matter, it was pure scuttlebutt; it was pure speculation? mr. powers. yes, because nobody actually knew what was going on. mr. jenner. what was the scuttlebutt as to his court-martial; was that because he had the unregistered or private weapon? mr. powers. now that you say that, this court-martial, this is maybe where they came in and they were going to try to give him a court-martial for shooting himself to get out. again, maybe this is something again that i want to recall or if it's actually true; now that you mentioned it, there is something of that nature. mr. jenner. when you use the expression "something that you want to recall," what you mean by that, i take it, is you want to avoid the tendency to recall something that---- mr. powers. i have heard somewhere else. mr. jenner. more than a speculation or hearsay, and you're telling me that you're trying to confine yourself to actual fact? mr. powers. yes. mr. jenner. and you're making that distinction for that reason? mr. powers. yes. mr. jenner. was there any rumor or scuttlebutt that he at one time had been given some psychiatric attention? mr. powers. now that you mentioned it, he might have been put in the--he might have been sent to the psychiatric ward in yokohama; i'm not--again now that you mentioned it, again it comes in my mind. mr. jenner. do you have any--is this in the area of guessing? mr. powers. it's scuttlebutt-type of thing. it's guessing and no way to substantiate it or anything of this nature. mr. jenner. okay. what did oswald do for entertainment on leaves? mr. powers. this seems to me now that he made a statement, and this was after he went out and procured or secured a female companionship and set up housekeeping or whatever you want to call it in japan, and this was common practice--and it seems to me at one time he made a statement that he didn't care if he returned to the united states at all. now, i'm almost--well, i can't say for sure, but i attribute this statement to him again. mr. jenner. did he set up housekeeping, set up some japanese girl; is that what you mean? mr. powers. yes. this is--this was the normal procedure over there, the practice with a lot of individuals, and i think that he was one of the ones that did--went for this type of thing. i'm not sure whether he did, but i can attribute this statement to him that he did. mr. jenner. in other words, you have a recollection of him having said that somewhere? mr. powers. yes; he said that, and again looking back, he was finally attaining a male status or image in his own eyes, and this is why he wanted to stay in that particular country. mr. jenner. but he did say something to the effect that he'd just as soon stay in japan? mr. powers. yes. mr. jenner. rather than return to the united states? mr. powers. yes. mr. jenner. were you given liberty when you were at atsugi the way you were given liberty at biloxi, that is, at certain hours of the day or on weekends, you would have liberty? mr. powers. gee, you have to secure liberty cards to get off the base at atsugi, and by doing this, some weekends you had a duty weekend, and--but you have to be all squared away as far as your duty weekend, and have no disciplinary action or anything of this nature against you before you got your liberty card, and then you checked out to the sergeant on duty and went on liberty. mr. jenner. and how often were you permitted this liberty? mr. powers. as i recall, you could get it on every day. mr. jenner. and what about weekends? mr. powers. and, say, weekends, and possibly once a month you had duty weekend, so weekends out of the month. mr. jenner. so you would have out of the ? mr. powers. yes. mr. jenner. per month? mr. powers. possibly every fifth one we stood, but i think it was . mr. jenner. in other words, three out of four you had liberty, and of the weekends, the fourth one you stood on duty at camp? mr. powers. yes. mr. jenner. did oswald tend to take all the liberty that he could get? mr. powers. i couldn't truthfully say. mr. jenner. all right. what was that operation called in the philippines, operation strong back? mr. powers. i believe the second one was strong back, yes. mr. jenner. when you say "second one," what do you mean by that? mr. powers. the first one they went down to--when i stayed down to play football; i don't remember what that was. mr. jenner. but the one that you attended was operation strong back? mr. powers. i think so; yes, sir. mr. jenner. were you boys ever sent to formosa? mr. powers. yes, we--this was on our way home. now, this wasn't--he was still in japan, as i remember; he must have--yes, he was still in japan, and on our way home, we went to formosa and no one got off the ship; we just picked up some civilians, i believe, there. mr. jenner. but oswald was not there with you? mr. powers. no. and then we just went on across---- mr. jenner. while you continued to have acquaintance and contact with oswald, did his rank change from private to private first class? mr. powers. i don't recall. mr. jenner. do you recall oswald having received discipline as a result of the court-martial involving the discharge of the . caliber pistol? mr. powers. i think this came after, if it did come, it probably came after i left japan. mr. jenner. i see. mr. powers. i arrived home on the th of july, so i must have been en route most of june. mr. jenner. but you don't recall any punishment that was meted out to him? mr. powers. i don't know; no, sir. mr. jenner. off the record. (whereupon, discussion was had off the record.) mr. jenner. back on the record. now, in connection with your remarks that he stated to you that he'd just as soon stay in japan, do you recall, was there any scuttlebutt in the squadron that he applied for an extension of his stay in japan? mr. powers. i don't know. i can't say that i recall anything because a lot of people did make this kind of statement, and you never again attached any significance to it. some individuals did extend--rather ask for an extension. whether he did or not, i don't know. mr. jenner. what about oswald's drinking habits or propensities? mr. powers. i think that he probably maybe experienced inebriation maybe possibly for his first time while he was in japan, extensively at least; and other than that, i don't know. and a lot of the guys just went out, and that's all they went out for, to get drunk, and that was it. i don't know. mr. jenner. but you have no impression of oswald in that particular connection? mr. powers. no; nothing. my actual association with him in japan was limited to other than just seeing him in the barracks and saying, "hi, ozzie." mr. jenner. did he have any interest in the russian language? mr. powers. somewhere along the line he was reading a russian book or something. i'm not sure, again, whether it was written in russian or whether it was written in the american language. it pertained to the russian philosophy, but there is something in my mind that i relate--associate, reading this type of literature. i think it was in japan, but i'm not sure, though. mr. jenner. do you have any impression of him studying the russian language as such? mr. powers. in actually sitting down and studying it; no. mr. jenner. in seeking to become familiar with the language? mr. powers. i would say no; no, that i do not because i just don't have any real concrete recollections for the individual other than just brief glimpses. mr. jenner. were you still acquainted with him, still stationed with him when there arose an incident where he had an altercation with a noncommissioned officer? mr. powers. i'm not sure. it seems to me i was, but again i'm not sure. it either came--i truthfully can't say, but there is something again, maybe something that i read since then, or since when all of this came out, something that i read, but there is something in my mind that he had a fight with a noncommissioned officer or something of this nature. mr. jenner. that wasn't extraordinary; that would occur once in a while? mr. powers. yes. all of a sudden a guy blows up and swings at somebody, and right away it's a fight. and if it could be blown out of proportion, too, if the noncommissioned officer wanted to take it, any time take a swing or strike a blow, it was supposed to be a serious offense in the marines; well, is it or not, i don't know. mr. jenner. by this time, were you a sergeant? mr. powers. i believe i made sergeant right before i came home, or--i think it was a week or two right before i came home. i was a sergeant before i left to come home, i believe. mr. jenner. still at this time oswald continued to have the reputation that he was not an aggressive person? mr. powers. no; i don't think--i think he came out of his shell, to coin a phrase; he was becoming older and more mature, and he stood a little more for his personal rights; at least, this is an opinion that you get from the incident that he did have there in the barracks, not from close relationships with him. mr. jenner. did you have a recollection that in japan he began to stand up for his own rights? mr. powers. yes. mr. jenner. he was a little more aggressive than he was back in the states? mr. powers. yes. again this might go back to the area that he was too scared the first year or so or months while he was in the marine corps, after coming out of the initial indoctrination of coming out of training, and then he becomes himself, so you can't make a subjective appraisal during that first months. mr. jenner. did he ever express any sympathy toward the communist party? mr. powers. none that i recall. mr. jenner. toward communist principles? mr. powers. none that i recall. mr. jenner. or marxist doctrines? mr. powers. none that i recall; no, sir. mr. jenner. or did he ever discuss those subjects with you or in your presence? mr. powers. i'm not sure. he didn't discuss them to any great length or to any issues that i would recall. mr. jenner. nothing to excite you? mr. powers. nothing that i would attach any political significance to. mr. jenner. and what was his attitude toward discipline in the marine corps? was it antagonistic? was it different in any degree from other marines? mr. powers. no; i don't think that it was. i think he was like any other marine, that he made his bed and now he was going to have to lie in it. he volunteered. a lot of complaining just as anyone else did. but nothing that you could say that was any different than any other individual. however, he, again going back to the incident that he did have, he was somewhat, if you want to call it, hostile, so to speak, to authority. he must have been--or he had something that would bother him that he would flare up once in a while. mr. jenner. he would? mr. powers. well---- mr. jenner. excuse me. can you give me any incident---- mr. powers. well, just going back---- mr. jenner. that would express that opinion? mr. powers. well, in japan or something, possibly in the barracks, i recall, or like in biloxi, he had some scuffles. i said he was coming out of his shell, and showing more aggressiveness, but i wouldn't say that this guy is a trouble maker. i would say that the opinion of him would be that you couldn't depend on him in a situation, that you could give him the responsibility, but then you couldn't really say that he would accept it, but you could be sure with other individuals; you knew that they would accept it, but i don't think that he did this only because he wasn't sure of himself. i think if you did give him authority and he realized what the position of authority was that he would accept it and he would probably pride himself in it. mr. jenner. but at least during this period of time, he hadn't reached the stage of dependability that you men of higher rank would rely on? mr. powers. well, i wasn't in a position to delegate authority to him, but again, as i say, this is a personal opinion. mr. jenner. did--in any conversation that you had with him, or any conversations in your presence which he wasn't present in, was there anything mentioned about his being in chicago? mr. powers. no. mr. jenner. or milwaukee? mr. powers. i cannot say; i don't recall. mr. jenner. or did he ever mention somebody by the name of ruby, jack ruby or rubenstein, jack rubenstein? mr. powers. no, sir; not to the best of my knowledge. i never heard that name associated with him. mr. jenner. even when he was in japan, did he tend to stay to himself by and large? mr. powers. i would say yes. i think that he did. again i couldn't be sure because he was in a different crew, and they would be on liberty at a different time. mr. jenner. do you ever recall him being intoxicated? mr. powers. not distinctly; no. it seems to me that here again it's just a picture in my mind, that he would come in the barracks feeling good, and acting silly; so whether you would associate intoxication with it---- mr. jenner. did he ever get into any fights while you were over in japan? mr. powers. oh, he probably did; probably no more than any other individual in close relationship with the people that you are there with. mr. jenner. did he ever talk about gen. robert e. lee or any possible relationship that he may have had in the distant past or association by name or---- mr. powers. it seems to me that there was--he was quite proud of lee harvey oswald. there was some relationship there in the civil war type of thing. i'm not sure what it was. mr. jenner. during your period of association with him and knowledge of him, did he have a reputation of being an odd-ball of any kind? mr. powers. well, i think the term is loosely taken. mr. jenner. yes. mr. powers. odd-ball, which is attributed to his characteristics that he did have. mr. jenner. there might have been a lot of odd-balls in the marines. mr. powers. there are a lot of odd-balls in the marines; let's say there are a lot of odd-balls everywhere. mr. jenner. but nothing occurred that would lead you to describe him as an odd-ball? mr. powers. well, he was different. you could use it--what an odd-ball means to you and what an odd-ball means to myself and to everyone, it's different. mr. jenner. well, i'm trying to go along with you; he was different. mr. powers. he was a different individual, i would say, than the normal personality that you would see in the marine corps because he was--which i previously stated, i think--he was a quiet--if you want to call it--a reserved individual that had feminine characteristics, that to me, he was shy, so to speak, and a lot of times you felt sorry because the rest of the guys were most of the time picking on him; this goes back to the ozzie rabbit incident. and he was somewhat the frail, little puppy in the litter. at least, this was the opinion i think they got from him, and maybe he fell right into this image all along through the marine corps; maybe it just followed him. and maybe--physically, like i say, he was not an impressive specimen, at that time he wasn't, that the marine corps tries to portray is one of the big-type individualists, and he didn't fall into that, and consequently he was an oddball from the marine corps' own definition of what a marine is supposed to--ideally supposed to be. mr. jenner. was he argumentatively inclined? mr. powers. somewhat. i wouldn't say he was--he just took the opposite side of the argument, but i think that he was possibly more intelligent than most of the individuals that were in the marine corps--well, i wouldn't say possibly; i would say he appeared to be more intelligent than most of them. mr. jenner. are you drawing the distinction between when you say "intelligence," education and the development of intelligence? mr. powers. let's say his capacity, and he appeared to be better developed, even not knowing what his educational background was at the time. at least, his diction and his knowledge of different subjects appeared to be more advanced than some of the other people in the group or in the groups that he was in. mr. jenner. do you think there might have been any resentment on that account? mr. powers. there may have been, i suppose, the frail--maybe he portrayed that image--frail, know-it-all, studious type of person. and, of course, some of the individuals--this is maybe why they were in the marine corps, to get away from the type of individual or scholastic problems or school. mr. jenner. do you have any impression as to what kind of a marksman he was? mr. powers. i don't know; he was not in my platoon. at least, i don't think he was. i don't have any conscious recollection of him there, but all marines train to shoot the rifle proficiently, and the pistol and the browning automatic rifle. mr. jenner. was there any scuttlebutt that he was an officer hater? mr. powers. no. mr. jenner. did he evidence, as far as you recall, any impatience with people who appeared not to have the command of any particular subject that he had? mr. powers. i don't know; maybe not more so than anything else. he had the patience to teach me chess, but then again, you would sit there and pondering a move or something, and he, as i recall now, he would say "come on; let's get going." and he seemed to be an individual that was--wanted to keep things moving at quite a rapid pace. mr. jenner. did you have any impression that he had a tendency--maybe i asked you this--to keep by himself? mr. powers. for himself to keep by himself? mr. jenner. to keep by himself. mr. powers. i don't know. i don't think i can truthfully answer that because---- mr. jenner. you don't think you had enough contact with him in japan because he was not a member of your platoon? mr. powers. that's correct. mr. jenner. in an fbi interview, did you express the opinion that he was resentful of authority? do you still hold that view? mr. powers. he probably was not resentful to authority; he was resentful of the position of authority that he could not command, not of the authority itself, i believe. mr. jenner. i see. mr. powers. it didn't make a difference who was administering--rather what the authority was, it was probably the individual administering it probably. mr. jenner. do you remember a marine by the name of delgado? mr. powers. i can't say that i do; no, sir. mr. jenner. thornley? mr. powers. no, sir. mr. jenner. you mentioned murphy. mr. powers. yes, sir. mr. jenner. what was murphy's first name, do you recall? mr. powers. jim murphy. i don't think that was it either; i'm not sure. mr. jenner. a marine by the name of---- mr. powers. we used to call him murph. mr. jenner. murray? mr. powers. no. mr. jenner. osborne? mr. powers. no, sir. mr. jenner. shoemaker? mr. powers. no, sir. mr. jenner. call? mr. powers. no, sir. mr. jenner. botelho? mr. powers. no, sir. mr. jenner. that may have been pronounced botelho. did he spend any time listening to records, classical music, and that sort of thing? mr. powers. not that i recall; no, sir. mr. jenner. did you ever have any discussions with him or were there any discussions in your presence at the same time that he was present about religion? mr. powers. i don't recall. mr. jenner. botelho's full name was james anthony botelho; call's full name was richard dennis call. you mentioned camarata, donald p. camarata? mr. powers. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and do you remember a marine by the name of peter cassisi? mr. powers. no, sir; i don't. if i saw the face, i could probably recall. mr. jenner. a fellow by the name of peter francis connor? mr. powers. yes; i recall that name. mr. jenner. do you remember a commanding officer at santa ana by the name of john e. donovan? mr. powers. no, sir. mr. jenner. do you remember a marine by the name of john heindel? mr. powers. no, sir. mr. jenner. sometimes called hidell? this is atsugi now. mr. powers. no. mr. jenner. a marine by the name of erwin donald lewis? mr. powers. no, sir. mr. jenner. i think i asked about murray, david christie murray. murphy's name was paul, paul edward murphy. mr. powers. yes, yes. mr. jenner. you remember him in the far east? mr. powers. yes, he was in the same crew that i was in. mr. jenner. osborne's first name was mac, m-a-c. well, that completes my examination. and any further reflections which i will ask you to do as you sit there now, can you think of anything that you think might be pertinent here to the commission in its overall investigation, calling on your experiences during the period that you had contact with oswald? mr. powers. no; i don't think there is really anything that i can add. i think that the problem is that there are hundreds of kids running around like him today that can be easily influenced. mr. jenner. all right. now, in the taking of these depositions, and you find in most regulations and rules that we adopted, you have the right to read your deposition over and make any corrections in it if you wish, and to sign it. you may waive that, if you wish also. mr. powers. i waive it; there is no reason why---- mr. jenner. as far as you're concerned---- mr. powers. as far as i'm concerned. mr. jenner. you rely on the accuracy of the reporter? mr. powers. yes, sir. mr. jenner. thank you. testimony of john e. donovan the testimony of john e. donovan was taken at : a.m., on may , , at maryland avenue ne., washington, d.c., by mr. john hart ely, member of the staff of the president's commission. richard m. mosk, also a member of the staff, was present. mr. ely. would you stand, please? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. donovan. i do. mr. ely. please be seated. my name is john ely. the gentleman directly to my right is richard mosk. we are both members of the staff of the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy, which was appointed by president johnson to investigate all the facts and circumstances surrounding the death of president kennedy. the rules of the commission require that i give to you a copy of the executive order no. , which is the president's order creating this commission, a copy of the joint resolution of congress, and a copy of the commission's rules which relate to the questioning of witnesses. is it correct to say that i have given you a copy of each of these documents? mr. donovan. you gave them to me, and i gave them a cursory reading. mr. ely. would you state your full name, please? mr. donovan. john e. donovan. mr. ely. and where do you live? mr. donovan. belmont road, nw., washington, d.c. mr. ely. what is your occupation? mr. donovan. i teach school at ascension academy, alexandria, va. mr. ely. and prior to teaching at ascension academy, what did you do? mr. donovan. i attended medical school last year at georgetown university. mr. ely. you did not, however, get a medical degree? mr. donovan. that is correct. mr. ely. previous to attending medical school, what did you do? mr. donovan. i attended the university of dayton; dayton, ohio. mr. ely. this is after you got out of the marine corps? mr. donovan. yes. eight months prior to that, i worked for a bank in boston, mass. prior to that, i was employed by the u.s. marine corps. mr. ely. for how long? mr. donovan. three years and months, i think. mr. ely. and what was the rank at which you were discharged? mr. donovan. first lieutenant. mr. ely. you had had higher education before you entered the marine corps? mr. donovan. prior to the marine corps i completed georgetown university school of foreign service in . mr. ely. and you received a bachelor of arts degree? mr. donovan. a bachelor of science, foreign service. mr. ely. as you undoubtedly know, mr. donovan, we have called you here because we think that you might be able to tell us something about the background of lee harvey oswald, whom i believe you knew when you were both members of the marine corps. why don't you, in your own words, outline your contact with oswald, and i will interrupt with questions. mr. donovan. in the spring of , i returned from a tour in japan. i was assigned to marine air control squadron in santa ana, calif. mr. ely. excuse me. there is something in these service records that confuses me. is the installation at santa ana separate from the one at el toro? mr. donovan. it comes under the command of el toro, but it is, i believe, miles removed. el toro is a jet type base. santa ana is still known by the title of "lta" which stands for lighter than air, which stems from the fact that in world war ii it was a blimp base. it is now a helicopter base and a radar base. in that spring, i was the assistant operations officer and the training officer at marine air control squadron , and it is there that i came into contact with oswald. mr. ely. what was your rank at this time? mr. donovan. first lieutenant. our function at that base was to surveil for aircraft, but basically to train both enlisted and officers for later assignment overseas. some of my fellow officers there had served with oswald in japan, and as all ranks, from generals to privates probably do, they discussed their contemporaries and how to get along with them. i was informed that oswald was very competent, but a little bit nuts on foreign affairs. mr. ely. who told you this? mr. donovan. bill trail--william kenneth trail is his name--had served with him in japan, and was around when oswald underwent some court-martial proceedings, but i don't recall what they were. i don't know if my memory has been refreshed by the newspaper or if i actually knew then. i don't believe i recall. at any rate, oswald served on my crew there, served on a lot of crews, but basically mine. mr. ely. let me interrupt a moment to define a little more closely the relationship between you and oswald. would it be a fair characterization to say that you were his commanding officer? mr. donovan. no; that is not correct. the commanding officer was a lieutenant colonel. oswald served on a crew, a radar crew, and on that crew i was the officer in command. mr. ely. i understand. how many men were on the crew? mr. donovan. i believe that there were always about three officers and about seven enlisted men. it varied from time to time. we were supposed to have enlisted men, but we were seldom up to strength. mr. ely. so oswald would have been one of the six or seven enlisted men with whom you were in closest contact? mr. donovan. correct. i served with him on a -hour watch once a day, usually five days a week--sometimes that was the morning watch, sometimes the afternoon, and sometimes it was a rather extensive night watch. during night watch, you had to stay up until all aircraft were in. often this was quite boring. and this is when i had the most occasion to talk to him. mr. ely. it amazed me how much you remembered about oswald in view of the fact that you were an officer and he was an enlisted man. do you think your memory of him is atypical, or would you remember all the enlisted men in that crew approximately the same? mr. donovan. i would remember, i believe, all of them equally well. most of them i had served with in japan. mr. ely. you had not known oswald in japan? mr. donovan. if i knew him in japan, i don't remember. they played football on a team that i coached overseas, which to a degree gives you a common bond. number two, these are not typical marine enlisted. they have a much higher than average iq. and they speak well on a given subject they are interested in--usually women and sports. but it was quite normal in working with them to talk with them about all subjects. you were constantly in communication with the center concerning aircraft, if something was going on you talked to them on the intercommunication system. and it was quite ordinary to talk to them, standing at the back of the radar room in off hours. i think i can remember all the men on that crew pretty well. mr. ely. all right. i derailed you there for a moment. you had mentioned what lieutenant trail had told you. and i don't think there is any point in going into that any further. well, let me chase down one thing you mentioned. you said that you thought the enlisted men on this crew were above average in terms of ability for marine corps enlisted men. would you say that oswald specifically was more intelligent than the average enlisted man, or would you just infer this from the fact that he was chosen for this job? mr. donovan. both. i think he had a given iq or gct, general classification test score, that would place him in a position of being there. i also found him competent in any job i saw him try in the center. sometimes he surveiled for unidentified aircraft. sometimes he surveiled for aircraft in distress. sometimes he made plots on the board. sometimes he relayed information to other radar sites in the air force or navy. and sometimes he swept the floor when we were cleaning up getting ready to go home. i found him competent in all functions. sometimes he was a little moody. but i never heard him wise off to a sergeant or any officer. and in working with most people, as long as they do their job, if they are moody, that is their business. he was always neat. he was neat. sometimes his lack of enthusiasm got people in dutch, which the other members of the crew did not always appreciate. mr. ely. when you say he was neat, was your only contact with him in regard to this crew? in other words, it was not your job to inspect his quarters or his rifle or his uniform? mr. donovan. his quarters were not exceptionally neat, and i did have occasion to inspect them. but he always cleaned up sufficiently so that he passed inspection. i don't think he was that way by nature. but i think he had figured out that the marine corps demanded this of him. and he at least complied in that respect. mr. ely. do you remember an occasion on which he was transferred out of a quonset hut because of a refusal to clean up? mr. donovan. i recall that there was some difficulty. two or three inspections had gone badly. and that the other members of his quonset hut said he was at fault. it is difficult for a sergeant ever to say who is at fault. but after the complaints came in long enough, i believe he was transferred to another hut. mr. ely. but your general impression is that he was not especially---- mr. donovan. sloppy--no; he was not sloppy. mr. ely. i wonder, mr. donovan, if you could return to your description of the way oswald performed his job, perhaps with particular reference to how he reacted to stress situations. mr. donovan. yes. i have been on watch with him when an emergency arose, and in turning around and reporting it to the crew chief and to myself--and to me, simultaneously, he would tell you what the status of the emergency was, if anyone could tell, and what he thought the obvious action we should take. and he was right. there was usually an obvious solution. then he waited for you to tell him what to do, and he did it, no matter what you told him. mr. ely. did he remain calm at all times; or was he excitable with regard to his job? mr. donovan. i don't recall him being particularly excitable. mr. ely. would you characterize him as "very cool," or do you think that might be overstating the case in the other direction? mr. donovan. i just think in that respect he was normal. mr. ely. did you have occasion to observe the relation between oswald and his fellow enlisted men? mr. donovan. at times; yes. mr. ely. did it seem that he was normal to you with regard to mixing with his peers? mr. donovan. no; he did not share a common interest with them. for better or for worse, the average young american male in that age is interested in saving enough money to go buy another beer and get another date. this i don't believe would characterize him at all. he read a great deal. mr. ely. excuse me. do you remember anything that he read specifically? mr. donovan. no; i know that the men always told me that he subscribed to a russian newspaper. mr. ely. when you say russian newspaper, do you recall whether that was one printed in the russian language? mr. donovan. no; i do not. mr. ely. you never saw that newspaper? mr. donovan. i never saw the newspaper. mr. ely. did you ever question oswald about his reading of it? mr. donovan. yes; i did. and he did not apparently take this stuff as gospel--although---- mr. ely. when you say that, are you implying that it not only was a russian newspaper, but it was also a communist newspaper? mr. donovan. yes; i implied that. and i felt that he thought this presented a very different and perhaps equally just side of the international affairs in comparison with the united states newspapers. mr. ely. was the paper printed in russia, do you know? mr. donovan. i do not know. mr. ely. and, of course, you don't know the name of the paper? mr. donovan. that is correct. mr. ely. did he tell you at that time why he subscribed to the paper? mr. donovan. yes; he said he was interested in learning russian. and he took great pride in the fact that he could speak it. he couldn't prove it by me, because i don't speak russian. but he said he could, and his contemporaries believed he could. as far as i know, he could. mr. ely. but you also got the idea that he enjoyed this paper for its ideological content? mr. donovan. to a degree. i think he enjoyed international affairs in all respects. he enjoyed studying them. he thought there were many great--there were many grave injustices concerning the affairs in the international situation. i know that he constantly brought up the idea that our government must be run by many incompetent people. and, as i stated, and you have probably read in your reports or the newspapers, that he was very well versed, at least on the superficial facts of a given foreign situation. his bond with me was that i was a recent graduate of the foreign service school, at least fairly well acquainted with situations throughout the world. and he would take great pride in his ability to mention not only the leader of a country, but five or six subordinates in that country who held positions of prominence. he took great pride in talking to a passing officer coming in or out of the radar center, and in a most interested manner, ask him what he thought of a given situation, listen to that officer's explanation, and say, "thank you very much." as soon as we were alone again, he would say, "do you agree with that?" in many cases it was obvious that the officer had no more idea about that than he did about the polo races--or polo matches in australia. and oswald would then say, "now, if men like that are leading us, there is something wrong--when i obviously have more intelligence and more knowledge than that man." and i think his grave misunderstanding that i tried to help him with is that these men were marine officers and supposed to be schooled in the field of warfare as the marine corps knows it, and not as international political analysts. and in some respects he was probably better informed than most people in the marine corps, namely, on international affairs. mr. ely. do you remember any specific international events or situations which he questioned officers about? mr. donovan. no; not particularly. i know that cuba interested him more than most other situations. he was fairly well informed about mr. batista. he referred to atrocities in general, not in particular. i think that we all know that there were injustices committed under the batista administration. and he was against that. and he was against this sort of dictatorship. but i never heard him in any way, shape or form confess that he was a communist, or that he ever thought about being a communist. mr. ely. did you hear him express sympathy for castro specifically? mr. donovan. yes--but, on the other hand, so did time magazine at that time. harvard accepted him de facto, at face value--which is one of our better schools, i suppose. at any rate, what he said about castro was not an unpopular belief at that time. mr. ely. what did he say? mr. donovan. i don't recall any particulars, except that it was a godsend that somebody had overthrown batista. mr. ely. did he ever express to you any desire that he personally would take part in clearing up injustices, either in cuba or anywhere else? mr. donovan. he not only never said it to me, i never heard of him saying it to anyone else. mr. ely. based on your observation of men throughout your military career, would you say that oswald constituted a typical case of someone whose interests were different from the rest of the enlisted men? do you think that his loneliness, his desire to be alone, exceeded that, or would you say it was a more or less normal thing for somebody interested in other things? mr. donovan. most young men in the marine corps, i suppose in all services, have the common bond that they want to get out. he certainly shared that common bond with them. i think that was his only common bond. i don't believe he shared an equal interest in sports. i don't think he shared an equal intense interest in girls. and although i believe he drank, sometimes to excess, i don't believe that he shared even that companionship with them consistently. mr. ely. you mentioned that the sort of unit with which you were associated was one that drew enlisted men of a higher intellectual caliber. for this reason, were there men in the unit who shared oswald's interests, or even given this he was still the only one interested in serious reading? mr. donovan. not that i know of. but as i have told both the fbi and the secret service, he had living in his barracks a boy whose name i am sorry i cannot remember, whose nickname was beezer---- mr. ely. would the man's name be roussel? mr. donovan. that is it. he was from louisiana, i believe. and this boy fixed me up with his sister who was an airline stewardess. i took her out on one occasion, i believe that this boy was at least interested enough in oswald that he fixed oswald up with her once. and she related to me that he could speak russian, which i had heard before. and she referred to him as kind of an oddball. you probably have her name and can talk to her. mr. ely. was her name rosaleen quinn? would that ring a bell? you don't remember? mr. donovan. no, i am sorry, it doesn't ring a bell. mr. ely. but you feel that if we could locate this woman, she could tell us something that would be of interest in reconstructing his personality? mr. donovan. she went out with him once, maybe twice. maybe more than that, i don't know about. i don't know if she could or not. mr. ely. do you remember any fields other than foreign affairs which oswald did extensive reading in? mr. donovan. no, i do not. mr. ely. have you ever stated that oswald prided himself on knowing the names of the great philosophers, or would this statement, if attributed to you, have been a mistake? mr. donovan. no, that is a correct statement. he knew the names of some philosophers. mr. ely. is it your feeling that he read philosophy? mr. donovan. manuscripts are available to all of us which mention these gentlemen's names in support of some idea. quite often, if you read the philosopher you see that it is taken out of context. i only had years of philosophy and years of theology at georgetown. but even with that limited amount, it was obvious that he often knew the name, and that was it. mr. ely. do you remember any of the philosophers that he did mention? mr. donovan. hegel, which would be appropriate concerning his later action. mr. ely. hegel. did he mention marx? mr. donovan. no, i don't recall him--oh, he must have mentioned marx, but i don't ever recall him using marxist philosophy to support anything in particular. mr. ely. is it your general impression that the philosophers who interested him were ones that were somehow tied in with political philosophy? mr. donovan. social revolutions. mr. ely. do you know whether oswald had any knowledge of languages other than russian and english? mr. donovan. no, i do not. i recall that we had occasion to speak spanish on the radio, because ham operators from mexico were forever cutting in. he may have known a few words. but he did not--i don't believe he had a command of spanish. mr. ely. you have no recollection of his speaking or understanding german at all? mr. donovan. i have no recollection. mr. ely. did he ever speak to you about his plans for after he got out of the marine corps? mr. donovan. no, i cannot say that he did. mr. ely. did he ever express to you an interest in attending school anywhere? mr. donovan. yes, now that you mention it; i think he did mention that he intended to pursue school. and, in fact, it was standard for all officers to encourage any enlisted man to attend school. he certainly had the ability, if he had wanted to do it. there was another boy named sergeant park, from washington, who, i believe, lived in his same quonset hut, who definitely intended to attend school. i have given this gentleman's name to both the fbi and the secret service. mr. ely. did oswald ever mention to you that he would like to attend school in any foreign country? mr. donovan. never. it came as a complete surprise to me that he had turned up in moscow. mr. ely. in fact, he never mentioned thoughts of traveling at all anywhere outside the country. mr. donovan. he never mentioned it to me. mr. ely. did you ever hear of his mentioning it to anybody else? mr. donovan. i never heard of it being mentioned to anyone. evidently that was a rather well kept secret, that he intended to depart so suddenly. mr. ely. you mentioned that oswald spoke of injustices which took place during the batista regime. do you remember his referring to any other country specifically with regard to injustices? mr. donovan. no, i don't, except for asia in general. i think in talking with the fbi and the secret service i mentioned guatemala or something, and i tried to tell them that was only an example, that i never heard him specifically refer to guatemala, or venezuela, or wherever i was talking with them about. but he had served in the orient, and he had seen poverty in the extreme, as anyone who goes to the orient does, and he had mentioned that that was unjust. mr. ely. did you notice any specific interest in latin america? mr. donovan. yes. i would say that he was particularly interested in latin america. he, for instance, was relatively familiar with the betancourt family, which is a prominent north, south american and central american family, and their regime as a family. mr. ely. did he ever mention the dominican republic by name? mr. donovan. if he did, i don't recall it. mr. ely. did he ever have any specific suggestions as to what should be done about problems in asia or latin america? mr. donovan. no. his only solution that i could see was that authority, particularly the marine corps, ought to be able to recognize talent such as his own, without a given magic college degree, and put them in positions of prominence. his talent was obviously unrecognized by the marine corps for commission or staff nco ability, if it existed. mr. ely. this is his opinion? mr. donovan. this is his opinion. mr. ely. you mentioned that oswald did not, in your view, have an inordinate interest in competitive sports. do you remember any excursions into the field of competitive sports? mr. donovan. yes; he went out for the squadron football team, and i believe he played end. as i stated before, he often tried to make calls in the huddle--for better or for worse, again, i should say, a quarterback is in charge of the team and should make the calls. a quarterback did. and i don't know if he quit or i kicked him off. but, at any rate, he stopped playing. mr. ely. let me make a comment with regard to something you said. undoubtedly there are many things you covered with the fbi and the secret service. we now have to bring them out under oath, so we can introduce them into the record of the commission. so we know we are being repetitive. we will just ask you to bear with us on this. were you the captain of this team? mr. donovan. no; i was the coach of the team. the captain was a gentleman named tibbet czik, and captain czik is still on active duty in the marine corps. last summer he was stationed at new river, n.c. and captain czik would not remember this fellow very well, because at that time he was recently reinstated in the marine corps after having been out for a few years. he knew at that time very little about radar and was in a more or less student status. i don't believe he would remember him. mr. ely. was czik the quarterback? mr. donovan. czik was the quarterback. czik was the quarterback all through college of some college in new jersey, and had a lot of talent. mr. ely. was oswald a proficient football player? mr. donovan. no; he had his share of ability. but he was too light. i think the boy only weighed about , pounds, as i remember. he had a slender build. mr. ely. would you say, however, that he was normal in terms of speed and agility? mr. donovan. oh, yes; he was fast enough. mr. ely. so would you characterize him as athletic, but too light to be a really good football player? mr. donovan. i don't think that he would ever make first string high school in a good high school. mr. ely. on any kind of team, or are you just speaking about football? mr. donovan. football. i never saw him play basketball that i recall, although he might have been talented in that field. he was coordinated to a normal degree. mr. ely. did you notice any special lack of team spirit on his part? mr. donovan. yes; like the other experiences i had with him, he thought he should be boss, and when he was not immediately accepted as such, there was discontent on his part, which, of course, is lack of team spirit. mr. ely. you mentioned earlier that you at times inspected oswald's quarters. did you have occasion to inspect his rifle? mr. donovan. yes; i did. and i don't recall anything out of order. mr. ely. are you saying that you don't recall the results of this inspection, or that you do recall the results of the inspection and that you don't remember that his rifle was extraordinarily sloppy? mr. donovan. i don't recall that his rifle was extraordinarily sloppy. i do recall, after having talked with you about it, the barracks incident, in which there was some discontent on the part of his contemporaries that the hut was being punished for his lack of order. mr. ely. but your impression is that he kept his rifle as neat as anybody else? mr. donovan. i don't recall to the contrary. mr. ely. would you have any reason to have an impression as to oswald's proficiency in firing the rifle? mr. donovan. no; i would not. i saw his record book, and i believe at that time he was qualified as a sharpshooter--or maybe a marksman. if he had not been qualified as a marksman, which is the minimum standard, i am sure i would have been aware of it, because i was training officer, and that is one of the things that you must try to train men in. mr. ely. but you never had occasion to be with him when he fired a rifle? mr. donovan. that is correct. mr. ely. the marksmanship scores which are recorded in the marine corps--are they reliable, or is there an opportunity to falsify a score? mr. donovan. i would say that in a vast majority of the cases they are reliable. some people have what is called an m- pencil--namely, you can punch holes in the target the size of an m- shell to improve the score. this is a court-martial offense. i am sure it does happen. i don't personally know of it ever having happened, but it might. if he had a score of , which would make him sharpshooter, i would assume that from the standing position he could hit a -inch bullseye times out of . mr. ely. do you know how the score was recorded? did the firer of the weapon ever go down personally to inspect the target? mr. donovan. never. that is one of the things that makes this quite difficult. the men are on a firing range, a minimum of yards distance, a maximum of yards distance. when you are put into what is called the butts, or the target area, you do not know whose target you are pulling, because they switch you around every day. a staff nco or an officer comes around and verifies each given shot. and it is not impossible to cheat, but it would be most difficult to. and i have no reason to suspect that he did. mr. ely. in order that a friend could cheat for you, he would have to know ahead of time which point you were firing on, get to that point, and punch the target before the nco got there? mr. donovan. that is correct. you fired from a given position every day. for instance, if you fired on target during the week or two of qualification, you always fired on target . however, in the target area, where you pulled the targets up and down to repair them, you were switched from spot to spot every day, and it was not a matter of choice. the sergeant just said, "you men take target ", "target ," and so on. so it would be most unusual. but i suppose it does happen. mr. ely. earlier in your deposition you stated, i believe, that you never heard oswald wise off to any nco. when speaking to the fbi, did you characterize him as a wise guy, or is that the agent's characterization? mr. donovan. he was a wise guy in the sense that he could be disrespectful in a way that you would accept. he would in a very respectful manner argue with someone and in most cases it was obvious to people listening that he knew more than the person he was arguing with. we had one fellow on our crew, a s. sgt. cornelius brown, and sergeant brown is the most competent sergeant in the field of radar that i have ever encountered. sergeant brown could barely write. he could read, but again barely read. he could read a newspaper. but most people like to think they are well informed on all subjects. and it was characteristic of oswald to bait people, particularly on foreign affairs. he would listen interestedly, ask questions in an interested manner, and then if the person were not too high in rank, could point out a dozen places they didn't know what they were talking about. mr. ely. do you feel that he ever asked questions about foreign affairs because he truly wanted to know the person's opinion? mr. donovan. no; i think his mind was made up. i think he wanted to ask questions to later expose to his comrades that he knew far more than a person in a position of authority. i think he tried to make it evident to his contemporaries that in many cases he was more gifted and more intelligent than people who were in charge of him. and this in itself was ridiculous--according to his way of thinking. i don't think that he ever asked information of anyone on foreign affairs, including me, whose opinion he particularly respected. he had his mind made up and was willing to discuss that point of view with anyone. mr. ely. how did oswald's fellow enlisted men react to his baiting of ncos and officers? mr. donovan. well, sometimes, if he tried to humiliate the sergeant in the presence of others, the sergeant has many ways of getting even, and he can make a cleanup detail much more detailed, he can make barracks inspections much more frequently, and i don't think this particularly made his fellow marines enthusiastic about his attitude. mr. ely. do you think his fellow marines accepted his view that he was brighter than the officers he was talking to? mr. donovan. yes; i think that they accepted the view that he was brighter than most people, and was particularly capable in the field of world affairs. in respect to them, i think he knew more than they did, at least in facts. i think they admired his ability to pursue russian on his own and learn it. and i think anyone must admit that this reflects a degree of intelligence. mr. ely. while you and oswald were in the same unit, was he ever in any trouble of a nature which would require administrative action? mr. donovan. not that i recall. mr. ely. returning to this date that you had with this airline stewardess, did she tell you anything about oswald? mr. donovan. as i recall, the only thing she said was that he was rather strange. and i do recall that either she or her brother at that time mentioned that he does speak russian and reads russian newspapers. mr. ely. did she say in what way he was strange? mr. donovan. i don't recall in what way she said he was strange. mr. ely. did you get the feeling that she hadn't enjoyed herself when she was with him? mr. donovan. i got that impression. but i think that they didn't share any common interest. i think he was truly interested in international affairs, and that is not typical of her or other stewardesses i have known. mr. ely. do you recall the circumstances under which oswald left the marine corps? mr. donovan. yes; i do. mr. ely. could you relate them to us, please? mr. donovan. i recall that he got a hardship discharge. we offered to get him a flight--that is a hop from el toro to some place in texas, his home. he refused. we considered that normal in that if you take a hop you sacrifice your transportation pay. we offered to take him to a bus or train station. he refused. but that is not particularly unusual, either. i recall that he was gone for some period of time, and shortly before i got out of the marine corps, which was mid-december , we received word that he had showed up in moscow. this necessitated a lot of change of aircraft call signs, codes, radio frequencies, radar frequencies. he had the access to the location of all bases in the west coast area, all radio frequencies for all squadrons, all tactical call signs, and the relative strength of all squadrons, number and type of aircraft in a squadron, who was the commanding officer, the authentication code of entering and exiting the adiz, which stands for air defense identification zone. he knew the range of our radar. he knew the range of our radio. and he knew the range of the surrounding units' radio and radar. if you had asked me a month after i left that area, i could not have told you any but our own. had i wanted to record them, i certainly could have secretly, and taken them with me. unless he intentionally with malice aforethought wrote them down, i doubt if he would have been able to recall them a month later, either. mr. ely. you recall that various codes were changed. now, at what level were these changed? was this an action of your specific unit, or a fairly widespread action? mr. donovan. well, i did not witness the changing in any other squadrons, but it would have to be, because the code is obviously between two or more units. therefore, the other units had to change it. these codes are a grid, and two lines correspond. and he gives the grid that you want, and he reads back "ab," or whatever the reply is supposed to be, the authentication is supposed to be. mr. ely. are authentication codes changed from time to time as a matter of course? mr. donovan. they are changed from time to time, that is right. mr. ely. are they changed even if there is no specific incident which elicits the change? mr. donovan. they are methodically changed anyway. there are some things which he knew on which he received instruction that there is no way of changing, such as the mps height-finder radar gear. that had recently been integrated into the marine corps system. it had a height-finding range far in excess of our previous equipment, and it has certain limitations. he had been schooled on those limitations. it cannot operate above a given altitude in setting--in other words, you cannot place the thing above a given terrain height. he had also been schooled on a piece of machinery called a tpx- , which is used to transfer radio--radar and radio signals over a great distance. radar is very susceptible to homing missiles, and this piece of equipment is used to put your radar antenna several miles away, and relay the information back to your site which you hope is relatively safe. he had been schooled on this. and that kind of stuff you cannot change. mr. ely. did oswald have any kind of clearance? mr. donovan. he must have had secret clearance to work in the radar center, because that was a minimum requirement for all of us. mr. ely. was the spot at which he worked such that in order to gain admittance one would have to show some sort of credentials? mr. donovan. yes; they checked your card data. within the center, which is called a counter-air operations center, he rotated through all positions of an enlisted man. at times, as i told you, he served as plotter, sometimes surveillance, sometimes even as crew chief. mr. ely. were you the one who picked the crew chief? mr. donovan. i was in a rather favorable position, since i was the training officer and assistant operations officer, that i had first choice of crew chiefs. i always picked one of two men--either sgt. cornelius brown or sgt. eugene holmburg. i have already told you where sergeant brown is. sergeant holmburg is now a commissioned warrant officer and still on active duty in the marine corps. mr. ely. did you ever pick oswald to act as crew chief? mr. donovan. there was occasion when oswald acted as crew chief. if one of these sergeants had another duty somewhere else, and oswald was senior man present, he was crew chief. and i had no complaint about his work. mr. ely. did he show any special ability in this direction? mr. donovan. yes; i think he was competent, very competent. and i think he did his job well. i don't recall anything coming up that he could not handle. mr. ely. in acting as crew chief, do you think he demonstrated leadership qualities? mr. donovan. i don't think he was a leader. mr. ely. however, is it fair to say that any reservations you have about his ability as a leader were not sufficient to make you decide never to use him as a crew chief again? mr. donovan. i would not hesitate to use him as a crew chief. mr. ely. when the other men in the unit found out that oswald was in the process of getting a hardship discharge, did they make any offers to help, other than the ones you have mentioned concerning transportation? mr. donovan. i recall that i offered to help him any way i could, including financially. and you can talk to sergeant brown, but i believe that sergeant brown helped him, or offered to help him. mr. ely. did he accept these offers? mr. donovan. he did not from me, and to the best of my knowledge he did not from anyone. mr. ely. did he give a reason for refusing them? mr. donovan. he didn't need the help. mr. ely. did you find out about his attempt to get a hardship discharge through observation of his papers, or did he mention it to you? mr. donovan. i have no idea. i don't recall seeing any papers. just word around the squadron. mr. ely. would you have any idea of how long in advance of his actual discharge you or others heard about the fact that he was trying to get a discharge? mr. donovan. i do not recall. mr. ely. did he ever discuss with you the reasons for the discharge? mr. donovan. i don't recall if he ever discussed them or not. i did know that his mother needed help. and, at that time, i recall that i believed he was a sole surviving son. since that date i have read that he has a brother. at that time, as i recall, i believed him to be an only son, and his mother needed help. mr. ely. did you observe on the part of oswald anything that could be termed mental instability? mr. donovan. no; except that he had an extreme passion for this field of foreign affairs--or at least in his discussions with me--and they might have been limited to me, i don't know. but it is unusual when anyone is solely interested in one given thing. mr. ely. during discussions of foreign affairs, did he get visibly angry, did he raise his voice? mr. donovan. no; he never raised his voice, but he could become passionate in the defense of a point, and become quite enthusiastic in trying to get you to see what he saw. mr. ely. but he always retained physical control of himself, in terms of pounding the table, screaming? mr. donovan. oh, yes; i don't believe he became any more physically worked up than people we talk with every day. mr. ely. did you observe oswald to complain about the marine corps any more than the average marine complains about the marine corps? mr. donovan. no; he stuck in my mind in that respect only because he was particularly opposed to the recognition promotion program. most guys complain about having to stand so many inspections, having to clean up the barracks so many times, having to go on kp so many times, et cetera. i don't recall those complaints from him. they may have come. the complaint he had was that the marine corps did not recognize his ability to to be in a position of command. i recall that on several instances i encouraged him to pursue this, and put in for nco leadership school, if he felt he had the qualities, or to go out, get a commission, and come back in, and try to do his best in that way. mr. ely. do you know whether he ever took an ocs qualification exam? mr. donovan. i do not recall that he did. mr. ely. do you recall any interest on oswald's part in music? mr. donovan. no; i do not. mr. ely. fine. i am going to run down a list of short questions like that, and the answer to many of them may be simply that you don't remember. these are things that have been suggested to us. do you recall whether or not he played chess? mr. donovan. yes; i do recall. i have played chess with him some nights. and, as a matter of fact, he was a pretty good chess player. i won the base championship that year in chess. i know that on occasion he beat me. that was not a very big base. but he and i were comparable players. i think i beat him more times than i lost to him. mr. ely. did he ever have occasion to discuss with you his religious beliefs? mr. donovan. i don't recall that he ever expressed any belief in god. mr. ely. do you recall that he---- mr. donovan. i don't recall that he ever expressed any denial of god. mr. ely. never mentioned the subject at all? mr. donovan. if he did, i don't recall it. mr. ely. do you recall his getting into any fights while he and you were at santa ana? mr. donovan. i do not recall his getting into any fights. mr. ely. i believe you mentioned earlier that he did not seem to you particularly interested in girls. was this just because he was interested in other things, or do you have any reason to believe that there was anything abnormal about his desires? mr. donovan. i have no reason to suspect that he was homosexual, and in that squadron at that time one fellow was discharged from the service for being homosexual. he was in no way tied in with it that i know of. his lack of interest in girls may be only my belief, because as an officer i cannot have occasion to know him socially, but in our conversations he never was particularly interested in talking about them. mr. ely. do you know whether he smoked? mr. donovan. i don't recall. mr. ely. would you say that he had a good sense of humor? mr. donovan. if my sense of humor is good, he did not. mr. ely. did he attempt to be funny? mr. donovan. he attempted it at times. mr. ely. and, in your opinion, failed? mr. donovan. and in my opinion he was a failure in that respect. mr. ely. you have mentioned that he read a russian newspaper. do you remember any other possessions or habits or affectations which would suggest an interest in the soviet union? mr. donovan. no, i do not. however, i do recall that in college we had some monumentally boring textbooks to read concerning gatt, et cetera--at least at the time they were monumentally boring. and on occasion he would bring up one of these books--i don't recall which one--but say, "are you familiar with this?" and it was my good fortune to have studied it. and he would ask about something. and in some respects he would ask you about a term he did not know. but he never would ask you about a concept, except in an effort to get you to discuss it or argue it. but he would ask you what some word meant in economics. he was interested in international economics. mr. ely. could you state for the record what gatt stands for? mr. donovan. general agreement on trade and tariff. mr. ely. do you recall his having any nicknames? mr. donovan. yes. mr. ely. what were they? mr. donovan. ozzie. mr. ely. anything else? mr. donovan. not that i recall. mr. ely. did most people call him ozzie? mr. donovan. or oz. mr. ely. did you ever know or hear of his being in contact with the cuban consulate, either in person or by mail? mr. donovan. i never heard of that. mr. ely. do you remember whether---- mr. donovan. are you talking about then, or now? mr. ely. i am talking about then, right. do you recall whether he made any trips, when he had time off? mr. donovan. yes; i think he took a couple of trips down to tijuana, but i don't think those were for reasons of studying international economics, although they might well have been. mr. ely. did he ever tell you what he did in tijuana? mr. donovan. never, and i never inquired. mr. ely. do you know whether he took any trips to los angeles? mr. donovan. i don't know it, but i am sure he did, because it was common for all those boys to go in and out of los angeles or hollywood, or up to disneyland--whether they wanted to go up for a beer or a date or something. mr. ely. did you notice that he either took more trips than the average marine, or that he took fewer trips? mr. donovan. i did not recognize his itinerary as being anything out of the ordinary in that respect. mr. ely. do you remember his receiving any visitors while he was at santa ana? mr. donovan. i do not recall his receiving any visitors. mr. ely. does the name lieutenant cupenak mean anything to you? mr. donovan. means absolutely nothing to me. mr. ely. cupenak does not even sound like any name that means anything to you? mr. donovan. yes, i knew a lieutenant john cuaka. c-u-a-k-a. that spelling is strictly phonetic. mr. ely. was he at santa ana at that time? mr. donovan. i do not believe he was. i knew him in the philippines and in japan. he was a radar maintenance officer that generally served with a gca, standing for ground control approach unit. but cupenak doesn't ring a bell at all. mr. ely. finally, mr. donovan, i would like to get your opinion on which of the men who were at santa ana at the time that both you and oswald were there would be most helpful to us in reconstructing the personality of oswald. i will mention the names that i have to you, and see whether you think---- mr. donovan. you mean which in the plural or singular? you want me to say which would be most---- mr. ely. i will read the names to you, and you can comment on them individually. do you remember a man named thornley? mr. donovan. i don't recall the name at all. mr. ely. all right. how about a man named lewis? mr. donovan. don't recall the name at all. mr. ely. botelho? mr. donovan. yes, botelho was a man in our squadron. i cannot recall his face. but i do recall the man being in our squadron. and he went by the nickname, normally enough, of bo. mr. ely. do you remember whether or not he knew oswald well? mr. donovan. no, i do not. mr. ely. do you remember a man named call? mr. donovan. i certainly do. he is from allentown, pa. i tried to look him up after my discharge. i was passing through his town. he was a corporal, later sergeant, i believe, buck sergeant. mr. ely. do you recall whether he knew oswald? mr. donovan. he must have. call was another boy i played chess with. mr. ely. would you characterize call as an intellectual? mr. donovan. i would characterize call as being modestly intelligent--modestly not referring to his degree of intelligence, but in reference to his character concerning his intelligence. mr. ely. do you remember a man named delgado? mr. donovan. i certainly do--quite well. delgado was on my crew. he was one of the boys that used to speak with the mexican ham operators to ask them to leave the air when we were talking to aircraft. and delgado had a command of mexican more than spanish. delgado was a very dependable boy. mr. ely. do you think he would be able to help us concerning oswald? mr. donovan. he could tell you much more about oswald's personal life than i can, because he lived in the same barracks area with him; delgado played on the football team. he many times served on the same crew with oswald. mr. ely. do you remember a man named murray? mr. donovan. yes, murray was a clerk. he had a radar specialization number, but we used him as a clerk. and, as i recall, he wanted to go back to medical school. i think he was from the south somewhere, i believe. very efficient, very intelligent, very competent, capable man. mr. ely. do you recall whether he knew oswald well, or would it be fair to say that all the men on the crew would know him? mr. donovan. well, murray i don't think you would say was on the crew so much. murray, because of his administrative ability, worked more in the office. murray was married. and that puts him in a little different light, too. i think he was very happily married. at the end of the day he went home--whereas oswald stayed in the barracks area. mr. ely. do you remember a man named powers? mr. donovan. the name rings a bell, but i don't really remember him. mr. ely. osborne? mr. donovan. yes. mr. ely. do you recall whether osborne was an acquaintance of oswald's? mr. donovan. yes. osborne i knew quite well. he played football with us for some time. he must have known him. i don't know if he actually lived in the same barracks. he knew him. i don't know how well he knew him. mr. ely. now, you have mentioned captain trail to us, and also sergeant brown. mr. donovan. captain trail was lieutenant trail when i knew him. i think he is now captain trail. mr. ely. yes. can you think of any other names that neither you nor i have already mentioned? mr. donovan. yes; another fellow that i am sure knew him was a fellow named elmer ellsworth randolph. and he is now a salesman for brock candy co., somewhere in the chicago area. another fellow that probably knows him is now on active duty--fred walker. he is a captain. i believe walker knew him. captain block, robert block, was the operations officer at that time. i don't know if he would remember oswald or not. mr. ely. do you recall whether oswald ever went to night clubs? bars? mr. donovan. i think he used to go down to the enlisted men's club to drink beer. i recall going down there one night to talk to some boys on a disturbance and i vaguely remember him being there, but i would not swear to that. mr. ely. would you have any personal knowledge of whether he attended offpost bars or night clubs? mr. donovan. no, i would not. mr. ely. did he drink more than the average marine, the same amount, less? mr. donovan. i believed not. however, after the assassination of president kennedy, i talked to lieutenant trail on the phone and trail told me that he had been mixed up in some drinking bouts in japan. mr. ely. but from your own---- mr. donovan. from my own personal knowledge, i do not know that he drank to excess. mr. ely. but he did drink some? mr. donovan. i don't ever recall seeing him drink. but as i recall the conversation, i believe he did. but i don't know that for a fact. mr. ely. well, in that case, mr. donovan, i think that is all the questions i have for you. do you think of anything else that might be helpful to us in trying to figure out what sort of a man oswald was? mr. donovan. there is one name that you did not mention that i know that lived in the same barracks he did. cpl. sherman cooley. he also served on that crew. i served with cooley overseas, and in santa ana. cooley is another fellow that was intelligent, but very modest about it. the reason i remember his first name, it always struck me as strange that someone named sherman would live in louisiana. another boy's name is dejanovich. that is phonetic. dejanovich lived in chicago, and after i was discharged from the service i called him on the phone a couple of times, passing through there. another guy that would know him is a boy named jurarado, i believe. i don't know how much these boys knew about him. they are just people that were there at the same time. mr. ely. your mention of dejanovich reminds me of a question i intended to ask you. do you recall any of oswald's former marines calling him oswaldovich, or anything that sounded like that? mr. donovan. no. mr. ely. do you recall fellow marines referring to him as "comrade?" mr. donovan. no. mr. ely. well, if you have nothing more to add, mr. donovan, on behalf of the commission, i would like to thank you for giving us your time and testimony. it has been very helpful. testimony of allison g. folsom, lt. col., usmc the testimony of allison g. folsom, lt. col., usmc, was taken at : p.m., on may , , at maryland avenue ne., washington, d.c., by mr. john hart ely, member of the staff of the president's commission. mr. ely. colonel, would you please stand up and be sworn? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? colonel folsom. i do. mr. ely. my name is john ely. i am a member of the legal staff of the president's commission investigating the assassination of president kennedy. staff members have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the commission pursuant to authority granted to the commission by executive order no. , dated november , , and joint resolution of congress no. . under the commission rules for the taking of testimony, each witness is to be provided with a copy of the executive order and of the joint resolution and a copy of the rules that the commission has adopted governing the taking of testimony from witnesses. i have provided you with these documents, is that correct? colonel folsom. this is true. mr. ely. under the commission's rules for the taking of testimony, each witness is entitled to days' notice before he is required to come in and give testimony. you did not have days' notice. however, each witness can waive that notice requirement if he wishes, and i assume that your presence here indicates you are willing to waive that notice requirement. colonel folsom. it is waived. mr. ely. would you state your full name, please? colonel folsom. lt. col. allison g. folsom, jr., u.s. marine corps. mr. ely. what is your job in the marine corps, sir? colonel folsom. my primary duty is head, records branch, personnel department, headquarters u.s. marine corps, washington, d.c. mr. ely. how long have you held this position? colonel folsom. approximately years. mr. ely. could you give us something of an idea of your background--what you did before you entered the marine corps? colonel folsom. i was a student. mr. ely. and how long have you been in the marine corps? colonel folsom. i entered active duty in the marine corps august . mr. ely. prior to the assassination of president kennedy, had you ever heard the name lee harvey oswald? colonel folsom. yes. mr. ely. could you tell us in what connection that was? colonel folsom. it was in connection with his record, which was requested by the discipline branch of headquarters, marine corps, and they advised me of his renunciation, i would guess, of his citizenship, and the fact that they were trying to effect his discharge. mr. ely. i see. and that is the first time you had ever heard of him? colonel folsom. yes, sir. mr. ely. did you ever meet the man? colonel folsom. no. mr. ely. all right. the primary reason that we have called you here, colonel, is not because of any contact which you have had with oswald, but because of your position. we have here oswald's marine records, and we would like you to help us interpret some of the abbreviations, test scores and things like that. let me show you this document, which we will mark folsom deposition exhibit no. , and ask you if you can tell us what it is. (the document referred to was marked folsom deposition exhibit no. for identification.) colonel folsom. it represents a photostatic copy of the official record held by the marine corps of lee harvey oswald, former marine. mr. ely. our procedure now will be to go through the document which you have just identified. i have numbered the pages of this document in the upper right-hand corner. we will ask you to explain things as we come to them. starting on page of exhibit no. , first i wonder if you might tell us what oswald's scores here under the category of physical profile mean. colonel folsom. well, the classification of "a" indicates that there were no physical defects at the time he was examined--the date, october , i assume, was upon his enlistment. mr. ely. yes; moving down the left side of page , we have the abbreviation "pebd." will you tell us what that stands for? colonel folsom. pay entry base date. mr. ely. i note that the pay entry base date on oswald's record has been changed from october to december . why would this be? colonel folsom. that is correct. this was changed to reflect time lost due to misconduct, confinement, or intemperate use of drugs or alcohol. in this instance it was days lost due to confinement. mr. ely. also on page it is noted that oswald was a "uq" class swimmer. what does that stand for? colonel folsom. unqualified. mr. ely. finally on page , at the bottom, there is written in the fact that among the documents inserted in the record are some relating to "sa" action. colonel folsom. supervisory authority action in a court-martial. mr. ely. i show you now page of this exhibit. could you tell us generally what this page of the record is. colonel folsom. page of the marine corps enlisted service record constitutes a record of primary duty assignments, the organization to which the individual was attached, with the dates, and also shows conduct and proficiency markings. mr. ely. in connection with these conduct and proficiency markings, could you tell us what the scale is on which these grades are assigned? colonel folsom. the marine corps marks on a scale of from to . . mr. ely. . is the maximum grade? colonel folsom. that is correct. mr. ely. and what would be the minimum satisfactory grade? is there no minimum? colonel folsom. no; there is none as such, because the markings are averaged at the end of the enlistment, and in accordance with existing regulations, the numerical quality of the markings determine the difference in the character of discharge between honorable and under honorable conditions. mr. ely. do you know what the minimum average for an honorable discharge would be? colonel folsom. i believe--was the question under honorable conditions? mr. ely. well, what would be the minimum for an honorable discharge? colonel folsom. . . mr. ely. all right. now, i would like to take up some of these abbreviations specifically. i think the easiest way to designate this would be to go down the various columns on this page. now, the column on the extreme left is labeled "organization." i shall ask you about the ones which i think might be unclear to somebody looking at this exhibit. there is an abbreviation here, after oswald left jacksonville, he was transferred to a unit abbreviated casco hqbn hqmc. would you tell us what that stands for? colonel folsom. that indicates he was attached to the casual company, headquarters battalion, headquarters, u.s. marine corps, at that time. mr. ely. now, this would have been while he was---- colonel folsom. he joined on may . mr. ely. yes; i believe it was during the time he was at keesler air force base. colonel folsom. yes; undergoing duty under instruction. mr. ely. moving to the "reason" column on this page, we have here an entry of october , which is abbreviated, "to sk." what does that stand for? colonel folsom. to sick. he was admitted to the u.s. naval hospital yokosuka, japan. mr. ely. and the entry directly below that one, which is abbreviated "to du" would mean return to duty? colonel folsom. that is correct. mr. ely. the entry directly below the to duty entry which is abbreviated "semian" would indicate what? colonel folsom. that it was a semiannual marking. mr. ely. in other words, this is an entry strictly for marking purposes? colonel folsom. that is correct. mr. ely. and the entry directly below that is abbreviated "to cnfd." colonel folsom. to confinement. in this instance, serving sentence summary court-martial. mr. ely. moving now to the next column, labeled "primary duty," one abbreviation which recurs is "duins." could you tell us what that means? colonel folsom. duty under instruction. mr. ely. and the entry of september has an abbreviation which i believe refers to the sort of job which oswald was performing. could you tell us what that stands for? colonel folsom. in this case he was a replacement trainee. mr. ely. well, that is the entry for july . that stands for replacement trainee. could you tell us what the entry for september is? colonel folsom. it indicates that he joined marine air control squadron, no. , marine air group , first marine aircraft wing, fleet marine force, care of "fpo" san francisco. this is a mailing address for an organization in the first wing which at that time was in japan. mr. ely. and what was the job that he performed? colonel folsom. he was an aviation electronics operator. mr. ely. all right. i think that with the help you have given us, anybody looking over this record which appears at page and of the folsom deposition exhibit no. could readily understand the progress of oswald's service. turning now to page of the exhibit, i notice that before oswald was awarded his final mos, he was awarded an mos, that is a military occupational specialty, of . do you know, colonel, what that stands for? colonel folsom. it is a basic mos in aviation electronics, i believe. mr. ely. now, we have an entry at the bottom of page of this exhibit which was later crossed out. could you explain to us the meaning of that entry? colonel folsom. yes. this is an entry that is additional information as to promotion status on transfer to a new organization. this entry shows that oswald achieved a composite score for the second testing period of . the reason it was deleted was due to his reduction from the rank of private first class to private pursuant to sentence of a summary court-martial. mr. ely. is there any way of evaluating his score of ? colonel folsom. it would be very difficult to reconstruct it. it is a composition of conduct and proficiency markings, time in service, and time in grade. and promotions are based on cutting scores established by headquarters marine corps, which are promulgated to the field, and individuals holding the cutting score or higher may be promoted by their local organizations. mr. ely. but the cutting score which is promulgated varies from time to time? colonel folsom. it fluctuates. well, it does not fluctuate--it is controlled by a staff agency at headquarters, marine corps, to fulfill the needs of the marine corps by--in the varying grades. mr. ely. turning our attention now to page of the exhibit, i notice here in the section labeled "allotments" that toward the end of oswald's marine corps career his mother received two allotments. these two allotments are designated differently in terms of purpose--one being given a "q" designation and the other being given a "d" designation. can you explain what the difference is? colonel folsom. the "q" allotment is one where a portion of it is provided by the government, and the other portion by the individual. it is a dependency allotment. the "d" allotment, i believe, is an additional voluntary contribution. mr. ely. the "d" allotment is one that the individual marine decides to send out of his pay? colonel folsom. that is correct. mr. ely. immediately below the allotment section is the record of oswald's firing of various weapons. we would like you to explain some of the abbreviations found in this record. under the column "course" we see that at one point he fired the m- rifle on a so-called "a" course, and, too, he fired it on a "b" course. could you tell us what the difference is between those two courses? colonel folsom. yes; the "a" course is the standard marksmanship qualification course used by the marine corps for the m- rifle. the "b" course is a shorter course--by that, less rounds of ammunition are fired. mr. ely. but both of these courses are such that one can record a score? colonel folsom. yes; there are scores and adjective designations as a result of the scores. in the case of the "a" course, oswald obtained a score of which would, under regulations in effect at that time, have made him a sharpshooter. however, the score of was erroneously designated with the abbreviation "mm" for marksman. when he fired the "b" course, he is rated "mm" or marksman, and this is a correct designation in accordance with the score fired. mr. ely. am i correct in stating that when he fired the "a" course he would have been still in basic training at san diego? colonel folsom. yes. mr. ely. this was on the st of december . did you mention what the minimum score for sharpshooter would have been at that point? colonel folsom. it would have been . mr. ely. in other words, he was two points over the minimum for sharpshooter and the designation "mm" on his record was an error? colonel folsom. that is correct. mr. ely. am i correct in stating that the "b" course firing to which you referred occurred on may , , at el toro, calif.? colonel folsom. this is correct. mr. ely. his record also discloses that he fired a riot gun, a . caliber pistol, and at some times an m- rifle on a course designated "fam." that stands for familiarization? colonel folsom. that is correct. mr. ely. and that means that no scores---- colonel folsom. no score is recorded. it is merely to familiarize the people with the operation of the weapon. mr. ely. when you speak of ratings of sharpshooter and marksman, is it correct that the scale runs--marksman is the lowest, sharpshooter the next highest, and expert would be the highest category? colonel folsom. that is correct. mr. ely. turning now to page of the exhibit, which is titled "military and civilian occupational specialties and education," i see hereabout halfway down the left column abbreviations for the courses taken by oswald, first while he was at jacksonville, and then while he was at keesler air force base. could you tell us the meanings of these two abbreviations? colonel folsom. yes; at jacksonville he was undergoing instruction in aviation fundamentals school, course "p." and at keesler air force base, he was undergoing a course of instruction in air control and warning operator's course. both of these courses were of weeks' duration. mr. ely. i am a little curious about keesler air force base. is that under the auspices of the air force rather than the marine corps? colonel folsom. yes; it is an air force school. mr. ely. and do people from all branches of the service get trained there? colonel folsom. yes; we have cross training with all the other services. mr. ely. all right. now, moving further down page , we have the record of a russian examination taken by oswald on february , . could you explain to us what sort of test this was, and what the scores achieved by oswald mean? colonel folsom. the test form was department of the army, adjutant general's office, prt- . this is merely the test series designation. now, under "understands" the scoring was minus , which means that he got five more wrong than right. the "p" in parentheses indicates "poor." under reading he achieved a score of , which is low. this, again, is shown by the "p" in parentheses for "poor." mr. ely. this means he got four more questions right than wrong? colonel folsom. this is correct. and under "writes" he achieved a score of , with "p" in parentheses, and this indicates he got three more right than he did wrong. his total score was , with a "p" in parentheses meaning that overall he got two more right than wrong, and his rating was poor throughout. mr. ely. page also summarizes the results of the battery of classification and aptitude tests taken by oswald upon his entry into the marine corps, specifically on october , . this battery was composed of six examinations. oswald's scores i see range from as low as to as high as . could you, colonel, tell us about these six categories, what they are, and what oswald's scores in each of them means? colonel folsom. yes. i will take this in sequence. the "rv" indicates reading and vocabulary, and the score, roman numeral ii- indicates that he was in the second category. categories throughout the test battery run from i to iv, with iv being the highest. the abbreviation "ac"--arithmetical computation--and the score roman numeral iii- , indicates that he dropped into the third class. "ar" is arithmetical computation, roman numeral iii- , indicates that he was at the bottom of the grade in this area. "pa" indicates pattern analysis, roman numeral iii- indicates that he was the bottom portion of the third group in this category. now, these four areas are grouped into a general classification test score, the abbreviation "gct" represents that definition. and as a result of oswald's composite scores, he was graded as a grade , roman iii- . at that time, the marine corps average, i believe, was . mr. ely. would you explain the one designated "rct"? colonel folsom. the abbreviation "rct" is--represents radio code test. there are three scores in this, ranging from one to three, with one being the highest. the minimum, or the range in grade iii is from to . as oswald achieved , he was in the bottom, practically, of group iii. mr. ely. which is the lowest group. colonel folsom. which is the lowest. mr. ely. now, directing your attention to page , which is a summary court memorandum: this relates, i believe, to his first court-martial, and in general is self-explanatory. i want, however, to ask you about one sentence which to me seems to be in error. according to the notation made here on page , under the title "convening authorities action dated," it states that that part of oswald's sentence confining him at hard labor for days would be suspended "for months at which time, unless the suspension is sooner vacated, the sentence to confinement at hard labor for days will be remitted without further action." however, turning our attention down to section , page , it was noted that on june , , which would be the time of his second court-martial, "confinement at hard labor for days vacated on june , ." so the way it is worded it says that the confinement would be vacated. am i correct in assuming, colonel, that what it really means to say is that the suspension of the sentence was vacated? colonel folsom. this is correct. however, there appears to be an error here, since the original sentence was for days, and not days, as shown under the subject entry. mr. ely. right. so i suppose we have a typographical error, substituting for and we also have a misleading sentence in that it implies that the sentence was vacated rather than that the suspension of the sentence was vacated. colonel folsom. this is correct. mr. ely. however, colonel, what did happen is that when he was court-martialed the second time, they then sentenced him to both the sentence for the second court-martial and at that time gave him the sentence that he received in connection with the first court-martial? colonel folsom. well, that portion of it--unexecuted portion of the first sentence. mr. ely. that is correct. thank you. on page of the exhibit we have some records relating to the second court-martial. at this point, again, i think the page is in general self-explanatory. however, under the section marked "findings" on each charge, and specifications, there is the notation that on charge ii he was found not guilty, and then it goes on to say, "on specification of" charge i. am i correct in thinking that is a typographical error and that it should be that on the specification of charge ii, he was found not guilty? colonel folsom. that is correct. mr. ely. so the record should read, on page , that oswald was found guilty on charge i, which was a violation of article of the uniform code of military justice. similarly he was found guilty on the specification under charge i, which was wrongfully using provoking words to a staff noncommissioned officer. however, on charge ii, which was a violation of article of the uniform code of military justice, he was found not guilty, and he was similarly found not guilty on the specification of that charge which was assaulting a staff noncommissioned officer by pouring a drink on him. colonel folsom. this is correct. mr. ely. turning now to page of the exhibit, the title of which is "administrative remarks" i note entries dated april , , indicating that a request for an extension of oswald's overseas tour had been received and approved. must such a request come from the marine whose overseas tour is involved? colonel folsom. yes. this must be a voluntary request from the individual concerned. mr. ely. in other words, then, oswald wanted to stay overseas longer than he was scheduled to have been over there? colonel folsom. yes. mr. ely. i note, also, on page that this extension which had been approved was later canceled, on july , . is there any way of determining from this record what the reason for this cancellation was? colonel folsom. no; other than knowledge of the system, which indicates that the local commander withdrew his approval of the extension as a result of the disciplinary action. mr. ely. so we might guess that because this followed his second court-martial, that was the reason? colonel folsom. yes; and it followed it very closely. mr. ely. now, we will move all the way over to page , and i want to ask you about only one entry here--actually it is two entries relating to one event. on january , , the record discloses that oswald departed el toro for yuma, arizona, and that on january , , he returned to el toro from yuma. is there any way of telling from this record for what purpose he went to yuma? colonel folsom. yes. the record shows that he departed mcs, mcas, el toro, for adex, - , which is a designation for an air defense exercise, the first one held during . mr. ely. turning to page , i just want to clear up one detail that might be confusing to somebody who has been in the army rather than in the marine corps. it is here noted that oswald was, at least for part of his career, private, first class, and at the same time his pay grade was "e- ". am i correct in asserting that in the marine corps a private is an e- , a private first class is an e- , your e- is a lance corporal, and your e- is a corporal? colonel folsom. this is correct. this is under the new rank structure. mr. ely. turning now to page of folsom deposition exhibit , i want to ask you about only one abbreviation here. this is one that is indicated for both the periods june , through june , and july , through july , . it is an abbreviated cnf sscm. what does that stand for? colonel folsom. confined, serving sentence--it should be summary court-martial, but let me look at the record. mr. ely. you mean there should be three "s's"? colonel folsom. i just want to be sure somebody didn't goof and ring a special in here. yes--serving sentence, summary court-martial. mr. ely. turning now to page of the exhibit, we have here a document relating to the high school level general educational development tests which were taken by oswald on march , . page reports the scores received by oswald on each of these five tests, and also converts each score into a so-called united states percentile. however, it does not make clear what the five areas in which oswald was tested were. could you tell us what they are? colonel folsom. yes. the high school "ged" test covers five areas. one, english literature; two, english composition; three, social sciences; four, physical sciences; five, mathematics. mr. ely. is it the case that those five that you have just read off were read in the same order as they are numbered on the score sheet? colonel folsom. yes. the battery is administered in the sequence in which it appears on the report. mr. ely. and am i correct in asserting that on this test oswald received a rating of satisfactory? colonel folsom. this is correct. i believe usafi rates as satisfactory or unsatisfactory. mr. ely. right. well, that is not entirely clear. we have a rating code printed in the lower right-hand corner. colonel folsom. well, they have two passing ones--satisfactory, and "d" with distinction, and "u", unsatisfactory. mr. ely. so he could have received a higher rating than he did? colonel folsom. this is correct. mr. ely. finally for this document, turning to page , we have a rather imposing score sheet which relates oswald's scores while he was in training at jacksonville, florida. could you explain the meaning of these numbers insofar as you can? colonel folsom. well, the first column indicates the number of hours devoted to the subject. in the first instance, hours to mathematics, two examinations were given, he achieved a score of on the first and on the second. the last--the next column indicates his average score for that subject. twenty-five hours physics, score, and . mr. ely. excuse me. do you know whether those scores you just read are on a scale of ? colonel folsom. i do not know. but from the mathematics i would assume they are, particularly since they say that is a passing score. mr. ely. i see. now, getting back again to the column which is second from the right, which you say represents his average. it is his average on the previous test carried out to three digits without the decimal point. colonel folsom. that is correct. this report was prepared on an electric accounting machine, and is a little difficult to interpret. mr. ely. yes. but i do see that that makes sense in terms of the individual scores. colonel folsom. do you want to go through all of these? mr. ely. no; i don't think that will be necessary, now that you have explained the principle by which the scores are recorded. colonel folsom. under the heading "indoctrination test scores" this is a test, an army test battery, which in this instance was administered by the marine corps at a navy installation. it consists of a reading and vocabulary, arithmetic computation, arithmetical reasoning, and pattern analysis. the "gc" is an abbreviation for "gct". these are raw scores. mr. ely. the ones designated rv, ac, ar, and pa? colonel folsom. and the scores indicated are raw scores, which converted to the marine corps scoring on the general classification test shows that oswald achieved a score of on this test battery, and a score of on the marine corps test batter. so the correlation is quite close. the column headed "b" indicates year of birth. and the "g" column indicates the number of years of schooling--in this case, nine. mr. ely. all right. colonel, i would finally like to show you a document which has already been introduced in evidence before the commission in connection with the testimony of marguerite oswald. it is, therefore, designated exhibit . this exhibit is a photostatic copy. could you tell us, colonel, of what it is a photostatic copy? colonel folsom. it is a photostatic copy of the u.s. marine corps scorebook for use with the u.s. rifle, caliber m- . now, this scorebook is issued to each individual at each time they are sent on the rifle range for qualification or requalification. they are maintained by the individual and are used to provide the individual with a record of the idiosyncracies of the weapon, and the weather on the day that the entries are made. this is referred to in the marine corps as the zero of the rifle, because the sight settings are individual characteristics of the particular rifle used. that is, he may--this rifle may require a half a point more windage under the same wind velocity than another rifle, and that the scale by yards may require adjustment depending upon the range that is being fired. mr. ely. this book, then, is used by the individual marine prior to his firing for record in order that he can zero his weapon so that he will do well on his record firing? colonel folsom. this is the purpose. and it should be maintained even on the day that he fires for record. in this particular record, it would appear that the entries were rather limited. as a matter of fact, it was not adequately maintained for the purpose for which it was designed. mr. ely. is it possible, colonel, to tell anything from this scorebook, assuming for the moment that it was accurately maintained, concerning the marksmanship of lee harvey oswald? colonel folsom. well, yes. but very generally. for instance, at yards slow fire--on tuesday, at yards slow fire, offhand position---- mr. ely. you are referring, are you not, to the page designated in oswald's scorebook? colonel folsom. right--well, as opposed to . he got out in the three ring, which is not good. they should be able to keep them--all shots within the four ring. mr. ely. and even if his weapon needed a great deal of adjustment in terms of elevation or windage, he still would have a closer group than that if he were a good shot? colonel folsom. yes. as a matter of fact, at yards, people should get a score of between and in the offhand position. mr. ely. and what was his score? colonel folsom. well, total shown on page would be--he got a score of out of a possible on tuesday, as shown on page of his record book. on wednesday, he got a score of , improved four points. do you want to compute these? mr. ely. i don't see any point in doing this page by page. i just wonder, after having looked through the whole scorebook, if we could fairly say that all that it proves is that at this stage of his career he was not a particularly outstanding shot. colonel folsom. no, no, he was not. his scorebook indicates--as a matter of fact--that he did well at one or two ranges in order to achieve the two points over the minimum score for sharpshooter. mr. ely. in other words, he had a good day the day he fired for qualification? colonel folsom. i would say so. mr. ely. well, colonel, as far as i can see, that is all the testimony that we need from you with regard to these records. no doubt there are ambiguities in the records which i have not caught. i have asked you about the ones that seemed most confusing to me. can you think of anything else that you would like to add for the record? colonel folsom. no; i believe that the record is rather complete. there are no missing documents from this official record. the photostatic copy contains everything that is in the original record. and i do not believe that there are any discrepancies, other than those clerical errors which have been noted on such items as the summary court-martial records. mr. ely. but you cannot think of any errors which we did not mention during your testimony today? colonel folsom. no; i do not. mr. ely. all right. in that case, colonel, on behalf of the commission, i want to thank you very much for giving your testimony. it has been very helpful. testimony of capt. george donabedian the testimony of captain george donabedian was taken at : p.m., on may , , at maryland avenue ne., washington, d.c., by mr. john hart ely, member of the staff of the president's commission. mr. ely. will you stand and be sworn? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? captain donabedian. i do. mr. ely. please be seated. my name is john ely. i am a member of the legal staff of the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy. staff members have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses pursuant to authority granted to the commission by executive order no. , dated november , , and joint resolution of congress no. . under the commission's rules, each witness is to be provided with a copy of the executive order of the joint resolution, and a copy of the rules that the commission has adopted governing the taking of testimony from witnesses. is it correct that i have provided you with copies of these documents? captain donabedian. yes. mr. ely. under the commission rules, also, each witness is entitled to days' notice before he is required to come and give testimony. you were not given days' notice. however, each witness can waive that notice requirement if he wishes, and i assume by your presence that you are willing to waive that notice requirement. captain donabedian. i do. mr. ely. would you state your full name, please? captain donabedian. captain george donabedian, medical corps, u.s. navy. mr. ely. and what position exactly do you hold? captain donabedian. staff medical officer, headquarters, u.s. marine corps, washington, d.c. mr. ely. you are an m.d., is that correct? captain donabedian. yes; i am. mr. ely. how long have you held the position of staff medical officer? captain donabedian. since july . mr. ely. prior to the assassination of president kennedy, had you ever heard of lee harvey oswald? captain donabedian. no; i had not. mr. ely. you, like lieutenant colonel folsom, were called in to give us some help in interpreting the records of lee harvey oswald--in other words, your testimony does not stem from any personal contact with the man. captain donabedian. right. mr. ely. i will show you now a document which i have just labeled "donabedian deposition exhibit no. ." (the document referred to was marked "donabedian deposition exhibit no. " for identification.) mr. ely. doctor, could you tell us generally what this document is? captain donabedian. this is taken from the health record of the marine. mr. ely. it is, in other words, a photostatic copy---- captain donabedian. a photostatic copy of a medical document which each military person has. we have the physical examinations on entrance, and any other illnesses that he may develop during his service, which diseases are recorded and the treatments are recorded, and the inoculations he receives. mr. ely. i have numbered the pages of this exhibit in the upper right-hand corner. because it was previously part of a larger document, commission document , the pagination of donabedian deposition exhibit no. runs from through . doctor, i would like, first, to refer you to an entry made on page of this exhibit, and dated july , . could you explain it? captain donabedian. "bleeding from the rectum. for the past month has noticed bleeding on paper after bowel movement. this a.m., one to two drops bright red blood dropped into stool. bowel movement light brown and very hard. examination." mr. ely. the copy at that point becomes illegible. captain donabedian. "slight irritation and moderate." anyway, they gave him treatment with mineral oil. mr. ely. and what was the overall diagnosis? captain donabedian. hemorrhoids was the diagnosis. mr. ely. and what did you say the treatment was? captain donabedian. the treatment was mineral oil, rectal suppository. mr. ely. all right. i would like to show you now an entry which is on page , but which is chronologically later than the one to which we just referred, and that is the entry dated---- captain donabedian. - - . "urethritis acute. nonvenereal." mr. ely. before we get into that, could we discuss the entry of - - ? captain donabedian. "sigmoidoscopy." i don't know what this number is, unless the number of the procedure. they discharged this man on - - . mr. ely. do you believe that relates to the hemorrhoids? captain donabedian. he may have had some trouble with the lower bowel, or possibly some more bleeding, and they looked inside the rectum and the sigmoid to determine if there was any cause of the bleeding. mr. ely. i would like at this point to refer you to pages through of this exhibit. i shall let you proceed to explain what these mean without questioning. captain donabedian. on - - , slight burning on urination. "has urethral discharge." mr. ely. well, if you cannot read it, there is no point---- captain donabedian. then they took a smear. mr. ely. what is the purpose of a smear? captain donabedian. a smear is to diagnose the cause of the infection, the cause of the discharge, to see what type of bacteria was present. and on - - , report of a urethral discharge sensitivity test. a culture was taken and reported staphylococcal hemolytic. and the sensitivity test to determine what drug we have that will affect that particular bacteria that is causing this. and erythromycin was the drug of choice. on page , on september he evidently went to one of the outlying dispensaries, and they said "send to the mainside for smear," which means he was sent to the mainside dispensary to get the smear taken. september , the complaint was urethral discharge. they sent him to the lab for a smear. and here it says, "gram negative, diplococci intra- and extra-cellular morphological resembling neisseria gonococci." mr. ely. could you tell us, doctor, generally, what that means? captain donabedian. well, this resembles the gonococcus bacteria which causes gonorrhea. and it says here morphologically resembling this germ--since the only legal diagnosis would be to have a culture made to prove this or disprove it. and here for his treatment they gave him penicillin, it looks like , units, four times a day, for days, and said "return on monday in the p.m., for a repeat smear." then on september , , "still has profuse discharge, somewhat clearer, received course of penicillin ending days ago." in other words, he had finished getting his penicillin. so for this profuse discharge, they treated him with chloromycetin capsules, one, four times a day, and return monday for smear and culture. then on september ---- mr. ely. i believe the last item was september . captain donabedian. then september , , urethral discharge, and it says "september " underneath--"urethral discharge, smear and culture." the smear showed many pus cells, no organisms noted. the culture showed micrococcus pyogenous vas aurens. this is the type of bacteria that gives a dark-greenish color discharge. mr. ely. does either the results of the smear or the results of the culture say anything about whether or not oswald had gonorrhea, or can we tell? captain donabedian. not in this one. the one above here, we assume he had gonorrhea--on the th. mr. ely. we would assume he had it, even though, as you pointed out, you could not prove it in court, because it was determined by a smear rather than a culture? captain donabedian. most of the doctors use this. they may take a smear, and they find that--intra and extracellular diplococci, they treat the patient for gonorrhea. now, the treatment for his micrococcus pyogenous is "continue chloromycetin," i guess it is four times a day. yes; it was four times a day. and then continue four times a day. and something was given. and they wanted him to return again. i cannot tell what this is. instructions, probably. some instructions were given. on september , , the complaint was urethral discharge. they took a smear. and that was--"many pus cells were noted, no organisms were noted." the note underneath is "good response to therapy, has been doing much heavy lifting." they must have given him light duty for days. "to repeat smear, week." october , , the complaint was urethral discharge. they took a smear. the report was "moderate amount of pus cells, few gram positive cocci." this is not gonorrhea. "heavy discharge with occasional burning. has been doing heavy lifting recently." "some heavy discharge with occasional burning of the urination"--although this says dysurea--"has been doing heavy lifting recently." october , , the complaint was urethral discharge, and they gave him pyridium, one tablet five times a day--one gram five times a day. no--"return in days." they just gave him pyridium, and "d" means to duty, and return in days. "smear, few pus cells, some mucus threads noted, occasional gram positive cocci noted." the next date is hard to tell. something--"qid for for days." the next thing is hard to tell. mr. ely. all right. that entry is illegible. captain donabedian. page . he was admitted to the sick list, - - , diagnosis, "urethritis acute due to gonococcus." this is no. . and in handwriting---- mr. ely. that is my handwriting, so we will disregard that. captain donabedian. the chief complaint is urethral discharge. "present illness. patient complains of a slight discharge and a stinging sensation on urination. past history--previous venereal disease. physical examination, essentially negative, except for thick mucco burn discharge from the urethra. laboratory. smear reveals gram negative intra- and extra-cellular diplococci having a morphology resembling gonorrhea." unless they took a culture to grow the germ out, they could not absolutely be certain. mr. ely. you mentioned that under this previous history column it mentioned "previous vd." does that mean that oswald had had it prior to this time? captain donabedian. at another time, in his past, whenever that would be. it could have been while he was in the service, although we didn't notice in these records. but he could have had it before he came in the service. vd could be any venereal disease. there are five different kinds. mr. ely. but you have not seen any reference in his medical records to any prior case during his military career? captain donabedian. no; except those that we reported within those dates. treatment was procaine penicillin, , units, intramuscularly for days. now, you remember when we read the other report it looked like , units. it is most apt to be , units. mr. ely. it should be noted page contains typewriting rather than handwriting as the other one did. and i believe this entry on page is something of a summary. captain donabedian. this is a summary. he was admitted on - - , and discharged on the same day. but they readmitted these vd cases for statistical purposes, so we can keep track of how many people have been in contact with this. and he was sent to duty under treatment and observation. mr. ely. would it be fair to say, doctor, summarizing your testimony as to these few pages, that this looks, as far as we can tell, like a typical case of gonorrhea? captain donabedian. yes; it does. mr. ely. nothing extraordinary about it? but it certainly does seem that he did have gonorrhea at this point? captain donabedian. right. mr. ely. these medical records also contain entries relating to the gunshot wound received by oswald in connection with the . -caliber pistol he had stored in his footlocker. i believe those entries are self-explanatory. also, in filling out his own forms on physicals, oswald made reference to a mastoid operation which he had had when he was a child. this, also, i think, is something we don't have to go into at this point. doctor, i will ask you, in conclusion, if you, in looking through his medical records, have noticed anything which we have not mentioned which seems to you extraordinary--anything over and above the normal marine's complaints. captain donabedian. no; not offhand. he had a sore throat, which many boys have in the service. he had a cold. and he had one other infection, otitis media, in . mr. ely. that reference appears at page . captain donabedian. and they give him penicillin, , units, days. i see nothing else. mr. ely. in that case, doctor, we will thank you very much for helping to explain these records for us. captain donabedian. thank you. affidavit of james anthony botelho the following affidavit was executed by james anthony botelho on june , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy state of california, _county of san benito, ss_: i, james anthony botelho, west alisal street, salinas, california, being first duly sworn, depose and say: that i served in the united states marine corps from january , , to january , . i served with lee harvey oswald from about march to september , while we were both attached to marine air control squadron no. , marine corps air facility, santa ana, california. oswald once mentioned to me that he would like to go to cuba to train castro's troops because of the money he would earn. i shared a room with oswald for approximately two months prior to his discharge. he was unusual in that he generally would not speak unless spoken to, and his answers were always brief. he seldom associated with others. oswald subscribed to a newspaper printed in russian, which i believe he said was published in san francisco. it was common knowledge that oswald had taught himself to speak russian. oswald used expressions like "da" and "niet" around the squadron. some of his fellow marines kidded him by calling him "oswaldskovich". once, when i called him up "oswald", he requested in a serious vein, that i refer to him as "oswaldskovich". at times oswald referred, seemingly seriously, to "american capitalist warmongers." at times i discussed communism and russia with oswald. my impression is that although he believed in pure marxist theory, he did not believe in the way communism was practiced by the russians. i was quite surprised when i learned that oswald had gone to russia. generally, oswald's uniforms were clean but not neat; they were either unironed or sloppily ironed. as far i know, oswald seldom left the post. on one occasion he and i went to a movie in santa ana; on other occasions we walked around santa ana. although oswald did a good deal of reading, i do not remember what sort of books he read. we both enjoyed classical music. i still have some of the classical records we purchased together. i recall that he particularly enjoyed tchaikovsky's "russian war dance". oswald played chess with both me and call. oswald was not a very good chess player, although he was better than i was. it was my impression that oswald was quite intelligent. he performed his job no better and no worse than the average marine; he made no effort to obtain perfection. his superiors had to "keep after him" in order to get him to finish the job he had been assigned. this surveillance made him all the more belligerent. in my opinion, one was likely to get better results from him by treating him politely. i do not recall oswald's engaging in any fights, except for nonbelligerent recreation around the barracks. it is my impression that oswald's clearance was taken away from him; for this reason, i believe he was made company clerk at santa ana. i believe that before oswald requested his hardship discharge, the sergeant major was planning to take steps to "straighten oswald out." although oswald may have drunk at times, i never observed him to be intoxicated. i do not remember oswald's studying spanish or german nor do i recall any remarks concerning his religious beliefs. i remember oswald's having a date with a girl who spoke russian. i believe oswald liked the girl a great deal, but he was for some reason unable to get in touch with her thereafter. i have no recollection of his receiving any visitors. signed this d day of june , at san juan bautista, calif. (s) james anthony botelho, james anthony botelho. affidavit of donald peter camarata the following affidavit was executed by donald peter camarata on may , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy state of california, _county of santa cruz, ss_: i, donald peter camarata, burlingame avenue, capitola, california, being first duly sworn, depose and say: that lee harvey oswald and i were concurrently stationed at the following military installations while we were both members of the united states marine corps: keesler air force base in biloxi, mississippi; the marine air stations at el toro and santa ana, california, and possibly the naval air station at jacksonville, florida. although i served in the far east, oswald and i were not in the same unit at that time. while in the marine corps, i heard from other marines that oswald was studying russian. i personally observed that oswald had his name written in russian on one of his jackets, and played records of russian songs so loud that one could hear them outside the barracks. either en route back to the united states or subsequent to my return, i heard a rumor to the effect that oswald had been in some way responsible for the death of martin schrand. i have no personal knowledge of any such involvement. i do not remember who told me of this rumor, and am not even certain that i heard it from more than one person. oswald seldom, if ever, left the post in the company of other marines. i would not characterize oswald as an extremely unfriendly person; he simply did not often choose to be with his fellow marines off post. oswald was not particularly prone to fighting. although he apparently resented the orders of his superiors no more than does the average marine, he was more outspoken than average in his resentment. however, he generally followed such orders. although i have no firm impression of the level of oswald's intelligence, he was a man who attempted to make other people believe he was intelligent. i know from rumor that oswald received a newspaper printed in russian. i was informed by my fellow marines that one of his superiors--either the first sergeant or a lieutenant--asked oswald why he read this paper. i have no recollection of oswald's studying or speaking either spanish or german: of any remarks on his part concerning communism, russia, or cuba: of his religious beliefs: of any abnormal attitude toward women on his part; or of his receiving any visitors. oswald was nicknamed "oz". signed this th day of may, , at santa cruz, calif. (s) donald peter camarata, donald peter camarata. affidavit of peter francis connor the following affidavit was executed by peter francis connor on may , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy state of connecticut, _county of new haven, ss_: i, peter francis connor, flaum drive, west haven, connecticut, being first duly sworn, depose and say: that, while i was in the marine corps, i was stationed at atsugi, japan, with lee harvey oswald. oswald had the reputation of being a good worker. i observed that he was not personally neat. i remember that while oswald was in japan, he wore an expert rifleman's medal. i never heard oswald make any anti-american or pro-communist statements. he claimed to be named after robert e. lee, whom he characterized as the greatest man in history. although oswald engaged in several fights--one of them with a robert demurs--i have no recollection as to how good a fighter he was. oswald did not choose to associate with his fellow marines, nor did they choose to associate with him. he often responded to the orders of his superiors with insolent remarks. i have no recollection to how much oswald drank. i was of the opinion that oswald was intelligent. he read a great deal, but i do not remember what sort of books he read. oswald was nicknamed "harv." this was a shortened version of his middle name; for some reason it upset him to be called by it. i have no recollection concerning oswald's religious beliefs, his attitude toward women, or what he did off post. signed this d day of may, , at west haven, conn. (s) peter francis connor, peter francis connor. affidavit of allen d. graf the following affidavit was executed by allen d. graf on june , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy state of new york, _county of erie, ss_: i, allen d. graf, east utica street, buffalo, new york, being first duly sworn, depose and say: that i served in the united states marine corps from to . while stationed in california, i was lee harvey oswald's platoon sergeant. oswald often complained about the marine corps; he seemed to me to resent all military authority. he also seemed narrow-minded, refusing to listen to the views of others. once, at the rifle range, i had a long discussion with oswald concerning why he found it difficult to adapt to the marine corps. he explained that his mother had had a great deal of trouble during the depression and that when he was young, he had often not had enough to eat. he felt that he had been forced to accept responsibility at a premature age. he remarked that he was tired of being "kicked around." oswald never gave to me any indication of favoring communism or opposing capitalism. it was difficult to judge the level of oswald's intelligence, because he seldom stated his opinions. however, with regard to his job in the marine corps, oswald learned quickly. oswald went to a great many movies, and did not often engage in sports. it is my recollection that oswald enjoyed firing a rifle, and scored in the "high expert" range. oswald did not drink excessively, and kept his temper--if indeed he had a temper--in check. i have no recollection of oswald's studying foreign languages; of where he went when he had time off; of his reading habits or religious beliefs; or of any nicknames for him. nor do i remember his having any dates. signed this th day of june, , at buffalo, n.y. (s) allen d. graf, allen d. graf. affidavit of john rene heindel the following affidavit was executed by john rene heindel on may , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy state of louisiana, _parish of new orleans, ss_: i, john rene heindel, belleville street, new orleans, louisiana, being first duly sworn, depose and say: that i served in the united states marine corps from july , , until july , . i was stationed at atsugi, japan, with lee harvey oswald. i recall that oswald was often in trouble for failure to adhere to rules and regulations and gave the impression of disliking any kind of authority. while in the marine corps, i was often referred to as "hidell"--pronounced so as to rhyme with "rydell" rather than "fidel." this was a nickname and not merely an inadvertent mispronounciation. it is possible that oswald might have heard me being called by this name; indeed he may himself have called me "hidell." however, i have no specific recollection of his either using or hearing this name. although i generally regarded oswald as an intelligent person, i did not observe him to be particularly interested in politics or international affairs. while in japan, oswald drank a good deal, at times becoming intoxicated. he was willing to do so because he did not greatly care whether or not he got back to the post on time. oswald did not often talk back to his superiors, but was likely to complain about their orders when he was alone with his fellow marines. oswald generally went on liberty by himself; i therefore do not know what his activities off post were. i do not recall oswald's being called by any nicknames. although our marine air group was sent to formosa for a period of time, i am unable to remember oswald's being there. signed this th day of may, , at new orleans, la. (s) john rene heindel, john rene heindel. affidavit of david christie murray, jr. the following affidavit was executed by david christie murray, jr. on may , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy state of florida, _county of duval, ss_: i, david christie murray, jr., pinewood road north, jacksonville beach, florida, being first duly sworn, depose and say: that i served in the united states marine corps from approximately october, , to october, . i served with lee harvey oswald in macs- at the lighter than air station at santa anna, california. part of the time i was stationed at santa anna, i was married and therefore during that time lived off the base. while at santa anna, i served also with a marine named nelson delgado, whom i had previously known while i was stationed at parris island, south carolina. my impression is that at this time delgado was an immature person with few original thoughts. oswald did not often associate with his fellow marines. although i know of no general explanation for this, i personally stayed away from oswald because i had heard a rumor to the effect that he was homosexual. i personally observed nothing to support this rumor, and am not sure that i heard it from more than one person. oswald seldom, if ever, went out with women; this may have been one of the reasons i came to the conclusion that he might have been homosexual. oswald complained about orders given him more than the average marine did. he was a person who was never satisfied with any event or situation. he was quietly sarcastic. though he tried to be witty, in my opinion his attempts at humor failed. however, he--unlike delgado--was not a show-off; he did not seem to want to be the center of attention. i regarded oswald as quite intelligent, and, prior to the assassination of president kennedy, was of the opinion that he had received a college education. i am under the impression that he told me that he was a college graduate, but i may have come to this conclusion because he once spoke to me of going to officer candidate school. oswald was not personally neat, but he performed his job well. when i knew him, he was studying russian. he often made remarks in russian; the less intelligent members of the unit admired him for this. i do not recall oswald's making any remarks on the subject of religion. nor do i recall his drinking. although i do not remember his getting into any fights, he had a "chip on the shoulder" personality which would be likely to involve him in fights. i do not remember his studying either spanish or german. although i recall that oswald read a great deal, i do not remember what sort of books he read. he played chess a good deal, particularly with richard call. i have no recollection of his enjoying music. nor do i remember his making any trips off post, or his subscribing to a russian newspaper. most of his fellow marines called oswald "lee." i do not remember his being called "oz". signed this th day of may, , at duval county, fla. (s) david christie murray, jr., david christie murray, jr. affidavit of paul edward murphy the following affidavit was executed by paul edward murphy on may , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy state of california, _county of orange, ss_: i, paul edward murphy, south evergreen street, apartment c, santa ana, california, being first duly sworn, depose and say: that i served in the united states marine corps from june, , to september, . i was stationed at atsugi, japan, and thereafter at santa ana, california, with lee harvey oswald. the unit which was stationed at atsugi spent four to six weeks in okinawa late in . it also spent some time in the philippines, where it was at times at bases at subic bay and cubi point. another trip took it to corregidor. oswald was self-contained and withdrawn. he complained about orders he had received from superiors, but followed them. although oswald did not normally expound to me his political or ideological views, i am of the opinion that he was generally in sympathy with castro. one night in the barracks in japan, i heard a shot in an adjoining cubicle. i rushed into the cubicle to find oswald sitting on a foot locker looking at a wound in his arm. when i asked what had happened, oswald very unemotionally replied, "i believe i shot myself". oswald was at that time in possession of a small calibre pistol which he was not authorized to possess. while at santa ana, oswald had a subscription to a newspaper printed in english which i believe was titled either "the worker" or "the socialist worker." members of the unit saw copies of this paper as they passed through the mailroom; when the paper was identified as being directed to oswald, few were surprised. i do not recall oswald's receiving other literature of a socialist nature. i remember that oswald could speak a little russian, even when he was overseas. i have no recollection of his studying either spanish or german. oswald was proficient at his assigned job, but he was below average in the areas of discipline and military courtesy. he was, however, personally quite neat. although oswald drank, he did not drink excessively. his temperament was such that he would push companions to the verge of fighting him, but seldom, if ever, actually took the step of engaging in a fight. it is my opinion that oswald was of average intelligence. he read a great deal at the library at atsugi. i do not recall what sort of books he read. he also went to the movies a great deal. i have no specific recollection of his appreciation of classical music, although i remember that oswald--like everyone else--watched dick clark's american bandstand on television. oswald also played chess. i have no recollection concerning oswald's religious beliefs. i can recall oswald having no dates while stationed at santa ana. while overseas, however, oswald had an active social life as most other marines. oswald seldom left the post at santa ana; i do not know where he went on those occasions when he did leave. oswald was nicknamed "harvey" after "harvey the rabbit", a movie which was then circulating. so far as i know, oswald acquired this nickname for no reason other than that it was his middle name. i do not recall oswald's receiving any visitors. signed this th day of may, , at santa ana, calif. (s) paul edward murphy, paul edward murphy. affidavit of henry j. roussel, jr. the following affidavit was executed by henry j. roussel, jr., on may , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy state of louisiana, _parish of baton rouge, ss_: i, henry j. roussel, jr., elissalde street, baton rouge, louisiana, being first duly sworn, depose and say: that while in the united states marine corps i served for approximately three or four months with lee harvey oswald in macs- in santa ana, california. on one occasion i arranged a date for oswald with my aunt, rosaleen quinn, an airline stewardess who, because she was interested in working for the american embassy in russia, had taken a leave from her job in order to study russian. i arranged the date because i knew of oswald's study of the russian language. i also arranged a date for my aunt with lieutenant john e. donovan. i am under the impression that prior to studying russian, oswald had studied german. i recall no serious political remarks on the part of oswald. on occasion, however, oswald, when addressing other marines, would refer to them as "comrade." it seemed to me--and, as far as i know, to my fellow marines--that oswald used this term in fun. at times some of us responded by calling _him_ "comrade." oswald also enjoyed listening to recordings of russian songs. my recollection of oswald is to the effect that he was personally quite neat, and that he stayed to himself. oswald complained about orders that he was given, but no more than did the average marine. i regarded oswald as quite intelligent, in view of the fact that he had taught himself two foreign languages. i do not recall oswald's having any dates other than the one which i arranged for him with my aunt. i do not remember oswald's getting into any fights. i have no recollection concerning oswald's reading habits, religious beliefs, or trips off the post. i do not remember his reading a russian newspaper, and do not recall his having any nicknames. (i was nicknamed "beezer.") i do not remember oswald's having his name written in russian on his jacket, and have no recollection of any visitors received by oswald. signed this th day of may, , at baton rouge, la. (s) henry j. roussel, jr., henry j. roussel, jr. affidavit of mack osborne the following affidavit was executed by mack osborne on may , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy state of texas _county of lubbock, ss_: i, mack osborne, rd street, lubbock, texas, being first duly sworn, depose and say: that while i was in the united states marine corps, i served in marine air control squadron in santa ana, california, with lee harvey oswald. prior to his discharge, i shared a room with him. oswald was at that time studying russian. he spent a great deal of his free time reading papers printed in russian--which i believe he bought in los angeles--with the aid of a russian-english dictionary. i believe he also had some books written in russian, although i do not remember their names. i once asked oswald why he did not go out in the evening like the other men. he replied that he was saving his money, making some statement to the effect that one day he would do something which would make him famous. in retrospect, it is my belief--although he said nothing to this effect--that he had his trip to russia in mind when he made this statement. although oswald did not directly talk back to his superiors, he did the tasks assigned him poorly and complained about them to his fellow marines. my recollection is that oswald was a radar operator of average ability. although he was personally clean, he scored quite poorly on barracks inspections. although oswald was not openly hostile to his fellow marines, when they asked him to participate in their activities, he would refuse, stating that he had something else to do. he thereby encouraged others to leave him alone. oswald drank only in clubs located on the post. he explained to me that he did not drink off the post because while stationed in japan, he had been court-martialed for hitting a sergeant with a beer bottle. i do not recall his having any fights while at santa ana. however, i remember oswald's telling me of a fight with a brig guard, as well as of the fight with the sergeant, in japan. i do not recall oswald's studying either spanish or german. i do not recall any remarks on his part concerning communism, russia, or cuba. because of the fact that he was studying russian, fellow marines sometimes jokingly accused him of being a russian spy. in my opinion he took such accusations in fun. although i did not regard oswald as particularly intelligent, i got the idea that he thought he was intelligent and tried verbally to suggest to others that he was. oswald read a great deal, although i do not remember what sort of books he read. he also watched television and played chess. i have no recollection of any interest in music on his part. although he would discuss religion with others, he was noncommital as to his own opinions. oswald seldom, if ever, went out with women. i suspect that this was part of his program on saving money. he seldom left the post, although sometimes when i returned from weekends, he would tell me that he had been to los angeles--implying that he had simply gone to break the monotony. i do not recall oswald's having any nicknames. he was simply called "oswald" or--by those who knew him well--"lee harvey". i have no recollection of oswald's receiving any visitors. signed this th day of may, , at lubbock, tex. (s) mack osborne, mack osborne. affidavit of richard dennis call the following affidavit was executed by richard dennis call on may , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy state of pennsylvania _county of northampton, ss_: i, richard dennis call, r. d. , hellertown, pennsylvania, being first duly sworn, depose and say: that i served in the united states marine corps from september, , to december, . from december, , to december, , i was stationed with marine air control squadron # , lighter than air station, santa ana, california. during this time i made the acquaintance of lee harvey oswald. i lived in the ensign hut next to, and was on the same radar crew as, oswald. i estimate that i talked to some extent with oswald each day during the period that we were stationed together. it was very difficult to evaluate oswald's personality because he never talked about his life prior to joining the marine corps or about what he did while in the marine corps. although by the usual standards i was just an acquaintance of oswald, i probably was one of his best friends. oswald once dated an airline stewardess who was learning russian. oswald spent a great deal of time reading. i do not remember what he read, because he never talked about it. he also spent a great deal of time playing chess. i played chess with him about once a week; we were of approximately equal ability. although members of the unit often had discussions on foreign affairs, oswald seldom, if ever, participated. during this time, oswald was studying russian. for this reason many members of the unit kidded him about being a russian spy; oswald seemed to enjoy this sort of remark. at that time i had a phonograph record of russian classical pieces entitled "russian fireworks." when i would play this record, oswald would come over to me and say "you called?" i had a chess set which contained red and white chessmen; oswald always chose the red chessmen, making some remark to the effect that he preferred the "red army." in connection with this general joking about oswald's interest in russian, he was nicknamed "oswaldskovich." however, i do not recall oswald's making serious remarks with regard to the soviet union or cuba. on one occasion, oswald remarked to me that he had been awarded a scholarship to albert schweitzer university and that he planned to attend, remarking that they taught english at schweitzer. i believe oswald generally remained on the post; i do not remember anyone's going on liberty with him. sometimes he and i went to the base movie theatre. oswald was not enthusiastic about his job, and performed about as well as the average radar operator. although i sometimes observed oswald drinking in the enlisted men's club, i do not remember his ever becoming intoxicated. oswald complained about the orders he was given, but no more than did the average marine. however, it was my opinion that the staff non-commissioned officers did not think of oswald as capable. in my opinion, this attitude was a result of the fact that oswald did not try to hide his lack of enthusiasm. i have no recollection of oswald's studying either spanish or german. it was difficult to tell how intelligent oswald was, because of his refusal to communicate. it was clear, however, that oswald _wanted_ to be thought of as intelligent. nelson delgado was at this time devoutly religious. another marine from california, who at that time was interested in zen buddhism, had an idol of buddha solely for the purpose of making delgado angry. he succeeded in this attempt. oswald enjoyed this successful attempt to anger delgado. oswald's reactions to everything were subdued and stoic. oswald's hardship discharge came as a surprise to the members of the unit; we had not known of it long in advance. i have no recollection of oswald's receiving any visitors. signed this th day of may, , at helltown, pa. (s) richard dennis call, richard dennis call. affidavit of erwin donald lewis the following affidavit was executed by erwin donald lewis on june , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy state of california _orange county, ss_: i, erwin donald lewis, mystic lane, anaheim, california, being first duly sworn, depose and say: that while i was in the united states marine corps, i served in marine air control squadron # in santa ana, california, with lee harvey oswald. i knew him only casually as a working acquaintance. oswald, a radar operator, was very quiet, kept to himself, and did not appear to have any close friends. to the best of my knowledge, he seldom left the base. it was a matter of common knowledge among squadron members that he could read, write, and speak russian. i know from personal observation that he read the "daily worker." i heard--although of this i am not completely certain--that he had a subscription to that publication. signed this th day of june, . (s) erwin donald lewis, erwin donald lewis. testimony of martin isaacs the testimony of martin isaacs was taken on april , , at the u.s. courthouse, foley square, new york, n.y. by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. martin isaacs, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: mr. liebeler. my name is wesley j. liebeler. i am an attorney on the legal staff of the president's commission investigating the assassination of president kennedy. staff members have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the commission pursuant to authority granted to the commission by executive order no. , dated november , , and joint resolution of congress no. . the commission has also established rules of procedure governing the taking of testimony from witnesses, and under those rules of procedure each witness is to be furnished with a copy of the executive order and joint resolution to which i referred, as well as with a copy of the rules governing the taking of testimony. the commission will provide you with a set of those documents. under the rules governing the taking of testimony, each witness is entitled to days' notice before he is required to appear and give testimony. i don't know whether you actually received days' notice or not, but---- mr. isaacs. they told me yesterday about it. it's quite all right. mr. liebeler. each witness is able to waive that notice, and i presume that you do wish to waive it. mr. isaacs. i waive, yes. mr. liebeler. thank you, sir. we want to inquire briefly of you today concerning any contacts which you or your office may have had with lee harvey oswald and his family upon oswald's return from russia in approximately june of . before we get into the details of that testimony, however, would you state your full name for the record? mr. isaacs. martin isaacs. mr. liebeler. where do you live, sir? mr. isaacs. grand avenue, bronx, new york. mr. liebeler. where are you employed at the present time? mr. isaacs. i am employed by the special services welfare center, department of welfare, city of new york, franklin street. mr. liebeler. were you so employed in june of ? mr. isaacs. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. when and where were you born, mr. isaacs? mr. isaacs. i was born in hungary, december , . mr. liebeler. when did you come to the united states? mr. isaacs. i was about or years old. i don't recall exactly. mr. liebeler. are you presently a citizen of this country? mr. isaacs. i am a citizen, yes; derivative citizenship. mr. liebeler. your parents? mr. isaacs. my father became a citizen, and, of course, i received derivative citizenship. mr. liebeler. how long have you employed by the department of welfare? mr. isaacs. since may , . mr. liebeler. and this is the department of welfare of the city of new york; is that correct? mr. isaacs. that is right. mr. liebeler. do you recall personally coming into contact with lee harvey oswald and his family? mr. isaacs. i do recall coming into personal contact; yes, sir. mr. liebeler. would you give us the best recollection that you have concerning that event? mr. isaacs. i was told by our intake, i believe it was, that the family was in the welfare center. if i recollect correctly, i think the travelers aid society sent them here. i am not positive about this. my worker, mr. lehrman, as i remember, was not available at the time to go in and see the family. i believe he was in the field at the time. he is a social investigator in the department of welfare. i went in to ascertain whether i could expedite getting the information that would be needed to help this family return to texas. mr. liebeler. you had been informed at that time that they desired to return to texas? mr. isaacs. yes; the intake worker, i can't remember who it was at the moment--i am sorry, i don't remember the name of the worker who handled the family inside of our intake--told us that this family was in the office, and i think we obtained sufficient information at the time to make a clearance to determine whether the family is actually a repatriated family. in many instances people come to us and tell us that they were repatriated when in effect they weren't. they are, in other words, sent here incorrectly to our office. when we clear, we find out that they are not repatriates, and so they must be handled in a different manner. mr. liebeler. when you say "repatriates," what do you mean, sir? mr. isaacs. a repatriate is one who is a united states citizen, who was living abroad and finds himself, either because of economic circumstances or because of ill health unable to maintain himself there, and so they go--either they go directly to our embassy in the country in which they reside or they are directed to go there or the embassy learns about this from the government in which they live, and so they are helped to return to the united states. in some instances they ask to be returned. in other instances they are ordered to be returned. for example, if the person is mentally ill. in this case we did clear, and we ascertained that they were repatriates, and so the role that i played in this as i remember--using my memory here---- mr. liebeler. let me ask you this, if i may, mr. isaacs, before you go into that. mr. isaacs. yes. mr. liebeler. do you remember how you determined that the oswald family was a repatriated family? mr. isaacs. yes. this is the way it was done: we get the information from the family. in this instance i think it was done by the intake worker. he got certain facts. i assume that mr. oswald gave them all these facts, that he went to russia in a certain period of his life, and what happened there, and then when he returned and why he returned. when we get all this data, we present that to our administrator, mrs. ruscoll, and she contacts the new york state department of social welfare, who is the immediate representative, to determine these facts. the person that she would call is a miss elliott, miss lula jean elliott. mr. liebeler. she is with the new york state department---- mr. isaacs. the department of social welfare. then miss elliott called the u.s. department of health, education, and welfare, and, of course, we understand that this is the means they used to get the information, and they call washington, and when they have this information it is relayed back in the same way. and then the administrator tells us, yes, he is a repatriate. and in this instance, this is what actually happened, as i remember it. we were told that they were. now, we have a policy of calling whatever relatives are available to determine whether relatives could meet the cost of their return. in this instance he asked to be returned to texas, and we did get enough information in our application blank to show that there was a brother--i believe it was robert--who lived in texas, and i made a telephone call to the brother. the brother was not in, and i spoke with his wife--i don't remember her first name--and i told her that mr. oswald was here with his wife and infant, and they wanted to return to texas, and would they be able to raise sufficient funds to meet this cost. she was very happy, apparently, to learn that they had arrived already--evidently they had some advance notice--and she immediately said she will call her husband and make arrangements to send this money--i don't remember the amount that was involved. mr. liebeler. was oswald present at the time you made this telephone call? mr. isaacs. no, no. i make that call in my own office. we never make it in their presence. now, when i got this information, and she told me--her name was also oswald, mrs. robert oswald, we will say--she told me that this money would be sent. i went in, and this was the first contact that i had with mr. oswald. i--excuse me---- mr. liebeler. you first called the home of robert oswald in texas and spoke to his wife? mr. isaacs. that's right. mr. liebeler. and she told you that she would call her husband and find out if they could make the money available? did she then call you back? mr. isaacs. i can't remember whether it was just that way. i'm uncertain about that. i'm sorry about that. i think that she said, "i will call him and send the money." i'm not positive, but i think that's the way it happened, because i don't remember her calling me back. in any event, i gave her all the information, gave her my name. we always, in this kind of thing, because when the money comes in, they don't know to whom to direct the money. so i gave her my name and told her to send the money attention martin isaacs. when i went in and told the oswalds about this--mrs. oswald, of course, cannot speak english--at that time. mr. liebeler. did you try to speak to her? mr. isaacs. i tried to speak to her, but she couldn't speak a single word. and he told me that she can't speak any english. but when i told him that i contacted his sister-in-law, he was quite angered, he was really very upset, and told us, told me that he did not want to accept this money, that this was a brother who did not have a large income, and that we should meet this cost ourselves. and i told him what our policy was, that in all instances we are required by law to request that relatives or friends, if there are such friends available, meet these expenses, if they can. now, in this instance, his sister-in-law said that she would send the money, so we would have to accept this. he did not want to accept our decision on this. he insisted that he see the administrator of our office, because he wanted to protest my having made this phone call and asking for the money. mr. liebeler. you had done this without telling him---- mr. isaacs. that's right. mr. liebeler. that you were going to do it? mr. isaacs. we as a rule do not have to ask these people. what we can do in some instances is to find out what the occupation of the relative is, which i think we got in our intake interview. you see, i'm not positive about this, again, because i think that the worker got his--the brother's name and address, whatever other information they usually get about relatives. anyhow, to expedite matters, we always do it just this way. this is not anything unusual with us. we call, and if we are lucky, and somebody--someone tells us that they can send the money, we use these funds to meet the transportation expenses to the place they are requesting to return to. let's see--you want me--excuse me. did you want me to continue? mr. liebeler. yes; please go right ahead and tell us. mr. isaacs. because he protested so vehemently, i went to the administrator, or mrs. ruscoll, the administrator, and asked her what we were to do about this matter, and she decided to interview mr. oswald herself. i do know that mrs. ruscoll spent considerable time with mr. oswald, although i don't know just what had transpired between them. mr. liebeler. you were not present during that conference? mr. isaacs. i was not present, yes, sir; during her interview with him. later, however, she informed me that she telephoned miss elliott of the new york state department of social welfare, who instructed mrs. ruscoll to use these funds despite his protestations, which we proceeded to do, and mrs. ruscoll then notified him personally that these funds have to be used for the family's return fare. mr. liebeler. you did not have the final conversation with oswald on that subject yourself? mr. isaacs. i had no conversation with him--my conversation with him was quite brief. my conversation consisted of just telling him that we were using these funds. it was a most brief conversation, as i remember it. mr. liebeler. now, did you have any other contact with oswald after mrs. ruscoll told him that these funds had to be used? mr. isaacs. i don't believe i did have any. i can't remember. what i did, i think, was to instruct the investigator to take him to some hotel downtown that he would have to stay at until arrangements could be made for his return the next day. mr. liebeler. so oswald then, as far as you know, stayed in new york overnight that night? mr. isaacs. as far as i know, that is what happened, and i think that the investigator was instructed to get him out the next morning, i believe it was. incidentally, mr. liebeler, we did not have to spend any money on him at all. he had some money on him when he arrived here. i don't remember exactly how much he had, but he said that he could meet the expense at the hotel, as i recall it. mr. liebeler. did you yourself prepare any reports on the oswald case, mr. isaacs, as best you can recall? mr. isaacs. when you say "reports," i would like you to be specific. mr. liebeler. did you dictate a memorandum? mr. isaacs. yes. my telephone conversation with his sister-in-law i believe was dictated in there. i don't remember now whether i indicated or not that he would not not accept our decision. i might have put that in there to point up the fact that i reported this to the administrator. mr. liebeler. do you remember whether you had this difficulty with lee oswald immediately after you called texas, or could it have been on the next day, do you remember? mr. isaacs. i don't remember if there was a next day. i can't recall that at all, sir. mr. liebeler. the best of your recollection is that you saw him just on one day? mr. isaacs. yes. i don't remember whether there was any other time that i saw him. i think he was in the office that one time. mr. liebeler. what is the address of your office? mr. isaacs. franklin street. mr. liebeler. and that is where mr. oswald came in at that time; is that correct? mr. isaacs. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. do you know whether lee oswald had talked to his brother, robert, about this money that robert was going to send to new york? mr. isaacs. i don't recall whether he--not in my presence. mr. liebeler. and to the best of your recollection, you did not learn from any other source that he had talked to robert oswald about it; is that correct? mr. isaacs. that is right, i think that is correct, sir. mr. liebeler. did you have any conversation with oswald as to his return from russia? mr. isaacs. i don't recall having such a conversation with him. mr. liebeler. do you recall being interviewed by the fbi in connection with this matter? mr. isaacs. oh, yes, sir; i do. mr. liebeler. i have a report of an fbi interview that indicates that you had told the fbi agent that you received the impression that oswald had had difficulty in leaving russia, but you recalled a statement by oswald to the effect that he "caused so much trouble in russia that they had to send me back home." do you remember saying anything like that to the fbi agent? mr. isaacs. i don't recall saying anything like that. of course, this is what the intake worker had said, and this is what was circulated around in the office, but i don't recall having--i did not speak with oswald, and i don't recall having gotten this from him myself. mr. liebeler. had you heard statements in the office to the effect that oswald had said that? mr. isaacs. yes; that's right. mr. liebeler. you understood that oswald had made a statement such as this to the intake worker when he came into the office? mr. isaacs. probably he made that statement to the intake worker; yes, sir. mr. liebeler. had you heard in the office that he had made that statement to the intake worker, or was it just conversation in the office, that oswald---- mr. isaacs. i think it was conversation, rather than anything else, as i remember it. mr. liebeler. we have obtained a file from the new york city department of welfare which contains certain documents relating to the oswald case, and i would like to mark as exhibit no. on the deposition of martin isaacs, april , , at new york, n.y., a document entitled "history sheet," consisting of eight pages, fastened together with a clip. i have initialed the first page of this exhibit, mr. isaacs, and i would like to have you initial it next to my initials, if you would, so that we have no confusion as to the identification of this document. mr. isaacs. sure. (document entitled "history sheet," consisting of eight pages, marked exhibit .) mr. liebeler. this is, is it not, a document which was taken from the files provided by the new york city welfare department? mr. isaacs. this is, sir. mr. liebeler. do you recognize it as a type of report that is prepared at a time when a client appears in your office? mr. isaacs. i do. mr. liebeler. do you recognize it as the history sheet relating to lee oswald? mr. isaacs. i do. mr. liebeler. i show you a single sheet which is entitled "resource summary" and ask you if you recognize that as a form that is usually filled out by an applicant. mr. isaacs. i do recognize this as a form that we use in the department. mr. liebeler. that particular form here appears to be a carbon, does it not? mr. isaacs. what happens is that the original goes to the resource consultant. we have a special section of the department of welfare that receives these forms, and if it has any material on there that warrants further investigation the resource section conducts the investigation, but in this instance, as you will note, they said no resources in each place in the form, and we just filed this in our record. mr. liebeler. the original of that would have been filed in the records of the resource consultant; is that right? mr. isaacs. i believe so, sir. mr. liebeler. i will mark the single sheet entitled "resource summary" as exhibit no. on the deposition of mr. martin isaacs, april , , in new york, n.y. i have initialed that document also, mr. isaacs, and ask that you initial it for the purposes of identification. mr. isaacs. yes, sir. (document entitled "resource summary" marked exhibit .) mr. liebeler. do you recognize that particular resource sheet as the resource sheet that was filled out in connection with the lee oswald case? mr. isaacs. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. i have marked as exhibit no. on the deposition of mr. martin isaacs, april , , in new york, n.y., a memorandum from lula jean elliott, senior welfare consultant, to mrs. ruscoll, supervisor of the special services welfare center, dated june , , relating to the repatriation from the u.s.s.r. of oswald, lee, and family, consisting of wife and months' infant. i have initialed the memorandum to which i have just referred and request that you do the same for the purposes of identification, down at the bottom. (witness complies.) mr. liebeler. do you recognize this as memorandum from miss elliott? mr. isaacs. lula jean elliott. mr. liebeler. to mrs. ruscoll? mr. isaacs. yes. mr. liebeler. that memorandum came from the files of the new york state department of welfare in connection with the oswald case? you recognize that, do you not? mr. isaacs. i do, sir. mr. liebeler. do you have any recollection of any other event that you yourself personally experienced with oswald during this short contact that you had with him that you haven't told us about? mr. isaacs. there was nothing else that i could remember that was different from what i had told you. it was just this flare-up with him, which was somewhat dramatic, and because it was i thought it merited bringing it to the attention of the administrator. we don't always request that an administrator get in on a situation with us, because she's not always available, and she as a rule does not want to get involved. but in this particular case because it was a repatriate, and we do deal with repatriates in a somewhat different manner--the federal government is involved, because they reimburse us percent for all expenses--we did deem it necessary in this particular instance to bring it to the attention of the administrator. but to answer your original question, there was nothing else that i can recall. i remember, just as they were leaving the office, walking in that direction to just see that they were going down the elevator--we assigned a worker--it wasn't mr. lehrman, as i remember; it was some other worker--to just go with them to the hotel and help them along with their luggage, et cetera. the only other thing that i can remember was the administrator taking his wife into the office--the clients very rarely go into the interior of the office--and bringing her back toward her office. it's an office that's over a block long--or a block long--and later i learned that she brought her there because mrs. oswald wanted to breastfeed the child and---- mr. liebeler. so the administrator took her back into the office? to feed the child? mr. isaacs. yes; to feed the child. mr. liebeler. what prompted you to call this case to the attention of the administrator? was it, as you have indicated, simply that it was a repatriation case, or was it because of some peculiarity in the behavior of this individual, or was it a combination of those? mr. isaacs. well, i would say it was a combination. he was rather severe in his manner--for want of a better description at this time. he was insistent. he stomped around and simply would not accept the decision that this money would be forthcoming. and as a rule we don't get this kind of reaction from the clients that we deal with. they accept this kind of service that they get from us, and in fact they are very happy to receive it, and they are very grateful. in this case we had a different kind of attitude. it was one of resentment, and we couldn't, at least on my level i felt i couldn't insist that he take it until--rather accept the decision until i cleared with the administrator. now, even mrs. ruscoll found it necessary because of his--i assume because of the discussion that she had with him, she found it necessary to call miss elliott, and miss elliott did, of course, supervise our section, and her decision was to be final, and this is the decision we used. mr. liebeler. do you have any other information in respect of this incident or in respect of oswald generally that you can think of at this time that you think might be helpful in connection with this report? mr. isaacs. well, i don't have any other information. all i can say is that when this incident occurred, it did not cross our mind that the--the name oswald meant nothing to us. it did not cross our minds that this was the person, and when we were looking at this on tv and just hearing the story without actually getting a visual picture of lee oswald it still didn't register with us. it was after i had seen the picture on the screen and was horrified--well, we were horrified without having seen that, but the additional horror because it was somebody that you had actually met and helped to return to texas. at that point i called mrs. ruscoll and asked her if she knew who this lee oswald was. she said she was calling miss bloomfield, who is her--the field supervisor, and they said that--mrs. ruscoll said that she's pretty certain that this is the person that we had met and helped to return to texas, and it was that--i think it was that telephone conversation that was responsible for her having the case record pulled the very next morning by our central office. miss bloomfield works out of central office, and she--the case was no longer there, and she gave it to the commissioner, as i remember it, and, of course, then i read it in the newspaper that the commissioner had given this record to the fbi. now, beyond that, i really--i wish i could be more helpful, but i am sorry to say that this is all i know about the case. mr. liebeler. you have been very helpful, mr. isaacs. on behalf of the commission i want to thank you very much for coming in this afternoon and giving us the testimony and producing the records that you have. it is another example of the way in which the city of new york has cooperated with the commission and with the fbi in its work. we appreciate it very much. isaacs. we are only too happy to help. testimony of pauline virginia bates the testimony of pauline virginia bates was taken at : p.m., on march , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. albert e. jenner, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. jenner. mrs. bates, will you stand and be sworn, please? do you solemnly swear in your testimony which you are about to give, to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mrs. bates. i do. mr. jenner. it's mrs. bates, is it not? mrs. bates. it's miss. i'm not married. it's optional--i have been. my name is pauline. mr. jenner. pauline virginia--isn't it? mrs. bates. yes. mr. jenner. this is pauline virginia bates. mrs. bates, i am albert e. jenner, jr. i am a member of the legal staff for the presidential assassination commission and have been authorized by the commission to depose you--take your deposition, make inquiries of you with respect to the subject matter of the inquiry of the commission. did you receive, oh, last week, i would think, a letter from j. lee rankin, general counsel for the commission? mrs. bates. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and enclosed with that letter is a copy of the executive order of president lyndon b. johnson on november , , number , and a copy of the senate joint resolution, number , authorizing the creation of the commission, together with a copy of the rules of procedure of the commission? mrs. bates. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and, mrs. bates, you appear voluntarily at our request? mrs. bates. yes, sir. mr. jenner. the commission, as you have noted from those enclosed papers, has been ordered, directed to inquire into all facts and circumstances surrounding, leading up to, and those appearing after the assassination of john f. kennedy, the president of the united states, and any contacts on your part with any of the parties. we understand that you, during his lifetime, had some contact with lee harvey oswald and i think, in fact, transcribed some manuscript notes of his? mrs. bates. they weren't transcribed; they were copied. mr. jenner. you copied them? mrs. bates. uh-huh. mr. jenner. well, i meant transcribed in that sense. you transcribed them from longhand into typing? mrs. bates. well, some of them were typewritten, some of them were written in longhand pencil, some of it was written in pen. mr. jenner. oh, is that so. mrs. bates. it was scraps of paper. some of it was on just like bag paper. some of it was just little scraps of paper--whatever he could find. mr. jenner. where do you reside now? mrs. bates. in fort worth. mr. jenner. and how long have you resided in fort worth? mrs. bates. ten years last november. mr. jenner. what is your business, occupation, or profession? mrs. bates. i'm a legal public stenographer. mr. jenner. and how long have you been a legal public stenographer? mrs. bates. in fort worth, years--a little over years. mr. jenner. and is there a difference between being a legal public stenographer and a public stenographer? mrs. bates. well, i think so. i think i'm the only one in fort worth that has legal training. mr. jenner. that's what i wish to bring out. you are a public stenographer and you seek to direct your talents primarily toward law work? mrs. bates. yes. mr. jenner. lawyers, court reporting, and that sort of thing? mrs. bates. uh-huh--well, i haven't done any court reporting. i have done work for court reporters--transcribe for them, and things like that. mr. jenner. are you a citizen of the united states? mrs. bates. yes, sir. mr. jenner. you are a native born american? mrs. bates. yes, sir--forest grove, oreg. mr. jenner. how long have you resided in the fort worth-dallas area? mrs. bates. ten years last november. mr. jenner. and you came from where? mrs. bates. oakland, calif. mr. jenner. and what was your business or occupation when you were in oakland, calif.? mrs. bates. legal stenographer--legal secretary. mr. jenner. that has always been your--insofar as you have had a business or occupation--it's been that? mrs. bates. except during the war when i worked in the shipyards. mr. jenner. out on the coast? mrs. bates. richmond. i have also been a waitress. mr. jenner. mrs. bates, if anything seems personal to you, it's not intended as being personal. i'm trying to set the background. and you are at liberty at any time to say to me that you think maybe i'm going too far. mrs. bates. i don't have anything to hide. mr. jenner. all right. i'm sure you don't. during the time you lived in the fort worth-dallas area, did you have occasion to come in contact with a person known as lee harvey oswald? mrs. bates. he was known to me as lee oswald. mr. jenner. all right. with a person known as lee oswald? and, just so we understand each other, is the person you knew as lee oswald and the person i just called lee harvey oswald the person that you understand to be the man who was accused of the assassination of president kennedy? mrs. bates. yes. he was one and the same person. i recognized him. mr. jenner. yes. now, tell me the circumstances under which that acquaintanceship arose. mrs. bates. he walked into my office one day, said he had gotten my name out of the telephone directory. it so happens it's the first one in the public stenographers. mr. jenner. and how was he attired on that occasion? mrs. bates. he had dark trousers on, a white t-shirt and a blazer-type jacket--a dark blazer-type jacket. mr. jenner. and since he had the t-shirt, he had no tie on? mrs. bates. no; didn't have a shirt on. mr. jenner. no shirt? mrs. bates. just a little white t-shirt--undershirt. mr. jenner. yes. mrs. bates. it was in june. mr. jenner. in june? what time of the day or night was it? mrs. bates. it was in the morning. let's see--i turned those records over to the fbi. mr. jenner. well, give me your best recollection. mrs. bates. i think it was around or o'clock in the morning, on the th of june . mr. jenner. all right. what was said by him and by you? mrs. bates. he asked if i could do some typing for him. mr. jenner. did he identify himself first? mrs. bates. no. he just walked in. it's not uncommon for people to walk in and say, "miss bates, can you do some typing for me?" and i said, "yes, i could, what was it?" and he said it was--that he was--then, he told me he was lee oswald. he said, "first, i want to find out what your prices are and see if i can afford it." so, i gave him my price. mr. jenner. and what did you say? mrs. bates. i said it was either - / an hour or a dollar a page. mr. jenner. a page being - / by --letter-size sheets? mrs. bates. yes; uh-huh. and i told him it all depended on what the work was and could i see what it was. and he said, "yes." and he brought out this large manilla envelope, legal size--oh, i think it was by or something--one of those large ones. and he said, "i have some notes here"---- mr. jenner. i have a folder here [showing to witness]--is that---- mrs. bates. no; it's one of those that folds over from the top. mr. jenner. i appreciate that--but i'm holding this up only for size. mrs. bates. oh! well, it's approximately that long, but it was a little wider. mr. jenner. the length of this, i think [measuring with ruler]--it's inches. mrs. bates. well, i have some up at my office. i use them all the time to, you know, send abstracts out in. mr. jenner. that's by . mrs. bates. well, i am sure, as i remember it--of course, now, this was some time ago--it was approximately by or by --and it looks like what i use. mr. jenner. and it had a flap on it? mrs. bates. uh-huh. just a regular seal at the top. i think they are carrollton clasp or something like that. he said that he had notes that he had smuggled out of russia. and i looked up at him kinda surprised. i said, "have you been to russia?" he said, "yes, ma'am. i just got back." and that he had smuggled these notes out of russia under his clothes, next to his skin. mr. jenner. we fixed the time of this inquiry--didn't we? mrs. bates. yes; june . i mean, when he first came in my office. mr. jenner. ? mrs. bates. uh-huh. and that he wanted to have them typed by a professional typist. he said, "some of them are typed on a little portable, some of 'em are handwritten in ink, some of 'em in pencil." he said, "i'll have to sit right here with you and help you with 'em because some of 'em are in russian and some of them are in english." so, we agreed that i would do it--but i hadn't seen them yet. mr. jenner. you hadn't seen the notes yet? mrs. bates. huh-uh. mr. jenner. did he have a package under his arm on that occasion? mrs. bates. yes. he had it with him. mr. jenner. what agreement--you mean that you agreed that you would do it? had you reached a conclusion as to the rate? mrs. bates. well, i immediately lowered it to $ an hour. i was anxious to get on it. mr. jenner. why did you become anxious to get on it? mrs. bates. well, anybody that had just come back from russia and had notes, i would like to have seen them. and he didn't look like he had--he looked like a high school kid to me when he first came in. i thought he was just a kid. mr. jenner. uh-huh. mrs. bates. and i do a lot of thesis work for college and high school students. and then i started asking him some questions--"why did you go to russia?"--and a few things like that. some of 'em he'd answer and some of em he wouldn't. mr. jenner. now, give me your best recollection of everything that was said on that occasion. mrs. bates. well, i'm trying to get it in sequence. mr. jenner. okay. mrs. bates. we agreed that i would start typing the notes--and he wanted an original and one carbon. but he would take the carbon--he wanted the original and one carbon and also take the carbon with him. mr. jenner. he didn't want to leave---- mrs. bates. i couldn't keep a copy of anything. mr. jenner. did you agree that you would do the job under those circumstances? mrs. bates. that's what he wanted--and my customers are always right. mr. jenner. uh-huh. mrs. bates. then, i asked him how come he had gone to russia. i said, "it can't be very easy. how did you arrange it? why did you want to go?" and he said he had just gotten--he had gotten out of the marine corps and had taken elementary russian--a course in elementary russian. mr. jenner. where? mrs. bates. while he was in the marine corps, as i understood him. he wasn't very talkative. and whenever i did get him to talk, i had to drag it out of him. he didn't talk voluntarily. mr. jenner. uh-huh. mrs. bates. and that he had wanted to travel and so he applied to the state department for a visa. and i asked him if he was an exchange student--if he went over as an exchange student. sometimes--i didn't know. i was kinda ignorant about things like that. he said, "no"--that the state department finally agreed to let him go over, but they would not be responsible for him; he was granted a visa to go over there but the state department refused to stand behind him in case he got in trouble or anything. so, he went. and that's all i got out of him, then, about that. and then we got busy and he opened this large package and he brought out the notes. and, as i said, they were on scraps of paper not even this big, some of them [indicating with finger], and some of them large pieces of paper, some of them were typed, some of them handwritten in ink and pencil. and he said that he had had to just do it when he could. and it was about the living conditions and the working conditions in russia. and they were very bitter against russia. mr. jenner. his writings were bitter against working conditions? mrs. bates. and living conditions. yes. mr. jenner. did he say when he had prepared these notes? mrs. bates. just whenever he could. mr. jenner. when in russia? mrs. bates. yeah. oh, they were all done in russia. and he smuggled them out of russia. and he said that the whole time until they got over the border, they were scared to death they would be found, and, of course, they would not be allowed to leave russia. mr. jenner. did he imply that marina was aware that he had these notes? mrs. bates. he didn't say. he just mentioned his wife once or twice in the days he was up there. and, at the time---- mr. jenner. were these successive days? mrs. bates. uh-huh; th, th, and th. mr. jenner. did he spend substantially all day with you? mrs. bates. no; it was hours altogether in the days. mr. jenner. that was hours that you worked, or hours that he was there? mrs. bates. i worked. and--uh--i spent hours typing pages, single-spaced. mr. jenner. which would indicate to me, as a lawyer, that you were having some trouble interpreting these notes? mrs. bates. oh, he'd--he had to spell things out for me and--uh--it was partly in russian. and he had to transpose it--i mean, translate it for me. and--uh--it was--uh--very difficult to read. a lot of it was scribbled. he would scribble notes and, then, to refresh his memory on it--he said he had to do it surreptitiously [witness pronounced word phonetically _surreptiously_], he just had to do it when marina would cover for him while he was doing this. mr. jenner. marina would cover for him? mrs. bates. uh-huh--muffle the tone of the typewriter and everything so people wouldn't know that he was--what he was doing. mr. jenner. and marina was aware, then, according to what he said to you, that he was making these notes? mrs. bates. well, evidently--because he said she would cover or watch for him so that nobody would know that he was making them. mr. jenner. uh-huh. mrs. bates. kind of--try to steer anybody away while he was doing this--because he could have got in trouble. mr. jenner. uh-huh. mrs. bates. he didn't talk very much. he--well, there wasn't much time to talk when you're typing and trying to translate things like that. and he was very cool and---- mr. jenner. cool? you mean reserved? mrs. bates. cold. mr. jenner. cold? mrs. bates. yes. mr. jenner. very matter of fact? mrs. bates. yes; and if he didn't want to answer a question--if you asked him a question, no matter how simple it was, if he didn't want to answer it, he'd just shut up. mr. jenner. he'd just ignore you? mrs. bates. uh-huh. he said he was living with his brother out in arlington heights. well, i lived in arlington heights, and i recognized the area he lived in by the telephone number. i said, "well, where do you live, lee? i have lived out in that part of town." he said, "arlington heights." so--that's--that just closed the subject right there. he had nothing else to say. in other words--"just don't say anything more." and--uh--i didn't even know he had a mother. he never mentioned his mother. he mentioned his brother; he mentioned his wife--said she liked it over here very much, that she got very ill from the food because it was too rich. mr. jenner. he said that she had become ill? mrs. bates. uh-huh. that she got the stomach ache, or something, because they hadn't had enough food in a long time. mr. jenner. your impression was that they---- mrs. bates. he hadn't even been here a month, i don't think, when---- mr. jenner. well, he arrived june --so, he was only--when he reached your place, it was on the th. he had just been here days. mrs. bates. uh-huh. it might help you to read that [referring to articles in local fort worth papers which witness brought with her]. mr. jenner. well, i will in a moment. i want to get from you--what was his attitude toward russia? mrs. bates. well, he never did talk much about it, as far as that goes. but these notes, it was--uh--the terrible living conditions and the terrible working conditions and--uh--he did say, "anything you hear about vacations and those big may day celebrations, that's all propaganda." he said, "you don't get vacations." and he said, "these may day celebrations--yes; they have them, but you're forced to go. it's not a voluntary thing. and if you have a radio or a television and you don't listen to it, you better have a good explanation because all you hear is party politics and you've got to listen to it. you don't have coffee breaks and you go to work before dawn and you get off after dark." and the notes were very, very bitter about russia. and he never once mentioned the word "communist." mr. jenner. either in his notes or orally to you? mrs. bates. he just said "the party." mr. jenner. the party? those are the words he used--the expression, rather? mrs. bates. uh-huh. and he said you couldn't talk, you couldn't express anything because there was always a party person around and he'd report you. mr. jenner. uh-huh. mrs. bates. he didn't talk very much. just helped me with the translation and the notes--to read them. mr. jenner. did he say anything to you about any effort on his part to become a citizen of russia? mrs. bates. didn't know anything about it. oh, another thing he said that he was very bitter about--he went over there on a -year visa and, of course, he married marina. at the end of the years when he wanted to leave, they wouldn't let him bring her back. they said, "you go ahead and we'll send her to you." "well, of course," he said, "i knew i'd never see her again." so, he stayed months longer until he could get her and he raised so much cain until they finally let him. mr. jenner. raised cain with whom? mrs. bates. the russians. mr. jenner. uh-huh. mrs. bates. he wouldn't leave--his visa was out but he wouldn't leave until they let her go. mr. jenner. uh-huh. did he express orally to you any views or opinions respecting the government of the united states? mrs. bates. never. mr. jenner. did you gather anything with respect to his attitude toward the united states? mrs. bates. no; i've thought and thought--and, of course, i've been asked questions all along. and he didn't discuss anything. if you got words out of him at a time, you were doing good. he just didn't talk--except explaining those notes and, at times, he would go into detail on them. conversations--he had actual conversations that he had had with different people over there. mr. jenner. oh, he had? mrs. bates. if you could find those notes, i tell you--they were fascinating to read. "inside russia"--was what it was. and they were coherent and they were well written. and he had them all in sequence. i mean, they weren't just haphazard. he had them all in sequence according to city and dates and things like that. mr. jenner. how was his spelling? mrs. bates. well, the english was fair. mr. jenner. the spelling? mrs. bates. yeah. mr. jenner. he was an accurate speller? mrs. bates. fair. mr. jenner. he had misspelled words, though, occasionally? mrs. bates. oh, yeah. mostly, i'd say, i don't know whether it was misspelled or just that he got in a hurry and left letters out. but there's very few men that are good spellers. i shouldn't say that but it's---- mr. jenner. i am--when i have my secretary. mrs. bates. yeah [laughter]. college students are notoriously bad spellers. mr. jenner. particularly law students. mrs. bates. well--no--particularly psychology majors. they're terrible! mr. jenner. did you type all of his notes? mrs. bates. no; not even a third of them. mr. jenner. tell me that circumstance. mrs. bates. well, on the th, he came up and he was--uh--quite nervous. uh--the other days, he'd sit right there at my desk and--uh--if i needed to ask him anything, why i would. but this day, he was walking up and down and looking over my shoulder and wanting to know where i was--and, finally, i finished the th page. he said, "now, pauline, you told me what your charges were." he said, "this is hours you've worked and pages. i have $ , and no more money. and i can't let you go on." and that's when i asked him if i couldn't go on and type the rest of them. i told him i'd do it for nothing, or if he got the money, why he could pay me. and he said, "no, i don't work that way. i've got $ ." and he pulled a $ bill out of his pocket and walked out. mr. jenner. were you in possession of these notes from day to day or did he take them back with him at night? mrs. bates. oh, he took them with him. he never left anything. and he never left the office until he had picked up what i had typed--even the carbon paper. mr. jenner. even the carbon paper? mrs. bates. oh yeah. he took the carbon paper. he did tell me that--i think it was the second day--that there was a man in fort worth--and he's an engineer. i can't remember. i've scratched my brain on that, too, trying to remember--i just saw the letterhead for a minute--that was interested in having these notes put into book form--manuscript form. mr. jenner. does the name george de mohrenschildt refresh your recollection? mrs. bates. no. uh--i just got a glimpse of the letterhead, and it didn't register with me. mr. jenner. but it sounded like a man who is an engineer? mrs. bates. he said he was an engineer--he told me that. but there's lots of engineers in---- mr. jenner. oh, yes. mrs. bates. and that he was interested in helping lee get these notes published. and he said, of course, he would have to change names and things like that. he had actual russian names of people he talked to. and in order to protect people, he'd have to change the names. but the man was willing to--uh--wanted to go ahead. he had read all the notes. i never did read all of them. now, this is what lee told me. mr. jenner. lee told you that this other person---- mrs. bates. uh-huh, this engineer. mr. jenner. and the impression is yours that he was an engineer; had read all the notes. mrs. bates. uh-huh. lee told me he had shown him the notes. mr. jenner. uh-huh. mrs. bates. now, i don't know whether he had read them all or not. maybe i shouldn't say. he said, "i've shown him the notes." and the man could read and speak russian. mr. jenner. uh-huh. mrs. bates. that much he did tell me. and i just--uh--the next day when he came up was when he was real nervous and excited, sort of excited, like, i don't know. i'm afraid to say. i don't like to give impressions because they could be wrong. mr. jenner. yes. mrs. bates. but he showed no emotion at any time. the man just never showed any emotion. he had the deadest eyes i ever saw. mr. jenner. uh-huh. did he talk about his wife? mrs. bates. yes--uh--some. mr. jenner. what did he say? mrs. bates. that--uh--she loved america and had wanted to come and that she liked it here very much and hoped that they could get work and stay. and that she--uh--couldn't get over walking down the streets, and the shops--and that new york had just astounded her. mr. jenner. uh-huh. mrs. bates. and texas climate--uh--was really good for her. mr. jenner. the climate, you mean? mrs. bates. uh-huh. and--uh--he never mentioned his mother. he never mentioned that he had a child. mr. jenner. in any of the notes you transcribed, was a child mentioned? mrs. bates. no, sir; i didn't know he had any. mr. jenner. in any notes that you transcribed, did he reach the point at which he had married marina? mrs. bates. never mentioned her. but he told me that he did. mr. jenner. what impression do you have as to the period of time in russia that was covered by the notes that you typed? mrs. bates. well, it was on minsk and--uh--that one that starts with "k"--two cities--and he must have been on them for the whole time he was over there, because he told me he had to just do it when he could get the time and get away from people. and i don't think it was anything that could have been gotten together in just a few months. it was too detailed. mr. jenner. uh-huh. i see. and your thought is that you typed about a third of his notes? mrs. bates. about--from the pile. i don't know how much more there was, really, because they were all sizes--the paper was. mr. jenner. and, also, he didn't permit you to look at the balance? mrs. bates. no; i just saw the envelope. i typed full single-spaced pages. mr. jenner. that was letter size? mrs. bates. letter size. uh-huh. and that's a lot of words. mr. jenner. yes; that's right. mrs. bates. i wish i could remember more about them but--uh--i think my legal training came forth there--you forget things deliberately when you're not suppose to remember things. mr. jenner. yes. mrs. bates. all i remember is the terrible living conditions in russia and the terrible working conditions. they are both the same, mr. jenner [referring to two copies of the fort worth press, which mr. jenner was perusing]. mr. jenner. they are? mrs. bates. uh-huh. one is the first edition and the other is the final edition. mr. jenner. i see. but the text of the story is the same? mrs. bates. yes. mr. jenner. did you relate that experience of yours to anybody at the time? mrs. bates. well, after i--uh--after he left, a short time afterward, caroline hamilton and i are good friends. she's a reporter on the press. mr. jenner. that's the fort worth press? mrs. bates. uh-huh. and we were having lunch one day down at the corner drugstore and talking about, oh, just this, that, and the other thing, and i said, "by the way, caroline, i did a real interesting job the other day. and the boy that i did it for is broke and out of a job, and you might be able to help him." so, i gave her lee's name and telephone number. that's all he gave me--was the telephone number--his brother's telephone number. mr. jenner. yes. mrs. bates. and they tried to contact him but couldn't. mr. jenner. could not contact---- mrs. bates. lee. i just thought maybe they might be able to find him work, or something like that, because he wasn't working. he hadn't gotten a job. and he was real worried about it, because he needed one. mr. jenner. yes. mrs. bates. and i just thought maybe that they might be able to help him find a job. mr. jenner. and they were unable to contact him? mrs. bates. they couldn't find him. they went out to his brother's home several times--oh, i think, two or three times, she said--one of the reporters did. mr. jenner. and when was this? mrs. bates. oh, it was shortly after i did the work. mr. jenner. i see. in the summer of ? mrs. bates. uh-huh; he was still out--i guess he was still out there--but there was never anybody at home when they went out there. mr. jenner. uh-huh. mrs. bates. and, actually, i didn't know that lee was the accused assassin. i didn't see any television, or anything else, the day that the president was killed. i was still under such a shock because i had just seen him go down the street in front of my building and i could have shaken hands with him--and it was a terrible shock--until caroline called me. mr. jenner. uh-huh; that day? mrs. bates. that night of the assassination. and wondered, she said--i was out at my club--and she said, "have you seen any television or listened to any radios?" and i said, "no." she said, "well, have you got a television there?" and i said, "yes." she said, "turn it on--and then call me back." so, i did. and there he was. mr. jenner. and the person you saw on television--this would be the night of the assassination? mrs. bates. uh-huh. mr. jenner. you recognized as being the same person who you knew as lee oswald---- mrs. bates. lee oswald. mr. jenner. and whose notes you typed on the th, th, and th of june? mrs. bates. . mr. jenner. ? mrs. bates. uh-huh. mr. jenner. and you were firm in your recognition of that person? mrs. bates. oh, yes. there was no doubt about it. his eyes alone would--you could recognize. and when i also heard him talk, i knew that's who it was. that's all there is [referring to newspaper that mr. jenner was perusing again]. mr. jenner. these first two pages? mrs. bates. yes. mr. jenner. when miss hamilton called you, i take it she came over and talked with you? mrs. bates. not until the wednesday before thanksgiving. mr. jenner. oh, it was delayed for awhile. let's see--thanksgiving was the following week? mrs. bates. uh-huh. caroline said, "well, do you want to do something about it?" i said, "no; not now. wait until i gather my thoughts and see if i'm advised what to do. i don't want to do anything that i shouldn't do." mr. jenner. uh-huh. mrs. bates. because he hadn't been--he had not been--uh--charged then even with the assassination. he'd just been picked up. mr. jenner. uh-huh. mrs. bates. so, then she called me wednesday morning before thanksgiving and she said, "let's do a story on it." so, we sat all wednesday afternoon and talked. so--it wasn't any spur of the moment thing. mr. jenner. yes. i wasn't meaning to suggest that. mrs. bates. no, no; i know that. but we tried to make it just the days he was in my office--and that was a little difficult to do because of all the things that happened since. mr. jenner. yes; in the interim. mrs. bates. uh-huh. mr. jenner. did you ever see him or hear of him from that time forward--that is, the th of june, ? mrs. bates. i saw him on the street twice after that. mr. jenner. oh, you did? this was in fort worth? mrs. bates. uh-huh. he didn't see me. mr. jenner. he didn't see you and you didn't greet him? mrs. bates. oh, he was a half a block or a quarter of a block away. i was going down houston street to the bank and he was going into this--uh--variety store--green's, or grant's, i think it is. mr. jenner. was anybody with him? mrs. bates. no; he was by himself. mr. jenner. did you ever meet marina? mrs. bates. no; his mother called me. mr. jenner. when--after the assassination? mrs. bates. the day the story broke. mr. jenner. this story that you've shown me? mrs. bates. uh-huh. she told me not to talk to anybody until i had talked to her. i said, "well, i'm sorry, mrs. oswald, you're too late." she said, "that is not the property--that is my property." mr. jenner. what is her property? mrs. bates. she said, "i knew that lee had had a public stenographer do some work but i never could find out who." and i said, "mrs. oswald, i didn't even know he had a mother in fort worth. he never spoke of her." she said, "well, don't talk to anyone until i have talked to you." i said, "well, you're just a little bit too late." mr. jenner. did she ever come out to see you? mrs. bates. no. mr. jenner. and that was the only conversation you ever had with her? mrs. bates. yeah--uh-huh. mr. jenner. i am going to show you pages through of a bound document on the cover of which appears the title, "affidavits and statements taken in connection with the assassination of the president." these pages are photostatic copies of what purport to be some manuscript notes. are you familiar with the handwriting of lee oswald? mrs. bates. i was. mr. jenner. as you look at those documents--would you leaf through all the pages i have mentioned? mrs. bates. yes [complying]. it would be pretty hard--oh! wait a minute! wait a minute! mr. jenner. this is for the purpose of inquiring of you, first, whether that's his handwriting and, secondly, whether you recognize any of that material? mrs. bates. right here. mr. jenner. as things that he had in his notes. mrs. bates. (continuing to peruse notes) metropole--uh-huh--minsk. mr. jenner. you are now referring to page ? mrs. bates. yeah. mr. jenner. you see something that is familiar to you? mrs. bates. uh-huh. mr. jenner. were any of the notes that he tendered to you on the punched, ring book paper? mrs. bates. i believe some of them were. mr. jenner. and were any of the notes on the lined paper with the ruled left-hand margin? mrs. bates. every kind of paper imaginable. mr. jenner. well, do you recognize some of them as being on paper of that character? mrs. bates. uh-huh; uh-huh. mr. jenner. now, some of his notes were in longhand, were they not? mrs. bates. yes; in pencil and pen. mr. jenner. in pencil and in pen? mrs. bates. his pen would run out and he would start in on pencil. mr. jenner. now, is that handwriting familiar to you as compared with the handwriting of lee oswald, or what he said was his handwriting, when you transcribed his notes for days? mrs. bates. it looks very much--as i remember it--it looks very much like it. [the witness points to a particular page.] mr. jenner. the witness is referring to page which seems particularly to attract her attention. the head of that is "resident of u.s.s.r." does that page awaken your recollection? mrs. bates. uh-huh--very definitely. mr. jenner. what about it awakens your recollection? mrs. bates. well, as i remember, that's the way his notes started out. mr. jenner. that [reading from notes] "i lived in moscow from october , , to january , , during which time i stayed at the berlin and metropole hotel"? mrs. bates. uh-huh. that is as i remember--as i can remember--and that's all i can do, my recollection is that that's the way they started out--just like a story. mr. jenner. yes. mrs. bates. a diary. mr. jenner. did he take his notes with him, too, when he---- mrs. bates. took everything. he wouldn't allow me to keep anything. mr. jenner. would you go through those pages and see if you recognize any other of the story type of thing? mrs. bates. [complying.] uh-huh. it was strictly russian--on russia--his trip to russia. mr. jenner. and, at that time, he had just returned from russia and it would appear from the notes that you have examined that the later notes deal with his subsequent residence in the united states? mrs. bates. uh-huh. mr. jenner. and in new orleans? mrs. bates. yeah; which i knew nothing about. mr. jenner. well, it occurred afterward, in any event. mrs. bates. uh-huh. i mean, i had never heard of the man before and i didn't hear of him afterwards. mr. jenner. now, the story in the fort worth press--front page story in the fort worth press of friday, november , , volume , no. , final home edition, which you have kindly brought with you today, and which is marked bates exhibit no. and is offered in evidence. mrs. bates. you may have it. mr. jenner. thank you. and that is the story---- mrs. bates. uh-huh. mr. jenner. that was written by miss caroline hamilton, press staff writer, as you have described? mrs. bates. uh-huh. mr. jenner. is that story accurate as you related it to her? mrs. bates. that's right. mr. jenner. is there anything in the story that you would like to amend or correct? mrs. bates. no, sir. it was read to me before it was ever printed twice. mr. jenner. it is bates exhibit no. and is offered in evidence. mrs. bates. and we did it very carefully to make it all--so we wouldn't get the past and the present mixed up. we kept it to the days. mr. jenner. do you recall being interviewed by the fbi on december , ? mrs. bates. yes; let's see, that was a saturday, wasn't it--december ? mr. jenner. [referring to calendar] december was a monday. mrs. bates. well, no; they came to my home on saturday after the story broke. mr. jenner. did they interview you twice? mrs. bates. well, they didn't interview me the second time really. they just--uh--i had received a letter, i think it was, that i turned over to them. mr. jenner. i see. could it have been saturday, the th of november? mrs. bates. it was the following saturday after the story broke. saturday the th of november. yes, sir. mr. jenner. do you recall saying to the fbi men who interviewed you that the story was accurate---- mrs. bates. yes, sir; gave him a copy of it. mr. jenner. in every detail, with one exception--which was that lee oswald never stated that he was working for the u.s. state department. mrs. bates. well, that is not in the story. mr. jenner. tell me about that. mrs. bates. that was what--the radio and television was trying to put words in my mouth at that time. and--uh--i don't know how many times i had to call and tell them to retract that. i never stated that. i stated that when he first said that he went to russia and had gotten a visa that i thought--it was just a thought--that maybe he was going over under the auspices of the state department--as a student or something. mr. jenner. uh-huh. mrs. bates. from that, they got that he was a secret agent for the---- if you think that's bad, you ought to see what they did to me over the weekend. i had to get them to retract--according to the associated press monday they had it on the wire that you people had come out to my house over the weekend and interviewed me--and i was on my way to washington monday! mr. jenner. you mean, this past weekend? mrs. bates. yes; the star telegram called me monday---- mr. jenner. uh-huh. mrs. bates. and asked me about it and i said, "i don't know what you are talking about." and they said, "well, somebody has just jumped the gun." and i said, "well, you'd better do something about it. that's not true. and i certainly don't want to get in trouble with those people." mr. jenner. i think some one of the young men around here told me that--but i put no stock in it, so---- mrs. bates. well, i didn't know anything about it. i don't have a telephone at home. i had it taken out. and there wasn't any way anybody could contact me. i did get my letter friday. but that's all. well, they had me on the plane monday to washington! [laughing]. that's the press. mr. jenner. they try to put two and two together and hope they'll hit it one out of three times. mrs. bates. well, anyhow, the star telegram took care of it. they said that i had gotten the letter--that they understood i had gotten the letter and i would be called as a witness--and that was it. i told them--i said, "you'd better get that off the wires because it's not true--and i'm certainly not going to be accountable for anything like that. no one has contacted me except by letter." but they were putting all kinds of words in my mouth. mr. jenner. they hadn't talked to you at all? mrs. bates. who? mr. jenner. the newspaper people over this weekend? mrs. bates. no; i don't have a phone at home. and i was home very ill with bursitis. mr. jenner. oh, you were? mrs. bates. i've got it right now. it's about to drive me crazy. mr. jenner. that's pretty bad stuff. mrs. bates. but, all this stuff about the secret service, i mean, that's strictly radio and television and reporters. the up and the associated press drove me crazy calling me at and in the morning--"mrs. bates, can't you add something?"--"can't you remember something else?"--"well, can't you elaborate?" well, i had one stock answer: "you cannot elaborate on the truth." mr. jenner. that's right. mrs. bates. and that's all i could remember. i didn't know the man; i could not say anything about him except what happened in my office. and that's all i knew about it. "well, can't you elaborate?"--you can't elaborate on the truth. mr. jenner. no; that's right. does anything occur to you that you think might be helpful to the commission about which i haven't asked you--insofar as seeking the actual facts here is concerned? mrs. bates. i don't know. i can't think of another thing. and i do have to keep from giving impressions i've got now. mr. jenner. yes. you have to---- mrs. bates. i mean, disassociate the past and the present. i've got to. mr. jenner. that's right. mrs. bates. because i don't know anything about the man except what i have read--since then. and i cannot make statements on my opinions or things like that. i don't believe in it. mr. jenner. all right. mrs. bates, there have been a few occasions when the reporter was changing her tape and otherwise we have been off the record, during which we have had some conversations. is there anything that occurred during the course of those asides that i had with you that you think i have failed to bring out--that's pertinent here? mrs. bates. no, sir; i think everything is down. in fact, we quit talking when she was changing the tape--except for a cigarette, or something like that. i wish i could help you more. mr. jenner. so do we. but all we can do is to try to delve into this great mystery. mrs. bates, you have the privilege and right to read over your deposition when it's been transcribed. mrs. bates. may i have a copy? mr. jenner. and to make any additions or corrections you see fit to make and that you think are warranted, and to sign it. you also have the right to waive these privileges if you see fit. if you wish to take advantage of them, this transcript should, i think, be ready along about wednesday of next week, a week from today. if you will call in, if i'm not in--we expect to be here--but if i'm not in, talk to the u.s. attorney, mr. sanders. mrs. bates. that's long distance. i live in fort worth. could you get a'hold of agent howard? mr. jenner. agent howard? well, we cannot let the deposition out of our possession. mrs. bates. no, no; and let him let me know when it is ready? he's the one that brought me over and he's waiting for me. mr. jenner. oh, he is? mrs. bates. uh-huh. mr. jenner. well, when you are driving back with agent howard---- mrs. bates. i'll tell him. mr. jenner. you tell agent howard to let you know when it is ready. mrs. bates. okay. because i don't have a car. mr. jenner. because i have a hundred things to think about and i probably won't think about it. mrs. bates. would there be a possibility of having a copy of it? mr. jenner. the rules provide that if you wish a copy, you may have a copy by paying the court reporter whatever the court reporter's regular rates are. so, if you wish to make an arrangement with her, that's your privilege. mrs. bates. well, i'll ask mr. sansom--he's a very prominent lawyer over there--and he said he wanted a copy of it. mr. jenner. well, we would not supply a copy of it to anyone else. if you personally want a copy, you have the privilege of obtaining one. mrs. bates. uh-uh. well, you couldn't afford to give anybody copies of it. mr. jenner. not only can we not afford it, but we would not sell a copy to anybody--other than yourself. mrs. bates. oh, no; of my deposition, you mean? mr. jenner. you may obtain a copy of your deposition by arrangement with the reporter. mrs. bates. i see what you mean. mr. jenner. but, you may not do so for somebody else. mrs. bates. oh, no; but i mean i want it for my files up at the office. mr. jenner. and thank you for your time and your cooperation. mrs. bates. well, i figured it might help. testimony of max e. clark the testimony of max e. clark was taken at : p.m., on march , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. liebeler. if you will rise and raise your right hand, please, i will place you under oath. (complying.) mr. liebeler. do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. clark. i do. mr. liebeler. mr. clark, my name is wesley j. liebeler. i am a member of the legal staff of the president's commission investigating the assassination of president kennedy. staff members have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the commission pursuant to authority granted to the commission by executive order dated november , , and joint resolution of congress no. . i understand that mr. rankin sent you a letter last week telling you i would be in touch with you, with which he enclosed copies of those documents plus copies of the rules of procedure pertaining to the taking of testimony. i presume you did receive those documents with that letter, is that correct? mr. clark. that is right. mr. liebeler. i want to take your testimony in two basic areas; first, your knowledge of lee oswald gained as a result of somewhat limited contact with him, your knowledge of his relations with this so-called russian community here in the dallas-fort worth area, and, two, to some extent, i want to ask you about your knowledge of mr. george de mohrenschildt. mr. liebeler. would you state your full name, please? mr. clark. max e. clark. mr. liebeler. you are an attorney? mr. clark. yes. mr. liebeler. a member of the bar of texas? mr. clark. yes. mr. liebeler. any other state? mr. clark. no, i am licensed to practice in the federal courts and american bar association. mr. liebeler. and you maintain your offices in fort worth, is that correct? mr. clark. that is correct. mr. liebeler. what is your home address? mr. clark. selkirk drive west. mr. liebeler. how long have you been a member of the bar? mr. clark. since --now i have to stop and think---- mr. liebeler. that's good enough; that's just fine, and you are a native-born american, mr. clark? mr. clark. yes. mr. liebeler. born here in texas? mr. clark. no, i was born in indiana. mr. liebeler. when did you move to texas, approximately? mr. clark. in . mr. liebeler. would you state for us briefly your educational background? mr. clark. well, i attended public high schools in fort worth, graduated and went to t.c.u., university of texas, year in the university of arizona and received my law degree at the university of texas. mr. liebeler. your wife, i understand, was born in france and her parents were born in russia, is that correct? mr. clark. my wife was born in france; her father is russian and her mother is english and russian. i know her father was born in russia but i am not certain whether her mother was born in russia or england because they alternated back and forth so i really don't know. mr. liebeler. does your wife speak russian? mr. clark. yes. mr. liebeler. did there come a time when you made the acquaintance of lee harvey oswald and his wife, marina oswald? mr. clark. yes. mr. liebeler. would you tell us in your words the background leading up to that; how it happened, the circumstances leading up to when you met him, approximately when? mr. clark. we first became aware of oswald when we noticed in the newspaper in fort worth that lee oswald, a defector, had returned to fort worth with this russian wife and very shortly after, i noticed it in the paper, possibly the same week, my wife received a phone call from oswald stating that he was there and he understood she spoke russian and her name had been given to him as a person speaking russian from someone from the texas employment commission and she said well, that that was true, that she had spoke some russian and i was at my office and we would either call--or we would call him that weekend so she discussed it with me when i came home and on a sunday following that, why, i told her "well, might as well call if the girl spoke russian and hadn't been able to communicate" she might as well call her; and so she placed the call to oswald's brother, i believe is where they were staying the newspaper said, and talked with oswald and suggested if he wanted to, he and his wife could drive over to our house that afternoon and he stated to her that it was not convenient for him, so we felt, well, we made the offer so that's it; so we paid no further attention to him or did not make any further attempt. mr. liebeler. this first attempt of oswald's to contact your wife did he tell you what motivated him; was it purely a social matter? mr. clark. purely social; his wife could not speak english and she would like to talk to some girl that spoke russian so we made the offer. we were not about to go out to his house where he was living. if he wanted to see us he could come over there. we felt we had done enough. shortly after that my wife's mother was having an operation in france so it had been planned that she would go over there during this operation, so my wife left in july, i believe, or first of august. i have forgotten, of and was gone weeks or something like that. when she returned to fort worth in september or the latter part of september, the russian group which she keeps rather close contact with--there is not such a large number between dallas and fort worth that they communicate quite freely back and forth--stated that they had met this marina oswald and that she was having an extremely hard time and so several of them came over from fort worth, i mean from dallas to fort worth and asked my wife to meet them at oswald's house. mr. liebeler. who is this? mr. clark. i think it was george bouhe and anna meller and i've forgotten but i wasn't present, i don't know, but this is what my wife was telling me, so she arranged to meet them at this apartment that the oswalds were living in one afternoon and she told me that she met this marina and she looked like a little child and had this baby and she talked with her and oswald was apparently working because she did not see him and then we had no further contact with them or even knew about them until oswald apparently quit his job or was fired and this marina and the baby which was quite young at the time went to live with a friend of ours, elena hall who at that time was divorced and was living by herself and she volunteered or asked this marina and the child to live with her awhile. apparently, oswald left the city and went to dallas to look for a job or whether they were separated i don't know because we had heard stories that oswald had beat her and that it was not going very well, their marriage, and so---- mr. liebeler. approximately when was it that marina moved in with elena hall; do you remember? mr. clark. some time in october of ; the exact date i don't know. i know that she had been over there a few days when elena hall had an automobile wreck late one night. we received a phone call from the hospital to pick up this marina and the baby and take them to the hospital because elena was under the impression that she had killed the baby or marina in the car wreck. she thought that they were involved. mr. liebeler. were they in the car at all? mr. clark. no; they were not in the car but she was injured pretty badly, apparently, during this car wreck. so, we went by to this elena hall's house about that night, picking up marina and the baby and took her to the hospital and then, of course, she had been given sedatives and--elena hall--and i don't know whether she knew any more about it. i did not see her that night. mr. liebeler. did marina see elena hall that night? mr. clark. i think so but i am not sure. i know we took them to the hospital and then we took marina and the baby back to her home, to this elena hall's home, and, of course, during--from that period while elena was in the hospital my wife had to take food or pick up this marina and buy her groceries or milk for the baby and look after her because she could not speak english and had no transportation or any way to get food. so, usually every day my wife would go over and either take her to the grocery or take her food. mr. liebeler. i want to ask some detailed questions about that but before we get into that, so i don't forget, i want to go back. you said oswald had told you he had gotten your name from somebody in the texas employment commission---- mr. clark. yes. mr. liebeler. is that your recollection or in fact, did oswald tell you that he had gotten your name from a man by the name of peter gregory at the fort worth public library? mr. clark. of course, i had no communication with oswald at this time. when he talked with my wife over the phone he indicated to her that he had gotten my wife's name and peter gregory's name from the employment commission. now, i could be mistaken but apparently mr. gregory and my wife's name were given to him as people that spoke russian. of course, we know mr. gregory and then after, immediately after this came about, why, my wife--we talked with the gregorys. which came first, i do not know. i don't know who saw oswald first. i believe mr. gregory saw them before we did. mr. liebeler. do you know who it was in the texas employment commission that gave oswald the name of peter gregory and your wife? mr. clark. no. i don't but i can understand fairly well, why. my aunt had been employed by the texas employment commission for , years up until her death a few years ago and then my sister still works there. i know it wasn't my aunt because she was dead at the time but my sister, and i have talked with her since, and it was not her and she said it could have been any one of several. i was under the impression she said my wife said that he had said someone by the name of smith at the employment commission but we don't know anybody by the name of smith. mr. liebeler. this is the texas employment commission office in fort worth, is that correct? mr. clark. yes. mr. liebeler. is there just one office of the texas employment commission in fort worth? mr. clark. there may be some branches but i don't think so. i think this came out of the main office. whether he called us or he called the gregorys first, i don't know. mr. liebeler. one of the things that the commission is doing in an attempt to learn as much as we can about oswald is we are trying to put together a schedule of income and outgo of funds throughout the entire time he lived in this country after he returned from russia. i would like to have you if you could recollect as best you can the exact amount of food, groceries or money or other things that your wife provided to marina oswald while she lived at elena hall's house. do you have knowledge of those things? mr. clark. actually, it was probably very small because elena was in the hospital, to my recollection not more than a week and during that time, apparently there was--she bought her some groceries and i do recall she said she bought her a carton of cigarettes. i doubt if it would exceed $ or $ . mr. liebeler. as far as you know the only thing that your wife did provide to marina were these things you described? mr. clark. yes. mr. liebeler. do you know whether she gave marina any money? mr. clark. i am sure she did not give her any cash; no. mr. liebeler. would you go on with your story now, please? mr. clark. so, upon--when this elena was in the hospital my wife would see marina about every day and i think that one evening during that week, i took her and the baby and my wife to a restaurant for dinner one night and then on the sunday following this hospital treatment and while elena was still in the hospital, marina asked my wife if we would come over on sunday afternoon and have some russian dinner that she would prepare for us and this elena's ex-husband was coming into town from odessa and if we would come over there, or o'clock sunday afternoon, she would prepare this dinner, so we planned on going over there and we did and when we got there oswald was there. that was the first time either my wife or myself had met oswald; so, we were there, oh, i would say approximately hours. some time after we arrived then john hall, as i recall, came in from the hospital. he had been over seeing his wife and then we sat around and talked and we ate later on and then we left rather early in the evening. well, probably, i don't recall the time but it must have been or o'clock. mr. liebeler. do you know whether oswald ever stayed at elena hall's home while elena was in the hospital? mr. clark. i have no way of knowing. i did not think he did. it was under my impression he was in dallas at the time. in fact, we were quite surprised to see him that sunday afternoon because we had formed the impression that marina and he had separated. i don't know definitely because i couldn't talk with marina. she only spoke russian at the time. mr. liebeler. did your wife have the impression that there had been marital difficulties between the oswalds at that time? mr. clark. yes. mr. liebeler. can you tell us any specific reasons why your wife thought that? mr. clark. none other than the conversations and the fact that marina seemed quite happy with him gone, more than the fact that she did not seem to miss him and the fact that he wasn't there. mr. liebeler. during this time that you and john hall and your wife and marina and oswald were present at elena hall's home, did you have a conversation with oswald? mr. clark. yes, i did. mr. liebeler. what did he say and what did you say? mr. clark. of course, i was extremely interested in, well, life in russia and to find out just exactly why he left in the first place and why he came back and he was in a very talkative mood and he talked at great length about his stay there and he seemed to want to make a point with everyone he met that he wanted them to know he was lee oswald the defector. he seemed to be quite proud of that distinction. in his opinion he thought that made him stand out and he would always say, "you know who i am?" when he would meet someone for the first time, so he was not trying to keep it a secret and in talking with him i asked him why he went to russia. he said that he was in the marines and he had read a lot of karl marx and he had studied considerably while he was in the marines and he decided that he would get out of the marines and he would go to russia. mr. liebeler. did he tell you that he studied marxism when he was in the marines? mr. clark. yes. mr. liebeler. did he indicate to you that he had studied the russian language while in the marines? mr. clark. he indicated he had because i asked him how he learned to speak russian and he said he studied while in the marines and learned a lot more when he went to russia but apparently, he studied it quite awhile before he left. mr. liebeler. did he tell you whether he took any formal courses or whether this was private effort? mr. clark. he did not indicate but it was my impression it was more or less self-study and he stated that when he got his discharge from the marines that he went--i said, "how did you get a visa; how did you get to russia?" he said very simple; he just went down, made application to get a visa and what he had to do was to put up so much money for some kind of tour and at the same time when he put up this money for his passage, why, he got his visa stamped and he said he went to russia, and the minute he got to russia, he went to the american embassy and told them he wanted to renounce his citizenship and he turned in his passport and he went to see about becoming a soviet citizen and they told him they couldn't do it but they gave him a work permit. mr. liebeler. did he tell you why the russians would not accept him as a russian citizen? mr. clark. no; he didn't say. he indicated he had to stay there a length of time before he could become a citizen and he already secured a work permit card and they assigned him an apartment and he said because he was a marine he got a better apartment. he got an apartment with a washstand and he was quite proud of the fact he got a little better apartment than the normal working person there. mr. liebeler. did he tell you where he was sent to work? mr. clark. he did and i think it was in minsk or some place; i don't remember exactly. he told me the name of the town; it was wherever marina came from. i have forgotten which one it was. mr. liebeler. did he tell you any more details about his relations with the american embassy and the soviet authorities when he first came to the soviet union? mr. clark. nothing except he turned in his passport and tried to become a soviet citizen and they refused to make him a citizen and they gave him this work permit and he was particularly unhappy about the fact they didn't make a fuss about him and put him to work as a common sheet metal worker. mr. liebeler. did he tell you that? mr. clark. yes; he told me. mr. liebeler. what did he say? mr. clark. i asked him what it was like working there and he said the closest comparison he could give would be like the marine corps. he said if you got up so high in a job it was like being promoted to corporal, sergeant and so forth. he said the higher you went in their jobs, the more privileges you got and he said in his job he felt if he stayed there years he might get up maybe one rung in the ladder and he didn't think it was real communism is the way he put it and that he thought he was completely disgruntled about it. he said you could get a job any place and they always had about five people to do each job; said he didn't work hard but you couldn't progress unless you stayed in one place and made friends with the boss and he said he didn't like that; and he said if he wanted to go to a bigger city--i said why didn't you go to another factory if you did not like that. he said he could but then he couldn't get an apartment or place to live and they controlled the workers by limiting the places you could live and they assigned you an apartment and it might take years to get another one and he was quite bitter about the fact that the managers had better houses and an automobile and the fact that they could go to, well, to the coast or to the beach in the summer on their vacations while he could not. i said, "well, you were saying everyone got a month's vacation." he said, "that's true, but you had to pay your transportation," and it would take a year's salary to go from his place of employment down to the black sea. mr. liebeler. he told you that? mr. clark. yes. mr. liebeler. did he tell you he had done any traveling while in the soviet union? mr. clark. he said he was limited because he did not have the money. mr. liebeler. did he tell you how much money he was paid at his job? mr. clark. as i recall, between and rubles and he was justifying that on this basis, he said actually it wasn't so bad except you had your housing taken care of and your medical expenses. that's the main things he seemed to count most important but he said that clothing, shoes was very expensive and traveling was extremely expensive. mr. liebeler. did he tell you that he received any income from any source other than his job? mr. clark. he said that's all he had and he had written to his mother to get money to come back to the states. mr. liebeler. did he mention receiving money from the red cross? mr. clark. no; he did not. mr. liebeler. did he ever mention to you that he had gone from minsk to moscow to talk to the officials at the american embassy about returning to the united states? mr. clark. no; he did not. mr. liebeler. did he ever tell you that marina went from minsk to kharkof for a - or -week vacation after they were married? mr. clark. no; he did not. he said that after they were married that she moved in this apartment with him and said they used to go out and walk around and do some hunting of some kind; i don't know. i didn't pay much attention to him. he said they went out for amusements for walks. i asked what he did and he said there wasn't too much to do, go to dances once in awhile. he indicated to me that marina had to work up until a very short time before the birth of the child and that she was supposed to go back to work within a month after the birth of the child but by putting in his application to return to the united states somehow or other she delayed in reporting back to work and finally his permit and all to return had arrived and so that they left. she never returned to work after the birth of the child. mr. liebeler. do you remember specifically that he mentioned the high cost of transportation? mr. clark. yes; the reason i remember that is i had read an article recently about all of the resort buildings and had seen some pictures in life or time magazine on the black sea, this resort area, and asked him if he had been down there as i heard it was similar to the riviera in france. he said no, he wanted to go there. i said, "why didn't you go there during your vacation if you had a month?" he said he couldn't afford it. it would take nearly a year's salary for him to pay for the transportation. i said, "isn't housing and food provided?" he said, "oh, yes; if i could have gotten there i could have a free house but only people high up or special favors are given permission to go down there." he was quite unhappy about it. mr. liebeler. he mentioned to you that his apartment had a private bath while most of the other apartments had to share the bath? mr. clark. yes; i was asking him what the apartments were like. he said most of the apartment houses would have, for example, on one floor have two wings; on the right wing would be a group of six apartments, would be just one big room leading off the hall and at the end of the hall would be the bath and kitchen and these six apartments would share that one bath and one kitchen. and the other side of the wing would be a duplication and he said the only difference between his and those apartments was his had a wash basin and private stove in there, small apartment stove so he could cook if he wanted to and he did not have to use the communal kitchen. mr. liebeler. now, you said that marina did not go back to work after the baby was born? mr. clark. that's what he indicated to me. mr. liebeler. did he indicate that that was an extraordinary situation? mr. clark. yes; he said it was very unusual because all women were allowed so much leave; i think he said weeks before the birth of a child and weeks or something after the birth of the child in which they were not required to work but other than that they worked the whole time. mr. liebeler. what happened to the child when they went back to work? mr. clark. he said they take it to special places that elderly women--they receive their pay for taking care of the children; kind of a babysitting service or nursery and you would drop the children off at the nursery and at the end of the day, the mothers pick them up. mr. liebeler. did he express any opinion as to this procedure? did he think this was a good thing or bad thing? mr. clark. well, he didn't seem quite--he just took it as a matter of course. he thought that was all right. he didn't have much comment to make on that. mr. liebeler. i am looking at a report of an interview which you gave on about november , , to two fbi agents, mr. haley and mr. madland. do you remember that? mr. clark. yes. mr. liebeler. this report indicates that you told them at that time that months after oswald's child was born that his wife did go back to work and that the government did take the child and place it in a government nursery. mr. clark. no; i think maybe earl must have misunderstood because when the baby came over here it was my understanding she was less than months old. i am not sure but the baby was very young and i think earl might have misunderstood when i said after the mothers returned to work they were placed in a nursery. mr. liebeler. seems like he might have confused the general proposition with the particular case of the oswalds. mr. clark. yes. mr. liebeler. now, did oswald tell you the circumstances under which he met and subsequently married his wife, marina? mr. clark. well, i have heard from him and then, of course, i think she told my wife who gave me her version of it that he stated while he was working as a sheet metal worker in this factory, why, there wasn't too much social activity and he with some of his fellow workers went one evening or was in the habit of going to a dance that they had in fact for everyone and he would go and this one night he went there and he met marina and so he danced with her quite a bit and that they, after a short time, they got married. mr. liebeler. did he indicate he had had any difficulty in securing permission to marry her? mr. clark. he didn't indicate any trouble at all getting permission to marry her and then what she told my wife was that she was quite a flirt. in other words, she said that she made a practice of going late to the dance so she would be fresh and then all the boys would rush to her because she would have fresh make-up and the others would be hot and tired. so, she went late this night, later in the evening, and arrived very fresh and she met oswald and she thought it was unusual to be dancing and having a boyfriend that was an american, so she started going with him; so my wife asked her, she said "what did your friends think about you going with an american and marrying an american and coming to the united states?" marina says "well, they told me it couldn't be any worse." mr. liebeler. by that she meant the united states couldn't be any worse than the soviet union? mr. clark. couldn't be worse, so she gave the impression she was quite happy to get out of there. mr. liebeler. did your wife have the feeling that was one of the reasons why she married oswald? mr. clark. my wife had the impression she thought it was something new and strange and it was something to look forward to so she was--seemed to be as much interested in leaving russia as staying there. mr. liebeler. now, did oswald tell you what prompted him to leave the soviet union and return to the united states? mr. clark. yes; he told me that he had finally made up his mind that he would never get any place in the soviet union and that he was disappointed because it was not like karl marx or was not true communism, in his words, and that he thought it was just as bad as a democracy and he said he wanted to leave there because he just felt there was no hope for him there and he would never be able to get ahead or make his mark so he decided the best bet for both he and marina was to leave so he made application to leave. mr. liebeler. do you remember him specifically using the words "make his mark" or is that just an expression of yours? mr. clark. that is my expression but my general impression was he wanted to become famous or infamous; that seemed to be his whole life ambition was to become somebody and he just seemed to have the idea that he was made for something else than what he was doing or what particular circumstances he was in. mr. liebeler. you mentioned previously that he did not try to hide the fact that he was a defector and had gone to russia and you gave the impression to me in your testimony that he called attention to this fact and you said, if i recall it, he would say "well, you know who i am" when you met him. would you think this would be an example of what you just spoke of? mr. clark. yes; he didn't want to be among the common people; he wanted to stand out. he wanted everybody to know he was the defector. mr. liebeler. and he called attention to that fact to make himself stand out even though it might not have been a wise thing to call to peoples' attention? mr. clark. yes; i thought it was very stupid of him but he seemed to think it made him somebody. mr. liebeler. can you think of any other examples of behavior on oswald's part? mr. clark. well, he stated while he was in russia he didn't--he was completely disgruntled by the fact they only made him a common sheet metal worker; that he thought since he was a defector and former marine corpsman that he would be given special attention and the fact that he was quite proud of the fact that he did rate a better apartment than the average sheet metal worker. he was quite proud of the few accomplishments he had made and he wanted to impress upon me that he read very much and how much he had read. mr. liebeler. what did he tell you about that? mr. clark. oh, he said he read all the time and that he read everything he could about communism, about karl marx and that he felt that it was much better than participating in sports. i tried to see if he was interested in sports and he wasn't. mr. liebeler. did he tell you he was a member of any communist or marxist organizations? mr. clark. no; he didn't. we didn't get into any phase of organizations. he was more or less discussing his particular life in russia and what it was like and i was interested in how he got back and why he decided to come back. mr. liebeler. did he indicate that he had any difficulty in obtaining permission to return to the united states? mr. clark. well, i was quite surprised as to the ease in which he and marina and the baby had gotten permission to come back and i asked him "how did you work that?" he said "well, we just went down and i made application and she was my wife and the child and told them i wanted to go back to the united states. when i secured the passage" he said, "they okayed it." said "we left." he didn't seem to think it was unusual. he said that he just happened to ask at the right place is what he indicated to me; said "maybe these other people hadn't hit at the right time or hadn't approached the right person." mr. liebeler. did he indicate the u.s. government had given him or marina any difficulty about them returning? mr. clark. none whatsoever; the reason they hadn't because he had not renounced his citizenship. i said "i thought you said you turned in your passport and wanted to become a soviet citizen?" he said "i did turn in my passport but they didn't make me a soviet citizen so i did not renounce my citizenship. so when i made application to come back", he said "they couldn't keep me out." mr. liebeler. he ascribed this failure for this part to the renouncing of his american citizenship to the refusal of the russians to make him a citizen? mr. clark. that's right. mr. liebeler. he did not mention the u.s. embassy or moscow had refused to permit him to return? mr. clark. no. mr. liebeler. did he indicate any hostility toward the state department or embassy or moscow? mr. clark. he did not seem hostile with anyone in particular. he just thought everyone was out of step but him. he was rather an arrogant-talking person. mr. liebeler. he did not mention specifically any government official, president kennedy, governor connally? mr. clark. no one. mr. liebeler. did he tell you about his service in the marine corps? mr. clark. nothing except he was very unhappy while in the marine corps. he didn't like any part of it. mr. liebeler. did that come up in connection with his comparison of life in the soviet union with life in the marine corps? mr. clark. i would ask him "how would you classify life in the soviet union; you say everyone has a job and everyone gets a salary whether they work or not?" he said just that they have to work. there may be five people for each job and if you apply at a factory they got to put you on; and i said "what prevents everyone from migrating from one place to another if they have to take you if you make application?" he said "it's a fact they control the movement of employees by the lack of places to live and assignment of apartments." mr. liebeler. he did not mention to you he received an undesirable discharge from the marine corps? mr. clark. no; he did not. mr. liebeler. did you know about it at that time? mr. clark. yes. mr. liebeler. who told you that? mr. clark. i think it was in the paper. i felt pretty sure anyone that would be a defector they would probably give him a dishonorable discharge. mr. liebeler. did any of the other members or any of the members of the so-called russian community in the dallas-fort worth area ever raise with you the question of whether they should associate with oswald; whether he was a safe person for them to associate with him or have anything to do with him? mr. clark. i think everyone was discussing that as to whether or not they should especially when he first came back and all of them asked me and i said "in my opinion he is a defector and you know what he is"; i said "you should not hold that against this girl marina. she's having a hard time. he's beating her up, everything is strange to her, she can't speak the language, i don't think you should ostracize her because of oswald." most of them had absolutely no use for oswald and they discussed all the time they hated to let this girl get beat up and kicked around by this oswald without at least trying to look after her. i told them i didn't see anything wrong in looking after this girl. i said "as far as oswald coming back here you can be assured or bet that when he returned to the united states the fbi has got him tagged and is watching his movements or i would be very much surprised." mr. liebeler. if they didn't---- mr. clark. if they didn't, i said "you know that they know exactly where he is in town" and i said "i imagine they know who he is contacting because i know enough about the boys in the fbi; they would keep a record." mr. liebeler. did you ever discuss oswald with anybody in the fbi? mr. clark. not before this happened. mr. liebeler. have you ever had any official connection with the fbi? mr. clark. no; but i worked with them quite a bit when i was in security industrial with general dynamics; that's when i became acquainted with earl haley. mr. liebeler. do you remember specifically having a conversation of this sort with de mohrenschildt? mr. clark. i talked with george de mohrenschildt about oswald. i don't think i talked with him very much, maybe once or twice. well, i saw oswald this one time and, of course, we would see george de mohrenschildt off and on, periodically up until the time he left and i received a letter from george every once in awhile from haiti so i know him quite well. mr. liebeler. have you received letters from mr. de mohrenschildt after the assassination? mr. clark. yes. mr. liebeler. has he said anything in these letters about the assassination? mr. clark. oh, yes. mr. liebeler. can you tell us generally what he said? mr. clark. well, one letter he said he just couldn't believe oswald did it and he said he was quite surprised and he said that he had written to mrs. kennedy's mother because apparently george knew mrs. auchincloss or whatever her name is and had known mrs. kennedy when she was much younger and said he had written to her expressing his sorrow about this and that he felt that oswald was not the one that did it. mr. liebeler. did he give you any reasons for his feeling that way? mr. clark. no; he did not and then i received another letter from him and he just said he still couldn't believe that this had happened--that oswald had done it. mr. liebeler. do you still have copies of those letters? mr. clark. i know i got at least one of them. i may have both of them. i know i got the last one. mr. liebeler. i would like you, if you would, you don't have them with you, of course? mr. clark. no; i don't. mr. liebeler. if you would look through your records when you go back to fort worth and if you do have any of those letters, i would appreciate if you would send them or copies to mr. sanders here and i will be back in dallas next week and i would like to read the letters and may want to make them part of this record. mr. clark. sure. mr. liebeler. did de mohrenschildt ever say to you in these letters anything to the effect he thought that the fbi was responsible for the assassination of president kennedy? mr. clark. no. mr. liebeler. he never gave you any specific reasons why he did not think oswald was the man who did it? mr. clark. no; george would be the type person that he is, he would not believe that anyone he knew would do anything that was out of line. he is an extremely likeable person and he is quite an adventurer. he walked through mexico; he is extremely athletic and he is, well, actually, he should have lived or years ago and been an explorer or pirate or something like that. mr. liebeler. do you know how close his association with oswald was? mr. clark. well, i understand one time he threatened to beat oswald to a pulp if he didn't leave marina alone, quit beating her up. mr. liebeler. who told you that? mr. clark. i forgot; one of the russian group and i think george told me that. mr. liebeler. george de mohrenschildt? mr. clark. yes; and he indicated to me that he had really given oswald a real lashing about it. mr. liebeler. do you have any idea when that was? mr. clark. it's bound to have been in--sometime after the first of january, sometime in the spring of . mr. liebeler. how do you fix that date in your mind? mr. clark. well, i know that the only time that we saw oswald and marina was in october of , before she left for dallas and i don't think that george de mohrenschildt had come in contact with oswald and marina much before that time. i know that when they moved to dallas, the oswalds, george de mohrenschildt, we would hear, would take oswald and marina around or had them over to his apartment several times and i know that during the christmas holidays of they had a big party, the russian group had a party at the ford's house around the th or th of december. we were invited but we were skiing and didn't go. mr. liebeler. off the record. (off record discussion.) mr. clark. so, getting back to that party--so we didn't go to the party at the fords. i have heard that george de mohrenschildt is the one that took the oswalds to the ford party and that he saw them off and on after that and that during that period of time we would hear in fort worth that oswald had beat marina up and that she had to run off, and quite a bit of physical violence, and that george finally got hold of oswald and threatened him--picked him up by his shirt and shook him like a dog and told him he would really work him over if he ever laid another hand on her. mr. liebeler. did you think that was sometime after the ford party? mr. clark. i feel pretty sure it was. i have nothing to tie it to but i think it was. mr. liebeler. how often did you see de mohrenschildt during the period january , , to the time he left for haiti? mr. clark. i do not recall exactly when he left for haiti. mr. liebeler. i think it was in may sometime. mr. clark. i know one time during that period i think george went to pennsylvania or new york. mr. liebeler. yes; that's right, i believe. mr. clark. i would say we would see them at least once every or weeks maybe. he might drop over to the office in fort worth on the way through. i think he did that a couple times and we would either see him at his apartment or he would come to our house. we saw him once a month or maybe more. mr. liebeler. do you remember in april , there was an attempt made on the life of general walker? mr. clark. oh, yes. mr. liebeler. did you see de mohrenschildt after that? mr. clark. i am sure i did. if he left in may i feel sure i saw him shortly before he left for haiti. mr. liebeler. do you recall discussing the attempt on general walker with de mohrenschildt? mr. clark. no; there would be no reason. we seldom discussed or talked politics. mr. liebeler. you have no recollection that he mentioned oswald in connection with the walker attempt at that time? mr. clark. at that time it was the furthest thing because i don't think that george de mohrenschildt and i even mentioned oswald in any of our conversations, parties or get-togethers at any time unless it was just someone made a comment about marina getting beat up about the only comment we had. mr. liebeler. do you have any question about de mohrenschildt's loyalty to the united states? mr. clark. none; i think he talks a lot and i think he is a character but i don't think he is disloyal in any respect. mr. liebeler. would it surprise you to hear that he was of the opinion that the fbi was responsible for the assassination and that oswald was just a "patsy" in the thing? mr. clark. knowing george, he's liable to say anything whether he really believed it or not because he talks very loudly and sometimes without even thinking; most of the time he does that. mr. liebeler. did you form any opinion of oswald during the time that you spoke to him and on the basis of things you heard about him as to whether he was mentally unstable or not? mr. clark. it didn't enter my mind he was mentally unstable. i just thought he was a person that he couldn't get along with anybody or anyone. he just seemed to be a person that believed everyone else in the world was out of step but himself. mr. liebeler. and this is about the only opinion you formed of him? mr. clark. well, i just thought--i didn't think--well, i just felt that this is a guy that just was never going to be able to do anything because he couldn't get along with anybody and he just, he was--didn't seem to know what he wanted to do or what he wanted to have and he was a completely shiftless individual. mr. liebeler. do you know jack ruby? mr. clark. never heard of him until all this happened. mr. liebeler. you don't know of any connection between oswald and ruby? mr. clark. i wouldn't have any reason of knowing whether he did or did not. mr. liebeler. and you don't know of any connection between the two? mr. clark. no; i don't. mr. liebeler. were you surprised when you heard that oswald had been arrested in connection with the assassination? mr. clark. i was very surprised because it never entered my mind in the first place and the last we had heard, he was in new orleans or some place like that. he had left dallas. we didn't even know he returned to dallas. mr. liebeler. do you think based on your knowledge of oswald that he was capable of committing an act such as he was charged to have committed? mr. clark. definitely; i think he would have done this to president kennedy or anyone else if he felt that it would make him infamous. mr. liebeler. you have the feeling that his motivation was simply to call attention to himself? mr. clark. i do. i think it was primarily to go down in history because he seemed to think he was destined to go down in history some way or other. mr. liebeler. have you now told us everything that you recall about oswald and the conversations that you had with him? i don't have any more questions at the moment but if you can think of anything that you think the commission should know or anything you want to add to what you said, go right ahead. mr. clark. it is extremely difficult to remember because there has been so much printed and so much said so it is hard with - or -hour conversations over years ago to remember what was discussed and to separate it from what you formed an opinion on since then. so, it is extremely difficult to say. i think i covered everything. at the time when i talked with him i was very interested in learning what it was like in russia and i asked many questions of oswald primarily concerned with what life was like in russia. mr. liebeler. do you remember in any greater detail than you already testified about these hunting trips or any association with firearms? mr. clark. the question of firearms did not come up. he just indicated he and marina would go out in the fields and walk around. i don't recall whether he said he went hunting. i am not a hunter; it doesn't interest me a bit. if he said he was hunting it probably would not have registered on me. mr. liebeler. he did not indicate any peculiar or strong interest in firearms to you at that time? mr. clark. not at that time. mr. liebeler. he never indicated that to you at any time? mr. clark. no; not at any time; no, sir. mr. liebeler. mr. clark, have you ever engaged in any conversations with any members of the russian community or heard of any conversations amongst them concerning the question of whether or not oswald might have been a russian agent? mr. clark. most of the russian group were concerned about oswald and marina. it seemed that the older of the russian group, that is, the ones that had lived in the states the longest period of time and couldn't be considered as "dp's" were less concerned about it than those recent arrivals from soviet blocs; the ones that were "dp's" just couldn't understand how the oswalds got out of russia so easily. the older group said well, they figure that they were of no value to the russians and they felt it was good riddance and didn't seem to be concerned about it because they felt the american government was keeping the proper surveillance on them and knew of their background. they would not be put in a position where they could do damage so it did not concern the ones that had been here since the revolution as much as the ones that got out recently. mr. liebeler. most of the opinions of the latter group were based primarily on the difficulties, i suppose, that they themselves had in getting out of russia, is that correct? mr. clark. yes; based on the reason the ones--because they had considerable difficulty in getting out of those countries and they felt probably oswald and marina got out too easily. mr. liebeler. can you think of any particular people, their names, as to this "dp" group that were suspicious or expressed suspicions because of oswald's apparent ease with which he got out of russia? mr. clark. lydia dymitruk and alex kleinlerer, the mellers, anna and teofil meller. i think you talked with them. i can't think. i know there's several others of the younger group that came over. mr. liebeler. do you know mr. and mrs. thomas ray? mr. clark. thomas ray--her name is anna ray, yes; i met them. mr. liebeler. do you know a mr. and mrs. frank ray? mr. clark. no; i don't; i am not sure of the first one; the one i know is the wife is of russian origin; her name is anna. mr. liebeler. that's mrs. frank ray. mr. clark. that's the one i know. mr. liebeler. you don't know mr. or mrs. thomas ray; they live in blossom, tex. mr. clark. no; i don't. i might if i were to see them but i don't recall their name. mr. liebeler. do you yourself have any reason to think that oswald might be an agent of the soviet union? mr. clark. i didn't think he had the intelligence to be an agent. mr. liebeler. you did consider the question prior to the assassination? mr. clark. i considered it briefly when he first contacted us when he got back here and after talking with him, i felt i didn't think that they were that stupid to use someone that stupid as an agent. mr. liebeler. did oswald ever tell you that he had been contacted by the fbi? mr. clark. i did not discuss it with him. mr. liebeler. you never mentioned it? mr. clark. he never mentioned it. i did not inquire of him. i was keeping it strictly what life was in russia. i was trying to stay off political issues or anything about the united states. mr. liebeler. i don't think i have any more questions. thank you very much. testimony of george a. bouhe the testimony of george a. bouhe was taken at p.m., on march , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. liebeler. mr. bouhe, before we start i want to tell you that my name is wesley j. liebeler. i think mr. rankin sent you a letter last week telling you that we would be in touch with you for the purpose of taking your testimony in connection with your knowledge of lee harvey oswald and his background, and anything you might know about the assassination or anything shedding light on oswald's motive. i am a member of the legal staff of the commission, and the commission has authorized me to take your deposition pursuant to the power granted to it by executive order dated november , , and joint resolution of congress no. . i believe we sent you copies of those documents in the letter which you have, and also we sent you a copy of the rules of the commission governing its proceedings and the taking of testimony. now the secret service, as i understand, called you on friday and asked you to be here this afternoon. you are entitled to days' written notice, and i suppose that we can say that you have received the notice since you received it on friday, but i presume you are prepared to go ahead at this time? mr. bouhe. i am. mr. liebeler. thank you. mr. bouhe. may i ask this? is this my appearance before the commission, or is it another step in the investigation preliminary to my appearance before the commission? mr. liebeler. no. this is in effect your appearance before the commission. a transcript of our report will be forwarded to the commission, and it won't be necessary for you to come to washington. mr. bouhe, would you stand and raise your right hand? do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god, in the testimony you are about to give? mr. bouhe. i do. mr. liebeler. would you state your full name for the record, mr. bouhe? mr. bouhe. george a. bouhe. mr. liebeler. what is your address? mr. bouhe. homer street, dallas , tex. mr. liebeler. are you presently employed? mr. bouhe. i am a semiretired accountant. i do not have a regular job since about early , but i keep a number of sets of books and prepare tax returns for many people for whom i was doing that in the last or more years, in addition to my regular job, which i quit on my own volition after about years, on or about april , of last year. mr. liebeler. for whom were you employed up to that time? mr. bouhe. for - / years i was employed as a personal accountant of a very prominent dallas geologist, and probably capitalist if you want to say it, lewis w. macnaughton, senior chairman of the board of the well-known geological and engineering firm of degolyer & macnaughton, but i was macnaughton's personal employee. mr. liebeler. where were you born, mr. bouhe? mr. bouhe. i was born in what was then st. petersburg, now leningrad, russia, on february or , , and the difference in dates is because we had the julian and gregorian calendar, and i have a baptismal certificate showing february . mr. liebeler. under the old russian calendar? mr. bouhe. yes. mr. liebeler. that would be february under the present day calendar? mr. bouhe. yes. mr. liebeler. tell us when and how it came that you came to the united states. mr. bouhe. during the years through back in petrograd, russia, while i was finishing my high school there, which was called the gymnasium, although it had nothing to do with athletics, i was working for the american relief commission as an office boy. it was an association to which the american congress allocated, i think, $ million for the relief of the starving population of russia. the hon. herbert hoover was chairman of that commission. he sent american executives to russia to set up branch offices in several cities, including what was then already petrograd, and i, speaking english, was an office boy. when we finished that thing, i got a little letter of thanks which is now here framed, which is my great pride and joy, in which it says to george alexandrovich bouhe, in gratitude and recognition of his faithful efforts to assist the american relief commission in its efforts to relieve the suffering of the hungry population in russia. mr. liebeler. after you worked for the american relief commission, did that lead to your coming to the united states? mr. bouhe. that is correct. my association with some of the supervisors which were american executives led to numerous discussions with them, including, the now deceased prof. frank golder of stanford university, gen. william haskell, who later commanded the national guard; one of my supervisors said, "why don't you come to america?" so after the office closed sometime in august , more or less, i applied for a passport to leave russia but was refused. then i went across the little river separating soviet russia from finland in the middle of september at night, and it was cold, and got out. mr. liebeler. you went into finland and came to the united states? mr. bouhe. through germany and then to the united states in april . mr. liebeler. did you eventually become an american citizen? mr. bouhe. i became an american citizen on or about june . mr. liebeler. did you continue your education when you came to the united states? mr. bouhe. not regularly and not formally. i was working for years for what is now the chase manhattan bank, but it had previous mergers. i attended the american institute of banking, and that is all i did there, which is not much. mr. liebeler. let me ask you where you learned english, mr. bouhe. mr. bouhe. at home. at the age of to age of , i had a french governess. at the age of to , i had a german governess. at the age of to maybe , i had an english governess. mr. liebeler. you got your first acquaintance with english through the english governess, is that correct? mr. bouhe. yes. mr. liebeler. your formal education in the soviet union was confined to the gymnasium, is that correct? mr. bouhe. that's correct, which is slightly over the high school here, but it was what is called classical, namely because they taught us latin and greek. mr. liebeler. when did you first come to dallas? (mr. jenner entered the room.) mr. liebeler (continued). mr. bouhe, this is mr. jenner. mr. bouhe. on july , . mr. liebeler. have you lived in dallas since that time? mr. bouhe. yes. mr. liebeler. it's been indicated to me, mr. bouhe, that you are regarded as the leader of a so-called russian group here in dallas and the fort worth area, and i would like to have you tell us briefly the nature of that group and how you came to be the, shall we say, so-called leader or its actual leader? let's leave it that way. and particularly, mr. bouhe, did there come a time when you formed a congregation of a russian church here in dallas? would you tell us about that? mr. bouhe. yes; you have just mentioned some flattering remarks which i appreciate if it is true from the sources which you obtained it, but i would say that if i am so called, it means simply because of a process of elimination, because when i came in , there were absolutely only three russian-speaking people in dallas and they were all married people, married to americans, and so on. so i did not, so-to-speak, associate with any russians that might have come or gone through dallas from to about . in , approximately, a great avalanche of displaced persons came to dallas from europe. among these were probably , , people, native of what i would say of various parts of the former russian empire. by that i mean to say that they were not all russian. they might have been estonians, lithuanians, poles, caucasians, georgians, armenians, and such, but we did have one thing in common and not much more, and that was the language. it was a sort of constant amazement to me that these people, prayed god, for years before coming here while still sitting in various camps in germany--they wanted to get to america, and if out of made a -cent effort to learn the english language, i did not find him. so the problem was to help those people to be self-sufficient, self-sustaining, and as i earnestly hoped, faithful citizens of their new homeland. mr. liebeler. you gathered these people together and you formed a church congregation, is that correct? mr. bouhe. that's correct. perhaps not all of the people, because i could not bring a mohammedan into the greek orthodox church, but anybody who wanted to come and worship in the russian or slovenian language was welcome. and as you said, i organized--well, i did the organization work, really. the godfather of it all to help us with finances was a very prominent well-known man who still lives here, paul m. raigorodsky. mr. liebeler. these people came together in an effort to help the people who had just come from europe and who had difficulty with the english language become useful members of the community and become self-sufficient? mr. bouhe. i might have met the first one and maybe helped him to get a job or maybe took him by the hand and took him to crozier tech to learn english, because i have the great reliance on that. some of them were old or very elderly people. "why do i have to learn english? all i want to do is get a job." well, maybe so, but i think we should look into the english language, too. and, of course, it was so long ago, maybe nobody realized or remembers the crozier tech, but i was there frequently, i would say, taking people by the hand and sticking them there. mr. liebeler. at the time did you meet a man by the name of george de mohrenschildt? mr. bouhe. yes; i did, who was then married to his wife number two, if my information is correct. mr. liebeler. that lady's maiden name was sharples? mr. bouhe. that's right; from the main line in philadelphia, and a daughter of a prominent industrialist and oilman. mr. liebeler. did you also meet a gentleman by the name of ilya a. mamantov? mr. bouhe. i did meet him. i cannot promise the year, but somewhere around that time. mr. liebeler. did there come a time when you met lee harvey oswald? mr. bouhe. yes. mr. liebeler. tell us the circumstances surrounding that event. mr. bouhe. i met lee harvey oswald and his wife marina, if my memory and records serve me right, at approximately on saturday, august , . mr. liebeler. where? mr. bouhe. at the home on dorothy lane in fort worth, tex., of mr. and mrs. peter p. gregory. mr. liebeler. who else was there at that time? mr. bouhe. mr. and mrs. gregory, lee oswald, his wife and child, son of mr. gregory who was at that time a student at the university of oklahoma in norman, and mrs. anna meller of dallas, tex., who was invited there for that dinner together with her husband who could not come, so i escorted her with her husband's permission. mr. liebeler. this was a meeting for dinner, is that correct? mr. bouhe. it was that. mr. liebeler. who invited you to the dinner, mr. gregory? mr. bouhe. yes. mr. liebeler. did mr. gregory tell you how he came to meet lee oswald? mr. bouhe. of course. mr. liebeler. has he told you, in effect, that oswald came to him at the fort worth public library and asked him for a letter attesting to his competence as a translator or interpreter of the russian language? mr. bouhe. mr. gregory did tell me, and maybe i am not a hundred percent accurate, that he met him at the fort worth public library where, if my information is correct, mr. gregory teaches, i think, a free class of the russian language. mr. gregory is a native of siberia, and i think a graduate of leland stanford, an educated man who could teach the russian language, and he told me that one day lee harvey oswald sort of approached him and they exchanged a few talks. then, if i am not mistaken, lee harvey oswald came to mr. gregory's office in the continental life building. he came to his office, and if i understood correctly, mr. gregory gave lee harvey oswald a test to evaluate the calibre of his knowledge of the russian language. mr. liebeler. did mr. gregory tell you that lee oswald asked him, mr. gregory, to help him, oswald, write a book on his experiences in the soviet union? mr. bouhe. that i do not recall having heard from mr. gregory. mr. liebeler. did you hear it from anybody else? mr. bouhe. no. mr. liebeler. no other time? did you subsequently hear it after the assassination? mr. bouhe. yes; i heard that from reading the papers, from the testimony of the public stenographer in fort worth. mrs. bailey, i think her name is, to whom oswald came with a $ bill--and that information is from the press--and started dictating the book. mr. liebeler. so the only thing you know about mr. gregory's supposed help with oswald's book is from what you read in the newspapers, is that correct? about the fact that gregory was supposed to help oswald with his book? mr. bouhe. if he told me before, i swear i don't remember. mr. liebeler. now at the dinner at gregory's, did you converse with lee oswald and his wife, marina? mr. bouhe. i did. mr. liebeler. would you tell us, to the best of your recollection, what was said at that time? mr. bouhe. they were both very shy in the beginning, and to break the ice i used the age-old method of starting conversation on the subject in which the other person is interested, and since i was born in st. petersburg, and according to newspaper reports and what you hear, marina spent many, many years, or was even brought up in st. petersburg. this created in me an extraordinary interest to meet that person, for no particular political reason, but after you are gone from your hometown for some odd years you would like to see if your house is still standing or the church is broken up, or the school is still in existence, or the herring fish market still smells. mr. liebeler. you discussed those questions with marina oswald at that time? mr. bouhe. right. and also i had in my possession a rather large album of maps published in moscow and purchased by me through v. kamkin book store, washington, d.c., the album being called the "plans of st. petersburg" from the creation by peter the great in to our days, and there were dozens of maps made at regular intervals, including the last one made under the czarist regime in , which is really what i was interested in. mr. liebeler. and you discussed those maps? mr. bouhe. i took the map with me and we sat down on the floor and i asked marina, if my school here, or that thing there, and just any exchange of pleasantries on that subject. mr. liebeler. did marina tell you that she subsequently left leningrad and moved to minsk? mr. bouhe. yes. mr. liebeler. did she tell you why, either at this time or any other time? did you learn from marina why she moved from leningrad, from st. petersburg to minsk? mr. bouhe. to the best of my knowledge, i do not recall. mr. liebeler. did you discuss at that time oswald's trip to the soviet union? let me ask you this, mr. bouhe. did you discuss--let's not just limit your discussion in this regard to the first meeting, but looking back over your entire knowledge of oswald, when i ask you these questions as to what you discussed at these meetings with him, and let's cover your discussions with oswald and your knowledge of his background, and we will go back and pick up the other times when you met him. let me ask you if you at this time or subsequent meetings discussed with oswald the reasons for him going to the soviet union? mr. bouhe. i did not at that meeting. mr. liebeler. did you subsequently discuss with him? mr. bouhe. i did not discuss it because i know i will antagonize him, and i could get a conclusion of my own, right or wrong, and my conclusion on that is that he is, if i may so call him, a rebel against society. meaning, even if it is good, "i don't like it." that conclusion came into my head after maybe a few weeks, and after i first met him, because i got dizzy following his movements. either he goes into the marines, voluntarily apparently, then he quits. that is no good. he goes into the football team in his high school, and he quits. he doesn't like that. mr. liebeler. did he tell you that? mr. bouhe. not about a football team, but in the marines he said he didn't like it. mr. liebeler. where did you learn about the football? mr. bouhe. in the press after the assassination. mr. liebeler. let's confine your conversations just to what you learned from him or what you inferred yourself from observing oswald. let me ask you specifically if oswald ever discussed with you the job that he had while he was in the soviet union? mr. bouhe. only i could pull out fragmentary information, and frankly i didn't press him because he was sort of reluctant to talk. i don't remember what he really said, except that he worked in a sheet metal factory. but what i was interested and asked frequently is, what is the economic aspect and the social aspect of life of a man like he in the soviet union. mr. liebeler. did you ask him how much he was paid for his work? mr. bouhe. yes. mr. liebeler. did he tell you? mr. bouhe. well, he certainly did tell me, and i think he said rubles. mr. liebeler. did he tell you that that was all the income that he had while he was in russia? mr. bouhe. that was all he said, and he even went further when i asked him, "well, out of that, what do you have to pay out?" well, he says, "the rent was free." so he didn't pay for the rent. i said, "what did you get as rent?" "well, it was an old factory building." i don't know what he called old, or if it was a big room separated by a flimsy partition. mr. liebeler. this is the place where he lived? mr. bouhe. that's correct. mr. liebeler. did you have a feeling, or did he tell you, did he have quarters similar to the ordinary russian people who have similar jobs, or did he appear to have better quarters? mr. bouhe. that i did not ask him. but i wanted to go through rubles, if that was the figure, and see what you can get, and so he comes out, that i remember, and brings me a pair of shoes or boots which he bought, cracked-up leather uppers. mr. liebeler. pretty sad pair of boots? mr. bouhe. pretty sad pair of boots here, and the tops--which were famous for russian boots for generations, which were originally all leather and protected you against the wintry blasts, rain and so on--were now of duck or canvas painted black. well, from a distance, it looked like a pair of high leather boots, but they were awful, and even he, in a strange moment said, "they are no good." mr. liebeler. did he tell you how much they cost? mr. bouhe. if i am not mistaken, rubles, but i would not swear to that. mr. liebeler. did you continue those discussions and have him go through the entire rubles as to what he spent it on? mr. bouhe. that very same evening i noticed that he didn't like to talk about it, but since he was in a nice home maybe he was polite on one of his rare occasions. mr. liebeler. this conversation all took place at the home of peter gregory? mr. bouhe. in the home of mr. gregory. i asked him, "now rubles you got. rent is free. boots are rubles--and i can't imagine what it is in minsk when it rains--what about the food?" and that figure i remember distinctly. in the cafeteria or whatever that was where the laborers eat, it cost him, he said, rubles a month to eat. so and , and just to mention a couple of items, i didn't go any further because either he was lying or else he was going without shoes and coats or something because there was not enough money left to buy. mr. liebeler. did you ask him whether the rubles of which he spoke was all the money he received while he was in russia? mr. bouhe. i did not ask that question; no. mr. liebeler. but it appeared to you from this discussion that he must have received more or else he was going without certain items, is that correct? mr. bouhe. well, it would so appear, but i could not ask him. i said, " minus , minus , what is left?" no answer. but i could not press him because it was a social gathering and i couldn't cross-examine. mr. liebeler. you never discussed that question with him subsequently, is that correct? mr. bouhe. not his budget. i did discuss the cost of other items. for instance, he had a portable radio. mr. liebeler. did you see that? mr. bouhe. yes; i did. most awful production. he also had a gramophone and records. mr. liebeler. did you ask him how much the radio cost? mr. bouhe. if i did, i don't remember. i probably did, but i honestly don't remember. but it was a small one. i had somebody to look at it and he said it is a most awful construction. but anyway, i also saw a pair of shoes of marina's which she bought there, and i would say they were not worth much as far as the wearing qualities are concerned, but how much they paid for it, i don't know. and what she was earning, i do not know. mr. liebeler. did you discuss with oswald his membership in a hunting club in the soviet union? mr. bouhe. i never discussed a membership in any organization or hunting club. but i now remember that when i asked him after the week's work is done, what do you do--"well, the boys and i go and hunt duck." and he said, "ducklings". the reason why i remember it is because he didn't say "duck," but he said in russian the equivalent of "duckys-duckys". mr. liebeler. he used the russian word that was not the precise word to describe duck? mr. bouhe. yes; but a man going shooting would not use it. he spoke in russian and did not try to get the russian word exactly. mr. liebeler. did he tell you how many times he went hunting? mr. bouhe. no, sir. mr. liebeler. did he tell you whether he owned a gun? mr. bouhe. there? mr. liebeler. yes; in the soviet union. mr. bouhe. no, sir. mr. liebeler. did he tell you whether he had to pay any charges in connection with his hunting trips? mr. bouhe. no; never asked. was never told. mr. liebeler. did oswald tell you anything about the details of his trip to indicate that he actually had gone hunting, that you can remember? mr. bouhe. no, sir. mr. liebeler. did you believe him when he told you he had gone hunting? mr. bouhe. i thought of him as a simpleton, but at that time i had no reason to suspect his lying. mr. liebeler. now as far as you knew, he did actually go hunting when he was in russia? mr. bouhe. that is what he said. mr. liebeler. that didn't surprise you at that time? mr. bouhe. no; that is one of the occupations. mr. liebeler. now, did he ever discuss with you his relation with the soviet government, how he got along with them and what he thought of the soviet government? mr. bouhe. i have never asked him. he never volunteered it. and much as i'd like to assist you further, i swear again i never discussed or heard him volunteer any such thing. mr. liebeler. did he tell you why he decided to come back from russia? mr. bouhe. he did say once, and i hate to talk about a dead man, what i thought shedding a crocodile tear, "it would be good for my daughter to be brought up in the united states." mr. liebeler. is that the only reason that he ever told you about why he wanted to come back to the united states? mr. bouhe. substantially. i cannot think of anything else besides the fact that most of us who spoke with him have an impression, and the russian people are very subject to easy impressions, is that marina was hell-bent to go out of the soviet union and into america. and i think one of the ladies said "why," and i remember through third hand a report reached me, "i always wanted to have a room of my own." mr. liebeler. do you remember who told you that? mr. bouhe. mrs. anna meller. mr. liebeler. did you get the impression that marina married oswald just to get out of the soviet union? mr. bouhe. i cannot say that that was the only reason. mr. liebeler. do you think it was one of the reasons? mr. bouhe. oh, yes. mr. liebeler. did she tell you that? mr. bouhe. she was saying marina wanted to come to america. mr. liebeler. and you gathered the impression that that was one of the reasons why marina married oswald? mr. bouhe. only after. mr. liebeler. well, did you gain an impression as to whether marina wanted to marry oswald, that that was one of the reasons why she married oswald? mr. bouhe. that is my impression. my impression. but i wasn't there. mr. liebeler. you don't remember anyone telling you that that was one of the reasons? that is to say, neither marina or oswald told you? mr. bouhe. certainly not oswald. but just a minute, much as i'd like to say, i do not recall a direct statement to that effect, but marina liked to look at magazines, she said, and cadillacs and iceboxes and this and that, and from what i understood her talk, she was just itching to get in on that. now that is my impression, and god strike me if i say something wrong about her, but that is my impression. mr. liebeler. did oswald tell you that he traveled inside the soviet union while he was there? mr. bouhe. i do not recall any mention or conversation. mr. liebeler. did he ever tell you that he had gone to moscow on two or three different occasions from minsk? mr. bouhe. well, i don't know what the occasions were or the number of them, but he certainly must have gone to apply at the american embassy in moscow at some period of time to return. mr. liebeler. but he didn't tell you that, as far as you can recall? mr. bouhe. i do not recall. mr. liebeler. did oswald mention that he had received any training while he was in the soviet union? that he had gone to school or received any special train from the soviet government of any kind? mr. bouhe. i do not recall anything, any statement by him on that subject. mr. liebeler. did he tell you that he had been in the hospital while he was in the soviet union? mr. bouhe. no. mr. liebeler. did you speak to oswald in the russian language from time to time? mr. bouhe. yes; i did. mr. liebeler. did you form an impression as to his command of that language? mr. bouhe. yes. mr. liebeler. what was that impression? mr. bouhe. a very strange assortment of words. grammatically not perfect, but an apparent ease to express himself in that language. mr. liebeler. did you know when you knew oswald how long he had been in the soviet union, approximately? mr. bouhe. that i knew from a clipping which i have at home, from the fort worth newspaper, yes, which first brought the name of oswald before my eyes sometime in june . and that story said the fort worth boy returns after so many years, and so on. mr. liebeler. did oswald's command of the russian language seem to be about what you would expect from him, having been in russia for that period of time? would you say it was good? mr. bouhe. i would say very good. mr. liebeler. you think he had a good command of the language, considering the amount of time he had spent in russia? mr. bouhe. sir, for everyday conversations, yes. but i think that if i would have asked him to write, i would think he would have difficulty. mr. liebeler. when did you get the impression that he received any special training in the russian language while he was in the soviet union? mr. bouhe. never heard of it. mr. liebeler. you did not get that impression? mr. bouhe. i did not get it, but back in the old country, in the good old days in st. petersburg, which was cosmopolitan, everybody spoke french--well, some from in school and some from governesses and some from trips to paris, and that is supposed to be the best way to learn the language, so i would say from my estimate of the caliber of his language is that he picked it up by ear from marina, other girls, or from factory workers. mr. liebeler. you also conversed with marina in russian, did you not? mr. bouhe. oh, yes; she is very good, i must say, to my great amazement. mr. liebeler. much better than oswald? was marina's command of the russian language better than what you would have expected, based on her education? mr. bouhe. yes. mr. liebeler. did you ever ask her how she came to have such a good command of the language? mr. bouhe. well, i did not ask her in the form of a question. i complimented her, because most of the displaced persons whom we met here who went through wars and mixtures and germany and french speak a very, very broken unpolished russian, which i tried to perfect. and i complimented her on that. you are speaking in amazingly grammatical--maybe i said, i don't know--correct language. and she said, "my grandmother who raised me--i don't know what period--she was an educated woman. she went to--and she gave me a school for noble girls." something like, i don't know--are you a dallas man--perhaps bryn mawr. mr. liebeler. some prominent school? mr. bouhe. yes. the grandmother was a graduate, and she gave me the name, which is a top school. and when you come out of that school as a young girl, you are polished--smolny institute for noble girls. and also, marina said, that the contact with her grandmother influenced her a little bit on the study of religion. and whether she believes or does not, i do not know, but she was not an agnostic, in her words. what is in her soul, i don't know. mr. liebeler. did you form an impression as to the girl's character of marina oswald throughout the time that you knew her? mr. bouhe. yes; i did. mr. liebeler. what do you think of her general character? tell us about that. let me ask you to confine your answer first, mr. bouhe, to the judgments about marina that you had formed prior to the time of the assassination, and then i will ask you if you changed those judgments or amplified them after the event of the assassination. but first of all, tell us your general impression of marina oswald as you thought of her prior to november , . mr. bouhe. all right, and essentially what i will say is prior to about december , , because i have not met any of them since. it seemed to me that she was a lost soul, as i understood without investigating the girl, no papa, no mama, no home, i don't know who they were, brought up by probably an old grandmother, born perhaps at the time of the greatest holocaust that existed there from , , and , when leningrad was surrounded by germans and there was a great deal of privation, hunger, and, i heard, even cannibalism. maybe she was thinking that this is an awful place and she would have to do whatever she could to get out. maybe she was partly influenced by her grandmother who, i would say, is of the old school, but i don't know. and i think she must have been looking for that opportunity which presented itself in minsk. so i think she is a very thinking person, but what her ultimate goal was or is, i cannot guess even now. mr. liebeler. did you tell the fbi that you thought marina was a product of the soviet machine and that all initiative had been removed from her? mr. bouhe. i certainly don't remember if i said that, those specific words, but that is what i believe. if you are educated by the soviet regime, in their schools, i think you don't think anything of your own, which is substantially what i said, isn't it, or is it not? mr. liebeler. yes; she had had all initiative removed from her. mr. bouhe. except a romantic initiative to get a man and do something about it. mr. liebeler. now, did you change your opinion or did you expand your opinion of marina oswald upon reflection after the assassination occurred? mr. bouhe. i could only add that i probably think her a person of exceedingly strong character to go through that very sad set of events without going berserk. she has a character. now whether it is directed in the right thing or not, i don't know. i want to say, i think she is good material to become a useful citizen, but to figure out a woman, i do not volunteer as an expert. mr. liebeler. during the period in october and november of , when, as i recall it, marina and lee oswald were having a certain amount of marital trouble or difficulties, did you say that you gained marina's confidence about those matters? mr. bouhe. not i. mr. liebeler. she didn't tell you about her marital difficulties with oswald? mr. bouhe. no; she talked to other people who told me. mr. liebeler. who were these other women? mr. bouhe. well, certainly to anna meller. mr. liebeler. mrs. ford? mr. bouhe. mrs. ford, undoubtedly. mr. liebeler. do you think she confided in anna ray to any extent? mr. bouhe. could have, although i was not present, but they had long sessions together, just girls. mr. liebeler. you spoke about these parties with mrs. ford and anna meller and anna ray. mr. bouhe. well, the only time i have been bringing that up is when i saw or heard that she had a black eye. mr. liebeler. when did you see that? mr. bouhe. i would say within the first weeks of september. one saturday several of us arrived at their house. mr. liebeler. at oswald's house? mr. bouhe. yes. mr. liebeler. where was that house located at that time? mr. bouhe. on mercedes street. mr. liebeler. in fort worth? mr. bouhe. yes; and she had a black eye. and not thinking about anything unfortunate, i said: "well, did you run into a bathroom door?" marina said, "oh, no, he hit me." mr. liebeler. was oswald there at that time? mr. bouhe. no. mr. liebeler. did marina tell you the details of her argument with oswald? mr. bouhe. no; maybe the dinner wasn't ready or this wasn't or something. mr. liebeler. she didn't tell you the details though at that time? mr. bouhe. no. mr. liebeler. you said that you noticed another black eye. did you see marina with bruises on her at a time prior to this time in september? mr. bouhe. yes. mr. liebeler. when was that? did she appear bruised at mr. gregory's party? mr. bouhe. oh, no; that was when she ran away from oswald, probably in the middle of november, already in oak cliff here in dallas. she called at o'clock at night mrs. anna meller from a gasoline station and said, "he is beating me up and here i am with the baby and no diaper and no nothing, and so on, what can i do?" well, if you talk to mrs. anna meller, you will see that she is a plain, very attractive woman with a big heart, and what could she say but "come over." mr. liebeler. mrs. meller told marina to come over to her house? mr. bouhe. right. that was o'clock at night. mr. liebeler. marina went to mrs. meller's and stayed there about a week? mr. bouhe. about a week. mr. liebeler. and subsequently she went to mrs. ford's house? mr. bouhe. yes. mr. liebeler. and you took her there to mrs. ford? mr. bouhe. i did take her, with the baby and the playpen, and mrs. anna meller drove over with us to mrs. katya ford's, i think, on a saturday or sunday, because mrs. ford volunteered that since the meller's had a very small apartment, to take marina for a week because her husband, declan p. ford, was attending the american association of petroleum geologists convention in houston for the whole week and she could bring her over for a week. mr. liebeler. that was in november of ? mr. bouhe. i would say october, but i would not swear. do you know it is november? mr. liebeler. yes, it was november to , , according to mrs. ford. mr. bouhe. well then, it was, if mrs. ford said so, and the only double check i can make is to check, when was the american association of petroleum geologists convention in houston. mr. liebeler. i don't know, but that is a matter that mrs. ford can testify. your recollection was, it would have been in october, is that correct? mr. bouhe. yes; because they moved from--she is probably right. mr. liebeler. let's go into that just a little bit. when, according to your recollection, did oswald move from fort worth to dallas? mr. bouhe. all right; i would say on or about--that is oswald--october , . mr. liebeler. did oswald talk to you at that time? mr. bouhe. oh, yes. mr. liebeler. what did he say? what were the circumstances of that conversation? mr. bouhe. well, we were at their house at the end of september or first days of october. maybe it was--in other words, a few of us were at the house of oswald on an afternoon. i presume it must have been a saturday. mr. liebeler. who was there, mr. bouhe? mr. bouhe. it was probably mrs. anna meller, myself, possibly mrs. hall in fact i know--mrs. elena hall of fort worth, because i remember distinctly that lee oswald came home and said his job had ended, wherever he was working at in fort worth, and no prospects for another job existed. the rent was already a few days past due and they had to do something. mr. liebeler. did oswald tell you he had been fired from his job in fort worth? mr. bouhe. no. he said it was a temporary job anyway. that he did say. firing, i never heard. so at that time mrs. hall--that russian lady--said, "my husband is away. marina, you move over to my house with the kid, and he goes to dallas to look for a job." for some reason, i would say it must have been around october or . that would be my guess. mr. liebeler. did you help oswald find a job in dallas? mr. bouhe. i was a little bit already cautious because his conversation with me was always very abrupt and he never looked me in the eye. and to me, this is a criterion that we don't see eye to eye, i guess. and i said, the only way to start here is go to the texas employment commission, which he did. mr. liebeler. did he tell you that he had been there? mr. bouhe. yes; he did. mr. liebeler. do you have any other way of knowing that he was there? mr. bouhe. i think we asked a lady we knew there--not i, because i didn't know her well enough--to help him if she could to get him a job. mr. liebeler. who asked her? mr. bouhe. mr. teofil meller. mr. liebeler. do you remember the lady's name? mr. bouhe. mrs. cunningham. mr. liebeler. did mr. meller tell you that he had talked to mrs. cunningham? mr. bouhe. yes; he did. mr. liebeler. what did he tell you? mr. bouhe. he told mrs. cunningham--he is a ph. d., a very kind man--he said he didn't know the man from adam, but he has a wife and a little baby, and if he can get a job it would help the family to get on their feet. mr. liebeler. did you learn that oswald subsequently did obtain a job in dallas? mr. bouhe. yes, i did. and as a person who at that time suspected nothing except that i had a desire if i could, to put him on his feet economically so he could support his wife and child--i said, now those were my words, "lee, you've now got a job, a lithographic job at a $ . an hour as an apprentice. if you apply yourself"--those were my very words--"in a couple years you'll have a skill that can be saleable any place." and he said, "you think so." and he didn't even say thank you. then i added, "well, i would like to hear how you get along," which is a standard statement i would ask anybody. and for or --or possibly days thereafter he would call me at o'clock, i guess when he finished his work, and say, "i am doing fine. bye." mr. liebeler. that would be the extent of his conversation with you on the telephone? mr. bouhe. yes. mr. liebeler. he didn't tell you anything of the details of his work? mr. bouhe. i did not ask. mr. liebeler. did you know where---- mr. bouhe. wait a second, maybe i did ask and, well, he said it was some photographic process in the lithographic business, but i don't know what that means. mr. liebeler. did you know where oswald lived when he moved to dallas? mr. bouhe. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. where? mr. bouhe. ymca on ervay street. mr. liebeler. do you know how long he lived there? mr. bouhe. i certainly would be willing to bet that he lived there from about october the th or th, i am sorry, about october , which is a monday, until about october . but that latter figure i do not know myself except from an fbi agent who told me he checked out on the th, but that i do know. mr. liebeler. do you know where he moved when he checked out of the ymca? mr. bouhe. at some point thereabouts he threw at me when i asked, "where do you live now?" he gave me, if i recall correctly, a name of the carlton boarding house on madison avenue, but it proved to be wrong. mr. liebeler. did you tell the fbi that he told you he lived at the carlton boarding house? mr. bouhe. yes. mr. liebeler. the fbi checked it out and told you subsequently that he had not lived there? mr. bouhe. that's correct. the fbi men went there, and it developed that oswald told me a lie to send me on a wild goose chase, but the name strikes me somehow; and fbi rechecked this place and said it was a bum steer. mr. liebeler. as far as you know, the next place that oswald lived after he moved out of the ymca was in the oak cliff section of dallas? mr. bouhe. madison is around the corner from somewhere he ultimately lived. mr. liebeler. he ultimately lived at elsbeth? mr. bouhe. and on my card i have a date of november the d, , that he found this apartment and moved there, but that i heard from others because by that time i lost all communication with them; didn't talk to him; didn't ask him anything, and he didn't call me. mr. liebeler. that would have been in november , would it not, mr. bouhe, that he moved to the apartment you are speaking of? mr. bouhe. yes; and i would say that is pretty good because i think the fbi agent told me they proved that, or something. mr. liebeler. did you ever visit the oswald apartment at elsbeth street? mr. bouhe. i never did. mr. liebeler. did you ever visit their apartment at no. neely street? mr. bouhe. never even knew where it was. never did. mr. liebeler. at any time after november and prior to december , , did you see or talk to oswald? december is the date of the ford party. mr. bouhe. yes. mr. liebeler. from november to december ? mr. bouhe. i would say that by some unanticipated chance i might have run into him and her or both at the de mohrenschildt's, but i wouldn't swear. let me add that certainly no communication was maintained on my part. mr. liebeler. did you see marina during that period of time, however? mr. bouhe. once or twice. mr. liebeler. you have already testified that you moved her from anna meller's to the ford's house, and that would have been in november of , would it not? mr. bouhe. oh, yes; that is right. that is right. then maybe i said something that i shouldn't have said. in november i told they moved to elsbeth. then a week later she ran to anna meller. mr. liebeler. you previously testified that you thought that marina had lived with the ford's during october, but now it is a fact, is it not, that when marina moved to the fords and when she moved to stay with anna meller, she moved from the apartment in oak cliff, did she not? mr. bouhe. yes. mr. liebeler. it must have been november because your recollection is she didn't move to the oak cliff area until november, is that right? mr. bouhe. yes. that is a slip of the tongue. mr. liebeler. did you see marina during the month of november ? mr. bouhe. i don't remember seeing her during that period of time except in moving her from mellers to fords. if i ran into him or her once at the de mohrenschildt's, that is the maximum. mr. liebeler. you didn't see him at anytime when you saw marina when she was moving from the mellers to the fords? mr. bouhe. oh, no. mr. liebeler. he wasn't around at that time? mr. bouhe. no, sir. mr. liebeler. a few minutes ago i asked you about your judgment of marina oswald's character and we had an off-the-record discussion. would you repeat for us that discussion, the statement you made off the record at that time, and recapitulate for us your thoughts on marina oswald. mr. bouhe. i think she is a well brought up girl. by that i mean, from my calculation, that she had received a good care from some old person of the old regime. religious, well mannered, and such. she liked glitter, fun, maybe, just like any young pretty girl of that age would, probably, but i think she was also a driver and ambitious about it. even by looking at her, i would say that in the small size you would not think she would. and it seems to me that she followed that line by meeting oswald, coaxing him to come to america, and so as, she told me herself, she could write a postal card to her old girl friends "watch me sail to america." mr. liebeler. you mentioned in your off-the-record discussion that you had thought to yourself isn't it possible that marina is a great actress. mr. bouhe. there again she acts so natural that i was disarmed. but at this stage of the game, maybe i was a fool. mr. liebeler. why do you say that, mr. bouhe? mr. bouhe. maybe she is a superagent of some organization. mr. liebeler. did you have any reason to think that prior to the time of the assassination? mr. bouhe. certainly not. never entered into my head. mr. liebeler. but it has entered into your head since the assassination, is that correct? mr. bouhe. well, after that, you think of anything. mr. liebeler. but there was nothing about marina's behavior as you observed it prior to the assassination that led you to think that? mr. bouhe. positively nothing. but we did in the russian colony have conversations. we were repeatedly amazed at the ease with which marina left the u.s.s.r., which we, who know the setup on the other side, is almost incredible. american, british, and other diplomats married russian girls and it took them years to get their wives out. and at one moment i did ask, i think, both of them. mr. liebeler. asked who? mr. bouhe. both of them lee and marina. "well, it is certainly unusual that they let you out. how did you do it?" it was a completely innocent question at that time. "well, we just went to the right office." and they in the office said, "all right, take it away," or something to that effect in russian. mr. liebeler. now did you have any discussions with other friends of yours here in dallas as to whether or not oswald was possibly an agent of the u.s.s.r.? and i want you to confine your answer to the time prior to the assassination. mr. bouhe. the majority of our russian background colony having suffered very much under the soviet and hitler rule, even after and or more years of good peace and comparative prosperity in this country, are still constantly on the suspicion of anything that comes from russia. many of them shook heads, saying, well, i don't know, maybe he is a soviet spy. at least i came to a conclusion, right or wrong, that the man came to the american embassy in moscow asking for the permit to return to his native land. it took years of something to process that application. to me, these years meant that probably it is not only paperwork between the moscow embassy and russia, but probably some investigation. therefore, i felt that whatever investigating agency of the united states, whether it is secret service, cia, or anybody else concerned with repatriation with such a suspicious character, took their good little time of years to process his return back to the united states. that processed his right to bring his wife and also gave them some odd dollars to come here because they didn't have any money. at this point i want to state that when mr. gregory invited me to dinner the first time, i checked with mr. max clark as an attorney friend to the effect that is this a sort of a cloudy deal, and i am sticking my neck out in my meeting the person? and after a couple of days, i don't remember exactly mr. clark's answer, but there were words to the effect that since he was processed through the proper channels, apparently there is nothing wrong, but you have to be careful. i think these were the words. then i accepted the invitation for dinner. mr. liebeler. now did other members of the russian colony express to you the thought that oswald might have been a russian agent? mr. bouhe. i would say, based on pure emotions and bred-in suspicions, yes. mr. liebeler. can you tell me who expressed those thoughts to you? mr. bouhe. well, i don't know who said that, but i really don't remember who said that, because there was so much talk. but probably it was mentioned. mr. liebeler. you don't remember specifically who mentioned it? mr. bouhe. i wish i knew, and if i think, i will tell you, but i don't. and i am not hiding anything. mr. liebeler. you attended a party at the home of mr. and mrs. declan p. ford on december , , did you not? and mr. and mrs. oswald were there, were they not? mr. bouhe. right; uninvited. mr. liebeler. de mohrenschildt was there, was he not, and his wife? mr. bouhe. right. mr. liebeler. was there any discussion at that party on the question of whether or not oswald was or could be a russian agent? mr. bouhe. that party is very vivid in my memory. all of a sudden toward late in the evening appeared george de mohrenschildt and his wife, accompanied by oswald and marina. i could almost hear a gasp among some of the people who were around me. i can almost for certain say that during that evening until the de mohrenschildt's took him back home, if i got a human hello from oswald, that was the extent of my conversation, and i exchanged maybe half a dozen words with marina who said, "nice to see you again." i would say that would be the extent of that conversation. at that party we were especially astounded that after having a couple of drinks and without seeing oswald talk extensively to anybody except maybe circulate from one to another, he spotted a japanese girl. and if i recall correctly, any time i would look any place, he was with her. marina circulated a little bit, ate very heartily, and everybody, so to speak, commented that such a little girl had so many helpings, apparently she didn't have very many good things to eat before. then toward midnight there was a little singing with a guitar, you know, russians like to sing, piano and guitar, three or four voices. oswald, i remember, looked from the doorway, did not come. marina came finally feeling better, came and stood around for a moment or two. "nice it is here," she said, and that was the end. mr. liebeler. after the oswalds left, did any of the people at the party discuss the question of whether or not oswald might have been an agent of the u.s.s.r.? mr. bouhe. no, sir; but i do know that one or two men with whom oswald spoke, or at least one man, got up in a hurry, and i heard him say clearly, "my god, what an idiot that is." mr. liebeler. who was that man? mr. bouhe. lev aronson, chief first cello, dallas symphony orchestra. mr. liebeler. did mr. aronson speak to oswald? is that why he thought oswald was an idiot? mr. bouhe. i am not a buddy-buddy of his. mr. liebeler. and you didn't hear why aronson thought oswald was an idiot? mr. bouhe. no. mr. liebeler. after the party at the fords, there was a get-together at the mellers residence sometime before that weekend. were you present at that party? mr. bouhe. not with oswald. mr. liebeler. i didn't say oswald was there. but there was a group of people who got together at the mellers either the next day or the day after? mr. bouhe. i do not recall that. but they are my close friends of a long time and i am almost sure i must have been there. mr. liebeler. do you remember any discussion at that party about the question of whether or not oswald might be a russian agent? mr. bouhe. no. mr. liebeler. there was also an open-house at your own apartment during that period of time, was there not? mr. bouhe. i think there were occasional parties. no discussions about oswald being a russian agent. mr. liebeler. at any time during the period december for the next few days? mr. bouhe. to the best of my recollection, as far as i am concerned, well, whether others talked, i don't know. mr. liebeler. but you didn't hear anybody talking about it? mr. bouhe. not to my hearing. mr. liebeler. do you remember saying that oswald was essentially a mental case? mr. bouhe. well, in the words of mr. aronson, i would say that mental case, that means he is crazy. that is what i meant. mr. liebeler. do you remember using those words at any time during the period december and the few days following that day? mr. bouhe. that i do not remember, but there is a good russian word when you act crazy, we say, "my god, you are crazy." but that i do not remember. mr. liebeler. do you remember suggesting to oswald that he attend some school and study to attempt to improve his ability? mr. bouhe. right. mr. liebeler. when was that? mr. bouhe. that was most probably the first week of october when he moved here, october . mr. liebeler. do you remember what he said to you in response? mr. bouhe. yes. "what kind of school do they have?" and i said, "crozier evening technical school, which is a dallas board of education deal, has subjects for grown-ups to improve their skill, whether it is academic things, languages, or whether you want to make lampshades." mr. liebeler. do you know whether oswald ever went to crozier tech? mr. bouhe. i do not. he did not tell me anything, but a secret service agent from los angeles called me and asked what school could he have gone to, and i said we have only one. mr. liebeler. that was crozier tech? mr. bouhe. that is called dallas evening public school. mr. liebeler. did you ever see any periodicals or similar literature or magazines that oswald subscribed to in his apartment? mr. bouhe. american or russian? mr. liebeler. of any nature. mr. bouhe. certainly i saw a lot of russian magazines, but whether or not he subscribed or bought occasionally or somebody sent them, i do not know. mr. liebeler. do you remember the names of any of them? let me ask you was "agitator" one of them? mr. bouhe. never saw. mr. liebeler. how about "crocodile"? mr. bouhe. unfortunately; yes, sir. mr. liebeler. do you remember the name of any others? mr. bouhe. yes; i think it is called "o-g-o-n-e-k." means, "little fire." mr. liebeler. do you remember any other russian periodicals that you saw in oswald's possession? mr. bouhe. something about the sports, because you always could see a russian magazine open there with pictures on life in the soviet union. mr. liebeler. do you know whether he subscribed or regularly read a periodical called "the worker"? mr. bouhe. never saw a copy in the house. mr. liebeler. how about "the militant"? mr. bouhe. never saw any such article, magazine. mr. liebeler. did you ever have occasion to notice any books on political subjects in oswald's home? mr. bouhe. oh, yes. mr. liebeler. tell us about that. mr. bouhe. oswald had a little table in his apartment on mercedes street in fort worth. i cannot remember the exact names, but certainly karl marx, lenin and his works, and similar things which i do not remember. and i positively, being aghast at such an assortment, flipped over the first two-three pages, and i think in two out of three i saw the stamp of the fort worth public library. mr. liebeler. did you ever discuss with oswald the fact that these books were in his apartment? mr. bouhe. no. mr. liebeler. did he ever say anything to you about them? mr. bouhe. no. mr. liebeler. did you ever discuss politics with oswald? mr. bouhe. american politics? mr. liebeler. yes; politics of any kind, or economics? that is, his attitude toward the u.s. government and toward the russian government? mr. bouhe. after the first or second visit i saw he was a mixed-up man. i did not touch any of these subjects. mr. liebeler. did you discuss them with him during the first two or three times that you saw him? mr. bouhe. the only thing i discussed the first two or three times i saw him was pure consumer economics for a person living in the soviet union, meaning how much are the shoes and how much is kleenex and things like that. mr. liebeler. you didn't discuss subjects like the social system or the economic system of the u.s.s.r.? mr. bouhe. i knew he was stuck on it and knew i wasn't. mr. liebeler. and how did you know he was stuck on it? mr. bouhe. he was always smirking and occasionally dropping remarks, "well, with us in the soviet union," meaning some preference, whether it is free rent or free medical care. for instance, he said, "marina had a bad tooth, so we went to some place in moscow waiting for the visa, and they took the tooth out but they didn't put another one in." he said, "we didn't have time." whether that is right or wrong, i don't know. mr. liebeler. did oswald ever indicate that he wanted to return to russia? mr. bouhe. not during the time i knew him; positively not. mr. liebeler. did you ever ask him in words or substance if he thought russia was so good, why didn't he go back? mr. bouhe. no; i didn't, because i think he began to hate me very early. mr. liebeler. why do you say that, mr. bouhe? mr. bouhe. i had made well in the united states by sheer work. i have enough to live nicely and help others if i wish. the sense of charity is very deep in me. marina and the child, the latter sleeping on the floor, attracted me very much. as i repeated to the fbi and secret service many times, while they were not relatives of mine, i still felt that if i enjoy a good automobile and a good meal and if i know around the corner somebody's kid is sleeping on the floor, i will not digest that dinner so very good. so being endowed with what i thought was boundless energy, when i saw the situation, i thought i would make an effort the first time to put them on their feet. i always thought that communism breeds among the down and out and the dissatisfied people. i certainly felt badly that there were no groceries in their icebox and the kid was sleeping on the floor and all that. i thought that by, so to speak, putting a little meat on his bones, lift the kid into bed, buy a little clothes for the kid, meanwhile assembling from all of the ladies some clothes for marina, who was in rags, i thought i will make him less bitter which he was, and he will see, as i told him, that it can be done here if you apply yourself. and i added to him, "lee, i am exceedingly uneasy from being a foreigner by birth, telling you, a native-born american, that you can lift yourself by your own boot strap here and live a decent life because the opportunities are here if you just only take advantage of them." well, his handicap was, he never had any skill. that is true. marines, no skill. sheet-metal work, i don't know if that was true in russia. he didn't know anything. i understood from other people that when he went to the texas employment commission in fort worth to ask for a job and they said what can you do--nothing. where did you work last--minsk. let's call it off. he couldn't progress. he couldn't get any place. so this is maybe facetious on my part and i admit it, but my policy in this thing was substantially the policy of the u.s. government as i see it. when we see that the cambodians are leaning towards communism because they are barefooted, we'll rush in with all kinds of food, groceries, and rehabilitation equipment to see if they can get on their feet. i did exactly that, as i saw it. mr. liebeler. did oswald seem to appreciate your efforts? mr. bouhe. no; he passed a remark shortly after the second or third visit to their house when the ladies and i brought the clothes to marina and such--i even brought two shirts for him--not new, used, and that is where i saw him for the first time trying to show his displeasure over me. he measured and he remeasured the shirts so many times, and those were not new shirts. finally i said, "lee, this is to go-to-work. wear them or days, get them dirty, then throw them away." so finally he folded it up and gave it back to me. "i don't need any." then i understand he objected that myself and a couple of others brought groceries to the kid and something for them when the icebox was empty. i took him and marina once to a supermarket, partly for the groceries and partly for an educational purpose to explain that this is ajax and this is kleenex and this is the economy size, and this is junior size, and how much per ounce, just to open her eyes. mr. liebeler. did you buy groceries for the oswalds at any time? mr. bouhe. once. mr. liebeler. do you remember how much? mr. bouhe. ten dollars. mr. liebeler. could you tell us approximately how much you spent on the oswalds? mr. bouhe. $ . you can make a list, if you wish, because i want to tell you. mr. liebeler. go ahead. mr. bouhe. probably groceries, $ . i gave him a $ bill for the bus fare from fort worth to dallas on some subsequent sunday. i did not know the exact amount of the fare. and when he arrived here and i met him i said, "was that enough?" he said, "oh, yes." but he didn't give me any change. i remember that. then i bought at montgomery ward a playpen for about $ for the kid. i bought a pair of moccasins for marina, in the presence of another lady, at montgomery wards for $ , and since she was without stockings, we had to run and get a pair of stockings because they wouldn't let her measure moccasins without stockings. i also gave de mohrenschildt $ and i got back $ or $ for them to take marina to the baylor school of dentistry right here in dallas where students of the senior class practice on people who cannot afford to go to the regular dentist. and since de mohrenschildt had a lot of time and his wife had a lot of time, they were taking marina there probably two or three times. and i think de mohrenschildt gave me a couple of dollars back. mr. liebeler. do you remember if de mohrenschildt spent any money on oswald? mr. bouhe. i have no idea. mr. liebeler. what about any others, as far as you know? mr. bouhe. in cash, i do not recall anybody, but in groceries, in clothes, used, not new, yes. mr. liebeler. who else gave such things to the oswalds? mr. bouhe. through me, i collected--mrs. meller gave, i am sure mrs. ford gave, i can't remember now; possibly mrs. hall. those were used clothes. mr. liebeler. this all took place prior to the time oswald moved to dallas, did it? mr. bouhe. the clothing and grocery contributions, yes, and the dentist, no. mr. liebeler. you say the dental work was done after oswald moved to dallas? mr. bouhe. after, because she was living then with mrs. hall in fort worth weeks. that means the period somewhere between october th. mr. liebeler. until november d? mr. bouhe. that sounds right to me. and during that period she came, i'd say, once or twice or maybe three times. she had a lot of teeth rotted to the roots, and feeding the baby, we thought it was very bad, and here those student guys just love to pull. mr. liebeler. did these groceries that you speak of other people giving the oswalds, was that in addition to the groceries you purchased for them? mr. bouhe. probably if we go there, somebody will bring something, i don't remember. no regular contributions of groceries, no. mr. liebeler. did you pay oswald's rent at the ymca when he stayed there in october? mr. bouhe. no. mr. liebeler. can you think of any other financial contribution that might have been made to the oswalds during this period? mr. bouhe. well, let's say $ . i would say that is all, $ , more or less. mr. liebeler. did you ever discuss with oswald his service in the marine corps? mr. bouhe. yes. mr. liebeler. what did he tell you about that? mr. bouhe. when he was applying for a job, we picked up some kind of application blanks some place and you have to say about your military service. and where it says, "discharged." i'd ask, "how?" and he would say: "put down honorable." mr. liebeler. that was the entire extent of your discussion? mr. bouhe. right. he would freeze up like a clam. mr. liebeler. did oswald ever discuss anything about cuba with you? mr. bouhe. never heard. mr. liebeler. did you ever see any literature concerning cuba in his possession? mr. bouhe. do not recall having seen anything. mr. liebeler. did either oswald or marina ever tell you whether or not oswald was personally liked while he was in the soviet union? did he get along with the russian people? mr. bouhe. this is talking about the lady, so i want to be careful. marina said: "when i saw him, i was so sorry for him. nobody liked him. i was so sorry for him i must make him comfortable here, or something like that." mr. liebeler. that is what marina said? mr. bouhe. yes. mr. liebeler. that was her reaction to him when she met him in russia? mr. bouhe. i remember that. mr. liebeler. do you remember anything else about that? mr. bouhe. he said he went duck shooting with the boys. but whether they spoke during shooting, or just were shooting, i don't know. he was not a very talkative person. mr. liebeler. you have the impression that as a general manner he was not a popular person when he was in russia? mr. bouhe. it was my impression for more than one reason. he had a mind of his own, and i think it was a diseased one. i could not imagine with whom he would be friendly. i could not. mr. liebeler. why do you say you thought he had a diseased mind? mr. bouhe. he changed so much, from an american, to russia, and back. mr. liebeler. he never seemed to be satisfied with anything? mr. bouhe. precisely. besides, not satisfied with any place. that is the point. mr. liebeler. now did oswald ever express any resentment of the u.s. government for delaying his return to the united states? mr. bouhe. in a casual remark, yes. mr. liebeler. what did he say? mr. bouhe. well, "damn it, i don't know why it took them so long to get on the horse." mr. liebeler. the united states? mr. bouhe. "damn them, i don't know why it took them so long." mr. liebeler. that is all he said? mr. bouhe. all i can remember. mr. liebeler. did he ever express any hostilities toward any individual in the government? mr. bouhe. never heard. and i must emphasize again that to talk politics with a man like that, i would find totally hopeless and useless. i never did it. but if anybody asked me, did he have any hostility against anybody in the government, which i didn't hear myself, i would say governor connally. mr. liebeler. why do you say that? mr. bouhe. because, where, i can't find the paper, but when he was in minsk, he wrote a letter. i have it some place, but i don't know where, in the paper here. mr. liebeler. let me ask you this, mr. bouhe. did oswald tell you that he wrote a letter to governor connally? mr. bouhe. no, sir. mr. liebeler. you learned that only after reading it in the paper? mr. bouhe. absolutely. no correspondence. we didn't discuss. i would say my conversations with oswald were at rock bottom minimum. mr. liebeler. did you have any feeling before the assassination that he had any hostility toward any individual in the government? mr. bouhe. you mean as of the end of december, ? mr. liebeler. yes. mr. bouhe. i did not hear him say anything like that. but in reading this press news after the assassination, it clearly describes there the letter which he wrote from minsk to governor connally, who was at the time secretary of the navy, and told him that he wants to correct the injustice being done an ex-serviceman and citizen, and i almost see the period "as soon as possible." connally passed it to the marine corps, according to the paper, which did nothing about it. and then i think it was the newsweek magazine story which said, quoting oswald, "well, i will leave nothing undone to correct this injustice." that is what i know from the press. to me, i would say that it looks like a threat. mr. liebeler. but you don't have any knowledge of oswald's displeasure with governor connally? mr. bouhe. absolutely not. mr. liebeler. if he had any prior to the assassination? mr. bouhe. no, sir. mr. liebeler. did marina understand english when you first met her? mr. bouhe. she said no. mr. liebeler. did you have any reason to believe that she could understand english? mr. bouhe. yes; i said, well, in sort of a joking way, "well, my god, you have an american husband. didn't he teach you sweet nothings." or something like that. "oh, yes. i know i love you. come kiss me quick, or something like that." but she did not speak english. and when we spoke english in front of her, for instance, at mrs. gregory's, who is not a russian---- mr. liebeler. mrs. gregory? mr. bouhe. i said, "marina, i am sorry, but we have to say these few words in english." "oh, well, that is all right, i will learn it sometime," or something like that. mr. liebeler. but it did not appear to you that she understood english? mr. bouhe. it did not appear to me; yes. and then on that subject i have talked with you. mr. liebeler. you told us that you tried to teach her english? mr. bouhe. shortly after i saw that she is scared of him. he is a bad provider, doesn't make friends, i thought there will be a calamity in the family there sometime. and marina oswald sort of, i think, appreciated when she saw what i tried to do for her and her kid. i told marina, "if you are a brave girl, if i were you, i would prepare myself to stand on my own feet before long. but before you start anything, you have to speak english." "well, how can i learn to speak english. whenever i try to talk to lee, he always come back in russian and doesn't want me to speak english to him. this is positively so." well, i said, "will he object if i teach you on the side, so to speak?" "well," she said, "let's try". now the young gregory who is taking russian lessons at the university of oklahoma in norman, who was spending a couple of weeks at home from his studies of russian, i know he went to marina to pick up some russian lessons from her, and in exchange gave her a few pointers in english, but he was leaving for the university so i know that that system was to be short-lived. therefore i offered marina on my own volition without being asked for it, an excellent dictionary published by the u.s. government printing office in washington during world war ii as a guide for officers and generals in communicating with the russians, and was prepared, as i understand, by the elite of the russian emigre academic world in the american society. mr. liebeler. did you give this to marina and attempt to teach her the english language? mr. bouhe. yes. but how i say to read and study, you have to have perseverance. "let me try something", i said, and so on this paper i would write in russian lesson number one and start writing in big letters in russian simple sentences, "my name is marina oswald. i live in fort worth. we buy groceries on tuesday. my husband works on wednesday. this is a tropical climate." mr. liebeler. you sent those to marina and asked her to study them? mr. bouhe. with a line space in between and asked her to look at the dictionary, but don't ask anybody, and put underneath in english, which she did faithfully for approximately weeks, maybe . mr. liebeler. can you tell us approximately when this was? they were living in fort worth at that time? mr. bouhe. yes; i would say that was the last weeks in september, and maybe the beginning of october which is when she moved to mrs. hall's. i would say it was sometime between september and october . mr. liebeler. after about four of these lessons she stopped doing it, is that right? mr. bouhe. the fifth or sixth lesson did not return. now just a moment, she would write the english words. she would send it all back to me and i would correct it and in turn send it back to her, so she will see what it should have been. and incidentally, i was shown that by an fbi agent days ago, because a russian speaking fbi agent came to see me for minutes. he said, "please take a yellow pad and write 'my name is marina oswald. we live in fort worth.'" mr. liebeler. he had those lessons that you had sent to marina? mr. bouhe. i don't know what he had. all i could hear was my own words, because i have a way of speaking myself. he just showed me a photostat of one of my pages. this was it. and she made progress. mr. liebeler. she seemed to be a good student of english; is that correct? mr. bouhe. the first four or five lessons, for two or three pages each. she made a good headway. mr. liebeler. did she ever come to your house to study russian? mr. bouhe. no, sir. mr. liebeler. do you know if she ever went to visit with mr. gregory to study english? mr. bouhe. no. mr. liebeler. in my previous question i meant english, to study at your house? mr. bouhe. now marina was in my house with lee harvey oswald and the baby when i met them at the bus station on or about september , . mr. liebeler. that was the only time they were in your house? mr. bouhe. precisely. i took them from the bus to my house, changed the diaper---- mr. liebeler. marina was never in your house in the absence of lee oswald? mr. bouhe. never. and i never was, to the best of my recollection, and made a point of it never to be in marina's house without somebody else being there. mr. liebeler. now can you tell us why you took such care in that regard? why did you make sure that you never went to visit marina oswald? mr. bouhe. because he was a peculiar guy, and i am not a fighter. i am an expert fighter with the word, but not with the muscles. and by his smirking appearances or other expressions on the face, indicated that i am not welcome and i am persona non grata, because apparently he was jealous that i filled the icebox once, and when she said that somebody else bought groceries, he said, "who did that?" "why i gave you $ last week; $ you got." mr. liebeler. do you know whether oswald was ever jealous of the attention that any other gentlemen in the russian group might have given to marina? mr. bouhe. i did not see. mr. liebeler. you do not know about that? mr. bouhe. i did not see, observe, suspect, or hear, because probably i showed undivided, what i might call, interest in the family as a whole. mr. liebeler. so as far as you know, oswald never was really jealous of any of your friends or your attention to marina in any romantic way? mr. bouhe. i don't know, and he certainly didn't tell me anything about it. mr. liebeler. but you never heard it from anybody else? mr. bouhe. i did not hear, and i am . mr. liebeler. yes; i am not only meaning you, mr. bouhe, i mean anyone else in the group. you never heard any stories to that effect? mr. bouhe. but i did think maybe marina slipped, after the second beer, "well, lee is jealous of you." mr. liebeler. she said that about you? mr. bouhe. yes; because i bought groceries. mr. liebeler. you don't know why marina stopped studying english at the end of the fourth lesson? mr. bouhe. sir, i wish i knew. mr. liebeler. you don't know the answer to that question? mr. bouhe. just a moment. i do not know the answer to that question. mr. liebeler. were you surprised when you heard that oswald had been charged with the assassination of the president? mr. bouhe. you can say that again. mr. liebeler. why were you surprised? mr. bouhe. because i happened to know the guy. mr. liebeler. did you think that oswald was capable of doing such a thing? mr. bouhe. never up to that moment. did not enter my mind. mr. liebeler. he did not appear to you to be a dangerous person in that respect? mr. bouhe. he appeared to be critical of the united states, an individual completely mixed-up, looking, somebody said, for his place under the sun. but i did not go into the thinking like the psychiatrist thought in the bronx in , that he is potentially dangerous, and to whom now this act was almost a natural for his condition. mr. liebeler. he did not appear to you prior to the assassination that he was dangerous in any respect? mr. bouhe. he liked to get into a fight, i heard and get beaten up, i heard, off and on, and he struck his wife, gave her a black eye. yes; he is a tough guy but---- mr. liebeler. as far as assassinating the president or shooting somebody, that's never occurred to you? mr. bouhe. never. mr. liebeler. do you know of any connection between lee oswald and jack ruby? mr. bouhe. thought of it a lot, and i can unqualifiably say, i could not come to any thought that would make me say yes on that, that i suspect yes--no, no. mr. liebeler. now you testified before that you knew george de mohrenschildt? mr. bouhe. yes. mr. liebeler. de mohrenschildt was a friend of oswald's; was he not? mr. bouhe. mr. de mohrenschildt is a ph. d., comes from an excellent family back in the old country, married the right people, knows everybody, but there is something in him that we have discussed here with mr. gregory in a nice sort of way, a nonconformist, meaning if you invited him to dinner, formally, he might arrive there in a bathing suit and bring a girl friend which is not accepted. when i talked to de mohrenschildt, who met oswald somewhere in october or november, whether at meller's or mrs. ford's, i told him, "george, i just cannot go on, he is nuts and we are going to have trouble." by trouble, i meant constant arguments, battling, moving out and all of that sort of stuff. george, who liked him, said, "oh, come on, you are too critical, you are too big a snob. just because he didn't come from st. petersburg, then you drop them like a hot cake. they are nice people." "all right, george, you carry the ball." mr. liebeler. you said that to de mohrenschildt? mr. bouhe. yes; and then on various weekends he would take him to his society friends, swimming pools, and this and that just like a little hoopla circus. so they went through the crowds and maybe they brought them over one day. if i ran into them at de mohrenschildt's house once in that period, that is almost an exaggeration. mr. liebeler. but you say you know de mohrenschildt did go on and attempt to help the oswalds in the manner that you have described? mr. bouhe. yes. mr. liebeler. do you have any idea whether de mohrenschildt exercised any particular influence over oswald? mr. bouhe. i think oswald had respect for the size and the weight and the muscles of de mohrenschildt because on some occasions if he went to tell something to oswald, like he had to change a shirt on wednesday, or not to be dirty, or do something on sunday, he wouldn't care--de mohrenschildt would give it to him, tell him, and holler at him. mr. liebeler. oswald would do that? mr. bouhe. i don't know whether he did it, but de mohrenschildt would say it. whether that registered or not, that i don't know. i wouldn't even say it. mr. liebeler. mr. bouhe, i want to show you five photographs of a man, and these photographs have all been marked in the testimony that mrs. ruth paine gave before the commission. we do not have the numbers here. i will ask you if you recognize this man or these men. [commission exhibits , - , wjl.] first of all, does it appear to you that they are all pictures of the same man? mr. bouhe. if i saw him, it must be in my dreams. i don't remember seeing that man. mr. liebeler. do you observe any resemblance between these pictures and lee harvey oswald? mr. bouhe. i would say no. am i wrong? mr. liebeler. do you have anything else now, mr. bouhe, that you think that we should know in connection with this matter before we terminate. i have no more questions that i want to ask, do you have anything else that you think we ought to know before we finish? let me ask you one more question. did oswald drink, as far as you know? mr. bouhe. drink? mr. liebeler. yes. mr. bouhe. he took one vodka in my house, and he probably took a couple of drinks at katya ford's house. i think that i saw him with a glass, but do not know if it was ginger ale. mr. liebeler. he was not a strong drinker? mr. bouhe. never saw or heard or smelled. mr. liebeler. do you have anything else that you want to call to our attention that you think would help us in this matter? let me say this, we are going to be here in dallas for the next or days. why don't you think over your testimony, and if you have anything else that you want to tell us that you think we should know, you get in touch with us, and we will make arrangements to talk to you about it at that time. mr. bouhe. yes. mr. liebeler. is there anything that occurs to you now? mr. bouhe. i cannot think of anything. mr. liebeler. if you think of it in the next days, you call the u.s. attorney's office and we will make arrangements. mr. bouhe. is that mr. sanders? mr. liebeler. yes. mr. bouhe. i talked incessantly today. mr. liebeler. in view of the fact that mr. bouhe has nothing that he can think of at this point and in view of the fact that i have no further questions, i would like to terminate the examination at this time with the final question of you, mr. bouhe, as to whether there is anything we have talked about here that has not been taken down by the court reporter, that we have not subsequently put on the record for the benefit of the record that you think ought to be on the record? in other words, in our conversation here today we have discussed a couple of matters off the record, and i ask you now, isn't it a fact that everything we discussed off the record we subsequently discussed while the reporter was writing? mr. bouhe. absolutely; after the clarification was obtained. but i must say i am a quick thinking man and fast talking, but at this moment i cannot think of anything. but as usual, i will go out and lie down and will think of something, so don't hold it against me. mr. liebeler. you will think of something that we have not discussed? mr. bouhe. because i have seen fbi agents and from the secret service, of which were speaking russian, or were natives of russia, and i--by the way, where do i go out? will the name unfortunately appear in the paper? mr. liebeler. no; not as far as we know. you don't want any publicity? mr. bouhe. i tell you, i certainly don't want any publicity. too, i am fearful, because you probably heard about this--is this on the record? mr. liebeler. yes; go ahead. mr. bouhe. this is dallas, and you know there is a lot of shootings going on, and as i read in the paper at the time oswald was being captured at the texas theatre, some mob was assembling and they were holding him out there, and screaming, "kill the republicans," and you can see the---- mr. liebeler. we will see to it that your name is not mentioned in connection with the affair. at this point i think we can terminate. testimony of anna n. meller the testimony of anna n. meller was taken at a.m., on march , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. liebeler. come in, mr. and mrs. meller, and sit down. before we start i want to make a statement for the record and for your information. mrs. meller, my name is wesley j. liebeler. i am a member of the legal staff of the president's commission investigating the assassination of president kennedy. staff counsel such as myself have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the commission pursuant to authority granted to the commission under the provisions of executive order dated november , , and joint resolution of congress no. . last week, i believe mr. rankin sent to you, mrs. meller, a letter and told you i would be in touch with you this week and he sent with that letter copies of the executive order and of the resolution i just referred to as well as copies of the rules of procedure related to the taking of testimony. you did receive copies of those documents with that letter? mrs. meller. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. we want to take your testimony this morning, mrs. meller, concerning your knowledge of the oswalds that you obtained as a result of marina oswald living with you in your home for a period in october or november of , and whatever other knowledge you may have concerning the background of the oswalds or any facts relating to the assassination and the subsequent death of lee harvey oswald. mrs. meller. yes. mr. liebeler. would you rise, mrs. meller, and please raise your right hand? (witness complying.) do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mrs. meller. yes. mr. liebeler. would you state your full name for the record, please? mrs. meller. anna n. meller. mr. liebeler. what is your address, mrs. meller? mrs. meller. - / lavista drive, dallas . mr. liebeler. where were you born? mrs. meller. i was born in russia in . mr. liebeler. in what town in russia were you born? mrs. meller. belgorod, something like fort worth; it's not belgrade like in yugoslavia. it's b-e-l-g-o-r-o-d [spelling]. mr. liebeler. what part of russia is that in? mrs. meller. it's first town in russia, town after ukraine. mr. liebeler. that would be in southern russia then? mrs. meller. yes, but we will say first town going north it starts russia after. mr. liebeler. ukraine? mrs. meller. yes, after ukraine. mr. liebeler. are you now an american citizen? mrs. meller. i am an american citizen since . mr. liebeler. how did you come to the united states? mrs. meller. as a refugee. mr. liebeler. when? mrs. meller. in january , . mr. liebeler. when did you leave russia? mrs. meller. i left russia around . mr. liebeler. in ? mrs. meller. yes. mr. liebeler. you left russia at the time the german army retreated? mrs. meller. yes, the corps of germans. mr. liebeler. the germans took you from russia and took you back to germany? mrs. meller. yes. mr. liebeler. after you left russia did you go to germany? mrs. meller. i went to poland first then from poland to germany, then from germany to united states. mr. liebeler. was mr. meller with you at that time? mrs. meller. mr. meller i met in germany and married in germany short before we came to united states. year, i just may not be exactly in the dates. i am just a little bit forgetful always but i would say we met, , i met him. mr. liebeler. off the record. (off record comment.) mr. liebeler. concerning your departure from russia, were you taken by the german army from russia or did you leave russia of your own free will and go to germany? mrs. meller. no; i was taken by the germans from russia. mr. liebeler. was that prior to the retreat of the german army or with the retreat of the german army? mrs. meller. part of the retreat. mr. liebeler. why did the germans take you from russia; do you know? mrs. meller. they took many young people on the streets. if you walk on the streets they will make a circle around several blocks and who is inside everybody going by train. i certainly tried to prevent myself as much as i could to go out and then i talk a little bit german and all that, but i held part of luck little bit, i stay in country and worked for germans for piece of bread so i wouldn't die of hunger because russia was in bad shape, and then that very place hospital was retreated back. i went with or i had to stay and die of hunger. that way, i was brought piece by piece further deeper into poland and germany. mr. liebeler. you didn't really want to leave russia at the time; you wanted to remain in russia, is that correct? mrs. meller. that's quite a question. i never liked regime in russia in politics. i don't understand those things but i never liked those regime in russia; even at i would ask father such questions it would raise his hair. i could not understand what was going around, why we could not talk freely at home and things like that, always afraid of something. mr. liebeler. where did you learn to speak english, mrs. meller? mrs. meller. we took with my husband in germany year before we came to united states, we took private lessons for about a year or little bit more than a year and when i came to united states i had pretty good vocabulary, i can speak and i could write but i was afraid to speak. i forget all my vocabulary as soon as someone ask me something. mr. liebeler. did you come directly to dallas when you came to the united states? mrs. meller. sir, we came to new york and from new york, several names they call and says that in past times they send too many refugees in north, we suppose to go to milwaukee and he says those families several go to the south, he said to texas and i am ashamed to say i heard about texas but never heard about dallas. i heard houston and austin but never heard dallas, and we---- mr. liebeler. and then you came to dallas? mrs. meller. we came to dallas and are in dallas or almost years here and love it. mr. liebeler. do you work now, mrs. meller? mrs. meller. yes, i work years for dallas power & light co. as draftsman. mr. liebeler. as a draftsman? mrs. meller. yes. mr. liebeler. did you have training in draftsmanship work? mrs. meller. yes; i love drafting all my life and i wanted to be architect but i finish school in dentistry and war came. i passed all examinations besides the main diploma when war started so i get my diploma--without the main diploma--without examination of--from my dentistry examination but i get my diploma. mr. liebeler. so, you were a qualified dentist in the soviet union before you left? mrs. meller. yes; i got my document but without final examination of dentistry because war started. by the way, i was always good in drafting back in school and i wanted to be always a draftsman or architect but it was too many people and everybody was interested in architecture so you have to be the very best one to make it and i wasn't the best one in physics, i remember, and i couldn't possibly--and it was time when girl supposed to have higher education, it started just then in russia. parents said you have to take something and finish so you have some kind of job, but when i was starting dentistry there was certain difficulties in the family. i was working at night as nurse in hospital and helping my sister with drafting so i get always money on the side little bit so i could proceed my studying. when i came to united states i have pretty bad veins. i could not stay very much on my feet; i had phlebitis when i arrived short after and doctor said better i will have sitting job better than standing because modern dentist have to stay very much on his legs so i took drafting. i went for my own interest to crozier architecture school and took course in dallas so i could see what drafting look like in united states. since that time i love it and my job. mr. liebeler. does your husband work also? mrs. meller. my husband works, too, at sangers harris as packer for years or . i will say years. mr. liebeler. is your husband also from russia originally? mrs. meller. no; my husband from poland, born in poland, finish two universities. he's professor of philosophy and teacher of physical education. mr. liebeler. did there come a time that you met lee harvey oswald and his wife, marina? mrs. meller. we were invited one day in august, i think end of august in , we were invited to fort worth to mr. peter gregory--i, my husband and mr. george bouhe. my husband couldn't go and i want to make something--we don't have a house here. we don't have car here. we have one bedroom apartment we live for past year in same place. when we were invited there, my husband couldn't go so mr. george bouhe picked me up and because he had a car and we went to fort worth. at mr. gregory family, we met marina and lee oswald. mr. liebeler. who else was there at the time? mrs. meller. i think it was wife from peter gregory, mr. gregory, his son---- mr. liebeler. paul gregory? mrs. meller. paul gregory, myself, and george bouhe. mr. liebeler. was that a luncheon meeting or was it in the evening? mrs. meller. it was a dinner. mr. liebeler. in the evening? mrs. meller. yes. mr. liebeler. would you tell us to the best of your recollection the conversation that took place and what happened at this first dinner at which you met the oswalds? mrs. meller. we met them and mr. gregory said they come from russia not long ago and we find out immediately that marina could not speak word of english whatsoever. the baby was probably about months old, baby girl was with. we talked; we didn't have something important, just were speaking about condition in united states and how marina likes and if you had a job--lee harvey. by the way, the first impression of lee harvey is a man absolutely sick. i mean mentally sick; you could not speak with him about anything. he's against soviet union; he's against united states. he made impression he did not know what he likes, really. she was more quiet and certainly did not spoke much; since we met each other first time, nobody spoke too much. really, it was easy going conversation but not much. we asked how is her baby and we find out baby didn't have a bed and she didn't have anything to wear and i even don't remember if he had a job at this time already; i don't remember exactly or he was looking for it. mr. liebeler. did you carry on the conversation in english or in russian? mrs. meller. in russian more. mr. liebeler. it was quite clear to you at that time that marina was not able to speak english? mrs. meller. yes; absolutely not a word, absolutely not a word; however, he spoke russian pretty good to understand, amazingly. mr. liebeler. was his russian grammatically correct? mrs. meller. pretty correct. mr. liebeler. did he tell you where he learned russian? mrs. meller. i don't remember exactly. later i heard certain somebody asked because we were wondering how he could speak and he said he took english in school and studied very much at home. mr. liebeler. russian you mean. mrs. meller. russian in school and studied at home very much with himself as marina said later. mr. liebeler. did you think that his command of the russian language was better than you would expect for the period of time that he had spent in russia? mrs. meller. yes; absolutely better than i would expect. mr. liebeler. did he ever indicate that he had gone to any school in russia to learn russian? mrs. meller. you know, he tried to not to speak much. he was not easy to come to it and speak. he will say some sentences and tried to be more quiet. he was on the quiet side but if he didn't like something, he would raise his voice and get very excited--upset. mr. liebeler. you said your first impression just was he appeared mentally sick. can you tell us some of the specific reasons why you came to that conclusion? mrs. meller. later on, when i saw him--i saw him two times or three in the whole period and i saw him mad about some things, about people tried to help marina with warm clothes and baby clothes. he did not want to take anything. he always said "i don't need". he was against everything and he did not want his wife try to speak english, not a single word. mr. liebeler. did he tell you why he did not want her to learn english? mrs. meller. he said he wanted to learn better russian. she has to speak russian so he can speak better russian; she don't need english. mr. liebeler. did oswald tell you at this first meeting why he went to russia in the first place? mrs. meller. no; i do not recall. mr. liebeler. let's go on and establish the other times that you saw oswald and the circumstances and then i will ask you some questions about his experiences in russia and you can tell me whether he ever told you about anything or when you learned about anything. when did you next see oswald? mrs. meller. later on, probably in the next month, we visited marina oswald about two or three times and during this time, couple times, probably one time we did not see him at all. he started to work somewhere and two times we met him we came close to five or probably close to six, to fort worth and he come straight from work, still in work clothes and we speak little bit this time. we brought--always for marina, we brought some groceries for marina, george bouhe and i, some clothes to wear and for baby and i saw baby didn't have bed. baby was sleeping on two suit cases, old suit cases. it was a made baby bed. i never talk much to lee oswald and he was pretty quiet most of the time. however, probably on the last time i went over their house, we stayed for hour there or maybe even less, give those things and come back home. on the third time probably, i noticed in the living room on what you will call that table that the lamp was sitting near the divan. i notice several books; it was "kapital" book karl marx and literature about communism. it caught my eye and i was real upset. mr. liebeler. did you say anything to oswald? mrs. meller. i said to marina "what's this book doing here", something like that. i mentioned something and she said lee takes all those books from the library and reading them. i did not say much after but i was real upset. mr. liebeler. was that the last time that you saw him? mrs. meller. it was maybe last time that we visited marina in her house. no; excuse me just a second, sir. one of these times we came to marina house and husband was still not at home she has a terrible blue spot over her eye and i said to her "what's the matter?" marina was shy little bit. she's shy little, a little bit in nature, i think, too. she said "i have to get up during night and quiet baby and i hit the door and hit my head here" and it was very blue. mr. liebeler. around her eye? mrs. meller. under her eye was and over here [indicating] and it was very noticeable i will say. i said "you have to be careful" but i felt always like girl tried to hide something, you know. she was shy and not very--didn't like to talk too much, i think. that's last time i went; it was on mercedes avenue in fort worth where they had home. mr. liebeler. you never saw lee oswald except for this first meeting at peter gregory's? mrs. meller. at gregory's and then one time at home. mr. liebeler. at your home? mrs. meller. no; at their home where they lived, marina and oswald on mercedes. mr. liebeler. in fort worth; and that is the only place you ever saw him? mrs. meller. yes. i never visit him by myself and never without george bouhe. we were always together--group. mr. liebeler. did you make a special point out of going as a group and not going one person? mrs. meller. well, i would tell you, before we started to help marina and oswald somebody raise the question--i tried to remember who but i couldn't--i think our friend mr. clark from fort worth. mr. liebeler. max clark? mrs. meller. yes; and george bouhe and i said, i said "you know, george, he's check?" "he comes from soviet union" and somebody said, i think george bouhe said "i asked and they tell me he's checked." i thought if he's checked with fbi you suppose not to be afraid to help them, something like that. it was my own inside feelings. mr. liebeler. you were sort of suspicious of oswald because he had been in the soviet union for a while? mrs. meller. we could not understand why he stayed there and come back. mr. liebeler. did it seem strange to you that he was able to leave the soviet union and bring marina back to the united states with him? mrs. meller. when somebody asked, he told them they--they let--they go to american embassy and they let him go. it seem like it was supposed to be in order if they give him even money and american embassy let him go. i thought it must be in order. i never heard of anything in my lifetime, anything like that happen. i don't recall any case like this one having so much sorrow and trouble. it was in fort worth then, i do not recall. we will go in more there later. we find out that lee harvey lost his job. i think by the last time we saw lee harvey marina mentioned he is temporary there and may lose his job pretty soon. mr. liebeler. this was his job in fort worth? mrs. meller. yes; and i said "well, if you can't find a job in fort worth, come to dallas and look around." then one day we heard he was looking for a job in dallas. mr. liebeler. let me go back to the time that oswald lived in fort worth. you said that you and mr. bouhe had given groceries to the oswalds and helped them in other ways. would you tell me approximately, and take your time to think about it, how much groceries and what other things were given to the oswalds during that period by friends? mrs. meller. it was pretty good. i would give her old dresses. i asked three friends to give me something old, old dresses for her, about to dresses, probably. we bought some underwear, probably two, three pairs. mr. liebeler. for marina? mrs. meller. for marina, strictly for marina. when we met her we had sorrow for marina for not speaking word of english; just for sake of woman with baby. seems her husband will not care for her about anything. we never saw he will be really---- mr. liebeler. responsible? mrs. meller. responsible for her; thank you, sir; yes. i never saw that feelings, never, and being a russian myself and go through certain trouble during world war ii where the good people helped us very much for all sides of walks when i came to united states, even i was brought up in family at home to help somebody if i can in trouble, so i saw russian girl couldn't speak word of english and baby and looks like husband didn't caring much about her, it was our mutual feelings toward marina start to help her. it was only idea. somehow it sounds strange but somehow it even looks to me like--we didn't see lee harvey buying anything, very little; they was just existing--woman and baby in hands, baby months old, young girl. when we went to, george bouhe and i, to house we took her to store in fort worth and george bouhe bought about $ groceries and i tried to let her pick up some of the things she would like and first thing she started with baby food. i will tell you, she's young but it's amazing how she cares about children. she's young mother; she gives pretty good care of the children. i looked and i was wondering; baby was first. mr. liebeler. was it only on one occasion that you purchased groceries for them? mrs. meller. i don't recall exactly but i think it was more probably two occasions that george bouhe spent lot of money. second time, i think he bought for child baby playpen, excuse me, i am not familiar with those names, playpen and certainly we tried to buy cheaper and something because child did not have bed and it was same time bed for the child. mr. liebeler. mr. bouhe also bought a bed for the baby? mrs. meller. no; he bought playpen and it was for time bed for the baby. i think we bought her one dress, probably couple underwears, couple pairs, and stockings; something she is really need and certainly more groceries. then one day when came with groceries like that lee harvey come from work and mr. bouhe told him to come with and try to help to pick up playpen. he was furious why we did all that and buy all that and he said "i don't need"; he was in rage; "i don't need," he say. mr. liebeler. did he go with mr. bouhe to get the playpen? mrs. meller. he went but you can see it was not like he had to go--it was something which was real hard for him to do it--never talked much and i could not talk much to him. mr. liebeler. did you think that he was strange or somewhat peculiar because he resented this help that you tried to give him, or did you understand that perhaps he had good reasons? mrs. meller. sir, he was peculiar, yes; he was and i think he was a person which will not go; he was not easy to go with the other people. he could not talk like--i see first time and anyway, to explain as much as i could, but i doubt if he would talk to you same way i do. he had always something hidden; you can feel it. he was not very--not willing to talk and very much against, against the food you buy, against the milk for baby--"we don't need anything." mr. liebeler. did you ever know how much money he was making at his job in fort worth? mrs. meller. no; no idea. mr. liebeler. did he say anything to you about repayment of a loan that the united states had made to him? mrs. meller. yes; he said that he has to pay to embassy back money and that's what he was doing and he had to send certain amount to american embassy to pay their passage but i never asked how much. mr. liebeler. but you knew or he told you at that time that he was making payments to the american government? mrs. meller. yes; he was paying; if i am not wrong, i think he say he mentioned he had to pay and what is left he will never say and i think it was not much at all. mr. liebeler. did you ever give any money to marina or did you just confine your help to buying groceries and clothes and giving her clothes and buying the playpen and that sort of thing? mrs. meller. well, i give her $ . some good soul give it to me and i give her $ . and i spend two or $ . , little bit, not as much as george bouhe. it's our very good friend, george bouhe; he--we haven't so very much and he is person who helps everybody. i mean, he never--how to explain--interested what nationality you are. if you are in need and you are not lazy, let me point that out, he is willing to help with his strength, with his car go with you and help everywhere. mr. liebeler. do you remember who gave you the $ . to give to marina? mrs. meller. $ . --my goodness! if i could remember. mr. liebeler. it isn't that important, but if you remember to keep it from being counted twice. mrs. meller. just a second, i think it was mrs. steed---- mr. liebeler. how do you spell that? mrs. meller. steed [spelling], from oilman, wife. mr. liebeler. did either oswald or marina at any time that you knew them tell you or say in your hearing what kind of a job oswald had while he was in russia? mrs. meller. oh, my goodness, yes; he mentioned something but, something--how to explain--something that you have with machinery. i mean something to fix like hard--just like hardware store, something with those things. i think it was a dirty job. not exactly locks but some kind of job in factory with screws and some gauges, i think is kind of work he did but i am very sorry i never was listening real good. mr. liebeler. did he tell you how much he was paid at the job? mrs. meller. i don't recall; i just did not pay much attention. i know he was having a pretty good room there. mr. liebeler. what did he tell you about that? mrs. meller. that he was having good room and something--maybe i am not right, sir, i am afraid to say, like $ month. mr. liebeler. eighty rubles? mrs. meller. eighty rubles a month. mr. liebeler. did he say or indicate he received help from the red cross or any other phase of the embassy? mrs. meller. no. mr. liebeler. as far as you know any money he ever received in russia is from his job, is that correct? mrs. meller. yes; and i am not clear here because i may have heard something and never paid much attention. mr. liebeler. did he ever mention anything about hunting trips he used to go on in russia? mrs. meller. something he said one time that he went with some russian boys, probably young people, hunting one time, i think he mentioned and it was something like duckhunting, something like that. mr. liebeler. to the best of your recollection, he said that he only went on one hunting trip? mrs. meller. i mean i heard him saying one time that, just sort mention; he will not go in any detail anywhere i think as much as i know him. mr. liebeler. did he tell you or did marina tell you about the circumstances under which marina and lee met and became married in russia? mrs. meller. just far away rumors like i cannot imagine because i am not clear with that. it is so far away and so unclear i am afraid to let you know but in short, i think marina said she met him at somewhere at a dancing place. mr. liebeler. did marina tell you that she had lived in leningrad for awhile? mrs. meller. i think she was born there and lived some time and then was in minsk. mr. liebeler. did she tell you why she moved from leningrad to minsk? mrs. meller. no; never asked much. mr. liebeler. did oswald ever tell you why he decided to return to the united states? mrs. meller. i do not remember. mr. liebeler. did he speak of any difficulties that he had in returning to the united states, that you remember? mrs. meller. no; i will not say; it was mentioned embassy and that embassy even decided to help with the money. that was all i think i remember. mr. liebeler. did oswald ever express any dislike toward the state department or the embassy because they delayed his return to the united states? mrs. meller. no. mr. liebeler. did he ever express any hostility toward the u.s. government, that you can remember? mrs. meller. i will not say. i just do not recall. he never said too much is what i say. mr. liebeler. did you ever hear him speak of president kennedy? mrs. meller. no, never. mr. liebeler. did he ever speak of governor connally? mrs. meller. no. mr. liebeler. did he appear to you to be a dangerous person at the time that you knew him in the sense that he would become violent? mrs. meller. not exactly dangerous but he would look ridiculous in ways. he was some kind of strange person; you cannot talk to him. you could not find two sentences that will go without difficulties. he will always say something against--some way. mr. liebeler. did you ever get the impression as to whether oswald was well liked when he was in russia or was he unpopular when he was in russia, do you know? mrs. meller. my personal opinion, this person could never be friendly with anybody, very friendly, i mean. he was such a person that you never can come near even if you want to. mr. liebeler. did marina ever tell you or give you any indication as to why she married lee oswald? mrs. meller. that's quite a question--why she married lee oswald? mr. liebeler. yes. mrs. meller. i don't remember what she said but i remember one sentence which is even caught in my head that she said. she wished all her life to have room of her own, is what she said after, you know; that she's tired living not like a human living. she wanted to have piece of her personal life and piece of her room just to her own. i remember her expressing that very, very deeply. mr. liebeler. now, do you remember that some time in the fall of , after the oswalds had moved out of their apartment in fort worth that marina called you on the telephone one evening and told you that she wanted to leave oswald? would you tell us about that? mrs. meller. yes, yes, sir. it was in november, i think on certain monday about in the evening, she will call me and say that her husband beat her and she came out from the apartment and reached the filling station and said the man--she did not have a penny of money, and the good soul helped her to dial my number and she's talking to me if she can come over my house. i was speechless because to this time i even didn't know they were in dallas. to understand, sir, we went to fort worth two or three times to help marina and then was for certain period quiet and then i do not know how long, maybe weeks, maybe month, maybe weeks and then i had this call. i said "where are you?" she said "in dallas." certainly, then my husband was at home; i came to my husband and i asked him if we can take marina. he did not want to. we have one bedroom apartment and he said "do not have very much space." i like a maniac woman, started to beg and said "we have to help poor woman; she's on the street with baby. we could not leave her like that; we had our trouble and somebody helped us." my husband said "okay let her come. she said to me she did not have a penny of money. i said "take a taxi and come here and we will pay the way." so, about or : she came over our house so like she was staying in light blouse and skirt with baby on her hand, couple diapers and that was all; no coat, no money, nothing. mr. liebeler. did she appear to have been beaten up at that time; did she have bruises? mrs. meller. she was very nervous; did not try to cry very much but you can see she was shaking. mr. liebeler. did she appear to be bruised? mrs. meller. i will not say exactly but she was out of herself. mr. liebeler. she seemed to be upset? mrs. meller. nervous, upset and looked like--she did not cry exactly and at me now but looks like she cried--her eyes. mr. liebeler. did she tell you what she and oswald had been arguing about? mrs. meller. i do not remember. she said he beat her and i do not remember asking really for what or something. i did not ask for arguments, really, because it was so shocking and so unagreeable. i do not think i went into detail. mr. liebeler. how long did marina stay with you? mrs. meller. marina stay, i think week, days at my home, something like monday until friday and friday she went to another family by the name of mr. ford, mr. and mrs. ford. mr. liebeler. did marina tell you any time during that week that she stayed with you what she and oswald had been arguing about and what their difficulties were? mrs. meller. no, no; she did not say much. she mention that her husband could not find proper jobs. they don't want to take him or he could not find; she did not know herself very much. you can see without speaking word of english i do not know what he could come home and tell her; i cannot imagine. she said lee could not find job and they are in trouble and she did not say much. by the way, she was so skinny to this time and so undernourished; look as skinny as she could be and she did not feel good. she had pain everywhere in her body and looking at her i decided to take her to doctor and let check her health a little bit. mr. liebeler. did you take her to the doctor? mrs. meller. so, i took her during this week she stay with me. i took her to the g-y-n by the name doctor paul wolff. mr. liebeler. w-o-l-f [spelling]? mrs. meller. yes, w-o-l-f-f [spelling]. mr. liebeler. w-o-l-f-f [spelling]. mrs. meller. he give her examination and said in my presence, said she's very undernourished and if she will not put at least pounds immediately she will have pain everywhere; that she is just weak and need to eat better and mean she was not eating good at all. she had bad appetite. mr. liebeler. did marina tell you how long she had been living in dallas? mrs. meller. i do not remember, sir, exactly. mr. liebeler. do you remember her saying anything about living in the home of elena hall? mrs. meller. elena hall; yes. mr. liebeler. what did she tell you about that? mrs. meller. that mrs. hall was very good to her and she stayed there probably about weeks if not more. mr. liebeler. did she tell you how long it had been since she lived in mrs. hall's home? mrs. meller. can you repeat that question? mr. liebeler. yes; did she tell you how long it had been since she had left mrs. hall's home? in other words, i want to know how long she had been living in dallas with oswald. mrs. meller. no; i do not recall her saying. but may i go back? mr. liebeler. yes. mrs. meller. it is time--thank you for remembering, helping me here. it was the time between fort worth and our family and, in other words, i think now like it is my recollection he lost a job in fort worth and went to dallas look for job. during this time marina stay at mrs. hall home for or weeks, if i am correct. it is not easy to remember, really, and during this time we heard, i think he called on telephone to us, lee harvey, and asked if we know something, if we can help him with a job. in all time when we visited them in apartment in fort worth and i heard from marina that her husband may lose job pretty soon, maybe next week or later because he was temporary there, just like good soul, i say "you have to come to dallas which is larger town and maybe he find job." i did not say personally about george bouhe maybe he find job there, just mention in general. so he called and ask if we can help him and again, as i repeat, for the sake of the poor woman which could not speak word of english and her little baby, i asked my husband. i was stupid enough to beg him to help to find job for lee harvey in dallas. mr. meller has a former friend with whom he was working back at harris but this time it was not sanger-harris. it was just a. harris store and he was working with certain mrs. helen cunningham. later, mrs. cunningham left a. harris and was working for employment office in dallas. mr. liebeler. the texas employment commission? mrs. meller. texas employment commission; so, i asked him and i said "your former friend, mrs. helen cunningham, maybe she can find job for him. please ask her." he did not want to do it. he said just because i ask him and begged him so much he called mrs. helen cunningham; told her we had a couple which arrived from russia; she's russian, and he is american. they are not very long here and he is looking for job but he made a note and he said, "mrs. cunningham, be careful and check him because he came from soviet union." he said be careful so we would not have any trouble and you understand, because we did not like they came from soviet union and i do not know, however, we heard somebody mention he was checked and mrs. cunningham said, "don't worry, mr. meller; we will try do right thing," and that was all when he called to us. he came one time during this period without marina for half hour to my house. i give him sandwich and cup of tea and he went back to look for jobs. mr. liebeler. did he tell you at that time where he had been looking for jobs? mrs. meller. he will not mention exactly. he was sleeping; i think he was staying ymca this time, living there and looking for job. he said he has little piece of paper and some notices there. mr. liebeler. names on them? mrs. meller. but he never go into detail, never, never, never. he will mention but you will never find details out. mr. liebeler. did you ever hear of any other place where lee oswald stayed during this period other than the ymca? mrs. meller. never hear and when marina oswald later called me at night, i was speechless that she was already in dallas and we did not know a word and when she mention name where she--they were living, i did not have address. i did not know where they were living, how long they are; they did not say a thing but i took her home, over my house for days. mr. liebeler. then she went to mrs. ford's? mrs. meller. then she went to mrs. ford's. mr. liebeler. do you know how long she stayed there? mrs. meller. i believe week, sir. mr. liebeler. did she then go to the home of---- mrs. meller. then she went to mr. and mrs. ray. mr. liebeler. mr. and mrs. thomas ray? mrs. meller. i tried remember first name--frank ray. mr. liebeler. is it thomas or frank? mrs. meller. frank ray; frank ray. i think ray. now, it was the last time we saw marina. by the way, i must apologize--coming back when she was living at our home, we did not--she was separated with lee harvey to this time. she went out from him. he never call to our home. he never visited. we were working people. we will leave her with food at my home and we will come back in the evening. nobody call; she never went somewhere because we do not have a car, or even if george bouhe help with car, something, because we did not have car, could not drive either. it was last time when i saw marina oswald and her girl who was about or months, i think. she was not even sitting. mr. liebeler. don't you remember seeing lee and marina oswald at a party at the fords? mrs. meller. it was after i saw them at my house in december maybe. i do not recall exactly day, or december; it was party at home of mr. and mrs. ford. mr. liebeler. could it have been the th of december, after christmas? mrs. meller. yes; it was th; yes, sir. mr. liebeler. tell me us about that party, would you, please--who was there; did oswald come? mrs. meller. well, i do not know; it was probably over people there and as i heard, marina and oswald were not invited there at all. mr. liebeler. do you remember who told you that? mrs. meller. but were invited certain mr. and mrs. de---- mr. liebeler. de mohrenschildt? mrs. meller. de mohrenschildt, thank you very much, and i heard from the other people that the de mohrenschildt's called to mr. and mrs. ford and asked if he can bring with him people, marina and oswald. they are all lost by themselves, have no place to go or something and he brought them with. mr. liebeler. did you see oswald come with de mohrenschildt? mrs. meller. i did not see exactly walking in but i heard then that he brought them there. mr. liebeler. did you see oswald that night at all? mrs. meller. yes; i saw him; he was strange acting and strange looking, cold, not very talkative. it was a certain japanese girl, don't know her name, he was all evening with this girl and marina was left all by herself going with one group of people or another and when finally somebody play with piano, i see her sitting, trying to catch some songs singing and i saw her try to smile, try to make her face human. i did not remember seeing her and him together this evening. he was all time with different girl which we met first time and i do not recognize her name. mr. liebeler. have you ever seen the japanese girl since? mrs. meller. never saw before or after. mr. liebeler. do you know how we can get her name? mrs. meller. do not recall name or anything, sir; i am very sorry. i would like to help you. mr. liebeler. did you talk to oswald that evening? mrs. meller. do not remember anything; my memory--don't know. mr. liebeler. did oswald drink at the party at all; did you notice? mrs. meller. do not remember seeing him. mr. liebeler. do you know whether oswald ever drank very much? mrs. meller. never saw him drink; do not recall. i saw marina eating pretty much; looks like she was real hungry. some our friends notice and we had pity for the girl maybe she did not have at home anything to eat. mr. liebeler. did you see oswald leave the party? mrs. meller. do not recall. mr. liebeler. do you recall any discussion about oswald after he left the party? did you overhear any conversation about him and marina? mrs. meller. no; do not recall; i heard something from the people talking in a group and it was certain person by the name of, oh, my goodness, excuse me just a second my husband help me with the name--lev aronson, and i heard later that he talked to lee oswald and says that he is a poor idiot and completely crazy man. mr. liebeler. did he tell you why he thought that? mrs. meller. no; i did not talk to him. i heard that conversation, you know, going with a group of people and it was just---- mr. liebeler. did you have a party at your house some time following the party at the ford residence? mrs. meller. after ford party? mr. liebeler. yes. mrs. meller. no. mr. liebeler. did you have an open house on the day following? mrs. meller. no; you mean of december? mr. liebeler. yes; approximately. mrs. meller. just a second, sir. mr. liebeler. or the next day--within a few days following the ford party? mrs. meller. i could not recall really, but if i had, i never had oswalds over to my house. mr. liebeler. do you know charles edward harris from georgetown, tex.? mrs. meller. charles edward harris, yes; i met him one time or two. mr. liebeler. was he at the ford party; do you remember? mrs. meller. i do not think so. mr. liebeler. was there any discussion as far as you can recall either at the ford party or at your place or anywhere during this period of time where the question of whether lee oswald was a russian agent was discussed? mrs. meller. no. mr. liebeler. did you ever discuss that question with anybody? mrs. meller. no; never. mr. liebeler. did you ever hear anybody discuss it? mrs. meller. no. mr. liebeler. did it ever occur to you that oswald might be an agent of the soviet union? mrs. meller. could not say; can be but i cannot say. mr. liebeler. you do not remember talking about that? mrs. meller. no; we never talked about that; i remember exactly. mr. liebeler. now, have you told us everything that you can remember about your meetings with oswald and marina that you think the commission would be interested in; can you think of anything else? mrs. meller. i am thinking and seems to be that's all. mr. liebeler. how well do you know de mohrenschildt? mrs. meller. how long? mr. liebeler. yes. mrs. meller. oh, i know him about years, probably; met him very seldom and we were never friends, real close, never. mr. liebeler. was he friendly with oswald, do you know? mrs. meller. try to help, i think was--try to help as much as we did. he had a car; he took them, i think to anna ray house and tried to bring some of her dresses and things belonging. if he was later together with lee oswald, i do not have any idea. mr. liebeler. were you surprised when you heard that oswald had been arrested in connection with the assassination? mrs. meller. i do not--if i say surprised or was shocked when president kennedy was assassinated: i was shocked. i was in such sorrow that i could not explain to you. i do not have enough english words in my vocabulary to describe what shock it was and later, when i find out it was lee harvey, i was completely shocked. i was completely out of my place and afraid for what a person, if he really did that, what it could happen to us. it was terrible shock; i could not explain to you. we could not believe at first at all. mr. liebeler. you were very surprised when you heard it was lee oswald? mrs. meller. we could not believe he will do things like that. mr. liebeler. do you remember being interviewed by the fbi? mrs. meller. yes, sir; three times. mr. liebeler. three times? mrs. meller. yes, sir--oh, i mean from fbi one time; secret service another time, and third time it was from police. i cannot recall name but it was three times together. mr. liebeler. as far as you can remember the fbi only interviewed you once? mrs. meller. yes; once fbi, once secret service, and once dallas group. mr. liebeler. was it the dallas police force? mrs. meller. yes. mr. liebeler. dallas police officers? mrs. meller. yes, yes. mr. liebeler. did you ever form an opinion as to who was responsible for these marital difficulties the oswalds were having? did you think it was mostly lee harvey's fault or did you think it was partly her fault, or what? mrs. meller. it was not easy to judge but i think since we do not know them very close and very long, let's say this way but it seems to me again that lee oswald was not normal because later i heard from somebody that he beat marina and he did one time, i think even marina told to me that when they moved in apartment the bulb is burned through and she has to put new lamp in it. he demanded when the master is home the bathtub supposed to be full with water so he can take bath before he sit down to eat and one time he come home and it was dark and she has to put lamp in the room, she did not have time to put water in the tub and he find tub was without water and he beat her. mr. liebeler. marina told you that? mrs. meller. i think she told me that or somebody from our group; i do not recall who, but i remember that and i was shocked. i thought that something must be wrong with man if he is every time running to beat her. mr. liebeler. you never saw or talked to either oswald or marina at anytime after the party at the ford residence around christmas time, ? mrs. meller. no, never. mr. liebeler. is that right? mrs. meller. no, sir; never and probably passed year and months since we did not hear or did not know from them anything. when it happened--when the assassination happened, it passed to months. mr. liebeler. you did not hear that they had moved from dallas to new orleans and back to dallas? mrs. meller. nothing; not a word, not a telephone call, or nothing. it was the last time at ford's family. mr. liebeler. i don't have any more questions, mrs. meller. if you can think of anything else that you would like to add, just go right ahead. mrs. meller. would love if i remember but so far i try to think if i did not forget anything. i do not think so. mr. liebeler. then we shall terminate the deposition at this time. i want to thank you very much for being so cooperative and coming down and giving us the testimony you have and the commission appreciates it very much. you have been a very good and gracious witness; thank you very much. mrs. meller. thank you very much. testimony of elena a. hall the testimony of elena a. hall was taken at p.m., on march , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. liebeler. mrs. hall, would you please rise and raise your right hand. do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in the testimony that you are about to give? mrs. hall. i sure do. mr. liebeler. mrs. hall, my name is wesley j. liebeler. this is albert jenner. we are both of the legal staff of the president's commission investigating the assassination of president kennedy. the staff has been authorized to take testimony from you and from other witnesses by the commission pursuant to authority which has been granted to the commission by executive order dated november , , and joint resolution of congress . it is my understanding that mr. rankin, general counsel of the commission sent you a letter last week and included copies of those two documents, as well as a copy of the rules of procedure pertaining to the taking of testimony. did you receive that letter? mrs. hall. yes. mr. liebeler. with that letter were included copies of those documents referred to, isn't that correct? mr. hall. yes. mr. liebeler. we want to question you today about your knowledge of lee and marina oswald, which knowledge you obtained as a result of your association with them after they returned, after oswald returned from russia sometime in . i understand that your association with oswald continued over a period of time and that you last saw him at approximately easter of ? mrs. hall. yes, that is right. mr. liebeler. first of all, will you state your full name for the record? mrs. hall. elena a. hall. mr. liebeler. what is your address, mrs. hall? mrs. hall. trail lake drive. mr. liebeler. in fort worth, is that correct? mrs. hall. fort worth. mr. liebeler. you are married to mr. john r. hall, isn't that correct? mrs. hall. yes. mr. liebeler. you and mr. hall operate a dental laboratory in fort worth, isn't that right? mrs. hall. yes. mr. liebeler. where were you born in iran? in what town? mrs. hall. tehran. mr. liebeler. when were you born? mrs. hall. . mr. liebeler. it is the commission's understanding that your parents were originally from russia, is that correct? mrs. hall. yes. mr. liebeler. when did they move to tehran? mrs. hall. or . mr. liebeler. where in russia had they lived prior to that time? mrs. hall. the last in baku. mr. liebeler. can you tell us briefly the reasons that prompted your parents to leave russia and go to tehran? mrs. hall. the communists. when the communists started in, my father was over in the russian army in siberia. he was a prisoner, and after he got out, he escaped, they came back. i mean they came to iran. mr. liebeler. did they eventually move to the united states? mrs. hall. no; my mother was here in , but she came just to visit and went back. mr. liebeler. are they still living in tehran? mrs. hall. no; both are dead. mr. liebeler. both are dead? mrs. hall. yes. mr. liebeler. tell us the circumstances surrounding your moving to the united states, if you would. mrs. hall. well, i worked for years. i worked for dentists, and i knew a little bit of laboratory work. then i decided to continue and have some kind of diploma, and that is why i came to the united states. my best friends, they were coming to the united states. so they told me that there are some technology schools here in the united states that i can go and accomplish my dental technology, and that is why i came to new york and was in the dental technology school where i met john. so he wanted--instead of going back, i married him and came to texas. mr. liebeler. when did you move to the united states, mrs. hall? mrs. hall. . mr. liebeler. ? mrs. hall. yes. mr. liebeler. would you tell us briefly what your educational background was in tehran before you moved to the united states? mrs. hall. high-school education. i was years in french school and years in russian school. mr. liebeler. did you specialize in any special field during your education? mrs. hall. no. mr. liebeler. it was just a general education? mrs. hall. yes. mr. liebeler. after you married your husband in new york and subsequently moved to dallas, or fort worth---- mrs. hall. we were married in fort worth and i came here. mr. liebeler. during your husband's testimony, he said that you were first married in ---- mrs. hall. . mr. liebeler. you were subsequently divorced and then remarried again in november of , is that correct? mrs. hall. yes. mr. liebeler. did you eventually meet lee harvey oswald and his wife marina oswald? mrs. hall. yes. mr. liebeler. would you tell us in your own words and to the best of your recollection when you first met them, and the circumstances. go right ahead and tell your own story of your acquaintance with the oswalds right up until the last time you saw them. i will interrupt you as little as possible. mrs. hall. well, i was working for patterson porcelain laboratory at that time when i met oswald. mrs. george bouhe brought them to our house. at that time i was by myself. john wasn't there. mr. liebeler. were you and your husband divorced at that time? mrs. hall. yes; we were. george bouhe, that is, thought that i could do something for marina because she had a missing tooth, and i told him that i will try. then i asked a couple of doctors and they couldn't do with that little money that george bouhe offered. he offered $ to $ , and said, "i will pay for it," but it was much more than that, so i could do nothing. and that was the first time i met him. it was sometime in july, i guess. mr. liebeler. of ? mrs. hall. in july of . after that i saw her, how poor they were. they really didn't have anything. she didn't have any clothes. so i told my friends, married friends, couple of them. they gave the money. and i asked another lady who gave me a lot of clothes for her. and in this way i start to learn sometimes--give her some money or buy her some clothes. mr. liebeler. did you give marina money from time to time? mrs. hall. no; i didn't give her money. i bought clothes for her. george bouhe gave them money and other people. i bought her clothes. mr. liebeler. who gave you money besides mr. bouhe? mrs. hall. mrs. patterson, the lady that i worked for. i mean my employer's wife. mr. liebeler. what is her first name? mrs. hall. loraine patterson. mr. liebeler. how much money did she give you, do you remember? mrs. hall. i don't remember. it was $ , or $ . mr. liebeler. how much did bouhe give you? mrs. hall. twenty dollars. mr. liebeler. you received that money to buy groceries for marina, is that correct? mrs. hall. no; it was only for her clothes while they were living in fort worth, and i mean not in my house. mr. liebeler. did anybody else give you any money for the oswalds? mrs. hall. no; i spent myself, too. mr. liebeler. for them? mrs. hall. for them, yes. i didn't buy groceries there at that time. i bought little toys for the little girl, but i never did buy groceries until they moved to my house. mr. liebeler. can you estimate approximately how much money altogether you have spent for marina's clothes, and such items as that before they moved out of the apartment in fort worth? mrs. hall. my money or just general? mr. liebeler. altogether. you said that you thought bouhe had given you $ ? mrs. hall. yes. mr. liebeler. and mrs. patterson, $ or $ , so that would have been $ or $ ? mrs. hall. i spent probably $ or $ myself. mr. liebeler. so it would be $ to $ ? mrs. hall. something like that, yes. mr. liebeler. go ahead with your story. mrs. hall. well, i was going to see her sometime in the lunchtime because it was very close to my work. they lived not very far from my work. and then after they--i think he lost his job in fort worth and he decided that there is better opportunity here in dallas, to move. and they couldn't, of course, afford it to move and bring her here with the child, not having a job and apartment, so i suggested, "why don't you move to my house while he is in dallas until he finds a job, and then you can move?" so that's what they did. mr. liebeler. marina moved to your house while oswald was in dallas looking for a job? mrs. hall. yes. mr. liebeler. can you tell us approximately when marina moved to your house? mrs. hall. it was in the first week in october. i don't know exactly when it was, but it was the first week in october, sometime. mr. liebeler. i understand that you helped marina move from the apartment in fort worth to your house in a pickup truck that you borrowed? mrs. hall. yes; patterson had a pickup truck. mr. liebeler. did anybody else help you, or just you and marina did the moving? mrs. hall. lee still was there, so when we moved, he went to dallas that night, that afternoon. mr. liebeler. was there anybody besides you and marina and lee that helped you with the moving? mrs. hall. no; nobody else. they didn't have nothing. mr. liebeler. there wasn't very much to move? mrs. hall. no; the baby was sleeping in a suitcase. and then the first time when george went---- mr. liebeler. george bouhe? mrs. hall. he saw this situation. he bought a little bed for the child and a couple of other things. he helped them very much. he was very nice about that. mr. liebeler. did oswald seem to appreciate what mr. bouhe was doing for him? mrs. hall. i don't think so. he didn't appreciate nothing, never. in fact, when she moved to my house one weekend on saturday, i don't remember when, george bouhe came and he brought a big carton of all kinds of groceries and vitamins for the baby and everything, so lee came and he asked marina, "who brought all these groceries?" and he saw in the kitchen---- mr. liebeler. this was while marina was living at your house? mrs. hall. while she was, yes. and said, "george bouhe has bought," and he was real mad at him. he said, "you are living in her house, you are not living in his house. why he brings groceries?" he was just strange man, i guess. mr. liebeler. during the time that marina lived at your house, did you purchase all the groceries and similar items for marina and the child except for what mr. bouhe brought? mrs. hall. well, nobody else would do it. she was living in my house. mr. liebeler. oswald made no contributions whatsoever for the support of the family at that time? mrs. hall. no. mr. liebeler. did he offer to contribute? mrs. hall. no. mr. liebeler. can you tell us about how long marina lived in your house? mrs. hall. well, she lived, i said in the first week in october they moved, she moved there. and then i had an accident in the middle of october and i stayed in the hospital days. when i got out from the hospital, i think it was in the end of october, after my accident, i stayed home, i think, or days. mr. liebeler. was marina there at that time? mrs. hall. yes; she was there. then i went to new york on the st of october. i went to new york, and when i came back on the th, they were gone. mr. liebeler. you don't know exactly when they moved out? mrs. hall. no, no. mr. liebeler. do you know whether oswald lived in your house with marina at any time that you were gone to new york or in the hospital? mrs. hall. that--not that i know. i don't know. mr. liebeler. did you ever discuss that with marina? mrs. hall. i saw her after that time. i saw her only on christmas one day and easter, and it was real short visit, so we didn't talk about the past. mr. liebeler. did you know where oswald lived at first when he moved to dallas from fort worth? mrs. hall. well, i heard that he lived in ymca. mr. liebeler. who told you that? mrs. hall. i heard from two friends. mr. liebeler. do you remember who particularly told you? mrs. hall. yes, mrs. clark. mr. liebeler. mrs. max clark? mrs. hall. yes. and i think george bouhe told me, or at least george bouhe suggested him to stay in ymca. mr. liebeler. you don't know of any other place that oswald might have lived when he first went to dallas other than the ymca? mrs. hall. no; i don't. mr. liebeler. did you then visit the oswald's apartment on elsbeth at any time in dallas? mrs. hall. yes; one time we went. first time on christmas day. she borrowed my sewing machine, and on the first day of christmas i bought a little toy for the baby and we went to visit them and i thought i bring my sewing machine but she said she wasn't finished with the sewing machine. so we went the first day of easter again. john's parents lived in dallas. mr. liebeler. your husband? mrs. hall. mother and father, they live here. and we went the second time and i brought the sewing machine. that was only twice i saw them after they moved from my house. mr. liebeler. did you know whether or not marina used the sewing machine? mrs. hall. yes. mr. liebeler. did you see her using it? mrs. hall. no; i didn't see her using it, but after that when i brought it, i opened it and saw all this, she had probable difficulty with the stitches, and there is pieces of something in there, and she just sewing on it, and i just closed it and i never did touch it again. mr. liebeler. did you see any clothes that marina made with the sewing machine? mrs. hall. she didn't make any clothes. but the clothes that friends of mine gave to her, lots of clothes, she was trying to alter them and things like that. mr. liebeler. did marina know how to use the sewing machine? mrs. hall. yes; i think. she told me she could. i never did see her sewing, but she said she could. mr. liebeler. about the time that marina lived in your house, did you understand that the oswalds were having any marital difficulties? mrs. hall. well, i think she was stubborn, and he was just cruel to her, and they would argue for nothing, just nothing. and he would beat her all the time. mr. liebeler. beat her? mrs. hall. oh, yes. in fact, first time when she came to my house with george bouhe, she had black and blue over half of her face and i didn't ask at that time, but after she moved in my house, i said, marina, what was on your face? and she told me that he beat her. mr. liebeler. the first time that marina came to your house, can you remember exactly when that was? mrs. hall. in july. sometime in july. mr. liebeler. and you noticed even in july that she had been bruised, is that correct? mrs. hall. yes. mr. liebeler. but it wasn't until october or november---- mrs. hall. october when she moved. mr. liebeler. that you learned that she had gotten those bruises as a result of her husband beating her, is that right? mrs. hall. yes. mr. liebeler. at the time in october that marina lived in your house, did she discuss with you her marital relations with oswald? mrs. hall. yes. well, she is, i think she is very nice girl. and i told her, "marina, you are in such a difficult financial situation, you'd better not have children for quite a while, and when you have a better financial situation, you can have them." and she said, "well, i don't know." and i told her, "if you want to, i have a lady doctor, dr. taylor. if you want me, i will take you there. she will give you some things." and she said, "no; i don't think so." she said, "our married life is so strange that i don't think i ever will have any children any more," because he was very cold to her. mr. liebeler. did marina indicate at that time that she and oswald did not have normal sexual relations. mrs. hall. very seldom. the thing that she told me, "very seldom." mr. liebeler. tell me everything that you can remember about that subject that marina told you. mrs. hall. that was the only thing that was worrying me, her to not have children, because they are in such bad shape, and that is the only thing she told me. and i said, "if you think you want any more." so it is none of my business, you know. mr. liebeler. is that all that marina said about that subject? mrs. hall. we didn't talk any more, because it was my suggestion to her to not have children, and she told me that, and that was all. mr. liebeler. did she ever tell you that oswald would--was not very much of a man in that sense? mrs. hall. yes. that is what she told me. mr. liebeler. they very seldom had sexual relations? mrs. hall. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. did you ever discuss that question with her any other time? mrs. hall. no. mr. liebeler. did you form an impression as to how lee and marina were getting along with each other at the time that marina lived in your house, other than what we have already talked about? mrs. hall. no. couple of times i told her, "why do you argue with him about little things," and she said, "oh, because he is not a man." that is what she told me. for instance, i like hot peppers and he didn't like it. well, is nothing wrong with a man who doesn't like peppers. john doesn't like it at all. and at the table they were eating, and i ate the peppers, and he wouldn't touch, and she said, "he is afraid of everything, hot peppers." and he said, he don't like it, and they had argument about that. and after he left i said, marina, you shouldn't do that because, well, some people like them and some don't." well, things like that, she would start with him and they had an argument. probably if i wouldn't be there, they would have a fight or something. mr. liebeler. did you ever have the feeling that marina was a good wife to oswald, or did you have the feeling that she was not particularly a good wife? mrs. hall. well, she is a little bit lazy one, and she can sleep hours a day. that is the only thing. and maybe they had trouble because of this and little things, like i said about the peppers and so on. mr. liebeler. did you ever see or hear of marina making fun of oswald in front of other people? mrs. hall. who? mr. liebeler. marina making fun of lee? mrs. hall. oh, yes; she would do it. mr. liebeler. can you think of any specific examples? mrs. hall. she always was complaining about him. he was not a man. he is afraid. i don't know, not complete, i guess, or something like that. not complete man. mr. liebeler. this may not seem to be too important, but we are not just curious, it might have a bearing on the commission's determination of what kind of man oswald was and what kind of person he was. did marina make fun of oswald's sexual inability in front of other people, or was it a more general thing? mrs. hall. generally. i never heard sexual nothing; no. only when i asked her about this, she told me. and that was, we don't talk any more about this. i didn't hear it. maybe somebody else did. i didn't. mr. liebeler. you had the feeling, i gather from what you said, that if there were difficulties in the oswald marriage, they were not entirely lee oswald's fault? it also would be some of the fault of marina? mrs. hall. yes. mr. liebeler. what is your opinion? mrs. hall. i think that she is stubborn, real stubborn, and she would pick up something little and go on and have an argument for nothing. mr. liebeler. did you ever hear them argue about politics? mrs. hall. no, sir; i never did discuss politics because i saw the marx books and everything on his table, and i never did even go to a conversation with him. but sometimes i would ask her, "how is life in russia?" and well, she would tell me that nothing, in what you go to the restaurant, and they don't have food, and things like that and he would get mad at her. "that is not true. they have everything." and so on. and she would tell, i guess, the truth, and he wouldn't like that. mr. liebeler. oswald sometimes expressed a more favorable view of life in russia than marina did? mrs. hall. yes. mr. liebeler. was that a common thing for them to argue about? mrs. hall. well, they didn't argue, but when i was asking questions, she would tell the truth, and he would say, "no; that is not true in russia. it is better" something. not all the people think---- mr. liebeler. you mentioned these books that you saw in oswald's apartment. do you remember any specific names of these books or magazines that you saw? mrs. hall. no; i don't, but i know some of them belonged to the downtown library, fort worth library. mr. liebeler. do you remember whether these books related to particular subject matter? were they books about marxism and that sort of thing? mrs. hall. yes. mr. liebeler. you do remember that? mrs. hall. yes; i remember one of the books was real thick and black, i think. i don't remember any names. mr. liebeler. you don't remember the specific names of any of the books? mrs. hall. no. mr. liebeler. do you speak russian, mrs. hall? mrs. hall. yes. mr. liebeler. did you ever talk to lee oswald in russian? mrs. hall. all the time. mr. liebeler. did you form an opinion of his ability to use the russian language? mrs. hall. yes. mr. liebeler. what was that? mrs. hall. very good. i think he talked very good russian. he could read and write and everything. and he, in fact, a few times i told him, i said, lee, why don't you speak in english with marina and let her learn english?" and he said, "no. then i am forgetting my russian." i said, "you don't need the russian language now in the united states. she needs english." and he said, "no, i won't." he never will talk english to her. mr. liebeler. did you also speak to marina in russian? mrs. hall. yes. mr. liebeler. what kind of command of russian did she have? how well could she speak russian? mrs. hall. very well. mr. liebeler. was she better able to speak russian than lee oswald? mrs. hall. yes; of course. mr. liebeler. but in your opinion, lee did have a good command of the russian language? mrs. hall. very good. mr. liebeler. was it grammatically correct, would you say? mrs. hall. yes. mr. liebeler. is your own command of the russian language good, would you say? mrs. hall. i thought it was good, and i think it is good, i don't know. mr. liebeler. what language did you learn as a child? mrs. hall. russian. mr. liebeler. so that was the first language you spoke, is that right? mrs. hall. we spoke russian in our home, and i was in french school. then i was in russian school again. mr. liebeler. you also speak french? mrs. hall. yes. mr. liebeler. what is your language in iran? iranian? mrs. hall. armenian. and i think---- mr. liebeler. do you speak turkish? mrs. hall. turkish a little bit. mr. liebeler. did you ever try to speak to marina oswald in english? mrs. hall. no; i never did. i wasn't so long with her to try to teach her something. mr. liebeler. it was quite clear to you, was it, that marina could not speak english at all? mrs. hall. yes; she could understand a little bit what the conversations was about, if i was talking to somebody. but she couldn't understand all little things. mr. liebeler. now you first met marina, you say, in approximately july of . did you have an opinion as to how much english she could understand at that time? mrs. hall. well, i think it was the same thing. mr. liebeler. she didn't seem to learn too much english as time went on, is that right? mrs. hall. well, george bouhe tried to teach her, and he brought her books and things like that. and once a week or twice a week she was sending her homework or something to him. he would correct her and sometimes, on a weekend, he would come and teach her more. that was all that i know that she has of english. mr. liebeler. do you know mr. peter gregory? mrs. hall. yes; i know him. mr. liebeler. do you know his son, paul? mrs. hall. no; i never met him. mr. liebeler. did marina ever speak of paul gregory to you? mrs. hall. no. mr. liebeler. do you know gary taylor? mrs. hall. yes. well, one time lee, while marina was in my house--in fact, i just came out from the hospital accident--this gary taylor and his wife, they brought lee. it was on sunday. they brought him to fort worth, and then they went back together, lee oswald and the taylors. mr. liebeler. gary taylor's wife at that time was the daughter of george de mohrenschildt, is that correct? mrs. hall. that's right. mr. liebeler. do you know mr. de mohrenschildt? mrs. hall. yes; i met him. mr. liebeler. do you know him well, or are you a casual acquaintance of his? mrs. hall. i saw him altogether maybe three or four times. mr. liebeler. did you ever talk to de mohrenschildt about lee oswald? mrs. hall. i don't think i did. mr. liebeler. did you know whether de mohrenschildt was a close friend of oswald's? mrs. hall. yes. some friends told me again that they are very close with lee oswald. well, in week, because they couldn't go nowhere and didn't have a car, and de mohrenschildt came for him. mr. liebeler. did you ever see oswald drive an automobile? mrs. hall. no. in fact, one time i asked oswald. i said, talking something about the car, and i said, asked him, "can you drive a car?" and he said, "no". i said "how come?" he said, "well, i just can't." and i said, "every kid in high school can drive a car. how come you can't?" and he said, "well, i just can't." mr. liebeler. did you ever hear of oswald learning how to drive a car? mrs. hall. no. mr. liebeler. you mentioned previously that mr. bouhe asked you if you could help in getting marina's teeth fixed. do you know whether marina ever did get her teeth fixed? mrs. hall. well, she needed a few teeth extracted, and george bouhe made an appointment for her here in baylor. and the few times she came--and extracted them and came back. mr. liebeler. did marina ever tell you who paid for this work to be done? mrs. hall. no; she did not tell me. mr. liebeler. do you know who paid for it? mrs. hall. no. maybe george bouhe did, i don't know. mr. liebeler. did you ever have any discussions with marina about religion? mrs. hall. yes. while she was in my house, she asked one time, she said, "elena. i want to baptize my baby." she said, "well, i was baptized. my grandmother baptized me, but when i talk about religion and baptize, he don't want to even hear it, so how about baptizing the baby." and i called father dimitri here in dallas, and it is greek orthodox church, and i told him the situation and who they are, and she wanted baby baptized. and he said, that is fine, so i took her one night, her and the baby, and we--i am a godmother of the child. and, of course, when lee found it out, it was too late already, and he, of course, didn't like it at all. mr. liebeler. do you remember anything, specifically that he said about that? mrs. hall. no. marina told me when i saw her at christmas--i asked her, and she said, of course, he didn't like it. mr. liebeler. you mentioned before that at christmastime in , you went over to oswald's apartment in dallas, is that correct? mrs. hall. that's right. mr. liebeler. who was there at that time? mrs. hall. me, marina, and the child--lee---- mr. liebeler. can you remember what the discussion was at that time? what did you talk about? do you have any recollection? mrs. hall. well, when we went in, they didn't have any christmas tree, no nothing. and i looked and i said, "where is your christmas tree?" and lee said, "what christmas tree?" and i said, "well, everybody has a christmas tree." and lee said, "no; we don't have christmas tree." then john started to talk with him about religion. i think it was christmastime, yes; and then he said that it is just commercialized, a commercialized holiday. mr. liebeler. do you remember what your husband said in response to that remark by oswald? mrs. hall. no; but i don't remember whether it was at that time or at easter when john talked with him and said, "well, we sometimes come to dallas to go to church. if you want to, they will come and--we will come and take you with us." and he said, "no; not me. if marina wants, she can go with you." mr. liebeler. oswald indicated that he himself did not care to go to church? mrs. hall. he said no; he wouldn't, but if marina wants, he didn't believe in nothing. mr. liebeler. did marina ever go to church with you and your husband? mrs. hall. no; she never did go. well, i never did see them after easter. mr. liebeler. do you know after marina moved out of your house where she went? mrs. hall. well, i guess they had an apartment at elsbeth. mr. liebeler. as far as you know, they moved to an apartment on elsbeth street, and she stayed there with lee until subsequently lee moved around the corner to an apartment on neely street, is that right? mrs. hall. yes. the first time when we went there on christmas, we went to elsbeth. and the second time the landlord told me that they moved a couple of blocks from it, so we went there on eastertime. mr. liebeler. did you ever hear that marina moved out of the apartment on elsbeth street shortly after she returned to lee and shortly after she moved out of your house and went to live with a friend of hers in dallas? mrs. hall. i think they had an argument and she left one night and she went, i think, to meller's house and she stayed there. that is everything i hear. i don't know exactly, but through a friend you just hear things like that. mr. liebeler. you don't have any direct knowledge of that instance? mrs. hall. no; i mean i wasn't in touch with them at all, never. mr. liebeler. let's go back to the time that you went to oswald's apartment at christmastime. do you remember anything else that was discussed at that time, or have you given us your best recollection as to what the conversation was? mrs. hall. with him? mr. liebeler. yes; with him or with marina. mrs. hall. john was asking him a question, how does he like his work. and does he learn something. and sometimes he can go into business for himself. and so he said, "no; i never think that i will go to business for myself." and he said something about security, i don't have any security here on my job. i don't know if i am still there another week or so. and he said something about russia. mr. liebeler. did that seem to concern oswald that he didn't know how long he was going to have his job? mrs. hall. yes; he was concerned about that. and he said in russia you don't have to worry about that. mr. liebeler. did oswald indicate that he wanted to go to russia? mrs. hall. no; well, he never did say. mr. liebeler. did you get the impression that he had a desire to return to the soviet union? mrs. hall. yes; i think if he would have money, he would go back, but she never did want to go back. mr. liebeler. did she tell you that? mrs. hall. yes. mr. liebeler. what did she tell you about that? mrs. hall. well, i was telling her--she said the life is so bad there. bad in a way like they don't have luxuries that they have here. they don't have grocery stores like here and things like that. she missed her--she don't have relatives--i think she has only, i mean she don't have parents, but she has relatives, and she says, "sometimes i miss them but i wouldn't like to go back and live." mr. liebeler. she never at anytime indicated any desire to return to russia; is that right? mrs. hall. in fact, i had the impression that she married him only to just get out from that place. mr. liebeler. where did you get that impression? mrs. hall. well, i don't know, because i don't think she ever loved him. mr. liebeler. what makes you say that, mrs. hall? what do you base that statement on? mrs. hall. well, because they had arguments from the time they were married, i think, and the little things she said, and seems like she never did like him. mr. liebeler. did she ever tell you specifically that she married oswald to come to the united states? mrs. hall. no; she never did. mr. liebeler. did you discuss this question with your friend as to whether or not marina married him to get to come to the united states? mrs. hall. i think i mentioned to somebody. i don't remember who. mr. liebeler. do you think that was a generally held opinion then, in the russian community in dallas that that was one of the reasons why marina married oswald, or do you? mrs. hall. no; i don't know what they thought. mr. liebeler. you mentioned that on easter you went to the oswalds to take a gift to the baby, is that correct? mrs. hall. yes; that's right. mr. liebeler. who was there at that time? just lee and marina and the baby and yourself and your husband? mrs. hall. yes. mr. liebeler. can you recall what the conversations were between you at that time? mrs. hall. well, it was about church again. john said, "if you want, we will take you." not much at all. we didn't stay very long. mr. liebeler. was any--was there any further conversation about oswald's job or desire to go back to russia that you can remember? mrs. hall. well, about job. while john and lee were talking, marina told, "did he tell you?" and i said, "tell me what?" she said that he lost his job. and i said, "no, he didn't tell me." she said, "one of those things." "he never tells anybody about himself." and then i found out he lost his job. he is not working any more. and i said, "what are you doing all day long?" and her face was rather, she had sunburn. "where did you get that sunburn?" "well, all day we go fish." there was a little bitty place on elsbeth street, and she said, "we just fish all day and eat trout. fish and eat." mr. liebeler. oswald was not working at that time? mrs. hall. no; he wasn't working. mr. liebeler. did you know where he worked in dallas when he had a job? mrs. hall. he was in kind of picture printing company, or i don't know, printing pictures or something like that. mr. liebeler. now, have you told us, to the best of your recollection, all the conversation that occurred at that time? mrs. hall. yes. mr. liebeler. that was the last time you saw lee oswald, is that right? mrs. hall. yes. mr. liebeler. you subsequently learned, however, that they had moved to new orleans, mrs. hall? mrs. hall. i didn't know it. i heard it again that they moved. mr. liebeler. do you remember who told you that? mrs. hall. i think mrs. max clark. mr. liebeler. did you subsequently have a discussion with your husband about the fact that the oswald's had left for new orleans? mrs. hall. yes; i think i mentioned to him. mr. liebeler. do you remember what he said and what you said? mrs. hall. no; i don't think we said anything. mr. liebeler. do you remember what your husband told you when you heard that oswald had gone to new orleans, that your husband, john, thought that oswald was on his way back to russia, that he had gone to new orleans to take passage on a ship to russia? mrs. hall. i don't remember. mr. liebeler. you don't have any recollection of that conversation? mrs. hall. no; i don't. i heard all these things from mrs. clark, because she is more in touch with the people here in dallas. she comes more often to dallas to see george bouhe, and we were not very much. we don't see him very much, these russian people. mr. liebeler. did you ever have any political conversations with oswald? mrs. hall. no. mr. liebeler. did you form an opinion as to oswald's political views? mrs. hall. yes. mr. liebeler. what was that opinion? mrs. hall. that he is a communist and nobody can change him. mr. liebeler. you formed that opinion because of books and literature that you had seen in his house and things that other people told you about him? mrs. hall. yes. if the man went to russia and came back, he should have learned his lesson, i guess. when he came back, he should know that here is a better place, but still he was thinking about russia. and i was raised in a very anti-communist family. mr. liebeler. and you didn't have much sympathy with oswald's attitude? mrs. hall. no; none at all. mr. liebeler. did marina ever tell you that she wanted to move to dallas because she heard there were english classes held at the ymca? mrs. hall. yes. mr. liebeler. when did she tell you that? mrs. hall. well, i guess while she was living in my house; or no, it was before that time. well, george bouhe told her that they had classes here in dallas. mr. liebeler. did you ever ask marina whether she had gone to any of these classes? mrs. hall. yes. the first time when i saw her at christmas, i asked her, and she said, "no; how can i go. he won't babysit at night, and i have to take bus to go downtown." and she couldn't do it. mr. liebeler. do you know jack ruby or jack rubenstein? mrs. hall. no. mr. liebeler. do you know of any connection between oswald and rubenstein or ruby? mrs. hall. no; i don't. in fact, at that time they never talked about his mother, marguerite oswald, and i had the impression that marina had never met her, because she never mentioned to me. she told me that they live in oswald's brother's house for a week or so before they found this apartment in fort worth. mr. liebeler. but marina never mentioned lee's mother to you at all? mrs. hall. no. and i had that impression that she is not in texas, something like that. mr. liebeler. you later learned from reading the newspaper that marguerite oswald did live in texas? mrs. hall. yes. mr. liebeler. but you never heard lee oswald mention his mother at any time? mrs. hall. no. he never would talk. he would just sit there and look, or if he had something to read, he would read. mr. liebeler. did he read quite a bit? mrs. hall. yes; i think he did. mr. liebeler. do you have any way of forming an opinion as to what he did with his time when he wasn't at work? mrs. hall. he was lying on the floor or on the couch and reading. mr. liebeler. he didn't have any other outside activity that he had other than his work? mrs. hall. no. mr. liebeler. you mentioned the fact that he had done some fishing at the little pond in dallas? mrs. hall. that is when he didn't have any job. mr. liebeler. do you know mr. alexander kleinlerer? mrs. hall. yes. he was coming to my house while john and i were divorced. that was all. mr. liebeler. what? mrs. hall. i said, that was all he was coming, you know. mr. liebeler. did mr. kleinlerer tell you that during the time that you were in the hospital and subsequently when you were in new york, that he came to the house to see how marina was and how she was getting along? mrs. hall. yes. he didn't tell me, but mrs. clark told me, because when i came back from new york, john was in fort worth already, and we got married after days and i didn't see him any more. i didn't see this kleinlerer any more. mr. liebeler. have you ever seen him since then? mrs. hall. no. mr. liebeler. you had no discussions yourself with kleinlerer about what marina was doing or who was at the house while you were gone? mrs. hall. no. mrs. clark told me that sometime he would take marina to grocery store, and sometimes she would take her. mr. liebeler. how did you make arrangements to pay for these groceries for marina while you were in the hospital and you were in new york? did you give her money, or did you have a charge account at the grocery store, or something like that? what was it? mrs. hall. i didn't give her money that time. mr. liebeler. how did she get groceries during the time that you were gone to new york and during the time that you were in the hospital, do you know? mrs. hall. i don't know. maybe mrs. clark or mr. kleinlerer paid for her. mr. liebeler. but you yourself did not pay for any of her groceries? mrs. hall. no; i did not. mr. liebeler. but during the time that you and marina both were living at the house, you paid for the groceries, is that correct? mrs. hall. yes. mr. liebeler. how long did both you and marina live in the house together? mrs. hall. well, i guess weeks. mr. liebeler. that you were actually together in the house? mrs. hall. yes. but i was working all the time. and in fact--that time when she was in my house, sometimes i stayed for overtime. i worked overtime at nights. mr. liebeler. were you doing work as a dental technician at that time? mrs. hall. yes. mr. liebeler. during the time that you knew the oswalds and these various meetings that you had with them, did you discuss with them the reasons as to why lee oswald went to russia in the first place? mrs. hall. no. mr. liebeler. did you ever discuss with either one of them, or were you present at a discussion where he told anybody what kind of a job he had in russia? mrs. hall. he was working in some kind of factory, i think. i don't remember, really. i never did talk about this with him. mr. liebeler. you don't remember that he told you or anybody when you were there, how much he was paid in the factory, do you? mrs. hall. well, i think rubles, russian rubles, i think. well, i don't know. i think she had rubles. he had a little bit more. mr. liebeler. that was while marina worked, too? mrs. hall. yes. mr. liebeler. did oswald say that he had any other source of income when he was in russia from any source other than his job? mrs. hall. no. mr. liebeler. did he ever tell you, or did you ever hear that he received help from the red cross while he was in the soviet union? mrs. hall. no; i never heard of it. mr. liebeler. did he ever mention any hunting trips that he had gone on when he was in russia? mrs. hall. i don't know. he never did mention it to me. mr. liebeler. you have no recollection of having heard him speak of such a thing? mrs. hall. no. i never spoke with him very much, because i think we were allergic to each other. he didn't like me and i didn't like him at all. mr. liebeler. did you ever see a gun of any kind in any of their possessions? you said that you moved them? mrs. hall. no; i did not. mr. liebeler. you never knew them to own a firearm of any type, is that right? mrs. hall. no. mr. liebeler. did marina tell you anything about her youth in russia, where she lived and what kind of things she did? mrs. hall. not very much, really. mr. liebeler. did she tell you that she had been born in leningrad? mrs. hall. yes; she told me she was living in leningrad and then moved to minsk. mr. liebeler. did she tell you why she moved? mrs. hall. no. mr. liebeler. did you ever hear from anybody else why she moved? mrs. hall. no. mr. liebeler. did you ever discuss with the oswalds the reason why they returned to the united states? mrs. hall. well, because i think he changed his mind. mr. liebeler. do you know any specific reasons that made him change his mind? mrs. hall. no; i don't. mr. liebeler. did it seem strange to you that the oswalds could leave russia and come back to the united states together like they did? mrs. hall. yes; it was kind of strange. mr. liebeler. did you ever discuss that with the oswalds? mrs. hall. no. mr. liebeler. did you ever discuss it with anybody else? mrs. hall. well, once when they came to fort worth, it was all over the papers, you know, and like we russians, we just want to know. i mean, we read the paper, and oswald tried to call a few people, and i called mrs. clark, and she didn't know what to do, and we don't know. is it good or bad, really, for us to get in touch with them? so finally john or george bouhe got in touch with them, and i told mrs. clark and all the russians told probably, it is okay. mr. liebeler. well, did you ever have any discussion with these russian people as to the apparent ease with which oswald was able to leave the soviet union and come back? mrs. hall. it wasn't very easy. i read in the paper that it took him over a year. well, he was a year, year in russia, he started asking to come back and it took him almost years, i guess. mr. liebeler. that is something you read in the paper after the assassination, isn't that right? mrs. hall. no; i think it was in the paper at that time. mr. liebeler. when they came back from russia? mrs. hall. yes. mr. liebeler. do you recall any conversations with any of your russian friends that you had, or anybody else, about this question of oswald's return to the united states and the fact that marina was permitted to leave russia and come with him? i don't want you to remember anything that didn't happen, but if you do have a recollection of it, i would like to have it. mrs. hall. well, i think i talked with mrs. clark about that, and we thought it strange how come they let marina come, so that was all. mr. liebeler. did you ever have any discussions with any of these people before the assassination as to whether or not oswald might be a russian agent? mrs. hall. no. mr. liebeler. did it ever occur to you prior to the assassination that oswald might be a russian agent? mrs. hall. i really don't know. it is such a hard question. only one thing i could tell, that he was such a quiet and such a--i don't know how to express myself--person, that i never thought he could do something like that. mr. liebeler. like shoot the president, you mean? mrs. hall. yes. mr. liebeler. did it ever occur to you prior to the time of the assassination that he was dangerous or mentally unstable in any way, did it? mrs. hall. no. mr. liebeler. were you surprised when you heard that he had been arrested in connection with the assassination? mrs. hall. very much so. mr. liebeler. did you have any conversations with your friends about it then? mrs. hall. in fact, when i was watching tv and i saw all the shooting, after a few minutes mrs. clark called me and said, "elena, did you hear? lee oswald--did you hear lee oswald's name?" i said "no." she said, "i heard it on the radio, and i think it was lee oswald's name." and i couldn't believe it. after an hour or so, they told that it was lee oswald, and everybody was very surprised. mr. liebeler. you say that most all of your friends in the russian group were very surprised that oswald was involved in this? mrs. hall. yes. mr. liebeler. did oswald ever express within your hearing, or did you ever hear him having expressed resentment against the u.s. government for any reason? mrs. hall. no. mr. liebeler. did he ever express resentment that it had taken a long time for him to come back to the united states after he decided to return from russia? mrs. hall. no. mr. liebeler. did you ever hear him mention president kennedy or talk about president kennedy in any way? mrs. hill. no. mr. liebeler. how about governor connally? mrs. hall. no; never. mr. liebeler. did oswald ever mention richard nixon? mrs. hall. no. mr. liebeler. you never heard of any displeasure that oswald might have had with mr. nixon? mrs. hall. no. mr. liebeler. what about general walker, did you ever hear any discussion about him? mrs. hall. no. mr. liebeler. think about it now. do you think of anything now, mrs. hall, that you can remember about the oswalds about your relationship with them, that you think the commission should know about that i haven't already asked you about? can you think of anything that you should add at this point? mrs. hall. i wish i knew more. mr. liebeler. you think we pretty well covered everything? mrs. hall. yes; that is all, i think. mr. liebeler. i have no more questions at this point. thank you very much, mrs. hall. testimony of john raymond hall the testimony of john raymond hall was taken at p.m., on march , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. liebeler. would you rise, please, and i will swear you in. do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in the testimony that you are about to give? mr. hall. i do. mr. liebeler. mr. hall, my name is wesley j. liebeler. i am a member of the legal staff of the president's commission to investigate the assassination of president kennedy. i have been authorized to take your testimony by the commission pursuant to authority granted to it by executive order , dated november , , and joint resolution of congress . copies of those two documents and also of the commission's rules of procedure governing the taking of testimony have been sent to you, i believe, in a letter from mr. rankin in which he indicated that i would contact you this week to take your testimony. have you received copies of those documents? mr. hall. yes. mr. liebeler. we want to examine you briefly concerning whatever knowledge you might have of lee harvey oswald as a result of contacts that you had with him after his return from the soviet union. mr. hall. so that this doesn't overlap what my wife would say, would you like for me to just completely eliminate anything except when just he and i were together, or would you, if it overlaps, does it make any difference? mr. liebeler. i think i want you to tell generally the contacts that you had with oswald, but i will bring that out. what is your full name? mr. hall. john raymond hall. mr. liebeler. what is your address? mr. hall. trail lake drive, fort worth. mr. liebeler. what is your employment? mr. hall. self-employed. dental laboratory. mr. liebeler. in fort worth? mr. hall. yes. mr. liebeler. what is the name of your company? mr. hall. crown & bridge prosthesis. mr. liebeler. you are a native born american? mr. hall. yes. mr. liebeler. where were you born? mr. hall. birmingham, ala. mr. liebeler. when did you move to dallas? mr. hall. i was born in and moved in approximately . mr. liebeler. when did you move to dallas? mr. hall. i beg your pardon, i moved to garland. from birmingham to garland in . and in , we moved to dallas. mr. liebeler. then did you move to fort worth? mr. hall. then i went into the service after going to college in . and then in --in , the latter part of , i moved to fort worth. mr. liebeler. when were you born? mr. hall. . mr. liebeler. ? mr. hall. yes. mr. liebeler. are you married? mr. hall. yes. mr. liebeler. what is your wife's name? mr. hall. elena hall. mr. liebeler. when were you married to mrs. hall? mr. hall. in . september the th, . mr. liebeler. am i correct in understanding that you were subsequently divorced? mr. hall. yes. mr. liebeler. then you were subsequently remarried? mr. hall. yes. mr. liebeler. when were you remarried? mr. hall. in november of . mr. liebeler. did there come a time when you made the acquaintance of lee oswald? mr. hall. yes. mr. liebeler. would you tell us the circumstances surrounding that? mr. hall. the first time was during the latter part of these marital difficulties with my wife whom i was divorced with at the time. i had started my business in odessa, tex., and i believe this was in about august of , when i was making many trips from odessa to fort worth, for the purpose of seeing my wife. and the first time, i believe it was in august of , that i met oswald, was about--when i made one of these weekend trips. i came in on friday night or saturday, and she, through her friends, mostly foreign born, george bouhe and gali clark, although gali wasn't involved in this---- mr. liebeler. your wife was born in russia? mr. hall. she was born in tehran, iran. her mother and father were born in russia. mr. liebeler. does your wife speak russian? mr. hall. yes; her mother and father moved to iran when they were in their middle 's, so actually my wife is iranian. all right, then when i met oswald is on one of these weekend trips. as i understood my wife when i came in that weekend, this ex-gi and ex-marine and his russian-born wife have some difficulties along the line of finding jobs and so forth, and getting along. we went over to their apartment near montgomery ward in fort worth with george bouhe, and i forget the people's names, they were over there from dallas--de mohrenschildt's daughter and her husband, i believe that is. mr. liebeler. would that be gary and alexandra taylor? mr. hall. yes; we discussed what was going to happen, and in this oswald was going to move to dallas and try to locate a job. in the meantime, since my business was in odessa, financial difficulties they already were having, marina would move in with my wife and live there while oswald came to dallas and got a job and got himself settled. mr. liebeler. do you remember whether oswald had any job at that time? mr. hall. at that time he did not have a job, and george bouhe and i discussed this. that afternoon i called my father, who is with the murray gin co. here in dallas, because they have a machine shop and such. oswald told me that he worked in sheet-metal work in russia, and so i called dad, and dad said that he didn't think they had anything. and i told george bouhe that if he would check with personnel in the morning--that was on saturday--if he would check with them on monday morning and see, we would like to give this guy a job. it turned out that george called my father and dad talked to the personnel manager and there wasn't anything available at the murray co. then through hearsay, actually oswald came to dallas and got a job through the texas employment commission, and that was that for the time being. mr. liebeler. do you remember who told you that oswald got a job through the texas employment commission? mr. hall. george bouhe, i guess. mr. liebeler. when you went to oswald's apartment in fort worth this first time with bouhe and the other people that you mentioned, did you then meet oswald? mr. hall. oh, yes. mr. liebeler. did you speak to him, and did he speak to you? mr. hall. yes; we talked at length. mr. liebeler. can you tell me generally what he said and what you talked about? mr. hall. maybe it is the whole pattern, but he had just gotten back from downtown fort worth, walking. on the way over there my wife was telling me how destitute they were. this was my first impression. so when i walked in, he had just been to town to buy this -cent magazine on russia, which of course i thought, to myself, here they are destitute and he is spending cents on a magazine, especially about russia. we visited that afternoon. we were there for an hour or so, and nothing really important was said, that i can think of. mr. liebeler. did he tell you about his trip to russia? mr. hall. not a whole lot at this time. we were sort of impressed by his trip to russia. the emphasis was on getting him moved to dallas and getting him a job, so actually that was the main concern and talk at that time, and most of it really went on by george bouhe and myself and this taylor fellow. do you mind if i smoke? mr. liebeler. certainly not. go right ahead. did you and oswald at any time ever discuss his trip to russia in any detail? mr. hall. oh, yes. mr. liebeler. can you tell me approximately when that was? mr. hall. yes; the first time which wasn't really much in detail, several weeks later my wife had an automobile accident and i flew in from odessa on wednesday or thursday morning. i believe she had the accident on wednesday, and i flew in on thursday morning. i went straight to the hospital and saw she was all right, and spent most of the day there. and because marina was staying at our home at that time, and this was the period during the divorce, i stayed in a motel, the landmark lounge. the next couple of days gali clark, mrs. max clark, took me by the house to get some clothes or something, where i was there just a few minutes and only marina was there. that was the only contact i had with marina, thursday or friday. then oswald was in dallas during this period of time on saturday, and i was going back and forth from the motel to the hospital. then on saturday oswald came over, and his wife, who was staying at our house, as i mentioned, marina fixed borsch, russian soup, for mr. and mrs. clark, lee oswald, and myself, and i ran out from the hospital and ate with them. and during this period of time we had gotten on this thing about russia a little bit, max and oswald and myself, and the conversation was really led by max. he was questioning oswald as to the whole pattern, the whole system of government, the way it was really operated, as to the communistic principles and how jobs were secured and how people lived, and so forth. this was about all that was said there. mr. liebeler. did the question come up as to why oswald went to russia in the first place? mr. hall. not then. at this time i just ran out and ate soup, and they were still in conversation when i left to go back to the hospital, so i only stayed possibly an hour. maybe minutes. mr. liebeler. did you discuss with oswald, or ever participate in a discussion in which the question as to why he went to russia came up? mr. hall. just generally. the next time i saw oswald after--this was the car wreck; then my wife and i went to new york, and then we came back and we remarried november , i believe--we didn't see oswald again until christmas when my wife fixed a little present, i think, for the baby and we came to dallas, and we had been to church, it seems like. i think we spent the night at the cabana motel and went to church at the greek orthodox church, st. stephens, and then visited them on sunday afternoon. wait a minute, no, i am talking about christmas. that would have been during the week--anyway, we came over and visited them at christmas time and brought the little baby girl, june, a christmas present. mr. liebeler. do you remember where oswald lived then? mr. hall. yes; over in oak cliff at the first location in oak cliff, elsbeth street. i believe it was on the corner in the red apartments. mr. liebeler. at that time did you discuss with them the reasons as to why he went to russia? mr. hall. at this time, being christmas and so, and i am not real strongly religious--i mean not to any extreme, but i have my firm beliefs, and i believe in god and the fundamentals of our christianity--i am a baptist--i mentioned to oswald--this is what touched the whole thing off--they didn't have a christmas tree. we wondered why, because you can buy a christmas tree for cents, probably a little one, and my wife, i think, asked why they didn't have a christmas tree, and oswald said he didn't want a christmas tree, that he didn't believe in this sort of thing, that it was commercialized, and so forth. when he mentioned this, it got me interested in his thinking. this was actually the first time i think that--this is the third time that i saw him--i think this was the first time i felt he was odd, because when he crossed me on religion, i mean just general religion, not anything specific--when he crossed me on religion, then i was offended mentally. i might not have seemed that way--i didn't get mad or anything, but i didn't like it, and i asked him about, since he didn't have a car, i asked him if elena, when we went to the greek orthodox church here in dallas, if we might stop by and pick him up and take him with us. and he said, "oh, no, he didn't believe in christianity, that this marxism, leninism, this book, whatever the name it was---- mr. liebeler. did he have a book there? mr. hall. i didn't see it if he did. he had a lot of russian literature, i saw, but i never really thumbed through it. mr. liebeler. do you remember any specific books or periodicals that he had? mr. hall. no; i really don't. mr. liebeler. go ahead. mr. hall. well, we differed on religion. so then he told elena that he didn't believe in christianity and so forth, he said, "if you want to come by and pick up marina and take her to church, that is all right, but i am not going to go." about that time we left. the conversation wasn't interesting, and we had gone over to take this little present to the baby, and we had accomplished the purpose, so we left. mr. liebeler. when was it that you discussed with oswald the reasons why he went to russia? mr. hall. the next time was easter, if i am getting all this straight. i hadn't been in business long for myself. i was real strong for the system of free enterprise, and i asked oswald how he was getting along down at the printing place, and he said, "well, he was doing as well as could be expected, except the fact was that he didn't have security in his job and didn't like the whole setup." and i wondered why. and he said, "he didn't have security." and i told him, "well, nobody has security actually. we have to work and keep up with what is going on and keep getting ahead, and that it seemed to me like he could stay down there for or or years and learn what had to be learned and open his own shop, and that he would be bettering himself and making more money and having more niceties of life. and so the point is, with this system of free enterprise which i was real strong for, because i was trying to get ahead, and so oswald, he told me that he was, he had already been discontent with the united states, that he didn't have security, and he really didn't know where his next job was coming from, and he heard through these theories that everything was controlled by the state in russia, and that that was the reason he wanted to go, so to speak, and that is about it, inasfar as he was just unhappy with all of our systems. mr. liebeler. did he indicate to you that he had any desire to return to russia? mr. hall. yes; and even at this time--in fact, i don't remember, i don't know, it was probably at easter, he said that he wanted to go back. and i know this to be real definite that--i don't know how you want that--because when we first heard, when my wife and i first heard from the clarks that oswald was in new orleans, when he was down there word got back, i don't know how it got back, but the clarks told us he was in new orleans, and when we found this out, i told my wife that i knew that he was down there to catch a ship and go to russia. so i don't know how he said this, but he left the impression with me, or told me directly--i think it was more directly, because i know at that time he wanted to go back to russia. mr. liebeler. you have a recollection that he said that to you in so many words? mr. hall. yes; i am sure of this, because my wife, when gali clark told her, and we found out he was in new orleans, i was sure he was on his way to russia. mr. liebeler. do you think he told you that at the time you met him at easter of ? mr. hall. yes; because this is really what impressed me on religion, but things got stormy in this easter meeting. i pushed him a little bit harder at that time than i had before. mr. liebeler. did he talk to you about his experiences in russia during the time that he had previously been there? mr. hall. yes; he explained to us about living in minsk, about working in the sheet metal factory, about how food was rather short, and about the terrible expense of shoes and clothes. mr. liebeler. did he tell you how much money he was paid at the factory? mr. hall. max clark asked him this at this soup luncheon, and i really don't remember. i have read this in the newspapers, but i don't remember what it was. mr. liebeler. did he indicate to you in any way that he was receiving income while he was in russia from any source other than his job? mr. hall. no. mr. liebeler. did he tell you about any hunting trips that he might have gone on in russia? mr. hall. no. mr. liebeler. did you know that oswald owned a rifle? mr. hall. no. mr. liebeler. did you ever discuss with him any aspect of hunting or the use of firearms? mr. hall. no. mr. liebeler. you don't speak russian, do you, mr. hall? mr. hall. no, sir; this was a big disagreement at the first time we met. i know i just didn't enter into the discussion, so it was just about not wanting to teach his wife english. i was really upset about it. mr. liebeler. did he tell you why he didn't want his wife to learn english? mr. hall. he wanted to perfect his russian. he thought it more important for him to further himself in the russian language than for her to learn english. mr. liebeler. did you form an opinion as to whether or not marina oswald did understand any english, or to what extent she understood english? mr. hall. all the time, every meeting we had, i didn't feel like she could understand anything further than hello. mr. liebeler. you first met them, as you said, in fort worth in the fall of , and the last time you saw them was at easter of ? mr. hall. yes. mr. liebeler. and you maintain that opinion about marina's ability to use english throughout that entire time, is that correct? mr. hall. that's right. mr. liebeler. did oswald ever express any resentment against the u.s. government for any reason that you can remember? mr. hall. not specifically. just feeling. like on capitalism, and i don't know if this is related to the time max clark and i were together with oswald, and i don't know, oswald didn't say this, somebody told me like george bouhe, that oswald felt--and we are just middle-income people--but he felt he didn't like us, because he felt like we were true capitalists, and that was just because we had a television set in the bedroom and one in the living room. this was bitter to him. he didn't like that fact and didn't like electric can openers and things like that. mr. liebeler. he expressed that, a general resentment of the social system? mr. hall. yes. mr. liebeler. did you ever hear him say anything about president kennedy? mr. hall. never. mr. liebeler. what about governor connally? mr. hall. no. mr. liebeler. did he ever tell you why he decided to come back to the united states and leave russia? mr. hall. i really don't think so. the only reason i hesitate there is because, of course i read this in the paper, but he was talking about wanting to go back to russia, and again i say i am not sure that he told me directly that he wanted to go back to russia, either christmas or easter, or both because it was so firm in my mind that he wanted to go back to russia. and after i read in the papers that after he had only been to russia about a year, he was trying to come back to the united states, i wondered why. mr. liebeler. but he never did tell you, and you never asked him about it? mr. hall. no. mr. liebeler. did you ever form an opinion about oswald during the time that you knew him, based on your acquaintance with him and the times that you saw him? mr. hall. well, the first time we met him of course we all thought he was so-called egghead, or whatever words you want to use. and i am sure that if it hadn't been for the fact that we had feelings for his wife, we felt sorry for them because some friends of ours gave my wife some clothes to give to marina, and, of course, wanted to help her. mr. liebeler. who were they? mr. hall. mrs. i. j. flere. she gave some clothes, and i don't know, i think there were several people. my wife would know. mr. liebeler. gave clothes to marina? mr. hall. yes; as well as george bouhe. i think he gave $ or $ to my wife to buy some groceries for her and these things happen where people contributed to help. but i think i formed an opinion of him the first minutes i met him when he came back from town with this magazine, because i couldn't figure wasting the money on literature. i had a definite opinion, and it got worse and worse, and the only reason we went back christmas and easter was because the baby, elena wanted to take her an easter bunny. mr. liebeler. you didn't as of then like oswald particularly? mr. hall. no; i didn't. mr. liebeler. did you think he was mentally unstable in any way? mr. hall. i never really thought of this at the time. looking back on it now, he was certainly abnormal, in the way we are raised. mr. liebeler. but you had no thoughts at the time before the assassination that he was mentally unstable in any way? mr. hall. no. mr. liebeler. you never regarded him as being a dangerous individual in any respect, did you? mr. hall. no. mr. liebeler. did you really consider or question, or you just never thought of it? mr. hall. just never thought of it. mr. liebeler. can you think of any other thing that you might know about oswald as a result of your acquaintance with him that your wife wouldn't know, that you think you should tell us about at this point? i am correct in understanding, am i not, that your wife is really more familiar with the oswalds than you are, is that correct? mr. hall. she is more familiar with marina. as far as our meeting like christmas and easter, i did the talking in a conversation with oswald, and elena and marina were back in the bedroom talking as women do. mr. liebeler. during that period of time that you knew oswald, did you become aware of the fact that he and marina were having difficulties with their marriage? mr. hall. we heard that she was living with someone else at one time, i don't know who. my wife can probably tell you. and we also heard that he beat her up one time. mr. liebeler. did you ever see any indication that he had beaten her up? mr. hall. i didn't; no. mr. liebeler. was it your impression that the oswalds were having marital difficulties at the time marina lived in your house or in mrs. hall's house in fort worth? mr. hall. no. mr. liebeler. the only reason that marina lived there at that time was because oswald didn't have an apartment in dallas, is that correct? mr. hall. to give him a chance to get settled; yes. mr. liebeler. did you help the oswalds move? mr. hall. no. my wife moved marina from their apartment there at montgomery ward to our home in a pickup truck that she borrowed from her employer at that time. but she didn't move, or neither of us helped him move to dallas. we were in new york when they moved to dallas. mr. liebeler. do you recall when you went to new york? mr. hall. well, we got back--we were married on the th. mr. liebeler. of november? mr. hall. yes; i believe. we left about weeks earlier than that, which would be about, say, november the st, d, or d, and i came back and--a week later, and went directly to odessa, finished my business, and moved back to fort worth, met my wife at the plane on the th, and we were married on the th. mr. liebeler. do you remember how long marina had been living with your wife before you went to new york? in other words, when did marina first move into the house with your wife? mr. hall. well, she would have moved in in the late, the latter part of october, because since she left during the week that my wife actually came back from new york--you see i came back a week earlier than she did, and she moved out during the last week that my wife was in new york, and that was the middle of november. it would mean that since she stayed in our home about weeks, she moved there the latter part of october, and moved out the middle of november. we don't really know what day, i don't think. mr. liebeler. because you weren't there when she moved out? mr. hall. no; we were in new york. mr. liebeler. she was gone when you got back? mr. hall. yes. mr. liebeler. do you have any idea where oswald was living in dallas during the time his wife was living in your house? mr. hall. we understood--this is hearsay from george bouhe, i guess--that he was living at the ymca. mr. liebeler. as far as you knew, he moved directly from the ymca to the apartments on elsbeth street, is that correct? mr. hall. the next time we heard of him, he was living on elsbeth. mr. liebeler. you don't know of any other place he might have lived in dallas before taking that apartment? mr. hall. then he moved around the corner, around the corner from elsbeth to an upstairs apartment in a white house, whatever the address on neely street. mr. liebeler. n-e-e-l-y? mr. hall. i don't really remember the name, but it was upstairs, and it was easter, so they had moved between christmas and easter. mr. liebeler. did you ever lend any money to oswald? mr. hall. no. mr. liebeler. do you know whether your wife ever lent any money to them or gave any money to marina? mr. hall. i don't know about money. she bought groceries for them, for marina, but as far as money, i don't think she ever loaned them any. mr. liebeler. did your wife buy groceries for marina only during the time that marina lived in your house, is that right? or did she buy groceries for the oswalds at other times? mr. hall. no. i believe they did receive, the women contributed, and george bouhe bought some groceries over to their place by montgomery ward. mr. liebeler. prior to the time that oswald moved to dallas? mr. hall. yes; i believe so. i am not sure of it. mr. liebeler. you don't have any idea how much groceries were given to the oswalds during that period of time, do you? mr. hall. no; my wife would probably have a good idea of this in dollars. mr. liebeler. did you ever discuss with oswald his military service? mr. hall. i can't remember a thing being said, about his military service. mr. liebeler. can you think of anything else that you might know about oswald that your wife wouldn't be able to testify about, that you think the commission should know? mr. hall. no, sir; i don't believe so. mr. liebeler. did oswald ever indicate a desire to go to cuba or to mexico? mr. hall. not to me; no. mr. liebeler. did you ever hear of his indicating such a desire to anybody else? mr. hall. no. mr. liebeler. were you surprised when you heard that oswald had been arrested in connection with the assassination? mr. hall. not at all. mr. liebeler. you weren't surprised? mr. hall. no. mr. liebeler. why not? mr. hall. well, exactly our feelings, mrs. clark called my wife and said that they had arrested oswald, and we had the television set in our laboratory--at that time we were watching television and were on the wrong channel and didn't get this until or or minutes later. we did get it, and when they mentioned it was oswald, they were sure it was oswald, then all of us--i am talking about my wife and mrs. clark and max and ourself, subsequently talking, we said, "i am not surprised at all. that is the kind of guy that would do something like that." and this was generally the feeling among all the people we knew that knew him. mr. liebeler. did you have any opinion, or was any opinion expressed during these conversations as to why oswald would have done this, and if he did it, what his motive was? mr. hall. well, we felt like he was not mentally disarranged. i actually thought oswald was pretty sharp with his words. i mean the way he talked, he didn't talk like he was stupid. he was pretty sharp. if he had the right training in the right direction, he could have done something with his life. but i always thought he was just completely out in left field in politics, that he didn't come close to us, so this is actually my feeling, because he was so intent on his ideas of this book that related to the marxism theories, he was so intent and so set--in other words, when you talked to him about this, you just didn't have any idea at all that you were going to change him. even though i was trying to convince him that our system was a tremendous enterprise, was the best, when i started talking to him, i didn't feel like i had a chance to change his thinking. mr. liebeler. you think that these political attitudes of his were somehow related to his involvement in the assassination? mr. hall. say that again? mr. liebeler. do you think that these political attitudes or economic attitudes that oswald had provided him a motive to want to assassinate the president? or were related to it? mr. hall. my--this is just my personal feeling, but i definitely feel that he thought that he was going to destroy the middle of our economic way of life by doing that. mr. liebeler. you thought it was sort of a technique for him to express his resentment against the structure of our society that he disproved of? is that a fair statement of your thinking? mr. hall. exactly. mr. liebeler. did you have the feeling that oswald desired recognition for his abilities and for his ideas? recognition from people generally? mr. hall. no; i didn't think of it. mr. liebeler. did you have a feeling, or did you think about this before the assassination? mr. hall. no. mr. liebeler. you didn't think he was different from anybody else in that respect? you just never thought of it, or it never came to your mind prior to the assassination, is that correct? mr. hall. i felt just the opposite on the recognition part. mr. liebeler. he really didn't care what people thought about him? mr. hall. no; maybe he was saying this wrong to me, what he really believed. but from my thoughts, i thought that he would be happy if he had this so-called job like he was talking about in russia and had complete security. and i thought this is just what he was looking for in life, was complete serenity and happiness, no problems, no money problems, no rent problems--you see what i mean, just a middle-of-the-roader. mr. liebeler. so you didn't think he had any desire to stand out or be excellent at things? mr. hall. when i said middle-of-the-road, he had these firm ideas which couldn't be changed, as far as i am concerned, and he would go off in the other direction. so that doesn't lead him to be a middle-of-the-roader. he is, from my thinking, a rebellious-type person. he is going to do it the way he thinks right, and nobody is going to change him. mr. liebeler. did you ever hear, or did you ever take part in any discussion with anyone on the question of whether or not oswald was possibly an agent of the soviet union. mr. hall. this came up after the assassination. mr. liebeler. there was no discussion about that prior to the assassination, that you can remember? mr. hall. as an agent for russia before, no, no. mr. liebeler. and it never occurred to you at any time prior to the assassination that oswald might be a russian agent? mr. hall. we didn't figure he had sense enough in that respect. mr. liebeler. did you consider the question after the assassination and you did discuss it? mr. hall. just enough to think, "do you think it was possible." in that--and my firm thoughts about it is that, of course, that is just my thinking, but i don't see how there could be any connection. he is not responsible enough to have authority above him. in other words, he couldn't have anybody above him really telling him what to do. he couldn't take the orders. mr. liebeler. you have a feeling that oswald was resentful of authority, generally speaking? mr. hall. i say that, but if he lived in russia, with their system, he must have had a lot of authority above him. mr. liebeler. did he ever indicate to you in any way that he was resentful of authority? mr. hall. i don't know about our system of government in authority. he was just resentful of, in my thinking, i don't know, well, he was just resentful of our way of government. i don't know of anything to judge him on, how resentful he was of his superior officers in the service or anything like that, but he was resentful of our way of life. not just our government. he was resentful of our whole way of life. mr. liebeler. did he ever tell you specifically, as far as you can remember, why he was resentful of it? mr. hall. insecurity, i guess. mr. liebeler. as far as jobs were concerned? mr. hall. basically, that's right; yes. mr. liebeler. if you don't have anything else that you want to add at this point, we shall terminate your deposition. thank you, mr. hall. testimony of mrs. frank h. ray (valentina) the testimony of mrs. frank h. ray (valentina) was taken at : p.m., on march , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. liebeler. mrs. ray, before we start, i will swear you as a witness. if you will rise and raise your right hand, please---- mrs. ray. surely. (complying.) mr. liebeler. do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mrs. ray. i do. mr. liebeler. please be seated. before we start i would like to advise you that my name is wesley j. liebeler and i am a member of the legal staff of the president's commission investigating the assassination of president kennedy. staff counsel have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the commission pursuant to authority granted to the commission by executive order dated november , , and joint resolution of congress no. . i understand mr. rankin wrote you a letter last week? mrs. ray. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. with which he included copies of the executive order---- mrs. ray. yes. mr. liebeler. and congressional resolution and also a copy of the rules of procedure of the commission concerning the taking of testimony. mrs. ray. yes. mr. liebeler. you received the letter and copies of the documents? mrs. ray. yes. mr. liebeler. our questioning of you today will be concerned basically with the knowledge of the oswalds which you might have gained as a result of your association with them in . before i get into that, i would like to have you state your full name for the record, if you would. mrs. ray. mrs. frank h. ray. mr. liebeler. where do you live? mrs. ray. i live alta vista, dallas, tex. mr. liebeler. where were you born, mrs. ray? mrs. ray. in stalino, ukraine. mr. liebeler. that is in the ukraine; it is the soviet union? mrs. ray. yes. mr. liebeler. when were you born? mrs. ray. june , . mr. liebeler. how did it come about that you came to the united states? mrs. ray. when i was years old germans occupy my part of ukraine and they take me to germany as slave labor. i work for germans from until , then americans occupy part of germany where i live. mr. liebeler. what part of germany? mrs. ray. dusseldorf on rhine; in march of , americans occupy that part of germany and i went to work for americans and then i married an american and came over here. this was in , july . mr. liebeler. what was his name? mrs. ray. henry w. bahlkow. mr. liebeler. he was a member of the u.s. army? mrs. ray. yes, th division and he was--i don't know what outfit at the time but i know it was field artillery. i can give you present address if that help. mr. liebeler. is he living in st. louis? mrs. ray. no, hicksville, long island? mr. liebeler. what is his address? mrs. ray. i forget number--evelyn street. evelyn street--it would be easy to look it up and he works for sperry gyroscope. he is an electrical engineer over there. mr. liebeler. you were taken from russia at the age of ? mrs. ray. yes. mr. liebeler. did you work for the germans after that time? mrs. ray. yes. mr. liebeler. i imagine that kind of interfered with your formal education? mrs. ray. let's say it stopped it completely. mr. liebeler. what formal educational background do you have? mrs. ray. i finished seventh grade over there in russia but i think--i don't know whether it is a little bit more or not. i had already gotten into algebra, geometry, and physics and i don't know how you compare schools here to school over there. mr. liebeler. did you have any formal education other than that? mrs. ray. when i came over here i went to international institute in st. louis for about years to learn to speak english and then i went to roosevelt high school, st. louis, finished school and washington university years to study american history and english for my citizen papers and i became citizen . mr. liebeler. when did you move to dallas? mrs. ray. i moved in dallas june of . see, i married in june of ; i remarried. mr. liebeler. what does your present husband do? mrs. ray. he is in advertising; it is specialty advertising by the name of pollock and ray. mr. liebeler. that is located in dallas? mrs. ray. dickason. mr. liebeler. did there come a time you met lee harvey and marina oswald? mrs. ray. yes; i am not sure about the month. i mean closest i could come to it, i imagine, would be early november . she had been staying at mrs. ford's house. mr. liebeler. marina had? mrs. ray. yes; and mrs. ford called me up and said would i please see if i could keep her at my house a little while since she was going to have company. i said certainly she was welcome. she was alone with baby at the time and she came to my house on a saturday. i am not sure about the date; all i know is the day; spent day with me and since i have no baby bed she went back to mrs. ford's house. sunday i moved her completely over to my house with baby clothes and crib and that sunday afternoon, lee called about in the afternoon and he asked me if he could come see his baby and wife and i said certainly he can come out. he asked me "how i could get." i told him what bus to take and my husband picked him up at corner filling station on preston and forest. he came out and they went in bedroom to talk. at the time they had some kind of separation, i understand, and they talked for about an hour in the room by themselves and by that time it was getting to be suppertime so i invited them to stay and have something to eat with us. he ate and she decided to go back with him. he told her he rented an apartment so my husband packed everything back up in the car and took them to an apartment, i believe, at elsbeth street at the time and then i didn't see him for about or months. then i didn't see him for about or months, maybe months. i had gathered a lot of baby clothes from my neighbors and friends and took them down to elsbeth street and stayed about a half hour, had a cup of coffee and i left. mr. liebeler. was lee there then? mrs. ray. yes; he was there at that time and i felt uncomfortable because the more i talked the quieter he got and i felt a little out of place and in a half hour i picked up and left. i brought all these clothes for the baby. they didn't have anything in the house. he didn't seem to be ungrateful but looked like "we don't need it." he didn't say it but that look was on his face. marina thanked me for the clothes. mr. liebeler. lee did not thank you for the clothes? mrs. ray. didn't say a word. i hardly exchanged two words with him. i talked with him that the baby was beautiful, small talk is all it was. mr. liebeler. going back to the time that lee came out to your house and talked with his wife---- mrs. ray. yes. mr. liebeler. you said lee had told marina he rented an apartment? mrs. ray. yes. mr. liebeler. did you have an impression they did not have an apartment prior to that time? mrs. ray. i got impression that they did not. mr. liebeler. can you remember how you got that impression? mrs. ray. because i asked marina, you know, where he going to take her. he said he had rented apartment. i said "what kind of apartment?" she didn't say. she sounded to me like she didn't know what apartment was going to be. she had never lived in that apartment. later on when i talked to her on everything she described apartment--"i have living room, bedroom, kitchen, and bathroom"--so i am almost certain that is the impression i am stuck with. i didn't know she had apartment. he just rented to get them back. i have no idea how long she had been with her friends after that day they fight. i know she was at anna meller's and then mrs. ford's and then my house and prior to that i had no idea where she has been. mr. liebeler. did you talk to mrs. ford about the reasons for the oswalds marital difficulties? mrs. ray. i asked her what was matter and she said he was mean to her; he beat her up and she left him because of that. i felt terrible sorry for her because mrs. ford described to me she could not speak english and didn't know anybody there. that's the only reason given to me that he struck her or beat her up. mr. liebeler. mrs. ford didn't go into any greater detail as to what reason for beating her up? mrs. ray. no, no; when marina came to my house i hated to butt in since she was only with me day and days and didn't spend night. i don't like to question somebody right away what is trouble, why did you leave--i am not that nosey. mr. liebeler. this was the first time you met marina when you went to mrs. ford's to pick her up? mrs. ray. yes. mr. liebeler. had you heard about her prior to that time? mrs. ray. yes, about a year before from mrs. ford. she said there is a new girl lives in fort worth; she just got here from russia and, see, i am not sure about that time, year, months, and i said "i would very much like to meet her to see how things are in russia since it has been almost years since i left russia" at that time. of course, i was very curious to find out if conditions had changed and what is going on now. i think it is no more than normal curiosity on my part. mr. liebeler. did you have any conversations with anna meller about why marina came to stay with her or what the circumstances were? mrs. ray. none with anna meller, not about marina's circumstances at all. i came to mrs. meller one time to pick up few things that marina left over there and that was the same time when i went over to take the clothes to marina's house. i picked up a few things at anna meller's house but she had company at the time so we didn't have a chance to talk. i just said hello, picked up the things and went to oswald's place on elsbeth. mr. liebeler. at the first time that you met oswald himself was on the day that he came out to your house to talk to marina---- mrs. ray. yes; at my house. mr. liebeler. can you recall and tell us to the best of your recollection what oswald said at that time and what the conversation was? mrs. ray. my talk with him mostly just on--what did i talk to him about? i am trying to remember. it really wasn't anything. we just sort of talked about the children, small talk as i remember but he did get into a conversation with my husband which was more on economics. he could not understand how he have to work for somebody and man made all the money and gave so little in return. anyhow it was something about workers and capitalists. as i can imagine my husband said some things because, well, he worked hard all his life and had men work for him. that was said at the house, then they had another conversation in the car when he took to apartment. i was not present so i do not know what they talking about. it was still on economics and my husband just came in huffing, puffing, said he never met anybody dumber in his life, doesn't understand simple economics or how anything works in this country. he considered him a complete idiot. he didn't know how in the world i got tied up with stupid people like that but i had very little to say to lee oswald that evening he was at the house. mr. liebeler. when you spoke to marina did you speak to her in russian or in english? mrs. ray. in russian at the time. mr. liebeler. did you know whether marina could understand english? mrs. ray. at the time she could not understand but maybe few words like simple words like if i say bread or--i would say she did not understand maybe more than dozen words and that would be simple things you use every day in the kitchen, not any english at all. mr. liebeler. did you discuss with oswald the question of why he did not try to teach marina english? mrs. ray. no; but who did i ask about that? i believe i asked marina why she didn't speak english with oswald all the time. no; i did ask oswald that, i'm sorry, but that was not that evening. i asked him that when i went to elsbeth street; i asked how come he didn't speak english to her so she would learn. he said so he wouldn't forget his russian. mr. liebeler. what did you say in response to that? mrs. ray. i said after she learns english they could speak russian all time. mr. liebeler. did oswald make any response to that? mrs. ray. none whatsoever. it was very hard to talk to him. he was absolutely--you could ask him question, if you lucky, you might get answer. he did not say one word. mr. liebeler. do you know whether oswald drank at all? mrs. ray. when he came over my husband and i sit down and had a drink. i asked him if he would like to have something. he said "thank you, i don't drink," so i don't know whether it was just that day or period but from the way he said it, i got the impression he did not drink because he would have said i don't care for any today or something. mr. liebeler. can you remember anything more about the conversation that occurred that first sunday when oswald came over? mrs. ray. no; i don't think so; all was small talk. we talked about my cat, how children behaved, things that had no meaning, just to keeping the conversation going and he was so hard to talk to, why, i could not find anything he was interested in and i did not know him well enough to discuss anything else. mr. liebeler. did marina tell you anything about her background in russia, where she was born, where she was raised? mrs. ray. sir, i don't know who told me that; it is so hard to remember where i got the information from. i understand that she was raised by her mother until mother die and she lived either with grandmother or aunt, i am not sure. i think it is an aunt she said that raised her and the first time--like i said, information was from everybody; it gets to so and so and by that time, it got to me--first i heard about was she was only child and later on i found out she has sister and brother in russia. mr. liebeler. she told you that? mrs. ray. yes; she did; she has sister in russia. mr. liebeler. when did marina tell you that? mrs. ray. this was about weeks ago when i visited her but from what i understood before, she was only child. after her mother died she lived with her aunt. now, i don't know if marina told me that or i got that information from mrs. ford or some of the other people that i know. mr. liebeler. would you say you are a friend of mrs. ford's? mrs. ray. i have known mrs. ford for a long time. i would say yes. i mean she is not my very closest friend but she is a friend; yes. i see her now and then three or four times a year maybe sometimes more. she is the first russian i met here in dallas. mr. liebeler. were you at the ford's party between christmas and new year's, ? mrs. ray. yes. mr. liebeler. do you remember seeing oswald there? mrs. ray. yes; i do. i got there early because i had to bring some hor d'oeuvres for the party and they walked in and i was very much surprised to see them. i just said "hello, how's the baby?" she said "fine" and then i went and started immediately with the other people. he is so hard to talk to and this was a party and i did not want to spend my time drawing it out of him and thought i would go where there is better conversation going on and i did and in about an hour or so, it seems like they were gone. i just spoke that one time "hello, how is the baby" and made few comments. they did not stay very long and i think that is the first time she ever left baby with baby sitter; somebody was talking care. mr. liebeler. do you know how oswald came to the party? mrs. ray. yes; later on "katya"---- mr. liebeler. that is k-a-t-y-a [spelling]? mrs. ray. katya told me--that is mrs. ford--george de mohren--it's something; i don't know him very well at all. mr. liebeler. de mohrenschildt? mrs. ray. yes; they brought them to the party. mr. liebeler. did you hear any conversation about the oswalds after the oswalds left the part? mrs. ray. none. mr. liebeler. were you present at any discussions over this weekend or during the period following the ford party in which the question of whether or not oswald was an agent of the soviet union was discussed? mrs. ray. no; in fact, i have not seen anybody after the party for--normally, i don't see any of the russians that were at the time of the party. we usually see each other maybe once, twice year; one time at "katya's" house and maybe i give one, so i did not see anyone since that party except mrs. ford and we did not discuss anything about oswald at all. i might have mentioned what is he doing, where he's work and she did not say. i really have no information after that party. i did not discuss them with anybody that i can remember and i know i never discussed about him being an agent, and neither have i heard it from anybody. nobody said to me or implied he was connected in any way, you know, with russia in any way at all. nobody ever mention it to me and i have never discussed it with anyone. mr. liebeler. did oswald ever indicate to you that he wanted to go back to russia? mrs. ray. no. mr. liebeler. did you ever hear that he wanted to go back to russia? mrs. ray. not until after this all came out in the papers after the assassination. mr. liebeler. did you ever have any political discussions with oswald? mrs. ray. not--i do not know enough because--i do not know anything about politics. let us say i could not discuss it intelligently, therefore, i usually stay away from that subject. mr. liebeler. did you form an opinion of marina oswald prior to the assassination based on your exposure to her? mrs. ray. yes; i felt terribly sorry for her. i felt that lee probably would never make her any kind of a living the way he was, just made so little money and did not want her to have any friends, did not want her to learn how to speak english, objected to her wearing makeup; anything she did he objected to, almost everything, and i felt sorry for her because i felt she would be a very lonely girl living in this country and i liked her very much and wanted to help any way i could, and i was---- mr. liebeler. did you think marina was a particularly intelligent person? mrs. ray. at first i did not because i knew her so short--i mean it was a short time. at the time i thought she was just quiet and a very nice little girl and i thought she was smart but i did not think she was extremely intelligent, but since that time i think she is quite intelligent girl. i think she knows what she is doing. mr. liebeler. do you think she was immature? mrs. ray. well, immature--i did at first, i thought she was little immature. mr. liebeler. a little immature? mrs. ray. yes; then i forget just how young she is. i was probably just as immature as she is right now. it is quite a changeover come over to another country. in your own country might not be considered immature but over here without speaking english and not knowing a lot of things, people might consider you immature where you really not. mr. liebeler. how many times have you seen marina since the assassination? mrs. ray. first time she came over my house i kept baby at my house when she had to go down for questioning. mr. liebeler. do you remember when this was? mrs. ray. in february, i am not sure about dates. mr. liebeler. was that before she went to washington? mrs. ray. no; she was already staying at mrs. ford's house. this was after she moved in with mrs. ford. she brought little baby over and i took care of youngest one, rachel, and i went over there about days later and babysat for all children, mrs. ford's child and they all have to go down to see lawyer; i believe mr. mckenzie at the time. mr. liebeler. have you ever met mr. mckenzie? mrs. ray. no. then i went to see marina's house after she rented one in richardson, then i went over to take her shopping and then went over and took mr. george bouhe with me one day. then i went over one more time and that was last time. mr. liebeler. did you talk to marina at all about the assassination? mrs. ray. you know, i felt very uncomfortable asking all those questions. mr. liebeler. you did speak to her about it? mrs. ray. i did ask her and i said "do you really think he did it?" and she says "well, i think so" and i said "well, do the children miss him?" she said "no, she doesn't even--june doesn't even remember him." and then i asked if she was lonely. she said "of course, i am" and that is about the only thing. i talked about mostly her personal things not about the assassination because, i don't know, it just seems i hated to bring up the subject. i think it is a tragic thing. i thought if she wanted to volunteer something, of course, i would be happy to talk to her about it but she did not and i really did not ask. mr. liebeler. did she tell you why she thought oswald did it? mrs. ray. no; we did not go into that so much. i just ask her if she thought he did it and she said "yes, i think he did do it." mr. liebeler. did you ask her how she had been treated by the secret service and fbi? mrs. ray. she said wonderful and everyone perfect and i say same, everyone came to my house, they were very nice people. mr. liebeler. have you read in the papers since the assassination a story to the effect that oswald wanted to make an attempt on the life of richard nixon? mrs. ray. in the papers? mr. liebeler. yes. mrs. ray. richard nixon? mr. liebeler. yes. mrs. ray. no. mr. liebeler. did you discuss that with marina at all? mrs. ray. i did not even know about that. that is one i missed on richard nixon. i did not know it. mr. liebeler. the story was not that he had actually done so, that he wanted to do so and got into a discussion with marina about it. mrs. ray. that is the first i heard about it that you mention it. i am sorry, i must have missed the story and i usually read the paper but i missed that one. mr. liebeler. have you talked to mrs. ford about her conversations with marina and her relations with marina since the assassination? mrs. ray. yes; mostly i talked to mrs. ford about what she is going to do and she told me about renting house and later on she plans to go to school learn english and then she wants to go through pharmacists school. i think she wants to be a pharmacist. again, i mostly talked about her future more than anything else with mrs. ford. mr. liebeler. did you ever hear anything to the effect that lee oswald had tried to commit suicide while he was in the soviet union? mrs. ray. i don't know; did i read that in the paper or what? but i remember vaguely that he tried to commit suicide but i don't know how or when. i vaguely remember reading about that. i think it was in the paper. mr. liebeler. you don't think you learned that from marina or someone else? mrs. ray. no. mr. liebeler. did you ever hear anything about marina wanting to commit suicide or attempt to? mrs. ray. no; never. mr. liebeler. when you spoke to oswald did you speak to him in russian? mrs. ray. no; i spoke to him in english. mr. liebeler. did you ever hear him speak russian? mrs. ray. yes; he speak to marina and baby always. mr. liebeler. did you form an opinion as to his ability to speak russian? mrs. ray. he spoke fairly good russian. he had the accent, the ending, every time you change a sentence you change the ending and his were not quite as russian would be. it was russian definitely spoken by foreigner. mr. liebeler. did you think he spoke russian well? mrs. ray. yes; because i could understand everything he said and i think--i don't know, i think he spoke russian as well as i speak english but it was quite well; russian to me is harder to learn than english would be and it would take longer than , years living in russia to learn perfect it. mr. liebeler. do you think he spoke russian with an ability of about what you would expect after living in russia for years or do you think he spoke russian as well as that or better than that? mrs. ray. his pronunciation was very, very good. his only mistakes were mostly on endings of words, you know, as i recollect, but i don't know. i think he spoke maybe little bit better than average person would speak. mr. liebeler. after years or so? mrs. ray. yes. mr. liebeler. it did not strike you as being extraordinarily better? mrs. ray. no. mr. liebeler. you did not think he had any special training in the russian language? mrs. ray. no; i did not think so. mr. liebeler. did you ever discuss this question with him? mrs. ray. no. mr. liebeler. did marina ever tell you anything about living in leningrad? mrs. ray. yes; because--i don't know whether marina told me or mrs. ford when i first heard. she told me there's girl came from leningrad, you know, that is from one person to another, from minsk to leningrad; when i first heard about marina they said she came over here from leningrad. mr. liebeler. you don't recall anything about hearing anything about marina moving from leningrad to minsk, do you? mrs. ray. no. mr. liebeler. you don't know, of course, why marina moved from leningrad to minsk, if she did? mrs. ray. no. mr. liebeler. did marina ever tell you anything about how she met oswald in russia and why she married him? mrs. ray. i do not know how she met him but she said she fell in love and married him but this we talked last few weeks, i talked to her about that. mr. liebeler. can you tell us how that conversation came up and what was said? mrs. ray. i think she asked me how i came over and i told her. i asked her how did she. i don't think i asked how she met lee; i just--what did she tell me? isn't it funny, i don't remember. she might have said something. i don't remember if she did or not. i think i did ask how they met and i cannot quite place where they did meet. isn't that funny? this is just few weeks ago--me and my brain, but i know they said they went together little while and she fell in love with him. mr. liebeler. could you tell us what your first name is? mrs. ray. my first name is valentina. mr. liebeler. you never got the impression that marina married oswald just to get out of russia, did you? mrs. ray. well, she never said in so many words but i imagine that had a lot to do with it. mr. liebeler. what do you mean when you say you "imagine"? mrs. ray. if you ever lived in russia, believe you me, you grab first chance get out of there if you halfway smart. after americans came into germany i had chance to go back to russia. i chose to stay in germany. i was so young when i left but i still know that life in germany was far superior to russian. i decided of my own free will not to go back to russia. i could have very easily but did not want to. mr. liebeler. so, your thought that marina might have had that in her mind when she married oswald is based on your own experience? mrs. ray. yes; in russia, girl would be more than glad marry an american and come over here. yes; i base it strictly on my own experience. mr. liebeler. did you form an opinion of oswald himself as a result of your acquaintance? mrs. ray. yes; i thought he was rather arrogant and i did not think he was even--i did not think him too intelligent and terribly unfriendly and very much of a loner. he did not seem to care for anybody. he did not talk to anybody. you get the impression he does not like you even though you did not do anything or speak two words to him. mr. liebeler. were you surprised when you heard he had been arrested in connection with the assassination? mrs. ray. when i saw it on television, i almost fainted. i could not believe it. it was terrible surprise. my reaction is "my god, it's lee oswald" when i saw his picture. first i heard name; they said they suspected lee oswald and for moment, i could not connect name but i know i heard it some place and when i saw his picture, that is first i knew he was back in dallas. i knew they moved to new orleans. i had not heard they were back in dallas. of course, i immediately called mrs. ford and talked to her about that. i said, "do you know it's lee oswald?" she said, "yes; i know." i was terribly, terribly surprised it was him. mr. liebeler. did mrs. ford seem to be surprised? mrs. ray. she was just as shocked as i was. i must say when i knew lee he did not strike me as assassination type but then i knew him so shortly. it is not if i knew him for long time. i had no way form any kind of opinion what kind of person he was. mr. liebeler. but he never struck you at that time as being dangerous or prone to violence? mrs. ray. i thought he was just capable of striking his wife because he was striking his wife. i think i resented him from the first time when i heard he struck his wife. i resent any man, of course. i probably met him not liking him to start out with for that simple reason that he struck marina. mr. liebeler. did you or your husband ever give any money to the oswalds? mrs. ray. no. mr. liebeler. you said you gave some baby clothes? mrs. ray. baby clothes, yes; they were used baby clothes i just gathered from my friends and whatever i had left. see, i had small children, too. i have three, , , and and at that time my -year-old, little boy, she could wear all underthings. she could wear corduroy pants and stuff like that. mr. liebeler. did you ever learn of anyone else giving the oswalds any money or groceries or clothes or anything like that? mrs. ray. no; i think everybody tried to help her with clothes, mostly. i gave her some of my clothes and i knew we all had given them things but i don't know of anyone gave them money and i believe mr. george bouhe tried to help him find job; i knew that much and i don't know if they succeeded. i think last job, i think he had with some printing company, i believe mr. bouhe found for him. he was making $ . an hour. mr. liebeler. did marina have any money or did you ever see her spend any money? mrs. ray. no; i never was around her much that she ever went to store. she never had any clothes hardly for herself except what was given by us. mr. liebeler. do you know what lee and marina oswald talked about that night lee came over to your house? mrs. ray. no; i sent them in bedroom and they talking. i think mostly it was he begged her to come back. mr. liebeler. but marina never told you what they talked about? mrs. ray. no; she said he practically went on knees and begged her to come back; he was very--and she left. she mostly mention he cried and begged her and said "i think i go back." i said, "after all, he is your husband," i said, you know, "better, of course, you go back." mr. liebeler. have you had any discussions with any of your friends or have you given any thought since, yourself, since the assassination as to what might have motivated oswald to do this, assuming he is the one who killed the president? mrs. ray. of course, we discussed the assassination but we mostly say did you ever think he would do it, and, say for instance, i would say to mrs. ford; she said "no; i never dreamed he would do it." then we would discuss lot of people say he was maybe connected with someone else but to my knowledge everybody i asked, nobody thinks he was connected with anyone, but done it on his own. mr. liebeler. did you discuss why he might have done it? mrs. ray. no; because i don't know and i don't think anybody really knows what prompted him to do such a thing. mr. liebeler. have you discussed with your friends and thought about any possible connection between oswald and jack ruby? mrs. ray. quite a few friends called me and asked me if i knew anything about it and i said no, that i had no idea he would be connected with ruby. he was not the kind of man to go into night clubs or any place like that; therefore, when i read article in paper where he had been in carousel club, i was very much surprise because did not seem like lee oswald. he was not a nightclub, girlie-show-type, not to me at all and i talked to marina in last few weeks and she said he never wanted to go to nightclub. he despised them. mr. liebeler. has marina ever indicated to you since the assassination or even before the assassination what kind of husband oswald was to her? mrs. ray. we talked little bit about that since--i mean this last few weeks, february or even first of march, i asked her, she said he was very kind to her. he would tell her more things than he would anybody else. he could completely confide in her at times, even cry sometime when he talk to her, when he talked to her about his feelings and ambitions and he was just absolutely crazy about his children. he was positively and he was so possessive about the children even in my presence, it was uncomfortable. he would feed that little girl until she couldn't open her mouth. he said, "let me see your teeth" and he would stick another spoonful until the child would throw up and until now she's rotten spoiled and marina said it is because of him. he worshiped her, i should say. he did absolutely everything for that child and he did hit her sometimes and then he would cry, "why did i do it; what possessed me to do it" but, i said, "do you think he loved you?" she said, "yes, i am certain he did love me" and this is after this all happened. mr. liebeler. did marina ever say anything to you about oswald's attitude toward sex or their own sexual relations? mrs. ray. she never said and i have never asked her but i think i did hear from mrs. ford he was rather cold man; that is remark she made to me and that is only thing i knew about it. we did not go into it. mr. liebeler. you never discussed it with marina? mrs. ray. no; i don't know; that is private subject. i would not discuss it with her. she never volunteer and i never did ask. mr. liebeler. did you ever hear any stories or rumors prior to the assassination or at anytime, for that matter, to the effect that marina was remotely involved or interested in any of the people in the russian group or colony or anybody prior to the assassination? mrs. ray. no. mr. liebeler. did you have any reason to believe yourself that anything like that may have been the case? mrs. ray. no; no reason at all. i do not know who it could be; most are older people. mr. liebeler. there was nothing that you ever heard or had any reason to suspect about oswald being abnormal, homosexual in anyway? mrs. ray. no, i did not know anything about it, nor did i suspect anything about that. i read someplace in newspaper something, trying to tie him in with something homosexual but i did not hear it from anybody at all. mr. liebeler. and you did not suspect it yourself? mrs. ray. no, no; i certainly did not. at least i did not think he looked like one; then i don't know what one looks like. mr. liebeler. did you ever have any information or knowledge to the effect that oswald owned a rifle prior to the assassination? mrs. ray. no; in fact, i am surprised how in the world he could have bought it with as little money as he was making; how can you afford to buy a rifle. mr. liebeler. i don't think i have any more questions at this point. i want you to feel free to add anything that you think the commission might want to know about or should know about. mrs. ray. i know i forgot something when she was at my house. mr. george bouhe and i took her out to lunch. actually, george bouhe took us out, her and me, to lunch. mr. liebeler. this was after the assassination? mrs. ray. no; this was when she was staying at my house in . we were trying discuss what we were going to do with her because she had left her husband, with one child, could not speak english and both knew she could not go from one friend to another. first thing she had to do was speak little bit of english and i volunteered she could stay at my house as long as it is necessary and i will be talking to her in english very slowly and teach her as much as i could at the time and put her in night school where she could learn little bit more. actually, it was just luncheon to decide what, not immediately, we are going to do for her later on, so as it turned out to be, lee oswald came and got her before we did anything. mr. liebeler. was marina there at the time? mrs. ray. yes; she went to lunch with me and george bouhe. mr. liebeler. bouhe finally gave up trying to help marina and oswald? mrs. ray. he was so disgusted when she went back with lee. he would have done anything for her. he said "if she goes back, i wash my hands clean"; from then on, i don't know if he helped her or not. i know when i took him out there weeks ago, he said "there's a woman living alone and here i am calling on her." i said "i will go with you, that will help you if you afraid." we went to store; she needed baby food; it amounted to $ , groceries, baby food. mr. liebeler. when was this? mrs. ray. about weeks ago. mr. liebeler. mr. bouhe paid for the groceries? mrs. ray. yes, he said "i am years old" he said, "i got diabetes. i have enough money to live for years. i know i won't be living here years." she said "i have money." he said "i know but i have money, too." he is very generous whenever he hears someone comes to this country he is first one to help them. he helped anna meller go to school and lydia dymitruk; try to send her to school but he got tired of dragging her by the ear. she did not want to go so he gave up on her but he has always been very, very helpful with people. mr. liebeler. did you ever get the feeling oswald was resentful--thought bouhe and these other friends of bouhe were trying to interfere with his marriage? mrs. ray. i do not know whether he was resentful about that. i do not think he liked it too well but what would we do? see another russian thrown out in the street. we had to help her; it was not interference with the marriage. it was necessity of keeping roof over her head and food for her baby. mr. liebeler. my question was did you ever have any feeling that oswald resented the help; do you think it was just because he was resentful of taking things from people or do you think these people were trying to interfere with his marriage is what made him resentful? mrs. ray. i think he resented taking things from people because when she went back with him he was very unfriendly when i brought clothes to the house. i think he resented more people just gave them anything. he resented any kind of help, i think. i got the impression he was a bitter man because, i imagine when he defected to russia, it was comedown. he expected them to give presidency job; he was american and should have a job like that and i think his hopes went down drain. he seemed like bitter man to me. he thought he wasn't getting his full share of things he should be getting and i do not know what that could be and i really did not know him well enough to add anything else to it because i spent, all in all, i don't think i spent an hour actually talking to him alone. mr. liebeler. if you cannot think of anything else that you think you would like to tell us, i have no further questions. mrs. ray. i do not know. mr. liebeler. can you think of anything else? mrs. ray. no; i cannot think of anything. mr. liebeler. i want to thank you very much for coming down. mrs. ray. you are certainly welcome. testimony of mrs. igor vladimir voshinin the testimony of mrs. igor vladimir voshinin was taken at : a.m., on march , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. albert e. jenner, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. robert t. davis, assistant attorney general of texas, was present. mr. jenner. mrs. voshinin, will you stand and be sworn, please? do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in this deposition which we are about to take? mrs. voshinin. i do. i want to add only that i will--some of my statements or even the majority of it, will be to the best of my knowledge. mr. jenner. yes; we don't expect you to say any more than that. and, as a matter of fact, we would appreciate it that you would indicate as you testify that which you know of your own knowledge and that which came to you by rumor or that which came to you by way of statement made to you by somebody else as to what somebody else had said or done--which we call hearsay. mrs. voshinin. all right. and something else--some of the statements, they might have been made such a long time ago that they won't be entirely correct. the sense will be correct, but not the exact words. you realize that? mr. jenner. i do--but you're going to give us the best recollection you have? mrs. voshinin. exactly. mr. jenner. we don't expect any more. mrs. voshinin. all right. mr. jenner. we don't want any speculation on your part---- mrs. voshinin. i see. sure. mr. jenner. other than when we might ask you as to what your impression or impressions are and what they might not be. mrs. voshinin. yes, sir; i understand. mr. jenner. you are mrs. igor voshinin? mrs. voshinin. right. mr. jenner. and what was your maiden name? mrs. voshinin. semenov, s-e-m-e-n-o-v [spelling]. mr. jenner. and you are a resident of dallas? mrs. voshinin. dallas, tex.--right. mockingbird. mr. jenner. mockingbird. and you are the wife of igor voshinin? mrs. voshinin. right. mr. jenner. mrs. voshinin, did you receive from j. lee rankin, the general counsel of the commission appointed to investigate the assassination of president kennedy, a letter asking if you would appear---- mrs. voshinin. yes. mr. jenner. and in which was enclosed the senate joint resolution which authorized the creation of the presidential assassination commission---- mrs. voshinin. yes; i did. mr. jenner. that resolution being no. ; and also the president's, the hon. lyndon b. johnson's executive order creating the commission and fixing its rules and affording it its powers? mrs. voshinin. yes; i did. mr. jenner. together, also, with a third document which is the rules of procedure of the commission? mrs. voshinin. yes. mr. jenner. mrs. voshinin, you understand, then, from these documents that this is a presidential commission created in the manner i've indicated and that we are inquiring into the assassination of president john f. kennedy and all the circumstances surrounding it and seeking from you and others any information you have with regard to marina and lee oswald, as well as other persons who might have or did come in contact with them? mrs. voshinin. right. i do. mr. jenner. and we understand that you have some information in those areas and i would like to inquire of you about them. i am albert e. jenner, jr., a member of the legal staff of the commission, and mr. robert davis, to whom i introduced you, is a representative of the attorney general of the state of texas. are you a citizen of the united states? mrs. voshinin. yes, sir. mr. jenner. are you a naturalized citizen or a native--that is, born here? mrs. voshinin. naturalized; . mr. jenner. ; march ? mrs. voshinin. i believe so. mr. jenner. and you were naturalized in new york city, i believe? mrs. voshinin. in new jersey. mr. jenner. in new jersey. where were you born? mrs. voshinin. i was born in russia in labinsk. well, i will spell you both names, because when i was born it was called labinskaja--[spelling] l-a-b-i-n-s-k-a-j-a; and now, recently, it has been called labinsk--just abbreviate where the "k" is. mr. jenner. and orient me--where is that in russia? mrs. voshinin. that's in kuban region. this is the fore-caucasus. this is southern russia. mr. jenner. it's in the caucasus? mrs. voshinin. yes; they are called fore-caucasus--[spelling] f-o-r-e--caucasus. mr. jenner. you are a person of higher education, are you not? mrs. voshinin. well, i hold a degree in geology. that's all. mr. jenner. well, you've had an education beyond what we, here in america, call the equivalent of high school? mrs. voshinin. yes, sir. mr. jenner. did you attend a university? mrs. voshinin. yes, sir. mr. jenner. where? mrs. voshinin. i attended first university in yugoslavia for years. it was philosophy and i did not graduate due to war. then, i got my bachelor's degree in geology in brooklyn college in . mr. jenner. that's brooklyn, n.y.? mrs. voshinin. brooklyn, n.y. and master's degree at rutgers in . mr. jenner. rutgers university? mrs. voshinin. rutgers university--right; in geology. mr. jenner. where in yugoslavia was the university that you attended? mrs. voshinin. belgrade. mr. jenner. now, in short compass, as i understand from your husband who just deposed, you left russia or were taken by your parents from russia when you were year old? mrs. voshinin. something like that; yes. mr. jenner. and in what country were you when you first became conscious of your whereabouts? mrs. voshinin. i was in yugoslavia. mr. jenner. in what town? mrs. voshinin. panchevo, next to belgrade--[spelling] p-a-n-c-h-e-v-o. and before that my parents lived for a few years--i think for a couple of years in bulgaria--in varna pleven--[spelling] v-a-r-n-a p-l-e-v-e-n--and in sofia. but i'm not aware of dates. mr. jenner. that's just by reputation? mrs. voshinin. yes. mr. jenner. if you'll pardon my inquiry, what is your age? mrs. voshinin. forty-five; march , . mr. jenner. all right. where did you meet mr. voshinin? mrs. voshinin. in belgrade. mr. jenner. when? mrs. voshinin. first, i met him when i was about years old and then i didn't see him for a while; and then, i believe it was in , that i met him again. mr. jenner. where? mrs. voshinin. in panchevo. he was working there as a civil engineer--as a city engineer. mr. jenner. yes. i understand he's some years older than you? mrs. voshinin. that's right. eleven and a half--something like that. mr. jenner. and he was a civil engineer in---- mrs. voshinin. in the city of panchevo. mr. jenner. in ? mrs. voshinin. no, sir. mr. jenner. ? mrs. voshinin. well, ; yes. and through , i would say. because he was in the army during the war, you know, in the beginning---- mr. jenner. he was? mrs. voshinin. he was drafted to the army. mr. jenner. what army? mrs. voshinin. yugoslavian army. mr. jenner. and you were conscious of that fact, were you? mrs. voshinin. i don't--what do you mean, "conscious"? mr. jenner. well, you were aware of the fact he had been drafted and was in the yugoslavian army? mrs. voshinin. oh, yes; that was after we were married. we married in --january . mr. jenner. january , ? mrs. voshinin. yes. mr. jenner. and after your marriage---- mrs. voshinin. after our marriage, he was drafted, first, to the exercises--you know, the army training. mr. jenner. yes. mrs. voshinin. i believe it was in . you know, the war already started--remember? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. voshinin. in . mr. jenner. yes. the war started in september of . mrs. voshinin. ; yes; something like that. and then just after the germans attacked yugoslavia, my husband was called--got a telegram to appear. and then he returned back in --let's see, when was that? --no; in , i believe. yes; . i think that the germans attacked us in april --yugoslavia. mr. jenner. yes. invaded yugoslavia? mrs. voshinin. invaded yugoslavia; yes. mr. jenner. were you there then? mrs. voshinin. oh, yes; uh-huh. mr. jenner. and you moved from yugoslavia to where? mrs. voshinin. to germany. first, they took my husband and they sent an invitation to me, too. mr. jenner. to come to germany? mrs. voshinin. to come to germany. no; don't say "invitation", i'm sorry. this is just a joke. it was--well, they would just ask you to appear and when you appeared they would give you a questionnaire to fill in. after that you were deported--you are supposed to go here and there. mr. jenner. you were directed to go? mrs. voshinin. to germany--drafted with other young people. at that time they were doing that. mr. jenner. you were drafted into the work labor force? mrs. voshinin. into the work labor force; right. mr. jenner. and you went, then, to germany? mrs. voshinin. to austria; yes. mr. jenner. austria? mrs. voshinin. to austria--linz am donau--[spelling] l-i-n-z a-m d-o-n-a-u. this means linz on the danube--because there was another linz there in austria. mr. jenner. and you were there in austria until when? mrs. voshinin. until, i believe, march --until the russian troops started approaching linz am donau--because already they were on the outskirts. mr. jenner. already they were on the outskirts? mrs. voshinin. they were already approaching. yes. mr. jenner. you could hear the guns? mrs. voshinin. yes; i didn't hear them very well--but igor was at that time at the outskirts of the city and he heard them quite distinctly--the city of linz. and then we just didn't lose any time leaving linz. and we took a westerly direction--we didn't care which. mr. jenner. you wanted any direction away from the---- mrs. voshinin. exactly opposite direction away from russians. let's put it this way. and that was our direction throughout our life, i'm afraid. mr. jenner. your direction all your life has been away from the russians? mrs. voshinin. yes; away from the russians. mr. jenner. and you went to where? mrs. voshinin. well, we came as far as kempten, bavaria. and, of course, we were stopped there because we heard that that's as far as you can go without being extensively controlled by germans. because, you see, we did not have the permit to leave, or anything. we did not have any permit to leave town--and this we might have been shot for it. because, before we left town--several days before--germans made an announcement that whoever leaves will be put to death. but, if we stayed, we would be put to death by russians--so, what could we lose, you know? mr. jenner. and you arrived in bavaria--and were you liberated by anybody? mrs. voshinin. that's right--by lots of people. first, i believe it was french moroccan troops, they were the first who just zoomed through kempten; and then came american troops. mr. jenner. and you were completely liberated by them? mrs. voshinin. yes; that's right. it was good! mr. jenner. you were pleased to see the americans? mrs. voshinin. you bet! i was pleased to see the moroccans also, you know--any friend. mr. jenner. and did you come to america then? mrs. voshinin. that's right, sir. mr. jenner. and settled temporarily, at least initially, in new jersey? mrs. voshinin. in new york--well, let's see. no. first of all we settled in new york. we were taken to the diplomat hotel and put down there. then we lived at the diplomat hotel for--i'm not sure--gee, i don't remember. anyway, we worked in new york always, both of us, my husband and i, and we lived in bayonne, n.j., part of the time in new york, and then we lived in highland park, n.j.--which was across the bridge from new brunswick. new brunswick is were rutgers university is. i was going there, so we lived across the bridge from it. mr. jenner. did you eventually come to dallas? mrs. voshinin. it was in september--beginning of september . i believe it was around the st or th of september. mr. jenner. did you come to dallas directly, or did you stop in another texas city first? mrs. voshinin. well, we went on vacation before we directly settled in dallas and we were sort of looking around where would be right to stop. so, we went to houston but the climate was not quite pleasant there--and, you know, my husband had a very bad case of asthma in new york and he was advised to look for a hot and dry climate. so, we decided against that. and then we came to dallas and liked it very much. mr. jenner. do you like the climate here? mrs. voshinin. very much. yes, indeed. mr. jenner. your husband was very helpful in telling us about the russian community that you found here, or the community in which you moved, which he related largely to two parishes of the greek orthodox church. he said that when you and he came to dallas, either you didn't know anybody at all, or you knew some one person--i forget. mrs. voshinin. no; we didn't know anybody at all personally. but, you see, when we were in houston, we met there--of course, we went to the church first. that's usually your first move. and we met the priest there and---- mr. jenner. his name? mrs. voshinin. father alexander chernay. mr. jenner. spell it. mrs. voshinin. [spelling] c-h-e-r-n-a-y--or "i". i don't know how he spelled it. and then he introduced us to mrs. jitkoff's mother. mr. jenner. spell that, too. mrs. voshinin. let me think of her name. what was her name? she died. she was the mother of mrs. andre jitkoff--[spelling] j-i-t-k-o-f-f. locke lane--if you need the address. and, first of all, we met her and she told us the lay of the land and all the pros and cons of texas life. and, finally--she spoke very convincingly--she liked texas very much--and we decided to stay here. and she directed us to mr. george bouhe in dallas. and then we came and met george. mr. jenner. you didn't know bouhe prior to this time? mrs. voshinin. no, sir; no, sir. mr. jenner. who is george bouhe? mrs. voshinin. well, he's an accountant, i believe, and i don't know exactly for whom he worked at that time--but i know that he worked for a long time for degolyer and macnaughton. and he was sort of a manager of the russian parish there--father alexander's parish. mr. jenner. what parish is that? mrs. voshinin. that was the st. nicholas parish. mr. jenner. tell us about this community of people. mrs. voshinin. well, there were very few people and who we met there were clarks--one of the first--gali and max clark--that's [spelling] g-a-l-i. mr. jenner. in what town do they live? mrs. voshinin. they live at selkirk--[spelling] s-e-l-k-i-r-k--in fort worth. mr. jenner. max clark is an attorney, is he not? mrs. voshinin. that's right; uh-huh. mr. jenner. and mrs. clark is---- mrs. voshinin. she has also an education in the law. mr. jenner. an education in law? mrs. voshinin. yes; from europe. mr. jenner. is she a naturalized citizen? mrs. voshinin. i believe so, i don't know. she is married to max--uh--she probably--that's the way she got to this country. she's not a born american. mr. jenner. what i was getting at is what is her nativity? do you know? mrs. voshinin. well, she said that her mother is of british descent--hughes. and her father was russian--shcherbatov. it's a very well-known historical name. mr. jenner. spell that, please. mrs. voshinin. [spelling] s-h-c-h-e-r-b-a-t-o-v. then we met a family by name popoff--[spelling] p-o-p-o-f-f--nicholas popoff. mr. jenner. does he live here? mrs. voshinin. he lives here; yes. he's a mechanical engineer. i'm not sure where he works. mr. jenner. was he a native of russia? mrs. voshinin. yes; i think so. and i believe that's--yes, there were some people of ukrainian background. i don't remember their names, though. but, anyway, it was a very small parish. and there were also two priests--young priests--one monk, father hilary madison, and another one, father dimitri royster. mr. jenner. that's [spelling] r-o-y-s-t-e-r? mrs. voshinin. right. and that is where our troubles with george bouhe started. i mean, george bouhe wanted to make it a russian-speaking parish. and father royster and father hilary were believing that it would be much better if it were an english-speaking parish because it would be a church of the future. and, of course, i know, according to my brother's children, that they always tend to go to english-speaking services, because they say that they understand much better english. they do not understand church slavonic at all. you know, that's an obsolete language, slightly different from russian and different from modern russian language. so, of course, we agreed with those two young priests more than with george. mr. jenner. uh-huh. mrs. voshinin. and here the trouble started. and we separated finally and father dimitri decided to start a new church--practically from scratch. there were three voshinins in his church, i believe four chichillas--[spelling] c-h-i-c-h-i-l-l-a-s--and i think that was about the whole parish. and, after that, we did not have much contact with george. in fact, we resented each other extensively. but, with the years, the resentment sort of died out and now we are just very polite but not very friendly. mr. jenner. but you do have social intercourse with george? mrs. voshinin. bouhe? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. voshinin. no, sir; i meet him at a party some place--at other people's parties once in a while, but---- mr. jenner. are you employed? mrs. voshinin. self-employed. mr. jenner. self-employed? and, when you first came here, were you employed by anybody? mrs. voshinin. yes; i was employed by george de mohrenschildt for half a day and for half a day i worked for henry rogatz--both geologists. i stayed with george, i believe, just or weeks maximum amount, as far as i can remember--no longer than a month. mr. jenner. and this was in ---- mrs. voshinin. . i believe in november. either end of october or november in . and then i started working for henry rogatz, for whom i worked until june . mr. jenner. how did you come to be sent to, or become acquainted with, george de mohrenschildt? mrs. voshinin. george bouhe told me about him and he arranged it. and he asked me to call george on the telephone. and i came there and george right away offered me to be his secretary there and also to help him with his projects--drilling projects, whatever he had there. mr. jenner. drilling projects? mrs. voshinin. yes; there was one drilling project going on and he wanted me to participate in the geology. mr. jenner. had you known this man theretofore? mrs. voshinin. no, sir; i had not. mr. jenner. then, after about weeks of working half days for mr. de mohrenschildt, you began full time for mr. rogatz? mrs. voshinin. for mr. rogatz--right. mr. jenner. also, in your profession of geology? mrs. voshinin. yes; uh-huh. mr. jenner. what did you learn of de mohrenschildt, de mohrenschildt's present wife, and de mohrenschildt's prior history? mrs. voshinin. i don't know very much about de mohrenschildt's prior history--only what he, himself, told me. i mean, i can just repeat his own words. mr. jenner. all right. you start and tell us what he told you---- mrs. voshinin. yes. mr. jenner. and then go from that to what you know of your own knowledge. mrs. voshinin. sir, i'm afraid i don't know anything of my own knowledge. mr. jenner. all right. tell us all he told you. mrs. voshinin. he told me that he had some former wives--that he had a wife, dorothy, and a daughter, alex, from this wife dorothy. mr. jenner. and that daughter's name was alex? mrs. voshinin. alex. right. and then that he had a second wife--i believe he said her name was washington, or something like that. and i also believe that he said she was a songstress or something like that. i'm not too sure, somehow. he never talked about that. mr. jenner. an entertainer of some kind? mrs. voshinin. entertainer of some kind--right. and he never talked about her and i understand it was a very short marriage. and then it was dee dee sharples whom, just when i started working with george, the trouble had started between dee dee and george. so, i never met her. i talked to her over the phone a couple of times but i never met her myself. and then he separated from dee dee and he found--he met jeanne [pronounced zhon]. i believe that he mentioned to me that he met jeanne before that time, though, i'm not certain when and how. no--i am certain how, because he said he met her at the swimming pool at the stoneleigh hotel. she was living in that hotel. and then they married, i believe, in , after those trips to yugoslavia--two trips. i'm not sure whether he went two or once to yugoslavia. mr. jenner. were you living here in dallas when he made his trip or trips to yugoslavia? mrs. voshinin. yes, uh-huh. we lived all the time in dallas--all those years. mr. jenner. what do you know about his trip to yugoslavia--and start from the beginning, as you recall it? mrs. voshinin. only what he told me about it. i remember very well that he was getting an offer from somebody in washington, d.c., to go to yugoslavia. and, somehow, george didn't like very much this idea, because he told me he will go to yugoslavia if he will have to go--something to that extent. i understood that if he goes very well in money that, you know, his financial status requires, he will go to yugoslavia. but, at that time, he was preferring to work in texas and drill wells rather than his foreign work--which he did later after he returned from yugoslavia. you see, there actually are two periods in george's life. mr. jenner. all right. tell us about it. mrs. voshinin. before he went to yugoslavia and after he went to yugoslavia. because--of course, i might be quite wrong about it. this is my own impression of the whole thing. mr. jenner. yes; well, that's what we want. now, you were living here in dallas when he went to---- mrs. voshinin. before he went. mr. jenner. at the time he went to yugoslavia? mrs. voshinin. yes; uh-huh. mr. jenner. and you had these conversations with him about going to yugoslavia before he left? mrs. voshinin. yes; right. mr. jenner. and you know he went? mrs. voshinin. and i know he went; right. mr. jenner. you know, by reputation, that he went to yugoslavia? mrs. voshinin. what reputation? mr. jenner. well, by what was said. it was said that he went to yugoslavia. you do know---- mrs. voshinin. yes; but then he sent us postcards from yugoslavia. mr. jenner. all right. mrs. voshinin. so, we knew for sure that he was there. and then he brought back--that i know for sure that he went to yugoslavia--and he brought the photo pictures unmistakably yugoslavian that he brought back--photographs, you know, that were yugoslavian. some of them i knew--some of the places. mr. jenner. you knew some of the places in yugoslavia? mrs. voshinin. yes. mr. jenner. he was over there about how long? mrs. voshinin. i thought he was there about a year--something like that. mr. jenner. and this was when? mrs. voshinin. i think it was in--now, that i cannot place exactly. i think in --in and ; or and beginning of . i'm not too sure. but anyway, what i remember that in --it was before , because in we went to fifth petroleum congress in new york city and there we met george and his old friends from yugoslavia. so, that would have been the year before that that he went. there was a delegation of yugoslavian geologists who knew him--and he introduced us. mr. jenner. and you gathered, from those introductions and talking, that they were people in the yugoslavian delegation to the fifth petroleum congress who knew george? mrs. voshinin. knew george very well; yes. mr. jenner. and did they speak of his having been there, or what was said that led you to affirm that he had been in yugoslavia? mrs. voshinin. well, for some reason, somehow we could not get together with those people. we just--you know, it's not very easy sometimes to talk to the people from behind the iron curtain. and i had definite feeling that they were little bit afraid to talk to us--for some reason. mr. jenner. because of your long stay in yugoslavia, both you and your husband could have spoken with them? you are familiar with---- mrs. voshinin. oh, they talked our own language. certainly. and we just--i just met the whole group once, and then one fellow was there who was brought up also in banat region--[spelling] b-a-n-a-t--which is near the town of panchevo, where i grew up. and he was very eager to talk. and i had the impression that he was definitely afraid. mr. jenner. afraid to talk to you? mrs. voshinin. you know what he did? for some reason he would say--"would you like to get out into the corridor and meet me there and let's talk?" and we would say a few words and they would come and he would immediately cease talking, you know. and then again, he would say it--and it was always in a crowd that he would like so to talk. i don't know. that was just funny behavior--really. mr. jenner. and this fifth petroleum conference was when? mrs. voshinin. in --end of may and beginning of june, i believe. mr. jenner. were you going to tell us about the so-called second period of george de mohrenschildt's career? mrs. voshinin. well, i would call it the second period because, first of all, i must tell you that in between, somewhere in the middle of the second period, we were not on speaking terms with george and jeanne for over a year. so, i cannot tell anything about that period. mr. jenner. why? mrs. voshinin. that was--well, from some cracks they made. i mean--no--well, okay. it was a silly joke, i believe. but jeanne wanted to send a greetings telegram to mr. khrushchev, you know. now, i don't know whether i made it clear to the gentlemen from the fbi. so, i would rather say this now. mr. jenner. all right. mrs. voshinin. but she never sent this telegram. george told me she never did send it. but, anyway, we were awfully angry at that--really angry. and it was just--all that constantly, you know, and their talking in left direction---- mr. jenner. their talking what? mrs. voshinin. in left direction, i mean. they were liberals, you know, and once in a while they were just unpleasant. mr. jenner. was george de mohrenschildt a liberal also, or was his wife the liberal? mrs. voshinin. wife was a liberal, definite; but george would talk--could talk either way. george--well, if he would, for example, think that he could knock you off your feet by saying something pro-fascistic, he would do that. mr. jenner. saying something what? mrs. voshinin. pro-fascistic, you know--pro-nazi. mr. jenner. pro-nazi? mrs. voshinin. yes; he would do that by all means. if he knew that you are a middle-of-the-roader, he would praise communists, you know. communists--not communism. in fact, i never heard george--not necessarily communism itself. in fact, i never heard george praising the communists' doctrine even, you know, talking about it in several ways. mr. jenner. he was a provocative personality, was he? mrs. voshinin. definitely. mr. jenner. he sought to provoke argument? mrs. voshinin. exactly. and to say exactly the opposite. something that you will disagree, and start arguing. exactly. mr. jenner. he would take either side? mrs. voshinin. either side. mr. jenner. always opposite to the other person? mrs. voshinin. right. mr. jenner. i see. mrs. voshinin. and yet, somehow, you know, he had that definite sympathy for the--i would say, for the leftist regime; somehow--not in particular. mr. davis. i wonder if i might ask a question? mr. jenner. sure. mr. davis. did you all ever meet people named the kelvin fords? mrs. voshinin. kelvin or declan ford? i met declan ford. mr. davis. i mean declan. excuse me. mrs. voshinin. declan. yes. mr. davis. do you know them? mrs. voshinin. i don't know them very well. i knew her very well when she was married to her first husband--but not too close with her after she married declan. i just met them several times. mr. davis. did you attend the christmas party that they had? mrs. voshinin. no, sir; i did not--oh, wait a minute. that was not christmas party. that was new year's party. mr. davis. new year's party? mrs. voshinin. this year's new year's party; yes. we attended that. yes; uh-huh. mr. davis. did you meet lee oswald there? mrs. voshinin. no, sir. that was after the assassination of the president that we attended the new year's party. mr. davis. well, the one the year before? mrs. voshinin. oh, no. we went elsewhere. mr. jenner. tell me about george de mohrenschildt's personality--other than in this area of argumentation and provocation. mrs. voshinin. well, i thought that he was a neurotic person. he had some sort of headaches and sometimes he would flare into a rage absolutely for no reason at all practically. and i knew that he complained to me several times that he could not concentrate very well. and once he mentioned something about seeing a psychiatrist or something. he had some difficulty on the nervous background. mr. jenner. was he unconventional? mrs. voshinin. uh--what does that mean exactly? mr. jenner. he didn't dress normally---- mrs. voshinin. that's true; yes. mr. jenner. he would come to church in shorts?---- mrs. voshinin. exactly. mr. jenner. he would walk into your home without invitation? mrs. voshinin. right. he was that way. mr. davis. sort of a beatnik? mrs. voshinin. well, no; not beatnik--but he was definitely nonconformist. he would just love to do exactly what people would, you know, object to. mr. jenner. he was not sensitive to the feelings of others? mrs. voshinin. not at all. i believe that sometimes he definitely enjoyed in teasing people in his own way. he used to--in any way. for example, if people are not politically inclined, he would shock them with some statement about a free marriage, you know. if they are politically inclined, it would depend on who they are. the conservative, he would shock with communism, you know; the jewish people, he would shock by praising nazism, you know. he was that type of person, you know, really, they were like children in that respect--honestly. and what the trouble is with george and jeanne, both of them, i think, their main trouble is their extreme bitterness--extreme bitterness, i believe which goes back to their former life. mr. jenner. bitterness? mrs. voshinin. toward life, toward people, toward--you know, they thought, for example, that almost everybody's a bigot. for example, igor and i were bigots because we went to church. you know, that sort of thing. and so and so on. mr. jenner. they were unreligious people? mrs. voshinin. yes, sir; they were actually fighting atheists. mr. jenner. they were aggressive atheists? mrs. voshinin. aggressive, definitely. and they would just state it in, sometimes, quite rude form. one definitely would object against the form, mainly--because, after all, everybody should have his own belief. there is nothing criminal to be an atheist either, but the form in which they did it, you know, the impoliteness. mr. davis. did you ever notice that they tended to want to help people? mrs. voshinin. to help people? mr. davis. were they the type persons that were always trying to help someone that needed help? mrs. voshinin. no; not always; uh-uh. but, i think that by nature, they are very, very good natured--definitely. they're for the underdog, you know--always. and--well, compared to george bouhe, whose whole life is dedicated to helping people whether people wanted it or not, you know--they would be nonhelpful. you know, they would not bother so much about people as george bouhe did. mr. jenner. they weren't aggressive about it as george bouhe was? mrs. voshinin. right. but they were very--are very good natured. mr. jenner. and generous people? mrs. voshinin. not george--no. jeanne, yes; but not george. for example, their relation to oswald. they definitely pitied him very, very much. they were very sorry for him. and they tried to help him in any way they could. mr. jenner. now, that you have mentioned the oswalds, did you ever meet either one of the oswalds? mrs. voshinin. no, sir; uh-uh. mr. jenner. did you hear about the oswalds? mrs. voshinin. yes. mr. jenner. in what connection did you first hear or read or learn about their existence? fix the time, first. mrs. voshinin. my husband read it in the newspaper. mr. jenner. that would be in june of ? mrs. voshinin. i really can't say. mr. jenner. they arrived here in---- mrs. voshinin. they arrived here and there was an article in the newspaper. mr. jenner. yes. they arrived in new york on the th day of june ? mrs. voshinin. i didn't know about---- mr. jenner. well, i'm just telling you that that's so. mrs. voshinin. uh-huh. thank you. mr. jenner. and then your husband read an item in the local paper--about what? mrs. voshinin. about them arriving here and from where did they come. they came from russia. you know that. they arrived here and---- mr. jenner. was anything said in this article that arrested your attention as to the circumstance of their coming, or his circumstance or happenings in russia? mrs. voshinin. i don't remember very well whatever was there in the article. i didn't read it myself. but what i heard of them was from my friends--first, from the clarks. and they told me some circumstances. they told me that he was living in minsk, i believe. but they didn't tell me anything about his political nature. they just said that she is a very nice person, very young, and he is boorish. mr. jenner. boorish? mrs. voshinin. boorish. has bad manners and arrogant. i don't know the right english word for that. arrogant, maybe. and, so, we decided that we don't want to associate with him at that time. and the second time i heard from them--no, between that time--between clarks and de mohrenschildts--i heard from them some other people in the st. nicholas church. they mentioned them. mr. jenner. you said, i heard from those people about oswalds--about two oswalds. right? mrs. voshinin. yes; and they were usually positive about her and somehow uneasy about him. they liked her. and the only thing that i heard--the only people that i heard about the political inclinations of oswalds were de mohrenschildts. mr. jenner. in conversations with the de mohrenschildts?---- mrs. voshinin. uh-huh. mr. jenner. they related to you their views as to oswald's political inclinations? mrs. voshinin. yes. mr. jenner. what did they say and who said it--which of them? mrs. voshinin. first of all, we did not discuss it. it was rather remarks on george's side--because we asked george definitely and jeanne not to bring him to our house and not to invite us when the oswalds are there because we had certain reasons--not evidence--but reasons to believe that he might be a soviet agent. might be, you know. but not sure at all whether he would be or not. mr. jenner. since there was in your mind a possibility, you didn't want to have anything to do with them? mrs. voshinin. we wanted to stay away from them. yes. and the de mohrenschildts argued with us about that. george would say always that he was a very mild person, that he wouldn't hurt a fly. and, then, later--that was at the beginning--that was at the very beginning--and then later, somehow, i believe george started seeing through oswald a little bit. that's my own opinion--impression. mr. jenner. well, you go ahead and talk. mrs. voshinin. because he told me on several occasions that, "you know, i believe that he's just an idealistical marxist." and he said, "you know, he's one of those pure marxists." you know, meaning a marxist in theory but not in practice. and finally i remember a pretty good conversation--george mentioned the possibility of oswald being actually a communist. because, he said, you know natalie, i believed that he remained what he was." and i remember definitely that conversation because jeanne took george right away and she was protesting vigorously against that statement. and she said that she does not believe that he is a communist because he was very disappointed with mr. khrushchev and russia--and then, of course, for obvious reasons, that doesn't mean that he is not a communist if he is disappointed with khrushchev and russia, you know. i remember that argument--but more than that, i just can't say, because i just don't remember that far away the conversations. but we got, again, you know--the picture was sort of shaping up about oswald. mr. jenner. you tell us in your own words what picture was shaping up about oswald. what did you mean by that? mrs. voshinin. by that, that we wanted to stay away from him, definitely for a period. you know, that he was just--that he just was a dangerous person. for this reason, first of all, soviets seldom let anybody in unless they have certain plans for that person--especially a person of non-russian descent. yet they let him live there. right? mr. jenner. they let him in in the first place? mrs. voshinin. in the first place. so, they must have had some plans for him. he stayed there for a length of time. right? i believe, years. mr. jenner. yes. he went there in september of and left in--oh--the tail end of may or the first part of june . mrs. voshinin. ? so, it's three years. right? mr. jenner. uh-huh. mrs. voshinin. then, for these years--this is all our own theory, we have no---- mr. jenner. yes; i know. mrs. voshinin. you understand? for these years, he could have got his training? right? whatever it is. thirdly, his exit from russia was so easy. with wife and children--with child, wife, and with suitcases--no problem there. which is absolutely unnatural. usually, american boys have such trouble getting their families out of russia. you probably remember the cases. and, thirdly, we believed that--we were expecting, rather, to hear from oswald publicly some anti-communist declaration, some, you know, reports, lectures, or a couple of articles in the newspaper, you know, we expected from him to behave like a person who got disappointed in communism, came here sincerely--like people we know. for example, eugene lyons or captain khokhlov, you know. mr. jenner. spell that. mrs. voshinin. let me write it (writes out name). so, his behavior after he came here, from what we heard about his behavior, was unnatural. he was sulky instead of being very happy that he is back. right? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. voshinin. according to george, he was a great--he had great intellectual power; he was very clever person--definitely intellectually inclined and very well-read person; and that he was--he couldn't find a job. now, wouldn't that be natural for an intellectual person to go get his living lecturing against communism? mr. jenner. were you harkening back to your own history---- mrs. voshinin. yes. i might have done it if i hadn't had my own profession. mr. jenner. that you were able to obtain positions? mrs. voshinin. everybody would be able to to obtain a position. khokhlov, he was in washington, d.c., even, i believe. i don't remember exactly what he was. but, anyway, all those people not only expressed their beliefs and shared their beliefs publicly, you know, with other people---- mr. jenner. yes. mrs. voshinin. but--the other point was that it would really help oswald materially, don't you think so, in a material way? he would earn some money. other people were earning their living by lecturing on anti-communistic talk. so, why did he have to sit jobless or to go to the factory--or whatever he did, i don't know exactly, whatever work he worked--instead of going and lecturing, which he never did. right? mr. jenner. right. mrs. voshinin. from what we heard of him he never expressed himself for being anti-communist. we remember that. we never heard a word of this. mr. jenner. did it ever occur to you that his knowledge and his learning was entirely superficial and he didn't have the capacity to lecture? mrs. voshinin. not never. because george was so emphatic about his mental powers, about his erudition, education, you know, that it really never occurred to me. i thought that he was an intellectual, very well read. because george said that many times. he said, "he's a very interesting person, he's very well read, a very intelligent person." mr. jenner. did you ever argue this with de mohrenschildt--say, "well, why doesn't he lecture? i don't understand this?" mrs. voshinin. i remember i did ask that--and i don't remember the exact answer. whatever it was, i don't remember. but, as far as i remember, they said something that maybe from the gratitude to russia, or something like that, he doesn't want to do that, and said they'd leave that up to him. mr. davis. did george de mohrenschildt ever mention that oswald spoke fluent russian? mrs. voshinin. yes; he did. uh-huh. he said that oswald spoke very good russian. mr. davis. did he ever discuss where he learned to speak russian so fluently? mrs. voshinin. no; in fact, he did not discuss or quote--i don't remember him discussing extensively oswald's background or quoting what oswald said about what. i tried to remember it yesterday very hard, you know, but just couldn't. i just don't remember. mr. davis. i wonder if i might ask an opinion of you here? if he were working, say, in a factory or in normal pursuits in russia for, say, years, would it be possible to become that fluent in russian--just from the fact of working--just from the fact of working there? mrs. voshinin. i think so. yes; i think so--because, after all, you rub shoulders with russian workers, you know, so you're in it all the time. it's good that you ask the question, because there was one more suspicious thing about oswald. according to hearsay, his wife said that oswald had a very nice apartment in russia--modern apartment. and they just don't give such apartments to anybody. you know, they usually have to earn that to get it. mr. davis. did she tell this to you? mrs. voshinin. no, sir; i never met her. but i heard from other people--i think, mrs. de mohrenschildt said that, i believe. mr. davis. that they had a very nice apartment? mrs. voshinin. yes; that they had a very modern, nice apartment in russia. mr. jenner. what would a nice apartment in russia be? just one room? mrs. voshinin. no. mr. jenner. what concept did you have in your mind when mrs. de mohrenschildt said to you, "they had a very nice apartment in russia?" what did you think they had? mrs. voshinin. i didn't think of apartment. i immediately thought of why must they have it. i thought maybe he had a roomette with a bath and kitchen. something like that, you know. certainly not nice according to our standards here. that's for sure. but there was another little thing. marina supposedly mentioned that russians did not like him; that his workers actually hated him. and that was another hint to me--that why did they hate him? usually, russians are very cosmopolitan people, you know. they like foreigners. now, why would they hate a guy? and i come to conclusion that maybe he reported on them--or something like that. you know, little by little--but do you understand, sir, that everything i say, taken separately, doesn't mean anything, probably. but you just put it together and it sort of tells something to us, you know. mr. jenner. you go right ahead. what you put together and what impresses you, little by little by little, is helpful to me in bringing out the bases upon which you had these views and opinions. so, don't be embarrassed about it or hesitant. i want you to say, in giving these impressions, why, what you base them on--and i understand that you are rationalizing. mrs. voshinin. yeah; that's right. mr. jenner. excuse me. did you want to ask a question, mr. davis? mr. davis. do you recall if george de mohrenschildt ever mentioned to you the fact that the oswalds had been in moscow for any period of time? mrs. voshinin. no; he never did. mr. davis. you don't recall anything about them being in moscow? mrs. voshinin. i don't remember anyone mentioning them being in moscow. wasn't this in some magazine or newspaper--or maybe his mother mentioned it--his being in moscow? didn't she? i think his mother mentioned this in connection with his seeing some cia man with the american embassy in moscow. i believe i did read something somewhere. some of her gossip, you know. mr. jenner. some of her gossip? mrs. voshinin. yeah. mr. jenner. i would like to have you, when you're giving us these impressions, however, give us your impressions as you had them as of the time---- mrs. voshinin. yeah. mr. jenner. and not influenced by what you have learned and read since november , . mrs. voshinin. yeah; uh-huh. mr. jenner. and that's what you are doing, is it not? mrs. voshinin. right. mr. jenner. fine. we interrupted you. you were relating your rationalization as to your fear or aversion to this person known as lee oswald, who had been in russia and had come to america with his wife and child---- mrs. voshinin. yeah. mr. jenner. and why, in your mind at this time about which you speak, you were fearful that despite mr. de mohrenschildt's attempted reassurances to you that he, oswald, wasn't acting like a person who was free of russia, so to speak, and had an aversion to russia, who you expected to be doing some things, here, such as lecturing and what-not, and these were things he wasn't doing--from which you concluded you had some misgivings, at least. mrs. voshinin. yes. mr. jenner. all right. and have you recounted all of that now? mrs. voshinin. yes. mr. jenner. you have completed your rationalizing statement in that connection? mrs. voshinin. yes; right. mr. jenner. all right. mrs. voshinin, was there a period of time or a series of occasions that troubled you and your husband with respect to the activities of mr. de mohrenschildt and also his present wife with respect to trips to houston, tex.? mrs. voshinin. it didn't trouble us actually, because we knew very little of his business and we just were not very much interested in his business affairs--but we just noticed that he was traveling to texas. mr. jenner. to houston? mrs. voshinin. i mean to houston. right. mr. jenner. were these regular? mrs. voshinin. quite regular. and usually it would coincide, somehow, with his next assignment. you see, you asked me to think at that time, prior to november , . at that time, it did not bother us at all. we just didn't give much thought to that. mr. jenner. but you noticed it? mrs. voshinin. we noticed it definitely. yes. because he was always expecting some telephone calls from houston. if they would be at our house, for example, she would tell me that he give our telephone number, you know, to call him--and it would be from houston. but he also was traveling so extensively that it was absolutely impossible to remember everywhere where he went. i know that he went a lot to new york on business; he went a lot to philadelphia on his private business--private life. of course, that would include dee dee sharples--concerning his third wife and children. they had disagreement there. mr. jenner. did you and your husband have occasion to discuss these houston trips recently? mrs. voshinin. yes; recently. and we discussed also those houston trips before november --because our friends, the jitkoffs, they mentioned to us that they don't like george at all and they didn't want us to bring him to their house. and i asked why, and she didn't want to tell exactly why, but she said something about some people--some character whom he is visiting in houston. mr. jenner. character? mrs. voshinin. yes. mr. jenner. what did you gather from that? did she use the word "character"? mrs. voshinin. yes; _teep_ [phonetic] is "type" in russia. that means "character" in english. you know, it means type of a person. mr. jenner. yes; i appreciate what you mean by character--but what kind of a person? mrs. voshinin. well, unsavory character. mr. jenner. unsavory character? mrs. voshinin. i understood politically unsavory. mr. jenner. politically unsavory? mrs. voshinin. right. that's what i understood. and also mr. and mrs. jitkoff, on several occasions, expressed surprise that we became friendly with de mohrenschildts again--and i assumed that it was on the basis of his visiting this particular person in houston. mr. jenner. did they name the person? mrs. voshinin. i don't remember their naming the person; no. but she said something--i just don't remember, really, what she said. but we thought that the jitkoffs don't know george de mohrenschildt too well, you know, and that's why they might be little bit exaggerating, you know, the bad character of george. because, if you know him well, you can see why he thinks. [laughing] mr. jenner. did it occur to you or your husband, now that you reflect on the matter, that the trips to houston could possibly have had some connection with oswald? mrs. voshinin. never. no. in fact, we didn't think of oswald very much. mr. jenner. i am talking about your rationalizing last night or---- mrs. voshinin. no. it never did. no. i was quite certain that it had something to do with his haitian assignment. it was rather business trips. mr. jenner. but you do know that you were not aware of what the character of his business was in houston, if he had any? mrs. voshinin. no; i don't know. mr. jenner. you just assumed he had business in houston? mrs. voshinin. yes. that's right. mr. jenner. you didn't know? mrs. voshinin. i didn't know. (off-the-record discussion follows.) mr. jenner. now, we have inquired of mr. voshinin about the famous walking trip of the de mohrenschildts from the border of mexico and the united states to panama. mrs. voshinin. yes; uh-huh. mr. jenner. did he make such a trip? mrs. voshinin. he says he did--and he brought some films and some photo pictures--photographs and moving films, and on the moving film there was that volcano eruption, you know--so i assume that he did make the trip. mr. jenner. did you receive any cards from them as they wended their way down? mrs. voshinin. no; we were not on speaking terms with them. mr. jenner. oh, this is the period when you were not friendly? mrs. voshinin. no. mr. jenner. and afterward, when they got back---- mrs. voshinin. we met them at ballens. mr. jenner. and some of the friendship was restored? mrs. voshinin. right. that's right. mr. jenner. and you did see moving pictures of---- mrs. voshinin. yes; of their jungle life. mr. jenner. jungle life, and in those moving pictures, were there pictures of mrs. de mohrenschildt included? mrs. voshinin. yes; but, of course, it was either he or she--because one of them was taking pictures. mr. jenner. yes. but you saw representations in the movie film of him---- mrs. voshinin. yes. mr. jenner. when she was taking the picture or you assumed she was; and you saw also her---- mrs. voshinin. right. mr. jenner. in the moving film when he was taking, or you assumed? mrs. voshinin. right; uh-huh. mr. jenner. now, you mentioned a volcano erupting. that drew your attention to a particular incident, did it? mrs. voshinin. no; it did not. it only--you know what i was actually wondering, for no reason at all, asking myself whether those pictures could have been taken elsewhere but in mexico, you know. but, then, when i saw the volcano eruption, it sort of proved it, you know. because i just couldn't imagine that people would walk all that distance. mr. jenner. the volcano eruption--did that sequence of frames in the movie strip, did it include pictures of mrs. de mohrenschildt? mrs. voshinin. yes; she was standing right at the flowing lava. it was a very beautiful picture. mr. jenner. and did the movie film also show him in that area? mrs. voshinin. no; uh-uh. mr. jenner. did they say where the volcano was? mrs. voshinin. i am not sure they said where it was. mr. jenner. yucatan? mrs. voshinin. i don't think it was yucatan. no. mr. jenner. what is your best recollection? mrs. voshinin. somewhere near parikutin, i believe. somewhere there. mr. jenner. spell that, please. mrs. voshinin. [spelling] p-a-r-i-k-u-t-i-n--because this is one of the recently erupted volcanoes in mexico--parikutin. mr. jenner. all right. when was this event--the walking trip from the border to panama? mrs. voshinin. i don't know. chronologically, you mean, when was this? mr. jenner. well, give me the time, first, the year--as you best recall now. mrs. voshinin. i really cannot do that. because it was in that khrushchev came to this country, right? mr. jenner. yes. i believe so. mrs. voshinin. so, before that, we broke our relationship, right? and we restored it after the trip. mr. jenner. all right. now, the trip came after mr. khrushchev had visited this country? mrs. voshinin. visited this country. and it was , i would say. they returned probably in . mr. jenner. do you recall the incident of the attempted and ill-fated invasion of cuba? mrs. voshinin. you mean, that president kennedy is---- mr. davis. bay of pigs. mr. jenner. yes; the bay of pigs. mrs. voshinin. yes; i do remember that. mr. jenner. now, when was this walking trip with respect to that event--at the same time, a little bit before, a little after? mrs. voshinin. you know, i couldn't say absolutely. i'm very bad on dates--and i don't remember even the date of the bay of pigs. when was that? mr. jenner. now, you've put me in a bad spot. mr. davis. well, it was in--shortly after . it would be about march of . mrs. voshinin. right. mr. jenner. the president was elected in november . mr. davis. it was very shortly after that. mr. jenner. well, the invasion of the bay of pigs occurred after the president's election, and my recollection is that it was in december, december of , or january of . mr. davis. i think it was probably about that time--or in february. mr. jenner. it was sometime very shortly after he took office. during the first or months of . it wasn't long after he had been inaugurated and he was inaugurated january , i think it was, . mr. davis. the th is inauguration. mr. jenner. twentieth of january? mr. davis. yes. i think it was in late february or early march. mr. jenner. well, that's reasonably accurate. mrs. voshinin. uh-huh. maybe they were in haiti at that time. i don't know really. really, i'm afraid to say. mr. jenner. they might have been in haiti? mrs. voshinin. in haiti. because i know that they told us that on the way back, they stopped for about a month in haiti to get their breath--to rest a little. mr. jenner. on the way back from the mexican walking trip? mrs. voshinin. from the mexican walking trip; yes. they walked through panama, from there they took airplane to haiti and stayed there a month--and then came back. mr. jenner. did they ever say anything or did you ever have the impression that they had visited cuba? mrs. voshinin. no. no. but something--i think he did not visit cuba. i believe he mentioned that his plane had to stop in cuba, something like that, on the airport. but i'm not sure about that at all. i believe he said. mr. jenner. was there a time when he visited ghana? mrs. voshinin. there was; yes. mr. jenner. well, tell us about that. mrs. voshinin. well, that was after he came back from yugoslavia. i don't remember before or after he went second time to yugoslavia. i think it was before he went second time to yugoslavia. and i am pretty sure that he was in ghana because he brought a newspaper--ghana newspaper--and there was a picture, small picture. i didn't read the article, but i noticed there a line which said, "a well-known philatelist, george de mohrenschildt"--which caught my eye. so, i thought, my god! that's one of george's antics again! [laughter.] mr. davis. was he a stamp collector? mrs. voshinin. no. mr. davis. and this article said he was? mrs. voshinin. that's what the article said; yes. but i just glanced through it, i mean. that's what caught my eye. that's all. and then he also brought some photographs from ghana--so i'm pretty sure he was there. mr. jenner. you saw some photographs from ghana? mrs. voshinin. yes; from ghana. mr. jenner. and you saw this newspaper? mrs. voshinin. yes; and i saw the newspaper--and i believe this newspaper was in english. the french newspaper was from haiti--right. and the english one was from ghana; yes. mr. jenner. it was a ghana newspaper published in english? mrs. voshinin. yes; in english language--written in english language. and that's what it said there. mr. jenner. did you ever talk to him about that? mrs. voshinin. i believe so. i believe i asked him, and he said that he went there on account of some swedish, i believe, businessmen to look for some oil leases, and he had to sort of conceal his profession, you know--that this is a competitive business and you don't advertise you are geologists looking for oil, you know. but then, again, we, both of us, refrained from asking any questions of george's trip because george repeatedly hinted that he was doing some services for the state department, you know. mr. jenner. of the united states? mrs. voshinin. of the united states; yes. and under those circumstances, you just don't feel like asking him any questions, you know. and maybe i assumed that, but he definitely hinted--made certain hints. he never said that he is an employee, though, you know. for example, about his trip to yugoslavia, he would say, "i made it with the knowledge of the state department." you know. and then when he came back, he told us how he submitted a written report there. and then on few other foreign trips, he also said that--sort of, you know, hinted that that was what. mr. jenner. what foreign trip? mrs. voshinin. he was traveling to europe several times, i forget which. mr. jenner. yugoslavia, ghana? mrs. voshinin. well, let me have--i have it on piece of paper. mr. jenner. oh, you have? mrs. voshinin. [referring to paper which she took from her bag.] prior to , he told me, he was in cuba. he was drilling there. that was before--long before castro. right? mr. jenner. uh-huh. mrs. voshinin. he was drilling some well--made some very good oil discovery in cuba. then he worked in mexico. that's what he said. prior to sometime. then he went to yugoslavia from to , i believe. that's what it says here. then he visited europe back on his way from yugoslavia. and he brought some pictures from poland, sweden, and from france. those three countries. mr. jenner. did you recognize any of them? mrs. voshinin. no, sir; i haven't been in either of this countries. and i believe he went to poland, he said, because, you know, he lived formerly in poland and he said he wanted to go there to just have a look at it. and then he said that he went to france to meet his first wife and child. i believe she is--i believe alex was at that time in france. and he went to sweden for business matters. i understood that some swedish people arranged the ghana trip of his. then, also, on the way to ghana, he went to europe. i believe he said to sweden again and then to ghana. and then--i'm not sure whether he was twice in ghana or only once. i'm quite sure once he was there. then, he went to haiti several times. mr. jenner. you were aware that he was making these trips. now, whether he actually made them or not, you don't know---- mrs. voshinin. no; i don't know. mr. jenner. other than that he told you that? mrs. voshinin. yes; and then he disappeared, you know. and he would tell us and then, of course, go away. but, for example, ghana is quite certain, i think, because of this newspaper--so, that's why. and, then, we saw him off on the airport, of course, it didn't say "ghana" on the airplane, i mean, but----[laughter.] and then i noticed he visited--he mentioned that he visited--i don't know--he mentioned that he visited guatemala and dominican republic sometime in between. mr. jenner. sometime in between what? mrs. voshinin. in between his walking trip and . mr. jenner. that was in between and his walking trip that he had visited guatemala and the dominican republic? mrs. voshinin. yes; he mentioned, at least, visiting them--but i'm not sure. mr. jenner. but you were aware of his absences from dallas? mrs. voshinin. yes; definitely. mr. jenner. and the general conversation in the community in which you moved that he was making trips to the places that he purported to be making? mrs. voshinin. yes. mr. jenner. and, upon his return, would he, in turn, recount his experiences in these various places and countries? mrs. voshinin. sometimes he would, yes; but he would never tell us what his business there was. nobody was interested in that anyway. mr. jenner. yes. mrs. voshinin. he wouldn't tell anything about it. but he would tell, yes; about--he would sometimes bring photographs like he brought from europe, from ghana, you know. mr. jenner. well, photographs that he had purportedly taken, or picture postcards or things he had purchased? mrs. voshinin. no; there were taken photographs. mr. jenner. ones that he took? mrs. voshinin. yes. and also, of course, he sent us a card once in awhile, now, i don't remember--from yugoslavia we definitely got a card. yes; we got a card from sweden from him; and from haiti we got a card. mr. jenner. now, you got cards from haiti---- mrs. voshinin. yes. mr. jenner. before this last haiti trip? mrs. voshinin. i believe so; yes; i don't remember very well; yes. you know, when he went to haiti to rest after his walking trip, we did not get any cards from him then. but before that and then after they moved to haiti we did. mr. jenner. you did get cards? mrs. voshinin. yes; uh-huh. mr. jenner. you were aware of his departing for haiti on this present sojourn of his? mrs. voshinin. oh, yes; quite. mr. jenner. tell us about that. when you first learned of it, what he said, what she said, and then his departure. mrs. voshinin. a few months before their departure, he told us that he is working on getting a job with haiti and that--i understood--that foreign aid money was involved there and this was connected with the state department again. it was not just invitation of the haiti government. and he worked on that for a few months, and he was traveling quite a lot. mr. jenner. back and forth to haiti? mrs. voshinin. not to haiti. i don't know where. because sometimes he won't even mention where he goes, just when--or sometimes on business trips. then, he went to haiti to arrange the trip. he came back and he brought from haiti a newspaper in which--french newspaper--in french--and it stated there about the survey which was given to de mohrenschildt & co. i don't know who the company is. and he brought also some statement from the bank he was showing that he had some money deposited there. it wasn't a statement. it was a letter from the bank saying that $ , was deposited in his name at that particular bank, and i understand it was by haitian government. that's what it was--as far as i remember. then, he said that he would like very much to invest some of his money in sisal plantation--[spelling] s-i-s-a-l. you know, making in rope. mr. jenner. yes; you use sisal to make rope. mrs. voshinin. and i asked him whether he was going just to manage sisal plantations or not, because he was mentioning them all the time. he says, "no; i want to invest some money into that." and i understood that his intention was to settle down in haiti. it's possible, you know. he was looking for some country for some longer time to settle down and live in that country. he was considering costa rica because he was there on his walking trip and he liked it very much. and then he decided that haiti would be very nice place to settle down, also. mr. jenner. this walking trip down through mexico and central and south america, that was kind of a dangerous business, wasn't it? mrs. voshinin. yes, i think so. and she said she was very ill on that trip. mr. jenner. she was? mrs. voshinin. uh-huh. mr. jenner. in these movies, how were they dressed? mrs. voshinin. according to the film, he was wearing shorts and she was wearing very torn dress--which looked like that tarzan lady on the films, you know. mr. jenner. yes. mrs. voshinin. and some of the pictures were her with scarcely anything on [laughing], with very little dress on. mr. jenner. did you get the impression that this was deliberate because they were apprehensive that they might be attacked as they walked? mrs. voshinin. robbed, you mean. mr. jenner. yes; robbed. mrs. voshinin. no, i thought it was more practical--because the branches scratch and tear your clothing, and, you know, less clothing you have always it is the better. however, they were traveling with a mule which probably would be considered by southern american robbers as valuable thing. so, they could have been robbed. in fact, they were attacked at night once and had to shoot it off. you know, they were shooting. but, they were very poorly dressed because jeanne told me that they were taken in the cities for paupers--they were mistaken for paupers, and people would lend them money. mr. jenner. give them pesos? mrs. voshinin. yes [laughing]. mr. jenner. all of which, i am sure, mr. de mohrenschildt enjoyed thoroughly? mrs. voshinin. tremendously [laughing]. mr. jenner. now, if you can remember any more, i wish you would tell us about de mohrenschildt's comments with respect to the oswalds and the impressions that you gained of the oswalds--as to how they got along whether he treated her well or poorly? mrs. voshinin. oswalds--his wife? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. voshinin. treated very poorly. because de mohrenschildt told us that he was beating her. then, she ran away from him and de mohrenschildt tried to help her, you know, to settle down and to separate somehow, but then, they reconciliated. and after the reconciliation, jeanne mentioned twice that marina had blue eyes--was beaten again, you know. mr. jenner. black and blue eyes? mrs. voshinin. yes. mr. jenner. was anything said, that you can recall, of either of them returning to russia? mrs. voshinin. either of whom? mr. jenner. either of the oswalds? mrs. voshinin. returning to russia? no; i don't remember. no; i don't think so. mr. jenner. no mention of the fact--if it was a fact--that oswald wanted marina to return to russia? mrs. voshinin. no; i never heard that. mr. jenner. or, that they both desired to return to russia? mrs. voshinin. no; i never heard that. mr. jenner. just nothing at all concerning---- mrs. voshinin. nothing at all concerning that. mr. jenner. any conversation that came to your attention with respect to marina undertaking to have some command of the english language and the reaction of oswald to that? mrs. voshinin. yes; that was discussed by de mohrenschildt. and george thought that marina wanted very much to study english and that lee prevented it; that he really was forbidding her to do that. and i remember that jeanne said something that he found some english book that she had, was trying to learn english behind his back, and he was very angry. incidentally, that was again one of those things that was pigeonholed against oswald, you know. because the why--you know, the reason that he gave. why would he want that? because, really, there was one more point that was very strange about oswald--my feelings were. he sort of wanted to cut off the communication of marina--even with russian people. because he was so unpleasant to russians--to those folks around who tried to help her, you know. he was quite rude, quite unpleasant--and, for some reason, we got the impression that he has a reason not to want her to communicate with people, to learn english, or to be together with russians. mr. jenner. all right. now, i'd like to ask you a few questions about that. that's why i asked you all the detail about your coming here, and how you became acquainted. this was out of the ordinary, as far as the community in which you moved is concerned? mrs. voshinin. yes; yes. mr. jenner. i take it that that community was bouhe, de mohrenschildts--and however you may have liked or disliked them in their efforts, the attitude always was to get everybody acquainted with everybody else as quickly as possible and to assist them? now, this would be especially true, for example, of marina--that you'd like to bring her into the circle? mrs. voshinin. i really can't say because we are not very close with that circle, st. nicholas circle, you know--st. nicholas parish circle. mr. jenner. well, i really am not thinking about that particular parish. mrs. voshinin. yeah. mr. jenner. i'm trying to put the background to what was bothering you--that the normal thing that you expected--would expect of these people---- mrs. voshinin. oh, yeah. i understand you now. yeah. quite. mr. jenner. was that he would bring her into acquaintance with those with whom she would be able to converse, anyhow, in russian? mrs. voshinin. that's right. mr. jenner. and become acquainted, and then, through them, to learn or otherwise to acquire facility with the english language---- mrs. voshinin. quite; or send her to school, at least, you know. that's the natural thing to do for us when we come to this country--you know, just do it as soon as possible. right? mr. jenner. yes. and what did you understand with respect to her education? mrs. voshinin. i understood that she was a pharmacist but she did not have a higher education because she was too young in age and i believe that george mentioned that she went years to college. now, that wouldn't be college in russia. it might be something---- mr. jenner. no. it would be something like junior college here? mrs. voshinin. juniors or something like that. it would give her technician status rather than a specialist in pharmacology. mr. jenner. did there come to your attention, in moving about your friends and the people here, her general level of erudition and education and intelligence in comparison with his? mrs. voshinin. no. now, of course, what i'm saying is hearsay, right? mr. jenner. i appreciate that. mrs. voshinin. but several people said differently. for example, i heard from the ladies--from the russian ladies of our parish that she was--you could see that she comes from an intelligent family, from a nice, you know, well-educated family. she has good manners and everything and she was quite a clever girl. now, then, that she was sort of, i thought, more clever than he was. you know, some people who are more developed---- mr. jenner. and more educated? mrs. voshinin. and more educated. yes. while george insisted on just the opposite. he was absolutely impressed with oswald's mental powers, for some reason. and he sort of looked down at marina, you know, a little bit. so, i really don't know what to think. mr. jenner. when was the last you heard from the de mohrenschildts? mrs. voshinin. that was christmas. we received a card from them. mr. jenner. ? mrs. voshinin. yes; it was in . mr. jenner. and what contacts, if any, did you have with them prior to that time--that is, while they were still in haiti? mrs. voshinin. with the de mohrenschildts before christmas ? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. voshinin. well, she wrote me two letters; i wrote her one letter. mr. jenner. have you had any contact with the children--either of mrs. de mohrenschildt or of mr. de mohrenschildt--recently? mrs. voshinin. well, we were visited by her daughter--by chris--twice. once it was before christmas and---- mr. jenner. but after november ? mrs. voshinin. yes. right. it was about weeks before christmas, i believe, or weeks. and now they were recently here, just--they left on march . they left dallas. mr. jenner. did they say anything during the course of this social visit, or visit here, about the de mohrenschildts--george and jeanne or jean or eugene? mrs. voshinin. well, eugenia is right. you know they said so much, i just hate to repeat it because i just don't know how much they exaggerated. they were angry with both of them and i just don't believe that---- mr. jenner. well, i don't want you to repeat all the personal things. i wanted your overall impression, which you have now volunteered, that they were angry with george de mohrenschildt and mrs. de mohrenschildt. mrs. voshinin. yes. mr. jenner. angry in what sense? mrs. voshinin. uh--they said that they were not very hospitable for one thing and, for another things, they--well, they said that george and jeanne took a turn for the worse politically. mr. jenner. well, now, would you develop that, please? mrs. voshinin. i hate to do that, because i just don't know how true it all is. mr. jenner. i understand that all you are doing is telling us what they said. it is pure hearsay. i understand. mrs. voshinin. pure hearsay of angry children. mr. jenner. yes. mrs. voshinin. that's what it is. right? well, they said that the majority of their trouble with jeanne and george was because they were shooting their mouths off there--pro-left and against united states--something to that effect; chris said that george was making the most--the funniest accusations--statements in public, you know, like at cocktail parties, for example. mr. jenner. yes. mrs. voshinin. that he does not believe that oswald murdered the president; that he believes that rightwing or fbi, i am not sure--and this was, of course, awfully shocking to children. mr. jenner. he believed that the rightwing or the fbi what? mrs. voshinin. that's what the children said. mr. jenner. what? mrs. voshinin. murdered the president. that's what the children said and i, frankly don't---- mr. jenner. you don't put much stock in it? mrs. voshinin. no; i don't. mr. jenner. did the children express any opinion as to whether these were rantings or nonsense or---- mrs. voshinin. of course, they were outraged by the statement, like everybody is. but what i want to say only that sometimes george gets so bitter he doesn't know what he says; you know, just doesn't know what he says. so, that's why i believe that you cannot approach george or jeanne to this extent with standard measures. you cannot measure them by standard measures at all--what they say or what they do even. they require different measures. mr. jenner. well, that opinion on your part is something that we necessarily must weigh. we are trying to find out about these personalities so we can judge these things in the light of what they did, what they said, and whether these are fulminations and ravings and rantings and nonsense. these things come to our attention, mrs. voshinin, and we have to determine whether we will undertake to run them down. the fact that they are rumors doesn't excuse us from giving them consideration---- mrs. voshinin. i realize that. mr. jenner. as to whether there is any fact involved in this hearsay and rumor---- mrs. voshinin. i realize that. mr. jenner. even though you, as a dedicated and loyal american, you would regard it as so ridiculous that it must be nonsense. that doesn't necessarily mean that it is nonsense. and we have to exercise some judgment. now, i think i have pretty well completed my questioning of you. i would like to make this inquiry of you, though, if you will permit. is there anything that's occurred to you that you think might be helpful to the commission in its investigation? it might be a source leading us to something that might be helpful--that you would like to suggest to us? people who might know, incidents that occurred that i haven't been able to stimulate your recollection on? anything at all that you think might be helpful in the investigation of the matter of the assassination of the president, john f. kennedy? mrs. voshinin. i can't think of anything. no. mr. jenner. you don't think of anything? mrs. voshinin. no. i can't think of anything--people that might be useful. mr. jenner. well, people or incidents or anything occurred during all this period that you've been covering that you think might be helpful? it might be somebody different from the de mohrenschildts or it might be an incident that occurred. mrs. voshinin. [pausing before reply.] you know, i heard the rumors that--like everybody else heard--which you have heard definitely--but i don't know anybody whom to trace those rumors to you know. that's the trouble. i don't know any particular person who could throw any light on that thing. mr. jenner. yes; all right. we have occasionally been off the record and had some discussion during the course of this examination, is there anything that you reported to me or we discussed in the off-the-record discussions that you believe is pertinent to the investigation or to your testimony, which i failed to bring out? mrs. voshinin. no; i think that we covered the ground pretty thoroughly. mr. jenner. is there anything that took place in those discussions that you would regard as, in any degree, inconsistent with any of your testimony, which i, in turn, failed to bring out? mrs. voshinin. i don't quite understand that question. mr. jenner. well, what i'm getting at is this: is there anything in the discussions which we had off the record while you were in this room that you think was inconsistent with your testimony as i brought it out that ought to be on the record? mrs. voshinin. i don't remember very well what was off the record and what was on. but i don't think so. i think everything was on. mr. jenner. all right. you think i have brought out everything? mrs. voshinin. everything; yes; i do. mr. jenner. all right. now, mrs. voshinin, you have the privilege and possibly i should also say the right--i must say the right--to read over your deposition when it has been transcribed by the reporter--which we hope will be next week. either i will be here or other representatives of the commission will be in dallas for at least the next weeks. you and your husband call in and ask for mr. barefoot sanders, the u.s. attorney, and he'll know when your deposition is ready for you to read, if you wish to read it. mrs. voshinin. yes. mr. jenner. and then perhaps, in reading it, other things may occur to you or the transcription may not be as you recall you said something, and you will want to make some change. and you may have a copy of your deposition by arrangement with this young lady, who will afford you and your husband a copy of your respective depositions at whatever her regular rates are. mrs. voshinin. all right. mr. jenner. and you may purchase one. your husband, i should say, expressed a desire to have his and put it in the safety deposit box [laughter]. mrs. voshinin. a historical document! mr. jenner. mrs. voshinin, thank you so much. i hope you didn't think i was probing into your personal affairs or pressuring you too severely. mrs. voshinin. no; not at all. mr. davis. and i enjoyed your accent immensely. it has brought back very wonderful memories for me. mrs. voshinin. thank you. testimony of igor vladimir voshinin the testimony of igor vladimir voshinin was taken at a.m., on march , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. albert e. jenner, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. robert t. davis, assistant attorney general of texas, was present. mr. jenner. mr. voshinin, would you stand and be sworn, please? do you swear, in your testimony here, to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? mr. voshinin. i do. mr. jenner. your name is igor vladimir voshinin? mr. voshinin. that's right. mr. jenner. mr. voshinin, the presidential commission appointed to investigate the assassination of president kennedy desires to inquire of you with respect to any part you may have played in, or persons you may have known here in dallas or in the dallas area, who had some contact with lee harvey oswald, or information that you might have that would help the commission in its investigation of this horrible tragedy. have you received a letter from j. lee rankin, the general counsel of the commission, with which was enclosed copy of executive order no. , creating a commission? mr. voshinin. yes; i have. mr. jenner. and senate joint resolution no. of the congress of the united states authorizing the commission? mr. voshinin. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and a copy of the rules of procedure of the commission? mr. voshinin. yes. mr. jenner. i am albert e. jenner, jr., member of the legal staff of the commission, and have been authorized by the general counsel to proceed to take your deposition. you reside where? mr. voshinin. mockingbird lane in highland park, tex. mr. jenner. and is highland park a suburb of dallas? mr. voshinin. that's right; but it is an independent community. mr. jenner. yes; how long have you resided in highland park, tex.? mr. voshinin. since . mr. jenner. prior to that time where did you reside? mr. voshinin. in university park. mr. jenner. also a suburb---- mr. voshinin. an independent community and suburb. mr. jenner. and for how long did you reside there? mr. voshinin. oh, since , i guess. mr. jenner. i see. mr. voshinin. now, it may be late in . mr. jenner. what is your business or occupation or profession? mr. voshinin. i am a professional engineer. mr. jenner. and by whom are you employed, or are you an independent engineer? mr. voshinin. at this time i am employed by mullen & powell, consulting engineers. mr. jenner. would you spell that name, please? mr. voshinin. [spelling] m-u-l-l-e-n & p-o-w-e-l-l. mr. jenner. what area of engineering do you direct your attention? mr. voshinin. in structural engineering. mr. jenner. are you a citizen of the united states? mr. voshinin. i am. mr. jenner. by naturalization or birth? mr. voshinin. by naturalization. mr. jenner. and when were you naturalized? mr. voshinin. i have to see [looking through billfold]. it must be --i'm sorry to delay you. mr. jenner. oh, take it easy. we have plenty of time. don't let it worry you a bit. (the witness hands card to mr. jenner.) mr. jenner. [reading] march , ? mr. voshinin. yeah. mr. jenner. in the light of that, mr. voshinin, in what country were you born? mr. voshinin. i was born in russia before the revolution. mr. jenner. and how old a man are you? mr. voshinin. i was born in --so, therefore, i am years old. mr. jenner. you are year older than i am. i'll be next june. and did you alone, or your family, come directly to the united states from russia? mr. voshinin. no, sir. mr. jenner. without detail, tell us how you came to this country and approximately when. mr. voshinin. well, we were living in southern russia, which was in the hands of the white army, and when the communists advanced, since we were close, our family left from a port on the black sea. mr. jenner. now, when was this? mr. voshinin. that was in --early in . mr. jenner. you were then years old, approximately? mr. voshinin. thirteen--yeah. me and my mother we left first for greece and then to turkey, and my father left directly to turkey and we met in constantinople, now istanbul in turkey. mr. jenner. uh-huh. mr. voshinin. and, after that, we altogether went to yugoslavia where we lived up to this last war. mr. jenner. ---- mr. voshinin. in , the germans forced me to go to work to germany, and actually, i jumped their train and remained in austria close to yugoslavia. and after--by the end of the war when the communists were close, you know, we moved further west and somehow managed to come to kempten---- mr. jenner. to what? mr. voshinin. to kempten in south bavaria--[spelling] k-e-m-p-t-en--and that's where we met the american army. mr. jenner. what you mean is that the american army in its advance reached the bavarian area and freed you? mr. voshinin. well, the american army came to kempten on th of april and we reached kempten on the th of april. so, i was just days in germany before the american army. mr. jenner. are you married? mr. voshinin. yes; i am. mr. jenner. and what is your wife's name? mr. voshinin. natalie. mr. jenner. and where did you marry her? mr. voshinin. belgrade, yugoslavia. mr. jenner. when? mr. voshinin. it was in . mr. jenner. do you have a family? mr. voshinin. no; i have no children. i have only my father here. mr. jenner. when did you come to the united states? mr. voshinin. uh--it was november , . mr. jenner. and your wife accompanied you at that time? mr. voshinin. that's right. mr. jenner. and you settled where in this country? mr. voshinin. we settled first in new york. mr. jenner. city? mr. voshinin. new york city, for some time, then we mostly lived in new jersey. mr. jenner. did you receive a higher education--that is, an education beyond high school equivalent? mr. voshinin. yes, sir. mr. jenner. would you tell us what that was, please, and where? mr. voshinin. i have bachelor degree in civil engineering from the university of belgrade, , and the master degree in civil engineering from the brooklyn polytechnic institute, in . mr. jenner. and the brooklyn polytechnic institute is in new york city, or its environs? mr. voshinin. that's right--in brooklyn. mr. jenner. and you have pursued your profession in civil engineering---- mr. voshinin. since , up to now--except for the time of war. mr. jenner. would you give me the dates again when you were in yugoslavia? mr. voshinin. from the middle of to . mr. jenner. ? is that when the germans sought to bring you to germany and you escaped then to austria? mr. voshinin. yeah. mr. jenner. that was an escape, wasn't it? mr. voshinin. well, it was a little illegal [laughter]. because they dragged everybody to the rhine, you know--and somehow i managed, with other people, to get out of that train. there were hundreds of people who got out. mr. davis. did you stay in austria, then, throughout the war? mr. voshinin. yes; almost out through the war. mr. jenner. now, austria was occupied by the germans also, was it not? mr. voshinin. austria was occupied also as well as yugoslavia. and, of course, you had to go to the labor office--because otherwise i would be arrested immediately. mr. davis. when you'd go there, they'd let you stay in austria? mr. voshinin. you see, every labor office was grabbing for labor force--whoever would come, you know. and, therefore, they would not disclose your name to the next labor office, you know. so, i--when i got out of the train with two other fellows--and, of course, it has cost us something; it wasn't for free, you know. mr. jenner. you had to do a little bribery? mr. voshinin. yeah, to three persons there--including the guard which was taking, as we were explained, cigarettes. when we came out, we had seen about a hundred people who did the same thing--so, it probably was going--big business there. mr. davis. when did you come to dallas? mr. voshinin. --about the first of september. mr. jenner. you were naturalized in new york city? mr. voshinin. no, sir; in new brunswick, n.j. mr. jenner. oh, new brunswick, n.j.? mr. voshinin. new brunswick, n.j. yeah. we mostly preferred to live in new jersey, you know. it's a little better air. i'm an asthmatic, you know. mr. jenner. you're asthmatic? mr. voshinin. yeah; i'm asthmatic--and, therefore, i have to choose my climate. mr. jenner. mrs. voshinin--was she likewise born in russia? mr. voshinin. that's right. only she's years younger so when her parents took her out of russia, then she was year old. mr. jenner. she probably wouldn't remember then. mr. voshinin. she doesn't know anything about it. mr. jenner. now, when you came to dallas in september of , had you had any advance acquaintance with anybody here? mr. voshinin. yes; i knew two persons whom i met through the church. mr. jenner. and what church is that? mr. voshinin. uh--the church in houston. mr. jenner. what is the name of it and what is its denomination? mr. voshinin. greek orthodox church. mr. jenner. greek orthodox church? mr. voshinin. yes; i don't know what the church's name is. i think it's st. vladimir--but i'm not sure. mr. jenner. st. vladimir? mr. voshinin. yeah; i think so--but i'm not quite sure that was the name. and the thing is that we wanted to settle in houston first---- mr. jenner. i see. mr. voshinin. but we didn't like the climate. and the people there they gave us the name of mr. raigorodsky--paul raigorodsky. mr. jenner. spell that last name, please. mr. voshinin. r-a-i-g-o-r-o-d-s-k-y. mr. jenner. is he of russian descent--or yugoslavian or what? mr. voshinin. yeah; russian. mr. jenner. he had preceded you to this country? mr. voshinin. oh, yes. mr. jenner. how long? mr. voshinin. he was the first russian immigrant who settled here in dallas. mr. jenner. i see. mr. voshinin. and he is a millionaire--a very rich man. mr. jenner. had you known him? mr. voshinin. no; we didn't know him personally but the priest there, the pastor, you know, of our denomination in houston said that when you go to dallas--we said that we passed through dallas going to houston and we said we liked the climate much better and it's too humid there. so we said, "well, you know, we go to that city, we may settle there, but we don't know anybody." so, he said, "well, why don't you--we have two men who are able to help you--and this is mr. raigorodsky and mr. bouhe--george bouhe." the russians are referring--joking about raigorodsky--they call him, "the czar," here. mr. jenner. yeah. mr. voshinin. so--he's an old man--and so when we came, then the next day--it was during our vacation in --and so we went to see raigorodsky and then we went to see bouhe. and they told us that there is a church of our denomination here on mckinney and a few other just useful things--nothing in particular. mr. jenner. all right. well, the main thing i wanted--when you came to dallas, you didn't know anybody? mr. voshinin. no. mr. jenner. you then became acquainted with mr. bouhe? mr. voshinin. bouhe--and mr. raigorodsky. mr. raigorodsky we kind of liked--and mr. bouhe we kind of disliked. mr. davis. was there any special reason for that other than just---- mr. voshinin. well, mr. bouhe, he likes to help people but he likes to mix in their affairs---- mr. jenner. their personal affairs? mr. voshinin. and tell them what to do and what not to do. and i don't need a nurse here now. i like to listen to people's advice but i don't like to have a nurse. i'm grown up. that's why i don't like--didn't like his approach too well. mr. jenner. bouhe, while a well meaning and helpful man, he was a little aggressive in your personal affairs? mr. voshinin. yeah. well, he is with everybody. he is an old bachelor, you know, and he doesn't have anything else to do. mr. jenner. may i inquire with respect to that--your aversion, at least initially, to mr. bouhe was confined to the fact, was it not that you thought him a little too aggressive insofar as your personal affairs--particularly advising you and directing you as to what to and what not to do? mr. voshinin. yes. well, everybody complaining the same way. mr. jenner. i see. mr. voshinin. yes. although i don't mind him helping people. mr. jenner. specifically, however, that aversion has nothing to do, has it, with any political views that mr. bouhe may entertain? mr. voshinin. no. mr. jenner. and i mean "political" in the sense of his views on government--communism--conservatism--whatever it might be? mr. voshinin. no. but my impression is that he is rather conservative--in russian politics, i mean. he always talks about the czarist times and about the times his father was some big shot somewhere. mr. jenner. in russia? mr. voshinin. yeah. mr. jenner. do you regard him, however, as a loyal american? mr. voshinin. uh--well, i don't know. we never talked about any american politics with him. so i regard him as far as i don't have any proof otherwise. mr. jenner. you don't suspect him, however, of any communist affiliation? mr. voshinin. well--uh--one is accustomed to suspect everybody. mr. jenner. well, no more than that? mr. voshinin. but--uh--no more than that, i would say. mr. jenner. now, your acquaintance with people here in dallas broadened, did it not, as time went on? mr. voshinin. that's right. mr. jenner. i take it that, initially at least, your acquaintance was largely among that segment of the community or society here of people from russia, yugoslavia, and central european countries? mr. voshinin. yeah--and lebanon. mr. jenner. lebanon, also? mr. voshinin. yeah--well, those people who come to church. mr. jenner. your acquaintance, initially, was among church folks---- mr. voshinin. yeah. mr. jenner. who attended your church? mr. voshinin. yes. mr. jenner. and that was the greek orthodox church here in dallas? mr. voshinin. yes; the greek orthodox church, here on mckinney avenue--because there is another greek orthodox church on swiss. that's the church where all the greek people go, and all the non-greek people went on mckinney, because on mckinney the service was in the english language. mr. jenner. what is the name of the parish? mr. voshinin. well, there were two parishes there. mr. jenner. yeah. mr. voshinin. on mckinney, there were two parishes in one church. one was called the st. nicholas parish and the other, the st. seraphim parish. the st. seraphim parish is the english-speaking parish where the services were in english. and at most times that's the parish who held their services there; whereas the building belonged to st. nicholas parish--who had their services once in weeks, with their pastor coming from houston. mr. jenner. and that was father---- mr. voshinin. father alexander. mr. jenner. and the father of the other parish is dimitri? mr. voshinin. father dimitri royster. mr. jenner. royster? mr. voshinin. yes. mr. jenner. yes. mr. voshinin. and the st. nicholas parish secretary-treasurer is mr. bouhe. mr. jenner. yes. he's the motivating force, is he? mr. voshinin. he's the motivating force there--and everything [laughter]. our sympathies switched very quickly to st. seraphim church and i became a member of the church council there at st. seraphim and--uh--i didn't like to be a member of st. nicholas any more. mr. jenner. is that largely because of the aggressiveness of mr. bouhe? mr. voshinin. and because of the irregularity of the church meeting once in weeks--and many other things--and because i believe that the church in this country should be in the language of the country. i think it's natural--it's what it should be in order that our denomination can exist at all--because in two, three generations, the people lose their national language, and then there is no church. besides that, uh--i--what did i want to say? besides that, i don't think that's a good idea to divide christians by their language in thousand and one churches. we have people of six or seven national backgrounds and is--it's absolutely senseless in serving the service in some other language than the language in which everybody can understand. and, therefore, we switched to the st. seraphim church--of which we have remained members up to now. mr. jenner. were these two parishes and the church itself--that is, the greek orthodox church consisting of the two parishes--is that the medium through which in large part the emigre group, let me say--from russia, from yugoslavia, from---- mr. voshinin. lebanon; yeah. mr. jenner. became acquainted? mr. voshinin. yes; yes. everybody knows everybody. mr. jenner. everybody knew everybody? mr. voshinin. that's right. mr. jenner. and all rumors and everything else passed back and forth through this group? mr. voshinin. yes; that's right. mr. jenner. and is it true that arising out of this common interest in the greek orthodox church and the two parishes that a measure of social intercourse, apart from the church, was also generated? mr. voshinin. yes; that is true. mr. jenner. and you people generally became acquainted, one with the other, in not only your church activity but your general social activity as well? mr. voshinin. yeah--well, i wouldn't say "general" social activity, because, in addition to the church, i meet people through my office and my wife met them too, so--but partially, yes. mr. jenner. yes. at least, through that medium, whether you wanted to or not you sort of kept track of everybody? mr. voshinin. that's right. mr. jenner. everybody knew something about what the other fellow was doing or would like to? mr. voshinin. yeah--and as far as i know mr. bouhe even kept files and still keeps files on everybody--when anybody was born, baptized, or whatever happened to everybody. mr. jenner. i see. mr. voshinin. he even showed me a file and he said, "say, you came here, i immediately opened a file on you." i say, "what for?" and he say, "well, you know, i forget things--so i keep a file on everybody." then, later, the parishes separated, as you know. mr. jenner. the parishes separated. yes. i've heard that. mr. voshinin. because, somehow, their life together, you know, became unbearable and finally the st. seraphim church decided to move out. mr. jenner. of that building? mr. voshinin. of that building on mckinney. and we bought a house on newton and throckmorton, as you know. and the st. nicholas church remained within empty house which they only used once in weeks; so they decided to sell it and they sold that house and it was torn away--torn down. and now there is a gulf station on mckinney. mr. jenner. a gulf gasoline station? mr. voshinin. yeah; and they are still holding their church meetings at the house of mr. and mrs. tsinzadze (phonetic). mr. jenner. hold it. can you spell that? mr. voshinin. well, i don't know how to spell that. this is a georgian name. these are georgian people. mr. jenner. by "georgian," you mean---- mr. voshinin. from georgia. mr. jenner. from the georgia part of russia? mr. voshinin. yeah. it's the [spelling] t-s-i-n-z-a-d-z-e, something like that. mr. jenner. that's good enough. mr. voshinin. and we have been perhaps two or three times since that in tsinzadze's house--because my father, i think, goes to confession there. he cannot go to the english confession. he prefers to have his confession in the russian language. so, they still have, a pastor coming there--but not from houston. that pastor who was in houston is now in johannesburg, south africa. and they have a retired pastor from galveston--from the galveston greek orthodox church--who comes there once in weeks or so and they have services. so, perhaps once in the year we go there--or twice. mr. jenner. mr. voshinin, this is very interesting to me. would you describe this community of people in your own words? tell me about the community as a group. mr. voshinin. st. nicholas? mr. jenner. no; the whole--this russian---- mr. voshinin. they are not only russians there. of course, russians--you said russians--yugoslav, lebanese--but in addition to that, there are those people--estonians and latvians. you see, there are a lot of latvians and estonians who are greek orthodox. well, you see, there is a national differentiation now--yeah--in addition, i can take another nationality. these are people--west ukrainians and carpathian russians. these people have former austrian citizenship and polish citizenship. they come from that part which is known as galicia. so, nowdays, the people who are in st. nicholas parish--we call that "bouhe's parish," in our usual usage of language. that's what we usually call bouhe's parish. mr. davis. he's still the secretary of that parish? mr. voshinin. he's still the secretary of that parish--yeah. these people are mostly those baltic people there, with few russians. there are perhaps about russians there and about to estonians and latvians. that is st. nicholas though, whereas the st. seraphim church has a much wider, of course, background because there are russians there, there are yugoslavs--it's true that bouhe's group has some yugoslavs but they never come to his church--not very often at least--very rare; but they come to us, too--so i don't think they are members any place--those to which i'm talking about. but in our church there are a lot of--well, not too many russians there--not many people with russian background in our city at all; but we have those called carpathian russians and west ukrainians and we have some serbians--people with serbian backgrounds; we have some greek people even; we have all the arabic people here--you know, lebanese and other arabic countries which are greek orthodox; and we have american people with just plain anglo-american background who became members. mr. jenner. who became interested in the greek orthodox church? mr. voshinin. yes. mr. jenner. uh, huh. mr. voshinin. our pastor himself, was a former baptist who, through study of church history, became orthodox. mr. jenner. is this group--and i'm going to call the group both bouhe's following as well as the group in which you move--are they, by and large people who have enjoyed higher education either in this country or in europe, or asia? mr. voshinin. no; in bouhe's group there are only a few people with higher education; whereas, in our group, i would say there is a lot of people with higher education. we have doctors and engineers and---- mr. jenner. these people, i take it, are interested in the welfare of others in the group--in the general sense of the word? mr. voshinin. yes. mr. jenner. now, did there move into this community or come into this community that we have now described largely in terms of church, some people by the name--or a man by the name--whose last name was de mohrenschildt? mr. voshinin. yes--except that he is an atheist and doesn't believe in god. mr. jenner. yes, he is an atheist--but he did arrive on the scene or he was on the scene---- mr. voshinin. oh, he was on the scene for a long time before we arrived here. mr. jenner. he was here? mr. voshinin. yes; he was here. mr. jenner. when you came here then, in september , you found de mohrenschildt already here? mr. voshinin. oh, yes. mr. jenner. and was he active among these people--even though, as you say, he's an atheist? mr. voshinin. oh, he was singing in the church choir. mr. jenner. he was singing in the church choir even though---- mr. voshinin. at st. nicholas. mr. jenner. even though he was an atheist? mr. voshinin. that's right. mr. jenner. well, that's rather unusual. how did that strike you? mr. voshinin. well, it struck me unusual but he said he was educated in that religion and somehow by habit continued coming once in awhile to church. mr. jenner. even though he didn't believe in church? mr. voshinin. oh, he said he doesn't believe in it but---- mr. jenner. and was de mohrenschildt married at that time? mr. voshinin. yes, sir. mr. jenner. to whom? mr. voshinin. to the sharples girl. mr. jenner. what are they--quakers? mr. voshinin. yes, i guess so. dee dee, i think, was her name. i don't know what it stands for. she was a medical doctor--his wife. mr. jenner. what do you know of de mohrenschildt's background? mr. voshinin. only what he told me, of course. mr. jenner. and what was said by others in this community of people? mr. voshinin. yes; something what was said by others. mr. jenner. all right. you give me his background as you learned it by reputation among the people you have described. mr. voshinin. yeah. well, de mohrenschildt comes from a swedish family. mr. jenner. you mean, by reputation, he was born in sweden? mr. voshinin. no. he was born, as i heard, in baku in azerbaijan. this is part of southern russia and baku is in azerbaijan on the caspian sea. mr. jenner. yes. mr. voshinin. and i understand that his father was a nobleman and born in russia somewhere from swedish parents--and that he was a rich man and---- mr. jenner. his father was a rich man? mr. voshinin. yes; and they had some big land, too, and probably some other interests which led him to go to baku, because baku is the oil town in russia. so, probably a very substantially rich man. as he said, during the revolution, his father was arrested--i don't know by whom--and i think his mother, too, as i understand, and he, as a small boy, was running on the streets, was completely wild and hungry. and then his father somehow managed, and his mother, managed to get out of prison, and they moved to poland. he told us that he got his high school education in poland and then went to the military school in poland and finished the military school and became a polish cavalry officer--and he was proudly showing his picture, you know, of him on a horse in a wonderful uniform. so--but, somehow, he did not like the military life, so he resigned and went to school in france and belgium, i guess, and, as he told us--i never saw his diploma--but he told us he has a ph. d. degree in economics. mr. jenner. from a school in belgium? mr. voshinin. belgium or in france. i don't know. i--you know, i don't like to question people too much. mr. jenner. no. all you're doing is giving me what he said and what is at large in the community we talked about. mr. voshinin. yeah. so--but i don't know exactly, you know, if i would think if it would be of interest for anybody i would try to remember, of course, better but--somewhere, i don't know. he probably told me from which school it was, but i don't remember. after that, he decided to emigrate to the united states, came here and saw that what he learned was of no use, so he went to school again--and he went to school in austin. mr. jenner. austin, tex.? mr. voshinin. austin, tex.--and in colorado. now, whether it was colorado the university or colorado the school of mines, i don't know. but he finally became a petroleum engineer. as i understand, he earned his master's degree. after that, he went to work in some southern american country or--i think he was sometime in mexico and in some other country--i think it was venezuela, which i'm not sure again, it might be something else. and--uh--then i think he returned here again during the war. mr. jenner. that's the second world war? mr. voshinin. yes; during the second world war, and---- mr. jenner. when you say, "returned here," do you mean returned to the dallas area or to the united states? mr. voshinin. to the united states. mr. jenner. all right. mr. voshinin. what he did during the war, i don't know; but, after the war, he was working for some oil company. i think he had connections with the oil company in which his father-in-law, sharples, had some interest--because he was receiving some money from that company even after he divorced his wife--until it finally stopped. but he was--i remember that he was saying, "well, they stopped my money i received from the sharples co." he says, "now, they got me with this thing. i am not a consultant any more." he was some kind of consultant for that company--i don't know what of, the company's, that is. so, therefore, you know, i learned that he had received that all the time though. i don't imagine it was too much money, but helping him. and, finally, he wanted to go on his own and make money the whole time, you know. so, he opened his own office and was drilling for oil and made also some consultations. and i know that before we came here he was very successful in the caribbean area, and he got big money--real big money. mr. jenner. this is by reputation? mr. voshinin. yeah; but he always was bragging about him finding oil somewhere. i don't know whether it was cuba or haiti. i think it was cuba. but that must be in --something like that--because i know he was always running around talking about income tax on that money because it was such a deal outside the country, you know, present certain difficulties and you have to ask the lawyers, you know, which year you receive that and so on. so, he was always consulting some specialist about what to do about that sort of thing. mr. jenner. this is what he said anyway? mr. voshinin. that's what he said anyway. i was never in business with him--so i don't know. so, shortly after that, after we came here--you see, how we met him, my wife is a geologist with a master degree from rutgers university; and we were looking, you know, when we came through this area, we were looking for such a place which would be good for my health and which also would give her the possibility to work in her profession--and not be so noisy as new york is. so, she was looking for a job--which was very difficult for a beginner, you know, a woman geologist--though we have a dozen of them here. but--so bouhe gave us--he said, "there is a russian geologist"--so bouhe gave my wife the address of mr. de mohrenschildt's office. he has a very good--beautiful office in first national bank. so---- mr. jenner. and that's how you met de mohrenschildt? mr. voshinin. that's how we met de mohrenschildt. so, my wife worked there for about---- mr. jenner. she worked in his office? mr. voshinin. yeah, for half a day--part-time. mr. de mohrenschildt, he was very nice and he said, "well, i don't have anything but you can--i want to bring my files in order, you know, and you help me a little so for sometimes i can give you something to start with--and i have a big friend of mine, mr. henry rogatz, who is looking for an assistant. so, he called him on the telephone and he said, "i have an assistant for you, it's a girl, she can help you in geology and all your work." so, henry hired my wife for that first month at half-day--she worked half a day for de mohrenschildt and half a day for rogatz. and my wife only worked for de mohrenschildt, i think, or weeks and then she moved to rogatz' office and worked there for the whole day until he retired--which was about a year and a half ago. so, all that time, my wife worked for henry rogatz. and de mohrenschildt, in that winter, divorced his wife and closed his office. mr. jenner. what year was this? mr. voshinin. well, he divorced his wife--that was , i would say, and he had trouble with his wife, i think, beginning in that winter-- or --and finally he divorced her and after--sometimes after that he also closed his office. i don't know which year exactly he closed his office but that must be around . and then he--after he closed his office, he told all of us that he is no more interested in opening another office because that's too hard for him because he has, you know--he had some kind of accident, as i understand, and he cannot drive too long, he cannot sit too long, and he has difficulties to concentrate--and, therefore, he has to have an office where he can--you know, some job which he can walk a little, consult a little, talk a little, but not too much paperwork. that's what he explained to me. mr. jenner. not follow a regimen--be there at , have lunch at , come back at ---- mr. voshinin. yeah. he says he has difficulties doing that--just physical difficulties, so he said that he decided to work--to look for foreign assignments; he said that the government has that foreign aid program and in connection with that he will be able to find some kind of job like that and he says he will go to washington and there are some kind of agents called -percenters in washington who you can--if you find the right man you will get a job. so, he was traveling back and forth to washington and so on, and finally he said he got a job in yugoslavia; he doesn't like it too much because he's a little afraid going there but he doesn't have any other way out because he's broke. so, he went to yugoslavia and stayed there for about a year. so, that was---- mr. jenner. was he married then? mr. voshinin. no; he was not married at that time. before that, he met that so-called mrs. le gon, who posed as a french woman, and he met her at the swimming pool of the stoneleigh hotel---- mr. jenner. he met her. mr. voshinin. he met her at the swimming pool of the stoneleigh hotel--because he was living at the stoneleigh hotel after his divorce and she was living there---- mr. jenner. excuse me. he was living there after his divorce--and she was also living there? mr. voshinin. she was also living there--yes. she was, as i understand, a fashion designer, and she traveled to different cities to sell her ideas, you know, for design. she went to new york to sell--her permanent residence, as i understand, was los angeles or some suburb thereof. but she used to come here and sell her fashion designs to somebody called clarke, i guess. she was--so, she was temporarily here but pretty often. so, they met there and fell in love, you know, and though she is russian, of course, she would not say a word russian; she would talk english with a french accent and saying she was a french woman. up to now, i think mr. de mohrenschildt does not know everything about his wife. he told me two times that there is something that he doesn't understand in her former life and he says that's the part before she came to the united states; and he says the moment he tries to question her about that--because he says, "it's my wife, i want to know,"--he says she's just mute; she doesn't want to talk about it at all. and we know, for example, that every time she meets some russian from china, she doesn't want to talk to them at all. what it was, i don't know--and even de mohrenschildt told me he doesn't know. mr. jenner. is she reputed to have been born in or to have lived in china? mr. voshinin. yes; she is. she was born somewhere in china. her father's name was fomenko, she said--[spelling] f-o-m-e-n-k-o--who was an engineer on the east chinese railroad---- mr. jenner. all right. can you describe de mohrenschildt's personality? mr. voshinin. well, do you want the further travelings as far as i know? mr. jenner. yes; please. mr. voshinin. so, after--well, he went to yugoslavia in the middle of that year. when he was in yugoslavia, she went to visit him there. mr. jenner. his present wife? mr. voshinin. his present wife. mr. jenner. and, at that time, his present wife was not his wife? mr. voshinin. no. mr. jenner. all right. mr. voshinin. they were very much in love, you know--and her husband who was here two times and he was chasing de mohrenschildt, and george de mohrenschildt says, "he will kill me with a revolver"--and there was some kind of--we took it more or less of a joke, you know, just as very cheap movie film. but george de mohrenschildt was so much afraid that he even slept in a motel somewhere, not in his stoneleigh apartment. and, then, her husband, also, as i understand, hired a detective who was running constantly de mohrenschildt--and all kinds of things like that. mr. jenner. a lot of cloak and dagger? mr. voshinin. yeah--cloak and dagger stuff. so after that, they divorced--she divorced her husband--and, you know, he is now in an insane--had some kind of nervous breakdown after that, and he is now in some kind of insane asylum or sanitorium, i don't know what. mr. jenner. in california? mr. voshinin. in california; yes. bogoiavlensky is his actual name, not le gon. mr. jenner. why don't we get your spelling on that name? we had somebody try it yesterday. would you---- mr. voshinin. if you give me a pencil, i may try it. (after writing name, as set out above, hands paper to mr. jenner.) i think that's it. mr. jenner. that spelling makes sense. i think that's probably an accurate spelling. mr. voshinin. her daughter still keeps this name. mr. jenner. what is her daughter's first name--the one you now have in mind? mr. voshinin. christina. mr. jenner. christina. and she also had a child--alexandra? mr. voshinin. i don't know anything about it. mr. jenner. did de mohrenschildt have a daughter by the name of alexandra? mr. voshinin. de mohrenschildt has two daughters, but i wouldn't know their names. mr. jenner. all right. mr. voshinin. though i met both girls, but i somehow slipped up. my wife probably knows them. mr. jenner. all right. mr. voshinin. christina bogoiavlensky is a very good girl--and her husband, too. they are quite different from the parents. mr. jenner. go ahead. mr. voshinin. so, after that assignment in yugoslavia, he had an assignment in ghana--which somehow puzzled us. first of all, it was a pretty short assignment; secondly, that the thing is that he showed us a newspaper edited in ghana in which, on the first page, was a short article describing the arrival of "this famous specialist in postal stamps--mr. de mohrenschildt, who came to ghana on business as a representative of a swedish company." well, de mohrenschildt, what he says about that, he says, "oh, those jerks--they don't know anything." mr. jenner. now, excuse me. the newspaper account was to the effect that de mohrenschildt had come to ghana as a representative of a swedish company? mr. voshinin. well, i don't know whether the word "swedish," was in there--but it said, "as a representative,"--and he said that it would be this swedish company. mr. jenner. he said that it was a swedish company? mr. voshinin. yeah. the newspaper may just had the name of the company, you know. mr. jenner. but it did mention de mohrenschildt? mr. voshinin. oh, yes. "george de mohrenschildt, famous philatelist and specialist in stamps"--and so on. and i said, "george, since when do you understand anything in stamps? since when are you a specialist in postal stamps?" "oh," he said, "i'm not; but, first of all, those jerks there, they don't know the difference anyhow; besides that, that company also provides ghana and other african country with stamps, and it also has trades in different other commodities and also has oil interests in africa." so, he says, "i went there as their representative to see what parts of the country they would lease there for, you know, for oil leases and assign--and sign some kind of contract with them--with the government of ghana--in their name, and came back to dallas. mr. jenner. and then he returned to dallas? mr. voshinin. yeah. and, later, he also referred that that company has interests in nigeria--and he says, "you know, i am swedish--so they rely on me." the whole thing puzzles us a little because i think there are many geologists in sweden itself--but perhaps they don't have oil specialists there. i think there is no oil in sweden. mr. jenner. did you and the other members of the community think that he was exaggerating or this was all fictional? mr. voshinin. well, i couldn't doubt when the newspaper says that. mr. jenner. when the ghana newspaper said that? mr. voshinin. yeah. so he must have been in ghana. he wouldn't print that newspaper--i hope. but, of course, he is a man who exaggerates a lot. he is that kind of character. i never believe percent of whatever he was talking, because he was always, you know, making talk much more than he actually is. mr. jenner. at least, he tended to exaggerate? mr. voshinin. yes; because he always posed everybody as a big shot, you know. mr. jenner. everybody with whom he was associated? mr. voshinin. yes, are--or to whom he met--that he was a, you know, big businessman, big oil man, and so on--big specialist. and he wrote an article about himself in the oil and gas journal about yugoslavia, his trip to yugoslavia, and it was said that by knowledge of the state department he was there; and it was implied that he was actually in the foreign aid, you know, and that he--and it was said, you know, like a little thing, you know, an explanation he wrote about himself. you can get that oil and gas journal. and it was said that mr. de mohrenschildt is an internationally know specialist in oil, a consultant to at least six different governments and so on. and there was--all kind of countries were there, i don't know which ones but, of course, yugoslavia was mentioned there. and he tells about his trip to yugoslavia and he told everybody then after--when he came back from yugoslavia he was called to the state department to give his opinion on the state of affairs in yugoslavia--"and i gave quite a lecture there to those boys there in the state department. they all sat down and listened to me." you know, that kind of talk. so, then he was in ghana and i heard he was a second time in ghana and a second time in yugoslavia--but i didn't hear it from him. i just heard that as a rumor. and then when he was in yugoslavia, he also made a trip to sweden, after yugoslavia, and from sweden he went to poland, to warsaw. and, you know, in warsaw he went to high school and he had a lot of friends and relatives--so he said he stayed there for a week, and---- mr. jenner. when was this? when did this take place? mr. voshinin. in poland, i think was , because he was in , , he was in yugoslavia and after yugoslavia i think he went to sweden and from sweden he went to warsaw to see relatives. he has cousins there. he said it was very difficult for him because to get even the permission of the american government to go there and visit poland, but he finally got it, and the polish visa he finally got that. and he went to see his relatives and friends for a week. and he said that warsaw made on him a very sad impression because he said it was much more cheerful city before the war and he used to live there. and, besides that, he made a lot of travels which we don't know. of course, one trip was his famous trip when he went by foot to panama city. mr. jenner. fix the time of that, please? mr. voshinin. that was , . mr. jenner. was that at about the time of the cuban invasion or the preparations for the cuban invasion? mr. voshinin. i don't know. no. cuban invasion was much later. you mean our cuban invasion? mr. jenner. i don't want to say it was our cuban invasion--but there was an invasion of cuba. mr. voshinin. well, i take that from the record. mr. jenner. was it about this time? mr. voshinin. no, that was before that time, i would say, because it was in . we don't know when they left because we were not on speaking terms at that time. mr. jenner. had there come about a break in friendship with de mohrenschildt? mr. voshinin. yes; but that was about the time when they left on their trip. mr. jenner. they were supposed to do what? mr. voshinin. to go by foot from torreon on to panama city. this is a city near the american border there and, as we were explained later by them, they went to torreon. they have a lot of friends on the border, you know. there is particularly a very rich man there who is american married with a mexican girl--a very rich man living near eagle pass. mr. jenner. do you recall his name? mr. voshinin. tito harper, i think. mr. jenner. harper? tito harper? mr. voshinin. yeah; i think so. you can check it with my wife. i never met him but i met his wife. they're very nice people, very rich people, big businessman there on the border. they have, you know, business on both sides of the border, and they are big friends of george. and, from there, he went to torreon--i don't know why torreon--and i understand that from there they started by foot to cross old mexico, guatemala, san salvador, and all the countries throughout by foot--having a mule and on the mule they had their, you know, their belongings, and a little mule and a little dog, and the mule rode the dog--i mean, the dog rode the mule--and that way they traveled, you know, badly dressed, through all those countries for more than a year. in order not to be killed, you know, they dressed very badly because it's dangerous. you know this already. they didn't go along the main highways, they went through the back passes, you know, through all the hills. and they made a movie on their whole travel, which i saw. and, for example, they climbed the volcano which was in action up to the top--which was erupting. they made a movie of her standing from the lava flow as from here to the door (indicating a few feet.) and he made the movie--it's real exciting--a colored movie and that red lava flowing--you know, these people are very adventurous and, of course, they enjoy doing things like that. i wouldn't climb it. and, so, they finally came to panama city. and then from panama city they flew to haiti where george had a very close friend--also a very rich man there of russian background on haiti. mr. jenner. did he mention his name? mr. voshinin. he's dead now. mr. jenner. he's dead? did he mention his name? mr. voshinin. yes, he was--i'm bad on names. his first name was michel--which is michael, of course, and what the second name is, i don't know--brightman. he was a very old man who was a local businessman on haiti, and he died since. mr. jenner. all right. mr. voshinin. and as antireligious as they both were, they came to church and ordered a church service for brightman. that was the only time she was in the church--because she's more antireligious than he is. mr. jenner. now, when you say "she," you mean mrs. de mohrenschildt? mr. voshinin. mrs. de mohrenschildt--yes. because he's not religious, not believing in god, but he's not fighting it. but she---- mr. jenner. he's not antagonistic to religion but she is? mr. voshinin. she is. yeah. but the only time she came--and she cried in the church. mr. jenner. now, which church is this? here in dallas or in haiti? mr. voshinin. here. mr. jenner. i see. mr. voshinin. when they came back, you see, from there, brightman died after--pretty soon, and they came to the church--which puzzled our pastor very much, father royster--and they asked for a church service. mr. jenner. they asked to have a mass said for the deceased mr. brightman? mr. voshinin. yeah. so, after that, when he came already he said he would like to look for another assignment. mr. jenner. excuse me. was there anything said when they came back, or reports that when they were in guatemala that they occupied a home there of some people, i think, from arizona--hilton or tilton? mr. voshinin. no--not that i know of. mr. jenner. or a name of that character? and they stayed in guatemala while the cuban refugees were being trained? mr. voshinin. no; i didn't hear about that. mr. jenner. you didn't? all right. mr. voshinin. you see, they didn't write us from their trip. mr. jenner. all right. mr. voshinin. what we heard from their trip, we heard actually from mr. and mrs. ballen. mr. jenner. [spelling] b-a-l-l-e-n--sam ballen? mr. voshinin. yeah. mr. jenner. sam ballen is a friend of theirs? mr. voshinin. sam ballen was then a friend of theirs and sam ballen was a friend of the boss, mr. rogatz, my wife's boss. that's how we came to know mr. ballen, through mr. rogatz. mr. ballen was there almost every day in rogatz' office. mr. jenner. but ballen was a particular friend of de mohrenschildt; is that correct? mr. voshinin. yes; i would say so. ballen had some kind of admiration of george--which i can't share too well. i think george is a very interesting fellow, i enjoyed talking with him--taking, of course, or percent off of what he says. but still the rest of it was always interesting because, you know, a man who travels, always travels, always tells something interesting about the country. and george had a certain talent of observation. you know, he is writing a book about his travels to panama and he has it written day by day; and now he wants to sell this book. he read us a few pages from that book. mr. davis. is that george bouhe? mr. voshinin. no; george de mohrenschildt. george bouhe is an unusually dumb person. and then he finally got this haiti assignment, of course. mr. jenner. and he left dallas for the haiti assignment when? mr. voshinin. well, somewhere in the spring last year. mr. jenner. ? mr. voshinin. yeah. mr. jenner. what did he tell you about that assignment, if he told you anything? mr. voshinin. well, he showed us a newspaper again. mr. jenner. what newspaper? mr. voshinin. from haiti. mr. jenner. and to what effect was the article in the paper? mr. voshinin. it was more than a page. mr. jenner. more than a page? mr. voshinin. it may--it was more than a page and it was the official newspaper of the government of haiti--which was a contract between the government of haiti and george de mohrenschildt co., inc.--not george de mohrenschildt himself--to make a magnetic survey of haiti for the sum of--i don't remember exactly--about $ , ; in which it said that mr. de mohrenschildt's company will, according to specification, make a magnetic survey and also work on discoveries of minerals--oil and other minerals. mr. jenner. in haiti? mr. voshinin. for the country of haiti--and i think the contract is for years. i also saw another newspaper, which she showed to everybody--mrs. de mohrenschildt--in which it was said that a contract was signed between our country and mr. de mohrenschildt's company and mr. de mohrenschildt is an american businessman who is just visiting now our country with his wonderful wife. and she liked that, of course. and it was few more words written about how wonderful she was--so she told--showed it to everybody. well, that's only human--"they say i'm a wonderful woman!" mr. jenner. these two newspaper accounts were shown to you by the de mohrenschildts? mr. voshinin. that's right. mr. jenner. while they were here in dallas before they left for haiti? mr. voshinin. no; they were in haiti before they finally left there. it was on a short trip to sign the contract. mr. jenner. they took at least one or more short trips to haiti---- mr. voshinin. yes. mr. jenner. until they had these contracts signed? mr. voshinin. yes. mr. jenner. and then they left permanently for years? mr. voshinin. yeah. mr. jenner. and that was in the spring of , that they left? mr. voshinin. uh-huh. mr. jenner. in that interim period preceding their leaving is when you saw the newspaper account---- mr. voshinin. yeah. mr. jenner. printed in the haiti paper? mr. voshinin. yeah--in french. mr. jenner. in french? mr. voshinin. yeah. mr. jenner. which you and your wife, and others in this community we've been talking about, saw? mr. voshinin. yes. mr. jenner. all right. mr. voshinin. well--after they left, that's it. mr. jenner. that's it. all right. mr. voshinin. and since then, we have received, i think, a short card from them and the christmas greeting--that was all. mr. jenner. that's about all? mr. voshinin. that's about all. mr. jenner. all right. now, when they made the trip from the united states-mexican border to panama, was there anything said to you by them, or was it the reputation in the area, about something about their meeting mikoyan when they were on that trip? mr. voshinin. oh, this was before that trip. mr. jenner. it was? tell us about that, please. mr. voshinin. well, they made a trip before that trip by foot--they made a trip to mexico city and back, just a short trip. mr. jenner. that was by more conventional means of transportation? mr. voshinin. yes; yes. that was either by car or by plane. i don't know. i think they mostly traveled by car. i know that they went to new york and they came back from new york and then went to mexico city and then came back to dallas. and we heard--i don't know from whom we heard--that they met mikoyan. i imagine we heard that from the ballens. i think--i imagine so. but then i asked her about that, because i didn't like it, you know. mr. jenner. you didn't like the fact that they had met mikoyan? mr. voshinin. yeah. i wouldn't meet mikoyan--being a top communist--mr. mikoyan is a top communist and a butcher of the stalin times. so, whatever he talks now, i wouldn't meet him anyhow. mr. jenner. in other words, you wouldn't have anything to do with mikoyan? mr. voshinin. no, sir; so, i asked her what is the whole story about? and she told me that it was just meant as a joke--namely that at that time there was a soviet exhibition of some kind---- mr. jenner. in mexico city. mr. voshinin. in mexico city. and that's why mikoyan was present there. and one day--and she said mikoyan was always guarded by mexican security and soviet security--and it was one moment he was televised--you know, when he was televised--she just jumped out of the crowd through the security men, you know, and said, "hello, hello, mr. mikoyan. what are you doing?" and she said, "he was terribly embarrassed and afraid perhaps i'll kill him." but, so, he said, "who are you?" and she said, "i'm a russian living in america." and he asked, "what you want?" and she said then the security agent came and asked her to leave--and she left. so, she says that's all that it was--she said. mr. jenner. all right. mr. voshinin. because, you know, i wanted to make sure of what the thing is about. mr. jenner. you wanted to know? mr. voshinin. yeah. i wanted to know from her--because if she would go, you know, make some deals with mikoyan, then i wouldn't like to talk with her at all. mr. jenner. yes. mr. voshinin. but a joke--well de mohrenschildt and his wife--they are peculiar people, always doing something which nobody else does. mr. jenner. were they unconventional people? mr. voshinin. they are the most unconventional people i ever have seen. mr. jenner. are they unconventional in dress as well as in habits and things they do? mr. voshinin. oh, yes; oh, yes. mr. jenner. tell us a little about the unconventionality of dress. mr. voshinin. well, for example, she always goes around in trousers, a very tight trouser, with some kind of a tight bosom top, you know, trying to imitate, you know, -year teenager girls, you know. and he goes out very often without a tie or open breast--completely open breast. and he may drop in somebody's party in this state--and without shoes, you know. he may do things like that. another time, you may see him perfectly dressed. mr. jenner. he's unpredictable? mr. voshinin. he is absolutely unpredictable--and i think even he knows he's unpredictable, because i understand he even had a psychiatrist to whom he went. my wife told me about that. mr. jenner. from all this, do you have an impression of the de mohrenschildts--either one of them--as to their possible connection with any communist or agencies, party, or what not? or do you think they are just extraordinarily unconventional? in other words, do you think it's deeper than the lack of conventionality? mr. voshinin. it may be; it may not be. i'm not--you know, now all of us are looking back and trying to talk it over and find one way or the other. this is a thing which, you know, is discussed at all times. mr. jenner. you're rationalizing at the moment? mr. voshinin. we are rationalizing--all of us--at that moment. of course, we do not have any proof whatever one way or the other. i can tell you what she told us. mr. jenner. all right. mr. voshinin. she told us that her first husband was a former communist. mr. jenner. her first husband was the---- mr. voshinin. bogoiavlensky. mr. jenner. yes. who is now in a mental institution in california? mr. voshinin. that's right. mr. jenner. and that he was a communist? mr. voshinin. yes; in his young days. mr. jenner. well, when you say "communist"--an active member of the communist party? mr. voshinin. i think of the communist youth organization. because it was not in soviet russia; it was in china. mr. jenner. yes. mr. voshinin. but of some kind--i don't know what the official name of the organization may be--but it was some kind of communist youth organization. so she said when she married him that the situation what it was and they did not want to stay in china and they debated the question of whether to go to soviet russia or to go to united states. and she said that it's her influence was to break up--that he break up all his ties with the communists. and come to the united states. mr. jenner. that was her desire? mr. voshinin. she said that was her desire. and she said that's what her first husband did--that they broke off with the communists and come over to the united states. and she said, "since then, neither my husband or me have anything to do with the communist party." that's her story. mr. jenner. yes. mr. voshinin. on the other hand, she was always praising the chinese communist regime--because she was saying that they do a lot of good developing her beloved native country. mr. jenner. china? mr. voshinin. china. when she said--mentioned that in my presence, i said, "this is pure communist propaganda. you should know better than tell that." on this she repeated very, you know angrily, she say, "you should not tell me that i spread communist propaganda--because they shot my father." that's what she said. but that argument of whether the communists do anything positive for china or not was, you know, coming back and back. mr. jenner. repeated? mr. voshinin. repeatedly when we met. and sometimes, especially my wife and her were so angry with each other that we wouldn't talk with them, you know, for several months. but somehow you meet these people again somewhere in the same social circle, then you talk to them again. mr. jenner. there was a violent difference of opinion between your wife and mrs. de mohrenschildt on this subject? mr. voshinin. on this subject. but where the russian communists are concerned, she always said that they are too nationalistic for her. she doesn't like--she didn't like that. mr. jenner. mrs. de mohrenschildt? mr. voshinin. mrs. de mohrenschildt didn't like that. she said, "i don't like anything about russia." she didn't like russian music, she wouldn't stand a record in russian language, or even anybody, you know, whistling a russian tune. she would get so angry i don't know what. and she would say, "i am against nationalism of any kind. i am for the world government." she was very much for the world government, you know, and things like that--international institutions and--uh; but, on the other hand, when you start, you know, pressing her against the wall, you say, "well, stop that. that's kind of communistic talk,"--she would immediately bring into the thing that "they killed my poor father. i just want to be objective, you know, and say what's bad, what's good." and she said, "you are all one-sided reactionaries," and so on, and "what do you think?" "i would praise the killers of my father?" and so on. "i just want to be objective." well, you know, i don't like to argue with, you know, too much with women; so i just stay away from that argument. but my wife will probably tell you. mr. jenner. all right. now, did you become acquainted at any time---- mr. voshinin. may i say something in addition? mr. jenner. yes. mr. voshinin. because that's what i said about her. what his concern--i never heard about him praising chinese or russian communists but he was praising the yugoslav communists. he was there and he came there and he was very enthusiastic about what the wonderful things they are doing. you know, i lived in yugoslavia myself and i tried to explain him that this country was pretty good country before and there was nothing just to save it from. mr. jenner. yes. mr. voshinin. but, of course, he didn't see it and he was very enthusiastic and--about mountains and so on. i tried to persuade him they were there before, you know, that they were wonderful before--and that communists did not build them--but he would somehow always, was always enthusiastic about that. mr. jenner. about yugoslavia? mr. voshinin. about yugoslavia and the yugoslavia regime. mr. jenner. and its regime as well? mr. voshinin. its regime as well. that's true. about china, he said he doesn't know anything; he'll let his wife talk. so, anyhow, these people are, of course, leftist people. mr. jenner. the de mohrenschildts are leftists? mr. voshinin. yeah. but she much more than him. because he was, on the other hand, boasting, you know, that he never voted for a democrat. mr. jenner. he had never voted for a democrat? mr. voshinin. yeah. he was always an eisenhower man, a republican--and they argued between themselves the whole time. mr. jenner. that is mr. and mrs. de mohrenschildt? mr. voshinin. oh, yes. and the way they argued on politics among themselves--because she was somehow bitterly left, and he sometimes tried to, you know, get her be a little more objective. mr. jenner. induce her to be a little more objective? mr. voshinin. yeah. but she was always bitterly to the left. mr. jenner. did you ever meet either lee or marina oswald? mr. voshinin. no, sir; thank god! mr. jenner. did a time come when you heard about lee or marina oswald? mr. voshinin. yes. mr. jenner. tell us the circumstances. mr. voshinin. i read in the newspaper, dallas herald, about them. mr. jenner. when? mr. voshinin. oh, when they came to this country. there was a short article about an american defector to the communists, that he finally came back with a russian wife. mr. jenner. that was in june of --just to orient you. you saw that item in the newspaper? mr. voshinin. yes. mr. jenner. was it a subject of discussion in the community among the people you've told us about? mr. voshinin. no; not in the beginning. except that we heard--we visited mr. and mrs. clark. mr. jenner. is that mr. and mrs. max clark? mr. voshinin. that's right. mr. jenner. an attorney in fort worth? mr. voshinin. in fort worth. and she is of russian descent, as you know; and they told us that they met this couple which came from soviet russia and they didn't like them. and they said he was very unpleasant and bitter fellow--and they wouldn't like to see him again--something like that. so, we decided already there that we wouldn't like to meet them either, you know--and especially, you know, you don't like any kind of defector, you know, or any kind of unpleasant, "bummish" people, you know. that's a dallas expression. that's polite for bum--as he was described to us. he--oswald. so, later, we heard that mr. bouhe, of course, in lack of other prospects for help, started helping the oswald family. but as far as our relations with bouhe nowadays, already for many years, are just very, very occasional; we had no direct contact with him except we really need something, you know, an address or some information of that kind. so, bouhe wouldn't bring them to us. he knows that--better than bringing to us anybody. but, as i understand, the de mohrenschildts met with the oswalds and the de mohrenschildts told us that there are two poor, very poor and young people here, mr. and mrs. oswald, and they need help and she has a toothache and they are bringing her to the dentist, and so on--they don't have a penny and nobody gives them a job, and things like that. and "would you like to meet them?" well, after reading, you know, what we read and after hearing from clarks, who these people are, i say, "no, george; i don't like to meet him." and my wife said, "oh, no; we don't like to meet with that kind of people." so, i said that very insistently--so the de mohrenschildts knew better than acquaint us. so, never we met them. of course, it could have happened, you know, if we would have just dropped in sometime. there was always a possibility of that kind. but, thank god---- mr. jenner. but it never happened? mr. voshinin. it never happened. so, we always were hearing about them from de mohrenschildts and other people but we never met them actually. mr. jenner. you had the impression, did you not--or did you--that the de mohrenschildts saw the oswalds frequently and were attempting to assist them? mr. voshinin. yes; he was--only one time he was very bitter about oswald when he beat up his wife. mr. jenner. tell us about that. mr. voshinin. well, once we saw de mohrenschildt and his wife and he said, "well, he doesn't behave like he should. what does he think he is, beating his wife?" but mrs. de mohrenschildt said, "well, don't just judge people without knowing what's behind them." she said, "you always, george, you jump to conclusions. we don't know what happened." i understand that she liked lee much more than he did. mr. jenner. that mrs. de mohrenschildt liked lee much more than george did? mr. voshinin. yes. mr. jenner. all right. this fellow de mohrenschildt, was he a type of person to provoke arguments? mr. voshinin. oh, yes; he liked that. yes; sure. mr. jenner. describe him physically. is he a handsome man? a big man? athletic? mr. voshinin. yes; he is a big, athletic man, a permanent tennis player--always played tennis and liked all kinds of sports, you know; and he would go to the ice arena there in the fair park, you know. and he devoted always a lot of time to sports---- mr. jenner. and was mrs. de mohrenschildt---- mr. voshinin. and she tried to do it, too. mr. jenner. all right. mr. voshinin. what else can i tell you? well, i know that he--the way he talks, you know, he talks for and against anything. you know, probably, about his famous lecture in the bohemian club? mr. jenner. i'll get that in a minute. did you say that he was argumentatively inclined so he would take the opposite side of any argument? mr. voshinin. yeah, he was usually taking the opposite side of whatever anybody would say. mr. jenner. yes; and was he provocative in his argumentation? mr. voshinin. yes; and i think he enjoyed it. mr. jenner. he was extreme in his argumentation? mr. voshinin. yeah; that was his famous lecture, of course, which was some kind of a thing which was talked very much in dallas about when he made a lecture in the bohemian club. the bohemian club is a group of about people--dallasites--who like to argue. and he was the soul of the whole thing. and you know probably who is in there. it's sam ballen, and l-e-v a-r-o-n-s-o-n [spelling], bill hudson--i don't know, a lot of other people i have never met. mr. jenner. were you a member of the bohemian club? mr. voshinin. no; i was not. but i was invited by george to go to the bohemian club. he will give a historical lecture. mr. jenner. you were present on that occasion? mr. voshinin. i was present on that occasion. and george discussed the question, you know, about the vlassov army. that was an army composed of russian--soviet russian prisoners of war who wanted to fight the communists. mr. jenner. what was the name of this army? mr. voshinin. vlassov [spelling] v-l-a-s-s-o-v. and he told the story of the vlassov army but, in between, he injected a lot of praise for such people like himmler. mr. jenner. heinrich himmler? mr. voshinin. heinrich himmler. he said, "after all, i came to the conclusion that himmler wasn't a bad boy at all." you know, that's typically george. mr. jenner. do you think that this was sincere or do you think that he was just attempting to provoke shock? mr. voshinin. i think he was attempting to provoke shock. especially there were, at least, three jewish people there present--sam ballen and lev aronson. i saw that lev aronson almost didn't--was, became red, terribly red in his face. i was afraid that the poor guy, you know, would have a stroke, you know. and george was looking into the face of aronson and, you know, continued praising the nazis and look what effect it has on lev, who is a close friend of george. of course, lev was terribly bitter--and i understand, after that, lev and him went to drink vodka the whole night. so, well--that's the type of person you have. mr. jenner. all right. now, mr. voshinin, i think my questioning is about concluded, but i do want to ask this general question in any event. is there anything you think factually that hasn't been brought out that occurs to you that might be of assistance to the commission in its investigation? mr. voshinin. i think so. mr. jenner. would you state it, please? mr. voshinin. i think, first of all, there are persons which you did not question and which knows de mohrenschildt, i think, much better than i do. mr. jenner. who is that? mr. voshinin. for example, mr. basil zavoico. mr. jenner. all right. now give us that full name and spell it, please? mr. voshinin. [spelling] b-a-s-i-l--that's the first name. second is z-a-v-o-i-c-o--or k-o--i don't know. and he lived in texas before and he's living now in green farms, conn., his house being called cronomere. mr. jenner. spell that, please? mr. voshinin. [spelling] c-r-o-n-o-m-e-r-e. and why i know mr. zavoico because his wife lived in yugoslavia before the war and me and my wife we were close friends with her. and i think that mr. zavoico knows george de mohrenschildt many years before we did, and he once even warned us against him. mr. jenner. warned you against de mohrenschildt? mr. voshinin. yes; he said, "don't be too close with de mohrenschildt," he said, "because, who knows what he is?" he says, "he sometimes talks so much to the left, i'm not sure what he is." and i think that he knows a lot about his life before the time we came here. i think in that time there will be a lot of things to your interest. i don't know whether you questioned another person--it's mr. paul raigorodsky. mr. jenner. you've mentioned him before--at the first of this deposition? mr. voshinin. yes; because paul raigorodsky is the first russian immigrant that--whoever came to dallas. and he knows absolutely everybody and he knows these people much longer time than we did. mr. jenner. all right. mr. voshinin. and he knows george pretty closely. he also lived in the stoneleigh hotel--and still living there. mr. jenner. he is? mr. voshinin. yeah. and he saw george every day where we saw him only occasionally. a third person which i would suggest would be mrs. graff. mr. jenner. [spelling] g-r-a-f-f? mr. voshinin. yes; mrs. theodore graff--who worked for george as a secretary mostly in the time that george was in yugoslavia. he still was, one part of the time, maintaining his office in the republic bank, and mrs. graff worked there. and i think that mrs. graff knows a lot about de mohrenschildt's business. you see, my wife only worked there or weeks so she doesn't know much. but i understand that mrs. graff was there and she read a lot of his files, you know, sorting them and having no other things to do. especially, i think that george had written his autobiography and she has seen it. i understand she has seen it. it is some kind of a novel about himself which he wanted to sell. then, i think you should also question a mrs. leslie and miss leslie who know him. mrs. leslie and her stepdaughter, miss leslie. mr. jenner. are they residents of dallas? mr. voshinin. they are residents of dallas. yeah. mrs. graff is now living in birmingham--you know, near detroit. mr. jenner. oh, yes; i know. it's a suburb of detroit. my daughter attended school in birmingham. mr. voshinin. mrs. graff is from connecticut otherwise, but she was here with her husband. he was working here in republic bank--and that's where george's office was. she was at one time, you know, his secretary--part-time, i think. mr. jenner. where do mrs. leslie and miss leslie live? mr. voshinin. mrs. leslie and miss leslie on hanover. mr. jenner. hanover street? mr. voshinin. yes; hanover street. mr. jenner. here in dallas? mr. voshinin. yes; they are russian. mr. jenner. they are? mr. voshinin. but miss leslie's father was of british descent--but his wife was russian. and i think these people, they don't know much about the de mohrenschildts, but it's also from the same circle, you know, and all that. mr. jenner. they may know something about the oswalds, too? mr. voshinin. i don't know. i don't know one way or the other. mr. jenner. but they moved in this circle that you've described? mr. voshinin. they moved in that circle. now, there is one thing which always strikes me peculiar--i just talked last night with my wife about that. the last years, you know, the de mohrenschildts were going to houston about every weeks, and de mohrenschildt was always saying, "i have to go to houston on business." and he would say--of course, you don't ask people, you know. george didn't like to talk about what his business is you know. never told anybody about the details and nobody, of course, asked him. and he would say, "you know, i have to go--you know, all my business goes through houston." on the other hand, he would say he was, you know, getting his jobs through a percenter in washington--and here he was always going to houston, like reporting to somebody; every or weeks, he was always going to houston. and as far as me and my wife heard about his business, he has no oil interest there or no business there whatsoever. but as far as he was always interested only in foreign assignments, why should he go to houston? in other words, even before, you know, the late president was killed, you know, we were once talking this with my wife and wondering--what in the hell is he doing in houston? you don't get foreign assignments through houston--not that we know about, but always he was going to houston. and, i don't know, he never mentioned to who he goes to houston. but, it may be possible that i can give you a name of a russian professor in houston who may know--may not know but may know--who knows something because professor jitkoff---- mr. jenner. spell it, please. mr. voshinin. [spelling] j-i-t-k-o-f-f. mr. jenner. and at what institution is he a professor? mr. voshinin. rice institute. the head of the department of the rice institute. mr. jenner. what department? mr. voshinin. the russian department. he can't stand george de mohrenschildt. and i know about de mohrenschildt being in houston--i know, that, too, from professor jitkoff, which is a very, very respectable family man, a very respectable anti-communist. as anti-communist as could be, you know. and they told us several times that george and jeanne dropped in--which is not her name. her name is eugenia. but, you know she's french. that's her baptized name, you see. but they may know perhaps with whom they are associated in houston. there is a vague possibility of that--because that always sounded peculiar to us, that houston trips. well, i think these people they live on locke lane [spelling] l-o-c-k-e--in houston. mr. jenner. well, we can reach him if he is a professor at rice institute. mr. voshinin. yeah. and they knew the de mohrenschildts, of course, before we ever came here. mr. jenner. anything else occur to you? mr. voshinin. well, i also heard from her that she wanted to sell her fashions to the soviets. and that they went to new york to the soviet consulate and she was asking whether they can sell any fashions to them--but, as i understand, they say they turned them down, they are not interested. and that was just before their trip to mexico city. so, there is a slight possibility--but this is just speculation on my part--that they probably tried the soviet consulate in mexico city also to sell them some fashions--though i don't know, but this is possible, you know. you know, most of the russian immigrants, like us, you know, wouldn't deal with the soviets at all. mr. jenner. you just don't want any part of them at all? mr. voshinin. we don't want any part of it. our only dealings, you know, is going there to buy dictionaries--you know, and things like that. and that we would prefer not to do in the soviet store in new york, but rather through an immigrant store who buys it from them, you know. but the de mohrenschildts they wouldn't have any hesitation, you know. mr. jenner. of going directly? mr. voshinin. of going directly to deal with all of them, you know. mr. jenner. i would like to ask you about the houston trips. did the houston trips take place during the years and , up to the time---- mr. voshinin. up to their departure. that's right. mr. jenner. up to the time the de mohrenschildts left for haiti? mr. voshinin. uh-huh. mr. jenner. and it is your distinct recollection, which we can confirm, of course, or try to, that these periodic - to -week trips--a trip every or weeks to houston, took place in and , to the time they left, and even might have been prior to ? mr. voshinin. well, yeah, they may; i don't know. mr. jenner. when did you and your wife become quite conscious of the fact that the de mohrenschildts were making periodic trips to houston? mr. voshinin. after professor jitkoff started complaining that the de mohrenschildts became a nuisance. mr. jenner. all right. and that was when? mr. voshinin. and then we started recollecting about the de mohrenschildts telling, "oh, we have to go on business to houston." so, that probably was late . mr. jenner. all right. mr. voshinin. you see, we go to houston usually two times a year to visit the jitkoffs who are dear friends of ours. mr. jenner. do you recall whether or not these trips to houston were being made in september of ? mr. voshinin. in september of , they were not here. mr. jenner. so, they weren't here then? mr. voshinin. no; they left--i don't know which month they left for haiti--but i think they left way before september. mr. jenner. all right. do you know whether either of the de mohrenschildts had been in this country since they left dallas in the spring of ? mr. voshinin. no; i don't. mr. jenner. you don't know whether they have or haven't been? mr. voshinin. i have no knowledge, no; no information about it. and i have seen, you know, christina and her husband. you know who they are--kirken. mr. jenner. spell it, please. mr. voshinin. or whatever he calls himself--that's mrs. de mohrenschildt's daughter and her husband. he calls himself kirken. k-i-r-k-e-n [phonetic]; americans call him _kirten_ [phonetic]. mr. jenner. [spelling] k-a-r-t-o-n? mr. voshinin. [spelling] k-i-r-k-e-n--or o-n--i don't know. they dropped in when they came from haiti. mr. jenner. they were here recently? mr. voshinin. they were here recently. they dropped by our house and they said they are on bad terms with the parents and he said they left--they couldn't stand that. mr. jenner. did either of them say anything about whether or not george de mohrenschildt had made any statements to the effect that the fbi was responsible for the assassination of president kennedy? mr. voshinin. oh, i heard that story; yes. mr. jenner. from whom did you hear it? and give us your recollection of it. mr. voshinin. i think that--uh--well, i heard it from my wife, to tell the truth. mr. jenner. well, i'll talk to her about that. mr. voshinin. and she heard it, i don't know, from the ballens, maybe--or maybe from the children. i don't know. i think that kirken said that george is behaving ridiculously and he said, "my father-in-law is behaving ridiculously--he talks nonsense." and he says, "we just decided to shorten our stay there because, otherwise, it would come to very unpleasant scenes." mr. jenner. he was of the opinion that these fulminations or statements by george de mohrenschildt were nonsense? mr. voshinin. sure. george talks, you know, a lot of nonsense usually about anything; but sometimes, you know, as kirken says, he says he became quite unpleasant with his nonsense and he says he couldn't stand it. and kirken and his wife are, i think, good americans. mr. jenner. yes. mr. voshinin. they are okay. mr. jenner. now, is there anything else that occurs to you that you would like to add in the record that you think might be helpful or pertinent? mr. voshinin. well, not that i know at the present time, but---- mr. jenner. if you think of anything, we're going to be back next week and the week afterwards---- mr. voshinin. could you give me a telephone or anything? mr. jenner. well, you just call the u.s. attorney's office here and somebody representing the commission will be here. either i will or some other person. so all you have to do is ask for the u.s. attorney, mr. sanders--barefoot sanders---- mr. voshinin. yeah; i know. mr. jenner. and he will know, and he will put you in touch with one of us. mr. voshinin. okay. probably my wife will recollect a lot of things. mr. jenner. now we've had some discussions off the record, is there anything we discussed off the record that i have failed to bring out that you think ought to be on the record? mr. voshinin. of what, for example? mr. jenner. is there anything we discussed that i failed then to ask you about so it would get on this transcript that the reporter is making? mr. voshinin. not that i know, unless you recall something. mr. jenner. is there anything which was stated by you---- mr. voshinin. you know de mohrenschildt has here a brother? mr. jenner. oh, yes. his brother--he's a professor, according to your information where? mr. voshinin. dartmouth. mr. jenner. at dartmouth college? mr. voshinin. yeah. i think he's perfectly okay--a very serious person. mr. jenner. anything else? mr. voshinin. well, you know his three wives--his former wives? mr. jenner. i've asked you about that. mr. voshinin. well, his first wife, i think lives in paris. mr. jenner. yes. mr. voshinin. and his second wife, i think, was a dancer or an artist of some kind; his third wife was a medical doctor and now his fourth wife. mr. jenner. and his fourth wife is his present wife, is that correct? mr. voshinin. yes. i think he has a litigation going the whole time about seeing his little daughter, who is very sick. and i think the judge forebade him to see her. that's the rumor i heard. mr. jenner. anything else? mr. voshinin. well, i don't know. you ask--perhaps you have---- mr. jenner. i have exhausted myself at the moment. these suggestions you have given me may provoke my having you come back and, if we do, i'll let you know. mr. voshinin. will you write my telephone number perhaps? or, i'm just across the street you can call me any time. mr. jenner. what we usually do is to have the secret service call you. mr. voshinin. they're in the same building--two floors higher than me. they can just call me up two stories up. mr. jenner. all right. we'll close this deposition now. you have the right, mr. voshinin, to read your testimony when it's typed up, if you wish to do so. perhaps there might be, when you read it over, something you either wish to add or something you want to modify in some fashion or other. it takes time to write these up. this young lady has been busy every minute. we would hope to have this perhaps written up during the course of the next week. if you will call in--and also talk to mr. sanders--he will know when, and when your transcript is ready it will be available to you for examination. mr. voshinin. can i take it home and read it or do i have to come here? mr. jenner. no. you may take it home only in this sense. you have the right to purchase a copy of the transcript from this young lady at whatever her usual rates are, if you want a copy. mr. voshinin. i think i would like a copy and put it with my pictures and for my records to have at home. mr. jenner. all right. you make arrangements with this young lady. mr. voshinin. my wife will make an arrangement on that. okay--and if there is any way i can help, please--i'd just tell everything i know without any hesitation. mr. jenner. well, i tried to pick your brain for everything i could think of. mr. davis. we do appreciate it--and thank you, sir. transcriber's notes: punctuation and spelling were made consistent when a predominant preference was found in this book; otherwise they were not changed. misspellings in quoted evidence not changed; misspellings that could be due to mispronunciations were not changed. some simple typographical errors were corrected. inconsistent hyphenation of compound words retained. ambiguous end-of-line hyphens retained. occasional uses of "mr." for "mrs." and of "mrs." for "mr." corrected. dubious repeated words, (e.g., "what took place by way of of conversation?") retained. several unbalanced quotation marks not remedied. occasional periods that should be question marks not changed. occasional periods that should be commas, and commas that should be periods, were changed only when they clearly had been misprinted (at the end of a paragraph or following a speaker's name in small-caps at the beginning of a line). some commas and semi-colons were printed so faintly that they appear to be periods or colons: some were found and corrected, but some almost certainly remain. the index and illustrated exhibits volumes of this series may not be available at project gutenberg. text in quotations is not indented unless it was indented in the source. page : "mrs. evans. well, she might have finally got him in" did not show "evans" in small caps to indicate she was the speaker; corrected here. page : "when did teach there?" probably is missing "you". page : "executive order no. " should be " ". page : "he likes _the_ give" was printed that way, with "the" in italics. page : "approximately hold old" should be "how". page : "section , page " may be misprint for "section ii, page " page : "mrs. bates, i am albert e. jenner" was misprinted as "mrs. bates. i am albert e. jenner" with "bates" in small-caps, followed by a period, indicating that mrs. bates was the speaker. changed here. page : "some of em he wouldn't" appears to be missing an apostrophe before "em", as "em" was slightly indented relative to the left margin. page : "special train from" probably should be "training". page : "it took years of something" was printed that way. page : "as far as you can remember" was misprinted as "fas". page : "in varna pleven" is missing a comma after "varna". page : "french woman, and he met her" was printed that way. www.history-matters.com. investigation of the assassination of president john f. kennedy hearings before the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy pursuant to executive order , an executive order creating a commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of the late president john f. kennedy and the subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and s.j. res. , th congress, a concurrent resolution conferring upon the commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas _volume_ ix united states government printing office washington, d.c. u.s. government printing office, washington: for sale in complete sets by the superintendent of documents, u.s. government printing office washington, d.c., president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy chief justice earl warren, _chairman_ senator richard b. russell senator john sherman cooper representative hale boggs representative gerald r. ford mr. allen w. dulles mr. john j. mccloy j. lee rankin, _general counsel_ _assistant counsel_ francis w. h. adams joseph a. ball david w. belin william t. coleman, jr. melvin aron eisenberg burt w. griffin leon d. hubert, jr. albert e. jenner, jr. wesley j. liebeler norman redlich w. david slawson arlen specter samuel a. stern howard p. willens[a] [a] mr. willens also acted as liaison between the commission and the department of justice. _staff members_ phillip barson edward a. conroy john hart ely alfred goldberg murray j. laulicht arthur marmor richard m. mosk john j. o'brien stuart pollak alfredda scobey charles n. shaffer, jr. biographical information on the commissioners and the staff can be found in the commission's _report_. preface the testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume ix: paul m. raigorodsky, natalie ray, thomas m. ray, samuel b. ballen, lydia dymitruk, gary e. taylor, ilya a. mamantov, dorothy gravitis, paul roderick gregory, helen leslie, george s. de mohrenschildt, jeanne de mohrenschildt and ruth hyde paine, all of whom became acquainted with lee harvey oswald and/or his wife after their return to texas in ; john joe howlett, a special agent of the u.s. secret service; michael r. paine, and raymond franklin krystinik, who became acquainted with lee harvey oswald and/or his wife after their return to texas in . contents page preface v testimony of-- paul m. raigorodsky mrs. thomas m. ray (natalie) thomas m. ray samuel b. ballen lydia dymitruk gary e. taylor ilya a. mamantov dorothy gravitis paul roderick gregory helen leslie george s. de mohrenschildt jeanne de mohrenschildt ruth hyde paine , john joe howlett michael r. paine raymond franklin krystinik exhibits introduced page commission exhibit no. de mohrenschildt exhibit no.: paine (michael) exhibit no.: paine (ruth) exhibit no.: -a -b -a raigorodsky exhibit no.: -a -b -a -a hearings before the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy testimony of paul m. raigorodsky the testimony of paul m. raigorodsky was taken at : a.m., on march , , in his office, first national bank building, dallas, tex., by mr. albert e. jenner, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. jenner. mr. raigorodsky, do you swear that in the testimony you are about to give, you will tell the truth, and nothing but the truth? mr. raigorodsky. i do. mr. jenner. miss oliver, this is paul m. raigorodsky, whose office is in the first national bank building, dallas, room , and who resides in dallas. mr. raigorodsky. at the stoneleigh hotel. mr. jenner. who resides at the stoneleigh hotel in dallas. mr. raigorodsky, i am albert e. jenner, jr., of the legal staff of the warren commission, and mr. robert t. davis, who is also present, is the assistant attorney general of the state of texas and is serving on the staff of the texas court of inquiry. the commission and the attorney general's office of texas are cooperating in their respective investigations. the commission was authorized by senate joint resolution of the u.s. congress and was then created by president lyndon b. johnson by executive order and its members appointed by him. the commission has adopted rules and regulations regarding the taking of depositions. the commission to investigate all the circumstances of the assassination of president kennedy. we have some information that you are particularly well acquainted with the overall so-called russian emigre community in dallas, and you are an old time dallasite, and while frankly we do not expect you to have any direct information as to the assassination, today, we think you do have some information that might help us with respect to--using the vernacular--cast of characters, people who touched the lives of lee harvey oswald and marina oswald, as the case might be, and as i understand it you appear voluntarily to assist us? mr. raigorodsky. oh, sure. mr. jenner. helping out in any fashion your information may assist us in that regard? mr. raigorodsky. sure. mr. jenner. i think it will be well if you, in your own words, gave us your general background, just give us your general background--when you came to texas and in general what your business experience has been. mr. raigorodsky. my background? mr. jenner. yes. mr. raigorodsky. well, commencing--i don't know where to start, please? mr. jenner. well, where were you born? mr. raigorodsky. i was born in russia, i lived in russia until i was, oh, let's see, i escaped from russia in , went to czechoslovakia to the university there. mr. jenner. you did what, sir? mr. raigorodsky. i went to the university there and i am escaping from russia--i fought against the bolsheviks in two different armies and then came to the united states with the help of the american red cross and the ymca. mr. jenner. when was that? mr. raigorodsky. in december--the th, . mr. jenner. ? mr. raigorodsky. . mr. jenner. how old are you, by the way? mr. raigorodsky. sixty-five--exactly. may i have this not on the record? mr. jenner. all right. (discussion between counsel jenner and the witness off the record at this point.) mr. jenner. all right, go ahead. mr. raigorodsky. well, i came to this country. mr. jenner. in ? mr. raigorodsky. yes; and they told me that for the money that they advanced for me to travel, that we only have to serve in the united states for some capacity, so when i came in, i enlisted in the air force and was sent to camp travis, texas, and then in i received an honorable discharge, and because it was i enlisted in time of war, i became full-fledged citizen in months after i arrived to this country. we still were at war with germany, the peace hadn't been signed. and then i went to the university of texas in and graduated in . mr. jenner. what degree? mr. raigorodsky. civil engineering. that's all they were giving, even though my specialty is petroleum engineering, but i took courses in different subjects. by the way, first, i speak with accent and second, i speak with colds, and you can stop me any time and i will be glad to repeat. and, that was in --then i went to work in los angeles, calif. i simultaneously married and that was in . i married ethel margaret mccaleb, whose father was with federal reserve bank--a governor or whatever you call it. mr. jenner. federal reserve bank? mr. raigorodsky. it was here in dallas under wilson in --he was appointed. at that time he was a banker and was organizing banks. then, i stayed in california for some--from until more or less--until . i worked as an engineer with e. forrest gilmore co. mr. jenner. is that a dallas concern? mr. raigorodsky. no; that was a california concern, specializing in the building of gasoline plants and refineries. then, i worked for newton process manufacturing co. and for signal oil and gas co.--just, that is, progressive--you see, it was going from one to another, getting higher pay and things like that, and then in the newton process manufacturing co. was sold out and three of us, i was at that time chief process engineer, and the other man was chief construction engineer, and the third one was chief operational engineer--we organized a company called engineering research and equipment co., and we started to build gasoline plants and refineries. then, i was sent to dallas because our business was good--i was sent to dallas. mr. jenner. your business was growing? mr. raigorodsky. oh, yes; growing. i was sent to dallas and i organized an office here. then, we moved the company from dallas and made the los angeles office a branch office. then, i went to tulsa and opened an office of our company there, and that way we were building lots of plants in louisiana, in texas, in oklahoma. then, i sold out my third in . it was a good time to sell out, and i organized the petroleum engineering co., which company i have had ever since, until just now--it is inoperative. then, i continued to--i opened an office in houston and continued to build gasoline plants and refineries under the name of petroleum engineering co. and built about of them all over the world and in the united states--lots of them--even in russia, though i never went there, we had a protocol (i believe no. ), under which we were supposed to have given them some refineries and gasoline plants--you know the "chickens and the eggs" situation. the fact is i had an order from the treasury department and one of them was sunk. maybe this should be off the record? (discussion between counsel jenner and the witness off the record at this point.) mr. raigorodsky. let's see, now, pearl harbor was in ? mr. jenner. ; december of . mr. raigorodsky. ? mr. davis. . mr. jenner. december th. mr. davis. the war started in . mr. raigorodsky. yes. mr. jenner. the germans invaded poland in september . mr. raigorodsky. already then we had the war production board, though to begin with it was the defense board, and then war production board, but i was asked to come to washington. now, let's see, which year was it? probably --before the war. mr. jenner. before the war with japan, you mean? mr. raigorodsky. before pearl harbor. mr. jenner. all right. mr. raigorodsky. i was asked to come to washington to organize the department of natural gas and natural gasoline industries for the united states, which i did, and then i had to open--i worked under degolyer. i organized the department from nothing until i had five offices. we had districts in california and tulsa and chicago, houston and new york, and then in i resigned, and in the meantime i got ulcer, you know, working like you do, until : nights, so in i resigned and came back to my business. mr. jenner. here in dallas? mr. raigorodsky. no, in houston. at that time i officed in houston. by the way, while i was building plants for others, i also built plants for myself for the production of motor fuel, l.p.g. and other pipeline products, and the first plant was built in --the glen rose gasoline co. the second one was built in --the claiborne gasoline co. then, i lived in houston until about or and i got sick with my back. you know, i have a very bad back. they wanted to operate on me there but jake hamon here, a friend of mine, told me that he wouldn't speak to me unless i come to dallas, so believe or not, they brought me to dallas. that's very interesting what i am going to tell you--in an ambulance from houston--and there was a dr. paul williams--he told me that without operation he would put me on my feet. i never went back to houston, even to close my apartment or to close my office, but i moved my apartment and my offices here to dallas and i offered people that worked with me, that i would pay them for whatever loss they had, because in selling their houses and moving here, lock, stock and barrel, i never went back. i was so mad, and i have lived here ever since with one exception. i believe it was in --in i was asked by--you know general anderson, by any chance? mr. jenner. no. mr. raigorodsky. he was what we call--there was an organization in europe called sre, special representatives to europe. there was an ambassador draper at the head of it, and ambassador anderson is a deputy, and in ambassador anderson asked me to come to europe and help them with production, so i went to europe to improve the production of tanks, planes, ammunition, et cetera for all the nato countries. i was deputy director of production. now, i think i was getting along all right and again i got sick in my neck this time, so they flew me--they flew me to johns hopkins and found out that i had bad neck. by the way, i'm not supposed to have this, but here is my card. (handed instrument to counsel jenner.) i left in such a hurry, they flew me under such pain, that i didn't return anything, and i had to start to destroy most of the things, and i didn't destroy this one. i stayed there for several months and then i came back here and i have been here ever since, living here, going to different places, going to europe and i made trips to europe, tahiti, jamaica, and finally bought a plantation in jamaica together with some other friends here and we organized a club called tryall, t-r-y-a-l-l [spelling] golf club, and i go there every year now. that's about all. my wife divorced me in for the primary reason that i wouldn't retire. i have two daughters, one is mrs. harry bridges. that has nothing to do with the---- mr. jenner. with the longshoremen? mr. raigorodsky. that has nothing to do with the longshoremen. and off the record now. (discussion between counsel jenner and the witness off the record.) mr. raigorodsky. in fact, i just came from the wedding. that's the second marriage. then, i have another daughter--maybe you know my son-in-law, howard norris? mr. davis. where is he--in washington? mr. raigorodsky. howard lee norris, he graduated, i think, in or . mr. davis. no, i don't think so. what business is he in? mr. raigorodsky. lawyer of the university of texas. mr. davis. no, i don't think so. mr. raigorodsky. i am very proud of that. that's my child. (at this point the witness exhibited wedding pictures to counsel jenner.) mr. jenner. this is your daughter on the left? mr. raigorodsky. yes. and, i will answer anything else you want to now. mr. jenner. all right. while living in the dallas area, and i listened to your splendid career, i assume that--and if this assumption is wrong, please correct me--that the people of russian descent who came into this area of texas would tend to seek your advice or assistance, that you in turn voluntarily, on your own part, had an interest in those people in the community and that in any event you became acquainted with a good many people from europe who settled in this general area--in the dallas metropolitan area and even up into houston? mr. raigorodsky. yes--louise, will you get me my church file? (addressing his secretary, mrs. louise meek.) mr. jenner. will you be good enough to tell me first, and mr. davis, in general of the usual--if there is a usual pattern of someone coming in here? how they become acquainted? what is the community of people of russian descent, and i do want to tell you in advance that the thought i have in mind in this connection is trying to follow the oswalds. mr. raigorodsky. that's right. mr. jenner. what would be the common manner and fashion in which the oswalds would become acquainted, or others would become acquainted with them, and before you get to that, that's kind of a specific, i want you to give me from your fund of knowledge and your interests--tell me what your interests have been, what the expected pattern would be of people coming--like marina oswald, for example, into this community? let's not make it marina oswald--i don't want to get into a specific, but let's take a hypothetical couple? mr. raigorodsky. all right. i can just summarize what happened in the many years that i have been both in houston and in dallas. there are methods of, i would say, of immigration into the communities in dallas of the russians i'm talking about. one is via friendship, acquaintanceship somewhere in europe or in china or somewhere else, but with different russians and the order by the tolstoy foundation--you are acquainted with the tolstoy fund? mr. jenner. i think for the purposes of the record, since the reader may not be acquainted with it, that you might help a little bit on the tolstoy foundation. mr. raigorodsky. well, miss alexandra tolstoy is a daughter of our great novelist, leo tolstoy, and i guess you know him, and she came to this country and she organized a tolstoy foundation, which takes care of russian refugees throughout the world wherever they may be. they process them, which means that they know all about them before they come into here through their own organization or your different organizations. like, you have a church in the united states--you have a church organization or all kinds of benevolent organizations that want to help refugees and they don't know who to help so they go to the tolstoy foundation and therefore the tolstoy foundation is able to place many, many russians in this country, not only in this country but--i am on the board of directors of the tolstoy foundation--but also in european countries. sometimes they cannot bring them to the united states, not enough money perhaps. now, anybody who comes to the tolstoy foundation, you know right off of the bat they have been checked, rechecked and double checked. there is no question about them. i mean, that's the no. stamp. mr. jenner. that's the no. stamp of an approval or of their genuineness? mr. raigorodsky. of approval--in fact, the u.s. government recognized that and has been up until about a year or two ago giving the tolstoy foundation as much as $ , a year subsidy for this kind of work. now, of the other russians that come here, as i said, they come in through acquaintanceship--most of them. mr. jenner. they come because of prior acquaintanceship? mr. raigorodsky. with some. mr. jenner. with some people who are here? mr. raigorodsky. that's right--correspondence you see. like we have in houston--we had a bunch of people coming from serbia, you know, yugoslavia--the few we have that left russia and went to yugoslavia and then they had to escape yugoslavia, and there was quite a russian colony there and some of them drifted to the united states and settled in houston, and of course they start correspondence and working and lots of other people came to houston and to dallas through that channel. mr. jenner. they followed? mr. raigorodsky. then, there is a small bunch of russians that appear from nowhere. i mean, they don't come with any approval from tolstoy foundation or do they come through the acquaintanceship of people here. they just drift and there's no place, believe me, in the world where you cannot find one russian. now, i would like this off the record. mr. jenner. all right. off the record. (discussion between counsel jenner and the witness off the record at this point.) mr. jenner. all right. now, let's have this on the record. mr. raigorodsky. now, because of my--i always believe that even though i am, myself, not much of a churchgoing man, but i believe that the only way to unite russians, and i think they should be united in this country, was through a church, so, for many years we had a church in texas--at galveston--but that church--we didn't like because the serbian priest, they were coming over there. we couldn't figure it out, whether they were one side of the fence or the other. mr. jenner. one side of what fence or the other? mr. raigorodsky. well, the only fence i know of is between the communism and the anticommunism. mr. jenner. all right. you are on the anticommunistic side of the fence? mr. raigorodsky. oh; of course. mr. jenner. i want that to appear on record is why i asked. mr. raigorodsky. oh, yes; i have been all my life. so, let's see, maybe in or thereabouts--i have donated quite a bit of money to the russian colony in houston there with the understanding that if they would secure at least percent of additional money from the rest of the people of the russian colony, that they buy or build a church there, which they did. mr. jenner. what religion is that--the name of the church? mr. raigorodsky. russian--greek orthodox. you may call it also eastern greek orthodox. it's the same religion as greek catholics have with two main differences--one is the language in which the service is performed is the old slavic languages against greek, and then, of course, we have our own patriarch at the head of our own church. mr. jenner. in houston? mr. raigorodsky. oh, no, no; we have in new york--it's metropolitan anastasia, who is the head of our church of this country. mr. jenner. who was the pastor over in houston? mr. raigorodsky. well, i will come to that. mr. jenner. all right. mr. raigorodsky. then, when we got to--when i came to dallas we had father royster here of the church, i mean, he is a convert. he is an american convert to the greek orthodox religion and he approached me because he wanted to build the church of st. seraphim in dallas. mr. jenner. you must be acquainted with father royster? mr. raigorodsky. he knows me very well, but anyhow, here it is about the church here---- mr. jenner. the full name is dimitri robert royster--go right ahead. mr. raigorodsky. (handed instrument to counsel jenner.) that gives us the history of the situation here, but then we had a split here between the russians who came to this country escaping the communists or bolsheviks, at that time we called them--they called themselves the guard. mr. jenner. the original church that you helped organize, that is referred to as the old guard? mr. raigorodsky. that's right, and st. seraphim you see, because we both occupy the same premises and i was the head of both of them. mr. jenner. you were the head of both churches? mr. raigorodsky. oh, yes; i belong to both churches. in fact i belong to three churches. mr. jenner. they are different parishes in the same church, aren't they? mr. raigorodsky. no, they are entirely different churches. i would like to explain to you--you see, in this country--i'm quite sure you know--i don't know whether you would be interested in what i am going to tell you about? mr. jenner. i am primarily interested in this--from the depositions i have taken and inquiries i have made, my impression is that one of the immediate sources of obtaining acquaintanceship in the community by refugees who come here is through the church. mr. raigorodsky. that's correct. mr. jenner. st. seraphim's is one parish and then there is another one--george bouhe's folks. mr. raigorodsky. that's right. mr. jenner. or the church he is most active in, and i forget the name of that one--what is that? mr. raigorodsky. that's st. nicholas. mr. jenner. that's the st. nicholas church? mr. raigorodsky. i'm head of that one. mr. jenner. you are head of that one? mr. raigorodsky. yes. mr. jenner. and you say it is a third one? mr. raigorodsky. no, it is not a third one here--just the two. now you see, this is the thing i have to tell you then, because that is, again, leads to the same oswald situation, i believe. mr. jenner. all right. mr. raigorodsky. you see, the father royster church is not just for russians. it is for all the greek orthodox, whether they are serbians, sicilians, or lebanese--and there are lots of people that came for the same religion even though their services in their own churches is in their own language, but here they are all in the english language because of father royster's. mr. jenner. father royster preaches the sermons in english? mr. raigorodsky. oh, yes; there is no question he is an american, he was a teacher at s.m.u. until he resigned. now, i am a member of this church because it is a greek orthodox and i want to help them--that means i pay my dues and i help them with everything they need, in fact, we have a monastery there--that's the one which father royster organized of which also i helped them. now, the difference between father royster's church and bouhe's church, as you know it---- mr. jenner. st. nicholas? mr. raigorodsky. st. nicholas--so that father royster belongs to metropolitan leonty--metropolitan leonty is in new york, and if you may say so, he is a competitor of metropolitan anastasia. metropolitan leonty is the head of the american russian church. you see, before the revolution, we had a church in america, and he was the head of it. metropolitan anastasia is the head of the russians outside of russia, because he is--whether he escaped russia like all of us--therefore, all of us who escaped with him or about the same time belonged to that church. mr. jenner. i see. mr. raigorodsky. it is very simple, and as far as i am concerned it is the better method, because we know each other, we know about each other, we know which fought, which one fought against the bolsheviks--all of the so-called st. nicholas church is an old anti-communist group--period. now, the st. seraphim church can be infiltrated by anybody because nobody checks, you see, the only thing and there is no tie-in there except for the church--not that there is a tie-in because we fought against communism and because of the church. the same thing in houston, the tie-in was not only because of the church but because we fought against communism and even though we came through different grounds, some through new york, some through california, but we got there and so we have a church over there. now, i personally believe that a church is a church--as long as it is my religion. i will go to one or i will go to another one. it doesn't make any difference to me--i tried to get them together and i didn't succeed in that town. in houston--i think that is because it is only one church--it is more successful. now, i don't know it for a fact, but except as i was told by father royster that the oswalds came through fort worth originally. now, this is hearsay--that i believe they got acquainted with the people by the name of clark. mr. jenner. max clark? mr. raigorodsky. i mean, that's all hearsay--i do not know it for a fact. while she is a russian, in fact she is a first cousin of a very close friend of mine, prince sherbatoff, who lives in new york and lives in jamaica. that's where i see him occasionally. now, it is my understanding that the clarks told some of their friends--again, this is hearsay, that "here is a russian married to an american and they don't even have milk for the babies." now, that is my understanding. and so, the russians, i mean of both churches, because there are not many russians in our church as against another, started to provide them groceries, buy milk for the baby, in fact i was told that they had her fix her teeth--her teeth were absolutely, oh, it is unspeakable. mr. jenner. this would, from your observation, be a perfectly normal sort of thing that would occur in this community through the churches that you have mentioned. they are small churches, the people are well acquainted with all the parishioners, that is, acquainted with each other. they seek to help? mr. raigorodsky. absolutely. mr. jenner. they seek to help those who come from europe as refugees or otherwise? mr. raigorodsky. that's right. mr. jenner. those of russian or serbian or central european derivation? mr. raigorodsky. that's right--that's correct. mr. jenner. about when was the first you heard of hearsay or otherwise of---- mr. raigorodsky. that that happened that way? mr. jenner. no, of the oswalds at all? when did it first come to your attention that the oswalds were here in the dallas-fort worth area? mr. raigorodsky. the assassination. i am absolutely ignorant of their names--i never saw them before the assassination. mr. jenner. i appreciate that--had you heard of the oswald name? mr. raigorodsky. no, never had. mr. jenner. prior to november , ? mr. raigorodsky. no, in fact, i have heard a russian discussing those things which i tell you are hearsay with me, on a meeting--we have yearly meetings. mr. jenner. did you say yearly? mr. raigorodsky. once a year--we meet to elect officers. we meet once a year to elect the officers. mr. jenner. is this true of both st. nicholas and st. seraphim? mr. raigorodsky. it's st. nicholas. in st. seraphim i do not attend to any kind of administrative duties. i am just a parishioner, now, because, first of all, i believe that sooner or later all of us will die in the other church and there will be nothing left but st. seraphim. first, because st. seraphim church is growing. well, if there are one or two of us left--it would be fine. you see, how we are at st. nicholas--we are supposed to meet once a month and we are supposed to have the priest from houston come here and perform services, but now houston doesn't have the priest and so we don't have the priest. so, our priest from galveston comes up. mr. jenner. comes up here? mr. raigorodsky. and i personally don't like him--so i wouldn't go to the services in my own church on his account. mr. jenner. yes. mr. raigorodsky. now, i went to new york and i discussed with our people from our synod, you know. mr. jenner. the synod, s-y-n-o-d (spelling)? mr. raigorodsky. and they are sending us a priest, a new priest, who will be stationed in houston and then they come here once a month, but the houston community is down to about families and this is not any better. we have about families, i would say. mr. jenner. when you say different--you mean here in dallas? mr. raigorodsky. in dallas--yes. mr. jenner. what is the name of the priest who comes up from galveston? mr. raigorodsky. let me see--maybe i have it here. (examining file.) maybe he's not from galveston--he comes from houston, but he's the one that was, you know,--can this be off the record--i just throw those notices in the waste basket because i don't want to hear from him. (discussion between counsel jenner and the witness off the record at this point.) mr. jenner. miss oliver, mr. raigorodsky has handed me a one-sheet document, single spaced, typed, entitled "some historical information concerning st. seraphim eastern orthodox church," which i have perused, and in view of the testimony of previous witnesses regarding the organization of st. seraphim's church and their attendance at its services, and our parishioners who have some contact through the church, or at least because of their acquaintance with other parishioners, and in turn with the oswalds, it would be helpful to have this statement in the record, and will you please copy it. mr. raigorodsky. you can have that--i have a photostat of it. mr. jenner. well, i want to copy it in the record. mr. raigorodsky. all right. "some historical information concerning st. seraphim eastern orthodox church." in april of , a small group of converts to the orthodox faith (rev. ilya rudolph rangel, rector of the already existing mexican orthodox church under the jurisdiction of bishop bogdan, dimitri robert royster, a subdeacon in bishop bogdan's jurisdiction, and miss dimitra royster) sought permission of their bishop to organize an english-language orthodox mission in the city of dallas. it may be stated parenthetically that the three above-mentioned persons were working, at the time of the organization of st. seraphim's, in close cooperation with st. nicholas russian orthodox church, of which father alexander chernay of houston was pastor and which held services periodically in the chapel of the sunday school building at st. matthew's episcopal cathedral. father rangel and subdeacon royster set out to find a building that would be suitable to house the activities of the projected mission. property was located at the corner of mckinney avenue ( ) and blackburn street. the sale price of the property was $ , , and since the financial resources of the organizers were limited, father rangel and subdeacon royster went to seek the aid of mr. paul raigorodsky, a member of st. nicholas' parish. mr. raigorodsky agreed to make it possible for the group to acquire a loan from the first national bank in dallas in order to purchase the property (on which there was an eight-room two-story house). the property was bought in the name of st. seraphim's church. services in english began to be held in june of . father rangel conducted occasional services--sunday vespers weekly and an early liturgy once a month. father rangel and subdeacon royster constructed an iconostas and made a number of shrines and articles, and a chapel was arranged on the first floor of the house. after a month or the members of st. nicholas' parish were invited to use the chapel, since one of their members had been so instrumental in the acquisition of the property. on november , , subdeacon royster was ordained to the priesthood by bishop bogdan and became rector of st. seraphim's church. shortly afterwards, it was agreed to transfer the title of the property at mckinney to st. nicholas' church. it was further agreed that the two groups would use the chapel, st. nicholas' church weekend per month and st. seraphim's church the rest of the time. in january of an extensive renovation program was undertaken, and both floors of the house were redecorated, sheet-rocked and painted. father hilarion madison had been ordained by bishop bogdan on october , , and had worked with father rangel as assistant pastor at the mexican church until december , when he joined the work at st. seraphim's and became assistant to father royster. for a few months joint services were held on the occasions when father alexander chernay visited dallas; that is, father dimitri and father hilarion concelebrated with father alexander. in march , bishop bogdan directed father dimitri and father hilarion to begin mission work in fort worth, taking advantage of the weekends when father alexander was in dallas, in order to extend the benefits of the missionary activity to a group of orthodox residents of that city. services were held in the chapel of st. andrew's episcopal church in downtown fort worth until the summer of . in order better to pursue its mission as an english-language parish and to attract orthodox people of all national backgrounds, st. seraphim's church decided to acquire property of its own. a house was bought at newton avenue, and a chapel, meeting room, office and kitchen were arranged in the house after considerable renovation. this building served the needs of the parish until the new church was built in march and april of . the house was then converted into a parish hall. in , an adjacent lot with its house were bought by the parish. the house is being renovated at present and will eventually be used for a rectory. in september of the parish was transferred from the jurisdiction of bishop bogdan to that of metropolitan leonty, the russian metropolia. membership in st. seraphim's parish has grown from the original to approximately souls. average attendance at the sunday liturgy has increased year by year and is now about . a sunday school with two classes is maintained. services are held regularly on wednesday, saturday, and sunday evenings, and the liturgy is celebrated on sundays and on holy days. mr. jenner. mr. raigorodsky, in that connection, this document which is entitled "some historical information concerning st. seraphim eastern orthodox church," when was that prepared? mr. raigorodsky. i have no idea because i have--let's see--the early part of this year i have asked father royster if he has anything historical about the st. seraphim, how it started and everything, or can he prepare something, and he said "no," he already had something, and i said, "all right, send me a copy of it." mr. jenner. do you understand that father royster prepared this historical summary? mr. raigorodsky. that's my understanding. mr. jenner. now, have you read this historical summary? mr. raigorodsky. oh, yes; i did. mr. jenner. and, are you familiar with the events and course of events that are recited in that -page summary? mr. raigorodsky. i am. mr. jenner. and to the best of your knowledge and information, does father royster, if he prepared it or whomever prepared it, is the recital reasonably accurate? mr. raigorodsky. well, i'll say it's reasonably accurate except it does not give the actual reason for the split of the churches. you see, here he said: "in order better to pursue its mission," as a native language parish, "and to attract orthodox people of all national backgrounds, st. seraphim's church decided to acquire property of its own." well, that's not the reason--the reason is that we couldn't get along together, you see, and there was a constant fight between the two churches. mr. jenner. and, the factions split primarily, as i understand your testimony today, over the father royster group, and i use that expression not to tag him, well, i'll say the st. nicholas church, that would possibly be better, because father royster preached in the english language. mr. raigorodsky. that's right. mr. jenner. and in the st. nicholas church or parish the services were said in what language, again? mr. raigorodsky. in the old slavic language. that's not the principal reason either. mr. jenner. then, another reason is that the organizers of the st. nicholas church were, as you have said, labeled "old guard" in the sense that they were composed primarily of those people of russian origin and other slavic origins who in europe fought---- mr. raigorodsky. either fought or escaped. mr. jenner. fought the communists or bolsheviks or escaped from their regime. mr. raigorodsky. yes--because there are lots of women and children over there, you see, they never fought against them. mr. jenner. yes; there are a lot of ladies, of course, who did not fight. mr. raigorodsky. sure. mr. jenner. and because of that common experience they tended to stay together? mr. raigorodsky. that's right--more closely knit. mr. jenner. more closely knit and they had a preference for the use of the basic language, and that group organized the st. nicholas church. mr. raigorodsky. st. nicholas was organized to begin with. mr. jenner. then, you tended to support it and you have supported it and you are more active in that church? mr. raigorodsky. sure. mr. jenner. you are more active by far, in fact, you are an officer of that group, are you not? mr. raigorodsky. yes; i am president. mr. jenner. you are president of that group, but you are a member of the other parish or the other church and you assist it financially as a parishioner? mr. raigorodsky. yes, sir. mr. jenner. is there anything else in the -page summary prepared or given to you by father royster that you would like to comment upon? mr. davis. i would like to ask--did we ever get to the real reason for the split of the church? mr. raigorodsky. i just made a statement a while ago. mr. davis. i didn't understand--what was the reason that the church was split? mr. raigorodsky. well, they just couldn't get along together. i mean, it's purely personality. you see, father royster at that time--that's the main point--father royster doesn't mean anything to you or to me, but to lots of russians it means everything. you see, father royster at that time belonged to the ukraine branch of the church. you see, he couldn't get ordained, but then he tried to, and i tried to help him to be ordained by metropolitan and anastasia, but he couldn't fulfill the requirements so he tried to get in through metropolitan leonty. he couldn't quite get in because of their requirements, but they suggested that he will be ordained by the russian ukranian church, of which father joseph bogdan, b-o-g-d-a-n [spelling] had the jurisdiction of the ukranian branch of metropolitan leonty's branch of the russian church in this country, and so, you see, and that was--now, we have to go back through the basic facts that russians and ukranians have never gotten along together, and in fact, ukranians were separative--they wanted to separate from the rest of the russians and he will have their church to become part of their parish. that was just going against the grain of every russian. now, all those things tended to create dissatisfaction and fights, i mean verbal fights, of course--no physical violence of any kind, but verbal fights, and father royster decided to pull out and he asked me if i would help him, and i said, "sure, as long as it is a greek orthodox church," and that's how it happened. you see, some of the statements--like he said, "in september of the parish was transferred from the jurisdiction of bishop bogdan to that of metropolitan leonty, the russian metropolia." well, he is russian metropolia, but it isn't finished--in this country. mr. jenner. the words "in this country" should be added there? mr. raigorodsky. yes; in the united states. i mean, those are minor, but substantially, it is correct--what he said. mr. jenner. with those explanations, miss oliver, will you please copy the historical statement into the record? the reporter. yes, sir. (the instrument referred to is set forth on pp. and of this volume.) mr. jenner. these differences of opinion, historical, religious, and otherwise, and arguments rather than facts, tend to affect also the views of an individual who is a member of st. nicholas church with respect to individuals who regularly attended st. seraphim's? mr. raigorodsky. well, it's a peculiar thing that the people, as i understand it, who helped mrs. oswald, were people from st. nicholas church. mr. jenner. largely? mr. raigorodsky. so--i don't know how that came about--perhaps she is russian. i can understand so much--she is a russian and st. nicholas is russian and st. seraphim is eastern orthodox. mr. jenner. did i understand you correctly, sir, that the parishioners, by and large, of st. nicholas are exclusively anti-communists? mr. raigorodsky. there's no question about it. mr. jenner. because of the history, there's no question about it--largely? mr. raigorodsky. largely. mr. jenner. there are other reasons, but that substantially is one major motivating force? mr. raigorodsky. that's right. mr. jenner. and while they would be interested in assisting persons who are of russian birth, who would come into this community, would they also be interested in ascertaining at least what they thought might be the political views of someone who came fresh from russia, with in turn the thought in mind that if that person or persons or family in their opinion had some affiliation with or even sympathetic to what we in america call the communists in control of russia, that these people in st. nicholas would have an aversion to them? mr. raigorodsky. correct. you see, he asked the question you are getting to--that is the first time i heard she was russian--they told me they were interrogated by different branches of the government and that is the first time they told me that they know of marina oswald, how they helped her and everything else and i asked them--"how did it happen?" now, she went to the church to have her child christened. mr. jenner. she went to st. nicholas? mr. raigorodsky. no; st. seraphim's. mr. jenner. and that caused what? mr. raigorodsky. that caused them to think and to know, as they understood it, that she did it practically at the peril of her life. mr. jenner. she did what? mr. raigorodsky. she did it at the peril of her life---- mr. jenner. you mean they objected? mr. raigorodsky. because he told her she cannot do that, she had to sneak out with that child to be christened and since communists are atheists, they knew that she could not possibly be communists. mr. jenner. you heard afterwards that marina had had her child baptized in st. seraphim's? mr. raigorodsky. that's right. mr. jenner. and those persons then in your church, the st. nicholas church, cited that as being a fact which led them to believe that she believed in the lord and was therefore not an atheist, that it was a factor that led them in turn to believe that she was not a communist, because communists are atheists? mr. raigorodsky. that's right. mr. jenner. whereas, you accepted that as a factor to consider, but there occurred to you a countervailing consideration, which was---- mr. raigorodsky. correct--which was that the communists may have been--if it was a conspiracy, that would to me have been the best way to get into the good graces of the russian church community. mr. jenner. lead people to believe that you were a christian? mr. raigorodsky. that's right. mr. jenner. and not an atheist? mr. raigorodsky. that's right. mr. jenner. and seek by that stratagem to gain their confidence? mr. raigorodsky. that's correct. mr. jenner. so that that factor, whatever it was, had to be examined and held in abeyance so you wouldn't jump to a conclusion from that one thing? mr. raigorodsky. you see--i don't trust them in any kind of a condition or any kind of a statement that they make. it doesn't make any difference, but in fact, i know it isn't truthful--it's just like mr. gromyko lying to president kennedy sitting in his office, you know, lying just like a trooper and then knowing that it wasn't so, but he lied. i don't have to tell you all about what communists do and how they operate. mr. jenner. did there in due course come into this community a man by the name of george de mohrenschildt? mr. raigorodsky. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and you were here when he came here, were you? mr. raigorodsky. well, let's say that i met george de mohrenschildt in dallas while i was coming here, just--you know--just occasionally to see my friends, probably about, i'll say or years ago, somewhere in that neighborhood. mr. jenner. had you heard of him prior to that time? mr. raigorodsky. yes; i heard of him through jake hamon. mr. jenner. through mr. hamon? mr. raigorodsky. hamon, h-a-m-o-n [spelling]--jake. mr. jenner. who is he? mr. raigorodsky. he is an oilman friend of mine here, quite well known, and he told me there was a russian here--do i know him, and i said, "no; i hadn't heard about him." that's how i met him--at a party. mr. jenner. you are talking about george de mohrenschildt? mr. raigorodsky. yes. mr. jenner. in this -year period from that initial acquaintance to the present time, had you come to know george de mohrenschildt and acquire some knowledge of his origin and background? mr. raigorodsky. i believe so. mr. jenner. would you please recite it to us--who is he, what is his history, his marriages, the nativity of the ladies he married and some of his activities, leaving until a little bit later in the questioning the business associations or contacts you may have had with him? mr. raigorodsky. well, from what i understand, george de mohrenschildt comes from what we call by-the-baltic germans. mr. jenner. what is--by-the-baltic germans? mr. raigorodsky. the by-the-baltic germans are germans that lived by the baltic sea and they were russians or rather, russiafied germans and they were in the service of the czar for generations and generations and were considered russians. most of them were barons, you know, and i don't know whether george's family were or not, but the "de" mohrenschildt signifies that his family had a title. mr. jenner. that's the "de"? mr. raigorodsky. the "de"--yes; it signifies that. now, i understand that he has a friend or his brother is teaching, i believe, at the university of chicago. mr. jenner. is that the university of chicago or dartmouth? mr. raigorodsky. or what? mr. jenner. dartmouth, or the university of chicago? mr. raigorodsky. it might be, now, but at that time when i first learned it--he was at the university of chicago. mr. jenner. and his first name? mr. raigorodsky. i don't remember. mr. jenner. what did you say his first name was? mr. raigorodsky. i don't remember. mr. jenner. i thought you gave it to me the other day? mr. raigorodsky. no. mr. jenner. maybe i could get it from some other source? mr. raigorodsky. no--not from me. now, when i first knew george he was an engineer in charge of the operations of the rangley field in colorado. then, he quit the job and went into the business of his own, which was supposed to be a consultant petroleum engineer and oil operator. he was married, as far as i know, three times. i didn't know his first wife, but i know his daughter by the first wife. mr. jenner. what is her name? mr. raigorodsky. i don't remember; i'm sorry. mr. jenner. but you have met her? mr. raigorodsky. oh, yes; they live here at the maple terrace, which is next door to the stoneleigh hotel. the second wife was--that's where this was when he married the second time--it was to a daughter of the sharples, s-h-a-r-p-l-e-s [spelling]. mr. jenner. was her name wynne, w-y-n-n-e [spelling]? mr. raigorodsky. no; we called her something else--it will come to me--just leave that blank. they had two children, both of them were spastic. mr. jenner. was a boy and a girl? mr. raigorodsky. that's right. one of them since died. mr. jenner. the boy? mr. raigorodsky. the boy. the son is still alive, and it's my understanding that his second wife divorced and she had to pay him, as i understand it, $ , . of course, you have the records. mr. jenner. yes, sir. mr. raigorodsky. then, there were two trusts set for the children and when one of the children died, george de mohrenschildt wanted to claim the trust in his name and that was a fight which went to the courts, but at the request of some of the friends of mrs. de mohrenschildt and my friends, i called george and told him that if he pursues his suit, that his name will be mud and he can never come back to dallas. mr. jenner. how would that be enforced? you mean never come back to dallas and join this russian community? mr. raigorodsky. and be a member, because---- mr. jenner. a member of what? mr. raigorodsky. of the social group that they were here originally. you see, he took it differently when i called him. i can tell you it was a hornet's nest is what it was. anyhow, he withdrew the suit--whether i did it or for some other reason, but i think mrs. crespi can give you more information than that. mr. jenner. mrs. whom? mr. raigorodsky. mrs. crespi, c-r-e-s-p-i [spelling]. she is the one who asked me to intervene if i can. i believe i could have at that time because george owed me a little money, frankly, and he has been borrowing from me occasionally, always repaid, but it took a long time. the last time he borrowed he repaid very quickly. mr. jenner. the last time he borrowed was it a substantial amount? mr. raigorodsky. no; $ . mr. jenner. he was divorced from the sharples girl whose first name you can't recall at the moment? mr. raigorodsky. isn't that funny? mr. jenner. and he then, let's see, that was the second wife; is that correct? mr. raigorodsky. yes. mr. jenner. and he married a third time? mr. raigorodsky. a third time. mr. jenner. and is that his present wife? mr. raigorodsky. yes. mr. jenner. and who is she? mr. raigorodsky. that's a question---- mr. jenner. does the name j-h-a-n-a [spelling] or jeanne serve your recollection? mr. raigorodsky. jean--jean. mr. jenner. his present wife is named jeanne? mr. raigorodsky. yes--jeanne. mr. jenner. what do you know about her? mr. raigorodsky. well, i don't know anything about her except that she was a successful dress designer, i believe, in california, and that she had, and i may say it frankly, that she had a low opinion of our form of government. i don't know whether she is a communist, socialist, anarchist or what. mr. jenner. what are her views with respect to---- mr. raigorodsky. didi de mohrenschildt. mr. jenner. that's the second wife? mr. raigorodsky. it's didi de mohrenschildt. mr. jenner. she is the sharples girl? mr. raigorodsky. the sharples girl. mr. jenner. and did it come to your attention that his present wife was either born in china or went at a very early age, an infant age--came to china? mr. raigorodsky. i don't know anything about her except i know that she is part russian, french--something else, but you see, she never expounded her views to me about her beliefs, but she did to lots of americans, you see, and they would ask me why? what does it mean? you know, for some reason or other--and i would like this off the record. mr. jenner. all right. (at this point statement by the witness, mr. raigorodsky, to counsel jenner off the record.) mr. jenner. what is the reaction of the russian community in dallas to the de mohrenschildts, with particular reference to their political views? mr. raigorodsky. well, the russian community here, it was, you say--"and political views?" mr. jenner. the views separately of george de mohrenschildt, and then his wife, jean. mr. raigorodsky. well, would you believe me if i tell you that after all this time, i do not know the political views of george de mohrenschildt? mr. jenner. tell us about him, what kind of a person is he? he seems from some of our information to be reckless, to make nonsense at times, he appears to have traveled extensively in europe, mexico, haiti, the dominican republic; he is a man who has provoked or seems to seek to provoke others into argument by making outlandish statements. we would like to know something from you as a--if i may use the expression but in a sense of compliment--a member of the "old guard," and you have had some contact with this man for years now--what is he or what makes him tick? he had contact with the oswalds, we haven't yet talked with him, and we are seeking to get all the information we can about this man, his personality, his habits, his business interests, his contacts with you--political views even if they are stated in supposed jest, and the political views of his wife, jeanne, who is tolerant? is he just a character? mr. raigorodsky. that's a question. you see, talking about, and believe me, that's the only time--first of all, i've got george de mohrenschildt to become a member of the petroleum club. mr. jenner. what is the petroleum club? mr. raigorodsky. it is the petroleum club, dallas petroleum club. mr. jenner. did you seek to do it for him? mr. raigorodsky. no. mr. jenner. he was a man of grace at the club? mr. raigorodsky. very much so a man of grace, a man of breeding. mr. jenner. and did he begin to move in a different social circle? mr. raigorodsky. an entirely different social circle. mr. jenner. and was that a social circle of russian emigre, a certain set of russian emigre? mr. raigorodsky. no, no, that's the thing which both churches have against them. he belonged to the church, but he never sent in a donation. mr. jenner. he belonged to the church in the sense that when he felt like coming, he came, but he never supported the church financially? mr. raigorodsky. no, that's right, from that point. politically he never, and i can say honestly, not one time did he ever discuss with me any political questions or give me his views except one time when he went to take the trip--the walking trip. mr. jenner. from the border of the united states and the mexican border down to panama? mr. raigorodsky. right. mr. jenner. tell us the incident that you are about to relate? mr. raigorodsky. except one time, you see, except one time--he was elated because he met mikoyan in mexico. mr. jenner. and did he report this to you? mr. raigorodsky. you know--just trying to show what--he always brags about things--he was bragging about many things. mr. jenner. was he given to overstatements? mr. raigorodsky. very much so, and he brags about the fact that he met mr. mikoyan, and this is not for publication, and i asked him why didn't he shoot this b----d? mr. jenner. what did he say--when you said, "why didn't you shoot him?" mr. raigorodsky. he just smiled and smiled with that understanding smile, you see, as if i were taking away from his achievement. mr. jenner. was he a man of extraordinary dress or attire? mr. raigorodsky. anything but ordinary in attire. mr. jenner. he was not only provocative in his habits, but provocative in his attire in the sense of nonconforming? mr. raigorodsky. he is--he is absolutely nonconformist--that's the best definition i can give you. mr. jenner. does he speak russian? mr. raigorodsky. oh, yes; he speaks russian quite well with a by-the-baltic german accent. mr. jenner. does his wife jeanne speak russian? mr. raigorodsky. yes. mr. jenner. does she have any peculiarity of accent? mr. raigorodsky. well, i say her's would be polish, but you know, it is very hard to say. i don't think she was born in russia, i think she was born in france or somewhere, or maybe china, but george's was definitely, because he was born in russia. now, to me george--now this is again my idea---- mr. jenner. we are trying to get a background on him and we want your idea. mr. raigorodsky. i don't believe that george is a communist, because i don't think that the communists would stand for the behavior of george in the united states. i mean, that is the only thing that i can give him credit for. to them it is a religion. you see, communism is a religion to them and they lead, as we should, i understand they lead the spartan life, i mean, they are supposed to, but george led anything but the spartan life in this country. mr. jenner. did you have some business relations with him? mr. raigorodsky. i had some small stock deals with him, oil deals when he would drill a well and i would buy a certain portion of the deal, maybe one-sixteenth or something like that. he had one dry hole i can remember and one well that came in very small and nothing to brag about and he tried to get me to go with him in business with him in haiti. mr. jenner. to whom? mr. raigorodsky. to the banker--the banker--commercial de haiti. you can read that and pick up anything you want here and tell me what you want [referring to deponent's file]. he writes all the time--he was trying to get a $ , corporation set up here to do business with duvalier, the head of the haitian government in the making of hemp and they were giving him concessions and lots of acreage which you could pick up for drilling and everything else, and he was trying to get people to come here and subscribe to stock but he didn't do anything. i believe that i have reported that incident and then there are lots of russians here and some others told me about that trip of george's. mr. jenner. down through mexico? mr. raigorodsky. down through mexico, and i believe i called the fbi and told them. i said, "i don't know whether it means anything or nothing." mr. jenner. who is mr. john de menil? mr. raigorodsky. mr. john de menil is a very close friend of mine. he is the financial head of schlumberger co. and when i wouldn't go with george in the deal, he asked me to give him any suggestion as to who may be interested, so i suggested john de menil because the schlumberger co. is a worldwide organization and they deal with every country in the world--you know what i am trying to say? mr. davis. yes; i do. i am familiar with the name schlumberger. mr. raigorodsky. and that he might be interested in going in business in haiti, and at my suggestion he called him and went to see him and nothing came out of it because john de menil finally turned him down after the investigation. now, i am very sorry that in the past years i have had some correspondence with george but i didn't keep it, but then when things began to pop up and his name appeared in so many different things, i thought i better keep a file on him. mr. jenner. apparently this haitian venture was in gestation or in the works as far back as , is that what you understand? mr. raigorodsky. yes; you know, he was consultant to the yugoslav government? mr. jenner. he was a consultant to the yugoslavian government? mr. raigorodsky. he was a consultant to the yugoslavian government. in fact, he was sent to yugoslavian government with the blessing of our government, maybe--i don't know under what protocol that we were helping the yugoslavians, and he went over there but peculiarly, in order to receive the appointment he had to have recommendations of some man known in the industry, and he didn't come to me--i can say this--i don't brag, but if he came to me that would have meant something to him because i was with the government on a couple or two or three times, but instead of that he goes to jake hamon, a close friend of mine, and asked him for a recommendation on that job. jake said he would not give him a recommendation unless he consults me. that surprised me that he wouldn't ask me right off the bat, but he went around about way. what could i do? of course i said, technically on the job he is perfectly all right, i mean, he is a good engineer--good petroleum engineer. mr. jenner. and that's your opinion of him? mr. raigorodsky. oh, yes, without any question. you know, that field is quite a field--that you have to be supplied with a knowledge of underground structures and movement of the oil, and he had a good job, and as far as i know he quit the job--he was not fired. mr. jenner. are you acquainted with his reputation in this community for truth and veracity? mr. raigorodsky. well, i'll say there is no other way around this--i don't think his reputation is that of a truthful person. mr. jenner. his reputation in that respect is poor or bad? mr. raigorodsky. bad. mr. jenner. bad, and his reputation in the community as a man of morals, character, and integrity--is that bad or good? mr. raigorodsky. bad. mr. jenner. and his reputation in the community as a man of capability in the profession which he pursues? mr. raigorodsky. good. mr. jenner. for example--as a petroleum geologist? mr. raigorodsky. no; petroleum engineer--good. his knowledge of languages is good. in fact, he taught at the university of texas. i believe he taught french or spanish after he went to school there, where my daughter went, one of my daughters, and my son-in-law also went there at the same time. mr. jenner. what is his reputation in the community as being a loyal american? if he has a reputation? mr. raigorodsky. i don't think he has any reputation of that type. now, remember there are two--he is in a different social circle now, you see, than he was before with his second wife. mr. jenner. yes. mr. raigorodsky. in fact, if i'm not mistaken how he got to the oswalds was through the clarks. you see, the clarks of fort worth were his friends. mr. jenner. from a prior social circle? mr. raigorodsky. no; he met them--i don't know where he met them, but they were not in the so-called dallas social circle that he was originally in with his wife because of her being a sharples. mr. jenner. do you know of any business interests of de mohrenschildt in houston? mr. raigorodsky. in houston? mr. jenner. yes; in the last years, let's say? mr. raigorodsky. yes; he told me that he was going to see herman and george brown--they are brothers. mr. jenner. what business are they in? mr. raigorodsky. well, again, don't put this down. mr. jenner. off the record. (discussion between messrs. jenner and davis and the witness, mr. raigorodsky, off the record.) mr. jenner. now; i want this on the record. mr. raigorodsky. george has been friends with many, many influential people in many cities. mr. davis. in all of them, i imagine. mr. raigorodsky. yes. mr. jenner. is he a namedropper--is he a man who seeks to be friends of important people? mr. raigorodsky. no--he was my friend, i was his friend--he was jake hamon's friend and jake hamon was his friend. mr. davis. how often did de mohrenschildt see him? mr. raigorodsky. jake? mr. davis. no; how often did george de mohrenschildt see herman and george brown? mr. raigorodsky. i don't know, but he has been going to houston quite often. in fact, he told me that everything is settled--he is going to deal with them in that haiti situation, and then herman died. mr. jenner. do you know of any particular business that he had in houston? mr. raigorodsky. no. mr. jenner. what information do you have regarding his interests or business in houston--i take it that it came from his making statements to you? mr. raigorodsky. that's right, except in his dealing with john de menil, in which john de menil sent me the copies of the letters--you see, there is a copy from john de menil. mr. jenner. where do you have information as to whether he was required to or did make regular trips, a trip every or weeks, to houston? mr. raigorodsky. he--i can't answer that. mr. jenner. he appears to have become acquainted with a gentleman in houston by the name of andre jitkoff? mr. raigorodsky. yes; sure. mr. jenner. he is a professor at rice institute? mr. raigorodsky. that's right--he's head of the russian church in houston. mr. jenner. he is the head of the russian church in houston? mr. raigorodsky. yes; that's right--also his daughter is my--i'm a godfather to mr. jitkoff's daughter. mr. jenner. well, give me in a thumbnail sketch, something about mr. jitkoff's background. mr. raigorodsky. mr. jitkoff--he is of the "russian old guard," as you call it. mr. jenner. how old a man is he, by the way, your best guess? mr. raigorodsky. i would say around now, no, maybe he is younger--let's see, his daughter--he probably is closer--is some odd years-- . mr. jenner. he is closer to than to ? mr. raigorodsky. i believe so. mr. jenner. is he somewhere between and ? mr. raigorodsky. that's right. the first i knew of jitkoff, he was a tennis pro at the river oaks country club. mr. jenner. where--dallas or houston? mr. raigorodsky. in houston; and he retired several years ago and he is teaching russian. mr. jenner. was de mohrenschildt an athletic man? mr. raigorodsky. very much so. mr. jenner. is he interested in tennis? mr. raigorodsky. yes; very much so. mr. jenner. what about mrs. de mohrenschildt? is she an athletically inclined person? mr. raigorodsky. yes. mr. jenner. also interested in tennis? mr. raigorodsky. that's right. mr. jenner. and does each of them have an interest in any other sport to the extent of engaging in the sport itself? mr. raigorodsky. as far as i know--swimming. mr. jenner. ice skating? mr. raigorodsky. i don't remember anything about that, but they always played tennis, you know, they lived next door to me, you see, they played tennis all the time. mr. jenner. did either of them ever live in the stoneleigh hotel? mr. raigorodsky. at the maple terrace. you see, it is owned by the same people--the stoneleigh, maple, and now there's another terrace--the tower terrace. mr. jenner. are these buildings all in proximity one with the other? mr. raigorodsky. oh, yes; and they are owned by the same people, by the leo corrigan's son-in-law, jordan. mr. jenner. in addition to being an expansive person, is de mohrenschildt a generous man? mr. raigorodsky. yes; i would say he is a generous man. mr. jenner. is he the type of person who would seek, out of the goodness of his heart, to help people like the oswalds or persons in like circumstances? mr. raigorodsky. i would say he will do it because he wants to show what a grand person he is. you see, that would be my quick judgment. it would be different from the other russians, you see, because they were appalled at the fact that the baby didn't have milk. mr. jenner. that is, de mohrenschildt might not have been sincere, while the other members who were seeking to assist were genuine and sincere about it? mr. raigorodsky. correct. mr. jenner. de mohrenschildt might be trying to put on a show, for example? mr. raigorodsky. exactly. mr. jenner. and was he a man given to extreme statements in public? mr. raigorodsky. yes. even though in a joking way. maybe, like, at a big party--i'll never forget that, you see. it was for the first time i met him. it was at the brook hollow golf club before it burned down, at a big party and you know. i had some friends of mine, the jake hamons and the others, and suddenly george, you know, he always managed to do it, he always said, "there's a spy in the crowd." you know, he would say, "there's a spy in the crowd," just for the fun of it or whatever it is. so, we all started to say, "there's a spy in the crowd," and somebody asked me, "are you the spy?" and i said, "maybe," but that's the way he always did--just create some kind of maybe innocent unrest, but we didn't know how much truth there was to it. mr. jenner. and would you give us the reason for that view? mr. raigorodsky. because he's liable to do anything. mr. jenner. liable to do anything because he is eccentric. he has no control over himself, really? mr. raigorodsky. that's what it is--because of his character. mr. jenner. would you have the impression that de mohrenschildt is the type of person that might seek to induce others to do something he might hesitate to do himself? mr. raigorodsky. no; i don't think so. mr. jenner. what is your opinion as to the legitimacy of the business in which he is engaged in haiti? mr. raigorodsky. well, from the point of view of the u.s. government, it is a legitimate business to do business up until now with haiti. i think the other day--it was the first time that we granted them a loan or aid, but we wouldn't deal with duvalier, but george moved there--he is there, and moved his furniture. mr. jenner. that's so--in the spring of ? mr. raigorodsky. yes. mr. jenner. and you have had correspondence with him since? mr. raigorodsky. oh, yes. mr. jenner. you have given me a file and it is entitled "george de mohrenschildt". i have been browsing through it. it seems to relate almost exclusively to the haitian venture, and i don't see anything else in it. mr. raigorodsky. here is a letter of june that must have been left here. mr. jenner. is this june , , or ? mr. raigorodsky. it must be --yes, it is . mr. jenner. if this was june of , this was before the events of november --i gather from your first sentence of this letter that he had been in dallas? mr. raigorodsky. after this--that's right; i see it is , after this fiasco here, then he came back to dallas--which i was called on. mr. jenner. now, the "fiasco here in dallas" i take it from your testimony, was the suit brought by de mohrenschildt against his wife didi, and that suit was brought in philadelphia and it had to do with the disposition of a corpus residue of a trust established for george's son. as i recall, friends of the sharples family appealed to you, or maybe sued directly, to see what you could do to help out? mr. raigorodsky. no; friends of her family. mr. jenner. friends of her family? mr. raigorodsky. in fact, mrs. crespi, appealed to me to see what i can do. mr. jenner. who is mrs. crespi? mr. raigorodsky. mrs. pio crespi is a very well known person here. her husband is retired; he has a company called crespi & co.--a cotton exchange brokerage. she is a close friend of the sharples family. mr. jenner. mrs. crespi? mr. raigorodsky. yes. mr. jenner. what do you understand mr. de mohrenschildt is doing over in haiti? mr. raigorodsky. over there? mr. jenner. yes. mr. raigorodsky. well, he told me that he wants to get in on the ground floor and he has a connection with the top banker in the country who is the duvalier banker, and that way he will be able to pickup some "juicy plums" in haiti. that's exactly what he told me. that's why he wanted to organize the corporation here, you see, to go to haiti and build plants and help them to develop the industry and reap the profits. you see, it so happened that i believe it is very hard to be a specialist in one line, and almost impossible in two, and my specialty is oil and all my business is in oil. if he came with an oil deal, i might be interested. mr. jenner. would you say in describing this man, that he has a sort of an adolescence personality, a fellow who has really never grown up? mr. raigorodsky. it isn't a sort of--he is adolescent. mr. jenner. he is adolescent? mr. raigorodsky. george will never grow old. mr. jenner. but will he grow up; is he lacking in maturity? mr. raigorodsky. he always did. mr. jenner. and things that amuse him are the sort of things that amused us, let's say, when we were adolescent--in our teens? mr. raigorodsky. when we were --that's right--any kind of pranks. mr. jenner. he is a prankster? mr. raigorodsky. oh, yes, sir. and he does it so engagingly. i mean, his laugh is a genuine laugh and if you ever heard his laugh--he enjoys it. you see, it is a genuine laugh and of course that is very, very effective, you know, as far as other people are concerned. mr. davis. would you say he is very distinct---- mr. raigorodsky. there is no word for that--very engaging, i suppose would be the nearest. mr. jenner. i think you mentioned, but i failed to pursue it, i think de mohrenschildt sought to borrow money from you, did he, in ? mr. raigorodsky. occasionally. mr. jenner. in connection with the haitian venture? mr. raigorodsky. no. mr. jenner. he did not? mr. raigorodsky. no; he sought to have me to participate in the deal. mr. jenner. and you did or didn't? mr. raigorodsky. i did not. mr. jenner. and that was to be what kind of a deal? mr. raigorodsky. well, it is a corporation--here is a chart of what he was planning to do. (handed instrument to counsel jenner.) mr. jenner. now, you have exhibited to me a chart that you have taken from your file. there is handwriting on the chart--is that george de mohrenschildt's handwriting? mr. raigorodsky. yes. mr. jenner. did he send that chart to you? mr. raigorodsky. yes; here's the envelope. mr. jenner. and have you attached to the chart the envelope in which the chart was transmitted to you, and it is postmarked september , , at dallas, tex., and is this an outline? mr. raigorodsky. of what he plans to do there. mr. jenner. of what he planned to do? mr. raigorodsky. you see, "port-au-prince, august , ." he shows he will have group insurance, cheap housing development, banking, cotton gin, electric powerplant, import franchise, spinning mill, weaving plant for cotton mill, and he puts down here "credits available for these industries." mr. jenner. do you have any information that he is surveying the physical characteristics of the surface? of the entire haitian area. mr. raigorodsky. well, that's what my understanding was, that that is how he got in so close to them--because it was one of his consulting jobs. mr. jenner. for the haitian government? mr. raigorodsky. for the haitian government. mr. jenner. is he still engaged on that; do you know, or are you informed? mr. raigorodsky. i don't know--i am not informed. mr. jenner. is it your impression that his haitian proposal was legitimate, that is, a legitimate speculation or otherwise. what i am getting at, in other words, that it was not anything of an ulterior character? mr. raigorodsky. well, here's some more of the same thing, which i think might be helpful. here's what information which they send to john de menil. mr. jenner. which he was sending to john de menil? mr. raigorodsky. it's a copy for me. mr. jenner. it is to john de menil? mr. raigorodsky. that's right. mr. jenner. would i have your permission to have these documents in your file duplicated? mr. raigorodsky. oh, sure. mr. jenner. i'll tell you what would be helpful to me--if you would have your secretary restore the file, because you have been generously pulling documents out of it, and if she will restore it to the order in which it was originally? mr. raigorodsky. all right. mr. jenner. then i will be able to go through it with you. (at this point the witness, mr. raigorodsky, called his secretary, mrs. louise meek, into the deposing office, giving her the instructions to comply with counsel jenner's request, and after leaving the deposing office and returning thereto shortly with the file in the order as requested, mrs. meek then departed the deposing room and the deposition continued as follows:) mr. raigorodsky. this shows the haitian holding company. it shows what they are trying to do. there is correspondence with the bank and everything. mr. jenner. there were two files there, as i recall it. mr. raigorodsky. you can have them both--the other one is on the well operation. mr. jenner. oh, i understand. you were participating with him in some drilling? mr. raigorodsky. yes. mr. jenner. and they were either dry holes or they didn't amount to anything? mr. raigorodsky. one dry hole and one other. i want to ask you something? mr. jenner. all right. mr. raigorodsky. have you ever talked to mr. h. gordon calder. mr. h. gordon calder is an oil man in shreveport, la. he is a close friend of mine; in fact, he probably was the first friend i had in this country. we went to the university of texas together. that's over years ago. his last job before he quit, he was the head of the southern production co., quite a large organization, and george has been working on several oil deals with gordon calder, and gordon calder has been more in contact with george than i have in the last several years. i see that gordon calder was in this well too; my office has the telephone number and address of mr. calder, in fact, if necessary, i can call him and he will come over here. mr. jenner. do you know whether professor jitkoff is acquainted with de mohrenschildt? mr. raigorodsky. oh, i'm sure he is. mr. jenner. you are acquainted with basil zavoico? mr. raigorodsky. yes. mr. jenner. who is he? mr. raigorodsky. basil--he is a russian. his father was a general in the russian army. he has a brother. basil zavoico has been--his primary business has been what i would say is a bank and insurance consultant on oil matters. he has been with prudential insurance co.; he has been with chase national bank. he was their consultant; and he has been in a business of his own mostly connected with oil financing. mr. jenner. did he at one time reside in dallas? mr. raigorodsky. no; he resided in houston. mr. jenner. do you know whether he would be acquainted then with george de mohrenschildt? mr. raigorodsky. oh, yes; i'm sure that they had some oil dealings. now, both gordon calder and zavoico probably had more dealings with george than i had. mr. jenner. and he lives in green farms, conn.? mr. raigorodsky. correct. mr. jenner. and his place is known as "cronomere"? is there anything that occurs to you that might be helpful to the commission, first, in its investigation of the assassination of president kennedy; and secondly, in regards to the character and integrity of, background and interests of george de mohrenschildt? mr. raigorodsky. well, the only thing i can say that i was told--it is a hearsay--that after meeting marina oswald--the way russians met, there was a party somewhere. mr. jenner. there was what? mr. raigorodsky. a party--a social gathering. mr. jenner. a party? mr. raigorodsky. somewhere--i don't remember where. mr. jenner. here in this country? mr. raigorodsky. here in dallas, and at that party, there were several russians, and they claimed that in walks george de mohrenschildt with marina oswald and her husband. that's the only thing that out of everything that they told me that stuck in my mind. mr. jenner. do you recall anybody who was reported to have been at this party? mr. raigorodsky. well, i'll say that mr. bouhe and anna meller. mr. jenner. m-e-l-l-e-r [spelling]? mr. raigorodsky. yes; i'm not quite sure--there were quite a few other russians, but it was george who brought the oswalds into the party. mr. jenner. we have had some off the record discussions all in the presence of miss oliver and mr. davis. is there anything that occurred during our off-the-record discussions that is pertinent, which i have failed to bring out. mr. raigorodsky. no; if it was pertinent i would not have taken it off of the record. now, may i say something myself? mr. jenner. certainly. mr. raigorodsky. would you care to know what my opinion of the assassination is, or is that just an opinion? mr. jenner. all right; let's have it. mr. raigorodsky. i still believe it is a conspiracy. mr. jenner. well, on what do you base that opinion? mr. raigorodsky. well, i have read--i'm quite sure everything that you have read, and you read probably more than i did because you have these interrogations. there are just so many things that are unbelievable, that a person like oswald, would be allowed to do the things in russia. mr. jenner. we are interested in that sort of an opinion. what is the basis of your opinion in that respect? mr. raigorodsky. well, i have studied communism and i have watched them operating, you know. mr. jenner. all right. (discussion between counsel jenner and the witness, raigorodsky, off the record.) mr. jenner. now, i want that on the record. mr. raigorodsky. well--the fact that they gave you all of the record, they gave you all of the records on oswald, that he was running around in russia, marrying a russian woman, that she was allowed to go out of russia--i know several cases where they wouldn't allow a person whom americans marry to come for several years. here, everything was (snapping his fingers) so--just like that. it just reads too much like a fairy tale. i mean, as much as they claim they don't trust him, they surely didn't show it by the action in granting him different things which he received in russia and in this country. now, marina, i don't know anything about her. mr. jenner. this is your supposition and rationalization on your part? mr. raigorodsky. that is correct. mr. jenner. now. i have your file---- mr. raigorodsky. now you take anything you want out of it. mr. jenner. all right. let's do it this way--i have your file which you have kept marked "re: george de mohrenschildt." mr. raigorodsky. yes. mr. jenner. i will just identify these documents. mr. raigorodsky. you don't need to. mr. jenner. well, i need it for my record. mr. raigorodsky. oh, all right. mr. jenner. i am not questioning you. mr. raigorodsky. well, i'm not questioning you. mr. jenner. the bottom portion of this sheet consists of a duplicate telegram, and the upper portion consists of some french language or what might be clippings from a french newspaper. it is marked with a circle no. [document is in evidence as de mohrenschildt exhibit no. ]. what are they and how did you get those? mr. raigorodsky. he sent them to me. mr. jenner. de mohrenschildt sent that to you? mr. raigorodsky. oh yes; it is about a recent voyage to the united states of mr. clemard joseph charles. you see, he was trying to prove to me that mr. charles persona grata, both in haiti and in the united states and was a big shot and here he was sending me some information about him. mr. jenner. the next document is what purports to be a carbon copy of a letter dated july , , addressed to mr. jean de menil of houston, tex. it is marked with a circle no. [document is in evidence as de mohrenschildt exhibit no. ]. it has a typewritten signatures on the second page, "g. de mohrenschildt." i see in the upper right hand corner, written in longhand "copy for mr. raigorodsky." in whose handwriting is that notation? mr. raigorodsky. his. mr. jenner. that is in george de mohrenschildt's handwriting? mr. raigorodsky. yes. mr. jenner. did he send that carbon copy of a letter to you? mr. raigorodsky. that's right, and this was the--outlining a project in haiti and the west indies. mr. jenner. and was there an outline enclosed? mr. raigorodsky. yes. mr. jenner. and is that the next sheet which is entitled: "haitian holding co.," dated august , , and is on the letterhead of george de mohrenschildt? petroleum geologist and engineer, republic national bank building, dallas, tex. [de mohrenschildt exhibit no. .] that was enclosed with the letter? mr. raigorodsky. yes, this is the letter and then this is the outline, and besides that, you see, here is the outline of what he planned. mr. jenner. the outline to which he refers is set forth in the two-page carbon copy of a letter i have heretofore identified? mr. raigorodsky. yes. mr. jenner. and there's also enclosed with it what appears to be the mimeographed one piece sheet i have described, dated august , , that has the mimeographed signature at the bottom, "g. de mohrenschildt." is that his signature? mr. raigorodsky. yes. mr. jenner. these documents were transmitted to you. did you save the envelope? mr. raigorodsky. yes. mr. jenner. and is the envelope clipped to the letter in the file? [de mohrenschildt exhibit no. .] mr. raigorodsky. yes, this looks like it. mr. jenner. and mr. de mohrenschildt addressed it to you, is that in his handwriting? mr. raigorodsky. yes. mr. jenner. and that's august ? mr. raigorodsky. that's it. mr. jenner. then, next is a letter on a letterhead of--would you read that for me? mr. raigorodsky. yes, yes; it is the banque commerciale d'haiti. mr. jenner. and it is dated july , . it is addressed to mr. de mohrenschildt, a typewritten signature of "clemard joseph charles." this seems to be a duplicated letter. [de mohrenschildt exhibit no. .] mr. raigorodsky. it's a photostat. mr. jenner. did mr. de mohrenschildt send that to you? mr. raigorodsky. yes. mr. jenner. on or about july , , or shortly thereafter. mr. raigorodsky. yes. mr. jenner. the next document consists of--it looks like an organization chart? [de mohrenschildt exhibit no. .] mr. raigorodsky. it isn't quite an organization chart, it is the chart of the different projects that he planned to have in haiti. mr. jenner. and here again there is some longhand writing in ink. mr. raigorodsky. yes. mr. jenner. is that de mohrenschildt's writing? mr. raigorodsky. yes. mr. jenner. and his signature? mr. raigorodsky. that's right. mr. jenner. and he also has written on there "dallas, september , ." mr. raigorodsky. that's right. mr. jenner. did you retain the envelope [de mohrenschildt exhibit no. ], in which that document, marked with a circled no. , was transmitted to you, too? mr. raigorodsky. yes. mr. jenner. and is it the next document which in turn is clipped to what i called an organizational chart? [de mohrenschildt exhibit no. .] and just a diagram? mr. raigorodsky. yes. mr. jenner. did anything else accompany that diagram? mr. raigorodsky. no, i'm quite sure nothing. mr. jenner. next is a photostatic copy of a telegram. [de mohrenschildt exhibit no. ]. it appears addressed to lt.--is that what that is? mr. raigorodsky. no, no; that's de mohrenschildt. mr. jenner. it should have been "de" mohrenschildt and it is "lt. mohrenschildt, dickens, dallas." mr. raigorodsky. yes. mr. jenner. it has a signature by "tardieu". how did you come by that? mr. raigorodsky. he sent it to me. mr. jenner. de mohrenschildt? mr. raigorodsky. yes. mr. jenner. the next document [de mohrenschildt exhibit no. ], appears to be a copy of a letter on august , , addressed to "mr. jean de menil," with a typewritten signature "george de mohrenschildt." on the face of that document appears more handwriting--do you recognize the handwriting? mr. raigorodsky. sure. mr. jenner. whose is it? mr. raigorodsky. it's signed by george. mr. jenner. it's george de mohrenschildt? mr. raigorodsky. yes. mr. jenner. and the "dear paul," in the footnote at the bottom of that letter is you? mr. raigorodsky. yes. mr. jenner. and the memorandum is for you? mr. raigorodsky. yes. mr. jenner. and that includes his handwriting on a notation in the upper right hand corner, "copy for mr. paul raigorodsky", correct? mr. raigorodsky. correct. mr. jenner. the next appears to be the original of a letter on blue stationery, the letterhead of which is " san felipe road, houston, tex." it has a typewritten signature, "john de menil" and then apparently is signed by a secretary, and it is addressed to you, is it? mr. raigorodsky. yes; and he investigated it later. mr. jenner. and he is making a report to you and also then decided he is not interested? mr. raigorodsky. but read this. mr. jenner. all right. "dear paul: george de mohrenschildt is a nice man, but i do not think his project is very well cooked. it is slightly visionary and not specific at all. this, of course, is my own personal reaction which i am giving you for your confidential information. it was also the reaction of my friend on wall street to whom i talked in the hope that perhaps he could get something out of the idea of george de mohrenschildt. with kinds regards and best wishes, yours sincerly, /s/ john de menil cp john de menil jdm:cp dictated by mr. de menil over the telephone from new york." the next document is a carbon copy of a letter dated august , , with the typewritten signature of john de menil. [raigorodsky exhibit no. .] it is addressed to mr. george de mohrenschildt in dallas. you received that, did you? mr. raigorodsky. yes. mr. jenner. and it was transmitted to you by mr. de menil's secretary; is that correct? mr. raigorodsky. that's right. mr. jenner. the next is also a carbon copy--this is a letter to mr. george de mohrenschildt from mr. john de menil and it is dated august , , with a copy to paul raigorodsky. [raigorodsky exhibit no. -b.] from whom did you receive that? mr. raigorodsky. from mr. de menil. mr. jenner. and then we have an envelope and a card enclosed. the envelope [raigorodsky exhibit no. ], is postmarked in new york may , . the envelope is addressed to mr. paul m. raigorodsky, first national building, dallas, tex. do you recognize the handwriting? mr. raigorodsky. sure. mr. jenner. on the bottom of the envelope and the enclosed card [raigorodsky exhibit no. -a]? mr. raigorodsky. yes. mr. jenner. and is that [raigorodsky exhibit no. -a] in mr. de mohrenschildt's handwriting? mr. raigorodsky. yes. mr. jenner. and was it a card enclosed in that envelope? mr. raigorodsky. yes. mr. jenner. the next is an original of a letter addressed to raigorodsky, dated june , , signed, "jeanne and george de m." [raigorodsky exhibit no. .] is that george de mohrenschildt? mr. raigorodsky. yes. mr. jenner. is everything that is in handwriting on the face of that letter in his handwriting? mr. raigorodsky. yes. mr. jenner. and you received that in due course? mr. raigorodsky. yes. mr. jenner. all right. mr. raigorodsky. this was written from port-au-prince. mr. jenner. it was written on the stationery of a hotel, hotel sans souci. port-au-prince, haiti. [raigorodsky exhibit no. -a.] the next document is an original letter from the de mohrenschildts, it is a typewritten letter and is signed, "george and jeanne" over the typewritten signature "jeanne and george de mohrenschildt," and is addressed to "dear paul." up here in the right hand corner is "port-au-prince, september , , c/o american embassy." [de mohrenschildt exhibit no. .] that is a letter to you, is it? mr. raigorodsky. yes. mr. jenner. you received it in due course? mr. raigorodsky. yes. mr. jenner. there is attached to the letter an envelope addressed to you, it looks like that is his handwriting? mr. raigorodsky. yes, that george's handwriting. mr. jenner. and is that the envelope in which the letter of september , , was enclosed? mr. raigorodsky. yes, i'm sure it is. mr. jenner. is that correct? mr. raigorodsky. correct. mr. jenner. now, mr. raigorodsky has handed me an envelope postmarked in new york, may , , to which he has made reference in his testimony. it is addressed to mr. paul m. raigorodsky, and it looks like fifth floor, first national bank building, dallas, tex., and it has a stamp on it, "may , ." that is a rubber stamp imprinted, accompanying this envelope, and there is handed to me his longhand note on "racquet & tennis club" imprinted card, dated in longhand, "may , ." [raigorodsky exhibits nos. and -a, respectively.] it begins, "dear paul," and is signed by "geo. de m." mr. raigorodsky, are this envelope and card in mr. de mohrenschildt's handwriting? mr. raigorodsky. yes, they are. mr. jenner. and was the card enclosed in the envelope here? mr. raigorodsky. yes, and here is another letter. mr. jenner. mr. raigorodsky has handed me another letter written on both sides, entirely on both sides in longhand, dated june , at miami, and signed "jeanne and george de m.". [de mohrenschildt exhibit no. .] do you recognize the handwriting on each side of that letter, mr. raigorodsky? mr. raigorodsky. yes. mr. jenner. whose is it? mr. raigorodsky. de mohrenschildt's. mr. jenner. and did you receive it in due course subsequent to june --of what year? mr. raigorodsky. . this is very interesting--this is a map of haiti. you see where he sent me--he said "our shada concession." mr. jenner. mr. raigorodsky, has opened up a texaco map of haiti, [de mohrenschildt exhibit no. ] republica dominicana on the face of the map--there is handwriting--do you recognize that handwriting? mr. raigorodsky. yes; that's george de mohrenschildt's. mr. jenner. did you receive that from him? mr. raigorodsky. i can't answer that--it probably is mentioned in one of the letters. mr. jenner. one of the letters i have identified? mr. raigorodsky. yes. mr. jenner. but all of that is his handwriting? mr. raigorodsky. yes; and you see, he has written in here "oil possibilities mellon concession" and "our shada concession." mr. jenner. what is "shada"? mr. raigorodsky. that's where he claims he had the concessions for the hemp. mr. jenner. for hemp or sisal there? mr. raigorodsky. yes; sisal. mr. jenner. these things will all show up on any photostat immediately of this? mr. raigorodsky. sure. mr. jenner. now, i state for the record, mr. raigorodsky, has authorized us to make a copy of papers i have identified and identified them in the record, so one thing is helpful--i don't have to go to the trouble of preparing a receipt because you have it in the record, and secondly, in the event--if we seek to question mr. de mohrenschildt i will have these documents identified as to their authenticity by way of this questioning of you. thank you very much, sir, you have been extremely patient and i would like the record to show that mr. raigorodsky appeared voluntarily, also he has a very bad cold which has been quite obvious and came to the u.s. attorney's office about : a.m. and then we repaired to here, his office, and it is now : in the afternoon and he has been under questioning during that whole period of time. i appreciate this personally and i know the commission will. i offer in evidence the foregoing documents as raigorodsky exhibits nos. , , -a, -b, , -a, , and a. mr. raigorodsky. i hope to help you in some way, but i'm just as lost at this moment as i was then. mr. jenner. well, you have been very helpful throughout this. mr. raigorodsky, miss oliver, the reporter, will transcribe this deposition possibly during the course of the week, if not, it will be ready next week, and you have the right to read it and make some corrections, suggestions or additions, and to sign it. that is a privilege that is accorded you, if you wish to examine it. you may also have a copy by purchase of a copy from miss oliver and whatever your deposition is with respect to all these alternatives. mr. raigorodsky. i would like to have a copy for sure, and i may, when you might note in spelling in some of the names, i will be glad to help you with that if you will call me on the phone before you put it down. mr. jenner. all right, we thank you very much. mr. raigorodsky. all right, thank you. testimony of mrs. thomas m. ray (natalie) the testimony of mrs. thomas m. ray (natalie) was taken at a.m., on march , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. robert t. davis, assistant attorney general of texas, was present. mr. liebeler. come in mr. and mrs. ray and sit down. mr. ray. we didn't get your letter until monday because you addressed it to blossom, tex. we are on mailing route , detroit, tex., and we are on the blossom, tex., telephone exchange. mr. liebeler. oh, i'm sorry. you are supposed to have days' notice. mr. ray. that's all right. we're here now. mr. liebeler. mrs. ray, i would like to take your testimony at this time. would you rise and raise your right hand and i will swear you before we start. (witness complying.) mr. liebeler. do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give here will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mrs. ray. i do. mr. liebeler. my name is wesley j. liebeler. i am a member of the legal staff of the president's commission investigating the assassination of president kennedy. staff members have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the commission pursuant to authority granted to the commission by executive order dated november , , and joint resolution of congress no. . i believe mr. rankin sent you a letter last week? mrs. ray. yes; and i read it and have your name, too. mr. liebeler. he sent with that letter copies of the executive order and the joint resolution as well as copies of the rules and procedure governing the taking of testimony of witnesses. did you receive that letter and copies of such documents? mrs. ray. yes. mr. liebeler. mr. ray previously mentioned that the letter was routed to the wrong post office box and you did not get it until sunday. mrs. ray. monday. mr. liebeler. under the rules of the commission each witness is entitled to days' notice before he has to testify and i suppose technically since you did not get the letter until monday you do not have to testify today or you can waive that notice, and i presume you are willing to go ahead with the questioning at this time; is that correct? mrs. ray. yes. mr. liebeler. we want to inquire of you today, mrs. ray, concerning the events at a party at the home of mr. and mrs. declan p. ford which was held in dallas in december , as the events at that party related to or involved lee harvey oswald. we also want to question you about meetings and/or parties that you went to at other places in dallas during the period shortly after december , . before we get into that, would you state your full name for the record? mrs. ray. me? mr. liebeler. yes; what is your full name? mrs. ray. natalie. mr. liebeler. and your last name is---- mrs. ray. ray. mr. liebeler. r-a-y [spelling]? mrs. ray. r-a-y [spelling]. mr. liebeler. what is your residence? mrs. ray. route , detroit, tex.--here, you mean? mr. liebeler. yes. where were you born? mrs. ray. russia. mr. liebeler. where in russia? mrs. ray. stalingrad. mr. liebeler. approximately when were you born? mrs. ray. in , may . mr. liebeler. when did you leave stalingrad? mrs. ray. let me see, in , in time war; germans come and taken over stalingrad and pick me up and send to germany. mr. liebeler. when the german troops reached stalingrad they picked you up and other russian people? mrs. ray. yeah; lots of russians and they send us to germany in camp, in concentration camp, labor camp, i guess, more. mr. liebeler. how long were you in germany? mrs. ray. i been there until i come to america, . mr. liebeler. how did it come about that you came to the united states; what were the circumstances of your coming here? mrs. ray. well, i met my husband was town of wiesbaden being liberated by americans and that's the first time we ever saw american people and then they taken us out and tell us to wait until they able to send us to russia. at this time we been working for americans, soldiers, something in kitchen or different something, just for food until we be able to go back to russia and i met my husband and when i met him, well, i lost all contact with home and been told there's nobody at home, no place to go and my husband tell me that i can marry american man and i said, "no, i cannot marry american man because russia will not permit me to marry" and we did have lots of difficulty to get marry and my husband went to paris, france, to have permission that they let us marry but they not let him see nobody, just asking where i am. i have to hide at this time because russia picking up and sending all back to russia, and my husband find me room in germany where i have to stay until we get married. well, they--russians don't give me permission for me to get marry and later on i have to go up and became as a displaced person and in , there, u.s. government said could marry to displaced person and i marry my husband in may . yeah, i guess or --let me see, yeah, in because--or . i guess. i'm sorry. mr. liebeler. you were both in germany at the time? mrs. ray. yes; my husband and i used to travel when war still going on, you know, they move and i move with him; that will be something come. we go to frankfurt; i went with him to frankfurt. if he have to move i go with him. three russian girls, us, together, and i did in . i guess. i marry. i forget now when, i am very sorry. mr. liebeler. that's all right; that's not important. mrs. ray. war ended in and year later i married; that's in , i'm sorry. mr. liebeler. and then you came to the united states with your husband, is that correct? mrs. ray. yes; well, we stay year in germany after we marry. mr. liebeler. then when he left germany you came back to the united states? mrs. ray. yes; i go with him. mr. liebeler. are you an american citizen now? mrs. ray. yes; i am. mr. liebeler. did you ever meet lee oswald or marina oswald? mrs. ray. yes; i met them at this party. mr. liebeler. would you tell us about that in your own words; just tell us how you came to the party and how you met oswald and to the best of your recollection just how it happened. mrs. ray. well, i wrote short stories for magazine and mrs. harris, zena harris, ed harris from georgetown read that story and find my address and found me russian. until this time i never been have any--nobody there from russian and i don't have not nobody. mr. liebeler. you had no contact with russian speaking people? mrs. ray. no; except some friend in new york what we used to live in germany together and we write each other mrs. harris called me on phone and said that--"i know you are russian and i like to talk to you." i said, "well, i am glad to know somebody russian, just about forget how to talk to russian." she said she like to come over and see me. i tell her she welcome to it. they did come visit us and she told me that they always get together in dallas, lots of russian girls and russian men have a party and she like for me to come to this party. i said, "well, i like to know, you know, more people russian" because i never have contact with nobody. well, she calling on phone from my house to mr. ford, declan ford and talk to his wife and tell her, said, "i found one russian" and said "i like for her to coming to this party." they already planned this party. she asked her time when it's going to be. she said on friday--friday, i kind of think before new year and she said she welcome to it and said we going to have one russian girl what just come back from russia. she said she just coming with man in united states. mr. liebeler. mrs. ford told you this, is that right? mrs. ray. mrs. ford, yeah, she said she had girl what going to be at this party that just come back from russia. well, it's home and you like to hear what is going on, any change, still same or, you know---- mr. liebeler. sure. mrs. ray. just glad to meet somebody. well, we promised that we will come and friday we go to this party and mr. and mrs. harris and we went to mr. ford house. when we coming there, there's lots of people. mr. liebeler. how many people were there, approximately, would you say? mrs. ray. between , people; i cannot tell exactly but it's lots of people been there, and, surely, you know, you kind of like to know what's going on in russia. first things i like to know this girl and this man. well, they introduced everybody and then they tell that this marina, she's come back from russia. well, i started talk to her and asking how she like it here. she said she liked very well. i said, "did you have any difficulty to come to america?" she said, "no, she don't have any at all." very much surprise me because i not been able to do much with my home. i not be able to send them packages or--i said, "oh, that's very good; i guess now it's change and get better," i said. mr. liebeler. do you have relatives in russia now that you know of? mrs. ray. yes; i have a niece what i been--she write my mother passed away and i lost my brothers and sisters in war and then mother, when germans take me from home, my mother and two children, my sisters, stay and i together and then they take me away. my mother and these two children stay. then this child, one got killed; still war going on and one niece, my sister's girl and that's one is on the road out to my mother. mr. liebeler. was she living in stalingrad? mrs. ray. no; at this time, no; they moved. at this time she lived in tchewchankowskiy, rudnek. that's pretty close to---- mr. liebeler. kharkov? mrs. ray. that's lots salt mines there and that's close kharkov. that's not too far from kharkov. mr. liebeler. i interrupted your story about your conversation with marina. would you go on with that? mrs. ray. yes. after she told that she don't have any difficulty to come here, you know, i, well, everybody interested. i told her, i said, "i am glad; i guess get better because if they let you so easy to get out russia then that's get little bit better now and i guess they better friends." i said, "maybe later on"--i let be get contact now with niece. i been trying call her on telephone. i never can get her on phone. i said, "maybe i can calling her and talk to her now" and i never planned to go back but, you know, just for somebody there you want to get contact with and then another things i found out that her husband is--she introduced me to her husband like she done everybody and he speak just perfect russian. mr. liebeler. did he speak to you in russian? mrs. ray. yes; just perfect; really surprised me and i said "how come you speak so good russian. how long you been in russia?" he said well, he don't been there too long. he said he been just year. i said "you just been three---- mr. davis. excuse me, how long? mrs. ray. three year. i said "you speak good russian." i asked him, i said "do you like" no; i asked "how you like russia?" he said "oh, it's all right." but he don't have much to say, you know, but he always staying close to marina and every time you asking something he seems to be one to answer it. if someone say where you from, he tell you. maybe he just plain wanted let you know he speak russian or something. i don't know reason but seems to me that he all time interfere. mr. liebeler. when you would ask marina a question oswald himself would want to tell you the answer? mrs. ray. yes, always; he be very close. mr. liebeler. did you ask him if he had gone to school anywhere to learn russian? mrs. ray. no; i don't but i give him credit for speak so well russian. i said "i been here so long and still don't speak very well english"; i said "you speak fast russian." he said in russia he learn to speak russian. he just came back. mr. liebeler. you thought he spoke russian better than you would expect a person to be able to speak russian after only living there only years? mrs. ray. yes; i really did. i don't know, maybe russian easy. i know american is very difficult language but i been taught here. really, it's just too good speaking russian for be such a short time, you know. mr. liebeler. did he tell you anything about how he learned to speak russian or did he just say it was from being in russia? mrs. ray. no; i never asked. only things, i give him credit he speak so well russian and i don't ask and then i want to introduce him to my husband, you know. he is an american and my husband did not remember him very well how he look and my husband, i guess, have few drinks and he is man don't talk much. this oswald don't say much and you introduce and that's as far as go but he always constantly staying very close to his wife, you know. mr. liebeler. tell us the rest of your conversation with marina or with oswald as best you can recall it. mrs. ray. well, after she told that she don't have any difficulty and we decided that everything is getting better and we started asking her about russian songs and they start to sing in russian songs, and asking her sing, if she know any latest russian song, and she start sing and we sing with her together and then i notice that's all been say as much conversation. mr. liebeler. did you ask her where she lived when she was in russia? mrs. ray. yes; i ask her where she come from. she said she come from minsk but said later she coming from moscow. she been in moscow with her husband. he has a paper fix and she said as soon as he got his paper fix to go to america, said she did not have difficulty. he told them he ready to go and he going to take her with him and said she got paper and they left. don't take too long; said he have to wait for little while. i believe she said a year, have to wait before he got his paper. mr. liebeler. before he got his paper from the americans or from the russians; did she say? mrs. ray. no; from americans to go back to america; so he decided to go back to america. mr. liebeler. did she tell you how long they stayed in moscow? mrs. ray. she stayed year. mr. liebeler. she said they were in moscow year? mrs. ray. yes; see, from minsk he have to go in moscow to american embassy to talking he wanted to go back and they staying year in moscow before he got this paper and as soon as he got paper, he let russian embassy know he got paper, they ready to leave and said they give her paper and they left. mr. liebeler. the russians gave her the papers? mrs. ray. yes. mr. liebeler. did marina mention she had lived in leningrad at one time? mrs. ray. no; not that i remember. mr. liebeler. did you know or did she tell you she had relatives in kharkov? mrs. ray. no. mr. liebeler. did you learn what kind of job oswald had while he was in russia? mrs. ray. well, not exactly; all i know she said he working on factory, some factory and we don't get any details. mr. liebeler. did they tell you where this factory was located? mrs. ray. located what? mr. liebeler. where was the factory that oswald worked in? mrs. ray. in minsk. mr. liebeler. did oswald work while they stayed in moscow a year? do you know about that? mrs. ray. no; i cannot help in this. i do not know. i know that they coming and stay in moscow. mr. liebeler. are you sure that she told you they stayed in moscow for a whole year or did they just go to moscow to see about the papers and then come back to minsk and wait in minsk for the year to go by? mrs. ray. well, really, when mrs. ford call us, she on telephone told us that she come from moscow, you know. that is girl, russian girl, she says she come back from moscow. mr. liebeler. from moscow? mrs. ray. yeah, and then later on marina said that she, you know--let me see how she say--that she come from moscow. she fly--not fly--i do not know how they come but she say from moscow she come to america but she been in moscow year. said that's year or little better but she been in moscow with him; that's what she tell. mr. liebeler. for a year? mrs. ray. yeah. mr. liebeler. but they did not tell you what they were doing there for a job? mrs. ray. no; well, she tell he have to wait on paper this long and that's as far as i know. mr. liebeler. now, did marina know how to speak english as far as you could tell? mrs. ray. no; she don't understand word. she speak russian but she don't understand english. mr. liebeler. did oswald or marina tell you what kind of an apartment they had to live in when they lived in minsk? mrs. ray. no. mr. liebeler. did they tell you where they lived when they were in moscow? mrs. ray. no. mr. liebeler. can you remember anything else that they may have told you about the time that they were in russia together? mrs. ray. well, i don't think anything else. i can recall main things. i never been concerned about where they lived or what they been doing. all i wanted to know how easy she get out, you know; how come she so easy to go when such a difficulty to have anything to do. that's why my impression been that everything is get better, you know. mr. liebeler. did they tell you how much money oswald was paid at his job? mrs. ray. where, there? mr. liebeler. yes. mrs. ray. no, uh-uh. mr. liebeler. did they tell you why oswald went to russia in the first place? mrs. ray. no; but i read in the paper and then, you know, before he went, i remember in fort worth paper, i read it about boy went to russia that he said that's government he preferred and that's place he want to go to live and--but that's as far as--then mrs. harris is one that told me she know about him, that he went to russia and want to stay there and then he change his mind and want to come back to america. mr. liebeler. you knew that about oswald when you met him at ford's party, is that right? mrs. ray. yes--no, no; i don't know it because we suppose to know it and zena--that's mrs. harris--don't know either who they are but when we go mrs. harris found out who is here and then she told me. that's in conversation, you know, he went to russia and don't like it and he come back but marry this russian girl and brought her with. mr. liebeler. so, you learned that at the ford party because mrs. harris told you that, is that right? mrs. ray. yeah. mr. liebeler. after the oswalds left the party was there any discussion about oswald amongst the people there? mrs. ray. well, not that moment when they start leaving, well, we go to marina and i personally ask why they are leaving so early--i don't recall the time--she said well, they coming with some couples, they don't have any car, they came with somebody and said they ready to go and "we better go; we have baby at home and we better go back." well, we tell them "bye" and that's as far as went but after they left at this time there has been no discussion whatsoever, you know, just they gone and everything is forgot. mr. liebeler. did there come a time later after the ford party that there was a discussion about the oswalds? mrs. ray. yeah, next day. mr. liebeler. where was that? mrs. ray. let me see, i have a dates what happened next saturday. we went back to ford's house. they ask us coming over and saturday we staying at ford house and there's not much been discussion about but she only know, she tell us that she been keeping marina with her weeks, marina and her baby. mr. liebeler. mrs. ford told you this? mrs. ray. yes; and she said "well, he cannot find job"--said she just want to help out and that's as far as been discussed and forgot and then we went sunday we going back to mrs. meller, let me see. anna meller. mr. liebeler. that's meller. did you say the next saturday? in other words a week after? mrs. ray. no, no; that's same, that following saturday. we been friday, that saturday and sunday; we days been here in dallas. sunday, we ask by george bouhe--or how you say? mr. liebeler. bouhe. mrs. ray. bouhe, yes, to come and visit another russian family what being at ford's house; that's anna meller and we went over there and that's one main things taken place when we discussed oswald and his wife. mr. liebeler. who was there at that time? mr. and mrs. meller were both there, is that right? mr. ray. yes. mr. liebeler. mr. bouhe? mrs. ray. yes, sir; he. mr. liebeler. yourself and your husband? mrs. ray. yes; and harris. mr. liebeler. mr. and mrs. harris? mrs. ray. yes; mr. and mrs. harris and then another couple i cannot recall name and they gave me address but i lost it. they live on farm; i don't remember their name; they, couple, and some girl there been from houston. she visit with mrs. meller. mr. liebeler. would that be miss biggers--tatiana biggers? mrs. ray. tatiana biggers, yeah, she from houston. mr. liebeler. anybody else there that you remember? mrs. ray. another girl here from dallas; she not married. i don't remember what her name---- mr. liebeler. lydia dymitruk? mrs. ray. yeah. mr. liebeler. would you tell us to the best of your recollection what was said at this party or get-together? mrs. ray. well, when we got together, george bouhe, one i told him, well, when things we started discuss it and we just wonder how come america take him back; said he choose this russia, why they brought him back. why don't they just let him alone over there, and said "you don't know russia as we do. they have such funny tricks; never can tell what they can," but in the same time thinking if he choosing go to russia and said "that's my country", why america want to bring him back, what for? we wonder why they take him back. well, there's george bouhe said "oh, he gives so much trouble" and he start telling first things he cannot get job, said he kind of smart-aleck, he calling him. said every place he go looking for the job, when they ask him where he last time work and he said minsk, russia, said "well, who in heaven going to give job?" he don't explain. he seems to be proud he working in russia and said nobody give him job and they been have very much difficulty to making living and said they so sorry for this girl. said he brought her here and she don't know any language. said she such have difficulty. they don't wonder she have wrong impression about america. said we been trying help them. said sometimes she call them and said she don't have nothing to eat for her kid if they cannot help. said we go and get her and said mrs. ford keep her; mrs. meller keep her; mrs. ray keep her, not me, ray, that's other ray. said we try to help and then george tell me he decided help him try find job maybe he can make living. mr. liebeler. george bouhe? mrs. ray. yes; george bouhe, he said he go talk to somebody and they give him job. said you know how long he stay. said he staying days and quit and i said "well, i guess he expect since he been in russia when he come back in america that they going to put red carpet for him and take him." said well, tell us about america what is wrong, there in russia they don't accept him and when he come back home they don't need him either here, don't put red carpet and he just disappoint and kind of, you know, just disgusted with everything and he said "well, i don't know but i give up with them; i am through, we just cannot--he don't going to find job. he don't going to keep job." he thinking he can have some kind of special job; said "i am just through with him." mr. liebeler. this is what bouhe said? mrs. ray. yes; he said "as much as her, we want to help her because she is strange in country and we don't want her be mistreated but said him, we cannot help him any more" and that's as much as being said. mr. liebeler. what else was said at this time? mrs. ray. well, i don't know; i cannot recall right now. mr. liebeler. was there any discussion on the question of whether or not oswald might have been an agent of the russian government? mrs. ray. well, as an agent we not--but we did discuss. said russia, you know, so funny; said never can tell they may send him with some kind of purpose here in america but it isn't saying exactly as an agent but we did discuss it that he may, you know, just send it by russia because so easy way to coming to america. mr. liebeler. tell us now as best as you can recall just what was said about this question of oswald possibly being sent back by the russians? what did you say and what did bouhe say; just tell us as best you can recall the substance of that conversation. mrs. ray. i mostly talk to george bouhe because he seems to be man what try to bring this russians together just have fun, not any purpose but said kind of once in a year if we get together that's kind of help we don't forget to speak russian. i don't know, i guess i am one who told him, i said "george", i said, "you know how russia is funny", i said, "you know i just afraid maybe they just send him with some kind of, you know, just send him here knowing russian." i go in college in russia and if you live there and study you know what really going on. they going to do such a trick that you surprise. mr. liebeler. where did you go to college in russia? mrs. ray. in leningrad. mr. liebeler. in leningrad? mrs. ray. yes. mr. liebeler. and this was while you were living in stalingrad? mrs. ray. well, my home in stalingrad; i going in college in leningrad and then i went home. mr. liebeler. back to stalingrad? mrs. ray. yes. mr. liebeler. what did you study in leningrad? mrs. ray. economist statistics. mr. davis. economics statistics? mr. liebeler. economics statistics. mrs. ray. economics statistics. mr. liebeler. how long did you study? mrs. ray. three and a half year. mr. liebeler. where did you study in leningrad, what college? mrs. ray. soljanoy calach--that's salt. i suppose to after i finish they will send me work to the salt mines and been sent to siberia, irkutsk, siberia. that's only on practice but i was work after i finish in irkutsk, siberia. mr. davis. this was a leningrad college? mrs. ray. no, no; that's stalingrad. mr. davis. i mean college. mrs. ray. yes; leningrad--street maxim gorky street. that's on maxim gorky street; that's college. mr. liebeler. when were you there in leningrad studying, what year, what years? mrs. ray. you mean when? mr. liebeler. yes. mrs. ray. see, what happen i study and then i have a permission, not permission. i have to go and work in siberia, irkutsk and before i go this far--that is very far from my home, i have -months vacation and i went home. from first i go to irkutsk; then from there i coming home in summertime, in june. my brother supposed to come home from flying school to get married and i have months after finish college. you have -months vacation; government paying you go back home. mr. liebeler. to stalingrad? mrs. ray. yes; take me day to go home. when i coming home i staying there just few day and my brother coming and war started and after war started, i wrote letter to this government place where you have to write that you like to stay at home not to go back since war started that i like to staying at home with my mother, not to go back in siberia, and that's where i stay. that's how come. mr. liebeler. you were there when the germans arrived in stalingrad? mrs. ray. yes; when germans come there. mr. liebeler. so, you would have been studying at college in leningrad from about , is that right, to ? mrs. ray. in when i coming home and just about years. mr. liebeler. so, it would have been about or that you started at the university in leningrad? mrs. ray. well, wait minute, , , , ; see, - / year and they constantly, every second year they send you some place, you know, practice. mr. liebeler. so, the time you were in siberia was part of a practice program in connection with your college? mrs. ray. no; at this time that's my job. that's where i have to go. mr. liebeler. did you actually go from leningrad to siberia to start work? mrs. ray. yes; i went; i been once before on practice job then i come back and then they assign me to siberia. mr. liebeler. and, you actually went to siberia before you came to stalingrad? mrs. ray. yes. mr. liebeler. how long did you stay in siberia before you came back to leningrad? mrs. ray. this time i did not stay long. i had this plant they have on ground. mr. liebeler. salt processing? mrs. ray. yes; i have -months vacation and i told them that i did like to go back home. you know they let you do these things; you have to admit it and then go back and have us vacation and that's how come i coming home. mr. liebeler. so, you were not in siberia very long at all when you went there the first time? mrs. ray. no; but i been to siberia before on practice. mr. liebeler. let's go back to the conversation that you were having with mr. bouhe about possibility that oswald might have been sent here by the russians for some purpose, that the russians had devised for him or asked him to do it. mrs. ray. yes. mr. liebeler. tell us as best you can recall what the conversation was? mrs. ray. well, seems to be everybody that hasn't just--first i talk with george but then everybody just starting wondering, you know, said why they taken him back; said that's funny, they should not taken him back, never can tell what is going happen. george--one said he don't have any guts to do anything, not any kind--he is just man that is silly. we just decided on this party that he just isn't crazy but--i don't know how to explain. mr. liebeler. mental case? mrs. ray. really not this way but we decided that he just not any count. he isn't any good. he said he try to be smart; he don't have enough sense. said--they said they going to be through with him. they don't want have anything to do with him any more. mr. liebeler. was this conversation carried on in russian or in english? mrs. ray. in russian. mr. liebeler. was your husband there at the time? mrs. ray. yeah; sometimes we tell him what is going on and he ask me sometimes. he remember this discussion, too. mr. liebeler. did you tell him about the discussion in english or did mr. bouhe? mrs. ray. well, we half way talk in russian and then we get in on english, you know, and part what when he interested in something we tell him and he mostly, he know what we talking about. mr. liebeler. did you have any other reason for thinking that oswald might be a russian agent other than the fact that he had gotten married to marina and left russia with such ease? was there any other reason that led you to suspect he might be an agent? mrs. ray. i don't know; i cannot recall it but i cannot--i don't know how to tell, that is just my opinion but seems to be he very easy can quit job and go in moscow. in russia that isn't so easy quit job. they send me in siberia; i have to stay there. i cannot quit. i cannot go home and stay there and work. i have to get permission and stay there and working. i imagine he have permission to go to moscow, but he seems--from minsk going to moscow; i don't know what he been doing but not as far as this; other, i don't know. mr. liebeler. so you thought that in addition to his apparent--in addition to the apparent ease with which he left russia and the fact he was able to get married and bring marina out and also because he was able to move from minsk to moscow, those are three reasons you thought he might be an agent. did you have any other reason that led you to believe that? mrs. ray. well, main things--i don't thought those things be made him agent. i thought that's in russia get better if they let people quit job and travel and let marina come back here so easy. i don't thought--that's main things he can be as agent but how come this man coming to my mind, russia have such a tricks that we thought never can tell what they---- mr. liebeler. would do? mrs. ray. will do with him, really; see, i study in college and they don't need communists coming to russia. they need communists going to other country and working. mr. liebeler. did you ever receive any training or did you know people who received training in college when you were in russia to go outside russia and be agents for russia? mrs. ray. no; i never received but i do know that we have it in russia. mr. liebeler. how do you know; do you have schools like that? mrs. ray. yes; we have school like this and see, my brother been in military school; he is flyer; he got killed and they do, you know. we study in college, too, that we have to send people out to work with the people and have organized communist party right there. they don't need, you know in russia them; they need in other country. they don't want a war; that's as far as they said. we do not want a war. mr. liebeler. the russians do not want a war? mrs. ray. yes; they said we do not want to have a war but we let them have war inside and have revolution and let them destroy themselves, but as far as fight, we don't want it and we have lots of pictures where they showing agents sent from other countries in russia; other countries send it to russia and they catch it and they said we have to always be alert and we have to send trained people over and that's as much as i know, but i don't know if they send it or they don't send it. i don't know any people i meet here because i really be cut off. that's first time i meet these people. mr. davis. where would that school be; do you know? mrs. ray. which kind? mr. davis. school where they would teach people this. mrs. ray. that is really secret. they don't let you know. in russia? mr. davis. yes. mrs. ray. i don't know if they do train agents. mr. liebeler. you were told this when you were going to school in leningrad, is that correct? mrs. ray. yeah. mr. liebeler. did you finally come to a conclusion in this discussion as to whether oswald was probably a russian agent or probably was not a russian agent? mrs. ray. no; we just decided he just plain not any count; just decided he just crazy, not really in mind crazy but he try to be smart but we don't have any conclusion that he is russian agent but we just been wondering, you know. mr. liebeler. in fact, didn't you sort of generally conclude and agree that because he did not seem to be a responsible person, that he did not seem to have money that you probably thought he was not a russian agent? mrs. ray. well, yes; we said if russia send some agent here, they do give him all connection here. he be not without money; he be not without job. as far as oswald, he cannot get job. he have such difficulty and usually if russia really send it he be don't have any such difficulty. that's what been discussed and we decided he not russian agent. mr. liebeler. can you remember any of the other details of these conversations that you had or have you told us everything that you can recall? mrs. ray. no; that all i recall right now. mr. liebeler. other than this one evening that you saw oswald and his wife at the ford party you never saw them at any other time; is that correct? mrs. ray. no, sir; i never see. mr. liebeler. do you know anything else about oswald that you think the commission should know that you have not already told us? mrs. ray. no; i don't know nothing else. mr. liebeler. is there anything else you would like to add to your testimony you think we should know or do you think we covered it fairly well? mrs. ray. i think you cover it. one thing i want to tell you. when i saw on television what happened, you know, i recognized him right away and when my husband come back from work i told him i said, "honey, do you know who done it?" it shocked me to know you just met this man; made you kind of disgusted you even know him and never thought there here a man what we thought no count can do something like this and when my husband looking on television, he not remember him. i said, "well, you remember when i introduced and tell he has been in russia" and he said, "i not even know what he look like him" and that's much---- mr. liebeler. did you and your husband discuss the possibility after you saw that oswald had been arrested in connection with the assassination, did you discuss the possibility then that oswald might have been a russian agent or didn't you think about that again? mrs. ray. no; we not. see, my husband called george bouhe. mr. liebeler. after the assassination? mrs. ray. after this happen, yeah; and talking to him on telephone and said, "george, is that true that's oswald really done it?" he said, "well, we try--just hear it and everything is still--." he said, "we just try to figure out; there we thought he is just don't have any enough guts and then he done things like this." we just can't figure out that he have anything to do with these things, but he said they don't hear from him. he had been left from dallas. said last time we been there they quit with him. he give them so much trouble they just want to forget him. said, "we don't hear from him" but said that's one oswald what, said, you know this party; my husband did not remember and he thinking i am telling--am mixed up. i said, "well, that's marina, and this man is---- mr. liebeler. do you have any other questions, mr. attorney general. mr. davis. no. mr. liebeler. i think that's all we have at this time. we want to thank you very much for coming in. testimony of thomas m. ray the testimony of thomas m. ray was taken at : p.m., on march , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. robert t. davis, assistant attorney general of texas, was present. mr. liebeler. mr. ray, would you rise and raise your right hand? (complying.) mr. liebeler. do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. ray. i do. mr. liebeler. my name is wesley j. liebeler. i am a member of the legal staff of the president's commission investigating the assassination of president kennedy. the commission has authorized staff members to take the testimony of witnesses pursuant to authority which was granted to the commission by executive order dated november , , and joint resolution of congress no. . it is my understanding that mr. rankin wrote to you and your wife last week and told you i would contact you to take your testimony. mr. ray. oh, yes. mr. liebeler. enclosed with that letter were copies of the executive order and joint resolution and a copy of the rules of the commission's procedure relating to the taking of testimony. did you receive the letter? mr. ray. yes. mr. liebeler. did it contain copies of the documents i referred to? mr. ray. yes. mr. liebeler. technically, the commission's letter requires the witness to be given days' notice prior to the time they have to testify although that notice can be waived. i understand you did not receive the letter until monday because it was misdirected to the wrong post office. mr. ray. that's right. mr. liebeler. but i assume you are prepared to go ahead with your testimony at this time? mr. ray. i sure am; don't want to come over here again. mr. liebeler. the testimony we want this time from you relates basically to some conversations that were had in late concerning the background of lee harvey oswald. first of all, would you state your full name for the record? mr. ray. do i have to give my middle name? mr. liebeler. if you don't ordinarily use it, you don't. mr. ray. thomas m. ray. mr. liebeler. thomas m. ray. what is your address, sir? mr. ray. route , detroit. mr. liebeler. texas? mr. ray. yes. mr. liebeler. what is your employment, sir? mr. ray. we have a dairy farm which my wife operates with the help of a hired hand and my supervision and i also am a commission salesman for sam weiss in paris who is the consignee of gulf oil in paris, and right now i am right in the middle of changing my place of employment. i am going on the road for paris milling co. the th of this next month as assistant sales manager and i have been with mr. weiss for about - / years. mr. liebeler. you are a native-born american, aren't you, mr. ray? mr. ray. right; born in paris, tex. mr. liebeler. you are married to natalie ray, is that correct? mr. ray. that is right. mr. liebeler. and your wife is a native of russia; is that right? mr. ray. that is right. mr. liebeler. would you tell us briefly the circumstances under which you met and married your wife? mr. ray. well, i was stationed in wiesbaden and as you probably already know there were a lot of displaced persons over there, and the army used these displaced persons for various duties, you know, kitchen work and things like that and i met her there during the time that she and some other girls came to work for our outfit. all we had to do was go get them, you know, feed them and transport them back and forth and feed them and that's where i met her, in wiesbaden. mr. liebeler. then you were subsequently married and you brought her back to the united states; is that correct? mr. ray. yes, sir; after a length of time during which i was later discharged there and worked for the u.s. force headquarters in frankfurt. (at this point in the hearing, mr. robert t. davis, assistant attorney general of texas leaves the room.) mr. ray. [continuing]. i was employed there about, well, i think actually i was on the payroll until they sent me back to new york which would have been , months, i think. mr. liebeler. you were employed as a civilian is that correct? mr. ray. civilian employee of the government. mr. liebeler. were you an officer or enlisted man; what was your rank when you met your wife? mr. ray. buck sergeant. mr. liebeler. did you incur any difficulty when you tried to marry your wife when you were in germany? mr. ray. at various times it looked like we were running into stumps but we got over them. at times it looked like they were going to send all the russian nationals back to russia and i even made a trip to paris, france, once to try to talk to the russian embassy there and never got to see him. i think along about that time the government stepped in and kind of protected these people that did not want to go back, you know, and things kind of let up then and we were left about our business for awhile; there after the war, they were trying to get all the russian nationals back. mr. liebeler. did your wife have to obtain the permission of russian authorities before she could marry you? mr. ray. i don't think so. now i'm not sure on that point. i wouldn't say for sure one way or the other; it has been so long ago. mr. liebeler. what was your purpose in going to paris to try and see the russian embassy, to get permission to keep her here? mr. ray. to keep her from being sent back to russia. you know it was during that time that they were trying to send them all back. mr. liebeler. did there come a time when you met lee harvey oswald and his wife, marina? mr. ray. i met them. mr. liebeler. will you tell us the circumstances surrounding your meeting them, where was it, what happened? mr. ray. well, do you want to start from the beginning? mr. liebeler. yes; just tell us the story in your own words as to how you came to meet the oswalds and what happened, what the extent of your contact was. mr. ray. well, i tell you how it happened. this ed harris and his wife that live in georgetown, his wife had seen a magazine article or something about my wife and had gotten in touch and they had gotten acquainted and they had visited us a time or two, you know, and, actually, we knew none of these people at the party before we came over here. we came and we met them over here. mr. liebeler. at the party? mr. ray. no; we met them at a hotel and went to the party with them. mr. liebeler. who were the people that you met? mr. ray. ed harris and his wife. mr. liebeler. you had not met the harrises before you came to dallas to go to the ford party? mr. ray. oh, yes; i say they were the only people we knew before we went to this party. mr. liebeler. the party we are referring to is the party at the home of declan p. ford? mr. ray. yes, and actually the arrangements for us to come along were made from our home. mrs.--ed's wife, mrs. harris--called mrs. ford from our house and found out, you know, when the party was going to be and made arrangements to bring us along, or at least told her that we were coming or something. i don't understand this russian that goes on when they start talking russian. i don't know everything that was said but that's the way we happened to be at the party. we went along with the harrises from georgetown; at least we met them in dallas and went to the party with them and that was the party that was on friday night and we stayed over saturday and we went back to the ford's on saturday night and then some--and visited awhile and stayed over until sunday and sunday afternoon we visited some other people that were at the party. but the only time i had any contact whatsoever with oswald was at the party and frankly, i vaguely remember meeting him because when there's quite a few people at a party like that you don't get acquainted with all of them. i got acquainted with a few but i didn't get acquainted with oswald or his wife. mr. liebeler. do you remember any conversation that you had with oswald at all? mr. ray. nothing at all, no conversation at all, just no more than a handshake or something like that. mr. liebeler. you did not form any impression of him that you can remember at the moment, is that correct? mr. ray. no, i did not. mr. liebeler. do you remember anything about his wife, marina oswald? mr. ray. the only thing i remember about her is when i met her, she was kind of small and she didn't speak any english so there i couldn't have any conversation with her in russian and that's as far as it went. mr. liebeler. did you try to talk to her in english? mr. ray. oh, i might have said a few words but i do not recall. mr. liebeler. it was clear to you that she did not understand english, is that correct? mr. ray. that is right. mr. liebeler. now, did you notice anything peculiar or out of the ordinary about oswald's actions at this party that appeared so to you? mr. ray. well, frankly, i just didn't pay much attention to the guy. i wasn't around him very much. mr. liebeler. did there come a time over the weekend either at the ford party or following the ford party where the oswalds were discussed in your presence? mr. ray. there was a time, yes, sir. mr. liebeler. where was that, do you remember? mr. ray. that was at the home of--i believe their name is meller or miller. mr. liebeler. m-e-l-l-e-r [spelling], would that be right? mr. ray. well, now the lady's name was anna meller and her husband was---- mr. liebeler. would it be t-e-o-f-i-l [spelling]? mr. ray. yes; something like that. mr. liebeler. who was there at this time? mr. ray. of course, we were there, natalie and i and the harrises and anna meller and her husband and it seems like this lady from houston was there. i believe she was from houston. mr. liebeler. do you remember her name? mr. ray. no; i don't now. mr. liebeler. b-i-g-g-e-r-s [spelling]; does that ring a bell with you? mr. ray. what was the first name? mr. liebeler. tatiana. mr. ray. yes, i believe she was there that sunday afternoon. i believe she was. mr. liebeler. was anybody else there; do you remember george bouhe? mr. ray. oh, yeah; george was there. i was trying to think. i got acquainted with george. he's one i got acquainted with. mr. liebeler. do you remember lydia dymitruk being there? mr. ray. well, i might. mr. liebeler. i don't want you to remember if you don't really. mr. ray. well, i don't really right now. i don't really remember. mr. liebeler. tell us what the conversation about the oswalds was to the best of your recollection. mr. ray. the thing that i remember most was george telling us what a nut he was. it seemed that george had tried to help him and i think the fords had tried to help him and maybe the frank rays or some of this group, you know, had tried to help him get adjusted and tried to help mrs. oswald get adjusted to the american way of life and frankly, george bouhe came out and told me he said he was a damn nut. mr. liebeler. did he tell you any specific reasons for his opinion? mr. ray. well, nothing real specific but it seemed that he wasn't too good to his wife. he didn't treat her as they thought he should. he wasn't real good to her. mr. liebeler. did bouhe tell you that oswald was reported to have beaten marina up? mr. ray. i think that came into the conversation, too, and that she had gone and stayed a couple weeks with somebody. i don't know if it was the fords or the rays or who it was but that i think was the situation. mr. liebeler. anyway, as far as you can recall bouhe indicated that he was pretty much at the end of his rope as far as oswald was concerned? mr. ray. yeah. mr. liebeler. he did not have a very high opinion of oswald? mr. ray. no; he did not have a high opinion of oswald. mr. liebeler. did anybody else there express an opinion about oswald along these lines as far as you can remember? mr. ray. well, you know, sitting down at a table having coffee and tea and everybody talks a little but what george said about him impressed me more than anything else that was said. i am sure that the others did have things to say but frankly i was not interested in the guy. mr. liebeler. you don't have any recollection of what anybody else said at this point? mr. ray. at this point i couldn't tell you what anybody else said; no. i am sure there was a discussion among the group. we were having coffee and cake and what-not and the subject came up about the oswalds and that's the way it went. mr. liebeler. do you recall any discussion on the question of whether or not oswald might be a russian agent? mr. ray. i don't know whether that was discussed or not. it seems to me like somebody brought the subject up. it might have been my wife for all i know but we were wondering since he had left the united states and wanted to be a russian citizen and had been over there, the time that he spent in russia, why the hell did they let him back in; you know what i mean? mr. liebeler. the united states you mean? mr. ray. yeah; why did they take him back and how--the question in my mind was how did he get his russian wife out of russia. it just looked odd to me. mr. liebeler. was the question in your mind as to how he got his wife out partly related to the difficulties you had had? mr. ray. i knew the difficulties i had had and of course i have known the relations between the americans and the russians since the war and you know, the cold war and it cools off and it gets hot and i wondered at the time how the hell he got his wife out of russia without so much trouble or maybe he had a lot of trouble getting her out but it did look odd to me. mr. liebeler. was that subject discussed at this time you can remember amongst the group there; did george bouhe offer any opinion on this question? mr. ray. i would say it could have been discussed and i cannot say whether it was or was not, you know that has been quite some time ago and it's hard to remember. i think the whole deal was discussed, you know, pretty well. we might have discussed that. i think we did but i wouldn't say for sure. mr. liebeler. do you remember if there was a conversation going on in russian while you were there or did they speak in english--the people that were at the house? mr. ray. most of it was in english; now i am sure there was some russian conversation going on because ed harris' wife irritates me to death with her russian. if she starts talking to my wife, it's russian and it just--i just get the drift of the conversation and that's all. i mean it is very rude the way she goes about it. she enjoys talking to natalie and natalie enjoys talking to her in russian but it kind of leaves ed and i out when we are together. mr. liebeler. do you remember whether the group came to any conclusion on this question as to whether oswald might have been an agent? i don't want you to testify to something that you don't remember but do you remember whether the point was made that oswald did not appear to have good connections here and he had trouble getting a job and holding a job and he did not appear to be a responsible individual and for these reasons, these reasons would lead you to conclude that he probably was not a russian agent. do you remember any conversation along these lines? mr. ray. there could have been because i believe that was discussed and i believe george bouhe might have said that he was such a nut that the russians would not want him or something like that. mr. liebeler. when you say you believe is that that you have a faint recollection to that effect, is that what you mean when you say you believe? mr. ray. i have a faint recollection of discussing that possibility, see. mr. liebeler. when you say you believe what you are really saying is that it seems likely that this might have been discussed or it is probable that it was discussed but you do not have any firm recollection? mr. ray. no; i do not have any firm recollection about it. mr. liebeler. did you and your wife have any discussions about the oswalds after you left dallas and went back to blossom or to detroit prior to the assassination? mr. ray. i am sure we did but at the time of the assassination i had completely forgotten, you know, that the guy even existed but i am sure we talked about it. mr. liebeler. you don't have any recollection of what your conversation might have been? mr. ray. i know my wife was concerned because they let him back in the country. mr. liebeler. did she tell you why she was concerned? mr. ray. well, she was kind of afraid he might be a russian spy, that they might have sent him back for something. mr. liebeler. she expressed that feeling to you? mr. ray. yes. mr. liebeler. let's go up to the date of the assassination. do you recall any conversations with your wife at that time about oswald's involvement in the assassination or his alleged involvement in the assassination? mr. ray. well, i was working that day, of course, and by the time i got home it was all on television, you know, and they had captured oswald and she had seen his picture on television and she told me that was the guy we met at the party. i said "what guy?" she said, "oh, you know, the guy that married the russian girl and came back over, you know, brought her back." well, of course, i remembered that but she sometimes misunderstands things and i thought possibly that she could be mistaken, see. she told me "that's the guy that killed the president. i saw him on television and they said he is the one that killed the president." well, i still thought perhaps she could be mistaken and so the next morning i had her find these names and addresses of these people and i called this george bouhe and asked him if that was the guy that we thought it was. he said "yes, it was" and we had a short conversation and he told me he had been out to get a newspaper and said it was all in the papers and i could read about it. but, at the time i called him he didn't remember me just right quick. i mean a year had gone by, a year or more had gone by or maybe it wasn't quite a year or something like that but i had to tell him who i was before he remembered me and then of course after he remembered me, well, he told me "yeah, that's the guy." mr. liebeler. did you have any discussion with bouhe as to whether or not bouhe thought that oswald was really guilty or really could have been the man who really did assassinate the president? mr. ray. he said something about that he was trying to figure out how oswald could have been at that place at that time and another place at another time. he couldn't figure how oswald could have been at all those places in that short length of time. mr. liebeler. would you tell us to the best of your recollection what he said? can you remember anything more than that? in other words, at this point bouhe expressed some doubt with the stories? mr. ray. he expressed some doubt that in that way he could not figure how oswald could have been in the building where the gun was fired and then later killed the policeman so many blocks away. i don't know how many blocks away it was and later apprehended in this---- mr. liebeler. texas theatre. mr. ray. movie theater. he was trying to figure out how he got from place to place in a short length of time. there seemed to be a little doubt in his mind at the time i talked to him. mr. liebeler. did he express any doubts as to oswald's involvement based on his judgment of oswald's character? your wife testified and you did, too, to some extent that bouhe was fed up with oswald and did not think very much of him, didn't think him very capable or thought he was no account is the term your wife used. did you have any discussion with bouhe at this time when you talked to him on the phone? mr. ray. i don't know but there was something said about--now, george was trying to justify himself in his association with oswald, see. he said something about that the only thing he was guilty of was trying to help the guy; do you know what i mean? he had tried to help the guy when he first came back and he said, "if that's a crime, i'm guilty." i remember that statement. mr. liebeler. did he express any concern as to his own safety or did he tell you that he thought he was going to have difficulty because of his previous association with oswald? mr. ray. no; he didn't say a word about that. mr. liebeler. do you think his statements about being guilty of trying to help oswald were just an attempt to justify himself in his own mind? mr. ray. i think so; yes. mr. liebeler. did you have any subsequent conversation? have you told us all now you can remember in your telephone conversation with bouhe? mr. ray. well, he said it was all in the paper. "you can read it in the paper", said "it's all in there." mr. liebeler. do you remember if he said anything else? mr. ray. i don't know it has been so long ago that i don't right now; i don't remember anything. mr. liebeler. did you ever talk to bouhe on the telephone again about that? mr. ray. about this deal? mr. liebeler. yes. mr. ray. no; that was the only time. mr. liebeler. have you seen him at any time? mr. ray. haven't seen him since then. mr. liebeler. did you talk to anybody else, or did you talk to anybody else that was at this party about this assassination? mr. ray. saw the harrises, ed harris and his wife. i haven't--now, that's the only two people we've seen. i think mrs. ford wrote natalie a letter. i don't know what the letter said. i wasn't interested but anyway she had tried to get her on the telephone or something and we did discuss this thing in georgetown not too long ago. i had a niece to get married down at kerrville so we had to go down to the wedding and on the way back we stopped and spent a little time at the harrises and that's--of course, we discussed it then. mr. liebeler. did you talk with the harrises about this get-together at meller's that occurred after the ford party at which oswald was discussed? mr. ray. i am sure we did; now, i don't really recall. we discussed the whole durned thing with the harrises and i am sure that that came into the conversation but right now, i don't remember exactly when and how it came about, you know. mr. liebeler. well, during this conversation with the harrises was there any more conversation about oswald's possibility of being a russian agent? mr. ray. that subject always comes up and i am sure it did then. mr. liebeler. can you tell us the best of your recollection what was said about it? mr. ray. no; i cannot because i just don't remember. mr. liebeler. do you remember whether there was any consensus or agreement as to whether oswald probably was or probably was not a russian agent? mr. ray. well, actually i don't think that the harrises think he was a russian agent. mr. liebeler. did they tell you that they did not think he was; how did you get that opinion? mr. ray. if they had told me that they thought he was a russian agent i would have remembered it. do you know what i mean? mr. liebeler. yes; and you don't have any recollection of them ever telling you that they thought he was? (mr. davis returns to the hearing.) mr. ray. no, no. mr. liebeler. or telling you any reasons why they thought he might be? mr. ray. no. mr. liebeler. did you form an opinion of this question as to whether or not he was a russian agent or might be? mr. ray. just from what little i know about it and the conversation that we have been over, i think he needed psychiatric treatments or something. i think he was just a damn nut like george said. of course, you know a lot of times that might be the kind of man that they would want, you know, for a russian agent. mr. liebeler. that is just---- mr. ray. he might have been smarter than we thought or smarter than the people that knew him thought; i don't know. mr. liebeler. that is just your own thought on it? mr. ray. that is my own thoughts on it, see. mr. davis. have you all--i might inject here--have you all gone over the point--did you ever discuss with your wife or the mellers or any of these other people that it was strange about them being able to come out of russia so easily? it was strange about him being able to move about in russia so easily? was it with all of them the consensus that it was unusual; were they somewhat amazed? mr. ray. i don't know whether they were or not but i was amazed and my wife was, too, that he went over there and left this country and denounced his citizenship and then a couple of years later or longer--how long was he over there? anyway, they let him---- mr. davis. going on years. mr. ray. come back and bring his wife with him. that looked kind of ridiculous to me. mr. liebeler. and that question was discussed in your meeting in the meller's house and subsequently discussed between you and your wife, wasn't it? mr. ray. yes. mr. davis. let me ask you this: this group at the ford's place where the russian-born would tend to get together occasionally, has there been very frequent--i mean, have you and your wife gone--i believe this was the first time? mr. ray. this was the first time we ever. mr. davis. did they mention about this having happened fairly frequently before? do you know how often they had been meeting in dallas? mr. ray. it seems like now they kind of get together, you know, somewhere around new year's--christmas or new year's; something like an annual affair for them to get together. mr. davis. did you know--were there any others in this group or did you have any occasion to hear from any others that had a similar story like the oswalds where they had found it that easy to go and come or go out of russia? mr. ray. no, no; see, most of these people are, the way i get it, were russian descent or else they were like--they had married a russian over there or something of that nature, you see. i mean it wasn't everybody there wasn't russian but there was some russian connection with most of them. mr. liebeler. but you heard of no other examples where people had come out of russia as easily as oswald had; is that correct? mr. ray. no. mr. liebeler. you know or did you hear of it? mr. ray. i did not hear. mr. davis. has your wife or you or have you all heard of anyone since the time he came out where it has been easier for people to come and go? i believe your wife mentioned she thought it would be easier to contact her niece if conditions were easing up to that degree. has this proved to be? mr. ray. i don't know; or years ago she tried to call her niece on the telephone and tried or days and finally made the connection and the niece said, "hello," and the line was out like that and she finally gave up. mr. davis. in other words, to your knowledge you have seen no evidence it has been made easier to communicate back and forth? mr. ray. no; fact of the business, my wife's mother had been dead a couple years before we even knew it. mr. davis. how long has this been you received that information? mr. ray. i think she died in ; i know it was a couple years gone by when my wife found out about it. mr. liebeler. was your wife's mother living in stalingrad when she died, do you know? mr. ray. i don't know. she was, i believe, in arzamas; i am not sure that's where she died but that's near stalingrad, some place near stalingrad and that's where at least part of my wife's upbringing, you know, took place, in arzamas. mr. liebeler. do you think now that you have told us about all you know or all you remember about your contact with oswald and the discussion that you had about him? if there is anything you want to add at this point, go right ahead. mr. ray. i think we pretty well covered it. i hope you have. mr. liebeler. we want to thank you very much, mr. ray, for coming down here and i think you have been helpful and i appreciate it very much. mr. ray. well, like i said before, i went to the fbi voluntarily with what information that i had. frankly, i didn't know anything about the guy except what i have told you but i did have the names and addresses of some of these people that knew him and that's why i went to the fbi, because of that. they might contact these people and find out more about it. mr. liebeler. i think they have talked to most of them. mr. ray. i am sure they have. mr. liebeler. thank you very much. testimony of samuel b. ballen the testimony of samuel b. ballen was taken at : p.m., on march , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. liebeler. would you raise your right hand to be sworn, mr. ballen? do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, in the testimony you are about to give? mr. ballen. i do. mr. liebeler. my name is wesley j. liebeler. i believe mr. rankin mentioned in the letter he sent to you last week that i would contact you this week to take your testimony. the commission has authorized me to take your testimony pursuant to authority granted by executive order , dated november , , and joint resolution of congress . copies of those documents have been sent to you as well as a copy of the commission's rules of procedure in the taking of testimony. you did receive those, did you not? mr. ballen. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. we want to ask you about your somewhat limited contacts with lee harvey oswald, and also inquire to some extent about your association with george de mohrenschildt. will you state your full name? mr. ballen. samuel b. ballen. mr. liebeler. what is your address? mr. ballen. midway road. mr. liebeler. in dallas? mr. ballen. dallas . mr. liebeler. what is your employment, sir? mr. ballen. i am a financial consultant, self-employed, and i am senior officer in several corporations. mr. liebeler. included among those corporations is the high plains natural gas co. and electrical log services, inc.? mr. ballen. that's correct. mr. liebeler. you are an american citizen, sir? mr. ballen. yes. mr. liebeler. were you born here in the united states? mr. ballen. yes. mr. liebeler. in dallas? mr. ballen. in new york city. mr. liebeler. when did you move to dallas? mr. ballen. november . mr. liebeler. what is your age, sir? mr. ballen. forty-two. mr. liebeler. would you tell us briefly your educational background? mr. ballen. i went to public schools in new york. attended townsend harris high; attended c.c.n.y.; received a bba degree from c.c.n.y., and then have also taken extension courses at columbia university, manhattan college, nyu graduate school of banking, oklahoma university, and texas a&m. mr. liebeler. what were the graduate courses in, generally? mr. ballen. three fields. money and banking; geology; and petroleum engineering. mr. liebeler. did there come a time when you made the acquaintance of lee harvey oswald? mr. ballen. yes. mr. liebeler. will you tell us the circumstances surrounding that? mr. ballen. in some respects, my memory is still a little bit hazy. my best recollection though is that in the fall of , george de mohrenschildt, a close friend of mine, told me that he and his wife had met an extremely interesting couple who had worked their way from russia here to dallas and fort worth, and that among other problems, that this fellow was in pretty desperate financial straits and needed a job, and would i be willing to see him and try to find employment for him. i said, "yes." and he came down to my office and i spent approximately hours with him. he came down, and i left my office in the southland center with him to go to a meeting at the republic national bank, and walked down with him, and he then left and i believe stated that he was going over to the ymca where he was residing. mr. liebeler. can you fix the date of this meeting with any precision? mr. ballen. i can't. i think it was either the latter part of or the very early part of . i know the particular day was pleasant, because i recall walking down the street not wearing any topcoat, just wearing a regular coat, and that was also true of oswald. mr. liebeler. did oswald have a job at the time he came to talk to you; do you know? mr. ballen. he indicated to me that he was not employed. mr. liebeler. he told you he was living at the ymca in dallas, is that correct? mr. ballen. that's correct. he told me that his--i knew he had a wife and child, and he indicated that his wife was staying with some friends, and his child, but he at that time was working out of the ymca. mr. liebeler. did he tell you where his wife was staying? mr. ballen. no. i would have had some vague idea about that from the de mohrenschildts. mr. liebeler. did you have an idea from de mohrenschildt? mr. ballen. i had the idea that they were either moving into or just coming out of some apartment, and i would have an idea, which is very vague and not too accurate, that this may have been somewhere in the oak cliff region. mr. liebeler. did oswald tell you anything about his previous employment? mr. ballen. just during the course of my trying to be helpful to him and of trying to see what skills he had so that i could try to develop some employment for him. he did say that he had some training in the u.s.s.r., in some area in the field of photography--no, some area in the field of reproduction, but the thing that i was impressed about in talking with him was his lack of any usable training. mr. liebeler. what is the state of your recollection that oswald told you he had received training in photography when he was in russia? mr. ballen. pretty vague, but i had the feeling that he said he may have worked in some capacity, either in a house organ--or a newspaper in the u.s.s.r., and that he did have some training and knew how to use commercial camera equipment and general reproduction equipment. mr. liebeler. did you take any steps to help oswald get a job as a result of his interview with you? mr. ballen. no. during the course of my meeting with him, i started out being attracted somewhat toward him, and i started out having a fairly good impression of the individual, and i also started out feeling very sorry for the chap, knowing some hard times that he had been through, and of wanting to help him. but as this meeting wore on, i just gradually came to the feeling that he was too much of a rugged individualist for me, and that he was too much of a hardheaded individual, and that i probably would ultimately regret having him down at my organization. i was, during the course of this meeting, trying to analyze his training to find a place for him at electrical log services, where we have a large camera and commercial reproduction equipment, but the more i talked to him, while i had a certain area of admiration for him, it still remained that i gradually came to the conclusion, and did not relay this to him in any way, that he was too much of a rugged individualist and probably wouldn't fit in with the team we had down there. so i never did really try to help oswald. i think i told george de mohrenschildt i would search around and see what i could do. mr. liebeler. but in point of fact, you never took any steps after this to try to help him find a job? mr. ballen. my memory was a bit hazy in one respect. i knew i reached my conclusion. i didn't know whether i had called up our general manager down at the log services to see what openings, if any, could be generated, but in checking with the individual, he does not have any memory of my calling him in that regard. mr. liebeler. the other individual being the man in charge of operations at log services? mr. ballen. that's correct. mr. liebeler. what did oswald say to you that led you to this conclusion that you have just expressed? let me ask you a broader question. let me ask you, if you will now, to your best recollection, give the substance of the conversation that you and oswald had that day? mr. ballen. we commenced speaking in pleasantries, and i had known from de mohrenschildt that he had gone to russia, that he had married, and come back. i did not know of any unpleasant association with the marine corps, nor did i know of any attempt on his part to be a defector. i asked him why he had left and gone to russia, and he said that this russian movement was an intriguing thing and he wanted to find out for himself and didn't want to depend upon what the newspapers or visitors had said, and that he had gone there and spent some time there. he gave me the impression somehow that this was in the southern portion of russia. and he said that the place was just boring, that there was hardly anything of any real curiosity or interest there. i had gotten the feeling, and i don't know how specific i can make this, but all of his comments to me about russia were somewhat along a negative vein. he said nothing to me that would indicate that he still had any romantic feeling about russia. his comments to me seemed to be fairly realistic. some time as we talked on, he displayed somewhat the same type of detached objective criticism towards the united states and our own institutions. mr. liebeler. can you remember anything specifically that he said along that line? mr. ballen. i don't believe i can recall anything specific, but there were just during the entire course of this hours, general observations, general smirks, general slurs that were significant to me that he was equally a critic of the united states and of the u.s.s.r., and that he was standing in his own mind as somewhat of a detached student and critic of both operations, and that he was not going to be snowed under by either of the two operations, whether it be the press or official spokesmen. he would have displayed pretty much to me a plague-on-both-your-houses type of viewpoint, but the one thing that greatly started to rub me the wrong way is, as i started to seriously think through possible industrial openings or possible people i could refer him to, and he could see i was really making an effort in this respect, he kept saying, and then he repeated himself a little too often on this, he said to me, "now, don't worry about me, i will get along. don't you worry yourself about me." he said that often enough that gradually it became annoying and i just felt this is a hot potato that i don't think will fit in with any organization that i could refer him to. mr. liebeler. did he ever demonstrate or indicate to you any particular hostility toward any official of the u.s. government? mr. ballen. none whatsoever; none whatsoever. my own subjective reaction is, that the sum total of these hours that i spent with him, i just can't see his having any venom towards president kennedy. mr. liebeler. did president kennedy come up in any way during the course of your discussion? mr. ballen. no; it did not. the sum total of his reaction, limited as it was that i got from this individual, is that this man would have--this is subjective, i can put no concrete support in there, but i would have thought that this is an individual who felt warmly towards president kennedy. mr. liebeler. you drew that inference simply as a general impression based on the hours that you spent conversing with him? mr. ballen. that's correct. mr. liebeler. could you--and you can't pinpoint anything specifically that led you to that conclusion? mr. ballen. no, sir. mr. liebeler. did you have any discussion, or was the name of governor connally mentioned? mr. ballen. no; it was not. mr. liebeler. did oswald manifest any hostilities toward any particular institution of the united states? mr. ballen. yes. i think he had referred sarcastically to some of our religious institutions, or all religious institutions, and i think he referred with some venom and sarcasm to some race prejudices in the united states. i cannot document that with any specific items which were discussed, but it is pretty strongly a general feeling that this had come out during that discussion. mr. liebeler. was it discussed in terms of the negro race problem? mr. ballen. negro and all forms of human hatred. in other words, the meeting that i had with this individual, which was very limited. i had a certain element of attraction towards the man because i felt that this man did express, at least in an intellectual vein, feeling of compassion for mankind generally. mr. liebeler. did he indicate that he was not in accord with policies which had as their end racial prejudice? mr. ballen. yes. in his general categoric manner, he would have felt that this was a form of stupidity as well as a form of injustice. mr. liebeler. was there any specific discussion, as you can recall, of any extremists groups or so-called "hate" groups? mr. ballen. no. mr. liebeler. did you form any impression of the man that would enable you to make a judgment as to the extent to which he would be influenced by racist or hate propaganda? mr. ballen. you will have to make your question more specific. mr. liebeler. do you think that oswald was the kind of person who would be influenced, by propaganda or by people who were associated with, say racist or extremist groups, to engage in any particular kind of activity? you mentioned before, for example, that oswald took the position or expressed the attitude that as far as the soviet union and the united states generally were concerned, it was a sort of plague-on-both-the-houses, he was not going to let anyone substitute their judgment for what he regarded as the basic reality of the situation. did you gain any impression about oswald's attitude toward hate groups? do you think he could have been moved or motivated by them? mr. ballen. i think i understand your question, and there would have been no expression advanced by oswald of contempt for a particular organization. mr. liebeler. did he indicate that he had experienced certain difficulties in securing or holding employment because of his trip to the soviet union? mr. ballen. yes; he said he ran into difficulty, and that he was not ashamed of his background and wasn't going to conceal it, and that in this particular geographic area that he was just finding it hard as heck to gain employment. i could understand that, and i said, "well, let's see what kind of training you have, if you get employment." and i was struck with almost a total lack of any meaningful training other than what he had mentioned which i have already covered. mr. liebeler. did he tell you any specific details of the kind of work he did in the soviet union? mr. ballen. i have the impression that these were menial jobs. i am sure i discussed it with him. i am sure i would have asked him, and i have the impression that he had menial jobs, and that he would have worked in some kind of publication function, and he had learned about camera and reproduction equipment. mr. liebeler. did he tell you how much he was paid? mr. ballen. he did say that the economics there were awfully tight. mr. liebeler. do you recall specifically his mentioning any figure as to what his income was? mr. ballen. no. mr. liebeler. did he indicate in any way that he had received income while he was in the soviet union from sources other than this--his job? mr. ballen. no; he didn't indicate anything like that. i did express a little puzzlement as to how he was able to get out with his wife. mr. liebeler. what did he say about that? mr. ballen. he shrugged that off and said, "well, it's just a matter of sticking with it with the necessary bureaucrats, both russian and the united states, of staying with the necessary bureaucrats to get out; and i got out." i would add this. jeanne de mohrenschildt was making a serious effort to help out socially and economically the oswalds, and she was reporting to us that on given evenings the de mohrenschildts were visiting with the oswalds, and that their whole life was pretty miserable. they were just sitting alone in the apartment and looking at each other and fighting with each other, and that it was necessary to bring these two people out into the fresh air and have them meet people and mingle and otherwise. george asked me and also asked my wife to invite the oswalds to our house for dinner and help these people out. this was a type of thing that we have done quite frequently, but there must have been something in my report to my wife about my meeting with this chap that my wife didn't pick up this suggestion, and never did extend that invitation to the oswalds. in other words, my wife has never met either one of them, but based upon this meeting and the final impressions that i had of this chap is that we just didn't want to be involved with him. he was too independent a thinker. i am not talking on politics now. and my wife never did extend that invitation to them, which she otherwise would have done, as we have done to many, many people who recently moved into dallas from afar. mr. liebeler. can you remember with any great specificity the things that oswald said or did that led you to the conclusion that he was such an independent fellow? mr. ballen. it was his overall mannerism, and he would have, did have, a habit of closing off discussion on a given subject by a shrug of the shoulders; and it was just an overall impression that i ended up with. mr. liebeler. did oswald indicate to you that he had traveled within the soviet union in any way? mr. ballen. i had the impression that he had done considerable traveling there. mr. liebeler. do you remember whether he told you that, or how did you get that information or impression? mr. ballen. i think he told me that he had traveled in the soviet union and finally ended up in a southwestern town and life was just incredibly boring and dismal. mr. liebeler. did you go into any details as to how the life was boring or dismal in the soviet union? mr. ballen. no. this was my first visit with him and i knew he came down to see me in order to talk about a job, and i didn't want to impose on him. mr. liebeler. did you question him--did you have questions in your own mind as to where he obtained the funds to do this traveling? mr. ballen. i had the impression that this was the kind of guy who could travel from one end of the continent to the other with very little money. he was dressed very modestly, and i, at least to me, he did, engender a certain amount of sympathy. in other words, the type of fellow that you would feel sorry for, and if he were hitchhiking, you might buy him a meal or something like that. i just had the feeling that this was a fellow who could get around and make his way and find his way and not require any sum of money to do it. mr. liebeler. is there any other thing that led you to that conclusion? mr. ballen. no; i am sorry. i don't know more specifically. mr. liebeler. did you ever lend oswald any money? mr. ballen. no; i didn't. if at the time he had asked me to loan him money, i would have. but i would say that this would, that the thing that he kept impressing on me to the point where it just rubbed me the wrong way is, that he kept insisting, raising his voice a little bit; "don't you worry about me, i will take care of myself, and i will get myself work, don't you worry about me." telling that too many times to a prospective employer isn't quite the best technique. mr. liebeler. you have testified that oswald told you that he had received some training in the use of photographic equipment when he was in the soviet union. did he mention any other training that he received in the soviet union? mr. ballen. no; i think i discussed a little detail with him about photography, continuous cameras and things like that, and he stated that he could operate most of the machinery we had down at ross avenue. mr. liebeler. did he indicate to you a general comprehension and understanding of that type of machinery? mr. ballen. i am not that familiar technically with the equipment myself to have gone into any explicit detail, but i mentioned different types of machinery, the m- , blueprint machines, repco continuous cameras, and he said yes, he could operate all those machines. mr. liebeler. did you have any discussion concerning his wife, marina? mr. ballen. no. mr. liebeler. did you ever meet marina? mr. ballen. no. mr. liebeler. do you speak russian? mr. ballen. no. mr. liebeler. did oswald ever tell you that he had been in the hospital when he was in the soviet union? mr. ballen. no. mr. liebeler. other than the fact that he stated that life in the soviet union was very boring, did he indicate to you any reason for his return to the united states? mr. ballen. yes; he said that he had gone there to find out what this thing was like. he wanted to find it out for himself. he found out, and now was the time to come back, and that coming back he was running into all the prejudices of the people here who were washing him off because he had taken this plunge and gone on his own initially to the u.s.s.r. mr. liebeler. did you know at that time that he had attempted to renounce his citizenship? mr. ballen. i did not know it, and he did not say anything that would have suggested that. you must bear in mind he came to me to look for a job. mr. liebeler. did he mention the name of the city in which he was employed and lived in the soviet union? mr. ballen. he probably did, and i can't really recall it. i read so much in the newspaper, i don't know on that what is my own memory and what i have read in the newspaper. mr. liebeler. you have read in the newspaper that he lived and was employed in the city of minsk? mr. ballen. that is correct. i would have thought that he would have--my memory is this. he told me he was in a community outside of minsk. that is my best memory, but it is not too good. mr. liebeler. did he tell you what kind of living quarters he had while in the soviet union? mr. ballen. no; i didn't ask him. mr. liebeler. did he tell you anything about meeting and marrying his wife when he was in the soviet union? mr. ballen. no. mr. liebeler. as far as his return to the united states is concerned, you previously testified that you asked oswald how he managed to leave russia, and he said it was just a matter of sticking with the bureaucrats. did he specify hostility towards the bureaucrats or any resentment? mr. ballen. yes; just in the sense that these were fellows who made life uncomfortable and detracted from the personal freedom of the human being. mr. liebeler. did he have that attitude toward both the american and russian authorities? do you remember any specific conversation relating to possible resentment of the united states? mr. ballen. no; i do not. mr. liebeler. do you remember that he did indicate to you that the americans were just as much responsible for delaying his return as russia? mr. ballen. no; i wouldn't have gotten that feeling; no. mr. liebeler. you got the feeling that it was primarily the russians who had delayed his return, is that correct? mr. ballen. well, it was a matter of working then through these bureaucrats and the american bureaucrats. this would be his reaction. mr. liebeler. would you say he expressed more resentment of the american bureaucracy or the russian bureaucracy, or were they about the same? mr. ballen. i would say about equal. mr. liebeler. did you have any discussion with oswald concerning politics? mr. ballen. not in addition to what i have already alluded to, parenthetically. mr. liebeler. did oswald tell you anything about his educational background? about where he had gone to grade school or high school and that sort of thing? mr. ballen. i am sure i questioned him on that, and the ultimate conclusion i came to was that he left--that he lacked educational training. mr. liebeler. did he tell you that he had been employed by a newspaper in new orleans? mr. ballen. i think he told me that his knowledge of reproduction facilities had been refreshened by recent employment in new orleans, and the--in the photographic field, but this employment, i thought in new orleans, would have been in a printing shop rather than a newspaper. mr. liebeler. can you remember any of the details of what he told you about his activities in new orleans? mr. ballen. that would have been the only reference to new orleans, and he said nothing whatsoever about any involvement with any cuban committees or anything like that. i would have the feeling that this was a man who was at that stage a political, had no involvement with any communist group, that he washed his hands pretty much of anyone or any part of the political spectrum. mr. liebeler. you did not know that he was a professed marxist? mr. ballen. he may have--i think i had the feeling that he, to the extent that he could define it, that he was a student of marxism and was a critic of societies along marxist lines. mr. liebeler. were you led to that belief partly by his remarks about religion? mr. ballen. no; i learned that from george de mohrenschildt, and i think oswald would have, somewhere along the line during my interview with him, made statements to reenforce that. mr. liebeler. do you remember what de mohrenschildt told you about oswald before you actually met oswald? mr. ballen. yes; he said that this was a very unusual situation, sir. here is a chap who suddenly appears in the dallas area, and that he had been to russia, went to russia, came back, and has no hatred either for russia or for the united states, and is just a man with no hatred, and by gosh here he appears in the united states, having gotten out of russia with a wife, and that this was an independent and truth seeking young man and very interesting, and george was talking to him at length in russian, and someone just totally unlike anyone else who came back who was either very much pro and very much anti, and this is a fellow with no hatred. mr. liebeler. did de mohrenschildt indicate to you that oswald had no hatred of anything? mr. ballen. that is what--de mohrenschildt had emphasized it to me that his view of this man was that the chap wasn't getting involved with hatred and was outside the cold war on either side and his emotions connected with it. mr. liebeler. was de mohrenschildt's opinion borne out in your mind when you met and talked to oswald? mr. ballen. based on that -hour visit with him, to a certain extent; yes. but i would express it rather than oswald not having hatred, that he would have had a little disdain for both sides. mr. liebeler. you did not get the impression, however, that he was emotionally involved in any significant extent with either of the two sides? would that be a fair statement? mr. ballen. definitely. mr. liebeler. did you also have the impression that oswald would not be influenced against the soviet union by anti-soviet union propaganda that might be disseminated in the country? mr. ballen. definitely he would make the decisions for himself and would consider himself much more of an expert than anyone in the united states, including our government. mr. liebeler. you would say that oswald would not likely be influenced by propaganda of this sort? mr. ballen. he forms his own conclusion in his own way, and he didn't appear to me, either by his use of language or any other reference, to be particularly informed, particularly learned, but he did impress me as a man who was going to make up his own mind in this own way, and these tendencies were so pronounced that i felt i didn't want to involve him in my firm, which means a team operation. mr. liebeler. did oswald appear to be a particularly intelligent person or did you form an opinion as to his intelligence? mr. ballen. i thought he was of above average intelligence, and the unusual thing that struck me as being particularly unusual was the degree to which he would go for self-education and self-improvement. it was this quality--these qualities which attracted him somewhat to me. mr. liebeler. did he appear to be in any way mentally unstable? mr. ballen. appeared to be just a little too much a hard head. mr. liebeler. what makes you say that, mr. ballen? mr. ballen. too much a hard head? mr. liebeler. yes, sir; what do you mean by that? mr. ballen. i--just his general conduct, his general responses, general bearing. he just seemed to be a little too aloof from society, and just seemed to know all things and everything a little too affirmatively, a little too dogmatically, but as far as feeling that he was mentally ill, i didn't come away with that feeling. mr. liebeler. do you remember any specific example of his efforts at self-improvement or self-education that you could give us? mr. ballen. well, he just indicated a wide range of readership, literature, and the fact that, my impression was one of a little curiosity, a chap out of fort worth who would go to the point of reading and becoming familiar with marxian literature just struck me as someone who was displaying more than the normal amount of initiative. mr. liebeler. did you know at that time that he had received marxian literature? mr. ballen. yes; i think i knew even in his offhanded reference to comments on those that he was using marxian terminology. mr. liebeler. you think he had marxian leanings to the extent he understood them to be marxian leanings? mr. ballen. i think he considered himself a marxist, and what exactly his understanding of that philosophy was, i didn't have an opportunity to go into that with him. mr. liebeler. do you remember being interviewed by the fbi about december , , in connection with your acquaintance with oswald? mr. ballen. was that the fbi or the secret service? mr. liebeler. the federal bureau of investigation, agents kesler and mitchell. mr. ballen. yes; i recall being interviewed, yes. mr. liebeler. do you remember that he questioned you whether you were familiar or knew of oswald's marxist leanings? mr. ballen. i had a conversation with them pretty much the same as i have been having with you, and i suppose that question came up. mr. liebeler. do you remember what your answer was? mr. ballen. no, sir; i don't remember what my answer was. mr. liebeler. do you recall that you told the two agents that you were unaware that oswald had marxist leanings, and that in a great deal of the conversation oswald was critical of russia? mr. ballen. the difficulty in this thing is in trying to be objective on a conversation which occurred quite some time ago. in reading the newspapers--all i can say in answer to that is, that i am giving the best answer now to my memory and i gave the best answer then, to my memory? i have greater faith in my response today than in december. mr. liebeler. you are not conscious of any difference in those two answers? mr. ballen. oh, yes; i can see that my answer on that day is not the same as my answer here today. mr. liebeler. assuming that was your answer that day? mr. ballen. if that was my answer that day, that would have been my best memory and best recollection at that time. mr. liebeler. did you know anything about the relationship between oswald and de mohrenschildt? mr. ballen. i knew that george had met this fellow. in the events after november d, the question came up in my own mind how did george meet this fellow. prior to november, i didn't know how george met this fellow. george meets all kinds of individuals. he is a magnet for individuals who are not run-of-the-mill. i knew that george and his wife were making an effort to help out the oswalds, and i think that this effort continued pretty near up until the time when they were leaving for haiti. george and his wife were visiting my home two or three or four times a week, and we played tennis two or three or four times a week. sometimes more than that. and i know that quite frequently they came to our house at : or so in the evening and they would have just come from the oswalds, trying to cheer them up. "and those poor souls are looking at the wall and fighting each other." mr. liebeler. do you remember that on or about april of , there was an attempt made on the life of general walker? mr. ballen. yes. mr. liebeler. did you ever discuss that with george de mohrenschildt? mr. ballen. not in any detail. we may have. george and i would discuss either in a joking way or serious way pretty near everything that occurred. i'm sure we would have discussed that also and made some pleasantry about it, but i don't recall and doubt if i ever discussed it with him in any great---- mr. liebeler. did de mohrenschildt ever mention oswald's name to you in connection with the attempt on walker's life? mr. ballen. none whatsoever. i don't think he ever mentioned it to me. mr. liebeler. you have no recollection that he did? mr. ballen. i do not. mr. liebeler. did de mohrenschildt ever mention to you that oswald owned a rifle? mr. ballen. no. mr. liebeler. did oswald mention in his conversation with you the fact that he was a member of a hunting club while he was in the soviet union? mr. ballen. no. mr. liebeler. was there any mention of any kind of firearms of any kind in that conversation? mr. ballen. no. mr. liebeler. was the time that oswald came to your office the first time that you met him, or had you met him previous to that? mr. ballen. if i had met him previously, it would have been on a sunday morning in the de mohrenschildt's household for a period of time of about minutes, but i am about satisfied, in talking to other people, that the individual i met on that sunday morning was not oswald, but some other stray dog. mr. liebeler. do you remember who this other stray dog was? mr. ballen. i don't know his name. this was someone who had worked his way here either from hungary or bulgaria. mr. liebeler. and subsequently disappeared from the scene? mr. ballen. i don't know his name. this was one of the individuals de mohrenschildt had latched on to for a period of or or weeks. mr. liebeler. were you surprised when you learned that oswald had been arrested in connection with the assassination of president kennedy? mr. ballen. when i first heard of oswald's arrest, i didn't realize that this was the chap i had met. it only dawned upon me about or hours later that this was the chap i met. i told my wife that evening that there must have been some mistake, that i didn't believe that chap was capable of this kind of thing, and she said, what do you mean? she said they picked him up and got the gun. i said oswald wasn't that sort of guy. i told my wife that if you lined up individuals, the one person who would stand out as being suspicious or strange would be lee harvey oswald, but i was very surprised when oswald was arrested. mr. liebeler. did you have any further conversations along that line with your wife? mr. ballen. well, as this story developed day by day, we would naturally discuss it. mr. liebeler. do you still have the same view that you expressed to your wife when you first learned of the assassination? mr. ballen. i want to read the report that i assume the warren commission will ultimately publish. the circumstantial evidence as reported in the press is overwhelming, to say the least, but there remains a shadow of skepticism in my mind, and i am looking forward to seeing the published report. mr. liebeler. it would certainly be fair to say, however, would it not, mr. ballen, that you at no time prior to the assassination had any reason to believe that oswald was capable or would be inclined to commit an act of this sort, is that correct? mr. ballen. that is correct. mr. liebeler. do you know of any contact between oswald and jack ruby? mr. ballen. none whatsoever. mr. liebeler. when did you first meet george de mohrenschildt? mr. ballen. approximately , maybe . mr. liebeler. have you had any conversation with de mohrenschildt since this assassination? mr. ballen. only through the mails. mr. liebeler. you have corresponded with him since the assassination? mr. ballen. yes. mr. liebeler. did you write about the assassination? mr. ballen. only in a very guarded way, because i understood that mails in haiti are subject to scrutiny, and i didn't know what his environment was down there, so i only corresponded with him in a very guarded way. mr. liebeler. can you tell me in general what you wrote to him? mr. ballen. i made no reference to the assassination directly. i said in one letter that i wanted to hear from him. i was--i wanted to know that he was okay. i didn't use those words in the letter, but he understood what i was asking him. and i said it was a shame that he had to leave dallas, that if he and jeanne had remained here, that possibly this never would have happened, because they were the only people who were trying to bring this closed mind out into the open air. and i received one reply back from george's wife, and she thanked me for what she thought were kind sentiments. subsequently he chided me a little bit, and i again wrote to him and let him know i wondered how he was getting along. and he wrote back and said, "i am fearful about you, all kinds of race riots and assassinations in dallas, but how are you getting along? let us hear from you." subsequently, as you know, his wife's daughter and son-in-law were guests in my house for weeks, and so i learned from them about george and his wife, and i am about due another letter in the next week or so. mr. liebeler. did you keep copies of the letters you wrote to him? mr. ballen. no, sir. mr. liebeler. do you still have the letters he wrote to you? mr. ballen. no; i first started to save his letters when he and his wife walked through central america, and this was a collection of letters, but i am not a letter saver. but i did save them, saved them until he returned from his trip and gave them all to him, and those are the only letters that i have ever saved. mr. liebeler. you mentioned de mohrenschildt's daughter-in-law? mr. ballen. well, his wife's daughter. mr. liebeler. his wife's daughter? mr. ballen. that's right. mr. liebeler. what are their names? mr. ballen. rags and chris bogoiavlensky-kearton. and the de mohrenschildts call them buggers. mr. liebeler. you say that rags and chris stayed at your house for a period of time? mr. ballen. yes. mr. liebeler. how long, approximately? mr. ballen. about weeks. mr. liebeler. they originally resided in anchorage, alaska, is that correct? mr. ballen. well, that is where they formerly resided; yes. mr. liebeler. have they permanently moved from anchorage? mr. ballen. your guess is as good as mine is. i received a letter from him this morning. they are in philadelphia on their way to new york. mr. liebeler. do you know whether or not these two people, rags and chris, ever knew lee harvey oswald or marina oswald? mr. ballen. they say they had not, and in thinking through the chronology of events, i am satisfied that they did not. there was some confusion in my mind in my interview with the fbi about the individual who rags and chris did know, and whom they went out of their way to try to help. they drove him to east texas once and to a timber farm. mr. liebeler. was this the other person whom you described a little while back as another stray dog? mr. ballen. yes. mr. liebeler. while rags and chris stayed at your house, did you have any discussions with them as to what the de mohrenschildts had said about the assassination? mr. ballen. they were very upset that george and jeanne were publicly stating in port-au-prince that the fbi had assassinated kennedy, and that oswald was a patsy, and we were very upset because they apparently had no basis for such a statement, and it wasn't very wise for them to be banding about. mr. liebeler. am i correct in understanding you to say that rags and chris reported to you that de mohrenschildt and his wife were saying publicly in port-au-prince that the fbi was responsible for the assassination of kennedy and oswald was a patsy? mr. ballen. they told me that they stated that at a reception for members of the foreign diplomatic corps in port-au-prince. mr. liebeler. did he tell you when that reception was? mr. ballen. it would have been while chris and rags were in haiti. mr. liebeler. did rags and chris tell you they heard de mohrenschildt make this remark? mr. ballen. that was the impression i had, but i couldn't answer your question directly. mr. liebeler. will you fix for me more specifically, if you can, the dates that rags and chris were in port-au-prince? mr. ballen. this is march. i believe that rags and chris came through my house possibly the first week of december . they stayed at my house one night. we had quite a bit of snow that night. they had come through in a mad rush from alaska. they left florida for haiti, and they left haiti about a week prior to showing up at my house. mr. liebeler. when did they show up at your house again for the second time? mr. ballen. they left my house sundays ago, and they would have been at my house a total of weeks. they would have arrived at my house at about march , something like that. they would have arrived at my house march , and left march , more or less. mr. liebeler. will you state for us, as best you can recall, the conversations that you had with rags and chris concerning these remarks allegedly made by de mohrenschildt while they stayed at your house. mr. ballen. this information was brought to me by rags and chris that they were very much upset about it. and i told rags that probably all of george's mail was being intercepted in and out, and that i felt that sooner or later he would be called before the warren commission. the fbi had already interviewed me, i told rags, and that distressed him a little bit that the fbi was probably intercepting his mail and probably had a tail on him. he thought i was kidding, and i said, no; that this was a pretty serious item and that probably he was under surveillance, and so he then took the initiative to call the fbi and said if they wanted to see him, he was out there, and he would be leaving for parts unknown, and so they came out to my house and interviewed him. mr. liebeler. do you know whether rags told the fbi about the remarks that de mohrenschildt was alleged to have made? mr. ballen. i do not. i was out of the house when the fbi agent was there, but i kept myself elsewhere in that building, not in the room where they were. mr. liebeler. do you know the name of the agent who came out? mr. ballen. he was one of the agents who interviewed me from california. had a very nice tan, but i don't know his name. mr. liebeler. one of the two agents that interviewed you when? mr. ballen. about march th or th. mr. liebeler. the interview that you have just referred to concerns your acquaintanceship with de mohrenschildt? mr. ballen. that's correct. mr. liebeler. would it refresh your recollection if i advised you that the names of the agent that interviewed you were w. james wood and raymond p. yelchek? mr. ballen. the gentleman who came out to my house was mr. wood. mr. liebeler. it was mr. wood that interviewed rags, is that correct? mr. ballen. that's correct. mr. liebeler. did rags discuss with you the interview after the agent had left? mr. ballen. no. mr. liebeler. did rags tell you anything about his conversations with de mohrenschildt after de mohrenschildt had allegedly made this remark that the fbi was responsible for the assassination of the president? mr. ballen. just to the extent that he or chris had protested vigorously on politics generally with george, and as i had already known before rags came to my house, the visit in haiti had deteriorated into quite a personality clash. i had gotten a letter from george which showed that he was very critical on personal grounds of rags. mr. liebeler. why was de mohrenschildt critical of rags, do you remember? mr. ballen. these are personal matters, and i am just asking a question now. is it within the realm of your interest? these are really personal matters between one individual and a somewhat removed son-in-law, a son-in-law of his wife, and, so, i wrote back to george and said that his anger was only natural, that the navajos had a taboo against sons seeing their mother-in-law in pains of having their eyes removed, and maybe the navajos know what they are talking about. but to answer your question, the discussion in that matter was on a personal matter, and i really do not think it has anything--any bearing here. if you want me to discuss it, i will. mr. liebeler. no; if you represent to me that the differences were of a purely personal matter, that is sufficient for me. mr. ballen. with only one exception, and that is that george, by his overall nature, is leaning to left center, and rags, by his overall nature, leans to the right of center, and just among other things this was one of the sources of some conflict. mr. liebeler. they had political differences, in other words, also? mr. ballen. in their overall perspective; yes. mr. liebeler. have you told us everything that you can remember about your conversations with rags concerning these statements by de mohrenschildt that the fbi was responsible for the assassination? tell us everything about that that you can remember, either about your conversation with rags, or what rags told you about his conversation with de mohrenschildt, and the reactions of other people to de mohrenschildt's statements. mr. ballen. he or chris said that the american embassy down there was very disturbed that george, at a cocktail party possibly run by, well, i think by someone in the foreign corps there, whether it be the french, that george or jeanne had made this statement, and it was a foolish thing for him to say and a distressing thing, and i think also at that party there was a negro emissary from one of the newly free republics in africa who told the haitians that if haiti is the result of years of freedom, he would like to go back to french rule. mr. liebeler. did rags specifically mention the names of anybody else who was at this party, that you can remember? mr. ballen. no; i don't think so. and if he had, it wouldn't rest with me. this was one of numerous cocktail parties down there. i had the impression, from what rags said, that this was george's statement and was known to the american embassy down there. mr. liebeler. do you remember what rags said about that? mr. ballen. that it was distressing to the american embassy, and that george and jeanne were kind of a thorn in the side of the american embassy. mr. liebeler. did rags indicate whether or not de mohrenschildt had been interviewed by the fbi while he was living in port-au-prince? mr. ballen. yes; george had said to me in one of his letters that he had had a previous visit with the fbi, and then subsequently mr. wood--was that his name? mr. liebeler. mr. wood was the gentleman who interviewed rags. mr. ballen. he subsequently; yes, subsequently i believe mr. wood indicated that he had gone down there and also had met george. mr. liebeler. mr. wood indicated that to you at some point in his interview of you, is that correct? mr. ballen. no; after his interview with me he indicated to chris and rags that he had just the day before or days before seen george and jeanne previously at the american embassy at port-au-prince and they were looking fine. but prior to that, much prior to that, i had written to george and told him that i had received a visit from the fbi inquiring about him. and he wrote back to me and said that he also had a previous visit from the gray flannel suit boys. mr. liebeler. he didn't tell you any details of his conversation with the fbi? mr. ballen. no. mr. liebeler. based on your knowledge of de mohrenschildt and your knowledge of de mohrenschildt's relations with oswald, do you have any reason whatsoever to believe that de mohrenschildt could have been involved in the assassination in any way? mr. ballen. none whatsoever. mr. liebeler. have you discussed this matter with anybody? mr. ballen. would you make your question a little more specific? mr. liebeler. have you discussed with anybody the possibility of de mohrenschildt's possible involvement in any way in the assassination? mr. ballen. only to the extent that on november , when i realized that i had known oswald and i realized how i had met him, my wife and i then said, how in heck did george meet him and that george had better have a good answer to that one. and during the ensuing months i have made inquiries of the russian colony here and kind of came to the understanding that george had met him through george bouhe. mr. liebeler. did you speak to mr. bouhe about that? mr. ballen. no; i haven't seen george bouhe. mr. liebeler. do you remember who told you that de mohrenschildt and oswald had met through bouhe? mr. ballen. it would have either been declan ford or natasha voshinin. mr. liebeler. did you discuss with any of these people the possibility that de mohrenschildt might have had something to do with the assassination? mr. ballen. no. mr. liebeler. have you heard anybody else discuss that question? mr. ballen. no; it is question that to us would be so absurd; that is, the first time i have heard that question raised is today. mr. liebeler. yet you did say to your wife, as you have just testified, when you heard that, when you recalled that oswald was the man that de mohrenschildt had introduced you to, you said to your wife de mohrenschildt had better have a good answer as to how he met oswald; is that correct? mr. ballen. that is correct. mr. liebeler. in your letters with de mohrenschildt or through the contact that you had with de mohrenschildt through rags and chris, did you learn what the last contact was that de mohrenschildt had with oswald prior to the assassination? mr. ballen. no; this was not discussed with any of them. i have the feeling that the contacts would have been fairly continuous up to their leaving dallas for haiti months ago. mr. liebeler. you don't know that oswald and de mohrenschildt corresponded after de mohrenschildt left for haiti? mr. ballen. i do not. mr. liebeler. can you think of any other matter about which you might have knowledge, or anything else that you can think of that you think should be brought to the attention of the commission in connection with this matter? mr. ballen. i would only add that in my opinion, george is an extremely discerning person, and while right now his emotions are kind of tensed up, not because of politics, but because of his personal life and finances and things concerning prior marriages and his children, and consequently his behavior and conduct right now might not be the best, but despite that, he is an extremely intelligent and fine person and i would think that he should be in a position to contribute as much as anyone on the type of person that lee harvey oswald was. george was speaking the language. there was a rapport. they were both familiar with the same geography, and george and his wife were befriending him. i would think george could give a pretty good personality sketch and political sketch on lee harvey oswald. mr. liebeler. do you have any reason to believe that there is any truth in the remark that de mohrenschildt was alleged to have made concerning the fbi's involvement in the assassination and oswald's being a patsy. mr. ballen. do i have any reason to believe that? mr. liebeler. yes. mr. ballen. no, sir; i have no reason to believe that. i would only add that if there is one faint line of skepticism still in my mind about lee harvey oswald, and if i were to draw up alternative possibilities using my wildest imagination and draw up a list of , other possibilities, i suppose included in that , might be some unofficial cabal of the fbi, but the answer to your question is "no." mr. liebeler. did rags or chris indicate to you whether or not either of the de mohrenschildts had stated any reason for their belief that the fbi was involved? let me ask you preliminarily, did rags or chris indicate that de mohrenschildt really believed that fact that he was alleged to have uttered? mr. ballen. they indicated that in de mohrenschildt's emotional state, that apparently this was a sentiment they arrived at. mr. liebeler. now let's go back to the preceding question. were there any reasons expressed by de mohrenschildt for this belief? mr. ballen. no; because rags and chris said this is a madness. that there are no reasons, and this is a madness. mr. liebeler. had de mohrenschildt expressed any reason as to why he believed this? mr. ballen. none were expressed to me; no, sir. mr. liebeler. can you think of anything else that you want to add? mr. ballen. no; i don't believe so. mr. liebeler. thank you very much, mr. ballen. testimony of mrs. lydia dymitruk the testimony of mrs. lydia dymitruk was taken on march , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. albert e. jenner, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. jenner. i am albert jenner. mrs. dymitruk, will you stand to be sworn, please? i am about to take your testimony by deposition. do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mrs. dymitruk. i do. mr. jenner. thank you. be seated please. mrs. dymitruk, i am albert e. jenner, jr. i am a member of the staff counsel and consultant for and to the commission appointed by the president of the united states to investigate the assassination of president kennedy. now this is a commission appointed pursuant to executive order of the president of the united states, mr. lyndon b. johnson, no. , dated november , , and joint resolution of the congress of the united states no. . have you received a letter from j. lee rankin, the general counsel for the commission, asking if you would come here and depose or have your deposition taken? mrs. dymitruk. yes; i have. mr. jenner. and included with that letter were copies of the executive order and the resolution to which i have made reference? mrs. dymitruk. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and, pursuant to that request, as a lot of other fine american citizens, you are appearing voluntarily here this morning? mrs. dymitruk. yes; i am. mr. jenner. as it appears from the executive order and the resolution, the commission is investigating all the circumstances we can obtain respecting and relating to the assassination of president john f. kennedy and also the subsequent death of lee oswald, and persons involved in those two unfortunate events. and it is our information that you have some possible information that might help us with respect to marina oswald and lee oswald, and i should like to question you about that. mrs. dymitruk. yes, sir; i am ready. mr. jenner. you seem a little excited. why don't you sit back and relax, pull your chair around and be comfortable. nothing's going to happen to you. mrs. dymitruk. i'm not afraid. mr. jenner. your name is lydia dymitruk? mrs. dymitruk. yes. mr. jenner. and do i correctly pronounce your name? mrs. dymitruk. yes, sir; that's all right. mr. jenner. and it is spelled [spelling] l-y-d-i-a. and dymitruk is [spelling] d-y-m-i-t-r-u-k? mrs. dymitruk. uh-huh. mr. jenner. you live at - / th street in fort worth? mrs. dymitruk. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and i'm not going to ask you if fort worth is a suburb of dallas--because i understand that would offend you. mrs. dymitruk. yes, sir [laughter]. mr. jenner. but it is a large texas city about, what-- or miles from here? mrs. dymitruk. yes, sir; i like it very much. mr. jenner. oh, it's a splendid town. you're employed at the neiman-marcus store in fort worth? mrs. dymitruk. yes, sir. mr. jenner. i understand that's a beautiful store. mrs. dymitruk. it is--it is beautiful store and nice place to work--and i like it. mr. jenner. how long have you resided in fort worth? mrs. dymitruk. how long i'm in fort worth? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. dymitruk. let me see--i think it was from august. mr. jenner. of what year? mrs. dymitruk. last year. mr. jenner. ? mrs. dymitruk. --yes. mr. jenner. all right. and where have you resided prior to august ? mrs. dymitruk. why? mr. jenner. where? you came to fort worth in august , did you say? mrs. dymitruk. yeah; yeah. mr. jenner. from where? mrs. dymitruk. from dallas. mr. jenner. from dallas? mrs. dymitruk. yes, sir. mr. jenner. you had been a resident of dallas up to that time? mrs. dymitruk. yes, sir. mr. jenner. how long had you been a resident of dallas? mrs. dymitruk. oh, about years--and , months. mr. jenner. and from where had you come when you came to dallas? mrs. dymitruk. from belgium--brussels. mr. jenner. are you a native of belgium? mrs. dymitruk. yes, sir; i am a citizen of belgium. mr. jenner. you are a citizen---- mrs. dymitruk. born in soviet union. mr. jenner. i might occasionally have to ask what might be considered personal questions but i'm not merely curious--i'm seeking information. mrs. dymitruk. that's okay. mr. jenner. what is your age? mrs. dymitruk. thirty-seven. mr. jenner. thirty-seven. are you married? mrs. dymitruk. no, sir. mr. jenner. have you ever been married? mrs. dymitruk. yes, sir. mr. jenner. in this country or in belgium or in russia? mrs. dymitruk. i was married in belgium. mr. jenner. married in belgium? mrs. dymitruk. yes. mr. jenner. did your husband come with you to this country? mrs. dymitruk. he came first to united states, and i came afterward. mr. jenner. all right. tell me how and the circumstances of your coming from russia, where you were born, to belgium. mrs. dymitruk. in , we were kidnapped from the germans during the war and brought to germany--dusseldorf. mr. jenner. was this your parents and you? mrs. dymitruk. no; just sister--an older sister and i and that's all. we are separated from the family. mr. jenner. and the german army took you to dusseldorf? mrs. dymitruk. yes. mr. jenner. and then you were freed by the advancing allied armies, essentially? mrs. dymitruk. the americans. mr. jenner. the americans? mrs. dymitruk. yes. mr. jenner. all right. and you and your sister went to belgium, did you? mrs. dymitruk. yes; . after the war. mr. jenner. now, my arithmetic is very bad. how old were you then? mrs. dymitruk. in ? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. dymitruk. oh, . mr. jenner. all right. so you were about years old when you were captured by the germans? mrs. dymitruk. yes. mr. jenner. where did you live in russia when you were captured by the germans? mrs. dymitruk. rostov. mr. jenner. [spelling] r-o-s-t-o-v? mrs. dymitruk. yes. mr. jenner. or is that "o-w"? mrs. dymitruk. no; it's "v". mr. jenner. did you have any brothers? mrs. dymitruk. no. mr. jenner. just yourself and your sister were the only children? mrs. dymitruk. and a little sister--she was born after the war, in . so, i haven't seen her. mr. jenner. your parents are still in russia as far as you know? mrs. dymitruk. they are; yeah. mr. jenner. were either of your parents active politically in russia? mrs. dymitruk. active politically? mr. jenner. yes; was your father an active member of the communist party, for example? mrs. dymitruk. i think so. mr. jenner. were you? mrs. dymitruk. no. mr. jenner. is your husband still in this country? mrs. dymitruk. i don't know. mr. jenner. you don't? mrs. dymitruk. we were divorced for, i think, years ago-- - / years ago. i don't know where he is. mr. jenner. i take it for part of this time at least--was he an american? mrs. dymitruk. no; he was from white russia. mr. jenner. white russia? mrs. dymitruk. yes, sir. mr. jenner. you were married in belgium, were you? mrs. dymitruk. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and he preceded you to this country? mrs. dymitruk. yes. mr. jenner. did he settle here in the dallas area? mrs. dymitruk. yes; he settled for awhile. and--uh--he never settled down in same place. he always traveled all over united states to find a better place to live. but i like here, and i stay here. mr. jenner. what was his business or occupation? mrs. dymitruk. his occupation? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. dymitruk. he was a draftsman. mr. jenner. all right. is he now an american citizen? mrs. dymitruk. i heard yes. mr. jenner. i see. and you certainly are? mrs. dymitruk. not yet. mr. jenner. oh, you're not yet? mrs. dymitruk. no. mr. jenner. what status are you? mrs. dymitruk. sir? mr. jenner. what is your status? have you applied? mrs. dymitruk. i applied years ago when i came to this country that i would like to be american citizen. i can read, i can speak, but i can't write. so that's why i have to go to school first. mr. jenner. oh, to write english? mrs. dymitruk. yes. to have examinations you have to learn writing english. mr. jenner. i see. but you are doing that? mrs. dymitruk. oh, yes; i study at home. mr. jenner. all right. mrs. dymitruk. and the constitution of the united states. mr. jenner. oh, yes; great document! mrs. dymitruk. yes; i think so. mr. jenner. were any children born of your marriage? mrs. dymitruk. no children. mr. jenner. do you know a lady by the name of anna meller? mrs. dymitruk. yes. mr. jenner. sometimes pronounced "miller"? mrs. dymitruk. yes. mr. jenner. tell me your acquaintance with anna meller. how did it come about? mrs. dymitruk. when i came to united states---- mr. jenner. wait a minute. what year was that? mrs. dymitruk. i think it was . mr. jenner. all right. you came to the united states and you came to dallas? mrs. dymitruk. yes, sir. mr. jenner. you joined your husband here? mrs. dymitruk. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and you became acquainted with anna meller? mrs. dymitruk. not through him. mr. jenner. all right. mrs. dymitruk. through george bouhe. mr. jenner. george bouhe? mrs. dymitruk. yes. mr. jenner. i met him the other day. monday, as a matter of--what is today? yes, monday. george bouhe--he's a resident here in dallas, a man who takes a great interest in all russian emigre people, and he tried to organize a little church, did he not? mrs. dymitruk. well, he helps everybody i know. mr. jenner. yes. he's a short, bald-headed man? mrs. dymitruk. yes. he's not just to help russian people, he helps everybody--germans, belgians, everybody. mr. jenner. he's a generous man? mrs. dymitruk. he just like to help. that's all---- mr. jenner. he's bouncy and vigorous. all right. i interrupted you. go ahead. mrs. dymitruk. that's okay. mr. jenner. your acquaintance with anna meller? mrs dymitruk. yes; i met her at george's house---- mr. jenner. you met her where? mrs. dymitruk. at george bouhe's house. mr. jenner. i see. mrs. dymitruk. and, since then, once in while i see her in church or i go visit her at home. mr. jenner. all right. what church is that? mrs. dymitruk. it's the russian church. mr. jenner. russian orthodox church? mrs. dymitruk. russian orthodox church. yes. mr. jenner. do you recall the name of it? saint somebody or other? mrs. dymitruk. i don't know the name because i go to both churches. one is father dimitri's church on newton avenue. i went there and few times i went to george bouhe--but i don't know the name. i don't know if it's his name or not. i don't know; really. that's his church and he just likes everybody to go there--but i prefer to go to this one--father dimitri's church. mr. jenner. all right. mrs. dymitruk. so, once in while, i see anna meller at a party somewhere or when i'm in dallas, i visit with her and her husband. mr. jenner. in their home? mrs. dymitruk. yes. mr. jenner. in , you were living in dallas? mrs. dymitruk. ; yeah. mr. jenner. you had an apartment of your own at that time? mrs. dymitruk. yes. mr. jenner. and where was that? mrs. dymitruk. it was on mckinney avenue. mr. jenner. mckinney? mrs. dymitruk. mckinney avenue. yes. palm gardens apartments. mr. jenner. and was there an occasion when there was an interchange between you and mrs. meller with respect to the possibility of your befriending or harboring another lady--taking somebody into your home--your apartment? mrs. dymitruk. no. mr. jenner. no? mrs. dymitruk. no. mr. jenner. was there any conversation at any time between you and mrs. meller about the possibility of your taking a lady into your home temporarily? mrs. dymitruk. well, i couldn't take in my home because i got just one little room. i couldn't take. but it was once a conversation--i remember it--that marina oswald, she was looking to live with somebody in a house, or not to be by herself, because she was separated from her husband. mr. jenner. separated? mrs. dymitruk. yes. it was some kind of conversation that i ought to help her, or something, but i didn't know her in that time. mr. jenner. had you heard of her at that time? mrs. dymitruk. i heard about her, yes; but i haven't met her. mr. jenner. from whom? mrs. dymitruk. it was from anna meller. anna meller and george bouhe. both of them. mr. jenner. told you about---- mrs. dymitruk. about, yes. that she's separated from her husband and she are looking for--uh--to help--for somebody can help her to find a living or somewhere. but she was at that time somewhere living with somebody, but i don't know with whom. mr. jenner. i see. did george bouhe or mrs. meller then tell you about this lady? mrs. dymitruk. oh, yes; she told me--yes. mr. jenner. what did she--what did they tell you about her? mrs. dymitruk. i visit her on sunday once and--uh--she told me that marina was in her apartment for a week. mr. jenner. had lived with mrs. meller a week? mrs. dymitruk. with mrs. meller; yes. and that she went back to her husband and that she called, that was on sunday, and she cried that her baby is very ill and the husband he won't go to the hospital. mr. jenner. the husband would not take them to the hospital? mrs. dymitruk. the baby to the hospital or to see a doctor. mr. jenner. uh-huh. mrs. dymitruk. and she asked me---- mr. jenner. now, mrs. meller asked you? mrs. dymitruk. mrs. meller; yes. she asked me if i want to go and see her and take that baby to the hospital or to the doctor because i've got my own transportation. and i told her on sunday, i don't want to go. so--and i thought about it on monday and i think, "well, i don't know. if something happened to that baby, then it's my fault. i better go." so, on tuesday was my day off and so anna meller she give me the address and she says, "if you can go--if you go to her and see her, could you bring the books?" they borrowed a dictionary--english dictionary--hers and george bouhe's--dictionaries. i said, "well, okay." mr. jenner. excuse me. mrs. meller asked you that if you went to the oswalds, would you please bring with you---- mrs. dymitruk. yes. mr. jenner. english-language and russian-language dictionaries---- mrs. dymitruk. well, they were english. mr. jenner. english dictionaries that the mellers had; that you would then bring them---- mrs. dymitruk. to her. mr. jenner. to mrs. oswald? mrs. dymitruk. no. those books were at marina's house. mr. jenner. i see. mrs. dymitruk. there was two books. one, george gave it to her; and other one, anna meller gave it to her. mr. jenner. and they were both english-language dictionaries? mrs. dymitruk. yes; english-russian. mr. jenner. english-russian? mrs. dymitruk. yes. so, she asked me to bring it back--those books. mr. jenner. uh-huh. mrs. dymitruk. so, it was on tuesday early in the morning---- mr. jenner. tuesday? mrs. dymitruk. tuesday. mr. jenner. i thought you said thursday? mrs. dymitruk. no; tuesday is my day off. mr. jenner. excuse me. mrs. dymitruk. and on tuesday i went to marina's house--i found her house--and---- mr. jenner. was she at home? mrs. dymitruk. at first, i couldn't find her at all. i went, first, to see the landlady, and i talked to her for a minute--maybe or minutes--and i ask her where she lives, in which apartment. there was so many apartments--some empty--and, you know, i just couldn't find her. so, she showed me where to go up to find her. so, i came there, i knocked on door and she came. and i asked her if she was marina oswald and she said, "yes." mr. jenner. is that the first time you ever met marina oswald? mrs. dymitruk. that's the first time. i think was the first time. the first i remember. mr. jenner. okay. mrs. dymitruk. she said, "well, yes?" and i said to her, "i hear that your baby is sick. anna meller told me that your baby's very sick and you need help. and maybe i can help you to bring that baby to the hospital." "oh," she said, "my husband, he's against it and i'm in trouble with him. i don't know what to do." and i said, "where is he?" "well, he's working." i said, "well, so long as he's working, we can go to the hospital." i said, "do you have a doctor of your own?" she said, "well, i don't know. it was some kind of doctor before, but i don't know." i said, "well, okay. let's go to the hospital." mr. jenner. were you speaking in russian? mrs. dymitruk. yes. mr. jenner. and, i take it, you have a fluent command of the russian language--you speak russian well? mrs. dymitruk. oh, yes. mr. jenner. and do you have an impression as to marina? did she speak russian well? mrs. dymitruk. yes. mr. jenner. all right. go ahead. mrs. dymitruk. so--and she said that the baby had ---- mr. jenner. fever? mrs. dymitruk. fever. and i said--it was some kind of cold weather--"you had better put some warm clothes--and in the car it's warm, so we go to the hospital so they see that baby." she said, "well, all right." so, it was about o'clock or : ---- mr. jenner. in the morning? mrs. dymitruk. in the morning. i went to the parkland hospital. mr. jenner. all right. now, we'll just hesitate a minute. did you enter the apartment? mrs. dymitruk. yes. mr. jenner. and tell us what you observed as to the conditions around the apartment. how she was dressed; whether you thought they might or did have funds, or whether they were poor; what did she look like? you know. mrs. dymitruk. uh--i think she was all right. and house was clean. and it was, i mean, it was nice apartment. i lived in much worse apartment when i came to united states--so---- mr. jenner. so, she was neat, the apartment was neat and clean---- mrs. dymitruk. yes. mr. jenner. and she was neat and clean? mrs. dymitruk. yes. mr. jenner. and, i take it, you had, at that moment, a good impression of her? mrs. dymitruk. yes. mr. jenner. and what sex was this baby--girl or boy? mrs. dymitruk. it was a girl. mr. jenner. a little girl. about how old? mrs. dymitruk. (gesturing with hands.) baby couldn't walk. i don't know. mr. jenner. could not walk? all right. that's really what i was getting at. she was carrying the baby in her arms? mrs. dymitruk. yes. mr. jenner. could you recall a little more clearly what she said about her husband? that is, was she having difficulty with him or were they getting along well--or what was your impression in that respect? mrs. dymitruk. well, i haven't seen him at all--so, i couldn't say anything---- mr. jenner. i know, but from what she said, mrs. dymitruk? mrs. dymitruk. oh, that's what she said about her husband--that he's against the hospital and against the doctors because he can't afford to pay the bills. mr. jenner. i see. mrs. dymitruk. so, i said to her at the parkland hospital you don't have to pay anything or maybe something--i don't know. so, i took her to the hospital with her baby. mr. jenner. you went to the parkland hospital here in dallas? mrs. dymitruk. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and you drove marina and her child? mrs. dymitruk. yes. mr. jenner. okay. mrs. dymitruk. so, we come to the hospital emergency room, they checked the baby, fever , they give some little medicine for the temperature to go down, and they said, "i'm sorry, we can't help you; we don't have a children's doctor here." mr. jenner. do not have a children's doctor? mrs. dymitruk. no; i was little bit surprised because they deliver babies over there every day so many and they don't have a children's doctor. mr. jenner. yeah. mrs. dymitruk. and i said, "well, what we can do right now? i don't know what to do with the baby now." "well, if you can come in the evening." mr. jenner. the doctor or the attendant said---- mrs. dymitruk. that was the nurse. and she said, "well, in the evening, it will be a doctor for the children." i said, "is it possible to find somebody else right now?" because the baby couldn't breathe and i don't know--i don't have my own children but really i was scared to see baby. mr. jenner. yes. mrs. dymitruk. and they said, "well, we give the address to go to another children's hospital in dallas." and that's what i did. mr. jenner. you and marina and the baby then drove to---- mrs. dymitruk. yes. mr. jenner. do you remember where that was? mrs. dymitruk. sir, i don't remember. it was a little hospital--children's hospital. i think it was free. you don't have to pay anything. mr. jenner. oh, yes; it was a clinic-type of hospital? mrs. dymitruk. just for children. mr. jenner. yes. mrs. dymitruk. so, when i come there there were at least children there waiting. mr. jenner. ? mrs. dymitruk. i think so. there were so many children. and at first i asked the nurse to take care of the baby if it is possible right away. mr. jenner. because the baby has a fever? mrs. dymitruk. yes; and she said, "well, i'm sorry. i can't help it." mr. jenner. cannot? mrs. dymitruk. "i cannot--because they have so many children here and you have to wait your turn." i said, "maybe those children----"--i see around there--playing around--so, i say, "maybe they don't have a fever high like this. can't you take baby right away?" "oh, no; you have to wait or hours"--or something like that. i said, "well, i'm sorry. we have to go home." so, i brought her home. it was about o'clock. and i said to her, "well, if your husband comes home, you have to decide what to do. if you want it, i can take you to hospital this evening." she said, "yes." so i came to see her around, maybe o'clock--maybe o'clock or something--i don't remember. but when i came home to see her her husband wasn't home. mr. jenner. was not? mrs. dymitruk. was not. i said, "now, marina, i would like to take you to the hospital. do you want to go?" she said, "yes; but wait just a minute when my husband will be back." i said, "okay." so he came home and first he was eating---- mr. jenner. were you introduced to him? mr. dymitruk. yes. she said, "that's my husband." and he spoke russian to me. mr. jenner. he did speak russian? mrs. dymitruk. yes; and i was really surprised--in short time, he spoke nicely. mr. jenner. he spoke pretty good russian? mrs. dymitruk. yes. so--and i asked him if he wanted to go to the hospital with the baby. and he said, "i don't know. i can't afford it. i can't pay." so they went to the living room and i was sitting in the kitchen, and they were fighting in the living room--what to do--to go or not to go. mr. jenner. was it a real argument? mrs. dymitruk. it was. yes. i could hear from the kitchen that they argued. mr. jenner. it was a heated argument? mrs. dymitruk. well, they were just--uh--i don't know what it was all about, but when they came out they told me that they wanted to go to the hospital. mr. jenner. yes. and from what you heard of this argument, he didn't want to go, she did? mrs. dymitruk. she want to go but he---- mr. jenner. he did not want to go? mrs. dymitruk. no; no. so then he decide that he want to go to the hospital and take his baby. i said, "all right." so, we went to the hospital and we found a doctor. and there were children waiting and we wait. so he took care of the baby. he--the doctor took a blood test and took a x-ray--a lung x-ray and, i don't know, all kind of tests, right away. so, on the way back--he got some kind of papers, i think it was two copies or three copies of papers---- mr. jenner. from the hospital? mrs. dymitruk. from the doctor to go to the service desk. mr. jenner. yes. mrs. dymitruk. so, at the service desk--he was standing here [indicating], i was behind him, and marina was behind me with the baby. so--and the service desk asked question--the address and if he's working, and he said "no." mr. jenner. not working? mrs. dymitruk. no. then she said, "do you have unemployment--do you get some unemployment money?" he said, "no." and she said, "well, how do you live then?" he said, "well, friends helping me." and marina--she was behind me--and she says, "what a liar!" and they argue again. mr. jenner. they argued--between the two of them? mrs. dymitruk. yes, in russian language. mr. jenner. did he overhear her make the remark to you that you've just told us? mrs. dymitruk. that's what she told. that's what she told. mr. jenner. did he hear her say that--is what i'm---- mrs. dymitruk. yes--because then they were in argument. mr. jenner. then, they got in an argument? mrs. dymitruk. yes. mr. jenner. and what was the argument about? mrs. dymitruk. well, about the--that he is not working--because he was lying. mr. jenner. i see. did he say why he lied? mrs. dymitruk. no; no. he didn't say anything. so, that piece of paper--he received some kind of paper---- mr. jenner. yes. mrs. dymitruk. to turn around and to pay a cashier, or something, i think so--but he put it in his pocket. mr. jenner. he put the paper in his pocket? mrs. dymitruk. in his pocket. and so we came out and i brought them home--and i didn't come into the house. mr. jenner. they just got out of the car and went in? mrs. dymitruk. yes. they didn't say anything--thank you or what--anything. mr. jenner. to you? mrs. dymitruk. nothing. mr. jenner. they just got out? mrs. dymitruk. yeah. you know, one thing, he said, "i don't want to pay any penny. it's suppose to be free. doctors and everything in russia is free. it's suppose to be free here, too." i didn't like that at all. i was disgusted. mr. jenner. you were disgusted---- mrs. dymitruk. yes. mr. jenner. with him? mrs. dymitruk. i was disgusted with him [laughing]---- mr. jenner. do you recall that the burden of his argument, the point of his argument was that these things were free in russia---- mrs. dymitruk. that's right. mr. jenner. and they should be free in the united states? mrs. dymitruk. that's right. mr. jenner. and he shouldn't be required to pay? if they were free, he shouldn't be paying? mrs. dymitruk. yes; that's what he figures. mr. jenner. when, if ever, did you next see either marina or lee oswald? mrs. dymitruk. i have seen her. it was in , summertime--i think was in july or june, or something like that. i saw her in irving. i worked in irving as manager of a french bakery in the wyatt's store--located in wyatt's store there. mr. jenner. that's a supermarket? mrs. dymitruk. yes. and i managed the bakery. so, i saw her shopping---- mr. jenner. excuse me. i assume you speak french, too, do you? mrs. dymitruk. very little. mr. jenner. very little? mrs. dymitruk. yes. flemish and german. mr. jenner. flemish and german and russian--and english? mrs. dymitruk. and english. mr. jenner. you do very well with english. mrs. dymitruk. thank you. and i saw her with little baby and her dressed maternity. mr. jenner. so she had the same child she had the year before? mrs. dymitruk. yes. mr. jenner. and she was pregnant with another child? mrs. dymitruk. well, she was dressed like she was. and i just saw her from far--and i said, "marina?" "oh!" she says, "how are you?" i said, "okay." mr. jenner. did she recognize you? mrs. dymitruk. oh, yes. and she said, "do you see anything on me?" i said, "well, i don't know." she said, "well, i expect another baby." i said, "well," i said, "that's something." i said, "how is your husband doing?" "oh, he's in new orleans. and i'm going to new orleans, too." and there was another lady with her. mr. jenner. there was another lady? would you describe the other lady, please? mrs. dymitruk. well, she was tall, black hair. she spoke russian. mr. jenner. what was her command of russian? mrs. dymitruk. very--not too bad. but i was surprised at her. because i thought she was english first--her type of face. mr. jenner. yes. mrs. dymitruk. and she said, "well, no. i'm american--and i went to the university and studied russian--and i practice now with marina." i said, "why russian?" i said, "well, in united states, if you need another language, you study spanish or french or german. why russian? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. dymitruk. "oh," she said, "i don't know, but i like very much the russian language. and i thought [gesturing with hands out, palms up]--i don't know. and they sit down on the table and i give them some coffee. and she say that the lady was with her, she will drive her to new orleans. mr. jenner. the lady who was accompanying marina was going to drive marina to new orleans? mrs. dymitruk. right. mr. jenner. what time of the year was this? mrs. dymitruk. years and dates, i'm just lost. mr. jenner. well, was it in the spring? mrs. dymitruk. no, no, no. it was in summertime. mr. jenner. it was in the summertime? mrs. dymitruk. in summertime. just before we close up the store. i think was in july, or maybe june. i'm not sure. mr. jenner. all right. mrs. dymitruk. that's the last time i saw her. mr. jenner. that's the last time you saw marina? mrs. dymitruk. yeah. mr. jenner. and is that the last time you had even any indirect contact--people speaking of her--that is, prior to november --did you hear about her in between? mrs. dymitruk. no. mr. jenner. not at all? mrs. dymitruk. no. mr. jenner. when you were assisting them with their child and went to their apartment, that apartment was here in dallas, was it? mrs. dymitruk. yes; i think it was in oak cliff. mr. jenner. in oak cliff? mrs. dymitruk. i think was in oak cliff. mr. jenner. in your driving to the clinic that evening with lee oswald and marina and the baby and your returning home that night, was there any discussion at any time, other than you have already indicated, of his views with respect to russia? mrs. dymitruk. it was just only about the hospitalization. mr. jenner. only the hospitalization? mrs. dymitruk. yes, sir; that's right. mr. jenner. did you learn, during the course of those visits with marina and the visit to the hospital with both of them, as to whether he had been in russia? mrs. dymitruk. i knew; yes. mr. jenner. you knew that before--well, i'll ask you this: how did you know he had been to russia? mrs. dymitruk. i knew from george bouhe. mr. jenner. from george bouhe? mrs. dymitruk. yes; he told me about it--uh--one person who went to russia and then he come back with russian wife and a baby--back to united states. "well," i say, "that's one thing--that he learned something. to go to russia and he didn't like it and then he come back. he was just lucky that he did come back to united states." mr. jenner. he was fortunate that he could come back? mrs. dymitruk. that's right. mr. jenner. in your talks with marina that morning, when you were taking her to the hospital and you brought her back, you were with her a good many hours? mrs. dymitruk. oh--let me see. it was maybe till o'clock-- : maybe. mr. jenner. did she say anything about the circumstances of her meeting oswald in russia? did she tell you anything about her life or their lives in russia and their life here in the united states? did you girls have some smalltalk? mrs. dymitruk. it was just about life in united states; not in russia. mr. jenner. not in russia? mrs. dymitruk. no. she told me that her husband want to go back to russia. mr. jenner. oh, she did? mrs. dymitruk. "and i don't want to go," she say. mr. jenner. fine. tell me about that. was it, to the best of your recollection, that her husband wanted to go back to russia, including himself and her? mrs. dymitruk. yes. mr. jenner. or was it that he wanted her to go back to russia and he was going to stay here? mrs. dymitruk. no; he wanted to go with her. mr. jenner. yes. mrs. dymitruk. and she said, "he can go if he want to, but i don't go--because i like here and i don't go." mr. jenner. i see. but she did make a point of telling you about that? mrs. dymitruk. yes. mr. jenner. now, can you recall anything else that occurred during this day when you were with them for a good many hours? mrs. dymitruk. no; with her. mr. jenner. yes--with her. mrs. dymitruk. well, i asked her if she like united states. she says, "united states, i do--but not everything" i said, "what you mean--not everything?" "well, just the same problem--the hospitalization and the doctors." i said to her that in united states we have, when you work with a company, you have insurance. you pay just a little every month and then if you go to the hospital, the insurance company will pay. mr. jenner. yes. mrs. dymitruk. that's how i explain to her. "well, in russia, when a baby is born in russia--my baby was born in russia, and they took care and when i come home from the hospital there was a nurse for days in my room who took care of the baby--and why is it not in united states like this?" i said to her, "well, you just can't compare two countries--russia and united states." i said, "i am longer here and i can explain so you will understand." mr. jenner. and did you explain to her? mrs. dymitruk. i explained about this hospitalization what we have here. mr. jenner. uh-huh. mrs. dymitruk. "well," she said, "it's still too expensive. if you have to go doctor, you pay the visit." i said, "you can go to the hospital--to the parkland hospital and it cost you nothing because they don't charge you anything." mr. jenner. yes. mrs. dymitruk. "if you have your own doctor, for example, if you go to doctor, then you pay $ or $ or something like that." i said, "why, that's nothing." "well, i can't afford it." i said, "well, that's why i'm taking you to hospital--to parkland hospital--to see the doctor and you don't have to pay anything." that was the only--what she complained about. mr. jenner. but otherwise she thought well of the united states? mrs. dymitruk. she liked it. mr. jenner. she wanted to stay? mrs. dymitruk. she want to stay; yes. mr. jenner. in any event, she did not want to go back to russia? mrs. dymitruk. no. mr. jenner. but she told you that her husband did want to return to russia? mrs. dymitruk. yes. mr. jenner. with her? mrs. dymitruk. yes. mr. jenner. do you remember specifically now? mrs. dymitruk. yes; i remember. yes. mr. jenner. you have a firm recollection that it was that he wanted to go back with her? mrs. dymitruk. with her. and she said, "i don't want to go. if he want to go, he can go by himself. i stay here." mr. jenner. now, did she say anything, during the course of this time you were with her, about her husband's attitude toward the united states? mrs. dymitruk. she told me that he was unhappy and that he was very disappointed; that he would lose jobs just because that he was in russia and the people find out that he was in russia, so he's on the street. mr. jenner. uh-huh. mrs. dymitruk. and that's why he was always so upset. mr. jenner. i see. all right. now, mrs. dymitruk, does anything occur to you now to which you would like to call my attention and, through me, the commission, that you think for any possible reason might be helpful to us in this important investigation? mrs. dymitruk. well, in my opinion, naturally, everyone american who goes from united states to russia, let them there. don't bring them back. that's the only thing that i can say. it's no reason to leave united states and change your nationality or something. because i have experience myself. i lived in russia for years and, in my childhood, i knew too much about the life in russia. and i can't see any reason that american want to go to russia and to accept russian life--i mean the communists. i can't see that. mr. jenner. you have a personal aversion to communism? mrs. dymitruk. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and it's your viewpoint that if any american goes to russia with the intention of living there that we ought to leave them there? mrs. dymitruk. that's right. mr. jenner. and not encourage him to return to the united states? mrs. dymitruk. not encourage--or if he ask to come back, just let him stay there. mr. jenner. uh-huh. all right. anything else? mrs. dymitruk. let's see--uh--one thing that i'm just always wonder about marina and her husband--that she knew--if she knew that her husband tried to kill general walker. i think she was responsible, in that case, to tell the government or somebody in government that her husband tried to do this. mr. jenner. it's your viewpoint about---- mrs. dymitruk. yes, sir; that's right. mr. jenner. that she should have disclosed that? mrs. dymitruk. yes, sir. husband or no husband, i would feel that i should. mr. jenner. your feeling is that regardless of whether it was a husband, or whomever it might have been---- mrs. dymitruk. right. mr. jenner. that was involved in such an incident, that it should have been disclosed to the police or the government? mrs. dymitruk. yes, sir. mr. jenner. anything else? mrs. dymitruk. well, you ask questions. i don't know. mr. jenner. i can't think of anything at the moment. now, we've had occasional discussions off the record when the reporter hasn't been transcribing. is there anything that occurred during the course of any off-the-record discussion that i haven't brought out in questioning you that you think is pertinent here? mrs. dymitruk. nothing. mr. jenner. everything that's pertinent i have questioned you about? mrs. dymitruk. yes. mr. jenner. as far as you know? mrs. dymitruk. yes. mr. jenner. all right. now, mrs. dymitruk, this questioning will be transcribed and this fine young lady will have it some time next week. you may read it if you desire, or not--as you see fit. and some people like to read it over and see if they're any corrections they would like to make. that's optional. you may or may not as you see fit. and you have a right to do this if you want. you also may waive it. mrs. dymitruk. i think that's all right. mr. jenner. you would prefer to waive it? mrs. dymitruk. i think that's all right. what i say is truth. mr. jenner. well, all right. thank you very much. we appreciate your coming voluntarily. it's certainly an inconvenience, i know, but you've been very helpful. mrs. dymitruk. thank you. testimony of gary e. taylor the testimony of mr. gary e. taylor was taken at p.m. on march , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. albert e. jenner, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. robert t. davis, assistant attorney general of texas, was also present. mr. jenner. mr. taylor, will you stand and be sworn please? in your testimony which you are about to give, do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. taylor. i do. mr. jenner. mr. taylor, did you receive recently--i guess it was last week--a letter from j. lee rankin, the general counsel for the presidential assassination commission---- mr. taylor. yes, sir. mr. jenner. asking if you would appear for the taking of your deposition? mr. taylor. that's true. mr. jenner. and was there included with that letter a copy of the executive order of president lyndon b. johnson, no. of november , , in which he appoints and authorizes the commission and directs that it prescribe its procedures---- mr. taylor. yes. mr. jenner. together with a copy of the senate joint resolution no. of the th congress, first session, legislatively authorizing the creation of the commission? mr. taylor. yes; there was. mr. jenner. pursuant to that executive order and the senate joint resolution, the presidential assassination commission is investigating all the facts and circumstances that it thinks are pertinent to the assassination of the president and all the facts and circumstances surrounding it and what led up to it or might have led up to it. we have, from information which you have voluntarily furnished, and from other sources, knowledge that you had contacts with the oswalds and with persons who, in turn, also had contacts with the oswalds and that you might be able to furnish some information which we think might be helpful. i am a member of the legal staff of the commission which, you will notice from the rules, a staff member is authorized to take depositions here in dallas and conduct the examination. and you appear here voluntarily? mr. taylor. yes. mr. jenner. now, your full name is gary--[spelling] g-a-r-y e. taylor? mr. taylor. that's correct. mr. jenner. what's your middle name? mr. taylor. edward. mr. jenner. and you live in fort worth--is that correct, sir? mr. taylor. no; i live in dallas. mr. jenner. dallas? and your address in dallas? mr. taylor. orlando court, apartment . mr. jenner. are you a married man? mr. taylor. yes. mr. jenner. family? mr. taylor. yes. mr. jenner. how many children? mr. taylor. one. mr. jenner. and what is your age? mr. taylor. twenty-three. mr. jenner. you are an american citizen? mr. taylor. yes. mr. jenner. born here? mr. taylor. yes. mr. jenner. your wife is an american citizen? mr. taylor. yes. mr. jenner. born here? mr. taylor. yes. mr. jenner. your children born here? mr. taylor. yes. mr. jenner. are you a native of this area of the country? mr. taylor. i am a native of wichita, kans. i've been in dallas since . mr. jenner. did your profession or avocation or vocation or work bring you to dallas? mr. taylor. no; i moved here with my parents. mr. jenner. your parents came here. all right. and what is your business or occupation or profession? mr. taylor. i'm a recording engineer for the sellers co. mr. jenner. and what is the sellers co? mr. taylor. a recording company whose primary function is the recording of radio and television commercials. mr. jenner. and how long have you been in that business? mr. taylor. i went to work for them in september. mr. jenner. ? mr. taylor. prior to that, i was in the motion picture industry. yes. mr. jenner. give me your occupations back through, let us say, . mr. taylor. uh--prior to joining the sellers co. in september last, i was self-employed in the motion picture industry in dallas as a grip and assistant cameraman. before that, i worked at various part-time jobs and attended college at arlington state. mr. jenner. are you a graduate of arlington state? mr. taylor. no; i'm not. i'm a -year student. mr. jenner. so, you've had elementary and high school education and years at arlington state? mr. taylor. that's right. mr. jenner. are you attending there at night--is that a night school? mr. taylor. they hold night classes. i'm not attending. mr. jenner. during the time you had your interest, which you still may have, in--what did you say--photographing? mr. taylor. yes. mr. jenner. what was the nature of that? mr. taylor. oh--it was motion picture work primarily centered around television commercials. mr. jenner. are you an amateur camera fan? mr. taylor. just a little bit. i try to carry it on as best i can. mr. jenner. did you at any time become acquainted with or meet either marina or lee oswald? mr. taylor. yes. mr. jenner. which of the two did you meet first? mr. taylor. i don't actually remember. i met both of them on the same day in their home. mr. jenner. on the same occasion? mr. taylor. yes. mr. jenner. had you had any information about them prior to the time you met them? mr. taylor. yes; i had. mr. jenner. now, when was it you met them? mr. taylor. i believe it was in september . mr. jenner. was this a prearranged meeting, an accidental meeting, or was it a purposeful meeting? mr. jenner. it was prearranged. mr. jenner. prearranged. all right. we'll get to the purpose in a moment, if we can defer that for a bit. would you tell us the circumstances, persons involved also, that led to your becoming acquainted in advance with something about the oswalds and which led up to the occasion when you met them, as you have now indicated? mr. taylor. all right. mr. jenner. in other words, how did it come about--from the beginning of the world to the present? mr. taylor. uh--about a week before i met them, uh--my wife was told of them by either her father or stepmother. that would be either mr. or mrs. george de mohrenschildt [spelling] d-e m-o-h-r-e-n-s-c-h-i-l-d-t. mr. jenner. yes. and the first name is george. and do you know the present mrs. de mohrenschildt's first name--given name? mr. taylor. it is pronounced zhon [phonetic]. mr. jenner. pronounced as though it's spelled j-o-n? mr. taylor. yes--uh--it is pronounced as the dutch would say it--zhon. i believe that she uses the french spelling of the name, although i'm not familiar with it. mr. jenner. is she sometimes called jeanne [spelling] j-e-a-n-n-e? mr. taylor. yes. i'm not sure of the "e" on the end of it. mr. jenner. i'd like to back up a moment. your wife--what was her maiden name? mr. taylor. alexandra romyne---- mr. jenner. [spelling] r-o-m-i-n-e? mr. taylor. [spelling] r-o-m-y-n-e. mr. jenner. de mohrenschildt? mr. taylor. that's right. mr. jenner. and she was the daughter of whom? mr. taylor. of george de mohrenschildt and a woman who is now known as mrs. j. m. brandel. mr. jenner. spell that last name. mr. taylor. [spelling] b-r-a-n-d-e-l. mr. jenner. and the present mrs. brandel--she was the wife of george de mohrenschildt and, in turn, is the mother of your wife? mr. taylor. that is true. but that is not the present mrs. de mohrenschildt. mr. jenner. no. i appreciate that. where does she live now? mr. taylor. mrs. brandel, as last i knew, was living at stellara b. mr. jenner. will you spell that? mr. taylor. [spelling] s-t-e-l-l-a-r-a b. mr. jenner. just the letter b? mr. taylor. just the letter b. i believe stellara means apartment in italian. vagna clara [spelling] v-a-g-n-a c-l-a-r-a, rome, italy. mr. jenner. has she remarried? mr. taylor. yes, she has remarried--and her name is brandel. mr. jenner. how many children were born of that marriage? mr. taylor. one. mr. jenner. just your wife? mr. taylor. that's right. mr. jenner. and was the present mrs. brandel the first wife, second wife, third wife of mr. george de mohrenschildt? mr. taylor. the first wife--to my knowledge. mr. jenner. are you informed that in addition to the present mrs. brandel and the present mrs. de mohrenschildt, de mohrenschildt also was married to at least one, if not two other women? mr. taylor. yes, i am aware of one other one. mr. jenner. will you tell us about the one that you do have in mind? mr. taylor. i know very little about her, other than that her name is dee--her first name is dee. mr. jenner. [spelling] d-e-e? mr. taylor. yes. mr. jenner. dee or deedee? is she sometimes called deedee? mr. taylor. she may have been. and that they had two children, one of which is deceased. mr. jenner. and the one who still survives is male or female? mr. taylor. female. mr. jenner. do you know her name and whereabouts? mr. taylor. her given name is nodjia--and i do not know the spelling of it. it is, i believe, a russian name. mr. jenner. could you spell it phonetically? mr. taylor. [spelling] n-o-d-j-i-a (phonetic). mr. jenner. is she married? mr. taylor. no. she's a minor. mr. jenner. she's still a minor? mr. taylor. yes. mr. jenner. where does she live? mr. taylor. i believe in philadelphia--but i can't be sure of that. mr. jenner. the impression is, at least, that she is living with her mother in philadelphia? mr. taylor. yes. mr. jenner. rather than with the de mohrenschildts in port-au-prince, haiti? mr. taylor. that's correct. mr. jenner. you are aware of the fact that george de mohrenschildt and his present wife now, are at least presently, are residing in port-au-prince, haiti? mr. taylor. yes. (off the record discussion follows.) mr. jenner. in order that the record be not too confused, i think it would be well that you finish recounting what led up to your meeting with marina and lee harvey oswald, and then i will go back when we finish that subject, and put the de mohrenschildts in proper perspective. mr. taylor. all right. mr. jenner. we have been off the record in the meantime, haven't we, mr. taylor, during which time you recounted to me something about the de mohrenschildts and the relation between your present wife and the de mohrenschildts, and other matters in that connection? mr. taylor. yes. mr. jenner. we will bring that out later. (at this point, mr. jenner asked your reporter to orient the witness by referring back to the point of interruption, when he started recounting how his meeting with the oswalds came about.) your reporter. [reading] "about a week before i met them, my wife was told of them by either her father or stepmother--mr. and mrs. george de mohrenschildt." mr. jenner. now, that's where i interrupted. please go on from there. mr. taylor. they explained to us that---- mr. jenner. when you say "they," you mean whom? mr. taylor. one or the other of the de mohrenschildts. mr. jenner. all right. mr. taylor. explained to my wife---- mr. jenner. in your presence? mr. taylor. no. mr. jenner. this is something your wife told you? mr. taylor. yes. mr. jenner. all right. mr. taylor. that a russian girl, mrs. oswald, was living in fort worth with her husband, and that they were going to be--the de mohrenschildts were going to be in fort worth on sunday afternoon attending a concert and that after the concert, they would like for us to join them, the de mohrenschildts, and visit the oswalds. mr. jenner. now, when was this? mr. taylor. in early september of . mr. jenner. all right. go on. mr. taylor. we---- mr. jenner. excuse me. had you ever heard of a lee oswald or of an american being back here with a russian wife--or was this entirely new to you? mr. taylor. this was new to me. i was not aware of the presence of either one of them prior to this. mr. jenner. and, as far as you know, was it new to your wife? mr. taylor. yes. mr. jenner. and, from a conversation we had while we were off the record, the wife you now speak of--that is, back in --that is not your present wife? mr. taylor. that's correct. mr. jenner. but that wife--what was her maiden name? mr. taylor. alexandra romyne de mohrenschildt. mr. jenner. all right. mr. taylor. and we met them, as they had suggested, in fort worth one sunday afternoon. mr. jenner. when you say "them," you mean---- mr. taylor. the two de mohrenschildts. and we met the oswalds and also---- mr. jenner. excuse me. what did you do? you went to the concert over there? mr. taylor. we went to the oswalds' home. we had been given an address and a time when the de mohrenschildts would already have arrived. mr. jenner. and when you arrived at this place, were your father-in-law and mother-in-law present? mr. taylor. yes; they were. mr. jenner. and where was this? mr. taylor. this was on mercedes street. i do not remember the number. mr. jenner. in fort worth? mr. taylor. yes, sir; in fort worth. mr. jenner. you located the apartment, as you had been advised of the number? mr. taylor. yes; it was a house. mr. jenner. it was a house--not an apartment? mr. taylor. it was a house. mr. jenner. was it a single-family dwelling or a duplex? mr. taylor. i'm not sure. it was either a single-family unit or a duplex. mr. jenner. you have no present recollection which one it was? mr. taylor. no, sir; i do not. mr. jenner. describe to us what you saw in the way of the room or rooms, the surroundings, whether neat and clean and whether threadbare or new furniture--or what did it look like inside? mr. taylor. it was a comparatively bare room, as i remember, uncarpeted. the furniture was badly worn. it was, however, clean--particularly so considering the number of people that were there. mr. jenner. and it was orderly--not messy? mr. taylor. that's right. mr. jenner. now, when you entered that room, there were present two persons introduced to you as mr. and mrs. oswald? mr. taylor. that's right. mr. jenner. was mrs. oswald introduced to you as marina oswald? mr. taylor. i believe she was. mr. jenner. and your father-in-law and your mother-in-law, the de mohrenschildts, yourself, and your wife--anybody else present? mr. taylor. yes; several other people were present. lee oswald's mother was there. mr. jenner. marguerite oswald? mr. taylor. yes. george bouhe was there. a mr. and mrs. hall was there--john hall and his estranged wife. i'm not sure of her name--first name. mr. jenner. elena [spelling] e-l-e-n-a hall? mr. taylor. elena. mr. jenner. which, of any, of these people had you known prior to the time that you stepped into this room? mr. taylor. only the de mohrenschildts. mr. jenner. so, this was your first acquaintance with the halls, your first acquaintance with marguerite oswald, and your first acquaintance with lee and marina oswald? mr. taylor. that's right. mr. jenner. and what ensued--by way of what anybody did and what anybody said? mr. taylor. i don't remember but very sketchily what went on that afternoon. there's a number of questions in my mind about what preceded--i mean, mrs. oswald---- mr. jenner. will you please state them and where you are stating a question in your mind as distinct from something that was said---- mr. taylor. well, i will come to that. i was only trying to establish a general vagueness of recollection of the afternoon. mrs. oswald left shortly after i arrived. mr. jenner. now, you mean marguerite? mr. taylor. yes; lee's mother. mr. jenner. have you ever seen her other than on this short visit? mr. taylor. not except in news media. never in person other than that one afternoon. mr. jenner. and you've had no contact with her directly since this particular occasion you are now relating? mr. taylor. that's right. mr. jenner. and the news media to which you refer is news media activities subsequent to november , ? mr. taylor. that's correct. mr. jenner. she was just there for about minutes? mr. taylor. less than minutes, i would say. mr. jenner. did you have an opportunity to form an impression of her in those few minutes? mr. taylor. i just have a vague recollection of a somewhat plump woman who seemed to be--uh--out of place in the present crowd that was there that afternoon. and she didn't seem to be particularly interested in anything that went on--and i think that's what prompted her to leave. mr. jenner. did you have an opportunity to observe and form an opinion from those observations as to the attitude between lee oswald and marguerite? mr. taylor. i would say that it was one of estrangement between them; that they had very little communication between them; that they were almost strangers--and possibly even didn't like each other. particularly on lee's part, i should think. mr. jenner. that was your impression? mr. taylor. yes. mr. jenner. and this was, again, september of --did you say? mr. taylor. yes. mr. jenner. all right. september . okay--i've got myself oriented. go ahead. mr. taylor. and that we talked generally about some of the things that--uh--some of lee's observations about russia. mr. jenner. did he speak in english or russian? mr. taylor. he spoke in english when talking to my wife of that time or i; and quite often in russian--as i believe everyone in the room spoke russian except my wife, myself, and john hall. i'm not sure if john hall spoke russian or not--but certainly both the de mohrenschildts, and george bouhe does. mr. jenner. george bouhe, both of the de mohrenschildts--your mother-in-law and father-in-law and both the oswalds--lee and marina? mr. taylor. that's right. in addition to that, there was mrs. hall. mr. jenner. and mrs. hall also spoke russian? mr. taylor. yes. mr. jenner. neither you nor your then wife spoke russian? mr. taylor. she had a knowledge of russian but certainly not enough to converse with them. she could understand some russian when it was spoken to her, but could not speak but just a few words. mr. jenner. could she follow a normal conversation between two others who were speaking so each could understand the other, but not any attempt to slow down and what-not in order to enable her to try and pick up? mr. taylor. i imagine they would have had to have spoken very plainly and slowly and using simple words for her to have understood any of it. mr. jenner. i believe i interrupted you at a point where you stated that you talked generally about some of lee's experiences and observations about russia. would you continue from that point, indicating as best you can now recall, what was said about lee's experiences in russia? mr. taylor. it's difficult to remark specifically about what we talked of that day. perhaps it would be better if i--uh--told you all i can remember that he said about russia on several occasions now rather than--because i cannot remember specifically what we discussed on that day. mr. jenner. all right. so we can get one point in the record--i'll probably ask more specifically about the different occasions later on. but give us a running account such as you have indicated you desire to make. mr. taylor. all right. lee, on various occasions, and i discussed the life that he led in russia, his experiences in russia, and his general observations about it. i guess i should best start with his observations of family life there. he and marina lived in an apartment. it was about x . and he remarked that all families in russia lived in apartments of this approximate size regardless of the size of the families--that there were no private residences as we think of them. and that six family units would be grouped around a community kitchen and lavatory, and where all the families shared the same facilities. and that he and marina did live in this manner. that he worked as a sheet-metal fabricator in the town of minsk, and received for his remuneration for his work rubles a month--which was the minimum, he said, that everyone in russia receives whether they work or not. he went into some detail about what is received directly from the state without payment. in other words, what services a russian citizen receives in what we would call socialized services--such as medicine. a russian citizen does not have to pay for medical services; the house--apartment, a place to live, a russian citizen does not have to pay for it. there is no charge for this. and we also discussed what other people made. i believe he said marina received rubles a month for her work as a pharmacist. and that she had received training in that. and we discussed their school system somewhat--how a student that worked hard is allowed to continue with his schooling, whereas a student that either doesn't work hard or isn't capable is taken only to a level of which they are capable and then put to work. and we went on and discussed their financial system a little bit further, and i learned that a person does get raises in a job, that salaries--once you are given a job, why your salary does increase as you continue through the years on a skilled job. mr. jenner. as your skills increase? mr. taylor. no; at the same job. mr. davis. as your age increases? mr. taylor. in other words, for length of time at your machine, for example. when you first come to work, like lee, and you make rubles a month, as he does it for so many years or for such a length of time, he gets a raise over and above that. mr. jenner. then, that increase comes purely as a matter of passage of time and has no relation to skill? mr. taylor. that's correct. mr. jenner. did he say anything about--take the example he gave--machine operator--if the machine operator next to oswald, for example--take a hypothetical person--is much more skillful then oswald, is the compensation the same? mr. taylor. uh--to my knowledge, it would be. mr. jenner. that's the impression you received? mr. taylor. that is the impression i received. i believe he said that someone doing his job, by the time they reach retirement age--i don't remember what that was--would be receiving something just under rubles a month for performing the same task. mr. jenner. did he indicate a comparative relationship between the ruble and the dollar--to give you some notion of what rubles a month, for example, or rubles a month meant in terms of american money? mr. taylor. i asked lee that question, as i remember, and he told me that a comparison was difficult because of the socialized or free services given to the citizen by the government; that, for example, out of his rubles a month that he had to buy little other than food and clothing; and that the rubles a month would buy food, a bare minimum, and sufficient clothing to clothe one individual. mr. jenner. liberally? or just enough to get along? mr. taylor. just enough to get going on--in both cases. and that his impression--the impression he left with me was that a person needed little else as far as entertainment and so on was concerned, these things were held by the state so that--uh--to get the families out of these cramped quarters, that everything--and constant entertainment in some form--athletics, or occasional motion pictures, different kinds of stage presentations--were held nightly away from the home, so that the families could get out of the cramped quarters and wouldn't feel this. mr. jenner. it was all designed, in part at least, with that objective in mind--of getting people out of their cramped quarters or room apartments, into theatres and concert halls and athletic events? mr. taylor. that's right. and we discussed travel for the average russian citizen--which is nonexistent. a person that---- mr. jenner. now, you are telling us things he said to you? mr. taylor. yes; to the best of my memory i am telling you. mr. jenner. to the best of your ability? you are not rationalizing or speculating from things you have read in works published with respect to life in russia? mr. taylor. no. mr. jenner. you are trying to do your best to tell us what he said? mr. taylor. that's right. mr. jenner. all right. mr. taylor. he said that for the average worker or citizen in russia that travel was nonexistent; that a person that grew up in minsk would probably spend his whole life without venturing far from the city. that living areas like the apartment he lived in were built around factories so that a person in a job like his, he wouldn't even probably know what was across on the other side of the city. and this is just about the end, at least, to my easy recollection of the things that we discussed. mr. jenner. was anything said about the context of rubles a month earned by marina and rubles a month earned by oswald? mr. taylor. i don't remember any specific comments that he made about that. the only thing i remember in this regard was that he did mention at one time that marina had a higher education than he had and that--uh--i don't believe i ever heard him say anything else about it. mr. jenner. in any event, you didn't raise the question? mr. taylor. no. mr. jenner. did he say that marina, after they married, that marina worked as well as he? mr. taylor. i don't remember whether she worked after they were married or not. mr. jenner. did he say anything about custom and habit in russia that wives worked? mr. taylor. yes; he mentioned that most wives--most women do work. he didn't, as i remember, go into any specifics about it. i don't remember much being said about it other than that most women do work--or, i should say, they are encouraged to work. mr. jenner. did he state or did he imply, do you have any impression on his reaction toward this life in russia? mr. taylor. he--uh--oh, he indicated throughout our discussions that he was dissatisfied with the life of the average russian citizen; that they didn't have any freedoms, as we think of freedom, in other words, to go get in our car and go where we want to, do what we want to, or say what we want to; that, generally speaking, they did not have this privilege as we enjoy it. mr. jenner. did he say anything about any privileges or any activities on his part that were different from--that is, that were accorded him--that were different from those accorded russian people or foreigners, let us say, in russia, having circumstances or work comparable to his? this is, was he treated or accorded benefits different from or in addition to those which would normally have been accorded him? mr. taylor. i think he felt like that the situation that the russians put him into--in other words, the environment they put him into--- was less than he had anticipated. this is only an impression now. mr. jenner. yes; i know. mr. taylor. it was never--we never discussed this. but i always felt like that he was disappointed that they put him in a factory forming sheet metal and didn't give him what he felt was something important to do. mr. jenner. that is, did you have the impression, in your contacts with him discussing his life in russia, that he had an opinion of himself that was such that he felt he was not being accorded that which at least his ambitions and desires, he thought, warranted? mr. taylor. i think that's true. he didn't--uh--i think he expected, as a former american, to be treated as something special--as though he were a rarity, because he had left this country and gone there, and that they would have treated him with a red carpet, so to speak. of course, he was very disappointed what they actually gave him. mr. jenner. and your statement that he was very disappointed in what he actually received--did he say that to you? was it more than just an impression on your part? mr. taylor. uh--he never said that. it's only an impression. mr. jenner. is it a distinct impression or---- mr. taylor. yes. it's a very distinct impression. mr. jenner. all right. mr. taylor. that this is one of the reasons why i would never have asked him, as you asked me, what he felt about his wife making more money. he seemed very depressed about how the russians had treated him. mr. jenner. did he appear to you to be sensitive on this score--that he---- mr. taylor. it appeared that he would be sensitive if i had broached the subject. mr. jenner. all right. now, have you exhausted your recollection as to what he told you of his life in russia? mr. taylor. yes. mr. jenner. did he say anything about any independent activity on his part--that is, activity of his distinct from marina--such as, for example, going hunting? mr. taylor. no. mr. jenner. was the subject of the use of firearms for hunting ever discussed by him with you? mr. taylor. no; nor was the subject, which i think you were leading up to, of the russians' right or lack of right to own firearms discussed. mr. jenner. the subject of firearms was never discussed? mr. taylor. no. mr. jenner. did he discuss at any time with you, or did you hear him discuss it in your presence, his effort to return to the united states and any difficulties, if he had any, in that connection? mr. taylor. yes; i believe he said that--uh--he did have difficulties and that it took him--uh--about a year to get permission to come to this--return to this country with his wife. mr. jenner. did he say anything about whether he undertook that effort prior to his marriage--had commenced it prior to the time he had married marina? mr. taylor. no; he indicated that he commenced it after his marriage. mr. jenner. did he discuss with you at any time, or was the subject discussed in your presence, as to the courtship between marina and himself? mr. taylor. no; or, if it was, i have no recollection of it. mr. jenner. did he discuss with you, or was there a discussion in your presence, of any illnesses on his part while he was in russia? mr. taylor. no. mr. jenner. all right. have we now exhausted his discussions with you with respect to the subject of his life in russia? mr. taylor. yes. mr. jenner. did he discuss with you, or was there a discussion in your presence, the subject of why he sought to return to the united states? mr. taylor. oh, only that he was unhappy with both the way of life in russia and--uh--the place that he had been given in it. mr. jenner. did he discuss with you, or was there a discussion in your presence, the subject of marina's inclinations in that connection--any desire on her part to come to the united states? mr. taylor. no; there was never--uh--any discussion as to her feelings about coming to this country at all. i don't think, in any case, that they were important to him. mr. jenner. at least, they weren't discussed in your presence and not with you directly? mr. taylor. that's right. mr. jenner. was there discussed in your presence, or did he discuss directly with you, their route back to the united states? mr. taylor. no; i believe the only thing that he ever mentioned about that was that the american embassy, i presume in moscow, loaned him the money to return. mr. jenner. did he discuss with you, or was there discussed in your presence, his reaction to the russian system, as such, distinguished now from what was accorded him which you have related--more in the area of the political area--the communist system, as such, the political philosophy, as distinguished from the u.s.s.r. as a country or government? mr. taylor. well, everything that we discussed, of course--and the things i have related--illustrate the distinction between the two political governments--such as, services that a russian citizen obtains free and the housing, various rights or lack of them that the russian citizen had. we did not discuss the system otherwise except perhaps some impressions he had about government officials living somewhat better than the average citizen lived. mr. jenner. did he ever discuss with you, or was there discussed in your presence, the communist party as distinct from the russian government? mr. taylor. no. mr. jenner. did he discuss with you, or was there discussed in your presence, his political philosophy? mr. taylor. uh--i would say that at the point in his life which i knew him, he was somewhat confused about philosophy. he did not seem particularly happy with the form of government we have in this country or with government as it exists anywhere. i think he had been--and perhaps still was--a partisan of a communist form of government, but, as it is practiced in russia, i don't think that he liked it at all. mr. jenner. all right. what else was discussed on this--was it a sunday afternoon? mr. taylor. yes; there was a discussion about lee's job--which i believe he had just left the friday before. he was--he terminated his employment. i don't know if he was fired or how he became severed from it--and he wanted to move to dallas. and there was some discussion about the move and it taking place, and so on, and i cannot be sure now whether it was this sunday or the following sunday that marina came to stay in my home. mr. jenner. uh-huh. mr. taylor. i tend to think that it was that sunday afternoon that we invited her to come and stay with us, and i believe lee said---- mr. jenner. in the event he went to dallas? mr. taylor. no; to actually come and stay with us from that sunday evening forward. mr. jenner. why? mr. taylor. uh--during their move. just to give her a place to live until he was able to find a job here in dallas. mr. jenner. it was, therefore, your impression, i take it, that your invitation was not tendered because of any difficulties between marina and lee, but rather to afford her a place to live temporarily until lee became established elsewhere? mr. taylor. that's right. in dallas. mr. jenner. i mean, my statement is a fair statement of the then atmosphere? mr. taylor. yes; i, at that time, was not aware that there was any marital disharmony. mr. jenner. all right. now, i'm going to ask you that question as of that afternoon. what was your impression, if you have any, of the relationship between marina and lee as of that time? mr. taylor. as of that time, it appeared to be normal--normal man and wife relationship. i think it was somewhat strained by a language barrier. some of the people present, not speaking russian, and she did not speak any english, and this left somewhat of a burden upon the others present to interpret the conversations from one side or the other. but i was not able to sense any disharmony at that point. mr. jenner. now, by the time you had arrived at their home, had you had some notion of why you were invited to be present on that occasion? mr. taylor. only to meet them and i hoped to learn something about russia and how people live there. mr. jenner. all right. how long did this meeting take place? mr. taylor. uh--i believe from about until . mr. jenner. did you have anything to eat during that period of time? mr. taylor. no. mr. jenner. have you now related all the subjects discussed at that meeting having a relation to the oswalds and any part you would play in their lives? mr. taylor. uh--well, as i mentioned before, it was difficult to remember whether it was that sunday or the following sunday, but i tend to think that that sunday evening, marina and her daughter, june, returned to dallas with my wife and i and that lee stayed---- mr. jenner. that was at the time of that first meeting? mr. taylor. yes; at the time of the first meeting--at the end of it. and that lee stayed in fort worth that night and that he and mrs. hall, some time the next day, moved their bigger belongings--more bulky ones other than clothing--to mrs. hall's garage and stored them there. and then he came to dallas and--uh--took up residence at the y.m.c.a. here. mr. jenner. uh-huh. now, do you know, as a matter of fact, that he did take residence at the y.m.c.a.? mr. taylor. yes. mr. jenner. how long did marina remain with you and your wife in your home, commencing that sunday night? mr. taylor. approximately weeks. mr. jenner. and she brought with her what--in addition to her child, of course? mr. taylor. just clothing. mr. jenner. and you were residing then where? mr. taylor. at fairmount. mr. jenner. in what town? mr. taylor. dallas, tex. i believe it was apartment . mr. jenner. you say you spoke no russian, you understood no russian, your then wife understood a few words of russian but had difficulty with the language? mr. taylor. that's right. mr. jenner. how did you get along about your social intercourse between marina on the one hand, yourself and your wife on the other, during this week? mr. taylor. my social intercourse with marina during this period was somewhat limited. she and my wife at that time, alex, were able to--uh--not to discuss anything, but were able to communicate sufficiently to get along and perhaps even enjoy each other's company to some extent. my son and their daughter, june, are within a month of the same age; so that helped the barrier of language somewhat in their being able to play with the children and the children play with each other. mr. jenner. did she have any visitors during that week--or did you say weeks? mr. taylor. two weeks. mrs. de mohrenschildt, on one occasion i remember specifically, and probably mr. de mohrenschildt, and george bouhe came one time. mr. jenner. did you hear anything from lee oswald during that -week period? mr. taylor. yes. mr. jenner. when did you first hear from him? mr. taylor. i think on either the following monday or tuesday. mr. jenner. that would be the next day or the day after the sunday meeting? mr. taylor. yes; i believe i, or someone, talked to lee on the telephone and i believe i went down and got him. i went down to the y.m.c.a. mr. jenner. here in dallas? mr. taylor. here in dallas, on two or three occasions, and picked him up. mr. jenner. did you go in to pick him up or did you find him in front of the building? mr. taylor. uh--i think i did both. i remember specifically once going into the desk and asking for him and then telephoning him to come down. mr. jenner. you asked for him, you were given a room number, you used the house telephone to call him? is that a fair statement? mr. taylor. something--i just remember that i went in and asked for him and he came down. i did not go up to the room, but i do remember going in and his coming down to meet me. mr. jenner. all right. i think it might be helpful, now, if you would continue from the point after your -hour visit in the oswald apartment late sunday afternoon and early evening. you then took marina to your home. your recollection is that the next contact you had was that there had been a telephone call by lee to your home. as a result of that call, you went to the y.m.c.a. is that correct? mr. taylor. i believe so. mr. jenner. now, why did you go to the y.m.c.a. as a result of that call? mr. taylor. to pick him up so that he might visit his wife. (recess: : p.m. reconvened: : p.m.) mr. jenner. now where were we? mr. taylor. let's see, i believe i was talking, awhile back, about people that had seen them during this period, and i mentioned that there was only george bouhe and mr. and mrs. de mohrenschildt. and george bouhe came by just, i think, to be sociable, and to see if he could give lee any suggestions on where he might look for a job. and at some point during this period---- mr. jenner. this is the -week period? mr. taylor. yes; the -week period--mrs. de mohrenschildt came by and picked marina up. mr. jenner. at your home? mr. taylor. at my home--and took her, i believe, to a dentist. mr. jenner. now, how do you know this? mr. taylor. well, it sticks in my mind because while the two of them were gone, marina's little girl, june, cried almost constantly because, i guess, it was the first time she had ever been away from her mother--and she cried constantly and wouldn't even eat for the whole period marina was gone--which, as i remember it, was the better part of day. i think she had two teeth pulled, or something. i'm not sure about what was done other than that she did go to see, i think a charity--went to a charity dental clinic. mr. jenner. and it is your distinct recollection that she was taken to the charity dental clinic by your step-mother-in-law? mr. taylor. my mother-in-law. there's no "step" to me. just mother-in-law. mr. jenner. i see. all right. by your mother-in-law. mr. taylor. that would be a stepmother to my wife. mr. jenner. all right. did you ever take marina to a dental clinic? mr. taylor. no--not to my recollection. i didn't take--uh--marina anyplace that i remember. mr. jenner. are you familiar with the baylor university college of dentistry? mr. taylor. no; i know that there is one here; that they have one out at baylor hospital--but i'm not familiar with it otherwise. mr. jenner. would you fix the period when marina was in your home--first, the month? mr. taylor. uh--it was in september of . mr. jenner. and all of the stay was in the month of september, and none of it in the month of october ? mr. taylor. my memory, as i say, is not clear back that far. but--uh--i personally have no recollection of dates involved. even when i was first interviewed, i believed it to be during this period we are talking about. it was pinpointed for me one time that it would--that lee left his job on or about the th of september and that, just going from that date, why it would, presuming, as i remember, that that was a friday in , i believe that they came--she came to my home for a period of weeks after that. i don't believe that it lasted any longer. mr. jenner. during this period, did you have occasion in calling from your home or place of business to call lee oswald at the y.m.c.a.? mr. taylor. i believe i--uh--i may not have personally. i may have dialed the telephone for marina and asked for him so that she could talk to him. mr. jenner. well, did you ever seek to reach him by telephone either for yourself or for marina? mr. taylor. i don't specifically remember an occasion doing that. mr. jenner. do you recall any occasion when you made a telephone call to the y.m.c.a. in an effort to reach lee oswald? mr. taylor. no; not specifically. i could only say that it is probable that i would have. mr. jenner. do you recall whether mrs. taylor ever made an effort to do so? mr. taylor. no; i don't recall her having made an effort to do that. mr. jenner. well, i'll put it this way: did you ever have any trouble finding lee oswald, whether by telephone or direct visit, at the y.m.c.a.? mr. taylor. i never had any trouble locating him at the y.m.c.a. when i made an attempt to. i never remember any difficulty in contacting him there. mr. jenner. now, i gather that marina's visit at your home terminated at the end of about weeks. did anything occur during those weeks about which we have not talked that arrested your attention? mr. taylor. uh--nothing, outside of possibly some insights into marina--i mean, her personality and how she acted. there was nothing that arrested my attention. mr. jenner. all right. tell us about that. mr. taylor. uh--she personally seemed to be person of a number of fine qualities--an excellent mother, possibly even doting too much upon her child, and a clean person in her habits and, as best she could, in her dress. and she seemed very intelligent and interested in learning all that she could about her new environment. mr. jenner. you don't mean her new environment in your home--you mean----? mr. taylor. i'm talking about in this country. mr. jenner. yes. mr. taylor. and i do have one recollection pursuant to this about her desire to learn english. mr. jenner. i was going to ask you about that. go ahead. mr. taylor. during the period that i knew them, on several occasions, this subject came up. and lee was in opposition to her learning english--not--he would not come out, at least, never did around me, and say that he didn't want her to learn english but--uh--he was or did appear to be in opposition to it. and george de mohrenschildt prepared for marina several lessons in english--and i believe that lee later took them away from her. mr. jenner. i would like to have you give me as much on this series of incidents, with respect to her learning the english language and becoming more proficient in its use. first--as to what you based your present comments upon, by way of what occurred, that you recall? something occurred to her to lead you to state as you have stated in terms of conclusion that lee did not wish her to learn the english language. and, secondly, that lee took from her the english language lessons. i assume they were on sheets of paper. is that correct? mr. taylor. yes. mr. jenner. that george bouhe had prepared for her? mr. taylor. george de mohrenschildt. mr. jenner. yes; that george de mohrenschildt had prepared for her? mr. taylor. i remember asking lee about his opposition to it on one occasion and as i remember he told me that--uh--or brushed it aside by saying, "it isn't necessary at this time"--something like that. and then, of course, he did take the lessons from her. mr. jenner. how do you know that? mr. taylor. uh--because, as i remember, this was the first time that i had knowledge of her being beaten by him. mr. jenner. all right. tell us about that. mr. taylor. as i remember it, shortly after they moved, mrs. de mohrenschildt---- mr. jenner. they moved where? into your home or from your home? mr. taylor. moved into their apartment here in dallas--the first apartment they had, on elsbeth. mrs. de mohrenschildt came by and told us that she had seen marina and that she had a black eye, i believe, and was crying and said that she and lee had had a fight over the lessons and they had been taken from her, and---- mr. jenner. lee had struck her? mr. taylor. yes; that lee had struck her. mr. jenner. she said that to you? mr. taylor. yes; this is mrs. de mohrenschildt now. this is not marina that said that. mr. jenner. yes; i appreciate that. mr. taylor. and--not pursuant to that, but while we are speaking of their marital troubles, i seem to remember on one occasion where marina left--i think this was somewhat later, probably in november---- mr. jenner. left the home? mr. taylor. left lee and went to stay with someone--i don't remember who. it may have been this woman in irving that she was living with. mr. jenner. mrs. paine? mr. taylor. mrs. paine. i do not know where she went except that i was told that she had left him. mr. jenner. all right. anything else that comes to your mind with respect to their relations, one with the other, and whatnot, covering this -week span while she was a visitor in your home? mr. taylor. the only other observation i would make is that--again, it has to do with relationship between them--and that is that to my knowledge at all the meetings between them that i was present at during this -week period, there was no personal communication between them--at least, that i was able to determine. of course, i couldn't understand them when they spoke to each other in russian. but, certainly, for this length of time, you would think that a man and woman married would want some time alone together. they could have--we had parks nearby, within one door of us was a big park where they could have taken walks and been alone together and talked--but this never happened. mr. jenner. uh-huh. mr. taylor. it was just like two friends meeting. there was nothing intimate or personal between them at these meetings. mr. jenner. no expressions that you could understand or, at least, conduct between them that would lead you to believe there were evidences of love and affection? mr. taylor. that's right. mr. jenner. it was more platonic--a friendship relationship? mr. taylor. uh-huh. mr. jenner. did he visit on more than one occasion in your home during the -week period? mr. taylor. yes; on several occasions. mr. jenner. and on these occasions, was it always that he called and asked to come over, or were you told that he was coming and there had been a previous arrangement--or what do you recall as to that? mr. taylor. well, i think perhaps once or twice marina instigated their meetings, would call him and he would then come. mr. jenner. was he always transported, or did he come---- mr. taylor. i think he may even have come by himself once or twice. we were not far from downtown and had good bus service--and i remember at least one occasion where he rode the bus. he left late one evening and rode the bus back to town. mr. jenner. any questions, at any time during the -week period or at any other time, about his ability to operate an automobile on the streets? mr. taylor. yes; there was discussion about this possibly on two or three occasions. mr. jenner. with him? mr. taylor. i don't remember him being present or having knowledge of them. mrs. de mohrenschildt tried to get me to teach him how to drive, and i never did. mr. jenner. you never got around to it? mr. taylor. i never had any time or inclination to use my automobile to teach a beginner how to drive. mr. jenner. your understanding was from mrs. de mohrenschildt that he was unable to operate an automobile? mr. taylor. that's right. mr. jenner. but you had no direct conversation with him on the subject? mr. taylor. no. mr. jenner. or with marina through an interpreter? mr. taylor. no. mr. jenner. did this conversation with respect to inducing you to attempt to teach him to drive a car occur in the presence of marina? mr. taylor. yes. mr. jenner. do you recall whether mrs. de mohrenschildt then, in russian, spoke to marina on the subject in your presence? mr. taylor. no; i don't remember the details such as that on the various discussions we had. i just remember that on several occasions they did try to get me to do it, and i refused. mr. jenner. did you receive or was there paid or offered to be paid to you anything by them, lee or marina, financially for this generosity on your part of keeping her in your home for that -week period? mr. taylor. no. mr. jenner. you never received anything? mr. taylor. no. mr. jenner. did you receive anything from anybody other than marina and lee oswald? mr. taylor. no. mr. jenner. you never received anything from anybody at all? mr. taylor. no. mr. jenner. the answer is "yes; you have never received anything from anybody." mr. taylor. i never received any financial reimbursement for any of the expenditures that i made on their behalf. mr. jenner. all right. now, the -week period concluded and was there something that occurred in particular that brought about the termination of that -week guest period? mr. taylor. mrs. hall--i believe you said elena--had an automobile accident and i think marina went to fort worth and lived in mrs. hall's home so that she might help mrs. hall. mrs. hall was at least semibedridden. she was certainly not able to get up and cook herself food and so on. mr. jenner. was she living alone at that time? mr. taylor. yes she was. mr. jenner. that is, mrs. hall? mr. taylor. yes; the only reason i remember about mr. hall was by associating it with either midland or abilene--i don't remember which one. it was west texas anyway. and he was living there at the time. mr. jenner. and her leaving your home then--there was no cause or reason for it other than that, as you now understand or from your memory of it, that mrs. hall had been involved in an automobile accident, was partially bedridden, was having some difficulty in any respect; she was then by herself because her husband was in west texas and at that time they were, as you understood, separated? mr. taylor. or divorced. i don't remember which. mr. jenner. and marina went to mrs. hall's home in fort worth to help care for mrs. hall? mr. taylor. yes. mr. jenner. now, that would take us to about the last week in november--somewhere in that area--i mean september--is that correct? mr. taylor. september; i should think; yes. toward the end of september, and possibly even early in october--again, due to time, this is all quite vague--i had lee with me. i don't remember where i got him. but lee and my wife, alex, and i went to fort worth and picked up marina and their child and all of the oswald's belongings that had, through this period, been stored at mrs. hall's, and brought them to dallas. mr. jenner. now, you went to mrs. hall's--is that where you went? mr. taylor. yes. mr. jenner. when you reached the halls' you picked up the oswalds' house paraphernalia, clothing and other things---- mr. taylor. yes. mr. jenner. or whatever had been stored at the halls' you picked up? mr. taylor. yes. mr. jenner. now, your recollection doesn't serve you at the moment to be more specific as to how this came about? mr. taylor. it doesn't. not at all. i can't even remember now where i got lee that day. i wish i could--for several reasons you are probably aware of. but i don't remember. and, at any rate, we went to fort worth---- mr. jenner. excuse me. do you recall being interviewed by two agents of the fbi on the th of january . mr. taylor. i think so. mr. jenner. would it refresh your recollection did you tell those agents at that time that you picked up lee oswald at the curb of the ymca in dallas and drove to fort worth to the hall residence where marina was living? mr. taylor. well, it is refreshing to my memory, but i would like to say this about it. that in the course of several interviews by the fbi, the secret service, and the dallas police department which have occurred, and between these and since the last one, i have naturally tried to remember all that i can concerning the areas in which i was vague in my memory. and at my last interview concerning this one particular item, it occurred to me that at one time--once--i went to--uh--and looked for a place where lee was staying in the oak cliff area of dallas and tried to locate him. i remember going and trying to locate him. i don't remember whether i found him or whether i did not. i know that--uh---- mr. jenner. can you pinpoint this as to time? mr. taylor. no; that's the trouble. i can't pinpoint it as to time. i just remember some vague directions that---- mr. jenner. what about year-- ? mr. taylor. definitely. mr. jenner. and it had to be some time after---- mr. taylor. it had to be some time between september and november , because my wife and i separated after that. anyway, at some point during this period, i do remember going to an area in oak cliff and looking for lee. i don't think i found him--at least, not on the occasion i remember. all i had was some vague directions that---- mr. jenner. from whom? mr. taylor. well, directly from my wife but indirectly i believe that came to her from mrs. de mohrenschildt. mr. jenner. were you requested to seek to locate him? mr. taylor. i don't know why i was trying to locate him. i don't remember anything except i remember driving around one area one evening looking for a residence of his on some vague directions. as i say, i don't even remember if it was a residence of the whole family or just of lee. i went back to this area within the last few weeks and located a building that stuck--or i had a recollection of one building in this area and i went back to the area and found it and gave that information to agent yelchek of the fbi. i don't know what he---- mr. jenner. what location was that? mr. taylor. i gave him the exact street address--but it seems to me like it was--well, the name of the apartment building was the coz-i-eight [spelling] c-o-z--i--e-i-g-h-t--apartments, and i think they were located at north beckley. but the address i could be off on; but the name i do remember. mr. jenner. what kind of a building was this? mr. taylor. an apartment building. mr. jenner. brick? mr. taylor. yes. mr. jenner. a more substantial-type thing than you had seen the oswalds occupy prior thereto? mr. taylor. repeat, please. mr. jenner. was this a building of a substantiality higher caliber than the elsbeth street home, for example? mr. taylor. uh--i would say it was in the same class. mr. jenner. did the occasion arise in which lee oswald called you to ask you to assist in moving him and marina to an apartment in dallas? mr. taylor. i'm not sure how definitely that was--i'm not definitely sure how that was instigated. i'm not sure. it was either lee directly or mrs. de mohrenschildt that asked for this assistance in moving. whichever it was, my wife and i got together with lee, i believe, on a sunday afternoon. mr. jenner. did you pick him up or did he come to your home? mr. taylor. i cannot remember. mr. jenner. did he have anything with him in the way of luggage? mr. taylor. i believe he did. mr. jenner. describe it, please. mr. taylor. i believe he had a paper bag of clothing, a rather large one, and an old leather suitcase. and that he had these two containers of personal belongings, and we went to fort worth and added marina's to this--marina's belongings and the household furnishings, whatever they were, and brought it all to the elsbeth street apartment. mr. jenner. now, did you pile all of this clothing and household furniture, to the extent they had any, in the rear of your automobile, and haul it back to dallas? or how did you do this? mr. taylor. i rented a trailer in fort worth. mr. jenner. now, where did you rent that trailer? where was the place located from which you rented the trailer? mr. taylor. i do not remember. i have even been to this place recently again with mr. yelchek of the federal bureau of investigation. and we went over one evening and pinpointed the location of that service station where i had rented a small covered trailer and---- mr. jenner. a small covered trailer? mr. taylor. yes; it was covered. mr. jenner. and give me the location of the place you pinpointed with mr. yelchek. mr. taylor. i don't remember an address on the service station. it is a mile or so north of texas christian university in fort worth. mr. jenner. i see. does university drive sort of refresh your recollection? mr. taylor. it--uh--could be university; yeah. however, it was not university drive. it was another street which i just can't remember. this service station was west of the south freeway, as i say, about a mile north of texas christian university. mr. jenner. uh-huh. mr. taylor. i did originally think that it was on university but, upon investigation of the--visual investigation, actually being there one evening, why we did locate it and it was in another place. mr. jenner. the place that you located when mr. yelchek accompanied you was different from the one that you had remembered when you first talked to the fbi? mr. taylor. yes; however, it, in my mind, is a positive identification. there is no question about it. mr. jenner. your more recent one is? mr. taylor. yes; when mr. yelchek and i went. i was able to positively identify the location. i might add, after having talked to him since then, that the owner says that--or there is no record of the rental at this location. there seems to be a set of duplicate books involved--one for themselves and one for the national trailer co., whichever one it was. a little fraud, or something, involved in that. we didn't get too involved in it--just to know that there wasn't any record. mr. jenner. is the name j. h. pendley familiar to you? mr. taylor. no. mr. jenner. do you have your driver's license with you? mr. taylor. yes. mr. jenner. would you look at it and tell me what the number of it is? mr. taylor. . and that's my memory that's talking. (witness then takes the driver's license from billfold and hands to mr. jenner.) mr. jenner. . (hands license back to witness.) did the people from whom you rented the trailer take your driver's license number on that occasion? mr. taylor. i don't remember. it's common--in fact, it's normal procedure to take the license number--driver's license and vehicle license. mr. jenner. how long have you had that number? mr. taylor. it's permanent in the state of texas. mr. jenner. so you had it on this occasion--the same number? mr. taylor. yes. mr. jenner. what's the practice in texas in respect to license numbers? do you get a new one every year, or do you get a sticker--or what? mr. taylor. vehicle? mr. jenner. yes. mr. taylor. they change from year to year. mr. jenner. they change the number? mr. taylor. yes; they do. mr. jenner. do you, by any chance, remember your license number in ? mr. taylor. no. mr. jenner. do you ever recall having a license number with the digit letters "e" and "y"? mr. taylor. i would never have a license tag with that number. mr. jenner. with those prefix letters? mr. taylor. yes; as long as i lived in dallas. mr. jenner. why is that, sir? mr. taylor. the "e" prefix--the prefixes beginning with "e" are for tarrant county, of which fort worth is a part. mr. jenner. and you being in dallas county, your initials are what--your prefixes? mr. taylor. in dallas county they would be some of the "m" prefix, all of the "n" and "p". mr. jenner. "n" as in "nancy," "p" as in "paul"? mr. taylor. yes; and some of the "m" as in "mary." mr. jenner. but it would be a combination of two or more of those three letters? mr. taylor. it would be a combination of two letters beginning with the three that we have just been discussing. mr. jenner. from one of the three we have just discussed? mr. taylor. beginning with either an m, an n, or a p. all of the n's and p's--like na or ns or pa or pz. mr. jenner. all right. you piled all this material in the covered trailer? mr. taylor. yes. mr. jenner. this was on a sunday, as i recall your saying? mr. taylor. yes. mr. jenner. when did you return that trailer? mr. taylor. the same day. mr. jenner. and you went from mrs. hall's to where with the loaded trailer? mr. taylor. i took the loaded trailer to an apartment on elsbeth street in dallas. mr. jenner. and then what happened when you got there? mr. taylor. we unloaded it and i returned the trailer to the service station where i had rented it in fort worth. mr. jenner. did you pay for the renting of that trailer? mr. taylor. i don't remember for sure. mr. jenner. well, somebody paid for it. it wasn't just given to you, was it? mr. taylor. no. it wasn't given to me. i do not remember, however, who paid for it. i--it comes to mind that lee probably did--but i can't say specifically that lee did it. mr. jenner. did lee accompany you to the service station to rent the trailer in the first instance? mr. taylor. yes. mr. jenner. and your recollection does not serve you now as to whether upon its return, he paid for it or you did? mr. taylor. no; payment would be in advance. mr. jenner. that would be an out-of-pocket payment. would you say your recollection is, in view of your haziness about it, that you did not pay for it? mr. taylor. that's right. mr. jenner. you returned the trailer. did you help put the household furniture and whatnot into their apartment? mr. taylor. yes. mr. jenner. did you do that before you returned the trailer? mr. taylor. yes. mr. jenner. after you returned the trailer, did you return to their apartment that same afternoon or evening? mr. taylor. i can't be absolutely sure whether i returned that evening or not. i'm not sure whether they went back with us or not. i don't---- mr. jenner. back with you where? mr. taylor. back to fort worth to return the trailer. i don't know if they took that ride over there with us or not. mr. jenner. that would be how much of a ride? mr. taylor. uh--round trip it would take probably hour and minutes. mr. jenner. what is the distance from the elsbeth street address to fort worth--just approximately? mr. taylor. well, to the place in fort worth where the trailer was rented, i would say, it was about miles. and, in case you're wondering about the time, it's all a turnpike and expressway trip. mr. jenner. all right. did you see the oswalds, or either of them, after that time? mr. taylor. yes. mr. jenner. next, and under what circumstances? mr. taylor. sometime after the move--i am not, again, can't be specific about dates--my memory isn't that good--i visited them by myself, and i believe that the purpose of that visit specifically was to return a manuscript, or at least it's been called that, certainly just a collection of notes lee had that he had compiled on his visit to fort worth--i mean, on his visit to russia. mr. jenner. i show you in a volume which has a sticker on its front entitled "affidavits and statements taken in connection with the assassination of the president," which has been supplied to me by the dallas city police, and i direct your attention to pages to . and i ask you whether those pages are familiar to you as being either all or a part of what you now describe as notes prepared by lee oswald on his trip or life in russia? mr. taylor. can we go off the record and let me look at this a minute? it will be a minute, because i only looked at part of this thing. (witness peruses document page by page.) mr. jenner. have you examined those pages, which are a photostatic copy of what purports to be a draft by lee harvey oswald of various stages of his life, including time in russia, in the marines, the period in new orleans, and what not? mr. taylor. those are not the same pages of which i was speaking. mr. jenner. i should advise you, mr. taylor, that they are incomplete. that is, we are advised that there are other sheets which we don't happen to have. i could ask you this: was it on the type of paper which is indicated in these photostats--that is, lined by - / sheets? mr. taylor. no. mr. jenner. it was not? mr. taylor. no; it was not. mr. jenner. was it ringed notebook paper? mr. taylor. no; it was not. mr. jenner. are you familiar with lee oswald's handwriting? mr. taylor. no; i am not. mr. jenner. was this material you saw in his handwriting or was it typed? mr. taylor. i would not know--this material? i'm sorry. i was thinking about---- mr. jenner. the material that you saw, was that in his handwriting? mr. taylor. it was typed. mr. jenner. it was typed? mr. taylor. it was typed--on white paper. mr. jenner. plain white paper? mr. taylor. yes. mr. jenner. i interrupted you because you had mentioned something he showed you. now, would you please go on? mr. taylor. yes; and the occasion for this visit that i was talking about was to return what has been discussed as a manuscript. and i had had this in my possession from the time marina had been staying with us. i had asked him for it then and intended to read it. i did not ever read it fully. i read a page or two of it--of which my recollection is very dim. i remember almost nothing about it except that it seemed to be in a narrative style and was about his experiences in russia. mr. jenner. what impression did you have as to spelling, grammar, or content? was it the writing of an educated man, or was it sophomoric in character, or do you have any impression about it? mr. taylor. i don't have any impression--having read so little of it such a long time ago. mr. jenner. well, you went to see him to return this manuscript? mr. taylor. yes. mr. jenner. where was he living? mr. taylor. he was still living on elsbeth. mr. jenner. and you reached their apartment, did you? mr. taylor. yes. mr. jenner. was she home? mr. taylor. yes, she was. mr. jenner. did you visit with them on that occasion? mr. taylor. yes; i did. i was treated as a very welcome guest. i assumed, at the time, that the reason for that was i was probably the only guest they had had--or at least certainly that guests were unusual, and that i was very welcome. as a matter of fact, almost immediately after i arrived, marina left and walked some two and a half blocks to a doughnut shop and bought some doughnuts and returned. and we just talked briefly that evening--not about anything in great detail. i stayed--i didn't go to stay a long time, just to return the manuscript, but due to the hospitality that was extended, i stayed perhaps an hour or hours. mr. jenner. how did they appear, in their relations one to the other, on this occasion? mr. taylor. it appeared that--uh--they were getting along well. when i arrived, the baby was asleep and they were both in the kitchen. he was sitting at a table, i think, reading and---- mr. jenner. a book or a newspaper? mr. taylor. sir? mr. jenner. reading a book or a newspaper? mr. taylor. a book, i believe. i think he checked out a number of books from the library. mr. jenner. did you understand him to be an avid reader? mr. taylor. yes. mr. jenner. did you ever observe what character of books he was reading? mr. taylor. as i remember, they were primarily political philosophy. i don't remember any titles specifically. i think he did have a copy of--uh--at one time, of something by karl marx. i don't remember the title or name of the book. mr. jenner. "das kapital"? mr. taylor. i'm aware of that title--but i just don't remember what he had a copy of. mr. jenner. but they were political---- mr. taylor. yes. mr. jenner. books on political philosophy, governmental structure, and philosophy? mr. taylor. i would say primarily on philosophy. mr. jenner. philosophy or theories of government? mr. taylor. uh-huh. mr. jenner. all right. you had, i gather, a reasonably pleasant visit on this particular evening? mr. taylor. yes. mr. jenner. did you see them again after that? mr. taylor. i did not see both of them again after that. sometime much later---- mr. jenner. this is much later but prior to november , ? mr. taylor. prior to november of ? is that what you meant? mr. jenner. i had concluded you were speaking of prior to---- mr. taylor. no; i did make contact with them after my separation--if that's what you are alluding to. in the spring of i dropped by this elsbeth apartment building and, finding no one at home, i asked someone who was sitting in the courtyard about them. and i think he was the manager. and he told me that they had moved and he told me where they had moved. mr. jenner. what did he say? mr. taylor. he told me that they had moved into a small apartment about a block away. and i went there. mr. jenner. what street was that? mr. taylor. i don't remember. mr. jenner. what town? mr. taylor. dallas--about a block away from elsbeth. and, anyway, i went to this--where i had been directed, and found marina at home. mr. jenner. was lee at home? mr. taylor. no, he was not. mr. jenner. what day of the week was this? mr. taylor. i don't remember. mr. jenner. why did you go there? mr. taylor. just for a friendly visit. marina was at home. she--her english had improved enough for her to get across to me a few ideas. she said that lee was not home, that--uh--i don't remember her saying where he was. she said that he was attending night school, crozier tech here in dallas--which is our technical high school and---- mr. jenner. was this occasion in the early evening? mr. taylor. i think it was in midafternoon. mr. jenner. midafternoon? mr. taylor. yes. mr. jenner. are you certain about that? mr. taylor. yes; uh--because this apartment in question had a small balcony on the front of it and i remember the door was open and i thought what a nice place for the baby to play and some of the baby's toys--a ball and something or other--were out there on this porch, and i thought how much nicer this was than the apartment they had had. mr. jenner. was that what led you to suggest that it was in the afternoon rather than the early evening? it doesn't get dark here in texas--and this was what? the spring, did you say? mr. taylor. yes. mr. jenner. ? mr. taylor. yes. no; you are trying to say that it may have been early evening, although it was still quite light. my memory tells me that it was midafternoon. mr. jenner. all right. was anything said about the fact he was working? mr. taylor. i don't remember her saying what he was doing or if he was working at all. mr. jenner. i shouldn't have used the term "working"--whether he was employed? mr. taylor. uh--i don't think at that time he was. again, it's just a very, very vague recollection. mr. jenner. was she able to communicate with you, or you to understand, as to what studies he was pursuing at crozier tech? mr. taylor. no; i don't believe that i remember what he was studying at all at crozier tech. i did inform marina of my impending divorce and--uh--in other words, telling her that mrs. taylor and i were no longer living together and we had separated. uh--and she said that she had been ill, i believe. and--uh--she invited me to come back in the evening and i left. and i would say the whole interview with her took certainly no longer than minutes. mr. jenner. uh-huh. and this, as you recall, was in ? mr. taylor. yes. mr. jenner. was anything said that his attendance at crozier tech was in the night school? mr. taylor. yes; it was in the night school. mr. jenner. but your visit was in the midafternoon? mr. taylor. that's right. mr. jenner. did she indicate to you that he was then at crozier tech or that he would be at crozier tech that evening? mr. taylor. she, i don't believe, indicated either thing to me. i don't--i can't honestly say that she indicated where lee was at the time. she may have said he was at work or not at work. mr. jenner. you just don't have enough recollection to know whether she said he was employed and working and had work at that time? mr. taylor. uh--the general impression is that he was not working, but it is not distinct enough to make a flat statement upon. mr. jenner. is that the last time you ever saw marina? mr. taylor. yes. mr. jenner. when was the last time you ever saw lee? mr. taylor. the previous occasion i have mentioned where i went to visit them in the evening to return the manuscript. that was the last time i saw lee. mr. jenner. that was prior to november , ? mr. taylor. yes; i don't know why he wanted that manuscript at that time. i know that he wanted it very badly. mr. jenner. he called you for it? mr. taylor. uh--yes, he did. on two occasions. and, on the second one, i think i got in the car and took it to him. mr. jenner. uh-huh. he called you on the telephone? mr. taylor. yes. mr. jenner. now, before i go to the de mohrenschildts, i'd like you now to give me--now that we've had this discussion between us--your impressions of the oswalds individually. (off-the-record discussion followed.) mr. taylor. uh--my impression, first, of lee would be that--uh--he was, first, rather confused, particularly, politically. he wanted to be well-informed and an idealist. he considered himself well-informed. i don't think he was even very knowledgeable on the subject. in our conversations, when i would take exception to something he had said and argue a point with him, why, superficially, he could make a statement or support an idea that is commonly regarded in some areas as being true--such as, well, the republican and democratic parties have different ideas on how things should be done just as democracy and communism have. mr. jenner. yes. mr. taylor. and he could present communist ideas to a point that it was very superficial--and when you started digging down in to the meat of the subject, why, lee was through. he seemed to have perhaps read quite a bit of political philosophy, but when it came to really understanding it, he couldn't present a very good case for it. mr. jenner. was he emotional in that respect? mr. taylor. he would--uh--not any more so than anyone else you would get into a political discussion with. this seems to be a fairly emotional subject on everyone's part. mr. jenner. you didn't regard him as a vicious type--as a man who would think in terms of inflicting bodily harm if frustrated? mr. taylor. uh--well, i thought of him as a man who--uh--would kick a dog or beat his wife, but--uh--i was never afraid of him because i never felt like that he would attack anything his equal. mr. jenner. you were a bigger man than he, weren't you? mr. taylor. well, even a person--even a grown human being, any male, i wouldn't ever have expected this of him. mr. jenner. regardless of size? mr. taylor. regardless of size. anything that could present a forceful retaliation, why, i would not have expected him to---- mr. jenner. was he mild-mannered, or---- mr. taylor. he tended to be, in temperament, a little hot; but there was a very definite limit to it--even suggesting some inner cowardness. mr. jenner. did you ever have occasion to observe marina when she had any black and blue marks on her person? mr. taylor. [pausing before reply.] no. mr. jenner. did he ever mention the kennedys or the connallys? mr. taylor. no. mr. jenner. did he ever mention the administration of either of them or their policies? mr. taylor. uh--no; i'm not even sure that connally was in office at that time. mr. jenner. well, he was secretary of the navy. mr. taylor. that's right. i was thinking of him as governor. i never heard lee take exception to government officials; take exception to government policies--definitely---- mr. jenner. we all do this sometimes but never to the human being that might formulate them. just to the policy itself. did he ever mention jack ruby or jack rubenstein in your presence? mr. taylor. no. mr. jenner. was he a drinking man? mr. taylor. no. mr. jenner. give me as best you can now recall--did you ever loan him any money or give him any money? mr. taylor. no. mr. jenner. but you did things for him. you made expenditures in their behalf? mr. taylor. yes. mr. jenner. did you ever pay for any of the dental care administered to marina? mr. taylor. no. to my knowledge, that expense was borne by the county. mr. jenner. at least, you never assumed any of it? mr. taylor. no. mr. jenner. have you now told us all of the occasions in which you either expended funds in their behalf or for them or accorded them help in your home, or otherwise were charitable to them? mr. taylor. yes. mr. jenner. were you aware that he was employed here in dallas by jaggars-chiles-stovall? mr. taylor. yes. mr. jenner. you ever pick him up there? mr. taylor. no. mr. jenner. what did you ever observe with respect to his cleanliness, his personal habits in that respect? mr. taylor. that his clothes, generally, appeared to have been worn several days, and it was always in question as to when he had taken his last bath. he was not a clean person, either in clothing or personally. mr. jenner. was there any contrast in that respect between himself and marina? mr. taylor. yes. mr. jenner. she was fastidious, was she? mr. taylor. yes; very much so. and the same thing applied to her treatment of the child. it never had a damp diaper on if she knew about it. it just had to be damp--it didn't have to be wet. mr. jenner. did you ever see him dressed up in the sense that you and i are dressed now--in a business coat? mr. taylor. no. to my knowledge, he did not own any clothing that would be acceptable in what we would call business circles, say. mr. jenner. did you ever see him with a tie on? mr. taylor. no. mr. jenner. give me your judgment as to the relationship between lee oswald and george de mohrenschildt. mr. taylor. uh--it's difficult to assess their relationship because there probably was more to it than i ever saw. but what little of it i saw, they were quite in opposition to each other--such as the lessons in english for marina. but i certainly think that they must have been closer than they appeared or the de mohrenschildts wouldn't have been so active in seeing that they got along well. mr. jenner. do you have any opinion as to whether george de mohrenschildt exercised any influence over oswald? mr. taylor. yes; there seemed to be a great deal of influence there. it would be my guess that de mohrenschildt encouraged him to move to dallas, and he suggested a number of things to lee--such as where to look for jobs. and it seems like whatever his suggestions were, lee grabbed them and took them--whether it was what time to go to bed or where to stay or to let marina stay with us while he stayed at the ymca. mr. jenner. and he tended to follow de mohrenschildt's suggestions? mr. taylor. yes. mr. jenner. i want to finish with the oswalds before i get to the de mohrenschildts. (looking through papers.) tell me, chronologically, about the de mohrenschildts and your relationships with them and who these various de mohrenschildts are? mr. taylor. in other words, i will go back time-wise and bring you up. mr. jenner. yes. mr. taylor. he was born in russia, i believe in georgia. this is, of course, all what i had been told for a while here. he was born in russia and i believe he went to the---- mr. jenner. now, this is what you were told and heard while you were---- mr. taylor. married to his daughter. mr. jenner. his daughter. and this comes by way of conversations over a long period of time? mr. taylor. that's right. mr. jenner. all right. mr. taylor. he was born in russia and, i believe, to a titled family. he claimed for himself the title of baron. original name was von mohrenschildt. mr. jenner. [spelling] v-o-n? mr. taylor. that's right. and that he came to this country--when, i'm not sure, but certainly prior to when he was associated with the university of texas in the capacity of instructor or professor in their geology department. and he married my former wife's mother in new york city. mr. jenner. repeat the names, please. mr. taylor. he married my former wife, alex's, mother--the present mrs. brandel--in new york city. mr. jenner. and was it your information that that was his first wife? mr. taylor. to my knowledge, that was his first wife. mr. jenner. all right. mr. taylor. they married approximately months before she was born. mr. jenner. before your wife was born? mr. taylor. before my wife was born, and that their divorce came rather quickly after she was born. and, from that time until he married the wife, dee or dee dee, my knowledge of him is rather sketchy. i know that, at least, part of the time they were married he resided in dallas, was evidently well-established in business here, and owned a home--which, i believe, he had built to his own plans--and was generally well-accepted here in the business community. and then he gets a little vague--at least to my knowledge--after that until or when i first met him-- , i'm sure. mr. jenner. was he then married? mr. taylor. he was then not married, to my knowledge. mr. jenner. all right. mr. taylor. he was living with the present mrs. de mohrenschildt but they were not married; also living with them was her daughter, christiana or chris or jeanne, jr.--whatever the particular alias she felt like at the moment. and i met them through her. mr. jenner. when you say "her," which---- mr. taylor. through christiana, jeanne's daughter. mr. jenner. whom you subsequently married? mr. taylor. no. this would be the half-sister. i guess it is a half-sister of my wife's. mr. jenner. all right. we should say, at this point, your former wife? mr. taylor. my former wife. this sure is involved. mr. jenner. you are doing all right. go ahead. mr. taylor. and i met christiana through a mutual girl friend and we dated over a period of a few weeks and then she left dallas and started attending u.c.l.a. as a student, and i don't believe i saw her any more until--uh--may or june of . mr. jenner. was the mutual friend through whom you became acquainted a nancy tilton? mr. taylor. no, no; the mutual friend was a girl named judy mandel, of dallas. mr. jenner. is the name nancy tilton familiar to you? mr. taylor. yes. mr. jenner. who is she? mr. taylor. she is a cousin of my wife at that time. mr. jenner. and your wife's name was alexandra? mr. taylor. yes. at any rate, i met--uh--at this time, i asked chris out on a date and she said that she had her little sister--i think is the way she termed it at that time--visiting her, and could i find someone for her to go out with at the same time. and i did that, and i think we went out--couples of four, or two couples--on two occasions. and then i started dating the younger of the girls, which was alex. and, during this time, why, i was in or around their home for a whole summer--in fact, until the time we married, and quite intimate with the whole family. does that bring it chronologically up to date--or would you like the otherwise? mr. jenner. well, i don't know what the "otherwise" is. mr. taylor. i skipped mrs. brandel in this, i think. they were married, as i mentioned, in new york city approximately months before my former wife was born and divorced shortly thereafter. and he stayed away--or stayed in the background of alex's life until when he and mrs. brandel, his former wife and alex's mother went into court and sued the previously mentioned mrs. tilton for her custody. when alex was born, mrs. tilton paid by check, which i saw, mrs. brandel $ , for custody of the daughter, alex; and they had to go into court and get this custody set aside--at which time the daughter went to paris and lived with mrs. brandel, where she lived at that time. mr. jenner. the daughter--this is christiana? mr. taylor. we're talking still about my former wife, alex. mr. jenner. your former wife lived in paris? mr. taylor. yes; my former wife, after the custody suit, was taken to paris by her mother where she lived until the spring of , when i met her. mr. jenner. now, while she was in paris, were you dating christiana? mr. taylor. yes; however, i was not even aware of alex's existence until i met her that evening, as previously described. mr. jenner. have you information as to where jeanne was born? mr. taylor. in china. mr. jenner. that's the present mrs. de mohrenschildt? mr. taylor. yes. my knowledge of her is that--uh--it's rather sketchy, because that's all my former wife knew of her. she was born in china. i believe her parentage, at least on one side, was russian. she claimed that, at any rate. and she traveled through her late teens and early twenties--i don't know exactly how long--with her former husband, mr. bogovallenskia, as ballet performers. mr. jenner. i see. i have a spelling of that name, mr. taylor, which is b-o-g-o-v-a-l-l-e-n-s-k-i-a [spelling]. mr. taylor. that may be more correct. this is phonetic here that i have [referring to paper]. mr. jenner. is that a maiden name or a married name? mr. taylor. that is her married name--jeanne's married name to---- mr. jenner. is jeanne the same as christiana? mr. taylor. no; jeanne is the mother. christiana is the daughter. mr. jenner. yes. mr. taylor. that is the name of christiana's father and the man i was just saying that jeanne traveled with as ballet performers in china. all of the press clippings i saw, i think, were prior to world war ii. and, as far as mr. bogo--as far as chris' father is concerned, he was in dallas during or and--uh--he had severe mental problems and chris returned with him to california where, the last i heard, he was resident of a state mental hospital. mr. jenner. uh-huh. and chris is now married to a gentleman whose given name is ragnar [spelling] r-a-g-n-a-r, but you don't recall his surname? mr. taylor. uh--i do not. my memory is rather vague, but it seems to me like, in connection with his name, that his father is either a vice president or is the executive vice president of hughes aircraft. i don't know anything about him other than that except i was told he is a physicist, as chris' father is, and he is a rather unusual character to meet and to know--being somewhat of a beatnik. but, at least, he seems to, when he works, be able to make an awful lot of money and he must have money because they--ragnar and chris--honeymooned on a yacht that he owned, and to my knowledge, since he has not worked--which is a period of years. mr. jenner. does george de mohrenschildt have a brother? mr. taylor. yes. mr. jenner. what's his name? mr. taylor. uh--he uses george de mohrenschildt's original name of von mohrenschildt. he is a professor at an ivy league university--cambridge, i think. mr. jenner. well, cambridge would be harvard. what about princeton? what about dartmouth? columbia? brown? cornell? mr. taylor. at the moment, i don't remember. i should remember. mr. jenner. did you ever meet him? mr. taylor. i never met him. i believe i talked to him on the telephone. he passed through dallas and called. i just talked to him briefly on the telephone. mr. jenner. now, give me your impression of de mohrenschildt. first, describe him. what kind of personality is he? mr. taylor. uh--he is a rather overbearing personality; somewhat boisterous in nature and easily changeable moods--anywhere from extreme friendliness to downright dislike--just like turning on and off a light. mr. jenner. what about his physical characteristics? large, small, handsome, or otherwise? mr. taylor. he's a large man, in height he's only about ' " but he's a very powerfully built man, like a boxer. mr. jenner. athletic? mr. taylor. he is athletic. and he has a very big chest, which makes him appear to be very much bigger than he actually is. mr. jenner. now, mr. taylor, do you know mr. liebeler? mr. liebeler is a member of the staff. mr. taylor. i don't believe i do. my letter told me that he would contact me. mr. jenner. all right. give me a little more about the personality of george de mohrenschildt's--and i think i'm about ready to let you go home. mr. taylor. i would say that he has an inflammable personality. and he's very likable, when he wants to be, and he oftentimes uses this to get something he wants, put a person in a good mood and then, by doing this, he tries to then drag whatever it is that he wants out of them. mr. jenner. is he unconventional? mr. taylor. yes; i would say that they lead a somewhat bohemian life. the furnishings in their home somewhat show this. mr. jenner. is he unconventional in dress? mr. taylor. yes; oftentimes wearing merely bathing trunks, and things like this, that--for a man of his age, which is about to --is a little unusual. mr. jenner. you mean out on the street? mr. taylor. on the street, as a constant apparel. he does not often work. in fact, during the times that i was married to his daughter, i have not known of him to hold any kind of a position for which he received monetary remuneration. so, as a result, why, he could spend his time at his favorite sport, which is tennis. and this could be in ° weather in the bathing shorts i mentioned--only. mr. jenner. on any time during the week? mr. taylor. any time during the week. they have always owned convertibles and they would ride in them in all kinds of weather with the top down. they are very active, outdoor sort of people. mr. jenner. when you say "they," you mean he and his present wife? mr. taylor. yes; uh-huh. mr. jenner. is she unconventional at times in her attire in the respects you have indicated in regards to him? mr. taylor. yes; very similar. mr. jenner. she, likewise, wears a bathing suit out on the street, does she? mr. taylor. yes; quite a bit. and usually a bikini. mr. jenner. what about his political philosophy? mr. taylor. uh--well, that's--uh--i have heard them say everything--from saying that he was a republican and she expressed democratic ideals, and they expressed desires to return to russia and live--so, it's all colors of the spectrum. anything that--again, so much of what they do is what fits the moment. whatever fits their designs or desires at the moment is the way they do it. mr. jenner. uh-huh. when did you marry your present wife? mr. taylor. in--let's see--on november , . mr. jenner. your present wife? mr. taylor. oh, i'm sorry. that was mr. de mohrenschildt's daughter that i married on that date. we married on september , . mr. jenner. have you had any correspondence from either of the de mohrenschildts in which there have been any allusions to the assassination of president kennedy or to either of the oswalds? mr. taylor. i have not personally received any correspondence at all from them. my parents have received correspondence from them--none of which mentioned--i take that back--in one case, the assassination was mentioned in passing; and the oswalds were not mentioned in specifics. mr. jenner. i take it, your parents are acquainted with the de mohrenschildts? mr. taylor. yes. mr. jenner. and does that acquaintance go back prior to your acquaintance with the de mohrenschildts? mr. taylor. no; that acquaintance was after alex and i got married. mr. jenner. i see. all right. now, we have had some discussions off the record. i will ask you first--is there anything you would like to add that occurs to you that you think might be helpful--as an occurrence having taken place or even general thoughts on your part--to the commission in this important investigation it has undertaken? mr. taylor. well, the only thing that occurred to me was that--uh--and i guess it was from the beginning--that if there was any assistance or plotters in the assassination that it was, in my opinion, most probably the de mohrenschildts. mr. jenner. on what do you base that? mr. taylor. i base that on--uh--their desire, first of all, to--uh--return to russia at one time and live there; uh--they have traveled together behind the iron curtain; uh--they took a trip to mexico, through mexico, on the avowed purpose of walking from laredo, tex., to the tip of south america---- mr. jenner. panama? mr. taylor. and---- mr. jenner. on beyond that? mr. taylor. beyond--to the tip of south america--the southern tip of south america. mr. jenner. all right. mr. taylor. uh--and this they claim to have done, yet further information indicated to me that their trip extended only to the portion of south america where the cuban refugees were being trained to invade cuba and that this trip coincided and that they were in the area while all this training was going on. and, so, from that--from these observations---- mr. jenner. do you conclude that they were attempting to spy on that invasion preparation? mr. taylor. yes; because where--they went to guatemala where the invasion troops were being trained, or they were in guatemala when they were supposed to be on a walking trip, and had taken up residence in the unoccupied home of some acquaintances there and--unbeknowing to anyone--and when these acquaintances returned---- mr. jenner. this was the trip during the time you were married to their daughter? mr. taylor. yes. mr. jenner. you are basing this information on communications from them, conversations with your wife, conversations that occurred after they returned? mr. taylor. yes; and to clarify it on the last point here, about them being in guatemala, in conversations with nancy tilton. mr. jenner. yes; i asked you about her. who is nancy tilton? mr. taylor. nancy tilton is the cousin who brought up my former wife, alex, after she was born. her mother never took her from the hospital. this mrs. tilton did. and on a visit to mrs. tilton's home, the people---- mr. jenner. mrs. tilton reared her? mr. taylor. yes; to age . on a visit to mrs. tilton's home---- mr. jenner. where is that? mr. taylor. in tubac, ariz. uh--mrs. tilton remarked that some friends of hers, the people in question in guatemala, had found them living in their home---- mr. jenner. had found the de mohrenschildts there? mr. taylor. yes, living in their home in guatemala and had forcefully evicted them from it. mr. jenner. that the tiltons had forcefully evicted the de mohrenschildts from the tilton home in guatemala? mr. taylor. no; it isn't the tiltons' home in guatemala. it was a friend of the tiltons. i don't remember their names. mr. jenner. well, who was evicted? the de mohrenschildts or the people who owned the house? mr. taylor. the de mohrenschildts were evicted when the people who owned it returned. mr. jenner. in other words, you gather from that that they had not had advance permission to occupy that home? mr. taylor. that's right. they had not had advance permission and had occupied it for a period of about weeks--as best the people who evicted them could determine from what was eaten and---- mr. jenner. in other words, they were trespassing? mr. taylor. that's right. (off the record discussion follows.) mr. jenner. you are basing your comment with respect to the de mohrenschildts' possible involvement, if there was any involvement by anyone else with oswald which you have already stated and you are stating the reasons why. and you have related the walking trip down through mexico to the tip of south america. this was at the time of the training of cuban refugees for a possible invasion of cuba. and it was during the period of time in which you were married to the de mohrenschildts' daughter? mr. taylor. that's correct. mr. jenner. and now you have made a remark that we didn't quite get. what was that? mr. taylor. are you speaking of what i said off the record? mr. jenner. yes. mr. taylor. i summed it up by saying that--uh--there was an indication here that they had been in an area where some spying or information-gathering might be valuable to communist interests. they had expressed a desire to live in a communist country; and that they had traveled extensively through communist countries. mr. jenner. what countries? mr. taylor. poland and hungary--no; i'm sorry. poland and czechoslovakia. and mr. de mohrenschildt told me one time that he had met marshal tito. mr. jenner. in yugoslavia? mr. taylor. yes. mr. jenner. and did they make any trips to europe during the period that you were married to their daughter? mr. taylor. no; they did not. these trips were prior to our marriage. however, i had seen photographs and had some pointed out to me in the family album--photographs of them in various communist countries. mr. jenner. i see. where does your former wife, alexandra, now live--if you know? mr. taylor. in wingdale, n.y. mr. jenner. is she married? mr. taylor. yes. mr. jenner. what's her husband's name? mr. taylor. gibson. i only know him as don gibson. mr. jenner. what business is he in? mr. taylor. i do not know. mr. jenner. where does christiana reside--if you know? mr. taylor. to my knowledge, they have not had a fixed residence since they married. my last communication from the de mohrenschildts said that they were on their way to europe and i don't know anything other than that. mr. jenner. all right. is there anything in addition to what you have already said that you would like to add to the record that you think might be helpful to the commission--that would open avenues for further investigation or give us directly information that might be helpful? mr. taylor. no. mr. jenner. we have been off the record once or twice, mr. taylor. is there anything that you now can recall that you related to me off the record that is pertinent here or, at least, that you might think is pertinent, that i have failed to bring out? mr. taylor. no; there is nothing. mr. jenner. is there anything that was stated in your off the record statements that you regard as inconsistent with any statement you said on the record? mr. taylor. no. mr. jenner. all right. now, you have the right to read this deposition if you wish. it will be ready sometime next week. you may communicate with me or mr. barefoot sanders, the u.s. attorney, and come in and read it and make any corrections, if you think any are warranted, make any additions if you think any are warranted, and sign it if you desire and prefer to sign it. you have all of those rights. you also have the right to waive that if you see fit. mr. taylor. for the sake of accuracy, i would like to read it. mr. jenner. all right. you call, i would suggest--this is a rather long deposition--about wednesday of next week. mr. taylor. all right. barefoot's an old friend. i'll call him. mr. jenner. all right. thank you very much. we appreciate it. it's much longer that i had anticipated--but you were very helpful and thanks for coming here despite the inconvenience. mr. taylor. that's quite all right. i hope i was of some help. testimony of ilya a. mamantov the testimony of ilya a. mamantov was taken at a.m., on march , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by messrs. albert e. jenner, jr., and wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsels of the president's commission. mr. jenner. mr. mamantov, do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. mamantov. yes, sir. mr. jenner. before i examine you, mr. mamantov, you are appearing voluntarily at our request? mr. mamantov. that's correct. mr. jenner. you understand, do you, that you are entitled to counsel if you wish counsel? mr. mamantov. no, sir. mr. jenner. but you don't wish counsel? mr. mamantov. i don't wish it. mr. jenner. and you are also entitled to purchase a copy of your transcript of your testimony at whatever the usual rates the reporters charge and you are also entitled to read over your testimony if you wish, and to either inspect or sign it, or you may have the right to waive the signing of your deposition. mr. mamantov. it doesn't matter--what the proper procedure is--i would like to read those--it's always possible, because the interpretation of a single word that would change the meaning by someone is up to you. if you want me to sign, i'll sign. if you don't, all right. mr. jenner. that's your option--you may sign it or not, as you see fit. mr. mamantov. that's my option--all right. mr. jenner. off the record. (discussion between counsel jenner and the witness mamantov off the record.) mr. jenner. on the record. if he wishes--it will be thursday morning probably--we would like to have it ready for you to read over, would that be convenient for you? mr. mamantov. yes, sir. mr. jenner. if you will come up to this office then, thursday morning, then one of the other of us will be here and a transcript of your testimony will be available to you to peruse if you wish. mr. mamantov. my name as you used my name was misspelled--i don't know if you want that--it was misspelled on my letter sent me. mr. jenner. when i examine you i will have you spell your name. go ahead and spell it for us now. mr. mamantov. it's m-a-m-a-n-t-o-v [spelling], it is an "an" and not "en" as you have it. mr. jenner. all right, give your full name and spell it. mr. mamantov. i'll give you my full name. mr. jenner. and how do you pronounce that full name? i-l-y-e [phonetic spelling], or i-l-a [phonetic spelling]? mr. mamantov. i-l-y-a [spelling], a. m-a-m-a-n-t-o-v [spelling], and the address has been changed in the meantime too--to fairway circle, richardson, tex., zip no. , if it is important. mr. jenner. did you give your telephone number? mr. mamantov. ad- - -- , it's a new number. mr. jenner. mr. mamantov, the commission desires to inquire of you because of your acquaintance with the de mohrenschildts, and your work with the dallas city police on november and . mr. mamantov. the d. mr. jenner. the d only, and you translated for marina oswald in that connection? mr. mamantov. right. mr. jenner. your acquaintance with the russian emigre group in the dallas-fort worth area and especially your acquaintance with marina to the extent you had one. you have given your full name and your full address. what is your business, profession, or occupation? mr. mamantov. a research geologist with sun oil co. mr. jenner. and how long have you held that position? mr. mamantov. since . mr. jenner. and is that your profession--a geologist? mr. mamantov. that's right. mr. jenner. and prior to , your employment was? mr. mamantov. with the donnally geophysical co. here in dallas as seismologist. mr. jenner. and over what period of time did that work extend? mr. mamantov. it covers , the summer of until the fall of , when i took my present job. mr. jenner. let's take one step back--by whom were you employed, or with whom were you associated, prior thereto? mr. mamantov. lion match co. mr. jenner. l-y-o-n [spelling]? mr. mamantov. l-i-o-n [spelling] match co. in new york. mr. jenner. in what capacity? mr. mamantov. as a production scheduling or scheduler for the machines. mr. jenner. i take it, then, though, you were a trained geologist, you at least at that phase of your career you were not pursuing your profession or your particular calling? mr. mamantov. right, because i just came from europe as a displaced person and i didn't speak english enough. mr. jenner. all right, i got back to where i was going to go faster than i thought. mr. mamantov. i'll put it this way--you want it in details--my life--approximately at that time? mr. jenner. not in great detail, but start out this way--i am a native of such and such country--and just tell us about yourself. mr. mamantov. all right. i am a native of russia. when i was my parents came to latvia. mr. jenner. they immigrated to latvia? mr. mamantov. right, and there i was raised and educated and i received my geological education and training. in , excuse me, , we left for germany with the retreating german army and i went to south germany, stayed until the american army moved in peissenberg, p-e-i-s-s-e-n-b-e-r-g [spelling], germany and in august of that year, excuse me, of , we went to a dp camp. mr. jenner. "dp" meaning displaced persons? mr. mamantov. displaced persons camp near guenzburg, g-u-e-n-z-b-u-r-g [spelling], germany. mr. jenner. you say "we", at the time were you married? mr. mamantov. i, oh, i was married all time. mr. jenner. when did you marry? mr. mamantov. . mr. jenner. a native of latvia or of russia? mr. mamantov. latvia, and my wife is latvian--native latvian. mr. jenner. by the way, what is your age, sir? mr. mamantov. and, so, i am--my mother-in-law was also with us. mr. jenner. who is she--what is her name? mr. mamantov. dorothy gravitis, g-r-a-v-i-t-i-s [spelling]. mr. jenner. and is she in this country? mr. mamantov. right. mr. jenner. all right. i'll ask you some more questions about her later. mr. mamantov. and her husband was arrested by the communist in and we haven't heard of him since that time. mr. jenner. you say "arrested by the communist" do you make a distinction when you use the word description "communist" as something different from the russians? mr. mamantov. oh, yes; nothing to do with the nation. as you know, communists are in latvia, communists are in russia, and communists are in germany, and nothing to do with the nation. i am using this as an occupational force--i'll put it this way. mr. jenner. all right. mr. mamantov. or way of government. mr. mamantov. that's correct. mr. jenner. and where did you receive your higher education? mr. mamantov. in riga, r-i-g-a [spelling], latvia, which is the capital of latvia, and the name of the university was the university of latvia. mr. jenner. and have you had graduate school education? mr. mamantov. that's where i got my graduate school. my degree is approximately equivalent to a local ph. d--it's actually between master's and ph. d. mr. jenner. when did you settle in dallas? mr. mamantov. in september . mr. jenner. and have you and mrs. mamantov resided in dallas ever since? mr. mamantov. no; my wife still was in roswell, n. mex., at that time and she moved to dallas immediately after the thanksgiving day. mr. jenner. in ? mr. mamantov. right. you see, we received our citizenship in november of at roswell, n. mex. mr. jenner. both you and your wife? mr. mamantov. whole family, and mrs. gravitis. mr. jenner. does that include mrs. gravitis? mr. mamantov. that's correct. mr. jenner. any particular reason why you were in roswell, n. mex. mr. mamantov. i was with donnally geophysical co. at that time. mr. jenner. and was its main office located there? mr. mamantov. no; this was the field party. the office is located here in dallas and we traveled--at the start of --post, tex.; brownfield, tex.; lubbock, tex.; hobbs, n. mex.; odessa, tex.; roswell, n. mex., and i left---- mr. jenner. i think that's enough. mr. mamantov. my family and my wife and i moved to mississippi for a month. mr. jenner. still employed by lion? mr. mamantov. still employed by the seising crew which was in magee, miss. from there we moved to palacious, tex. from there to coalgate, okla.; from coalgate, okla., to seminole, tex. my wife quit the company at that time and went to roswell to join the family. mr. jenner. is your wife a professional person also? mr. mamantov. she is not graduated from a law school, but she went quite a way. mr. jenner. she took legal training, training in the law? mr. mamantov. right, but she worked as a geologist--as geological computer for that particular company. mr. jenner. did she finish her law work in europe or here? mr. mamantov. no; she didn't graduate. the communists moved in and our law didn't exist at that time, as well you know. mr. jenner. for the purpose of the record, i am albert e. jenner, and this gentleman is jim liebeler. we are members of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the president's assassination commission, and under the provisions of executive order , dated november , , joint resolution of congress , and rules procedure adopted by the commission in conformance with the executive order and the joint resolution, we have been authorized to take the sworn deposition of mr. mamantov. i should also say to you, mr. mamantov--have you had -days' notice? mr. mamantov. yes, the secret service called me on friday and on saturday i received your letter, which was sent to my old address. mr. jenner. well, that might not be technically -days' notice. you are entitled under the rules of procedure to the -days' notice of the taking of your deposition. mr. mamantov. yes; friday, saturday, sunday--i had. mr. jenner. you are entitled to waive that full days if you desire, and do you agree to waive it? mr. mamantov. i mean--i agree to deposition--i don't know your legal terms. mr. jenner. we've got you into dallas, now. mr. mamantov. no; we got to seminole--one more place i went from there. no; two more places--i went from seminole to snyder, tex., and from snyder, tex., i went for weeks to forest, miss., and at that time i quit the company and got my job with sun oil co. here in dallas. mr. jenner. with sun? mr. mamantov. right; and purchased our home at east mockingbird in october, the st of october . mr. jenner. now, what is your facility in the command of the russian language, with particular reference to--did you or have you done any teaching of the language? mr. mamantov. yes; i am teaching since here in the dallas area. i taught scientific research to some men, of a research personnel in - . and, i taught in the austin college in sherman from--it was the fall of, yes, it was fall of and . no-- and . now, i am teaching at smu or dallas college, to be specific, of smu. mr. jenner. have you done any interpreting or translating? mr. mamantov. yes, sir; for the american geophysical union, quite extensively in , , and , and i think--yes-- i finished. mr. jenner. and have you also done any interpreting or translating for any law enforcement agencies? mr. mamantov. here in the states? mr. jenner. yes. mr. mamantov. let me think a little--no, i don't remember. i have translated minor papers, you see, like soviet union's marriage certificates and birth certificates for our local courts connected with divorces, and i might be of a help to a group of latvians, people here in town, when they received their citizenship, so much, but this is the first time for the police department. mr. jenner. all right. i'll get to that. have you ever been called upon by either any agency of the government of the united states or of the state of texas or the city of dallas to do any interpreting or translating? mr. mamantov. yes, i was called by the police force for the city of dallas around o'clock, november . mr. jenner. what year? mr. mamantov. of , on or minutes' notice. mr. jenner. it was or ? mr. mamantov. excuse me, . mr. jenner. i got from what you have said, then, you had no prior notice? mr. mamantov. no; sir. mr. jenner. you were called by some official of the city police department? mr. mamantov. yes; i was called by lt. lumpkin. i think he's lieutenant--they call him chief. mr. jenner. and you repaired then to the dallas city police station? mr. mamantov. excuse me, i was called by somebody else, a couple of minutes ahead of lumpkin--is it important? mr. jenner. i don't know--you might state what it is. mr. mamantov. all right. i was called by mr. jack chrichton, c-h-r-i-c-h-t-o-n (spelling)--i don't know how to spell his name right now, but i guess it is that, but i can find out in a day or two. mr. jenner. and who is he? mr. mamantov. he is a petroleum independent operator, and if i'm not mistaken, he is connected with the army reserve, intelligence service. and, he asked me if i would translate for the police department and then immediately mr. lumpkin called me. mr. jenner. all right, that was your first---- mr. mamantov. this was a period of five minutes, i would say, maximum. mr. jenner. this, then, was your first contact with or connection with this tragedy? mr. mamantov. that's correct. mr. jenner. and you then came to the dallas city police department, did you? mr. mamantov. right. however, i called fbi about half an hour before the police called me. you see, i was in the dentist's office when i heard lee oswald's name, and when this name appeared on the radio, i felt it is my duty to notify the fbi that i know of him and knew fairly well his background here in dallas. mr. jenner. and you so advised the fbi? mr. mamantov. yes. mr. jenner. that was a half hour ahead of the time---- mr. mamantov. this was approximately, i would say---- mr. jenner. : ? mr. mamantov. : . mr. jenner. i'll get into that background in a little while, mr. mamantov. you did go, then, to the dallas city police station? mr. mamantov. they sent a police car. mr. jenner. to pick you up? mr. mamantov. to pick me up--it was quite disturbing because there was sirens and red lights and the neighborhood was quite disturbed. mr. jenner. where did you reside at that time? mr. mamantov. east mockingbird. mr. jenner. east mockingbird? mr. mamantov. east mockingbird lane. mr. jenner. that's correct. and you were escorted into the dallas city police station? mr. mamantov. that's correct and was introduced to captain fritz. mr. jenner. go right ahead. mr. mamantov. he took me into a room filled up with the detectives--before we entered that room, i had to pass through the hallway filled up with the newspaper and tv and people. mr. jenner. you just went through that? mr. mamantov. i mean, i just went through with captain fritz there that i saw. mr. jenner. when you got into the room, now, whom did you see there? mr. mamantov. when i got into the room i saw marina, i saw mrs. paine, whom i knew, who has been once in our house, and i have numerous telephone conversations with her in regard to her learning russian. mr. jenner. does mrs. gravitis live with you? mr. mamantov. that's correct. mr. jenner. when you say "our house," that's the house in which you, your wife and mrs. gravitis reside? mr. mamantov. that's correct. she resides with us since --we never were separated. mr. jenner. is her first name dorothy? mr. mamantov. dorothy, and i saw mrs. paine and i saw next to her a young woman with a young baby whom i assumed to be marina oswald. mr. jenner. have you ever seen marina oswald in your life prior to that moment? knowingly? mr. mamantov. no; sir. mr. jenner. had you ever met her prior to that time? mr. mamantov. no, sir; i met her after that, accidentally. mr. jenner. no; this is prior--up to that moment, you had had no contact, no acquaintance whatsoever with her? mr. mamantov. that's correct. mr. jenner. nor with lee harvey oswald? mr. mamantov. no, sir; but marina and my mother-in-law had telephone conversations from my home, so i knew of her quite a bit through mrs. paine and mrs. gravitis, but i never had seen her in person, but i never had talked to her before, so from that room i was taken into another small room, and after a while mrs. paine and marina was brought in and she also had a baby. mr. jenner. and whom else, in addition to you, was in the room? mr. mamantov. there was a young detective, i forgot his name. then, there was another tall detective who actually questioned marina and for whom i interpreted. mr. jenner. do you remember his name? mr. mamantov. no, sir; but if i would see him i would place him. mr. jenner. and those were the persons? mr. mamantov. well, there was another person, the agent of the fbi, who was taking notes and sitting across at the desk. mr. jenner. what is his name? mr. mamantov. i don't remember. mr. jenner. is the name "hosty" familiar to you? mr. mamantov. it was "h", but i don't remember; but it was, either this young fellow that was the detective was hosty, or fbi, but it started with "h". mr. jenner. well, it might be "h"--hosty. mr. mamantov. right; and i talked to him after that a few minutes, he will recognize me and i recognize him when we get together. mr. jenner. you seem to be a man who has reasonably good powers of recall; would you start now, and i will try not to interrupt you, and relate as best you can recall, and as precisely as you can recall, at least the substance and the exact words of the questioning and the responses--the questioning of marina and the responses she gave? mr. mamantov. all right. shall i go ahead? mr. jenner. yes; just do it the way it comes naturally to you. mr. mamantov. all right. the problem is, i never tried to memorize this because--i mean--this was pure translation. mr. jenner. and you were probably a little excited then, too, weren't you? mr. mamantov. i was quite excited and i didn't feel like i should try to memorize it, but she was questioned if she lived at mrs. paine's residence in irving---- mr. jenner. to which she responded? mr. mamantov. she responded. mr. jenner. what did she say? did she respond in the affirmative, is what i was getting at? mr. mamantov. oh, yes; she said she was living there. mr. jenner. do the best you can, and i'll try not to interrupt you, but i'll have to, i'm sure, at times. mr. mamantov. i don't remember the questions, but i would remember approximately what she was asked. mr. jenner. all right. mr. mamantov. all right. she was asked if she lived with mrs. paine around that particular day and if she was that morning in mrs. paine's home. she answered positively then. mr. jenner. excuse me--i'm sure that positively is affirmative? mr. mamantov. affirmative. mr. jenner. by the way, as long as we are now interrupted again, what time was this-- : or o'clock. mr. mamantov. i would say it's : , because going to the police station i met my wife coming from work, which should be : or o'clock, i would say. then, she was asked if oswald spent that night in mrs. paine's home at that time, that night from to of november. mr. jenner. the previous evening? mr. mamantov. the previous evening and including the night. mr. jenner. yes. mr. mamantov. she affirmed that. then, how did he get up? she said he had an alarm clock on and this was the way he got up and he went into kitchen and supposedly had breakfast. they asked her also if usually she prepared breakfast for him, and if i remember right, she said usually she did, but this particular morning she didn't because she was tired and she had to get up to take care of her baby in an hour or so, so she didn't get up and he went into the kitchen and was supposed to eat breakfast. now---- mr. jenner. excuse me. was she questioned, or did she say anything about whether, when he left the bedroom and went into the kitchen to make his breakfast, whether he returned to her and said goodby to her? mr. mamantov. no; as far as i remember he didn't return. i mean, i don't think the question was asked to her. or, it is in my mind that he didn't return, relating the conversation to that particular time. mr. jenner. excuse me, mr. mamantov, may i say this--i don't want any of my questions to induce you to make a response that you don't recall definitely. mr. mamantov. no; i understand. mr. jenner. there are bits of information that we have of things we would like to find out. do you have a definite recollection that the subject was even brought up at that time, that is, whether he returned from the kitchen to the bedroom to say goodby to her before he left or are you refreshing your memory, is what i am getting at? if you have no recollection, i would prefer you say so. mr. mamantov. no; i'll put it this way. i remember conversations somewhere along the line that he did return to her room. i remember also when she got up she was wondering that he didn't eat breakfast; apparently coffee was poured or prepared either by him or by her, which, i don't remember, and he didn't eat breakfast, and this was after he left, we'll say, a few minutes. mr. jenner. don't let me interrupt you here before you finish your answers--do i gather correctly that what you are saying is that she stated there that night that she did go out to the kitchen? mr. mamantov. that morning. mr. jenner. that morning--that she did go out to the kitchen that morning and she found that he had not prepared any breakfast? mr. mamantov. no; i'll put it this way. she apparently slept a little bit longer after he left, and when she got up and went into the kitchen she found out he didn't eat breakfast, which was surprising to her. from this i made my opinion that she usually prepared breakfast for him and she ate. mr. jenner. excuse me, sir; when you testified a moment ago that she said she usually prepared breakfast for him, were you then rationalizing from the circumstance you have just stated, or do you recall that she said that? mr. mamantov. i understood--here's my problem--either i recall or i recall future instances from translating her life history. mr. jenner. it is important, mr. mamantov, for you to recall and to exclude from your mind--it is very difficult i appreciate--and to exclude from your mind what you have learned and to exclude from your mind what you have learned afterwards; that is, after november d. mr. mamantov. i realize that. mr. jenner. what i am trying to get now is exactly to the best of your powers of recall, what was said on that occasion by her without your rationalizing from facts you recall as to what she might have said; do you understand? mr. mamantov. i understand. as far as i know, she said that he didn't return backward--i mean--come back to her--she didn't get up at the time he was leaving. after a while she got up. mr. jenner. excuse me; now, as a result of this further questioning it is your present recollection that at the time you were doing the translating you---- mr. mamantov. right. mr. jenner. at the city police station, that she said was that he left the bedroom to make breakfast for himself, that he did not return to the bedroom, and she, because of being up during the night to care for the baby, she went back to rest or sleep and got up later on. mr. mamantov. that's correct. mr. jenner. did she say that she then went into the kitchen? mr. mamantov. yes. mr. jenner. and did she say what she found when she reached the kitchen? mr. mamantov. she found that the coffee wasn't--i mean, or, she thought he didn't eat. mr. jenner. he had not prepared breakfast, in fact? mr. mamantov. that's correct. mr. jenner. all right. mr. mamantov. then, i also remember her saying, but i don't remember how the question was put to her, that she went into the garage to check her belongings which were stored in the garage, mrs. paine's garage, and she saw a grey blanket which appeared to her in a little bit different position than she remember it before. mr. jenner. did she describe the configuration, shape--form of the blanket? mr. mamantov. that's what i'm saying--i'll come to it. then she was asked what was in that blanket before, why did she pay attention particularly to the blanket. she said he kept his gun in that blanket. now, she also said--she was asked if she would remember the gun, how it looked, she said, "probably--yes," she has seen not the whole gun but she has seen part of the gun wrapped in that grey blanket and at this moment the gun was brought in. mr. jenner. excuse me, she volunteered that when she got up and went to the kitchen, noticed that oswald had not prepared any breakfast---- mr. mamantov. right. mr. jenner. she then went to the garage; is that correct? mr. mamantov. that's correct, or she was led to that question, if she had gone to the garage, and she said continuously that "i went." i assume that she was led to that question when she stated that she went to the garage. mr. jenner. after she had inspected the kitchen? mr. mamantov. that's correct. mr. jenner. did she say whether mrs. paine was up and about at that time? mr. mamantov. no; i don't remember. mr. jenner. you don't remember anything about mrs. paine? mr. mamantov. you see, mrs. paine also gave a statement later on after marina finished. mr. jenner. let's stick with marina for the moment. mr. mamantov. that's correct, otherwise i would be confused. mr. jenner. did she say why she went to the garage or was she asked, and did she respond on that subject? mr. mamantov. to the best of my memory, she was asked and led to that question, if she had gone to the garage, if she had seen a blanket---- mr. jenner. excuse me, sir; they could be asking her, in connection with the questions, to see whether she went to the blanket later in the day. do you recall that the question--is it because of the questioning, or she voluntarily stated---- mr. mamantov. no; because of the question. mr. jenner. because of the questioning, that after she was in the kitchen that morning, at that time she then went into the garage for the purpose of examining the blanket and its contents? just relax and think about it. mr. mamantov. i'm afraid i wouldn't remember in such extent, if she went immediately or she went later or she went during the time when police was at mrs. paine's home, and i imagine those points are very important to you, and i don't remember at the moment, i mean, to the exact time. mr. jenner. yes; they are important--you see, your responses when you first approached this subject, the implication was she looked at the kitchen, and that she went immediately out into the garage. mr. mamantov. no; i'm afraid i cannot state positively whether she went during the day or whether she went immediately from the kitchen--i do not know. mr. jenner. you cannot state it? mr. mamantov. i don't know. mr. jenner. does your recollection serve you that she went before noontime? mr. mamantov. no; i cannot state. mr. jenner. or that she went out to the garage at any time before the police arrived, which was in midafternoon? mr. mamantov. that, i don't remember. i do remember that she was asked about blanket, if she has seen blanket, and she has seen blanket in a very unusual, or she said in unusual shape as she said she has seen before, about weeks. i remember her mentioning about weeks to the questioning. mr. jenner. do you mean by that, sir, that the shape and form of the blanket when she saw it that day was different from the shape and configuration when she had seen the blanket prior thereto? mr. mamantov. about weeks--yes. mr. jenner. your answer was "yes?" mr. mamantov. yes; it was in different shape than she had seen before. after that the question was asked what was in this blanket. she said it was his gun, she was asked when did he purchase the gun, where did he get this gun, and she stated she didn't know and also probably he would bring the gun from the soviet union, and also was asked the question if she would recognize the gun if the gun would be shown to her, and at this moment the gun was brought in. let me try to remember a little bit? mr. jenner. excuse me. mr. mamantov. yes. mr. jenner. in her responses to the questioning, did she say whether or not she had been aware of the presence of the gun and the blanket in the garage prior to november , ? mr. mamantov. this question was asked her. and, she gave a little bit evasive answer. mr. jenner. you tell us what she said rather than you giving your opinion as to whether it was evasive. mr. mamantov. oh, if i remember right, she said she didn't know if it were there. mr. jenner. she did not know---- mr. mamantov. that it was there on that particular morning; however, she has seen in the past, well, she thought, if i remember right, that lee took with him the gun and she was also asked---- mr. jenner. excuse me, she testified or she stated in your presence and you translated it? mr. mamantov. right. mr. jenner. that she was aware of the fact that the gun had been in the blanket in the garage? mr. mamantov. that's correct, sometime in the past. mr. jenner. yes; did she say whether she had seen the gun in the blanket in the garage prior to november ? mr. mamantov. if i remember right--yes. mr. jenner. did she describe what she had seen in the blanket when she had discovered it prior to november ? mr. mamantov. that's correct. mr. jenner. tell us what she said in that regard. mr. mamantov. she saw the stock of the gun, which was dark brown--black, she said. mr. jenner. these were responses of hers before the weapon was brought in the room? mr. mamantov. that's correct. mr. jenner. i want to stick to that period, before the weapon was actually brought into the room, and state what she said. mr. mamantov. they asked her also at that time when did he purchase the gun and such as where. if i remember right, she said she didn't know, she stated also that he had had a gun in the soviet union. they asked her a question if it was a dark brown or black gun. she said, "yes, it was the same color," and she said, "to me all guns are the same color," and then she was asked if she would recognize a gun if shown to her, and at that time the gun was brought in. mr. jenner. let's not go to that subject at the moment. i want to go back. mr. mamantov. all right. mr. jenner. what did she say, if anything, as to what she saw or discovered when she went into the garage that morning, the morning of november , to examine the blanket? mr. mamantov. no; here, i cannot state exactly if it was morning, noon or time police arrived, when she saw the blanket without the gun, and this--i don't remember--here is my time lapse--whenever she saw it. mr. jenner. but whenever she responded, whenever she saw it that day, what did she say as to what the package contained, if anything? mr. mamantov. the blanket was, i'll put it this way, different position as she has seen in the past. mr. jenner. you mean in a different position, in a different place in the garage? mr. mamantov. no; it was supposedly in the same place, but there wasn't anything in it. mr. jenner. you mean it was in a different shape or form or condition? mr. mamantov. i'll put it this way--condition. mr. jenner. did she say what the different condition was? mr. mamantov. i don't remember, but that attracted her attention. this i remember very well. she stated it attracted her attention--as she had seen before, so much i remember. mr. jenner. her attention was arrested by the fact that the condition, shape, form or configuration of the blanket package was different from what she had noticed it to have been in on prior occasions when she had seen it? mr. mamantov. evidently--if somebody, for instance, if you see a package in one shape and at different times, you see different shape. mr. jenner. did she describe the shape and form and condition of the package as she saw it prior to this particular occasion on november , what it looked like earlier, and then contrasting that with what it looked like on the occasion of november when she saw it again? mr. mamantov. if i remember right, going back, she had seen the package of elongated form and for some reason she opened it and saw a gun, and knowing it was lee's, at least a gun, and he didn't want her to touch his things, he was very particular, and after she opened a corner, she left it in same shape she had found it. mr. jenner. did she say whether she had pulled the gun entirely out of the package? mr. mamantov. no. no. mr. jenner. just the butt end? mr. mamantov. just the stock end and she covered immediately and back so as a result, she--she didn't pull out all--she didn't open the package. mr. jenner. did they question her as to where the package was in the garage, precisely, on the two occasions, that is, when she had seen it before november and the position it was located in in the garage when she saw it on november ? mr. mamantov. the question was asked and she answered, it was with her belongings which she couldn't bring into mrs. paine's home, and if i remember right, she said it was in one corner of the garage, and that particular day the blanket was in the same area, but was in a different shape or in a different condition. what it was, i don't know. it was in the garage in one of the corners. mr. jenner. what did she say as to the difference and the content? mr. mamantov. she said when she saw the blanket it didn't contain the gun. mr. jenner. it did not contain the gun? mr. mamantov. it did not contain the gun. mr. jenner. did she say anything about whether the blanket's form or condition was, for purposes of illustration not for the purpose of placing words in your mouth, that the blanket was absolutely flat when she saw it on the d, whereas, prior thereto it appeared to contain what she discovered was a rifle? mr. mamantov. i don't remember. mr. jenner. did she say anything about whether the package, the blanket package, was wrapped in any fashion, with string or any other wrapping of that character? mr. mamantov. i don't remember. mr. jenner. was that subject brought up? mr. mamantov. i don't remember. mr. jenner. at any time during the questioning was the blanket package brought into the room? mr. mamantov. no, sir. mr. jenner. was anything said when she was asked about her entry into the garage and her examination of the package as to whether anybody was with her when she did that? mr. mamantov. i think--was police and mrs. paine. mr. jenner. at the time that she examined the blanket? mr. mamantov. once for sure--i don't know what happened before that. mr. jenner. was she asked whether she had examined the blanket that day at any time prior to her examination of the blanket in the presence of mrs. paine and the police? mr. mamantov. i don't remember. mr. jenner. but you do recall that she did testify or relate as to the incident you now have in mind that mrs. paine was present and the police were present? mr. mamantov. on one occasion; yes. mr. jenner. and is that the only occasion she was examined about, that is, her having entered the garage once and then only in the presence of the police? mr. mamantov. this, i don't know for sure. mr. jenner. it might have been that she testified to having gone to the garage on two occasions that day. mr. mamantov. sir, i don't remember for sure. i rather wouldn't like, as you say, to interpret--i would be very happy to relate everything i know. if you don't remember, you don't. mr. jenner. may i emphasize over and over again, mr. mamantov, that you don't tell or say anything other than that which you recall in your mind took place around o'clock on the d. mr. mamantov. well, i don't remember. mr. jenner. so, let me impel you from any thought i have a desire for you to testify one way or the other. mr. mamantov. right. mr. jenner. because i don't--all i want you to do is to tell, as best you can, your recollection of what took place. mr. mamantov. no; i don't remember if she stated this or she didn't. mr. jenner. i do want to ask you this--you don't want to exclude by this testimony the possibility that she did, that is, that she testified or might have said at that time that she had entered the garage on an earlier occasion sometime during the day, that is, prior to the time the police arrived. mr. mamantov. no; i don't want to exclude it. mr. jenner. you just don't have enough recollection at the moment to testify one way or the other on that? mr. mamantov. that's correct. mr. jenner. now, i noticed that you did say that marina related the fact that she had seen the rifle in a disassembled condition? mr. mamantov. no; i didn't say so. i said, "elongated package--she saw an elongated package," but i don't recall the size of the package, the size of the package she testified it was. mr. jenner. i think you did testify earlier that marina remarked that she had seen the gun in sections? mr. mamantov. no, sir. mr. jenner. today? mr. mamantov. no, sir; you can read it back--i haven't. mr. jenner. off the record. (discussion between counsel jenner and the witness mamantov off the record.) mr. mamantov. no, sir; you asked me the shape of the package she saw, and i related to you an elongated package and she opened one corner and she saw the stock of the gun so much--that i said--there--so much--you asked me. mr. jenner. it's important, miss oliver, let's go back just so we will be certain of it and see if we can find it. (at this point at the request of counsel jenner the reporter referred to previous testimony of the witness mamantov and reread the following: ("no, put it this way. i remember conversations somewhere along the line that he didn't return to her room. i remember also when she got up she was wondering that he didn't eat breakfast, apparently coffee was poured or prepared either by him or by her, which, i don't remember, and he didn't eat breakfast and this was after he left, we'll say, a few minutes.") mr. jenner. when the question was put to her as to why she went to the garage to examine the package and what motivated her in that direction, what did she say? mr. mamantov. that, i don't remember. that is again coming to the point--i don't remember what time she saw--either she saw by herself or she saw during the time when police arrived. mr. jenner. but, in either event, whether she went there on her own prior to the time the police arrived and then again, if that's the way it was, when the police did arrive, what did she say when, as you have testified, she was asked why she went to the garage to examine the package, if she said anything? mr. mamantov. yes. when police arrived they asked her specific questions about particular blanket. mr. jenner. what questions? mr. mamantov. if the blanket was in the shape she saw today in relation to the shape she saw last time. she said, "no, it has different shape." mr. jenner. mr. mamantov, did the police ask her right off the bat whether the package in the garage, the blanket package in the garage, had a different configuration, or did they first question her, for example, as to whether her husband owned a gun and whether she was aware of the fact that he did own a gun and whether she was aware of the fact the gun was in or about the premises of the paine's--what was the sequence, as you recall? mr. mamantov. she was asked if she knew that the gun was at the premises of mrs. paine. mr. jenner. the questioning, then, assumed that there was a gun, is that correct? mr. mamantov. that's correct. she was asked whether this gun--when at the paines, whether she knew where the gun used to be, and then she said she hadn't seen gun since the gun--she saw last time--and this particular day when gun wasn't there. no; she never stated, and i don't think she was asked if she knew that the gun was there that particular morning. that, i don't know, but she was asked if she knew that the gun was with her belongings. mr. jenner. prior to november ? mr. mamantov. prior to november --that's correct. mr. jenner. and her response was in the affirmative? mr. mamantov. that's correct. mr. jenner. and your distinct recollection is that the blanket was not brought into the room at any time while you were there to exhibit to her? mr. mamantov. only physical item was gun. mr. jenner. your recollection is that it is true that the blanket was not brought into the room? mr. mamantov. that's correct, the only physical item was brought in, was the gun itself, sir. mr. jenner. and was the gun when brought in fully assembled? mr. mamantov. that's correct. mr. jenner. did it have the telescopic sight on it? mr. mamantov. yes. mr. jenner. and did it have a sling, a leather sling, do you know what i mean by a sling? mr. mamantov. yes; i know what you mean, but i don't remember right now. i think it did, but i wouldn't be for sure--i wouldn't be sure of the statement. now, i don't know if it is important to you or not, she also stated when she was questioned before--where he purchased the gun, and if it was a gun which he had in the soviet union. mr. jenner. and what was her response? mr. mamantov. her response was that it is possible that this is the gun which he had in the soviet union. she cannot say one way or the other if this is a different gun or which he had before. now, no person had a gun in the soviet union--i can say so much for sure and that's where i didn't like this. mr. jenner. no; you just interjected your own observation, that is, no person had a gun in the soviet union--that was an observation on your part, not what she said. mr. mamantov. no, no; that's my observation, but maybe not to be--not to put it into the record, but i think it is very important when she went back--when she said that the gun was brought in from the soviet union. mr. jenner. might have been? mr. mamantov. it might have been--so, she didn't know. the question was asked when did he purchase, when and where he purchased it and she said, "i don't know. he had always guns. he always played with guns even in the soviet union. he had the gun and i don't know which gun was this." and she was asked a question if she would recognize the gun--she was asked the color of the gun, if this was the same gun or resembled the gun which he had in the soviet union. she said, to her all guns are dark and black and that's all--so much she said about it. mr. jenner. before we get to the gun itself, i would like to ask you some more questions. mr. mamantov. before we get to the gun itself--all right. mr. jenner. i take it from your answers that she either said or implied that when they were in fort worth, when they were in new orleans, that he had the gun that she had in mind? mr. mamantov. this particular gun? mr. jenner. whatever gun she had in mind. mr. mamantov. she made statement this way: she said he always had guns, he always was interested in guns--this statement she made. mr. jenner. and he always had a weapon? mr. mamantov. that's correct, he always had a weapon. mr. jenner. did she say anything about a pistol as distinguished from a rifle? mr. mamantov. i don't remember the question and i don't remember a reply. mr. jenner. now, when she was asked whether she examined the package on that day, was she then asked to state what she did in the examination of the package and what she found--would you state as chronologically as you can? did she say, and this is a hypothetic, now, on my part--"i went into the garage, i looked for the blanket package, i saw the blanket package, i walked over to the blanket package, i stepped on it, or i lifted it up, or i opened it up"--was she questioned that closely? mr. mamantov. i don't remember, questions like you stated. mr. jenner. was she questioned about whether she looked for or whether there was any other weapon different from or in addition to the weapon in the blanket package? mr. mamantov. i don't remember the question--neither question. mr. jenner. is it fair to say that your best recollection is that she was not examined on that subject? mr. mamantov. i would say so--yes. mr. jenner. at any time during this questioning was she asked whether she had seen her husband handle the weapon, that is, that the weapon she saw with him in his possession--unwrapped? mr. mamantov. no, i don't remember, i don't think the question was asked. mr. jenner. was she asked whether she knew of her knowledge or information with respect to her husband's use of a rifle--whether it was a rifle, a pistol, or otherwise? mr. mamantov. yes; she stated that he liked to hunt. mr. jenner. well, was she asked whether he hunted in russia when he was in russia? mr. mamantov. oh, yes. she made statement that he also was hunting in russia and supposedly was hunting here. mr. jenner. she did say that her impression was that he hunted here in the united states? mr. mamantov. i'll put it this way--she said he was using his guns for hunting. she didn't say specifically which, but she said that he used to hunt in russia but she didn't say specifically he hunted here. mr. jenner. she did not say that he hunted in the united states? mr. mamantov. no. mr. jenner. from the evidence, they came over to this country in june . mr. mamantov. no--the question was asked if he hunted here or not and reply to why did he have the gun--because she said he had hunted in russia, he always liked guns, he always played with the gun. mr. jenner. was she questioned at all on the subject whether he had hunted with this rifle or any other gun in the united states? mr. mamantov. not in my presence. mr. jenner. was she questioned on the subject of whether she had seen him or was aware of the fact, if it be the fact, that he occasionally or on one or more occasions had the gun, say, out in the yard of their home in new orleans or out in the yard or courtyard in fort worth, sighting it and pulling the trigger--dry sighting; do you know what dry sighting is? mr. mamantov. right--no, she wasn't asked. mr. jenner. was she asked in your presence whether there was an incident in which there was an attempt on the life of general walker? mr. mamantov. no, sir. mr. jenner. nothing about that at all? mr. mamantov. nothing about that. mr. jenner. in other words, at the risk of boring you and the reporter, she was not questioned on this information when you were doing the translating or interpreting about any use of the rifle by him, dry sighting, hunting, or otherwise in the united states? mr. mamantov. no, not specifically, but this rifle--i'll put it this way--about her seeing him with a weapon. mr. jenner. any weapon? mr. mamantov. any weapon. mr. jenner. all right, now, have you told us everything you can recall about the questions and answers and interplay up to the time the rifle was brought into the room? is there anything else--don't be concerned about whether you think it is relative or not, anything that she said on this occasion is relevant to us. mr. mamantov. i understand and i am trying to recollect. no, i remember--i think i said everything i could remember. mr. jenner. you have now exhausted your recollection as to everything that was said at least in substance, and to the extent of the recall of each of the particulars up to this moment, that is to the moment when the gun was brought into the room? mr. mamantov. that's correct. mr. jenner. by the way, was there a court reporter present? mr. mamantov. if i remember right, the detective took down. mr. jenner. made notes? mr. mamantov. made some notes, and which were read to her. mr. jenner. eventually--that is, at the conclusion of the examination he summarized his notes in her presence? mr. mamantov. no, he read word by word, i translated back. he didn't write in shorthand, but he wrote it, i remember very well--mrs. paine tried to correct his english and, of course, minor mistakes. i probably wouldn't write the same way--you don't expect every policeman to write the same english, and which the question was whether "i" or "me"--that's the mistake it was. mr. jenner. now, when that summary was given by the officer in the presence of marina, did she affirm that it was at least in substance correct? mr. mamantov. she signed it. mr. jenner. did you seek to correct anything in the statement read to marina by the officer, that is, did you call attention to anything you thought had been left out or anything that had not been fairly stated? mr. mamantov. no, they read back to her, i translated back into russian and she agreed. only, there was mrs. paine--mrs. paine made a remark about the grammar. mr. jenner. now, i think--let's go ahead--the weapon is brought in. mr. mamantov. all right. mr. jenner. it is fully assembled? mr. mamantov. it is fully assembled. mr. jenner. it has a telescopic sight on it and the leather sling? mr. mamantov. captain fritz brought it in and was holding it in his two hands, with two or three fingers, not to touch gun around--in that position (indicating). mr. jenner. holding it up--holding it like that (indicating)? mr. mamantov. more or less--you see--inclined in that position. mr. jenner. holding it up horizontally or close to the horizontal? mr. mamantov. that's correct, and it was brought close enough to her to examine. she was specifically asked if this was the gun she had seen in the past in that blanket. she said, "i don't know. all guns to me are the same, are a dark brown or black." he asked her again--"this," which was to me very dark or black colored. he said, "is this what you see?" she said, "no, i don't know. i saw the gun--i saw a gun;" she said again, "all guns are the same to me." then they asked her about a sight on the gun. mr. jenner. s-i-g-h-t [spelling]? mr. mamantov. yes; a telescope--she said, "no; i never have seen gun like that in his possession," and she referred back again to the soviet union. mr. jenner. what did she say to you--is this a conclusion on your part that she referred back to the soviet union? mr. mamantov. no--no--she said this way. mr. jenner. it isn't a conclusion, if you put the words in her mouth, so you can go ahead. mr. mamantov. no, she said the gun which he had in the soviet union, she didn't know how to say--she said, "this thing." mr. jenner. the telescopic sight? mr. mamantov. the telescopic sight--she pointed to it with her finger. mr. jenner. excuse me, did she say that the rifle or weapon, whatever it was he had in the soviet union--her recollection was it did not have a telescopic sight on it? mr. mamantov. that's correct. she was asked if she had seen this part of the gun which he had in the garage in the blanket--this she said again--she said, "no; i have only seen one part of the gun, which was the end of the gun"--which part they asked her--i think i am calling it---- mr. jenner. the stock? mr. mamantov. she pointed to the stock--correct--and then she was asked about the gun again and she said, "dark brown-black." mr. jenner. still referring to the stock? mr. mamantov. still referring to the stock, and then they asked her for a couple more questions, if she saw this particular gun in his possession. she insisted that to her all guns are the same and she couldn't distinguish this gun from any other gun that he had in the past. mr. jenner. in other words, it is your recollection that they questioned her very closely in an effort to elicit from her, if it weren't a fact that the weapon they were showing her was the weapon she had seen, and her responses consistently were--they were, no matter how close or vigorous the examination, that all guns are alike to her, that the only thing she ever saw was the stock of the gun in the blanket? mr. mamantov. that's correct. mr. jenner. and her recollection was it was dark brown, and that's all she thought, to fairly summarize? mr. mamantov. that's correct. they asked her again, "is this the color you saw?" she said "yes--yes, it reminds me of the same color." they particularly questioned her fairly close, if this was the same gun which belonged to him and she only insisted she saw the stock of the gun and hasn't seen the whole gun. mr. jenner. all right, go ahead. mr. mamantov. and they asked her, i think they came back again and asked her if she has seen him carrying something. mr. jenner. carrying something? mr. mamantov. carrying something, and she said, "no," she didn't see him leaving, so she didn't know if he was carrying something. mr. jenner. you mean they came back and asked her whether, when he left that morning he was carrying anything? mr. mamantov. that's correct. mr. jenner. and her response was? mr. mamantov. she didn't see him leaving or walking out of the house, or whatever he was taking--means of transportation. mr. jenner. she didn't see him leave, so she doesn't know whether he had anything with him or not, is that a fair statement? mr. mamantov. that's correct. mr. jenner. is that a fair statement of her statements? mr. mamantov. that's exactly right. mr. jenner. did they question her as to the details of his coming to irving, tex., the night before, and what did he bring with him, if anything, and what did he say as to why he was returning on thursday night, whereas, he usually came on weekends, as on a friday, did they go through that previous evening with her in detail and from point to point so that they could exhaust the movements of lee oswald that previous evening? mr. mamantov. no; if i remember right, they didn't question her to the extent of his arrival--well, i don't remember. mr. jenner. they concentrated on his presence the following morning and what occurred from the time she awakened until the time he left? mr. mamantov. to me as a layman, the whole talk was around him having the gun, and "this is the gun he used." mr. jenner. your best recollection, you recall, is that there was no questioning of her with respect to movements of this man the previous evening? mr. mamantov. no, sir; i don't remember. mr. jenner. oh, any questions as to why he came home on thursday rather than on friday as usual? mr. mamantov. no, sir; i don't remember. mr. jenner. did they go into any questions with respect to the acquaintances of the oswalds with people here in dallas or in irving or in fort worth or in new orleans? mr. mamantov. at that particular time? mr. jenner. yes. mr. mamantov. no, sir. mr. jenner. over what period of time did this examination take place? what was its duration? mr. mamantov. roughly, i would say about - / to hours. you see, mrs. paine also testified, she was present so they took two statements--from both of them. mr. jenner. they took mrs. paine's and then they took marina's? mr. mamantov. first marina's and then mrs. paine's. mr. jenner. was mrs. paine's statement taken in marina's presence? mr. mamantov. yes. mr. jenner. and marina's statement was taken in mrs. paine's presence? mr. mamantov. that's right. mr. jenner. did you interpret from english into russian the statements made by mrs. paine that is, did you translate mrs. paine's statement, as she made it and the questions put to mrs. paine, for the benefit of marina, so that she would understand the questions to mrs. paine and mrs. paine's responses? mr. mamantov. no, sir; the statement was not translated into russian. mr. jenner. and you can see why that is important to me, as to whether marina would take exception to anything mrs. paine said? mr. mamantov. right. now, we were waiting about - / or hours altogether for the typist to type that. mr. jenner. it was the taking of the statement, the transcribing of the statement, the reading of the statement to marina and mrs. paine, and then have the witnesses read the statements or listen to them and then sign them. mr. mamantov. that's correct. mr. jenner. all of this took about hours? mr. mamantov. that's correct. mr. jenner. did mrs. paine speak to marina in russian while you were present? mr. mamantov. right, yes, she did. mrs. paine spoke in russian to marina--yes, she did. mr. jenner. any statements made by mrs. paine in russian to marina, were they pertinent to the subject matters about which you have testified? mr. mamantov. no; i don't think so. i don't remember--personal conversation more or less about the child who was present. mr. jenner. the conversations between mrs. paine and marina in russian, were they conversations related to personal matters--the children? mr. mamantov. the children; and only on one occasion i remember was to her protection--marina's protection. mr. jenner. and what was that? mr. mamantov. "what are they going to do with me now?" mr. jenner. who made that statement? mr. mamantov. marina asked of mrs. paine. mr. jenner. "what are they going to do with me now?" mr. mamantov. what are they going to do with me now?" mr. jenner. and what did mrs. paine say? mr. mamantov. well, then, she asked--are they going to send her back to the soviet union, and mrs. paine said, "i don't know," and then she looked at me and i said, "i don't know either. if you are innocent, then you will be innocent." i couldn't say one way or the other, and i didn't want to go into conversation. mr. jenner. did you say to marina that, "if you are innocent--then you are innocent"--did you mean to imply by that that she would not be deported in that event? mr. mamantov. right; and then i expressed hope that nothing would happen to her. mr. jenner. now, have you now told us everything you can recall to the best of your recollection that was said? mr. mamantov. in relation to marina or to both of them? mr. jenner. first, in relation to marina--during the course of that -hour meeting or session at the dallas city police station. mr. mamantov. i think i have told you everything i remember. mr. jenner. in an effort to perhaps refresh your recollection, but without suggestion that these things actually occurred, was anything asked her about her relations with her husband, lee oswald, whether they got along well, didn't get along well, whether they had any problems in that connection? mr. mamantov. i don't think it was brought up at that particular time. mr. jenner. you have an especial command of the russian language, you teach russian? mr. mamantov. that's correct. mr. jenner. and have taught russian? mr. mamantov. that's correct. mr. jenner. you have heard mrs. paine speak russian? mr. mamantov. yes. mr. jenner. would you please state for the record the extent of mrs. paine's command of the russian language? mr. mamantov. say for--i can give only comparison for american person and for russian person. i say for an american person--fair to good for knowledge of the language, for command of language--very poor. mr. jenner. is that the only occasion when you interpreted or translated for marina? mr. mamantov. in person? in her presence? mr. jenner. yes. mr. mamantov. that's the only occasion. mr. jenner. did you see marina at any time after this incident, this questioning? mr. mamantov. intentionally or unintentionally? mr. jenner. well, i think, either way. mr. mamantov. either way--yes, sir--i once on one saturday, my mother-in-law and i went to sears to ross avenue store. mr. jenner. was this some time afterward? mr. mamantov. shortly afterward. mr. jenner. how shortly--the next day? mr. mamantov. oh, no--the next day after martin, i guess, came into the picture. mr. jenner. did you have occasion to speak with her then? mr. mamantov. my mother-in-law went into the main entrance and i opened the door, and if i remember right, i was holding the door for somebody else to pass by and mother-in-law got ahead. i closed the door and started to walk off and catch up and i heard somebody calling, like in my conscious, calling, "mr. mamantov," in russian and in a very little whisper, and i was walking a couple of steps further and i heard it again, "mr. mamantov," again in russian and i turned around and here was a young lady, two children, and about three or four young men around, so in my mind it occurred--this is marina, but i was so surprised and she didn't look like she looked at the police station. her hair became dark and i called out "netasha," and she called me in russian and said, "no, this is marina." so, i introduced myself immediately to the gentlemen with her, saying i was translating for her at the police station and my name is so and so. in the meantime mother-in-law turned around and started to look for me and i told her to pass by, don't look, and try to get away, and, i said, "how are you doing?" she said, "now is becoming quieter. i am very tired." that is the extent of our conversation, so we went into basement of sears store and when we finished our business, we were going up again--excuse me--by myself. mother-in-law was waiting for me somewhere--i had to go and check on my credit, so after going into the sears' office, coming back on the escalator, here was the group again, and i tried to be polite and let her and her escort get on the escalator, and i stepped on and i told to one, who later i found out was martin, and i didn't know at that time who was martin, and i told him, i said, "if she needs help in translating the language, please call on me." and so and so, and that's the time i saw her. mr. jenner. is that the last time you have seen her? mr. mamantov. that's correct. mr. jenner. do you know a gentleman by the name of george de mohrenschildt? mr. mamantov. that's correct. mr. jenner. you do--when did you first meet him? mr. mamantov. i don't remember exactly, but let me go back--are you through with mrs. paine and mrs. oswald? mr. jenner. i'm through with her only if you have told us everything about this particular occasion. mr. mamantov. one occasion they asked mrs. paine, and who was also present and gave us testimony, they asked her if she knew if he had a gun. mr. jenner. if mrs. paine knew? mr. mamantov. that's correct--it's important to you to know this, please? mr. jenner. yes; it is. mr. mamantov. and she said, "no, she didn't." why didn't she know that marina had her belongings in her garage, and she said, "yes, i knew," and "how didn't you know that she had a gun," and she said, "because i didn't go through her belongings. i mean, it isn't my business to check on what she had there." now, they asked her also, knowing that she is a--what is the religious denomination in pennsylvania? mr. jenner. quaker. mr. mamantov. quaker. would you allow her to have the gun, knowing that you are quaker? she said again, "it belongs to her, and it isn't for me to say," and this is the extent i remember statements on mrs. paine's part. mr. jenner. she wasn't asked either about what had occurred the previous evening; is that correct? mr. mamantov. i don't remember. mr. jenner. all right. mr. mamantov. you told me to say only what i know--i know this. mr. jenner. i want you to state only what you recall, sir. mr. mamantov. i don't remember--this is overlapping two occasions--whether that was that evening, if you will show me the statement that was written, i will elaborate in details on it. mr. jenner. off the record. (discussion between counsel jenner and the witness, mamantov, off the record.) mr. jenner. back on the record. are you acquainted with a man by the name of george de mohrenschildt? mr. mamantov. yes, sir. mr. jenner. when did you first become acquainted with him? mr. mamantov. if i remember right, in the early part of . mr. jenner. you were then a resident of dallas? mr. mamantov. that's correct. mr. jenner. and will you describe george de mohrenschildt as to his physical characteristics first? mr. mamantov. a tall, handsome man, well built, very talkative and loud in society, likes to tell one company jokes--one sex jokes. mr. jenner. he's a hail fellow, well-met type? mr. mamantov. right. mr. jenner. garrulous, talkative? mr. mamantov. very. mr. jenner. expansive type? mr. mamantov. that's correct. mr. jenner. what color is his hair? mr. mamantov. brunette with quite a few grey hairs at that time when i met him, and appealed to ladies and used to take advantage of that. mr. jenner. sort of a ladies' man? mr. mamantov. sort of a ladies' man, and at that time was married, twice for sure, and maybe more, and shortly after that had a--a divorce was pending. mr. jenner. did you become acquainted with his then wife? mr. mamantov. no, sir; i am acquainted of his girl friend of that general area, who is now his wife. mr. jenner. and what was her name? mr. mamantov. i don't remember---- mr. jenner. was she a native born american? mr. mamantov. zhana, i think, probably in english would be jane, and to spell zhana in english translation is z-h-a-n-a [spelling]. this was the way she was called in the russian society. mr. jenner. and translation of that would be jane in english, you think? mr. mamantov. i would say so--also of russian. mr. jenner. i was about to ask you--she was of russian derivation? mr. mamantov. that's correct. mr. jenner. she was born in russia? mr. mamantov. that, i don't know--i don't know her, as well as i know george. mr. jenner. she was not an american born? mr. mamantov. i don't think so, but i don't know for sure. i'll put it this way. she speaks too good russian to be an american born. mr. jenner. what about de mohrenschildt in that respect? mr. mamantov. he speaks perfect russian. mr. jenner. is he a native-born american? mr. mamantov. no, sir; i don't think so, because he was educated in leige, belgium--well, he finished here--i know for sure if we meet again, i can bring you more details from our geological directories, all this information, and if i remember right, shortly we met him and zhana together and we had service in our church, which was very small--actually was just a regular residence. mr. jenner. you told us earlier in the course of our visiting that you participated in an effort to organize a church here in dallas? mr. mamantov. in dallas. mr. jenner. in which you anticipated people of russian derivation would be interested? mr. mamantov. that's correct. mr. jenner. and did that church have a name? mr. mamantov. saint nicholas eastern orthodox church. mr. jenner. eastern orthodox church? mr. mamantov. that's correct, and there i saw him and her, i'm talking about zhana, very improperly dressed for a church service. if i remember right, either both of them or she came in shorts toward the end of the service, which shocked all my family. i mean--just to describe a man this way---- mr. jenner. you mean this is part of his personality? mr. mamantov. right; and every place we met him he was talking to ladies elder than he, in a way normally a well brought up person wouldn't do it. mr. jenner. well, what i am trying to have you do is tell us of your acquaintance with george de mohrenschildt, and avoiding speculation to the extent you can--and the part he played in your life. i am getting at the russian emigre group here in dallas. mr. mamantov. right. mr. jenner. excuse me, had you known him prior to the time you met him, as you have described? mr. mamantov. no--no, no; i haven't. mr. jenner. or known of him? mr. mamantov. no; the first time i met him through mr. bouhe, and this was a first acquaintance and just like i said, the only places--it was in somebody's house and parties, we usually wouldn't stay too long because of him. we just have some reason--we had a tendency to avoid this person as much as possible. mr. jenner. you acquired a normal or natural aversion to or dislike of george de mohrenschildt? mr. mamantov. that's correct. mr. jenner. from what he did and what you thought he represented? mr. mamantov. that's correct, because being of the same nationality, i thought he was hurting all of our emigre here in dallas. mr. jenner. do you know whether marina or lee oswald knew the de mohrenschildts? mr. mamantov. i know that marina related the conversations to my mother-in-law as "our best friends in dallas," referring to both of the de mohrenschildts. mr. jenner. you are now stating that your mother-in-law told you that marina said to her, "these were their best friends in dallas"? mr. mamantov. that's correct. mr. jenner. we both appreciate that that is pure hearsay, but that remark was made to you? mr. mamantov. i mean, it was made in a family--after my conversation between my mother-in-law and marina. mr. jenner. and there was yourself--and anybody else present---- mr. mamantov. my wife was present. mr. jenner. when your mother-in-law made that statement in your presence? mr. mamantov. yes; that's correct. mr. jenner. but marina was not present at that time? mr. mamantov. no, no; our family haven't seen marina in our lives. mother-in-law never have seen marina--was except at a distance at sears store, except that time. mr. jenner. your information is that there never was any direct contact between your mother-in-law and marina except on the telephone? mr. mamantov. on telephone. mr. jenner. and, was that by way of the telephone? mr. mamantov. that's correct. mr. jenner. and you were not present, in the presence of your mother-in-law, when your mother-in-law had that conversation with marina? mr. mamantov. no, sir; i was at work. you see, she lived--if i can take your time, i can tell you how it happened, if it is important i can. i don't want to take your time. mr. jenner. i want to avoid hearsay, and that's why i am going a little carefully at this moment because, on this trip we plan to talk with your mother-in-law and take her testimony directly, just not hearsay. mr. mamantov. that's what i thought, but the reason she talked was because marina was at paine's house and paine went to san antonio and asked my mother-in-law to check on marina because marina was pregnant at that time--you see the connection? mr. jenner. no; to check on marina, that she had any suspicion of her? mr. mamantov. no, no; but in case she needs help, but just in the way of help, and this way the whole conversation came up. now, my mother-in-law--i asked mr. peterson who called me on friday if my mother-in-law would be called or is called, i will come with her because she needs a translator. mr. jenner. you may bring her. mr. mamantov. if i may bring her with me because everything she knows we know in the family, and she needs a translator, and i translated for her when she was questioned by fbi. she doesn't speak enough english to answer your questions. mr. jenner. oh, is that so? mr. mamantov. she will understand what you are talking about but--as far as that--she is , and an elderly lady and she can be quite nervous by being by herself and so on. mr. jenner. all right, i will attempt my best to put her at ease, which i have tried to do with you. mr. mamantov. oh, i am at ease as much as i can be. i'm trying to be, because the reasons i hesitate to say--"yes, i remember." i don't remember in some cases, or maybe i remember, like when i translated with mr. martin over here, because in my mind it is very hard to separate right now without going back and reading the report. mr. jenner. are you acquainted with a couple, igor and natalie voshinin? mr. mamantov. that's correct. mr. jenner. they are friends of yours? mr. mamantov. that's correct; they are also friends of the de mohrenschildts. mr. jenner. and have you had conversations with the voshinins with respect to mr. de mohrenschildt? mr. mamantov. yes; and on quite a few occasions. mr. jenner. during any of those conversations was any reference made to a trip that de mohrenschildt made or might have made to mexico city, mexico? mr. mamantov. that's right. mr. jenner. when was that trip supposed to have taken place? mr. mamantov. i don't remember if it was in or . i don't know. mrs. voshinin can tell you exactly the time. mr. jenner. all right, we intend to interrogate them as well. we will leave it to them. mr. mamantov. right, but i heard from her, i mean, her statement to us was that de mohrenschildt went to mexico and met with the soviet representatives and mikoyan---- mr. jenner. that's spelled m-i-k-o-y-a-n [spelling]? mr. mamantov. yes--who was visiting at that time in mexico. this, actually, if you will let me elaborate a little bit more on this--this mainly was my opinion of his politics, i mean, i had suspicioned, but this was actually what led me to believe or doubt his loyalty. mr. jenner. now, you are speaking of de mohrenschildt? mr. mamantov. yes, sir; de mohrenschildt. mr. jenner. tell us your contacts with de mohrenschildt; do they extend beyond what you have stated that he participated in the effort to organize the eastern orthodox church? mr. mamantov. no, no; he did not participate. mr. jenner. he did not? mr. mamantov. he did not--he never was interested in church life, but i met him through that group, and mr. bouhe, who are the most active participants in organizing the church. mr. jenner. would you please tell us what other russian emigres of this group in dallas participated in the effort to organize the church about which you have testified--yourself, bouhe---- mr. mamantov. no; i joined. this was done already by other people. we came in --this already was going for a couple of years. mr. jenner. who are reasonably regular attendants or at least persons interested? mr. mamantov. mr. bouhe---- mr. jenner. bouhe, yourself, your wife? mr. mamantov. my wife not so much--she is a catholic. mr. jenner. i see. mr. mamantov. but she attended, and, of course, she did everything for the sake of her children who are greek orthodox, and then mrs.--oh, gosh, what is her name--mrs. zinzade, z-i-n-z-a-d-e [spelling]. her first name is helen and his name is, i think, george, but i can look in the telephone book later on. mr. jenner. that's all right. are all these people generally russian intellectuals? mr. mamantov. no. mr. jenner. now, i call you an intellectual. mr. mamantov. right. mr. jenner. i meant to imply that. mr. mamantov. put it this way--all of them have lower educational level than i do, except de mohrenschildt. mr. jenner. de mohrenschildt has a higher education, as you do? mr. mamantov. right. mr. jenner. most of these other people have the qualifications or are interested in what? mr. mamantov. de mohrenschildt has the same or a little bit low---- mr. jenner. as yours? mr. mamantov. as mine. we are both geologists and might be called miners, and the voshinins are the same. mr. jenner. who else? mr. mamantov. grigor'ev--this was the benefactor of that church. that's called grigor'ev, he was the benefactor of that church. voshinin, bouhe, all of us were on the same educational level. the rest of them were below high-school education, especially like in mr. bouhe's case, he is an accountant, and a latvian--mrs. grolle, g-r-o-l-l-e [spelling], and the first name is emma. now, who else was there--now, an estonian couple who are very active--hartens, h-a-r-t-en-s [spelling], and his first name, i don't remember, but if you need it exactly, we take the telephone book--all of these names are in the telephone book. this group actually was very active in organizing. mr. jenner. meller, m-e-l-l-e-r [spelling]? mr. mamantov. yes; and mrs. meller--right, and the closest relationship is between her and mr. bouhe. mr. jenner. you mean there's a close relation between mrs. meller and mr. bouhe, they are close friends. mr. mamantov. yes; closest of all this group because these people actually was the nucleous of those church workers or financial supporters. i was a worker for a while, but i didn't contribute money because we just came to dallas and we didn't have enough to contribute, but mr. grigor'ev and mr. bouhe were the main financial supporters and through them, through all this group, i met mr. de mohrenschildt the first time. mr. jenner. then, i'll ask you this general question--would you please state all you know about george de mohrenschildt, and you are free, in making the statement, to give your impressions and take it as chronologically as you can, and i should say to you that this testimony is privileged. you are not subject, unless you have an evil heart and evil intent, to any litigation, that is, slander, libel, or otherwise. mr. mamantov. no; only i know about the man, like i told you, that we were being closer acquainted with him and his present wife. mr. jenner. yes, sir. mr. mamantov. because of his characteristics, of his frivolous life, his behavior in the presence of ladies--to us suspicious political trips supposedly related to his business and this is the extent i can say of him. mr. jenner. have you told us everything you said to the fbi when you called them on the d of november before you were contacted by the dallas office? mr. mamantov. i haven't told them anything except i know of the assassin and if i can be of service i would like to relate the knowledge i have. mr. jenner. now, was there an occasion on which your mother-in-law, mrs. gravitis made some comment or gave an opinion to you, her opinion as to lee oswald with particular reference to his possible political leanings, and does that serve to refresh your recollection enough--i don't want to suggest the conversation to you. mr. mamantov. in relation to what? mr. jenner. in relation to oswald, whether he was a communist or what his political leanings were in her opinion? mr. mamantov. well, on many occasions that came up, the conversation, after her conversations with mrs. paine, and after hearing through mrs. paine and my mother-in-law what he was saying and how he was opposed to our way of life and knowing that he came from that country, she and i stated that he is a communist--we didn't hesitate. mr. jenner. that was based upon the reports to you from your mother-in-law as to what mrs. paine might have or did say to her and from, i gather, your general knowledge at that time that he had gone from this country to russia? mr. mamantov. that's correct. mr. jenner. and had returned with marina as his wife? mr. mamantov. that's correct, and not only through mrs. paine, because after we found out--many people of russian descent were somehow acquainted with lee oswald and marina, so we heard later from different sources of him and his political opinions. mr. jenner. now, do i correctly interpret your testimony that because there is a russian emigre group here that is lively and interested in each other, that they took an interest, if for no other reason, that they took an interest in marina and to an extent, lee oswald, to expand her acquaintance in the dallas-irving-fort worth area and make them comfortable to the extent that you people out of the kindness of your heart could do so? i don't want to describe it incorrectly--give me your reaction to that. mr. mamantov. my reaction--i never was asked to help them, never was approached by them or people who tried to help them. mr. jenner. what was your impression, that people were trying to help them? mr. mamantov. people who tried to help them, i told them on many occasions they shouldn't do it. mr. jenner. what do you mean? mr. mamantov. well, i told mrs. paine--mrs. paine was an interested person. mr. jenner. why? mr. mamantov. because, in my opinion, oswald was a communist and was sent here with certain purpose, whether to kill or what to do, but he had an assignment and because my belief was and still is, and which is strengthened due to the d assassination. mr. jenner. and these views and opinions of yours are not based on any direct knowledge on your part of lee harvey oswald, that is, any direct contact during the course of events up to november , that is, you don't point to any specific knowledge on your part, but it is a realization---- mr. mamantov. it is a realization of what the people told me of his political viewpoints, their home being in the soviet union and supposedly being an undesirable person, but i have again past cases in my life where exactly what he did, other people, they are doing it, and i am sure you have heard many questions on tv and those questions were asked before. mr. jenner. and i take it, mr. mamantov, that you regard yourself, and that you are a loyal and dedicated, naturalized american. mr. mamantov. yes; i am. mr. jenner. and you are proud and concerned about your standing in that respect? mr. mamantov. yes, sir; but i'm not a member of the john birch society, i am not a member of any organization except my professional and local republican party. mr. jenner. at any time prior to november , were you aware of or has there come to your attention any information or statement attributed to oswald, that to you indicated that he had animosity or opposition to president john f. kennedy as an individual, as i say, prior to november ? mr. mamantov. yes; i understand--no, sir. mr. jenner. or any animosity or opposition to john f. kennedy in his capacity as president of the united states? mr. mamantov. no, sir; only the information was relayed to me that he was opposed to the government of the united states, without mentioning the president or any other name. mr. jenner. and you have no information on which you personally can rely of your personal knowledge, indicating that oswald was a communist? mr. mamantov. you mean if i have proof--physical proof? mr. jenner. yes. mr. mamantov. no, sir. mr. jenner. when did you meet george bouhe? mr. mamantov. it is september or, i mean, late part of september or early part of october , when i still was by myself in dallas. i heard of him being from estonia, which was mistaken and happened to be a russian. so i called him up and we met in the restaurant. he came to my house--he came to my room where i rented. i forgot the number-- , if i remember right, milton street, and invited me to eat with him out in the restaurant by name europa, and there we ate and then somehow we went back, you know, i discovered he is white russian and i am white russian and he talked extensively about mrs. meller. mr. jenner. me-l-l-e-r [spelling]? mr. mamantov. mrs. meller--right. mr. jenner. is she a white russian? mr. mamantov. no; she is--she came the same way like mrs. ford came from--was brought by germans into germany and came to the states. mr. jenner. off the record a moment, please. (discussion between counsel jenner and the witness mamantov off the record.) mr. jenner. on the record, now. are you acquainted with what lee oswald's reputation was in the community in which he resided as to his personality? now, in this question i seek to distinguish from his political beliefs. what kind of person was he--was he quiet, retiring, avoiding friends, did he have any reputation toward inclination to violence, or did he have a reputation in that connection, and if so, are you acquainted with his reputation in the community? mr. mamantov. i'll put it this way--the people who wanted to help marina didn't want to help oswald because he was holding back--i mean--people tried to start conversations, always he went into political questions and, of course, immediately he disagreed. mr. jenner. did he have a reputation for being unpleasant, pleasant, was he sociable in the sense that he was at ease among other people, did he seek their company? i'm asking now, only reputation, sir. mr. mamantov. again, i can say only in the houses he has been--for one reason or another he was disliked--i'll put it this way. mr. jenner. all right--by the russian emigre group as a whole? mr. mamantov. that's correct. mr. jenner. they had a low opinion of his reputation in the community, in that community of people--mr. mamantov? mr. mamantov. that's right. mr. jenner. it was one of reservation, dislike--that they did not think well of his personality? mr. mamantov. that's correct, he was holding back and he didn't try to make friends or he didn't try, was what i heard--he tried to keep marina away from those people and appeared a couple of times with her in other russian houses, but not very willingly and was holding back. mr. jenner. he was holding back? mr. mamantov. right. mr. jenner. do you recall anything else with respect to his reputation in the russian community area? i'm not seeking specific instances, but only general reputation, the reaction of the russian community group toward lee harvey oswald before november ? mr. mamantov. yes; once he beat up marina. mr. jenner. now, that's a specific instance, and therefore is not reputation. may i explain to you that reputation in a community is what the whole body of the community feels after knowing a person for a while. it is a reaction gained by people in the community from many instances. mr. mamantov. not from the one instance. mr. jenner. but, not from one--one instance is hearsay to us. mr. mamantov. well--only, i know that he was undesirable--and after people met him a few times, or, we say, met even once in their own houses, he was undesirable to those people. mr. jenner. was he regarded as a difficult person? mr. mamantov. that's correct. mr. jenner. i think you have said this, but may i ask you--your mother-in-law, mrs. gravitis, has served as a tutor for mrs. paine? mr. mamantov. i mean--she get the job through me. mr. jenner. yes; of course. mr. mamantov. that put her to work with mrs. paine. you see, what happened, mrs. paine was calling me at the office and asked to teach--and i told her i'm not interested to teach individual students, and i suggested my mother-in-law, and this way we made arrangement for my mother-in-law to teach her russian. mr. jenner. are you acquainted with the reputation in the russian community of marina oswald, and i'm going to ask you several subdivisions--first, as to her personality. mr. mamantov. from what i heard, she was a very pleasant young girl, was quite open in her discussions, in her conversations. my conclusion was that she is very pleasant to be around. mr. jenner. are you acquainted with her reputation in the russian community for truth and veracity? mr. mamantov. for whom? mr. jenner. as to her truth and veracity, that is, did she have a reputation with respect to whether she was or was not a truthful person? mr. mamantov. right, i see what you mean. mr. jenner. a person upon whose statements one might rely? mr. mamantov. i don't know--as a community. i do know in our family discussion. mr. jenner. well, i'll take that part of the community. mr. mamantov. all right. we didn't accuse her one way or another way, but we couldn't understand how she could come out of the soviet union so easily and also, statements she made to my mother-in-law about him living in a small apartment, which we still have relatives and, i mean distant relatives, and we know that they cannot live in a comfortable apartment. for this reason, we have opinion, or, we wouldn't trust her on the first-hand information. mr. jenner. did she have a reputation in the russian community with respect to whether or not she was a member of the communist party? now, that is a political question. mr. mamantov. now, she told my mother-in-law---- mr. jenner. now, please, did she have a reputation? mr. mamantov. wait just a second---- mr. jenner. a reputation, whether she was or was not--what did the russian community as a whole, now, not just your mother-in-law? mr. mamantov. all right--you want the communist party of the united states or communist party of the soviet union? mr. jenner. all right, i'll take both of them--i'll take the communist party of the soviet union first. mr. mamantov. everybody knew that she was a member of the communistic youth organization--she didn't even hide this, but i never have heard of somebody implying that she would be a member of the communist party of the united states, so as community, i don't think everybody considered her as well tied to the communist party as the community did oswald himself. mr. jenner. what was the general reputation, if any, of marina in the russian community on the subject of whether she had any fixed political views and might actively support those views here in the united states? mr. mamantov. no; i don't know this--i mean--i don't have any opinion. i haven't heard anything--i know that she didn't--she avoided political discussions, i'll put it this way. mr. jenner. she did? mr. mamantov. she did avoid political discussions. mr. jenner. i take it from your testimony, you are acquainted with the fords? mr. mamantov. that's correct. mr. jenner. i think you said mr. bouhe was a bachelor? mr. mamantov. that's correct. he is a bachelor now--he was married--he's divorced. mr. jenner. he's a grass widower? mr. mamantov. right, but he was a very short time widower--he could be married. mr. jenner. were you and your family aware of bouhe's efforts, if they were efforts, to collect clothing and otherwise be helpful to the oswalds? mr. mamantov. that's correct. mr. jenner. you were aware of that? mr. mamantov. right. mr. jenner. and was that in your opinion a good faith, charitable impulse on his part? mr. mamantov. no, sir. mr. jenner. you think it might have been ulterior? mr. mamantov. we objected immediately when we heard about this. we objected to every person who took marina in their own house, in trying to collect money and clothing, and this supposedly happened after her husband beat her up. mr. jenner. when there went through the russian community a report that lee oswald had inflicted physical violence on marina, then the community objected to assistance being afforded the oswalds? mr. mamantov. i don't know--i think they were especially helping her, after they left fort worth, and they had domestic disagreements. supposedly, she was attacked by him--then the russian community here in dallas tried to help her by taking her into the houses or collecting money and collecting clothing and stuff like that, so i opposed this more and more violently. mr. jenner. but you do know that the russian community, as such, of which mr. bouhe was a member, was seeking to assist her? mr. mamantov. correct. mr. jenner. by collecting clothing? mr. mamantov. right. mr. jenner. gathering money and taking her into their homes on occasions? mr. mamantov. that's right--assigning for certain families to keep for a couple of weeks or a week. mr. jenner. that included mrs. meller? mr. mamantov. that included mrs. meller, fords, and he tried to get this person---- mr. jenner. when you say "he" you mean mr. bouhe? mr. mamantov. mr. bouhe. mr. jenner. he tried to place her with whom--mrs. grolle? mr. mamantov. yes; she's an elderly person and lives by herself and had a few rooms for rent and as far as i know, she didn't take her into her home. mr. jenner. well, we have no information that she did. mr. mamantov. as far as i know, i don't think that she did, but i don't think that she did, but mellers and the fords took her for a week or for weeks. mr. jenner. have you ever heard of a mrs. elena hall? mr. mamantov. elena hall--how do you spell it? mr. jenner. h-a-l-l [spelling], e-l-e-n-a [spelling]. mr. mamantov. no; the first name--elena hall? mr. jenner. yes. mr. mamantov. no, sir; you see, we have a secretary, helene, h-e-l-e-n-e [spelling] hall, which couldn't be that person. mr. jenner. no, that's a different person. mr. mamantov. yes. mr. jenner. paul gregory or peter gregory? mr. mamantov. yes, sir; father, i think, is peter. mr. jenner. you mean one is the father and one is son? mr. mamantov. one is father's name and one is son's name--that's correct, but his father is not living. do you know how russians call your name--if i would refer to you, it is your name first and your father's name second, instead of saying mr. so and so, so that's how it appears. mr. jenner. what do they say in case--since my name and my father's name are the same? mr. mamantov. the same--it would be, if you are, for instance, oswald, it would be oswald oswald, each ending implies you are a son of oswald. mr. jenner. you have already mentioned volkmar schmidt. mr. mamantov. right. mr. jenner. he was a roommate or lived with mr. glover. mr. mamantov. and a close friend of dick pierce. mr. jenner. p-i-e-r-c-e [spelling]? mr. mamantov. also a geologist. mr. jenner. or, p-e-a-r-c-e [spelling]? mr. mamantov. no, p-i-e-r-c-e [spelling]. mr. jenner. what was his first name? mr. mamantov. richard, r-i-c-h-a-r-d [spelling]. mr. jenner. is mr. norman fredricksen a student? mr. mamantov. i was teaching scientific russian for the socony mobil research lab in duncanville, and this student joined. actually, the class was carried out first, well, first semester and mr. fredricksen was hired by socony mobil and joined the class. mr. jenner. how old a man is he? mr. mamantov. oh, i would guess around plus. mr. jenner. he is a young man? mr. mamantov. yes; he came to--he served in the army. mr. jenner. do you--the united states army? mr. mamantov. united states army, was in germany, and studied russian in heidelberg. when he came back, he did graduate work after the army. he did graduate work at the university of pennsylvania and had studied russian, so when he came to my class he had a very good background of the russian language already. mr. jenner. now, there was an occasion, was there not, in which this student, norman fredricksen, said something to you about oswald; isn't that correct? mr. mamantov. may i point out, i lost him for a while after i finished that semester, that interrupted russian, and this was in the spring of , and if i am right, about a semester or two semesters later, he and volkmar schmidt came to my home and asked me to conduct private lessons for both of them. mr. jenner. had you also been tutoring volkmar schmidt? mr. mamantov. they came--right now, they came to my house. not before--the first time i met volkmar schmidt was when fredricksen and volkmar schmidt came to my home, and i said, "all right, i'll take both of you," and i talked to fredricksen, and volkmar schmidt was described as knowing the same amount of the russian language, and i found out he didn't know half as much as fredricksen did and i offered to split and i would continue to teach for the same amount of money fredricksen, and volkmar schmidt would take from my mother-in-law, who had time and willingness to teach individual students, so we split--i was tutoring fredricksen and she was teaching schmidt. mr. jenner. and did there come this occasion when fredricksen spoke to you about the oswalds one night? mr. mamantov. that's right, and fredricksen and his wife came to visit with us. mr. jenner. your home? mr. mamantov. that's correct, and this was, i would say, sometime--march, april, might be of , and so they told us yesterday or day before yesterday that they went to a very interesting party where the person present just came in from the soviet union and his wife, and the party was held at glover's home. i asked him who was present. he said mrs. paine was present, of course, both oswalds were present, and the de mohrenschildts were present. of course, glover was present and i don't remember who else he mentioned, and we started the conversation. mr. jenner. was fredricksen present? mr. mamantov. right, fredricksen and his wife, he and my wife, my mother-in-law and myself violently jumped into the conversation, and i said, "folks, you just don't know with whom you are associating. you shouldn't be at that party, and you shouldn't be going into those houses," and, of course, they said, "we just wanted to speak russian. mrs. paine wanted to learn russian, so we wanted to learn russian and we just decided to get together and learn russian." and they didn't speak russian very much except with marina. she was very shy and didn't talk very much. most of the evening was spent conversing with oswald on political questions, because he understood. mr. jenner. this was the report they made to you? mr. mamantov. that's correct. mr. jenner. in the questioning by the federal bureau of investigation, you mentioned either a mr. clark or a mrs. clark. mr. mamantov. yes, those people from fort worth. mr. jenner. what are their names--do you remember a given name? mr. mamantov. no, i don't remember, but he is a lawyer and his wife, she is a russian from france. he married her, i think, during the american occupation of europe. mr. jenner. by the way, mr. gregory is a native-born russian? mr. mamantov. yes, he is grigor'er. he has changed his name--it isn't his original name. mr. jenner. originally, it was gregoria and he changed it to gregory, spelled g-r-i-g-o-r'e-r [spelling]? mr. mamantov. it could be--he spelled it also with an "e", but that's originally his name. mr. jenner. he is a petroleum consultant of some type? mr. mamantov. petroleum engineer--correct. mr. jenner. is he part russian--part of the russian emigre group here in the dallas-fort worth area? mr. mamantov. that's right. you see, we are not meeting with them for quite a while as a group. we broke away, but individually, i have been with gregorys on a few occasions--i have been with the clarks on few occasions together. i have been with mr. bouhe quite frequently in the past--whom else--the same i know them very well personally but we didn't meet--we don't meet as a group any more. mr. jenner. mr. mamantov, do you have anything that occurs to you that you think i would like to add to the record that you think might be helpful to the presidential investigation of the assassination of president kennedy, in connection with its work in investigating the assassination of president john f. kennedy; if so, would you please state what you have in mind? mr. mamantov. i have grave doubts of marina's exit of the soviet union so easily. of course, i don't have any proof one way or the other--but knowing her life from what i translated, i have more doubt of her arrangement--how the woman could come out so easy from the soviet union, because if i liked to get--if i would have liked to take some of my family out it would take for me years and thousands of dollars to get my closest relative out of the soviet union. besides, she should be old, practically as a laborer help not useful to the soviet union, and here, a young lady-- or , just married an american citizen came out and--but i don't want to accuse her--maybe she's completely innocent. i know other cases where people would use all possible means to get out of the soviet union. maybe this is the case, but there is still in my mind quite a doubt of her coming out so easy. mr. jenner. is there anything else you want to add? mr. mamantov. no, not on this particular case, i think that's everything. mr. jenner. now, we have had some off the record discussions and i had a short talk with you before we began this deposition. mr. mamantov. right. mr. jenner. is there anything that occurred during the course of our off the record discussions or preliminary talks before the deposition, that you think is pertinent here that i have failed to bring out? mr. mamantov. no, i think you brought out everything that i think of. mr. jenner. was there anything you said to me in the off-the-record discussions or the preliminary discussions which, in your opinion, is inconsistent with any testimony that you have given on the record? mr. mamantov. no, i don't think it is. mr. jenner. and, as you sit there, do you have any feeling that at any time, on or off the record, that i directly or indirectly sought to influence you in any statements you might have made? mr. mamantov. no, sir. mr. jenner. well, we very much appreciate your cooperation and help and in sticking with us now and going into all of this with us, and at the moment, i don't have in mind anything further, but it is possible that while i am still here in dallas this week or next week, or afterwards, i might wish to get in touch with you and have you further extend your deposition. mr. mamantov. all right, sir. mr. jenner. we will close the taking of the deposition of mr. mamantov at this point. testimony of mrs. dorothy gravitis the testimony of mrs. dorothy gravitis was taken at p.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. david w. belin, assistant counsel of the president's commission. ilya a. mamantov, interpreter. mr. belin. i am going to ask you both to stand up. would you raise your right hand. mrs. gravitis and mr. ilya mamantov, do you solemnly swear, mrs. gravitis that the testimony you are about to give, and mr. mamantov, the translation that you are about to give, will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mrs. gravitis. yes. mr. mamantov. yes. mr. belin. your name is mrs. dorothy gravitis? mrs. gravitis. yes. mr. belin. where do you live? mrs. gravitis. today? mr. belin. now. mrs. gravitis. richardson, tex., fairway circle (ad - ). mr. belin. is that a suburb of dallas? mrs. gravitis. that's correct. mr. belin. mrs. gravitis, is your daughter married to mr. mamantov? mrs. gravitis. yes. mr. belin. where were you born? mrs. gravitis. latvia. mr. belin. may i ask approximately how old you are? mrs. gravitis. seventy-four years old. mr. belin. did you live in latvia all your life before coming to america? mrs. gravitis. first latvia was independent. it was part of russia. i was born in latvian territory, which was at that time russia. i was educated in russia, in moscow. i was teaching in the russian territory, and after that in latvian territory, before latvia became independent, in ventspils, the name of the city where i was teaching in latvia. mr. belin. latvia became independent in ? mrs. gravitis. yes. mr. belin. and remained independent until russia annexed these three baltic countries around , or so? mrs. gravitis. . in , i got married. mr. mamantov. do you need a very detailed story on her life? mr. belin. no. mrs. gravitis [through interpreter]. i lived until in ventspils, and then i and my husband were evacuated to st. petersburg or petrograd at that time. this was in . mr. belin. now it is leningrad? mrs. gravitis. leningrad. mr. belin. let me ask you this. did you stay in either russia or latvia from that time on until after--for how long? mrs. gravitis. from to , in petrograd. then in i and my daughter came to latvia. my husband remained in petrograd. they didn't let him out. mr. belin. from onward, where did you live? mrs. gravitis. from that time until , i lived and worked as a teacher in latvia. mr. belin. where did you teach? mrs. gravitis. i taught mathematics, approximately the equivalent to junior high, and the russian language. mr. belin. did you work for the state or for a private school? mrs. gravitis. state school. mr. belin. from , where did you live and what did you do? mrs. gravitis. at that time it became the soviet union, part of the soviet union, and i lived in the same spot in latvia. mr. belin. do you know the city? mrs. gravitis. zilupe, which is about half a mile from the russian border. mr. belin. how long did you stay there? from on? mrs. gravitis. all the time. mr. belin. until when? mrs. gravitis. i worked year under the communistic government as a teacher until . then i was teaching under the german occupation as a teacher until . then i came to live with mr. mamantov in , in riga, which is the latvian capital. mr. belin. up to , had your husband left petrograd to move back to latvia with you? mrs. gravitis. when i came with my daughter to latvia in , i didn't go back any more, and my husband joined me in february . mr. belin. and he stayed until how long? did he stay with you in latvia then, and what happened to him? mrs. gravitis. when he came to latvia, he was a railroad station manager immediately, or became. and i was a teacher in that town. and we lived there until , until he was arrested. mr. belin. do you know what ever became of him? mrs. gravitis. i don't know. just recently i received a letter from my sister-in-law and she said that he died in siberia and didn't know when. mr. belin. when did you leave latvia, and where did you go? mrs. gravitis. , i went to germany. mr. belin. you went with your daughter and son-in-law? mrs. gravitis. yes; and two children. mr. belin. and your two children? mrs. gravitis. yes. mr. belin. your two grandchildren? mrs. gravitis. yes. mr. belin. where did you stay in germany? mrs. gravitis. in bavaria. mr. belin. in a camp? mrs. gravitis. no; not immediately. we were all the time together, and so we came to bavaria in october , and stayed in private residences until august , and at that time we went to dp camp near guenzburg. mr. belin. how long did you stay in the dp camp? until when? mrs. gravitis. four years in--until october of , when we went to bremerhaven and proceeded to the united states. mr. mamantov. she left weeks ahead of us because her name started with "g". mr. belin. where did you go in the united states when you got here? where have you lived since you have come here? mrs. gravitis. in new york city. mr. belin. how long did you live in new york, and where have you lived since then? mrs. gravitis. approximately - / or . however, we left new york february , . mr. belin. and you came to---- mrs. gravitis. to post, tex. mr. belin. is that near dallas? mrs. gravitis. miles west of dallas. mr. belin. how long did you stay in post, tex.? mrs. gravitis. i am sorry, brownfield, which is miles north of post. mr. belin. where have you lived in texas since then? mrs. gravitis. quite a few places, because i don't remember the small towns. brownfield, lubbock, and again brownfield. mr. belin. since you have come to texas, have you always lived with your daughter and son-in-law? mrs. gravitis. yes. mr. belin [to mr. mamantov]. so in your deposition, i would assume then, mr. mamantov, what you said, i would find the places you have lived in texas? mr. mamantov. that's correct. mr. belin. before coming to texas, did you do anything in europe other than teach? any occupation other than teaching when you were in europe? mrs. gravitis. before we left latvia, you mean? mr. belin. yes. mrs. gravitis. i was a housewife also. no other profession. mr. belin. since coming to america, what has been your occupation? mrs. gravitis. in new york i was part-time janitor together with mr. mamantov, on broadway somewhere. was cleaning the sidewalks and heating the furnace. the people helped me, the neighbors helped me to clean the sidewalks. i was raising the grandchildren, and by that time we had three. one was born in germany. then after that i sewed and taught russian, individual students. mr. belin. this is generally what you have done then since coming to texas, is private tutoring? mrs. gravitis. and sewing. the sewing is the main point, but tutoring on and off, because it is not enough students. mr. belin. when did you first become acquainted with ruth paine, mrs. michael paine? mrs. gravitis. i was teaching in berlitz school here in dallas. i was also teaching mrs. paine. this was years ago, but i don't remember the date when i started. and mrs. paine used to take russian instructions at the berlitz school, but not from me. i can add this. mr. belin. do you know how much the berlitz school of russian lessons cost? mrs. gravitis. you mean how much i got paid? mr. belin. no; how much mrs. paine paid? mrs. gravitis. i don't know for sure. the principal didn't tell me, but i heard somewhere from $ to $ . mr. belin. that is at the berlitz school? mrs. gravitis. he paid me $ . . mr. belin. $ . for a private lesson? mrs. gravitis. yes. mr. belin. being directly, not through the berlitz school? mrs. gravitis. no; i received remuneration. mr. belin. the berlitz school paid you $ . ? mrs. gravitis. yes. mr. belin. for how long a teaching session would this be? mrs. gravitis. one hour. mr. belin. a private session at the berlitz school for one hour, or would this be several people in the class? mrs. gravitis. if i had one student, then i received $ . . if i had two, then i received $ . mr. belin. when you taught mrs. paine, was there generally one student? mrs. gravitis. excuse me, i never taught mrs. paine. mrs. paine was taking lessons before i came to that school. mr. belin. how did you get in contact with mrs. paine? mrs. gravitis. i gave two lessons to mrs. paine at the berlitz school. this way i became acquainted and she said it was too expensive, and mrs. paine dropped out of school. mr. mamantov. after she dropped out, mrs. paine called me at the office and asked me to teach, and i refused, but i suggested my mother-in-law would teach her at home. mr. belin. at whose home? mrs. gravitis. at our home. i mean it is a private lesson for $ per hour, private lesson. mr. belin. when mrs. paine was taking from you those two lessons at the berlitz school, was there anyone else in the class with her? mrs. gravitis. she was by herself and i gave her only two lessons. mr. belin. what kind of student was mrs. paine? mrs. gravitis. she was a good student, talented, serious. mr. belin. had she had any contact with any other russian teachers, that you know of, in russia? mrs. gravitis. pardon me? mr. belin. did mrs. paine have any contact with any russian teachers in russia? mrs. gravitis. yes. mr. belin. what do you know about this? mrs. gravitis. i was correcting the lessons. i had the letters--mrs. paine was writing to this particular teacher. the name of this teacher was nina, and she was teaching english language, beginning classes. some were in russian, somewhere in russia. i don't remember the name of the city. mr. belin. do you know how mrs. paine got in contact with this russian teacher? mrs. gravitis. i asked her, and as far as i remember, she said through a youth organization, but she didn't go into detail. i didn't question her any more. mr. belin. do you know what the name of the youth organization was? mrs. gravitis. no; i don't. mr. belin. or was it a political youth organization? mrs. gravitis. i don't know. mr. belin. in the letters that you translated or corrected did the grammar of mrs. paine, contain any political discussion? mrs. gravitis. letters, you mean? mr. belin. the letters that mrs. paine was sending to the teacher, or the letters you saw from the teacher, was there any political discussion involved? mrs. gravitis. no. mr. belin. when did you first start teaching mrs. paine? mrs. gravitis. i started some time during the summer before mrs. paine's son was born, who was born in february, the following february, and then she discontinued taking lessons. mr. belin. what period would this have been? what year? mrs. gravitis. approximately years ago. the boy right now is years old, so we say . mr. belin. , wouldn't it? mrs. gravitis. the boy was born in . yes; , the summer of . mr. belin. after the boy was born, did you ever give her any more russian language lessons? mrs. gravitis. yes; during the fall when the boy was a few months old. mr. belin. did you keep up contact with mrs. paine after she quit taking lessons? mrs. gravitis. yes. mr. belin. when did you first hear or learn about marina oswald? mrs. gravitis. either april or may. probably april. mr. and mrs. fredricksen came to our house and told us they had attended a party, that there was an american who came recently from the soviet union, and his wife is a russian. mr. belin. when did you first have a conversation with marina oswald? mrs. gravitis. i never have talked with her in person, but only on the phone. in may of that particular year, mrs. paine went to san antonio, and she asked me would i help marina because she doesn't know the english language and nobody could help her. mr. belin. this was mrs. paine? mrs. gravitis. she asked me to help, and marina was pregnant at that time. mr. belin. let me ask you this. have you ever met marina oswald? mrs. gravitis. no. mr. belin. have you ever met, or did you ever meet lee harvey oswald, her husband? mrs. gravitis. no. mr. belin. did you ever talk to lee harvey oswald on the telephone? mrs. gravitis. no. mr. belin. did you ever talk to marina oswald on the telephone? mrs. gravitis. yes. mr. belin. how many times, approximately, have you talked to marina oswald? mrs. gravitis. two. mr. belin. when did the first conversation take place, and what was said? mrs. gravitis. the time when mrs. paine went to san antonio, we had a severe storm, and the next day in the morning, i called marina at the paine's home. mr. belin. this would have been when? mrs. gravitis. i think this was in may , or , i forget. this was this past summer, . mr. belin. what did marina oswald say? did she say where she was from and where she lived before she came to this country? mrs. gravitis. i asked her where did she come from, from what city in russia. the answer was, she came from leningrad and used to live in leningrad, on ligovka street. mr. belin. did she say she lived anywhere else other than leningrad? mrs. gravitis. she said she lived in minsk and got married in minsk, and together with her husband--excuse me it is just the reverse. she lived in minsk, got married in minsk, and went to leningrad and lived on this street in leningrad. mr. belin. after she was married? mrs. gravitis. yes. mr. belin. she lived in leningrad with her husband after she got married? mr. mamantov. would you mind if she started again? mr. belin. let's start at the beginning now. mrs. gravitis. in minsk she got married. this is white russia. and then together with her husband arrived at leningrad. they lived in leningrad on this street, ligovka street. mr. mamantov. now mother stresses that so much, because she remembers this part in petrograd very well, and this was the laborers, the poor part of leningrad--i mean of petrograd at that time, and somehow brought mother's memory back to petrograd. mr. belin. did she say what she did in leningrad and minsk after she was married, or what her husband did? mrs. gravitis. i asked her what is her profession. she said she is a pharmacist. and i was surprised at years and pharmacist. mr. belin. did she say what her husband did in russia? mrs. gravitis. i didn't ask and she didn't say. mr. belin. did she say what her father did? mrs. gravitis. no. she said that she didn't have parents. father and mother were dead, and for this reason she had easier time to get out of russia. mr. belin. did she have a stepfather? mrs. gravitis. i don't know. mr. belin. did she say why she came to the united states? mrs. gravitis. she said her husband was returning home and she came with her husband. i was very surprised how did the soviet union let you out, i asked marina. she said, "we had a luck." mr. belin. did she say anything else about that? mrs. gravitis. "husband doesn't have work here." i mean in the united states, and so her husband didn't have any income, and for this reason she lives at mrs. paine's home. mr. belin. did she give any other statements about how she happened to get out of russia other than that she had luck? mrs. gravitis. i didn't ask and i felt she wouldn't tell me. i mean, i didn't ask, and i feel if i asked, marina wouldn't tell me. nobody who is coming out from there would tell how they got out or why they got out. she was complaining that her husband didn't have work here and couldn't get a job. i replied that everybody who wants to work in the united states can get a job. then she asked me what kind of work you mean. i said any kind of laboring work is possible. roadwork or any kind of work. and she said that her husband thinks that such type of work is below his dignity. mr. belin. did she say whether or not her husband was a communist? mr. mamantov. she would like to ask you now what do you understand by the word communist? mr. belin. well, i would like to have your mother-in-law explain just what she would call it. mrs. gravitis. i had a conversation. i said here in dallas is a person or a gentleman who helps many russians who are arriving in this city, or who has helped in the past, mr. bouhe. marina said, "yes, i know him." she said her husband and mr. bouhe don't match in their characters. and i replied that you think probably not match the characters, but they agree in their principles, and she said, "yes." mr. mamantov. she said, my husband--and this word, i don't know exactly how to translate it--i mistranslated it for the fbi, this word, and i think in your investigation it is very important. she replied that her husband is now--i could not translate just the individual word. i have to give you the meaning of the russian word, which was developed fairly recently--that my husband is a person who believes in ideas, and it means ideals of the communist movement. now, i can give you the translation of this word if you would like to insert, because maybe in washington you can get a better description of this word. mr. belin. can you spell the word? mr. mamantov. yes; ideinyi--which has political connotations, and it means a person who believes in the communist movement, communist ideals, but doesn't hold yet a ticket or membership in the communist party. but this is a step to achieve the membership in the communist party. and i think it is very important, which mother emphasizes, and i translated it in the fbi report, "idealist," which is not correct. so it is broken down first, pioneer. second, the membership in the youth communist party. third, the candidate for the communist party. and this third step is eventually for this particular work. mr. belin. as i understand it now, you say there are various stages to become a member of the communist party in russia, is that correct? mr. mamantov. when mother heard this word from marina, she couldn't talk to her any more or ask her any questions, because this stage of the person becoming a full time member communist was most dangerous for the people in russia or in latvia or in the soviet union. mr. belin. what do you mean by most dangerous? mrs. gravitis. i mean that this is the most dangerous stage, because this person or during this stage, they are spying on other people. they are spying on other people to gain personal reward from the communistic people. mr. belin. in other words, they had to do certain deeds when they go to the last stage, which is the actual communist membership, is that it? mrs. gravitis. yes. i also said in the previous conversation, which i can assure you that this is true, which i know from my personal experience. when i was teaching from until , people like this, who were in this particular stage, who were not yet members of the communist party, were spying on me, listening behind the door when i was teaching in the class, and this way it is my experience from that. mr. belin. i believe that she said that a very small percentage of the russians are actual members of the communist party, and that it is the screening process that gets memberships, is that correct? mr. mamantov. yes. it is a small percent of population are the members, are the actual members of the communist party, and to become, they have to gain reward. i mean, they have to be advanced by the individual deed. mr. belin. about what percent are members of the communist party? mr. mamantov. are you asking her at that time when she left or what it is now? mr. belin. both. mrs. gravitis. at that time there were approximately million, which is percent, approximately. and i have read recently that there are approximately or more million people members. mr. belin. but she doesn't know of her own knowledge? mr. mamantov. she read. she said that she read recently also that there are approximately million of the communistic youth members, or members of the communistic youth organization. mrs. gravitis. if you don't belong to that organization, you cannot get education. you cannot advance in your educational system. mr. belin. did marina oswald say whether she was a communist? mrs. gravitis. she said that when she got married she was expelled from the communistic youth organization, which in russia is called komsomol. mr. belin. did she say why she was expelled? mrs. gravitis. because she married an american. i understood that this was the reason why she was expelled. and i asked how did they allow you to leave the soviet union. when you are expelled, they considered them as enemies of the people, and they don't give them permission even to work, a working permit. and they don't give those people also the free education or scholarship. mr. belin. when you are expelled from the communist movement, does this affect whether or not you get out of the country? mrs. gravitis. i don't know. i think it wouldn't help. mr. belin. did marina oswald say anything else about her husband? mrs. gravitis. no. mr. belin. did she say much about the people that she knew here in dallas, tex.? mrs. gravitis. she said that many russians helped her and americans here in this vicinity helped her. she said that she wouldn't like to meet with the russians any more. mr. belin. why not? mrs. gravitis. because russians are asking too many questions. i feel that because she got tired of being questioned all the time. mr. belin. did marina oswald say whether or not she would take any work here? mr. mamantov. they haven't talked on this particular subject. however, mother's interpretation is that she couldn't work because she has a small child. she talked only about her husband who didn't have work and they didn't have an automobile. mr. belin. didn't have an automobile? mrs. gravitis. that's correct. mr. belin. did her husband know how to drive? mrs. gravitis. i don't know. mr. belin. did she say anything about her husband as a photographer? mrs. gravitis. yes; he would like to obtain a job as a photographer. and i understood that he was in oak cliff a photographer, and when he went to new orleans, he continued to look for a job as a photographer. mr. belin. did marina oswald say anything about what her husband did or had done in russia and where he had gone? mrs. gravitis. no; only that he was in minsk and then leningrad so much. i didn't ask her any more questions. mr. belin. could he travel in russia? mrs. gravitis. i don't know. mr. belin. what kind of living accommodations did lee harvey oswald have in russia? a house, or an apartment, or what? mrs. gravitis. she said that in leningrad they had a room, and she volunteered to say that the room was better than the russian people locally would have. mr. belin. why was this? mrs. gravitis. was because her husband was an american. mr. belin. was it just that he was an american? did she say, or was it because he was in this so-called third stage of the--of becoming a member of the communist party? mrs. gravitis. i don't know. mr. belin. did she say anything about whether or not the husband, lee harvey oswald, had a gun in russia or whether he went hunting there? mrs. gravitis. no. mr. belin. she didn't say anything? mrs. gravitis. i didn't have time to talk. it is my personal opinion, if he is just an average man in russia, he wouldn't have any chance to have a gun or rifle or shotgun in russia. mr. belin. what about to become a member of a hunting club or go hunting? mrs. gravitis. this is so in america. there is no such thing as hunting clubs over there. mr. belin. you know of no such hunting clubs over there? mrs. gravitis. of course there are trappers, but either they are professional trappers or they are members of the communistic party. otherwise, you have to have permission to have a firearm. mr. belin. you have to be a member of the communist party to belong to a hunting club? mrs. gravitis. i don't know. mr. belin. did marina oswald say anything about ever going for walks to discuss things so they wouldn't be overheard when they were in russia? mrs. gravitis. no. mr. belin. when you say that the living accommodations were better because lee harvey oswald was an american, what do you mean they were better? in what way would they be better than the average person there? mrs. gravitis. the room was larger, cleaner, and probably in a better area of the city. i think, because he would write to his relatives, that he certainly would say that he had better accommodations. mr. belin. what did marina oswald say about how she liked the united states? mrs. gravitis. she liked the united states and she also said that she was watching tv that particular day when they talked, and she saw our president being in the crowd and shaking hands with people. it was unbelievable. she said it is unbelievable such a freedom. mr. belin. did she say anything about whether she belonged to a church? mrs. gravitis. in russia or in the united states? mr. belin. here in the states. mrs. gravitis. she didn't say that she belonged to a church, but she did say that she christened her daughter or she had christened her daughter. mr. belin. and what church? mrs. gravitis. the greek orthodox. it is called eastern orthodox. mr. belin. here in dallas? mrs. gravitis. yes. mr. belin. was there anything else in this first conversation that you had with her that she said about her husband? mrs. gravitis. first of all, what struck me was that she said it is below his dignity to take any kind of work. that surprised me very much. that is my personal interpretation. mr. belin. my question is this. is there anything else that marina oswald said about her husband? mrs. gravitis. no. mr. belin. now did you have any other telephone conversations with marina oswald? mrs. gravitis. two times. mr. belin. two more? mrs. gravitis. twice in total. mr. belin. two conversations in total? mrs. gravitis. that's correct. mr. belin. now, the first one you said was in may of ? mrs. gravitis. that's right. mr. belin. when was the second one? mrs. gravitis. approximately maybe or weeks. i don't remember exactly when mrs. paine came back from san antonio. mr. belin. this would be, say, june of ? mrs. gravitis. approximately. before she went to new orleans. mr. belin. have you ever talked to marina oswald since that time? mrs. gravitis. no. mr. belin. have you ever talked to mrs. paine about either marina oswald or lee harvey oswald since these conversations with marina oswald, or about that time? have you ever since talked to mrs. paine about the oswalds? mrs. gravitis. yes. mr. belin. what did you say, and what did mrs. paine say? mrs. gravitis. mrs. paine told me that oswald obtained a job as a photographer in new orleans, and now marina can join him and go to new orleans. mr. belin. did mrs. paine ever invite you over to the home to meet marina oswald or her husband? mrs. gravitis. no; but she offered to bring marina to our house. i mean, she didn't invite me to her own house, but offered to bring marina to our house. mr. belin. what did you say to that? mrs. gravitis. she can bring marina, but not her husband. mr. belin. why didn't you want her husband? mrs. gravitis. because he was using again this word, ideinyi. he was in the third stage of obtaining the communist membership. because i am afraid, and all of us are afraid that they are collecting some information on us and notifying their own people. mr. belin. by the use of the word "they," who do you mean? lee harvey oswald, marina oswald, or both, or some other person? mrs. gravitis. oswald--the people who are in this particular stage trying to get promotion. so they would spy on us. i had a fear. mr. belin. did you think or did you say anything to mrs. paine about whether marina oswald had anything to do with this group that might be trying to spy, or what have you? mrs. gravitis. if i said to---- mr. belin. to mrs. paine? mrs. gravitis. no; have not said. however, i said to mrs. paine to be more careful. mr. belin. what did mrs. paine say to that? mrs. gravitis. she said, "don't worry." mrs. paine is an american woman, and she is very naive, as all americans are naive, nice, and very generous. mr. belin. are you a citizen, mrs. gravitis? mrs. gravitis. yes. mr. belin. are you coming here voluntarily to testify before the warren commission, the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy? mrs. gravitis. yes; we received a letter from washington, of course. mr. belin. but you are here voluntarily to testify here? you have been asked to come here? mrs. gravitis. nobody dragged us here; yes. we certainly volunteered, if you interpret it that way. mr. belin. is there any other information you can give about lee harvey oswald or marina oswald that you feel might be helpful in any way? mrs. gravitis. you mean personal opinion? mr. belin. go ahead. mrs. gravitis. mrs. paine told me that oswald--i did not know her last name, she always called her marina and lee--so mrs. paine told me that lee wants to send his wife to the soviet union. i asked why. she said, "she was pregnant." and she said, "lee said that he doesn't have money to pay doctor bills, but had enough money to send her back to the soviet union." i said that this isn't true. i was surprised, and i replied that this isn't true, because it is possible if a person doesn't have money, that medical help would be given for free here in the states. that is, mrs. paine was surprised if this could be true, that we could get local free help. i suggested to her to contact her personal physician and he will send marina somewhere. she said i will go on my way back from vacation and pick up marina and bring her. and then when she got back, she called me again and said she is very happy for this suggestion, that marina got free medical help, had another baby, and even the doctor offered with her dental work, and she said the treatment was excellent in the hospital. i was very surprised how mrs. paine didn't know, and oswald being also an american didn't know that local help or local medical help is available to people who don't have money. mr. belin. did mrs. paine or marina oswald or anyone say anything more to you about marina oswald or lee harvey oswald that you think should be noted here, that we should discuss? mrs. gravitis. maybe, but i don't remember right now. mr. belin. is there anything else that you care to add? mrs. gravitis. mrs. paine told me that lee is very bad husband, that he even hit her, marina. mr. belin. when did mrs. paine tell you this? mrs. gravitis. when she went to pick up marina in new orleans. she said, "i have to go in person to pick her up because i cannot write her things like that, that lee would read her letters and then would reprimand his wife." mr. belin. did she say whether marina said that this had been different, that lee had always been this way about hitting his wife, or was this something different that happened when they came to new orleans? mrs. gravitis. marina did not tell me. mr. belin. i mean mrs. paine? mrs. gravitis. i didn't ask and she didn't say. mr. belin. is there any other information that you can think of that might be helpful here? mrs. gravitis. mrs. paine was at our house the first of april of this year, . i asked if she thought if marina would know if lee had intended to kill somebody, or president. and mrs. paine replied that she thought that marina did not know. however, she felt that marina knew that oswald was in mexico, but she didn't tell marina. mr. belin. what do you mean she didn't tell marina? mrs. gravitis. excuse me, marina didn't tell mrs. paine. marina knew that oswald was in mexico, but about his being there, didn't tell mrs. paine. mr. belin. why do you feel that mexico was very important? mrs. gravitis. because i felt that he was preparing himself for a trip somewhere; either cuba or somewhere else. mr. belin. but this is just a feeling, or did you have any facts upon which to base it? mrs. gravitis. no; this is my personal feeling. mr. belin. any other facts that you know of that might be helpful here? mrs. gravitis. i would help you more, but i don't have enough acquaintance here in town that i really feel that i would know more. i know mrs. paine beside her russian tutoring so well, because mrs. paine or her husband left her. she was separated or still is separated, so mrs. paine more or less came to me an elderly person for advice. her husband came home after the president was assassinated. mr. belin. why did he come home, do you know? mrs. gravitis. i asked her, but mrs. paine said she don't know why. and she still has domestic problems. i feel that he would like to make it easier on her after that particular time. mr. belin. anything else you can think of that might be relevant? mrs. gravitis. no. mr. belin. well, we want to thank you very much for coming down here, mrs. gravitis, and also thank you very much, for your help. mrs. gravitis. thank you; mr. belin. mr. belin. your mother-in-law has the opportunity to read the deposition and sign it or make corrections. do you want to come down and do that with her some time, or do you want to waive the signing and let it go directly to washington? mr. mamantov. she trusts you without signing. mr. belin. so you waive the signing? mr. mamantov. yes. testimony of paul roderick gregory the testimony of paul roderick gregory was taken at p.m., on march , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. liebeler. would you rise and i will swear you as a witness? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. gregory. i do. mr. liebeler. i would like to advise you that my name is wesley j. liebeler. i am a member of the legal staff of the president's commission investigating the assassination of president kennedy. i have been authorized to take your deposition by the commission pursuant to authority granted to it by executive order , dated november , , and joint resolution of congress no. . i understand that mr. rankin wrote you a letter either last week or the week before last, with respect to your appearance to give testimony. i believe that he included a copy of the executive order and the resolution of congress, as well as a copy of the commission's rules of procedure relating to the taking of testimony; isn't that right? mr. gregory. yes. mr. liebeler. i want to inquire of you today concerning your knowledge of lee harvey oswald and marina oswald, which we understand you gained as a result of your association with the oswalds, basically during . mr. gregory. yes. mr. liebeler. would you state your full name for the record, please? mr. gregory. paul roderick gregory. mr. liebeler. you are presently a student of the university of oklahoma; isn't that right? mr. gregory. yes. mr. liebeler. what are you studying at the university of oklahoma? mr. gregory. russian language and literature. mr. liebeler. what year are you in at the university? mr. gregory. first year graduate student. mr. liebeler. you already hold a degree from the university? mr. gregory. i have a bachelor's degree in economics. mr. liebeler. you are now pursuing a master's or doctor's? mr. gregory. a master's degree. mr. liebeler. in the subject you have just indicated? mr. gregory. yes; russian language and literature. mr. liebeler. you are the son, are you not, of peter paul gregory? mr. gregory. yes. mr. liebeler. where does he live? mr. gregory. dorothy lane, fort worth, tex. mr. liebeler. your father is originally from somewhere in siberia, is that not correct? mr. gregory. yes. mr. liebeler. and he came to the united states approximately when, do you know? mr. gregory. i would guess about , or ' , or ' . i am not sure of the exact year. mr. liebeler. he has engaged in business as a geological consultant, is that correct? mr. gregory. yes. mr. liebeler. when is the last time you were home in fort worth? mr. gregory. i can't tell you the exact date. it must have been february the th, i believe, or february the th, because it was right around my birthday, which is february the th. mr. liebeler. what year were you born? mr. gregory. . mr. liebeler. have you had occasion to speak with your father over the telephone or to exchange letters with him since the time he appeared before the commission in washington. mr. gregory. i spoke with him approximately three times since that, i guess. mr. liebeler. did you discuss with him the testimony that he gave before the commission? mr. gregory. no. he only said that he mentioned my name. that is the only thing he said about the testimony. mr. liebeler. did there come a time when you met lee harvey oswald and his wife, marina? mr. gregory. yes. mr. liebeler. would you tell us when that was and the circumstances of that event? mr. gregory. i met lee and marina oswald in the summer of . i would suppose in the middle of june. i met them both at lee's brother's house in the western part of fort worth. lee oswald had become acquainted with my father a week or two weeks earlier. i think he came to him with the desire to get some kind of paper showing his ability in the russian language; i think he wanted to get a job as interpreter or something; some kind of work which would have something to do with his ability to use russian. i think he came in my father's office twice. i am not sure, because i wasn't there, and gave him the address of his brother where he was staying at the time. and i don't know, he may have said, "come see us." and my father and i were both interested in meeting his wife who was russian, we heard. so, i believe my father found out their address and we went out for a visit, purely social visit. that was, as i say, probably in the middle of june, , and that was the first time i ever met either lee oswald or marina oswald. mr. liebeler. did you know that at some time, in about june of , your father invited the oswalds to come to your house? mr. gregory. oh, yes. mr. liebeler. was that before or after the time that you mentioned? mr. gregory. that was at the end of the summer. they had actually been at our house twice. one time about a month before this dinner at our house. i just drove by with them for a few minutes. that was the first time they had ever been to our house. and the second time was at this dinner which you mentioned. mr. liebeler. when was the dinner? mr. gregory. i can't give you the date. it was near the end of the summer, i imagine, in august, . mr. liebeler. so the first time, then, that you met oswald was at his brother's place in fort worth? mr. gregory. yes. mr. liebeler. who was present at that first meeting? mr. gregory. his brother's name, i think, was bob oswald. bob oswald's wife and their children, i think they had two or three young kids, lee, and marina, and june lee, their baby, those were the only people there. mr. liebeler. plus your father and yourself? mr. gregory. yes. mr. liebeler. tell us, to the best of your recollection, what the conversation was at that time? mr. gregory. i remember they brought out pictures which they had taken in the soviet union and showed us where they had lived in minsk, and i believe they might have had pictures of leningrad. i am not sure. and then this evening there was something said about their trip back, how they passed through poland and germany. and then my father wanted to know how, what marina thought of russia, if it had changed after all the years. and that was the general tone of the conversation. mr. liebeler. can you remember any details of the conversation about the oswalds' life in russia? mr. gregory. at this time i did not. later on we had quite a bit of discussion about it, but not this time. mr. liebeler. would you go through the period of time that you knew the oswalds, and to the best of your recollection tell us the approximate number of times that you saw them and the circumstances under which you saw them, and the dates that you can remember, from the first time you met them at robert oswald's house at fort worth, to the last time that you saw them? mr. gregory. okay. we have already gone through the first meeting, and right after the first meeting i left town for about a month. i visited in san francisco. i returned and then we decided it would be a good idea if i would take russian lessons from marina, and it would be quite a big help. therefore, the second time i saw them was in june, the middle of june, a month, and to the th of august, let's say, just as a guess, we went over to their house, my father and i. we had to go somewhere, and therefore we only stayed for about ten minutes. and we said, "paul would like to take russian lessons from marina," and she said, "fine." and i set up dates to go twice a week, i think tuesdays and thursdays, or tuesdays and fridays--i can't remember the exact dates. therefore, i was at their house two times a week from, say, the middle of august until i went back to school which was in the middle of september. mr. liebeler. were you also present at the dinner which your father gave for the oswalds? mr. gregory. yes. mr. liebeler. who else was present at that dinner? mr. gregory. myself, my father, the oswalds, george bouhe, anna meller, her husband, i can't remember his first name; then mrs. clark and mr. clark. i can't give you their first names. mr. liebeler. you clearly remember that they were there? mr. gregory. i think they were there. i could be mistaken. there is a possibility they weren't. i can't remember exactly. usually, the reason is, whenever we have the russians over, they were there. now that i think about it, they weren't, because i believe my mother was the only one that didn't understand, and mrs. clark's husband didn't understand russian. therefore, i guess they weren't there. then my mother was there and june lee was there. mr. liebeler. the oswalds' little girl? mr. gregory. yes. i believe that was all. and i saw them once more, if you are interested. that was probably the friday or saturday after thanksgiving of . marina called up. i was home for vacation. and she said that she and lee were at robert oswald's house for thanksgiving dinner, or something, and she wanted me to come over and pick them up and have the visit, and i would take them down to the bus station, because they rode the bus over from dallas. they had since then moved to dallas. and i went and picked them up and brought them back to our house and we had sandwiches, and i took them down to the bus station, and that was the last time i saw them. mr. liebeler. you just left them off at the bus station and they went and got on the bus, and as far as you know, went back to dallas? mr. gregory. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. you didn't pay for the bus tickets, did you? mr. gregory. no. mr. liebeler. you let them off at the bus station in fort worth? mr. gregory. yes. mr. liebeler. you let them--did you ever give any money to either lee or marina oswald? mr. gregory. yes; i gave marina a check. as i remember, it was around $ or $ , something like that. this was for the russian lessons which she did give me. as i remember, $ , something like that. mr. liebeler. is that all the money that you gave to either of them? mr. gregory. yes. mr. liebeler. and that check was made out to marina oswald, is that correct? mr. gregory. marina. mr. liebeler. did you ever lend the oswalds any money? mr. gregory. no. mr. liebeler. did you ever see anybody else ever give either of the oswalds any money? mr. gregory. no. mr. liebeler. do you know of anybody else ever giving them any money? mr. gregory. i believe mr. bouhe gave them money. i know he gave them gifts, playthings for their daughter, and possibly clothes. i heard he gave them clothes, but i, myself, did not see this, so that is hearsay. mr. liebeler. did either of the oswalds ever spend any money or pay any bills while in your presence? mr. gregory. yes. i often took them--i believe the second day i would go over in the week was friday, and i would usually take them shopping and we would go down to a leonard department store where you could get groceries cheaper, and they would buy their groceries at this time. but the only articles they were purchasing in my presence was food. mr. liebeler. do you have any recollection of approximately how much they spent on food? mr. gregory. it was very little. i recall i was amazed at how little they bought, and that lee would always be very careful with the meat. he would be sure to get the cheapest possible cut he could get, and he would haggle and make sure they gave him the best. i mean, that he would get the better cuts and things like that. i remember they bought very little though. mr. liebeler. other than the groceries, you never saw them spend any money or pay any bills; is that correct? mr. gregory. no; never. mr. liebeler. you did not see them? i suppose the answer should be, "yes; i did not see them"? mr. gregory. yes; i did not see them paying any bills. mr. liebeler. did the oswalds ever discuss their finances with you, or discuss their finances between themselves that you ever heard? mr. gregory. not that i can remember. there is something faintly about them saying, "well, if we had this money, we would buy something for june lee," but i can't think of any specific instance. mr. liebeler. now, taking all of your experiences with the oswalds together and all of the conversations that you had with them, would you relate to us what they told you, and differentiate between lee or marina, as best you can, about the whole russian episode, why oswald went to russia; what he did when he was there; how he met marina; why he decided to come back; and how he came back, and so on? mr. gregory. on one of the questions i can't answer very well because i never discussed with him why he went. i personally never asked him. at this dinner, i am sure you have already heard an account of it, he explained that he went because he was disgusted with the american system or the capitalist system where everything is run by money and the desire to get money. that seemed to be his only objection, that i ever heard, and his only reason as to why he left. let's see, what was the other. oh, according to lee, then also he was very disgusted with the marines, how the marines had treated him. i don't know if you could classify that as a reason for him leaving and going to the soviet union. maybe it was. mr. liebeler. what did he tell you about that? mr. gregory. oh, i just asked him--i knew he had been in the marines--what he thought of it. he would never speak of it. he was sort of--look disgusted and say, "i don't want to talk about it," or something like that. those are the only two reasons which i heard, and the second one would be one which i am not sure of. mr. liebeler. he never discussed with you beyond the extent you have indicated, his experience in the marine corps? mr. gregory. no; he was disgusted with it. mr. liebeler. did he ever indicate anything about his discharge from the marines? mr. gregory. no; he never did. i think a lot of things which he told me were like the way he talked, that he graduated from high school, from the same high school that i had gone to, and i read in the papers that he was only there a month or so. so, possibly a lot of information which he had given me would not be right, but he never did speak of a discharge. mr. liebeler. whether it would be right or not, it is important that you tell us what he told you. you indicate now that he did tell you that he graduated from arlington heights high school, is that correct? mr. gregory. yes. mr. liebeler. and you believed that until after the assassination and you read in the newspaper that he had not, in fact, graduated from arlington? mr. gregory. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. did he tell you what kind of job he had in the soviet union? mr. gregory. he was in some kind of factory. evidently, according to him, it had something to do with radio equipment, because i remember asking him once about thievery in the soviet union, because i always read or had thought that factory workers take what they need and barter because they don't get enough or are not able to make enough money to buy all they need. and he said that he himself had stolen a radio and phonograph. from that i know it was some kind of a shop and he ran some kind of a machine. because he told me of some incident when he had to--the shop had to be changed, or they moved the equipment into another building, and the first thing they moved was the picture of lenin and later they moved the equipment. it was heavy equipment, and they set the machines so that the men could work facing lenin. and then they decided lenin had to be hung in the most favorable place in the shop, and the commissar came in and inspected the next setup and decided lenin wasn't in the right place, and, therefore, they had to come back in and completely remount all the machinery and turn it around to face lenin's new position. he brought that up as a--i would ask him about what the people in the soviet union think of a person who is a member of the communist party. and he seemed to classify all members of the communist party as opportunists who were in it just to get something for themselves out of it, and he brought up this incident here because it was a communist party man who came in and said you have to put lenin back there, and therefore you have to completely re-do all the machinery. he thought it was stupid. and he said all the members of the communist party were always the ones that shouted the loudest and made the most noise and pretended to be the most patriotic, but he seemed to have quite a disgust for the members of the communist party. mr. liebeler. he indicated quite a disgust for them? mr. gregory. yes; he thought they were opportunists and it was my impression that he thought they were ruining the principles which the country should be based on. in other words, they were not true communists. they were ruining the heaven on earth which it should be, in his opinion. that might have been a personal interpretation on my part. mr. liebeler. did he tell you anything more than the kind of place that he worked and what he did? mr. gregory. just that he worked in a shop that i mentioned. i remember his main complaint about his life there was that he didn't get enough to eat, that he had to go, either he or marina, would have to go stand in line in order to get anything, and he seemed to have only potatoes and cabbage while he was there. and he would always speak about how poorly he ate. that seemed to be his great objection to the soviet union, that he didn't eat very well. mr. liebeler. did he indicate that the same was true of other soviet citizens, or---- mr. gregory. yes. mr. liebeler. they all had the same trouble? mr. gregory. yes. mr. liebeler. did he indicate in any way that he might have received more favorable treatment as compared to other soviet citizens who held similar jobs? mr. gregory. no. i think he was under the opinion that he possibly received worse than just average treatment, because i think in the soviet union, as i understand it, the methods of the bestowing of favors is to give somebody a good apartment, because of the housing shortage. and he complained that he did not get good housing. he lived in a poor apartment, and that he was unable to change his job or leave, because he had no place to go. if he would leave or go to another factory, he would not be able to get a new apartment. and i think i asked him a question about are people in the soviet union free to change jobs and travel from place to place, and he said maybe technically but they can't because it depends on the apartment. then, as to whether he got special treatment, i asked marina. i said, "was he the center of attention in russia," and she said he was quite a, i wouldn't say freak or oddity, but something quite unusual, and i am sure he enjoyed this fact that he was the center of attention. she said she met him at a dance, i guess in minsk, and she didn't know who he was, and she danced with him or something, and thought he was, because of his accent, thought he was from the baltic states, and later somebody called her aside and said, "i guess you don't know who he is," and so forth, and i guess they more or less left him alone. i know he mentioned having several friends in the soviet union. one was some young fellow, i think his name was pavel, and possibly another fellow, and i know after he was in the united states he continued to correspond with these people over there. he showed me letters which he had written to them or which he was getting ready to send, and letters which he had received. i believe one was the son of a highly fairly influential person. mr. liebeler. would that have been pavel? mr. gregory. i think. i just remember something about him, about him being a general's son or a colonel's son. mr. liebeler. do you remember his last name? mr. gregory. no. mr. liebeler. do you think you would remember it if i mention it to you? mr. gregory. there is a possibility. i believe they let me read one letter which was harmless. there was no--i mean it was a personal letter. maybe i would. mr. liebeler. g-o-l-a-c-h-e-v [spelling], would that be the name? mr. gregory. it might be. to tell you the truth, the first name pavel, i am fairly sure of the pavel part. mr. liebeler. yes; i think that is correct. mr. gregory. that is the only name i remember. mr. liebeler. you don't remember the name of this other fellow? mr. gregory. no. mr. liebeler. did oswald let you read any letters other than the one you just mentioned? mr. gregory. no. it may have just arrived or he was explaining something about how you address a letter differently. how you put where it is going at the top, and the return at the bottom. he was showing me something, and as i recall, i read the letter, but it was just personal matters. i can't even remember the contents. mr. liebeler. you have no recollection of the contents of the letter at this point? mr. gregory. no. mr. liebeler. was there anything in it, as far as you can remember, that would indicate that it was secretive or anything of that sort? mr. gregory. no. mr. liebeler. on this question of whether oswald thought that possibly he was treated less favorably than other soviet citizens, there has been some testimony that he perhaps felt disenchanted with the soviet union because he was not given the kind of job that he expected to be given when he got there. mr. gregory. yes; i remember something now. he expected--i think he and i got along well because he considered me fairly smart because i was interested in the soviet matters, and therefore our discussions were quite a bit about academic matters, and he pretended, or possibly was, fairly well educated. he seemed to read quite a bit. but he expected to go over there and get into a russian university. he made an application for the peace university or one of these universities for the foreign students, i think, and he was quite disenchanted when he was not accepted into this. that was his first idea, i believe, to go over there and go to school. then after he was not accepted, they sent him somewhere to work in a little factory, and i guess he didn't quite like this. mr. liebeler. did he tell you that one of the reasons he had gone to russia was to enter college or university there? mr. gregory. i don't know as that was one of his reasons for going, but that seemed to me, according to him, the first thing he did was make this application. mr. liebeler. did he ever mention to you anything about an application to the albert schweitzer college in switzerland? did he indicate to you in any other way that he was dissatisfied with the treatment he had received by russian authorities? mr. gregory. well, there was. he said when he wanted to return, it was touch and go whether marina would get to come back with him, and he felt that she had been discriminated against, because he told about meetings which they had held in the factory or place where marina worked denouncing her as a traitor, et cetera, because she wanted to leave the country. and i think this went on for weeks and weeks where they put pressure on her not to go with him, and he expressed amazement for the fact that they did allow her to return with him. mr. liebeler. do you remember any more of the details about what he said about that? mr. gregory. about these meetings? mr. liebeler. about the meetings and his expression of amazement as to why they did let marina come back. mr. gregory. i think he said something about it was just an accident where maybe out of just happens to get through where they allow it. he seemed to think there was no special reason that they let her go. it was more or less an accident. mr. liebeler. did he say that to you? mr. gregory. or an exception, yes, as i remember. mr. liebeler. so that he indicated to you his surprise that marina had been permitted to leave the soviet union with him? mr. gregory. yes. mr. liebeler. he explained it basically in terms of an accident or something that he couldn't readily explain? mr. gregory. yes. mr. liebeler. did he offer as a suggestion as to why they had permitted marina to come back anything to the effect that it was a time of reduced tension between the soviet union and the united states? mr. gregory. not that i can remember. mr. liebeler. can you remember anything else that he said about the subject of marina being able to come back with him? mr. gregory. no. marina spoke of it as being a very horrible time with all her friends putting pressure on her, and it was very unpleasant for her. mr. liebeler. did she indicate that she had had any nervous difficulties as a result of this? mr. gregory. no. mr. liebeler. did you learn at any time from either of the oswalds that marina had gone to the hospital as the result of the pressure that was put upon her by her friends? mr. gregory. no; i did not. mr. liebeler. did she mention to you, or either of them mention to you, that marina went to kharkov on a vacation at one time? mr. gregory. no; i asked them about travel that each of them had done in the soviet union, and the only other place that they mentioned as having been, or one of them as having been, was leningrad, which was the city where marina received her training as a pharmacist. and i don't know if lee had gone to leningrad or not. of course, lee would always tell me about his trips to moscow and his trips to the mausoleum, and going to all the museums and factories. he seemed to speak as if he were a regular tourist then, because they assigned him an interpreter, and evidently he paid the regular tourist fee. mr. liebeler. did he tell you when this was? mr. gregory. no; he may have told me. i am sure it was in winter, because he said--no, i am not sure. put this down as something i don't remember well, but i think that he said that it was cold and that the russians let him get up to the first line because he was an american. it could have been someone else, because i have had several friends that--i can't remember if that was lee or not. when he did speak of, i believe when we were having our conversations was after--i can't remember when the de-stalinization was, when they took stalin out of the mausoleum, but it happened before lee came back, and i asked him about that. that was another thing he seemed to get quite a laugh out of. he looked at it very skeptically and thought the russians should be laughed at for doing things like this, where the street signs would change overnight and no one would mention stalin's name any more, and he thought it was highly comical. i am saying this to show that, in my opinion, he wasn't--never mind. mr. liebeler. no; i would like to hear your remarks. mr. gregory. well, i don't know how to put it. in other words, he looked at things critically over there. he was not one who would say khrushchev said this, therefore it is right. he always was more or less critically observant of everything he saw over there. mr. liebeler. when you say critically, you mean, as i understand now your use of the word, he attempted to observe things objectively and perceptively? he just didn't follow things because somebody handed it out? mr. gregory. yes. mr. liebeler. you don't mean to use the words in the sense that he was just complaining about things, do you? mr. gregory. i could say you can use it in both senses. my main point was that if khrushchev says this, well, any good party man or anyone who would be a conformist, if khrushchev says that is fine, he was not that type. he always expressed a great admiration for khrushchev. he seemed to think he was quite a brilliant man. and he said you cannot read a speech of khrushchev's without liking the man. he said he was a very rough man, a very crude man, but he thought of him as a very brilliant man and very able leader. mr. liebeler. can you remember anything else that he might have said about him, mr. khrushchev? mr. gregory. well, he might have spoken of him several times, but that was the general idea. and while we were on khrushchev, whenever he would speak about khrushchev, kennedy would naturally come into mind, and he expressed admiration of kennedy. both he and marina would say, "nice young man." i never heard him say anything derogatory about kennedy. he seemed to admire the man, because i remember they had a copy of life magazine which was always in their living room, and it had kennedy's picture on it, or i believe kennedy or someone else, and he always expressed what i would interpret as admiration for kennedy. mr. liebeler. can you recall any specific details concerning his remarks about kennedy or the conversation that you had with him concerning kennedy? mr. gregory. no; just that one time, as i can remember in their apartment that we did look at this picture of kennedy, and marina said, "he looks like a nice young man." and lee said something, yes, he is a good leader, or something, as i remember, was a positive remark about kennedy. mr. liebeler. he never expressed any adverse feelings or made any adverse remarks about president kennedy in your presence? mr. gregory. no. mr. liebeler. did you ever hear of him making any such remarks in the presence of anyone else? mr. gregory. no. mr. liebeler. did he ever mention governor connally? mr. gregory. no. mr. liebeler. did you ever hear through any other source that he made any remarks about governor connally? mr. gregory. no, sir. mr. liebeler. as far as marina was concerned, you indicated that she too expressed a kindly feeling or a good feeling toward president kennedy? mr. gregory. yes. mr. liebeler. would that indicate to you that oswald had probably indicated such feelings to her, since she was not able to read english or understand english? mr. gregory. no. mr. liebeler. or didn't you think about that? mr. gregory. i didn't think about it, and would not think that would be true. i couldn't answer the question. mr. liebeler. did you form any opinion of marina's ability to speak english during the time you knew her? mr. gregory. very poor. she knew two or three words. mr. liebeler. was that true throughout the entire time you knew her? mr. gregory. yes; the very last time i ever saw her was at robert oswald's house and all she could say was "excuse me," because she would go sit in the corner while everyone else ate. mr. liebeler. while everybody else what? mr. gregory. ate. mr. liebeler. she didn't eat with you when she was sitting in the corner and all the other relatives were sitting around the dinner table? mr. gregory. yes; evidently she had eaten before i got there, just in time to take them by, but every time i would go over i would ask, "what have you learned in english," and she would always say, "i haven't learned a thing." i personally gave her some vocabulary which i had used to study russian, which she could use in the reverse manner to study english words and i assumed that would help her. i don't know if she used them. mr. liebeler. did you ever think that marina was deceptive as to the extent to which she could understand english? mr. gregory. no; i don't believe so. well, she never spoke english with me, or never attempted to speak english. she would say, "how do you do," something like that. mr. liebeler. what about oswald's proficiency in russian? mr. gregory. he spoke a very ungrammatical russian with a very strong accent. mr. liebeler. what kind of accent? mr. gregory. well, i can't tell you, because i am not that much of a judge. you would have to ask an expert about that. it was this poorly spoken russian, but he was completely fluent. he understood more than i did and he could express any idea, i believe, that he wanted to in russian. but it was heavily pronounced and he made all kinds of grammatical errors, and marina would correct him, and he would get peeved at her for doing this. she would say you are supposed to say like this, and he would wave his hand and say, "don't bother me." mr. liebeler. he indicated that he didn't care to have marina correct him as far as his use of the russian language was concerned? mr. gregory. yes. mr. liebeler. did you ever have any discussion with them as to why marina did not learn english? mr. gregory. i said i thought it was kind of strange that she was not picking up anything, but her expression was that she had to stay home and she had no opportunity to speak. i did not observe any obvious attempts on lee's part to hold back her english, but i guess there was an attempt since he would not help her himself. evidently he didn't help her. i knew that later on george bouhe tried to teach her english. he would send her lessons and she would send them back and he would correct them. i don't know to what extent these lessons went on, but these lessons started after i had gone away to school. mr. liebeler. did you ever have any opportunity to judge oswald's ability to write the russian language? you mentioned that you had seen this one letter. did you notice any misspelled words in it? mr. gregory. no; i did not see any letter that he had written. mr. liebeler. this was a letter that he had received? mr. gregory. i couldn't say at all. i imagine he would have quite a bit of difficulty, because i don't think he had any understanding of the grammar. mr. liebeler. did you think that his proficiency in russian was particularly good, or about average for the length of time he had been in the soviet union? mr. gregory. i couldn't judge. all i think is, he was fluent and he could read well in russian. probably he did have a better grammatical knowledge than i thought, because of all of the reading which i saw him do, excepting for a few books, was in russian. i mean, if he would sit down to read a book, he would be reading in russian. mr. liebeler. how much did he read? mr. gregory. i couldn't say. he was always going down to the library and coming back with all kinds of books. usually he would not read in my presence, because we would all sit around and talk. toward the end, i was writing a paper and i needed marina's help to correct the grammar, and we would go over to one side and work on that, and he would sit and read. he read lenin. i can't remember which book it was, but that is the only thing i have really seen him read. and then he always spoke about his, he said, this great love of history. mr. liebeler. did you ever see him read any books other than this book about lenin? mr. gregory. no; it was not about, it was lenin writings, and lenin was all. mr. liebeler. do you remember the name of any books that oswald brought home from the library that you saw in his apartment? mr. gregory. i can't remember. it would have been nothing extremely interesting. i can't give any titles. mr. liebeler. did you ever discuss with him the nature of his love of the study of history? mr. gregory. no; i always--my opinion of him was that he was not very smart. i thought maybe he would read a lot, but not absorb it. that was my opinion of him. he just said he always had this love of history, and he several times--one evening he went out to tcu and another time he went out to get the catalog for arlington state to try to get some night school or something, and this evidently was a pure dream on his part, seeing he did not have the high school degree. and he always spoke that he wanted to go back to school and get a degree and study economics and history and philosophy and things like that. mr. liebeler. he went out to tcu? did he tell you that he went out to tcu? mr. gregory. yes. mr. liebeler. for what purpose, did he tell you? mr. gregory. to look for night school. mr. liebeler. do you remember approximately when that was? mr. gregory. it was the first time i ever went over there to have a lesson, he was gone. and he returned after, say, minutes. he said he was at tcu, and he had a schedule of their classes. and another time i took and i would take them out to look at the town. one night we went to tcu, and he asked me, do you think the director of the evening classes or some official, if they would be in at this hour, because he wanted to go see, and i said, "no; i am sure no one will be there." mr. liebeler. did he ever tell you that he talked to any of the officials at tcu concerning the night school program? mr. gregory. no; he evidently must have talked to someone if he came back with a schedule, because i remember looking at the schedule. mr. liebeler. did he come back with the schedule before or after the occasion on which you were driving in your car to tcu? mr. gregory. no; it seems the first evening i went over there he referred to the schedule. mr. liebeler. so, it was after that that he asked you during your drive whether you thought anybody would be present at tcu? mr. gregory. yes. mr. liebeler. your first russian lesson was approximately when? mr. gregory. i would say august . i would hit it within a week either way. all this time i thought he had his high school degree and i was encouraging him to go back. i said, "why don't you?" and he used as an excuse that he had to work. and he never did tell me that he did not finish high school. mr. liebeler. going back to the statements that he may have made about his activities in russia, did he ever indicate to you in any way that he had a source of income in the soviet union other than the income he received from his job at the factory? mr. gregory. no; he never did. he always spoke as if he didn't have enough money over there but he never indicated another source of income. mr. liebeler. did he tell you how much he was paid for his work at the factory? mr. gregory. he told, but i don't remember. mr. liebeler. can you remember any discussions about his source of income and what he did with it? i know you cannot specifically remember the amount that he was paid. mr. gregory. no; the only discussion as to how he spent his money was the tremendous difficulty he had buying food and buying enough food. it seems to me as if the way he spoke, he spent all the money on food and he had several articles of clothing which he brought back with him, of which he seemed to be very proud. i think he had a pair of boots or something like that, and he had a closet full of junk. mr. liebeler. did he ever show you his boots? mr. gregory. i think so. mr. liebeler. do you remember anything about them? mr. gregory. i am not positive about the boots. i remember he had one article of clothing which he showed me; said it was made in the soviet union, and he seemed to be proud of it. as i remember, it was boots. mr. liebeler. you have no other recollection about it than what you have just expressed? mr. gregory. no; i think a lot of his clothes were from the soviet union, but i can't identify the articles. mr. liebeler. did he ever mention anything about assistance he might have received from the red cross while he was in the soviet union? mr. gregory. no; the only financial spot which he mentioned to me was the money he got through the u.s. ambassador to russia. mr. liebeler. what did he tell you about that? mr. gregory. he just said he went in and told them he wanted to return, and the fellow gave him something like $ . and then after that, he spoke of his trip back. he went through poland and east germany. mr. liebeler. did he tell you that he had stayed for a time in moscow before leaving the soviet union to return? mr. gregory. the only time i know of his being in moscow was when he was there at the very first as a tourist, and that is the only time i heard him mention being in moscow. mr. liebeler. did he tell you anything about any difficulties that he encountered in obtaining the necessary papers for him and marina to return to the united states? mr. gregory. the only difficulties which i have heard are the difficulties i have already brought up about the pressure put on marina. but as far as paperwork, i can't bring anything out specifically. mr. liebeler. he never mentioned any difficulty that he encountered with the u.s. authorities in that regard? mr. gregory. no. mr. liebeler. did you form an impression as to the feeling he had about the u.s. officials concerning his return? mr. gregory. he mentioned that they had given this money to return. mr. liebeler. i thought you mentioned that he told you they had loaned him money to return? mr. gregory. yes; i am saying he never expressed an opinion one way or the other. it seems to me that normally a person in that situation would say he was very glad they gave him the money. he seemed to expect this money as if it was something that was due him, and he never expressed any gratitude toward the ambassador or whoever it was that gave him the money. mr. liebeler. did he express any resentment toward any of the government officials concerning his return? mr. gregory. completely neutral. mr. liebeler. did he tell you whether or not he returned the money to the state department? mr. gregory. no; he never told me. mr. liebeler. did you form any opinion either from your discussions with oswald as to whether or not oswald was well liked in the soviet union, and accepted by the people in the community in which he lived? mr. gregory. as i said before, it seems to me as he was treated as an outsider, and the only two people i ever heard him speak of were the two i mentioned besides marina. evidently marina was a special case, that she did pay attention to him. he evidently must have been fairly militant over there, or fairly, could i say not friendly, because he told me of one instance where the fellows at the factory were studying night course in english or something, and they came to him and wanted him to help them, and he helped them once or twice, but then he came to the conclusion they were lazy and he threw them out and told them he didn't want to help them any more. evidently, he wasn't too friendly over there, so i doubt if he had too many acquaintances. mr. liebeler. is that all he told you about the incident when the fellow factory workers were trying to learn english? mr. gregory. yes; and i think one fellow, pavel, he came to lee to help him with his english and he said this fellow was a good student, and he evidently gave him quite a bit of help. mr. liebeler. lee gave quite a bit of help to pavel and pavel was trying to learn english? mr. gregory. yes; but the other fellows he thought were lazy and refused to pay attention. mr. liebeler. did he indicate whether pavel gave him any assistance in learning russian? mr. gregory. no. mr. liebeler. or whether he received any other training in the russian language while he was in the soviet union? mr. gregory. the only thing he said he learned in the factory when he went over there, he said he didn't know anything, and when they just stuck him in a factory, he said he picked it up there, and marina helped him quite a bit. marina told me that lee's russian when i was with him was bad compared to the russian lee spoke while he was in the soviet union. in fact, i have lee's dictionary which he gave me. he gave me his russian dictionary and he told me, "i don't need it any more," and therefore he gave me the dictionary. mr. liebeler. you have that at the present time? mr. gregory. yes. mr. liebeler. where is that, in norman? mr. gregory. in norman; yes. mr. liebeler. i wonder if you would make that available to us? mr. gregory. yes; i looked through it to see if there is any writing and there is no writing. there is something, he wrote a name up there or something. mr. liebeler. if you would make it available to us, we would appreciate it. we will have somebody from the secret service or fbi contact you in norman and obtain it, or if you want to mail it to us at the commission. how do you want to handle it? mr. gregory. either way. mr. liebeler. we will have somebody from the secret service. mr. gregory. i don't know of any writing. mr. liebeler. we will make arrangements for someone to pick it up and we will eventually return it to you. mr. gregory. yes; okay. i have a card also which he sent me, if you are interested, which was written to inform me a change of address to dallas, which was dated on november , approximately, . those are the only two things i have that belonged to him or were from him. mr. liebeler. we would like the card too, if you would make that available. mr. gregory. all right. mr. liebeler. did oswald mention anything to you about hunting trips that he went on while he was in the soviet union? mr. gregory. no. mr. liebeler. did he mention any access that he might have had to firearms? mr. gregory. no. mr. liebeler. did you form any opinion, or did marina tell you anything that would indicate the reason why marina seemed to take a special interest in oswald, or seemed to be a special case, i think you used that terminology? mr. gregory. yes. i could tell you--this is a personal opinion--but evidently she was kind of a rebel or nonconformist herself, and she met quite a bit of opposition because she did see lee. and i am not sure, but i believe her family gave her quite a bit of trouble about that, too. mr. liebeler. can you remember any specific situation that she may have said about that? mr. gregory. all i know is that when she returned--she said she had written her relatives--she had an uncle and aunt and sister, and they refused to answer, and she never received an answer from them. mr. liebeler. now, did you infer from that that they gave her difficulty in connection with her marriage to lee oswald, or that they disapproved her decision to come to the united states? mr. gregory. i assume it was both. it is an assumption on my part. mr. liebeler. marina never indicated specifically any difficulty that she had with her relatives? mr. gregory. no. mr. liebeler. did you form any opinion, or did marina ever indicate to you that possibly she married oswald to get out of the soviet union? mr. gregory. no; i don't believe so. mr. liebeler. and you never formed that opinion? mr. gregory. i never formed that opinion. she seemed quite interested and quite enthusiastic about a new life in america, and she seemed to me that she wanted to take part in it, but she got over here and it was, she was just in one room and never got out, and she always kept saying, "when i learn english, it will be different." she always expressed a desire to learn english, and, "do you think i will ever be able to learn it?" and i said, "yes." and she seemed quite enthusiastic about america. mr. liebeler. did you think it was strange that she seemed interested to learn english but apparently made no attempt to learn it? did you discuss that with her at all? mr. gregory. yes; i would always ask her, "what have you learned," and she would say "nothing." and i said, "well--" we really never went into it completely why she hadn't. i just assumed that either she didn't want to or else she really didn't have the opportunity to get out, or i can't answer specifically. mr. liebeler. she never indicated a desire to you that you should help her learn english in connection with her attempt to teach you russian or to improve your russian? mr. gregory. no. mr. liebeler. did you ever discuss with oswald the reason, or with marina, for that matter, the reason why oswald decided to leave the soviet union and return to the united states? mr. gregory. well, let's see, i have brought up why he was dissatisfied. well, of course, he didn't get enough food. that seemed to be one of his major things. and evidently he lived fairly poorly over there. then i am sure he went over there thinking this would be the heaven on earth, the workers' paradise, and he quickly found out that wasn't so. this might be a personal judgment on my part, but i think he felt that they are making a mess of things over there. maybe he did believe in communistic principles which i don't believe he understood if he believed in them. but he felt that the present administration like the party boys and the people in power were just making a mess of things, that they didn't know what they were doing. he felt like, he said they were opportunistic. no; he never came out and said, "i left because so-and-so and so-and-so." mr. liebeler. did he ever indicate a desire to have his children raised in the united states? mr. gregory. i can't remember if he did. mr. liebeler. you told us a moment ago that oswald at one point told you how he had left the soviet union and gone through poland and east germany. i would like you to tell us everything you can remember about that. mr. gregory. i really can't remember anything specifically. i just asked him how he came out, and he said he was on the train, and something or other happened in poland, i didn't quite understand it, where there was some incident in poland where they bought something, or some person sold them something black market and--i can't remember it, but they never gave me a travellogue of their trip out of the soviet union. mr. liebeler. did he tell you that he eventually went to some point in holland and boarded a ship and came back to new york? mr. gregory. he did. mr. liebeler. do you have any recollection about that other than what i have just stated? mr. gregory. no. mr. liebeler. did he tell you how he got from his landing point in the united states to texas? mr. gregory. no. mr. liebeler. did he tell you where he landed in the united states? mr. gregory. no. mr. liebeler. do you know that now? mr. gregory. no. mr. liebeler. did he ever indicate any dissatisfaction with the conditions here in the united states other than the ones that you previously indicated that he expressed? that is, that everyone seemed to be concerned about making money? did he ever indicate that he thought particular institutions ought to be changed in any way? mr. gregory. no; his only objection that he ever voiced to me was about the money everyone was out for themselves, and evidently he never had much money, and i guess he felt persecuted on account of this. i remember one evening i gave him a tour of the town, and i took them to, you know, drove by all the big mansions. i figured they would be interested in seeing that, and it seems like there if he would really have any strong feelings, they would have come out then. he said something about how horrible it is that here people are living in these big mansions, and i think just before that we had seen a bad part of town where the colored people lived, but he made no comment there. i think he just said, "well, i never want to be rich like that." mr. liebeler. he indicated no particular animosity toward people of wealth and position? mr. gregory. no. mr. liebeler. going back to his experience in the soviet union, did he ever tell you that he had ever been in the hospital there? mr. gregory. no. mr. liebeler. did he tell you any of the details about his marriage to marina, as to any difficulties they experienced in getting permission to become married, or anything of that nature? mr. gregory. no; i don't think so. as i remember, it happened quite fast. i believe they were married or weeks after they met. mr. liebeler. can you think of anything else that he ever told you about his experiences in the soviet union that we haven't already covered? mr. gregory. not at the moment. mr. liebeler. did oswald ever discuss any subject concerning russian military movements or the presence of troops, concentration of equipment, aircraft and that sort of thing? mr. gregory. no. mr. liebeler. never mentioned it at all? mr. gregory. no. mr. liebeler. you told us before that you held a bachelor degree from oklahoma university and that you majored in economics? mr. gregory. yes. mr. liebeler. did you ever discuss economics with oswald? mr. gregory. i never discussed it with him because i don't think he knew anything about it. mr. liebeler. did the subject ever come up between you? mr. gregory. he would always say that is my great love, history and economics. mr. liebeler. what did he say about it? i am interested in this, because i gained the impression from others that he didn't know very much about it. in my opinion you probably do know more about it than most of the men that i talked to, so i would like to have you tell us as much as you can. mr. gregory. he never said anything, and that is the reason i got the impression he didn't know anything about it, because if he knew, he would want to talk about it. i never approached the subject because he seemed to not want to get into it. i thought from an interview with him, when they were having all this on tv, that they asked him a question, something about comparative economics, and he gave some kind of stupid answer and more or less confirmed my opinion that he didn't know too much about it. but we never did have a specific discussion about economics. mr. liebeler. did you ever discuss with oswald any contacts between him and agents of the soviet government in connection with any attempt on their part to recruit him as an intelligence agent or as open activity of the soviet union? mr. gregory. no. mr. liebeler. did you ever discuss it with anybody else? mr. gregory. no. mr. liebeler. did it ever occur to you that oswald might be an agent of the soviet union? mr. gregory. no; i was always fairly positive that he wasn't, because i figured that if the soviets wanted to get someone, they could get someone a lot more reliable. they would have a lot more sense than to get him, because i think he was, personally had a bad temper, i think. mr. liebeler. what makes you say that? mr. gregory. well, he would always, he never really didn't get mad, but he would--i never did figure out if he and marina were arguing or just talking, but he would always shout, and i remember one evening that we went out, were going to the grocery store, and marina had june in her arms and she stepped over and fell off the porch, and boy he got mad. you know, the baby fell on the ground. he really got mad. and that was the only time i ever saw him real mad. i guess maybe he had reason to be mad, because marina had dropped the child. mr. liebeler. did she fall out of her arms? mr. gregory. they both fell. she hurt her back. i thought she had. mr. liebeler. what did he do? mr. gregory. he went over and picked up the baby. mr. liebeler. then what did he say? mr. gregory. he got real mad, and then they ran in and they had the medical book written in russian about baby care, and they went through it and i think the baby had a cut on its head, and marina had a cut on her knee or something, and everything quieted down and we went out again, but it was a real hot moment. mr. liebeler. other than the fact that you noted, is there any other reason why you said you thought he had a bad temper? mr. gregory. i heard afterward, after the last time i saw him, i heard reports about him beating her, from the dallas acquaintances. mr. liebeler. you never saw any evidence of that yourself? mr. gregory. no. one time i went over and she had a black eye. at this time i had no suspicion, that--but possibly i never asked her where did you get the black eye. mr. liebeler. and you never had any reason to think that---- mr. gregory. no. mr. liebeler. that he had been mistreating her, based on your own experience? mr. gregory. later when i heard about this in dallas, well i thought maybe it could have happened back there then. mr. liebeler. are there any other reasons on which you base your opinion that he had a bad temper? mr. gregory. no, just personal judgment. he seemed to be a small person that is always ready to flare up. we always had very good relations. we were very friendly. mr. liebeler. other than the fact that you think he had a bad temper, is there any other reason why you think the soviets would not recruit him as an agent? mr. gregory. as i say again, i don't think he was very smart. mr. liebeler. are there any other reasons? mr. gregory. no. then, of course, his animosity which he expressed toward the soviet. mr. liebeler. towards the members of the communist party? mr. gregory. yes. he didn't quite enjoy life over there, and it just didn't enter my mind that he could have been. mr. liebeler. did it ever enter your mind? mr. gregory. no. mr. liebeler. it is only after the assassination that you considered this question; is that correct? mr. gregory. even then i never considered it seriously. mr. liebeler. but my question is: when did you consider it at all? mr. gregory. only after, yes. mr. liebeler. after? mr. gregory. yes. i think this might be important. more or less his philosophy, which i think came out, is that at the time i was interested in going and studying in the soviet union in our exchange program. we have an exchange where our university sends over students and they send over to ours, and i was interested in seeing how it was, how life would be, see if it would be too hard, and he says, he told me, "just go over there. don't get on a waiting list. you will never get there." he said, "if you want to do something, go ahead and do it. you will get involved in red tape." and i think that was possibly the way he thought about everything. mr. liebeler. did you ever form an impression of oswald, based on your association with him, form an opinion prior to the time of the assassination that he was mentally unstable, too, in any way? mr. gregory. no. mr. liebeler. you did not? he did not appear to be that to you? mr. gregory. let's say, i wouldn't classify him as--evidently he was, but at the time i didn't think he was. i just thought he was, as i say, fairly hot tempered and not extremely brilliant. but i never did think of him as mentally deranged. maybe i saw him mixed up. he must have been mixed up to do what he did, as far as the assassination, but just going over to the soviet union---- mr. liebeler. did you consider this question prior to the assassination? the question is, tell us in your own words what opinion you formed of oswald and what you thought about him at the time you knew him in ? mr. gregory. i never minded him. i always enjoyed being with him. i enjoyed marina more than lee. she was a very pleasant person, very pleasant to be with, interesting. i can't say that i disliked lee. he had bad qualities, but i mean, when we were together, i think he more or less put on his best front, because i think he considered me someone he could talk to. because i think he considered other people beneath him, and he thought that everyone was judging him. i think he felt that his brother--this is a personal opinion--that they were sort of taking him in out of the goodness of their hearts. and i never expressed any judgment on it or even asked him or faced the matter as to why he had done what he did. therefore, our relations were always good. but still i classified him as hot tempered, not very smart, and slightly mixed up. and i am sure about a good many other examples, but i am not a psychiatrist or psychologist. mr. liebeler. when you are saying not very smart, are you talking about what your impression of what his intelligence or what his level of education? mr. gregory. i am thinking of academic sense, inability to grasp things. mr. liebeler. basically a function of his iq rather than his formal education? mr. gregory. yes. mr. liebeler. were you ever interested in his formal education, or make any inquiries on that? mr. gregory. yes; i was interested in it as to whether he finished high school, and that he had expressed to me desire to go on in higher education. mr. liebeler. we have already covered that. mr. gregory. yes. mr. liebeler. did he ever indicate to you, or did you ever form the opinion, that he was capable of violent acts? mr. gregory. no; i didn't think he was. i would say maybe i could only picture him getting into a fight or something. judging from the type of person he was, if someone would insult him, i think he would get into a fight, but as far as the major violent act, i couldn't picture him doing. mr. liebeler. did you consider that question prior to the time of the assassination? mr. gregory. no. mr. liebeler. it just never occurred to you? mr. gregory. no. just an automatic judgment like i make, a general judgment about all people, i figured he was the type person, if you go downtown with him and someone would say, would insult him, he would probably get into a fight or something like that. that is just my general judgment of him. he never did in my presence, or nothing ever happened. it is just a general judgment. mr. liebeler. the kind of judgment you would make about many people, is it not? mr. gregory. yes. mr. liebeler. there never was anything peculiar about oswald that caused you to form a peculiar judgment about him or think he was peculiar in any way? mr. gregory. no. mr. liebeler. but he was the kind that easily flared up, although he never did it in your presence, he was the type that would, and you did think that about oswald? mr. gregory. yes. but as far as any violence, i couldn't picture him. mr. liebeler. did oswald ever indicate to you that the world situation was not due to the people in the world, but was caused by the leaders in the various countries? mr. gregory. i think so. once or twice he made that exact statement, and i can't remember if it was marina or lee. that is the exact words. mr. liebeler. was that translated into any animosity against the leaders of the two countries, either khrushchev or kennedy? mr. gregory. i could not say. i would not think so, because of what i have already said about the fact that lee had expressed admiration of khrushchev and had expressed that positive feeling toward kennedy. mr. liebeler. now that i have called to your attention and you recall that either lee or marina did make a remark about the world troubles being caused by the leaders and not the people, does that cause you to reflect on your prior testimony? mr. gregory. no; i don't think so. there was no animosity in the statement. it was more or less---- mr. liebeler. philosophical opposition--no personal animosity expressed at all? mr. gregory. no; no such animosity. mr. liebeler. do you know of any connection between lee oswald and jack ruby? mr. gregory. no. mr. liebeler. did you have any knowledge of oswald's drinking habits, as far as alcoholic beverages are concerned? mr. gregory. he never drank in my presence. mr. liebeler. do you know whether or not oswald was interested in any other women during the time that you knew him? mr. gregory. no. mr. liebeler. did you ever hear that he was? mr. gregory. no. mr. liebeler. did he ever express an interest in guns to you? mr. gregory. no. mr. liebeler. did you ever observe any firearms in his presence? mr. gregory. no. mr. liebeler. or in his possession? mr. gregory. no. mr. liebeler. or discuss the subject of firearms? mr. gregory. no. mr. liebeler. during these lessons that you received from marina in the russian language, was oswald usually present or usually absent? mr. gregory. usually present. in fact, he was always there. the first time i was ever over was the time that he was away somewhere, and he came back, say, minutes after the lesson started. mr. liebeler. that was the time he had been to tcu? mr. gregory. yes. mr. liebeler. did you ever hear of any attempt on oswald's part to commit suicide? mr. gregory. no. mr. liebeler. the same question as to marina? mr. gregory. no. mr. liebeler. do you know james martin? mr. gregory. no. mr. liebeler. you never met james martin at any time? mr. gregory. no. mr. liebeler. did you meet him in oklahoma? mr. gregory. no; i never met him in oklahoma. mr. liebeler. do you know anyone by the name of james martin? mr. gregory. the only persons i ever met in lee's presence are his brother, and thanksgiving when i went to pick him up there was another half brother and his wife. mr. liebeler. the name was pic, was it not? mr. gregory. yes. i learned that after the assassination. mr. liebeler. after the assassination did you learn that there was a man by the name of james martin who became marina's business manager? mr. gregory. i believe i read the name in the paper. mr. liebeler. but you never met him either in fort worth or norman or any other place? mr. gregory. never heard of him. mr. liebeler. just never met him--any individual, who appeared to be marina's business agent, whether or not his name was james martin or anything else? mr. gregory. no. mr. liebeler. did you have any conversation with lee or marina about marguerite oswald? mr. gregory. no. he never mentioned the fact that he even had a mother. mr. liebeler. did you ever observe lee oswald driving an automobile? mr. gregory. no. i asked him if he could drive. he said, "yes." but if we ever went anywhere, i drove. mr. liebeler. do you remember anything more about that? was that just a simple statement? mr. gregory. i just simply said, "do you know how to drive?" and he said, "yes." mr. liebeler. when did you ask him that? mr. gregory. i don't remember whether we were going out to some grocery store or something like that. mr. liebeler. but you never saw him drive a car? mr. gregory. no. he would walk great distances without thinking about it. i mean, what is in our estimation a great distance. and then he rode the bus quite a bit. but i never saw him drive a car or heard of him driving a car. mr. liebeler. were you surprised when you learned that oswald had been arrested in connection with the assassination? mr. gregory. very. mr. liebeler. would you tell us something about your state of mind at that time? mr. gregory. well, my first impression was, i saw him on television when they first brought him in, and they didn't mention his name. and later they said the first suspect being brought in is lee oswald. i felt sure he had not done it. i felt that they probably brought him in because of his record in the soviet union and thought maybe he would be a likely person, but i did not think he had done it. the only time i decided he may have done it was when the secret service talked to me and said the evidence looked---- mr. liebeler. talked to you? mr. gregory. yes; it was on a saturday after the assassination, and said it looked like he was the one. and my--i more or less reoriented my thinking that he was the one. mr. liebeler. who from the secret service talked to you; do you remember? mr. gregory. i can't remember. real nice fellow. oklahoma city. mr. liebeler. mr. nielsen? mr. gregory. i think that was it. mr. liebeler. did he outline the evidence to you relating to oswald's alleged guilt? mr. gregory. no; he just said something that, i think something came over the radio that the chief of police said he was the one, and then he made a phone call and he said it looked like he was the one, or something like that. something that he identified the gun or, i can't remember the exact words. mr. liebeler. do you remember any organizations of which lee oswald was a member during the time you knew him? mr. gregory. no. mr. liebeler. did you ever hear of any organizations to which he belonged? mr. gregory. no. mr. liebeler. do you know of the names of any people with whom he associated? mr. gregory. no; besides his brother and myself. that is it. oh, then the dallas russians who i have mentioned. mr. liebeler. do you know a gentleman by the name of gary taylor? mr. gregory. no. mr. liebeler. do you know george de mohrenschildt? mr. gregory. i think i heard my father mention the name de mohrenschildt. i think he is from dallas. mr. liebeler. but you do not know him personally, however? mr. gregory. no. mr. liebeler. i have no further questions. if there is anything that you would like to add to the record, we would like to have you do it. if there is anything you think i should have asked you about that i haven't, i would like to have you mention it and we will put it on the record now. mr. gregory. no; i think you have covered it. mr. liebeler. in that case, we will terminate the deposition. i want to thank you very much, mr. gregory, for driving all the way from norman to dallas to give us your testimony. the commission appreciates it very much. testimony of mrs. helen leslie the testimony of mrs. helen leslie was taken at : p.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. albert e. jenner, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. robert t. davis, assistant attorney general of texas, was present. mr. jenner. this is mrs. helen leslie of hanover street, fort worth, tex. mrs. leslie. not fort worth--dallas, tex. mr. jenner. mrs. leslie, would you stand and hold up your hand, please? mrs. leslie. oh, yes. mr. jenner. do you solemnly swear that in the testimony you are about to give you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? mrs. leslie. yes. mr. jenner. mrs. leslie, i am albert e. jenner, jr., and i am a member of the legal staff of the warren commission. the warren commission was created pursuant to a senate joint resolution creating the commission to investigate the assassination of the late president, john fitzgerald kennedy. mrs. leslie. yes, i know what it is. mr. jenner. and all the circumstances surrounding it. pursuant to that legislation, president lyndon b. johnson appointed the commission, of which the honorable earl warren, chief justice of the united states, is chairman. mrs. leslie. yes. mr. jenner. and that commission has the assignment i have indicated to you in the legislation. we are seeking on behalf of the commission to inquire into all pertinent facts and circumstances relating to that assassination, and particularly to people who might or could have had any contact with or knowledge of one lee harvey oswald and his wife, marina oswald. mrs. leslie. yes, yes. mr. jenner. in the course of some depositions that i have been taking here in dallas, mention was made by some of the witnesses of you. mrs. leslie. yes. mr. jenner. and possibly you might have some information. i do want to assure you that all the references to you were in a complimentary vein and i have sought to have this privilege of talking with you and taking your deposition, because i think perhaps you might be helpful to us. mrs. leslie. i will be glad to--as much as i can. mr. jenner. you just sit back and relax and nothing is going to happen to you. mrs. leslie. i don't think i know very much; actually it is very little. mr. jenner. well, you appear voluntarily. mrs. leslie. yes. now, you want to know if i met the man and his wife? mr. jenner. maybe i can take it by easy steps, if you will let me. mrs. leslie, you live in dallas? mrs. leslie. i live here in dallas. i can start for you from where i was born, how i came here? mr. jenner. all right, do that, will you? mrs. leslie. i am not young girl. i was born in moscow in . this year on april , i will be years old. i came to dallas only years ago. mr. jenner. years ago? mrs. leslie. in --it's only years ago. i am a widow, my husband died in , whom i married--i married in , so i am a widow about years. here in dallas, actually, i was going from florida to california, but my step-daughter, which is a daughter of my husband's first wife, asked me if i wanted to stop here in dallas and maybe we can live together. so, i did and i arrived dallas and i bought a house, so i settled here and on hanover street. it is my own house, in my name, and where i met a few russians here, but deep regret--there was not a real russian church, which i miss very much. it is in english language which certainly is not the same as your own language, the church has to be a russian church on newton street. mr. jenner. on what street? mrs. leslie. on newton street. mr. jenner. is that st. nicholas? mrs. leslie. no, st. seraphim. mr. jenner. the sermon is preached in english, is it not, at st. seraphim? mrs. leslie. in english--father dimitri is preaching there. by the way, father dimitri christened the daughter of this oswald. his wife came there to christen the daughter june, i heard. now, i was introduced to a few russian people here. mr. jenner. when you came here? mrs. leslie. yes; my daughter, she was here, and she is a ballerina and she was visiting dallas a few times and she knew some people here. she is a ballerina--a dancer. she met here many people--mostly connected with ballet, artists, so she introduced me to the voshinins, that's igor and natalia voshinin, and then she introduced me to mr. and mrs. ford. mr. jenner. to mr. and mrs. declan ford? mrs. leslie. declan ford and then to the mellers. mr. jenner. the mellers, m-e-l-l-e-r [spelling]? mrs. leslie. yes; and then george bouhe, and i think there are some russians in fort worth--those fort worth russians--the clarks. mr. jenner. max clark--mr. and mrs. max clark? mrs. leslie. those are all the russians which i knew here. now, i don't remember which year it was, it seemed to me it was in , when george bouhe called me on telephone and told me there was one couple, a young couple came from soviet union and if i am interested to hear something about there, you know, the conditions in soviet union, he invites me to his house to meet them. he invited them and a few russian people all interested in the conditions in the soviet union, which i left in , and never corresponded with my own mother since that, and my own sisters. i don't know what happened to them, but i lost completely all trace of my own blood family. i never wrote them, because i was advised not to contact them, so i went to this george bouhe's apartment. mr. jenner. now, mrs. leslie, the oswalds returned from russia on the th of june . mrs. leslie. --so, it was in . as i said, i am not sure which year it was--it was so long ago. since that i have never seen him--i just have seen them once. mr. jenner. this was a meeting at george bouhe's house? mrs. leslie. at george bouhe's house--where he lives--i could be wrong. mr. jenner. was it during the daytime or the evening? mrs. leslie. no, sir; it was in the daytime, you know, but i don't know exactly--i can't mention what hour it was, but it was in some entertainment, you know, some wine and a few things, and there was this couple with their baby, which was oswald and his wife. mr. jenner. who was there in addition to yourself and mr. bouhe? mrs. leslie. mrs. meller. from there we went to mrs. meller's house for dinner, so i presume it was something-- o'clock or o'clock that we were over at mr. bouhe's place, and then we went to mrs. meller's place for dinner. mr. jenner. and who was present on that occasion? mrs. leslie. there was a few people which i didn't know actually, i tell you--when i was introduced to oswald--i didn't catch his name, his last name. they called them lee and marina, you know, and he didn't impress me very much. mr. jenner. tell us about that. mrs. leslie. yes--he didn't impress me, you know, but the only thing--the only one thing impressed me--he was talking quite fluently russian language. he was making some mistakes, grammar mistakes, in very good russian language, because i was born there and raised there, but he was talking fluently. everything he was talking in russian language, but sometimes he was--he didn't use grammar things or something, he wasn't quite good in grammar. i think he was doing some mistakes, not in pronunciation but in grammar. mr. jenner. what about marina? mrs. leslie. marina impressed me as not so like people was saying--they have an education or something, she was quite wise and she was a pharmacist. i think as i understood after, she was a pharmacist, i think i understood after from some russian, she took course of pharmacy and was working in leningrad as a pharmacist, you know, so i will tell you--this mr. bouhe, he is a very kind man. he always liked to help everybody he can. so, he was born also in--petrograd, before the russian revolution it was, and she was born there, and when he heard she's from his hometown, that's why he took such an interest in this couple. he wanted to help them. now, she impressed me as a wise person, for her age, you know, and she was talking very good russian language, which i rarely ever heard even on television, you know, sometimes when there was some talk of ambassadors. it was a different language they use now--so many new words which i do not recall in our language. she was talking nice russian language and that's all i remember. mr. jenner. did she speak good grammatically? mrs. leslie. yes, she probably finished school, you know, there is a different systems of school and a special course of pharmacy because she knew all terms, the latin terms--something that not many people know, because she was educated in this field. then, we went to dinner and she had the trouble there with her baby, you know, changing diapers and so on like always, but this first baby it was. it wasn't the second baby then. then, i never met them--sometimes i was getting calls--how was this russian couple getting along, and they tried to find for them new work for him--he was not satisfied with what he was doing. i think too little and always not enough money and bouhe was trying to help them financially. mr. jenner. bouhe solicited money from you and others? mrs. leslie. no, i didn't give. he was just helping because he is a quite wealthy man. he is alone and he doesn't have any limitation or anything. he always takes interest in some poor people. he sends money and he is supporting some old people. i do not know exactly which they are and so on. mr. jenner. this interest of mr. bouhe, and this course of conduct that you have related was, as far as you are concerned, there was nothing extraordinary about it, it was something you normally would expect of a man like george bouhe? mrs. leslie. yes, and i will tell you now, even now i do not meet with mr. bouhe and there is a completely different reason why. he is a temperate man, a little bit--he can tell you--insult you sometimes without thinking, and i am a little bit older than he is, a few years, so it was a case which probably will interest you because it was one of the finest things which happens. when i was a child and close with my mother, i saw a photograph of my mother which was taken by some artist that was collecting russian costumes of art, you know, peasant's costumes and her brother was in an academy, he was a painter, and this painter came from london and he wanted to help to make a book about russia as an artist. so, he wanted to take photographs of the girls in these costumes and my mother was pretty, very pretty when she was young. she was then--she was very pretty then, but that was long ago, that was years ago, so they took her photograph in the costume and when i was years old, i sold this photograph to a man, nothing else, you know, just a photographer and i forgot about it, and already being in america, i was living in boston with my husband. i visited one of my friends and she was collecting russian things, embroideries and books and she showed me some books and it was art books and i was looking at those costumes and then i see a portrait of my mother. it was, you know, very big thing for me because being already years out of russia and i find a portrait of my mother in america and it was a very rare case. i was asking this lady to give me the name of this book so i could find it, and she put this book so well on the shelf and after a few years finally, she sends me the name of this book, and when i met mr. bouhe, i told him i would like to buy a book, which is a very old edition, maybe years ago, which now probably they wouldn't make it any more. he said, "that's what i like to do. i like to do everything. i don't have too much to do," and you know, he has nothing much to do and he says that he will find it. finally, he found these two books, one for $ and one for $ . so, i said, "i don't care about the book, i care only about my mother, the picture of my mother. i will pay for it $ ." and, at o'clock in the morning he calls me and he says, "i have this book--or rather it has arrived. which one is portrait of your mother?" there were about portraits of different girls in costumes and how can i tell him which one is my mother and i said, "you bring me book and i will show you. i cannot tell you." and he said, "oh, how can you not tell about your mother, how she looks and so forth?' i said, "i cannot tell you. come and i will show you, and why do you call me at o'clock in the morning. i have to rush to my job and i have no time to talk now." so, he hung up. then, in the evening i found the book in the threshold of the house. so, indeed, after my job i called him on the telephone and i told him, i wanted to thank him for it and ask him, "why didn't you come in the evening so i can show you where is my mother?" and he told me, "i don't want to know you any more. you were so rude to me, you didn't want to tell me which one is your mother so i don't want to know you any more and i am not interested in it." i said, "that's your privilege. i cannot force myself on you, if you don't want to know me." so, that was a break, you know, so since that--it was about more than year i have lost track of it. after this i was not at his house. so, i meet him socially sometimes at mrs. ford's house and shake hands with him, but i not invite him. he says he doesn't want me to know him--he doesn't want to know me, so i do not invite him to my house, he does not invite me to his house; and that's the situation, and i didn't meet him since--since this case, but i have nothing against him, but i was expecting from him some apology. i am an older woman and, after all, he is a man and i am a lady and when he told me he doesn't want to know me, so that's his, you know, duty to excuse me. i was a little bit rough, or something, and that's the end, but he didn't, so i'm stubborn too, so that was the end with mr. bouhe, and i never met him one time, and when i meet him, i say, "hello, how are you," and that's all. mr. jenner. how did these people, lee oswald and marina oswald act toward each other on the occasion when you saw them? mrs. leslie. i will tell you something--i don't know if bouhe told you or others too. when she was out at a place--she had a black eye and she has her tooth out, one tooth was out, so a second man it was raised a question how she had this black eye and so on, and she said, "oh, i hit the kitchen door. the baby was crying and i didn't want to make a light, the door was open and i hit it--the kitchen door." and then, later, i heard from mrs. meller that he beat her, he was beating her, that he was always beating her and everybody was sympathetic with her. frankly now, it is understandable. she was russian, you know, it is some kind of a feeling of a russian toward a russian and they were mad at him and how he could beat his wife--this is not proper--to beat his wife. mr. jenner. well, now, we don't approve of that in america. mrs. leslie. no. all i say now is what other people like mellers and like fords told me that once he beat her so hard and threw her out in the street, so she took her baby as a result in just a little blanket--she didn't know where to go and she came to mellers and she said, "i don't know where to go," that she wasn't talking good english and he wanted to talk russian at home, so she didn't know what to do and the mellers are very nice people, so they took her in their house and she stayed there a few days until they found a place for her. i don't remember, but they said, "oh, the awful things," and they took her--i think, you know, that she was staying with them. i didn't know she was staying with fords. i didn't know when, because i lost trace of her and so that's all i know about oswalds. actually, i didn't see her until when she was on television. mr. jenner. now, i want to ask you about a certain george de mohrenschildt. mrs. leslie. i do not know him very much, he is a friend of my daughter's and he is in haiti. mr. jenner. yes; i know that. mrs. leslie. and he was patronizing oswalds. mr. jenner. what kind of fellow was george de mohrenschildt? mrs. leslie. you know, my daughter is ballerina and so even i have pictures somewhere with her. he was taking her out, you know, courting her. she is a very beautiful girl, my daughter--nattialie krassooska of the stage, and she is a very, very attractive girl and a very prima ballerina many, many years and he was courting her. they were going together, swimming together, and i don't know where--that's why she invited me to come here. she said, "i have here some friends," but when i came, he already married this jeanne. mr. jenner. jeanne? mrs. leslie. she's russian--i don't know her maiden name, jeanne or jane or something in russian, but i could not tell what her maiden name is and he was married four times and she was married, i don't know, a few times, and then they took this trip, a walking trip in south america or somewhere, you know, they walked. mr. jenner. from the mexican border down to panama? mrs. leslie. i don't know exactly, so they was walking and what were the arrangements he made--with some life magazine, or something, but he is a geologist anyway. she took this job in haiti also make geologist, and when i came here he already was married, but it happens like so, once he lost his little boy from another wife and he was very much grieving about this boy, so my daughter, being his friend, she sympathizes with him and wrote him a little letter. she wrote him a letter of sympathy because he lost his little boy and then his wife, jeanne, called my daughter and said that they was not meeting since he was married and she said she would like to meet her and since then, occasionally, we was meeting them at fords and other houses and then once at christmas time she invited them to come to our house, so they were once at our house. now, i didn't know them before and i will tell you something--that what many people were afraid of, his wife is atheist. she doesn't believe in god. mr. jenner. this is mrs. de mohrenschildt? mrs. leslie. yes--his wife, and he wasn't, when he was going with my daughter, which is very religious, he was going to church, even singing in chorus of church. after he married this jeanne he became atheist too, you know, so i don't know--maybe he always is under the influence of somebody, but it is hard to tell, but i cannot judge them. i don't know how to judge the characters that they are, but everybody says, "well, he is under influence of this jeanne." that's all they say about him. mr. jenner. is there anything extraordinary about him in his dress and his attitude? mrs. leslie. you know, after this trip, they are very--they don't like to dress. you can invite them for christmas and he will come in slacks, dirty, and in sweaters, you know, his appearance always shocked me a little bit. you know, when you invite people for dinner, you expect them to be more or less decent dressed, and she, too, and they was saying when they were making this trip to mexico or south america, or i don't know, they was walking in bikinis and practically naked and there was dogs and a mule, and you know, so i don't know what kind of people--whose influence was this and was he the same before or not, i cannot tell. i never was interested in that, in this family, you know, close, so that's all i know about de mohrenschildts. actually, now, it's already a long time, and my daughter doesn't either. the de mohrenschildts are more or less friends with--and i don't know who knows them best, but i think--whether the mellers do or not--i don't know who is friends, but i heard that he took interest in these oswalds and oswalds was in his house many times, but what they was talking about, if he knew about his point of view or if he knew he is a communist, you know, many people was thinking that probably she didn't broke with the soviet union when she left, why he left, you know, why they let him out, you know, but nobody knows, you know, it is so hard to leave from there--his wife and child, why they let them out. mr. davis. did this occur to you? mrs. leslie. it has occurred to everybody--how--he was so poor and bouhe was helping him and he has no decent job and at the same time he took a trip to mexico and he took a trip to new orleans--he was taking these trips--who supplied him with money--nobody knows. you know, that's a thought everybody was thinking--how he went there and how--it's strange things, but nobody can answer these questions. mr. jenner. but the interest of mr. bouhe and the fords and the mellers and the de mohrenschildts and others was an interest growing out of good heartedness? mrs. leslie. i hope so--i think so--i hope so. mostly, you know, i cannot tell about de mohrenschildts. she's russian and he is russian. i don't know--he's from estonia or something, you know, de mohrenschildt. mr. jenner. on the baltic sea? mrs. leslie. yes; but she is russian. now, you know, it is natural that russians wants to meet russians to talk their own language, and not to forget it, so they met them somewhere and invited them to their place, and if they helped them, i don't know, but they met, which i know--they was meeting them--somebody told that the fbi was looking for de mohrenschildt here, and i think they found he was in haiti, and i think in months he will come back and it will all be over, after this is over. probably he will come back into the united states. now, i cannot tell any more. yes--i wanted to tell this--so, when this naturally occurred, i was watching television because president kennedy was coming to dallas and, the man, you know, he was nice, and there was mrs. kennedy, the first lady, and then there was a bullet and a shot and he was shot and later they show a picture of oswald. they presume that it was oswald who is killer, you know, and i look at this oswald, and then they showed marina with the child and i did not recognize her; you know, i have not seen them in a couple of years and i didn't know his last name, the name lee and marina didn't meant to me everything, and then they said "russian born," but didn't occur to me that i met them, and then i went to church on newton street and then there was a friend of mine, igor voshinin and natalia voshinin and she said, "did you hear who killed president kennedy?" i said, "i don't remember his name. they named it on television but i don't remember his name." they said, "it's oswald, you know him." i said, "i know him?" and they said, "but yes; you met him." i said, "well," and then i said, "oh, yes; i met him." and then i stopped to look at the pictures more closely and i recognized him then, but at first even i didn't recognize him, because when you are not expecting--i didn't know his last name and such a common face he has, and such a--you couldn't remember his face very closely--it is just one person you can recognize him, and that's how it happened that i knew him and his wife. oh, i feel so bad; i shaked his hand--i didn't remember if i did or not. i shaked his hand, and i said, "oh, i shaked hands with the killer of the president," and i felt dirty and i touched something i didn't want to touch, you know, but actually i'm very sorry about marina, his wife. i am sorry. mr. jenner. have you seen her since the occasion you met her? mrs. leslie. no, no; i think she is now helped by mr. and mrs. ford. it was correct that they was helping her because she received so much from the donations and money, and somebody took advantage of it and they was providing her money and she could not get for herself anything and they was investing it or something--i don't know the situation, but she is now--they asked her--as russian--to watch over her. i don't know what she does--i never meet with her; i never invited marina oswald to my house and i do not intend to. i just don't want to--i don't know, but, you know, i have such a feeling that it is better to--i don't know, maybe i am wrong and have to be more christian. mr. jenner. well, mrs. leslie, we appreciate very much your coming in, i know, at an inconvenience to you. mrs. leslie. but if i can help with something i want to. mr. jenner. you were helpful to us and we appreciate it very much. mrs. leslie. thank you very much. mr. jenner. miss oliver will write this up and if you wish to read it, you have that liberty and that right to do so, and if you would prefer to do that, we will make your transcript available to you to read. mrs. leslie. yes; you will mail it to me? mr. jenner. if you call in here to mr. barefoot sanders, the u.s. attorney's office, he will have it. mrs. leslie. i have to write his name. mr. jenner. and he will know when your transcript is ready. mrs. leslie. he will call me on the telephone? mr. jenner. you had better call him because there are so many witnesses. call him sometime next week and then you may come in and read it and sign it. mrs. leslie. yes; i will be glad to because everything i told, i told it under oath and it is completely true and i didn't try to hide anything. mr. davis. that's the name and the phone number. mrs. leslie. sir, i will call him and ask him--what i have to ask--is my deposition ready? mr. jenner. if the writeup of your deposition is ready for you to read? mrs. leslie. to read--all right; thank you. mr. jenner. you give him your name and he will tell you. mr. davis. let me give you another name to call since mr. sanders may be hard to get. you might call martha joe stroud, who is an assistant attorney here and she is actually in charge of those, and she might be the one you could reach and she would be at this same number. mrs. leslie. all right; i will do it. mr. davis. i would say about tuesday or wednesday of next week. thank you so much, mrs. leslie. mrs. leslie. thank you. testimony of george s. de mohrenschildt the testimony of george s. de mohrenschildt was taken at a.m., on april , , at maryland avenue n.e., washington, d.c., by mr. albert e. jenner, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. dr. alfred goldberg, historian, was present. mr. jenner. will you rise and be sworn? do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in the deposition you are about to give? mr. de mohrenschildt. i do. mr. jenner. mr. reporter, this is mr. george de mohrenschildt. mr. de mohrenschildt, you and mrs. de mohrenschildt have received letters from mr. rankin, the general counsel of the commission, have you not? mr. de mohrenschildt. we received one. mr. jenner. one joint letter? mr. de mohrenschildt. one joint letter. mr. jenner. with which was enclosed copies of the senate joint resolution , which was the legislation authorizing the creation of the commission to investigate the assassination of president john fitzgerald kennedy; the executive order no. , president lyndon johnson--which brought the commission actually into existence and appointed the commissioners and fixed their powers and duties and obligations. and, also, a copy of the rules and regulations adopted by the commission for the taking of testimony before the commission, and by deposition. mr. de mohrenschildt. are you a representative of the commission? mr. jenner. yes. mr. de mohrenschildt. a lawyer for the commission? mr. jenner. i will state it in a moment. i am albert e. jenner, jr., member of the legal staff of the commission, and have prepared to make inquiry of you with respect to the subject matter with which the commission is charged. in general, as you have noted from the documents enclosed with mr. rankin's letter, the commission is charged with the investigation and the assembling of facts respecting the assassination of president john f. kennedy on the d of november , the events that followed that assassination, and all matters before and after that are deemed by the commission relevant to its obligations. in pursuing these lines of inquiry, which we have been doing now for some months, we have examined before the commission and by way of deposition various people who, by pure happenstance in the course of their lives, came into contact either with lee harvey oswald or marina oswald, or others who had some relation with them. and in the course of our investigation, we have learned that you and mrs. de mohrenschildt befriended the oswalds at one time, and had some other contact with them. as you realize, there are rumors and speculations of various people who do not know what the facts are--some of them know bits of the facts--which require us in many instances to inquire into matters that are largely personal. we are not doing so merely because we are curious. i will confine myself to matters that we believe to be relevant. it may not always be apparent to you, because we know a great deal more, of course, than any one witness would know. mr. de mohrenschildt. you know, this affair actually is hurting me quite a lot, particularly right now in haiti, because president duvalier--i have a contract with the government. mr. jenner. yes; i want to inquire on that. mr. de mohrenschildt. they got wind i am called by the warren committee. nobody knows how it happened. and now he associates me, being very scared of assassination, with a staff of international assassins, and i am about to be expelled from the country. my contract may be broken. so i discussed that with our ambassador there, mr. timmons, and he said, of course, it sounds ridiculous, but he will try to do his best. supposedly, president duvalier received a letter from washington. now, this is unofficial--one of the ministers informed me of that--in which this letter states that i was a very close friend of oswald's, that i am a polish communist and a member of an international band. mr. jenner. i would say that you are misinformed on that. mr. de mohrenschildt. well, he did receive some kind of a letter. mr. jenner. but nothing that would contain any such statements. mr. de mohrenschildt. well, i don't know from whom. some kind of a letter he received from someone. mr. jenner. it may have been a crank letter. mr. de mohrenschildt. what is that? mr. jenner. it may have been a crank letter, but nothing official. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; i am sure it is nothing official. i am sure it could not have been anything official. i hope mr. timmons will investigate it. because, naturally, the minister of finance of haiti tells me that it is an official letter and seems to indicate that it comes from the fbi. but i just doubt it, personally. probably a crank letter. i do not have an extraordinary admiration for the fbi. but, frankly, i don't think they would do anything like that, you know. mr. jenner. they don't go around making official---- mr. de mohrenschildt. so i hope that this unpleasantness will be somehow repaired by mr. timmons. and i think that just a communication from him to the foreign office there might help. i am not persona non grata at the embassy. he doesn't have to swear i am this or that, or that i am a good friend of his. but just that i am not persona non grata would be sufficient, i think. because this job i have there in haiti is a result of many years of work, preparation, and it is important for me. it involves a considerable amount of money, $ , , and further development, mining and oil development, which goes with it--and preparation of this job started already in , when i first came to haiti, and went several times subsequently and worked there. it is a long-term approach that i have started, because i like the country, and i think it has excellent oil possibilities, and i finally got that contract about in march last year. so if the committee could do something in that respect--i am going also to see a gentleman in the state department who mr. timmons suggested me to see and explain the situation to him. it would be very unpleasant, just to be kicked out of the country because of the rumors. mr. jenner. well, we certainly don't want that to happen. all right. mr. de mohrenschildt. please think about what can be done in this respect, because it is really very important to me. mr. jenner. now---- mr. de mohrenschildt. and excuse me. i am also employing american geologists there, and i am responsible for them and their families. i have several haitian engineers and geologists working there. so it is not a fly-by-night project, you see. mr. jenner. well, i don't regard it as such, and i know something about it. i think probably it would be well if we start from the beginning. you were born in ? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. some of the reports say april th and some say april th, or something of that nature. it is probably a difference in the calendar. mr. de mohrenschildt. that is it exactly. it is a difference in calendar. mr. jenner. it is april , , by what calendar? mr. de mohrenschildt. by our calendar here. mr. jenner. and what date by---- mr. de mohrenschildt. april th. mr. jenner. and by what calendar is that? mr. de mohrenschildt. by the gregorian calendar. mr. jenner. in any event, you are now years old? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. where were you born? mr. de mohrenschildt. a town called mozyr. mr. jenner. what country? mr. de mohrenschildt. russia; czarist russia. mr. jenner. czarist, did you say? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. now, some of the reports indicate that this was poland rather than russia. would you explain this? mr. de mohrenschildt. well, i don't remember the town, because i never lived there to my memory. but it is not too far from the polish border. mr. jenner. now, your father was sergis alexander von mohrenschildt, is that correct? and your mother was alexandra zopalsky? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. what nationality was your mother? mr. de mohrenschildt. my mother was russian, of polish and hungarian descent. mr. jenner. and the nationality of your father? mr. de mohrenschildt. he was also of russian, swedish, german descent. mr. jenner. would you tell me a little bit about your father? and may i say this. there appear in the reports that he was--or maybe your grandfather, was swedish, or someone in your line was swedish, and received some commission or grant from the queen of sweden at one time, or maybe your family. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. tell us about that, will you? mr. de mohrenschildt. well, the family is of swedish origin. the name is spelled m-o-h-r-e-n-s-k-u-l-d. mr. jenner. yes; i saw last night in looking over these materials the spelling s-k-o-l-d-t, is that correct? mr. de mohrenschildt. that is right, it is spelled this way. that is a swedish way of spelling. and the letter "o" with two dots over it is a typical swedish letter which cannot be translated or written down in any language. so in probably moving to russia, or to the baltic states, you see, which was an intermediary area between russia and sweden, they probably changed it to s-c-h-i-l-d-t. and it can also be written in russian, at the same time. mr. jenner. now, what did your father do? what was he? mr. de mohrenschildt. he was a landowner. he was a director of the nobel interests for a while. he was a marshal of nobility of the minsk province. mr. jenner. he was what? mr. de mohrenschildt. marshal of nobility. he was elected representative of the landowners to the government. mr. jenner. of what country? mr. de mohrenschildt. of czarist russia. he was born in russia, and spent all his life in russia, spoke german at home sometimes, sometimes russian. that was a mixed-up family, of which there were so many in russia. mr. jenner. you, yourself, have the command of at least four, maybe five languages. may i see if i can recall them. english? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; if you consider it a command. mr. jenner. yes; i do. german? mr. de mohrenschildt. german, not too well. mr. jenner. spanish? mr. de mohrenschildt. spanish. mr. jenner. french? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. russian? mr. de mohrenschildt. russian; yes. mr. jenner. and i suppose a smattering of a number of other languages. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. you have traveled widely? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. especially in europe? mr. de mohrenschildt. now you can add creole to it. mr. jenner. from your experience in haiti? mr. de mohrenschildt. that is right. and yugoslav. mr. jenner. yes; you spent almost a year in yugoslavia. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. did you pick up any danish when you were there, or do they speak french there? mr. de mohrenschildt. they speak german and french. mr. jenner. your father is deceased? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. what do you know about his death? mr. de mohrenschildt. my father was---- mr. jenner. i think it might be well, mr. de mohrenschildt--i am trying to make this informal. i want you to relax. may i say, because of the considerations about which you are concerned, i will tend to inquire into these things. mr. de mohrenschildt. i am very glad that you do, because you know what i mean--it is probably being in a controversial business like i am, international business---- mr. jenner. also, i gather that you are a pretty lively character. mr. de mohrenschildt. maybe so. i hope so. all sorts of speculation have arisen from time to time. and i don't mind, frankly, because when you don't have anything to hide, you see, you are not afraid of anything. i am very outspoken. mr. jenner. i understand that you are, from witnesses i have interviewed, and from these mountains of reports. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; i can imagine. by the way, those reports--again, you see this inquiry is probably going to hurt my business. i hope they are conducted somehow delicately. mr. jenner. now, i was asking you to tell me about your father. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. up to the time of his death, from what you understand to be the circumstances of death. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; well, my father, then, therefore, was an important official of the czarist government. but he was a liberal--he had very liberal ideas. he, for instance, was---- mr. jenner. now, liberal, to me, over in that country would mean nothing. you tell us what you mean by that. mr. de mohrenschildt. liberal means disliked anti-semitism, the persecution of jews. mr. jenner. he was opposed to that? mr. de mohrenschildt. opposed to that. disliked the oppression, some elements of oppression of the czarist government. mr. jenner. he was opposed to that? mr. de mohrenschildt. opposed to that. and preached constitutional government. during the war he was a member--being an official--member of the group which mobilized the army, and all that. mr. jenner. he mobilized the czarist army? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. you are talking now about world war i? mr. de mohrenschildt. world war i. it is such a long time ago. mr. jenner. i have to get these things on record, so that somebody who is reading this, mr. de mohrenschildt, a hundred years from now--i should tell you that your testimony will be reproduced in full just as you give it, with all my questions put to you just as i put them. and it will be printed as part of the report. mr. de mohrenschildt. i can imagine what a volume it will be for the future ph. d.'s to study. this is vague in my memory. i am saying what i vaguely remember, because, at that time, i was years old. but i vaguely remember those days, the objections of my father against the czarist government to a degree, although he was an official. he was an independent character, too. finally he resigned his marshal of nobility position, and became a director of nobel interests, of which his older brother was a president or chairman of the board--i don't know, i don't remember any more, in baku, russia. so we spent a little time there--in the oil fields. and then, of course, the revolution came. mr. jenner. and that came when? mr. de mohrenschildt. beg pardon? mr. jenner. when? mr. de mohrenschildt. , i guess. then the revolution came. we were returned to minsk. mr. jenner. in where were you? mr. de mohrenschildt. in probably in st. petersburg, or moscow, one or the other--in both towns at some times. because the headquarters of that nobel enterprises were in petersburg or moscow. but i am not so sure about that. anyway, we lived there for awhile. mr. jenner. you do have a personal recollection of having lived in st. petersburg and moscow? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes, very vague. i never expected you to ask me such questions. i really have to delve into my memory. it is not very difficult, because, you know, i like to write things. so i did write a story of my childhood, and it is called "child of the revolution," a memory of the child of the revolution. it was poorly written. i showed it to one of the editors, scribners, i remember, and they wanted me to change it, and i abandoned the whole thing. well, so i do have a little bit more recollection than i am supposed to have just by living so many years, because i did write it down. mr. jenner. yes. you wrote it when you came over to this country. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. and you refreshed your recollection at that time? mr. de mohrenschildt. that is right. mr. jenner. discussions with your brother, i suppose? mr. de mohrenschildt. that is right. mr. jenner. now, you have mentioned minsk. mr. de mohrenschildt. that was the province where my father was governor--not governor, but marshal of nobility of. mr. jenner. what province is that? mr. de mohrenschildt. province of minsk. surprisingly, that is where lee oswald lived. this is one of the reasons i was curious about his experiences, because i remember it very well. i remember that town very well. mr. jenner. what age were you when you left minsk? mr. de mohrenschildt. so from leningrad, during the occupation by the germans of minsk, you see, we escaped from the communists in leningrad, and moved to minsk back again, because it was german occupied. mr. jenner. this was in world war i? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes, in world war i. that was in or . i don't remember exactly what year it was. that area was still occupied by the germans. anyway, there was famine in moscow, or leningrad, i don't remember which one---there was famine there. so we escaped. mr. jenner. did your whole family escape to minsk? mr. de mohrenschildt. i don't remember what my brother was doing at the time. i think--i think just my father, mother, and myself. i think my brother was in the naval academy at the time. mr. jenner. i want to ask you about your brother in due course. he is about years older than you? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes-- . mr. jenner. a man of some scholarly attainment, by the way. mr. de mohrenschildt. he certainly is. he loves books. mr. jenner. now---- mr. de mohrenschildt. anyway, we escaped from the famine, frankly, more than communism, and moved back to minsk--whether we had a house, or i don't remember, but we had some possessions there. and we arrived there. and from then on we stayed there, although the communists eventually occupied minsk. then my father was put in jail. i will make it short. mr. jenner. please--that is all right. i don't mind the shortness. but i want times. about when was your father put in jail? mr. de mohrenschildt. the first time in , i think. mr. jenner. and you were still with your family then? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. at this time you were years old. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. your mother was still alive? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. your father was seized? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. by whom? mr. de mohrenschildt. by the communists, by the communist regime. mr. jenner. why was he seized? mr. de mohrenschildt. for being outspoken, i guess. i remember--the first time i don't remember, frankly. but the second time i remember very well, because this is very interesting. he was seized the first time. then the polish army arrived--the poles and the russians were fighting at the time. and at the last moment the communists released my father, because of the intervention of some friend, you see. and we always had some friends whom we had protected once upon a time, who always came and helped him at the right moment with the communists, because many jewish people he had helped became communists, or halfway communists. they helped him. and that is how eventually we were able to escape from soviet russia. the first time he was released, the poles arrived, we were in poland again, that was a temporary occupation. and then the poles retreated and the russians arrived again. and here was the question to decide whether we should go with the poles or stay in russia. and my father decided to stay in russia because being a liberal he had an impression that they have changed. mr. jenner. that the russians had changed? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; he heard from somebody that they have become liberal. he stayed in minsk, and because he stayed he got some kind of an appointment in the soviet government. i don't remember which one it was. i guess in the department of agriculture, because he was interested in division of big estates. that was his idea--what was going on in russia was opposed by the huge estates. we had one, also, but not as big. so he was always in favor of the division of the big estates, breaking them up into smaller farms. and he had this appointment, adviser to the minister of agriculture--i don't remember what it was exactly. and we lived more or less happily for a certain number of months--although there was a famine there. mr. jenner. now, you are still in minsk? mr. de mohrenschildt. still in minsk; yes--in probably . and then one day they arrested him again. and here is what happened. i will show you what kind of a person he was. at the time they were installing museums in churches. and my father objected to that. mr. jenner. your father was a religious man, was he? mr. de mohrenschildt. no; he was not religious. but he objected by principle to that. he was not very religious at all. but he objected to the intervention into other people's faith. we never had too much religion in the family. and he was put in jail. and started criticizing the soviet government. and, finally--i remember this more distinctly--because he was finally sentenced to life exile to siberia. and that i will never forget about my father--an interesting thing. mr. jenner. he was banished to siberia by the russians? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. these are the bolsheviks who had conducted the revolution. this was a revolutionary period? mr. de mohrenschildt. that is right. this is by now. mr. jenner. you are now years old? mr. de mohrenschildt. i remained on the street making my own living somehow. my mother runs around the country trying to save my father. he is in jail for the second time, and finally he gets sentenced to life imprisonment in a town called vieliki ustug in siberia. this is as far as i remember the name of it. and why was he sentenced for that--because at the hearing, whatever they called the court, they asked him, "what kind of government do you suggest for soviet russia?" and he said, fool as he was, "constitutional monarchy," and that was it. that was his sentence--just because of that. because, actually, they didn't have anything against him. my father was a liberal and never hurt anybody. he became very sick in jail. and these friends--the friends whom he had helped previously---- mr. jenner. you mean true friends? mr. de mohrenschildt. that is right. in this particular case i don't remember their names. they were a couple of jewish doctors who advised my father to eat as little as possible, any way to appear very sick, and finally--they themselves were his doctors. they finally made the position with the soviet government that he was going to die, he was not going to survive the trip to siberia, because he was going to be sent directly to siberia, with the family, with all of us. and that he should be released to stay home, and just appear once--a couple of times a week to show he is there, until his health condition improved, and he was able to be sent to siberia. and they did that, surprisingly, and they released him. and that is where he made his preparations for escape. and the same people, helped him to get some transportation, a hay wagon, and we crossed the border, in a very long and tedious way. but we crossed the border of poland. mr. jenner. you crossed the border into poland, and he settled where? mr. de mohrenschildt. in a town called wilno. mr. jenner. that was yourself, your mother, and your father? mr. de mohrenschildt. my father. but my mother almost immediately died from typhoid fever which she contracted during this escape. we all had this typhoid fever. mr. jenner. but she succumbed to it? mr. de mohrenschildt. that is right. mr. jenner. and this was what year? mr. de mohrenschildt. . mr. jenner. you are now years old. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. at this point i might ask you--the name was von mohrenschildt at this particular time? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. your name is now de mohrenschildt. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. i think your brother still uses the von, does he not? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. would you explain that? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes--because i am more or less of a french orientation. and when i became an american citizen, i did not like the prefix "von" which is german to the average person. and so we used "de" which is equally used in sweden or in the baltic states, interchangeably. and my uncle, who was here in the states for quite some time, and died here---- mr. jenner. i was going to ask you about him. you might as well give his full name. mr. de mohrenschildt. ferdinand de mohrenschildt. mr. jenner. i will digress for a moment. ferdinand de mohrenschildt was some officer, or had a connection with the russian embassy here in washington? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. tell us about that, please. mr. de mohrenschildt. well, he was first secretary of the czarist embassy, the last czarist embassy here in washington. he married mcadoo's daughter. mr. jenner. william gibbs mcadoo's daughter. she is now mrs. post. is she still alive? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; she is still alive. mr. jenner. do you recall her first name? mr. de mohrenschildt. nona. mr. jenner. your uncle is deceased? mr. de mohrenschildt. he is deceased; yes. mr. jenner. they were eventually divorced, were they not? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes, sir; no--he died. they were never divorced. she was divorced many times--remarried and divorced many times. but he died--i guess in or . mr. jenner. sometimes people refer to you as baron de mohrenschildt. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. would you explain that? mr. de mohrenschildt. i don't refer to myself as that, you know. but supposedly the family has the right to it, because we are members of the baltic nobility. mr. jenner. through what source? mr. de mohrenschildt. through the swedish source, from the time of queen christina. but my father never used the title, because of his perhaps liberal tendencies. neither did ferdinand, i think. mr. jenner. and as near as i can tell, your brother never has? mr. de mohrenschildt. my brother--i don't think so; no. mr. jenner. at least i don't find it in any of the papers. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. you are an interesting person, mr. de mohrenschildt, to many people. they have gathered ideas about you, and many of them in the past at least have felt that you might have been, or that you perhaps were--had a title of some kind. i just wanted to explain that of record. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. now, we have you in wilno, poland. you are years old. mr. de mohrenschildt. i have some papers which say that we are barons, in my files. but, frankly, i don't--i think it is sort of ridiculous to use the title. my ex-wife loved the idea. mr. jenner. which one? mr. de mohrenschildt. the very last one, sharples. mr. jenner. am i correct that there were two children, yourself and your brother dimitri? mr. de mohrenschildt. that is right. mr. jenner. and no others--just two children? mr. de mohrenschildt. that is right. mr. jenner. now, you stayed in wilno, poland, how long? mr. de mohrenschildt. stayed in wilno until i graduated from gymnasium, which is the equivalent of high school. a little bit more than a high school. that must have been . not constantly over there, but that is where our home was. mr. jenner. what did your father do in wilno? mr. de mohrenschildt. in wilno he fought for the--tried to regain back our estate. it happened to be we had an estate, a piece of land. mr. jenner. in russia? mr. de mohrenschildt. in russia--which became poland--in czarist russia, but which became poland. right on the border. it became through the partition of czarist russia, it became part of poland. and this estate was in poliesie. that is a wooded area of poland, right on the border. well, the estate was seized by the peasants and divided among themselves by themselves. it was not large, but it was--well, maybe , acres; , or , acres. mr. jenner. i would say that is fairly large. mr. de mohrenschildt. my father was able to regain it. he did not take it back from the peasants, but he regained ownership and was able to sell the forests from it, and eventually sold it back again to the peasants piece by piece. so we were not completely penniless refugees. mr. jenner. did your mother have an interest in that estate? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes, it was mother's and father's estate, probably jointly. mr. jenner. all right. now, you completed your classical intermediate education, as you call the gymnasium, in . mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. so you are now years sf age? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. your mother is deceased. did you live with your father during this period? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. now---- mr. de mohrenschildt. very close relationship i had with my father. mr. jenner. now, did you then leave poland? mr. de mohrenschildt. no. then i tried to--i did not like the country very much, poland. we became polish citizens, but i didn't particularly feel at home there. i learned the language. but it didn't feel like home. and i decided to go to study in belgium, and asked for permission to go to belgium, and the polish government refused me the permission because i was close to the military age. so i volunteered for the polish army. mr. jenner. now, i would like to go into that. go right ahead. mr. de mohrenschildt. i volunteered for the polish army and chose the cavalry and was sent to the military academy in grudziondz. well, it was a famous military academy in poland where the polish nobility displayed their ability to ride horseback. and i was able to get to it because i volunteered--i was years old. i graduated from there. mr. jenner. excuse me. may i ask you this; would it have been possible for any young man your age at that time, let's say, if i may use a reference, peasant, which you were not, to have volunteered for the same position or division in the polish army? mr. de mohrenschildt. there were some exceptions. most of the people there were members of the aristocracy, polish aristocracy, and german aristocracy, who happened to have estates in poland. but we had some exceptions. but they did not survive later on. they were eliminated, not because of the snobbishness, but it was a pretty tough training, and you needed money to be in that school. you had to have a uniform, you have to have your own horse. mr. jenner. now, where did you get the funds to finance it? mr. de mohrenschildt. well, my father had this estate, sales of land from that estate, and he also was--now, this i forgot to mention about my father. he started originally as a professor in the gymnasium, then became a government official with the czarist government. so he was always--always liked to teach. mr. jenner. you are taking us back to russia for a moment? mr. de mohrenschildt. back to russia for a moment; yes. so now his profession as a government official was no good--neither his experience as a director of nobel enterprises was not much good. so he became a professor and a director of the gymnasium, the russian gymnasium. mr. jenner. that is the high school? mr. de mohrenschildt. high school, in wilno. you know--where the immigrants send their children. and he was director of it for a number of years. i don't remember what exact years. i guess until or . i didn't go to the same school, by the way. i went to a different school. mr. jenner. you mean you went to a school different from the one in which he was teaching? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; in order not to be under my father's--not supervision, but also that school did not give the rights in poland, by the way--did not have the rights in poland to go to a university in poland or to serve a short military term, because it was a refugee school, conducted in the russian language. so i went to a polish school, had to learn the polish language, and finally graduated. mr. jenner. did i mention polish as one of the languages of which you have a command? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. and, therefore, it was very important, because the military service for the people graduating from nonaccepted schools was years, or something like that, and for the ones who graduated from the official school it was, i think, a year and a half. mr. jenner. now, how long were you in the military academy? mr. de mohrenschildt. a year and a half. mr. jenner. and this would take us, then, to the middle of . mr. de mohrenschildt. ; yes. mr. jenner. and you had reached what, if any, rank in the military service? mr. de mohrenschildt. i reached candidate officer--sergeant candidate officer, an intermediate rank between an officer and noncommissioned officer. the highest you can get after you get from the military academy. mr. jenner. just before as in this country you are about to be commissioned a second lieutenant? mr. de mohrenschildt. that is right. except that you are not completely a soldier--you are not a noncommissioned officer, you are not a commissioned officer. you are about to be commissioned a lieutenant. mr. jenner. i see. all right. now, you didn't pursue that? mr. de mohrenschildt. no, no. it was just a reserve. you see, it gives you a reserve rank which you can pursue by going back to maneuvers, and pursue that. mr. jenner. now, there are some indications that you did return. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. now, tell me what you did in that connection? mr. de mohrenschildt. well, i went to school, then to belgium--i was free now to go to school to belgium. and i went to institut superieur de commerce a anvers. mr. jenner. the translation of that is the institute of higher commercial studies, antwerp, belgium. when attending the institution of higher commercial studies in antwerp, you returned to poland, did you, from time to time? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. in connection with your summer maneuvers? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. and what was the requirement in that connection? mr. de mohrenschildt. just to come there when they called you, and go with the army--summer maneuvers, summer exercises. i think i did that twice. i don't recall. mr. jenner. and this was still in the cavalry? mr. de mohrenschildt. still in the cavalry. mr. jenner. were you ultimately commissioned? mr. de mohrenschildt. no; always stayed a sergeant. mr. jenner. you entered the institute of---- mr. de mohrenschildt. by the way, which was a commission--that is very hard to explain to you. it is like midshipman in the navy. that is what it is. and since i did not pursue the military career, i remained a candidate officer. mr. jenner. all right. mr. de mohrenschildt. i was not disqualified for any reason. on the contrary, i was the best actually, if i may say so. mr. jenner. let me pass for a moment in this connection so we can get it on the record here--your brother, dimitri, years older than you, he also devoted his time to the service, but to the navy. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. now, that was the russian czarist navy, was it not? mr. de mohrenschildt. that is right. mr. jenner. and tell us about that, please. mr. de mohrenschildt. well, he joined the naval academy when i think he was or years old. that is what they have out there. they start very young. do you want a little bit of the background of my brother? mr. jenner. yes, sir; go right ahead. mr. de mohrenschildt. he is really a ferocious anti-communist, so you would be very happy to hear about that. he was in the russian imperial navy, became a midshipman. mr. jenner. give me some dates. mr. de mohrenschildt. well, he was a midshipman in , in sebastopol, which is the headquarters there. mr. jenner. now, he was born march , , in st. petersburg, russia. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. i thought he was born in . mr. jenner. well, his records at the passport office give his birth as march , , and he gives his birth in his biographical material at dartmouth and yale. mr. de mohrenschildt. well, anyway, he was a young edition of a midshipman. he was a midshipman in , which is like graduation from annapolis here. mr. jenner. and did he actually serve in the czarist navy? mr. de mohrenschildt. all the time you are in that school you are in the navy, all the time--even when you are years old, you are a member of the navy. it is not like here. mr. jenner. did he participate in world war i, in the late period of fighting. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. do you recall where? mr. de mohrenschildt. i don't recall where. he joined anti-communist groups, was finally caught by the communists, and sentenced to death in a town called smolensk. here we were coming back to our--we were already in minsk at the time, that was not too far. my brother was in smolensk in jail, in a communist jail. my father also in jail. and i was the only one at liberty. and my mother was running around trying to help both of them. my brother was sentenced to be shot. he was put to the wall and they told him, "you will be shot when they say three, and they would say one, two--he was supposed to disclose the names of his accomplices. now, i do not recall; yes, yes. the polish government exchanged him against a communist. they made an exchange. they had some communist prisoners, and my brother was with a group of poles who were prisoners of the communists, and the poles exchanged him against some of my father's old friends. and i remember who it is. it was a catholic bishop in poland. mr. jenner. what was his name? mr. de mohrenschildt. lozinski. he was a bishop who was in jail with my brother, also, and they wanted him, he helped my brother to get out. mr. jenner. did your brother join you in wilno, poland? mr. de mohrenschildt. he immediately--it looks vague. i think he joined us for a little while, or he maybe went ahead of us and came to the united states. mr. jenner. my information is that he emigrated to the united states on the th of august . mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. a little bit ahead of us. mr. jenner. does that square with your recollection? mr. de mohrenschildt. that is right. you see, there was an intermediate year. the poles had occupied part of russia. i think we saw him just before he departed for the united states. the poles offered him to join the navy in poland, and he decided to go to the united states. mr. jenner. all right. i had digressed a moment because it was appropriate to have your brother come in at the point we reached. but we have you now in belgium, attending the university. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. had your brother had a higher education while he was still in russia? that is, had he gone beyond the gymnasium stage? mr. de mohrenschildt. no. my brother was a midshipman in the navy. he had only the naval academy education, and even shortened--short naval academy education. i don't know what you would compare it to. certainly better than high school here. mr. jenner. junior college? mr. de mohrenschildt. junior college; yes. mr. jenner. now, you continued your studies, did you, in belgium? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. and did you receive a degree from the institute of higher commercial studies in antwerp? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. i received what you called--master's degree, probably equivalent, because they don't have bachelor's degree there. you get immediately a master's degree--a license--in finance and in maritime transportation--another year of maritime transportation. mr. jenner. and you attended this institute for years, did you not? mr. de mohrenschildt. for years. mr. jenner. well, you received---- mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; all the degrees you can get there. mr. jenner. this is one of the oldest commercial institutions of higher learning in europe? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. something like the harvard business school? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; founded by napoleon. mr. jenner. and you received a---- mr. de mohrenschildt. it is a mixture of some engineering and commercial--not exactly like harvard school of business administration. it lets you carry on industrial and business activities, with a specialization in maritime transportation. mr. jenner. there is some indication that your degree is one of master of arts in commercial, financial, and counsular sciences. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. now, you continued on--after you received that master's degree, you continued on for another year, did you not? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. no; you entered---- mr. de mohrenschildt. i entered the university of liege. mr. jenner. and how long did you study there? mr. de mohrenschildt. two years. mr. jenner. and you ultimately received a degree, did you not? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. what was that degree? mr. de mohrenschildt. doctor of science in international commerce. mr. jenner. did you write a doctorate thesis? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. on what subject was it? mr. de mohrenschildt. it was the subject of the economic influence of the united states on latin america. mr. jenner. had you already acquired, through that, an interest in latin america? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes, yes. mr. jenner. and you have pursued that in subsequent years, have you not? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; a very useful dissertation it was. mr. jenner. now, we have you--let's see, this is about years--you are about---- mr. de mohrenschildt. . mr. jenner. we are up in . mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. now,---- mr. de mohrenschildt. in the meantime, my brother came to visit me from the united states. we had not seen each other since . he was studying--he was pursuing his career, and eventually got married. mr. jenner. to miss mcadoo? mr. de mohrenschildt. no; that is my uncle. my brother married a lady by the name of betty cartright hooker. mr. jenner. that is right. and you were in partnership at one time with edward hooker, were you not? mr. de mohrenschildt. that is right. mr. jenner. i will get to that in a moment. she is still living, is she not? mr. de mohrenschildt. she still is living; yes, sir. mr. jenner. is she in this country or in paris or italy? mr. de mohrenschildt. she is in new york now. i have her address some place. she lives between new york and paris. mr. jenner. did you engage in some kind of a business in europe during this period? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. while you were attending the university? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. how did you manage that while you--inasmuch as you were pursuing your studies at two universities? mr. de mohrenschildt. well, i had an interest in a sport shop with a girl friend of mine. it helped me to make ends meet. mr. jenner. what was the name of that company? mr. de mohrenschildt. the name was sigurd. mr. jenner. and that was devoted to what--readymade clothes, ski clothes, and that sort of thing? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. and did you attempt to sell those throughout europe? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. in the process of doing so, did you then travel through europe? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. where did you get the funds to finance that? mr. de mohrenschildt. very little funds--maybe a $ , , $ , , from my father, and whatever savings my girl friend had. she was an excellent saleswoman. mr. jenner. had you received any funds from your mother's participation in the estate you had? mr. de mohrenschildt. i think that was the money that helped me to start--when i was years old i received a couple of thousand dollars--although i did not take all the money away from my father, but at least part of it. or maybe more than that--maybe $ , or $ , . i really don't recall. mr. jenner. there is some indication in the papers that it was as much as $ , . mr. de mohrenschildt. maybe so. mr. jenner. you just don't have---- mr. de mohrenschildt. it was a very successful operation, this business, sigurd. mr. jenner. did you subsequently dissolve it? mr. de mohrenschildt. dissolved it, quarreled with my girl friend, decided to come to the states. mr. jenner. your brother had been over to see you in the meantime? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; and that is what, by the way, induced me into coming to the states, because my brother and his wife came to meet me. they sort of were not too much interested in meeting a mistress--let's face it--and eventually it led to a breakup between us, between my ex-girl friend and myself. mr. jenner. and you came to this country in ? mr. de mohrenschildt. may of . mr. jenner. may of , i think it was. what did you do to sustain yourself? mr. de mohrenschildt. well, i brought some money with me. i brought some money with me--something like $ , , i would say. mr. jenner. and what did you immediately do in connection with that? mr. de mohrenschildt. what did i do immediately? mr. jenner. i mean did you enter into---- mr. de mohrenschildt. i started looking for a job, very unsuccessfully, if i may say so. in new york in those days, in . i even started selling perfumes, i remember, for a company called chevalier garde. mr. jenner. did you have any interest in that company? mr. de mohrenschildt. no; just purely as a salesman. i even sold some materials for shumaker and company. mr. jenner. where were you residing then, with your brother? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; part of the time. then i had my own room. mr. jenner. your brother was then living on park avenue, was he? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. ? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. and you--how long did you stay with him? mr. de mohrenschildt. i think as soon as i arrived we went to spend the summer on long island, belport, long island. mr. jenner. and at belport, you made what acquaintances? mr. de mohrenschildt. lots of people, but especially mrs. bouvier. mr. jenner. who is mrs. bouvier? mr. de mohrenschildt. mrs. bouvier is jacqueline kennedy's mother, also her father and her whole family. she was in the process of getting a divorce from her husband. i met him, also. we were very close friends. we saw each other every day. i met jackie then, when she was a little girl. her sister, who was still in the cradle practically. we were also very close friends of jack bouvier's sister, and his father. mr. jenner. well, bring yourself along. mr. de mohrenschildt. that friendship more or less remained, because we still see each other, occasionally--mrs. auchincloss, and occasionally correspond. well, then, i realized there was no future selling perfume or materials in the state, and having had that background of the oil industry in my blood, because my father was the director of nobel enterprises, which is a large oil concern in russia, which was eventually expropriated and confiscated, and i decided to come and try to work for an oil company. i arrived in texas. mr. jenner. excuse me, sir. before we get there--because that skips some things--one of your efforts was as an insurance salesman? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; that is right. mr. jenner. and---- mr. de mohrenschildt. how did you know that? mr. jenner. you were unsuccessful in that, were you? mr. de mohrenschildt. very unsuccessful. mr. jenner. as a matter of fact, you didn't sell a single policy? mr. de mohrenschildt. not a single policy. mr. jenner. over what period of a time did you pursue that activity? mr. de mohrenschildt. i even didn't pass my broker's examination. i tried to get an insurance broker's license. i studied to be an insurance broker in the state of new york. and i failed dismally that examination. so that was the end of my insurance business. mr. jenner. now, we have you up to the advent of world war ii, which was--this is about . mr. de mohrenschildt. but before that i was in texas and worked for humble oil co. mr. jenner. before you had gone to texas? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; in . mr. jenner. you went to texas in ? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. and how did that come about? mr. de mohrenschildt. well, i was interested in the oil industry and wanted to see in which way i could fit into the oil industry. mr. jenner. whom did you contact? how did you get there? mr. de mohrenschildt. well, i went by bus--to texas by bus. but what actually helped me was that my sister-in-law, my wife's sister, had a very, very close friend in louisiana, mrs. margaret clark--margaret clark williams, who had large oil properties, large estates in louisiana. that is about the year . i got to louisiana, as the guest, i remember--with my sister-in-law's aunt, mrs. edwards. and then i looked the situation around in new orleans and decided to apply for a job with humble oil co. mr. jenner. in new orleans? mr. de mohrenschildt. no. they had a branch office in new orleans, but i had to apply for a job in houston. so i went to houston, and i applied for a job with mr. suman, who is vice president of humble oil co. also i met the chairman of the board of the humble oil co. through mutual acquaintances. mr. jenner. did you return to louisiana and do some work there? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; i worked in terebonne parish, on a rig. mr. jenner. you worked on a rig. this is physical work? mr. de mohrenschildt. physical work, yes; lifting pipes, cleaning machinery. mr. jenner. in other words, starting from the ground floor? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. if there is such a thing in the oil business. mr. de mohrenschildt. absolutely. mr. jenner. whatever the bottom was, you were doing it? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes, sir. very well paid, by the way--a very well paid job, but very tough--at the time, you see, what good pay was at the time. mr. jenner. i think we might at this time see if i can describe you for the record. you are ' ", are you not? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. and now you weigh, i would say, about ? mr. de mohrenschildt. that is right. mr. jenner. back in those days you weighed around . mr. de mohrenschildt. that is right. mr. jenner. you are athletically inclined? mr. de mohrenschildt. that is right. mr. jenner. and you have dark hair. mr. de mohrenschildt. no gray hairs yet. mr. jenner. and you have a tanned--you are quite tanned, are you not? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and you are an outdoorsman? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. i have to tell you--i never expected you to ask me such questions. i also tried to get various jobs otherwise. i went to arizona. mr. jenner. mr. de mohrenschildt, one of the things i am trying to do is get your personality into the record, because many people have described your personality. mr. de mohrenschildt. very different, probably. mr. jenner. i wouldn't say very different. but you would be surprised the kind of things that are said about you. i don't know that you would be surprised. mr. de mohrenschildt. i know that i have friends, i have enemies. mr. jenner. well, everybody has. mr. de mohrenschildt. i also went to arizona, i remember, and tried to get a job as--i don't know if it is after this experience with humble oil co.--probably--over--to get a job as a polo instructor at the arizona desert school. since we played polo in the military academy, i know how to play polo. i am not an expert player, but i do know how to play polo, and i am a good rider, and was a good rider. so i tried to get the job in the arizona desert school for boys. and for some reason i could not get this job. there was a job available. i don't remember what the circumstances were. i never got this job. but i think it is after my experience with humble oil co. mr. jenner. you worked in the louisiana oil fields as--what did you call it? mr. de mohrenschildt. a roughneck, or roustabout, it is called. mr. jenner. and you pursued that how long? mr. de mohrenschildt. i think or months. mr. jenner. we are still in ? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. all right. mr. de mohrenschildt. probably in . and i got amoebic dysentery in louisiana, and got very sick. i had an accident on the rig, was badly cut up--something fell on my arm, and then i got dysentery. and, frankly, i do not recall whether they fired me or i resigned myself. i do not remember. maybe both--resigned and mutual agreement. but i remained very good friends with the chairman of the board of the company, mr. blaffer. and he gave me the idea already then to go in the oil business on my own. he says, "george, a man of your background and education, you should be working for yourself," and he explained to me the fundamentals of the oil promotion, if you know what i mean--drill wells, get a lease--drill a well, find some money to drill that well. well, i said, "mr. blaffer, frankly it is a little above me to go in so early in my experience in the united states--to go into that type of business. i don't think i am capable enough to do that." mr. jenner. well, you didn't have the capital at that time, did you? mr. de mohrenschildt. i didn't have the capital. but he said you could do it without capital. mr. jenner. all right. when you left the louisiana oil fields, what did you do? mr. de mohrenschildt. went back to new york, recovered from my amoebic dysentery. and i don't remember whether it is then that i tried insurance or not. it is possible then that i was trying to work at this insurance broker's deal. and then this friend of my sister-in-law's, margaret clark williams, died, and left all of us a certain amount of money. my sister-in-law, mrs. edwards, myself--i don't remember what it was, $ , i guess, each. and what happened then--yes, then comes the draft time in the u.s. army. mr. jenner. that is right; . mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. and you are in new york city. mr. de mohrenschildt. i am in new york city. i am called to the draft, and they found i have high blood pressure. mr. jenner. with the advent of the war in europe, did you---- mr. de mohrenschildt. yes, i forgot to tell you. mr. jenner. did you volunteer? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. i was mobilized by the polish army in --since being a candidate officer, i was mobilized by the polish army, got the papers in that i have to return to new york, and i did return to new york in . that was just exactly after my texas experience with the humble oil co. mr. jenner. your louisiana experience? mr. de mohrenschildt. louisiana, texas, the same company. and it was just--i was intending to return to poland, because my father was there--i had very close connection with my father. somehow i felt maybe it was my duty to be in the polish army. and it was too late. the last boat, battory, which took the people--i never arrived in poland. i reported to the polish embassy here in washington. it was too late to join the polish army. maybe all for the best, because i probably wouldn't be alive today. mr. jenner. you have some---- mr. de mohrenschildt. you have to refresh my memory, because, as i say, i never expected questions like this. sometimes if i make a mistake, it is not my intention. mr. jenner. well, i don't suggest you are ever making a mistake. you are calling on your own recollection. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes, yes; i am doing my best recollection. mr. jenner. at this particular time, did you have some, oh, let me call it, tenuous connection with some movie business? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; that is right. mr. jenner. facts, inc.? mr. de mohrenschildt. that is right. that is another venture i went into. mr. jenner. this was ? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. what was it? mr. de mohrenschildt. i have a distant cousin by the name of baron maydell. mr. jenner. now, he was a controversial man, was he not? mr. de mohrenschildt. a very controversial person. mr. jenner. in what sense? mr. de mohrenschildt. in the sense that some people considered him pro-nazi. mr. jenner. he was accused of being, was he not, during this period, a german spy? mr. de mohrenschildt. no. i don't know that. but he had been an officer in the czarist army. he was a white russian. and having lost everything through communism, he saw the future of his return to russia, back to his estates, through german intervention. like many other white russians. he possibly was more german than russian--although he had been a russian citizen, officer of the czarist army, and so forth and so on. a controversial person, no question about it. but i liked him. and he offered me to learn something about the making of documentary movies. mr. jenner. documentary? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes--which is facts--what was it called? film facts incorporated. mr. jenner. film facts i think is the name of it. mr. de mohrenschildt. and he had a very interesting movie there of the spanish revolution which he made. and this movie was shown all over the united states and was backed by--this, again, is my recollection, because it almost escaped from my mind. this movie was backed by quite a number of people here. i remember most of them--by grace, who is president of grace lines today. so we decided with maydell that we could make another documentary movie on the resistance of poland. this is already--poland had already been occupied. the movies were made in poland, i think, by americans. i don't recall that exactly--by americans who were there during the occupation of warsaw. and maydell had these movies in his possession, and we decided to make a movie for the benefit of the polish refugees. mr. jenner. resistance movement? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. and collected money to that effect, small amounts of money from the sympathizers of poland. to me it was actually a very pleasant experience. i tried to do my best, number one, to make some money; number two, to help the polish cause. so i went to the polish consulate, made arrangements for the consul to be a sponsor of this movie. and we eventually made this movie, put it together. it was about minutes long--a very interesting movie, very moving picture of the resistance. but financially it was not a success. i don't even recall why. either maydell never gave me any money or something. anyway, we broke up our partnership. the movie did make some money for the polish resistance fund. i think they used it showing around the country. the polish organizations in the united states used that movie to show and collect money for their own purpose. mr. jenner. yes. mr. de mohrenschildt. i remember the picture was called "poland will never die." it was an assembly job. mr. jenner. now, your interest was a business interest? mr. de mohrenschildt. no; we also cut it together. we put the music together. i learned a little bit about the technical end of it. we did not own the studio, but we used the studio on the west side in new york to have the technical facilities. not very complicated. but we did it all together. mr. jenner. was your grandfather born in this country? mr. de mohrenschildt. no; great grandfather, or great, great grandfather. mr. jenner. sergius von mohrenschildt, born somewhere in pennsylvania, later went to russia, entered the oil business? mr. de mohrenschildt. i will be darned. i didn't know that. mr. jenner. i am not saying it is so. mr. de mohrenschildt. i don't remember. we have in the family some baltic swede, an ancestor of ours, who was an officer of the independence army. but his name was not mohrenschildt. he was baron hilienfelt. my brother knows of that, because he is more interested in it. he became an officer in the army of independence, took the name of ross. he was an officer in the army of independence, and then went back to europe and died there. and somebody was telling me there was on his tomb in sweden, i went later on to sweden, and i was curious and inquired about it. it was said he was a lieutenant or captain in the american army of independence. so my brother, i think, because of that, being an older member of the family, had the right to be--what do you call it--a descendant---- mr. jenner. of the american revolution? mr. de mohrenschildt. that is right. he told me either he became a member of it, or could become a member of it. i have to ask him about that. mr. jenner. all right. did you once describe your work in the insurance business as the lousiest, stinkingest, sorriest type of business possible? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. and that wine company--was that the vintage wine, inc. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; i also was doing some selling of wine in vintage wine, inc. mr. jenner. on a commission? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. and you have mentioned the shumaker company. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. is the name pierre fraiss familiar to you? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; this is one of my best friends. mr. jenner. is he still alive? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. what business was he in then? mr. de mohrenschildt. he was then chief of export of schumaker and company. mr. jenner. did mr. fraiss have any connection with the french intelligence in the united states? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. did you become involved with him in that connection? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. when? mr. de mohrenschildt. well, it was just probably in , i presume, in . mr. jenner. what did you do? mr. de mohrenschildt. well, we collected facts on people involved in pro-german activity, and---- mr. jenner. this was anti-german activity? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. on behalf of the french intelligence in the united states? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; i was never an official member of it, you see, but i worked with pierre fraiss, and it was my understanding that it was french intelligence. mr. jenner. and did that work take you around the country? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. tell us about it. mr. de mohrenschildt. well, i think we went to texas together again and tried to contact the oil companies in regard to purchases of oil for the french interests. mr. jenner. were the germans also seeking to obtain oil? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; that is right. mr. jenner. and---- mr. de mohrenschildt. we were trying to out-bid them. i think the united states were not at war yet at the time. mr. jenner. that is right. mr. de mohrenschildt. and so the french intelligence devised a system whereby they could prevent the germans and italians from buying oil by outbidding them on the free market. we went to texas. we had some contacts there with oil companies. and also in california. there we met the superior oil people of california and other people, too, whose names now i have forgotten. mr. jenner. when was that work completed? mr. de mohrenschildt. well, i could not tell you exactly, but i think it is about--it was not completed. we just somehow petered out. mr. jenner. were you compensated? mr. de mohrenschildt. no--just my expenses, traveling expenses, and daily allowance. it was handled by mr. fraiss. but no salary. mr. jenner. had you---- mr. de mohrenschildt. i think this whole thing, when the united states got into war there was no more activity on their part, you know. mr. jenner. well, there was no need to outbid the germans, because they could not buy oil here anyhow. mr. de mohrenschildt. that is right. so that is how it ended. mr. jenner. you mentioned a mrs. williams. was that margaret williams? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. and she made a bequest to you of $ , , wasn't it? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes--i think $ , --i thought it was $ , , frankly. mr. jenner. do you remember being interviewed in february ? mr. de mohrenschildt. by whom? mr. jenner. some agents of the immigration and naturalization service. mr. de mohrenschildt. in ? mr. jenner. yes. mr. de mohrenschildt. they interviewed me a couple of times. mr. jenner. well, you have been interviewed more than once. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. well, at that time you are reported to have said that mrs. williams left you the sum of $ , , and i suggest to you that your recollection was better in than it is now. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. now, at or about the time that you were doing work with mr. fraiss, did you meet a lady by the name of lilia pardo larin? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. she was in this country, was she? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. tell us about that. mr. de mohrenschildt. oh, boy. do you want to have everything about me? okay. i met her through a brazilian friend of mine. mr. jenner. what was his name? mr. de mohrenschildt. the king of bananas of brazil--his name will come back to me. dr.--i forgot his name. anyway, a rich brazilian, medical doctor, very wealthy man, who traveled between brazil and new york. just recently i was talking about him with the brazilian ambassador in haiti, and he says he is still alive and doing very well. dr. palo machado, decio de paulo machado. an enormously wealthy brazilian, who calls himself the banana king, who liked american girls, the good life, and very good businessman at the same time. mr. jenner. you liked american girls, too, didn't you? mr. de mohrenschildt. i am not queer, you know. although some people accuse me of that even--even of that. not as much as some other people, you know--because this girl really was the love of my life--lilia larin. anyway, both machado and i fell in love with this girl. she was a divorcee. mr. jenner. she wasn't divorced as yet, was she? mr. de mohrenschildt. she was divorced already once. but she had a husband some place in the background, who was a frenchman. mr. jenner. guasco? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. with whom i got into a fistfight. well, anyway, the best man won, as it goes in the book, and lilia and i fell in love--i just got a discharge from the military service in the united states, -f, and she invited me to come with her to mexico. this was my experience with the fbi. really, it is so ridiculous that it is beyond comprehension. mr. jenner. well, on your way to mexico---- mr. de mohrenschildt. around corpus christi--really, if we didn't have a sad story to discuss, the death of the president, you could laugh about some of the activity of the fbi, and the money they spend following false trails. mr. jenner. well, they don't know they are false when they are following them. mr. de mohrenschildt. that is right. i don't know whose advice they followed. but, anyway, here we were about ready to enter mexico and stopped for awhile in corpus christi. and there we decided to go to the beach, from corpus christi. i think my visa was not ready yet. mr. jenner. you stayed at the nueces hotel in corpus christi? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; and we went to the beach. on the way back from the beach, all of a sudden our car was stopped by some characters. mr. jenner. excuse me. you went to aransas pass? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. and when you were in aransas pass, what did you do? mr. de mohrenschildt. we swam; and probably stayed on the beach enjoying the sunshine. mr. jenner. now---- mr. de mohrenschildt. what do they say we did? mr. jenner. did you make--take some photographs when you were in aransas pass? mr. de mohrenschildt. possibly; of each other. mr. jenner. you took no photographs of a coast guard station at aransas pass? mr. de mohrenschildt. i don't recall that. mr. jenner. did you make any sketches? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes--because i like to sketch. by the way, i forgot to tell you, i like to sketch. i sketched the dunes, the coastline, but not the coast guard station. who gives a damn about the coast guard station in aransas pass? mr. jenner. i can tell you that is what got you into trouble. mr. de mohrenschildt. is that so? well, you know, you are the first one to tell me about that. mr. jenner. i want to know this. this interest that you say you have, which i will bring out later, in sketching, in painting, water colors, and otherwise--you and this lady with whom you were in love were down at aransas pass, you went down there for the purpose of having an outing? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. i even have those sketches today, of the bay of corpus christi, of the seashore near aransas pass. mr. jenner. you apparently were not aware of the fact this country was then at war. mr. de mohrenschildt. but nobody told me there was any military installations around aransas pass. mr. jenner. well, you were seen sketching the countryside. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. and that aroused suspicion. mr. de mohrenschildt. that is right. that is the whole thing. mr. jenner. now, you were driving cross-country, were you not, with this lady friend of yours? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. and on the way back then from aransas pass---- mr. de mohrenschildt. some characters stopped the car and came out of the bushes, and they said, "you are a german spy." they said, "you are a german citizen, you are a german spy." it was very strange. here is my polish passport. so--they never said anything about sketching. i thought they were from some comedy actors. mr. jenner. didn't they identify themselves? mr. de mohrenschildt. i think they said they were from the fbi. mr. jenner. they might have been from some other government service. mr. de mohrenschildt. maybe some other government service. but i have the impression they told me they were from the fbi, and they followed me all the way from new york--all the way from new york. mr. jenner. in any event, five men stopped you at that time, searched your car? mr. de mohrenschildt. searched the car, found absolutely nothing, except the water colors, the sketches. i still have the sketches. mr. jenner. with that experience, did you proceed on into mexico? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. and---- mr. de mohrenschildt. they were very insulting to this mexican lady, very insulting. and i think she made a complaint about them later on to the mexican ambassador. and being a vicious mexican girl, she doesn't forget that. i think she told them they stole something from her. that i do not recall exactly. mr. jenner. as near as i can tell, she never made any such complaint officially. mr. de mohrenschildt. i think she told me she will complain officially. mr. jenner. she complained, but she never complained anything was stolen. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. you reached mexico city? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. and--with this lady. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. and you remained in mexico how long? mr. de mohrenschildt. well, that is months, months--until they expelled me from mexico. mr. jenner. does this refresh your recollection--that you made a statement in when you were questioned that you remained in mexico city for approximately months, not doing much of anything except painting and going around with lilia? mr. de mohrenschildt. that is right. i did something. i invested some money in a sugar factory there. i visited a sugar company there, and the manager of the sugar company told me to invest some money in that outfit, because it was going to--the stock was going to go up, which i did. i made some nice money out of that investment. mr. jenner. you had funds when you went into mexico, did you not? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. you had some letters of credit? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. would that amount to around $ , ? mr. de mohrenschildt. probably. mr. jenner. did you travel to various places in mexico during this months with this lady? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. now---- mr. de mohrenschildt. i had an apartment on my own in mexico city, on avenue de--the main street of mexico city. i don't recall the name. paseo de la reforma. mr. jenner. towards the end of that months you ran into some difficulty in mexico, did you not? mr. de mohrenschildt. boy, did i get in difficulty. mr. jenner. was there a man by the name of maxino comacho? mr. de mohrenschildt. general in the mexican army. mr. jenner. and as a result of--just give me that in capsule form. mr. de mohrenschildt. i think he wanted to take my girl friend away from me. we were going to get married. mr. jenner. you were serious about that? mr. de mohrenschildt. very serious. she was getting a divorce. i think by the time she got to mexico--she already got a mexican divorce. i am sure she did. she was already free. mr. jenner. she had a mexican divorce, but there was some question about whether it was good in the united states? mr. de mohrenschildt. that is right; something like that. anyway, she was getting a divorce. she was an exceedingly beautiful person. we thought about getting married. and then this character intervened and had me thrown out of the country. mr. jenner. i am not interested in his accusation, but he made some accusation? mr. de mohrenschildt. he did, really? mr. jenner. i am asking you. mr. de mohrenschildt. no; no accusation. he said, "you are persona non grata in mexico." i actually went to the american embassy, as far as i remember, and said, "i am a resident of the united states, and why am i being thrown out of the country?" i don't know if they have done anything about it. anyway, they suggested for me to leave, and go back to the states. mr. jenner. you didn't leave immediately, did you? mr. de mohrenschildt. i went into hiding for a few days, because some mexican friends tried to have it all fixed. i remember the names of those mexicans who tried to help me. mr. jenner. manuel garza; was he one of them? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. and your attorney? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; and cuellar, another attorney. he is still a good friend of mine. mr. jenner. you then returned to the united states? mr. de mohrenschildt. they said, "that is the best way for you, to leave, because you cannot fight against the constitutional forces of mexico." mr. jenner. while in mexico, you engaged in no espionage for anybody? mr. de mohrenschildt. no. mr. jenner. you were in love with this lady? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and you saw her frequently, and her friends and other friends, and did some traveling around mexico? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. where did you get the money to do that? mr. de mohrenschildt. well, $ , , you know. and then we shared alike. and i told you that life in mexico was very cheap at the time. you could live on a hundred dollars a month. one of my best friends there at the time was a young macarthur boy. mr. jenner. general macarthur's son? mr. de mohrenschildt. nephew, the son of macarthur, the playwright. he was also living in mexico, very close friends. we made some trips together. the son of john macarthur. mr. jenner. you eventually returned to america, to the united states? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. you went back to new york? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. by train? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. as a matter of fact, you went by chair car? mr. de mohrenschildt. that i didn't remember. how did you know that? i don't remember, frankly. those fbi people are excellent in following a chair car. but, believe me, they are very often---- mr. jenner. was it about this time when you returned that you started to work on your book, "a son of the revolution"? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. now, we are in what year--about , ? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes, about that. mr. jenner. , i think. now, upon your return to new york, what did you do? mr. de mohrenschildt. i was working on that book. i sold that interest in the sugar company--that is, the mexican outfit i told you about--and then i remember once i went to palm beach. mr. jenner. now---- mr. de mohrenschildt. what else did i do then? mr. jenner. when you reached palm beach you met the lady who became your first wife, dorothy pierson? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. tell me who was dorothy pierson? mr. de mohrenschildt. dorothy pierson was an attractive girl, the daughter of a local real estate man whose mother was married to an italian, cantagalli, lorenzo cantagalli, from florence. and the mother and daughter came back to the united states during the war. she was the daughter of countess cantagalli by the first husband, who was an american. that is why her name was pierson. and, anyway, dorothy and i fell in love with each other and got married. mr. jenner. she was quite young, was she not? mr. de mohrenschildt. very young. mr. jenner. about or ? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. and you subsequently married where? mr. de mohrenschildt. in new york. mr. jenner. in new york city? mr. de mohrenschildt. new york city. mr. jenner. and that marriage subsequently ended in divorce, did it? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. when? mr. de mohrenschildt. about a year later. mr. jenner. you were married just a short time? mr. de mohrenschildt. just a short time. a child was born. mr. jenner. there was a child born of that marriage? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. and that child's name was alexandra? mr. de mohrenschildt. that is right. mr. jenner. is she still alive? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. i will deal with her subsequently, if i might. the divorce took place--well, we might as well close up with lilia. you never married her? mr. de mohrenschildt. no. mr. jenner. when you got back to the united states---- mr. de mohrenschildt. we pursued correspondence, and i intended to marry her, and go back to mexico. but there is no way of getting back to mexico. mr. jenner. the records indicate that you made some effort here in washington to obtain reentry into mexico, and you were unable to do so. mr. de mohrenschildt. that is right. mr. jenner. and that lilia attempted to assist you. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. and she attempted to come into this country? mr. de mohrenschildt. that is right. mr. jenner. she also was persona non grata at the moment, is that right? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. she had two sons? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. one of them was in racine, wis. mr. de mohrenschildt. both of them were in military academy--young boys. mr. jenner. and in any event, that eventually petered out? mr. de mohrenschildt. that is right. mr. jenner. and you met dorothy pierson in palm beach, fla.? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. and you subsequently married her in new york city, on the th of june ? mr. de mohrenschildt. that is the date. the dates of my marriage are very vague now in my mind. i am taking your word for it. mr. jenner. well, i don't want you to take my word for it. mr. de mohrenschildt. it is probably correct. you must have it some place. mr. jenner. do you recall your daughter's birthday--it was on christmas day, was it not? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. ? mr. de mohrenschildt. that is right. mr. jenner. during the period you were married to dorothy in new york city, what did you do, if anything, other than work on your proposed book? mr. de mohrenschildt. well, i had an exhibition of my paintings. mr. jenner. now, i want to get into that. while you were in mexico, did you do some painting? mr. de mohrenschildt. i did a lot of painting--a whole tremendous file of paintings in mexico. mr. jenner. and did you subsequently exhibit those paintings? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. where? mr. de mohrenschildt. newton gallery, new york, th street. mr. jenner. and did those paintings receive comment from the critics? mr. de mohrenschildt. the newspapers wrote about them, that they were original, but the sales were hardly successful, if i may say so. mr. jenner. do you still have some of those paintings? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; some i have given away, but i still have some. mr. jenner. they are water colors? mr. de mohrenschildt. water colors, washes; yes. but no military installation--the tropical jungle. girls, tropical jungle, mexican types--i am very fond of mexico. roderick macarthur and i tried to make a trip at the time through the wilderness of mexico together in an old ford which belonged to him; the road did not exist yet, so we went together in this old broken down ford, drove, drove and drove a couple of days with no roads, and finally one evening---- mr. jenner. this is in mexico? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; during that time. mr. jenner. during the months you were there? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; we hit a steel pole sticking out in the middle of the trail, and the whole car disintegrated under us. so we walked back a couple of days in order to get back to mexico city. we left the car right there. mr. jenner. now---- mr. de mohrenschildt. if you see him in chicago--i will write to him again; and i hope to see him. mr. jenner. you came to texas in , did you not? mr. de mohrenschildt. . mr. jenner. do you recall making a loan at the---- mr. de mohrenschildt. yes, yes. mr. jenner. russian student fund? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. after my divorce i decided that i am still interested in this oil business, and all my pursuits in various directions are not too successful, so i should go back to school and study geology and petroleum engineering. mr. jenner. had you made inquiry at the colorado school of mines? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. tried colorado school of mines, rice institute, and university of texas. mr. jenner. all right. you are now about years old, somewhere in that neighborhood? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. during these years you led sort of a bohemian life, did you not? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. well, you see--bohemian and trying to make a buck, as you might call it. mr. jenner. i am trying to bring out your personality. mr. de mohrenschildt. that is right. but you see the main reason i actually came to the united states is to look for a country which did not have--which was a melting pot, because i am a melting pot myself, as you can see. i changed from one country to another, a complete mixture. so i thought that would fit me right. and eventually it did. it took a long time to get adjusted to it. the first five years are very difficult in the united states. i didn't speak english very well. and it was just tough going. fortunately i had friends, acquaintances, and a lot of relations. but, otherwise, i probably would have starved. and it did actually happen that i did starve occasionally. so i decided to go---- mr. jenner. you were young and full of energy? mr. de mohrenschildt. while working for the humble oil co. i said that a man without the education in that particular field--i did not have the background of geology or petroleum engineering, except that i kept on studying by myself. i didn't have much chance to succeed. i was wrong, by the way. i should have followed mr. blaffer's advice and gone in the oil business, and i would have been a multimillionaire today. mr. jenner. well, you might still be. mr. de mohrenschildt. well, i probably will be. but really that was--he was the man, the only man who gave me the right advice--of all my friends and acquaintances. he said, "george, go on your own and try to speculate on oil leases and drill wells on your own," which is the basis of the oil industry. "we will give you a lease, you can promote some money to drill on it, and here you have it." and that is what happened. that is the origin of many, many of my friends in texas who are very wealthy. mr. jenner. all right. you came to texas---- mr. de mohrenschildt. came to texas---- mr. jenner. . mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. that was following your divorce from dorothy pierson? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. got a loan. mr. jenner. you entered---- mr. de mohrenschildt. entered the university of texas, and school of geology, and petroleum engineering as my minor--major in petroleum geology and minor in petroleum engineering. and with a fantastic effort and speed i succeeded in getting my master's degree in petroleum geology and minor in petroleum engineering in , i think. mr. jenner. you received your master's in , did you not? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. and in petroleum geology? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; with minor in petroleum engineering. mr. jenner. did you pursue your studies further? mr. de mohrenschildt. no; well, i wrote a dissertation. i pursue my studies as the time goes by. but that was the end of my education in american schools. mr. jenner. now, while you were at the university of texas, did you serve as an instructor---- mr. de mohrenschildt. in french. mr. jenner. you had no tenure there? you were not a professor? mr. de mohrenschildt. no; an instructor in french, to make some additional money. mr. jenner. when did you complete your work at the university of texas--all of your studies? mr. de mohrenschildt. in the fall of . mr. jenner. how long were you at the university of texas? mr. de mohrenschildt. i think about years. mr. jenner. now, following your obtaining your master's degree at the university of texas, did you enter into business? mr. de mohrenschildt. no; i got a job waiting for me in venezuela, the pantepec oil co. in venezuela. mr. jenner. what was the nature of that work? mr. de mohrenschildt. i worked as a field engineer. mr. jenner. in venezuela? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. very good salary; pleasant conditions. but eventually fought with the vice president. mr. jenner. what? mr. de mohrenschildt. eventually i got into some personal trouble with the vice president, and this time was not kicked out but through mutual agreement it was decided between warren smith, who was my president, and a close friend, that i should resign and also---- mr. jenner. when did you leave that position? mr. de mohrenschildt. some time in . mr. jenner. i interrupted you. you were going to add something. mr. de mohrenschildt. some time in . and also i wanted to come back to the states to renew my citizenship paper application, because i would lose my citizenship papers by staying in venezuela too long, you see. it was an american company all right, but i think it was incorporated in venezuela. mr. jenner. did you have to have a passport to get to that position in venezuela? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; well, i think i still have my polish passport. but i had a reentry permit to the states. mr. jenner. so you returned to the united states in ? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. then what did you do? mr. de mohrenschildt. well, i arrived back through new york, but stayed a very short time, and went to texas again. mr. jenner. what town? mr. de mohrenschildt. to houston. to look for a job. i did not want to be in a tropical part of the united states, in a hot part. i was trying to find a job somewhere in the northern part of the united states. and then i heard that there is a job available as an assistant to the chairman of the rangely field engineering committee. mr. jenner. at rangely, colo.? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. and what was the field engineer's name? he is now dead, is he not? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; joe zorichak. mr. jenner. there was an assistant. what was his name? there were two of you assisting the chairman? mr. de mohrenschildt. i don't remember the other assistant's name. i was the only one in the office. later on--we were part of the group of all the oil companies operating there. but we were the only ones actually working for the committee. i don't remember. mr. jenner. i will find it here in a moment. mr. de mohrenschildt. you see, this committee was a consulting organization set up by, i think, or oil companies operating in rangely field, which is the largest field in colorado, in the rocky mountains. it still is. mr. jenner. does the name james gibson sound familiar to you? mr. de mohrenschildt. no; gibson--james gibson; yes. but he was not in our outfit. he was an engineer for standard oil of california. but he worked very close to us. in other words, he was an employee of the standard oil of california. mr. jenner. does the name j. m. bunce sound familiar to you? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. who is he? mr. de mohrenschildt. he was a representative of a pumping outfit from california who sold oil well pumps. mr. jenner. now, this rangely engineering committee was formed by the various oil companies? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. and they were operating in the rangely, colo., oil field, is that correct? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. and for the purpose of compiling statistics and engineering data for the entire field? mr. de mohrenschildt. no, yes; this and also to allocate production to various wells in the field, because we didn't have any regulatory body in colorado at the time. we actually applied a certain formula to each well to see how much each well would be allowed to produce. this was our main job, you know. then, of course, our job was to coordinate the technical advances in that field and promote the new methods of drilling producing, to cut down expenses in the field. among other things, we introduced diamond drilling there, drilling with diamond bits, which eventually became very, very successful. mr. jenner. now, this was what-- ? mr. de mohrenschildt. , . i stayed there, i think, about - / years, something like that. years, maybe. mr. jenner. now, at this time you met and married your second wife, did you not? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. phyllis washington? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. now, tell us about that a little bit. mr. de mohrenschildt. i went on a vacation to new york, met a very pretty girl, and she was willing to follow me in the wilderness of colorado, which she did. she was young and a little bit wild. but very, very attractive and adventurous. and she came with me to colorado--without being married. her father was with the state department, walter washington. but i didn't know him. mr. jenner. she was an adopted child? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. her name originally was wasserman? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; something like that. and she was a beautiful girl who decided to come to colorado with me. she stayed with me, we fell in love. she created a terrible confusion in colorado. imagine an international beauty with bikinis. i don't know if it is for the record. with bikinis, walking around the oil fields. but she was a wonderful girl, wonderful girl. she gave up the possibility of going to spain, where her father was appointed charge d' affaires at the time. she decided she would rather stay with me in colorado in the wilderness. and i will tell you, that was a terrible place. that was the last boomtown in america. rangely, the last boomtown in the united states. we lived in shacks, we lived in -degree below zero temperature, mud. it is the roughest place you ever saw in your life. mr. jenner. you eventually tired of rangely, colo., and moved over to aspen, did you not? mr. de mohrenschildt. no; i didn't move to aspen. i just had a little cabin in aspen. i had a cabin in aspen, and would go there on weekends. but then i became chairman. joe zorichak resigned his position and moved to dallas as assistant president of the american petroleum institute, assistant to the president of the api. and i was appointed to replace him. mr. jenner. was it about this time that you took residence in aspen? mr. de mohrenschildt. well, no; about that time. i would say--i didn't take residence. i just had a cabin in aspen. but i commuted between rangely and aspen. mr. jenner. that is quite a commutation. it is miles, isn't it? mr. de mohrenschildt. nothing for the oil field. mr. jenner. but it takes a long time to get miles. mr. de mohrenschildt. hours. but naturally i would go there on the weekend and come back. probably they accuse me of spending all my time in aspen. but, anyway, what finally happened is, good or bad, we decided to sever connections with the rangely engineering committee. they decided to stop completely the rangely engineering committee. mr. jenner. you had some difficulties with them before they decided to break it up, didn't you? mr. de mohrenschildt. i don't remember too much of a difficulty. mr. jenner. was there something about your spending too much time over at aspen, and not being---- mr. de mohrenschildt. well, they never told me that. but possibly. mr. jenner. the severance of your relationship was mutual? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes, i think so. i don't think--you may call it i was fired, but i don't think so. as far as i remember, we just got together with the manager of texaco in denver and he told me, "george, we are just going to stop the operation at rangely field of the engineering committee." i was the only one left, you see. so i said fine, stop it. mr. jenner. and this was about when? mr. de mohrenschildt. well, i forgot to tell you. since you are interested in my character--is that it? mr. jenner. yes, of course. mr. de mohrenschildt. at rangely. colo., it stopped being an operating oil field, and it became a statistical job. when i moved there first it was the greatest boomtown and the greatest drilling place in the united states. we had rigs going. it was very interesting. every day we had new problems. it was a very active life. then at the end of my stay there was no work practically except to compile the statistical report. so naturally i started going to aspen more often. i don't think i ever had any complaint against me. mr. jenner. you were interested a great deal initially when the field was being developed. mr. de mohrenschildt. that is right. mr. jenner. when it degenerated, if i may use that term, into a statistical assembly, you lose interest, spent more time over at aspen, and there were some disagreements about that, a difference of opinion, and your employers questioned it. mr. de mohrenschildt. that is right. mr. jenner. was there any problem about your savoir-faire, for example, attitude with respect to keeping expenses? mr. de mohrenschildt. maybe so. but you know, our salary was very small there, and so we had to show certain expenses. they never questioned me. but possibly they considered my living expenses were too high. but i was the only one to do the job, instead of two. i kept the budget, more or less, at the same level, maybe lower. mr. jenner. now, you terminated your employment in january , did you not? mr. de mohrenschildt. i think so. the date is not clear to me. mr. jenner. well, this may refresh your recollection. had you become an american citizen in the meantime? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. and was that on the th of july at denver? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes, in denver, colo. mr. jenner. now, your employment with the rangely oil field committee terminated after you became a citizen, did it not? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and does that refresh your recollection--it occurred about months later? mr. de mohrenschildt. that is right. mr. jenner. when your employment in the rangely oil field committee terminated, what did you do? mr. de mohrenschildt. then i realized that i could not remain married to phyllis, because she was a girl of--who needed money, who needed a good way of life, needed luxury--she was used to luxury. and i asked her to go back to her parents, to new york, and that i will try to make a success out of--i decided to go on my own as a consultant--that i should try to make a success out of the consulting business. but i just should do it by myself, without her being present. and so i moved to denver, colo., gave up that establishment in aspen, and got some help from my friends, and with very little money i started my own consulting firm. mr. jenner. in denver? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; in denver. mr. jenner. in the meantime, did the--was the marriage to phyllis washington terminated? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; either in the meantime or just right at that time. mr. jenner. was that by her suit? mr. de mohrenschildt. no; by my suit. mr. jenner. you filed the suit? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. and where did you file that? mr. de mohrenschildt. in the court in denver. she was gone. i returned in the meantime to see her, to see whether we can patch up things. mr. jenner. you returned to new york city? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; to see if we could patch up things. we became very good friends with the other side of her family, the wassermans, very interesting people who are still good friends of mine. bill wasserman is a banker in new york, used to be ambassador to australia during the roosevelt administration, i think--or to new zealand. and, frankly, he also, and her aunt, who were taking care of her--because, in the meantime, her stepfather was in europe, they had also their own difficulties. mr. jenner. their own marital difficulties? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; they decided we better forget about this marriage. we remained very fond of each other. but we finally came to an agreement to have a divorce. and i filed a suit for divorce. mr. jenner. when was that decree entered? mr. de mohrenschildt. well, that i do not remember. mr. jenner. when did you get your divorce decree from phyllis washington? mr. de mohrenschildt. in a court in denver, colo., but i do not recall the date. mr. jenner. or ? mr. de mohrenschildt. something around that. mr. jenner. were any children born of that marriage? mr. de mohrenschildt. no children. we were married in grand junction, colo. and the divorce was entered--the reason was desertion, which was actually true, because she did not come back to me. she stayed in new york, or eventually--she drank, also, an awful lot. today she is an alcoholic--poor girl. mr. jenner. you entered the oil consulting business in denver? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. first of all, as just an ordinary consultant. i got helped by a friend of mine who has a small oil company in denver. mr. jenner. what was his name? mr. de mohrenschildt. jimmy donahue. and he facilitated by giving his office, the secretary and so on. because it is rather expensive to start on your own. but very soon afterwards i started getting consulting jobs--doing evaluations on the wells and things like that. and one night--this will be interesting for you, how to start an oil business--one night i was driving through oklahoma, tired as hell, and i said to myself, by god, everybody is making money in the oil business except me, i am just a flunky here for all these big operators--i should go in the oil business on my own, really in the oil business, drilling and producing, which was interesting to me. and then i recalled that my ex-nephew, eddie hooker, in new york, asked me to go in business with him. he had visited me in colorado and was very much interested in the work i had done. i gave him a telephone call from some place in oklahoma. i said, "eddie, how about it?" he was working for merrill lynch at the time. and he said, "george, i am ready. i am tired of merrill lynch." mr. jenner. merrill lynch, fenner and beane at that time? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. "i am tired of that merrill lynch, fenner and beane." we formed a limited partnership together. mr. jenner. and that is the partnership of hooker and de mohrenschildt? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. and that was when-- ? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; i think so-- . mr. jenner. and did it last very long? mr. de mohrenschildt. it lasted, i think, years. mr. jenner. about years? mr. de mohrenschildt. or years. mr. jenner. and---- mr. de mohrenschildt. now, we made money, we lost money, but it was a pleasant relationship. we are still very good friends. mr. jenner. what did you do in connection with that partnership? mr. de mohrenschildt. well, i did buying of the leases, doing the drilling, and helped him in new york, also, to raise money. mr. jenner. he handled the financial end, or raising of money end? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. and you the field work? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. sometimes--we opened an office in new york, a small office. he was in new york most of the time. i was in denver. our first well was a dry hole, a disastrous dry hole. but our second well was a producer. we made some production. but never anything big. mr. jenner. now---- mr. de mohrenschildt. eventually i returned to texas from denver, because i had always retained some good friends in texas, and they suggested, one of them who participated in our well, first venture--suggested that, "george, you will do better in texas, because wyoming is too expensive"--a well costs $ , or $ , in wyoming, you know--in wyoming or colorado. mr. jenner. now, when you were in partnership with mr. hooker, your field work and discovery work was in wyoming and colorado, is that correct? mr. de mohrenschildt. no. we started by drilling our first well in wyoming, operating from denver. and we had--we were snowbound there, we paid the rig time for a hell of a long time. to make the story short, our first venture was quite a failure. one of the reasons we finally split partnership with eddie hooker is that he is a very wealthy boy. he comes from a very wealthy family. and he wanted the oil business to make millions. my reason to be in the oil business is to make a reasonable living, and eventually build up some production. on our first venture in wyoming, on the very first one, after we bought the leases, and before starting drilling, we got an offer from another company to sell out for a very substantial profit, without drilling a well--they would do it. naturally, i told ed we should do that instead of running a tremendous risk of drilling our own well. well, he said if they want to buy it it means that we have something there, the usual story. i was a little more conservative--i said better sell out and try to find something less risky. he said if we hit it, we are millionaires right away--which was true--we had a huge block, of , acres, something like that. well, from then on, the next venture was in texas, and we drilled quite a few successful wells, quite a few dry holes, too. mr. jenner. you returned to texas? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. what year? mr. de mohrenschildt. abilene, tex., we had the headquarters--that was the center of the small size independent operators at the time. mr. jenner. what was the name of the hotel at which you stayed? mr. de mohrenschildt. wooten hotel. mr. jenner. and the partnership was still in existence? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. our partnership was broken up after i married miss sharples. it was, frankly, a personal thing. mr. jenner. i think this is a good time to stop, because that is the next phase i want to get into. we can go to lunch. (whereupon, at : p.m., the proceeding was recessed.) testimony of george s. de mohrenschildt resumed the proceeding reconvened at p.m. mr. jenner. on the record. before we start on the next phase of your life, i would like to go back a minute to your father. you left there about or ? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; but i came back many times. mr. jenner. you came back to see him? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; almost every summer vacation. mr. jenner. now, what happened to your father, with particular reference to world war ii? mr. de mohrenschildt. he was living in wilno, the same town that i went to school in, during the war, and i arranged for his visa to come to the united states at the time. mr. jenner. now, is this at a time when you were in this country? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; i was in this country, and i knew that--this was before the outbreak of the war. i arranged for the visa to come to america, and he did not take advantage of it. mr. jenner. that invasion was in september of . mr. de mohrenschildt. ; yes. mr. jenner. and you made these arrangements before september ? mr. de mohrenschildt. before september . and instead of that, you know, he did not take advantage of those arrangements. maybe he was too old, decided not to come to the united states. and then there was the german invasion of poland and the russian invasion on the other, and he happened to be in the russian part of poland, and naturally went into hiding. mr. jenner. excuse me. you mean russian part in the sense that the russians invaded poland? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. to meet the germans who were invading poland from the other side? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. so he then became engulfed by the russians? mr. de mohrenschildt. that is right. he became engulfed in advance of the russian army and had to go into hiding because he had a sentence of life exile to siberia against him. and at that time the germans and the russians were not at war yet, so the russians and the germans made an agreement that all the people of german or baltic or swedish origin could go to germany, and they could declare themselves openly and go to a special german commission set up for that effect in various towns. mr. jenner. you say declare themselves openly. what do you mean by that? mr. de mohrenschildt. declare themselves that they they are willing to go and live in germany, instead of living in russia. mr. jenner. declare allegiance to the german government? mr. de mohrenschildt. that is right--declare allegiance to the german government, and declare themselves volkdeutsche, which means of germanic origin. russia had many millions of people of that type, an enormous german colony. so the germans did it in order to get all those germans from the volga province into their own country. and all the other people, like my father. and he declared himself willing to go to germany, and the germans took him into germany. he would rather be with the germans than with the communists, and spent the rest of his life---- mr. jenner. was your father still anti-communist? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; very strongly anti-communist----exceedingly strongly anti-communist, almost fanatically so. naturally, he had the sentence against him. and then he spent the rest of his life in germany and was killed at the end of the war in an air raid, as far as we know--some air raid hit that place where he lived. mr. jenner. do you know what town it was? mr. de mohrenschildt. no; i don't know the town, but it is an old castle in oldenburg. it is near the danish border. my brother is going to go right now there to visit his tomb, because neither of us had the time to go and see that place. but he is in europe now, and he will go and see the place where he was buried. eventually, we received some of his papers and documents and letters through some german friends who stayed there with him. mr. jenner. now, i take it he was--we can at least fairly say that he had sympathies, or was sympathetic with the german cause? mr. de mohrenschildt. no; i remember we exchanged letters with him during the war through some friends in argentina and in japan, before japan got into the war. my father wrote me a letter in which he said, "george, the nazis are no good, and germany is going to lose the war, but i prefer to be in germany than in soviet russia. at least i am free and nobody is bothering me." it was the policy of the germans to protect the people who had some positions in czarist russia. but he never became pro-nazi. he was too clear thinking for that. he liked the germans all right, but he was not pro-nazi. but he hated communism. that was his life's hatred. mr. jenner. now, we have you back in new york city--this is when we went to lunch--around -- , . mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. your partnership with mr. hooker had terminated. mr. de mohrenschildt. no, no; still active. i think it was in --because i was not married--we still had the partnership. i was visiting ed hooker in new york at that particular time, and through him i met my next wife, my last wife. mr. jenner. all right. now, who was she? mr. de mohrenschildt. wynne sharples. mr. jenner. she at that time was a student? mr. de mohrenschildt. she was just graduating from the medical school at the college of physicians and surgeons, columbia university. that was her last year. and she was late in her studies. she was or years old at that time. so she had missed a couple of years, you see. and we fell in love with each other and decided to get married. mr. jenner. tell me about the sharples family. mr. de mohrenschildt. the sharples family is from philadelphia, philadelphia quakers. he is in the centrifugal processing business and also in the oil business. and i had dealings with his nephew for many years. mr. jenner. what is his name? mr. de mohrenschildt. butler, samuel butler, jr. he runs the oil end of mr. sharples' operations. and they had a small interest in rangely field. that is how i got acquainted with mr. butler. so we knew about each other before--my wife's father, and so on and so forth--and--the daughter asked his advice, whether she should marry such an adventurous character like me, and the father said, all right--obviously had sufficient good information from butler about me. butler was my best man at the wedding. mr. jenner. best man at your wedding to miss sharples? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; sam butler. there were several ushers. he was one of the ushers. i don't remember who was the best man. my brother was the best man. he was one of ushers. so we got married. mr. jenner. was the sharples family wealthy? mr. de mohrenschildt. very wealthy. mr. jenner. socially prominent? mr. de mohrenschildt. socially prominent. but not too interested in society, because they are quakers, you know. but my wife is interested---- mr. jenner. she has a nickname? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; didi. mr. jenner. some of the people apparently--voluntarily--they know her with that nickname--didi. mr. de mohrenschildt. that is right. we got married, i think, after her graduation immediately in the unitarian church in chestnut hills. mr. jenner. what is that--a suburb of philadelphia? mr. de mohrenschildt. a suburb of philadelphia. and she moved to dallas, and i moved to dallas, also, from abilene, where i used to live, so she could continue her work in the medical field, and to take her residence in the hospital in dallas. she was a resident physician---- mr. jenner. in what hospital? mr. de mohrenschildt. in the baylor hospital. mr. jenner. baylor university? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. was it university connected? mr. de mohrenschildt. i don't remember. but it is baylor hospital, in dallas. it is not the same as baylor university. it is called baylor hospital. mr. jenner. all right. mr. de mohrenschildt. and she stayed there as a resident. i worked very often in my office in dallas, instead of abilene, and continued my partnership with ed hooker. but there developed a tremendous animosity between ed hooker's wife and my wife, didi. mr. jenner. and ed hooker's wife was---- mr. de mohrenschildt. was an ex-model, very attractive girl, marion. and probably my wife snubbed her or something. she didn't come from such a prominent family. anyway, there was a great deal of animosity there. and ed told me, "george, you are a fool to marry this girl--she is nuts." she had had nervous breakdowns. mr. jenner. this is mr. hooker's wife? mr. de mohrenschildt. no; that is my ex-wife, didi sharples. she is very high strung--she is a very high-strung person, and had nervous breakdowns while going to medical school. i don't know if it is interesting for you, all those details. mr. jenner. well, i think not as to that. i am interested, though--she came to dallas with you? mr. de mohrenschildt. she came to dallas to live with me. we had an apartment first. then we bought a house jointly, a farm, a small farm outside of dallas. and then she had--we had two children, sergei, and a girl, nadejeda, whom we called nadya because the name is very difficult. it is my aunt's name, and sergei is my father's name. mr. jenner. when were those children born? mr. de mohrenschildt. one year difference--in and . mr. jenner. your son was born in and your daughter in ? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. i think you were about to tell me some differences arose, you thought, between mr. hooker's wife and your wife. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. and did that have an effect on your partnership? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; it was more or less, i would say, a social problem and personal dislike. ed is very much devoted to his wife. he told me one day, "we cannot continue this partnership in such unpleasant circumstances, and i think we should break our partnership and sell out what we have." we had some oil properties and we sold it out and divided the proceeds. oh, yes--also, ed was dissatisfied that i moved away from the oilfield--another reason we broke our partnership. because i was staying in the oilfields before that all the time. but now i moved to dallas, and i could not be right in the center of the oil activity, according to him. it turned out to be that this actually was much better for the oil business, to be in dallas than to be in abilene. mr. jenner. why is that? mr. de mohrenschildt. well, because we are more or less in the center of things than just in a small hick town, you see. mr. jenner. you---- mr. de mohrenschildt. at the same time about, when we were breaking this partnership, my wife's uncle, col. edward j. walz, from philadelphia, who is an investment man and a man who is fascinated by the oil business, offered me to form a partnership with him, and we formed a partnership just about the same time. mr. jenner. have you identified this new man? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; col. edward j. walz, this was my wife's uncle, miss sharples' uncle--much younger than his--than her mother, but a man of substance, from philadelphia--with whom we developed friendly relationship. he liked me and i liked him. and we decided to form a partnership, and we called this partnership waldem oil co.--with the idea of doing the same thing i did with ed hooker--that i would do the fieldwork and he would do, more or less, the financial end of the business in philadelphia. we had several very successful dealings together. on our first drilling venture we found oil. i kept producing that little field for quite some time. mr. jenner. what field? mr. de mohrenschildt. post field, in texas--a small part of this field belonged to us, and we kept on producing. we did other operations in the oil business, selling leases, buying leases, and things like that. but we didn't do anything spectacular because he never could provide any large amounts of money for anything spectacular. we did small things. it was a small operation. but we always made money together. eventually, after my wife and i got divorced---- mr. jenner. now, you mention divorce. you and wynne sharples were divorced? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. and when did that take place? mr. de mohrenschildt. that, i think, was in , i guess, or . we were married for years. mr. jenner. well, it must have been , then. mr. de mohrenschildt. , yes; it turned out to be that both of our children had cystic fibrosis--it is a terrible illness of genetic nature. the children who have it have no hope to recover, as yet. now, my ex-wife and i started a foundation, national foundation for cystic fibrosis in dallas, of which jacqueline kennedy was the honorary chairman. now, my ex-wife says that i didn't have much to do with this foundation, this cystic fibrosis foundation, but actually i did, because i collected most of the money from my dallas friends. it started with very little--we started with $ , or $ , , and now it is a $ million foundation, with headquarters in new york. last year i was chairman of this foundation in dallas for the first public subscription to our cystic fibrosis fund for the dallas children, and we got $ , . now my son, sergei, died from cystic fibrosis in . by the way, the reason for our divorce, in addition to whatever disagreements we had, which was not very important, was the fact that we both obviously have a tendency for cystic fibrosis, a genetic affinity for cystic fibrosis, and the children born from such a marriage have a very poor chance to survive. she wanted more children. she was scared to have more children with cystic fibrosis. the little girl is still alive. she lives in philadelphia. mr. jenner. she is with her mother? mr. de mohrenschildt. with her mother, yes. mr. jenner. is her mother pursuing her profession in philadelphia? mr. de mohrenschildt. her mother is not actually practicing but she is in charge of the cystic fibrosis research institute in philadelphia, she is a trustee of temple university. but her husband, dr. denton---- mr. jenner. she remarried? mr. de mohrenschildt. she remarried. mr. jenner. what is his full name? mr. de mohrenschildt. dr. robert denton. he is the doctor who treated our children for cystic fibrosis. at present he is a professor of pediatrics and assistant professor of pediatrics at the university of pennsylvania. mr. jenner. i don't want to go into the litigation. there was some litigation, was there not, between you and your former wife with respect to some trust? mr. de mohrenschildt. trust fund. mr. jenner. established for whom? mr. de mohrenschildt. established for sergei, for our son. now, i had to contribute, according to the divorce, $ a month for the support of the children, which i did, and she put that money in a trust fund. she did not want to use that money for the upkeep of the children, because she is independently wealthy, and eventually she refused to accept any more contribution of money from me. i objected on my side to the fact that i was removed away--that the children were very far away from me. they were living in boston at the time, and i encountered constantly difficulties in regard to my visitation rights of the children. well, anyway, finally all of a sudden, after sergei died, a long time afterwards, i received a notification that we inherited, my ex-wife and i--we inherited this trust fund. mr. jenner. which trust fund? mr. de mohrenschildt. established for sergei, our son. mr. jenner. who established the trust fund? mr. de mohrenschildt. her grandfather, my boy's grandfather, mr. sharples, plus the money that came from my monthly contribution for the children's support--whatever money she could put in it. anyway, it was a small trust fund of $ , , which eventually was split up between my ex-wife and myself--about $ , each. there was a litigation in regard to that, but i don't know if it is interesting for you. mr. jenner. no--i have the complaints. your ex-wife--dr. denton lives in philadelphia? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. and she does research work, does she? mr. de mohrenschildt. she doesn't do the actual research. she is more or less running the administration end of a second foundation. she was eventually asked to leave the national cystic fibrosis foundation which we had formed together in dallas, and which became this national foundation. she developed some difficulty with the other trustees and was asked to resign, or resigned herself--i don't know for sure--the other trustees say they asked her to resign. she says she was forced to resign. and she formed with the help of her father and her friends another foundation in philadelphia which is much smaller, and i think which does also research on cystic fibrosis. and she is running the administrative end of it. she is not doing the actual research, but she is running this foundation as an administrator. mr. jenner. do you visit your child? mr. de mohrenschildt. i used to. right now i have a great deal of difficulty in visiting my daughter, nadya, because she wants to live with me, you see. mr. jenner. the daughter? mr. de mohrenschildt. the daughter, yes. and she thinks that by living in texas her health will improve. now, the mother thinks it is just the opposite--that if she lives in texas that she will die, because of the inadequate medical facilities. so we had rather bitter litigation last year as to--i tried to take the custody away from her, because of various reasons--mainly, i think that the daughter would be happier with me, and with my new wife. and the little girl has developed a tremendous liking for my new wife. but the court decided that--we went into such bitter fighting, that i stopped this litigation in the middle, and i said, "i am going to haiti anyway. let's leave things as they are for a year. i am not going to see nadya for a year, on the condition that she will get all my letters, all my gifts, and that i get a medical report from her every months." and the poor girl is also under psychiatric treatment. mr. jenner. who is? mr. de mohrenschildt. nadya, my little girl. she is under psychiatric treatment--because of her illness, and also she developed a dislike for the other members of her family, for her half brothers and sisters, because they are healthy, and she is not. mr. jenner. i take it that your former wife--there had been some children born of her present marriage? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; who have no cystic fibrosis. mr. jenner. all right. now, when the divorce took place, your wife filed suit in philadelphia, didn't she? mr. de mohrenschildt. no; the suit was filed in dallas. mr. jenner. she commenced it? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. did you resist it? mr. de mohrenschildt. no; we came to an agreement that we would get a divorce anyway. i don't know what you call it in legal terms. the lawyers made an agreement that, here it is, you see. we decided to sell our house and settle our accounts. mr. jenner. property? mr. de mohrenschildt. property settlement. and i think it was very fair for her, just as my lawyer, morris jaffe, can tell you the whole story about that. mr. jenner. now, upon your divorce from wynne, or didi, sharples, did you remain in dallas? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; i stayed in dallas, carried on my consulting work in the same manner, concentrating mostly from then on on the foreign end of this business. mr. jenner. what do you mean foreign end? mr. de mohrenschildt. i started taking more and more foreign jobs. in i took a job in haiti for a private--for some private individuals connected with sinclair oil company. mr. jenner. when was that? mr. de mohrenschildt. in --just before our divorce, i think. we were already separated. then we must have been divorced the end of . sorry--too many marriages, too many divorces. so i started taking more and more foreign jobs. and, also, in my relationship with mr. sharples, because--my ex-wife's father--i did some foreign work for him, mainly in mexico. he had some foreign exploitation in mexico, some oil operations in mexico. anyway, i started getting a lot of foreign jobs--maybe jobs in nigeria. mr. jenner. i want to know what countries you were taken to in connection with those. mr. de mohrenschildt. well, all in all, i visited and i did foreign work, which means preparation for taking of concessions and suggestion of what areas should be taken for an oil and gas concessions--it was in nigeria, in togoland, in ghana, in france--i may have forgotten with some other countries where i did not have to go, but i did some work right there in dallas--examined the geological work and made suggestions. mr. jenner. now---- mr. de mohrenschildt. and eventually---- mr. jenner. you did travel to mexico? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; many, many times. mr. jenner. in connection with that work. mr. de mohrenschildt. in cuba, too. mr. jenner. tell us about that. mr. de mohrenschildt. well, in cuba--i traveled in cuba before castro, during the batista days. the ex-president of pantitec oil co. formed the cuban-venezuela oil co., a development--a land development to promote eventually a large oil drilling campaign in cuba. he almost owned about half of the whole country under lease. this was during the batista days. he invited me to come there and look the situation over, and make recommendations. and so i visited the fields there, and his office--that type of job that i had from time to time. mr. jenner. i want to get the countries now. cuba---- mr. de mohrenschildt. cuba, mexico, ghana---- mr. jenner. these are your travels now? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. that is where i actually went. mr. jenner. that is what i want to know. mr. de mohrenschildt. ghana, nigeria, togoland, and france. mr. jenner. now, all of this was in connection with the work you were doing with respect to oil exploration and gas exploration and development for what group? mr. de mohrenschildt. for no. --for charmex. then cuban venezuelan trust--that is warren smith co. then the three states oil and gas co. in dallas. mr. jenner. now--were there some other companies? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; then lehman trading corp. in new york. i may have had other jobs, but they escape me now. but they were all consulting jobs for clients of mine--either from texas or from new york. and then in those foreign jobs led to my being pretty well known in that field. i was contacted by core lab in dallas in regard to a job in yugoslavia. mr. jenner. tell us about that. that was for---- mr. de mohrenschildt. that was for ica--a job for ica and for the yugoslav government. mr. jenner. tell us what ica is. mr. de mohrenschildt. international cooperation administration here in washington--which wanted an oil and gas specialist to go to yugoslavia and help them develop oil resources under the--i don't know--some kind of government deal. under this---- mr. jenner. did a man named charles mitchell accompany you? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes--george mitchell. mr. jenner. and his wife? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; i found him because he was a geophysicist. in other words, i did the geology and petroleum engineering, and he did pure geophysics. the ica needed two men. i looked over the country for somebody who was capable and willing to go to yugoslavia, and found george mitchell in dallas, and eventually both of us went there. mr. jenner. you were single at this time? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. and he was married? mr. de mohrenschildt. he was married. mr. jenner. and his wife accompanied him? mr. de mohrenschildt. she did; yes. mr. jenner. this was for the international cooperation administration? mr. de mohrenschildt. washington , d.c. the yugoslavian government paid my living expenses there, and the ica paid my salary. mr. jenner. and you had a contract of some kind? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; i think the contract was for or months. mr. jenner. now, you left on that venture, as i recall it, somewhere around february of , wasn't it? mr. de mohrenschildt. i left for yugoslavia. mr. jenner. yes; you left for yugoslavia when? mr. de mohrenschildt. i think it was very early in , because, months, and i returned in october. mr. jenner. ? mr. de mohrenschildt. ; yes. all the reports were made--quite a considerable number of reports were made in triplicates--some of them went to ica, some went to the yugoslavian government. i think some went to the bureau of mines here. mr. jenner. that was nonsecurity work, was it not? mr. de mohrenschildt. i don't have the slightest idea. they checked me, they gave me some kind of clearance before i went there. because i had to wait for quite some time before they gave me the okay. and i noticed that after i got back from yugoslavia, they were still checking me--after i got back from yugoslavia they were still checking on me. one character came to see some of my friends in dallas and said, "well, george de mohrenschildt is about to go to yugoslavia. do you think he is all right?" he said, "but he is already back from yugoslavia." mr. jenner. in the meantime, you had met your present wife, is that correct? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; i met her in dallas. and while we were in yugoslavia, we became engaged, and she came to visit me in yugoslavia for awhile. but she was actually by profession a designer for a dallas firm of i. clark, and she went to europe on a business trip for i. clark, and while doing so she came and visited me in yugoslavia for a couple of weeks. mr. jenner. she was not yet divorced at that time? mr. de mohrenschildt. i don't think she was divorced. she was getting a divorce. mr. jenner. where had you met her? were you living at the stoneleigh hotel in dallas? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. and she was living there, also? mr. de mohrenschildt. she was living there, also. and she had this separate apartment. i was living on the maple terrace. she was living at the stoneleigh hotel. mr. jenner. was her daughter with her at that time? mr. de mohrenschildt. no; i don't think she was. she came over later. mr. jenner. i mean was her daughter living in dallas? mr. de mohrenschildt. no; her daughter was living in california. mr. jenner. what was the name of that town? mr. de mohrenschildt. where she lived in california? mr. jenner. yes. mr. de mohrenschildt. some canyon--cayuga canyon. she can tell you about that. mr. jenner. now---- mr. de mohrenschildt. i met my present wife's ex-husband. his name was robert legon. we developed a liking for each other. i remember he told me that he will give his wife a divorce if i promise that i would marry her. a very charming fellow. mr. jenner. did you and your present wife live with each other before you were married? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes, we did, for a relatively short time, because we couldn't make up our minds whether we should get married or not. we both had experiences in the past. we decided that we would see if we wanted to be married or not. and we eventually did. mr. jenner. now, i think you can remember this. mr. de mohrenschildt. in the name of god we were married, because i remember we went on a trip to mexico and decided that here we are married--in the name of god, we are married. then, later on, we put it in the name of---- mr. jenner. you had a civil ceremony? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. after your wife had become divorced from her former husband? his name was bogoiavlensky? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; but he changed his name to legon. mr. jenner. can you spell that? mr. de mohrenschildt. that name was a discovery for me, also. in the states they used the name of le gon. mr. jenner. when you and your wife married--by the way, her given name is jeanne, is it not? mr. de mohrenschildt. that is right. mr. jenner. when you and she married, did you continue to live at the stoneleigh, or did you take up residence somewhere else? mr. de mohrenschildt. no, we kept on living at the stoneleigh for awhile, and then we took a house in university park, on thackery. we took a house because both our daughters came to live with us. actually, her daughter lived with us a little while before, and then my daughter came to live with us. she came from france to live with us. mr. jenner. you mentioned her daughter. now, you make reference to your daughter. that is your daughter alexandra? mr. de mohrenschildt. that is right. mr. jenner. and she had been living in france? mr. de mohrenschildt. she had been--she was brought up by her aunt in arizona, because her mother---- mr. jenner. and her aunt's name is what? mr. de mohrenschildt. nancy clark--and eventually she became nancy tilton iii. anyway---- mr. jenner. she lives where? mr. de mohrenschildt. she lives in valle verde ranch, near tucson, ariz. and that is where my daughter was brought up. she was brought up and spent most of her childhood in that place, with her aunt and her husband, mr. clark. mr. jenner. her aunt's husband? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. this is the daughter by your marriage to miss pierson? mr. de mohrenschildt. that is right. her mother, more or less, left her with--it was with what we call her aunt, because it is a european way--that was her first cousin, so, therefore, we call it an aunt--my daughter's aunt. i guess in english you would call it a cousin. we call it an aunt--whether it is cousin, second cousin or third cousin, it is still an aunt. anyway, she calls her "aunt" also. and she spent practically all her childhood there. mr. jenner. did you visit there? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; very frequently i went to visit her there, as often as i could. and mrs. clark and her husband wanted to adopt her. so we had a litigation there. i objected to her adoption. mr. jenner. did your former wife consent? mr. de mohrenschildt. which one? mr. jenner. to the adoption? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes, for awhile she was willing to accept that adoption, because she was not interested in her any more. she lived away from her, and married somebody else. she was not interested in the daughter. i objected to that adoption, and very fortunately, because eventually both my ex-wife and myself had to ask back for the custody of alexandra because her aunt became an alcoholic and became an impossible person to live with. and alexandra asked me and her mother to take her away from her. we had a lawsuit--not a lawsuit, but whatever you call it--a custody case. mr. jenner. where was this, in tucson? mr. de mohrenschildt. no, that was in palm beach--because nancy took alexandra with her to palm beach, and tried to keep her away from us. and we caught her there in palm beach and eventually the judge decided that she should be with us. mr. jenner. when was this? mr. de mohrenschildt. that was in . mr. jenner. now, you say "with us." who do you mean? mr. de mohrenschildt. i mean either with me or with the mother--with the mother who became mrs.--what a complication--mrs. brandel--my ex-wife, the the mother of my daughter alexandra, became mrs. brandel. her husband is a dutchman who lives in france and in italy, and is a television producer. mr. jenner. so your ex-wife, dorothy pierson---- mr. de mohrenschildt. and myself--asked the judge to decide with whom our daughter should stay. and she asked to stay with me. but i was not married yet. this was in the time between the marriages. i was not married. i could not offer her a home--although i wanted her to be with me. and then the judge said, "well, you go with your mother to france." and that is what she did. she went to france, stayed with her mother, i contributed to the support. she stayed there for, i think, a year and a half, and decided to come to stay with me in dallas later on. that is why we had the house on thackery. she lived with us. mr. jenner. she did come to live with you? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. after you were married? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. she lived with us in dallas for quite some time. and, finally, she eloped from school---- mr. jenner. from what school? mr. de mohrenschildt. highland park school. mr. jenner. in dallas? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes, and married a boy from dallas by the name of gary taylor. she is divorced from him now. mr. jenner. that was last september, was it not? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes, last september. mr. jenner. and---- mr. de mohrenschildt. they have a little boy by the name of curtis lee taylor. mr. jenner. and who has custody of that child? mr. de mohrenschildt. the boy has the custody. mr. jenner. gary taylor? mr. de mohrenschildt. maybe i am wrong on that. maybe they have a divided custody. but the child right now, according to my information, is with gary taylor and with gary's mother, mrs. taylor. mr. jenner. gary has remarried, did you know that? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. i keep in touch with mrs. taylor, find out what is happening to the child. mr. jenner. you say you keep in touch with mrs. taylor. which mrs. taylor? mr. de mohrenschildt. mrs. taylor, gary's mother, who, more or less, takes care of the little boy right now. mr. jenner. following that divorce, your daughter--what did she do? mr. de mohrenschildt. she went to school, to tucson, to study---- mr. jenner. what school is that? mr. de mohrenschildt. some secretarial school. and from then on, the situation becomes vague to me, because i was already gone. i get occasional reports telling that she left school, that she is somewhere in new york right now. mr. jenner. has she remarried? mr. de mohrenschildt. not as far as i know. i am trying to get in touch with her right now. the last address is in some small town in new york, working in a hospital. she always wanted to be a nurse. supposedly she has a job as some sort of a practical nurse in a hospital right now. mr. jenner. how old is she now? mr. de mohrenschildt. she will be now. mr. jenner. did your daughter come to know either lee or marina oswald? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. all right. i will get to that, then. while we are on these children, let's cover, if we might, your present wife's daughter. what is her name? mr. de mohrenschildt. her original name was jeanne legon, the same as my wife's. mr. jenner. there is something indicating that her name was elinor. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. jeanne elinor legon--middle name elinor. my wife being an ex-dancer, she was a ballerina, had a tremendous admiration for eleanor powell, and named her daughter's middle name after eleanor powell. she was also an admirer of eleanor roosevelt, but that is beside the point. mr. jenner. now---- mr. de mohrenschildt. she changed her name---- mr. jenner. your daughter did? mr. de mohrenschildt. her daughter changed her name from jeanne to christiana, not to be confused with her mother. and the name is hard to pronounce. she changed it legally, herself, to christiana legon. later on, i understand she changed it to christiana bogoiavlensky--whatever i hear about it. mr. jenner. is your daughter married--is christiana married? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. to whom is she married? mr. de mohrenschildt. she married ragnar kearton. mr. jenner. and who is ragnar kearton? mr. de mohrenschildt. ragnar kearton is a young man from california, from san diego, calif., whose mother i know, and whose father i don't know, but i understand he is vice president of lockheed aircraft corp. and ragnar is a well educated fellow, went to london school of economics, but never graduated. he is a freelance writer, painter. to make a living i understand he works for lockheed for awhile, and also he buys yachts, repairs them, fixes them up, and sells them. lately they moved to alaska, and have been living there. mr. jenner. what is---- mr. de mohrenschildt. working for the forestry department. mr. jenner. in alaska? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. is christiana also known as christiana valentina? mr. de mohrenschildt. that i don't know. never heard that name. mr. jenner. after she married kearton---- mr. de mohrenschildt. they changed their name to--according to them--to make it known the fact that her father's name was bogoiavlensky, and they do not want to deny the russian heritage. so that she is very fond of her father, and she wanted his name to be incorporated in their name, and that was by mutual agreement. mr. jenner. is it your understanding that your wife's former husband, robert legon, married your present wife, and after they were married, they--his name was then robert bogoiavlensky? mr. de mohrenschildt. it is my understanding. mr. jenner. and after they were married they changed their name to le gon? mr. de mohrenschildt. i understand that when they came from china, they decided that the name was too difficult to pronounce, and they changed their name to le gon. i have always known her as jeanne legon, my wife. she is still carrying that name professionally. she is well known--she is a well known designer, she has a name practically as a trademark. mr. jenner. she met mr. bogoiavlensky in china? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. this is all hearsay, of course, because i was not particularly---- mr. jenner. she will tell us first-hand tomorrow. mr. de mohrenschildt. i understand of her family--she also has russian background. her father was a director of the far eastern railroad in china, and she was born in china and lived there. mr. jenner. harbin? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes, in manchuria. lived there until . she came to the united states the same year i did. mr. jenner. that is a pure coincidence? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. we lived right next to each other in new york, and didn't know each other--right next door. mr. jenner. i understand you are very happily married. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. at last. mr. jenner. now, your wife's daughter, christiana, she is where, at the present time? mr. de mohrenschildt. right now she is in copenhagen, denmark, with her husband. mr. jenner. now---- mr. de mohrenschildt. they came to visit us in haiti. mr. jenner. i was about to ask you that. when did that take place? mr. de mohrenschildt. they came to stay with us in december. mr. jenner. of ? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. and january ? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. and where does your daughter live when her husband is in alaska? mr. de mohrenschildt. she was in alaska with him. they lived both in anchorage and in valdez. that is where the earthquake took place--in both places. mr. jenner. but they are presently vacationing or traveling in europe? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. do they have any children? mr. de mohrenschildt. they have no children. mr. jenner. what are mr. kearton's interests? mr. de mohrenschildt. interests in life? or professional interests? mr. jenner. well, give me the professional ones first. mr. de mohrenschildt. professional--he is--my wife will tell you more about him, although i know him pretty well, also, and i like him. he is of ultra conservative tendencies politically. mr. jenner. please explain that. mr. de mohrenschildt. in other words, he is for senator goldwater, percent. his father is a friend of goldwater's. and---- mr. jenner. well, is he an aggressive---- mr. de mohrenschildt. very aggressive fellow. mr. jenner. is he aggressive politically? mr. de mohrenschildt. likes to discuss it, but i don't know whether he has any actual political--i mean whether he actually works to have goldwater elected. but he likes him and freely expresses his admiration for him. i don't think he is too much of a boy to go around and try to collect votes for goldwater. he is too much concentrated on himself. mr. jenner. does it refresh your recollection that you and your wife, wynne sharples, were married on the th of april ? mr. de mohrenschildt. that is probably it, yes. mr. jenner. and you were divorced almost exactly years later, in april ? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes, that is correct-- years. i have the date clearly in my mind. mr. jenner. by the way, let me ask you this at the moment: are you a drinker? mr. de mohrenschildt. occasionally, but not too much. mr. jenner. this will be all right to state to you on the record. of all the people interviewed, everybody said that you were, if anything, a purely social drinker, they had never seen you intoxicated or close to it. mr. de mohrenschildt. it is not true, because i have been drunk many times--not every day, but many, many times. not under the table, but i have drunk more than i should. mr. jenner. you said your son, sergei, had died in . mr. de mohrenschildt. yes, in august . mr. jenner. you are sure of that--rather than ? mr. de mohrenschildt. --i am pretty sure. mr. jenner. well, what i have might be a misprint. mr. de mohrenschildt. my wife will tell you. i am not very good at dates. but i think it is . mr. jenner. you are very good on names, though. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes, i remember names. dates i am very poor at. that death, you know, put me in such a terrible condition of despair, that i decided, and i asked my wife to go with me on a trip throughout all of mexico and central america, to get away from everything, and to do some hard physical exercise. at the same time i thought i would review the geology of mexico and guatemala. and it was an old dream of mine to make a trip like that, but not in such rough conditions as we did it. mr. jenner. i am going to get into that. mr. de mohrenschildt. if you are interested, go ahead. mr. jenner. i am just trying to recall where we were when i interrupted myself. at this point, tell me your political philosophies. mr. de mohrenschildt. my political philosophy is live and let live. i voted republican, but--i am just not interested in politics. mr. jenner. i am not thinking of politics in that sense, mr. de mohrenschildt, i am thinking in politics with a capital p. mr. de mohrenschildt. well, i think i am a percent democrat, because i believe in freedom. mr. jenner. are you talking about individual freedom now? mr. de mohrenschildt. individual freedom. and i believe in freedom of expressing myself when i feel like it. i believe in freedom of criticizing something which i think is not democratic. mr. jenner. what is your attitude towards communism? mr. de mohrenschildt. towards communism, i wouldn't like to live in a communist regime, i am not a communist, never have been one. but if somebody likes it, let them have it. and i get along very well with fellow workers who are communists. for instance, in yugoslavia, i got along very well with them. of course, we didn't discuss politics very much out there. on the contrary, you have to stay away from that subject. but i consider the other person's point of view. if somebody is a communist, let them be a communist. that is his business. mr. jenner. have you---- mr. de mohrenschildt. i do not try to propagandize him, and i see some good characteristics in communism. mr. jenner. there are some indications that you have expressed that view from time to time during your lifetime while you are in this country, that there are some good qualities in communism. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. now, there we mean--or what do you mean? what is your concept of communism? mr. de mohrenschildt. i am looking at communism more or less more from the economic point of view. i think it is a system that can work and works, and possibly for a very poor man, and a very undeveloped nation it may be a solution. mr. jenner. a temporary one? mr. de mohrenschildt. a temporary one, yes--which eventually, and i believe in evolution, and i have seen through my life that communism in certain places has developed into a livable type of an economy, a way of life. now, i repeat, again, that i would not like to live there. otherwise, i would be there. because i am too independent in my thinking, and i like business to be free. but---- mr. jenner. you like individual freedom and free enterprise? mr. de mohrenschildt. that is right. mr. jenner. which you find in the united states? mr. de mohrenschildt. that is right. mr. jenner. and while you can see some benefits in communism as to persons of limited means, and poor countries, for initial development, you think that for a higher level of economic or cultural development communism is not good? mr. de mohrenschildt. that is right. mr. jenner. is that about it? mr. de mohrenschildt. exactly. mr. jenner. i don't want to put words in your mouth. mr. de mohrenschildt. exactly. now, i am very much influenced by a book called "poor countries and rich countries," by the editor of the economist in london, which expresses my ideas on economics of the world as it is today. it is a book which says that--which is available any place here--which says that the world today is divided into poor countries and rich countries, and that the question of communism and socialism is for ignoramuses. that freedom can exist in both types of economies--could exist eventually. but the main problem of countries today is the richness and the poorness. now, the rich countries are all of western europe, the united states, canada, all of the satellite countries of soviet russia, soviet russia, australia, and so on. those are the countries which are producing more than they can eat--you see what i mean? and they develop the tools to produce industrial goods. while the other countries, the rest of the world, is falling down in the morass of poverty, and becomes poorer and poorer as time goes on. you see what i mean? right now, i am living in one of those countries temporarily, haiti, which is in terrible economic condition because people eat more than they can produce. now, what can save those countries? either a tremendous injection of money from the capitalist countries, or a communist regime, or a socialist regime. what else can they do? so that is something to think about and worthwhile reading. mr. jenner. but, on the other hand, as far as your political philosophy is concerned, the thing that stands major with you is individual freedom? mr. de mohrenschildt. that is right. naturally, you can see from all my life that i believe in individual freedom, and i could not live without it. mr. jenner. sometimes to excess. mr. de mohrenschildt. to excess; yes. the big discussions i had in yugoslavia was always about the freedoms. and i remember that i was attacked one day by a group of communists in yugoslavia about governor faubus, in arkansas--saying "what happens there? is that an example of democracy in arkansas?" and i told them, yes, it is an example of democracy. i told them that you can imagine in your own country that the governor would object to the order from the president, and the president had to send troops to make the governor obey. and that made an impression on them. a few examples like that. mr. jenner. when you were in yugoslavia, then, you did have debates with the communists? mr. de mohrenschildt. occasionally--after a few drinks, you can talk to them. but they were engineers and geologists--they were not people active politically--they were not big shots. with the big shots you cannot discuss it. but with smaller people, you can discuss. mr. jenner. are you interested in debate? mr. de mohrenschildt. very much so; yes. mr. jenner. are you inclined in order to facilitate debate to take any side of an argument as against somebody who seeks to support---- mr. de mohrenschildt. that is an unfortunate characteristic i have; yes. mr. jenner. and that leads you at times to not necessarily speak in favor of, but to take the opposite view of somebody with respect to communism? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; sometimes it annoys me to have somebody who does not know anything about conditions anywhere else in the world attack while he is himself actually a communist. you see what i mean? a communist to me, in a bad sense, is somebody who does not believe in free discussion. so it annoys me that somebody bircher will tell me, "george, we are for freedom here." i said, "just the opposite, you are not for freedom." mr. jenner. that is, you have taken the position that the bircherites are not for freedom? mr. de mohrenschildt. i don't like that movement personally. i dislike it very much. i have run into trouble lately in texas before i left with some of my clients who were very much inclined in that direction. for instance, they object to the united nations. they put words in my mouth. i remember one day they said, "george, would you believe in abolition of the army in the united states and creating an international force?" i said, "no." he said, "well, that is what the united nations stands for." mr. jenner. well---- mr. de mohrenschildt. i get sometimes into heated discussions and sometimes i say things which maybe you don't think. but i may have insulted some other people's feeling, because i don't have a hatred against anybody. i don't hate communism--hell, let them live. mr. jenner. you don't hate it for somebody else, but you don't want it yourself? mr. de mohrenschildt. i don't want it myself; no. mr. jenner. your whole stay in yugoslavia, however, was in connection with the international cooperation administration? mr. de mohrenschildt. no; i am glad that you reminded me of that. i developed an idea, being in yugoslavia, of forming a joint venture to use yugoslav workers and american equipment. mr. jenner. what workers? mr. de mohrenschildt. yugoslav workers, who are very good and very inexpensive, to do some drilling in arabic countries, and using american equipment. one of my clients is john mecom in houston, who, among other things, controls cogwell oil well equipment co. in wichita, kans. and he has been having a hard time selling his equipment lately. so one day we were discussing in houston what could we do to promote the use of his equipment. and we came to a conclusion that it might be a good idea to form a joint venture, american-yugoslav joint venture, using cheap yugoslav labor, and very good labor, to drill in arabic countries, because there is a great future of doing this, you see. and john mecom sent me to yugoslavia in to look at the possibility of forming such a venture. mr. jenner. excuse me. was this the same year you were in yugoslavia for the international---- mr. de mohrenschildt. no; the next year. this was in . mr. jenner. were you then married? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. you had married your present wife? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; i think so. i hope i am right on my dates. yes--i think we were married then. anyway, i went by myself to yugoslavia. mr. jenner. i think you married your wife, jeanne in , did you not, in the summer? mr. de mohrenschildt. you are probably right. maybe i was not married at that time. now, don't take those dates -percent sure. i can correct them later on when i look at the papers. my mind was so busy with oswald that i don't keep my mind on the dates of marriage. mr. jenner. i haven't reached oswald yet. mr. de mohrenschildt. i know. it will be a long discussion. i think i expressed my point of view pretty well. mr. jenner. i do want you to get into this yugoslav venture. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. tell us more about it. mr. de mohrenschildt. all right. john mecom said, "george, you go to yugoslavia and fix a contract for me to use the american equipment in conjunction with yugoslav labor, and possibly use some yugoslav engineers, to drill in arabic countries--especially in egypt." this is a little bit beside the point. but marshal tito is very close to nasser, and it is very easy to send yugoslav workers to arabic countries today, and they actually do it all the time. they send the workers there, they do some jobs there. and they use german equipment, and sometimes italian equipment. so why not use american equipment? i heard about the very big deal in egypt that could be gotten with that type of combination. however, before going to yugoslavia i went to see the ex-head of ica here in washington. he was ambassador in yugoslavia when i was there. riddleburger. and i told him about this project. and i asked him, "do you think it will be workable? will it be acceptable in washington?" and he said, "i think that sounds like a good idea." it is nothing terrible to form a joint american-yugoslavian venture--form a corporation. i went to yugoslavia and did get a contract of that type, a contract in the form of an agreement to be signed later on, just a project. i came back to texas, discussed it with mr. mecom, and he said, "george, i have changed my mind. i don't think i would like to do business with those damned communists." so the project fell through. and eventually quite a few corporations of that type were formed, between the french and the yugoslavs, germany and yugoslavs, and italians and yugoslavs. mr. jenner. you were in ghana in , was it? mr. de mohrenschildt. i think later than that. i think , probably, or . mr. jenner. what led you to go to ghana? mr. de mohrenschildt. i have clients in new york by the name of lehman. the first name is rafael lehman, who owns the lehman trading corp. i have done some work for him in texas. a wealthy man of american and swedish origin, who owns, among other things, stamp concessions all over africa. they have rights to issue stamps for the government. and this is one of those ventures that are very profitable, because they practically give the stamps gratis to the government, and sell the stamps to the philatelic agents. and he has, i think, about african countries under contract to produce stamps for them. and one of them is ghana. and while there--he travels around africa all the time--he found out that there were some oil seeps in the northern part of ghana, indications of oil. and he asked me to go there and investigate. and eventually we took a concession in the northern part of ghana. we still are supposed to have it, this concession. mr. jenner. was it published when you went to ghana that you were a philatelist? mr. de mohrenschildt. when we arrived in ghana? mr. jenner. yes. mr. de mohrenschildt. sure. mr. jenner. explain that. mr. de mohrenschildt. that was a trick, because i was representing the philatelic agency, lehman, but we did not want to let it be known to shell oil co. that i was a consulting geologist. mr. jenner. don't you think shell oil co. would know that george de mohrenschildt was an oil geologist? mr. de mohrenschildt. well, we didn't want it to be known, anyway, because i even didn't go through--i didn't spend any time in accra. i went right away to the northern provinces. how did you know that i went as a philatelist? you have to say that sometimes in the oil business you use certain tricks. but that was intentional on the part of mr. lehman, because shell oil co. is supposed to have the real entry to all those countries, as far as concessions go. mr. jenner. did this venture of yours in behalf of lehman trading corp. have anything--was that political in any nature, and i say political with a capital p. mr. de mohrenschildt. no; of course they have to be friendly with nkrumah, because they produce stamps for him. but that is the only affiliation they have with him. mr. jenner. so this venture in ghana had no political aspects whatsoever? mr. de mohrenschildt. no. mr. jenner. it was entirely and exclusively business, as you have explained? mr. de mohrenschildt. a hundred percent business. mr. jenner. except that you were working for the international cooperation administration when you were in yugoslavia first, that had no political, capital p, implications whatsoever? mr. de mohrenschildt. no; it was purely business. mr. jenner. and your second venture in yugoslavia for the cardwell tool corp., that was strictly business? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. no politics involved? mr. de mohrenschildt. no. mr. jenner. have you ever been in any respect whatsoever an agent? mr. de mohrenschildt. never have. mr. jenner. representing---- mr. de mohrenschildt. never, never. mr. jenner. any government? mr. de mohrenschildt. you can repeat it three times. mr. jenner. any government? mr. de mohrenschildt. no. i could take what you call the fifth amendment, but, frankly, i don't need to. mr. jenner. i should say to you, mr. de mohrenschildt, that any time you think that your privacy is being unduly penetrated, or that you feel that your constitutional rights might be invaded, or you feel uncomfortable, you are free to express yourself. mr. de mohrenschildt. you are more than welcome. i have never been an agent of any government, never been in the pay of any government, except the american government, the ica. and except being in the polish army--$ a month. well, maybe i made a mistake. maybe i am working for the haitian government now. it is a contract. but it has no political affiliations. mr. jenner. subject to that. mr. de mohrenschildt. again, no political angle to it. mr. jenner. what i am driving at--whether you work for a foreign government or not, whether you ever have in your lifetime--have you at any time had any position, which i will call political, in the capital p sense, in which you sought to advance the interests of a movement or a government or even a group against a government? mr. de mohrenschildt. never have. never was even a mason. never part of any political group. mr. jenner. and any views you have expressed during your rather colorful life have been your personal views? mr. de mohrenschildt. personal views; yes. mr. jenner. not induced or fed or nurtured by any political interests, with a capital p, on behalf of any group? mr. de mohrenschildt. that is right. sometimes i criticize things, like in texas--i criticize the lack of freedoms that the mexicans have, the discrimination, and things like that. but nobody pays me for that. i say what i think. mr. jenner. whether they pay you or not---- mr. de mohrenschildt. i have never been a member of any group of any kind. my life was too busy, as you can see, in order to be involved in anything like that. mr. jenner. now, we covered your two yugoslav ventures, your ghanian venture--the time that you had the company when you were a young man in europe, traveled around europe. we covered all your employments in the united states, from the time you came here in may of . i think we have reached the point of your great venture which you started to tell us about, and i had you hold off--your trip down into mexico and the central american countries--tell us about that in your own words, how it came about, and what you did. mr. de mohrenschildt. well, i started explaining that already, that it is not a new idea for me. i said before that years before, roderick macarthur and myself set out on a limited trip of this type, when we were both young men in mexico. and i have always been interested in mexico as a very rich country mining wise, and i thought that it would be very interesting and useful for me to take a trip along the old trails of the mining of the spaniards as they went through mexico during the days of the conquistadors. you see, the spaniards went to mexico for the purpose of finding mines, and the routes they made in mexico and through central america are all directed toward certainly logical prospects, certain mines. and i started collecting through the years--i started collecting information on routes of the spaniards in mexico. but i never thought i would really be able to do it, until came the time in when my boy died, and i was in very--practically out of my mind, because this was my only son. and i said to hell with all that--i had some money saved up, and i said i am going to stay away from my work and from the civilized life for year, and i am going to follow the trails of the spanish conquistadors, all throughout central america, and possibly all the way to south america. and to do it the hardest possible way, because i believe in physical therapy for your mental problems. and my wife, fortunately, also, loves the outdoors, and agreed with me that that is something we should do. we gave up our apartment, i gave up my office, and we set out from the ranch on the border of mexico and the united states. mr. jenner. what ranch? mr. de mohrenschildt. this was--that is the ranch which belongs to a friend of ours. it is called the--it is piedras negras. it is on the mexican side of the u.s. border. on the american side you have a little town called eagle pass. on the mexican side you have piedras negras. there we have some very close friends who own a big ranch. their name is tito and conchita harper. they have--they are half mexican, half americans. they live on the ranch nearby, and in piedras negras. by the way, when i was visiting them, at the time i was visiting them, a few months before, we heard about the death of my boy, right in their house. we were sitting in their house when there was the long distance call from canada that my boy had died. they are very, very close friends. they also advised me that it would be a good thing for me to take a trip like that, knowing my interest in mexico and my interest in the outdoor life. and that is what we did. we started off at the first kilometers--tito took us in a plane to cross the first range, a very difficult range, and the rest of the trip was made on foot, all the way to the panama canal. mr. jenner. all the way to where? mr. de mohrenschildt. the panama canal. mr. jenner. tell me what countries you passed through. mr. de mohrenschildt. we passed through the whole of mexico, in the longest trajectory you can have. then the whole of guatemala, the whole of san salvador--el salvador, rather, honduras, nicaragua, costa rica, and panama. and on the way there we stopped occasionally in towns, received our mail, through the american embassy and consulates, visited some of the friends we have out there. in other words, we led a life close to nature for a whole year. mr. jenner. were you in mexico city during this trip? mr. de mohrenschildt. no; because our route kept us away from mexico city. mr. jenner. at any time during that trip was mikoyan in mexico? mr. de mohrenschildt. oh, yes. that i have to tell this incident; that is interesting. this is completely a different incident. i went to mexico city, i guess, with--a year before that, on behalf of---- mr. jenner. just a minute. mr. de mohrenschildt. this is another consulting job. mr. jenner. when did you make your walking trip through mexico? mr. de mohrenschildt. that was the end of and --all of . mr. jenner. that took about months? mr. de mohrenschildt. almost a year. mr. jenner. so you would return in the late fall of ? mr. de mohrenschildt. . mr. jenner. november, i believe. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; i remember that. mr. jenner. now, the occasion when mikoyan was in mexico was some other occasion? mr. de mohrenschildt. a different occasion; yes. mr. jenner. as long as we have raised it at this point, we might as well complete it. tell us about that. mr. de mohrenschildt. about this mikoyan incident? mr. jenner. yes. mr. de mohrenschildt. well, i went to mexico city on behalf of texas eastern corp., which is a gas company in houston, which has a contract with the mexican government for the purchase of gas. in other words, this corporation is buying gas from mexico at the border. mr. jenner. we talk about gas here--we are talking about natural gas? mr. de mohrenschildt. natural gas; yes. and this contract was in jeopardy--somebody else wanted to take it. and texas eastern, which is the corporation, a very large powerplant corporation which has the big inch from texas to the east--through their vice president, john jacobs, asked me to go to mexico, since i am familiar with the country, and try to figure out in which way we can keep that contract. and while in mexico, we had to entertain all the officials of the mexican government. mr. jenner. you say "we." mr. de mohrenschildt. my wife went with me. mr. jenner. your present wife? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. when did this take place? mr. de mohrenschildt. it was--i think it was in . i cannot swear you about the dates. but about . or early in --one or the other. i went to mexico on other jobs before, many times. but this particular job, since you are interested in the mikoyan deal, which you call it, was this particular---- mr. jenner. did i say deal or incident? i think i said incident. mr. de mohrenschildt. incident. anyway, one of our friends in mexico is the pilot of the president--the personal pilot of the president mateos of mexico. he also took the russian group, the russian engineers, with mikoyan, on the tour of mexico, at the same time i was there. by the way, our proposition of the texas eastern was to provide some financing for pemex in exchange for this contract--which is the mexican oil co. and the russians were offering the same thing to the mexicans. mr. jenner. so you were then really competing with the russians? mr. de mohrenschildt. competing with the russians. and through my contacts with this pilot, and with the mexican officials, i knew exactly what the russians were offering. we did not make any particularly big fight about it, but we knew what they were offering, and we knew what we could offer for our contract. it was one of the most interesting jobs i ever had. and then one day, mikoyan was with that group--the rest of them were technicians. one day mikoyan was leaving. i remember we had dinner the night before with this pilot of the president. and he said, "george, why don't you come with me to meet mikoyan tomorrow at the airport?" i said, "by god, that sounds like an interesting idea. i would like to meet the character." he had such a publicity of being an excellent businessman, i wanted to learn something from him. so i said, "all right, i will go with you." and my wife said, "george, you better not go, because your people at texas eastern will look at it--they may look at it in a very peculiar manner, if you appear with mikoyan"--and the texas eastern people--they are very conservative texas people--if i appear in public with mikoyan, i will not get any jobs from them. mr. jenner. particularly having in mind your russian background? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; particularly my russian background. so she says, "i better go instead of you." mr. jenner. your wife? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; so the next morning she went with the mexican major, the pilot of the president--he still is a pilot for the president today, and he is married to an american--he is not a communist, believe me. and he and jeanne went together to the airport. it was full of security officers--the russian security officers and the mexican officers. and the mexican pilot let her go through all that mess. here was the russian plane, and mikoyan was making a speech. after that, the pilot took jeanne, for the hell of it, and said, "i will introduce you to mikoyan." and jeanne went to him and said in perfect russian, "how are you, comrade mikoyan? nice to know you." and he almost collapsed, because it was such a surprise for him that somebody went through all that security officers without being detected--because she was right there in that group. so she said--he asked her where she is from, and she says, "i am from texas." "what do you mean from texas?" she said, "yes, i am from texas." she said, "why don't you come and visit us in texas and i will give you a russian dinner." and mikoyan said, "thank you very much, some day i will come and see you." so here was the mikoyan incident. mr. jenner. that is all of the circumstances of the so-called mikoyan incident? mr. de mohrenschildt. that is right. mr. jenner. it was pure happenstance and a bit of fun? mr. de mohrenschildt. that is right. mr. jenner. and you, in fact, declined the same invitation? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; i declined to go--purely for business reasons--because i didn't want my clients to think that i was buddy buddy with mikoyan. mr. jenner. now, this trip of yours down through mexico, and the central american countries--wasn't that about the time of the bay of pigs invasion? mr. de mohrenschildt. it was indeed; yes. and we didn't know anything about it. mr. jenner. you didn't? mr. de mohrenschildt. we didn't know anything about it. mr. jenner. your trip had nothing whatsoever to do with that? mr. de mohrenschildt. nothing to do with it--except i remember we arrived in guatemala city, and by god you know we walked on the street, we were trying to get some visas to get to the next country--you have to get visas and permits to carry guns. we had to carry a revolver with us to protect us, because we were going constantly through a jungle. we did not follow any roads. we were all the time following the trails. mr. jenner. the old conquistador trails? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; we carried two revolvers and a shotgun with us, and to be able to cross the border you had to get permit each time. that took us in guatemala city quite some time. we were walking around the town trying to get a permit to nicaragua, and to san salvador, and to honduras. and as we were walking on the street we saw a lot of white boys, dressed in civilian, but they looked like military men to me. and i said to jeanne, "by god, they look like american boys." the consulate--we received our mail through the american consulate. mr. jenner. in guatemala city? mr. de mohrenschildt. everywhere--guatemala city, san salvador--not honduras, but in san jose--everywhere we received our mail through the consulate or the embassy. and i was asking the help of the consul there--could they help me to get a permit to go to honduras and carry my shotgun there. he said, "i am too busy today, i cannot do anything for you." and then we left guatemala city-- days later--we read the paper on the road about the bay of pigs invasion. that is all we knew about it. mr. jenner. what did you do on your trip through mexico and the central american countries? mr. de mohrenschildt. well, we took--i took--we walked and found our way by the map, spoke to the people, collected samples. mr. jenner. samples of what? mr. de mohrenschildt. samples of rocks, of various rocks that seemed to have---- mr. jenner. how did you carry it? mr. de mohrenschildt. we sent them back--we carried--all the stuff we carried on the back of a mule. we had a big mule that could carry pounds. this whole thing is recorded in a book i have written. it is a manuscript i have-- pages--day for day description of our adventures. if you are interested, i will give it to you. the publishers don't seem to be interested. it is now in the hands of a publisher in france, and they may publish it. mr. jenner. i had heard about that. i heard if it had a little more color it might be salable. mr. de mohrenschildt. it is a little bit too dry. it is day by day--that is what i could do. someday when i have more time, i will make it a little bit more colorful. but as it is now, it is a diary of our trip, day by day. mr. jenner. now---- mr. de mohrenschildt. you see, that took quite some time each day to record what i saw, to record the geology, to record the observations i had of each place. because we went to places that no white man has ever been in before, in many places. and certainly no geologist had ever visited before. we had some fascinating adventures. we were attacked many times. we were robbed. but we always came out all right. mr. jenner. did you make movies of that? mr. de mohrenschildt. we have a movie made of it, which i have here with me, because i would like to show it--i showed it to many friends in dallas and in new york. it is an millimeter movie which has about , feet--three big reels. this movie seemed to be quite interesting to people who like the outdoors. it gives you a complete sequence of our trip. mr. jenner. did you get pretty native in the course of that trip? mr. de mohrenschildt. well, we became completely native. we ate only what the natives ate. we drank what they drank. and we returned to civilization only once in awhile when we were in towns, in the big cities. otherwise, we lived exactly like the natives. and that is how we were able to make a trip like that. we looked like indians. they thought that we were indians from somewhere. we were poorly dressed. all our cameras and equipment was covered by a piece of old rag, on top of that mule. in other words, we did not want to show to the people that we had money with us--we did carry money with us. mr. jenner. where did that trip end? mr. de mohrenschildt. the trip ended exactly at the panama canal. at the end of the trip, we went to say hello to mr. farland, the u.s. ambassador there. and we also met mr. telles, our ambassador in costa rica. they know all about our trip. and there were many articles written about our trip in the local papers. mr. jenner. you mean local in dallas? mr. de mohrenschildt. local in dallas--and local papers in central america, small local papers. it was a purely geological trip, plus a desire to be away from civilization for a while because of the death of my son. that, i think, is sufficient reason. mr. jenner. it has no political implications whatsoever? mr. de mohrenschildt. no political implications. i am not interested at all in politics. naturally, when i was going there i could not help seeing what was going on. the dictatorship in honduras, the civil war in panama, the guerilla fights. but it is all recorded in my book. but i had nothing to do with it. mr. jenner. you went from panama to where? mr. de mohrenschildt. we just arrived from the border of texas to panama. we performed one big chunk of--we covered a big chunk of territory which is about , miles, on foot. and, believe me, not many people can do it, you know. mr. jenner. when you completed that trip---- mr. de mohrenschildt. when we completed this trip, we were very tired, and we decided to go and take a rest in haiti. mr. jenner. why did you select haiti? mr. de mohrenschildt. well, as i said before, i had been there many times as a tourist. i have a very close friend of my father's who lived in haiti. i speak french. and i like the country. i said we are going to visit this old man, a friend of my father's. mr. jenner. what is his name? mr. de mohrenschildt. mr. breitman; michael breitman. he used to be a very wealthy man in russia--also involved in the oil industry in russia, and in czarist russia--a friend of my father's. and i discovered that he lived in haiti sometime in and when i went as a tourist there. and we became very close. he considered me almost like his son. we went to visit him--i was worried that he might die, and he died very soon after our trip. and we stayed there for months, relaxing, taking it easy. and i started preparing my contract with the haitian government at the same time. mr. jenner. now---- mr. de mohrenschildt. already then. mr. jenner. then you already had in mind the venture you are now--in which you are now engaged? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. i already started then, you see. i made the first step. i received a letter--i still have it--the letter from the minister of finance--that they are interested in my project, which the project is to review all the mining resources of haiti. they don't have anybody to do that. and we kept on working on it, working and working and working, corresponding back and forth, until finally there was the contract in march . in other words, it took me years to get that contract. mr. jenner. here, again, this is all business? mr. de mohrenschildt. purely business. mr. jenner. no political or like considerations? mr. de mohrenschildt. no. mr. jenner. you have never been a member of any subversive group? mr. de mohrenschildt. no; never have. mr. jenner. of what groups have you been a member? and of what groups are you a member? mr. de mohrenschildt. i am not a member of any group. maybe that is something against me, because i am not a member of any group. i am not a member--i am not interested. i am too busy. mr. jenner. you are a member of the petroleum club in dallas? mr. de mohrenschildt. if you call that a group; yes. mr. jenner. it is a group. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; a member of the dallas petroleum club. mr. jenner. tell me all the societies or groups, whether you call them political or otherwise, of which you have been a member. mr. de mohrenschildt. none political. you call the dallas petroleum club political? mr. jenner. no. mr. de mohrenschildt. well, i am a member of the dallas petroleum club. i used to be a member of the abilene country club. i used to be, because i don't live there any more. i am a member of american association of petroleum geologists. i am a member of the american association of mining engineers. i think my dues are due. maybe they expelled me by now. i am a member of the dallas society of petroleum geologists. i am a member of the abilene society of petroleum geologists. i am a registered petroleum engineer in colorado. that is about it. purely professional organizations. mr. jenner. have you ever participated in the affairs of--whether you have been a member of--irrespective of whether you have been a member of, i should say--any political action group, even such things as the american civil liberties union? mr. de mohrenschildt. no; never even knew that it existed. i never even knew it existed. you can see very clearly, i did not have time to do that. i am not interested in it. i told you before, i am not interested in politics, except when i want to improve something in our way of life. mr. jenner. in our own way. mr. de mohrenschildt. in our own way of life, then i start criticizing. but i certainly am not interested in somebody's political organization, because i am sufficiently independent to do it by myself. mr. jenner. and even when you become interested, as you suggest, in improvement or change, that has been largely an individual activity on your part? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. occasionally i write letters to congressmen--if you call that political action. i do. i write, i bitch very often. i write letters to the congressmen and complain. i know the congressman from texas here, and i know--i write letters to people in washington when i want to have something done about something. mr. jenner. all right. now, you spent months in haiti. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. and you returned to the united states. mr. de mohrenschildt. returned to the united states. mr. jenner. where did you land? mr. de mohrenschildt. we landed in--we came by lykes--lykes line ship directly from haiti to louisiana, i think port arthur, la. mr. jenner. lake charles? mr. de mohrenschildt. lake charles. and the friends met us there and drove us back to houston and then to dallas. mr. jenner. who were your friends that met you there? mr. de mohrenschildt. the friends there were two employees of kerr-mcgee oil co., by the name of george kitchel, vice president, and jim savage, engineer. mr. jenner. you had known jim savage for some time? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. and you had known kitchel for some time? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. we are now into , are we? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. in the early part of the year? mr. de mohrenschildt. that is right. mr. jenner. and you returned to dallas? mr. de mohrenschildt. we returned to dallas. we took another apartment in the same place--very close to the same neighborhood we used to live-- dickens avenue. i felt an urge to write a report on our trip. i sat down and worked like hell writing this report. my wife started working--because we were getting short of money. we spent all the money on our trip--including this haiti stay. and at the same time i started pursuing my profession and making oil deals like we do, doing consulting work, in dallas. now, i should repeat again--i am glad you reminded me of some of those dates, because you have them written down, and i don't. so i cannot vouch for some of the dates. mr. jenner. well, as a matter of fact, i have most of them in my head at the moment. mr. de mohrenschildt. you have a better memory for dates than i do. mr. jenner. now we have you in . your wife went back to work for---- mr. de mohrenschildt. she had broken her contract with a very large manufacturer. she had a very good contract--to come on this trip with me. she gave up a job of $ , or $ , a year, to go on this trip with me. and she had a very hard time reestablishing herself in her profession of designer. so we went through a rather difficult time there for a year, and she started working in the millinery department of sanger-harris in dallas. it is a large department store in dallas. mr. jenner. now, this brings us to the summer of . mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. now, in due course you met marina and lee harvey oswald. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. now, before we get to that, what i would like to have you do for me is tell me about what i will describe in my words, and you use your own, the russian emigre group or community or society in dallas at or along about that time. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. there i knew them all, because both my wife and i like to speak russian, and we like russian cooking, mainly. this is our main interest in russian society. they are all of the same type--in other words, they are all people who carry memories of russia with them, and who became, i think, perfect american citizens. some of them are a little bit to the left, others are a little bit to the right, but all within the limits of true democracy. one of them is, i think, leaning towards excessive rightist tendencies. mr. jenner. what is his name? mr. de mohrenschildt. he is a geologist, for sun oil co. his name is ilya mamantov. i know them all very well. they are very decent people, all of them. he, i think, is a little bit too much again on this birch society group, because he works for a large company. mr. jenner. to refresh your recollection as to some of these people. voshinin. what is his first name? mr. de mohrenschildt. igor. mr. jenner. mr. mamantov's mother-in-law, gravitis--dorothy gravitis? mr. de mohrenschildt. i just met her once or twice--hardly spoken to her. mr. jenner. the clarks? mr. de mohrenschildt. i know them very well. mr. jenner. max clark? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes, max and his wife, gali. mr. jenner. gali is of russian derivation? mr. de mohrenschildt. russian descent, born in france of the upper society in russia--she was born princess sherbatov. they are families better than cabots and lodges here in the states. mr. jenner. what about mr. clark? mr. de mohrenschildt. mr. clark is a texan of an excellent background, who is a lawyer, as you know. mr. jenner. a lady by the name of khrystinik? mr. de mohrenschildt. that i don't know. i don't know her. maybe you don't pronounce correctly her name. mr. jenner. that may well be. paul raigorodsky? mr. de mohrenschildt. he is another russian who is very successful in business, a republican, a good friend of mine, i think. for years and years. mr. jenner. let me see some others that come to my mind. mr. de mohrenschildt, i made a mistake with respect to one name. i said it was khrystinik. i was in error. it is lydia dymitruk. you are acquainted with her? mr. de mohrenschildt. very slightly. mr. jenner. what i am directing my attention to now, sir; is people forming part of the russian, what i call, community in the dallas, fort worth, irving area. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. mr. and mrs. ray. mr. and mrs. frank ray, and mr. and mrs. thomas ray. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. i think she is russian. mr. jenner. which one? mr. de mohrenschildt. either one of them--the one who is in the advertising business. mr. jenner. george bouhe. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. he is a leader of the community, is he? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. john and elena hall? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. what is their history? mr. de mohrenschildt. well, she is---- mr. jenner. i mean derivation. mr. de mohrenschildt. he is american. mr. jenner. he is a native american. and she is---- mr. de mohrenschildt. she is a russian, i think of persian origin, or brought up in persia. i am not so sure where she was born. but she speaks very good russian. she is i think greek orthodox, which means of russian parentage. mr. jenner. tatiana biggers? mr. de mohrenschildt. the name sounds familiar to me, but i don't think i know it. mr. jenner. mr. and mrs. teofil meller? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. peter gregory and his son, paul? mr. de mohrenschildt. i know only the father, peter gregory, not the son. mr. jenner. mr. and mrs. declan ford? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes, i know them. mr. jenner. does my calling your attention to the few people i have named refresh your recollection as to others who are part of the russian community? mr. de mohrenschildt. well, there are others. mr. jenner. i am thinking primarily of the russian group who met the oswalds. mr. de mohrenschildt. i don't know who of them might have met the oswalds. mr. jenner. what about sam ballen? mr. de mohrenschildt. he is an american, but he knows a few russians. and he met oswald just once, i guess. i think he is a good friend of voshinin--of mine, and probably knows the fords. i don't think he knows the others. maybe he does. i don't know. mr. jenner. having in mind this group of people---- mr. de mohrenschildt. well, then the priest must know them all--the russian priest. mr. jenner. what is his name? mr. de mohrenschildt. he is an american, but he is a greek orthodox priest there. mr. jenner. what is his name? mr. de mohrenschildt. father dimitri. mr. jenner. father dimitri--he is from houston, is he not? mr. de mohrenschildt. no, he is the one who is in charge of the greek orthodox church in dallas, and he is also a professor at smu, professor of spanish at smu. mr. jenner. in that connection, there are two---- mr. de mohrenschildt. i know that he knows marina. mr. jenner. there are two greek orthodox churches, are there not, or sects or groups, in dallas? mr. de mohrenschildt. that is right. mr. jenner. tell me how that developed. mr. de mohrenschildt. well, it is just some sort of schism in the greek orthodox church. i am not too interested in religion, so i could not tell you how it originated. but anyway, one church seems to be purely russian, and the other one seems to have a lot of americans in it. the one that father dimitri is the head of--he is an american and quite a large membership of americans--they have converted. and the services are in english, although the others--some services are in russian also. sometimes he has visiting priests. but i don't know why they are segregated into two groups. mr. jenner. mr raigorodsky is interested in the old guard group, let us call it? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; probably, that is right. mr. jenner. and also mr. bouhe? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; but raigorodsky supports also the other group. mr. jenner. yes; he does. now, are the acquaintances largely formed, when new people come into dallas, through these church groups? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; most of the time i would say so. mr. jenner. now, at least during the time--i don't know what your propensities are at the moment, but you were somewhat irreligious when you were in dallas, were you not? mr. de mohrenschildt. well, i actually contributed to this church, to the formation of that first church, that raigorodsky was interested in, the old guard church. mr. jenner. yes. mr. de mohrenschildt. and i actually organized even a choir. but then i got less interested in it. i didn't like the priest, you know. mr. jenner. you didn't like father dimitri? mr. de mohrenschildt. no; the previous one. mr. jenner. what was his name? mr. de mohrenschildt. well, i forgot his name. he is in south africa now. it was some time ago. it was years ago maybe. he was sent to south africa. let them convert the negroes there, in south africa. mr. jenner. it has been said or reported by--from a few sources, during the course of your lifetime that you were an atheist; is that correct? mr. de mohrenschildt. no; i am more or less an agnostic. i would not call myself an atheist; an agnostic. i do not believe in organized religion. sometimes if i see a group like that, like the russian group there, i wanted to help them a little bit to be together. and it is amusing to meet those people. so i contributed a little money and a little bit of my time for the services--for instance, as i said, to sing in the church. but i do not go for going every sunday to church, if that is the answer. mr. jenner. well---- mr. de mohrenschildt. and especially i do not believe in trying to convert people--constantly they push to convert people. but i go occasionally--on some holidays i go to church, to be with them, and to see the group, because i like many of those people. mr. jenner. that attitude on your part, of agnosticism, whatever you have explained it to be, i take it does not arise out of any interest or belief in communism? mr. de mohrenschildt. no. mr. jenner. communists are---- mr. de mohrenschildt. communism is a religion, you know. mr. jenner. well, that is what they say, in any event. they seek to stamp out religion as we understand it in russia, do they not? mr. de mohrenschildt. well, i understand that the greek orthodox church is prosperous in soviet russia, quite prosperous. maybe that is the schism that they have in the church, the schism between the two--maybe one of those churches is closer to the communist greek orthodox denomination. mr. jenner. but this is speculation on your part? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; this is speculation on my part. i don't know for sure. mr. jenner. now, you are an ebullient person, you like to mix with others? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; not always, you know, because i can stand for a year to be in the jungle. mr. jenner. yes; i appreciate that. but when you are in, let us say, dallas or other towns, and in your own community, you are an ebullient person, you are gregarious, you like to be with people? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; exactly. mr. jenner. it is suggested by some people you are also unorthodox in your social habits. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; probably. what do they say--what do they mean? mr. jenner. well, you are prone to be a little---- mr. de mohrenschildt. shock people. mr. jenner. shock people; yes. that is generally so? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. and why do you do that? mr. de mohrenschildt. well, it is interesting to see people's reaction--if you shock them, it is amusing to get people out of their boredom. sometimes life is very boring. mr. jenner. and get you out of your boredom, too? mr. de mohrenschildt. maybe my boredom also. mr. jenner. well---- mr. de mohrenschildt. but generally people like to be asked provocative questions and to be given provocative answers. i think so, at least. mr. jenner. you are a man--i will put it this way---- mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; i hope so. mr. jenner. you like to have fun? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. there has been some suggestion that maybe you could be a little more serious-minded? mr. de mohrenschildt. it certainly has been suggested. mr. jenner. it has even been said you might grow up a little bit? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. but you are fun-loving? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; that is right. that i am. well, i don't believe, you know, in leading a life as if you were half dead. might as well enjoy it, your life, to the fullest extent. mr. jenner. i am trying to paint a picture here, mr. de mohrenschildt, of the milieu or background in dallas when you first met the oswalds, what kind of a community it was. mr. de mohrenschildt. i understand. mr. jenner. how you moved around in it, and what part you played in it, and what part your wife played in it. i gather that the community of which you speak, the people of russian derivation, were close, you saw a good deal of them? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; it is close because there are not many. it is not like new york--although in new york i know also thousands of russians, and in philadelphia, and so on, and so forth. but mainly in dallas there are only maybe, as you know, families, maybe families, all in all. so they are a little bit closer together. and a very pleasant relationship--because they are all good people--and with a few exceptions i think we all like each other, and used to get along very well, until oswald appeared on the horizon. mr. jenner. all right. i want to get to that. i want this to be as spontaneous on your part as possible, rather than coming by any suggestion from me. would you try and put in your own words this russian community as it was when oswald and marina came to the dallas area, fort worth, in june of --without involving them now. what was the milieu and the background of the situation? mr. de mohrenschildt. well, a purely social group, a little bit divided by classes. you see what i mean? mr. jenner. no; i don't. mr. de mohrenschildt. there was a little differentiation in classes there. mr. jenner. go ahead and tell us about it. mr. de mohrenschildt. in other words, people with good education and a little bit more money rather were together, and it is not so much a question of money as a question of good education, and of background. and bouhe comes from an excellent family. this gali clark, of course, comes from a no. family of russia. paul raigorodsky comes from an excellent family, excellent education. those were the people with whom we were very close. mr. jenner. was there a man by the name of zavoico? mr. de mohrenschildt. he is---- mr. jenner. what is his first name? mr. de mohrenschildt. basil. mr. jenner. he lives in connecticut now? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. he is a wealthy man? mr. de mohrenschildt. relatively wealthy man, well-to-do. he has had many, many, many years--many more than all of us, in the oil business. mr. jenner. never part of the community? mr. de mohrenschildt. we all knew him. because there are so few people in this geological field. and he is an old acquaintance of mine. mr. jenner. now, there was a professor jitkoff in houston? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. what is his first name? mr. de mohrenschildt. i don't remember. i just met him once or twice. i know his wife better. mr. jenner. is his wife also a russian emigre? mr. de mohrenschildt. i think she is of armenian, or russian and armenian, extraction. mr. jenner. in what connection did you meet him? mr. de mohrenschildt. already a long time ago. oh, yes; i met him through another russian, through ballerina, a russian ballerina, another one who lived there--natasha krosofska, a famous ballerina. mr. jenner. i am thinking of another name in dallas, mrs. helen leslie. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; that is her stepmother--the stepmother of the ballerina. mr. jenner. she was part of the russian group? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; also from a typical old guard family--really hundred percent. to show you the atmosphere--who does not believe there are any new houses built in russia today? she said in her opinion the russia of today doesn't have any new houses, none whatsoever--only the old palaces from the czarist days. mr. jenner. i interrupted you. mr. de mohrenschildt. the really backward type old guard people. i am glad that you made such a distinction there. mr. jenner. is this old guard group a group that would be inclined to believe that if an american went to russia and came back with a russian wife, that that necessarily would mean that he must have had some connections of some kind with the communists in order to get a russian wife out of russia? mr. de mohrenschildt. that is an interesting question. they might believe anything, because they think that the russians are such devils that they would go to any extent of diabolical combinations to do something like that. mr. jenner. now, among the russian emigre group in dallas, did you ever know of anybody that you even thought might be a communist? mr. de mohrenschildt. not a single one. mr. jenner. or have any leanings toward communism? mr. de mohrenschildt. no; no leanings even. i am probably the most leftest of them all. mr. jenner. and you do not---- mr. de mohrenschildt. and as you know, i am not a member of any party. mr. jenner. and you do not regard yourself as a communist? mr. de mohrenschildt. no. not only do i not regard--i just am not. but i am probably the only one who has been in the communist country, because of my job with ica, and also, i forgot to tell you that i had visited poland in , after my job with ica. i went to visit poland, as a tourist, to see what happened to my ex-country. i just went there for a period of days, to warsaw, and then went to sweden from there, and then returned back to the states. mr. jenner. this was after---- mr. de mohrenschildt. after i finish my job in yugoslavia. mr. jenner. give me--i am going to pose a hypothetical to you. let us assume that a russian couple would come to dallas, let us say right now--no friends, not know anybody in dallas. what would normally happen? as soon as you became acquainted with the fact, or the community--the russian group became acquainted with the fact that there was a russian couple? mr. de mohrenschildt. they would be exceedingly interested, naturally. mr. jenner. curious? mr. de mohrenschildt. exceedingly curious. mr. jenner. now, if you were there, would that include you? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. and your wife? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. well, aside from us--the most curious would be george bouhe, because he actually met us first--the first in dallas--he told us about oswald, as far as i remember. because he is curious by nature. he wants to know what is going on. he wants to convert them to the greek orthodox church, and so on. mr. jenner. would there be any effort to help these people become acquainted throughout the community? mr. de mohrenschildt. if they--if that couple came from soviet russia, from the soviet union, you mean? mr. jenner. well, let's assume that. mr. de mohrenschildt. well, the old guard would not do anything. they would be curious, but--they might meet them and very soon afterwards they would get disgusted with them, because what they would say to them would not fit with their beliefs. and we know that soviet russia is a going concern. to them it is not, it does not exist. it just isn't there. mr. jenner. all right. now, when did you first meet either marina--i will put it this way: when did you first hear---- mr. de mohrenschildt. the first time---- mr. jenner. of either of these people--marina oswald or lee harvey oswald? mr. de mohrenschildt. as far as i remember, george bouhe, who is a close friend of mine, and a very curious individual, told me that there is an interesting couple in fort worth, and that the clarks know them already--max clark and gali--they know them already. somebody read about them in the paper--i don't know exactly, i don't remember the exact wording any more--that somebody read about them in the paper, maybe mr. gregory, and discovered them, made a discovery. mr. jenner. now---- mr. de mohrenschildt. but we heard from george bouhe the first time. mr. jenner. at this time were you aware that there had been an american who had gone to the soviet union and attempted to defect to the soviet union? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. and that he had returned to the united states? mr. de mohrenschildt. that is what i heard from george bouhe. mr. jenner. that was the first you ever knew anything at all about---- mr. de mohrenschildt. i never heard about them, never heard anything about them before. mr. jenner. now, is that likewise true of mrs. de mohrenschildt? mr. de mohrenschildt. same thing. i think we were both together when this conversation took place. mr. jenner. when did it take place? mr. de mohrenschildt. i could not tell you the date. i think in the summer of . mr. jenner. now, give me your best recollection of what george bouhe said to you about the oswalds on that occasion. mr. de mohrenschildt. he said rather a complimentary account of them--i don't think he met them yet. i think he just heard about them. mr. jenner. it is your recollection he had just heard about them, and heard she is very pretty, and comes from an excellent family--supposedly. and he is a fellow who got disappointed in soviet russia and returned to the united states, and that met with george bouhe's approval--somebody who did that. mr. de mohrenschildt. i don't think he even knew that he had been an ex-marine, and all that. i don't think he knew anything about that. mr. jenner. when george bouhe spoke to you then--have you exhausted your recollections as to the conversation right at that point? mr. de mohrenschildt. i am trying to think about it. i just remember that i got curious, what kind of a fellow he is, and what kind of a woman she is. mr. jenner. were you particularly interested when you heard she was pretty? mr. de mohrenschildt. no, no; not particularly. no; because--but it is nice to know a good-looking girl rather than to know some monster. mr. jenner. you have---- mr. de mohrenschildt. i am always curious to find somebody better looking than horrible. we are talking about serious things. mr. jenner. well, it is part of the atmosphere, mr. de mohrenschildt. you have always had an interest in pretty women, have you not? mr. de mohrenschildt. sure, sure; naturally. mr. jenner. and you have pursued and courted them? mr. de mohrenschildt. i still do, i hope. until the day i die. but anyway, it was not really so. it was just an interesting couple who were--it pleased us to know that here is a pretty girl from soviet russia that had arrived, because we all picture soviet russian women like a commando--big, fat women, working in a brick factory. mr. jenner. you were curious to find out more about them, were you not? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. what did you do? mr. de mohrenschildt. again, now, my recollections are a little bit vague on that. i tried, both my wife and i, hundreds of times to recall how exactly we met the oswalds. but they were out of our mind completely, because so many things happened in the meantime. so please do not take it for sure how i first met them. mr. jenner. we want your best recollection. mr. de mohrenschildt. my best recollection--i even cannot recall who gave me their address in fort worth. i don't recall that. either george bouhe or the clarks, because the clarks knew them already, max and gali clark, because they were from fort worth, you see. and i think a few days later somebody told me that they live in dire poverty. somewhere in the slums of fort worth. i had to go on business to fort worth with my very close friend, colonel orlov. mr. jenner. what is his first name? mr. de mohrenschildt. lawrence orlov--he is an american, but he has a russian name for some reason--maybe his great-grandfather came from russia. and to my best recollection, lawrence and i were on some business in fort worth, and i told him let's go and meet those people, and the two of us drove to this slum area in fort worth and knocked at the door, and here was marina and the baby. oswald was not there. mr. jenner. this was during the daytime? mr. de mohrenschildt. late in the afternoon, after business hours, o'clock. mr. jenner. you and colonel orlov? mr. de mohrenschildt. colonel orlov. mr. jenner. she answered the door. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. you identified yourself? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; i said a few words in russian, i said we are friends of george bouhe. i think he was already helping them a little bit, giving them something for the baby or something. i think he had already been in--he helps everybody. he has been helping her especially. and so the introduction was fine. and i found her not particularly pretty, but a lost soul, living in the slums, not knowing one single word of english, with this rather unhealthy looking baby, horrible surroundings. mr. jenner. now we are interested in a couple of things. you found that she knew substantially no english? mr. de mohrenschildt. no english at all at that time. i think she knew maybe--i remember that i asked her, "how do you buy things in the store," and she said, "i point with my finger and i can say 'yes' and 'no'." that is all. mr. jenner. did you go into the home--was it a house or apartment? mr. de mohrenschildt. it was a shack, near sears roebuck, as far as i remember--near that area. i don't know if you went down there. a little shack, which had only two rooms, sort of clapboard-type building. very poorly furnished, decrepit, on a dusty road. the road even was not paved. mr. jenner. what did you talk to her about? mr. de mohrenschildt. just asked her how she likes it here, and how she was getting along, does she get enough food, something like that--completely meaningless conversation. and i think lawrence was there, you know, but he did not understand what i was saying. he doesn't know russian. mr. jenner. did you ask about her husband? mr. de mohrenschildt. i said, "well, i would like to meet your husband." she said he should be back from work soon. she asked me to sit down, offered me something to drink, i think--she had some sherry or something in the house. this is the best of my recollection. and lawrence sat down, and found her very nice. and then after a little while, oswald, lee appeared. mr. jenner. you say lee appeared? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes, lee appeared. mr. jenner. lee appeared. you had never seen him before? mr. de mohrenschildt. never seen him before. mr. jenner. and he came in? mr. de mohrenschildt. he came in. mr. jenner. what happened, and what was said? mr. de mohrenschildt. well, he loved to speak russian. mr. jenner. did you introduce yourself? and explain why you were there? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes, i said, "i'm a friend of george bouhe, i want to see how you are getting along." mr. jenner. did you speak in russian or english? mr. de mohrenschildt. in english at first, and then he switched to russian. mr. jenner. what was your impression of his command of russian? mr. de mohrenschildt. well, he spoke fluent russian, but with a foreign accent, and made mistakes, grammatical mistakes, but had remarkable fluency in russian. mr. jenner. it was remarkable? mr. de mohrenschildt. remarkable--for a fellow of his background and education, it is remarkable how fast he learned it. but he loved the language. he loved to speak it. he preferred to speak russian than english any time. he always would switch from english to russian. mr. jenner. did you discuss life in russia, how he got there? mr. de mohrenschildt. i don't think the first time. i don't think the first time i said anything at all, you know. possibly he told me that he had been in minsk, and that got me curious, because i had lived in minsk as a child, and my father was the so-called nobility marshal of minsk. he got me curious, you know. but i do not recall for sure whether it was the first time i met him or the second time or the third time. i don't remember. i think it was a very short meeting the first time, because lawrence orlov was there, and he wanted to get back home, so we just said, "well, we will see you," and possibly marina had mentioned that her baby needed--that she needed some medical attention with her teeth, and that the baby had not been inoculated. possibly that was that time. but i am not so sure. mr. jenner. at least there was a time when that did arise? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes, yes. mr. jenner. her need for dental care, some attention needed to be given to the child? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. your impression was the child looked rather on the sickly side? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; very much so. it was kind of a big head, bald big head, looked like khrushchev, the child--looked like an undergrown khrushchev. i always teased her about the fact that the baby looked like khrushchev. mr. jenner. i don't want to prod you, because i want you to tell the story in your own words. now, you had this visit, and you returned home? mr. de mohrenschildt. i think the first visit was very short, and we drove back with lawrence, and i remember on the way we discussed that couple, and both had a lot of sympathy for her especially. but he also struck me as a very sympathetic fellow. mr. jenner. yes. give me your impression of him at that time--your first impression. mr. de mohrenschildt. the first impression and the last impression remain more or less the same. i could never get mad at this fellow. mr. jenner. why? mr. de mohrenschildt. sometimes he was obnoxious. i don't know. i had a liking for him. i always had a liking for him. there was something charming about him, there was some--i don't know. i just liked the guy--that is all. mr. jenner. when you reached home, you reported on this---- mr. de mohrenschildt. you know, he was very humble--with me he was very humble. if somebody expressed an interest in him, he blossomed, absolutely blossomed. if you asked him some questions about him, he was just out of this world. that was more or less the reason that i think he liked me very much. mr. jenner. yes; he did. it is so reported, and marina has so said. well, that first visit didn't give you any opportunity to observe the relations between marina and lee, i assume? mr. de mohrenschildt. i already noticed then that the couple--that they were not getting along, right away. mr. jenner. what made you have that impression? mr. de mohrenschildt. well, there was a strained relationship there. you could feel that. and, you know how it is--you can see that the couple--that they are not very happy. you could feel that. and he was not particularly nice with her. he didn't kiss her. it wasn't a loving husband who would come home and smile and kiss his wife, and so on and so forth. he was just indifferent with her. he was more interested in talking to me than to her. that type of attitude. mr. jenner. but you did notice throughout all your acquaintance with him that he blossomed when you paid attention to him, let us say? mr. de mohrenschildt. exactly. mr. jenner. you drew him into conversation or situations--especially when you asked something about him? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; exactly. i think that is his main characteristic. he wanted people to be interested in him, not in marina. and she remained quite often in the background. later on, even in conversation she would remain in the background, and he would do the talking. mr. jenner. did he have an arrogant attitude? mr. de mohrenschildt. no; with me he has never been arrogant. even when we came to the incident, you know, when we took the baby away from him, and marina away from him later--you know that? mr. jenner. i want to get that in sequence. but you did it yourself, did you? mr. de mohrenschildt. my wife and i; yes. mr. jenner. now, why do you not just go along and tell me as things develop. and how attitudes changed, and everything. mr. de mohrenschildt. well, then we started getting reports, you know, from george bouhe and the clarks about them. we didn't see them very often. mr. jenner. please, i don't want you to say you didn't see them very often. maybe you didn't. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. i want to know how this developed. mr. de mohrenschildt. well---- mr. jenner. when next did you see them, after this initial event? mr. de mohrenschildt. that i don't remember. i don't remember. but i do know that we saw marina very soon afterward, because either my wife went to get her or my daughter went to get her--i don't remember that any more--to take her to the hospital. or maybe george bouhe brought her to our house so that my wife, who was free at the time, could take her to the dental clinic. i think that was the next time that we saw marina. maybe a few days later. mr. jenner. in any event, it was before marina went to live with the mellers? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. and it was before marina went to live with the taylors? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. she never lived with the taylors. i think she spent night with them, and that is all. she lived, i think--i think both of them lived somewhere in the neighborhood. i think she spent night with my daughter, when she happened to be in dallas for this medical care. and since they are about the age of my daughter--she is a little bit older, but about the same age--i don't remember how it happened, but either i or my wife introduced marina to my daughter, and also lee. this is very vague in my mind, what happened there. mr. jenner. well, your recollection is that within a few days george bouhe brought marina to your home? mr. de mohrenschildt. i think so. mr. jenner. for the purpose of having your wife take marina to get some dental care? mr. de mohrenschildt. that is right. mr. jenner. and where was she taken? mr. de mohrenschildt. she was taken to the baylor dental clinic. mr. jenner. that is located where? mr. de mohrenschildt. it is right in the center of dallas, near the slaughter hospital--what a name for a hospital. it is the name of the man who founded it. well, the dental clinic is right there next door. they give you dental care gratis, or almost for nothing. george bouhe was giving her money, by the way. mr. jenner. he was giving her money? mr. de mohrenschildt. i mean small amounts of money, you know, either for injections or something like that--because she didn't have anything. mr. jenner. she was destitute, was she? mr. de mohrenschildt. completely destitute--because lee was at the time losing his job. i don't recall when he told me that--maybe already at the first meeting. he told me that he was about to lose his job. he was working somewhere in fort worth as a manual laborer, some ironworker. mr. jenner. leslie welding co.? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; i don't know the name of it. this company was going bankrupt, or that he was going to lose his job. at least that was his version. maybe he was fired. mr. jenner. that was his version. that wasn't the fact. mr. de mohrenschildt. it was a fact? mr. jenner. it was not. your wife also took the baby for some medical care? mr. de mohrenschildt. now, this i am not so sure. she told marina where to go, and told her, "you have to give the baby such and such injections." and this i remember well--that she didn't do it. she didn't go to that children's clinic, because of pure negligence. she is that type of a girl--very negligent, poor mother, very poor mother. loved the child, but a poor mother that doesn't pay much attention. and what amazed us, you know, that she, having been a pharmacist in russia, did not know anything about the good care of the children, nothing. mr. jenner. how did you find out she had been a pharmacist in russia? mr. de mohrenschildt. well, that eventually came--the second time or the third time that we met her--she told us the story of her life. mr. jenner. do you have a recollection as to what she told you? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. well, she said exactly her story of her life as she told me, that she comes from a family of ex-czarist officers. that her father had been a czarist officer of some kind--you see what i mean? i don't remember whether it was navy or army. i don't recall it any more. that her mother remarried, and that her stepfather did not treat her well. that they moved--i think they lived in leningrad when she was a child. that eventually they moved to minsk. i don't remember what her father's profession was. one thing i remember--that one of her uncles was a big shot government official, something like that--colonel or something like that. that i remember she told me. and then she went to this school of pharmacists, i think in minsk, and graduated as a pharmacist. and one day she was walking by this river, which i also remember, in minsk--the river svisloch, which crosses the whole town, and where there are some new apartment buildings built, and in one of those apartment buildings there were very nice apartments, and that is where the foreigners lived. she said it was her dream some day to live in an apartment like that. and that is where lee oswald lived. and eventually when they met--i remember they met at some dance--i think he was ill, something like that, after that dance, and she came to take care of him. that is something i have a vague recollection of--that she took care of him, and from then on they fell in love and eventually got married. but she said it was the apartment house that was one of the greatest things she desired to live in, and she found out later on that lee oswald lived in that apartment house, and she finally achieved her dream. it sounds ridiculous, but that is how in soviet russia they dream of apartments rather than of people. she told us a tremendous amount of things which will come to me as things go on. mr. jenner. go ahead. mr. de mohrenschildt. naturally i was talking to her and to him--i was trying to find out what is life of young people in soviet russia, what are the prices on food, what can you get for your money, what salary you get, what amusements you get. mr. jenner. tell us what they said. mr. de mohrenschildt. the salaries--she was getting an equivalent of $ a month. he was getting something like $ a month. that almost all of it had to be spent on food. the lodging was very cheap, almost nothing, because it was provided by the government. that the food was rather plentiful, you could get it--but it was rather monotonous. sometimes you could not get meat. they used to have discussions between them all the time--always they quarreled about--lee oswald and marina always quarreled between themselves as to what actually were the prices, what actually were the conditions of life in soviet russia. mr. jenner. tell me about the differences here. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. the attitudes she had, and the attitude he had. mr. de mohrenschildt. he liked russia more than she did. i think he liked the conditions in russia more than she did. mr. jenner. why? mr. de mohrenschildt. because he was a foreigner there, and he had a privileged position. he had a nice apartment. he said that people were interested in him, you see. that very often--he worked in a tv factory--the workers would come to him and ask him questions about the united states and so on, and that pleased him very much, because he was that type of an individual who needed attention. marina was more inclined to criticize the living conditions there than he did--as far as i remember. yet she was not too critical, you see. it was a livable way of life. actually, they came to think that possibly their life was better there than in fort worth. in other words, both were disappointed in what happened to them after they came back to the united states. and i think that lee more than marina. because as the time went on, marina was getting more and more things from people--people like the clarks, like ourselves, like george bouhe, started giving her gifts, dresses and so on and so forth. she had some hundred dresses. mr. jenner. a large number of dresses? mr. de mohrenschildt. about a hundred dresses. when we carried them out to live with the mellers, my car was loaded with her dresses. it was all contributions from the various people, in fort worth and dallas. mr. jenner. in addition to dresses and clothing, what other things? mr. de mohrenschildt. well, mainly baby things. she had two cribs, i remember. she had a baby carriage. i think george bouhe gave it to her. toys for the baby. many things like that. mr. jenner. now, you say you carried her out and took her to the mellers? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. this was already possibly weeks after we met them. mr. jenner. now, what was the occasion that you did that, and why did you do it? that was a pretty forward thing to do, was it not? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. in the meantime, lee lost his job and george bouhe told him that he should move to dallas, he will give him an introduction at the texas employment agency--he knew somebody there. and eventually he got a job through that texas employment agency. i don't remember the name of the person who was there--some texas lady whom george bouhe knew. and i told him that i would help him, too, to find a job, and even spoke to sam ballen about it, can he give him a job. and that is probably the only time that sam ballen met oswald. i told him to go to mr. ballen's office--he has a reproduction business, a very large one in texas. mr. jenner. reproduction? mr. de mohrenschildt. reproduction, electric log reproduction service. when they reproduce electrical logs from the oil wells. and also, they print catalogs and things like that in his office. it is quite a large business that he has--with branch offices all over texas, and even in denver, colorado. i said, "why don't you see if you can give him a job?" and i remember that sam saw lee oswald and found him very interesting. i remember i saw him the next day and said, "how did you like lee oswald?" and he said, "nice fellow, very nice fellow, very interesting fellow." mr. jenner. but he did not have any work for him? mr. de mohrenschildt. he didn't have a job for him. and at the same time he received a job at some other outfit--i forgot the name of it--the traffic outfit, and they moved from fort worth to dallas. mr. jenner. you said you entered and took marina out of the house, and the baby? mr. de mohrenschildt. that was a little bit later on--when he already moved to dallas, he already had the job. but now i am trying to recall who moved him from fort worth to dallas, and i think that was gary taylor, my ex-son-in-law, and alex, my daughter. i think they both drove to fort worth. i told them to do so--"go to fort worth and help them, they have no car, they have no money--help them to move." i think in the meantime lee found a job at jaggars, and was looking for a place to live, and found a place to live himself in oak cliff, this address which i don't remember now--the first address in oak cliff. he had two addresses. i forget the exact address. my wife will remember that. anyway, my daughter and her husband went there and moved them. mr. jenner. when was this? mr. de mohrenschildt. well, maybe weeks after we met the oswalds. mr. jenner. september of ? mr. de mohrenschildt. about that time--about september. a little before that, i think, because in september we started the campaign on the cystic fibrosis, and we completely lost track of them--we were very busy on that. and i think it was in september that this campaign started. mr. jenner. and before you started your campaign on cystic fibrosis, they had already moved to dallas? mr. de mohrenschildt. they already moved to dallas. we already had moved them--had taken marina away from her husband. and she already had returned back to her husband. mr. jenner. all right. now, you say you had already taken marina away from her husband. tell us how that occurred. mr. de mohrenschildt. in the meantime. george bouhe became completely disgusted with lee. mr. jenner. why? mr. de mohrenschildt. because--i don't know exactly why--because he liked marina very much. mr. jenner. bouhe? mr. de mohrenschildt. bouhe--he is an elderly man. mr. jenner. yes, i appreciate that. mr. de mohrenschildt. he wanted--almost like a daughter, you see. to him she was a poor girl whose father was an ex-officer, and she needed help. and he really gave her money. he would give her $ , $ , i think, all at once. mr. jenner. did he ever collect money from you and others to contribute? mr. de mohrenschildt. i don't think so. mr. jenner. did you ever give lee oswald any money? mr. de mohrenschildt. no. mr. jenner. did you ever give marina any money? mr. de mohrenschildt. not as far as i remember. maybe a dollar--maybe cents, something like that, for a bus. but never any money. i was in very difficult financial condition myself at that time. i don't think i gave her even cents. sometimes we would invite them to eat a little bit, you see, in the house. mr. jenner. you invited them to your home to eat? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. i think maybe once or twice they came to the house to eat. mr. jenner. your home on dickens street? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. all right, tell us the circumstances---- mr. de mohrenschildt. of how we took her away? mr. jenner. and why. mr. de mohrenschildt. well, george bouhe started telling me that "george, lee is beating marina. i saw her with a black eye and she was crying, and she tried to run away from the house. it is outrageous." and he was really appalled by the fact that it actually happened. and jeanne and i said, let's go and see what is going on. george bouhe gave me their address, as far as i remember, there in oak cliff, because i didn't move them--it was my daughter who moved them, i think. so we drove up there to that apartment, which was on the ground floor, and indeed marina had a black eye. and so either my wife or i told lee, "listen, you cannot do things like this." mr. jenner. was he home at this time? mr. de mohrenschildt. i think he was. or maybe he wasn't. i just am not so sure. maybe he was, maybe he wasn't. but anyway, he appeared a little later. mr. jenner. while you were still there, he appeared? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. and when you entered that apartment on the first floor, you observed that she had a black eye? mr. de mohrenschildt. a black eye, and scratched face, and so on and so forth. mr. jenner. did you inquire about it? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. what did she say? mr. de mohrenschildt. she said, "he has been beating me." as if it was normal--not particularly appalled by this fact, but "he has been beating me", but she said "i fight him back also." so i said, "you cannot stand for that. you shouldn't let him beat you." and she said, "well, i guess i should get away from him." now, i do not recall what actually made me take her away from lee. mr. jenner. now, mr. de mohrenschildt, there has to be something. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes, i know. i do not recall whether she called us in and asked us to take her away from him or george bouhe suggested it. i just don't recall how it happened. but it was because of his brutality to her. possibly we had them in the house and discussed it, and i told him he should not do things like that, and he said, "it is my business"--that is one of the few times that he was a little bit uppity with me. and then again george bouhe told me that he had beaten her again. this is a little bit vague in my memory, what exactly prompted me to do that. my wife probably maybe has a better recollection. anyway, on sunday, instead of playing tennis, we drove to marina's place early in the morning and told oswald that we are going to take her away from him, and the baby also, and we are going to take her to mr. and mrs. meller. i think george bouhe made the previous arrangement, because he was closer to the mellers than i was. or maybe i called them. i don't remember exactly. anyway, they were ready to receive her. and lee said, "by god, you are not going to do it. i will tear all her dresses and i will break all the baby things." and i got very mad this time. but jeanne, my wife, started explaining to him patiently that it is not going to help him any--"do you love your wife?" he said yes. and she said, "if you want your wife back some time, you better behave." i said, "if you don't behave, i will call the police." i felt very nervous about the whole situation--interfering in other people's affairs, after all. well, he said, "i will get even with you." i said, "you will get even with me?" i got a little bit more mad, and i said, "i am going to take marina anyway." so after a little while he started--and i started carrying the things out of the house. and lee did not interfere with me. of course, he was small, you know, and he was a rather puny individual. after a little while he helped me to carry the things out. he completely changed his mind. mr. jenner. he submitted to the inevitable? mr. de mohrenschildt. he submitted to the inevitable, and helped me to carry things. and we cleaned that house completely. we have a big convertible car, and it was loaded--everything was taken out of that house. and we drove very slowly all the way to the other part of the town, lakeside, where the mellers lived, and left her there. mr. jenner. did lee accompany you? mr. de mohrenschildt. no; that was it. the next day or a few days later--i don't remember exactly when--george bouhe called me and said, "george, you should not give lee the address of where marina is." i think he came to see me about that--"because he is a dangerous character, and he has been threatening me, and he had been threatening marina on the telephone." mr. jenner. he knew where marina was? mr. de mohrenschildt. maybe i am confused a little bit. he knew george bouhe's telephone number. he had been threatening him, and wanted to know the telephone number or the address of where marina was. and this time my wife and i said we do not have the right not to let him know where she is, because she is his wife, and we should tell him where marina is. now, i do not recall how it happened--maybe lee came over to our apartment in the evening. anyway, we gave him the address of the mellers, you see, and told him that the best way for him to do is to call ahead of time if he wants to see marina, talk to her on the telephone, and if she wants to see him, she will see him. and he was very happy about that--because i thought it was a fair thing for the fellow to do. i repeat again--i liked the fellow, and i pitied him all the time. and this is--if somebody did that to me, a lousy trick like that, to take my wife away, and all the furniture, i would be mad as hell, too. i am surprised that he didn't do something worse. i would not do it to anybody else. i just didn't consider him a dangerous person. i would not do it to somebody else. well, anyway, later on--this is from hearsay again, now--marina moved to declan ford's house, because i think the mellers got tired of her, and then she moved eventually to somebody else's house--the name you mentioned here before--a russian girl who married an american--thomas something. mr. jenner. ray? mr. de mohrenschildt. ray. she moved to ray's house, and then---- mr. jenner. excuse me. you took her to the mellers? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. and she went from the mellers to the halls? mr. de mohrenschildt. that i do not remember any more. i do not recall that. i thought she moved from the mellers to mrs. ford, and from mrs. ford to the house of the rays. what i recall now is that she had moved before to mrs. hall's house. mr. jenner. you learned that she had already been at mrs. hall's home? mr. de mohrenschildt. something like that is in my mind--that she had already tried to go away from lee, and stayed with mrs. hall. but i am not percent sure. i know that for the second time she was at mrs. hall's house, a little bit later. mr. jenner. what was your understanding of the difficulties they were having? mr. de mohrenschildt. why was he physically beating her? the difficulties were this: she was--just incompatibility. they were annoying each other, and she was all the time annoying him. having had many wives, i could see his point of view. she was annoying him all the time--"why don't you make some money?", why don't they have a car, why don't they have more dresses, look at everybody else living so well, and they are just miserable flunkeys. she was annoying him all the time. poor guy was going out of his mind. mr. jenner. and you and your wife were aware of this, were you? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. and had discussed it---- mr. de mohrenschildt. we told her she should not annoy him--poor guy, he is doing his best. "don't annoy him so much." and i think i mentioned before one annoying thing. she openly said he didn't see her physically--right in front of him. she said, "he sleeps with me just once a month, and i never get any satisfaction out of it." a rather crude and completely straightforward thing to say in front of relative strangers, as we were. mr. jenner. yes. mr. de mohrenschildt. i didn't blame lee for giving her a good whack on the eye. once it was all right. but he also exaggerated. i think the discussions were purely on that basis--purely on a material basis, and on a sexual basis, those two things--which are pretty important. mr. jenner. yes; they are. mr. de mohrenschildt. in politics they agreed more or less. she--they were both somewhat dissatisfied with life in soviet russia. i had that impression. they wanted a richer life. and as far as i remember, it was marina who convinced oswald to leave soviet russia, and go back to the united states. mr. jenner. you have a definite---- mr. de mohrenschildt. i have a definite recollection of that. i do not recall in exact words how it was said. but either one of them told me that--that it was marina who wanted to come to the states, and made him go to the--back to the united states embassy, and ask for his passport. and i remember very distinctly what he told me, that he illegally took a train from minsk to moscow, because being a foreigner, he was not supposed to leave town without notifying the police. he did that illegally, and went to moscow, and presented himself at the united states embassy. mr. jenner. did it come to your attention, or did he ever say to you that--even before he was married, that he had determined to return to the united states, and had taken some steps to do so? mr. de mohrenschildt. no; i don't recall any of that. mr. jenner. your distinct recollection, however, is that she did tell you that she desired to come to the united states, and she pressed him to do so? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; and possibly he was disgusted by that time also, because he was the fellow who needed attention, he was a new fellow in minsk, a new american, so they were all interested in him. and then they lost interest in him eventually. so he became nothing again. so he got disgusted with it. and marina told him, "let's go back to the states, and you take me to the states." now, what is not clear to me--and i never inquired into it, because i was not particularly interested--how she got the permission from the soviet government to leave. that i don't know. mr. jenner. you never discussed that with her? mr. de mohrenschildt. never discussed that. somehow i was not interested to ask her that question. i should have, possibly. mr. jenner. did you ever ask him about it? mr. de mohrenschildt. never asked him this question. testimony of george s. de mohrenschildt resumed the testimony of george s. de mohrenschildt was taken at a.m., on april , , at maryland avenue ne., washington, d.c., by mr. albert e. jenner, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. dr. alfred goldberg, historian, was present. (having been previously duly sworn.) mr. jenner. on the record. mr. de mohrenschildt, you testified yesterday it was your then recollection that marina did not live with your daughter, alexandra, then mrs. gary taylor. mr. de mohrenschildt. that's right. i think she spent one night with them, but never lived with them, as far as i know. mr. jenner. maybe that's it. now, perhaps to refresh your recollection, marina testified--this question was put to her. "did you have anything to do with the gary taylors?" "answer: yes; at one time when i had to visit the dentist in dallas, and i lived in fort worth, i came to dallas and i stayed with them for a couple of days." mr. de mohrenschildt. she probably is right. i think she spent only one day. but i could not swear to that. mr. jenner. now, i want to stimulate your recollection in another respect. your daughter has made a statement that in september of , "my father asked me to allow marina oswald and her child to reside with me at my then home at fairmont street, dallas. my father explained that lee harvey oswald and his wife marina had recently arrived in dallas, tex. they had no money and lee oswald was unemployed. he told me that while marina resided with me, lee oswald would reside at the ymca." does that serve to refresh your recollection? mr. de mohrenschildt. i frankly do not remember. i have the impression that i said "help her as much as you can," but i do not recall saying that she would live with them. i do not think i would have imposed that on my daughter. mr. jenner. well, that testimony of marina that she did live with your daughter for several days, and your daughter's statement, does not---- mr. de mohrenschildt. i do not know about it. maybe they did, maybe they did not. i just do not recall that. mr. jenner. all right. mr. de mohrenschildt. i repeat again that they were out of my mind--completely--after the last time we saw them. mr. jenner. well, this is september of . mr. de mohrenschildt. , sure. they were out of my mind. i forgot the oswalds. mr. jenner. no; , sir. mr. de mohrenschildt. no, no. now the oswalds were out of my mind. mr. jenner. you mean you have not been thinking about them. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; i have not been thinking about them. may i say a few things here that i remember? as i told you before, we met the oswalds through bouhe, and then we talked about them to max clark, and again to bouhe. and i asked mr. bouhe "do you think it is safe for us to help oswald?" mr. jenner. you did have that conversation. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. why did you raise that question? mr. de mohrenschildt. i raised the question because he had been to soviet russia. he could be anything, you see. and he could be right there watched day and night by the fbi. i did not want to get involved, you see. and i distinctly remember, no. , that george bouhe said that he had checked with the fbi. secondly, that in my mind max clark was in some way connected with the fbi, because he was chief of security at convair--he had been a chief of security. and either george bouhe or someone else told me that he is with the fbi to some extent. you never ask people "are you from the fbi?" and to me it is unimportant. but somehow in my mind i had this connected. and so my fears were alleviated, you see. i said, "well, the guy seems to be ok." now, i am not so clear about it, but i have the impression to have talked--to have asked about lee oswald also mr. moore, walter moore. mr. jenner. who is walter moore? mr. de mohrenschildt. walter moore is the man who interviewed me on behalf of the government after i came back from yugoslavia--g. walter moore. he is a government man--either fbi or central intelligence. a very nice fellow, exceedingly intelligent who is, as far as i know--was some sort of an fbi man in dallas. many people consider him head of fbi in dallas. now, i don't know. who does--you see. but he is a government man in some capacity. he interviewed me and took my deposition on my stay in yugoslavia, what i thought about the political situation there. and we became quite friendly after that. we saw each other from time to time, had lunch. there was a mutual interest there, because i think he was born in china and my wife was born in china. they had been to our house i think once or twice. i just found him a very interesting person. when i was writing this book of mine, a very peculiar incident occurred. mr. jenner. which book? mr. de mohrenschildt. the last one--the travelogue. one day we left for houston on a business trip, and i left all my typewritten pages, some typewritten pages, in my closet. when i returned from the trip and started looking through the pages, which had not been touched, supposedly, by anybody i noticed small marks on the pages--"no. " after five pages, " "--small marks with a pencil, another five pages, no. , and so on and so forth. i told my wife "jeanne, have you fiddled around with my book?" she said, "of course not." i said, "that's impossible." and i forgot it for a while. in the evening we got back home, and we stayed in bed, and all of a sudden the idea came back to me that somebody must have been in my apartment and checked my book and read through that and took photographs. and it was such a horrible idea that jeanne and i just could not sleep all night. and the next morning we both of us went to see walter moore and told him, "now, look what happened to us. have you government people"--and i think i asked him point blank, you know--"have you fbi people looked through my book?" he said, "do you consider us such fools as to leave marks on your book if we had? but we haven't." i said, "can't you give me some protection against somebody who has?" he said, "do you have any strong enemies?" i said, "well, i possibly have. everybody has enemies." but i never could figure out who it was. and it is still a mystery to me. so i am not so sure whether i asked point blank clark or walter moore about oswald. i probably spoke to both of them about him. my recollection is, and also my wife's recollection is, that either of them said he is a harmless lunatic. later on max got disgusted with him and said that he is a no-good b-----d, a traitor, and so on and so forth. but by that time we already forgot oswald--got oswald out of your lives, you see. this is one point. the second point is as you can see the whole of the russian colony in dallas were interested in oswald one way or the other, because they represented somebody who had been to their old country just recently, and could give them the latest information on what was going on. as i said, the old guard were naturally against them right away. the others were just curious. but this particular couple, natasha and igor voshinin, refused to see them. and i insisted several times, "why don't you see them? you love all the russians. why don't you meet marina oswald?" and she said, "we don't want to, and we have our reasons for not meeting them." and it kept on in my mind. i did not want to raise that question. but why didn't they want to meet them? mr. jenner. well, tell me what is your speculation as to why they did not want to meet them? mr. de mohrenschildt. i do not have the slightest idea. maybe they knew something about oswald, of some connection. mr. jenner. or maybe they were alarmed, and didn't want to take any chances. mr. de mohrenschildt. maybe just that. mr. jenner. but they were pretty firm in not having any traffic with them. mr. de mohrenschildt. absolutely firm. the only ones. maybe they were just more recently arrived in the united states and they were not so secure like we were, you see. and possibly they were just alarmed of meeting somebody who just came from soviet russia. mr. jenner. i think i will ask you at this point, mr. de mohrenschildt, you are a man of very superior education and extremely wide experience and acquaintance here and in europe, south america, west indies--you have lived an extremely colorful life. you are acquainted to a greater or lesser degree with a great variety of people. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. did there go through your mind speculations as to whether oswald was an agent of anybody? mr. de mohrenschildt. no. mr. jenner. why? before i put it that way--when you say "no," am i correct in assuming that you thought about the subject and you concluded he was not an agent of anybody? is that what you meant? mr. de mohrenschildt. i never thought even about it. i will tell you why i thought he never was--because he was too outspoken. he was too outspoken in his ideas and his attitudes. if he were really--if he were an agent, i thought he would have kept quiet. this would be my idea. mr. jenner. you say he was outspoken. what do you base that on? mr. de mohrenschildt. for instance, he showed me his--he discussed very freely with me, when he showed me his little memoirs. mr. jenner. i am going to show you those papers in a little while. mr. de mohrenschildt. those memoirs i think are very sincere. they explain more or less the sincere attitude of a man, sincere opinion of a man. mr. jenner. before i show you any papers, i want you to finish this reasoning of yours. mr. de mohrenschildt. i did not take him seriously--that is all. mr. jenner. i know you didn't. why didn't you? mr. de mohrenschildt. well---- mr. jenner. you are a highly sophisticated person. mr. de mohrenschildt. well, he was not sophisticated, you see. he was a semieducated hillbilly. and you cannot take such a person seriously. all his opinions were crude, you see. but i thought at the time he was rather sincere. mr. jenner. opinion sincerely held, but crude? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. he was relatively uneducated. mr. de mohrenschildt. oh, yes. mr. jenner. quite, as a matter of fact--he never finished high school. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; i did not even know that. mr. jenner. did you have the feeling that his views on politics were shallow and surface? mr. de mohrenschildt. very much so. mr. jenner. that he had not had the opportunity for a study under scholars who would criticize, so that he himself could form some views on the subject? mr. de mohrenschildt. exactly. his mind was of a man with exceedingly poor background, who read rather advanced books, and did not understand even the words in them. he read complicated economical treatises and just picked up difficult words out of what he has read, and loved to display them. he loved to use the difficult words, because it was to impress one. mr. jenner. did you think he understood it? mr. de mohrenschildt. he did not understand the words--he just used them. so how can you take seriously a person like that? you just laugh at him. but there was always an element of pity i had, and my wife had, for him. we realized that he was sort of a forlorn individual, groping for something. mr. jenner. did you form any impression in the area, let us say, of reliability--that is, whether our government would entrust him with something that required a high degree of intelligence, a high degree of imagination, a high degree of ability to retain his equilibrium under pressure, a management of a situation, to be flexible enough? mr. de mohrenschildt. i never would believe that any government would be stupid enough to trust lee with anything important. mr. jenner. give me the basis of your opinion. mr. de mohrenschildt. well, again, as i said, an unstable individual, mixed-up individual, uneducated individual, without background. what government would give him any confidential work? no government would. even the government of ghana would not give him any job of any type. mr. jenner. you used the expression "unstable." would you elaborate on that? mr. de mohrenschildt. well, unstability--his life is an example of his instability. he switched allegiance from one country to another, and then back again, disappointed in this, disappointed in that, tried various jobs. but he did it, you see, without the enjoyment of adventure--like some other people would do in the united states, a new job is a new adventure, new opportunities. for him it was a gruesome deal. he hated his jobs. he switched all the time. mr. jenner. now, let's assume he switched jobs because he was discharged from those jobs. does that affect your opinion? that is, assume now for the purpose of discussion that he lost every one of his jobs. mr. de mohrenschildt. well, frankly, if i--you always base your opinion on your own experience. if i had my own country since my childbirth, and my government, i would remain faithful to it for the rest of my life. he had a chance to be a marine. here was a perfect life for him--this was my point of view. he was a man without education, in the marines--why didn't he stay in the marines all his life? you don't need a high degree of intelligence to be a marine corporal or a soldier. mr. jenner. that is, it was your thought---- mr. de mohrenschildt. that was my idea. mr. jenner. that if he had an objective that he could have had, it would be to stay in the marines and become a marine officer, and have a career in the marines. mr. de mohrenschildt. that is right. well, instead of that he disliked it and switched to something else. i do not know the details of all his jobs, you see, but i certainly can evaluate people just by looking at them--because i have met so many people in my profession--you have to evaluate them by just looking at them and saying a few words. mr. jenner. did you form an impression of him, mr. de mohrenschildt, as to his reliability in a different sense now--that is, whether he was reasonably mentally stable or given to violent surges of anger or lack of control of himself? mr. de mohrenschildt. of course, he was that. the fact that we took his wife away from him, you know, was the result of his outbursts and his threats to his wife. mr. jenner. what kind of threats? mr. de mohrenschildt. well, that he will beat the hell out of her. i think marina told me that he threatened to kill her. it comes back to my mind, you see. you asked me yesterday a question, what actually precipitated us taking marina and the little child away from oswald. mr. jenner. you actually took marina and the child away? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. so what actually precipitated that? something must have precipitated it. i cannot recall what it was. but now i seem to vaguely remember that marina said that he would kill her, that he will beat her sometime so hard that he will kill her. so that is the reason we went out there and said--well, let's save that poor woman. mr. jenner. where were they living then? mr. de mohrenschildt. they were living then at the first address in oak cliff--ruth street, i think. it is a two-story brick building. mr. jenner. mercedes? mr. de mohrenschildt. ruth street. i do not remember mercedes street. mr. jenner. elsbeth? mr. de mohrenschildt. elsbeth--yes. mr. jenner. he never lived on any street by the name of ruth. mr. de mohrenschildt. no. mr. jenner. yesterday you adverted, i thought, to a concept that this man seemed--he responded when you would bring him into a conversation or situation. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. that he was somewhat egocentric in that respect? mr. de mohrenschildt. very much so. and that is probably the reason that he was clinging to me. he was clinging to me. he would call me. he would try to be next to me--because, let's face it, i am a promotor and a salesman. so i know how to talk with people. i usually do not offend people's feelings. when i talk to people, i am interested in them. and he appreciated that in me. the other people considered him, well, he is just some poor, miserable guy, and disregarded him. mr. jenner. now, i would like to go into that a moment. it gradually developed, did it, that the people in the russian colony, their curiosity--they had curiosity at the outset, and they had interest at the outset. mr. de mohrenschildt. that's right. mr. jenner. they met him at your home and other homes? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. i take it you now suggest that after a while their interest in him waned? mr. de mohrenschildt. it disappeared mainly; yes. mr. jenner. and was it replaced by something else? mr. de mohrenschildt. dislike, mostly dislike, and fear. mr. jenner. what was the fear? mr. de mohrenschildt. especially on the part of a scary individual, like george bouhe--he was actually physically afraid of him. mr. jenner. george bouhe was? mr. de mohrenschildt. george bouhe. he was actually physically afraid of him. he told me, "i am scared of this man. he is a lunatic." i said, "don't be scared of him. he is just as small as you are." mr. jenner. yes, but george bouhe is a small man. you are a well-built, athletic, six foot-one. what did you weigh then? mr. de mohrenschildt. pounds. i was not afraid of him, naturally, but george bouhe was. mr. jenner. and that is not your nature, anyhow, that is not your personality as i observe you testifying. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; he was that way, you know. now, max clark naturally was not afraid of him because max clark himself is an athlete, an ex-colonel in the air force, i think. he just disliked him, and he said to hell with that fellow, because lee was rude to him. mr. jenner. who was rude? mr. de mohrenschildt. lee oswald was rude to max clark and to his wife. they invited him on some occasion--this i remember vaguely--they invited him at some occasion to come to their house. and lee said, "well, i will come if it is convenient to me." imagine that--an answer of that type. mr. jenner. now, the clarks, certainly mr. clark--i do not know too much about mrs. clark--but mr. clark is an educated man. mr. de mohrenschildt. very educated man. mr. jenner. and a man of attainment. he is an attorney, is he not? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. did it occur to you that here is a person who is relatively uneducated, of limited capacity--i think this man had intelligence---- mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. being invited to the home socially of a man of capacity? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. a lawyer, a leader in the community with a fine service record. what was your reaction to that? mr. de mohrenschildt. well, max invited him purely because his wife was russian and she would like to speak russian once in a while. mr. jenner. you think lee resented that, do you--that the interest was in marina and not in lee oswald? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; definitely. oh, that is an exceedingly important point, you know. lee resented the interest that people would take in marina. he wanted the interest concentrated on himself. mr. jenner. and did he exhibit that in your home and at other gatherings where you saw him? did he interrupt so that the attention might be drawn to him and away from her? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; he was not---- mr. jenner. i do not want to put the words in your mouth. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes, i understand what you mean. i am trying to think of a particular case that i would remember. i do not remember any particular case, but i always took him and considered him as an egocentric person. i do not remember any particular incident, but i knew that he wanted the attention to himself, always. not in any particular case, but always. and he would rather disregard what marina would say. and this is possibly the reason for his not wanting to--for marina to learn english, so she would stay completely in the background. mr. jenner. now, you opened that subject which i want to inquire of you about. did you people in the russian colony--did you consider that? did you regard that as unusual? mr. de mohrenschildt. right from the very first day my wife told marina, "you have to learn english, you have to be able to communicate, and especially since you do not get along with your husband and you are going to leave him some day--you have to be able to support your child and yourself. you have to learn english and start immediately on it." we gave her some records to study english--not mine, but my wife's and her daughter's records, of shakespearian english, how to learn english, and they obviously still have those records. mr. jenner. yes, they were found in mrs. paine's home. mr. de mohrenschildt. we even gave them a phonograph, i think, a cheap phonograph, to play the records. mr. jenner. you gave them records? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. you also gave them an instrument to play them on? mr. de mohrenschildt. a cheap phonograph, to play those records. mr. jenner. what else do you recall giving them--dresses? mr. de mohrenschildt. i do not---- mr. jenner. toys for the baby? mr. de mohrenschildt. toys for the baby, definitely. and i am sure that my wife had given some dresses. but she will remember better than i do. but we never gave them one cent of money. this i recall--never--and lee would not take money, you see. i might have given him a little bit if he had asked. but he was very proud about it. he resented when people gave something to marina. marina would take anything, you see--she would take anything from ¢ up to anything. and the more the better. but lee did not want to take anything. he had a very proud attitude. that is one of the reasons i sort of liked him, because of that. he was not a beggar, not a sponger. mr. jenner. did you notice over the period of time you knew him developments of resentment on his part of, say, these people in the russian colony who had come here and had established themselves to a greater or lesser degree? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; it was a very strong resentment on his part. it was almost an insane jealousy of people who succeeded where he could not succeed. mr. jenner. did you ever have any discussions with him on that? how did you acquire this feeling? mr. de mohrenschildt. that was again through my understanding of human nature, rather than from direct conversation. from hearsay, rather. you see, no. , for instance, the fact that he was so rude to the clarks, because they lived very well. it is an insult in his face, the house that the clarks have--very luxurious home, two cars, and so on and so forth. it is a slap in his face. this same thing that george bouhe, a refugee, would give marina $ or $ or a new baby crib, like that, like nothing. that was a slap in his face. the fact that i had a new convertible was a slap in his face. but he was not stupid enough just to say so. but you can feel that. mr. jenner. well, it might have been---- mr. de mohrenschildt. and maybe george bouhe, unfortunately annoyed him unintentionally with that. mr. jenner. well, that might be possible. george bouhe--my impression of him is that he is a direct man. mr. de mohrenschildt. george bouhe's intention was to take marina away from oswald very soon--not for himself, but to liberate her from oswald. that is a fact. mr. jenner. you had discussions with george bouhe? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; he said, "we have to take this girl away from him," and this is one of the things that prompted us to take marina and the child away from oswald. we discussed all that with george bouhe--to make her a little bit happier--maybe she will make another life for herself, and especially for the baby. i had lost my child, you know, just a year and a half before, or years before. i am fond of babies. i wanted this baby to be happy and have some sort of a future. mr. jenner. did you discuss with oswald this subject of marina acquiring a greater facility in the command of the english language? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. and what was---- mr. de mohrenschildt. he said, "i don't want her to study english because i want to speak russian to her, i will forget my russian if i do not practice it every day." these are the words which i remember distinctly. and how many times i told him, "you have to let your wife learn english. this is a very egotistical attitude on your part." mr. jenner. very selfish. mr. de mohrenschildt. very selfish. he would not answer to that. mr. jenner. did it occur to you as a possibility, or among others in the russian colony, that he might have had another objective, and that is that she would return to russia? mr. de mohrenschildt. never. that never occurred to me. i do not think that. knowing marina, she would never go back to russia. she liked the united states. she liked the facilities of life here. of course, you never know people. you cannot vouch for them. but that was our opinion. maybe we simplified too much the matters. i do not know. mr. jenner. did there come a time in the spring or the midwinter of , latter part of january, and in february, in which there was any discussion, or you learned that marina had made application to the russian embassy to return to russia? mr. de mohrenschildt. no. mr. jenner. no discussion? mr. de mohrenschildt. no discussion of that. mr. jenner. and except for my now uttering it, you have been wholly unaware of it? mr. de mohrenschildt. wholly unaware of it. totally unaware of that, never heard of that. what we learned, at that period--that she had her child christened in the greek orthodox church against oswald's strong objections. mr. jenner. were you personally aware of those objections? mr. de mohrenschildt. no. i just heard that he objected to marina doing it--and she took the child to church anyway and had the child christened. but i do not recall the circumstances. somebody told me that. mr. jenner. but you are unaware of any discussion of her returning to russia in the spring or late winter of -- , that winter? mr. de mohrenschildt. no. mr. jenner. and she never appealed to you that he was forcing her to make application to the russian embassy? mr. de mohrenschildt. i do not recall anything of that kind. mr. jenner. mr. de mohrenschildt, it appears to be the consensus in that russian colony, that community, that oswald reached a point where he resented all the people other than you; that he had a liking for you. mr. de mohrenschildt. well, i explained to you that i do not know whether he had a liking or not. mr. jenner. or respect, or something. mr. de mohrenschildt. i treated him nicely. my wife treated them like human beings, disregarding their bad qualities. because that is our way of treating poor people. my philosophy is--you may object to that--but my philosophy is not to bend in front of the strong and be very nice to the poor--as nice as i can. and they were very miserable, lost, penniless, mixed up. so as much as they both annoyed me, i did not show it to them because it is like insulting a beggar--you see what i mean. well, the other russians obviously do not have such a charitable attitude. i do not think he has ever been, for instance--i am trying to think whether he had a resentment against all of the russian colony or not. i would not say so. i do not know how was his attitude toward mr. gregory. i think they remained pretty--not close, but on speaking terms. mr. jenner. that seems to be so. mr. de mohrenschildt. because mr. gregory is a very fine person--very fine person, who is an elderly man, who is nice to a poor person. mr. jenner. your impression is that he, to use the vernacular a little bit--he was sort of eating on himself, he wanted to amount to something, and he appeared to be unable to, and was constantly groping. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. that is his main--his makeup--trying to do something. one conversation i had with him--i asked him "would you like to be a commissar in the united states," just teasing him. and he said--he sort of smiled--you could see that it was a delightful idea. to me it was a ridiculous question to ask. but he took me seriously. i laughed with the guy. sometimes i would laugh, i would tease him. and it was amusing. but i tried not to offend him, because, after all, he was a human being. and in addition to that--in my case we had a point of contact which was the fact that he lived in minsk, where i lived when i was a child also, where my father was this marshal of nobility. and later on in life i lived in poland, very close to that area. i was interested in how the peasants were getting along, what does he find in the forest there, what kind of mushrooms you find, that type of conversation went on sometimes. mr. jenner. did he appear to have knowledge and recollection of things in which you were interested in the community, the countryside? mr. de mohrenschildt. very much so. that was a likable characteristic he had. for instance, he liked animals. my dog was sort of friendly with him. when he would come, my dog would not bark. he liked walking. he told me that around minsk he used to take long walks in the forest which i thought was very fine. those are contacts that possibly brought a certain understanding between us. he spoke very interestingly about the personalities of fellow workers there at his factory. mr. jenner. i want you to keep ruminating in this fashion, because these things will come to you. what did he say about his work there? mr. de mohrenschildt. well, he said that the work was all right, not too hard, not too well paid, that it was very boring. that later, after the work, he had to be present at all sorts of meetings, political meetings. he said he got bored to death. every day he had to stay for an hour at some kind of a meeting, the factory meeting. and this is a thing i thought was very intelligent, because that is one of the points that is really hateful in a communist country--the meetings after work. that i noticed through my own experience in yugoslavia, that the engineers and the plain workers just hated that--a political meeting after working hours. and lee oswald also resented that in russia. and i thought it was a rather intelligent---one of the intelligent remarks that he made. and he repeated that very often--that is the thing he hated in russia; resented, rather than hated. well, he described the personalities of some of the people that he knew there which i do not recall anymore. but some of them nice, and some of them less nice, and some of them very much interested in the united states, some of them unfriendly--that sort of vague recollection. mr. jenner. did you engage him in conversation respecting communism as a political ideal and his reactions to that? mr. de mohrenschildt. he kept on repeating that he was not a communist. i asked him point blank, "are you a member of the communist party?" and he said no. he said, "i am a marxist." kept on repeating it. mr. jenner. did you ask him what he meant by that? mr. de mohrenschildt. i never frankly asked him to elaborate on that, because again, you know the word "marxism" is very boring to me. just the sound of that word is boring to me. mr. jenner. what impression did you get in that connection as to whether he was seeking some mean or middle ground between democracy and what he thought communism was? mr. de mohrenschildt. possibly he was seeking for something, but knowing what kind of brains he had, and what kind of education, i was not interested in listening to him, because it was nothing, it was zero. mr. jenner. i see. it was your impression, then he could contribute nothing? mr. de mohrenschildt. no, he could contribute absolutely nothing except for a remark like that about the meetings, which was just an ordinary remark a person of his intelligence could understand. but when it comes to dialectic materialism, i do not want to hear that word again. mr. jenner. did discussions occur as to his attempted defection? mr. de mohrenschildt. from the united states to russia? mr. jenner. yes. mr. de mohrenschildt. how it happened? mr. jenner. yes. mr. de mohrenschildt. why it happened and how it happened? mr. jenner. yes. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. tell me about that. mr. de mohrenschildt. a few words i remember now. he said that while he was in japan he saw tremendous injustice. by that he meant, i think, the poverty of the japanese working class or the proletariat, as he called them, and the rich people in japan. he said it was more visible than anywhere else. now, i have never been in japan, and i cannot vouch for that. but that is what he told me. and he also told me that he had some contacts with the japanese communists in japan, and they--that got him interested to go and see what goes on in the soviet union. mr. jenner. just concentrate on this, please. tell me everything you can now recall as to what he said about--you used the term, what we lawyers call a conclusion. you said he had some contacts with the communists in japan. now, try and recall what he said or as near---- mr. de mohrenschildt. i see what you mean. since it was so removed from my interest, i did not insist. i just heard that. mr. jenner. just give me your best recollection. mr. de mohrenschildt. that is all i recall--that he said, "i have met some communists in japan and they got me excited and interested, and that was one of my inducements in going to soviet russia, to see what goes on there." mr. jenner. did you form any opinion that this man, because of his meager boyhood, on the verge of poverty, or in poverty all during his youth and up to the time he went into the marines at least, that he had some groping for a ready solution that would not permit that sort of thing? mr. de mohrenschildt. naturally. that's the whole point. i could understand his point of view, because that is what happens exactly in the whole world with dissatisfied people. if they are constructive, they study more and try to get good jobs and succeed. the other try to form a revolutionary party. and he was one of them. mr. jenner. the other try to do it overnight, by force of arms. mr. de mohrenschildt. that's right. mr. jenner. did you ever discuss with him that there are many great men and women who have come from poverty? mr. de mohrenschildt. oh, yes. you could not discuss it with oswald because he knew it all. mr. jenner. he always knew what the answer was. mr. de mohrenschildt. he always knew what the answer was. and possibly that is why he was clinging to us, to my wife and me, because we did not discuss it with them, because we did not give a damn. after we found out what was going on in that town of minsk, what was the situation, what were the food prices, how they dressed, how they spent their evenings, which are things interesting to us, our interest waned. the rest of the time, the few times we saw lee oswald and marina afterwards, was purely to give a gift, to take them to a party, because we thought they were dying of boredom, you see--which marina was. mr. jenner. she was? mr. de mohrenschildt. she was, because he never would take her any place. that was the reason we invited them twice--once to a party at declan ford's--and that was, i think, a christmas party. and another time a party at everett glover's, where i was showing my movie to the whole group. because i thought they would be exceedingly--marina was dying of boredom there. mr. jenner. let me get to that party at declan ford's. that was--was that a new year's day or new year's eve party? mr. de mohrenschildt. i think it was right at christmas or new year's eve. mr. jenner. the party went on for a couple of days, didn't it? mr. de mohrenschildt. a couple of days? mr. jenner. yes. mr. de mohrenschildt. i did not know that the party ran for a couple of days. but we arrived at o'clock and left around or , and it was still going strong. mr. jenner. well, i suppose when a witness said it lasted a couple of days, maybe the witness was thinking it started in the early evening of one day and did not end until well into the next day. mr. de mohrenschildt. no; it was not any of those wild parties. it was a very friendly, very good party. mr. jenner. i'm not suggesting the party was wild. there is no intimation of that. mr. de mohrenschildt. no--on the contrary, they are very hospitable people invited, and always had a congenial crowd there. and that is why we suggested, let's bring that miserable marina and oswald there, so they would meet some people. and i think if people continued doing that, if people did that, maybe this tragedy might not have occurred. mr. jenner. or it might have become worse--his resentment. mr. de mohrenschildt. maybe so. mr. jenner. did marina smoke? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. oh, boy, this is an interesting question. she loved to smoke and would smoke as many cigarettes as she could lay her hands on. and you know, oswald did not smoke and forbade her to smoke. this is the reason--one of the reasons they fought so bitterly--because he would take the cigarette away from her and slap her. mr. jenner. in your presence? mr. de mohrenschildt. in my presence, would take the cigarette away from her and push her, "you are not going to do that", in a dictatorial way. so i would say, "now, stop it, let her smoke." and then he would relax. but that is the type of person he was. but not in our presence--when we were away, marina said he would not let her smoke nor drink, i think. he refused to let her drink either. and she liked to have a drink. with all her defects, she is more or less a normal person, and rather happy-go-lucky, a very happy-go-lucky girl. mr. jenner. what about his drinking? mr. de mohrenschildt. i never saw him drink. maybe he would take a very little, but i never saw him drink more than half a glass--as far as i remember. i didn't pay too much attention. maybe that is why he was tense, because he did not drink enough. he was always tense. that guy was always under some kind of pressure. mr. jenner. you have that impression? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; always some kind of a pressure. mr. jenner. and this was an inward pressure, you thought? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; some inward pressure. mr. jenner. see if i can refresh your recollection a little about that party, the first of the parties. i am going to ask you about the second one as well in a moment. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. do you remember being present at that party mr. and mrs. thomas ray? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. if they are the people whom i identify as he being a man in the advertising business and she a girl of russian origin--a friend of mrs. ford. mr. jenner. he married her when he was in germany. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; that's it--something like that. you know, in this group of the russian emigres, there were two people who came from soviet russia--there were mrs. ford and this lady, an entirely different type of individual--the new blood. they were younger and they were brought up in soviet russia. mr. jenner. yes; they were people---- mr. de mohrenschildt. they were so-called--what do you call--displaced persons, who were grabbed by the germans and displaced in germany, and then the american soldiers grabbed them and married them. both of them were the same type. very nice people, but they had a different background. mr. jenner. now, this party occurred on the th and th of december. mr. de mohrenschildt. as far as i remember, it was around new year's day. mr. jenner. and it was at the declan fords? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. was george bouhe there? mr. de mohrenschildt. i think so. mr. jenner. and mr. and mrs. meller? mr. de mohrenschildt. i think so, too. and a lot of other people. mr. jenner. there is another ray couple, mr. and mrs. frank ray. mr. de mohrenschildt. that i do not know. mr. jenner. mr. and mrs. c. e. harris? mr. de mohrenschildt. i do not recall them. mr. jenner. charles e. harris? mr. de mohrenschildt. i think i recall this person. he is a tall man with grayish hair. mr. jenner. from georgetown, tex. mr. de mohrenschildt. a tall man with grayish hair. mr. jenner. his wife was russian born. mr. de mohrenschildt. i don't know them well. i probably would recognize them if i saw them. mr. jenner. were there some people by the name of jackson at that party who had a very lavish house? mr. de mohrenschildt. jackson? i know a jackson who has a very lavish house. he is a geologist also. but i do not recall seeing them at the party. mr. jenner. there is some testimony that in the early morning hours the party adjourned to the jackson's house. mr. de mohrenschildt. well, we had already left. mr. jenner. john and elena hall. they were there. mr. de mohrenschildt. i do not recall that. i met them, i think, only once--i met her twice or three times. i recall her pretty well. but i do not recall him. mr. jenner. tatiana biggers. mr. de mohrenschildt. that is the person i could not identify. i don't know who she is. mr. jenner. also present, lydia dymitruk. mr. de mohrenschildt. i think so. i think i remember her. mr. jenner. a single person, divorced. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; i think i remember her. mr. jenner. slightly built, slender, short. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; i remember her. she was married to some "cuckoo nut," another "cuckoo nut" who escaped from soviet russia--dymitruk. he came to ask me for a job, her husband. he came to ask me for a job several times, and then he disappeared. mr. jenner. lydia dymitruk's husband? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; her ex-husband. i understand she is a very nice person, very hard working, and is making a living for herself, and that she left him. that is my recollection. mr. jenner. you brought the oswalds to the party? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. and---- mr. de mohrenschildt. having asked previously either myself or my wife--having asked mrs. ford would she mind having the oswalds, because they seemed to be bored to death, especially marina seemed to be bored to death. and she said yes. mr. jenner. and after a while you folks left, around midnight? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. and did you take the oswalds with you? mr. de mohrenschildt. i think we did. and this is the reason why--because i think they left the child in our house while they came to the party, and we asked another friend of ours, an elderly lady, mrs. frangipanni, to take care of the baby while they were gone, which she did. mr. jenner. did oswald drink at that party? mr. de mohrenschildt. that i do not recall. i know i drank quite a few glasses. mr. jenner. what impression did you have as to how the people at the party reacted to marina and to oswald--take them separately. mr. de mohrenschildt. i did not pay any attention. i left them to their own devices. i spoke to various people. i thought i had done my duty by bringing them along. what really impressed me that particular night was an extraordinary interest which developed between this japanese girl, yaeko--i don't remember her last name--but i already had given that impression of mine at the american embassy so they could check on that. she was a japanese girl, very good looking, who worked, i think, at neiman-marcus in dallas, and was brought into dallas from japan by some people in the cotton business to take care of their babies. now, this girl is a much superior girl as to be just a baby caretaker. she eventually left that couple--that is all hearsay, you see, and became sort of a girl friend of a russian musician who lives in dallas by the name of lev aronson. and i do not recall whether he was at the party or not. but yaeko was, and they developed an immediate interest in each other--oswald and yaeko. they just went on sight and started talking and talking and talking. i thought that was understandable because oswald had been in japan, you see. but the interest was so overwhelming that marina objected, and became very jealous. she told us, either that night or later, that oswald got her telephone number, she noticed that oswald got this girl's telephone number. and once or twice later on she told us that she has the impression that oswald is carrying on something with this girl. now, this is hearsay again. but---- mr. jenner. well, it is not hearsay that marina told you. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; but hearsay that they are carrying something on. that is what she told us. but nothing definite. mr. jenner. did you notice any incidents in which--at that party--in which people---- mr. de mohrenschildt. my wife will tell you more about this yaeko incident, because she knows a little bit better. mr. jenner. i will make a note of that so i can talk to her about it. mr. de mohrenschildt. and she is more on the gossipy side. i'm always happy if a girl likes a boy and a boy likes a girl--it does not matter who they are. mr. jenner. were there any incidents that you recall in which members at that party were talking with marina and oswald interrupted? mr. de mohrenschildt. no; i do not recall, because i did not speak to them. i just left them alone, hoping that they would find some people to talk to. mr. jenner. and the contacts you had with marina and lee, was there ever any discussion on the subject of whether people in russia when they were there were chary about talking with lee because they were afraid he might be an agent of some kind? mr. de mohrenschildt. it is a question i have to try to think a little bit about. i have a vague recollection that either lee or marina did tell me the people were afraid of him, and i think that was probably oswald that told me, that the people were afraid of him, like many foreigners. so i thought that was very understandable, because you know the communists are scared--not the communists, but the people in russia are scared to talk to foreigners. we had an incident ourselves when we went to mexico, to a russian exhibit, to a russian fair, and tried to speak to an architect there in charge of the architectural exhibit. this was a lady architect, a charming woman. we spoke to her for about minutes, and then she disappeared, and you could not find her any more. she ran away from us. she was scared of us. that is the usual thing. so i did not pay particular attention to that fact. if people were scared of talking to oswald, it was understandable. mr. jenner. did that ever arise, discussions as to why--possibly affecting his desire to return to the united states? mr. de mohrenschildt. i do not recall that. the most important answer i think i got from oswald--and that was one of the reasons we liked him and thought that he was rather intelligent in his estimation of soviet russia--is the fact that we asked him, both my wife and i, "why did you leave soviet russia", and he said very sincerely, "because i did not not find what i was looking for." mr. jenner. and did you ask him what he was looking for? mr. de mohrenschildt. a utopia. i knew what he was looking for--utopia. and that does not exist any place. mr. jenner. this man could not find what he was looking for anywhere in this world. mr. de mohrenschildt. he could not find it in the states, he could not find it any place. mr. jenner. he could find it only in him. mr. de mohrenschildt. exactly. he could find it in himself, in a false image of grandeur that he built in himself. but at the time that we knew him that was not so obvious. now you can see that, as a possible murderer of the president of the united states, he must have been unbelievably egotistical, an unbelievably egotistical person. mr. jenner. do you know what paranoia is? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. well---- mr. de mohrenschildt. i know it very well. mr. jenner. did you notice---- mr. de mohrenschildt. because i am interested in medicine. mr. jenner. did you notice any tendencies--this may be rationalization, of course, now that you are thinking back. mr. de mohrenschildt. i would call him a stage below definite paranoia, which means a highly neurotic individual. but even an m.d. would not give you a right definition, or a right demarcation between the two. mr. jenner. did you have any feeling, while you knew him, and before this tragic event occurred, that there was any mental aberration of that nature? mr. de mohrenschildt. i did not know anything about his background, you see. i did not know anything about his previous background, except that he had been in the marine corps, that he came from a poor family, that he had lived in new orleans. that is all i knew about him. mr. jenner. i wanted to ask you about that. was your discussion with him as to his background, let us say, if i may use a conclusion myself, superficial? mr. de mohrenschildt. very superficial, because i was not--i know that type of person, i know his background. i know the people in new orleans. i lived there. i know people in texas of the very low category. i know the way they live. i could see clearly what type of background he had. i did not have to ask him questions. and he mentioned that while living in new orleans, and very poorly, he started going to the public library to read the marxist books, all by himself. that he was not induced by anybody. i said, "who told you to read the marxist books"--that interested me. and he said, "nobody, i went by myself. i started studying it all by myself." mr. jenner. he read those high-level books, but in your opinion he did not understand them? mr. de mohrenschildt. i would not understand them. i would not bother reading them. i never read any marxist books, because i know what they contain. mr. jenner. but you could read them with a critical mind, could you not? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; i could read with a critical mind. but that is something that does not interest me. and i know that they are very difficult. i know that they are written in a difficult manner, that they are highly theoretical, and to me very boring. mr. jenner. there is some intimation that at this party oswald had said several times that he liked russia and he might go back. did you overhear any of that? mr. de mohrenschildt. no. mr. jenner. and from all your contact with him, had he ever expressed that notion to you, that he might go back? mr. de mohrenschildt. i do not recall exactly, but something comes to my mind that he might have mentioned that, that if he does not get a better job, or if he does not become successful, he might as well go back to russia. mr. jenner. well, this was really something said in despair. mr. de mohrenschildt. more or less--"after all, what is my life in russia"--i remember he said that, that his life in russia was actually better than here. but marina never said that. mr. jenner. she didn't? mr. de mohrenschildt. no. mr. jenner. do you remember some people at that party by the name of mr. and mrs. daniel f. sullivan of lafayette, la., a divisional geologist for continental oil co.? mr. de mohrenschildt. no. mr. jenner. was there any discussion at that party about the possibility that oswald might be a russian agent? mr. de mohrenschildt. i never heard that. mr. jenner. and that this theory was thrown out because oswald was broke, and that it could not be that way, because russia would not permit one of its agents to be that penniless? mr. de mohrenschildt. that is an intelligent estimation, but i certainly have not heard that. mr. jenner. any discussion there or speculation that there was something peculiar in the fact that allegedly they had had little trouble in getting marina out of russia? mr. de mohrenschildt. that he had trouble getting her out? mr. jenner. relatively little. mr. de mohrenschildt. that is a question that always was sort of a big question mark to me. not being interested, i did not probe them. but it always remained a question mark in my mind, how is it possible for somebody to take a citizen of soviet russia so easily out of the country. but i have known of other examples of it being done. mr. jenner. was there any discussion at any time while you knew the oswalds about any attempt to commit suicide? mr. de mohrenschildt. when he was in russia, no; i don't remember anything about that. mr. jenner. did you ever notice he had a scar on his left wrist? mr. de mohrenschildt. no; i didn't notice it. mr. jenner. did you ever note whether he was right or left handed? mr. de mohrenschildt. something vaguely i remember that he might be left handed but i could not recall. mr. jenner. this is pure vagueness on your part? mr. de mohrenschildt. very, very. my wife may recall that. mr. jenner. you wouldn't want to express any opinion one way or the other on it? mr. de mohrenschildt. no. mr. jenner. did you ever discuss with him his experiences in russia with respect to hunting? mr. de mohrenschildt. never have. mr. jenner. no discussions? mr. de mohrenschildt. or the use of any weapons or his right to have weapons when he was in russia? mr. de mohrenschildt. i did not know even that he was interested in weapons 'til the day--which probably you will ask me later on--easter, i think, when my wife saw his gun. i didn't know he was interested. i didn't know he had the gun. i didn't know he was interested in shooting or hunting. i didn't know he was a good shot or never had any impression. mr. jenner. now that you have mentioned that we might as well cover that fully in the record. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. tell me about that incident. mr. de mohrenschildt. that incident is very clear in my mind. mr. jenner. this was in ? mr. de mohrenschildt. in , and the last time we saw them. mr. jenner. it was the last time? mr. de mohrenschildt. the very last time we saw them. mr. jenner. this was around eastertime? mr. de mohrenschildt. around eastertime. mr. jenner. in april? mr. de mohrenschildt. in april. it was in the second apartment that they had. mr. jenner. that was on neely street? mr. de mohrenschildt. on neely i think one block from the previous place they used to live. mr. jenner. yes. mr. de mohrenschildt. and jeanne told me that day, "let's go and take a rabbit for oswald's baby." mr. jenner. this was on easter sunday? mr. de mohrenschildt. easter day. i don't remember it was easter sunday. mr. jenner. easter is always on sunday. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; maybe it was the day before, the day after, but i think it was on the holiday. maybe my wife will remember the date exactly. and so we drove over quite late in the evening and walked up--i think they were asleep. they were asleep and we knocked at the door and shouted, and lee oswald came down undressed, half undressed you see, maybe in shorts, and opened the door and we told him that we have the rabbit for the child. and it was a very short visit, you know. we just gave the rabbit to the baby and i was talking to lee while jeanne was talking to marina about something which is immaterial which i do not recall right now, and all of a sudden---- mr. jenner. excuse me. mr. reporter, jeanne is spelled j-e-a-n-n-e. mr. de mohrenschildt. and i think oswald and i were standing near the window looking outside and i was asking him "how is your job" or "are you making any money? are you happy," some question of that type. all of a sudden jeanne who was with marina in the other room told me "look, george, they have a gun here." and marina opened the closet and showed it to jeanne, a gun that belonged obviously to oswald. mr. jenner. this was a weapon? did you go in and look? mr. de mohrenschildt. no; i didn't look at the gun. i was still standing. the closet was open. jeanne was looking at it, at the gun, and i think she asked marina "what is that" you see. that was the sight on the gun. "what is that? that looks like a telescopic sight." and marina said "that crazy idiot is target shooting all the time." so frankly i thought it was ridiculous to shoot target shooting in dallas, you see, right in town. i asked him "why do you do that?" mr. jenner. what did he say? mr. de mohrenschildt. he said "i go out and do target shooting. i like target shooting." so out of the pure, really jokingly i told him "are you then the guy who took a pot shot at general walker?" and he smiled to that, because just a few days before there was an attempt at general walker's life, and it was very highly publicized in the papers, and i knew that oswald disliked general walker, you see. so i took a chance and i asked him this question, you see, and i can clearly see his face, you know. he sort of shriveled, you see, when i asked this question. mr. jenner. he became tense? mr. de mohrenschildt. became tense, you see, and didn't answer anything, smiled, you know, made a sarcastic--not sarcastic, made a peculiar face. mr. jenner. the expression on his face? mr. de mohrenschildt. that is right, changed the expression on his face. mr. jenner. you saw that your remark to him---- mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. had an effect on him. mr. de mohrenschildt. had an effect on him. but naturally he did not say yes or no, but that was it. that is the whole incident. i remember after we were leaving, marina went in the garden and picked up a large bouquet of roses for us. they have nice roses downstairs and gave us the roses to thank for the gift of the rabbit. mr. jenner. do you recall an occasion when you came to their home---- mr. de mohrenschildt. excuse me, before i forget i wanted to insist on one thing which i meant to tell you before that. what was the main thing that i really liked about oswald, you see. you asked me that question before. mr. jenner. yes. mr. de mohrenschildt. he was ferociously, maybe too much so, for integration, advocate of integration. he said that it was hurting him, the fact that the colored people did not have the same rights as the white ones, and this is my opinion also, you see. i was very strongly opposed to segregation, and i am sometimes very violent on that subject, because it hurts me that i live in texas you know and i do not have colored friends. i cannot afford to have colored friends, you see. it annoys me. it hurts me. i am ashamed of myself. and i try to make some friends among the colored people and the situation is such that it is hard to keep their friendship in texas, you know. so i know what the situation is. on that point oswald and i agreed. and this is another reason why oswald and bouhe fought so bitterly, because bouhe is a segregationist. he is an old-guard segregationist that he learned from the texans you know that the colored man is just a flunky. and i had quite a few fights with him about that, with bouhe. and possibly his animosity, oswald's animosity to bouhe and vice versa were based on that, you see, although i am not so sure about it. but i assumed that that was one of the reasons. and i think that was a very sincere attitude on his behalf, very sincere. mr. jenner. i would like to return to this gun, this weapon incident, the walker incident. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. was there ever an occasion after this time, when you and mrs. de mohrenschildt came to see the oswalds, that as soon as you opened the door, you said, "lee, how is it possible that you missed?" mr. de mohrenschildt. never. i don't recall that incident. mr. jenner. you have now given me your full recollection of that entire rifle incident? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. weapon incident, and what you said to him? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes, yes, yes, yes; that is right. how could i have--my recollections are vague, of course, but how could i have said that when i didn't know that he had a gun you see. i was standing there and then jeanne told us or marina, you know, the incident just as i have described it, that here is a gun, you see. i remember very distinctly saying, "did you take the potshot at general walker?" the same meaning you know, "did you miss him," about the same meaning? i didn't want him to shoot walker. i don't go to that extent you see. mr. jenner. you didn't want him to shoot anybody? mr. de mohrenschildt. anybody. i didn't want him to shoot anybody. but if somebody has a gun with a telescopic lens you see, and knowing that he hates the man, it is a logical assumption you see. mr. jenner. you knew at that time that he had a definite bitterness for general walker? mr. de mohrenschildt. i definitely knew that, either from some conversations we had on general walker, you know--this was the period of general walker's, you know, big showoff, you know. mr. jenner. he was quite militant wasn't he. mr. de mohrenschildt. he was, yes. mr. jenner. mr. de mohrenschildt, up to that moment, is it your testimony that you never knew and had no inkling whatsoever, that the oswalds had a rifle or other weapon in their home? mr. de mohrenschildt. absolutely positive that personally i didn't know a damn thing about it, positive, neither did my wife. mr. jenner. and as far as you know your wife didn't either? mr. de mohrenschildt. no. mr. jenner. did you see the weapon? mr. de mohrenschildt. i did not see the weapon. mr. jenner. i won't show it to you then. was there any discussion about the weapon thereafter? mr. de mohrenschildt. no, no discussion. that ended the conversation, the remark about walker, ended the conversation. there was a silence after that, and we changed the subject and left very soon afterwards. mr. jenner. did you have a feeling that he was uncomfortable? mr. de mohrenschildt. very, very uncomfortable, but i still did not believe that he did it, you see. it was frankly a stupid joke on my part. as the time goes by it shows that sometimes it is not so stupid. but you know my wife will tell you probably that i have a very stupid, bad sense of humor, she says, you know. mr. jenner. some people say you have a sadistic sense of humor. mr. de mohrenschildt. possibly. she says so also, my wife usually says that i like to tease people. mr. jenner. and you do, don't you? mr. de mohrenschildt. she dislikes it. i like to, certainly, and i don't mind if people tease me. i never get mad you know. it is perfectly all right if somebody teases me. mr. jenner. are you a member of a group in dallas known as the bohemian club? mr. de mohrenschildt. oh, yes, yes. mr. jenner. tell us about the bohemian club. did you organize it? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; mr. ballen and i organized it together and the occasion arose one day when mr. ballen and i were driving back from a well, an oil well we were driving far away from dallas. it was a long drive and we were discussing our lives in dallas and a little bit exchange about the sort of boring people we have around in dallas you know, nothing but texans. and then by god, says ballen, "we should do something about it. we should organize--there are some interesting people in dallas. we should organize a group for free discussion. and also we should put--we all like to eat well. let's combine it with good eating." and that is how the idea originated. mr. jenner. and you called it what? mr. de mohrenschildt. we called it the bohemian club, a little bit based on the bohemian club in san francisco. and we invited--we decided to invite people who are sort of unusual and in different professions, and that no business should be discussed during the meetings, that the member whose turn it is to make a speech should also provide the dinner, and either cook it himself or his wife would cook it or he should invite all of us to a restaurant of his choice. this lasted i guess for a year or years you know. we had quite a few meetings, very interesting, controversial meetings, because the main point was that you had to express yourself freely on the subject which is very important to you. then followed a discussion of all the other members. mr. jenner. on the subject. mr. de mohrenschildt. on the subject. mr. jenner. was it intended that the discussions be provocative or presented in a provocative fashion? mr. de mohrenschildt. as much as possible, and we had some real lulus there, some very provocative discussions. mr. jenner. was there an occasion when you had this club at your home or restaurant that you supplied the meal? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; one day i think i made one particular speech that i made on the subject of vlacsov's army which are the white russians and refugees who decided to fight with the germans against soviet russia. they were helped by general vlacsov who was a soviet general, and then later on became commander, was made prisoner by the germans and then decided to fight the communists, because obviously he was dissatisfied with the stalinist regime, and it was quite a large group. i never met any people of that type, but mr. voshinin provided me the material on that subject, and i made this little speech and i think everybody was very satisfied with the speech except lev aronson who is a jewish friend, a jewish friend of mine who was in the german concentration camp and he obviously had met some of those vlacsov soldiers, and anyway he criticized me quite a lot on that speech. mr. jenner. did he criticize you during the course of the meeting? mr. de mohrenschildt. during the course of the meal? mr. jenner. yes. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes, yes. mr. jenner. did you accuse anybody of being a nazi? mr. de mohrenschildt. did he accuse? mr. jenner. did you? mr. de mohrenschildt. did i accuse anybody? mr. jenner. in the way of provoking the discussion? mr. de mohrenschildt. of provoking the discussion? i don't remember that. possibly i had, but i don't remember that. actually he accused me more or less of being pro-nazi by giving that speech you see. he accused me of being, which i am not you know, but that expresses my opinion of the difficulty that sometimes the refugees are in when their opinions, political opinions, differ with their own country you see. those are the people who are fighting their own country because they were deeply inside anti-communists, you see. i didn't say that i was all for them you see. i just described this as an interesting incident because i just read a book on that subject or something you know, and i thought that it was an interesting incident of the last war that occurred. mr. jenner. did you ever see oswald operate an automobile? mr. de mohrenschildt. no; i had the impression that he didn't know how to drive and i was quite surprised---- mr. jenner. what gave you the impression that he didn't know how to drive? mr. de mohrenschildt. i couldn't swear to that, but i think i asked him "do you know how to drive an automobile? why don't you buy yourself an automobile?" i remember saying. mr. jenner. where would he get the money? mr. de mohrenschildt. well, you know you can buy a car for $ , or $ , some old wreck, and somebody with any mechanical ability could fix it. mr. jenner. what was his response to that? mr. de mohrenschildt. i have the impression that he said that he didn't know how to drive, but i couldn't swear to that. and naturally marina was needling him all the time to buy an automobile. mr. jenner. oh, she was? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; she was. mr. jenner. you have a definite impression? mr. de mohrenschildt. a definite impression of that. she was needling him. mr. jenner. apart from an impression, as a matter of fact you were present and knew she was needling him to purchase an automobile? mr. de mohrenschildt. i could almost swear to that, but again it is so vague i could not recall the exact words, you see. mr. jenner. but you do have a definite impression of that? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes, i have a definite impression of that. i might have put it in her mind you know. either my wife or i might have put it in her mind because it is incomprehensible to live in texas without an automobile. it is not like new york. they were completely isolated where they were living, you see. mr. jenner. and you were suggesting it. mr. de mohrenschildt. i might have suggested it. mr. jenner. because of that. mr. de mohrenschildt. or my wife. mr. jenner. what impression, if you have any, do you have with respect to his sexual habits? did you ever have any thoughts? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. as to whether he was a homosexual? mr. de mohrenschildt. no. mr. jenner. he was not in your opinion? mr. de mohrenschildt. i don't think so, i think he was an asexual person, asexual, and as i told you before, marina was bitterly complaining about her lack of satisfaction. this is really the time that we decided just to drop them you see. one of the reasons you see we decided not to see them again, because we both found it revolting, such a discussion of marital habits in front of relative strangers as we were, see. mr. jenner. and this occurred more than once? mr. de mohrenschildt. you see this occurred probably in the first period when we knew oswald. you know there was a first period when we knew them, until about october. then we didn't see them any more, and i think it was caused by many factors you know. we just got tired of them. we didn't like them. we did not like this particular remark about sex life, and other things you know. we just were not interested in them, and then the fact that she returned back to oswald, see what i mean, after we had taken her away from him, that she went back to him that disgusted us. we told her, "now we helped you. we are not going to do anything more about you." and we didn't see them in october, november, december, see. mr. jenner. except for this party? mr. de mohrenschildt. except for the party, and then christmas came and we thought well, the oswalds all by themselves you know. it is christmas time, we should take them out. for that period they were completely out of my mind you see. then we decided to take them out, and i think it was in january after this party that we took them again to meet everett glover. mr. jenner. i will get to that in a moment. mr. de mohrenschildt. i think actually there were two parties that we took them to. one at ford's and the other at everett glover's. no, pardon me, i made a mistake. we took them also, both of them one afternoon, and i think it was still in the first period of us knowing them, to the house of admiral bruton who is a friend of ours, and a retired u.s. admiral who works in dallas and has; both he and his wife are good friends of ours. and they are very kind people. mrs. bruton loves the children. she is a grandmother, and we told her that here we have that miserable couple with a child, could we bring them to the pool day? and she said "fine, bring them along." and we brought them to the pool, and no sooner the admiral saw oswald you know, and heard a few words from him, he said "take this guy away from me." this bruton was quite a hero in the war you know, and he immediately sensed that oswald was a revolutionary character you see, and no good. he sensed that, being a military man you see. i think he asked him a few questions "is it true that you were in the marine corps?" and oswald made kind of a sour face about the marine corps. so it was very short and very unpleasant interview because the admiral left you know, and his wife, being a kind person, stayed there for a while you know, and then we took the oswalds back again. mr. jenner. you never did use the pool? mr. de mohrenschildt. they never used the pool because i don't think oswald liked swimming. and just recently i got a letter from mrs. bruton in paris saying "is that the same man that you brought once to my house?" she has been reading the story of oswald. mr. jenner. when you went over to pick up the oswalds to take them to that christmas party did you enter their home? mr. de mohrenschildt. it is just vague to me. i don't remember how we got them. whether i did or my wife did--i do not recall how it was done. mr. jenner. i was going to ask you whether you noticed if they had a christmas tree or any indication of celebration of christmas? mr. de mohrenschildt. i have some vague recollection of some kind of celebration but i do not recall. mr. jenner. did you ever have any discussion with him as to whether he did or didn't believe in christmas? mr. de mohrenschildt. i don't remember. i assumed that he did not. marina was naturally interested in christmas. mr. jenner. she was? mr. de mohrenschildt. she was. mr. jenner. did the oswalds, either together or separately, come to your home frequently or several times and spend the day with you? mr. de mohrenschildt. i was trying to pin down how many times we saw them in all, and it is very hard you know. i would say between and times, maybe more. it is very hard to say. usually they were together. mr. jenner. she come alone? mr. de mohrenschildt. sometimes she came alone; yes. i don't recall his coming all by himself. i don't recall any incident. mr. jenner. there was some testimony to the effect--i want you to pause before i ask you another question, exhaust your recollection on this. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. were there occasions when they came in the morning and stayed all day? mr. de mohrenschildt. marina might have stayed all day you see, or or hours you see. my wife will remember, will have a better recollection of that, because i was at that time busy on three projects, and really my mind was on something else, you see. mr. jenner. having exhausted your recollection, there is testimony to the effect, about marina, that "we used to come early in the morning, and leave at night. we would spend the entire day with them. we went by bus." mr. de mohrenschildt. by bus? my wife will remember that better. possibly i was not at home you see. i was running around doing business, my business you know. mr. jenner. you came to their home for short visits? mr. de mohrenschildt. i came to their home for short visits, and sometimes would find marina alone, maybe twice, something like that you see, would find marina alone, and ask her, "how are you getting along? goodbye." mr. jenner. did you ever visit them and bring some foodstuffs? mr. de mohrenschildt. i do not recall that. my wife will remember that better than i do. mr. jenner. does this refresh your recollection in any degree, testimony that "the de mohrenschildts visited us, they usually came for short visits. they brought their own favorite vegetables such as cucumbers. george likes cucumbers." mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; i like cucumbers, and i am sure that my wife will remember that, because it was her idea, not mine. she was in charge of food you know. if they did spend the whole day with us, it is possible it was at the very beginning when my wife took marina to the doctor, you know, and then brought her back again, something like that. i don't remember seeing them in the house all day long. mr. jenner. but they might have been there all day long when you weren't around. mr. de mohrenschildt. they might have been, might have been. my wife will remember that, you see. mr. jenner. were there occasions when they had meals at your house? mr. de mohrenschildt. oh, yes; i think so. i think so. i don't remember the exact occasion but i am sure that we fed them quite often, because they were hungry. mr. jenner. as a matter of fact you went out of your way to see that they were fed? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes, yes; i think so. my wife did, not i. mr. jenner. was there any discussion on your part with oswald with respect to his family, his mother, his brothers? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; this is very interesting. i remember distinctly that marina especially told me that they had lived with the brother, and that he told them to leave the house. now we assumed that it was---- mr. jenner. recapture your recollection a little more about this. mr. de mohrenschildt. it is something to that effect, you know, and it was a little bit surprising to me, and then after seeing her for a little while, i realized why they did, because she was incredibly lazy you see. she wouldn't help anybody. mr. jenner. who was incredibly lazy? mr. de mohrenschildt. marina, very lazy, wouldn't help anybody with anything. when she stayed for instance with the mellers, and the baby you see, mrs. meller told us that she wouldn't help her at all, you know, around the house. mr. jenner. yes. mr. de mohrenschildt. would sit there and smoke and do nothing. now i have a recollection, a vague recollection of lee telling me that he didn't get along with his mother. actually it was surprising how little he spoke about his family. it was just something completely that was not discussed you know. he didn't talk about it. but i have a vague recollection that he disliked his mother. he didn't get along with his mother, and marina disliked the mother. mr. jenner. marina disliked the mother also? mr. de mohrenschildt. marina disliked the mother also. mr. jenner. you have a definite recollection of that? mr. de mohrenschildt. i have a recollection of some kind, not in any exact words, but that is the impression i had. mr. jenner. was there any discussion or did you become aware that they had lived also with the mother as well as the brother? mr. de mohrenschildt. i do not recall that. mr. jenner. but you have a definite recollection that marina had met the mother and had a reaction to her? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; oh, that she met the mother, definitely. i assumed that you knew. mr. jenner. and that reaction was an unfavorable one? mr. de mohrenschildt. unfavorable reaction, and possibly my wife will remember more than i do. mr. jenner. did you get any reaction as to how oswald felt with respect to his brother? mr. de mohrenschildt. again a vague idea that he did not get along with his brother. mr. jenner. did you become aware that he had two brothers? mr. de mohrenschildt. i didn't even know he had two brothers. mr. jenner. was there any occasion when it came to your attention that there was any alarm on marina's part with respect to lee possibly inflicting some harm on vice president nixon, or former vice president nixon? mr. de mohrenschildt. no. mr. jenner. that doesn't ring a bell at all? mr. de mohrenschildt. it doesn't ring a bell at all. but what i wanted to underline, that was always amazing to me, that as far as i am concerned he was an admirer of president kennedy. mr. jenner. i was going to ask you about that. tell me the discussions you had in that connection. did you have some discussions with him? mr. de mohrenschildt. just occasional sentences, you know. i think once i mentioned to him that i met mrs. kennedy when she was a child you know, she was a very strong-willed child, very intelligent and very attractive child you see, and a very attractive family, and i thought that kennedy was doing a very good job with regard to the racial problem, you know. we never discussed anything else. and he also agreed with me, "yes, yes, yes; i think it is an excellent president, young, full of energy, full of good ideas." mr. jenner. did he ever indicate any resentment of mr. kennedy's wealth? mr. de mohrenschildt. that is definitely a point there, you know. he did not indicate, but he hated wealth, period, you see. lee oswald hated wealth, and i do not recall the exact words, but this is something that you could feel in him, you see. and since he was very poor, you know, i could see why he did, you see. i even would tell him sometimes, "that is ridiculous. wealth doesn't make happiness and you can be poor and be happy, you can be wealthy and be very unhappy; it doesn't matter." i met a lot of wealthy people in my life and found that quite a few of them are very unhappy and i have met quite a few poor people and they are very happy. so it is nothing to be jealous of. mr. jenner. did you ever discuss with him governor connally? mr. de mohrenschildt. never discussed it with him. mr. jenner. did he ever express any opinion with respect to governor connally? mr. de mohrenschildt. never had a word about it. you see, i was not familiar with the fact that he did have a dishonorable discharge. mr. jenner. that is another subject. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. you were not familiar with that at all? it was never discussed? mr. de mohrenschildt. it was only in the papers that i read after the assassination that i read in the papers that he had a dishonorable discharge. i assumed that he had an honorable discharge. i assumed that. mr. jenner. there was never any discussion in the russian colony on the subject that he had not had an honorable discharge? mr. de mohrenschildt. i do not recall that. i do not recall. but i was again probing in my mind whether i heard anything about this dishonorable discharge or not. mr. jenner. as you are sitting there, you are probing your mind? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes, my mind, thinking about it, now you know, and it is impossible to say because i read in the paper that he had a dishonorable discharge, after the assassination. mr. jenner. and you don't want to rationalize? mr. de mohrenschildt. i do not want to. mr. jenner. now let us turn to the party at the glovers. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. you were acquainted with mr. glover, were you? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. everett glover? mr. de mohrenschildt. everett glover. mr. jenner. who is everett glover? mr. de mohrenschildt. everett glover is a chemist at magnolia laboratories, standard oil of new york research laboratories. mr. jenner. now, had everett glover met the oswalds prior to this party at his home? mr. de mohrenschildt. he might have, i don't recall. he might have met them, either marina or both of them, for a short time. mr. jenner. have you exhausted your recollection on that subject? mr. de mohrenschildt. my wife may remember this more distinctly. mr. jenner. but have you exhausted your recollection? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; i don't recall. mr. jenner. does this serve to refresh your recollection? mr. glover has stated that he had met marina previously. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. at your home several times? mr. de mohrenschildt. it could be; yes. mr. jenner. it could be? mr. de mohrenschildt. it could be; yes. mr. jenner. and had been invited to your home several times because she was a russian-speaking person who was having marital difficulties with lee oswald? mr. de mohrenschildt. very possible, very possible. now i recall even this, since you mention this. i suggested that they might live with everett glover, this couple. mr. jenner. you made a suggestion? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. to whom? mr. de mohrenschildt. to glover. "you have an empty house. why don't you let them live with you and pay you so much per month?" and i think he declined that. mr. jenner. he did organize this party, however? mr. de mohrenschildt. who? everett? mr. jenner. yes. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. now he says it was on february , ---- mr. de mohrenschildt. . mr. jenner. ? mr. de mohrenschildt. that is about it. mr. jenner. does that refresh your recollection? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; i was placing it around january or february; at that time. mr. jenner. did you attend that party? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; as far as i remember, i did. mr. jenner. and jeanne as well? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. who else was there? mr. de mohrenschildt. at this party was a lot of friends of everett glover's whose names i do not recall. mr. jenner. volkmar schmidt? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes, yes; definitely. we called him messer schmidt. he is a german; very intelligent, young ph. d. in sociology who also works at the same laboratory as everett glover. mr. jenner. magnolia? mr. de mohrenschildt. magnolia laboratory. mr. jenner. and was living with glover at that time? mr. de mohrenschildt. was living with glover at the time, i think. mr. jenner. he was present? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. he is a bachelor? mr. de mohrenschildt. a bachelor. mr. jenner. and who else? mr. de mohrenschildt. i think we invited our neighbors, mrs. fox who lived right next door to us, to that party. mr. jenner. mrs. fox? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. what is her first name? mr. de mohrenschildt. mary fox. mr. jenner. what is her husband's name? mr. de mohrenschildt. she is a widow, i think, but it might have been a different party, but i have the impression that she was there. mr. jenner. anybody else? mr. de mohrenschildt. i think we invited our landlord also. mr. jenner. who is your landlord? mr. de mohrenschildt. i forgot his name. anyway he is my landlord. i forgot his name. my wife has a better memory of names. mr. jenner. anybody else that you recall? mr. de mohrenschildt. and ruth paine. mr. jenner. ruth paine? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. had you ever met ruth paine before? mr. de mohrenschildt. no; i think that was the first time we met ruth paine. mr. jenner. you have never been in any singing groups with her? mr. de mohrenschildt. no. mr. jenner. of which she was a member? mr. de mohrenschildt. no, no. mr. jenner. you did engage in some singing groups, did you not? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; but a different type of singing. i was engaged only in the church choir singing and i think she engaged in some sort of classical music singing. mr. jenner. madrigal? mr. de mohrenschildt. i beg your pardon? mr. jenner. madrigal? mr. de mohrenschildt. madrigal; that is right. there is a group in dallas to which everett glover belongs, you know, who i think spent some time singing in the madrigal. mr. jenner. have you exhausted your recollection now as to everybody who was present? mr. de mohrenschildt. there were quite a lot of people there, but if you mention the names i will say yes or no. mr. jenner. i want you to exhaust your recollection first. mr. de mohrenschildt. i am not so sure. i think my daughter was there. mr. jenner. alex? mr. de mohrenschildt. alex. i don't remember if gary was there. mr. jenner. that is her husband? mr. de mohrenschildt. her husband. you see, we showed our movie quite a few times. mr. jenner. did you show it that night? mr. de mohrenschildt. i think we showed the movie that night. mr. jenner. were mr. and mrs. norman fredricksen present? mr. de mohrenschildt. that name is familiar to me but i couldn't identify them. mr. jenner. were these people interested in meeting the oswalds? mr. de mohrenschildt. i think oswald mentioned to me--glover mentioned to me that mrs. paine was a student of the russian language, that she would like to meet somebody with whom she could practice. that is my recollection. mr. jenner. did the people engage in conversation with both of the oswalds? mr. de mohrenschildt. they were surrounded by the whole group. i do not recall what happened, because i was busy making the description of our trip while the movie was being shown. that movie, by the way, did not interest oswald at all. he was not interested. mr. jenner. the mexican trip movie? mr. de mohrenschildt. no; he was not interested. neither marina nor oswald were interested. mr. jenner. neither one? mr. de mohrenschildt. no. mr. jenner. why was that, do you think? mr. de mohrenschildt. they were not the outdoor-type people who would appreciate that sort of thing, not sufficiently outdoor-type people, not sufficiently sophisticated to appreciate that sort of a thing. at least that was my impression. mr. jenner. did any of these people inquire of oswald as to his life in russia? mr. de mohrenschildt. i think so. i think after the movie there was quite an animated discussion there asking many questions and many answering. he was there very happy you see, because he loved to be asked questions. he loved to be the center of attention, and he definitely was the center of attention that night. mr. jenner. that night. what about marina? mr. de mohrenschildt. well, you know that she couldn't speak english. mr. jenner. yes. there were people there who could speak russian, weren't there? mr. de mohrenschildt. i think she was talking mainly to mrs. paine, and i noticed immediately that there was another nice relationship developed there between mrs. paine and marina. mr. jenner. did you have some acquaintance with mrs. paine afterward; you and mrs. de mohrenschildt? mr. de mohrenschildt. never saw them again. never saw them again as far as i remember. that in my recollection was the only time i saw her. i remember her distinctly because she is a very interesting and attractive person. mr. jenner. do you remember a richard pierce and a miss betty macdonald attending that party? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; i remember now betty macdonald. i don't remember whether she was at the party but i think she was the librarian at the magnolia research laboratory. mr. pierce is another friend of everett's who also works at magnolia, who eventually became his roommate, or maybe he was already a roommate at the time. i think he became a roommate later on. mr. jenner. is there anything that occurred at that meeting that you think might be significant that you would like to tell us about? mr. de mohrenschildt. i really do not remember anything significant. mr. jenner. did you remain throughout the whole evening, or did you leave before the party was over? mr. de mohrenschildt. i do not recall. mr. jenner. i take it you did not bring the oswalds to that meeting? mr. de mohrenschildt. i do not recall either. i think they possibly have come by themselves. maybe somebody else brought them. maybe, everett brought them. mr. jenner. either that or everett? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; somebody else might have. mr. jenner. it was not your party? mr. de mohrenschildt. no. mr. jenner. you assisted him, however, in arranging it? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; exactly. mr. jenner. do you recall anything said at that meeting with respect to their eliciting from oswald his views with respect to russia, and in particular the former government in russia? mr. de mohrenschildt. i remember quite a vivid discussion going on, you know, because all those people are highly intelligent, and, very intellectual group of people interested in what goes on in the world, and as far as i know none of them has ever seen a russian, and it was just like a new specimen of humanity, you see, that appeared in front of them, both marina and oswald, an american but who had been to russia. but i don't remember any particular discussion or disagreement or agreement. i think probably oswald was talking most of the time. mr. jenner. oswald was pretty proud, was he, of his ability to speak russian? mr. de mohrenschildt. he was proud of it, yes; because it is quite an achievement for a man with a poor scholastic background to have learned the language. it is surprising to me. it was an extraordinary surprise for my wife and myself that he was able to learn to speak it so well for such a short time as he was supposed to have stayed in russia. as i understand it, he stayed there some years, i gather. mr. jenner. that is all. mr. de mohrenschildt. and it is amazing. mr. jenner. in speaking of that, as i recall, you noted he had a conversational command of the language. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. but that he did not speak a refined russian. mr. de mohrenschildt. no, no; not a refined russian. mr. jenner. he had trouble with his grammar? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes, yes. mr. jenner. were there occasions when you knew them in which marina would correct his grammar and there would be an altercation between them or something? mr. de mohrenschildt. oh, yes; there was bickering all the time. there was bickering all the time. i don't remember whether it was especially on the point of grammar, but there was bickering between them all the time. but as i said before, the bickering was mainly because marina smoked and he didn't approve of it, that she liked to drink and he did not approve of it. i think she liked to put the makeup on and he didn't let her use the makeup. my wife will explain a little bit more in detail what was going on between them, you see, because she was a confidante of marina's, you see. i was not. mr. jenner. would you elaborate, please? mr. de mohrenschildt. well, my wife being a woman was interested in a woman's problems, you see, marina's, in the baby and in her makeup, in the way she dressed and the way she behaved, you see. she tried to correct her manners, correct, teach her how to be a human being, you see, which marina did not know very well. she was doing her best to learn. she wanted to, but she really had a very poor background, you see. mr. jenner. you made a comment that you just said your wife had confidence in marina, but you didn't. what did you mean by that? mr. de mohrenschildt. confidence from what point of view? mr. jenner. i don't know. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; i mentioned that because i don't like a woman who bitches at her husband all the time, and she did, you know. she annoyed him. she bickered. she brought the worst out in him. and she told us after they would get a fight, you know, that he was fighting also. she would scratch him also. mr. jenner. she would scratch him? mr. de mohrenschildt. she would scratch him also. mr. jenner. do you recall the time? i will put the question this way in order to draw on your recollection, rather than mine. there was an occasion, was there not, that marina left lee by herself? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. without being taken? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; i have a recollection of that. mr. jenner. tell us about that. when did it occur? mr. de mohrenschildt. i don't remember when it occurred. mr. jenner. does october refresh your recollection? mr. de mohrenschildt. very possible, but that was the period when we were very busy with our cystic fibrosis campaign. i do recall that one day i was in fort worth and i decided to come to see mrs. hall, with whom marina was staying. mr. jenner. were you aware of the fact that marina was at mrs. hall's? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. were you aware of how she had gotten there? mr. de mohrenschildt. i do not recall how it happened, but i was aware, somebody told me that, that she was staying at mrs. hall's. mr. jenner. the halls were separated at that time, were they not? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; and mrs. hall had the boy friend who was a friend of mine. mr. jenner. what was his name? mr. de mohrenschildt. a long name, german name, but he was of polish extraction. he was in the plastic business. now, his name, doctor--he worked for some plastic company in fort worth. kleinlerer, alex kleinlerer. that is the name. well, i had a very hard time finding the house where mrs. hall lived. i think mr. clark told me. that is probably it. mr. jenner. max clark. mr. de mohrenschildt. max clark probably told me that marina is there. mr. jenner. is that trail lake drive? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; trail lake drive. that is the place. and i drove over and here was marina, mrs. hall and alex kleinlerer. i don't remember what we were talking about, what we discussed at that time. it was a friendly visit to say how are you. mr. jenner. what i was getting at, mr. de mohrenschildt, was that this was an occasion when marina had left her husband? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. and come to the halls? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. that is, it is an occasion distinct from the one in which you took marina? mr. de mohrenschildt. oh, yes. mr. jenner. away from her husband. and this occasion we are now talking about at the halls occurred subsequently to the time that you had taken her to the mellers? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. i think it was after our taking her away to the mellers. mr. jenner. when you arrived there, what did you discuss in respect to why marina was there? mr. de mohrenschildt. no; i think i was discussing, i was talking to alex kleinlerer and to mrs. hall. yes; something vaguely comes to my mind that mrs. hall was saying that marina should leave their place. mr. jenner. should leave the halls? mr. de mohrenschildt. should leave the halls. the husband is coming back or something like that, something to that effect. mr. jenner. her husband is returning? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; something to that effect. mr. jenner. and did marina leave? mr. de mohrenschildt. that i do not recall. mr. jenner. you don't recall that she then went somewhere else? mr. de mohrenschildt. i do not recall. if you could refresh my memory i may remember better. again, i want to underline that all this is history for me, you see. mr. jenner. i appreciate that, and i must avoid trying to put things in your mind also. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. which is what i am attempting to do. mr. de mohrenschildt. that is right. as i remember, take mrs. hall--yes; i remember what we were talking about. mrs. hall had had an accident, and she had either a broken leg or a broken arm, something like that, and she was in a cast. that is it. so we were talking about the accident most of the time, you see, what happened. mr. jenner. well, that is a fact. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; she had an accident. i remember now. mr. jenner. did you have any discussion or do you have any opinion with respect to marina's religious belief, whether she had any, any religious feeling? mr. de mohrenschildt. i had a vague impression--i don't remember because i do not discuss religion too often--that she had religious beliefs of some sort, you see. she was a greek orthodox and did have some sort of religious belief. mr. jenner. what about lee, on the other hand? mr. de mohrenschildt. lee, i think religion did not exist for him. mr. jenner. he didn't believe in god? mr. de mohrenschildt. god, i don't know, because i didn't ask him a straight forward question, but i know that he did not believe in any organized religion. that is for sure. but he never was militantly against religion as far as i remember. mr. jenner. but you have no recollection of any discussions or any impression on your part about marina going back to russia at any time? mr. de mohrenschildt. something vaguely goes on in my head. mr. jenner. oswald trying to get her to return to russia? mr. de mohrenschildt. something vaguely goes on in my mind, but i do not recall. very possible, you see, that something was mentioned like that. i didn't pay any attention, in other words. mr. jenner. did oswald express views with respect to individual liberty and freedom of the press? mr. de mohrenschildt. i don't think he understood the freedom of the press, and individual liberties. i think he was too stupid to understand the advantages we have of the free press and the free speech. not too stupid, i mean, but too uneducated to understand the great advantages we have in free press and free discussion and in individual freedoms. like many native-born americans, he did not appreciate the advantages you get in this country, you see. you have to be a foreigner to appreciate it a little bit more. many russians, all the russian refugees appreciate that, you see, but many who are born here don't appreciate it. not all of them. mr. jenner. what about marina and her politics? mr. de mohrenschildt. marina was definitely more appreciative of life in the united states. mr. jenner. was she inclined to discuss politics? mr. de mohrenschildt. not too much; no. that was lee's main point, you see, to discuss politics. mr. jenner. what was her attitude toward lee's views in that respect? mr. de mohrenschildt. she more or less considered him a crackpot, as far as i remember, you see. a few times she said, "oh, that crazy lunatic. again he is talking about politics." this is one of the reasons we liked her, because that was a very intelligent attitude, you see, but it was very annoying to lee. mr. jenner. that was another source of annoyance between them? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; there were so many sources of annoyance, as you know, that it was just an unhappy marriage. mr. jenner. you have stated at one time oswald gave you something to read that he had written. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; i don't remember at what particular time, but he gave me to read his typewritten memoirs of his stay in minsk. mr. jenner. was it in the form of a diary? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes, more or less the form of a diary, not day by day, but just impressions. and as far as i remember, i read through these typewritten pages, i don't remember how many of them there were, and made comments on it, you see. but i don't think they were fit for publication. mr. jenner. were they political in nature? mr. de mohrenschildt. no; not political in nature, but there was nothing particularly interesting to an average person to read. it was just a description of life in a factory in minsk. not terribly badly written, not particularly well. mr. jenner. not good, not bad? mr. de mohrenschildt. not good, not bad. nothing that i really remember too well. i don't remember too well what was written there. mr. jenner. i will show the witness pages through , commission document no. . would you glance through those pages and tell me if it has the material he showed you? mr. de mohrenschildt. no; i don't remember seeing that beginning. mr. jenner. let's get over to the area in minsk. mr. de mohrenschildt. no; that is not at all familiar to me. mr. jenner. the witness is now looking at page . mr. de mohrenschildt. starting here at the bottom of page it looks familiar to me. how many mistakes he makes here, it is terrible. it does not look familiar to me. i think it was something else that he showed me. i do not recall that. that i definitely do not remember. mr. jenner. what? mr. de mohrenschildt. i would have remembered that sentence, you know. mr. jenner. you are now on page : "i am having a light affair with nell korobka." mr. de mohrenschildt. i would have remembered something like that, you see. again another sentence i do not recall. mr. jenner. "my conquest of anna tachina, a girl from riga." mr. de mohrenschildt. do you want me to glance through that? it does not look like the same document. mr. jenner. if it is not the same document---- mr. de mohrenschildt. no; i don't think it is the same document. mr. jenner. now i will have the witness look at pages through . this is a composition entitled "the collective" and "minsk, russia," with a foreword, an autobiographical sketch of oswald. i will direct your attention to some of these headings, "description of radio factory," "quota conditions," "description of tv shop," "background of shops," "individual workers," "controls of collectives," "demonstrations in meetings," "factory makeup," and "peoples," "layout of city of minsk," "tourist permits and tourist passports," "collective farms and schools, vacations." mr. de mohrenschildt. no; i don't remember this document, but i think i remember something, "layout of city of minsk," because that would have attracted my attention. mr. jenner. all right, let's find that spot. mr. de mohrenschildt. that looks familiar to me. mr. jenner. first there is a heading, "about the author." i call your attention to a statement which says, "exotic journeys on his part to japan and the philippines and the scores of odd islands in the pacific." did he ever discuss that with you? mr. de mohrenschildt. no. mr. jenner. he was at subic bay in the philippines? mr. de mohrenschildt. no; i don't remember him mentioning that to me. mr. jenner. now the witness is looking at part , which is on page . mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; this looks slightly, vaguely familiar, starting from page . that looks vaguely familiar. i am not going to read all this because it looks very boring to me. i mean it is something that doesn't interest me. it looks vaguely familiar. mr. jenner. does it also refresh your recollection of discussions you had with him before his life in russia? mr. de mohrenschildt. that looks familiar to me. mr. jenner. this whole division? mr. de mohrenschildt. this whole division looks familiar to me. as i said before, i did not look carefully when i originally saw this document, and i think this is the same one, because it looks familiar to me. i just glanced through. i realized that it is not fit for publication. you can see it right away. who is interested to read about comrade this and comrade that, you see? but it is a factual, it seems like a factual report on his conditions of life of a worker. mr. jenner. it is horrible grammar. mr. de mohrenschildt. horrible grammar. mr. jenner. and horrible spelling. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. but it could be reworked by somebody? mr. de mohrenschildt. that is right. mr. jenner. let's get to the next division here. mr. de mohrenschildt. here is something that i remember we discussed. mr. jenner. you are now at page . mr. de mohrenschildt. i think here he talks about those meetings. mr. jenner. that he did not like? mr. de mohrenschildt. that he did not like. do i have to read that? frankly, it is very---- mr. jenner. no; you don't. we are trying to find out whether this is the paper he showed you. mr. de mohrenschildt. here is something. mr. jenner. i now direct your attention to page . mr. de mohrenschildt. this is something that is much more familiar to me because i was interested in the town itself. mr. jenner. and this is the paragraph beginning, "the reconstruction of minsk is on an interesting story reflecting the courage of its builders." mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; that was something that interested me because i lived in my childhood in this town and i remembered some of the buildings. i remember asking oswald about what happened to this street and that street, you see. but i forgot the names. i just described them. what happened to this street and that street? he gave me some sort of an answer that now it is full of big buildings, you see, and i remember it as being full of small provincial houses, you see. and again i cannot swear to the fact that that is the same paper i saw. mr. jenner. but this seems to you more familiar? mr. de mohrenschildt. more familiar maybe because i paid more attention to the city than i paid to something else. mr. jenner. this is quite a long diatribe. mr. de mohrenschildt. it couldn't be the same document because that wasn't as long as that. mr. jenner. it was not? mr. de mohrenschildt. no. mr. jenner. i now exhibit to the witness a series of five untitled compositions on political subjects appearing in the same exhibit i have already identified, the first of which is at page . mr. de mohrenschildt. this is definitely not familiar to me. mr. jenner. and runs through page . mr. de mohrenschildt. i am just glancing through but it doesn't look familiar to me. maybe i just didn't pay any attention. mr. jenner. the next commences on page and runs through to page . it is a short one. mr. de mohrenschildt. no; that doesn't look familiar to me. mr. jenner. the next commences at page and concludes at page . mr. de mohrenschildt. it does not look familiar to me. as i said before, i have the impression that the pages he showed me were only about the city of minsk and the tv factory there, but not about his life. mr. jenner. were they typewritten or in longhand? mr. de mohrenschildt. typewritten. mr. jenner. the balance is on pages through . would you glance through those, please? mr. de mohrenschildt. oh, that is definitely nothing that i have seen before, because it has the name of general walker in it. mr. jenner. and you had not seen it? mr. de mohrenschildt. no; i had not seen it. now, the publication, not the publication, the document i saw was, as far as i remember, not political, but a very simple account of his life in minsk, and in the tv factory. mr. jenner. i think we had better call mrs. de mohrenschildt and tell her---- mr. de mohrenschildt. that she is ready for action? mr. jenner. no; that we are going to run you well into the afternoon. i have got a couple more pages of notes here. maybe around : will be closer. if you think it would be better to release her for the afternoon or find out where she is going to be. (whereupon, at : p.m., the proceeding was recessed.) testimony of george s. de mohrenschildt resumed the proceeding was reconvened at p.m. mr. jenner. as i recall, yesterday you testified your recollection was that early in your acquaintance with the oswalds, you approached sam ballen to see if he could undertake or might be able to employ oswald. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. to refresh your recollection in that regard, mr. ballen says his recollection is that he first met lee in december or january at your home. mr. de mohrenschildt. it could be. mr. jenner. and he was aware that you had approached mr. ballen's wife and other people to assist the oswalds, and also to have them out socially. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. you did do that, did you? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes, i don't remember whether i asked the ballens to invite them, but i did ask some other people to invite them, because they were so lonesome. and maybe fortunately for them, they refused. i remember i asked a physicist to invite them in dallas, and they just refused. he said, "i don't know those people. i don't want to have anything to do with them." mr. jenner. his recollection is about days after he met them at your home, you called him and asked if he might be able to employ him, or might be helpful in his obtaining a job. does that stimulate your recollection that the events you mentioned yesterday occurred probably in december or january --that is, the event regarding your effort to induce mr. ballen? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes--it should be probably at that time, because--i had the impression that it was earlier than that--when he was moving from fort worth to dallas, at the very beginning. i still have the impression. because that is where i was interested, to help them, you see. i did not know that he lost his job with the other company. i didn't know that. all this is later, after we had already gone. so i have the impression that maybe he confused the time. it seems to me that i asked him at the very beginning when i met the oswalds, when he lost his first job in fort worth and was trying to move to dallas--that was the time. mr. jenner. he lost his job at leslie welding co. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. i don't know the name of that company, but it was some welding outfit. mr. jenner. sheetmetal work. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes, that is right. mr. jenner. do you recall the period when marina stayed at the fords, in november? mr. de mohrenschildt. when she stayed at the fords? mr. jenner. yes. mr. de mohrenschildt. that was the time when we took marina and the child away from lee and put her in the house of mellers, and then the mellers asked mrs. ford to take her. i think that was the time. and then, later on, the fords asked mrs. ray to take marina. she moved from one place to another--three times, as far as i remember, she changed domiciles. and finally returned to lee. mr. jenner. you remember this event you related yesterday, when you took marina from the home? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. as having occurred---- mr. de mohrenschildt. in september. i have the impression it was in september. but it is, again, only a recollection, because i remember that it was a very hot day--very sunny, hot day. so it could be in october. and also in october we started working on this campaign, cystic fibrosis campaign, and were very busy. but it might have been in october. mr. jenner. mrs. ford's recollection is that marina was at her home--she came there on november , and left on november . mr. de mohrenschildt. it could be that. mr. jenner. and this is while marina was separated temporarily from her husband? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. unless she had been twice at her home. i think she was only once at her home. there were three homes--once at mellers, the fords, and the third at the rays, one after another, in succession. mr. jenner. now, this is apparently part of that series of changes she made when she left, herself--that is, this was not an occasion when you took her? mr. de mohrenschildt. no; i think that is the occasion we took her--we took her to the mellers, and then she moved from them by herself--that we had no knowledge of. how she moved or who took her from one house to another, i do not know. mr. jenner. you have a recollection there were two periods--one period that you are talking about when you took her from the home, and then another period when she left the home, herself? mr. de mohrenschildt. that could be, very easily. but then it would fit very well in my schedule--that would have been the second time--because, at that time, we were not seeing the oswalds. we were busy on something else, jeanne was working both in the store and at the foundation, i was preparing my project, and we were very busy, and didn't see anybody, practically, and especially the oswalds. october, november; i don't think we saw them at all in october, november, december. mr. jenner. did i ask you about betty macdonald this morning, as to whether she was at that february party? mr. de mohrenschildt. oh, yes; i think that is the librarian. the name macdonald sounds familiar to me. is she pierce's fiance? that is how i remember her. mr. jenner. i am just trying to get these two events. marina recalls when they lived on elsbeth street she had a dispute with lee, and--about her russian friends, in which he said, "well, if you like your friends so much, then go ahead and live with them." and she said that left her no choice, so she got in a cab and went over to anna meller's house with the baby. mr. de mohrenschildt. oh, that is how she described it. mr. jenner. she was there a week. mr. de mohrenschildt. that was the second time? what month was it? mr. jenner. i don't know. mr. de mohrenschildt. well, we took her there. but maybe she went there for the second time, you see. mr. jenner. well, she may have forgotten you took her. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; maybe she forgot it. you know, we took all the furniture also. i could not forget that--because my car was loaded. you could practically feel the ground. i still have the same car in haiti today. we had a tremendous load in our car. it took us the whole day to load and unload and carry them. mr. jenner. now, she voiced the opinion that--she said lee liked you. mr. de mohrenschildt. i am sorry that he did, but, obviously he did. mr. jenner. she said because you were a strong person. she is expressing her opinion now, of course. but he only liked you among all this group. he disliked bouhe, he disliked anna meller. mr. de mohrenschildt. that i am surprised, because bouhe is very--a person that you can like or dislike immediately. as to mrs. meller, i am surprised, because she is very kind and a nice person. mr. jenner. well, this is lee oswald. that could possibly arise out of the fact that anna meller befriended her when she left the household. mr. de mohrenschildt. that is right. mr. jenner. i don't know what the reason was. but you have confirmed the fact that he didn't care for the people in the russian colony. mr. de mohrenschildt. he did not have any friends, you see. maybe he identified me not as a russian, because i have not much russian blood in me anyway. maybe he identified me as some sort of an internationalist, american. mr. jenner. maybe you are. mr. de mohrenschildt. i am trying to think of other friends that he had. i cannot recall, myself, a friend of his, actually. i could not say that. he could be my son in age, you see. he is just a kid for me, with whom i played around. sometimes i was curious to see what went on in his head. but i certainly would not call myself a friend of his. mr. jenner. well, that may well be. but marina, at least, expresses herself that way--that you "were the only one who remained our friend." mr. de mohrenschildt. she said we were the only ones---- mr. jenner. who remained their friends--the others sort of removed themselves. mr. de mohrenschildt. sure, we left, you know. we were no friends, nothing. we just were too busy to be with them--period. mr. jenner. i am not talking about you. i am talking about the other people now. as you related this morning, they began to withdraw. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; and we were too busy. we saw them--we withdrew also to an extent--you see what i mean. we saw a lot of them at the beginning, and then we stopped seeing them. then we saw them again for christmas and invited them to another party, and that is all. then we saw them the last time for easter. i am not defending myself for having seen them. but that is a fact. mr. jenner. well, i appreciate that. what was your impression as to whether this was a hospitable man? mr. de mohrenschildt. who, oswald? mr. jenner. oswald. was he a man who was not very hospitable? mr. de mohrenschildt. no; i would not say so. to us, he was always quite hospitable. mr. jenner. to you, i appreciate that. i am trying to find out---- mr. de mohrenschildt. about the others, i don't know, because i never saw anybody else there in the house. i don't know how he would receive the people. i think he responded by kindness with kindness. he was responsive to kindness. mr. jenner. was there an impression among the people in this--we have talked about, that they came to feel that he didn't care for them? mr. de mohrenschildt. oh, yes, yes; he didn't care for them because--well, let me put it this way. he didn't care for them because they didn't care for him, and vice versa. but you see most of the colony in dallas is more emotionally involved in russian affairs than we are, because they are closer to them. all of them have been relatively recently in soviet russia--while my wife has never been in soviet russia in her life, and i was or when i left it. so to me it doesn't mean very much. i am curious, but it doesn't mean anything--it is too far removed. mr. jenner. did he ever express any views to you or give you the impression that he thought these people who had left russia were fools for having left russia? mr. de mohrenschildt. no; i don't think so. i don't remember that. possibly he told somebody else. but not in my presence. mr. jenner. did he express any view to you or did you get the impression that these people in this colony or group, they only liked money, and everything was measured by money? mr. de mohrenschildt. well, naturally--he didn't tell that to me, but you can guess that that would be his opinion, because he was jealous of them. i tried to induce him a few times to get on to some money-making scheme. i said, "why don't you do something to make money?" but, obviously, it wasn't interesting to him. would you like me to say what i told you about this solidarist? mr. jenner. yes. mr. de mohrenschildt. you were interested--you asked me if i belonged to some political party, and i said no. this group of russian refugees called themselves solidarists. and mr. and mrs. voshinin in dallas belonged to that group and tried to make me join it. not being interested, i refused, but i read some of their publications. and it is a pro-american group of russian refugees who have an economic doctrine of their own. and they seem to have some people working in the soviet union for them, and all that sort of thing. it is a pretty well-known political party that--their headquarters is in germany. that is about all i know about them. mr. jenner. but that group didn't interest you? mr. de mohrenschildt. no, no; nor any other group. mr. jenner. i notice in the papers at my disposal some participation on your part in a foreign council discussion group in dallas. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; i belonged to that group--i don't remember during what period--and came quite often to the meetings. mr. jenner. what is the name of it? mr. de mohrenschildt. the dallas council of world affairs. i met quite a few people at the meetings. but they were open, public meetings, where international affairs were discussed. i remember several of the dallas real conservatives called that dallas council very leftist. but i never noticed anything in particular. mr. jenner. were there people of substance that participated in that group? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; very much so. mr. marcus was the president of it. mr. mcgee was the president of it. mr. mallon was president of that, and actually organized this group. mr. mallon is chairman of the board of dresser industries. but they invited some people to dallas who are possibly socialists--i don't remember seeing anyone, but i guess they might have invited them. mr. jenner. did you on any occasion to express a view or say to anybody in dallas among your friends that oswald was an idealistic marxist? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; i might have said that. mr. jenner. what did you mean by that? mr. de mohrenschildt. that he had read and created some sort of a theory, a marxist theory, for himself. in other words, he created a doctrine for himself, a marxist doctrine. mr. jenner. is that what you meant by use of the word "idealist"? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; that it was an idea in his head that he had--not in a very flattering way i meant that. that he was building up a doctrine in his head. mr. jenner. did you ever say anything to anybody on the subject that oswald was opposed to the united states policy on castro in cuba? mr. de mohrenschildt. that i think he mentioned to me a couple of times. mr. jenner. what did he say? mr. de mohrenschildt. i do not remember the exact wording, but he said that he had admiration for castro for opposing such a big power as the united states. mr. jenner. did the voshinins ever ask you not to bring the oswalds around to their house? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. they refused to see and to meet the oswalds, either one of them. and i was quite surprised, frankly, why they didn't, because we all did and at first helped them--and they usually were very cooperative in helping the other people. in this particular case, they completely refused and looked sort of mysterious--why they didn't want to meet them. i never asked any questions. but that is their privilege, not to see them. mr. jenner. do you remember the days you were in abilene? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes, sir. mr. jenner. do you recall having discussed politics there, in which you indicated, whether in provocation or otherwise, some admiration for the soviet system of government? mr. de mohrenschildt. no; i don't remember saying anything like that. it might have been misinterpreted. but i believe in peaceful coexistence. i think we can all live together without blowing each other to hell--and many other people believe that we couldn't do that. probably the person with whom i was discussing it believed in immediate atomic retaliation. so, naturally, i told him what the hell. mr. jenner. do you recall having said that if this country is ever invaded by russia, you would have a very good chance of coming into a top position with the russians if they invaded the united states? mr. de mohrenschildt. i never said that. that is a purely texas invention. it must have been a real enemy of mine who said that. mr. jenner. you are intellectually opposed to the communist system? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; i am. i am not interested in it--period. mr. jenner. you wrote--i don't know whether it was after your or months in mexico, when you were enamoured of lilia larin, or whether it was on this previous occasion--when you were at the university of texas, had you written or were you writing a manuscript entitled "experiences of a young man in mexico"? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes, yes; but that is more or less a romantic dissertation, a romantic book based on some of my experiences there. mr. jenner. did you relate some of your romantic experiences? mr. de mohrenschildt. well, is it absolutely necessary? i don't recall even what i had written there. mr. jenner. i just wanted the general nature of it. mr. de mohrenschildt. i don't recall what it is. it is probably based on the travel in mexico with some girls--that is about all. that is what i would write at that time and that age. mr. jenner. you were interested in girls? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes, at that time. mr. jenner. did you ever have any people refer to you as the mad russian? mr. de mohrenschildt. that is an unfortunate term they call me quite often. mr. jenner. you mentioned somebody from brazil that had the sobriquet of king of bananas. was that the king of orchids rather than the king of bananas? mr. de mohrenschildt. well, maybe. but we called him the king of bananas. at least i called him that. i remember his name now--i mentioned it to you. dr. decio de paulo machado. i still--i think he is still in existence, because i asked about him recently. mr. jenner. if i said you were an extrovert, would that agree with your own judgment of yourself? mr. de mohrenschildt. well, i don't know if it is for others to call me. i would rather be an extrovert than an introvert. mr. jenner. well, for example, i regard myself as an extrovert. mr. de mohrenschildt. then i am happy to be an extrovert. i don't like to be accused of being too much of an extrovert, because i think if you pass the limit it is too much. mr. jenner. of course. any extreme is bad. i made a reference yesterday to professor zitkoff, in houston. i thought that might stimulate your recollection. did you make regular trips to houston? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; quite often. mr. jenner. were they substantially regular--once a month? mr. de mohrenschildt. no, no. without regularity, but quite often--mainly to see my clients there. mr. jenner. and your clients were who? mr. de mohrenschildt. in the oil business--i mainly used to come to see my friend john jacobs, vice president of texas eastern, and the social acquaintances that i had there--andy todd, an architect there, a professor at rice institute. and maybe somebody else--i don't recall the name. mr. jenner. but these trips to houston were strictly business? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. maybe i was trying at the time to push forward my project in haiti, you see, whereby i was trying to raise some money for the development of small industries in haiti. and on that occasion i saw quite a few important people. but purely for that purpose--purely for business. mr. jenner. all right. is your daughter, alexandra, a painter or an artist? mr. de mohrenschildt. no; my wife's daughter is a painter. mr. jenner. christiana? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. was there a time when both christiana and your daughter were living in dallas with you? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes, indeed. mr. jenner. in your venture with the international cooperation--as an agent of the international cooperation administration, in addition to poland, as i understand it, you visited france? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. switzerland? mr. de mohrenschildt. no. sweden and denmark. mr. jenner. france, sweden and denmark? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. had you in mind, or did you hope during that period, that you would also visit switzerland, england, italy, and west germany? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; but i didn't see those countries--i didn't have time to see them. instead of that, i stayed much longer in sweden, visiting some distant relatives there. mr. jenner. did you have any political discussions with any so-called true communists when you were in yugoslavia? mr. de mohrenschildt. political discussions? mr. jenner. arguments? mr. de mohrenschildt. arguments; yes. discussions, occasionally. the real argument i had--i think maybe i mentioned it yesterday--was with the head of the communist party in slovenia, who attacked me very strongly for being an american and for the fact that we had this arkansas case, with governor faubus. he was very obnoxious, and i told him that he reminded me of an ultraconservative in the united states--they were both of the same type, very illogical and very biased in their opinions. mr. jenner. biased and rigid? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; but i think in my stay in yugoslavia, and without taking too much pride in it, i made more friends for the united states than anybody else, because they could--i could explain to them the opportunities given to foreign born in the united states, and how joyful the life is in the states. for instance, i used to explain to them how an independent can drill an oil well with no money. to them it was beyond comprehension. to them it was a miracle that a man like me was able to promote enough money to drill an oil well. for them, it needed endless bureaucracy and enormous amount of papers and all that, and finally the well was drilled, and at an enormous price--when it could have been done very cheaply by purely organizing a small syndicate. and since i had small production of my own, i explained to them how i did that. and it was a fascinating story for them. so i think i did a good job and made a lot of friends, who used to write to me from there. mr. jenner. did you make a trip to europe in ? at that time, did you plan to leave early in march, march , and visit france, yugoslavia, italy, england, and belgium, for a period of weeks, on geological visits? mr. de mohrenschildt. there might have been some projects to do that, and it did not materialize. mr. jenner. maybe this will stimulate you. you, at that time, were at the statler hilton hotel in washington, d.c.? mr. de mohrenschildt. in ? mr. jenner. march , as a matter of fact. do you remember your passport being renewed on march ? mr. de mohrenschildt. did i go to europe or not? i don't remember. maybe i went to ghana at that time, in instead of going to belgium--i went on this consulting job to ghana. i don't recall. my wife will recall all that precisely, because she remembers the dates. i did go to europe in , because i remember i went to see my little boy in philadelphia at that time before going to europe. i was planning to. but my wife will remember all that. mr. jenner. so we can identify you as far as these papers are concerned, is this a fair description of you? that you are a white male, ' " tall, brown hair--dark brown hair, blue eyes--do you have a scar on your face? mr. de mohrenschildt. this scar is an old scar on the right-hand side, i think you can see. mr. jenner. right-hand cheek? mr. de mohrenschildt. on the cheek--it comes from a dog bite in my childhood. and this one is a new one--i got it in yugoslavia. mr. jenner. that is about the center of your forehead, up top, near your hairline? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. you suffered that in yugoslavia? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; i fell down on a rock with my head--had a few stitches taken. mr. jenner. and your---- mr. de mohrenschildt. by the way, i may say--my wife reminded me of it today--regarding the fact that i was taking sketches of so-called coast guard in texas, in or --of course, which i was not doing, because i was sketching the beach. the same thing happened to me in yugoslavia, except that this time they were the communists who thought i was making sketches of their fortifications. actually, i was also making drawings of the seashore. and this time they shot at us. mr. jenner. shot? mr. de mohrenschildt. shot. and they told me to get away--we were in a little boat. and they kept on shooting at me. and the bullets were hitting the water right around us--until we were away out into the sea. so i made a complaint to the u.s. embassy in belgrade, and some kind of an investigation was made. but this is an interesting correlation--that i am accused both by the yugoslavs and here, also, making sketches. i should abandon making sketches in the future. no more painting. mr. jenner. you have a ruddy complexion, but also you have a dark skin. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. is that a pigmentation, or from being out in the sun? mr. de mohrenschildt. no; i spend a lot of time in the sun. mr. jenner. your brother dimitri is a naturalized american citizen, is he not? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; much earlier than myself, because i think he came to this country in the early twenties. mr. jenner. the records show he was naturalized november , , in the u.s. district court at new haven, which is where yale university is located. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. he went to school at that time, to yale. mr. jenner. do those facts square with your recollection? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; approximately the right period. i remember he went to yale with rudy vallee--they were roommates. mr. jenner. you mentioned that your brother came over to europe and was in belgium while you were still there, just before you came back to this country. mr. de mohrenschildt. no, no; before i came back for the first time to this country. mr. jenner. that is correct. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. because it is my brother who helped me to arrange my passport and my entrance. he didn't help me financially, but arranged my permit. mr. jenner. to refresh your recollection, the passport records indicate that your brother applied for a passport for a visit in , to visit poland and france for months, and for the purpose of visiting his family, and collecting material for magazine articles. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. does that square with your recollection? mr. de mohrenschildt. that is about the right time when i first saw him after many, many years--we took a trip together to see our father in poland. mr. jenner. now, at that time, he had already completed his work at yale, had he not? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. he obtained his degree at yale in ? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. i don't know what year he completed. mr. jenner. did he take some additional---- mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. he took a ph. d. at columbia. but i don't know what year he received his ph. d. mr. jenner. well, i would suggest to you it was . mr. de mohrenschildt. ph. d. at columbia? i don't know the year exactly. mr. jenner. your brother travels relatively frequently, does he not? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; he travels whenever he had--whenever he can get away from teaching. mr. jenner. and he is a ph. d. and a professor at dartmouth college? mr. de mohrenschildt. he is a full professor at dartmouth college. mr. jenner. hanover, n.h.? mr. de mohrenschildt. that is right. he also is editor of the russian review, a magazine. mr. jenner. didn't he found that? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; he founded that magazine. mr. jenner. and what does he teach at dartmouth? mr. de mohrenschildt. i think he is a professor of russian culture, russian civilization, history. mr. jenner. do you recall--is this a description of him: he is a white male, foot inches tall, gray hair, brown eyes? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; very strong brown eyes, very dark brown eyes. mr. jenner. unlike yours, that are blue? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. he is browneyed. mr. jenner. did you see your brother when he visited europe in ? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; an amazing thing happened. you know, he didn't know that we were in europe. mr. jenner. neither knew that the other was? mr. de mohrenschildt. neither knew. and we bumped into each other in the most crowded street in paris. it is an amazing coincidence. mr. jenner. does your brother have a mustache? mr. de mohrenschildt. he used to. i don't think he has now. he may have grown it lately. mr. jenner. your daughter alexandra has another given name, hasn't she--romeyn? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. that is a family name of the piersons. mr. jenner. she was born april --december , . we brought that out yesterday. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. christmas day. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. did you ever know your wife phyllis' parents, simone fleischer--simone fleischer washington and jack stecker? mr. de mohrenschildt. no; i didn't know her real father. but i met her stepfather--walter washington stecker. mr. jenner. she was the daughter of simone fleischer, and was adopted by walter washington? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. did you have any contact with the dominican embassy in ? mr. de mohrenschildt. in , dominican embassy? mr. jenner. the month of april. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. i think i was invited to--dominican embassy. yes. mr. jenner. here in washington? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. i was trying to work up some kind of concession, i think. i was working on some kind of oil deal, and tried to contact the dominican ambassador--purely for business reasons--some kind of an oil project which had to do with the dominican republic. mr. jenner. all right. have you been in the dominican republic in the last--let's say the last months? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; i was there several times. no. , in march , on my way to haiti, to sign a contract with the haitian government, but spent only one night at the hotel there, between planes. it was necessary to stop there, because there was no right connection. pan american arranged so that the passengers to haiti would stop in the dominican republic for the night, and then leave the next morning. mr. jenner. is that the first time you were ever in the dominican republic? mr. de mohrenschildt. that is the first time i have ever been there. mr. jenner. when next were you there? mr. de mohrenschildt. the next time we were with--let's see--yes; we were--my wife and i when we were coming to haiti, exactly on the same--in the same--the same occasion, to spend the night. mr. jenner. just spent overnight? mr. de mohrenschildt. overnight, and take the plane the next morning, on our way to haiti in june--i think the first or second of june in . and then just recently, about a week ago, when i went to check on some mining possibilities, and get some information from the bureau of mines in the dominican republic. and again i went to san juan, and then picked up my wife, and then brought her back into the dominican republic, finished getting the information, and returned to haiti. and then again on the way to the united states now, just stopping there. mr. jenner. on this present trip? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; just stopping for minutes. mr. jenner. those have been your sole contacts in the dominican republic? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; to the best of my memory--yes; i remember now why i tried to contact the dominican embassy in . somebody told me--i don't remember who--that they needed a consulting geologist in the dominican republic, and i tried to contact the ambassador, and never was able to see him. mr. jenner. do you recall commenting, along with mrs. de mohrenschildt, that you know of no connection that did or could have existed between lee oswald and any organization or government because you thought nobody could stand him, and that you questioned his mental stability? mr. de mohrenschildt. that is right. i remember making that statement. i think it was in port au prince that i made that statement. naturally anybody--who would--in our opinion, if he killed the president of the united states, he must have been mentally unstable. i could not find any other explanation. or somebody might have paid him for it. but this is another speculation that came to me later on. but, again, it is purely speculation on our part. mr. jenner. well, you had no--now that you have made that statement, i have to pursue it. mr. de mohrenschildt. by reading the papers, you know--we had no other information. by reading the papers and putting two and two together we started wondering, maybe there is something behind it, you see--especially i remember reading in one of the papers that---- mr. jenner. which papers are these--foreign language papers? mr. de mohrenschildt. no; american papers. we haven't read any foreign language papers. we get the miami herald, new york times, we get haitian papers, french language papers, of course. and i think in one of those papers it was said that lee oswald mentioned to his wife before the assassination that he was going to get some money. mr. jenner. so when you read that article---- mr. de mohrenschildt. when i read that article, then the idea started coming--arising in my imagination. mr. jenner. assuming the article was correct, that oswald had said to marina that he was going to get some money from some source? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; that is right. mr. jenner. but you knew of no such thing? mr. de mohrenschildt. no. mr. jenner. and you had no hint of it while you knew the oswalds? mr. de mohrenschildt. no; when we knew the oswalds, they were always in dismal poverty. mr. jenner. when you visited dallas at the end of may , before you went to haiti, did you see the oswalds then? mr. de mohrenschildt. no; i don't think so. my wife will tell you exactly. i don't think we had time to see anybody. we were just packing. as i recall it, i did receive a card, a postcard, from oswald--i don't remember when--before we left the united states, saying, "we are in new orleans," and giving the address. and i lost that card. mr. jenner. did you write a letter to mrs. hugh d. auchincloss in december of ? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; i don't remember the date, but i did write a letter to her. mr. jenner. from where? mr. de mohrenschildt. from haiti. mr. jenner. you expressed your sympathy to her with respect to the death of her son-in-law, john fitzgerald kennedy? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. do you recall making this statement in the letter: "since we lived in dallas permanently last year and before, we had the misfortune to have met oswald, and especially his wife marina, sometime last fall." mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. what do you mean by the misfortune to have met oswald and especially his wife marina? mr. de mohrenschildt. well, now, since all this happened, it causes--it is not pleasant to have known the possible assassin of the president of the united states. and since he is dead, it doesn't matter. but we still know marina. we had the misfortune of knowing her--it caused us no end of difficulty, from every point of view. mr. jenner. that is what you meant by misfortune? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; and misfortune--also now, when you look the situation over, it was just a misfortune that we helped them, that is all. we shouldn't have done it. we should have known better. and, actually,---- mr. jenner. why should you have known better, mr. de mohrenschildt? what was wrong with what you did? mr. de mohrenschildt. nothing wrong. but it is wrong that we were charitable to a person who turned out to be an assassin, maybe. mr. jenner. but you wouldn't have been charitable if you had any notion he might have been. so what you did was a spontaneous, normal thing of an outgoing person who wanted to help somebody. is that a fair statement? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; it is correct. but still i regret that i have known him. i shouldn't have been so extroverted. mr. jenner. do you recall saying in your letter, "both my wife and i tried to help poor marina, who could not speak any english, was mistreated by her husband. she and the baby were malnourished and sickly." mr. de mohrenschildt. that is correct. mr. jenner. that is all correct? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. and you told me all about that in some detail. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. you also said, if you will recall--"some time last fall we heard that oswald had beaten his wife cruelly, so we drove to their miserable place and forcibly took marina and the child away from the character." mr. de mohrenschildt. that is right. mr. jenner. and you have told me about that? mr. de mohrenschildt. that is right. mr. jenner. "then he threatened me and my wife, but i did not take him seriously." mr. de mohrenschildt. that is exactly right. mr. jenner. "marina stayed with a family of some childless russian refugees for awhile, keeping her baby, but finally decided to return to her husband." you have told me about that course of events. mr. de mohrenschildt. that is right. mr. jenner. and that is what you had in mind? mr. de mohrenschildt. that is exactly right. mr. jenner. then you comment, "it is really a shame that such crimes occur in our times and in our country, but there is so much jealousy for success, and the late president was successful in so many domains, and there is so much desire for publicity on the part of all shady characters, that assassinations are bound to occur. better precautions should have been taken." now, let me ask you about the first two sentences. mr. de mohrenschildt. in my opinion, if lee oswald did kill the president, this might be the reason for it, that he was insanely jealous of an extraordinarily successful man, who was young, attractive, had a beautiful wife, had all the money in the world, and was a world figure. and poor oswald was just the opposite. he had nothing. he had a bitchy wife, had no money, was a miserable failure in everything he did. mr. jenner. well, do you have a view, perhaps, that this might be a way of this man--of what he thought of raising himself up by his own bootstraps? mr. de mohrenschildt. exactly. it made him a hero in his own mind--it made him a hero in his own mind. he did not realize possibly that he was doing it at the expense to the whole nation. he might have had a mental blackout. mr. jenner. then you make the comment "better precautions should have been taken." mr. de mohrenschildt. that is my very strong opinion, that better precautions should he taken by whatever authorities were in dallas at the time to protect the president. now, i do not consider myself an exceedingly--a genius. but the very first thought after we heard that some character was mixed up in the assassination of the president, when we were listening to the radio in the house of an employee of the american embassy in port au prince, and he mentioned that the name of the presumable assassin is something lee, lee, lee--and i said, "could it be lee oswald?" and he said, "i guess that is the name." mr. jenner. that occurred to you? mr. de mohrenschildt. that occurred to me. mr. jenner. as soon as you heard the name lee? mr. de mohrenschildt. as soon as i heard the name lee. now, why it occurred to me--because he was a crazy lunatic. mr. jenner. did you think about the rifle you had seen? mr. de mohrenschildt. immediately something occurred in my mind--the rifle. actually, my wife and i were driving from a reception at the syrian embassy, where we heard the story of the assassination. we were driving to the house of this friend of ours who works at the embassy and wondering who could it be. and as soon as we heard that name, some association started working in our minds--and the fact that there was a gun there. but my opinion--and again--was influenced naturally by what you read and hear in the papers. we were out of contact with people in dallas, and out of contact with events. the only thing we could judge is what we read in the papers. sometimes you read something like he was going to get some money, and naturally you start thinking that possibly somebody bought him. now, we heard, also, that he was getting some regular checks from somewhere. mr. jenner. where did you hear that? mr. de mohrenschildt. that i read in the papers some place--he was getting regular checks. mr. jenner. that didn't score with your recollection, did it? mr. de mohrenschildt. no; i just read that in the papers some place. then you read this and that, i am not a detective. it is not up to me to make any conclusions. mr. jenner. this letter was written, i take it--it is dated december , . at the time you wrote it you had some of these newspaper articles in mind that were affecting your opinion, were they? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; but it contains all the facts---- mr. jenner. excuse me. have you looked at the original of that letter? mr. de mohrenschildt. well, it looks to me that this is the original. mr. jenner. that is your signature on the letter? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. you will note it is dated december , . mr. de mohrenschildt. december , . mr. jenner. would you look at the envelope that is attached to the letter. is that envelope addressed in your handwriting, or does it have any of your handwriting on it? mr. de mohrenschildt. no; it is printed. mr. jenner. typed? mr. de mohrenschildt. typed, yes. mr. jenner. and is that the envelope in which you dispatched that letter? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; it looks like that envelope. mr. jenner. what is the date of the stamp cancellation? mr. de mohrenschildt. december , . mr. jenner. where? mr. de mohrenschildt. port-au-prince, haiti. it was sent from haiti, this letter. mr. jenner. yes; that is your letter, and you dispatched it? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. now, you say in that letter, after expressing your sympathies to mrs. auchincloss, and your very kind comments about mrs. kennedy, "i do hope that marina and her children (i understand she has two now) will not suffer too badly throughout their lives, and that the stigma will not affect the innocent children. somehow, i still have a lingering doubt, notwithstanding all the evidence, of oswald's guilt." mr. de mohrenschildt. exactly. mr. jenner. now, please explain that remark in that letter. mr. de mohrenschildt. unless the man is guilty, i will not be his judge--unless he is proven to be guilty by the court, i will not be his judge, and there will be always a doubt in my mind, and throughout my testimony i explained sufficiently why i have those doubts. and mainly because he did not have any permanent animosity for president kennedy. that is why i have the doubts. mr. jenner. and that expression in this letter is based on all the things you have told me about in this long examination? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. a natural, i would assume, view on the part of any humanitarian person--that you just cannot imagine anybody murdering anybody else? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. and he in turn had been murdered. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. and his trial would never take place? mr. de mohrenschildt. that is right. mr. jenner. and on the basis of what little you knew, you had lingering doubts? mr. de mohrenschildt. exactly. mr. jenner. not because you felt that anybody else might have been involved? mr. de mohrenschildt. no, no. mr. jenner. and you had no notion of anybody else, and no information of anybody else being involved? mr. de mohrenschildt. no information. mr. jenner. i want to give you an opportunity to explain that fully. mr. de mohrenschildt. no; i have no information whatsoever, except what you hear now living in port-au-prince from the foreigners who read foreign papers. and, of course, they are all of the opinion that oswald did not kill the president, that there was a plot, that there was--that somebody else was standing on the bridge, there was a car there on the bridge from where they were shooting, that there were four shots--and all those things are discussed all day long in haiti right now, in the colony of foreigners--embassy people and businessmen who live in haiti, most of them europeans, of course. they discuss it all day long. mr. jenner. and they are confining their judgment to what they read in the papers they receive from their homeland? mr. de mohrenschildt. purely; yes--purely. as you know, there are sensational articles being published right now in europe on that subject. mr. jenner. mr. de mohrenschildt, you know of no supposed facts that you have read in these foreign language newspapers, do you? mr. de mohrenschildt. do i know what? mr. jenner. you don't know if there is any merit one way or another? mr. de mohrenschildt. no; i don't know of any merit one way or the other. mr. jenner. and this remark of yours in the letter to mrs. auchincloss was not intended to imply that? mr. de mohrenschildt. no, no; it was not. it was purely based on whatever was expressed in my testimony. and i think it will be fair to say that i will have that lingering doubt for the rest of my life. mr. jenner. you may have an opportunity to read the commission report, which i assume you will. mr. de mohrenschildt. i wish you the best of luck. mr. jenner. you wrote mrs. auchincloss again, did you not, in february , ? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. i hand you the envelope and letter. do you identify those as being the letter you sent to her and the envelope in which the letter was enclosed? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; it is exactly the letter i have written. mr. jenner. this letter leads me then into your haiti venture. tell us about it. how did that arise, when did you first think about it? mr. de mohrenschildt. i started doing geological work in haiti in , i think, the first time, where i worked for some haitian people connected with the sinclair interests in haiti. i worked up a geological prospect for oil and gas drilling in the northern part of haiti, and we were able to sell the projects to a company in tulsa, and finally the deal fell through because of the cuban situation. in other words, the company did not want to drill in haiti because of the expropriations going on in the caribbean area. and the next time then i was in haiti, as i explained before, after our trip---- mr. jenner. that is the trip you made down there, mexico and the central american countries? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes--in --and started preparing this project from then on. finally the project came to fruition in march , and we left for haiti--at the end of may . mr. jenner. you made a trip to new york city before you went to haiti, did you not? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. the first part of may ? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. about weeks? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; new york, philadelphia, washington. mr. jenner. visited your daughter? mr. de mohrenschildt. visited my daughter. and also was in washington preparing for the eventuality of this project, checking with the people, bureau of mines, and so forth. mr. jenner. is there a gentleman by the name of tardieu whom you were attempting to interest? mr. de mohrenschildt. no, no; he is actually interested, and he is a frenchman living in haiti, who was instrumental to an extent in getting this contract. mr. jenner. i hand you a document which we will mark "de mohrenschildt exhibit no. ." (the document referred to was marked "de mohrenschildt exhibit no. " for identification.) mr. jenner. it appears to be a piece of promotional literature issued in connection with the haiti venture. am i correct about that? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes, sir. mr. jenner. did you send that to mr. raigorodsky? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. now, the upper portion is in french. would you favor me by reading first that which is on the left, and then that which is on the right? mr. de mohrenschildt. that is a very long article. a magnificent success for the commercial bank of haiti. the result of a trip---- mr. jenner. that is a headline? mr. de mohrenschildt. headline. mr. jenner. all right. mr. de mohrenschildt. shall i make a short resume of that? mr. jenner. i would prefer--can you translate that literally? mr. de mohrenschildt. "the recent trip to the united states of america by mr. clemard joseph charles, the active president and manager general of the bank, commercial bank of haiti, has constituted a magnificent success for this banking establishment which is prospering right now. "in reality, during one of the most amicable ceremonies, the assistant mayor of new york, mr. james o'brien, has given to mr. clemard joseph charles the keys of the city of new york in the name of mayor wagner, who was at that time in europe. "the dinners and lunches have been offered in honor of mr. clemard charles, namely, by the american express, patent resources, inc., and the hanover trust co. a short contact with mr. clemard joseph charles has permitted us to obtain certain information for the readers. the active president and director general of the commercial bank of haiti has been able to conclude an important contract with one of the largest financial companies in new york which does business in the millions of dollars. this enterprise guaranteed by the import-export bank, the chase manhattan bank, and the bank of america, will make possible to the haitian importers of american merchandise through the commercial bank of haiti the credits of unlimited amounts for months and longer periods. "one other financial society which specialized in the real estate business which does business for some $ million per year, will start through the intermediary of the commercial bank of haiti a program of construction of houses whereby the credit will be given for years. "a system of insurance will cover the construction and a house will be given as a reward for the clients of the enterprise. our country will be benefited with important advantages because of the interesting contracts taken by mr. clemard j. charles in new york. the president and the director general of the bank will take soon the plane for canada and mexico in order to follow on these important contracts which will be very favorable to our economy, and will permit the commercial bank of haiti to be of further advantage to the people of haiti." mr. jenner. you have read the two columns appearing under that heading that you described. now, would you read the column to the right of those two columns? mr. de mohrenschildt. "mr. c. j. charles, honorary citizen of the city of new york. mr. clemard joseph charles, president and director of the bank commercial of haiti, port-au-prince, has come back yesterday morning with his charming wife, sophie, from a trip of weeks in new york, and was accompanied by mr. james r. green, vice president of the manufacturers hanover trust co., which is a large bank of wall street, new york. "mr. green spent just a few hours in the capital, just sufficient time to visit the commercial bank with which hanover trust co. wants to do business. mr. charles is very satisfied from the contacts which he has made during this trip, and satisfied with the promotion of his commercial bank. the haitian banker was honored by mayor wagner of the city of new york, and has made his assistant, mr. o'brien, give the key of the city as an honorary citizen, to mr. charles." mr. jenner. mr. reporter, would you mark that "george s. de mohrenschildt exhibit no. "? mr. de mohrenschildt. this is by the way the photograph of a paper. mr. jenner. this is a photostat of two news items in the haitian paper in port-au-prince, together with a telegram. now, all those together comprised, did they, some of the promotion literature with respect to your haitian venture? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. in what respect? can you give us the thrust of that? mr. de mohrenschildt. in the respect that they acquaint the possible investor with the personalities involved. mr. jenner. all right. who is the gentleman who sent the telegram? mr. de mohrenschildt. mr. tardieu. mr. jenner. what is his first name? mr. de mohrenschildt. mr. b. juindine tardieu, who is the agent and you might say a broker who negotiated the contract with the haitian government. mr. jenner. well---- mr. de mohrenschildt. he is domiciled in haiti. mr. jenner. all right. now, you had some correspondence with clemard joseph charles? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. is the letter i now hand you, which we will identify as george s. de mohrenschildt exhibit no. , a photostatic copy of correspondence between you and that gentleman, a copy of which you transmitted to paul raigorodsky? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; that is the letter i received. (the document referred to was marked "george s. de mohrenschildt exhibit no. " for identification.) mr. jenner. now i will show you a series of three documents, the first sheet consisting of a photostat of an envelope addressed, i believe in your handwriting, to mr. paul raigorodsky; is that correct? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. in dallas. the next being a personal note of yours in your longhand to mr. raigorodsky; is that correct? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes, indeed. mr. jenner. the next being in the form of a copy of a letter from you, dated july , , to mr. jean de menil. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. in which you have written in the upper right-hand corner in your handwriting, "copy for mr. raigorodsky." is what i have said correct? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. and lastly, there appears to be promotional literature, one sheet, dated august , , signed by you at the bottom? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes, indeed. mr. jenner. and on your letterhead--george de mohrenschildt, petroleum geologist and engineer, - republican national bank building, dallas , tex. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. mr. reporter, would you mark those in the record, i have given them to you, as "de mohrenschildt exhibits , , , and ." (the documents referred to were marked "de mohrenschildt exhibits , , , and " for identification.) mr. jenner. in addition to those materials, did you also transmit to mr. raigorodsky two additional documents which i have in my hand--one a photostatic copy of a western union telegram, dated august , , from tardieu to you, and the second document a copy of a letter of yours to the gentlemen i mentioned a moment ago, mr. jean de menil; dated august , , upon which there appears some handwritten notes of yours to mr. raigorodsky? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes, sir. mr. jenner. is that your handwriting? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes, sir; that is right. mr. jenner. mr. reporter, mark those documents, if you will, as "de mohrenschildt exhibits and ." (the documents referred to were marked "de mohrenschildt exhibits and " for identification.) mr. jenner. on september , you appear to have transmitted some additional materials to mr. raigorodsky. i hold in my hand three documents. the first, a photostatic copy of an envelope, with your letterhead in the upper left-hand corner, your dallas office, addressed to mr. paul raigorodsky. the second, a letter signed "george and jeanne" over a typewritten signature, "jeanne and george de mohrenschildt." is the george and jeanne in handwriting your handwriting? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. and this letter is dated september , . you transmitted that letter to mr. raigorodsky? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes, indeed. mr. jenner. in the envelope we have just identified. and did you also enclose the third document, which is a diagram of---- mr. de mohrenschildt. of the planned development in haiti. mr. jenner. and it has in the lower left-hand corner in longhand "credits available for these industries--george de m., dallas, september , ." is that your handwriting? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes, indeed. mr. jenner. did you also send mr. raigorodsky a map of haiti, in which you--excuse me. mr. reporter, would you mark the three documents i have just identified as de mohrenschildt exhibits , , and . (the documents referred to were marked "de mohrenschildt exhibits , , and " for identification.) mr. jenner. mr. reporter, identify the next document as de mohrenschildt exhibit no. . (the document referred to was marked "de mohrenschildt exhibit no. " for identification.) mr. jenner. for the purpose of the record, it is the description map of haiti. this is a map published by the texaco co., and it is available to anybody who wants to pick up a map at a gasoline service station, is it not? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. it is not a fancy geologist's map, for example? mr. de mohrenschildt. no. mr. jenner. did you send that to mr. raigorodsky? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes, indeed. mr. jenner. there is some longhand on it, do you see that? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. and is that your longhand? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. in the upper right-hand corner---- mr. de mohrenschildt. it shows the possibility for---- mr. jenner. excuse me. i just want you to read the words, and not elaborate. i am going to have you elaborate on them. there is in the upper right-hand corner first near the letter "a" of "atlantic," an arrow pointing to the left, to a small island. what are the words there? mr. de mohrenschildt. "new resorts." mr. jenner. and then to the right of that inscription, there are three lines of words, and an arrow pointing to an area in which i see the word "caracol." read those words. mr. de mohrenschildt. "new resort, chou-chou beach." mr. jenner. all right. now, in the lower left-hand portion of the upper right-hand quadrant there appears an inscription with an arrow pointing to "mont rouis." and then below that, over what appears to be a series of islands encircled, there appears more writing. mr. de mohrenschildt. "oil possibilities on this island." mr. jenner. all right. do the words "on this island" appear? mr. de mohrenschildt. no. just "oil possibilities." mr. jenner. i am just getting the wording first, and then i will have you explain it all later. mr. de mohrenschildt. "our shada concession." mr. jenner. now, the words "our shada concession" are the words at the lead end of the arrow which points to mont rouis, which you have already identified in the record. now, to the extreme right, and at the margin, opposite the inscriptions we have just described, there is some more writing. would you read that? mr. de mohrenschildt. "brown and root built this dam." mr. jenner. all right. now, there is an encirclement around--between the two we have identified, but above--it looks as though the center of this island here--there is an inscription. this appears in the area--there is an x there--an airplane indication hinche and there is some writing. what is that? mr. de mohrenschildt. "oil possibilities." mr. jenner. all right. now, port-au-prince is encircled. then at the bottom, which is the lower right-hand quadrant, there is an arrow pointed to pationville. and that arrow leads to some handwriting. mr. de mohrenschildt. "ibolele hotel." mr. jenner. now, to the left of that inscription, and in the center of the map, the lower half, there is an encirclement that encircles an area, the chief town of which appears to be what? mr. de mohrenschildt. lescayes. mr. jenner. and what is written there? mr. de mohrenschildt. "oil possibilities." mr. jenner. now, i guess we have gotten everything you have written on there. now, with those papers, would you proceed to tell us now about your haitian venture, and take those papers, since they seem to be in some order of sequence as to time, and tell us all about it. mr. de mohrenschildt. well---- mr. jenner. in other words, this venture is no mite, is it? mr. de mohrenschildt. no. it started--it already started by my previous work there in . it is the result of many trips i took to haiti in the meantime. and it is a result of an effort which started in . i have in my possession a letter from the minister of mines which-- mr. jenner. of what country? mr. de mohrenschildt. of haiti. dated in , giving me an opportunity to present a geological survey of haiti. mr. jenner. what was that to be for? mr. de mohrenschildt. this was to search and study the oil and gas and all the mineralogical points of the whole country. mr. jenner. did this have anything, any purpose or intent, other than a legitimate effort on your part, on behalf of the haitian government, to you as a petroleum engineer and geologist, to discover in haiti mineral deposits that might be of economic value to haiti, and to those who might be willing to risk their capital to develop it? mr. de mohrenschildt. this is the only purpose i have--purely business promotional project. mr. jenner. and this is in no way linked, directly, indirectly, or in any remote possibility, with any mapping of this country with great care for the possibility of its being employed by any other nation or group? mr. de mohrenschildt. no; no other nation could use my maps, and no other project, except our own commercial and geological project--nothing else. anyway, the whole island of haiti has been mapped in complete precision by the u.s. government already, and the maps are available right here in washington. and my office in port-au-prince, actually they are officers of inter-american geodetic survey. on one side is the american representative of the geodetic survey, and on the other side i am doing my geological work in the same building. he helps me with some of his equipment, some of his advice, some of his maps, and we pursue our own work there. i employed in the last months since we have been in haiti an italian geologist who came specially to haiti from south america, with all the equipment, and stayed with us for several months. i employed a swiss assistant. i employed--i am employing an american geologist right now, recommended by the university of texas, who is living in haiti with his family, and whose salary i am paying; i am responsible for him. i have also, in addition to that, employed a prospector from alaska, an american. and i am employing a group of haitian engineers and geologists--engineers, not geologists, because they don't have geologists. engineers. and it is a project which--for which the haitian government is supposed to pay me $ , , out of which they pay $ , in cash, and the rest they are paying from the interest in the sisal plantation at mont rouis. this plantation started to be operated jointly by mr. clemard j. charles, president of the commercial bank of haiti, and myself; and now mr. charles is operating it for me, doing all the administrative work, and i am pursuing my geological work. up to now, we found some things which were indicated on the map here. mr. jenner. i don't want you to reveal any business secret, because i appreciate--all i am getting at is the general description of the project, and its good faith. mr. de mohrenschildt. that is right. i hope that this will be sufficiently justified in good faith. mr. jenner. and these documents we have identified are documents which you sent to mr. raigorodsky with what thought in mind? mr. de mohrenschildt. with the thought of having him eventually participate in various enterprises which may come out of it. mr. jenner. such as? mr. de mohrenschildt. such as development of small industries, development of oil production, development of new hotels and new resorts, et cetera. because the country is open to new business and i think has excellent opportunities for american investments. mr. jenner. all right. now, you have expressed an opinion, have you not, as to the activity or lack of activity on the part of the fbi in connection with the assassination of the president? mr. de mohrenschildt. well, i think that they should have sent away from dallas every suspicious person, like any other country would do--when somebody--when an important figure arrives to town, and there are deranged people, or people who have habits of shooting guns at targets or ones who have been traitors to their country to some extent, you know--any controversial people should be not necessarily put to jail, but sent away from the town. mr. jenner. and you have lee oswald in mind, do you? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; i have lee oswald in mind. mr. jenner. you assume that the fbi was aware that he had this weapon, and he was target practicing with it? mr. de mohrenschildt. that i do not know, whether they had that knowledge of the weapon. but it is not for me to judge them. but i think they should have known. if they didn't know, they should have known. mr. jenner. and i take it your opinion, whether they did or did not know of the weapon, they had other information with respect to oswald's attempted defection and matters of that nature which you feel---- mr. de mohrenschildt. they must have had that information. mr. jenner. and as an american citizen, it is your view that they should have done what? mr. de mohrenschildt. i think they should have--in my opinion, they shouldn't have let him come back to the united states--no. . and no. , the people like us should have been protected against even knowing people like oswald. maybe i am wrong in that respect. mr. jenner. well, it is an opinion. that is all i am asking you for. mr. de mohrenschildt. and thirdly, oswald was known as a violent character, especially in the last time. he was known, as i read from the papers, that he participated in pro-castro demonstrations in new orleans. that is what i read in the papers. and so therefore, he should have been kept away from dallas when the president was there. mr. jenner. mr. reporter, would you mark the auchincloss letter, dated february , , and its accompanying envelope as de mohrenschildt exhibits and , respectively? (the documents referred to were marked "de mohrenschildt exhibits and ," for identification.) mr. jenner. and the auchincloss letter of december , , and its accompanying envelope as de mohrenschildt exhibits and , respectively. (the documents referred to were marked "de mohrenschildt exhibits and ," for identification.) mr. de mohrenschildt. all these contracts in haiti have been made official by an act of congress of haiti on march , , and signed by the president of the country and by all the ministers, stipulating that the price of the geological survey would be $ , , and the consideration for it will be the concession of the sisal in haiti, originally an american company called shada, built by the u.s. department of agriculture and developed during the war, and later on sold to the haitian government. this concession is given to me for the duration of years, with an extended duration of years more. i think that will explain it. mr. jenner. fine. mr. de mohrenschildt. i could talk for hours about this project, because it was developed through so many years, and so much effort. mr. jenner. in order that the correspondence be complete, mr. de mohrenschildt has produced for me the response he received to his letter of december , , to mrs. auchincloss. mr. de mohrenschildt, since it is a personal letter, i will ask you to read the letter in evidence. it has a longhand note on it. you might want to keep the original. so just read it. and just for the purpose of the record, and not because i suspicion you, i will watch you read it. it is on letterhead, o street, northwest, washington, d.c. mr. de mohrenschildt. that is correct. "dear george: "thank you for your letter and for your sympathy for jacqueline. please accept my deepest sympathy in the loss of your son. how tragic for you. "it seems extraordinary to me that you knew oswald and that you knew jackie as a child. it is certainly a very strange world." mr. jenner. hold it a minute. the second paragraph begins with the words "it seems." mr. de mohrenschildt. "you did not say why you were in haiti, so i imagine that you are in our foreign service. if you come to washington again, i would like to talk with you, and i would very much like to meet your wife. when you next write to dimitri, will you send him my warmest regards, and thank him for his sympathy." mr. jenner. dimitri is your brother? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. now, there is a longhand note. mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. "i live now in georgetown. your letter has made me think a good deal. i hope too--that mrs. oswald will not suffer. "very sincerely, janet lee auchincloss." mr. jenner. dated? mr. de mohrenschildt. wednesday, january . mr. jenner. all right. you just keep that original. mr. de mohrenschildt. thank you. mr. jenner. i show you what purports to be a transcript of a christmas card, , allegedly transmitted by you, appearing at page , commission document -f. would you read it, please? mr. de mohrenschildt. this paragraph? mr. jenner. the whole card. mr. de mohrenschildt. "merry christmas and happy new year. best wishes for , george and jeanne de m. "alex is in new york state, supposedly working at some mental hospital. gary taylor takes care of cousin lil. nancy is alive, still kicking. we are happy here. appalled at the crimes in dallas. "george." mr. jenner. you transmitted that christmas card with that inscription? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. now, would you explain your statement, "appalled at the crimes in dallas"? mr. de mohrenschildt. well, i mean the assassination of the president and subsequent assassination of lee oswald by ruby, and the assassination by oswald of this policeman--three assassinations, one after another. mr. jenner. all right. by the way, did you ever see jack ruby in the flesh? mr. de mohrenschildt. never; no. on tv you mean? mr. jenner. no. did you know him when you were in dallas? mr. de mohrenschildt. no. mr. jenner. to the best of your recollection, had you ever seen him when you were in dallas? mr. de mohrenschildt. don't recall. mr. jenner. was his name ever mentioned at any conversation that took place in the presence of lee oswald while you were present? mr. de mohrenschildt. never. mr. jenner. was at any time there any conversation, or did anything occur while you were in dallas to lead you to believe directly or indirectly, or to any degree whatsoever, that lee oswald knew jack ruby? mr. de mohrenschildt. no, sir; not one indication. mr. jenner. did anything occur in dallas by way of any statements to you, statements made in your presence, or anything you noticed or saw, that would lead you at any time while you were in dallas, to lead you to believe that lee oswald was ever in the carousel club in dallas? mr. de mohrenschildt. no. mr. jenner. did you try to interest mr. kitchel in your haiti venture? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. and he did not join? mr. de mohrenschildt. no. mr. jenner. that was a friendly gesture on your part, was it? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. i am pleased to say to you that he so regarded it. mr. de mohrenschildt. i am glad to hear that. mr. jenner. that he thought you were in good faith, offering him an opportunity to participate, and you were not thinking in terms of any business advantage. mr. de mohrenschildt. no, no. mr. jenner. and that is the fact; is it? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes; of course. i offered this project to quite a few people, and it so happened that at the time they were afraid of haiti, and i am very happy to say that i am now the sole proprietor of the whole project. it may be all for the best. mr. jenner. i will show the witness pages , and and of commission document no. . i wish to direct your attention primarily to the--what purports to be a letter from you to mr. kitchel, setting forth the background of information on a holding company that you were developing in haiti. would you read the letter? mr. de mohrenschildt. "haitian holding company." mr. jenner. excuse me. it may already be in evidence. mr. de mohrenschildt. "august , ." mr. jenner. i think not--but if you will hold a minute. what i have just shown you is a copy of de mohrenschildt exhibit no. . mr. de mohrenschildt. yes, sir; this was followed, of course, by many other letters and correspondence with our prospective investors and people who might be interested in a mining development of haiti. i am negotiating right now with an aluminum company for the development of bauxite, and with oil companies in regard to development of oil possibilities. mr. jenner. mr. de mohrenschildt, we have had some discussions off the record, and i had lunch with you a couple of times. is there anything that we discussed during the course of any off-the-record discussions which i have not already brought out on the record that you think is pertinent and should be brought out? mr. de mohrenschildt. i don't remember any. mr. jenner. none occurs to you? mr. de mohrenschildt. no. mr. jenner. now, i don't know everything by any means. i will ask you this general question. is there anything else, despite all our careful investigation, and my questioning of you at some length, that you think is pertinent and might be helpful to the commission in its important work, and if you can think of anything, would you please mention it? mr. de mohrenschildt. frankly, i cannot think of anything else you could do. all the rest--what else can you do except investigate as much as you can? mr. jenner. mr. de mohrenschildt, you appear here voluntarily and at some inconvenience? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and on behalf of the commission, and the commission staff, i want to express our appreciation to you for having come to this country, at some inconvenience, and your answering my questions here for days spontaneously and directly. some of them have been highly personal. but you have exhibited no discomfiture because they have been personal. we appreciate your assistance and your help. mr. de mohrenschildt. i hope i have been helpful to some extent. mr. jenner. now, as i spoke to you yesterday, you have a right to read your deposition, and to sign it, and you told me i think yesterday that you would like to read it over. mr. de mohrenschildt. if it won't be a very lengthy job and very hurried job to do that, and inconvenience the reporter. i think i have said everything i could know. i don't think i could add or change very much. it is all right as far as i am concerned. mr. jenner. as far as you are concerned, you would just as soon waive the necessity of reading and signing? mr. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. fine. mr. de mohrenschildt. if i made a mistake, it was involuntary. i might have missed a date or something. but i did to the best of my ability. mr. jenner. we will have your deposition by tomorrow. and mrs. de mohrenschildt will be here tomorrow. if you would like to come over and read it, you may. otherwise, if you don't return to read it, we will consider that you have waived it. i offer in evidence the exhibits i have heretofore marked, being de mohrenschildt exhibits through , inclusive. testimony of jeanne de mohrenschildt the testimony of jeanne de mohrenschildt was taken at : p.m., on april , , at maryland avenue ne., washington, d.c. by mr. albert e. jenner, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. jenner. do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, and nothing but the truth, in the course of your deposition which i am about to take? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. you are mrs. george s. de mohrenschildt? mrs. de mohrenschildt. why "s"? the "s" doesn't belong there at all. mr. jenner. well, he acknowledged that it does. mrs. de mohrenschildt. s? mr. jenner. yes. sergei. mrs. de mohrenschildt. i have a brother by the same name sergei, and he had a son by the name sergei. maybe he wants to add the letter to our name. mr. jenner. no. it shows in the records for many, many years. mrs. de mohrenschildt. i never knew that. sergei is his father's name--that is what it is. mr. jenner. you have a brother whose name is sergei, do you not? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. sergei michail fomenko. give me your full maiden name. your name as you were born and given to you by your parents. mrs. de mohrenschildt. the first name will be eugenia. mr. jenner. and---- mrs. de mohrenschildt. i have no middle name. just fomenko. mr. jenner. now, your mother's name was tatiana? mrs. de mohrenschildt. tatiana. my father, michail. mr. jenner. and your father was michail l.? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes. that is for--his father was lev. mr. jenner. you were born in china? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. our information is it was at harbin. mrs. de mohrenschildt. that is right. mr. jenner. what is the nearest town? mrs. de mohrenschildt. nearest town to what? mr. jenner. harbin. mrs. de mohrenschildt. i would not--i cannot say. mr. jenner. what part of china? mrs. de mohrenschildt. it is manchuria. the northern part of china, close to the siberian border. mr. jenner. you mean the russian-chinese border? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. do you have a sister? mrs. de mohrenschildt. from what i recall, we had a--we had three portraits in the house, of children--my portrait, my brother's portrait, and there was a portrait of a little girl. and the portrait--she was about or years old. i don't know how, where did they get that idea, or was i actually told--but she is supposed to be my half-sister--alexandra her name was supposed to be. and i think my father was married before he married my mother, but, you know, they don't tell much to children, and we never asked anything. we have never had any curiosity about it. mr. jenner. you are a naturalized citizen of this nation, are you not? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. were you naturalized on april , ? mrs. de mohrenschildt. no--couldn't. i came here in . how could you possibly get that? mr. jenner. all right. i am misadvised. i was looking at the wrong thing. you were naturalized when? mrs. de mohrenschildt. i believe it was , but i cannot be absolutely sure. i have my papers in the hotel. or , maybe it is . if you want the exact date, i can easily get it for you. do you actually have information, naturalized in ? mr. jenner. no, i don't. i have your immigration record here. i will find it in a moment. you became a u.s. citizen in proceedings in the u.s. district court, in new york city, february , . mrs. de mohrenschildt. . mr. jenner. were you born on may , ? mrs. de mohrenschildt. right. mr. jenner. your parents, were they russian citizens? mrs. de mohrenschildt. my father took a chinese passport, and i cannot tell you whether he already had it when i was born, or whether he took one later. but i believe he took one later. he took probably one later, when they sold the railroad to the reds, you know. that is when he took the chinese passport. mr. jenner. he was born in russia? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. and your mother was born in russia? mrs. de mohrenschildt. to my knowledge, yes. they were living a few years in china before i was born. mr. jenner. now, in what business or occupation or government service was your father engaged? mrs. de mohrenschildt. my father was in charge of the far eastern railroad. mr. jenner. for what country? mrs. de mohrenschildt. for china. he was working directly with the chinese government and with chinese officials, with chinese people. and then in , when the chinese sold the railroad---- mr. jenner. when what? mrs. de mohrenschildt. in , the chinese people sold the railroad to the russians, and they changed the tracks, connected with the trans-siberian railroad. my father resigned. and he received quite a lot of money from that. he had been in the service for quite a few years. mr. jenner. you were years old then? mrs. de mohrenschildt. ; yes. mr. jenner. and you were personally aware of this event? mrs. de mohrenschildt. oh, yes; i knew about that. i cannot tell you--that is recollections of the past. and he started to build another railroad on his own called hohi railroad. mr. jenner. excuse me. you came to this country on august , . mrs. de mohrenschildt. right; san francisco. mr. jenner. all right. now, your father, as you said, was director of a chinese eastern railroad. mrs. de mohrenschildt. that is right. mr. jenner. i was looking for some papers here. the chinese sold the railroad to russia? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. that was in ? mrs. de mohrenschildt. that is how i understood it. mr. jenner. in any event, your father ceased at that time to be director of the chinese eastern railroad. mrs. de mohrenschildt. that is right. he resigned, and in fact we were planning to come to the united states, the whole family. we wanted to come to the united states. mr. jenner. why? mrs. de mohrenschildt. just because it is not our country to live there forever. we were brought up with white people, you know. mr. jenner. why did your father resign when the railroad was sold to the russians? mrs. de mohrenschildt. because from what i know they wanted him to take a communist passport, and he refused. mr. jenner. was he anti-communist? mrs. de mohrenschildt. that is from what i know he is supposed to have chinese passport. mr. jenner. was he anti-communist? mrs. de mohrenschildt. oh, absolutely, absolutely. he was--not the chief, but the elderly friend for the scouts. we had a wonderful scout organization, boy scouts and girl scouts. he was very, very active in that. he was sort of like a patron for it. we have a marvelous organization in china. in fact, i didn't see anywhere in the world yet--how well it was conducted. mr. jenner. now, what happened to your father eventually? mrs. de mohrenschildt. we never could, since , right after pearl harbor---- mr. jenner. what? mrs. de mohrenschildt. after pearl harbor, we didn't have any communications at all, neither myself nor my brother. we tried to check through the red cross and find out. nothing could be done. we just couldn't find out. whenever i saw some people that returned from china, came over, and whenever i asked them what happened to my parents, did you see them, how are they, they never said a word, said they didn't know, they just disappeared. then in , when i saw my brother, he told me that he didn't want to tell me, but he found out in and he knew then they were both dead for quite a while already. father was killed by the communists. mr. jenner. which communists? mrs. de mohrenschildt. well, i don't know which ones--the chinese or reds or japanese--i don't know who. and he was taken on the railroad--that is, usual procedure, they take you on a car somewhere and shoot you. and my brother told me he died in . i don't know how he found out. i assume and i think that the american government helped him, because he is in rather secret work. he could not possibly do it, having parents---- mr. jenner. this is your brother who lives out in california? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. now, you eventually--before you came to the united states, were you married? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes; i was married to my first husband. mr. jenner. did you marry in china? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. and what was the name of your first husband? mrs. de mohrenschildt. he had a few first names, and to tell you the truth i don't know which one is the right one. i cannot say. because half of the friends called him by one name, half of the friends called him by the other name. mr. jenner. well---- mrs. de mohrenschildt. the first name was valentin, and the second one was bob--they called him bob. so which one is right, i don't know. but i liked bob better. mr. jenner. what was his last name? mrs. de mohrenschildt. his last name was bogoiavlensky. mr. jenner. and you were married when? mrs. de mohrenschildt. i believe we were married in , in the fall. mr. jenner. in what business or profession was your husband engaged when you were married? mrs. de mohrenschildt. well, at the time when we were married, he was--we were both working, making designs and constructions--making plans and building houses together. mr. jenner. were you associated in business? mrs. de mohrenschildt. it wasn't exactly business. i don't know--it is not done like it is done in the united states. we just knew how to build houses, we knew all the measurements and everything, and we had the project--somebody wanted a house of such and such dimensions, we would design it, make all the blueprints, and then we had worked with contractors and had the building constructed. and then i believe he was also working in the--the japanese were building their airport. mr. jenner. where? mrs. de mohrenschildt. in harbin. and he was helping and surveying the grounds or something. this i don't know, because i wasn't present--something on this order. and that is what really actually made us leave north in a hurry and go south, because the japanese started to grab all the people that knew anything at all close to those plants. they wanted to keep everything very, very secret. so quite a few of our friends just disappeared overnight. and then in a couple of weeks they may appear again half dead already, completely beaten to a pulp and so on. quite a few things started to go on. and then somebody mentioned that they didn't like the idea that we knew too much about the plants or something of the airport and said we better leave, and we just left with very, very few things. we took a train and went south, and went to shanghai, and lived in shanghai, until we were ready to come to the united states. mr. jenner. while you were in china, were you and your husband--did you engage as a dancing team? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes; i was dancing quite well. you see, when you travel like that you cannot just get another job somewhere. so he was helping me. he helped me as a partner. and i danced a solo. we did that in tientsin. and then shanghai. mr. jenner. and in order to support yourselves---- mrs. de mohrenschildt. we were a dancing team. you see, it was a temporary period, but if things go well, we were doing very well really. fate does strange things to you--throws you from one profession to another. you think it is the greatest tragedy--i will tell you later what happened to me--and it is the best, actually. so it was working out very well. we were quite successful. and then something happened later. mr. jenner. now, did you change your name at this period of your life? mrs. de mohrenschildt. we changed the name when we started dancing. mr. jenner. and you changed your name to what? mrs. de mohrenschildt. legon. we picked up the name out of the dancing magazine. but with this name--you see how it happens. you get so involved that you have to stick to it. you cannot just--you knew--because some people know you by this name, then you start with another name, and it sounds ridiculous. but since then already we had it. and we intended that when we came over, we are going to adopt it, because personally i don't think it is fair to our friend, and it is not fair for the country to use a name like bogoiavlensky, or a name like de mohrenschildt. if it would be up to me, i would cut the other one down. it took me months to learn to pronounce that name. mr. jenner. there have been some people that because of the name legon--that you had some french. you are not french? mrs. de mohrenschildt. no, i will tell you. i had to start in new york to do something, had a little girl a year old, and my husband had terrible trouble to get any kind of work. he was making $ a week. mr. jenner. in ? mrs. de mohrenschildt. no; it was , , when my little girl was born. mr. jenner. your daughter was born in this country? mrs. de mohrenschildt. oh, yes. mr. jenner. and your daughter's name? mrs. de mohrenschildt. that is why i could not dance any more. i had to drop completely dancing and everything. mr. jenner. now, that you have mentioned your daughter, let's cover her. what was her given name? mrs. de mohrenschildt. her given name was jeanne elinor legon. also after a dancer. mr. jenner. eleanor powell? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes, exactly. and being unaware--you see, in europe if you have two names, the first name is important, the second one is usually your mother's or somebody, and you have it just in case. in the states the last name is the one that counts--the previous names don't mean much. so when she was born, we were not citizens yet, and we didn't have a legal paper of changing our name to legon. so in her birth certificate i put down jeanne elinor legon and just in case, bogoiavlensky, so just in case something happened to us she would not be an orphan thrown somewhere--i was so afraid something would go wrong and she would be put out of the country or something--she was born here, and that is her name, and i put that bogoiavlensky on the birth certificate. and that started the whole uproar. and besides--i lost her birth certificate once when i needed it for a passport--i could not find it, because i was looking under "l"--i told them to look under "l". and for months they were looking under "l" and then it dawned on me, did i put, by any chance, bogoiavlensky. so they filed it under "b". well, it is my own fault--i asked for it. i can't get rid of that name. it is a pretty name. in fact, it is a very novel name. but i don't think it belongs in this country. i think it is ridiculous for people to have such long names. if you are a priest's family, that would be fine. but not for us. mr. jenner. when was your daughter born? mrs. de mohrenschildt. she mas born april , . mr. jenner. i might go back with your husband. where was your husband born, your first husband? mrs. de mohrenschildt. from what i know, he was born in--i think in russia--and brought out as a very, very little boy. and i never met his father. his mother was supposed to be dead when he was born. i only knew his stepmother, who was absolutely wonderful. he had two half brothers, charming boys, and they were both lost in the war with china and japan. we never could find them. one of them was with the british forces and another with the french forces. and i understand one was sent to hong kong, and the other remained in shanghai. and we never heard from them. so that is one of the really big tragedies. we were anxious to find them, because we were going to get them over here. they had good heads. they could grow up very fine. mr. jenner. you have always regarded the united states as a haven? mrs. de mohrenschildt. absolutely. it was the country by choice, because we could have gone to europe. but i didn't want anything--this was from so and so. i said i wanted to have a country where everything is new and fresh, and if i break something i go to the store and buy another one. i never have anything you can break. it was just because i was brought up with furniture with little gilded things in it, i don't want any part of it. i have been in europe about times after. mr. jenner. i know you have. mrs. de mohrenschildt. and i enjoy being there for a few weeks. but i would never live in europe. i would not be happy. if i had to, i would live there, but i don't like--the whole atmosphere doesn't appeal to me. mr. jenner. there have been various reports on your views with respect to russia and communism. what are your views? mrs. de mohrenschildt. what i am? mr. jenner. what are your views? mrs. de mohrenschildt. my views? well, i tell you. i am not a communist by all means at all. i think that revolution in russia was inevitable. it is just horrible that it happened that way, and it was so bloody, and so many people---- mr. jenner. you are talking now about the revolution of the 's? mrs. de mohrenschildt. , i think. mr. jenner. , . mrs. de mohrenschildt. , --that is when it started. i know in fact very little of the whole thing, because at home there was never any conversation--too many people were killed. in fact, from what i understand, all the families of my father and mother were killed, too. so we never had any conversation about it. we just were kept away from the whole thing. and, beside, i deliberately stayed away from all of that. i said it is none of my business, i have never been there, i don't know what it is all about, i don't want to know anything about it. i don't want to be prejudiced to anything. but after, later on, when i grew up and the revolution was necessary, it is just too bad it happened like that. and i do hope that the country eventually will come out and become human again, and i think it is getting to be more and more human. but it is still a far cry from freedom, from the freedom like we have. that was the most wonderful thing. when i came here--unfortunately, i landed in new york. i didn't want to, but my brother was in new york and he said you come right away to new york. i love california, because of the climate. i like sunshine. so i came to new york, and new york, of course, was very depressing to me, because it was dirty. and i had an idea that all the white countries and white cities must be clean, because white people are not supposed to spit on the floor, and they don't throw papers around. they are supposed to be well mannered. and then i came in in that awful new york. and, of course, i had almost no money. i had to use subways. it was very, very bad. but then i saw all of a sudden on the street there is a gathering of people, somebody is standing and shouting and talking and saying anything he wants to. and i said, what is going on? they said he is just saying something--i forgot what it was all about. but how people were talking freely and expressing themselves openly. mr. jenner. they had a right to do that? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes; and in china--you see, we were always--we never could say anything openly, for many reasons. first, i don't know, but i assume there was a lot of red spies probably everywhere. so we could never say too much. then there were japanese that came over. we couldn't say anything again. so we were trained as children just to be quiet, never talk because you never know who may overhear, and then tomorrow goodbye, something will happen to you. that is the atmosphere that i was brought up in. i wish my husband would be brought up in that atmosphere, because sometimes he says things--of course, being european, he likes to see russia. i said, yes, but not yet, because you would not last there for days, you would be shot in days. he doesn't feel that there is a place, places that you cannot be like he is. you just cannot do it. maybe that is why he has so much trouble, because he just talks anything he wants to say, and people misinterpret it. people misinterpret it, and then they hear something, somebody repeated, already something else, and then they say he says something bad. this is really terrible. this is many, many times, you know. but he learned his lesson now. living in haiti we cannot talk very much, either, with papa doc. you know the regime there now. he is quite a dictator. he is going to be pronounced the king now, at the end of may. and, of course, there is tremendous opposition against it. it is not for our sake, but for our haitian friends' sake, we cannot say anything. so he learned a little bit of the atmosphere where you cannot talk. he said--"i am so glad we went to haiti, because i have no desire to go to russia." that was wonderful. it was music to my ears. i said, "now, you learn." mr. jenner. well---- mrs. de mohrenschildt. but some day i hope, anyway. i would like to see it. i would like to go down south to the crimea which i understand is beautiful, the black sea. i would like to see all the world. i saw quite a lot. but i would like to see that, too. mr. jenner. your brother, sergei, he came over to this country, did he? mrs. de mohrenschildt. what? mr. jenner. don't you have a brother by the name of---- mrs. de mohrenschildt. did he what? mr. jenner. he came to this country? mrs. de mohrenschildt. oh, yes. i believe he came in . mr. jenner. and he is still here? mrs. de mohrenschildt. oh, yes. mr. jenner. and where is he located now? mrs. de mohrenschildt. he is in woodland hills, calif. mr. jenner. engaged in---- mrs. de mohrenschildt. i think it is deseret drive. he is with north american aircraft co. he just switched. he was with ramo wooldridge. a few years before that he was with linnet co. in beverly hills, and before that with howard hughes, and before that he was with berkeley, university at berkeley, doing some research. mr. jenner. he attended the university of chicago? mrs. de mohrenschildt. he attended after the war. but he originally came over to study in berkeley. he graduated from berkeley. but then when the war broke out he volunteered--he was - / years in service. but he was never sent over, because he did so much important research work, that they kept him here. and he met professor rasby of chicago university. and then he went to work with him in chicago university for very, very little money, but he had all the facilities for his work. that is where he met his second wife, a very lovely woman, and they are very happy now, i hope. four little kinds, darling home. mr. jenner. and you eventually were divorced from your first husband? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. he retained the name robert legon? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. he didn't change his name back to bogoiavlensky? mrs. de mohrenschildt. no. by the way, do you know he is in a rest home? mr. jenner. yes; i do. mrs. de mohrenschildt. there was a lot of unpleasantness around in that time, because he was already going off completely. mr. jenner. and you were divorced from him in the summer of ? mrs. de mohrenschildt. oh, no, no; before that. it was , spring of . yes; it was in the spring of . i believe it was first of may or something. i don't remember exactly. but it is pretty close. mr. jenner. and you married your present husband, george de mohrenschildt, in the summer of ? mrs. de mohrenschildt. , yes; in june, towards the end of june. mr. jenner. and your daughter who was born to you in new york city---- mrs. de mohrenschildt. in manhattan hospital. mr. jenner. she was--her given name was---- mrs. de mohrenschildt. jeanne elinor legon. mr. jenner. and she changed her name to christiana? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes; her father did it. she was just a youngster. you know what happened to him mentally. he went completely--i don't know, maybe when people go crazy, lots of things begin to bother them, maybe his conscience was bothering him because he dropped his father's name or something. but for a particular reason he didn't take it himself, but he put it--insisted that my daughter will take the name. mr. jenner. what name? mrs. de mohrenschildt. bogoiavlensky--and drop the legon. and she was baptized--she was brought up as episcopalian. i never baptized her, because i wanted her to choose her own religion when she grew up. i know too many people who have too many difficulties later when they find out they want something else. by the time she was baptized she liked the name christiana and she took that name. and he changed her name to bogoiavlensky again. so it was very, very unpleasant and horrible, what the poor fellow didn't do. mr. jenner. did he cause you some difficulty with respect to accusing you of being a communist? mrs. de mohrenschildt. i don't know if you have a letter, i wish i would have a letter what he did. you see i had charge accounts throughout the country, because i was making very good money. lord and taylor, saks, all the biggest restaurants everywhere. and when that happened, i actually told him that is the end, i am divorcing you, and that is it, and there will be no change back, nothing at all, he sent out letters to all of these places, to all the restaurants, all the department stores, including niemans, and i believe niemans showed me the letter, and there was a golden pheasant restaurant--they showed me the letter--that so and so, and he expressed in a horrible way that eugenia fomenko bogoiavlensky, my ex-wife, she is--almost putting that i am a spy, and god knows what in it, and that he is not responsible for my debts, for my accounts. it was , and since i was the one that made all the money in the family. i was the one making all these things, bringing up my child. so that was horrible. that is not all. he sent letters, and he signed "fbi"--make believe they are from the fbi. he sent to all my people in new york, firms that i work with, that also i am a spy or something, this and that, horrible. and i was in europe that summer. and a friend of mine came over and said, "what is the matter with you?" she said, "what happened to you? the fbi are looking for you." i said, "are you kidding me?" she said "no;" one of the manufacturers showed her the letter. i said, "for god sakes, this is ridiculous, i never heard of such a thing." so when i come back to new york i right away went to see all of them. they said, some were laughing about it. but some i know they had a little something behind their heads. mr. jenner. they were worried? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes; even a thing like that, a prank like that, already set people thinking. and do you know that i could not get a job in new york, just because of that? and, fortunately, being in texas, i switched to designing dresses and sportswear, and i had two jobs in no time in that market. and i was able to get--i lost my job in texas while i was in europe because of that. he sent that to my employer. i never told that--i don't know if my present husband knows it--because that would really kill him, a thing like that. but it was eventually straightened out. but i was actually out, i couldn't get a job, my daughter had to go to the university, i had to send her money. i had nothing. mr. jenner. where was she attending a university? mrs. de mohrenschildt. ucla. mr. jenner. when was this? mrs. de mohrenschildt. in . fall of . mr. jenner. did your daughter come to live with you right after she was---- mrs. de mohrenschildt. she came over for summer. mr. jenner. in ? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes; i will tell you. it is really a very tragic thing. i knew i should have dropped this when she was years old, because he was a very, very wonderful person, her father. but we just had different views on life, and liked to do entirely different things. and he just could not adapt himself to the country. i know a few people that when they lose everything they are lost. whatever we had, it is never the same. it never was good enough. our daughter would never have what we had in childhood. he was from a very wealthy family, and, fortunately, i was, too. i said, "for goodness sakes, who cares? we are alive. how many people are dead already? we are here. it is a new country. we will make what we want to make out of it." i started from $ a week. and in new york i was making $ , a week. that is what you can do in this country, if you put your mind to it, and you work. and if you don't have a negative attitude. but he could not. even when we had a nice home in california, with beautiful bay window, and the ocean, you can see catalina island and everything. he said, "no; at our house we had people for dinner every day." it is awful. he never could get adjusted to it. mr. jenner. but he wasn't earning a living, was he? mrs. de mohrenschildt. no; he wasn't. he was always--you see, i understand from talking to doctors--he was off for quite a while, which i didn't know. i didn't know it. and it never occurred to me. we were brought up maybe years set back. this was the husband, and that is the way it is, and that is the way it is going to be, so whatever it is that is how it is going to stay. so it never occurred to me there could be different ways, something wrong with him mentally. in fact, my brother many times mentioned he should go to a psychiatrist and find out why he should have such an attitude, but i laughed at my brother. unfortunately, maybe i should have listened to him. mr. jenner. tell us a little bit--you came to this country. did you and your husband attempt to resort again to your ballroom dancing? mrs. de mohrenschildt. we were supposed to. we had auditions with moss and hart, very successful. and we were almost ready to have a contract in the rainbow room. and then i became pregnant with my little girl. and that really shattered us to pieces. we are awfully happy to have a child, but that was not the time to have the child. we had to leave everything in china, because we had to cross all japan. so that was--at the time it was just like a tragedy. and after she was born, i could never dance. mr. jenner. now, after the birth of your daughter, did you--what did you do to sustain your family? mrs. de mohrenschildt. i stayed home for year. we just lived on whatever he made. because i wanted to bring her up--i don't believe in nurses. i like to bring my own child up, train her for everything, in whatever a little baby should be trained. and then if he could possibly make a little better, i would not go to work. but then i saw he is not getting any better, but he is getting more and more depressed, and is getting worse. he just didn't care. he had that attitude, "i don't care." i said if that is his attitude, if i don't do something, my daughter will have nothing altogether. so i started to think. what could i do? i spoke english, but crazy pigeon english. i couldn't do anything architecturally, because i don't know the terminology. i can automatically make the drawings, but i would not be able to render it. it would be impossible for me to have anything. and then actually, without knowing anything, i became a model. i had two lessons, and i pretended that i was very experienced. i fooled everybody. and i somehow got a job as a model. and then--at one place it didn't work out, because it was very depressing and horrible atmosphere. on seventh avenue it is no joke. mr. jenner. my daughter is a model. mrs. de mohrenschildt. probably with a good firm. i have a couple of firms that are fantastic. and then i switched to leeds ltd. and within year, from modeling, from , i became in charge of the showroom. i was selling, i was selecting fabrics, and became a stylist. and then gradually my salary was increasing and increasing, and i have been with them for years. but to start with, i worked days a week. i worked even sunday, until o'clock--that is how hard i worked. and the very same firm paid me in to design a collection for them, the same clothes i did years ago--$ for days, for - / days. so you see what you can do if you put yourself to it. only in the united states. mr. jenner. a country of opportunity. mrs. de mohrenschildt. if you want to. that is what marina--that is why i get mad with her. i told her, "marina, look at me." let's not talk about marina now. mr. jenner. i want to get to that. but i would like to cover this background first. you continued as a designer? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes; i switched firms. mr. jenner. of leeds wearing apparel? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes; then i started to travel to europe. mr. jenner. you made frequent trips to europe? mrs. de mohrenschildt. twice a year. mr. jenner. all right. now, eventually, you reached texas. how did that happen? mrs. de mohrenschildt. well, my daughter had asthma. she is a very allergic child. and her health was really terrible. in spite of all the care given to her, she just could not stand the new york climate. and our family doctor said the only way to save her--she was getting really sick from antibiotics and penicillin--is to change the climate. so i was very anxious to change the climate--going to california, that was my aim. but i could not reach california. mr. gold, of nardis sportswear in new york, wanted to open a suit department. and, of course, the buyers did know me all over the country--the same buyers--recommended to get in touch with me and engage me. and it was pretty good. it was $ , a year, plus two trips to europe, with expenses paid, and about $ , to buy the models--you just cannot go in and look at the shows. so i decided i am going to go and do it. and texas is better climatewise than new york. and, believe me, my daughter never had asthma since she left new york. it is a fantastic change. mr. jenner. now, when did you go to texas? mrs. de mohrenschildt. i went to texas in , i believe. mr. jenner. . did your husband accompany you? mrs. de mohrenschildt. i came in the summer, and then i had to go immediately to europe. and he came over in the fall, when my daughter returned from camp. he came over in the fall, and then shipped all the furniture. in the meanwhile, i stayed with the golds. they have a very big mansion---- mr. jenner. your husband left dallas? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes; he came in the fall of . mr. jenner. he came in the fall from new york city? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. and he was there--how long did he stay? mrs. de mohrenschildt. he stayed there until about february of . mr. jenner. and then he did what? mrs. de mohrenschildt. then he went to california. mr. jenner. was he working? mrs. de mohrenschildt. no; he went to visit my brother for holidays. we always tried to go to california instead of going to miami, to be with my brother. and he liked it so much, and we wanted so much to move to california. so we thought if he goes there, maybe he can locate something while i finish my contract. my contract was expiring in the spring of . mr. jenner. your contract with nardis? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes; then i would go there, also, also in the late spring or early summer--maybe he can locate something in the meanwhile, in california. and then i was very lucky. it was mr. gold's tough luck. but it was good luck for me, because he was indicted for taxes. there was a tremendous scandal. and he had two buildings--he lost one of the buildings. in other words, he could not afford even to go into the suit operation, and go ahead with it. so he was very glad that i asked for release, and he was glad to give it to me. he thought i am going to demand money and everything, because he wants to drop the contract before. and i was very glad. it worked out very nice for me. we remained good friends. and then i went to california. mr. jenner. did you work in california? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes; i worked with style garments, a coat and suit firm. mr. jenner. is that the name of it? mrs. de mohrenschildt. style garments. they are out of business now. the owners were interested in real estate. and they went into real estate. so the firm closed up. mr. jenner. how long did you remain in california? mrs. de mohrenschildt. actually living in one spot--that was . i think it was , spring, i received an offer from dallas, to fly just for or weeks, and design a collection of suits. it was for i. clark. that was wonderful. mr. jenner. that took you back to dallas? mrs. de mohrenschildt. on and off. i just went for a few weeks. you see, i designed a suit collection, and i went back. and then they asked me to come over and do some more dresses. so i started to go there back and forth. and also, at the same time, going to new york to buy fabrics for the firm, and at the same time i decided, well, if i do that, i might do the same type of work in new york. if i can fly to new york to buy fabrics, i can design in a few weeks, and make a few thousand dollars. i designed a collection for handmacher. i designed a collection for leeds. one week i got $ , . so you can see what can happen. but that really was getting me. because it went on until fall. i was on the plane more than off the plane. and it wasn't very good for my daughter. she was already , . mr. jenner. you had custody of your daughter? mrs. de mohrenschildt. in the divorce? mr. jenner. were you taking your daughter on these trips? mrs. de mohrenschildt. oh, no; how could i? she was going to school all the time. mr. jenner. was she going to school in california? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes; going to high school. mr. jenner. eventually, did you take up permanent residence in dallas? mrs. de mohrenschildt. i took up permanent residence at the time when i told my husband i am going to divorce him, and that was early fall of . mr. jenner. and you went to dallas? mrs. de mohrenschildt. i went to dallas. mr. jenner. did you take your daughter with you? mrs. de mohrenschildt. no; i did not. mr. jenner. she was then what age? mrs. de mohrenschildt. she was . and i have a reason for doing that, because i just couldn't do it to her father. he would be completely killed. the only thing left--he doesn't have any relatives at all. he doesn't have a single soul in this world. in fact, i tell you--in the divorce case, i insisted that he will have custody, so by giving her money, he will have money to live on, too. if i took the daughter, i could not give him money to live on--he wouldn't take it. but if he had custody of the child then she will be provided for, and he could still keep on going with that. so that was the thing. but it worked out the other way--when he completely turned in rage. he even, when i flew to california he wouldn't let me see her. i had to get a sheriff to see her. now, i understand. mr. jenner. he is in a mental institution in california now? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes. he was, on and off, and finally he is there. he seems to be incurable. mr. jenner. now, when did you meet your present husband? mrs. de mohrenschildt. . mr. jenner. when you came back to dallas? mrs. de mohrenschildt. to design a collection. i was working there. mr. jenner. and did his daughter as well as your daughter join you? mrs. de mohrenschildt. she did, but later on. mr. jenner. when was that? mrs. de mohrenschildt. she joined us in, i think, the spring of . mr. jenner. now---- mrs. de mohrenschildt. i had both girls for a while. you know, she eloped, his little girl. mr. jenner. and married gary taylor? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes; and i wanted to break that marriage right away, and get her back in school, and spank her--really tough. but the parents of the boy said give the kids a chance and this and that. it was no love--it was just delinquency. she didn't know who i was. she thought i will be easy going--knowing her father, she thought i was easy going. and all of a sudden she came in. she had to study, she had to be home at a certain time, every boy she is out with i have to meet first. so she couldn't possibly--i talked to her just last year. i said, "tell me frankly, you wanted to live with us, and you thought i would be very easy. and you certainly didn't like the way i was strict with you." but i was strict with my daughter, also. and she was older than she was. and she would not go out until she brought the young man to introduce. and then she asked us, and she was very respectful to my present husband. she asked, "what do you think of him?" she was already. that little kid was just or . so i could not possibly give her more leeway than to my daughter, who was so much older. sometimes i think maybe if i wasn't so strict with her, maybe--you never know with children. mr. jenner. well, now, mr. de mohrenschildt's daughter, alexandra, is now married. mrs. de mohrenschildt. she is divorced. can you imagine that? mr. jenner. she has remarried. tell me about your present husband. what kind of a person is he? mrs. de mohrenschildt. well, i tell you. he is a terrific person, absolutely terrific. he has a soul of gold. i really mean it. and sometimes he drives me so crazy, i can just smash his head, because he is so impatient. he is extremely impatient. he is always in a hurry. you have to be times faster than he is in order to have everything quiet. that is about the only quality that i would not like--he is just always in a hurry. he is always rushing somewhere, and everything has to be just immediately. never a second late. mr. jenner. is he an outspoken person? mrs. de mohrenschildt. oh, yes; very, very, very outspoken person. mr. jenner. very handsome and an attractive man? mrs. de mohrenschildt. well, i tell you. i like--inside--i think he is much better inside than outside. he is a good-looking man. and women find him fantastically attractive. i don't. i like his personality. i think he is wonderful. he feels--he is nice with people, he is nice with animals. i don't think he can ever hurt anybody or do deliberate harm. he can do a lot of harm by saying something without thinking, and actually hurt a person's feelings without realizing what he says may hurt them. he may do that. but he would never do anything deliberately to hurt anyone. so by speaking like that--for instance, he can make a joke about a person, really unintentional, and that joke might hurt a person. mr. jenner. he is a little heavy in his humor? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes; sometimes it is uncalled for at all. and, later on, when i tell him, he agrees with me. but it was already said. and especially when you hurt little people, they get awfully hurt. and he has that habit of sort of teasing people, or ribbing people, which some people appreciate and some people don't. i personally don't appreciate teasing, and i don't appreciate--i don't think it is necessary. he thinks it is very funny. i don't think it is funny at all. that is the thing. through that, i am sure he has a couple of people that don't like him very well. i don't think they hate him. the only one that is really not fond of him is his ex-wife, because of the children. mr. jenner. didi? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes. she was so hateful, that nothing could just soften her or break her down--nothing, nothing, nothing. no matter how he tried, no matter how i tried, nothing. it is a blank wall. such hatred, such venom and such hatred. it is impossible. mr. jenner. well---- mrs. de mohrenschildt. that is why it is so wonderful when he told me that she spoke nicely about him. it was a wonderful surprise. it is for the first time, really. it was a very pleasant surprise. so we have hope--maybe she is growing up. you don't have to be grown up to grow up. mr. jenner. what are your husband's political views? now, i mean political with a capital p. i don't mean democrat or republican politics. i mean political in the grand sense. mrs. de mohrenschildt. in the grand sense--i would say he is a real democrat, for democracy. but, also, you see, both of us--we don't believe that every country should have the same government, because each country--a certain government will be good for one country, and would be completely awful for another. for instance, we even don't believe in dictators, but certain countries may need that. they may live better, happier, until they grow up a little more to handle themselves. so we don't--i would say we are very, very flexible on this point, both of us--very flexible. it just depends what is the best for the people. if people are ready and able to have a complete democracy, that is the most wonderful government in the world. but it cannot be applied like a slide rule to every country right off, because some countries get lost--they still have to be guided. mr. jenner. do you regard him as a loyal american? mrs. de mohrenschildt. absolutely. he doesn't have to be here. he has friends all over the world. and--we live out more than in. why do we come back? what is the reason? just because we like it. gradually we hope we are going to live in a different part of the united states. we are aiming for the san francisco area, northern california. that is where we would love. we love swimming, the ocean. that is the reason we don't have a home of our own, and we don't want to build one, because when we want a home, we are going to do it ourselves, in the place we want to. not just to hop around. mr. jenner. would you mind returning at tomorrow morning? testimony of jeanne de mohrenschildt resumed the testimony of jeanne de mohrenschildt was taken at a.m., on april , , at maryland avenue ne., washington, d.c., by mr. albert e. jenner, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. jenner. you worked for judy bond, inc.? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes, judy bond, and nancy greer, i believe. mr. jenner. the same firm? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes. i worked simultaneously, held two jobs at the same time. mr. jenner. when was that? mrs. de mohrenschildt. it was in ; fall. that is when i returned. i couldn't get anything with my coat and suit people. i switched to dresses. mr. jenner. is the name jack rothenberg familiar to you? mrs. de mohrenschildt. i don't remember the people at judy bond. could be one of them, maybe. maybe he was with greer. mr. jenner. the records reflect that you were employed there as a designer in the fall of . mrs. de mohrenschildt. maybe it was with nancy greer. there were two--mr. littman, and another one, was another fellow, his partner. maybe that is him. i don't remember the names. mr. jenner. do you recall working for handmacher vogel in ? mrs. de mohrenschildt. you remember when i told you i flew in and designed a collection for him? and at the same time for leeds limited. the same year. mr. jenner. leeds coats, inc.? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. also , wasn't it? mrs. de mohrenschildt. it wasn't . it was . no. leeds was . judy bond was , and nancy greer was . you are right. mr. jenner. then you worked for martins in , , and , and in the fall of ? mrs. de mohrenschildt. well, you cannot call it exactly working. you see, we have in new york, they celebrate jewish holidays, days. and instead of staying home, i went and i worked in retail store, which happens to be martins. mr. jenner. martins fashion apparel store? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes; it was a store in brooklyn. i knew buyers very well. and it gave me a good outlook of what actually people want, on the floor. that was the general idea. mr. jenner. all right. i just want to be sure about the time. , , and . mrs. de mohrenschildt. it sounds more or less correct. but i don't remember for sure. mr. jenner. and the fall of . then you worked for a while for r. h. macy. mrs. de mohrenschildt. just on the same basis--just for a couple of days. mr. jenner. that is all right. i just want to know that you did. mrs. de mohrenschildt. that is right. mr. jenner. about when was that? mrs. de mohrenschildt. i don't remember. it must be before , because when i switched to my next firm, i didn't do it any more. i just couldn't combine it. mr. jenner. way back in you worked for a while for bloom and eagen. mrs. de mohrenschildt. that is right, a dress firm. mr. jenner. can you remember about when that was? you worked there as a model? mrs. de mohrenschildt. that was before i even started with leeds. mr. jenner. you worked there as a model. mrs. de mohrenschildt. that is right. mr. jenner. lombardy coat co.? mrs. de mohrenschildt. i believe it was one of my very first ones. i don't remember which one was first. just a very, very, short time, a couple of months. i remember i worked for lombardy when pearl harbor happened. that was december . i will never forget it. mr. jenner. and your employment in dallas was---- mrs. de mohrenschildt. . mr. jenner. i should take it chronologically. what was the company for which you worked in ? mrs. de mohrenschildt. nardis; nardis of dallas. mr. jenner. and that spanned about what period of time? mrs. de mohrenschildt. that spanned almost a year, starting summer . mr. jenner. all right. mrs. de mohrenschildt. i think i terminated the contract around april. mr. jenner. around april of ? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes; approximately. mr. jenner. then you worked for whom? mrs. de mohrenschildt. from then on, i moved to california, and i started to work for style garment, los angeles. mr. jenner. that would be ? mrs. de mohrenschildt. that was , and i think it lasted not too long, just until christmas. and then i had nothing at all until i had an offer from clark in the spring of . mr. jenner. and that---- mrs. de mohrenschildt. that was my first job with clark, because i worked for nardis before. mr. jenner. and you worked for clark for how long? mrs. de mohrenschildt. for clark, on and off almost until our trip, our walking trip to central america. i worked with them until . mr. jenner. that was in ? mrs. de mohrenschildt. . mr. jenner. then you had your walking trip throughout the spring and summer and fall of ? mrs. de mohrenschildt. no; it was just fall. we started october . we left dallas on october or october . mr. jenner. ? mrs. de mohrenschildt. . mr. jenner. and you returned when? mrs. de mohrenschildt. and we returned to dallas fantastically close to the same date--in the very first days of october. i worked for another company for one season, months, justin mccarthy, before our trip. mr. jenner. spring or fall? mrs. de mohrenschildt. that was summer, just before we went on our trip. i believe it was june, july, and august, september, maybe too. . i worked almost until the last day before we left on our trip. mr. jenner. and you got back in . then did you return to work when you got back? mrs. de mohrenschildt. no; i didn't, because we thought we are going to go back to haiti in weeks. the contract that my husband was negotiating was supposed to materialize within weeks. and i was stupid enough to talk about it, tell everybody. so, naturally, i could not take the job for a short time, because designing you are involved. you start and cannot drop it. and then it was dragging and dragging and dragging, and actually took a year instead of weeks to materialize the whole thing. mr. jenner. but it did eventually materialize? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes; fortunately it did. because i was badly hurt by it, and so was he, because everybody knew he is going to go off on this, and he couldn't do very much, either. mr. jenner. and---- mrs. de mohrenschildt. for me it was really drastic. mr. jenner. but you went to work--you did return to work before you went to haiti? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes; but a short time. i just did it because we needed to do it. mr. jenner. what did you do? mrs. de mohrenschildt. millinery. i was working in the millinery department, sanger and harris, preston center, dallas. mr. jenner. preston center? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes; preston center store. mr. jenner. and you worked in the millinery department until just before---- mrs. de mohrenschildt. before we left for the east, before we made a trip east. and we left april. we drove off from dallas. nineteenth of april we left dallas. instead of staying a week or days as we planned, because george had so much trouble with his little girl, and then he was also in washington. we returned almost at the last days of may. i had days to pack the whole house, and store the furniture, and separate the clothes, and god knows--we almost went crazy, you know. we did it all in days. and then we drove back to miami, because we had to ship a car. grace line wasn't going to haiti any more. so we drove to miami, and we flew over, and our car came over later on, on a boat, with our clothes, with everything. mr. jenner. from the time you left for haiti from miami, which, i think, was on the second of june---- mrs. de mohrenschildt. we arrived june. oh, yes; that is right. mr. jenner. june , have you been back to the united states other than this trip you have now made to testify? mrs. de mohrenschildt. no; we have been a couple of days in san juan about days ago. that is as close as we came to the united states. in fact, we didn't leave the country at all. mr. jenner. that applies to your husband? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes; absolutely. mr. jenner. do you recall the period of time when your present husband was on a mission for the international cooperation administration in yugoslavia? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. did you join him there? mrs. de mohrenschildt. i joined him there. i forgot exactly the date. right after my collection was opened, right after i finished designing--i joined him--it was supposed to be only weeks, it was my vacation. but within this time these letters were sent out by my husband. i had a telegram something happened, a very mild excuse, and they have somebody else. of course, when i returned, i went back with this firm again. but at that particular time i lost the job. mr. jenner. you joined him in yugoslavia. what town was that? mrs. de mohrenschildt. zagreb. mr. jenner. and you were with him in zagreb how long? mrs. de mohrenschildt. i don't remember exactly, but maybe a week or days. it wasn't very long. he was switched from one area to another. he worked for one company, then he was switched to another company. and then we went to the seashore, which is exactly what we wanted. it was petrovaz, a little town. mr. jenner. and he remained there, and you remained there how long? mrs. de mohrenschildt. in petrovaz? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. de mohrenschildt. i think it was a few weeks or so. then he had time for a vacation, and we moved a little north, to milicher. that was an old king's palace converted into a hotel. did he tell you they had been shooting at us in yugoslavia? mr. jenner. when you were at the shore? yes; he said something about that. but i would like to have you tell me about it. mrs. de mohrenschildt. well, we don't like public beaches. we like to be by ourselves, and we like real wild nature--nothing that already will be prepared for us. so we took--in the morning we took a walk in the mountains. we climbed the mountains. in the afternoon we took a canoe and just rowed along the coast. and it was beautiful, an absolutely beautiful coast--the most beautiful spot in the world. and the mountains--we saw something that looked like a fortification. i noticed a ladder standing there. so we were rowing and pointing to it. and all of a sudden we hear shots. we thought it was old fortifications from italian time, or whatever they were. but they were actually their fortifications and they thought we were interested in it. they were pointing a rifle at us and shooting, and just doing this, go away further. and we had to really go very far out in the sea. he didn't want to. he said, "at least if they shoot at us, i want to do something to them--this way we are just lost at sea. nobody would know a single thing happened to us." he didn't want to row out. mr. jenner. who is obnoxious? mrs. de mohrenschildt. my husband. i said that is silly, i don't want to be shot like a chicken. go out to the sea and we will go back to the shore. i want to make a complaint. and we rowed out. he rowed out--his bottom was raw beefsteak, on the slippery boards of the boat. the current was very strong, against us, and all the way out in the sea it was very difficult. so when we came back he talked to some people over there. they said, "they shoot at us, too. if accidentally you wander too close to brioni, the villa where tito lives--they shoot at us, too." that wasn't enough. we went another day again, and we started rowing around, and we saw a little island. we left the canoe. mr. jenner. canoe or rowboat? mrs. de mohrenschildt. this was a canoe. the first time was a rowboat. so we were swimming and all of a sudden he took my photograph in front of a beautiful cave, and i was taking his photograph standing in the water in front of another cave. it was beautiful--just like a curtain drape. and all of a sudden, boom, the cannon shot, about a yard from me in the water. so, of course, we went right under the water in the cave and we were sitting there--what are we going to do? we are quite far, an hour or so from our hotel in a canoe. we thought, well, they shot at us, they probably think something, they are going to come and talk with us. so we are sitting there waiting for them to come to talk to us, but nobody came. so we sat for a couple of hours. finally, we got disgusted. so we dived in, swam a little, behind the rocks, we got out on the seashore. somebody gave us a ride back to the hotel. and this time he really got angry. he made complaint to the government, and some of their officials came over to discuss it, and said that was just unintentional, it was another accident. the little island we thought was completely empty, not a soul on it, they had fortification on that island. so that is what happened to us in yugoslavia. when george told me the american people thought he was making sketches of something, i said i can understand the yugoslavs thinking such things, but i said i couldn't understand about the united states government. mr. jenner. well, they don't know at the time. they just see somebody doing some sketching. mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes; just like in haiti, every day--he went for a walk in the mountains, sometimes with me, sometimes with nero. mr. jenner. nero is one of your pups? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes; he is the one that made the trip. so, of course, haitians--they almost called him longaron--that is a werewolf, lougrow. so that could get him in trouble, too. but haitians are very mild people. they just enjoyed it. mr. jenner. when did you leave europe on that occasion? mrs. de mohrenschildt. when-- ? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. de mohrenschildt. i cannot tell you exactly. but it was in the fall. mr. jenner. did you both return to the united states together? mrs. de mohrenschildt. oh, no; he stayed there for quite a while. he stayed there much longer. he returned in november, because i remember right after he returned clark was in new york. mr. jenner. that is i. clark? mrs. de mohrenschildt. and in fact he went with me to meet him at the airport, and we talked and talked and talked, and they talked me into going back to texas, which i wanted anyway. so then we returned together to texas. we went to visit his brother first, in dartmouth. mr. jenner. at hanover, n.h.? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes; and then we drove slowly--we drove through florida, because i had never been in florida, never saw it--st. augustine. we have a convertible car always, so we like to drive close to the sea, so we can stop and bait. and then through pensacola, through new orleans. we stopped in new orleans, with his old, old friends, the crumps, but they are dead now, i believe. they have tremendous gardenia gardens there. we arrived thanksgiving day at dallas. mr. jenner. of what year? mrs. de mohrenschildt. it was ; still . mr. jenner. now, do you recall your husband making a trip to ghana? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes; he did. i believe it was in , in late spring. mr. jenner. and---- mrs. de mohrenschildt. not for long. it was about weeks or so. mr. jenner. that was for what purpose? what did you understand it to be for? mrs. de mohrenschildt. well, to make--he was working for some people, for the company, to find out if there is any possibilities for oil, and he made some reports. in fact, his reports were printed even in the national geographic. he did very good research. and the things he said now came true. they discovered a tremendous amount of oil in nigeria. mr. jenner. nigeria and ghana, are they the same? mrs. de mohrenschildt. they are not the same, but they are close. he was in ghana, togoland, and nigeria. you see, you can trace the lines throughout the whole world by the formations. it is a fascinating business. if it wouldn't be too late for me, i would switch to that now. it is a fantastic business. mr. jenner. it is fantastic? mrs. de mohrenschildt. if you love nature. otherwise, it is no fun at all. mr. jenner. well---- mrs. de mohrenschildt. in fact, i try to help him whenever i can. i draw maps. just now i made for him some maps in the dominican republic about this nickel mine and everything. he couldn't have it photostated. they were too old. so i sit down and draw it any time i can, because i really love that. mr. jenner. tell us without too much elaboration particularly about your trip down through mexico and central america. mrs. de mohrenschildt. well, i tell you, it is a trip i will never forget, as long as we live. and i don't think we ever had a more exciting, wonderful time, in spite that we almost died a few times, and in spite that some days it was so difficult that we were walking almost like in a daze, because we didn't know what will happen to us. of course, we could endure a trip like that because we had a tragedy with george's little boy. so we didn't care what will happen to us--we get killed or not killed--the only thing we worry about nero being an orphan if something happen to us. but it was absolutely fantastic, because we walked through little trails, old camino reales, old spanish trails. and they planned it so well, at the end of each day we always found water. we never carried water, because the poor mule was already overloaded. we always took water supply in the afternoon. and we also tried to buy his corn in the afternoon, his dinner. mr. jenner. the mule? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes; it is just for him like gasoline, the corn. like high octane gas. and it took us about - / months through mexico. then it was guatemala, salvador. it really was very interesting. mr. jenner. costa rica? mrs. de mohrenschildt. not yet. after salvador, we were trying to cross by boat directly to nicaragua, because we didn't want to make that horrible big corner in honduras, but we couldn't. so we had to go through honduras and then nicaragua, costa rica, panama. and then we were planning to spend another year and go all the way to chile. and we would. we were so tough by then, nothing could hurt us. we were thin like rails. and george has never been that thin in his life. he was in good physical shape. but the torrential rains--we were almost swept out a couple of times. and we would have to wait months in panama in order to proceed. we couldn't take that much time from our life, from our work. so i talked him into going to haiti. he was going to return to dallas. and i didn't want to. mr. jenner. before you get to haiti--was that purely a business trip--i mean a pleasure trip? mrs. de mohrenschildt. it was pleasure trip plus he collected a lot of minerals on the way. and he sent them--he had been sending them to be safe. and they were all lost. a tremendous amount of minerals. we found mercury, such perfection of samples that you never could see such perfect crystallization. and they are all gone, all lost. but we do have the names and addresses of people and villages where we have it, and then we discovered some pyramids which, when we have time to take off, we are going, of course, to fly there and work on it, because it is fascinating. we couldn't take much time for anything, because we only had months' visa through mexico. mr. jenner. your visa in mexico permitted you to stay there months? mrs. de mohrenschildt. a tourist visa, months. we were up on the border--that means we have to fly to mexico city to extend it, it would be too much trouble. we were sort of in a hurry. but in guatemala we were rewarded for the whole trip. there was a volcano erupting. hakaia, and it was absolutely fantastic. can you imagine what is an erupting volcano? i was dreaming about that since i was this big, that i want to see a volcano, i want to look in the crater. so we climbed every volcano. and this one was erupting. the lava was gushing down. we have photographs and movies. i am from the red lava a yard away, just burning. and poor little nero--my hair is standing on my head from the heat. it was a fascinating sight. then we walked in lava, and it was all smoking like that. mr. jenner. now, was there any consideration other than you have indicated, any purpose--i will put it that way--of your trip other than you have indicated? mrs. de mohrenschildt. no. mr. jenner. did it have any connection with any government, any agency, or any government? mrs. de mohrenschildt. not at all. mr. jenner. or have any political aspects whatsoever? mrs. de mohrenschildt. i know you have to ask these questions, but there was none at all, absolutely none. mr. jenner. now, while you were making your trip down through mexico and the central american countries, the bay of pigs invasion occurred, did it not? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes. but we learned about it much later. mr. jenner. excuse me. were you aware of the bay of pigs invasion in advance? mrs. de mohrenschildt. advance? we were not even aware at the time of it. mr. jenner. you were not? mrs. de mohrenschildt. no. but we noticed something very funny. we noticed some young people running around with little tiny hats. they looked like american boys. and then when we--we had---- mr. jenner. where was that? mrs. de mohrenschildt. in guatemala city. we have all our mail always sent to the american embassy, in each country, and then as we arrived, asked them to hold it. they have been wonderful about it. so the minute we arrived to the city--we leave our mule and go right away to the embassy to pick up our mail. and it was very funny. there was such a commotion, such confusion in the american embassy, we just remarked about it. they were running around, busy, busy. i forgot the name of the american consul. he was on the phone all the time, such a confusion was going on. so we noticed that. and we noticed those funny looking boys running around. i thought they were canadian boys. and later on we learned that there was an invasion. so maybe that was the people that were involved in it. mr. jenner. that is all you know about the bay of pigs invasion? mrs. de mohrenschildt. that is all we know about it. mr. jenner. have you ever been in cuba? mrs. de mohrenschildt. no. mr. jenner. there was an occasion, was there not, when your husband and you were in mexico that there was a russian mission? mrs. de mohrenschildt. mikoyan? mr. jenner. when was that? mrs. de mohrenschildt. that was exactly the time when alexandra eloped. we were two weeks in mexico city. george was on business. and there was also a russian exhibit which we missed in new york. mr. jenner. what was the time? mrs. de mohrenschildt. do you have a date when she eloped--sometime in november. mr. jenner. what year? mrs. de mohrenschildt. i am trying to get to the year now. must be. i think it was . mr. jenner. wait a minute. mrs. de mohrenschildt. i believe it was november , to my best belief. i cannot be sure. chronologically, it must be around there. mr. jenner. you tell me about the incident and i will find the date. mrs. de mohrenschildt. it was very simple. we had dinner with the presidential pilot and some other friends. mr. jenner. that is the pilot of the president of mexico? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes. captain gordunio nounio. i can't spell the name. can we just say presidential pilot? mr. jenner. whenever you say anything, it gets on the record. now, you have to tell us how to spell it. spell it phonetically, as you understand it. mrs. de mohrenschildt. g-o-r-d-u-n-i-o n-o-u-n-i-o. they were giving him--the mexicans were giving him a big farewell reception sort of party at the airport. and, of course, it was guarded, and nobody could get in there. he said, would you like to see mikoyan? i said, of course i would. mr. jenner. who said that? mrs. de mohrenschildt. the pilot. i said, of course, we would like to see him. it would be a lot of fun to see somebody from real russia, not just the immigrants. so then george wanted to go, too, to start with. and i said, "you better don't go, because it will be misinterpreted, it can be misinterpreted. if i go, they know very well i cannot do any harm, but if you go it may hurt you businesswise." people in texas are very narrow-minded. so i went in the morning. he picked me up at the hotel. we went to that reception. i did it out of sheer curiosity. i wanted to see the crowd, i wanted to see the people, i was looking at women. it was, of course, pathetic. women don't even look like women. mr. jenner. who are you talking about? mrs. de mohrenschildt. the russian women, at the reception. the russians are supposed to be good-looking people. they were not even good looking. there was only one man that was good looking. he was in some kind of uniform. i don't know what his rank or what it is, because i don't know the uniforms. there was only one handsome man in the whole tremendous crowd. and then we went all the way to the plane. i was with the captain, and he was very close--very good friend of mikoyan. we came over. i didn't say one word in russian all the time, i was speaking english. and then we came over to the plane. mr. jenner. you went out to the airport? mrs. de mohrenschildt. to the airport, when he was already leaving, after making all the speeches and everything. we went with the captain to say goodbye to mikoyan, at the plane. they had the russian plane standing there, the cameras, tv's. and he introduced me to mikoyan, this is my friend señora de mohrenschildt. and i take his hand and said---- mr. jenner. you spoke in russian? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes, i told him in russian, how are you, tovarish mikoyan. and he was so shocked, because i didn't look like a russian, i looked like a fashion plate, and spoke english all the time. and all of a sudden, i deliberately--it was sort of a prank. he almost fainted. it was fantastic. i didn't make any secrets. i told about it in dallas to everybody. mr. jenner. well, that was purely an adventure? mrs. de mohrenschildt. oh, sure. it was just a prank, just for fun. mr. jenner. i see. you had no prior association with mr. mikoyan, or any member of the russian mission when you went to mexico--you had not anticipated the presence of the russian mission? mrs. de mohrenschildt. we didn't know that they were there, absolutely. george went on his business. it just happened to be that they had this exhibit there, and it happens to be that mikoyan was there--i think they were offering a lot of money to the mexican government, and the mexican government refused it. they didn't take it. but they have been on friendly terms, they didn't quarrel about it--they just didn't accept it, they didn't accept his proposal. and we happened to know about it because we had this friend, the presidential pilot. mr. jenner. i see. all right. we have obtained, either from you or from your husband, the marriage date of alexandra. mrs. de mohrenschildt. that must be november . mr. jenner. all right. mrs. de mohrenschildt. that happened within those weeks we were in mexico city. mr. jenner. you went from panama to haiti? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes. we were trying to go by boat. we went to colon, to get the boat. there was no boat. so we had to fly. mr. jenner. you flew to haiti? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. what was the purpose of that visit to haiti? mrs. de mohrenschildt. the main purpose was to rest, and another purpose was to see a very, very old friend of my husband's father, -year-old man that according to his letters to george, he loved him like a son, and he had the same feelings to me. so i told george, if we don't go now, we might never see him. mr. jenner. what was his name? mrs. de mohrenschildt. michael breitman. and he died within the next year. mr. jenner. but that was--that visit to haiti at that time was to visit this gentleman? mrs. de mohrenschildt. and to rest. mr. jenner. from your long, arduous trip through central america? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. you then returned to the united states? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. by boat? mrs. de mohrenschildt. by boat, by lykes line. mr. jenner. and your harbor was what--st. charles, or lake charles? mrs. de mohrenschildt. i think it is lake charles. they changed in the last month. they never know which port. we were met by friends over there, the savages. mr. jenner. and the mitchells? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes. and we crossed straight to their house, stayed with them a few days. then a friend of ours loaned us a car and we drove to dallas. and then he came over and picked up the car. mr. jenner. your friend---- mrs. de mohrenschildt. from houston. we have quite a few friends in houston. mr. jenner. now, i am going to, in a moment, bring you to the period when you met the oswalds. mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. but i want you to tell me first, if you will, slowly, the nature of the russian colony in dallas at that time. now, as i understand it, you met the oswalds in the summer of . mrs. de mohrenschildt. in the late summer. mr. jenner. there was a small russian colony? mrs. de mohrenschildt. you see, i wouldn't classify it as a colony. there are some odds-and-ends russian people. mr. jenner. i am using a reference to identify a more or less heterogeneous group of people in dallas who had a measure of common interests arising out of the fact that either they or their parents had been born or had a relatively immediate contact with russia. mrs. de mohrenschildt. well, you see, there are two types of russian people there--some that came in after the revolution, and there are some new ones that escaped during the second world war, from germany. mr. jenner. you are now telling me about this situation in dallas, are you not? mrs. de mohrenschildt. i am trying to classify who was before and who came in later. mr. jenner. but you are telling me about people in dallas? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. all right. go ahead. mrs. de mohrenschildt. from what i know, the latest arrivals to the united states was, of course--marina was, and i think there was another one, declan ford. mr. jenner. mrs. declan ford? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes. she was on what's my life, or something, a dramatic story. she married an american boy, and he rescued her, and so on and so forth. they came over and lived in dallas. his name was skotnicki, and then they divorced. i think he was polish. he was a nice fellow, but he was too anxious to make too much money, so the marriage broke up. mr. jenner. there were at this time in dallas some people of russian derivation. some had come directly from russia--that is, in the sense that they were caught up in the vortex of the second world war. mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. the germans invaded russia. they were prisoners, civil prisoners. mrs. de mohrenschildt. her story is something like that. mr. jenner. taken by the germans and brought to germany, and when the war ended, they met american boys, and married them. mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes; but that is the only one i know. i don't know of anybody else. mr. jenner. then others had escaped russia or poland? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes. for instance, one of them--she was never even in russia--that type of russian colony. she was married to an american man. mr. jenner. well, this is a group that had common interests--interested in each other? mrs. de mohrenschildt. sometimes yes, sometimes no. of course, they all criticize each other. some people were closer, some people were further apart. they were not exactly all friends--i will put it that way. mr. jenner. let's see--you had been there--well, you were off and on commencing in , and then relatively permanently commencing in . mrs. de mohrenschildt. , . mr. jenner. now, as people came to dallas, that is persons with this history, did you people--and i don't mean just you alone, but i am talking about the whole group--become interested in them, seek to meet them, become acquainted? mrs. de mohrenschildt. well, if anybody heard that there was all of a sudden a new russian somewhere, there was, naturally, interest in people to know who they are, where they are from, what kind of people they are. and, of course, if they were destitute or something--and none of them were really--only marina was--then we helped them. but there were no organizations, no particular organizations to help or wait for them to come in, because there was no necessity. mr. jenner. now, were you generally--were you advised normally in advance that somebody new was coming? mrs. de mohrenschildt. no. in fact, they were talking about marina for months to us. i said, after all, we should really meet that young girl. they were talking for a couple of months. mr. jenner. who? mrs. de mohrenschildt. well, we found out about her actually through, i believe, george bouhe. i think george probably told you the name. mr. jenner. what about max clark? mrs. de mohrenschildt. max clark, too, because they lived in fort worth. max clark and gali clark. and actually george bouhe was very active. he is an old busybody, and he loves to do things, charity things. he is the one that organizes things like that. so he said he even had a fund for them--the people would give money--because he gave money to pay for her teeth, you know, everything that was necessary. mr. jenner. mr. bouhe did give you money---- mrs. de mohrenschildt. to pay for her dentist. mr. jenner. and do you remember how much that was? mrs. de mohrenschildt. oh, it wasn't very much--maybe $ ; something like that. mr. jenner. did you receive, also, some money from george bouhe for anything else with respect to the oswalds? mrs. de mohrenschildt. i don't believe so. mr. jenner. now, i take it from what you have said, that you were wholly unadvised, you and your husband, that marina and lee were coming to the fort worth-dallas area before they came. you knew nothing about it? mrs. de mohrenschildt. nothing at all. mr. jenner. now---- mrs. de mohrenschildt. i don't even know when they came. mr. jenner. had you heard anything about them at all, that he had been in russia? mrs. de mohrenschildt. before? mr. jenner. before, and then had married her, and come back, he attempted to defect? mrs. de mohrenschildt. no; nothing at all--in spite that it was in some press somewhere--i believe it was printed. mr. jenner. but you didn't see it? mrs. de mohrenschildt. never saw it. never had no idea. mr. jenner. had there been any discussion among you people, any of you--bouhe, clark, and meller, voshinins, mamantov, gravitis, dymitruk, raigorodsky---- mrs. de mohrenschildt. that is a character--dymitruk was also imported recently. i think after we were there. mr. jenner. what do you mean imported? mrs. de mohrenschildt. i mean he arrived--i call him imported. he was really a sad sack. mr. jenner. he was the husband of lydia dymitruk? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. i will ask you about her. mrs. de mohrenschildt. but i know very little about them. mr. jenner. it may be important to us that you don't. but the part i want to emphasize here is--if it is the truth--i don't want to put any words in your mouth--that you had no advance notice that either of these people were coming, and you knew nothing whatsoever about them, never heard anything? mrs. de mohrenschildt. absolutely. mr. jenner. and was that generally true of all these people? mrs. de mohrenschildt. from what we know; yes. i don't think anybody knew anything at all. all of a sudden they arrived on the horizon. and, actually, who discovered them for the first time, i don't even know that. mr. jenner. all right. mrs. de mohrenschildt. i cannot even tell. i would like to know, myself, now, how it came about. mr. jenner. they were brought to your attention? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. and your recollection is it was george bouhe? mrs. de mohrenschildt. my recollection is that he finally--we were sort of ashamed of ourselves that we still didn't meet her, and we still didn't do anything, you know, for that girl. so, finally--i don't remember how, but either we drove, or whether they brought her to us for the first time. that is how it happened. mr. jenner. and this was in the late summer of ? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes. and i told him, bouhe, at that particular time, we were financially not very well off, and i could not contribute any money, but i had time and a car, and i could take the baby to the clinic, and i could take her with her teeth, and anything of that sort i would be glad to do. mr. jenner. we might digress a moment. in the summer of you and your husband were not as financially affluent as you had been? mrs. de mohrenschildt. well, we were draining pretty well, because for a year we didn't make any money, on our trip. mr. jenner. i am not criticizing. all i am doing is seeking the facts. mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes, yes. mr. jenner. well---- mrs. de mohrenschildt. not enough to be charitable. mr. jenner. by the way, your husband, he is a fine geologist and petroleum engineer. he is not a man who likes to concentrate on business, finances, is he? mrs. de mohrenschildt. well, i would say he is pretty good with money. i am the one--i made money too easily, so i squandered money. he doesn't. but you see i always had a steady income. he doesn't have a steady income. he has an assignment for or weeks, he has very good money for it, and then we never know when it is going to come in. he may have within a year two or three fantastic things--go to ghana, go somewhere else, and he makes quite a lot of money. but then maybe a year that he has nothing at all coming in. so he learned when he has something to hold onto it. mr. jenner. so there were periods when his financial situation was good, so he was high? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes. that is how we took our trip, because we were very fortunate before our trip--he had an assignment in ghana, and he made some money, and i was making very good money, so we thought we can afford it. besides he almost lost his mind. we had to go on that trip. mr. jenner. then there were valleys, financially, in which you were not as affluent? mrs. de mohrenschildt. of course. mr. jenner. but you folks were at no time wealthy people? mrs. de mohrenschildt. real wealthy, no. mr. jenner. you made---- mrs. de mohrenschildt. i could have been if i saved the money, but i didn't. mr. jenner. you made a comfortable living, and that is about it? mrs. de mohrenschildt. that is it. mr. jenner. but at this particular time, you were not in a position to assist the oswalds financially in any material sense? mrs. de mohrenschildt. exactly; none at all. mr. jenner. but you were in a position that you could afford them time? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. and attention? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes. not them--actually with marina, because we couldn't do much for oswald--just talk to a couple of people about him, and maybe get him a job. but even the job he had--i don't know who got it--i think it was an agency that got him the job he had. mr. jenner. at leslie welding? mrs. de mohrenschildt. i don't know the name of the firm. he worked in a darkroom. mr. jenner. that was later. mrs. de mohrenschildt. i don't even know the name of it. mr. jenner. you are not clear in your mind, i take it, that when you first met the oswalds; you don't know whether you went to their home or---- mrs. de mohrenschildt. i don't remember. i really don't remember. and, believe me, i had enough time to think about it. i was trying to remember every little detail that can be useful. i cannot still remember exactly how it came about--whether they were brought to our house. i don't think we drove and got them for the first time. maybe we took them back, you know, to fort worth. it could be. i don't know. of course, they had the baby with them. they always had to bring the baby--couldn't leave the baby with anyone. mr. jenner. but in due course you did enter their home in fort worth? mrs. de mohrenschildt. i never entered their home in fort worth. george, i think, did once. george walked in, because lee was asleep, i think, when we brought marina--so he maybe walked in the house--because he went out to the door. i never did. they lived somewhere--there was a tremendous store, montgomery ward or something. mr. jenner. sears? mrs. de mohrenschildt. no; i think it was montgomery ward. i don't remember. that is where they lived. it was a miserable-looking house. that is what i saw. a wooden building. mr. jenner. you found them to be in destitute circumstances, did you? mrs. de mohrenschildt. well, i wouldn't say they were completely starving, but they were quite miserable--quite, quite miserable, you know. even if they were not destitute, the personality that lee had would make anybody miserable to live with. mr. jenner. all right. tell us about lee oswald. mrs. de mohrenschildt. what i think of the fellow? mr. jenner. your impressions of him, what you thought of him. mrs. de mohrenschildt. disagreeable. he was very, very disagreeable, and disappointed. he is like a puppy dog that everybody kicked. and he was sort of withdrawn within himself. and his greatest objection was that people helped them too much, they were showering things on marina. marina had a hundred dresses given to her. the baby had a crib. my daughter didn't have it when i came to the united states, and i didn't have one-hundredth of what marina had, because i didn't know anybody, and i didn't want to know anybody when i came over. i was in such circumstances. so, anyway, he objected to that lavish help, because marina was throwing it into his face. mr. jenner. she was? mrs. de mohrenschildt. absolutely--see people, how nice they are? and she is always telling me--the people are nice, giving all these things, and he is insulting them for it. he was offensive with the people. and i can understand why, and maybe i was the only one that understood him, while he was offensive, because that hurt him. he could never give her what the people were showering on her. so that was very difficult for him, no matter how hard he worked--and he worked very hard. he worked overtime, he used to come in at o'clock, she said, at night, and when he come home, he started reading again. so he was not running around. he didn't drink, he didn't smoke. he was just hard working, but a very difficult personality. and usually offensive at people because people had an offensive attitude to him. i don't think he was offensive for that, because of the things we did, he could have killed us. mr. jenner. what did you do? mrs. de mohrenschildt. well, you see, he mistreated his wife physically. we saw her with a black eye once. mr. jenner. and did you talk to him and to her about it? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes; we did. i called him just like our own kids, and set them down, and i said, "listen, you have to grow up, you cannot live like that. this is not a country that permits such things to happen. if you love each other, behave. if you cannot live with each other peacefully, without all this awful behavior, you should separate, and see, maybe you really don't love each other." marina was, of course, afraid she will be left all alone, if she separate from oswald--what is she going to do? she doesn't know the language, she had nobody to turn to. i understand they didn't get along with oswald's family. mr. jenner. now, this is what you learned in talking with them? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes, yes; through them actually, by facing them. mr. jenner. i want you to identify your sources of information. mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes, yes. mr. jenner. you learned through marina and oswald, also, that they didn't get along well with their---- mrs. de mohrenschildt. i cannot say through them, because maybe people talked about it, you know. she couldn't live in her sister-in-law's home, they didn't get along. and i understand that later on somebody mentioned that the reason was that she was just too lazy. she slept in the morning. mr. jenner. what was your impression? mrs. de mohrenschildt. she is lazy. you see, there are people that actually are no good, but still they have something very nice about them, that you cannot really be furious with them or mad, you really can't. she is lazy, and i know it, because she stayed once overnight. mr. jenner. where? at your home? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes; with the baby. and i tell you--if i stay with somebody overnight, i will jump up the first thing in the morning, see what i can do to help, knowing i will be doing everything. she didn't. she slept. i actually had to waken her up. she did the same thing--she stayed in our daughter's home overnight. because when her teeth were pulled, she was not in condition to go back. she was the same way--very lazy. and i just couldn't understand it--a young person. maybe she was ill. we talked about it--maybe we have just too much energy. for a young girl to sleep late, and not to be active. the proof of her laziness is that she didn't do much about learning english, in spite i gave her the records, and we gave her one of our little phonographs. i had beautiful records to learn english--i bought them in new york when i arrived. mr. jenner. is it that she was lazy that she didn't pursue learning english, or did oswald object to her learning english? mrs. de mohrenschildt. according to her oswald objected, and he also told us himself that he wants to speak with her in russian, because he doesn't want to forget russian. but then we got onto oswald. mr. jenner. tell me about it now. mrs. de mohrenschildt. he didn't want to forget his russian. that was his reason--not to let his wife learn english--because she was the only person he could speak russian to. mr. jenner. he could still speak russian to her, even though she learned english, couldn't he? mrs. de mohrenschildt. of course, that is what we told him. we said, "you are crippling her, she has to learn english. she cannot live in this country without the language, she cannot do anything." he was strange in many, many ways. but he never appeared to be violent or anything. he was a little violent once, when we came to the point that we said we are taking your wife and child away. that is the only time he showed real nastiness. mr. jenner. please. you reached the point where you and your husband took marina and the child out of the home and away from oswald against his objections. mrs. de mohrenschildt. against his objections. actually, we talked him into doing it peacefully. mr. jenner. and where did you take marina and june? mrs. de mohrenschildt. we took marina and june to the house of meller. mr. jenner. anna meller? mrs. de mohrenschildt. anna meller, yes. very poor people--they put the baby's crib right in the dining room and everything. that is how nice people were, trying to help her. that was supposed to be temporary until we find another place where she could live with somebody for or months. we were trying to put her with ford, with declan ford's wife, because she had a big house, and she had a newborn baby. but she is not a very easygoing person. she refused. i was furious with her that she refused, because she really could take marina very nicely. and i believe finally she was talked into it, and she had marina maybe for a little while with her. i don't know. i am not sure. mr. jenner. in october or november? mrs. de mohrenschildt. maybe, yes. i don't even know. mr. jenner. but why did you take marina from the home? mrs. de mohrenschildt. because he was beating her, and we didn't think it was right. we thought that a separation for them--they will decide whether they really love each other, they cannot live without each other, or they forget about each other. but that was absolutely useless to continue to live the way they were. in fact, bouhe had the same idea, but he was afraid to do it. he was always afraid of lee. naturally, being a bachelor--perhaps, bouhe's type of person is afraid of his own shadow--there are people like that. mr. jenner. well, he is an older man. mrs. de mohrenschildt. i think he saw a lot in his life, maybe. mr. jenner. he is not a man of great physical stature, like your husband? mrs. de mohrenschildt. that is it. lots of things contribute to the personality. mr. jenner. now, mrs. de mohrenschildt, you had discussions with both marina and lee about their difficulties? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes; we had them at the same time, in the same room. mr. jenner. now, what were the reasons that she advanced as to any--as to her dissatisfaction? mrs. de mohrenschildt. what was the reasons what? mr. jenner. what were the reasons she said why she was dissatisfied with him? mrs. de mohrenschildt. oh, there was quite a few reasons. and i tell you--it was strange for me to hear from a young girl like that to speak so, how you say it--so boldy, about sex, for instance. i was shocked by it, you know--because in my times, even i was twice as old as she. mr. jenner. will you please tell me what she said? mrs. de mohrenschildt. well, she said her husband doesn't satisfy her. she just--and he is just too busy with his things, he doesn't pay enough attention to her. mr. jenner. that was one reason? mrs. de mohrenschildt. that is one of the main reasons, yes. and the second reason, he was cruel with her--for instance, she likes to smoke, and he would forbid her to smoke. any little argument or something--like once something--she didn't fill his bathtub, he beat her for it. and, also, he didn't like for her to have a drink of wine. she liked wine very much. she wasn't a drunk or anything, but she likes to drink wine. and he would object to that, too. and that was their main disagreements. and then with the baby, he was absolutely fanatical about the child. he loved that child. you should see him looking at the child, he just changed completely. he thought that she was not too good with the child. the child was already spoiled to no end. every time the child makes a noise, she picked it up. if she is not there in a second to pick the child up, lee is after her--why is the baby crying? and the baby is extremely difficult, because it doesn't know anybody but her or lee. nobody could pick her up. and she is constantly with her. she had the child with her all the time, from our observations. she just couldn't take it. it was very, very difficult. and still at the same time, she didn't do much to free herself from it. mr. jenner. what were marina's personal habits? was she clean and neat? did she keep her home clean and neat? or did her laziness spill over into those areas? mrs. de mohrenschildt. well, it was halfway, because it seems to be neat, and still not very--she was not a woman to arrange the home or make a home. i don't think so. and i don't know enough about it, because they had so few things, and they were so poor. so what can you make a home out of, nothing. you cannot really judge. you cannot. i am sure if she has things to do it with, i am sure she will. at that particular time, she could not. she didn't have enough things to make a home. the apartments they were living in in dallas were miserable, very, very poor. mr. jenner. give me your opinion of---- mrs. de mohrenschildt. one thing i want to tell you. when they were planning to move in dallas, from fort worth, when i took her--the baby to the clinic, i was trying to find for them a little apartment somewhere closer to us, within the same area, university park, or somewhere, knowing that i cannot race every time she needs something with the car to help them. lee insisted for some particular reason to live very, very far from everybody, from all these people. they lived in oak cliff--god knows where from us. maybe he didn't want it because he didn't want other people to put their nose in his home. i don't think he had anything against us because we were with marina. but i don't think he liked very much that bouhe was showering her with things, and the other people give her so many things. maybe that is why. why did he live so far? we were very mad about it, too. i said, "for god sakes, if we are to help them, i cannot race to oak cliff to help them with this or that"--if she had to go to the doctor. why wouldn't they take a little place near us, it will be much easier for me to help her. he had some reasons to live far away. i don't know if anybody else mentioned that to you. that was everybody's impression. for some particular reason, he moved all the way out. mr. jenner. tell me of her personality. mrs. de mohrenschildt. i think i told you as much as i can. at the same time, in spite she is lazy--well, it is her upbringing, that is the way she was brought up. but she was a very, very pleasant girl. and she loved life, and she loved the united states, absolutely. we would drive on the streets, she would just--oh, that is the united states. that is maybe why i like her, because she give me the impression she felt like i felt when i came in. she said she was always dreaming to come to the united states. she looked at those pictures with big, big houses and everything. did i tell you how she met oswald, according to her? mr. jenner. what did she say? mrs. de mohrenschildt. it was in the town of minsk. there was some kind of apartment houses, supposed to be very, very good. and she saw that house and thought, "how wonderful if i just go there to visit in that apartment house." and lee happened to be living there. and i think lee was sick. and she sort of nursed him out, or something like that. that is how they met. and i don't know--but it is very possible that she was very much influential in making them come back. mr. jenner. come to the united states? mrs. de mohrenschildt. come to the united states. mr. jenner. that was the impression you obtained from her? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes, yes. on the other hand, he was also disappointed. he wasn't as excited as he was when he went over there, from the impressions we get from him. mr. jenner. from your contacts with him, you had the impression he had been disappointed in russia? mrs. de mohrenschildt. i asked him, "why did you come back, if you were such a brave big hero and you threw the passport?" and as she told me, "in the american ambassador's face in moscow." he said, "here is your passport, now i am going to be a soviet citizen." and i said, "how come you are back?" he said, "i didn't find what i was looking for." mr. jenner. oswald said that? mrs. de mohrenschildt. that was oswald's answer. "i didn't find what i was looking for." so, to me, the answer was the stupid kid decided to be obnoxious, and thinking he was a big hero went over there, and learned the hard way, burned himself, and decided to come back, and our government was wonderful to help him at the time. and he was very conscientious about paying the debt, very conscientious. he paid it back, i think, the first thing, out of the first salary, in spite how hard it was for them to live. those are the things. and i don't know of anybody saying anything good about him. and that made me a little mad. nobody said anything good about him. he had a lot of good qualities. he had a lot of terrible qualities, but certainly to compare him with that horrible ruby--oswald had a lot of good qualities. and if people would be kinder to him, maybe, you know--maybe he wouldn't be driven to be so, and wouldn't do anything like that. i don't know whether he did or not, anyway. but he would not be involved in it. but i have the impression that he was just pushed, pushed, pushed, and she was probably nagging, nagging, nagging. mr. jenner. you found her to be a nagger? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes; oh, yes; she ribbed him even in front of us. mr. jenner. she did? mrs. de mohrenschildt. she did. she ribbed him so, that if i would ever speak to my husband that way we would not last long. i would not do it. because i could see---- mr. jenner. what did she say? you see---- mrs. de mohrenschildt. oh, big hero, or look at that big shot, something like that. mr. jenner. when you say she ribbed him in front of us, that doesn't mean anything to us. that is a conclusion. what did she say to him? mrs. de mohrenschildt. let me try to remember exactly. don't forget, i am telling right now impressions. it is very difficult to remember exact words. but certain things led to leave that impression in my mind. mr. jenner. mrs. de mohrenschildt, it happens that you and george, having the time, having the inclination, being the kind of people you are, you saw more of the oswalds than anybody else. and what i am trying to do is to obtain from you, not only your impressions, but how you came by them. mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes. but what i want to tell you--i don't think it is correct. we didn't see them more than anybody else. in fact, we saw them maybe less, because she never lived with us--she stayed once overnight. and they have been very, very seldom at our house, very, very seldom. i cannot exactly tell how many times. but you can count it on your fingers how many times. and usually it was when finally i find the time and i said come over and i will make dinner for you, or something like that, because i knew they were not eating very well. he didn't care for it at all, but she did. she liked to eat well, and good things. so that was the only occasion we saw them. so i think other people saw them even more. for instance, the people that she lived with, absolutely, because he used to come and visit her. mr. jenner. well, you were more direct with her and with him, you and your husband, because primarily his disposition is to speak his mind, and oswald respected your husband. mrs. de mohrenschildt. he did. he respected him, and he respected me. and maybe that is what makes the difference with the rest of the crowd. he never was respectful. once, as i said, he was a little--showed a little violence, and he said he will break all the baby's toys and tear her dresses if we take her away from him. i said, "lee, where will that get you? if you really love marina that is the last thing you should do, then you lose her forever." and he sort of boiled and boiled. he sat quietly, you know. and he said, all right, he would not do it. mr. jenner. now, i asked you as to the sources of difficulty, and you related them. did she twit him about his inability to make enough money so that she could live better? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes. that was one complaint. another complaint, sexwise, he wasn't satisfactory for her. in fact, she was almost sick that she wasn't getting enough sex, which i never heard of before, i didn't know such things can happen to people, you know. we saw, ourselves, he was a little difficult--for instance, with the baby. i also objected that he didn't let her smoke. after all, she is supposed to be a grown woman. he was definitely domineering--it has to be just like he said and that is it. he always had a feeling that he is the boss, and she has to--just nothing, just wipe the floor with her. this man. so we objected to that. mr. jenner. now, you were going to tell me the basis on which you formed your opinion as to her, you say, nagging. you used the term "ribbing." this was not jocular, was it--not joking? it was irritating? mrs. de mohrenschildt. it was irritating. that he was a big shot, reading, reading, reading. mr. jenner. would say that in your presence? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. she would ridicule him, in other words? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes, in a way, yes. she said things that will hurt men's pride. that definitely was. mr. jenner. try and recall more of that. mrs. de mohrenschildt. i am trying to think what else she said. also, she objected violently that he was rude to the people that helped her. that was very important. because--and i know--i told you the reasons why he objected to that, which are understandable, also. but still, on the other hand, for instance, one incident was--i remember the clarks invited them for dinner, and lee answered the phone, and he said, when they invited him for dinner, we have other plans. he probably didn't want to go there. that is all it was. but you don't talk like that to people. so marina objected to that. she told that to me. there were several other occasions similar to that. for instance, he could not stand george bouhe. he just could not stand him. and, in a way, i don't blame him. i can't stand him, either--that type of a person. he is okay, he is supposed to be a friend. but i don't like that type of personality. he absolutely could not stand him. you know, some people do charity, and they expect for you to kiss their hands for it. and some people do charity, and they are very glad to do it and forget about it, don't expect anything. this is the kind of charity i believe in. bouhe likes to help, and then he keeps those people like slaves, he is a little king, and they do anything for him after that. but oswald didn't. and that is why there was tremendous antagonism there. bouhe asked marina never to come to his house at all, because he was afraid that oswald will follow her and will cause him a scandal, or god knows what. he was that kind of person. i think that was the main thing, that oswald was rude to people helping him. mr. jenner. did oswald ever talk about his political views in your presence? mrs. de mohrenschildt. in which way? overall political, or any particular incidents? mr. jenner. politics with a capital p. his views on government. mrs. de mohrenschildt. i think definitely he was a marxist, ideologist marxist. i don't think he was a communist from the way i would understand a communist. we didn't know if he did or he didn't belong to any party at all. i don't think he even belonged to a party in russia, because that was--oh, this is very important. his objection--the things that he didn't like in russia was those horrible meetings, constant meetings, party meetings. he said that you have to work, and you have to go to those meetings--they drive people crazy, those party meetings, worker meetings. they have to go and listen to speeches and bla, bla, bla. so i don't think he was--according to that, i don't think he was interested in a party, or belonging to anything. it was a complete surprise to us when we learned after all this that he was actually involved in doing something for castro, selling leaflets or something, in new orleans. mr. jenner. passing them out? mrs. de mohrenschildt. absolutely. because we never had---- mr. jenner. you were in haiti by that time? mrs. de mohrenschildt. oh, yes; we saw them last time easter, . mr. jenner. now, something occurred in easter, when you went to visit them? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. was this easter sunday or the day after? mrs. de mohrenschildt. no, to my best recollection it was saturday before easter. by the way, the first time they talked to us about it, i completely mixed all the dates. i thought it was in the fall. but it was the day i remember when we come over with the big pink rabbit for the baby. mr. jenner. did you arrive there during the day? mrs. de mohrenschildt. no; it was in the evening. i think we were playing tennis, and then we were somewhere, and then i decided we will be busy tomorrow, and i wanted to take the rabbit to the baby. and we came over late at night. it was o'clock, or maybe later. and i remember they gave us something to drink. mr. jenner. you arrived there. were they--had they retired for the night? mrs. de mohrenschildt. i think they were halfway in bed already, because the house was dark. i remember we banged on the door. it was dark. mr. jenner. and lee came to the door? mrs. de mohrenschildt. i don't remember who came to the door, marina or lee. mr. jenner. they turned the light on. and where were they living then? mrs. de mohrenschildt. that was their last apartment--not elsbeth, but the other one. i have the address, elsbeth address. but the other address i don't have. it is just around the corner. mr. jenner. ? mrs. de mohrenschildt. i don't know the address. mr. jenner. was it upstairs or downstairs? mrs. de mohrenschildt. upstairs. there was a little terrace, and a big tree growing right next to the terrace. mr. jenner. had you been there before? mrs. de mohrenschildt. no. mr. jenner. that is the first time you had ever been there? mrs. de mohrenschildt. i don't remember. maybe i was. i don't think so. mr. jenner. all right. mrs. de mohrenschildt. i don't think so. mr. jenner. you got there. now, just relax---- mrs. de mohrenschildt. i am trying to think hard, because every little fact could be important. mr. jenner. but you are excited. relax, and tell me everything that occurred, chronologically, as best you can on that occasion. you came to the door and either marina or oswald came to the door, and you and your husband went in the home? mrs. de mohrenschildt. that is right. mr. jenner. then, go on. tell me about it. mrs. de mohrenschildt. and i believe from what i remember george sat down on the sofa and started talking to lee, and marina was showing me the house--that is why i said it looks like it was the first time, because why would she show me the house if i had been there before? then we went to another room, and she opens the closet, and i see the gun standing there. i said, what is the gun doing over there? mr. jenner. you say---- mrs. de mohrenschildt. a rifle. mr. jenner. a rifle, in the closet? mrs. de mohrenschildt. in the closet, right in the beginning. it wasn't hidden or anything. mr. jenner. standing up on its butt? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. i show you commission exhibit . is that the rifle that you saw? mrs. de mohrenschildt. it looks very much like it. mr. jenner. and was it standing in the corner of the closet? mrs. de mohrenschildt. you want me to show you how it was leaning? make believe i open the closet door this way. and the rifle was leaning something like that. mr. jenner. right against the wall? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes; and the closet was square. i said, what is this? mr. jenner. it was this rifle? mrs. de mohrenschildt. i don't know. it looks very much like it, because something was dangling over it, and i didn't know what it was. this telescopic sight. like we had a rifle with us on the road, we just had a smooth thing, nothing attached to it. and i saw something here. mr. jenner. i say your attention was arrested, not only, because when the closet door was opened by marina you saw the rifle in the closet--you saw a rifle? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. that surprised you, first? mrs. de mohrenschildt. of course. mr. jenner. and then other things that arrested your attention, as i gather from what you said, is that you saw a telescopic sight? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes; but i didn't know what it was. mr. jenner. but your attention was arrested by that fact, because it was something new and strange to you? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. you were accustomed to your husband having weapons? mrs. de mohrenschildt. well, we had only one rifle on our trip. but my father was a collector of guns, that was his hobby. mr. jenner. and being accustomed to rifles, to the extent you have indicated, you noticed this telescopic lens, because you had not seen a rifle with a telescopic lens on it before? had you seen a rifle with the bolt action that this has? mrs. de mohrenschildt. no; i didn't ever know. i read it was bolt action, but i would not know. mr. jenner. but you did notice this protrusion, the ball sticking out? mrs. de mohrenschildt. no; i don't recall. the only thing there was something on it. it could be that it was the telescopic sight or something, but it was something on the rifle. it was not a smooth, plain rifle. this is for sure. mr. jenner. now, when you saw that, and being surprised, were you concerned about it? mrs. de mohrenschildt. i just asked what on earth is he doing with a rifle? mr. jenner. what did she say? mrs. de mohrenschildt. she said, "oh, he just loves to shoot." i said, "where on earth does he shoot? where can he shoot?" when they lived in a little house. "oh, he goes in the park and he shoots at leaves and things like that." but it didn't strike me too funny, because i personally love skeet shooting. i never kill anything. but i adore to shoot at a target, target shooting. mr. jenner. skeet? mrs. de mohrenschildt. i just love it. mr. jenner. didn't you think it was strange to have someone say he is going in a public park and shooting leaves? mrs. de mohrenschildt. but he was taking the baby out. he goes with her, and that was his amusement. mr. jenner. did she say that? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes; that was his amusement, practicing in the park, shooting leaves. that wasn't strange to me, because any time i go to an amusement park i go to the rifles and start shooting. so i didn't find anything strange. mr. jenner. but you shot a rifle at the rifle range in these amusement parks? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. little . ? mrs. de mohrenschildt. i don't know what it was. mr. jenner. didn't you think it was strange that a man would be walking around a public park in dallas with a high-powered rifle like this, shooting leaves? mrs. de mohrenschildt. i don't know it was a high-powered rifle. i had no idea. i don't even know right now. is it a high-powered rifle? or just a regular one-bullet rifle, isn't it? mr. jenner. it is a one-bullet rifle, but it is a pretty powerful one. mrs. de mohrenschildt. i didn't know that. what caliber is it? mr. jenner. . . mrs. de mohrenschildt. that i don't understand. we had --shotgun with us. mr. jenner. had anything been said up to this point in your acquaintance with the oswalds of his having had a rifle, or a shotgun, in russia? mrs. de mohrenschildt. no. mr. jenner. no discussion of any hunting in russia? mrs. de mohrenschildt. in fact, we never even knew that he was a sharpshooter or something. we never knew about it. mr. jenner. no discussion of that? mrs. de mohrenschildt. no discussion at all. she just said, we are so short of money, and this crazy lunatic buys a rifle. this is what she told me. and you know what happened after that. mr. jenner. please. tell me everything she said on this occasion. mrs. de mohrenschildt. i think the most important thing is, that crazy lunatic bought a rifle when we really need money for other things. mr. jenner. and she also said he took it out in the park and was shooting it? mrs. de mohrenschildt. something like that; yes. mr. jenner. all right. now, then, what did you do? go into some other part of the house? mrs. de mohrenschildt. it wasn't very much. i believe it was only two rooms. and then i returned back, and told george--do you know what they have in the closet? i came back to the room, where george and lee were sitting and talking. i said, do you know what they have in the closet? a rifle. and started to laugh about it. and george, of course, with his sense of humor--walker was shot at a few days ago, within that time. he said, "did you take a pot shot at walker by any chance?" and we started laughing our heads off, big joke, big george's joke. and later on, according to the newspapers, he admitted that he shot at walker. mr. jenner. now, when george made that remark in the presence of lee oswald, "did you take a pot shot at walker?" did you notice any change---- mrs. de mohrenschildt. we were not looking for any. i wish i would know. mr. jenner. please--i want only your reaction. your husband has told me his. you noticed nothing? mrs. de mohrenschildt. i didn't notice anything. mr. jenner. were you looking to see whether he had a change of expression? mrs. de mohrenschildt. no; none at all. it was just a joke. mr. jenner. as far as you were concerned, it was a joke? mrs. de mohrenschildt. sure. mr. jenner. but you did not look at him to see if he reacted? mrs. de mohrenschildt. no; i didn't take it seriously enough to look at him. mr. jenner. you didn't? mrs. de mohrenschildt. i didn't. mr. jenner. how long did you remain after that at their home? mrs. de mohrenschildt. not very long. i think we went on the terrace. and i don't even remember whether we had a drink, a soft drink, or not. and we left. she got me some roses. they had a big rose tree right by the staircase. and she got me a lot of roses, and we went home. the baby was asleep. mr. jenner. did you see the oswalds on any subsequent occasion? mrs. de mohrenschildt. no. mr. jenner. never saw them? mrs. de mohrenschildt. i don't remember. i don't think so. what day was easter, by the way? do you remember-- ? mr. jenner. no; i don't. mrs. de mohrenschildt. because the th of april, we left. mr. jenner. you left for new york on the th of april? mrs. de mohrenschildt. nineteenth, from what i recall. i think so. mr. jenner. i think easter was late that year, but i am not certain. in any event, it was the day before easter? mrs. de mohrenschildt. i believe so; yes. the night before easter. mr. jenner. when you left for new york, you were in new york a few weeks, a couple of weeks? mrs. de mohrenschildt. we spent about weeks between new york, washington, philadelphia. mr. jenner. and you returned to dallas in may? mrs. de mohrenschildt. end of may. mr. jenner. did you call the oswalds? mrs. de mohrenschildt. no; we didn't. we heard that they were already gone. i wanted to see them before we went to haiti. but i understood that they were gone, or they were going. i had no time. so we didn't get in touch with them. but we had a card from them from new orleans, with their address. but i don't think we ever wrote to them. i don't remember writing. we were going to send them a christmas card. mr. jenner. now, do you recall an occasion in february of when there was a gathering in the evening at the home of, or apartment of everett glover? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. did you and your husband take part in that? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes; we were showing our movies to everett's friends. mr. jenner. how did that party come about? mrs. de mohrenschildt. well, you know, we have this quite unusual film, and quite a few people interested to see it. and, in fact, we showed that film--the film so many times, at clubs and gatherings. and he had still quite a few friends that wanted to see it, and we had a couple of friends. so we decided to have it. and then he mentioned he knew a woman, ruth paine. mr. jenner. you are talking about glover? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes; and he said that would be very nice. i was sort of looking for american couples to introduce lee and marina to american people--not to russian refugees--to get her out of that. so he mentioned that it would be very nice for marina to meet this girl, and it was. she was a young woman, she was interested in russian. mr. jenner. what was her name? mrs. de mohrenschildt. ruth paine. and that we thought was very good, because she could help marina in english and marina would help her in russian, that it would work very well. from what i understand later on from the papers, she did help a lot, marina. she did a lot for her. mr. jenner. did you talk to marina about this in advance? mrs. de mohrenschildt. i don't remember. i think maybe i did. i don't remember. i really don't remember. mr. jenner. a few weeks before this, marina and lee had visited in your home, isn't that correct? mrs. de mohrenschildt. very possible, very possible. i don't remember. mr. jenner. had you known ruth paine at all prior to this time? mrs. de mohrenschildt. met her the first time that evening, and we liked her very much, because she is an outgoing, warm, and wonderful person. i thought that would be terrific for marina to be close to somebody because i didn't have time. i just couldn't, and i don't have any patience. when i see somebody is clicking right away i respond to advice, but she wasn't, you know. she was too slow, and we have too much problems with our own children. mr. jenner. who is too slow? mrs. de mohrenschildt. marina. we had too many problems with our own children, and i was just tired of it, you know. after all, she was not my child. i did everything i could, so let somebody else take over and do something else because i was too busy, and we were planning this trip. george--through next month to haiti actually to seal this contract. we had our heads busy with other things. mr. jenner. what occurred during that evening? the movie was shown? mrs. de mohrenschildt. we just showed the movie and discussed it, and the people asked different questions, peculiar questions about the life of indians--or---- mr. jenner. about your trip? mrs. de mohrenschildt. about our trip, and that was all. mr. jenner. weren't these people interested in marina and oswald? mrs. de mohrenschildt. some were. mr. jenner. who was present? mrs. de mohrenschildt. from what i recall at that particular time, it was just ruth paine that we noticed was the most interested in her. i don't even remember who was there besides. i don't remember who was there. there were some young people from a mobile research laboratory that worked with everett. mr. jenner. from everett glover's place? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes; there were people there. i do believe, i think we invited the person that owned the apartment house. this time we showed movies twice at everett's house, i believe. i think we showed it twice, and we invited the people that own the apartment house because they were interested in that. mr. jenner. what are their names? mrs. de mohrenschildt. i don't remember. she is teaching in a university, in dallas university now. they like to travel a lot, too. i am sure you can get the name, the list of names of people from everett. mr. jenner. did lee have a good time at this party, or meeting? mrs. de mohrenschildt. i don't know, because it was always dark when the movies were shown, so i wasn't observing anybody. mr. jenner. did you bring lee and marina to the party? mrs. de mohrenschildt. i don't believe so. i think somebody else got them, because i think we had people, out of town guests, and in fact we came in very late, i think. we arrived quite late that day. mr. jenner. you arrived at the party late? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes; once we were late. i forgot which showing it was. we had a couple of people out of town. we invited them for dinner, and then we brought them over. mr. jenner. that was the only purpose of the meeting that you have indicated? mrs. de mohrenschildt. the only purpose of? mr. jenner. the meeting, the only purpose was the one you have indicated? mrs. de mohrenschildt. oh, yes. mr. jenner. did you attend a combination christmas and new year's party in december of at the fords? mrs. de mohrenschildt. i don't know the date. mr. jenner. . mrs. de mohrenschildt. i don't know the date, but there was a party, and we attended it. mr. jenner. please, when you say you don't know the dates, was it in december? was it in the holiday period? mrs. de mohrenschildt. it was in the holiday period, but was it december or was it early january, i don't remember. mr. jenner. and who was at that party? mrs. de mohrenschildt. there were quite a lot of people from this russian colony and among them there was a little japanese girl. do you know about yaeko? mr. jenner. y-a-e-k-o? mrs. de mohrenschildt. that is right. mr. jenner. did you know yaeko before? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes; we knew yaeko before. mr. jenner. what was her last name? mrs. de mohrenschildt. i don't remember her last name because we always called her yaeko. mr. jenner. where was she working? mrs. de mohrenschildt. i don't know whether she was working at the time or not, but she was imported by some american family. she came with the family. she is supposed to be from a very fine japanese family. she was wealthy. it was strange she worked almost as a servant in some family. i know she had only one day off, because i remember when we wanted to invite her it was only one day, thursday, that we could invite her. then she did some work with neiman marcus. mr. jenner. neiman marcus? mrs. de mohrenschildt. then she was a musician. she played the japanese special long, long instrument, and she was playing with the dallas symphony, and she was also playing at exhibits, neiman marcus gives exhibits, you know, oriental exhibits, whatever it was, that fall, and she was participating in it. that is what we know about yaeko. but then we heard that she was in new york. to tell you frankly i never trusted yaeko. i thought there was something fishy, maybe because i was brought up with japanese, you know, and i knew what treachery it is, you know. i just somehow--she was very pleasant, but was very strange to me the way she was floating around, you know, and everything. there is another strange thing happened, too, with that yaeko. mr. jenner. involving the oswalds? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. tell us. mrs. de mohrenschildt. that was very funny because they practically spent all evening together at that party, and marina was furious, of course, about it. and the party that brought yoico to the party was furious about it, too, and i don't blame him for it. and from what i understand, marina told me that oswald saw yaeko after, which was very unusual, because i don't think oswald wanted to see anyone, let's put it that way. he would rather just sit by himself and--locked in a house, not to see anyone. and, in fact, marina was jealous of it, from yaeko. she was the only person we know that oswald really liked. mr. jenner. can you recall the names of the family with whom yaeko--by whom yaeko was employed? mrs. de mohrenschildt. no; but i can find out very easily. mr. jenner. how? mrs. de mohrenschildt. through dallas. they know the people that actually introduced yaeko. it will be henry rogatz who knows yaeko very well. mr. jenner. spell that, please. mrs. de mohrenschildt. two people who can give you everything about yoico because they have been carrying on helping her all the time. henry rogatz, also in---- mr. jenner. henry rogatz, r-o-g-a-t-z, and lev aronson, a-r-o-n-s-o-n? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes; and i believe i have lev's address in my phone book, if i need it. i can phone you. i don't know if we have henry's address now. they are both very nice people, charming people. mr. jenner. would you do this. call my hotel, the madison? mrs. de mohrenschildt. call later on? mr. jenner. and leave a message at my hotel as to mr. aronson's address and telephone number, if you have it? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes; and maybe we have henry's address. maybe somebody sent it to us because we asked. we didn't have it with us when we left. we just moved. voshinin liked yaeko. mr. jenner. voshinin? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes; but i think henry can tell you much more than anybody. mr. jenner. how, otherwise, did oswald act at this christmas party. he paid a great deal of attention, apparently, to---- mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes; they talk, talk, talk, talk, talk. mr. jenner. to the japanese girl? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes; what did they talk about, i don't have the slightest idea. but everybody remarked and we were laughing about it. we were teasing marina how he had a little japanese girl now, you now. that was just as fun, of course, you know. but evidently they not only talked because she said he saw her later and he liked her. that is what she told me. he really liked yaeko. mr. jenner. did you bring the oswalds to the party? mrs. de mohrenschildt. i think we brought them. in fact, i had a fight almost to get them to that party because cathy didn't want them and we weren't giving any parties. we gave a big party before, and i wanted marina to be at some christmas party because it was her first christmas in the united states, she could have some kind of fun, so i talked her into it finally. she objected, because she could not bring the baby because the baby would wake up. i said okay, i'm going to leave the baby with somebody else. so i have another friend which i talked into babysitting for the baby. so we went, we got there, and we left the baby with the friend and then we took them to the party, and then we went back to the friend, picked up the baby. it was midnight or whatever it was, and took them back. mr. jenner. earlier in raising this christmas party matter with you, mrs. de mohrenschildt, i stated that it was in december of . that was a slip of the tongue, and it was in december of , because in december of you were in haiti. mrs. de mohrenschildt. it was after this. mr. jenner. of course, it couldn't be december of . mrs. de mohrenschildt. he was dead already. mr. jenner. by that time, he was not alive. you took the oswalds home that evening? mrs. de mohrenschildt. i believe we did. we just had to, because we had to go pick up the baby. the baby was crying all evening. that poor woman was up with her all the time. it was just impossible, that baby was so spoiled, all the time with her, with her mother, or with lee, because so few people came to see them. they lived like mice, you know. that is why we were so sorry for them. i wanted for them to meet american couples to get out of it. we tried to get marina friendly with george's daughter because she had a little boy, too. mr. jenner. with whose daughter? mrs. de mohrenschildt. with george's daughter. mr. jenner. alexandra? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes; but alexandra couldn't understand her. she thought it was horrible the way she treats that baby. it is true she doesn't know how to raise the baby. alexandra told me she was lazy, also, and she wasn't clean, and things like that. now i remember how come it was that she wasn't clean. alexandra was complaining about her. so alexandra--it didn't hit off exactly with alexandra, but it was very nice. her husband went to visit them after, and i think they helped them to move, even. mr. jenner. gary taylor? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes; gary is insignificant but a good soul, a good boy, you know. he is nothing at all. mr. jenner. you mean he is not a man of attainment? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes; but he is a good soul. he is really good, so i could never be very angry for what happened. it was just a child's prank that he ran off so early and got married. in fact, i was sorry for him because i knew he is not going to be happy, not to start with. i knew he was not going to be. i believe kids helped them quite some and maybe the kids consoled them after. mr. jenner. was anything ever said by marina or your husband that she sought to have oswald leave russia and come to the united states? mrs. de mohrenschildt. i don't think so. it is just impressions we had. mr. jenner. now, was there any discussion at any time, or did anything come to your attention that lee oswald sought to have marina return to russia? mrs. de mohrenschildt. none at all. mr. jenner. that is entirely new to you? mrs. de mohrenschildt. absolutely new. was it such a thing? i shouldn't ask you any questions. i am sorry, because i am so curious about the whole thing, myself. in fact, we learned from press times more than we ever knew about them. mr. jenner. you may have gotten a lot of misinformation from the press, as well. mrs. de mohrenschildt. could be, i don't know. mr. jenner. are you aware of your husband's letter to mrs. auchincloss, jacqueline kennedy's mother? mrs. de mohrenschildt. did i what? mr. jenner. are you aware of the letter---- mrs. de mohrenschildt. oh, yes. mr. jenner. you are? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. did your husband show you that letter? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. before he sent it? mrs. de mohrenschildt. he usually shows me most of the letters. i show to him whenever i write to some friends. but if i want to add anything or if he wants to add anything to mine. mr. jenner. i show you de mohrenschildt exhibits nos. and , no. being the original of your husband's letter of december , , to mrs. auchincloss, and no. being the envelope in which that letter was mailed. mrs. de mohrenschildt. i don't think i really should read it. do you want me to read it again? mr. jenner. you have read that exhibit? mrs. de mohrenschildt. i am just finishing; yes. do you want me to read this, too? (discussion off the record.) mr. jenner. back on the record. the second paragraph reads: "since we lived in dallas permanently last year and before, we had the misfortune to have met oswald and especially his wife marina some time last fall." now, what did you mean by "we had the misfortune to have met oswald"? mrs. de mohrenschildt. well, i am sure he meant, and i agree with him because it is not pleasant to know if he really did it, to know the killer of our president, i would rather not know them. i would rather not have anything to do and be as far away as possible, unless that we help, you know. that is what he meant, i am sure, and i am joining him in the same feeling. mr. jenner. the next sentence: "both my wife and i tried to help poor marina, who could not speak any english, was mistreated by her husband. she and the baby were malnourished and sickly." mrs. de mohrenschildt. correct. mr. jenner. now, all that is true; isn't it? mrs. de mohrenschildt. absolutely true. she was just skin and bones. the baby was not thin, but the baby had improper diet. she didn't know how to feed that baby. mr. jenner. she did not? mrs. de mohrenschildt. she had no idea how to feed that baby. the baby was raised on sugar, water and sugar, no food. it is just terrible, like prehistoric times she was raising that baby. that is why i insisted immediately she register the baby in the clinic. the baby was months old, didn't have diptheria, whooping cough, polio injection, didn't have anything. i don't think the baby was ever at the doctor. the way she was feeding him every time the baby cried she gave him sugar water, put sugar in the milk, everywhere, you know. children have to have a proper diet, a balanced diet. i told her, "you are living in a civilized country now. you have to raise a baby correctly." she constantly put the pacifier in the mouth, dropping it on the floor, putting it in her mouth, infected teeth and putting it in the baby's mouth. it is fantastic the baby wasn't sick all the time. seeing all that, i couldn't stand it. i insisted on her taking the baby to the clinic, helping her, extract all those teeth. mr. jenner. marina's teeth? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes; marina's teeth that were infected because they weren't doing her any good, anyway. it was too dangerous for the baby to be close to the mother, with all this infection. in fact, i was trying to make arrangements to make some bridges for her later on that could be paid gradually, you know, and that is what i was trying to do for her. this was logical and natural. anybody would do the same thing. mr. jenner. yes; of course. mrs. de mohrenschildt. she just didn't know any better, you know. that was shocking to me because i had the impression, in fact marina doesn't fit at all my ideal, not ideal but how to say it, my feeling about soviet youth. i pictured them entirely different. i pictured them all sportsmen, very tough, you know, just thinking of their work, sportsmen or something, you know. some field that they are interested in and that is it. she seems to be exactly opposite to everything. she wasn't a sports girl at all. she didn't have any particular desire for anything, you know. she didn't have determination and goal or anything like that in her life. she was just loving, you know, absolutely opposite, and when she told us how they behave in russia, that was absolutely too--i never thought that. i thought they were very, very proper and very---- mr. jenner. what did she say about how they behaved? mrs. de mohrenschildt. well, these sort of orgies, you know, wild parties, and things like that that i would never think that youth would be busy with that because we saw some youngsters in yugoslavian companies in the camps, maybe we saw the healthier ones and the bad ones stayed in the city probably, but they were all just like scouts, you know, just like we were brought up, all interested in sports or in collections or something, you know. they had wonderful healthy interests. and marina was exactly opposite all of these things. in fact, in spite of that, she was a pharmacologist, that means she has a good head. but somehow she was not at all what i would picture as a soviet girl. it was entirely opposite, and maybe she is an exception, or maybe they all are, i don't know. mr. jenner. and she related to you these wild parties and orgies in minsk? was that in the presence of lee? mrs. de mohrenschildt. no; i don't think so. lee was there very, very little, because he was always working or something. one evening i talked with her very long when she came over to go to the dentist, and the baby was asleep and george was asleep, and she wanted to talk, and we sat down and had some wine and she could smoke all she wanted and she had wine that she wanted. so she told me quite a lot of things. i was really sorry for her. i gave her a nylon nightgown and a little nylon coat that went on and she was sitting and touching it. "can you imagine me wearing that," you know. it was to her something out of this world, to have such things on her. that was sort of touching, you know. she really is pleasant. you cannot be very angry with her. mr. jenner. you have testified for quite awhile. now, tell me what kind of a person she was? what is your definite impression now? you have told me she told you about these wild orgies. when you use that expression i assume they were parties of---- mrs. de mohrenschildt. sexual orgies. i mean the things that would never occur to us. mr. jenner. in this country? mrs. de mohrenschildt. in this country. i would say china, too. i was brought up in china and never heard of such things, you know. youth never acted like that at all. so it definitely looks like a degeneration, you know, definitely degeneration. mr. jenner. you found her, while you knew she was a pharmacist---- mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. you immediately noticed that she was ignorant, let me say? mrs. de mohrenschildt. in bringing up the child? mr. jenner. in bringing up this child? mrs. de mohrenschildt. absolutely. mr. jenner. that she fed her sugar and water? mrs. de mohrenschildt. milk and sugar. mr. jenner. milk and sugar and was unattentive as to cleanliness with the child? mrs. de mohrenschildt. the child was more or less clean, but with this pacifier thing. mr. jenner. the pacifier would fall on the floor, she would pick it up and stick it in the baby's mouth? mrs. de mohrenschildt. no; first she put it in her infected mouth and then in the baby's mouth, it was even worse. that is what i objected. pick it up off the floor. the floor was less germs than her infected teeth, but she was not aware of it. that is what didn't make sense, didn't make sense at all. after all, a pharmacist--it also didn't make any sense to me how could she, came from the country where all the medical help is supposed to be absolutely free. mr. jenner. can you recall any other incidents? mrs. de mohrenschildt. with marina? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. de mohrenschildt. i don't recollect of anything of any importance. mr. jenner. indicating what kind of a person she was. what about her honesty? would you believe her under oath, where her personal interests were involved, let us say? mrs. de mohrenschildt. i don't know. i tell you what i didn't like about her recently and sort of swayed me a little against her. according to what i read in the newspapers, she said when she was asked--i mean what swayed me about her personality---- mr. jenner. i don't want you influenced by what you read in the papers afterward. i want your opinion. mrs. de mohrenschildt. before? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. de mohrenschildt. she impressed me as an honest girl. she really impressed me as an honest girl, and not malicious, not malicious, promiscuous, you know. mr. jenner. what? mrs. de mohrenschildt. promiscuous. mr. jenner. she was promiscuous but not malicious? mrs. de mohrenschildt. not malicious. that is how i would put it, you know. she was so anxious to live and she was so happy to be in the united states. she wanted to have it all, you know what i mean? she wanted a car and she wanted to have a little apartment and have all these little gadgets that fascinated her, just like they fascinated me when i came to the united states. she was living in that poor, poor apartment. of course, it was depressing for her. mr. jenner. was she talking to lee about all, that she wanted a car and these gadgets and a refrigerator? mrs. de mohrenschildt. i cannot say she did, but i am sure she did. mr. jenner. your husband recalls that you and he, at least he, suggested to them that they should buy a car. they could get one for very little money. mrs. de mohrenschildt. i believe we talked about it. but i don't know if he even drives a car. mr. jenner. did you ever see him drive a car? mrs. de mohrenschildt. no. mr. jenner. was there any discussion at any time in your presence indicating whether he could or couldn't drive a car? mrs. de mohrenschildt. i don't remember. i think we had them in a car only once talking, you know, and she expressed how wonderful it would be to have a car, something like that, this is the only recollection i have. we didn't have too much discussions about it. mr. jenner. you took the baby to the clinic for various shots? mrs. de mohrenschildt. registered her, yes; and i got her card and the dates when she is supposed to come over, and i didn't take her next time. somebody else took her. i took her only once to the clinic. mr. jenner. so, as a matter of fact, mrs. dymitruk took her? mrs. de mohrenschildt. she did. mr. jenner. you recall mrs. dymitruk? mrs. de mohrenschildt. i know her very little, but i recall her. i think it is lydia, isn't it? mr. jenner. you also took her to the dentist. was that at baylor? mrs. de mohrenschildt. it was a dental clinic, i believe. it was in baylor hospital, dental clinic. mr. jenner. some money had to be paid in that connection? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. and you got that money from george bouhe? mrs. de mohrenschildt. that is right, and he told me there would be the necessity of more money there would be no objection if he got some funds for them. mr. jenner. that if there was need for additional money---- mrs. de mohrenschildt. more money, yes, he had some funds to help them. mr. jenner. now, the next paragraph of this letter reads: "some time last fall we heard that oswald had beaten his wife cruelly, so we drove to their miserable place and forcibly took marina and the child away from the character." you have told us about that incident, have you? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. then it reads: "then he threatened me and my wife, but i did not take him seriously." you have told us about that? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. "marina stayed with the family of some childless russian refugees for awhile, keeping her baby, but finally decided to return to her husband." is that correct? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. you recall that? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. was that the mellers? mrs. de mohrenschildt. that was the mellers, and she went back within a week or two instead of as she promised to be apart for or months. we were really furious. we wasted the whole day, so much aggravation, go through all that trying to do something for them and then she dropped the whole thing. so why bother, you know? so from then on we were really disgusted. after all, you can waste so much time, and if we don't see anything, response, you know we are just tired of it. let them live their own rights. let them battle their own battles. mr. jenner. did the occasion arise then shortly thereafter in which marina left lee and went with some others? mrs. de mohrenschildt. i don't even remember that. mr. jenner. you don't? mrs. de mohrenschildt. no. mr. jenner. you do recall a time when she was with mrs. ford? mrs. de mohrenschildt. i don't recall it. i think she lived with them, too. i think so, but i don't know exactly when and how, because we hardly ever saw them from then on. just occasionally all of a sudden i'd get sorry and i'd go and buy a cake, you know, a cheesecake or something and we'd just drive by and drop it and just talk with them a few minutes and leave. that is about the only things we had, the only connection we had. mr. jenner. the next paragraph: "it is really a shame that such crimes occur in our times and in our country. but there is so much jealousy for success and the late president was successful in so many domains and there is so much desire for publicity on the part of all shady characters that assassinations are bound to occur." did your husband discuss that sentence with you? mrs. de mohrenschildt. no, we didn't discuss any sentences of this letter. mr. jenner. but you read the letter before it was mailed? mrs. de mohrenschildt. i read the letter. the only thing i can say what he meant by it is that it seems to be that everything went wrong for lee, starting with his childhood, you know, and no matter what he did it was always a failure. so anything that seems to be president kennedy touched was turning into gold, he was so successful in his marriage. you know he was such a wonderful president and he had health and public office, everything, you know, so it could be that in the bottom of lee's heart was some antagonism, you know. mr. jenner. did you have that impression of the man? mrs. de mohrenschildt. no, never at all. mr. jenner. did you have any impression that he was envious at any time? mrs. de mohrenschildt. no, and in fact that is what doesn't make any sense, because i don't think he ever said anything against, and whatever the president was doing, kennedy was doing, lee was completely exactly with the same ideas, exactly. if he would shoot walker that would be understandable, even if he would be shooting at connally that is understandable, too. we learned that connally refused him honorable discharge, so he had a grudge against connally, but president kennedy, no. mr. jenner. please, did you know anything about the discharge incident? mrs. de mohrenschildt. no. we read it in the papers after. mr. jenner. i want to keep separated here what you learned about afterwards. governor connally was never mentioned at any time? mrs. de mohrenschildt. never. mr. jenner. that you had any contact with the oswalds? mrs. de mohrenschildt. no. mr. jenner. was his discharge from the marines, was that subject ever mentioned? mrs. de mohrenschildt. no. mr. jenner. was his boyhood ever mentioned? mrs. de mohrenschildt. his boyhood? mr. jenner. boyhood. mrs. de mohrenschildt. no. never, never. mr. jenner. did he say anything that he had lived in poverty or hadn't lived in poverty, that he had difficulty all his life? mrs. de mohrenschildt. no, no; we never discussed that. i don't remember discussing that. mr. jenner. was there any mention of his marine record, his record in the service, and what he had done? mrs. de mohrenschildt. no. i don't recall any conversation. mr. jenner. so this paragraph that i have read, that is about it being a shame that crimes occur and there is so much jealousy for success, that was rationalization afterwards? mrs. de mohrenschildt. absolutely. mr. jenner. then your husband says in this letter: "better precautions should have been taken." mrs. de mohrenschildt. right. i agree. mr. jenner. did you discuss that with your husband? mrs. de mohrenschildt. i agree. i didn't discuss that with him, but better precautions should be taken, especially when we learned later on that adlai stevenson was treated very poorly in dallas, so they should have known that there were antagonism towards the democrats, and they had no right really to permit the president to ride like that without that bubble after such demonstrations against stevenson. mr. jenner. so this remark in the letter is based on that? mrs. de mohrenschildt. on that, exactly. mr. jenner. that is as far as you are concerned? mrs. de mohrenschildt. as far as we are concerned, yes. mr. jenner. your husband may have had something else in mind? mrs. de mohrenschildt. i don't know. i don't think so, but he may. did he mention to you that we have this birch society in texas, the right wing, extreme right wing? mr. jenner. you go ahead if you have anything to say about that. mrs. de mohrenschildt. i don't know if he mentioned it. he probably did. that there is a democrat party split, you know. the republicans are one but the democrats are two. a lot of democrats didn't like what kennedy was doing, especially they didn't like this approach to segregation, you know, and many other things. they thought he was too forward, too fast. lots of people thought he was too young, you know. and so there was a lot of---- mr. jenner. animosity? mrs. de mohrenschildt. disturbances. not exactly animosity, but they didn't exactly appreciate what kennedy was doing and they were still democrats. that is really terrible. that birch society is a horrible thing. it is almost like ku klux klan. mr. jenner. he also says on the second page of his letter: "i do hope that marina and her children (i understand she has two now) will not suffer too badly throughout their lives and that the stigma will not affect the innocent children. somehow, i still have a lingering doubt, notwithstanding all the evidence, of oswald's guilt." now, that last sentence, did your husband discuss that with you? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes. we talk about it very often. mr. jenner. did you talk about it at the time he wrote this letter? mrs. de mohrenschildt. no. he wrote the letter, i wasn't there. in fact, i saw the letter accidentally because i just stopped by his office for something and he said, "i just finished a letter. please mail it for me," or something like that, you know. otherwise, maybe i wouldn't even see the letter. mr. jenner. in any event, he did not discuss it with you before he prepared the letter? mrs. de mohrenschildt. no; not at all. in fact i did never know he was going to write the letter. i don't think he told me anything. he just wrote the letter. mr. jenner. did you take marina to the dental clinic or laboratory more than once? mrs. de mohrenschildt. i think i took her twice there, i believe. they couldn't do it all at once. it was too much. one thing impressed me while we were in the clinic. you know she sort of perked up. it gave her a feeling that she was like back. she liked the uniform, you know. she said how it would be wonderful if she could work, also, be a pharmacist again and do something. that is when i told her learn english and you can do anything. the sky is the limit. did my husband mention to you about a strange thing about the voshinins? it could be something or could be nothing, you see. it could be excused or maybe something they knew about oswald. they refused to meet him. they refused to meet them, and it came to a point, you know i am pretty persistent when i want something and i was after her, i said, "for god sakes, you are always carrying on with every little russian and this and that." i am not interested, but she is. "how come you still didn't meet the oswalds?" she said, "don't ever mention it to me again. we have a reason." i said, "what are the reasons?" she said, "i cannot tell you." maybe it was an excuse that she just didn't want to, hearing of his personality. maybe there is something else, i don't know. but that was very strange because they always carry on with every russian, you know. mr. jenner. now, you gave them these language records? mrs. de mohrenschildt. a phonograph. mr. jenner. a little phonograph to play them on. you gave them money that you had received from george bouhe? mrs. de mohrenschildt. right. mr. jenner. but you didn't give them any of your own money? mrs. de mohrenschildt. not that i ever recall. mr. jenner. you brought them gifts? mrs. de mohrenschildt. just tiny little things. mr. jenner. yes. you gave her some clothing. mrs. de mohrenschildt. i personally didn't. she didn't need it already. by the time we got to know her she had too much clothes and my clothes was too big for her. i was trying to fit her some of my things, some slacks or something. they were too big. it was too much trouble to have it altered for her and she didn't need to. mr. jenner. you mentioned on one occasion when she was at your home overnight you gave her---- mrs. de mohrenschildt. that is just for the night, the nightgown, like that. mr. jenner. do you know if oswald received any financial assistance in addition to that which he received from mr. bouhe? did oswald ever discuss his finances with you and your husband? mrs. de mohrenschildt. i don't think so. i don't think we talked much about that. it is just that it is pretty tight because they have to pay out the debt. mr. jenner. did he ever express any views that were antagonistic to the united states and its form of government? mrs. de mohrenschildt. never. he objected to the way the integration question was handled, in this way. and i think we all do. mr. jenner. he was opposed to segregation, was he? mrs. de mohrenschildt. of course, he was opposed to segregation. he wanted complete equality of rights because those people are just american as everybody else so it is really one of the worst problems we have. mr. jenner. i appreciate that, but i am trying to find out what his views were. mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes; he is completely in accord with president kennedy's policy on the subject. that is why it doesn't make exactly sense. he has no reason whatsoever, to our knowledge. maybe he had something inside which he never disclosed to us, you know. mr. jenner. now, there have been interruptions yesterday and today in which we have been off the record and we have had some discussions. is there anything that you have said to me or i have said to you off the record, that is, not when it was taken down, that i have failed to bring out that you might regard in any degree pertinent to this investigation? mrs. de mohrenschildt. well, the only thing, the question i actually brought up yesterday, it was not about oswald. i mean in my thinking it was. i think you should investigate ruby inside out because it just doesn't make any sense. that is what bothers me. mr. jenner. do you know jack ruby? mrs. de mohrenschildt. no. mr. jenner. otherwise known as jack rubinstein? mrs. de mohrenschildt. never heard of him. mr. jenner. did you or your husband ever frequent or were you ever in the carousel club or any of those night clubs? mrs. de mohrenschildt. no. mr. jenner. that he operated? mrs. de mohrenschildt. no. mr. jenner. were people in the russian colony, including yourself, disposed to attend that sort of thing. mrs. de mohrenschildt. no; not at all. mr. jenner. did you ever hear oswald mention the name jack ruby or jack rubinstein? mrs. de mohrenschildt. i never heard him mention that. i don't recall ever hearing it. i didn't know of his existence. mr. jenner. you say that oswald was a temperate man, i mean as far as drinking is concerned? mrs. de mohrenschildt. oh, yes; he wouldn't drink. mr. jenner. have you ever seen jack ruby in the flesh? mrs. de mohrenschildt. no. mr. jenner. i mean apart from newsreels? mrs. de mohrenschildt. tv? no. mr. jenner. did marina ever mention jack ruby? mrs. de mohrenschildt. no; not that i recall. mr. jenner. was anything ever said that led you to believe or indicated that either he or she separately or together had ever frequented any of jack ruby's places? mrs. de mohrenschildt. nothing at all. the only link i am searching for is that i don't believe jack ruby did it because of his good intentions. i think there is something behind that killing. that is all there is to it. until it is proven, i remain with my opinion, let's put it that way. mr. jenner. but your opinion is formed on what you have read in the newspapers? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes; that is the only thing i know. mr. jenner. and not on any actual facts you know anything about? mrs. de mohrenschildt. no, sir; and, also based on the natural deduction because i adore mystery stories and it just doesn't make any sense. the whole evidence just points to--the thing is much too simple. how could it be that if oswald did it, could he be that completely stupid to leave the plans, according to the newspapers we learn of the march route of the kennedy thing. wouldn't he try to cover it up a little bit, you know? it doesn't make sense at all to me. i tell you the things that don't make sense to me. that was no. doesn't make any sense. no. , knowing more or less and observing him as a personality, if he would have done it he would say "i did it" and he would boast about it yet. that is the kind of a person he is. for some reason he clammed up for days, and i know the dallas police is pretty rough. he didn't have a good time, i am sure, and he did not. what was his reasons? maybe he was frightened he didn't want to admit it, he decided maybe, and maybe he didn't do it. how do i know? it doesn't make sense at all. anybody could take the rifle out of the garage. i understand it was wrapped up in a blanket and standing in a garage at ruth paine's; anybody could do it. mr. jenner. you know nothing about any rifle except on that saturday, that easter saturday when you went to their home? that is the first time? mrs. de mohrenschildt. that is right. mr. jenner. that you knew anything about a rifle? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. now, is there anything that occurs to you that you think might be helpful to the commission that you would like to add? mrs. de mohrenschildt. i can't think of anything. the only thing, i would like to definitely dip into is yaeko, because that is the only person that was, you know, what i mean--maybe it was just because she is an intelligent girl and she likes to read a lot. maybe they discussed some books, they hit it off this way, you know. maybe he was attracted to her just as a cute japanese girl. i understand he was with marines staying in the east. oh, yes; i remember now. he was always telling--marina was telling me the japanese are such wonderful girls. they make such good wives and so on and so forth. mr. jenner. that is, oswald had told her that? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes; and that is why marina was so irritated that he liked yaeko. and she was sort of blase about it. he can take her, you know, take his little japanese girl; she doesn't need him, something like that. mr. jenner. she needled him? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes; she needled him with yaeko. it may be completely imagination, you know, all of these things. mr. jenner. you have appeared voluntarily? mrs. de mohrenschildt. what did you say? mr. jenner. you have appeared voluntarily for the taking of your deposition? mrs. de mohrenschildt. oh, absolutely. mr. jenner. you and your husband received a letter, did you not, from mr. rankin? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes; we did. mr. jenner. general counsel of the commission? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. and with which was enclosed a copy of the senate joint resolution ? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. which is the legislation under which the commission was created, and a copy of president lyndon johnson's---- mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes; two copies. mr. jenner. his executive order creating the commission, no. ? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes. mr. jenner. and fixing its responsibilities? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes; i don't know the details, but i assumed that is what it was. mr. jenner. and you also received a copy of the regulations and rules under which these proceedings of the commission are undertaken? mrs. de mohrenschildt. i don't remember. i probably did. mr. jenner. i have no more. i appreciate very much your coming, and the commission does. this has been somewhat of a burden, of course, to you and your husband, and your involvement with the oswalds unfortunately has led to this. your husband has told us in considerable detail about the haiti venture. mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes; you know this hurts us very much. you know haiti is just like dallas in a way. we have been gone for days in santo domingo, san juan, santo domingo. we come back three or four people said, "the american embassy is looking for you." this alone, this fact alone is sufficient to start people thinking what is wrong with us that the american embassy is looking for us, you know. that is how people are. so this is not very good, and i am sure my husband told you there was something else was done in haiti. you know somebody wrote some kind of letter to the president, you know, which we don't know. the ambassador is looking into it and there is a couple of people we suggested for him to see here to clear that out. that hurts very badly. i tell you another thing what hurts us very badly. i don't mind to come here at all and in fact it would be different another weeks from now and i would enjoy the visit here very much. it is just not too timely because of my dogs in this condition to travel is misery. but in driving in this morning we called our lawyer in philadelphia to see his little girl and he said, "under those circumstances, you are forbidden to see your child." the fbi was questioning him, was questioning his wife, was questioning the lawyer and the lawyer's wife told him that this time george did something very big. mr. jenner. well, he didn't. mrs. de mohrenschildt. well, that is what is happening, you understand. here are the results. so it is the suggestion that we are going to fly there. we cannot do it tomorrow. the court is closed. we have to go to court and see maybe the court's order to permit, to see the child. so you see this affects us in someway. if you can somehow--at the moment we are concerned, of course, about haiti and haiti's project because a very good thing for everybody concerned. it improves the relations between the countries. it may help the poor people because he discovered quite a few things, and if he can bring capital here and mine it and make use of it, it will be wonderful, and the american people will make money and the haitian people will benefit by it. he is doing something constructive, and he is really working with full heart. the country is beautiful. we have gone on trips, he takes me whenever possible and he is really doing something constructive. by people's ignorance it reflects on us, and he may lose the whole thing. is there anyway in the future, can i discuss it with the fbi, if they want to know anything they want to know, do it in a more discreet way, because it definitely affects the businesswise, especially george, you know, he is foreign born. he has a long, long name. he looks a little bit like a german, you know. everything is against foreigners, let's put it that way, and it is difficult, very, very difficult. for no reason at all, we have all the time the kicks back to us, and when the man from the fbi came over to port-au-prince, you know, and he made the remark, "why don't you like the fbi, george, why don't you like fbi?" i told him why we don't like fbi and we have good reasons, because you hurt us. you hurt us very much for no reason at all, asking people questions, and people beginning to think why would a person that is nice and quiet make people ask questions about this person? the minute somebody starts asking questions, it means something to it. that is what happens. how can we avoid it? how can it be stopped? mr. jenner. we will see what we can do about it. mrs. de mohrenschildt. really, i mean you are aware, maybe you can in conjunction, do something about it because i do understand that we should have secret service but let's have a little more secret. it is not secret enough if they just go and openly ask all the time about the character of the person, personality or this and that, you know. that leaves a very bad reflection and it could be that we wouldn't be able to see the little girl. we are going back to haiti. it could be right now we will be hurt by it. i told george, "are you sure he told you the fbi came to see?" he said, "yes," so here we are. that is one thing. we will do anything we can do to help because it is our duty and i cannot say it is a pleasure, but we are glad to do anything we can, but we cannot be hurt like that because george would lose that now, you know we will be in a rough spot again until something else come up and nobody knows when it will come up. for me, right now it is very difficult in designing because i don't like to live in new york. in new york i can have fantastic job in minutes, but i don't want to live in new york, i don't like the climate, and in dallas people are so narrowminded, you know. now that we knew oswalds you know they really think we are boogeyman or something. so it is really rough for both of us, and we are very anxious that something would be done that wouldn't affect us in haiti, let's put it, at the moment, and in future, especially with george's little girl. if you can do anything about it, we would greatly appreciate it. mr. jenner. thank you very much. mrs. de mohrenschildt. you want the addresses? mr. jenner. no; those names will be sufficient for us. our procedure is that you may read your deposition if you wish, and then sign it. but you may also waive that. you don't have to do it unless you wish. your husband decided that he might be curious enough to read his deposition, but if he didn't appear today that that meant he waived the necessity of reading it. mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes; he is too busy. he has so many little things to do. mr. jenner. would you like to handle it the way he has handled it? mrs. de mohrenschildt. i am sure, because if something was not just exactly so, i don't think it really matters. mr. jenner. these men are quite competent and they take down everything. mrs. de mohrenschildt. that is wonderful. mr. jenner. then you will waive your reading and signing? mrs. de mohrenschildt. yes. do you want me to sign it? does it have to be signed? mr. jenner. no; not unless you insist on it. mrs. de mohrenschildt. i don't care. it doesn't matter one way or the other. mr. jenner. thank you very, very much. testimony of ruth hyde paine the testimony of ruth hyde paine was taken at : a.m., on march , , at maryland avenue ne., washington, d.c., by messrs. albert e. jenner, jr., and norman redlich, assistant counsels of the president's commission. mr. jenner. let the record show that this is a continuation by deposition pursuant to leave granted by the commission of mrs. paine's testimony before the commission which we had concluded late in the day yesterday.[ ] [ ] the testimony of mrs. ruth paine given before the commission appears in another volume, and can be found by consulting the index. i think it might be well, in view of that transition, if mrs. paine were sworn again, or if you were affirmed, rather. the reporter. do you affirm that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mrs. paine. i do. mr. jenner. i think we might cover your background to some extent, mrs. paine. mr. jenner. my material indicates that you were born in new york city. mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. in . mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and you remained in new york city until when? mrs. paine. i think that time i stayed about weeks, just long enough to get out of the hospital. mr. jenner. i see. immediately after your birth, or substantially so? mrs. paine. my family moved to new jersey. mr. jenner. and your family moved to new jersey. and you lived where? mrs. paine. i believe it was park ridge, n.j. we had lived there before, i remember. mr. jenner. but do you recall then moving from park ridge, n.j.? mrs. paine. no; i first recall living in the country not far from freehold, n.j. mr. jenner. but you did eventually move to columbus, ohio? mrs. paine. we moved back to new york when i was , and from new york then moved to columbus, ohio. mr. jenner. and what age were you when you moved to columbus, ohio? mrs. paine. i must have been or about to be . mr. jenner. and you attended elementary schools and high school in columbus? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. is my information correct that you entered antioch college at antioch, ohio, in ? mrs. paine. in yellow springs, ohio, in . mr. jenner. was it? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and you eventually received a degree from antioch college? mrs. paine. i did, in . mr. jenner. you might state for the record what the character of antioch college is. it is special in some respect, isn't it? mrs. paine. yes; it has a work-study plan, whereby the students study a portion of the year and then go to jobs all over the country, to work in special fields, a job of their own interest, and the college helps to obtain these positions. mr. jenner. and do you receive any kind of credit? mrs. paine. in order to graduate, you have to have both credit in the academic work and credit from your job placements. mr. jenner. does antioch college--i know you said you were of the quaker faith--does antioch college have any connection with the quaker faith? mrs. paine. no; it doesn't. mr. jenner. what was your major at antioch college? mrs. paine. i majored in education. mr. jenner. and seeking to prepare yourself as a teacher? mrs. paine. that is correct. mr. jenner. and did you pursue that major or at least activities in connection with that major in your cooperative work? mrs. paine. yes; i did. i was also interested in group work and in recreation work, but there was no major in that field at antioch, so my job placements were a combination of both work in elementary schools and group work. mr. jenner. and have you pursued, really pursued your interests in group work ever since? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. or group activities, at least? mrs. paine. i pursued the dual interest of education and group work, yes, in the jobs i have sought. mr. jenner. you had by that time already embraced the quaker faith, hadn't you, when you entered antioch, at the time you entered antioch college? mrs. paine. at the time i entered i was not yet a member. i joined in the winter of , so it was still a year and a quarter before i became a member. mr. jenner. you mentioned yesterday. was that a---- mrs. paine. that was when i first became acquainted with the quakers and their beliefs, and i was active in attending the friends meeting in columbus from that time on. mr. jenner. now, these cooperative studies, my information indicates that in the first quarter of , that is, january through march, you were recreation instructor and a leader in the jewish community at indianapolis, ind. mrs. paine. that is correct. mr. jenner. and do i correctly summarize in capsule form the nature of your work at the jewish community center in indianapolis? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. that is recreation instructor and leader? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. then in the summer of you were a camp counselor at big eagle camp at indianapolis, ind.? mrs. paine. that is correct. mr. jenner. also, apparently--i am not certain of this--that during the summer of you served as a recreation leader of the american friends service committee? mrs. paine. no; that would have been the following summer. mr. jenner. that would be ? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and where did that take place? mrs. paine. with the american friends service committee? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. paine. that was in rapid city, s. dak., as part of an american friends service committee work camp. mr. jenner. and then in the fall quarter , that is october, apparently, through january , and then march through may of you were a recreation instructor and a leader in the downtown community school in new york city, n.y.; is that correct? mrs. paine. that is after reentering antioch. mr. jenner. yes. mrs. paine. right. the job you describe was part of my work placement from antioch college. mr. jenner. yes; i had so understood. mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. thank you. and then the quarter october through december you were a recreation leader at the jewish community center in the city of columbus recreation department. do i have those correctly stated? mrs. paine. that was a period of weeks; yes. mr. jenner. and was your position a position of recreation leader? mrs. paine. yes; it was. mr. jenner. and that was part of the cooperative schedule; was it? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. then september and october and january through march you were an elementary school teacher at the mad river township school, dayton, ohio. mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. what did you teach? mrs. paine. i taught first graders. i particularly had the slow learning class. mr. jenner. and that was part of the cooperative program at antioch; was it? mrs. paine. yes; it was. mr. jenner. then in the summer of , june and july, my notes indicate a summer tour with the american friends service committee; is that correct? mrs. paine. yes; i recall that. mr. jenner. would you state what the nature of that was? mrs. paine. it was not with the american friends service committee; it was with a different group of friends, with the friends---- mr. jenner. excuse me--friends in this connection is spelled with a capital f? forgive my interruption. mrs. paine. yes, this was a tour sponsored by the friends world committee. we did some traveling and the tour included a summer term at pendle hill. mr. jenner. where is pendle hill? mrs. paine. pendle hill is in the philadelphia suburban area, and it is a school for religious and social studies maintained by the society of friends, quakers. mr. jenner. is it all one word, pendlehill, or two words? mrs. paine. two words. mr. jenner. you told us yesterday that in the summer of you were a delegate to--state it again. mrs. paine. the friends world conference, at oxford. mr. jenner. oxford, england? mrs. paine. england. mr. jenner. and you also attended---- mrs. paine. a young friends conference. mr. jenner. at reading, england. mrs. paine. right. mr. jenner. then the period august through may , you were associated with the young men's hebrew association and the young women's hebrew association of philadelphia, pa.? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. and you were particularly given an assignment, and i may say everybody anticipated it being a difficult one, of working with the golden age club. is that correct? mrs. paine. yes; i had three club assignments and this was the one that took the most time. mr. jenner. would you please tell us what those assignments were? you say there were three. mrs. paine. yes; i worked with the golden age club as you have already said, with a group of young adults, and also with an open lounge, recreation lounge with games and playing cards, newspapers, for members' use. mr. jenner. i think it would profit us in bringing out your background if you take those three groups and in capsule form tell us what your work in connection with those groups was. take the golden age club first. they were a group of what people? mrs. paine. the golden age club consisted of people over the age of , all of them jewish. mr. jenner. were they all emigres? mrs. paine. to the best of my knowledge, all or certainly nearly all were emigres. in fact, most of them had come from, a good many of them had come from kiev, and they had come around the turn of the century. mr. jenner. that is a city in russia? mrs. paine. yes; and they spoke yiddish in conducting their business meetings, to one another, although since most of them, all of them had been in this country for a long time they understood english and spoke it. there were some who did not read and write english, and i undertook to teach a few. mr. jenner. what was your particular activity in connection with this group? mrs. paine. i was to help them in achieving their plans for parties and club activities and to act as liaison between the club and the y, which sponsored the club. mr. jenner. were these elderly people, set in their ways, who avoided change? mrs. paine. i felt it would be quite a remarkable group of very interesting people, and very able people. i felt that as a club leader i didn't really need to do much more than stay out of their way and help them in communication between one another and specifically in communication between the club and the organization, the y. mr. jenner. in general, what was their view towards the united states of america, as a group? mrs. paine. oh, they loved america very much. they raised their families here. mr. jenner. that is the first of those three groups. mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. what was the next? mrs. paine. the second was the group of young adults that met once a week. mr. jenner. did they have any particular characteristic other than that they were a group of young adults? mrs. paine. they were a group of older young adults. they particularly needed to make social contact and some of them just to learn how to date and meet. mr. jenner. were they likewise people who had come from russia or poland? mrs. paine. no, no; they had been born here. mr. jenner. they were apparently disadvantaged in some respect. would you indicate what that was? mrs. paine. i felt they were not as able a group. the individuals in the group were not as able as the ones in the golden age club, and they needed a great deal of help in their planning and in achieving simple party. mr. jenner. your work actually was group activity, singing groups, dancing groups or activities, rather, was it? mrs. paine. not particularly singing and dancing. again, of course, it was liaison between this club and the y. but leadership here was more in the role of enabling them to achieve what they wanted than being the visible head of the group. the group had its own president and officers. mr. jenner. did you have to do any teaching in connection with either the golden age or the young adults group? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. the third was, i think you described it, as the lounge. mrs. paine. yes; it was an informal lounge for members of the y. they could come in and play chess, checkers, talk, read magazines. this required the least from me in the leadership. mr. jenner. it was in this connection that you acquired some interest, or at least you attempted to acquire a facility in the yiddish language? mrs. paine. yes; because of my work with the golden age club. i had already studied some german so that i understood. the two languages are similar enough that i understood some of the content of their business meeting which they conducted in yiddish. mr. jenner. i have forgotten now, if you will forgive me. by this time had you taken a course in russian at the university? mrs. paine. no; i hadn't. mr. jenner. had these activities at least in part that we have gone through this morning awakened, or stimulated your interest in the study of russian? mrs. paine. no; had these activities? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. paine. stimulated my interest? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. i will jump way back now, go backward a little bit to your pre-antioch college period of activity. do you recall that as early as -- , that you were part of or at least engaged in the activities of the world truck farm in elyria, ohio? mrs. paine. wolfe is the name. it is the man's name; the owner's name; wolfe truck farm. mr. jenner. this was a private---- mrs. paine. it is just a private farm; yes. mr. jenner. i thought it was an activity, and it arose out of the fact that the word "world" instead of "wolfe" was furnished to me. mrs. paine. oh, no. mr. jenner. mr. wolfe's truck farm? mrs. paine. it was. this was a group of girls and all from columbus, ohio, all from the school i was just entering at that time, and at a time when labor was very hard to find, just at the end of the war. mr. jenner. you say entering a school at that time. mrs. paine. i was about to enter high school. mr. jenner. that was high school? mrs. paine. and we earned a small amount for our work there, and we felt patriotic in helping to supply labor where it was needed, because so many of the young men were away at war, or in the army. mr. jenner. do you recall that in you served as a teacher in the friends vacation bible school? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. tell us a little bit about that. mrs. paine. this is the same summer when i was first introduced to friends activities, and i was asked to be a leader, a teacher with a traveling bible school. we went to three different small towns in indiana and ohio, and taught young children. i led songs and games and read stories. mr. jenner. so at this time you were years old, or , right in there? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. in you served as a leader in craftwork at the presbyterian bible school in columbus, ohio? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. tell us a little bit more about that activity. mrs. paine. it was similar to what i had done the year before. i had enjoyed it the previous summer and looked for bible school work then in columbus. you have described it entirely. it was working with crafts and---- mr. jenner. excuse me. did i interrupt you? mrs. paine. working with children in crafts with them. mr. jenner. also in you were an assistant in children's physical education work at the universal school, columbus, ohio? mrs. paine. university. mr. jenner. university, was it? mrs. paine. this was the school i attended. mr. jenner. that was your high school? mrs. paine. this was the high school. mr. jenner. but you also served as assistant in the children's physical education activities? mrs. paine. yes; i did. mr. jenner. do you recall that in you were a leader and counselor to underprivileged children, a children's club group in columbus, ohio? mrs. paine. yes; i was. mr. jenner. would you describe that more fully and also what the particular group was? mrs. paine. it was exactly as you have described it, a group of underprivileged children. we were without an agency in particular, and no particular place to meet, but we met in the homes of the families. this was basically sponsored by the families. mr. jenner. by the families themselves? mrs. paine. yes; and i had volunteered to a friend of mine who had worked with these families previously, to lead a weekly club group meeting, and, again, the activities were songs and dancing and craftwork. i guess not dancing--more likely stories. mr. jenner. were these quite young children? mrs. paine. they ranged in age from, perhaps, or to . i had a helper who was . mr. jenner. did you do some teaching at pendle hill eventually? mrs. paine. no; i did not. mr. jenner. you did not? mrs. paine. you have not mentioned one time when i attended. i attended in the---- mr. jenner. i meant to ask you if i had left out anything. mrs. paine. i attended pendle hill first in the fall of , for the fall term. mr. jenner. that ran over a little bit into , didn't it? mrs. paine. no; it closed with the christmas holidays. mr. jenner. did you return to the friends school or pendle hill and do some work in ? mrs. paine. you are talking about pendle hill? i don't recall; no. i may have occasionally attended a lecture, but that is different. mr. jenner. i think we might help this way. you were married to michael r. paine on the th of december, ? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. in what activity were you engaged at that time? mrs. paine. i was teaching school at the germantown friends school. germantown is a section of philadelphia. mr. jenner. when had you commenced that activity, that is, teaching at germantown friends school? mrs. paine. i began in the fall of , worked there to and to school years. mr. jenner. what did you do? what was your work? mrs. paine. i was the playground director and rhythm and dance teacher for grades through . mr. jenner. during all of that period? mrs. paine. during those years. mr. jenner. did the germantown friends school have anything to do with pendle hill? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. i see. that is where my confusion arose. mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. you have already mentioned you attended various friends conferences over this period of years, did you not? mrs. paine. yes; i did. mr. jenner. and you maintained a lively interest in the activities of the friends conferences, especially the young people's groups? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. you already mentioned or made some reference to a friends conference at quaker haven, ind., september , i believe in your testimony, have you not? mrs. paine. i think it would have been august. mr. jenner. august ? mrs. paine. it has to have been before school started. mr. jenner. was it with respect to this conference that you mentioned the young friends of north america meetings, and that you were active in that group, and that group was interested in easing the tensions between the east and the west? mrs. paine. it was a subcommittee of that group that had that particular interest. mr. jenner. and out of this interest and activity arose the russian pen pal activity and bringing of some russian students over to america to see and observe america? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. i won't go into that. i think we covered it enough yesterday. mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. would you say that was your initial interest in the russian language or at least the pursuit of the study of the russian language arose about that time? mrs. paine. my interest arose about that time. pursuit didn't begin until later. mr. jenner. in some of the materials i have seen there is mention of a young friends meeting or conference at earlham college in richmond, ind. i think you made some reference to that yesterday, did you not? mrs. paine. there was a conference, a young friends conference at earlham in . that was the first one i ever attended. is that---- mr. jenner. no; well, i don't wish to say that isn't so, but you did attend another one in - , along in that time, didn't you? mrs. paine. there are a great many meetings for the young friends committee of north america, and they were commonly held at earlham college, but they were not conferences. mr. jenner. i see. i am using the wrong terminology. mrs. paine. yes; these were committee meetings and there were a number of them. mr. jenner. this was in further pursuit of the exchange of the interest by pen pal letters and otherwise between young people in america and young people in russia? mrs. paine. this would have been one of the subjects of the committee meeting. mr. jenner. is there, or was there a russian friends group in wallingford, in philadelphia? mrs. paine. you mean people who were both russian and quakers? mr. jenner. i am not too sure just what i do mean, because my information is so limited. mrs. paine. it brings nothing to my mind. mr. jenner. it does not? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. it would appear that this was, my notes are a little garbled, i see, that the three soviet students to whom you made reference yesterday came over here in . is that correct? mrs. paine. that fits with my memory of it. mr. jenner. and it was the young friends group in which you were interested which stimulated, in cooperation with the state department, as i recall it, the bringing of these three young soviet students over here? mrs. paine. we sought advice from the state department; yes; and from the american friends service committee, also. mr. jenner. and we covered that yesterday so we needn't trouble you with it again. your only participation or contact with these three soviet students, i understand from your testimony, was you attended one meeting--was it a dinner--and you had no other contacts with them, either before or after? mrs. paine. that is correct. mr. jenner. they went on from--where was this, in philadelphia? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and they went on from there to see other parts of america? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. have you ever met knowingly, that is, that you knew, any native russian people other than these three russian students and marina, that is to say up to november ---- mrs. paine. you mean people who had been born there? mr. jenner. yes. well, of course, your golden age group. there were some who had been born in russia. mrs. paine. a great many. i am not certain where mrs. gravitis was born. i think she was born in latvia. any such contact was certainly in very brief passing, as, for instance, i met a group that had come to dallas to play chamber music. they were all from soviet armenia, and talked with these people. that was a year ago. but if there were any other contacts they were of that sort. mr. jenner. have you, in these long tedious days that we have had with you, pretty well exhausted all of your contacts with any native russians or any russians who were naturalized americans, and indicated the character of your contacts with them? mrs. paine. yes; i believe so. mr. jenner. you are perfectly free to add any others, if you wish. mrs. paine. i don't think of any particular contact. mr. jenner. would it be a fair summary on my part to say that your contact with these people had been largely either in connection with your interest in the quaker friends groups and their activities, and your work in furthering their activities, your avid interest in the study of and improvement of your command of the russian language and then your contacts with marina oswald and lee oswald? mrs. paine. i would say it was mostly the latter. i met very few native russians through my interest in friends, but through being interested in russian there were a good many native russians at the middlebury college, for instance, and the berlitz teachers have to speak natively whether or not they were born in russia, so that these would be my contacts. mr. jenner. your pen pal correspondent in russia, at least the second one, was nina atarina? mrs. paine. aparina, a-p-a-r-i-n-a. mr. jenner. and she is the school teacher? mrs. paine. she is. mr. jenner. and you haven't heard from her in, did you say, or months? mrs. paine. it would be a year, i am quite certain. mr. jenner. mrs. paine, in your own words would you tell us something about your father and mother, your family generally, their interests? put it in your own words. we are just trying to supply a background. mrs. paine. i can start most easily with their present activities. my mother has just completed work for a bachelor of divinity from oberlin college in ohio. she has already been ordained as a minister of the unitarian church. she hopes to do work as a chaplain in a hospital, and toward that end has more weeks training to complete in inservice training in a hospital. my father is working for a nationwide insurance co. he has been on special assignment from them to--i am not certain of the name of the organization--to cooperative alliance in europe. mr. jenner. that is a cooperative alliance of insurance companies? mrs. paine. having to do with insurance; yes. mr. jenner. insurance companies? mrs. paine. yes; that is my understanding. mr. jenner. this is a commercial activity, isn't it? mrs. paine. yes; i believe so. and---- mr. jenner. excuse me. the cooperative alliance in europe, does that include any iron curtain countries? mrs. paine. no. he is presently teaching a course at ohio state university, and is on loan for that portion of time which he occupies with teaching from his regular job at nationwide, although he is at the company most of the time. mr. jenner. what is the subject he is teaching? mrs. paine. it has to do with insurance. mr. jenner. you start out at the end rather than the beginning, mrs. paine. we don't want to go too far back, but let's go back to your high school days. was your father an insurance---- mrs. paine. he worked for the same company then. mr. jenner. the same company, in columbus, ohio? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. have your parents had any interests in political matters? mrs. paine. yes. most of that interest i absorbed from hearing it told about, rather than being around when it was going on. most of the activity was in new york and, as i have said, i moved weeks after i was born from new york. but they have always been interested in what is called the cooperative movement. mr. jenner. tell me what you understand---- mrs. paine. my understanding is that the consumer owns the business. in other words, holds the shares, the stock that control, and determine the management of the business, and share in the profits. mr. jenner. is that something like what i would call a farmers cooperative? mrs. paine. i don't know what farmers cooperative is. mr. jenner. would you describe what you understand the cooperative movement is? mrs. paine. i think consumers cooperative is somewhat different. i am not certain what farmers cooperative is. i know that they were interested in and voted for norman thomas when they were in new york. mr. jenner. have you ever had any interests of that nature, that is an active political interest in a political party? for example, the socialist party of which mr. thomas was the head, or leader? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. i take it from this thumbnail sketch of your life up to the present moment, your interests were largely in the friends and recreation for underprivileged children, people who needed help. your interests were in the social area, but not a political party interest. mrs. paine. that is a correct statement. mr. jenner. how would you describe your family from the standpoint of their social standing or their financial standing? were they people of modest means? mrs. paine. yes. my family was middle income who spent rather more money on education and good medical care than most people in our income. mr. jenner. and they were modest in their tastes, i gather this, frankly, from reading the correspondence between your parents and yourself. i mean modest in their material tastes. mrs. paine. oh, yes; and certainly the means were modest. mr. jenner. i gather from reading some of the letters and some of the reports of interviews with others, and may i say to you, mrs. paine, that the people with whom you have been in contact over the years think very well of you, and particularly your activities in connection with the friends and your teaching and recreation, would you say that the pattern of your life has been one of seeking to help others and of the giving of yourself to others in that respect? mrs. paine. yes; i think that is a fair statement. mr. jenner. would you be good enough, if i am not pressing you too much, to indicate what your philosophy of life is in that general connection? mrs. paine. i believe in doing as the soul prompts, and proceeding to help or offer help if the desire to do so comes from within me. it is not an ideology that i am following here, but a desire to live the best possible life i can, and to always seek to understand what that best life is. mr. jenner. have you finished? mrs. paine. i have a lot of thoughts about the problems of helping anyone, and about the possibility of self-deception or false pride that can enter, if you help someone because you think you should or from something outside an inner feeling that this is what you want to do. but i don't think i have to discuss it more fully than that. mr. jenner. return a moment to your conference with mr. hosty, on the first of november . you have had time to search your own mind as to whether it occurred actually on the first of november, and what time of the day it was marina testified, and this is for the purpose of refreshing your recollection if it does--i will read it back a little bit, she was shown lee's diary and the entry to which we called your attention yesterday in that diary. she was asked, "did you report to your husband the fact of this visit november with the fbi agent?" she responded: "i didn't report it to him at once, but as soon as he came for a weekend i told him about it." then she added voluntarily: "by the way, on that day he was due to arrive--that is november . mr. rankin said: "that is on november ?" she said: "yes." she said, "lee comes off work at : , comes from work at : . they left at o'clock," meaning the agents, "and we told them if they wanted they could wait and lee would be here soon, but they didn't want to wait." does that refresh your recollection in that connection? mrs. paine. it may certainly have happened that way. my recollection stands as i told it yesterday. mr. jenner. that it was more toward the middle of the afternoon? mrs. paine. yes, : or : . mr. jenner. and did you advise them, or do you have a recollection of having advised them that he was expected later that day for the weekend? mrs. paine. i only recall that i said he came on weekends or would be available to be seen here at my home, in other words, on weekends. mr. jenner. she also has a recollection that at this particular visit there was only one agent rather than two. mrs. paine. that is my recollection, also. mr. jenner. that is your recollection? mrs. paine. yes; it is. mr. jenner. and that was mr. hosty? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. it could have been, mrs. paine, but your recollection doesn't serve you sufficiently at the moment, that mr. hosty was advised on the occasion of that conference that lee oswald was expected that particular weekend? mrs. paine. it could have been. mr. jenner. yes. that is, you don't want to take issue with marina's testimony? mrs. paine. oh, i don't; no. mr. jenner. it possibly could have happened that way? mrs. paine. it certainly could have. mr. jenner. but, in any event, you do remember clearly and distinctly that you advised mr. hosty that lee did visit on weekends and that mr. hosty could return the next weekend or even this particular weekend to see lee oswald if he wished? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. in any event, you further advised him at that time that he was employed at the texas school book depository? mrs. paine. i did indeed. may i interrupt? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. paine. could we have a short break? (brief recess.) mr. jenner. during the course of the interview on november , was there any reference to lee's having passed out leaflets for the fpcc? mrs. paine. yes; i believe so. mr. jenner. and was there any inquiry as to whether lee was engaging in or had engaged or was engaging in similar activity in the dallas-irving-fort worth area? mrs. paine. there was reference to it, i suppose in the nature of an inquiry. i don't recall. mr. jenner. does this refresh your recollection that marina said through you that lee was not engaging in such activities in the dallas-irving-fort worth area? mrs. paine. that seems correct to me. mr. jenner. marina was present, was she, at a subsequent interview on the th of november? mrs. paine. no; she was not. mr. jenner. she was not? she likewise describes the november interview similarly as you did, that it was in the nature of a conversation rather than an interview. that was your impression, was it not? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. did your brother ever engage in any political activity? mrs. paine. i don't recall it offhand. mr. jenner. your sister, sylvia? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. or her husband? mrs. paine. no. i am sure they all vote when the opportunity affords. mr. jenner. oh, yes; of course. mrs. paine. but you don't mean that? mr. jenner. i don't mean that. i mean active political party activity of some kind. mrs. paine. i don't have any specific recollection. mr. jenner. and you never did? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. is your brother a member of the american civil liberties union? mrs. paine. i don't know. mr. jenner. or your sister? mrs. paine. i don't know. mr. jenner. is your sister active as you are or a member of the league of women voters? mrs. paine. i don't know that. mr. jenner. your relations with your mother and your father--would you say you were rather close to your father and your mother? mrs. paine. yes, i am close to both of them. i am particularly close to my mother. mr. jenner. and is that likewise true of your brother and your sister, you have a close relation with your folks? mrs. paine. i think i have the closest relation to my mother, and possibly my brother and sister-in-law, who are near in ohio, are closer to my father, and i just can't say as to my sister's relationship, meaning i don't know. mr. jenner. the relationships between yourself, your brother, your sister, your mother and your father, you are compatible? you are interested in each other's activities? mrs. paine. that is correct. mr. jenner. do you exchange correspondence? mrs. paine. we do, and photographs of the children. mr. jenner. and you have a lively interest in what each is doing, and they in you? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and that has always been true, has it not? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and do you exchange your troubles and your interests with each other? mrs. paine. when we visit. we are, none of us, terribly good letterwriters. mr. jenner. from what i have seen i would take exception. i think you are too modest. there has been a good deal of letterwriting. mrs. paine. there has been a good deal of correspondence over the years; yes. mr. jenner. and at least until recently, i don't know if you still do it, you were inclined to retain the originals of that correspondence and also copies of your letters, were you not? mrs. paine. for a goodly portion of the correspondence; yes. mr. jenner. now, i have, which i will mark only for identification, three file cases of correspondence of your themes or writings in college. you might be better able to describe what is in these boxes than i in the way of general summary. would you do so? mrs. paine. it also includes information helpful to me in recreation leadership, games, something of songs. it includes a list of the people to whom i sent birth announcements, things of that nature. mr. jenner. it covers a span of years going back to your college days? mrs. paine. and a few papers prior to college. mr. jenner. i have marked these boxes for identification numbers , , and . during my meeting with you wednesday morning, i exhibited the contents of those boxes to you, and are the materials in the boxes other than material which is printed or is obviously from some other source that which purports to be in your handwriting, actually in your handwriting? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and those pieces of correspondence which purport to be letters from your mother, your father, your brother, and your sister are likewise the originals of those letters? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and the copies of letters which purport to be letters from you to your mother, father, sister, and brother, and in some instances others are copies of letters that you dispatched? mrs. paine. that is right. (discussion off the record.) mr. jenner. back on the record, please. we asked you yesterday if you loaned any money to marina or to lee oswald, and your answer was in the negative. mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. we asked you if you had given any money to either of them, and your answer was in the negative, that is, cash. mrs. paine. i gave no cash. mr. jenner. you gave no cash to either. what do you know about expenditures by lee oswald for such items as bus fare from dallas to irving and from irving back to dallas while looking for employment? mrs. paine. i recall taking him to the bus station once and picking him up once. there may have been another occasion, but my specific recollection is as to these two times. mr. jenner. just those two times? you already told us about the time he went to new orleans, he bought two bus tickets and then he cashed in one. that was in the spring. mrs. paine. that was in late april. mr. jenner. the same question with respect to telephone calls. you have already told us that was not a toll call from dallas to irving. mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. did he make telephone calls while he was at your home at any time? mrs. paine. nothing except this one i have mentioned, the time and temperature. mr. jenner. what recollection did you have with respect to this purchasing of food for meals and whatnot either in new orleans, dallas, or in irving? mrs. paine. in new orleans he purchased all the food that we used while there. in irving, then after october i saw him buy a few items for the baby or for june, things that marina had requested, but no groceries. mr. jenner. now the same question with respect to clothing for himself, for marina, and for june and rachel. you have told us about the one instance in which he gave marina some money to buy shoes for june, which was---- mrs. paine. no, the shoes were for marina. mr. jenner. were for marina, and this had occurred during the week of the assassination? mrs. paine. our plan was to go out on friday afternoon, the d of november, to buy these shoes. just when he gave her the money, i am not certain. and these, of course, were not bought. i can think of nothing that was bought. yes, one thing. when she was with me in the spring, late april to the th of may, she had some money from lee for her own expenses, and she used a portion of this, i would think a rather large portion, buying a pair of maternity shorts, or they may have been bermuda shorts, longer than that, slacks, even, possibly, but i know they cost nearly $ , and this was quite a large expenditure and quite a thrill. these were bought in irving. mr. jenner. was it your impression that they had or at least that marina was afforded very limited funds? mrs. paine. that is distinctly my impression. mr. jenner. they never paid you anything, in any event? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. now, the same question with respect to laundry. that would be his laundry largely. i take it from your telling us about you and marina hanging up clothes in your backyard on the d of november that neither you nor she ever sent any laundry out for cleaning or washing. mrs. paine. no; and lee brought his underwear and shirts to be washed at my house, and then marina ironed his things and he would take clean things with him on monday. mr. jenner. so that as far as you recall, he made no expenditures for laundry? mrs. paine. that is correct. mr. jenner. at least during the time that marina was with you. mrs. paine. at least during the fall; yes. mr. jenner. any expenditures on his part to have his hair cut, that is, any expenditures to the barber, to a barber? mrs. paine. i guess there must have been such. i don't recall it having been mentioned. i certainly wasn't around. mr. jenner. we did ask you yesterday something about some local barber who seemed to think that lee had called regularly on fridays or saturday morning at the barber shop. your impression of that is that that was not lee who did that. mrs. paine. that is my impression. mr. jenner. in any event, you don't recall him ever buddying with or having a -year-old boy with whom he went around while he was in irving? mrs. paine. i certainly do not recall. mr. jenner. would your recollection be to the contrary, that he did not? mrs. paine. my recollection is distinctly to the contrary. mr. jenner. now, do you recall that he ever purchased any records, that is playing records, songs? mrs. paine. no; i recall no such. mr. jenner. the purchase of camera film and the development of camera film? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. you are aware from reports of marina's testimony that she took some pictures of him? mrs. paine. i read in the paper. mr. jenner. was there any picturetaking during the period, during the fall of , either in new orleans or in irving or in dallas? mrs. paine. not by either lee or marina that i heard of. mr. jenner. and did you hear any conversation between them in your presence or with you with respect to his or they having a snapshot camera or other type of camera to take pictures? mrs. paine. no; the only reference to a camera was made by lee when he held up and showed me a camera he had bought in the soviet union and said he couldn't buy film for it in this country, it was a different size. mr. jenner. did they ever exhibit any snapshots to you? mrs. paine. yes; a few snapshots taken in minsk. mr. jenner. but no snapshots of any scenes in america that they had taken? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. or people? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. what is your impression as to whether lee gave marina any fixed or regular sum of money, by the week or the month? mrs. paine. when she was with me, she received no such regular sum of money. mr. jenner. have you now told us all you can recall as to funds given by lee to marina? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. is hutch's market--is that something familiar to you? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. is that a local grocery store or delicatessen store? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. in irving? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. do you recall an occasion when lee took marina to hutch's market to purchase some groceries? mrs. paine. i don't recall such an occasion. i do recall that marina and i, or perhaps it was only i went in and bought milk there. i think this was on our way to my house on the th of april. but it is not the store i usually go to, and i am quite certain it is--it is too far to walk--i am quite certain---- mr. jenner. how far away is the place? mrs. paine. it would be a -minute drive--about blocks. mr. jenner. ten blocks away? mrs. paine. something like that. mr. jenner. is it further away than the---- mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. than the market of which you spoke where you took lee to---- mrs. paine. it is a little closer than that but blocks in irving are not well defined, i might say, so it is hard to say. mr. jenner. when lee came to your home on weekends, did he eat all of his meals there at your home? mr. paine. yes; he did. mr. jenner. i have already questioned you about breakfast. he always had his breakfast at your home but it consisted primarily of merely a cup of coffee? mrs. paine. he would eat a sweet roll if there was one. mr. jenner. on occasion did he pack a lunch? mrs. paine. i remember one occasion when marina packed a lunch or packed some food for him to take. mr. jenner. would you say there was anything regular about that? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. any effort on her part to prepare a packet of lunch for him? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. you recall only that one occasion? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. did he ever discuss any finances in your presence? mrs. paine. i have already testified that we once in new orleans, in september, discussed where he had worked and how to establish his residence in texas. this involved giving me the remaining portion from a paycheck from the place where he had worked, and he discussed how much he was earning per hour at the two places he worked, the three places he worked when i knew him. but beyond that, i don't recall. mr. jenner. have you told us all the discussions that occurred between you and marina with respect to their financial position and their finances and finances generally? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. do you know what the busfare is from dallas to irving? mrs. paine. no; i don't. mr. jenner. i will exhibit to you transcripts of three letters that you wrote your mother, which she permitted an agent of the fbi to copy. i am going to mark those three transcripts exhibit for identification. they appear as pages , , and of a report of agents wilson and anderson, dated december , . (the documents referred to were marked "ruth paine exhibit ," for identification.) mr. jenner. the first of those is a "dear mom" letter dated september . i take it that was september , . perhaps i should go at it this way. do you recall that letter? mrs. paine. i recall that letter. mr. jenner. and was it in ? mrs. paine. yes; it was. mr. jenner. i wish to call your attention to a couple portions of the letter and ask you a question or two. in the second paragraph which i have underlined for my notes it reads: "he has been out of work"--i will read the whole paragraph. "to my surprise lee was willing for marina to come here to have the baby." that is irving, tex.? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. "even grateful." then you say, "he has been out of work since august, and their income was $ a week unemployment compensation, not much." now, this letter was written from where and followed what event? mrs. paine. this was written from irving on september , and it followed our arrival in irving on the th of september. mr. jenner. from new orleans? mrs. paine. from new orleans. i had forgotten that i had heard the sum or the amount of money he was receiving in unemployment compensation. mr. jenner. but this does not refresh your recollection? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. it does? mrs. paine. it refreshes my recollection that my mother has shown me the same letter. i registered the same surprise then. i had quite forgotten that sum. mr. jenner. now, in the next paragraph it says: "but i feel now that he does want to keep his family together, and will send for them as soon as possible." that was your feeling at that time? mrs. paine. it certainly was. mr. jenner. after new orleans? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. now, you will notice in the letter, you say: "i spoke both to lee and to marina of my expectation that you would be here february to june. lee asked how this would affect marina's tenure, and i said she can have a place as long as they have need for it." mrs. paine. right. mr. jenner. now was there, then, at that time, a feeling or expectation that marina would remain with you possibly for some considerable period of time? mrs. paine. i had not that feeling, as is shown by what is written in the above sentence, that he will send for his family as soon as possible. however, i had made it clear that i was willing for her to stay if that was necessary. mr. jenner. so that the text of that letter was not intended by you to convey the impression that you then expected at least at that time and that lee also might have expected and marina, also, that she would be at your home for any considerable period of time? mrs. paine. i did not expect that. mr. jenner. as to your expectation--was that dependent on his securing employment and sending for her, and at that time both of you, meaning marina and yourself, expected that when he obtained work he would send for marina and they would be together again? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. now, the second letter, which is dated october , , and apparently at your home, it says , it is , isn't it? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. west th street--and it is also a "dear mom" letter. would you look at that and see if you did dispatch that letter to your mother? for the record, mr. reporter, this present letter commences in the middle of page of this document. do you recall the letter? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. now, you report the fact the big news as of that day, that lee had obtained a position. mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. was that his position with the texas school book depository? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. you don't mention the place of work in your letter. mrs. paine. no; i don't. mr. jenner. you go on to say in the second paragraph of the letter: "it is likely that marina will stay on here for some time, perhaps through christmas or new year's anyway, with lee coming weekends as he has the past two." had there been some change now that even though he had a position with the texas school book depository, that marina's joining him was being deferred? mrs. paine. i think that is clear in the next sentence. mr. jenner. all right; read the next sentence. mrs. paine. "he has a room in dallas at $ a week currently, that he'd like to save a bit before getting an apartment, i think, and, of course, marina should be here until she has rested some from childbirth." we talked for some time of her being there both up to the birth of the baby and then for a time after so that i could help her with the care of the house, and with june. mr. jenner. did you have an expectation that that stay might be on into the following year? mrs. paine. no; i did not. mr. jenner. ? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. i notice you say in the last paragraph of this particular letter: "i have mentioned to marina that i'd like to have you here in february and that i have given up the idea of a trailer." mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. now, to me that is an indication that you expected that marina might be with you as late as february . do i misinterpret? in other words, mrs. paine, you were considering the possible difficulties that might arise from the fact that you were expecting your mother. mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. you hoped she might join you in february of , and that marina might still be with you? mrs. paine. i feel that mentioning this to marina was more an indication that it would be difficult for me to have her after february. i didn't make mention of this until such time as it was clear to me they could well get an apartment and support themselves. mr. jenner. and you were thinking in terms that if your mother did come that it would probably be necessary that marina join her husband? mrs. paine. oh, yes. mr. jenner. in dallas? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. during this period of time, did you have any feeling at all that lee was--there might be an anticipation on his part that he would not rejoin marina, or she him, that something might possibly intervene, an action on his part that would keep them separated? mrs. paine. i had no such feeling. mr. jenner. did you have a contrary feeling? mrs. paine. i had a contrary feeling from both, from each. mr. jenner. and what was that? mrs. paine. marina talked to me of her hopes that what problems they had in the marriage would work out, and lee appeared to me happy when he was with marina and june, and glad to see them, and i also felt that marina remained somewhat uncomfortable accepting from someone else, that she preferred the more independent situation. mr. jenner. state? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. but you had no inkling at all or any feeling, the sense on his part either directly from him or through marina that he might not continue in the position, that is the texas school depository or might not continue to live in the dallas area? mrs. paine. i had no such feeling. my expectation was contrary. mr. jenner. when you read commission exhibit , which i have described as the mexico letter that you found on your desk secretary, did you have any feeling after you read that that lee might have in mind going to havana or going back to russia through mexico, or some other manner or means? mrs. paine. no; i really didn't. mr. jenner. did you think that letter was by and large something of a figment of the imagination of lee? mrs. paine. it seemed to me that a goodly portion of it, the part upon which i could judge, was false. mr. jenner. the third of the letters that your mother made available appears on page . it is dated october . i take it from the context of that letter, it was written by you on october , ? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and you recall sending that letter to your mother? mrs. paine. yes; i do. mr. jenner. and it was written after the baby rachel had been born? mrs. paine. yes. what? it was written some time after the baby had been born? mr. jenner. yes, days. one week, as a matter of fact, is that right? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. i offer in evidence as commission exhibit no. the three letters which i have identified and which the witness herself has identified as having been her letters and having been dispatched to her mother. (the documents heretofore marked for identification as ruth paine exhibit no. , were received in evidence.) mr. jenner. i don't know if i asked you if the second and third had actually been dispatched by you. mrs. paine. they had all been dispatched by me, yes. mr. jenner. during the period of your contacts with each of the oswalds, was there any discussion between them in your presence or with you directly by either of them respecting his family and members of his family? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. i should limit that first to up to november , . if so, would your answer be the same? mrs. paine. oh, yes. mr. jenner. and what was that discussion? try and fix the time and places if any particular discussion stands out. mrs. paine. i have already testified to marina's comment on wishing she could reach her mother-in-law to announce the baby's coming birth. marina also talked to me---- mr. jenner. and that lee did not give her the telephone number or advise her of means whereby she could reach her mother-in-law? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. did she indicate to you that he, in turn, had indicated he didn't wish her---- mrs. paine. she indicated that he did not wish to make contact. mr. jenner. did it go beyond that, that he did not wish members of his family to know that the child rachel had been born? mrs. paine. not that specifically. mr. jenner. all right. mrs. paine. marina told of having stayed with lee's brother robert and robert's wife in fort worth. mr. jenner. when they first returned from russia? mrs. paine. that is correct. and of her sorrow that she hadn't been able to talk more, having virtually no english, but that she had liked both of them. i also learned from her that robert had been assigned by the same company for which he worked in fort worth to a different town, i think in alabama for a brief period, and then i heard in october or early november that he had been---- mr. jenner. of ? mrs. paine. yes; that he had been transferred to denton. mr. jenner. denton, tex.? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. anything else? mrs. paine. part of the correspondence that i have given to the commission contains a reference by marina to lee's brother, to the best of my recollection. mr. jenner. brother robert? mrs. paine. i can look that up. it doesn't say. but i assumed so. mr. jenner. are you aware now that lee had two brothers? mrs. paine. i am now aware of that. mr. jenner. were you aware during their contact with you up to november , , that he had two brothers? mrs. paine. i have a vague recollection that marina had mentioned there being another brother, but i am not certain. mr. jenner. did anything occur in the way of conversation or otherwise that brought to your attention the fact, if it be a fact, that lee was avoiding contact with his brother and his mother? mrs. paine. i was under the impression---- mr. jenner. in the fall of ? mrs. paine. i was under the impression that he was not avoiding contact with his brother, but that he was avoiding contact with his mother. mr. jenner. were you aware during this fall period that he was employing a post office box, he had rented a post office box and was using it to receive communications? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. at any time during your acquaintance with the oswalds had anything been said about his renting a post office box? mrs. paine. there was an occasion, i think it must have been after we had been to the bus station on april that he asked to go by the main post office in dallas to pick up some things. that would have implied a post office box there. but that was---- mr. jenner. what date was this? mrs. paine. april , to the best of my recollection. i can't think---- mr. jenner. go ahead. mrs. paine. i recall that i was driving and lee went into this main post office. mr. jenner. where? in dallas? mrs. paine. in dallas, and the only time i can think it could have been was that day. mr. jenner. did he come out with any mail? mrs. paine. magazines, i think. mr. jenner. were you able to observe what those magazines were? mrs. paine. no; i don't recall. mr. jenner. did he ever speak of his life as a youth and a young man? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. or his experiences in the service? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. did you know or were you aware that he had been in the service? mrs. paine. his two large duffels which i saw a number of times said marine corps on them. mr. jenner. was there any discussion of the fact that he had been in the marines? mrs. paine. i think it had been mentioned. i don't specifically recall. mr. jenner. but just in passing, not in the sense of his relating any of his experiences in the marines? mrs. paine. no; i do recall one occasion in late october or early november when marina said to me in the morning that the two of them had had a long and very pleasant conversation. lee related things about his past life, for instance his having been in japan. mr. jenner. did she elaborate? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. just talked in terms of conclusion, that is, that he had related these events to her and they had talked about it for some time? mrs. paine. the point of her telling me of this was that this was unusual. he didn't usually reminisce and converse in this way. mr. jenner. have you had a contact with or she with you, a mrs. shirley martin? mrs. paine. mrs. shirley martin came to visit me at my home, accompanied by her four children, and dog, some time in january-february, i don't know just when. mr. jenner. late january or early february? mrs. paine. i would guess so. mr. jenner. of this year? mrs. paine. of ; yes. mr. jenner. would you please relate that incident to us? mrs. paine. she telephoned to ask if she could come out. mr. jenner. had you known her? mrs. paine. i had not known her. i had heard her name from the new york times correspondent in dallas, who said he had received a letter from her. mr. jenner. all right; proceed. mrs. paine. she came out, told me that she had been in dallas going over the route which lee oswald is supposed to have taken from the school book depository to his rooming house, and thence to the place where he was arrested, and she was in a hurry at that point to get back to suburban tulsa, okla., but wanted to ask me a few questions, and i answered whatever she wanted to know. mr. jenner. do you recall what her questions were? mrs. paine. i don't specifically recall; no. mr. jenner. have you had any correspondence with mrs. martin? mrs. paine. i have answered one of her letters by writing in the margin the answers to the questions that letter posed, and sending the whole thing back to her. mr. jenner. so that you do not have a copy of any correspondence with mrs. martin? mrs. paine. she has sent more than one letter. i said i had answered one and sent it back on that letter. i have perhaps four--no; perhaps as many as eight letters from her now that, some are directly typed and some are just carbons of something she has said to a large group of people. we have also had some communication by telephone. mr. jenner. may i see those letters when i am in dallas monday and tuesday? mrs. paine. you can certainly see them. mr. jenner. would you summarize generally what the inquiries of mrs. martin have been and the subject matter and the nature of your responses? telephone, or otherwise? mrs. paine. i do recall in the initial visit when she was in my home i asked her if she thought lee oswald was not guilty of the crime he is alleged to have committed and she said, well, that she couldn't say that, that it would be foolish at this point in the inquiry to say that, but that she was not satisfied with the evidence that led to a public conclusion that he was guilty. mr. jenner. did you express any opinion on your part? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. on that subject? mrs. paine. i said that i thought he was guilty of the act. mr. jenner. you did not know mrs. martin prior to the time she came to your door? mrs. paine. no; i did not. mr. jenner. and your acquaintance with her in the interim has been limited to what you have testified? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. and you are not working with mrs. martin in her campaign or crusade or whatever it may be? mrs. paine. no; i answer any questions she has just as i do answer questions of newsmen or other people who wish to inquire about what i know. mr. jenner. would you please give me your impression of lee oswald's personality, what you think made him tick, any foibles of his, your overall impression now as you have it sitting there of lee harvey oswald? mrs. paine. my overall impression progressed through several stages. mr. jenner. why don't you give those. i think it would be helpful to us if you would. start at the beginning. mrs. paine. in the spring what i knew of him was that he wanted to send his wife away back to the soviet union, which she didn't want to do, that he would not permit her to learn english or certainly didn't encourage it. i knew that he had lost his job and looked unsuccessfully. i formed an initial negative opinion about him, on really very little personal contact. i saw him very briefly the evening of the d of february, the evening of the second of april, and the afternoon of the th of april, and again on the th of april and so as far as i remember that is virtually all of the contact i had had directly with him. and this impression stayed with me throughout the summer and throughout my visits to various friends and family on my trip of august and september , and i undoubtedly conveyed to the people i talked to during that time that impression, which i carried at that time. when i saw him again in new orleans, beginning the th of september, i was impressed quite differently. he seemed friendly. he seemed grateful, as reported in this letter to my mother, even grateful that i was offering to have his wife in my home and help her make arrangements at parkland hospital to have the baby there, at a fee adjusted to their income. he appeared to me to be happy, called cheerily to marina and june as he came in the house with a bag full of groceries. he, as i described, washed the dishes that evening that marina and i went down to bourbon street. and particularly in parting on the morning of september i felt he was really sorry to see them go. he kissed them both at the house as we first took off and then again when we left from the gas station where i had bought a tire. and i felt, as expressed in this letter that you just showed me to my mother that he hoped to have his family together again as soon as he could. then, of course, the impression enlarged as i saw him in my home on the weekends beginning october , and i have read into the record one letter i wrote to my mother during that period, which shows that he tried to be helpful around the house, that he played with my children, that he, it appeared to me, was becoming more relaxed and less fearful of being rejected, and i had sensed in him this fear earlier. it was because i had sensed in him in the spring this insecurity and feelings of inadequacies that the thought once crossed my mind as expressed to mrs. rainy that he could be guilty of a crime of passion if he thought someone was taking away from him his wife, something valuable to him. clearly he valued marina. she was his only human contact, really, and i think while---- mr. jenner. his only human contact? mrs. paine. really, so far as i could see, the only friend he had, and while he did quarrel and was petty with her on many times that i saw, he, i felt, valued her, and, of course, it is also true, as i have reported, that i never saw him physically violent to her or cruel, so that my impression of him, which i carried with me throughout my trip during the summer, changed, and my impression of him up to the time---- mr. jenner. of the assassination? mrs. paine. of the assassination, was of a struggling young man who wanted to support his family, who was having difficulty, who wanted to achieve something more in life than just the support of his family and raising children, who was very lonely, but yet could meet socially with people and be congenial when he made efforts to be. mr. jenner. was that effort confined largely to his immediate family? mrs. paine. well, i recall specifically---- mr. jenner. and to you and your children? mrs. paine. and i think i told you this, but that it is not in the record, that mrs. ruth kloepfer with her two daughters--no; i mentioned that to the record--came over to their house in new orleans in september, and he was a genial host on that occasion, and he was, i felt, enjoying being the center of interest for four or five people at this initial party when i first met him. mr. jenner. that was in the spring? that was february of ? mrs. paine. right; so that it is in this period when he was coming out weekends in the fall to my home that he seemed to me a man striving, wanting to achieve something, a man without much formal schooling nor much native intelligence, really, but a striver, trying hard, and i never felt any sense during that period that he might be a violent person or apt to break over from mild maladjustment to active violent hostility towards an individual. mr. jenner. did you have any feeling or impression that he in turn felt frustrated, that the ideals and objectives toward which he was reaching were unattainable, and he was having that feeling that they were unattainable, or at least that others were not accepting him in the concept in which he regarded himself? mrs. paine. yes; and i think i have testified that---- mr. jenner. was that fairly distinct in your mind? mrs. paine. yes; it was quite distinct. i don't believe he felt successful. as i have said, i didn't talk much with him about what his aims were. but it seemed to me, and marina expressed to me her feeling, that he had an overblown opinion of himself, and of what he could and should achieve in the world. mr. jenner. what is your impression of him as his being introspective or an introvert or an extrovert? did he seek friends or did he avoid social contact? what are your impressions in those areas of him? mrs. paine. i would say that he was a combination, that the man within was an introvert, preferred the company of the television set or a book, but that he could, as i have said, be a genial host or go to a meeting of the american civil liberties union with my husband, and i understand that he made a fairly good impression upon some of the people there. and i have also heard that he was making a fairly good impression where he was working at this last place. further, it is not the sign of an introvert to blow off on little things to your wife, as he did. i felt that he exercised the safety valve of expressing irritations early. he didn't save them up. they came right out. i might say, also, i felt that he was primarily an emotional person, though he talked of ideology and philosophy, that what moved him and what reached him were the more emotional qualities of life, and that he was really unusually sensitive to hurt. now, some of this is hindsight, and i would like to label it as such, but i want to say that i was not at all surprised reading after the assassination that he took a little puppy to his favorite teacher as a gift, and then came over to see this puppy very often. this was in the fourth grade or so. as an effort to make a warm contact and show feeling. mr. jenner. that is, if this incident did in fact take place, it was something that you could understand? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. understand in the sense that it might be something---- mrs. paine. in terms of what i saw. mr. jenner. that lee oswald would have done, is that correct? mrs. paine. as a child. i did feel that very likely he took fewer and fewer risks making friends as he grew up than he perhaps had as a child, but i was guessing at that, the risk of being close, in other words. mr. jenner. took fewer and fewer risks? mrs. paine. i think he was fearful of being close to anyone. mr. jenner. or being hurt? mrs. paine. because he could, therefore, be hurt, right. mr. jenner. not being accepted? mrs. paine. if he allowed himself to be friends or be close, then he opened the possibility of the friend hurting him, and i had this feeling about him, that he couldn't permit or stand such hurt. mr. jenner. would you tell us of your feelings toward marina? you liked her? that is what i am getting at. mrs. paine. yes; i like her very much. i felt always that what i wanted to say and what i was able to understand of what she said was hampered by my poor russian. it improved a good deal while with her, and we did have very personal talks about our respective marriages. but i felt this was just a developing friendship, not one in full bloom, by any means. i respected what i saw in her, her pride, her wish to be independent, her habit of hard work, and expecting to work, her devotion to her children, first to june and then to both of the little girls, and the concentration of her attention upon this job of mother, and of raising these children. i also respected her willingness and effort to get on with lee, and to try to make the best of what apparently was not a particularly good marriage, but yet she had made that commitment and she expected to do her best for it. mr. jenner. what is your present reaction, and even as you went along, of her feeling or regard for or with respect to you? mrs. paine. i felt she liked me. i felt she tended to put me in a position of aunt ruth, as she called me, i have already said, to junie, almost as aunt to her rather than a mother as she was equal, in other words, she was a young mother and i was a young mother equal in age and stage in life. mr. jenner. by the way, you were of her age, were you? mrs. paine. no; i am older than she. i am . mr. jenner. you are and she is what? mrs. paine. twenty-two. but our children were fairly close in age, and our immediate problems were fairly similar therefore. mr. jenner. now; would you give me your reaction to robert? mrs. paine. i have very little reaction to robert, of course, having met him only at the police station and said very little to him there, and equally little when he came with mr. thorne and mr. martin to pick up marina's things at my house a few weeks after the assassination. that is the sum total of my contact, so that what impressions i have have been formed from what people said and not directly formed. mr. jenner. in other words, you had so little contact with him that you really have formed no particular opinion with respect to him? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. do you have any impression at all or any knowledge, if you have knowledge, of his impressions of you and of your husband? mrs. paine. no; i have no knowledge of his impressions of me or my husband. mr. jenner. and do you have any impressions apart from knowledge? mrs. paine. no; i have some impressions about what mr. thorne and mr. martin are. mr. jenner. what are they? who are the two men you mentioned--mr. martin? mrs. paine. mr. martin acted as business advisor for marina and she lived at his home for some time after the assassination. mr. jenner. did you have some contact with him? mrs. paine. i met him on the st of december at his home, came to the door and he recognized and asked me in. i don't know i had met him before because i didn't know he had been one of the men who had come with robert to pick up the things for marina, but he said he had been on that occasion. (brief recess.) mr. jenner. we were talking about mr. martin. go ahead. mrs. paine. we had a short but fairly cordial talk and i left with him a package of letters that had come to my address but were really for marina, containing notes and checks of donations. mr. jenner. how did you become aware of what the contents of those were? mrs. paine. they were addressed to me in my name, so that i opened them and then these were enclosing a check asking me to deliver it to marina, this sort of thing. and also brought, i can't remember, some items, things i found in the house that belonged to her very probably that we hadn't noticed when robert had come to get the remaining items. from a call to the secret service headquarters in dallas i had gained the impression that i shouldn't try to see marina oswald at that time, and while i was under the impression that she was at mr. martin's home it was not my particular intention to see her. i wanted to meet him if i could and learn anything that would give me some more impression of how things were going for her at that time, and with this small collection of donations for her that i was taking, i wrote a short note to her, a christmas greeting, and returned home. i came--perhaps i should interrupt here. talking about my contact with mr. martin and mr. thorne is really best done in connection with the letters i wrote to marina, and these are--since the assassination, and these are in irving. it might be better to do the whole thing as part of the deposition there. mr. jenner. when i come to irving this coming week? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. what feeling do you have as to the reason why, if you have any at all, there appears to have been this sudden, if it is sudden, at least lack of contact between you and marina commencing with the last time you saw her some days or weeks ago? when was that? mrs. paine. the morning of the d of november. mr. jenner. and you have had no contact with or from her from the d to some days or weeks ago, is that correct? mrs. paine. you recall i said that i had talked with her by phone the evening of the d and then again around noon of the th. mr. jenner. yes. mrs. paine. then there was one call from her to me, telephone call from the motel where she was staying for a couple of weeks after the assassination. it was brief, but she expressed her gratitude to me. mr. jenner. her gratitude for what? mrs. paine. for things that i had done, for having had her at my home. i said, either said or she asked that michael was staying at my home now, and she said, "well, maybe something good can come of even this terrible thing." i said that i was writing an article with a fellow for look magazine. mr. jenner. and that is the article we put in evidence yesterday? mrs. paine. yes; and she expressed her feeling that that was a good thing, really her feeling that she hoped i might get some financial remuneration from it. i think she always felt terribly indebted to me in a way she couldn't resolve. i said i had talked by telephone with mrs. ford the previous day. this telephone call between myself and mrs. ford was the first time she and i had talked. mr. jenner. the first time you and mrs. ford had talked? mrs. paine. yes; and mrs. ford called me. and i had taken mrs. ford's number that day, and gave this number to marina over the phone. mrs. ford and i had talked about whether marina should be encouraged herself to write something just from the aspect of her financial need, and that this might ease the finances, and i was hopeful that mrs. ford, more fluent in russian than i, would help marina in a decision relative to this matter. marina said to me, "they don't know that i'm telephoning you." mr. jenner. they don't know? mrs. paine. that is all she said, and i didn't know to whom the "they" referred. but, because of that, i did not mention to the press or to friends that she had called, with the exception of michael, feeling that in time she would certainly contact me again. mr. jenner. has she? mrs. paine. well, she wrote me a christmas card with a few sentences on it. mr. jenner. we have that in evidence, have we? mrs. paine. oh, no; that is part of the postcorrespondence i didn't suppose you cared about. you can pick that up in irving. mr. jenner. may i see it? mrs. paine. yes, you certainly may see it, and i'll translate it for you. the card conveys greetings to me and my family for christmas, thanked me again for all my generosity. i felt overthanked because i didn't feel i had done very much. and said she was sorry that our friendship had ended so badly. mr. jenner. she said this in the note? the answer is yes? mrs. paine. the answer is yes. and i was surprised and a little hurt at the implication of its being over. i have already said that i went out to robert oswald's home in an effort to inquire of him and his wife what my best role might be as a friend towards marina, or trying to express friendship to marina at this time. i felt that possibly she was being advised not to contact me or that it was more difficult for the secret service to keep her location unknown if i had any contact with her or that they thought so at least. in fact, of course, i knew where she was anyway. and i also recalled something i will put in here that occurred as we were watching the television set after it was announced that the president was shot. i said, "and it happened in our city. i am going to move back east." and she knew, of course, not only because of this statement but because of the many things i have done which i have reported at that time that i was terribly grieved at kennedy's death. and i wondered if she wouldn't possibly feel that i couldn't forgive her for simply being the wife of the accused assassin. so that i wanted to somehow convey to her that i didn't hold her guilty or carry any animosity toward her. and in the situation i just didn't know how to convey this. what i did was to write her letters talking about normal things, but requesting a reply, and i didn't get a reply. mr. jenner. you did not? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. do you have a feeling that left uninfluenced and free to do as she might wish to do, that marina is still friendly with you and regards you well and would be in contact with you? mrs. paine. i have a feeling that left uninfluenced, she would have certainly remained friendly to me. if she suddenly now became uninfluenced, and perhaps she has become uninfluenced, it doesn't erase a period of influence that may have affected and may continue to affect her feelings toward me. i don't know what she has said or what was suggested about me to her, and we didn't get into anything of this nature at the one brief meeting on march . i didn't feel it appropriate. but a lot has passed. she was, after all--it has already been longer that i have not seen her, had no contact with her during a very trying and significant period in her life. that period was longer than the whole period she stayed with me. so much has happened, and i just don't know. mr. jenner. when you visited her on march , was it at her present home in richardson, tex.? mrs. paine. no. i had asked mrs. ford if i could come and make a tape recording at her house with her reading a russian beginning reader text onto the tape so that i could use this to improve my pronunciation and to use it with my one russian student, and she said she would be glad to help me with that recording, glad to help any time when someone wanted to learn russian. we neither one could do it that week, but she called me back a week later and said that she thought it would be nice if marina made the recording, since marina---- mr. jenner. this was volunteered on the part of mrs. ford? mrs. paine. this was volunteered on the part of mrs. ford and she suggested that i come to her house on march the th and we would go from her house to marina's house and make a recording and, of course, i was pleased with the opportunity to see marina whether or not it involved making a recording that night. mr. jenner. yes. this was at night? mrs. paine. it was in the evening; yes. as it turned out, we stayed at mrs. ford's. we did not go to marina's house. marina said to me---- mr. jenner. marina was at mrs. ford's when you arrived? mrs. paine. was at mrs. ford's when i arrived and we stayed there the entire time during the visit. marina explained she didn't have her furniture yet in her house and she would like to wait and invite me when she had her own home as she wanted it, and this, i think, is quite accurate. she likes things to look nice. i think she was pleased to have a home of her own. mr. jenner. did you girls have a general conversation apart from your immediate objective of having a recording? mrs. paine. we had primarily a nice visit. we did then do a recording, also. as it turned out, mrs. ford did the reading, because marina really needed to take care of june, who was there, also. mr. jenner. was your impression of marina at that time that she was friendly or at least that she was not averse? mrs. paine. yes. she was friendly. she said she was fearful that i might be angry with her for her not having answered my letters, and by making reference to the content of several of the letters i answered my own unspoken question as to whether she had received them. she had. mr. jenner. she has? mrs. paine. she recognized each of those things to which i referred. mr. jenner. things she mentioned during the course of this meeting? mrs. paine. indicated that she had received my letters. mr. jenner. yes; indicated to you that she had received them. mrs. paine. yes; and she said she was fearful that i would be angry with her for not having answered. but she said that mr. martin had advised her not to write to me or reply, and that she hoped i had understood that something of this nature was affecting her, and that this was why she was not writing. i asked about the change from having thorne as a lawyer and martin as a business advisor, to mr. mckenzie as a lawyer, and she thought that was a good and necessary change, was relieved that this was being done. i said that i had talked with mr. thorne. mr. jenner. when was that? mrs. paine. it was the first friday or saturday in january. mr. jenner. of this year? mrs. paine. of , and i asked him whether she, whether marina, had delegated power of attorney to anyone, and mr. thorne told me no. mr. jenner. why did you make that inquiry? mrs. paine. why did i make that inquiry? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. paine. at that time? i was concerned. i had no idea what sort of men these were or what arrangements they had made, and it seemed to me i had heard that thorne had told me himself that he conducted all his business with marina in english, and i thought this cannot be very detailed, because i knew her english to be quite poor. mr. jenner. were you troubled about her understanding of what was being done? mrs. paine. i was troubled about her understanding of what she had signed, and i wanted to know what powers she had delegated to someone else. therefore, i asked specifically about power of attorney, and he told me, no, she had not delegated that. mr. jenner. did you have a sense of responsibility in this area? mrs. paine. yes; i did. mr. jenner. but this was not mere curiosity or meddling on your part? mrs. paine. i felt that it was possible that she was being protected from her friends, and that had no one---- mr. jenner. you mean isolated from her friends? mrs. paine. all right; yes. mr. jenner. do you really mean that, isolated rather than protected from? mrs. paine. well, that someone may have thought she should not talk to me. mr. jenner. yes. mrs. paine. and, further, i learned that she hadn't spoken at an earlier time, at that time, to mrs. ford. i did not know of anyone who spoke russian except for official translators for secret service or the fbi who had been to see her, and this seemed to me wrong. so i was concerned. and when i reported this conversation with mr. thorne to marina, she said, "well, that is a lie" and i said---- mr. jenner. she said---- mrs. paine. that is a lie. she had delegated power of attorney, and i knew that at this time i was reporting the conversation to marina on the th of march because i had read it in the paper. mr. jenner. you had learned it in the meantime? mrs. paine. had learned in the meantime that she had delegated power of attorney. mr. jenner. i have been seeking all that occurred in your visit with marina and mrs. ford in the ford home on march . have you completed that? is there anything you would like to add? mrs. paine. well, i would like to add that mrs. ford was out for a brief period. she went to the washerteria to pick up some clothes that had been at the drier so that for a time marina and i were alone perfectly free to say anything we wanted. mr. jenner. and during that period was your conversation, your visit with marina pleasant? mrs. paine. oh, indeed; yes. mr. jenner. free and open? what reaction did you get during the period you were alone with her as to her feeling or regard or how she felt about you? mrs. paine. well, i felt she was certainly friendly, but i felt the strain of wanting to avoid any reference to her husband or to the events that were so painful to us both. and i didn't want to ask directly anything about why she hadn't written or confront her with that. she did say as i was working at the tape recorder later, and mrs. ford was reading from the book, we came to a break in the recording and marina commented, she had been sitting across the room watching, my profile was very like her mother's, and this is not the first time she has made the connection to my physical build and that of her mother. i don't give this much significance, but i do have the impression that there are many feelings and mixed feelings in us both. it is not a simple relationship. mr. jenner. do you anticipate the possibility of, i will use the word, renewing, it may not be the right word. mrs. paine. i think that would be right. there has been a distinct break. mr. jenner. of this cordial friendship and relationship with marina? mrs. paine. i would like that if it comes about. mr. jenner. and do you have a feeling that there is a possibility of that arising out of your contact with her on march , having now talked with her face to face? mrs. paine. i think there is that possibility. i would like her to do some of the initiating, if not most of it at this point. i said i was going to washington. i had just heard that same evening before going to the fords. mrs. ford said that she and her husband were to go to washington, and when. and i said when i would be back home, and marina implied that she might try to contact me then. i am hopeful that she will. i don't have any particular plans to attempt to contact her. mr. jenner. do you have any feeling other than charity in your heart for marina? mrs. paine. oh, yes; certainly. i like her very much as a person. this doesn't mean that i understand her, that she is a person to whom i feel automatically kindred. she was raised in soviet russia. she has a background very foreign to my own. i am not even aware of some of the kinds of differences this may cause. i do think that she is a good thinker and a free thinker and that she thinks for herself. i was interested to note what i have put into the record, i believe, yesterday evening about her comment to mr. hosty, the first time he came to the house, that she thought castro was not getting an entirely fair press or not being pictured well in this country, to present a contrary opinion in this situation, and an independent opinion, possibly, clearly unpopular, or she could well suspect it would be unpopular with the fbi agent showed a certain amount of independence and courage and self-confidence, i felt, more what i would expect of an american than of a person raised to be fearful of secret police and state domination. mr. jenner. do you have anything you want to add in this connection? mrs. paine. just the observation that her view of herself and of what she should do now that her husband has been accused of assassinating the president of the united states must be very strongly affected by the fact that she was raised in soviet russia, not here, but the fact that she is an emigre hopeful of staying, but by no means native. mr. jenner. did she ever talk to you, i think you mentioned before that she was hopeful of staying. did she express that to you? mrs. paine. on several occasions. mr. jenner. and of ultimately becoming a citizen of the united states? mrs. paine. she didn't mention that, but i assumed it. mr. jenner. you assumed it from the nature of the conversation? mrs. paine. yes; i didn't hear anything specifically stated about that until i read it in the paper after the assassination. mr. jenner. i would like to limit it first not to what you read in the paper and your being influenced thereby, but from your contacts with marina, and the conversations that you had, there must have been many, many of them. mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. in your home. do you have a feeling that she has a hope or desire or an intention eventually to become a citizen of the united states? mrs. paine. i don't recall that specifically. i recall on several occasions that she---- mr. jenner. i am seeking only your impression now. mrs. paine. i will try to answer it by giving these impressions. she expressed many times her wish to stay in this country. she wanted to raise her children here. she was interested in june's learning english and was very concerned that june be able to speak english before she entered school. indeed, i felt she was not enough concerned that june maintain a bilingual background. she wouldn't have cared if june only learned english, whereas, i, here struggling hard to learn russian, thought that june could have a chance to learn it easily, but her expression of interest was in june's learning english and not any particular desire to maintain a bilingual quality. mr. jenner. i would share your feeling. i wish i had the command of more than english. i would like very much to do so. i took a lot of spanish, but it is completely gone now. mrs. paine. it is very hard to be truly bilingual. few children have the opportunity. mr. jenner. i have just a couple technicalities on the diary and on your address book, so i can establish them for the record. i would like to go through commission exhibit , which is the calendar. the entry on page of the exhibit in reference to lawrence hoke--that is your brother-in-law? oh, that is your nephew? mrs. paine. he was born last april , , and i wrote it down. mr. jenner. nothing to do with the oswalds? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. the next sheet is blank, of course. now, to the calendar itself, are there any entries in january that have reference to oswalds? mrs. paine. none. mr. jenner. february? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. pick them out according to dates. mrs. paine. well, you must understand that some of these were written at the time and some were put in later. mr. jenner. all right; distinguish between them, please. mrs. paine. i wrote down on february , june's birthday, : a.m., minsk. that was written in later. mr. jenner. that is, she was born on february . did you put the year in there? mrs. paine. the year does not appear. i, of course, know it. mr. jenner. and that was the previous year? mrs. paine. she was born in . mr. jenner. . any other reference or entry in the month of february that has relation to the oswalds? mrs. paine. at the top is written "marina last period february " crossed out "or th." this refers to menstrual period trying to figure when the baby would be due, and it was an inaccurate notation i learned later. then there is a note written at the time, the only one on this page that refers to the oswalds that was written at the time, and that says, "everett's?" mr. jenner. entered where? mrs. paine. on the d of february, and from this---- mr. jenner. and you have already testified about that? mrs. paine. from this i deduced that was when i first met them. mr. jenner. now, i turn to march, and i direct your attention to the upper left-hand corner of that card, and it appears to me that in the upper left-hand corner are october , then a star, then "lho" followed by the words "purchase of rifle." would you explain those entries? mrs. paine. yes. this was written after. mr. jenner. after? mrs. paine. this was written indeed after the assassination. mr. jenner. all right. mrs. paine. i heard on the television that he had purchased a rifle. mr. jenner. when? mrs. paine. i heard it on november . mr. jenner. yes. mrs. paine. and went back to the page for march, put a little star on march as being a small square, i couldn't fit in all i wanted to say. i just put in a star and then referring it to the corner of the calendar. mr. jenner. that is to the entry i have read? mrs. paine. put the star saying "lho purchase of rifle." then i thought someone is going to wonder about that, i had better put down the date, and did, but it was a busy day, one of the most in my life and i was off by a month as to what day it was. mr. jenner. that is you made the entry october? mrs. paine. october instead of november. mr. jenner. it should have been november ? mrs. paine. it should have been november . mr. jenner. and the entry of october , which should have been november , was an entry on your part indicating the date you wrote on the calendar the star followed by "lho purchase of rifle" and likewise the date you made an entry? mrs. paine. on the th. mr. jenner. this is the square having the date march ? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. is that correct? mrs. paine. i might point out that i didn't know lee had a middle name until i had occasion to fill out forms for marina in parkland hospital. mr. jenner. that is when you learned that his middle name was harvey and his initial was h? mrs. paine. right. mr. jenner. any other entries in march relating to the oswalds? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. identify it, please, first as to date. mrs. paine. and this written at the time--it happens to be also on march , it says, "marina," and i judge that this was the time we had scheduled for me to come to her, and i believe it is the date referred to in one of the letters as "until the th." mr. jenner. you have already testified about this incident? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. any others? mrs. paine. not for the month of march. mr. jenner. all right. now, dropping down on that same page to the calendar for april, are there any entries relating to the oswalds? mrs. paine. yes. written at the time there is an entry for tuesday, april , "marina and lee, dinner" and it looks like " o'clock" above the word "dinner." that has been testified to. mr. jenner. you have testified about that? mrs. paine. yes. then there is an entrance on---- mr. jenner. an entry? mrs. paine. an entry, yes, sorry; on april where marina's name appears, this time written in russian. mr. jenner. you have testified about that? mrs. paine. yes, and there is a similar entrance for the th of april with an arrow. mr. jenner. entry, you mean again? mrs. paine. i am sorry, an entry pushing it over to the th, which would indicate to me that the actual meeting took place on the th. mr. jenner. you testified about that, is that correct? mrs. paine. yes, i have. and then i have also testified about meeting, picnic, marina and lee, on the th of april. mr. jenner. all right. mrs. paine. and then i have also testified about seeing both of them on the th of april, and in that square on my calendar appear the words "lee and marina." then there was an entry referring to the oswalds---- mr. jenner. you mean theirs? mrs. paine. theirs, but written in later, saying, "marina and lee wedding anniversary two years ago." mr. jenner. that is, you mean you didn't write it on the th of april? mrs. paine. i wrote that later. i learned that date some time in the fall. mr. jenner. you have now identified all entries on the april calendar referring to the oswalds? mrs. paine. yes; i have. mr. jenner. let's take may. mrs. paine. well, i have referred to the fact that this entry on may "mary" refers to a babysitter, followed by "war and peace." this recalls to me the fact that marina went with me and we took june and we saw the movie war and peace. mr. jenner. about which you have testified? mrs. paine. yes. the next entry---- mr. jenner. the next one relating to the oswalds. mrs. paine. right, is on may going over to the th where in new orleans and it means these were the days we were going to new orleans. mr. jenner. and you have testified about that entry and that event? mrs. paine. i have. mr. jenner. any other entries on the may calendar relating to the oswalds? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. all right; now drop down to june, please. mrs. paine. no entries relating to the oswalds in june. mr. jenner. turn the page and go to the calendar for july. mrs. paine. i see an entry on july which says, "marina birthday." this was written either before or after i did know in the spring that her birthday was in july. i am not certain i have got it down on the right date, and that is all. mr. jenner. drop down then to the calendar for august. are there any entries relating to the oswalds on that date? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. turn the page. we have now reached the calendar for september. are there any entries relating to the oswalds? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. would you identify them, please? mrs. paine. on september there is an entry, "a.m. left n.o." meaning new orleans. mr. jenner. that is an entry of your having departed from new orleans to go back to---- mrs. paine. and this was written shortly after that event. mr. jenner. to go back to texas? mrs. paine. on the th is written, "home arrived : p.m., from n.o." meaning new orleans. mr. jenner. when was that entry made? mrs. paine. these were both made after our arrival back. mr. jenner. but shortly afterwards? mrs. paine. very shortly. mr. jenner. did you say you had a luncheon engagement? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. would you like to suspend, and we have lunch and then come back? mrs. paine. sure. mr. jenner. it is now o'clock. we will be back at . could you finish this calendar? mrs. paine. we have finished september. we are up to october . there is an entry on friday the th that says, "gave blood" and that has been referred to in testimony previously. mr. jenner. that was in connection with marina's entry into parkland hospital for the birth of her child? mrs. paine. that is correct. crossed out on the th of october is "lee birthday?" on the th of october appears an entry "lee birthday." mr. jenner. you had it in the wrong place initially? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. and then you put it in the right place eventually? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. is that correct? mrs. paine. yes. then on the th there is a notation "marina appointment pmh" parkland memorial hospital, " a.m." this was our first appointment as i recall, when we applied for care. there is an entry on october , "work l start." this was a mistaken entry and it is crossed out, written down after he called to say he had received work, he didn't actually start working until the th, and i have written on the th, "lee work start," and also "hos" for hospital, and " : a.m." that would be parkland. i would be certain it was. mr. jenner. were those entries made contemporaneously with the occurrence of the events they seek to record? mrs. paine. all except the corrected, "lee work start," which was made after the assassination, when i realized he didn't start work on the same day that he received the acceptance. mr. jenner. how soon after the assassination did you make that corrected entry? mrs. paine. quite soon i'd say. i was being asked each day by many people when did he start to work, and when i put together the necessary sequence of events of having been at coffee at my neighbors, following by his applying, following by his starting, it had to be on the th that he had started. then on the th of october is a notation, one word in russian which says "she was born." it is followed by " : p.m., pounds ounces." mr. jenner. and that refers to marina's child rachel? mrs. paine. yes. on october is a notation, "baby come home noon" or "came home". that means exactly what it says. mr. jenner. and was it entered contemporaneously with the event? mrs. paine. yes; it was. mr. jenner. the entry of the baby's birth, was that entered contemporaneously with the event? mrs. paine. yes; right after. mr. jenner. let me say at this moment this calendar, you employed it sometimes as a diary entry, sometimes as prospective appointments, and sometimes to record past events after they had occurred? mrs. paine. that is right. on the th of october appears the entry, "dal" short for dallas "junie" she had a clinic appointment. mr. jenner. that is the child of lee harvey, lee and marina oswald? mrs. paine. the older daughter. mr. jenner. now, you have turned the page to the calendar for november. mrs. paine. that is right. you asked me at some time during my testimony was i away during the weekend for any length of time other than to go to the grocery store. i had forgotten but i see here a doctor appointment, "dr. liebes," on saturday would have been made the day before, meaning the child is sick, or that morning, and it means that i was away for an hour and minutes or an hour and a half. mr. jenner. what day is this? mrs. paine. on saturday, the d of november. mr. jenner. this is the weekend as to which you had some difficulty recalling whether lee actually visited your home? mrs. paine. beginning friday or beginning saturday, or possibly he wasn't out. mr. jenner. you recall that the fbi interviewed you on friday, november . mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. and do you have an entry to that effect? mrs. paine. no, i did not mark that down. mr. jenner. is it your recollection that lee, if he didn't visit or come to your home on the st, that he did come on the d? mrs. paine. i have no clear recollection. then there is an entry on november , " : dental clinic marina", it means exactly that. we took her to a dental clinic to get dental care. mr. jenner. and that was probably an entry made in advance to remind you that she had a dental appointment? mrs. paine. yes. there is an entry on november , "veterans day." i have already referred to the fact that i was away from or so in the morning until about in the afternoon and this was a day that lee was at home or at the fifth street address at my home. mr. jenner. what date is this? mrs. paine. veterans day, the th. it was a monday. mr. jenner. it is a monday. and he was at home? mrs. paine. he was at home that day, and i was away from about in the morning. mr. jenner. excuse me so we don't get the record confused as to what home means. he was at your home? mrs. paine. yes. there is an entry on the th of november, " a.m. june oswald." this i recall to be a reference to taking her to a tb clinic. there was a slight suspicion that she might have been exposed to tb, but this is followed by an entry on the st, "checked tb test" and at that time it was clearly negative. she did not have tuberculosis. in the same connection, there is an entry on the th of november, " o'clock tb children's clinic", abbreviation of children's, and i would judge we didn't go all of those times. one of those probably was changed. mr. jenner. do you recall that it was but one tb examination visit? mrs. paine. there were two visits. we went and they scratched the skin to apply the test. then you go back to have it read. and she also had x-rays taken. mr. jenner. could those double entries indicate that? mrs. paine. well, there were three entries. she only went twice. mr. jenner. i see. is it possible you might have gone three times? mrs. paine. it is possible. mr. jenner. all right. have you identified all three entries now? mrs. paine. i have. there is an entry on the th of november, "marina a.m. dental clinic" which is the second dental clinic reference. there is an entry on the d of november " : a.m., lynn lollar." mr. jenner. how do you spell lynn? mrs. paine. l-y-n-n, which refers to a dental appointment for my daughter to which i have testified. there is also in pencil---- mr. jenner. its significance is that it took you out of the home. mrs. paine. that is its significance, yes. that is the only reason it is related. there is also a penciled note at the bottom of the month that says, "planned parent," arrow up, arrow down, meaning this week or next visit the planned parenthood clinic, with marina, for marina. this brings us to december. mr. jenner. excuse me, that elicits a little curiosity on my part. mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. or interest, rather, not just bare curiosity, pertinent curiosity, should i put it that way. what was the purpose of that visit? i am acquainted with planned parenthood society. what was the purpose of the visit? was she concerned about having more children? mrs. paine. that is exactly it. mr. jenner. would you relate that and your conversations with her on that score? mrs. paine. yes. i might go back and say that in march when she first mentioned to me she was expecting a child and we talked about birth control, at that time i also said in march that i would be glad to go with her after the birth of the baby to the planned parenthood clinic to get advice and necessary help, so that she could prevent further conceptions if she wished to. mr. jenner. was she concerned about the ability, for example, i am just casting about for a reason to stimulate your recollection, the ability of lee to support a family of additional children, a larger family? mrs. paine. i recall her commenting, and this most likely in the fall, that lee had said to her, have as many children as she wanted, but her own feeling was that it is difficult to raise two, and especially as they didn't have a great deal of money, that two would be a good size family. we also discussed the differing attitudes between americans and russians on what is a large family. two is considered quite a large family, two or three in russia, where both parents normally work, and it is difficult to support a very large family. mr. jenner. and did you keep the appointment with planned parenthood? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. did you ever attend with her a planned parenthood meeting or session, visit? mrs. paine. her husband was killed before it was time to go. mr. jenner. that is, lee oswald was? mrs. paine. one had to wait until at least weeks after the birth of the baby before going, or or weeks. mr. jenner. go ahead. mrs. paine. i go on to december. there are two notations, both written down in advance of this time, and both notes indicating when to go to a clinic, and neither of these appointments was kept. there is a notation on the d of december, "vine clinic, bay noon." the vine street clinic was a well baby clinic in dallas. mr. jenner. what do you mean "well baby"? mrs. paine. that is a clinic where any mother can bring children for inoculations, or preventive health measures. i think i have already mentioned a previous notation about the vine clinic on november . i might have skipped that. mr. jenner. i think you did. mrs. paine. there is an entry on november , "vine clinic o'clock." mr. jenner. and that was to be a visit by marina with her child? mrs. paine. june. mr. jenner. june. did that include rachel as well? mrs. paine. rachel only went along, and we were told that she should come in about four weeks. mr. jenner. that marina should? mrs. paine. no, that is the baby. mr. jenner. the baby june? mrs. paine. yes, should be weeks old or so before they give the first--no, that the baby rachel should also come, but that she should be older before giving her the first inoculation. mr. jenner. therefore, you made the entry as of december , to bring the baby for the first time to that clinic? of course, that never took place. mrs. paine. i might point out that we were advised that we could change the registration of june and make registration for rachel in irving at a well baby clinic instead of in dallas, but since the expectation was that marina would be back in dallas after the st of the year, we decided to maintain that clinic. mr. jenner. that is of interest to me, mrs. paine. there had been discussion between you and marina in which there appeared to be an expectation on her part that she would have rejoined her husband by the st of the year? mrs. paine. i thought i had already made that clear, yes indeed, and this just adds to that indication. mr. jenner. so that these are entries that physically are related to the current expectation then existing of her return to her husband, joining him in dallas. mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. to live with him? mrs. paine. that is right. there is a a notation on december , "clinic weeks". mr. jenner. excuse me. the first of those entries was made on november , is that correct? mrs. paine. just a minute. no, october , "dallas junie" is the first vine street clinic visit, followed week later by a reading of her patch test, whatever the tb test was which registered a false, positive but we went to the tb children's clinic to be certain that it was a false positive, and she was cleared of any suspicion of tb on the st of november. mr. jenner. what i was getting at is that when you made the entry on november , ---- mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and i would gather substantially contemporaneously with that an entry on december , ---- mrs. paine. december . mr. jenner. december , , that there was consciously in the minds of both you and marina as of november that she would be rejoining her husband by the first of the year. mrs. paine. that is correct. i can give a little more detail on this. mr. jenner. i wish you would, on that. mrs. paine. we were visited at the home by a public health nurse in irving---- mr. jenner. when was that? mrs. paine. i don't recall. it doesn't appear, and i don't recall, though they might have records of it. mr. jenner. i am not trying to get the exact date. i am really---- mrs. paine. it was after she had registered at parkland, it was after the baby was born. mr. jenner. and was it in the month of october? mrs. paine. probably. mr. jenner. all right. mrs. paine. and we were advised by this public health nurse that there was a well baby clinic in irving, which she conducted, and that she had been given our name and address because of the care at parkland, and she said that marina could come and bring her children to the clinic in irving. then i mentioned that they had contact already with the vine street clinic, and i think after this visit from the nurse, marina and i discussed where it would be best for her to have her---- mr. jenner. her clinic care? mrs. paine. her association, her clinic, yes. mr. jenner. and during the course of that conversation, go on---- mrs. paine. marina expressed the opinion that it would be better to just continue in dallas. mr. jenner. because---- mrs. paine. because they would be again in dallas. mr. jenner. and that squared with your impressions at that time? mrs. paine. indeed it did. mr. jenner. off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. jenner. return to the record. mrs. paine. there was another clinic visit that doesn't appear here. i don't know why. obviously, a lot of things happened that i didn't write down but there was also a visit to, i will call it, a sick baby clinic where you go if a child is ailing. mr. jenner. and who was ailing? or possibly so? mrs. paine. my recollection was that no one was ailing, but we learned of it and wanted to make registration. it was in the adjacent building to the tb clinic. oh, no; i recall now why we went. at the first vine street clinic meeting, which is, i judge, the th of october, the physician recommended that june go to the freeman memorial clinic. mr. jenner. f-r-e-e-m-a-n? mrs. paine. to the best of my recollection. i am not certain. june has--i don't know what it is called, but it is like a birthmark except that it is not at the time of birth but a little blood vessel that collects and makes a red spot. this was on her tummy. mr. jenner. it was on marina's? mrs. paine. it was on june's tummy and the doctor at the well baby clinic suggested that she should have this looked at, and in this connection he referred us to this other children's clinic, and we went for an examination there at some time, and it doesn't appear on my calendar, and the doctors there concluded that it was not necessary for that to be taken off. at the same time, we filled out forms, more forms about marina, so that she could be eligible, and she did then get a card so that she could come to this clinic at any time that her children were sick. and they no doubt would have a record of when that was done. my own best recollection would be that it was the morning of the th of november, although there is no reference to it here. then the final notation is december . i started to mention this, but i don't believe i finished, "clinic weeks check ." one refers to the post partum check at parkland memorial hospital. mr. jenner. this was a part of the postnatal care? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. for marina? mrs. paine. for marina, and, of course, to check the baby's health, too, and i simply sent notation about this appointment to secret service. that is all. mr. jenner. did marina or june or rachel or lee, to your knowledge, have any medical care by private physician, during the time of your acquaintance with them? mrs. paine. not to my knowledge, and i would be surprised. mr. jenner. surprised? why? mrs. paine. if they had. they had very little money, and this arrangement for the well baby clinic had been made by marina well before i knew her. june had already been once or twice in dallas to the vine street clinic. i judged that marina, a trained pharmacist, was concerned about health, and wanted to get proper medical care whether or not they could pay for it. mr. jenner. all right, now have we covered all of your calendar, which sometimes served as a diary, being commission exhibit no. ? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. all right. we will adjourn until : . (whereupon, at : p.m., the proceeding was recessed.) testimony of ruth hyde paine resumed the proceedings reconvened at : p.m. mr. jenner. we will resume. directing your attention to commission exhibit no. , which is your address book, would you do with that what you did with your calendar diary, and go through it page by page, and tell us of any entries on particular pages which relate to the oswalds? the first sheet of the exhibit is the cover. next is the inside cover, and the reverse of the first page. is there anything on any of the entries which appear on those pages which relate to the oswalds? mrs. paine. the one on the left is the police officer who picked up the address book. mr. jenner. those are his initials and date that he picked it up? mrs. paine. i don't know who picked it up. and i didn't see it was gone. mr. jenner. oh, yes; as you testified. the next page is the "a" page, the left and right hand. mrs. paine. these have no significance to the oswalds. mr. jenner. the next is the b page, left and right. mrs. paine. no significance. mr. jenner. bell helicopter is the place at which your husband is employed? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. the next page is the c page, left-hand. mrs. paine. you are still on b. mr. jenner. i am what? mrs. paine. you are still on b. mr. jenner. the left-hand here on this exhibit is the reverse side of the b page, is that correct? mrs. paine. that is correct. mr. jenner. anything on there relating to the oswalds? mrs. paine. you have on this page two neighbors of mine, ann bell met both marina and lee, and she has been interviewed. mr. jenner. other than that? mrs. paine. other than that, no significance. mr. jenner. the next is the right-hand of the b page, and the first page of the c page. any of those names or addresses related to the oswalds? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. next is the opposite face of the c page and the first page of the d page. mrs. paine. nothing there related to the oswalds. mr. jenner. the next is the reverse side of the c page and the first page of the d page. mrs. paine. also nothing related. mr. jenner. the next is the reverse side of the d page and the first page of the e page. mrs. paine. nothing there. mr. jenner. next, the reverse side of the d page and the first face of the e page. mrs. paine. nothing of significance with relation to the oswalds. mr. jenner. next is the reverse of the e page and the first face of the f page. mrs. paine. i recall being refreshed by this entry, four continents book store. i went into this book store during the summer, my summer trip, and inquired of the lady at the cashier's desk something that i wanted to find, and realized that she did not speak any english, she did not understand me. and i heard other people--there is a book store where you can obtain materials in russian--it imports from russia, and had materials that i wanted to get to help me with teaching russian. mr. jenner. is this located in irving, tex.? mrs. paine. this is in new york city. and---- mr. jenner. you have not frequented that place before? mrs. paine. i have been in there before, yes; in a different year. mr. jenner. were you aware, then, of the factor you have now recounted? mrs. paine. no; the only reason i bring it up is that i related this incident to marina as an illustration of the fact that one needn't know english fluently to get a job--if there were a russian-speaking community, where russian could be used. that is all. mr. jenner. then the reverse of the page and the first face of the g page. mrs. paine. nothing of significance here. mr. jenner. next, the reverse of the f page and the first face of the g page. mrs. paine. well, there is a reference to d. gravitis, and also the name of her son-in-law appears here. mr. jenner. and her son-in-law is? mrs. paine. ilya mamantov. mr. jenner. and at the bottom of the page? mrs. paine. yes; there is an entry for everett glover, whose name has appeared in the testimony, and whose connection is known. mr. jenner. nothing else? mrs. paine. nothing else. mr. jenner. the reverse of the g page and the face of the h page. mrs. paine. nothing significant there. mr. jenner. globe parcel service. didn't you make some reference to that in your testimony? mrs. paine. yes; not in any connection to the oswalds. but this was an address given to me by my russian tutor. this is a service which will help you to send parcels to people behind the iron curtain. they see to it that it is either delivered or returned--whereas, sometimes without that service it will be neither delivered or returned. mr. jenner. did you seek to resort to its services in connection with any of your association with the oswalds? mrs. paine. no. i, in fact, have not used the service. i only have their address. mr. jenner. all right. next is the reverse of the g page and the facing page of the h page. mrs. paine. mild significance in that the name of my one russian student appears here, bill hootkins. mr. jenner. and his telephone number---- mrs. paine. is there; yes. mr. jenner. the reverse of the h page and the face of the i page. now, let's take the reverse of the h page first, first side. the two pages--the left-hand one has samuel and liz hagner, and the opposite page at the top has carol hyde. on those two pages, are there any entries dealing with the oswalds or relating to them? mrs. paine. none; except that it contains an address of several of my relatives, and these are people to whom i spoke about the oswalds, and that has appeared in the testimony. other than that, no significance. mr. jenner. next would be--there are some empty pages. we better record that fact. the reverse side---- mrs. paine. they are not in your exhibit. mr. jenner. as we have gone along, there are some blank pages in your address book. mrs. paine. yes. but they are not in the exhibit. mr. jenner. those blank pages, except as they are in proximity to pages that have some entries on them, were not photostated. mrs. paine. no, sir. mr. jenner. and do not appear as part of commission exhibit ? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. all right. now, i am now directing your attention in the picture exhibit to the page on which the letter j appears at the top. mrs. paine. yes. there is nothing of significance here in relation to the oswalds. mr. jenner. and next is a page in which a letter k appears at the top of the list of letters. mrs. paine. nothing of significance here. mr. jenner. the next is a page in which the top letter is l. mrs. paine. nothing here. mr. jenner. and the next, on the right-hand side is a page, the top letter of which is m. on the opposite page in the photograph there are entries also. look at both pages, please. mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. all right. mrs. paine. there is one significant entry for dutz and lillian murret. mr. jenner. french street, new orleans? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. telephone number hu - . mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. those are the aunt and uncle of the late oswald? mrs. paine. yes. and this was filled in after my second visit to new orleans. mr. jenner. how long after? you mean while you were there? mrs. paine. probably while i was there. but i know i didn't have their address or their name correct during the summer. mr. jenner. it was during your visit--your second visit to new orleans that you learned fully of their name and address and telephone number, and you made an entry in your address book? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. there is one above that, is there not? mrs. paine. and i believe this person has been referred to in testimony--helen mamikonian. she was my roommate at middlebury college, summer russian school. mr. jenner. all right. now, the next is a sheet that is opposite the sheet, the top letter of which is m. mrs. paine. this just gives a current address for the same person--helen mamikonian. mr. jenner. thank you. and the next is a sheet, the top letter of which is n. mrs. paine. nothing significant here. mr. jenner. the next is a sheet, the top letter of which is o. you have testified fully as to all the entries on that sheet, have you not, heretofore? mrs. paine. yes; i have. mr. jenner. the next is a sheet in which the top letter appearing is the letter p. mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. are there any entries on that sheet that relate to the oswalds? mrs. paine. the entry for plattner clinic, in grand prairie, was made because i inquired of them about the cost of maternity care at their clinic and hospital, for marina. mr. jenner. no other entry of significance on that page? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. the next is the page opposite that--the top letter of which is q. mrs. paine. no significance here. mr. jenner. the next is the page the top letter of which is r. mrs. paine. significant here is an entry for ed and dorothy roberts. mr. jenner. those are your next door neighbors? mrs. paine. those are my next door neighbors, and also randle, which refers to mrs. william randle. and the one below has been covered in testimony--that is frolick and pen rainey. mr. jenner. frolick, i should say to you, mrs. paine, is spelled f-r-o-e-l-i-c-h, although you do not have it so entered. the next page is the page opposite the page, the top letter of which is s. mrs. paine. nothing of significance here. mr. jenner. the next is a page the top letter of which, for some strange reason is also s. it is the opposite---- mrs. paine. the last one you had was facing. mr. jenner. and this is the reverse side of the s page. all right. mrs. paine. no significance in relation to the oswalds. it does list the name of the school at which i taught russian, saint mark's school. mr. jenner. by the way, would you identify the strattons? mrs. paine. yes; they are very good friends of mine who i have known from work with the young friends committee of north america. he was chairman of the east-west contacts committee while i was chairman of the subcommittee on pen pal correspondence. mr. jenner. nothing else on the s page? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. the next is a page on which the top letter appears to be t. mrs. paine. no significance here. mr. jenner. the next is a page, the right-hand one of which has the top letter u, and then there are entries not on that page but on the page to the left of that. mrs. paine. no significance. mr. jenner. the next is a page on which the top letter appears also as u. mrs. paine. yes; no significance here. mr. jenner. but the first name on which refers to dick uviller. mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. the next is a page the top letter of which appears to be v. mrs. paine. no significance here. mr. jenner. the next is a page the top letter of which appears to be w. mrs. paine. no significance here. mr. jenner. the next is a page the top letter of which is y. mrs. paine. no significance in relation to the oswalds, except as testified. i did talk to mrs. young. mr. jenner. yes. those are entries dealing with your in-laws, the youngs? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. and there are three entries. mrs. paine. no. the first one has no relation whatsoever to my relatives. mr. jenner. that is a different young entirely? mrs. paine. that is. mr. jenner. but the next two, arthur m. young, and charles morris--those are your in-laws? mrs. paine. and arthur young's father, charles morris young. mr. jenner. charles morris young is arthur m. young's father? mrs. paine. father. mr. jenner. and arthur m. young is the stepfather of your husband, michael ralph paine? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. and charles morris young is the stepgrandfather of your husband, is that correct? mrs. paine. yes; that is correct. mr. jenner. all right. mrs. paine, would you please give us your reactions to and your concept of marina oswald as a person, your reflections on her personality generally, and her character and integrity, her philosophy? what kind of a person was she? mrs. paine. i enjoyed knowing her. she was a great deal of company to me in my home. she liked to help me with the language problems i had. she was very good at explaining a word i didn't understand in other russian words that would then make clear to me the meaning of the word i didn't understand. she is, as i have already testified, a hard worker. she liked to help around the house. she had some doubts about her ability in cooking, unfounded doubts, i felt. she wanted to learn from me about cooking. i did most of the meal preparation. but she would occasionally prepare meals, and she taught me some things. i think she is a mixture, as are many people, of confidence and lack of confidence. she knows, i am certain, that she is an intelligent and able person. but, on the other hand, as i have testified, she was hesitant to learn to pronounce--to practice pronouncing english words and didn't consider that she had much ability in english. she did say to me in the fall--i think it was after mr. hosty's visit that she observed of herself that unlike the time when she had first come to this country and did not even attempt to listen to english conversation, she had picked up enough so that it was worth her while to try to listen, and then she could pick up some words and some meaning. i may have already testified to this. i think she is a person who prized her personal privacy. she did--i should say we confided to one another about our respective marriages, as i have already testified. there was some intimacy of confidence, of this kind of confidence, i should say. but i felt that she prized and guarded her own personal privacy. she was in some ways--she talked with some enthusiasm and detail to me about her time in minsk, when she was dating and the good times that she had had there, living at that time with her aunt and uncle in minsk--how she enjoyed herself, and something of the social life she enjoyed. she spoke of spending time with hairdos and clothes, what to wear, and when she looked back on it, girlish pastimes that she had no time for now as a young mother. mr. jenner. did she ever say anything to you--you brought something out about russia--about any hopes or desires or thoughts about america while she was in russia? mrs. paine. she did say once that she had dreamed of coming to america. i think she meant dreamed while sleeping. mr. jenner. i beg your pardon? mrs. paine. i think she meant dreamed while sleeping. mr. jenner. did she indicate anything beyond that--that is, that she had a dream--did she indicate any hope or desire or affinity, willingness to come to america? mrs. paine. yes; that this was also a hope on her part. mr. jenner. did she indicate this was a hope prior to the time she had married lee oswald? mrs. paine. it wasn't clear to me when this hope arose. mr. jenner. did she indicate it was a hope or desire on her part wholly divorced from lee oswald? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. now, you were telling me about your impressions of marina's personality, her character, her integrity. mrs. paine. we spoke once, to my recollection, about our respective beliefs in god. she told me that she observed, looking at the nations of the world, and their religious books, like the bible, the koran, that people all over the world for centuries believed in god, had this faith, and she felt that such an idea could not arise so many places as it were spontaneously and live on so many places unless there were something to it. mr. jenner. did she say anything about the philosophy in russia toward religion as negative or positive? mrs. paine. this was implied. i can't give you a specific reference, except that she did say her grandmother was a very religious person. mr. jenner. by the way, did she have her children baptized in this country? mrs. paine. one of the first things i knew--and this was told to me in march of --one of the first times i went to see her at their apartment, on neely street, she showed me a baptismal certificate for june, and was pleased with how nice it looked, its attractive form. i have since read in the paper that she had this baptismal ceremony without lee's knowledge and consent. she made no reference to me at that time of that sort, and nothing to indicate that i shouldn't tell anyone i pleased, lee included, that there was such a baptismal certificate, or refer to it freely. mr. jenner. in her discussions of her life in russia, did there arise occasions when she discussed communism or the communist party or people who were interested in communism or the communist party in russia? mrs. paine. she referred rather disparagingly to some of the young communist youth group people. she felt they were rather dull and attended meetings and heard the same thing over and over, said much the same thing. she also spoke disparagingly of the content of this paper which i said she told me was from minsk, and always containing many columns of speech by khrushchev, speech by khrushchev, speech by comrade chairman of the presidium, whatever khrushchev was. and she found this very dull. very repetitious. she, herself, expressed interest in the movies and theater activities in the town. she always turned to this portion---- mr. jenner. legitimate theater? mrs. paine. yes. she turned to this portion---- mr. jenner. when you say town, you mean minsk? mrs. paine. yes. she turned to this portion of the newspaper and really expressed herself as only interested in that. in this connection, i can say she told me the plots of movies that she had seen some years before, and retold them in some detail, with considerable interest. mr. jenner. did she say anything about having seen movies in russia originating in america, in the united states? mrs. paine. possibly. i don't recall specifically. mr. jenner. did she indicate how she had acquired her interest in the united states? mrs. paine. no; she didn't. mr. jenner. what was leading her to be favorably disposed to come and live in this country? mrs. paine. no; she did not. she spoke of having met some young cuban students who were traveling in russia, or studying in minsk, or both--i am not certain. but she commented on how latin their personality was, how warm and open, and how they would strum guitars in the street and go about in noisy crowds. mr. jenner. did she ever say anything to you or intimate at any time prior to november --let's say prior to november --of any desire, attempt or otherwise on the part of lee oswald to reach cuba? mrs. paine. no; she did not. mr. jenner. was--were the references to cuba limited to those with regard to castro on the fpcc incident in new orleans? mrs. paine. lee is the only one who mentioned the fpcc incident, and then without the initials or name of that organization. and then, of course, this reference in minsk was to students who had been there only. mr. jenner. you have given me a number of specifics. but i don't think you have yet told me your opinion of marina oswald the person, insofar as her character, integrity, general philosophy--as a person and a woman. mrs. paine. i like her and care a lot about her. i feel that--as i have testified, any full communication between us was limited by my modest command of the language, and that we were also and are different sorts of people. i feel that i cannot predict how she might feel in a particular situation, whereas some of my friends i feel i can guess that they would feel as i would in a situation. i don't have that feeling about marina. she is more of an enigma to me. mr. jenner. but you say she is an appreciative person? mrs. paine. yes; i would. i could not convince her of how helpful it was to me to have her at my home in the fall of . she was--thanked me too much, i felt. it was very helpful to me, to have her there, both because i was lonely, and because i was interested in the language. and i also reassured her many times that it was not costing me unduly financially--that this was not a burden. but i never felt i fully convinced her. mr. jenner. well, is there anything you would like to say off record or add to this record with respect to marina oswald as a person? mrs. paine. i think i have said the bulk of it. mr. jenner. i will ask you this--your view or opinion as to whether marina oswald was or could have been an agent of the government of the union of soviet socialist republic. mrs. paine. my opinion is that she could not have been. mr. jenner. she was not and could not have been? mrs. paine. was not and could not have been. mr. jenner. i wish to include both--that she was not and could not have been? mrs. paine. my impression was distinctly that she was not. i don't exclude the possibility that she could have been. i don't feel i have knowledge. it would seem to me highly unlikely. but that is different from being certain. i might add this. i think--things she said to me on the evening of the d. mr. jenner. d of november ? mrs. paine. after we had returned from the police station. mr. jenner. you had returned to your home after being at the police station? mrs. paine. we returned to the home, had dinner, had talked for a little while in the living room, seen and sent home two life reporters, and then were preparing for bed. and she and i talked a little bit, standing in the kitchen. she said both of the following things in a spirit of confusion and with a stunned quality, i would say, to her voice and her manner. she said to me all the information she had or most of it that she had about the kennedy family came to her through translation from lee, and that she thought---- mr. jenner. what do you mean translation? mrs. paine. well, in other words, if lee read in the paper something about the kennedys, or if there was something in time magazine about them, he would translate to marina, that is, put into russian what was said in this news media, and, therefore, inform her. and she thought that if he had had negative feelings about kennedy, that this would have come along with the translation from lee. but there was no such indication of dislike from lee to her. mr. jenner. now, this impressed you why? mrs. paine. i just record that she said it. mr. jenner. it has impressed you to the point at which you wish to relate it here. why is that? you were relating it to what--to her groping as to why her husband committed this act? mrs. paine. her wondering whether he could have, but not in a defensive way, but in this stunned way that i am trying to describe. and in the same way she told me that---- mr. jenner. that is, is it your concept that she was ruminating--how could he have said these things or called her attention to these things with respect to president kennedy, and still have assassinated him? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. was it in the sense that she was hurt, she could not understand it--or was she trying to rationalize that her husband, because of this, could not have assassinated the president? mrs. paine. it was more in the sense being hurt and confused. not concluding that he had assassinated the president. but not attempting to conclude from this small piece of information that he had not. she also said that just the night before, the evening of the st, lee had said to her he wanted to get an apartment soon, just as soon as she could, together again. and this was said very much with a feeling of hurt. mr. jenner. hurt what? mrs. paine. well, i have to interpret, because we didn't talk about it. but my interpretation was that here he was making this gesture of caring for her, and wanting to bring the family together, and live with her again on a full-time basis. but then on the other hand, how could he be suggesting this if he had been planning to do something which would inevitably lead to the break-up of the family. this, again, in the spirit of the other comment from her just related, of confusion and hurt, rather than defense. mr. jenner. that is, rather than defense of him? mrs. paine. of him; yes. mr. jenner. anything else? mrs. paine. nothing else. mr. jenner. do you have a recollection of having written your sister in june of --as a matter of fact, on june , --[see ruth paine exhibit , and transcript , post.] in which, to orient the letter, you stated, "last saturday i started russian class," and that was your class at the university of pennsylvania in the summer of --in which you recounted the reasons why you were undertaking the study of russian. do you recall such a letter? mrs. paine. i don't recall the letter, but it certainly is likely i wrote it. mr. jenner. in which you said, one, that you enjoyed the study of languages. is it a fact that that was one of the motivations? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and, two, that the language would be socially useful to you? mrs. paine. socially? mr. jenner. would be socially useful to you. mrs. paine. i don't understand what that meant. mr. jenner. well, i can't explain it. i assume it meant that you were recounting that you might use it in your social intercourse with others who also spoke russian, in seeking--for example, concerning your pen pal activity and that sort of thing. this does not awaken anything? mrs. paine. it doesn't awaken any recollection; no. mr. jenner. all right. three, that it advanced your "interest in russian exchange." mrs. paine. well, i may have hoped so, starting russian. but my actual skill didn't progress fast enough to be of any real use. mr. jenner. and, also, that ever since, "the young friends conference in ," you had felt a leaning to the study of language. mrs. paine. that is correct. and i have so testified--i used the word "calling" in the testimony. mr. jenner. and do you recall emphasizing in that letter that the study of russian on your part was an intellectual decision, using those very words--intellectual decision? mrs. paine. i don't recall using those words. it is reasonable. mr. jenner. as you recall back now, was that--did that activate you? mrs. paine. i am not entirely certain what i meant by intellectual decision. mr. jenner. i assume you meant a deliberate one. mrs. paine. oh, yes. mr. jenner. one of intellectual curiosity? mrs. paine. i would judge so. mr. jenner. do you recall writing your mother, as far back as october , that--no; this letter was to your whole family--that is, those back in columbus, addressed to your mother, your father, and--what was--essie? mrs. paine. well, i think probably family in this case just was my mother and father at that time. essie is my brother's wife. mr. jenner. in which you then said you were thinking about studying russian as an intellectual pursuit? does that sound like something you might have said then? mrs. paine. it sounds like i thought myself more intellectual at the time than i do now. mr. jenner. but as you harken back on it, the elements i have now recounted to you from correspondence with your mother and your folks, are those factors which at least impelled you at that age and that development in your life to undertake the study of russian? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and these are all in addition to those reasons that you gave us yesterday, of course. mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. i would like to know if you had any conversations with marina on any of the following subjects. i have a long list, most of which you have already covered, and i will skip those. have you now recounted to us all of the conversations you had with marina respecting interviews by the fbi? mrs. paine. to the best of my recollection; yes. mr. jenner. any conversations--have you told us all on the subject of lee oswald's texas school book depository job, his reactions to it, the nature of the work, his fellow employees? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. did he ever speak of his fellow employees at the depository? mrs. paine. no; except wesley, who drove him to work. mr. jenner. you have told us all he has ever recounted to you on the subject of his military service? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. his political views? mrs. paine. yes; i believe i have told you all. mr. jenner. any particular books in which he was interested? mrs. paine. i don't know of any books. mr. jenner. all right. mrs. paine. none that i saw him read. mr. jenner. you have told us all you can recall about oswald's treatment of marina? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and any conversations you had with him on the subject? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. did he ever discuss or did she ever discuss the matter of his dishonorable discharge from the marines? mrs. paine. that was never mentioned. mr. jenner. by either she or him? mrs. paine. that is right. not by either one. mr. jenner. you were aware of some of that, were you? you were aware of the fact that he was first honorably discharged and then when he reached russia and attempted to defect---- mrs. paine. only through reading the paper after the assassination. mr. jenner. yes. all i am seeking is, you were aware of the incident at the time that you met the oswalds? mrs. paine. no; i was aware that he had gone to russia, but not that he had received an unsatisfactory discharge, whatever the word is. mr. jenner. when did you first learn of that? mrs. paine. from the newspaper after the assassination. undesirable, the word is. mr. jenner. undesirable discharge. did he ever speak of governor connally? mrs. paine. never, to my recollection. mr. jenner. did she? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. did he ever speak or--well, did he ever speak in your presence of his dreams or aspirations? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. either for himself individually or for his family? mrs. paine. no; he didn't. mr. jenner. have you told us everything about her dreams and aspirations for herself and her family that you can now recall? mrs. paine. i don't believe i have said that she related to me that she would like some day to have her own home and her own furniture. mr. jenner. i think you told us that this morning. mrs. paine. it appears in the look article, but i don't think i mentioned it. mr. jenner. oh, yes; speaking of articles, at any time during the meeting you had with her on march , was anything said about magazine articles--let us say--did you discuss the life article with her? mrs. paine. we discussed the recent time cover issue, on which marina appeared. mr. jenner. oh, i see. what was said on that score? mrs. paine. she thought it was misleading. mr. jenner. that the article itself was misleading? mrs. paine. further, she thought it was unkind to her. mr. jenner. unkind in the sense that it was inaccurately unkind or that some things were recounted she thought ought not to have been recounted? mrs. paine. inaccurately unkind. and she said something to the effect of judging that the american people or at least portions of the press would have to look that way upon the wife of an accused assassin. with which i disagreed. mr. jenner. well, what did you say? mrs. paine. i said i thought that was time magazine in particular, and had nothing to do with the views of the populace in general, i said i thought that was better reflected by the letters that she had gotten from a great many thoughtful and concerned people who had written to her of their sympathy and support. mr. jenner. did she respond to that comment on your part? mrs. paine. i don't recall any particular thing she said. mr. jenner. did she evidence any feeling or reaction in your meeting on march to the generosity of americans who had made these contributions voluntarily? mrs. paine. yes; she did, particularly in response to a comment i made. mr. jenner. tell us that. mrs. paine. we had been talking about the lawyer and business manager whom she is trying to fire. mr. jenner. that is mr. thorne and mr. martin? mrs. paine. yes; and i said she has seen the range of kind of people in america--one side the many generous people who sent her thoughtful notes and small checks to help her in her financial difficulty, and on the other side the wolves who wanted to gain money from this situation for themselves. and she concurred in that. mr. jenner. she was aware of that distinction? did she indicate an awareness of that? mrs. paine. she thought that was an apt description; yes. i felt that she thought that. mr. jenner. now, have you told us everything you can recall about lee oswald's ability to drive an automobile and operate an automobile, and your efforts to improve that driving capacity, and his efforts to obtain a driver's license? is there anything at all now that you can recall that you have not told us? mrs. paine. there isn't anything at all. mr. jenner. was there any conversation any time with respect to lee oswald himself returning to russia, as distinguished from marina being returned to russia? mrs. paine. there was no conversation of any sort nor any implication of that to me at any time. mr. jenner. was there any discussion at any time on the subject of his desiring to obtain or having obtained a passport to russia in the summer of or any other time? mrs. paine. there was no discussion of this at any time in my presence. mr. jenner. and were you aware at any time prior to november , , that he had obtained or had applied for a passport? mrs. paine. no; and i wasn't aware until later, in fact. mr. jenner. have you told us everything now on the subject of lee oswald's efforts with respect to marina returning to russia? mrs. paine. all that i recall. mr. jenner. have you told us everything that you can recall respecting president kennedy and mrs. kennedy and any comments or observations on the part of either lee oswald or marina oswald with respect to the kennedys? mrs. paine. i have related all my recollections. mr. jenner. have you related all your recollections respecting the attitude of either of them toward the government of the united states? mrs. paine. yes; i believe so. mr. jenner. is there anything you now recall in addition to what you have testified to with respect to the connection of either of them with or contacts, rather than connection--of either of them with the communist party in the united states? mrs. paine. i was not aware of any contact by either of them with the communist party in the united states. mr. jenner. and the same question with respect to the socialist workers party. mrs. paine. nor was i aware of any such contact. mr. jenner. would you now give us your impression of lee oswald's personality? was he a person who sought friends, was he a man who sought his own comfort, his own consolation? i am just trying to illustrate what i am getting at. was he a man who, to use the vernacular, was a loner? do you know what i mean by that? mrs. paine. i have heard the word used a great deal. mr. jenner. a man who preferred his own company, or at least appears to prefer his own company, and does not seek out others, does not seek to make friends, or even has an aversion to the making of friends, that he is reticent, retiring. mrs. paine. i think it was here this morning that i described him as a person whom i thought was fearful of actually making friends, and, therefore, reticent, who did keep to himself in fact a good deal. but i think he did enjoy talking with other people--at least some of the time. he did watch television a great deal of the total time that he was at my house. and he would finish the evening meal earlier than the rest of the people at the table and leave to go back to the living room to read or watch television, and not just stay to converse. he would eat to be fed rather than as a social event. mr. jenner. i see. just to make sure we have the record clear on this--because it is of interest in other sections of this investigation--except for the one or two instances you have related, his habit was to remain in your home the entire weekend whenever he visited? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. were there any occasions in which he related or recounted, or she, of his having made any friendships in dallas? mrs. paine. he never mentioned anyone he knew. mr. jenner. did he say anything about what he did after hours, after work hours in dallas? mrs. paine. only the reference i have already related, of having been to the national indignation committee meeting. mr. jenner. that was the only occasion? what was your impression of what he did, from all you heard and saw in your home when he was there, or any conversations you had with marina, as to how he occupied his time after work hours, during the week when he remained in dallas? mrs. paine. my impression, insofar as i have one, is that he spent evenings at his room, and he had mentioned, as i have said, that the room he had moved to had television privileges, and i, therefore, guessed that he made use of that opportunity. mr. jenner. did you have the impression, or what impression did you have on this score--as to whether he was a man who had--who somewhat lacked confidence in himself, or might have been resentful that he was not generally accepted as a man of capacity? mrs. paine. i think he had a combination of a lack of confidence in himself and a mistaken, as i have said, overblown impression of himself, these operating at the same time. i think he felt that he wanted more skilled work than he was doing at the school book depository. but the major impression i carry about his feeling of work at the school book depository was that it was income, and he was glad to have it. i recall marina's saying that lee oswald looked upon his brother robert as a fool in that he was primarily interested in his home and family and that his interests in the world didn't really step beyond that. marina commented then herself on this, and said she thought those were very legitimate interests. mr. jenner. in his presence? mrs. paine. no; not in his presence. she was telling me what lee had said when he was not there. mr. jenner. what is your impression of robert oswald? mrs. paine. well, as i have testified, i have very little impression of him, having only met him twice. i might add to that that he seems a nice guy, as far as i can see--fairly regular, plain person. but that is my guess. i cannot say i have a clear impression of my own. mr. jenner. do you recall an occasion when marina had a conversation with mrs. gravitis? mrs. paine. by telephone. oh, no; we went over one time, i think. mr. jenner. and there was a conversation that went back and forth about their life in the united states up to that point? mrs. paine. yes; some of that conversation went back and forth faster than i could follow it. mr. jenner. well, do you recall an incident in the course of that conversation in which mrs. gravitis made a remark that anyone could get work in that locality, and that there was plenty of construction work going on, to which marina responded that construction work was beneath the dignity of her husband? mrs. paine. no; i recall a conversation of this nature, or you have just recalled it to me, that mrs. gravitis thought that jobs were available if you were willing to do the work. i don't recall just what marina's reply was. i do recall her saying that he found his work at the minsk factory more physically heavy than he was easily able to handle, and the reference to--i don't recall her objection to the mention of construction, but if there was one i would guess it was more this nature, than indicating being above such things. mr. jenner. that he might find heavy construction work or construction work generally physically difficult? mrs. paine. yes; this from my recollection of what she said about the minsk job, not from my recollection of this conversation. mr. jenner. do you recall during the course of that conversation some comments in which marina implied that when they were in fort worth, at least, that, arising out of her experience there, that both of them rather did not want further contact with the people in fort worth because her husband lee did not agree with them personality wise? mrs. paine. i don't recall anything of that nature. mr. jenner. do you ever recall her saying during the course of that conversation that her husband was an idealist? mrs. paine. i don't recall that, either. i have been trying to recall whether the name of peter gregory came up in any conversation with marina. i have earlier testified today that it was my impression that i had not heard his name until the d of november. i have a vague impression that he was mentioned, or that this name was known to me. but it is very hard for me to get a hold of. mr. jenner. to recall, you mean? mrs. paine. to recall; yes. at some point, and it might have been that afternoon of the d, or it might have been earlier, there was a conversation which has left me with the clear impression that marina admired and thought highly of peter gregory. mr. jenner. peter is the father or the son? mrs. paine. peter is the father. but, as i say, my recollection is vague on this, and i don't know when that conversation might have taken place. mr. jenner. did you ever say to your sister that you were of the opinion that lee oswald was a communist? mrs. paine. i don't recall. mr. jenner. does the group known as the women's international league for peace and democracy--is that a group with which you are familiar? mrs. paine. i have heard the name. i can't recall whether i have ever joined or not. i wouldn't think so. but i just don't recall. mr. jenner. your best recollection at the moment is that you cannot recall having had any contact with that group? mrs. paine. except possibly some literature. mr. jenner. between the st and the th of november , did you make any effort to obtain the address of lee oswald in dallas? mrs. paine. no; i did not. mr. jenner. how tall are you, mrs. paine? mrs. paine. around feet inches. mr. jenner. i will ask you this general question. i take it, mrs. paine, that your study of and interest in the russian language did not emanate in any degree from any interest on your part in associating yourself with any activities which were in turn to be associated with russia and the communist party or communist interests. mrs. paine. it certainly did not stem from any such interest. mr. jenner. and your continued pursuit of it does not stem from any such motivation? mrs. paine. no; it does not. mr. jenner. i think i have asked you this, but i want to make sure it is in the record. you are a pacificist? mrs. paine. i consider myself such. i don't like to consider myself as rigidly adhering to any particular doctrine. i believe in appraising a situation and determining my own action in terms of that particular situation, and not making a rigid or blanket philosophy dictate my behavior. mr. jenner. but you are opposed to violence? mrs. paine. i am. mr. jenner. whether it be violence for the overthrow of a government, or a chink in the government, or physical violence of any kind or character? mrs. paine. yes; i consider it to be--violence to be--always harmful to the values i believe in, and just reserve the right to, as i have said, appraise each situation in the light of that initial belief. mr. jenner. mrs. paine, you have read a number of newspaper articles and also various magazine articles dealing with the tragedy of november , , and the oswalds, and even of yourself. do you have an overall reaction of any kind to those articles and newspaper stories, particularly with respect to their accuracy, you knowing what you do as to what the actual facts were and are? mrs. paine. there are several things i might say in reply to that. first, i have thought about someday teaching a course in high school on the subject of newspaper and magazine accuracy, using this particular story of the assassination of president kennedy as source material. i have been impressed with both the inaccuracy of things i have read and my inability to judge inaccuracy when they do not--when the story does not refer to things i personally know about. on the whole, my feeling has been that the press has been pretty accurate in reporting what i have said. i have by no means seen all of what was reported of what i said. i might say in this connection, but in a slightly different department, that you will see a large stack of newspapers on a table in my house when you come. they represent the newspapers i have not yet---- mr. jenner. perused? mrs. paine. more than that--not yet found courage enough to read. they are the newspapers of late november and of december. and while i have tried to read them, i usually end crying, and so i have not gotten very far. i might say, just to be perfectly clear, that my problem is my grief over the death of the president. that is what brings me to tears--much more than my own personal touch with the story--although this just makes more poignant my grief. mr. jenner. i will read some listings that appeared in lee oswald's memorandum or diary or address book, and ask you whether they were mentioned during the period of your acquaintance with the oswalds, or whether you might have heard about them otherwise. the russ.-amer. citizenship club, snyder avenue. mrs. paine. i have never heard of the organization, and i am not certain where such a street might be. mr. jenner. well, i am not, either. i am just reading all of the entry there is in the diary. mrs. paine. and i am to simply say whether it rings any bell? mr. jenner. that is right. russ. language school, spruce. mrs. paine. i know the spruce street is in philadelphia, but, otherwise, that rings no bell. mr. jenner. russian lan., and then trn.-- south th. mrs. paine. i don't know. mr. jenner. i assume that means russian language---- mrs. paine. training? mr. jenner. trn. mrs. paine. probably. it is not familiar to me. mr. jenner. next, russ. groth. hos. organ. mrs. paine. could it be hospitality? mr. jenner. it might be. i will read it in full. russ. groth. hosp. organ, spring. mrs. paine. this organization is not familiar to me. may i say each street appears in philadelphia. in other words, snyder, i recall as being in philadelphia, and spring is. mr. jenner. this is spruce. mrs. paine. spruce was the first one i recall. the last you mentioned was spring; is that right? mr. jenner. yes. none of those entries awakens anything in your mind in any respect? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. during these weekends in the fall period, when marina was living with you, i take it your husband visited at your home? mrs. paine. that is correct. mr. jenner. did he visit on other than weekends? mrs. paine. occasionally. it seems to me he often came on tuesday evening. and then he came on friday, and sometimes on sunday afternoon, as i have testified. mr. jenner. he would visit friday evening and then return to his quarters. and he would visit reasonably often on sunday and return to his quarters? mrs. paine. every now and then on sunday, i would say. and then sometimes during the week on a tuesday or wednesday. mr. jenner. mrs. paine, if you had become aware prior to november of the fact, if it be a fact, that there was a rifle in the blanket wrapped package on the floor of your garage, what do you think now you would have done? mrs. paine. i can say certainly i would not have wanted it there. and that my pacifist feelings would have entered into my consideration of the subject. i cannot say certainly what i would have done, of course. and, as i have described myself and my beliefs, i like to consider the situation that i am in and react according to that situation, rather than to have doctrine or rigid belief. i can certainly say this. i would have asked that it be entirely out of reach of children or out of sight of children. mr. jenner. well, when the fbi agent interviewed you on november , had you known of the existence of the rifle on the floor of the garage, what is your present thought as to what you might have done with respect to advising the fbi of its existence? mrs. paine. i would seriously doubt that i would have considered it of significance to the fbi. i know that a great many people in texas go deer hunting. as one of the fbi agents said to me after the assassination, he surmised that every other house in the street had a rifle, a deer rifle. i would have simply considered this was offensive to me, but of no consequence or interest to them. mr. jenner. you see what i am getting at. would the existence of your knowledge of the rifle on the floor of your garage, connected with lee oswald's history as you knew it up to that point, and some of the suspicions that you voiced in your testimony with respect to lee oswald, have led you to be apprehensive out of the ordinary as to the existence of that rifle on the floor of your garage? mrs. paine. i don't believe i would have assumed that this rifle was for any other purpose than deer hunting. mr. jenner. did the fbi, any of the fbi agents inquire of you prior to november , , as to whether there were any firearms in and about your home? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. did any fbi agent inquire of you as to whether you thought there was any suspicious--anything suspicious about lee harvey oswald that caused you any concern with respect to the safety of the government of the united states or any individual in it, in that government? mrs. paine. no; they made no such inquiry. mr. jenner. and i would repeat this line of questioning with respect to marina as well as lee. would your answers be the same if i did? mrs. paine. yes; they would be the same. mr. jenner. mrs. paine, marina testified of her impression that when lee returned to dallas, and then to your home on the th of october , that he--when he came to your home he had a valise or a suitcase. mrs. paine. marina testified, did you say? mr. jenner. yes. what impression do you have in that respect? i realize that when you reached your home he was out on the front lawn. mrs. paine. on what day? mr. jenner. fourth of october . mrs. paine. no. he arrived at my home before i did on the th of october. mr. jenner. yes; i said that. mrs. paine. but it was on the st of november that he was out on the front lawn when i arrived. my recollection is that---- mr. jenner. please. i am referring back to the time that he came from dallas initially. that was the th of october. mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. do you have any recollection as to any luggage of any kind or character that he might or did bring with him on that occasion? mrs. paine. none. mr. jenner. none whatsoever. did you ever see him take any luggage out of your home anytime after he had come to your home on october ? mrs. paine. yes. and, as i believe i have testified, it is my impression that i took him to the bus station in irving on the th of october, and then he carried both shirts over his arm freshly ironed, and this green zipper bag. but this is my impression. mr. jenner. in any event, at no time from october--including october to november did you see him have in his possession any luggage other than the green zipper bag? mrs. paine. that he was carrying? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. my statement is correct? mrs. paine. i have no recollection of any other kind of luggage being used by him. mr. jenner. did the subject of abortion--was the subject of abortion ever one discussed between you and marina? mrs. paine. yes. and i think i have so testified. when--part of our first meeting, as we talked in the park, or close to the first meeting, after having left her apartment in march, and walked to the park--she told me that she was going to have a baby, and she said that she didn't believe in abortion. mr. jenner. is that when the discussion occurred on birth control? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and was that discussion on birth control directed towards her avoiding a larger family? mrs. paine. future pregnancies; yes. mr. jenner. it was devoted solely to that? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. representative ford has left with me some questions. i think probably i might have covered them all. would you give us, please, your views with respect to what you understand to be the russian system or philosophy--that is, i am not seeking your views as to what it is, but as to either your sympathy or empathy or aversion to it. mrs. paine. i am of the opinion that--saying the russian system is rather a larger statement than saying the communist system. but it may be that the question was intended to speak about the communists, or governmental system. mr. jenner. i think that probably is the thrust of representative ford's inquiry. mrs. paine. well, as i have already testified, i dislike deception in any form. i might go on to say that i think the people of russia on the whole have very little choice about their leaders at elections or---- mr. jenner. it is the antithesis of democracy? mrs. paine. yes; it is certainly a dictatorship. mr. jenner. and that is abhorent to you? mrs. paine. yes; it is. mr. jenner. i take it, then, far from having any sympathy with or admiration for communism or what we might call the russian system or philosophy, you have an aversion? mrs. paine. i have an aversion. mr. jenner. have you ever studied karl marx? mrs. paine. no; not in the sense of studied. i think one history course in college included a few readings from karl marx. mr. jenner. your readings of karl marx's writings have been confined to your work at antioch college as a student? mrs. paine. yes. and they were very brief. mr. jenner. did you ever read the manifesto? mrs. paine. the communist manifesto? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. paine. that was part of the same course. mr. jenner. but there, again, your studying of it or reading of it was limited to the college course? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. and you did not pursue it thereafter? mrs. paine. no; i did not. mr. jenner. and if i asked you the same question with respect to das capital, would your answers be the same? mrs. paine. i have seen the size of the book, and i certainly would not want to read it. mr. jenner. in any event, you have not read it? mrs. paine. i have not read it. mr. jenner. even in connection with a college course? mrs. paine. even in connection with a college course. i think i would have fudged on that assignment, had it been assigned. mr. jenner. i gather from your testimony you certainly do not consider yourself a communist. mrs. paine. i certainly do not. mr. jenner. and quite the contrary. mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. tell us what your activities--you are a member of the american civil liberties union? mrs. paine. i am. mr. jenner. what have been your activities in connection with that organization? mrs. paine. primarily to send in my membership fee each year. i have been a member for some years prior--that is to say, going back to the time prior to my marriage. i have recently, perhaps a year ago, became on the membership committee for the local chapter in dallas. that chapter, i might say, only just opened a year and a half ago. mr. jenner. and have you, as part of those activities, sought to enlist others to become members of the american civil liberties union? mrs. paine. i have talked to perhaps half a dozen people, to encourage them; yes. mr. jenner. did you ever discuss this organization with lee oswald? mrs. paine. yes; i did. mr. jenner. have you told us in your testimony up to this moment all of your discussion of that organization with lee oswald? mrs. paine. yes; i have. i call your attention to my testimony of a conversation with lee over the phone saying that i thought that if he was losing his job because of his political views, that this would be of interest to the civil liberties union. mr. jenner. did any of those discussions embrace the question of what possible help this organization might be to him if he got into trouble eventually? mrs. paine. my judgment is that he took that statement i have just referred to as an implication of the possibility of help from that organization to him personally. mr. jenner. with reference particularly to the possible need at any time for counsel? mrs. paine. he may have assumed such a thing. my understanding of the civil liberties union is that they are not interested in just defending people, but in defending rights or entering a case where there is doubt that a person's civil liberties have been properly upheld. mr. jenner. or might be? mrs. paine. or there might be such doubt; yes. i wouldn't know whether lee understood that. mr. jenner. at least your discussions with him do not enable you to proceed to the point at which to enable you to voice any opinions in this area or subject than you have now given? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. were you aware of the name john abt before you received the telephone call you testified about from lee oswald? mrs. paine. no; i had not heard that name. mr. jenner. and, therefore, you never suggested it to lee oswald? mrs. paine. no; that is right. mr. jenner. you are a modest person, but could you indicate for us how fluent you are or you think you are in the command of the russian language? please don't be too modest about it. be as objective as you can. mrs. paine. it is a very hard thing to describe, but i might start by saying that i have perhaps an or -year-old's vocabulary. mr. jenner. you are using as an example the vocabulary of a native russian citizen of the age of to years old? mrs. paine. yes; i do not have that much fluency. if the subject i am talking about is something in which i have developed a vocabulary--and these subjects are mostly in terms of home or the things that one does--then i can proceed with an ability to convey my meaning. if it gets into anything technical which would use terms such as insurance or taxes, i have to look it up. i approach any writing of a letter with some dread, as it is difficult for me. i might say in this connection that i presume to teach russian, not because i am fluent, but because i think my pronunciation is particularly good for a nonnative, and because i have gone the route of the beginning student and know how to do this, and have thought a great deal about what helps a person to learn. i would not presume to teach english to people who didn't know the language, though i am fluent in it. mr. jenner. yes; you are. you used a -year-old comparison as to vocabulary. what would you say as to your russian grammar--that is, command of the technicalities of grammar? would it be superior to an -to -year-old? mrs. paine. my vocabulary---- mr. jenner. i mean sentence construction. mrs. paine. an -to -year-old would do better than i do in actual conversation, but would not be able to give you the names of parts of speech as i can in russian. i have a book knowledge of grammar in russian. but this doesn't prevent me from making more mistakes than an -or -year-old would make if he grew up native to the language--many more mistakes. mr. jenner. would you say that is true of your writing--that is, when you compose a letter? mrs. paine. my writing would be with fewer mistakes, because i can think about it more in putting it down, but still very many mistakes occur in it. mr. jenner. would you say your fluency in the command of the russian language as of the time you first met the oswalds in february of was comparably about the same as your fluency with that language now? mrs. paine. i have improved, particularly over the period of months that marina was at my home--i have improved my ability to converse, and certainly increased my vocabulary very markedly. mr. jenner. your experience with marina has served to improve your command both of vocabulary and of the use of the language generally? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. how fluent was--i will put it this way. how would you judge the command of lee oswald of the russian language, both as to vocabulary and as to sentence construction, and grammar generally? mrs. paine. he had a larger vocabulary than i do in russian. he had less understanding of the grammar, and considerably less regard for it. mr. jenner. he was not sensitive to the delicacies of the language? mrs. paine. he didn't seem to care whether he was speaking it right or not, whereas i care a great deal. he did read--he certainly subscribed to the things that i have described. and my impression is that he did read them some, and that he did not shy away from reading a russian newspaper as i do. i find newspaper reading still very hard, and magazines, also. i have to do a great deal of dictionary work to get the full meaning of a magazine or newspaper article. mr. jenner. do you think that is because you are a sensitive perfectionist as far as the language is concerned? you wish to read it and use it in its finest sense, and you avoid what i would call, for example, pigeon english use of russian? mrs. paine. i would rather communicate than avoid pigeon use, and i have to use broken russian to communicate. in reading, i would say what i have described as my reading--it is just that i don't have a very large vocabulary--not that i want to understand every nuance of the words that i am reading. i just can't get the meaning reading it off. mr. jenner. yet you found that lee was inclined to plunge ahead, as near as you can tell? mrs. paine. i gathered so. mr. jenner. did marina ever say anything about lee oswald's command of the russian language, or his use of it? mrs. paine. yes; she did. let me preface my answer by saying she did not correct him, or at least not very often. she commented at one time in the fall, after lee came to the house on a friday, that his russian was getting worse, whereas mine was getting better, so that i spoke better than he did now. it embarrassed me, is the only reason i recall her saying it. mr. jenner. did she say it in his presence? mrs. paine. yes; she did. that is why i was embarrassed. i did not know whether it was correct or not, and she had intended it as a compliment, but it was at the same time unkind to him. so this is why i was embarrassed. mr. jenner. tell us everything you learned about oswald's sojourn in russia, first from direct statements you heard him make--and this will be in addition to anything you have already told us. mrs. paine. i can't recall anything that hasn't appeared in my testimony. and there is very little that has appeared in my testimony. mr. jenner. yes; i appreciate that. did he ever say anything about--i think you did testify a little bit about this yesterday--his efforts to obtain a passport to return to the united slates, and his difficulties in that connection? mrs. paine. my recollection is that it was she who told me of this. mr. jenner. and she rather than lee? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. calling upon your recollection, is there anything you have not testified to on that particular subject---- mrs. paine. of things he had told me himself? mr. jenner. that is right. that emanated from him. mrs. paine. i don't think of anything. mr. jenner. now, i will then ask you the same question as to marina--that is, tell us everything else you can think of that you have not already told us that you learned about lee oswald's sojourn in russia, that you might have learned through marina. mrs. paine. well, i did learn that they applied for a passport for all of them, that it was a long time coming--no particular length of time mentioned. that they went to moscow first and then by train, i gather, to holland, and then by boat to new york city, stayed there a day or less, and came directly to fort worth. she mentioned to me, as i testified, that they had borrowed money for the payment of their steamship passage. mr. jenner. borrowed it from the state department? mrs. paine. i don't recall that she mentioned from whom. just that they had borrowed it and paid it back. she said that lee had an apartment by himself in minsk, which was unusual. mr. jenner. did she say it was unusual? mrs. paine. yes; she said it was unusual. that, in fact, it caused a little bit of resentment from those who didn't have so much privacy. and i gather that she moved into it after they were married. mr. jenner. that is a fact, at least according to her testimony. mrs. paine. i have spoken to some extent of her aunt and uncle--that she lived there. is this relevant to your question? mr. jenner. yes; it is relevant to representative ford's question, which i ghosted to you. mrs. paine. she liked her aunt very much, and commented to me several times that it was interesting that this particular aunt was no blood relation at all--it was the uncle that was the blood relation. but that this aunt was her favorite aunt. and they had many good conversations. marina would go out on a date, and then come back and tell the aunt all about it. marina commented that the aunt did not work, which she also said was unusual. mr. jenner. unusual in what sense? mrs. paine. that most women in russia both did work and had to financially. mr. jenner. was that--did you infer from that that her uncle had a position in russia that enabled him to supply funds so that his wife did not have to work? mrs. paine. that was the impression it left me with, yes. she also said of her aunt that her aunt kept her floors spotless, and her whole house beautiful all the time. you want all the recollections i have of their time in minsk? mr. jenner. anywhere in russia. mrs. paine. including her family background? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. paine. well, i knew because i had filled out forms for her at parkland hospital that she was born at archangel. from conversation with her, i know she was born months early. mr. jenner. she was a -month baby, somewhat premature? mrs. paine. yes; and her mother had bundled her up in great swaths of clothing to bring her from archangel to leningrad, when she was a tiny baby. i learned that the grandmother had been with her, i judge later in archangel, when they lived there again, and was part of her upbringing. her mother had some medical job--i never did understand. mr. jenner. you mean job in the sense of position? mrs. paine. position. i never did understand how responsible this was--whether she was a medical doctor or what her position was. marina described the time when her mother died of cancer, and that also her grandmother died before the year was out of cancer, also. mr. jenner. did she ever speak of her father? mrs. paine. she said that her father had died when she was very tiny, that she did not know her father, that she was raised by her mother and stepfather, and she did not know until it came out from something a neighbor let drop, when she was already in her early teens, that this man she thought to be her father was not in fact her father but her stepfather. this came as a shock to her. i knew that she had a younger brother and sister, tatyana, i think, tanya would be the diminutive. i don't recall her brother's name. it is my impression that she liked leningrad, was proud of it. mr. jenner. did she ever say why she went from leningrad to minsk, or the circumstances under which--which surrounded her going from leningrad to minsk? mrs. paine. no; she never did. she did say that some people commented to her that it was strange to be leaving leningrad, because there were many people who wanted to work in leningrad who evidently didn't have the necessary priority or permission to get into the city to work there. she having been brought up there had the right to live there and work there. but this was the first i knew that you could not just move from one city to another in russia if you wanted to look for work. mr. jenner. did you have a discussion with her from time to time about the fact that you could move about in russia only by permission. mrs. paine. well, she mentioned--and i think i have said so--that you don't go to a different city in russia without its being known. you have to register immediately upon coming to the city, show all your papers, and then the government assigns you your quarters--hotel or apartment or any room. you cannot get a place to spend the night if you don't sign in. which is certainly a far cry from our situation in this country. mr. jenner. did she indicate any reaction on her part to the difference--that difference in america as compared with russia? mrs. paine. it was not overtly stated. she did make clear to me that she thought the consumer goods here were superior to those in russia. she said that very likely this was in part due to the fact that people are not sure of their jobs. in russia you can do a bad job and still remain employed; whereas here she said a person had to produce good work or they didn't stay on the job. mr. jenner. this was a comment on her part on the difference in the system? russia from that in the united states? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. did she indicate any reaction to that? mrs. paine. she thought the system here produced much better goods, and she was pleased with that. she also commented that things were much more available in this country than they were in russia. she was impressed, for instance, with the fact that my neighbor offered to loan things for the baby, and my friend mrs. craig offered to loan things for the baby. she said that in russia people were not so sure that they could replace things that they had loaned or given away. you could not go to the store when you needed to have baby clothing and necessarily find it there. so there was much less--for that reason, and others--there was much less loaning and sharing of things than she found here. mr. jenner. did she say anything about the period when lee was hospitalized in russia? mrs. paine. no; i don't recall it. mr. jenner. and her visiting him every day? mrs. paine. i have no clear recollection. i do, of course, recall her description of her own pregnancy, and the birth of june in the minsk hospital. that lee was in the hospital rings very faintly. i cannot think of anything he was in there for. i have completely forgotten any reference to it--i am not sure i remember now. mr. jenner. have we exhausted you on that subject? mrs. paine. i am exhausted. mr. jenner. what is your reaction on the subject of marina's reaction in turn to her husband? did she love him? what was her opinion of him? mrs. paine. well, i think it has already appeared pretty thoroughly in my testimony that she both asked herself did she love him and did he love her, and proceeded with the feeling that she had committed herself to this, and would try to do her best for the marriage--not without occasionally wondering whether this marriage would last, or should. mr. jenner. do you have any opinion or reaction on this subject--as to whether she had perhaps at times contributed to some degree or had been at fault to some degree in provoking what outbursts there were on lee's part and his sometimes crudeness and abruptness with respect to her? mrs. paine. well, as i think i have testified, she didn't try, or certainly did not try all the time, to avoid a confrontation or an argument or disagreement. but she did argue with him and uphold her own views, rather more forcefully, at least in her skill in the language, than lee, on some occasions. i would say that if he had been a more relaxed and easy-going person, somebody that was not so touchy, that her behavior would not have been any difficulty to the marriage. rather it was a healthy thing. mr. jenner. there is an opinion at large, at least among some of us here in the united states who have pursued russian literature and published works on the russian people and the russian character, that there is a tendency or an element on the part of the russian to exaggerate and to present the bizzare. do you have any feeling or opinion on that subject with respect to marina oswald? mrs. paine. no; i do think that there is such a thing as a personality formed by the russian background, and it is a different influence, but also operating, the soviet system. but it is hard for me to describe what that is. and i would not have included the statement you just made of attempting to exaggerate or bizzare--is that the way you put it? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. paine. rather i would say it is a moodiness and a quality of enigma. not the open-faced, glad-handed texan or frontier american, but much more subtle. and i also do think that there is much more tendencies to--among russian emigrés to suspect underlying motives, and things going on beneath the surface that are not evident on the face of the situation, a tendency among them more than among americans. mr. jenner. do you find in marina any of these tendencies you now relate? mrs. paine. i find her moody. i would say she was contrary to this that i have described, of some russian people, of a quality of suspecting things going on under the surface. i found this quality rather in the head of the russian school at middlebury, who picked up my tape recorder and took it to his office one time when i had left it in the hall. he evidently thought i had bad use intended for it. mr. jenner. would you say that--give us your opinion as to marina's sense of the truth, of telling the truth, having a feeling of the truth? mrs. paine. that is difficult to say, because what questions i have about her telling of the truth have all arisen since i was with her personally. mr. jenner. yes; i wish your opinion now, as of this time. mrs. paine. you wish my opinion now? it is my opinion that this sense of privacy that i have described interferes with her being absolutely frank about the situation, and that she may, because of this lack of frankness, describe a situation in a way that is misleading, not directly false--but misleads the hearer. and this, i would say, not always in conscious design, but some of it happening quite without preplanned intent. i conclude that from the fact that i think she must have known that lee had been to mexico, judging from the materials i have already described were picked up by mr. odum and myself from the dresser drawer. mr. jenner. from that, you conclude what? mrs. paine. well, that she was willing to mislead by implication. and i would judge that she knew about the application for a passport, and this was never mentioned. all the times that she mentioned that she might have to go back to russia, the implication was that she alone was going back. and this doesn't appear to have been fully the case. mr. jenner. what leads you to say that--it wasn't fully the case in what sense? mrs. paine. well, in the sense that lee had at least applied for a passport to get him to russia. mr. jenner. you are rationalizing from the fact that you know now that he applied for a passport? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. you conclude from that that she must have known of that application and the fact that he received it? mrs. paine. and, of course, that is rationalization. mr. jenner. that is the only basis on which you make that statement? that is what i am getting at. mrs. paine. yes; i think that is all. mr. jenner. what is your opinion as to whether marina oswald would tell the truth and the whole truth under oath in response to questions put to her? mrs. paine. i would expect that she would make a dedicated attempt to tell the truth. just looking at the amount of time i have testified, as opposed to the amount of time she testified, relative to the amount of things she knows and the amount of material that i have that is of any use to the commission, she could not have yet told the whole truth, just in terms of time. mr. jenner. well, that may be affected--of course, you must understand--by the questions put to her and the subjects that were opened on her examination. mrs. paine. right. mr. jenner. but subject to that, it is your feeling that she--there is a---- mrs. paine. subject to that, i really cannot answer. i don't know what her attitude is towards her situation, which is a rather remarkable one in this case. i would guess that it is helpful to her telling the whole truth that lee is now dead. i might say i am affected in that judgment by having been present when she could not positively identify her husband's--what was thought to be his rifle at the police station, whereas i read--and perhaps it is not so--but i read that she positively identified it here at the commission. mr. jenner. but you were present when she, in your presence, was unable to identify with reasonable certainty that the weapon exhibited to her was her husband's rifle? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. and you attribute that largely to the fact that his now being deceased has in her mind released her, so that she may without fear of implicating him, were he alive, to speak fully her opinions on subjects such as that? mrs. paine. that would be my opinion. mr. jenner. i see. did she ever express any fear of lee oswald? mrs. paine. no; she never did. mr. jenner. did she ever express to you any fear that he might do something, and i use the vernacular again, crazy? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. i think we have covered this, but to be sure, did she ever mention to you that lee had anything to do with the walker incident? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. that she suspected it? mrs. paine. absolutely nothing. mr. jenner. now, since you are now aware of what has come out with respect to that, does that also affect your opinion as to her sense of truth or sense of frankness? mrs. paine. well, it affects my opinion on how close we were as friends. i never asked her to be frank or discuss such a subject, of course, because i would not have known to bring it up. not telling me about something is quite different from telling me something that is misleading to the whole truth of the situation. mr. jenner. in other words, are you seeking to imply that her failure to mention the general walker incident and lee harvey oswald part in it, if he had any part, that that was understandable to you--that would be understandable as of that time, having in mind your relations with her? mrs. paine. no; it is not understandable to me. i feel it is only explained--the only explanation i can find, when i look for one, is that she did not feel terribly close to me, or did not know just what i would do with such information. she may well have suspected that i would feel it necessary to take immediate action, and i would have felt that necessary if i had known this. she may have felt that lee would not make such an attempt again, and that there was therefore no need to bring it up. i don't know whether your accounts of what the fbi has put down of their conversations with me include one meeting with bardwell odum, right after the newspapers had indicated something of a shot at walker, before there was any corroborative details, such as the content of a note. i was very depressed by the feeling that here--not to me, but to someone, this man had shown that he was violent and dangerous, and the information had been so close to me and not available to me--and i deeply regretted that i had had no warning of this quality in him. and i further went on to say that i felt that it was a moral failing on her part not to speak to someone about this, because i thought she would surely realize that this was an irrational and extremely dangerous act on his part--that he needed help and/or confinement. mr. jenner. what is your personal attitude towards the castro regime? mrs. paine. i have very few opinions about it. i suspect that the press is correct, that it is used as a jumping off ground for people, for communist deputies going to central american countries, trying to stir up trouble. that i object to strenuously. that the people of cuba had castro as a leader is not of any particular offense to me. i do think that he has rather more popular support than his predecessor. mr. jenner. batista? mrs. paine. yes--which is not saying a great deal. mr. jenner. well, i think representative ford might have had more in mind as to whether you share or do not share or have an aversion to what you understand to be the castro regime. mrs. paine. i think the regime is clearly dictatorial, that it seeks to perpetuate itself, and to do so at all costs; and that i certainly object to. mr. jenner. now, do you consider the castro regime as you understand it, that it is liberal or reactionary? mrs. paine. i don't know as i can put a term on it. mr. jenner. do you have any thoughts and assumptions on your part as to what lee oswald was doing after marina returned with you from new orleans? you have already testified that you thought from what he said about seeking employment in houston and philadelphia that he was engaged in that immediately following period in attempting to secure employment in houston. mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. is that the extent of your impression as to that period--that is the period from the time you left on the d of september and the time he showed up without advance notice on the th of october? mrs. paine. it was my impression that he had been looking for work. mr. jenner. and you had no other impression? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. during the period that marina lived with you, did you ordinarily arise at an early or a late hour? when did you ordinarily arise? mrs. paine. are you asking did i arise earlier than she? mr. jenner. no. i am asking when you did. then i will ask you when she did. mrs. paine. i usually got up around : or . mr. jenner. when did she arise? mrs. paine. a similar time. when the babies permitted, she would sleep a little later. she changed her schedule to fit ours rather more than her schedule would have been if it had been just the way she had done in her own apartment. mr. jenner. in her own apartment you think she would have arisen later or earlier? mrs. paine. she would have arisen later and let the baby, june, stay up later, and therefore be able to sleep later in the morning. mr. jenner. i see. mrs. paine. but while she was at my home, she endeavored to fit herself into the sleeping schedule of myself and my children. mr. jenner. have you told us about your knowledge of any and all correspondence that she received at your home? mrs. paine. i think i have. the only thing that i recall is that she got a letter from a girl friend, galya. mr. jenner. did she ever show you any correspondence she received? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. this has been covered. i don't know if it has been covered in the thrust that representative ford has in mind. do you believe that marina had any communist sympathies when she reached this country, and if so, what is your belief as to whether she retained them after living in this country? mrs. paine. i do not believe she had communist leanings when she arrived. mr. jenner. and is it your belief that she is of the same viewpoint now? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. have you now told us all of the activities about which you know anything in which lee oswald and you or you and your husband or lee and marina and you and your husband took part? mrs. paine. let's see if i understand you. all the activities in which my husband and/or i were with any of the oswalds? mr. jenner. either of the oswalds, together or separately. mrs. paine. to the best of my recollection, you have a full account. mr. jenner. did you ever attend any meetings together--that is either you and lee on the one hand, or you and marina on the other, or you and marina and lee together? mrs. paine. there is just the one of my husband and lee at the civil liberties union meeting. mr. jenner. have you named all of the friends and associates or even acquaintances that you had in common with the oswalds or either of them? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. did you really have any common interest? mrs. paine. with marina? mr. jenner. well, any common interest with lee--did you have any? mrs. paine. no; not really. mr. jenner. and any activities with him? mrs. paine. car driving teaching. mr. jenner. that's about all? mrs. paine. that's it. mr. jenner. and the same question as to marina. have you told us everything--i will put it this way. have you told us everything about any common or concerted action or interest between yourself on the one hand and marina on the other? mrs. paine. marina and i of course had a great deal of common interest in children. i think she read to me from a book on child care in russian that she had--or perhaps i have not said that. do you recall? mr. jenner. well, i am not too sure. i think you have intimated it. mrs. paine. and we discussed child raising, care, diet, all the things that come up in connection with children. mr. jenner. but you had no common--you had no community activities with either of them, is that correct? mrs. paine. no--that's right. you mean which took us to a group with other people? mr. jenner. other groups, civic activities generally. mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. or women's clubs or meetings of that character. she occasionally accompanied you on your visits to mrs. roberts, i assume. mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. but there was no plan or direction to those activities. mrs. paine. none. mr. jenner. have you told us everything you know about lee's income and sources of funds? mrs. paine. yes; i have. mr. jenner. do you recall an occasion when you had a conversation with marina--it would have to be on the d of november--about the blanket package and the gun in the package? mrs. paine. on the d? mr. jenner. did you have one--i will put it this way. did you have any conversation with her on that subject, other than the one you have related that occurred in the presence of the police officers in your home on the d of november, ? mrs. paine. none that i recall; nor the day following, either. mr. jenner. is that the only time that you ever had a conversation with marina dealing with the presence of a firearm in your home? mrs. paine. that is the only thing i recall. mr. jenner. or lee oswald's ownership of a firearm? mrs. paine. yes; the only time. mr. jenner. or use of it. i take it from the answers you have given to my long line of questioning that you never detected or saw lee oswald doing any dry firing or dry sighting of a rifle in irving, tex. in or about your home or premises. mrs. paine. no; i did not. mr. jenner. that concludes the questions representative ford had in mind. i will look through the tag end of these notes and i think we have reached the end. you have no diary of events during the time of your contact with the oswalds other than the calendar diary which we have now introduced in evidence. mrs. paine. none. mr. jenner. and you never kept any? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. in connection with his seeking work in houston, tex., in the course of that conversation with you girls in new orleans, when he made the statements you have related about seeking employment in houston, was there anything said by him as to having any acquaintances or friends in houston? mrs. paine. yes; i believe i have already answered that--that he said he had a friend in houston, and that i was not sure whether that was so or not. mr. jenner. he did not identify the friend? mrs. paine. no; i was curious, though, about that. mr. jenner. did he say anything about having any connections or friends in philadelphia? mrs. paine. no; he did not. mr. jenner. but he did mention the possibility of seeking employment in philadelphia. mrs. paine. he mentioned philadelphia as a possibility that he might go and look. mr. jenner. do you recall a long-distance call received by marina while she was at your home? mrs. paine. there was a call which i have related from lee to her from new orleans on may th. mr. jenner. but you know of no other? mrs. paine. i cannot think of any other. mr. jenner. did you ever hear anything by way of discussion or otherwise by marina or lee of the possibility of his having been tendered or at least suggested to him a job at trans-texas, as a cargo handler at $ per month? mrs. paine. no; in dallas? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. paine. i do not recall that. $ a month? mr. jenner. yes. this was right at the time that he obtained employment at the texas school book depository. mrs. paine. and he was definitely offered such a job? mr. jenner. well, i won't say it was offered--that he might have been able to secure a job through the texas employment commission as a cargo handler at $ per month. mrs. paine. i do recall some reference of that sort, which fell through--that there was not that possibility. mr. jenner. tell us what you know about that. did you hear of it at the time? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. now, would you please relate that to me? mrs. paine. i recall some reference to---- mr. jenner. how did it come about? mrs. paine. from lee, as i recall. mr. jenner. and was it at the time, or just right---- mrs. paine. it was at the time, while he was yet unemployed. mr. jenner. and about the time he obtained employment at the texas school book depository? mrs. paine. it seemed to me he went into town with some hopes raised by the employment agency--whether a public or private employment agency i don't know--but then reported that the job had been filled and not available to him. mr. jenner. but that was---- mrs. paine. that is my best recollection. mr. jenner. of his report to you and marina? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. but you do recall his discussing it. mrs. paine. i recall something of that nature. i do not recall the job itself. mr. jenner. i hand you a document, mrs. paine, marked ruth paine exhibit , entitled "translation from russian." (the document referred to was marked ruth paine exhibit for identification.) it appears to be a note from you addressed to "dear marina" signed "ruth." having examined that document, is the note of which that purports to be a translation familiar to you? mrs. paine. yes; it is familiar to me. mr. jenner. did you prepare and transmit the original? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. when did you do that? mrs. paine. that was some time after the assassination. this note accompanied a group of letters originally addressed to me, but which carried enclosures for marina which i took to the irving police and they transmitted to the secret service, and thence to marina. mr. jenner. all right. i offer in evidence as ruth paine exhibit the document that has been so marked. would you look at that. having examined that, may i ask you a question or two about it. has my questioning of you this morning and your testimony of today and previously, and your examination of various documents refreshed your recollection as to additional motivation, that is in addition to what you have already given, for your undertaking the study of the russian language? mrs. paine. well, examination of that letter which i completely had forgotten. mr. jenner. having that---- mrs. paine. it sounds like a very valid description---- mr. jenner. having that to refresh your recollection, do you wish to add to your testimony as to your motivation in studying russian? mrs. paine. well, i can explain two phrases i did not understand when you used them without the rest of the paragraph. it is a socially useful interest--and then i go on to say, "by this i mean i get a great deal of excitement out of talking with these young friends," and i mention some. mr. jenner. and this is a document, a letter you wrote your mother, when? mrs. paine. this is written june , , according to the date on it. i enjoyed the contact with these friends, and our common interest in russian exchange. then also the reference to its being an intellectual decision--i am opposing intellectual decision to the initial leading or calling to study the language, which was not intellectual but a felt thing. then the decision to study specifically russian--as it says right here, "the decision to study russian specifically is an intellectual decision" which came after the leading. that is something i thought out, that kind of intellectual--rather than a prompting from within. mr. jenner. and when you use the expression--you quakers use the expression that you have a leading--you mean a prompting from your--inner prompting. mrs. paine. that's correct. mr. jenner. i would like to confirm with you, if i can, mrs. paine--your recollection is that lee oswald had come home on the evening of november , and that it was the following day, the following morning, the th, that you took him, with marina, to the driver's license application bureau. mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. and that it was some other weekend that he did not come on friday, but came on saturday morning. mrs. paine. i would think so. mr. jenner. that that is your present recollection. mrs. paine. yes. i will support it by saying that he used my typewriter before he went to the driver training location. mr. jenner. now, when you say you have a recollection of his having used your typewriter, you mean the evening before? mrs. paine. no, i mean the morning before. but that would have had to be fairly soon after breakfast. mr. jenner. you mean in the morning before you left for the driver's license bureau, he used your typewriter? mrs. paine. it was the morning of the th, before we left for the driver training bureau. and i am just saying that if he had come in on saturday, i doubt it would have been that early. mr. jenner. i see. so that tends to confirm your own recollection that he had come to your home the night before as usual. mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. that he arose in the morning, and used your typewriter, and then you all departed for the driver's license bureau. mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. did you take him to the parking lot for instruction on more than one occasion? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. about how many? mrs. paine. there were at least two. i think probably just two. and add to that one occasion when we practiced only in front of the house, just parking. three lessons altogether. mr. jenner. was there an english-language dictionary on your desk secretary at the time you found what i call the mexico letter? mrs. paine. yes, there was--a pocket dictionary. mr. jenner. was that an english-russian, or just---- mrs. paine. just english. mr. jenner. was that your dictionary or was it his? mrs. paine. it was not mine. mr. jenner. do you know of any reason why--i will restate the question. do you have any inward feeling or any hunch or anything along those lines that robert oswald might have taken a dislike to you or to your husband? mrs. paine. i have no feeling of that sort. mr. jenner. nothing has occurred to lead you to have that feeling? mrs. paine. except your question. mr. jenner. pardon? mrs. paine. except your question. mr. jenner. yes, other than my question. that is the trouble with leading questions. do you recall whether at any time in your home lee oswald had viewed any movies of the assassination of--fictional assassination of a president or anyone holding high public office? mrs. paine. i do not recall. mr. jenner. do you recall at any time during the period he was in your home that you saw such a movie on television? mrs. paine. i know i did not. mr. jenner. you mentioned yesterday, i believe it was, you recalled his looking at--late one evening--at a spy movie on television. mrs. paine. yes. i think german world war ii variety. mr. jenner. it is your recollection that you did not ask mrs. randle to call the texas school book depository? mrs. paine. that is my clear recollection. mr. jenner. there was no refusal on the part of mrs. randle to do so. i am afraid it follows if you did not ask her, there was no refusal. mrs. paine. it certainly does. mr. jenner. i am trying to awaken again your recollection of that incident. mrs. paine. well, there is no recollection whatever. mr. jenner. of that sort of thing having occurred in the course of that discussion. mrs. paine. of that sort of thing. mr. jenner. do you recall whether or not mrs. randle, as a friendly gesture--her suggestions were friendly, were they not, in connection with his securing employment? mrs. paine. oh, yes. mr. jenner. did she mention the manner bakery? mrs. paine. possibly; yes. i do recall saying that lee doesn't drive, making the point that this was a hampering thing for him. and, of course, therefore it made it impossible for him to drive a truck for the manner bakery. mr. jenner. and in that connection, had she mentioned the texas gypsum co.? mrs. paine. i don't recall that. mr. jenner. at least you do recall that it was impractical to consider possible positions which would require him to operate an automobile. mrs. paine. yes. i believe i do recall a reference now to driving a truck, delivery truck. mr. jenner. harkening back to the meeting at mr. glover's apartment or home on the d of february , do you recall whether lee oswald said anything about whether he was a communist? mrs. paine. i don't recall him saying anything of that nature. mr. jenner. did he say anything about any attempt on his part to join the communist party while he was in russia? mrs. paine. no; he did not. i did not listen to everything he said that evening. mr. jenner. do you recall an incident in which there was a telephone call by col. j. d. wilmeth to your home, in which he spoke with marina? mrs. paine. yes; i do. mr. jenner. would you tell us about that? mrs. paine. i would say this was a week or less before the assassination. he called and asked--he called from arlington, tex., which is between fort worth and dallas, and asked if he could come over some time to---- mr. jenner. would that be a nontoll call? mrs. paine. that was a toll call. mr. jenner. all right. mrs. paine. to talk with marina, that he had heard she was living at my house, and was interested in speaking with somebody who spoke natively. mr. jenner. did he speak with you on that occasion? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. you are recounting, then, your conversation with him, and in turn his conversation with her, as she might have reported it? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. have you completed all you wish to say about that incident? mrs. paine. yes. are you going to ask me if he came? mr. jenner. i put the question as to what you wished to say. have you completed your full recollection of the incident? mrs. paine. that is my recollection of the phone call. he then did come. mr. jenner. and when did he come? mrs. paine. my recollection is that he asked to come--that he worked at arlington state college on tuesdays and thursdays; that he called us on tuesday and asked to come thursday, and we said thursday was not the best time, and he--and we agreed upon the following tuesday. my best judgment is that he actually came then on the th of november. mr. jenner. all right. and how long did he stay? mrs. paine. oh, perhaps an hour. and i cannot even recall exactly what time, except i think it was right in the middle of when we should have been making dinner. mr. jenner. did he visit with both you and marina? mrs. paine. yes; he did. mr. jenner. and were arrangements made for his return on another occasion? mrs. paine. i cannot recall that we made a specific date, but we certainly planned to get together again. mr. jenner. and was this strictly a social call? mrs. paine. yes; it was. an interest in the language motivated his coming. he is a teacher of russian at arlington state college. mr. jenner. let's see. lee oswald was not home on that occasion. mrs. paine. no; he was not. mr. jenner. i mean he was not in irving on that occasion. mrs. paine. no; he was not. mr. jenner. mrs. paine, i have only one more question. do you wish to add anything, or has anything occurred to you which you have not up to this moment testified to with respect to the oswald incident and this great tragedy which my questions and the questions of the members of the commission have not heretofore elicited, and which you think might be helpful to the commission in its work? mrs. paine. well, you have not yet asked me if i had seen anything of a note purported to be written by lee at the time of the attempt on walker. and i might just recount for you that, if it is of any importance. mr. jenner. yes; i wish you would--how that occurred. tell me all you know about it--all you knew about it up to and including november . mrs. paine. i knew absolutely nothing about it up to and including november . mr. jenner. is there any explanation or anything that you feel you ought to say or wish to say about that incident? mrs. paine. well, just that i was shown a portion of a note by two secret service men. mr. jenner. this was after november ? mrs. paine. it certainly was. perhaps a week later. i had sent marina one of these small collections of letters, such as i have described, that includes notes to her and donations, and left such with the irving police. and on one occasion left also a couple of books which were hers. i referred to the fact that she read to me from a child care book. one of these was a book from which she had been recently reading to me, and she used it much as i had used benjamin spock's "baby and child care" when my babies were small--that is constant daily reference. and i thought she would want to have it with her. i believe it was probably the next day i got a call from the secret service saying something important had come up in this case, could they come out and see me. i said yes, of course. they arrived. mr. gopadze, of the secret service, who was acting as translator, and i think the other man's name was patterson, and he spoke english only--mr. gopadze showed me a piece of paper with writing on it, a small piece of paper such as might come from a telephone note pad. he asked me not to read it through carefully, but simply to look at it enough to tell whether i could identify the handwriting and whether i had ever seen it before. i said i could not identify the handwriting. i observed that it was written in russian, that the second word was a transliteration from the english word--that it said "this key"--using the word "key" rather than the russian word--and went on to say it was for a post office box. and that is as far as i read. and mr. gopadze indicated that it was his impression that i had sent this note to marina. and this surprised me. and i said---- mr. jenner. that is a masterpiece of understatement, isn't it? mrs. paine. yes; it certainly is. it astounded me. i said that--i repeated that i had not seen it and did not know how i might possibly have sent this to marina oswald. i asked if he thought the note was current, and he did not say. we went on for some time with mr. gopadze--this in russian--saying that "mrs. paine, it would be well for you to be absolutely frank and tell us exactly what happened" and my saying in turn to mr. gopadze, "i am. what more can i do than what i have said." and finally we went over to english and included mr. patterson in the conversation, and he volunteered this note had been in a book. then i realized what must have happened is that i did send marina oswald a book, and described my having sent this to the irving police and the secret service. and that seemed to clear up the mystery for all of us. and they left. then i don't recall whether this first reference to general walker having been shot at was before or after this incident, but i am certain i made no connection between the two. it was not until it was reported by the houston chronicle that there was a note written by lee oswald at the time of the attempt on walker's life, and they also reported some of the content of that note and included a reference to a post office box, that i made a connection to the note that had been shown me by mr. gopadze. i bring this up because i was irritated by mr. john thorne's statement to me that he thought that i was probably the one to have given the houston chronicle information about this note. i was sufficiently irritated that i called the houston chronicle and spoke to the executive editor, asked if he could tell me who had given them this information. he said no, he could not. i said that i was curious, because someone had thought that i had. he said, "we can certainly tell anyone that you did not." but i don't think mr. thorne was interested enough to have made such a call himself. mr. jenner. do you recall doing some shopping on the morning of the th after you had gone to the driver's license bureau and found it closed? mrs. paine. yes, we shopped at a dime store immediately adjacent, or in the same shopping center as the driver's license bureau. mr. jenner. and some few small articles were purchased? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. and you arrived home when--about noon? mrs. paine. for a late lunch, i would say. i might say lee was as gay as i have ever seen him in the car riding back to the house. he sang, he joked, he made puns, or he made up songs mutilating the russian language, which tickled and pained marina, both at once. mr. jenner. what did he do that afternoon, if you recall? mrs. paine. i don't recall. mr. jenner. did he look at television? mrs. paine. my guess is that he certainly looked at television. mr. jenner. did you leave your home late that afternoon? mrs. paine. i went to vote. this would be a trip of perhaps minutes. mr. jenner. and he was at home when you left? and was he at home when you returned? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. now, at any time during that morning drive did you by any chance stop by a car dealers? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. either going to or from the driver's license bureau? mrs. paine. no, we did not stop at a car dealers. mr. jenner. what is your opinion as to whether lee oswald could have been at the lincoln-mercury dealership in downtown dallas on that day? mrs. paine. i think he could not have been. mr. jenner. was he out of your sight other than the period of time it took you to go to the polls to vote that day? mrs. paine. it is entirely possible that i made a short trip to the grocery store in the afternoon. but i would say he was not out of my sight for any length of time. mr. jenner. in any event, you were conscious of his being in your home or within your general presence all day. mrs. paine. the entire day. shall i give what recollections i have for activities of the th? mr. jenner. yes, please. mrs. paine. it is my best recollection that this lesson in parking to which i have referred occurred on the th, late in the afternoon. mr. jenner. that is sunday afternoon? mrs. paine. on sunday afternoon. i would guess that he had watched pro football on the television in the afternoon. it was early evening after supper, and my recollection is that michael paine was also at the home. i cannot recall whether he had had supper with us, but i would guess so. then i asked the two men, lee and michael, to help me in rearranging the furniture in the living room. and as i have already said, in reference to my testimony regarding the note, commission exhibit , the note referring to mexico city--i will add to that testimony here--i remembered suddenly that this note was still on the top of my secretary desk in the living room, preceded the two men into the room, and put it into my desk. this is the folding front, you know. i just opened it, put it in and closed it. and then we moved all the furniture in the room around. mr. jenner. the two men were lee oswald and your husband? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. and on that occasion, you took the note, which is commission exhibit , which i call the mexico note, and you put it inside the secretary. mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and---- mrs. paine. after having left it on my desk for full days, waiting for it to be picked up. mr. jenner. you had left it in the same place it was when you first noticed it? mrs. paine. that's right. mr. jenner. and that was out in the open. mrs. paine. that's right. mr. jenner. have you recounted all that occurs to you as pertinent to that weekend? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. did you have a tape recorder in and about your home during that period? mrs. paine. two of them. mr. jenner. would it have been possible for lee oswald, while at your home, to have made a tape recording? mrs. paine. wait. i take it back. i had one, a small one, which did not work well. my best recollection is that michael's, which would have been the other, was not there at that time. he was using it at his shop. mr. jenner. so yours was not in working condition and his was at his shop. mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. at his quarters? mrs. paine. no; i meant the place of work. mr. jenner. at bell helicopter? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. so that it is your opinion that lee oswald could not have made any tape recording. mrs. paine. that's my opinion. mr. jenner. is it your recollection you were not interviewed by any agent of the fbi on or about october or on or about october , ? mrs. paine. that is my recollection. mr. jenner. if you were interviewed, you are not conscious of it. mrs. paine. i was certainly not conscious of it. mr. jenner. is it your opinion, based on your recollection of all of the association of lee oswald with you and at your home, that it could not have been possible for him to have taken a weapon, such as the rifle involved here, to any range, shooting range, sportsdome, gun range, or otherwise, on any occasion when he was in irving, tex., residing or staying as a guest in your home? mrs. paine. the only time when he was there and i was away long enough for him to have gone somewhere and come back, and i now know that i can recall was monday, the th of november. i have described my presence at the home on the th and th. and to the best of my recollection, there was no long period of time that i was away from the home when he was there. i may also say that there is no way of getting from my home unless you walk or have someone drive you. mr. jenner. all right. mrs. paine, was there an occasion or incident in which the possibility of marina seeking or obtaining employment in philadelphia arose? mrs. paine. when she was with me in may of , we talked briefly about the possibility of her going with me, accompanying me on my vacation to the east--this was before i had plans to--definite plans to teach for the summer. she was interested in finding out what sort of job possibilities there might be for her in new york, philadelphia, or washington, where there were larger speaking russian populations, and where her knowledge of russian might be an advantage rather than a handicap. she was quite excited about this possibility and wrote lee a letter in which she referred to it. after thinking about it, i felt that it was not a good time for her to be applying, since she would be very clearly pregnant when making such an application, and i thought she would be apt to be discouraged. mr. jenner. and you so told her? mrs. paine. and i told her so, after she had written a letter. mr. jenner. and that letter of hers is in evidence? mrs. paine. no; it is not. she only refers to having written this letter. mr. jenner. exhibit ? mrs. paine. that's right. mr. jenner. all right. even i am exhausted of questions, mrs. paine. i want to express to you on the record my personal appreciation of your tremendous patience. some of these inquiries, i know, have been quite detailed. unfortunately we must make this sort of search. you have been very helpful. on behalf of myself and the commission, i express to your our appreciation. mrs. paine. well, i am very glad to be of help. mr. jenner. we have no further questions as of this time. mr. reporter, we will close this particular deposition. mrs. paine, it is customary, and the witness has the right, to insist upon reading and signing a deposition. it is also customary for counsel to inquire whether the witness desires to waive that privilege. and i now put that question to you. mrs. paine. i understand it would be difficult for you to get that typed up for me to read before going back to texas. mr. jenner. it would be impossible to get it typed up for you to read before you go back to texas, because i understand you are going back to texas tomorrow, or monday morning. mrs. paine. monday morning. so realizing--while i would be interested to read it through, and would hope to sometime, i will waive the right to do so. mr. jenner. thank you. testimony of ruth hyde paine resumed the testimony of ruth hyde paine was taken at : p.m., on march , , at west fifth street, irving, tex., home of deponent by mr. albert e. jenner, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. jenner. let the record show that this is a resumption of the deposition of mrs. ruth avery hyde paine, who appeared before the commission last week and whose supplemental deposition i took on saturday. since we are in a different jurisdiction now, mrs. paine, may i swear you? mrs. paine. you may affirm me. mr. jenner. all right. do you affirm that the testimony that you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? mrs. paine. to the very best of my ability, i do so affirm. mr. jenner. present at the taking of this deposition is john joe howlett, h-o-w-l-e-t-t [spelling] of the u.s. secret service. we are at the moment in the dining room-kitchen area of mrs. paine's home; is that correct, mrs. paine? mrs. paine. that's correct. mr. jenner. and mr. howlett and i have measured the rooms in the presence of mrs. paine. the dining room-kitchen area is open. it's full length from wall to wall is feet and inches in length and feet, inches in width. the distance from the west wall of the dining room-kitchen area to the outside wall of the bedroom on the northeast corner is feet, inches. that particular bedroom in the northeast corner is feet by feet, inch. the southeast corner of the house consists of a bedroom directly to the south of the first bedroom i have just described and it is feet, inch by feet, inches. that particular bedroom opens by window, a large picture window onto west fifth street. the northeast bedroom has two windows, one on the north wall and one on the east wall. these are unlike the southeast bedroom in that neither of these windows is a picture window. mrs. paine. the southeast bedroom also has two windows and the picture window, i think, gives a slightly larger impression than i have of it--it's around inches wide. mr. jenner. shall we measure it, then? (at this point counsel jenner and agent howlett took the measurements discussed.) mr. jenner. the picture window facing on fifth street is--why don't you recite it, mr. howlett? agent howlett. three feet, three inches and four feet, eight inches high. mr. jenner. three feet, three inches wide and four feet, eight inches high? agent howlett. right. mrs. paine. that's not very wide is it-- inches? mr. jenner. mrs. paine, would you be good enough to go outside at the curb and stand at the place at which the fbi agent's automobile was on, as i recall your testimony, november , , so that we can observe you through the picture window we have just mentioned and read it in the evidence? mrs. paine. i'll do my best. (at this point the witness, mrs. paine, left the house and proceeded to comply with the request of counsel jenner and counsel jenner stationed himself in the bedroom referred to before the window.) mr. jenner. back on the record. mrs. paine, i have asked you to locate as near as you can, to the best of your recollection, the position of the fbi agent's automobile where he parked on november , , when he made his second visit to you, and have you done so? mrs. paine. to the best of my recollection i have to say to you that i cannot be absolutely certain that the blue oldsmobile was in front of my house on that day. i don't remember for certainty. if my husband's other car was being fixed, it was not in front of the house but that should be easily determined by asking the repair shop. mr. jenner. now, would you afford me your best recollection, however, at the moment? mrs. paine. my best recollection is that it was on the street. you now see mr. howlett's car. mr. jenner. i will describe that and you listen to me as i describe it. i am now in the southeast bedroom of mrs. paine's home, looking out the picture window facing onto fifth avenue. mrs. paine. street. mr. jenner. on fifth street. mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and i see two automobiles; first, there is a large--what is that, an elm or oak? mrs. paine. it is an oak. mr. jenner. an oak tree--i would say about inches through, which is in the center of the lawn in front of the house. we will measure it, john joe, and the lawn in due course, but the secret service automobile is now parked at the curb on the northeast street, which is the curb at the paine home and directly in front of which is the blue and cream-colored automobile. is that a four-door or two-door? mrs. paine. i don't know--i guess it is a two-door. mr. jenner. it is a two-tone, two-colored car, blue body and a cream-colored trim, which extends across the hood. the front bumper of agent howlett's automobile is just about touching the rear bumper of the automobile. the two cars together, or the combined length spans substantially all of the space between the driveway on the left, which is, i take it, the driveway to the roberts' home. mrs. paine. no; they are on the other side of the street. it's a home that's not now used. mr. jenner. the house is not occupied--that home? mrs. paine. it has not been occupied for over a year. mr. jenner. that home that i am talking about is the home to the east, and as the witness has stated, it has not been occupied for a year. it was unoccupied, then, during the time that marina stayed with you last fall? mrs. paine. that's right. mr. jenner. and the front end or front bumper of the blue and cream automobile is just a few feet east of the automobile drive over on the west side of the paine premises? mrs. paine. i would like to put my children to bed now. mr. jenner. could you wait just second? i wish john joe would check me on this standing where i am, looking out this window. it is impossible--at least impossible to see any license plate on either of the two automobiles parked at the curb i have described. agent howlett. yes; that's correct. mr. jenner. and, you are shining your searchlight on both automobiles? agent howlett. i am shining a flashlight on the front and rear of both automobiles and you cannot even see the license plate, much less any of the numbers. mr. jenner. you can't even see whether there are license plates, let alone make out the numbers? agent howlett. that's correct, you can't even see the numbers. mr. jenner. all right, we will suspend for your convenience now. (at this point counsel jenner, agent howlett, and mrs. paine, as well as the court reporter, left the area of the bedroom heretofore mentioned from which window the examination was being made of premises outside the window, mrs. paine proceeding to care for her children and counsel jenner, agent howlett and the court reporter returning to the dining room-kitchen area where the deposition is primarily being conducted. shortly thereafter mrs. paine returned to the area of the taking of the deposition and proceedings of same continued as follows:) mr. jenner. mrs. paine, you were present when i described the view or described my observations looking through the picture window first on fifth street? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and, was i accurate in my description of the lot area and the automobiles parked in front and what could be seen and what could not be seen in the way of a license plate? mrs. paine. yes; you were accurate. mr. jenner. on the th day of november did an agent of the fbi come for a second time to interview you? mrs. paine. i didn't recall the day, but i have been told it was that day--yes. mr. jenner. while you do recall that it was or days after the st of november? mrs. paine. that's correct. mr. jenner. what time of day was it, or night, if it was night? mrs. paine. i'm trying to think what else was going on. mr. jenner. go ahead. mrs. paine. my best estimate--it was afternoon. mr. jenner. i'll ask you this, it was during the daytime? mrs. paine. yes; it was during the day. mr. jenner. what is your recollection as to the state of the weather? mrs. paine. it was a fair day, and i think it was afternoon, but i'm not sure--absolutely certain of that. mr. jenner. by the way, was it agent hosty? mrs. paine. yes; it was. he had someone else with him that time. mr. jenner. and did the other fbi agent come in with agent hosty? mrs. paine. well, just barely across the threshold. mr. jenner. did either of these gentlemen give you the license number of the automobile which they had parked in front of your home? mrs. paine. no; they did not. mr. jenner. did you ascertain that license number? mrs. paine. no; i did not. mr. jenner. did you make any attempt to do so? mrs. paine. no; i made no attempt to. mr. jenner. was marina oswald in your home on that occasion? mrs. paine. she was in my home. mr. jenner. when they arrived, where was she in your home? mrs. paine. when they arrived, she was in the front bedroom. mr. jenner. was anything said during the whole course of their presence and even afterward by her, which indicated or led you to believe or by implication or otherwise, that she had observed the license number on the fbi automobile? mrs. paine. nothing was said that might indicate that. mr. jenner. or any implication or anything from what you might have drawn an inference, that she had paid attention to a license number? mrs. paine. nothing at all. mr. jenner. did a discussion occur during that conference or interview in which agent hosty made reference to the parking of his automobile on the occasion of november when he had interviewed you? mrs. paine. this is entirely possible. i recall distinctly that i noticed that they were parked down the street or he was parked down the street on the first interview, and it seems to me---- mr. jenner. you had noticed that at the time? mrs. paine. i had noticed that. mr. jenner. and how did that come to your attention? mrs. paine. i think mr. hosty may have brought it up, brought it up to his having talked to my neighbor a previous time. he made the point that he tried not to be too obvious or upset the neighbors by their visits. mr. jenner. and having that delicacy in mind, he had parked the car down the street? mrs. paine. the first time. mr. jenner. the neighbor to whom you refer is mrs. roberts? mrs. paine. that's right. mr. jenner. and her home is next door to the west? mrs. paine. that's right-- . mr. jenner. now, we have used the general term "down the street;" which way was "down the street," to the west or to the east? mrs. paine. how did we use the term? mr. jenner. you said he said he parked down the street. mrs. paine. i don't recall exactly whether it was down--my best recollection is that he was parked in front of the house that the ponders used to live in. mr. jenner. the whom? mrs. paine. the ponders. mr. jenner. p-o-n-d-e-r-s [spelling]? mrs. paine. p-o-n-d-e-r-s [spelling]--ponder is the name, but it is the brick house on the southwest corner of fifth street and---- mr. jenner. excuse me, that's east. mrs. paine. the southwest corner of the crossing of fifth street and whatever it is--you know, westbrook. mr. jenner. is that the crossroad? mrs. paine. in other words--yes--it's directly diagonal from the randles. mr. jenner. is it southeast and at a diagonal across the street from your home? mrs. paine. yes; or, it may have been down the street farther the other way, or i may be confused with what mrs. roberts told me about where he parked when he first came to talk with her. mr. jenner. let me ask you: did you see his car, his automobile on that day--november st? mrs. paine. i believe i did--yes. mr. jenner. did you watch him leave the premises and just watch the two men drive away? mrs. paine. there was only one the first time. mr. jenner. all right. mrs. paine. well, i can't recall. but i would think it likely that i did. mr. jenner. where was marina on that occasion? mrs. paine. she was in the living room with me. mr. jenner. was she beside you? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. were you both looking out the window? mrs. paine. to the best i can recall. mr. jenner. and had you so desired, could you have seen the license plate on agent hosty's automobile on that occasion, to wit, november st? mrs. paine. not with - vision. mr. jenner. do you have - vision? mrs. paine. it's - or - --i forget. mr. jenner. do you have an opinion as to whether the license plate could have been seen with - vision? mrs. paine. i don't have an opinion. mr. jenner. did agent hosty pass in front of your house? mrs. paine. i don't recall at all. mr. jenner. now, facing as you are, onto fifth street, do you have that recollection now as to whether the fbi automobile passed when mr. hosty left and drove away, did it pass in front of your house? mrs. paine. my best recollection is that i had already taken my attention elsewhere, that i didn't try to notice, and certainly i did not notice whether he passed in front of the house. mr. jenner. at any rate, you did not look at the license plate? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. and seek to ascertain the number? mrs. paine. no; i did not. mr. jenner. do you know whether marina did? mrs. paine. i don't know. mr. jenner. do you know whether she could have? mrs. paine. that's possible--she might have if one can see that with normal vision. mr. jenner. so that on the november st date, you are unable to fix definitely whether she did or didn't, or could or could not have seen the license plate and the number of agent hosty's automobile? mrs. paine. that's right. mr. jenner. would you give us your best judgment in the premises as to whether she did--you had some feeling of her presence on that day, have you not? mrs. paine. yes; i certainly didn't see her write anything down. mr. jenner. and what was your impression, if you had any? mrs. paine. i have none. mr. jenner. you just weren't thinking of license plates at all? mrs. paine. no; i wasn't. mr. jenner. were you thinking of them on the fifth? mrs. paine. no; i wasn't. mr. jenner. in any event, the automobile of agent hosty was parked, as you say, down the street and some few houses, at least a number of feet away from your home on the first, whereas, he parked it in front of your home as we have now noted on the fifth. mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. i notice you have a bathtub shower? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. was lee oswald in the habit of taking a shower? mrs. paine. he often took a shower when he arrived home from work on friday, when he arrived here from work on a friday afternoon and before dinner. mr. jenner. did he take a shower, to your recollection, in the mornings when he was here? mrs. paine. i don't recall his having done so. mr. jenner. do you have any recollection as to whether he took a shower in any event on the morning of november ? mrs. paine. i have no recollection of him at all on the morning of november d, except an empty coffee cup. mr. jenner. i take it that, and i should say in the presence of yourself and mr. howlett, that the bathroom is located on the north side of the house in between the wall of the northeast bedroom and the back wall of the combination kitchen and dining room area. mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. am i correct? mrs. paine. that's right. mr. jenner. and when a shower is taken and you are in your bedroom where you were as i recall on november in the morning, it makes a noise and it's quite noticeable to you, is it? mrs. paine. if i'm asleep, there are many things that are not noticeable to me. i do leave my room door open. mr. jenner. well, apart from whether you were asleep, i just wanted to get that--whether you could hear it. mrs. paine. i would certainly hear it. mr. jenner. and does it make enough racket or noise so that it might well awaken you if it's turned on? mrs. paine. yes; especially that close to morning. mr. jenner. and you were not awakened this morning by any shower? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. do you have a recollection as to whether you noticed, when you performed your own ablutions that morning as to whether the shower had been employed, that is, was the shower curtain moist or wet? mrs. paine. i made no notice such as that. mr. jenner. is it likely that had the shower been used you would have noticed it? mrs. paine. no; i can't say as it is. mr. jenner. you had, i gather, no sense of his presence that morning and his leavetaking that morning at all until you arose and he was then gone? mrs. paine. that's right. mr. jenner. you heard no moving about on his part prior to your awakening? mrs. paine. no moving about on his part at all when i looked when i awoke. (at this point counsel jenner and agent howlett took other measurements in the hallway of the witness paine.) mr. jenner. mr. howlett and i have measured the bathroom and it is feet wide and feet inches long. the hallway running north and south at the entrance to the bedrooms, using the wall instead of the jamb, feet inches long, and feet inches wide. the living room, which faces on fifth street and is to the east of the garage wall and to the west of the hallway, running across to the bedrooms which we have just measured, and which faces out onto fifth street, is feet wide by feet inches long. now, mrs. paine, i'll stand beside you, if i may, and i am facing toward fifth street, am i not? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and we are sitting in the dining room portion of the combination kitchen-dining room? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. directly in front of us--i am standing right behind you--on the left is a doorway entering into your living room? mrs. paine. that's right. mr. jenner. there is a wall between that wall jamb and another door jamb to the right or west? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and that door opens onto what? mrs. paine. it goes into the garage. mr. jenner. now, john joe, if you will measure the distance between the outer edge of the door jamb of the living room door and the door jamb of the garage door, however, let's get the outside. agent howlett. it would be foot inches from outside jamb to outside jamb. mr. jenner. so that the space west---- mrs. paine. that's east, i'm sorry. mr. jenner. the wall spacing and the two door jambs together, separate the two doors and are of the width which has been recited. now, before i open the door, which you say enters into the garage--by the way, how wide is that? agent howlett. it is a -foot -inch door. mr. jenner. and how high? agent howlett. it is feet - / inches and it would actually be classified as a -foot -inch door. mr. jenner. mrs. paine, is there a light switch on the dining room wall which lights the light in the garage? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. i see a light switch just immediately to the right of the door jamb of the door leading into the garage; what is that switch for? mrs. paine. it lights the light in the dining area. mr. jenner. and on one of the photographs taken by the fbi, that light switch appeared, did it not? mrs. paine. i would expect so. mr. jenner. do you recall that it did? mrs. paine. i don't specifically recall--i recall the shot which included that area. mr. jenner. that light switch, then, john joe, let us locate it. agent howlett. it is feet inches from the floor. mr. jenner. it is feet inches from the floor and how many inches to the center of the light switch? agent howlett. it is actually about - / inches to the center of the light switch. mrs. paine. my best recollection is that i did see that switch in the fbi photograph. mr. jenner. mrs. paine, when we arrived, what was the condition of the garage door as to whether it was opened or closed? that is, the full door facing onto fifth street? mrs. paine. the outside garage door--the large one? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. paine. it is closed and has been since you arrived. mr. jenner. and the door that is leading into the garage? mrs. paine. is likewise closed and has been since you arrived. mr. jenner. none of us has been in there, including yourself, since i arrived? mrs. paine. that's right. mr. jenner. now, i'm going to open the door and observe that first there is a screen door on the other side of the wall, is there not? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. facing the wooden garage door that i have just opened. now, i have stepped into the garage and would you come over here, mrs. paine? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. is there a light switch handy to turn the light on in your garage? mrs. paine. yes; there is. mr. jenner. and would you snap it on? mrs. paine. (the witness complied with the request of counsel jenner and turned on the light.) mr. jenner. and that light switch is immediately to your right as you enter the garage from the dining room area, is it not? mrs. paine. yes; it is. mr. jenner. and, john joe, would you measure its height from the floor? agent howlett. it is also feet inches. mr. jenner. and is set with relation to the doorjamb, how many inches? agent howlett. six and one-half inches. mr. jenner. and that's to the right of the doorjamb as you enter from the dining room area? agent howlett. right. mr. jenner. so, mrs. paine, it is within very easy reach--it's less than a hand's length away, is it not? mrs. paine. that's right. mr. jenner. now, we have entered the garage. let's measure the garage in the presence of mrs. paine, john joe, and i will now take one end to the far end of the garage facing onto fifth street, and place the tape against the inside facing of the garage door opening out onto fifth street. what is the length to the dining room wall? agent howlett. it is feet inches. mr. jenner. now, let's get it across. agent howlett. it is feet inches wide. mr. jenner. now, mrs. paine, i notice that in the northwest corner of your garage there appears to be a small storage room, i would describe it. mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. is that correct? mrs. paine. that's correct. mr. jenner. and that small storage room is completely enclosed except for a small opening which does not have a door or cover; is that correct? mrs. paine. that's right. mr. jenner. and the storeroom is feet inches wide, measuring from east to west; is that correct? mrs. paine. yes. agent howlett. yes. mr. jenner. and it is how many feet and inches deep? agent howlett. three feet one inch deep. mr. jenner. meaning the distance from the back of the dining room area wall and the outside portion facing of the south wall of the storeroom? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and this storeroom, mrs. paine, runs all the way from the floor to the ceiling, does it not, of your garage? mrs. paine. yes; it does. mr. jenner. and i judge--well, john joe, we might as well measure that while we are at it, with the door open, to the floor of the grass to the ceiling? agent howlett. from the ceiling to the floor of the grass is feet inches. mr. jenner. now, we will measure the opening into the storage room. the opening itself is foot inches inside wide, and feet inches tall. mrs. paine, in your testimony last week in referring to the blanket-wrapped package, you located it in two places in your garage, which i will review with you in a moment; could the package at any time have been placed in the storeroom? mrs. paine. yes; i suppose so. mr. jenner. and if placed in the storeroom, it would not have been open to view unless you climbed back in there to see; is that correct? mrs. paine. yes; there is nothing i normally get in the storeroom--well, no; that's not strictly so. i hid birthday presents for--my little girl's birthday party was on the th of november--in there in the storeroom. mr. jenner. all right, that's an interesting development. when you hid the birthday presents of your daughter, anticipating her fourth birthday on the th of november , did you notice at that time the blanket wrapped package in the storeroom? mrs. paine. no; i did not. mr. jenner. and, in secreting those presents would you reasonably, necessarily have noticed that blanket wrapped package in that small storeroom? mrs. paine. i think i would have noticed it. mr. jenner. when did you remove those secreted birthday gifts from that small storeroom? mrs. paine. to the best of my recollection some were removed on friday evening the th, and some on saturday the th. mr. jenner. was the blanket wrapped package which you have described last week, in that storeroom on either of those occasions? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. and would you have noticed the blanket wrapped package in that small storeroom had it been there? mrs. paine. i surely would have. mr. jenner. now, agent howlett has called my attention to the fact that there is an opening in the ceiling of your garage which leads up to, as i see it now, crawl space above the garage which extends, i take it, the length of your house? mrs. paine. that's correct. mr. jenner. and, john joe, what is that-- feet by feet? agent howlett. roughly--yes, sir. mr. jenner. has that crawl space opening been without a cover for some considerable period of time? mrs. paine. i don't recall its ever having had a cover. mr. jenner. and did you have occasion---- mrs. paine. there was a fan in it for a while--is there now? agent howlett. there's an edge of a fan sticking out. mrs. paine. it has been more recently moved over. agent howlett. it's actually foot inches. mr. jenner. rather than feet by feet. was that fan in place in the fall of ? mrs. paine. to the best of my recollection it was--yes. mr. jenner. i take it, however, that that fan is a movable fan? mrs. paine. oh, yes. mr. jenner. which you can push up and slide over easily? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. are you able to do it yourself? mrs. paine. i never have. mr. jenner. so, you don't know its heft or weight? mrs. paine. i can lift it from the floor, i know that about it, but i have never tried to lift it with my arms up. mr. jenner. and is it a fan made for that particular spacing? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. or, is it really a floor fan that you sometimes use in your home itself and then sometimes place over that opening to draw the heat out, i guess it would be, wouldn't it? mrs. paine. it's a portable fan. mr. jenner. it's a portable fan, and is it your recollection that on the morning of the d of november that fan straddled the opening in the ceiling? mrs. paine. i don't recall. mr. jenner. you have no recollection one way or the other? mrs. paine. none. mr. jenner. since it is portable, it might have been moved back and, if moved back, the blanket wrapped package could have been stored up there, correct? mrs. paine. it could have been. mr. jenner. did you enter that crawl space at any time in the fall of ? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. and, in particular, did you examine it on the afternoon of the d or any time on the d of november ? mrs. paine. no; i did not. mr. jenner. when the police came here on the afternoon of november , did they climb up and look in the crawl space above the ceiling of your house? mrs. paine. i did not see anyone do that. mr. jenner. i am only asking while you were present--while you were present, did the police look in the storage room we have now described? mrs. paine. to the best of my recollection they did. mr. jenner. now, the length of the garage extends from the fifth street side back to your dining room area, does it not? mrs. paine. that's right. mr. jenner. and the width of the garage runs from the wall of the living room to the wall of the house on the west? mrs. paine. that's correct. mr. jenner. now, would you please go out in the garage and in our presence put your foot in the spot--and the two places--that you noticed the blanket wrapped package, as you testified last week? mrs. paine. all right. (at this point the witness, mrs. paine, complied with the request of counsel jenner.) the blanket was lying approximately here from about here--in front of the work bench, halfway to the band saw. mr. jenner. will you listen to me please: we are approximately in the center of the lengthwise plane of the garage and there is on the west wall a work bench. on the work bench is a drill, a south bend drill, a heavy industrial type drill, with a number of packages, and then underneath the work bench is a small desk--is that a child's desk? mrs. paine. no; a student desk. mr. jenner. and in the knee hole in the center of that desk on the left and right of which are sets of two drawers is what; what is that? mrs. paine. that's an ice chest. mr. jenner. was that ice chest there on the d of november? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. is the desk underneath the work bench and is the work bench also--are all these things now in the position they were on november d? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and, are they in the position they were substantially from october , , to and including november , ? mrs. paine. they are in the same position. mr. jenner. the work bench i have described is at its top feet inch in length and feet inches wide or deep, extending out from the west wall into the garage. it's a good substantial work bench, though it is piled high with various boxes and cartons. is the top of the work bench in approximately the same condition now as it was on november , , mrs. paine? mrs. paine. a little fuller. mr. jenner. and is it in approximately, in that respect, the condition it was from october , , to and including november , ? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. i will now measure the distance east and west from the outside leading edge of the work bench to the east wall of the garage. agent howlett. it's feet inches. mr. jenner. the south edge of the work bench is feet inches from the inner side of the overhead garage door, which is now in place. there is a band saw to the south of the work bench also against the west wall of the garage. it stands--it looks like a pretty solid piece of equipment and it stands feet inches high from the floor and the band saw, mrs. paine, is a solid piece of equipment--metal, that is, resting on the garage floor itself, is it not? mrs. paine. yes; it is. mr. jenner. and it is, john joe, how wide a space? agent howlett. one foot five inches. mr. jenner. it's a powermatic band saw that has an identification plate "machinery sales" and the like on it. the distance from the south edge of the bench to the north edge of the band saw is what, john joe? agent howlett. two feet eight inches. mr. jenner. would you measure off inches on that--we have taken a piece of corrugated box board, measured off inches in length, and i will ask mrs. paine to take that piece of corrugated box board and place it in the position in which the blanket-wrapped package was. mrs. paine. that's it. (at this point the witness, mrs. paine, complied with the request of counsel jenner.) mr. jenner. now, may i describe for the record, mrs. paine has placed that -inch corrugated box board in the position she recalls it was when you first saw it, mrs. paine? mrs. paine. no; that's the second time--it's where it was on november . mr. jenner. this is where it was on november d and one end is how many inches from the base of the band saw, mr. howlett? agent howlett. it's feet from the base of the band saw. mr. jenner. is that correct, mrs. paine? mrs. paine. as i recall--yes. mr. jenner. and, it extends in a northerly direction inches and ends up how many inches north of the south edge of the work bench, mr. howlett? agent howlett. one foot eight inches. mr. jenner. and mrs. paine has placed that, is that correct, mrs. paine? mrs. paine. yes; i'm not sure but it wasn't somewhat more to the north. my recollection is not that clear. mr. jenner. but have you placed it approximately as you can best recall, and that is all we can ask you to do now? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. how many inches is it out from mr. howlett, the front of the desk underneath the work bench? agent howlett. the center of it is about - / inches. mr. jenner. don't get the center, because the package was wider than that piece is. mrs. paine. i'll place it where--where the outside edge is--where the outside edge of the package was. agent howlett. the inside edge? mr. jenner. which do you say is inside? mrs. paine. let me take more packages--i'm trying to refresh my memory as to where this was. i do recall standing on it, and whether it was when i stood here or here? mr. jenner. when she says, "here," she is standing, are you not, mrs. paine, facing north with your hand on the southeast corner of the work bench? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and you are standing rather near to the work bench? mrs. paine. i'm trying to recall where i saw it on the d, but anyway, that would be the width of the package between those two boards. mr. jenner. what is the distance from the bottom of the desk underneath the work bench to the nearest edge of the package? agent howlett. four and one-half inches. mr. jenner. and the distance from the bottom of the desk to the outside edge, or most easterly edge of the package? agent howlett. one foot two and one-half inches. mr. jenner. now, did i ask you, and i just want to make certain, when was it that you observed the blanket-wrapped package on the floor the second time? mrs. paine. well, i recall the package was on the floor on the d, and that it was not the first time i had seen it there, but i cannot answer just when i first saw it in that position--i don't recall. mr. jenner. your testimony was, as i recall, that to the best of your recollection the blanket-wrapped package occurred in two places in the garage. mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. when you noticed it at any time from the th of october to and including the d of november ? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and you have now located it as where you saw it--it will be better for you to tell us where it was located when you first noticed it. mrs. paine. my best recollection is--i first noticed it somewhere in the vicinity of the rotary saw. mr. jenner. now, we have a rotary saw which is pushed up against the east wall of the garage and is located really, on that wall, but between the south edge of the work bench and the north edge of the band saw; am i correct about that? mrs. paine. yes; that's correct. mr. jenner. and it is a craftsman saw--it is also a substantial piece of equipment. the saw plane or table is how long? agent howlett. three feet four inches. mr. jenner. and how wide? agent howlett. one foot nine and one-half inches. mr. jenner. and that stands how many feet from the wall, mr. howlett? agent howlett. the saw table is feet - / inches. mr. jenner. and the distance from the floor to the top of the saw itself, that is, all of the saw instrument itself? agent howlett. it is feet inches. mr. jenner. and what is the distance of extension of the saw table, measuring from the east wall of the garage to the westerly most portion of the saw table? agent howlett. it is feet - / inches. mr. jenner. have i located that saw, mrs. paine, in your presence so that the locations i have given are as you have observed accurate? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. the south edge of the saw table is how many feet and inches, mr. howlett, from the inside facing of the overhead garage door, which is down in place? agent howlett. it is feet inches. mr. jenner. now, mrs. paine, would you please locate--take the -inch package and relocate it where you first saw it? mrs. paine. i don't think there is any point in my doing that--i can't remember whether it went east or west or north or south. mr. jenner. well, regardless of how it was facing, whether east or west or north or south, where was it when you saw it? mrs. paine. well, i can recall distinctly that the area between the saw table and the two chests of drawers was filled with boxes of belongings of things that belonged to lee and marina oswald. the package was either under the saw table or out in front of those boxes some way. mr. jenner. now, i will locate the things you have described. the saw table, the height of which has been stated into the record, is suspended from the floor by by braces, which angle from the east wall of the garage up to the underside west end of the circular saw table, and except for those two braces running up from the floor and the saw to the underside of the circular saw table, there is nothing underneath there. was that the condition in which that space was when you noticed the package on the floor earlier--the first time? mrs. paine. to the best of my recollection it was for the most part--it was. mr. jenner. the witness has mentioned two--what do you call those? mrs. paine. chest of drawers. mr. jenner. they are located foot inches south of the south edge of the saw table. they are themselves how wide? agent howlett. two feet one inch. mr. jenner. they are feet inch wide and extend out from the joist of the garage wall on the east garage wall how many feet, mr. howlett? agent howlett. two feet five inches. mr. jenner. the south edge of the set of chests, did you say these were? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. the south edge of the set of chest of drawers is feet inch to the inside portion of the overhead garage door, which is in place. now, would you with that description again state where the package was when you first saw it, first was the space you said was filled with the goods and wares of the oswalds located in the space between the south edge of the saw table and the north edge of the chest of drawers? mrs. paine. with some overlapping of the area of the saw table. mr. jenner. with that in mind, tell us where the blanket-wrapped package was. mrs. paine. i do not have a distinct recollection of where it lay on the floor. mr. jenner. locate it the best you can. mrs. paine. to the best of my recollection it was partially under the saw table or out towards the front of their boxes. mr. jenner. did you ever see the blanket-wrapped package upended in your garage? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. i notice a ball of string which i have just taken from a box, which is on the surface of the work bench. mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. you have testified that the blanket-wrapped package was in turn tied or wrapped with string? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. you think perhaps, around in four places? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. was the string of the weight and character of that which i have in my hand, that is, this ball of string? mrs. paine. it could have been that weight or it could have been as heavy as this other short piece that's on the floor. mr. jenner. the short piece which mrs. paine has picked up and has exhibited to me, we will mark "ruth paine exhibit no. ," and we will cut a piece of the other twine or string and mark that as "ruth paine exhibit no. ." (materials referred to marked by the reporter as "ruth paine exhibits nos. and ," for identification.) mr. jenner. for the purpose of the record, mrs. paine, and john joe, exhibit no. is the lighter and thinner of the two pieces of string which the witness has identified, is it not? agent howlett. that is correct. mr. jenner. i will state, and will everybody agree with me or disagree with me, if i misstate the facts that it would be utterly impossible to get an automobile into this garage in the condition that it is now, is that correct? mrs. paine. it would be utterly impossible. mr. jenner. and, is its condition now in that sense substantially the same as it was on october and from thence forward through november , , mrs. paine? mrs. paine. yes; it is. mr. jenner. now, as i understand it, mrs. paine, you, marina, and the policeman came out into this garage on the afternoon of november ? mrs. paine. that's right? mr. jenner. did you lead the procession into the garage, or did marina, or someone with the policeman? mrs. paine. i recall saying that most of the oswalds' things were in the garage, and i don't recall whether it was a policeman or myself who first entered. i would guess it had been myself. mr. jenner. had there been some conversation before you entered the garage on the subject of whether lee oswald had a rifle and was there a rifle located in the home? mrs. paine. there was no such discussion before we entered the garage. mr. jenner. what was the purpose of your entering the garage on that occasion and the circumstance as to why you entered the garage with the police, and i take it marina was with you, was she? mrs. paine. marina followed. they had asked to search--i told them that most of the oswalds' things were in the garage and some were in the room where marina was staying. mr. jenner. now, trying to reconstruct this situation and to stimulate your recollection, would you walk into the garage and tell us as you walk in, what occurred and when the first conversation took place, if any took place, about a weapon in the premises? would you start back here at the garage entrance? (at this point the witness complied with the request of counsel jenner, entering the garage.) mr. jenner. i take it, mrs. paine, you and marina, and how many policemen were there? mrs. paine. two or three. mr. jenner. two or three policemen walked into your garage? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and for what purpose? mrs. paine. to see what was in it. mr. jenner. well, for you to point out to them where the oswald things were in your garage? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and you entered then and walked east toward the overhead garage door? mrs. paine. that's south instead of east. mr. jenner. that's south, i'm sorry; you are right. mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. was that garage door in place on that occasion? mrs. paine. yes; it was. mr. jenner. the four or five of you, depending on how many policemen there were, walked to the place that you have now heretofore described to us as where the oswalds' things were located in the main part, however, the blanket wrapped package was not at that---- mrs. paine [interrupting]. we didn't get as far as the area where most of the oswald things were located. mr. jenner. all right. you got about what--halfway into the garage facing south? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. then, what happened? mrs. paine. then, one of the officers asked me if lee oswald had a rifle or weapon, and i said, "no." mr. jenner. this was in the presence of marina? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and you were then--at that point you were standing where? mrs. paine. i was at that time standing here [indicating]. mr. jenner. and would you remain there--mrs. paine is now standing at the corner of the--southeast corner of the work bench about a foot away from the work bench; is that correct? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. all right. go ahead. mrs. paine. the officer asked me if oswald had a rifle and i answered, "no," to him and he turned to marina who was standing at the---- mr. jenner. now, would you move to where marina was standing? mrs. paine. right here in the middle of this---- mr. jenner. i'll get that out of your way---- mrs. paine. let's just move that across there. she was standing here facing south. mr. jenner. she was facing you? mrs. paine. yes, she was. mr. jenner. and the witness is now about a foot in from the north end of the work bench and to, necessarily, the east work bench. mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. she was standing there facing and looking at you? mrs. paine. yes; she was. mr. jenner. and you in turn--your back was to the overhead garage door, which was in place? mrs. paine. that's right. mr. jenner. and you were facing north? mrs. paine. yes--i translated the question, asking marina if she knew if lee had a rifle, and she said, "yes"--she had seen some time previously--seen a rifle which she knew to be his in this roll, which she indicated the blanket roll. mr. jenner. when she said that, did she point to the blanket roll? mrs. paine. she indicated to me in her language. my best recollection is that she did not point, so that i was the one who knew and then translated. mr. jenner. now, she said she had seen a rifle in the blanket wrapped package? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. which you had already noticed some time prior thereto? mrs. paine. and as she described this, i stepped onto the blanket. mr. jenner. the wrapped package? mrs. paine. yes; and then translated to the police officers what she had said. mr. jenner. and when you stepped on the blanket wrapped package, did you feel anything hard? mrs. paine. it seemed to me there was something hard in it. mr. jenner. at that time when you stepped on it? mrs. paine. at that time. mr. jenner. did it seem like something hard in the sense of a rifle or a tent pole or anything as bulky as that? mrs. paine. i think i would say nothing as irregular as a rifle. mr. jenner. in any event, as i recall your testimony, one of the policemen stooped down and picked up the blanket wrapped package about in its center, having in mind its length? mrs. paine. that's right. mr. jenner. and when he did that, did the blanket remain firm and horizontal? mrs. paine. it wilted. mr. jenner. it drooped? mrs. paine. it folded. mr. jenner. it just folded, and from that you concluded there was nothing in the package? mrs. paine. that's right. mr. jenner. in the blanket? mrs. paine. that's right. mr. jenner. is it your recollection that the four string wrappings were still on the blanket? mrs. paine. that's my recollection. mr. jenner. and you heard no crinkling of paper or otherwise? mrs. paine. no; i didn't. mr. jenner. now, mrs. paine, you testified last week before the commission that you keep a supply of wrapping paper? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. where do you normally keep it? mrs. paine. (at this point the witness, mrs. paine, left the area of the garage and returned to the kitchen-dining room area.) i keep it as i explained at the commission hearings, in the bottom drawer of a large secretary desk in the dining area. mr. jenner. and you have just leaned down and taken a tube of what looks like wrapping paper from that drawer, have you not? mrs. paine. yes; i have. mr. jenner. and, is that the remains of the tube of wrapping paper that you had in your home on november , ? mrs. paine. no, this is a new one, similar to the old one. mr. jenner. did you purchase it at the same place that you purchased the previous wrapping paper? mrs. paine. i purchased the rolls at some dime store. mr. jenner. mr. howlett, would you measure that wrapping paper? agent howlett. it is feet inches. mr. jenner. now, would i have your permission to take about a yard of this? mrs. paine. take all you want. mr. jenner. i would like to take enough of it so i will get a sheet that is longer than it is wide. what did you say it was wide? agent howlett. two feet inches. mr. jenner. all right, would you hold one end of that, mr. howlett, please. we will now measure this. agent howlett. that is feet inch. mr. jenner. and now, mrs. paine, do you have a scissors, and would you please cut this? mrs. paine. yes; i do. (at this point the witness, mrs. paine, cut the paper referred to.) mr. jenner. we will mark the sheet of wrapping paper which we have just cut from a roll of wrapping paper as "ruth paine exhibit no. ." would you mark that, please, miss reporter? (at this point the reporter marked the paper referred to as "ruth paine exhibit no. ," for identification.) mr. jenner. mrs. paine, all i have to say is that this paper is startlingly like the wrapping paper that i exhibited to you in the commission hearing last week. mrs. paine. it is wrapping paper for mailing books and other such articles. mr. jenner. it is a good weight. you have, i notice, now in your hand, some sealing tape or paper sticky tape, am i correct? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. from where did you obtain that? mrs. paine. from the same bottom drawer. mr. jenner. did you have a supply of that sticky tape in your home on november , ? mrs. paine. yes; this is the remainder of that. mr. jenner. this is the remainder of a roll you had at that time? mrs. paine. that's right. mr. jenner. would you cut a slip of that for us? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. off the record. miss reporter, would you mark the strip of sticky tape i now hand you as "ruth paine exhibit no. "? (paper referred to marked by the reporter as "ruth paine exhibit no. ," for identification.) mr. jenner. mrs. paine, you now have that bottom drawer of your desk secretary open, and i see the remains of a ball of string. mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. two balls of string, one dark brown string and one white string? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. as i recall your testimony with respect to the wrappings on this package--the string was white string and not the dark brown string? mrs. paine. that's my recollection. mr. jenner. does your now seeing the remains of the additional string you have uncovered from the bottom drawer of your secretary serve to refresh your recollection, even further, as to whether that was about the weight of the string on the blanket wrapped package? mrs. paine. it looks rather thin to me, rather thinner than the string on the package, sir. mr. jenner. all right. we will take a sample of that, and that will be marked "ruth paine exhibit no. ." (string referred to marked by the reporter as "ruth paine exhibit no. ," for identification.) mr. jenner. you also have something that is really rope in your hand now. did you obtain that from that drawer? mrs. paine. yes; i did. mr. jenner. would you say that was too heavy or heavier? mrs. paine. i would say it is heavier; yes. mr. jenner. all right, we will not bother with that in the record. mrs. paine, you recall your testimony with respect to what i called the mexico note. mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. i forget the commission exhibit number, but that will identify it. it is a note you found one sunday morning. mrs. paine. that's right--having already noticed it but not having read it the previous day. mr. jenner. and, is this the secretary to which you made reference, the desk secretary--the piece of furniture from which you have obtained the wrapping paper, the sticky paper, and the string i latterly described? mrs. paine. no; it is not. mr. jenner. where is that desk secretary located? mrs. paine. that desk secretary is in the living room. mr. jenner. is the desk secretary in the position now as it was on that sunday morning? mrs. paine. no; it is not. mr. jenner. would you locate in your living room where that desk secretary was, if it is not here? mrs. paine. it was in the middle of the space between the--the middle of the north wall of the living room. mr. jenner. now, the north wall of the living room presently has a sofa or a couch? mrs. paine. that's right. mr. jenner. i take it, therefore, that sofa or couch was not in that position? mrs. paine. that sofa has exchanged places with the small desk secretary. mr. jenner. and the desk secretary is now on the east wall of your living room; is that correct? mrs. paine. that's correct. mr. jenner. please tell me where the television set was on the afternoon of the day--on the afternoon of november the d when the police called at your home? mrs. paine. it was then where it is now. mr. jenner. and it is now located against the south wall of the living room between the picture window facing on fifth street and the doorway entering into your home? mrs. paine. that's right. mr. jenner. now, you testified as i recall, that you and marina were sitting on the sofa looking at television. where was the sofa located at that time? mrs. paine. on the d, the sofa was where it is now, as is true of all the other furniture in the room. mr. jenner. so, that, therefore, i conclude that from the time on the sunday morning that you looked at the mexico note and made a copy of it and november , you had rearranged your furniture? mrs. paine. i rearranged it on the evening of the th of november--that same day that i read the note. mr. jenner. that was a sunday? mrs. paine. that was. mr. jenner. and lee oswald and your husband, michael, assisted you? mrs. paine. that's right. mr. jenner. as i recall your testimony was that before they began to move the furniture at your request you saw the mexico note on top of the secretary and you put it in one of the drawers of the secretary? mrs. paine. i opened the flip front and put it in there. mr. jenner. consequently, on the afternoon of november , , when you were looking at television, you and marina were facing out--facing toward fifth street? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. were the drapes on your picture window which i see on the south wall, drawn back? mrs. paine. they were not closed. mr. jenner. they were not closed? mrs. paine. they were covering perhaps a foot of the window on each side. mr. jenner. were you so intent, you and marina, from looking at the television that you did not notice the police come in to your door? mrs. paine. i think we could not have seen them coming to the door. mr. jenner. why not? mrs. paine. we were sitting here. i was in the middle of the sofa and marina was to the west. mr. jenner. she was to your right? mrs. paine. that's right. mr. jenner. and you say you could not have seen them? mrs. paine. well, there were several times--i don't---- mr. jenner. well, at the instant of time they came, had you noticed them coming? mrs. paine. no; i had not. mr. jenner. you say you could not have seen them because, i take it [at this time counsel jenner with the assistance of the witness, mrs. paine, drew the living room drapes so that they no longer covered the living room windows]--because they approached the house from the driveway side, which is on the west? mrs. paine. right, and as i recall, both of the cars that came in were parked to the west of my driveway. mr. jenner. so, they would have come at an angle, which assuming the door was closed---- mrs. paine. as it was. mr. jenner. the door opening onto fifth street? mrs. paine. the door was closed. mr. jenner. may the record show, and i will ask mr. howlett if he agrees, that under those circumstances, with the officers approaching from the west, that the ladies sitting on the sofa or couch could not have seen them as they approached from the west? agent howlett. no. mr. jenner. so, the first time, i gather you were aware that the police had arrived or come, was when the doorbell rang or they knocked on the door? mrs. paine. the bell rang and i was first aware of them when i opened the door. mr. jenner. now, we will get you, odell, to come in here. (at this point the reporter proceeded to the point designated by counsel jenner.) mr. jenner. i will proceed to describe here your lawn and if you, john joe, will come out and check me on it and will you stand in the doorway, mrs. paine, and would you check me, mrs. paine, as i recite these facts? mrs. paine. all right. (at this point the persons heretofore mentioned assumed the places designated by counsel jenner.) mr. jenner. that your home is well set back, we'll measure it in a moment, from the street, and it is a rather generous lawn with some bushes, the bushes are not solid as a screen, but they are up close to your home. the lawn area is entirely open except for the oak tree which i have heretofore described as being as a large generous shade tree about feet in diameter. we will measure the circumference in a moment. john joe, could we measure the distance from the south wall of the home to the sidewalk? agent howlett. there is no sidewalk--there is a curb. mrs. paine. yes; there is. agent howlett. feet. mr. jenner. will you come in, john, and recite in the presence of the reporter what that distance is? the reporter. i have it in the record from his statement-- feet. mr. jenner. there is a roof or canopy over the porch entrance, the depth of which from the south wall to the south edge of the roof area is what, mr. howlett, to the south edge of the roofed area? agent howlett. it would be feet. mr. jenner. and it is how wide from east to west? agent howlett. seven feet three inches. mr. jenner. now, is it not true that except for the porch canopy we have just measured, that the entire front lawn is open? mrs. paine. that is correct. mr. jenner. and unobstructed except for the tree? mrs. paine. that's right. mr. jenner. now, in your testimony you stated that on the late afternoon of november when you came home, you approached your home from what direction? mrs. paine. from the east. mr. jenner. from the east and so you were driving west? mrs. paine. i was. mr. jenner. and is it not true, as i look facing east now, i can see some considerable distance of a good block down the street? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and i am standing at the doorway entrance to your home? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. about where you were when you first noticed to your surprise as i recall your testimony, that lee oswald was on the premises? mrs. paine. to the best of my recollection, i had just entered this block--that's across westbrook. mr. jenner. across the cross street which is to the east of your home, which is named westbrook? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and that's how far? mrs. paine. three houses down. mr. jenner. three homes down, and out on the lawn was marina and june, their child? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. then rachel, i assume, was in her crib or somewhere in the house. mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. but she was not out on the lawn? mrs. paine. she was not out on the lawn. mr. jenner. you pulled up in the driveway? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. now, mrs. paine, off the record, i would like to go into that a little bit. (discussion between counsel jenner and the witness mrs. paine off the record at this point.) mr. jenner. all right. on the record. you came home that evening, you sighted your home and saw lee oswald out on the lawn, the front lawn, late in the afternoon of november , , and you swung--you came to your home, pulled up in your driveway as is your usual custom and parked your car? mrs. paine. that's right. mr. jenner. had lee oswald noticed you then as you pulled in the driveway? mrs. paine. oh, yes. mr. jenner. and did he come over to your automobile? mrs. paine. i don't recall. mr. jenner. did you greet him in any fashion? mrs. paine. my best recollection is i was already out of the automobile when we actually exchanged greetings. mr. jenner. and did you express surprise that he was home that evening? mrs. paine. i did not express it. mr. jenner. did he say anything indicating he knew he was there by surprise or at least unexpectedly? mrs. paine. no; he did not. mr. jenner. did he do so at any time during the course of the evening? mrs. paine. no; he did not. mr. jenner. did marina? mrs. paine. she expressed surprise to me, yes; and apologized. mr. jenner. apology for what? mrs. paine. for his having come without asking if he could. mr. jenner. what was your impression as to whether she was surprised? mrs. paine. my impression is she was surprised. mr. jenner. did she say so? mrs. paine. not specifically. mr. jenner. did she say she had not expected him? mrs. paine. that's the feeling i gathered. mr. jenner. well, from her facial expression, her mannerisms, her attitude--you had the very definite impression that his arrival was unexpected as far as she was concerned? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. as well as yours? mrs. paine. yes, sir. mr. jenner. now, as i recall your testimony, you entered the garage that evening--you don't know how many times--you do have an icebox or deep freeze in the garage, do you not? mrs. paine. it's a deep freeze. mr. jenner. and is it not a fact that the deep freeze is located right up against the wall separating the garage from the dining room portion of the kitchen-dining room area, is that not correct, mrs. paine? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and that deep freeze, john joe, is what in length? agent howlett. three feet four inches. mr. jenner. and that length extends southwesterly from the garage dining room wall toward fifth street; correct? agent howlett. correct. mr. jenner. and the deep freeze is how deep? agent howlett. it is two feet six inches deep. mr. jenner. and the deepness extends from the door jam, west edge of the door jam, westerly; is that correct? agent howlett. yes; to the wall. mr. jenner. and how high is the deep freeze? agent howlett. the deep freeze stands feet inches tall. mr. jenner. and mrs. paine, is that deep freeze the type of deep freeze that you uncover from the top, that is, the lid opens? agent howlett. that's right. mrs. paine. it is known as a chest style. mr. jenner. in preparing dinner, or even after dinner, your present recollection is--since it is so much your habit--you can't remember the number of times--it is your present recollection that in the ordinary course of attending to your home and preparing a meal that evening you would enter the garage at least going into some part of the deep freeze? mrs. paine. i think it highly probable. mr. jenner. did you prepare the meal that evening? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. did you do anything else that evening in the garage? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. what did you do? mrs. paine. i lacquered two large box blocks. mr. jenner. would you obtain, if you can, from the box of blocks which i notice now in your living room, the two blocks you lacquered? mrs. paine. this is one. mr. jenner. you say you lacquered two boxes or two blocks? mrs. paine. it's the same thing, yes. mr. jenner. mrs. paine has produced still another thing, and i take it, mrs. paine, that you meant two boxes? mrs. paine. i considered them blocks, but they do have the shape of a box. they are what i call a large hollow block. mr. jenner. they in turn are processed in building to be solid blocks? mrs. paine. that's all right. i describe them as--they are sets--anything a child wishes to make it into for play. mr. jenner. one of them right now in your living room contains wooden blocks, does it not? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and the other is empty? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. john joe, will you measure that which mrs. paine describes as a block and which i describe as a box? agent howlett. it is / -inch wide by feet long. mr. jenner. how deep? agent howlett. it is - / inches deep, with / inch press plywood on the bottom, makes it a total height of inches. mr. jenner. john joe, is that which mrs. paine calls a block and i call a box, rectangular--it has a bottom, or at least it has a plate on one side and it is open on the top of it--the opposite side--is that not correct? agent howlett. it is open on the top, yes. it is closed on the five sides and open on the top. mr. jenner. mrs. paine, just so we don't have any confusion in the record, is my description of this as being a box a fair description? mrs. paine. i will adopt it for our usage, for usage here. mr. jenner. you are setting apart your sensitivity about blocks here? mrs. paine. that's quite all right--i will call it a box. mr. jenner. and those two boxes or containers, you lacquered these that evening? mrs. paine. that evening. mr. jenner. how long did that take you? mrs. paine. about half an hour. mr. jenner. and where were you working? mrs. paine. i was using the top of the deep freeze as a work space. i had to walk from there to the work bench to get the lacquer and the brush. mr. jenner. which end of the work bench, the south or the north end? mrs. paine. the north end. mr. jenner. now, what time of the evening, and i take it it was the evening, am i correct? mrs. paine. yes, sir; it was. mr. jenner. what time of the evening was it, approximately, when you entered the garage to lacquer the two boxes? mrs. paine. it was o'clock or a little bit after. mr. jenner. were the two boxes inside your home, and did you take them into the garage, or were they in the garage when you prepared to lacquer them? mrs. paine. my best recollection is that one was in the house and one was in the garage. mr. jenner. well, where was the one in the garage located when you went into the garage to lacquer? mrs. paine. i don't recall. mr. jenner. it was not on top of the deep freeze, was it? mrs. paine. no; it's very likely it was in the central area. mr. jenner. somewhere near the blanket wrapped package? mrs. paine. somewhat near the saw. mr. jenner. the circular saw or the band saw? mrs. paine. the circular saw, i think, but i don't recall specifically. mr. jenner. all right. now, when you did open the garage, the entrance to the garage---- mrs. paine. you mean the overhead door? mr. jenner. no; the regular door into the garage. mrs. paine. oh--that--yes, sir. mr. jenner. without offending you, mrs. paine, i assume that that door to the garage is normally--you are careful to keep it closed? mrs. paine. i am, indeed. mr. jenner. to the best of your recollection it was closed on this particular occasion? mrs. paine. yes, it was. mr. jenner. you opened the door, did you? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. what was the first thing that arrested your attention when you opened the door, if anything? mrs. paine. i was arrested by the fact that the light was on. mr. jenner. the light where? mrs. paine. in the garage. mr. jenner. the overhead light? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. that headlight is approximately in the center of the ceiling of the garage, is it not? mrs. paine. yes, i believe it is. agent howlett. it may be slightly to the center. mr. jenner. it is roughly to the center and the socket instrument looks like a porcelain socket that extends out from the ceiling and hangs downwardly, as a matter of fact, perpendicular to the floor or the ceiling; is that not right? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. that bulb that's in there now, mrs. paine, was that bulb in place on the night in question? mrs. paine. yes, i believe so. mr. jenner. and the ceiling fixture is unshaded, is it not? mrs. paine. that's right. mr. jenner. so, that, the bulb itself is bright and glaring? mrs. paine. that's right. mr. jenner. john joe, would you take a look at that bulb and see what watt it is? agent howlett. it is a -watt bulb, i just looked at it. mr. jenner. and it is quite bright, is it not? agent howlett. yes, sir; especially with the white reflection off of the white walls. mr. jenner. oh, yes; this garage is painted white, is it not? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. the garage door is a medium shade of grey, and when i say "garage door" i mean the overhead door, which is now in place, the inside facing, which i see from this doorway? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. you noticed that the light was on? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. why was that something that drew your attention? mrs. paine. i knew that i had not left it on. mr. jenner. had you had any habit in that respect? mrs. paine. it's my habit to turn the light off. mr. jenner. and frugality, if not appearance, had dictated you in that direction, had it? mrs. paine. yes, more appearance than frugality. mr. jenner. and had marina come to be aware of your habit? in that direction, that is, of seeing that the light was off when you weren't using the garage? mrs. paine. i would suppose so. mr. jenner. is that your best present impression, mrs. paine? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. i believe you testified that it was your opinion that at that time that it had not been marina who had left the light on? mrs. paine. that's right--it was definitely not marina at that time. mr. jenner. but it was who--had left the light on? mrs. paine. that lee had left the light on. mr. jenner. from that, you concluded that he had what? mrs. paine. been in the garage. mr. jenner. prior to the time you entered the garage around o'clock that evening. had it come to your attention in any manner or fashion that he had been in the garage earlier in the evening, i mean, apart from this particular circumstance you have now related? mrs. paine. i don't know how long he had been out of it when i went in and found the light on. it is my impression he had been in it some time between the dinner hour and the time i entered. mr. jenner. now, sitting as i am, in the dining room area of your kitchen--dining room space--even if, as you have testified was the fact, that either you alone or you and marina were washing the dishes and cleaning up at least after dinner, it would have been virtually impossible, wouldn't it, for anybody to have entered the garage without your noticing it, that is, entering from the kitchen-dining room area? mrs. paine. i would think so. mr. jenner. and, would that not be especially true if you were in the dining room portion of the kitchen-dining room area? mrs. paine. that would be unquestionably true--if you were in the kitchen-dining area at all. mr. jenner. but you were not, i gather, at all times that evening up to o'clock, in the kitchen-dining room area; is that correct? mrs. paine. i was in the kitchen-dining area part of the time, occasionally, i would say. mr. jenner. were your children retired when you went into the garage, at the time you went into the garage to lacquer your boxes? mrs. paine. yes, they were. mr. jenner. had you put them to bed that evening? mrs. paine. yes, i had spent probably close to an hour in bed preparations. mr. jenner. now, during that period of time, lee oswald could have been in your garage without your knowing it? mrs. paine. i think it's likely--it would have been likely that i would know it then too. mr. jenner. well, how would you have known it if you were in that bedroom which is in the northeast corner, which is as we have measured quite a good distance from the entrance to the garage? how could you necessarily have known it--that's the point i am making. mrs. paine. i could not necessarily have seen him enter. if i was fully in the room, my going to bed activities include being in the bathroom, coming into the kitchen, and going into the living room. mr. jenner. moving in and out? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and i think i asked you during your testimony before the commission--were you conscious during the period up to o'clock that evening that lee oswald had been in the garage? mrs. paine. it is my--i recall the definite feeling that he had been in the garage. i can't recall seeing him go in. mr. jenner. now, the police picked up some books, did they not, and other papers and things of which you were not aware at the time, you weren't present when they did that, is that correct? mrs. paine. most of what they took i did not see. mr. jenner. i direct your attention to pages to , inclusive, of a volume which has a paster on its front cover reading, "affidavits and statements taken in connection with the assassination of the president," which i will state for the record was furnished me by the dallas police this afternoon. pages through are headed, "literature" as having been found by the dallas police either in the home of mrs. paine here in irving, or in lee oswald's quarters on beckley street in dallas. would you please examine that list, mrs. paine, and you will notice each page is headed "name" and then the item is sought to be described, whether a letter, a book, an application, a pamphlet or a booklet, as the case might be. the second column is headed "place found" and underneath that appears either the word "irving" or the word "beckley"? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and there is a third column, headed "microfilm," which indicates that the police has microfilmed each item and they give the microfilm number? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. now, would you go through that list and arrest our attention to any item which had come to your attention prior to november , ? mrs. paine. [examining instruments referred to.] i do not think i see anything that i had seen or have since seen. mr. jenner. you have looked only on page . mrs. paine. yes; i am sorry. mr. jenner. take that card there and go down that way with it so you don't miss anything. mrs. paine. this is mine. mr. jenner. all right. the witness has now pointed at page to what is described as a magazine "free world news." that's your own? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. it is a publication to which you subscribe? mrs. paine. yes; anyway, i receive it. mr. jenner. and "friends" mentioned there is what? mrs. paine. there it refers to quakers. mr. jenner. the quakers of your faith? mrs. paine. i don't know whether that item is one i have seen or not, from the description--it is microfilm . mr. jenner. you can't tell from the description whether that magazine, the cover of which is described, is one you have seen around? mrs. paine. i can't tell whether i've seen it or not. mr. jenner. you don't know whether it's yours or was not yours? mrs. paine. that's right--i can't tell. mr. jenner. have you examined those pages through , inclusive? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and the only item you found which is your property is the one we have picked out--you have picked out? mrs. paine. that's right. mr. jenner. and is it also your testimony that having examined all those items which are listed as having been found by the police in your home in irving, that you don't recall having seen any of those in your home? mrs. paine. i'm quite certain i did not see--well, let's see, any of those with the possible exception of a newspaper from minsk. "magazine wrapper," i don't know whether that's it. mr. jenner. well, you can't tell from that description? mrs. paine. i can't tell from that--perhaps there was no such listing, but that's what i recall having seen. mr. jenner. what do you recall having seen? mrs. paine. a newspaper from minsk, but it doesn't appear to be listed. mr. jenner. yes, it is--just a moment. let's go off the record here for a moment. (discussion between counsel jenner and the witness, mrs. paine, off the record.) mr. jenner. i guess you are right--that was just a wrapper. now, i will ask that at this place in the deposition the reporter copy pages , , , and , to which we have been referring. literature _name_ _place _microfilm found_ no._ application, the militant irving application slip for fpcc beckley application slips for fpcc ( ) irving booklet, "the coming american revolution," irving by james cannon. booklet, "continental congress of solidarity irving with cuba, brazil," by fpcc. booklet, "cuban counter revolutionaries to irving the u.s.," published by fpcc. booklet, dobbs weiss campaign committee, irving university pl., n.y.c., entitled "apamphlar." booklet, "fidel castro denounces bureaucracy irving and sectarianism." book, list of fpcc, n.y.c. irving book, foreign language, pages irving book, foreign language, pages irving booklet, "ideology and revolution," by jean irving paul sarte booklet, list of russian and communist irving literatures publications. booklet, "the mccarran act and the right irving to travel" booklet, "the nation," dated jan. , irving booklet, "the pact of madrid," by the irving committed of democratic spain. book, russian irving books, russian ( ) irving - book, russian language no. irving booklet, "socialist workers party," by irving josepth hanson book, "sofia," dated irving booklet, "speech at the un by fidel castro" irving book, "the spy who loved me," by ian fleming beckley book, "live and let die," by ian fleming beckley book, "a study of u.s.s.r. and communism beckley historical," by keiber and nelson. book, "a study of u.s.s.r. and communism beckley historical" circulars, fpcc, bill jones printing co., beckley new orleans. handbill, fpcc, lee h. oswald, magazine irving st., new orleans. handbill, fpcc, l. h. oswald, magazine beckley st., new orleans, la. handbills, "hands off cuba" ( ), irving join the fpcc handbills, "hands off cuba" ( ), irving join the fpcc, new orleans branch. letter, from james j. forney on letterhead of beckley gus hall, benjamin j. davis, defense comittee, n.y.c., dec , . letter, from farrell dobbs, national beckley secretary of socialist workers party to lee oswald, nov. , . letter, signed "gene," to "dear lee," from beckley jesuit house of studies, mobile, ala., letterhead, aug. , . letter, from jesuit house of studies, mobile, beckley ala., to lee and marie. letter, from peter p. gregory to oswald, beckley re: ability to translate. letter, from arnold johnson, p.o. box , beckley new orleans, to oswald. letter, from arnold johnson, director, beckley information and lecture bureau cp, july , , p.o. box , new orleans, to oswald. letter, from v. t. lee, national director of beckley fpcc, n.y., to oswald, may , . letter, from v. t. lee, national director, beckley fpcc, n.y.c., to oswald, magazine, new orleans. letter, from paul piazza to oswald, on jesuit beckley house of studies, mobile, ala., letterhead. letter, from pioneer publishers, april , irving letter, from joseph tack, socialist worker beckley party, to oswald. letter, from johnny tackett, on fort worth beckley press letterhead, to oswald. letter, from louis weinstock, general manager beckley of the worker, dec. , , to oswald. magazine, "friends word news" irving magazine, "the militant" irving magazine, "the new republic," reprint from irving sept. , . magazine, cover, group of men dressed in irving black standing behind what appears to be a master of ceremonies dressed in white. magazine, wrapper, addressed to lee oswald, irving minsk, russia. newspaper, "the worker" irving newspaper, clipping, re: the president irving newspaper, clipping, new orleans paper. irving newspaper, clipping, fort worth press, irving showing photo of iranian native, mrs. john r. hall. newspaper, clipping (oswald defection and beckley cartoon regarding defectors). newspaper, clipping (times picayune, new beckley orleans, re: oswald's fine for disturbing peace. sent from room , broadway, n.y.c. newspapers ( ), russian language irving newspaper, subscription forms ( ), the irving worker, with return envelopes to publishers news press. pamphlet, "the end of the comintern," by irving james p. cannon. pamphlets, "the crime against cuba," curliss irving lamont pamphlets, "the crime against cuba," by irving curliss lamont pamphlet, "the revolution must be a school irving of unfettered thought," by fidel castro. pamphlet, "the road to socialism," by blas irving rocan pamphlet, russian, bearing no. on cover irving pamphlets, russian irving - pamphlets, no. , russian document irving pamphlet, new york school for marxist study, beckley fall term, . pamphlet, the weekly people entitled irving "automation, a job killer." photos, "visit to u.s.s.r."( ) irving photos, fidel castro ( ) irving photo, fidel castro irving photo, female russian workers in radio irving factory photo, russian workers irving mr. jenner. now, mrs. paine, one of the things we said we might see is a package that was in your garage containing curtain rods. mrs. paine. yes--as you recall. mr. jenner. you said you would leave that package in precisely the place--wherever it was last week when you were in washington, d.c., and have you touched it since you came home? mrs. paine. i have not touched it. mr. jenner. and is it now in the place it was to the best of your recollection on november , ? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. now, would you rise and enter the garage and point out in my presence and in the presence of mr. howlett where that package is? (at this point the persons heretofore mentioned entered the garage as stated by counsel jenner.) mrs. paine. it is on a shelf above the workbench. it extends north of the north edge of the workbench. mr. jenner. is it the thicker of the two packages wrapped in brown wrapping paper, shorter and thicker? mrs. paine. you would do well to look at them both. mr. jenner. well, what i am going to do first--i'm going to hand you a pointer, and would you point to the package that you have in mind? mrs. paine. this, to the best of my recollection, contains venetian blinds. mr. jenner. the witness is now referring to a package which mr. howlett, and i will ask you to measure it in a moment, but which appears to me to be at most about inches long, maybe , and about - / inches high and about - / inches through. while it is still wrapped in place, mr. howlett, would you measure the package and it is a little bit irregular. agent howlett. that is feet inches. mr. jenner. the package is feet inches long and it is resting on a shelf which is apparently a foot down from the ceiling, and the north edge of the package is inches from the outer wall of the storeroom i have described, and mr. howlett has now measured the distance from the shelf on which the package is resting, to the floor, and that is what distance? agent howlett. seven feet and three inches. mr. jenner. now, measure the height of the package. mrs. paine. while you are up there, measure the one behind you. mr. jenner. yes; we will. agent howlett. the height of the package is about seven inches. mr. jenner. and it is how thick through from east to west? agent howlett. seven inches. mr. jenner. all right. now, i'll ask mr. howlett to take the package down, since he is already up there on top of the bench, and we will open it in the presence of mrs. paine and see what it contains. the package has now been taken down from the shelf in our presence and mrs. paine is opening it. mrs. paine, and in your presence, mr. howlett, what does the package contain? mrs. paine. it contains two venetian blinds, both of them are feet inches. mr. jenner. and they are of the metal variety, are they not? mrs. paine. they are. mr. jenner. and those blinds are feet inches wide? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. now, they are wrapped in brown or light-tan wrapping paper? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. did you have a supply of this particular wrapping paper around your home at that time? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. from where did you obtain this wrapping paper? mrs. paine. this must have come around a package or something i had bought. i have never had a supply of this variety. mr. jenner. now, john joe, will you favor mrs. paine by putting her package back the way it was? mrs. paine. yes--for the record. mr. jenner. for the record, when we sought to rewrap the package, it has a paster on the outside of sears, roebuck & co., dallas, no. , and "will call--m. r. paine." mrs. paine has torn from the package some sticky tape. mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. it is wider than the variety we have heretofore identified--is it your recollection that this sticky tape came on this particular package when it was delivered to your home? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and is this paper the paper in which the blinds came in the first instance? mrs. paine. these blinds did not come to me from sears, roebuck, but that--i used to replace them did. now, whether the shades i bought came in this package, i have no idea whatever. mr. jenner. well, is it your recollection that this paper in which the blinds are now wrapped came from another package that was delivered to you and not a part of a general supply of paper which you had in your home? mrs. paine. it was certainly not part of a general supply of paper. mr. jenner. is it your recollection that the sticky tape that appears on this wrapping was affixed to the package which this is? mrs. paine. as you said, yes. mr. jenner. this paper--when delivered to your home, having nothing to do with the curtain rods or the rifle or anything else hereon, is that right? mrs. paine. that's right. mr. jenner. now, we see in back of this package that we have just described a much longer package also wrapped on--in light-tan wrapping paper--at this time a little bit darker, i think, than the package we have just been describing, and mr. howlett has now mounted again the work bench and is measuring that package. that package, mr. howlett, is also on the shelf. agent howlett. the same shelf in behind where the other package was. mr. jenner. and it is how long? agent howlett. three feet nine inches long, as it is folded now. mr. jenner. and in general is it a rectangular package? agent howlett. yes, sir. mr. jenner. but its shape is not as well defined as the shorter package we have already described? agent howlett. no, sir; it seems to be a little bit bigger at the north end. mr. jenner. mrs. paine, before we open it, what is in that package? mrs. paine. my best guess would be that it contains two pull blinds which i did have in the southeast bedroom. mr. jenner. when you say "pull blinds" you mean venetian blinds? mrs. paine. no; i do not. i mean roll-type. mr. jenner. mr. howlett, would you be good enough to take that package down and we will open it in mrs paine's presence here. (at this point agent howlett complied with the request of counsel jenner.) mr. jenner. it contains, does it not, what you call the pull blinds, and which i, in my vernacular call spring window shades. mrs. paine. all, right, that's correct, and these are cut to fit the windows in the southeast bedroom. mr. jenner. mr. howlett, there are two of them, one of which is how wide? agent howlett. two feet six inches. mr. jenner. and the other one is? agent howlett. three feet six inches. mr. jenner. and mr. howlett and mrs. paine, these two spring window-shades are the customary type we see on windows, these, however, are white or cream colored, and are plastic? mrs. paine. that's right. mr. jenner. and they are opaque? mrs. paine. that's right. mr. jenner. neither is metal? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. the spring to which the shade itself--the plastic shade is attached, is wood, inside of which there is the usual window shade spring. mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. the paper in which these are wrapped likewise contains as did the other one an address sticker of sears, roebuck & co., no. , addressed to michael r. paine. mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and so, the wrapping paper in which those two shades are wrapped came from sears, roebuck & co. and not from any roll of paper that you keep in your home? mrs. paine. that's correct. mr. jenner. now, are there any other paper-wrapped packages on that shelf? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. it was your impression as you testified last week that you had some curtain rods on the shelf wrapped in a paper wrapping? mrs. paine. well, i testified that. mr. jenner. that was your impression, was it not? mrs. paine. and as part of the testimony i said they were very light and might not deserve their own wrapping. mr. jenner. you, of course--you did state it was possible they might not be separately wrapped? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. is there another shelf below the shelf on which you found the first two packages? mrs. paine. yes; there is. mr. jenner. and, mr. howlett, that shelf is about how far below the upper one on which we found the two packages? agent howlett. about - / inches. mr. jenner. now, we all see, do we not, peeking up what appears to be a butt end of what we might call a curtain rod, is that correct? mrs. paine. that's correct. mr. jenner. is that correct, mr. howlett? agent howlett. yes, sir; that's correct. mr. jenner. painted or enameled white? agent howlett. yes, sir. mr. jenner. would you reach back there and take out what appears to be a curtain rod, mr. howlett--how many do you have there? agent howlett. there are two curtain rods, one a white and the other a kind of buff color or cream colored. mr. jenner. now, would you please search the rest of that shelf and see if you can find any other curtain rods or anything similar to the curtain rods, and look on the bottom shelves, mr. howlett, will you please? while he is doing that, mrs. paine, i notice there is on your garage floor what looks like a file casing you have for documents similar, at least it seems substantially identical to those that we had in washington last week. mrs. paine. this is a filing case similar, yes, slightly different in color to one that you had in washington. it contains madrigal music. it was on november at the apartment where my husband was living. agent howlett. i have just finished searching both shelves and i don't find any other curtain rods. mr. jenner. mrs. paine, are the curtain rods that mr. howlett has taken down from the lower of the two shelves, the two curtain rods to which you made reference in your testimony before the commission last week? mrs. paine. yes; they are. mr. jenner. and you know of no other curtain rods, do you, in your garage during the fall of ? mrs. paine. no; i do not. mr. jenner. and in particular, no other curtain rods in your garage at any time on the st or d of november ? mrs. paine. none whatsoever. mr. jenner. may we take these curtain rods and mark them as exhibits and we will return them after they have been placed of record? mrs. paine. all right. mr. jenner. miss reporter, the cream colored curtain rod, we will mark ruth paine exhibit and the white one as ruth paine exhibit no. . (the curtain rods referred to were at this time marked by the reporter as ruth paine exhibit nos. and , for identification.) mr. jenner. since we will have the exact physical exhibits we don't have to measure them, but perhaps for somebody who is reading the record, mr. howlett, your suggestion that we measure them is not a bad one. let me describe the configuration of these rods. they are very light weight--what would you say that metal is, mr. howlett, tin--heavy tin? agent howlett. yes, sir. mr. jenner. they are the sliding or extension type, one fitting into the other when closed entirely, measuring from upended tip to upended tip they are---- agent howlett. the white one is feet - / inches. mr. jenner. and the cream colored one measured in the like fashion? agent howlett. it is feet - / inches. mr. jenner. these curtain rods--the ends of each of them are turned. those ends extending are turned up how many inches? agent howlett. about inches measuring from the inside of the curtain rod. mr. jenner. on the cream colored one, and what about the white one? agent howlett. yes; on the cream colored one and the white one measures about - / inches. mr. jenner. now, these curtain rods with the ends turned up form a "u," do they not, a long "u"? agent howlett. yes, sir. mr. jenner. now, mrs. paine, we have only remaining the one other item to which you have called our attention and that is the correspondence between you and marina oswald subsequent to november , . mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. have you been able to assemble that correspondence for me? mrs. paine. i appear only to have the translation. mr. jenner. i beg your pardon? mrs. paine. i appear only to have the translation. mr. jenner. you appear only to have the translation--will you explain that remark? mrs. paine. the correspondence you refer to is all by me, with the exception of one christmas card from marina. mr. jenner. when it is by you, you mean it is correspondence you transmitted to her and therefore you do not have the originals? mrs. paine. i thought i had the rough draft of what i wrote--i appear only to have a translation of that rough draft. i made a translation for several of these--i made a translation at the time and sent them off. mr. jenner. at the time you prepared the originals? mrs. paine. that's right. mr. jenner. may i have the translations? mrs. paine. yes; you may. testimony of agent john joe howlett mr. jenner. while we are doing that, miss oliver, since i have involved agent howlett in this deposition--mr. howlett, would you rise and be sworn and i will ask you some questions in connection with this deposition, and in that regard do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? agent howlett. i do. mr. jenner. state your name, please? agent howlett. john joe howlett. mr. jenner. and you are a member of the secret service of the united states? agent howlett. yes, sir; special agent. mr. jenner. in the dallas office? agent howlett. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and you accompanied miss oliver and myself this evening, brought us out to mrs. paine's home? agent howlett. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and you have been present throughout my examination of mrs. paine and my examination of the premises, and you have assisted me, have you not? agent howlett. yes. mr. jenner. in making measurements and also in recounting the appearance of rooms, front lawn, garage, and otherwise? agent howlett. yes, sir. mr. jenner. in all those measurements that you made and reported to the reporter, were they as accurately made as you could make them under the conditions? agent howlett. yes, sir. mr. jenner. did you report, orally, truthfully, and accurately the various measurements that are now recorded in this record? agent howlett. yes. mr. jenner. and were you present during the time that i also called figures or ordered descriptions? agent howlett. yes. mr. jenner. and were the figures i called and the descriptions i made, to the best of your knowledge, information and belief, accurate? agent howlett. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and made in your presence? agent howlett. yes, sir. mr. jenner. thank you. agent howlett. there is one thing on there--on the window. mr. jenner. which window? agent howlett. the window in the southeast bedroom. mr. jenner. yes--that's marina's bedroom, is it not? mrs. paine. she was staying in there--yes. agent howlett. i believe i previously reported that as feet inches, and i think it should have been feet inches. mr. jenner. high or wide? agent howlett. wide--would you like for me to check it? mr. jenner. yes; you might check it. mrs. paine. it's probably feet inches--it's identical to the shade we have just measured. mr. jenner. off the record. (discussion between counsel jenner, agent howlett, and the witness, mrs. paine.) mr. jenner. back on the record for mrs. paine's testimony. testimony of ruth hyde paine resumed mrs. paine has now produced and has in front of her as she is seated here at the table, some documents--what are they, mrs. paine? mrs. paine. i have here translations of seven of the letters, and they are the seven most recent letters that i have sent to marina oswald. mr. jenner. since november ? mrs. paine. since november . mr. jenner. they consist of one, two, three, four, five, six, seven pages? mrs. paine. each letter is complete on one page. mr. jenner. and i will now mark that seven-page document as "ruth paine exhibit no. ." (instrument marked by the reporter as "ruth paine exhibit no. ," for identification.) mrs. paine. and, i would like to describe what little correspondence between november and the first date here--december . mr. jenner. would you forgive me if i asked you a few more questions about the exhibit first? mrs. paine. oh, yes; i'm sorry. mr. jenner. "ruth paine exhibit " consists of seven pages of translations prepared by you? mrs. paine. that's correct. mr. jenner. of the letters that you prepared, the originals of which you transmitted or delivered? mrs. paine. that's right. mr. jenner. you transmitted by mail or delivered by hand or some other fashion to marina? mrs. paine. well---- mr. jenner. or sought to have delivered to her--should i put it that way? mrs. paine. that's right. mr. jenner. and do you note throughout this material the means or method by which you sought to draw these letters to her attention? mrs. paine. each one says how it was sent--yes. mr. jenner. and when did you make the transcripts that now appear as ruth paine exhibit , by transcript i mean translations. mrs. paine. yes--the first three letters here, i have a note at the top indicating when the translation was made. mr. jenner. when were they made with relation to when the originals were dispatched? mrs. paine. the first three translations were made later. mr. jenner. how much later? mrs. paine. well, depending--the translations were all made on january . the first three letters were written respectively, december , december and january . mr. jenner. and from what did you make the translation? mrs. paine. from my notes in russian of the original letter which i cannot now find. mr. jenner. you prepared a first draft and then after you had prepared the first draft and gone over it to make sure it recited what you wished, you then wrote the final answer? mrs. paine. that's right--in russian. mr. jenner. in russian and dispatched it? mrs. paine. that's right. mr. jenner. and they are pages through , correct? mrs. paine. that's right--the other translations were all made at the time indicated on the page, which was also the time the letter was written and sent. mr. jenner. now, have you in the last day or two at my request reviewed carefully the translations which now compose this ruth paine exhibit ? mrs. paine. yes i have. mr. jenner. and to the best of your knowledge, information and belief, after that check are you now able to say whether those transcriptions are accurate and whether also the statements you make of descriptive character in connection therewith are also accurate and truthful? mrs. paine. i believe them to be fully accurate. mr. jenner. now, you had another sheaf of papers when you produced exhibit --what are those papers? mrs. paine. i have a few scratch notes which tell what correspondence there was between november and the first date of this exhibit, which was december . mr. jenner. refreshing your recollection from those notes, tell me if you can what correspondence there was prior to the first letter, which appears as december , in ruth paine exhibit ? mrs. paine. there were two or three short notes written by myself to marina oswald and sent to her along with a small stack of letters and checks which had come addressed to me, but really for her. i sent these via the irving police to secret service. i have no copies of these, but i have seen one in translation, i believe it to have been the second one that i wrote, among the commission papers that were shown to me in washington. there was a note and christmas card sent to me by marina and postmarked december . then, there was also a note and christmas card sent by me to marina on the same date, december . mr. jenner. did you send that before or after you received her card? mrs. paine. they crossed. mr. jenner. are you able to translate now for the record the wording of the christmas card or message received from marina by you? mrs. paine. i would rather have a few minutes with it before doing it for the record. i have not done it in advance because time didn't serve. i do want here to try to describe what i recall as the content of my note, which i have no copy of that. mr. jenner. notes that are in your hand, are they in russian? mrs. paine. these, no; this is descriptive of what i sent and the situation surrounding the note i sent to her on december , and as i say, i have no copy of that note. i included a christmas greeting from myself and my children and expressed my concern for her and said i didn't want to bother her, but i did want to see her. mr. jenner. to the extent you can recite it literally, do so, please. mrs. paine. i can't--i handed this note to mr. martin in his home. mr. jenner. is this the note you had in mind when you testified last week before the commission that you had gone to his home and delivered something to him? mrs. paine. that's right. mr. jenner. along with some other letters that had come containing contributions from kindhearted americans which had been sent to marina and arrived at your home? mrs. paine. that's right. i talked with mr. martin and after having talked with him i added something to my note, saying that i had talked with him and that it had relieved my mind somewhat about her. i also brought that same day an opened package containing wrapped christmas gifts which had come to my home addressed to me from a lady who had previously written to inquire what kind of gifts might be appropriate for marina's children. when i opened the package, though the outside had been addressed to me, the inside was labeled, "rachel" and "junie", and clearly christmas gifts for marina and the two children. i also brought a small box of christmas cookies for the martin family. mr. jenner. as gifts from you and your children to the martin family? mrs. paine. that's right; that's correct. agent howlett. i remeasured that window at the southeast corner of the house--the first bedroom--the one which marina was in, and that picture window is correctly feet inches wide. mr. jenner. now, we will go off the record. (discussion between counsel jenner and the witness, mrs. paine, off the record.) mr. jenner. back on the record. mrs. paine, you recall that last week in testifying before the commission, you referred to an incident in which you drove into dallas with lee oswald accompanying you, for the purpose of having a key on your typewriter repaired? mrs. paine. that's right. mr. jenner. and what date was that that you drove into dallas? mrs. paine. my recollection is that we drove in on october , monday. mr. jenner. have you, since your return to irving from washington, found something in your home that helps refresh your recollection about that incident? mrs. paine. i looked up the check stubs to see what date i wrote the weaver office machines co. a check to pay for that typewriter key repair. the check was written when we went to pick up the machine. mr. jenner. now, you said "we." did lee oswald accompany you on that occasion as well? mrs. paine. no, he did not; just marina and myself and our children went in, and the check stub is dated october . mr. jenner. and does that refresh your recollection as to the date when you picked up the typewriter? mrs. paine. that is, of course, the date i picked up the typewriter, and it is my best judgment that it was therefore the preceding monday that i took the typewriter in. mr. jenner. and what was the occasion again to--why you had the typewriter repaired as of that time? mrs. paine. the original key was incorrect--i had it replaced. mr. jenner. incorrect in what sense--it had an incorrect russian symbol--russian language symbol? mrs. paine. that's right. mr. jenner. and you wanted to replace it for what reason--did lee oswald desire to use it or were you using it or what were the circumstances? mrs. paine. i was using the typewriter in preparation for teaching russian to one student. mr. jenner. is there anything else about that incident that you would like to add to the record. mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. now, mrs. paine, i can think of no additional questions at the moment. is there anything that has occurred to you in the meantime that is, since you were in washington, to which you would like to draw my attention and the attention of the commission as possibly having a bearing on the commission's investigation, the nature of which you have been heretofore advised? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. there is nothing? mrs. paine. this is rather an aside, i would think. mr. jenner. all right, let's go off the record a minute. (discussion between counsel jenner and the witness, mrs. paine, off the record.) mr. jenner. we go back on the record. in gifts received by you since november , , at your home, that is, gifts to marina, did some of those gifts come in the form of cash as distinguished from check or money orders? mrs. paine. yes, some of them did. i regret that most of those that came as cash came early and i simply sent them on to secret service as cash. after--about the end of i began to wonder, since i had not heard directly from marina, whether she was getting these, and i therefore decided to send any such contributions that came to me as cash on to her as checks drawn on my bank account. mr. jenner. had you talked with john thorne, or jim martin in advance of delivering those checks--"yes" or "no"? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. all right, tell us the circumstances? mrs. paine. i asked john thorne---- mr. jenner. by telephone or direct inquiry face to face? mrs. paine. in person, at his office, whether marina oswald was signing, and by this i meant--endorsing her own checks and his reply to me was that everything she can do herself she is doing. from this i assumed she could sign her name. i left a letter which enclosed such a check written by me to her. mr. jenner. you left with whom? with john thorne or with mr. martin? mrs. paine. it does look as if i had left it--let's see--given to the hand of john thorne. mr. jenner. excuse me, you have now turned to the second page of ruth paine exhibit and you are pointing to a footnote at the bottom of that page, are you not? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and the reference there to this letter is to the letter which appears on that page? mrs. paine. that's right. mr. jenner. and do i take it from the footnote that accompanying that letter transcribed in the second page of ruth paine exhibit , accompanying it was a check? mrs. paine. that's right, enclosed in the stamped and sealed envelope. mr. jenner. and the check is the instrument you now hand me, dated december , , check number in the sum of $ , payable to marina oswald, which we will mark as ruth paine exhibit -a. (exhibit marked by the reporter as ruth paine exhibit no. -a, for identification.) mr. jenner. on the reverse side of that there appears in longhand as an endorsement and the name "marina oswald." do you see it? mrs. paine. i do. mr. jenner. are you familiar with that signature? mrs. paine. i am not. mr. jenner. are you familiar with marina oswald's signature? mrs. paine. i am. mr. jenner. looking at the endorsement on the reverse side of exhibit -a, in your opinion is or is not that marina oswald's signature? mrs. paine. that is not marina oswald's official hand. mr. jenner. did you repeat that process on some subsequent occasions of remitting cash gifts by check? mrs. paine. yes, i did. mr. jenner. and you have now handed me another instrument which purports to be and which is a check. mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. on the southwest bank and trust co., and what is the other document no. -a, this one, which is dated january , , and it is the sum of $ and it is check no. . mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. it is also payable to marina oswald; is that your check? mrs. paine. yes, it is. mr. jenner. we will mark it as ruth paine exhibit no. -b. (instrument referred to marked by the reporter as ruth paine exhibit no. -b, for identification.) mr. jenner. referring to exhibit -a and -b, does your signature appears as the maker of each of those checks? mrs. paine. yes; it does. mr. jenner. and you recall distinctly that you did make them? mrs. paine. yes; i do. mr. jenner. and these are the cancelled checks that are returned to you by your bank, southwest bank & trust co.? mrs. paine. yes, sir. mr. jenner. referring to exhibit no. -a and turning it over, is there an endorsement on the reverse side? mrs. paine. yes; there is. mr. jenner. and do you recognize that endorsement? mrs. paine. yes; i do. mr. jenner. is it in longhand? mrs. paine. yes; it is. mr. jenner. in whose hand? mrs. paine. that is in marina oswald's hand. mr. jenner. and it reads "marina oswald," does it not? mrs. paine. yes, sir. mr. jenner. each of these checks also bears the stamped endorsement "for deposit only, to oswald trust fund," is that right? mrs. paine. that's right--that should be said. mr. jenner. and are these instruments now in the same condition when they were returned to you, by your bank? mrs. paine. yes; they are. mr. jenner. miss reporter, i hand you the check no. dated december , , please mark it ruth paine exhibit no. -a. and mark check no. , dated january , , as ruth paine exhibit no. -b. (instruments marked by the reporter as ruth paine exhibits nos. -a and -b.) mr. jenner. may i have your permission, please mrs. paine, to retain these two exhibits and as soon as i have photostated them with all of the other originals of documents that you produced last week, i want to return them all to you at once. mrs. paine. all right. mr. jenner. anything else, now, that occurs to you? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. anything else that is pertinent which you think might be helpful to the commission in this investigation? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. we have been on and off the record during the course of this session, mrs. paine, in which i have had some conversation with you. is there anything that occurred during those off-the-record sessions which you regard as pertinent which i have not brought out? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. is there anything that occurred in those off-the-record sessions which in your opinion is inconsistent with anything that has been stated and testified in the record by you or stated into the record by mr. howlett or by me? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. off the record. (discussion between counsel jenner and the witness, mrs. paine, off the record.) mr. jenner. back on the record now, please. facing north, in the rear of the paine home, the rear door leading from the kitchen-dining room area out onto the yard in the rear, there is a large pleasant, completely open yard with grass. the plot is surrounded by a cyclone fence feet high with a gate so that children playing, small children playing in the yard are completely protected and prevented from getting out. that yard area, measuring from the north wall of the home to the rear fence is feet, inches and in width, measuring east to west, the yard from cyclone fence to cyclone fence is feet. there is a clothesline that traverses from east to west in the yard and the clothesline itself, the poles, which are parallel to the east-west line of the house and east-west fence in the rear is - / feet south of the rear fence. there are two large shade trees, both oaks, the one at the easterly line near the easterly fence is feet, inches in circumference. there is one almost opposite on the west, which is much smaller, and is about--not quite a foot thick. the tree in the front of the house which we have described earlier has a circumference of feet, inches, and the circumferences we have recited in the record were measured at feet from the ground. is that correct, mr. howlett? agent howlett. it is feet on the tree in the front, feet from the ground. mr. jenner. i see--i recited it inches and that was in error. agent howlett. it should be feet, measured feet from the ground. mr. jenner. mrs. paine, have you translated the note which appears on the inside of the christmas card from marina, about which you have testified this evening? mrs. paine. yes; i have. mr. jenner. it appears on the left inside portion, does it not? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. of the christmas card and having interpreted or translated it would you read the translation into the record? mrs. paine. the translation says: "dear ruth: sends here greetings to you, micheal and the children and wishes for a merry christmas and happy new year. i am very sorry that our friendship ended so unfortunately but it was not my fault. i hope that the new year will bring us all better changes. i wish you health, fortune, happiness and all of the very best. a great big thank you for all the fine things you did for me. sincerely, marina. p.s.--write if you feel like it, please. greetings from little june. i kiss you, marina." mr. jenner. thank you, mrs. paine. now, you have handed me a christmas card, the cover page of which reads, "wishing you the best," and there is an insignia on the front of it. i have already referred to the inside cover page, which you now have interpreted for us, and directing your attention to that writing which appears to be in red ink, are you familiar with the writing? mrs. paine. yes; i am. mr. jenner. whose writing is it? mrs. paine. it is marina oswald's writing. mr. jenner. you also handed me an envelope which is postmarked at dallas on december , , and there appears to be some handwriting on that. are you familiar with that handwriting? mrs. paine. yes; i am. mr. jenner. whose is that? mrs. paine. it is marina oswald's handwriting. mr. jenner. here again as in the case of other envelopes, the envelope itself--everything appearing on the face of the envelope is in english? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. whereas, the note on the inside is in russian? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. and this is as you testified--she was able to write english to the extent of addressing letters, cards, and envelopes? mrs. paine. that's right. mr. jenner. miss reporter, would you now mark the two exhibits i now hand you as ruth paine exhibit nos. , the card, and -a, the envelope? (instruments referred to marked by the reporter as ruth paine exhibit nos. and -a, for identification.) mr. jenner. mrs. paine, is the card in the same condition now as it was except for the reporter's identification, when you received it? mrs. paine. yes; it is. mr. jenner. and was ruth paine exhibit , the card enclosed in the envelope which has been identified as ruth paine exhibit no. -a? mrs. paine. yes; it was so enclosed. mr. jenner. and except for having slit the envelope to remove its contents, is the envelope in the same condition now as it was when you received it? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and may we, as in the case of the other exhibits, retain the original and when i have photostated it we will return them to you? mrs. paine. that is fine. mr. jenner. i offer in evidence all of the exhibits which have been identified this evening. is there anything at all which has occurred to you that you desire to add, mrs. paine? mrs. paine. i can think of nothing else at this point. mr. jenner. i do want to ask you this--while you were translating the christmas card message, mr. howlett and i measured--we went out in your back yard area, which is large and open, and we measured it and i recited the measurements in the record and the location of your large beautiful shade trees. i noted that there traverses from east to west your yard in the rear a clothesline. mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and i measured that as being located at - / feet south of the back porch--of the back fence? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. is that the clothesline to which you made reference when you testified last week in washington as to where marina was on the midafternoon or early afternoon of november when you went out to advise her that you had heard over the radio the name "lee oswald" in connection with events that day? mrs. paine. no; it was not that that i heard. i heard that a shot had been fired from the school book depository building and this is what i told her. mr. jenner. and is that clothesline and those posts which support the clothesline and from which the line is stretched across the yard in the same position now as those posts were on that day? mrs. paine. yes; they are. mr. jenner. and on that occasion? mrs. paine. i can't remember whether as part of my testimony describing the evening of november , i said that marina told me that when i reported to her the situation at the clothesline that the tv had announced that the shots which hit the president were fired from the school book depository. she recalled that to me in the evening and told me when i had told her this, her heart went to the bottom. i don't recall whether i included that, but i remember that during the commission hearings--i have recalled it since. mr. jenner. i direct your attention to page of the document entitled "affidavits and statements taken in connection with the assassination of the president," to which we have heretofore made reference when i asked you to examine a list of documents and books and records and papers and pamphlets. directing your attention to page --is that an affidavit or a signed statement that you furnished the dallas city police? mrs. paine. yes, it is. mr. jenner. and is that the statement to which you had reference in your testimony before the commission that you gave on the evening of november ? mrs. paine. the d, yes. mr. jenner. under examination by an officer of the dallas city police? mrs. paine. that's right. mr. jenner. will you read it through and see if it serves to refresh your recollection, read it to yourself, and see if it serves to refresh your recollection as to anything you might not have included in your testimony last week as to what occurred during the course of the interview of the dallas city police with you? mrs. paine. i don't recall most of that content but that surely was it--i was under a good deal of stress at the time. "affidavit in any fact the state of texas county of dallas before me, patsy collins, a notary public in and for said county, state of texas, on this day personally appeared ruth hyde paine/w/f/ , w. fifth street, irving, texas. who, after being by me duly sworn, on oath deposes and says: i have lived at the above address for about years. my husband, michael and i had been separated for about a year. in the early winter of , i went to a party in dallas because i heard that some people would be there that spoke russian. i was interested in the language. at that party i met lee oswald and his russian wife marina. about a month later i went to visit them on neely street. in may i asked her to stay with me because lee went to new orleans to look for work. about two weeks later i took marina to new orleans to join her husband. around the end of september i stopped by to see them while i was on vacation. i brought marina back with me to irving. he came in weeks, later, but did not stay with his wife and me. marina's husband would come and spend most of the weekends with his wife. through my neighbor, we heard there was an opening at the texas school book depository. lee applied and was accepted. lee did not spend last weekend there. he came in about pm yesterday and spent the night. i was asleep this morning when he left for work. (s) ruth hyde paine." mr. jenner. now, i direct your attention to page . there appears to be a signature of mrs. marina oswald on that page. you are familiar with her signature? mrs. paine. yes, i am. mr. jenner. is that her signature? mrs. paine. yes, that is her signature. mr. jenner. will you read the statement and see if it serves to refresh your recollection or stimulate some other recollection as to what occurred that evening or at any other time, to which you have not already testified. mrs. paine. (read instrument referred to.) mr. jenner. mrs. paine, you have now read what purports to be a statement taken from marina oswald on the night of november at the dallas city police station? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. on that occasion did you interpret or translate for marina oswald? mrs. paine. no; i did not. mr. jenner. were you present when she was examined? mrs. paine. yes; i was. mr. jenner. and now, having examined the statement transcribed on page , to the best of your recollection, to the extent it summarizes what was said, is it accurate? mrs. paine. well, i particularly remember the part of the testimony or the statement, sworn statement, that talks about the rifle, that she had known there had been a rifle in the garage and that it was not there on the d, that she could not positively say it was her husband's rifle when they showed her a rifle at the police station. this is what i particularly remember. mr. jenner. do you recall that she fixed the time when she had seen the blanket prior to november as having been weeks prior thereto? mrs. paine. she was indefinite, more so than the statement here. mr. jenner. the statement reads, "i opened the blanket and saw a rifle in it." mrs. paine. my recollection of that is that she opened the blanket and saw a portion of what she judged to be a rifle, having known already that her husband had one. mr. jenner. did she identify the part she saw as the stock of the rifle? mrs. paine. i don't recall--that was all done by the police. mr. jenner. mrs. paine, is there anything in addition that has occurred to you--however, mr. howlett has called my attention to something we thought we might ask you before we close. directing your attention to the bottom drawer of the secretary in the kitchen-dining area of the house, was lee oswald familiar with the contents of that drawer? mrs. paine. i think it appears in my testimony at washington that to the best of my knowledge neither he nor marina saw me use the contents of that drawer. mr. jenner. did you ever see either of them enter that drawer? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. all right. i think i am finished--is there anything you wish to add? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. it is now minutes after and we arrived here at : this evening. mrs. paine, again i express to you my personal appreciation of the length to which you have gone to be cooperative with me and with the commission and with all of us undertaking this sometimes gruesome work. mrs. paine. well, i am glad to help. mr. jenner. and you have been very helpful. thank you. mrs. paine. thank you. mr. jenner. this deposition will be transcribed. we will have it here in dallas next week when i return. if you wish to read it, you may do so and you may call me at the united states attorney's office and it will be available to you to read. if the other transcript is ready, since i am officially authorized to have the same in my possession, i will do my best to bring one with me so that you may read your testimony of last week as well. mrs. paine. i would be very interested in that, thank you, and i could then sign this deposition. mr. jenner. yes; you could sign this and the deposition i took of you on saturday of last week. mrs. paine. all right. thank you. mr. jenner. thank you again, and that is all. testimony of michael r. paine the testimony of michael r. paine was taken at : p.m., on march , , at maryland avenue ne., washington, d.c., by messrs. wesley j. liebeler and norman redlich, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. liebeler. do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. paine. i do. mr. liebeler. we have asked you to come here so we can take your deposition to find out some of the background information that you have about lee harvey oswald as a result of your knowing him throughout part of , up to the time of the assassination. we particularly want to ask you this afternoon about your knowledge of the possible possession by lee harvey oswald of the weapon that was allegedly used to assassinate the president, or of any other weapon at the time while he had some of his effects stored as we understand it in your garage in texas. i also want to inquire of you this afternoon concerning your knowledge of lee oswald's financial affairs, whether you have lent him any money or whether he ever, he or his wife ever, obtained any money through you or your wife, and we will also ask you about other matters relating to the general subject of the assassination and the subsequent death of lee harvey oswald. i want to go first, mr. paine, to the period september of , but before i do that, will you state your name for the record. mr. paine. michael paine. mr. liebeler. what is your address? mr. paine. west fifth, irving, tex. mr. liebeler. by whom are you employed? mr. paine. bell helicopter. mr. liebeler. where are they located? mr. paine. fort worth, tex. mr. liebeler. did you ever make the acquaintance of lee harvey oswald? mr. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. would you tell us briefly the circumstances under which that occurred? mr. paine. my wife invited lee and his wife over to supper one evening. mr. liebeler. will you tell us approximately when that was? mr. paine. i think it was in april. mr. liebeler. of ? mr. paine. yes; i have depended upon my wife for all the dates. she has kept a calendar. mr. liebeler. did you discuss with your wife the, after the assassination the, approximate time when you first met the oswalds? mr. paine. yes, yes, we did. or at least she had to report that to other people and i was listening in but i have forgotten the dates. mr. liebeler. did your wife meet the oswalds at the same time? mr. paine. no; she met them at a party that was held at a friend's house and we were invited to, both of us were invited to, go meet this couple who were represented as he having been an american who had defected to russia, and came back with a russian wife. i think i was sick or something and for some reason i couldn't go so i didn't meet him at that time. mr. liebeler. can you tell us approximately when that was? mr. paine. it would be much more sensible to get all the exact dates from my wife but i think that was in february. mr. liebeler. ? mr. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. now, after you first met oswald, and we will go into the conversation that you had with him when you met him and after that more in detail to him before the commission, when was the next time that you met him? mr. paine. i don't think i met him again until he joined marina at our house in september or the beginning of october, i guess it was. mr. liebeler. would you tell us briefly the circumstances surrounding the second meeting with oswald? mr. paine. well, ruth had invited marina to come and have her baby early in the summer when she knew that she was pregnant, to come have her baby, if she wished, at our house, where she would have the help of another woman who could speak russian. ruth stopped by from her visit on the east coast, stopped on her way back to texas, stopped in new orleans to see them, and found that lee was out of work again, and picked up marina at that time and brought her back to dallas which was the end of september, and marina then and her child stayed there and had another child, and stayed there until the assassination. and about a week later marina was there for about a week before lee called up, and i guess lee came out. mr. liebeler. were you there when he came out? mr. paine. i don't remember. i would come normally, i was not living at the house at the time, and i would normally appear on, regularly on, fridays, and generally some other day in the week, i think it was a wednesday, tuesday or wednesday, for supper. so i would have seen him if it was a friday but i don't happen to recall the particular occasion. i think perhaps i wasn't there because i recall ruth telling me how glad marina was to see him or hear his voice on the telephone. mr. liebeler. you and your wife were separated at that time? mr. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. can you tell us approximately when you were first separated? mr. paine. oh, we have been living apart about a year, i suppose. mr. liebeler. at that time, you mean in october? mr. paine. it had been a year; yes. mr. liebeler. so it would have been in october of ? mr. paine. yes; i guess it was. mr. liebeler. were you living in grand prairie? mr. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. how often would you visit your wife during the period that you were separated particularly during the period of september-october? mr. paine. well, as i say it was nights a week, evenings a week was a regular thing, and i would frequently come around weekends. the garage had been my shop, with my tools that i occasionally used and i would stop by on weekends, on sunday anyways, friday for sure, sunday accidentally, and generally, i think, on a tuesday or wednesday. mr. liebeler. when you came to the house did you stay there overnight or did you just come---- mr. paine. no; i would just stay for supper in the evening. mr. liebeler. and you were residing entirely, spending your evenings in your own apartment in grand prairie during this period of time? mr. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. do you recall that your wife went on a trip to the eastern part of the united states in the fall of , summer-fall of ? mr. paine. it was mostly the summer. she went about july and she spent a couple of months, the end of july, i think. mr. liebeler. do you know approximately when she got back to irving? mr. paine. well, i think she came by around september is the date, i don't remember whether that was the date she arrived in new orleans or the date she arrived at irving. mr. liebeler. now, after she did return to irving, and as you said brought marina and the child with her, do you recall whether she also brought oswald's personal and household effects? mr. paine. yes; i do remember she asked me to unpack or take some of the heavy things out of the car. i think that was only dufflebags but whatever it was it was so easy, i didn't really notice what it was to take out. mr. liebeler. that was shortly after she returned from her trip? mr. paine. that would suggest either the same day or the next day. mr. liebeler. now---- mr. paine. go ahead. mr. liebeler. go ahead. mr. paine. i was thinking it would be much better to get, if it is important at all, to, she probably remembers these dates exactly and we could judge that i would be there. it happened the th was a friday. if that was the date she got back, then i would know that i arrived the date they came back. mr. liebeler. now, did you ever have occasion to go into the garage toward the end of september after your wife had returned for any reason? mr. paine. yes. as i say that was, i still had a number of things there, and the tools were there. mr. liebeler. and you used the tools from time to time? mr. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. during the time that you used the tools, did you ever see a package wrapped in a blanket lying in the garage? mr. paine. yes; that is one of the clearest things in my mind. i had had to move that. the garage is rather crowded especially with their things in it. it had degenerated from a shop into a storage place and in order to use the tools at all i would have to move things out of the way, and one of the packages was this blanket wrapped with a string and i had had to move it several times. i knew it belonged to the oswalds. i am polite so i don't look into a package or even i wouldn't look into a letter if it were in an envelope which was unsealed. but i picked up this package and the first time i picked it up i thought it was a camping equipment and thought to myself they don't make camping equipment of iron any more, and at another time i think i picked it up at least twice or three times, and one time i had to put it on the floor, and there was a--i was a little ashamed because i didn't know what i was putting on the floor and i was going to get it covered with sawdust but i again supposed that it was camping equipment that wouldn't be injured by it being on the floor. i supposed it was camping equipment because it was wrapped in this greenish rustic blanket and that was the reason i thought it was a rustic thing. i had also going a little further thought what kind of camping equipment has something this way and one going off °, a short stub like that. then there was also a certain wideness at one end and then i thought of a folding tool i had in the army, a folding shovel and i was trying to think how a folding shovel fit with the rest of this because that wasn't quite, the folding shovel was too symmetrical. that was as far as my thinking went on the subject but at one time or another those various thoughts would occur before i got to using the tools myself. mr. liebeler. did you ever think there were tent poles in the package? mr. paine. yes; i supposed they were tent poles. i first thought it was tent poles and then i thought there are not enough poles here, enough to make a tent. i didn't think very elaborately about it but just kind of in the back of my mind before i got on to the next thing i visualized a pipe or possibly two, and with something coming off, that must come off kind of abruptly a few inches at ° angle. i can draw you a picture of the thing as i had it. you know i wasn't thinking of a rifle. definitely that thought never occurred to me. mr. liebeler. would you draw us a picture for it and i hand you a yellow pad and let me get you a pen. would you draw a picture for us of what you visualized to be in the package? mr. paine. also this was--i visualized after i put the package down. i would lift the package up, move it, put the package down and one time i was trying to puzzle how you could make camping equipment out of something--this is only one pipe in the package. that is the only thing. then a little shovel which i am speaking is an army shovel which looks something like so, and it has a folding handle on it. mr. liebeler. and you have drawn on this piece of paper two different pictures, one of which you indicate as the shovel. mr. paine. i was trying to put these in the package to make something that i thought was a pipe about inches long. of course, that actual package as i visualized it--that is the outline, that is how it lay in the package. mr. liebeler. you have drawn a dotted line, outline around his first picture that you drew which you indicated you thought you conceived of as an iron pipe of some sort. mr. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. would you mark this. i hand this to the reporter and ask him to mark this as exhibit . (the drawing was marked "michael paine exhibit no. ".) mr. liebeler. when you moved this package around, did it appear to you that there was more than one object inside of it or did it appear to be a solid piece or just what was your feeling? mr. paine. i didn't think. it remained in the package--nothing jelled. i think i thought about it more than once because my thoughts didn't hold together enough. mr. liebeler. did it rattle at all when you moved it? mr. paine. no; it didn't rattle. mr. liebeler. now---- mr. paine. i kind of rejected the shovel idea because that was not, that was too symmetrical. mr. liebeler. what was too symmetrical? mr. paine. the shovel the shaft and the blade of the shovel are symmetrical, the shaft is on the center line of the shovel and here this wider area had to be offset somehow. mr. liebeler. you said you thought it was about inches long? mr. paine. no; i am just telling you. i picked up a package which i first thought camping equipment, heavy iron pipes, and then i tried, then later, maybe when i had left, i tried to think, well, what kind of camping equipment has that little stub on it that goes off at an angle or asymmetric like that, and the flat end down there and i tried to put a shovel in there to fill out the bag, and with the camping equipment, to the shape of the thing. i never--i didn't put these in words, they were just kind of thoughts in the back part of my mind. i wasn't particularly curious about it. i just had to move this object and i think i have told you about the full extent of my thinking. mr. liebeler. how long would you estimate the package to be? mr. paine. the package was about that long. that is inches long. mr. liebeler. let's get a ruler and have you indicate. would you indicate, mr. paine, on the edge of the desk here approximately how long you think the package was and then i will measure what you have indicated. mr. paine. i guess about that. that is including the blanket. mr. liebeler. the witness has indicated a length of - / inches. mr. paine. you had two twelves. all right. mr. liebeler. now, you say that was including the blanket, what do you mean by that? mr. paine. well, the blanket was wrapped around the end of it. mr. liebeler. was it wrapped tightly? mr. paine. pretty snug. mr. liebeler. when you moved it did you have the impression that there might have been any paper inside of it? mr. paine. no; i would have said no; i didn't have that impression. nothing crinkled, no sound. mr. liebeler. and you moved it several times? mr. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. was there any indication by a crinkling or otherwise that there might be paper wrapped inside the blanket? mr. paine. that is right. mr. liebeler. now, you said before that you had thought that they didn't make camping equipment out of iron anymore. what do you mean by that? mr. paine. well, i had had camping equipment, of course, camping equipment we had was a tent with iron pipes. mr. liebeler. what prompted you to think of that thought in connection with this particular package? mr. paine. i suppose it was the--i had a . when i was a kid. mr. liebeler. a . caliber rifle? mr. paine. yes; i had two of them. i kept that in better condition, i mean, this was a rustic looking blanket, it looked as though it had been kicked around. it was dusty, and it seemed to me it was wrapped with a twine or something, tied up with a twine. so i thought of, it looked to me like the kind of blanket i had used for a bed roll on the ground. i suppose that is the thought that started me thinking in the line of camping equipment. and then i suppose i must have felt, i felt a pipe, at least, and maybe some sense of there being more than one pipe but i drew that picture that i drew, i didn't sense that there being another pipe i didn't put it in because i never did place another pipe around it. mr. liebeler. you never placed another pipe---- mr. paine. i had the idea there might have been more than one pipe here or i didn't know where the other pipe might be. mr. liebeler. at the time you picked it up, at any time that you picked it up, did you have the idea that there might be more than two pipes inside the package. mr. paine. well, i would never have mentioned camping equipment, you see, without, you can't make anything without more than one pipe. mr. liebeler. think of the configuration of the package or of the way it acted when you moved it, was there any indication in that sense that there was more than one pipe inside. mr. paine. no; i think it was a homogenous, that is to say it didn't move one part with respect to another. mr. liebeler. was it tied tightly? mr. paine. it was tied quite firmly. it seemed to me the blanket was wrapped double or something that the blanket itself would have made two pipes trying to hold still in the blanket. mr. liebeler. how wide was the package? mr. paine. well, apparently, it was lopsided because i remember not being able to fit the shovel in it, but if you are to draw that outline or something, i think that would go around the blanket. mr. liebeler. do you want to draw something additional here? mr. paine. it was smaller at this end. it was smaller at this one end and that was generally the end that i carried in my right hand. mr. liebeler. would you mark the area on the drawing that you are indicating, mark it with an "a" on the drawing. and you indicate that it was smaller at the end marked "a" than at the other end or it was not as wide? mr. paine. i can't remember how it was wrapped at this end because i could grab my hand around the paper whereas this end, i think was folded over. mr. liebeler. you say that the blanket, you think the blanket was folded over at the other end opposite from "a"? mr. paine. yes; i don't know, there were two separate different thoughts at the time. mr. liebeler. now you have drawn a solid line completely around the first drawing that you made on no. ? mr. paine. yes; i don't think i made this one, my solid line should be much longer. it should have gone out there. i will scratch it out. mr. liebeler. okay. the witness is scratching out the first line at end "b" and drawing in another line. mr. paine. this is the widest dimension here, and i was indicating, between and inches. mr. liebeler. mark that "c". mr. paine. all right. mr. liebeler. now the witness has stated that the dimension marked "c" on the drawing was approximately or inches. would you mark a "b" at the end opposite from "a" on the drawing so we can keep the record straight as to what we have been talking about? mr. paine. [marking.] mr. liebeler. we have now gotten two dimensions roughly of the package, the length and the height. mr. paine. my hand went around it pretty well, it didn't close around it but it went around it to the grabbing of the fashion where the pipe went actually through my fingers and thumb. mr. liebeler. did your hand actually close around it? mr. paine. it did not close around it. at the other end i grabbed it when i picked it up, grabbing it, i will draw my fingers here. this is the thumb. mr. liebeler. the witness has sketched---- mr. paine. in that fashion there. that was, say, inches thick with the blanket. mr. liebeler. witness has drawn at the end marked "b" his hand indicating how he picked it up and said that at that end it was about inches thick, including the blanket. when you grabbed it at that end could you tell whether the blanket was wrapped tight up around the object that was inside or whether it was just a fold of the blanket at that end? mr. paine. i thought it was, my impression was that it was all tightly wrapped and that the blanket had strings around it--i can't recall exactly but it was tied with strings, i don't remember where the strings were and i thought the fold in the blanket came up along here somewhere. i thought it was wrapped, the blanket was folded over. mr. liebeler. in other words, your testimony is that at end "b"? mr. paine. but my memory there is so feeble, so uncertain. i remember this measurement of the pipe because i pictured that in my mind at the time so i was thinking about that. i was trying to fit the shovel in and i remember saying that is too asymmetric. my impression was i would have said that there would have been a fold over it. i have read since that marina looked in the end of this package and saw the butt end of a rifle. now i didn't remember that it was something easy to look into like that. i though it was well wrapped up. mr. liebeler. in the testimony you have just given you have indicated that the blanket was folded over the end of the object marked "b" on our drawing. would you indicate approximately by a line which i will ask you to mark "d" how far the blanket came up on the object itself, after it was folded over, the "b" end, can you do that for us? mr. paine. this is totally unreliable as a memory. it was only based on an impression that i thought it was well wrapped, in other words, dirt wouldn't be sifting into the inside of the package. i put it under the saw, right below where the saw sifts the sawdust out so i was concerned not getting these things dirty. so i will draw a line here. mr. liebeler. now, in the drawing you have made for us you have indicated this object inside the package, you have drawn an object and a package, and on your drawing the object ends before the end of the package does, the steel pipe that you have drawn. what impression did you have of what was in the rest of the package? mr. paine. i must have drawn my outline incorrectly. the line of this pipe here shown didn't--the package. i must draw another package then. the package must have sloped. mr. liebeler. well, do you remember how it was? mr. paine. no; i don't remember the shape of the package. it was a blanket, i mean it was a--reconstruct the blanket or something but this is not a continuous pipe because it was loose, it was stuck through the outline of the package, then i drew the package wrong then. i didn't think of it all at one time, you know. i just had these individual separate thoughts of trying to fit an object or objects that came to my mind into this package. mr. liebeler. your testimony is then that instead of drawing a new package you think the object you have drawn inside the package should have gone right to the end of the blanket? mr. paine. yes; that inches of pipe would have come close to the edge of the blanket. mr. liebeler. let me show you a---- mr. paine. but here, you see there may have been another pipe alongside of it, i didn't particularly arrange it. mr. liebeler. i show you a blanket which has been previously marked as commission exhibit , and ask you if that is the blanket that you saw in the garage? mr. paine. well, i think it looks cleaner than it was, than it struck me then. and i may have said that it had more colors in it but that is the mood of the colors there. i think i would have--i can't absolutely identify this blanket. but green and brown, it may have also had blue spots in it or something like that. mr. liebeler. would you say that this is not the blanket that was in the garage? take your time and examine it as closely as you want to, do anything you want to with it. mr. paine. i would guess that--it looks a little, in here it looks cleaner than i remember but otherwise it looks--the light isn't very good in there and i always moved it around in the dark, i mean in the night time. i had an impression that it was, it was somewhat more mottling of the colors in it, that is to say, i can't identify this absolutely. it is a very good substitute for it, a good resemblance or good candidate for, my memory of the blanket. mr. liebeler. now, there were lights in the garage, were there not? mr. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. and you would have them on when you were working in there? mr. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. you said at one point you stored the blanket under your saw? mr. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. you had lights near your saw, didn't you? mr. paine. it is very dark there. there is a light on the saw but that shines on the table. mr. liebeler. there is no light directly over the saw? mr. paine. no; there is one light in the garage out in the middle of the room. mr. liebeler. would you say that at any time that you moved the blanket around in the garage that you would have had enough light to determine the colors of the blanket? mr. paine. the green and the brown, those colors were in that blanket. i had thought there was, it was dirtier, and i would have put blue spots with it, something like that to make it fully come up to the impression i had of the blanket. mr. liebeler. and those blue spots would have been a part of the pattern of the blanket? mr. paine. yes; sir. mr. liebeler. do you remember whether the design of this blanket, commission exhibit , is approximately the same as the design on the blanket which you saw in your garage or was it different? mr. paine. i don't remember the design of the blanket i saw in the garage. i think somewhat, i didn't, if i had been the least bit curious i could have at least felt of this blanket but i was aware of personal privacy, so i don't investigate something. now what comes to my hand from touching the thing unavoidably i am free to think about, but i think i was aware of not looking through his belongings, the moral dictate. i know i was aware of that, i remember. i remember that feeling. mr. liebeler. what about the texture of this blanket, does it seem like the blanket? mr. paine. yes; that is a good---- mr. liebeler. it is similar? mr. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. this blanket we have here is sewn around the edges with brown thread, is it not? mr. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. around some of the edges at any rate? mr. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. do you recall seeing anything like that on the blanket that was in the garage? mr. paine. no; i don't know, but i didn't look at it that closely. mr. liebeler. now, a part of that exhibit is a piece of string. when i unfolded the blanket, commission exhibit , a piece of string was found to be present, and i would like to ask the reporter to mark it as the next exhibit on this deposition. (the string referred to was marked michael paine exhibit no. for identification.) mr. liebeler. i ask you, mr. paine, whether that piece of string which has been marked as exhibit on this deposition is similar to or different from the string that was used to tie this package up when you saw it in the garage, if you remember? mr. paine. i don't remember exactly. i think this is a very good candidate again. i remember thinking it was wrapped in a twine, by which i meant it was not wrapped in a cotton, tight wound expensive cotton, string. i didn't think it was wrapped, didn't have in mind the manila type or sisal type. this is the right strength. i can't actually remember whether it was or not. mr. liebeler. it appears to be similar? mr. paine. that is about as good as could come to my memory. mr. liebeler. was there just one string wrapped on the blanket? mr. paine. no; i think it was wrapped at both ends. mr. liebeler. with two strings? mr. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. well now this blanket has a pin in one end. i call your attention to that, the blanket which is commission exhibit . did you notice that pin? mr. paine. no; i don't think so. mr. liebeler. present in the blanket at the time it was in your garage? mr. paine. no; i don't think i do. mr. liebeler. i am going to lay the blanket out here on the conference table, and i am going to produce commission exhibit which is the rifle that was found in the texas school book depository building on november , , and i will ask you if you can construct out of these materials that we have here this rifle, and the blanket and the string something that resembles or duplicates the package that you saw in your garage? mr. paine. it seemed to me this end up here was not as bulky as the whole---- mr. redlich. by "this end" what do you mean? mr. paine. "a", i have drawn as "a", was not as bulky as if i had wrapped it and pulled the blanket over. mr. liebeler. you are having difficulty in making it as small as when you remember it in the garage? mr. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. we want you just to continue to work with it and take your time because we want you to be able to satisfy yourself to the fullest extent possible, on this question, one way or the other. mr. paine. it is getting fairly close but i don't know what he did with this end. this way of wrapping it seems to combine the functions. i also had a notion that it was somehow folded over but it seems too thick to do it that way. mr. liebeler. now, you have wrapped the rifle in the blanket. i will ask you if this appears to be, this wrapped package appears to be similar to the one you saw in your garage? mr. paine. i should say this end was a little bit too big here and it is not quite big enough here. mr. liebeler. when you say this end, you are referring to the end marked "b" on the drawing, which in the package is the end, the butt end of the rifle, isn't that right? mr. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. you say that end is too thick. mr. paine. as i have it wrapped. mr. liebeler. yes; and you say in the center of the package in which we have the rifle wrapped you say that is not thick enough. but by thick enough do you mean the width or the actual thickness of the package? mr. paine. i thought of the package pretty much as all of the same thickness, calling the width from type--calling the rifle and the scope of the rifle the width. mr. liebeler. the width? mr. paine. the width across the bolt, the direction of the bolt as the thickness. so i thought of it as a more or less constant thickness of the package and not quite so--i would have to wrap it in some manner to move some of this bulk up into here, but i don't want to do it so much that i can't grab that feel of pipe. that feels, it is quite a lot like it and there could almost have been two pipes there. mr. liebeler. when you say it is quite a lot like it you grasped the "a" end of the rifle or the muzzle of the rifle, is that correct? mr. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. are we saying now that its thickness is not as you remember the package in your garage or the same width? mr. paine. well, most likely this end down here is perhaps, the butt end of the rifle. mr. liebeler. the "b" end? mr. paine. as i have it wrapped is a little bit too full. mr. liebeler. and you think that appears to be thicker---- mr. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. than the package that was in your garage? mr. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. and as far as the middle is concerned, you say that is what, not as thick nor not as wide? mr. paine. yes; somehow it should be a little wider, or a little fuller. mr. liebeler. it was a package which wasn't quite so tapering? mr. paine. quite so tapered. mr. liebeler. is that approximately the length of the package that you remember in your garage? mr. paine. yes; i think that is good. i grabbed it in some way or another, i don't know what he did with this end. mr. liebeler. referring to the "a"? mr. paine. there was a string, there were two strings on it. mr. liebeler. when you estimated the length of the package before, would you have estimated it with the flap of the blanket that is now on the "a" end folded over or extended a little bit as it happens to be in this particular package? mr. paine. i don't think it was--i think the package is still all right if you fold it over, and i would not, the length i was estimating was the kind of length that i would grab there. mr. liebeler. so you think that the length would be more appropriate if you folded this flap over here at "a"? mr. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. would you measure the length of that package and tell us what it is? mr. paine. that is inches. mr. liebeler. now, after going through the process that we have gone through here, of trying to wrap this rifle in this blanket, do you think that the package that you saw in your garage could have been a package containing a rifle similar to the one we have here? mr. paine. yes; i think so. this has the right weight and solidness. mr. liebeler. what did you estimate, did you ever estimate, the weight of that package? mr. paine. no; i don't think i did. mr. liebeler. did you ever tell the fbi approximately how much you thought it weighed? mr. paine. oh, i may have said or pounds. but that was all after the fact. i mean i didn't do it at the time. mr. liebeler. did you ever discuss with the fbi the question of whether or not the object in the package that you saw, let's assume for the moment that it was a rifle, did you ever discuss with the fbi whether the rifle could have had a telescopic sight mounted on it or not? mr. paine. i don't remember whether i discussed that with the fbi. i haven't thought much about it. i didn't feel in the area of the package where the sight is. in my memory of the tubes, i did picture more than one tube. mr. liebeler. you did picture more than one tube---- mr. paine. i didn't picture it anywhere. i assumed there was going to be--there was more than one tube. i hadn't placed it in any picture therefore that it was---- mr. liebeler. when you say---- mr. paine. i think i assumed that, i think, because this line along the top of the package was not straight enough to be the tube i have drawn there. i should say, in other words, either the bulk of the package as well as the out in the middle or there could have been a sight there. mr. liebeler. did the fbi or any other investigatory agency of the government ever show you a picture of the rifle that was supposed to have been used to assassinate the president? mr. paine. they asked me at first, the first night of the assassination if i could locate, identify the place where lee was standing when he was holding this rifle and some, the picture on the cover of life. mr. liebeler. were you able to? mr. paine. i identified the place by the fine clapboard structure of the house. mr. liebeler. by the what? mr. paine. by the small clapboard structure, the house has an unusually small clapboard. mr. liebeler. what did you identify the place as being? mr. paine. the neely street address. he didn't drive a car, so to have them over for dinner i had to go over and pick them up. mr. liebeler. did you ever tell the fbi that at first you felt if the object was a gun in the package it did not have a scope on it, but after seeing pictures of the gun and noting the small size of the scope on the weapon used to assassinate the president that the object you lifted could have been a rifle with the scope mounted on it? mr. paine. i don't remember saying that; no. mr. liebeler. do you remember being interviewed by fbi agents odum and peggs on november , ? mr. paine. well, of course, i have seen bob odum frequently. peggs is an unfamiliar name. it doesn't mean he couldn't have been there. that night i mostly went into the police station, spent much of it at the police station. mr. liebeler. on november ? mr. paine. is that a sunday night or monday? mr. liebeler. sunday, the th would be a sunday. mr. paine. i am too confused. maybe it was on the next night that i spent at the police station. mr. liebeler. well, let's go back and tell us about as best as you can recall how many times did the fbi interview you starting with the day of the assassination, the d of november. did the fbi interview you on that day? mr. paine. there was someone at the police station, first the police took us to the station and asked us questions and we filled out an affidavit right in there. mr. liebeler. that is the dallas police station? mr. paine. the dallas police, and after they were finished someone from the fbi, i believe, asked me some questions. it was almost as though he had no--by leave of the police that he could do this. mr. liebeler. do you remember the name of that agent? mr. paine. now, i don't believe i met, i was introduced to, odum prior to the d. i do not remember that man, and it is possible that--i don't think it was odum, but i wouldn't recall that out and i do not remember the name of that man. i don't know what he looks like. mr. liebeler. were you interviewed by the fbi on saturday, november ? mr. paine. i am not going to be able to remember when i was interviewed without being able to have something to hang it on. there were news reporters. first the news reporters were more in evidence, and then the police came out again, and both of them stick in my mind more because they are more objectionable. i mean there is more---- mr. liebeler. would it refresh your recollection if i mentioned the name of richard e. harrison as an fbi agent who interviewed you on november , , at the dallas police station? mr. paine. no. i don't remember the name. mr. liebeler. reconstruct for us the events of saturday, november as best you can. and perhaps i can help you if i ask you first, did you stay in your apartment in grand prairie the night of the assassination, the night of the d? mr. paine. no, i don't think so. no, we had a late supper there. life reporters were there, and---- mr. liebeler. at irving? mr. paine. at irving, and then they came again early next morning and i was there with the family in the morning so i must have been there at night. mr. liebeler. and the life reporters came on saturday morning again? mr. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. the d. what happened, how long did they stay and what happened after they left? mr. paine. well, they left quite early, i think, it might have been o'clock, relatively speaking, or : , talking to marina oswald. mr. liebeler. what did you do after they left? mr. paine. i don't remember. i think i went over to the irving apartment, i mean the grand prairie apartment, at some time during the day, i don't remember what for. i had in mind, there was something i was trying to do, i can't remember now what it was, i mean something i would have been doing on the weekend. so, between, let's say, they left at : , and about o'clock, i don't remember what happened. mr. liebeler. did you go to your place of business at any time, to the bell helicopter plant on that day? mr. paine. well, my apartment was close by it. i think somebody has asked me this question before and i think at the time i said no, and i don't remember now, that is my closest memory to that occasion. mr. liebeler. your recollection is that you did not go to the helicopter plant? mr. paine. my recollection now is now fuzzier than ever but i recall previously i thought about it and i said, no. mr. liebeler. did you go to the police station in dallas on saturday? mr. paine. yes. i recall the fbi came, not the fbi, the dallas police came and took me in their car. we went back via grand prairie which was out of the way and the sun was about setting so that was about : . mr. liebeler. did you come back to irving after you left the dallas police department? mr. paine. yes, probably or at night. mr. liebeler. did you stay at irving that evening? mr. paine. i think i probably stayed saturday evening and went back, spent sunday evening in grand prairie so i could get to work easily the next morning. mr. liebeler. do you remember talking to your wife on the telephone on saturday, november ? mr. paine. i may have called her from the police station or something like that. mr. liebeler. i am going to unwrap the package with the rifle which was wrapped in the blanket, and i want to ask you if you had ever seen this rifle, commission exhibit , before? mr. paine. not to my--the first time i saw a rifle, i didn't realize that he had a rifle. i thought, i knew he liked rifles because he spoke fondly of them in the soviet union although he regretted that he couldn't own a rifle, and i supposed that he still didn't have one so i didn't see a rifle until the night of the d when marina was shown a rifle in an adjoining cubicle glass between us. mr. liebeler. you observed through the glass a rifle being shown to marina oswald? mr. paine. that is right. mr. liebeler. did you hear any of the questions being asked her at that time? mr. paine. no; i couldn't hear. mr. liebeler. did your wife see this rifle being shown to marina oswald? mr. paine. she was in the room with her. mr. liebeler. she was in the room with marina oswald? mr. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. now, after marina oswald was shown this rifle, did your wife tell you anything about the questions that were asked of marina oswald at that time? mr. paine. yes; she said marina couldn't, wasn't able to, identify the rifle. i can't remember now whether she said she knew it was a rifle because she had looked in and seen the butt end of a rifle but didn't--i think this is what she said at the time but---- mr. liebeler. this is what---- mr. paine. i will say it again. i think ruth reported at that time, or this is a recollection i have of a report that ruth made and i think it was at that time, that marina said she couldn't identify this rifle. she knew that oswald had a rifle, and she knew that it was in a package wrapped in the blanket in the garage, but that she had only seen it accidentally when she had discovered what it was accidentally when she had looked in the corner of the package and saw the butt end of a rifle but she didn't like rifles, made her nervous or something to that effect so she didn't look at the whole rifle. mr. liebeler. did ruth tell you anything that marina oswald said about the presence or absence of a telescopic sight on the rifle at that interview with the dallas police? mr. paine. i don't remember anything that she may have said about that. mr. liebeler. but you are quite clear that your wife told you that marina had said that she could not identify the rifle that was shown to her as being the rifle that was owned by oswald? mr. paine. that is right. mr. liebeler. now, i want to draw your attention specifically to a sling or a device that serves the purpose of sling on this rifle, which is commission exhibit , and ask you if you have ever seen anything like that before? mr. paine. i am taking your question to mean did i see it on the rifle, a sling on the rifle i saw that was shown to marina? i don't think i can truthfully remember. mr. liebeler. i also want you to consider whether you have ever seen a device---- mr. paine. no; i have never seen a sling built like that. mr. liebeler. have you ever seen any device that looks like this at all whether it was designed for a rifle or for any other purpose? do you have any idea what this might be? mr. paine. no; i don't recognize it. i have never seen it. mr. liebeler. you don't remember ever having seen anything like this around your own house or garage in irving? mr. paine. no. mr. liebeler. now, we have here the parts of a rifle which is similar to the commission exhibit , and i will lay these on the blanket, and i will ask the reporter to indicate on the record that the counterpart rifle has been identified by fbi no. c- . i want to ask you, mr. paine, to try to wrap this in the package, the broken down rifle and see if that works out any better or any worse than the attempt we made to wrap the complete rifle. mr. paine. i guess all that happened was i lifted up the thing in the same fashion. i don't think that is going to help the problem. it makes the package a little bit shorter but that other package--i wouldn't have got the sense of pipe. mr. liebeler. the witness indicates that because of the stock and the rifle barrel are separate when the rifle is broken down, it seems natural, does it not, mr. paine, to place the barrel and action of the rifle directly over the top of the stock when wrapping it this way? mr. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. if you do that, you would not have the sense of grasping the muzzle of the rifle or of a pipe when you picked up the package? mr. paine. and this, putting the barrel below the stock, doesn't leave, offset the package in the way that gave me the problem with the folding shovel in there. the symmetrical shovel if i wrapped that in some fashion. also it mustn't rattle. he is going to have to tie it firmly with string not to have it as monolithic or solid as it had been. the barrel, i must have just felt the barrel, i felt a pipe, and the barrel had to be sticking out beyond the stock. mr. liebeler. you think that because the barrel of the rifle had to be sticking out behind the stock and because when the rifle is placed in the package in two different pieces, it is difficult to tie it tightly enough to keep it from rattling and you would infer that the rifle was put together when it was in the package in your garage, assuming that there was a rifle in the package in the garage? did you ever tell the fbi that you were sure in the light of recent events that you were sure it was a rifle in the package? mr. paine. i told the fbi the description or the suggestion of a rifle as the object brought together these loose pieces or loose concepts on the offset bulk which was the butt end, and the pipe, the -inch pipe i drew in the picture, so it made sense. the picture jelled when the rifle was suggested as an object. mr. liebeler. and so you concluded that it was likely that there was, in fact, a rifle in the package? mr. paine. yes; i thought that was so. mr. liebeler. i show you commission exhibit , which is a replica of a paper sack or package which was found in the school book depository, after the assassination. i point out to you that commission is merely a replica of the actual sack that was found. the actual sack that was found is commission exhibit , and it has now been discolored because it has been treated by the fbi for fingerprints. mr. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. but there is a part of the package that has not been treated, and i ask you if that part of that has not been treated is similar to commission exhibit as far as color and texture are concerned. i want you to examine both of these pieces of paper in any event. mr. paine. well, it looks to me as if is a more usual kind of paper, the difference is pretty slight. mr. liebeler. you do not notice a difference between the two papers, however? mr. paine. yes; is seems to me that is unusually crisp; yes, i would say there is a difference. mr. liebeler. and you note that the difference is, is more crisp than ? mr. paine. yes. it seems to me this is the kind of paper, it seems to me this is more common. mr. liebeler. referring to ? mr. paine. , yes. mr. liebeler. and you think that is a more commonly observed type of paper? mr. paine. yes; that is an unusual paper. you don't find paper bags made of that. mr. liebeler. referring to . now, examine, after examining both and , did you have any paper of that type as far as you know in your garage or at your home in irving? mr. paine. well, most of the things that are paper have been added to the garage since i moved out, so i am not very familiar with them. we stored some rugs in, i think, in polyethylene, but i am not sure all of them were in polyethylene, and there were some curtain rods or something like that which are still there. i don't know how they came. mr. liebeler. what kind of curtain rods? mr. paine. these expanding rods that are---- mr. liebeler. and you have no idea where they came from? mr. paine. let's see, no, those came down from--i think those were in the house, i guess they weren't bought. i think ruth took them down because the children were allergic to something, and she was taking them down, took down the curtains, and left only shades. bought shades, i guess, she bought curtain shades to go up, new shades. that is a question, well, of course, paper could have been--i don't remember any particular, i didn't have any rolls of this kind of paper or a supply of it, wrapping paper. mr. liebeler. let's go back to the curtain rods for just a minute. you say they were in the house at the time in irving when you purchased the house. mr. paine. yes, curtain rods came to my mind recently because they are junk that i try to keep propped up on the shelves or above the work bench, and i think they were in our house and there were curtains on them and she took the curtains down to get rid of the fabric that might be holding dust and put up instead some new curtains, new window shades in the bedrooms. mr. liebeler. approximately when did she do that, do you remember? mr. paine. you will have to ask ruth herself. she put down a new floor, also, getting rid of the old rugs for the same purpose, and i thought it was in the fall, but i can't place when it was. mr. liebeler. in the fall of ? mr. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. do you say the curtain rods are still in the garage? mr. paine. yes, i think so. mr. liebeler. approximately how long are they? mr. paine. well, i think this is, when they expand, i guess the curtain rods themselves are - / inches to feet, but the two of them slide together to make a pair, this expanding type just of rod metal. mr. liebeler. approximately how long are they, would you say, when they are fitted together and in their collapsed state or their---- mr. paine. as i say, those came out of the house or she would not have, i was trying to think of some of the paper she might have had that resembles this, but the thing she bought new would be the shades, the window shades to go in place of those curtain rods. mr. liebeler. do you remember seeing any paper in the garage that might have been a package in which those shades came? mr. paine. no, i don't recall any. mr. liebeler. did you ever have a conversation with your wife about these curtain rods in connection with the assassination? mr. paine. no. i think we did both read that he had said he was, to frazier, that he was carrying, maybe it was curtain rods or something to do with windows in my mind. mr. liebeler. but your wife didn't mention to you that oswald ever mentioned to her anything about the curtains rods? mr. paine. no. mr. liebeler. now, place yourself in the garage on or about november , , , or shortly before that time, and tell me everything that you can remember as being in that garage. mr. paine. well, there is a bench along, in front of, a fiberglass window panel. that bench is generally covered with boxes, there are boxes underneath that bench. on the end of the bench is a drill press. my recollection is confused by the fact i am much more familiar with it now that i have moved back and i have moved my stuff into that garage, so it is fuzzy in my memory. mr. liebeler. were you present on november when the police or the fbi or any other authorities searched the garage? mr. paine. no, i wasn't. mr. liebeler. what time did you get to the irving house on the d? mr. paine. i think just about o'clock. mr. liebeler. o'clock on friday afternoon? mr. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. what were the circumstances under which you first heard of the assassination on that day? mr. paine. i was eating lunch in the bowling alley, and the waitress came and told me. i thought she was joking, and we went and listened to somebody's transistor, and then i went back to the lab. mr. liebeler. at that time you had heard only that the president had been shot, is that correct? mr. paine. yes, that is correct. mr. liebeler. there was no connection with oswald? mr. paine. that is correct. mr. liebeler. and the assassination at that time? mr. paine. that is right. went back to the lab and then---- mr. liebeler. before you get back to the lab let me ask you this, who was with you at the first time you heard the assassination? mr. paine. dave noel. mr. liebeler. was mr. krystinik with you? mr. paine. no. mr. liebeler. did you hear during this first period of time when you first heard of the assassination, that the president had been shot near the texas school book depository? mr. paine. i don't believe so. i think, i heard that he had been shot, i listened over some of the crowd's shoulders, a little cluster of people listening to a transistor radio thereby knowing it was no joke, so we went back to the lab where there is a radio. so i didn't hear it until i got back to the lab. as soon as i got back to the lab it was not very long after that that it was mentioned, that the texas school book depository building was mentioned, and then i mentioned to frank krystinik that is where lee worked, and then in the course of the next half hour frank and i were discussing whether to report to the fbi that lee worked there, and---- mr. liebeler. tell me what you said and what he said. mr. paine. he was urging me to do it, and or asking whether i didn't think we should do it, and i was torn but i came up with the decision no, the fbi already knows he works there. everybody will be jumping on him because he is a black sheep, and i didn't want to join the hysterical mob in his harassment. so i decided i wouldn't call, i didn't say that i couldn't but i said i wasn't going to call the fbi on it. mr. liebeler. and you told him that? mr. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. what did he say? mr. paine. well, i think he accepted it. mr. liebeler. did it occur to you at that time that oswald had in fact had anything to do with the assassination? mr. paine. yes, of course, it did, i am sure it made by heart leap to hear that building mentioned. but i thought--i didn't see how it helped the causes that he presumably was concerned about, so i thought it unlikely on that account alone. mr. liebeler. did you think he was capable of doing that at that time? mr. paine. we heard or somewhere i read or heard a report, and an eye witness, presumably eye witness, report saying the man who was shooting the president took his good old time or, in other words, fired with deliberateness. this seemed in character. mr. liebeler. with oswald? mr. paine. with oswald, yes. i don't think he was a person with compassion, or--the only reason i didn't think he was because i didn't see how it fitted in with his philosophy or how it was going to forward his causes, not because it seemed--not because it was not possible to his nature or his character. mr. liebeler. did you call ruth after you learned of the assassination and prior to the time that you heard oswald---- mr. paine. yes, i did call her. mr. liebeler. what did you say and what did she say? mr. paine. we said very little. that must have been, i guess i called her immediately getting back to the lab, so she would be watching and listening and getting clued in to the news, start watching the news. that must have also been before the texas book depository building was mentioned because i would have mentioned that i didn't. i just--we said almost nothing except---- mr. liebeler. did you talk to her after you learned that the tsbd was involved, but before you learned that oswald was suspected of being involved? mr. paine. no, i don't believe i called her again. mr. liebeler. did you subsequently learn that oswald had been arrested? mr. paine. yes. as soon as i heard his name mentioned, then i went home. his name, of course, was mentioned not in connection with the texas book depository building but simply as a person caught in the theatre. but that was enough connection for me. mr. liebeler. because you knew he did work at the tsbd? mr. paine. yes, of course, frank and i were having this heart-wrenching discussion about the right thing to do. and justification for my action was based on the thought that he was probably not the one and, therefore, it was a cruelty to be adding to the harassment that he would inevitably encounter because anyone who knew him for very long surely knew his views. that is he would, he would be a black sheep in any crowd of americans. mr. liebeler. let's go back to the question of this paper. do you have any recollection of ever seeing any paper like either one of these two samples in front of you, and , in or about your place in irving, tex.? and in connection with this question consider also the gummed wrapping tape with which the packages are reconstructed? mr. paine. we have a roll of gummed wrapping paper at home but this is inches wide and we have -inch wide. do you have a ruler here? yes, this is -inch tape. now i don't remember for certain what the tape is we had at home, but i had the impression it was a -inch tape. mr. liebeler. do you have any recollection that the authorities inquired about this question before? mr. paine. no, i don't recall that question at all. mr. liebeler. do you still have that tape? mr. paine. yes, we do. mr. liebeler. i would like to have you make sure that it doesn't get lost when we come down to dallas within the next week or two. we will ask you some more questions about it. mr. paine. all right. do you want me to make a note of it? mr. liebeler. in fact, i will ask you if you would, when you return to irving, if you would take a sample of that tape and mail it to me at the commission so that between now and the time i come to texas the fbi will have an opportunity to examine it and compare it with the tape which has been used in making bags. do you recall whether that tape was at your premises on november ? mr. paine. i think so. it has been there for quite a long time. that is presumably. i don't think it has been used up. i was using it fairly recently. i didn't use much so it would still be there, and i think it had been a big roll and now it is a small roll. we don't use much. mr. liebeler. where was it located on the d of november, do you remember? mr. paine. yes; there is a drawer which it is possible he knew of. the desk--i think he helped us move the furniture around at that time the desk was moved to its present position, which is right beside the garage door. there is a kitchen-dining area and from that the door leads into the garage and it is right beside that door in the bottom drawer. mr. liebeler. what about the paper. do you think that there is any possibility that oswald could have gotten the paper from which he presumably made this bag at your place? mr. paine. well, i don't recognize that paper. mr. liebeler. referring to ? mr. paine. or as i say, this looks more common or cheaper grade of paper. mr. liebeler. referring to . mr. paine. and i don't remember paper of either kind, of course, in the garage itself. mr. liebeler. do you have any recollection of the authorities inquiring about the presence or absence of paper like this at your place? mr. paine. no, i don't remember. mr. liebeler. did you have any discussions about any questions which the fbi or the other authorities may have asked your wife about this question? mr. paine. i don't remember anything on it. one way or the other about that. mr. liebeler. to the best of your recollection the subject has never been mentioned between yourself and your wife? mr. paine. i am certain that i have never discussed tape with anyone. i did know it was reported in the paper that lee went to work that morning with something wrapped in brown paper, curtain rods, i guess he did call it. whether we, had some discussion or i think it is--we may have had some discussion. i just don't remember the burden of it. mr. liebeler. i have a list of names of people who i think lived in the dallas and fort worth area and i want to ask you whether you know them or whether their names are familiar to you. mr. and mrs. peter gregory? mr. paine. the name has been mentioned. ruth, i think. russian speaking people, ruth has mentioned the name. mr. liebeler. you have never met them? mr. paine. not to my knowledge. mr. liebeler. do you have any recollection of what ruth told you about them? mr. paine. i don't believe she had met them either. no, i don't recall what she said about them. mr. liebeler. did she tell you that she had called mr. peter gregory in connection with some work she wanted to do in the russian language, subsequent to the assassination? mr. paine. i don't remember the context in which she mentioned peter gregory's name. mr. liebeler. max clark. mr. paine. that is an unfamiliar name. mr. liebeler. gali clark? mr. paine. no, i don't know that. mr. liebeler. elena hall, mrs. john hall? mr. paine. no, i don't remember that. mr. liebeler. mr. george bouhe? mr. paine. no. mr. liebeler. anna meller? mr. paine. no. mr. liebeler. anna ray? mr. paine. no. mr. liebeler. and that is mr. and mrs. frank ray? mr. paine. no. mr. liebeler. george de mohrenschildt? mr. paine. it was, the name there is familiar. i don't believe i have met them. they were friends of everett glover and then everett glover moved to their house later. mr. liebeler. moved into de mohrenschildt's house? mr. paine. yes; they were, they had been in haiti for a while, i think. mr. liebeler. did mr. glover tell you that? mr. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. you never met de mohrenschildt? mr. paine. i have--everett gave some parties to which we went, it is possible that i--for practical purposes i had not met them. mr. liebeler. you don't know anything about them? mr. paine. no. mr. liebeler. did oswald ever speak of them? mr. paine. i think he did, yes, yes; he did. mr. liebeler. do you remember what he said? mr. paine. i remember, i don't remember what he said about them. i was--it is possibly because he said the name twice and i didn't catch it until after the second time he had spoken of it or it didn't ring a bell, de mohrenschildt didn't ring a bell, or he didn't pronounce it with such clarity or something. so it didn't really register and i didn't connect it up with whatever he was saying at the time. mr. liebeler. gary and alexandra taylor? mr. paine. no; i don't think so. mr. liebeler. tatiana biggers? mr. paine. everett had--biggers doesn't sound like the right name. at one time everett was--had a ballet dancer that had some kind of a name like that. he introduced me to a--i think we met at a theater and he introduced me to some--let's say no; i don't know. mr. liebeler. the name previously mentioned, mr. everett glover, is he a close friend of yours? mr. paine. we have known him a long time since we have been in dallas. we met the glovers at madrigal singing, we liked to sing madrigals, and he was part of the group and his wife used to sing at the unitarian church in the choir where i sing, and they were separated two years ago probably and i have seen him only occasionally when he would go to the madrigals and once i went skating with him. occasionally we have met also at the theater center. he has been there also. occasionally also i have stopped by--there is a--he showed up once or twice at a single adult party dance of the unitarian church. mr. liebeler. he doesn't work with bell helicopter, does he? mr. paine. no; he works for an oil company, i think. mr. liebeler. he is a geologist? mr. paine. he may be something of that sort. mr. liebeler. richard pierce? mr. paine. yes; he lived with everett glover. mr. liebeler. how well do you know him? mr. paine. i know him much less than everett. when we visited everett's house for a sing or something, i think i would meet him, and he also would come to these single adult parties--but i don't know---- mr. liebeler. what about mr. and mrs. norman fredricksen? mr. paine. that name doesn't ring a bell either. mr. liebeler. volkmar schmidt? mr. paine. he is in that same category with mr. pierce living with everett and occasionally showing up at the stag parties. mr. liebeler. do you know a mr. and mrs. thomas ray? mr. paine. i don't think i know ray. mr. liebeler. ilya mamantov? mr. paine. i suppose that is mr. mamantov whom i recognize by sight but i may have shaken his hand. mr. liebeler. how do you have occasion to recognize him by sight? mr. paine. well, he is the son-in-law, if ilya is the right name--i don't know, i know him as mr. mamantov, ruth's tutor, i have forgotten his name at this time. mr. liebeler. dorothy gravitis? mr. paine. that is right. and i have seen him around smu and he was an interpreter at the police station. mr. liebeler. do you know anybody by the name of harten? mr. paine. no. mr. liebeler. warner kloepfer? mr. paine. no; i don't think so. mr. liebeler. has ruth ever spoken to you of the kloepfers? mr. paine. not that i can recall. mr. liebeler. my understanding is they lived there in new orleans. mr. paine. oh, then i don't know them. no. mr. liebeler. do you know a charles edward harris? mr. paine. no. mr. liebeler. florence mcdonald? mr. paine. i know elizabeth macdonald, i think it is. mr. liebeler. who is she? mr. paine. she was a friend of--she would come to these madrigal groups and i think she a a friend of either of everett or of pierce or something like that. it was in connection with the madrigal sings and i think they were the ones who brought them into circulation. mr. liebeler. do you know col. j. d. wilmeth? mr. paine. no; i don't know him. a colleague at work lives nearby who shares a well with him and keeps it repaired. mr. liebeler. who does? mr. paine. clark benham, another colleague at work, uses the water from colonel wilmeth's well and has to keep the well operating so i hear stories about mr. wilmeth and he lives with his old, ancient mother. i haven't met him myself, i don't believe. mr. liebeler. you mentioned that--did you mention that he called you at your office at one time? mr. paine. yes; i think he has, yes. mr. liebeler. would you tell us the circumstances of that event? mr. paine. well, he wanted to see marina, i think, he wanted to hear, i think he said he wanted to hear the native tongue spoken or spoken by a native. and so he was quite eager to meet both ruth and marina and called me to ask how and when and what not. so, he may have called me more than once on that subject. mr. liebeler. do you have any idea why he called you at work? in order to contact these women? mr. paine. it seemed very appropriate. maybe clark, clark, of course, sees him quite frequently, and maybe clark told him that marina was living with us. i cannot--i could be clued in. i remember at the time there was a reason for it. i mean it seemed appropriate, it wasn't out of the blue, but i can't--unless it was that i had been talking about marina with clark and then clark told it to him. mr. liebeler. you never have met colonel wilmeth? mr. paine. i don't believe so. mr. liebeler. did ruth ever tell you that colonel wilmeth had come to call on her and marina? mr. paine. yes; that call or one or two calls he made to the lab to me was asking me if i would make it possible for him to meet them and so i told ruth, and either ruth called or i told her that he was, he would like to come on the weekend or something or he would call, i forget, but anyway i was a go-between to help in a polite way to meet ruth. mr. liebeler. did ruth tell you about the meeting when he came? mr. paine. she did; yes. mr. liebeler. tell us about it. mr. paine. i think she said she had a good time, i don't remember. mr. liebeler. do you remember any of the details of what she said? mr. paine. i don't remember the details; no. mr. liebeler. do you know a gentleman by the name of clifton m. shasteen? mr. paine. no; i don't. mr. liebeler. he is a barber in irving, tex. mr. paine. no. mr. liebeler. do you ordinarily get your hair cut in irving? mr. paine. i used to get my hair cut, and i don't think that is the name of the person or where it used to be done but for the year that i was living in grand prairie, i found a barber i liked better over there and i had it done over there all the time, almost all the time. i guess i haven't in months. i had another barber down in irving and got a bad haircut. mr. liebeler. how much does a haircut cost in irving? mr. paine. i think more frequently it is a dollar fifty; when i get it over in grand prairie it is a dollar and a quarter. mr. liebeler. is there a standard price so far as you know for barber shops in irving? mr. paine. i would suppose a dollar and fifty was. mr. liebeler. did you ever know oswald to associate with any young boys? there has been a report that he was seen in the presence of, in the company of a -year-old boy. do you know of anyone fitting that description? mr. paine. i don't know of anyone with whom he associated. i didn't--i was aware of not asking him how he spent his free time. mr. liebeler. there has also been a report from mr. leonard edwin hutchinson who apparently runs hutch's supermarket in irving that oswald came in there on a certain day and asked to cash a two-party check for $ . have you ever heard anything about that? mr. paine. no; i haven't. mr. liebeler. do you know mr. hutchison? mr. paine. no; i don't believe i did. mr. liebeler. do you know, are you familiar with hutch's market, supermarket? mr. paine. i am trying to think of the name of the market that is on storey road, not storey, shady lane--shady grove road or lane, that is, if he isn't on that address then i don't know where it is. mr. liebeler. did you ever take oswald to any supermarket? mr. paine. i didn't; no. mr. liebeler. did he ever use your automobile? mr. paine. not to my knowledge. presumably he couldn't drive. he couldn't have used my automobile very well because i don't believe he knew where my second key was, and i would always have the key. mr. liebeler. what kind of an automobile do you own? mr. paine. it is a french citroen. mr. liebeler. what model? mr. paine. ; year . mr. liebeler. not a cv? mr. paine. no; it is an id- , i guess. mr. liebeler. is that the only automobile that you own? mr. paine. while they were here i bought a second automobile; an olds, ' or ' oldsmobile, ' , i believe. mr. liebeler. when was this? mr. paine. during the time, sometime between september and november, i bought a secondhand ' oldsmobile. mr. liebeler. for your own personal use? mr. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. so that you then had two cars? mr. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. and ruth has a station wagon, doesn't she? mr. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. and that is her own car? mr. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. is that the only automobile that she owns? mr. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. what model is that? mr. paine. ' . mr. liebeler. chevrolet station wagon? mr. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. do you know whether oswald used that? mr. paine. ruth took oswald to practice driving in a parking lot. mr. liebeler. did she tell you about that? mr. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. what did she tell you? mr. paine. i can't remember whether she has told me so much more since november and i can't remember whether she may have said before that. she was telling me how he was persistent, diligent in trying to learn, not very particularly skilled, and apparently quite pleased at the whole process. he was grateful to her and one of the nicest kinds of communication she had with him. mr. liebeler. did she say anything about his ability to drive a car? mr. paine. she thought it was pretty crude. he was having trouble operating the clutch, and over-controlling the stick, or the steering wheel. those are my words. she didn't use "over-controlling" but put it in some other way. mr. liebeler. the station wagon has a straight transmission. mr. paine. no; it is an automatic transmission, power brakes. mr. liebeler. was he practicing on the station wagon or---- mr. paine. yes; over-controlling the stick, i was thinking of an airplane. mr. liebeler. i thought you mentioned the clutch. mr. paine. maybe it was the brake; did i mention the clutch? mr. liebeler. at any event she wasn't overly impressed with his ability to manipulate the controls? mr. paine. she was impressed with how much a person has to learn when they learn to drive a car. mr. liebeler. did you ever lend oswald any money? mr. paine. no; i didn't. mr. liebeler. did you ever give him any? mr. paine. no; i didn't. mr. liebeler. do you know whether your wife did? mr. paine. i don't believe she gave lee any money. she gave marina pocket money. mr. liebeler. do you have any idea of how much she gave marina? mr. paine. generally she would pay for things that marina needed, medicines and things like that. i think she also gave her pocket money. it may have been five dollars a week or something like that. it could have been ten dollars a week. i doubt if it would be that much. mr. liebeler. do you have any knowledge of oswald spending any money for bus fare from dallas, between dallas and irving or anywhere else? mr. paine. he would come out and i suppose by bus to irving. i do remember that he came out a couple of times, and then wanted somebody to pick him up there. mr. liebeler. at the bus station in irving? mr. paine. at the bus station in irving. mr. liebeler. would you say it was just twice that he did that? mr. paine. i think that is about all. mr. liebeler. do you have any idea what the bus fare from dallas to irving is? mr. paine. no; i don't have any idea. mr. liebeler. do you know whether oswald spent any money for telephone calls? mr. paine. i never saw oswald spend any money. mr. liebeler. for anything, under any circumstances at any time? mr. paine. yes. of course, that shouldn't be--you construe that as you please, but if you think it is penny-pinching it may be. but i saw him at home and not in any position to spend money. he didn't have any money jingling in his pockets that i recalled. mr. liebeler. do you know whether oswald owned any cameras? mr. paine. i wasn't aware of it. mr. liebeler. do you know whether he ever bought any records, musical records? mr. paine. well, they made some records for us, i thought they were marina's records. we played some records for them and they wanted to play some for us or something, so they were records that were russian singing or something, i can't remember what it was. it was rather poor fidelity so i didn't enjoy listening to them. mr. liebeler. did you know whether oswald received any periodicals or mail at your address in irving? mr. paine. yes. the daily worker, or it is not the daily worker now but the worker, what is it called now? mr. liebeler. the worker. mr. paine. would come. ruth said he received all his, the militant also there. i don't remember, recall, seeing the militant there but generally, i didn't see the mail very much. she would put my mail apart, i had half my mail or more than half my mail would come to that address, since i didn't feel the one at grand prairie was a permanent address, so i didn't see most of the mail. she would separate my mail into a separate pile and i would pick it up. mr. liebeler. did you ever have any discussion with oswald about these periodicals? mr. paine. yes. he said in regard to, i think, the worker or at least it was the worker he gave me to look at as the result of his conversation, he told me if you knew how to read the thing and read between the lines a little bit you could see what they wanted you to do. mr. liebeler. he said that? mr. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. when did he say that? mr. paine. i think that was a week or two after he came, pretty soon after coming back. i talked to him rather less and less as the weeks rolled by. mr. liebeler. did you ask him what he meant by that remark? mr. paine. well, i certainly wish i had, no; i didn't. i took the issue he gave me just to make my eye go over it. i thought to myself instead here is a person who is pretty, well, out of it again if this is the way he gets his communications from headquarters. mr. liebeler. tell us everything that you can remember about that conversation. mr. paine. that wasn't much of a conversation. it happened in an afternoon. i am afraid i can't remember anything more about it. i remember only the thoughts, i sort of smiled to myself when he said this. mr. liebeler. why? mr. paine. thinking of the kind of person--what it said about him so it suggested to me he wanted to be a party to something or a part of a group that had objectives. in other words, he wanted to be an activist of some sort. and he wasn't aware of--it seemed somewhat childish to me. mr. liebeler. why do you say that? mr. paine. well, it would have seemed more competent to have more explicit communication clandestine, if it would have to be clandestine. and if you had more explicit communication of some sort you wouldn't mention receiving your directions from the newspaper, reading between the lines of a newspaper. mr. liebeler. did he ever say anything to you that would indicate that he had ever received more explicit instructions from anybody regarding any subject in the political field? mr. paine. no; he didn't, and it was these various--there weren't many occasions. another time at the aclu, in this talk that he had with frank or this argument that he had with frank and a third person on the way home he asked me if i knew that third person and whether i thought he was a communist, and he said he thought he was a communist, lee thought the third person was a communist, and he gave me some reason and i think it had to do with a receptivity to some words spoken about castro. and i thought that was such a feeble reason or explanation of a communist that again i thought to myself he must be out of it if that is the way he has to find his fellow travelers. mr. liebeler. when you use the expression "out of it" do you mean to convey the idea that he was not closely associated with any communist group or he just had a very tenuous grip on reality? mr. paine. no; i mean in this case he was not associated with a cell or a communist group. this i didn't know. that was the impression and thought in the back of my mind from the things he had said. mr. liebeler. when he made this remark about the person at the aclu meeting being a communist how was the remark made, did he seem to indicate to you some desire to reach out and to know this person, to meet this person, to associate with him or was he just making a general remark or were you thinking in the perjurative sense, how did he speak, what impression did he give you? mr. paine. i had the impression that he hoped he would be a communist and he would like to meet him again, yes. mr. liebeler. did you notice the person, this third person? mr. paine. no; i didn't. mr. liebeler. was he an elderly person? mr. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. do you know a reverend helligas? mr. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. this was not him? mr. paine. no. mr. liebeler. did you observe oswald speak with reverend helligas that evening at the meeting? mr. paine. no; i didn't. mr. liebeler. have you ever learned the identity of this third person? mr. paine. no; i haven't. mr. liebeler. have you ever seen him again? mr. paine. i think that is the last aclu meeting i have been to. they convene very infrequently. mr. liebeler. by that do you mean you have not seen this person again? mr. paine. therefore, i have not seen him again. i expect he is a registered member of the aclu. i had the impression he was an aclu member. he is rather softspoken, a quiet man. mr. liebeler. would you recognize him again if you saw him? mr. paine. i probably would. mr. liebeler. have you discussed him with anybody else in the aclu? mr. paine. i joined frank to the aclu now. mr. liebeler. you discussed him with frank? mr. paine. yes; that is frank krystinik. mr. liebeler. have you attempted to identify this third person? mr. paine. no; i never, i have not. mr. liebeler. did you ever know oswald to give marina any money during the time that marina lived at your house? mr. paine. no; i did not. mr. liebeler. when oswald stayed at your home in irving on the weekends, did he eat all of his meals there? mr. paine. i came only for friday's supper and would leave and would sometimes be there on sunday. therefore, i couldn't be--i was not in a position to say. i think he did. mr. liebeler. do you know whether he ever made any contribution in respect to those meals? mr. paine. oh, no, he didn't. mr. liebeler. did he make any contribution to any of the other expenses of the household? mr. paine. no, he didn't. i for one didn't expect him to. i didn't--i would have been surprised had he done so. mr. liebeler. do you know whether he packed lunch in the morning when he left for work and took it with him or ate breakfast there before he left? mr. paine. he would eat breakfast there. this again was just what ruth has told me, he would eat a breakfast consisting of coffee and maybe a piece of toast. i forget what it is. i don't believe he packed a lunch. mr. liebeler. you do believe? mr. paine. i don't believe he did. mr. liebeler. you don't believe. mr. paine. i don't know of it. mr. liebeler. did oswald ever discuss finances with you or in your presence? mr. paine. well, i raised the problem when he obtained the job at the book depository building, i mentioned that one and a quarter, i wanted to confirm at one and a quarter, and i did somehow. mr. liebeler. why did you want to confirm that? mr. paine. it seemed to me that is still a pretty slim pickings to live on, also i was concerned about how long the job might last, and i inquired, therefore, about the number of people working there and how come he was employed after all after the school year began so if he was employed then it was possible that it was a full year occupation. i would have normally expected the rush of employment to be prior to the school year. and then to lay off after the books had been sent. i was concerned in other words that he should be able to keep his job, but also i would have preferred had it been a little bit more money he would be a happier person. mr. liebeler. that later part is your own surmise? mr. paine. yes; but it is my own experience. mr. liebeler. in terms of oswald? mr. paine. he was pleased to get the job, and i avoided talking too directly about the possibility of his losing that job because i felt it was, he would be concerned about the same matter, and now perhaps i was projecting but i do remember not asking as many questions about that as were in my mind just because i didn't want to arouse the anxiety that he must feel in regard to the job. mr. liebeler. did he ever indicate to you that he felt that the fbi was responsible for his not being able to obtain a job? mr. paine. no; he didn't. mr. liebeler. did he ever indicate that he thought the fbi was responsible for his losing a job? mr. paine. no; he never mentioned losing a job with me. i surmised from the first time i met him, he was at the neely street address, and marina was packing, took about half an hour to leave and marina was packing things for junie. and so he and i sat on the sofa and talked. mr. liebeler. this is before he went to new orleans? mr. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. and they were packing to go to new orleans? mr. paine. no, no; packing to come over to our house for dinner. mr. liebeler. i see. mr. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. this was the first time you met him? mr. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. what did he say? mr. paine. and there he mentioned how he didn't have people at work, people who talked about this subject of politics and economics and he also mentioned with some bitterness how his employer made more money than he did and the things that his employer had that he did not have. it was the only time i observed personal animosity, and i thought to myself, he must be rather difficult, that animosity or resentment must show through to his employer. this was just in what he said. it struck me that these things must happen. when he later lost his job, i don't know whether it was later or not but he may have lost the job already, i didn't realize it, i thought he was still employed there. these seemed to me adequate reasons, sub rosa reasons for his dismissal. mr. liebeler. you never had any indication from anyone that he felt the fbi was in any way responsible for his losing his job? mr. paine. he never mentioned the fbi to me. and i never talked with anyone else who knew him except ruth. ruth did, of course indicate, told me of his extreme allergy to the fbi. mr. liebeler. but she didn't indicate that he felt that they had caused him to lose jobs? mr. paine. i think she mentioned this, she asked me not to mention this to other people but i guess you are not just other people. she read this note which he had left on her desk, i had the impression it was a couple of days; actually it was only a day or so. he had written, typed it but had written a rough draft which he left on her desk; she gave the note, her copy of it, perhaps, she copied it for me to read. i didn't really absorb it, i did read it, and i did read he spoke of the notorious fbi. ruth cited the letter to me as an example of how he could lie. she hadn't been aware of his lying before. she thought his trip to mexico, which he mentioned his trip to mexico in his letter hadn't been true and it was a fabrication, but it was, we talked, therefore, a little bit about his--also, i think---- mr. liebeler. his feeling about the fbi? mr. paine. we talked a little bit about his abuse of the fbi there. and also i think it was mentioned that, ruth mentioned to me that, the fbi had been out once or twice or had reported this to me, and that lee seemed to resent that. mr. liebeler. let's go back to this letter, when did ruth first show you this letter, and i take it you are referring to a draft of a letter from oswald to the russian embassy? mr. paine. i didn't know who it was written to. mr. liebeler. but the letter referred to the notorious fbi? mr. paine. yes; i don't think it was the russian embassy. i thought it was a friend to whom he was speaking in a rather braggart way of what he had done. he had gone down to the cuban consulate in mexico, and they had, i think this is the letter, i could be mixed up, and that they had not given him a visa--actually, i had made a mistake in the heading because i thought--it said, "dear sirs," but i though it said, "dear lisa." ruth told me it had said, "dear sirs." mr. liebeler. this was in russian or in english? mr. paine. she must have shown me the letter in his hand, therefore, yes. i thought it was "dear lisa," english. mr. liebeler. when did she show you this letter? mr. paine. this is a confusing matter, because i was reading some other magazine at the time, and she intruded this thing on my attention, and i didn't really shift attention too well. mr. liebeler. was it before the assassination or afterwards? mr. paine. it was before, yes. no; afterwards, i would have paid close attention to it. since recently, i have, ruth has, figured out that it must have been, he must have started writing on friday or something and she cleaned up or removed the desk, it was that time when we moved the furniture. it had been written just prior to that, and we did that on a sunday night. maybe she preserved his original draft, i don't remember what happened, because i would have guessed that in order to misread the "dear sirs" for "dear lisa," i would have seen it, i would have read it correctly in her hand. mr. liebeler. recapitulate for me, if you can, the number of times and the dates on which you saw oswald after he returned from new orleans up until the time of the assassination. you said you saw him, i believe shortly after he returned from wherever he had been. mr. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. and that was around october , was it not? mr. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. the first part of october. when was the next time you saw him? mr. paine. i think i probably saw him on each weekend except the one preceding the assassination. there were at least one or two, i think there were two before he had a job and then he had a job and a birthday party. mr. liebeler. that would have been october , would it not, approximately, when he had a birthday party or represented to you that his birthday was october ? mr. paine. yes; he may have celebrated the next day but---- mr. liebeler. and your recollection is that you saw him each weekend after that except for the weekend immediately prior to the assassination? mr. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. the weekend of november , , and was a long weekend, was it not? mr. paine. he was there then. i remember we didn't have a long weekend, bell didn't. he had another day to sit in front of the tv. mr. liebeler. was that the last weekend that you saw him then? mr. paine. if that is the one prior, two weekends, yes. mr. liebeler. now, starting at november , , and , which was the last time you saw him, consider when your wife showed you the draft of the letter that we spoke of just before. would it have been that weekend or after that? mr. paine. well, i suppose it would be after that. they weren't in the house when she showed it to me or at least he wasn't. i don't remember when he wrote that letter or when we moved the furniture. mr. liebeler. you don't remember whether you saw oswald after you read the letter or not? mr. paine. that is a good question, i can see some point to it now. one would surmise that, and i would think it reasonable that i would have looked at him with somewhat different point of view after having read the letter, and i don't remember looking at him with that different point of view, so quite possibly i didn't see him again. mr. liebeler. so we would--the conclusion would be suggested that she showed you the letter sometime after november or , ? mr. paine. yes; yes, i would guess that she, as i say, i would come to a dinner when he was not there on either of the tuesday or the wednesday and that would have been a reasonable time that she would have shown me the letter. mr. liebeler. did you have a discussion with her about this subject of his having gone to mexico which was discussed in the letter, was it not? mr. paine. she thought it was a fabrication, a complete fabrication. and she did not discuss, she gave me the letter, and as i say i was reading some other magazine and i read the letter and went back to my magazine. how dense people can be. but anyway---- mr. liebeler. did she---- mr. paine. so we did not talk about it until later, then she took the letter back and put it in an envelope or something, she didn't want me to see it. she was sort of irked that i didn't. mr. liebeler. look at it when she wanted you to look at it? mr. paine. pay more attention to this thing, yes. but she didn't want me to see it again. "if you didn't see anything in it never mind looking at it." mr. liebeler. did she tell you about any discussions she had with marina oswald about oswald's having been in mexico? mr. paine. i was under the impression that ruth didn't know he had been in mexico until after the assassination and, therefore, and i think ruth later said, was dismayed also that marina had been apparently, had apparently known and deceived her in this matter. mr. liebeler. well, did ruth mention the fact that marina had a little charm made out of mexican peso. mr. paine. yes; but we didn't put that two and two together there until the fbi came and we looked on our drill press to see if they had used the tools in the shop to mount the sights on the gun and we found these little metal filings and then ruth remembered that he had drilled out a coin to give to marina and she never--i can't remember whether she realized then that it was a peso or ruth hadn't thought that much about it until afterward. mr. liebeler. and you didn't discuss that subject prior to the assassination, with your wife? mr. paine. i didn't know about this whole thing, this medallion. mr. liebeler. did your wife mention the fact that marina oswald had a record of mexican music? mr. paine. no; i didn't know that until now. i don't recall it. mr. liebeler. did your wife tell you anything about the nature of her relationship with marina oswald during this period from the first of october up to the assassination? mr. paine. it all seemed perfectly reasonable to me. when ruth had met marina back in the spring, i had seen that marina oswald--when i met them in their apartment, oswald had spoken very loudly and harshly to marina, and i thought to myself, isn't it amazing to see a little fellow who insists on wearing the pants, strongly. and then later on in discussions which followed the discussion which followed, that evening at the house, our house, he would not let her have a contrary opinion, and i also saw she was allergic to gibes, and he would gibe frequently. mr. liebeler. she was allergic to them? mr. paine. it seemed to me so. mr. liebeler. they affected her greatly? mr. paine. yes. this all went on in russian, and i don't know what he was saying. but i could see the object about which the statement was made, and later ruth also told me some of the things that he had said. but i felt that he was keeping her a vassal, and since i was more eager to hear her opinions of russia than his opinions of russia, i was eager that she should learn english, and when--ruth told me that marina thought she must have to go back to the soviet union, and i thought out of largesse of this country it should be possible for her to stay here if she wanted to stay here and she quite apparently did, she struck me as a somewhat apolitical person and yet true, just, and conscientious, so it was agreeable to me to look forward to financing her stay until she could make her own way here. it added--ruth also wanted to learn russian, this was a cheap way for her to learn russian, than to pay tutoring. and, as it happened, it was costing me less. she didn't go out shopping so much. mr. liebeler. when she was home learning russian from marina? mr. paine. when marina was there to keep her company. she would go mad with boredom, i would think. so that it--we were somewhat saddened, or i think ruth was, i think we shared--ruth, of course, didn't want to stand in the way of marina and lee if they were happy together, but would have been glad to see marina break away and make her own way. and she was a nice companion for ruth. mr. liebeler. did you have any impression of how marina and ruth got along together, what they did with their time during the day, that sort of thing? (discussion off the record.) mr. liebeler. mr. paine, you mentioned before these curtain rods that were in your garage. can you tell us approximately how many curtain rods there were in the garage when you last saw them and tell us when you last saw them? mr. paine. i saw them quite recently, weeks ago. mr. liebeler. how many curtain rods were there then? mr. paine. there might be as many as four. mr. liebeler. were there ever any more than that? mr. paine. i don't believe so. these were normally up on the shelf above the bench, and for some reason, they recently, i had to take them down, or something like that. mr. liebeler. do you remember seeing them shortly before november at any time? mr. paine. they never particularly impressed themselves on my recollection. mr. liebeler. those are all the questions i have. testimony of raymond franklin krystinik the testimony of raymond franklin krystinik was taken at a.m., on march , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by messrs. albert e. jenner, jr. and wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. liebeler. will you rise and raise your right hand? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. krystinik. i do. mr. liebeler. mr. krystinik, i am a member of the legal staff of the president's commission which has been established pursuant to executive order , dated november , . last week mr. rankin sent you a letter and told you that i would be in touch with you, did he not? mr. krystinik. yes. mr. liebeler. enclosed with that letter were copies of the executive order , and a copy of the joint resolution of congress , and the rules of the commission's procedure in taking the testimony. mr. krystinik. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. you received those documents? mr. krystinik. yes. mr. liebeler. the general nature of our inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of president kennedy and the subsequent violent death of lee harvey oswald. we wish to inquire of you as to your knowledge of oswald as a result of your having met him, as we understand it, through michael paine prior to the assassination. we also want to question you about some of the events that occurred shortly after the assassination, and some conversation you had with mr. paine at that time. would you state your name for the record? mr. krystinik. raymond franklin krystinik. mr. liebeler. where do you live? mr. krystinik. greenway street, arlington, tex. mr. liebeler. where do you work? mr. krystinik. bell helicopter research laboratory, located at avenue e, east, arlington, tex. it is a part of bell helicopter co. their address is box , fort worth, tex. mr. liebeler. how long have you worked for bell? mr. krystinik. since june , . mr. liebeler. would you tell us briefly what your educational background is, mr. krystinik? mr. krystinik. i started grade school in caldwell, tex. i moved to bryan and finished grade school in the smetana school at bryan, tex. and from there to fredericksburg. at fredericksburg i went to st. mary's catholic school and grade school, and from fredericksburg to grand prairie, tex. i went to high school in grand prairie, tex. graduated in . i went to work for chance vought aircraft aviation from high school. went into the navy in , i believe. i don't remember exactly. i have to look it up. i was married in . got out of the navy in august of . started to school at arlington state college in september of , and i graduated from arlington state in june of . went to texas a&m, i think starting in january of . i graduated from texas a&m in june of . on june , i went to work for bell helicopter. these are just approximate dates. i think they are just about right, but i am not right sure. if you need it, i can give you the exact dates. mr. liebeler. this is all right. what kind of work do you do for bell helicopter? mr. krystinik. i am a research engineer. i work in the research group. mr. liebeler. your work relates to helicopters and their design? mr. krystinik. actually right now; no. right now, i am working on what i think the company could classify as a flying machine. is that adequate? mr. liebeler. yes. when were you born? mr. krystinik. august , . mr. liebeler. are you presently married? mr. krystinik. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. do you have any children? mr. krystinik. yes; i have three. mr. liebeler. do you know michael paine? mr. krystinik. yes; i do. mr. liebeler. when did you meet him, approximately? and under what circumstances? mr. krystinik. approximately in june of , if i remember correctly. i was assigned to the research group on a temporary assignment, and at the research laboratory i met michael and worked with him then off and on up through now. mr. liebeler. you are working with him now? mr. krystinik. yes. mr. liebeler. did there come a time when you met lee harvey oswald? mr. krystinik. yes; i did. mr. liebeler. would you tell us about that? mr. krystinik. i went to a meeting of the american civil liberties union on the campus of smu. i don't remember the date, except i do remember it was the night after mr. stevenson's unhappy visit to dallas when the lady, i believe, swatted him with a placard. mr. liebeler. that was sometime in october of ? mr. krystinik. yes; it was october of . oswald was at the meeting, and michael introduced me to him. he had told me about the man before. mr. liebeler. what had michael paine told you about oswald? mr. krystinik. i mean told me that at the time there was a russian lady living with his wife ruth and that just exactly, i can't remember his exact words, but there was this fellow who was an ex-marine who had defected to russia. i can remember that he told me that, that he defected to russia, and the fellow decided it wasn't for him and he came back to the united states. and was, in general, a misfit and not capable of holding a good job; generally dissatisfied, and didn't accept the responsibilities for his family, and michael's wife had taken marina to help her for the time being. that was the reference made to him prior to having met him. mr. liebeler. to the best of your recollection, is that all michael paine told you about oswald? mr. krystinik. at that particular time we discussed him--during that period of time michael was eating supper with us on an average of once a week, and we discussed the man as being odd, or at least a little different. michael said he couldn't understand the man exactly. he commented that he shirked or ran from responsibilities. as long as he had money and had a job, he was willing to stay around his family and support them, but when he lost a job and didn't have the money, he apparently took off. i can remember him telling me that about him, and when i met him at selecman hall, i didn't feel overly happy to meet the man, or that i had made an acquaintance of value. they were there before my wife and i came. as we walked in and sat down, oswald was there, and it didn't occur to me then that he might be the man. prior to the meeting starting, he introduced me to him. michael, i am referring to--michael introduced me. i need to keep my chain more correct, straight. michael introduced me to lee oswald. as the meeting started, about that time--before the meeting first there was a little bit of talk. i don't remember what the chairman of the meeting said prior to the film starting. they showed a film about a senator or congressman or legislator, some form of public servant who was running for reelection in washington state, and the far right people wanted him out in a campaign, stating that his wife had connections with the communist party, and apparently she had had connections during her college days but had severed relations with the party and had given evidence to the fbi and an investigating team and apparently was clean at the time, or had no connection with the party at the time. and they showed in a film how the far right or an extremist movement could greatly damage a citizen that was of value to the united states. that was the essence of the film. after the film there was discussion about the civil liberties and about the film in general and about the movement in the south and the integration movement and the talk concerning general walker. the first notice i made of oswald is when he stood up and made a remark about general walker in reference to him not only being anti-catholic but anti-semitic in regard to his comments about the pope. then he made further comments that a night or two nights before he had been at the general walker meeting here in dallas. that was my first real notice of him. mr. liebeler. oswald said to the assembled group at that time that he had been to a meeting days prior at which general walker was present? mr. krystinik. i think it was days prior. mr. liebeler. that meeting would have been just the night before mr. stevenson came to dallas? mr. krystinik. yes, sir; i think, or it could have been the same night. i don't remember the exact date. mr. liebeler. what did oswald say about general walker? mr. krystinik. that was it. that was his comment about walker, and it struck me at the time. i mean my ears perked up when he said walker was anti-catholic in reference to his comments about the pope. i can quote that. that is exact. i am catholic and i wanted to hear what he said. he didn't say what general walker had said. mr. liebeler. did he indicate any hostility toward general walker either by words or by his deeds? mr. krystinik. at the time it seemed like michael had commented to me prior that the man was a marxist, and i have never met anyone before that i had known to be a communist or a marxist or leninist or red, and i was interested mainly to see what the man looked like, how he thought and what he felt. it seemed to me, in watching and listening to him, that rather than being violently against general walker, he was stirring in dirty thoughts that you shouldn't like general walker. he didn't say general walker is a bad guy. he just made comments that general walker is anti-semitic and anti-catholic, and he was spreading a little seed of thought. that was the way it impressed me. mr. liebeler. you didn't get the feeling that oswald had any particular violent thoughts towards general walker? mr. krystinik. i didn't at this time. i had no idea he was violent until i heard on the radio he had shot the president. mr. liebeler. did anybody respond to oswald's remarks about general walker? mr. krystinik. there were other people that discussed it, and then they discussed the bad display the people from the far right had put on when mr. stevenson was in dallas, and it was regrettable that extremists would act like that. but any exact comment about general walker i really don't remember. mr. liebeler. did oswald say anything about this stevenson affair? mr. krystinik. i couldn't say. i don't really remember. mr. liebeler. did he tell you that he had been at the meeting at which stevenson had had his difficulty? mr. krystinik. no, sir; he didn't tell me that. he told me, i think just me he had mentioned, if i remember exactly, he had mentioned to michael and said, "i was there," in reference to the meeting of the general walker group. mr. liebeler. are the remarks that you have told us about, the only remarks that oswald made to the entire group that evening? mr. krystinik. the only ones i can remember and swear that i know was the one in reference to general walker not only being anti-semitic but anti-catholic and in regard to his comment about the pope. mr. liebeler. did oswald comment on the john birch society as well as general walker? mr. krystinik. i know there was mention about him in the group. the group commented on the john birch society, and i don't remember exactly whether oswald commented on them, too. i would like to be of help to you, but i don't remember. mr. liebeler. just give us the best recollection you have. mr. krystinik. that is it so far. mr. liebeler. how did oswald impress you when he stepped up and addressed the group? did he impress you as being articulate, intelligent, or was he not that way? mr. krystinik. at that particular time he just made the one statement. after the meeting, i talked to him for about minutes primarily about economics. mr. liebeler. was anyone there besides you and oswald? mr. krystinik. yes, sir; there was a mr. byrd helligas. mr. liebeler. did he take part in the conversation with you and oswald? mr. krystinik. yes; a little bit, to the best of my memory. oswald was the fellow that impressed me, and i was paying attention to what he was saying, and i am afraid that mr. helligas didn't make an impression on me. i don't remember what he said, except he did enter into the conversation at different times. i am afraid most of my attention was directed to oswald. the hair was up on the back of my neck. i was irritated by the man a little. not real bad, but he bothered me some. mr. liebeler. was it what he said that bothered you, or was it his attitude? mr. krystinik. attitude more than exactly what he said. mr. liebeler. what was his attitude? mr. krystinik. well, the attitude that i felt was that he was talking down to me. i felt like he was. that he was better than i was, to a certain degree, and he acted as if he had complete command of the argument and was on top all the time. i felt that a couple of different spots in the argument i had him practically beaten and he wouldn't accept my argument. he turned his back and would go down a different avenue. mr. liebeler. he figuratively turned his back? mr. krystinik. yes, sir; that is it. mr. liebeler. reconstruct for us, as best you can, at this point, the discussion that you and oswald had. tell us as best you can recall what he said and what you said and what the argument was about. mr. krystinik. well, after the meeting was over we went back to the back where they had coffee. i believe they had doughnuts, i am not sure, but they had a table of refreshments, at least, and i am sure there was coffee. i wasn't interested in the coffee. michael, my wife, and oswald, and i, walked to the back of the room together. i approached oswald and commented to him that michael had told me about his political background a little bit, and i understood that he had been to russia. i asked him what he felt communism had to offer that was better than he could find in the united states. he kind of shrugged his shoulders and didn't make any particular comment then. i forget exactly the trend of talk at that particular moment, but as we talked for just a couple of minutes, or at any rate as we talked, i told him i had met his wife at the paine's over in irving and that he had a beautiful little girl, he should be real proud of them. and he commented, "they are nice." and that was to let it go at that. i forget, or i do forget now about exactly what the next few comments were. we did start talking about communism versus capitalism. he said that in capitalism the employer exploits the worker. i asked him just what he meant by exploiting. he said he takes a man's labors and makes a profit from them without actually putting in any effort of his own. i said that wasn't true. i considered myself to be a capitalist, or at least to be a firm believer in the capitalistic system. at the present time i had an employer and he paid me a fair salary and i was real glad to work for him for the salary i got. he commented that my employer was taking my efforts without putting in any efforts and was reaping a profit from my efforts, and he wanted to know if i thought that was fair or not? and i said that i was happy. i am satisfied with what i have, and i feel it is fair, and i used an analogy that in turn i am an employer. i have two fellows who work for me building patterns for which i pay them $ an hour and they are tickled to get the $ an hour. they are real glad to get it. and that i make $ an hour off of their efforts. my profit is $ an hour, and that i bought the machinery, i bought the material. i have gone out and hunted up the work, and the $ an hour from each of those two fellows is my wage for going out and getting the work, and my wage is comparable to my investment. he said, you are exploiting labor. you are not doing any work. and he commented then, well, that is all right for you. in your society it is not a crime to exploit the worker. he didn't say, "to exploit the worker." he said, "in your society it is not a crime." he was referring to exploitation of the worker, supposedly. mr. liebeler. go ahead. mr. krystinik. that is really about all i remember from the conversation itself. oh, wait a minute, we did talk about freedom. i asked him what about the freedom in russia. and he said, "well, they don't have as much actual freedom." i have forgotten what he said exactly in reference to where they didn't have the freedom. we were talking about actual civil liberties themselves in the united states versus russia. he said the united states by far has more civil liberties. i said, what do you think about the movement in the south in reference to mr. kennedy? and he said he thinks that kennedy is doing a real fine job, a real good job, i have forgotten. mr. liebeler. so far as civil rights were concerned? mr. krystinik. yes, sir. that was the only comment that was made in reference to president kennedy. i forget whether that was the only time he expressed any emotion, and i have forgotten the exact words, he is doing a real fine job, or very fine job. i can't remember exactly what he said. he impressed me as having a lot of big words, and my immediate impression was he was fairly well read, but talking with michael later and recalling the conversation later, it was pointed out, michael brought it to my attention, and after i think about it i agree with michael, that he had available to him a lot of two-bit vocabulary words, but not necessarily correctly used. this was a later impression, but the immediate argument, i was interested in what he was saying rather than how he was saying it and the way he had gone about saying it. mr. liebeler. you were particularly impressed, however, by the emphasis that oswald placed on his remark that president kennedy was doing a good job as far as civil rights were concerned? mr. krystinik. at the immediate time i wasn't particularly impressed. after the president was murdered, i felt that there was at least an emphasis of note, if not connected. i do remember him saying, him placing emphasis on the way he said it. mr. liebeler. and the impression you received of his attitude toward president kennedy was one of approval and one of favor? mr. krystinik. i would say yes. i don't know about president kennedy in general, how he felt, but in reference to the civil rights issue, the impression i had was that he was favorably impressed by mr. kennedy. mr. liebeler. did oswald express his attitude toward any other government official, during the course of his conversation with you? mr. krystinik. i can't really remember. i have heard michael paine comment that oswald had at one time written a letter and left it laying around the house, and that his wife, ruth, had found this letter. it was in the typewriter. i can't remember exactly the details, but that he had referred to the notorious fbi. apparently he didn't care for the fbi. mr. liebeler. did michael tell you that before or after the assassination? mr. krystinik. it was after. mr. liebeler. it was after? mr. krystinik. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. prior to the time of the assassination, however, you had no feeling that oswald had any particular hostility toward any government official or toward the government in general? would that be a fair statement? mr. krystinik. i can't really say because i don't know the exact time sequence. after a little time is passed, it is hard to pin it down. michael and i discussed the man at length after the assassination, and we talked about him a whole lot, so i don't really know whether it was before or after, but i now feel that he was very definitely against all enforcement people in general, and i don't know exactly when this impression came to me. but if i didn't already have this impression beforehand, i certainly had it afterwards. i do know that beforehand, that he didn't get along with his employers and his fellow workers, or at least his employers, and he wasn't able to keep a job, and he didn't have respect for his employers, and this might possibly extend to law enforcement officials. mr. liebeler. do you feel that oswald was, in general resentful of authority? there was resentment of his employers? mr. krystinik. according to michael, talking to him, we didn't talk about specifics, it was strictly generalities. it was minutes that i talked to him, or minutes or so that i talked to him. mr. liebeler. is this meeting that you had with oswald in the aclu, the only meeting you ever had with oswald? mr. krystinik. that was the only time i saw him up until i saw him on television. mr. liebeler. and your impressions are based upon your conversation with him during that time at the aclu meeting? mr. krystinik. based on that and what michael and i have discussed in reference to him. mr. liebeler. in the course of the conversation with oswald at the aclu meeting, did he tell you that he was a marxist? mr. krystinik. yes. it seems to me that i commented to him that, "you are a communist and i am a capitalist," and i can't remember exactly what it was, but he corrected me and he said, "i am a marxist." when i addressed him as a communist, he said, "i am a marxist." mr. liebeler. he corrected you then when you said he was a communist and indicated he was not a communist? mr. krystinik. yes. mr. liebeler. did you ask him what the difference was between those theories? mr. krystinik. no; i don't remember having asked him that. mr. liebeler. and he didn't elaborate on that? mr. krystinik. no. mr. liebeler. did oswald tell you---- mr. krystinik. oh, excuse me, there was one other thing that i, at the time when he commented on the capitalistic system exploiting the worker, i came back at him with the idea, you mean to tell me in russia they don't exploit, that the state doesn't exploit the worker, and he stated that it is worse than here. he did say that. mr. liebeler. that the exploitation of the worker was worse in russia than it is in the united states? mr. krystinik. and the state exploited the worker. mr. liebeler. did he indicate to you any desire to return to the soviet union? mr. krystinik. no, sir. mr. liebeler. did he indicate any desire to go to any other country? mr. krystinik. to me; no. mr. liebeler. did you know at the time you talked to oswald that he had been active in the fair play for cuba? mr. krystinik. no, sir; i never heard of the organization until i read about it in the dallas morning news in reference to oswald. mr. liebeler. did oswald tell you he was a member of any marxist or communist group? mr. krystinik. no. his only comment was that, "i am a marxist." mr. liebeler. did you have any impression as to whether he was a member of any group, marxist or communist group? mr. krystinik. in reference to what michael had told me that he defected to russia and that he claimed himself as being a marxist, now i am afraid that in my mind i felt he was a communist or a red, and my immediate impressions were that even though he had nothing to offer me with which to place trust in him, i didn't trust him and kind of considered him, i guess i looked at him really like someone at a dog that might bite. i disliked the man. i disliked him without him giving me personally an actual reason. i disliked him before i met him on the basis of conversation with michael. i disliked him when i met him in that i felt he was talking down to me and felt he was somewhat better than i was. he acted as he felt he had complete command of the conversation, was leading it, and was controlling what was going to be said, and i like to talk too. we talked back and forth, but rather than a pleasant discussion, it was more of an argument. mr. liebeler. you got no impression at any time during the course of your meeting with oswald that he was an actual member of any communist or marxist group? mr. krystinik. i felt that he was, but that was only by saying, "i am a marxist." to me, that categorized him. but as to any specific organization, i had no impression that he belonged to any specific group. mr. liebeler. did oswald display any anger to you during the course of your conversation with him? mr. krystinik. i can't remember, really. i don't think so. mr. liebeler. have you now told us, to the best of your recollection, the entire conversation that occurred between you and oswald on that occasion? mr. krystinik. only to the best of my recollection. i am sure that we talked more. mr. liebeler. did he mention anything to you about having been in the marines? mr. krystinik. he didn't. michael had told me previously that he had been in the marines. mr. liebeler. had michael told you that oswald received an undesirable discharge from the marine corps? mr. krystinik. yes. mr. liebeler. but you didn't have any discussion about that with oswald? mr. krystinik. no. mr. liebeler. did you have any discussion with oswald about his impressions while he was in the soviet union? mr. krystinik. i did ask him to tell me about russia, but then the conversation diverged back into the economic end of the capitalism versus communism. he commented that the work hours were long and the pay wasn't particularly good. that was about the main thing. it was just that long in reference to the soviet union and we were back to capitalism. he didn't seem to care to talk particularly about it. mr. liebeler. his remarks about the pay and working conditions in the soviet union were a general remark? mr. krystinik. just general. mr. liebeler. he didn't tell you how much he was paid or what kind of job he had? mr. krystinik. well, he didn't. michael, i believe, told me afterwards, if i remember correctly, that he was doing something in an electronic firm or electrical industry. mr. liebeler. but oswald himself told you nothing about his stay in the soviet union other than you have already told us? mr. krystinik. basically. mr. liebeler. what happened after the meeting was over? mr. krystinik. as we were going out, i commented to michael that we were going to have to set this boy up in business and convert him. and he said that the only thing he approached humor, he commented, "the money might corrupt me." i can remember that as a quote. mr. liebeler. that is what oswald said? mr. krystinik. that is what oswald said. mr. liebeler. he said that in a joking manner? mr. krystinik. in a joking manner. mr. liebeler. other than that, however, oswald did not indicate any particular sense of humor to you? mr. krystinik. no humor. he indicated no violence. he impressed me as being cold. you can talk to some people and say they are warm and sincere. he impressed me as being cold and stereotyped. he had fixed notions in his head, and i had the impression he had his mind made up regardless of how good an argument you presented. his mind was made up that he was not going to admit, regardless of how strong it was. mr. liebeler. did you subsequently discuss with michael paine your argument with oswald? mr. krystinik. yes; i did. mr. liebeler. prior to the assassination? mr. krystinik. prior to the assassination. mr. liebeler. would you tell us generally what you said and what michael said? mr. krystinik. michael said that he knew of what was coming, so he went on off and talked with my wife and with another fellow. there was no point in him sticking around. he knew oswald had a closed mind. he didn't say, "closed mind." michael is a rather unusual type of person. he is careful not to overly, severely criticize anyone or make unkind comments about other people, even though he himself has sensitive emotions and feels--you have talked with him. i guess you have the same impression. mr. liebeler. is that all that you and michael said about your (conversation) discussion with oswald? mr. krystinik. with reference to this conversation, i related to him just about what oswald had said to me. it wasn't exactly in detail. i didn't talk about him, as long about the actual conversation, as i have talked to you. he said that he knew how it was going to go and there wasn't any point in his staying around. he knew how oswald would react. mr. liebeler. he indicated to you that he had had previous similar experiences? mr. krystinik. yes. mr. liebeler. did he tell you about this in specific detail? mr. krystinik. only that he argued with him and the man loved to talk economics, and that at first he was very, very interesting to talk to, but that once the man had said all that he wanted to, or all that he was particularly interested in, it was then a repeat, and that it was always all locked in in a small little body, that he didn't particularly have any area for growth, that he had a certain fixed image in his mind, and was reluctant to have it improved or changed. mr. liebeler. did michael indicate to you that oswald received any periodicals or literature concerning economic or social and political questions of the time that you discussed? mr. krystinik. prior to the assassination, no, he didn't. i am trying to--i forget now exactly--i have read the newspapers and i heard so darn much about it on the radio and television, it is actually hard to strain out exactly who said what. i know that he had gotten communist literature, and i can't remember whether it was from michael or from the news media that i heard this. mr. liebeler. can you recall any other discussions between michael paine and yourself, concerning lee oswald that occurred prior to the assassination? mr. krystinik. no, sir; not really. mr. liebeler. the occasion that you met oswald at the aclu meeting was the only time at which you ever met oswald, is that correct? mr. krystinik. yes. mr. liebeler. you mentioned that you had met marina oswald and child prior to that time. mr. krystinik. yes; michael had bought an old blue--he had a french citroen automobile. at any rate, he had the two cars and he wanted me to drive either his car home or follow him home in my car. and he was taking the oldsmobile to irving and i followed him in my car and took him back to the research laboratory and picked up his citroen. at any rate, when i drove the car in, he went into the house and brought ruth out and marina. and all i remember is one little girl. i didn't see the baby. the little girl came out with her mother and ruth introduced me to marina. she impressed me at the time as very sweet and very polite. i spoke as slowly and as distinctly as i could to her in english, texan to be exact, and she turned to marina--marina turned to ruth and spoke to her in russian, and i asked ruth if i was talking too fast, and marina said i am talking too texan. at any rate, that was about it. i told her that she had a beautiful little girl and hoped that she would like the united states. and she commented that she did, that it was a wonderful country. that i can remember for sure. that impressed me, because it seems that where there is a possibility of a russian saying something nice, it is nice to have a compliment. at least i felt complimented. mr. liebeler. marina indicated that to you in english, is that correct? mr. krystinik. i can't remember whether it was the words, but that was the way i took it to be. it was my thinking, yes. mr. liebeler. did marina understand the remarks that you had made to her in english? mr. krystinik. apparently she followed the trend, but she turned to ruth for exact interpretation, and ruth told me that i wasn't talking too fast, just too texan. that was marina's comment. at first i was talking just to marina back and forth, and she said just a few words, and i asked her how old the child was, and if i remember exactly, or . i have forgotten. but one- or two-word answers, and i had no trouble at all understanding her up to that point. when ruth entered into the conversation, she turned and relied directly and totally upon ruth. i talked to her only about minutes in all. i talked with her while ruth was looking at the car with michael. i mean i talked to her rather than with her. mr. liebeler. this was after marina had given birth to the second child. is that correct? mr. krystinik. yes; seemed like only a week or weeks. mr. liebeler. was there any discussion of lee oswald at that time? mr. krystinik. no, sir; his name wasn't mentioned. i hadn't met him at that time. mr. liebeler. have you ever met lyman paine? that would be michael's father. did you ever discuss lyman paine with michael? mr. krystinik. only once. we talked about him a couple of times, but one time michael, just prior to michael buying the land in irving for his future shop. mr. liebeler. can you tell us approximately when that was? mr. krystinik. no, sir; i can't remember, but it was about a week prior to his buying the land. mr. liebeler. i see. mr. krystinik. i can fix the time. he had commented that he had been invited by his father to the west coast for the weekend. i know that the previous time michael had been saving his money to buy this land, and i feel that he didn't have enough money at the time, and he flew out on a friday evening, if i remember correctly, and flew back to dallas early monday morning, and he was sleepy and tired at work that day. we talked and i asked him if he had a nice time visiting with his father, and he commented that he had a nice time and that his father had a very nice party. and it seemed this was somewhat of an international party. he talked about this negress that he had met who was extremely interesting. her husband had written a book on labor, and he talked mainly about this woman and the conversation he had with her. mr. liebeler. this conversation occurred at a party that lyman paine had given in los angeles is that correct? mr. krystinik. yes; that's right. he didn't tell me in detail why he was particularly interested. he said she was a very interesting person, and that he had talked to a group of other people, several other people. he said that there was a man from west or east germany, and i remember he said that there were some chinese people there, and i don't remember whether they were or were not from the communist bloc. i don't remember that. but he commented on several other people that were, in my book, i would say they were each one an extremist of some form or other at the time--at the time that he was telling me about them. they were at least very different than you would meet on the street. that doesn't make them bad, don't misunderstand me. that was the impression i had. he didn't say they were communist or bad people or anything like that. they were just very, very different. mr. liebeler. did michael indicate to you that his father had been active in the affairs of the communist party? mr. krystinik. no; he didn't. i asked him what his father did, and he said he was an architect, and that was the comment. it seemed there was some mention made about a communist or a fellow that had communistic interests being at the party, and i asked him what kind of people does your father associate with. he said he didn't know really what his father does. that was his comment. he didn't know what his father does, that he really knows that he is an architect and that is about it. that was michael's comment. mr. liebeler. did you ask him what kind of a man his father was? mr. krystinik. no, sir; not really. i talked to him about it very little, and i do know that just shortly after he came back from los angeles, michael did buy this plot of land and he did pay cash, $ , , and i had the impression that prior to his going to los angeles he didn't have the money. i had that impression because he commented that there was time for him to pay or give--we were talking about church donations during the coffee break one day shortly after that, and he commented that he was really going to have to do something about his bank account, it was time to pay his pledge dues at the unitarian church and he didn't have the money in the bank, and or so weeks later he had $ , , for a plot of land, so i am assuming, i am not a detective, that he had gotten the money from his father or from art young, who is his stepfather. one of those two persons, he had gotten the money. he had, if i remember correctly, art young was in texas, so one of these two places he had gotten the money. those are the impressions i had, that he had gotten it from his father. mr. liebeler. did you have any discussion about this with michael? mr. krystinik. no, sir; i didn't. i want to make it clear that i don't know. these are impressions that i had. mr. liebeler. did michael tell you that he went to los angeles for the purpose of visiting his father? mr. krystinik. no, sir; he didn't state it in that way. he said that his father offered to pay for the plane ticket to the west coast, and he thought it was a wonderful opportunity to visit his father, and this was the discussion prior to his leaving. mr. liebeler. he was not sent to the west coast on business for bell helicopter? mr. krystinik. no, sir; he has been sent to pennsylvania on bell helicopter business. i am aware of that. mr. liebeler. but so far as you know, he was not sent to los angeles on bell helicopter business? mr. krystinik. no, sir; so far as i feel that if he had, that he would have told me. mr. liebeler. you are a friend of michael paine's? mr. krystinik. i would like to consider myself a friend of his, and by my telling you things, i feel that i am still a friend of his. i think that he is--i feel that he has absolutely nothing to hide, and in all honesty, i don't feel that what i tell you can in any way hurt him, and if it would hurt him, he has been going--he has been doing something he shouldn't have been doing, and if he has, why we need to know about it, because that is just the way i feel. i don't feel like i am squealing on him. mr. liebeler. did michael tell you that his father had called him shortly after the assassination? mr. krystinik. no, sir; he didn't. mr. liebeler. as far as you know, the last contact michael had with his father is when he went to los angeles shortly prior to the time he bought this tract in irving? mr. krystinik. yes, sir; that is the last comment he made to me. mr. liebeler. where were you when you learned that fact that the president had been shot? mr. krystinik. at the research laboratory. we were listening to the radio. we had listened to the president's speech from the texas hotel parking lot in fort worth. i think that almost every one at the laboratory honestly really liked president kennedy and was all for him. we were much interested in him whenever he did make a speech. i believe during working hours we always listened to his speech, and we were listening to the radio at the time. when the first report came in, they had been talking about the motorcade through downtown dallas, and switched to the market hall, and the commentator was talking from the market hall, and the first comment there, was a report that there was shots fired at the president. and he didn't say he had been hit. then there was some discussion on the radio, and then it came through, this is official that the president of the united states has been fired at by an assassin or an attempted assassination. and in a little while it came through he had been hit and taken to parkland hospital, and the reports were that he and governor connally were both hit and both considered to be in serious condition. and it came through that they were both alive but both in extremely critical condition. and finally, i think it was about an hour later the report came through the president had expired. and michael exhibited real outward emotion. he had his back turned and his head was down slightly and he really cried. and i don't feel that michael is the type that could make crocodile tears in seriousness. mr. liebeler. was michael with you when you first heard of the fact that the president had been fired at? mr. krystinik. yes, sir; we were all in the lab in the office. mr. liebeler. did you eat lunch with michael that day? mr. krystinik. no, sir; i didn't. i don't think i did. i do eat with him quite often off and on. most of the time i stay at the lab and drink my can of metrecal. mr. liebeler. to the best of your knowledge, you did not eat with michael? mr. krystinik. i recall i did not that day, no. mr. liebeler. but also to the best of your recollection, you were both in the lab? mr. krystinik. we were both in the office portion of the lab. michael has a stereo hi-fi that he brought to the lab for use by all of us. mr. liebeler. you were there at that time when you first heard that the president had been fired at? mr. krystinik. and immediately when the first report came in that the president had been fired at, three or four of us, i forget them, myself, michael paine, ken sambell, and clarke benham all gathered right around the radio like a bunch of ticks and stayed there. mr. liebeler. was mr. noel there? mr. krystinik. dave noel, yes; i believe he was. i believe dave was the one that went to dinner with michael, if i am correct. mr. liebeler. he went to lunch with michael? mr. krystinik. yes. mr. liebeler. as best you can recall, you had not heard anything about the attempted assassination prior to the time michael and dave returned from lunch? mr. krystinik. no; we were listening on the radio and heard the report. as far as being shot at, i can't remember exactly whether michael was there when the very, very first report came in, but he was there when the report came in. he was there when the report came in that he had died. mr. liebeler. did you and michael have any conversations about the assassination? mr. krystinik. yes; we did. mr. liebeler. tell us to the best of your recollection what he said? mr. krystinik. i commented, "who in the blue-eyed world would do a thing like that?" and if i remember right, michael didn't make any immediate comment at all about the assassination other than what a terrible thing and what in the world could he gain. we commented, first immediate impression was that possibly the john birch people would have had a grievance against him, possibly, and we talked about that. and michael said he didn't know. he wouldn't expect that the communists would do it, yet at the same time he wouldn't expect the john birch people to do it and wouldn't know. then the first report came through that he had been fired at from elm and houston streets in that area, and at that time michael commented that, well, that is right close to the texas school book depository. i did remember prior to the assassination michael telling me that oswald had finally gotten a job and he was working at the texas school book depository, and at that particular time right then, i said, "you don't think it could be oswald?" and he said, "no, it couldn't be him." at any rate, he had the same impression i had, that none of us could really believe it was a person they had met. it was such a big thing that a person doesn't imagine himself having met a person that could do such an act. mr. liebeler. your first discussion with michael on the question of oswald's possible involvement in the assassination came after you had learned that the shots were fired in the vicinity of elm and houston near the texas school book depository? mr. krystinik. yes; he commented about elm and houston, and he said that is where the texas school book depository is, and the next comment was i commented, "well isn't that where oswald works?" and he says, "that is where he works." and i said, "do you think it could be him?" and he said, "no; he doesn't see any way in the world it could have been him." but it wasn't but just a little bit---- mr. liebeler. let me interrupt you for a moment. you were the first one to mention oswald's name in connection with the assassination between you and michael paine, is that correct? mr. krystinik. yes, sir; everyone was standing around. mr. liebeler. why did you think of oswald's name in connection with the assassination? mr. krystinik. i guess mainly because the first time i had heard of the texas book depository was, michael told me oswald had gotten a job there. and when he said texas book, that was perhaps the second time i had ever heard the name. i don't know that i actually knew they had one. and when he said texas book depository, it immediately rang right back. and i said, "that's where oswald works." and i didn't think of oswald shooting the president at that time. i just commented that was where he works. and then my next comment, "you don't think it could be him?" and he said, "no; of course not, it wouldn't be him." and it wasn't but just a little while later that we heard that officer tippit had been shot, and it wasn't very long after that that it came through that the oswald fellow had been captured, had had a pistol with him, and michael used some expression, i have forgotten exactly what the expression was, and then he said, "the stupid," something, i have forgotten. it wasn't a complimentary thing. he said, "he is not even supposed to have a gun." and that i can quote, "he is not even supposed to have a gun." or, "not even supposed to own a gun," i have forgotten. we talked about it a little bit more, about how or why or what would the reasons be behind, that he would have absolutely nothing to gain, he could hurt himself and the nation, but couldn't gain anything personal, and we discussed it. that immediately ruled out the john birch, but why would the communists want him dead, and michael couldn't imagine whether it was a plot or a rash action by the man himself. he didn't know which it could be. he said he didn't know. and he called home then to ruth. mr. liebeler. before we get into that, you specifically remember that michael said that oswald was not even supposed to have a gun? mr. krystinik. yes, sir; i remember that. mr. liebeler. do you remember those exact words? mr. krystinik. yes. he could have said, "oswald doesn't own a gun." that could be. that could be. the exact thing is cloudy a little bit. mr. liebeler. what is your best recollection on the point? mr. krystinik. my best recollection is, "he is not supposed to have a gun," or something in that vicinity. that is the best i remember right now. mr. liebeler. did you have the impression---- mr. krystinik. now that you mentioned to me that he isn't supposed to own that gun, it is possible that he did say that, but the way i remember is that he said "he is not supposed to have a gun." mr. liebeler. did you get the impression at that time that michael had any foreknowledge of oswald's possible involvement? mr. krystinik. none at all. i felt it hit him as a big shock. mr. liebeler. now you said that you were the first one to mention oswald's name? mr. krystinik. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. the basic reason you mentioned it was because you had associated his name with the texas school book depository? mr. krystinik. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. is there any other reason why you thought of oswald in connection with the assassination? mr. krystinik. oh, it might possibly be; i can't really tell you, it was all just everything was going that way, and it was a trying thing of oppression and worry at that particular time. it may be that he is the only communist i have ever been introduced to, that i knew was possibly a communist or marxist, or whatever they are, and he was the only villain i could think of at the time, possibly. and i didn't really feel that he was a villain. i didn't really feel it was him, but he was the only person i knew connected with the communist party, and if the communist party should be associated with something, his was the name that came to my mind, possibly. i feel the correlation came through the fact that michael had told me about him getting a job at the texas school depository, and when i heard the name again, i feel that was the correlation that brought his name to my mind. a lot of these things, i don't know where or how they come to mind. mr. liebeler. after you heard that oswald had been apprehended in connection with the slaying of officer tippit, did you and michael paine then associate oswald with the assassination of the president? mr. krystinik. i did, and i feel that michael did also. mr. liebeler. what did you and michael say to each other just very shortly after the word had come through? mr. krystinik. i can't really remember. michael said that he felt that he should be going home, that ruth and marina are both going to be muchly upset and there was going to be people at the house asking questions, and he felt he should be there to answer them. he did say, if i can answer, "i feel i should be there." mr. liebeler. he said that prior to the time that oswald had been publicly connected with the assassination, is that correct? mr. krystinik. i just really don't know. prior to oswald's being apprehended, there was a description of the man on the radio, if i remember correctly, and the shot had been--it had been reported that--can we go back just a little bit? mr. liebeler. sure. mr. krystinik. more of this is coming back. mr. liebeler. surely. mr. krystinik. at the time the radio had commented that the shots had come from the vicinity of the texas school book depository, and they put out a description of a young man. after i had asked michael about the possibility of oswald, well, he commented that that is where oswald works. then they put out the description of the young man, and i said that fits him pretty good, to the best of my memory. you don't think it could have been him? they did put out the description prior to his arrest and prior to his having shot officer tippit. mr. liebeler. the description seemed to fit oswald? mr. krystinik. the description seemed to fit oswald, and they did at that time, if i remember, comment on him being about years old. i think that was the age they gave, weighing about pounds, and being sandy head, and if i remember right, they said a fair complexion. i don't remember that part of it. and shortly, just a little while after that, they commented on officer tippit having been shot and oswald having been arrested in the texas theatre. mr. liebeler. did you discuss with michael the possibility that the description given fitted oswald? mr. krystinik. yes; i did. i said it sounds like him. do you think we should call the fbi. and he said, "let's wait a little bit." and at that particular time he said that he didn't see any way in the world it could be oswald at all. besides, the man was in oak cliff, and oswald was--works in the school book depository. they commented on the radio there was a man fitting this description and having shot officer tippet in oak cliff, and being shot. they commented on tippit, and they were after him, and it was after they arrested him in the oak cliff theatre. mr. liebeler. the description of this individual was given out after officer tippit had been shot, is that correct? mr. krystinik. it seems that someone had seen him shoot officer tippit. i don't remember that for sure, the description was on the radio. mr. liebeler. what did michael say when you suggested that he call the fbi? mr. krystinik. he said, "if it is him, there is nothing they could do right now. it seems they are right after him. he didn't see in any way in the world it could be him. he didn't believe that it could be him." and then just a little bit after that, i can't remember time spans, that was a pretty bad day--when i first heard about it having been oswald, to the best of my recollection, the thing he said was that, "he is not even supposed to have a gun." he may have been meaning to the best of his knowledge, he didn't know that he owned a gun. that would have been what he meant. mr. liebeler. did it seem strange to you at the time that michael didn't want to advise the fbi? mr. krystinik. no; it didn't at all. we had talked about--michael is a little, i couldn't call him an odd duck, but he is very different. he doesn't like to intrude on anyone's personal privacy at all, i mean, the least little bit. i can be making a telephone conversation to my wife or to the company on business, and he is very careful not to come into the office, and he will see me on the telephone and turn around and go back. he is very careful to afford to other people all the privacy that he can. at the same time, we commented before when i had seen a fellow taking movies of the chance vought fau crusader from the road above a railroad embankment just north of the naval air station, of the and i was a little bit wrangled about it and accosted the man did he--if he couldn't read signs, that that was an--that was a united states government reservation and no photographs permitted, and he said he was recording the historical information of the aircraft for the future. it seems that no one is actually doing this and he was claiming this date and time that the fau was a fairly new airplane. and i don't know that taking that picture would hurt. there have been pictures of it in aviation week. it still wrangled me that someone would be taking pictures when there were signs up saying not to, and i accosted him, and i got his name. and i felt that he was probably lying to me, and i got his license number of his car, also. the next day while they were discussing the situation at work, and michael said, regardless of the signs there, that he was standing in a public right-of-way, and anything that could be photographed from the public right-of-way he could technically, regardless of what the signs said on the fence. if it is something super secret, they should maintain a security check and faithfully check it out. i asked him if he thought i should go ahead and call the fbi or the security officer at the naval air station. he said, i could do what i wanted. he certainly wouldn't tell me not to. yet at the same time it was entirely possible that the guy was a nut and doing exactly what he said he was doing, and we might cause him a lot of inconvenience and a lot of unhappiness by hollering wolf when the man had done nothing wrong. he said it would be better had i gone ahead at the time and had him arrested on the spot. mr. liebeler. you think that michael's attitude toward calling the fbi in connection with oswald's involvement was similar to the attitude that you explained in the situation you have just described? mr. krystinik. yes; and at the same time it still is his attitude. a fellow ran into the back of his citroen and damaged it. and i said, "well, you got his name, serial, license number and so forth?" and he said, "no, the man said that he would pay for it." i said, "did you call the police in the event he sues you for a broken neck?" he said, "no, i take a man at his word." he exhibited that several times to assume him to be honest until you have good reason or absolute proof positive. he would have to see in his mind that the man had done it before he actually would bring forth civilly, because he would feel that the man was actually going to sue him before he would take measures to even protect himself. as it worked out, i don't know whether the man ever paid for fixing the back end of his car, because he drove it that way for a long time. mr. liebeler. have you talked to michael since he returned from washington? mr. krystinik. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. did you discuss the testimony that he gave the commission? mr. krystinik. only in that he said that he felt that he didn't give them anything that was news to them, that he said he told them about the same thing he told the fbi and other people that had talked to him. he felt that he hadn't earned his plane ticket. mr. liebeler. he didn't discuss any of the details of the testimony? mr. krystinik. no, sir; none of the details. at any rate, i did call the security officer and the naval air station in dallas, and as it worked out, the fellow had been working for himself--seems he is out every saturday and sunday and that he had been checked out and is apparently a nut, rather than a communist. mr. liebeler. can you think of anything else that you think the commission should know about in connection with the assassination? mr. krystinik. nothing in connection with the assassination. in connection with michael, i would almost stake my reputation on his apparent honesty. i feel he is as good, i think, in his heart as he is on the surface. mr. liebeler. you don't think he had anything to do with the events leading up to the assassination? mr. krystinik. i don't feel that he had anything to do with it. i think if he had been of a more suspicious nature, he could possibly have avoided the president being shot. he told me after the president was killed and after it had come out that the rifle had possibly been stored at his home, that he had moved in his garage some sort of heavy object about this long wrapped up in a blanket, and he had the impression when he moved it this was some sort of camping equipment, and that it was considerably heavier than camping equipment he had been dealing with, and it never occurred to him it might be a gun or rifle that had been broken down. mr. liebeler. would you indicate approximately how long the package was? mr. krystinik. he said something about like that [indicating]. mr. liebeler. how long would you say that was? mr. krystinik. looking at it, i would say or inches. maybe inches. mr. liebeler. [measuring]. the witness indicates a length of approximately inches. mr. krystinik. michael might have had his hands up or inches different from that. mr. liebeler. to the best of your recollection, michael indicated the length of about inches? mr. krystinik. yes. mr. liebeler. he told you that he did not suspect at any time prior to the assassination that this package contained a rifle, is that correct? mr. krystinik. that's correct. or a gun. he didn't state rifle in reference to the weapon. michael had commented briefly that he had never had a gun or would not have a gun in his house. he is opposed. i would assume he is opposed to killing men. i know he is opposed to killing animals, and he doesn't believe in violence at all. mr. liebeler. aside from this remark that you made about michael paine, is there anything else that you can think of that you would like to tell us in connection with either the assassination or michael paine at this point? mr. krystinik. nothing i can think of now. i have taken enough of your time. i can't really think of anything that is concrete from beginning to end that i feel would help you. i don't know of anything that is important. mr. liebeler. how well do you know ruth paine? mr. krystinik. we have been to her house once. we have been to the dallas dollar concert with he and ruth one time. we have had her at our house twice. actually i can't say that i know her real well. i feel that i know michael fairly well. mr. liebeler. you don't really know ruth well? well enough to make any judgment about her character? mr. krystinik. only when i have talked to her, i had an impression i have been talking to an extremely sincere and very warm person. i felt that if she had done something, she is of such a type she would say, "i did it." that is the impression i have about her. i don't know her well enough to make judgment upon her. i don't know michael well enough to judge him. all i know of him is the association i had with him at work and the little bit i have had with him in my home. i don't actually know what he does on his off time, but in my association with him at work and what i know of him at home, i have actually come to love him as much as i love my brother. mr. liebeler. based upon your knowledge of both of the paines, you have no reason to suspect them of any involvement of any kind in the assassination, do you? mr. krystinik. only as victims of a very cruel twist of fate, that is all i can say, and that they are in that position because of their charity. i think it is a vexatious, cruel reward for charity, to be associated with the people, or to harbor the wife of the assassin--i won't say harbor--i don't say she had anything to do with it. michael told me that oswald visited the paine residence on weekends. mr. liebeler. i don't have any more questions at this time. unless you have something else you want to add we shall terminate the questioning. thank you, mr. krystinik. let me indicate that the witness is willing to waive signature of the transcript, is that so? mr. krystinik. yes, sir. transcriber's notes: punctuation and spelling were made consistent when a predominant preference was found in this book; otherwise they were not changed. misspellings in quoted evidence not changed; misspellings that could be due to mispronunciations were not changed. some simple typographical errors were corrected. inconsistent hyphenation of compound words retained. ambiguous end-of-line hyphens retained. occasional uses of "mr." for "mrs." and of "mrs." for "mr." corrected. dubious repeated words, (e.g., "what took place by way of of conversation?") retained. several unbalanced quotation marks not remedied. occasional periods that should be question marks not changed. occasional periods that should be commas, and commas that should be periods, were changed only when they clearly had been misprinted (at the end of a paragraph or following a speaker's name in small-caps at the beginning of a line). some commas and semi-colons were printed so faintly that they appear to be periods or colons: some were found and corrected, but some almost certainly remain. the index and illustrated exhibits volumes of this series may not be available at project gutenberg. text uses "le gon" and "legon", possibly deliberately; not changed. text uses "door jamb", "doorjamb", "doorjam", "jamb", and "jam"; none changed. "exhibits introduced" lists exhibit no. on page , but it is on page . page : "the commission to investigate" was printed that way. page : "quite a field" was misprinted as "quiet"; changed here. page : "de mohrenschildt exhibit no. " was misprinted as "exhibt"; changed here. page : "yours sincerly," was printed that way in quoted material; not changed. page : "and your last name is" was misprinted as "you"; changed here. page : "have you seen him at any time" was misprinted as "see"; changed here. page : "who was at that stage a political" probably should be "apolitical". page : "banding about" possibly should be "bandying". page : "we were kidnapped from the germans" was misprinted as "kidnaped"; changed here. page : "you joined your husband here" was misprinted as "you"; changed here. page : "the husband would not take them to the hospital" was misprinted as "huband"; changed here. page : "see if they're any corrections" was printed that way; not changed. page : "assistant cameraman" was misprinted as "camerman"; changed here. page : "seemed to be person of" was printed that way; not changed. page : "i think they were located" was misprinted as "thing"; changed here. page : "one of the other of us" probably should be "or"; not changed. page : "and prior to " was printed with that date. page : one or more lines after "mr. mamantov. or way of government." appear to be missing from the testimony. page : "on that particular morning" was misprinted as "partciular"; changed here. page and elsewhere: "mamantov" occasionally was misprinted as "manantov"; all have been changed here. page : "i lived until in ventspils" probably should be " ". page : "always expressed what i would interpret" was misprinted as "expresed"; changed here. page : "when i was years old" is an unlikely age in this context. page : "was eventually expropriated" was misprinted as "eventally"; changed here. page : "ex-nephew" was printed as "exnephew"; changed here for consistency with other compound words beginning with "ex-". page : "and a shotgun with us, and to be able" was punctuated and capitalized that way. page : "or the use of any weapons or his right to have weapons when he was in russia?" is shown as dialog spoken by mr. de mohrenschildt, but probably was spoken by mr. jenner. page : "zitkoff" is spelled "jitkoff" elsewhere in this text. page : "four little kinds" probably should be "kids"; not changed. page : "yoico" should be "yaeko"; not changed. page : "so boldy" probably should be "boldly". page : "little japanese girl now, you now" probably should be "you know". page : the index referenced in footnote may not be available at project gutenberg. the other volume referenced in that footnote probably is volume iii, which is available at project gutenberg. page : "registered a false, positive" was printed with the comma in that position. page : "comittee" is misprint for "committee"; not changed. page : "a year. in the early winter" was printed that way. page : "that was too symmetrical" was misprinted as "two"; changed here. page : "i though it was" probably should be "thought". page : "commission exhibit " possibly should be " ". page : "yes; is seems to me" probably should be "it". page : "it made by heart leap" probably should be "my". page : "but i though it said" probably should be "thought". www.history-matters.com. transcriber's note: stylized "v", "y", and "z" symbols are denoted as =v=, =y=, and =z=. italicized words are denoted with _underscores_. investigation of the assassination of president john f. kennedy hearings before the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy pursuant to executive order , an executive order creating a commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of the late president john f. kennedy and the subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and s.j. res. , th congress, a concurrent resolution conferring upon the commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas _volume_ iii united states government printing office washington, d.c. u.s. government printing office, washington: for sale in complete sets by the superintendent of documents, u.s. government printing office washington, d.c., president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy chief justice earl warren, _chairman_ senator richard b. russell senator john sherman cooper representative hale boggs representative gerald r. ford mr. allen w. dulles mr. john j. mccloy j. lee rankin, _general counsel_ _assistant counsel_ francis w. h. adams joseph a. ball david w. belin william t. coleman, jr. melvin aron eisenberg burt w. griffin leon d. hubert, jr. albert e. jenner, jr. wesley j. liebeler norman redlich w. david slawson arlen specter samuel a. stern howard p. willens[a] [a] mr. willens also acted as liaison between the commission and the department of justice. _staff members_ phillip barson edward a. conroy john hart ely alfred goldberg murray j. laulicht arthur marmor richard m. mosk john j. o'brien stuart pollak alfredda scobey charles n. shaffer, jr. biographical information on the commissioners and the staff can be found in the commission's _report_. preface the testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume iii: ruth hyde paine, an acquaintance of lee harvey oswald and his wife; howard leslie brennan, who was present at the assassination scene; bonnie ray williams, harold norman, james jarman, jr., and roy sansom truly, texas school book depository employees; marrion l. baker, a dallas motorcycle officer who was present at the assassination scene; mrs. robert a. reid, who was in the texas school book depository building at the time of the assassination; luke mooney and eugene boone, dallas law enforcement officers who took part in the investigative effort in the texas school book depository building immediately following the assassination; patrolman m. n. mcdonald, who apprehended lee harvey oswald in the texas theatre; helen markham, william w. scoggins, barbara jeanette davis, and ted callaway, who were in the vicinity of the tippit crime scene; drs. charles james carrico and malcolm perry, who attended president kennedy at parkland hospital; robert a. frazier, a firearms identification expert with the federal bureau of investigation; ronald simmons, an expert in weapons evaluation with the u.s. army weapons systems division; cortlandt cunningham, a firearms identification expert with the federal bureau of investigation; and joseph d. nicol, a firearms identification expert with the bureau of criminal identification and investigation of the illinois department of public safety. contents page preface v testimony of-- ruth hyde paine (resumed) howard leslie brennan , , bonnie ray williams harold norman james jarman, jr roy sansom truly marrion l. baker mrs. robert a. reid luke mooney eugene boone m. n. mcdonald helen markham , william w. scoggins barbara jeanette davis ted callaway charles james carrico malcolm perry robert a. frazier ronald simmons cortlandt cunningham joseph d. nicol commission exhibits introduced exhibit no.: page - hearings before the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy _thursday, march , --afternoon session_ testimony of ruth hyde paine resumed the president's commission reconvened at : p.m. mr. jenner. may we proceed, mr. chairman? mr. mccloy. yes; we are all ready whenever you are. you are still under affirmation. mr. jenner. i was at the point of describing the driver's license application, but before i do that, mrs. paine, may i hand you the document again? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. it has been marked commission exhibit . you were making a comparison with the block printing on that document with like block printing that you testified yesterday had been written in your address book. i have forgotten the exhibit number, but in your address book which you have before you---- mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and the printing in your address book to which you were addressing yourself was what? mrs. paine. his printing of the place where he worked in april of . mr. jenner. and that is jaggars-chiles-stovall? mrs. paine. right. mr. jenner. you were comparing that printing which you saw him put in your address book with what? mrs. paine. the printing on this application for texas driver's license. mr. jenner. and any particular printing on that application? mrs. paine. was put in in pen. i do observe that the printing here uses a mixture of upper case and lower case letters, as does the printing in my phone book, most of it being block upper case. mr. jenner. the form and shape of the printing in both of the documents is---- mrs. paine. is similar. mr. jenner. similar. all right, thank you. mr. chairman, because of the point raised by representative ford with particular reference to the word "photographer" which, by the way, is misspelled, it is spelled "f-o-t-o-g-r-a-p-e-r," and things of that sort do occur as you have already noted in many of his writings, very bad misspellings. mr. mccloy. yes, his grammar seems to be better than this spelling. mr. jenner. yes. this form is an official form printed of the texas state license bureau entitled "application for texas driver's license," on the line provided for "name" there appears over "first name", "lee"; over "middle name", "harvey"; and "last name", "oswald." the second set of spaces, provisions for address, birth, and occupation. he gives as his address, west fifth street, irving, tex. was that the address of their home when you first became acquainted with them? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. is the address irving street familiar to you? mrs. paine. i think it is . mr. jenner. perhaps we will have to have it interpreted by someone else. it looks like a " " to me, but it may be a " ." this birthday, october , . the age last birthday , and then under "occupation" appears the word i have already related. sex, male; color of eyes, gray; weight, pounds; race the letter "c"; color of hair, brown; height, foot inches. mr. mccloy. were you about to comment? mrs. paine. i was interested in his comment on his race. mr. jenner. i assume c means caucasian. there are a series of questions, printed questions on the form, and he answered them, they are from to , as follows: "question no. " he answers in the negative, "have you ever held a texas license?" question no. . all these are in the negative. "have you ever been examined for a texas license? "have you ever held a license in any other state? "have you ever been denied a license? "has your license and driving privilege ever been suspended, revoked, or canceled? "have you ever been convicted of driving while intoxicated, failure to stop and render aid, aggravated assault with a motor vehicle, negligent homicide with a motor vehicle or murder with a motor vehicle?" all answered in the negative. "have you ever been convicted of any other moving traffic violation? "have you ever been involved as a driver in a motor vehicle accident? "have you ever been subject to losses of consciousness or muscular control? "have you ever been addicted to the use of intoxicating liquor or narcotic drugs? "do you have any physical or mental defects?" and, lastly: "have you ever been a patient in a hospital for mental illness?" the side as to the driving record, that is the reverse side, nothing appears thereon, and nothing in any portion of the form which deals with the record of his examination. i am a little at a loss, mr. chairman, as to whether i should offer this in evidence at the present moment, because it is a document found among his effects in his room, and my statement of fact would be pure hearsay. mr. mccloy. how did we get in possession of it? mr. jenner. it was supplied to us by the fbi. the document was turned over to the fbi. may i withhold offering the document in evidence? we may have another witness who will be able to qualify it. mr. mccloy. who can identify it? mr. jenner. i am sure we will have a witness. we do want the document in evidence. [commission exhibit no. is also commission exhibit no. , vol. i, p. .] identifying as commission exhibit a form of employee identification questionnaire of the jaggars-chiles-stovall co. please examine exhibit . i direct your attention to the signature in the lower left-hand corner. are you familiar with that signature? mrs. paine. i can't say i am familiar with it. mr. jenner. did you ever have any discussion with lee oswald relating to his obtaining of a position with jaggars-chiles-stovall? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and when did that discussion occur? mrs. paine. in new orleans on the second trip, the end of september, when we talked about the possibility of marina's coming back to have the baby in texas where they could qualify as one year residents, he equipped me to show that he had been in texas, and in dallas for a year by giving me a receipt or part of a paycheck, i don't know just what it was, with the jaggars-chiles-stovall name on it, in october. mr. jenner. what was the purpose---- mrs. paine. he was supplying me with documents that would admit her to parkland hospital as a patient. he gave me his---- mr. jenner. to show the necessary---- mrs. paine. that he had worked with stovall. mr. jenner. and the necessary residential period of time in texas? mrs. paine. and the necessary residence. mr. jenner. i see. did you take that document with you? mrs. paine. yes; i did. mr. jenner. and what did you do with it? mrs. paine. took it to parkland hospital. and subsequently returned it to him. mr. jenner. for what purpose had you gone to parkland hospital? mrs. paine. for prenatal care and care at the time of the birth of marina oswald's second child. mr. jenner. and is parkland hospital a public institution in dallas? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. with the necessary residential period of time, marina, if she had qualified in that respect, or did qualify then she could receive treatment with respect to the birth of her child either at no cost to her or at reduced cost, is that correct? mrs. paine. i understood it to be cost fitted to their ability to pay. mr. jenner. and so you did, yourself, affirmatively arrange that? mrs. paine. that is right. what arrangement? mr. jenner. affirmatively. you did it yourself? mrs. paine. oh, yes. mr. jenner. we have now reached the summer period of , and covered some of it in part. my recollection of your testimony is that you vacationed in the summer of . mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. you visited various members of your family up north? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. you departed irving, tex., some time in july, is that correct? mrs. paine. i believe it was the th of july. mr. jenner. and just tell us whom of your family you visited and where you visited, without telling us what you did. mrs. paine. i visited my mother-in-law and stepfather-in-law. mr. jenner. that is mr. and mrs. young, arthur young? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. in paoli, pa.? mrs. paine. i first went to naushon island off the coast of massachusetts. mr. jenner. were you driving in the station wagon? mrs. paine. yes; i was. mr. jenner. with your children? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and you went from there to where? whom did you visit next? mrs. paine. how detailed do you want to be? mr. jenner. just tell us whom you visited is all. mrs. paine. i stopped and saw miss mary forman, in connecticut, one night. mr. jenner. she is an old friend of yours? mrs. paine. she is an old friend of mine from columbus, ohio, and went on then to paoli the next day, and stayed there, again with the youngs, until the early part of september. mr. mccloy. is that paoli, pa.? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. did you visit your mother and your father or either of them? mrs. paine. my father came to paoli and visited me there. mr. jenner. did i ask you yesterday, mrs. paine, and please forgive me if this is a repetition, the occupation of your father. mrs. paine. he is an insurance underwriter; he composes the fine print. mr. jenner. was he at one time an actuary? mrs. paine. what does actuary mean? mr. jenner. a man who computes the probabilities and works in connection with---- mrs. paine. he may be. i am not certain exactly what his position is. mr. jenner. for what company, please? mrs. paine. the nationwide insurance company. mr. jenner. where is their main office? mrs. paine. in columbus, ohio. mr. jenner. your father visited you at paoli. did you see your mother during that summer period? mrs. paine. yes; i did. i saw her briefly on the way to naushon island, and then again i saw her on my way back to the south and west, in columbus, ohio. mr. jenner. at columbus, she was living there then? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. did you see your sister on that trip? mrs. paine. yes; i did. mr. jenner. and where did you see her? mrs. paine. she lives in suburban washington, and i saw here there at her home. i also saw michael's brother, and his wife, who live in baltimore. mr. jenner. would you identify michael's brother, please? mrs. paine. his name is cameron paine, c-a-m-e-r-o-n. mr. jenner. what is his occupation or business? mrs. paine. he works with social security. mr. jenner. for the state or the united states government? mrs. paine. for the united states government. mr. jenner. that covers generally the people you visited that summer? mrs. paine. no. i also visited my brother, in yellow springs, ohio. mr. jenner. that is your brother, the physician? mrs. paine. that is right. i visited with friends in the philadelphia area, while i was at paoli. mr. jenner. do you mean by the term "friends" there to mean in the sense i would mean friends? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. or members of the friends society? mrs. paine. some were both, but i meant it as personal friends. and then i saw also friends, also both, capital f and small, in richmond, ind., and then from there i headed directly south to new orleans. (discussion off the record.) mrs. paine. shall i go on to arrival at new orleans? mr. jenner. this spanned a period of a little over months, did it not? mrs. paine. it was just short of months total that i was away from my home in irving. mr. jenner. and in the meantime you had had the correspondence with marina that you had related this morning, during the course of your going along, had you? mrs. paine. during that vacation she and i exchanged one letter each. mr. jenner. yes. had you advised her that you were coming to new orleans? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. for what purpose? mrs. paine. to visit. and to talk. mr. jenner. about what? mrs. paine. to see if it was appropriate for her to come to my house for the birth of the baby. mr. jenner. at that moment, at that time, when you were about to return or about to go to new orleans, this concept was limited to her coming to be with you for the birth of the child? mrs. paine. that is correct. mr. jenner. at least temporarily she abandoned the notion of joining you on a semipermanent basis? mrs. paine. it was abandoned. it was not taken up again. mr. jenner. you arrived in new orleans? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. the th of september. mr. mccloy. maybe you are going to get to this. maybe i am anticipating your case, so to speak, but during these visits that you paid to your friends on this trip, did you talk about your association with marina? mrs. paine. yes; i did. mr. mccloy. you did? mrs. paine. quite a lot. it was rather an important thing to me. mr. jenner. i have some questions to put to mrs. paine on that subject, but they are in the area of the collateral that i spoke of this morning, so i did not go into them at the moment. now, starting with your arrival in new orleans, you got there in the morning or afternoon? mrs. paine. i arrived midafternoon, as i remember. mr. jenner. and you went directly to their home, did you? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. what did you find when you reached the home? mrs. paine. i was expected. they had groceries bought. mr. jenner. who was home? mrs. paine. marina and lee, and the baby june. mr. jenner. i don't have a calendar before me. the th of september is what day of the week? mrs. paine. is a friday. mr. jenner. ? mrs. paine. i spent the night there that night and the succeeding nights. lee who bought the groceries while i was there, was host. at one point mrs. ruth kloepfer, who has been previously mentioned, came and visited with her sister--excuse me, with her two daughters. this was after i had made a telephone call to her. mr. jenner. these daughters were adults or were they children? mrs. paine. the daughters were grown daughters. mr. jenner. grown? mrs. paine. in college, college-age daughters, and one had been studying russian, didn't know very much. i was impressed with the role that lee took of the general host, talking with them, looking over some slides that one of the daughters had brought of her trip, recent trip to russia, showing sights that they recognized, i guess, in moscow. mr. jenner. that the girls recognized? mrs. paine. no; that lee and marina recognized of moscow, or lee did, at least. and he was very outgoing and warm and friendly. he seemed in good spirits that weekend. i found him--he made a much better impression on me, i will say, that weekend than the last weekend i had seen him, which was in may. i could see, and it was the first time that i felt that he was concerned about his wife's physical welfare and about where she could go to have the baby, and he seemed distinctly relieved to consider the possibility of her going to dallas county and getting care through parkland hospital, and clearly pleased that i wanted to offer this, and pleased to have her go, which relieved my mind a good deal. i hadn't wanted to have such an arrangement come about without his being interested in having it that way. mr. jenner. during the course of this, did you say you were there days? mrs. paine. three nights, two days. mr. jenner. two days and three nights; there was then a discussion between yourself and marina, yourself on the one hand, marina and lee on the other, in which it was determined that marina would return with you to irving, tex., for the purpose of having the birth of her child in irving? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. and lee did participate in those discussions? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. now, during the course of the time you were there, was there any discussion of the fact that lee was at that time jobless and would be seeking a position? mrs. paine. i knew from marina's letters that he was out of work. mr. jenner. yes. mrs. paine. we did have one short conversation and this was in english. i began it. he was willing to proceed in english. mr. jenner. this is one of the few occasions in which he permitted himself to speak with you in english? mrs. paine. that is correct. i asked him if he thought his application was any impediment to his getting and keeping a job. he said he didn't know, and went on to say that he had already lost his job when he was arrested for passing out pro-cuba literature here in new orleans. and he said he spent the night in jail, and i said, "did marina know that?" "yes, she knew it." mr. jenner. i want you to finish the conversation. mrs. paine. this was as much of a revelation, accurate revelation of what he had done as i ever got from him. mr. jenner. excuse me, mrs. paine. i am going to get into that with you. i would like to have you finish the conversation first before you give your reaction. mrs. paine. that was the end of it. mr. jenner. that was the end? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. now, with respect to the fair play for cuba committee activity, had you up to this moment heard of lee harvey oswald's activities, if any, of any character and to any extent, with respect to the fair play for cuba committee? mrs. paine. i had not heard of any such activities. the name of the committee was not mentioned. i did not know the name of the committee until it appeared in the newspapers after the assassination. mr. jenner. now, how did lee harvey oswald describe that? what did he say? mrs. paine. he said that he was passing out pro-castro or pro-cuba literature, and that there were some anti-castro people who also caused some disturbance, and that he had spent the night in jail. mr. jenner. and did i understand you correctly to say that he assigned that as a possible---- mrs. paine. no, on the contrary. mr. jenner. as possibly having had some effect on his loss of position? mrs. paine. on the contrary, he made the point that he had already lost his job before this happened. mr. jenner. that he had lost his position before the fair play for cuba incident? mrs. paine. so that he did not know, he could not cite an instance where his application had made it difficult for him in his work. mr. jenner. had you had conversation with marina prior to this time in which she might have suggested or did suggest that his application and his history of having gone to russia and then returned to the united states as having an adverse effect on his efforts to obtain employment? mrs. paine. no; nothing of that nature was said. mr. jenner. that was never discussed in your presence? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. was it ever discussed in your presence or raised in your presence by anybody other than lee harvey oswald or marina? mrs. paine. not to my recollection. mr. jenner. was it ever discussed with you by anybody even though they weren't present? by "they" i mean lee and marina. you recall none? this is the first instance of any discussion of that character, and you raised it, did you? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. and you have exhausted your recollection of this particular conversation, have you? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. i gather from your testimony that you found the relations between marina and lee improved on this occasion? mrs. paine. they certainly appeared to be improved. the weekend time was certainly much more comfortable than the weekend in early may had been when i first was in new orleans. mr. jenner. you described yesterday an irritability as between marina and lee when you were there in the spring? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and that that had continued during all the time you were in new orleans. you found the situation different? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. on your return in the fall? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. now, you have already related the incident about touring bourbon street, and that occurred on this occasion, did it? mrs. paine. during that weekend, yes; those days. mr. jenner. and lee harvey oswald stayed home that evening or that day. it was late in the day, was it, rather than the evening? mrs. paine. it was early evening. mr. jenner. early evening. what did he do at home, do you know? mrs. paine. when we got back marina noticed that the dishes had been cleaned up and put away. i take it back, they had been washed, not put away. and i believe he did some packing. mr. jenner. in anticipation of your returning to irving, tex., with marina? mrs. paine. that is right. i was impressed during these days with his willingness to help with the packing. he did virtually all the packing and all the loading of the things into the car. i simply thought that gentlemanly of him at the time. i have wondered since whether he wasn't doing it by preference to having me handle it. mr. jenner. i was about to ask you your impression in that direction. did he seem eager to do the packing? mrs. paine. he did, distinctly. mr. jenner. distinctly eager? mrs. paine. i recall he began as early, you see, as saturday night and we left tuesday morning. mr. jenner. and you are aware of the fact he did some packing while you and marina were on tour? mrs. paine. it couldn't have been saturday night, because i only arrived on saturday. more likely it was sunday. is bourbon street open on sunday? mr. jenner. bourbon street is open all the time. mrs. paine. then it would have to be---- (discussion off the record.) mr. jenner. did you have the feeling at the time that he was quite eager to do the packing? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and did you have the feeling it was just a touch out of the ordinary? mrs. paine. it didn't occur to me that it was. mr. jenner. but on reflection now, you think it was out of the ordinary? mrs. paine. on reflection now i think it wasn't simply a gesture of the gentleman. mr. jenner. but at the time it didn't arouse enough interest on your part to have a question in your mind? mrs. paine. no; i would have expected it of other men, but this was the first i saw him taking that much interest. mr. jenner. it did arrest your attention on that score, in any event? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. now, you were there for full days and evenings. would you tell us, conserving your description in your words, what did you do during these days and nights. when i say "you", i am including all three of you. mrs. paine. of course, afternoons we usually spent in rest for the children, having all small children, all of us having small children. mr. jenner. whenever this doesn't include lee harvey oswald would you be good enough to tell us? mrs. paine. when he was not present? mr. jenner. that is right. mrs. paine. my recollection is that he was present most of the weekend. he went out to buy groceries, came in with a cheery call to his two girls, saying, "yabutchski," which means girls, the russian word for girls, as he came in the door. it was more like harvey than i had seen him before. he remembered this time. i saw him reading a pocketbook. mr. jenner. the commission is interested in his readings. to the best of your ability to recall, tell us. you noticed it now, of course. mrs. paine. yes. i don't recall the title of it. i do recall that i loaned him a pocketbook at one point. i can't even recall what it was about. but i might if i saw it. mr. jenner. was it a book on any political subject? mrs. paine. no. representative ford. was it an english book? mrs. paine. but it was in english, unless it was a parallel text of russian-english short stories, something like that, i can't remember. it might have been reid's ten days that shook the world, or something like that, but i am not at all certain. i would have thought he would have read that, anyway. representative ford. was it a book that you recall having had with you that summer? ten days---- mrs. paine. it is a book i should still own, and i don't recall for sure whether i have that one. representative ford. ten days that shook the world? mrs. paine. i am very shaky in my memory. i had prepared a collection of books for the course in russian at saint marks school, and they included history and literature and english. representative ford. but you were still anticipating teaching russian at saint marks school in irving? mrs. paine. that is right, and this was just part of a bibliography of things of interest that included some of the more historical texts from many points of view regarding soviet life. representative ford. i interrupted you. mr. jenner. i was asking you to tell us in general what was done during those days and nights. mrs. paine. we went out to wash diapers at the local washiteria, and stayed while they were done and went back. mr. jenner. you and lee? mrs. paine. i don't think that he went. my recollection is that marina and i went. mr. jenner. he remained home? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. did you visit with any of their in-laws? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. did they visit while you were there? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. did they come there? mrs. paine. no. i have already referred to a visit from mrs. kloepfer, with her two girls which must have been the day before we left or monday. no, sunday, it must have been sunday. it wasn't much time altogether, because sunday was the day before we left. mr. jenner. is mrs. kloepfer a native american? mrs. paine. i have no idea. she speaks natively. mr. jenner. but she does have a command of the russian language? mrs. paine. oh, no, no. her daughter has had year of russian in college, and was much too shy to begin to say anything, thoroughly overwhelmed by meeting someone who really spoke. mr. jenner. i must have misinterpreted your testimony this morning. mrs. paine. her daughter had visited in the soviet union just recently and had slides that she had taken that summer. mr. jenner. but mrs. kloepfer, as far as you are informed, had no command of the russian language? mrs. paine. absolutely none. she was the only person i knew to try to contact to ask if she knew or could find anyone in new orleans who knew russian, and she said she didn't know anyone, over the phone. mr. jenner. i see. mrs. paine. and i, therefore, also tried to get mrs. blanchard to seek out someone who could talk to marina. mr. jenner. mrs. blanchard had no command of the russian language, as far as you knew? mrs. paine. i would be certain she didn't. mr. jenner. have you described for us generally the course of events in the days and nights you were there? mrs. paine. well, much of the last portion, some of the last portion of sunday was spent packing up. it was a very well loaded automobile by then, because i already had a great many of my own, including a boat on the top of the car to which we attached the playpen, stroller, and other things on top. i should describe in detail the packing, which was another thing that made me feel that he did care for his wife. we left on monday morning, yes, monday morning early, the d, and it seemed to me he was very sorry to see her go. they kissed goodbye and we got in the car and i started down intending really to go no farther than the first gas station because i had a soft rear tire and i wasn't going to have a flat with this great pile of goods on top of not only my car but my spare, so i went down to the first gas station that was open a couple blocks down, and prepared to buy a tire. lee having watched us, walked down to the gas station and talked and visited while i arranged to have the tire changed, bought a new one and had it changed. i felt he wished or thought he should be offering something toward the cost of the tire. he said, "that sure is going to cost a lot, isn't it?" and i said, "yes; but car owners have to expect that." this is as close as he came to offering financial help. but it was at least a gesture. mr. jenner. then there was no financial help given you? mrs. paine. there was no financial help. mr. jenner. given you by lee harvey oswald? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. in connection with the return of marina to irving, tex.? mrs. paine. and he did not at this time give her, so far as i know, any small change or petty cash to take with her, whereas when he left her in late april to go to my house, she to go to my house, and he to go to new orleans, he left $ or so with her. she spent that on incidentals. mr. jenner. mrs. paine, did he ever, during all of the period of your acquaintance with the oswalds, ever offer any reimbursement financially or anything at all to you? mrs. paine. no; he never offered anything to me. mr. jenner. was there any discussion between you and him on the subject? mrs. paine. no. as close as we came to such discussion was saying that when they had enough money and perhaps after christmas they would get an apartment again, and i judged, felt that he was saving money towards renting a furnished apartment for his family. mr. jenner. now, i used the term "offer." did he ever offer? did he in fact ever give you any money? mrs. paine. he in fact never gave me any money, either. he did give marina. mr. jenner. the one incident of which you are speaking or on other occasions? mrs. paine. there was that one incident in april. mr. jenner. yes. mrs. paine. he did give her, i think, $ , just prior, or some time close to the time of the assassination, because she planned to buy some shoes. mr. jenner. shoes for herself, or her children? mrs. paine. for herself, flats. but when he gave that to her i am not certain. i do know that we definitely planned to go out on friday afternoon, the d of november, to buy those shoes. we did not go. mr. jenner. that is you girls planned to do that? mrs. paine. she and i did; yes. representative ford. mr. jenner, do you plan to ask questions about the process of packing of the car? mr. jenner. yes; i do. now, this improvement in the attitude of lee harvey oswald, arrested your deliberate attention--didn't it? mrs. paine. yes; it did. it was really the first i had felt any sympathy for him at all. mr. jenner. did you have any feeling that he, in turn, felt that he might not be seeing marina any more? mrs. paine. i had no feeling of that whatever. mr. jenner. none whatsoever. mrs. paine. he told me that he was going to try to look for work in houston, and possibly in philadelphia; these were the two names he mentioned. mr. jenner. we are interested in that, in this particular phase of the investigation. did he make that statement in your presence, in the presence of marina? mrs. paine. i don't recall. mr. jenner. i take it that this was elicited by a discussion of the subject of his going to look for work after you girls had left, is that correct? mrs. paine. about what he would do after we left? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. now, would you repeat just what he said on that subject? mrs. paine. he told me that he was going to go to houston to look for work, or possibly to philadelphia. mr. jenner. did he say anything about having any acquaintances or friends in either of those towns? mrs. paine. he did. you recalled to my mind he said he had a friend in houston. mr. jenner. did he mention other towns he might undertake to visit? mrs. paine. no; he didn't. or any other friends. mr. jenner. was there any inference or did you infer from anything he said or which might have been said in your presence that after you girls left he intended to leave new orleans? to look---- mrs. paine. he was definitely planning to leave new orleans after we left. mr. jenner. promptly? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. you had that definite impression? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and he put it in terms of leaving new orleans to go to houston, or what was the other town? mrs. paine. possibly philadelphia. mr. jenner. possibly philadelphia. now, during all that weekend, was there any discussion of anybody going to mexico? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. was the subject of mexico discussed at any time and in any respect? mrs. paine. not at any time nor any respect. mr. jenner. on the trip back to irving, tex., did marina say anything on the subject of mexico? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. did you girls discuss what lee was going to do during this interim period? mrs. paine. only to the extent that he was looking for a job, but i think that discussion, my memory of it comes from a discussion with lee rather than a discussion with her. i may say that we never talked about any particular time, he would see marina again. mr. jenner. you did not? mrs. paine. he kissed her a very fond goodbye, both at home and then again at the gas station, and i felt he cared and he would certainly see her. and this i recalled the other night. it should be put in here. as he was giving me this material, i have already mentioned, that indicated his claim to year residence in texas, i can't remember just what i said that elicited it from him, but some reference to, shall i say that you have gone, or how can i--what shall i say about the husband, where is the husband? mr. jenner. do the best in your own words. mrs. paine. shall i say that you have gone away or away looking for work or something? what shall i say about you? mr. jenner. this is marina? mrs. paine. this is in english now, this one english conversation. mr. jenner. by you? mrs. paine. apropos of being prepared to admit her to parkland. i asked, what shall i say about him, that he is gone or what? he said, "oh, no, that might appear that i had abandoned her." and i was glad to hear him say that he didn't at all want it to appear or to feel of himself that he had abandoned her. mr. jenner. did he say anything as to what representations you might make to parkland hospital and other state authorities in that respect? mrs. paine. no; i don't recall. mr. jenner. on the trip back to--may i defer the packing until representative ford returns--on the trip back to irving, tex., did you and marina discuss the subject matter of dee's going to houston, tex., or to philadelphia to look for a job? mrs. paine. no; we didn't. mr. jenner. at any time during the weekend you were in new orleans or driving from new orleans to irving, tex., was the friend identified, the supposed friend? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. in houston, identified? mrs. paine. no; i remember wondering if there was one. mr. jenner. you wondered at the time? mrs. paine. i wondered to myself if there was one. mr. jenner. what made you wonder? mrs. paine. i may say, also, i wondered, as i have already indicated for the commission, i had wondered, from time to time, whether this was a man who was working as a spy or in any way a threat to the nation, and i thought, "this is the first i have heard anything about a contact. i am interested to know if this is a real thing or something unreal." and waited to see really whether i would learn any more about it. but this thought crossed my mind. mr. jenner. it did? now, many of my questions are directed towards trying to find out what this man did with his time. when he went job hunting, according to some of the records here, he appeared to return home rather promptly. that is, he would leave in the morning but he would be home before noontime. mrs. paine. oh? mr. jenner. did you notice anything of that nature? mrs. paine. i never saw him when he was job hunting. the times in new orleans, of course, i wasn't there. the times in april he was job hunting from a base of neely street, and in october he was operating from the base of the room on beckley street. so i never saw him. mr. jenner. so that as far as--this i would like to bring out, mr. chairman--as far as your contact with lee harvey oswald as such, mrs. paine, your opportunities for knowing what he did with his time were limited, were they not? mrs. paine. they were limited. mr. jenner. that is in the spring, there was this new orleans period when he was absent in new orleans altogether during the weeks that marina was with you? mrs. paine. right. mr. jenner. it is the period preceding the trip to new orleans that they lived a little distance from you, and that was in a period of your really becoming more acquainted with them. were you aware of what mr. oswald was doing during the daytime, or evening along in that period of time? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. in the fall when you saw him then for days and nights in the early fall of , he was out of work. he was at the home substantially all of that time? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. you returned to irving, then, and you didn't see him until he appeared as you testified this morning, on october , ? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. now, he was in your home from october , , until what was it--the th of october? is that correct? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. he was not? mrs. paine. not at all. he was in the home for the weekend of october . i then took him to the bus around noon on the th, that is a monday, to the intercity bus between irving and dallas. you can't walk to it from my house. there is no way to get anywhere from my house unless you use a car. mr. jenner. we are interested in that, also, mrs. paine, about his ability to get to your home from whatever means of public transportation there was. would you be good enough to describe the problems in that connection? mrs. paine. he called on the afternoon of the th. mr. jenner. would you give us the problems first, the physical problems? where was the bus located? what was the bus terminal? how far was it from your home? mrs. paine. the bus terminal in irving where you could get a bus going to dallas was several miles away, to miles away from my home, a minute car ride. mr. jenner. and what means of transportation was there from the bus terminal to your home? mrs. paine. walking? mr. jenner. any public transportation. mrs. paine. there was nothing public. mr. jenner. you would have to hitchhike or walk or be driven? mrs. paine. that is correct. mr. jenner. i take it, then, there were occasions when you would have to go and pick him up at the bus terminal? mrs. paine. i recall at least one such occasion, and that was on the th of october, a saturday, which was the next time he came out. mr. jenner. that was the next time following the october weekend? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. when was the first time that you heard, or had any notice of the fact that this man had been in mexico, or possibly may have been in mexico? mrs. paine. they are two different questions. i will answer the first one. i heard that he had been in mexico after the assassination in one of the papers. mr. jenner. was that the first time? mrs. paine. yes; that was the first time. looking back then, with that knowledge, i could see that i might have guessed this from two other things that had happened. mr. jenner. all right, give us them in sequence, please. mrs. paine. one was, i can describe by an incident that took place at our home, i am not certain which weekend, one of the times that lee was out. he wanted to drill a hole in a silver coin for marina so she could wear it around her neck, and presumed to use my husband's drill press, which is one of the many things in the garage, and i complained. but he convinced me that he knew how to operate it and knew just what he was doing. so i said, all right, and he proceeded to drill a hole in this coin, and then marina showed it to me later. i didn't look closely at it. it wasn't until--although i could have perfectly well in this situation. i did see that it was a foreign coin. mr. jenner. it was a what? mrs. paine. it was a foreign coin. it was not a coin i recognized. it was about the size of a silver dollar, but not as thick, as i remember it. and it was not then until perhaps a week or something less after the assassination when an fbi agent asked me was there anything left in the house that would be pertinent, and he and i went together and looked in the drawer in the room where marina had been staying, and found there this drilled coin, looked at it closely, and it was a peso, the republic of mexico. this is the first i had looked at it closely. also, with this peso was a spanish-english dictionary. my tendency to be very hesitant to look into other people's things was rather put aside at this point, and i was very curious to see what this book was, and i observed that the price of it, or what i took to be the price was in a corner at the front was not in english money, and at the back in his hand or somebody's hand in small scribble was the notation, "buy tickets for bull fight, get silver bracelet for marina" and there in the drawer also was a silver bracelet with the name marina on it, which i took to be associated with this notation. mr. jenner. was it inscribed on the bracelet? mrs. paine. it was inscribed, the name marina. and some picture postcards with no message, just a picture of mexico city in this dictionary, and these i gave to the---- mr. jenner. had you seen any of these items in your home at anytime prior to this occasion that you have now described? mrs. paine. none of these items except the peso which i had not noticed to be that, seen it, of course. mr. jenner. now, that is one incident. mrs. paine. that is one incident. another refers to a rough draft of a letter that lee wrote and left this rough draft on my secretary desk. mr. jenner. would you describe the incident? in the meantime, i will obtain the rough draft here among my notes. mrs. paine. all right. this was on the morning of november , saturday. he asked to use my typewriter, and i said he might. mr. jenner. excuse me. would you please state to the commission why you are reasonably firm that it was the morning of november ? what arrests your attention to that particular date? mrs. paine. because i remember the weekend that this note or rough draft remained on my secretary desk. he spent the weekend on it. and the weekend was close and its residence on that desk was stopped also on the evening of sunday, the th, when i moved everything in the living room around; the whole arrangement of the furniture was changed, so that i am very clear in my mind as to what weekend this was. mr. jenner. all right, go ahead. mrs. paine. he was using the typewriter. i came and put june in her high-chair near him at the table where he was typing, and he moved something over what he was typing from, which aroused my curiosity. mr. jenner. why did that arouse your curiosity? mrs. paine. it appeared he didn't want me to see what he was writing or to whom he was writing. i didn't know why he had covered it. if i had peered around him, i could have looked at the typewriter and the page in it, but i didn't. mr. jenner. it did make you curious? mrs. paine. it did make me curious. then, later that day, i noticed a scrawling handwriting on a piece of paper on the corner at the top of my secretary desk in the living room. it remained there. sunday morning i was the first one up. i took a closer look at this, a folded sheet of paper folded at the middle. the first sentence arrested me because i knew it to be false. and for this reason i then proceeded---- mr. jenner. would you just hold it at that moment. this is for purposes of identification, mr. chairman, rather than admission of the document in evidence. i have marked pages and of commission document no. generally referred to by the staff as the gemberling report. he is an fbi agent. i have now placed that before the witness. you examined that yesterday with me, did you not, mrs. paine? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. the document i am now showing you? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. is that a transcript, a literal transcript of the document you saw? mrs. paine. of course the document was in english, transcribing of what was said; yes. mr. jenner. by transcript i meant that it has been retyped, that it is literal. mrs. paine. that is the document; yes. mr. jenner. that is interesting. you noticed that the document was in english. mrs. paine. oh, yes. mr. jenner. you saw it. and it was folded at what point, now that you have the transcript of it before you? mrs. paine. at the top of what i could see of the paper. in other words, it was just below the fold. it said, "the fbi is not now interested in my activities." mr. jenner. is that what arrested your attention? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. what did you do? mrs. paine. i then proceeded to read the whole note, wondering, knowing this to be false, wondering why he was saying it. i was irritated to have him writing a falsehood on my typewriter, i may say, too. i felt i had some cause to look at it. mr. jenner. may i have your permission, mr. chairman. the document is short. it is relevant to the witness' testimony, and might i read it aloud in the record to draw your attention to it? mr. mccloy. without objection. mr. jenner. mrs. paine, would you help me by reading it, since you have it there. mrs. paine. do you want me to leave out all the crossed out---- mr. jenner. no; i wish you would indicate that too. mrs. paine. "dear sirs: "this is to inform you of events since my interview with comrade kostine in the embassy of the soviet union, mexico city, mexico." (discussion off the record.) mrs. paine. he typed it early in the morning of that day because after he typed it we went to the place where you get the test for drivers. it was that same day. mr. jenner. it was election day and the driver's license place was closed, is that correct? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and that was november ? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. now you have reached the point where you are reading the letter on the morning of november . mrs. paine. that is right; after i had noticed that it lay on my desk the previous evening. "i was unable to remain in mexico city (because i considered useless--)"--because--it is crossed out. mr. jenner. excuse me, mr. chairman. in this transcript wherever there are words stricken out, the transcriber has placed those words in parenthesis and transcribed the words, but then has written the words "crossed out" to indicate in the original the words crossed out. proceed, mrs. paine. mrs. paine. "indefinitely because of my (visa--crossed out) mexican visa restrictions which was for days only. "(i had a--crossed out) i could not take a chance on applying for an extension unless i used my real name so i returned to the u.s. "i and marina nicholyeva are now living in dallas, texas. (you all ready ha--crossed out). "the fbi is not now interested in my activities in the progressive organization fpcc of which i was secretary in (new orleans, la.--crossed out) new orleans, louisiana since i (am--crossed out) no longer (connected with--crossed out) live in that state. "(november the november--crossed out) the fbi has visited us here in texas on november st. agent of the fbi james p. hasty warned me that if i attempt to engage in fpcc activities in texas the fbi will again take an 'interest' in me. the agent also 'suggested' that my wife could 'remain in the u.s. under fbi protection', that is, she could (refuse to return to the--crossed out) defect from the soviet union. of course i and my wife strongly protested these tactics by the notorious fbi. "(it was unfortun that the soviet embassy was unable to aid me in mexico city but--crossed out) i had not planned to contact the mexico city embassy at all so of course they were unprepared for me. had i been able to reach havana as planned (i could have contacted--crossed out) the soviet embassy there (for the completion of would have been able to help me get the necessary documents i required assist me--crossed out) would have had time to assist me, but of course the stuip cuban consule was at fault here. i am glad he has since been replaced by another." mr. jenner. now i would like to ask you a few questions about your reaction to that. you had read that in the quiet of your living room on sunday morning, the th of november. mrs. paine. that is correct. mr. jenner. and there were a number of things in that that you thought were untrue. mrs. paine. several things i knew to be untrue. mr. jenner. you knew to be untrue. were there things in there that alarmed you? mrs. paine. yes; i would say so. mr. jenner. what were they? mrs. paine. to me this--well, i read it and decided to make a copy. mr. jenner. would having the document back before you help you? mrs. paine. no, no. i was just trying to think what to say first. and decided that i should have such a copy to give to an fbi agent coming again, or to call. i was undecided what to do. meantime i made a copy. mr. jenner. but you did have the instinct to report this to the fbi? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and you made a copy of the document? mrs. paine. and i made a copy of the document which should be among your papers, because they have that too. and after having made it, while the shower was running, i am not used to subterfuge in any way, but then i put it back where it had been and it lay the rest of sunday on my desk top, and of course i observed this too. mr. jenner. that is that lee didn't put it away, just left it out in the room? mrs. paine. that he didn't put it away or didn't seem to care or notice or didn't recall that he had a rough draft lying around. i observed it was untrue that the fbi was no longer interested in him. i observed it was untrue that the fbi came---- mr. jenner. why did you observe that that was untrue? mrs. paine. well, the fbi came and they asked me, they said---- mr. jenner. had the fbi been making inquiries of you prior to that time? mrs. paine. they had been twice. mr. jenner. november and---- mrs. paine. november , and they told me the . i made no record of it whatever. mr. jenner. but it was a few days later? mrs. paine. yes; a few days later. and the first visit i understood to be a visit to convey to marina that if any blackmail pressure was being put upon her, because of relatives back home, that she was invited, if she wished, to talk about this to the fbi. this is a far cry from being told she could defect from the soviet union, very strong words, and false both. mr. jenner. did you ever hear anything at all insofar as the fbi is concerned reported to you by marina or lee harvey oswald during all of your acquaintance with either of them of any suggestion by the fbi or anybody else that marina defect in that context to the united states? mrs. paine. no, absolutely not. mr. jenner. or anything of similar import? mrs. paine. nothing of similar import. mr. jenner. i limited it to the fbi. any agency of the government of the united states? mrs. paine. nothing of that sort. mr. jenner. and did you see or observe anything during all of that period of your acquaintance, which stimulated you to think at all or have any notion that any agency of the government of the united states was seeking to induce her to defect? mrs. paine. to the united states? mr. jenner. to the united states. mrs. paine. no, and her terminology in view of it was so completely different from such stereotyped and loaded words that i was seeing as i read this. what i was most struck with was what kind of man is this. mr. jenner. is who? mrs. paine. why is lee oswald writing this? what kind of man? here is a false statement that she was invited to defect, false statement that the fbi is no longer interested, false statement that he was present, "they visited i and my wife." mr. jenner. was he present? mrs. paine. he was not present. false statement that "i and my wife protested vigorously." having not been present he could not protest. mr. jenner. he was not present when the fbi interviewed you on november . was marina present then? mrs. paine. she was present. mr. jenner. and was marina present when the fbi came later on november ? mrs. paine. she came into the room just after basically the very short visit was concluded. mr. jenner. the second interview was a rather short one? mrs. paine. the second interview was conducted standing up. he simply asked me did i know the address. my memory had been refreshed by him since. mr. jenner. the first interview, however, was a rather lengthly one? mrs. paine. but it was not strictly speaking an interview. mr. jenner. what was it? mrs. paine. it was, as mr. hosty has described to me later, and i think this was my impression too of it at the time, an informal opening for confidence. he presented himself. he talked. we conversed about the weather, about texas, about the end of the last world war and changes in germany at the time. he mentioned that the fbi is very careful in their investigations not to bring anyone they suspect in public light until they have evidence to convict him in a proper court of law, that they did not convict by hearsay or public accusation. he asked me, and here i am answering why i thought it was false to say the fbi is no longer interested in lee oswald; he asked first of all if i knew did lee live there, and i said "no." did i know where he lived? no, i didn't, but that it was in dallas. did i know where he worked? yes, i did. and i said i thought lee was very worried about losing this job, and the agent said that well, it wasn't their custom to approach the employer directly. i said that lee would be there on the weekend, so far as i knew, that he could be seen then, if he was interested in talking to lee. i want to return now to the fact that i had seen these gross falsehoods and strong words, concluding with "notorious fbi" in this letter, and gone to say i wondered whether any of it was true, including the reference to going to mexico, including the reference to using a false name, and i still wonder if that was true or false that he used an assumed name, though i no longer wonder whether he had actually gone. mr. jenner. there was a subsequent incident in which you did learn that he used an assumed name, was there not? mrs. paine. yes, a week later. mr. jenner. we will get to that in a moment. but was this---- mrs. paine. but this was the first indication i had that this man was a good deal queerer than i thought, and it didn't tell me, perhaps it should have but it didn't tell me just what sort of a queer he was. he addressed it "dear sirs." it looked to me like someone trying to make an impression, and choosing the words he thought were best to make that impression, even including assumed name as a possible attempt to make an impression on someone who was able to do espionage, but not to my mind necessarily a picture of someone who was doing espionage, though i left that open as a possibility, and thought i'd give it to the fbi and let them conclude or add it to what they knew. i regret, and i would like to put this on the record, particularly two things in my own actions prior to the time of the assassination. one, that i didn't make the connection between this phone number that i had of where he lived and that of course this would produce for the fbi agent who was asking the address of where he lived. mr. jenner. i will get to that, mrs. paine. mrs. paine. well, that is regret . mr. jenner. i don't want to cover too many subjects at the moment. mrs. paine. but then of course you see in light of the events that followed it is a pity that i didn't go directly instead of waiting for the next visit, because the next visit was the d of november. mr. jenner. now i am going to get to that. what did you do with your copy of the letter? mrs. paine. i put my copy of the letter away in an envelope in my desk. i then, sunday evening, also took the original. i decided to do that sunday evening. mr. jenner. he had left? mrs. paine. no, he had not left. mr. jenner. he had not left? mrs. paine. i asked the gentlemen present, it included michael, to come in and help me move the furniture around. i walked in and saw the letter was still there and plunked it into my desk. we then moved all the furniture. i then took it out of the desk and placed it. mr. jenner. when did you take it out of the desk? mrs. paine. i don't think he knew that i took it. oh, that evening or the next morning, i don't recall. mr. jenner. and this was the th of november? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. did you ever have any conversation with him about that? mrs. paine. no. i came close to it. i was disturbed about it. i didn't go to sleep right away. he was sitting up watching the late spy story, if you will, on the tv, and i got up and sat there on the sofa with him saying, "i can't speak," wanting to confront him with this and say, "what is this?" but on the other hand i was somewhat fearful, and i didn't know what to do. representative ford. fearful in what way? mrs. paine. well, if he was an agent, i would rather just give it to the fbi, not to say "look, i am watching you" by saying "what is this i find on my desk." mr. jenner. were you fearful of any physical harm? mrs. paine. no; i was not. representative ford. that is what i was concerned about. mrs. paine. no; i was not, though i don't think i defined my fears. i sat down and said i couldn't sleep and he said, "i guess you are real upset about going to the lawyer tomorrow." he knew i had an appointment with my lawyer to discuss the possibility of a divorce the next day, and that didn't happen to be what was keeping me up that night, but i was indeed upset about the idea, and it was thoughtful for him to think of it. but i let it rest there, and we watched the story which he was interested in watching. and then i excused myself and went to bed. mr. jenner. what did you do ultimately with your draft of the letter and the original? mrs. paine. the first appearance of an fbi person on the d of november, i gave the original to them. the next day it probably was i said i also had a copy and gave them that. i wanted to be shut of it. mr. jenner. so i take it, mrs. paine, you did not deliver either the original or the copy or call attention to the original or the copy with respect to the fbi. mrs. paine. prior. mr. jenner. prior to the d did you say? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. and what led you to hold onto this rather provocative document? mrs. paine. it is a rather provocative document. it provoked my doubts about this fellow's normalcy more than it provoked thoughts that this was the talk of an agent reporting in. but i wasn't sure. i of course made no--i didn't know him to be a violent person, had no thought that he had this trait, possibility in him, absolutely no connection with the president's coming. if i had, hindsight is so much better, i would certainly have called the fbi's attention to it. supposing that i had? mr. jenner. if the fbi had returned, mrs. paine, as you indicated during the course of your meeting with the fbi november , would you have disclosed this document to the fbi? mrs. paine. oh, i certainly think so. this was not something i was at all comfortable in having even. mr. jenner. were you expecting the fbi to return? mrs. paine. i did expect them to come back. as i say, i had said that lee was here on weekends and so forth. it might have been a good time to give them this document. but as far as i knew, and i know now certainly, they had not seen him and they were still interested in seeing him. representative ford. how did you copy the note? mrs. paine. handwritten. representative ford. handwritten? mrs. paine. i perhaps should put in here that lee told me, and i only reconstructed this a few weeks ago, that he went, after i gave him--from the first visit of the fbi agent i took down the agent's name and the number that is in the telephone book to call the fbi, and i gave this to lee the weekend he came. mr. jenner. you gave it to lee? mrs. paine. i gave it to lee. mr. jenner. what weekend was that? mrs. paine. i am told that came out on the st of november, so that would have been the weekend of the d, the next day. mr. jenner. you have your calendar there. the st of november is what day of the week? mrs. paine. it is a friday. then he told me, it must have been the following weekend, that same weekend of the th. mr. jenner. did he say anything when you gave him agent hosty's name on the telephone? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. nothing at all? mrs. paine. i don't recall anything lee said. i will go on as to the recollections that came later. he told me that he had stopped at the downtown office of the fbi and tried to see the agents and left a note. and my impression of it is that this notice irritated. mr. jenner. irritating? mrs. paine. irritated, that he left the note saying what he thought. this is reconstructing my impression of the fellows bothering him and his family, and this is my impression then. i couldn't say this was specifically said to him later. mr. jenner. you mean he was irritated? mrs. paine. he was irritated and he said, "they are trying to inhibit my activities," and i said, "you passed your pamphlets," and could well have gone on to say what i thought, but i don't believe i did go on to say, that he could and should expect the fbi to be interested in him. he had gone to the soviet union, intended to become a citizen there, and come back. he had just better adjust himself to being of interest to them for years to come. mr. jenner. what did he say to that? mrs. paine. now as i say, this i didn't go on to say. this was my feeling. i didn't actually go on to say this. i did say, "don't be inhibited, do what you think you should." but i was thinking in terms of passing pamphlets or expressing a belief in fidel castro, if that is why he had, i defend his right to express such a belief. i felt the fbi would too and that he had no reason to be irritated. but then that was my interpretation. mr. jenner. have you given all of what he said and what you said, however, on that occasion? mrs. paine. yes. i will just go on to say that i learned only a few weeks ago that he never did go into the fbi office. of course knowing, thinking that he had gone in, i thought that was sensible on his part. but it appears to have been another lie. mr. jenner. i will return to that fbi visit in a moment. i want to cover that as a separate subject. representative ford is interested in another subject. i would like to return to the day or the period that your station wagon was being parked just before you took off. you have already testified to the fact, either earlier this afternoon or late this morning, that lee harvey oswald appeared to be quite active in doing packing. mrs. paine. right. mr. jenner. of household wares or goods that were being taken back to irving, tex. were you present when the station wagon was loaded with the various materials? mrs. paine. yes, i was present for most if not all of that. mr. jenner. who did that? mrs. paine. he put the things in. i knew that we would spend one night on the road, that there were certain things we would have to get too, and i knew where these were, and he didn't, so that i talked about where these things should be placed, and helped with some of the binding, tying things to the boat on the car rack. mr. jenner. the boat on top of the station wagon? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. now would you please tell us what there was in the way of luggage placed in the station wagon? mrs. paine. there again the two large duffels which were heavier than i could move, he put those in. mr. jenner. describe their appearance, please. mrs. paine. again stuffed full, a rumply outside. mr. jenner. with what? mrs. paine. rumply. mr. jenner. rumply? no appearance of any hard object pushing outwards? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. against the sides or ends of the duffel bags? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. you saw nothing with respect to those duffel bags which might have led you to believe---- mrs. paine. a board in it, no. mr. jenner. a tent pole, a long object, hard? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. nothing at all? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. and how many pieces of luggage? mrs. paine. again these same suitcases, or , i think including quite a small one, and the little radio. mr. jenner. what about the zipper bag? mrs. paine. that was there. i think so. oh no, it probably wasn't. i don't recall the zipper bag as being part of that. mr. jenner. i wish you would reflect a little on this because it is important, mrs. paine, if you can remember it as accurately as possible. mrs. paine. i don't recall the zipper bag among those things. mr. jenner. do you recall the zipper bag when you arrived in irving? mrs. paine. i think i saw him arrive with it himself, but i am not certain. no, wait, that may not be because i didn't see him when he first arrived. mr. jenner. when you arrived in irving, mrs. paine, not when he arrived. mrs. paine. i don't recall that. i distinctly recall the duffels because it was all i could do to get them off of the car and set them on the grass until michael could come and put them into the garage. mr. jenner. do you distinctly recall the hard-sided luggage you described yesterday? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. all of the pieces that you saw? mrs. paine. well, i don't recall that it was all. i couldn't even recall too well how many went down to new orleans originally. mr. jenner. was there more than one? mrs. paine. there was certainly more than one. mr. jenner. do you think there were more than two? mrs. paine. i don't recall specifically. mr. jenner. do you have a recollection as to whether there was a piece of luggage still apart from the zipper bag, still in the apartment at magazine street when you girls pulled out to go back to irving? mrs. paine. i have no specific recollection. mr. jenner. is it fair to say it is your best recollection at the moment that the zipper bag you have described earlier, you described yesterday, was not placed in the station wagon, and did not return with you to irving? mrs. paine. i do not recall it being in the station wagon. mr. jenner. now, was there a separate long package of any kind? mrs. paine. i do not recall such a package. mr. jenner. was there a separate package of any character wrapped in a blanket? mrs. paine. no. there was a basket such as you use for hanging your clothes. it carried exactly that, clothes and diapers, and they weren't as neat as being in suitcases and duffels would imply. there was leftovers stuffed in the corner, clothes and things, but rather open. mr. jenner. so you saw no long rectangular package of any kind or character loaded in or placed in your station wagon? mrs. paine. no, it doesn't mean it wasn't there, but i saw nothing of that nature. mr. jenner. you saw nothing? mrs. paine. i saw nothing. mr. jenner. when you arrived in irving, tex., were you present when your station wagon was unpacked? mrs. paine. marina and i did that with the exception of the duffels. mr. jenner. you did it all yourself and you took out of the station wagon everything in it other than the two duffel bags? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. now, in the process of removing everything other than the two duffel bags on the occasion on the th of september when you reached irving, tex., did you find or see any long rectangular package? mrs. paine. i recall no such package. mr. jenner. did you see any kind of a package wrapped in the blanket? mrs. paine. not to my recollection. mr. jenner. did you see any package---- mrs. paine. i don't recall seeing the blanket either. mr. jenner. on that occasion? mrs. paine. on that occasion, not until later. mr. jenner. not until later. representative ford. did you see the blanket in new orleans? mrs. paine. on the bed or something. i am asking myself. i don't recall it specifically. mr. jenner. of course we all know the blanket to which we are referring, which i will ask you about in a moment. i might show it to you at the moment, or at least ask you if it is the blanket. i am exhibiting to the witness commission exhibit no. . is this blanket familiar to you? mrs. paine. yes, it is. mr. jenner. and give us the best recollection you have when you first saw it. mrs. paine. my best recollection is that i saw it on the floor of my garage sometime in late october. mr. jenner. ? mrs. paine. right. mr. jenner. do you have a recollection of ever having seen it before that time? mrs. paine. no. i might say also now that i know certainly i have never seen this binding until last night. mr. jenner. when you say "this binding," you are pointing to what appears to be some black binding? mrs. paine. some hemstitching, it is sewn. mr. jenner. on the edge of the blanket. mrs. paine. yes. this binding was not apparent, did not show. mr. jenner. you never noticed the binding before, if the binding had always been on it, is that what you mean to say? mrs. paine. when i saw the blanket the binding was not showing. representative ford. how carefully did you analyze the blanket on the previous occasions? mrs. paine. i stepped over it. i didn't pick it up or look at it closely. representative ford. didn't turn it over? mrs. paine. no. representative ford. didn't move it? mrs. paine. no, i didn't. representative ford. so you only saw one surface more or less? mrs. paine. yes, only one surface, except i saw that it had been moved. representative ford. but you didn't move it yourself? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. in what shape, that is form, was the blanket when you first saw it? and i take it you first saw it in your garage. mrs. paine. that is my recollection. mr. jenner. and it was subsequent to the time that you and marina had returned to irving? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and you are certain that you did not see the blanket in your station wagon when you arrived in irving? mrs. paine. i do not recall seeing the blanket in my station wagon. mr. jenner. and you didn't see it in their apartment at magazine street when you were there? mrs. paine. i don't recall seeing it there. mr. jenner. either in the spring or in the fall, is that true? mrs. paine. that is true. mr. jenner. now tell us--i take it from your testimony that the blanket, when you first saw it in a garage, was in a configuration in the form of a package? mrs. paine. it was a long rectangle shape with the ends tucked in. mr. jenner. would you be good enough to re-form that blanket so that it is in the shape and the dimension when you first saw it? mrs. paine. about like so. mr. jenner. for the record if you please, mr. chairman, the length of the form is just exactly inches, and it is across exactly inches. representative ford. that is across lying flat. mr. jenner. across lying flat, thank you. now, what else about the form of the blanket did you notice on the occasion when you first saw it on your garage floor? anything else? mrs. paine. i recall from either that occasion or another that there were parallel strings around it. mr. jenner. tied? mrs. paine. into a bundle, yes, or . mr. jenner. how many were there? mrs. paine. or , i don't recall. mr. jenner. or ? mrs. paine. yes. i suppose it would be four. it would be very well spaced if it was only three, and i think they were closer than that. mr. jenner. your best recollection now. mrs. paine. is four. mr. jenner. rather than rationalization. mrs. paine. yes, there were four. mr. jenner. there were four string ties across the -inch side of the blanket. were those string ties pulled so they seemed to hold something inside the blanket? mrs. paine. they didn't seem particularly tight, but then i don't have a strong recollection of them prior to the d. mr. jenner. did you ever pick up that package? mrs. paine. no, i never did. mr. jenner. that was wrapped in the blanket. did you ever have any discussion with marina oswald about the package in your garage? mrs. paine. not until the afternoon of the d. mr. jenner. did you see anybody move it about your garage at any time? mrs. paine. no, i did not see anyone move it. mr. jenner. and how long after you returned to texas did you notice that package in your garage? mrs. paine. i said i thought it was late october perhaps. i wouldn't be at all certain about when i first noticed it. mr. jenner. and did you notice from time to time that it was in a different position or places in your garage? mrs. paine. i recall two places i saw it. mr. jenner. and the first was where? mrs. paine. over near--the radial saw, what do you call it, buzz saw? mr. jenner. bandsaw. mrs. paine. no, buzz saw. mr. jenner. oh yes, a disc type, a buzz saw, near the buzz saw. then on the second occasion when you saw it, where was it? mrs. paine. over near the work bench in front of part of the work bench, one end extending toward the bandsaw. mr. jenner. and on both of those occasions was the package lying flat on the floor or was it upended? mrs. paine. flat on the floor. mr. jenner. and you never had any curiosity with respect to it to lead you to step on it or feel it in any respect? mrs. paine. no, i didn't. mr. jenner. did you have a lot of debris or articles in the garage? mrs. paine. indeed, and do yet. our things and most of the oswald things were stored there. i have mentioned several pieces of machine tools. mr. jenner. we identified the garage picture at the tail end of yesterday, and i think the chairman is seeking it. mr. mccloy. i am trying to find it now. mrs. paine. that of course was taken more recently, but it is reasonably typical of its condition at that time too. (discussion off the record.) mr. jenner. this is a photograph numbered eight, entitled garage interior, which i have marked with commission number , and i now exhibit that to mrs. paine. are you familiar with what is depicted in that photograph? mrs. paine. very. mr. jenner. do you know when that photograph was taken? mrs. paine. it was taken about weeks ago. mr. jenner. were you present? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and does it accurately depict everything that was there and in its relative position at the time the picture was taken? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and it is your garage? mrs. paine. it is. mr. jenner. would you locate on that, and i would like to have you place an x at the point in that picture that you first saw the package? mrs. paine. underneath that box. mr. jenner. all right. you have written an arrow or x next to "on floor" and it is underneath the box that is on the floor. mrs. paine. it was in front as i recall it; this was the buzz saw i was talking about, right here. mr. jenner. right here the witness is pointing to the right hand upper middle section of the photograph. mr. dulles. is this the first location of the package? mrs. paine. it was over on that side of the garage, towards the door or---- mr. dulles. the first location of it? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. toward what door, mrs. paine? mrs. paine. toward the front of the garage. mr. jenner. where did you see it on the second occasion? mrs. paine. part of it in front of this work bench, one right under this box here. mr. jenner. put a double x here, between this workbench and this bandsaw. mrs. paine. on the floor. mr. jenner. the workbench and the bandsaw to which the witness is pointing are on the left hand side of the photograph, the bandsaw being about the upper middle. is that correct? mrs. paine. yes. the package was farther to the interior from the bench. mr. jenner. it was toward the back rather than toward the door? mrs. paine. it was the other side of the bandsaw so it was farther to the interior than its first location. mr. jenner. i offer in evidence as commission exhibit no. the document which the witness has identified which in turn was identified as commission exhibit . mr. mccloy. it will be admitted. (the photograph referred to, previously identified as commission exhibit no. , was received in evidence.) mr. jenner. for the record, i am placing the rifle in the folded blanket as mrs. paine folded it. this is being done without the rifle being dismantled. may the record show, mr. chairman, that the rifle fits well in the package from end to end, and it does not---- mrs. paine. can you make it flatter? mr. jenner. no; because the rifle is now in there. mrs. paine. i just mean that---- mr. jenner. was that about the appearance of the blanket wrapped package that you saw on your garage floor? mrs. paine. yes; although i recall it as quite flat. mr. jenner. flatter than it now appears to be? mrs. paine. yes. but it is not a clear recollection. mr. jenner. you have a firm recollection that the package you saw was of the length? mrs. paine. yes, definitely. mr. jenner. that is inches, approximately. you had no occasion when you stepped on the package---- mrs. paine. i stepped over it. mr. jenner. you always stepped over it? mrs. paine. yes; until the afternoon of the d. mr. jenner. by accident or otherwise, did you happen to come in contact with it? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. you don't know whether there was anything solid or hard in it? mrs. paine. no. mr. dulles. did it look about the way this package looks? mrs. paine. yes. mr. mccloy. except for the fact it had some cord around it? mrs. paine. yes. representative ford. when it had some cord around it, did the way it was tied pull it in or distort the shape? mrs. paine. no; it didn't distort the shape. representative ford. about the same shape even with the cord? mrs. paine. yes. mr. dulles. the cords weren't pulled tight? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. they were relatively loosely tied? mrs. paine. i recall this definite shape. mr. jenner. to hold the blanket in that form rather than to hold the contents of the package firm, is that your impression? mrs. paine. yes. mr. mccloy. are you going to ask about the husband's testimony in connection with the moving of the package? mr. jenner. i did not intend to. mr. mccloy. i was not present but your husband testified he had moved the blanket from time to time but had not opened it. did he ever refer to it? did he ever speak to you about having had to move it while he was---- mrs. paine. not until after the assassination. mr. mccloy. not until after the assassination but before the assassination he had not complained about its being there or any difficulty in moving it? mrs. paine. no; he did not mention it, and i was not present when he moved it. representative ford. was he the person who used these various woodworking pieces of equipment? mrs. paine. yes. representative ford. did he work in the garage? mrs. paine. well, he had--he made the workbench, and he had worked in the garage when he lived at the home and it has since been somewhat filled up. representative ford. but during the time that you and marina came back he didn't work in the garage? mrs. paine. he did still cut occasionally something on the saws. indeed, i did, too. i like to make children's blocks. i am trying to think when i last, if it is pertinent, when i used the saw. mr. mccloy. did you use the saw while the blanket was on floor? mrs. paine. yes; i believe so. mr. mccloy. you had to step over the blanket to do that? mrs. paine. or around it. mr. mccloy. or around it. but in the course of your use of the saw you never had the necessity or the occasion to readjust the blanket or move it in any way? mrs. paine. no. mr. dulles. did we get the three locations here? i only see two. mr. jenner. there were only two? mrs. paine. two that i recall. mr. dulles. only two. representative ford. she made a mistake in the first drawing of the second one. mrs. paine. i touched it by mistake. representative ford. i think that ought to be clarified on the record. mr. jenner. on the right-hand side of commission exhibit there is an x or an arrow above which is written the words "on floor". that is the first location point at which you saw the package? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. on the left-hand side, the lower half of the photograph there is a double x. mrs. paine. which i could not put in enough to give the proportion. mr. jenner. you mean in the photograph? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. is that where you saw the package for the second time? mrs. paine. yes; as i have described it. the position i have described is more accurate than the xx. mr. jenner. there is a red strip above the table with the tablecloth on it. mrs. paine. that is an accident with my hand. mr. jenner. that was an accident on your part? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. so there are only two locations? mrs. paine. right. mr. jenner. now, mr. chairman, may i reinsert the rifle in the package, on the opposite side from what it was before, and have the witness look at it? mr. mccloy. you may. we are back on the record. mr. jenner. yes. mr. chairman, i have now placed the opposite side of the rifle to the floor, and may the record show that the package is much flatter. the rifle when inserted firstly was turned on the side of the bolt which operates the rifle which forced it up higher. now does the package look more familiar to you, mrs. paine? mrs. paine. i recall it as being more like this, not as lumpy as the other had been. mr. jenner. more in the form it is now? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. now directing your attention to the rifle itself, which is commission exhibit , when did you first see that rifle, if you have ever seen it? mrs. paine. i saw a rifle i judge to have been the same one at the police station on the afternoon of november , i don't recall the strap. mr. jenner. you don't recall at the time you saw it on the d of november in the police station that it had a strap? mrs. paine. it may well have had one but i don't specifically recall it. i was interested in the sight. mr. jenner. had you ever seen this rifle prior to the afternoon of november ? mrs. paine. no. (at this point, senator cooper entered the hearing room.) mr. jenner. now, we do have some particular interest, mrs. paine, in the rifle strap. had you ever had around your house a luggage strap or a guitar strap similar to the strap that appears on commission exhibit ? mrs. paine. no; in fact, i don't recall ever seeing a strap of that nature. mr. jenner. whether in your home or anywhere else? mrs. paine. precisely. mr. jenner. and you are unable to identify or suggest its source? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. what do you have in your home, mrs. paine, by way of heavy wrapping paper? mrs. paine. i have the sort of paper you buy at the dime store to wrap packages, about inches long, coming in a roll. mr. jenner. exhibiting to you commission exhibit no. , is the wrapping paper that you have in your home as heavy as that? mrs. paine. i don't believe it is quite that heavy and it certainly isn't quite that long. well, it could have been cut the otherway, couldn't it, possibly? mr. jenner. what about its shade, color? mrs. paine. it would be similar to that. mr. jenner. similar in shade. do you have the broad banded sticky tape or sticky tape of this nature? mrs. paine. there is no tape this wide in my home nor to my recollection has there ever been. mr. jenner. you have whole rolls of this tape, of the paper in your home? mrs. paine. a whole roll. mr. jenner. a whole roll? mrs. paine. which i use for wrapping packages, mailing. mr. jenner. do you have string in your home that you use in attaching to this wrapping? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. did you by any chance know the weight of the string that wrapped the blanket package as against the strength or weight of the string that you normally used in your home for packages? mrs. paine. it was similar in weight, rather thin. representative ford. color was the same? mrs. paine. i think it was a whitish color on the blanket and one of the rolls i have is that. representative ford. yes. mr. jenner. would you say it was a relatively light package string? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. not a rope type? mrs. paine. oh, no. mr. jenner. and the string you saw on the blanket package was of the lighter weight type and not---- mrs. paine. and of the lighter color too, i think. mr. jenner. and the lighter color. now, you and marina arrived home on the th of september, with the packages and contents of the station wagon, and, save the duffel bags, they were moved into your home, and everybody settled down? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. when next was there--did you hear from lee harvey oswald at any time thereafter? mrs. paine. not until the afternoon of the th, which i have already referred to. mr. jenner. no word whatsoever from him from the th of september? mrs. paine. d we left him in new orleans. mr. jenner. d of september, until the th of october? mrs. paine. that is correct; no word. mr. jenner. by letter, telephone? mrs. paine. or pigeon. mr. jenner. or otherwise, anything whatsoever? mrs. paine. no word. mr. jenner. did you and marina have discussions in that -day period about where lee was or might be? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. none whatsoever? did you have any discussion about the fact that you hadn't heard from lee harvey oswald in days or days? mrs. paine. no; we didn't. mr. jenner. no discussion on that at all. what did you and marina discuss during that -day period? mrs. paine. i can't recall which was during that period or which was after; general conversation. mr. jenner. was it generally small talk, ladies talk about the house? mrs. paine. it was generally what my vocabulary permitted and then she would reminisce, her vocabulary being much larger, about her life in russia, about the movies she had seen. we talked about the children and their health. we talked about washing, about cooking. mr. jenner. did you have ladies visit. did ladies in the neighborhood come and visit? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. did you go to neighbors homes? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. with marina? mrs. paine. again, i can't recall which was before october th and which was after, but there was the normal flow nonetheless---- mr. jenner. and interested people? mrs. paine. of my visiting at other people's homes and particularly mrs. roberts or mrs. craig. mr. jenner. mrs. roberts was your next door neighbor and mrs. craig was how many doors down or across the street? mrs. paine. she is, you have to drive. you have to drive to her home. she is the young german woman to whom i referred. mr. jenner. yes. was there any discussion during this -day period of marina's relations with her husband, lee? mrs. paine. not that i recall. mr. jenner. she expressed no concern during this -day period, that no word had been heard from lee? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. did she evidence any--did she do or say anything during that period to indicate she did not expect to hear from him during that days period? mrs. paine. no; she did not. mr. jenner. there was nothing? mrs. paine. there was nothing. mr. jenner. did it come to your mind that it was curious you hadn't heard from lee harvey oswald for whole days? mrs. paine. no; it didn't seem curious. i know he had spent at least weeks looking for work on previous occasions in different cities and i thought he wanted to find something before he communicated. mr. jenner. but in view of the affection that had been evidenced on the day of departure on the d, you were not bothered by the fact that not even a telephone call had been received in days? mrs. paine. if he was not in town i wouldn't have at all expected a telephone call because that would have cost him dearly. mr. jenner. he might have made it collect. mrs. paine. i didn't expect that either. mr. jenner. but there was no telephone call, there was no postcard, there was no letter? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. there was nothing? mrs. paine. there could well have been a letter but there was none. mr. dulles. where did you think he was at this time? mrs. paine. houston. mr. dulles. houston, looking for a job? houston? mrs. paine. houston, possibly. mr. jenner. because of the conversation on the morning of the d, because of the possibility of his going to houston or philadelphia, your frame of mind was that he was either in houston or philadelphia? mrs. paine. i thought he probably was in houston. the philadelphia reference was very slight. mr. jenner. was there any reference or discussion between you and marina during that period of the possibility that he was off in houston looking for work? mrs. paine. no, there was not. mr. jenner. you are sure there was just no discussion of the subject at all during that whole days period with marina? mrs. paine. i don't recall any discussion of it. mr. jenner. she expressed no concern and you none? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. that nobody had heard from lee. all right. you heard from him on the th of october? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. would you give the commission the circumstances, the time of day and how it came about? mrs. paine. he telephoned in early afternoon, something after lunchtime. mr. jenner. the phone rang. did you answer it? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and did you recognize the voice? mrs. paine. he asked to speak to marina. mr. jenner. whose voice was it? mrs. paine. well, after he asked to speak to marina, i was certain it was lee's. mr. jenner. what did you say? mrs. paine. i said "here" and gave her the phone. mr. jenner. you didn't say "where are you", or "i am glad to hear from you, where have you been?" mrs. paine. no. i thought that was her's to ask. he wished to speak to her and i gave her the phone and, of course, that is what was then asked. i heard her say to him---- mr. jenner. you heard her side of the conversation, did you? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. all right. what did you hear her say? mrs. paine. i heard her say, "no, mrs. paine, she can't come and pick you up." mr. jenner. was she speaking in russian? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. throughout? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. when lee asked for marina, did he speak in english or russian? mrs. paine. i don't recall. and marina went on to say that mrs. paine, "ruth has just been to parkland hospital this morning to donate blood, she shouldn't be going driving now to pick you up." mr. jenner. did she refer to you as mrs. paine or ruth? mrs. paine. no; i am trying to make it clear who is being talked about. mr. jenner. i see. you might give your testimony the wrong cast. mrs. paine. no; of course. she referred to me as "ruth" or "she". to junie, she called me aunt ruth. to junie, speaking of me to her little girl, she referred to me as aunt ruth. mr. jenner. you are giving the conversation now, the end of it that you heard? mrs. paine. yes. then i heard marina say "why didn't you call?" mr. jenner. you did hear her say that? mrs. paine. i believe so. i certainly remember her saying it afterward. she hung up and she explained the conversation to me. mr. jenner. what did she say to you? mrs. paine. that he had asked for me to come in to downtown dallas to pick him up and she said no; he should find his own way. mr. jenner. to come to downtown dallas? mrs. paine. to come to downtown dallas to pick him up, and she never asked me whether i wanted to or would have, told him, no; it was an imposition, that i had just given blood at parkland hospital. mr. jenner. and you had in fact given blood? mrs. paine. oh, yes; indeed. mr. jenner. that morning? mrs. paine. yes. i have a card or the fbi does to that effect. then she said that he had said that he was at the y, staying at the y, and had been in town a couple of days, to which she said, "why didn't you call right away?", in other words, "why didn't you call right away upon getting to town?" then he also asked whether he could come out; this was, of course, during the conversation, and she referred the question to me, could he come out for the weekend, and i said, yes, he could. mr. jenner. this was while she was still talking on the telephone? mrs. paine. yes. prior to his asking for a ride. so then they hung up and i went grocery shopping, and when---- mr. jenner. you left the home? mrs. paine. i left the home. mr. jenner. you have now exhausted your recollection as to everything that was said to you by marina after she hung up and was relating to you, at least a summary of the conversation with her husband? mrs. paine. i believe it was also said that he wanted to look for work in dallas. he was here, staying at the y. could he come out for the weekend. he planned to look for work in dallas. mr. jenner. i see. did you say anything about--were you stimulated to say anything to marina about any of the subject matters of that conversation as she reported it to you? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. you expressed no response, made no response to her having made a statement to her husband that--of her surprise as to why he hadn't called and if he were just over in dallas and staying at the y? mrs. paine. i thought that but i didn't try to put it in russian. mr. jenner. there was no discussion is all i am getting at. what did she say as to his coming out by whatever means he could get there? was there any discussion of that? mrs. paine. it implied whatever means, that he shouldn't ask me to---- mr. jenner. he was coming? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. but that you were not going to go to get him? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and you left and went to the grocery store or market? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. when you returned, was lee at your home? mrs. paine. he was already there, which surprised me greatly. mr. jenner. why did it surprise you? mrs. paine. because i thought he would have to take a public bus to irving, they run very rarely if at all during the afternoon, and i thought he would have considerable difficulty getting out. i thought it would be at least supper time before he got there. mr. jenner. how much time elapsed between the time you left and the time you returned? mrs. paine. shopping? oh, i don't know, perhaps an hour, perhaps a little less. representative ford. where did you go shopping? mrs. paine. the grocery store in the same parking lot where we practiced. mr. jenner. that was three blocks away? mrs. paine. it is a little more than that. these would be long blocks. mr. jenner. did any conversation ensue as to how he had, by what means he had come from dallas to irving? mrs. paine. yes. he then said that he had hitchhiked out, caught a ride with someone who brought him straight to the door, a negro man. mr. jenner. to your door? mrs. paine. yes. to whom he said that he had been away from his wife and child and he was just now getting home, and the man kindly brought him directly to the door. mr. jenner. where did this conversation take place? mrs. paine. in the home that afternoon. mr. jenner. when you returned to your home, that was in the afternoon, wasn't it? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. where was lee harvey oswald? mrs. paine. i don't recall. mr. jenner. was he inside the home or outside? mrs. paine. inside, i believe. mr. jenner. did any conversation ensue as to where he had been in that -day interim? mrs. paine. where he had been? mr. jenner. where he had been in the intervening days? mrs. paine. yes; he said to me that he had been in houston and that he hadn't been able to find work there and was now going to try in dallas. mr. jenner. did he say anything about philadelphia? mrs. paine. nothing. mr. jenner. from your testimony i gather he did not say anything about mexico? mrs. paine. no; he did not. mr. jenner. was marina present when he stated to you that he had been in houston looking for work? mrs. paine. that is my recollection of it; yes. mr. jenner. you never had any conversation with her up to the d or d of november on the subject of whether lee had or had not been in mexico? mrs. paine. we never had such a conversation. mr. jenner. despite your having read that letter on the th of november in which he stated that he had been? mrs. paine. yes. now there was no occasion in that letter that she may have known that he went any more than there was certain indication to my mind that this was true and not false. had i looked at the peso, this would have been the only occasion that she knew. mr. jenner. but the fact is, apart from your rationalization now there was no conversation on that subject? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. how long did he remain in your home? mrs. paine. monday morning---- the chairman. before you get to that, i want to ask a question about giving the blood that day. did you give it for a particular person or for a blood bank? mrs. paine. it was for marina. for each of the persons who come in under county care they ask you to donate two pints of blood, one at a time. the chairman. i see. and you donated one pint for her? mrs. paine. yes. the chairman. thank you. mr. jenner. how long did he remain in your home on this visit? mrs. paine. until monday morning, the th of october, almost noon, in fact, when i took him to an intercity bus at the irving bus station. mr. jenner. this is that bus terminal approximately miles from your home? mrs. paine. that same day i gave him a map to assist him in job hunting. mr. jenner. all right. i would like to get to that. i show you what is in evidence, i don't know whether it is received or not; it is a commission exhibit no. , and ask you if you have ever seen that before? mrs. paine. yes; i have. mr. jenner. is that the map to which you now have reference? mrs. paine. i would say it is. mr. jenner. what did you do with the map with respect to lee harvey oswald on this occasion? mrs. paine. i don't recall who asked, who mentioned a map first, but, of course, i knew, and he did, that it would be a useful thing to have job hunting. i think he asked if i had a map of the city of dallas and i said, yes, i did, and i can easily get another at the gas station, one of these. mr. jenner. mrs. paine, it is your clear recollection that this document, commission exhibit no. , a map, is the map that you gave lee harvey oswald, this was october th? mrs. paine. it was certainly this kind of map, whether it is the identical map, i couldn't say for sure, but i much prefer the enco map of the city and this is the kind i always get to use. so this is the kind i had in mind. mr. jenner. so, to the best of your recollection, the coloring has been changed a little bit because of attempts to draw fingerprints from it? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. but your best recollection now, observing it, is that this is the document? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. would you examine it carefully and see that there might be something on it that would arrest your attention as your having placed thereon or lee? mrs. paine. i have examined this carefully and a copy of it. mr. jenner. on other occasions? mrs. paine. on other occasions, and i could not at any time find a marking that i had made. mr. jenner. do you recall having made any markings? mrs. paine. i do not recall having made any markings on this particular map. sometime on some maps i knew i had made remarks where i was going. mr. jenner. just for the purpose of the record, may i reverse it, and you see no markings on the reverse side, i take it? mrs. paine. no; which is fort worth, not dallas, isn't it? mr. jenner. yes; it is. all right, now tell us about that incident? mrs. paine. the map? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. paine. i have. mr. jenner. that is all there was to it? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. did you suggest, was there any discussion of, particular places of employment? mrs. paine. there was no such discussion. mr. jenner. as to which he might inquire? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. what did he--did you hand him the map? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and was it opened before you and lee in your discussions? mrs. paine. no, no; we didn't discuss. he said, do i have a map, and i said, yes, i do, you may have it. mr. jenner. you handed it to him, and that was all that occurred? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and did he place it in his pocket or did he go into his room or his and marina's room and place it there? mrs. paine. he may have already been on his way to the bus station when this conversation occurred and took it with him. mr. jenner. all right. i notice what appears to be a notation that the document has not as yet been offered in evidence, mr. chairman, and i offer in evidence, therefore, as commission exhibit no. , the document heretofore identified by that exhibit number. mr. mccloy. it may be admitted. (the document referred to, heretofore marked as commission exhibit no. for identification, was received in evidence.) mr. jenner. was marina present during this discussion of his job hunting? mrs. paine. i don't recall. i seem to think we were on our way out already to go in our car to the bus station. mr. jenner. did marina accompany you? mrs. paine. no; she did not. mr. jenner. she did not? mrs. paine. she stayed home with the baby. my children probably went with me, i don't recall specifically. mr. jenner. that is the baby, you mean june? mrs. paine. june. mr. jenner. you drove into the bus terminal approximately miles from your home. did you remain until the bus came along? mrs. paine. i think so. mr. jenner. you saw him depart? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. was anything said about where he would reside in dallas before he left? mrs. paine. i am not certain, but i think he said the y was rather expensive. he was going to look for a room. mr. mccloy. what was the date you took him into the bus station? mrs. paine. that is the th of october. mr. mccloy. the th of october? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. was there an occasion in this early period that you drove him all the way into dallas? mrs. paine. i can't recall ever driving him all the way into dallas. mr. jenner. at any time? mrs. paine. we drove, except to the oak cliff station for this driver training test. mr. jenner. that is the only occasion? mrs. paine. yes; that is the only one i recall. can you refresh my memory. i can't think of any other. mr. jenner. you are clear that you drove him from your home to the bus terminal in irving? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and either you left immediately or waited to see him board the bus, but it is your definite recollection you did not drive him to the dallas downtown area on that occasion? mrs. paine. oh, i did once drive him to the dallas downtown area, because i recall where he got out. now why i was going--yes, i think i may know why i was going. mr. jenner. fix the time first. mrs. paine. i do recall now driving him into downtown dallas because i was already going and it was probably monday, the th of october. mr. jenner. this is the day before his employment began with the texas school book depository? mrs. paine. it would have been days before, the day before he applied. i have several recollections but which day they attach to is not quite as clear. i recall taking him to the bus. i recall picking him up at the bus. i recall going in and dropping him off at a corner of ross avenue and something else, which was near the employment office. mr. jenner. in downtown dallas? mrs. paine. near the employment office station. i was on my way to get a key fixed on my russian typewriter which is what was taking me downtown. i hadn't been thinking--i at no time made a purposeful trip just to take him to downtown dallas, but i was going and he went along and i am pretty sure that was a monday and he got out at that corner and marina was with me and we went on to get this typewriter fixed either to pick it up or to leave it. i am quite certain it was the th, saturday, that i picked him up at the station. mr. jenner. at the bus terminal? mrs. paine. yes. and i am pretty certain that it was the th i took him to the bus station. i recall it being already noon, and i thought he might well have started looking for a job earlier that day. mr. jenner. when next did you hear from mr. oswald? mrs. paine. after the th. probably on the th when he called again to ask if he could come out for the weekend. mr. jenner. the th is what day of the week? mrs. paine. the th is a saturday. mr. jenner. do you recall that he did call? mrs. paine. pardon? mr. jenner. did you recall that he did telephone and ask permission to come? mrs. paine. oh, indeed he did. mr. jenner. did he always do that? mrs. paine. he always did that with the exception of the st of november. mr. jenner. we will get to that in a very few moments. mr. mccloy. before you get to that you said you went all the way into dallas with this errand, that marina was with you. mrs. paine. that is my recollection. mr. mccloy. what did you do with the children? mrs. paine. we always take them. mr. mccloy. took them all, put them all in the station wagon? mrs. paine. yes; big station wagon. mr. jenner. by the way, i would like to go back a little. when you picked him up at the bus station on the afternoon of the th of october, what did he have---- mrs. paine. on the afternoon of the th, around noon of the th. mr. jenner. please, when he first returned to irving after---- mrs. paine. he hitchhiked out. mr. jenner. on the occasion that he told you he had been in houston looking for a job? mrs. paine. the th, he hitchhiked out. mr. jenner. yes. it is that occasion that i have in mind. what did he have with him in the way of luggage? mrs. paine. i don't recall certainly. it does seem to me that i remember he took the zipper bag on monday, the following monday, with him to town, along with some clothes over his arm, ironed shirts, things that are hung on hangers. mr. jenner. with respect to that trip---- mrs. paine. you must remember i was shopping when he arrived on the afternoon of the th. mr. jenner. yes. mrs. paine. so i didn't see him when he arrived that moment. mr. jenner. but you do have a recollection of having seen the zipper bag on monday? mrs. paine. the th. mr. jenner. when you took him to the bus terminal for the purpose of his returning to downtown dallas? mrs. paine. to find a room and live there and have sufficient clothing there. that is my best recollection. mr. jenner. is that the first time you had seen the zipper bag? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. from the time you had left new orleans on the d? mrs. paine. so far as i recall. mr. jenner. did you notice anything else in the way of pieces of luggage in your home after you came back from the shopping center that afternoon of october th that hadn't been there prior to his arrival? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. the only piece of luggage of which you have any recollection then is the zipper bag which you saw him take with him when he left on monday morning, the th? mrs. paine. and that is, i would not say a certain recollection. but that is the best i have. mr. jenner. it is your best recollection anyhow? mrs paine. yes. mr. jenner. now, when you returned to your home did you have any discussion with marina about lee's departure and his future plans and her understanding of them? mrs. paine. no; nothing i recall specifically. mr. jenner. none at all. what discussion went on between you and marina, that is the subject matter with respect to his weekend visits? mrs. paine. she wanted to be certain it was all right for him to come out, you know that it wasn't too much of an imposition on me. we got into discussing his efforts to find a job. then monday, the th as best as i recall, was the first time we talked about him, more than to say it was too bad he didn't find something. this is the---- mr. jenner. during the course of the week was there discussion between you and marina respecting lee oswald's attempt at employment? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. now, there came an occasion, did there not, that weekend or the following weekend at which there was a discussion at least by you with some neighbors with respect to efforts to obtain employment for lee harvey oswald? mrs. paine. as best i can reconstruct it this was, while having coffee at my immediate neighbors, mrs. ed roberts, and also present was mrs. bill randle, and lee had said over the weekend that he had gotten the last of the unemployment compensation checks that were due him, and that it had been smaller than the others had been, and disappointing in its smallness and he looked very discouraged when he went to look for work. mr. jenner. did he say anything about amount? mrs. paine. i didn't hear the question. mr. jenner. did he say anything about amount? mrs. paine. no; he didn't, just less. mr. jenner. all right. mrs. paine. and the subject of his looking for work and that he hadn't found work for a week, came up while we were having coffee, the four young mothers at mrs. roberts' house, and mrs. randle mentioned that her younger brother, wesley frazier thought they needed another person at the texas school book depository where wesley worked. marina then asked me, after we had gone home, asked me if i would call---- mr. jenner. was marina present during this discussion? mrs. paine. yes; marina was present, yes, indeed. mr. jenner. did she understand the conversation? mrs. paine. it was a running translation, running, faulty translation going on. mr. jenner. you were translating for her? mrs. paine. i was acting as her translator. and then after we came home she asked me if i would call the school book depository to see if indeed there was the possibility of an opening, and at her request, i did telephone---- mr. jenner. excuse me, please. mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. while you were still in the roberts' home was there any discussion at all of the subject mentioned by you or by mrs. randle or mrs. roberts or anyone else, of calls to be made, or that might be made, to the texas school book depository in this connection? mrs. paine. i don't recall this discussion. as i recall it was a suggestion made by marina to me after we got home, but i may be wrong. mr. jenner. but that is your best recollection that you are now testifying to? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. is that correct? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. you reached home and marina suggested that "would you please call the texas school depository?" mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. what did you do? mrs. paine. i looked up the number in the book, and dialed it, was told i would need to speak to mr. truly, who was at the warehouse. the phone was taken to mr. truly, and i talked with him and said---- mr. jenner. you mean the call was transferred by the operator? mrs. paine. to mr. truly, and i said i know of a young man whose wife was staying in my house, the wife was expecting a child, they already had a little girl and he had been out of work for a while and was very interested in getting any employment and his name, and was there a possibility of an opening there, and mr. truly said he didn't know whether he had an opening, that the young man should apply himself in person. mr. jenner. which made sense. mrs. paine. made very good sense for a personnel man to say. mr. jenner. did you make more than one call to this texas school book depository? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. only the one? mrs. paine. only the one. mr. jenner. what was the date of this call? mrs. paine. reconstructing it, i believe it was october . mr. jenner. what day of the week is october ? mrs. paine. it is a monday. mr. jenner. following that call and your talking with mr. truly, what did you do? mrs. paine. began to get dinner. then lee call the house. mr. jenner. in the evening? mrs. paine. in the early evening. mr. jenner. did you talk with him? mrs. paine. marina talked with him, then asked--then marina asked me to tell lee in english what had transpired regarding the possible job opening, and then i did say that there might be an opening in the school book depository, that mr. truly was the man to apply to. shall i go on? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. paine. the next day---- mr. jenner. excuse me, i meant go on as far as the conversation was concerned. mrs. paine. that is all there was. mr. jenner. mrs. paine, i would like to return just for a moment to the conversation in the roberts' home. was any possible place of employment in addition to the texas school depository mentioned? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. you have no recollection of any other suggestion as to possible places of employment? mrs. paine. i have no recollection of that. mr. jenner. you have no recollection of any other, at least two other places being suggested, and you, in turn, stating that they would be unsatisfactory, one because an automobile had to be used, or it would be necessary for lee to have an automobile, and the other that he was lacking in the possible qualifications needed? none of that refreshes your recollection? mrs. paine. none of that refreshes my recollection. i certainly know that i thought, for instance, he couldn't have applied to bell helicopter or to any place apart from the city area. mr. jenner. but bell helicopter was not mentioned? mrs. paine. i don't recall it being mentioned. mr. jenner. your husband is employed by bell helicopter, is he not? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. had you made an inquiry of your husband as to the possibility of employment by lee harvey oswald with bell helicopter? mrs. paine. no; i hadn't, especially knowing that he had no way of getting there. mr. jenner. unless he knew how to drive a car? mrs. paine. unless he knew how to drive a car. mr. jenner. you didn't believe he was proficient enough at this moment to operate it? mrs. paine. we have got on record here that i gave him the first lesson on the th of october. mr. jenner. and in any event were you aware he had no driver's license? mrs. paine. i certainly was. mr. jenner. especially that week? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. did you give him the telephone number and the address of the texas school book depository on the occasion when you talked to him, this is the th? mrs. paine. the address, i don't think so. i probably gave the phone number. i don't recall that i gave him an address. mr. jenner. directing your attention to your address book, you have an entry in your address book of the texas school depository, do you not? would you turn to that page? mrs. paine. yes; i have it here. mr. jenner. is there an entry of address of the texas school depository on that page? mrs. paine. yes; which i believe i made after he gained employment there. mr. jenner. rather than at the time that you advised him of this possibility? mrs. paine. indeed. mr. jenner. have you made an entry of the telephone number of the texas school book depository on that date? mrs. paine. yes; i have and of the address. mr. jenner. and that is the telephone number and the address of the texas school depository building where---- mrs. paine. on elm street. mr. jenner. i heard you mention the texas school depository warehouse. did you think the warehouse was at elm? mrs. paine. no. i had seen a sign on a building as i went along one of the limited access highways that leads into dallas, saying "texas school book depository warehouse" and there was the only building that had registered on my consciousness as being texas school book depository. i was not aware, hadn't taken in the idea of there being two buildings and that there was one on elm, though, i copied the address from the telephone book, and could well have made that notation in my mind but i didn't. the first i realized that there was a building on elm was when i heard on the television on the morning of the d of november that a shot had been fired from such a building. mr. jenner. for the purpose of this record then i would like to emphasize you were under the impression then, were you, that lee harvey oswald was employed? mrs. paine. at the warehouse. mr. jenner. other than at , a place at elm? mrs. paine. i thought he worked at the warehouse. i had in fact, pointed out the building to my children going into dallas later after he had gained employment. mr. jenner. did you ever discuss with lee harvey oswald where he actually was employed, that is the location of the building? mrs. paine. no; i didn't. mr. jenner. did he ever mention it? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. there never was any discussion between you and, say, young mr. frazier or mrs. randle or anyone in the neighborhood as to where the place of employment is located? mrs. paine. no. it may be significant here to say, my letter to which i have already referred---- mr. jenner. commission exhibit no.---- mrs. paine. , which says, "lee oswald is looking for work in dallas," does not give a time of day. mr. jenner. what is the date of that letter? mrs. paine. october , monday. mr. jenner. this is the letter to your mother? mrs. paine. but i don't normally write letters any time except when the children are asleep, they sometimes nap but usually this is in the evening. if it were in the evening it means that he had gotten the suggestion as to a place to apply, but i didn't mention that. i only mentioned that he was looking and was discouraged. i bring this out simply to say that i had no real hopes that he would get a job at the school book depository. i didn't think it too likely that he would, but it was worth a try. mr. jenner. did you hear from him then either on the th or th in respect to his effort to obtaining employment at the texas school depository? mrs. paine. he called immediately on tuesday, the th, after he had been accepted and said he would start work the next day. mr. jenner. when you say immediately, what time of day was that? mrs. paine. midmorning i would say, which was contrary to his usual practice of calling in the early evening. mr. jenner. by the way, is the call from dallas, tex., to irving a toll call? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. what is its cost, cents? mrs. paine. i expect so. mr. jenner. did you answer the phone on the occasion he called? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. what happened? mrs. paine. he asked for marina. mr. jenner. he said nothing to you about his success? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. as soon as you answered he asked for marina? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. did he identify himself? mrs. paine. no; but i am certain he knew that i knew who he was. mr. jenner. you recognized his voice, did you? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. you called her to the phone. did you hear her end of the conversation? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. what took place by way of of conversation? mrs. paine. she said, "hurray, he has got a job." immediately telling me as she still talked to the telephone that he had been accepted for work at the school book depository and thanks to me and she said, "we must thank mrs. randle." mr. jenner. did you return to the telephone and speak with him? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. you did not. where was he residing then, did you know? mrs. paine. no; i did not know. mr. jenner. had you had any information that he was not residing at the ymca? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. how did you come by that information? mrs. paine. he gave me a telephone number, possibly this same weekend. mr. jenner. that is of importance, mrs. paine. would you give us the circumstances, please? mrs. paine. he said that he was at a---- mr. jenner. excuse me, where was he when he said this? mrs. paine. he was at the home so far as i remember. it might have been during one of his telephone calls to the house, but i don't think so. he rarely talked with me when he was out. mr. jenner. this would be the weekend of what? mrs. paine. so this must have been the weekend of the th of october, the same weekend. mr. jenner. that was the weekend following his return to dallas on the th of october? mrs. paine. fourth of october. mr. jenner. he departed on the th. mrs. paine. his return to dallas, i am sorry. mr. jenner. yes; now, give it as chronologically as you can; how you came by that telephone number, the circumstances under which it was given to you. mrs. paine. he said this is the telephone number. mr. jenner. was marina present? mrs. paine. yes. he said of the room where he was staying, renting a room, and i could reach him here if she went into labor. mr. jenner. i see, the coming of the baby was imminent? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. when was the baby expected? mrs. paine. any time after the first week in october. any time, in other words. mr. jenner. the obstetrician predicted the birth of the child as when? mrs. paine. as due on the d. mr. jenner. did marina have a different notion? mrs. paine. she thought it might be due around the th. mr. jenner. so there was a considerable variance in the expectation between the date and when the baby actually did arrive? when did the baby actually arrive? mrs. paine. on the th of october, a sunday. mr. jenner. did he give you more than one telephone number? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. at this occasion did he give you more than one telephone number? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. just stick to this particular occasion. what telephone number--did you record it? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. in what? mrs. paine. in ink in my telephone book. mr. jenner. your telephone and address book? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. have you opened that telephone address book to the page in which you have made that recording? mrs. paine. yes; i have. mr. jenner. is that the page you identified yesterday? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. excuse me, mr. chairman, may i examine it for a moment here. now, relate for the record the telephone number that mr. oswald gave you, the first one he gave you on this particular occasion? mrs. paine. the number was wh - . mr. jenner. and that is at the bottom of the page written in ink. mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. is that in your handwriting? mrs. paine. yes; it is. mr. jenner. what exchange is "wh" in dallas? mrs. paine. i don't know. i did not know. i know now, maybe i know, whitehall, something. i know now what it is, but i didn't know then. mr. jenner. did he on that occasion say anything about where the apartment or room was? mrs. paine. no; he did not. mr. jenner. he did not give you an address? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. didn't locate it in any area in dallas? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. all he gave you was the telephone number? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. did he say anything that would indicate to you that you are other than free to call him and ask for him by his surname you knew him by? mrs. paine. no; he did not make such a limitation. mr. jenner. i take it from your testimony that the number was given to you, at least the discussion was, so that you could call him in connection with the oncoming event of the birth of his child? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. am i correct about this? mrs. paine. that is correct. mr. jenner. now, you have mentioned a second number that mr. oswald, lee harvey oswald, gave you. did you receive that second number subsequent to the birth of rachel or prior to that time? mrs. paine. also prior to the birth of rachel. mr. jenner. now, relate for the commission the circumstances under which you received a second number? mrs. paine. he gave me a second number, i suppose by phone, but i don't recall. mr. jenner. when? mrs. paine. it was certainly before the birth of the baby because again it was so that i could reach him if she went to the hospital. mr. jenner. he called you or related this to you in your home? mrs. paine. what? mr. jenner. he either called you by telephone or he was present in your home and gave you the second number? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. which recollection serves you best, that he called or that he gave it to you in your home? mrs. paine. i don't recall. mr. jenner. what did he say? mrs. paine. he said he moved to different rooms, was paying a dollar a week more, $ instead of $ ; incidentally, i needed to know how much he was paying in order to put this on the form of parkland hospital, but that it was a little more comfortable and he had television privileges and privileges to use the refrigerator. and he gave me this number. mr. jenner. this was after he obtained employment with the texas school book depository, was it? mrs. paine. i would rationalize that i have judged so. mr. jenner. is it your best recollection? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. on the second occasion did he give you the location or even the area in dallas where his second room was located? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. did you inquire of him? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. no address? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. was the telephone number given you with any reservation as to when you might call him? mrs. paine. no such reservation. mr. jenner. any indication that you should ask him, asking for him by other than his surname by which you knew him? mrs. paine. no such indication. mr. jenner. now, the baby was born on the---- mrs. paine. twentieth. mr. jenner. twentieth of october. was lee present, in town, i mean? mrs. paine. he was at the house in irving when labor began, and stayed at the house to take care of june and my two children who were sleeping while i took marina to the hospital since i was the one who could drive. mr. jenner. all right. the th is--when did you take her to the hospital? mrs. paine. around o'clock in the evening. mr. jenner. what day? mrs. paine. sunday, the th of october. mr. jenner. and lee harvey oswald was out there on that weekend on one of his regular visits? mrs. paine. yes. the first one since he had employment. representative ford. did you ever call either one of those numbers? mrs. paine. yes. we will get to it. mr. jenner. you will forgive me because i would like to bring out the particular circumstances of the call. representative ford. yes. mr. jenner. did lee go back into town on monday to go to work? mrs. paine. yes; he did. i informed him in the morning that he had a baby girl. he was already asleep when i got back--no; that is not right. he was not asleep when i got back from the hospital, but he had gone to bed, and i stayed up and waited to call the hospital to hear what word there was. so, that i knew after he was already asleep that he had a baby girl. i told him in the morning before he went to work. mr. jenner. you called him in dallas? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. i am a little confused. mrs. paine. no; i am sorry, i will begin again. i took her to the hospital and then i returned. i didn't feel i could stay. i thought i should get back to my children. mr. jenner. this was sunday night. mrs. paine. sunday night. he went to bed, put junie to bed. i stayed up and waited until what i considered a proper time and then called the hospital to hear what news there was. they had implied i could come and visit, too, but that would have been incorrect, and learned that he had a baby girl. i then went to bed and told him in the morning. mr. jenner. you did not awaken him then? mrs. paine. i did not awaken him. i thought about it and i decided if he was not interested in being awake i would tell him in the morning. mr. jenner. and the morning was monday? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. having learned that he was the father of a baby girl, i assume you told him that? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. did he go to work that day? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. did he return to irving that evening? mrs. paine. yes. it was agreed when he left that he would return that evening. mr. jenner. how did he--was he brought back to irving that evening? mrs. paine. i imagine wesley brought him. mr. jenner. at least you did not? mrs. paine. i did not. mr. jenner. did he visit with marina at the hospital that evening? mrs. paine. when he arrived it was not decided whether he would go to the hospital or not. he thought not, and i thought he should, and encouraged him to go. mr. jenner. why did he think he ought not to go? mrs. paine. i am uncertain about this. this thought crossed my mind that perhaps he thought they would find out he was working, but i had already told them he was working since i had been asked at the hospital when she was admitted and i mentioned this and it may have changed his mind about going, but this is conjecture on my part. mr. jenner. in any event he did go? mrs. paine. he did go. it was a good thing as he was the only one admitted, i was not either a father or grandmother so i was not permitted to get in. mr. jenner. i see, and you waited until his visit was over and returned home with him? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. did he return to work the next morning? mrs. paine. yes; he did. mr. jenner. when next did you hear from him? mrs. paine. the following friday he came out again. mr. jenner. do you know how he returned to dallas that following morning, that is the d? mrs. paine. probably went with wesley also. mr. jenner. and he came out the following weekend, did he? mrs. paine. yes. that was his birthday. mr. jenner. the th of october is his birthday. did you have a party for him? mrs. paine. we had a cake; yes, sir. mr. jenner. was that weekend uneventful? mrs. paine. well, marina was already home. mr. jenner. the baby was now home. she came home very quickly? mrs. paine. very quickly, a day and a half. she was home on tuesday, the th, is that right--skipped a day, the d. so that his party was the week before, too. i was wrong then. mr. jenner. when did he return, on friday of that week? mrs. paine. yes, which was the th. i was mistaken. mr. jenner. did he call in each day in the interim? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and talk to marina and to you? mrs. paine. well, to marina. mr. jenner. inquire about the baby? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. you overheard some of the conversation? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. was anything said about the nature of his reaction to his position at the texas school book depository on the second weekend when he came home? mrs. paine. you are talking about the weekend of the th? mr. jenner. that is right. mrs. paine. no; i don't recall anything being said. mr. jenner. now, the next weekend was november st to d, which is friday to sunday, is that correct? mrs. paine. right. mr. jenner. was he home on that weekend? mrs. paine. yes; he was. mr. jenner. and did anything eventful occur on that weekend? mrs. paine. just a minute. what i was looking for, i wanted to find out whether i had taught a russian lesson to my single student whom i saw some saturday afternoon on that weekend, and i recall that i did not. so, the answer is no. i was there that saturday. may i say if there was a weekend other than october when he came on saturday instead of friday night, it was to have been that weekend? mr. jenner. which weekend? mrs. paine. the weekend of the st to the d. that is my best recollection anyway. mr. jenner. all right. but other than that possibility, there was nothing--it was a normal weekend at your home? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. now, following that weekend, which was the weekend of november through , i think you have already described that weekend. that was the one on which you went to the texas driver's application bureau, is it not? mrs. paine. yes. i recall him writing something on the early morning of saturday--this "dear sirs" letter. mr. jenner. yes; this is the letter or draft of letter dealing with his reporting his visit to mexico. mrs. paine. or stating that he had done such a thing, which i did not fully credit. mr. jenner. did he come the following weekend, that is the weekend of november through ? mrs. paine. no; he did not. mr. jenner. why? mrs. paine. marina asked him not to. mr. jenner. this was the weekend preceding the ill-fated assassination day? mrs. paine. that is correct. mr. jenner. why did she ask him not to? mrs. paine. she felt he had overstayed his welcome the previous weekend which had been days, th, th, and th because he was off veterans day, the th of november, and she felt it would be simpler and more comfortable if he didn't come out. mr. jenner. had you had a discussion with her prior to that time on that subject? mrs. paine. i had not suggested that to her. mr. jenner. did you overhear her tell him that? mrs. paine. i did tell her i was planning a birthday party for my little girl, and i heard her tell lee not to come out because i was having a birthday party. at some point in this same telephone conversation likely i told him he did not need to have a car but to go himself to the driver training station. mr. jenner. you have described that event for us heretofore this afternoon. mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. or this morning, i have forgotten which. mr. mccloy. may i interrupt here. i wonder whether or not you would want to take a rest now. we have been pretty arduous and let's take a little recess now. (short recess.) mr. jenner. mr. reporter, would you read the last interchange or question and answer? (the reporter read the question and answer.) mr. jenner. would you fix as best you can for us, the date or time that you first saw the wrapped blanket after you had returned to irving? how long after that event did you see it to the best of your recollection? mrs. paine. i have said it was the latter part of october. i don't think i can fix it more exactly. mr. jenner. that would be almost or would be over a month afterwards? you returned on september ? mrs. paine. i don't recall thinking, that is, that anything like that marks it as being particular noticeable. so that i am judging that i recall seeing it in october, somewhere towards the end. mr. jenner. had anything occurred at that time that now leads you to fix it at the latter part of october? mrs. paine. no; there is no way that i have to fix it. mr. jenner. did you stumble over it or something? mr. mccloy. could it have been as early as october or the th when you first got the call from him when he first returned to dallas? mrs. paine. conceivably, but i don't remember. mr. dulles. then you saw it on another occasion, how many days later was that? mrs. paine. i can't fix it that near. mr. dulles. it was several days later, was it, the time when it seemed to have been moved from position "x" to position "xx"? mrs. paine. oh, yes; that was later. mr. mccloy. can you place it at all, can you place your recollection at all as having seen it in relation to the assassination? the date of the assassination? was it weeks before, weeks before? mrs. paine. i have inquired of myself for some weeks, was such a package in my station wagon when i arrived from new orleans, and i cannot recall it, but i cannot be at all certain that there wasn't. i certainly didn't unload it. i never lifted such a package. mr. jenner. only you and marina took things out of your station wagon at that time? mrs. paine. that is correct. mr. jenner. and you did not---- mrs. paine. so i think i would have seen it. mr. dulles. in your earlier testimony i think in reply to a question, you indicated that you and marina had only talked about this after the assassination that afternoon. mrs. paine. that is right. mr. dulles. if it is not out of order, i would like to get that into the testimony maybe at this date what took place between them at that time. mr. jenner. on the d? mr. dulles. yes. mr. mccloy. i think it is best to leave it at the d. mr. jenner. i was going to take her chronologically. mr. dulles. just so you recall that. mr. mccloy. but you can't recall having gone into the garage for any purpose and having stepped over this thing or around it at any time that you would associate with his return from new orleans and houston, if he went to houston? mrs. paine. my best recollection is that it was after, it was in october, therefore. mr. mccloy. but later than the th of october, you think? mrs. paine. later than that, yes. that is the best i can do. mr. mccloy. but well before the day of november ? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. i think i have oriented myself without having the reporter read and may i proceed, mr. chairman? mr. mccloy. surely. mr. jenner. we have now reached the weekend of the th, th, and th, which is the weekend that lee harvey oswald did not return to your home. mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. you had just finished relating that marina had told him not to come that particular weekend? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. now, was there an occasion during the course of that weekend when a phone call was made to lee harvey oswald. i direct your attention particularly to sunday evening, the th of november. mrs. paine. looking back on it, i thought that there was a call made to him by me on monday the th, but i may be wrong about when it was made. mr. jenner. did marina call him this sunday evening, november ? mrs. paine. no. there was only one call made at any one time to him, to my knowledge. mr. jenner. do you recall an occasion when a call was made to him and you girls were unable to reach him when that call was made? mrs. paine. yes. i will describe the call, and there is a dispute over what night it was. mr. jenner. i would like your best recollection, first as to when it occurred. was it during the weekend that he did not return to your home, the weekend immediately preceding the assassination day? do you recall that marina was lonesome and she wished you to make a call to lee and you did so at her request? mrs. paine. i recall certainly we had talked with lee, on the telephone already that weekend because he called to say that he had been to attempt to get a driver's license permit. mr. jenner. yes. mrs. paine. whether he called that saturday or whether he had called sunday, i am not certain. indeed, i am not certain but what he had called the very day, had already called and talked with marina the very day that i then, at her request, tried to reach him at the number he had given me, with his number in my telephone book. junie was fooling with the telephone dial, and marina said, "let's call papa" and asked me---- mr. jenner. was this at night? mrs. paine. it was early evening, still light. mr. jenner. was it on a weekend? mrs. paine. i would have said it was monday but i am not certain of that. mr. jenner. was it---- mrs. paine. that is my best recollection, is that it was monday. mr. jenner. all we want is your best recollection. if it was a monday, was it the monday following the weekend that he did not come? mrs. paine. yes, certainly it was. mr. jenner. i see. that is if it was a monday, it was the monday preceding november ? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. all right. mr. dulles. could i ask one question? mr. jenner. yes. mr. dulles. was there any evidence that the hint you gave, or that was given, to lee harvey not to come over this weekend caused him any annoyance? was he put out by this, and did he indicate it? mrs. paine. i made no such request of him. marina talked with him on the phone. mr. dulles. i realize that. mrs. paine. and she made no mention of any irritation. of course, i didn't hear what he said in response to her asking him not to come. mr. dulles. and it didn't come out in any of these subsequent telephone messages which we are now discussing? mrs. paine. no; i think i probably talked with him during that same telephone conversation to say that he could go without a car, and there was no irritation i noticed. mr. dulles. thank you. mr. jenner. but it is your definite recollection that his failure to come on the weekend preceding the assassination was not at his doing but at the request of marina, under the circumstances you have related? mrs. paine. i am absolutely clear about that. mr. jenner. you are absolutely clear about that. all right. now, state, you began to state the circumstances of the telephone call. would you in your own words and your own chronology proceed with that, please? mrs. paine. marina had said, "let's call papa," in russian and asked me to dial the number for her, knowing that i had a number that he had given us. i then dialed the number---- mr. jenner. excuse me, did you dial the first or the second number? mrs. paine. the second number. mr. jenner. and that number is? mrs. paine. wh - . mr. jenner. when you dialed the number did someone answer? mrs. paine. someone answered and i said, "is lee oswald there?" and the person replied, "there is no lee oswald here," or something to that effect. mr. jenner. would it refresh your recollection if he said, "there is nobody by that name here"? mrs. paine. or it may have been "nobody by that name" or "i don't know lee oswald." it could have been any of these. mr. jenner. we want your best recollection. mrs. paine. my best recollection is that he repeated the name. mr. jenner. he repeated the name? mrs. paine. but that is not a certain recollection. mr. jenner. i take it then from the use of the pronoun that the person who answered was a man? mrs. paine. was a man. mr. jenner. and if you will just sit back and relax a little. i would like to have you restate, if you now will, in your own words, what occurred? you dialed the telephone, someone answered, a male voice? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. what did he say and what did you say? mrs. paine. i said, "is lee oswald there." he said, "there is no lee oswald living here." as best as i can recall. this is the substance of what he said. i said, "is this a rooming house." he said "yes." i said, "is this wh - ?" and he said "yes." i thanked him and hung up. mr. jenner. when you hung up then what did you next do or say? mrs. paine. i said to marina, "they don't know of a lee oswald at that number." mr. jenner. what did she say? mrs. paine. she didn't say anything. mr. jenner. just said nothing? mrs. paine. she looked surprised. mr. jenner. did she evidence any surprise? mrs. paine. yes; she did, she looked surprised. mr. dulles. you are quite sure you used the first name "lee," did you, you did not say just "mr. oswald," or something of that kind? mrs. paine. i would not say "mr. oswald." it is contrary to quaker practice, and i don't normally do it that way. mr. jenner. contrary to quaker practice? mrs. paine. they seldom use "mister." mr. jenner. i see. mr. dulles. and you wouldn't have said "harvey oswald," would you? mrs. paine. i knew he had a middle name but only because i filled out forms in parkland hospital. it was never used with him. mr. jenner. you do recall definitely that you asked for lee oswald? mrs. paine. i cannot be that definite. but i believe i asked for him. oh, yes; i recall definitely what i asked. i cannot be definite about the man's reply, whether he included the full name in his reply. mr. jenner. but you did? mrs. paine. i asked for the full name, "is lee oswald there." mr. jenner. did you report this incident to the fbi? mrs. paine. i had no occasion to see them, and i did not think it important enough to call them after that until the d of november. mr. jenner. perhaps i may well have deferred that question until after i asked you the next. mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. did any event occur the following day with respect to this telephone call? mrs. paine. yes; lee called---- mr. jenner. what was it? mrs. paine. lee called at the house and asked for marina. i was in the kitchen where the phone is while marina talked with him, she clearly was upset, and angry, and when she hung up---- mr. jenner. excuse me, did you overhear this conversation? mrs. paine. i overheard the conversation but i can't tell you specific content. mr. jenner. please, mrs. paine, would you do your very best to recall what was said? mrs. paine. i can tell you what she said to me which was immediately after, which is what i definitely recall. mr. jenner. thank you. mrs. paine. she said immediately he didn't like her trying to reach him at the phone in his room at dallas yesterday. that he was angry with her for having tried to reach him. that he said he was using a different name, and she said, "this isn't the first time i felt fires," a russian expression. mr. jenner. this is something she said? mrs. paine. she said this. this is not the first time, but it was the first time she had mentioned it to me. mr. jenner. give her exact words to me again. mrs. paine. when she felt fires. mr. jenner. that is the expression she used? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. did you understand what she meant or, if not, did you ask for an explanation? mrs. paine. i did not ask for an explanation. i judged she meant, she disagreed with his using a different name, but didn't feel like, empowered to make him do otherwise or even perhaps ask to as a wife. mr. dulles. how long a conversation was this. was it---- mrs. paine. fairly short. mr. dulles. fairly short. mrs. paine. that is my recollection. representative ford. what day of the month and what day of the week was this? mrs. paine. well, reconstructing it, i thought they succeeded each other, the original call to the wh number on monday and his call back on tuesday. representative ford. when he called back it was late in the afternoon or early evening? mrs. paine. it was the normal time for him to call back, early evening, around : . mr. jenner. you have a definite impression she was angry when she hung up? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. was she abrupt in her hanging up. did she hang up on him? mrs. paine. no; she was angry, she was upset. mr. jenner. and her explanation of her being upset was that he used the assumed name? mrs. paine. well, she didn't explain it as such, but she said he had used it. mr. jenner. he was angry with her because you had made the call? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. or she had made it through you? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. did any further discussion take place between you and marina on that subject? mrs. paine. yes. the following day he did not call at the usual time. mr. jenner. that would be the following day, the th? mrs. paine. i believe that was a wednesday and that is how i slipped a day. mr. jenner. he didn't call at all on the succeeding day? mrs. paine. he didn't call at all, and she said to me as the time for normally calling passed, "he thinks he is punishing me." mr. jenner. for what? mrs. paine. for having been a bad wife, i would judge, for having done something he didn't want her to do, the objection. mr. jenner. to wit, the telephone call about which you have told us? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. did you and marina go through a normal day that day, or was there any other subject of discussion with respect to lee oswald on that day? mrs. paine. nothing i would specifically recall; no. mr. jenner. this was the th of november, a wednesday? mrs. paine. to the best of my recollection. mr. jenner. let's proceed with the st. did anything occur on the st with respect to lee harvey oswald, that is a thursday? mrs. paine. i arrived home from grocery shopping around : , and he was on the front lawn. i was surprised to see him. mr. jenner. you had no advance notice? mrs. paine. i had no advance notice and he had never before come without asking whether he could. mr. jenner. never before had he come to your home in that form without asking your permission to come? mrs. paine. without asking permission; that is right. mr. jenner. and he was out on the lawn as you drove up, on your lawn? mrs. paine. that is right. playing with june and talking with marina, who was also out on the lawn. mr. jenner. and you were, of course, surprised to see him? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. did you park your car in the driveway as usual? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. did you walk over to speak with him? mrs. paine. yes, got out, very likely picked some groceries out of the car and he very likely picked some up too, and this is i judge what may have happened. mr. jenner. tell the commission what was said between you and lee oswald? mrs. paine. between me and lee oswald? mr. jenner. yes; on that occasion. mrs. paine. that is not what i recall. i recall talking with marina on the side. mr. jenner. first. didn't you greet him? mrs. paine. yes; i greeted him. mr. jenner. and then what did you do, walk in the house? mrs. paine. as we were walking in the house, and he must have preceded because marina and i spoke in private to one another, she apologized. mr. jenner. was marina out on the lawn also? mrs. paine. yes, sir. she apologized for his having come without permission and i said that was all right, and we said either then or later--i recall exchanging our opinion that this was a way of making up the quarrel or as close as he could come to an apology for the fight on the telephone, that his coming related to that, rather than anything else. mr. jenner. that was her reaction to his showing up uninvited and unexpectedly on that particular afternoon, was it? mrs. paine. well, it was rather my own, too. mr. jenner. and it was your own? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and because of this incident of the telephone call and your not being able to reach him, and the subsequent talk between lee and marina in which there had been some anger expressed, you girls reached the conclusion the afternoon of november that he was home just to see if he could make up with marina? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. do i fairly state it? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. what did you do that evening? did you have occasion to note what he did? mrs. paine. we had dinner as usual, and then i sort of bathed my children, putting them to bed and reading them a story, which put me in one part of the house. when that was done i realized he had already gone to bed, this being now about o'clock. i went out to the garage to paint some children's blocks, and worked in the garage for half an hour or so. i noticed when i went out that the light was on. mr. jenner. the light was on in the garage? mrs. paine. the light was on in the garage. mr. jenner. was this unusual? mrs. paine. oh, it was unusual for it to be on; yes. i realized that i felt lee, since marina had also been busy with her children, had gone out to the garage, perhaps worked out there or gotten something. most of their clothing was still out there, all of their winter things. they were getting things out from time to time, warmer things for the cold weather, so it was not at all remarkable that he went to the garage, but i thought it careless of him to have left the light on. i finished my work and then turned off the light and left the garage. mr. jenner. have you completed that now? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. you stated that he was in the garage, how did you know he was in the garage? mr. mccloy. she didn't state that. mrs. paine. i didn't state it absolutely. i guessed it was he rather than she. she was busy with the children and the light had been on and i know i didn't leave the light on. mr. jenner. then, i would ask you directly, did you see him in the garage at anytime from the time you first saw him on the lawn until he retired for the night? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. until you retired for the night? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. was he out on the lawn after dinner or supper? mrs. paine. i don't believe so. mr. jenner. did you hear any activity out in the garage on that evening? mrs. paine. no; i did not. mr. jenner. any persons moving about? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. the only thing that arrested your attention was the fact that you discovered the light on in the garage? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. before you retired? representative ford. you discovered that when you went out to work there? mrs. paine. when i went out to work there. mr. mccloy. when you went out there, did you notice the blanket? mrs. paine. i don't recall specifically seeing the blanket. i certainly recall on the afternoon of the d where it had been. mr. dulles. was there any evidence of any quarreling or any harsh words between lee harvey and marina that evening that you know of? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. was there a coolness between them? mrs. paine. he went to bed very early, she stayed up and talked with me some, but there was no coolness that i noticed. he was quite friendly on the lawn as we---- mr. jenner. i mean coolness between himself and--between lee and marina. mrs. paine. i didn't notice any such coolness. rather, they seemed warm, like a couple making up a small spat, i should interject one thing here, too, that i recall as i entered the house and lee had just come in, i said to him, "our president is coming to town." and he said, "ah, yes," and walked on into the kitchen, which was a common reply from him on anything. i was just excited about this happening, and there was his response. nothing more was said about it. mr. dulles. i didn't quite catch his answer. mrs. paine. "ah, yes," a very common answer. mr. jenner. he gave no more than that laconic answer? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. had there been any discussion between you and marina that the president was coming into town the next day? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. did she say anything on that subject in the presence of lee that evening? mrs. paine. i don't recall anything of that sort. mr. jenner. what time did you have dinner that evening? mrs. paine. or : , i would guess. mr. jenner. and calling on your recollection, mrs. paine, following dinner do you remember any occasion that evening when lee was out of the house and you didn't see him around the house, and you were conscious of the fact he was not in the house? mrs. paine. i was not at anytime of the opinion that he was out of the house, conscious of it. mr. jenner. you have no recollection of his being out of the house anytime that evening? mrs. paine. no. mr. dulles. did he do any reading that evening--books, papers, anything? mrs. paine. not to my recollection. mr. jenner. what were you doing that evening? mrs. paine. i have tried already to describe that after dinner, and probably after some dishes were done. mr. jenner. who did the dishes? mrs. paine. very likely marina, it depended on who made the meal. i normally cooked the meal and then she did the dishes or we reversed occasionally. but i have tried to say i was very likely involved in the back bedroom and in the bathroom giving the children a bath, getting them in their pajamas and reading a story for as much as an hour. mr. jenner. that would take as much as an hour? mrs. paine. that takes as much as an hour. mr. jenner. by this time we are up to approximately : or o'clock, are we? mrs. paine. oh no; we are up to nearly o'clock by now. we eat from : to after , do some dishes, brings it up toward , and then put the children to bed. mr. jenner. when you had had your children put to bed and came out of their room, was lee, had he then by that time retired? mrs. paine. that is my recollection. mr. dulles. did you have any words with marina about the light in the garage? was that a subject of conversation between you? mrs. paine. no; we didn't discuss it. mr. dulles. you didn't mention it to her? mrs. paine. no; i didn't discuss it. representative ford. did he ever help in the kitchen at all, in any way whatsoever? mrs. paine. well, i have said he once did dishes in new orleans, but that is about all i recall that he did. representative ford. but in dallas, in your home, he never volunteered? mrs. paine. no. mr. mccloy. marina did help around the house? mrs. paine. she helped a great deal. mr. mccloy. she was a good helper? mrs. paine. she is a hard worker. mr. jenner. tell us, the time you came out of the bedroom and put your children to bed when you noticed the light in the garage; fix as well as you can the time of evening. mrs. paine. i think it was about o'clock. mr. jenner. that is when you noticed the light in the garage, around o'clock after you put your children to bed, and at that time lee was already retired? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. marina was still up? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. how long did she remain up? mrs. paine. i don't recall that evening from that point on much like any others, with the two of us up, we probably folded some diapers, laundry. some evening close to that time, either that evening or the one before, we discussed plans for christmas. mr. jenner. you and marina? mrs. paine. yes. but it was probably the evening before. i was thinking about making a playhouse for the children. mr. jenner. would you describe lee's attire when you first saw him on the lawn when you returned that evening? mrs. paine. i don't recall it. mr. jenner. you have no recollection of that? did he bring--do you know whether he brought anything with him in the way of paper or wrapper or luggage or this sticky tape, anything of that nature? mrs. paine. i don't recall seeing anything of that nature. mr. jenner. did you see any paper, wrapping paper, of the character that you have identified around your home that evening? mrs. paine. no. mr. mccloy. can't you recall a little more clearly how he generally was dressed? did he have a coat on such as i have got on now, or did he have---- mrs. paine. i never saw him in a suit jacket. mr. mccloy. suit jacket? what was his normal outer wear apparel? mrs. paine. his normal attire was t-shirt, cotton slacks, sometimes the t-shirt covered by a shirt, flannel or cotton shirt. mr. mccloy. do you recall whether he had that type of shirt over his t-shirt that night? mrs. paine. i don't recall. mr. mccloy. you don't recall? mr. jenner. did he have any kind of a shirt other than a t-shirt on him when you saw him? mrs. paine. i don't really remember. mr. jenner. i wonder, mr. chairman, if despite the fact i haven't reached the next day, if we might excuse mrs. paine? she did tell me she had an appointment at : this evening, and i would like to have her think over more so she can be refreshed in the morning as to this particular evening. and, mrs. paine, i would have you trace the first thing in the morning as best as you can recall lee harvey oswald's movements that evening and where he was, to the best that you are able to recall. would you try to do that for us? mrs. paine. i think i probably have done the best i can, but i will do it again if you like. mr. jenner. may we have permission to adjourn, mr. chairman? mr. mccloy. very well. mr. dulles. could i ask just one question? with regard to this sketch of the house, i was interested to know where you would see the light in the garage. was it from out here? mrs. paine. this is a doorway into the garage from the kitchen area. mr. dulles. and you saw that light from the kitchen area? mrs. paine. i think i was probably on my way to the garage anyway, opened the door, there was the light on. mr. dulles. i see. there are no windows or anything. the door was closed and the light would not be visible if you hadn't gone into it? mrs. paine. it would be visible if it was dark in here. mr. dulles. i understand. through the door. representative ford. and you spent about a half hour in the garage painting some blocks? mrs. paine. yes. representative ford. what part of the garage---- mrs. paine. close to the doorway here, the entrance, this entrance. representative ford. the entrance going into the---- mrs. paine. the doorway between the garage and the kitchen-dining area. right here. representative ford. you didn't move around the garage? mrs. paine. i moved around enough to get some shellac and brush and make a place, a block is this big, to paint. representative ford. where do you recollect, if you do, the blanket was at this time? mrs. paine. i don't recollect. it was the next day---- representative ford. it was the forepart of the garage on the left-hand side? mrs. paine. beyond. mr. mccloy. does anyone have any further questions? mr. jenner. no questions, mr. chairman. representative ford has directed the attention of the witness to the document which is now exhibit no. , and when we reconvene in the morning i will qualify the exhibit. mr. mccloy. is that all? we will reconvene at a.m., tomorrow. (whereupon, at : p.m., the president's commission recessed.) friday, march , testimony of ruth hyde paine resumed the president's commission met at : a.m. on friday, march , , at maryland avenue ne., washington, d.c. present were chief justice earl warren, chairman; senator john sherman cooper, representative gerald r. ford, and john j. mccloy, members. also present were j. lee rankin, general counsel; albert e. jenner, jr., assistant counsel; and wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel. senator cooper. mrs. paine, you, i think, yesterday affirmed, made affirmation as to the truthfulness of your testimony? mrs. paine. yes, i did. senator cooper. you are still under that affirmation? mrs. paine. i understand that i am under that affirmation. mr. jenner. may i proceed? thank you. mrs. paine, just to put you at ease this morning, mr. chairman, may i qualify some documents? the chairman. good morning, gentlemen and ladies. how are you, mrs. paine? i am glad to see you this morning. mr. jenner. mrs. paine, i show you commission exhibit no. which you produced and which you testified was the original of a letter of october , , to your mother, part of which you read at large in the record. is that document in your handwriting entirely? mrs. paine. yes; it is. mr. jenner. you testified it is a letter from you to your mother? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. did you dispatch the letter? mrs. paine. i did. mr. jenner. in view of that fact would you explain for the record how you came into possession of the letter since you sent it to your mother? mrs. paine. she gave it to me a few days ago. mr. jenner. is the document now in the same condition it was when you mailed it to your mother? mrs. paine. yes; it is. you have the first page of two. the other page not being relative to this case. mr. jenner. in other words, that there be no question about it, do you have the other page? mrs. paine. i have the other page. mr. jenner. may i have it? mrs. paine. the other page, of course, contains my signature. mr. jenner. yes. may the record be amended to show that commission exhibit no. ----. mrs. paine. i'd rather not have that part of it---- mr. jenner. it is not going into the record, mrs. paine. just be patient. commission exhibit consists of two pages, that is two sheets. the pages are numbered from one through four. would you look at the page numbered ? there is a signature appearing at the bottom of it. is that your signature? mrs. paine. yes; it is. mr. jenner. mr. chairman, may i postpone the offer of this document in evidence until i do read the second page, which the witness has now produced. you see, mrs. paine, that it may be important to the commission to have the entire letter which would indicate the context in which the statements that are relevant were made. you testified yesterday with regard to the draft of what appeared to be a letter that mr. oswald, lee harvey oswald, was to send. it was thought he might send it to someone. i hand you a picture of a letter in longhand which has been identified as commission exhibit . would you look at that please? do you recognize that handwriting? mrs. paine. no. this is the only time i saw--this is the only handwriting of his i have seen. mr. jenner. you can't identify the document as such, that is, are you familiar enough with his handwriting---- mrs. paine. to know that this is his handwriting? mr. jenner. to identify whether that is or is not his handwriting. mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. have you ever seen that document before? mrs. paine. yes; i have. mr. jenner. when did you first see it? mrs. paine. i first saw that on saturday, the th of november. i don't believe i looked to see what it said until the morning of the th. mr. jenner. i see. now, do you recognize it, however, as a picture of the document that you did see on the th of november, or did you say th? mrs. paine. i'll say th, yes; it is that document. senator cooper. what is the answer? mrs. paine. it is that document. mr. jenner. and i take it from your testimony that after you had seen the original of this document, this document happens to be a photo, you saw a typed transcript of this document or substantially this document? mrs. paine. i never saw a typed transcript. mr. jenner. you did not? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. mrs. paine, you testified yesterday that lee harvey oswald asked you if he could use your typewriter? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. and he did proceed to use the typewriter to type a letter or at least some document? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and that you saw a document folded in half and one portion of it arrested your attention? mrs. paine. yes; that is correct. mr. jenner. was the document that arrested your attention the typed document or was it the document that is before you? mrs. paine. i never saw the typed document. it was the document that is before me, which i take to be a rough draft of what he typed. mr. jenner. and you said you made a duplicate of the document. did you make a duplicate in longhand or on your typewriter? mrs. paine. i made a duplicate in longhand. mr. jenner. but you do have a present recollection that this, commission exhibit no. for identification, is the document which you saw in your home on your desk secretary? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. mr. chairman, i offer in evidence as commission exhibit no. the document--oh, it is already in evidence. i withdraw that offer. senator cooper. it is in evidence. mr. jenner. mr. redlich informs me, mr. chairman, that the document has already been admitted in evidence. now, would you follow me as i go through these? there has been marked as commission's exhibit , which is the mark at the moment for identification, what purports to be a floor plan outline of the paine home at fifth street, irving, tex., and the witness made reference to that yesterday close to the close of her testimony yesterday afternoon. directing your attention to that exhibit, is that an accurate floor plan outline of your home at fifth street, irving, tex.? mrs. paine. it is an approximately accurate floor plan. mr. jenner. and is it properly entitled, that is, are the rooms and sections of the home properly entitled? mrs. paine. yes; they are. mr. jenner. and does it accurately reflect the door openings, the hallways in your home and the garage? mrs. paine. yes; it is perfectly accurate. mr. jenner. i think one thing only needs some explanation. in the upper left-hand corner of the floor plan outline, there is a square space which has no lettering to identify that space. it is the area immediately to the left of the--of what is designated as kitchen-dining area. mrs. paine. yes. that space is all one room with that which is designated kitchen-dining area. that is one large room. mr. jenner. i see. so that even though on the floor plan outline the words "kitchen-dining area" appear in the right half of that space, that lettering and wording is to apply to all the space? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. and the driveway about which you testified is that portion of the ground outline which has the circle with the figure " " and an arrow, is that right? mrs. paine. that is the driveway. mr. jenner. and the driveway is where the car was parked because the garage always had too many things in it to get your car in? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. referring to commission exhibit no. for identification, is that a front view of your home? mrs. paine. yes; it is. mr. jenner. were you present when the picture was taken? mrs. paine. yes; i was. mr. jenner. commission exhibit , is that a rear view of your home? mrs. paine. yes; it is. mr. jenner. were you present when that was taken? mrs. paine. probably. i don't recall. mr. jenner. but that is an accurate depiction? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. of the rear of your home? mrs. paine. it is certainly accurate. mr. jenner. and showing some of your yard. the next exhibit , is that a view of the east side of your home? mrs. paine. east and north; yes. mr. jenner. and were you present when that was taken? mrs. paine. i wouldn't know. mr. jenner. but it is an accurate depiction of that area of your home? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. commission exhibit , is that a view of the west side of your home? mrs. paine. west and north. mr. jenner. were you present when that was taken? mrs. paine. i don't recall. mr. jenner. despite that, is it accurate? mrs. paine. it is perfectly accurate. mr. jenner. now, is commission exhibit a view inside your home looking through the door leading to the garage from your kitchen? mrs. paine. yes; it is. mr. jenner. and were you present when that was taken? mrs. paine. yes; i was. mr. jenner. and is it accurate? mrs. paine. yes; it is. mr. jenner. commission exhibit , is that a picture of the doorway area leading to the backyard of your home? mrs. paine. yes; it is. mr. jenner. were you present when that was taken? mrs. paine. yes; i was. mr. jenner. is it accurate? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. commission exhibit , is that the kitchen area in your home? mrs. paine. yes; it is. mr. jenner. now, were you present when that was taken? mrs. paine. yes; i was. mr. jenner. and is it accurate? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. returning now to the floor plan exhibit, commission exhibit , is commission exhibit , which is the kitchen area in your home, that portion of commission exhibit which is lettered "kitchen-dining area." mrs. paine. it is a picture of that portion. mr. jenner. of that portion, rather than the portion to the left which is unlettered? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. the garage interior we identified yesterday. by the way, have you ever been in the randle home? mrs. paine. yes; i have. mr. jenner. have you been there often enough to identify a floor plan and pictures of the randle home? mrs. paine. yes. i have been there perhaps once or twice. mr. mccloy. do you intend to call mrs. randle? mr. jenner. unfortunately mrs. randle has already testified and mr. ball when he questioned her did not have this exhibit. it wasn't in existence. i show you a page marked commission exhibit no. entitled "randle home, west fifth street, irving, tex.," purporting to be a floor plan outline of the randle home. you have been in the randle home? mrs. paine. yes; i have. mr. jenner. on several occasions? mrs. paine. two or three; yes. mr. jenner. and are you familiar with the general area of the randle home? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. surrounding the randle home? mrs. paine. indeed; i am. mr. jenner. and looking at commission exhibit , is that an accurate floor plan outline and general community outline of the randle home? mrs. paine. yes; i would say it is. mr. jenner. i show you commission exhibit . is that an accurate and true and correct photograph showing the corner view of the randle home? mrs. paine. yes; it is. mr. jenner. exhibit , is that an accurate photograph of a portion of the kitchen portion, the front of the kitchen window of the randle home? mrs. paine. i believe so. mr. jenner. does your recollection serve you---- mrs. paine. i am trying to see if i know which is west and north there and i am not certain. mr. jenner. let us return to the floor plan. mrs. paine. this would be, yes, that is what i thought. this is looking then west. mr. jenner. you have now oriented yourself. and is it an accurate picture of the front of the kitchen? mrs. paine. yes. senator cooper. which exhibit are you referring to now? mr. jenner. the front of the randle home no. . the next number, , is that an accurate photograph of the area of the randle home showing a view from the field from the randle's kitchen window? mrs. paine. that is accurate. mr. jenner. across the street? mrs. paine. correct. mr. jenner. commission exhibit , is that an accurate photograph of the kitchen of the randle home looking at the direction of the carport from the randle home? mrs. paine. that is an accurate picture showing the door opening to the carport; yes. mr. jenner. and the kitchen portion of the randle home facing on the carport? mrs. paine. correct. mr. jenner. have you ever been in the carport area of the randle home? mrs. paine. yes; i have. mr. jenner. and is commission exhibit a view of a portion of the carport area of the randle home? mrs. paine. it looks like it. mr. jenner. now is a photograph taken from the street looking toward the randle home, is that right? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and it is the west side of the randle house? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. showing that carport area? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and it is accurate, isn't it? mrs. paine. it is accurate. mr. jenner. commission exhibit , is that an accurate photograph of the area of irving street showing not only the randle house but also your home? mrs. paine. yes; that is accurate. mr. jenner. and is commission exhibit ---- senator cooper. what was the number of the photograph which you just referred to? mr. jenner. . is view looking northeast showing the paine home at the left and the randle home at the far right. directing your attention to commission exhibit , is that an accurate photograph showing a view of the randle home looking west fifth street? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. is commission exhibit an accurate photograph showing a view looking west along fifth street to your home? mrs. paine. yes; it is. mr. jenner. and is the arrow that appears on that photograph--does that point to your home? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. is commission exhibit no. , which i now show you, an accurate photograph of the intersection of westbrook drive and west fifth street viewed from immediately outside the randle kitchen window? mrs. paine. it looks to be exactly that. mr. jenner. i now show you commission exhibit no. entitled "paine and randle homes, irving, tex." which purports to be, and i believe is, a scale drawing of the area in irving, tex., along west fifth street and westbrook drive, in which your home at west fifth street is shown in outline, and the location and form of the randle home down the street and on the corner is likewise shown. mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. is that accurate? mrs. paine. that is accurate. senator cooper. are you going to make part of the record these exhibits which she has identified? mr. jenner. yes; i am about to offer these and i would ask mr. redlich if he would assemble the exhibit numbers so i can make the offer, please. mrs. paine, now that you have had a rest over night, we would like to return to the late afternoon and the evening of november . did lee harvey oswald come to irving, tex., at anytime that day? mrs. paine. he came some time shortly before : in the evening on the st. mr. jenner. had either you or marina, i limit it to you first, had you had any notice or intimation whatsoever that lee harvey oswald would appear on that day? mrs. paine. absolutely none. mr. jenner. and his appearance was a complete surprise to you? mrs. paine. that is correct. mr. jenner. did anything occur during the day or during that week up to the time that you saw lee harvey oswald that afternoon that impressed you or led you to believe that marina had any notion whatsoever that her husband would or might appear at your home on that day? mrs. paine. nothing. i rather had the contrary impressions. mr. jenner. now, what was your first notice, what was the circumstances that brought your attention to the fact that lee harvey oswald was in irving, tex., that afternoon. mrs. paine. i arrived home from the grocery store in my car and saw he was on the front lawn at my house. mr. jenner. you had had no word whatsoever from anybody prior to that moment? mrs. paine. no word whatsoever. mr. jenner. now where was he? and we may use the exhibits we have just identified. mr. chairman, i offer in evidence the photographs and the floor plans and the area outlines the witness has just identified and testified about as they are commission exhibit nos. through both inclusive, and and . senator cooper. the exhibits offered will be received in evidence. (commission exhibits nos. through both inclusive, and and were received in evidence.) the chairman. senator cooper, at this time i am obliged to leave for our all-day conference on friday at the supreme court, and i may be back later in the day, but if i don't, you continue, of course. senator cooper. i will this morning. if i can't be here this afternoon, whom do you want to preside? the chairman. congressman ford, would you be here this afternoon at all? representative ford. unfortunately mr. mccloy and i have to go to a conference out of town. the chairman. you are both going out of town, aren't you? senator cooper. i can go and come back if it is necessary. the chairman. i will try to be here myself. will mr. dulles be here? mr. mccloy. he is out of town. the chairman. if you should not finish, mr. jenner, will you phone me at the court and i will try to suspend my own conference over there and come over. senator cooper. i will be here anyway all morning and will try to come back this afternoon. the chairman. thank you very much. mrs. paine, i want to thank you for coming and for being so patient with our long questioning. mrs. paine. i am glad to do what i can. the chairman. you know that it is necessary. mrs. paine. indeed. the chairman. thank you very much. mr. jenner. you might use the ruler, and i have set the floor plan and the area plan of your home, mrs. paine, exhibit , on the blackboard. as you testify, it might be helpful to point to those areas. now in which direction were you coming? mrs. paine. i was coming from the east. mr. jenner. from the east? mrs. paine. along west fifth. mr. jenner. you were going west. your home is on the right-hand side. mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. when did you first sight, where were you when you first saw lee in your courtyard? mrs. paine. just past the corner of westbrook and fifth. mr. jenner. that area is open from that point to your home; is it? mrs. paine. the area of the front yard; yes. mr. jenner. your home is well set back from the street or sidewalk? mrs. paine. moderately set back. mr. jenner. what would you judge that distance to be? mrs. paine. two car lengths from the opening of the garage to the sidewalk. mr. jenner. now where was lee oswald when you first saw him? mrs. paine. he was on the grass just to the east of the driveway. mr. jenner. near the driveway just to the east, but he was out in front of your home? mrs. paine. that is correct. mr. jenner. what did you do then? you proceeded down the street? mrs. paine. i parked my car, yes; parked my car in its usual position in the driveway. mr. jenner. in your driveway? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. up close to the garage opening? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and that left you then, you were on the left side or the driving side of your automobile. you got out, did you? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. which way? did you get out to your left or did you swing across the seat and get out at the right hand door? mrs. paine. i got out on the driver's side, on the left. mr. jenner. then what did you do? first tell us what you did. did you go into your home directly? did you walk around? mrs. paine. no. i greeted lee and marina, who were both on the front lawn. mr. jenner. was their daughter june out in front as well? mrs. paine. their daughter june was out in front. it was warm. lee was playing with june. mr. jenner. how was he attired? mrs. paine. i don't recall specifically. mr. jenner. you said that he normally wore a t-shirt. mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. was he in a t-shirt or shirt? mrs. paine. i'd be fairly certain he didn't have a jacket on, but that whatever it was was tucked in. mr. jenner. do you remember the color of his trousers? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. now at that point you were surprised to see him? mrs. paine. i was. mr. jenner. what did you say to him? mrs. paine. i don't recall. mr. jenner. but you do recall greeting him? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. you don't recall that you evidenced any surprise that he was there? mrs. paine. oh, i think i did. mr. jenner. had there ever been an occasion prior thereto that he had appeared at your home without prior notice to you and permission from you for him to appear? mrs. paine. there had been no such occasion. he had always asked permission prior to coming. mr. jenner. and there never had been an exception to that up to this moment? mrs. paine. no exception. mr. jenner. may we have the time again? you say it was late in the afternoon, but can you fix the time a little more? mrs. paine. it was getting on toward : . mr. jenner. did you tarry and talk with lee and marina? mrs. paine. i remember only that marina and i were still on the grass at the entryway to the house when she spoke of her embarrassment to me in an aside, that is to say, not in lee's hearing, that she was sorry he hadn't called ahead and asked if that was all right. and i said "why, that is all right." mr. jenner. nothing was said by her as to why he had come out? mrs. paine. nothing. mr. jenner. and nothing was---- mrs. paine. she was clearly surprised also. mr. jenner. yes. you made no inquiry of her i take it then of any explanation made by lee oswald as to why he had come out unannounced and unexpectedly? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. at least not as of that moment. mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. now when you had your aside with marina, where was lee oswald? mrs. paine. on the grass near the tree playing with june as closely as i can remember. mr. jenner. how long did you and marina remain in conversation at that place, position? mrs. paine. less than a minute. mr. jenner. then what did you do? mrs. paine. i can only reconstruct it. mr. jenner. that is all i am asking you to do. mrs. paine. i must have gotten groceries from the car. mr. jenner. you mean reconstruct in the sense of rationalizing? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. i wish you would give me first your recollection. mrs. paine. i am certain of going into the house, and i recall standing just inside the doorway. mr. jenner. of your home? mrs. paine. of my home. mr. jenner. but inside the home? mrs. paine. but inside now. mr. jenner. which way were you facing when you were standing inside the doorway? mrs. paine. i was facing partly toward the door, toward the loud speaker. i was facing this way. mr. jenner. why were you facing outwardly? mrs. paine. i believe i turned. i was coming in. i believe i turned to speak to lee as he came in. mr. jenner. lee followed you in the house? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and did marina come in? mrs. paine. i don't recall whether she was already in or still out. mr. jenner. but you do have a recollection that lee followed you into your home. mrs. paine. and i recall very clearly the position i was in in the room and the position he was in. mr. jenner. tell us. mrs. paine. i was turned part way toward the door. he was coming in, having just entered the door and in front of this loud speaker to which i refer. mr. jenner. what was the loud speaker? mrs. paine. the loud speaker is part of the hi-fi set. it stands--it is a big thing. mr. jenner. did something occur at that moment? mrs. paine. and it was at that time that i said to him "our president is coming to town." i believe i said it in russian, our president is coming to town in russian. mr. jenner. and you gave us his response yesterday but you might do it again. mrs. paine. he said "uh, yeah" and brushed on by me, walked on past. mr. jenner. did he have an attitude of indifference? mrs. paine. it was clearly both indifference and not wanting to go on and talk, because he moved away from me on into the kitchen. mr. jenner. he went into your kitchen. what did you do? mrs. paine. i don't recall specifically. mr. jenner. we are anxious to follow minute by minute, to the extent possible, all the movements of which you had any knowledge of lee oswald on this late afternoon and throughout the evening. did lee oswald remain in your presence right at this time when you entered the house? if so, how long? you had this short conversation. did he leave your presence then and go to some other part of your home? mrs. paine. he might have gone to some other part of the home. he didn't leave the house to my recollection. mr. jenner. i didn't mean to imply that, only whether he remained in the general area in which you were in your home? mrs. paine. i don't recall. mr. jenner. did he pass from your sight? mrs. paine. probably. mr. jenner. before you guess about it, give us your best recollection. senator cooper. tell what you remember. mr. mccloy. yes; just in your own words tell us what your best recollection of this afternoon was without second to second sequence. mrs. paine. clearly just having come from the grocery store i put the bags down in the kitchen and unpacked them, put them away, started supper. mr. jenner. did you have any sense that lee oswald was in and about the inside of the house while you were doing this? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. do you have a recollection that he did not go out into the yard during this period? mrs. paine. i don't recall. if he did, it would have been the back. it would have been unusual for him to go in the front yard. mr. jenner. now you were preparing your dinner in your kitchen, were you not? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and does the entrance to your garage--is there an entrance to your garage opening from your kitchen into the garage? mrs. paine. there is an entrance to the garage from the kitchen; yes. mr. jenner. and one of the exhibits we qualified this morning is a picture of that area of your home, is it not? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. your answer was yes? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. at anytime while you were preparing dinner was lee oswald in the garage? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. and you were aware of that fact, were you? mrs. paine. that is my best recollection that he was not in the garage while i was preparing dinner. mr. jenner. do you know where he was while you were preparing dinner? mrs. paine. i don't recall specifically. mr. jenner. did you have occasion to look into your garage area at anytime during the period you were preparing dinner? mrs. paine. not that i recall. mr. jenner. where was marina during the period you were preparing dinner? mrs. paine. i'd have to guess. senator cooper. just tell what you know. mr. jenner. tell what you know first. mrs. paine. i don't recall specifically. mr. jenner. do you have a recollection with respect to whether she was inside the house or outside the house? mrs. paine. i recall that she was inside the house. mr. jenner. and where was the child june with respect to whether she was inside or outside the house? mrs. paine. she was inside. mr. jenner. having located marina and the oswald daughter inside your home, does that refresh your recollection as to whether lee was also inside the house? mrs. paine. as far as i remember, he was also inside the house. mr. jenner. was he playing with his daughter? mrs. paine. i don't recall. mr. jenner. how long did it take you to prepare dinner? mrs. paine. probably half an hour. mr. jenner. i am unaware of the shades of evening and night in texas. by the time you had completed dinner had night fallen or was it still light? mrs. paine. i don't recall. mr. jenner. what time does nightfall come in texas in november, late november? mrs. paine. i would say between and : . mr. jenner. i shouldn't have been as broad as i was. i meant to locate it in irving, tex., rather than texas generally. about : ? mrs. paine. between and : . i don't know exactly. mr. jenner. when did you sit down for dinner? mrs. paine. i suppose around : . mr. jenner. is that your best recollection? mrs. paine. i don't recall specifically. mr. jenner. was it still light outside, natural light? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. did lee oswald join you for dinner? mrs. paine. yes; he did. mr. jenner. and how long did dinner take? mrs. paine. perhaps half an hour. mr. jenner. did he remain in your presence during all of the dinner period? mrs. paine. either there or in the living room. mr. jenner. at anytime during the dinner period, did lee oswald leave your home? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. you have a firm recollection of that? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. did marina? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. at anytime during that period did lee oswald enter the garage area? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. did marina? mrs. paine. not to my recollection. mr. jenner. did you? mrs. paine. the deepfreeze is in the garage. i don't recall having gone, but i go all the time for goods for the baby, for my little boy. mr. jenner. and did you use anything from the deepfreeze normally, in connection with the preparation of an evening meal? mrs. paine. i could have gone out then too. mr. jenner. though you don't recall it specifically, it is possible that you went into the garage. mrs. paine. it is possible. mr. jenner. garage area. senator cooper. but you don't remember? mrs. paine. i don't remember. this is something i do as habit. mr. jenner. it is so much habit that you don't single it out? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. in any event, if you entered the garage, it was pursuant to a normal practice of preparing dinner and not because you were seeking to look for something out of the ordinary? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. or that your attention was arrested by something out of the ordinary? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. after the dinner hour or half hour, whatever it took, what did you do? let's take say the -hour period following your dinner? mrs. paine. i was busy putting my children to bed. mr. jenner. where were you located during that period of time? mrs. paine. i normally read them a story in the bedroom which is the back bedroom on the north side. senator cooper. did you do it that evening? mrs. paine. yes. senator cooper. not normally but do you remember that you did it? mrs. paine. i am certain i read them a story. senator cooper. what? mrs. paine. i am certain i read them a story. whether they also had a bath that night i can't remember. mr. jenner. now being in your children's bedroom, which i take it was also your bedroom---- mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. that would be the rear portion of your home at the corner? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. when you were in that room, what can you see with respect to other portions of your home? mrs. paine. the view from the bedroom door. mr. jenner. looking into what? mrs. paine. looking west looks into the kitchen-dining area right past the doorway entrance to the garage. mr. jenner. can you see into the living room area of your home? mrs. paine. from that doorway you can; yes. mr. jenner. if you stand in the doorway, i take it you can do so. mrs. paine. but sitting on the bed reading a story; no. mr. jenner. but if you stood in the middle of the room and looked out that doorway from your bedroom, you would look into the kitchen area, not into the living room area? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. how long did you remain in your bedroom putting your children to bed? mrs. paine. that process can take as much as an hour and often does. mr. jenner. give us your very best recollection of how long it took this evening? mrs. paine. i don't recall specifically how long. mr. jenner. is it your recollection that you pursued your normal course in getting them to bed. you read a story, i take it, did you? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and you undressed the children and placed them in the crib or bed and you say that normally takes approximately an hour? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and you remained in the bedroom during all of that hour period? mrs. paine. well, i wouldn't be certain of that; no. i also prepare a bottle which involves going to the kitchen, and heating milk. i also chase my children. they don't always just stay in the bedroom. mr. jenner. did you see lee harvey oswald either in or about your home from time to time during this hour period that you were preparing your children for sleep that evening? mrs. paine. i don't recall specifically except that i was aware he was in the home. senator cooper. how would you be aware he was in the home? mrs. paine. i would have noticed it if he had gone out the door it seems to me, out the front door. one can easily hear, and that would be an unusual thing. mr. jenner. why would it be unusual? mrs. paine. well, he never did go out the front door in the evening. mr. jenner. once he entered your home his normal practice was to stay inside? mrs. paine. was to turn on the television set and sit. mr. jenner. did he turn on the television set? mrs. paine. i don't believe he watched television that evening. mr. jenner. could you tell us of any awareness on your part of his presence in the home, that is you were definitely conscious that he remained inside the house? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and was not out in the yard? senator cooper. how would you know that? mrs. paine. it is a small house. you can hear if the front door or the back door opens. but i can't be absolutely certain. senator cooper. is what you are saying that you don't remember, or rather that you don't remember that the front door or the back door did open? mrs. paine. that is right. i am also saying there is very little about that evening that stood out as unusual. i have tried to say what i could think of that did stand out as unusual. i think the rest melds together with other evenings which were similar. senator cooper. i don't want to interrupt you but i think she has got to tell what she remembers that evening. mr. mccloy. yes. i think without the meticulous minute by minute, just say what it is. senator cooper. if you don't remember, you don't remember. mrs. paine. i am sorry. mr. mccloy. you can't break it down into sequence that far back? senator cooper. just tell what you remember. mr. jenner. go ahead and tell us, mrs. paine, the course of events that evening, with particular reference to what we are interested in, what lee oswald did and where he was during the course of that evening. mrs. paine. i have already said that after i had my children in bed, i went to the garage to work. mr. jenner. was it now nighttime? mrs. paine. it was now dark, i recall about o'clock. i noticed that the light was on. mr. jenner. was the door to the garage open? mrs. paine. no; it was closed. mr. jenner. it was closed. and you noticed the light on when you opened the door. mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. had the light been on at anytime to your knowledge prior to that? mrs. paine. not that evening; no. mr. jenner. when entering and leaving the garage during the course of your preparing dinner, to your recollection, was there any light on at that time? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. you didn't turn the light on at anytime up to this moment of which you speak? mrs. paine. no. senator cooper. had you been in the garage that evening before the time that you found the light on? mrs. paine. if i had only in this course of habit which also included if it was dark, flipping the switch on and flipping it off. senator cooper. you don't remember if you did that or not before. mrs. paine. specifically, no. mr. mccloy. she said she might have been. mr. jenner. is that a hand switch? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. you must trip it. where is the switch located, in the kitchen or in the garage? mrs. paine. the switch is in the garage. mr. jenner. mr. chairman, the witness has before her commission exhibit , which is a picture of her home, looking through the door leading to the garage from the kitchen. is the light switch shown in that picture? mrs. paine. no; it is not. mr. jenner. and why is it not shown? mrs. paine. the light switch that turns on the light in the garage is on the interior of the garage approximately through the wall from the switch you see in the picture, which lights the kitchen, or the dining area overhead light. mr. jenner. and the switch that is shown in the picture, is it to the right of the doorjamb? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. and rather high? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. placed high, and on the picture it is shown as having, oh, is that a white plastic plate? mrs. paine. it is exactly. mr. jenner. and the switch that lights the garage light is directly opposite on the other side of the wall inside the garage? mrs. paine. that is my recollection; yes. mr. jenner. now directing your attention to commission exhibit , that is a picture, is it not, of the garage interior of your home taken from the outlet door of the garage and looking back toward the kitchen? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. is that correct? and does that show the doorway from the garage into your kitchen? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. in other words, the opposite side of the wall, which is shown in commission exhibit ? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and are you able to locate the light switch on commission exhibit which is the garage interior exhibit? that is, can you see the switch? mrs. paine. no; i am not certain i can. this is something else. mr. jenner. i point out to you the configuration which is halfway down the garage doorjamb outline. mrs. paine. right next to the top surface of the deepfreeze. mr. jenner. yes. is that the light switch? mrs. paine. i thought it was higher. senator cooper. you know there is a light switch there, don't you? mr. mccloy. there is a light switch there. mrs. paine. i know i don't pull the string which is there clearly in the picture. mr. jenner. you step down into the garage do you, or is it at the kitchen floor level? mrs. paine. are you still asking? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. paine. no; you don't step down, perhaps inches all together. mr. jenner. the floor of the garage and the floor of the kitchen are at a level? mrs. paine. approximately at a level. mr. jenner. why did you enter the garage on that occasion? mrs. paine. i was about to lacquer some children's large blocks, playing blocks. mr. jenner. these are blocks that you had cut at some other time? mrs. paine. i had cut them on the saw in the garage; yes; previously. mr. jenner. proceed. representative ford. mr. jenner, may i ask a question there? mr. jenner. yes. representative ford. some people have a habit of turning lights on and off again regularly. others are a little careless about it. would you describe your attitude in this regard? mrs. paine. i am definitely a person with the habit of turning them off. representative ford. this is a trait that you have? mrs. paine. yes. representative ford. now, if you were to go out from the kitchen to the garage, is it easy for you as you go out the door to turn the light on? mrs. paine. and off; yes. representative ford. it is very simple for you to do so? mrs. paine. yes. representative ford. both going out and coming in? mrs. paine. yes. representative ford. and as you go out on your right or left? mrs. paine. it is on my left as i go out of the garage. representative ford. and as you come in from the garage to the kitchen it is on your right. mrs. paine. as you come into the garage from the kitchen---- mr. mccloy. when you are going out to the garage, on which side is it? mrs. paine. it is on my right. mr. mccloy. on your right. coming out from the garage to the kitchen it is on your left? mrs. paine. that is what he said. mr. mccloy. you said it just the opposite, i think. representative ford. i thought i asked the question and she responded in the reverse. mr. mccloy. maybe. representative ford. and it surprised me a little bit. the record may show two different responses there. mr. jenner. could we recover that now? mrs. paine. the switch is on the west doorjamb of that door between the two rooms. mr. jenner. perhaps that may help, mrs. paine. when you are in the kitchen about to enter the garage, the doorway from the kitchen to the garage, and you are going to enter from the kitchen into the garage, where is the switch with respect to whether it is on your right side or your left side? mrs. paine. just coming into the garage it is on my right side. mr. jenner. that is leaving your kitchen entering the garage it is on your right side. now when you are in the garage and you are about to enter the kitchen, the switch then is on your left? is that correct? mrs. paine. yes. representative ford. that clarifies it. may i now ask in your observations of either marina or lee, were they the type that were conscious of turning light switches on or off? was this an automatic reaction? were they careless about it? what was their trait if you have any observation? mrs. paine. i don't recall any other time that the garage light had been left on, and i would say certainly i saw enough of marina to be able to state what i thought would be a trait, and she would normally turn off a light when she was done, in the room. representative ford. she had the normal reaction of turning a light off if she left a room? mrs. paine. her own room. now you see most of the rooms--if she was the last one in the room she would turn it off; yes; going to bed or something like that she certainly would turn it off. mr. jenner. of course if she was going to bed she would turn the light off. but when she was leaving the room, was it her tendency to turn off the light? mrs. paine. well, the garage light is the only room in my house you leave not to come back to right away. the whole house is active all the time until bedtime. it is hard to answer. mr. jenner. so the lights are on? mrs. paine. yes. representative ford. would you make any observation about lee's tendencies or traits in this regard? mrs. paine. i can't say i have observation as to his tendencies. mr. jenner. it was your habit, however, as far as you are concerned with respect to the light in the garage to turn it off when you left the garage? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. what were your habits with respect to closing the main garage door, that is the door opening onto the street? mrs. paine. that was always closed except to open just to take out the trash can. mr. jenner. and though it is shown in one of the photographs as open. mrs. paine. that was done for the purpose of the photograph by the fbi. mr. jenner. so that normally your garage door is down? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. was it down when you arrived? mrs. paine. yes; it was. mr. jenner. at your home when you were surprised to see lee oswald? mrs. paine. yes; it certainly was. mr. jenner. do you have recollection whether anytime that evening of hearing the garage door being raised or seeing the garage door up? mrs. paine. i have no such recollection. mr. jenner. do you have a recollection that it was down at all times? mrs. paine. i wasn't in the garage. mr. jenner. well, you entered the garage did you not that evening? mrs. paine. except then; yes, at or so. it was certainly down. mr. jenner. it was down then? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. you say your home is small and you can hear even the front door opening. does the raising of the garage door cause some clatter? mrs. paine. yes; it does. mr. jenner. and had the garage door been raised, even though you were giving attention to your children, would you have heard it? mrs. paine. if it was raised slow and carefully; no, i would not have heard it. mr. jenner. but if it were raised normally? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. you would have heard it. and it is your recollection that at no time that evening were you conscious of that garage door having been raised. mrs. paine. that is correct. mr. jenner. you had reached the point at which you said you entered the garage to, did you say, lacquer some blocks which you had prepared? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. what did you notice in the garage when you entered it to lacquer those blocks? mrs. paine. the garage was as i always found it, and i went and got the lacquer from the workbench on the west side of the garage and painted the blocks on top of the deepfreeze. my motions were in the interior portion. mr. jenner. that is in the area of the garage near the kitchen entrance? mrs. paine. right. mr. jenner. how long were you in the garage on that occasion? mrs. paine. about a half an hour. mr. jenner. did you leave the garage light on while you worked in the garage? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. you are definitely conscious, however, of the fact that when you entered the garage the light was on? mrs. paine. i am certain of that. i thought it quite sloppy to have left it on. mr. jenner. did you make any inquiry of marina or of lee oswald as to the light having been left on? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. no comment at all? mrs. paine. it is my recollection that by the time i was ready to go to the garage to work, say o'clock, lee had already retired. mr. jenner. now we would like to know, tell us how you were definitely conscious that he had retired by that time? mrs. paine. he was in the bedroom. traffic between the bedroom where he was and the bathroom crosses in front of the doorway, the front of the room where i was. senator cooper. did you see him in the bedroom? mrs. paine. in the bedroom? senator cooper. yes. mrs. paine. no; but i'd be---- senator cooper. what? mrs. paine. no; but i'd be fairly certain i saw him go to it. senator cooper. you saw him go to it? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. you saw him passing back and forth from the bedroom to the bathroom and he had his ablutions and then returned to the bedroom to retire, is that correct? mrs. paine. that is my best recollection. mr. jenner. that is your definite consciousness? mrs. paine. all of this was so common that i made no specific note of it. senator cooper. i think you have got to tell what you remember that night. if you can't remember it, you can't remember it. mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. but you do remember him passing back and forth from the bedroom that he and marina normally occupied when he was there, and she occupied when she was there, to the bathroom, and then back to the bedroom. you do have that recollection? mrs. paine. i recall specifically the feeling that he was in the room, and this grounded no doubt in his having been back and forth as you have described. mr. jenner. you remained in the garage about a half hour lacquering your children's blocks. mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. you left the garage then, did you? mrs. paine. yes; i did. mr. jenner. and where did you go when you left the garage? mrs. paine. to the kitchen or living room. mr. jenner. did you see anybody when you entered the kitchen or living room? mrs. paine. yes; marina was still up. mr. jenner. did you see lee oswald? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. did you see lee oswald anytime from that moment forward until you retired for the evening? mrs. paine. i saw lee oswald at no time from that moment forward. mr. jenner. the answer to my question is no? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. did you speak with him or he with you at anytime from that moment forward until you retired? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. were you conscious that he spoke to marina at anytime from that moment forward until you retired that evening? mrs. paine. i was not conscious that he spoke to marina; no. mr. jenner. or she with him? mrs. paine. or she with him. mr. jenner. what time that evening did you retire? mrs. paine. i would guess around or : . mr. jenner. did marina remain up and retire at anytime or had she retired earlier? mrs. paine. it seems to me we remained up and retired at about the same time, having folded laundry on the sofa before we retired, and talked. mr. jenner. were you looking at the television while you were doing the folding? mrs. paine. i don't recall. i don't think so. mr. jenner. now let us return to the garage for a moment. when you were in the garage for the half hour, did you notice the blanket wrapped package you testified about yesterday? mrs. paine. i don't specifically recall seeing it; no. mr. jenner. you first weren't conscious of it? mrs. paine. that is correct. mr. jenner. you didn't stumble over it. mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. it wasn't drawn to your attention in any fashion. is that correct? mrs. paine. that is correct. mr. jenner. now, as you and marina sat that evening, folding the ironing, what did you discuss? mrs. paine. i don't recall specifically. mr. jenner. was there any discussion that might serve to refresh your recollection, any discussion of the fact that lee oswald had come home or come to irving in the first place on a thursday afternoon, which is unusual, or that he had come home unannounced and without invitation, which also as you have testified was unusual? wasn't there any discussion between you and marina, speculation at least on your part as to why he was home? mrs. paine. yes, there was discussion. i can't recall exactly what time in the evening it took place but i recall the content of the discussion. mr. jenner. you tell us about it. mrs. paine. she suggested that he was making up the quarrel that they had had because of her attempt to reach him by telephone, and i agreed, concurred with that judgment of it. mr. jenner. what was the attitude that evening? mrs. paine. he was very warm and friendly. mr. jenner. was there anything unusual about his attitude and conduct that evening? mrs. paine. nothing except he went to bed a little earlier than he normally would have on a sunday evening before work. mr. jenner. were you conscious of the fact that he was retiring a little earlier than he normally would? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and did you speculate in your mind as to why that might be? mrs. paine. no. i knew that he would go to bed as early as o'clock say on the sunday evening before going to work the next day. this was just, still early. mr. jenner. what was marina's attitude toward him that evening? was she reserved because of this quarrel? mrs. paine. no. i think she felt the best thing was to pass it by and not discuss it. mr. jenner. that was your impression of her? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. of her conduct. senator cooper. that is just your idea about it, isn't it? mrs. paine. well, and that i saw her do exactly, that too. mr. jenner. do exactly what? mrs. paine. she didn't ask him why he had come. mr. jenner. excuse me. you were present when marina put a question to---- mrs. paine. she did not ask him. mr. jenner. oh, she did not. mr. mccloy. she did not. mr. jenner. oh, i am sorry. mrs. paine. certainly not in my presence. mr. jenner. do you have any impression as to how long he had been at your home prior to your driving down the street and first seeing him? mrs. paine. he usually arrived from his ride with wesley frazier somewhere around a quarter of , so i guess it was a few minutes to minutes. mr. jenner. you arrived at your home in the neighborhood of : or : . so it is your impression that he had been at your home from to minutes? mrs. paine. no; i say from a few minutes to minutes. mr. jenner. a few minutes to minutes. did marina say anything that evening of his having a package with him when he came to your home? mrs. paine. no; she didn't. mr. jenner. no discussion of that nature occurred? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. i am going to put a general question to you. do you have any recollection at all of lee oswald actually being in the garage of your home that evening? mrs. paine. i have said that i had the feeling from traffic that had preceded it that he was in the bedroom when i saw he was no longer in the rest of the house. when i saw the light was on, my distinct thought was that he had left it on. i think that was founded upon an awareness of what marina had been doing and i suppose what he was doing. mr. jenner. you say doing. you mean an awareness---- mrs. paine. in other words, it was common for both marina and lee to go to the garage, but when i saw the light was on i was certain it was lee that had left it on. mr. jenner. rather than marina? mrs. paine. rather than marina. mr. jenner. because of her habit of turning off lights? mrs. paine. not only that. i feel that i--memory of what she had been doing during the time that i was also putting the children to bed. she was involved with the children. mr. jenner. may we possibly do this. did you see marina in the garage at anytime? mrs. paine. that evening? mr. jenner. that evening. mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. you did not see lee oswald in the garage at anytime that evening? mrs. paine. did not see him in the garage; no. mr. jenner. mr. chairman, i intend at this moment to proceed to the next day. i wondered if members of the commission have any further questions of mrs. paine with respect to the afternoon or evening of november ? mr. mccloy. i don't have any. i think she has covered it all. i would remind you that we have got to be leaving, mr. ford and i, and senator cooper around noon. we would like to make as much progress as we can before we go. mr. jenner. that is fine. i will have completed this phase. senator cooper. if you can get through the events of the d. mr. jenner. you retired along about : ? mrs. paine. that is my recollection. mr. jenner. the evening of the st. did you sleep through the night? mrs. paine. yes. i woke at : . mr. jenner. the children did not awaken you at anytime during the night and nothing else awakened you? mrs. paine. i don't recall that anything woke me; no. mr. jenner. is your recollection sufficient that you were not awakened during the night, that is your definite impression at the moment? mrs. paine. i get up often in the night to change a diaper or cover a child, but this is a matter of habit and i don't recall whether this night contained such a getting up or not. mr. jenner. you sleep with your children, do you not? mrs. paine. we are in the same bedroom. mr. jenner. you awakened when in the morning? mrs. paine. at : . mr. jenner. and when you awakened, immediately after you awakened what did you do? mrs. paine. when i awoke i felt the house was extremely quiet and the thought occurred to me that lee might have overslept. i wondered if he had gotten up in time to get off around o'clock because i knew he had to go to meet wesley frazier to catch his ride. i looked about and found a plastic coffee cup in the sink that had clearly been used and judged he had had a cup of coffee and left. mr. jenner. did you see any other evidence of his having had breakfast? mrs. paine. that was all he normally had for breakfast. mr. jenner. a plastic coffee cup with some remains in it of coffee? mrs. paine. instant coffee; yes. mr. jenner. what was his habit with respect to his breakfast when he made his visits? mrs. paine. it was very normal for him to take coffee. mr. jenner. was marina up and about when you arose at : ? mrs. paine. no; she was not. mr. jenner. do you have a recollection of the garage area? was the door to the garage, the entrance to the garage from the kitchen, closed or open? mrs. paine. it was closed. would it help if i tried to narrate what happened? mr. jenner. yes. mr. mccloy. go ahead and narrate. mrs. paine. i fixed breakfast for myself and my children, turned on the television set to hear president kennedy speak in fort worth, and had breakfast there. i left the house about with my little girl and boy, because she had a dentist appointment, the little girl. i left the television set on, feeling that marina might not think to turn it on, but i knew that she would be interested to see president kennedy. i then was gone until nearly noon, : or so, both to the dentist and on some errands following that, came back and there was coverage of the fact of the motorcade in dallas, but there was no television cameras showing it, as you know, and marina thanked me for having left the television set on. she said she woke up in kind of a bad mood, but she had seen the arrival of president kennedy and mrs. kennedy at the airport in dallas, and had been thrilled with this occasion and with the greeting he had received, and it had lifted her spirits. very shortly after this time, i had only just begun to prepare the lunch, the announcement was made that the president had been shot, and i translated this to marina. she had not caught it from the television statement. and i was crying as i did the translation. and then we sat down and waited at the television set, no longer interested in the preparing of lunch, and waited to hear further word. i got out some candles and lit them, and my little girl also lighted a candle, and marina said to me, "is that a way of praying?", and i said "yes, it is, just my own way." and it was well over an hour before we heard definitely that the president was dead. mr. jenner. how did that come to your attention? mrs. paine. it was announced on the television. i think it was even still in the intervening time. it was announced on the television that the shot which was supposed to have killed the president was fired from the texas school book depository building on elm. mr. jenner. did you communicate that to her? mrs. paine. marina at this time was in the yard hanging some clothes. i recall going out to her and telling her this. mr. jenner. what did she say? mrs. paine. i don't believe she said anything. i then also---- mr. jenner. excuse me. you say "i don't believe she said anything." is it your recollection? mrs. paine. i don't recall anything at all that she said. mr. jenner. would you---- mr. mccloy. you told her that you had heard over the television? mrs. paine. i heard that the shot had been made---- mr. mccloy. coming from the texas school book depository? mrs. paine. schoolbook depository, and i believe i also said i didn't know there was a building on elm. senator cooper. why did you go out to tell her, this fact? mrs. paine. i felt this was terribly close, somebody working in that building had been there. i thought lee might be able to say somewhat about what happened, had been close to the event. this was my thought, that we would know somebody who would be able to give or possibly give a first-hand---- senator cooper. did you have any thought at all that lee oswald might have been the man who fired the shot? mrs. paine. absolutely none; no. mr. jenner. why was that, mrs. paine? mrs. paine. i had never thought of him as a violent man. he had never said anything against president kennedy, nor anything about president kennedy. i had no idea that he had a gun. there was nothing that i had seen about him that indicated a man with that kind of grudge or hostility. mr. mccloy. but you told this to marina because of the association of lee oswald with the schoolbook depository? mrs. paine. yes. i then proceeded to hang some clothes. mr. jenner. she did not comment? mrs. paine. she did not comment. mr. jenner. made no comment? mrs. paine. that is my recollection, that she made no comment. i then helped hang the clothes. my recollection skips then to being again in front of the television listening, and it was then that we heard that the president was dead. we were both sitting on the sofa. mr. jenner. marina had come in from the yard? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. from the hanging of the clothes? mrs. paine. i don't recall whether we came in together or whether she preceded me into the house while i finished hanging up the clothes. but i do recall then next sitting on the sofa when the announcement was definitely made that the president was dead. and she said to me "what a terrible thing this was for mrs. kennedy and for the two children." i remember her words were, "now the two children will have to grow up without the father." it was very shortly after this we were still sitting on the sofa. mr. mccloy. just take a little time and compose yourself. mrs. paine. my neighbor, mrs. roberts, came in, really i think to see if we had heard, and---- senator cooper. why don't you rest a few minutes? mrs. paine. i can proceed. i recall my feeling of anger with her for not being more upset, or she didn't appear to me to be, any more than reporting a remarkable news item. then it was shortly after that that the bell rang and i went to the door and met some six officers from the sheriff's office and police station. mr. jenner. was this approximately : p.m.? mrs. paine. oh, i think it was earlier, but i wouldn't be certain. i know that we had put our children to bed. they were all taking a nap, though i am not certain. yes, my little girl was asleep also. i cried after i had heard that the president was dead, and my little girl was upset, too, always taking it from me more than from any understanding of the situation. and she cried herself to sleep on the sofa, and i moved her to her bed, and christopher was already asleep in his crib. june was in bed asleep. mr. jenner. was marina emotional at all? did she cry? mrs. paine. no. she said to me, "i feel very badly also, but we seem to show that we are upset in different ways." she did not actually cry. mr. mccloy. may i go back a moment there, if i may. you said you were sitting on the sofa--that she and you were sitting on the sofa. while you were listening or looking at the television, was there any announcement over the television of a suspicion being cast at lee? mrs. paine. it had just been announced that they had caught someone in a theatre, but there was no name given. mr. mccloy. so up to this point there was no suggestion that lee was involved? mrs. paine. no; not until the time the officers came to the door. mr. mccloy. not until the officers came? mrs. paine. do you want to ask me about that? mr. jenner. yes. now, the officers came to the door---- mr. mccloy. pardon me. were you asking a question? mr. jenner. i was waiting for you. mr. mccloy. senator cooper reminded me that there were comments, apparently to the effect that somebody from that building had fired the shots. did you hear that when you were sitting on the sofa with marina? did you hear that comment on the television? mrs. paine. no; that was earlier. mr. mccloy. that was even earlier? mrs. paine. yes; before it was announced that he was dead. senator cooper. but when you were all sitting there---- mrs. paine. it was at that point that i went out to the yard to tell her. senator cooper. to tell her? mrs. paine. yes. senator cooper. after that when you went back in and you all were sitting on the sofa and she was there, were there any other comments over the television that someone from this building had fired the shot or that any suspects from---- mrs. paine. you mean, someone associated with the building? senator cooper. yes. mrs. paine. no; that was not said. senator cooper. there was nothing else said about that? mrs. paine. no; just that the shot came from the building. mr. mccloy. nothing else that you heard? mrs. paine. nothing else about it. mr. jenner. mrs. paine, you do have a definite recollection that you communicated to marina out in the yard that the shot had come from the texas school book depository? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and what did she do when you communicated that to her, apart from what she said? you told us what she said. what did she do? did she come in the house? mrs. paine. i don't recall. mr. jenner. did she enter the garage? mrs. paine. i don't know. i never saw her enter the garage, but my recollection is that i was outside hanging clothes after i told her this, but what i can't recall is whether she remained with me hanging the clothes or whether she went in the house. mr. jenner. she might have gone into the house? mrs. paine. she might have gone into the house. mr. jenner. but, in any event, you do not recall her entering the garage following your advising her of the announcement that the shot had come, or was thought to have come from the texas school book depository? mrs. paine. i do not recall. senator cooper. when you went out to tell her, was she hanging clothes? mrs. paine. she was hanging clothes. senator cooper. then did you go help her, and then both of you were hanging clothes? mrs. paine. i then helped her. what i can't remember is whether she remained and finished the job with me. i remember i finished, remained until they were all hung. senator cooper. do you remember at anytime after that whether or not you were hanging clothes alone? mrs. paine. that is what i am not certain about. i could well have been. mr. jenner. at anytime that afternoon, in any event, up to the time that the policeman rang your doorbell, did you observe or were you aware that marina had entered the garage? mrs. paine. i wasn't aware that she had entered, if she did. mr. jenner. i take it from your testimony it is possible that marina, after you advised her that the shot was thought to have come from this texas school book depository, that she might have been inside your home while you were still out in the yard? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. and, of course, if that is so, then she could have entered the garage while she was inside your home, and you were out in the yard hanging clothes? mrs. paine. and i would not have seen her; that is right. mr. jenner. now, this clothes-hanging occurred in the rear, the yard portion in the rear of your home; is that correct? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. is it possible--is there a window in the garage opening on the rear of your home on to that yard area, or is the wall blank? mrs. paine. the window one can look into from the area where one hangs clothes goes to the dining area. from where i stood, i could not have seen the door entering the garage, which would be just beyond---- mr. jenner. you are talking about the inside door? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. first i would like to know this---- mrs. paine. the answer to your question is clear if you see the plan of the interior of the house. no part of the garage shows, no wall or window or any part of the garage shows from the back---- mr. jenner. there is no opening from the rear of the garage, is there? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. so you can't see into the garage, at least from---- mrs. paine. from the back of my house you can't; no. mr. jenner. there are windows opening from your kitchen into the back part, into the yard, are there not? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and being in the yard, could you see when somebody passed across that window, let us say, headed for the garage area? mrs. paine. no. heading for the garage area, you would not pass across that window. mr. jenner. you would not. in any event, you had no consciousness at anytime that day or afternoon of marina having entered the garage up to the time the police came? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. is that true of the time in the morning that you have been describing? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. at anytime from : in the morning, from the time you awakened until the time the police came, you have no consciousness that marina was in the garage? mrs. paine. no consciousness of that. mr. jenner. did you enter the garage during this period of time? mrs. paine. i have no specific recollection of having done so. mr. jenner. and you have given us marina's total exclamation or response to your advising her that the shot had come from the texas school book depository? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. you have recounted that your next-door neighbor, mrs. robert--or is it roberts? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. came over. was marina present---- mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. when she arrived at your home? were you girls in the living room? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. did you sit down and talk? mrs. paine. no. she just came to the door to see if we had heard the news. mr. jenner. she was there just a bit of the time? mrs. paine. yes. she did not come, actually, into the house. mr. jenner. she did not. she stood in the doorway? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. is that correct? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and did she speak to you and to marina? mrs. paine. well, she spoke in english, and i doubt she said much more than, "have you heard?". mr. jenner. did marina say anything to you for translation of mrs. reynolds? mrs. paine. no. roberts. mr. jenner. mrs. roberts; while mrs. roberts was there? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. learning that you girls were aware of the events up to that moment, she left and, as far as you know, returned to her home? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. now, that morning--if i may, mr. chairman, because of the entry of the police, that is a good cutoff point, i would like to go back to the morning for the moment, or the evening before. mrs. paine, did you then have what might be called some curtain rods in your garage? mrs. paine. i believe there were. mr. jenner. do you have a recollection? mrs. paine. yes; they were stored in the garage, wrapped in loose brown paper. mr. jenner. is it the brown paper of the nature and character you described yesterday that you get at the market and have in a roll? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. had you wrapped that package yourself? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. now, curtain rods can be of various types. one type of curtain rod, as i remember, is a solid brass rod. others are hollow. some are shaped. would you describe these curtain rods, please? mrs. paine. they were a light weight. mr. jenner. excuse me; do you still have them? mrs. paine. i still have them. mr. jenner. all right. mrs. paine. metal rods that you slip the curtain over, not with a ring but just with the cloth itself, and they are expansion rods. mr. jenner. are they flat on one side? mrs. paine. they are flat on one side; about an inch wide and about a quarter of an inch thick. mr. jenner. and assume we are holding the rod horizontally, do the edges of the rod slip over? mrs. paine. yes. senator cooper. did you wrap these rods in the paper? had you wrapped them? mrs. paine. sometime previously i had. senator cooper. how long before? mrs. paine. oh, possibly a year. senator cooper. what? mrs. paine. possibly a year. senator cooper. as far as you know, they had never been changed? mrs. paine. moved about, but not changed. senator cooper. can you just describe the length? mrs. paine. yes. senator cooper. the length of the rods, at the time you wrapped them. mrs. paine. they would be inches when pushed together. senator cooper. what? mrs. paine. they would be about maybe inches when pushed together. senator cooper. you remember wrapping them. do you remember what the size, the length of the rods were at the time you wrapped them? mrs. paine. yes. senator cooper. how long? mrs. paine. didn't i answer about inches? mr. jenner. in other words, you pushed them together so that then, they were then their minimum length, unexpanded? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. they were not extended, and in that condition they were inches long? mrs. paine. something like that. mr. jenner. now, how many of them were there? mrs. paine. two. mr. jenner. these were lightweight metal? mrs. paine. very. now, there was another item that was both heavier and longer. mr. jenner. in that same package? mrs. paine. no; i don't think so. in another similar package wrapped up just to keep the dust off were two venetian blinds. i guess they were not longer, more like inches also, that had come from the two windows in my bedroom. i took them down to change, and put up pull blinds in their place. mr. jenner. and had you wrapped them? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. how many were there? mrs. paine. two. mr. jenner. and what was their length? mrs. paine. i think around inches. the width of these windows in the back bedroom. mr. jenner. let us return to the curtain rods first. do you still have those curtain rods? mrs. paine. i believe so. mr. jenner. you believe so, or you know; which? mrs. paine. i think michael went to look after the assassination, whether these were still in the garage. mr. jenner. did you have a conversation with michael as to whether he did or didn't look? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. why was he looking to see if the curtain rod package was there? mrs. paine. he was particularly interested in the wrapping, was the wrapping still there, the brown paper. mr. jenner. when did this take place? mrs. paine. after the assassination, perhaps a week or so later, perhaps when one of the fbi people were out; i don't really recall. mr. jenner. and was the package with the curtain rods found on that occasion? mrs. paine. it is my recollection it was. mr. jenner. what about the venetian blind package? mrs. paine. still there, still wrapped. mr. jenner. you are fully conscious of the fact that that package is still there? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and to the best of your knowledge, information, and belief the other package, likewise, is there? mrs. paine. yes. senator cooper. let me ask a question there. after the assassination, at anytime did you go into the garage and look to see if both of these packages were there? mrs. paine. a week and a half, or a week later. senator cooper. at any time? mrs. paine. did i, personally? senator cooper. have you seen these packages since the assassination? mrs. paine. it seems to me i recall seeing a package. senator cooper. what? mrs. paine. i don't recall opening it up and looking in carefully. i seem to recall seeing the package. senator cooper. both of them? mrs. paine. yes. senator cooper. or just one? mrs. paine. both. senator cooper. did you feel them to see if the rods were in there? mrs. paine. no. i think michael did, but i am not certain. senator cooper. but you never did, yourself? mrs. paine. it was not my most pressing---- senator cooper. what? mrs. paine. it was not the most pressing thing i had to do at that time. senator cooper. i know that. but you must have read after the assassination the story about lee oswald saying, he told mr. frazier, i think, that he was carrying some curtain rods in the car? mrs. paine. yes. senator cooper. do you remember reading that? mrs. paine. yes; i remember reading that. senator cooper. didn't that lead you--did it lead you then to go in and see if the curtain rods were there? mrs. paine. it was all i could do at that point to answer my door, answer my telephone, and take care of my children. senator cooper. i understand you had many things to do. mrs. paine. so i did not. senator cooper. you never did do it? mrs. paine. i am not certain whether i specifically went in and checked on that. i recall a conversation with michael about it and, to the best of my recollection, things looked as i expected to find them looking out there. this package with brown paper was still there. mr. jenner. by any chance, does that package appear in the photograph that you have identified of the interior of your garage? mrs. paine. i think it is this that is on a shelf almost to the ceiling. mr. jenner. may i get over here, mr. chairman? mrs. paine. along the west edge of the garage, up here. mr. jenner. in view of this, i think it is of some importance that you mark on commission exhibit what appears to you to be the package in which the curtain rods were. mrs. paine. to the best of my recollection. mr. jenner. now the witness has by an arrow indicated a shelf very close to the ceiling in the rear of the garage, and an arrow pointing to what appears to be a long package on that shelf, underneath which she has written "wrapping paper around venetian blinds"---- mrs. paine. "and thin." mr. jenner. what is the next word? mrs. paine. "curtain rods." mr. jenner. there were two packages, mrs. paine, one with the rods and one with the venetian blinds? mrs. paine. i can't recall. the rods were so thin they hardly warranted a package of their own, but that is rationalization, as you call it. mr. jenner. you do have a recollection that those rods were a very lightweight metal? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. do you? mrs. paine. yes. they were not round. mr. jenner. they were flat and slender? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. they were not at all heavy? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. they were curved? were they curved in any respect? mrs. paine. they curved at the ends to attach to the bracket that held them up on the wall. mr. jenner. may i use the chalk on the board, mr. chairman. perhaps it might be better for you, mrs. paine, so i don't influence you. would you draw a picture of the rods? mrs. paine. you are looking down from the top. it attaches here, well, over a loop thing on the wall. looking from the inside, it curves over a slight bit, and then this is recessed. mr. jenner. i am going to have to have you do that over on a sheet of paper. will you remain standing for the moment. we will give it an exhibit number. but i would like to have you proceed there. what did you say this was, in the lower diagram? mrs. paine. you are looking down. mr. jenner. now, where was the break? mrs. paine. the break? mr. jenner. you said they were extension. mrs. paine. that is right. when they are up on the window, it would be like that. mr. jenner. you have drawn a double line to indicate what would be seen if you were looking down into the u-shape of the rod? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. the double line indicates what on either side? mrs. paine. that the lightweight metal, white, turned over, bent around, something less than a quarter of an inch on each side. mr. jenner. now, would you be good enough to make the same drawing. we will mark that sheet as commission exhibit no. upon which the witness is now drawing the curtain rod. (commission exhibit no. was marked for identification.) mr. jenner. while you are doing that, mrs. paine, would you be good enough when you return to irving, tex., to see if those rods are at hand, and some of our men are going to be in irving next week. we might come out and take a look at them, and perhaps you might surrender them to us. mrs. paine. you are perfectly welcome to them. mr. jenner. would you in that connection, mrs. paine, do not open the package until we arrive? mrs. paine. i won't even look, then. mr. jenner. all right. now, would you mark "a" in the upper elevation and "b" in the lower elevation. the elevation in the drawing you have indicated as "a" is a depiction of what? mrs. paine. the curtain rod, as you might look at it from the top when it is hanging in its position, when it is placed in position on the window. mr. jenner. and "b"? mrs. paine. "b" is as it might appear if you could look at it from outside the house; the window. mr. jenner. while the rod was in place? mrs. paine. while the rod was in place. mr. jenner. you have written to the left-hand side "place at which it attaches to wall fixture," indicating the butt end of the curved side of the rod? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and the two oblongs, each of which you have put at the ends of depiction "b," represent the upturned ends of the fixtures at each end? mrs. paine. right. mr. jenner. would you put a little line as to where the break was in the rod. i offer in evidence, mr. chairman, as commission exhibit no. the drawing that the witness has just made, and about which she has testified. senator cooper. it will be admitted as part of the evidence. (commission exhibit no. was received in evidence.) mr. jenner. had there been any conversation between you and lee oswald, or between you and marina, or any conversation taking place in your presence prior to this occasion, in which the subject of curtain rods was mentioned? mrs. paine. no; there was no such conversation. mr. jenner. was the subject of curtain rods--had that ever been mentioned during all of these weekends that lee oswald had come to your home, commencing, i think you said, with his first return on october , ? mrs. paine. it had not been mentioned. mr. jenner. never by anybody? mrs. paine. by anybody. mr. jenner. had the subject of curtain rods been mentioned even inadvertently, let us say, by some neighbor talking about the subject, as to whether you had some curtain rods you weren't using? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. that might be loaned? i think you had testified that the curtain rods, when unextended, were inches long, approximately? mrs. paine. that is a guess. i would say, thinking further about it, it must be shorter than that. one went over a window that i am pretty sure was inches wide, and one went over a window that was inches wide, so it had to extend between these. they were identical, and had served at these different windows. mr. jenner. the rods were identical in length when unextended? mrs. paine. or when fully extended; yes. mr. jenner. what? mrs. paine. or when fully extended. mr. jenner. or when fully extended; yes. they could be extended to as great as inches? mrs. paine. at least that. i am just saying what windows they were used for. mr. jenner. if the rods are still available, we will be able to obtain them? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and we will know exactly their length, extended and unextended. now, as you think further about it, the rods when not extended, that is, when pushed together, might be but inches long? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. because you recall that you have a -inch-wide window. mrs. paine. i believe it is more that width than . mr. jenner. would you hold up your hands to indicate what you think the width or the length of the rods is when not extended? mrs. paine. oh, i don't recall. maybe like this. mr. jenner. would you measure that, mr. liebeler, please? mr. liebeler. about inches. mr. jenner. i intend to leave the subject of the curtain rods, gentlemen, if you have any questions. mr. mccloy. may i ask a question. did the fbi question you about the curtain rods any, or the dallas police officials? mrs. paine. not the dallas police. mr. mccloy. not the dallas police? mrs. paine. no. it is possible the fbi did. i don't recall such question. mr. mccloy. they didn't take any rods from the garage that you are aware of? mrs. paine. you are aware what the police took. i never did know exactly what they took. i have never heard any mention of the rods having left. mr. mccloy. you are not conscious of the dallas police ever talking to you about curtain rods? mrs. paine. absolutely no. mr. mccloy. but possibly some member of the fbi did? mrs. paine. possibly. i can't recall. mr. mccloy. you can't recall? mr. jenner. did you ever mention to the fbi anything, or anybody else up until recently, the existence of the curtain rods about which you have now testified? mrs. paine. i have already said michael and i discussed it. mr. jenner. when? mrs. paine. a week or two after the assassination would be my guess. mr. jenner. and did you discuss those particular curtain rods about which you have now testified? mrs. paine. we were particularly interested in seeing if the wrapping paper that we used to wrap these things was there, and it was. i recall that. representative ford. did lee oswald know where you kept this roll of wrapping paper? mrs. paine. to the best of my knowledge, he did not know where i kept it. i had never wrapped something when he was around. neither he nor marina had ever asked to use this paper or the string that i had. representative ford. where did you keep it? i don't recall precisely. mrs. paine. i can be very clear. there is a picture here of a large secretary desk on commission exhibit no. . it is in the bottom drawer, you see, in that desk. this is not the secretary desk upon which---- mr. jenner. the note was found? mrs. paine. the note was found. representative ford. you kept it in the lower drawer? mrs. paine. along with some gum tape and string. representative ford. and this is the section shown on commission exhibit ? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. mr. reporter, you caught the measurement by mr. liebeler, inches. mrs. paine, what is your best recollection as to how many curtain rods there were? mrs. paine. two, i am certain. mr. jenner. just two? and you wrapped the package yourself, did you? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. when you and michael undertook your discussion about curtain rods, did you or did he open up this package? mrs. paine. i don't recall. mr. jenner. is it your present best recollection that as far as you know, the package, as far as wrapping is concerned, is in the same condition now as when you wrapped it initially? mrs. paine. certainly very similar. senator cooper. what was the answer? mrs. paine. certainly very similar. i don't recall making any change. mr. jenner. is there a possibility that the package was unwrapped at anytime? mrs. paine. in connection with this inquiry of michael's; yes. mr. jenner. you think he might have but you don't know. mrs. paine. or i might have. i don't recall. i recall that it wasn't something that interested me as much as the other things i had to get done. mr. jenner. but the rods about which you have testified as far as you know are on the shelf in your garage at your home? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. do you recall whether when the fbi discussed this subject with you, if you can recall that, that you advised the fbi of these particular curtain rods? mrs. paine. i am not perfectly certain that they discussed it with me. mr. jenner. you just have no recollection of any interview with the fbi on this particular subject? mrs. paine. it seems to me they brought it up, but i don't recall the content nor whether they went out. i certainly think i would remember if i had gone out to the garage with an fbi representative. mr. jenner. but you do not? mrs. paine. but i do not remember such an occasion. mr. jenner. unless the members of the commission have any further questions with respect to the curtain rods, i will return to the afternoon. senator cooper. i want to ask just two questions. before the assassination, did you know where the package with the curtain rods in it was situated within the garage? mrs. paine. i gave it no attention but yes, it is my impression that i did go out to see if things were where i expected to find them. they were wrapped in brown paper, the curtain rods and venetian blinds. and found things there. i don't recall that i looked into the package. mr. jenner. you did find the package? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. what was the size of the package in length and width if you can remember at the time you wrapped it? mrs. paine. i suppose about like this, not closed but just wrapping paper folded over. mr. jenner. would you hold your hands there please. mrs. paine. yes. but by no means a neat package, just enough to keep the dust off. mr. liebeler. thirty-two and a half inches. senator cooper. what was the width of the package? mrs. paine. like so. senator cooper. that you wrapped? mrs. paine. now i am not certain. i am really thinking now of the package with the venetian blind. i don't recall exactly the package with the rods, whether they were included in this other or whether they warranted a package of their own. mr. liebeler. the witness indicated a width of approximately - / inches. senator cooper. i will ask one other question. the ends of the rod which are at right angles to the long surface, how long? what is their approximate size? mrs. paine. two and a half inches to three inches. senator cooper. what? mrs. paine. two and a half to three inches. senator cooper. all right, go ahead. mr. jenner. anyone entering your home from the outside walking up your driveway and looking in the windows, would they see anybody sitting on the sofa you have described? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. do you sit on the sofa to look at your television set? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. would you take the ground floor plan that is before you and indicate---- mrs. paine. do you want me to draw in the sofa and the television set? mr. jenner. no; i just want you to put an "x" as to where the sofa is, and put a double "x" as to where the television set is. now the opening that appears to the left of the double "x," is that a window or a door? mrs. paine. that is the front door. mr. jenner. and is there any window in that wall, in the living room wall. mrs. paine. practically the rest of the wall is window. mr. jenner. and on this drawing it appears as a solid wall? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. the fact is that is a picture window? mrs. paine. that is right. it is just your printing filled in. it is exactly like this. there it is. mr. jenner. turning to commission exhibit , the picture window is shown there, is it not? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. now it would be possible, would it not, if someone walked along the sidewalk and was intent on peering in to see if anyone is there, to see somebody sitting at the sofa looking at the television set? mrs. paine. oh, yes. (discussion off the record.) mr. mccloy. i am very anxious to hear your story before we leave. senator cooper. i can stay here while the details are filled in. mr. jenner. the police arrived and what occurred. mrs. paine. i went to the door. they announced themselves as from both the sheriff's office and the dallas police office, showed me at least one package or two. i was very surprised. mr. jenner. did you say anything? mrs. paine. i said nothing. i think i just dropped my jaw. and the man in front said by way of explanation "we have lee oswald in custody. he is charged with shooting an officer." this is the first i had any idea that lee might be in trouble with the police or in any way involved in the day's events. i asked them to come in. they said they wanted to search the house. i asked if they had a warrant. they said they didn't. they said they could get the sheriff out here right away with one if i insisted. and i said no, that was all right, they could be my guests. they then did search the house. i directed them to the fact that most of the oswald's things were in storage in my garage and showed where the garage was, and to the room where marina and the baby had stayed where they would find the other things which belonged to the oswalds. marina and i went with two or three of these police officers to the garage. mr. jenner. how many police officers were there? mrs. paine. there were six altogether, and they were busy in various parts of the house. the officer asked me in the garage did lee oswald have any weapons or guns. i said no, and translated the question to marina, and she said yes; that she had seen a portion of it--had looked into--she indicated the blanket roll on the floor. mr. jenner. was the blanket roll on the floor at that time? mrs. paine. she indicated the blanket roll on the floor very close to where i was standing. as she told me about it i stepped onto the blanket roll. mr. jenner. this might be helpful. you had shaped that up yesterday and i will just put it on the floor. mrs. paine. and she indicated to me that she had peered into this roll and saw a portion of what she took to be a gun she knew her husband to have, a rifle. and i then translated this to the officers that she knew that her husband had a gun that he had stored in here. mr. jenner. were you standing on the blanket when you advised---- mrs. paine. when i translated. i then stepped off of it and the officer picked it up in the middle and it bent so. mr. jenner. it hung limp just as it now hangs limp in your hand? mrs. paine. and at this moment i felt this man was in very deep trouble and may have done---- mr. mccloy. were the strings still on it? mrs. paine. the strings were still on it. it looked exactly as it had at previous times i had seen it. it was at this point i say i made the connection with the assassination, thinking that possibly, knowing already that the shot had been made from the school book depository, and that this was a rifle that was missing, i wondered if he would not also be charged before the day was out with the assassination. mr. jenner. did you say anything? mrs. paine. no; i didn't say that. mr. jenner. when the officer picked up the blanket package, did you hear any crinkling as though there was paper inside? mrs. paine. no crinkling. mr. jenner. none whatsoever. when you stepped on the package, did you have a feeling through your feet that there was something inside the package in the way of paper. mrs. paine. not anything in the way of paper. mr. jenner. or wrapping. mrs. paine. or anything that crinkled; no. i did think it was hard but that was my cement floor. mr. jenner. but definitely you had no sensation of any paper inside? mrs. paine. no such sensation. mr. jenner. of the nature or character of the wrapping paper you identified yesterday. mrs. paine. no; and when he picked it up i would think such paper would rattle, but there was no such sound. marina said nothing at this time. she was very white, and of course i judged---- mr. jenner. did she blanch? mrs. paine. she is not a person to immediately show her feelings necessarily. she was white. i wouldn't say that it was a sudden thing. i can't be certain that it was sudden at that point. representative ford. how close was she standing to it. mrs. paine. from here to there, about feet. mr. jenner. proceed. mrs. paine. the officers then said they would like me and marina to go down to the police station, and i said well, i would seek to try to get a baby-sitter to come to stay with the children so that we might accompany them. about this time, we then left the garage as i recall, because then michael paine arrived at the front door. i was in the living room when he came. and i said "did you know to come" and he said that he had heard oswald's name mentioned on the radio, and had come over directly, for which i may say i was very glad. mr. jenner. how far away from your home--where did he live? mrs. paine. it would take about a half hour drive--he was working--from where he was working to come, minutes perhaps. mr. jenner. do you have the address at the tip of your tongue? mrs. paine. where he works; no. i don't know the address. i know how to get to it. mr. jenner. do you know where he lived? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. what was the address? mrs. paine. he lived at the villa fontaine apartments, apartment , dalworth. mr. jenner. d-a-l-w-o-r-t-h? mrs. paine. d-a-l-w-o-r-t-h, in grand prairie, tex. mr. jenner. where is grand prairie, tex. mrs. paine. grand prairie is suburban to dallas, between dallas and fort worth, nearer to dallas, and it was a location very near to where he worked. mr. jenner. what distance in miles from your home? mrs. paine. you measure distance in minutes in texas; driving time. i don't know; minutes to where he lived. mr. jenner. all right, proceed. mrs. paine. the police officers then asked if michael would also accompany us to the police station and he said he would. i changed clothes to a suit from slacks, and went to the house of my babysitter. she has no telephone. i need to walk to her. mr. jenner. where was marina in the meantime? mrs. paine. marina remained in the house with the children. lynn by this time had awakened as i recall. christopher was still sleeping and i think june was also. and i said i would walk over to my neighbors to ask if--there was something that intervened i just remembered. i first went and asked my immediate neighbor, mrs. roberts, if she could keep the children for a short time in the afternoon, but she was just on her way to go somewhere. she couldn't. so then i went to the home of the person i normally have for a baby-sitter. it was now after school or this babysitter would not have been there, which brings us to : perhaps. and i asked the mother if the young girl, teenage girl, could come and stay at the house. i was accompanied to the house by one of the officers. as we left the house i said "oh, you don't have to go with me." oh, he said, he'd be glad to. and then it occurred to me he had been assigned to go with me, and i said "come along." it was the first i have ever experienced being in the company of people who suspected me of anything, and of course that is their business. we did arrange then for the girls to come back, one or two, i forget whether it was two of the daughters or one that came then to my house to stay with the children. as i came back, i noticed the officers carrying a number of things from the house, and i looked into the back of one of the cars. it was across the street from my house, and saw he had three cases of records of mine, and i said, "you don't need those and i want to use them on thanksgiving weekend. i have promised to lead a folk dance conference on the weekend. i will need those records which are all folk dance records and i doubt that you might get them back at that time." and i said, "that is a mm projector. you don't want that. it is mine." and he took me by the arm and he said, "we'd better get down to the station. we have wasted too much time as it is." and i said, "i want a list of what you are taking, please." or perhaps that was before. as much answer as i ever got was "we'd better get to the station." then i evidently had made them nervous because when we got back from this car to the house, marina wanted to change from slacks as i had already done to a dress. they would not permit her to do that. i said "she has a right to, she is a woman, to dress as she wishes before going down." and i directed her to the bathroom to change. the officer opened the bathroom door and said no, she had no time to change. i was still making arrangements with the babysitters, arranging for our leaving the children there, and one of the officers made a statement to the effect of "we'd better get this straight in a hurry mrs. paine or we'll just take the children down and leave them with juvenile while we talk to you." and i said "lynn, you may come too" in reply to this. i don't like being threatened. and then christopher was still sleeping so i left him in the house and lynn, my daughter, and marina took her daughter and her baby with her to the police station, so we were quite a group going into town in the car. michael was in one car, marina and i and all the children were in another with three police officers as i recall. one of them spoke some czech, tried to understand what was being said. the one in the front seat turned to me and said "are you a communist," and i said, "no, i am not, and i don't even feel the need of a fifth amendment." and he was satisfied with that. we went on then to the police station, and waited until such time as they could interview us. they interviewed michael at one point separately. mr. jenner. separately? mrs. paine. and they interviewed marina while i was present. mr. jenner. did you interpret for her? mrs. paine. they had an interpreter there, a mr. ilya mamantov whom i was very glad to see. he is the son-in-law of a woman who has tutored me in dallas, so i had met him before. i was very glad to have someone whose skill in russian was greater than mine, and marina had said even in the car going down to the station, "your russian has suddenly become no good at all." she had asked me again in the car, "isn't it true that the penalty for shooting someone in texas is the electric chair" and i said "yes, that is true." then at the police station---- representative ford. may i ask this. was there any interrogation other than what you have mentioned by police officers in the car? mrs. paine. no; none that i recall. representative ford. you and marina talked back and forth freely or to a limited degree? mrs. paine. we talked back and forth freely and then she wanted me to translate to the officer, to the one who understood some czech, to help him understand. then in the room where we were asked questions, what i particularly recall was they wanted marina to say what she had said in the garage to the effect that she had seen a rifle in that wrapped blanket, and she made the statement again and it was made up into an affidavit for her to sign with mr. mamantov making very clear the translation of each sentence, each word, and i recall her statement was to the effect that she had looked in and seen a portion of the gun, of something which she took to be the gun she knew her husband had; that she had not opened the package, but had just looked into it. they then brought in---- mr. jenner. mrs. paine, a slight interruption. mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. was the occasion when mrs. oswald, marina, made the remark of having seen a weapon inside the blanket, was that the first notice that you had of any kind or character that there was a weapon in your garage? mrs. paine. that is absolutely the first. indeed it was contrary to my expectation as i said. when the officer asked me i answered his question before i even translated it, answered it in the negative, and then translated it and found that indeed there had been a gun there. mr. jenner. all right, go ahead. mrs. paine. they then showed a gun, a rifle to marina, and asked her if she could identify the gun as being her husband's. she said her husband had a dark gun, dark in color, that she wasn't absolutely certain that this was the gun. she couldn't definitely recall the sight on the top of it. mr. jenner. the telescope sight? mrs. paine. yes. then i also was asked to make an affidavit which i signed, to the effect that i had heard her say in the garage that she had looked into this package and seen what she took to be a rifle she knew her husband had. it was after they had finished with this session that i went back in the same room where michael was, and mrs. oswald, senior, came in, mrs. marguerite oswald. mr. jenner. had you met her at anytime up to that moment? mrs. paine. no. i had never met her before. mr. jenner. had you ever talked with her at anytime up to that moment? mrs. paine. i had never talked with her. mr. jenner. were you advised in advance of anything that had been said that she was to come? mrs. paine. no. she said she had heard on her car radio, on her way to work in the afternoon. mr. jenner. what time was this about? mrs. paine. she heard it? mr. jenner. no; that she came? mrs. paine. it was, it was certainly supper time. we had eaten no lunch. mr. jenner. all right. mrs. paine. and she said she heard on her car radio that lee oswald had been in custody in dallas and had come over. previously during october and november marina had told me she regretted that lee didn't wish to keep up contact with his mother because she thought it was only proper to tell the mother of the coming grandchild, and then she wanted to announce the birth when the baby had come but she said lee didn't try to keep her address, and marina didn't know how to contact her or didn't want to do so around her husband certainly. there was a warm greeting in the police station. mr. jenner. between whom? mrs. paine. between marguerite oswald and marina oswald and i recall both wept and mrs. marguerite oswald exclaimed over the new baby, and then held the baby. i then also met robert oswald. mr. jenner. when did he come with relation to when marguerite oswald entered? mrs. paine. it seemed to me later. mr. jenner. had you met robert oswald at anytime up to that moment? mrs. paine. no; i had not. mr. jenner. was there any discussion that had taken place during the course of the day up to that moment indicating to you that robert oswald might or would arrive on the scene? mrs. paine. no; nothing that day about robert at all. mr. jenner. when he entered was there an indication to you at all that none of the people, in addition to yourself, was aware that he was about to--that they had any advance advice that he was going to be present? mrs. paine. there was no indication of any advance advice to any of the people. mr. jenner. was there any indication to the contrary? mrs. paine. i don't think anyone was really surprised that he had come. mr. jenner. there was this lack of prior notice? mrs. paine. lack of prior notice. we then talked about where to go. mr. jenner. excuse me, does the "we" include your husband all the time? mrs. paine. the "we" then was a group at this point of my husband, marguerite oswald, marina oswald, robert oswald, and myself, three children. mr. jenner. did your husband know robert oswald prior to this time? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. were they introduced to each other on this occasion? mrs. paine. they were in the same room and they might have been. it was agreed that robert was to stay in a hotel. marguerite oswald asked if she could come out and stay with marina at my home, and it was agreed. mr. jenner. was it agreed that marina would stay at your house that night? mrs. paine. yes; certainly all her baby things were there. so, we went back there. we were taken back by police officers. mr. jenner. everybody assumed she would return back to your home? mrs. paine. oh, yes. mr. jenner. was there any discussion that would indicate any reluctance on the part of anybody that she return to your home? mrs. paine. none. mr. jenner. none whatsoever by anybody? mrs. paine. that is correct, none whatsoever by anybody. the police officers brought us back to my home. it was by this time dark, and i think it was about o'clock in the evening. i asked michael to go out and buy hamburgers at a drive-in so we wouldn't have to cook, and we ate these as best we could, and began to prepare to retire. we talked. i have a few specific recollections of that period that i will put in here. just close to the time of retiring marina told me that just the night before lee had said to her he hoped they could get an apartment together again soon. as she said this, i felt she was hurt and confused, wondering how he could have said such a thing which indicated wanting to be together with her when he must have already been planning something that would inevitably cause separation. i asked her did she think that lee had killed the president and she said, "i don't know." and i felt that this was not something to talk about really anyway. but my curiosity overcame my politeness. now, back a little bit to the time in the living room, mrs. oswald and michael and marina and i were all there, and mrs. oswald, i recall, said, i mean of course mrs. marguerite oswald---- mr. jenner. yes. mrs. paine. that if they were prominent people there would be three of the lawyers down in the city jail now trying to defend her son, and coming to his aid. she felt that since they were just small people that there wouldn't--they wouldn't get the proper attention or care, and i tried to say this was not a small case. that most careful attention would be given it, but she didn't feel that way. mr. jenner. you made no impression on her? mrs. paine. i made no impression on her. mr. jenner. i take it---- mrs. paine. she made an impression on me. mr. jenner. i think we would prefer if you would call her marguerite. it would avoid confusion. mrs. paine. all right. somewhere in that evening before we retired, and after we had eaten, the doorbell rang and two men from life magazine appeared. i was---- mr. jenner. had you had any advance notice? mrs. paine. we had had no advance notice. mr. jenner. nobody did? mrs. paine. nobody did. mr. jenner. you in particular and none of the others in the room? mrs. paine. none of the others. mr. jenner. that was your impression? mrs. paine. i would be quite certain that none of the others and myself---- mr. jenner. at least that was your impression at the moment? mrs. paine. that they had no prior information that these people might come. i will say i was not surprised that anyone of the press found his way to our door at that point. if anything, i was surprised there weren't more. life magazine was the only company or group to appear that evening. i permitted them to come in, and i felt that mrs. marguerite oswald was interested in the possibility of their buying the story or paying for what information she and marina might give them. mr. jenner. had that occurred to you? mrs. paine. had that occurred to me? no. but then, too, i wasn't thinking about pay for lawyers but she made that connection verbally in my presence. mr. jenner. what connection? mrs. paine. between the need for money. mr. jenner. yes. mrs. paine. the availability of life magazine and the need to pay for a lawyer. mr. jenner. and she was the one who raised that subject? mrs. paine. yes; she raised it. mr. jenner. for commercialization of the story? mrs. paine. i recall now she raised it definitely enough that mr. tommy thompson of life called, i believe still that evening, to see if he could offer anything or what he might be empowered to offer. mr. jenner. that was all instigated by her? mrs. paine. yes; very much so. i noticed that the other man, whose name i forget, had a camera and i was amazed, and i also saw he took a picture and i was amazed, he tried with a dim light in the room. mr. jenner. when you say he took a picture, you don't mean he took a picture from your living room? mrs. paine. he took a picture in my living room. he photographed. i saw him wind his roll. mr. jenner. thank you. mrs. paine. i made the mistake i now think of turning on another light simply as an act of hostess, it was dim in the living room but i hadn't realized until later that i was making it possible for him to take a picture. i didn't know what was best for me to do as hostess. it seemed to me that mrs. oswald, sr., mrs. marguerite oswald, was both interested in encouraging the life magazine representatives and still didn't really want her picture taken, and i had no personal objection to their being there. but i considered the oswalds my guests and i didn't want to have the life magazine people there if they didn't want them. but they left fairly promptly, saying that they would come back in the morning. mr. jenner. did they say anything about your talking or not talking to any other news media representatives until they had talked with you? mrs. paine. not to me. mr. jenner. nothing of that implied? mrs. paine. no. it was after this that the conversation i have already related with marina took place, and we finished our preparations for bed. she said to me she didn't think she would sleep fairly soon and asked if she could borrow my hair dryer, she would stay up and take a shower, which she often said renewed her spirits, and i then went to bed, having given her my hair dryer. we woke perhaps something after the next morning or closer to . mr. jenner. when you say "we", who do you mean? mrs. paine. the household. i think we had not yet--we pretty much woke all at once. mr. jenner. did your husband remain at your home? mrs. paine. yes; he remained at my home that night, the first time he had been there in a great long time. we were still eating breakfast or had just begun when the two life people arrived again, this time with an interpreter, a woman doctor whose name i don't remember, and marguerite oswald and marina oswald, with her two little girls went with these two life magazine people to downtown dallas for the purpose of seeing lee, and marguerite oswald wanted to see that he got legal counsel immediately. they were acting, the life people were acting in this case as shovers, i feel, and i also thought marguerite oswald was hoping that something could be arranged between them, that would be financially helpful. mr. jenner. did she say anything that further stimulated your thoughts and reaction in that direction? mrs. paine. yes. i don't recall specifically but i have the clear impression that---- mr. jenner. from her conversation with the life representatives? mrs. paine. from her conversation. yes. they left quite soon, i remember wishing marina had taken more time to have more breakfast since it was going to be a trying day, and that is the last i saw her until march , in the evening, very recently. mr. jenner. march , ? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. just a week or so ago? mrs. paine. that is right. she left, of course, expecting to come back. she took only the immediate needs of the baby's diapers and bottle, and i fully expected her to come back later that same day. i don't really recall. i think there must have been some newsmen out then that morning, later that morning. mr. jenner. to see you, at your home? mrs. paine. at my home. i would be certain of that. the houston post--well, yes. and michael was there also, at least in the morning as i recall, and talked with these people. i believe the local paper, irving news, was there. then michael, as i recall, went to do something related to his work or had to do some shopping. mr. jenner. he left your home? mrs. paine. anyway, in the afternoon i was the only one there and i felt i had better get some grocery shopping done so as to be prepared for a long stay home just answering the doorbell and telling what i could to the people who wanted to know. i was just preparing to go to the grocery store when several officers arrived again from the dallas police office and asked if they could search. this time i was in the yard, the front yard on the grass, and asked if they could search and held up their warrant and i said, yes, they could search. they said they were looking for something specific and i said, "i want to go to the grocery store, i'll just go and you go ahead and do your searching." i then went to the grocery store and when i came back they had finished and left, locking my door which necessitated my getting out my key, i don't normally lock my door when i go shopping. representative ford. did you take your children shopping? mrs. paine. always. then about : or i got a telephone call. mr. jenner. the phone rang? mrs. paine. the phone rang; i answered it. mr. jenner. did you recognize the voice? mrs. paine. i recognized the voice but i don't recall what he said? mr. jenner. what did the voice say? mrs. paine. the voice said: "this is lee." mr. jenner. give your best recollection of everything you said and if you can, please, everything he said, and exactly what you said. mrs. paine. i said, "well, hi." and he said he wanted to ask me to call mr. john abt in new york for him after p.m. he gave me a telephone number of an office in new york and a residence in new york. mr. jenner. two telephone numbers he gave you? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. one office and one residence of mr. john abt. did he say who mr. john abt was? mrs. paine. he said he was an attorney he wanted to have. mr. jenner. represent him? mrs. paine. to represent him. he thanked me for my concern. mr. jenner. did he tell you or ask you what you were to do or say to mr. abt if you reached him? mrs. paine. i carried the clear impression i was to ask him if he would serve as attorney for lee oswald. mr. jenner. all right. have you given the substance of the conversation in as much detail, of the entire conversation, as you now can recall? mrs. paine. there is a little more that is---- senator cooper. why don't you just go ahead and tell it as you remember it, everything that he said and you said? mrs. paine. i can't give the specific words to this part but i carry a clear impression, too, that he sounded to me almost as if nothing out of the ordinary had happened. i would make this telephone call for him, would help him, as i had in other ways previously. he was, he expressed gratitude to me. i felt, but did not express, considerable irritation at his seeming to be so apart from the situation, so presuming of his own innocence, if you will, but i did say i would make the call for him. then he called back almost immediately. i gather that he had made the call to me on the permission to make a different call and then he got specific permission from the police to make a call to me and the call was identical. mr. jenner. this is speculation? mrs. paine. this is speculation but the content of the second call was almost identical. mr. jenner. the phone rang? mrs. paine. he asked me to contact john abt. mr. jenner. he identified himself and he asked you to make the call? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. what did he say? mrs. paine. he wanted me to call this lawyer. mr. jenner. did you express any surprise for him to call back almost immediately giving you the same message that he had given previously? mrs. paine. i think somebody must have said, that the officers had said he could call, make this call. mr. jenner. did you say anything about the fact that he had already just called you about the same subject matter? mrs. paine. he may have added. mr. jenner. did you, please? mrs. paine. no. i was quite stunned that he called at all or that he thought he could ask anything of me, appalled, really. mr. mccloy. did he say he was innocent, or did he just have this conversation with respect to the retention of a counsel? mrs. paine. that is all. mr. jenner. at no time during either of those conversations did he deny that he was in any way involved in this situation? mrs. paine. he made no reference to why he was at the police station or why he needed a lawyer. mr. jenner. he just assumed that you knew he was at the police station, did he? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. that was your impression? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. he didn't say where he was? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. he just started out saying what you now say he said? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. but in no respect did he say to you that he was entirely innocent of any charges that had been made against him? mrs. paine. he did not say that. mr. jenner. did he mention the subject at all of the assassination of the president or the slaying of officer tippit? mrs. paine. no; he did not. mr. jenner. what you have given is your best recollection of the entire conversation? mrs. paine. that is correct. representative ford. this was saturday afternoon, november ? mrs. paine. yes. representative ford. about what time? mrs. paine. four, perhaps in the afternoon. representative ford. had you seen him the day before? mrs. paine. no. mr. mccloy. who was in the house with you when that call came in? mrs. paine. just my children. mr. mccloy. just your children. representative ford. while you were shopping and after the officers had come with a warrant, they went in the house, no one was in the house? mrs. paine. for a portion of the time they were looking, no one was in the house. representative ford. they were there alone? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. mccloy. did they indicate--were they still there when you got back? mrs. paine. no; they were not. remember the door was locked. mr. mccloy. yes; the door was locked, that is what i gather. do you know what they took on this occasion, or did they tell you what they were coming for? mrs. paine. no; i do not. before i left they were leafing through books to see if anything fell out but that is all i saw. mr. mccloy. all right. mrs. paine. in this interim then, i suppose i talked to some more news people but i want to get to the next important point which was that lee called again. mr. jenner. a third time? mrs. paine. i really call the first two one, but it was twice dialed. mr. jenner. fix the time, please. mrs. paine. it was around : in the evening. mr. jenner. who was home? was your husband there on that occasion? mrs. paine. i don't recall. mr. jenner. was anyone else other than your children and yourself in your home at the time of the receipt of the call in the evening? mrs. paine. it could only have been michael. i would remember someone else. mr. jenner. but you have no definite recollection that even he was present? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. all right. the phone rang, you answered it. mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. did you recognize the voice? mrs. paine. i recognized the voice. mr. jenner. whose was it? mrs. paine. it was lee oswald's. mr. jenner. what did he say and what did you say? mrs. paine. he said, "marina, please," in russian. mr. jenner. please, mrs. paine, did he speak to you in english in the conversations in the afternoon or in russian? mrs. paine. he spoke in english the entire conversation. mr. jenner. the two in the afternoon? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. now, however, he resorted to russian, did he? mrs. paine. yes. he planned to speak to marina. mr. jenner. i beg your pardon? mrs. paine. he planned to speak to marina, and this opening phrase was one he normally used calling as he had many previous times to speak to her. mr. jenner. he was under the assumption, you gathered, that marina was in your home? mrs. paine. he certainly was. mr. jenner. all right. mrs. paine. and i would be fairly certain that i answered him in english. i said she was not there, that i had a notion about where she might be, but i wasn't at all certain. that i would try to find out. he said, he wanted me to--he said he thought she should be at my house. he felt irritated at not having been able to reach her. and he wanted me to---- mr. jenner. did he sound irritated? mrs. paine. yes; he sounded just a slight edge to his voice. and he wanted me to deliver a message to her that he thought she should be at my house. mr. jenner. and he so instructed you? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. that is what he said? mrs. paine. yes. that was so far as i remember, the entire conversation. mr. jenner. what response did you give to his direction? mrs. paine. i said i would try to reach her. mr. jenner. his direction---- mrs. paine. and tell her his message. mr. jenner. all right. mrs. paine, in the meantime, had you sought to reach john abt? mrs. paine. i had, after o'clock, thank you. i had dialed both numbers and neither answered. mr. jenner. neither answered. was there any conversation between you and lee oswald in the evening conversation to which you reported to him your inability to reach mr. abt? mrs. paine. i do not specifically recall. mr. jenner. or the subject of mr. abt at all? mrs. paine. i don't want to get into rationalization. i can judge that something was said but i do not recall it specifically. mr. jenner. now, have you given the full extent of that conversation? mrs. paine. to the best of my recollection. mr. jenner. at anytime during that conversation with lee harvey oswald did he assert or intimate in any form or fashion his innocence of any charges against him? mrs. paine. no; he did not. mr. jenner. was the assassination mentioned at all? mrs. paine. no; it was not. mr. jenner. was the shooting or murder of officer tippit mentioned? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. you have given everything that was said in that conversation as best you are able to recall it at the moment? mrs. paine. that is right. i then tried the only thing i knew to do, to try to reach marina. i had heard one of the fbi agents try to find her when he was at my home, had dialed the hotel where the life people were staying, and asked to be put in contact with marina and was told, i judge, because he repeated it and wrote it down. executive inn. here i am turning detective in this small way. mr. jenner. you also mentioned now for the first time there were fbi agents in your home? mrs. paine. that day. mr. jenner. during the course of the day? mrs. paine. yes. i then dialed---- mr. jenner. you shook your head, did you shake your head in the affirmative? mrs. paine. yes; there were fbi agents in my home during the day. one i recalled made this telephone call. i was waiting to hear from marina to see if she wanted to talk with me. i had no desire to press her or to attempt to reach her unless she wanted to reach me, but then with this message, i went ahead and dialed the executive inn and asked for tommy thompson, and marguerite oswald answered, and i said i would like to talk to marina, and she said, "well, marina is in the bathroom," and i said to marguerite that lee had called me, that he wanted me to deliver a message to marina, that he wished for her to be at my home, and marguerite oswald said, "well, he is in prison, he don't know the things we are up against, the things we have to face. what he wants doesn't really matter," which surprised me. and again i asked to speak to marina and waited until i did speak to her and delivered the same message in russian to her but there was no further---- mr. jenner. what response did marina make to the message that you conveyed to her? mrs. paine. she said she was very tired and wanted to get to bed, as i recall, and thought it was certainly best to stay there that night. mr. jenner. is that your best recollection? mrs. paine. yes. and i certainly agreed with her. mr. jenner. did she say anything in response to your delivery of lee oswald's message about marina staying with you, of the possibility of her staying with you, say, the next day? mrs. paine. nothing of that nature was said. i think i remember that we did discuss whether she had seen lee during the day, and on that occasion it seems to me i learned that she had seen him around noon but i may be wrong about when i learned that. i knew she had seen him. mr. jenner. either in that conversation or any other conversation with marina that you may have had, was the subject of lee oswald's attitude or any comments he made mentioned? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. nobody reported to you anything about any conversation they might or did have with lee oswald either on the d or d or even on the th of november ? mrs. paine. no. i am of the impression i again tried the home telephone of john abt on sunday morning, but i am not certain, and there was no answer. that i certainly remember. mr. mccloy. did you ever reach abt? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. did you ever attempt to report to lee oswald that you had been unable to reach mr. abt? mrs. paine. not unless such transpired in our : conversation saturday evening, but i made no effort to call the police station itself. mr. jenner. excuse me? mrs. paine. i made no effort to call the police station. mr. jenner. did you have at anytime any further conversations with lee oswald? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. other than what you have now related? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. mccloy. did you have any impression as to why he wanted marina to come back with you? was it in order to make her available for telephone calls from him or what? mrs. paine. what is distinctly my impression is that he thought she should be available. that it was she wasn't where he could find her that irritated him rather than that he thought this was the best place for her. representative ford. did you know of mr. abt or was this just---- mrs. paine. i had never heard of mr. abt before. representative ford. never heard of him? mrs. paine. that is right. senator cooper. did marguerite oswald explain any further, in the statement you said she made, about having too many obstacles or having obstacles or having troubles? mrs. paine. are you referring to the statement on friday night when she was at my home? senator cooper. no. i think you said a few minutes ago when she went to the hotel you called her and told her what lee oswald had told you to tell marina. mrs. paine. yes. senator cooper. i think you said she said something about---- mrs. paine. "well, he doesn't understand the things we are up against or things of this nature." what i remember most clearly is that she didn't seem to care whether he was told the truth or not. mr. jenner. what? mrs. paine. well, that is perhaps a further statement, told the truth about--had it seemed to me a lack of respect on her part. she didn't care what his wishes were in the situation, in other words. and this sticks in my mind. mr. jenner. did you have any conversation with robert oswald on the d, subsequent to the time that you met him when he first come to the police station? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. did you on the d of november? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. the th? mrs. paine. i believe the only other time i saw robert was some weeks or more later when he came with two other people to pick up the rest of marina's things. mr. jenner. then from the d of november until he came sometime in december you had no conversation with him and you had not seen him? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. you had no contact at all with him? mrs. paine. that is my best recollection. marina called me around noon on sunday, the th. she said she was with the police, and, of course, this was said in russian; i don't know whether she meant secret service or irving police or dallas police or what sort, but official. her husband had already been shot at this time, so it was just after. he had been shot and i had the television on and i knew that. representative ford. did she know it? mrs. paine. i am certain she did. what makes me certain i can't recall definitely. i felt that she was confining herself in her conversation to the things she just had to say. senator cooper. what did she say? mrs. paine. she was directing me how to find certain things she needed to have. a winter coat, things for the baby, a little purse with some money in it that she left either on top of the dresser or in a drawer in the bedroom where they had stayed. mr. jenner. did she sound less than cordial---- mrs. paine. oh, no, she sounded, as i recall it, as a call from a woman who was doing her best to simply achieve the things she had to do but was under a tremendous strain. mr. jenner. was any mention made of the death of her husband? mrs. paine. he was not yet dead, he had been shot but he was not yet dead. mr. jenner. was any mention made between you in this conversation of the fact that lee oswald had been shot? mrs. paine. i don't recall such. mr. jenner. you didn't mention it? mrs. paine. i did not tell her; no. mr. jenner. did you--it might be natural that you would express sympathy. did you mention the subject at all, sympathetical or otherwise? mrs. paine. i don't recall mentioning the subject and as i say, i have this distinct feeling that she knew, and i knew she knew but what caused that, i can't identify. mr. jenner. did you have the feeling, if i may use some vernacular, that she was "under wraps" or rather she was bereft and just seeking to do---- mrs. paine. i had no feeling she was restraining herself from saying any particular things. mr. jenner. was under restraint? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. from some outside source? mrs. paine. i had no such feeling. mr. jenner. all right. mrs. paine. i then, well, i should say there were one or two officers from the irving police department there who were waiting to take the things that she directed---- mr. jenner. the police officers had already arrived at your home? mrs. paine. yes; i guess i remembered it as virtually simultaneous. i might fill in, whether it is important to your inquiry or not, the moment the television announced that lee oswald had been shot, an irving police patrol car that had been going by my house and had hesitated in front, stopped and the officer got out carrying a rifle and came into my house, closed the curtains and said he was here to protect me. i later learned that he thought mrs. oswald, marina oswald, was in the house, and he had been directed by his car radio to come in, and he then closed all the blinds and peered out. and it was in the midst of this time that marina called, so you see the officers were there already on other business. mr. jenner. the officer was in your home when you talked with marina? mrs. paine. yes; when marina made the call. mr. jenner. did you say anything to the officers that marina had called when you finished that conversation? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. you told them? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. did you tell them anything of the substance of the call? mrs. paine. yes; that i was to get some things and i think they had the same information separately a different way from a car radio or something at the same time, which was to put some things together to take to her. i did then pack one or two, or even three of the suit cases we talked about yesterday with baby things. mr. jenner. excuse me, mrs. paine. you keep referring to one or two or three. were there as many as three? mrs. paine. i think there were as many as three, including a very small, you might say, cosmetic case, only more, not as fancy as that. this was in her room, and i recall looking in it and seeing a family album of photographs and thinking this had better be in her hands, and included that along with clothes. i sent a childs toy, some things that i thought might be helpful to her in keeping her children happy as well as the individual items she had asked for specifically. mr. mccloy. did you sense any note of estrangement at all between you and marina when she telephoned you? mrs. paine. no; the situation was strained. mr. mccloy. strained because she hadn't reappeared, you mean? mrs. paine. no; because her husband had been shot. mr. mccloy. no; i meant in your conversation with her was there any indication of any coolness between you? mrs. paine. no; none i detected. mr. jenner. had you noticed any when you were in the police station? mrs. paine. oh, no. mr. jenner. on the previous day? mrs. paine. oh, no. mr. jenner. none at all. so that up to the moment of this telephone conversation and after you finished you had no feeling there was any estrangement, any coolness, any change in attitude on the part of marina toward you as a person? mrs. paine. no. mr. mccloy. have you felt any evidence of that since? mrs. paine. yes; and that has several parts to it and i could easily go into it now. mr. jenner. i was going to ask her some general questions and senator cooper asked me if i would permit her just to go through the day as she has without, with a minimum of, interruptions so that you and he might, and representative ford, might ask some general questions before you left, so that is what i have done. mr. mccloy. have you completed your report? mrs. paine. that brings us to the th so that all else is really quite post the assassination. mr. mccloy. there is one thing i would like to ask before i go, if i may, and that is your husband testified that several times he had moved this blanket when it was in the garage. can you fix the date when he was in your house and working in the garage so that he was compelled to move the blanket? when did he come to---- mrs. paine. he normally came on friday evening. he would sometimes come on a sunday afternoon, and either of those times could have been times that he had worked in the garage. mr. mccloy. that was all through september, october? mrs. paine. yes; september, october; yes. mr. mccloy. but when he had been working there he never mentioned to you any--about the existence of this blanket, package which he had been compelled to move? mrs. paine. no. that didn't come up until after the assassination. mr. mccloy. it didn't come up until after the assassination. mr. jenner. excuse me, you are seeking to refresh your recollection from what document, please? mrs. paine. i am looking at a calendar to see if there is anyway that i can tell when michael was in the house. mr. jenner. that is commission exhibit number what? mrs. paine. . but it has not helped me in refreshing my memory. mr. mccloy. did you have contacts with the fbi and if so what were they before the assassination? mrs. paine. an fbi agent was out, i have learned since, on november . i made no note of the day for myself. sat down and talked in a relaxed way and for sometime in my living room. he said that the fbi liked to make it plain to people who have been in this country sometime, immigrated from an iron curtain country if they were experiencing any blackmail pressure from their home country, that they were welcome, and invited to discuss it with the fbi if they so choose. mr. jenner. excuse me, marina was present? mrs. paine. marina was present. mr. jenner. did she overhear? mrs. paine. i am not certain--i tried to translate some of this conversation, i am not certain how good my translation was or how well i conveyed it, or even if i conveyed it to her. mr. jenner. but you do recall translating some of the conversation to her? mrs. paine. i do recall translating some of the conversation indeed. mr. jenner. were you at times asked to address marina to convey something that the fbi agent asked you to convey to her and then to translate in the reverse to him? mrs. paine. i don't recall anything as formal as that; no. the agent and i conversed some in english. he said, for instance, that, well he was interested in knowing if lee oswald lived here. i told him he did not, that he had a room in town; he asked if i knew where the room was and i said i did not. he asked if he was working and i said yes, and that he was working at the texas school book depository. i haven't gone over any of this yet, it must have been in conversation with you. mr. jenner. you testified to this yesterday afternoon? mrs. paine. i thought i did. it sounds familiar. mr. mccloy. i just wanted to fix for my own benefit the number of times you saw fbi agents prior to the assassination in the company of marina. mr. jenner. there was a succeeding date? mrs. paine. there was a succeeding date which again i have been told by the fbi was november , the first time. mr. jenner. do you recall it was a few days after the first man came? mrs. paine. i recall---- mr. jenner. do you recall it was in your home? mrs. paine. i recall it was in the early part of the week. mr. jenner. did the same gentleman call? mrs. paine. the same gentleman. he had someone else along. mr. jenner. that was mr. hosty, the gentleman whom you now have in mind? mrs. paine. yes; i now know his name as hosty. mr. mccloy. from that you knew that the fbi was still interested in the activity of oswald? mrs. paine. oh, indeed. mr. mccloy. that is what i want to bring out. i think that is all i have, the questions i have. are you going to take up later this estrangement as to how it developed? mr. jenner. yes; i shall do that this afternoon. representative ford has afforded me a list of subjects upon which to make inquiry and i will do so this afternoon. perhaps representative ford and senator cooper, you would have some questions of this lady before we adjourn for the luncheon period? senator cooper. are you going to continue this afternoon? mr. jenner. yes. senator cooper. i will postpone mine until this afternoon. i think mr. mccloy and congressman ford have to go. representative ford. mr. jenner, i will give you these questions and use those, if any, that are other than what you planned to use yourself. i am a little interested and i would like to hear you tell it, if i could, mrs. paine, how much did you know about the finances of lee and marina? mrs. paine. it seemed to me they lived on a very small budget. in march of the year, at either the first or second visit with her, she told me she lived on something under, around $ a month and this was more than they had been, because they had just finished paying a debt that they had incurred for their passage to this country and they were feeling rich on $ a month, and i could see she was a good planner in what she bought. i could see they seldom, if ever, bought clothes for themselves or even for june. in the fall then lee never volunteered or gave any money for the cost of her being at my house. he did on one occasion buy a few things at the grocery store for, at marina's request, which he paid for, and on another occasion i was aware that he had given her some money to buy shoes. did i mention this previously? representative ford. yes. mr. jenner. yesterday afternoon you did; yes. representative ford. but even after he gained employment at the texas school book depository and was being paid he never gave her any money for her to contribute to you? mrs. paine. no; he did not. representative ford. did marina ever express any concern about this? mrs. paine. periodically she expressed her embarrassment at having to receive always from me. i tried to convince her how useful and helpful it was to me to have her conversation, but i never felt i had convinced her of that. i would have to say i am guessing that she hoped lee would contribute. it would have been like her to think that he should. mr. jenner. you gather that from the fact that she did raise the subject occasionally? mrs. paine. just from the fact that she raised her embarrassment? yes. mr. jenner. yes. representative ford. i think that is all now. mr. jenner, you can use those to supplement or as you see fit during the interrogation this afternoon. thank you. mr. mccloy. i have no more questions. i would like to say this though, perhaps, mrs. paine, that you understand we are not trying to punish anybody here. we are not---- mrs. paine. i do understand. mr. mccloy. this is not a court of law. we are trying to get at the facts. anything that you can contribute before you complete your testimony which would help us to get the facts we would like to receive, whether it be in the form of hunches or anything that you have, and you must not, i suggest that you don't, assume that merely because we haven't examined you on a particular fact that if there is anything that you do have in mind that you advance it and volunteer it for the benefit of the further security of the country. mrs. paine. i have tried very hard to think of the things that i thought would be useful to you, especially as we had so little time in advance of testifying to help me recall in thinking about it. mr. jenner. may i say, mr. mccloy, that mrs. paine yesterday and the day before, when i had an opportunity to talk with her, she did volunteer several matters of which we had no notice whatsoever. for example, the telephone calls by lee harvey oswald to her, we had not known of that. and the existence of the curtain rods. mr. mccloy. anything that is in the background that you have---- mrs. paine. i did want to amend my testimony of yesterday in one small particular. i spoke, indeed, during the testimony i recalled this incident of lee having gotten into my car, started it, and did the driving from my home to the parking lot where we practiced, pretty much over my objection in a sense but i did not object strongly enough. i said this was about three blocks. that would appear that it was walking distance. it was longer than that. if you have someone out there in time, why i could go with the person to show just exactly what the distance was. representative ford. what was his reaction when you objected? first, was your objection just oral, was it strong, was it admonition, of what kind? mrs. paine. i felt that, and this is what you are getting at too and i think something we haven't yet discussed, is the matter of what kind of person this was or how i reacted to the kind of person he was. he seemed to me prickly, all sharp points and edgy, and i wished he could be more relaxed and more at ease. i didn't want to confront him with a statement of, "lee, i didn't want you to start this car and take it yourself", so i simply said, "my father is an insurance man and he certainly would not want me to be permitting you to drive in the street when you don't even have a learner's permit yet, and i will certainly drive it home." from the time i had first known him he had changed in his attitude toward me, i felt. i felt in the spring he expected to be disliked, that he carried a shell of proud disdain around him to protect himself from human contact, and this was falling away from him at my home. mr. jenner. in the fall you mean? mrs. paine. in the fall of the year, in october and november. he began to appear much more at ease, and as if he had some confidence in how he would be treated. it is a whole subject really. representative ford. can you give us a little more information on what you said to him and what he, or how he responded in this incident involving the car? mrs. paine. i would say he clearly wanted to do the driving and to drive in the street. i felt that this, my not permitting him to, was one of the things that was helping to get him to the office where he could get a learner's permit, and he was eager to be driving, and to learn to drive on the street. representative ford. did he just slough off, so to speak, your admonition that he shouldn't drive? mrs. paine. i didn't make it a requirement that he stop right there so he didn't have to stop. representative ford. you just suggested it might be better? mrs. paine. i just made it clear i was uncomfortable and on the way home i would drive. mr. mccloy. there is one thing we haven't had testimony about, i imagine, except implicitly. it is alleged that lee possessed a . caliber revolver. do you, in the light of hindsight, perhaps, do you have any feeling now that he was secreting that weapon on your premises? mrs. paine. i had no idea that it was there or ever was there. mr. mccloy. nothing now makes you feel that it was there other than the finding of the rifle? mrs. paine. that is right. representative ford. thank you very much, mrs. paine. senator cooper. the commission will recess until o'clock today. (whereupon, at : p.m., the commission recessed.) afternoon session testimony of ruth hyde paine resumed the president's commission reconvened at p.m. the chairman. we will start now. we will continue until senator cooper comes and then he will preside the rest of the afternoon. i will be busy with mr. rankin some of the time. mr. jenner. thank you, mr. chief justice. mrs. paine, this morning i was seeking to qualify and introduce in evidence commission exhibit , which, at the time i had it in my hand, consisted of one page. you called my attention to the fact that it was a letter dated october , , to your mother by you in your handwriting, but that you had only given me the first page or sheet, which consists front and reverse of two pages. then you tendered me the second page or sheet, and indicated some reluctance about the need for its use in this connection. during the noon recess you have afforded me the possession of the second page, and my recollection is you have voiced no objection to its introduction in evidence. mrs. paine. i have no objection to its introduction. it refers just to personal matters, but if you don't have it, you will have to wonder what it is. it is better not to wonder. mr. jenner. yes. and it does give the full context of the really pertinent statements that you made in the first two pages and to which you made allusion yesterday in your testimony. mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. i direct your attention to the second sheet, the first of which is numbered three and the reverse side numbered four. is the handwriting on both of those sheets yours? mrs. paine. yes it is. mr. jenner. and it is the third and fourth pages of the letter to which you referred yesterday and again this morning, commission exhibit no. ? mrs. paine. it is. mr. jenner. and that page is in the same condition now as when--that is pages three and four, as when--you dispatched the entire letter to your mother? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. mr. chief justice, i offer commission exhibit no. in evidence. it has been heretofore marked. the chairman. it may be admitted. (commission exhibit no. was marked and received in evidence.) mr. jenner. there have been marked as commission's exhibits in this series and to , a series of five colored photographs purporting to be photographs of one curtis la verne crafard, taken on the th day of november . mrs. paine would you be good enough to look at each of those, and after you have looked at them, i wish to ask you a question. mrs. paine. i have looked at them all. mr. jenner. calling on your recollection of the physiognomy and appearance of lee oswald, do you detect a resemblance between the man depicted in those photographs, the exhibit numbers of which i have given, and lee oswald? mrs. paine. yes; i do. mr. jenner. to the best of your present recollection, do you recall whether you have ever seen the person whose features are reflected on those photographs? mrs. paine. no; i have not seen him. the chairman. may i see those, please? mrs. paine. should i say that one picture in particular struck me as looking similar to lee? mr. jenner. yes. when the chief justice has concluded his examination i will have you pick out that one in particular. thank you, sir. when you select it will you give the exhibit number which appears on the reverse side? mrs. paine. exhibit no. . clearly the shoulders are broader than with lee, but it is a quality about the face that recalls oswald to my mind. mr. jenner. and the jacket? mrs. paine. and the attire. mr. jenner. the attire that is shown on the exhibit which is the first one you have before you, what is the number of that? mrs. paine. exhibit . mr. jenner. i asked you to describe lee oswald, his general attire. did he normally wear a zipper jacket of the character shown on that exhibit? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and referring to the other photographs, you say that man's attire is similar to that lee oswald normally effected and employed. mrs. paine. yes. it certainly is. mr. jenner. i offer commission exhibits nos. and through . the chairman. they may be admitted. (commission exhibits nos. and through were received in evidence.) mr. jenner. mrs. paine, the commissioners this morning, had especially directed questions to you evidencing their interest in fbi interviews. the chairman. senator, will you now continue to preside please, so i will be free to work with mr. rankin a little this afternoon. i will remain here though for a while. senator cooper. thank you. mr. jenner. i gather the first interview by any fbi agent to your knowledge was on the first day of november ? mrs. paine. yes; and i don't really think interview is a fully accurate word. mr. jenner. what word would you like to use? mrs. paine. i felt that the agent stopped to see whether the oswalds, either mrs. oswald or mr., were living there, and to make the acquaintance of me. he said that he had talked with my immediate neighbor, mrs. roberts, the previous time. mr. jenner. the pronoun you are using refers to the fbi agent. mrs. paine. he, the fbi agent. mr. jenner. yes. mrs. paine. said that he had inquired of my next door neighbor, mrs. roberts, whether the oswalds lived here, and she had said that she didn't know the last name but knew that the wife of the family was living there, and that there had just been a baby girl born, and that the husband came out some week ends. mr. jenner. is this what the agent told you? mrs. paine. no, the neighbor told me. mr. jenner. i see. all right. mrs. paine. and i judged he wanted to find out directly. mr. jenner. had you finished? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. have you subsequently learned the name of the gentleman who interviewed you or conversed with you? mrs. paine. i have subsequently learned his name, yes. it was james hosty. the chairman. what was the name? mrs. paine. james hosty, h-o-s-t-y. mr. jenner. i don't wish you to give that full interview again because you touched on it yesterday and again at greater length this morning. but i do wish to ask you with respect to that interview, did you give agent hosty the telephone numbers that you had received from lee oswald as to where he might be reached in dallas? mrs. paine. no; i didn't. he asked me if i knew where lee lived. i did think of these phone numbers, but---- mr. jenner. during the course of the---- mrs. paine. or later. mr. jenner. of the interview? mrs. paine. at least between that time and the time he came again, but i have been impressed with what i have now concluded was a mistaken impression i have which effected my behavior; namely, that the fbi was in possession of a great deal of information, or so i thought, and certainly would find it very easy to find out where lee oswald was living. i really didn't believe they didn't know or needed to find out from me. this is a feeling stemming from my understanding of the difficulties they faced working in a free society. i would behave quite differently now, but i have learned a lot from this particular experience. mr. jenner. now was there a subsequent interview? mrs. paine. there was an interview a few days later, yes, interview to the extent that he came to the door, walked in the door. we didn't as much as sit down. but he asked again about an address. i had none. i did say that i expected---- mr. jenner. an address as to where lee resided? mrs. paine. in town where he resided. i did say that i expected that when marina moved into an apartment with lee again, as we all thought would occur, that i would be in contact with her, and that i would be perfectly willing to give him information as to that address when i had such, but that my contact was with her and therefore through that way i would have the address. mr. jenner. were you again interviewed by telephone or otherwise by any fbi agent prior to november , . mrs. paine. i have mentioned two times. mr. jenner. yes. mrs. paine. and that was all. mr. jenner. that was all. so up to the time of the assassination, the only interviews with the fbi to your knowledge were on the first? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. you will recall your testimony yesterday, mrs. paine, of the incident in which a telephone call was made by you at the request of marina using the telephone number that has been left with you by lee oswald, and your inability to locate him, in fact the person who answered the telephone stated that there was no lee oswald living there. do you recall your testimony on that score? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. did you report that to the fbi? mrs. paine. no; i did not. mr. jenner. you also recall your testimony with respect to the draft of the proposed letter which i think is before you, and that is commission exhibit number? mrs. paine. . mr. jenner. did you call the fbi and advise them of that incident? mrs. paine. no; i did not. mr. jenner. and without seeking to have you repeat your testimony, were your reasons for not doing so the same as the one that you gave when i asked you whether you had given agent hosty the telephone number? mrs. paine. no; not identical. certainly i didn't think that they had any information of such a letter, whereas i did think they knew where he lived or could easily find out, and of course they could also come to the house and see him at my house as he came on weekends. mr. jenner. you did say to the fbi? mrs. paine. i did. mr. jenner. that he would be at your home on weekends. mrs. paine. and i judged by the fact they didn't come that this was not someone they were terribly worried about talking to immediately. both this letter, and the telephone conversation really, the one that followed it, where marina reported to me that he was using a different name, were something new and different in the situation that made me feel this was a man i hadn't accurately perceived before. i have said my impression in reading the letter was--i have said something similar to this--that of a small boy wanting to get in good with the boys, trying to use words that he thought would please. i didn't know to whom he addressed himself, but it struck me as something out of pravda in his terminology. and i knew, as i have testified, that several of the statements in it were flatly false, and i wondered about the rest, and then when i heard that he was using a different name, that again was indication of a great disregard for truth on the part of lee oswald. mr. jenner. now what time of day did the interview on november take place? mrs. paine. afternoon. mr. jenner. late? mrs. paine. middle of the afternoon. my memory is there were no children around which means it was nap time. mr. jenner. it couldn't have been along about o'clock in the afternoon? mrs. paine. it was a friday, wasn't it? mr. jenner. yes, it was. mrs. paine. and he probably came out that friday. mr. jenner. you were just telling the agent, you had told the agent, had you not, that he came on weekends. mrs. paine. i did. mr. jenner. and he arrived on fridays? mrs. paine. i did. mr. jenner. and this was a friday? mrs. paine. it was, and you will recall yesterday---- mr. jenner. and you did tell the agent that? mrs. paine. yes. it had to have been that session. i know i certainly told him, and it had to have been that time because the second meeting was very brief and had only to do with the address. mr. jenner. and that was not on a friday? mrs. paine. no; it was not. mr. jenner. was anything said about the agent remaining because lee oswald would be along, he was expected? mrs. paine. no. may i interject here to recall to your mind that as i looked through my calendar trying to find if there was any time, any weekend other than the weekend of october , that lee arrived on a saturday instead of a friday, it had to be that weekend by deduction. and i don't recall whether he arrived that friday evening. i do recall when he arrived we told him about this meeting and i gave him the piece of paper on which i had written mr. hosty's name and the normal telephone number for the fbi in dallas. mr. jenner. but you recall no conversation. may i suggest this to you as possibly refreshing your recollection. that on that friday afternoon, which i may say to you now, mrs. paine, is reported by agent hosty as having taken place on november , and he has made his report accordingly, was there any discussion of a suggestion that lee oswald would be out that weekend, that is either that you told him he would not be or that he would be, that you would expect him? mrs. paine. my recollection is that i said he came out here on weekends and he could be seen then. mr. jenner. go ahead. mrs. paine. and i have no recollection of ever thinking he was not going to come that weekend. mr. jenner. you have also testified that you were also advised in advance when he was coming? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. he asked permission. so if he were coming on the st of november, that very day, you would have been advised in advance that he was coming, would you not, according to your testimony. mrs. paine. yes; i would think so. mr. jenner. but you don't recall saying anything to agent hosty that he was coming that evening, at least that you expected him to be there. mrs. paine. i may have. i don't specifically recall. mr. jenner. but you do have a recollection that you told him at least generally that lee oswald came to your home on weekends? mrs. paine. i feel certain of that. mr. jenner. in any event, agent hosty did not remain? mrs. paine. he did not remain. i don't think it was very close to when he left. it was earlier in the afternoon. mr. jenner. you are inclined to think the interview took place earlier in the afternoon, that is prior to o'clock? mrs. paine. yes; more likely to or : . mr. jenner. during the slumber hours of your children? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. now you are certain in your own mind that you had no interview or no fbi agent interviewed you prior to november ? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. and if an fbi agent did interview you, you were not aware that you were being interviewed? mrs. paine. that is absolutely correct. mr. jenner. do you have a recollection that on october , that would be days before the friday session that you have testified about, that some sales person or purporting to be a sales person or a drummer or somebody came to your door and made some inquiries of you about the oswalds? mrs. paine. october is a tuesday. i don't recall any such encounter. written on my calendar is "dal" for dallas "junie" meaning we went to a clinic in dallas in the morning. it doesn't say about the rest of the day. mr. jenner. now when you reported to lee oswald the name of the agent and the telephone number, you put that on a slip of paper. mrs. paine. i did. mr. jenner. and handed the slip of paper to him? mrs. paine. yes; i did. mr. jenner. was there any conversation between you then as to fbi agents having at any time prior thereto interviewed lee oswald. mrs. paine. there may have been. i am certainly clear that i was told probably by marina that he had been interviewed, or by both of them, that he had been interviewed in fort worth when they first returned from the soviet union. this i knew before the time of the assassination. mr. jenner. did marina say whether she had been interviewed in fort worth? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. this was only that lee oswald had been interviewed at fort worth? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. but you recall no conversation in which either lee or marina said or intimated to you that they had, either of them had been interviewed either in new orleans or in dallas. mrs. paine. nothing was mentioned of having been interviewed in new orleans or dallas. mr. jenner. you made some reference yesterday, and i want to keep it in context, to the license number of the fbi agent. mrs. paine. not in testimony. did i? mr. jenner. i thought you had. mrs. paine. perhaps. mr. jenner. it would be well if we went into that. would you please recite what that incident was? mrs. paine. i am confused by the question. mr. jenner. do you recall the matter of the taking of the agent's license number from his automobile? mrs. paine. i was told by agent hosty well after the assassination that they had found in oswald's room in dallas a slip of paper which included not only hosty's name and the telephone number of the fbi in dallas, but also the license plate number with one letter incorrect, one number incorrect, of the car that hosty had driven out. this was the first i had heard anything about their having been a license plate. mr. jenner. you did not take---- mrs. paine. number taken down. mr. jenner. you did not take the number down and place it on that piece of paper? mrs. paine. i did not. mr. jenner. or give it to lee harvey oswald or to marina? mrs. paine. i did not. i was never at any time interested in the license plate number. i wondered why anyone else would have been. mr. jenner. in any event, the first you heard of the license number was after the assassination? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. under the circumstances you have now related? mrs. paine. i might describe the second meeting with mr. hosty a little more in detail. mr. jenner. that is november ? mrs. paine. that is the only way i can guess as to how this license plate number was in oswald's room. mr. jenner. all right. mrs. paine. hosty and i, and a second agent was with him, i don't know the name, stood at the door of my home and talked briefly, as i have already described, about the address of oswald in dallas. marina was in her room feeding the baby, or busy some way. she came in just as hosty and i were closing the conversation, and i must say we were both surprised at her entering. he then took his leave immediately, and as he has told me later, drove to the end of my street which curves and then drove back down fifth street. mr. jenner. now you are reporting something agent hosty has told you? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. were you aware of the fact that he drove to the end of the street? mrs. paine. not at that time, no. i was aware that he had parked his car out in front of my house. my best judgment is that the license plate was not visible, however, while it was parked; not visible from my house. mr. jenner. did you see the car? mrs. paine. i saw the car. mr. jenner. parked? mrs. paine. yes. i noticed it particularly. because the first time he had come on the st of november, he had parked down the street, and he made reference to the fact that they don't like to draw attention for the neighborhood to any interviews that they make, and in fact my neighbor also commented when she had talked with him a few days previously that his car was parked down the street and wasn't in front of my house. so i noticed the change that he had parked directly in front. but to the best of my recollection, in back of the oldsmobile of my husband's. mr. jenner. did you attempt to look to see what his license number was? mrs. paine. what? mr. jenner. did you attempt to look at his automobile to see what the license number was? mrs. paine. no; nor could i have seen it from my house without my glasses on. i am nearsighted, and i was not wearing them. mr. jenner. but the license plate would have been visible to anybody walking down the street or who desired? mrs. paine. walking down the street, yes. mr. jenner. or looking out your garage. mrs. paine. i don't think so, because to the best of my recollection, an oldsmobile that my husband bought was also in front of the house, so that the cars would have been close at the bumpers. mr. jenner. so the license plates would have been screened by the oldsmobile? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. have you given us all you have in mind with respect to the incidents? mrs. paine. there is one other thing which is a little different, and i had forgotten it but it is recalled by our conversation. i have already said that i said to agent hosty that if in the future marina and lee are living together, and i know, or i have correspondence with them i would give him his address if he wished it. then it was the next day or that evening or sometime shortly thereafter marina said to me while we were doing dishes that she felt their address was their business. now my understanding is she doesn't understand english well. the word in russian for address is "adres," and she made it plain that this was a matter of privacy for them. this surprised me. she had never spoken in this way to me before, and i didn't see that it made any difference. mr. jenner. did this arise out of, or in connection with, or was it stimulated, by any discussion between the two of you of the visit of agent hosty? mrs. paine. so far as i could see, it arose separately. mr. jenner. so far as you can recall? mrs. paine. as far as i can recall. mr. jenner. did you make any effort to obtain lee oswald's address so that you could give it to the fbi? mrs. paine. no. as i have testified, i really thought they had it. mr. jenner. when you made the telephone call to lee oswald and learned he apparently was living under an alias, and certainly in that weekend immediately preceding the assassination when the argument occurred between marina and lee oswald on which he upbraided her for having made the call, you still weren't activated to call the fbi and tell them that he was living under an assumed name, is that true? mrs. paine. that is true. i did expect to give this copy which i had made of his "dear sirs," letter which you have marked commission exhibit to the fbi agent at the next meeting. mr. jenner. at the time he called if he did call? mrs. paine. i thought he would. mr. jenner. during the interview on november , you have testified that marina was present some of the time. mrs. paine. she was present virtually all of that time. mr. jenner. all of the time? mrs. paine. and virtually none of the next time. mr. jenner. virtually none. mrs. paine. just came in at the end, on the th. mr. jenner. was she out in the yard? did you get that impression any time during that second interview? mrs. paine. no; she had to have been in her room the entire time. mr. jenner. are you firm, reasonably firm that marina, even if she desired to learn of the license number on agent hosty's car, that she could not have seen or detected it while remaining in the house? mrs. paine. she might possibly--oh, i wouldn't say that. it is conceivable, depending on where it was parked, it is conceivable that she could have seen it from the bedroom window. mr. jenner. you are holding up exhibit number? mrs. paine. . mr. jenner. and you are pointing to what on that exhibit? mrs. paine. the window of the bedroom which she occupied, which is the southeast bedroom of my house, looks directly out to where i thought the car was parked. from that position, if i am correct about where the car was parked, she couldn't have seen the license plate, but she could have seen it if as agent hosty described to me later she saw it while the car was moving along the street. mr. jenner. when he pulled away? mrs. paine. when he pulled away and then he came back and went the other way. mr. jenner. so it is possible that she may have seen the license? mrs. paine. it is possible. mr. jenner. this date that you are now talking about when he parked the car in front of your house, that was november ? mrs. paine. yes, it was. mr. jenner. whereas on november , he parked the car down the street. mrs. paine. that is right. i might add a little more detail here if you want it. marina and i talked about whether to tell lee that the fbi had been out a second time, and the th was a tuesday. we didn't see lee until the th. she said to me that he had been upset by the fbi's coming out and inquiring about him, and he felt it was interference with his family. and i said there is no reason for him to be upset, or i think conveyed that idea. but the question of whether to tell him was settled by marina who told him on friday evening, the th, and then lee inquired of me about that meeting, and he said--i don't think i have yet said for the record--he said to me then he felt the fbi was inhibiting his activities. this is what he said. has this been said? mr. jenner. not yet. mrs. paine. all right, i have said it. i said to him "don't be worried about it. you have your rights to your views, whether they are popular or not." but i could see that he didn't take that view but rather was seriously bothered by their having come out and inquired about him. at this time or another, i don't recall certainly, i asked whether he was worried about losing his job, and he was. mr. jenner. did he say so, mrs. paine? mrs. paine. i recall particularly a telephone conversation with him. on one of those in which he called out to talk to marina, i judge, and perhaps she was busy still changing a baby and i talked. i don't recall the exact circumstances but i do recall it, and i said to him if his views, not any references now to the fbi or their interest in him, but if his political views were interfering with his ability to hold a job, that this might be a matter of interest to the american civil liberties union, that he should in our country have a right to unpopular views or any other kind. this i believe was after he had been to an american civil liberties union meeting with my husband, that meeting having been october . mr. jenner. what was his response? mrs. paine. he was pleased, i felt. he felt in a sense reassured. and indeed i think his response was to join, because it was later reported in the press that he had, which makes me think that this telephone conversation was quite close to the time of the assassination. mr. jenner. mrs. paine---- mrs. paine. i am putting in a lot of guesswork. mr. jenner. am i interrupting you? mrs. paine. no. it is just that i wonder if you want me to dredge this deeply into things i cannot be absolutely certain about. mr. jenner. we would like your best recollection. we do hesitate about speculation. mrs. paine. indeed. mr. jenner. when we are asking about factual matters. we do ask for your speculation occasionally, but to try to make it quite deliberate when we are asking for that rather than for facts. have you now stated all that comes to mind with respect to the advice to lee oswald of the visit of fbi agents or any discussion with mr. oswald at any time while he visited your home during this period in prior to november with respect to fbi agent visits? have you now exhausted your recollection on the subject? mrs. paine. i think one other thing. agent hosty asked me, and i am not certain which time, but more likely the second, since so far as i can recall marina wasn't present, if i thought this was a mental problem, his words referring to lee oswald, and i said i didn't understand the mental processes of anyone who could espouse the marxist philosophy, but that this was far different from saying he was mentally unstable or unable to conduct himself in normal society. i did tell lee that this question had been asked. he gave no reply, but more a scoffing laugh, hardly voiced. mr. jenner. have you now exhausted your recollection? mrs. paine. i have clearly exhausted it. senator cooper. who asked the question? mrs. paine. hosty asked the question "is this a mental problem?" senator cooper. did you ever hear oswald express any anger toward either the agents or the fbi, as an agency? mrs. paine. he expressed distinct irritation that he was being bothered. that is how he looked upon it. senator cooper. you said that you thought he was concerned about its effect upon his job, but did he express any emotion other than that? mrs. paine. and he was being inhibited in what he wanted to do. senator cooper. any irritation or anger because they had interviewed? mrs. paine. in tone of voice, yes. senator cooper. what would it be like? mrs. paine. well, irritated. he said, "they are trying to inhibit my activities." senator cooper. did he swear at all? mrs. paine. no. senator cooper. he used no language. mrs. paine. no; he didn't. senator cooper. did he raise the tone of his voice? mrs. paine. no. senator cooper. did he show---- mrs. paine. nothing more than an edge to his voice i would say. senator cooper. did he direct it against any individual fbi agent. mrs. paine. no; he didn't. i have one other recollection that possibly should be put in regarding the conversation with agent hosty the first time when marina was present. we discussed many things, just as you would having coffee in the afternoon with a visitor, and---- mr. jenner. is this a discussion between you and marina with the agent present or not present. mrs. paine. he was present. mr. jenner. all right. mrs. paine. discussion between the three of us. mr. jenner. thank you. mrs. paine. and i can't recall certainly who brought it up, but i think marina asked of hosty what did he think of castro, and he said, "well, he reads what is printed and from the view given in the american newspapers of castro's activities and intentions, he certainly didn't like those intentions or actions." and marina expressed an opinion subsequently, but contrary, that perhaps he was not given much chance by the american press, or that the press was not entirely fair to him. this i translated. mr. jenner. is that the extent of it? now have you exhausted your recollection? mrs. paine. i hope so. i have exhausted myself. mr. jenner. mr. chairman, do you have another question? senator cooper. not on this subject. mr. jenner. i would like to return to your furnishing of the name and the telephone number of agent hosty. in commission exhibit no. , which is in evidence, which was lee oswald's diary--by the way, may i hand the exhibit to the witness, mr. chairman? senator cooper. yes. mr. jenner. this is an address book. in any event it is in evidence as exhibit no. . have you ever seen that booklet before? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. examine the outside of the booklet. have you seen this? mrs. paine. i have never seen this. mr. jenner. you have never seen that in lee oswald's possession? mrs. paine. i have never seen it at all. mr. jenner. there is an entry as follows. would you help me mr. redlich. would you read it please? mr. redlich. "november , fbi agent james p. hosty." mrs. paine. junior? mr. redlich. just above the word "hosty" appears in parentheses "ri - ," and underneath "james p. hosty" appears "mu ." underneath that is " commerce street dallas." i would just like to correct upon the record that the phone number originally read is "ri- ." mrs. paine. that is correct. mr. jenner. what is that phone number? mrs. paine. that phone number i recognize from my own use of it is to the fbi in dallas, my use since the assassination. mr. jenner. and the series of numbers rather than phone numbers, series of numbers "mu ." mrs. paine. is not known to me. mr. jenner. what is the system of license plate numbering and lettering employed in texas? mrs. paine. i am not acquainted with any particular system. they use both letters and numbers. mr. jenner. i call your attention in connection with this entry that it is dated november , , and there does appear in it the license number. mrs. paine. oh, yes. mr. jenner. your recollection is firm that you didn't furnish it? mrs. paine. may i point out also that he must have put this down after november st, or at least that evening. he could not have written it down with---- mr. jenner. it had to be after the fact as you furnished him the name. mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. and the agent's address. mrs. paine. i would think he could as well have added--you don't want my thinking--this number. mr. jenner. the reason i call that to your attention, mrs. paine, it still does not stimulate your recollection. mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. any differently than before. you did not furnish the license number. mrs. paine. i certainly did not. to the best of my recollection i did not put down the address either. mr. jenner. now during the course of that interview of november th, did you not say to agent hosty that lee had visited at your home november and ? mrs. paine. it is entirely possible, likely. mr. jenner. and in this connection i am at liberty to report to you that agent hosty's report is that you did advise him that oswald had visited at your home on november and november . does that serve to refresh your recollection that you did so advise him? mrs. paine. i don't recall that. mr. jenner. now did you express an opinion to agent hosty that oswald was "an illogical person?" mrs. paine. yes, i did, in answer to his question was this a mental problem, as i have just described to you. mr. jenner. yes; that is all right. and did you also say to agent hosty that oswald himself had "admitted being a trotskyite communist." mrs. paine. oh, i doubt seriously i said trotskyite communist. i would think leninist communist, but i am not certain. mr. jenner. do you remember making a remark of similar import? mrs. paine. reference to trotsky surprises me. i have come since the assassination to wonder if he had trotskyite views. i have become interested in what such views are since the assassination. mr. jenner. to the best of your recollection you don't recall making that comment? mrs. paine. i wouldn't think that i had the knowledge by which to make such a statement even. mr. jenner. now after this rationalization you have made, mrs. paine, it is your recollection that you did not make such a comment? mrs. paine. i can't recall. what was the second item that i told hosty he had been out on the second and third? i am just trying to clarify here. mr. jenner. you had told him that lee oswald had been at your home november and , that you told him that lee oswald was an illogical person? mrs. paine. that is it. mr. jenner. and third, that you told him that oswald had admitted being a trotskyite communist. mrs. paine. i may have said that. i don't recall. mr. jenner. you may have said the latter. mrs. paine. i don't recall, that is right. mr. jenner. it is possible that you did say it? mrs. paine. it is possible. i am surprised, however, by the word at that point. mr. jenner. now do you recall a telephone interview or call by agent hosty on the th of january ? perhaps i had better put it this way to you. do you recall subsequent telephone calls after the assassination that you received from agent hosty, that you did receive such telephone calls? mrs. paine. i did, and visits also, at the house. mr. jenner. do you recall he called you on the th of january and that he inquired whether you had given lee oswald the license number of his automobile when he had been at your home? you stated that you had not. mrs. paine. that is right. i would have thought that was a face to face interview but i don't recall. mr. jenner. but you also told agent hosty on that occasion, "however, this license number could have easily been observed by marina oswald since her bedroom is located only a short distance from the street where this car would have been parked." mrs. paine. i doubt i said "easily." mr. jenner. but you could have said that the license number could have been observed by marina from her bedroom? mrs. paine. my recollection of this, that it was not a telephone interview. mr. jenner. telephone or otherwise, there was an interview of you at which you made that statement, that marina could have seen the license? mrs. paine. that marina could have? mr. jenner. you do recall the incident. you don't recall whether it was at your home or whether it was by telephone? mrs. paine. i certainly recall talking with agent hosty and on at least one occasion about how that license number got in oswald's possession. mr. jenner. do you recall a telephone interview by an fbi agent lee, ivan d. lee on the th of december ? mrs. paine. the name is not familiar to me. a great many fbi agents---- mr. jenner. do you recall an incident in which you reported to an fbi agent that you had just talked with a reporter from the houston post? mrs. paine. right. mr. jenner. you recall that? mrs. paine. i do. mr. jenner. now during the course of that interview, you made reference to a newspaper reporter, did you not? mrs. paine. i did. his name is lonny hudkins. mr. jenner. did you say that the reporter whom you have now identified had advised you that lee harvey oswald's mother had been working for a party in forth worth during september and october as a practical nurse, and according to the reporter, mrs. oswald, mother of lee harvey oswald, advised this party during her employment that her son was doing important anti-subversive work? mrs. paine. that is correct. mr. jenner. would you please relate that incident so we will have the facts insofar as you participated in them stated of record? mrs. paine. i will. i would not have recalled the date, but i knew it to be toward the end of . i was called on the telephone by lonny hudkins, whom i had never met, announced himself as from the houston post, said there was a matter of some importance that he wanted to talk with me about, could he come out to the house? and he then indicated the nature of what he wanted to talk about to the extent very accurately reported in what you have just read. i called the fbi really to see if they could advise me in dealing with this man. it struck me as a very unresponsible thing to print, and i wanted to be able to convince hudkins of that fact. i was hopeful that they might be willing to make a flat denial to him, or in some way prevent the confusion that would have been caused by his printing this. now shall i go on to tell about the encounter which followed with mr. hudkins, and something of that content? mr. jenner. i am a little at a loss. why don't you start because i can't anticipate. mrs. paine. whether it is important? mr. jenner. you haven't related this to me. are these statements you made to the fbi that you are about to relate? mrs. paine. if they asked. i don't recall specifically. i certainly recall that the content of the telephone conversation reported there is accurate and is in sum the conversation that then followed with lonny hudkins too, except that it doesn't say what i said in the situation. mr. jenner. did you report to the fbi that mr. hudkins had said to you that the primary purpose of seeing you was an effort to get some confirmation if possible of the possibility oswald was actually working on behalf of the united states government prior to the assassination? mrs. paine. i was aware that was his purpose. mr. jenner. that you knew of no such situation, and ventured the opinion to the reporter that the story was wholly unlikely, that you could not imagine anyone having that much confidence in oswald? mrs. paine. that is accurate. i went on to say that mrs. oswald, senior, mrs. marguerite oswald, could well have said to this matron a full year back and more that her son was doing important anti-subversive work for the government. this was he was talking about, but that this was her opinion or what she may have wished to have true. and i did not consider it terribly creditable, and said to him "you don't think you have a story here, do you?" mr. jenner. you also recall---- mrs. paine. may i put in another point here? mr. jenner. in connection with this subject matter? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. all right. mrs. paine. i called and the man to whom i talked, i don't know if it was lee, or i think it was someone else who answered first, i am not certain at all. mr. jenner. odum? mrs. paine. odum? it certainly was not odum. i know him. but someone answered the phone and i told this to him, and perhaps it was lee. he said to me in response to my inquiring "what shall i do, here is this man coming," he said "well you don't know anything of this nature do you?" i said, "no". "then anything you might have to say is sheer conjecture on the subject?" "yes." "then you should certainly make that plain in talking with him." mr. jenner. did you do so? mrs. paine. yes; i certainly did. and i felt as though i really shouldn't have bothered them. this was not of interest to them. but then i was called back later by the fbi on the same subject. mr. jenner. and you reported that conversation, the subsequent call back by the fbi? mrs. paine. no. you have content of the first conversation i think there, isn't that so, or it might have been? mr. jenner. there are a series, mrs. paine, that run in this order. the first was on december , . the conversation occurred between you and an agent lee, and it was a telephone interview? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. i have asked you about that, and i have read from the report and you have affirmed that you so reported to the agent. and on the next day, december , , you had a telephone conversation, whether you called or whether the agent called, with kenneth c. howe. mrs. paine. what is his name? mr. jenner. kenneth c. howe, on this same subject. i have questioned you about that, and i have read from the report, and you have affirmed as to that. then on january , , this apparently was an interview at your home by agent odum? do you recall that? mrs. paine. agent odum has been out a great deal. mr. jenner. in which you say, did you not, that this reporter hudkins of the houston post newspaper in his contact with you on the previous saturday, december had stated that the fbi was foolish to deny that agent joseph hosty, being a reference to the fbi agent we have been talking about today, had tried to develop lee harvey oswald as an informant. you stated you had made no comment one way or the other to hudkins regarding this remark, and furthermore that you knew that---- mrs. paine. would you please repeat that, that i stated? mr. jenner. i will read it all to you then. you advised that lonny hudkins, the reporter of the houston post in his contact that he had with you on the previous saturday, december , , had stated to you that the fbi was foolish to deny that agent hosty had tried to develop lee harvey oswald as an informant. did you make that statement? mrs. paine. not in just those terms. mr. jenner. did you make the further statement that you made no comment one way or the other to hudkins regarding this remark of his to you? in order to get this in the proper posture, mrs. paine---- senator cooper. do you understand the question? mrs. paine. i understand what is said, but it doesn't check strictly with my recollection, that is the confusion. mr. jenner. what the agent is reporting is your report of what lonny hudkins had said to you, and your report to the agent of your response to what lonny hudkins had said to you. do we have it now in the proper posture? mrs. paine. this is by no means an accurate description of the conversation or my response. mr. jenner. you don't have to accept this report, of course, mrs. paine. tell us what occurred in that interview? mrs. paine. all right. mr. jenner. what you said and what agent odum said to you. mrs. paine. oh, i don't recall that so well. i was going to tell you what i said to hudkins. i do recall this, and it may be the foundation for what appears in your report there. i made no comment on mr. hudkins saying that there was a joe hosty, and that this agent had been in contact with oswald. i observed that hudkins had inaccurate information. mr. jenner. didn't you tell the agent what this reporter had said to you that was inaccurate, to wit, that the reporter had stated to you that the fbi was foolish to deny that agent hosty had tried to develop lee harvey oswald as an informant? mrs. paine. what is totally inaccurate is the following, that implies that i made no comment to hudkins regarding such a remark. mr. jenner. no please, that has not been suggested. i am trying to take this chronologically. did you first report to the agent that hudkins had said to you that the fbi was foolish to deny that agent joseph hosty had tried to develop lee harvey oswald as an informant. mrs. paine. certainly what hudkins said was of this nature. mr. jenner. and you so reported to the agent? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. then did you make the further remark, which is what i think you are trying to say, that you made no comment one way or the other to hudkins when he made that remark, his remark to you? mrs. paine. i made a great deal of comment and i will say what those comments were. mr. jenner. you did to the reporter. mrs. paine. to the reporter, yes. mr. jenner. please say what you said, and did you report this to the fbi, mr. odum? mrs. paine. inadequately clearly, judging from the---- mr. jenner. why don't you do it this way? mrs. paine. yes i reported it. mr. jenner. let us have first what you said to the fbi agent on the subject? mrs. paine. i can't recall what i said to the fbi agent. it is much easier for me to recall what i said to hudkins. but i do recall clearly that i said to the fbi agent "i made no correction of his inaccuracies about hosty's name." this is where i made no comment. mr. jenner. i am at a loss now. mrs. paine. joe is not his name. mr. jenner. i see. his name is james? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. did you indicate to the agent that you had raised an issue with the reporter? mrs. paine. he also spelled it with an "i", hudkins. mr. jenner. with respect to the other phase, that is to what the reporter had said to you. mrs. paine. i would guess that i reported to mr. odum other things about---- mr. jenner. present recollections mrs. paine. mrs. paine. i don't recall the particular conversation with mr. odum at all. i talked with him a great deal. mr. jenner. did you deny this state to mr. hudkins, the reporter? mrs. paine. to mr. hudkins? mr. jenner. did you say to him that you did not agree with his statement? mrs. paine. to mr. hudkins i said many things, which i hoped would convince him that he had no story, that his information was very shaky, that oswald was not in my view a person that would have been hired by the fbi or by russia. i said to him "you are the other side of the coin from a mr. guy richards of the new york journal-american who is certain that oswald was a paid spy for the soviet union, and just as inaccurate," and coming to, in my opinion, and of course i made it clear this was my opinion, to conclusions just as wrong. mr. jenner. that is, it was your opinion that lee oswald was neither a russian agent nor an agent of any agency of the united states? mrs. paine. that is right. i said indeed to mr. hudkins, i had said to mr. richards that if the so-called great soviet conspiracy has to rest for its help upon such inadequate people as lee oswald, there is no hope of their achieving their aims. i said i simply cannot believe that the fbi would find it necessary to employ such a shaky and inadequate person. mr. jenner. and is that still your view? mrs. paine. indeed it is. mr. jenner. did you also say to mr. odum on that occasion that you knew that agent hosty had not interviewed lee harvey oswald? mrs. paine. probably. senator cooper. did you read the statements after they had been written? mrs. paine. what statements? senator cooper. the statements of the fbi. mrs. paine. oh, no; i have never. senator cooper. you have never seen them? mrs. paine. never seen anything of it. i knew they must write something, but i have never seen any of these statements. senator cooper. you never asked them to show you the statements? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. did you ever make a statement to anybody that you can recall that lee harvey oswald in your opinion was doing underground work? mrs. paine. that has never been my opinion. i would be absolutely certain that he never---- mr. jenner. please, did you say it? mrs. paine. and i would be absolutely certain that i never said such a thing. mr. jenner. to anybody, including when i say anybody, mrs. dorothy gravitis? mrs. paine. absolutely certain. never said to anyone that i thought lee was doing undercover work. senator cooper. what is that name? mr. jenner. gravitis, g-r-a-v-i-t-i-s. senator cooper. do you know this person? mrs. paine. she is my russian tutor in dallas. senator cooper. what? mrs. paine. russian tutor and the mother-in-law of the translator that was at the police station. mr. jenner. to conclude this series---- mrs. paine. would you clarify for me, someone is of the opinion that i thought that oswald was an undercover agent for whom? mr. jenner. that you said so. mrs. paine. for whom? mr. jenner. for the russian government. mrs. paine. oh. i have certainly never said anything of the sort. mr. jenner. did you ever say to anybody including mrs. gravitis that you thought lee harvey oswald was a communist? mrs. paine. well, it is possible i said that. i thought he considered himself a communist by ideology, certainly a marxist. he himself always corrected anyone who called him a communist and said he was a marxist. mr. jenner. when you use the term communist do you think of a person as a member of the communist party or a native of russia? mrs. paine. i seldom use the term at all, but i would confine it to people who were members or considered themselves in support of communist ideology. mr. jenner. a person in your mind may be a communist, and yet not a member of the communist party, even in russia? mrs. paine. i might use the word in that loose way. mr. jenner. the last of these interviews was on, may i suggest, and if not would you correct me, january , , by agent wiehl, and agent hosty. it appears, and would you please correct me if i am wrong, to have been an interview in your home at the very tail end of january ? mrs. paine. i have no specific recollection. mr. jenner. do you recall an interview in which you reported to the fbi, these two agents, that agent hosty--no, that you gave lee harvey oswald the name of agent james p. hosty together with the dallas fbi telephone number which you had obtained on november , , that you did not give him the license number of the automobile driven by agent hosty, however, and that, as i have asked you before, the license number could have been observed by marina oswald on november ? mrs. paine. that is my recollection of the occurrence. mr. jenner. and it could have been observed on november th? mrs. paine. that is right. senator cooper. did you yourself see the license plate? mrs. paine. no. senator cooper. you don't know the numbers or letters that were on the license plate? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. mrs. paine, you testified yesterday and you testified again today, this morning, that you had no recollection of lee oswald having gone into the garage of your home on thursday, november . do you recall that testimony? mrs. paine. well, that i did not see him there or see him go through the door to the garage. i was clear in my own mind that it was he who had left the light on, and i tried to describe that. mr. jenner. it may have been a possibility and you were inferring from that that he was in the garage. mrs. paine. i definitely infer that. mr. jenner. were you interviewed by the fbi agents hosty and abernathy on the d of november ? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and in the course of that interview, do you recall having stated to these agents that on the evening of november , lee oswald went out to the garage of your home, where he had many of his personal effects stored, and spent considerable time, apparently rearranging and handling his personal effects. mrs. paine. i don't recall saying exactly that. mr. jenner. could you have said that to the agents. mrs. paine. i could have said as far as spending considerable time. mr. jenner. now that your recollection is possibly further refreshed, please tell us what you did say to the agents as you now recall? mrs. paine. you have refreshed nothing. you have got all there was of my recollection in previous testimony. mr. jenner. based on the fundamentals, the specifics which you have given us yesterday and today, you did report to the fbi on the d of november in the interview to which i have called your attention that on the evening of the st oswald went out to the garage where he had many of his personal effects stored, and spent considerable time apparently rearranging and handling his personal effects. mrs. paine. i don't recall ever saying "apparently rearranging and handling." mr. jenner. other than the word "apparently" that is a reasonable summary of what you did say to the fbi agents, is it? mrs. paine. i don't recall. i think my best recollection is as i have given it to you in the testimony, was it this morning, that i certainly was of the opinion that he had been out there. i had been busy for some time with my children, and i could easily, and of course that was the day after, and this several months after, have been of the opinion, been informed as to how long he had been out there, but my recollection now doesn't give me any length of time. mr. jenner. you have heretofore given us yesterday and today your very best recollection after full reflection on all the course of events. mrs. paine. i certainly have. mr. jenner. i notice that during the course of the interview, and perhaps you will recall, that you did call attention of the fbi, these two agents, to the mexico city letter about which you have testified, is that correct? mrs. paine. yes; i gave it to them. mr. jenner. mr. chairman, that is all i intend to cover with respect to the fbi. do you have any questions? we will go on to another subject. senator cooper. this would be going back into the subject on which you have already testified, but with reference to this last statement, this letter, where it is reported, you said, lee oswald did go into the garage and spend some time, did you make a statement to the fbi after the agents had been in the garage, or the police had been in the garage, and had found the blanket with nothing in it. mrs. paine. yes, certainly, this was the next day that hosty was out with abernathy. senator cooper. and you did remember of course that you found the light on? mrs. paine. yes. senator cooper. you did not expect it to be on in the garage? do you think it is correct then that at the time you made this statement, recognizing the importance of the garage, that you did say at that time that he had been in the garage on the night before the president was assassinated? mrs. paine. yes. i think i said that. senator cooper. you think you made that statement? mrs. paine. i think i made that statement. this was certainly my impression. mr. jenner. you have already related the arrival of your husband, michael paine, at your home in mid-afternoon of the day of the assassination? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. now would you please tell me exactly to the best of your recollection the words of your husband as he walked in the door? mrs. paine. i don't recall his saying anything. mr. jenner. now his words if any with respect to why he had come. mrs. paine. i asked him before he volunteered. i said something to the effect of "how did you know to come?" mr. jenner. and what did he say? mrs. paine. he said he had heard on the radio at work that lee oswald was in custody, and came immediately to the house. mr. jenner. and that is what you recall he said? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. did he say, and i quote: "i heard where the president was shot, and i came right over to see if i could be of any help to you." mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. did he also say to you that he "just walked off the job." mrs. paine. no. he said he had come from work. i might interject here one recollection if you want it. mr. jenner. please. mrs. paine. of michael having telephoned to me after the assassination. he wanted to know if i had heard. mr. jenner. did he call you before he arrived at your home? mrs. paine. he called. he knew about the assassination. he had been told by a waitress at lunchtime. i don't know whether he knew any further details, whether he knew from whence the shots had been fired, but he knew immediately that i would want to know, and called simply to find out if i knew, and of course i did, and we didn't converse about it, but i felt the difference between him and my immediate neighbor to whom i have already referred, michael was as struck and grieved as i was, and we shared this over the telephone. mr. jenner. and his appearance in mid-afternoon, as you have related, was, according to what he said activated as you have related, that he had heard that lee oswald was now involved. mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. how did you and marina look at the parade, that is as the motorcade went along were you and marina---- mrs. paine. this was not shown on television. mr. jenner. oh, it wasn't? mrs. paine. to the best of my recollection they had cameras at the convention center, whatever it was, that the president was coming to for dinner, and for his talk. mr. jenner. and was the motorcade being described, broadcast by radio? mrs. paine. the motorcade was being described. mr. jenner. were you and marina listening to that? mrs. paine. well, it was coming through the television set, but it wasn't being shown. mr. jenner. were you listening? mrs. paine. we were. mr. jenner. did she show an interest in this? mrs. paine. oh, yes. mr. jenner. and it being broadcast in english, i assume you were doing some interpreting for her? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. is that correct? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. most of this has been covered, senator cooper, and i am getting through pages fortunately that we don't have to go over again. senator cooper. after you knew that the president was dead, and marina knew, do you know, from that time on, whether she ever went into her room, left you and went into her room? mrs. paine. i would think it highly likely that she did. the announcement that the president was actually dead came, oh, i think around : or close to . i already related that my little girl wept and fell asleep on the sofa. this was a time therefore that marina would have been putting junie to bed in the bedroom. senator cooper. between the time that you heard the president had been shot and the news came that he died, did she ever leave you and go into her room, do you remember? mrs. paine. i don't remember specifically, but you must understand that the little baby was already born. she would have had many occasions, needs to go into the room. senator cooper. do you know whether she went into the garage? mrs. paine. i don't know. senator cooper. what? mrs. paine. i don't know whether she went into the garage. mr. jenner. you have no impressions in that respect? mrs. paine. none. mr. jenner. do you recall an incident involving lee oswald's wedding ring? mrs. paine. i do. mr. jenner. would you relate that, please? mrs. paine. one or two fbi agents came to my home, i think odum was one of them, and said that marina had inquired after and wanted lee's wedding ring, and he asked me if i had any idea where to look for it. i said i'll look first in the little tea cup that is from her grandmother, and on top of the chest of drawers in the bedroom where she had stayed. i looked and it was there. mr. jenner. calling on your recollection of this man, was he in the habit of wearing his wedding ring? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. did this strike you as unusual that the wedding ring should be back in this cup on the dresser in their room? mrs. paine. yes, quite. mr. jenner. elaborate as to why it struck you as unusual? mrs. paine. i do not wear my wedding ring. marina has on several occasions said to me she considers that bad luck, not a good thing to do. i would suspect that she would certainly have wanted lee to wear his wedding ring, and encouraged him to do it. mr. jenner. in face of the fact that he regularly wore his wedding ring, yet on this occasion, that is being home the evening before, you received this call, you went to the bedroom and you found the wedding ring. did it occur to you that that might have been in the nature of a leave-taking of some kind by lee oswald, leaving his wedding ring for marina? mrs. paine. it occurred to me that that might have been a form of thinking ahead. i had no way of knowing whether or not marina had known that he left it. i was not instructed where to look for it. mr. jenner. you were not? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. but marina did say to you "would you look for lee's wedding ring?" mrs. paine. no, odum did. mr. jenner. odum did. mrs. paine. and of course clearly they would know whether he had it. mr. jenner. yes, i see. it was not marina. it was one of the fbi agents. and it is your clear recollection that he was in the habit of wearing that wedding ring all the time. do you ever recall an occasion when he left the wedding ring at home? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. to your knowledge? mrs. paine. to my knowledge, no. mr. jenner. when you obtained the wedding ring did you examine it? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. i mean did you look inside to see if there was an inscription on it or were you curious about that? mrs. paine. i gave it to mr. odum who was with me in the room. mr. jenner. mr. odum accompanied you? mrs. paine. went with me to the bedroom. i am pretty sure he was the one. senator cooper. the morning of the day that the president was killed, did mrs. oswald, after she got up, say anything to you about any unusual characteristics of lee oswald's taking leave of her that morning? mrs. paine. absolutely none. senator cooper. did she talk about him leaving? did she tell you anything at all about what happened when he did get up? mrs. paine. i have a recollection that must be from her that she woke enough to feed the baby, to nurse the baby in the morning, when he was getting up to go, but she then went back to sleep after that, and she must have told me that. but that is all i know, that she had been awake, and nursed the baby early in the morning, and then went back to sleep. senator cooper. and lee oswald went back to sleep? mrs. paine. no, no, marina went back to sleep. senator cooper. oh, marina went back to sleep. was he leaving then? mrs. paine. i judge so. senator cooper. what? mrs. paine. i judge so. senator cooper. but i mean did she say anything else about him? mrs. paine. no; nothing about his leaving at all. mr. jenner. what were his habits with respect to breakfast? for example on the monday mornings of the weekends which he visited your home, did he prepare his own, and if so, what kind of a breakfast did he prepare? mrs. paine. i would say his habit was to have a cup of instant coffee only. mr. jenner. and you have a clear recollection that on the morning of the st when you went into the kitchen---- mrs. paine. the d. mr. jenner. the d, i am sorry, the d you saw a plastic coffee cup or tea cup, and you looked at it and you could see the remains of somebody having prepared instant coffee? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. and that is clear in your mind? mrs. paine. perfectly clear. i looked especially for traces of lee having been up, since i wondered if he might be still sleeping, having overslept. mr. jenner. was he in the habit on these weekends of making himself a sandwich which he would take with him? mrs. paine. no; there is no such habit. perhaps once marina prepared something for him to take with him, i think more for him to put in his room, partly for lunch, partly for him to have at his room in town and use the refrigerator. mr. jenner. but in any event, on the morning of the d you saw no evidence of there having been an attempt by anybody to prepare? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. sandwiches for lunch or to take anything else in the way of food from your home? mrs. paine. i saw no evidence, and i saw nothing that was missing. mr. jenner. at any time during all the time you knew the oswalds, up to and including november , was any mention ever made of any attempt on the life of richard nixon? mrs. paine. none. mr. jenner. just that subject matter, was it ever mentioned? mrs. paine. never. mr. jenner. to the best of your recollection did they ever discuss richard nixon as a person? mrs. paine. i can't recall richard nixon coming into the conversation at any time. mr. jenner. and to the present day--well, i want to include the time that you spoke here a couple weeks ago with marina, let us say up to and including that day had there ever been any discussion with you by marina of the possibility of lee oswald contemplating making an attack upon the person of richard nixon? mrs. paine. no; no such discussion. mr. jenner. did anyone else ever talk to you about that up to that time, talk to you on that subject? mrs. paine. well, after it was rumored in the paper, someone asked me if i thought there was anything to it but that is something else. mr. jenner. when you say recently some rumor to that effect that is what you are talking about? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. up to that time? mrs. paine. absolutely none. mr. jenner. i take it from your testimony this morning that you have seen and talked with robert oswald but once? mrs. paine. and you recall also when he came to pick up her things? mr. jenner. oh, yes. mrs. paine. twice. mr. jenner. so you saw him once for the first time in the city police station? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. you talked with him on that occasion. you saw him on one occasion when not so long after that he came out to pick up her things? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. and had some conversation with him then. have there ever been any other occasions that you have had a conversation with him directly or by telephone? mrs. paine. no. i made one attempt to have such a conversation and drove out to his home in denton and talked with his wife. mr. jenner. and what occurred then? when was that? mrs. paine. possibly in january. mr. jenner. of ? mrs. paine. right. mr. jenner. why did you go out there? mrs. paine. i had been writing letters to marina and receiving no reply, and i wanted to go and talk with both robert and his wife to inquire what was the best way to be a friend to marina in this situation, whether it was better to write letters or better not to, whether she wanted to hear from me or whether she didn't, and knowing that they had seen her, i felt they might be able to help me with this. i was told by mrs. robert oswald that robert had a bad cold, and she didn't want to expose my children who were with me, and she and i talked through the screen, and i explained what i wanted. but i didn't feel helped by the visit. mr. jenner. you did not. mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. did you feel that there was a lack of cordiality? mrs. paine. she apologized for not having me in, and she was friendly and said, "what nice children you have," but it is somewhat hard to communicate through a screen. mr. jenner. that was the only difficulty that you observed, the difficulty in talking through the screen door, the screen of the door? mrs. paine. i felt that she could have asked me whether i cared if my children were exposed. i felt that she preferred for me not to come in. senator cooper. was marina staying with them? mrs. paine. i don't believe so. i am pretty certain she was at that time at the martin's home. senator cooper. did you get any impression in your talk with mrs. robert oswald that they were not interested in finding out the information that you were asking for? mrs. paine. she offered the opinion that she didn't think there was any particular point to writing letters at this time, but she offered no reason. mr. jenner. by the way, do you have copies of those letters, mrs. paine? mrs. paine. at home. mr. jenner. i know now that i will be to see you on monday. mrs. paine. monday? mr. jenner. yes. are you going to be home on monday? mrs. paine. i am flying monday morning. shall we go together? i am not leaving until monday morning. mr. jenner. i am going down sunday night. so may i see those letters on that occasion? mrs. paine. as soon as i get home. mr. jenner. would you be good enough---- mrs. paine. i will have to translate them. mr. jenner. all right. mrs. paine. that will take a while. mr. jenner. with respect to the curtain-rod package, would you be good enough to leave it intact, don't touch it, just leave it where it is without touching it at all. mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. now you have related to us the texas school book depository employment, the ability to operate an automobile. i am going to read a list of names to you, and you stop me every time i read a name that is familiar to you. there are some of the russian emigré group in and around dallas. some of them may not be russian emigré group people, but some of the members of the staff want these particular persons covered. george bouhe. mrs. paine. i don't know him. mr. jenner. i want also your response that you didn't hear these names discussed by either marina or lee. mrs. paine. i have never heard that name discussed by marina or lee oswald. mr. jenner. mr. and mrs. frank ray. mrs. paine. i did not hear that name discussed by either of them. i have since learned from mrs. ford that it was to mrs. ray's home that marina went from mrs. ford's home in the fall of . mr. jenner. mr. and mrs. thomas ray. mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. i won't ask you--well, i have mr. and mrs. de mohrenschildt on my list. you have already testified about them. mrs. paine. i have met them once; yes. mr. jenner. only on that one occasion? mrs. paine. to the best of my recollection; that is right. mr. jenner. john and elena hall? mrs. paine. no; i don't know them. mr. jenner. did you ever hear them discussed by either marina or lee? mrs. paine. i have never at any time heard that name. mr. jenner. all right. i think i pronounce this correctly, tatiana biggers? mrs. paine. i am not familiar with that name, and i never heard it. mr. jenner. mr. teofil meller? mrs. paine. i am not familiar with that name. mr. jenner. lydia dymitruk? mrs. paine. i met a lydia who was working as a clerk at a grocery store in irving, and i had met marina previously. i am not certain of her last name. i am certain that marina told me not to learn russian from her, it was not grammatical. mr. jenner. i see. by the way, did marina go out by herself occasionally and shop? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. mr. and mrs. daniel f. sullivan? mrs. paine. i don't know that name. mr. jenner. mr. and mrs. alan a. jackson iii? mrs. paine. i don't know that name. mr. jenner. peter gregory? mrs. paine. i know that name; yes. that name was mentioned by, to the best of my recollection first in my presence by, marguerite oswald, who told us that she had just started at the police when i first met her---- mr. jenner. i would like that. the first time there came to your attention and your consciousness the name peter gregory was when marguerite oswald mentioned it at the police station on the d of november , is that correct? mrs. paine. yes; because she had just begun a course of study with him in order to try to learn the russian language at the public library. mr. jenner. she so said? mrs. paine. she so said. i don't recall having heard the name previously. although i am not certain. mr. jenner. paul gregory. mrs. paine. i would be absolutely certain i had never heard the name from either of the oswalds. mr. jenner. all right. is that likewise true of paul gregory who is the son i may tell you of peter gregory? mrs. paine. i am not familiar with that name. mr. jenner. mr. and mrs., i know you are familiar with this name, mr. and mrs. declan ford. when did you first hear of the name of those people with respect to november , , before or after or on that very day? mrs. paine. mrs. ford was mentioned to me by name by marina in the fall of before the time of the assassination. marina described to me a party at mrs. ford's home, and described the decor of the house and how much she admired mrs. ford's tastes, and said that mrs. ford had done most of the decorating herself. let me just say marina also told me she had stayed at someone's home in the fall of , but she did not tell me the name of mrs. ford in that connection. it came up in this other connection. it is only since the assassination that i learned she had stayed briefly at mrs. ford's. mr. jenner. i see. that is the extent of your information with respect to the fords at least up to november ? mrs. paine. up to the time of the assassination that is the extent of it. mr. jenner. i wish to be certain of this and i don't recall whether i asked you and, therefore, i will risk repetition. did marina and lee, with you or even without you, visit any people, to your knowledge, while marina was living with you in the fall of , just social visit, go out and make a social visit? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. i meant to include whether either together as a couple or separately. mrs. paine. i recall no such visit. mr. jenner. i think your testimony was when lee oswald came home on the weekends, from what you have described he remained on the premises? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. with the possible exception of one instance when he went off and bought some groceries or am i wrong about that exception? mrs. paine. he went with my children to buy some popsicles while i was teaching a student, so i was not at home that time. mr. jenner. all right. we have a report, mrs. paine, and you might help us with it on this subject, of a barber in your community, who recounts to the fbi that in his opinion lee harvey oswald or what he thinks a gentleman who was that man, came to his shop reasonably regularly and had a haircut on saturday, on saturdays, and accompanying him was what he judged to be a -year-old boy. do you recall lee oswald ever obtaining a haircut over any weekend while he was at your home? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. to the best of your recollection, subject to his being off the premises while you were away shopping, it is your present firm recollection he never left the premises once he arrived, save this one instance that you knew of when he went to get popsicles? mrs. paine. of course, i was away during that instance. mr. jenner. you were? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. but you anticipated? mrs. paine. yes. now, the morning of the th of november i was not home from something before o'clock until about that afternoon. i don't know what transpired during that time. mr. jenner. were there other occasions when you were off ministering to your children, that is taking them to the dentist or something of that nature, on a saturday or to church on sunday or to the local park on sunday, that lee oswald may have been, that is periods of time when you would not have known whether he was on or off your premises? mrs. paine. i can think only of grocery shopping which would have been an hour to an hour and a half period, and the two times that i can recall in the saturday afternoon, on a saturday afternoon that i went to dallas to teach one russian student a lesson. i can't think of any other spaces of time, hours that i was away. mr. jenner. now, this gentleman also says---- mrs. paine. except the one i have just mentioned, of course, the one of november . mr. jenner. he also says that the man he thinks was lee harvey oswald not only regularly came to his shop on friday evenings or saturday mornings for a haircut, but that he occasionally drove a station wagon. do you know of any occasion to your certain knowledge that lee drove your station wagon other than the one occasion you have already related? mrs. paine. absolutely none. mr. jenner. do you know whether lee oswald subscribed to any newspapers? mrs. paine. yes; i do. mr. jenner. what newspapers, excuse me, did he or did he not subscribe? mrs. paine. yes. they came to my door. they sat around the house until the weekend when he arrived. mr. jenner. tell us what newspapers those were? mrs. paine. i noticed a paper which i was told was from minsk. mr. jenner. was it in russian? mrs. paine. in russian. mr. jenner. did you ever see it in the sense of glancing at it out of idle curiosity if nothing else? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and it was in russian? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. was there something about it that indicated to you that it came from minsk? mrs. paine. marina told me. mr. jenner. she told you. was it a political tract or was it a newspaper as we understand newspapers? mrs. paine. it was a newspaper as russians understand newspapers which makes it a borderline political tract. mr. jenner. all right. in addition to that russian newspaper from minsk was there anything---- mrs. paine. there was a russian magazine, small, reader's digest size. mr. jenner. the witness is indicating in her hands about a page size of about nine by---- mrs. paine. six. mr. jenner. nine by six. is that about the size? mrs. paine. something like that, called the agitator, the name written in russian. mr. jenner. the word "agitator" was written in russian, printed in russian? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. on the face or cover page of this document, is that true? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. was the entire document in russian? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. did you have occasion to look at it? mrs. paine. just the outside. mr. jenner. your curiosity or intellectual interest never went beyond reading any portion of one of the issues? mrs. paine. it never did. mr. jenner. but you do recall definitely the title page? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. any others? mrs. paine. crocodile, which is a russian satirical humor magazine. mr. jenner. was that in russian? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. did you have occasion to read it and to observe russian humor? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. it was not political in character? mrs. paine. being satirical, of course, it made political reference but it was not particularly political in nature. mr. jenner. it was not designed as a political tract, put it that way. mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. anything else? mrs. paine. yes. the russian magazine ogonok. mr. jenner. what does that mean in russian? mrs. paine. it means "bonfire" or "fire". mr. jenner. was that printed in russian? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. did you have--did your curiosity lead you to read any portion of it? mrs. paine. or it may be--let's see, i am not certain in my translation, but go ahead with the question. mr. jenner. you are not certain of your translation of the word? mrs. paine. of that single word? mr. jenner. of the title of this document about which you are now speaking? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. but you think it means what you said it meant? mrs. paine. it has something to do with fire; yes. mr. jenner. did you read any portion of any of those issues? mrs. paine. yes; i did. mr. jenner. and what was the nature of it with respect to whether it was political or otherwise? mrs. paine. it was not political. mr. jenner. what was its nature? mrs. paine. narrative, special articles of interest to the general population. marina enjoyed reading this one. mr. jenner. she enjoyed it? mrs. paine. she expressed herself as disliking the agitator. she interpreted some of the things in crocodile for me which i had difficulty understanding. mr. jenner. anything else? mrs. paine. yes. he subscribed to time magazine. mr. jenner. here in america? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and did he read it when he come out on weekends? mrs. paine. yes; he did. he read that first. mr. jenner. sat down and read that first. did he take the issue away with him when he left every week? mrs. paine. it is my impression he did. mr. jenner. are there any others? mrs. paine. yes. he subscribed to the militant. mr. jenner. militant. what is the militant? mrs. paine. it is a paper in english, newspaper style and i would say these next two---- mr. jenner. published by whom? mrs. paine. i don't know. mr. jenner. socialist worker's party? mrs. paine. i have been so told. mr. jenner. you just don't know? mrs. paine. i don't know. mr. jenner. but was it a political tract? mrs. paine. i don't know that. mr. jenner. did you read it? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. why didn't you? mrs. paine. i wasn't interested. mr. jenner. because of the nature of the document? mrs. paine. if i had had time to do much reading, i might have taken an interest but i had no time, insufficient time to do the reading i really wanted to do. he also subscribed to the worker. mr. jenner. is that the publication of the communist party usa? mrs. paine. i have been told so. mr. jenner. did you read that? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. did you observe--have you now concluded the list of newspapers, periodicals or magazines to which he was a subscriber? mrs. paine. i believe so. i might say that my awareness of his subscribing to these last two, the militant and the worker, came after the assassination. there was mail awaiting for him for that weekend which he did not pick up on the st, and after the assassination, indeed, after saturday evening, the d, when it was announced on television that they had a photograph of lee oswald holding two papers. i looked at this pile of mail waiting for him which consisted of these two newspapers, the militant and the worker, and i threw them away. mr. jenner. you threw them away? mrs. paine. without opening them. mr. jenner. why did you throw them away? mrs. paine. i was pleased to throw away anything i could. i just didn't want it. mr. jenner. well, my question or query, and i think expression of surprise, is activated by what i am about to ask you as to whether you might call that to the attention of the fbi? mrs. paine. oh, i am sure they knew. mr. jenner. how are you sure they knew? mrs. paine. because mail stopped coming on the spot, nothing came after the assassination, i was certain it was still coming to some place. mr. jenner. but this was almost instantaneously after you heard a broadcast that a photograph of him had been found in which he had been holding up the militant. but you immediately went to see if he had that mail and there was a copy of the militant and you threw it away? mrs. paine. why not? mr. jenner. well, it occurred to me you might have called the fbi's attention to the fact that it had come to the house. but you didn't in any event? mrs. paine. no; i didn't. mr. jenner. did you report it to the fbi in any of these interviews you had subsequently with them, or did they ask? it is two questions, if you will answer both. mrs. paine. if so, it was quite recently. mr. jenner. when did the other papers begin to arrive? did i interrupt you before you had a chance to complete your answer to my question? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. the papers different from the worker and the militant, when did they begin to arrive at your home? mrs. paine. well, they began to arrive, i would say, some time after october th. that is, of course, my judgment. that is a rationalization. mr. jenner. these magazines and newspapers you have recounted first appeared at your home after lee oswald came to dallas and became employed or came to dallas to live at your house and to seek employment? mrs. paine. he came to dallas, he lived in dallas, but he used my house. mr. jenner. he came to your house? mrs. paine. as a residence, mailing address. never asked to and i never complained but i noticed, of course, that he was using it as a mailing address. mr. jenner. up to that time and even though marina was living with you nothing of that nature came to your home? mrs. paine. what? mr. jenner. prior to the time that lee arrived at your home on or about or on the th of october , none of these newspapers or periodicals had come to your home, is that correct? mrs. paine. that is correct. mr. jenner. was he a reader of the local newspaper? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. you were a subscriber to what? mrs. paine. to the irving newspaper and the sunday dallas morning news. mr. jenner. did he read both of those? mrs. paine. he was very interested in seeing the sunday paper edition especially. he read both, to the best of my recollection. mr. jenner. he also read the daily papers? mrs. paine. well, he wasn't there daily. mr. jenner. when he was there he read it? mrs. paine. the irving paper didn't come out on saturday, so it was only the sunday papers. mr. jenner. but there were occasions when you had issues, the friday issue around or thursday issue around your home? mrs. paine. i don't recall his being interested in back issues. mr. jenner. are there any letters and communications between you and marina or between you and lee oswald to which you have not called my attention? mrs. paine. there never were any letters of any sort between me and lee oswald except unless you could include this english portion to which i have already called your attention in a letter to marina. mr. jenner. yes. mrs. paine. the only other letters--i have called your attention to all such letters, but i will have to wait until you are in dallas to see the letters written since the assassination to marina. mr. jenner. then i will ask you this question. you produced for my inspection all of these letters other than the ones that i will see when i am in dallas which you have identified as having been written subsequent to, subsequently to, november , , is that correct? mrs. paine. that is right, you have all the correspondence. mr. jenner. all right. mrs. paine. wait, we did omit one letter which you have from marina. mr. jenner. yes; i have it here. mrs. paine. you have no gaps that i could supply you. mr. jenner. i appreciate the fact i have that letter which we found not relevant and, therefore, i did not tender it. you have tendered to me everything other than those i will see when i reach dallas. mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. now, do you recall having a conversation with dr. froelich rainey---- senator cooper. may i ask, just a moment, the letter which has not been tendered and which was said not to be relevant---- mrs. paine. you have a copy of it. senator cooper. to whom was that letter addressed? mr. jenner. that is addressed to marina. senator cooper. may i ask, does counsel have a copy of that letter? mr. jenner. yes; i have a copy of the letter and i have preserved the original and i also have a typewritten copy. senator cooper. it has not been offered as part of evidence? mr. jenner. it has not been offered because it is irrelevant to anything referred to here and it also has a personal remark in it that mrs. paine would prefer not to have spread on the record. mrs. paine. a remark not pertinent to the assassination or to the oswalds but to my marriage. mr. jenner. is the name---- senator cooper. let me just say for the record i think that will have to be a matter which will have to be considered by the members of the commission. mr. jenner. all right. the letter to which you have reference you have exhibited to me, it is in your handwriting and it is in the same condition now as it was, a copy of a letter as i recall? mrs. paine. which letter are you referring to? (short recess.) senator cooper. on the record. mr. jenner. i will do some jumping around because we have some tag ends to cover, i hope in a hurry. you left new orleans on september , was that in the morning or afternoon? mrs. paine. it was early morning. mr. jenner. early morning. did you drive right straight through to irving? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. you stopped then the evening of september , is that right? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. and where, in texas? mrs. paine. yes; it was just over the line into texas. mr. jenner. do you remember the name of the town? mrs. paine. no; i don't. mr. jenner. did you pay for that lodging? mrs. paine. yes; i did. mr. jenner. by the way, was there ever any financial arrangement agreed on with respect to marina's stay with you in the fall of which would involve your giving her $ a week or any other sum? mrs. paine. no; nothing was said beyond this attempt in the letter that i made to make her feel that she would not be having to ask for every need. mr. jenner. we have those letters now in evidence and you testified about them yesterday? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. returning your attention to the time that mr. oswald, lee oswald, came to irving in october of , that is october , and reported to you he hitchhiked, you recall that? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. he remained overnight the night of the th of october, is that correct? mrs. paine. yes; he did. mr. jenner. did he return to dallas the following day? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. was he driven back to dallas within the next couple of days by you? mrs. paine. my recollection is that i took him to the bus station around noon on the th of october, that is a monday. mr. jenner. you did not drive him all the way into downtown dallas? mrs. paine. no; i don't believe so. mr. jenner. marina has testified, or at least when interviewed by the fbi stated, that you did drive lee to downtown dallas. mrs. paine. i have given you all my recollections on this matter, haven't i, for the record? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. paine. with---- mr. jenner. even after further reflection last night your recollection is as you have already stated? mrs. paine. that there was an occasion that we were going in with a russian typewriter on an errand of mine to get that fixed, and i drove him to ross street and some crossroad, and he said was near to the employment office. mr. jenner. i see. what occasion was this? mrs. paine. what day? mr. jenner. day, yes; please? mrs. paine. i don't recall but i would be fairly certain it was a monday. mr. jenner. and had he been out at your home over the weekend? mrs. paine. yes; that is my best recollection. mr. jenner. was it after he had become employed with the book depository? mrs. paine. no; he was on his way to the employment office. this was his purpose. mr. jenner. so it was sometime prior to the weekend, was it, that the matter of employment by the texas book depository had arisen? mrs. paine. i would judge that it has to have been on the th, which was monday prior and indeed morning prior to the conversation at mrs. roberts about this. mr. jenner. i see. mrs. paine. but i may be wrong about that, but it is my best recollection. mr. jenner. did the conversation at mrs. roberts take place on the th of october? mrs. paine. no; on the th. mr. jenner. on the th. that was what day of the week? mrs. paine. monday. mr. jenner. did you drive him into dallas on that day? mrs. paine. i can't think when else it could have been. mr. jenner. and to the best of your recollection that is probably the day then? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. did you indicate--did marina accompany you? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. did she or you indicate any interest in driving by and seeing his apartment or room? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. was there any discussion at any time, mrs. paine, in your home or otherwise, with marina or with lee, as to the appearance of his rooming house, curtains flooring, what it was like? mrs. paine. the only thing i recall is that he described it as more comfortable than the $ room he had occupied, told me the cost of it, said that he could watch television and had privileges to use the refrigerator. mr. jenner. but other than that he didn't describe it? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. was there ever any discussion of any need on his part for curtains, that he liked to brighten up his room or in any respect, any additional appointments? mrs. paine. there was no such conversation at any time. mr. jenner. you are acquainted with dr. froelich rainey? mrs. paine. i am. mr. jenner. he is--what is his position with the university of pennsylvania. he has a position with the university of pennsylvania music department, has he not? mrs. paine. he is the curator, the head man, as i understand it. mr. jenner. you are acquainted with his wife penelope? mrs. paine. i am. mr. jenner. does penelope speak russian fluently? mrs. paine. she has a very good command of the language. i think she has not had very much opportunity to use it in speech. mr. jenner. have you had occasion to inquire of mrs. rainey as to whether she might assist you with your russian studies? mrs. paine. well, there was never any discussion of assisting me in the role of tutor. she did some years ago loan me a record which i taped that was in russian, and we visited this fall as part of my trip in the east. mr. jenner. you mean, summer, not fall. mrs. paine. well, it was, yes, august probably or early september that i saw her. mr. jenner. and you do recall during the course of your summer trip before you went, that is you wound up in new orleans from that trip? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. so we are talking about the same trip. mrs. paine. that is the same trip. mr. jenner. you did see her? mrs. paine. i did. mr. jenner. where in philadelphia? mrs. paine. at her home. mr. jenner. where is her home? mrs. paine. her home is not far from the residence where i was staying in paoli. it is suburban philadelphia. mr. jenner. did you have occasion then to report to her that--about marina? mrs. paine. yes; i did. mr. jenner. and advise her in that respect, that she was married to an american who is now residing in new orleans? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. did you say to her that the, i will call the, lady, marina, but it is stated differently here, appeared to be having marital difficulties with her husband. mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and would you state what your remarks were to mrs. rainey in that connection? that is the treatment of marina by lee? mrs. paine. i don't recall exactly what i said as to the treatment, but that marina was unhappy, and that i thought she should have some alternative to living with him, and that i would probably, when down there, offer for her to live at my home. she asked me what michael thought of that, and i said we had discussed it but that michael and i were not living together, and this was news to mrs. rainey, and concerned her deeply. and i said that i was lonely. i recall one important thing in what i said to mrs. rainey, that i never said in conversation to anyone else, that i was worried about offending lee, that if offended, or if he felt i was taking his wife or not doing what he wanted in the situation, that he might be angry with me, and that i didn't want to subject myself or my children to possible harm from him. she is the only person to whom i mentioned my thought that he might possibly be a person who could cause harm, and there was a very, not a strong thought in my thinking at all, but should be registered as having at least occurred to me, that he could be angry to the point of violence in relation to me. mr. jenner. to the point of physical violence in relation to you? mrs. paine. in relation to me in this situation and i wanted to be perfectly sure before i made any offer definite that he was not, in fact, angry at my offer. mr. jenner. do you recall visiting your sister sylvia? mrs. paine. yes; indeed. mr. jenner. you were there about days? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. did you discuss marina when you were with your sister? mrs. paine. very probably. mr. jenner. and in substance did you say to your sister that you intended to go to new orleans in the course of your trip within about weeks to pick up marina who was pregnant, she was the wife of an american, and she was to live with you in your home in texas? did you say that much to her? mrs. paine. well, i probably said it depended on whether she wanted to go. mr. jenner. other than that have i stated the substance in that connection? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. did you also say to her that marina wanted to leave her husband who was not supporting her, and was a jerk as far as his husband's role was concerned? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. you did not. what did you say, did you say anything of similar import? mrs. paine. similar? mr. jenner. that is, you did imply to your sister, did you, that marina wished to leave lee? mrs. paine. no. i would guess that was her interpretation. mr. jenner. what did you say in this connection, please? mrs. paine. i don't recall exactly. mr. jenner. well, did you say, did you express your personal opinion to your sister as to lee oswald? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. what did you say in that connection. mrs. paine. my opinion of lee oswald was quite negative all the way up to---- mr. jenner. this is what you have told your sister now, that is what i want. mrs. paine. i can't recall exactly what i told my sister at all. mr. jenner. yes. mrs. paine. i talked with virtually everyone i saw this summer, and there were a great many people, about this friend because it was important to me. i have already testified that i thought lee didn't care enough about his wife and wasn't being a proper husband in the spring and through the summer, therefore, and it wasn't until i was in new orleans that i thought he cared at all. mr. jenner. i am just confining myself to this period. during this period as you visited your friends you did have occasion to express a negative opinion on your part with respect to lee oswald? mrs. paine. indeed. mr. jenner. is that correct? mrs. paine. that is correct. mr. jenner. it might have been more or less forceful in that expression of your opinion depending on the person with whom or to whom you were talking. mrs. paine. i would say that my sister's reaction to what i said was more forceful than what i said. mr. jenner. but you did express a negative opinion. mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. you testified that--are you acquainted with a dr. carl hyde? mrs. paine. he is my brother. mr. jenner. did you discuss marina and lee with him when you visited there in september of ? mrs. paine. i recall particularly an evening discussion with his wife where i told quite a lot about the contact that i had had with marina. mr. jenner. did you state to either or both of them that marina's husband was a communist? mrs. paine. that is possible. i think it is more likely that i referred to him as a marxist. mr. jenner. now, what is the distinction between a marxist and a communist in your mind? mrs. paine. distinction is not clear to me, but i judged that lee felt there was a distinction as he---- mr. jenner. what was your impression as to what lee thought a marxist was as distinguished from a communist? mrs. paine. i have no clear impression. mr. jenner. if i suggested the possibility of, that a marxist tenet was the change in government by violent means rather than gradual process? mrs. paine. this is not something i ever heard from him. mr. jenner. was it anything that you ever thought of? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. a concept that you ever had? mrs. paine. in describing marxism? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. did you ever discuss with lee why he was--he always took care to distinguish to say that he was a marxist as distinguished from a communist? mrs. paine. no; i never did. mr. jenner. did you form an impression as to what he intended to convey by that description? mrs. paine. he intended to convey that he was more pure, i felt, that was my impression. mr. jenner. more pure than what? mrs. paine. than a communist. mr. jenner. did you also say to your brother or your sister or both of them that lee had not permitted her to learn english, that is marina? mrs. paine. very probably. mr. jenner. and that marina was experiencing marital difficulties with lee? mrs. paine. very probably. mr. jenner. did you ever say that marina did not share her husband's political views? mrs. paine. yes; i did. mr. jenner. excuse me, that is to your brother or sister or both of them? mrs. paine. to the best of my recollection. mr. jenner. speaking of the marital difficulties, did you ever have the feeling that marina was in some measure a contribution--contributed toward those, causing those difficulties or a catalyst from which those difficulties resulted? mrs. paine. i didn't have that feeling. mr. jenner. you did not. what feeling did you have in that direction, assuming you had one? mrs. paine. all the time i knew her or at least any references from her of the matter to their marriage left me with the impression that it was hopeful that though it was difficult they could work out their difficulties. mr. jenner. and that she was desirous of attempting to do so? mrs. paine. she was desirous of attempting to do so though still leaving open the possibility that in time she would have to conclude that she couldn't. she by no means simply gave in to him on every point or let him walk on her, but that, i would say, is a healthy thing for the marriage rather than anything contributive to any fundamental difficulty in it. mr. jenner. have you completed your answer? senator cooper. may i ask a question? mr. jenner. yes. senator cooper. did marina ever indicate to you in any way whether or not she felt, after she came to the united states and saw lee oswald in his country in which he had been born and reared, that she found him unintelligent or a person of mean ability, small ability or poor background? did she ever have any comment in any way on his being inferior? mrs. paine. i don't recall her ever commenting in that way. mr. jenner. was she disappointed in any way after he returned to the united states? mrs. paine. i don't recall her ever saying that. i had heard mrs. ford express such an opinion. mr. jenner. that would be hearsay? mrs. paine. that would be hearsay. mr. jenner. did you know, are you familiar with the report that appeared in the fort worth press on january , , reporting that you had told marvin lane that lee could not have taken the rifle from your garage and gone to practice without your knowledge? do you recall that? mrs. paine. i do. mr. jenner. mark lane. mrs. paine. it is mark but that perhaps was in the fort worth press. i recall that. mr. jenner. did you ever make that statement to a reporter for the fort worth press? mrs. paine. yes, i did; with slight variation. it always came out a more definite statement in the press than i meant to make it. mr. jenner. what did you say to the reporter then? mrs. paine. i said i did not see how he could have taken the gun from the garage without my knowing it. there were two weekends particularly in question which had been reported in the press that someone had seen him at a firing range, one being the weekend of the th and th, and i was home virtually all of that weekend except monday the th as i have already described. the other being the following weekend, and i didn't see how he could have--the weekend he was not out at my house, i didn't see how he could have come out, taken the gun, gone away without my knowledge, and if the gun had not been in that garage that weekend, i didn't see what the purpose of his coming out the st of november was in the situation. and this is what i told mr. tackett of the fort worth press. mr. jenner. did you also tell mr. tackett in addition to, that his reasons for his not engaging in rifle practice that weekend or any other weekend was that he couldn't drive an automobile? mrs. paine. very probably. mr. jenner. and also that he couldn't have walked that far for rifle practice? mrs. paine. yes. by that far i mean there is no place you can walk to from my house, not only not to the firing range, but to an open enough place where you could fire. it would be difficult to walk that far. mr. jenner. where was the firing range at which it was suggested he practiced? mrs. paine. i don't know exactly. it was in the grand prairie area, just south of where we are located. but it would be a -minute car drive i would expect. mr. jenner. from your home to the firing range. do you know, did you ever go to the firing range to see where it really was located? mrs. paine. no; i never did. mr. jenner. you are relying on the newspapers, are you? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. when you say thinking of its location you are thinking of the general location of grand prairie, tex. mrs. paine. yes. senator cooper. were you asked to give your opinion on that? mrs. paine. i think so. senator cooper. why would you submit that as your conclusion that he could not have taken the rifle away, could not have got to a firing range? mrs. paine. the only thing--well--it had been reported in the press that he had been seen at a firing range or someone said he had seen him, oswald, at a firing range on the weekend of the th, th, and the following weekend and it seemed to me important to say what i could on the subject if i had any contrary information, and i did any time the reporters asked me about it. senator cooper. when you made a statement about the rifle, were you considering the fact that he had left your house on the morning of the st before you got up? mrs. paine. i don't understand the question. senator cooper. the d, yes. mrs. paine. let me say in making such a statement to the press, i was not implying that i didn't think oswald had taken a gun from my house on the morning of the d. now, you ask the question again and perhaps i will understand it better. senator cooper. were you referring to two weekends when he left your house in saying that he couldn't take the gun or were you including also the morning of the d? mrs. paine. i was definitely not including the morning of the d. mr. jenner. may i proceed, mr. chairman. senator cooper. yes. mr. jenner. do you know of any occasion when lee and marina did or might have visited the welfare office of the salvation army on your return from dallas? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. having in mind all your contact with them during that period, do you have an opinion as to whether that could have taken place, that they did visit the salvation army welfare office? mrs. paine. it was suggested that this was in the fall of the year? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. paine. i don't know of any time that they could have. mr. jenner. do you recall in your discussion with mr. randle when the matter of the texas school book depository possible employment came up, did you make a statement to mrs. randle suggesting that she not mention to anyone that marina was of russian birth? mrs. paine. after he had been hired i told mrs. randle that lee was worried about losing his job, and asked her if she would mention to wesley that he was worried about this, and would prefer for it not to be talked about where he worked, that he had a russian wife as that would, therefore, bring up the subject of his having been in russia and, therefore, the subject of his having tried to change his citizenship there, and she said to me oh, she was certain that wesley would not talk about it. mr. jenner. that was the extent of the conversation? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. and its thrust, rather than the cryptic thrust i have given it? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. do you know a frank krystinik? mrs. paine. i do. mr. jenner. he is an associate of your husband? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. did you have occasion to say to him at any time that lee oswald was not properly taking care of his wife and children? mrs. paine. i could well have given him that impression or given him that impression through michael. i didn't very often see frank. mr. jenner. but you could have made that remark to him? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. you made similar remarks to others? mrs. paine. indeed, i have. mr. jenner. during the time you visited with your mother-in-law, mrs. young, did you say to her that lee wished his wife to return to russia alone? mrs. paine. i very probably did. mr. jenner. and also that he did not wish his wife to learn to speak english? mrs. paine. i would judge that i did. mr. jenner. and that marina did not wish to return to russia? mrs. paine. that is correct. senator cooper. while you are getting your papers together can i ask a few questions? mr. jenner. surely. senator cooper. i refer to november when the police came and you and marina went into the garage with the police, you testified about that. then you discovered that there wasn't anything in the blanket. now, at a later time, i believe you testified that the police showed marina a rifle and asked her if she could identify this rifle that she had seen in lee's possession. what did she say about it? mrs. paine. she said that her husband's rifle had been a dark gun, that she was not certain that that was the one. that she could not absolutely recall whether there had been a telescopic sight on his gun or not. senator cooper. was she speaking in russian? mrs. paine. that is right. senator cooper. were you translating? mrs. paine. no, mr. mamantov. senator cooper. were you following what she said? mrs. paine. yes; indeed. senator cooper. how did she designate the sight? what words? mrs. paine. it is a russian word that sounded to me like binocular, as i recall. senator cooper. did she refer to it as a sighting device not in the words sighting device, but did her language in substance as she described it give reference to it as a sight on the rifle? mrs. paine. my judgment is that mr. mamantov used the word in reference to it first, you see, and then she simply used the same word. asking her was she acquainted with this, and giving the word in russian, and she said she wasn't certain she had seen that binocular or whatever the word used was on the gun. senator cooper. now, at any time on the d, after she had admitted that she had seen a rifle before, and in your talk with her, either on the way into the police station or any other time, did she say anything more about having seen the rifle before? mrs. paine. no; she didn't. senator cooper. to you? what? mrs. paine. no. senator cooper. did you know who brought lee oswald to your house from dallas when he would come for his visits? mrs. paine. after he had gotten his job it was my understanding that he came with wesley frazier. senator cooper. did you ever hear him say that anyone else brought him to your house? mrs. paine. no; i didn't. senator cooper. did he ever say that any fellow worker at the depository brought him to the house? mrs. paine. other than wesley frazier; no. senator cooper. did he ever mention by name or any description any of the people with whom he worked at the depository? mrs. paine. except for wesley; no. senator cooper. he never mentioned any one of his fellow workers, associates there? mrs. paine. none. senator cooper. did he ever refer to them in any way as liking or disliking them as a group or as individuals? mrs. paine. no; he didn't. senator cooper. in your talks with him or in hearing him talk did he ever refer to any persons who were friends of his or associates? mrs. paine. i never heard him mention anyone. senator cooper. he never mentioned the name of any person? mrs. paine. not anyone. he mentioned a friend in houston as i have already testified, no name and i was wondering whether there was any such friend, i recall that. that is absolutely the only reference i can recall. senator cooper. you said that you told someone that marina did not agree with his political views? mrs. paine. yes. senator cooper. how did you know that? mrs. paine. she told me she wasn't interested in politics. she told me indeed that lee complained about her lack of interest. senator cooper. that is something different from saying that she didn't agree with them. mrs. paine. well, she did say that she didn't like his having passed out leaflets in new orleans. this is still different from saying she disagreed, though. but that is the most i can say. senator cooper. did she ever tell her what her political views were, if any? mrs. paine. she said she didn't consider herself a person interested in politics. she---- senator cooper. did she ever refer to lee being a marxist or a communist? mrs. paine. i don't recall such a reference ever. senator cooper. did she ever tell you whether or not she was a marxist or a communist? mrs. paine. no. i assumed she was not either. senator cooper. what? mrs. paine. i assumed she was not either. she did at one point poke fun at the party faithful who attended a young communist meeting in minsk, whom she considered a dull lot and the meetings quite dull. senator cooper. i missed the early part of your testimony so you may have testified to this, but i thought that i recalled that you did answer a question addressed to you by someone, a member of the commission or counsel, in which you said that you were attracted to the oswalds when you first met them, one, because you wanted to perfect your own russian, and did you say, too, that you were interested because of the fact that he had been a defector and had returned and it was an unusual circumstance which interested you? mrs. paine. it made him an odd person. senator cooper. what? mrs. paine. it made him an odd person. i was interested in the curious sense of what could have motivated him to do this. senator cooper. having that interest, didn't you ever talk to him about it, inquire about his experience? mrs. paine. i guess i wasn't interested enough. senator cooper. what led him to do it? mrs. paine. and as i have already testified he always wanted to speak russian to me, which shortens my tongue. i can't say as much or raise as many questions. senator cooper. well, did you try to search out the reasons for his defection and the reasons for returning? mrs. paine. no; i didn't. senator cooper. and his political views, his economic views, that kind of thing? mrs. paine. no; i regret now that i didn't take any interest, but i did not. senator cooper. you said that, in answer to counsel that, you either did tell people or probably told them that you believed lee oswald was a communist. mrs. paine. it is my impression i spoke of him as he spoke of himself as a marxist. senator cooper. and you think, you believe, that has some relationship to communism? mrs. paine. oh; yes. senator cooper. i think you have stated that you didn't believe it was necessary for a person to actually be a member of the communist party to be a communist in his views? mrs. paine. yes. but that i considered it something less than actually accurate to call such a person a communist that went on being---- senator cooper. other than the persons you have named in your testimony as having come to your house, was there anyone else who ever came to your house, who talked to lee oswald or marina? mrs. paine. i recall no one other than the people i have mentioned, sir. senator cooper. knowing that he was as you have described in your own words, a marxist, were you concerned at all about that or worried about that, as being in your home? mrs. paine. well, as i have described in testimony, i asked myself whether or not he might be a spy. i was not at all worried about ideology contrary to my own or with which i disagreed, and it looked to me that he was a person of this ideology or philosophy which he calls marxism, indeed nearly a religion. but not that he was in any way dangerous because of these beliefs. senator cooper. thinking now and then that he might be a spy or in the employ of the soviet union, were you concerned about the fact that such person who might be a spy or an agent of the soviet union was living in your house? mrs. paine. well, if you recall my testimony i concluded that he was not, and also i was pleased that the fbi had come and i felt that they would worry about that, and that i didn't need to worry about any risk to me of public censure for my befriending such a person. senator cooper. you told about the newspapers and periodicals that he received and read. mrs. paine. yes. senator cooper. did he also have any books that he read while he was at your house? mrs. paine. i don't recall his reading books while he was at my house. he watched television a great deal but i don't recall his reading books. senator cooper. you said that he did not have very ample means, financial means. were you struck with the fact that he was able to have these newspapers sent to him from russia, england, new york? mrs. paine. yes, i observed---- senator cooper. the communist worker comes from new york. mrs. paine. yes, nothing from england, i recall, but he certainly considered these valuable. he was willing to spend money on these, i observed that, yes. it was rather unusual or unlike the rest of his behavior in that he did spend money for these periodicals. senator cooper. did you ever lend any money to either marina or lee oswald? mrs. paine. no. senator cooper. what? mrs. paine. no. mr. jenner. did you ever give them any money? mrs. paine. cash money; no. senator cooper. what? mrs. paine. cash; no. of course, i bought groceries but that is not what you are asking. senator cooper. you gave no money in the sense that you turned over physical possession of it? mrs. paine. i did not. senator cooper. to either lee or marina? mrs. paine. no; not at any time to either one. senator cooper. you did help them in the sense that you provided a home for marina and on occasion provided food for lee? mrs. paine. that is right. senator cooper. i have just one or two more. you said at one time you came to the conclusion that he wasn't an agent or spy because you didn't think he was intelligent enough. i believe you said that. mrs. paine. that and the fact that as far as i could see had no contacts or any means of getting any information that would have been of any interest to the soviet union. senator cooper. yet he was intelligent enough that he had learned to speak russian. mrs. paine. his russian was poor. his vocabulary was large, his grammar never was good. senator cooper. you said that he had, i believe, had the initiative to go to russia, not as a tourist but as for reasons that he had developed himself, and that he came back when he made up his mind to come and was able to bring his wife. you knew he moved around rather quickly, didn't you? he was in new orleans---- mrs. paine. in this country? senator cooper. yes. mrs. paine. no, i knew he had been in fort worth and had come to dallas to seek work and then losing work had gone back to new orleans and then back to dallas. senator cooper. what made you willing to have this man, you have said, this very curious man, from all you have described about him, to have him in your house? mrs. paine. he was marina's husband and i like her, and i, as i have described, was both lonely and interested in learning the russian language. i would have been happy had he never come out, indeed happier had he not come out on the weekends. but they were not separated as a married couple nor contemplating such separation, and i didn't feel that this--it was appropriate for him to have to stay away. i did not ask that. senator cooper. prior to the time that marina left your home--the day of the assassination, wasn't it? mrs. paine. she left the next day. senator cooper. the next day. had you and marina ever had any disputes or quarrels between yourselves? mrs. paine. i have referred to just one time when she in a sense was taking me to task on the matter of whose property their address was, i just mentioned that, that is the only time i recall. mr. jenner. that is the incident in which you---- mrs. paine. following the november th meeting with mr. hosty. mr. jenner. mr. hosty. mrs. paine. yes. senator cooper. you had said that, i believe you said, prior to the assassination you considered lee oswald as being violent or dangerous? mrs. paine. well, now i have said that the thought crossed my mind once in relation to myself. senator cooper. what caused that? mrs. paine. that he might be violent, because i thought he might resent my stepping in to do for his wife what he was not doing. senator cooper. what made you think he would be violent about it if he wasn't caring about taking care of her? mrs. paine. well, i wanted to satisfy myself, and i did then. the thought crossed my mind before i went to new orleans for the second time as i have referred to it in a conversation with mr. rainey, before i went to new orleans and then seeing him and changing my opinion some about him, i felt that he would not be violent or angry with me for this offer, and then proceeded with it, and this is the only---- senator cooper. i can understand why a person might be angry about something. but what about him led you to believe that he might be violent? mrs. paine. there was nothing that i could put my finger on. on the contrary my general impression was not of a man who would break out in sudden marked violence. he argued with his wife, and was distinctly unpleasant with her. senator cooper. i believe you said the other day in answer to a question by congressman boggs that you held the opinion now that he did fire the rifle at the president. mrs. paine. yes; i believe that is so but i don't know. senator cooper. from this vantage point, is there anything about him now which you think of which seems consistent with the fact that he, that you believe he did shoot the president, president kennedy? mrs. paine. well, what has led me to the conclusion that he did shoot president kennedy is the massive circumstantial evidence that surrounds his relationship or where he was, what he had at the time of the assassination. perhaps we should get into the matter of motive. senator cooper. in other words, a person's personality, is there anything you can think of now which would change your mind or change the viewpoint that you held previously that he wasn't violent? mrs. paine. no; i still can recall no incident that i saw, nothing or thought at the time, with this small exception of the one reference to mrs. rainey that--and that was a conjecture in reference to myself. nothing that violent or indeed that insane. senator cooper. was it your opinion that mrs. oswald was shaken by the assassination and by the fact that her husband was charged with it? mrs. paine. she was certainly shaken on the afternoon when the policemen were out there, when he was at that time just charged with the shooting of tippit. i never saw her after he was charged with the shooting of the president. senator cooper. one other question: i think you said when marguerite oswald, lee oswald's mother, came to your house, and the life people later appeared, you spoke of that, did you say that both of them, both marina and marguerite, seemed to be interested in making some kind of a deal with life in order to get money? mrs. paine. no. senator cooper. or were you speaking only of marguerite oswald? mrs. paine. i was speaking only of marguerite oswald. i could add here that marina appeared to me to want to be courteous and polite toward her mother-in-law, and wished to go along with whatever wishes marguerite had on the subject. senator cooper. has anyone tried to make any kind of a business transaction for your statement or story? mrs. paine. at that time or since? senator cooper. since. mrs. paine. yes. senator cooper. what? mrs. paine. yes. the commission has a copy of an article that was written for look which was not published and will not be. senator cooper. has that been testified? mr. jenner. will not be what? mrs. paine. published. it is now my property and i don't plan to, i have no plans presently, at least. senator cooper. just for the record, have you entered into any kind of business transaction by which you would be paid for a story about this assassination? mrs. paine. i will not be paid for any story i write, and i am certain now i don't want to write any such story. i have, however, worked with miss jessamyn west, who is an author for an article which will appear in time and red book magazine, or i expect it will. she is writing that, she talked to me. mr. jenner. she approached you on that article? mrs. paine. no one approached me in that article. was already decided before i was asked. but that is---- mr. jenner. who decided it? mrs. paine. i had implied that i would be willing to do this, but not to anyone i thought was making an offer. this is aside. mr. jenner. this was an offer to help the subject of the interview being interviewed? mrs. paine. all i really should say in clarification here is that there was bad communication between red book, miss west and myself, and she was under the impression that i had agreed to do this before she had in fact been contacted, but then the fact of red book and miss west thinking that this was something i had agreed to i then did agree to do it. (discussion off the record.) senator cooper. back on the record. have you been paid or promised any monetary consideration for any article that you might write or you might assist someone else in writing about your experiences connected with the oswalds? mrs. paine. the complete answer to that would be that i received a $ advance from look magazine for helping in the writing of that article which will not appear, and that i have been told i will receive $ from red book magazine for helping miss west in writing that, and if you want, i will tell you what i think about what i want to do with this money but perhaps that is not pertinent. senator cooper. if you want to? mrs. paine. well, i plan to give it away. mr. jenner. you mean give it to charity? mrs. paine. to charity. senator cooper. that is all i have. mr. jenner. you have referred to a look magazine article in the preparation of which you have assisted. i have marked as commission exhibit no. a document which i received from mr. george harris, after you had authorized me to call him and ask for it. would you glance through that and verify that that is the article in the final form? you have examined commission exhibit . is that the look article to which you have made reference in your testimony here this afternoon? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and that article, however, is not one to be published? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. did you look over that article in this final form and approve it as to text and statements made in it? mrs. paine. yes; although i don't think the final draft had been done or final approval given before it was decided that it would not be used. mr. jenner. but as this exhibit stands, commission exhibit no. , the text and statements that are made in there had your approval? mrs. paine. yes; they are, of course, not all of my words. mr. jenner. of course, not. the article was written by? mrs. paine. by george harris, who is a senior editor on look magazine, and he wrote it from typed copy he had directly as he had taken it from my telling. mr. jenner. so it is, to use somewhat of a vernacular, it is ghost written? mrs. paine. it is ghost written but most of it is my words. mr. jenner. i offer in evidence, as commission exhibit no. , the document we have just identified. senator cooper. it will be received in evidence. (the document referred to, heretofore identified as commission exhibit no. , was received in evidence.) mr. jenner. do you have an interest in the russian language as has appeared from your testimony? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. mrs. paine, are you now or have you ever been a member of the communist party? mrs. paine. i am not now and have never been a member of the communist party. mr. jenner. do you now or have you ever had any leanings which we might call communist party leanings. mrs. paine. no; on the contrary. mr. jenner. are you now or have you ever been a member of any groups which you consciously recognize as being, let us say, communist front groups? mrs. paine. no; i have not and i would be quite certain i had not been unconsciously a member of any such groups. mr. jenner. i take it from your response that you have an aversion to communism? mrs. paine. yes; i do. mr. jenner. and would be at pains and have been at pains during your adult life, at least, to avoid any association with or any advancement of communism as we know and abhor it? mrs. paine. yes; that is right. if i may say here, i am offended by the portion of the communist doctrine that thinks violence is necessary to achieve its aims. i am likewise offended by the doctrine that any means to what is considered a good end is legitimate. i, on the contrary, feel that there is no justification at any time for deception, and the communists, as i have observed their activity, have no reluctance to deceive, and this offends me seriously. mr. jenner. in that thinking, violence also impels you against the communist faith? mrs. paine. it certainly does. mr. jenner. or political doctrine? mrs. paine. yes; their espousal of violence repels me. mr. jenner. you have an interest in the russian language? mrs. paine. yes; i do. mr. jenner. now, the members of the commission, all of them are interested in how you came to have your interest in the russian language, and they would like to have you indicate when it first arose and under what circumstances and what impelled you to have an interest in the russian language; start from the very beginning of your life in that connection--that episode in your life? mrs. paine. all right. to be really the very beginning i will start and say i have been interested in other languages before being interested in russian. i studied french in high school, german in college, and got a tutor to study yiddish when i was working with a group that spoke that language. mr. jenner. that is the golden age group of the young---- mrs. paine. men and young women---- mr. jenner. hebrew association in philadelphia? mrs. paine. that is correct. mr. jenner. at that time you were employed by? mrs. paine. that organization. mr. jenner. by that organization. and were you doing work in connection with this plan of antioch college? mrs. paine. no; that was after i had completed my work at antioch. mr. jenner. i see. mrs. paine. well, i do believe i did get some credit for that year at antioch although i had completed my academic work, i was still getting some credit for my job credit, that is. mr. jenner. all right, proceed. mrs. paine. and then i was working with a group of young quakers, had been indeed for sometime. mr. jenner. please fix a little more definite time, please? mrs. paine. i began my interest in young quakers in . mr. jenner. in ? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. as quite a young girl? mrs. paine. when my interest also began in the quaker church. mr. jenner. you were then what, you were years old? mrs. paine. i was going on , as a matter of fact. mr. jenner. going on ? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. you were going to high school? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. where were you living then? mrs. paine. i was living in columbus, ohio. mr. jenner. and you became interested in the quaker faith then or at least in the quaker activity? mrs. paine. both. mr. jenner. and were you a member of the friends society, young people's society in columbus at that time? mrs. paine. i attended the meeting which is the quaker church in columbus. they didn't have enough young people to have a society in that particular meeting. but then in college i became active in the national young friends group. mr. jenner. what is the official name of that? mrs. paine. the name at that time was the young friends committee of north america. it included canada young friends. and in this connection i was, i served, as chairman or conference coordinator for a conference of young friends that was held in . mr. jenner. where? mrs. paine. at quaker haven, ind. mr. jenner. did you attend that? mrs. paine. i did. it was at this conference, toward the latter part, part of really arising out of a discussion of the need for communication and more of it between the united states and the soviet union by no means the bulk of the business of this conference, but a small committee of interested people, was working on this matter. mr. jenner. are these interested young people? mrs. paine. these are all young friends. mr. jenner. and you were then of what age, . ? senator cooper. years ago? mrs. paine. , going on , that is right. mr. jenner. going on . was this in the summer time? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. vacation period? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. i see. by the way, mrs. paine, you had been to england, had you not, in some activity of the friends society back in ? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. that was what meeting did you attend, and as a delegate of what? mrs. paine. i was selected as a delegate of the lake erie association which is the larger group to which my meeting in columbus belonged. mr. jenner. your quaker meeting? mrs. paine. my quaker meeting. to go as a delegate to the friends world conference held at oxford, england, in the summer of . i also attended a young friends conference held in reading, england, just before the larger conference. shall i return now to the conference at quaker haven in ? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. paine. i felt a calling in friends terminology at that conference. mr. jenner. an impulse, a desire, is that what you mean, a pulling? mrs. paine. more than that, that god asked of me that i study language, and i can't say that it was specifically said what language. this was at the time that plans first began for encouraging an exchange of young people between the soviet union and the united states, and i became active with the committee planning that, and from that planning there was an exchange, three soviet young people came to this country and four young quakers went to the soviet union, and i was very much impressed with the dearth of people in this country who could speak russian. here was a need for communication with people we had to live with, although we disagreed with them, certainly disagreed with the government, and the first elements of communication, the language, was not available among most young people, and even among older people in the country. my letter of june , , marked commission exhibit no. - contains a statement of my motivation to study russian. so it was this really that started me upon a course of study in russian. then once started, i was more propelled by my interest in the language itself. shall i describe what training i have had? mr. jenner. well, please. i want to cover something else before that. i offer commission exhibit no. - in evidence. the chairman. it is received. mr. jenner. was there a movement also in this connection which you are now describing of a pen pal communication between young people here in america and young people in russia? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. did you have anything to do with that? mrs. paine. there was a subcommittee of this young friends committee of north america which was called east-west contact committee. mr. jenner. were you the leader of that committee? mrs. paine. i was not. but i was chairman of a committee of that committee, which was called correspondence, and i helped make contact between young people in this country who wished to write to someone in the soviet union, and an organization of young people in moscow which found pen pals for these young americans. we particularly wanted to go through an official organization so as to be certain we were not endangering or putting suspicion upon anyone, any young person in the soviet union to whom we were writing. we felt if they picked their own people that would lessen the suspicion of the soviet person. mr. jenner. were you active in that group? mrs. paine. i was chairman of that for sometime. mr. jenner. did you take part in the pen pal correspondence yourself? mrs. paine. yes; i did. mr. jenner. and do you recall now the names of the russian young people or russian young person with whom you communicate, or sought communication? mrs. paine. i recall i wrote a few letters to a person named ella, i have forgotten her last name, and i don't believe i have the correspondence still. if i did, i don't any more. mr. jenner. if you once had it? mrs. paine. if i once had it, i don't have it now in my possession, and then that stopped because she stopped writing. i wrote and got another correspondent whose name is nina aparina, with whom i corresponded up to last spring, i would say, and i haven't--yes; and i haven't heard anything from her for about a year. mr. jenner. what was the nature of the correspondence, particularly with respect to subject matter? mrs. paine. we discussed? mr. jenner. in this letter period? mrs. paine. we discussed our mutual interest in language. she was a teacher of the english language. she married an engineer during the time of our correspondence. mr. jenner. russian? mrs. paine. yes; of course. mr. jenner. russian citizen? mrs. paine. yes. we exchanged a magnetic tape recording one time. i sent her one and she sent one with music and readings, hers were music and readings in russian, and mine was similar in english as part of language study aid. my last communication said she was expecting a baby last june but i haven't heard anything from her since that communication, as i say, probably a year ago that came. mr. jenner. now all of your activity, this activity, of correspondence between you and any citizen in russia, was part of it, originated in the young friends group, an activity to supply here a meeting with, communication by, americans with citizens in russia, and then latterly in your communication with the lady you have last mentioned, a mutual exchange between the two of you here to improve her english and you to improve your russian? mrs. paine. that is right. the committee was formed much the same time that our state department made arrangements with the soviets for cultural exchange, and i think our purposes were similar but, of course, outside the government. mr. jenner. now the three russian students who came over here, did you have any contact with them? mrs. paine. i met them once at an open meeting in north philadelphia. mr. jenner. were a number of other people present? mrs. paine. oh, yes. mr. jenner. and that is the only contact you had with them? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. all right. proceed. mrs. paine. except that i read a book that was written by one of these students nearly a year after he had gone back to the soviet union which i found most disillusioning, i must say, in which it was pure propaganda. mr. jenner. he sought to report what his experiences here were in america? mrs. paine. he sought to report on this trip that he had taken, that we had worked to achieve. mr. jenner. did you regard him as fair or accurate, that is, what you read? mrs. paine. what i read of the book he wrote was extremely inaccurate and unfair. mr. jenner. did it misrepresent america as you knew it? mrs. paine. misrepresented america, certainly. mr. jenner. all right. mrs. paine. shall i go on now to what i have studied? mr. jenner. yes. have you had any formal education in the study of the russian language? mrs. paine. yes; i have. i attended a concentrated summer course at the university of pennsylvania in the summer of where, during the course of weeks, we completed a first year college russian text. mr. jenner. what year did you say that was? mrs. paine. i believe that was . mr. jenner. all right. mrs. paine. and then i had difficulty keeping that up, keeping russian up over the next year, but the following year i was no longer teaching and took a course at berlitz school of languages in philadelphia in russian, and improved my ability to converse, and it helped me to recall what i had gone through rather too fast in this accelerated course. i then applied for the summer course at the middlebury college summer language school in middlebury, vt., in the summer of and attended that -week course. at middlebury they required that you speak nothing but the language you are studying the entire time, both in class and out. this was very valuable though very difficult. mr. jenner. who was your instructor? mrs. paine. there? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. paine. i took three courses. natalie yershov. mr. jenner. you were relating, mrs. paine, you recalled one of your instructors at middlebury? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. do you recall the name of any other? mrs. paine. offhand i can't recall. i recall certainly the director of the school but he was not an instructor of mine. mr. jenner. did you have a roommate? mrs. paine. yes; i did. mr. jenner. what was your roommate's name? mrs. paine. her name was helen mamikonian. mr. jenner. is that correct? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. do you still have contact with her? mrs. paine. it has been a long time since i have written but we have exchanged christmas cards. mr. jenner. christmas cards and an occasional letter? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. where does she live? mrs. paine. she lives and works in boston where she is a teacher of russian language at simmons college, as i recall. mr. jenner. did she at one time live in new york city? mrs. paine. yes; her home is new york. she spent her high school years there after having immigrated from france, and i believe her mother still lives there, is a tutor for the berlitz school in russian in new york. mr. jenner. her mother is? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. all right. now we have your study at pennsylvania, university of pennsylvania, and your study at the berlitz school in philadelphia, was it? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. and your study at middlebury college. what additional formal or at least let us say semiformal instruction or education have you had in the russian language? mrs. paine. i then moved to the dallas area to the place where i presently live in irving, and then i would guess it was early in i took up some study again at the berlitz school in dallas, completed a course which i had paid for in philadelphia, and then went on after that with private lessons with mrs. gravitis, who has already been mentioned. mr. jenner. is mrs. gravitis also an instructor in the berlitz school in dallas? mrs. paine. i met her because she was an instructor for a short time there and i think is yet on call to them as an instructor. mr. jenner. does that cover your formal education in the russian language? mrs. paine. yes; it does. mr. jenner. now, are you a teacher of russian? mrs. paine. i have one student whom i teach beginning russian. mr. jenner. is that a connection with an established institution? mrs. paine. it began in connection with an established institution during the summer of , at the saint marks school of texas in dallas, tex. mr. jenner. and you were the teacher of russian in the saint marks school during that quarter or summer term? mrs. paine. summer term. mr. jenner. and arising out of that has been your engagement as a tutor, is that correct? mrs. paine. that is correct. mr. jenner. who is your student? mrs. paine. my student's name is bill h-u-t-k-i-n-s. mr. jenner. is he, what is he, a young man? mrs. paine. i am sorry, it is h-o-o-t-k-i-n-s. mr. jenner. how old is he? mrs. paine. he turned in the summer. mr. jenner. is he a native american so far as you know? mrs. paine. as far as i know, yes. mr. jenner. is it your--has it been also your desired objective on your part to teach russian as a regular instructor or teacher in the public or private schools? mrs. paine. yes; i would like to do that. mr. jenner. that is still your hope and desire? mrs. paine. it interests me very much. mr. jenner. and it has been for sometime an objective of yours, has it? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. i will ask you a couple of general questions. first, i will probably repeat this when i examine you in your deposition also, mrs. paine, but i desire to have it on this record before the commission, is there anything that has come to your mind that you would like to relate to the commission which you think might be helpful to it in its deliberations in consideration of the serious problems and events into which they are inquiring? mrs. paine. there are a few small items i hope we will get into tomorrow. mr. jenner. would you please state them as to subject matter, at least. would they take very long for you to state? mrs. paine. i will make an attempt to be brief here. i recall that lee once used my typewriter to type something else beside this note, is that what you want? mr. jenner. yes; would you turn and direct your remarks to the chairman, to senator cooper, so we can all hear you and you might speak up a little bit, your voice has been dropping. mrs. paine. i am tired. i recall that lee once asked to borrow my typewriter and used it to type something i judged was a letter at sometime prior to this day november , when he typed a letter which we have a rough draft. this is probably no use to you. mr. jenner. that is what i call the mexico letter? mrs. paine. that is what you call it, all right. mr. jenner. all right. give the exhibit. mrs. paine. it is exhibit no. . mr. jenner. thank you. mrs. paine. i want to know whether you want to inquire of me my account of secret service agents having come and asked me, having come out to the house after the assassination to ask me if i had ever seen a particular note which they had. and i have later assumed that this is what has been referred to in the press as the note written by oswald at the time of the attempt on walker and if you want i will make it clear all i know in relation to that. mr. jenner. yes; i recall that incident and i wish you would, please. mrs. paine. and then the other thing is simply to invite the members of the commission, but if it is a deposition i can't do that then, to feel free to ask me any questions that are not settled in their mind or clear regarding the separation which existed between myself and my husband, if that is troublesome in any way or if there is anything in which---- mr. jenner. mrs. paine, if that doesn't embarrass you, members of the commission have voiced to me some interest in that, that is an interest only to the extent they are seeking to resolve in their mind who ruth paine is and if i may use the vernacular, what makes her tick, so would you relate that now on the commission record, please? mrs. paine. all right. i might say that i think it is important and relevant here because if i had not been separated from my husband i would have not as i think i have already testified, made an invitation to anyone to join the family circle, especially in such a small house. really, i might ask if you have questions it might be easier for me to answer them. mr. jenner. perhaps we can bring it along in this fashion. what was the cause of the separation between your husband and yourself, in your view? mrs. paine. in my view, of course, yes. he expressed himself as not really interested in remaining married to me. we never quarreled. we never indeed have had any serious difference of opinion except i want to live with him and he is not that interested in being with me, would be our single difference of opinion. and in the spring of i felt that something more definite should be done, and asked michael why he continued to live with me if he felt that way about it, and he said that it was easier and cost less, and i said that wasn't a good enough reason for a marriage, and asked him to be out of the house in the fall when i returned from summer vacation that year. mr. jenner. that was ? mrs. paine. , yes. i would say our marriage is marked both by mutual honesty, that is exceptional, and by a lack of overt or interior strife except that it hasn't quite come together as a mutual partnership. my mother recently said to me that "if you would just look only at what michael does there is nothing wrong with your marriage at all. it is just what he says", and i concur with her opinion on that, that he is so scrupulously honest with his own feelings that, and really too hard on himself in a sense, that he states verbally this is not feeling that he loves me or loves me enough, but in fact his actions toward me are totally acceptable to me. mr. jenner. is he gracious and kind and attentive to you? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. has he always been? mrs. paine. insufficiently attentive, i would say, but he is always kind and thoughtful. mr. jenner. have you had any financial differences of opinion? mrs. paine. we have not. mr. jenner. he even during this period of time when you were separated, he voluntarily supported the household and you lived in a manner and style that suited you or to which you had become accustomed? mrs. paine. yes, that is right. mr. jenner. you had no arguments about matters of that nature? mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. your husband has returned to your home? mrs. paine. he is living there now. mr. jenner. how long has that been? mrs. paine. he has been staying there since the night of november . he didn't move his belongings in until the middle of the following week. mr. jenner. would you say this is a reconciliation? mrs. paine. i can't say that. mr. jenner. you cannot. do you wish to say any more in the statement of yours? mrs. paine. not unless you have questions. i think it is an accurate statement of the marriage. mr. jenner. all right. what brought this forth was my asking you if you had anything you would like to bring before the commission. mrs. paine. that is correct. mr. jenner. are there any others? mrs. paine. i can think of nothing else. mr. jenner. to the best of your present recollection are the statements and the testimony you gave, you have given so far, before the commission consistent with statements you have given to the fbi, to secret service, to magazine reporters, editors, to anyone? mrs. paine. the statements i have given here are fully consistent with anything i have said before except that the statement here has been much fuller than any single previous statement. mr. jenner. and you have testified to matters and things before the commission about which, which you did not relate or even had occasion to relate in your mind, at least, to fbi agents, to secret service agents and to the others that you have identified in general terms? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. mrs. paine, you and i had the opportunity, you afforded me the privilege of speaking with you before your testimony commenced, before the commission. and also i think the first day of your testimony you were gracious enough to return here to the commission room and we spent several hours talking? mrs. paine. yes. mr. jenner. as a matter of fact, we left around : , a quarter of one in the morning, did we not? mrs. paine. yes, that is right, we did. mr. jenner. now, recalling back to those periods of conferences with me, do you have any feeling or notion whatsoever that any of your testimony before the commission was in any degree whatsoever, inconsistent with anything you related to me? mrs. paine. oh, no; i don't think so, not in any way. mr. jenner. not in any way. do you have any feeling whatsoever that during the course of my conferences with you, outside this commission, that i influenced or sought to shape your testimony in any respect? mrs. paine. no. clearly i felt no influence from you. mr. jenner. all of the statements that you related to me were free and voluntary on your part, and not given under any coercion, light or heavy, as the case might be, on my part. mrs. paine. that is right. mr. jenner. mr. chairman, there are some additional matters we wish to examine the witness about and representative ford has given me a rather long list of questions he asked me to cover. he regretted that was necessary because of his enforced absence, and mrs. paine has agreed that she would be available in the morning, and i may examine her by way of deposition before a reporter under oath, and with that understanding of the commission, of you, mr. chairman, i would at this moment as far as the staff is concerned, close the formal testimony of mrs. paine before the commission, with advice to you, sir, that tomorrow morning i will cover additional matters by way of deposition. senator cooper. as i understand the matters you will go into by deposition will not be any new evidence in the sense of substance but more to---- mr. jenner. i can tell you what they are, it will be her background, some of which she has now given in regard to her study of the russian language. more formal proof of her calendar, and her address book. also her general background which i have already mentioned. some correspondence between herself and her mother, and the items that mrs. paine has now mentioned she would like to relate herself. mrs. paine. one of which we took care of already. mr. jenner. one of which we took care of. we will cover those and i was going to ask her questions tomorrow, some of which we have already covered of lee harvey oswald's personality and habits and actions. i am going to ask here about mrs. shirley martin, who has appeared on the scene since the assassination, and appears to be a self-appointed investigator, and to the extent that there has been any contact between mrs. paine and mrs. shirley martin, and then inquire, i may not even do this because we have covered a very great deal of the conversations and discussions between marina and mrs. paine on various possible subjects, and i can see from my list we have covered many of them already. senator cooper. let it be ordered that evidence will be taken this way, with this reservation, of course, if the commission determines after studying the deposition that it would be necessary for her to be called again, you would be willing to come again before the commission to testify. mrs. paine. i would certainly be willing if there is any need for my coming. mr. jenner. in addition to this, mr. chairman, as i think already appears of record, i will come to mrs. paine's home in irving, tex., sometime on monday or monday evening or if she finds it more convenient, on tuesday of next week to inquire of her with a court reporter present relative to the curtain rod package, and i also will make a tour of her home and as we move about her home the reporter will record the conversation between us, questions and answers. senator cooper. are there any further questions? mr. jenner. that is all. thank you, sir. senator cooper. all right, then we will stand in recess subject to the call of the chairman of the commission. (translations of letters introduced in evidence in the course of mrs. paine's testimony are reproduced in the exhibit volumes.) _tuesday, march , _ testimony of howard leslie brennan, bonnie ray williams, harold norman, james jarman, jr., and roy sansom truly the president's commission met at a.m., on march , , at maryland avenue ne., washington, d.c. present were chief justice earl warren, chairman; representative gerald r. ford, john j. mccloy, and allen w. dulles, members. also present were j. lee rankin, general counsel; joseph a. ball, assistant counsel; david w. belin, assistant counsel; norman redlich, assistant counsel; and charles murray, observer. testimony of howard leslie brennan the chairman. the commission will come to order. mr. brennan, in keeping with our statements, so you will know just what the purpose of the session is, i will read a little statement to you. the purpose of today's hearing is to hear the testimony of howard leslie brennan, bonnie ray williams, james jarman, jr., harold norman, roy s. truly. these witnesses were all in the vicinity of the texas school book depository building at the time of the assassination of president john f. kennedy. they will be asked to provide the commission with their knowledge of the facts concerning the assassination of president kennedy. would you please rise and be sworn? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before this commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. brennan. i do. the chairman. you may be seated, mr. brennan. mr. belin will conduct the interrogation. mr. belin. mr. brennan, will you state your name for the record, please? mr. brennan. howard leslie brennan. mr. belin. where do you live? mr. brennan. woodward, dallas . mr. belin. and how old a man are you? mr. brennan. . mr. belin. are you married? mr. brennan. yes. mr. belin. family? mr. brennan. two children. one grandson. mr. belin. what is your occupation, mr. brennan? mr. brennan. steamfitter. mr. belin. and for whom are you employed, or by whom are you employed? mr. brennan. wallace and beard. mr. belin. is that a construction company? mr. brennan. yes. mr. belin. and let me ask you this: how long have you been a steamfitter? mr. brennan. since , i believe. mr. belin. do you work for one employer, or do you go from job to job? mr. brennan. i go from job to job. mr. belin. is that at your direction or at the direction of any union? mr. brennan. local in dallas. mr. belin. mr. brennan, where were you on the early part of the afternoon of november , , say around noon or so? mr. brennan. i left a position behind the book store, which is a leased part of katy yards, which we have fabrication for pipe for the republic bank building. at o'clock i went to the cafeteria on the corner of main and record. i believe that is it. mr. belin. that would be at main and record streets in dallas? mr. brennan. yes. mr. belin. and did you have your lunch there? mr. brennan. yes. mr. belin. and then after lunch, where did you go? mr. brennan. i finished lunch and i glanced at a clock--i don't know exactly where the clock is located--and noticed it was : . so i thought i still had a few minutes, that i might see the parade and the president. i walked to the corner of houston and elm. mr. belin. what route did you take to get to houston and elm? mr. brennan. i went west on main. mr. belin. you went west on main from record street to---- mr. brennan. houston. mr. belin. houston mr. brennan. and on the east side of houston, i walked to elm. mr. belin. all right. mr. brennan. crossed the street to the southwest corner of houston and elm. mr. belin. do you have any estimate about how long it took you to get there? mr. brennan. a possibility i would say more or less minutes. mr. belin. and then what did you do when you got to the southwest corner of houston and elm? mr. brennan. i stayed around a couple of minutes. there was a man having an epileptic fit, a possibility of yards east--south of this corner. and they were being attended by some civilians and officers, and i believe an ambulance picked him up. mr. belin. all right. mr. brennan. and i walked over to this retainer wall of this little park pool and jumped up on the top ledge. mr. belin. you jumped up on the retaining wall? mr. brennan. yes. mr. belin. now, i hand you what has been marked as exhibit . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. belin. i ask you to state if you know what this is. mr. brennan. yes. mr. belin. will you please tell the commission what this is? mr. brennan. that is the book store at the corner of houston and elm. mr. belin. by the book store, you mean the texas school book depository building? mr. brennan. right. mr. belin. now, do you know what---- mr. brennan. that is the retainer wall which i perched on. mr. belin. all right. this is the retaining wall on which you perched. i believe that this is actually you sitting on this retaining wall in a picture that we took in dallas pursuant to your showing us where you were november ; we took that picture on this past friday. mr. brennan. that is correct. mr. belin. which would be the th of march. is that correct? mr. brennan. that is correct. mr. belin. all right. i hand you now what the reporter has marked as commission exhibit . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. belin. i ask you to state, if you know, what this is. mr. brennan. yes. that is the retaining wall and myself sitting on it at houston and elm. mr. belin. you remember that the photographer was standing on the front steps of the texas school book depository when that picture was taken on the th of march? mr. brennan. yes; i do. mr. belin. and the camera is pointed in what direction? mr. brennan. south. representative ford. are those the positions where you were sitting on november ? mr. brennan. yes, sir. representative ford. at about ---- mr. brennan. from about : or : until the time of the assassination. representative ford. in both pictures, that is a true---- mr. brennan. true location. representative ford. true location of where you were sitting november d? mr. brennan. yes, sir. mr. belin. mr. brennan, i am going to hand you a negative, which has been marked as commission exhibit . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. belin. this appears to be a negative from a moving picture film. and i will hand you a magnifying glass--the negative has been enlarged. this negative appears to be a picture of the presidential motorcade on the afternoon of november d. i ask you to state if you can find yourself in the crowd in the background in that picture. mr. brennan. yes. i am sitting at the same position as i was in the picture taken friday, with the exception, i believe, my hand is resting on the wall, and friday my hand, i believe, was resting on my leg. mr. belin. well, your legs in this picture, exhibit , i notice, are not dangling on the front side there, is that correct? mr. brennan. no. mr. belin. what were you wearing on november d? what clothes were you wearing? mr. brennan. gray khaki work clothes, with a dark gray hard helmet. mr. belin. your head here appears to be the highest in the group, a little bit left of center in the upper part of the picture, is that correct? mr. brennan. yes, sir. mr. belin. does this scene depict the scene as you recollect it on that day, november d? mr. brennan. it does. mr. belin. mr. brennan, could you please tell the commission what happened from the time you sat on that retaining wall, what you saw? mr. brennan. well, i was more or less observing the crowd and the people in different building windows, including the fire escape across from the texas book store on the east side of the texas book store, and also the texas book store building windows. i observed quite a few people in different windows. in particular, i saw this one man on the sixth floor which left the window to my knowledge a couple of times. mr. belin. now, you say the window on the sixth floor. what building are you referring to there? mr. brennan. that is the texas book store. mr. belin. i am going to ask you to circle on exhibit the particular window that you said you saw a man leave and come back a couple of times. mr. brennan. well, i am confused here, the way this shows. but i believe this is the sixth floor, the way those windows are built there right at the present. i am confused whether this is the same window. mr. belin. you mean because some windows are open below it? mr. brennan. no. the way the building is built, it seems like this is more or less a long window with a divider in the middle. mr. belin. here is a marking pencil. will you just mark the window that you believe you saw the man. all right. and do you want to put a letter "a", if you would, by that. all right, now you have marked on commission exhibit a circle with the letter "a" to show the window that you saw a man in, i believe you said, at least two times come back and forth. mr. brennan. yes. mr. belin. did you see any other people in any other windows that you can recollect? mr. brennan. not on that floor. there was no other person on that floor that ever came to the window that i noticed. there were people on the next floor down, which is the fifth floor, colored guys. in particular, i only remember two that i identified. mr. belin. do you want to mark the window with the circle that you believe you saw some negro people on the fifth floor. could you do that with this marking pencil on exhibit , please? mr. brennan. the two that i identified, i believe, was in this window. mr. belin. you want to put a "b" on that one? now, after you saw the man--well, just tell what else you saw during that afternoon. mr. brennan. well, as the parade came by, i watched it from a distance of elm and main street, as it came on to houston and turned the corner at houston and elm, going down the incline towards the railroad underpass. and after the president had passed my position, i really couldn't say how many feet or how far, a short distance i would say, i heard this crack that i positively thought was a backfire. mr. belin. you thought it was backfire? mr. brennan. of a motorcycle. mr. belin. then what did you observe or hear? mr. brennan. well, then something, just right after this explosion, made me think that it was a firecracker being thrown from the texas book store. and i glanced up. and this man that i saw previous was aiming for his last shot. mr. belin. this man you saw previous? which man are you talking about now? mr. brennan. the man in the sixth story window. mr. belin. would you describe just exactly what you saw when you saw him this last time? mr. brennan. well, as it appeared to me he was standing up and resting against the left window sill, with gun shouldered to his right shoulder, holding the gun with his left hand and taking positive aim and fired his last shot. as i calculate a couple of seconds. he drew the gun back from the window as though he was drawing it back to his side and maybe paused for another second as though to assure hisself that he hit his mark, and then he disappeared. and, at the same moment, i was diving off of that firewall and to the right for bullet protection of this stone wall that is a little higher on the houston side. mr. belin. well, let me ask you. what kind of a gun did you see in that window? mr. brennan. i am not an expert on guns. it was, as i could observe, some type of a high-powered rifle. mr. belin. could you tell whether or not it had any kind of a scope on it? mr. brennan. i did not observe a scope. mr. belin. could you tell whether or not it had one? do you know whether it did or not, or could you observe that it definitely did or definitely did not, or don't you know? mr. brennan. i do not know if it had a scope or not. mr. belin. i believe you said you thought the man was standing. what do you believe was the position of the people on the fifth floor that you saw--standing or sitting? mr. brennan. i thought they were standing with their elbows on the window sill leaning out. mr. belin. at the time you saw this man on the sixth floor, how much of the man could you see? mr. brennan. well, i could see--at one time he came to the window and he sat sideways on the window sill. that was previous to president kennedy getting there. and i could see practically his whole body, from his hips up. but at the time that he was firing the gun, a possibility from his belt up. mr. belin. how much of the gun do you believe that you saw? mr. brennan. i calculate to percent of the gun. mr. belin. do you know what direction the gun was pointing. mr. brennan. yes. mr. belin. and what direction was the gun pointing when you saw it? mr. brennan. at somewhat degrees downward and west by south. mr. belin. do you know down what street it was pointing? mr. brennan. yes. down elm street toward the railroad underpasses. mr. belin. now, up to the time of the shots, did you observe anything else that you have not told us about here that you can think of right now? mr. brennan. well, not of any importance. i don't remember anything else except---- mr. belin. let me ask you this. how many shots did you hear? mr. brennan. positively two. i do not recall a second shot---- mr. belin. by a second shot, you mean a middle shot between the time you heard the first noise and the last noise? mr. brennan. yes; that is right. i don't know what made me think that there was firecrackers throwed out of the book store unless i did hear the second shot, because i positively thought the first shot was a backfire, and subconsciously i must have heard a second shot, but i do not recall it. i could not swear to it. mr. belin. could you describe the man you saw in the window on the sixth floor? mr. brennan. to my best description, a man in his early thirties, fair complexion, slender but neat, neat slender, possibly -foot . mr. belin. about what weight? mr. brennan. oh, at--i calculated, i think, from to pounds. mr. belin. a white man? mr. brennan. yes. mr. belin. do you remember what kind of clothes he was wearing? mr. brennan. light colored clothes, more of a khaki color. mr. belin. do you remember the color of his hair? mr. brennan. no. mr. belin. now, i believe you said that after the last shot you jumped off this masonry structure on which you were sitting. why did you jump off? mr. brennan. well, it occurred to me that there might be more than one person, that it was a plot which could mean several people, and i knew beyond reasonable doubt that there were going to be bullets flying from every direction. mr. belin. then what did you do after that? or what did you see? mr. brennan. i observed to my thinking that they were directing their search towards the west side of the building and down houston street. mr. belin. when you say "they", who do you mean? mr. brennan. law-enforcement officers. mr. belin. by the west side of the building, you mean towards the underpass or railroad tracks? mr. brennan. yes. mr. belin. after you saw that, what did you do? mr. brennan. i knew i had to get to someone quick to tell them where the man was. so i ran or i walked--there is a possibility i ran, because i have a habit of, when something has to be done in a hurry, i run. and there was one officer standing at the corner of the texas book store on the street. it didn't seem to me he was going in any direction. he was standing still. mr. belin. what did you do or what did you say to him? mr. brennan. i asked him to get me someone in charge, a secret service man or an fbi. that it appeared to me that they were searching in the wrong direction for the man that did the shooting. and he was definitely in the building on the sixth floor. i did not say on the sixth floor. correction there. i believe i identified the window as one window from the top. mr. belin. all right. mr. brennan. because, at that time, i did not know how many story building it was. representative ford. but you did say to the policeman it was a window on the second floor from the top? mr. brennan. right. mr. belin. and then what happened? mr. brennan. he---- the chairman. may i ask there. by the second floor from the top, do you mean the one directly underneath the top floor? mr. brennan. underneath the top floor, excluding the roof, yes, sir. mr. belin. and then what happened, sir? mr. brennan. he said, "just a minute." and he had to give some orders or something on the east side of the building on houston street. and then he had taken me to, i believe, mr. sorrels, an automobile sitting in front of the texas book store. mr. belin. and then what happened there? mr. brennan. i related my information and there was a few minutes of discussion, and mr. sorrels had taken me then across the street to the sheriff's building. mr. belin. did you describe the man that you saw in the window? mr. brennan. yes; i believe i did. mr. belin. mr. brennan, later that afternoon, or the next day, did you have occasion to go down to the dallas police station to try to identify any person? mr. brennan. that evening, the secret service picked me up, mr. patterson, i believe, at o'clock, at my home, and taken me to the dallas police station. mr. belin. all right. could you tell us what happened there, please? mr. brennan. if i might add a part, that i left out a couple of minutes ago---- mr. belin. go right ahead, sir. mr. brennan. as mr. sorrels and some more men were discussing this, i mentioned these two colored guys. mr. belin. yes. mr. brennan. came out of the book store, running down the steps. mr. belin. you mean the two---- mr. brennan. that i had previously saw on the fifth floor. mr. belin. all right. mr. brennan. and i immediately identified these two boys to the officers and mr. sorrels as being on the fifth floor. mr. belin. do you have anything else you wish to add now? mr. brennan. no; that concludes that. mr. mccloy. they were running out of the building? mr. brennan. they came running down the front steps of the building on the elm street side. mr. mccloy. did they then disappear in the crowd? mr. brennan. no; they took them in custody, i suppose, and questioned them. representative ford. the law enforcement officers stopped them, and you did what, then? mr. brennan. no. i believe mr. sorrels or the secret service man stopped them. i am not sure, but i don't believe an officer of the police department stopped them. representative ford. but you were standing on the steps of the texas school book depository building talking to whom? mr. brennan. mr. sorrels and another man, and i believe there was an officer standing there, a police officer. representative ford. and these two negroes came out of the front door? mr. brennan. yes, sir. representative ford. and you did what then? mr. brennan. i---- representative ford. spoke to mr. sorrels? mr. brennan. spoke to mr. sorrels, and told him that those were the two colored boys that was on the fifth floor, or on the next floor underneath the man that fired the gun. representative ford. you positively identified them? mr. brennan. i did, at that time. mr. belin. is there anything else now up to the time you got down to the dallas police station? mr. brennan. well, nothing except that up until that time, through my entire life, i could never remember what a colored person looked like if he got out of my sight. and i always thought that if i had to identify a colored person i could not. but by coincidence that one time i did recognize those two boys. representative ford. did those two negro men say in your presence that they had been in the fifth floor window? mr. brennan. i don't recall. i don't recall. mr. belin. is there anything else, sir, now up to the time you got down to the dallas police station? mr. brennan. on friday evening, you are speaking of? mr. belin. yes. mr. brennan. no. mr. belin. all right. what happened when you got down to the dallas police station? mr. brennan. mr. patterson, if i am correct in the secret service that picked me up, directed me to go to the fourth floor, a certain room on that floor. (at this point, mr. warren and representative ford withdrew from the hearing room.) mr. brennan. i later was introduced to several men--captain fritz in mr. sorrels' office, and several more men. i do not remember their names. mr. belin. all right. before i go any further, do you remember the name of the officer you talked to in front of the school book depository building? mr. brennan. i don't believe i ever heard it. i do not remember his name. mr. belin. are you sure of the names of the secret service men you talked to? i believe you mentioned the name sorrels. mr. brennan. i do not know the other man's name. mr. belin. you believe one of them was sorrels? mr. brennan. i believe one of them was sorrels. mr. belin. i think for the record---- mr. brennan. that is at the building. mr. belin. yes, sir. i think we should offer and introduce commission exhibits , , and . mr. dulles. the chief justice has asked me to preside in his absence this morning. they shall be admitted. (the documents heretofore marked for identification as commission exhibits nos. , and , were received in evidence.) mr. belin. by the way, mr. brennan, i note that you have glasses with you here today. were you wearing glasses at the time of the incident that you related here? mr. brennan. no. i only use glasses to see fine print and more especially the bible and blueprint. mr. belin. and have you had your eyes checked within the past or years? mr. brennan. these here were prescriptioned, i believe, a possibility less than a year before the incident. mr. dulles. does that mean you are farsighted? mr. brennan. yes. (at this point, representative ford entered the hearing room.) mr. belin. has there been anything that has happened since the time of november , , that has changed your eyesight in any way? mr. brennan. yes, sir. mr. belin. what has happened? mr. brennan. the last of january i got both eyes sandblasted. mr. belin. this is january of ? mr. brennan. yes. and i had to be treated by a doctor black, i believe, in the medical arts building, through the company. and i was completely blind for about hours. mr. belin. how is your eyesight today? mr. brennan. he says it is not good. mr. belin. but this occurred january of this year, is that correct? mr. brennan. yes. mr. belin. now, taking you down to the dallas police station, i believe you said you talked to captain fritz. and then what happened? mr. brennan. well, i was just more or less introduced to him in mr. sorrels' room, and they told me they were going to conduct a lineup and wanted me to view it, which i did. mr. belin. do you remember how many people were in the lineup? mr. brennan. no; i don't. a possibility seven more or less one. mr. belin. all right. did you see anyone in the lineup you recognized? mr. brennan. yes. mr. belin. and what did you say? mr. brennan. i told mr. sorrels and captain fritz at that time that oswald--or the man in the lineup that i identified looking more like a closest resemblance to the man in the window than anyone in the lineup. mr. belin. were the other people in the lineup, do you remember--were they all white, or were there some negroes in there, or what? mr. brennan. i do not remember. mr. belin. as i understand your testimony, then, you said that you told him that this particular person looked the most like the man you saw on the sixth floor of the building there. mr. brennan. yes, sir. mr. belin. in the meantime, had you seen any pictures of lee harvey oswald on television or in the newspapers? mr. brennan. yes, on television. mr. belin. about when was that, do you believe? mr. brennan. i believe i reached home quarter to three or something of that, minutes either way, and i saw his picture twice on television before i went down to the police station for the lineup. mr. belin. now, is there anything else you told the officers at the time of the lineup? mr. brennan. well, i told them i could not make a positive identification. mr. belin. when you told them that, did you ever later tell any officer or investigating person anything different? mr. brennan. yes. mr. belin. when did that happen? mr. brennan. i believe some days later--i don't recall exactly--and i believe the secret service man identified hisself as being williams, i believe, from houston. i won't swear to that--whether his name was williams or not. mr. belin. all right. mr. brennan. and he could have been an fbi. as far as i remember, it could have been fbi instead of secret service. but i believe it was a secret service man from houston. and i---- mr. belin. what did he say to you and what did you say to him? mr. brennan. well, he asked me--he said, "you said you couldn't make a positive identification." he said, "did you do that for security reasons personally, or couldn't you?" and i told him i could with all honesty, but i did it more or less for security reasons--my family and myself. mr. belin. what do you mean by security reasons for your family and yourself? mr. brennan. i believe at that time, and i still believe it was a communist activity, and i felt like there hadn't been more than one eyewitness, and if it got to be a known fact that i was an eyewitness, my family or i, either one, might not be safe. mr. belin. well, if you wouldn't have identified him, might he not have been released by the police? mr. brennan. beg pardon? mr. belin. if you would not have identified that man positively, might he not have been released by the police? mr. brennan. no. that had a great contributing factor--greater contributing factor than my personal reasons was that i already knew they had the man for murder, and i knew he would not be released. mr. belin. the murder of whom? mr. brennan. of officer tippit. mr. belin. well, what happened in between to change your mind that you later decided to come forth and tell them you could identify him? mr. brennan. after oswald was killed, i was relieved quite a bit that as far as pressure on myself of somebody not wanting me to identify anybody, there was no longer that immediate danger. mr. belin. what is the fact as to whether or not your having seen oswald on television would have affected your identification of him one way or the other? mr. brennan. that is something i do not know. mr. belin. mr. brennan, could you tell us now whether you can or cannot positively identify the man you saw on the sixth floor window as the same man that you saw in the police station? mr. brennan. i could at that time--i could, with all sincerity, identify him as being the same man. mr. belin. was the man that you saw in the window firing the rifle the same man that you had seen earlier in the window, you said at least a couple of times, first stepping up and then going back? mr. brennan. yes, sir. mr. belin. about how far were you away from that window at the time you saw him, mr. brennan? mr. brennan. well, at that time, i calculated -foot at an angle. but closer surveillance i believe it will run close to to feet at an angle. mr. belin. i believe that on friday we paced the distance between the place where you were sitting and the front door of the texas school book depository building, and it ran about---- mr. brennan. -foot. representative ford. this doesn't have to be now, but i think some time he ought to step by step on a diagram trace his movements from the restaurant until he left the scene of the shooting. mr. belin. on that particular diagram, congressman ford, which is exhibit no. , the intersection of main and houston, and of record and main is not shown. it would be a little bit to the south. representative ford. but he might be able to show the direction from which he came to get on to the scene. mr. belin. yes; that he can do. representative ford. and then his movements from there on until he left the area. i think it would be very helpful to tie down the precise places he was from time to time. mr. belin. i think he might do that right now. mr. brennan, i place in front of you exhibit , and i call to your attention that the top appears to be south rather than north, and the arrow north is pointed towards the bottom. and you will notice at the top here, running in what would be an east-west direction, is elm street. and you can see running in a north-south direction houston street, with the texas school book depository building noted here in black. do you see that? mr. brennan. it should be here. mr. belin. i will turn the map around to show you north and south; we can keep it upside down for the moment. this is elm street. to the north is pacific. main would be down here off the bottom of the map. and here is record street right here. and i believe you said you were at lunch at record and main, and then you walked to the south. i wonder if you might take this pen and kind of, off the street markings, you might start maybe down here at the bottom as to where you had your lunch. mr. brennan. this is main here. mr. belin. main would be running there, yes. if you would, put a "d" at that point. now, if you would kind of on a line trace your course that you took that day. all right. mr. brennan. i didn't go to the corner. mr. belin. you didn't go to the corner of elm and houston. that would be the southeast corner? mr. brennan. i noticed this man having a fit. and i came across at this corner. mr. belin. now, would you put the letter "e" where you ended up sitting. this is on exhibit no. . mr. brennan. "e"? mr. belin. yes. mr. brennan. i believe that would be just about where the retainer wall is. mr. belin. all right. so you have put on exhibit the letter "e" where you were sitting facing the school book depository building. representative ford. i think that it might be helpful to trace it where he went subsequent to that. mr. belin. all right. subsequent to the time of the shooting, would you put a line from your point at point "e" to where you went to talk to the police officers and the secret service officers? mr. brennan. the retaining wall come around here and straight across here. mr. belin. will you put an "f" where you talked to him? mr. brennan. the car was sitting here. that is where i talked to him. this is where i contacted the officer. mr. belin. you contacted the officer at "f". mr. brennan. yes. mr. belin. and then you went over to a car. mr. brennan. yes. mr. belin. would you put your direction to the car and put a "g" on there? mr. brennan. i walked down the street hereaways with this officer. mr. belin. all right, the point from "f" where you walked down the street, that would be walking north on houston? mr. brennan. i don't know; however, we walked down this way, but i do remember going in that direction with the officer. mr. belin. you went to the north on houston? mr. brennan. yes. and then back to---- mr. belin. well, just put a mark in there, and cut it back, if you could, just to show the route of you going north. mr. brennan. i don't know exactly however. mr. belin. all right. will you put a mark to "g" at the end? and i believe you said that the car that you talked to the secret service agent in was at point "g" approximately? mr. brennan. right. mr. belin. now, are these accurate or approximate locations, mr. brennan? mr. brennan. well, don't you have photographs of me talking to the secret service men right here? mr. belin. i don't believe so. mr. brennan. you should have. it was on television before i got home--my wife saw it. mr. belin. on television? mr. brennan. yes. mr. belin. at this time we do not have them. do you remember what station they were on television? mr. brennan. no. but they had it. and i called i believe mr. lish who requested that he cut those films or get them cut of the fbi. i believe you might know about them. somebody cut those films, because a number of times later the same films were shown, and that part was cut. mr. belin. who would mr. lish be with? mr. brennan. the fbi. mr. belin. all right. we thank you very much for that information. is there anything else that you did at point "g" or anywhere else after the time of the assassination before you went to the sheriff's office? mr. brennan. i walked up the steps and stood on the outside of the doorway. mr. belin. of what building? mr. brennan. of the texas book store, while the officers or the men that i was with gave some more orders. and then mr. sorrels taken me across to the sheriff's office. mr. dulles. you did not go inside the building? mr. brennan. no; i did not. mr. belin. did you notice any people coming out of the front stairs of the building after these two negroes came out? mr. brennan. well, i recall people going in and out, but a different picture i cannot remember. representative ford. where were you standing when you identified the two negroes? mr. brennan. on the edge of the street, outer side of the sidewalk, when the two colored boys came out of the building and came down the steps. mr. belin. was that at point "g"? mr. brennan. yes, sir. mr. belin. all right. now, perhaps on exhibit no. you can trace your route at least along houston street to the time--to the place where you were sitting. you recognize the intersection of main and houston there? mr. brennan. yes. mr. belin. all right. could you start there and kind of trace--well, i don't know if you can see all of it. mr. brennan. no. mr. belin. do the best you can, you can trace along here. here would be the intersection of main and houston. mr. brennan. i came down that side. now, this street was open at that time. mr. belin. by this street you mean houston street? mr. brennan. yes. i don't recall any parked cars there. mr. belin. could you make that line a little darker, sir, that you have put on. all right. now, at that first point, this would be---- mr. brennan. i believe i walked a little south there, just observing them picking the man up. mr. belin. all right. you have marked a line on exhibit no. heading a little bit south on the west side of houston street, commencing at the southwest corner of the intersection, which is where you say you walked to watch the man with the epileptic fit, is that it? mr. brennan. well, i didn't go up--he was almost center way of the block here. i didn't go up that far. mr. belin. all right. and will you put the letter "h" there, if you would? mr. brennan. where i was standing watching the man? mr. belin. where you were standing watching the man; yes. mr. brennan. right there. mr. belin. and then where did you go from there? mr. brennan. right there. mr. belin. all right. now, you have taken a line which would be running along the south side of elm street there towards the point where you are sitting, and that is in the picture exhibit . and that was the route that you took? mr. brennan. yes. mr. belin. put the letter "i", if you would, there, please. now, on exhibit no. , i wonder if you would perchance show us after the assassination, or the shooting--you said you first went over to another side of the wall. would it be to the east or to the west there? mr. brennan. to the east. this right here is solid concrete. mr. belin. is this where you went? mr. brennan. yes. mr. belin. all right. on exhibit , could you put the letter "j" where you went right after the shooting? all right. now, i believe you said you later stood up and eventually walked across the street to get a police officer. on exhibit , could you put a letter "k" where you believe you went to talk to this police officer, where he was. it looks like there is a car there now. so you went from point "j" to point "k", and point "k", on exhibit , would correspond with "f" on exhibit , is that right? mr. brennan. right. mr. belin. all right. now, i wonder if you could perchance show on exhibit the point that corresponds with point "g" on exhibit , which is where you said you went to the car. mr. brennan. this car here--letter what? mr. belin. "l". mr. brennan. that is this car here, sitting approximately where---- mr. belin. i note that this car that you have marked the "l" is not actually on the extreme north part of elm, but really appears to be on that part which is going down to the freeway. mr. brennan. oh, is that right? yes; you are correct there. mr. belin. now, is this accurate, or was it one that you saw parked right in front of the building? mr. brennan. right next to the curb in front of the building. mr. belin. would it be behind--you might put the letter "m" to show the car which it is behind now. mr. brennan. all right. mr. belin. you have put the letter "m" on exhibit to show the car behind the one which the secret service car was parked. mr. brennan. yes. mr. belin. at this time i believe exhibits , and should be reoffered to show all of the markings that the witness has made on these exhibits. mr. dulles. they shall be admitted as remarked. (the documents referred to, previously marked for identification as commission's exhibit nos. , , and were readmitted into evidence.) mr. belin. and also exhibit should be reoffered. mr. dulles. what is ? mr. belin. it is the large chart which also has been marked on. mr. dulles. it shall be admitted again, remarked. (the chart referred to, previously marked as commission's exhibit no. for identification, was readmitted into evidence.) mr. belin. mr. brennan, in this sixth floor window, where you saw the gun fired, did you see any objects of any kind in the window, or near the window? mr. brennan. yes. through the window, which i referred to as back in the book store building, i could see stacks of boxes. mr. belin. now, i hand you what has been marked as exhibit , which appears to be a picture of the texas school book depository building, which was taken shortly after this time. i believe on the fifth floor you can see on two of the open windows there some people looking out, and exhibit is a picture of the east windows on the south side of the fifth and sixth floors, and exhibit is an enlargement of . first of all, on exhibits and , do you recognize any of these two persons in the fifth floor window as people you saw there? mr. brennan. no; i do not recognize them. as positive identification i cannot recognize them. now, i see where there is a possibility i did make a mistake. i believe these two colored boys was in this window, and i believe i showed on that other exhibit that they were in this window. mr. belin. all right. i am going to hand you now---- mr. brennan. the only thing i said is that they were one window over below the man that fired the gun. mr. belin. well, i hand you commission exhibit , where you marked a "b" at the point there you first said you saw the negro men. is this the one you say now you might have been mistaken? mr. brennan. yes; i believe i was mistaken. i believe the two men that i identified was in this window. mr. belin. you are pointing to the window to the east of where you have now marked "b"? mr. brennan. that i am not positive of. i just remember that they were over one window from below him, which at that time i might have thought this was one window over. mr. belin. all right. let me ask you this. on exhibit , does the condition of the opening of the windows in the fifth floor appear to be that which you saw on the afternoon of november ? mr. brennan. yes. these do. mr. belin. you are pointing to the fifth-floor windows now? mr. brennan. but i don't recall this window at the time of the shooting being that low. mr. belin. now, by this window you are pointing to the window on the sixth floor? mr. brennan. right. mr. belin. on exhibit . i wonder if you would mark that with the letter "a"--if you would circle that window. and could you put an "a" on that, if you would. now, window a, on exhibit , when you saw it, how high do you believe it was open? mr. brennan. i believe that at the time he was firing, it was open just like this. mr. belin. just like the windows on the fifth floor immediately below? mr. brennan. that is right. mr. belin. i note in window "a" there appear to be some boxes in the window. to the best of your recollection, what is the fact as to whether or not those boxes as shown in this exhibit appear to be similar to the ones you saw on november ? mr. brennan. no; i could see more boxes. mr. belin. in the window or behind the window? mr. brennan. behind the window. mr. belin. i am talking in the window itself. mr. brennan. no, no. that is--i don't remember a box in the window, these boxes i remember are stacked up behind the window, and they were zigzagged, kind of step down, and there was a space it looked like back of here. mr. belin. now, you are pointing to a space which would be on the east side, is that right? mr. brennan. yes. mr. belin. when you say you don't remember---- mr. brennan. well, i can see those boxes there now. i don't know whether you can see them or not. it seems like i can see the boxes in that picture. am i right? mr. belin. i don't know, sir. i can't see them on exhibit . that could be the dirty window here. mr. brennan. here they are here. those boxes there. mr. belin. well, here is exhibit . first of all, i see a box on exhibit , right in the window. mr. brennan. yes; i don't recall that box. mr. belin. do you recall that it definitely was not there, or just you don't recall whether it was or was not there. mr. brennan. i do not recall that being there. so, therefore, i could not say it definitely wasn't there. mr. belin. you cannot say whether it was or was not? mr. brennan. no. mr. belin. on exhibit , do you want to point an arrow to where you believe you can see boxes back there. or where you saw boxes. all right. let the record show that exhibits , , and were taken by, i believe it is, underwood or--just a second. thomas c. dillard, chief photographer of the dallas morning news, who was riding in the car with robert h. jackson, who has already testified before the commission, and the deposition of mr. dillard will be taken by mr. ball and me in dallas in the first part of april. and that exhibits , , and were taken shortly after the firing of the third shot. i think that this should appear in the record. i think it should also appear in the record that exhibit is one of the frames from the abraham zapruder movie film. mr. brennan, from the time you first saw the presidential motorcade turning north on houston from main, did you observe the window from which you say you saw the last shot fired at any time prior to the time you saw the rifle in the window? mr. brennan. yes. mr. belin. well, what i am saying is this. you saw the motorcade turn? mr. brennan. no; not after i saw the motorcade, i did not observe a man or rifle in the window. mr. belin. did you observe the window at all until after you heard that first sound which was a backfire or firecracker, at least you thought it was? mr. brennan. no. mr. belin. so you did not observe the window and would not know whether or not there was any man in the window during that period? mr. brennan. no. mr. belin. well, let the record be clear. the first sound you first thought was what? mr. brennan. backfire of a motorcycle. mr. belin. and then you later said something about a firecracker. did that have reference to the first shot, or something in between the first and last? mr. brennan. i positively thought that the first shot was a backfire of a motorcycle. and then something made me think that someone was throwing firecrackers from the texas book store, and a possibility it was the second shot. but i glanced up or looked up and i saw this man taking aim for his last shot. the first shot and last shot is my only positive recollection of two shots. mr. mccloy. did you see the rifle explode? did you see the flash of what was either the second or the third shot? mr. brennan. no. mr. mccloy. could you see that he had discharged the rifle? mr. brennan. no. for some reason i did not get an echo at any time. the first shot was positive and clear and the last shot was positive and clear, with no echo on my part. mr. mccloy. yes. but you saw him aim? mr. brennan. yes. mr. mccloy. did you see the rifle discharge, did you see the recoil or the flash? mr. brennan. no. mr. mccloy. but you heard the last shot. mr. brennan. the report; yes, sir. mr. dulles. could you see who or what he was aiming at? you testified as to the declination of the rifle, the angle of the rifle. but could you see what he was firing at? mr. brennan. subconsciously i knew what he was firing at. but immediately i looked towards where president kennedy's car should be, and there was something obstructing my view. i could not see the president or his car at that time. and i still don't know what was obstructing my view, because i was high enough that i should have been able to see it. i could not see it. mr. belin. mr. brennan, on one of your interviews with the fbi, they record a statement that you estimated your distance between the point you were seated and the window from which the shots were fired as approximately yards. at that time did you make that statement to the fbi--and this would be on november. to the best of your recollection? mr. brennan. there was a mistake in the fbi recording there. he had asked me the question of how far the shot was fired from too, and also he had asked me the question of how far i was from the shot that was fired. i calculated the distance at the angle his gun was resting that he must have been firing to yards. now, i---- mr. belin. you mean or yards from where? mr. brennan. from kennedy's position. mr. belin. but could you see kennedy's position? mr. brennan. no; i could not. but i could see before and after. mr. belin. in that same interview, you stated that you attended a lineup at the dallas police department at which you picked lee harvey oswald as the person most closely resembling the man you observed with the rifle in the window of the texas school book depository, but you stated you could not positively identify oswald as the person you saw fire the rifle. now, is this an accurate recording of the statement you made to the fbi on or about november ? mr. brennan. yes; i believe---- mr. belin. in other words, that part of the fbi statement is correct, as to what you told them? mr. brennan. yes. mr. belin. what was the fact as to whether you could or could not identify the person, apart from what you told them? mr. brennan. why did i---- mr. belin. no. what was the fact. could you or could you not actually identify this person as the man you saw firing the rifle? mr. brennan. i believed i could with all fairness and sincerity. as you asked me the question before, had i saw those pictures of oswald prior, which naturally i don't know whether it confused me or made me feel as though i was taking unfair advantage or what. but with all fairness, i could have positively identified the man. mr. belin. now, on december there appears to be another interview that you had with an agent of the fbi in which you at that time, according to this report, stated that you could now say that you were sure that lee harvey oswald was the person you saw in the window at the time of the assassination, but that when you first saw him in a lineup you felt positive identification was was not necessary, because it was your understanding that oswald had already been charged with the slaying of officer tippit, and you also said that another factor was that you had observed his picture on television prior to the time of identification, and that that tended to cloud any identification you made of oswald at the police department. now, does this december interview accurately record what you told the fbi with regard to that matter of identification? mr. brennan. i believe it does. mr. belin. now, later we have an interview on january with the fbi in which at that time the interview records that while you were at home and before you returned to view the lineup, which included the possible assassin of president kennedy, you observed lee harvey oswald's picture on television, and that you said that this, of course, did not help you retain the original impression of the man in the window with the rifle, but that upon seeing lee harvey oswald in the police lineup, you felt that oswald most resembled the man whom you had seen in the window. now, is that what you told the man on january --that oswald most resembled the man that you had seen in the window? mr. brennan. yes. mr. belin. does that mean you could not give him a positive identification at that time, but could merely say he most resembled the man in the window? mr. brennan. well, i felt that i could. but for personal reasons i didn't feel like that at that moment it was compulsory and i did not want to give a positive identification at that time. mr. belin. now, this last interview was on january th. you still felt these personal reasons as recently as january th, then? mr. brennan. no. i felt better about it. this is the first guy that---- mr. belin. no. i am referring now to the last interview you had on january th, in which it says that you felt that oswald most resembled the man you had seen in the window. is that what you told them? mr. brennan. yes. you mean told this man? mr. belin. on january th; yes, sir. mr. brennan. no; i don't believe i told this man in those words. i told him what i had said at the lineup. but he might have misinterpreted that i was saying that again. mr. belin. in other words--well, i don't want to say in other words. when you said on january th that upon seeing lee harvey oswald in the lineup you felt that oswald most resembled the man whom you had seen in the window? mr. brennan. yes. mr. belin. now, i am referring to a statement to the fbi on january th of this year. mr. brennan. all right. mr. belin. by that, did you have reference to your own personal recollection, or what you said at the time of the dallas police department lineup? mr. brennan. i believe i was referring to what i said at the dallas police department. mr. belin. on january th of this year, what is the fact as to whether or not you could give--whether or not you felt on november d that the man you saw in the window was the man you saw in the police lineup--not what you told him, but what was the fact? mr. brennan. on january th, at that time i did believe that i could give positive identification as well as i did later. mr. belin. you mean in the december interview? mr. brennan. yes. mr. belin. let me ask you this: you said you saw the man with the rifle on the sixth floor, and then you said you saw some negroes on the fifth floor. mr. brennan. yes. mr. belin. did you get as good a look at the negroes as you got at the man with the rifle? mr. brennan. yes. mr. belin. did you feel that your recollection of the negroes at that time was as good as the one with the man with the rifle? mr. brennan. yes--at that time, it was. now--the boys rode up with me on the plane--of course i recognize them now. but as far as a few days later, i wouldn't positively say that i could identify them. i did identify them that day. mr. belin. well, for instance, when i showed you exhibit , you said that you could not identify---- mr. brennan. well, the picture is not clear enough, as far as distinct profiles. mr. dulles. mr. belin, i don't think you have asked they be admitted as yet. mr. belin. no, sir. i have one more mark to make on them, sir. mr. brennan. the pictures there are not clear enough, the profile is not distinct enough. mr. belin. all right. now, i wonder if you would take on exhibit , if you can kind of mark the way the rifle was at the time you saw it. here is a red pencil. if you could put on exhibit the direction that you saw the rifle pointing, sir. mr. brennan. i would say more at this angle. maybe not as far out as this. mr. belin. you have put a line, and i have tried to make a little bit darker line. mr. brennan. that is as close as i can get it. mr. belin. this is on exhibit --as to the angle at which you saw the rifle. and you say perhaps it wasn't out of the window as far as this line goes on exhibit , is that correct? mr. brennan. right. representative ford. that is the angle that you believe the rifle was pointed? mr. brennan. yes. mr. dulles. and that is from the area in the window from which the rifle was pointing? mr. brennan. right. mr. belin. could you tell whether or not any part of the rifle was protruding out of the window? mr. brennan. on a straight view like that it looked like it was. but as i have told investigating officers prior, a person would have to be at an angle to tell how much was protruding out of the window. it did look at that time that as much was protruding out of the window as there was in the window. mr. belin. at this time, we offer and introduce into evidence exhibits , , and . mr. dulles. they will be accepted. (the documents heretofore marked for identification as commission exhibits nos. , , and were received in evidence.) mr. mccloy. i have one or two questions, if you are finished, mr. belin. mr. belin. one more question, sir. did you ever tell anyone that you were yards away from that window where you saw the gun? mr. brennan. no. it was a misunderstanding. my first calculation was that i was about -foot out from the window, and the calculation of the window -foot up. so the hypotenuse there would be approximately -foot. that was my first calculation. but since we made a step of the grounds friday, i was farther out than feet. approximately feet is what we calculated friday. mr. belin. one additional question, sir. when did you first see exhibit ? mr. brennan. this morning. mr. belin. this morning here. and on exhibit , who picked the person out as being you in that picture? was it you or was it i? mr. brennan. i did. i might add that prior to friday, no one had ever gave me any information on your evidence whatsoever. mr. belin. well, on friday you and i met for the first time in dallas--that would be on march th. mr. brennan. right. mr. belin. and we sat down and i asked you just to tell me what happened, is that correct? mr. brennan. that is right. mr. belin. did i ask you a general question and say, "what happened?" or did i just ask you repeated questions? mr. brennan. no. well, you more or less told me to tell it in my own way exactly what happened. mr. belin. and you just started to tell it, is that correct? mr. brennan. yes. i believe that sums it up. mr. belin. and then we then went outside where you pointed out the place where you were sitting? mr. brennan. yes. mr. belin. do you remember the doctor that examined your eyes when you had them examined? mr. brennan. he is in port lavaca. he is the only leading optometrist there. mr. belin. would it be dr. howard r. bonar? mr. brennan. that is right. how did you find that out? mr. berlin. well, sir, it is on one of your interviews here. mr. brennan. had that question been asked me before? mr. belin. yes, it had. on november , when you advised that you wore glasses for reading purposes only. mr. brennan. that is right, the fbi, mr. lish, right? mr. belin. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. that examination was before the sand blasting, of course. mr. brennan. oh, yes, sir. the sandblasting wasn't until january or early february of this year. representative ford. did you have your glasses on at the time of the assassination? mr. brennan. no. mr. mccloy. you can see better at that distance without your glasses than with them? mr. brennan. oh, yes, much better. oh, i could put these glasses on and it is just like looking through a window pane. the upper part is just regular clear. mr. dulles. do you have some questions, mr. mccloy? mr. mccloy. yes; i have some questions. you said you went across the street after having sort of jumped off this retaining wall in order to protect yourself against the possible fusilade of shots. mr. brennan. right. mr. mccloy. then you went across and picked up a police officer, is that right? mr. brennan. right, sir. mr. mccloy. and then you went with him to the steps of the texas school book depository? mr. brennan. eventually, yes. mr. mccloy. how long did it take you, do you think, from the time of the--when you first got up--from the time of the last shot, how long would you estimate it would be before you got to the steps of the texas book depository? mr. brennan. i could not calculate that, because before i got to the steps of the texas book store, i had already talked to this officer, and he had taken me to the secret service men, i had talked to them. mr. mccloy. and you stayed behind the retaining wall for a little while until you saw the coast was clear? mr. brennan. just seconds. i would say from the time the last shot was fired, and me diving off the wall there, and getting around on the solid side, and then running across to the officer, the time element is hard to figure, but it would still be in seconds. mr. mccloy. then when you got to the officer he took you to a secret service man, and then the secret service man and you were on the steps of the depository? mr. brennan. yes. well, we talked at the car, and then when these two colored guys came down the stairway onto the street, i pointed to them, and identified them as being the two that was in the floor below that floor. and then mr. sorrels, i think, had to give some orders to someone in the book store. he walked me up the steps, and i stood on the top landing. mr. mccloy. when you were standing on those steps, did you see anyone pass you, or anyone that you could recognize as being--as looking somewhat like the man that you had seen in the window with the rifle? mr. brennan. no, i did not. mr. dulles. did you give any estimate--was it a matter of minutes, minutes, minutes? in general, how long did it take you from the time that you left where you were protecting yourself to the time you were on the front steps? what order of magnitude? minutes? mr. brennan. no; it was a shorter time than that. i talked to mr. sorrels--i believe it was mr. sorrels--and the secret service men there--i don't believe i talked to them more than to minutes. mr. mccloy. but you had prior to that time talked to the police officer? mr. brennan. yes. mr. mccloy. you said the police officer said, "wait a minute." mr. brennan. yes. mr. mccloy. how long was that? mr. brennan. that was quick, too. he gave his orders to some one on that side of the building, and then he had taken me to the secret service man. mr. mccloy. did you have the feeling that the police had put a cordon around the building, and were they keeping people in, or were people coming in and out while you were there? mr. brennan. well, i did, by the time i got on the steps of the texas book store--i felt like that the place was completely surrounded and blocked by then. but at the time i ran across to this officer, i may have been completely wrong, they may have--the secret service men and police department, too, may have been directing their search to the building, but i felt as though they were directing their search to the west side of the building. mr. mccloy. you testified, i believe, that you saw them directing their search towards the wrong side of the building, so to speak? mr. brennan. yes. that was my thoughts. mr. mccloy. and so that would indicate that at that time they were not blocking that particular entrance at the east side of the building, below the window that you saw the shot fired from? mr. brennan. not according to my calculations. mr. dulles. any other questions? representative ford. mr. chairman, i would suggest that perhaps in the case of mr. brennan and other witnesses, if a biography prepared by the individual, looked over by the staff, would not be helpful to include in the record--i don't mean a biography in great depth, but at least an outline of the individual's background--i think it would be helpful for the record. mr. dulles. we have certain information. mr. belin. we have certain information in the record right now which we took at the very beginning of the session here this morning. representative ford. yes, i was present. but i think it is important to have more of a background of his education, experience, and i think it is wise to have it for all of the witnesses--not in great depth, but at least a background to show some biographical information. mr. belin. would you care to have that prepared by the witness himself, or here in the record? representative ford. i would suggest that it be prepared initially by the witness, checked over by the staff, and then mutually agreed as acceptable through the witness, and then insert it in the record. mr. dulles. prior to his testimony? representative ford. yes. mr. belin. would you be willing to furnish us with some kind of an autobiographical sketch of yourself--your date and place of birth, where you went to school, your education, your jobs that you have had, and perhaps it also should include some kind of a physical description as to your approximate height and weight and what-have-you? mr. brennan. not at all. but you sure going to be confused on my jobs, sir. mr. belin. because you have gone from one job to another? mr. brennan. well, i worked under the union constitution for the last years, and i have worked for many a contractor. mr. belin. you mean you just work on contract, and when you are through with that particular construction job, the union would send you to another construction job? mr. brennan. yes. usually a contractor wants me to go to the state of washington, like i did in california, or he wants me to go to utah or somewhere like that. mr. dulles. i don't think we need all that detail. mr. belin. in other words, you have been a steamfitter. mr. brennan. yes, sir. with the exception of the possibility of years i was in business in california, private business. mr. mccloy. are you a member of a church? mr. brennan. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. what church are you a member of? mr. brennan. baptist. mr. mccloy. you testified you were a bible reader. mr. brennan. well, i don't read it as much as i should. mr. mccloy. when you do, you have to wear glasses? mr. brennan. yes, sir. mr. dulles. any other questions? mr. belin. there have been two or three other questions that have come up here, sir. one question--when we visited on friday in dallas, what is the fact as to whether or not i told you what to say or you yourself just told me what you wanted to tell me? mr. brennan. i told you--you did not instruct me what to say at all. i told you in the best words i could to explain exactly my movements and what happened. representative ford. and here today you have testified freely on your own? mr. brennan. right, i have. mr. dulles. anything you would like to add? mr. belin. one other question, sir. for the record, would you repeat what i would say would be a full statement of the reasons which caused you to state in your december interview to the fbi that you had always been convinced that the man you saw in the lineup was the man you saw firing the rifle, whereas on november d you declined to give positive identification. could you give all of the reasons, please? mr. brennan. well, as i previously have said, i had saw the man in the window and i had saw him on television. he looked much younger on television than he did from my picture of him in the window--not much younger, but a few years younger--say years younger. and then i felt that my family could be in danger, and i, myself, might be in danger. and since they already had the man for murder, that he wasn't going to be set free to escape and get out of the country immediately, and i could very easily sooner than the fbi or the secret service wanted me, my testimony in, i could very easily get in touch with them, if they didn't get in touch with me, and to see that the man didn't get loose. representative ford. when you got home, about o'clock, on november d, that is when you did get home---- mr. brennan. yes. representative ford. was your wife there? mr. brennan. yes. representative ford. did you and your wife discuss any aspects of the assassination and your being present, more or less, at the scene of the assassination? mr. brennan. yes; we discussed it. we talked--i talked of moving her and my grandson, which was living with us at that time and my daughter--moving them out of town somewhere in secrecy. representative ford. why did you talk about moving your wife and your grandson out of town on this afternoon on november d? mr. brennan. because i had already more or less given a detailed description of the man, and i talked to the secret service and gave them my statement, and they had convinced me that it would be strictly confidential and all that. but still i felt like if i was the only eyewitness, that anything could happen to me or my family. so that was just about the length of our discussion of it. she seemed to think that a person can't get away--wherever they go. representative ford. did you talk to anybody else between p.m., november d and the time when one of the law enforcement agents came out and picked you up that day? mr. brennan. not to tell--not to give any information out. my wife and i went to the bank in mesquite that evening, and my daughter was at home. and i told her if anyone called to first have them identify themselves, and find out the nature of their business that they wanted me for, and if it was the fbi or the secret service, to tell them where they could contact me. and so we were in the bank, i believe, talking to the vice president that evening. my daughter called and said mr. sorrels had called, and that he had requested her to get the word to me to call him. and she called me at the bank, and then i asked the secretary to get the number for me. and i called mr. sorrels, and mr. sorrels told me there would be a man to pick me up at o'clock promptly. representative ford. p.m., november d. mr. brennan. yes; that is right. representative ford. and he did pick you up, and you did go down to the police station? mr. brennan. yes, sir. mr. belin. when you got back from the police station, did you have any further conversation with your wife about what you saw in the police station? mr. brennan. yes. but i don't believe i explained to her full details. she probably remembers whether i did or not, but i don't. i believe i just told her that i would not identify, make positive identification. i believe that is all i told her. mr. belin. that you would not, or that you could not? mr. brennan. i believe i told her i would not. mr. belin. do you remember the specific color of any shirt that the man with the rifle was wearing? mr. brennan. no, other than light, and a khaki color--maybe in khaki. i mean other than light color--not a real white shirt, in other words. if it was a white shirt, it was on the dingy side. mr. belin. i am handing you what the court reporter has marked as commission exhibit . does this look like it might or might not be the shirt, or can you make at this time any positive identification of any kind? mr. brennan. i would have expected it to be a little lighter--a shade or so lighter. mr. belin. than exhibit ? mr. brennan. that is the best of my recollection. mr. belin. all right. could you see the man's trousers at all? do you remember any color? mr. brennan. i remembered them at that time as being similar to the same color of the shirt or a little lighter. and that was another thing that i called their attention to at the lineup. mr. belin. what do you mean by that? mr. brennan. that he was not dressed in the same clothes that i saw the man in the window. mr. belin. you mean with reference to the trousers or the shirt? mr. brennan. well, not particularly either. in other words, he just didn't have the same clothes on. mr. belin. all right. mr. brennan. i don't know whether you have that in the record or not. i am sure you do. mr. dulles. any further questions? i guess there are no more questions, mr. belin. mr. belin. well, sir, we want to thank you for your cooperation with the commission. mr. dulles. thank you very much for coming here. testimony of bonnie ray williams mr. belin. our next witness is mr. bonnie ray williams. mr. dulles. mr. williams, the purpose of the hearing today is to take the testimony of you and certain others whose names are mentioned here. you and the other witnesses were all in the vicinity of the texas school book depository building at the time of the assassination of president john f. kennedy. you will be asked to provide the commission with your knowledge of the facts concerning the assassination of president kennedy. mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. dulles. would you rise, sir? do your swear that the evidence you will give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. williams. yes, i do. mr. ball. mr. williams, how old are you? mr. williams. i am years old. mr. ball. where do you live? mr. williams. i live in dallas, tex. mr. ball. what is your address? mr. williams. avenue b, apartment b. mr. ball. are you married? mr. williams. yes, i am. mr. ball. where were you born? mr. williams. i was born in carthage, tex. mr. ball. did you go to school in texas? mr. williams. yes, i did. mr. ball. how far through school? mr. williams. all the way. mr. ball. graduated from high school? mr. williams. yes. mr. ball. where? mr. williams. marshall, tex., and i finished high school summer course in dallas, texas, madison high. mr. ball. what year did you get out of high school? mr. williams. . mr. ball. and where did you go to work after that? mr. williams. i went to work at marriott's motor hotel. mr. ball. what did you do there? mr. williams. well, i started off as a dishwasher. then they put me on as a fry cook. mr. ball. and how long did you stay there? mr. williams. about or months. mr. ball. then where did you go to work? mr. williams. i went to work at union terminal building, baggage department. mr. ball. how long did you work there? mr. williams. i worked there about a year. mr. ball. what kind of work did you do there? mr. williams. i was a mail separator. mr. ball. then where did you go? mr. williams. then i found this job at the texas school book depository. mr. ball. when did you get that job? mr. williams. around about september th. mr. ball. what year? mr. williams. . mr. ball. how did you happen to go there to get the job? mr. williams. well, my wife was expecting, and i just wanted a day job--i was working at night. so i just went looking for a day job, and i happened to come down that way. mr. dulles. were you going to school in the daytime? mr. williams. no. mr. dulles. this is after you finished school? mr. williams. all this took place after i finished school. mr. ball. you finished school when? mr. williams. . mr. ball. and you had these three---- mr. williams. yes, sir; and i had a part-time job at a construction company. i don't remember the name of it. but it was just for about a week. mr. ball. when you were going to school? mr. williams. no. that was the same time i was working at marriott's motel. mr. ball. did you work while you went to school? mr. williams. i delivered the dallas morning newspaper sometimes, and little odd jobs. mr. ball. well, did anybody tell you you might get a job at the texas school book depository before you went down there? mr. williams. no, sir. mr. ball. you were just looking for a job? mr. williams. i just put in applications everywhere. mr. ball. what kind of work did you do when you first went with the texas school book depository? mr. williams. i think the first day i started work there they started me off as a wrapper. then the fellows told me that i had qualifications to be a checker, so they put me on as a checker there. mr. ball. what are you doing now? mr. williams. at the present time i do anything--check, pack, fill orders, anything. mr. ball. when you went to work there, did you work at the building on the corner of houston and elm? mr. williams. no, sir. the first time i went there i was hired on at the other warehouse, the lower part of houston street. mr. ball. by lower part, do you mean north of the main building? mr. williams. yes, sir. down further, the big white building. mr. ball. that is sort of a warehouse? mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. ball. you went to work there. that is about a block, a block and a half north? mr. williams. a block and a half. mr. ball. north of the corner of houston and elm? mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. ball. and how long did you work at that place? mr. williams. well, i worked there until business began to get slow. i think that was--it was before november. i think it was some time during october. i am not sure. mr. ball. and what did they put you to work at at that time? mr. williams. they called me up to help lay a floor on the fifth floor, they wanted more boards over it. as i say, business was slow, and they were trying to keep us on without laying us off at the time. so i was using the saw, helping cut wood and lay wood. mr. ball. you were laying a wood floor over the old floor? mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. ball. on the fifth floor? mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. ball. and when you finished on the fifth floor, what did you do? mr. williams. after we finished on the fifth floor, we started to move up to the sixth floor. but at the time we didn't complete the sixth floor. we only completed just a little portion of it. mr. ball. by the time, you are talking about november d? mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. ball. before november d, how long had you been laying floor in the building at houston and elm? mr. williams. before november d, i think we had been working on the fifth floor, i think, about weeks. i think altogether i had been up there just about weeks, i think. mr. ball. and how long had you been on the sixth floor before--how long have you been working on the sixth floor before november d? mr. williams. let's see. before november d, i think it might have been days--it might have been days. i would say about days, approximately days. mr. ball. before you started to lay the floor, did you have to move any cartons? mr. williams. yes; we did. mr. ball. from what part of the sixth floor did you move the cartons? mr. williams. we moved cartons from, i believe, the west side of the sixth floor to the east side of the sixth floor, because i think there was a vacancy in there. mr. ball. clear over to the east side? mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. ball. were there cartons stacked up between the west side and the east side--were there cartons on the floor? mr. williams. yes; there was. mr. ball. after you moved the cartons, then did you start laying the floor? mr. williams. after we moved the cartons, we started laying the floor. then we had to move the cartons. as we go we would move cartons to vacate the space, so we could lay the floor. mr. ball. on november d, what time did you go to work? mr. williams. november d, i went to work at o'clock. mr. ball. were you late or on time that morning? mr. williams. i believe i was on time that morning. i always get there a little before eight. mr. ball. did you know lee oswald, lee harvey oswald? mr. williams. i didn't know him personally, but i had seen him working. never did say anything to anyone. he never did put himself in any position to say anything to anyone. he just went about his work. he never said anything to me. i never said anything to him. mr. ball. did you ever have lunch with him? mr. williams. no. the only time he would come into the lunchroom sometimes and eat a sandwich maybe, and then he would go for a walk, and he would go out. and i assume he would come back. but the only other time he would come in and read a paper or nothing, and laugh and leave again. mr. dulles. but he would never say good morning or good evening? mr. williams. he never would speak to anyone. he was just a funny fellow. i don't know what kind of a fellow he was. mr. ball. did you notice what he read in the newspaper? mr. williams. i believe one morning i noticed he was reading something about politics, and as he was reading this he acted like it was funny to him. he would read a paragraph or two, smile, or laugh, then throw the paper down and get up and walk out. representative ford. where did this go on? mr. williams. this was going on in what we call the domino room. this is where we would eat our lunch and play dominoes. some fellow would bring newspapers, to read the sports or something. he never would read the sports. mr. ball. the domino room is a little recreation room on the first floor? mr. williams. yes; it is. mr. ball. now, you see the map there which has been marked commission exhibit . will you point on that map the location of the domino room? mr. dulles. would it be easier if we put the map up there, and then everybody could see. mr. williams. in the front entrance--i could explain the way i know the best. as i said, this would be the main entrance from elm street. well, this would be--the domino room is in the same line with mr. shelley's office, and mr. truly's office. the domino room would be right in here. because two bathrooms, a large one and a small one right in this vicinity here. mr. ball. that is marked on the map--the domino room is marked on the map as rec room, and the toilet is shown there? mr. williams. yes, sir. and there is a small one on the other side. mr. ball. that is on exhibit . mr. dulles. what floor is this we are looking at now? mr. williams. that is the first floor. representative ford. and it was in the rec room or domino room where you saw oswald read the paper on this occasion? mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. dulles. and you said he read some of it to you and smiled about it? mr. williams. no; he didn't read it to me. we were waiting turns to play dominoes, and i happened to glance over. and i just noticed what he was reading. mr. ball. now, this morning, did you see oswald on the floor at any time? mr. williams. this morning of november d? mr. ball. d. mr. williams. the morning of november d oswald was on the floor. the only time i saw him that morning was a little after eight, after i had started working. as usual, he was walking around with a clipboard in his hands, i believe he was. mr. ball. that is on the first floor? mr. williams. yes. he had a clipboard in his hand. mr. ball. that is the only time you saw him that morning? mr. williams. that is the only time i saw him that morning. i saw him again between : and maybe until : . mr. ball. we will come to that in a moment. where did you work that morning? mr. williams. that morning i worked on the sixth floor. i think we went directly up to the sixth floor and i got there. mr. ball. and how many were working on the sixth floor with you? mr. williams. i believe there were five. mr. ball. what are their names? mr. williams. well, bill shelley, charles givens, and there was a fellow by the name of danny arce. mr. ball. he is a mexican boy? mr. williams. yes. and a fellow by the name of billy lovelady, and myself. and there was a fellow that came up--his name was harold norman. he really wasn't working at the time, but there wasn't anything to do, he would come around to help a little bit, and then back down. mr. dulles. was he in the employ of the company? mr. williams. yes; he had been working there at the time about years, i think. mr. dulles. but he wasn't on this particular detail on the sixth floor that you are speaking of? mr. williams. well, he had been helping us on the fifth floor. when the orders would come in, he would go down and help with the orders, and when he didn't have anything else to do he would come back and help us move stock around. i think that was him. mr. ball. what part of the sixth floor were you working that morning? mr. williams. on the west side. mr. ball. were you moving stock or laying floor that morning? mr. williams. we were doing both. mr. ball. you were doing both? mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. ball. the west side of the sixth floor--you mean the whole west side, or was there a certain part--northwest or southwest or middle? mr. williams. i believe it was the whole west side, because we had to go from window to window--from the elevator to the front window facing elm street--we were laying the floor parallel. mr. ball. did you see oswald on the sixth floor that morning? mr. williams. i am not sure. i think i saw him once messing around with some cartons or something, back over the east side of the building. but he wasn't in the window that they said he shot the president from. he was more on the east side of the elevator, i think, messing around with cartons, because he always just messed around, kicking cartons around. mr. ball. what was his job? mr. williams. his job was an order filler. mr. ball. what do you mean by that? mr. williams. i mean by that an order filler--when orders come in for the state schools mostly, from austin, he would take the orders and fill the orders. if the orders called for a certain amount of books, he would fill that order, and turn it in to be checked, to be shipped out. mr. ball. you say he would fill the order. he would go and get books? mr. williams. he would get books. as an order filler you had access to all the floors, all seven floors. mr. ball. and were the cartons that you are talking about containers of books? mr. williams. yes, they were. mr. ball. would a checker--would an order filler go to the different floors and take books out of cartons? mr. williams. yes, sir. the order filler would have to, in order to fill the order--he would have to move around to each floor, and take the books that he needs. mr. ball. then where would he take the books? mr. williams. down to the first floor. mr. ball. and what was on the first floor? mr. williams. the first floor is where the checkers, the freight, and all--they are checking the books to go out, and also where they wrap the books. mr. ball. and were there certain men down there wrapping books? mr. williams. certain men wrapping, checking, weighing, et cetera. mr. dulles. did you have a schedule somewhere posted up so that you knew which books were on which floor when an order came in? you would know whether to go to the sixth floor or what floor to go to get the particular books that were wanted? mr. williams. well, as i remember, i don't know too much about the building. mr. dulles. you were not in the order filling business? mr. williams. no, sir; not in that department. at the other building. i was just transferred to that building. i don't think you really had any schedule to go by, or anything to show you where the books were. you just asked the older fellows that had been there were certain books--if you are looking for a certain book, they would tell you where to find it. mr. ball. this morning, when you think you saw oswald on the sixth floor, can you tell us about where he was? mr. williams. well, as i said before, i am not sure that he was really on the sixth floor. but he was always around that way. in the place i think i saw him was as the east elevator come up to the sixth floor, he was on that side of the elevator. mr. ball. i have here a diagram of the sixth floor which i will have marked as exhibit . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. ball. first of all, this is houston street, and the top is north--east and west. here is elm street. mr. williams. this would be the east elevator. mr. ball. this is the east elevator, west elevator and the stairway. now, can you take this and show us about where your men were working laying floor on that sixth floor? mr. williams. i would say---- mr. ball. first of all, you take this pencil and put it down there, and then we will make the markings afterwards. mr. williams. this is the west side of the building. mr. ball. the area where you were laying floor. make the outside limits of the area. mr. williams. we were working in this area down there like that. mr. ball. in other words, from there to the west, or where? mr. williams. we were working from the west coming this way, coming to the east. and we had got about just so much. mr. ball. well, let's draw a dark line down there. this marks the area that you saw? mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. ball. you had already laid floor from the west side to the dark line? mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. ball. and you were working right around in the dark line area, were you? mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. ball. that morning? mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. ball. now, take your pencil and show us about where it was that you saw oswald that morning. mr. williams. i think i saw oswald somewhere around in this vicinity. as i was up by this other elevator, i think one time i saw him over there. i am not really sure. mr. ball. you have drawn a line here. this is a sort of general area where you say you saw oswald, is that right? mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. ball. we will mark that as "o". that is on the north side of the floor near the east elevator. mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. ball. we will mark that "o". now, these lines you have marked show your area where you were working. mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. ball. we will mark that w- and w- . mr. dulles. mr. williams, were all the boxes of books moved out of this area while you were working, or as you finished a part of it, were some boxes put back in? mr. williams. to begin with, i think we were working on the wall first. i don't think we moved too many books in this area. i think we just moved them out and right back in, as i remember. but i think after we got a little further over, i think we had to move some books. we had to move these books to the east side of this building, over here, and those books--i would say this would be the window oswald shot the president from. we moved these books kind of like in a row like that, kind of winding them around. mr. dulles. that is moving them from the west towards the east of the building? mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. the window was here? mr. ball. that is right. mr. dulles. any other questions on this? mr. ball. about what time of day do you think it was you saw oswald, if you can remember? if you can't remember, don't guess. mr. williams. i cannot remember. mr. ball. what time did you knock off work for the lunch hour? mr. williams. well, approximately--between : to , around in there. i wouldn't say the exact time, because i don't remember the exact time. mr. ball. what time do you usually quit for lunch? mr. williams. we always quit about minutes before time. during the rush season we quit about minutes before time and washup. mr. ball. wash your hands and face before you eat lunch? mr. williams. that is right. mr. ball. you say quit minutes before time. what is the time? mr. williams. five before . mr. ball. did you quit earlier this day? mr. williams. i believe this day we quit about maybe or minutes, because all of us were so anxious to see the president--we quit a little ahead of time, so that we could wash up and we wanted to be sure we would not miss anything. mr. ball. now, did you go downstairs? mr. williams. we took two elevators down. i mean, speaking as a group, we took two down. mr. ball. was there some reason you took two down? mr. williams. we always had a little kids game we played racing down with the elevators. and i think one fellow, charles givens, had the east elevator, and me, and i think two or three more fellows had the west elevator. and we was racing down. mr. ball. who was driving the west side elevator? mr. williams. i don't remember exactly who was. mr. ball. you were not? mr. williams. i don't think i was. i don't remember. mr. ball. who was driving the east side elevator? mr. williams. i think that was charles givens. mr. ball. now, did something happen on the way down--did somebody yell out? mr. williams. yes; on the way down i heard oswald--and i am not sure whether he was on the fifth or the sixth floor. but on the way down oswald hollered "guys, how about an elevator?" i don't know whether those are his exact words. but he said something about the elevator. and charles said, "come on, boy," just like that. and he said, "close the gate on the elevator and send the elevator back up." i don't know what happened after that. representative ford. had the elevator gone down below the floor from which he yelled? mr. williams. yes; i believe it was. i assume it was the fifth or the sixth. the reason i could not tell whether it was the sixth or the fifth is because i was on the opposite elevator, and if you are not thinking about it it is kind of hard to judge which floor, if you started moving. representative ford. the elevator did not go back up to the floor from which he yelled? mr. williams. no, sir. mr. dulles. did he ask the gate be closed on the elevator? mr. williams. i think he asked charles givens--i think he said, "close the gate on the elevator, or send one of the elevators back up." i think that is what he said. mr. mccloy. that is in order that he would have an elevator to come down when he wanted to come down? mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. ball. on the d of november , you talked to two fbi agents according to the record i have here, bardwell odum and will griffin, and they reported that you said that as they were going down, that you saw lee on the fifth floor. mr. williams. i told him the fifth or the sixth. i told him i wasn't sure about it. mr. ball. and were you sure at that time? mr. williams. about which floor it was? mr. ball. yes. mr. williams. no; i wasn't. mr. ball. are you sure today? mr. williams. i am not sure today. mr. ball. but you think it was the fifth or the sixth floor? mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. ball. are you sure it was oswald you talked to? mr. williams. i am sure it was oswald. i didn't talk to him. mr. ball. but you heard him? mr. williams. i heard him. mr. ball. you went down to the first floor. what did you do? mr. williams. we went down to the first floor. i think the first thing i did, i washed up, then i went into the domino room where i kept my lunch, and i got my lunch, came back out and went back up. mr. ball. did you carry your lunch that day? mr. williams. yes; i did. mr. ball. do you usually carry your lunch to work? mr. williams. yes; i do. mr. ball. that was your habit, carrying your lunch? mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. ball. and that day, on november d, how did you carry your lunch from home to work? mr. williams. i carried my lunch from home to work in a brown paper bag. i believe it was size no. or maybe --paper bag. mr. ball. number or size paper bag? mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. ball. small bag? mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. ball. like you get in the grocery store? mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. ball. what did you have in your lunch? mr. williams. i had a chicken sandwich. mr. ball. describe the sandwich. what did it have in it besides chicken? mr. williams. well, it just had chicken in it. chicken on the bone. mr. ball. chicken on the bone? mr. williams. yes. mr. ball. the chicken was not boned? mr. williams. it was just chicken on the bone. just plain old chicken. mr. ball. did it have bread around it? mr. williams. yes, it did. mr. ball. before you went upstairs, did you get anything to drink? mr. williams. i got a small bottle of dr. pepper from the dr. pepper machine. mr. ball. did you have anything else in your lunch besides chicken? mr. williams. i had a bag of fritos, i believe it was. mr. ball. anything else? mr. williams. no; i believe that was all. mr. ball. you say you went back upstairs. where did you go? mr. williams. i went back up to the sixth floor. mr. ball. why did you go to the sixth floor? mr. williams. well, at the time everybody was talking like they was going to watch from the sixth floor. i think billy lovelady said he wanted to watch from up there. and also my friend; this spanish boy, by the name of danny arce, we had agreed at first to come back up to the sixth floor. so i thought everybody was going to be on the sixth floor. mr. ball. did anybody go back? mr. williams. nobody came back up. so i just left. mr. ball. where did you eat your lunch? mr. williams. i ate my lunch--i am not sure about this, but the third or the fourth set of windows, i believe. mr. ball. facing on what street? mr. williams. facing elm street. mr. mccloy. what floor? mr. williams. sixth floor. mr. dulles. you ate your lunch on the sixth floor? mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. dulles. and you were all alone? mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. ball. what did you sit on while you ate your lunch? mr. williams. first of all, i remember there was some boxes behind me. i just kind of leaned back on the boxes first. then i began to get a little impatient, because there wasn't anyone coming up. so i decided to move to a two-wheeler. mr. ball. a two-wheeler truck, you mean? mr. williams. yes, sir. i remember sitting on this two-wheeler. by that time, i was through, and i got up and i just left then. mr. dulles. how much of the room could you see as you finished your lunch there? was your view obstructed by boxes of books, or could you see a good bit of the sixth floor? mr. williams. well, at the time i couldn't see too much of the sixth floor, because the books at the time were stacked so high. i could see only in the path that i was standing--as i remember, i could not possibly see anything to the east side of the building. but just one aisle, the aisle i was standing in i could see just about to the west side of the building. so far as seeing to the east and behind me, i could only see down the aisle behind me and the aisle to the west of me. representative ford. have you ever had any trouble with the law at all? mr. williams. no, sir. representative ford. no difficulty as far as the law is concerned? mr. williams. i have never been inside of a courthouse before. mr. ball. i have an exhibit here marked . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. ball. do you recognize that? mr. williams. yes, sir; i recognize that. mr. ball. what do you see? mr. williams. i see a two-wheeler, a dr. pepper bottle, and some boxes in the windows. mr. ball. and is that anywhere near where you were sitting? mr. williams. yes, sir; that is the exact place i was sitting. mr. ball. that is the two-wheeler you were sitting on? mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. ball. now, when you were on the two-wheeler, as you were sitting there, did you have a view, could you see down towards the southeast corner? mr. williams. no, sir; i couldn't see anything as i remember there. about the only thing that i could see from there would be just the top edge of the window, because the boxes were stacked up. mr. ball. the boxes were stacked up high? mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. ball. let me show you another picture here. mr. dulles. you are not introducing that at this time? mr. ball. i will. i am going to introduce them all. let's go back to the diagram, which is . could you mark on this diagram the window that is shown in this picture --that is, the place where you were sitting and eating your lunch? mr. williams. that would be facing elm street. i would say right around in this. mr. ball. in other words, you are marking here something between--some area between the third and the fourth window. mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. ball. you are not able to tell exactly? mr. williams. no; i am not. mr. ball. the witness has drawn a red rectangle to show the approximate area which runs from about the center of the second row of windows from the southeast corner over to about the fourth pane of windows. mr. williams. i would say about right in here, third or fourth. mr. ball. third or fourth? mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. ball. now, you have made two marks, so i will identify the last mark. between the third and fourth, is that right? mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. ball. we will mark the rectangle, and we will mark it "w- " and "w- " the end of the lines. mr. mccloy. what time of day was this, when you were eating your lunch? mr. williams. about . mr. mccloy. just ? mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. ball. now, as you looked towards the southeast corner from where you were sitting, could you see the windows in the southeast corner? mr. williams. in the southeast--that is--the southeast. i really don't remember if i seen anything--it would be just the top edge of the window, as i remember. mr. ball. did you see anyone else up there that day? mr. williams. no, i did not. mr. ball. how long did you stay there? mr. williams. i was there from-- , , maybe minutes. mr. ball. finish your lunch? mr. williams. yes, sir. no longer than it took me to finish the chicken sandwich. mr. ball. did you eat the chicken? mr. williams. yes, i did. mr. ball. where did you put the bones? mr. williams. i don't remember exactly, but i think i put some of them back in the sack. just as i was ready to go i threw the sack down. mr. ball. what did you do with the sack? mr. williams. i think i just dropped it there. mr. ball. anywhere near the two-wheeler? mr. williams. i think it was. mr. ball. what did you do with the dr. pepper bottle? mr. williams. just set it down on the floor. mr. ball. there is a pop bottle that you see in the picture, --does that look like anything like the pop bottle that you were drinking from that day? mr. williams. i believe that was the bottle--i believe. i am not sure. but it looks like it. mr. ball. did you leave the bottle somewhere near the point shown of the bottle shown on ? mr. williams. i am really not sure about it. i don't think i left it there. i am not sure. i think i left it sitting up on top of the boxes, right to the side of the two-wheeler. as i remember--i am not sure about it. it is possible that i could have put it there. mr. ball. your memory is that the dr. pepper bottle was left on top of the boxes? mr. williams. beg pardon? mr. ball. your memory is that you left the dr. pepper bottle on top of some of the cartons? mr. williams. as i remember. i am not sure. mr. ball. it is shown there on the floor. mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. ball. where did you go when you left there? mr. williams. i went down to the fifth floor. mr. ball. how did you get down there? mr. williams. i took an elevator down. mr. ball. you didn't go down the stairs? mr. williams. no, sir. mr. ball. which elevator did you take? mr. williams. i took the east elevator down. mr. ball. is that the one that is worked with a hand---- mr. williams. yes, sir. that is the one with the one gate, and works with the hand pedal. mr. ball. how does the other one work? mr. williams. the other one worked by push button. you have two gates to pull. that is the one you can pull two gates on and it will come back up by itself. the east side elevator won't come up unless someone is operating. mr. ball. you took the elevator from the sixth floor to the fifth floor? mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. ball. where did you intend to go when you left the sixth floor? mr. williams. i intended to stop on the fifth floor, and if there wasn't anyone there, i intended to get out of the building, go outside. mr. ball. well, you stopped on the fifth floor. why? mr. williams. beg pardon? mr. ball. why did you stop on the fifth floor? mr. williams. to see if there was anyone there. mr. ball. did you know there was anyone there before you started down? mr. williams. well, i thought i heard somebody walking, the windows moving or something. i said maybe someone is down there, i said to myself. and i just went on down. mr. ball. did you find anybody there? mr. williams. as i remember, when i was walking up, i think harold norman and james jarman--as i remember, they was down facing the elm street on the fifth floor, as i remember. mr. ball. now, i want to call your attention to another report i have here. on the d of november , the report of mr. odum and mr. griffin, fbi agents, is that you told them that you went from the sixth floor to the fifth floor using the stairs at the west end of the building. did you tell them that? mr. williams. i didn't tell them i was using the stairs. i came back down to the fifth floor in the same elevator i came up to the sixth floor on. mr. ball. you did? mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. ball. now, also, on january th, did you remember talking to a couple of agents named carter and griffin? mr. williams. i can't remember their names, but i am sure i did. mr. ball. you talked to a good many of them? mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. ball. well, they reported here that you went down to the fifth floor, and you did so by going down on the west elevator. mr. williams. the east elevator. the reason i was able to determine whether it was the east elevator is because i think when you questioned us the other day, the other fellows--i told you i didn't remember which elevator first. but the other fellows said they had the west elevator. there are only two elevators. if they are sure they had the west elevator up, that only leaves the east elevator. mr. ball. when you got to the fifth floor and left the elevator, at that time were both elevators on the fifth floor? mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. ball. both west and east? mr. williams. yes, sir, as i remember. mr. ball. the other day, when i talked to you in dallas, on friday march---- mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. ball. and at that time were you able--did you remember which elevator it was? mr. williams. which elevator i had? mr. ball. what you had come down from six to five on. mr. williams. as i remember, i first said i wasn't sure. after the fellows said they brought the west elevator up, i said i must have the east elevator. mr. ball. is it fair to say now that you don't have any definite memory as to whether it was the east or west elevator? mr. williams. yes, sir. i believe that would be true. mr. ball. but you did bring an elevator up? mr. williams. yes, sir; i did. mr. ball. now, when you came down there and got off that elevator, did you notice that the other elevator was also on that floor? mr. williams. well, at the time i didn't notice it. mr. ball. did you, later? mr. williams. no, sir; as i remember. mr. ball. you don't remember? mr. williams. no, sir; i don't remember. mr. ball. when you got off the elevator, you went over to the front of the building, the elm street side. mr. williams. yes, sir; i did. mr. ball. and you saw norman and---- mr. dulles. mr. ball, could we get the time element? mr. ball. i am going to bring that in. mr. dulles. all right. i will bide my time. mr. ball. you went over to the front of the building, did you? mr. williams. yes. mr. ball. and you saw your two friends, norman and jarman? mr. williams. yes. mr. ball. you had known them before? mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. ball. now, do you know what time that was? mr. williams. i do not know the exact time. mr. ball. it was---- mr. williams. it was after i had left the sixth floor, after i had eaten the chicken sandwich. i finished the chicken sandwich maybe or minutes after . i could say approximately what time it was. mr. ball. approximately what time was it? mr. williams. approximately : , maybe. mr. ball. well, now, when you talked to the fbi on the d day of november, you said that you went up to the sixth floor about noon with your lunch, and you stayed only about minutes, and seeing no one you came down to the fifth floor, using the stairs at the west end of the building. now, do you think you stayed longer than minutes up there? mr. williams. i am sure i stayed longer than minutes. mr. ball. do you remember telling the fbi you only stayed minutes up there? mr. williams. i do not remember telling them i only stayed minutes. mr. ball. and then on this th of january , when you talked to carter and griffin, they reported that you told them you went down to the fifth floor around : p.m., and that around : p.m. you were watching the presidential parade. now, do you remember telling them you went down there about : p.m.? mr. williams. i remember telling the fellows that--they asked me first, they said, "how long did it take you to finish the sandwich?" i said, "maybe to minutes, maybe minutes." just like i said here. i don't remember saying for a definite answer that it was minutes. mr. ball. well, is it fair to say that you do not remember the exact time now? mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. ball. you do remember, though, that you ate your lunch and drank your pop, your doctor pepper, before you came down? mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. ball. were you there any length of time before the presidential parade came by? mr. williams. well, sir, on the fifth floor? mr. ball. on the fifth floor, yes, with your two friends, norman and jarman. mr. williams. i was there a while before it came around. mr. ball. you were at what window? mr. williams. well, i believe we was on the east side of the window, and i think hank was--i think he was directly under the sixth floor window where oswald was supposed to have shot the president from. and i think i was a window over. and i think james jarman was two or three windows over. mr. ball. i will show you a picture here, which is . do you see yourself in that picture? mr. williams. yes, sir; i am right here. mr. ball. all right. draw a dark line down there towards you and put an arrow on the end. i will mark that w; the arrow w on points to you, bonnie ray williams. mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. ball. is that about the way you were sitting in the window? mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. ball. and you were watching the parade? mr. williams. i don't remember whether i was watching the parade here or not. but i was in the window, that window. mr. ball. do you recognize the man in the window to the right of us as we look at the picture? mr. williams. yes, sir; that is harold norman. mr. ball. now, here is another photograph which is , giving more of the front of the building. can you tell us in what window your friend jarman was sitting, or watching? mr. williams. i believe this is james jarman right here. mr. ball. all right. draw a line down to that on . draw an arrow to the window. mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. ball. we will mark that w on . now, were you boys sitting down or standing up? mr. williams. are you referring to the picture? mr. ball. no, i am talking about your memory now as to what you were doing at the time you were watching for the presidential parade. mr. williams. at the time we were watching for the president's parade, i believe i was in a squat position. but i don't remember whether i was on my knees or just squatting on the balls of my feet. mr. ball. when the parade went by, how were you--squatting? mr. williams. as the parade went by, i was in a squat position. mr. ball. last friday you went up to the sixth floor, or the fifth floor with us, and a photographer, and you three men got into position, did you not? mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. ball. to have your pictures taken. mr. williams. yes; we did. mr. ball. i can only ask you about your position. first of all, we will mark this as . (the photograph was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. ball. i will mark this photograph as . (the photograph was marked exhibit no. for identification.) mr. ball. is a picture of three men. you were there when that picture was taken? mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. ball. who are the men who are there? mr. williams. first of all in the corner of the east of the building is harold norman. secondly, the fellow over from me, that would be james jarman. mr. ball. who is the man in the center? mr. williams. that is me. mr. ball. is that about the way you were sitting when you watched the parade? mr. williams. i believe it was at the time. mr. ball. now, i show you and who are the men in that position? mr. williams. in this picture here, --this fellow--the other fellow in the corner, in the east of the building, is harold norman. i am in the window next to him. mr. ball. your back is to the picture? mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. ball. is that about the position you were in when the president's parade went by? mr. williams. i believe it was. mr. ball. now, what do you remember happened when the president's parade went by? mr. williams. well, to the best of my ability, what i remember was first coming off of--i believe it was main street--well, two motorcycle policemen came around. i think it was two or maybe three. they came around first. and then i think the president's car followed. and i believe a car was behind it carrying the vice president, as i remember. i am not sure about it. president kennedy was sitting in the back seat. i believe his wife was in the back seat. i believe governor connally was sitting in the front seat of the car as it was going down the street--i believe---- mr. mccloy. what street are you talking about there? are you talking about main street, houston street, or elm street? mr. williams. first of all, as i say, they was coming off of main street. then as it turned the corner, the corner which i am speaking of, most people refer to it as elm street. but it is not really elm street. i believe it is the start of the turnpike, because elm street runs parallel with the building, but comes to a dead end. mr. ball. did you see the parade come up houston, north on houston? mr. williams. yes, sir; i did. mr. ball. and then you saw it turn to the left in front of your building? mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. ball. now tell us what happened after the president's car had passed your window. mr. williams. after the president's car had passed my window, the last thing i remember seeing him do was, you know--it seemed to me he had a habit of pushing his hair back. the last thing i saw him do was he pushed his hand up like this. i assumed he was brushing his hair back. and then the thing that happened then was a loud shot--first i thought they were saluting the president, somebody--even maybe a motorcycle backfire. the first shot--there was two shots rather close together. the second and the third shot was closer together than the first shot and the second shot, as i remember. mr. ball. now, was your head out the window? mr. williams. i could not say for sure. i do not remember. mr. ball. did you notice--where did you think the shots came from? mr. williams. well, the first shot--i really did not pay any attention to it, because i did not know what was happening. the second shot, it sounded like it was right in the building, the second and third shot. and it sounded--it even shook the building, the side we were on. cement fell on my head. mr. ball. you say cement fell on your head? mr. williams. cement, gravel, dirt, or something, from the old building, because it shook the windows and everything. harold was sitting next to me, and he said it came right from over our head. if you want to know my exact words, i could tell you. mr. ball. tell us. mr. williams. my exact words were, "no bull shit." and we jumped up. mr. ball. norman said what? mr. williams. he said it came directly over our heads. "i can even hear the shell being ejected from the gun hitting the floor." but i did not hear the shell being ejected from the gun, probably because i wasn't paying attention. mr. ball. norman said he could hear it? mr. williams. he said he could hear it. he was directly under the window that oswald shot from. mr. ball. he was directly under. he told you as he got up from the window that he could hear the shells ejected from the gun? mr. williams. yes; he did. mr. ball. after he made the statement that you mentioned, he thought it came from overhead, and you made some statement, did jarman say anything? mr. williams. i think jarman, he--i think he moved before any of us. he moved towards us, and he said, "man, somebody is shooting at the president." and i think i said again. "no bull shit." and then we all kind of got excited, you know, and, as i remember, i don't remember him saying that he thought the shots came from overhead. but we all decided we would run down to the west side of the building. mr. ball. you ran down to the west side of the building? mr. williams. yes, sir. representative ford. ran down to the west side? you mean you were still on the fifth floor? mr. williams. yes; we were on the fifth floor, the east side of the building. we saw the policemen and people running, scared, running--there are some tracks on the west side of the building, railroad tracks. they were running towards that way. and we thought maybe--well, to ourself, we know the shots practically came from over our head. but since everybody was running, you know, to the west side of the building, towards the railroad tracks, we assumed maybe somebody was down there. and so we all ran that way, the way that the people was running, and we was looking out the window. mr. ball. when the cement fell on your head, did either one of the men notice it and say anything about it? mr. williams. yes, sir. i believe harold was the first one. mr. ball. that is hank norman? mr. williams. i believe he was the first one. he said "man, i know it came from there. it even shook the building." he said, "you got something on your head." and then james jarman said, "yes, man, don't you brush it out." by that time i just forgot about it. but after i got downstairs i think i brushed it out anyway. mr. ball. jarman is called junior? mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. ball. well, did norman say anything about hearing the bolt of the rifle? mr. williams. i don't remember him saying anything about it. mr. ball. but you heard him say he could hear the cartridges? mr. williams. i heard harold norman--pardon me, i thought you were saying james jarman. mr. ball. did norman say anything about the bolt? mr. williams. yes. he said he could hear the rifle, and it sounded like it was right above. he said he could hear the rifle being ejected, the shells hitting the floor. mr. ball. but you could not hear this? mr. williams. no; i could not hear it. mr. ball. that was an old floor, wasn't it? mr. williams. yes; it was. mr. ball. could you see light through the floor from the fifth to the sixth floor as you would look above your window? mr. williams. well, at the time, that day of november d, i did not notice that. but the other day when you were questioning me, even after the thick new floor that was put over the old floor on the sixth floor, well, you still could see light. and the new floor extended a little beyond the old floor. so therefore i would say that you could see light much more when the old floor was there. mr. ball. when you were there the other day, you looked up through a crack in the ceiling of the fifth floor? mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. ball. could you see the new floor? mr. williams. you could. you could see daylight through. mr. ball. now, where was that crack with reference to the wall of the fifth floor? mr. williams. with reference to the wall of the fifth floor, the crack that i was speaking about was directly over my head, and also directly over norman's head. mr. ball. and that would be where the floor would ordinarily make a joint with the wall? mr. williams. with the wall. mr. ball. you say you ran down to the west window. mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. ball. from where you were? mr. williams. yes, sir. first of all---- mr. ball. i will take this same diagram---- mr. williams. first of all we made a stop before we got to the last stop that we was when the policeman came up. mr. ball. yes. that is where i want you to show me now, where you made the stop. this is the fifth floor diagram. we will mark the fifth floor diagram as exhibit . (the document so described was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. ball. this is elm street on , and here are the windows where you have shown us you were standing. mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. ball. now, will you show us the direction that you ran and also point to the window? mr. williams. the direction that we ran after we heard the shots was--i would say i was in about this position here, this window. and we left like this. harold was coming from here. mr. ball. let me show you the diagram. here are these two pair of windows that are shown here on this diagram. this is the corner. here is the next window, and here is the next window. now, take the pencil and show where you were and where you ran to. mr. williams. i was right here. mr. ball. mark an x, and bring it on down, and show us. mr. williams. i left here, and i came like this. the other fellows followed like this. we all was running this direction here. and i believe when we got to this point here, we stopped. and i am not sure, but i think james jarman, he raised this window, this corner window here, and we all huddled in this corner window. mr. ball. we will mark that window y. and then you ran from x to y, you three men? mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. ball. was the window open or closed? mr. williams. i think it was closed at the time. mr. ball. was it opened then? mr. williams. i believe james jarman opened the window. mr. ball. now, the other day, when you were up here, you three men went to that window and stood there and had your picture taken, did you not? mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. ball. this window which you have shown as y, in , the diagram of the fifth floor. mr. williams. that's right. mr. ball. here is . (the document so described was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. ball. is that the window? mr. williams. yes; it is. mr. ball. and is that about the way you were standing as you looked out to the west? mr. williams. that is about the way we were standing. mr. ball. did you run fast towards the west? mr. williams. we did. we moved rather fast. we was at a trotting pace. mr. dulles. was that to get a better view of the president's party in the car? mr. williams. no, sir; i don't think--we knew the president had been shot at at that time. the car was gone, you know. it has speeded up and left. but the people, as i said before, the policemen and people were running towards the tracks. the tracks are at this side of the building. we wondered why they were running that way. mr. dulles. how did you know the president was shot at this time? mr. williams. we heard the shots, and we assumed somebody had shot him. and we decided to run down that way. representative ford. why didn't you go up to the sixth floor? mr. williams. i really don't know. we just never did think about it. and after we had made this last stop, james jarman said, "maybe we better get the hell out of here." and so we just ran down to the fourth floor, and came on down. we never did think about it, going up to the sixth floor. maybe it was just because we were frightened. mr. dulles. did you know the president had been hit? mr. williams. well, personally i did not know he had been hit, but i think harold--i remember--i don't know whether he said or not--but i think he said he saw him slump. so from that i think we all assumed he had been shot at. mr. dulles. one of the other two? mr. williams. yes, sir; i think it was. mr. dulles. said that? mr. williams. yes, sir; i believe that is what he said. anyway, we knew he had been shot at. mr. ball. after you left this corner window in the southwest corner that we have shown you the picture of as , where did you go? mr. williams. then we moved over to another window on the west side of the building. mr. ball. let's go back to the diagram of the fifth floor, , and you show me where that window was. mr. williams. it was one of these windows, i believe it was this window here, i believe. maybe it was this window. i would say this window. mr. ball. all right. we will mark that z--window z. mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. ball. and the other day, friday, march th, when we were in dallas, you three men went to that same window, didn't you? mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. ball. and you had your picture taken? mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. ball. that is . (the described document was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. ball. is that about it? mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. ball. why did you go there and look in that direction? mr. williams. because, as i said before, the policeman was running toward the tracks. mr. ball. the tracks shown in this picture? mr. williams. yes, sir. i believe that is the parking lot right here. mr. ball. and the tracks are shown in there, aren't they? mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. ball. and were people running towards the tracks? mr. williams. yes, sir; the policemen were. representative ford. mr. ball, i hate to interrupt, but i do have to go to a call of the house. i wonder if i could ask one question right here. i dislike breaking up the sequence. mr. williams, when did you first know that the president's motorcade would come by the texas school book depository? mr. williams. well, i never did know the exact time. but i think my wife had mentioned it before that friday. she had told me, because i never did have too much time reading the paper. and that morning, that friday morning, we was on the sixth floor, and i think some fellows mentioned it to me again, some of the fellows working with me. representative ford. you did not know the motorcade was coming by your building until friday morning? mr. williams. no, sir; i didn't know the exact way it was coming, because i hadn't been reading the papers. representative ford. you had not read the paper the day before? mr. williams. about the only thing i would read in the paper in the mornings before i leave home would be the sports. representative ford. was it discussed in the building that morning of november d that the motorcade was coming by the texas school book depository? mr. williams. i believe i heard a couple of fellows say--i don't remember exactly who it was--but i believe i heard them say the motorcade was coming around that way. representative ford. but it was not until friday that you personally knew it was coming by the building? mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. dulles. i would like to ask one question here. when you were on the sixth floor eating your lunch, did you hear anything that made you feel that there was anybody else on the sixth floor with you? mr. williams. no, sir; i didn't hear anything. mr. dulles. you did not see anything? mr. williams. i did not see anything. mr. dulles. you were all alone as far as you knew at that time on the sixth floor? mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. dulles. during that period of from o'clock about to-- or minutes after? mr. williams. yes, sir. i felt like i was all alone. that is one of the reasons i left--because it was so quiet. mr. mccloy. when you saw oswald that morning, was he carrying any package? did you see any bundle or package with him? mr. williams. no, sir; i didn't see anything other than the clipboard with the orders on it that he was filling, as i remember. mr. mccloy. how many shots did you hear fired? mr. williams. i heard three shots. but at first i told the fbi i only heard two--they took me down--because i was excited, and i couldn't remember too well. but later on, as everything began to die down, i got my memory even a little better than on the d, i remembered three shots, because there was a pause between the first two shots. there was two real quick. there was three shots. mr. ball. did you hear anything upstairs at all? mr. williams. no, sir; i didn't hear anything. mr. ball. any footsteps? mr. williams. no, sir. probably the reason we didn't hear anything is because, you know, after the shots we were running, too, and that was making a louder noise. mr. ball. you really ran? mr. williams. yes, sir; we ran. and that was probably making a lot of noise. mr. ball. now, i'm going to hold this up. i don't know whether everybody can see it or not---- mr. dulles. could i ask one question in connection with your last question? did you hear either of the elevators going up or down while you were eating your meal? mr. williams. no, sir; i did not. mr. dulles. you didn't hear the elevators at all? mr. williams. no, sir. mr. dulles. if an elevator had come to that floor, would you have heard it then? mr. williams. that all depends---- mr. dulles. were they noisy elevators? the operation of the doors and so forth? mr. williams. yes, sir. the elevator that i came up on to the sixth floor, if you would listen--say you were listening for the boss, you could hear, because you would be paying attention. the elevator is worked by hand pedal. when you release the hand pedal it makes a noise. it bangs--or maybe you can hear the old elevator when it is first coming up. but at that time i did not hear anything. (at this point, representative ford left the hearing room.) mr. ball. i would like to point out over in the northwest corner there is a stairwell. and the elevators are shown here. and the witness has placed himself at point "z" on exhibit , which is near a pair of west windows. now, you are oriented there, are you not? mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. ball. all right. when you were at "z" were you able to see the stairwell? mr. williams. no, sir. mr. ball. why? mr. williams. you could not see the stairs from that point because this other--this is the stairway, and it has some shelves made out of some old wooden boxes. those old wooden boxes come out to about right here. and they come out maybe feet, even more than that, past the stairway. and that would block your view of the stairway from that point. mr. ball. mark it in there with your pencil. mr. williams. these are the stairs. i would say the bookcase would come out like that. mr. ball. the shelf we will mark "wx", both ends of the shelf. how high is the shelf? mr. williams. pretty high. mr. ball. does it go to the ceiling? mr. williams. as i remember, they do not go exactly to the ceiling. but i am feet, and they are way over me, i think. mr. ball. now, could you see all of the elevators from there? mr. williams. well, by me being the tallest, i saw---- mr. ball. i am not going into what you saw. but could you see either elevator from where you were standing at "z"? mr. williams. yes, sir; you could see this pretty plainly. mr. ball. you mean the west elevator? mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. ball. could you see the east elevator? mr. williams. no, sir; you could not see it exactly. mr. ball. now, when you were questioned by the fbi agents, talking to mr. odum and mr. griffin, they reported in writing here that while you were standing at the west end of the building on the fifth floor, a police officer came up on the elevator and looked all around the fifth floor and left the floor. did you see anything like that? mr. williams. well, at the time i was up there i saw a motorcycle policeman. he came up. and the only thing i saw of him was his white helmet. mr. ball. what did he do? mr. williams. he just came around, and around to the elevator. mr. ball. which elevator? mr. williams. i believe it was the east elevator. mr. ball. did you see anybody with him? mr. williams. i did not. mr. ball. you were only able to see the top of his helmet? mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. ball. you could only see the top of his helmet? mr. williams. yes, sir; that is the only thing i saw about it. mr. ball. they reported that you told them on the d of november that you and hank, that is hank norman, isn't it---- mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. ball. and junior--that is junior jarman--were standing where they would have seen anyone coming down from the sixth floor by way of the stairs. did you tell them that? mr. williams. i could not possibly have told him that, because you cannot see anything coming down from that position. mr. ball. and that you did not see anyone coming down. mr. williams. no, sir. an elephant could walk by there, and you could not see him. mr. ball. that day we were out there, friday, march th, we took some pictures. mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. ball. i show you . (the document described was marked exhibit no. for identification.) mr. ball. we took a picture from where you were standing towards the stairs. do you recognize that? mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. ball. what is that? mr. williams. this is the side we were on. i believe these are the bookshelves i was speaking of. mr. ball. that is the ones that hide the stairwell? mr. williams. that is right. mr. ball. and the camera is--you saw where the camera was set, didn't you? mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. ball. you saw these pictures taken? mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. ball. where was the camera? mr. williams. the camera was located about the exact place i was standing looking out this window. mr. ball. that would be "z" on ? mr. williams. that's right. mr. ball. and was pointed toward what direction? mr. williams. it was pointed towards the stairway and the bookcase. mr. ball. the way you would have been looking on that day? mr. williams. right. mr. ball. and this shows those shelves. mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. ball. i have two other pictures i would like to show, and i would like to show the commissioners all three at the same time. now, do you recall that we had you three men stand near the stairwell? mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. ball. now, on this picture here, on , that would be what location? mr. williams. on this picture here, that would be about right in here. mr. ball. near the "up", is that right? mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. ball. i would like to have the commissioners note that--that the man was standing near the "up" part of the stairwell. we took your pictures three in a row, is that right? mr. williams. that is right. mr. ball. and then do you recall the picture was taken? mr. williams. yes, sir; i recall this picture. this picture was taken from the position we were standing, and it gave the view of--the only thing you would be able to see from this point. and this picture here was james jarman, which we were standing shoulder to shoulder. mr. ball. also were the cartons piled at that time so that--as they were here--on the day, november d, were the cartons piled somewhat like they are here? mr. williams. they were piled somewhat like here, because they have been rearranged since that time. mr. ball. now, in both pictures, and , you see two windows, do you not? mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. ball. and those windows are shown on the diagram of the fifth floor, , as where? mr. williams. right here. mr. ball. the windows next to the west elevator? mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. ball. and in this picture, are you able to see either elevator? mr. williams. in this picture? mr. ball. this picture-- and --are you able to see either elevator? mr. williams. no, sir; you cannot see exactly the elevator. mr. ball. now, in this picture, , where is the downstairs? mr. williams. the downstairs come right in here. mr. ball. are you able to see the opening of the downstairs from this view, ? mr. williams. no, sir. mr. ball. and the thing that obstructs your view is this shelving, is that right? mr. williams. yes, sir; that's right. mr. dulles. how long has that shelving been there--for quite a long while? or was it put there recently? mr. williams. i think it was there from the time i started, as far as i can remember. mr. dulles. that goes back to the time you were first employed there? mr. williams. yes, sir. at the time i came to the building. mr. dulles. so it could not have been put up a day or two before. mr. williams. no, sir. mr. ball. did you hear anyone going up or down the stairs? mr. williams. no, i didn't. mr. ball. did you pay any attention to that? mr. williams. no, sir. mr. ball. as you were standing at the window, did you hear any footsteps? mr. williams. no, sir. mr. ball. up above--hear any movement up above? mr. williams. no, sir; i don't remember. mr. ball. were you paying any attention whether or not there was anyone up above? mr. williams. no, sir; we wasn't paying any attention. mr. ball. now, in this fbi report that we have dated the d of november , the report that you said that someone might have been coming down on the elevator and you would not have noticed that. did you say that? mr. williams. i think i remember saying that. mr. ball. after you stood at the west window for a while, what did you do? mr. williams. after we stood at the west window for a while, we decided to go down. then we left. mr. ball. how did you go down? mr. williams. by stairs. mr. ball. where did you go? mr. williams. we went to the fourth floor first. then we paused for a minute there, where we saw these women looking out of the window. then we decided to go down to the first floor, and we ran on down. mr. ball. when you got to the first floor, what did you see there? mr. mccloy. how did you get to the first floor? mr. williams. by stairs. mr. dulles. there were some people on the fourth floor? mr. williams. yes, sir. i remember seeing maybe two or three women standing in the window, looking out the window. mr. dulles. looking out the window? mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. which stairway did they take, west or east? mr. ball. there was only one stairway, and that is the one in the corner. did you run down stairs? mr. williams. yes, sir; we ran. mr. ball. when you got to the first floor, what did you see? mr. williams. when we arrived to the first floor, the first thing i noticed was that the policemen had rushed in. i think some firemen came in with a water hose. and then the next thing that happened, these detectives, or maybe fbi--anyway, they stopped us all and they said, "do you work here?" and we told them yes. and they took our name, address, and they searched everybody. and then the other fellow--i think one fellow asked whether we had been working upstairs. i think we told him yes. they got out all the fellows i think that was working on the sixth floor at the time, and they took us all down to the courthouse, i think, and we had to fill out some affidavits and things. mr. ball. you made out an affidavit there? mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. ball. did you go out of the building shortly after you came downstairs? mr. williams. they wouldn't let anybody out of the building. mr. ball. how long after you came down from the first floor were you taken over to the police department? mr. williams. i couldn't give you the exact time, but it wasn't long. mr. ball. you can't give me any estimate in minutes? mr. williams. no, sir; i would not want to say. mr. dulles. did you see lee oswald at any time during this period? mr. williams. no, sir; i don't remember seeing him. mr. ball. were the police with you? mr. williams. yes; they were. mr. ball. were your two friends with you, jarman and---- mr. williams. no; they wasn't with me. first i think they took me and another fellow, danny--they took us in one car. then they took some other fellows in another car, and then another car, i think. mr. ball. you were with danny arce and one or two police officers? mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. ball. anybody else? mr. williams. that's all. mr. ball. do you know when norman and jarman went out? mr. williams. well, at the time i don't think norman and jarman came down right then. they brought bill shelley and bill lovelady, a fellow by the name of jack dougherty, and charles givens later on, they brought them right behind us. mr. ball. when you left the first floor with the officers, was norman still there? mr. williams. yes, sir; he was in the building. mr. ball. and was jarman still there? mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. ball. i would like to offer all of the exhibits that we marked so far into evidence. mr. dulles. could you give me the numbers? mr. ball. i think they run to , inclusive. mr. dulles. was introduced? mr. ball. if and were not, we offer them. is a diagram of the sixth floor. we offer that. everything this morning from to we offer in evidence. the last number is . mr. dulles. all exhibits subsequent to the last exhibit noted in the record up to and including will be admitted. (the material heretofore marked exhibits nos. through , inclusive, previously marked for identification, were received in evidence.) mr. mccloy. i have some questions. when you came downstairs, do you remember seeing a man named brennan, and did a man named brennan identify you downstairs? mr. williams. no, sir; i don't remember that. mr. mccloy. no one that you know--no one said, "this is the man i have seen on the fifth floor window?" mr. williams. no, sir. mr. mccloy. were you physically kept from leaving the building when you got downstairs? did you try to go out of the building? mr. williams. no, sir; i wasn't trying to go out of the building because there wasn't any use of trying to, because at the time we arrived on the first floor, i heard an officer shout out and say, "no one leave the building." mr. mccloy. have you got any appreciation of the time that elapsed between your hearing the first shot and the time that you got finally down to the first floor, after you had been on the fifth floor and the fourth floor? mr. williams. no, sir; i could not give you any time. mr. mccloy. well, you did not give us any time. do you have any recollection now of about how long that was? was it minutes, minutes, minutes? how long did it take from the time that you were looking out that window and you heard that shot until you did get down to the first floor? mr. williams. well, i could say approximately minutes, maybe a little before then, maybe after. i could not say exactly. mr. dulles. do you know what time it was when you went off and left for the police station? mr. williams. i could not give you the exact time. mr. mccloy. do you know whether or not anybody got out of the building before the police could get there? did any of your friends or the people you were working with, did you hear whether any of them had left the building before the building was closed? mr. williams. yes, sir; i heard mr. truly--he said that--he mentioned that--he said, "where is lee?" that is what everybody called him. "where is lee?", he said, and therefore i assume he did not know where lee was, that he was out of the building, because everybody else was there. and there was another colored fellow by the name of charles givens. he wasn't in the building at the time. he was downtown somewhere. mr. mccloy. had he been at the building at the time of the shooting--givens? mr. williams. i don't believe he had. mr. dulles. what did mr. truly say about lee not being there? mr. williams. the only thing i heard him say is--i think an officer asked him, "is everyone here?" and he said, "where is lee?"--like that, you know. mr. dulles. mr. truly said that? mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. do you know the name of the first policeman that accosted you, who stopped you? mr. williams. no, sir. mr. mccloy. are you familiar with firearms? mr. williams. no, sir. mr. mccloy. do you ever do any hunting? mr. williams. no, sir; i never go hunting. mr. mccloy. but you have heard shots fired? mr. williams. yes, sir; i heard my grandfather try a gun out, something like that. mr. mccloy. you were not in the army? mr. williams. no, sir; i have never been in the army. mr. mccloy. i think that is all i have. mr. dulles. i have one question. you have referred to three explosions that--one you thought was a backfire or a firecracker. mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. dulles. was there any difference in the sound of those three explosions? mr. williams. as far as i remember, there wasn't any difference in the sound. it was just the time between the sound. mr. mccloy. as i heard you testify, you said there was a larger pause between the first and the second shot than there was between the second and the third. mr. williams. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. let me get this clear. did you see the president crumple after the shot? did you see the president hit? mr. williams. personally, i did not see him, because i was kind of jumping. mr. dulles. are there any other questions? thank you very much, and we appreciate your coming. we will recess at this time until o'clock this afternoon. (whereupon, at : p.m., the president's commission recessed.) afternoon session testimony of howard leslie brennan resumed the president's commission reconvened at : p.m. mr. mccloy. the purpose of today's hearing is to have the testimony of mr. brennan here and you gentlemen. mr. williams has already appeared before us, and mr. norman and mr. jarman and also mr. truly who will be on the stand later. you were all witnesses, you were all in the vicinity of the texas school book depository building at the time of the assassination of president kennedy, and we are going to ask you to give us your knowledge of the facts such as they come within your knowledge of that event and we will have some questions that we will wish to ask you. mr. ball. the record will show that harold norman, whose nickname is hank, is present and bonnie ray williams and james jarman, whose nickname is junior. mr. brennan is also. mr. belin. mr. brennan, you testified here this morning, is that correct? mr. brennan. right. mr. mccloy. you are still under oath, mr. brennan. mr. belin. i believe that you testified that you thought you recognized two of the people that you saw looking out of the fifth floor of the school book depository building you thought you recognized outside of the building sometime after the assassination, is that correct? the two people that you saw, are they any of these three people here? mr. brennan. yes. i believe it is the one on the end and this one here, i am not sure. mr. belin. by that you would mean---- mr. brennan. i don't know which of those two. mr. ball. let's identify. mr. belin. which person do you mean, you mean mr. norman sitting opposite? mr. brennan. yes; i believe he was one of them. mr. belin. and you believe it was mr. jarman together? mr. brennan. jarman. mr. belin. were they with some policeman as they came out of the building or in custody of some plainclothesman? mr. brennan. i don't believe they were. mr. belin. you saw them together come out of the building? mr. brennan. i don't believe they were. i don't recall seeing any officer bring them out or with them. mr. belin. now you do not believe then that it was mr. williams? mr. brennan. no; i won't say for sure. i can't tell which of those two it was. mr. belin. in other words, you say that you can't, when you say you can't tell whether it was mr. williams or mr. norman, did you just see one person or two? mr. brennan. i saw two but i can't identify which one it was. mr. belin. could it have been neither one of these persons that you saw? mr. brennan. i think it was one of them. i think it was this boy on the end. mr. belin. you thought it was mr. norman. and what about mr. jarman? mr. brennan. i believe it was him, too. am i right or wrong? mr. ball. i don't know. mr. brennan. i explained that to you this morning. mr. ball. i understand. any questions? mr. mccloy. did you recognize anyone in this room that you saw in the fifth floor window while you were sitting on the masonry opposite the school book depository? mr. brennan. that is the two boys that i am speaking of now. mr. mccloy. that you are speaking of now? mr. brennan. yes. mr. mccloy. you saw these two men in the fifth floor window and you saw them again on the first floor? mr. brennan. coming out of the building down the stairway, coming out on the street, those were the only two people i could identify. mr. belin. i hand you---- mr. brennan. i recall seeing three people with you i---- mr. belin. i hand you exhibit which you testified to this morning was a recent picture taken of the texas school book depository building on march . this is you sitting on that concrete wall? mr. brennan. right. mr. belin. at first i believe this morning you thought that you saw one person or two people at the point marked b, and then you later said it was to the window which would be to the---- mr. brennan. left. mr. belin. well, let's talk about directions. this direction here would be to the east and this direction here would be to the west? mr. brennan. right. mr. belin. would it be a window to the east or west? mr. brennan. i believe it was a window to the east. mr. belin. so you saw, you believe you saw two people in this window here to the east of the window that you first marked b? mr. brennan. yes. i am not positive. mr. belin. you are not positive? mr. brennan. no. mr. redlich. mr. mccloy, may i have permission to ask this question of this witness? mr. mccloy. very well. mr. redlich. you stated that you saw two employees walking down the steps of the building? mr. brennan. yes. mr. redlich. do you recall whether the two employees that you saw walking down the steps of the building were the same two employees that you saw on the window, in the window on the fifth floor at the easterly most end of the building? mr. brennan. yes; as far as on the fifth floor and at one of these two windows. the one i circled or this window here. mr. redlich. you mean two of the people that you---- mr. brennan. at one of the windows i saw two, two of those people, employees that came down. mr. redlich. but you are not prepared to state which of these three possible windows? mr. brennan. that is right. mr. redlich. by three, i mean the two windows to the east, plus the one window which is circled and marked with a b. mr. brennan. nothing makes me think that they were in this window but i am in question whether it was this window or this window. mr. redlich. and of the two people that you saw, it is possible you are saying that one might have been in the window marked b and another might have been in a window to the east? mr. brennan. yes. mr. redlich. thank you. mr. belin. mr. brennan, are you basing your recollection on what you saw during the moments that the shots were fired or on what you saw when you observed these windows prior to the time the motorcade arrived? mr. brennan. what i saw prior. there was no significance to the fact at all. in other words, there is a little difference in your memory there on this. mr. ball. no questions. you may be excused, mr. brennan. you two men can also be excused and we will call you in a few moments, mr. jarman. mr. redlich. we don't need mr. williams at all. mr. ball. we don't need you at all. mr. redlich. we may want him back. mr. belin. don't get too far away. testimony of harold norman i will ask you if you will please stand and hold up your right hand. do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give in this case will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. norman. i do. mr. ball. mr. norman. mr. norman. yes, sir. mr. ball. where do you live? mr. norman. beulah place, dallas, tex. mr. ball. are you married? mr. norman. yes. mr. ball. how old are you? mr. norman. . i will be. mr. ball. where were you born? mr. norman. clarksville, tex. mr. ball. were you raised in clarksville? mr. norman. yes, sir. mr. ball. go to school there? mr. norman. yes, sir. mr. ball. how far did you go to school? mr. norman. i graduated there. mr. ball. from high school? mr. norman. yes, sir. mr. ball. in clarksville? mr. norman. yes, sir. mr. ball. what kind of work did you do after you got out of school? mr. norman. well, i remember working in salina. i did a car washing job at the mcelroy chevrolet co., and after i left there i came to dallas and i started working at the depository, the school book depository. mr. ball. that was about what year did you start working there? mr. norman. in , i believe. mr. ball. ? mr. norman. yes, sir. mr. ball. how long did you work there? mr. norman. well, i think this coming october would have made years. mr. ball. and you work there now? mr. norman. no, sir. mr. ball. where do you work now? mr. norman. the foxboro co. mr. ball. what kind of business is that? mr. norman. engineer instrumentation. mr. ball. what kind of work do you do? mr. norman. porter. mr. ball. when did you leave the texas school book depository for this new job? mr. norman. i left during the christmas holidays and the new year's leave after we got off for new year's. mr. ball. in november , this is this last fall, what kind of work were you doing at the texas school book depository? mr. norman. i was employed as an order filler. mr. ball. is that the same kind of a job that lee oswald had? mr. norman. yes, sir. mr. ball. did you know him? mr. norman. no; just as an employee, that is all. mr. ball. you didn't know him before he came to work there? mr. norman. no, sir. mr. ball. did you get acquainted with him after he was there? mr. norman. no. just knew his name. i mean, you know, he wouldn't talk to anybody so i didn't---- mr. ball. he didn't talk to anybody? mr. norman. no. mr. ball. did you ever engage him in conversation at the time he was there? mr. norman. no, sir. i just, you know, speak to him, that is all. i wouldn't engage in conversation. mr. ball. are you the boys that use clipboards? mr. norman. yes, sir. mr. ball. the order fillers? mr. norman. yes, sir. mr. ball. somebody gives you orders by way of papers? mr. norman. yes, sir. mr. ball. what do you do after you get an order on a paper? mr. norman. we had a different publisher in the building, and each individual, he had a publisher that he would take, maybe i would take to a publisher and the other orders would and we would fill orders and bring them down to the first floor for them to be checked and shipped out. mr. ball. you have to go up and get the books out of cartons, do you? mr. norman. yes. if we didn't have enough down in the bins down on the first floor we would have to go upstairs, to complete the orders. mr. ball. do you fill some of your orders from the first floor? mr. norman. yes. mr. ball. how many floors did you go to that morning yourself, november ? can you remember that? mr. norman. i believe i went as far as the fifth floor that morning. mr. ball. that is as far---- mr. norman. yes. mr. ball. did you ever go to the sixth floor that day, that morning? mr. norman. i can't--yes, i went up that morning during the time i think they were laying the floor up there when i went up there. mr. ball. did you help them? mr. norman. no; i was just up there shooting the breeze. mr. ball. now what about lee oswald. do you know what publisher he filled orders for? mr. norman. i knew scott-foresman. mr. ball. scott-foresman. mr. norman. yes. mr. ball. that was the publisher assigned to him? mr. norman. yes. well, i don't know if he was assigned to him but he filled, you know. mr. ball. he filled those orders? mr. norman. yes. mr. ball. you say then he filled scott-foresman book orders? mr. norman. yes. mr. ball. do you know where those books were kept? mr. norman. the majority of them were on the sixth floor. mr. ball. they were? mr. norman. yes. mr. ball. and did you also keep a stock of scott-foresman books on the first floor? mr. norman. yes. mr. ball. what time did you get to work on the morning of november the d? mr. norman. i got there i would say about minutes of o'clock, minutes until in the morning. mr. ball. you weren't late? mr. norman. no; i wasn't. mr. ball. did you see lee oswald when you got to work? mr. norman. no; i don't recall seeing him when i got to work. mr. ball. did you remember seeing him at any time that morning? mr. norman. yes; around about or : , somewhere in the neighborhood of that. mr. ball. where did you see him? mr. norman. over in the bins by the windows, i mean looking out, you know, at elm street, towards elm street. mr. ball. on what floor? mr. norman. the first. mr. ball. looking out on elm through windows, is that right? mr. norman. yes, sir. i was looking out the window. he happened to come by to fill orders. mr. ball. did he say anything to you? mr. norman. no; he didn't. mr. ball. did you say anything to him? mr. norman. no. mr. ball. did you see him at any time after that? mr. norman. no; no more. i don't recall seeing him any more that day. mr. ball. what time did you quit for lunch? mr. norman. i believe i quit around : , i think. mr. ball. and what did you do after you quit? mr. norman. well, i went in, washed up and i---- mr. ball. when you go in and wash up, where did you go to wash up? mr. norman. in the men's bathroom. mr. ball. is that bathroom near the domino room or off the domino room? mr. norman. yes; that is the one off the domino room. mr. ball. it is the one near the domino room? mr. norman. yes; one near the domino room. mr. ball. right next to it? mr. norman. yes. mr. ball. after you washed up, what did you do? mr. norman. well, i got my lunch, i ate my lunch in the domino room. mr. ball. did you bring your lunch from home that day? mr. norman. yes; i believe i did. mr. ball. and in what kind of a package did you bring it? mr. norman. a brown paper sack, paper bag. mr. ball. where did you keep your lunch or leave your lunch from in the morning until you got it at noon? mr. norman. i left it in the window of the domino room. mr. ball. did you notice any other packages in that window that morning? mr. norman. i can't say that i noticed any that morning but i know that some of the fellows did keep their lunches in there. mr. ball. did you notice anything, any unusual package in there that day? mr. norman. no; i didn't. mr. ball. you got your lunch and did you eat your lunch? mr. norman. yes; i ate my lunch. mr. ball. where were you when you ate your lunch? mr. norman. in the domino room, as i recall. mr. ball. who was with you at that time? mr. norman. i can't remember who ate in the lunchroom, i mean the domino room, with me. mr. ball. did some other employees eat there? mr. norman. i think there was someone else in there because we usually played dominoes in there but that particular day we didn't play that morning. mr. ball. why didn't you play that morning? mr. norman. well, didn't nobody show up there to play like the guys usually come in to play. mr. ball. you usually play dominoes during the noon hour? mr. norman. noon hour and the break period. mr. ball. after you ate your lunch, what did you do? mr. norman. i got with james jarman, he and i got together on the first floor. mr. ball. where was james jarman when you got together with him? mr. norman. he was somewhere in the vicinity of the telephone, i believe. i am not for sure. mr. ball. out near the bins? mr. norman. yes. mr. ball. what do you call james jarman? mr. norman. junior. mr. ball. and you and junior did what? mr. norman. we went outside. mr. ball. you went out the front door, did you? mr. norman. yes. mr. ball. that is the elm street? mr. norman. yes, sir. mr. ball. where did you stand? mr. norman. we stood on the elm street sidewalk. mr. ball. on the sidewalk? mr. norman. yes. we didn't go any further than that point. mr. ball. what time was it that you went out there? mr. norman. oh, i would say, i don't know exactly, around or : , something like that. mr. ball. who was standing with you when you were standing on the sidewalk, on the elm street sidewalk? mr. norman. i remember it was danny arce. mr. ball. and who else? mr. norman. i remember seeing mr. truly and mr. campbell. they were standing somewhere behind us, not exactly behind us but they were back of us. mr. ball. anybody else? mr. norman. well, i believe billy lovelady, i think. he was sitting on the steps there. mr. ball. he was? mr. norman. yes. that is about all the employees i remember seeing out there. there were more people out there. mr. ball. did you stay there? mr. norman. well, we stayed there i believe until we got the news that the motorcade was coming down, let's see, is that commerce, no main, because commerce--we went back in the building, james jarman and i. mr. ball. where did you go when you went in the building? mr. norman. we got the east elevator. no; the west. mr. ball. the west elevator? mr. norman. the west elevator. and went to the fifth floor. mr. ball. the west elevator is the one you use the push button on? mr. norman. yes; the one you pull the gate. mr. ball. that is right. it is a push button elevator. mr. norman. yes. mr. ball. and you went up to the fifth floor? mr. norman. fifth floor. mr. ball. why did you go to the fifth floor? mr. norman. usually, one reason was you usually fill orders, i fill quite a few orders from the fifth floor and i figured i could get, you know, a better view of the parade or motorcade or whatever it is from the fifth floor because i was more familiar with that floor. mr. ball. and what did you and junior do after you got off the elevator? mr. norman. we walked around to the windows facing elm street and i can't recall if any were open or not but i remember we opened some, two or three windows ourselves. mr. ball. did somebody join you there? mr. norman. bonnie ray, i can't remember if he was there when we got there or he came later. i know he was with us a period of time later. mr. ball. and then did he come down before the president's motorcade came by? mr. norman. yes; he was with us before the motorcade came by. mr. ball. did you move around any from one window to another before the motorcade? mr. norman. well, if i did i didn't move no further than those three windows that were open in the front there. i didn't move any further than that. mr. ball. i show you some pictures here. this is commission exhibit no. . do you recognize anybody in that window? mr. norman. that is myself and that is bonnie ray williams. mr. ball. "myself" is pointed to as to the window in the extreme southeast corner of the fifth floor, is that right? mr. norman. yes. mr. ball. and bonnie ray is in the window next to you? mr. norman. yes. mr. ball. i show you . do you see the window in which you were looking? mr. norman. that window is where i was looking. mr. ball. in other words, you were looking in the extreme southeast corner? mr. norman. yes. mr. ball. put over here a red arrow which shows the window from which you were looking. mr. norman. yes. mr. ball. here is . do you see your picture in that window? mr. norman. yes. mr. ball. the same picture? mr. norman. yes. mr. ball. point out your picture on . mr. norman. that is myself. mr. ball. i will point that out with a red arrow on . now were you standing up or sitting down? mr. norman. i was sitting. i wasn't at all standing up. mr. ball. at the time the president's motorcade went by, how were you sitting? mr. norman. i believe i wasn't on my knees i don't think, but i was in a hunched over position somewhat like this. mr. ball. last friday afternoon, that is march , you and junior jarman and bonnie ray williams went up on the fifth floor with me, didn't you? mr. norman. yes, sir. mr. ball. and a photographer? mr. norman. yes. mr. ball. and you took a position; did you? mr. norman. yes. mr. ball. what position did you take at the window? first of all, what did i ask you to do? what position did i ask you to take? mr. norman. i believe you told us to take the position that we thought we were in during the time of the motorcade. mr. ball. and do you recognize this picture, ? do you show in the picture? mr. norman. yes, sir; that is myself there. mr. ball. you are sitting there looking out a window. how does that picture compare with what you remember as to your position when the president's motorcade went by? mr. norman. well, i don't think--i think i was facing the window more straight during that time, i mean the motorcade, that i am in this position here. mr. ball. that picture shows you looking out the window down the street, is that right? mr. norman. yes. mr. ball. and this is a picture of bonnie ray also, isn't it? mr. norman. yes. mr. ball. now you saw the president go by, did you? mr. norman. yes. mr. ball. what happened then? mr. norman. about the time that he got past the window where i was, well, it seems as though he was, i mean you know, brushing his hair. maybe he was looking to the public. mr. mccloy. saluting? mr. norman. yes. mr. ball. with which arm? mr. norman. i believe it was his right arm, and i can't remember what the exact time was but i know i heard a shot, and then after i heard the shot, well, it seems as though the president, you know, slumped or something, and then another shot and i believe jarman or someone told me, he said, "i believe someone is shooting at the president," and i think i made a statement "it is someone shooting at the president, and i believe it came from up above us." well, i couldn't see at all during the time but i know i heard a third shot fired, and i could also hear something sounded like the shell hulls hitting the floor and the ejecting of the rifle, it sounded as though it was to me. mr. ball. how many shots did you hear? mr. norman. three. mr. ball. do you remember whether or not you said anything to the men then as to whether or not you heard anything from above you? mr. norman. only i think i remember saying that i thought i could hear the shell hulls and the ejection of the rifle. i didn't tell i think i hear anybody moving, you know. mr. ball. but you thought, do you remember you told the men then that you thought you heard the ejection of the rifle? mr. norman. yes, sir. mr. ball. and shells on the floor? mr. norman. yes, sir. mr. ball. falling? mr. norman. yes. mr. ball. did anybody say anything as to where they thought the shots came from? mr. norman. well, i don't recall of either one of them saying they thought where it came from. mr. ball. but you did? mr. norman. yes. mr. ball. and you said you thought it came from where? mr. norman. above where we were, above us. mr. ball. did you see any dust or dirt falling? mr. norman. i didn't see any falling but i saw some in bonnie ray williams' hair. mr. ball. did anybody say anything about it? mr. norman. i believe jarman told him that it was in his hair first. then i, you know, told him it was and i believe jarman told him not to brush it out his hair but i think he did anyway. mr. ball. after that happened, what did you do? mr. norman. well, we ran to the farthest window facing the expressway. mr. ball. the farthest window, is that right? mr. norman. yes. mr. ball. i have here a diagram of this fifth floor. mr. mccloy. may i interrupt there. mr. ball. go right ahead. mr. mccloy. you spoke about seeing the president sort of slump over after the first shot? mr. norman. yes; i believe the first. mr. mccloy. did you see the president hit on any subsequent shots? mr. norman. no; i don't recall seeing that. mr. ball. here is a diagram of the sixth floor. mr. norman. the sixth floor? mr. ball. of the fifth floor rather, which is commission's , and this is the southeast corner window. to what window did you and your two friends run? mr. norman. this is the south. this is the window we were in. we came to this last, i believe it is the next to the last or the last window on this end here, right here. mr. ball. and the other day when you were up on the fifth floor with a photographer, you ran to that window, did you? mr. norman. well, we ran to the window, we thought it was the window we ran to. mr. ball. and you opened that window? mr. norman. yes. mr. ball. and had your picture taken? mr. norman. yes. mr. ball. here is . is that the window as you remembered it that you ran to? mr. norman. i can't say it was that particular window that day but it was between these two windows here. mr. ball. one of the two windows? mr. norman. yes. mr. ball. this is marked y here on , is that correct? mr. norman. yes. mr. ball. why did you run down to that window? mr. norman. well, it seems as though everyone else was running towards the railroad tracks, and we ran over there. curious to see why everybody was running that way for. i thought maybe---- mr. ball. did anybody say anything about going up to the sixth floor? mr. norman. i don't remember anyone saying about going up to the sixth floor. mr. ball. then did you leave that window that you have marked y on ? mr. norman. yes. mr. ball. and you went to what window? mr. norman. to the west window. mr. ball. look on the diagram and tell me what window you went to, as you remember it? mr. norman. it was between this point here, these two right here. mr. ball. that is marked z? mr. norman. yes. mr. ball. is that correct? mr. norman. yes. mr. ball. what did you do when you went to that window? mr. norman. i don't remember if we raised the window or not but i remember looking out the window that day. mr. ball. here is a picture taken last friday when you were with me on that floor? mr. norman. yes. mr. ball. do you show in the picture? mr. norman. yes, sir. mr. ball. is that the window you looked out of? mr. norman. yes, sir; i believe that is the one. mr. ball. what did you look at when you looked out that window? mr. norman. we saw the policeman, and i guess they were detectives, they were searching the empty cars over there. i remember seeing some guy on top of them. mr. ball. on top of the cars? mr. norman. yes. they were going through there. mr. ball. you saw police officers searching cars over on the railroad tracks? mr. norman. yes. mr. ball. and how long did you stay at that window? mr. norman. i don't remember, but it wasn't very long. mr. ball. then where did you go? mr. norman. we ran down to the first floor. mr. ball. as you were at the fifth floor, looking west as shown in exhibit no. , were you able to see the stairwell? mr. norman. no. mr. ball. why? mr. norman. because there is a row of bins there that prevents you standing in a position that i was in to keep you from seeing it. mr. ball. there is . does that show the row of bins? mr. norman. yes; the row of bins. mr. ball. they block off the stairwell. mr. norman. yes. mr. ball. do you remember that we tried an experiment when you were there by putting you three men in line and then taking a picture to see if we could see any one of you? mr. norman. yes, sir. mr. ball. this is a picture . that is your picture, isn't it? mr. norman. yes, sir. mr. ball. where are you? mr. norman. in the middle. mr. ball. and who is that on the end? mr. norman. which end? oh, this is bonnie ray williams. mr. ball. who is this one? mr. norman. james jarman. mr. ball. and then a picture, do you remember another picture was taken, ? mr. norman. yes, sir; i remember that picture. mr. ball. can you see anyone in that picture? mr. norman. i see one person. mr. ball. can you make him out? mr. norman. yes. i recognize him as james jarman. mr. ball. jarman, the one on the end? mr. norman. yes, sir. mr. ball. now did you see any police officer come up on that floor? mr. norman. i didn't. mr. ball. you didn't. mr. norman. no, sir. mr. ball. or did you see mr. truly come up? mr. norman. no, sir; i didn't. mr. ball. or did you hear any elevator operator? mr. norman. no; i don't recall. mr. ball. going up or down? mr. norman. no, sir; i don't recall anyone. mr. ball. when you were brought to the first floor or when you came to the first floor how did you go down there? mr. norman. we came down the stairway. i remember we came down the stairway. mr. ball. when you got to the first floor did someone talk to you, police officers? mr. norman. i don't remember a police officer talking to me as soon as we got down there. i don't. mr. ball. did anyone talk to you later? mr. norman. yes. mr. ball. who? mr. norman. i guess they were secret service men. but i know they talked to us. mr. ball. did they take you over to the police station later? mr. norman. no; they didn't carry me to the police station. mr. ball. when did you leave the place? mr. norman. oh, i would say somewhere around o'clock, somewhere in the vicinity of that. mr. ball. who did you leave with? mr. norman. mr. james jarman. i can't remember who. mr. ball. from the time that you went down on the first door until you left the building to go home did you leave the building at all? mr. norman. no; i didn't. mr. ball. where did you stay? mr. norman. they kept us on the first floor. mr. ball. you did make a statement later to the secret service, didn't you? mr. norman. yes. mr. ball. i have here a document , which is a copy of a statement made by this witness, which i now mark . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , for identification.) mr. ball. the document that i have here shows the date th of december . do you remember having made a statement to mr. carter, special agent of the secret service, on that day? mr. norman. i can't remember the exact date but i believe i remember mr. carter. mr. ball. i want to call your attention to one part of the statement and i will ask you if you told him that: "just after the president passed by, i heard a shot and several seconds later i heard two more shots. i knew that the shots had come from directly above me, and i could hear the expended cartridges fall to the floor. i could also hear the bolt action of the rifle. i also saw some dust fall from the ceiling of the fifth floor and i felt sure that whoever had fired the shots was directly above me." did you make that statement to the secret service man? mr. norman. i don't remember making a statement that i knew the shots came from directly above us. i didn't make that statement. and i don't remember saying i heard several seconds later. i merely told him that i heard three shots because i didn't have any idea what time it was. mr. ball. i see. did you tell them that you heard the bolt action of the rifle? mr. norman. yes. mr. ball. and that you heard the expended cartridges fall to the floor? mr. norman. yes; i heard them making a sound. mr. ball. i would like to offer this into evidence. mr. mccloy. it may be admitted. (the document referred to, heretofore identified as commission exhibit no. for identification, was received in evidence.) mr. mccloy. you used the expression you heard the ejection. this refers to the bolt action? mr. norman. yes. mr. mccloy. those are the same things? mr. norman. yes, sir; that is what i mean. mr. mccloy. that is what you meant by that? mr. norman. yes, sir. mr. ball. what language did you use when you talked to the secret service man, do you know? did you say you heard the ejection or that you heard the bolt action? which did you use? mr. norman. i probably said the ejection. mr. ball. that is what you think you said? mr. norman. yes. mr. ball. the same thing you said here? mr. norman. yes. mr. ball. do you remember friday that we conducted an experiment to see whether or not you could hear? mr. norman. yes, sir. mr. ball. from the sixth floor? mr. norman. yes. mr. ball. and where did you put yourself in order to conduct the experiment? mr. norman. in the same window. i may not have been in the same position but i was in the same window. mr. ball. the same window? mr. norman. yes, sir. mr. ball. and that window was open? mr. norman. yes, sir. mr. ball. and the window, was the window on the sixth floor also open? mr. norman. yes, sir; they told me it was open. i didn't see it. mr. ball. and a secret service man went upstairs with a rifle, didn't he? mr. norman. yes. mr. ball. what did you hear on the fifth floor? mr. norman. well, i heard the same sound, the sound similar. i heard three something that he dropped on the floor and then i could hear the rifle or whatever he had up there. mr. ball. you could hear the rifle, the sound of an ejection? mr. norman. yes, sir. mr. ball. did you hear the sound of the bolt going back and forth? mr. norman. yes, sir; i sure did. mr. ball. you could hear it clearly, could you? mr. norman. yes, sir. mr. ball. now there has been a new floor put in on the sixth floor, hasn't there? mr. norman. yes, sir. mr. ball. the day that you were there on november , what was the condition of the ceiling and the floor of the sixth floor? mr. norman. i would say that you could see daylight through there because during the times they put the plywood down you can see the plywood, some portion of the plywood, so i would say you could see a little daylight during that time. mr. ball. when you were there friday afternoon, did you look up at the ceiling from where you were sitting at the southeast window on the fifth floor? mr. norman. yes, sir. mr. ball. what could you see on the ceiling? mr. norman. there was one place i could see the plywood and then another place you could still see a little daylight, i mean peering through the crack. mr. ball. what about the joint where the upper floor or the floor of the sixth and ceiling of the fifth floor comes against the wall. could you see daylight through there? mr. norman. against the wall? mr. ball. yes. mr. norman. yes; in one place you could see a small amount of daylight. mr. ball. now the day of the experiment last friday when you heard the cartridges eject, the bolt action and the cartridges ejecting---- mr. norman. yes. mr. ball. was there any noise outside? mr. norman. yes; there was. mr. ball. what was it? mr. norman. there was a train and there were trucks and cars. mr. ball. was there more noise or less noise on the day you conducted the experiment last friday, march , than on november , at : ? mr. norman. it was more noise last friday than it was november . mr. ball. was there any train going by on november ? mr. norman. no, sir. mr. ball. were there any trucks going by on november ? mr. norman. no, sir. mr. ball. i have no further questions. mr. mccloy. how did you get your job at the texas school book depository? mr. norman. well, as i remember the time that i told you before i used to live in salina and washing cars at the chevrolet company i had a friend that lived in dallas and he was working down there, and he told me that he thought that i could get a job down there, and that is how i got familiar with the place. i did go by there and mr. truly gave me a job. mr. mccloy. were you getting better pay there than you had at your former job? mr. norman. at the chevrolet company? mr. mccloy. yes. mr. norman. yes, sir; i was getting better pay there. mr. mccloy. do you have any rough recollection of the amount of time that passed between the time you heard the first shot and when you ran down to the west end of the building and looked out the window there and the time when you left the fifth floor and finally came down to the first floor where the police officers were? can you give me a general estimate of about how much time that took? mr. norman. to come down from the fifth floor? mr. mccloy. yes. from the time you first heard the shot and saw what was going on in the motorcade and then ran down toward the western end of the building and then as i understand your testimony, you left there and went down to the--did you go down to the fourth floor first or did you go all the way down? mr. norman. i believe we went all the way. mr. mccloy. until you got down to the first floor, how much would you say was the entire length of that time, from the first shot until you got down on the first floor? mr. norman. oh, i would say somewhere between or minutes, somewhere like that. mr. mccloy. i don't think i have any other questions. mr. ball. i have one question. on the th of november, an fbi agent named kreutzer advises us in a report that he talked to you. do you remember that? mr. norman. yes, sir. mr. ball. you remember? mr. norman. yes; i remember talking to him. i don't know his name. mr. ball. he reports that you told him that you heard a shot and that you stuck your head from the window and looked upward toward the roof but could see nothing because small particles of dirt were falling from above you. did you tell him that? mr. norman. i don't recall telling him that. mr. ball. did you ever put your head out the window? mr. norman. no, sir; i don't remember ever putting my head out the window. mr. ball. and he reports that you stated that two additional shots were fired after you pulled your head back in from the window. do you remember telling him that? mr. norman. no, sir; i don't. mr. ball. i have no further questions. mr. mccloy. have you ever had any difficulty with the law? have you ever been convicted of a crime? mr. norman. no, sir. mr. mccloy. at the time after you heard the shots, did you have any thought that you might run upstairs and see if anybody was up there where the shots were coming from there? mr. norman. no, sir. mr. mccloy. did you feel that it might be dangerous to go upstairs? mr. norman. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. you testified that you had not seen oswald except this one occasion in the morning. did you hear any of your friends or coworkers say whether they had seen oswald on that morning? mr. norman. not until after---- mr. mccloy. after the assassination? mr. norman. yes, sir; that is the only time. mr. belin. off the record. (discussion off the record.) the chairman. did you see brennan down there when you came downstairs? did you come out the front door? mr. norman. yes, sir; i came out the front door and i remember seeing mr. brennan. mr. belin. about how long after the shooting was that? mr. norman. it wasn't very long because--i can't remember the time but it wasn't too long a period of time, and i remember seeing him because he had on a steel helmet, a little steel helmet. representative ford. was he standing with another man and they called you over? mr. norman. i don't know if he was exactly standing with another man, but it was several people standing around there, and i remember him talking and i believe i remember him saying that he saw us when we first went up to the fifth floor window, he saw us then. i believe i heard him say that, but otherwise i don't know if he was standing by. there was quite a few people standing around there. representative ford. you were stopped and mr. brennan made these comments? mr. norman. yes, sir; i remember. representative ford. on the front entrance steps? mr. norman. yes, sir. representative ford. of the depository building? mr. norman. yes. the chairman. then did you go out of the building, away from the building or come back? mr. norman. no, sir; we had to go back inside. the chairman. you had to go back? mr. norman. yes, sir. mr. ball. in other words, you went out in front? mr. norman. yes, sir. mr. ball. and then came back? mr. norman. yes, sir. mr. ball. after you had gone to the first floor? mr. norman. yes, sir. representative ford. did law enforcement officers make you go back or did you do it on your own initiative? mr. norman. i remember, i don't know if this is the only time or not, but i remember the law enforcement saying not to let anybody leave from the building and i can't remember if that is the time we went back in the building or before or what. mr. ball. who did you go out with? mr. norman. i know james jarman and i went out. i can't remember. representative ford. may i ask did we get into the testimony enough of his background and biography? mr. ball. clear from where he was born, through high school and all his jobs through high school. he is years old, married, and never been in any trouble in his life. i think that is all. mr. mccloy. thank you, mr. norman. the chairman. thank you very much for coming. off the record. (discussion off the record.) testimony of james jarman, jr. mr. belin. chief justice warren, this is mr. jarman. the chairman. how do you do. glad to see you. mr. belin. congressman ford---- mr. mccloy. would you hold up your right hand. do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give in this case will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. jarman. i do. mr. ball. the statement has been read to you as to the purpose of your examination before the commission? mr. jarman. yes, sir. mr. ball. hasn't it, mr. jarman? mr. jarman. yes. mr. ball. state your name, please? mr. jarman. james jarman, junior. mr. ball. what do they call you, junior? mr. jarman. junior. mr. ball. where do you live? mr. jarman. echo. mr. ball. are you married? mr. jarman. yes. mr. ball. what is your age? mr. jarman. . mr. ball. where were you born? mr. jarman. dallas, tex. mr. ball. have you lived there all your life? mr. jarman. yes; i have. mr. ball. you still live there? mr. jarman. yes. mr. ball. and did you go to school in dallas? mr. jarman. yes; i did. mr. ball. how far did you go through school? mr. jarman. to the th grade and went to california in and stayed there for about a year. mr. ball. what did you do in california? mr. jarman. i was living with my aunt at the time. mr. ball. did you work? mr. jarman. no; i was still in school. mr. ball. what school did you go to? mr. jarman. alameda high. mr. ball. then where did you go after you came back, after you left california? mr. jarman. i came back to dallas. mr. ball. did you go to school any more? mr. jarman. no, i went into service. mr. ball. what year did you go in the service? mr. jarman. . mr. ball. how long were you in the service? mr. jarman. i was in the service up until . mr. ball. what service? mr. jarman. u.s. army. mr. ball. and did you enlist in ? mr. jarman. yes. mr. ball. enlisted? mr. jarman. yes. mr. ball. did years in the army? mr. jarman. yes; i did. mr. ball. did you receive an honorable discharge from the army? mr. jarman. yes. mr. ball. and then what did you do? mr. jarman. i came out and stayed out for about until july of . mr. ball. then what? mr. jarman. and reenlisted in the service again. mr. ball. how long did you stay in the army this time? mr. jarman. until . mr. ball. and were you discharged then? mr. jarman. yes, i was. mr. ball. did you get an honorable discharge? mr. jarman. yes, sir. mr. ball. and what did you do after that? mr. jarman. well, i started working at the texas school book depository for about months after. mr. ball. after you got out of the army? mr. jarman. yes. mr. ball. you are still there; are you? mr. jarman. yes, sir. mr. ball. was there any period of time since to that you didn't work there? mr. jarman. yes. mr. ball. how many times? mr. jarman. i started in . i worked from august up until november, and i was laid off until december the same year and i started back again and i worked up until i believe, or , and i quit there and went to parkland hospital. from there i went back to the depository. and i got laid off again and i went to bakers hotel, and i think it was in i went back to the depository and i have been there ever since. mr. ball. what was your job at the depository in november of , last fall? mr. jarman. checker. mr. ball. what does a checker do? mr. jarman. he checks various orders, books and things that go out to different schools. mr. ball. do the order fillers bring the books down to where you have your---- mr. jarman. right. mr. ball. on a table. you have a table? mr. jarman. i have a table with a scale and i weigh these books up and put the upholstery on them and put them on a little conveyor and the wrappers wrap them or pack them, whichever one it may be. mr. ball. did you know lee oswald? mr. jarman. only as a coworker. mr. ball. did you ever talk to him while he was working there? mr. jarman. i have had him to correct orders at various times. that is about all. mr. ball. did you ever talk to him about politics? mr. jarman. no. mr. ball. religion? mr. jarman. no. mr. ball. anything at all? mr. jarman. not until november the d. mr. ball. not until that day? mr. jarman. not until that day. mr. ball. did oswald have any friends there? mr. jarman. well, not that i know of. mr. ball. did he have any close friend that he would eat lunch with every day? mr. jarman. no, sir; not that i know of. mr. ball. did you notice whether oswald brought his lunch most of the time or bought his lunch most of the time? mr. jarman. most of the time he brought his lunch. mr. ball. most of the time he brought his lunch? mr. jarman. yes. mr. ball. did you ever see him buy his lunch? mr. jarman. well, occasionally. i don't think so. mr. ball. i don't understand. mr. jarman. i mean sometimes he would go out of the building. one time i know in particular that he went out, but he didn't buy any lunch. mr. ball. there is a catering service that comes by the building every morning at o'clock, isn't there? mr. jarman. yes, sir. mr. ball. did you ever see him buy his lunch from this catering service? mr. jarman. i think once or twice he did. mr. ball. did you ever see him when he was eating his lunch? mr. jarman. yes. mr. ball. where? mr. jarman. sometimes in the, as we called it, domino room, and again over by the coffee table where they make coffee. mr. ball. is that the first floor? mr. jarman. that is the first floor. mr. ball. now on november , what time did you get to work? mr. jarman. about minutes after . mr. ball. was oswald there when you got there? mr. jarman. yes, sir. mr. ball. where did you see him the first time? mr. jarman. well, he was on the first floor filling orders. mr. ball. did you bring your lunch that day? mr. jarman. no, sir; i didn't. mr. ball. what did you do about lunch that day? mr. jarman. i got a sandwich off the carrying truck. mr. ball. about what time of day? mr. jarman. it was about or a little after , maybe. mr. ball. where did you put it, keep it until lunch? mr. jarman. in the domino room. mr. ball. where in the domino room? mr. jarman. well, they have two little windows, they have two sets of windows in there and i put it in the window. mr. ball. did you talk to oswald that morning? mr. jarman. i did. mr. ball. when? mr. jarman. i had him to correct an order. i don't know exactly what time it was. mr. ball. oh, approximately. nine, ten? mr. jarman. it was around, it was between eight and nine, i would say. mr. ball. between and ? mr. jarman. between minutes after and . mr. ball. you had him correct an order? mr. jarman. yes, sir. mr. ball. did you talk to him again that morning? mr. jarman. yes, sir. i talked to him again later on that morning. mr. ball. about what time? mr. jarman. it was between : and o'clock, i believe. mr. ball. where were you when you talked to him? mr. jarman. in between two rows of bins. mr. ball. on what floor? mr. jarman. on the first floor. mr. ball. and what was said by him and by you? mr. jarman. well, he was standing up in the window and i went to the window also, and he asked me what were the people gathering around on the corner for, and i told him that the president was supposed to pass that morning, and he asked me did i know which way he was coming, and i told him, yes; he probably come down main and turn on houston and then back again on elm. then he said, "oh, i see," and that was all. mr. ball. did you talk to him again? mr. jarman. no, sir. mr. ball. what time did you quit for lunch? mr. jarman. it was right about minutes to . mr. ball. what did you do when you quit for lunch? mr. jarman. went in the rest room and washed up. mr. ball. then what did you do? mr. jarman. went and got my sandwich and went up in the lounge and got me a soda pop. mr. ball. where is the lounge? mr. jarman. on the second floor. mr. ball. on the second floor? mr. jarman. yes. mr. ball. then where did you go after you got your soda pop? mr. jarman. came back and went down to the window. mr. ball. what window? mr. jarman. where oswald and i was talking. mr. ball. where? mr. jarman. between those two rows of bins. mr. ball. where oswald and you had been talking? mr. jarman. yes. mr. ball. what did you do there? mr. jarman. i was eating part of my sandwich there, and then i came back out and as i was walking across the floor i ate the rest of it going toward the domino room. mr. ball. you say you ate the rest of it when? mr. jarman. walking around on the first floor there. mr. ball. did you sit down at the window when you ate part of your sandwich? mr. jarman. no; i was standing. mr. ball. and did you have the pop in your hand, too? mr. jarman. yes; i had a sandwich in one hand and pop in the other. mr. ball. you say you wandered around, you mean on the first floor? mr. jarman. on the first floor. mr. ball. were you with anybody when you were at the window? did you talk to anybody? mr. jarman. no; i did not. mr. ball. were you with anybody when you were walking around finishing your sandwich? mr. jarman. no; i wasn't. i was trying to get through so i could get out on the street. mr. ball. did you see lee oswald? mr. jarman. no; i didn't. mr. ball. after his arrest, he stated to a police officer that he had had lunch with you. did you have lunch with him? mr. jarman. no, sir; i didn't. mr. ball. when you finished your sandwich and your bottle of pop, what did you do? mr. jarman. i throwed the paper that i had the sandwich in in the box over close to the telephone and i took the pop bottle and put it in the case over by the dr. pepper machine. mr. ball. and then what did you do? mr. jarman. then i went out in front of the building. mr. ball. with who? mr. jarman. harold norman, bonnie ray, and danny arce and myself. mr. ball. you say bonnie ray williams? mr. jarman. bonnie ray williams. mr. ball. do you remember him going with you? mr. jarman. no; i am sorry. excuse me, but it was harold norman and myself and daniel arce. mr. ball. what about billy lovelady? mr. jarman. i didn't go out with them. they came out later. mr. ball. did you see billy lovelady out there? mr. jarman. yes, sir. mr. ball. where was he? mr. jarman. standing on the stairway as you go out the front door. mr. ball. where did you stand? mr. jarman. i was standing over to the right in front of the building going toward the west. mr. ball. were you on the sidewalk or curb? mr. jarman. on the sidewalk. mr. ball. the sidewalk in front of the texas school book depository building? mr. jarman. yes, sir. mr. ball. how long did you stand there? mr. jarman. well, until about : , between : and : . mr. ball. who do you remember was standing near you that worked with you in the book depository? mr. jarman. harold norman and charles givens and daniel arce. mr. ball. what about mr. truly? mr. jarman. he wasn't standing close to me. mr. ball. did you see him? mr. jarman. yes, sir. mr. ball. who was he with? mr. jarman. he was with the vice president of the company. mr. ball. what is his name? mr. jarman. o. v. campbell. mr. ball. where were they standing? mr. jarman. they were standing at the corner of the building in front of the mail boxes. mr. ball. you left there, didn't you, and went some place? mr. jarman. yes, sir. mr. ball. with whom? mr. jarman. harold norman and myself. mr. ball. where did you go? mr. jarman. we went around to the back of the building up to the fifth floor. mr. ball. you say you went around. you mean you went around the building? mr. jarman. right. mr. ball. you didn't go through and cross the first floor? mr. jarman. no, sir; there was too many people standing on the stairway there, so we decided to go around. mr. ball. you went in the back door? mr. jarman. right. mr. ball. that would be the north entrance to the building, wouldn't it? mr. jarman. right. mr. ball. did you take an elevator or the stairs? mr. jarman. we took the elevator. mr. ball. which elevator? mr. jarman. the west side elevator. mr. ball. that is the one you use a punch button on, isn't it? mr. jarman. right. mr. ball. where did you go? mr. jarman. to the fifth floor. mr. ball. why did you go to the fifth floor? mr. jarman. we just decided to go to the fifth floor. mr. ball. was there any reason why you should go to the fifth floor any more than the fourth or the sixth? mr. jarman. no. mr. ball. did you know who made the suggestion you go to the fifth floor? mr. jarman. well, i don't know if it was myself or hank. mr. ball. when you got there was there anybody on the fifth floor? mr. jarman. no, sir. mr. ball. what did you do when you got to the fifth floor? mr. jarman. we got out the elevator and pulled the gate down. that was in case somebody wanted to use it. then we went to the front of the building, which is on the south side, and raised the windows. mr. ball. which windows did you raise? mr. jarman. well, harold raised the first window to the east side of the building, and i went to the second rear windows and raised, counting the windows, it would be the fourth one. mr. ball. it would be the fourth window? mr. jarman. yes. mr. ball. did somebody join you then? mr. jarman. yes, sir; a few minutes later. mr. ball. who joined you? mr. jarman. bonnie ray williams. mr. ball. and where did he stand or sit? mr. jarman. he took the window next to harold norman. mr. ball. i show you a picture which is , a picture of the texas school book depository building. can you show me the window before which you were standing and out of which you were looking? mr. jarman. this window here. mr. ball. it is marked w on this picture. where was harold norman, the window out of which harold norman was looking? mr. jarman. he was first right here. mr. ball. that is the one marked with a red arrow? mr. jarman. yes. mr. ball. where was bonnie ray williams? mr. jarman. bonnie ray williams was in this one. mr. ball. next to the window of norman, is that right? mr. jarman. yes, sir. mr. ball. was---- mr. belin. what exhibit is that? mr. ball. that is . this is . you recognize those two pictures? mr. jarman. yes, sir. mr. ball. who are they? mr. jarman. harold norman and bonnie ray williams. mr. ball. now the other day you went up to the fifth floor of the texas state school book depository with me and a photographer, and had your picture taken, did you not? mr. jarman. yes. mr. ball. and what did i ask you to do before the picture was taken? mr. jarman. to try to get in the same position that we were the day the assassination was. mr. ball. and did you do that? mr. jarman. yes, sir. we tried to the best of our knowledge. mr. ball. i have a picture here i would like to have marked as commission exhibit . mr. mccloy. it is so marked. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. ball. is that your picture? mr. jarman. yes, sir. mr. ball. taken last friday afternoon, march th, is that right? mr. jarman. yes, sir. mr. ball. now does it or does it not show your position at about the time, as you were watching the president's motorcade go by? mr. jarman. yes, sir; that is the position i had as it was going by. mr. ball. you are on your knees? mr. jarman. right, sir. mr. ball. i show this to each member of the commission. this is a new exhibit. , you recognize that picture? mr. jarman. yes, sir. mr. ball. what does it show? mr. jarman. it shows that i was on my knees as the motorcade was passing. mr. ball. and shows the other two men? mr. jarman. as the motorcade was passing. mr. ball. it shows their position? mr. jarman. at the time. mr. ball. at the time the motorcade was passing? mr. jarman. right, sir. mr. ball. this has been introduced into evidence. i don't believe you have seen that, congressman. representative ford. this is yourself here? mr. jarman. yes. representative ford. the one closest to an individual looking at the photograph. mr. jarman. yes. mr. ball. after the motorcade passed, what happened? mr. jarman. after the motorcade turned, going west on elm, then there was a loud shot, or backfire, as i thought it was then--i thought it was a backfire. mr. ball. you thought it was what? mr. jarman. a backfire or an officer giving a salute to the president. and then at that time i didn't, you know, think too much about it. and then the second shot was fired, and that is when the people started falling on the ground and the motorcade car jumped forward, and then the third shot was fired right behind the second one. mr. ball. were you still on your knees looking up? mr. jarman. well, after the third shot was fired, i think i got up and i ran over to harold norman and bonnie ray williams, and told them, i said, i told them that it wasn't a backfire or anything, that somebody was shooting at the president. mr. ball. and then did they say anything? mr. jarman. hank said, harold norman, rather, said that he thought the shots had came from above us, and i noticed that bonnie ray had a few debris in his head. it was sort of white stuff, or something, and i told him not to brush it out, but he did anyway. mr. ball. he had some white what, like plaster? mr. jarman. like some come off a brick or plaster or something. mr. ball. did norman say anything else that you remember? mr. jarman. he said that he was sure that the shot came from inside the building because he had been used to guns and all that, and he said it didn't sound like it was too far off anyway. and so we ran down to the west side of the building. mr. ball. did norman say anything about hearing cartridges or ejection or anything like that, do you remember? mr. jarman. that was after we got down to the west side of the building. mr. ball. after you got down where? mr. jarman. to the west side of the building. mr. ball. down the west side? mr. jarman. right. mr. ball. now you ran down to the west side of the building, did you? mr. jarman. yes, sir. mr. ball. and when you were up there you showed me the window to which you ran, didn't you? mr. jarman. yes, sir. mr. ball. the picture was taken of you at that place? mr. jarman. yes, sir. mr. ball. when you ran down there was the window open or closed? mr. jarman. it was closed. mr. ball. and who opened it? mr. jarman. i did. mr. ball. and what did you do after you opened the window? mr. jarman. i leaned out and the officers and various people was running across the tracks, toward the tracks over there where they had the passenger trains, and all, boxcars and things. mr. ball. i show you . what does that show? mr. jarman. that shows me leaning out the window and bonnie ray and harold norman was over to the side of me. mr. ball. what window? mr. jarman. the window on the west side of the building. mr. ball. is that the one to which you ran after you heard the shots? mr. jarman. yes, sir. mr. ball. and you looked out that window? mr. jarman. yes, sir. mr. ball. how did you happen to run to that window? mr. jarman. well, i wanted to see what was going on mostly, because that was after the motorcade car had took off, and i thought they had stopped under the underpass, but they hadn't. so they went on around the bend, and after i couldn't see from there i ran to another, the second window. mr. ball. that second one you ran to, you pointed that out to me last friday, did you? mr. jarman. yes, sir. mr. ball. and the picture was taken of that, is that right? mr. jarman. yes, sir. mr. ball. and that window is on which side? mr. jarman. on the west side of the building also. mr. ball. i show you . is that a picture of the west window? mr. jarman. yes, sir. mr. ball. and what did you see when you looked out that window? mr. jarman. when i looked out that window, i saw the policemen and the secret agents, the fbi men, searching the boxcar yard and the passenger train and things like that. mr. ball. where were you when you heard harold norman say something that he had heard cartridges? mr. jarman. all that took place right here in this corner after we had went to this window. mr. ball. this corner. what corner do you mean? mr. jarman. in the corner of the building right after we had looked out this window. mr. ball. which corner? mr. jarman. right here on the west side of the building. mr. ball. on the west side of the building? mr. jarman. right. mr. ball. and would that be the window that is shown in , or the window that is shown in ? mr. jarman. it was between the two windows. mr. ball. between the two? mr. jarman. as we was going to this window. mr. ball. to that window? mr. jarman. yes. mr. ball. what did you hear him say? mr. jarman. he said it was something sounded like cartridges hitting the floor, and he could hear the action of the rifle, i mean the bolt, as it were pulled back, or something like that. mr. ball. had you heard anything like that? mr. jarman. no, sir; i hadn't. mr. ball. had you heard any person running upstairs? mr. jarman. no, sir. mr. ball. or any steps upstairs? mr. jarman. no, sir. mr. ball. any noise at all up there? mr. jarman. none. mr. ball. i have here a diagram which is . this is the southeast corner of the building on this diagram. do you recognize that? mr. jarman. yes, sir. mr. ball. this is the elm street side? mr. jarman. yes, sir. mr. ball. will you point out the window to which you three boys ran when you looked out, you opened the window and looked out towards the---- mr. jarman. this one here. mr. ball. the one marked y on this diagram? mr. jarman. yes. mr. ball. is that right? mr. jarman. this one right here. mr. ball. that one marked y. mr. jarman. right. mr. ball. where is the window to which you went afterwards to look out when you saw the police and other agents searching boxcars? mr. jarman. i went to the second window from the south side of the building on the west. mr. ball. is that the one marked z? mr. jarman. yes. mr. ball. at that time could you see the stairwell when you stood there at z? mr. jarman. no, sir; i couldn't. mr. ball. why? mr. jarman. because there is a row of bins there with books in them. mr. ball. they block your view? mr. jarman. yes, sir. mr. ball. and did we conduct an experiment there to see how much you could see from z? mr. jarman. yes, sir. mr. ball. i show you a picture, . do you remember standing in line near the stairwell? mr. jarman. yes, sir. mr. ball. that is you on the end, isn't it? mr. jarman. right. mr. ball. on the end, the farthest from the stairwell? mr. jarman. yes, sir. mr. ball. and we took a picture, is that right? mr. jarman. yes, sir. mr. ball. of that area. does that show the bins? mr. jarman. that shows the bins. mr. ball. i am now referring to . mr. jarman. yes, sir. mr. ball. now was there any part of the stairwell that you could see when you were along this west wall? mr. jarman. no, sir. mr. ball. could you see the elevators? mr. jarman. i imagine if i had looked over, but i didn't. mr. ball. do you remember any of the elevators coming up or down as you were standing there at the west window? mr. jarman. no, sir. mr. ball. looking toward the railroad track? mr. jarman. no, sir. mr. ball. do you remember seeing mr. truly? mr. jarman. no, sir. mr. ball. or did you see a motorcycle officer come up? mr. jarman. no, sir. mr. ball. or did you hear the elevator go up? mr. jarman. no, sir. mr. ball. what did you men do after you looked out the window toward the railroad tracks from the west window? mr. jarman. well, after norman had made his statement that he had heard the cartridges hit the floor and this bolt action, i told him we'd better get the hell from up here. mr. ball. did anybody suggest you go up to the sixth floor? mr. jarman. no, sir. mr. ball. and where did you go then? mr. jarman. down. we ran to the elevator first, but the elevator had gone down. mr. ball. where did you go? mr. jarman. then we ran to the stairway and ran downstairs, and we paused a few minutes on four. mr. ball. which elevator did you run to? mr. jarman. to the elevator on the west side. mr. ball. on the west. that wasn't there? mr. jarman. no, sir. mr. ball. when you went downstairs, what did you see on the first floor? mr. jarman. when we got downstairs on the first floor, i think the first one i seen was eddie piper. mr. ball. eddie piper works there, does he? mr. jarman. yes, sir. mr. ball. and who else did you see? mr. jarman. and i ran into roy edward lewis, which is also another employee. mr. ball. did you see anybody else there? mr. jarman. no, sir. i ran, then we ran to the front door. mr. ball. you ran to the front door? mr. jarman. yes, sir; and out on the street. mr. ball. you and who? mr. jarman. harold norman. mr. ball. you and harold went out there? mr. jarman. yes, sir. mr. ball. did you ever see a fellow named brennan? mr. jarman. yes, sir. mr. ball. where did you see him first? mr. jarman. he was talking to a police officer. mr. ball. how was he dressed? mr. jarman. he was dressed in construction clothes. mr. ball. anything else, any other way to describe him? mr. jarman. well, he had on a silverlike helmet. mr. ball. hard-hat? mr. jarman. yes, sir. mr. ball. did you stay out there very long? mr. jarman. just a few minutes. mr. ball. then where did you go? mr. jarman. we heard him talking to this officer about that he had heard these shots and he had seen the barrel of the gun sticking out the window, and he said that the shots came from inside the building, and i told the officer that i believed that they came from inside the building also, and then he rushed us back inside. mr. ball. the officer did? mr. jarman. yes, sir. mr. ball. how did you know this fellow was brennan? mr. jarman. well, at that time i didn't know him at all. mr. ball. have you learned that since? mr. jarman. yes, sir. mr. ball. who told you that the man in the hard-hat was brennan? mr. jarman. well, they have had him down there at the building a couple of times. mr. ball. were you taken to the police station? mr. jarman. yes, sir. mr. ball. did you make a statement? mr. jarman. yes, sir. mr. ball. when? mr. jarman. that saturday morning. mr. ball. the next day? mr. jarman. yes, sir. mr. ball. how long did you stay in the building, the texas school book depository building that afternoon? mr. jarman. i'd say it was somewhere between two and two-thirty when they turned us loose and told us to go home. mr. ball. when you were there did you notice whether any of the employees were missing? mr. jarman. yes, sir. mr. ball. when did you notice, and who was missing? mr. jarman. when we started to line up to show our identification, quite a few of us asked where was lee. that is what we called him, and he wasn't anywhere around. we started asking each other, have you seen lee oswald, and they said no. mr. ball. was there anybody else missing? mr. jarman. yes. mr. ball. who. mr. jarman. charles douglas givens, i believe. mr. ball. charles givens? mr. jarman. yes, sir. mr. ball. anybody else? mr. jarman. i can't recall. mr. mccloy. had givens been in the depository that morning? mr. jarman. yes, sir; he had. mr. mccloy. he had been there? mr. jarman. yes, sir. mr. ball. did givens come back later? mr. jarman. he didn't come back to the building until they picked him up. mr. ball. he did come back to the building before you left, did he? mr. jarman. no, sir. mr. ball. he didn't? mr. jarman. no, sir. mr. ball. he was not there when you left? mr. jarman. no, sir. mr. ball. when you were on the fifth floor, did you pay any attention to whether or not there was noise above you, before the shots were fired? mr. jarman. no, sir; i didn't. mr. ball. in other words, if there was noise up there--let's put it this way. if there had been any noise up there, you didn't notice it? mr. jarman. no, sir; i didn't. mr. ball. now after the shooting, did you hear any noise from upstairs? mr. jarman. no, sir. mr. ball. did you listen for any? mr. jarman. no, sir. mr. ball. how long was it before you ran down to the west end, from the time of the shots until you ran down to the west end, about how much time do you think it was? mr. jarman. after the third shot was fired i would say it was about a minute. mr. mccloy. you have had military experience, haven't you? mr. jarman. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. and you can recognize rifle shots when you hear them? mr. jarman. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. but you didn't hear, you didn't catch the sound of the bolt moving? mr. jarman. no, sir. mr. mccloy. did you see the president actually hit by the bullets? mr. jarman. no, sir. i couldn't say that i saw him actually hit, but after the second shot, i presumed that he was, because i had my eye on his car from the time it came down houston until the time it started toward the freeway underpass. mr. mccloy. you saw him crumple, you saw him fall, did you? mr. jarman. i saw him lean his head. representative ford. you actually saw the car lurch forward, did you? mr. jarman. yes, sir. representative ford. that is a distinct impression? mr. jarman. yes. representative ford. and you had followed it as it turned from main on to houston and followed it as it turned from houston on to elm? mr. jarman. right, sir. representative ford. had your eye on the car all the time? mr. jarman. yes, sir. representative ford. where did you think the sound of the first shot came from? do you have a distinct impression of that? mr. jarman. well, it sounded, i thought at first it had came from below. that is what i thought. representative ford. as you looked out the window and you were looking at the president's car. mr. jarman. yes, sir. representative ford. did you have a distinct impression as to whether the sound came from your left or from your right? mr. jarman. i am sure it came from the left. representative ford. but your first reaction, that is was from below. mr. jarman. yes, sir. representative ford. when the second shot came, do you have any different recollection? mr. jarman. well, they all sounded just about the same. representative ford. you distinctly recall three shots? mr. jarman. yes, sir. representative ford. and at what point did you get up from where you were on your knees in the window? mr. jarman. when the motorcar picked up speed. representative ford. was this after what you thought was the third shot? mr. jarman. the third shot; yes. representative ford. mr. mccloy said you had been in the army years, two -year hitches. was there any doubt in your mind that this was a gunshot, either one of the three? mr. jarman. not after the second shot. i didn't have any doubt in my mind then. representative ford. when did you first learn of the president's motorcade route? mr. jarman. that morning. representative ford. friday morning, november d? mr. jarman. yes, sir. representative ford. how did you find out about it? mr. jarman. the foreman of the employees on the first floor. representative ford. what is his name? mr. jarman. william shelley was standing up talking to mrs. lee. representative ford. to mrs. lee? mr. jarman. miss lee, or mrs. lee, i think, and he was discussing to her about the president coming, asked her was she going to stand out there and see him pass. representative ford. about what time friday morning was this? mr. jarman. i imagine it would be about--i think it was between : and : . i am not sure. representative ford. you hadn't read about it in the papers the night before or that morning? mr. jarman. no, sir. representative ford. when did you have this conversation with lee oswald, where he asked you--you told him that the motorcade was coming by the school book depository building? mr. jarman. it was some time that morning, between : and : . representative ford. this was after you heard mr. shelley and miss or mrs. lee talk? mr. jarman. discuss it--yes. representative ford. did oswald ask you, or did you initiate the conversation and tell oswald of the route? mr. jarman. he asked me. representative ford. what was his reaction? mr. jarman. after i had told him the route that the president probably would take, he just said, "oh, i see" and went back to filling orders. representative ford. you testified earlier that you were standing on the steps or in front of the school depository building prior to the president's motorcade coming by the building. mr. jarman. no, sir. i was standing on the sidewalk. representative ford. but in front of the building? mr. jarman. in front of the building. representative ford. then you said you went around the building. mr. jarman. yes. representative ford. what route did you take? did you go down elm or did you go down houston? mr. jarman. i went to the corner of the building facing elm, and turned going north on houston. representative ford. can you turn around and--here is the main entrance on elm street. and you were standing out on the sidewalk more or less where? mr. jarman. right here. representative ford. in which direction did you go then? mr. jarman. this way. representative ford. you went by the front to the corner of houston and elm, and then down houston towards the loading dock? mr. jarman. yes, sir. representative ford. and where did you get on the elevator? mr. jarman. we walked around to the back entrance and went through this door here, and this elevator here was up on six, i believe. and we walked around the elevator and took the west elevator up. representative ford. how could you tell this elevator was at six? mr. jarman. because after we got around to the other side we looked up. representative ford. you could see it was on six? mr. jarman. yes. representative ford. this was about what time? mr. jarman. that was about : or : . representative ford. you got off the fifth floor? mr. jarman. yes, sir. representative ford. as you rode the elevator, you noticed the other one was on the sixth floor? mr. jarman. right, sir. representative ford. have you ever been in any trouble with the police or did you ever have any disciplinary troubles in the army? mr. jarman. no, sir. mr. ball. how was oswald dressed that morning when you saw him at work? do you remember that? mr. jarman. i don't exactly recall how he was dressed. i think he had on some dress pants. but i didn't notice the color. mr. ball. what kind of pants? mr. jarman. some kind of these slacks you wear. mr. ball. what kind of a shirt? mr. jarman. ivy leagues, i believe. mr. ball. what kind of a shirt, do you know? mr. jarman. he never hardly worked in a shirt. he worked in a t-shirt. mr. ball. do you remember if he had a t-shirt on that day? mr. jarman. yes; he had on a t-shirt that morning. mr. ball. i have no further questions. mr. mccloy. did you see at any time oswald that morning with a bundle or package of any kind? mr. jarman. no, sir. the chairman. when did you first come to the conclusion that any of the shots came from up above you? mr. jarman. after we had ran down to this last window on the west side of the building, and we was discussing it. and then after i got to thinking about all the debris on bonnie ray's head, and i thought about that, also. and so i told hank, i say, "that shot probably did come from upstairs, up over us," and hank said, "i know it did, because i could hear the action of the bolt, and i could hear the cartridges drop on the floor." and i told him there we better get the hell from up here. the chairman. now, tell me, when you went downstairs--when you were downstairs and went out the first time, that is, just before you met brennan, did anyone stop you as you went out the building? mr. jarman. no, sir. the chairman. you could have gone right away if you wanted to, could you? mr. jarman. yes, sir. the chairman. and then you happened to run across brennan, and had this conversation with him? mr. jarman. no. he ran up to the police officer and was telling him about the man sticking a gun out the window. and i heard him telling the officer that. and i told him that i thought the shots came from inside, too. the chairman. i see. are you a married man? mr. jarman. yes, sir. the chairman. do you have a family? mr. jarman. yes, sir; three children. the chairman. i think that is all. thank you very much for coming and helping us out. we appreciate it very much. mr. jarman. we are glad to do it. mr. ball. mr. chairman, we would like to recall mr. brennan. testimony of howard leslie brennan resumed mr. belin. mr. brennan, you are the same howard leslie brennan who testifled this morning here? mr. brennan. yes, sir. mr. belin. do you know a george murray, of the national broadcasting co.? mr. brennan. i do not. mr. belin. have you ever worked for the union terminal co.---- mr. mccloy. you are still under oath, you realize. mr. brennan. yes, sir. mr. belin. have you ever worked for the union terminal co. in dallas? mr. brennan. i have not. mr. belin. did you ever state to anyone that you heard shots from opposite the texas school book depository and saw smoke and paper wadding come out of boxes on a slope below the railroad trestle at the time of the assassination? did you ever say that or that, in substance, to anyone? mr. brennan. i did not. mr. belin. that is all. mr. brennan. is there another howard brennan? mr. belin. well, sir; we don't know. we wanted to know whether or not you ever made this statement to anyone. mr. brennan. no, sir. the chairman. thank you very much, mr. brennan. mr. brennan. i would like to ask a question off the record. the chairman. off the record. (discussion off the record.) testimony of roy sansom truly mr. belin. next we will call mr. truly. mr. mccloy. will you raise your right hand, and stand? do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give in this case will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. truly. i do. mr. mccloy. i would like to state, mr. truly, what the purpose of this hearing is. this is to hear the testimony of several witnesses, or people close to the event of the assassination of the president, to get as much knowledge as we can of the facts concerning that event, which largely centers around the school book depository and the people in it, on the afternoon of november d. will you state for the record your full name? mr. truly. roy sansom truly. mr. belin. mr. truly, where do you live? mr. truly. i live at jade drive, dallas, tex. mr. belin. are you originally from dallas? mr. truly. no. i have been in dallas since . mr. belin. where were you born, sir? mr. truly. hubbard, tex. mr. belin. and what was your birth date? mr. truly. august , . mr. belin. mr. truly, where did you go to school? mr. truly. i finished high school at hubbard. mr. belin. in texas? mr. truly. in texas. mr. belin. and what did you do after you finished high school? mr. truly. well, i came to dallas in the fall of that year and i have been there ever since. mr. belin. for whom did you become employed when you came to dallas? mr. truly. i believe--my father ran a cafe here in dallas, and i worked with him a short while. and then in the fall of , i went to work for higginbotham, bailey, logan co. mr. belin. what business is that? mr. truly. that is wholesale drygoods. mr. belin. and how long did you work with them? mr. truly. i believe a little less than a year. mr. belin. and then where did you go? mr. truly. i went to work for national casket co. mr. belin. and about how long did you work for them? mr. truly. i couldn't be certain. several years--maybe or or years. mr. belin. and in what capacity did you work for them? mr. truly. well, i worked in the cloth room, learning the trade of putting in the drapery and things in the caskets. mr. belin. and from there, where did you go? mr. truly. i worked a short time at the dallas coffin co., several months. it wasn't very long. and i left there and during the depression i worked for several things. i drove a laundry truck off and on for a couple of years. (at this point, representative ford withdrew from the hearing room.) mr. truly. i believe i even worked for the wpa back there in those days. mr. belin. all right. and after the depression, where did you start working then? mr. truly. i went to work for the texas school book depository in july . mr. belin. and have you been employed by the texas school book depository since that date, since july ? mr. truly. that is right. (at this point, mr. dulles entered the hearing room.) mr. belin. in what capacity have you worked for that company? mr. truly. first, when i first went to work for this company, i had charge of the miscellaneous order department, which is actually a one-man operation. i filled orders for books other than state-adopted textbooks. mr. belin. and then what? mr. truly. i worked on through that time until the present time. during the war i worked in the north american plant at arlington. mr. belin. that is the north american aviation? mr. truly. north american aviation plant at arlington, for around months, at night. but i continued to hold my job. well, i would go down to work , , hours a day. shortly after that, i took charge of all the shipping. well, i have been superintendent of the operation since some time in the late . mr. belin. you have been superintendent of the texas school book depository. and do you have any other positions with the company at this time? mr. truly. i am a director--i am a member of the board of directors of the texas school book depository. mr. belin. is that a state organization or a private company? mr. truly. it is a private corporation. mr. belin. mr. truly, when did you first hear of the name of lee harvey oswald? mr. truly. i heard the name on or about october th. mr. belin. of what year? mr. truly. of . mr. belin. and from whom did you hear the name? could you just relate to the commission the circumstances, if you would, please? mr. truly. i received a phone call from a lady in irving who said her name was mrs. paine. mr. belin. all right. what did mrs. paine say, and what did you say? mr. truly. she said, "mr. truly"--words to this effect--you understand--"mr. truly, you don't know who i am but i have a neighbor whose brother works for you. i don't know what his name is. but he tells his sister that you are very busy. and i am just wondering if you can use another man," or words to that effect. and i told mrs.--she said, "i have a fine young man living here with his wife and baby, and his wife is expecting a baby--another baby, in a few days, and he needs work desperately." now, this is not absolutely--this is as near as i can remember the conversation over the telephone. and i told mrs. paine that--to send him down, and i would talk to him--that i didn't have anything in mind for him of a permanent nature, but if he was suited, we could possibly use him for a brief time. mr. belin. was there anything else from that conversation that you remember at all, or not? mr. truly. no. i believe that was the first and the last time that i talked to mrs. paine. in fact, i could not remember her name afterwards until i saw her name in print, and then it popped into my mind that this was the lady who called me. mr. belin. all right. anything else on--what was this--october th--about lee harvey oswald? mr. truly. yes, sir; i am sure it was on october th. mr. belin. anything else you can remember about lee harvey oswald on that day? mr. truly. she told me she would tell him to come down and see me. so he came in, introduced himself to me, and i took him in my office and interviewed him. he seemed to be quiet and well mannered. i gave him an application to fill out, which he did. mr. belin. did he fill it out in front of you, or not? mr. truly. yes; he did. and he told me--i asked him about experience that he had had, or where he had worked, and he said he had just served his term in the marine corps and had received an honorable discharge, and he listed some things of an office nature that he had learned to do in the marines. i questioned him about any past activities. i asked him if he had ever had any trouble with the police, and he said, no. so thinking that he was just out of the marines, i didn't check any further back. i didn't have anything of a permanent nature in mind for him. he looked like a nice young fellow to me--he was quiet and well mannered. he used the word "sir", you know, which a lot of them don't do at this time. so i told him if he would come to work on the morning of the th, it was the beginning of a new pay period. so he filled out his withholding slip, with the exception of the number of dependents. he asked me if i would hold that for or days, that he is expecting a baby momentarily. so some days or so later--i don't remember the exact day--he told me that he had this new baby, and he wanted to add one dependent. he finished filling it out. and i sent it up to mr. campbell who makes out the payroll for the company. mr. belin. now, on october th you saw him fill out the application form for employment in his own writing? mr. truly. yes. mr. belin. you also saw him fill out the withholding slip, except for the number of exemptions, in his own writing, is that correct? mr. truly. yes, sir. mr. belin. any other conversation that you can remember from your meeting on october th? mr. truly. well, he told me that he needed a job. he said he had a wife and child to support. and he also repeated that he was expecting a child in a few days. and i told lee oswald that i had some work, that if he could fit in, of a temporary nature, we could put him on. but i didn't have anything in mind of a permanent job at that time, because i didn't have any openings for a permanent person. and he said he would be glad to have any type of work i would give him, because he did need--and he stressed he really needed a job to support his family. mr. belin. anything else from that conversation on october th? mr. truly. nothing that i can recall, except that he seemed to be grateful that i was giving him the chance of a little extra work, if you want to call it that. he left, and i didn't see him any more until the morning of the th. mr. belin. what were his hours of work to be? mr. truly. his hours were from in the morning until : in the afternoon. his lunch period was from to : . mr. belin. did you have a time clock there that they punch or not? mr. truly. no, sir. mr. belin. the next morning, do you know whether or not he came to work? mr. truly. he came to work the next morning. i told him what his duties were to be--would be filling book orders. and i told mr. shelley, who is on that floor and has charge of the miscellaneous department. now, this particular thing as to whether i called a boy or mr. shelley did--anyway, we put lee oswald with another worker who was experienced in filling orders. this boy showed him the location of the various publishers' stock. he worked with him, it seems to me, like only an hour or two, and then he started filling orders by himself. and from then on he worked alone. he would occasionally ask the other boys where certain stock items were when he couldn't find them. but he was filling small parcel post and a few freight orders for the various schools--as they would come down from the office. mr. belin. well, could you describe how his work progressed as he was working with you? mr. truly. well, he seemed to catch on and learn the location of the stock. we have several thousand titles of books in our warehouse. but he was filling mostly one or two publishers' orders. mr. belin. what publishers were those? mr. truly. the main publisher was scott, foresman and co. now, they have quite a lot of small orders, all through the year. they are one of our biggest publishers. so it kept him busy filling mostly their orders, plus some of the smaller publishers. possibly he filled some of gregg publishing co. and others. but when he would run out of scott, foresman orders, he would pick up other orders that might have had several publishers' books on the same order. incidentally, not only scott, foresman orders were billed separately. there would be other publishers' orders on the same invoice. mr. belin. well, perhaps you might explain to the commission just what exactly the nature of your business is, and how an employee would go about filling orders. mr. truly. we are agents for a number of publishers. we furnish offices for those who desire them in texas. and our business is shipping, inventorying, collecting, doing all the bookkeeping work for the various publishers' books. now, we have--most of the publishers' stock is lined up alphabetically by titles or by stock numbers or code numbers, whichever determines that. and the location of the books--each publisher's books are to themselves. they are not mixed in with several other publishers on the various floors. on the first floor we have bin stock, shelf stock, we fill a lot of small orders from. and then in the basement the same. the fifth and the sixth floor, and part of the seventh floor is overflow stock. it is reserve stock. but the boys have to go to those floors all during the day to pick up stock and bring it to the first floor in order to process and complete the orders for the checker. mr. dulles. what would reserve stock mean? mr. truly. actually it is not reserve stock--it is not surplus either. it is part of our stock. but we can carry a limited amount only on the first floor where we do our shipping. so they may get an order for a hundred copies of a certain book and there may only be or or on the shelf on the first floor. they will have to go upstairs and get a carton or two. and they replenish the first floor stock from that. and many of our freight orders are filled entirely from our reserve stock. and they bring them to the first floor. all orders reach the first floor, where they are checked and processed and packed and shipped from that floor. mr. belin. where, generally, are scott, foresman books kept? mr. truly. on the first floor and the sixth floor. we have a large quantity of their books on the sixth floor. mr. belin. and this is the area where lee harvey oswald worked? mr. truly. that is right. mr. belin. that publisher? mr. truly. that publisher. he had occasion to go to the sixth floor quite a number of times every day, each day, after books. mr. belin. now, when an order would come in, how would it get to the individual employee, so the employee would go out and pick out the books? mr. truly. the orders came into our office and were processed by our girls, priced and billed by the bill clerks, and then were sent down a little chute to the first floor, a little dumbwaiter, regardless of publisher. the boys would take them off of this dumbwaiter and carry them over on to a little table near the checker stand. various ones would sort out the publishers--sort out the orders by publishers. scott foresman could be here, there would be a stock of gregg and southwestern over here, we have a number of small publishers, maybe we would group them altogether. and the boys usually know which particular orders they are supposed to fill from, because they know the books, they can tell. on each order it says, "sf" for scott, foresman on each invoice and so forth. mr. belin. do they just pick up the piece of paper for the order and carry them around with them? mr. truly. that is right. most of them use a clipboard. they may have several orders at a time on the clipboard. that saves them going back to the table continually for one order. these orders amount from anything to $ or $ to $ or $ , on up. but usually if a boy is filling scott, foresman's orders, for instance, and he sees half a dozen over there, he will pick up maybe that many. but during our busy season, when we have stacks and stacks of orders on the table, they don't try to put them all on a clipboard, they take a few at a time--when they go to the sixth floor after stock, they try to be certain what they need for several orders at one trip. mr. belin. who else worked on scott, foresman other than lee harvey oswald? mr. truly. well, i assume that all of our boys, all of our order fillers have worked at some time or other, because when the boys finish up the stocks they are working, the orders they are filling, if there is anything left, regardless of publisher, they go fill it. but scott, foresman was one of our publishers that i would say would be easiest for a new man to learn how to fill. and we have a lot of those orders. you can give a new man those orders, once he understands a little about the alphabetical arrangement, the location of the stock, and he can go ahead and fill orders, and you won't have to keep showing him things. they are easier to fill. usually the boys that fill a lot of the other orders are the boys that have had more experience overall, they have been there some time, and they will know the general location of all the stock, and it is just easier for an experienced man to fill some other orders. mr. belin. when they fill the orders, they go and get the books, and bring them down to your wrapping and mailing section? mr. truly. that is right. and they are checked to see that they are in correct quantities and titles and called for on the order, or the invoice. then they are weighed up on parcel post scales, if they go by parcel post, or they are processed over on the floor if they are big enough for freight. mr. belin. and, as i understand it, they would first look to see if the title would be on the first floor in your bins, and then only if it wasn't on the first floor would they go up to some of the upper floors with your reserve stock, is that correct? mr. truly. that is right. mr. belin. anything else you can think of with regard to the particular nature of the type of work that lee harvey oswald did when he was working for your company? mr. truly. nothing--except that we have occasionally--we would check the number of orders that each boy filled per day, to see if he is doing a day's work. and each invoice which is the billing of the order, has a little section for a checker's number. and the order filler's number. our checker periodically would count at the end of the day the number of orders that each order filler filled that day. we could tell at that time whether some of them were doing much more work than others. and we also kept a list of mistakes that he catches a boy making, such as filling the wrong quantity of books, or the wrong title. we didn't do that every day, because it is a top heavy thing, and if we have to keep a check on your boys all the time, it is not worthwhile. mr. belin. what did you find generally--would you classify lee harvey oswald as an average employee--above average, or below average employee? mr. truly. i would say for the nature of the work and the time he was there, the work that he did was a bit above average. i wasn't on that floor constantly. the boy, from all reports to me, and what i have seen kept working and talked little to anybody else. he just kept moving. and he did a good day's work. mr. belin. what was his pay? mr. truly. $ . an hour. mr. belin. -day week? mr. truly. yes. mr. belin. did he miss many days of work? mr. truly. we had no record of him missing any days. mr. belin. by the way, was your company open on armistice day, november th, or not? if you know. mr. truly. we usually are closed on that day. now, i just cannot remember whether we were closed that day or not. mr. belin. i hand you what has been marked commission exhibit no. , which appears to be a photostatic copy of a document, and i ask you to state if you know what that is. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. truly. this is a copy of the application blank that oswald filled out. i am not familiar with his handwriting, because he didn't do anything that we have records of. all the work that he ever did was put his number or something. mr. belin. well, my first question is this: is this particular form a form of your company? mr. truly. that is one form; yes. we changed it a little bit, and this might have been just one that i pulled out. i can't recall whether it is the one we use now or the one we did use. mr. belin. well, was this a form that you were using at about the time he came for employment? mr. truly. yes. (at this point, representative ford entered the hearing room.) mr. belin. did you see him fill this out? was it in your office or not? mr. truly. yes. he was sitting opposite me, and he filled it out on my desk. mr. belin. he filled this exhibit out on your desk? mr. truly. yes. mr. belin. at this time we offer in evidence exhibit . as yet has not been offered. and i don't know if has been offered or not. but, in the event it has not, we offer that in evidence. mr. mccloy. it may be admitted. (the documents heretofore marked for identification as commission exhibits nos. , , and were received in evidence.) mr. belin. mr. truly, are there any other observations you can give about lee harvey oswald as an employee during the month of october , or during the month of november, prior to november , ? mr. truly. nothing that i can recall. i would speak to him in the morning when i would come through, and i would say, "good morning, lee," and he would say, "good morning, sir." i would ask him how he was. occasionally i would ask about his baby, and he would usually smile a big smile when i asked him how his new baby was. and that was just about the extent of my conversation that i can remember with the boy. but i usually saw him every morning as i would come through. he would be working around the front part of the scott, foresman bins and shelf space. mr. belin. did you ever see whether or not he seemed to strike up any friendship or acquaintanceship with the other employees? mr. truly. no; i never noticed that anywheres. in fact, i would be inclined--well--i never saw him with anyone else, except occasionally talking, maybe asking where books were or something. i don't know what he would say. but very little conversation he had with anyone. and he worked by himself. his job was something that he needed no help with, other than to ask occasionally for stock. it wasn't a teamwork job at all. consequently, he didn't have much occasion to talk with the other boys. i thought it was a pretty good trait at the time, because occasionally you have to spread your boys out and say, "quit talking so much, let's get to work." and it seemed to me like he paid attention to his job. mr. belin. did you notice whether or not he brought his lunch to work generally? mr. truly. i never was aware that he brought a lunch. i would see him occasionally in the shipping department eating some little snack or something--didn't pay much attention. offhand, it seemed to be not too much--a coca-cola, dr. pepper, and some little thing. maybe he would be sitting there reading a book or a newspaper. mr. belin. you would see him occasionally reading a newspaper at the lunch hour? mr. truly. i am sure so; yes. and occasionally--i didn't always go to lunch at --usually a little after. and he would have to pass my door to go out the front. occasionally i had seen the boy go out, and maybe he would be gone long enough to get across the street and back, with something in his hand. i seem to recall possibly a newspaper, maybe potato chips or something like that. mr. belin. did you ever have any discussions with him about politics or anything like that? mr. truly. never. mr. belin. prior to november , did you have any discussion with him about the presidential motorcade, or hear him talk to anyone about it? mr. truly. i never heard him talk to anyone, and i didn't talk to him myself. mr. belin. any other things about lee harvey oswald prior to november that you can think of? mr. truly. offhand i cannot recall a thing. just like i said--he seemed to go about his business in a quiet way, didn't talk much, seemed to be doing a satisfactory job. mr. belin. if you turn behind you, you will see commission exhibit no. , and it appears to be a floor plan which is entitled, "texas school book depository." you see the room marked mr. truly's office? mr. truly. that is right. mr. belin. does that appear to accurately depict where your office is located? this is the front of the building here at the top. mr. truly. yes, sir. mr. belin. and it was in the place marked mr. truly's office that lee harvey oswald filled out in front of you on your desk exhibit ? mr. truly. that is right. mr. belin. and also the withholding slip? mr. truly. yes, sir. mr. belin. now i want to take you to the morning of november d. first let me ask you when you first heard your employees discussing the fact that the motorcade would be going by the texas school book depository? was that first on the morning of november d that you heard that, or at any prior date? mr. truly. i don't recall. i don't recall hearing any particular discussion about him coming by. no, sir; i don't. mr. belin. all right. what time did you get to work on november d? mr. truly. around o'clock, or shortly thereafter. mr. belin. did you see lee harvey oswald at any time during that day? mr. truly. i am almost certain that i saw him early that morning as i came in, and spoke to him. mr. belin. and where was he when you saw him? mr. truly. i think he was around the front part of the scott, foresman bins. mr. belin. on what floor? mr. truly. on the first floor. mr. belin. was he filling orders? mr. truly. apparently; yes, sir. i don't recall too close. but i am almost certain that i talked to him that morning. mr. belin. do you recall any conversation you might have had with him, or he might have had with you? mr. truly. no, sir. if there was anything, i just said "good morning, lee", and he said, "good morning, sir" and that would be the extent of my conversation, if i saw him that morning, which i am almost certain i did. mr. belin. did you see him any other time during that day? mr. truly. i cannot recall. i believe i saw him that morning later on, around his work. but i probably wasn't on that floor too much, or out on the floor that morning. mr. belin. now, when did you leave for lunch, mr. truly? mr. truly. as near as i know, it was between somewheres around : or shortly after, possibly : . mr. belin. at that time did you go out to lunch? mr. truly. yes, sir. mr. belin. where did you go to eat? mr. truly. we didn't go anywheres. mr. campbell and i---- mr. belin. that is mr. o. v. campbell? mr. truly. mr. o. v. campbell, vice president--and i had started out for lunch. i don't know as we had any particular place in mind. we ate at several places around there. it was around : or : , i would say, to the nearest of my memory. as we got to the outside of the building, we noticed that it wouldn't be long until the motorcade would come by, and we decided to wait and watch the president come by. mr. belin. do you remember where you were standing with mr. campbell? mr. truly. i would judge out in elm street, to or feet from the front steps. we first stood on the steps, the bottom steps a few minutes, and then we walked out in the line of spectators on the side of elm street. mr. belin. i hand you what has been marked commission exhibit , and ask you to state, if you know, what this is. mr. truly. this is the front entrance to our building. mr. belin. in what direction would the camera be pointing? mr. truly. almost straight out from it. it would not be--well, it could be on a little angle. mr. belin. i mean would the camera be pointing east, west, north, or south? mr. truly. north. mr. belin. and the camera would be pointing north on exhibit . i wonder if on that exhibit you would put the place where you and mr. campbell first stood, and mark that with the letter "a" if you would. mr. truly. the street curved there, i suppose. i think possibly along here somewheres. mr. belin. you have marked a letter "a" on exhibit . now, i believe you said that afterwards you went and moved out towards the street, is that correct? mr. truly. that is right. mr. belin. i am going to put up on the board commission exhibit no. . the bottom of the picture is relatively north, sir. and the top faces roughly south. and here is the texas school book depository building--located at houston and elm. mr. truly. that is right. mr. belin. i wonder if you could put on exhibit with the letter "t" the spot at which you were standing when you moved to a closer position to watch the motorcade. mr. truly. i could be off a few feet, but i believe possibly over this way just a bit--that is within or or feet of this area. we were almost out in this. and i think when the motorcade came around, we probably pushed out even a bit farther. mr. belin. now, by this, you are referring to the entrance to the parkway, is that correct? mr. truly. yes. mr. belin. and you say that you are either at the spot marked by the letter "t" or perhaps a little bit to the east of that? mr. truly. that is right. mr. belin. and that you gradually might have moved a little bit towards the south, towards the parkway, is that correct? mr. truly. that is correct. mr. belin. all right. do you know approximately what time you got there, mr. truly? to the best of your recollection. mr. truly. or minutes after we reached the entrance, the walkway, we stood on the steps or minutes, and then i don't believe--we just gradually moved out a bit. and then when the policemen leading the motorcade came off of main on to houston, we saw them coming, and then we just moved out a little farther to the edge of the parkway. mr. belin. did you notice any other company employees with you other than mr. campbell at that time? mr. truly. well, i did. i noticed several. mrs. reid was standing there close. and it seemed like there were several of the other employees standing out in front of the building. but i cannot--i think bill shelley was standing over to my right as i faced the motorcade--somewheres in that area. i noticed just before the motorcade passed there were, i believe, three of our colored boys had come out and started up, and two of them came back. and i didn't see them when the motorcade passed. but they had started across houston street up elm, and they came back later on, and i think those were the ones that were--two of them were the ones on the fifth floor. possibly they could not see over the crowd. they are short boys. i wasn't doing too well at that, myself. mr. belin. all right. what did you next see with reference to the motorcade? mr. truly. do you mind me---- mr. belin. do you want to turn that over, sir? will that be easier for you? mr. truly. it might be easier for the gentlemen when i point this out. now, what was the question? mr. belin. my question is what did you see with reference to the motorcade? mr. truly. all right. we saw the motorcycle escort come off of main and turn onto houston street. mr. belin. main would be down here, and it would be coming off houston, heading towards the building? mr. truly. headed towards the building. mr. belin. all right. mr. truly. and it went on down this way. and immediately after---- mr. belin. by "this way" you mean the street marked parkway? mr. truly. i assume that is the underpass that you have marked parkway. mr. belin. the street leading to the expressway, that diagonal street? mr. truly. that is right. and the president's car following close behind came along at an average speed of or miles an hour. it wasn't that much, because they were getting ready to turn. and the driver of the presidential car swung out too far to the right, and he came almost within an inch of running into this little abutment here, between elm and the parkway. and he slowed down perceptibly and pulled back to the left to get over into the middle lane of the parkway. not being familiar with the street, he came too far out this way when he made his turn. mr. belin. he came too far to the north before he made his curve, and as he curved--as he made his left turn from houston onto the street leading to the expressway, he almost hit this north curb? mr. truly. that is right. just before he got to it, he had to almost stop, to pull over to the left. if he had maintained his speed, he would probably have hit this little section here. mr. belin. all right. now, what is your best estimate of the speed as he started to go down the street here marked parkway? mr. truly. he picked up a little speed along here, and then seemed to have fallen back into line, and i would say or miles an hour in this area. mr. belin. all right. then what did you see happen? mr. truly. i heard an explosion, which i thought was a toy cannon or a loud firecracker from west of the building. nothing happened at this first explosion. everything was frozen. and immediately after two more explosions, which i realized that i thought was a gun, a rifle of some kind. the president's--i saw the president's car swerve to the left and stop somewheres down in this area. it is misleading here. and that is the last i saw of his car, because this crowd, when the third shot rang out--there was a large crowd all along this abutment here, this little wall, and there was some around us in front--they began screaming and falling to the ground. and the people in front of myself and mr. campbell surged back, either in terror or panic. they must have seen this thing. i became separated from mr. campbell. they just practically bore me back to the first step on the entrance of our building. mr. belin. when you saw the president's car seem to stop, how long did it appear to stop? mr. truly. it would be hard to say over a second or two or something like that. i didn't see--i just saw it stop. i don't know. i didn't see it start up. mr. belin. then you stopped looking at it, or you were distracted by something else? mr. truly. yes. the crowd in front of me kind of congealed around me and bore me back through weight of numbers, and i lost sight of it. i think there were a lot of people trying to get out of the way of something. they didn't know what. mr. belin. then what did you do or see? mr. truly. i heard a policeman in this area along here make a remark, "oh, goddam," or something like that. i just remember that. it wasn't a motorcycle policeman. it was one of the dallas policeman, i think--words to that effect. i wouldn't know him. i just remember there was a policeman standing along in this area about , , or feet from me. but as i came back here, and everybody was screaming and hollering, just moments later i saw a young motorcycle policeman run up to the building, up the steps to the entrance of our building. he ran right by me. and he was pushing people out of the way. he pushed a number of people out of the way before he got to me. i saw him coming through, i believe. as he ran up the stairway--i mean up the steps, i was almost to the steps, i ran up and caught up with him. i believe i caught up with him inside the lobby of the building, or possibly the front steps. i don't remember that close. but i remember it occurred to me that this man wants on top of the building. he doesn't know the plan of the floor. and that is--that just popped in my mind, and i ran in with him. as we got in the lobby, almost on the inside of the first floor, this policeman asked me where the stairway is. and i said, "this way". and i ran diagonally across to the northwest corner of the building. mr. belin. now, let me, if i can--turning to exhibit again, i wonder if you would, with this--we can first do it with this pen, if you would--trace your route inside there. point out the place inside the lobby where you talked to the policeman, where he said "where is the stairway." mr. truly. i believe along right there. mr. belin. all right. could you put a "t" on exhibit , if you would. mr. truly. i could be wrong, but i am almost positive that is the place. mr. belin. all right. now--and this is inside the glass or plastic set of doors shown on exhibit , is that correct? mr. truly. that is correct. mr. belin. now, he said to you what? mr. truly. where is the stairway. mr. belin. and what did you say to him? mr. truly. i said "this way." mr. belin. now, i wonder if you would take this pen and show the route that you took with the policeman, or take your own pen, if you would, sir--starting from point "t" on exhibit . mr. truly. i ran in front of him. mr. belin. you better mark on the exhibit, sir. mr. truly. took this route. there is a swinging door and a counter, what we call our will call counter right here. mr. belin. is it here, or here? mr. truly. no, wait a minute. there--right here. we came in this way. mr. belin. do you still want to put point "t" up here? mr. truly. no. this was on the steps, wasn't it? this is where i am sure he asked me. mr. belin. you better cross out the other one, then. mr. truly. i saw this thing here, and i thought it was that little swinging door. mr. belin. that would be the main door? now, you have point "t." now, will you trace the route from point "t"? mr. truly. we came through this door here. the policeman right behind me. mr. belin. all right. mr. truly. this is a counter and this is a counter built in that cut inside--this is where our customers come that pick up books. mr. belin. all right. when you are pointing to the counter on exhibit , you are pointing to a rectangle that appears to be located immediately to the west of the glass--looks like a glass partition to your office, is that correct? mr. truly. that is right. mr. belin. you call that the will call counter? mr. truly. that is right. mr. belin. what happened when you got there? mr. truly. there is a little swinging door that swings in and out that we have there. we never keep it locked. but on the bottom is a little bolt that you can lock it to keep people from pulling it out or pushing it in. and this bolt had slid out. it has done that on occasions. i started to run through this little opening, and i ran into the door, and the bolt hung against the side of the counter, and the policeman ran into my back. and so i just pulled it back and continued on through. mr. belin. all right. now, the door didn't swing through. the bolt stuck. so you were stuck by the door. the policeman ran into you. and then you had to stop and pull the door back and go through it. mr. truly. that is right. mr. belin. then where did you go? you might continue with your pen on exhibit , showing the route. all right. now, you have cut sort of diagonally across towards the rear, and you have come to the west elevator in the rear. mr. truly. that is right. mr. belin. let me ask you this, mr. truly. i note on exhibit right where you came in there appears to be some stairs there. why didn't you go up those stairs, instead of running to the back? mr. truly. those stairs only reached to the second floor, and they wouldn't have any way of getting up to the top without going to the back stairway. mr. belin. all right. mr. truly. so this is the logical stairway that goes all the way to the seventh floor. mr. belin. and you are pointing to the stairway in what would be the northwest corner? mr. truly. that is right. mr. belin. now, you got to the elevator, and what did you do then? mr. truly. i looked up. this is two elevators in the same well. this elevator over here---- mr. belin. you are pointing to the west one? mr. truly. i am pointing to the west one. this elevator was on the fifth floor. also, the east elevator--as far as i can tell--both of them were on the fifth floor at that time. this elevator will come down if the gates are down, and you push a button. representative ford. which elevator is that? mr. truly. the west one. but the east one will not come down unless you get on it and bring it down. you cannot call it if the gates are down. representative ford. that is the east elevator? mr. truly. the east elevator? there is a button and a little bell here. i pressed---- mr. belin. you might put a "b" on exhibit by the elevator for "button." mr. truly. that is right on this surface. there is a little button. i pressed the button and the elevator didn't move. i called upstairs "turn loose the elevator." mr. belin. when you say call up, in what kind of a voice did you call? mr. truly. real loud. i suppose in an excited voice. but loud enough that anyone could have heard me if they had not been over stacking or making a little noise. but i rang the bell and pushed this button. mr. belin. what did you call? mr. truly. i said, "turn loose the elevator." those boys understand that language. mr. belin. what does that mean? mr. truly. that means if they have the gates up, they go pull the gates down, and when you press the button, you can pull it down. mr. belin. and how many times did you yell that? mr. truly. two times. mr. belin. after you had first pushed the button? mr. truly. that is right. i had pressed the button twice, i believe, and called up for the elevator twice. mr. belin. then what did you do? first of all, did the elevator come down? mr. truly. it did not. mr. belin. all right. then what did you do? mr. truly. i went up on a run up the stairway. mr. belin. could you again follow--from point b, could you show which way you went? all right. mr. truly. what is this here? mr. belin. this is to show this is a stairway, and there is a stairway above it, too. but you went up the stairs right here? mr. truly. that is right. mr. belin. okay. and where was this officer at that time? mr. truly. this officer was right behind me and coming up the stairway. by the time i reached the second floor, the officer was a little further behind me than he was on the first floor, i assume--i know. mr. belin. was he a few feet behind you then? mr. truly. he was a few feet. it is hard for me to tell. i ran right on around to my left, started to continue on up the stairway to the third floor, and on up. mr. belin. now, when you say you ran on to your left, did you look straight ahead to see whether there was anyone in that area, or were you intent on just going upstairs? mr. truly. if there had been anybody in that area, i would have seen him on the outside. but i was content--i was trying to show the officer the pathway up, where the elevators--i mean where the stairways continued. mr. belin. now, i hand you what has been marked exhibit . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , for identification.) mr. belin. this is entitled "texas school book depository, diagram of second floor." you can sit down, if you would, please, mr. truly. and would you, on exhibit , if you would kind of take an arrow to show the route that you took going out--or up from the first floor, and starting up the stairs towards the third. now, you marked that with pen. could you put a "t" on that, if you would, please? now, there appears to be some kind of a vestibule or hall of one kind or another with the no. in a circle on it, on exhibit . is this completely clear, or are there books there from time to time? mr. truly. no; that is always clear. there is a few cartons of office stock, invoices, blank invoices and stationery and stuff up and down here. but there is always a pathway. there is a post, right about where this is. you can always clear it and come by there. i don't think there would ever be stock here that would obstruct your view of the other area across there. mr. belin. now, i hand you what has been marked commission exhibit . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. belin. i ask you to state, if you know what this is. mr. truly. yes. this is the vestibule, when you first come up the stairs on the second floor--this is what you will find right there. mr. belin. now, as you take a look at the picture exhibit , is this a post immediately to the left side of the picture, to the extreme left of the picture? mr. truly. no. mr. belin. what is this, to the extreme left? is that the wall for the staircase? mr. truly. yes; there is an opening on this side, and the staircase is back over here. this picture is just part of this vestibule out here. mr. belin. and what direction does the camera appear to be pointing, or what is shown there? mr. truly. it appears to be pointing east. mr. belin. and i see a door with a glass in it. could you show where on this diagram exhibit this door with the glass is? do you see a number with an arrow pointing to the door? mr. truly. that is it. mr. belin. what number is that? mr. truly. it is number . mr. belin. all right. number , the arrow points to the door that has the glass in it. now, as you raced around, how far did you start up the stairs towards the third floor there? mr. truly. i suppose i was up two or three steps before i realized the officer wasn't following me. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. truly. i came back to the second floor landing. mr. belin. what did you see? mr. truly. i heard some voices, or a voice, coming from the area of the lunchroom, or the inside vestibule, the area of . mr. belin. all right. and i see that there appears to be on the second floor diagram, a room marked lunchroom. mr. truly. that is right. mr. belin. what did you do then? mr. truly. i ran over and looked in this door no. . mr. belin. through the glass, or was the door open? mr. truly. i don't know. i think i opened the door. i feel like i did. i don't remember. mr. belin. it could have been open or it could have been closed, you do not remember? mr. truly. the chances are it was closed. mr. belin. you thought you opened it? mr. truly. i think i opened it. i opened the door back and leaned in this way. mr. belin. what did you see? mr. truly. i saw the officer almost directly in the doorway of the lunchroom facing lee harvey oswald. mr. belin. and where was lee harvey oswald at the time you saw him? mr. truly. he was at the front of the lunchroom, not very far inside--he was just inside the lunchroom door. mr. belin. all right. mr. truly. or feet, possibly. mr. belin. could you put an "o" where you saw lee harvey oswald? all right. you have put an "o" on exhibit . what did you see or hear the officer say or do? mr. truly. when i reached there, the officer had his gun pointing at oswald. the officer turned this way and said, "this man work here?" and i said, "yes." mr. belin. and then what happened? mr. truly. then we left lee harvey oswald immediately and continued to run up the stairways until we reached the fifth floor. mr. belin. all right. let me ask you this now. how far was the officer's gun from lee harvey oswald when he asked the question? mr. truly. it would be hard for me to say, but it seemed to me like it was almost touching him. mr. belin. what portion of his body? mr. truly. towards the middle portion of his body. mr. belin. could you see lee harvey oswald's hands? mr. truly. yes. mr. belin. could you see---- mr. truly. i am sure i could, yes. i could see most of him, because i was looking in the room on an angle, and they were this way. mr. belin. when you say you were looking in the room on an angle---- mr. truly. what i mean--this door offsets the lunchroom door. mr. belin. by this door, you mean door no. is at an angle to door no. ? mr. truly. yes. one this way and the other one is this way. mr. belin. all right. could you see whether or not lee harvey oswald had anything in either hand? mr. truly. i noticed nothing in either hand. mr. belin. did you see both of his hands? mr. truly. i am sure i did. i could be wrong, but i am almost sure i did. mr. belin. about how long did officer baker stand there with lee harvey oswald after you saw them? mr. truly. he left him immediately after i told him--after he asked me, does this man work here. i said, yes. the officer left him immediately. mr. belin. did you hear lee harvey oswald say anything? mr. truly. not a thing. mr. belin. did you see any expression on his face? or weren't you paying attention? mr. truly. he didn't seem to be excited or overly afraid or anything. he might have been a bit startled, like i might have been if somebody confronted me. but i cannot recall any change in expression of any kind on his face. mr. belin. now, i hand you what the reporter has marked as exhibit . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. belin. i ask you to state if you know what this is. mr. truly. that is the interior of the lunchroom. mr. belin. and what direction does the camera appear to be pointing on exhibit ? mr. truly. east. mr. belin. and does this appear to be the doorway in the very foreground of the picture? mr. truly. i believe so. representative ford. which doorway would that be? mr. truly. number . the camera seems to be right in the doorway when that picture was taken. you cannot see the doorway very well. mr. dulles. may i ask you a question? do you know why it was that the officer didn't follow you up the stairs, but instead was distracted, as it were, and went with lee harvey oswald into the lunchroom? mr. truly. i never knew until a day or two ago that he said he saw a movement, saw a man going away from him. mr. dulles. as he was going up the stairs? mr. truly. as he got to the second floor landing. while i was going around, he saw a movement. mr. dulles. and he followed that? mr. truly. that is right. representative ford. he saw a movement in the lunchroom or a man go into the lunchroom? mr. truly. he saw the back of a man inside the door--i suppose door no. . but that isn't my statement. i didn't learn about that, you see, until the other day. mr. belin. i believe we have some additional pictures of the lunchroom. perhaps we can just briefly identify them. here is a picture which has been marked commission exhibit . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. belin. i will ask you to state what this is. mr. truly. this is a picture of the lunchroom. mr. belin. what direction is the camera facing there? mr. truly. east. mr. belin. what about exhibit ? (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. truly. this picture is part of the lunchroom. and i would say the camera must be facing northeast. mr. belin. what about exhibit ? mr. truly. this is the lunchroom looking west. northwest, i would say. mr. belin. is this door clear to the left of the picture, the door in which you saw officer baker standing when he was talking to lee harvey oswald? mr. truly. yes, sir. mr. belin. now, mr. truly, you then went up to the third floor with officer baker. mr. truly. we continued on until we reached the fifth floor. mr. belin. now, by the way, i have used the name officer baker. when did you find out what his name was? mr. truly. i never did know for sure what his name was until he was down to the building and you were interviewing him last week. mr. belin. this was on friday, march th? mr. truly. i had heard his name was baker or burton or various other names. but i never did try to find out what his name was. mr. belin. all right. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. belin. now, mr. truly, did you notice when you got to the third floor--first of all. on the second floor, was there any elevator there? mr. truly. no, sir. mr. belin. what about the third floor? mr. truly. no, sir. mr. belin. fourth floor? mr. truly. no, i am sure not. mr. belin. what about the fifth floor? mr. truly. when we reached the fifth floor, the east elevator was on that floor. mr. belin. what about the west elevator? was that on the fifth floor? mr. truly. no, sir. i am sure it wasn't, or i could not have seen the east elevator. mr. belin. all right. mr. truly. i am almost positive that it wasn't there. mr. dulles. you said you released the elevator and let it go down? mr. truly. no; the east elevator was the one on the fifth floor. mr. belin. now, exhibit appears to be a diagram of the fifth floor. as i understand it, you might mark on that diagram the way you went from the stairs over to the east elevator. mr. truly. well, i started around towards the stairway, and then i noted that this east elevator was there. so i told the officer, "come on, here is an elevator," and then we ran down to the east side, and got on the east elevator. mr. belin. could you put the letter "t" at the end of that line, please? all right. now, where did you go with the east elevator, to what floor? mr. truly. we rode the east elevator to the seventh floor. mr. belin. did you stop at the sixth floor at all? mr. truly. no, sir. mr. belin. what did you do when you got to the seventh floor? mr. truly. we ran up a little stairway that leads out through a little penthouse on to the roof. mr. belin. what did you do on the roof? mr. truly. we ran immediately to the west side of the building. there is a wall around the building that you cannot see over without getting your foot between the mortar of the stones and, or some such toehold. we did that and looked over the ground and the railroad tracks below. there we saw many officers and a lot of spectators, people running up and down. mr. belin. did the officer say to you why he wanted to go up to the roof? mr. truly. no. at that time, he didn't. mr. belin. did he ever prior to meeting you again on march th tell you why he wanted to go on the roof? mr. truly. no, sir. mr. belin. where did you think the shots came from? mr. truly. i thought the shots came from the vicinity of the railroad or the wpa project, behind the wpa project west of the building. mr. belin. did you have any conversation with the officer that you can remember? about where you thought the shots came from? mr. truly. yes. when--some time in the course, i believe, after we reached the roof, the officer looked down over the boxcars and the railroad tracks and the crowd below. then he looked around the edge of the roof for any evidence of anybody being there. and then looked up at the runways and the big sign on the roof. he saw nothing. he came over. and some time about then i said, "officer, i think"--let's back up. i believe the officer told me as we walked down into the seventh floor, "be careful, this man will blow your head off." and i told the officer that i didn't feel like the shots came from the building. i said, "i think we are wasting our time up here," or words to that effect, "i don't believe these shots came from the building." mr. belin. did he say anything to that at all? mr. truly. i don't recall exactly what he said. i believe he said, yes, or somebody said they did, or some such thing as that. i don't remember. i have heard so many things since, you know. mr. belin. all right. now, mr. truly, on march th, you and i visited about this particular incident you have related about the running into the building and up the stairs with this officer, is that correct? mr. truly. that is correct. mr. belin. and as a matter of fact you and officer baker and i tried to reconstruct the incident in an effort to determine how long it took you to do all this, is that correct? mr. truly. that is correct. mr. belin. and do you remember watching me getting over with officer baker in front of the sheriff's office on market street--pardon me--houston street, with a stopwatch? mr. truly. yes, sir. mr. belin. and then you saw officer baker race his motorcycle over and come in front of the building, and then you ran in with him, is that correct? mr. truly. that is correct. mr. belin. and then what is the fact as to whether or not you and officer baker and i recreated the incident as you have testified to here, going into the lobby with the conversation you had with officer baker, and running into that swinging door, and going back to the elevator and pushing the elevator button, and then calling or yelling twice for the elevator to come down, and then coming up the stairs to the second floor. do you remember that? mr. truly. i remember that. mr. belin. when we recreated that incident, did we walk or run? mr. truly. we walked. we trotted. mr. belin. we trotted. did we get out of breath, do you remember? mr. truly. yes. mr. belin. did we go at about the speed that you feel you went on that day with officer baker? mr. truly. i think so--which was a little more than a trot, i would say. mr. belin. do you remember offhand what the stopwatch timed us at--i think we did it twice, is that correct? mr. truly. no, sir--not from the time that he got on his motorcycle, i don't remember. mr. belin. all right. mr. truly. but i was thinking it was somewheres under minutes. between a minute and a half and minutes. mr. belin. officer baker, i think, will be able to testify to that in the morning. representative ford. but in reconstructing the incident, you went more or less at a similar pace, took about the same time you did on november d? mr. truly. as far as i can tell; yes, sir. mr. belin. you ran at about the same speed, do you believe? mr. truly. yes; i believe so. we tried to--we had a few people we had to push our way through to start in the building the other time, and possibly didn't run quite so fast at first. mr. belin. would you say that again? mr. truly. i said when the officer and i ran in, we were shouldering people aside in front of the building, so we possibly were slowed a little bit more coming in than we were when he and i came in march th. i don't believe so. but it wouldn't be enough to matter there. mr. belin. would you say that the reconstruction that we did on march th was a minimum or a maximum time? mr. truly. oh, i would say that would be the minimum time. mr. belin. mr. truly, when you took the elevator to the fifth--from the fifth to the seventh floor, that east elevator did you see the west elevator at all as you passed the sixth floor, when you got to the seventh floor? mr. truly. no, sir; because--i could not see the west elevator while operating the east elevator. mr. belin. you mean because you were not looking at it, or you just couldn't see it? mr. truly. well, the back of the east elevator is solid metal, and if i passed--yes; i could. i beg your pardon. i could see it from the fifth floor. i didn't notice it anywheres up there. i wasn't really looking for it, however. mr. belin. now, after you got--when did you notice that west elevator next? if you know. mr. truly. i don't know. mr. belin. i believe you said when you first saw the elevators, you thought they were both on the same floor, the fifth floor. mr. truly. yes, sir. mr. belin. then how do you explain that when you got to the fifth floor, one of the elevators was not there? mr. truly. i don't know, sir. i think one of my boys was getting stock off the fifth floor on the back side, and probably moved the elevator at the time--somewheres between the time we were running upstairs. and i would not have remembered that. i mean i wouldn't have really heard that, with the commotion we were making running up the enclosed stairwell. mr. belin. did you see anyone on the fifth floor? mr. truly. yes. when coming down i am sure i saw jack dougherty getting some books off the fifth floor. now, this is so dim in my mind that i could be making a mistake. but i believe that he was getting some stock, that he had already gone back to work, and that he was getting some stock off the fifth floor. mr. belin. you really don't know who was operating the elevator, then, is that correct? mr. truly. that is correct. mr. belin. what is your best guess? mr. truly. my best guess is that jack dougherty was. mr. belin. now, after you got down from the seventh floor, you then went down to the sixth floor with officer baker? mr. truly. yes. mr. belin. did he look around on the sixth floor at all or not? mr. truly. just before we got on the elevator on the seventh floor, officer baker ran over and looked in a little room on the seventh floor, and glanced around on that floor, which is open, and it didn't take much of a search. and then we reached the sixth floor. i stopped. he glanced over the sixth floor quickly. mr. belin. could you see the southeast corner of the sixth floor from there? mr. truly. i don't think so; no, sir. you could not. mr. belin. then what? mr. truly. then we continued on down, and we saw officers on the fourth floor. i don't recall that we stopped any more until we reached the first floor. but i do recall there was an officer on the fourth floor, by the time we got down that far. mr. belin. all right. and then you got down eventually to the first floor? mr. truly. that is right. mr. belin. about how long after these shots do you think it took you to go all the way up and look around the roof and come all the way down again? mr. truly. oh, we might have been gone between and minutes. it is hard to say. mr. belin. what did you do when you got back to the first floor, or what did you see? mr. truly. when i got back to the first floor, at first i didn't see anything except officers running around, reporters in the place. there was a regular madhouse. mr. belin. had they sealed off the building yet, do you know? mr. truly. i am sure they had. mr. belin. then what? mr. truly. then in a few minutes--it could have been moments or minutes at a time like that--i noticed some of my boys were over in the west corner of the shipping department, and there were several officers over there taking their names and addresses, and so forth. there were other officers in other parts of the building taking other employees, like office people's names. i noticed that lee oswald was not among these boys. so i picked up the telephone and called mr. aiken down at the other warehouse who keeps our application blanks. back up there. first i mentioned to mr. campbell--i asked bill shelley if he had seen him, he looked around and said no. mr. belin. when you asked bill shelley if he had seen whom? mr. truly. lee oswald. i said, "have you seen him around lately," and he said no. so mr. campbell is standing there, and i said, "i have a boy over here missing. i don't know whether to report it or not." because i had another one or two out then. i didn't know whether they were all there or not. he said, "what do you think"? and i got to thinking. he said, "well, we better do it anyway." it was so quick after that. so i picked the phone up then and called mr. aiken, at the warehouse, and got the boy's name and general description and telephone number and address at irving. mr. belin. did you have any address for him in dallas, or did you just have an address in irving? mr. truly. just the address in irving. i knew nothing of this dallas address. i didn't know he was living away from his family. mr. belin. now, would that be the address and the description as shown on this application, exhibit ? mr. truly. yes, sir. mr. belin. did you ask for the name and addresses of any other employees who might have been missing? mr. truly. no, sir. mr. belin. why didn't you ask for any other employees? mr. truly. that is the only one that i could be certain right then was missing. mr. belin. then what did you do after you got that information? mr. truly. chief lumpkin of the dallas police department was standing a few feet from me. i told chief lumpkin that i had a boy missing over here--"i don't know whether it amounts to anything or not." and i gave him his description. and he says, "just a moment. we will go tell captain fritz." mr. belin. all right. and then what happened? mr. truly. so chief lumpkin had several officers there that he was talking to, and i assumed that he gave him some instructions of some nature--i didn't hear it. and then he turned to me and says, "now we will go upstairs". so we got on one of the elevators, i don't know which, and rode up to the sixth floor. i didn't know captain fritz was on the sixth floor. and he was over in the northwest corner of the building. mr. belin. by the stairs there? mr. truly. yes; by the stairs. mr. belin. all right. mr. truly. and there were other officers with him. chief lumpkin stepped over and told captain fritz that i had something that i wanted to tell him. mr. belin. all right. and then what happened? mr. truly. so captain fritz left the men he was with and walked over about or feet and said, "what is it, mr. truly," or words to that effect. and i told him about this boy missing and gave him his address and telephone number and general description. and he says, "thank you, mr. truly. we will take care of it." and i went back downstairs in a few minutes. there was a reporter followed me away from that spot, and asked me who oswald was. i told the reporter, "you must have ears like a bird, or something. i don't want to say anything about a boy i don't know anything about. this is a terrible thing." or words to that effect. i said, "don't bother me. don't mention the name. let's find something out." so i went back downstairs with chief lumpkin. mr. belin. when you got on the sixth floor, did you happen to go over to the southeast corner of the sixth floor at about that time or not? mr. truly. no, sir; i sure didn't. mr. belin. when did you get over to the southeast corner of the sixth floor? mr. truly. that i can't answer. i don't remember when i went over there. it was sometime before i learned that they had found either the rifle or the spent shell cases. it could have been at the time i went up and told them about lee harvey oswald being missing. i cannot remember. but i didn't know it. i didn't see them find them, and i didn't know at the time--i don't know how long they had the things. mr. belin. there has been some testimony here, mr. truly, about some bins for storing books on the fifth floor near the stairway. i am going to hand you an exhibit which has been marked as commission exhibit , and ask you to state, if you know--were you there when these pictures were taken on the fifth floor? on friday, march th? the chairman. the fifth floor? mr. belin. the fifth floor; yes, sir. mr. truly. yes; i was, i believe. some of them i may not have been when all of them were taken. i was not there when this picture was taken, no, sir. mr. belin. you are familiar with those bins on the fifth floor, are you not? mr. truly. yes, sir. mr. belin. how long have those bins by the stairway been there? mr. truly. well, it would be hard for me to say, but they have been there, i suppose, almost from the time we moved in--nearly years. they were there at the time of november . mr. belin. on commission exhibit , the line marked "w", will you state whether or not this appears to be the approximate line where the bins are located? mr. truly. yes, it would be. mr. belin. can you see over those bins? mr. truly. you cannot. mr. belin. i mean when you are at the window--say you are in the southwest corner. mr. truly. no, sir; you cannot. they obscure the stairway. mr. belin. all right. now, there was a floor laying project that was going along on the sixth floor at about the time of november , is that correct? mr. truly. yes, sir. mr. belin. handing you commission exhibit , could you state, if you know, approximately where on the sixth floor they were laying new plywood floor around november d? mr. truly. this is it---- mr. belin. this is north right here? mr. truly. they were in this area right here. mr. belin. well, there is a blank line that appears to have a "w" at one end or the other. would that be a fairly accurate---- mr. truly. yes, sir; in the west end of the building. mr. belin. where they were laying the floor? mr. truly. that is where they were laying the floor. mr. belin. now, when you were--were you familiar with the fact that they had moved books in the process of laying that floor? mr. truly. i knew they had to. i didn't know where they moved them particularly until that time. i don't suppose i had been up on that floor in several days. mr. belin. by that time, you mean november ? mr. truly. yes, sir. mr. belin. where did it appear that they had moved them? mr. truly. they moved a long row of books down parallel to the windows on the south side, following the building, and had quite a lot of cartons on the north--let's see--the southeast corner of the building. mr. belin. sometime on november d did you go to the southeast corner of the building? mr. truly. yes, sir. mr. belin. did you notice anything particularly about the books that were in the southeast corner? mr. truly. i didn't at that time--with the exception of a few cartons that were moved. but i did not know any pattern that the boys used in putting these cartons up there. they were just piled up there more or less at that time. mr. belin. well, handing you what has been marked as exhibit , which is a picture, does this appear to portray the southeast corner of the sixth floor as you saw it on november d? mr. truly. yes, sir. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. belin. now, i notice some rows of books along the east wall. did those books go all the way to the corner or not? mr. truly. they did not in front of the window extend very much in height, but they did go all the way on the floor to the corner of the building. mr. belin. was this prior to november d? mr. truly. yes, sir. mr. belin. when you got there on november d, did those books still go to the corner of the east wall of the sixth floor? mr. truly. no, sir. there were several cartons that had been moved out of the corner and apparently placed on top of the cartons next to them in front of the east window. mr. belin. do you have any books that are called rolling readers? mr. truly. yes, sir. mr. belin. do you know what floor those rolling readers are usually kept on? mr. truly. the first floor and the sixth floor. most of them are on the sixth floor. mr. belin. do you know where on the sixth floor the rolling readers are? mr. truly. yes, sir. mr. belin. approximately where? mr. truly. they were--i would say they were thirty or forty feet from the corner. they were not in the area that the boys moved books from. mr. belin. well, handing you exhibit , i wonder if you would mark with your pen the letters "rr" for rolling readers. would there have been any occasion at all to move any rolling readers from the area you have marked on exhibit to the southeast corner of the sixth floor? mr. truly. no, sir; because the boys had not finished much of the plywood work, and they would--none of that stock was moved at that time for any purpose. mr. belin. are the rolling reader cartons average size or small size or large size? mr. truly. they are much smaller than the average size cartons on that floor. mr. mccloy. do you intend to offer all of these exhibits en bloc later on? mr. belin. yes, sir. now, handing you commission exhibit , there appear to be some boxes near a window on a floor of your building. and i note that on two of the boxes they are marked "ten rolling readers." are those the rolling reader cartons that you referred to, with the letters "rr" on commission exhibit ? (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. truly. yes, sir; that is right. representative ford. the rolling reader boxes were not ordinarily in that southeast corner? mr. truly. no, sir. that was not the place for them. they were feet or so away. representative ford. may i ask--the job that oswald had, how did you designate it? mr. truly. well, he filled orders. representative ford. he was an order filler? mr. truly. order filler. representative ford. do you keep records of the orders that are filled by each order filler every day? mr. truly. not every day; no, sir. occasionally we would double check on the employees, or the checker would count up the number and give me the number each employee filled in that day, or several days in succession for a whole week. representative ford. would you know what orders oswald filled november d? mr. truly. no, sir; i would not. representative ford. you would have no way of checking that? mr. truly. no. they would have been some orders that he filled the st that were not checked and out of the house on the d. and i could not tell how many he filled or when he filled his orders, no, sir. representative ford. when an order filler fills an order, does he make his initial or mark on it? mr. truly. yes, sir; he does. up there where it says "l", which is layout, he puts his number, and then the checker puts his number under "c" when he checks the order and sees that it is all right, and sends it on for packing. representative ford. well, it would seem to me that every order that was filled on a particular day by an order filler could be identified as to the individual. mr. truly. you see, we don't always get out our orders the same day they are shipped. the order fillers fill lots of orders, and they are filling orders on up to quitting time in the afternoon, and those wouldn't go out until the next day, or sometime, if they get ahead of the checker. they don't put the date on them when they fill them. representative ford. what i am trying to find out--is there any way to trace by the orders that were filled by oswald on the morning of november d as to whether or not in the process of filling orders he was taken to the sixth floor? mr. truly. no, sir; we could not tell whether he filled any orders that might be dated november d--might have been filled--if they were dated november d and had oswald's number on it, we would know that he filled those on november d. but if they were billed and dated on the th and st, and there was a number of those filled, we could not tell how many of those he filled on the d. representative ford. have you ever gone back through your orders for the d? mr. truly. no, sir. representative ford. just to take a survey? mr. truly. we have thousands and thousands of accounts, and they run from a to z alphabetically in our files. we would have to take--we would have to go through every invoice in each file, from a to z, in order to find any orders he might have filled on that day. and it would be hard to prove that he filled them on that date because, unless we found one that had his number on it and was dated november d--because we know he wasn't there after that--but if it was dated november st, he could easily have filled a good number of those orders that morning of the d. but we could not tell whether he filled them the st or the d. mr. belin. mr. truly, in line with congressman ford's questions, was there ever a clipboard found in your building at all? mr. truly. yes, sir. sometime later there was a clipboard found that had two or three orders on it. mr. belin. what were those orders dated? mr. truly. i don't remember, sir. mr. belin. do you remember where the clipboard was found? mr. truly. i later learned it was found up on the sixth floor, near the stairway, behind some cartons. i do not remember just exactly how many orders were on it, but i think it was only two or three. mr. belin. do you remember who found it? mr. truly. a boy by the name of frankie kaiser. mr. belin. is he still one of your employees? mr. truly. yes, sir. mr. belin. do you know whether this was ever identified as having ever belonged to any particular employee of yours? mr. truly. well, he brought the clipboard to bill shelley and told him about it, and he said, "this is an old clipboard i used to use. this is the one that oswald was using." it was a kind of homemade affair. mr. belin. when you say he brought it to bill shelley, who are you referring to? mr. truly. i am referring to frankie kaiser who brought the clipboard with the orders downstairs and told bill shelley that he had found oswald's clipboard with some orders on it. mr. belin. had those orders ever been filled or not? mr. truly. no, sir. you see, when they fill the orders, they take them off the clipboard. they may have on the clipboard, and after a while they will have or or something. mr. belin. do you know whether or not those orders were ever eventually filled that were found on the clipboard? mr. truly. yes, sir; they were filled. mr. belin. what did you do with the clipboard and the order blanks that were on there? mr. truly. i think someone else filled the order blanks and the clipboard lay around there for a while until it was mentioned. i don't recall what happened to it. at the time nobody considered it of too much significance, i suppose--that the boy was just filling orders up there and he had just thrown his clipboard over. i believe that someone from a government agency either got the clipboard or looked at it. i have this thing all mixed up. it hasn't been very long ago, you know, about the clipboard. i don't know the solution of it. they were trying to identify this clipboard just a short while ago for someone--the fbi or the secret service, or it could be you, could it? mr. belin. no, sir. mr. truly. just shortly before you. mr. belin. well, let me ask you this question? are there any ways in which your orders are posted that show anything along the lines that congressman ford suggested as to who might fill an order or when an order would be posted? in other words, if you come to an order and you see that the order is dated maybe november st, but you do not know whether it was filled on november st or november d, would your posting system of entries on your ledger or journal in any way show when it was filled? mr. truly. no, sir. the date that we go by is the date the checker checks the order, and then he puts the date stamp on it. he puts it over on the table in a little conveyor belt, and the boys wrap it. when he separates the packing list and the invoice itself--he puts the packing list and the label with the order. then he dates the invoice as of that date, and it goes upstairs to be matched with the other copies, and then charged to the customer. mr. belin. well, you mentioned earlier that periodically your checkers get a check to ascertain how many orders were filled by the various employees. do you know of any such check made on the morning of november d? mr. truly. no, sir; i do not recall having made a check in several days before that. we would usually run a check of errors for a week, and then we would run a check occasionally of orders filled. and checking on the errors the various boys made--maybe we have an unusual number for us of teachers writing in saying that they got the wrong book. so we try to check and see which one of these boys possibly was making these errors. mr. belin. is it your testimony that you do not recall any check being made on november d, or you are sure there was no check on november d? mr. truly. there was no check that i recall. and i am sure there wasn't. (at this point, the chairman left the hearing room.) representative ford. could you tell us the approximate date that this individual found the clipboard and brought it to your attention? mr. truly. no, sir. representative ford. was it a few days after the assassination, or several weeks? mr. truly. i think it was just a few days afterward because--now, we would have to check upstairs. if these orders are not filled and processed and gone upstairs and matched with the copies in several days there, then we go looking for the order like the boys missed them. we have copies in the office, and if they do not come through in a reasonable time, we think that someone has lost some orders, and we get to checking them. if we cannot find them, we have to duplicate the orders. representative ford. in other words, if weeks had passed without the order being filled according to your records, you would have instituted a more thorough search to find out where the unfilled order blank was. mr. truly. yes, sir--less than that, i would say, because we do not--our customers would probably write to us before then, if they did not receive it. but the girls on it--usually or days, if those orders have not cleared, they come to check about them, to see if we are holding one back because we do not have the stock, or if we have lost it, the boys have lost it. (at this point, the chairman entered the hearing room.) representative ford. who is the man who brought the clipboard to you? mr. truly. bill shelley called my attention to it. at that time i do not recall anything being done except maybe one of the boys filling the orders and just forgetting about that part of it. representative ford. to your best recollection, who gave the clipboard to bill shelley? mr. truly. frankie kaiser. representative ford. was he an employee of the texas school book depository? mr. truly. yes, sir. representative ford. do you know generally where kaiser found the clipboard? mr. truly. yes, sir. representative ford. can you point it out to us on one of the exhibits? mr. belin. the diagram of the sixth floor has been marked as exhibit no. . perhaps you can mark on exhibit no. with the letter "c" where you think the clipboard was found. i might at this point on the record say for the commission that exhibit purports to be the position of the clipboard when it was discovered--the clipboard is circled, and the number on the picture, on exhibit , is numbered , and on the exhibit appears at the end of the arrow with the number on it, which is near where mr. truly put his "c". and the number on that same exhibit--the number will be shown tomorrow to be the position of the rifle when it was discovered. representative ford. and is the position of the clipboard? mr. ball. i don't think you can take that as evidence. mr. belin. this is not evidence. this is just background. mr. ball. this is really an offer of proof on our part. that is the most you can consider it--because we intend to take the deposition of kaiser who found the clipboard. representative ford. is there someone here, the staff or mr. truly, who knows approximately when the clipboard was found? mr. belin. yes, sir. i can give you that date in about one minute. according to our records, frankie kaiser, when interviewed on december d, said that on the morning of december d he found a clipboard which he had made and which he had turned over to lee harvey oswald with orders. and we have a list of the orders also in one of the commission documents. it is document , page . but we are going to have to actually take the deposition of mr. kaiser, which we will do when we go to dallas next week or the week after, or whenever we get to him. representative ford. off the record. (discussion off the record.) representative ford. back on the record. mr. belin. three more pictures, mr. truly. i hand you what the reporter has marked as exhibit . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) i ask you to state if this appears to be the stairway leading from the second to the third floor, or can't you tell? mr. truly. i believe so; yes. mr. belin. and that is the stairway that you went up two or three steps before you came down to get officer baker? mr. truly. yes, sir. mr. belin. now, i note with regard to the floor plan on the second floor that when you want to get to the lunchroom from the elevator, if you want to get to the lunchroom from the west elevator you have to walk in the area through that door marked number . is that correct? mr. truly. that's right. mr. belin. if you want to get there from the east elevator, what do you do? mr. truly. well, there is a side door, a north door, coming into the lunchroom that they can come through. mr. belin. does that north door appear on exhibit ? mr. truly. yes. mr. belin. that appears to be located east of the coca cola machine, is that correct? mr. truly. that is correct. mr. belin. now, if someone wanted to take an elevator and get off on the second floor, and go through the back door to get to the lunchroom, would there be any way for that elevator to leave the second floor other than for someone to get back on that east elevator and personally operate it? mr. truly. no, sir. mr. belin. in other words, the east elevator you have to actually have an operator on it and it cannot be moved by just pushing a button? mr. truly. that's right. mr. belin. one other question. just what are rolling readers? is rolling a company or what is it? mr. truly. well, if you would look at it you wouldn't know what it was after you opened the box. but it is a new concept in material for reading for children in the first grade, kindergarten and so forth. they are little blocks with words on them that roll out, and then you turn them over. it is something like--i know way back in my childhood they would use number blocks and things like that. but it has words and sentences and things they can put together. mr. dulles. a square like dice? mr. truly. that's right. it looks like dice, only they are bigger. they have the theory that these can interest a lot of children because of the noise they put out here, and they pick them up when they hit the floor and put them together into sentences and things. something to stimulate the interest of children who are not quite as advanced in their reading. mr. belin. are they relatively heavy or light cartons? mr. truly. they are very light. mr. belin. the cartons themselves. about how much would a carton of rolling readers weigh? mr. truly. i don't think they would weigh over between five and ten pounds. mr. belin. and by rolling readers you mean there were sets of the rolling readers in each of these cartons shown on exhibit ? mr. truly. that's right. mr. belin. at this time we offer in evidence exhibits through inclusive. mr. mccloy. they may be admitted. (the documents heretofore marked commission exhibits nos. through , inclusive, for identification, were received in evidence.) mr. mccloy. mr. truly, i think i heard you say when you were describing the first contact that you had with oswald that you said, "that is the last time i saw him until november th." did i hear you say that? mr. truly. no, sir; i did not. if i did, it was a mistake. i saw him on october th, the morning he came to work. mr. mccloy. i put down here that was the last time you had seen him until november th. mr. truly. for the record, if i said that, that is wrong. i meant october th. the chairman. which was the next morning? mr. truly. that was the next morning after he was told to come to work. mr. dulles. do you recall, mr. truly, whether you hired any personnel for work in this particular building, in the school depository, after the th of october and before the d of november? mr. truly. no, sir; i don't recall hiring anyone else other than oswald for that building the same day that i hired oswald. i believe, if i am not mistaken, i hired another boy for a temporary job, and put him in the other warehouse at north houston. mr. dulles. at a different warehouse? mr. truly. at a different warehouse. he was laid off november th, i believe--november th, or something like that. mr. dulles. what i was getting at is whether an accomplice could have gotten in in that way. that is why i was asking the question. mr. truly. no, sir; i don't recall. actually, the end of our fall rush--if it hadn't existed a week or weeks longer, or if we had not been using some of our regular boys putting down this plywood, we would not have had any need for lee oswald at that time, which is a tragic thing for me to think about. mr. mccloy. mr. truly, while oswald was in your employ, did you have any inquiries made of you by any of the united states agencies, such as fbi, regarding him? mr. truly. no, sir; nothing ever. mr. dulles. did oswald mention to you anything about his trip to russia and return from russia? mr. truly. no, sir; he did not. he just told me that he just recently was discharged from the marines with an honorable discharge. and i suppose that if he had had some background of a few jobs, skipping here and there, i might have investigated those jobs thoroughly. mr. dulles. he did not tell you about those short-time jobs he had? mr. truly. no. the thing is i thought he was just discharged from the service, and we have worked with boys in the past, and they have gone on and got on their feet and got a better job. and i did not give it a thought that he was really just not discharged from the marines. mr. belin. mr. truly, you mentioned the fact that you thought jack dougherty was the one operating that west elevator. is that correct? mr. truly. yes, sir. mr. belin. could you tell us a little bit about jack dougherty? mr. truly. jack dougherty has been working for us or years. until we moved into this building, he has been mostly in our state department, the building at north houston. he would fill orders for--that called for many cartons of books on a three-textbook-order basis to the various schools in texas. and he seemed to be intelligent and smart and a hard worker. the main thing is he just worked all the time. i have never had any occasion to have any hard words for jack. a few times he would get a little bit--maybe do a little something wrong, and i would mention it to him, and he would just go to pieces--not anything--but anything the rest of the day or the next day would not be right. [deletion.] he is a great big husky fellow. i think he is years old. he has never been married. he has no interest in women. he gets flustered, has a small word for it, at times. he has never had any trouble. he is a good, loyal, hard working employee. he always has been. mr. belin. would you consider him of average intelligence? mr. truly. yes, sir. i think what is wrong with him mostly is his emotional makeup. i would say that for the work he is doing, he is of average intelligence. mr. belin. when you got to the fifth floor, as i understand it, the west elevator was not there, but when you started up from the first floor, you thought it was on the fifth floor. mr. truly. no. when i came down from the second floor--from the seventh floor with the officer, i thought i saw jack dougherty on the fifth floor, which he would have had plenty of time to move the elevator down and up and get some stock and come back. mr. belin. but when you got to the fifth floor that west elevator was not there? mr. truly. no, sir. mr. belin. was it on any floor below the fifth floor? mr. truly. i didn't look. mr. belin. as you were climbing up the floors, you did not see it? mr. truly. no, sir. mr. belin. and if it wasn't on the fifth floor when you got there, it could have been on the sixth or seventh, i assume. mr. truly. no, sir; i don't believe so, because i think i would have heard or seen it coming downstairs when i got on the fifth floor elevator, on the east side. mr. belin. well, suppose it was just stopped on the sixth floor when you got on the fifth floor elevator. would you have seen it then? mr. truly. i think so, yes, sir. as we started up from the fifth floor, you could see the top of it at an angle. mr. belin. were you looking in that direction as you rode up on the fifth floor, or were you facing the east? mr. truly. no, sir. i don't know which way i was looking. i was only intent on getting to the seventh floor. mr. belin. so you cannot say when you passed the sixth floor whether or not an elevator was there? mr. truly. i cannot. mr. belin. when you got to the seventh floor, you got out of the east elevator. was the west elevator on the seventh floor? mr. truly. no, sir. mr. belin. are you sure it was not on the seventh floor? mr. truly. yes, sir. mr. belin. did you hear the west elevator running at any time when you were riding the elevator from the fifth to the seventh? mr. truly. i was not aware of it. mr. belin. all right. i have no further questions. the chairman. any other questions? representative ford. how many employees do you have in the building on the corner of houston and elm? mr. truly. i cannot tell you the figures, the total number of the office and all employees. we had about , i think. we had -warehouse and order-filler boys in both warehouses, and there are only four or five down at the other place. i think we had men working in our warehouse at houston and elm on that day. representative ford. on november d. mr. dulles. would all of them normally have had access to the sixth floor, or might have gone to the sixth floor? mr. truly. possibly any--possibly so. we have one man that checks. he hardly fills any orders. and we have one or two that write up freight. but any of the order-fillers there might be a possibility--there might be a possibility they might need something off the sixth floor. representative ford. when you noticed the police assembling the employees after the assassination, what prompted you to think that oswald was not among them? mr. truly. i have asked myself that many times. i cannot give an answer. unless it was the fact that i knew he was on the second floor, i had seen him or minutes, or whatever it was, before that. that might have brought that boy's name to my mind--because i was looking over there and he was the only one i missed at that time that i could think of. subconsciously it might have been because i saw him on the second floor and i knew he was in the building. representative ford. had there been any traits that you had noticed from the time of his employment that might have made you think then that there was a connection between the shooting and oswald? mr. truly. not at all. in fact, i was fooled so completely by the sound of--the direction of the shot, that i did not believe--still did not believe--maybe i could not force myself to believe, that the shots came from that building until i learned that they found the gun and the shells there. so i had no feeling whatever that they did come from there. i am sure that did not bring oswald in my mind. but it was just the fact that they were trying to get people's names. mr. dulles. when you reported that oswald was missing, do you recall whether you told the police that he had been on the second floor? mr. truly. no, sir; i did not. mr. dulles. you did not? mr. truly. no, sir; i just said, "i have a man that is missing. i don't know whether it means anything, but this is the name." representative ford. do you know about what time that was that you told the police? mr. truly. i could be wrong, but i think it was around --between minutes or minutes after the shots, or something. i could be as far off as minutes or so. i don't know. i did not seem to think it was very long. we might have spent more time up on the roof and coming down, and then i might have walked out in the shipping department. everybody was running up asking questions. time could fool me. but i did not think it was but about or minutes later. representative ford. in your description of oswald to captain fritz, did you describe the kind of clothes that oswald had on that day? mr. truly. i don't know, sir. no, sir; i just told him his name and where he lived and his telephone number and his age, as , and i said feet, , about pounds, light brown hair--whatever i picked up off the description there. i did not try to depend on my memory to describe him. i just put down what was on this application blank. that's the reason i called mr. aiken, because i did not want to mislead anybody as to a description. i might call a man brown-haired, and he might be blonde. mr. dulles. when you and the officer saw oswald in the luncheon room, did any words pass between you? mr. truly. no. the officer said something to the boy. mr. dulles. i mean between you and oswald. mr. truly. no, sir. oswald never said a word. not to me. mr. dulles. what was he doing? mr. truly. he was just standing there. mr. dulles. did he have a coke? mr. truly. no, sir. mr. dulles. no drink? mr. truly. no drink at all. just standing there. mr. dulles. anything about his appearance that was startling or unusual? mr. truly. no, sir. no, sir; i didn't see him panting like he had been running or anything. mr. dulles. didn't appear to be doing anything special, moving in any direction? mr. truly. no, sir. he was standing still facing the doorway to the lunchroom. the officer was there with a gun pointed at him, around towards his middle, almost touching. mr. dulles. how long before the president's actual visit on the d of november did you know of the visit and of the route that he was going to take. mr. truly. well, i think they said it was announced hours before the assassination that he would take that route. mr. dulles. was there any discussion, as far as you know, among your employees, of the fact that the procession would go near the school depository? mr. truly. no, sir; not that i know of. mr. mccloy. did you ever have any reason to suspect any other member--any other of your boys of being in any way connected with this affair? mr. truly. no, sir; i never have found anything or any actions to make me feel that they might be connected with it. mr. mccloy. you never observed oswald conversing with any strange or unidentified characters during his employment with you? mr. truly. never. mr. dulles. did oswald have any visitors as far as you know? mr. truly. never knew of a one; no, sir. mr. mccloy. did he have the use of a telephone when he was in the building? mr. truly. yes, sir. we have a telephone on the first floor that he was free to use during his lunch hour for a minute. he was supposed to ask permission to use the phone. but he could have used the phone. mr. dulles. pay telephone or office telephone? mr. truly. no, sir; it is a regular office telephone. it is a pushbutton type. mr. mccloy. did he strike you as being a frequent user of that telephone? mr. truly. i never remember ever seeing him on the telephone. mr. dulles. would you have any record or be able to find out now whether he had ever used it? mr. truly. no, sir. mr. mccloy. you did not see him on november d with any package or any bundle? mr. truly. no, sir. mr. belin. mr. truly, when we were there on march th, did you take a walk down from the southeast corner window on the sixth floor with officer baker and a secret service agent howlett--we walked along from that window at the southeast corner of the sixth floor, walked along the east wall to the northeast corner of the building, and then across there around the elevators, and secret service agent howlett simulated putting a rifle at the spot where the rifle was found; and then we took the stairs down to the second floor lunchroom where officer baker encountered lee harvey oswald? you remember us doing that? mr. truly. yes, sir. mr. belin. how fast were we going--running, trotting, walking or what? mr. truly. walking at a brisk walk, and then a little bit faster, i would say. mr. belin. you remember what time that was? how long did it take? mr. truly. it seemed to me like it was a minute and seconds, and a minute and seconds. we tried it twice. i believe that is about as near as i remember. mr. belin. if a person were in that southeast corner window, just knowing the way the books were laid up there, would that have been the most practicable route to use to get out of there, to get down the stairs? mr. truly. i believe so. i believe it to be. mr. mccloy. in your judgment, you think that is the route that oswald took? mr. truly. i think--he had two possible routes there. one of them, he could come half way down the east wall and down this way, but he would have to make one more turn. but if he came all the way down the east wall to where the rows of books stop, he had a straight run toward the sixth floor stairs. mr. dulles. you do not think he used any of the elevators at any time to get from the sixth to the second floor? mr. truly. you mean after the shooting? no, sir; he just could not, because those elevators, i saw myself, were both on the fifth floor, they were both even. and i tried to get one of them, and then when we ran up to the second floor--it would have been impossible for him to have come down either one of those elevators after the assassination. he had to use the stairway as his only way of getting down--since we did see the elevators in those positions. mr. dulles. he could not have taken it down and then have somebody else go up to that floor and leave it? mr. truly. no, sir; i don't believe he would have had time for that. representative ford. he couldn't have taken an elevator down and then sent it up to a higher floor? mr. truly. no, sir. yes; he could. i suppose he could put his hand through the slotted bars and touched one of the upper floors. mr. belin. on both elevators? mr. truly. that is just the west one only. representative ford. that was feasible, even though it might be a little difficult? mr. truly. yes, sir. representative ford. there was no button on the outside that permitted him to send an elevator up to a higher floor? mr. truly. no, sir. it would take him quite a little job to get his hand all through there and press one. mr. dulles. would he have to break any glass to do it? mr. truly. no, sir. the car gate--and then there was an outside gate slatted--slats about this far apart. mr. mccloy. when you entered the building with the officer behind you, when you were presumably trying to get to the roof, there had been no cordon at that time thrown around the building? mr. truly. no, sir. mr. mccloy. so that oswald could have slipped out without an officer having been at the doorway at that point? mr. truly. yes, sir; i think so. there were many officers running down west of the building. it appears many people thought the shots came from there because of the echo or what. mr. dulles. is it your view he went out the front door rather than one of the back doors? mr. truly. yes, sir; it is. from the nature--from the direction he was walking through the office, and the front stairway, to reach the second floor--it is my view that he walked down the front stairs and just out through the crowd there, probably a minute or two before the police had everything stopped. mr. mccloy. from what you know of these young men who testified before you today, are they trustworthy? mr. truly. yes, sir; i think they are. they are good men. they have been with me, most of them, for some time. i have no reason to doubt their word. i do know that they have been rather, as the expression goes, shook up about this thing, especially this tall one, bonnie williams. he is pretty superstitious, i would say. for or weeks the work was not normal, or a month. the boys did not put out their normal amount of work. their hearts were not in it. but after that, they have picked up very well. they are doing their work well. mr. belin. if we can go off the record for just a moment. (discussion off the record.) the chairman. back on the record. mr. truly. i thank you very much. the chairman. thank you, sir. you have helped us a good deal. we will recess at this time until o'clock tomorrow morning. (whereupon, at p.m. the president's commission recessed.) _wednesday, march , _ testimony of marrion l. baker, mrs. robert a. reid, luke mooney, eugene boone, and m. n. mcdonald the president's commission met at : a.m. on march , , at maryland avenue ne., washington, d.c. present were chief justice earl warren, chairman; senator john sherman cooper, representative hale boggs, representative gerald r. ford, and allen w. dulles, members. also present were joseph a. ball, assistant counsel; david w. belin, assistant counsel; norman redlich, assistant counsel; charles murray, observer; and waggoner carr, attorney general of texas. testimony of marrion l. baker the chairman. would you raise your right hand and be sworn please? do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before this commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you god? mr. baker. i do, sir. the chairman. you may be seated. i will read a little short brief statement to you, mr. baker, which will indicate the purpose of our meeting today. the purpose of today's hearing is to hear the testimony of m. l. baker, mrs. r. a. reid, eugene boone, luke mooney, and m. n. mcdonald. officer baker and mrs. reid were in the vicinity of the texas school book depository building at the time of the assassination. deputy sheriffs boone and mooney assisted in the search of the sixth floor of the texas school depository building shortly after the assassination and officer mcdonald apprehended lee harvey oswald at the texas theater. i read this to you just so you will know the general nature of the inquiry we are making today and we will make of you. mr. belin will conduct the examination. mr. belin. officer baker, would you state your legal name, please for the commission? mr. baker. marrion l. baker. mr. belin. you are known as m. l. baker? mr. baker. that is right, sir. mr. belin. what is your occupation? mr. baker. with dallas police department. mr. belin. how long have you been with the dallas police department? mr. baker. almost years. mr. belin. how old are you, officer baker? mr. baker. thirty-three. mr. belin. where were you born? mr. baker. in a little town called blum, tex. mr. belin. did you go to school in blum, tex.? mr. baker. yes, sir; i think i went to about the sixth grade. mr. belin. then where did you go? mr. baker. we moved to dallas and i continued schooling at the roger q. mills school, elementary, went to junior high school, i believe it was called storey, and then i finished high school in adamson high school. mr. belin. in dallas? mr. baker. yes, sir. mr. belin. what did you do after you graduated from high school? mr. baker. i think i got married. the chairman. gentlemen, at this time i must go to the court, we have a session of the court today hearing arguments and mr. dulles, you are going to be here through the morning, so if you will conduct the meeting from this time on. excuse me, gentlemen. (at this point, the chief justice left the hearing room.) mr. belin. after you got married, sir, what did you do. i mean in the way of vocation? mr. baker. i took up a job as a sheetmetal man at the continental tin co. mr. belin. how long did you work for continental? mr. baker. approximately months. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. baker. at that time i quit this job and went to the ford motor co. mr. belin. what did you do at ford? mr. baker. well, at that time i stayed there approximately months and they laid me off and i went to the, i believe they call it chance vought at that time, aircraft. mr. belin. what did you do at ford, sir? mr. baker. i was a glass installer, i believe that is what you would call it. mr. belin. all right. when you went to this aircraft factory what did you do? mr. baker. i was a material clerk. mr. belin. how long did you work for them? mr. baker. i didn't understand? mr. belin. how long did you work for the aircraft company? mr. baker. it seemed like somewhere around a year and a half. mr. belin. all right, then what did you do? mr. baker. at that time it was uncertain out there whether you would stay there or not, they were laying off a few of the men and i went with the neighbor's trailer company which was located in oak cliff there. mr. belin. what did you do there? mr. baker. i was, i guess you would call it a mechanic. i did a little bit of everything there, i did all the road work, and did all the delivering at that time. mr. belin. how long did you stay with them? mr. baker. a little over years. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. baker. then i became, i went with the city of dallas. mr. belin. with the police department? mr. baker. yes, sir. mr. belin. did you take a course of instruction for the police department? mr. baker. yes, sir; i went to the dallas police academy school out there. mr. belin. how long was this schooling period, approximately? mr. baker. four months. mr. belin. after you were graduated from the dallas police academy, did you right away become a motorcycle policeman or were you first a patrolman or what did you do? mr. baker. no, sir; at first i was a patrolman and i spent some months in radio patrol division. and then i volunteered solo division. mr. belin. when you were in this radio car, was this a patrol car where two men would be---- mr. baker. that is right, sir. mr. belin. and have you been a motorcycle policeman then, say, for the last or years? mr. baker. yes, sir; that is pretty close to it. (at this point, representative ford left the hearing room.) mr. belin. by the way, you use the word solo; generally do people in police cars ride in pairs during the daytime or solos or what? mr. baker. if you are talking about the squad cars at the time that i worked in the radio patrol division, most of them were two-men squads. mr. belin. were there some one-man squads, too? mr. baker. very few. mr. belin. what about today, do you know what the situation is? mr. baker. they still have, say, very few two-men squads and a lot of one-man squads now. mr. belin. they have a lot of one-man squads now? mr. baker. yes, sir. mr. dulles. is that because of a shortage of men for the jobs to cover? mr. baker. yes, sir. mr. dulles. not because of the procedures? mr. baker. now, at night they try to ride them two men. mr. belin. in the daytime what is the situation now? mr. baker. usually the downtown squads which i work are two men, and the outlying squads are one man. mr. belin. all right. coming down to november , , what was your occupation on that day? mr. baker. i was assigned to ride a motorcycle. mr. belin. and where were you assigned to ride the motorcycle? mr. baker. at this particular day in the office up there before we went out, i was, my partner and i, we received instructions to ride right beside the president's car. mr. belin. about when was this that you received these instructions? mr. baker. let's see, i believe we went to work early that day, somewhere around o'clock. mr. belin. and from whom did you receive your original instructions to ride by the side of the president's car? mr. baker. our sergeant is the one who gave us the instructions. this is all made up in the captain's office, i believe. mr. belin. all right. mr. dulles. captain curry? mr. baker. chief curry; our captain is captain lawrence. mr. belin. were these instructions ever changed? mr. baker. yes, sir. when we got to the airport, our sergeant instructed me that there wouldn't be anybody riding beside the president's car. mr. belin. did he tell you why or why not? mr. baker. no, sir. we had several occasions where we were assigned there and we were moved by request. mr. belin. on that day, you mean? mr. baker. well, that day and several other occasions when i have escorted them. mr. belin. on that day when did you ride or where were you supposed to ride after this assignment was changed? mr. baker. they just--the sergeant told us just to fall in beyond it, i believe he called it the press, behind the car. mr. belin. beyond the press? mr. baker. yes, sir. mr. belin. did he tell you this after the president's plane arrived at the airport or was it before? mr. baker. it seemed like it was after he arrived out there. mr. belin. had you already seen him get out of the plane? mr. baker. yes, sir. mr. belin. about what time was it before the motorcade left that you were advised of this, was it just before or or minutes before, or what? mr. baker. it was or minutes before. mr. belin. all right. then the motorcade left and you rode along on a motorcycle in the motorcade? mr. baker. yes, sir. mr. belin. was it a two-wheeler or a three-wheeler? mr. baker. it was a two-wheeler. mr. belin. you rode with the motorcade as it traveled through downtown dallas? mr. baker. yes, sir. mr. belin. and eventually what is the fact as to whether or not the motorcade got to main street? mr. baker. you say how fast? mr. belin. no; did the motorcade get to main street in dallas, was it going down main street at anytime? mr. baker. yes, sir; it did. mr. belin. all right. i wonder if you would pick up your actions with the motorcade as it went down main street commencing at, say, main and record streets. mr. baker. well, it was the usual escort. we were traveling about somewhere around to miles an hour. mr. dulles. there is a map right behind you. (discussion off the record.) mr. belin. back on the record again. mr. dulles. would you state exactly where you were riding? we know a good deal about this, the cars the way they were paced. there was a car right behind the president's car that followed it, i think or feet right behind the president's car. mr. baker. that was the secret service car. mr. dulles. that is right. were you in that gap between the two cars or what? mr. baker. no, sir; i was, it seemed to me like, there was this car. mr. dulles. when you say "this car" what do you mean? mr. baker. that secret service car. mr. dulles. the secret service car right behind the president? mr. baker. and there was one more car in there. mr. dulles. behind that? mr. baker. yes, sir. mr. dulles. that was the vice president's car, wasn't it? mr. baker. yes, sir. mr. dulles. and then? mr. baker. there were four press cars carrying the press and i was right at the side of that last one. representative boggs. the last press car? mr. dulles. the last press car? mr. baker. yes, sir. mr. dulles. so you were roughly how far behind the president's car at this stage? mr. baker. sometimes we got, at this stage we were possibly a half block. mr. dulles. a half block? mr. baker. yes, sir; as i say as i turned the corner the front of it was turning the corner at elm street. mr. belin. you mean as you were turning right from main on to houston street heading north onto houston, the president's car had already turned to the left off houston heading down that entrance to the expressway, is that correct? mr. baker. that is right. mr. belin. all right. i believe--pardon me, mr. dulles, does that answer your question? mr. dulles. that answers my question. i wanted to see where he was. mr. belin. you said you were going down main street at around record at from to miles an hour? mr. baker. yes, sir. mr. belin. all right. will you take up your trip from there, please? mr. baker. as we approached the corner there of main and houston we were making a right turn, and as i came out behind that building there, which is the county courthouse, the sheriff building, well, there was a strong wind hit me and i almost lost my balance. mr. belin. how fast would you estimate the speed of your motorcycle as you turned the corner, if you know? mr. baker. i would say--it wasn't very fast. i almost lost balance, we were just creeping along real slowly. mr. dulles. that is turning from main into houston? mr. baker. that is right, sir. mr. belin. you turned--do you have any actual speed estimate as you turned that corner at all or just you would say very slow? mr. baker. i would say from around to or miles an hour, because you can't hardly travel under that and you know keep your balance. mr. belin. from what direction was the wind coming when it hit you? mr. baker. due north. mr. belin. all right. now, tell us what happened after you turned on to houston street? mr. baker. as i got myself straightened up there, i guess it took me some , feet, something like that, and it was about that time that i heard these shots come out. mr. belin. all right. could you just tell us what you heard and what you saw and what you did? mr. baker. as i got, like i say as i got straightened up there, i was, i don't know when these shots started coming off, i just--it seemed to me like they were high, and i just happened to look right straight up---- mr. dulles. i wonder if you would just tell us on that chart and i will try to follow with the record where you were at this time, you were coming down houston. mr. belin. sir, if you can--i plan to get that actual chart in a minute. if we could---- mr. dulles. i want to see where he was vis-a-vis the building on the chart there. mr. baker. this is main street and this is houston. this is the corner that i am speaking of; i made the right turn here. the motorcade and all, as i was here turning the front car was turning up here, and as i got somewhere about right here---- mr. dulles. that is halfway down the first block. mr. belin. no, sir; can i interrupt you for a minute? mr. dulles. certainly. mr. belin. officer baker, when we were in dallas on march , friday, you walked over with me and showed me about the point you thought your motorcycle was when you heard the first shot, do you remember doing that? mr. baker. yes, sir. mr. belin. and then we paced this off measuring it from a distance which could be described as the north curbline of main street as extended? mr. baker. yes, sir; that would be this one right across here. mr. belin. and we paced it off as to where you thought your motorcycle was when you heard the first shot and do you remember offhand about where you said this was as to what distance it was, north of the north curbline of main street? mr. baker. we approximated it was to feet there, north of the north curbline of main on houston. mr. dulles. thank you. mr. belin. does that answer your question? mr. dulles. that answers my question entirely. mr. belin. in any event you heard the first shot, or when you heard this noise did you believe it was a shot or did you believe it was something else? mr. baker. it hit me all at once that it was a rifle shot because i had just got back from deer hunting and i had heard them pop over there for about a week. mr. belin. what kind of a weapon did it sound like it was coming from? mr. baker. it sounded to me like it was a high-powered rifle. mr. belin. all right. when you heard the first shot or the first noise, what did you do and what did you see? mr. baker. well, to me, it sounded high and i immediately kind of looked up, and i had a feeling that it came from the building, either right in front of me or of the one across to the right of it. mr. belin. what would the building right in front of you be? mr. baker. it would be this book depository building. mr. belin. that would be the building located on what corner of houston and elm? mr. baker. that would be the northwest corner. mr. belin. all right. and you thought it was either from that building or the building located where? mr. baker. on the northeast corner. mr. belin. all right. did you see or hear or do anything else after you heard the first noise? mr. baker. yes, sir. as i was looking up, all these pigeons began to fly up to the top of the buildings here and i saw those come up and start flying around. mr. belin. from what building, if you know, do you think those pigeons came from? mr. baker. i wasn't sure, but i am pretty sure they came from the building right on the northwest corner. mr. belin. then what did you see or do? mr. baker. well, i immediately revved that motorcycle up and was going up there to see if i could help anybody or see what was going on because i couldn't see around this bend. mr. belin. well, between the time you revved up the motorcycle had you heard any more shots? mr. baker. yes, sir; i heard--now before i revved up this motorcycle, i heard the, you know, the two extra shots, the three shots. mr. belin. do you have any time estimate as to the spacing of any of these shots? mr. baker. it seemed to me like they just went bang, bang, bang; they were pretty well even to me. mr. belin. they were pretty well even. anything else between the time of the first shot and the time of the last shot that you did up to the time or saw---- mr. baker. no, sir; except i was looking up and i could tell it was high and i was looking up there and i saw those pigeons flying around there. mr. belin. did you notice anything in either of those two buildings either on the northeast or northwest corner of houston and elm? mr. baker. no, sir; i didn't. mr. belin. were you looking at any of those windows? mr. baker. i kind of glanced over them, but i couldn't see anything. mr. belin. how many shots did you hear? mr. baker. three. mr. belin. all right. after the third shot, then, what did you do? mr. baker. well, i revved that motorcycle up and i went down to the corner which would be approximately to feet from the point where we had first stated, you know, that we heard the shots. mr. belin. what distance did you state? what we did on friday afternoon, we paced off from the point you thought you heard the first shot to the point at which you parked the motorcycle, and this paced off to how much? mr. baker. from to feet. mr. belin. that is where you parked the motorcycle? mr. baker. yes. mr. belin. all right. i wonder if we could go on this plat, officer baker, and first if you could put on here with this pen, and i have turned it upside down. with exhibit , show us the spot at which you stopped your motorcycle approximately and put a "b" on it, if you would. mr. baker. somewhere at this position here, which is approximately feet from this signal light here on the northwest corner of elm and houston. mr. belin. all right. you have put a dot on exhibit with the line going to "b" and the dot represents that signal light, is that correct? mr. baker. that is right, sir. mr. belin. you, on friday, march , parked your motorcycle where you thought it was parked on november and then we paced off the distance from the nearest point of the motorcycle to the stop light and it was feet, is that correct? mr. baker. that is correct, sir. mr. belin. all right. now, i show you exhibit and ask you if you will, on this exhibit put an arrow with the letter "b" to this stoplight. mr. baker. talking about this one here? mr. belin. the stoplight from which we measured the distance to the motorcycle. the arrow with the letter "b" points to the stoplight, is that correct? mr. baker. that is correct, sir. mr. belin. and you stopped your motorcycle feet to the east of that stoplight, is that correct? mr. baker. that is correct, sir. mr. belin. we then paced off the distance as to approximately how far it was from the place your motorcycle was parked to the doorway of the school book depository building, do you remember doing that, on march ? mr. baker. yes, sir. mr. belin. and it appears on exhibit that that doorway is recessed, is that correct? mr. baker. that is correct, sir. mr. belin. do you remember how far that was from the place your motorcycle was parked to the doorway? mr. baker. approximately feet. mr. belin. this same stoplight appears as you look at exhibit to the left of the entranceway to the building, is that correct? mr. baker. that is correct, sir. mr. belin. after you parked your motorcycle, did you notice anything that was going on in the area? mr. baker. yes, sir. as i parked here---- mr. belin. you are pointing on exhibit to the place that you have marked with "b." mr. baker. and i was looking westward which would be in this direction. mr. belin. by that, you are pointing down the entrance to the freeway and kind of what i will call the peninsula of the park there? mr. baker. yes, sir. mr. belin. toward the triple underpass. representative boggs. where is the underpass? mr. baker. the underpass is down here. this is really elm street, and this would be main and commerce and they all come together here, and there is a triple overpass. representative boggs. right. mr. baker. at this point, i looked down here as i was parking my motorcycle and these people on this ground here, on the sidewalk, there were several of them falling, and they were rolling around down there, and all these people were rushing back, a lot of them were grabbing their children, and i noticed one, i didn't know who he was, but there was a man ran out into the crowd and back. mr. belin. did you notice anything else? mr. baker. except there was a woman standing--well, all these people were running, and there was a woman screaming, "oh, they have shot that man, they have shot that man." mr. belin. all right. now, you are on exhibit , and you are pointing to people along the area or bordering the entrance to that expressway and that bit of land lying to the west and north, as to where you describe these people, is that correct? mr. baker. that is correct, sir. mr. dulles. would you mark where the overpass would be, right at the end of those lines, just so we get oriented on it. mr. belin. i am trying to see down here. mr. dulles. i just wanted to get a general idea. mr. belin. on exhibit , sir, it wouldn't show but it basically would be off in this direction coming down this way. the entrance to the freeway would go down here and the overpass would roughly be down here. mr. dulles. as far as that? mr. belin. yes, sir; i think mr. redlich is going to get a picture that will better describe it. mr. dulles. all right. mr. belin. all right. is there anything else you saw there, officer baker, before you ran to the building? mr. baker. no, sir; not at that time. mr. belin. all right. then what did you do after surveying the situation? mr. baker. i had it in mind that the shots came from the top of this building here. mr. belin. by this building, you are referring to what? mr. baker. the book depository building. mr. belin. go on. representative boggs. you were parked right in front of the building? mr. baker. yes, sir; ran right straight to it. representative boggs. right. let me ask you a question. how far away, approximately, were these people who were running and falling and so forth from the entrance to the building? mr. baker. well, now, let me say this. from this position here. mr. belin. that is position "b" on exhibit ? mr. baker. there were people running all over this here. mr. belin. and you are pointing to the street and the parkway all in front of the school building? mr. baker. you see, it looked to me like there were maybe or people in this area here. representative boggs. yes. mr. baker. as those shots rang out, why they started running, you know, every direction, just trying to get back out of the way. mr. dulles. for the record, by this area right here, you have that little peninsula between the elm street extension and the building? mr. baker. that is right. this little street runs down in front of the building down here to the property of the railroad tracks and this is all a parkway. mr. dulles. yes. i just wanted to get it for the record. mr. belin. you then ran into the building, is that correct? mr. baker. that is correct, sir. mr. belin. what did you see and what did you do as you ran into the building? mr. baker. as i entered this building, there was, it seems to me like there was outside doors and then there is a little lobby. mr. belin. all right. mr. baker. and then there are some inner doors and another door you have to go through, a swinging door type. as i entered this lobby there were people going in as i entered. and i asked, i just spoke out and asked where the stairs or elevator was, and this man, mr. truly, spoke up and says, it seems to me like he says, "i am a building manager. follow me, officer, and i will show you." so we immediately went out through the second set of doors, and we ran into the swinging door. mr. belin. all right. now, during the course of running into the swinging door, did you bump into the back of mr. truly? mr. baker. yes, sir; i did. mr. belin. then what happened? mr. baker. we finally backed up and got through that little swinging door there and we kind of all ran, not real fast but, you know, a good trot, to the back of the building, i was following him. mr. belin. all right. then what did you do? mr. baker. we went to the northwest corner, we was kind of on the, i would say, the southeast corner of the building there where we entered it, and we went across it to the northwest corner which is in the rear, back there. mr. belin. all right. mr. baker. and he was trying to get that service elevator down there. mr. belin. all right. what did you see mr. truly do? mr. baker. he ran over there and pushed the button to get it down. mr. belin. did the elevator come down after he pushed the button? mr. baker. no, sir; it didn't. mr. belin. then what did he do? mr. baker. he hollered for it, said, "bring that elevator down here." mr. belin. how many times did he holler, to the best of your recollection? mr. baker. it seemed like he did it twice. mr. belin. all right. then what did he do? mr. baker. i said let's take the stairs. mr. belin. all right. then what did you do? mr. baker. he said, "okay" and so he immediately turned around, which the stairs is just to the, would be to the, well, the west of this elevator. mr. belin. all right. mr. baker. and we went up them. mr. belin. you went up the stairs then? mr. baker. yes, sir. mr. belin. when you started up the stairs what was your intention at that time? mr. baker. my intention was to go all the way to the top where i thought the shots had come from, to see if i could find something there, you know, to indicate that. mr. belin. and did you go all the way up to the top of the stairs right away? mr. baker. no, sir; we didn't. mr. belin. what happened? mr. baker. as i came out to the second floor there, mr. truly was ahead of me, and as i come out i was kind of scanning, you know, the rooms, and i caught a glimpse of this man walking away from this--i happened to see him through this window in this door. i don't know how come i saw him, but i had a glimpse of him coming down there. mr. dulles. where was he coming from, do you know? mr. baker. no, sir. all i seen of him was a glimpse of him go away from me. mr. belin. what did you do then? mr. baker. i ran on over there---- representative boggs. you mean where he was? mr. baker. yes, sir. there is a door there with a glass, it seemed to me like about a by , something like that, and then there is another door which is foot on over there, and there is a hallway over there and a hallway entering into a lunchroom, and when i got to where i could see him he was walking away from me about feet away from me in the lunchroom. mr. belin. what did you do? mr. baker. i hollered at him at that time and said, "come here." he turned and walked right straight back to me. mr. belin. where were you at the time you hollered? mr. baker. i was standing in the hallway between this door and the second door, right at the edge of the second door. mr. belin. he walked back toward you then? mr. baker. yes, sir. mr. belin. i hand you what has been marked commission exhibit which appears to be a diagram of the second floor of the school book depository, and you will notice on this diagram there are circles with arrows. i want you to state, if you will, what number or the arrow approximates the point at which you were standing when you told him to "come here". is there a number on there at all or not? mr. baker. this would be the position where i was standing. mr. belin. the arrow which is represented by no. , is that correct? mr. baker. that is correct. mr. belin. on exhibit . when you first saw him in which direction was he walking? mr. baker. he was walking east. mr. belin. was--his back was away from you, or not, as you first saw him? mr. baker. as i first caught that glimpse of him, or as i saw him, really saw him? mr. belin. as you really saw him. mr. baker. he was walking away from me with his back toward me. mr. dulles. can i suggest if you will do this, put on there where the officer was and where lee oswald was, or the man who turned out to be lee oswald, and which direction he was walking in. i think that is quite important. mr. belin. yes, sir. we are going to get to that with one more question, if i can, sir. when you saw him, he then turned around, is that correct, and then walked back toward you? mr. baker. yes, sir. mr. belin. was he carrying anything in his hands? mr. baker. he had nothing at that time. mr. belin. all right. were you carrying anything in either of your hands? mr. baker. yes, sir; i was. mr. belin. what were you carrying? mr. baker. i had my revolver out. mr. belin. when did you take your revolver out? mr. baker. as i was starting up the stairway. mr. belin. all right. now, turning to exhibit , if you would approximate on exhibit with a pen the point at which you saw this man in the lunch room when you told him to turn around. mr. dulles. could we get first where he first saw him. representative boggs. you have that already. mr. dulles. i don't think you have it on the chart where he was. mr. belin. this is when he first saw him after he got in the room, sir. if i can go off the record. mr. dulles. what i wanted to get is where he first saw him as he was standing down here, as he was going up the stairs and stopped and then in what direction he was--he seemed to be moving at that time before he saw. mr. belin. just answer the question, if you will. where were you when you first caught a glimpse of this man? mr. baker. i was just coming up these stairs just around this corner right here. mr. belin. all right. you were coming up the stairs at the point on exhibit where there are the letters "dn" marking down. mr. baker. yes, sir. mr. belin. and you saw something move through a door which is marked as what number on exhibit ? mr. dulles. where was he when you first saw him? mr. baker. at this doorway right here, this . mr. belin. at . representative boggs. may i ask a couple of questions because i have to go? mr. belin. surely. representative boggs. were you suspicious of this man? mr. baker. no, sir; i wasn't. representative boggs. and he came up to you, did he say anything to you? mr. baker. let me start over. i assumed that i was suspicious of everybody because i had my pistol out. representative boggs. right. mr. baker. and as soon as i saw him, i caught a glimpse of him and i ran over there and opened that door and hollered at him. representative boggs. right. mr. dulles. he had not seen you up to that point probably? mr. baker. i don't know whether he had or not. representative boggs. he came up to you? mr. baker. yes, sir; and when i hollered at him he turned around and walked back to me. representative boggs. right close to you? mr. baker. and we were right here at this position , right here in this doorway. representative boggs. right. what did you say to him? mr. baker. i didn't get anything out of him. mr. truly had come up to my side here, and i turned to mr. truly and i says, "do you know this man, does he work here?" and he said yes, and i turned immediately and went on out up the stairs. mr. belin. then you continued up the stairway? representative boggs. let me ask one other question. you later, when you recognized this man as lee oswald, is that right, saw pictures of him? mr. baker. yes, sir. i had occasion to see him in the homicide office later that evening after we got through with parkland hospital and then love field and we went back to the city hall and i went up there and made this affidavit. representative boggs. after he had been arrested? mr. baker. yes, sir. mr. dulles. could you tell us anything more about his appearance, what he was doing, get an impression of the man at all? did he seem to be hurrying, anything of that kind? mr. baker. evidently he was hurrying because at this point here, i was running, and i ran on over here to this door. mr. belin. what door number on that? mr. baker. this would be . mr. belin. all right. mr. baker. and at that position there he was already down here some feet away from me. representative boggs. when you saw him, was he out of breath, did he appear to have been running or what? mr. baker. it didn't appear that to me. he appeared normal you know. representative boggs. was he calm and collected? mr. baker. yes, sir. he never did say a word or nothing. in fact, he didn't change his expression one bit. mr. belin. did he flinch in anyway when you put the gun up in his face? mr. baker. no, sir. mr. dulles. there is no testimony that he put the gun up in his face. mr. baker. i had my gun talking to him like this. mr. dulles. yes. mr. belin. how close was your gun to him if it wasn't the face whatever part of the body it was? mr. baker. about as far from me to you. mr. belin. that would be about how far? mr. baker. approximately feet. mr. belin. did you notice, did he say anything or was there any expression after mr. truly said he worked here? mr. baker. at that time i never did look back toward him. after he says, "yes, he works here," i turned immediately and run on up, i halfway turned then when i was talking to mr. truly. representative boggs. that question about time i would like to establish. how long would you say it was from the time that you first heard the shots until that episode occurred? mr. baker. we went back and made two trial runs on that, and---- mr. belin. was that on friday, march ? mr. baker. yes, sir. mr. belin. all right. mr. baker. and the first run we made it was a minute and seconds, and---- mr. dulles. will you say from what time to what time, from the last shot? mr. baker. from the last shot. mr. belin. the first shot. mr. dulles. the first shot? mr. baker. the first shot. we simulated the shots and by the time we got there, we did everything that i did that day, and this would be the minimum, because i am sure that i, you know, it took me a little longer. mr. dulles. i want to get clear in my mind and for the record, it started at the first shot and when did it terminate, when you saw oswald? mr. baker. when we saw oswald. mr. dulles. when you saw oswald? mr. baker. yes, sir. mr. dulles. and that time is how much? mr. baker. the first run would be a minute and seconds, and then we did it over, and we did it in a minute and seconds. (at this point, representative boggs left the hearing room.) mr. belin. were we walking or running when we did this? mr. baker. the first time we did it a little bit slower, and the second time we hurried it up a little bit. mr. belin. were we running or walking, when we moved, did we run or walk? mr. baker. from the time i got off the motorcycle we walked the first time and then we kind of run the second time from the motorcycle on into the building. mr. belin. all right. when we got inside the building did we run or trot or walk? mr. baker. well, we did it at kind of a trot, i would say, it wasn't a real fast run, an open run. it was more of a trot, kind of. mr. belin. you mentioned the relationship between what we did on march and what actually occurred on november . would you estimate that what we did on march was the maximum or the minimum as for the time you took? mr. baker. i would say it would be the minimum. mr. belin. for instance, on march did we do anything about trying to get through any people on the front steps of the building at all? did we slow down at all for that? mr. baker. no, sir. mr. belin. did we slow down at all on march for the time it took you to look over the scene as to what was happening in the area down elm street and the parkway? mr. baker. no, sir. mr. belin. later did we go to the southeast corner of the sixth floor? mr. baker. yes, sir; we did. mr. belin. with the stopwatch? mr. baker. yes, sir. mr. belin. did we make any or do any stopwatch tests about any route from the southeast corner of the sixth floor down to the lunchroom? mr. baker. yes, sir; we made two test runs. mr. belin. all right. do you remember what the route was? mr. baker. yes, sir; we started on the sixth floor on the east side of the building. mr. belin. all right. mr. baker. we walked down the east wall. mr. belin. we started at that particular corner? mr. baker. yes, sir; we started in the southeast corner. mr. belin. all right. we walked down the east wall, you say? mr. baker. that is right. mr. belin. all right, then where did we go? mr. baker. to the north wall and then we walked down the north wall to the west side of where the stairs was. mr. belin. all right, we walked from the southeast corner to the northeast corner? mr. baker. that is right. mr. belin. then along the northeast corner, around the elevators, do you remember who was with us when we did this? mr. baker. yes, sir. there was, it seems to me like his name was john--anyway, he was a secret service man. mr. belin. john howlett. mr. baker. john howlett. that is right, sir. mr. belin. did mr. howlett simulate anyone putting a gun in any particular place? mr. baker. yes, sir; he did. mr. belin. and then what did we do when we got to the--where did he do that, do you remember? mr. baker. that would be as we approached the stairway, there were some cases of books on the left-hand side there. mr. belin. all right. and secret service agent howlett went over to these books and leaned over as if he were putting a rifle there? mr. baker. that is right, sir. mr. belin. then what did he do? mr. baker. then we continued on down the stairs. mr. belin. to the lunchroom? mr. baker. that is right, sir. mr. belin. do you remember how long that took? mr. baker. the first run with normal walking took us a minute and seconds. mr. belin. what about the second time? mr. baker. and the second time we did it at a fast walk which took us a minute and seconds. mr. belin. you saw the stopwatch on all of these timing occasions when it was started and when it was stopped, is that correct? mr. baker. yes, sir; i did. mr. belin. now, i want to go back to the sixth floor a minute with mr. dulles' questions. mr. dulles. can we go off the record here one moment? (discussion off the record.) mr. belin. on the record. officer baker, when you related your story earlier you said that as you ran back on the first floor you first ran to the elevator shaft, is that correct? mr. baker. that is right, sir. mr. belin. and you stopped at the east or the west elevator door? mr. baker. that would be the west. mr. belin. all right. this was on the first floor, and did you look up the elevator shaft at that time? mr. baker. yes, sir; at that time i did. mr. belin. this was while mr. truly was calling for the elevator? mr. baker. yes, sir. mr. belin. was there any kind of a gate between you and the elevator shaft? mr. baker. yes, sir; there was. mr. belin. wood or metal, do you remember? mr. baker. it is wood. mr. belin. what did you see when you looked up the elevator shaft? mr. baker. at that time i thought there was just one elevator there, you know, one big freight elevator, and to me they looked like they were up there, i didn't know how many floors in that building but you could see them up there, it looked like just at that time, i thought it was just one, when i looked up there, and it looked to me anywhere from three to four floors up. mr. belin. was either elevator moving at the time or--pardon me, was there any elevator moving at the time you saw and looked up the shaft? mr. baker. no, sir. mr. belin. did you hear any elevator moving? mr. baker. no, sir. mr. belin. mr. truly pushed the button, i believe you said. mr. baker. that is right, sir. mr. belin. when he pushed the button did any elevator start moving? mr. baker. no, sir. mr. belin. when you looked up the elevator shaft did it appear as if there was one elevator covering the complete shaft or did it appear there was one elevator that you saw covering half of the shaft? mr. baker. like i say, i thought it was one elevator there and it was covering the whole deal up there so to me it appeared to be one. mr. belin. it didn't appear to be two elevators on different floors? mr. baker. no, sir. mr. belin. all right. now, you got up to floor number two at the time and you did that with the stairs. mr. baker. yes, sir. mr. belin. at the time you got up there was there any elevator on floor number two that you can remember, if you can remember? maybe you cannot remember, i don't know. mr. baker. evidently--now, i didn't look, evidently it wasn't because it seemed to me like the next floor up mr. truly said let's take the elevator. mr. belin. at some higher floor after that? mr. baker. yes, sir. mr. belin. all right, if we can go off the record for a moment here. (discussion off the record.) mr. belin. officer baker, first of all, handing you what the court reporter has marked as exhibit , i would like you to state if you know whether or not this appears to be the door leading from the second floor hallway into the vestibule going into the lunchroom. mr. baker. yes, sir; it does. mr. belin. is this the door through which you glanced as you came around the stairs coming up from the first floor? mr. baker. yes, sir. mr. belin. what did you see that caused you to turn away from going up to the third floor? mr. baker. as i came out of that stairway running, mr. truly had already gone on around, see, and i don't know, as i come around---- mr. dulles. gone on around and up? mr. baker. he had already started around the bend to come to the next elevation going up, i was coming out this one on the second floor, and i don't know, i was kind of sweeping this area as i come up, i was looking from right to left and as i got to this door here i caught a glimpse of this man, just, you know, a sudden glimpse, that is all it was now, and it looked to me like he was going away from me. mr. belin. all right. then what did you do? mr. baker. i ran on up here and opened this door and when i got this door opened i could see him walking on down. mr. dulles. had he meanwhile gone on through the door ahead of you? mr. baker. i can't say whether he had gone on through that door or not. all i did was catch a glance at him, and evidently he was--this door might have been, you know, closing and almost shut at that time. mr. belin. you are pointing by "this door" to the door on exhibit ? mr. baker. yes, sir. mr. dulles. you mean you might have seen him as he was opening and going through the door almost? mr. baker. well, to me it was the back of it. now, through this window you can't see too much but i just caught a glimpse of him through this window going away from me and as i ran to this door and opened it, and looked on down in the lunchroom he was on down there about feet so he was moving about as fast as i was. mr. dulles. how far were you as you left the stairwell, the stairway---- mr. baker. yes, sir. mr. dulles. from that door through which you eventually went through and then saw oswald? mr. baker. i would say that was approximately , feet, something like that. mr. belin. all right. on exhibit is this a picture of the lunchroom? mr. baker. yes, sir; it is. mr. belin. do you know what direction the camera is pointing to take this picture? mr. baker. it would be pointed eastward. mr. belin. all right. i see a coke machine off on the left. when you saw oswald after you got to this doorway inside the lunchroom, had he gone as far as the coke machine? mr. baker. i didn't notice the coke machine or any item in the room there. all i was looking at was the man, and he seemed to be approximately feet down there from me. mr. belin. as you got to the doorway which on exhibit is marked as number, what number is that, you are referring to this number here? mr. baker. yes, sir. mr. belin. now, with relation to exhibit perhaps you can try to trace your route as you came out from the stairway, as to the route you took and the point you were when you first caught a glimpse of some movement through that window or door? mr. baker. at the upper portion of this stairway leading to the second floor, i was just stepping out on to the second floor when i caught this glimpse of this man through this doorway. mr. belin. do you want to put a spot there, with the letter "b" at the point you believe you were when you were looking through that door? you put the letter "b" on exhibit when you first saw the movement. mr. baker. yes, sir. mr. belin. and then you, from that point, could you kind of trace your route to the---- mr. dulles. could i ask one question before you ask this question, and this is a bit of a leading question, and think carefully. if oswald had been coming down the stairs and going into the lunchroom would he have been following the course insofar as you saw a course, that he--that you saw him follow? mr. baker. yes, sir. the reason i say that, this hallway to the right---- mr. belin. by the right you mean the hallway that goes to the--this is---- mr. baker. this is a hallway right here. mr. belin. it is a hallway that has the number on it? mr. baker. yes, sir; from what i understand these are offices in there. mr. dulles. yes. mr. baker. and he had no business in there and the lunchroom would be the only place that he would be going, and there is a door out here that you can get out and to the other part of the building. mr. belin. i think mr. dulles' question relates to whether or not any person would have taken a stairway or elevator to have gotten to that point, is that correct? mr. dulles. yes; that is correct. i am clear as you come up the stairs you take a certain course you would go into the lunchroom. mr. baker. yes, sir. mr. dulles. i am not quite clear as to where you would end up on the second floor as you come down the stairs, is it the same point? mr. belin. mr. dulles, if you will look on exhibit , the stairway appears to be the same stairway. you see the letter, the arrow, , points to the stairway going up to the third floor which, of course, would be the same stairway going down from the third floor and on the building. mr. dulles. you would cross if you were going up and down, you would cross right there at the same point? mr. belin. yes, sir. mr. dulles. and if a man were going up the stairs and then going to the lunchroom and then coming down the stairs and going to the lunchroom, he would be approximately following the same course from the time he got off the stairs and went into that room before you get to the lunchroom. mr. belin. yes, sir. (discussion off the record.) mr. belin. officer baker, you had just marked on exhibit point "b" where you thought you were at about the time you caught a glimpse of something, either through a door or through the window in the door marked , is that correct? mr. baker. that is correct, sir. mr. belin. could you trace your route from point "b" to the doorway , if you would, sir. mr. baker. i ran right straight across here and through this doorway and this is approximately where, i would say here, is approximately where i looked through this lunchroom and saw a man on down here. mr. belin. all right. i am going to put an arrow at that point on exhibit , and this arrow in pen, i am going to put a "b- " and at that arrow which is just to the left of the circle with the number in it you say you then looked through the doorway and saw a man in the lunchroom, right? mr. baker. yes, sir; walking away from me. mr. belin. walking away from you. and then where did you move from point "b- "? mr. baker. i moved on to this position right here in this doorway. mr. belin. all right. i am going to put--you have put an "x" there, and i am going to put that on exhibit as an arrow pointing to it, with "b- ". is this where you stood when you called to the man to come back to you? mr. baker. yes, sir. mr. belin. did you move from that time until the man came up to you? mr. baker. as i called, i remember moving forward a little bit and meeting him right here in this doorway. mr. belin. as you called you say you remembered moving forward and meeting him right in the doorway which would be marked with the arrow with number on it on exhibit , is that right? mr. baker. that is right, sir. mr. belin. after you got there, did you move until the man came up to you? mr. baker. no, sir. mr. belin. did you notice what clothes the man was wearing as he came up to you? mr. baker. at that particular time i was looking at his face, and it seemed to me like he had a light brown jacket on and maybe some kind of white-looking shirt. anyway, as i noticed him walking away from me, it was kind of dim in there that particular day, and it was hanging out to his side. mr. belin. handing you what has been marked as commission exhibit , would this appear to be anything that you have ever seen before? mr. baker. yes, sir; i believe that is the shirt that he had on when he came--i wouldn't be sure of that. it seemed to me like that other shirt was a little bit darker than that whenever i saw him in the homicide office there. mr. belin. what about when you saw him in the school book depository building, does this look familiar as anything he was wearing, if you know? mr. baker. i couldn't say whether that was--it seemed to me it was a light-colored brown but i couldn't say it was that or not. mr. dulles. lighter brown did you say, i am just asking what you said. i couldn't quite hear. mr. baker. yes, sir; all i can remember it was in my recollection of it it was a light brown jacket. mr. belin. are you referring to this exhibit as being similar to the jacket or similar to the shirt that you saw or, if not, similar to either one? mr. baker. well, it would be similar in color to it--i assume it was a jacket, it was hanging out. now, i was looking at his face and i wasn't really paying any attention. after mr. truly said he knew him, so i didn't pay any attention to him, so i just turned and went on. mr. belin. now, you did see him later at the police station, is that correct? mr. baker. yes, sir. mr. belin. was he wearing anything that looked like exhibit at the police station? mr. baker. he did have a brown-type shirt on that was out. mr. belin. did it appear to be similar to any clothing you had seen when you saw him at the school book depository building? mr. baker. i could have mistaken it for a jacket, but to my recollection it was a little colored jacket, that is all i can say. mr. dulles. you saw oswald later in the lineup or later---- mr. baker. i never did have a chance to see him in the lineup. i saw him when i went to give the affidavit, the statement that i saw him down there, of the actions of myself and mr. truly as we went into the building and on up what we are discussing now. (at this point, senator cooper entered the hearing room.) mr. belin. officer baker---- mr. dulles. i didn't get clearly in mind, i am trying to check up, as to whether you saw oswald maybe in the same costume later in the day. did you see oswald later in the day of november d? mr. baker. yes, sir; i did. mr. dulles. under what circumstances? don't go into detail, i just want to tie up these two situations. mr. baker. as i was in the homicide office there writing this, giving this affidavit, i got hung in one of those little small offices back there, while the secret service took mr. oswald in there and questioned him and i couldn't get out by him while they were questioning him, and i did get to see him at that time. mr. dulles. you saw him for a moment at that time? mr. baker. yes, sir. mr. belin. officer baker, you then left the second floor lunchroom with mr. truly, is that correct? mr. baker. that is right, sir. mr. belin. how long did you stay in the lunchroom after truly identified this person as being an employee? mr. baker. just momentarily. as he said, "yes, he works here," i turned and went on up the stairs. mr. belin. all right. do you have any time estimate as to the period of time that elapsed between the time that you first got to the head of the stairs and saw some movement through that first doorway and the time you left to go back up to the flight of stairs going to the third floor? mr. baker. i would say approximately maybe seconds, something like that. it was a real quick interview, you know, and then i left. mr. belin. all right. as you left, did you notice whether or not the man in the lunchroom did anything or started moving anywhere? mr. baker. no, sir. as i left he was still in the position that he was whenever i was facing him. mr. belin. you then went where? mr. baker. i immediately turned and went on, started on, up the stairways. mr. belin. all right. after going up the stairways, do you know what numbered floor it was--i will ask you this, did you take the stairway all the way to the top? mr. baker. no, sir; we caught that elevator, it seemed like we went up either one or two floors, and mr. truly said "let's take the elevator, here it is." mr. belin. did you take an east or west elevator? mr. baker. we took the east elevator. mr. belin. now, the nearest elevator to you when you got off a flight of stairs would have been the east or the west? mr. baker. the west. mr. belin. when you got off the flight of stairs mr. truly said, "here is an elevator," did the west elevator appear to be there? mr. baker. i didn't notice. i was looking around over the building at the time he said, "let's take the elevator" and i just followed him on around. mr. belin. you went to an east elevator? mr. baker. that is right, sir. mr. belin. how far did it appear you rode up the elevator? mr. baker. it was a short ride. we just, either went one or two floors. i couldn't remember. i was still looking at the floors, you know, as we went up. mr. belin. as you rode up on the elevator, did you notice whether or not you passed the elevator on the west side? mr. baker. no, sir; i didn't notice. mr. belin. did you notice or hear anything to indicate that the elevator on the west side might have been moving? mr. baker. no, sir. mr. belin. did you take the east elevator as far as it would go? mr. baker. yes, sir; we did. mr. belin. and then what did you do? mr. baker. we had to walk up another flight of stairs to get up to the top floor. mr. belin. to get up to the roof? mr. baker. yes, sir. mr. belin. when you got off on the seventh floor or the top floor---- mr. baker. yes, sir. mr. belin. did you notice whether or not the other elevator was there? mr. baker. no, sir; i didn't. mr. belin. you didn't notice. you got off the east elevator and then what did you do? mr. baker. we walked up the flight of stairs to the top. mr. belin. to the top. what did you do when you got to the top? mr. baker. we went out on the roof. mr. belin. what did you do on the roof? mr. baker. i immediately went around all the sides of the ledges up there, and after i got on top i found out that a person couldn't shoot off that roof because when you stand up you have to put your hands like this, at the top of that ledge and if you wanted to see over you would have to tiptoe to see over it. mr. dulles. if you look right behind you, officer, you will see a picture and you might point out what the top wall that is shown on that photograph of the building is how high? mr. baker. well, it is about feet. i know i had to put my hand on top of it and tiptoe to see over it. mr. belin. all right. mr. dulles is referring to the picture of the school book depository building on exhibit and in demonstrating before the commission as to where your hands were about how high are they in relation to your shoulders or mouth or chin or what-have-you? mr. baker. approximately feet. mr. belin. your hands are feet high? did you go over just to one roof side or to all sides of the roof? mr. baker. no, sir; we came out at this northwest corner back behind this sign here. mr. belin. all right. mr. baker. and then i ran, kind of running walk, went all the way around. first i glanced over this side here, because the last thing i heard here on the radio was the chief saying, "get some men up on that railroad track." mr. belin. did you hear that on your police radio? mr. baker. yes, sir; that was the last thing i heard. mr. belin. as you were getting off your motorcycle? mr. baker. yes, sir. mr. belin. all right. senator cooper. i didn't hear what he said he heard on the radio? mr. baker. i heard chief curry, the chief of the police over there, say, "get some men over on the railroad track." i think everyone at that time thought these shots came from the railroad track. mr. belin. by "everyone" do you include you, too? mr. baker. no, sir. i had it--i was in a better position due to the wind and you know under it, that i knew it was directly ahead, and up, and it either had to be this building here or this one over here. mr. belin. you are pointing to either the first building, you are pointing to the school book depository building, and the second one you are pointing to is the one across the street. when you heard this announcement on your radio was it while you were parking your motorcycle? mr. baker. yes, sir. mr. belin. go ahead, if you would, please. you are on the roof now. mr. baker. well, as i looked over here, all these people, there were people all over this railroad track. mr. belin. you are saying as you are looking over the south and over the west? mr. baker. yes, sir. mr. belin. all right. mr. baker. then after i looked to see what was going on down there, and then i figured out that he wouldn't have shot from that ledge he would have shot from this sign or this old room, building back here on the back side. mr. belin. all right. now, you are pointing to exhibit to the sign on the top of the school book depository building, the hertz sign, and some kind of a structure on the northeast corner of the building, is that correct? mr. baker. that is correct. mr. belin. officer baker, when you talk, i wonder if you would look at me, we might be able to hear a little bit better. would you tell us what else you did? mr. baker. as i finished going all around this building here and then i came to this sign and i looked up there to see if i could find anybody hiding up there and i started up these steps, it is a ladder there on that sign, and i got on, say, feet up there and i came back down, i seen that nobody would shoot from up there. he wouldn't have no place to hold on. mr. belin. by that you are referring to climbing the ladder to climb up the sign, is that correct? mr. baker. yes, sir; this large hertz sign here. mr. belin. on the top of the school book depository building on exhibit . all right. then what did you do? mr. baker. then i came back down and i went and checked this building right here. it is an old deserted room there of some type. mr. belin. some kind of a shack on the northeast corner of the building? mr. baker. that is right, sir. mr. belin. out there. what did you see when you saw that shack? mr. baker. as i approached it, and looked under it, there wasn't anything under it, and you could tell that pigeons had been roosting there for sometime. mr. belin. all right. there were indications that pigeons had been roosting there? mr. baker. yes, sir. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. baker. no indications that anyone would be around there. mr. belin. did you see any pigeons there as you approached it? mr. baker. no, sir. they had all--at the time i kind of glanced and they were still flying around in the sky up there. mr. belin. what did you do? senator cooper. you referred to pigeons, did you see some pigeon droppings? mr. baker. yes, sir. senator cooper. had they been disturbed in any way? mr. baker. no, sir. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. baker. at that time i went on back. mr. truly was standing over here on this northwest corner and we descended on the stairs there. mr. belin. you went from the stairs to the roof to where, to the top floor of the building? mr. baker. yes, sir. mr. belin. what did you do when you got to the top floor of the building? mr. baker. we walked on down one more flight of stairs and then we caught the same elevator back down. mr. dulles. the top floor was the seventh floor, is it not? mr. baker. well, you have one flight of stairs going from the top floor on up. mr. dulles. yes. mr. baker. and then we caught the elevator back down, the same elevator that we took up. mr. belin. when you referred to one flight of stairs, are you referring to the flight of stairs from the roof to the top floor that you took or the flight of stairs from the top floor to the next to the top floor? mr. baker. well, there are two flights of stairs there. the one from the roof down to the top floor and then there is another one there. mr. belin. when you took the elevator back did you take it from the top floor down or from the next to the top floor down? mr. baker. that elevator to me, it didn't go to the top floor, it goes to the next to the top. mr. belin. did you take it as far as it went? mr. baker. yes, sir. mr. belin. when--did you take an elevator down or did you take the stairs down? mr. baker. we took the elevator down. mr. belin. did you take the same elevator down you took up or did you take a different elevator down? mr. baker. we took the same one. mr. belin. when you went to take that elevator going back down did you notice whether or not the other elevator was there? mr. baker. i didn't notice. it would be to my back and i was looking out forward. mr. belin. it would be to your back from where you came off the stairs going to the roof? mr. baker. are you talking about when we got on the elevator? mr. belin. when you got on the elevator to make the return trip? mr. baker. there wasn't one there whenever we come around out of the stairway, you know, to get on, you know we had to get on the east side instead of just stepping over on the west elevator. mr. belin. officer baker, i am going to hand you what the court reporter, what the commission reporter, has marked as exhibit which purports to be a diagram of the seventh floor of the texas school book depository building and on that diagram you will see at the top the marks of two elevators and then, what looks to be the south, a stairway marked "ladder to the roof." mr. baker. yes, sir. mr. belin. what is the fact as to whether or not this stairway marked "ladder to the roof" is the stairway that you took to go to the roof? mr. baker. yes, sir; it would be. mr. belin. all right. now, when you got off the elevator which you took up to the top floor, which you said was the east elevator---- mr. baker. yes, sir. mr. belin. did you have any occasion to notice whether or not the west elevator was on this top floor? mr. baker. no, sir; i didn't notice it. mr. belin. you didn't notice whether it was or whether it was not? mr. baker. that is right, sir? mr. belin. when you got back down from the roof to this top floor, did you have any occasion to notice whether or not the west elevator was on that top floor or not? mr. baker. no, sir; i still didn't look at the elevator. i was following mr. truly and every time i had a chance i would look around over the building. mr. belin. you would look over the floor itself rather than the other elevator? mr. baker. that is right. mr. belin. you then got on the elevator to go on back down? mr. baker. that is correct. mr. belin. and i believe you said it was the east elevator, is that correct? mr. baker. that is correct. mr. belin. how far did you take the east elevator down? mr. baker. as we descended, somewhere around--we were still talking and i was still looking over the building. mr. belin. as the elevator was moving? mr. baker. yes, sir; downward. mr. belin. all right. mr. baker. the next thing that i noticed was inspector sawyer, he was on one of those floors there, he is a police inspector. mr. dulles. city of dallas police? mr. baker. yes, sir. and he was on, i really didn't notice which floor he was on, but that is the first thing i saw as we descended how this freight elevator, you know, it has got these picket boards in front of it and it has got it open so far, and it seemed to me like we stopped for a moment and i spoke to him and i told him that i had been to the roof, and there wasn't anything on the roof that would indicate anybody being up there, and then we started on down. mr. belin. did you stay on the elevator while you spoke to him? mr. baker. yes, sir. mr. belin. do you remember what floor it was that you spoke to him on or how many floors down that you went from the top before you saw him? mr. baker. no, sir; not at that time. it seemed to me like it was on either the third or the fourth floor. mr. belin. do you remember about how long you stayed on the roof? mr. baker. it was a little over minutes. mr. belin. when you continued moving on the elevator after you talked to inspector sawyer how far did you go on the elevator? mr. baker. we went to the, i believe it would be the first floor there. mr. belin. all right. you got off the elevator then? mr. baker. yes, sir. mr. belin. did you leave mr. truly or did you stay with him? mr. baker. i left mr. truly there. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. baker. i immediately went on out. i was with this motorcade and i went right on straight through the front door and got on my motorcycle and tried to find out what happened to the motorcade. mr. belin. officer baker, when you left the building had the building been sealed off or not? mr. baker. yes, sir; there was an officer at the front door. mr. belin. the officer at the front door, was he stopping people from coming in and out or what? mr. baker. i assumed that he was but i, you know, just went on out. mr. belin. all right. when you got to the first floor on the east elevator did you notice whether the west elevator was there? mr. baker. no, sir; i didn't. mr. belin. was there anything else that you observed in or about the texas school book depository building at that day that you haven't told us about that you can think of right now? mr. baker. no, sir; i can't think of anything else. mr. belin. from the time you went into the building how long did it take you to go up and make your searches and come on down until the time you left, to the best of your recollection? mr. baker. i would say that i was in there approximately minutes. mr. belin. and you left there right at the time that you left mr. truly on the first floor? mr. baker. yes, sir. mr. belin. in this time sequence you mentioned you were on the roof more than minutes, that could be or or or or what? mr. baker. this, to my recollection, it seemed like i shouldn't have stayed up there over minutes anyway, if that long. mr. belin. so you would say somewhere between and minutes? mr. baker. i just ran around up there looking for something; i didn't find it and then we came on down. mr. belin. mr. dulles, are there any questions that you have? mr. dulles. i have no more questions. have you any questions? mr. belin. off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. belin. officer baker, i believe you testified that you later saw lee harvey oswald at the police station of the homicide office, is that correct? mr. baker. that is correct, sir. mr. belin. was this later on that same day? mr. baker. yes, it was. mr. belin. would you state whether or not the man who was shown to you in the police station as lee harvey oswald was or was not the same man that you saw and encountered on the second floor lunchroom of the texas school book depository building on that day? mr. baker. he was the same man. mr. belin. is there anything else about his clothes that you can remember or his dress that you haven't talked about here? mr. baker. no, sir; i can't. mr. dulles. do you recall whether or not he was wearing the same clothes, did he appear to you the same when you saw him in the police station as when you saw him in the lunchroom? mr. baker. actually just looking at him, he looked like he didn't have the same thing on. mr. belin. he looked as though he did not have the same thing on? mr. baker. he looked like he did not have the same on. senator cooper. did you say when you first saw this man walking away from you in the lunchroom, walking away in the opposite direction, that you said for him to come toward you. mr. baker. yes, sir. senator cooper. did he turn around? mr. baker. yes, sir; he did. mr. dulles. the officer testified he had a pistol in his hand at that time, officer baker? senator cooper. he did have a pistol in his hand? mr. baker. i had the pistol. mr. dulles. officer baker had a pistol in his hand. senator cooper. i see. did he move toward you? mr. baker. yes, sir; he did. senator cooper. was there anything about his appearance that was unusual? mr. baker. no, sir. whenever i called to him, well he turned around and i had my gun in my hand, you know, and he started walking back towards me and i walked to meet him, and i met him at that doorway over there and about that time mr. truly who had started on up the stairs and then he came back, he found that i wasn't with him, came back, and walked up there aside of him and just about the time we met all three of us got there together and i turned to mr. truly and i asked him, and i said, "do you know this man? does he work here?" and he said, "yes," and that is whenever i turned and went on up the stairs. at that time he didn't say a word, he didn't change the expression or nothing on him. mr. dulles. you testified, i believe, that he did not seem to be out of breath? mr. baker. that is right, sir. senator cooper. he did not show any evidence of any emotion? mr. baker. no, sir. senator cooper. did you see anyone else while you were in the building, other than this man you have identified later as oswald, and mr. truly? mr. baker. on the first floor there were two men. as we came through the main doorway to the elevators, i remember as we tried to get on the elevators i remember two men, one was sitting on this side and another one between or feet away from us looking at us. mr. dulles. were they white men? mr. baker. yes, sir. mr. belin. officer baker, we have an exhibit here showing the first floor of the school book depository building, and the top part of the exhibit is south. it is a little bit upside down from the usual top being north. you will notice here the stairway in the front of the building. mr. baker. yes, sir. mr. belin. and then there is a glass swinging door which i believe is shown there. could you mark the point at which you believe you were when you called out for someone to tell you where the stairway or elevator was? mr. baker. is that the steps on the outside and this is the---- mr. belin. these are the steps on the outside, this is the door, the first door and this is kind of the main lobby here, below the words "main entrance." mr. baker. well, as you come up the steps, there is a glass door here in front of the building. mr. belin. pardon me, this will be the recessed glass door right here swinging? mr. baker. all of this is the lobby. mr. belin. yes, that is all the lobby. mr. baker. ok. this is the first door that you open to get in. mr. belin. yes. mr. baker. and this is the lobby. mr. belin. yes. mr. baker. and then you have another set of glass doors. mr. belin. there is another door right here, yes. mr. baker. and on through this one you have a swinging door, a little old counter-type door that swings---- mr. belin. this would be the swinging door which would be to the west of the room marked "mr. truly's office" on exhibit ? mr. baker. that is right, sir. mr. belin. where would you have been when you were yelling would someone tell you about the stairs or the elevator? mr. baker. at this point approximately where the "t" is here. mr. belin. you would be where the "t" is? mr. baker. i was standing inside the front doors and i wasn't too far from this door here. mr. belin. that would be the, what i call the, middle set of doors as you come in, between the front set of doors and the doors by the side of mr. truly's office, that little half door there. mr. baker. yes, sir. mr. belin. and you were at the point as marked on exhibit approximately where the word "t" is. mr. baker. this lobby, to the best of my recollection, it seemed to me like, would--i would say, about feet wide or something like that. mr. belin. yes. mr. baker. and i had come in there, oh, say, or feet whenever i said, "where is the stairway or the elevator?" mr. belin. i wonder if you could show us on exhibit the route that you took from the first floor to the time you went to the elevator? mr. baker. i came through the first set of doors, the second set and this second little old counter-type here, and kind of ran through that, from the southwest corner here through this swinging door. mr. belin. that is by mr. truly's office? mr. baker. yes, sir; to the northwest corner here. mr. belin. by the west elevator. mr. baker. west elevator, that is right. mr. belin. would this be roughly along the pen line already in there, would you estimate? mr. baker. yes, sir; that is pretty close to it. mr. belin. you then went to the east elevator where mr. truly first pushed the button for the elevator? mr. baker. yes, sir. mr. dulles. any further questions? mr. attorney general, do you have any questions? mr. carr. there is just one. there were many people around there at that time, and the rest of the day---- mr. dulles. you are talking now about the depository building? mr. carr. yes, sir; at the time he has been testifying about. did you have occasion during the rest of the day either in passing visits or idle conversation or anything of that type with any of the people that were there at the time who might have seen something or told you some theory they had about what might have happened? mr. baker. not until last friday morning. chief lunday, which is my chief in traffic, called me and asked me to go down to this texas depository building, and i had--i have worked traffic outside several times but i never did go inside or talk to any of the employees. mr. carr. i am referring to the people who were out there at the time of the shooting. did you have a chance during that day to talk with any of them or did you overhear any conversations that might be material to the investigation here? mr. baker. the only ones that i talked to would be the solo officers who were around him. mr. dulles. around whom? mr. baker. around the president's car at that time. mr. dulles. what was the nature of those conversations? mr. baker. well, we just were discussing, each one of us had a theory, you know where, how it happened, and really none of us knew how it happened, it just happened, and where they was at in place, you know, in reference to the car, would be about the only thing they could say, and at the time the first shot they didn't know where the shot came from. the second shot they still didn't know, and then the third shot some of them over to the left-hand side, the blood and everything hit their helmets and their windshields and then they knew it had to come from behind. mr. belin. say this again, officer baker. when you say some were on the left-hand side? mr. baker. yes, i believe officer b. j. martin---- mr. belin. is he a motorcycle policeman? mr. baker. yes, sir; he is. mr. belin. on a one- or two-wheeler or three-wheeler? mr. baker. he is a solo motorcycle, two-wheeler. mr. belin. where was he riding at this time? mr. baker. he was on the left front. mr. belin. of what? mr. baker. there were five motorcycle officers in front. there were four, two on each right side behind. mr. belin. when you say in front and behind of what vehicle? mr. baker. we are referring to the president's car. mr. belin. all right. he was on the front and to the left of the president's car. mr. baker. yes, sir; that is right. mr. belin. what did he say to you about blood or something? mr. baker. like i say, we were talking about where the shot came from, and he said the first shot he couldn't figure it out where it came from. he turned his head backward, reflex, you know, and then he turned back and the second shot came off, and then the third shot is when the blood and everything hit his helmet and his windshield. mr. belin. did it hit the inside or the outside of his windshield, did he say? mr. baker. it hit all this inside. now, as far as the inside or outside of the windshield. i don't know about that. but it was all on the right-hand side of his helmet. mr. belin. of his helmet? mr. baker. on his uniform also. mr. belin. on his uniform. mr. baker. that is right. mr. belin. and he was riding to the left of the president and you say ahead of the president? mr. baker. on the left-hand side. mr. dulles. but a little ahead of him? mr. baker. yes, sir. they were immediately in front of the car. mr. dulles. any other conversations--pardon me, does that answer your question? mr. carr. i was more interested, sir, in that, of course, but with the laymen around there. there was a lot of talk and theorizing at the time and i was just wondering what he might have heard from any of the laymen, or just ordinary onlookers of the parade, did you get a chance to talk to any of them? mr. baker. at that time i didn't get a chance to talk to any of those. at that time i immediately got on my motorcycle and went on down to the trade mart down there where he was set up for the luncheon and at the time i got on there i didn't stop until here come a sergeant and a medical examiner and they wanted me to take them code to parkland, at the time i got there we stood around the president's car there and kept the crowd back, and that is where i stayed until, i think we left after they loaded the body, we went to love field and stayed there for, say, minutes or something like that. mr. belin. did you talk to--pardon me, sir, does that take care of your questions? mr. carr. yes, sir; thank you very much. mr. dulles. any further questions? mr. carr. no; thank you, sir. mr. belin. did you talk to any of the other officers who were in or about the president's vehicle at the time of the shooting? mr. baker. yes, sir; i talked to several of them and all of them had kind of had the same story, you know. it had to come from above and behind. mr. belin. when did you talk to these officers, like officer martin? mr. baker. that was--i didn't talk to him until we got back to the city hall, which we got off, we were supposed to get off at o'clock that day, we got off around the same time, they called us all in together. mr. belin. what other officers did you talk to and what did they say that you remember? mr. baker. i talked to jim chaney, and he made the statement that the two shots hit kennedy first and then the other one hit the governor. mr. belin. where was he? mr. baker. he was on the right rear of the car or to the side, and then at that time the chief of police, he didn't know anything about this, and he moved up and told him, and then that was during the time that the secret service men were trying to get in the car, and at the time, after the shooting, from the time the first shot rang out, the car stopped completely, pulled to the left and stopped. mr. belin. the president's car? mr. baker. yes, sir. now, i have heard several of them say that, mr. truly was standing out there, he said it stopped. several officers said it stopped completely. mr. dulles. you saw it stop, did you? mr. baker. no, sir; i didn't see it stop. mr. dulles. you just heard from others that it had stopped? mr. baker. yes, sir; that it had completely stopped, and then for a moment there, and then they rushed on out to parkland. mr. belin. officer baker, did this officer chaney say anything else about, for instance, where he thought the source of the shots was? mr. baker. not--he knew they came from behind him but he didn't know where. he said from down there they was kind of going down that hill and said that shot, the sound of it, you couldn't tell just exactly where it came from. mr. belin. how did he know it came from behind then? mr. baker. because he was riding from behind, and whenever it hit the president, he said he would see him fall. mr. belin. now, you are giving a motion now, did he see him fall backwards first or forwards or when you say fall what do you mean by that? mr. baker. well, he just said, when they hit he kind of fell, so i assumed he went to the left of him. mr. belin. all right. did any other officer say anything to you about what he saw or thought what happened? mr. baker. i talked to several of them but i can't remember exactly, you know, just what their story was. mr. belin. was there anyone you talked to who thought the shots came from the front? mr. baker. no, sir; not except that the chief of police that is the only one. now, that, like i say, that is the last thing i heard over that radio is "get some men up on that railroad." now, that could mean they either came from the side, which is due north, or right across in front of him. you know---- mr. belin. well, apart from the statement you testified to that the chief of police made over the radio about the underpass, was there any policeman or patrolman who was in the motorcade who in any way indicated to you that the shots came from the front? mr. baker. no, sir. senator cooper. i would like to ask a couple of questions. i think you said when you went inside the depository you saw no one except the man you later identified as oswald, and mr. truly. there were two people sitting down on the first floor. mr. baker. as i entered that depository building, i was--people were running toward you, i don't know whether they worked there or whether they were just trying to get out of the way. mr. dulles. from inside the building? mr. baker. no; from the street in. as i ran in i was pushing them aside and running through them, and some way, mr. truly got from my back to my front. now, he said he was right behind me. i never did see him until i got in and asked the question of where the stairs was, so evidently whenever i went in the door why he came on in. there were several people coming in as i, you know, came in, there were several in front of me and also around my sides and my back. and it seemed to me like a double door deal. senator cooper. as you went up on the elevator could you see out of the elevator onto floors? mr. baker. yes, sir. the best that i could, that is the reason i wasn't paying too much attention to the elevator i was looking around all those floors. senator cooper. did you see anyone? mr. belin. when you say up on the elevator, he didn't get on the elevator until he had got up on the stairs. senator cooper. i am aware of that. mr. baker. i was still looking. senator cooper. you went up on the second floor by stairs? mr. baker. yes, sir. senator cooper. then you got on the elevator. mr. belin. no, sir; he didn't get on the elevator until the fifth floor. senator cooper. anyway, as you walked up the stairs could you see into each floor space as you passed from floor to floor? mr. baker. partly. now, this building has got pillars in it, you know, and then it has got books, cases of books stacked all in it. and the best that i could, you know, i would look through there and see if i could see anybody. senator cooper. did you see anyone? mr. baker. no, sir. senator cooper. when you looked? mr. baker. not from the second floor on up. senator cooper. as you approached the building by motorcycle, did you notice whether anyone was looking out of the windows of the texas school book depository? mr. baker. yes, sir. those windows, i would say a number of them were open and i tell you, to the best of my recollection, i scanned those windows, but i can't recall anybody looking out of them, you know. i looked at all them buildings so much and there were people looking out of every one of them, every doorway and every window, and i really was looking high more at the roof of it than i was anything, and i really didn't see nothing in the windows. senator cooper. i may be repeating because i missed the first part of his testimony. mr. dulles. go ahead. senator cooper. but when you heard the shot, you said later you saw some pigeons fly up. mr. baker. yes, sir. senator cooper. what was the sequence of time between the time you saw the flight of the pigeons and you heard the shot? mr. baker. as i got that motorcycle straightened up, and i hadn't gone just a very few feet there, it didn't seem like, you know, i went very far, but it is possible i went, we figured maybe , to feet there, and i looked up, as the shots started, i immediately looked up, you know. i was already facing ahead and i just kind of raised, i sighted up, and while i was looking up, those other two shots came off, and as i come up, i noticed those pigeons start to fly up there, but i really didn't see which, there were so many of them i couldn't tell which building they were coming from but i know they were all over. say you were facing north like houston they were in the sky facing north in the street. senator cooper. which way were the pigeons going? mr. baker. they were just coming up, you know. senator cooper. i assume you are a hunter, aren't you, from what you said? mr. baker. yes, sir; i try to be. senator cooper. have you seen birds in flight when they are suddenly startled? mr. baker. yes, sir. senator cooper. well, was this the character of the flight of pigeons you saw? mr. baker. yes, sir; that is the way it seemed to me, that these birds, you know, just with a sudden uprush. senator cooper. did you have any notice of anyone saying there might have been a shot from the railroad until you heard the statement over the radio just before you entered the school book depository? mr. baker. no, sir; that was the only words that i remember that was said over the radio from the time the shots rang out until i started parking that motorcycle, and when i came off of it i heard those words. senator cooper. could you see the railroad yards? mr. baker. yes, sir; i could see it--this track ran under this triple underpass to my left, all out behind this building. senator cooper. did you see anything there which attracted your attention other than---- mr. baker. nothing except---- senator cooper. crowd? mr. baker. there were people all over this track, over this triple underpass, and people just standing all over this sloping bank there, you know, going up. senator cooper. were there any officers that you saw near the school book depository when you went in? mr. baker. there was an officer working traffic on that corner, and officer j. w. williams was---- mr. dulles. by that corner you mean the corner of elm and houston? mr. baker. that is right, sir. j. w. williams who is a motorcycle officer, was, i thought, over on the left-hand side of me, and he was right with me, but as i ran in this building, i found out that i was by myself. i didn't know where anybody went. senator cooper. did you later see j. w. williams, officer williams? mr. baker. yes, sir. he stated that when the motorcade left with the president, and they immediately went code to parkland, why he was up there with him and he went up there with him. and i later saw him out there at parkland. mr. dulles. you testified, i believe, that you did not yourself see the president's car stop. you just were told it was stopped by several other officers? mr. baker. let me say, as i parked that motorcycle, i looked down there, well, the car had swerved to the left, and i saw this man run out into this crowd and back. i don't know who he was but i saw that and i saw these people following him, and all these pressmen jumping out of their cars and running down the street toward him. mr. belin. officer baker, do you know from where this man ran off into the crowd at all or not? mr. baker. apparently he came from one of the cars right there by the president's car. he was, he came from the motorcade, inside the motorcade out to the sidewalk and then back. mr. belin. all right. you mentioned the fact that you had gone or come back from deer hunting just prior to november , . mr. baker. yes, sir. mr. belin. what kind of a weapon did you have when you went deer hunting? mr. baker. i had one of these . - , i believe the springfield type. mr. belin. is it a rifle? mr. baker. yes, sir. mr. belin. automatic or bolt action? mr. baker. bolt action. mr. belin. how long have you owned a rifle, any rifle? mr. baker. this particular one i have had it approximately years. mr. belin. have you had much experience to go hunting? mr. baker. yes, sir. every year. mr. belin. every year you go deer hunting? mr. baker. yes, sir. mr. belin. you have had occasion to hear shots from your rifle? mr. baker. that is right, sir. mr. belin. from other rifles? mr. baker. yes, sir. mr. belin. did this in any way influence your decisions as to what you did on november as you heard the first sound? mr. baker. yes, sir; it did. mr. belin. in what way did it influence them? mr. baker. to me it was immediately a rifle shot. a lot of the solo officers said they thought it was the backfire from a motorcycle because you can make those motorcycles pop pretty loud. but that instant it just, i don't know, it just hit me as a rifle shot. senator cooper. how long have you been firing a rifle? mr. baker. say, from the time i was about years old. senator cooper. have you fired other types of rifles other than the one you used? mr. baker. yes, sir; the first one i had was a - marlin lever type. senator cooper. have you ever seen the rifle that is alleged to have belonged to lee oswald? mr. baker. i saw it, a photograph of it, in the newspaper. senator cooper. do you know what kind of rifle it is? mr. baker. not offhand. i heard it was some foreign make gun. most of the boys down there at the police department have had dealings with foreign type guns, rifles, you know of this kind, and a lot of them sell them, and a lot of them rework them, you know, make them into deer rifles. senator cooper. what were the characteristics of the report that you heard, three reports, which made you believe that it was a shot from a rifle? mr. baker. well, they were too distinct, you know, to be--i have heard that pop from that motorcycle and i have heard rifle shots, and to me there was just a difference in them. mr. belin. officer baker, did it appear to you that these sounds that you heard were from the same rifle or from possibly more than one rifle? mr. baker. i would say they was from the same rifle. mr. belin. did it appear that the sounds all came from the same source? mr. baker. yes, sir. mr. belin. with regard to the closeness of these sounds together, how fast they came, did it appear that it came from or that it could have come from a weapon that had to be operated by bolt action as opposed to a semiautomatic or an automatic weapon? mr. baker. it seemed to me like you could either fire a semi or bolt action in about the same time. mr. belin. have you had occasion to use a bolt action rifle and fire shots quickly one after the other? mr. baker. yes, sir; i have. mr. belin. did it appear that, from what you heard, that from your experience you could have operated your own bolt action rifle as quickly as those shots came? mr. baker. yes, sir. senator cooper. if you made any judgment, what was the length of time from the time you heard the first report until you heard the third? mr. baker. i would say just about as fast as you could bolt one of those bolt action rifles which wouldn't be--i don't believe it would be over seconds apart. mr. dulles. over what? mr. baker. three seconds apart. mr. belin. from each shot? mr. baker. yes, sir. mr. belin. three seconds from the first to the second and another seconds from the second to the third? mr. baker. yes, sir. mr. belin. you are saying not over seconds? mr. baker. not over seconds. mr. dulles. any further questions? thank you very much, officer baker. your testimony has been very helpful. (at this point senator cooper left the hearing room.) testimony of mrs. robert a. reid mr. dulles. mrs. reid, the chief justice had to leave a few moments and he expressed his regret to you. mrs. reid. yes. mr. dulles. so i am presiding over the commission at the present time. as you possibly have been informed, the purpose of the testimony this morning has been to hear the testimony of officer baker, yourself, and certain others who were in the vicinity of the texas school book depository building at the time of the assassination of the president, and we will ask you give testimony in that connection and anything else you may know. would you please rise, mrs. reid, and hold up your right hand. do you swear the testimony you will give before this commission is the truth, the whole truth, so help you god, and nothing but the truth? mrs. reid. i do. mr. dulles. mr. belin will carry forward the interrogation. mr. belin. we met in dallas on friday, march . mrs. reid. that is right. mr. belin. mrs. reid, could you state your name for the commission, please? mrs. reid. mrs. robert a. reid. mr. belin. that is r-e-i-d? mrs. reid. r-e-i-d, that is right. mr. belin. where do you live, mrs. reid? mrs. reid. elmwood boulevard, dallas, tex. mr. belin. and are you originally from dallas? mrs. reid. well, i have been for quite a number of years. i was born out in a little town out from dallas, cereal, tex. mr. belin. how long did you go to school in dallas? did you go through high school? mrs. reid. i completed high school there and i married and went to waxahachie and lived there about years and moved back to dallas then. mr. belin. do you have any family, mrs. reid? mrs. reid. you mean like sisters or my children? mr. belin. well, children. mrs. reid. both, i have six sisters and i have two children and a grandchild. mr. belin. you have a grandchild? mrs. reid. and a husband, and a family. mr. belin. what is your occupation, mrs. reid? mrs. reid. i am a clerical supervisor. mr. belin. for what company? mrs. reid. texas school book depository. mr. belin. how long have you worked for the texas school book depository? mrs. reid. i have been years. mr. belin. have you been a clerical supervisor all the time? mrs. reid. no; i started out in the department on what they call their postage desk and i was appointed to a clerical supervisor. mr. belin. mrs. reid, i am taking you to november , . mrs. reid. all right. mr. belin. where were you on that day commencing with, say, around noon or so? mrs. reid. well, at i went to lunch, and i had my lunch rather hurriedly so that i might go downstairs and watch the parade. mr. belin. mrs. reid, you say you ate your lunch? mrs. reid. yes; i did. mr. belin. where did you eat your lunch? mrs. reid. in our lunchroom, in the lunchroom. mr. belin. where is that? mrs. reid. well---- mr. belin. on what floor? mrs. reid. on two, the same floor as our office. mr. belin. that is on the second floor? mrs. reid. yes, sir. mr. belin. did you buy your lunch or bring your lunch? mrs. reid. no; i brought my lunch. mr. belin. was there anyone in the lunchroom when you were eating lunch? mrs. reid. yes. mr. belin. do you remember who was there? mrs. reid. well, the girls that work under me, the young ladies, goodness, it is all hard for me to remember how many there were, but the general ones that usually eat there with me every day. mr. belin. on commission exhibit , is this room, this lunchroom, the one that is marked "lunchroom" here with the numbers and in it? mrs. reid. that is right. mr. belin. and that is where you ate? mrs. reid. yes. mr. belin. and on commission exhibit do you work on the second floor also? mrs. reid. i do. mr. belin. in the area marked with the room "office space," somewhere in that room? mrs. reid. over here. mr. belin. you say you work over near the dumbwaiter which is marked? mrs. reid. my desk---- mr. belin. your desk is near the dumbwaiter on exhibit . mr. dulles. that is the desk there, is it? mr. belin. that is the dumbwaiter. mr. dulles. oh, yes. mr. belin. now, mrs. reid, you left lunch about what time? mrs. reid. well, i left, i ate my lunch hurriedly, i wasn't watching the time but i wanted to be sure of getting out on the streets in time for the parade before he got there, and i called my husband, who works at the records building, and they had a radio in their office and they were listening as the parade progressed and he told me they were running about minutes late. but i went down rather soon and stood on the steps. mr. dulles. where was your husband working? mrs. reid. he works for the records building. mr. belin. where is that located? mrs. reid. well, it is off the left-hand side, kind of cater-cornered across from our building. mr. belin. the records building has one side of it on elm street running from houston to record street? mrs. reid. yes. mr. belin. and i believe it is on, it would run on, the south side of elm? mrs. reid. yes. mr. belin. is that correct? mrs. reid. yes. mr. belin. all right. do you know about what time it was that you left the lunchroom, was it , : ? mrs. reid. i think around : somewhere along in there. mr. belin. all right. when you left the lunchroom, did you leave with the other girls? mrs. reid. no; i didn't. the younger girls had gone and i left alone. mr. belin. were you the last person in the lunchroom? mrs. reid. no; i could not say that because i don't remember that part of it because i was going out of the building by myself, i wasn't even, you know, connected with anyone at all. mr. belin. were there any men in the lunchroom when you left there? mrs. reid. i can't, i don't, remember that. mr. belin. all right. mrs. reid. i can't remember the time they left. mr. belin. now, you went out from the lunchroom; turning to exhibit , you went from the lunchroom through the door, which would be the west door, and then through the doorway marked number on the exhibit there or did you instead go to the front? mrs. reid. no; i came back through the office. mr. belin. you didn't go through the door marked ? mrs. reid. no; i did not. mr. belin. you came out through this first door of the lunchroom? mrs. reid. that is right. mr. belin. and then you turned which way? mrs. reid. turned this way. mr. belin. you turned to your left and went through the door which is between numbers and ? mrs. reid. that is right. mr. belin. on exhibit , and you went back to your office. did you go by your desk? mrs. reid. i am sure i did because i usually leave my purse in there until i get ready to go out and then pick it up. mr. belin. all right. you walked toward the number marked on exhibit ? mrs. reid. that is right. mr. belin. then where did you walk? mrs. reid. i came over here and got my jacket and scarf out of the closet. mr. belin. all right. you are now pointing to the closet on exhibit which would be located on the east side of the building? mrs. reid. that is right. mr. belin. toward the front. then what did you do? mrs. reid. i came and went out this door. mr. belin. you are, you went out the door which is marked on exhibit as room , is that correct? mrs. reid. that is right. mr. belin. what did you do? mrs. reid. i got on the elevator. mr. belin. now, there is an elevator along the east wall toward the front of the building, is that correct? mrs. reid. that is right. mr. belin. is this a freight or passenger? mrs. reid. it is a passenger. mr. belin. do you know how far this elevator goes or how high? mrs. reid. fourth floor. mr. belin. fourth floor. you got on the elevator on the second floor? mrs. reid. that is right. mr. belin. then what did you do? mrs. reid. came down on the first floor. mr. belin. then you came on the first floor. mrs. reid. went out the front door of our building. mr. belin. went out the front door. mrs. reid. i stood on the steps for several minutes. mrs. belin. all right. mrs. reid. shall i continue? mr. belin. yes. mrs. reid. until i saw the parade coming around the corner from main and houston and when i did i walked out to the street so i would be nearer to the people, and i walked out and was standing by mr. truly and mr. campbell. mr. belin. all right. this was in front of the steps, ma'am? mrs. reid. well, no; i had gone out directly in the front but i had gotten nearer to the street than the steps. mr. belin. you were actually onto the street then as the motorcade came by? mrs. reid. yes; that is right. there is a part in there where our streets, one goes this way and one kind of goes off this way, and the line of parade they were going that way and i got right on the curb and was standing there. mr. belin. well, turning to exhibit , the top of exhibit faces south and this is houston street, here is the school book depository building that i am pointing to. can you give any estimate as to where you were with relation to this, well, i will call it a peninsula of land between the parkway and the building. mrs. reid. you have got me turned around. mr. belin. the parade was coming along houston. mrs. reid. i was standing about along in here, in here. mr. belin. you were standing a little bit to the north of the spot marked "b" on exhibit . mrs. reid. that is right. mr. belin. and you would be directly in front of the main entrance of the school book depository, is that correct? mrs. reid. that is correct. mr. belin. now, by "b" i am referring to, on exhibit , i am referring to the pen ink--pen and ink "b" which is directly to the east of what i will call the traffic light on that peninsula of land as elm goes into the parkway there. all right, what did you see? mrs. reid. you mean when i was standing there? mr. belin. what did you see and hear and do? mrs. reid. well, i was naturally watching for the car as the president came by. i looked at him and i was very anxious to see mrs. kennedy, i looked at her and i was going to see how she was dressed and she was dressed very attractive and she put up her hand to her hat and was holding it on, the wind was blowing a little bit and then went on right on by me and that is the last as far as the parade, i mean as far as they were concerned. i did see johnson, and that was it. i can't even tell you any more about the parade because after the shots i didn't know any part about that. mr. belin. what did you see and hear and do after that? mrs. reid. well, when i heard--i heard three shots. mr. belin. you heard three shots? mrs. reid. and i turned to mr. campbell and i said, "oh, my goodness, i am afraid those came from our building," because it seemed like they came just so directly over my head, and then i looked up in the windows, and saw three colored boys up there, i only recognized one because i didn't know the rest of them so well. mr. belin. which one did you know? mrs. reid. james jarman. mr. belin. you recognized james jarman? mrs. reid. yes; because i had had some dealings with him in the business part and i knew him. i couldn't have told you the other two at all because i didn't know them. mr. belin. do you remember that floor you saw them on? mrs. reid. well, i wasn't exactly looking at the floor, i don't know, i would say a couple of floors up. i mean several anyway. i don't know exactly. mr. belin. you don't remember which floor it was. mrs. reid. i couldn't tell you because, you know, i didn't count the floors and i didn't count them, and i made the statement "oh, i hope they don't think any of our boys have done this" and i had no thoughts of anything like that. i turned and went back in the building. mr. belin. all right. now, let me ask you this then. mrs. reid. all right. mr. belin. before you turned and went back into the building did you--did mr. campbell say anything to you? mrs. reid. he said, "oh, mrs. reid, no, it came from the grassy area down this way," and that was the last i said to him. mr. belin. all right. when he said "this way" which direction was he pointing? mrs. reid. well, i hope i get my directions. in the direction of the parade was going, in the bottom of that direction. mr. belin. now, did you look around after the shots and notice what people were doing? mrs. reid. well, it was just a mass of confusion. i saw people beginning to fall, and the thought that went through my mind, my goodness i must get out of this line of shots, they may fire some more. and don't ask me why i went into the building because i don't know. mr. belin. did you see anything else of people running or doing anything else? mrs. reid. no; because i ran into the building. i do not recall seeing anyone in the lobby. i ran up to our office. mr. belin. all right. mr. dulles. just second there. how long after the third shot did you run into the building? mr. belin. mr. dulles, we did a reconstruction on that time sequence on friday and i am going to come to that as soon as i get the route first. mr. dulles. right. mr. belin. you went into the building in the main lobby? mrs. reid. yes; i did. mr. belin. did you take the elevator or the stairs? mrs. reid. no; i went up the stairs. mr. belin. was this the front stairs or the back stairs? mrs. reid. no; the front stairs. mr. belin. all right. you went up through the stairs and then what did you do? mrs. reid. i went into the office. mr. belin. you went into your office? mrs. reid. yes. mr. belin. and then what did you do? mrs. reid. well, i kept walking and i looked up and oswald was coming in the back door of the office. i met him by the time i passed my desk several feet and i told him, i said, "oh, the president has been shot, but maybe they didn't hit him." he mumbled something to me, i kept walking, he did, too. i didn't pay any attention to what he said because i had no thoughts of anything of him having any connection with it at all because he was very calm. he had gotten a coke and was holding it in his hands and i guess the reason it impressed me seeing him in there i thought it was a little strange that one of the warehouse boys would be up in the office at the time, not that he had done anything wrong. the only time i had seen him in the office was to come and get change and he already had his coke in his hand so he didn't come for change and i dismissed him. i didn't think anything else. mr. belin. when you saw him, i believe you said you first saw him when he was coming through the door? mrs. reid. yes, sir. mr. belin. turning to exhibit , what doorway was it where you first saw him? mrs. reid. right here. mr. belin. you are pointing to the doorway between numbers and ? mrs. reid. that is right. mr. belin. on exhibit ? mrs. reid. that is right. mr. belin. where were you when you saw him in that doorway? mrs. reid. i was coming right through here. mr. belin. you are pointing to what number there? mrs. reid. well, it is . mr. belin. . and then about where were you when you actually passed him or had this exchange? mrs. reid. right along here. i passed my desk. mr. belin. why don't you put on exhibit an "x" as to where you were when you thought you passed him. mrs. reid. here. mr. belin. i wonder if you would put the initial "r" which we will put for mrs. reid. mrs. reid. all right. mr. belin. by the "x" and that is where you were when you passed him. on march you and i met for the first time, didn't we, mrs. reid? mrs. reid. that is right. mr. belin. we sat down and i asked you to tell me what happened and you related the story. did i keep on questioning you or did you tell me what happened? mrs. reid. well, i more or less told you what had happened. mr. belin. all right. then we went out on the street, did we not, in front of the building, with a stopwatch, do you remember that? mrs. reid. yes; i surely do. it was kind of cool. mr. belin. it was kind of cool wasn't it, and a little bit windy. mrs. reid. yes; it was; yes. mr. belin. and when in dallas, we started the stopwatch from the time that the last shot was fired, is that correct? mrs. reid. that is right. mr. belin. and then you went through your actions, what you saw, your conversations that you had, and your actions in going back into the building and up to the point that you saw lee harvey oswald? mrs. reid. that is right. mr. belin. do you remember how long by the stopwatch it took you? mrs. reid. approximately minutes. mr. dulles. i didn't hear you. mrs. reid. two minutes. mr. belin. from the time of the last shot the time you and oswald crossed? mrs. reid. yes; i believe that is the way we timed it. mr. belin. when you--you saw me start the stopwatch and you saw me stop it there, right? mrs. reid. yes. mr. belin. when you met in the lunchroom---- mrs. reid. i didn't meet him in the lunchroom. mr. belin. pardon me, when you met in the office, which direction were you going, looking toward exhibit , as you look on it, which direction were you going toward the left or right? mrs. reid. you mean as i came in the office? i turned in and turned to my left. mr. belin. that would be heading in a westerly direction is that right? mrs. reid. yes. mr. belin. what direction was oswald walking? mrs. reid. he was going east. mr. belin. did you see him actually walk through or coming through the door there? mrs. reid. he had just gotten to the door, was stepping in as i glanced up. mr. belin. he was stepping in as you glanced up? mrs. reid. yes. mr. belin. had you ever--you said, i will put it this way, had you ever seen oswald in that second floor office space before apart from the time of getting his pay? mrs. reid. well, one other time he came in, now he might have been in to get that change for this time but i didn't see him going up there, and he made a remark to one of the girls back there and she said, "well, he sure is calm." and i said, "what did he say to you?" and she says, "i have a baby," and he stopped and i said, "well, he is pretty calm just having a new baby," and outside of that i never remember seeing him other than to come in to get change. mr. belin. what about the other men in the warehouse, did they have occasion to come into that office space? mrs. reid. occasionally they come up to get change. mr. belin. apart from getting change or getting paid? mrs. reid. no; very seldom unless they are sent up there to get something. i mean they just don't come in there and wander around. it is some business for them. now, i did see him in the lunchroom a few times prior to this eating his lunch but i didn't even know his name. mr. belin. did you know his name on the day you saw him? mrs. reid. no; i did not. when i saw his picture i still didn't know his name until they told us who it was. mr. belin. how did you know the person you saw was lee harvey oswald on the second floor? mrs. reid. because it looked just like him. mr. belin. you mean the picture with the name lee harvey oswald? mrs. reid. oh, yes. mr. belin. but you had seen him in the building? mrs. reid. other than that day, sure. mr. belin. do you remember what clothes he had on when you saw him? mrs. reid. what he was wearing, he had on a white t-shirt and some kind of wash trousers. what color i couldn't tell you. mr. belin. i am going to hand you what has been marked commission exhibit, first and then , and i will ask you if either or both look like they might have been the trousers that you saw him wear or can you tell? mrs. reid. i just couldn't be positive about that. i would rather not say, because i just cannot. mr. belin. do you remember whether he had any shirt or jacket on over his t-shirt? mrs. reid. he did not. he did not have any jacket on. mr. belin. have you ever seen anyone working at the book depository wearing any kind of a shirt or jacket similar to commission exhibit or do you know? mrs. reid. no; i do not. i have never, so far as i know ever seen that shirt. i have been asked about that shirt before, i have seen it once before but not since all this happened. mr. belin. all right. mrs. reid, if a person were in the lunchroom with a coke on the second floor, and then wanted to get to the front stairway or front elevator, would there be only one route to get there or would there be more than one? mrs. reid. yes; he could either go around this hallway, or back here in this hallway or he could have gotten through our office or---- mr. belin. all right. i wonder if in the first hallway you could mark route there so we have it on . mrs. reid. does it matter? mr. belin. that is fine. mrs. reid. you said the front stairway, too? mr. belin. that is the front stairway. you have put a number , i am going to put "r- ". mrs. reid. all right. mr. belin. and that will be one hallway to go down to get from the lunchroom to the front stairway? mrs. reid. that is right. mr. belin. now, would there be another way to get there? mrs. reid. he can come through the office. mr. belin. you could come through the office? mrs. reid. yes. mr. belin. which is the way lee harvey oswald was walking? mrs. reid. that is right. mr. belin. would any one way be faster than the other or not? mrs. reid. it couldn't be very much faster because it is practically the same distance here that it is here and you have got this hallway there. mr. belin. so, either "r- " or going through the office marked would be approximately the same? mrs. reid. yes. mr. belin. now, where you saw lee harvey oswald is there kind of a pathway through there without any obstructions for desks? mrs. reid. yes; there is, sort of a passageway. mr. belin. you passed at point what you have marked with an "x"? mrs. reid. yes. mr. belin. is that correct? mrs. reid. yes. mr. belin. with an "r" and "x" to it? mrs. reid. yes. mr. belin. did lee harvey oswald walk past you? mrs. reid. yes; he did. mr. belin. kept on walking in the same direction? mrs. reid. yes, sir. mr. belin. how far did you see him go? mrs. reid. i didn't turn around to look. he went on straight, he did not go on past the back door because i was facing that way. what he did after that---- mr. belin. but you know he did not go out the same back door he came in? mrs. reid. no; he did not. mr. belin. do you know whether or not he went into the conference room? mrs. reid. well, i wouldn't think he did because this door off here was locked and i had unlocked it for the policeman myself. mr. belin. all right, let's put an arrow here to the door that you say was locked, and we will put--do you want to put in the word "locked" in there, if you would, please? mrs. reid. all right. mr. dulles. on which side was it locked or did you take the key away, was it locked so that you---- mrs. reid. i would go in from this way. i wasn't going in from our office into the conference room. mr. dulles. and you locked that door? mrs. reid. we did. they had asked me, i went in there with the policeman into the conference room. mr. dulles. did you take the key? mrs. reid. yes, sir; i did, i got it for mr. williams. mr. dulles. no; i mean after you locked the door do you leave the key in the lock? mrs. reid. no. mr. belin. what i want to know is this, mrs. reid. when you came back up into the building after the shooting and you walked into the conference room, at that time was the door which you have marked "locked," was it locked at that time when you came in? mrs. reid. yes, sir; it was to--it was locked when i got to it, i will say that. mr. belin. let me ask you this. had you been the one who had locked it before or don't you know? mrs. reid. oh, no, i couldn't say that because too many people used the conference room. i would have no way of knowing who locked it or if it is left unlocked. the porter locks it in the evening. mr. belin. all right. if one is locking that door with a key do you lock the door from the inside of the conference room? mrs. reid. either way. mr. belin. or the outside, either way? mrs. reid. either way. mr. belin. who has custody of the key? mrs. reid. i got that from mr. williams' desk, because that is where i got it from, and then the porter has one. i could not say. they all have the keys. mr. belin. when did you get it to unlock the door? mrs. reid. well, by the time the policeman got there and started searching our floor. i can't recall whether i had taken him into the lounge first because they had me to go in there with him, the ladies' lounge, or whether they went in there because there is a little stand in here that mr. cason uses when we have a conference, and he jerked it back because it would have been humanly possible for a person to have gotten in there, but it was up against the wall and there was no one there. mr. belin. would this have been more or less than minutes after you got back in the building that you opened the lounge? mrs. reid. that is where you all get me in this time because i was not watching the clock that day. mr. belin. that is all right. mrs. reid. time really didn't mean anything to us because they, the police officers, just came in on us and began to ask so many questions. mr. belin. when you were at point "rx" and moving, if someone would have walked into the conference room would you have heard him in any way? mrs. reid. i could have heard him open the door. mr. belin. you could hear them open the door. during the time, the period of time you were there and saw lee harvey oswald, did you hear anyone open the door to the conference room? mrs. reid. i do not recall any. mr. belin. from your best judgment, if lee harvey oswald didn't go into the conference room and didn't go back to the door marked around between and , how would he have gotten out of the office? mrs. reid. right straight out this door down this stairway and out the front door. mr. belin. you are saying right down the hallway in the direction in which the arrow number is pointing? mrs. reid. that is right. mr. belin. down through the hall and down through the front stairway. have you ever talked to anyone there who ever saw lee harvey oswald leave the building? mrs. reid. no; i haven't. mr. belin. do you know of your own personal knowledge how he got out of the building? mrs. reid. no; i do not, i do not. i have no idea. mr. belin. mrs. reid, did you notice whether or not the man you ran into on the second floor whom you now identify as lee harvey oswald was carrying anything in either arm other than a coke? mrs. reid. no. mr. belin. was the coke full or empty? mrs. reid. it was full. mr. belin. it was full. was there anything else you noticed about him? mrs. reid. no. mr. belin. anything about the expression on his face? mrs. reid. no; just calm. mr. belin. anything about whether or not his clothes were clean or dirty? mrs. reid. well, they were clean. mr. belin. anything about whether or not his hair was combed or mussed? mrs. reid. no; i did not. there wasn't anything unusual. mr. belin. you say he mumbled something? mrs. reid. he did. mr. belin. could you even remember one word that he mumbled? mrs. reid. i did not because he kept moving and i did, too, and i was just not interested in what he was saying, it was just the excitement of time and i didn't even say, "what did you say?" because i wasn't interested. mr. dulles. was he moving fast? mrs. reid. no; because he was moving at a very slow pace, i never did see him moving fast at any time. mr. belin. he was moving just at his normal walk? mrs. reid. yes. mr. belin. do you remember whether he was wearing any pieces of jewelry like a watch or bracelet or ring or something? mrs. reid. no; i do not remember that. mr. belin. mrs. reid, did you ever have any personal contact with lee harvey oswald about such things as his paycheck or anything like that? mrs. reid. no; i did not. mr. belin. do you remember what hand he was carrying his coke in? mrs. reid. yes. mr. belin. in what hand? mrs. reid. in his right hand. mr. belin. mrs. reid, we thank you very much. mr. dulles. just one moment. mr. belin. pardon me, do you have a question, sir? mr. dulles. how many times do you think you saw mr. oswald during the period he was employed? mrs. reid. my goodness. mr. dulles. roughly. mrs. reid. it couldn't have been---- mr. dulles. five times, times? mrs. reid. i would say five times. at times i would go down to mr. truly's office for some business. i would see him across the floor, but he paid no attention to you and there were times, the few times, he ate lunch up there but he never talked to anyone. mr. dulles. never talked to anyone? mrs. reid. and he was usually reading, i noticed that. mr. dulles. did he seem to repel ordinary conversational attempts or didn't you try that? mrs. reid. i never did try it, i never did. mr. dulles. you never tried it. mrs. reid. he seemed to be interested in what he was doing, i would never see anyone talking to him at all in the lunchroom so far as i can recall, not any time. mr. dulles. who in the organization so far as you know would have handled his paychecks? mrs. reid. mr. campbell. mr. dulles. campbell would have handled his paychecks. mrs. reid. he makes them out and then he sends them to mr. truly and i am sure he distributes it to his employees. mr. belin. two questions, mrs. reid. mrs. reid. all right. mr. belin. when we reconstructed your actions on friday, march , which you said it took about minutes, would you say that this was a maximum or minimum time? mrs. reid. well, it wasn't any less than that i am sure because minutes time---- mr. belin. did we kind of run? mrs. reid. yes, we did, three times. mr. belin. three times. mrs. reid. i remember that. mr. belin. and we were both huffing and puffing? mrs. reid. yes, we were. i know i was that day, i think. mr. belin. mrs. reid, since the tragedy of november , have there been any discussions that you have heard among any employees which might relate to the character insofar as the personal habits or what-have-you of lee harvey oswald? mrs. reid. the only thing i have heard anybody say was he never talked to anybody, he always went about his business, that is the only thing i heard the employees say. mr. belin. did you ever hear anyone say that he might have been friendly with at least one other employee? mrs. reid. no; i have not. mr. dulles. did the employees discuss him at all among themselves? mrs. reid. you mean prior to this? mr. dulles. prior, during the period he was employed there? mrs. reid. no. mr. dulles. at the book depository? mrs. reid. i never heard it. mr. dulles. they did not discuss him in your presence, the office employees? mrs. reid. well, the office employees and the warehouse employees are not connected. we talk to them, naturally some of them have been there a long time. mr. dulles. was it your usual practice to take lunch in the lunchroom on the second floor? mrs. reid. yes, it is; every day. mr. dulles. do you recall whether it was lee harvey oswald's usual practice or how many times possibly you saw him there at lunch with you and the others? mrs. reid. you mean did he come up every day? no, he did not. mr. dulles. would you think he came up half the days or could you give any--half the working days? mrs. reid. no; i wouldn't say he came that often. i can't recall seeing him up there but three times. we have said since then, since he sat there and didn't say anything and was reading we have often wondered what we discussed before him because we all have a general conversation every day at noon but i don't know we would have said anything that interested him. but you wondered was he listening to what we were saying, i don't know whether he heard anything but he may have heard what we were saying. mr. dulles. you, of course, knew that lee harvey oswald was an employee of the school book depository? mrs. reid. you mean by name before this happened? mr. dulles. that the individual that you later knew was oswald was one of the employees of the school book? mrs. reid. yes, because i had seen him working in the building. mr. dulles. yes. attorney general carr, do you have any questions? mr. carr. mrs. reid, have you had occasion to visit with any of oswald's relatives, his wife or mother? mrs. reid. no. mr. carr. have they been in there since that date to look over the premises? mrs. reid. his mother has been but i didn't see her. she didn't go any further than the first floor i understand, but i have never seen her other than these pictures. mr. dulles. is it usual for the employees of the depository to have friends visit them during office hours or would that be an unusual practice? mrs. reid. no; that would not be unusual. family or somebody wanted to drop by to see you they never have objected to that. mr. belin. i think the record should show we are offering in evidence this morning, mr. dulles, commission exhibit which is the diagram of the seventh floor which officer baker testified to. mr. dulles. you want that admitted now? mr. belin. we want that admitted now. mr. dulles. no objection. it will be admitted. (the diagram referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification and received in evidence.) mr. belin. i think those are all the questions we have of mrs. reid. we want to thank you very much for your cooperation in coming up here, mrs. reid. mrs. reid. thank you. mr. dulles. thank you very much, mrs. reid. i will tell the chief justice of your cooperation and helpfulness. we will reconvene at : . (whereupon, at : p.m., the president's commission recessed.) afternoon session testimony of luke mooney the president's commission reconvened at : p.m. senator cooper. the purpose of today's hearing is to hear the testimony of officer baker, whose testimony has been heard; mrs. reid, eugene boone, luke mooney, and m. n. mcdonald. officer baker and mrs. reid were in the vicinity of the texas school book depository building at the time of the assassination. deputy sheriffs boone and mooney assisted in the search of the sixth floor of the texas school book depository building shortly after the assassination, and officer mcdonald apprehended lee harvey oswald at the texas theatre. officer mooney, will you raise your right hand? you do solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. mooney. i do, sir. senator cooper. you are informed now of the nature and purpose of this inquiry. mr. mooney. yes, sir. senator cooper. do you appear here voluntarily? mr. mooney. yes, sir. senator cooper. do you have counsel with you? mr. mooney. no, sir. senator cooper. do you desire counsel? mr. mooney. no, sir. mr. ball. mr. mooney, what is your occupation? mr. mooney. i am a deputy sheriff, dallas county, tex. mr. ball. how long have you been in that job? mr. mooney. i have been on the force since february , . mr. ball. where were you born? mr. mooney. hopkins county, south of brashear. mr. ball. did you go to school there? mr. mooney. i went to school at middle grove, tex. mr. ball. how far did you go through school? mr. mooney. i finished high school there. mr. ball. and then where did you go? mr. mooney. well, i finished making a crop--i was a farm boy. my father passed away. i started school at a. & m. and had to withdraw after my father's death, and come back home to my mother, because i was the only child at home. and later on i took a course in aeronautical work, at luscomb school of aeronautics, in dallas, which is about--at that time was about miles from my home, and finished the course, and worked for luscomb in garland, tex., which is a suburb, or miles out of dallas. and i worked there approximately a year before i was drafted into the u.s. armed services. i was years old when i was drafted, one of the first. mr. ball. how long were you in the service? mr. mooney. from --i went in december, i believe it was, th, , and got out february , . i believe that is correct. mr. ball. and what did you do then, after that? mr. mooney. i returned home on discharge, discharged out of the services, honorable discharge. and i went to dallas again, come back to dallas. after a short couple of weeks vacation, so to speak, i took a business course at drawns business college in dallas. i finished the course there and was employed at johnson brothers chevrolet co. for years, approximately years, as a dispatcher in the service department, in charge of the shops. and for years i worked for an automobile financing company, associate investment co. and after years of service there, i was employed by the dallas county sheriff's office, because i didn't desire to be transferred out of the city of dallas. mr. ball. what kind of work did you do for the sheriff's office? mr. mooney. i worked in the writ and execution department, civil law, writ of sequestrations and executions. that is my principal job. however, we do everything that comes down. mr. ball. what do you call that writ? mr. mooney. writ of sequestration, or you might call it sequest. mr. ball. were you on duty on november , ? mr. mooney. yes, sir; i was. mr. ball. what was your job on that day? mr. mooney. i didn't have a special assignment. some of the officers did out at the market hall. i was waiting in front of the dallas criminal courts building, which is the sheriff's office, and we were waiting outside on the front steps there. i was down on the sidewalk, off the steps, on the street level, waiting for the motorcade to approach. mr. ball. were you standing there when the president went by? mr. mooney. yes, sir. i took my hat off. mr. ball. that is on main street? mr. mooney. right. mr. ball. and that is---- mr. mooney. main. mr. ball. that is where the cavalcade turned north? mr. mooney. made a right turn, yes, sir; on houston street. mr. ball. that building is about a block south on houston, isn't it--south of the texas school book depository? mr. mooney. yes, sir; it is a short block there. mr. ball. after the president's car went by, what did you do? mr. mooney. well, we were--we was more or less milling around. we just kept standing there, more or less talking to one another. i don't know how many seconds had elapsed--it wasn't too many. mr. ball. you say "we." who was with you? mr. mooney. there was another officer there, hiram ingram--he is an officer, also, a deputy sheriff. and i believe ralph walters was standing there with me, and i believe there was a lady standing there, by the name of martha johnson, who is one of the judges' wife, a jp judge. i believe officer boone was standing near us, also. and i don't recall how many more. there was a number of officers there. mr. ball. what happened, as you remember? mr. mooney. after that few seconds elapsed, we heard this shot ring out. at that time, i didn't realize it was a shot. the wind was blowing pretty high, and, of course, it echoed. i turned my head this way. mr. ball. you mean to the right? mr. mooney. to the right; yes, sir. we were facing more or less south. and i turned my head to the right. mr. ball. that would be looking towards houston street? mr. mooney. looking towards the old court. well, when i turned my head to the right; yes, sir. i would be looking west. and there was a short lapse between these shots. i can still hear them very distinctly--between the first and second shot. the second and third shot was pretty close together, but there was a short lapse there between the first and second shot. why, i don't know. but when that begin to take place--after the first shot we started moving out. and by the time i started running--all of us except officer ingram--he had a heart attack, and, of course, he wasn't qualified to do any running. mr. ball. which way? mr. mooney. due west, across houston street, went down across this lawn, across elm street there--i assume it is approximately the location the president was hit. of course the motorcade was gone. there wasn't anything there except a bunch of people, a lot of them laying on the ground, taking on, various things. i was running at full speed. mr. ball. when you ran across elm, where did you go? mr. mooney. across elm, up the embankment, which is a high terrace there, across--there is a kind of concrete building there, more or less of a little park. jumped over the fence and went into the railroad yards. and, of course, there was other officers over there. who they were, i don't recall at this time. but ralph walters and i were running together. and we jumped into the railroad yards and began to look around there. and, of course, we didn't see anything there. of course the other officers had checked into the car there, and didn't find anything, i don't believe, but a negro porter. of course there were quite a few spectators milling around behind us. we were trying to clear the area out and get all the civilians out that wasn't officers. mr. ball. why did you go over to the railroad yard? mr. mooney. well, that was--from the echo of the shots, we thought they came from that direction. mr. ball. that would be north and west from where you were standing? mr. mooney. yes, sir. to a certain extent--northwest. the way the echo sounded, the cracking of the shot. and we wasn't there many seconds--of course i never did look at my watch to see how many seconds it took us to run so many hundred yards there, and into the railroad yard. we were there only a few seconds until we had orders to cover the texas depository building. mr. ball. how did you get those orders? mr. mooney. they were referred to us by the sheriff, mr. bill decker. mr. ball. where was he when he gave you those orders? mr. mooney. they were relayed on to us. i assume mr. decker was up near the intersection of elm and houston. mr. ball. did you hear it over a loudspeaker? mr. mooney. no, sir. it come by word, by another officer. mr. ball. and you were with walters at that time? mr. mooney. right. and where officer walters went at that time, i don't know. we split up. i didn't see him any more until later on, which i will refer to later. mr. ball. where did you go? mr. mooney. mr. webster and mr. vickery were there with me at the time that we received these orders from another deputy. mr. ball. they are deputy sheriffs? mr. mooney. yes, sir; they were plainclothes officers like myself, work in the same department, and we run right over to the building then, which we were only , feet back--i assume it is that distance--i haven't measured it. it didn't take us but a few seconds to get there. when we hit the rear part, these big iron gates, they have cyclone fencing on them--this used to be an old grocery store warehouse--sachs & co., i believe is correct. and i says let's get these doors closed to block off this rear entrance. mr. ball. were the doors open? mr. mooney. they were wide open, the big gates. so i grabbed one, and we swung them to, and there was a citizen there, and i put him on orders to keep them shut, because i don't recall whether there was a lock on them or not. didn't want to lock them because you never know what might happen. so he stood guard, i assume, until a uniformed officer took over. we shut the back door--there was a back door on a little dock. and then we went in through the docks, through the rear entrance. officer vickery and webster said, "we will take the staircase there in the corner." i said, "i will go up the freight elevator." i noticed there was a big elevator there. so i jumped on it. and about that time two women come running and said, "we want to go to the second floor." i said, "all right, get on, we are going." mr. ball. which elevator did you get on? mr. mooney. it was the one nearest to the staircase, on the northwest corner of the building. mr. ball. there are two elevators there? mr. mooney. i found that out later. i didn't know it at that time. mr. ball. you took the west one, or the east one? mr. mooney. i would say it was the west elevator, the one nearest to the staircase. mr. ball. did it work with a push button? mr. mooney. it was a push button affair the best i can remember. i got hold of the controls and it worked. we started up and got to the second. i was going to let them off and go on up. and when we got there, the power undoubtedly cut off, because we had no more power on the elevator. so i looked around their office there, just a short second or two, and then i went up the staircase myself. and i met some other officers coming down, plainclothes, and i believe they were deputy sheriffs. they were coming down the staircase. but i kept going up. and how come i get off the sixth floor, i don't know yet. but, anyway, i stopped on six, and didn't even know what floor i was on. mr. ball. you were alone? mr. mooney. i was alone at that time. mr. ball. was there any reason for you to go to the sixth floor? mr. mooney. no, sir. that is what i say. i don't know why. i just stopped on that particular floor. i thought i was pretty close to the top. mr. ball. were there any other officers on the floor? mr. mooney. i didn't see any at that time. i assume there had been other officers up there. but i didn't see them. and i begin criss-crossing it, round and round, through boxes, looking at open windows--some of them were open over on the south side. and i believe they had started laying some flooring up there. i was checking the fire escapes. and criss-crossing back and forth. and then i decided--i saw there was another floor. and i said i would go up. so i went on up to the seventh floor. i approached officers webster and vickery. they were up there--in this little old stairway there that leads up into the attic. so we climbed up in there and looked around right quick. we didn't climb all the way into the attic, almost into it. we said this is too dark, we have got to have floodlights, because we can't see. and so somebody made a statement that they believed floodlights was on the way. and i later found out that probably officers boone and walters had gone after lights. i heard that. and so we looked around up there for a short time. and then i says i am going back down on six. at that time, some news reporter, or press, i don't know who he was--he was coming up with a camera. of course he wasn't taking any pictures. he was just looking, too, i assume. so i went back down ahead of officers vickery and webster. they come in behind me down to the sixth floor. i went straight across to the southeast corner of the building, and i saw all these high boxes. of course they were stacked all the way around over there. and i squeezed between two. and the minute i squeezed between these two stacks of boxes, i had to turn myself sideways to get in there--that is when i saw the expended shells and the boxes that were stacked up looked to be a rest for the weapon. and, also, there was a slight crease in the top box. whether the recoil made the crease or it was placed there before the shots were fired, i don't know. but, anyway, there was a very slight crease in the box, where the rifle could have lain--at the same angle that the shots were fired from. so, at that time, i didn't lay my hands on anything, because i wanted to save every evidence we could for fingerprints. so i leaned out the window, the same window from which the shots were fired, looked down, and i saw sheriff bill decker and captain will fritz standing right on the ground. well, so i hollered, or signaled--i hollered, i more or less hollered. i whistled a time or two before i got anybody to see me. and yet they was all looking that way, too--except the sheriff, they wasn't looking up. and i told him to get the crime lab officers en route, that i had the location spotted. so i stood guard to see that no one disturbed anything until captain will fritz approached with his group of officers, city officers. at that time, of course, when i hollered, of course officers vickery and webster, they came across and later on several other deputies--i believe officers mccurley, a. d. mccurley, i believe he came over. where he came from--they was all en route up there, i assume. mr. ball. i show you three pictures, officer; for your convenience i will give you the pictures. i have a picture here which has been marked as commission exhibit . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. ball. does that look anything like the southeast corner of the building as you saw it that afternoon? mr. mooney. yes, sir. mr. ball. about what time of day was this? mr. mooney. well, it was approaching o'clock. it could have been o'clock. mr. ball. did you look at your watch? mr. mooney. no, sir; i didn't. i should have, but i didn't look at my watch at the time to see what time it was. mr. ball. were you the only officer in that corner? mr. mooney. at that very moment i was. mr. ball. you say you squeezed behind certain boxes. can you point out for me what boxes you squeezed through? mr. mooney. if i remember correctly, i went in there from this angle right here--right through here. there could be a space. there is a space there i squeezed in between here, and that is when i got into the opening, because the minute i squeezed through there there lay the shells. mr. ball. all right. let's make a mark here. is this the space? mr. mooney. i believe that is going to be the space; yes, sir. mr. ball. if i make an arrow on that, would that indicate it? mr. mooney. yes, sir. there is another picture i have seen later that shows an opening in through here, but i didn't see that opening at that time. mr. ball. that is the opening through which you squeezed? and it is an arrow shown on exhibit . now, i will show you . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) is that the way the boxes looked? mr. mooney. that is the three boxes, but one of them was tilted off just a little, laying down on the edge, i believe, to my knowledge. mr. ball. now, does that look like---- mr. mooney. that is the three boxes that were there; yes, sir. mr. ball. are they arranged as they were when you saw them? mr. mooney. i am not positive. as i remember right, there was one box tilted off. mr. ball. what were the boxes--did they have a label on them, two of the boxes? mr. mooney. these do. i didn't notice the label at that time. mr. ball. that is a picture of the window? mr. mooney. yes. mr. ball. do i understand that you say that it appeared to you that the top box was tilted? mr. mooney. the end of it was laying this way. mr. ball. you say there was a crease in a box. where was that crease? mr. mooney. this crease was right in this area of this box. mr. ball. you mean over on the edge? mr. mooney. yes, sir; on this far ledge here, where i am laying my finger. mr. ball. did it go into the box? mr. mooney. very slight crease, very slight. mr. ball. can you take this and point out about where the crease was on ? now, was there anything you saw over in the corner? mr. mooney. no, sir; i didn't see anything over in the corner. i did see this one partially eaten piece of fried chicken laying over to the right. it looked like he was facing---- mr. ball. tell us where you found it? mr. mooney. it would be laying over on the top of these other boxes. this here is kind of blurred. mr. ball. we will get to that in a moment. now, i show you . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. ball. is that the empty shells you found? mr. mooney. yes, sir. mr. ball. are they shown there? mr. mooney. yes, sir. mr. ball. now, will you take this and encircle the shells? mr. mooney. all right. mr. ball. put a fairly good sized circle around each shell. that is the way they were when you saw them, is that right? mr. mooney. yes, sir. i assume that this possibly could have been the first shot. mr. ball. you cannot speculate about that? mr. mooney. you cannot speculate about that. mr. ball. those were empty shells? mr. mooney. yes, sir. mr. ball. they were turned over to captain fritz? mr. mooney. yes, sir; he was the first officer that picked them up, as far as i know, because i stood there and watched him go over and pick them up and look at them. as far as i could tell, i couldn't even tell what caliber they were, because i didn't get down that close to them. they were brass cartridges, brass shells. mr. ball. is this the position of the cartridges as shown on , as you saw them? mr. mooney. yes, sir. that is just about the way they were laying, to the best of my knowledge. i do know there was--one was further away, and these other two were relatively close together--on this particular area. but these cartridges--this one and this one looks like they are further apart than they actually was. mr. ball. which ones? mr. mooney. this one and this one. mr. ball. now, two cartridges were close together, is that right? mr. mooney. the one cartridge here, by the wall facing, is right. and this one and this one, they were further away from this one. mr. ball. well---- mr. mooney. but as to being positive of the exact distance---- mr. ball. you think that the cartridges are in the same position as when you saw them in this picture ? mr. mooney. as far as my knowledge, they are; pretty close to right. mr. ball. well, we will label these cartridges, the empty shells as "a", "b", and "c." now, i didn't quite understand--did you say it was your memory that "a" and "b" were not that close together? mr. mooney. just from my memory, it seems that this cartridge ought to have been over this way a little further. mr. ball. you mean the "b" cartridge should be closer to the "c?" mr. mooney. closer to the "c"; yes, sir. mr. ball. now, i have another picture here which i should like to have marked as . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. ball. does this appear to be--first of all, does that appear---- mr. mooney. there are two cartridges. where is the third one? mr. ball. the third one is not in this picture. this is taken from another angle. mr. mooney. this looks more like it than this angle here. mr. ball. you can see it is a different angle. mr. mooney. that is right. mr. ball. now, in this same picture-- , you see a box in the window. does that seem to be about the angle---- mr. mooney. yes; that box was tilted. mr. ball. that was tilted in that way? mr. mooney. yes, sir. mr. ball. now, when you made a crease on , the box shown in ---- mr. mooney. the box should have been actually tilted. mr. ball. in other words, it was your testimony, was it, that the box as shown in was not as you first saw it? mr. mooney. if i recall it right, this box was tilted. it had fallen off--looked like he might have knocked it off. mr. ball. well, you cannot speculate to that, but you can just tell us what you saw. what about the box in the window shown in ? mr. mooney. yes, sir. mr. ball. is that the box that had the crease on it? mr. mooney. yes, sir; i believe that is correct. mr. ball. now, the crease was--started from the edge, and came across? mr. mooney. yes, sir; just a slight crease. mr. ball. i have another picture. this is . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. ball. here is a picture taken, also, from another angle. does that show the cartridges? mr. mooney. yes, sir. mr. ball. now, compare that with . mr. mooney. yes, sir. mr. ball. is that about the way it looked? mr. mooney. yes, sir; that is right. it sure is. mr. ball. now, were the boxes, as you saw them, on the extreme left side of the window, the middle of the window, or the right side. mr. mooney. well, they were further over to the left of the window than over to the right. more or less as they are in there in that picture. mr. ball. in ? mr. mooney. yes, sir. mr. ball. now, the boxes are in about the right position with reference to---- mr. mooney. yes, sir; because i had room enough to stand right here, and lean out this window, without disturbing the boxes. mr. ball. you could stand on the right of the boxes? mr. mooney. yes, sir. mr. ball. and put your head out the window? mr. mooney. yes, sir. if i recall, i put my hand on the outside of this ledge. mr. ball. and put your head out the window? mr. mooney. yes, sir. senator cooper. was the window open when you got there? mr. mooney. yes, sir. mr. ball. if you stood to the left of the boxes, could you have looked out the window? mr. mooney. i don't believe i could, without disturbing them. possibly i might have, could have, but i just didn't try it. mr. ball. now, i show you exhibit . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , for identification.) mr. ball. this is another view of that window. mr. mooney. yes, sir. mr. ball. did you see it from that angle? mr. mooney. no, sir; i never did. mr. ball. you don't think you have ever seen it---- mr. mooney. from that angle. mr. ball. does that show any place where you saw the chicken bone? mr. mooney. if i recall correctly, the chicken bone could have been laying on this box or it might have been laying on this box right here. mr. ball. make a couple of marks there to indicate where possibly the chicken bone was lying. mr. mooney. yes, sir. mr. ball. make two "x's". you think there was a chicken bone on the top of either one of those two? mr. mooney. there was one of them partially eaten. and there was a little small paper poke. mr. ball. by poke, you mean a paper sack? mr. mooney. right. mr. ball. where was that? mr. mooney. saw the chicken bone was laying here. the poke was laying about a foot away from it. mr. ball. on the same carton? mr. mooney. yes, sir. in close relation to each other. but as to what was in the sack--it was kind of together, and i didn't open it. i didn't put my hands on it to open it. i only saw one piece of chicken. senator cooper. how far was the chicken, the piece of chicken you saw, and the paper bag from the boxes near the window, and particularly the box that had the crease in it? mr. mooney. i would say they might have been feet or something like that. he wouldn't have had to leave the location. he could just maybe take one step and lay it over there, if he was the one that put it there. senator cooper. you mean if someone had been standing near the box with the crease in it? mr. mooney. yes, sir. senator cooper. it would have been that approximate distance to the chicken leg and paper bag? mr. mooney. sir? senator cooper. and the paper bag you spoke of? mr. mooney. yes, sir; they were in close relation to each other, yes, sir. mr. ball. how big a bag was it? mr. mooney. well, as to the number--these bags are numbered, i understand. but it was--i don't know what the number you would call it, but it didn't stand more than that high. mr. ball. about inches? mr. mooney. about to inches, at the most. mr. ball. what color was the bag? mr. mooney. it was brown. just a regular paper bag. just as a grocery store uses for their produce and what-have-you. mr. ball. did you see any soda pop? mr. mooney. no, sir; i did not. mr. ball. did you see a paper bag at any other window? mr. mooney. no, sir; i didn't. mr. ball. any other chicken bones? mr. mooney. no, sir. mr. ball. did you see a dr. pepper bottle any place? mr. mooney. no, sir; except in the picture. mr. ball. you didn't see it? mr. mooney. no, sir. mr. ball. when you say you have seen the picture, i will show you the picture, and let me see if that is the one you mean you have seen. that is commission . this picture has been shown to you, hasn't it? mr. mooney. yes, sir. mr. ball. i showed you that. mr. mooney. yes, sir. mr. ball. and you did not see that two-wheel truck? mr. mooney. no, sir. mr. ball. you did not see the dr. pepper bottle? mr. mooney. no, sir. mr. ball. you didn't see a paper sack anywhere near a two-wheel truck or a dr. pepper bottle? mr. mooney. no, sir; in my running around up there, i didn't observe it. possibly it was there. i am sure it was. but i didn't check it. mr. ball. how long did you stay there? mr. mooney. sir? mr. ball. how long did you stay up on the sixth floor? after you found the location of the three cartridges? mr. mooney. well, i stayed up there not over or minutes longer--after captain will fritz and his officers came over there, captain fritz picked up the cartridges, began to examine them, of course i left that particular area. by that time there was a number of officers up there. the floor was covered with officers, and we were searching, trying to find the weapon at that time. mr. ball. were you there when it was found? mr. mooney. yes, sir. i was searching under these books and between them and up on the ledges and the joists, we was just looking everywhere. and i was about or steps at the most from officer boone when he hollered, "here is the gun." mr. ball. did you go over there? mr. mooney. i stepped over there. mr. ball. what did you see? mr. mooney. i had to look twice before i actually saw the gun laying in there. i had to get around to the right angle before i could see it. and there the gun lay, stuck between these cartons in an upright position. the scope was up. mr. ball. well, now, i will show you a picture, . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , for identification.) senator cooper. may i ask--did you change the position of the shells which you have identified? mr. mooney. no, sir; i didn't have my hands on them. senator cooper. or the bag, or chicken leg? mr. mooney. no, sir. senator cooper. until--before the chief came? mr. mooney. captain will fritz; yes, sir; he is the chief. senator cooper. was there any odor in the area when you first got there? mr. mooney. i didn't particularly notice any. now, there could have been a slight powder odor there. (at this point, mr. warren entered the hearing room.) senator cooper. did you smell any powder? mr. mooney. no, sir; not to my knowledge. of course it was musty odor, with all those cartons and books there. mr. ball. do you see the picture which is ? does it look like anything like that? mr. mooney. yes, sir; with the exception there was more cartons around it than that. in other words, the way it looked to me, when i walked over there--of course these may have been disturbed at a later date. mr. ball. it looks like there are more cartons? mr. mooney. no; there is less cartons around it right now. of course that is looking straight down. now, there are some more boxes here. mr. ball. i show you a picture which we will mark as . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. mooney. but that is in the position the gun was laying. mr. ball. that is about the position of the gun? mr. mooney. yes, sir. mr. ball. now, here is a picture of that marked stairway. can you orient yourself from that picture? mr. mooney. let's see. here is the staircase right in here. if i remember right, the gun was either in this crack or this one here. i don't remember which. mr. ball. does that show you about the number of cartons around? mr. mooney. yes, sir; that is the way it looked; sure did. because i had to stand up back here, before i could see over off in there. mr. ball. and when you did look down there between the cartons, was the gun---- mr. mooney. it was sitting in that position. the scope was up. mr. ball. as shown in ? mr. mooney. yes, sir. that is the way it was laying, in that position. senator cooper. it was lying on the floor? mr. mooney. yes, sir. senator cooper. with the scope on the upper side? mr. mooney. the scope in upright position. the stock was back to the east. in other words, the gun was pointed west. mr. ball. did a photographer come up and take pictures when you were there? mr. mooney. there was a number of photographers up there shooting pictures. who they were or who they represented--i assume it was the press. mr. ball. how long were they there? mr. mooney. they were there when all these officers and everybody was up there. mr. ball. i have no further questions. senator cooper. how far was it from the place where the gun was found, from where you first saw the rifle, to the window? mr. mooney. you mean how far was it from the gun to the window? senator cooper. yes; where you saw the shells. mr. mooney. well, it was clear across the entire sixth floor, thereabouts. in other words, if you take the location from where the shells were found, they were in the southeast corner. and this was in the far northwest corner. just right there at the staircase. and the distance across there, i just don't know how far it is, but it is quite a large warehouse floor. mr. ball. i have no further questions. i would like to offer the exhibits up to , inclusive. may this witness be excused? the chairman. any questions, senator cooper? senator cooper. as you examined these exhibits, you gave your best judgment, your recollection of the location of the boxes and the shells. mr. mooney. yes, sir. the way i remember, sir, is---- senator cooper. the chicken and the paper bag? mr. mooney. yes, sir. i do remember that the one box was tilted off, laying partially over on the legs. senator cooper. that was the box which you said you observed a crease in? mr. mooney. yes, sir. just very slight, very slight. senator cooper. is that the box which was the top box? mr. mooney. the way i remember, the two boxes and the third one was the one tilted off. it looked like it possibly could have been knocked off from a movement, because it wasn't naturally placed that way by hand for any purpose, because it wouldn't have had any purpose, to my knowledge. senator cooper. let the exhibits which have been offered be admitted in evidence. (the documents heretofore marked for identification as commission exhibits nos. through , were received in evidence.) mr. mooney. in other words, if you just run against it, you would have knocked it off. the chairman. thank you very much for coming, sir. you have been very helpful. mr. ball. our next witness is deputy sheriff boone. testimony of eugene boone the chairman. sit right down, mr. boone. senator cooper. the purpose of this hearing is to hear the testimony of m. l. baker, mrs. r. a. reid, eugene boone, luke mooney, and m. n. mcdonald. officer baker and mrs. reid were in the vicinity of the texas school book depository building at the time of the assassination. deputy sheriffs boone and mooney assisted in the search of the sixth floor of the texas school book depository building shortly after the assassination, and officer mcdonald apprehended lee harvey oswald at the texas theatre. will you be sworn? do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. boone. i do. senator cooper. you understand the purpose of this inquiry? mr. boone. yes, sir. senator cooper. you have come here voluntarily to testify? mr. boone. yes. senator cooper. do you have a counsel with you? mr. boone. no. senator cooper. do you desire one? mr. boone. no. mr. ball. what is your business? mr. boone. i am a deputy sheriff in or for the county of dallas. mr. ball. how long have you been a deputy sheriff? mr. boone. a year and a half. mr. ball. where were you born? mr. boone. dallas, tex. mr. ball. go to school there? mr. boone. yes, sir. mr. ball. how far through school did you go? mr. boone. high school. mr. ball. in dallas? mr. boone. yes, sir. mr. ball. what did you do after you got out of school? mr. boone. i was working with the dallas times herald newspaper there, in the advertising department. mr. ball. how long did you work there? mr. boone. well, i worked there part time when i was going to school, up until the time i quit, years. mr. ball. is that the time you went with the sheriff's office? mr. boone. yes, sir. mr. ball. how old are you? mr. boone. twenty-six. mr. ball. on the d of november, where were you working? mr. boone. i was working downtown. i was out viewing the parade. mr. ball. where did you view the parade? mr. boone. right in front of the sheriff's office. mr. ball. had you been assigned a place, a job that day? mr. boone. no. mr. ball. you were out in front of the sheriff's office on main street? mr. boone. that is correct. mr. ball. near houston? mr. boone. yes. mr. ball. and who were you with? mr. boone. officer mooney was out there, i believe, and several of the office personnel, women in the office, clerk-typist and what-have-you. ralph walters, buddy walthers, allen sweatt, l. c. smith. officer gramstaff. that is about all i can remember. mr. ball. what happened there? mr. boone. well, it was approximately o'clock when we heard the shots. the motorcade had already passed by us and turned back to the north on houston street. and we heard what we thought to be a shot. and there seemed to be a pause between the first shot and the second shot and third shots--a little longer pause. and we raced across the street there. mr. ball. you raced across what street? mr. boone. houston street. mr. ball. you turned to your right and went west? mr. boone. well, there is a big cement works out there. we went on west across houston street, and then cut across the grass out there behind the large cement works there. some of the bystanders over there seemed to think the shots came from up over the railroad in the freight yards, from over the triple underpass. so there was some city officer, i don't know who he was, motorcycle officer had laid his motorcycle down and was running up the embankment to get over a little retaining wall that separates the freight yards there. he went over the wall first, and i was right behind him, going into the freight yards. we searched out the freight yards. we were unable to find anything. mr. ball. a good many officers over there searching? mr. boone. yes; there were. most all of the officers--well, all of the officers in front of the sheriff's office there. there were others that i don't recall. there were other officers in the area. also, they all ran in that general direction, over around the depository and also down into the freight yards. mr. ball. any railroad employees around there? mr. boone. there was one colored boy way on back down in the freight yards. he had been working on one of the pullmans down there. mr. ball. and didn't you talk to somebody that was also in a tower? mr. boone. yes; i did. mr. ball. a man named bowers? mr. boone. i don't know what his name was. he was up in the tower and i hollered up there to see if he had seen anybody running out there in the freight yards, or heard any shots. and he said he didn't hear any shots, and he hadn't seen anybody racing around out there in the yard. mr. ball. that was a railroad tower? mr. boone. yes; it is situated between the tracks and the school book depository. almost directly west of the building. mr. ball. after that, what did you do? mr. boone. well, i finally went around and was talking to some of the spectators that were in the area there, located a boy by the name of betzer. he had taken what he thought was some photographs, or there were photographs--he thought he might have had a portion of the building. later on we were able to ascertain that the shots had come from the building, from that southeast corner over there. and he had some photographs, but they didn't extend past the second floor on the building. mr. ball. did you go up into the building then? mr. boone. i took him on over to the sheriff's office, and placed him in the sheriff's office, took his camera, to bring it back to the id bureau to be developed. placed him in the sheriff's office at that time to await somebody to take a statement from him. then some other officers, ralph walters and officer gramstaff, and i don't know whether--i don't remember officer mooney was with them or not at that time--they headed back to get some heavy power flashlights. they said they wanted to look around in the attic. and there were a bunch of pallets, that they moved the books around, and it was dark and they couldn't see. so we got the lights and went over to the building. at that time, we proceeded directly to the sixth floor. mr. ball. somebody tell you to go to the sixth floor? mr. boone. well, that is just where everybody was going. and they said five floors below that--i believe inspector sawyer with the city was out there, and he said the other floors were in the process of being searched or had been already searched. this was after officer mooney found the shells. mr. ball. did somebody tell you officer mooney had found some shells? mr. boone. not him in particular. they said the shells had been found on the sixth floor. at that time, i didn't know he had found them. mr. ball. what did you do after you got up to the sixth floor? mr. boone. well, i proceeded to the east end of the building, i guess, and started working our way across the building to the west wall, looking in, under, and around all the boxes and pallets, and what-have-you that were on the floor. looking for the weapon. and as i got to the west wall, there were a row of windows there, and a slight space between some boxes and the wall. i squeezed through them. when i did--i had my light in my hand. i was slinging it around on the floor, and i caught a glimpse of the rifle, stuffed down between two rows of boxes with another box or so pulled over the top of it. and i hollered that the rifle was here. mr. ball. what happened then? mr. boone. some of the other officers came over to look at it. i told them to stand back, not to get around close, they might want to take prints of some of the boxes, and not touch the rifle. and at that time captain fritz and an id man came over. i believe the id man's name was lieutenant day--i am not sure. they came over and the weapon was photographed as it lay. and at that time captain fritz picked it up by the strap, and it was removed from the place where it was. mr. ball. you saw them take the photograph? mr. boone. yes. mr. ball. were you alone at that time? mr. boone. there was an officer weitzman, i believe. he is a deputy constable. mr. ball. where was the rifle located on the floor, general location? mr. boone. well, it was almost--the stairwell is in the corner of the building, something like this, and there is a wall coming up here, making one side of the stairwell with the building acting as the other two sides. and from that, it was almost directly in front or about feet south, i guess, it would be, from that partition wall that made up the stairwell. mr. ball. the rifle was about feet from the---- mr. boone. yes, sir; behind a row of boxes. there was a row of boxes that came across there. then the rifle was behind that first row of boxes. mr. ball. i show you . is that the way it looked when you saw it? mr. boone. yes. mr. ball. is that the way it was when the picture was taken? mr. boone. yes; i believe so. mr. ball. this shows the rifle as you saw it, does it? mr. boone. that is right. then you could kneel down over here and see that it had a scope, a telescopic sight on it, by looking down underneath the boxes. mr. ball. now, i show you . does that look anything like the area where you found the rifle? mr. boone. yes; it did. mr. ball. will you put that down on the table so that everyone can see where it is, and show us where the rifle was with reference to the stairwell? mr. boone. this is that retaining wall here that i was talking about here. now, the rifle was right down in this area right here, almost directly. this is the west end of the building here, this being the north side, as i recall. mr. ball. that is the northwest corner? mr. boone. yes. and it is about feet from the edge--you cannot see the edge of it because it is behind this. mr. ball. the edge of what? mr. boone. the stairwell wall here. it is about feet from where this partition ends over to--back behind these cases of books here. mr. ball. can you mark with an arrow there the exact space between the boxes where you found the rifle as shown on this exhibit, which is ? mr. boone. what do you mean--the exact space? it was in this space right in here, like this. mr. ball. the arrow marks the space. mr. boone. i had come around these boxes here, next to the windows over here, and that is when i saw it, looking down across this way. mr. ball. you came along the west wall, near the windows shown in this picture ? mr. boone. that is correct. mr. ball. and when you looked in the direction that would be easterly, that is when you saw the rifle? mr. boone. northeasterly. mr. ball. here is another picture which we will mark as . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. ball. now, contains the arrow which shows the space between boxes where you found the rifle, is that right? mr. boone. yes. mr. ball. now, i show you an exhibit marked . does that show--what corner of the building does that show? or do you recognize it? mr. boone. it appears to be the same general location here. mr. ball. show---- mr. boone. this is the stairwell back here in the corner. if i am not mistaken, there is a freight elevator over here. mr. ball. that would be the right of the picture? mr. boone. yes. mr. ball. now, point to the boxes where you found the rifle. mr. boone. right down in this general direction. mr. ball. draw another arrow. i show you exhibit , a diagram of the sixth floor. now, by referring to these numbers, can you show us approximately where the rifle was found? mr. boone. roughly in the area here, designated by the arrow no. . mr. ball. the diagram on the sixth floor, as the commission knows, has been correlated with certain pictures. i now have commission exhibit marked, which has the figure on it, which corresponds to the position of the camera at the time the picture was taken. in other words, at about point on this map. and now i show you a photograph marked . is that about the way the rifle looked when you first saw it? mr. boone. yes; it is. there was some newsman up there right behind officer whitman and myself who took movie film of it, too. i don't know his name. mr. ball. what time was it? mr. boone. : p.m., in the afternoon. mr. ball. : ? mr. boone. yes. mr. ball. you looked at your watch? mr. boone. that is correct. mr. ball. and made a note of it? mr. boone. yes; i did. mr. ball. i show you a rifle which is commission exhibit . can you tell us whether or not that looks like the rifle you saw on the floor that day? mr. boone. it looks like the same rifle. i have no way of being positive. mr. ball. you never handled it? mr. boone. i did not touch the weapon at all. mr. ball. i would like to offer all the exhibits we have offered with this witness, which is to and , into evidence. senator cooper. let the exhibits be admitted in evidence. (the documents referred to marked commission exhibits nos. , , and were received in evidence.) mr. ball. i have no further questions. the chairman. i think you said that the reason you didn't touch it was because of the danger of fingerprints on there, is that right? mr. boone. that is correct. the city officers had personnel in charge up there. captain fritz, i believe, was in charge, senior officer on the floor. he was called to the location as soon as i found the rifle. he came over, and it was photographed then. senator cooper. did you notice whether the rifle that you discovered had a telescopic sight? mr. boone. yes, it did. senator cooper. did it have a sling? mr. boone. yes, it did. because captain fritz picked it up by the sling when he removed it from its resting place. senator cooper. looking at exhibit , which represents the floor plan of the sixth floor, you have marked on there the place where you found the rifle. is that near the stairwell? mr. boone. yes, sir; this is the stairwell right here in the northeast corner. senator cooper. also near the elevators? mr. boone. yes, sir. mr. belin. pardon me, senator cooper, i think you said northeast. mr. boone. northwest--i beg your pardon. senator cooper. do you remember whether officer mooney came up after you found the rifle? mr. boone. i don't recall. there were officers, both city and county officers, and constables officers up in the area on the floor. now, whether he was among the crowd there, i do not know. senator cooper. when you climbed over the retaining wall at the railroad yard, can you describe what the situation in the railroad yard was at that time? were there railroad cars in the area? mr. boone. there were four railroad cars down approximately yards from the retaining wall, right over the elm street tunnel, or portion of the triple underpass. then there were some people down to the south of the triple underpass which had viewed the parade, or were viewing the parade--i don't know. the city officer went back south, as i recall, and i went off to the north, northwest. senator cooper. thank you. the chairman. sheriff, thank you very much. mr. ball. there is one question. did you hear anybody refer to this rifle as a mauser that day? mr. boone. yes, i did. and at first, not knowing what it was, i thought it was . mauser. mr. ball. who referred to it as a mauser that day? mr. boone. i believe captain fritz. he had knelt down there to look at it, and before he removed it, not knowing what it was, he said that is what it looks like. this is when lieutenant day, i believe his name is, the id man was getting ready to photograph it. we were just discussing it back and forth. and he said it looks like a . mauser. mr. ball. thank you. the chairman. thank you very much, sheriff. you have been very helpful. mr. ball. call officer mcdonald. testimony of m. n. mcdonald senator cooper. will you stand up and be sworn? do you swear that the testimony you shall give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. mcdonald. i do. senator cooper. you understand that the purpose of this inquiry is to inquire into the circumstances surrounding the assassination of the late president kennedy? mr. mcdonald. yes, sir; i do. senator cooper. today's hearings are to hear testimony of various witnesses, including yourself, who were in the vicinity of the texas school book depository building at the time of the assassination, and because it is reported you apprehended lee harvey oswald in the texas theatre. mr. mcdonald. yes, sir. senator cooper. do you testify here voluntarily? mr. mcdonald. yes, sir. senator cooper. do you have counsel with you? mr. mcdonald. no, sir. senator cooper. do you desire counsel? mr. mcdonald. no, sir. mr. ball. mr. mcdonald, where do you live? mr. mcdonald. south port drive. mr. ball. in dallas? mr. mcdonald. yes, sir. mr. ball. where were you born? mr. mcdonald. camden, ark. mr. ball. did you go to school in arkansas? mr. mcdonald. yes, sir. mr. ball. how far through school did you go? mr. mcdonald. well, i finished through the th grade, took an equivalent for a high school diploma, and i attended year at arkansas state teachers college in conway. mr. ball. what year was that? mr. mcdonald. and . mr. ball. what did you do after that? mr. mcdonald. well, worked in a printing firm for awhile, after getting out of college a year. then i joined the air force. but in a break between high school and college, i entered the navy, in january . i served months in the navy, active duty. mr. ball. then you say in the 's you joined the air force? mr. mcdonald. yes, sir; december , . mr. ball. how long were you in the air force? mr. mcdonald. four years. mr. ball. what work did you do in the air force? mr. mcdonald. i was a supply sergeant. mr. ball. after that, what did you do? mr. mcdonald. i became a policeman in the dallas police department. mr. ball. that was in ? mr. mcdonald. march , . mr. ball. and you have been a police officer ever since? mr. mcdonald. yes, sir. mr. ball. were you on duty on march--november , ? mr. mcdonald. yes, sir. mr. ball. what was your job that day? mr. mcdonald. radio patrol. mr. ball. what were your hours of duty? mr. mcdonald. from : a.m. to : p.m. mr. ball. did you ride alone or have a partner? mr. mcdonald. no, sir; i had a partner. mr. ball. what is his name? mr. mcdonald. t. r. gregory. mr. ball. were you cruising about : that day? mr. mcdonald. yes, sir. mr. ball. in what area? mr. mcdonald. on the westmoreland avenue and falls drive intersection. mr. ball. was your area, an area close to downtown dallas or outside? mr. mcdonald. outside, approximately miles. mr. ball. did you get an order over the radio about that time to move your car? mr. mcdonald. yes, sir. mr. ball. what was the order? mr. mcdonald. report to the vicinity of elm and houston streets, code . mr. ball. and did you know officer tippit? mr. mcdonald. yes, sir. mr. ball. was he also a radio patrol officer? mr. mcdonald. yes, sir; he was. mr. ball. did he cruise alone or with a partner? mr. mcdonald. he was cruising alone. mr. ball. do you know what his area--the area assigned to him on that day? mr. mcdonald. the southern part of oak cliff, nearing the city limits. mr. ball. was that farther out from the center of town than you? mr. mcdonald. yes, sir; approximately to miles. mr. ball. did tippit usually cruise alone, or did he ever have a partner sometimes? mr. mcdonald. well, working in the daylight hours, which we were assigned that month, it is a custom to work alone--unless he had a trainee, such as i. i don't believe he was a trainer. mr. ball. in other words, you had a trainee with you, and that is the reason you were not alone? mr. mcdonald. yes, sir. mr. ball. did you hear an order over the radio for cars in the outlying district near the city limits, what they were to do? mr. mcdonald. they were to move in closer to the downtown area, but not directly to the area. mr. ball. you were ordered to move into the downtown area? mr. mcdonald. yes, sir. mr. ball. and the cars that were cruising farther out were ordered to move closer to the downtown area? mr. mcdonald. yes, sir. mr. ball. did you hear any other specific orders over the radio that day--that morning, or about : , o'clock? mr. mcdonald. no, sir. mr. ball. what did you do after you received those orders? mr. mcdonald. i applied my red lights and sirens, and went code , elm and houston streets. mr. ball. about what time did you get there? mr. mcdonald. approximately minutes later. mr. ball. what time would that be? mr. mcdonald. approximately : . mr. ball. where did you park your car? mr. mcdonald. on the right curb, elm street, before you enter the triple underpass. mr. ball. and how long did you stay there? mr. mcdonald. approximately minutes. mr. ball. what were you doing there? mr. mcdonald. well, after i left the car, my partner and i reported to a supervisor, and he directed us to patrol the crowd and move the crowd around elm street, and rope off the area. mr. ball. now, was your radio on? mr. mcdonald. yes, sir. there were several police units around the intersection, and all the radios were on. and after i had moved the crowd around, went back to the entrance of the texas school book depository, i heard this over the police radio, of--the first thing i heard was that president kennedy had expired at parkland hospital. and the next thing i heard was a voice over the radio that was not familiar to police procedure. he was saying that an officer had been shot, and that he was using car no. radio. of my own knowledge, i knew that car was driven by officer tippit, and that that car was assigned to his district. mr. ball. did he give you a location? mr. mcdonald. yes, sir; block of east th street. mr. ball. what did you do? mr. mcdonald. i told my partner we were not doing much good here, to go to oak cliff, and see if we could help out over there, try to apprehend the person that shot tippit. mr. ball. did you? mr. mcdonald. yes, sir. mr. ball. where did you go in oak cliff? mr. mcdonald. well, we got in the car and went underneath the triple underpass and got on the stemmons expressway, which leads into the r. l. thornton expressway. i believe we took the jefferson exit and drove up to the block of east jefferson. mr. ball. patton is about a block to the north of jefferson? mr. mcdonald. patton runs across jefferson. tenth and patton. mr. ball. patton runs north and south? mr. mcdonald. yes, sir. mr. ball. tenth street is a block north of jefferson? mr. mcdonald. yes, sir. mr. ball. how did you happen to go to the block on jefferson? mr. mcdonald. i was stopped by other officers there. they wanted to search a house. so i relieved my partner to go to help the supervisors search this house, in the block of east jefferson. then i went around to the alleys, and started cruising the alley in my squad car. mr. ball. and did you get a call over your radio to go to a certain place? mr. mcdonald. well, there was a report from the dispatcher that a suspect was seen running into the public library at marsalis and jefferson. mr. ball. you went down there? mr. mcdonald. yes, sir. i went directly to denver street, which is an alley at that point. it is still designated as denver street. i parked the squad car, took my shotgun, and went to the west basement entrance to the public library, and ordered the people in the basement, in the library outside. they came out with their hands up. the boy immediately said that he had just run into the library to tell the people that the president had been shot. he was a much younger person than what was broadcast on description on the radio. mr. ball. you had heard a broadcast? mr. mcdonald. yes. mr. ball. of a description, of someone to look for? mr. mcdonald. yes, sir. mr. ball. what did you hear? mr. mcdonald. white male, approximately years old, foot , weight about pounds, wearing light clothing. mr. ball. when did you hear that? about what time? mr. mcdonald. it came out on the radio as i was coming to oak cliff. there was another general description given on the way to the texas school book depository at elm and houston streets. but it was a vague description. mr. ball. the first description that you heard of a man to look for was on the way downtown to the texas school book depository? mr. mcdonald. yes, sir. mr. ball. what was that description? mr. mcdonald. white male, approximately , years old, and he had a white shirt on, weighed about pounds. mr. ball. and that was about : you got that? mr. mcdonald. yes, sir. mr. ball. now, this later description you got was what point in your travel to oak cliff? mr. mcdonald. this was approximately : , or : . mr. ball. that was after you had heard that tippit--that the officer had been shot? mr. mcdonald. yes, sir. mr. ball. and what was that description? mr. mcdonald. well, it was foot , white male, years old, wearing a white shirt. mr. ball. now, as you were cruising the alleys, you had gone into the library basement, and gone to cruising the alleys, did you hear something else over the radio that drew your attention to another part---- mr. mcdonald. just to report to the public library. mr. ball. after that. did you receive a report? mr. mcdonald. after i was satisfied that this teenager that had run into the library didn't fit the description, i went back to my squad car, put my shotgun back in the rack. just as i got into the squad car, it was reported that a suspect was seen running into the texas theatre, west jefferson. so i reported to that location code . this is approximately seven blocks from the library, seven blocks west. mr. ball. did you go down there with your partner? mr. mcdonald. no, sir; i had let my partner out on arrival; my first arrival in the block. mr. ball. he was on foot? mr. mcdonald. yes, sir; i didn't see him any more that day. mr. ball. you went down to the texas theatre? mr. mcdonald. yes, sir. mr. ball. and that is what address? mr. mcdonald. west jefferson. mr. ball. what did you do? mr. mcdonald. well, when i got to the front of the theater there was several police cars already at the scene, and i surmised that officers were already inside the theater. so i decided to go to the rear, in the alley, and seal off the rear. i parked my squad car. i noticed there were three or four other officers standing outside with shotguns guarding the rear exits. there were three other officers at the rear door. i joined them. we walked into the rear exit door over the alley. mr. ball. what were their names? mr. mcdonald. officer hawkins, t. a. hutson, and c. t. walker. and as we got inside the door, we were met by a man that was in civilian clothes, a suit, and he told us that the man that acted suspiciously as he ran into the theater was sitting downstairs in the orchestra seats, and not in the balcony. he was sitting at the rear of the theater alone. officer walker and i went to the exit curtains that is to the left of the movie screen. i looked into the audience. i saw the person that the shoe store salesman had pointed out to us. mr. ball. were the lights on or off? mr. mcdonald. the lights were up, and the movie was playing at this time. mr. ball. and could you see to the rear of the theater? mr. mcdonald. yes, sir. mr. ball. you could see the man. did the civilian point out to you the man in one of the rear seats? mr. mcdonald. he didn't point out personally. he was pointing out the suspect to another officer with him on the right of the stage, just right of the movie screen. mr. ball. what did you do then? mr. mcdonald. well, after seeing him, i noticed the other people in the theater--there was approximately or other people seated throughout the theater. there were two men sitting in the center, about rows from the front. i walked up the left center aisle into the row behind these two men, and officer c. t. walker was behind me. when i got to these two men, i told them to get on their feet. they got up. i searched them for a weapon. i looked over my shoulder and the suspect that had been pointed out to me. he remained seated without moving, just looking at me. mr. ball. why did you frisk these two men in the center of the theater? mr. mcdonald. i wanted to make sure that i didn't pass anything or miss anybody. i wanted to make sure i didn't overlook anybody or anything. mr. ball. and you still kept your eye on the suspect? mr. mcdonald. yes, sir. he was to my back. i was looking over my shoulder at him. mr. ball. was he sitting nearest the right or the left aisle as you came in? mr. mcdonald. the right center aisle. he was in the second seat. mr. ball. what did you do then? mr. mcdonald. after i was satisfied that these two men were not armed or had a weapon on them, i walked out of this row, up to the right center aisle toward the suspect. and as i walked up there, just at a normal gait, i didn't look directly at him, but i kept my eye on him and any other persons. and to my left was another man and i believe a woman was with him. but he was further back than the suspect. and just as i got to the row where the suspect was sitting, i stopped abruptly, and turned in and told him to get on his feet. he rose immediately, bringing up both hands. he got this hand about shoulder high, his left hand shoulder high, and he got his right hand about breast high. he said, "well, it is all over now." as he said this, i put my left hand on his waist and then his hand went to the waist. and this hand struck me between the eyes on the bridge of the nose. mr. ball. did he cock his fist? mr. mcdonald. yes, sir; knocking my cap off. mr. ball. which fist did he hit you with? mr. mcdonald. his left fist. mr. ball. what happened then? mr. mcdonald. well, whenever he knocked my hat off, any normal reaction was for me to go at him with this hand. mr. ball. right hand? mr. mcdonald. yes. i went at him with this hand, and i believe i struck him on the face, but i don't know where. and with my hand, that was on his hand over the pistol. mr. ball. did you feel the pistol? mr. mcdonald. yes, sir. mr. ball. which hand was--was his right hand or his left hand on the pistol? mr. mcdonald. his right hand was on the pistol. mr. ball. and which of your hands? mr. mcdonald. my left hand, at this point. mr. ball. and had he withdrawn the pistol---- mr. mcdonald. he was drawing it as i put my hand. mr. ball. from his waist? mr. mcdonald. yes, sir. mr. ball. what happened then? mr. mcdonald. well, whenever i hit him, we both fell into the seats. while we were struggling around there, with this hand on the gun---- mr. ball. your left hand? mr. mcdonald. yes, sir. somehow i managed to get this hand in the action also. mr. ball. your right hand? mr. mcdonald. yes, sir. now, as we fell into the seats, i called out, "i have got him," and officer t. a. hutson, he came to the row behind us and grabbed oswald around the neck. and then officer c. t. walker came into the row that we were in and grabbed his left arm. and officer ray hawkins came to the row in front of us and grabbed him from the front. by the time all three of these officers had got there, i had gotten my right hand on the butt of the pistol and jerked it free. mr. ball. had you felt any movement of the hammer? mr. mcdonald. yes, sir. when this hand--we went down into the seats. mr. ball. when your left hand went into the seats, what happened? mr. mcdonald. it felt like something had grazed across my hand. i felt movement there. and that was the only movement i felt. and i heard a snap. i didn't know what it was at the time. mr. ball. was the pistol out of his waist at that time? mr. mcdonald. yes, sir. mr. ball. do you know any way it was pointed? mr. mcdonald. well, i believe the muzzle was toward me, because the sensation came across this way. to make a movement like that, it would have to be the cylinder or the hammer. mr. ball. across your left palm? mr. mcdonald. yes, sir. and my hand was directly over the pistol in this manner. more or less the butt. but not on the butt. mr. ball. what happened when you jerked the pistol free? mr. mcdonald. when i jerked it free, i was down in the seats with him, with my head, some reason or other, i don't know why, and when i brought the pistol out, it grazed me across the cheek here, and i put it all the way out to the aisle, holding it by the butt. i gave the pistol to detective bob carroll at that point. mr. ball. grazed your left cheek? mr. mcdonald. yes, sir. mr. ball. scratched--noticeable scratch? mr. mcdonald. yes, sir; about a -inch scratch just above the eye to just above the lip. mr. ball. then what happened after that? mr. mcdonald. well, the officers that had come to my aid started handcuffing him and taking him out of the theater. mr. ball. what did he say--anything? mr. mcdonald. well, he was cursing a little bit and hollering police brutality, for one thing. mr. ball. what words did he use? mr. mcdonald. i couldn't recall the exact words. it was just mixed up words, people hollering and screaming when they get arrested. mr. ball. what did he say about police brutality? mr. mcdonald. one thing, "don't hit me any more." i remember that. mr. ball. did somebody hit him? mr. mcdonald. yes, sir; i guess they did. mr. ball. who hit him, do you know? mr. mcdonald. no, sir; i don't, other than myself. mr. ball. you know you hit him? mr. mcdonald. yes, sir. mr. ball. now, did you go with them outside? mr. mcdonald. no, sir. mr. ball. what did you do? mr. mcdonald. i was looking for my hat and flashlight. mr. ball. did you go downtown with them? mr. mcdonald. no, sir. mr. ball. later you went downtown? mr. mcdonald. yes, sir. mr. ball. and did you put a mark on the revolver? mr. mcdonald. yes, sir; i did. mr. ball. and did you look at the ammunition in the revolver, the six rounds in the cylinder? mr. mcdonald. yes, sir. mr. ball. did you notice anything unusual about any one of them? mr. mcdonald. i noticed on the primer of one of the shells it had an indentation on it, but not one that had been fired or anything--not that strong of an indentation. mr. ball. we have here exhibit for identification. do you know whether or not this is the revolver that you took from the man that you arrested? mr. mcdonald. yes, sir; this is it. i found the mark here. mr. ball. you found your mark? mr. mcdonald. yes, sir. senator cooper. what mark is it? mr. mcdonald. i marked the initial "m". mr. ball. where? mr. mcdonald. right here, on this steel plate. mr. ball. of the butt? mr. mcdonald. yes, sir. mr. belin. let the record show the witness is pointing to a point on the steel plate directly below the screw on the butt. mr. ball. how many cartridges were in the cylinder? mr. mcdonald. six, fully loaded. mr. ball. i will show you four that are marked as--we will give these four an exhibit number. do you know whether or not they were shells similar to that? mr. mcdonald. yes, sir; they were . caliber. now, i didn't mark all of these shells, myself. mr. ball. did you mark any of them? mr. mcdonald. i recall marking one. mr. ball. the four cartridges, the witness is examining now we will mark collectively as commission exhibit . (the articles referred to were marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. ball. and there are two cartridges that have been marked as commission exhibit that the witness is also examining. now, on one of the cartridges that have come from commission's exhibit , consisting of two cartridges, one of these you identify as a cartridge with a dent in it? mr. mcdonald. yes, sir. mr. ball. how can you tell this? mr. mcdonald. from the center of this--of the primer there--it is a small indentation, and some of the metal is blurred or not polished. mr. ball. and your mark is on one of these cartridges? mr. mcdonald. yes, sir. mr. ball. i will show you an exhibit . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. ball. is that a picture of the theatre? mr. mcdonald. yes, sir. mr. ball. and can you mark on there the seat in which the man was seated who was the suspect? mr. mcdonald. yes, sir. mr. ball. put an arrow down to that seat. did you see oswald later that evening? mr. mcdonald. no, sir. mr. ball. did you ever see him again? mr. mcdonald. no, sir. mr. ball. when you saw oswald, was he bloody any? mr. mcdonald. afterwards? mr. ball. well, when he was being taken from the theatre. was he bloody? mr. mcdonald. no, sir; i didn't see any blood. mr. ball. you didn't? mr. mcdonald. because whenever they took him, they took him directly out. mr. ball. and you never saw him again? mr. mcdonald. no, sir. mr. ball. what was he wearing at that time? mr. mcdonald. at the time he was wearing a dark brown shirt and a t-shirt and dark trousers. mr. ball. a dark brown shirt, a t-shirt, and dark trousers? mr. mcdonald. yes, sir. mr. ball. i will show you commission . does that look anything like the color of the shirt he was wearing? mr. mcdonald. yes, sir. mr. ball. i would like to at this time offer all exhibits up to in evidence. senator cooper. they will be admitted in evidence. (the documents heretofore marked for identification as commission exhibits nos. and were received in evidence.) mr. ball. did you notice where the pistol was concealed on this man's person? mr. mcdonald. yes, sir. it was under his right waist band, right side. mr. ball. was it under the shirt? mr. mcdonald. yes, sir; it was underneath the shirt. mr. ball. underneath the shirt? mr. mcdonald. yes, sir. i would like to correct that, and say it was underneath the brown shirt that he had on. not underneath the t-shirt. the chairman. it was not in a holster? mr. mcdonald. no, sir; no holster at all. mr. ball. were--was there an fbi agent there? mr. mcdonald. i don't know, sir. i was told he was there, but i don't know. mr. ball. the only people that you saw were---- mr. mcdonald. the ones i named there. mr. ball. dallas police department men? mr. mcdonald. yes, sir. mr. ball. i have no further questions. senator cooper. who was it that pointed out to you the suspect when you entered the theatre? mr. mcdonald. i learned his name later. senator cooper. did some person there point out to you, though, this man sitting in the row whom you later arrested? mr. mcdonald. yes, sir. he was a shoestore salesman. his name was brewer. he was the one that met us at the rear exit door and said that he saw this person run into the texas theatre. senator cooper. did you hear him say that? mr. mcdonald. yes, sir. senator cooper. and have you seen him since? mr. mcdonald. no, sir. senator cooper. but somebody has identified him to you? mr. mcdonald. yes, sir. mr. ball. we will examine him next week, sir. senator cooper. may i ask--if the suspect was pointed out to you, why was it you did not go directly to him, but you searched other persons? mr. mcdonald. well, usually on information of that sort, you have to weigh it a little bit to make sure you get the right person. he could have been mistaken. if a suspect was in that theatre, i wanted to make sure i got him, and not overlook him. senator cooper. you said, though, that before you went into the theatre, where the seats were located, that a man pointed out to you a person who he claimed was the suspect. mr. mcdonald. yes, sir; he said that that was the man that had acted suspiciously in running into the theatre. senator cooper. that was the man that was identified to you? mr. mcdonald. yes, sir. senator cooper. then, if he was the man identified to you, why did you stop and search these two men before you got to the man you later arrested? mr. mcdonald. well, i wanted to make sure he was right. senator cooper. was it your purpose to search everybody in there? mr. mcdonald. it was my intention--everybody i came to. senator cooper. were these the first two that you did search? mr. mcdonald. yes, sir; they were the closest ones to me. senator cooper. they were sitting in front of the man you later arrested? mr. mcdonald. yes, sir; they were sitting about rows in front of him. senator cooper. at the time you were searching them, you could see the other man that you later arrested? mr. mcdonald. yes, sir. senator cooper. what did he do? mr. mcdonald. just sat in his seat, with his hands in his lap, watching me. senator cooper. were there any other police officers in his vicinity? mr. mcdonald. there were police officers in the balcony, and police officers in the aisle, or in the lobby, you might call it--not in the theatre, except for the other three that i named. senator cooper. you are the only one in the theatre? mr. mcdonald. well, there was the other three officers that accompanied me through the rear exit door. officer walker went through the curtains with me, and officers hawkins and hutson was on the stage with the man that was identifying the suspect. senator cooper. then when you told the man you arrested to stand up did he immediately pull his pistol out? mr. mcdonald. no, sir; he stood up and started raising his hands, "well, it is all over now." but in my opinion, it was an act of giving up or surrendering. it was just natural that my hand went to his waist for a weapon, which was my intent anyway, whether he raised his hands or not. i didn't command him to raise his hands or anything. it was just a reaction of his. senator cooper. did he hit you with the pistol? mr. mcdonald. no, sir. senator cooper. did he point it towards you? mr. mcdonald. i don't know what position the gun was pointed out, whenever my hand was on it, because we were both grappling around there. but, as i say, the top of my hand was over on top of the pistol. senator cooper. to whom did you turn over the possession of the pistol? mr. mcdonald. detective bob carroll. he had come into the aisle. whenever i hollered, "i got him" immediately i was swarmed by officers. senator cooper. did you mark the pistol at that time before you turned it over? mr. mcdonald. no, sir; i marked it at the police station. senator cooper. but you recognized it then as the same pistol you had identified today? mr. mcdonald. yes, sir. senator cooper. that is all. the chairman. officer, you were in uniform that day? mr. mcdonald. yes, sir. the chairman. did the blow he gave you on your nose leave any mark? mr. mcdonald. well, for days i had some swelling. it didn't break the skin or anything. some of the force was taken by my top. it hit the bill of my cap and my nose. the chairman. and the scratch from the corner of your eye down to the corner of your mouth came from the pistol? mr. mcdonald. yes, sir. as i was taking the pistol away, clearing it from his body. yes, sir. the chairman. i think that is all. we are very glad you are able to be with us today. mr. ball. there is one thing. i have marked an exhibit, . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification and received in evidence.) mr. ball. as he said he had not seen oswald since, and i know this was taken--but i would like to ask him one question with reference to for identification, and we will later provide an identification, proper identification for it. does that look like the man that you arrested in the texas theatre that day? mr. mcdonald. yes, sir. mr. ball. and does it look like--well, of course, he had a shirt over that t-shirt. mr. mcdonald. yes, sir. mr. ball. i have no further questions. the chairman. thank you very much, officer. we are glad you were able to be with us. (whereupon, at : p.m., the president's commission recessed.) _thursday, march , _ testimony of mrs. helen markham, william w. scoggins, mrs. jeanette davis, and ted callaway the president's commission met at : a.m. on march , , at maryland avenue ne., washington, d.c. present were chief justice earl warren, chairman; representative gerald r. ford, and allen w. dulles, members. also present were joseph a. ball, assistant counsel; david w. belin, assistant counsel; norman redlich, assistant counsel; charles murray, observer; and waggoner carr, attorney general of texas. testimony of mrs. helen markham the chairman. the purpose of the session of the commission is for the purpose of taking testimony on the assassination of president kennedy, and it is our information that you have some evidence concerning it and we want to ask you some questions concerning it. you are willing to testify, are you? mrs. markham. do all i can. the chairman. all right. will you stand up and be sworn, please? do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before this commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mrs. markham. i do. the chairman. you may be seated. mr. ball will ask you the questions. mr. ball. mrs. markham, what is your address? mrs. markham. east ninth. mr. ball. in dallas, tex.? mrs. markham. dallas, tex. mr. ball. where were you born, mrs. markham? mrs. markham. where was i born? dallas. mr. ball. the commission would like to know something of your past life and experience, where you were born and your education so i will just ask you a few questions like that. take it easy, this is just---- mrs. markham. i am very shook up. mr. ball. this is a very informal little conference here. mrs. markham. well, do you want me to tell you about my life? mr. ball. yes. just tell us briefly where you were born and where you went to school and things of that kind. mrs. markham. i was born in dallas, dallas county. my father was a farmer. i was very small when my mother died, i was years old; and my brothers and i were separated which they were put in the state orphans home, and i went to live with my aunt. mr. dulles. are your brothers older or younger? mrs. markham. i have one older than i. and i went to live with my aunt and uncle in grand prairie. i went to grand prairie school. mr. ball. how far did you go through school? mrs. markham. eighth grade. mr. ball. then did you go to work? mrs. markham. no; i got married. i got married. mr. ball. how long were you married? mrs. markham. me---- mr. ball. i understand you are not married at the present time? mrs. markham. no. i am not married. i would have been married years this past july. mr. ball. were you a housewife for a while while you were married? mrs. markham. yes; i was. mr. ball. how many years? mrs. markham. let me see, about years. mr. ball. did you have any children? mrs. markham. yes, i did. mr. ball. how many children did you have? mrs. markham. well, i have five children. mr. ball. do they live with you now or what? mrs. markham. i have one son who stays with me. mr. ball. what has been your work most of your life since you were divorced, what kind of work have you done? mrs. markham. waitress work. mr. ball. you have done waitress work? mrs. markham. yes, sir. mr. ball. where do you work now? mrs. markham. eat well restaurant, main street, dallas, tex. mr. ball. were you working there on november , ? mrs. markham. i was. mr. ball. what hours did you work? mrs. markham. i was due at work from : in the evening until : at night. mr. ball. straight shift? mrs. markham. yes, sir. mr. ball. did you leave your home some time that morning to go to work? mrs. markham. that evening? mr. ball. morning. mrs. markham. that morning? mr. ball. you left your home to go to work at some time, didn't you, that day? mrs. markham. at one. mr. ball. one o'clock? mrs. markham. i believe it was a little after . mr. ball. where did you intend to catch the bus? mrs. markham. on patton and jefferson. mr. ball. patton and jefferson is about a block south of patton and th street, isn't it? mrs. markham. i think so. mr. ball. well, where is your home from patton and jefferson? mrs. markham. i had came--i come one block, i had come one block from my home. mr. ball. you were walking, were you? mrs. markham. i came from th to the corner of th street. mr. ball. and you were walking toward jefferson? mrs. markham. yes, sir. mr. ball. tenth street runs the same direction as jefferson, doesn't it? mrs. markham. yes, sir. mr. ball. it runs in a generally east and west direction? mrs. markham. yes, sir. mr. ball. and patton runs north and south? mrs. markham. yes, sir; up and down this way. mr. ball. so you were walking south toward jefferson? mrs. markham. yes, sir. mr. ball. you think it was a little after ? mrs. markham. i wouldn't be afraid to bet it wasn't or minutes after . mr. ball. you know what time you usually get your bus, don't you? mrs. markham. : . mr. ball. so it was before : ? mrs. markham. yes, it was. mr. ball. when you came to the corner of patton and th street--first of all, what side of the street were you walking on? mrs. markham. now you have got me mixed up on all my streets. i was on the opposite of where this man was. mr. ball. well, you were walking along the street---- mrs. markham. on the street. mr. ball. on patton, you were going toward jefferson? mrs. markham. yes, sir. mr. ball. and you were on the right- or left-hand side of the street as you were walking south? mrs. markham. that would be on the left. mr. ball. your right. mrs. markham. yes, it would be right. mr. ball. right-hand side, wouldn't it? when you came to the corner did you have to stop before you crossed th street? mrs. markham. yes, i did. mr. ball. why? mrs. markham. on account the traffic was coming. mr. ball. and you stopped there on the corner? mrs. markham. yes, sir. mr. ball. that would be the northwest corner, wouldn't it? mrs. markham. northwest corner. mr. ball. is that right? mrs. markham. i believe it is. i believe it is the northwest corner. mr. ball. did you see any man walking at that time? mrs. markham. yes; i seen this man on the opposite side, across the street from me. he was almost across patton street. mr. ball. almost across patton? mrs. markham. yes, sir. mr. ball. walking in what direction? mrs. markham. i guess this would be south. mr. ball. along th, east? was it along th? mrs. markham. yes, sir. mr. ball. walking away from you, wasn't he? mrs. markham. he was walking up th, away from me. mr. ball. to your left? mrs. markham. well, he was on the opposite side of the street to me like that. mr. ball. had he reached the curb yet? mrs. markham. almost ready to get up on the curb. mr. ball. what did you notice then? mrs. markham. well, i noticed a police car coming. mr. ball. where was the police car when you first saw it? mrs. markham. he was driving real slow, almost up to this man, well, say this man, and he kept, this man kept walking, you know, and the police car going real slow now, real slow, and they just kept coming into the curb, and finally they got way up there a little ways up, well, it stopped. mr. ball. the police car stopped? mrs. markham. yes, sir. mr. ball. what about the man? was he still walking? mrs. markham. the man stopped. mr. ball. then what did you see the man do? mrs. markham. i saw the man come over to the car very slow, leaned and put his arms just like this, he leaned over in this window and looked in this window. mr. ball. he put his arms on the window ledge? mrs. markham. the window was down. mr. ball. it was? mrs. markham. yes, sir. mr. ball. put his arms on the window ledge? mrs. markham. on the ledge of the window. mr. ball. and the policeman was sitting where? mrs. markham. on the driver's side. mr. ball. he was sitting behind the wheel? mrs. markham. yes, sir. mr. ball. was he alone in the car? mrs. markham. yes. mr. ball. then what happened? mrs. markham. well, i didn't think nothing about it; you know, the police are nice and friendly, and i thought friendly conversation. well, i looked, and there were cars coming, so i had to wait. well, in a few minutes this man made---- mr. ball. what did you see the policeman do? mrs. markham. see the policeman? well, this man, like i told you, put his arms up, leaned over, he--just a minute, and he drew back and he stepped back about two steps. mr. tippit---- mr. ball. the policeman? mrs. markham. the policeman calmly opened the car door, very slowly, wasn't angry or nothing, he calmly crawled out of this car, and i still just thought a friendly conversation, maybe disturbance in the house, i did not know; well, just as the policeman got in---- mr. ball. which way did he walk? mrs. markham. towards the front of the car. and just as he had gotten even with the wheel on the driver's side---- mr. ball. you mean the left front wheel? mrs. markham. yes; this man shot the policeman. mr. ball. you heard the shots, did you? mrs. markham. yes, sir. mr. ball. how many shots did you hear? mrs. markham. three. mr. ball. what did you see the policeman do? mrs. markham. he fell to the ground, and his cap went a little ways out on the street. mr. ball. what did the man do? mrs. markham. the man, he just walked calmly, fooling with his gun. mr. ball. toward what direction did he walk? mrs. markham. come back towards me, turned around, and went back. mr. ball. toward patton? mrs. markham. yes, sir; towards patton. he didn't run. it just didn't scare him to death. he didn't run. when he saw me he looked at me, stared at me. i put my hands over my face like this, closed my eyes. i gradually opened my fingers like this, and i opened my eyes, and when i did he started off in kind of a little trot. mr. ball. which way? mrs. markham. sir? mr. ball. which way? mrs. markham. towards jefferson, right across that way. mr. dulles. did he have the pistol in his hand at this time? mrs. markham. he had the gun when i saw him. mr. ball. did you yell at him? mrs. markham. when i pulled my fingers down where i could see, i got my hand down, he began to trot off, and then i ran to the policeman. mr. ball. before you put your hands over your eyes, before you put your hand over your eyes, did you see the man walk towards the corner? mrs. markham. yes. mr. ball. what did he do? mrs. markham. well, he stared at me. mr. ball. what did you do? mrs. markham. i didn't do anything. i couldn't. mr. ball. didn't you say something? mrs. markham. no, i couldn't. mr. ball. or yell or scream? mrs. markham. i could not. i could not say nothing. mr. ball. you looked at him? mrs. markham. yes. mr. ball. you looked at him? mrs. markham. yes, sir. he looked wild. i mean, well, he did to me. mr. ball. and you say you saw him fooling with his gun? mrs. markham. he had it in his hands. mr. ball. did you see what he was doing with it? mrs. markham. he was just fooling with it. i didn't know what he was doing. i was afraid he was fixing to kill me. mr. ball. how far away from the police car do you think you were on the corner when you saw the shooting? mrs. markham. well, i wasn't too far. mr. ball. can you estimate it in feet? don't guess. mrs. markham. i would just be afraid to say how many feet because i am a bad judgment on that. mr. ball. when you looked at the man, though, when he came toward the corner, you were standing on one corner, were you? mrs. markham. yes, sir. mr. ball. where was he standing with reference to the other corner? mrs. markham. after he had shot---- mr. ball. when he looked at you. mrs. markham. after he had shot the policeman? mr. ball. yes. mrs. markham. he was standing almost even to that curb, not very far from the curb, from the sidewalk. mr. ball. across the street from you? mrs. markham. yes, sir. mr. ball. did he look at you? mrs. markham. yes, sir. mr. ball. and did you look at him? mrs. markham. i sure did. mr. ball. that was before you put your hands over your eyes? mrs. markham. yes, sir; and he kept fooling with his gun, and i slapped my hands up to my face like this. mr. ball. and then you ran to the policeman? mrs. markham. after he ran off. mr. ball. in what hand did he have his gun, do you know, when he fired the shots? mrs. markham. sir, i believe it was his right. i am not positive because i was scared. mr. ball. when he came down the street towards you, in what hand did he have his gun? mrs. markham. he had it in both of them. mr. ball. he had it in both of them? mrs. markham. yes, sir. mr. ball. when he went towards jefferson you say he went at sort of a trot? mrs. markham. yes, sir. mr. ball. did he cross patton? mrs. markham. yes, sir. mr. dulles. were there many other, or other people in the block at that time, or were you there with officer tippit almost alone? mrs. markham. i was out there, i didn't see anybody. i was there alone by myself. mr. dulles. i see. you didn't see anybody else in the immediate neighborhood? mrs. markham. no; not until everything was over--i never seen anybody until i was at mr. tippit's side. i tried to save his life, which was i didn't know at that time i couldn't do something for him. mr. dulles. mr. tippit, officer tippit, didn't say anything to you? mrs. markham. he tried to. mr. dulles. he tried to? mrs. markham. yes, sir. mr. dulles. but he didn't succeed? mrs. markham. no, i couldn't understand. i was screaming and hollering and i was trying to help him all i could, and i would have. i was with him until they put him in the ambulance. mr. ball. did you make an estimate of how far you were from this man with the gun when he came--after the shooting, and when he came down to the corner, did you make an estimate of that? mrs. markham. no. to anyone---- mr. ball. we measured it the other day. we were out there, weren't we? mrs. markham. now i couldn't tell you how many feet or nothing because i have never had no occasions to measure that. mr. dulles. was it further than this table, the length of this table? mrs. markham. it was across the street. mr. dulles. across the street. it was two or three times the length of this table? mrs. markham. across from the street. that was too close. mr. ball. we have a map coming from the fbi. we thought it would be here this morning. mrs. markham, you were taken to the police department, weren't you? mrs. markham. yes, sir. mr. ball. immediately. mrs. markham. yes, sir. mr. ball. later that day they had a showup you went to? mrs. markham. a lineup? mr. ball. a lineup. mrs. markham. yes. mr. ball. how many men were in the lineup? mrs. markham. i believe there were, now i am not positive, i believe there were three besides this man. mr. ball. that would be four people altogether? mrs. markham. i believe that is correct. mr. ball. were they of anywhere near similar build or size or coloring? mrs. markham. yes, they were all about the same height. mr. ball. who were you in the lineup room with? mrs. markham. who was i in the room where they had this man? mr. ball. yes. mrs. markham. policemen. mr. ball. more than one? mrs. markham. the room was full. mr. ball. it was. in this lineup room, the room was full of policemen. weren't there just one or two men with you? mrs. markham. one or two with me, but i don't know who they were. mr. ball. but there were other officers? mrs. markham. there were all policemen sitting in the back of me, and aside of me. mr. ball. in this room? mrs. markham. yes, sir. they were doing something. mr. ball. before you went into this room were you shown a picture of anyone? mrs. markham. i was not. mr. ball. did you see any television? mrs. markham. i did not. mr. ball. did a police officer say anything to you before you went in there, to tell you---- mrs. markham. no, sir. mr. ball. that he thought "we had the right man," or something of that sort? anything like that? mrs. markham. no, sir. mr. ball. no statement like that? mrs. markham. no, sir. mr. ball. did anybody tell you that the man you were looking for would be in a certain position in the lineup, or anything like that? mrs. markham. no, sir. mr. ball. now when you went into the room you looked these people over, these four men? mrs. markham. yes, sir. mr. ball. did you recognize anyone in the lineup? mrs. markham. no, sir. mr. ball. you did not? did you see anybody--i have asked you that question before--did you recognize anybody from their face? mrs. markham. from their face, no. mr. ball. did you identify anybody in these four people? mrs. markham. i didn't know nobody. mr. ball. i know you didn't know anybody, but did anybody in that lineup look like anybody you had seen before? mrs. markham. no. i had never seen none of them, none of these men. mr. ball. no one of the four? mrs. markham. no one of them. mr. ball. no one of all four? mrs. markham. no, sir. mr. ball. was there a number two man in there? mrs. markham. number two is the one i picked. mr. ball. well, i thought you just told me that you hadn't---- mrs. markham. i thought you wanted me to describe their clothing. mr. ball. no. i wanted to know if that day when you were in there if you saw anyone in there---- mrs. markham. number two. mr. ball. what did you say when you saw number two? mrs. markham. well, let me tell you. i said the second man, and they kept asking me which one, which one. i said, number two. when i said number two, i just got weak. mr. ball. what about number two, what did you mean when you said number two? mrs. markham. number two was the man i saw shoot the policeman. mr. ball. you recognized him from his appearance? mrs. markham. i asked--i looked at him. when i saw this man i wasn't sure, but i had cold chills just run all over me. mr. ball. when you saw him? mrs. markham. when i saw the man. but i wasn't sure, so, you see, i told them i wanted to be sure, and looked at his face is what i was looking at, mostly is what i looked at, on account of his eyes, the way he looked at me. so i asked them if they would turn him sideways. they did, and then they turned him back around, and i said the second, and they said, which one, and i said number two. so when i said that, well, i just kind of fell over. everybody in there, you know, was beginning to talk, and i don't know, just---- mr. ball. did you recognize him from his clothing? mrs. markham. he had on a light short jacket, dark trousers. i looked at his clothing, but i looked at his face, too. mr. ball. did he have the same clothing on that the man had that you saw shoot the officer? mrs. markham. he had these dark trousers on. mr. ball. did he have a jacket or a shirt? the man that you saw shoot officer tippit and run away, did you notice if he had a jacket on? mrs. markham. he had a jacket on when he done it. mr. ball. what kind of a jacket, what general color of jacket? mrs. markham. it was a short jacket open in the front, kind of a grayish tan. mr. ball. did you tell the police that? mrs. markham. yes, i did. mr. ball. did any man in the lineup have a jacket on? mrs. markham. i can't remember that. mr. ball. did this number two man that you mentioned to the police have any jacket on when he was in the lineup? mrs. markham. no, sir. mr. ball. what did he have on? mrs. markham. he had on a light shirt and dark trousers. (representative ford is now in the commission hearing room.) mr. ball. did you recognize the man from his clothing or from his face? mrs. markham. mostly from his face. mr. ball. were you sure it was the same man you had seen before? mrs. markham. i am sure. mr. ball. now, what time of day was it that you saw this man in the lineup? mrs. markham. i would say it was four, a little after. mr. ball. that was four in the afternoon? mrs. markham. i was so upset i couldn't even tell you the time. in fact, i wasn't interested in the time. mr. ball. yes. mr. dulles. could i ask just one question? mr. ball. yes. mr. dulles. you referred to his eyes; they were rather striking. can you give any impression of how his eyes looked to you? i realize that is a very vague question. mrs. markham. yes. he looked wild. they were glassy looking, because i could see---- mr. dulles. he had no glasses on? mrs. markham. no. when we looked at each other, he just stared, just like that. i just don't know. i just seen him--i would know the man anywhere, i know i would. mr. dulles. thank you. mr. ball. i have here an exhibit, commission exhibit , a jacket. did you ever see this before? mrs. markham. no; i did not. mr. ball. does it look like, anything like, the jacket the man had on? mrs. markham. it is short, open down the front. but that jacket it is a darker jacket than that, i know it was. mr. ball. you don't think it was as light a jacket as that? mrs. markham. no, it was darker than that, i know it was. at that moment i was so excited---- mr. ball. i show you a shirt here, which is exhibit . did you ever see a shirt the color of this? mrs. markham. the shirt that this man had, it was a lighter looking shirt than that. mr. ball. the man who shot tippit? mrs. markham. yes, sir; i think it was lighter. mr. ball. all right. i have some pictures here that i would like to show you. i have exhibits and , which have been marked as exhibits. here is one picture, . do you recognize that as the sign down? mrs. markham. this is the corner of patton and th. mr. ball. patton and th. mrs. markham. this is on the corner of patton and th. mr. ball. yes. was the man anywhere near that corner when you saw him? mrs. markham. yes, he was. mr. ball. after the shooting? mrs. markham. yes, sir; he was. mr. ball. all right. now, take this pen and put an x as to the point when he looked at you and you looked at him. mrs. markham. he was right along here. mr. ball. put an x. mrs. markham. i don't know. i am too nervous. mr. ball. at the time the man was standing at x in this picture, at this location, which is shown in , where were you? mrs. markham. i was on the opposite corner, across over here, like this. mr. ball. were you as close to the curb as--were you close to the curb at that time? mrs. markham. yes, i was. mr. dulles. where was the car, where this car is? mr. ball. no, i have another picture i will show her. i have here exhibit ; do you recognize the white house in the picture? mrs. markham. yes. mr. ball. and the driveway next to it? mrs. markham. yes, sir. mr. ball. does that show the location of the police car at the time it stopped? mrs. markham. yes, sir. that is the big old white house, . mrs. ball. that is right. mrs. markham. th street, and this driveway and this house. mr. dulles. will you give us an idea, mr. ball, as to where she said she was on this picture? was she over here? mr. ball. we have a picture. there is a booklet here that has been prepared by a succession of witnesses. we have a general diagram here which i will show the witness at this time. mrs. markham, there is a diagram here which shows th street going in an easterly and westerly direction, patton running north and south. (marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mrs. markham. yes, sir. mr. ball. do you understand that? mrs. markham. this would be the corner i would be at. mr. ball. no, this would be patton. this is north and south. jefferson is down here. can you locate yourself? mrs. markham. this is th? mr. ball. that is th. mrs. markham. and this patton? mr. ball. that is right. mrs. markham. i was standing on the corner of th and patton. mr. ball. that is right. but which corner? mrs. markham. northeast corner is where i was standing. mr. ball. northeast or northwest? this would be northeast and this would be northwest. here is where the squad car would be. right there. here is . mrs. markham. it would be this corner then. mr. ball. well, that is northeast and that is northwest. were you kitty-cornered? mrs. markham. i was kitty-cornered from it like this. mr. ball. like that? mrs. markham. yes, sir. mr. ball. well, this is northwest, this is northeast, southeast, southwest, and here is the car. we are going down the street now. mrs. markham. it would be this--that would be on the opposite side. mr. ball. that is right. look at a number on that and tell me where you were standing. mrs. markham. i was standing right at the curb. mr. ball. do you see a number? mrs. markham. number . mr. ball. number on this diagram would be indicating the place where you would be standing, is that right? mrs. markham. i was standing on the opposite corner from that. mr. ball. i know, but i have got to get you to tell me where you were standing. picture yourself going down patton towards jefferson. mrs. markham. going down patton? mr. ball. you were coming from this direction. your home was up here. mrs. markham. i was coming down patton. it would be this corner. mr. ball. that corner, all right. take this pen and show your course down the sidewalk. mrs. markham. just draw it right on it? mr. ball. down to where you stood. mrs. markham. right on the edge. mr. ball. is there a number there that shows where you were? mrs. markham. yes. mr. ball. near , is that right? mrs. markham. yes. mr. dulles. that is the northwest corner? mr. ball. northwest corner; that is the northwest corner. here is a picture. do you recognize that? mrs. markham. yes, sir. mr. ball. that is picture number in the booklet. does that show where you were? (marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mrs. markham. yes, sir. mr. ball. where was the man shot? mrs. markham. right here. mr. ball. put a mark where you first saw him. mark that a. then he went which direction down the street? mrs. markham. he went this way. mr. ball. in other words, he went in a direction--draw a line and then put an arrow showing what direction. mrs. markham. from here---- mr. ball. yes. mrs. markham. right on down the side. mr. ball. make a mark and put an arrow. that was the direction he was walking? mrs. markham. yes, sir. mr. ball. the police car had not come into sight yet? mrs. markham. that is right. mr. ball. put an x where the police car was when you first saw it, put an x there and we will mark that b. now, after the shooting, where was the man when you looked at him? mrs. markham. he turned and came back this way. mr. ball. where did he stand and look at you? mrs. markham. right here. mr. ball. put a mark there. we will mark that c. where were you standing when he was looking at you? mrs. markham. the same position. mr. ball. the same position as the girl shown on this picture? mrs. markham. yes, sir. mr. ball. is that your picture? mrs. markham. yes, sir. mr. ball. that is you there in that picture? mrs. markham. yes, sir. mr. ball. did you stand there for the photographer to show him where you were standing? mrs. markham. yes, sir. mr. ball. i would like to offer into evidence the diagram in this book, together with the picture which illustrates the diagram. the chairman. under what numbers? mr. ball. as , which is the diagram, and , which is the picture. the chairman. they may be admitted. (the documents identified as commission exhibits nos. - were received in evidence.) mr. ball. you went out there in picture number . now, mr. dulles, i think this will explain it. mr. dulles. yes, mr. ball. mr. ball. i have some other pictures here that might illustrate. do you recognize this? mrs. markham. yes. mr. ball. you were here the time the picture was taken? mrs. markham. yes, sir. mr. ball. you told the parties where to put the squad car? mrs. markham. yes, sir. mr. ball. does this show the place where the police car was when this happened? mrs. markham. yes, sir. mr. ball. the place at the arrow? mrs. markham. yes, sir. mr. ball. it shows a corner. mrs. markham. yes, sir. mr. ball. on the picture make a mark where the man was when he came back and looked at you. mrs. markham. yes, sir. he was a little behind this. mr. ball. just make an x there in general. mrs. markham. that is supposed to be on the sidewalk. mr. ball. i would like to have this marked as commission exhibit . the x marks the position of the man who did the shooting on the corner after the shooting, and the arrow points to the squad car. here is another picture marked in this book which i will mark as commission exhibit . is that you in the picture? mrs. markham. yes, sir. mr. ball. you went out there the day the picture was taken? mrs. markham. yes, sir. mr. ball. is that where you were standing? mrs. markham. yes, sir. mr. ball. is that where you were when you saw the shooting? mrs. markham. yes, sir. mr. ball. did you move from that place from the time of the shooting until the time you saw the man on the corner? mrs. markham. no, sir. mr. dulles. i wonder, mrs. markham, if you would repeat for me, i would like to hear it, and congressman ford would like to hear it, the scene that you saw where the man now known to be oswald went up and put his arms on the door of the police car, as i understand it. mrs. markham. yes. mr. dulles. would you tell that once again. i would like to hear it again. mrs. markham. he calmly walked to the car. he wasn't in no hurry. mr. dulles. may i ask, was he called, were there any words that you heard? mrs. markham. no, i did not. i seen the police car stop. mr. dulles. you didn't hear the policeman say, "come here," or anything of that kind? mrs. markham. no. mr. dulles. he might have done it, but you didn't hear it? mrs. markham. that is right. and the man went over to the car, put his hands on the window---- mr. dulles. the window was open? mrs. markham. leaned over like this. mr. dulles. let me see. was that on the right-hand side of the car, or where the driver was? mrs. markham. it was on the opposite side of the car. mr. dulles. opposite side of the car from the driver, yes. mrs. markham. yes. the window was down, and i know it was down, i know, and he put his arms and leaned over, i don't know what they were talking about, i didn't hear it. then he stepped back in a few minutes, stepped back two steps. mr. dulles. he stepped back two steps from the car? mrs. markham. just stepped back twice. mr. tippit, of course, the policeman--i didn't know it was mr. tippit---- mr. dulles. yes. mrs. markham. he calmly opened the door. he calmly crawled out like he wasn't angry. mr. dulles. did he have a weapon in his hands? mrs. markham. i didn't see one. mr. dulles. and what happened? mrs. markham. he was just calmly walking to the front of the car and when he got even with the wheel on the driver's side, front, you know, that man shot him. mr. dulles. did you see him draw his revolver? mrs. markham. he shot him like this. mr. dulles. i see. mr. ball. like this, you mean from the hip or from the waist? mrs. markham. yes. in the wink of your eye, before you could ever--just like that. it didn't seem like it bothered him, disturbed him. mr. dulles. the policeman hadn't made, as far as you could see, any menacing gestures toward him? he wasn't trying to grab him or anything of that kind? mrs. markham. no. he was very calm, very. i would say like in slow motion, you know, like he was getting out to talk with the man, or go in the house for disturbance or something, i don't know. mr. ball. he shot across the hood of the car? mrs. markham. across the hood. mr. ball. the policeman was in the street, walking in the street around to the front of the car? mrs. markham. yes. mr. dulles. the policeman then got out on the opposite side of where oswald was? mrs. markham. yes, i guess he was coming around. representative ford. it appeared as though he was walking around the front of the car? mrs. markham. he had started around, and then he was going over to the man. mr. ball. he had only reached the left front wheel though when he was shot? mrs. markham. yes, sir. mr. ball. and he fell into the street? mrs. markham. he fell into the street, his hat fell off his head. he didn't fall, just clumped down like that. representative ford. did the man with the gun move at all as the officer started to go around the car? mrs. markham. no. he didn't move. i mean, walked back or anything like that, no, sir. representative ford. he didn't appear to run? mrs. markham. no. i didn't know anything was going to happen. if i had i would have kept walking, not walking, running. mr. dulles. he had walked slowly around the car to meet the other man? mrs. markham. the policeman was. mr. dulles. slow? mrs. markham. yes, sir. mr. ball. was there a pool of blood where mr. tippit fell in the street? mrs. markham. yes, sir. mr. ball. i show you this picture, exhibit (renumbered as exhibit , see p. ). will you look at that picture and tell me whether it shows the approximate position where mr. tippit fell after he was shot? mrs. markham. he fell right out this way. mr. ball. look at the discoloration in the street. is that anywhere near where tippit fell? mrs. markham. it don't seem to me it was out that far. mr. ball. it doesn't? mrs. markham. it seemed like to me it was over this way because he fell this way. mr. ball. he fell this way? these people can't see what you are showing here. here is the pool of blood. which way do you think he fell? mrs. markham. see the wheel would be right down under here, back right this way. he fell this way. mr. ball. into the street? mrs. markham. yes, and his head was like this, you know, it was laying like this. mr. dulles. is this splotch out here in front of the car the pool of blood? mr. ball. out to the left. mrs. markham. it seems to me it ought to be here. mr. ball. but there was a pool of blood? mrs. markham. yes, sir. mr. ball. i will pass this out to the commissioners. representative ford. may i ask this, mr. ball, the place where you pointed, where you thought the pool of blood different from where it is shown on here was only a matter of what, a foot or two? mrs. markham. yes, sir; just about a little, back a little. it seems his hat was this way. representative ford. so it is a difference of a foot or two, at the most? mrs. markham. yes. mr. ball. that is right. mr. dulles. could you see the blood at this time or just see him fall? did you actually see blood? mrs. markham. did i actually see it, sir? i was there. mr. dulles. i know you were there. mrs. markham. i was standing over it. mr. dulles. you were standing right over the officer? mrs. markham. yes. just as soon as, just as quick as i could get to him; and the blood was coming from here like this and like that, in an oval shape. it did not splutter on his face too much, his mouth. it was here, coming out here. representative ford. the blood was? mrs. markham. yes, just gushes. i had my workshoes in my hand. i laid them up on the squad car. i had my purse, which i can't remember where i put it, but this, i had a head scarf around my head, i had my coat on. mr. ball. i would like to offer all of these into evidence at this time, up to , inclusive. the chairman. they may be received. (the items identified as commission exhibits nos. and were received in evidence.) the chairman. mr. dulles, will you preside in my absence, please. i must attend a session of the court. mr. dulles. i will, sir. (the chairman left the hearing room at this point.) mr. ball. mrs. markham, the police car, did the police car go beyond the man who was walking along the sidewalk, or did it stop opposite him? mrs. markham. almost even with him. mr. ball. and when the police car stopped, did the man stop? mrs. markham. yes, sir; and walked over to the policeman. mr. ball. the police car was going in the same direction as the man? mrs. markham. yes, sir. mr. ball. and caught up with him? mrs. markham. yes, sir. mr. ball. mrs. markham, do you know a man named mark lane? mrs. markham. no; i do not. mr. ball. did you ever hear of the name? mrs. markham. did not. mr. ball. did you ever talk to a new york lawyer who says he was from new york? mrs. markham. no, sir. mr. ball. did you ever talk to a lawyer who was investigating the case in behalf of the deceased man, lee oswald? mrs. markham. no, sir. mr. ball. did you ever talk to a man who said he was representing the mother of lee oswald? mrs. markham. no, sir. mr. ball. you don't remember ever talking to a man named mark lane? mrs. markham. no, sir. mr. ball. in an appearance before this commission, a man named mark lane has testified this way. let me read it to you. that was on wednesday, march , , vol. ii of a public hearing before this commission, page . this is what he said: "i spoke with the deponent"--he is talking about an affidavit that you made to the dallas police department--"i spoke with the deponent, the eyewitness, helen louise markham, and mrs. markham told me--miss or mrs., i didn't ask her if she was married--told me she was feet away from the police car, not the feet which appears in the affidavit." do you recall ever stating that to mr. lane or anyone else? mrs. markham. no, sir; no, sir. mr. ball. he testified: "she gave me a more detailed description of the man who she said shot officer tippit. she said he was short, a little on the heavy side, and his hair was somewhat bushy." did you say that to mark lane? mrs. markham. no, sir; i don't even know the man. mr. ball. or anybody else? mrs. markham. no, sir. mr. ball. did you ever tell anyone that the man who shot tippit was short, a little on the heavy side, and his hair was somewhat bushy? mrs. markham. no, sir. mr. ball. was the man, is it your memory now that the man who shot tippit was short, a little on the heavy side? mrs. markham. no, sir. he wasn't too heavy. mr. ball. is it your memory that his hair was bushy? mrs. markham. it wasn't so bushy. it was, say, windblown or something. what i mean, he didn't have a lot of hair. mr. ball. he didn't have a lot of hair? mrs. markham. no, sir; that i could see. i don't even know that man; i never talked to nobody. representative ford. you didn't talk to him by telephone or any other means? mrs. markham. no, sir. representative ford. did you ever get an anonymous phone call from a person who asked you these questions? mrs. markham. no. mr. ball. now, he also says, and he testified as follows: "helen markham said to me she was taken to the police station on that same day, that she was very upset. she, of course, had never seen anyone killed in front of her eyes before, and in the police station she identified oswald as the person who had shot officer tippit in the lineup, including three other persons. she said no one pointed oswald out to her, and she said she was just shown four people, and she picked oswald. she said when he asked her how she could identify him, she said she was able to identify him because of his clothing, a gray jacket and dark trousers." did you ever make that statement to him? mrs. markham. i did not, sir. mr. ball. or to anyone else? mrs. markham. not to anybody. mr. ball. when you identified oswald--it was the number man--were you told the number man whom you identified in the lineup? mrs. markham. no, i was not. mr. ball. were you ever told his name? mrs. markham. no. mr. ball. ever told his name later? mrs. markham. nobody, nobody told me nothing. mr. ball. well, the man that you identified as the number man in the lineup in the police station, you identified him as the man you had seen shoot officer tippit? mrs. markham. yes, i did. mr. ball. did you identify him because of his clothing that he had on at that time in the lineup. mrs. markham. just like i told you. i mostly looked at his face, his eyes, and his clothing, too. mr. ball. he said here you were able to identify him, mark lane testified that you told him you were able to identify him because of his clothing, a gray jacket. first, did the man in the lineup have a gray jacket on? mrs. markham. no, sir. mr. ball. what did he have on? mrs. markham. he had on this light shirt, dark trousers. mr. dulles. you have considered your answers very carefully, have you, on this point? mrs. markham. i am doing my best. mr. dulles. yes, i know you are, and you are quite sure you never talked to anyone who purported to be mr. lane? mrs. markham. never in my life. i talked to two men, and this man who told me he was from paris, france. he came down on my job. i was scared to death. i wasn't going to talk to him. i work for a greek. mr. dulles. let's get this a little more clearly, mrs. markham. you say you talked with someone who came from france? mrs. markham. yes. mr. dulles. did he represent a french newspaper? mrs. markham. yes. mr. dulles. you don't know what newspaper? mrs. markham. no. he told--you see, i didn't understand this man, but my boss could. mr. dulles. he came to you in the restaurant? mrs. markham. yes. and i was scared, which i was scared of everybody. i was upset and trying to work, too, and he was--he come to me and he asked for me and, of course, they knew who i was because i was there so long. mr. dulles. when was that? mrs. markham. i don't recall the date. mr. dulles. was it or days after the assassination or was it right after? mrs. markham. it was quite some time after. mr. dulles. some time after? mrs. markham. yes. mr. dulles. a week or more, maybe? mrs. markham. yes. representative ford. can you describe this man? mrs. markham. he had--he was dark complected, very nice man, black horn-rimmed glasses, black-headed, and he was build kind of---- mr. dulles. what did he ask you--excuse me. representative ford. was he tall or short, heavy set? mrs. markham. about medium, i guess. i didn't pay much attention to the man. representative ford. did he have an accent? mrs. markham. yes, he did. representative ford. was it difficult for you to understand him because of this accent? mrs. markham. yes. this is what this man told me. he told me--he told my boss and my boss also told me, my boss stood right beside me. representative ford. did he speak in english with an accent? mrs. markham. yes. but this man told me the government sent him. representative ford. did he identify which government? mrs. markham. he had--he showed me who he was. he was a news reporter. mr. dulles. did he say whether he was a foreigner or an american citizen? mrs. markham. i can't remember. i was too scared. but he did show me his identification, his picture and everything. the government had sent him to me, which he was coming to washington. he was supposed to be here, and then back somewhere in dallas, i think he told me. mr. dulles. could you recall the questions he asked you? mrs. markham. he just asked me very few questions. this man asked me about if the police had taken me down to the police station and did i see anything after i went into the police station, hear any tv, or see any tv, any radio, newspapers, or anybody talked to me, and i said they did not. representative ford. did your employer listen to the questions and answers? mrs. markham. yes, james gambolis listened to it. mr. dulles. we will take a moment's recess. (a short recess was taken.) mr. ball. on the d of november, , that is the day of the shooting, did you talk to an fbi agent named odum? do you remember? mrs. markham. i talked to some people, men, down at the police station. mr. ball. that is right. he says that you described the man who shot tippit as a white male, about , black hair, red complexion, wearing black shoes, tan jacket, and dark trousers. do you remember that? mrs. markham. i never said anything about his shoes because i never did look at his feet. mr. ball. did you say about ? mrs. markham. i said he was young looking. mr. ball. did you give that age, ? mrs. markham. no, i don't believe i did. mr. ball. did you say he had black hair? mrs. markham. yes, sir. mr. ball. you thought he was black-haired? mrs. markham. yes, that is what i told him. i thought he was black-haired. i remember saying that. mr. ball. red complexion? mrs. markham. no, not red complexioned. mr. ball. you didn't say that? mr. dulles. mrs. markham, did you say you talked to two persons, one person whom you are now describing from a foreign newspaper, and one other? mrs. markham. yes. mr. dulles. who was the other one with whom you talked? mrs. markham. i don't recall. he was a newspaper reporter by life magazine. mr. dulles. life magazine? mrs. markham. yes. i remember, which they did print the picture in life magazine. mr. dulles. and life magazine printed what you told them? mrs. markham. yes. mr. dulles. and printed it accurately as far as you recall? mrs. markham. very little of what i told him did he put in. mr. dulles. what they put in was accurate more or less? mrs. markham. yes. representative ford. it coincided with what you told him? mrs. markham. yes, just a little old paragraph or two. mr. dulles. except for those two persons, you don't recall talking with anyone about your testimony or your appearance in the lineup? mrs. markham. no, sir. mr. dulles. just those two? mrs. markham. yes, sir. mr. ball. just a few more questions, mrs. markham. you ran immediately over to where the police officer was lying in the street? mrs. markham. i did. mr. ball. was he alive? mrs. markham. yes, sir. mr. ball. did he say anything? mrs. markham. he was trying to, but he just couldn't. i just couldn't make out what he was trying to say. mr. ball. did some man come up immediately thereafter? mrs. markham. yes. mr. ball. what kind of a car did he have? mrs. markham. not immediately. mr. ball. soon? mrs. markham. soon. mr. ball. in a pickup truck? mrs. markham. yes. i very frankly remembered this truck, but i remember it the way it took off. mr. ball. he stopped though, didn't he? mrs. markham. yes. mr. ball. that is the man who called over the police radio, wasn't he? mrs. markham. i don't recall. mr. ball. what did he look like, the man in the pickup truck? mrs. markham. this man had a hat on. i thought he was a policeman. mr. ball. a dark man, looked somewhat spanish? mrs. markham. i don't recall. i was screaming and crying and trying to get help, begging for somebody to help me. mr. ball. when did you start screaming? mrs. markham. i started screaming by the time i left where i was standing and screamed plumb across the street. mr. ball. do you remember what you said? mrs. markham. "the man has killed a policeman," i remember, "somebody help. he has killed him, he has killed him," i was saying that, i was pulling my hair almost. it is a wonder he did not turn and kill me, really it was. mr. ball. did you see mr. scoggins? mrs. markham. i don't remember---- mr. ball. the taxicab driver. mrs. markham. yes, i saw the taxicab driver. mr. ball. where was the taxicab? mrs. markham. parked on patton. mr. ball. on patton? mrs. markham. yes, sir. mr. ball. did you see the man later, did you see him before the shooting? mrs. markham. yes, he was sitting in his cab. mr. ball. he was. then you saw him afterward, didn't you? mrs. markham. yes, sir. mr. ball. those are all the questions i have of this witness. do you have something additional? mrs. markham. believe me, it was just like---- mr. dulles. i believe mr. ford would like to have the witness repeat what she saw the man, now known as oswald, do after the shooting. will you just repeat that for congressman ford? mrs. markham. after he shot the policeman---- mr. dulles. after he shot the policeman. mrs. markham. after he shot the policeman he turned around, came back around toward patton street. he wasn't he didn't seem to be in a no hurry. i thought he hadn't done anything, and he was fooling with his gun in his hands, and he seen me, and he stops. mr. dulles. he stopped? mrs. markham. when he saw me. that is the reason we were looking at each other. mr. dulles. he hadn't seen you before so far as you could tell? mrs. markham. i put my hands over my face and closed my eyes, because i knew he was going to kill me. i couldn't scream, i couldn't holler. i froze. mr. dulles. i think you testified about that then he began to run slowly. mrs. markham. then---- mr. dulles. was that after he saw you? mrs. markham. yes; after i put my hands up, and when i had opened my fingers and my eyes and slowly pulled them down, he was trotting off. mr. dulles. trotting off? mrs. markham. yes, sir. he wasn't out of sight when i started running to this police car. he was not out of sight. mr. dulles. you didn't see which way he turned at the end of this run? mrs. markham. no; he cut across like this, across patton, and went out like that. mr. dulles. like this means to the right or to the left? mrs. markham. it means to the right, sir. mr. belin. to his right, to the man's right, as he was running? mrs. markham. he ran back, turned and came back down th to patton street. he cut across patton street like this. mr. belin. heading toward what street? mrs. markham. toward jefferson; yes, sir. then he was still in sight when i began to scream and holler and run to this police car, well, to mr. tippit. mr. dulles. thank you. mr. ball. are there any more questions? you can be excused, mrs. markham. mr. dulles. do you have any questions you would like to ask, mr. attorney general? mr. carr. no; i have not. mr. dulles. could you wait for just a moment. we are sorry to detain you. there is something that might come up with the next witness, and we might wish to ask you another question. i do not think we will. we are very grateful to you, mrs. markham. mr. ball. exhibit previously marked " ," which is the squad car, tippit, showing the street and blood spot in the street, i would like to have marked as "exhibit ." it was marked by mistake. mr. dulles. is that our last exhibit? mr. ball. that is our last exhibit, is our last exhibit now. (the item identified as commission exhibit no. was received in evidence.) mr. dulles. you might stand for just a moment, mr. scoggins. the witnesses are sworn before they can give testimony before this commission. do you swear, mr. scoggins, that the testimony that you will give before this commission is the truth, the whole truth, so help you god? mr. scoggins. to the best of my knowledge; yes. mr. dulles. be seated, please. mr. scoggins, the commission is taking testimony, and the chief justice asked me to preside in his absence, he has to be away in the court this morning. the purpose of today's hearing is to hear your testimony and that of certain others who were in the vicinity of the shooting of officer tippit, and we will want your testimony on that particular point this morning. will you proceed? mr. ball. mr. belin is going to examine this witness. mr. dulles. mr. belin will carry on the examination on behalf of the commission. will you proceed please? testimony of william w. scoggins mr. belin. yes, sir. will you please state your name, sir, for the record. mr. scoggins. william w. scoggins. mr. belin. where do you live, mr. scoggins? mr. scoggins. alaska. mr. belin. in what city and state is that? mr. scoggins. dallas. mr. belin. dallas, tex.? mr. scoggins. yes, sir. mr. belin. how old a gentleman are you? mr. scoggins. forty-nine. mr. belin. what is your occupation? mr. scoggins. taxicab driver, operator. mr. belin. for what company? mr. scoggins. the dallas transit co. i drive out of oak cliff. mr. belin. you drive out of oak cliff? mr. scoggins. yes, sir; oak cliff, yes, sir. mr. belin. where were you born, mr. scoggins? mr. scoggins. hillsboro, hill county. mr. belin. is that in texas? mr. scoggins. yes, sir. mr. belin. did you go to school there? mr. scoggins. well, i went most of the time in mclennan county; most of my schooling was down in mclennan county. mr. belin. how far did you get through school before you started to work? mr. scoggins. eighth grade. mr. belin. now what did you do after school? mr. scoggins. well, while i was going to school, and that time we lived on a farm, you know, and then after that, well, that would be a hard problem there. i left home when i was rather young, stayed with some of my brothers some, and then done odd jobs around for quite a while. my first job, i guess you might say, would be automobile paint job. mr. belin. automobile paint job? mr. scoggins. yes, new york city. mr. belin. new york city. how long did you stay in new york? mr. scoggins. approximately years. mr. belin. and then where did you go? mr. scoggins. i went back to texas. mr. belin. then what did you do there? mr. scoggins. done farmwork. mr. belin. and about how long did you do farmwork, approximately? mr. scoggins. well now, after--let's see, my life was kind of mixed up. i have been around quite a while in different places and things. after i left new york i went to connecticut to join the ccc camp and stayed there years. mr. belin. ccc camp? mr. scoggins. yes, sir. and then i went back to texas. the first thing i done was open up a cafe down there and operated it about a year, and from there went to waco and worked in a cotton mill, and then i moved back to west texas to a little town about miles out of waco, and lived there, and done farmwork for a couple or years, and then i moved to dallas. i think late in , and i worked for newhoff packers in dallas for years, and then i went into the aircraft business and worked for north american approximately years, and then i went into the contracting business for about a year, and went to general dynamics, worked there approximately - / years, and then i have been working for the company, taxicab company, for a couple of years. mr. belin. you have been driving a cab for years? mr. scoggins. no, not quite years. mr. belin. a little bit less than years? mr. scoggins. a year and months. i don't know exactly when i started. mr. belin. where were you driving your cab in the early part of the afternoon of november , , if you remember? mr. scoggins. well, i picked up a gentleman at love field at approximately : , i would say, and i discharged him at o'clock at north ewing. mr. belin. then where did you go? mr. scoggins. i went around by the gentlemen's club which i believe is patton. mr. belin. what did you do there? mr. scoggins. i pulled up and parked at the corner of patton and th and went back down to the club. at first, whenever i passed by, one of the guys hollered at me and asked me did i know the president had been shot, and i made the remark that i had not heard that one. i found a place to park and i came back, and he came back there in a couple of minutes and told me the facts about it. i thought it was some kind of a joke. so i had to go plumb up to the corner of th before i could find a parking place, and i parked right there on the corner and went back and got me a coke and watched the deal, watched the television. mr. dulles. would you speak a little louder, please; i can't quite hear. mr. scoggins. i got me a coke and watched television for a few minutes, i would say , , minutes, there, and went out to eat my lunch. mr. dulles. what were you seeing on television? mr. scoggins. the deal about the president getting assassinated; and when i got back to my cab and got my lunch, and, well, i noticed a police car cruising east there on th street. mr. belin. where was your cab parked with relationship to the intersection of patton and th? mr. scoggins. well, it was headed north on patton, facing th street, on the right-hand side of the street, right close to where the stop sign had been. mr. belin. now, the right-hand side of the street would be the east or the west? mr. scoggins. it would be the east side. i was headed north. mr. belin. all right. were you on the north side of the intersection or the south side of the intersection? mr. scoggins. south side. mr. dulles. how near the intersection were you? mr. scoggins. right near. they had a stop sign there and someone had had a wreck previously, i don't know, the sign was down. it was laying there, it had been bent over. representative ford. was this a normal stop for you, or how did you happen to be stopped there? mr. scoggins. well, i just went around just like i say. we can take our lunch hour anytime, you know; we can call in and say we are going to be out of service for lunch or for anything we might want to be out for, and that is what i had done. representative ford. this was not a regular place where you waited for calls? mr. scoggins. no. you see the way we operate there, just where we discharge a passenger, then we call in and tell them where we are at on our radio, and if they have anybody in that vicinity who needs a cab, they give us their address, you see. of course, now in the downtown area we do have stands to operate from, at the hotels, and then we have some stands at the medical buildings and the depot and the bus stations; and if we want to pick up there, we can pick up and we don't need to call in. but if we want to sit there we can call in that we are in this neighborhood. if they have got someone who has requested a cab, they give us the address, you see. mr. belin. mr. scoggins, showing you commission exhibit , i would like to ask you to state, if you know, what this is. mr. scoggins. yes, sir; that is the corner where i was sitting right here, you see, on th. mr. belin. you are pointing to something in the front-center part of the picture. what is that? mr. scoggins. that is the stop sign that had been knocked over. mr. belin. that is the knocked-over stop sign? mr. scoggins. yes. mr. belin. what intersection is that? mr. scoggins. tenth and patton. mr. belin. now, we offer in evidence remarked exhibit and also exhibit . (the items identified as commission exhibits nos. and were received in evidence.) mr. belin. mr. scoggins, handing you what has been marked as commission exhibit , which purports to be a plat, you see the streets of patton avenue there and east th. do you see any number on that exhibit, exhibit , which would indicate the approximate location of your car during the period that you are describing here? mr. scoggins. well, it looks to me like this number . mr. belin. you are not pointing to number . mr. scoggins. eleven, isn't it? mr. belin. it is , and here is . mr. scoggins. it looked like a to me. number . mr. belin. number is, you think, where you were with regard to---- mr. scoggins. within the general area. mr. belin. within the general area of number on exhibit . now, mr. scoggins, you stated you were sitting in your cab as you stopped at your intersection. you had a coke and your lunch. mr. scoggins. yes, sir. mr. belin. what were you doing, eating your lunch? mr. scoggins. i was in the process of eating it. mr. belin. you were in the process? mr. scoggins. i had taken one or two bites of my sandwich and drank a couple of swallows out of my coke. mr. belin. all right. mr. dulles. what time was this, approximately, as far as you can recall? mr. scoggins. around : in the afternoon. mr. belin. all right. will you please state then what happened, what you saw, what you did, what you heard? mr. scoggins. well, i first seen the police car cruising east. mr. belin. about how fast was it cruising? mr. scoggins. not more than or miles a hour, i would say. mr. belin. it was going east on what street? mr. scoggins. on tenth. mr. belin. all right. did you see the police car go across right in front of yours? mr. scoggins. yes; he went right down the street. he come from the west, going east on east tenth. mr. belin. then what did you see? mr. scoggins. i noticed he stopped down there, and i wasn't paying too much attention to the man, you see, just used to see him every day, but then i kind of looked down the street, saw this, someone, that looked to me like he was going west, now, i couldn't exactly say whether he was going west or was in the process of turning around, but he was facing west when i saw him. mr. belin. all right. mr. scoggins. and he was--he stopped there. mr. belin. let me ask you this now. when you first saw this man, had the police car stopped or not? mr. scoggins. yes; he stopped. when i saw he stopped, then i looked to see why he was stopping, you see, and i saw this man with a light-colored jacket on. mr. belin. now, you saw a man with a light-colored jacket. with relation to the police car, was the man east of the police car, west of the police car, or kind of---- mr. scoggins. just a little east is the best i can remember. mr. belin. he was a little bit east of the police car? mr. scoggins. yes; he was just a little bit forward. the police car headed east and he was a little bit, maybe not more than the front end of the car. mr. belin. you thought the man was at the front end of the car? mr. scoggins. yes; approximately. mr. belin. but by that you mean the front wheel or front bumper area? mr. scoggins. yes. mr. belin. was he on the sidewalk? mr. scoggins. at the time i saw him; yes. mr. belin. when you first saw him, i believe you said you saw the man's face, or did you not say that? mr. scoggins. i couldn't see the man's face from there. i saw the face when he passed the cab. mr. belin. what led you to believe that he was walking west? mr. scoggins. well, he was facing west. mr. belin. you mean he was facing west when you first saw him? mr. scoggins. yes; he was kind of facing that way. mr. belin. was it due west the way the sidewalk was, or was it---- mr. scoggins. yes; west in relation to the sidewalk. mr. belin. all right. then what did you see the man do? mr. scoggins. i saw him turn facing the street, and then i didn't see him any more after that because he went behind some shrubbery. mr. belin. did you see the police officer do anything? mr. scoggins. i saw him get out of the police car. mr. belin. did you see what side he went out of? mr. scoggins. he got out of the driver's side, left-hand side. mr. belin. then what did you see happen? mr. scoggins. then he took about a step, i would say, or approximately one or two steps, and then i wasn't really--you know--i went back to my eating, and about that time i heard the shots. mr. belin. how many shots did you hear? mr. scoggins. three or four, in the neighborhood. they was fast. mr. belin. they were fast shots? mr. scoggins. yes; they were fast. mr. belin. then what did you do or say or hear? mr. scoggins. then i saw the man falling, grab his stomach and fall. mr. belin. which man did you see fall? mr. scoggins. the policeman. i was excited when i heard them shots, and i started to get out--since we went back over there the other day and reenacted that scene, i must have seen him fall as i was getting out of my cab, because i got out of the cab, and in the process of getting out of the cab i seen this guy coming around, so i got out of sight. i started to cross the street, but i seen i didn't have enough time to cross the street before he got down there, so i got back behind the cab, and as he cut across that yard i heard him running into some bushes, and i looked up and seen him going south on patton and then when i jumped back in my cab i called my dispatcher. mr. belin. why did you jump out of your cab first when you heard the shots? mr. scoggins. because anytime that there is anything going on that is one thing the cab driver wants to do is to get away from that cab, because the man is going to try--if he had ever seen the cab, he looked back over his left shoulder, and i don't think he even seen the cab--he would have probably jumped in the cab and had me take him somewhere or maybe shot me, too, you know, and i didn't want to be around the cab at anytime while he was in the neighborhood, you know, when there was anything like that going on, or anything, robbery, or anything. mr. belin. i believe you said you saw the officer fall. did you see where he fell? mr. scoggins. yes; he fell right by the side of the front, about, a little bit forward of the door, right about the door. mr. belin. did you ever later go up and view the officer? mr. scoggins. yes. i went up there, but by the time i got up there the ambulance had already got there. you see i got my dispatcher and was telling him about it, just by that time the ambulance got there. mr. belin. did you notice anything in the street to indicate where the officer fell? mr. scoggins. there was blood there, of course. they picked the man up by the time i got there, the ambulance did. mr. dulles. could i ask one question? you were in touch with your dispatcher over your radio contact? mr. scoggins. yes, sir. mr. dulles. what did you tell your dispatcher? mr. scoggins. i told him there had been a policeman shot at th and patton, and you see they have a number of cars they are talking to, you know, and i had to holler about three or four times before i got his attention, and then i seen i wasn't going to get through to him, so i just hollered there had been a policeman shot at th and patton, and then they went to talking to me then. mr. dulles. what did they say to you then? mr. scoggins. the first thing they says is do they need an ambulance, and i says, "sure." and they wanted to know the exact location, and i said right off east of th and patton, and the ambulance was only a block and a quarter or so from the scene, you see, and they just come on right around there. mr. dulles. and this conversation took you a minute or two, would you estimate? mr. scoggins. yes, a couple of minutes, i would say. it was pretty close. mr. belin. mr. scoggins, handing you what the commission reporter has marked, or what has been marked as commission exhibit , i ask you to state if this substance on the street here appears to be anything you had ever seen before. mr. scoggins. yes; that appears to be the officer's blood, blood from the officer. mr. belin. is that located in approximate location to this car in the same relative position that you saw the blood when you were there, or is it any different, if you know? mr. scoggins. i was kind of excited there, a little bit, and i could be mistaken, but i was thinking he was a little bit closer to the car than that. mr. belin. you thought he was a little bit closer to the car than that? mr. scoggins. yes. i thought he was, but i could be mistaken. mr. belin. handing you what has been marked commission exhibit , which shows a picture of a car and appears to be some kind of a stain in the street, does that look to you any closer to the car than exhibit , or does that look to be about the same place? mr. scoggins. it looks to be about the same place as that one there does. mr. belin. all right. you thought it was a little bit closer to the front? mr. scoggins. all right. i thought it was. mr. belin. did the officer fall, did he fall forward or backward in any way? mr. scoggins. he fell forward. mr. belin. he fell forward? mr. scoggins. yes. mr. belin. do you remember where his head was lying as he fell forward, if you know? mr. scoggins. i wouldn't be sure about that. he kind of fell in a crumpled manner, i would say. mr. belin. when you saw the officer fall, when was the next place that you saw the man, or did you see him at the same time you saw the officer fall, the other man? mr. scoggins. no. i saw him coming kind of toward me around that cutoff through there, and he never did look at me. he looked back over his left shoulder like that, as he went by. it seemed like i could see his face, his features and everything plain, you see. mr. belin. was he walking or running or trotting? mr. scoggins. kind of loping, trotting. mr. belin. kind of loping or trotting? mr. scoggins. not in too big a hurry. it didn't seem like at first. mr. belin. at first not too big a hurry? mr. scoggins. yes. mr. belin. did he change that at all? mr. scoggins. never did change his pace as long as i saw him. i don't know where he went after he passed the cab and got down a little piece, because then i was busy trying to get my dispatcher, and i never did look and never did get to see him. mr. belin. did he have anything in his hand? mr. scoggins. he had a pistol in his left hand. mr. belin. did the pistol appear to be--did he appear to be doing anything with the pistol or not? mr. scoggins. yes. he had it, holding it, in his left hand in a manner that the barrel was up like this, and the stock was down here, curved back in here. mr. belin. did it look like the gun had been flipped open at all or not? mr. scoggins. i wouldn't say. mr. belin. you don't know? mr. scoggins. no; i don't. mr. dulles. you said he had it in his left hand? mr. scoggins. yes, sir. mr. belin. did you see where his right hand was? mr. scoggins. he was kind of running, kind of like this, in this manner. mr. belin. did you hear the man say anything? mr. scoggins. i heard him mutter something like, "poor damn cop," or "poor dumb cop." he said that over twice, and the last, i don't know whether the middle word was "damn" or "dumb," but anyway, he muttered that twice. mr. belin. did you hear him say any other word or phrase? mr. scoggins. no. mr. belin. did you hear anyone else making any noise at about that time? mr. scoggins. no; i didn't. of course, there were people coming up there, around there, but i didn't--i didn't notice any. mr. belin. recently in dallas you were asked to go to the scene of the tippit shooting to try to reconstruct the positions of the various people at this time; is that correct? mr. scoggins. yes, yes; i was over there---- mr. belin. and you parked your cab in what spot? mr. scoggins. there on patton, facing th at approximately the place i thought i was parked at, the reasonable area where i thought i was. i wouldn't say i was exactly on that spot, but within a foot or so. mr. belin. does exhibit appear to be a picture of your cab at that point? mr. scoggins. yes, sir. mr. belin. i also hand you commission exhibit and ask you if there is another view of your cab also at that same point? mr. scoggins. yes; it appears to be. mr. belin. you were there when those two pictures were taken? mr. scoggins. yes, sir; i was there whenever they took some picture. i couldn't swear these were the ones, but i imagine it was. mr. belin. these are pictures numbered and in that sequence there. mr. scoggins, at the time of november , , were there as many cars parked along patton street as appear to be in these exhibits and ? mr. scoggins. there wasn't as many on this side here. mr. belin. you are speaking now when you say "this side here," you are pointing to the east or west side of the street? mr. scoggins. on the west side. mr. belin. there weren't as many on the west side? mr. scoggins. there wasn't as many here as where the pickup truck is setting here. mr. belin. that would be down below the second or third car south of east th, is that right. mr. scoggins. yes; on this other side it was taken up solid, and the only place i could found is here is the reason i come up here and parked, because the club is down here at this other end, and i would have taken the first parking place i found because, you know, the closest to the club. mr. dulles. as far as you know, there were no people in these cars that were parked there? mr. scoggins. no; there was no one in those cars. mr. belin. did you see any people in any cars parked on either side of patton street? mr. scoggins. none. mr. belin. mr. scoggins, handing you exhibit , have you ever seen any jacket on any person in that area of east th and patton that looks familiar to, or looks anything similar to this exhibit, or does this appear to be lighter or darker than the jacket? mr. scoggins. it appears to be a little lighter, but the sleeves look familiar all right, the type of sleeve. he had on a jacket, the type of sleeve of that, but i thought it was a little darker. mr. belin. do you remember whether it was a zipper or button jacket or don't you---- mr. scoggins. no; i couldn't tell you that. mr. belin. do you remember what kind of trousers the man was wearing? mr. scoggins. the best i can remember they was dark, not too dark, and he had on a light shirt. mr. belin. a light shirt? mr. scoggins. i wouldn't say it was white, but---- mr. belin. would the shirt be lighter than exhibit or about the same color or darker or would exhibit look anything like the shirt you thought he was wearing, if you know? mr. scoggins. no, i don't, so i couldn't answer that. mr. belin. and you say you don't know, or you think this is different than what he was wearing? mr. scoggins. i couldn't say about the shirt. mr. belin. all right. mr. scoggins. i just couldn't. mr. belin. mr. scoggins, when you were in dallas the other day and they took these pictures, they also tried to take a picture through your car windows toward the place where the car of officer tippit was parked, is that correct? mr. scoggins. yes, sir. mr. belin. do you remember where the car of officer tippit was parked on november d? mr. scoggins. well, it was parked approximately between the first and second houses and across the driveway between the houses, pretty well across the driveway. mr. belin. was it parked across a driveway? mr. scoggins. yes, sir. as well as i remember, it was. mr. belin. handing you what has been marked exhibit , which purports to be a picture taken of a squad car, and i don't know if you can see through the window a little driveway---- mr. scoggins. yes. mr. belin. does that appear to be the driveway in front of which the squad car was parked? mr. scoggins. yes, sir. mr. belin. does that appear to be the two houses between which the driveway ran? mr. scoggins. yes. this would be the two houses--and the other one i didn't know. mr. belin. we have a magnifying glass here, and i believe with it we might be able to see the number on that house. can you see the number over the doorway of that house? mr. scoggins. . mr. belin. that would be which street? mr. scoggins. that would be on east th, on the south side. mr. belin. this appears to be, or does not appear to be, the position of the car on november ? mr. scoggins. yes; that appears to be the approximate position; i would say it was. mr. belin. now, handing you what has been marked exhibit , do you remember when this picture was taken? mr. scoggins. i remember the day. i don't remember the date of it. mr. belin. but you remember it was taken? mr. scoggins. i remember it was taken. mr. belin. sometime in march of this year? mr. scoggins. yes. mr. belin. you saw the photographer point the camera through the window? mr. scoggins. yes. mr. belin. is this about the view that you had toward the police car on november d? mr. scoggins. yes. mr. belin. as you were eating your lunch? mr. scoggins. yes. mr. belin. and it appears that you can see through one of the windows there the police car, is that correct? mr. scoggins. yes. mr. belin. was the police car at the time exhibit was taken, was it in the approximate same position that the car of officer tippit was on november ? mr. scoggins. i would think so, yes. mr. belin. well, you saw the police car there? mr. scoggins. yes. mr. belin. was it parked about in front of that driveway? mr. scoggins. yes; i would say in the same area. you know, it may not be on the same inch. mr. belin. within a foot or two? mr. scoggins. yes. mr. belin. i wonder if you would take exhibit and see if there is any number on exhibit which corresponds to the position of the man who was walking along east th street, or wherever he was when you first saw him. mr. scoggins. approximately where is. mr. belin. yes; you are pointing to the position where the arrow is in number ? mr. ball. mr. belin, he didn't see him walking. mr. scoggins. i saw him there. mr. belin. i used the word "walking." pardon me. when you first saw him he was on point . where did you see him when you next saw him, where did you see him when he moved? mr. scoggins. when i next saw him he was in the process of running up th street. mr. belin. you next saw him after the shooting then? mr. scoggins. yes; i did. mr. belin. about where was he on th street when you next saw him? mr. scoggins. he was on the sidewalk when i saw him, about, i would say, about--i am trying to figure out now--about number or back a little piece from . mr. belin. here is the squad car and would be just east of the squad car? mr. scoggins. yes. mr. belin. all right. you saw him there? mr. scoggins. yes. mr. belin. what was he doing when you saw him in the area of in exhibit ? mr. scoggins. he was proceeding west on th and had---- mr. belin. all right. i wonder if you would just take this pen and on exhibit mark the route that you think this man took. mr. scoggins. this is a sidewalk here. mr. belin. that is the sidewalk. mr. scoggins. this is the house back here. mr. belin. this is the corner house, this is the second house, this is the third house, , , and . mr. dulles. what does that line show, mr. belin? mr. belin. this is to show the movement of the man from point . mr. dulles. along the sidewalk going west? mr. belin. yes. mr. scoggins. he ran to the point in the shrubbery. mr. belin. is that as far as you have seen him go? mr. scoggins. yes. mr. belin. you have now marked by ink line commencing on exhibit to a point that i will mark is the route that you believe you saw the man take. where were you when you saw him take this route? mr. scoggins. when i first saw him coming, you see, over here, i got out of my cab and i started to cross the street to find a place to get behind, and i got midway across the street, and then i got back and hid behind the cab. i didn't see him in here, but i saw him when he hit the shrubbery, when he hit that shrubbery. mr. belin. there is an opening in part of that shrubbery? mr. scoggins. yes, and i heard that when he hit that, and he was looking over his left shoulder at that time. i first saw him and then i got out---- mr. belin. i wonder if you would show us on exhibit , if you would put an x there, the approximate location you were when you saw this man. mr. scoggins. when i first saw him? mr. belin. no; when you first--yes, you can put where you first saw him. mr. scoggins. i was sitting inside my cab when i first saw him. mr. belin. i mean after the shooting. mr. scoggins. after the shooting i guess when i first saw him, right along about here. mr. belin. all right, we are going to put--you had gotten out of your car, and we are going to put a letter "a" with an arrow there. where were you when you saw him coming through the bushes, or by the bushes? mr. scoggins. i was back there beside my cab. mr. belin. you were still at that same point? mr. scoggins. no, when i first saw him i left the cab and i went out to the middle of the street. mr. belin. where were you when you first saw him and he was at the point you marked, position here on exhibit ? mr. scoggins. here. mr. belin. at point "a." then you went to the--you went out to the street, in the street, and came back to point "a" on exhibit --were you standing or were you crouched? mr. scoggins. i was kind of crouched down behind the cab. mr. belin. all right. how did you see him if you were crouched? mr. scoggins. well, whenever he run through those bushes i looked up again, you see. mr. belin. you looked through your cab window? mr. scoggins. i heard him--whenever i heard him hit those bushes---- mr. belin. did you stand or just look through your cab window? mr. scoggins. i just looked and saw he was going down there. mr. belin. about how close was this man to you when you saw him, the closest when you saw him coming through the bushes, approximately. mr. scoggins. oh, i would say from here to that chair down there. mr. belin. pardon? mr. scoggins. about that chair down there. mr. belin. feet? mr. scoggins. yes. mr. dulles. referring to your tracing of the path that the man later found to be oswald followed, he went through the lower of these two bushes there, did he? he went right through it? mr. scoggins. yes, sir. you see there is an opening in there. mr. dulles. but he didn't apparently take the opening, according to this, because he went right through the bushes. mr. scoggins. well, because i didn't see any opening in there. was there an opening in there? mr. belin. mr. dulles, for the record, when you are referring to , there is an opening between the shrubbery, but within the shrubbery itself there is an opening, and i think it will appear if you---- mr. dulles. i think the witness testified he heard the bushes move. mr. scoggins. yes. mr. belin. yes. but the opening within the bushes, is it a large opening or a small opening between the bushes? mr. scoggins. it is not too large, but a man can get through very easily by going through. mr. dulles. but he hits the bushes as he goes through? mr. scoggins. yes. mr. dulles. i see. that makes it clear. mr. belin. it is not the wide opening between the two sets of bushes. mr. dulles. it is not quite as wide. mr. scoggins. it is an opening between the bushes themselves, like maybe someone had planted three bushes and maybe one of them had died to break the shrubbery. mr. dulles. that has happened to me. mr. belin. what i am saying, mr. dulles, on exhibit there are two groups of bushes. within the lower group of bushes there is a slight space to which the witness is referring. mr. dulles. i see. it is not the space here. mr. belin. it is not the space between the two sets of bushes. mr. dulles. at this point do you recall whether he was running or walking or what pace was he going at? mr. scoggins. he was going at a kind of lope. mr. dulles. lope? mr. scoggins. yes, what you might call a little trot. he did not seem in too big a hurry, but he wasn't walking. mr. belin. mr. scoggins, you last saw the man when he was at the point that you let the line stop at on exhibit , is that correct? mr. scoggins. yes, sir. that would be in the approximate location. mr. belin. what did you do? mr. scoggins. i got on my radio. mr. belin. and then you told us about calling your dispatcher? mr. scoggins. yes. mr. belin. what did you do after that? mr. scoggins. well, i got back in my cab to call my dispatcher, you see. mr. belin. yes. mr. scoggins. and then i got out of the cab and run down there; the ambulance had already arrived by the time i got there, and they were in the process of picking the man up, and they had done had him, was putting him on the stretcher when i got there, and they put him in the ambulance and took him away, and there was someone that got on the radio at that time and they told him he was going to report it, so they told him to get off the air, that it had already been reported, and he picks up the officer's pistol that was laying on the ground, apparently fell out of his holster when he fell, and says, "come on, let's go see if we can find him." mr. dulles. before you ask the next question, i wonder if i can ask one question here. do you know whether the ambulance came as a result of the message you sent? mr. scoggins. no, i sure don't. mr. dulles. you do not know? mr. scoggins. no. mr. dulles. from the time angle, do you think that could have happened? mr. scoggins. it was awful fast if it did. they got there awfully quickly if they did. mr. dulles. you don't know of any other warning going in; you put your warning in, and that is all you know about it? mr. scoggins. that is all i know about it at that time, and i do know this other gentleman called after i got up to the car, he called in, and they told him it had already been. (off the record discussion.) mr. belin. mr. scoggins, i started to ask you about the revolver of the policeman when you came and saw him. this was in his holster or on the street? mr. scoggins. it was on the street whenever i saw it. mr. belin. do you know where it was with relation to the policeman's body? mr. scoggins. it was there pretty close to his body, you know, like kind of under his body when they picked him up. it either fell out of his holster or was laying on the ground, one, i don't know which. mr. belin. what did you see him do? this man came up and picked up the policeman's gun. he picked it up and said, "let's go see if we can find him?" mr. scoggins. i thought the man was a kind of police, secret service or something, i didn't know, and i take him and we drove around over the neighborhood looking, and i still didn't know what kind--i still thought he was connected with the police department in some way. mr. belin. what route did you take as you drove over the neighborhood? mr. scoggins. i couldn't tell you. mr. belin. you can't tell us the route you took over the neighborhood? mr. scoggins. i was doing the driving and he was doing the directing. mr. belin. he directed you where to go? mr. scoggins. actually, i couldn't say where he was going. mr. belin. all right. representative ford. were you in your cab? mr. scoggins. yes. representative ford. when you saw the pistol it wasn't in officer tippit's hands? mr. scoggins. no, sir; oh, he never did have a pistol in his hand, as far as i know. mr. belin. you saw him when he was falling? mr. scoggins. yes; he was holding his stomach. mr. belin. you saw him holding his stomach as he fell? mr. scoggins. yes. mr. belin. did he have anything in his hands? mr. scoggins. if he did i couldn't see it, and i don't think he ever got to his pistol from what i saw. mr. belin. did you see the man with the gun as he opened his gun, as he was going to the west on--up th street at all after the shooting? mr. scoggins. no, i didn't see him. mr. belin. after you went around to look for the man, did you find him at all? mr. scoggins. no. we drove around and asked several people, but we did not see anybody that looked like him. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. scoggins. well, by that time there was more policemen there than you can shake a stick at. they were all over that place, and we stopped the cab. mr. belin. at about what time, do you know offhand? mr. scoggins. about : , i guess, approximately : ; between : and : , i would say. we cruised around several blocks looking for him, and we--one of these police cars came by and this fellow who was with me stopped it, and we got back in the car and went back up to the scene, and he give them the pistol, and that time is when i found out he wasn't an officer. mr. belin. then what happened, or what did you do? mr. scoggins. well, they was questioning a lot of people and questioning everybody, and they was talking, and so i went back and got on my radio and contacted my supervisor, and they wanted me to come into the office and make a statement, and so i did, the cab company. one of the supervisors got a statement of it, and he asked me did the police, did i give them a statement, and i told him no because, and he said, "well, why didn't you?" i said, "they didn't ask me. they talked with everybody else." so the next day they took me down and put me through a lineup, showed me a lineup of four people, and i identified the one that i had seen the day before. mr. belin. now, let me ask you this question. first of all, do you remember, or can you describe the man you saw on november with the gun? mr. scoggins. he was a medium-height fellow with, kind of a slender look, and approximately, i said , years old, somewhere along there. mr. belin. do you remember the color of his hair? mr. scoggins. yes. it was light; let's see, was it light or not--medium brown, i would say. mr. belin. pardon? mr. scoggins. medium brown, i would say--now, wait a minute. now, medium brown or dark. mr. belin. medium brown or dark hair? mr. scoggins. yes. mr. belin. was he a negro or a white man? mr. scoggins. white, light complected, not real brown. mr. belin. was he fat, average build or thin? mr. scoggins. no, he was slender; not real slender, but you know---- mr. belin. was he wearing glasses or not? mr. scoggins. no. mr. belin. pardon? mr. scoggins. no. mr. belin. that he had on? mr. scoggins. no. mr. belin. anything else you remember about him, the color of his shoes? mr. scoggins. no, i can't say that. mr. belin. do you remember any jewelry he might have had on? mr. scoggins. no. mr. belin. you say you went down to the police station when, mr. scoggins, approximately? mr. scoggins. you mean the time of day it was? mr. belin. was it the same day of the shooting or the next day? mr. scoggins. no, it was the next day. mr. belin. morning, afternoon, or evening, if you remember? mr. scoggins. well, the best i can remember, they called me down from the cab stand, the police came down to the office and picked me up. well, the other guy--i was close to the downtown area, and it didn't take me long to get there, and i waited quite a while before the other man, he was quite out a ways, and it was before dinner. mr. belin. it was before dinner? mr. scoggins. yes, whenever they called me in. mr. belin. would it have been on the afternoon of november , to the best of your recollection? mr. scoggins. when they took me down there it was along about dinner time. representative ford. what do you mean by dinner time? in various parts of the country dinner and supper get confused a little bit. was it the noon meal or the evening meal? mr. scoggins. yes. representative ford. yes what? it was the noon meal? mr. scoggins. yes. mr. belin. they took you down about the time of the noon meal, is that correct; they took you to the police station? mr. scoggins. i would think that would be about the time. mr. belin. sometime after you got there after the noon meal you saw the lineup, is that correct? mr. scoggins. yes. mr. belin. how many people were in the lineup, if you can remember? mr. scoggins. four. mr. belin. four? did any one of the people look anything like--strike that. did you identify anyone in the lineup? mr. scoggins. i identified the one we are talking about, oswald. i identified him. mr. belin. you didn't know his name as oswald at that time, did you, or did you not? mr. scoggins. yes, the next day i did. but, of course i didn't know what his name was the day that i picked him out. mr. belin. you saw a man in the lineup? mr. scoggins. yes. mr. belin. did anyone tell you any particular man was oswald in the lineup? mr. scoggins. no. mr. belin. well, describe what happened in the police station with regard to the lineup, what they did to you, what they said to you, and what you said to them, and so on. mr. scoggins. well, they had the four men up there in the lineup, and before they brought them in they told us what they wanted us to do, to look them over and be sure we was, in our estimation, we was right on the man, and which one it was, the one that we saw, the one that i saw. mr. belin. did they tell you one of the men was the man you saw or not, or did they tell you "see if you can"--just what did they say? did they say "here is a lineup, see if you can identify anyone," or did they say, "one of the men in the lineup"---- mr. scoggins. yes, i believe those are the words they used. i am not---- mr. belin. did all of these men look different to you? were most of them fat, or were most of them thin, or some fat, some thin, some tall, some short? mr. scoggins. there were two of them--the one that i identified as the one i saw over at oak cliff, and there was one i saw similar to him, and the other two was a little bit shorter. mr. dulles. had you been looking at television or seeing television prior to your appearance here at the lineup? mr. scoggins. no. mr. dulles. you had not? mr. scoggins. no, sir. representative ford. had you been working this saturday morning with your cab? mr. scoggins. yes, sir. representative ford. in other words, you went to work saturday morning at the regular time? mr. scoggins. yes. representative ford. and were working when they asked you to come down to the cab stand to go over to the police station? mr. scoggins. yes, sir. representative ford. all right. mr. belin. had you seen any pictures of lee harvey oswald in the newspapers prior to the time you went to the police station lineup? mr. scoggins. i think i saw one in the morning paper. mr. belin. do you subscribe to the morning or evening paper? mr. scoggins. i take the evening paper myself. mr. belin. you went down and bought a morning paper? mr. scoggins. no; i didn't go out. i was looking at one of the--some of the cab drivers had it. mr. belin. did you see any television picture on the morning of november of lee harvey oswald? mr. scoggins. i have never until this day seen it. mr. belin. on television? mr. scoggins. i never have. representative ford. do you have a television in your home? mr. scoggins. yes sir; i do. but i don't--when i get home i will read the paper, and after you work about hours you don't feel like fooling around with television too much. mr. belin. what number man in the lineup did you identify as having seen on november ? mr. scoggins. number . mr. belin. did you have the man turn around, or could you---- mr. scoggins. yes, they turned him around. mr. belin. did they turn just one man around or all of them? mr. scoggins. no; they had them all. mr. belin. do you remember if the number man in the lineup was wearing the same clothes that the man you saw at the tippit shooting wore? mr. scoggins. he had on a different shirt, and he didn't have a jacket on. he had on kind of a polo shirt. mr. belin. before you went to view the lineup, did any of the police officers show you a picture of this man? mr. scoggins. no. mr. belin. sometime later, after the lineup, did any investigator come up to you with a picture of anyone and ask you if you could identify him? mr. scoggins. yes. mr. belin. do you remember if he was an fbi man or a dallas policeman or a secret service agent? mr. scoggins. he was an fbi or a secret service. mr. belin. what did he ask you and what did you tell him? mr. scoggins. he gave me some pictures, showed me several pictures there, which was, some of them were, pretty well resembled him, and some of them didn't, and they looked like they was kind of old pictures, and i think i picked the wrong picture. i am not too---- mr. belin. what did he say to you and what did you say to him, if you remember? mr. scoggins. i don't really--i know he showed me his credentials. mr. belin. did he say to you something like "these are pictures we have of lee harvey oswald"? did he use that name in front of you, or did he say, "here are some pictures. see if you can identify them"--if you remember? mr. scoggins. i don't remember, but after i got through looking at them and everything, and i says, i told them one of these two pictures is him, out of this group he showed me, and the one that was actually him looked like an older man than he was to me. of course, i am not too much on identifying pictures. it wasn't a full shot of him, you know, and then he told me the other one was oswald. representative ford. had you narrowed the number of pictures from more than two to two? mr. scoggins. yes. representative ford. in other words, they showed you pictures of how many people altogether, how many different people, your best estimate? mr. scoggins. i would say or . representative ford. and you narrowed the number of or down to ? mr. scoggins. down to two; yes. mr. belin. mr. scoggins, at the time of the shooting, did you see any pedestrians standing at the corner of east th and patton, any of the corners there? mr. scoggins. i didn't see anybody. i was kind of excited. mr. belin. did you see any other person walking along the street there? mr. scoggins. not at the time of the shooting, i didn't. mr. belin. is there anything you can think of that you haven't told us here that might be relevant to what you saw in connection with the tippit shooting? mr. scoggins. no, i can't--nothing that i know of. that is the first time i ever seen anything like that happen, and i was pretty well excited and mixed up, and not knowing what to do or what not to do. but actually, of course, right after the shooting, i saw a number of people come running over, you see, from everywhere. mr. belin. were they all men? mr. scoggins. no, they were just people. mr. belin. general carr, do you have any questions? mr. carr. no, sir. i was exploring with him, but i guess we won't get into it. mr. belin. those are all the questions i have. just a second. when you saw a picture in the morning paper of lee harvey oswald, did this look similar to the man you saw at the tippit shooting, or did it look different? mr. scoggins. i would say similar; yes. mr. belin. did it look like the same man? mr. scoggins. yes. representative ford. what kind of eyesight do you have? mr. scoggins. i had my eyes examined when i went to work for the cab company and the lady said i had remarkable eyesight. you know, they have--after i went to work, after a while, i had to go get my eyes examined. representative ford. you had your eyes examined subsequent to your employment with the cab company? mr. scoggins. well, it was sometime after, maybe months after. mr. dulles. how many years ago was that? mr. scoggins. oh, about a year, approximately. representative ford. at that time what did the eye examiner tell you? mr. scoggins. she said i had excellent eyesight and vision. representative ford. you don't wear glasses? mr. scoggins. no. representative ford. what about your hearing? mr. scoggins. i can hear. i got good hearing. i never did have it examined or anything, but i can hear everything. representative ford. have you ever had any difficulty with the law, have you ever had any trouble with officers of the law? mr. scoggins. i got a ticket for parking that i had to pay. representative ford. that is a traffic violation. mr. scoggins. yes. no; i really haven't had any problems that amount to anything otherwise than traffic violations. representative ford. nothing other than traffic violations? mr. scoggins. well, i was picked up one time in new york city for stowing away on a tugboat. mr. belin. stowing away on a boat? mr. scoggins. actually what happened---- mr. dulles. how old were you then? mr. scoggins. or . i was sleeping in a boxcar and they put that boxcar on a tugboat and sent it across the river. mr. dulles. you stowed away without knowing it. mr. scoggins. yes. mr. dulles. i don't think that is a very grave offense. mr. scoggins. no. i never have been in any grave trouble. mr. belin. one more question, mr. scoggins. you rode up here to washington on an airplane with mrs. markham, did you not? mr. scoggins. yes. mr. belin. before you saw mrs. markham the other day, did you ever recognize her as having seen her from the time of the tippit shooting at all or not? mr. scoggins. yes, i saw her down there talking to the policemen after i came back. you see. i saw her talking to them. mr. belin. you never actually saw her standing on the street, did you? mr. scoggins. i never actually observed her there. mr. belin. all right. mr. dulles. when you say, "i came back" is that when you got into your car? mr. scoggins. after i had got in the car and toured the neighborhood and then the policemen came along and i left my cab setting down there and got in a car with them and left the scene. mr. dulles. at what stage did you see mrs. markham? mr. scoggins. after i had gotten back up there. after i had drove around in the neighborhood looking for oswald or looking for this guy. mr. dulles. it was after that? mr. scoggins. it was after that. (discussion off the record.) mr. belin. mr. scoggins, when you identified the man in the lineup at the police station on november , was there any other person who at the same time was asked to identify a man in that lineup? mr. scoggins. yes, one other. mr. belin. do you know--one other person? mr. scoggins. yes. mr. belin. do you know what that man's name is or what his occupation is? mr. scoggins. yes, he drives a taxicab. mr. belin. do you know his name? mr. scoggins. yes; his name is bill whaley. mr. belin. whaley? mr. scoggins. i think it is whaley. i didn't know him from adam until that day, you know, and he said his name was whaley. mr. belin. when you were there and identified a man, had whaley already identified that man or not? i mean, did you hear whaley or see whaley identify that man? mr. scoggins. no. he was sitting over on my left. mr. belin. he was on your left? mr. scoggins. yes. it was dark. they turned the lights out where we were sitting. we could see the man with lights up there. mr. belin. could you see mr. whaley at the time he made the identification? mr. scoggins. well, i suppose if i would have looked over there i could have seen that there was a man there, that i could have recognized him. mr. belin. were you looking at mr. whaley at the time? mr. scoggins. no. mr. belin. did you make your identification by your voice or by your hands? mr. scoggins. by my hands, using--i put up three fingers. mr. belin. did they tell you ahead of time to hold up the number of fingers for the man that you saw? mr. scoggins. yes, sir. mr. belin. how many fingers did you hold up? mr. scoggins. three. mr. belin. at the time you held up your three fingers, did you know how many fingers mr. whaley was holding up? mr. scoggins. no. mr. belin. then did you know whether or not mr. whaley had identified the man? mr. scoggins. no, i sure don't. mr. belin. was there any person or were there any persons standing between you and mr. whaley? mr. scoggins. that i don't know because i did not look over there. mr. dulles. could mr. whaley, in your opinion, see you holding up these fingers? mr. scoggins. no, no. i made sure of that because i had my hand down like this. mr. belin. when you had your hand down you are putting it in front of your belt? mr. scoggins. as well as i could remember i had it down kind of like this here. i don't know whether i used my right or my left hand, but i didn't hold up three fingers like this, but i held them down just about like this. mr. belin. you are pointing to your right hand and putting it somewhat about a few inches above the buckle of your belt; is that about where you held up your fingers? mr. scoggins. about as well as i could remember. mr. belin. what happened after you held up your fingers, did someone see you holding your fingers up there? mr. scoggins. yes. representative ford. where were they standing beside you so that they could see your fingers? mr. scoggins. well, this gentleman was standing over back a piece to my left, sir. representative ford. was it close to you, sir? mr. scoggins. there was one man on my right. he was secret service or fbi, i think fbi; and the other man was a policeman, dallas policeman. mr. dulles. do you know whether mr. whaley was making his identification at the same time that you did or did he make it before or after? mr. scoggins. no. all i know is that we viewed them at the same time. mr. dulles. he viewed them at the same time? mr. scoggins. yes. mr. dulles. you don't know at what time mr. whaley made his identification? mr. scoggins. yes. mr. dulles. you didn't see him make the identification? mr. scoggins. i didn't even see him. mr. dulles. you don't know what his identification was? mr. scoggins. no. i never asked him which one or nothing, because i never did discuss it with him at all after that. representative ford. when you brought your cab up to the corner of th and patton, did you just conclude or had you just concluded dropping a passenger? mr. scoggins. well, approximately five minutes before that. representative ford. do you keep a record of the trips that you take? mr. scoggins. yes, sir. representative ford. during your working day? mr. scoggins. yes, sir. if i pick up a passenger, say, like minutes to o'clock, we put minutes to . we don't put the odd minutes down. if we let him out minutes after , we put down o'clock. i know i let him out at o'clock, maybe a minute or two after. we do put the destination we leave from and the destination he is going to on our records sheet. representative ford. what does your record show about this last trip? mr. scoggins. well, i picked him up at love field and carried him to north ewing, as well as i can remember now, that was the address. representative ford. and your record shows that? mr. scoggins. when i picked him up, the mileage started from, the mileage i let him out on the speedometer. when i picked him up we put the mileage down. we don't put the tenth down, and when we let him out we put the mileage and the time; and when we pick him up we put the mileage and the time, and the destination where we start and where we let him off, and the amount the fare was. representative ford. and your last entry shows what for that day? mr. scoggins. i don't know what the last entry was. up until then that was the one where i let the man off at. it was an apartment building. of course, i don't have the apartment number, anything like that. the guy says, "i want to go to north ewing," and that is where i take him. it is an apartment. of course now, if somebody calls in for a cab at a certain address, if it is an apartment, they have to give their apartment number so we could find it. representative ford. how far was this last destination to the point of th and patton? mr. scoggins. it was less than a mile, about a half mile or maybe--well, let's see, it was closer to a mile, i would say. representative ford. was there any particular reason why you went to the corner of th and patton? mr. scoggins. yes. i belong to that club there, and i was going around there to get me a coca cola that i could have gotten anywhere else, but i know a lot of the guys. representative ford. what is the club called? mr. scoggins. it is a gentleman's club, a domino parlor where we play dominos. representative ford. it is at what address? mr. scoggins. or south patton. mr. belin. about where is it in relation to east th and patton, how far away, a block, two blocks? mr. scoggins. it is not a block. it is just about, i would say, just--if it was measured it would be a little over a half block from where i was parked at to the place, you see. mr. belin. i wonder, perhaps, if we can see it on any of these pictures, mr. scoggins. do you see it in this picture, exhibit ? mr. scoggins. yes; i can see the building. mr. belin. let's see the building here. mr. scoggins. that is it up there. mr. belin. i wonder if we can't, perhaps, put on exhibit an arrow which points to this building, and we will put "g" for the gentleman's club; is that correct? is that the building to which you are referring? mr. scoggins. yes. mr. belin. mr. scoggins, we have another picture that we would like to have you identify, commission exhibit . this is a picture in which the camera appears to be heading in what direction? mr. scoggins. it would be heading east--i mean west on th street. mr. belin. that picture was taken the other day at the time you drove your cab back to that scene, is that correct? mr. scoggins. i would think it was; yes. mr. belin. does this appear to be the position your cab was in at the time of the shooting of officer tippit? mr. scoggins. yes. mr. belin. all right. at this time we offer and introduce into evidence all exhibits up through , except we do not have a because we renumbered the original exhibit , so we do not have a . do you have anything more, congressman ford? representative ford. those exhibits will be admitted. (items identified as commission exhibits through no. , with the exception of exhibit no. , were admitted in evidence.) mr. dulles. mr. scoggins, you have referred, i believe, to a conversation you had with mr. whaley, i think his name is, and i would like to have you just recount what you recall of what mr. whaley said to you, and where he said it, and at what time. mr. scoggins. well now, this conversation we are talking about, while we were down there waiting. mr. dulles. down where, down at the police station? mr. scoggins. no; down at the cab office--it is a cab office at south akard street, you know. mr. dulles. a cab stand? mr. scoggins. yes. we call it our main office. mr. dulles. and mr. whaley's cab belonged to the same company as your cab? mr. scoggins. yes, sir. only he drives out of downtown, which office is south akard street, that is the number. they have a building there, a large building, with all the dispatching offices and everything, and mine, of course, i have got the same dispatchers, we all belong to the same company. i drive an oak cliff cab, and he drives downtown. mr. dulles. relate what mr. whaley said to you. mr. scoggins. he didn't relate it to me. he was talking to the others. mr. dulles. he was talking to cabdrivers? mr. scoggins. he was talking to one of the---- mr. dulles. where did this take place? mr. scoggins. it was down at the cabstand. mr. dulles. was this on saturday after the assassination? mr. scoggins. and he was telling them where he picked him up and where he took him to. mr. dulles. and that is what you recall? mr. scoggins. yes; because i didn't know him. i wasn't acquainted with the man. mr. dulles. you were not acquainted with mr. whaley? mr. scoggins. no. before he came down there that morning i wouldn't have known him from adam, you know, just wouldn't have had any idea who he was. mr. dulles. would you recall what he said as to where he picked up the man and where he took him? mr. scoggins. he said he picked him up at the greyhound bus and carried him to a neighborhood, no particular address, on north beckley, the block. mr. dulles. have you anything more on that, mr. belin? mr. belin. no, sir. i do have one other question. mr. dulles. proceed then. mr. belin. do you remember whether or not your dispatcher recorded any time on his sheets as to the time you called in after the tippit shooting? mr. scoggins. when i was down there giving my statement to my supervisor, he asked me what time it was, and i said i don't have any idea, so he picked up the phone and called the dispatcher, and he said it was : . mr. belin. that is the time that he recorded it? mr. scoggins. yes. he must have recorded it up there because he said it was : in the afternoon. mr. belin. when you called in after the shooting? mr. scoggins. yes. mr. dulles. anything else? mr. belin. no, sir. mr. dulles. any further questions? well, thank you very much, mr. scoggins. testimony of helen markham resumed mr. dulles. you were sworn when you previously were before us, and this testimony of yours will be covered by the oath you previously have given. will you be seated? mr. ball. i have two commission exhibits, and . i will show them to you, mrs. markham, and i will ask you if you have ever seen the man who is pictured there, whose picture is shown on these two exhibits. mrs. markham. no. mr. ball. never have seen him before. do you think he might have been one of the men you talked to before? mrs. markham. no, no. mr. ball. they are pictures of the same man. mrs. markham. no. mr. dulles. we are inquiring whether you had ever seen him after the assassination. mrs. markham. yes, i know. no; not this man. this man i have never seen--i have never seen this man in my life. mr. ball. i have no further questions. mr. dulles. do you know who he is? mrs. markham. no; i don't. it is just a picture of a man; i don't know him. mr. dulles. mr. ball, do you have any further questions? mr. ball. no further questions. representative ford. have you ever had any difficulty with the law, mrs. markham? mrs. markham. no. representative ford. none whatsoever? mrs. markham. no, sir. representative ford. traffic violations? mrs. markham. no, sir. mr. dulles. you are lucky. mrs. markham. i have never been in trouble. representative ford. no difficulties whatsoever with the law? mrs. markham. no, sir. mr. ball. that is all, mrs. markham. you can be excused. mr. dulles. thank you very much, mrs. markham. mr. ball. i offer exhibits and in evidence at this time. mr. dulles. they will be received. (the items identified as commission exhibits nos. and were received in evidence.) mr. ball. they were taken from a newspaper, they were taken from newspaper accounts which purported to be, to show, the picture of a man named mark lane. mr. dulles. yes, because he appeared before this commission, did he not? mr. ball. yes. mr. dulles. mr. redlich, can you identify him? were you present when mr. lane appeared before this commission? mr. redlich. yes; i was. mr. dulles. can you identify these pictures as pictures of mr. lane? mr. redlich. yes; i can identify these as pictures of mr. lane. i would also like for the record to indicate where they came from. commission exhibit no. is taken from--commission exhibit came from the san francisco chronicle, and dated february , , and purports to be a photograph of mark lane. commission no. is a photograph from a newspaper clipping which was in the commission files, and it is an associated press photograph, and appeared, it is taken from the new york herald tribune of march , , and purports to be a photograph of mark lane. i have met mr. lane once or twice prior to his appearance before this commission, and i was present during his testimony before this commission. mr. dulles. you identify these as pictures of mr. lane? mr. redlich. these are photographs of mark lane. mr. dulles. and these exhibits and were the exhibits which were presented to mrs. markham? mr. belin. i think the record should show how they were presented. they were clipped out so there was not any writing or anything to indicate whom they were pictures of on their face. mr. dulles. that is on the record. mrs. markham, there is a short question that congressman ford wanted to put to you. representative ford. what kind of eyesight do you have, mrs. markham? mrs. markham. i have always had good eyesight. representative ford. do you wear glasses? mrs. markham. no; i don't. representative ford. have your eyes tested recently? mrs. markham. no; i haven't. i have no cause to. representative ford. you have never worn glasses in your lifetime? mrs. markham. no. mr. dulles. are you farsighted, nearsighted, or neither, just good-sighted? mrs. markham. just good-sighted. i did a lot of writing and a cashier and everything. i see pretty good. representative ford. if you go to a movie can you see the picture easily and well? mrs. markham. oh, yes; yes, sir; real well. representative ford. you can see things at a distance quite well? mrs. markham. yes, sir. i have never had glasses. representative ford. thank you very much. testimony of mrs. barbara jeanette davis mr. ball. mrs. davis, you didn't get the notice through the mail asking you to appear here? mrs. davis. no, sir. mr. ball. we told you orally in washington, or in dallas last friday, didn't we? mrs. davis. yes, sir. mr. dulles. she has not been sworn. will you kindly raise your right hand? do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give to this commission is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mrs. davis. i do. mr. ball. mrs. davis, you didn't get a letter from the commission asking you to appear here? mrs. davis. no, sir. mr. ball. but when mr. belin and i were in dallas on friday of last week we asked you to appear? mrs. davis. on saturday. mr. ball. on saturday, was it? mrs. davis. yes. mr. ball. that is right. and you voluntarily agreed to come up here, didn't you? mrs. davis. that is right. mr. ball. without any notice from the commission? mrs. davis. that is right. mr. ball. where do you live? mr. dulles. may we thank you for that. mrs. davis. athens, tex. mr. ball. where do you live? mrs. davis. athens, tex. mr. ball. you are married, are you? mrs. davis. yes. mr. ball. you have some children? mrs. davis. two. mr. ball. what is your husband's name? mrs. davis. troy. mr. ball. troy davis? mrs. davis. troy lee davis. mr. ball. what is your business or what is his business? mrs. davis. he is a roofer. mr. ball. beg pardon? mrs. davis. he is a roofer. mr. ball. where were you born, mrs. davis? mrs. davis. athens. mr. ball. athens? mrs. davis. yes. mr. ball. live there all your life? mrs. davis. yes; part of it i have lived in dallas some. mr. ball. where did you go to school? mrs. davis. athens. mr. ball. how far through school did you go? mrs. davis. halfway through the th midterm. mr. ball. then did you get married? mrs. davis. yes. mr. ball. you were living in dallas on november , were you? mrs. davis. yes. mr. ball. what was your address there in dallas? mrs. davis. east th. mr. ball. who was living with you at that time? mrs. davis. you mean in the apartment or in the building? mr. ball. in the apartment with you. mrs. davis. just my husband and two children. mr. ball. you had a sister, did you? mrs. davis. sister-in-law. mr. ball. what is her name? mrs. davis. virginia. mr. ball. was she living there at the time, too? mrs. davis. they lived around the side of the apartment house. mr. ball. in the same building? mrs. davis. yes. mr. ball. that was your husband's sister? mrs. davis. no; it was my husband's brother's wife. mr. ball. husband's brother's wife. i see. mrs. davis. yes. mr. ball. i have got some pictures here so we will understand. i will show you exhibit . is the house in which you were living on november d shown in the picture? mrs. davis. here. mr. ball. it is the one on the corner? the southeast corner of th and patton, isn't it? mrs. davis. i don't know anything about that, but i know where it is. mr. ball. i will show you commission exhibit . is the house shown in that picture? mrs. davis. yes; sir. mr. ball. and i show you , is the house shown in that picture? mrs. davis. yes, sir. mr. ball. i am showing you and there is a lawn there, that is the lawn of what house? mrs. davis. of the house i lived in. mr. ball. the house you lived in. on that day did something unusual happen that you observed, on november d? mrs. davis. those gunshots. mr. ball. gunshots? where were you when you heard gunshots? mrs. davis. in bed. mr. dulles. did you say gunshot or gunshots? mrs. davis. shots. mr. dulles. plural? how many did you hear? mrs. davis. just two, they were pretty close together. mr. ball. you were lying on the bed. what did you do? mrs. davis. i got up, put my shoes on to see what it was. mr. ball. did you ever go outdoors? mrs. davis. at first, i didn't. mr. ball. when you went to the door, did you open the door? mrs. davis. i opened the door and held the screen opened. mr. ball. what did you see? mrs. davis. mrs. markham standing across the street over there, and she was standing over there and the man was coming across the yard. mr. ball. a man was coming across what yard? mrs. davis. my yard. mr. ball. and what did you see the man doing? mrs. davis. well, first off she went to screaming before i had paid too much attention to him, and pointing at him, and he was, what i thought, was emptying the gun. mr. ball. he had a gun in his hand? mrs. davis. yes. mr. ball. and he was emptying it? mrs. davis. it was open and he had his hands cocked like he was emptying it. mr. dulles. which hand did he have it? mrs. davis. right hand. mr. ball. to his left palm? mrs. davis. yes. mr. ball. did you see him throw anything away? mrs. davis. no. mr. ball. you didn't? mrs. davis. yes. mr. ball. what did you do next? mrs. davis. he looked at her first and looked at me and then smiled and went around the corner. mr. ball. was he running or walking? mrs. davis. he was walking at his normal pace. mr. ball. and he went around the corner? did he go on the sidewalk? mrs. davis. yes. he was on the sidewalk right beside the house. mr. ball. did he go, did he cut across your lawn at all? mrs. davis. yes. mr. ball. where? mrs. davis. he cut across the middle of the yard. mr. ball. here is a diagram, , this is --that is your home. mrs. davis. he came right across like this. mr. ball. came across like this? mrs. davis. ran beside the sidewalk. mr. ball. there is already a mark on there. mrs. davis. he left the sidewalk about here, just on the other side of this. mr. ball. well, mark on the picture now, photo which is commission exhibit , and you just take this and mark with it and show where he left the sidewalk and what course he took. mrs. davis. he was just parallel to the side of this and right around this little bush and around the corner. mr. ball. around the corner? mrs. davis. yes. mr. ball. the black mark from the sidewalk on marks the course that the man took? representative ford. could you tell us where you were standing when you saw him? mrs. davis. i was standing on the porch. mr. ball. put an "x" there. mrs. davis. i can't see the porch. the door is right between these two things here. mr. ball. these two things--what do you mean? mrs. davis. between the two posts. mr. ball. two posts? mrs. davis. yes. mr. ball. let's get a better view. mr. dulles. it seems to be the best. mr. ball. you are right. that is . now mark where he cut across on that with a line. mrs. davis. right across like this, only it would be on the other side of the bushes here. mr. ball. yes. and where were you? mrs. davis. standing right--here is the door right here. mr. ball. put an "x" there. that "x" is a mark to locate your position and we will give a symbol to it. "d." now, the line you have drawn from the sidewalk through the bushes is the course the man took. where was he when you saw him emptying his gun? mrs. davis. he was right here on the other side of this bush. mr. ball. draw a line through the course there. mrs. davis. just about along in here. mr. dulles. did you know at the time he was emptying his gun? mrs. davis. that is what i presumed because he had it open and was shaking it. mr. dulles. i see. just right there. mr. ball. in other words, there is a cross you make across the line that he took which marks the place where he was emptying the gun. mrs. davis. just about halfway there. mr. ball. mark it also on , . mrs. davis. not quite half, not quite to the bushes there. representative ford. mr. ball, even though she cannot pinpoint the point where she was standing because of the photograph, she might draw an arrow showing about where she was standing. mr. ball. show an arrow about where you were standing. mrs. davis. about there. mr. ball. that is , photo and commission exhibit . after the man left, what did you do, after he went out of sight what did you do? mrs. davis. i went back in and phoned the police. mr. ball. then what did you tell the police? mrs. davis. i just told them that a policeman had been shot. mr. ball. then what did you do? mrs. davis. i came back outside and walked down to where the policeman's car was out. mr. ball. did you see the policeman? mrs. davis. yes. mr. ball. where was he? mrs. davis. he was laying on the left-hand side of the car on the ground, by the left-hand fender. mr. ball. was he alive or what? mrs. davis. i don't know. mr. ball. did he talk? mrs. davis. no. mr. ball. you didn't know whether he was alive or dead? mrs. davis. no, sir; i didn't get that close. mr. ball. how long did you stay there? mrs. davis. not minutes, i would imagine, because the police cars started coming, so i went back to my yard. mr. ball. did you see a man coming and get the policeman's gun? mrs. davis. no, i didn't. mr. ball. did you later look in the bushes and find something? mrs. davis. yes; in the grass beside the house. mr. ball. the grass beside the house. what did you find? mrs. davis. we found one shell. mr. ball. one shell? mrs. davis. yes. mr. ball. and your sister-in-law, did your sister-in-law find something else? mrs. davis. she found one later in the afternoon. mr. ball. one, later? mrs. davis. yes, sir. mr. ball. can you show me on one of these pictures here where you found one shell? mrs. davis. under the window here. that would be the only one i could tell. mr. ball. the only one that shows, it is photo , it is commission exhibit . draw an arrow down. mrs. davis. right under that window there. mr. ball. under that window. the arrow which is marked "d- " shows the position where you found one shell. did you see your sister-in-law find the other shell? mrs. davis. yes. mr. ball. where was that found? mrs. davis. there is a little cement walk right here by her door, it was right there, not too far from there. mr. ball. could you draw an arrow down to show the approximate position? mrs. davis. it was almost in front of her door, there is a little cement porch to step up to her door. mr. ball. the arrow which we marked as "d- " marks the place where your sister-in-law found the second shell? mrs. davis. yes. mr. ball. you only found two shells, did you, you one and your sister-in-law one? mrs. davis. yes. mr. ball. what time of day did you find the one shell? mrs. davis. i don't know. this was probably an hour and a half, maybe hours, after the officer was shot. mr. ball. what time of day did your sister-in-law find her shell, find the shell that she found? mr. davis. somewhere around : , , somewhere in there. mr. ball. did you later go down to the police station? mrs. davis. yes, sir. mr. ball. were you shown a group of people in the police station and asked if you could identify the man? mrs. davis. yes. mr. ball. were you alone in that room when you were shown these people? mrs. davis. no, sir. mr. ball. who was with you? mrs. davis. my husband, my sister-in-law was with me, and some other men. mr. ball. that is your husband troy, your sister-in-law virginia davis, and yourself, and other men? mrs. davis. yes. mr. ball. did you know those men? mrs. davis. no, sir. mr. ball. were police officers there? mrs. davis. they were all in suits, some sat at the back of the room. mr. ball. when those--how many men were shown to you in this lineup? mrs. davis. four. mr. ball. were they of the same size or of different sizes? mrs. davis. most of them was about the same size. mr. ball. all white men, were they? mrs. davis. yes. mr. ball. did you recognize anyone in that room? mrs. davis. yes, sir. i recognized number . mr. ball. number you recognized? did you tell any policeman there anything after you recognized them? mrs. davis. i told the man who had brought us down there. mr. ball. what did you tell him? mrs. davis. that i thought number was the man that i saw. mr. ball. that you saw? mrs. davis. yes. mr. ball. by number , was the man you saw the man you saw doing what? mrs. davis. unloading the gun. mr. ball. and going across your yard? mrs. davis. yes, sir. mr. ball. that was about what time of day that you were at the lineup? mrs. davis. it was after , i am sure. mr. ball. after when? mrs. davis. after o'clock. mr. ball. on what day? mrs. davis. on friday, the same day. mr. ball. the same day? it was after o'clock on friday, the same day that you had seen the man unloading the gun? mrs. davis. yes, sir. mr. dulles. have you any way of fixing the time of when the man ran across your lawn, approximately? mrs. davis. no, sir; not exactly because i had laid down with the children and i didn't pay any attention to what time it was. representative ford. you saw him take the shells out of the gun? mrs. davis. no, sir; he was shaking them. representative ford. he was shaking them? mrs. davis. he was shaking them. i didn't see him actually use his hand to take them out. i mean he was sort of shaking them out. representative ford. did you find this one bullet at the point where you saw him shake the gun? mrs. davis. no, sir; it was around the side of the house. representative ford. about how many feet? mrs. davis. i don't know. not too far. representative ford. but he had moved from the one point to where you found the bullets? mrs. davis. yes, sir. representative ford. yes. mrs. davis. that is where they started looking for it. representative ford. i meant the shells rather than the bullets. mrs. davis. yes. mr. ball. was he dressed the same in the lineup as he was when you saw him running across the lawn? mrs. davis. all except he didn't have a black coat on when i saw him in the lineup. mr. ball. did he have a coat on when you saw him? mrs. davis. yes, sir. mr. ball. what color coat? mrs. davis. a dark coat. mr. ball. now, did you recognize him from his face or from his clothes when you saw him in the lineup? mrs. davis. well, i looked at his clothes and then his face from the side because i had seen him from a side view of him. i didn't see him fullface. mr. ball. now answer the question. did you recognize him from seeing his face or from his clothes? mrs. davis. from his face because that was all i was looking at. mr. ball. i see. now, when you heard the shots you were lying down, were you? mrs. davis. yes, sir. mr. ball. was anyone lying with you? mrs. davis. virginia was laying on the couch. mr. ball. in the same room with you? mrs. davis. yes, sir. mr. ball. did she go to the door with you when you went to the door? mrs. davis. she went right behind me. mr. ball. i have a jacket, i would like to show you, which is commission exhibit no. . does this look anything like the jacket that the man had on that was going across your lawn? mrs. davis. no, sir. mr. ball. how is it different? mrs. davis. well, it was dark and to me it looked like it was maybe a wool fabric, it looked sort of rough. like more of a sporting jacket. mr. ball. i show you a shirt which is commission exhibit no. . was that--does that shirt look anything like something he had on, that the man had on who went across your lawn? mrs. davis. i thought that the shirt he had on was lighter than that. mr. ball. i have no further questions. where was mrs. markham when you first saw her? mrs. davis. she was standing right here on this corner. mr. ball. that picture? mrs. davis. yes, sir. mr. ball. that picture that you refer to is photo number , commission exhibit . it is as shown on the corner here, as the woman who is shown in the corner? mrs. davis. that was her position. representative ford. do you wear glasses, mrs. davis? mrs. davis. no, sir. representative ford. have you had your eyes examined recently? mrs. davis. i believe it was in october when i applied for some driver's license. representative ford. in october of ? mrs. davis. yes. representative ford. you applied for a driver's license? mrs. davis. i believe it was the first--some time in october, i believe. representative ford. when you applied for a driver's license in texas you have to take an examination? mrs. davis. yes, sir. representative ford. and you did take one? mrs. davis. yes, sir. representative ford. did they recommend that you wear glasses? mrs. davis. no, sir. he said my eyes are all right. representative ford. he said your eyes were all right? mr. dulles. have you had any problems with the law at any time? mrs. davis. no, sir. mr. dulles. except for traffic violations? mrs. davis. no. mr. dulles. thank you. what is your husband's occupation? mrs. davis. he is a roofer. mr. dulles. what? mrs. davis. puts shingles and roofs on houses. mr. dulles. oh, yes, surely. mr. ball. mrs. davis, before you went down to look at the man at the police station at o'clock that night, had you seen television pictures of the man on television that he had been arrested? mrs. davis. as far as i can remember i don't remember seeing it because i was out in the yard all the time that was going on, and i don't believe the tv was on. mr. ball. before you saw the man in the lineup were you shown a picture of any man by a police officer? mrs. davis. no, sir. mr. ball. did you read a newspaper and see any pictures in a newspaper, picture of a man in the newspaper, before you went down there? mrs. davis. i don't really know. i couldn't be quite sure. i can't remember whether i did or not. mr. ball. do you take an evening or a morning paper? mrs. davis. we take an afternoon paper, we took an afternoon paper then. mr. ball. do you recall whether or not you did see a picture in the paper of the man? mrs. davis. i don't remember. i don't even remember whether i read it or not. there was so much excitement. mr. ball. when the man ran over the lawn, can you give me an estimate of how far away he was from you? mrs. davis. i can't. mr. ball. make a judgment about it as to this room. is it as far away from you to me? mrs. davis. it was about as far as here to the corner of the room out there, or just a little bit more, the far corner. representative ford. just a little less, did you say? mrs. davis. about like that. mr. belin. about seven or eight steps? mr. ball. about , feet, is that right? mrs. davis. i believe so. mr. ball. there is an affidavit that has been filed with us, a statement you made to the secret service men on the first of december . and in that affidavit, it says, after describing that "the man was on the sidewalk directly in front of me and shaking shells from a pistol into his hand as he walked,"--this says here, "the man was walking in a normal direction and walked across the corner of my property towards patton street." did you ever tell anyone that you saw the man walking in a normal direction? mrs. davis. no; i showed them where it was at, and they done that. mr. ball. i see. he was walking--what direction? mrs. davis. i didn't know. and so they figured that out. mr. ball. he was walking towards what street? mrs. davis. he was going down patton. mr. ball. towards what street? mrs. davis. jefferson. and so they figured it out for me. mr. ball. however--when--did you see the man after he went around the corner of your house? mrs. davis. no, sir. representative ford. did you see the taxicab parked on the corner? mrs. davis. yes, sir. mr. ball. let's go back to that afternoon, and you give your best memory of what the man looked like. don't think of what anybody has told you or what has happened in between. try to remember the vision you had of that man--the color of his hair, the size of his build and so forth. mrs. davis. you mean weight and like that? mr. ball. he was white, wasn't he? mrs. davis. yes, sir. mr. ball. light complexioned, or dark? mrs. davis. he was more light complected than he would have been dark. mr. ball. color of his hair? mrs. davis. it was either dark brown or black. it was just dark hair. mr. ball. and the color of his clothes? mrs. davis. well, i said he had on--he looked to me that he had on dark trousers, and it looked like a light colored shirt, with a dark coat over it. mr. ball. about what age would you say the man was? mrs. davis. i am not very good on that. i don't know. i would say he was about , . mr. ball. and what about his weight and height? mrs. davis. i---- mr. ball. you have to be general, i know that. mr. dulles. just your best recollection. if you haven't any, just tell us. mrs. davis. i just don't know. mr. ball. was he fat or slender? mrs. davis. he was slender built, and not very heavy. mr. ball. was he a tall man, or a real short man, or average? mrs. davis. oh, he wasn't especially tall. i would say he was about medium height or a little taller. i mean he wasn't extra tall. mr. ball. now, did you have some difficulty in identifying this no. man in the showup when you saw him? mrs. davis. well, they made us look at him a long time before they let us say anything. mr. ball. what about you? i am not talking about what you told them. what was your reaction when you saw this man? mrs. davis. well, i was pretty sure it was the same man i saw. when they made him turn sideways, i was positive that was the one i seen. mr. ball. i have no further questions. mr. belin. thank you, mrs. davis. mr. dulles. did your sister-in-law go with you to the lineup? mrs. davis. yes, sir. mr. dulles. did she make an identification? mrs. davis. yes, sir. mr. dulles. at the same time as you did? mrs. davis. yes, sir. mr. dulles. did you see her identification? mrs. davis. we didn't discuss it. mr. dulles. i mean, but after she had made it, did you see what identification she had made? mrs. davis. do you mean--i don't understand what you mean. mr. dulles. well, let me start over again. did you identify the man in the lineup before your sister-in-law? mrs. davis. yes, sir. mr. dulles. before your sister-in-law? mrs. davis. yes, sir; i was the first one. mr. dulles. all right. did your sister-in-law, to your knowledge, make the same identification? mrs. davis. yes, sir; she was there with me at the same time. mr. dulles. she was standing with you. and she saw the identification you had made? mrs. davis. all i done was just lean over and tell the man. mr. dulles. how did you make your identification? by pointing or holding up your fingers. mrs. davis. the man that was sitting next to me just asked me which one i thought it was, and i leaned over and told him. and then he leaned around me and asked her. mr. dulles. he did what? mrs. davis. he leaned around--he was behind me, and asked her. mr. dulles. i see. mrs. davis. i sort of set up where he could talk to her. mr. dulles. and did you identify the man by number or by pointing? mrs. davis. by number. mr. dulles. do you remember what number it was? mrs. davis. it was number . from the left. mr. dulles. have you any questions? representative ford. did you whisper this information to the man behind you? mrs. davis. well, we were all sitting in a line, and he was sitting on this side of me. he just leaned over and asked me which one i thought it was. representative ford. he was sitting on your right? mrs. davis. yes. representative ford. and you turned to your right and told him? mrs. davis. yes, sir. representative ford. and your sister-in-law was sitting on your left? mrs. davis. on the other side, yes. representative ford. when you spoke to him, you were speaking away from her? mrs. davis. yes, sir. representative ford. did you speak in a loud voice or a whisper? mrs. davis. no, sir; very quietly. representative ford. you think your sister-in-law heard you say the number? mrs. davis. i don't know. mr dulles. mr. attorney general, have you any questions? mr. carr. thank you, i do not. mr. murray. i have no questions. mr. belin. i think the record should show that although the witness did not receive the letter notifying her of our request for an appearance, we mailed it to her last known address at east th street, and the letter came back here. but the notice was mailed to the witness. it was just that it was not forwarded to where she now lives in athens. mr. dulles. you had moved from this house where these incidents took place? mrs. davis. yes. mr. dulles. off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. dulles. you are excused. thank you very much. mr. ball. our next witness is mr. ted callaway. testimony of ted callaway mr. dulles. mr. callaway, in the absence of the chief justice, i am presiding over the meeting of the commission this morning. would you kindly raise your right hand? do you swear that the testimony that you will give to this commission is the truth, the whole truth, so help you god? mr. callaway. yes, sir. mr. dulles. and nothing but the truth? mr. callaway. that is correct. mr. dulles. you may be seated. mr. ball, will you proceed? mr. ball. mr. callaway, we are investigating the assassination of president kennedy. we are going to ask you questions with regard to what you saw on the day of november , , in dallas. where do you live? mr. callaway. west eighth. mr. ball. what is your business? mr. callaway. car salesman. mr. ball. we would like to know something about your background. we ask most of the witnesses these questions. where were you born? mr. callaway. in dallas. mr. ball. were you raised in dallas? mr. callaway. yes, sir. mr. ball. went to school in dallas? mr. callaway. yes, sir. mr. ball. how old are you? mr. callaway. forty. mr. ball. how far through school did you go? mr. callaway. two years of college. mr. ball. what college? mr. callaway. s.m.u. mr. ball. and what did you do after you got out of college? mr. callaway. i worked part time as a clothing salesman downtown, and then my uncle was a painter, and i worked for him for awhile. then i went back in the marines for years. and i have been selling cars since ' . mr. ball. you are a used-car salesman? mr. callaway. yes. mr. ball. where were you employed--have you had any trouble with the police of any sort? mr. callaway. no. mr. ball. any difficulty at all in your life? mr. callaway. no, sir; never. mr. ball. you were discharged from the marines, were you? mr. callaway. yes, sir. mr. ball. what year? mr. callaway. . mr. ball. received an honorable discharge from the service? mr. callaway. yes, sir. mr. ball. on november , , where were you working? mr. callaway. at harris bros., auto sales. mr. ball. and what was your job? mr. callaway. i was used-car manager. mr. ball. now, harris bros. auto sales is located where? mr. callaway. east jefferson. mr. ball. where is that from th and patton? mr. callaway. just one block. mr. ball. one block south? mr. callaway. yes, sir. mr. ball. what corner? mr. callaway. it would be on the northeast corner. mr. ball. so that we can orient ourselves from th and patton--i have marked this diagram as commission exhibit . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. ball. now, mr. callaway, will you, on , take this and mark the location of the used car lot with an "x"? mr. callaway. all right, sir. right here. mr. ball. the "x" marks the position of the used-car lot? mr. callaway. yes, sir. mr. ball. now, mr. callaway, around : or so of that day, where were you? mr. callaway. i was standing on the front porch of our office. mr. ball. that is at east jefferson? mr. callaway. no; . mr. ball. i will show you a picture which we will mark as . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. ball. does this show a picture of the office? mr. callaway. yes, sir. that is it. mr. ball. now, you went down there one day last week to have some pictures taken. mr. callaway. yes, sir. mr. ball. did you attempt to stand in the same place you were at the time? mr. callaway. yes, sir. mr. ball. where you were standing november d around o'clock or so? mr. callaway. yes, sir. mr. ball. what did you hear at that time? mr. callaway. i heard what sounded to me like five pistol shots. mr. ball. five pistol shots? mr. callaway. five shots, yes, sir. mr. ball. from the sound, could you tell the source of the sound? mr. callaway. yes, sir, i could tell it was back of the lot over toward th street. mr. ball. and what did you do? mr. callaway. i ran out to the sidewalk on patton. mr. ball. and what did you see? mr. callaway. well, i could see--i was still--before i got to the sidewalk, i could see this taxicab parked down on patton. i saw the cabdriver beside his cab, and saw a man cutting from one side of the street to the other. that would be the east side of patton and over to the west side of patton. and he was running. and he had a gun in his hand, his right hand. mr. ball. and how was he holding the gun? mr. callaway. we used to say in the marine corps in a raised pistol position. mr. ball. that would be with the muzzle pointed upward, and with the arm bent at the elbow, is that right? mr. callaway. yes, sir; just like this. mr. ball. i have a picture here, . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. ball. when this picture was taken, did you try to represent the place you were standing when you saw the man? mr. callaway. yes, sir. mr. ball. how did you get there? mr. callaway. i ran. mr. ball. you ran from the place on the porch, is that right? mr. callaway. that is right. from right here, to there. mr. ball. now, you were at the place shown on , on the porch? mr. callaway. yes. mr. ball. and when you heard the shots, what did you do? mr. callaway. i just hurried--i don't know whether i really ran or not. but i hurried off the side of this porch and came to this position. mr. ball. all right. when you came to this position, you say you saw a taxicab? mr. dulles. where is this position on this chart? right here? mr. callaway. it would be about right here. i come off the porch here. mr. dulles. point ? mr. callaway. yes. mr. ball. you saw a taxicab where, on photo ? mr. callaway. right here. mr. ball. let's mark an arrow there, about where you saw the taxicab. the arrow marks the position of the taxicab. you saw a man? mr. callaway. yes, sir. mr. ball. he was crossing patton? mr. callaway. yes, sir. mr. ball. was that to the south or the north of the taxicab? closer to you than the taxicab? mr. callaway. yes. mr. ball. was he running or walking? mr. callaway. he was running. mr. ball. and where were you when you noticed he had the gun? or where was he when you noticed he had the gun? mr. callaway. when i first saw the gun, he had already crossed from here to here and was coming up this sidewalk. mr. ball. coming up the sidewalk on which side of patton? mr. callaway. west side of patton. mr. ball. and did he continue to come? mr. callaway. yes. mr. ball. and did you say anything to him? mr. callaway. yes. mr. ball. what did you say? mr. callaway. i hollered "hey, man, what the hell is going on?" when he was right along here. mr. ball. make a mark there where he was when you yelled, "what the hell is going on?" "x" marks the place where the man with the gun was when you yelled at him? mr. callaway. that is right. mr. dulles. would you mark it on this chart, too--exhibit ? mr. callaway. right along here--about . i guess. that would be it. you see, here is where i was, sir. and then he was right there when i hollered at him. mr. dulles. i don't get this. there is an alleyway there, apparently. mr. callaway. that is right. mr. dulles. but here is where the squad car was. mr. callaway. that is right. mr. dulles. and here is where the cab was. mr. callaway. that is right. mr. dulles. he had come all the way down? mr. callaway. he had come from there through this yard and cut behind this taxicab, over to this side of the street. mr. dulles. so he was there, then? mr. callaway. no, sir. i didn't holler at him until he came up to here. he was running up this sidewalk. mr. dulles. he was going south on patton? mr. callaway. on the west side of the street. representative ford. you saw him run from about the taxicab---- mr. callaway. across the street, up this sidewalk. mr. dulles. about how far is that? fifty feet or more? mr. callaway. oh, it is more than that. from here down to there, i think is about feet. mr. ball. mark on this diagram, which is , where the man was, and the course he took. mr. callaway. well, now, when i first saw him he was right here. then he came across here, down this way. mr. ball. down to the point where you spoke to him? mr. callaway. that is right. mr. ball. what did he do when you hollered at him? mr. callaway. he slowed his pace, almost halted for a minute. and he said something to me, which i could not understand. and then kind of shrugged his shoulders, and kept on going. mr. ball. show the course he took on the map, if you will. mr. callaway. all right. right on down here, and he cut through this front yard. mr. ball. and where was he when you last saw him? mr. callaway. right here. mr. ball. right at that point? mr. callaway. yes. mr. ball. now, the first "x" marks the position of the parking lot--we will mark that . the place of the taxicab we will mark as . the place where the man was with the gun when you yelled at him, we will mark that as . the last place you saw the man, that we will mark . mr. callaway. yes, sir. mr. ball. all right. now---- mr. dulles. may i ask what course he was taking when you last saw him? mr. callaway. he was going west on jefferson street. mr. dulles. west on jefferson street? mr. callaway. yes, sir. mr. ball. what did you do? mr. callaway. i hollered to this guy behind--b. d. searcy. mr. ball. what did you say to mr. searcy? mr. callaway. i told him to keep an eye on that guy, i says, "keep an eye on that guy, follow him. i am going to go down there and see what is going on." so i ran, a good hard run, from here down around the corner. mr. ball. th and patton? mr. callaway. yes. mr. ball. when you got there what did you see? mr. callaway. i saw a squad car, and by that time there was four or five people that had gathered, a couple of cars had stopped. then i saw--i went on up to the squad car and saw the police officer lying in the street. i see he had been shot in the head. so the first thing i did, i ran over to the squad car. i didn't know whether anybody reported it or not. so i got on the police radio and called them, and told them a man had been shot, told them the location, i thought the officer was dead. they said we know about it, stay off the air, so i went back. by this time an ambulance was coming. the officer was laying on his left side, his pistol was underneath him. i kind of rolled him over and took his gun out from under him. the people wonder whether he ever got his pistol out of his holster. he did. mr. ball. the pistol was out of the holster? mr. callaway. yes, sir; out of the holster, and it was unsnapped. it was on his right side. he was laying with the gun under him. mr. ball. what did you do? mr. callaway. i picked the gun up and laid it on the hood of the squad car, and then someone put it in the front seat of the squad car. then after i helped load officer tippit in the ambulance, i got the gun out of the car and told this cabdriver, i said, "you saw the guy didn't you?" he said, yes. i said, "if he is going up jefferson, he can't be very far. let's see if we can find him." so i went with scoggins in the taxicab, went up to th, crawford, from crawford up to jefferson, and down jefferson to beckley. and we turned on beckley. if we had kept going up jefferson, we probably--there is a good chance we would have seen him, because he was headed right towards the texas theatre. but then we circled around several blocks, and ended up coming back to where it happened. mr. ball. and the ambulance--had the ambulance been there by that time? mr. callaway. oh, yes; the ambulance already left before i ever left with the cabdriver. mr. ball. did you go down to the police station later? mr. callaway. that evening. mr. ball. what time? mr. callaway. i think it was around : or o'clock. i remember it was after dark. mr. ball. did you go down there alone? mr. callaway. no. i went with sam guinyard, a colored porter of ours. he saw him, also. (at this point, representative ford withdrew from the hearing room.) mr. callaway. we drove down. officer--detective jim leavelle met us, and took us into this room where they showed us the lineup. mr. ball. now, before you went down there, had you seen any newspaper accounts of this incident? mr. callaway. no, sir; i had been out there on the lot. i hadn't seen a newspaper, hadn't even heard a radio, really. mr. ball. had you seen any television? mr. callaway. no, sir. mr. ball. had you seen a picture of a man? mr. callaway. no. mr. ball. the officer show you any pictures? mr. callaway. no, sir. mr. ball. you went into a police lineup, in a room where they had a lineup of men? mr. callaway. yes. mr. ball. how many? mr. callaway. four. mr. ball. and were they all the same size, or different sizes? mr. callaway. they were about the same build, but the man that i identified was the shortest one of the bunch. mr. ball. were they anywhere near the same age? mr. callaway. they were about the same age, yes, sir. they looked--you know. mr. ball. and you say you identified a man. how did you do that? mr. callaway. well---- mr. ball. tell us what happened. mr. callaway. we first went into the room. there was jim leavelle, the detective, sam guinyard, and then this busdriver and myself. we waited down there for probably or minutes. and jim told us, "when i show you these guys, be sure, take your time, see if you can make a positive identification." mr. ball. had you known him before? mr. callaway. no. and he said, "we want to be sure, we want to try to wrap him up real tight on killing this officer. we think he is the same one that shot the president. but if we can wrap him up tight on killing this officer, we have got him." so they brought four men in. i stepped to the back of the room, so i could kind of see him from the same distance which i had seen him before. and when he came out, i knew him. mr. ball. you mean he looked like the same man? mr. callaway. yes. mr. ball. about what distance was he away from you--the closest that he ever was to you? mr. callaway. about feet. mr. ball. you measured that, did you? mr. callaway. yes, sir. mr. ball. last saturday morning? mr. callaway. yes, sir. mr. ball. measured it with a tape measure? mr. callaway. yes, sir. mr. ball. did he have the same clothes on in the lineup--did the man have the same clothes? mr. callaway. he had the same trousers and shirt, but he didn't have his jacket on. he had ditched his jacket. mr. ball. what kind--when you talked to the police officers before you saw this man, did you give them a description of the clothing he had on? mr. callaway. yes, sir. mr. ball. what did you tell them you saw? mr. callaway. i told them he had some dark trousers and a light tannish gray windbreaker jacket, and i told him that he was fair complexion, dark hair. mr. ball. tell them the size? mr. callaway. yes; i told them--i think i told them about ' ". mr. dulles. did you see his front face at any time, or did you only have a side view of him? mr. callaway. he looked right at me, sir. when i called to him, he looked right at me. mr. dulles. you saw front face? mr. callaway. yes. mr. ball. i have a jacket here--commission's exhibit no. . does this look anything like the jacket that the man had on that you saw across the street with a gun? mr. callaway. yes; it sure does. yes, that is the same type jacket. actually, i thought it had a little more tan to it. mr. ball. same type? mr. callaway. yes. mr. ball. i show you a shirt, . does it look anything like the shirt he had on under the jacket? mr. callaway. sir, when i saw him he didn't have--i couldn't see this shirt. i saw--he had it open. that shirt was open, and i could see his white t-shirt underneath. mr. ball. he had a white t-shirt underneath? mr. callaway. yes. that is the shirt he had on in the lineup that night. mr. ball. was he fat or thin? mr. callaway. he was just---- mr. ball. i mean the man you saw across the street? mr. callaway. just a nice athletic type size boy, i mean. neither fat nor thin. mr. ball. what did you estimate his weight when you talked to the officer before the lineup? mr. callaway. i told him it looked to me like around pounds. mr. dulles. how fast was he going when you hailed him? mr. callaway. just a good steady trot, not real fast. mr. dulles. he was not walking and not running--it was a trot? mr. callaway. a trot; yes, sir. mr. dulles. he stopped? mr. callaway. almost. he slowed down, like a guy is trotting along, and he almost stopped, and kept going. mr. dulles. and he looked at you? mr. callaway. yes, sir. mr. dulles. did he say anything? mr. callaway. yes, sir; he said something, but i could not understand it. mr. dulles. you could not understand what he said? mr. callaway. that is right; yes, sir. mr. dulles. and then did he resume his progress at a trot? mr. callaway. yes, sir. mr. ball. did you ever ask searcy if he followed him? mr. callaway. he didn't follow him. he said something about "follow him, hell. that man will kill you. he has a gun." so instead of following him, he went back over and got behind the office building. mr. dulles. did he see him at any time? mr. callaway. yes; he saw him the same time i did; yes, sir. i never could figure out why he didn't just follow that man. you could follow yards behind him and keep a guy in sight. chances are you wouldn't get killed yards away. mr. dulles. had you had previous military service? mr. callaway. yes, sir; i was in the marine corps years, world war ii, and during korea. mr. dulles. did you ever tangle with the law in any way? mr. callaway. no, sir. mr. dulles. what years were you in the marine corps? mr. callaway. through ' , and then ' through ' . mr. dulles. were you in korea? mr. callaway. no, sir; i didn't go to korea. i was at camp pendleton as a troop trainer. mr. dulles. off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. dulles. back on the record. mr. ball. i would like to offer to exhibit , inclusive. mr. dulles. can you tell me what the numbers are? mr. ball. , , and . mr. dulles. exhibits , , and previously identified will now be admitted in evidence. (the documents heretofore marked for identification as commission exhibits nos. through were received in evidence.) mr. dulles. thank you very much. we appreciate your coming. (whereupon, at : p.m., the president's commission recessed.) _monday, march , _ testimony of dr. charles james carrico and dr. malcolm oliver perry the president's commission met at : a.m. on march , , at maryland avenue ne., washington, d.c. present were chief justice earl warren, chairman; representative hale boggs, representative gerald r. ford, john j. mccloy, and allen w. dulles, members. also present were arlen specter, assistant counsel; charles murray, observer; and dean robert g. storey, special counsel to the attorney general of texas. testimony of dr. charles james carrico the chairman. all right, dr. carrico, you know the reason why we are here, what we are investigating. if you will raise your right hand, please, and be sworn, sir. you solemnly swear the testimony you give before this commission shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you god? dr. carrico. i do. the chairman. mr. specter will conduct the examination. mr. specter. dr. carrico, will you state your full name for the record please? dr. carrico. charles james carrico. mr. specter. and what is your address, dr. carrico? dr. carrico. home address? mr. specter. please. dr. carrico. it is ridgwood in irving. mr. specter. what is your professional address? dr. carrico. parkland memorial hospital in dallas, tex. mr. specter. how old are you, sir? dr. carrico. . mr. specter. will you outline briefly your educational background? dr. carrico. i attended grade school and high school in denton, tex.; received a bachelor of science in chemistry from north texas state university in ; received my m.d. from the university of texas southwestern medical school in ; served an internship at parkland memorial hospital from to ; and then did a year of fellowship at the surgery department at southwestern medical school, followed by my surgery residency at parkland hospital. mr. specter. are you duly licensed to practice medicine in the state of texas, dr. carrico? dr. carrico. yes; i am. mr. specter. are you board certified at the present time or are you working toward the board certification in surgery? dr. carrico. i am engaged in surgery residency which will qualify me for board certification. mr. specter. what experience have you had, if any, with gunshot wounds? dr. carrico. in the emergency room at parkland, during my residence school and internship and residency, we have seen a fair number of gunshot wounds. mr. specter. could you approximate the number of gunshot wounds you have treated in the course of those duties? dr. carrico. in all probably , , something in that range. mr. specter. what were your duties at parkland memorial hospital on november , ? dr. carrico. at that time i was assigned to the elective surgery service, which is the general surgery service treating the usual surgical cases. i was in the emergency room evaluating some patient for admission. mr. specter. what were you doing specifically in the neighborhood of : p.m. on that day? dr. carrico. at that time i had been called to the emergency room to evaluate a patient for admission to the hospital. mr. specter. were you notified that an emergency case involving president kennedy was en route to the hospital? dr. carrico. yes, sir. mr. specter. what is your best estimate as to the time that you were notified that president kennedy was en route to the hospital? dr. carrico. shortly after : is the best i can do. mr. specter. how long thereafter was it that he actually did arrive at parkland, to the best of your recollection? dr. carrico. within minutes approximately. mr. specter. and precisely where were you at parkland when you first observed him? dr. carrico. when i first observed him i was in the emergency room, seeing--actually governor connally had been brought in first, as you know, dr. dulany and i had gone to care for governor connally and when the president was brought in i left governor connally and went to care for the president. mr. specter. will you describe briefly the physical layout of parkland with respect to the point where emergency cases are brought up to the building and the general layout of the building into the emergency room. dr. carrico. the emergency entrance is at the back of the building. there is an ambulance ramp. then immediately adjacent to the ambulance ramp are, of course, double doors, swinging doors and a corridor which is approximately feet long and empties directly into the emergency room. then inside the emergency room are several areas, the surgical area consists of about eight booths for treating, examination and treatment of patients, and four large emergency operating rooms. two of these are specifically set aside for acutely ill, severely ill, patients and these are referred to as trauma rooms. mr. specter. and were these trauma rooms used in connection with the treatment of president kennedy and governor connally? dr. carrico. yes, sir. mr. specter. what precisely was the point where you met at his arrival? dr. carrico. the president was being wheeled into trauma room one when i saw him. mr. specter. who else, if anyone, was present at that time? dr. carrico. at that time, dr. don curtis, martin white. the chairman. was he a doctor, too? dr. carrico. yes, sir; miss bowron. mr. specter. who is miss bowron? dr. carrico. she is one of the nurses on duty at the emergency room. mr. specter. who was the first doctor to actually see the president? dr. carrico. i was. mr. specter. now, what did you observe as to the condition of president kennedy when you first saw him? dr. carrico. he was on an ambulance cart, emergency cart, rather. his color was blue white, ashen. he had slow agonal respiration, spasmodic respirations without any coordination. he was making no voluntary movements. his eyes were open, pupils were seen to be dilated and later were seen not to react to light. this was the initial impression. mr. specter. what was the status of his pulse at the time of arrival? dr. carrico. he had no palpable pulse. mr. specter. and was he making any movements at the time of arrival? dr. carrico. no voluntary movements, only the spasmodic respirations. mr. specter. was any heartbeat noted at his arrival? dr. carrico. after these initial observations we opened his shirt, coat, listened very briefly to his chest, heard a few sounds which we felt to be heartbeats and then proceeded with the remainder of the examination. mr. specter. in your opinion was president kennedy alive or dead on his arrival at parkland. dr. carrico. from a medical standpoint i suppose he was still alive in that he did still have a heartbeat? mr. specter. what action, if any, was taken with respect to the removal of president kennedy's clothing? dr. carrico. as i said after i had opened his shirt and coat, i proceeded with the examination and the nurses removed his clothing as is the usual procedure. mr. specter. was president kennedy wearing a back brace? dr. carrico. yes; he was. mr. specter. would you describe as precisely as you can that back brace? dr. carrico. as i recall, this was a white cotton or some sort of fiber standard brace with stays and corset, in a corset-type arrangement and buckles. mr. specter. how far up on his body did it come? dr. carrico. just below his umbilicus, as i recall. mr. specter. how far down on his body did it go? dr. carrico. i did not examine below his belt at that time. mr. specter. did you at any time examine below his belt? dr. carrico. i did not; no, sir. mr. specter. do you know if anyone else did? dr. carrico. not in a formal manner. mr. specter. what action did you take by way of treating president kennedy on his arrival? dr. carrico. after what we have described we completed an initial emergency examination, which consisted of, as we have already said, his color, his pulse, we felt his back, determined there were no large wounds which would be an immediate threat to life there. looked very briefly at the head wound and then because of his inadequate respirations inserted an endotracheal tube to attempt to support these respirations. mr. specter. specifically what did you do with respect to the back, dr. carrico? dr. carrico. this is a routine examination of critically ill patients where you haven't got time to examine him fully. i just placed my hands just above the belt, but in this case just above the brace, and ran my hands up his back. mr. specter. to what point on his body? dr. carrico. all the way up to his neck very briefly. mr. specter. what did you feel by that? dr. carrico. i felt nothing other than the blood and debris. there was no large wound there. mr. specter. what source did you attribute the blood to at that time? dr. carrico. as it could have come from the head wound, and it certainly could have been a back wound, but there was no way to tell whether this blood would have come from a back wound and not from his head. mr. specter. what action did you next take then? dr. carrico. at that time the endotracheal tube was inserted, using a curved laryngoscopic blade, inserting an endotracheal tube, it was seen there were some contusions, hematoma to the right of the larynx, with a minimal deviation of the larynx to the left, and ragged tissue below indicating tracheal injury. the tube was inserted past this injury, and the cuff inflater was connected to a bennett machine which is a respiratory assistor using positive pressure. mr. specter. will you describe briefly what you mean in lay terms by a cuffed endotracheal tube? dr. carrico. this is a plastic tube which is inserted into the trachea, into the windpipe, to allow an adequate airway, adequate breathing. the cuff is a small latex cuff which should prevent leakage of air around the tube, thus insuring an adequate airway. mr. specter. will you continue, then, to describe what efforts you made to revive the president. dr. carrico. after the endotracheal tube was inserted and connected, i listened briefly to his chest, respirations were better but still inadequate. dr. perry arrived, and because of the inadequate respirations the presence of a tracheal injury, advised that the chest tube was to be inserted, this was done by some of the other physicians in the room. at the same time we had been getting the airway inserted dr. curtis and dr. white were doing a cutdown, venous section using polyethylene catheters through which fluid, medicine and blood could be administered. mr. specter. will you describe in lay language what you mean by a cutdown in relationship to what they did in this case? dr. carrico. this was a small incision over his ankle and a tube was inserted into one of his veins through which blood could be given, fluid. mr. specter. is the general purpose of that to maintain a circulatory system? dr. carrico. right. mr. specter. in wounded parties? dr. carrico. yes. (at this point, representative ford entered the hearing room.) mr. specter. would you now proceed again to describe what else was done for the president in an effort to save his life? dr. carrico. sure. dr. perry then took over supervision and treatment, and the chest tubes were inserted, another cutdown was done by dr. jones on the president's arm. fluid, as i said, was given, blood was given, hydrocortisone was given. dr. clark, the chief neurosurgeon, dr. bashour, cardiologist, was there or arrived, and a cardiac monitor was attached and although i never saw any electro-activity, dr. clark said there was some electrical activity of the heart which means he was still trying to---- mr. specter. what is dr. clark's position in the hospital? dr. carrico. he is chief of the neurosurgery department and professor of the neurosurgery. mr. specter. dr. carrico, will you continue to tell us then what treatment you rendered the president? dr. carrico. when this electrocardiac activity ceased, close cardiac massage was begun. using this, and fluids and airway we were able to maintain fairly good color, apparently fairly good peripheral circulation as monitored by carotid and radial pulses for a period of time. these efforts were abandoned when it was determined by dr. clark that there was no continued cardiac response. there was no cerebral response, that is the pupils remained dilated and fixed; there was evidence of anoxia. mr. specter. will you describe in lay language what anoxia means? dr. carrico. no oxygen. mr. specter. was cardiac massage applied in this situation? dr. carrico. yes, sir; it was, excellent cardiac massage. mr. specter. were bloods administered to the president? dr. carrico. yes, sir. (at this point, mr. dulles entered the hearing room.) mr. specter. dr. carrico, was any action taken with respect to the adrenalin insufficiency of president kennedy? dr. carrico. yes, sir; he was given milligrams of hydrocortisone which is an adrenal hormone. mr. specter. and what was the reason for the administration of that drug? dr. carrico. it was recalled that the president had been said to have adrenal insufficiency. mr. specter. now, at what time was the death of the president pronounced, doctor? dr. carrico. at o'clock. mr. specter. who pronounced the death of the president? dr. carrico. dr. clark, i believe. mr. specter. was that a precise time fixed or a general time fixed for the point of death? dr. carrico. this was a general time, sir. mr. specter. what, in your opinion, was the cause of death? dr. carrico. the head wound, the head injury. mr. specter. will you describe as specifically as you can the head wound which you have already mentioned briefly? dr. carrico. sure. this was a - by -cm defect in the posterior skull, the occipital region. there was an absence of the calvarium or skull in this area, with shredded tissue, brain tissue present and initially considerable slow oozing. then after we established some circulation there was more profuse bleeding from this wound. mr. specter. was any other wound observed on the head in addition to this large opening where the skull was absent? dr. carrico. no other wound on the head. mr. specter. did you have any opportunity specifically to look for a small wound which was below the large opening of the skull on the right side of the head? dr. carrico. no, sir; at least initially there was no time to examine the patient completely for all small wounds. as we said before, this was an acutely ill patient and all we had time to do was to determine what things were life-threatening right then and attempt to resuscitate him and after which a more complete examination would be carried out and we didn't have time to examine for other wounds. mr. specter. was such a more complete examination ever carried out by the doctors in parkland? dr. carrico. no, sir; not in my presence. mr. specter. why not? dr. carrico. as we said initially this was an acute emergency situation and there was not time initially and when the cardiac massage was done this prevented any further examination during this time this was being done. after the president was pronounced dead his wife was there, he was the president, and we felt certainly that complete examination would be carried out and no one had the heart, i believe, to examine him then. mr. specter. will you describe, as specifically as you can then, the neck wounds which you heretofore mentioned briefly? dr. carrico. there was a small wound, - to -mm. in size, located in the lower third of the neck, below the thyroid cartilage, the adams apple. mr. dulles. will you show us about where it was? dr. carrico. just about where your tie would be. mr. dulles. where did it enter? dr. carrico. it entered? mr. dulles. yes. dr. carrico. at the time we did not know---- mr. dulles. i see. dr. carrico. the entrance. all we knew this was a small wound here. mr. dulles. i see. and you put your hand right above where your tie is? dr. carrico. yes, sir; just where the tie---- mr. dulles. a little bit to the left. dr. carrico. to the right. mr. dulles. yes; to the right. dr. carrico. yes. and this wound was fairly round, had no jagged edges, no evidence of powder burns, and so forth. representative ford. no evidence of powder burns? dr. carrico. so far as i know. representative ford. in the front? dr. carrico. yes. mr. specter. have you now described that wound as specifically as you can based upon your observations at the time? dr. carrico. i believe so. mr. specter. and your recollection at the time of those observations? dr. carrico. yes; an even round wound. mr. dulles. you felt this wound in the neck was not a fatal wound? dr. carrico. that is right. mr. specter. that is, absent the head wound, would the president have survived the wound which was present on his neck? dr. carrico. i think very likely he would have. mr. specter. based on your observations on the neck wound alone did you have a sufficient basis to form an opinion as to whether it was an entrance or an exit wound? dr. carrico. no, sir; we did not. not having completely evaluated all the wounds, traced out the course of the bullets, this wound would have been compatible with either entrance or exit wound depending upon the size, the velocity, the tissue structure and so forth. mr. specter. permit me to add some facts which i shall ask you to assume as being true for purposes of having you express an opinion. first of all, assume that the president was struck by a . mm. copper-jacketed bullet from a rifle having a muzzle velocity of approximately , feet per second at a time when the president was approximately to feet from the weapon, with the president being struck from the rear at a downward angle of approximately degrees, being struck on the upper right posterior thorax just above the upper border of the scapula centimeters from the tip of the right acromion process and centimeters below the tip of the right mastoid process. assume further that the missile passed through the body of the president striking no bones, traversing the neck and sliding between the large muscles in the posterior aspect of the president's body through a fascia channel without violating the pleural cavity, but bruising only the apex of the right pleural cavity and bruising the most apical portion of the right lung, then causing a hematoma to the right of the larynx which you have described, and creating a jagged wound in the trachea, then exiting precisely at the point where you observe the puncture wound to exist. now based on those facts was the appearance of the wound in your opinion consistent with being an exit wound? dr. carrico. it certainly was. it could have been under the circumstances. mr. specter. and assuming that all the facts which i have given you to be true, do you have an opinion with a reasonable degree of medical certainty as to whether, in fact, the wound was an entrance wound or an exit wound? dr. carrico. with those facts and the fact as i understand it no other bullet was found this would be, this was, i believe, was an exit wound. mr. specter. were any bullets found in the president's body by the doctors at parkland? dr. carrico. no, sir. mr. specter. was the president's clothing ever examined by you, dr. carrico? dr. carrico. no, sir; it was not. mr. specter. what was the reason for no examination of the clothing? dr. carrico. again in the emergency situation the nurses removed the clothing after we had initially unbuttoned enough to get a look at him, at his chest, and as the routine is set up, the nurses remove the clothing and we just don't take time to look at it. mr. specter. was the president's body then ever turned over at any point by you or any of the other doctors at parkland? dr. carrico. no, sir. mr. specter. was president kennedy lying on the emergency stretcher from the time he was brought into trauma room one until the treatment at parkland hospital was concluded? dr. carrico. yes; he was. mr. specter. at what time was that treatment concluded, to the best of your recollection? dr. carrico. at about o'clock. mr. specter. at approximately what time did you leave the trauma room where the president was brought? dr. carrico. i left right at one when we decided that he was dead. mr. specter. and did the other doctors leave at the same time or did any remain in the trauma room? dr. carrico. i left before some of the other doctors, i do not remember specifically who was there. i believe dr. baxter was, dr. jenkins was still there, i believe. and i think dr. perry was. mr. specter. you have described a number of doctors in the course of your testimony up to this point. would you state what other doctors were present during the time the president was treated, to the best of your recollection? dr. carrico. well, i have already mentioned dr. don curtis, the surgery resident; martin white, an interne; dr. perry was there, dr. baxter, dr. mcclelland, a member of the surgery staff; dr. ronald jones, chief surgery resident; dr. jenkins, chief of anesthesia; several other physicians whose names i can't remember at the present. admiral burkley, i believe was his name, the president's physician, was there as soon as he got to the hospital. mr. specter. what is your view, dr. carrico, as to how many bullets struck the president? dr. carrico. at the time of the initial examination i really had no view. in view of what we have been told by you, and the commission, two bullets would be my opinion. mr. specter. based on the additional facts which i have asked you to assume---- dr. carrico. yes, sir. mr. specter. and also based on the autopsy report from bethesda---- dr. carrico. right. mr. specter. which was made available to you by me. dr. carrico. right. mr. specter. now, who, if any one, has talked to you representing the federal government in connection with the treatment which you assisted in rendering president kennedy at parkland on november ? dr. carrico. we have talked to some representatives of the secret service, whose names i do not remember. mr. specter. on how many occasions, if there was more than one? dr. carrico. two occasions, a fairly long interview shortly after the president's death, and then approximately a month or so afterwards a very short interview. representative ford. when you say shortly after the president's death, you mean that day? dr. carrico. no, sir. within a week maybe. mr. specter. and what was the substance of the first interview with the secret service which you have described as occurring within week? dr. carrico. this was a meeting in dr. shires' office, dr. shires, dr. perry, dr. mcclelland and myself, and two representatives of the secret service in which we went over the treatment. they discussed the autopsy findings as i recall it, with dr. shires, and reviewed the treatment with him, essentially. mr. specter. and what questions were you asked specifically at that time, if any? dr. carrico. i don't recall any specific questions i was asked. in general, i was asked some questions pertaining to his treatment, to the wounds, what i thought they were, and et cetera. mr. specter. what opinions did you express at that time? dr. carrico. again, i said that on the basis of our initial examination, this wound in his neck could have been either an entrance or exit wound, which was what they were most concerned about, and assuming there was a wound in the back, somewhere similar to what you have described that this certainly would be compatible with an exit wound. mr. specter. were your statements at that time different in any respect with the testimony which you have given here this morning? dr. carrico. not that i recall. mr. specter. were your views at that time consistent with the findings in the autopsy report, or did they vary in any way from the findings in that report? dr. carrico. as i recall, the autopsy report is exactly as i remember it. mr. specter. were your opinions at that time consistent with the findings of the autopsy report? dr. carrico. yes. mr. specter. will you identify dr. shires for the record, please? dr. carrico. dr. shires is chief of the surgery service at parkland, and chairman of the department of surgery at southwestern medical school. mr. specter. now, approximately when, to the best of your recollection, did the second interview occur with the secret service? dr. carrico. this was some time in february, probably about the middle of february, and the interview consisted of the agent asking me if i had any further information. i said i did not. mr. specter. was that the total context of the interview? dr. carrico. yes, sir. mr. specter. now, did i interview you and take your deposition in dallas, tex., last wednesday? dr. carrico. yes, sir. mr. specter. and has that deposition transcript been made available to you this morning? dr. carrico. it has. mr. specter. and were the views you expressed to me in our conversation before the deposition and on the record during the course of the deposition different in any way with the testimony which you have provided here this morning? dr. carrico. no, sir; they were not. mr. specter. dr. carrico, have you changed your opinion in any way concerning your observations or conclusions about the situation with respect to president kennedy at any time since november , ? dr. carrico. no. mr. specter. do you have any notes or writings of any sort in your possession concerning your participation in the treatment of president kennedy? dr. carrico. none other than the letter to my children i mentioned to you. mr. specter. will you state briefly the general nature of that for the commission here today, please. dr. carrico. this is just a letter written to my children to be read by them later, saying what happened, how i felt about it. and maybe why it happened, and maybe it would do them some good later. mr. specter. did you also make a written report which was made a part of the records of parkland hospital which you have identified for the record during the deposition proceeding? dr. carrico. yes; i did. mr. specter. do those constitute the total of the writings which you made concerning your participation in the treatment of the president? dr. carrico. right. mr. dulles. you spoke of a letter to your children. i don't want to invade your privacy in this respect in any way, but is there anything in that letter that you think would bear on our considerations here by this commission? dr. carrico. no; i don't believe so. this thing doesn't mention the treatment other than to say probably by the time they read the letter it will be archaic. mr. dulles. you spoke about the causes of it all, i don't know whether---- dr. carrico. just a little homespun philosophy. i just said that there was a lot of extremism both in dallas and in the nation as a whole, and in an attitude of extremism a warped mind can flourish much better than in a more stable atmosphere. mr. dulles. thank you. mr. specter. dr. carrico, was the nature of the treatment affected, in your opinion, in any way by the fact that you were working on the president of the united states? dr. carrico. i don't believe so, sir. we have seen a large number of acutely injured people, and acutely ill people, and the treatment has been carried out enough that this is almost reflex, if you will. certainly everyone was emotionally affected. i think, if anything, the emotional aspect made us think faster, work faster and better. mr. specter. do you have anything to add which you think would be helpful to the commission in its inquiry on the assassination of president kennedy? dr. carrico. no, sir. mr. specter. those conclude my questions, mr. chief justice. the chairman. mr. dulles, have you any questions to ask of the doctor? mr. dulles. looking back on it, do you think it was probable that death followed almost immediately after this shot in the head? dr. carrico. yes, sir; as i said---- mr. dulles. i was absent, i am sorry, at that time. dr. carrico. yes, sir. medically, i suppose you would have to say he was alive when he came to parkland. from a practical standpoint, i think he was dead then. the chairman. congressman ford? representative ford. when did you say that he arrived, when you first started working on the president? dr. carrico. it would only be a guess. probably about : . it was about : when i got in the emergency room, and i was there or minutes when we were called, and he was there within or minutes. representative ford. so approximately from : until the president was examined and treatment was given by you and others? dr. carrico. yes. representative ford. have you read and analyzed the autopsy performed by the authorities at bethesda? dr. carrico. i have not read it carefully. i have seen it. mr. specter showed me parts of it, and i had seen a copy of it earlier, briefly. representative ford. is there anything in it that you have read that would be in conflict with your observation? dr. carrico. nothing at all in conflict. it certainly adds to the observations that we made. representative ford. have you been interviewed by the press and, if so, when? dr. carrico. i think i have talked to the press twice. mr. burrus, a reporter for the dallas times herald, talked to me about minutes, probably or days after the president's death, and then a reporter from time called about or weeks after the president's death, and i talked to him for a very few minutes. representative ford. did you make any statements in either of these interviews that are different from the observations you have made here this morning? dr. carrico. not that i recall. representative ford. that is all. mr. dulles. mr. chief justice, could i--off the record. (discussion off the record.) the chairman. well, doctor, thank you very much. we appreciate your help. dr. carrico. certainly. glad to be here. testimony of dr. malcolm perry the chairman. dr. perry, will you be sworn now, please? would you raise your right hand and be sworn, please? do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before the commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? dr. perry. i do. the chairman. will you be seated, please? mr. specter will conduct the examination. mr. specter. will you state your full name for the record, please? dr. perry. malcolm oliver perry. mr. specter. what is your residence address? dr. perry. parkland, dallas, tex. mr. specter. your professional address? dr. perry. harley hines boulevard. mr. specter. is that the address of parkland memorial hospital? dr. perry. that is the address of the university of texas southwestern medical school. mr. specter. is that situated immediately adjacent to parkland memorial hospital? dr. perry. that is correct. mr. specter. would you state your age, sir? dr. perry. . mr. specter. what is your profession? dr. perry. i am a physician and surgeon. mr. specter. were you duly licensed to practice medicine by the state of texas? dr. perry. yes. mr. specter. would you outline briefly your educational background, please? dr. perry. after graduation from plano high school in , i attended the university of texas and was duly graduated there in january of with a degree of bachelor of arts. i subsequently graduated from the university of texas southwestern medical school in with a degree of doctor of medicine. i served an internship of months at letterman hospital in san francisco, and after more years in the air force i returned to parkland for a -year residency in general surgery. i completed that in---- mr. dulles. where did you serve in the air force, by the way? dr. perry. i was in spokane, wash., geiger field. at the completion of my surgery residency in june of , i was appointed an instructor in surgery at the southwestern medical school. but in september , i returned to the university of california at san francisco to spend a year in vascular surgery. during that time, i took and passed my boards for the certification for the american board of surgery. i returned to parkland hospital and southwestern in september of , was appointed an assistant professor of surgery, attending surgeon and vascular consultant for parkland hospital and john smith hospital in fort worth. mr. specter. what experience have you had, dr. perry, if any, in gunshot wounds? dr. perry. during my period in medical school and my residency, i have seen a large number, from to . mr. specter. what were your duties at parkland memorial hospital, if any, on november d, ? dr. perry. on that day i had come over from the medical school for the usual o'clock rounds with the residents, and dr. ronald jones and i, he being chief surgical resident, were having dinner in the main dining room there in the hospital. mr. specter. will you describe how you happened to be called in to render assistance to president kennedy? dr. perry. somewhere around : , and i cannot give you the time accurately since i did not look at my watch in that particular instant, an emergency page was put in for dr. tom shires, who is chief of the emergency surgical service in parkland. i knew he was in galveston attending a meeting and giving a paper, and i asked dr. jones to pick up the page to see if he or i could be of assistance. the chairman. doctor, at this time i must leave for a session at the supreme court, and the hearing will continue. congressman ford, i am going to ask you if you will preside in my absence. if you are obliged to go to the congress, commissioner dulles will preside, and i will be available as soon as the court session is over to be here with you. (at this point, mr. warren withdrew from the hearing room.) representative ford. will you proceed, please? mr. specter. what action did you take after learning of the emergency call, dr. perry? dr. perry. the emergency room is one flight of stairs down from the main dining cafeteria, so dr. jones and i went immediately to the emergency room to render what assistance we could. representative ford. may i ask this: in the confirmation of the page call, was it told to you that the president was the patient involved? dr. perry. it was told to dr. jones, who picked up the page, that president kennedy had been shot and was being brought to parkland. we went down immediately to the emergency room to await his arrival. however, he was there when we reached it. mr. specter. who else was present at the time you arrived on the scene with the president? dr. perry. when dr. jones and i entered the emergency room, the place was filled with people, most of them officers and, apparently, attendants to the presidential procession. dr. carrico was in attendance with the president in trauma room no. when i walked in. there were several other people there. mrs. kennedy was there with some gentleman whom i didn't know. i have the impression there was another physician in the room, but i cannot recall at this time who it was. there were several nurses there. mr. specter. were any other doctors present besides dr. carrico? dr. perry. i think there was another doctor present, but i don't know who it was, i don't recall. mr. dulles. can i ask a question here, mr. specter? mr. specter. certainly. mr. dulles. what is the procedure for somebody taking command in a situation of this kind? who takes over and who says who should do what? i realize it is an emergency situation. maybe that is an improper question. dr. perry. no, sir. mr. dulles. but it would be very helpful to me---- dr. perry. no, sir; it is perfectly proper. mr. dulles. in reviewing the situation to see how you acted. in a military situation, you have somebody who takes command. dr. perry. we do, too. and it essentially is based on the same kind of thing. mr. dulles. i would like to hear about that. if it doesn't fit in here---- mr. specter. it is fine. dr. perry. it is based on rank and experience, essentially. for example, dr. carrico being the senior surgical resident in the area, at the time president kennedy was brought in to the emergency suite, would have done what we felt was necessary and would have assumed control of the situation being as there were interns and probably medical students around the area, but being senior would take it. this, of course, catapulted me into this because i was the senior attending staff man when i arrived and at that time dr. carrico has noted i took over direction of the care since i was senior of all the people there and being as we are surgeons, the department of surgery operates that portion of the emergency room and directs the care of the patients. mr. dulles. did you try to clear the room of unnecessary people? dr. perry. this was done, not by me, but by the nurse supervisor, i assume, but several of the people were asked to leave the room. generally, this is not necessary. in an instance such as this, it is a little more difficult, as you can understand. mr. dulles. yes. dr. perry. but this care of an acutely injured and acutely injured patients goes on quite rapidly. over , a year go through that emergency room, and, as a result, people are well trained in the performance of their duties. there is generally no problem in asking anyone to leave the room because everyone is quite busy and they know what they have to do and are proceeding to do it. mr. dulles. thank you very much. mr. specter. upon your arrival in the room, where president kennedy was situated, what did you observe as to his condition? dr. perry. at the time i entered the door, dr. carrico was attending him. he was attaching the bennett apparatus to an endotracheal tube in place to assist his respiration. the president was lying supine on the carriage, underneath the overhead lamp. his shirt, coat, had been removed. there was a sheet over his lower extremities and the lower portion of his trunk. he was unresponsive. there was no evidence of voluntary motion. his eyes were open, deviated up and outward, and the pupils were dilated and fixed. i did not detect a heart beat and was told there was no blood pressure obtainable. he was, however, having ineffective spasmodic respiratory efforts. there was blood on the carriage. mr. dulles. what does that mean to the amateur, to the unprofessional? dr. perry. short, rather jerky contractions of his chest and diaphragm, pulling for air. mr. dulles. i see. mr. specter. were those respiratory efforts on his part alone or was he being aided in his breathing at that time? dr. perry. he had just attached the machine and at this point it was not turned on. he was attempting to breathe. mr. specter. so that those efforts were being made at that juncture at least without mechanical aid? dr. perry. those were spontaneous efforts on the part of the president. mr. specter. will you continue, then, dr. perry, as to what you observed of his condition? dr. perry. yes, there was blood noted on the carriage and a large avulsive wound on the right posterior cranium. i cannot state the size, i did not examine it at all. i just noted the presence of lacerated brain tissue. in the lower part of the neck below the adams apple was a small, roughly circular wound of perhaps mm. in diameter from which blood was exuding slowly. i did not see any other wounds. i examined the chest briefly, and from the anterior portion did not see anything. i pushed up the brace on the left side very briefly to feel for his femoral pulse, but did not obtain any. i did no further examination because it was obvious that if any treatment were to be carried out with any success a secure effective airway must be obtained immediately. i asked dr. carrico if the wound on the neck was actually a wound or had he begun a tracheotomy and he replied in the negative, that it was a wound, and at that point---- mr. dulles. i am a little confused, i thought dr. carrico was absent. that was an earlier period. dr. perry. no, sir; he was present. mr. dulles. he was present? dr. perry. yes; he was present when i walked in the room and, at that point, i asked someone to secure a tracheotomy tray but there was one already there. apparently dr. carrico had already asked them to set up the tray. mr. specter. dr. perry, backtracking just a bit from the context of the answer which you have just given, would you describe the quantity of blood which you observed on the carriage when you first came into the room where the president was located? dr. perry. mr. specter, this is an extremely difficult thing. the estimation of blood when it is either on the floor or on drapes or bandages is grossly inaccurate in almost every instance. as you know, many hospitals have studied this extensively to try to determine whether they were able to do it with any accuracy but they cannot. i can just tell you there was considerable blood present on the carriage and some on his head and some on the floor but how much, i would hesitate to estimate. several hundred cc's would be the closest i could get but it could be from to , and i know by experience you cannot estimate it more accurately. mr. specter. would you characterize it as a very substantial or minor blood loss? dr. perry. a substantial blood loss. mr. specter. now, you mentioned the president's brace. could you describe that as specifically as possible? dr. perry. no, sir; i did not examine it. i noted its presence only in an effort to reach the femoral pulse and i pushed it up just slightly so that i might palpate for the femoral pulse, i did no more examination. mr. specter. in the course of seeking the femoral pulse, did you observe or note an ace bandage? dr. perry. yes, sir. mr. specter. in the brace area? dr. perry. yes, sir. it was my impression, i saw a portion of an ace bandage, an elastic supporting bandage on the right thigh. i did not examine it at all but i just noted its presence. mr. specter. did the ace bandage cover any portion of the president's body that you were able to observe in addition to the right thigh? dr. perry. no, sir; i did not go any further. i just noted its presence right there at the junction at the hip. it could have been on the lower trunk or the upper thigh, i don't know. i didn't care any further. mr. specter. would you continue to describe the resuscitative efforts that were undertaken at that time? dr. perry. at the beginning i had removed my coat and watch as i entered the room and dropped it off in the corner, and as i was talking to dr. carrico in regard to the neck wound, i glanced cursorily at the head wound and noted its severe character, and then proceeded with the tracheotomy after donning a pair of gloves. i asked that someone call dr. kemp clark, of neurosurgery, dr. robert mcclelland, dr. charles baxter, assistant professors of surgery, to come and assist. there were several other people in the room by this time, none of which i can identify. i then began the tracheotomy making a transverse incision right through the wound in the neck. mr. specter. why did you elect to make the tracheotomy incision through the wound in the neck, dr. perry? dr. perry. the area of the wound, as pointed out to you in the lower third of the neck anteriorly is customarily the spot one would electively perform the tracheotomy. this is one of the safest and easiest spots to reach the trachea. in addition the presence of the wound indicated to me there was possibly an underlaying wound to the neck muscles in the neck, the carotid artery or the jugular vein. if you are going to control these it is necessary that the incision be as low, that is toward the heart or lungs as the wound if you are going to obtain adequate control. therefore, for expediency's sake i went directly to that level to obtain control of the airway. mr. specter. would you describe, in a general way and in lay terms, the purpose for the tracheotomy at that time? dr. perry. dr. carrico had very judicially placed an endotracheal tube but unfortunately due to the injury to the trachea, the cuff which is an inflatable balloon on the endotracheal tube was not below the tracheal injury and thus he could not secure the adequate airway that you would require to maintain respiration. (at this point, mr. mccloy entered the hearing room.) mr. specter. dr. perry, you mentioned an injury to the trachea. will you describe that as precisely as you can, please? dr. perry. yes. once the transverse incision through the skin and subcutaneous tissues was made, it was necessary to separate the strap muscles covering the anterior muscles of the windpipe and thyroid. at that point the trachea was noted to be deviated slightly to the left and i found it necessary to sever the exterior strap muscles on the other side to reach the trachea. i noticed a small ragged laceration of the trachea on the anterior lateral right side. i could see the endotracheal tube which had been placed by dr. carrico in the wound, but there was evidence of air and blood around the tube because i noted the cuff was just above the injury to the trachea. mr. specter. will you now proceed to describe what efforts you made to save the president's life? dr. perry. at this point, i had entered the neck, and dr. baxter and dr. mcclelland arrived shortly thereafter. i cannot describe with accuracy their exact arrival. i only know i looked up and saw dr. baxter as i began the tracheotomy and he took a pair of gloves to assist me. dr. mcclelland's presence was known to me at the time he picked up an instrument and said, "here, i will hand it to you." at that point i was down in the trachea. once the trachea had been exposed i took the knife and incised the windpipe at the point of the bullet injury. and asked that the endotracheal tube previously placed by dr. carrico be withdrawn slightly so i could insert a tracheotomy tube at this level. this was effected and attached to an anesthesia machine which had been brought down by dr. jenkins and dr. giesecke for better control of circulation. i noticed there was free air and blood in the right mediastinum and although i could not see any evidence, myself any evidence, of it in the pleura of the lung the presence of this blood in this area could be indicative of the underlying condition. i asked someone to put in a chest tube to allow sealed drainage of any blood or air which might be accumulated in the right hemothorax. this occurred while i was doing the tracheotomy. i did not know at the time when i inserted the tube but i was informed subsequently that dr. paul peters, assistant professor of urology, and dr. charles baxter, previously noted in this record, inserted the chest tube and attached it to underwater seal or drainage of the right pneumothorax. mr. dulles. how long did this tracheotomy take, approximately? dr. perry. i don't know that for sure, mr. dulles. however, i have--a matter of to minutes, perhaps even less. this was very--i didn't look at the watch, i have done them at those speeds and faster when i have had to. so i would estimate that. at this point also dr. carrico, having previously attached and assisting with the attaching of the anesthesia machine was doing another cut down on the right leg; dr. ronald jones was doing an additional cut down, venous section on the left arm for the insertion of plastic cannula into veins so one may rapidly and effectively infuse blood and fluids. these were being done. it is to dr. carrico's credit, i think he ordered the hydrocortisone for the president having known he suffered from adrenal insufficiency and in this particular instance being quite busy he had the presence of mind to recall this and order what could have been a lifesaving measure, i think. mr. specter. would you identify who dr. baxter is? dr. perry. yes. dr. charles baxter is, when i noted when i asked for the call, is an assistant professor of surgery also and dr. mcclelland. mr. specter. and is dr. mcclelland occupying a similar position at parkland memorial hospital as dr. baxter? dr. perry. that is correct. mr. specter. would you identify dr. jenkins? dr. perry. dr. m. t. jenkins is professor and chairman of the department of anesthesiology and chief of the anesthesia service, and dr. giesecke is assistant professor of anesthesiology at parkland. mr. specter. have you now identified all of the medical personnel whom you can recollect who were present at the time the aid was being rendered to the president? dr. perry. no, sir; several other people entered the room. i recall seeing dr. bashour who is an associate professor of medicine and chief of the cardiology section at parkland. dr. don w. seldin, who is professor and chairman of the department of medicine, and i previously mentioned dr. paul peters, assistant professor of urology, and i believe that dr. jackie hunt of the department of anesthesiology was also there, and there were other people, i cannot identify them, several nurses and several others. mr. specter. dr. william kemp clark arrived at about that time? dr. perry. dr. clark's arrival was first noted to me after the completion of the tracheotomy, and at this point, the cardiotachyscope had been attached to mr. kennedy to detect any electrical activity and although i did not note any, being occupied, it was related to me there was initially evidence of a spontaneous electrical activity in the president's heart. however, at the completion of the tracheotomy and the institution of the sealed tube drainage of the chest, dr. clark and i began external cardiac massage. this was monitored by dr. jenkins and dr. giesecke who informed us we were obtaining a satisfactory carotid pulse in the neck, and someone whose name i do not know at this time, said they could also feel a femoral pulse in the leg. we continued external cardiac massage, i continued it as dr. clark examined the head wound and observed the cardiotachyscope. the exact time interval that this took i cannot tell you. i continued it until dr. jenkins and dr. clark informed me there was no activity at all, in the cardiotachyscope and that there had been no neurological or muscular response to our resuscitative effort at all and that the wound which the president sustained of his head was a mortal wound, and at that point we determined that he had expired and we abandoned efforts of resuscitation. mr. specter. would you identify dr. clark's specialty for the record, please? dr. perry. dr. clark is professor and chairman of the department of neurosurgery at the university of texas southwestern medical school, and chief of the neurosurgical services at parkland hospital. mr. specter. now, you described a condition in the right mediastinum. would you elaborate on what your views were of the condition at the time you were rendering this treatment? dr. perry. the condition of this area? mr. specter. yes, sir. dr. perry. there was both blood, free blood and air in the right superior mediastinum. that is the space that is located between the lungs and the heart at that level. as i noted, i did not see any underlying injury of the pleura, the coverings of the lungs or of the lungs themselves. but in the presence of this large amount of blood in this area, one would be unable to detect small injuries to the underlying structures. the air was indicated by the fact that there was some frothing of this blood present, bubbling which could have been due to the tracheal injury or an underlying injury to the lung. since the morbidity attendant upon insertion of an anterior chest tube for sealed drainage is negligible and the morbidity which attends a pneumothorax is considerable, i elected to have the chest tube put in place because we were giving him positive pressure oxygen and the possibility of inducing a tension on pneumothorax would be quite high in such instances. mr. specter. what is pneumothorax? dr. perry. hemothorax would be blood in the free chest cavity and pneumothorax would be air in the free chest cavity underlying collapse of the lungs. mr. specter. would that have been caused by the injury which you noted to the president's trachea? dr. perry. there was no evidence of a hemothorax or a pneumothorax through my examination; only it is sufficient this could have been observed because of the free blood in the mediastinum. mr. specter. were the symptoms which excited your suspicion causable by the injury to the trachea? dr. perry. they were. mr. specter. at what time was the pronouncement of death made? dr. perry. approximately o'clock. mr. specter. by whom was death announced? dr. perry. dr. kemp clark. mr. specter. was there any special reason why it was dr. kemp clark who pronounced the president had died? dr. perry. it was the opinion of those of us who had attended the president that the ultimate cause of his demise was a severe injury to his brain with subsequent loss of neurologic function and subsequent massive loss of blood, and thus dr. clark, being a neurosurgeon, signed the death certificate. mr. specter. in your opinion, would the president have survived the injury which he sustained to the neck which you have described? dr. perry. barring the advent of complications this wound was tolerable, and i think he would have survived it. mr. specter. have you now described all of the treatment which was rendered to the president by the medical team in attendance at parkland memorial hospital. dr. perry. in essence i have, mr. specter. i do not know the exact quantities of balance salt solutions or blood that was given. i mentioned the mg. of hydrocortisone dr. carrico ordered and, of course, he was given oxygen under pressure which has been previously recorded. the quantities of substances or any other drugs i have no knowledge of. mr. specter. in general you have recounted the treatment? dr. perry. that is correct. mr. specter. have you now stated for the record all of the individuals who were in attendance in treating the president that you can recollect at this time? dr. perry. yes, sir; i have. mr. specter. will you now describe as specifically as you can, the injury which you noted in the president's head? dr. perry. as i mentioned previously in the record, i made only a cursory examination of the president's head. i noted a large avulsive wound of the right parietal occipital area, in which both scalp and portions of skull were absent, and there was severe laceration of underlying brain tissue. my examination did not go any further than that. mr. specter. did you, to be specific, observe a smaller wound below the large avulsed area which you have described? dr. perry. i did not. mr. specter. was there blood in that area of the president's head? dr. perry. there was. mr. specter. which might have obscured such a wound? dr. perry. there was a considerable amount of blood at the head of the cartilage. mr. specter. would you now describe as particularly as possible the neck wound you observed? dr. perry. this was situated in the lower anterior one-third of the neck, approximately mm. in diameter. it was exuding blood slowly which partially obscured it. its edges were neither ragged nor were they punched out, but rather clean. mr. specter. have you now described the neck wound as specifically as you can? dr. perry. i have. mr. specter. based on your observations of the neck wound alone, do you have a sufficient basis to form an opinion as to whether it was an entrance wound or an exit wound, dr. perry. no, sir. i was unable to determine that since i did not ascertain the exact trajectory of the missile. the operative procedure which i performed was restricted to securing an adequate airway and insuring there was no injury to the carotid artery or jugular vein at that level and at that point i made the procedure. mr. specter. based on the appearance of the neck wound alone, could it have been either an entrance or an exit wound? dr. perry. it could have been either. mr. specter. permit me to supply some additional facts, dr. perry, which i shall ask you to assume as being true for purposes of having you express an opinion. assume first of all that the president was struck by a . -mm. copper-jacketed bullet fired from a gun having a muzzle velocity of approximately , feet per second, with the weapon being approximately to feet from the president, with the bullet striking him at an angle of declination of approximately degrees, striking the president on the upper right posterior thorax just above the upper border of the scapula, being cm. from the tip of the right acromion process and cm. below the tip of the right mastoid process, passing through the president's body striking no bones, traversing the neck and sliding between the large muscles in the posterior portion of the president's body through a fascia channel without violating the pleural cavity but bruising the apex of the right pleural cavity, and bruising the most apical portion of the right lung inflicting a hematoma to the right side of the larynx, which you have just described, and striking the trachea causing the injury which you described, and then exiting from the hole that you have described in the midline of the neck. now, assuming those facts to be true, would the hole which you observed in the neck of the president be consistent with an exit wound under those circumstances? dr. perry. certainly would be consistent with an exit wound. mr. specter. now, assuming one additional fact that there was no bullet found in the body of the president, and assuming the facts which i have just set forth to be true, do you have an opinion as to whether the wound which you observed in the president's neck was an entrance or an exit wound? dr. perry. a full jacketed bullet without deformation passing through skin would leave a similar wound for an exit and entrance wound and with the facts which you have made available and with these assumptions, i believe that it was an exit wound. mr. specter. do you have sufficient facts available to you to render an opinion as to the cause of the injury which you observed in the president's head? dr. perry. no, sir. mr. specter. have you had an opportunity to examine the autopsy report? dr. perry. i have. mr. specter. and are the facts set forth in the autopsy report consistent with your observations and views or are they inconsistent in any way with your findings and opinions? dr. perry. they are quite consistent and i noted initially that they explained very nicely the circumstances as we observed them at the time. mr. specter. could you elaborate on that last answer, dr. perry? dr. perry. yes. there was some considerable speculation, as you will recall, as to whether there were one or two bullets and as to from whence they came. dr. clark and i were queried extensively in respect to this and in addition dr. carrico could not determine whether there were one or two bullets from our initial examination. i say that because we did what was necessary in the emergency procedure, and abandoned any efforts of examination at the termination. i did not ascertain the trajectory of any of the missiles. as a result i did not know whether there was evidence for or or even bullets entering and at the particular time it was of no importance. mr. specter. but based on the additional factors provided in the autopsy report, do you have an opinion at this time as to the number of bullets there were? dr. perry. the wounds as described from the autopsy report and coupled with the wounds i have observed it would appear there were two missiles that struck the president. mr. specter. and based on the additional factors which i have provided to you by way of hypothetical assumption, and the factors present in the autopsy report from your examination of that report, what does the source of the bullets seem to have been to you? dr. perry. that i could not say. i can only determine their pathway, on the basis of these reports within the president's body. as to their ultimate source not knowing any of the circumstances surrounding it, i would not have any speculation. mr. specter. from what direction would the bullets have come based on all of those factors? dr. perry. the bullets would have come from behind the president based on these factors. mr. specter. and from the level, from below or above the president? dr. perry. not having examined any of the wounds with the exception of the anterior neck wounds, i could not say. this wound, as i noted was about mm., and roughly circular in shape. there is no way for me to determine. mr. specter. based upon a point of entrance in the body of the president which i described to you as being cm. from the right acromion process and cm. below the tip of the right mastoid process and coupling that with your observation of the neck wound, would that provide a sufficient basis for you to form an opinion as to the path of the bullet, as to whether it was level, up or down? dr. perry. yes, it would. in view of the fact there was an injury to the right lateral portion of the trachea and a wound in the neck if one were to extend a line roughly between these two, it would be going slightly superiorly, that is cephalad toward the head, from anterior to posterior, which would indicate that the missile entered from slightly above and behind. mr. specter. dr. perry, have you been a part of or participated in any press conferences? dr. perry. yes, sir; i have mr. specter. and by whom, if anyone, were the press conferences arranged? dr. perry. the initial press conference, to the best of my knowledge, was arranged by mr. hawkes who was identified to me as being of the white house press, and mr. steve landregan of the hospital administration there at parkland, and dr. kemp clark. they called me, i was in the operating suite at the time to assist with the care of the governor, and they called and asked me if it would be possible for me to come down to a press conference. mr. specter. at about what time did that call come to you, doctor? dr. perry. i am not real sure about that but probably around o'clock. mr. specter. what action, if any, did you take in response to that call? dr. perry. i put in a page for dr. baxter and dr. mcclelland since they were also involved, and went down to the emergency room where i met mr. hawkes and dr. clark. and from there we went up to classrooms one and two which had been combined into a large press room, and was packed with gentlemen and ladies of the press. mr. specter. in what building was that located? dr. perry. this was in parkland hospital, in the classroom section. mr. specter. are you able to identify which news media were present at that time? dr. perry. no, sir; there were numerous people in the room. i would estimate maybe a hundred. mr. specter. what doctors spoke at that press conference? dr. perry. dr. clark and i answered the questions. mr. specter. who spoke first as between you and dr. clark? dr. perry. i did. mr. specter. would you state as specifically as you can the questions which were asked of you at that time and the answers which you gave? dr. perry. mr. specter, i would preface this by saying that, as you know, i have been interviewed on numerous occasions subsequent to that time, and i cannot recall with accuracy the questions that were asked. they, in general, were similar to the questions that were asked here. the press were given essentially the same, but in no detail such as have been given here. i was asked, for example, what i felt caused the president's death, the nature of the wound, from whence they came, what measures were taken for resuscitation, who were the people in attendance, at what time was it determined that he was beyond our help. mr. specter. what responses did you give to questions relating to the source of the bullets, if such questions were asked? dr. perry. i could not. i pointed out that both dr. clark and i had no way of knowing from whence the bullets came. mr. specter. were you asked how many bullets there were? dr. perry. we were, and our reply was it was impossible with the knowledge we had at hand to ascertain if there were or bullets, or more. we were given, similarly, to the discussion here today, hypothetical situations. "is it possible that such could have been the case, or such and such?" if it was possible that there was one bullet. to this, i replied in the affirmative, it was possible and conceivable that it was only one bullet, but i did not know. mr. specter. what would the trajectory, or conceivable course of one bullet have been, dr. perry, to account for the injuries which you observed in the president, as you stated it? dr. perry. since i observed only two wounds in my cursory examination, it would have necessitated the missile striking probably a bony structure and being deviated in its course in order to account for these two wounds. mr. specter. what bony structure was it conceivably? dr. perry. it required striking the spine. mr. specter. did you express a professional opinion that that did, in fact, happen or it was a matter of speculation that it could have happened? dr. perry. i expressed it as a matter of speculation that this was conceivable. but, again, dr. clark and i emphasized that we had no way of knowing. mr. specter. have you now recounted as specifically as you can recollect what occurred at that first press conference or is it practical for you to give any further detail to the contents of that press conference? dr. perry. i do not recall any specific details any further than that. representative ford. mr. specter--was there ever a recording kept of the questions and answers at that interview, dr. perry? dr. perry. this was one of the things i was mad about, mr. ford. there were microphones, and cameras, and the whole bit, as you know, and during the course of it a lot of these hypothetical situations and questions that were asked to us would often be asked by someone on this side and recorded by some one on this, and i don't know who was recorded and whether they were broadcasting it directly. there were tape recorders there and there were television cameras with their microphones. i know there were recordings made but who made them i don't know and, of course, portions of it would be given to this group and questions answered here and, as a result, considerable questions were not answered in their entirety and even some of them that were asked, i am sure were misunderstood. it was bedlam. representative ford. i was thinking, was there an official recording either made by the hospital officials or by the white house people or by any government agency? dr. perry. not to my knowledge. representative ford. a true recording of everything that was said, the questions asked, and the answers given? dr. perry. not to my knowledge. mr. dulles. was there any reasonably good account in any of the press of this interview? dr. perry. no, sir. representative ford. may i ask---- dr. perry. i have failed to see one that was asked. representative ford. in other words, you subsequently read or heard what was allegedly said by you and by dr. clark and dr. carrico. were those reportings by the news media accurate or inaccurate as to what you and others said? dr. perry. in general, they were inaccurate. there were some that were fairly close, but i, as you will probably surmise, was pretty full after both friday and sunday, and after the interviews again, following the operation of which i was a member on sunday, i left town, and i did not read a lot of them, but of those which i saw i found none that portrayed it exactly as it happened. nor did i find any that reported our statements exactly as they were given. they were frequently taken out of context. they were frequently mixed up as to who said what or identification as to which person was who. representative ford. this interview took place on sunday, the th, did you say? dr. perry. no, there were several interviews, mr. ford. we had one in the afternoon, friday afternoon, and then i spent almost the entire day saturday in the administrative suite at the hospital answering questions to people of the press, and some medical people of the american medical association. and then, of course, sunday, following the operation on oswald, i again attended the press conference since i was the first in attendance with him. and, subsequently, there was another conference on monday conducted by the american medical association, and a couple of more interviews with some people whom i don't even recall. representative ford. would you say that these errors that were reported were because of a lack of technical knowledge as to what you as a physician were saying, or others were saying? dr. perry. certainly that could be it in part, but it was not all. certainly a part of it was lack of attention. a question would be asked and you would incompletely answer it and another question would be asked and they had gotten what they wanted without really understanding, and they would go on and it would go out of context. for example, on the speculation on the ultimate source of bullets, i obviously knew less about it than most people because i was in the hospital at the time and didn't know the circumstances surrounding it until it was over. i was much too busy and yet i was quoted as saying that the bullet, there was probably one bullet, which struck and deviated upward which came from the front, and what i had replied was to a question, was it conceivable that this could have happened, and i said yes, it is conceivable. i have subsequently learned that to use a straight affirmative word like "yes" is not good relations; that one should say it is conceivable and not give a straight yes or no answer. "it is conceivable" was dropped and the "yes" was used, and this was happening over and over again. of course, dr. shires, for example, who was the professor and chairman of the department was identified in one press release as chief resident. mr. dulles. as what? i didn't get it. dr. perry. as chief resident. and myself, as his being my superior, whereas dr. ronald jones was chief resident of course, nothing could be further from the truth in identifying dr. shires as chief resident. i was identified as a resident surgeon in the dallas paper. and i am not impressed with the accuracy of the press reports. mr. mccloy. i don't know whether you have covered this very well. let me ask you about the wound, the wound that you examined in the president's neck. you said that it would have been tolerable. would his speech have been impaired? dr. perry. no, sir; i don't think so. the injury was below the larynx, and certainly barring the advent of any complication would have healed without any difficulty. mr. mccloy. he would have had a relatively normal life? dr. perry. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. did you, any other time, or other than the press conference or any other period, say that you thought this was an exit wound? dr. perry. no, sir; i did not. mr. mccloy. when the president was brought, when you first saw the president, was he fully clothed, or did you cut the clothing away? dr. perry. not at the time i saw him. dr. carrico and the nurses were all in attendance, they had removed his coat and his shirt, which is standard procedure, while we were proceeding about the examination, for them to do so. mr. mccloy. but you didn't actually remove his shirt? dr. perry. no, sir; i did not. mr. mccloy. did you get the doctor's experience with regard to gunshot wounds? mr. specter. yes, sir; i did. mr. mccloy. you said something to the effect that, of knowing the president had an adrenalin insufficiency, is that something you could observe? dr. perry. this is common medical knowledge, sir, that he had had in the past necessarily taken adrenalin steroids to support this insufficiency. dr. carrico, at this moment of great stress, recalled this, and requested this be given to him at that time, this is extremely important because people who have adrenalin insufficiency are unable to mobilize this hormone at the time of any great stress and it may be fatal without support from exogenous drugs. mr. mccloy. in other words, you had a general medical history of the president before he was--common knowledge. dr. perry. no more so than anyone else, sir, except this would have stuck with us, sir, since they were already in that line. mr. mccloy. did you discuss with any of the other doctors present, and you named quite a number of them, as to whether this was an exit wound or an entrance wound? dr. perry. yes, sir; we did at the time. but our discussion was necessarily limited by the fact that none of us knew, someone asked me now--you must remember that actually the only people who saw this wound for sure were dr. carrico and myself, and some of the other doctors were quoted as saying something about the wound which actually they never said at all because they never saw it, because on their arrival i had already made the incision through the wound, and despite what the press releases may have said neither dr. carrico nor myself could say whether it was an entrance or an exit wound from the nature of the wound itself and dr. mcclelland was quoted, for example, as saying he thought it was an exit wound, but that was not what he said at all because he didn't even see it. mr. mccloy. and it is a fact, is it not, that you did not see what we now are supposed to believe was the entrance wound? dr. perry. no, sir; we did not examine him. at that time, we attended to the matters of expediency that were life-saving and the securing of an adequate airway and the stanching of massive hemorrhage are really the two medical emergencies; most everything else can wait, but those must be attended to in a matter of minutes and consequently to termination of treatment i had no morbid curiosity, my work was done, and actually i was rather anxious to leave. mr. mccloy. that is all. mr. specter. yes. (discussion off the record.) mr. dulles. i suggest, mr. specter, if you feel it is feasible, you send to the doctor the accounts of his press conference or conferences. and possibly, if you are willing, sir, you could send us a letter, send to the commission a letter, pointing out the various points in these press conferences where you are inaccurately quoted, so we can have that as a matter of record. is that feasible? dr. perry. that is, sir. would you prefer that each clipping be edited individually or a general statement? mr. dulles. well, i think it would be better to have each clipping dealt with separately. obviously, if you have answered one point in one clipping it won't be necessary to answer that point if it is repeated in another clipping. dr. perry. yes, sir. mr. dulles. just deal with the new points. dr. perry. i can and will do this. representative ford. this would be where dr. perry is quoted himself, or dr. carrico, or anyone else, they would only pass judgment on the quotes concerning themselves. mr. dulles. that would be correct. dr. perry. yes, because some of the other circumstances in some of the press releases which have come to my attention have not been entirely accurate either, regarding sequence of events, and although i would not have knowledge about those you would not want those added necessarily, just any statement alluded to have been made by me. mr. dulles. i think that would be better. don't you think so, mr. chairman? representative ford. i think it would be the proper procedure. is this a monumental job, mr. specter? mr. specter. no, i think it is one which can be managed, congressman ford. i might say we have done that with some of the clippings. there was an article, as the deposition records will show when you have an opportunity to review them, they have not been transcribed, as to an article which appeared in la expres, statements were attributed to dr. mcclelland---- mr. dulles. which paper? mr. specter. a french paper, la expres. and i questioned the doctors quoted therein and developed for the record what was true and what was false on the statements attributed to them, so we have undertaken that in some circles but not as extensively as you suggest as to dr. perry, because we have been trying diligently to get the tape records of the television interviews, and we were unsuccessful. i discussed this with dr. perry in dallas last wednesday, and he expressed an interest in seeing them, and i told him we would make them available to him prior to his appearance, before deposition or before the commission, except our efforts at cbs and nbc, abc and everywhere including new york, dallas and other cities were to no avail. the problem is they have not yet cataloged all of the footage which they have, and i have been advised by the secret service, by agent john howlett, that they have an excess of hours of transcripts among all of the events and they just have not cataloged them and could not make them available. mr. dulles. do you intend to catalog them? mr. specter. yes, they do, mr. dulles. they intend to do that eventually in their normal process, and the secret service is trying to expedite the news media to give us those, and it was our thought as to the film clips, which would be the most direct or the recordings which would be the most direct, to make comparisons between the reports in the news media and what dr. perry said at that time, and the facts which we have from the doctors through our depositions and transcript today. representative ford. can you give us any time estimate when this catalog and comparison might be made? mr. specter. only that they are working on it right now, have been for some time, but it may be a matter of a couple of weeks until they can turn it over. (discussion off the record.) mr. mccloy. mr. chairman, i have some doubt as to the present propriety of making, of having the doctor make, comments in respect to a particular group of newspaper articles. there have been comments, as we all know, around the world, of great variety and great extent, and it would be practically impossible, i suppose, to check all of the accounts and in failing to check one would not wish to have it suggested that others, the accuracy of others was being endorsed. i would suggest that the staff make an examination of the files that we have of the comments, together with such tape recordings as may have been taken of the actual press conferences, and after that examination is made we can then determine, perhaps a little more effectively, what might be done to clarify this situation so that it would conform to the actual statements that the doctor has made. mr. dulles. well, mr. mccloy, it is quite satisfactory with me and i agree with you we cannot run down all of the rumors in all of the press and it is quite satisfactory with me to wait and see whether we have adequate information to deal with this situation when we get in the complete tapes of the various television, radio and other appearances, so that we have a pretty complete record of what these two witnesses and others have said on the points we have been discussing here today. so i quite agree we will await this presentation to the doctors until we have had a further chance to review this situation. what i wanted to be sure was that when we are through with this we do have in our files and records adequate information to deal with a great many of the false rumors that have been spread on the basis of false interpretation of these appearances before television, radio, and so forth and so on. representative ford. is that all, mr. dulles, and mr. mccloy? mr. dulles. yes. mr. mccloy. may i ask at this point, did you examine governor connally, too? dr. perry. i was in the operating room briefly to see about his leg. mr. mccloy. you haven't come to that point in your interrogation. mr. specter. i did not. mr. mccloy. i understood you to say you did examine oswald. dr. perry. yes, sir; i operated on oswald. mr. specter. have you now described in general the press conferences in which you participated immediately after the treatment which you rendered to president kennedy and following the treatment which you assisted in rendering to mr. oswald? dr. perry. to the best of my knowledge. mr. specter. and did you make an effort to leave the area of dallas immediately following the monday after the weekend of the assassination and the killing of oswald in an effort to get away from the press conferences? dr. perry. i left monday afternoon approximately o'clock. mr. specter. where did you go? dr. perry. i went to mcallen, tex., to the home of my mother-in-law. mr. specter. and how far is that from dallas? dr. perry. about miles. mr. specter. did you leave instructions as to revealing the destination that you set upon? dr. perry. no, only with dr. shires and my secretary. mr. specter. and were you contacted by the press in mcallen? dr. perry. the following day. mr. specter. and were your whereabouts given either by dr. shires or your secretary? dr. perry. no, it was not. mr. specter. will you relate briefly the sequence that followed in mcallen, tex. dr. perry. the gentleman from upi came out and knocked on the door, and i was quite surprised, not having told anyone where i was going, and i asked him if he would mind telling me how he found out how i was there, and looking back at it i was kind of naive, i went to a relative and told no one else. he had a wire in his hands which he showed me indicating it had come from the dallas office, naming the place where i was, and the exact address, and who i was staying with. mr. specter. did he ask to take pictures of you? dr. perry. he did. mr. specter. what was your response? dr. perry. this was denied. mr. specter. and did he ask you questions? dr. perry. he did, essentially the same questions which i have reiterated as to the emergency treatment that was undertaken. he did not press the point as to the number of bullets or anything of that, and i told him i had no knowledge of that. he only asked about the emergency measures i had taken and i related them to him as i have to you. mr. specter. subsequently, did an article appear about you in the saturday evening post? dr. perry. it did. mr. specter. would you outline briefly the circumstances surrounding the appearance of that article as you felt them to be? dr. perry. we were contacted, not i directly but dr. shires, by the medical editor of the saturday evening post, this was all related to me by dr. shires, in regard to a possible story. this was declined, since dr. shires and those of us in the department felt that the news value was gone and this was commercialism, and they told dr. shires, i am told, that they would not print anything. however, an article appearing under a new york herald tribune uncopyrighted by-line apparently was subsequently acquired by them and published. mr. specter. and was that article accurate, inaccurate, or what was the level of accuracy of the contents thereof? dr. perry. the level of accuracy was not very good at all. it was overly dramatic, garish and in poor taste, and ethically damaging to me. mr. specter. in what way was it ethically damaging to you, dr. perry? dr. perry. as you know, it is our policy that the physician's name in the treatment of any patient be essentially kept quiet. there are unusual circumstances surrounding this one, of course, and our names were made public. but this mentions my name freely, published a photograph that apparently was taken of me at the press conference and had previously appeared in a newspaper, and a picture of the emergency room, trauma room no. , and although most of the people in the medical profession, i have subsequently been assured by the society of surgeons and ama, that they realize i had no part in it, which is obvious to them because of the gross inaccuracies. nonetheless it is harmful to me as a member of the faculty of the medical school to have such an article in print. mr. specter. dr. perry, did you have occasion to discuss your observations with comdr. james j. humes of the bethesda naval hospital? dr. perry. yes, sir; i did. mr. specter. when did that conversation occur? dr. perry. my knowledge as to the exact accuracy of it is obviously in doubt. i was under the initial impression that i talked to him on friday, but i understand it was on saturday. i didn't recall exactly when. mr. specter. do you have an independent recollection at this moment as to whether it was on friday or saturday? dr. perry. no, sir; i have thought about it again and the events surrounding that weekend were very kaleidoscopic, and i talked with dr. humes on two occasions, separated by a very short interval of, i think it was, minutes or an hour or so, it could have been a little longer. mr. specter. what was the medium of your conversation? dr. perry. over the telephone. mr. specter. did he identify himself to you as dr. humes of bethesda? dr. perry. he did. mr. specter. would you state as specifically as you can recollect the conversation that you first had with him? dr. perry. he advised me that he could not discuss with me the findings of necropsy, that he had a few questions he would like to clarify. the initial phone call was in relation to my doing a tracheotomy. since i had made the incision directly through the wound in the neck, it made it difficult for them to ascertain the exact nature of this wound. of course, that did not occur to me at the time. i did what appeared to me to be medically expedient. and when i informed him that there was a wound there and i suspected an underlying wound of the trachea and even perhaps of the great vessels he advised me that he thought this action was correct and he said he could not relate to me any of the other findings. mr. specter. would you relate to me in lay language what necropsy is? dr. perry. autopsy, postmortem examination. mr. specter. what was the content of the second conversation which you had with comdr. humes, please? dr. perry. the second conversation was in regard to the placement of the chest tubes for drainage of the chest cavity. and i related to him, as i have to you, the indications that prompted me to advise that this be done at that time. mr. specter. dr. perry, did you observe any bruising of the neck muscles of president kennedy when you were engaged in your operative procedure that you have described? dr. perry. this bruising, as you describe, would have been obscured by the fact that there was a large amount of blood, hematoma, present in the neck and the mediastinum and hence all the blood tissues were covered by this blood. mr. specter. a few moments ago in response to a question by mr. mccloy i believe you commented that, as you recollected it, very few of the doctors would have had an opportunity to observe the hole in the president's neck and i think you said that only you and dr. carrico would have had such an opportunity. can you state, with absolute certainty, at which point the various doctors arrived in the room? and bear in mind on this that while you have not had the opportunity to review the depositions, some of the other doctors have expressed the view that they have had an opportunity to see the wound. specifically, dr. m. t. jenkins said in a deposition that he did see the wound, and i have not had an opportunity to ask you that question before, because you made the comment during the course of the testimony today. but i would like your comment on, in your opinion, whether the other doctors would have had an opportunity, perhaps, to observe the neck wound prior to the tracheotomy? dr. perry. since i don't know with accuracy the exact times of their arrival, it is conceivable that others could have seen it. and dr. jenkins was apparently one of the early arrivals in the room. however, at the time that i arrived, as i related, dr. carrico was present and dr. jones and i. dr. jones immediately directed himself toward obtaining another intravenous infusion, and i immediately went to the neck wound. at the time of arrival of the other surgeons which assisted me in the operation, i had already made the incision. dr. jenkins could have arrived at the time that i was preparing to make the incision and seen the wound. it is possible, i don't know when he came in the room. i know he did not examine the wound per se. mr. specter. and similarly dr. jones has commented in the course of his deposition about the situation with respect to the wound in the neck. based on your observations, would it be consistent with what you know to be fact that he had an opportunity to examine the neck wound? dr. perry. i know he might have seen it because he and i entered the room simultaneously, we came down together. to my knowledge, he did not examine the wound although he might have noted the wound present as i went to work. mr. specter. specifically what did he do then as you went to work? dr. perry. he was standing immediately on my left at that point, doing a venesection, a cut down in the left arm for the administration of fluids so he was able to observe the performance of the tracheotomy. mr. specter. in your opinion, dr. perry, was president kennedy alive or dead on arrival at parkland? dr. perry. the president was alive in that spontaneous ineffective respiratory motions were observed by me, and although i never detected a pulse or a heartbeat, i was told there was also electrical activity on the cardiotachyscope when it was initially attached indicating there was spontaneous activity of the heart. he was, therefore alive for medical purposes. mr. specter. who told you about the electrical activity on the cardiotachyscope? dr. perry. dr. clark. mr. specter. was any bullet found by you or by any other doctor at parkland in the president's body? dr. perry. i found none. to the best of my knowledge neither did anyone else. mr. specter. was the president ever turned over at any time? dr. perry. not by me nor did i see it done. mr. specter. were you present as long as any other doctor was present in the emergency room? dr. perry. no, sir; i think that at the time that i left trauma room number one, i went outside, and washed my hands, and i opened the door briefly to retrieve my coat which i had left there on the floor and the nurse handed me my coat. at that time as i recall doctor jenkins was still in the room and there were several other people there including mrs. kennedy and the priest, and some gentlemen whom i did not know. mr. specter. now, did you make any effort to examine the clothing of president kennedy?. dr. perry. i did not. (at this point, representative boggs entered the hearing room.) mr. specter. why was it, dr. perry, that there was no effort made to examine the clothing of president kennedy and no effort to turn him over and examine the back of the president? dr. perry. at the termination of the procedure and after we had determined that mr. kennedy had expired, i cannot speak for the others but as for myself, my work was done. i fought a losing battle, and i actually obviously, having seen a lot of wounds, had no morbid curiosity, and actually was rather anxious to leave the room. i had nothing further to offer. mr. specter. with the president having been declared dead, did you consider it was your function to make any further exploration of the president's body? dr. perry. this is not my function or my prerogative. this would be undertaken by suitable authorities at the time of postmortem, people with experience superior to mine in determining things of this sort. mr. specter. where was mrs. kennedy, if you know, during the course of the treatment which you have described that you performed? dr. perry. i had the initial impression she was in the room most of the time although i have been corrected on this. when i entered the room she was standing by the door, rather kneeling by the door, and someone was standing there beside her. i saw her several times during the course of the resuscitative measures, when i would look up from the operative field to secure an instrument from the nearby tray. mr. dulles. under your procedure who had the responsibility for declaring that the president was dead? dr. perry. this was a combination of factors, mr. dulles, undertaken by those of us all in attendance, by dr. clark and dr. jenkins and myself particularly since we were the senior people there. i was informed subsequently that mrs. kennedy left the room several times to just outside the door but returned although as i say, i saw her several times in the room. i did not speak to her nor she to me so i do not have any knowledge as to exactly what she was doing. mr. specter. did you observe any wound in the president's chest? dr. perry. i did not. mr. specter. did you observe any wound on the left side of the president's head? dr. perry. no, sir. mr. specter. have you heretofore during the course of your testimony today described all of the wounds in the president which you have observed? dr. perry. i have. mr. specter. were you and the other doctors affected, in your opinion, in your treatment of the president by virtue of the fact that he was the president of the united states? dr. perry. yes, sir; i am sure that is true. at the time that i was going down the stairs to the emergency room i was, of course, quite concerned, not knowing any of the circumstances surrounding the incident nor in what condition i would find him, and at the time that i entered the room, and it was my initial impression that he had a mortal wound. at that point i directed myself to doing that which i could do and, of course, the time then became quite compressed during the course of the procedures and it was really not until afterwards that the full impact of what had happened began to hit me. mr. specter. did you have any occasion to render any treatment to governor connally at parkland hospital? dr. perry. i saw the governor in regard to the consultation in regard to the injury to his leg. as i related earlier i am consultant in vascular surgery to the hospital, and the estimated course of the missile in his leg presupposed that he might have an injury to his femoral artery or vein and dr. shires asked me if i would put on a scrub suit and come to the operating room to assist in case it was necessary to do some arterial surgery. it was not, however, so i did not operate. mr. specter. at what time approximately did you arrive at the operating room where governor connally was being cared for? dr. perry. i don't know, sir. mr. specter. was it during the course of the operation performed by dr. shires? dr. perry. yes, at that time i was there during the time dr. shires was there and dr. gregory was also operating on the arm at that point. dr. shaw had completed his portion of the procedure. mr. specter. that would have been after the press conference had been completed? dr. perry. yes, sir. mr. specter. did you have occasion to render medical aid to lee harvey oswald on november ? dr. perry. i did. mr. mccloy. before you get to that may i get clear, dr. shires and dr. gregory were in attendance? mr. specter. dr. shaw in addition. dr. perry. yes, and shaw. mr. mccloy. shaw, shires and gregory? doctor perry. s-h-i-r-e-s. representative boggs. before you get to oswald may i ask one question? i am sure the doctor covered it. you said the minute you saw the president you felt he had suffered a mortal wound? dr. perry. yes, sir. representative boggs. you saw the wound immediately then? dr. perry. well, i saw his condition immediately, and as you are aware, i have attended a lot of people with severe injuries. representative boggs. surely. dr. perry. and he obviously was in extremis when i walked in the room. and then i noted very cursorily the wound in the head and it was obvious that this was an extremely serious wound. representative boggs. was he still alive when you saw him? dr. perry. he was. representative boggs. that is all. representative ford. may i ask, mr. specter, during the total time that you were examining and treating the president, how much of his exposed body did you see? dr. perry. the upper trunk predominantly, congressman ford. his chest, and, of course, his arms were bare, neck and head. i did not examine any other portions of his body nor did i see any other portions except briefly when i felt for the femoral pulse on the left side. representative ford. from the waist on up the front? dr. perry. yes, sir. mr. specter. would you describe the treatment rendered to mr. oswald at parkland memorial hospital by yourself and by others as you observed it? dr. perry. at the time i saw--starting with when i was called? mr. specter. yes. dr. perry. well, i went immediately to the emergency room again, dr. jones and i who also was in the hospital again, and told me that i was the only attending surgeon present, and that they were bringing mr. oswald out, and i was in the surgery suite and i went directly to the emergency room just as he was being brought indoors. mr. specter. at approximately what time was that? dr. perry. i really don't know, sir. it was about : or so when i was up in surgery. i had been seeing a baby in regard to an operation we had scheduled at o'clock and then dr. jones came after me. mr. specter. how long did it take you approximately to travel from the point where you received the notice that he was en route until your arrival at the emergency room? dr. perry. no more than or minutes. mr. specter. and you say you arrived there simultaneously with mr. oswald? dr. perry. just as he came in. mr. specter. precisely where in the hospital was it where you met mr. oswald? dr. perry. he was brought into the emergency room, trauma room number two, and as they wheeled him in i came around the corner. mr. specter. what action did you take with respect to mr. oswald? dr. perry. well, there were numerous people in attendance, more so than on the previous incident on friday. he also obviously was quite seriously injured. he was cyanotic, very blue and although he also was attempting respirations, they were not effective, and an endotracheal tube was placed in him by one of the anesthesiologists, i think dr. jenkins, and i examined his chest and noted the entrance point of the bullet wound on the left side and i could feel the bullet just under the skin on the right side, right rear margin, indicating the bullet had passed entirely through his body and come to rest under the skin. mr. specter. where through his body? dr. perry. i beg your pardon sir, the bullet entered approximately the midaxillary line at about the th or th interspace on the left side of the chest cage, and came to rest just under the rib margin on the right side under the skin. mr. specter. could you supply in lay language what cyanotic means? dr. perry. blue from lack of oxygen. mr. specter. could you explain in lay language the midaxillary line? dr. perry. it is about the mid portion of the fold extending down from the armpit on the left. this is just rough because i glanced at that briefly and determined the nature of the path of the bullet and from looking at him it was obvious that this had traversed major structures in his body in order to reach that particular place, so while a cutdown was being done again to administer fluid, i asked someone to put in a left chest tube on him because it appeared it went in and i recalled surgery until they were bringing him directly up. dr. tom shires, chief of the surgical services, came into the door at a point and dr. mcclelland, and we left and went to surgery to change clothes and they brought him from there immediately to surgery and we proceeded with the operation. mr. specter. who was present, if anyone, with mr. oswald at the time you arrived there? dr. perry. in the emergency room? mr. specter. yes. dr. perry. dr. jenkins was there, dr. m. t. jenkins, chief of anesthesiology. i think dr. giesecke was also there again, although i am not sure of that. i saw dr. risk who is a resident in urology and i saw dr. dulany who is a resident in surgery. dr. boland, i believe who is a resident in thoracic surgery and, of course, dr. jones and myself, and there were several other people, the nurses, i don't recall. mr. specter. will you describe briefly the physical layout utilized in taking mr. oswald from trauma room number two which you have already described up to the operating room? dr. perry. we have an express elevator that connects delivery room, operating room, emergency room and it is approximately yards from trauma room two, i would estimate, just around the corner, in an even corridor and although i was not there as they took him up, i was in the operating room preparing and scrubbing, he was wheeled directly there to the express elevator and taken to the second floor where the operating suites are. mr. specter. approximately how long does it take to get a patient from the trauma room up to the operating room? dr. perry. it depends on a lot of factors. one is if the elevator is there or not or if it happens to be in surgery or in the delivery room. but i have on occasion where it was necessary that you must go with all dispatch to the operating room, have done it in a matter of a few minutes. they brought him right in the door, placed him on the elevator with a finger controlling the hemorrhage where you could take him directly to the operating room. i have done that in a matter, i am sure, of less than or minutes if i had to. mr. specter. approximately how long did it take to get oswald from trauma room two to the operating room? dr. perry. i don't know, i was told subsequently it was minutes from the time we had him up. and---- representative boggs. how long was it from the time he was shot until he reached the hospital? dr. perry. i have no knowledge of that, sir. representative boggs. do you know? mr. specter. no; i don't know. mr. dulles. was he conscious at any time so far as you know? dr. perry. no, sir; he did not say a word. mr. dulles. he was not conscious? dr. perry. no, sir; and even had he been, of course, once we had the endotracheal tube in he could not have spoken. mr. specter. who was in charge of the operation performed on mr. oswald? dr. perry. dr. tom shires. mr. specter. who was in assistance with dr. shires? dr. perry. i first assisted dr. shires and then ronald jones and dr. mcclelland were also at the operation. mr. specter. will you describe the operative procedures employed on mr. oswald please? dr. perry. yes. from the nature of the trajectory of the wound and the nature of the path of the bullet on the other side it was obvious that it had traversed major vessels, the aorta and vena cava. the aorta and vena cava, the heart area, and then a midline incision was made. a rapid prep with iodine was done, the patient was draped. an incision was carried rapidly into the abdominal cavity at which time we noticed approximately litres of free blood which is an excess of three quarts. this was removed by suction, lap packs and by just moving it out in the form of clots with the hands. it was noted there was considerable bleeding appearing in both the right upper and left upper quadrants of the body. there was a large hematoma retroperitoneally in the midline also, causing the bowels to be pushed forward rather strikingly. we immediately dissected over the portal vein on the right since it was apparently injured, and placed a vascular occlusive clamp of the sittinsky type in this area to control the bleeding. noted an injury to the right kidney and to the lobe of the liver. we also noted there was an injury to the stomach, the pancreas, the spleen. at that point it became apparent that he had indeed struck major vessels, and appeared to be the aorta, so the left colon was reflected very rapidly in order to allow us to enter the space behind the intestines, the retroperitoneal space, and at that point i controlled the bleeding from the aorta by finger pressure below and above this area. the bullet had knocked the superior mesenteric artery completely off the aorta exposing a large area. after i had controlled the bleeding dr. shires was able to dissect around the area sufficient to allow us to gain control of the aorta, superior mesenteric artery and the vena cava and the placement of vascular clamps across these vessels in order to stop the hemmorhage. at this point, he was being given blood and, of course, the suitable anesthesia measures which were oxygen under pressure. he did not require an anesthetic agent, i am told. mr. specter. who told you that, dr. perry? dr. perry. i think one of the residents did, one of the anesthesia residents. we at that point had restored his blood pressure. i don't know the exact recordings, but i was told subsequently it had returned to near normal levels since we had the bleeding controlled. mr. specter. what was the situation with respect to his respiration at that time? dr. perry. it was being assisted and controlled, of course, by anesthesiology. this was no problem. we had a tube in place and was breathing for him so he had no problem with respiration. this was completely under control of anesthesia. the blood pressure was controlled and we stopped for a moment to determine how we would best go about repairing the structures and which would have priority, all the bleeding had stopped but, as i recall, the clamping of the aorta at the level of the superior mesenteric artery means, of course, that you must prevent blood from entering the kidneys, and this in itself can be hazardous if extended, and therefore we decided this must be repaired immediately in order to restore blood into the kidneys and the lower portion of the body. then dr. jenkins informed me and dr. shires that his cardiac action was becoming weak, and i don't remember all the details surrounding the medications and the things that were done at this particular time, but he developed a backward cardiac failure, his heart slowed abruptly and the blood pressure fell again and it was apparent the tremendous blood loss he had had set the stage for irreversible shock and lack of pumping action from the heart although he was being given massive transfusions, i don't know the exact number, probably he had or units. i believe it is in the record. at this point when they told me a cardiac arrest had occurred as a result of the hemorrhage and blood loss i took a knife and opened the left chest in the fourth interspace and reached in to massage his heart, and the heart was flabby, and dilated, and apparently contained very little blood. i began to massage the heart, to maintain it as we infused the blood and was able to obtain a palpable pulse in the carotid vessels going to the neck and into the head. we were unable to get the heart to go, and it began to fibrillate which is an uncoordinated motion of the muscles of the heart itself and the successive electrical shocks were applied with the defibrillator and to stimulate heart action, and we failed in this and the cardiac pacemaker was sewn in place, and it was handed to me by the thoracic surgery resident, and i sewed it into the heart to artificially induce heart action, this also was without benefit. we were never able to restore effective heart action and then dr. jenkins informed as neurologically he was not responding, that his reflexes were gone, and he felt that he had expired. mr. specter. at approximately what time did that occur? dr. perry. i don't know, mr. specter, i would have to look at the record. mr. specter. at approximately how long after he arrived at the hospital did that occur? dr. perry. i don't know that, either. mr. specter. can you approximate the length of time of the operation itself? dr. perry. minutes or so, i would say. mr. specter. is there any question but that he was alive during the course of your operative procedures? dr. perry. oh, no, no question. the fact is we were very close, i think, to winning the battle. we have seen injuries of this magnitude, they rarely survive, this is a very serious injury and to the best of my knowledge i have not seen anyone with this particular set of injuries survive. but at one point once we controlled the hemorrhage and once i had control of the aorta and was able to stop the bleeding of that area i actually felt we had a very good chance since everything had proceeded with expediency. mr. specter. have you been interviewed by any representative of the federal government in connection with your treatment of president kennedy, dr. perry? dr. perry. yes, i have. mr. specter. by whom were you interviewed? dr. perry. i regret that i do not recall their names. i was interviewed by two gentlemen from the secret service approximately the following week, as i recall, and again about a month ago. mr. specter. and what questions were asked of you on the first interview by the secret service? dr. perry. essentially in regard to the treatment and once again speculation as to where the bullets might have originated and what the nature of the wounds were and i was unable to supply them with any adequate information. mr. specter. were the responses given by you to the secret service on that first interview essentially the same as you have given today? dr. perry. with minor variations in wording, they are essentially the same. mr. specter. approximately when did the second interview occur with the secret service? dr. perry. i think approximately a month ago, although i am not sure of that. mr. specter. what was the content of that interview? dr. perry. a gentleman identified himself as being connected with the warren commission and secret service. i asked for his credentials which he duly supplied and he asked me in regard to any further information i might have pertaining to the events of that weekend, and we reiterated some of these statements which i made previously, and since i had nothing more to add, why it was terminated. mr. specter. did you supply any information which was in any way different from that which you have testified to here today? dr. perry. in essence; no, sir. mr. specter. on the second interview, did the man identify himself to you as a secret service agent who was conducting a further inquiry at the request of the president's commission? dr. perry. yes, sir; he said he was with the warren commission. mr. specter. did i discuss the facts within your knowledge or take your deposition in dallas on wednesday, march , ? dr. perry. yes. mr. specter. and was the information which you provided at that time in advance of the deposition and during the course of the deposition itself the same as the information which you provided here today concerning the treatment of president kennedy, your observations and opinions on president kennedy? dr. perry. it is. mr. specter. have i made that transcript available to you this morning before we started this testimony? dr. perry. yes. mr. specter. have you at any time changed any opinion which you held concerning any matter relating to president kennedy? dr. perry. no, sir. mr. specter. did you prepare a handwritten report on your care of president kennedy which became part of the record of parkland hospital? dr. perry. i did. mr. specter. which you identified during the course of the deposition proceeding as being your report? dr. perry. yes, that is correct. mr. specter. do you have any other notes of your own relating to any of the matters which you testified here today? dr. perry. none. mr. mccloy. what was the condition of, general physical condition, apart from the wounds, of oswald, as you observed him? was his body healthy? dr. perry. i made only a very cursory examination, mr. mccloy. he appeared rather thin to me. mr. mccloy. not, you wouldn't call him a muscular type? dr. perry. no, he would be what we would describe as a thinnish individual, that is very thin; was wiry rather than bulky muscles. mr. mccloy. were there any signs that you observed cursorily, symptoms of any prior disease? dr. perry. no, i did not look for those. mr. dulles. no distinguishing marks on the body that you saw, prior operations? dr. perry. no, sir; i did not look. there was no evidence of previous surgical operation on his abdomen, and i didn't examine anything else. of course, this also can be missed unless you are looking for it. we went through the midline and unless one went looking for it we did not have time and we would not see it. mr. specter. dr. perry, was the chest tube inserted in the president's chest abandoned or was that operation or operative procedure completed? dr. perry. the chest tube, to be placed there, was supposedly placed into the pleural cavity. however, i have knowledge that it was not. mr. specter. and what was the reason for its not being placed into the pleural cavity? dr. perry. i did not speak with certainty but at that point i think that we were at the end of the procedure and they just did not continue with it. mr. specter. had it become apparent at that time that the president expired? dr. perry. that, i think, is probably true, but i did not state that with certainty because i cannot state the exact sequence. i was employed myself at the time, and i think if it had been determined that this was not in, it would have been completed, if there was still time, but i am not sure of that. that is speculation. mr. specter. with respect to the condition of the neck wounds, was it ragged or pushed out in any manner? dr. perry. no, it was not. as i originally described it, the edges were neither cleancut, that is punched out, nor were they very ragged. i realize that is not a very specific description but it is in between those two areas. mr. specter. was there blood in that area which tended to obscure your view? dr. perry. it was exuding blood during that procedure and thus i did not examine it very closely. in retrospect, i think it would have been of much more value had i looked at these things more carefully but i had directed my attention to other things. mr. specter. those complete my questions. representative ford. mr. mccloy? mr. dulles? have you examined the autopsy report made by the officials in bethesda? dr. perry. yes, sir, i have. representative ford. does your testimony conform to the facts stated in that report? dr. perry. i think so. at the time the testimony which i have given here of my knowledge without the--was given the same as it was without the basis of that report. but now having had access to that report, i think it ties in very nicely. i see no discrepancies at all. for example, had i known that he had these other two wounds, it would have been much easier at the time to state a little more categorically about the trajectory of the missiles, but not knowing about those i could only speculate. representative ford. there is no basic conflict between what you have testified to or what you have said previously, and the autopsy report? dr. perry. none at all. representative boggs. just one question. i presume this question has been asked. this neck wound, was there any indication that that wound had come from the front? dr. perry. there is no way to tell, sir, for sure. as you may recall, passage of a high velocity missile, the damage it does, is dependent on two factors, actually, one being deformation of the missile, increase in its relative caliber, and the other the expending of the energy of that missile in the object it strikes. for example, the energy used to carry the missile beyond the object that it struck is obviously not going to cause much of an injury. if there is a missile of relatively high velocity, although i consider this a medium velocity weapon, that the missile for entrance or exit had the bullet not been deformed would not be substantially different, had it not been deformed nor particularly slowed in its velocity. representative boggs. by that, you mean it would be difficult to determine the point of exit and the point of entrance under those circumstances? dr. perry. yes, sir; unless one were able to ascertain the trajectory. if you could, for example, make check points between what the missile might have struck, then you could ascertain trajectory. but with a relatively high velocity missile, this also is difficult due to the amount of blast injury which occurs in enclosed tissues, similar to those i am sure you have seen to those discussed, so blast injury can be an area remote from the exact passage of the missile itself. representative boggs. of course, your main concern was to try to save the president's life and not---- dr. perry. yes, sir; it actually never occurred to me until all the questions began to come, and i was ill-prepared to meet them, but it never occurred to me that, to investigate, because i was busy, and i have done these types of things many times. it just never occurred to me to look into it until afterwards. representative ford. any questions, dean storey? mr. storey. no, thank you, sir. representative ford. mr. murray? mr. murray. no. mr. dulles. i have one more question i would like to ask. did you know anything about the spent bullet that was found on, i don't know what you call it--the litter? dr. perry. on the carriage? mr. dulles. on the carriage. dr. perry. my first knowledge of that was one of the newspaper publications had said there was a bullet found there. i don't know now whether it was or was not. i didn't find it. mr. specter. may i say, mr. dulles, on that subject, i took several depositions on that subject in the dallas hospital and i think we have a reasonably conclusive answer on that question; and, in fact, it came from the stretcher of governor connally. dr. perry. they were quoted as having removed a bullet from governor connally's leg, the press quoted that, but a bullet was not removed from governor connally's leg. mr. specter. there was no bullet removed from governor connally's leg, but there was a wound there, but there was a very small fragment embedded in the femur, as the deposition of drs. shaw, shires, and gregory will show. but the bullet was found on a stretcher and the question arose as to whose stretcher it was, and we have traced the two stretchers in a way so as to exclude the possibility of its being the stretcher on which president kennedy was carried, and we have traced the path of governor connally's stretcher and have narrowed it to two stretchers. and the bullet came off of one of the two stretchers, so that, through the circumstances of the facts, it is reasonably conclusive that it came from the stretcher of governor connally. representative ford. how long did it take you to go from where you were when the page came to get down to trauma room no. ? dr. perry. a matter of no more than a minute or so, congressman ford. it is down one flight of stairs and the door is almost immediately adjacent to the dining room where we would go and we did not wait on the elevator. we went down the stairs. representative ford. how long after the president was brought in before you went to trauma room no. ? dr. perry. that i don't know either. my last recollection in regard to time was approximately : when i was having lunch prior to rounds, and dr. jones picked up the page and as we went downstairs i took off my watch and dropped it in my coat pocket, rather expecting to do some kind of procedure, and i took off my coat and i never looked at the clock until afterwards. mr. mccloy. one more question, i want to get clear. the extent to which you examined governor connally's wounds, as i gather, you were asked to stand by. dr. perry. that is right, sir. mr. mccloy. rather than to be involved in a close examination of the wounds. dr. perry. that is right, sir. mr. mccloy. so you are not generally familiar? dr. perry. no, sir; all i did was come into the operating room, put on a scrub suit, cap and mask, and looked at the thigh wound before dr. shires started the operation. that was the extent of the episode into the wound, and i stayed there while he carried it down to the lower portion of the wound and indicated there was no serious injury, and i left the operating room at that point. mr. mccloy. and you didn't see the other two wounds? dr. perry. i didn't see the other wounds at all, sir. representative ford. thank you very much, dr. perry. your testimony has been most helpful. (whereupon, at : a.m., the president's commission recessed.) _tuesday, march , _ testimony of robert a. frazier and ronald simmons the president's commission met at a.m. on march , , at maryland avenue ne., washington, d.c. present were chief justice earl warren, chairman; representative hale boggs and john j. mccloy, members. also present were j. lee rankin, general counsel; melvin aron eisenberg, assistant counsel; norman redlich, assistant counsel; charles murray and lewis powell, observers; and leon jaworski, special counsel to the attorney general of texas. testimony of robert a. frazier the chairman. mr. frazier, the purpose of today's hearing is to take the testimony of yourself and mr. ronald simmons. you are, we understand, a firearms expert with the fbi, and mr. simmons is a firearms expert with the weapons system division at fort meade, md. you are asked to provide technical information to assist the commission in this work. would you raise your right hand and be sworn, please? you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. frazier. i do. the chairman. you may be seated, please. mr. eisenberg. mr. frazier, will you give your name and position? mr. frazier. robert a. frazier, special agent, federal bureau of investigation, assigned to the fbi laboratory, washington, d.c. mr. eisenberg. and your education? mr. frazier. i have a science degree which i received from the university of idaho. mr. eisenberg. could you briefly state your training and experience in the fields of firearms, firearms identification, and ballistics? mr. frazier. beginning in , i was on the university of idaho rifle team, and the following year, . in i enlisted in the national guard and for years was on the national guard rifle team firing both small bore, or . caliber weapons, and the large bore, . caliber weapons, both being of the bolt-action type weapons. in and i instructed in firearms in the army of the united states, and acquired additional experience in firing of weapons, training in firing at moving targets, additional training in firing the . caliber automatic and machineguns. and to further my firearms, practical firearms training, i received in a training course offered by the federal bureau of investigation after entering on duty with that organization in--on june , . that firearms training course consisted of a basic training in handguns--that is, revolvers and automatic pistols, training in autoloading rifles, training in submachineguns, shotguns, and various other types of firearms. one year later, approximately , i received a specialized administrative firearms course which qualified me for training other agents in the field of law-enforcement type firearms. over the past years, i have received the regular fbi firearms training, which is a monthly retraining in firearms, and a periodic, or every years, detailed retraining in the basic fbi firearms--the firearms training with the rifle, submachinegun, shotgun, revolver. in the fbi, training includes firing both at stationary targets and moving targets with both revolver and rifle and shotgun, and includes firing at slow-fire targets--that is aimed fire for accuracy and rapid fire to increase speed of firing. generally in the field of firearms identification, where i have been assigned for years, i received specialized training given in the fbi laboratory to train me for the position of firearms identification specialist. in that field, we make examinations of bullets and cartridge cases, firearms of various types, for the purpose of identifying weapons as to their caliber, what they are, their manufacturer, their physical characteristics, and determining the type of ammunition which they shoot. we examine ammunition of various types to identify it as to its caliber, its specific designation, and the type or types of weapons in which it can be fired, and we make comparisons of bullets to determine whether or not they were fired from a particular weapon and make comparisons of cartridge cases for the purpose of determining whether or not they were fired in a particular weapon, or for determining whether or not they had been loaded into or extracted from a particular weapon. that training course lasted for approximately year. however, of course, the experience in firearms is actually part of the training and continues for the entire time in which you are engaged in examining firearms. briefly, that is the summary of the firearms training i have had. mr. eisenberg. could you estimate the number of examinations you have made of firearms to identify the firearms? mr. frazier. thousands, i would say--firearms comparisons--i have made in the neighborhood of , to , . mr. mccloy. have you written any articles on this subject? mr. frazier. yes. i have prepared an article for the "fbi law enforcement bulletin" on firearms identification, which is published as a reprint and provided to any organization or person interested in the general field of firearms identification. mr. mccloy. have you read most of the literature on the subject? mr. frazier. yes, i have. mr. mccloy. is there any classical book on this subject? mr. frazier. there are a number of fairly good texts. the basic one, originally published in , is by maj. julian s. hatcher, who later, as a general, rewrote his book "firearms investigation, identification, and evidence." there are many other books published on the subject. mr. eisenberg. may i ask that this person be accepted as a qualified witness on firearms? the chairman. yes, indeed. mr. eisenberg. mr. frazier, i now hand you a rifle marked commission exhibit . are you familiar with this weapon? mr. frazier. yes, i am. mr. eisenberg. and do you recognize it by serial number or by your mark? mr. frazier. by serial number on the barrel, and by my initials which appear on various parts of the weapon. mr. eisenberg. for the record, this is the rifle which was found on the sixth floor of the texas school book depository building on november . can you describe this rifle by name and caliber? mr. frazier. it is a caliber . italian military rifle, commonly referred to in the united states as a . mm. mannlicher-carcano. it is a bolt-action clip-fed military rifle. do you wish a general physical description of the weapon at this time? mr. eisenberg. well, no; not at this time. can you explain the american equivalent to the . mm. caliber? mr. frazier. that is the same as . caliber. such weapons in the united states as the . - winchester, . - , the . savage, and the . roberts, are all of the same barrel diameter, or approximately the same barrel diameter. so a decimal figure of . inch is the equivalent of . mm. mr. eisenberg. and can you explain what the caliber is a measure of? mr. frazier. the caliber is the measure of the distance across the raised portions or the lands in the barrel. the groove diameter, or the spirals cut in the barrel to form the rifling, will be slightly larger--in this case between / ths and / ths of an inch larger than the actual bore diameter. the caliber is normally determined by the bore diameter. mr. eisenberg. can you explain how you made the identification of this rifle? mr. frazier. i identified it pictorially by comparing it with pictures in reference books. and the actual identification was of the manufacturer's name appearing on the barrel and serial number, which indicated it was an italian military rifle. mr. eisenberg. did you independently determine the caliber of the rifle? mr. frazier. yes, i did. mr. eisenberg. can you tell us how you did that? mr. frazier. the caliber and the caliber type may be confusing here. the caliber, being the diameter of the barrel, is determined in two ways--one, by comparing the barrel with . mm. mannlicher-carcano ammunition, which we also chambered in the weapon and determined that it actually fit the weapon. and, secondly, we measured the width of the barrel with, a micrometer. and in that connection, i would like to point out that we made a sulphur cast of the muzzle of the weapon which permitted us to use a micrometer to determine the land width and the groove width in the barrel. mr. eisenberg. do you have that sulphur cast? mr. frazier. yes, i do. mr. eisenberg. and that was made by you or under your supervision? mr. frazier. yes, it was made by me. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, i ask that this be admitted as commission exhibit no. . the chairman. it will be admitted. (the article referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. is there any reason that you can think of why this exhibit might be thought to be a . -or . -caliber rifle? mr. frazier. from outward appearances, it could be a . -mm. rifle, because, basically, that is what it is. but its mechanism has been rebarreled with a . -mm. barrel. photographs of the weapons are similar, unless you make a very particular study of the photographs of the original model italian military rifle, which is . mm. early in the second world war, however, the italian government barreled many of these rifles with a . -mm. barrel, since they had a quantity of that ammunition on hand. i presume that would be the most logical way of confusing this weapon with one of a larger caliber. mr. eisenberg. and is the . -caliber weapon distinguished from the . -caliber weapon by name? mr. frazier. yes, it is; it is by the model number. the model / designates the . -mm. rifle, whereas the model designates the . . mr. eisenberg. have you taken photographs of the various markings on the rifle? mr. frazier. yes, i did. mr. eisenberg. do you have those with you? mr. frazier. actually, i think we forwarded those photographs to the commission. mr. eisenberg. are these the photographs that you took, or had taken? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. has the federal bureau of investigation been supplied with information concerning the meanings and significances of these various markings? mr. frazier. yes, sir; we have. mr. eisenberg. can you state the source of that information? mr. frazier. this information came to us by mail as a result of an inquiry of the italian armed forces intelligence service, abbreviated sifar, by letter dated march , , through the fbi representative in rome, italy. this information is classified as secret by the italian government, who have advised that the material may be released to the commission. however, they desire the retention of the information in a secret category. the chairman. is this essential to the proof? if it is not, i think we would rather not have it, because the fewer things we have to keep in secret, the better the situation is for us. mr. eisenberg. off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. eisenberg. back on the record. based on your experience with firearms, is the placement of a specific serial number on a weapon generally confined to one weapon of a given type? mr. frazier. yes, it is. particularly--may i refer to foreign weapons particularly? the serial number consists of a series of numbers which normally will be repeated. however, a prefix is placed before the number, which actually must be part of the serial number, consisting of a letter. mr. eisenberg. have you been able to confirm that the serial number on this weapon is the only such number on such a weapon? mr. frazier. yes, it is. mr. eisenberg. all right. now, without reference to any classified information, could you briefly describe the markings shown on these photographs? mr. frazier. the first photograph is an overall photograph of the rifle. mr. eisenberg. excuse me. these photographs--when you say "first photograph"--these photographs are marked no. , no. , et cetera, on the back. mr. frazier. yes, they are. photograph no. is an overall photograph of the rifle. photograph no. is made of the top of the barrel, showing the serial number c . photograph no. is also of the top of the rifle, showing a portion of the inscription on the telescopic sight, and the figures , which is the manufacturer's date, the words "made italy" and a figure in the form of a crown, under that the letters "r-e," and then a portion of the word "terni." mr. eisenberg. can you explain the significance of "terni?" mr. frazier. terni is the location for an italian ordnance plant in italy where rifles are made, and it is apparent that this weapon was made in terni, because it is stamped with that name. mr. eisenberg. and the significance of that crown? mr. frazier. i think that would be just an italian identification mark or proof mark. mr. eisenberg. and are the words "made italy" likely to have been put on the weapon at the time of manufacture or subsequently? mr. frazier. no, sir; the words "made italy" would be stamped on the weapon by a purchaser or an individual desiring to send the weapon to another country, to establish actually its origin. photograph no. is again of the top of the weapon showing the same information-- , "made italy," the crown, the place it was made, and the inscription "caliber . " across the top of the rear sight. photograph no. shows a small circle which appears on the forward end of the receiver, or that portion into which the barrel is screwed, with the words "tni" in the circle, and over these letters is again a small crown. this could be a proof mark or an inspector's stamp. photograph no. is of an inscription on the side of the rear sight which has the appearance of the letter "i," or the letter "l," followed by a capital letter "a," and the capital letter "g," with the numbers " ," and " ," stamped underneath them. i do not know what the significance of that is. it could be, again, an inspector's stamp or a proof mark of some type. photograph no. is made of the cocking piece on the end of the bolt, which gives the word "rocca." this apparently would be the name of the manufacturer of that part of the rifle. photograph no. is an inscription "pg" on the top of the bolt of the weapon. this inscription--i do not know of my own knowledge what that is--but it could be the mark of a manufacturer or a proof mark or an inspector's mark made at the time the handle was made to be welded to the bolt. photograph no. was taken of the bottom of the receiver of the weapon, with the stock removed. it shows the number " ," which could refer again to the year of manufacture, , on the receiver, and at the rear of the photograph a small lettered inscription referring again to an inspector stamp, a proof stamp, of some nature. the identity of this, i do not know. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, i ask that these photographs be admitted as a group under the number . the chairman. you are going to put all of them in under one number? mr. eisenberg. yes. they have the subnumbers on the back, which will differentiate them. the chairman. they will be admitted. (the documents referred to were marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. can you explain why someone might call exhibit a german-made mauser rifle or a mauser bolt-action rifle? mr. frazier. the mauser was one of the earliest, if not the earliest, and the basic bolt-action rifle, from which many others were copied. and since this uses the same type of bolt system, it may have been referred to as a mauser for that reason. mr. eisenberg. does this weapon show--how much use does this weapon show? mr. frazier. the stock is worn, scratched. the bolt is relatively smooth, as if it had been operated several times. i cannot actually say how much use the weapon has had. the barrel is--was not, when we first got it, in excellent condition. it was, i would say, in fair condition. in other words, it showed the effects of wear and corrosion. mr. eisenberg. is this weapon---- the chairman. i didn't get that last. mr. frazier. it showed the effects of wear and corrosion. mr. eisenberg. is this weapon used when it is sold into the united states? mr. frazier. yes, it is a surplus type of weapon. mr. eisenberg. so that it is impossible to attribute any given amount of wear to the last user? mr. frazier. yes, sir; it is impossible. mr. eisenberg. have you measured the dimensions of this rifle assembled, and disassembled? mr. frazier. yes, i have. mr. eisenberg. could you give us that information? mr. frazier. the overall length is . inches. it weighs pounds even. mr. mccloy. with the scope? mr. frazier. yes, with the scope. the chairman. and the sling? mr. frazier. that is with the sling, yes, sir. the sling weighs - / ounces. the stock length is . inches, which is the wooden portion from end to end with the butt plate attached. the barrel and action from the muzzle to the rear of the tang, which is this portion at the rearmost portion of the metal, is . inches. the barrel only is . inches. mr. eisenberg. when you say, "this portion," mr. frazier, i don't think that is coming down clear in the record. i wonder whether you could rephrase that so as to describe the part of the barrel or part of the stock to which you are pointing when you say "tang." mr. frazier. the tang is the rear of the receiver of the weapon into which the rear mounting screw is screwed to hold the rearmost part of the metal action of the weapon into the wooden stock. from the end of that portion to the muzzle of the weapon is . inches. mr. eisenberg. and the length of the longest component when the rifle is dissembled, mr. frazier? mr. frazier. . inches, which is the length of the stock, the wooden portion. mr. eisenberg. can you describe to us the telescopic sight on the rifle in terms of---- mr. mccloy. before you get to the sight, can i ask a question? mr. eisenberg. surely. mr. mccloy. how soon after the assassination did you examine this rifle? mr. frazier. we received the rifle the following morning. mr. mccloy. received it in washington? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. and you immediately made your examination of it then? mr. frazier. we made an examination of it at that time, and kept it temporarily in the laboratory. it was then returned to the dallas police department, returned again to the laboratory--the second time on november th, and has been either in the laboratory's possession or the commission's possession since then. mr. mccloy. when you examined the rifle the first time, you said that it showed signs of some corrosion and wear? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. was it what you would call pitted, were the lands in good shape? mr. frazier. no, sir; the lands and the grooves were worn, the corners were worn, and the interior of the surface was roughened from corrosion or wear. mr. mccloy. was there metal fouling in the barrel? mr. frazier. i did not examine it for that. mr. mccloy. could you say roughly how many rounds you think had been fired since it left the factory, with the condition of the barrel as you found it? mr. frazier. no, sir; i could not, because the number of rounds is not an indication of the condition of the barrel, since if a barrel is allowed to rust, one round will remove that rust and wear the barrel to the same extent as or or rounds just fired through a clean barrel. mr. mccloy. thank you. mr. eisenberg. could you describe the telescopic sight on the rifle? magnification, country of origin? mr. frazier. it is a four-power telescopic sight employing crosshairs in it as a sighting device, in the interior of the scope. it is stamped "optics ordnance incorporated, hollywood california," and under that is the inscription "made in japan." it is a very inexpensive japanese telescopic sight. the mount attached to it was also made in japan. mr. eisenberg. have you removed the mount? mr. frazier. yes, i have. mr. eisenberg. how many holes did you find drilled into the receiver? mr. frazier. there are two holes in the receiver. mr. eisenberg. could you form an opinion as to whether these were original holes or whether new holes--new and larger holes had been formed over the original holes? mr. frazier. normally, the receiver would have no holes at all, and would have to be drilled and tapped for the screws. in the sight itself there normally are three holes, two of which have been enlarged to accommodate the two mounting screws presently holding the mount to the rifle. mr. eisenberg. do you think, based on your experience with types of screws used in mounts, that these were the original screws and the original holes for the screws? mr. frazier. i could not say--i could not answer that specifically. however, they appear to be the same type of screw as is present on the rest of the mount--although they are somewhat larger in size than the remaining hole which is present in the lower portion of the mount. mr. eisenberg. now, i now hand you a rifle which is marked c- . are you familiar with this rifle? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. can you describe it briefly? mr. frazier. it is an identical rifle physically to the rifle commission's exhibit , in that it is the same caliber, . -mm. mannlicher-carcano italian military rifle, model / . mr. eisenberg. did you attempt to determine by use of this rifle whether the scope was mounted on exhibit by the firm which is thought to have sold exhibit ? mr. frazier. would you repeat that, please? mr. eisenberg. yes. did you make an attempt to determine, by use of this c- , whether the firm which had sold exhibit had mounted the scope on exhibit ? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. can you describe how you made that attempt? mr. frazier. we contacted the firm, klein's sporting goods in chicago, and asked them concerning this matter to provide us with a similar rifle mounted in the way in which they normally mount scopes of this type on these rifles, and forward the rifle to us for examination. in this connection, we did inform them that the scope should be in approximately this position on the frame of the weapon. mr. eisenberg. pardon me, mr. frazier. when you say "this position," so that the record is clear could you---- mr. frazier. oh, yes; in the position in which it now is, approximately three-eighths of an inch to the rear of the receiver ring. mr. eisenberg. on the---- mr. frazier. on the c- rifle. when we received the rifle c- , we examined the mount and found that two of the holes had been enlarged, and that screws had been placed through them and threaded into the receiver of the c- rifle. the third hole in the mount had not been used. we also found that an identical scope to the one on the commission's rifle was present on the c- rifle. mr. eisenberg. were the screws used in mounting the c- rifle--in mounting the scope on the c- rifle--type of screws as those used in mounting the scope on exhibit ? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. and the holes were the same dimensions? mr. frazier. yes, they are. and the threads in the holes are the same. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, i would like c- admitted into evidence as commission exhibit . the chairman. it may be admitted. (the article referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) the chairman. at this time i will interrupt to say i must now leave to attend a session of the supreme court, and i will return at the conclusion of the session. in the meantime, mr. mccloy will preside at the commission hearing, and in the event he should be required to leave, mr. mccloy, whatever commissioner is here will conduct the examination in his absence. (at this point, chairman warren withdrew from the hearing room.) mr. eisenberg. have you examined the sling on commission exhibit ? mr. frazier. yes, i did. mr. eisenberg. do you feel that this is--that this sling was originally manufactured as a rifle sling? mr. frazier. no, sir; it is not in any way similar to a normal sling for a rifle. it appears to be a sling from some carrying case, camera bag, musical-instrument strap, or something of that nature. we have made attempts to identify it, with no success. mr. eisenberg. apart from the addition of this sling and mounting of the telescopic sight, have any modifications been made in the c- rifle--in the commission exhibit rifle? mr. frazier. no, sir. mr. mccloy. you would suggest, i gather, mr. frazier, that this is a homemade sling? mr. frazier. yes, sir; it appears to have been cut to length by inserting this strap, or this sling, on the rifle, and then trimming off the excess ends of the two straps to fit. mr. mccloy. how would that broad patch on the sling--how would that be used, in your judgment, in firing the rifle? would it be wrapped around the base of your---- mr. frazier. i find it very difficult to use the rifle with a sling at all. the sling is too short, actually, to do more than put your arm through it. mr. mccloy. you get quite a leverage with that? mr. frazier. yes, sir, you do, in one direction. but it is rather awkward to wrap the forward hand into the sling in the normal fashion. mr. mccloy. this gives a pretty tight---- mr. frazier. it can be used. but i don't feel that actually the position of this broad piece is of too much significance as far as use of the sling goes. mr. mccloy. but certainly the sling would tend to steady the aim, even in this crude form? mr. frazier. oh, yes. mr. mccloy. it would make more easy an offhand shot than if you didn't have a sling? it would make it more accurate? mr. frazier. it would assist more in offhand than any other type of shooting, yes. mr. eisenberg. returning to the scope for a moment, on the basis of the experiment, so to speak, which you had klein's conduct, would you form an opinion as to whether the telescopic sight was mounted on exhibit --was likely to have been mounted--by klein's, or likely to have been mounted subsequently? mr. frazier. well, i could not deduce from that--from the way the scope is mounted--who mounted it. i can only say that the two are mounted in identical fashion. and it is possible that the same person or persons mounted the two scopes. mr. eisenberg. could you briefly explain the operation of this rifle, the bolt action and the clip-feed mechanism? mr. frazier. yes, sir; the weapon is loaded by turning up the bolt handle, drawing the bolt to the rear, and inserting the clip from the top of the weapon, after the clip has been loaded with the number of rounds you desire to load. the maximum number of rounds the clip holds is six. however, the weapon can be loaded with a clip holding , , , , or round. this is done by inserting the clip in the rear portion of the ejection port, and pushing it downwards until it clears the bottom of the bolt. the weapon then is loaded by moving the bolt forward. it picks up one cartridge out of the clip, carries it into the chamber of the weapon, and the bolt is then locked by turning down. to fire the weapon, it is merely necessary to pull the trigger, since the closing of the bolt has cocked the cocking piece on the weapon. mr. eisenberg. can you proceed to show the extraction and ejection mechanism? mr. frazier. yes, sir. the extraction is merely by raising the bolt and drawing it to the rear. when the cartridge is first loaded, the rim on the base of the cartridge is caught under the extractor in the face of the bolt, so that drawing the bolt to the rear draws the fired cartridge or a loaded cartridge if it has not been fired, out of the chamber to the rear, where the opposite side of the cartridge strikes a projection in the ejection port called the ejector. the ejector strikes on the opposite side of the case from the extractor, causing the shell to be thrown out of the weapon on the right-hand side. mr. eisenberg. now, to fire the next shot, is any further action necessary, apart from closing the bolt and pulling the trigger, if remaining cartridges are in the clip? mr. frazier. no, sir. mr. eisenberg. could you pull out the clip and explain any markings you find on it? mr. frazier. the only markings are the manufacturer's markings, "smi," on the base of the clip, and a number, . the significance of that number i am not aware of. it could be a part number or a manufacturer's code number. mr. eisenberg. is there any reason that you can think of why someone might call that a five-shot clip? mr. frazier. no, sir, unless they were unfamiliar with it. there is an area of confusion in that a different type of rifle shooting larger ammunition, such as a . - or a german mauser rifle, uses five-shot clips, and the five-shot clip is the common style or size of clip, whereas this one actually holds six. mr. eisenberg. have you had occasion to purchase ammunition for this rifle? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. does the ammunition come in the clip? mr. frazier. normally it does not. the ammunition that we have purchased for this rifle comes in -shot boxes. it is possible--and i say this as a result of reading advertisements--to buy ammunition for this rifle, and to receive a clip or clips at the same time, but not necessarily part of the same shipment. mr. eisenberg. when you ordered c- , which is now commission exhibit , did you receive a clip with that rifle? mr. frazier. no, sir. mr. eisenberg. would you deduce, therefore, that the clip--that someone wishing to shoot that rifle and use a clip in the rifle would have purchased the clip later? mr. frazier. they would have to acquire it from some source, yes. mr. eisenberg. is it commonly available? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. can you use that rifle without the clip? mr. frazier. yes; you can. mr. mccloy. what is the advantage of the clip? mr. frazier. it permits repeated firing of the weapon without manually loading one shot at a time. mr. mccloy. the only other way you can fire it is by way of manual load? mr. frazier. yes, sir; one shot at a time. mr. mccloy. when you say a six-cartridge clip, could that gun have been fired with the clip fully loaded and another one in the chamber? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. the same as the . - ? mr. frazier. yes, sir; the weapon will hold a maximum of seven. mr. eisenberg. i now hand you a cartridge in an envelope, marked commission exhibit . are you familiar with this cartridge? mr. frazier. yes; i am. i received this cartridge for examination in the fbi laboratory, submitted to me as a cartridge removed from the rifle at the time it was recovered. mr. eisenberg. can you describe that cartridge in terms of name, manufacturer, and country of origin? mr. frazier. it is a . mm. mannlicher-carcano cartridge, manufactured by the western cartridge co., at east alton, ill. it is loaded with a full metal-jacketed bullet of the military type. cartridges of this type which i have examined, having this type of bullet, have bullets weighing to grains. mr. mccloy. when you mentioned that cartridge as being a mannlicher-carcano cartridge, could that be fired, for example, in a mannlicher . schoenauer? mr. frazier. i am not familiar with that. mr. mccloy. that is the normal sporting rifle--that mannlicher schoenauer is the normal . austrian sporting rifle that you buy. i just wondered if it was the same cartridge. mr. frazier. i am sorry. i don't know whether there is a distinction between these two or not. mr. mccloy. i happen to have one of those. and i was just wondering if it is the same cartridge. mr. eisenberg. mr. frazier, i now hand you a series of three cartridge cases. i ask you whether you are familiar with these cartridge cases. mr. frazier. yes; i am. i received these cartridge cases on two different occasions for examination in the laboratory, and comparison with the rifle. mr. eisenberg. do these cases have your mark on them? mr. frazier. yes; they do. each is marked with my initials and the inscription for identification purposes. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, i would like to introduce these cartridge cases into evidence as commission exhibits , and . mr. mccloy. they may be admitted. (the articles referred to were marked commission exhibits nos. , , and and received in evidence.) mr. mccloy. will you introduce evidence to show where they came from? mr. eisenberg. well, sir, the record will show at the conclusion of the hearings where they came from. this witness is able to identify them only as to his examination. mr. mccloy. i understand that. i understand that witness cannot identify them. but i simply asked for the record whether you have evidence to show where they did come from. mr. eisenberg. yes; for the record, these cartridges were found on the sixth floor of the school book depository building. they were found near the southeast corner window--that is, the easternmost window on the southern face of the sixth floor of that building. mr. frazier, are these cartridge cases which have just been admitted into evidence the same type of cartridge--from the same type of cartridge--as you just examined, commission exhibit no. ? mr. frazier. yes; they are. mr. eisenberg. that is, . mm. mannlicher-carcano, manufactured by the western cartridge co.? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. you gave the weight of the bullet which is found in this type of cartridge. could you give us a description of the contour of the bullet, and its length? mr. frazier. the bullet has parallel sides, with a round nose, is fully jacketed with a copper-alloy coating or metal jacket on the outside of a lead core. its diameter is . millimeters. the length--possibly it would be better to put it in inches rather than millimeters. the diameter is . inches, and a length of . , or approximately . inches. mr. mccloy. you say that the diameter is . . did you mean . or . millimeters? mr. frazier. i was looking for that figure on that. it is about . -- . millimeters. the bullet, of course, will be a larger diameter than the bore of the weapon to accommodate the depths of the grooves in the barrel. on the base of the bullet is a crimp ring, or a cannelure, which is located two-tenths of an inch from the base up the bullet and which is / ths of an inch in width--that is, it is a band around the bullet / ths of an inch wide. i believe that is a description of the bullet. mr. eisenberg. have you tested commission exhibit with the type of ammunition you have been looking at to determine the muzzle velocity of that type of ammunition in this weapon? mr. frazier. yes, sir. the tests were run to determine the muzzle velocity of this rifle, using this ammunition, at the naval research laboratory in washington, d.c., on december , , using two different lots of ammunition--lot no. , and lot no. , . i might point out that there were four lots of ammunition manufactured by the western cartridge co., only two of which are available. mr. eisenberg. can you give the results? mr. frazier. possibly i can give the results shot by shot, so the record will show each one, and then give an average for them. mr. eisenberg. fine. mr. frazier. the first shot, lot , , the velocity was . feet per second. shot no. , lot , , velocity , . feet per second. the third shot, velocity--same lot--velocity , . feet per second. the third shot, velocity--and this is lot no. , --velocity was , . feet per second. the fourth shot, lot no. , , was , . feet per second. fifth shot, lot no. , , , . feet per second. the sixth shot, lot , , , . feet per second. an average of all shots of , feet per second. mr. eisenberg. how would you characterize the differences between the muzzle velocities of the various rounds in terms of whether that difference was a large or small difference? mr. frazier. this is a difference well within the manufacturer's accepted standards of velocity variations. they permit in their standard ammunition manual, which is a guide to the entire industry in the united states, a -foot-per-second, plus or minus, variation shot to shot in the same ammunition. mr. eisenberg. have you calculated the muzzle energy of this . millimeter ammunition in this weapon? mr. frazier. it was furnished by letter to the commission. yes, sir--the muzzle energy was calculated on the basis of the average velocity of , feet per second as , foot-pounds. mr. eisenberg. this is a calculation rather than a measurement? mr. frazier. necessarily a calculation, because it is merely a term used to compare one bullet against another rather than for any practical purposes because--because of the bullet's extremely light weight. the bullet's velocity and weight, and gravity enter into the determination of its energy in foot-pounds. mr. eisenberg. is the . millimeter mannlicher-carcano with which we are dealing an accurate type of ammunition as opposed to other types of military ammunition--as compared, i should say, with other types of military ammunition? mr. frazier. i would say it is also accurate. as other types of ammunition the . millimeter cartridge or bullet is a very accurate bullet, and ammunition of this type as manufactured in the united states would give fairly reasonable accuracy. other military cartridges may or may not give accurate results. but the cartridge inherently is an accurate cartridge. mr. eisenberg. is this type of cartridge readily available for purchase? mr. frazier. yes; it is. information we have indicates that million rounds of this ammunition was reimported into this country and placed on sale. mr. eisenberg. commission exhibit no. , the cartridge found in the chamber--i should say, was found in the chamber. do you draw any inference from the fact that the cartridge was found in the chamber? in your experience, does one automatically reload whether or not one intends to fire, or is there a special significance in the fact that the cartridge had been chambered? mr. frazier. i would say no, there would be no inference which i could draw based on human behavior as to why someone would or would not reload a cartridge. normally, if you were--in my experience--shooting at some object, and it was no longer necessary to shoot, you would not reload. you may or may not reload. it would be a normal thing to automatically reload. but not necessarily in every instance. mr. mccloy. do you have any information of your own knowledge as to whether this cartridge was in the chamber or not at the time the rifle was found? mr. frazier. only as furnished to me--it was submitted as having been removed from the rifle by the dallas police department. mr. mccloy. as having been removed from the chamber? mr. frazier. from the chamber of the rifle. mr. mccloy. but you did not remove it yourself? mr. frazier. no, sir. mr. eisenberg. did you make a test to determine the pattern of the cartridge-case ejection of commission exhibit ? mr. frazier. yes, sir; i made two studies in connection with the ejection pattern--one to determine distance and one to determine the angle at which the cartridge cases leave the ejection port. mr. eisenberg. and did you summarize your examination by diagrams? mr. frazier. yes; i did. mr. eisenberg. could you show us those diagrams? mr. frazier. in this diagram---- mr. eisenberg. excuse me just a second, mr. frazier. were these diagrams prepared by you? mr. frazier. yes; they were--not the actual physical diagrams, but the figures on the diagrams were furnished by me to the draftsman. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, may i introduce these diagrams as commission exhibits nos. and ? mr. mccloy. they may be admitted. (the documents referred to were marked commission exhibits nos. and , and were received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. could you give us the results of your tests by using these diagrams, mr. frazier? mr. frazier. yes, sir. in this test, commission exhibit , the diagram illustrates the positions on the floor at which cartridge cases landed after being extracted and ejected from the rifle, commission's exhibit . in the top portion of exhibit , the barrel was held depressed at a -degree angle, and in the lower half of the exhibit it shows the pattern with the barrel held in a horizontal position. each spot marked with a figure on the diagram shows where one cartridge case landed in both instances, and each one is marked with the distance and the angle to which the cartridge case was ejected. with the barrel held in the depressed condition, all of the cartridge cases landed within an -inch circle located degrees to the right front of the rifle. that may be confusing. it was degrees to the right from the line of sight of the rifle and at a distance of inches from the ejection port. now, this circle will not necessarily encompass all cartridge cases ejected from the rifle, since the ejection is determined, not only by the angle of the weapon, but more by the force with which the bolt is operated. a very light force on the bolt can cause the cartridge case to tip gently out and fall at your feet. however, under normal conditions of reloading in a fairly rapid manner, we found the cartridge cases to land in this circle. the same situation is true of the test made with the muzzle in the horizontal condition. all of the cartridge cases landed within a -inch circle, which was located at right angles to the ejection port, or degrees from the line of sight, and at a distance inches from the ejection port. in both of these tests, the ejection port of the weapon was held inches above the floor. in the second test performed, commission exhibit , the test was made to ascertain how high above the ejection port a cartridge case would fly as it was being ejected. after ejecting numerous cartridge cases from the weapon with the barrel held in a depressed condition, it was found that the cartridge cases did not exceed two inches above the level of the ejection port. and with the muzzle held horizontally, it did not exceed inches above the level of the ejection port. mr. eisenberg. in making these tests, was the bolt pulled with a normal degree of rifle pull? mr. frazier. it was pulled with various pulls, to determine what the effect would be with different speeds of the bolt. mr. eisenberg. how did you select the distance above the floor at which the rifle was fired? mr. frazier. we selected a distance which we thought might be typical of a condition which would give an overall picture of the ejection pattern, and not from any basis of previous information as to possibly how the weapon had been fired previously. thirty-two inches happened to be approximately table height, so that we could control the height of the weapon readily. mr. eisenberg. i now hand you three commission exhibits, , , and , which are photographs which have been identified as giving the location of the cartridges--cartridge cases--nos. , , and , on the sixth floor of the school book depository building. i ask you to examine these pictures, and to determine whether if the rifle had been fired from the window shown in these pictures, the location of the cartridge cases is consistent with the results of the tests you ran to determine the ejection patterns. mr. frazier. i would say yes; it is consistent--although the cartridge cases are--two of them--against the wall. there is a stack of boxes fairly near the wall, and the position of the cartridge cases could very well have been affected by the boxes. that is, they could strike the box and bounce for several feet, and they could have bounced back and forth in this small area here and come to rest in the areas shown in the photographs. mr. eisenberg. in making your tests, did you notice much ricochet? mr. frazier. yes; considerable. each time a cartridge case hit the floor, it would bounce anywhere from inches to to feet. mr. mccloy. make a lot of noise? mr. frazier. yes; a clatter. mr. eisenberg. have you tested commission exhibit to determine its accuracy under rapid-fire conditions? mr. frazier. yes; i have. mr. eisenberg. can you describe these tests? mr. frazier. a series of three tests were made. when we first received the rifle, there was not an opportunity to test it at long range, so we tested it at short range. after we had obtained sample bullets and cartridge cases from it, we fired accuracy and speed tests with it. three examiners did the firing, all three being present at the same time. the first tests were made at yards, and shooting at a silhouette target. mr. eisenberg. a silhouette of a man? mr. frazier. a paper silhouette target of a man; yes. possibly you may wish to mark these, to refer to them. mr. eisenberg. these targets were made by you or in your presence? mr. frazier. these are actually copies of the actual targets. i have the actual targets here, if you would rather use those. however, the markings show better on the copies than they do on the actual targets. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, i request permission to introduce the copies for the reasons given, as commission exhibits and . mr. mccloy. you have made these copies, mr. frazier? mr. frazier. well, i had them made. they are actual xerox copies of the original targets, which are black, and do not show the markings placed around the holes. mr. eisenberg. off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. mccloy. back on the record. mr. frazier, you have the original targets that were used in this experiment. mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. were you one of the three that fired? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. can you identify your target as distinguished from the other two? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. do you have the target that you fired? mr. frazier. i fired--yes, i do. however, another examiner also fired at this same target. mr. mccloy. have you made a copy of that--or did you cause a copy of that target to be made? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. and you have that with you? mr. frazier. yes; i do. mr. mccloy. have you marked it yet? mr. eisenberg. no. that would be . mr. mccloy. suppose you identify that copy. mr. eisenberg. this copy that you are presenting to us has initials at the bottom "cc-r-ck"? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. and the numbers and letters d- on the right-hand margin? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. and that has been copied under your supervision? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman? mr. mccloy. that can be admitted as commission exhibit . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. mccloy. now, is commission exhibit an accurate copy of the target which you have--that you fired, and which you presented? mr. frazier. yes; it is. mr. eisenberg. now, you also have a copy here which has the name on it killion, and similar initials, letters, and numbers to the other target. is this an accurate copy which you had prepared? mr. frazier. yes, sir. that was the target fired by charles killion in my presence. mr. eisenberg. may i have this admitted as ? mr. mccloy. it may be admitted. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. this test was performed at yards, did you say, mr. frazier? mr. frazier. yes, sir. and this series of shots we fired to determine actually the speed at which the rifle could be fired, not being overly familiar with this particular firearm, and also to determine the accuracy of the weapon under those conditions. mr. eisenberg. and could you give us the names of the three agents who participated? mr. frazier. yes, sir. charles killion, cortlandt cunningham, and myself. mr. eisenberg. and the date? mr. frazier. november , . mr. eisenberg. how many shots did each agent fire? mr. frazier. killion fired three, cunningham fired three, and i fired three. mr. eisenberg. and do you have the times within which each agent fired the three shots? mr. frazier. yes, sir. killion fired his three shots in nine seconds, and they are shown--the three shots are interlocking, shown on commission exhibit no. . cunningham fired three shots--i know the approximate number of seconds was seven. cunningham's time was approximately seven seconds. mr. eisenberg. can you at a later date confirm the exact time? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. and you will do that by letter to the commission, or if you happen to come back by oral testimony? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. and your time, mr. frazier? mr. frazier. for this series, was six seconds, for my three shots, which also were on the target at which mr. cunningham fired, which is exhibit . mr. eisenberg. could you characterize the dispersion of the shots on the two targets which you have been showing us, and ? mr. frazier. the bullets landed approximately--in killion's target, no. , approximately - / inches high, and inch to the right, in the area about the size of a dime, interlocking in the paper, all three shots. on commission exhibit , cunningham fired three shots. these shots were interlocking, or within an eighth of an inch of each other, and were located approximately inches high and inch to the right of the aiming point. the three shots which i fired were--landed in a three-quarter inch circle, two of them interlocking with cunningham's shots, inches high, and approximately inch to the right of the aiming point. mr. eisenberg. can you describe the second series of tests? mr. frazier. the second test which was performed was two series of three shots at yards, instead of yards. i fired both of these tests, firing them at a cardboard target, in an effort to determine how fast the weapon could be fired primarily, with secondary purpose accuracy. we did not attempt--i did not attempt to maintain in that test an accurate rate of fire. this is the actual target which i fired. mr. eisenberg. and that target has all six holes in it? mr. frazier. yes, sir--two series of three holes, the first three holes being marked with the no. , and the second series being marked no. . mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, i would like this introduced as . mr. mccloy. that will be admitted. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. could you describe for the record the dispersion on the two series? mr. frazier. yes, sir. the first series of three shots were approximately--from to inches high and from to inches to the right of the aiming point, and landed within a -inch circle. these three shots were fired in . seconds. the second series of shots landed--one was about inch high, and the other two about or inches high, and the maximum spread was inches. that series was fired in . seconds. mr. eisenberg. and do you have the date? mr. frazier. that also was on the th of november. mr. eisenberg. same date as the first tests? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. and you performed one more test, i believe? mr. frazier. yes, sir. we fired additional targets at yards on the range at quantico, va., firing groups of three shots. and i have the four targets we fired here. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, i would like these admitted as , , , and . mr. mccloy. they may be admitted. (the documents referred to were marked commission exhibits nos. through , and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. who fired these shots, mr. frazier? mr. frazier. i fired them. mr. eisenberg. can you characterize the dispersion on each of the four targets? mr. frazier. yes, sir. on commission exhibit the three shots landed approximately inches high and within a - / -inch circle, almost on a line horizontally across the target. this target and the other targets were fired on march , at quantico, va. these three shots were fired in . seconds. the second target fired is commission exhibit , consisting of three shots fired in . seconds, which landed in approximately a - / to -inch circle located inches high and or inches to the right of the aiming point. commission exhibit no. is the third target fired, consisting of three shots which landed in a -inch circle located about - / inches high and inches to the right of the aiming point. these three shots were fired in . seconds. and commission exhibit no. , consisting of three shots fired in . seconds, which landed approximately inches high and inches to the right of the aiming point, all within a - / -inch circle. mr. mccloy. the first one is not exactly inches to the right, is it? mr. frazier. no, sir. the center of the circle in which they all landed would be about inches high and inches to the right. mr. eisenberg. mr. frazier, could you tell us why, in your opinion, all the shots, virtually all the shots, are grouped high and to the right of the aiming point? mr. frazier. yes, sir. when we attempted to sight in this rifle at quantico, we found that the elevation adjustment in the telescopic sight was not sufficient to bring the point of impact to the aiming point. in attempting to adjust and sight-in the rifle, every time we changed the adjusting screws to move the crosshairs in the telescopic sight in one direction it also affected the movement of the impact or the point of impact in the other direction. that is, if we moved the crosshairs in the telescope to the left it would also affect the elevation setting of the telescope. and when we had sighted-in the rifle approximately, we fired several shots and found that the shots were not all landing in the same place, but were gradually moving away from the point of impact. this was apparently due to the construction of the telescope, which apparently did not stabilize itself--that is, the spring mounting in the crosshair ring did not stabilize until we had fired five or six shots. mr. eisenberg. pardon me, mr. frazier. have you prepared a diagram of the telescopic sight? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. i wonder whether you could show us that now to help illustrate the point you are making. let me mark that. this diagram was prepared by you? mr. frazier. yes; it was. mr. eisenberg. and illustrates---- mr. frazier. excuse me. the actual diagram was copied by me from a textbook, showing a diagrammatic view of how a telescopic crosshair ring is mounted in a telescope. mr. eisenberg. this is a generalized diagram, rather than a diagram of the specific scope on exhibit ? mr. frazier. yes; it is. however, i have checked the scope on exhibit and found it to be substantially the same as this diagram. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, may i have this admitted as ? mr. mccloy. it may be admitted. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. frazier. commission exhibit no. is a diagrammatic drawing of the manner in which the crosshair ring is mounted in exhibit , showing on the right-hand side of the diagram a circular drawing indicating the outer part of the tube, with an inner circle with a crossed line in it representing the crosshairs in the telescope. there is an elevation-adjusting screw at the top, which pushes the crosshair ring down against a spring located in the lower left-hand portion of the circle, or which allows the crosshair ring to come up, being pushed by the spring on the opposite side of the ring. there is a windage screw on the right-hand side of the scope tube circle which adjusts the crosshair ring laterally for windage adjustments. the diagram at the left side of commission's exhibit shows diagrammatically the blade spring mounted in the telescope tube which causes the ring to be pressed against the adjusting screws. we found in this telescopic sight on this rifle that this ring was shifting in the telescope tube so that the gun could not be sighted-in merely by changing the screws. it was necessary to adjust it, and then fire several shots to stabilize the crosshair ring by causing this spring to press tightly against the screws, to the point that we decided it would not be feasible to completely sight the weapon inasfar as windage goes, and in addition found that the elevation screw could not be adjusted sufficiently to bring the point of impact on the targets down to the sighting point. and, therefore, we left the rifle as soon as it became stabilized and fired all of our shots with the point of impact actually high and to the right. mr. eisenberg. as i understand it, the construction of the scope is such that after the elevation or windage screw has been moved, the scope does not--is not--automatically pushed up by the blade spring as it should be, until you have fired several shots? mr. frazier. yes; that is true--when the crosshairs are largely out of the center of the tube. and in this case it is necessary to move the crosshairs completely up into the upper portion of the tube, which causes this spring to bear in a position out of the ordinary, and for this windage screw to strike the side or the sloping surface of the ring rather than at degrees, as it shows in exhibit . with this screw being off center, both in windage and elevation, the spring is not strong enough to center the crosshair ring by itself, and it is necessary to jar it several times, which we did by firing, to bring it to bear tightly so as to maintain the same position then for the next shots. mr. eisenberg. and because of the difficulty you had stabilizing the crosshair, you did not wish to pursue it to a further refinement, is that correct? mr. frazier. we sighted the scope in relatively close, fired it, and decided rather than fire more ammunition through the weapon, we would use these targets which we had fired. mr. eisenberg. now, once the crosshairs had been stabilized, did you find that they stayed, remained stabilized? mr. frazier. yes; they did. mr. eisenberg. how long do you think the crosshairs would remain stabilized in exhibit , assuming no violent jar? mr. frazier. they should remain stabilized continuously. mr. eisenberg. do you know when the defect in this scope, which causes you not to be able to adjust the elevation crosshair in the manner it should be--do you know when this defect was introduced into the scope? mr. frazier. no; i do not. however, on the back end of the scope tube there is a rather severe scrape which was on this weapon when we received it in the laboratory, in which some of the metal has been removed, and the scope tube could have been bent or damaged. mr. eisenberg. did you first test the weapon for accuracy on november th? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. have you any way of determining whether the defect pre-existed november th? mr. frazier. when we fired on november th, the shots were landing high and slightly to the right. however, the scope was apparently fairly well stabilized at that time, because three shots would land in an area the size of a dime under rapid-fire conditions, which would not have occurred if the interior mechanism of the scope was shifting. mr. eisenberg. but you are unable to say whether--or are you able to say whether--the defect existed before november th? that is, precisely when it was introduced? mr. frazier. as far as to be unable to adjust the scope, actually, i could not say when it had been introduced. i don't know actually what the cause is. it may be that the mount has been bent or the crosshair ring shifted. mr. eisenberg. mr. frazier, when you were running, let's say, the last test, could you have compensated for this defect? mr. frazier. yes; you could take an aiming point low and to the left and have the shots strike a predetermined point. but it would be no different from taking these targets and putting an aiming point in the center of the bullet-impact area. here that would be the situation you would have--an aiming point off to the side and an impact area at the high right corner. mr. eisenberg. if you had been shooting to score bulls-eyes, in a bulls-eye pattern, what would you have--what action, if any, would you have taken, to improve your score? mr. frazier. i would have aimed low and to the left--after finding how high the bullets were landing; you would compensate by aiming low left, or adjusting the mount of the scope in a manner which would cause the hairlines to coincide with the point of impact. mr. eisenberg. how much practice had you had with the rifle before the last series of four targets were shot by you? mr. frazier. i had fired it possibly rounds, to rounds, and in addition had operated the bolt repeatedly. mr. eisenberg. does practice with this weapon--or would practice with this weapon--materially shorten the time in which three shots could be accurately fired? mr. frazier. yes, sir; very definitely. mr. eisenberg. would practice without actually firing the weapon be helpful--that is, a dry-run practice? mr. frazier. that would be most helpful, particularly in a bolt-action weapon, where it is necessary to shift your hand from the trigger area to the bolt, operate the bolt, and go back to the trigger after closing the bolt. mr. eisenberg. based on your experience with the weapon, do you think three shots could be fired accurately within - / seconds if no rest was utilized? mr. frazier. that would depend on the accuracy which was necessary or needed or which you desired. i think you could fire the shots in that length of time, but whether you could place them, say, in a - or -inch circle without either resting or possibly using the sling as a support--i doubt that you could accomplish that. mr. eisenberg. how--these targets at which you fired stationary at yards--how do you think your time would have been affected by use of a moving target? mr. frazier. it would have slowed down the shooting. it would have lengthened the time to the extent of allowing the crosshairs to pass over the moving target. mr. eisenberg. could you give an amount? mr. frazier. approximately second. it would depend on how fast the target was moving, and whether it was moving away from you or towards you or at right angles. mr. eisenberg. do you think you could shorten your time with further practice with the weapon? mr. frazier. oh, yes. mr. eisenberg. could you give us an estimate on that? mr. frazier. i fired three shots in . seconds at yards with approximately a -inch spread, which is the equivalent of a -inch spread at a hundred yards. and i feel that a -inch relative circle could be reduced to inches or even less with considerable practice with the weapon. mr. eisenberg. that is in the . -second time? mr. frazier. yes. i would say from . to seconds, in that area-- . is firing this weapon as fast as the bolt can be operated, i think. mr. eisenberg. i am now going to ask you several hypothetical questions concerning the factors which might have affected the aim of the assassin on november d, and i would like you to make the following assumptions in answering these questions: first, that the assassin fired his shots from the window near which the cartridges were found--that is, the easternmost window on the south face of the sixth floor of the school book depository building, which is feet above the ground, and several more feet above the position at which the car was apparently located when the shots were fired. second, that the length of the trajectory of the first shot was feet, and that the length of the trajectory of the third shot was feet. and third, that the elapsed time between the firing of the first and third shots was - / seconds. based on those assumptions, mr. frazier, approximately what lead would the assassin have had to give his target to compensate for its movement--and here i would disregard any possible defect in the scope. mr. frazier. i would say he would have to lead approximately feet under both such situations. the lead would, of course, be dependent upon the direction in which the object was moving, primarily. if it is moving away from you, then, of course, the actual lead of, say, feet which he would have to lead would be interpreted as a considerably less lead in elevation above the target, because the target will move the feet in a direction away from the shooter, and the apparent lead then would be cut to one foot or inches or inches or something of that nature, due to the movement of the individual. mr. eisenberg. have you made calculations to achieve the figures you gave? mr. frazier. i made the calculations, but i don't have them with me. mr. eisenberg. could you supply these to us, either in further testimony or by letter, mr. frazier? mr. frazier. i have one object here, a diagram which will illustrate that lead, if you would like to use that. this is drawn to scale from those figures which you quoted as building height, and distances of feet and feet. mr. eisenberg. for the record, these figures are approximations of the figures believed to be involved in the assassination. will you supply the data at a later date? mr. frazier. yes; i can furnish that. mr. eisenberg. may i have permission to introduce this as ? mr. mccloy. that will be admitted. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. could you show the lead in that diagram, mr. frazier? mr. frazier. in commission exhibit , it shows a triangular diagram with the vertical line on the left-hand side illustrating the height of the building. the figures of a -foot building height plus---- mr. eisenberg. that is height of the muzzle above the ground? mr. frazier. no--window sill-- -foot window sill height above the ground, with an assumed -foot height in addition to accommodate the height of the rifle above the possible--the possible height of the rifle above the window sill. the horizontal line extends outward from the building to a small rectangular block, and then a sloping line illustrates a -foot slope from the -foot point to the -foot point. (at this point, representative boggs entered the hearing room.) mr. frazier. the time of flight of the bullet of approximately / ths of a second and, again, it was necessary to assume--the time of flight of the bullet from the window to this first location of feet is approximately / ths of a second, which means a -foot lead on the target. that is, the target would move feet in that interval of time, thereby necessitating shooting slightly ahead of the target to hit your aiming point. that has been diagrammatically illustrated by a -foot distance laid off on this rectangular block here, and two lines, very fine lines, drawn back towards the window area. the right-hand side of commission's shows the same rectangular block, again with two lines drawn to it, one illustrating the point of aim and the other the amount of lead which would be necessary to strike an object aimed at which was moving, according to the time of flight of the projectile. mr. eisenberg. and you calculated the speed of the car by translating the figures on total time elapsed between first and third shots? mr. frazier. yes, sir. the time--the speed of the moving object was calculated on the basis of an assumed . -second interval for a distance of feet, which figures out mathematically to be . miles per hour. mr. eisenberg. now, you said before that in order to give this -foot lead, you would have to aim inches--for a target going away from you, you would have to aim inches above the target, or in front of the target. mr. frazier. feet in front of the target, which would interpolate into a much lower actual elevation change. mr. eisenberg. the elevation change would be inches, is that it? mr. frazier. well, no. it would be on the order of to inches. mr. eisenberg. to inches? mr. frazier. yes. mr. eisenberg. what was your -inch figure? mr. frazier. i don't recall. mr. eisenberg. but it is to inches in elevation? representative boggs. may i ask a question? using that telescopic lens, how would you aim that rifle to achieve that distinction? mr. frazier. well, it would be necessary to hold the crosshairs an estimated distance off the target, of say, inches over the intended target, so what when the shot was fired the crosshairs should be located about inches over your target, and in the length of time that the bullet was in the air and the length of time the object was moving, the object would move into actually, the path of the bullet in approximately / th to / ths of a second. mr. eisenberg. so that if the target of the assassin was the center of the president's head, and he wanted to give a correct lead, where would he have aimed, if we eliminate the possibility of errors introduced by other factors? mr. frazier. he would aim from to inches--approximately inches, i would say, above the president's head, which would be actually inches above his aiming point at the center of the head. mr. eisenberg. how difficult is it to give this--a lead of this size--to this type of target? mr. frazier. it would not be difficult at all with a telescopic sight, because your target is enlarged four times, and you can estimate very quickly in a telescopic sight, inches or feet or lead of any desired amount. mr. eisenberg. would it be substantially easier than it would be with an open or peep sight? mr. frazier. yes. it would be much more difficult to do with the open iron sights, the notched rear sight and the blade front sight, which is on exhibit . mr. eisenberg. now, you have been able to calculate the precise amount of lead which should be given, because you have been given figures. if you had been in the assassin's position, and were attempting to give a correct lead, what lead do you think you would have estimated as being the necessary lead? mr. frazier. it would have been a very small amount, in the neighborhood of a -inch lead. mr. eisenberg. as opposed to the or inches? mr. frazier. as opposed to about inches, yes. mr. eisenberg. what would the consequence of the mistake in assumption as to lead be--that is, if you gave a -inch lead rather than the correct lead? mr. frazier. it would be a difference of a -inch variation in the point of impact on the target. mr. eisenberg. now, if you had aimed at the center of the president's head, and given a -inch lead, again eliminating other errors, where would you have hit, if you hit accurately? mr. frazier. it would be inches below the center of his head--from the top--it would be not the actual center from the back, but the center would be located high. the bullet would strike at possibly the base of the skull. mr. eisenberg. now, suppose you had given no lead at all and aimed at that target and aimed accurately. where would the bullet have hit? mr. frazier. it would hit the base of the neck--approximately inches below the center of the head. mr. eisenberg. mr. frazier, would you have tried to give a lead at all, if you had been in that position? mr. frazier. at that range, at that distance, to feet, with this rifle and that telescopic sight, i would not have allowed any lead--i would not have made any correction for lead merely to hit a target of that size. mr. mccloy. may i ask a question? in your experimentation, in your firing of those shots that you have testified to a little while back, when you fired the first shot, was the shot in the chamber, or did you have to push it into the chamber by use of the bolt? mr. frazier. this was fired with a loaded chamber, and timed from the time of this first shot until the last shot. mr. mccloy. did you shoot offhand or did you shoot with a rest? mr. frazier. we shot with a rest, both the other individuals and myself, on each occasion, with one arm resting on a bench or a table. mr. mccloy. were you prone, or were you standing up? mr. frazier. well, we were sitting, actually, sitting or kneeling, in order to bring the arm down to the rest we were using. mr. mccloy. one other question. you keep referring to, and the questions kept referring to, "lead." by "lead," in this instance, you would mean height above the aiming point rather than---- mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. to the right, let's say, of the aiming point? mr. frazier. yes, sir; that is correct. mr. mccloy. because it was a going away shot? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. that is all. representative boggs. may i ask a question? where did you conduct these tests? mr. frazier. the targets were fired both on the indoor range in the fbi range here in washington and the -yard tests were fired at the quantico, va., fbi ranges. representative boggs. have any tests--have there been any simulated tests in the building in texas? mr. frazier. i don't know, sir. representative boggs. but the fbi has not conducted any? mr. frazier. not to my knowledge. there may have been measurements and things of that nature taken, but i don't know. representative boggs. now, in these tests, was there any difficulty about firing this rifle three times within the space or period of time that has been given to the commission-- seconds, i think. mr. frazier. well, let me say this. i fired the rifle three times, in accordance with that system of timing it from the first shot with the chamber loaded until the last shot occurred--three times in . seconds, . seconds, . seconds, . , . , and another one a little over , or in that neighborhood. the tenth of a second variation could very easily be as a result of the timing procedure used. a reflex of just not stopping the stopwatch in a tenth of a second. representative boggs. you were firing at a simulated target? mr. frazier. these targets previously introduced, or copies of the targets, are those which we actually fired. representative boggs. my questions are really a followup of the chairman's question. these practices--were you just practicing for time, or were you practicing under conditions similar to those existing in dallas at the time of the assassination? mr. frazier. the tests we ran were for the purposes of determining whether we could fire this gun accurately in a limited amount of time, and specifically to determine whether it could be fired accurately in seconds. now, we assumed the seconds empirically--that is, we had not been furnished with any particular time interval. later we were furnished with a time interval of . seconds. however, i have no independent knowledge--had no independent knowledge of the time interval or the accuracy. but we merely fired it to demonstrate the results from rapidly firing the weapon, reloading the gun and so on, in a limited time. representative boggs. were there other tests conducted to determine the accuracy of the weapon and so on? mr. frazier. no, sir--only the rapid-fire accuracy tests were fired by the fbi. representative boggs. there is no reason to believe that this weapon is not accurate, is there? mr. frazier. it is a very accurate weapon. the targets we fired show that. representative boggs. that was the point i was trying to establish. mr. frazier. this exhibit is a target fired, showing that the weapon will, even under rapid-fire conditions, group closely--that is, one shot with the next. representative boggs. how many shots in the weapon? five? mr. mccloy. the clip takes six itself. you can put a seventh in the chamber. it could hold seven, in other words. but the clip is only a six-shot clip. representative boggs. was the weapon fully loaded at the time of the assassination? mr. mccloy. i don't know how many shells--three shells were picked up. mr. eisenberg. off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. mccloy. back on the record. mr. eisenberg. mr. frazier, turning back to the scope, if the elevation crosshair was defective at the time of the assassination, in the same manner it is now, and no compensation was made for this defect, how would this have interacted with the amount of lead which needed to be given to the target? mr. frazier. well, may i say this first. i do not consider the crosshair as being defective, but only the adjusting mechanism does not have enough tolerance to bring the crosshair to the point of impact of the bullet. as to how that would affect the lead--the gun, when we first received it in the laboratory and fired these first targets, shot high and slightly to the right. if you were shooting at a moving target from a high elevation, relatively high elevation, moving away from you, it would be necessary for you to shoot over that object in order for the bullet to strike your intended target, because the object during the flight of the bullet would move a certain distance. the fact that the crosshairs are set high would actually compensate for any lead which had to be taken. so that if you aimed with this weapon as it actually was received at the laboratory, it would be necessary to take no lead whatsoever in order to hit the intended object. the scope would accomplish the lead for you. i might also say that it also shot slightly to the right, which would tend to cause you to miss your target slightly to the right. mr. eisenberg. now, on that last question, did you attempt to center the windage crosshair, to sight-in the windage crosshair? mr. frazier. we attempted to, and found that it was changing--the elevation was changing the windage. so we merely left the windage as it was. mr. eisenberg. can you say conclusively that the windage crosshair could not be centered in, sighted-in? mr. frazier. no, sir. i would say that the windage could have been centered in the telescope to bring the windage to the aiming line. mr. eisenberg. so that--and if that had been done, then you would not have this problem of dispersion to the right? mr. frazier. that's true. mr. eisenberg. now, turning to---- representative boggs. excuse me just a moment. do you have any opinion on whether or not the sight was deliberately set that way? mr. frazier. no, sir; i do not. and i think i must say here that this mount was loose on the rifle when we received it. and apparently the scope had even been taken off of the rifle, in searching for fingerprints on the rifle. so that actually the way it was sighted-in when we got it does not necessarily mean it was sighted-in that way when it was abandoned. mr. eisenberg. carrying this question a little bit further on the deliberateness of the sighting-in, the problem with the elevation crosshair is built into the mounting of the scope, is that correct? mr. frazier. yes. the mount is not screwed to the rifle in such a fashion that it points the scope at the target closely enough to permit adjusting the crosshair to accurately sight-in the rifle. representative boggs. one other question, then. it is possible, is it not, to so adjust the telescopic sight to compensate for that change in the target? mr. frazier. oh, yes. you can accomplish that merely by putting shims under the front of the scope and over the back of the scope to tip the scope in the mount itself, to bring it into alinement. representative boggs. so an accomplished person, accustomed to using that weapon, anticipating a shot of that type, might very well have made such an adjustment prior to using the rifle; isn't that so? mr. frazier. if it were necessary; yes. there were no shims in the weapon, either under the mount, where it screws to the weapon, or in the two mounting rings, when we received it in the laboratory. mr. eisenberg. do you have any shims with you, mr. frazier? mr. frazier. yes. when we received the weapon yesterday, there were shims mounted in the rifle. the one under the front end of the mount is in this envelope. representative boggs. but they were not there when you received it originally? mr. frazier. no, sir. these were placed there by some other individual. mr. eisenberg. for the record, these were placed by the ballistics laboratory of the army, a representative of which will testify later. now, turning to another possible source of error in aim, mr. frazier, if a rifle such as exhibit is sighted-in with the use of a target at a given distance, and it is aimed at a target which is further away or closer than the target which was used for sighting-in purposes, will any error be introduced by reason of the fact that the target is further or closer away than the sighting-in target? mr. frazier. yes, it will, because the bullet in leaving the muzzle follows a curved path rather than a straight path, and in order to hit a specific target at a specific range, it is necessary for the bullet to travel up and drop down to the target, rather than have the bore pointed right at the target at the time of discharge. mr. eisenberg. can you calculate the amount of error which would be introduced by a specific projectile? mr. frazier. yes. mr. eisenberg. have you made such calculations? mr. frazier. i have taken calculations for similar weight and velocity bullets from ballistics tables, which bullets approximate the velocity of the . mm. bullet and the weight of that bullet as fired from . mr. eisenberg. are these results affected by the rifle which is employed, or do they depend upon the missile? mr. frazier. they depend upon the weight and shape of the missile and the velocity, but not upon the weapon. mr. eisenberg. could you give us the results of these calculations? mr. frazier. yes, sir; if you, for instance, take this rifle with a telescopic sight and sight it in for feet--that is, the bullet will strike where you are looking when you are shooting at feet--at feet the bullet will be above the line of sight approximately one-quarter of an inch, and at feet it will be approximately one-quarter of an inch below the line of sight. that is accomplished because the bullet is still coming up at feet, it crosses the line of sight, and does not descend again to it until you come to the sighting-in distance of feet. if you sighted-in to strike at feet, the bullet at feet would be just at the line of sight--that is, on its way up would just cross the line of sight at about feet. it would be one inch high at feet, and approximately one and one-eighth inches high at feet. it would, of course, drop back down to the point of aim at feet. if you sighted-in at feet, then at feet it would be approximately one-half inch high. at feet it would be inches high, and at feet it would be approximately inches high. representative boggs. is this a stationary target? mr. frazier. yes, this is shooting from a rest at a stationary target. representative boggs. this is just a normal---- mr. frazier. this is just the trajectory of the bullet. representative boggs. i understand. mr. frazier. as calculated---- mr. mccloy. putting it another way, what would be the drop of the bullet at a hundred yards if you aim point-blank straight at that target? mr. frazier. assuming no sighting or anything, the bullet would drop about . inches from the line of the bore at yards. representative boggs. . inches? mr. frazier. yes, sir. representative boggs. but now the telescopic sight at a hundred yards would correct that? mr. frazier. yes, sir. actually, you would sight so that the muzzle is tipped up slightly with reference to the sight. mr. eisenberg. the error would be introduced if you shot at a target which is closer or further away than the sighting-in target; is that correct? mr. frazier. yes, that's right. mr. eisenberg. would you characterize these errors as material? mr. frazier. no, sir; i would not--unless you began shooting at distances well beyond your sighting-in point--then the amount of variation increases very rapidly. mr. eisenberg. what would be the usual minimum distance you use for sighting-in a weapon such as exhibit ? mr. frazier. it would vary from place to place depending upon shooting conditions, and i would say it would seldom be sighted-in for less than or yards. mr. eisenberg. so that if the shots involved in the assassination were fired at feet and feet respectively, they would be shorter than the sighting-in distance and therefore not materially affected by the trajectory characteristics, is that correct? mr. frazier. that is correct, yes. mr. eisenberg. now, based upon the characteristics of exhibit , and the ammunition it employs, and based upon your experience with the weapon, would you consider it to have been a good choice for the commission of a crime such as the assassination? mr. frazier. yes, sir; i would. mr. eisenberg. can you explain that? mr. frazier. yes. any rifle, regardless of its caliber, would be a good choice if it would shoot accurately. mr. eisenberg. and did you find this shot accurately? mr. frazier. yes, sir. representative boggs. would you consider the shots difficult shots--talking about the shots from the sixth-floor window to the head of the president and to governor connally? mr. frazier. no, sir; i would not under the circumstances--a relatively slow-moving target, and very short distance, and a telescopic sight. representative boggs. you are not answering that as an expert. mr. frazier. from my own experience in shooting over the years, when you shoot at feet or feet, which is less than a hundred yards, with a telescopic sight, you should not have any difficulty in hitting your target. representative boggs. putting my question another way, you would not have to be an expert marksman to accomplish this objective? mr. frazier. i would say no, you certainly would not. representative boggs. and a man is a relatively large target, is he not? mr. frazier. yes, sir; i would say you would have to be very familiar with the weapon to fire it rapidly, and do this--hit this target at those ranges. but the marksmanship is accomplished by the telescopic sight. i mean it requires no training at all to shoot a weapon with a telescopic sight once you know that you must put the crosshairs on the target and that is all that is necessary. mr. eisenberg. how does the recoil of this weapon compare with the recoil of the average military rifle? mr. frazier. considerably less. the recoil is nominal with this weapon, because it has a very low velocity and pressure, and just an average-size bullet weight. mr. eisenberg. would that trend to improve the shooter's marksmanship? mr. frazier. under rapid-fire conditions, yes. mr. eisenberg. would that make it a better choice than a more powerfully recoiling weapon for the type of crime which was committed? mr. frazier. for shooting rapidly, this would be a much better choice, because the recoil does not throw the muzzle nearly so far off the target, it does not jar the shooter nearly so much, as a higher-powered rifle, such as a . / or a . winchester, or a german mm. mauser, for instance, or one of the other military-type weapons available. mr. eisenberg. is the killing power of the bullets essentially similar to the killing power at these ranges--the killing power of the rifles you have named? mr. frazier. no, sir. mr. eisenberg. how much difference is there? mr. frazier. the higher velocity bullets of approximately the same weight would have more killing power. this has a low velocity, but has very adequate killing power with reference to humans, because it is a military--it is an established military weapon. representative boggs. this is a military weapon, is it not? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. that is designed to kill a human being. representative boggs. exactly. mr. eisenberg. unless there are further questions on the weapon, i am going to move into the area of the identification of the cartridge cases and the bullets. mr. mccloy. i may say i have to leave at twelve o'clock for a twelve-fifteen appointment. i will be back this afternoon. mr. eisenberg. mr. frazier, returning to the cartridge cases which were marked earlier into evidence as commission exhibits , , and , and which, as i stated earlier for the record, had been found next to the window of the sixth floor of the texas school book depository, can you tell us when you received those cartridge cases? mr. frazier. yes, sir; i received the first of the exhibits, and , on november , . they were delivered to me by special agent vincent drain of the dallas fbi office. and the other one i received on november , , which was delivered by special agents vincent drain and warren de brueys of the dallas office. mr. eisenberg. after receiving these cartridge cases, did you clean them up or in any way prepare them for examination? mr. frazier. yes. the bases were cleaned of a paint which was placed on them by the manufacturer. in spots this red lacquer on the base of the case was overlapping the head of the case where some of the microscopic marks were located, and some of that color was taken off. mr. eisenberg. why is that lacquer put on the cartridge cases? mr. frazier. it seals the primer area against moisture. mr. eisenberg. were there any other changes made in the preparation of the cartridge cases? mr. frazier. no, sir. mr. eisenberg. you have examined the cartridge cases previously. are they in the same condition now that they were when you received them in the laboratory except for the cleaning of the lacquer? mr. frazier. yes, sir; they are. mr. eisenberg. after receiving the cartridge cases, did you examine them to determine whether they had been fired in commission exhibit ? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. when did you make the examinations? mr. frazier. on the dates i mentioned, that is, november , , and november , . mr. eisenberg. and what were your conclusions, mr. frazier? mr. frazier. i found all three of the cartridge cases had been fired in this particular weapon. mr. eisenberg. can you describe the examination which you conducted to reach these conclusions? mr. frazier. the first step was to fire test cartridge cases in this rifle to pick up the microscopic marks which are left on all cartridge cases fired in this weapon by the face of the bolt. then those test cartridge cases were mounted on a comparison microscope, on the right-hand side, and on the left-hand side of the comparison microscope was mounted one of the three submitted cartridge cases, so that you could magnify the surfaces of the test and the evidence and compare the marks left on the cartridge cases by the bolt face and the firing pin of the rifle. (at this point, mr. mccloy left the hearing room.) mr. eisenberg. i now hand you two cartridge cases, and ask you whether you can identify these cartridge cases? mr. frazier. yes, sir; these are the two cartridge cases we fired for test purposes in exhibit . mr. eisenberg. do they have your mark on them? mr. frazier. yes, they do. mr. eisenberg. commissioner boggs, may i introduce these as ? representative boggs. they may be admitted. (the items referred to were marked commission exhibit no. for identification and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. these were the only two cartridge cases fired as tests in exhibit --as tests for the purpose of identification of the cartridge cases which you examined before, , , and ? mr. frazier. yes, sir; these two were used in those tests. there were many other cartridge cases fired, but not for that purpose. mr. eisenberg. can you explain how you are able to come to a conclusion that a cartridge case was fired in a particular weapon to the exclusion of all other weapons? mr. frazier. yes, sir; during the manufacture of a weapon, there are certain things done to the mechanism of it, which are by machine or by filing, by grinding, which form the parts of the weapon into their final shape. these machining and grinding and filing operations will mark the metal with very fine scratches or turning marks and grinding marks in such a way that there will be developed on the surface of the metal a characteristic pattern. this pattern, because it is made by these accidental machine-type operations, will be characteristic of that particular weapon, and will not be reproduced on separate weapons. it may be a combination of marks that--the face of the bolt may be milled, then it may be in part filed to smooth off the corners, and then, as a final operation, it may be polished, or otherwise adjusted during the hand fitting operation, so that it does have its particular pattern of microscopic marks. the bolt face of the rifle i have photographed and enlarged in this photograph to show the types of marks i was referring to. mr. eisenberg. you took this photograph yourself, and it is a photograph of the bolt face of the rifle? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. may i have this introduced as ? representative boggs. it may be admitted. (the photograph referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. what is the magnification of this bolt-face photograph? mr. frazier. approximately diameters. mr. eisenberg. could you slip out the bolt of the rifle so we could see how it compares, and show us the part of the bolt which is photographed? mr. frazier. orienting the photograph with the writing at the bottom, orients the bolt also, as it comes out of the rifle--with the slot shown as a groove on the bottom of the bolt. then the extractor on the bolt, is the area shown at the left side of the photograph, as you view it--the actual bolt face itself is inset into the bolt below the surface of the extractor, and a supporting shoulder around it, and in the center, of course, is the firing-pin hole and the firing pin. the marks produced during manufacture are the marks seen on the bolt face; filing marks, machining marks of the various types, even forging marks or casting marks if the bolt happens to be forged or cast. and then variations which occur in these marks during the life of the weapon are very important in identification, because many of the machining marks can be flattened out, can be changed, by merely a grain of sand between the face of the cartridge case and the bolt at the time a shot is fired, which will itself scratch and dent the bolt face. so the bolt face will pick up a characteristic pattern of marks which are peculiar to it. the same is true of extractors and ejectors. they are in turn machined and will have a pattern of marks or scratches on their surfaces which will mark cartridge cases in the same manner each time. the comparison we made was of the marks appearing in this photograph, , in fairly close proximity to the firing pin hole, since that is the area that the primer in the head of the cartridge case comes in contact with. the primer in a cartridge case normally takes marks more readily than the surrounding brass portion of the cartridge case, which is a considerably harder metal and is not impressed with these marks as readily. the three cartridge cases, , , and , were compared---- mr. eisenberg. is that , , and ? mr. frazier. i am sorry--yes, , , and . these three cartridge cases were placed one at a time on the comparison microscope, and the surfaces having the breech-face marks or the bolt marks were compared with those on the test cartridge cases, exhibit . as a result of comparing the pattern of microscopic markings on the test cartridge cases and those marks on exhibits , , and , both of the face of the bolt and the firing pin, i concluded that these three had been fired in this particular weapon. representative boggs. who manufactured these cartridges? mr. frazier. western cartridge co., east alton, ill. representative boggs. they manufacture cartridges and bullets for all manner of rifles? mr. frazier. yes, they do. representative boggs. this is not--this rifle is not common in the united states, is it? mr. frazier. it is fairly common now, but at the time it was manufactured or used primarily it was not. it was imported into this country as surplus military equipment, and has been advertised quite widely. representative boggs. these three cartridge--these three shells that you had were the same as the live ones that were found there, were they not? mr. frazier. there was one live cartridge found. they are identical. representative boggs. and the live one was manufactured also by---- mr. frazier. yes, the western cartridge co. it bears the head stamp "wco" and " . . mm." representative boggs. these are not difficult to obtain? you can buy them anywhere? mr. frazier. well, you can buy them from mail-order houses primarily, or a few gun shops that have accumulated a supply by ordering them. the information we have is that two million rounds were imported into the united states in one lot, one shipment--and they have been transmitted over the country and are for sale by several different surplus gun shops--used guns--mail-order houses and places of that nature--and gunsmiths, and firearms shops sell this ammunition. representative boggs. go ahead. mr. eisenberg. mr. frazier, what is the basis of the statement you made earlier that no two bolt faces would be the same? mr. frazier. because the marks which are placed on any bolt face are accidental in nature. that is, they are not placed there intentionally in the first place. they are residual to some machining operation, such as a milling machine, in which each cutter of the milling tool cuts away a portion of the metal; then the next tooth comes along and cuts away a little more, and so on, until the final surface bears the combination of the various teeth of the milling cutter. in following that operation, then, the surface is additionally scratched--until you have numerous--we call them microscopic characteristics, a characteristic being a mark which is peculiar to a certain place on the bolt face, and of a certain shape, it is of a certain size, it has a certain contour, it may be just a little dimple in the metal, or a spot of rust at one time on the face of the bolt, or have occurred from some accidental means such as dropping the bolt, or repeated use having flattened or smoothed off the surface of the metal. mr. eisenberg. why doesn't a series of the same machines, or repeated use of the same machines, cause the same results, apart from future accidental markings? mr. frazier. in some instances a certain type of cutter will duplicate a certain pattern of marks. in general you will find for a milling cutter a circular mark. and you may find the same pattern of circles. but that milling cutter does not actually cut the steel; it tears it out, it chips it out, and the surface of the metal then is rough--even though the circle is there, the circle is not a smooth circle, but it is a result of tearing out the metal, and you will have a very rough surface. when magnified sufficiently, you can detect the difference even between two similarly milled surfaces because of the minor variations in the cutting operation. mr. eisenberg. have you had occasion to examine such similarly-milled surfaces? mr. frazier. oh, yes; many times. mr. eisenberg. would you go into detail on that? mr. frazier. well, part of my work in the laboratory is dealing with tool-marks of all types, from drills, mills, files, cutting instruments, and so on. and when you are dealing with filing marks or milling marks and so on, it is sometimes possible to identify a particular mill as having made a certain mark on the basis of the grinding marks on that particular mill. but such as a case like this, where the cutting marks have now been altered through use of the weapon and corrosion, or in wear or in filing, some of the original marks are removed, and other marks are in their place, until eventually you reach a condition where that bolt face will be entirely different from any other bolt face. it is a matter actually--when you get down to the basis of it, it is a matter of a mathematical impossibility in the realm of human experience for any two things to ever be exactly alike. mr. eisenberg. that is because the original markings will not be exactly alike, and then you have added accidental markings on top of the original ones? mr. frazier. that is right; yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. returning for a moment to the original markings, as i understand it, you have worked with the tools themselves and the impressions the tools themselves leave, as opposed to a tooled surface, such as this. mr. frazier. i have worked with both. in other words, in comparing tool-marks, you examine not only the tool, but the marks they produce. mr. eisenberg. and in working with these tools, as i understand your testimony, you have found that the markings which a tool leaves, which the same tool leaves, will be distinctive. mr. frazier. that is true, yes. when it is a scrape or an impression from its surface, or something of that nature, it can be very readily identified. but if it is a drill or something of that nature, where you have a tearing operation, then it is not readily identified, but it occasionally can be identified. mr. eisenberg. well, how many such examinations do you think you have made? mr. frazier. thousands of them. mr. eisenberg. have you noticed whether the marks left by a given tool--that you have examined--change over the course of the use of the tool? mr. frazier. yes, they change very rapidly when a tool is used to cut a hard object. mr. eisenberg. could you elaborate on what you mean by "very rapidly"? mr. frazier. well, for instance, when using a pry bar, for example, one insertion of a pry bar into the hard insulation of a safe, with pressure applied to it can change the entire blade of the tool to the extent that you could not identify a succession of marks, because of the abrasion by the insulation. but that same tool, used to mark a soft steel or brass or copper, could make mark after mark without changing, or only a small portion of it may change with each impression. or it may gradually change over a period of time. mr. eisenberg. now, is the metal in the bolt face a hard metal or a soft metal? mr. frazier. i would say it was hard metal---- mr. eisenberg. well---- mr. frazier. with reference to copper or other softer metals--it is a steel. i could not say how hard it actually is. mr. eisenberg. what will the effect of the metal used in the bolt face be upon the tool which is used to finish it off, cut it and finish it off? mr. frazier. the tool will gradually wear out. mr. eisenberg. well, will the tool leave different marks on the end of the bolt face from one bolt to the very next bolt face? mr. frazier. oh, yes; that very often happens. the tool is worn out or the small cuttings get underneath the edge, between the tool, and nick the edge of the tool, so that the tool will gradually change over a period of time. the cutting edge--the amount of change depends upon the amount of wear, the heat involved, and the hardness of the metal--the relative hardness of the metal. mr. eisenberg. will that particular change be noticed invariably in two consecutive bolt faces? mr. frazier. no, sir. mr. eisenberg. so what is the genesis of the difference in the two consecutive bolt faces as they come from the manufacturer? mr. frazier. the change, as i said, depends on the bolt you are using. it does not always take place, because some bolts are made of a very soft metal, and they will not necessarily change a machining tool to that extent. mr. eisenberg. but the markings, you said, would be different on two consecutive bolt faces? mr. frazier. oh, yes. mr. eisenberg. and if the tool is not changed, what is the origin of the difference between the markings? mr. frazier. there are other accidental markings placed there during the machining operation. mr. eisenberg. could you describe that? mr. frazier. for instance, as the blade of a milling machine travels around a surface, it takes off actually a dust--it is not actually a piece of metal--it scrapes a little steel off in the form of a dust--or a very fine powder or chip--that tooth leaves a certain pattern of marks--that edge. that milling cutter may have a dozen of these edges on its surface, and each one takes a little more. gradually you wear the metal down, you tear it out actually until you are at the proper depth. those little pieces of metal, as they are traveling around, can also scratch the face of the bolt--unless they are washed away. so that you may have accidental marks from that source, just in the machining operation. now, there are two types of marks produced in a cutting operation. one, from the nicks along the cutting edge of the tool, which are produced by a circular operating tool--which produce very fine scratches in a circular pattern. each time the tool goes around, it erases those marks that were there before. and when the tool is finally lifted out, you have a series of marks which go around the surface which has been machined, and you will find that that pattern of marks, as this tool goes around, will change. in one area, it will be one set of marks--and as you visually examine the surface of the metal, these very fine marks will extend for a short distance, then disappear, and a new mark of a new type will begin and extend for a short distance. the entire surface, then, will have a--be composed of a series of circles, but the individual marks seen in the microscope will not be circular, will not form complete circles around the face of the bolt. mr. eisenberg. have you had occasion to examine two consecutive bolt faces from a factory? mr. frazier. oh, yes. mr. eisenberg. and what did you find on that examination? mr. frazier. there would be no similarity in the individual microscopic characteristics between the two bolt faces. mr. eisenberg. there actually was none? mr. frazier. no, there was none. mr. eisenberg. in the bolt face with which we are dealing, exhibit , can you say from inspection whether the markings on that bolt face are predominantly the accidental markings introduced subsequent to manufacture, or the markings of the manufacture? mr. frazier. i would say that these were filing marks for the most part which were made during manufacture, some of which have been obliterated and changed through use--possibly corrosion. mr. eisenberg. mr. frazier, taking exhibit , did you prepare a photograph of this exhibit---- mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. compared with the test cartridge case? mr. frazier. yes, sir; this is the photograph, showing the test cartridge case from exhibit on the right and the cartridge case on the left. mr. eisenberg. this was prepared by you or under your supervision? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman? representative boggs. it may be admitted. (the item referred to was marked commission exhibit no. and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. now, that is marked on the left c- , and on the right, c- . mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. and the left-hand photograph is a photograph of what? mr. frazier. of the cartridge case . mr. eisenberg. that is the actual fired case? mr. frazier. yes, sir; it shows just a portion of the primer, and a very small portion of the firing-pin impression. mr. eisenberg. and the right-hand side of that photograph, marked c- ? mr. frazier. it is a test cartridge case, fired in the rifle exhibit . mr. eisenberg. what is the magnification, mr. frazier? mr. frazier. approximately diameters. mr. eisenberg. and is that magnification equal on both sides of the picture? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. did you make your identification of exhibit , that is the identification of that exhibit as having been fired in the rifle , on the basis of your examination under the microscope, or on the basis of the photograph? mr. frazier. under the microscope. the photograph has no relationship whatsoever to the examination. mr. eisenberg. can you explain that? mr. frazier. the examination is made microscopically through the use of your eyes, and your eyes will record depths and shapes to a much greater extent than can be shown in a photograph. so that the examination and comparison is made of these irregular surfaces mentally, rather than mechanically by any means. the photograph is taken primarily to illustrate the types of marks found and their location, relatively, on the specimen. representative boggs. we will have to adjourn and come back at . (whereupon, at : p.m., the president's commission recessed.) afternoon session testimony of robert a. frazier resumed the president's commission reconvened at : p.m. mr. mccloy. you are still under oath, you know. mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. i would like to begin by clearing up a few items which have been covered or left open during the morning session. first, you were going to supply us with certain figures concerning the times which were taken by two of the agents to fire three shots in the first series of tests which were made for determining the accuracy of the firing under rapid-fire conditions. mr. frazier. yes, sir; that was at two targets. the first one i gave you--killion fired in seconds. the other was a target marked cunningham and frazier. cunningham fired his three shots in seconds and i fired my three shots in . seconds. mr. eisenberg. now also you had made certain calculations concerning what we have been calling the lead that had to be given to a target, assuming various factors which were supplied to you. do you have those calculations now? mr. frazier. yes, sir; the lead would amount to shooting over the target at feet, a distance of . inches, and the decimal on that figure is not an accurate decimal because this figure relates to an average velocity of ammunition of this type, and is concerned with a speed of a vehicle which is also estimated, and a distance which may or may not be exactly accurate. but at a ground speed of miles an hour, it would be necessary to shoot over or lead a target . inches for the bullet to hit the intended spot on the target. at feet the lead would be . feet, or . inches. i might say that the variation, that of less lead at the longer distance, is in great part due to the fact that the target is farther away and that the shot is more nearly in line with the direction in which the target is moving, which would account for much of the drop in the amount of lead. and, in addition, i calculated this on the basis of the fact that there was a slight slope between the -foot and the -foot location downwards away from the shooter, which would also tend to more nearly cause the target to be moving in the same path as the bullet. mr. eisenberg. and did you convert those lead distances into the amount of inches which the shooter would have to sight above the head, above the point of the target? mr. frazier. those figures i gave were the elevations or the sighting distances above the target. the . inches vertical lead or sighting over the target is the equivalent of leading on the ground of . feet. mr. eisenberg. and that table also shows leads at other car speeds? mr. frazier. this table--i could calculate them--it only shows miles per hour translated into feet per second. mr. eisenberg. i mean, does it show various miles per hour? mr. frazier. yes; it shows miles per hour in feet per second. mr. eisenberg. without going into detail at this time, may i have permission to introduce this table into evidence? mr. mccloy. it may be admitted. mr. eisenberg. this will be commission exhibit . (the item identified as commission exhibit no. was received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. now, mr. frazier, in the construction of this table and also in your last tests for rapid fire for this rifle, you used a five-and-a-half second figure as a factor in your calculations, and in your attempt at rapid fire accuracy placements. can you give us the source of that figure? mr. frazier. yes, sir. you were the source of it, based on examination, as i understood it, of a movie taken at the scene, and measurements taken at the scene. however, i have no knowledge of the actual time. mr. eisenberg. for the record, i just wanted to establish that this is a source that was supplied by the commission and which is tentative, and it is not to imply any final conclusion on the part of the fbi; is that correct? mr. frazier. i hope it is taken that way, because we don't know what the time actually was. mr. eisenberg. another point then, which should have been covered this morning, mr. frazier, in your qualifications: have you testified before in court? mr. frazier. yes; i have. mr. eisenberg. can you estimate the number of times? mr. frazier. approximately times. mr. eisenberg. finally, we had discussed briefly your examination of consecutively manufactured bolt faces to see whether any two such consecutively manufactured bolt faces were identical in their microscopic characteristics. how many such examinations have you performed. mr. frazier. i would say about four examinations of pairs of bolt faces which have been consecutively manufactured. mr. eisenberg. and in each case the result was what? mr. frazier. the marks on one bolt face in no way resembled the marks on the other bolt face. mr. eisenberg. mr. frazier, we were just beginning to discuss, before the recess, commission exhibit , which is a picture, as you described it, of exhibit no. and a test cartridge under a microscope, and that is also known as c- and c- , is that right? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. could you discuss, by using that picture, some of the markings which you have seen under the microscope and on the basis of which you made your identification? mr. frazier. yes, sir. in the photograph i have drawn some small circles and numbered them, those circles, correspondingly on each side of the photograph. the purpose of the circles is not to point out all the similarities, but to call attention to some of them and to help orient in locating a mark on one with a mark on the opposite side of the photograph. in general the area shown is immediately outside of the firing pin in the bolt of the rifle, on the left side of the photograph, and commission exhibit on the right side. the circles have been drawn around the dents or irregularly shaped ridges, small bumps, and depressions on the surface of the metal in six places on each side of the photograph. it is an examination of these marks, and all of the marks on the face of the breech, microscopically which permits a conclusion to be reached. the photograph itself actually is a substitute to show only the type of marks found rather than their nature, that is, their height, their width, or their relationship to each other, which is actually a mental, visual, comparison on the two specimens themselves. mr. eisenberg. referring for a second to this mental, visual, comparison, mr. frazier, would a person without firearms training--firearms-identification training--be able to look under a microscope and make a determination for himself concerning whether a given cartridge case had been fired in a given weapon? mr. frazier. in that connection that person could look through the microscope. he may or may not see these individual characteristics which are present, because he does not know what to look for in the first place, and, secondly, they are of such a nature that you have to mentally sort them out in your mind going back and forth between one area and the other until you form a mental picture of them in a comparison such as this. if it was a different type of comparison, of parallel marks or something of that nature, then he could see the marks, but in either instance, without having compared hundreds and hundreds of specimens, he would not be able to make any statement as to whether or not they were fired from the same rifle. mr. eisenberg. would you say that this is, then, a matter of expert interpretation rather than a point-for-point comparison which a layman could make? mr. frazier. i would say so; yes. i don't think a layman would recognize some of the things on these cartridge cases and some shown in the photographs as actually being significant or not significant, because there will be things present which have nothing whatsoever to do with the firing of the cartridge case in the gun. there may be a depression in the primer to begin with, and there are no marks registered at that point as a result of the firing. unless these things are known to occur, someone may actually arrive at a different conclusion, because of the absence of similar marks. mr. eisenberg. now having reference to the specific exhibit before you, which is ---- mr. frazier. yes. mr. eisenberg. are all the marks shown in both photographs identical? mr. frazier. no. mr. eisenberg. and could you go into detail on a mark which is not identical to explain why you would get such a result? mr. frazier. well, for instance, between what i have drawn here as circle and circle , there is a slanting line from the upper left to the lower right on c- . this line shows as a white line in the photograph. on the other side there is a rough, very rough ridge which runs through there, having an entirely different appearance from the relatively sharp line on c- . the significant part of that mark is the groove in between, rather than the sharp edge of the mark, because the sharp corner could be affected by the hardness of the metal or the irregular surface of the primer and the amount of pressure exerted against it, pressing it back against the face of the bolt, at the time the cartridges were fired. so that you would never expect all the marks on one cartridge case to be identical with all the marks on the other cartridge case. in fact, you would expect many differences. but the comparison is made on the overall pattern, contour, and nature of the marks that are present. mr. eisenberg. off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. eisenberg. back on the record. mr. frazier, could you discuss or characterize those points which you have circled on commission exhibit , starting from the top? mr. frazier. number circle is drawn around a depression in the metal of irregular shape. i might say that number shows on the right side of the photograph, and only half of it shows on the left side because of the relative position of the two cartridge cases in the photograph. number is a circle drawn around a long line which extends obliquely across each cartridge case from the upper left to the lower right. the long line itself is a means of orienting the cartridge cases one with the other, but the circle is drawn around a break in that line in the form of a very small hump or an absence of metal which shows up as an actual break in the long line. number again is a depression between two grooves, which is rather similar in shape. i cannot tell you how deep it is because the photograph only shows two dimensions. but on the cartridge cases it has a very characteristic depth to it, which is readily apparent. it is formed by two parallel lines extending from the upper left to the lower, towards the lower right, with the depression in between, and again one side of the depression is formed by a small raised area in the primer metal which is seen in each photograph as a conical, almost a conical-shaped bump or raised area. number is another raised portion on the photograph. in connection with , i would like to point out that a portion of this bump has been erased from the test cartridge case on the left-hand side of the photograph, the erasure caused by the turning of the bolt of the weapon while being pressed against the primer, which has smoothed off some of the protruding rough areas on the primer. number is a horizontal ridge which has two depressions, one on the top and one on the bottom, shown on both sides of the photograph, and number is a wishbone type of ridge, a wide ridge which divides into two smaller ridges on the left-hand edge, and in the middle of the dividing lines, the forked lines, is a small dent or raised portion. those six which i have marked are only portions of those shown in the photograph, and of course the photograph does not show the entire surface of the primer. mr. eisenberg. were you able to find identifying marks on the brass as well as the primer on this cartridge case? mr. frazier. no; i did not notice any marks on the brass portions outside of the primer. mr. eisenberg. is that typical of cartridge-case identification? mr. frazier. generally that is true, unless there is a great pressure, unless the brass of the cartridge case is soft, or unless the marks are very sharp on the breech face; then they will be impressed into the brass. mr. eisenberg. this picture represents only a portion of the primer. you examined the entire primer to make your identification? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. and found? mr. frazier. it would not have been necessary to examine the entire primer necessarily, but of course we do examine the entire primer, pick out all of the marks on the left and the right, and rotate the cartridge cases and look at them from various angles, before arriving at a conclusion. mr. eisenberg. can you amplify the meaning of the statement that it would not be necessary to examine the entire primer? mr. frazier. there are sufficient marks shown in this photograph upon which to base an identification. in other words, it would not be necessary to have the rest of the primer if it had been mutilated or destroyed or something of that nature. mr. eisenberg. did you also examine the firing-pin impression in the cartridge? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. did you take a picture of that examination? mr. frazier. yes. here is the photograph of the firing-pin impression, again on the left the rifle, and on the right the cartridge case, commission's . mr. eisenberg. that bears the number c- and c- , corresponding to the numbers on commission exhibit ? mr. frazier. yes; it does. mr. eisenberg. did you take this photograph or have it taken under your supervision? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. what is the magnification of this photograph? mr. frazier. diameters. mr. eisenberg. is it equal on both sides? mr. frazier. yes. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, may i have this admitted? mr. mccloy. it may be admitted. mr. eisenberg. that will be . (the item identified as commission exhibit no. was received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. could you proceed with the discussion of the circled marks on this photograph, number ? mr. frazier. in the case of firing-pin impressions which are shown on exhibit , the marks result from two related sources; excuse me, not sources, but from two related causes, one being the force given to the firing pin driving it into the primer to set off the cartridge, and the second being the force of the powder charge inside the cartridge being driven back--driving the primer back against the firing pin at the same time, so that the metal of the primer is caused to flow or be stamped by the firing pin and pressed against by the gases, so that any irregularities in the firing pin will be impressed into the primer of the cartridge case. number consists of a double horizontal line, one a fairly wide coarse line at the top. immediately under that approximately one-eighth of an inch is a fairly fine horizontal line. circled and marked number is a very coarse, wide ridge, very short in length, approximately one-half an inch, and an eighth to a quarter of an inch in height. this ridge is formed by two grooves, a straight groove across the top, and a curved or crescent-shaped groove across the bottom. number is a circle drawn around two small raised areas in the primer metal separated by a depression. number is a section from a large ridge across the metal of the primer, which has a break in its surface in the lower portion of the circle, and immediately above the break is a groove, and immediately above that again is another ridge which is at a little steeper angle upwards to the left. number is a depression, is a portion of a depression appearing at the bottom of the circle with a very short ridge running horizontally across the circle. mr. eisenberg. again there are dissimilar marks on these two pictures, mr. frazier? mr. frazier. yes; there are, for the same reason, that metal does not flow the same in every instance, and it will not be impressed to the same depth and to the same amount, depending on the type of metal, the blow that is struck, and the pressures involved. mr. eisenberg. is your identification made therefore on the basis of the presence of similarities, as opposed to the absence of dissimilarities? mr. frazier. no, that is not exactly right. the identification is made on the presence of sufficient individual microscopic characteristics so that a very definite pattern is formed and visualized on the two surfaces. dissimilarities may or may not be present, depending on whether there have been changes to the firing pin through use or wear, whether the metal flows are the same, and whether the pressures are the same or not. so i don't think we can say that it is an absence of dissimilarities, but rather the presence of similarities. mr. eisenberg. any further questions on this cartridge case? mr. mccloy. no. mr. eisenberg. mr. frazier, you have testified also that you identified the cartridge case which is exhibit as having been fired from this rifle, in this rifle, to the exclusion of all others. did you take a photograph of the comparison that you made under the microscope of number ? mr. frazier. yes. i again took two photographs, one of the breech-face or bolt-face marks, and one of the firing-pin marks. mr. eisenberg. this exhibit which i am holding is a picture of the breech-face marks? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. and was that taken by you or under your supervision? mr. frazier. yes, sir; it was. mr. eisenberg. and the magnification here is what? mr. frazier. diameters. mr. eisenberg. may i have this admitted, mr. chairman? mr. mccloy. it may be admitted. mr. eisenberg. that will be number , mr. reporter. (the item described as commission exhibit no. was received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. could you discuss the markings on this picture, mr. frazier? mr. frazier. yes, sir. in commission exhibit , there is again the vertical dividing line which is the top of the prism in the microscope which divides your view. on the left hand side is a portion of the primer and a portion of the head of the test cartridge case from exhibit . on the right side of the photograph is a portion of the surface of the primer and a portion of the firing-pin impression of the cartridge case, commission exhibit . to assist in pointing out on the photograph some of the areas where individual microscopic characteristics are present, i have had circles drawn, circling at the top, number , an oval-shaped depression in the metal, having an irregularly shaped or wavy ridge across the bottom of the circle. immediately below that is another ridge which has a flat top, and is more or less of a diamond shape. number circle is over a very coarse, wide ridge separated by two fairly deep grooves on each side. number circle is over a conical-shaped raised portion on the primer which represents a dent in the metal of the bolt face, and number again is a raised area on the primer which is a portion of a ridge. in this instance this is more or less of a compound ridge which runs horizontally with a small break in it pointing down toward the lower left. mr. mccloy. is that same break apparent in the left hand photograph? mr. frazier. yes, sir; it is. looking very closely and right at the hairline, you can see the break in the ridge where it forms more or less of a =y=. the actual connecting point is not present, but you can see the portion of the ridge as it heads towards the horizontal ridge. the hairline has separated that portion of it. mr. eisenberg. would you call these marks strongly characteristic marks, mr. frazier? mr. frazier. oh, yes; very characteristic. they are primarily characteristic because of their irregular shape. if they had been regular in shape, it wouldn't have meant nearly as much as it does to have the irregular rough surfaces and contours of the marks. mr. eisenberg. i think you have identified the next picture i am holding as having been taken by you? mr. frazier. yes, sir; it was. that is a -diameter magnification photograph of exhibit on the right, and the test from the rifle on the left. mr. eisenberg. and this bears the numbers c- and c- , and is a firing-pin photograph? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. may this firing-pin mark photograph be admitted, mr. chairman? mr. mccloy. it may be admitted. mr. eisenberg. that is . (the item was numbered , and was received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. could you review that photograph, mr. frazier? mr. frazier. yes, sir. in exhibit the test cartridge case representing the rifle is on the left side of the photograph, and shows most of the firing-pin impression in that cartridge case. five circles have been drawn over towards the right-hand edge of the firing-pin impression, and five similarly located circles have been drawn over the area at the right-hand edge of the firing-pin impression of exhibit . mr. eisenberg. which is actually the left-hand side of the right-hand part of the picture? mr. frazier. it would be--that is right; at the dividing line, the circles on are drawn close to the dividing line, which shows only a very small portion of the firing pin of that cartridge case. beginning with number , it has a gently sloping ridge running from upper left toward lower right in each instance, with a break in the ridge contour at the middle in the form of an extension upwards toward the top of the photograph. in number there is a circle drawn around the end of a very long line in the left-hand side of the photograph. the circle is drawn to show a =y=-shaped break in this line located on both cartridge cases. number is a photograph of an irregular-shaped raised portion on the firing-pin impression, which is very difficult to describe in words. number is a groove extending from upper right to lower left which has a break in its lower side to allow a horizontal groove to come in towards the main groove. the lower portion of that groove coming in from the lower side is in the form of a crescent-shaped ridge, which starts horizontally from the left and then falls off towards the lower right-hand side of the photograph. the circle, number , is again a =y=-shaped or wishbone-shaped ridge, with a horizontal bar on the right, and then extending ridges upward toward the left and downward to the left. mr. eisenberg. again, are these firing-pin marks what you would call strongly characteristic? mr. frazier. yes; i would say so. mr. eisenberg. does the firing pin give any evidence of having been altered subsequent to the original manufacture? mr. frazier. no, sir; only in an accidental sort of way, that is, very fine scratches which may have been caused by firing or dirt on a cartridge or something which may have scratched the firing pin. mr. eisenberg. are firing-pin marks usually as characteristic of a given cartridge case as the primer marks? mr. frazier. yes, sir; i would say they are as characteristic. however, they may not always be as evident, they may not be seen as readily. however, they are just as characteristic. mr. mccloy. just to repeat again, what is this side of this picture? what does this represent? mr. frazier. that represents the rifle cartridge. mr. mccloy. the rifle cartridge itself? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. and this on the right? mr. frazier. this is one of the three cartridge cases recovered from the building, exhibit . mr. eisenberg. mr. frazier, you fired two test cartridges in the rifle, is that correct? mr. frazier. we fired several test cartridge cases. these two are the ones that were used in the comparisons. mr. eisenberg. did you fire several for possible comparison purposes, or only two for possible comparison purposes? mr. frazier. those we fired were in the time-fire test and we retained some of those for possible use in comparing, but it was not necessary to use them, actually. mr. eisenberg. did you use both of these test cartridge cases in the photographs, or only one of them? mr. frazier. i could not tell by these photographs. we did not make any distinction when we were comparing tests with the evidence as to which test cartridge case we were using. mr. eisenberg. when you made your selection among cartridge cases to select the items which would be used as test cases for comparison purposes, were the items you rejected much different from those you selected? mr. frazier. no. the marks were generally the same on all of them. those we used in this comparison were two tests which we fired on november d and used them in our tests--made our examination, our identification. later on we fired accuracy tests and speed tests and retained some of those cartridge cases, but they were not necessarily retained for test purposes, for identification of the weapon, but merely as a result of the other tests that were made. mr. eisenberg. could you just as easily have used other of the items from your original november twenty---- mr. frazier. oh, yes; yes. mr. eisenberg. getting to the last cartridge case, exhibit , did you take a photograph of the exhibit together with the test case under the microscope after making your identification? mr. frazier. yes; i did. this photograph shows that cartridge case on the right, and the test cartridge case from the rifle, , on the left. mr. eisenberg. this is marked on the right c- and on the left c- ? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. again this is a photograph taken by you or under your supervision? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. and that is of the primer? mr. frazier. yes; it is. mr. eisenberg. and you have a second photograph here also, marked c- and c- , also taken by you or under your supervision? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. and this is of the markings of the firing pin? mr. frazier. yes; it is. mr. eisenberg. can you give us the magnification first of the primer-markings photograph? mr. frazier. that is diameters enlargement on the primer, and on the firing-pin it is diameters. mr. eisenberg. now in all the cases of the photographs you have given us, the magnifications are equal on both sides, are they? mr. frazier. yes; they are. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, may i have these admitted into evidence? mr. mccloy. they may be admitted. mr. eisenberg. they will be and . (the items, identified as commission exhibits nos. and , were received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. could you discuss the photograph, exhibit please, mr. frazier? mr. frazier. exhibit is again, a portion of the primer of the cartridge case fired by me in the rifle number appearing on the left side of the vertical dividing line through the center of the photograph, and on the right side a portion of the surface of the cartridge case, exhibit , showing its primer and the marks on it. in the photograph four circles, or portions of circles, have been drawn, circling some of the areas where individual microscopic characteristics are found which permitted identifying the two cartridge cases as having been fired in the same weapon. in the upper circle are again two ridges separated by a groove, the lower right-hand end of which is blocked by a raised portion in the metal of the primer. circle number is again a depression bounded on the top by a long sloping groove, sloping from the upper left subsequently to the lower right. in circle number there is a series of ridges running horizontally across the photograph. the lowest of these three ridges is a rather wide round-topped ridge. circle number shows the left-hand side of a figure which you could roughly call a z in the primer, which consists of a horizontal or nearly horizontal line running from left to right which meets a second line running from right down to the left, which again meets a third line which runs from the left to the right. this is shown in both photographs as the three lines which form the shape of a z on the primer. mr. eisenberg. mr. frazier, on this photograph there is shown a mark at approximately o'clock on the left-hand side of the picture, and o'clock on the right-hand side, and the marks seem to be different in the two pictures, being broader on the left-hand, c- , than on the right, c- . could you explain the genesis of the difference? it seems to extend further down. mr. frazier. approximately in the center of the photograph where the two images meet, there is a scraped area which is the result of the surface of the metal of the bolt scraping the surface of the primer as the bolt was turned in opening the bolt to extract the cartridge. on the test cartridge case, this area is much broader and coarser because the bolt was pressing more tightly against the primer when it was turned. on the evidence cartridge case, the marks are relatively fine, separated, and even show portions of the surface of the primer in between the circular marks left by the rotating bolt. the reason is that this primer was not being pressed as tightly against the bolt at the time it was turned. mr. eisenberg. would that be due to differences in the construction of the cartridge--the two cartridges? mr. frazier. it could be differences in the cartridge, but primarily it would be a difference in the amount of setback of the cartridge against the bolt at the time it was fired. if a cartridge is slightly away from the bolt when it is fired, the primer is blown back out of the cartridge. as the pressure builds up, the cartridge then moves back and reseats the primer in the primer pocket. the manner in which that movement of the primer out and back in is accomplished determines how tightly the primer will bear against the face of the breach after the cartridge has been fired. it could be that, and it could be just a slight difference in the hardness of the metal of the primer which caused this one to flow back more and be marked more. mr. eisenberg. could you discuss exhibit no. ? mr. frazier. yes, sir; in commission exhibit no. is shown the firing-pin impressions of the test cartridge case from the rifle on the left and the cartridge case, , on the right, with a dividing line through the middle separating the primer of one cartridge case from the primer of the other. no circles have been drawn around this photograph because the marks shown are marks of an abraded area on the firing pin, and are more or less parallel and formed parallel patterns, so that the eye can follow from one line across to the opposite side of the photograph. in this area shown of the firing pin of the weapon, there was a small scraped area which left these microscopic ridges and grooves shown on the left photograph, and also reproduced in the primer or firing-pin impression on the right side of the photograph. mr. mccloy. state for me again what is on the left side? what is this c- ? mr. frazier. this is the rifle cartridge case, the test cartridge case. mr. mccloy. the test rifle? mr. frazier. yes; the cartridge case which i fired in . mr. mccloy. in . and the one on the right? mr. frazier. this the cartridge case from the building, exhibit . mr. mccloy. which was found in the building? mr. frazier. found in the building. mr. mccloy. on all of these on the left is it always the same---- mr. frazier. yes, sir; on all of the photographs we have discussed so far. mr. mccloy. i just wanted to make that clear. mr. eisenberg. mr. frazier, it appears to the eye that only a portion of this is in focus. is that correct? mr. frazier. only a portion of the entire photograph is in focus, yes, and that is the area where these individual marks appear, occur. mr. eisenberg. can you explain? mr. frazier. yes, sir; the reason being the outer area, the area up to the edge of the firing-pin impression is considerably higher, and the microscope does not have the depth of focus to focus on a very deep groove or depression such as the firing pin at the bottom of it and still maintain the top in focus. the firing pin is circular, i should say, hemispherical in shape, so that it leaves a cup-shaped impression of it--only one portion of it can be in focus at the same time; the other part being either higher or lower will be out of focus. mr. eisenberg. mr. frazier, i now hand you commission exhibit , which, for the record, is a bullet, and also for the record, it is a bullet which was found in the parkland hospital following the assassination. are you familiar with this exhibit? mr. frazier. yes, sir. this is a bullet which was delivered to me in the fbi laboratory on november , by special agent elmer todd of the fbi washington field office. mr. eisenberg. does that have your mark on it? mr. frazier. yes, it does. mr. eisenberg. the bullet is in the same condition as it was when you received it? mr. frazier. yes, sir; except for the marking of my initials and the other examiners. there is a discoloration at the nose caused apparently by mounting this bullet in some material which stained it, which was not present when received, and one more thing on the nose is a small dent or scraped area. at this area the spectographic examiner removed a small quantity of metal for analysis. mr. eisenberg. did you prepare the bullet in any way for examination? that is, did you clean it or in any way alter it? mr. frazier. no, sir; it was not necessary. the bullet was clean and it was not necessary to change it in any way. mr. eisenberg. there was no blood or similar material on the bullet when you received it? mr. frazier. not any which would interfere with the examination, no, sir. now there may have been slight traces which could have been removed just in ordinary handling, but it wasn't necessary to actually clean blood or tissue off of the bullet. mr. eisenberg. did you examine this exhibit to determine whether it had been fired in exhibit ? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. and what was your conclusion? mr. frazier. it was. exhibit was fired in the rifle . mr. eisenberg. that is to the exclusion of all other rifles? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. can you describe the types of markings which are generated onto a bullet, as opposed to those which are generated onto a cartridge case? mr. frazier. a bullet when it is fired picks up the marks of the barrel of the weapon. these marks consist of rifling marks of the lands and the grooves, the spiral grooves in the barrel, and, in addition, the abrasion marks or rubbing marks which the bullet picks up due to the friction between the barrel and the surface of the copper jacket on the bullet, or if it is a lead bullet, with the lead. mr. mccloy. you said the marks of the groove. you mean the marks of the groove or the marks of the lands? mr. frazier. both, sir; both are present. in this barrel there are four lands and four grooves. each of the raised portions in the barrel will be impressed into the surface of the bullet causing four--we call them land impressions--on the bullet, and, in between, four groove impressions. mr. eisenberg. how are you able to conclude that a given bullet was fired in a given weapon to the exclusion of all other weapons, mr. frazier? mr. frazier. that is based again upon the microscopic marks left on the fired bullets and those marks in turn are based upon the barrel from which the bullets are fired. the marks in the barrel originate during manufacture. they originate through use of the gun, through accidental marks resulting from cleaning, excessive cleaning, of the weapon, or faulty cleaning. they result from corrosion in the barrel due to the hot gases and possibly corrosive primer mixtures in the cartridges used, and primarily again they result from wear, that is an eroding of the barrel through friction due to the firing of cartridges, bullets through it. in this particular barrel the manufacturer's marks are caused by the drill which drills out the barrel, leaving certain marks from the drilling tool. then portions of these marks are erased by a rifling tool which cuts the four spiral grooves in the barrel and, in turn, leaves marks themselves, and in connection with those marks of course, the drilling marks, being circular in shape, there is a tearing away of the surface of the metal, so that a microscopically rough surface is left. then removing part of those marks with a separate tool causes that barrel to assume an individual characteristic, a character all of its own. in other words, at that time you could identify a bullet fired from that barrel as having been fired from the barrel to the exclusion of all other barrels, because there is no system whatever to the drilling of the barrel. the only system is in the rifling or in the cutting of the grooves, and in this case of rifle barrels, even the cutters wear down as the barrels are made, eventually of course having to be discarded or re-sharpened. mr. eisenberg. have you examined consecutively manufactured barrels to determine whether their microscopic characteristics are identical? mr. frazier. yes, sir; i have three different sets of, you might say, paired barrels, which have been manufactured on the same machine, one after the other, under controlled conditions to make them as nearly alike as possible, and in each case fired bullets from those barrels could not be identified with each other; in fact, they looked nothing at all alike as far as individual microscopic characteristics are concerned. their rifling impressions of course would be identical, but the individual marks there would be entirely different. mr. eisenberg. mr. frazier, did you determine the weight of the exhibit--that is, ? mr. frazier. yes, sir. exhibit weighs . grains. mr. eisenberg. how much weight loss does that show from the original bullet weight? mr. frazier. we measured several standard bullets, and their weights varied, which is a normal situation, a portion of a grain, or two grains, from grains--that is, they were all in the vicinity of grains. one weighed-- . , . , . grains. mr. eisenberg. in your opinion, was there any weight loss? mr. frazier. there did not necessarily have to be any weight loss to the bullet. there may be a slight amount of lead missing from the base of the bullet, since it is exposed at the base, and the bullet is slightly flattened; there could be a slight weight loss from the end of the bullet, but it would not amount to more than grains, because . is only a grain and a half less than the normal weight, and at least a grain variation would be allowed. so it would be approximately or grains. mr. eisenberg. were the markings on the bullet at all defaced? mr. frazier. yes; they were, in that the bullet is distorted by having been slightly flattened or twisted. mr. eisenberg. how material would you call that defacement? mr. frazier. it is hardly visible unless you look at the base of the bullet and notice it is not round. mr. eisenberg. how far does it affect your examination for purposes of identification? mr. frazier. it had no effect on it at all. mr. eisenberg. can you explain why? mr. frazier. because it did not mutilate or distort the original microscopic marks beyond the point where you could recognize the pattern and find the same pattern of marks on one bullet as were present on the other. mr. eisenberg. did you take a photograph of your comparison of exhibit with a test bullet? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. this photograph was prepared by you or under your supervision? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. can you tell us the magnification? mr. frazier. diameters. mr. eisenberg. and this reads c- on the left and c-l on the right? mr. frazier. yes; it does. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, may i have that admitted? mr. mccloy. the one on the right is the cartridge that you just---- mr. frazier. yes. , yes, sir. mr. mccloy. ? mr. frazier. and the one on the left is the test bullet. mr. mccloy. the test. it may be admitted. mr. eisenberg. that will be , mr. reporter. (the item so described was identified as commission exhibit no. and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. mr. frazier, could you discuss photograph ? mr. frazier. this exhibit shows on the left side of a dividing vertical line representing the top of the prism in the microscope which was used for the comparison, a portion of the surface from the test bullet from the rifle, , and on the right side of the photograph a portion of the surface of the bullet, . the marks shown in the photograph are on an area representing approximately one-half of one groove impression in the barrel of the weapon, which extends from approximately inches up from the bottom of the photograph, being the edge of one land impression, and the beginning of a groove impression, up to the top of the photograph, that area being approximately one-half or possibly two-thirds of a groove impression. the microscopic marks which were used in the identification, after being observed through the microscope and making the comparison and the identification, were photographed, and this photograph shows a portion of the surface of that bullet, showing parallel lines extending from the left side of the photograph coming up to the hairline and continuing across on the right side of the photograph, these microscopic marks being very fine grooves and ridges on the surface of the bullet, very coarse ridges on the surface of the bullet, and inbetween size scratches left on the bullet by the barrel of the weapon. there will be some marks which will not show up on one bullet which show up on the other bullet, and similarly some marks on the other bullet, in this case exhibit , will not be present on the test bullet, that stiuation being due to a number of causes. one, the bullets could have originally been slightly different in diameter, the larger bullet, of course, picking up more marks during its passage through the barrel. secondly, the two bullets may not have expanded exactly the same, due to the pressure of the powder behind them as they passed through the barrel. third, with each bullet fired through the barrel, there are certain changes that occur due to the wearing away of the surface of the metal of the barrel, so that after a series of shots through a particular barrel, it would be expected that the pattern of microscopic marks produced by it would change. the identification is based on areas such as this on the bullet and the comparison of the microscopic marks around the entire surface of the bullet which bears individual characteristics. mr. eisenberg. mr. frazier, running through the middle of the exhibit there seem to be finer lines on the right-hand side than on the left. could you explain that, the reason why the lines come out with more detail or that there are more lines on the right side than on the left? mr. frazier. those marks could be the result of the bullet striking some object after it was fired, or they could be the result of changes having taken place in the barrel. for instance, even a piece of coarse cloth, leather or some other object could have polished the surface of the metal slightly and left infinitesimal scratches which, when enlarged sufficiently, actually look like marks on the bullet. mr. eisenberg. in making your examination of the bullet, what was the relative attention you gave to the broader lines we see in this picture and the finer lines such as those we have just been referring to? mr. frazier. the broader lines would be more characteristic or they are looked for most, because they change less rapidly than the fine lines. for instance, firing two or three bullets through a barrel could completely erase microscopic marks which would appear as fine lines in a certain area, whereas the coarser lines and grooves on the bullet would be maintained over a series of fired bullets. mr. eisenberg. in evaluating these lines, do you examine the lines individually, or are you interested in their relationship with one another in addition? mr. frazier. it is a combination. you actually examine each mark and each line individually, but it is a mental process rather than a matter of adding one line to another. it is a process of looking at a series of lines and you actually notice that they are composed of round-topped ridges, =v=-topped ridges, flat-topped ridges, and it is a mental process of looking at the whole pattern rather than the individual marks. mr. eisenberg. all these lines that we are looking at lie within a groove, within one groove, did you say? mr. frazier. yes; except for the lower portion of the photograph, there is a portion of a land impression showing one rather deep groove running across the bottom of the picture, and a series of grooves shown next to the edge of the land impression. mr. eisenberg. will you identify the circular-looking mark on the right-hand side of the picture? mr. frazier. that could be either a flaw in the bullet, the metal itself, before it was fired, or could be the result of the bullet having struck some object after it was fired and before it stopped, or as it stopped, or could be the result of having been dropped or roughly handled. this particular mark there would be invisible practically speaking to the naked eye when looking at the bullet. mr. mccloy. the mark to which you refer is the one on the right-hand side of the exhibit toward the top, about an inch and a half from the center line? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. is that about o'clock? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. do you have another photograph, mr. frazier, of this? mr. frazier. no, sir. mr. eisenberg. i now hand you a bullet fragment, what appears to be a bullet fragment, in a pill box which is labeled jacket and lead q- , and it has certain initials on it. for the record, this was found--this bullet fragment was found--in the front portion of the car in which the president was riding. i ask you whether you are familiar with this object. mr. frazier. yes; i am. mr. eisenberg. is your mark on it? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. did you examine this? is this a bullet fragment, mr. frazier? mr. frazier. yes, sir. this consists of a piece of the jacket portion of a bullet from the nose area and a piece of the lead core from under the jacket. mr. eisenberg. how were you able to conclude it is part of the nose area? mr. frazier. because of the rifling marks which extend part way up the side, and then have the characteristic leading edge impressions and no longer continue along the bullet, and by the fact that the bullet has a rounded contour to it which has not been mutilated. mr. eisenberg. did you examine this bullet to determine whether it had been fired from exhibit to the exclusion of all other weapons? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. what was your conclusion? mr. frazier. this bullet fragment was fired in this rifle, . mr. eisenberg. mr. frazier, did you weigh this fragment? mr. frazier. yes; i did. it weighs . grains. mr. eisenberg. did you take a photograph of the fragment as compared with a test bullet? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. this photograph is labeled c- on the left and c- on the right, and it is a photograph taken by you or under your supervision? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. c- being the test bullet? mr. frazier. the test bullet from . mr. eisenberg. and what is the magnification of this photograph? mr. frazier. it would be diameters. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, may that be admitted? mr. mccloy. c- is the actual fragment? mr. eisenberg. yes. mr. mccloy. it may be admitted. mr. eisenberg. can we go back a second? i don't think i asked for admission of the bullet fragment which mr. frazier identified. may i have that admitted? mr. mccloy. it may be admitted. mr. eisenberg. the bullet fragment will be and the photograph just identified by mr. frazier will be . mr. mccloy. it may be admitted. (the items described, identified as commission exhibits nos. and , were received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. mr. frazier, could you discuss this photograph with us? mr. frazier. in commission exhibit is again the vertical dividing line through the center of the photograph, with the test bullet from the rifle on the left, and the bullet, exhibit , on the right. am i right in that the bullet jacket fragment is ? mr. eisenberg. i think i put it down here. that is right, . mr. frazier. approximately two-thirds of a groove impression from each of the two bullets is shown, with a very small portion at the bottom of the photograph of a land impression. the individual microscopic characteristics which were used in the comparison, and on which the identification was made, were photographed and are as shown in this photograph. however, this photograph did not enter into the actual conclusion reached. the microscopic characteristics appear as parallel horizontal lines extending from the test bullet on the left to the bullet exhibit on the right. the marks used in the identification are grooves, paired lines, a series of ridges up and down the hairline on one bullet, and they also appear on the opposite side of the photograph. in one particular instance it will be seen that at the edge of the land impression at the lower left portion of the photograph is a very definite paired ridge which appears on the right side of the photograph but in a slightly different area. the reason for the difference in the location of this paired line on the exhibit, exhibit , can be explained by the fact that this is a jacket fragment, that it was torn from the rest of the bullet, and is greatly mutilated, distorted, and bears only a very few areas suitable for identification purposes because of that fact. the distortion has foreshortened the area of the jacket fragment, , to the extent that over this approximately one-tenth-of-an-inch surface represented in this photograph, these lines do not coincide exactly on the lower part of the photograph when they are lined up on the upper part of the photograph. mr. eisenberg. when you say they don't correspond exactly, do you mean at all, or do you mean they aren't---- mr. frazier. i mean that the marks are present, but they do not line up at the hairline. mr. eisenberg. but in your opinion the marks on the left are the same as the marks on the right? mr. frazier. the marks on the left are the same marks as those on the right. in the examination this is easily determined by rotating the two bullets. as you rotate them, you can see these characteristic patterns line up. then you will notice these do not line up. but as you rotate one bullet, you can follow the individual marks mentally and see that the same pattern is present and you can line them up in your mind, even though they are not actually physically lined up in the microscope. mr. mccloy. they are not lined up in the microscope because there is mutilation on the fragment? mr. eisenberg. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. and there is no mutilation on the test cartridge? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. mr. frazier, in the lower portion of each side of that photograph, which i take it is the groove of the bullet, or the land impression of the rifle--is that correct? mr. frazier. the land on the rifle leaves this groove on the bullet. mr. eisenberg. yes; the right-hand side seems to be slightly striated while the left-hand side does not seem to be striated. can you explain that? mr. frazier. well, the striae in this side are not apparent in this photograph. i don't know whether they actually exist on the bullet or not. you can't tell from the photograph, because they are so fine as to possibly not show at all. a close examination right at the hairline shows a whole series of very fine scratches which do not appear further away from the hairline, and that could be very easily due to differences in the metal, as the bullet passed down the barrel, being pressed less forcibly against the barrel, or could also be due to the fact that at the edges of the lands it is very often evident that hot gases from the burning powder had passed the bullet through these cracks and actually will melt or erode away the surface of the bullet. as to why they may or may not be present is difficult to say from an examination of the photograph. mr. eisenberg. what portion of the bullet fragment provided enough markings for purposes of identification, approximately? mr. frazier. i would say that one-fourth, in this instance, one-fourth of 's surface was available. one-fifth to one-sixth would have been sufficient for identification, based on the character of the marks present. mr. eisenberg. now this portion of the fragment was an even smaller portion of the bullet, the entire bullet, is that correct? mr. frazier. yes; it was. mr. eisenberg. so when you say one-fifth and one-sixth, are you referring now to the proportion of marks on the fragment, as opposed to the proportion of marks you would want from an entire bullet? mr. frazier. no; i am referring to the proportion of marks on the fragment which were used in the examination as compared to the total bullet circumference which would have existed on an unmutilated bullet. mr. eisenberg. mr. frazier, do you feel that the amount of markings here were sufficient to make positive identification? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. have you made identifications in the past with as few or less markings as are present on this bullet fragment? mr. frazier. oh, yes; and on less, much less of an area. the character of the marks is more important than the number of the marks. mr. eisenberg. mr. frazier, here you were of course unable to see all of the lines which were present on the bullet before mutilation. have you ever had an occasion where you examined a bullet and saw one portion of it which was an apparent match and then found out that the balance of the bullet was not an apparent match? mr. frazier. no, sir; and if i understand your words "apparent match," there is no such thing as an apparent match. it either is an identification or it isn't, and until you have made up your mind, you don't have an apparent match. we don't actually use that term in the fbi. unless you have sufficient marks for an identification, you cannot say one way or the other as to whether or not two bullets were fired from a particular barrel. in other words, you cannot nonidentify on the absence of similarities any more than you can identify when you have no similarities present. mr. eisenberg. in other words, you won't make an identification unless you feel enough marks are present to constitute a basis for a positive identification? mr. frazier. that is right, and i would not report any type of similarities unless they were sufficient for an identification, because unless you can say one bullet was fired from the same barrel as a second bullet, then there is room for error, and in this field of firearms identification, we try to avoid any possible chance of error creeping in. mr. eisenberg. do you avoid the category of "probable" identification? mr. frazier. oh, yes; we never use it, never. mr. eisenberg. and why is that? mr. frazier. there is no such thing as a probable identification. it either is or isn't as far as we are concerned. mr. eisenberg. and in this case it is? mr. frazier. it is, yes. mr. eisenberg. any further questions on this bullet fragment, mr. chairman? mr. mccloy. do we have any proof in the record thus far as to where the fragment referred to a moment ago came from? mr. eisenberg. honestly, i am not sure. i know it will be in the record eventually, but i have not taken that up as part of this testimony. mr. mccloy. that will be subject to further proof. mr. eisenberg. yes. mr. mccloy. if it is not in the record. as a result of all these comparisons, you would say that the evidence is indisputable that the three shells that were identified by you were fired from that rifle? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. and you would say the same thing of commission exhibit , the bullet was fired from that rifle? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. and the fragment ---- mr. frazier. , the one we have just finished. mr. mccloy. was likewise a portion of a bullet fired from that rifle? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. you have no doubt about any of those? mr. frazier. none whatsoever. mr. eisenberg. now finally in the category of bullets and bullet fragments, i hand you what is apparently a bullet fragment, which is in a pill box marked q- , and which, i state for the record, was also found in the front portion of the president's car, and i ask you whether you are familiar with this item, marked q- ? mr. frazier. yes, sir; this was submitted to me as having been found beside the front seat of the automobile. mr. eisenberg. your mark is on that fragment? mr. frazier. yes, it is. mr. eisenberg. when did you receive that fragment, mr. frazier? mr. frazier. at : p.m., november , , from special agent orrin bartlett, our liaison agent with the secret service, in the fbi laboratory. mr. eisenberg. and the last bullet fragment you examined, exhibit , when did you receive that? mr. frazier. it was received at the same time from special agent bartlett. mr. eisenberg. did you examine both at that time, mr. frazier? mr. frazier. yes, sir; beginning the following morning, november . mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, may i have this bullet fragment marked q- admitted as commission ? mr. mccloy. it may be admitted. (the item, identified as commission exhibit no. , was received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. mr. frazier, did you examine this bullet fragment with a view to determining whether it had been fired from the rifle, exhibit ? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. what was your conclusion? mr. frazier. this bullet fragment, exhibit , was fired from this particular rifle, . mr. eisenberg. again to the exclusion of all other rifles? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. did you weigh this fragment, mr. frazier? mr. frazier. yes, i did. it weighs . grains. mr. eisenberg. can you describe the fragment? mr. frazier. yes. it consists of the base or most rearward portion of the jacket of a metal-jacketed bullet, from which the lead core is missing. mr. eisenberg. how can you tell that it is the most rearward portion? mr. frazier. it has the shape which bases of bullets have. it has the cannelure which is located at the rear, on the portion of bullets of this type. mr. eisenberg. can you determine whether this bullet fragment, , and are portions of the originally same bullet? mr. frazier. no, sir. mr. eisenberg. you cannot? mr. frazier. there is not enough of the two fragments in unmutilated condition to determine whether or not the fragments actually fit together. however, it was determined that there is no area on one fragment, such as , which would overlap a corresponding area on the base section of , so that they could be parts of one bullet, and then, of course, they could be parts of separate bullets. mr. eisenberg. now is without the core; is that correct? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. could you estimate how much weight you would add if you had the core? mr. frazier. no, i cannot. mr. eisenberg. not at all? mr. frazier. no. i do not have the figure on the core weight. mr. eisenberg. in your opinion, is it possible that if you did make such an estimate, the weight, the projected weight of plus the actual weight of would exceed the bullet weight of the . mm. bullet? mr. frazier. oh, no; it would not. mr. eisenberg. it would not? mr. frazier. it would not come even close to it, because the amount of core is only--one-quarter inch of the bullet is all that remains at the base, and that much core would not weigh more than grains at the most. mr. eisenberg. no cannelure shows on , is that correct? mr. frazier. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. mr. frazier, did you make a comparison photograph of with a test bullet? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. this photograph is marked c- on the left and c- on the right; is that correct? mr. frazier. yes, it is. mr. eisenberg. c- being the test? mr. frazier. yes, from the rifle , and c- is exhibit . mr. eisenberg. and the magnification on this photograph is what, mr. frazier? mr. frazier. diameters. mr. eisenberg. and this was taken by you or under your supervision? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, may i have this admitted? mr. mccloy. it may be admitted. mr. eisenberg. . (the item was identified as commission exhibit no. and was received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. can you discuss this picture? mr. frazier. commission exhibit shows a portion of the test bullet from exhibit on the left side of the photograph, and a portion of the bullet on the right side, divided by a hairline. the photograph was taken of the microscopic marks, examined through the comparison microscope, consisting of very fine and very coarse grooves, or scratches, or ridges, on the surface of each of the bullets as compared with those on the other bullet. the photograph did not, of course, enter into the conclusion reached in the examination, but was merely taken to demonstrate, to illustrate the types of marks present insofar as a photograph can show them. mr. eisenberg. mr. frazier, what portion of the exhibit was unmutilated enough to allow you to make a comparison of its markings? mr. frazier. approximately one-third. actually, the entire base section of the bullet was present, but approximately one-half of that base was mutilated. on the mutilated area, either marks were destroyed completely by striking some object, or being compressed or stretched, or they were thrown out of relationship with each other by stretching or compressing to the extent that they were of no value. so i would estimate approximately one-third of the area was present. mr. eisenberg. now, when you say one-third, is this total area or circumference? mr. frazier. circumference--one-third of the circumference. mr. eisenberg. do you have any further pictures of any of the bullets, mr. frazier? mr. frazier. no, i do not. mr. eisenberg. mr. frazier, i hand you two bullets and ask whether you are familiar with them. mr. frazier. yes, i am. these are the two test bullets which i fired from this rifle, exhibit . mr. eisenberg. do they have your mark on them? mr. frazier. yes, they do. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, may i have these admitted as exhibit ? mr. mccloy. they may be admitted. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. getting back to the two bullet fragments mentioned, mr. frazier, did you alter them in any way after they had been received in the laboratory, by way of cleaning or otherwise? mr. frazier. no, sir; there was a very slight residue of blood or some other material adhering, but it did not interfere with the examination. it was wiped off to clean up the bullet for examination, but it actually would not have been necessary. mr. eisenberg. is that true on both fragments? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. you also mentioned there was blood or some other substance on the bullet marked . is this an off-hand determination, or was there a test to determine what the substance was? mr. frazier. no, there was no test made of the materials. mr. eisenberg. as you examined the bullet and the two bullet fragments, are they in the same condition now as they were when they entered your hands? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. one other question on the cartridge cases. did you examine the cartridge cases for chambering marks, extraction marks, or ejection marks? mr. frazier. yes, i did, but i did not make any comparisons of either extractor or ejector marks or chambering marks, since the purpose of my examination was primarily to determine whether they were fired in this rifle, and such marks would not have assisted in that determination. they were not necessary because they would have indicated only that it may have been loaded into and extracted from the weapon, whereas the marks which i found served to identify it as having been fired in the weapon, actually. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, unless you have further questions on the cartridge cases or bullets, i would like to move on to another subject. mr. mccloy. from your examination of the actual bullets that you have been told were fired on the day of the assassination from this rifle, and from your--how many separate bullets do you identify? mr. frazier. two, at the maximum--possibly three, if these two jacket fragments came from different bullets. if they came from one bullet, then there would be a maximum of the whole bullet and this bullet in two parts. mr. mccloy. and you cannot tell whether these two particles came from one bullet or two separate ones? mr. frazier. no, sir. mr. eisenberg. when you say "two at the maximum," do you mean two at the minimum? mr. frazier. i meant at least two bullets. mr. mccloy. there were at least two different bullets? mr. frazier. at least two, yes. mr. eisenberg. mr. frazier, can you give an estimate of the total number of bullets fired in the various tests made with this rifle? mr. frazier. approximately rounds. mr. eisenberg. and were all of these rounds . mm. western mannlicher-carcano ammunition? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. did you have any misfires? mr. frazier. no, sir. mr. eisenberg. did you find the ammunition dependable? mr. frazier. very dependable. mr. eisenberg. can you think of any reason why someone might think this is an undependable type of ammunition? mr. frazier. no, sir; the western cartridge co. has always manufactured, in my experience, very dependable ammunition. there is other ammunition on the market available for this particular rifle in this caliber, which in my opinion is undependable or would be a very poor quality of ammunition. it may have been a confusion between that other ammunition of the same caliber and this western ammunition. mr. eisenberg. can you elaborate as to what that other ammunition consists of? mr. frazier. certain companies have imported into the united states cartridges of foreign manufacture. those i have seen for this rifle were of italian manufacture. they have pulled the military bullets from those cartridges and reloading hunting type or soft-point bullets into the cartridges. in doing that, they did not, apparently, take any great pains in loading them. occasionally, the mouth of the case would be bent over and the bullet driven in right on top of the bent case. i have seen split cartridge cases, even before they were fired, badly corroded cartridge cases. all in all, the ammunition is of generally poor overall appearance, and it has been reported to me that it was of poor firing quality. i have not fired any of it, personally. mr. eisenberg. have you heard anything about the dependability of the italian-made ammunition, unreloaded? mr. frazier. no, sir; not as such. however, i have experienced the examination of italian ammunition of various years of manufacture and, of course, various makes. and i think it is rather poor quality in this particular caliber, primarily due to the very short seating depth to which bullets of this type are seated in the cartridge, which causes the bullets to loosen very readily in the cartridge case even before they are loaded into a clip or fired. mr. eisenberg. did you notice, mr. frazier, in your examination of targets and so forth, whether there was any marked degree of yaw or tumbling by the bullets? mr. frazier. no evidence at all of tumbling or yaw. mr. eisenberg. in your opinion, would the firing of shots materially affect the microscopic characteristics of exhibit ? mr. frazier. it would change them, if not completely, practically completely. mr. eisenberg. mr. frazier, some witnesses to the assassination have stated that they heard more than three shots. can you think of any reason why they might have come to that conclusion--in terms of acoustical properties of high-velocity bullets? mr. frazier. they could very readily have heard other sounds which could be confused with shots. it is apparent--it is obvious with any weapon in which the bullet travels faster than the speed of sound, which is , , approximately, feet per second, the bullet itself will cause a shock wave or a sound wave, and a person standing in front of that weapon will hear the report of the bullet passing and then subsequently the sound will reach them of the cartridge explosion, which could very easily be confused with two shots. there will be the crack of the bullet going by, overhead or in the vicinity, and then the sound of the shot. so that you would hear for three shots actually six reports, which could have caused some confusion. mr. eisenberg. mr. frazier, i now hand you a bullet in a pill box which is marked q- . i ask you whether you are familiar with this bullet. i would like to state for the record that this bullet was found in the walker residence after the attempted assassination of general walker. mr. mccloy. as far as you know, we have no proof of that yet? mr. eisenberg. that is right. mr. frazier. yes, i am familiar with it. i have made an examination of that bullet. with reference to this bullet, i could furnish everything except the weight of it. mr. eisenberg. all right. just taking one thing at a time. you are familiar with it. does it have your marking on it? mr. frazier. yes, it does. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, may i have this admitted as ? mr. mccloy. it may be admitted. (the article referred to was marked commission exhibit , and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. when did you receive this bullet, do you recall, mr. frazier? mr. frazier. i would need to refer to my notes for that. mr. eisenberg. could you supply that for us at a subsequent time? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. and the weight. is this bullet in the same condition as it was when you received it in the laboratory, mr. frazier? mr. frazier. yes, it is. mr. eisenberg. did you clean it up or in any way alter it when you received it? mr. frazier. no, sir. mr. eisenberg. mr. frazier, did you examine this bullet to determine whether it was or might have been fired in exhibit ? mr. frazier. yes, i did. mr. eisenberg. and what was your conclusion? mr. frazier. i was unable to reach a conclusion as to whether or not it had been fired from this rifle. the conclusion went slightly further than that, in that we determined that the general rifling characteristics of the rifle are of the same type as those found on the bullet, exhibit , and, further, on this basis, that the bullet could have been fired from the rifle on the basis of its land and groove impressions. and, second, that all of the remaining physical characteristics of this bullet, , are the same as western . mm. mannlicher-carcano bullets of the type normally loaded in ammunition made for this rifle, . however, the mutilation of the nose of the bullet has eliminated the length characteristics, and it cannot be definitely stated that exhibit is in fact a western cartridge co. product, but all of the remaining characteristics of base shape, distance from the base to the cannelure, the width of the cannelure, and the overall appearance, coloration, and so forth, are similar to western ammunition. mr. eisenberg. is this a jacketed bullet? mr. frazier. yes, it is a copper-alloy jacketed bullet having a lead core. mr. eisenberg. can you think of any reason why someone might have called this a steel-jacketed bullet? mr. frazier. no, sir; except that some individuals commonly refer to rifle bullets as steel-jacketed bullets, when they actually in fact just have a copper-alloy jacket. mr. eisenberg. can you describe the general rifling characteristics which you referred to? mr. frazier. yes. they consist of impressions from four lands and grooves. the bullet is mutilated on a portion of its surface. however, it can be determined that there were four land impressions and four groove impressions originally on this bullet. the width of the land impression is / ths of an inch, that is . inch--whereas the width of the groove impression is . inch, or / ths of an inch. the bullet is flattened so that it was not possible to measure its diameter. however, by adding the land width to the groove width, and multiplying by the number of lands and grooves, you can determine the circumference of the bullet and mathematically determine its diameter, which in this case corresponds to . mm. ammunition, or approximately . inch. mr. eisenberg. what was the direction of the twist? mr. frazier. to the right. mr. eisenberg. could you estimate how many types of rifle would produce, on a . mm. bullet, four lands and four grooves, right twist, with the width of lands and grooves which you established as being those on this bullet? mr. frazier. only from experience, i could say that it would be relatively few which would agree with all of those characteristics. i have, of course, not seen or measured all of the foreign rifles, and therefore i could not estimate the number that there might be. mr. eisenberg. did you find any miscroscopic characteristics or other evidence which would indicate that the bullet was not fired from ? mr. frazier. no, sir. mr. eisenberg. were you able to determine the depth of the grooves of the bullet? mr. frazier. the bullet, , had what appeared to be normal-depth grooves. however, this bullet is completely flattened due to hitting a plaster or cement or other hard material on one side, and the opposite side, as a result of the flattening--has assumed a concave appearance, which has stretched the surface in various places and changes its overall appearance--that is the basis for actually having to state that there were not enough unmutilated marks for identification purposes on it. mr. eisenberg. but you do conclude that this was fired from a mannlicher-carcano / , or a rifle with similar barrel characteristics? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, do you have any further questions on this? mr. mccloy. when you say you were able to determine it was fired from this type of rifle or one similar to it, that would include a number of different kinds of rifles besides the mannlicher-carcano? mr. frazier. yes, sir; it could include a variety of weapons with which i am not familiar in the foreign field. mr. mccloy. but it is definitely, according to your best judgment, a . mm. bullet? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. and the bullet, such as we find it, has now characteristics similar to the type of bullet which was our exhibit no. ? mr. frazier. yes, it does. placing them side by side, the cannelure, which is really the only physical characteristic apparent, comes to exactly the same place on both and , indicating that this bullet was loaded to exactly the same depth in the cartridge--the two bullets, both and . mr. mccloy. i think i have no further questions. mr. eisenberg. mr. frazier, did any other firearms experts in the fbi laboratory examine the three cartridge cases, the bullet, and the two bullet fragments which you have testified as to today? mr. frazier. yes, all of the actual firearms comparisons were also made by charles killion and cortlandt cunningham. these examinations were made separately, that is, they made their examination individually and separately from mine, and there was no association between their examination and mine until both were finished. mr. eisenberg. did the three of you come to the conclusions which you have given us today as your own conclusions? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. did anyone in the fbi laboratory who examined the evidence come to a different conclusion as to any of the evidence you have discussed today? mr. frazier. no, sir. mr. eisenberg. is there anything you would like to add to your testimony, mr. frazier? mr. frazier. not with reference to this material, no. mr. eisenberg. are you thinking of---- mr. frazier. i am thinking of other examinations which i made, but which probably will come up at another time. mr. eisenberg. you are referring to examinations such as the clothing, holes in the clothing, and the fracture in the automobile windshield? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. yes. there will be testimony elicited at another time on those examinations, mr. frazier. mr. mccloy. mr. frazier will be a witness in those, too? mr. eisenberg. yes, sir. mr. specter will probably elicit that testimony. mr. chairman, or gentlemen, are there any other questions? thank you very much, mr. frazier. mr. frazier. excuse me. i have one photograph here that might be useful in this regard, and that is of a clip showing the six cartridges loaded into it. mr. mccloy. i think that might be a good idea. you might identify that, to show what we mean by clips. mr. eisenberg. you have shown us photographs of a clip--the clip from the exhibit rifle? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. one photograph loaded, and one unloaded? mr. frazier. yes. in one instance i put six cartridges in the clip and photographed it. mr. eisenberg. did you take those photographs? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. mr. frazier, you testified that if you didn't use the clip you would only be able to shoot one shell at a time, is that right? mr. frazier. yes, sir; this weapon does not have the box magazine commonly found in most military weapons which holds the cartridges and can be reloaded one at a time, but they must remain in the clip, or they will malfunction. the follower in the weapon will throw the cartridges right back out of the gun. mr. mccloy. that explains it to my mind, because i know i have fired rifles with clips and fired them without clips. but they were much more convenient in loading. mr. frazier. yes, sir; this one is designed---- mr. mccloy. for example, the springfield you could load with clip or load without a clip. mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. but this one has to have a clip in order not to malfunction? mr. frazier. yes, it does. mr. eisenberg. those will be and . mr. mccloy. they may be admitted. (the photographs referred to were marked commission exhibits nos. and , and received in evidence.) mr. mccloy. thank you very much, mr. frazier. you have been very helpful. testimony of ronald simmons mr. eisenberg. our next witness will be mr. simmons. mr. mccloy. would you hold up your right hand? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give in this hearing will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. simmons. i do. mr. mccloy. please be seated. this, as you know--the constitution of the commission and its purpose--we want to ask you something about the firearm aspect of our hearings, and certain characteristics of this rifle that we would like to hear from you about, and if there is anything else you have that can throw light on our problems. if you can state for the record, first, your name, and where you live. mr. simmons. my name is ronald simmons. i live near havre de grace, md. mr. mccloy. mr. eisenberg? mr. eisenberg. can you give us your position, mr. simmons? mr. simmons. i am the chief of the infantry weapons evaluation branch of the ballistics research laboratory of the department of the army. mr. eisenberg. and how long have you held this position? mr. simmons. this position, about four years, and previous employment has been in these laboratories. mr. eisenberg. how long have you been working, mr. simmons, in the area of evaluation of weapons? mr. simmons. since , in various classes of weapons. since , however, i have had the responsibility for the laboratories on small arms. mr. eisenberg. has part of it--of these--have part of these evaluations been conducted with military rifles, mr. simmons? mr. simmons. most of our evaluations have been associated with military rifles. mr. eisenberg. how long altogether have you spent in this area? mr. simmons. in the area of rifles? mr. eisenberg. yes. mr. simmons. some experience beginning from about . i have been continuously concerned with this since . mr. eisenberg. can you give a rough estimate of how many weapons you have evaluated as to accuracy? mr. simmons. no. we have been concerned with almost all of the weapons which the army has tested, either in preliminary stages or as developmental weapons. mr. eisenberg. but your specialty is the evaluation of weapons systems, including military rifles, and you have been engaged in this for years, as to all weapons systems, and since as to---- mr. simmons. yes, that is correct. mr. mccloy. in the course of that you have examined hundreds of rifles, though, have you not? mr. simmons. well, our examination of rifles is not the detailed engineering, design experiment which a gunsmith or a rifle expert as such would concern himself with. we are more concerned with establishing a framework by which we can put numbers to the performance of military rifles in tactical employment. and this means that for a specific--specific classes of weapons, we have had to establish, for example, round-to-round dispersion, the accuracy with which they can be employed, and the wounding power of the projectiles. mr. mccloy. in the course of this you have fired a great many rifles yourself? mr. simmons. no, sir; i don't fire them. mr. mccloy. somebody else fires them? mr. simmons. yes. mr. mccloy. but you make the studies in relation to the accuracy of the weapons? mr. simmons. yes, that is correct. the firing is accomplished by employees of the development and proof services, which is the weapons testing facility at the aberdeen proving ground. mr. mccloy. your task is primarily evaluation---- mr. simmons. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. of the characteristics of the rifle, particularly in terms of its accuracy and its wounding power, killing power? mr. simmons. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, may this witness be admitted as an expert to testify in this area? mr. mccloy. yes. mr. eisenberg. mr. simmons, did you conduct a test from a machine rest, a test of round-to-round dispersion of this weapon, or have such tests conducted? mr. simmons. may i check the serial number? mr. eisenberg. i should ask first if you are familiar with this weapon. i have handed the witness commission exhibit . mr. simmons. yes. we fired this weapon from a machine rest for round-to-round dispersion. we fired exactly rounds in this test, and the dispersion which we measured is of conventional magnitude, about the same that we get with our present military rifles, and the standard deviation of dispersion is . mil. mr. eisenberg. that is a fraction of a degree? mr. simmons. a mil is an angular measurement. there are . mils to a degree. mr. eisenberg. do i understand your testimony to be that this rifle is as accurate as the current american military rifles? mr. simmons. yes. as far as we can determine from bench-rest firing. mr. eisenberg. would you consider that to be a high degree of accuracy? mr. simmons. yes, the weapon is quite accurate. for most small arms, we discover that the round-to-round dispersion is of the order of three-tenths of a mil. we have run into some unusual ones, however, which give us higher values, but very few which give us smaller values, except in selected lots of ammunition. mr. mccloy. you are talking about the present military rifle--will you designate it? mr. simmons. the m- . mr. mccloy. is it as accurate as the springfield ammunition? mr. simmons. i am not familiar with the difference between the m- in its accuracy and the springfield. these are very similar in their dispersion. mr. mccloy. at a hundred yards, what does that amount to? what is the dispersion? mr. simmons. well, at a hundred yards, one mil is . inches, and . of that is a little more than an inch. mr. eisenberg. you tested this with what type of ammunition, mr. simmons? mr. simmons. the ammunition was labeled type ball, and it was made by the western cartridge co., division of olin industries. mr. eisenberg. was that a . mm.? mr. simmons. . -mm. mannlicher-carcano. mr. eisenberg. in the course of this test from a machine rest, mr. simmons, did you also attempt to determine the muzzle velocity? mr. simmons. yes; we also measured muzzle velocities for approximately rounds of the ammunition. we gather from these measurements that the nominal velocity, the nominal muzzle velocity is of the order of , feet per second, and the velocity at about feet from the muzzle is approximately , feet per second. and there is some variation in velocity from round to round as there is with all small-arms ammunition. but the variation is relatively small, and within the same order of magnitude as for conventional ammunition. mr. eisenberg. did you test the bullets for yaw? mr. simmons. yes; we measured yaw also, and all measurements of yaw were also small. we had no values in excess of degrees, and many values were less than degree in yaw, indicating that the round is quite stable. mr. eisenberg. how did you test for yaw? mr. simmons. we took spark shadowgraph pictures at various stations down range from the muzzle, so that we actually have pictures of the position of the bullet relative to the top and bottom of our range. mr. eisenberg. did you bring those pictures with you? mr. simmons. no; i do not have them with me. mr. eisenberg. could you furnish those to the commission at a later date? mr. simmons. they could be made available later. i would like to point out these are not pictures, however. they are on large pieces of glass, and they are not photos. mr. eisenberg. can they be read by a layman? mr. simmons. that i do not know. i do not read them. mr. eisenberg. well, i wonder whether you can send them up, and we could take a look at them. mr. simmons. yes; we can have them forwarded. mr. eisenberg. was it reported to you by the persons who ran the machine-rest tests whether they had any difficulties with sighting the weapon in? mr. simmons. well, they could not sight the weapon in using the telescope, and no attempt was made to sight it in using the iron sight. we did adjust the telescopic sight by the addition of two shims, one which tended to adjust the azimuth, and one which adjusted an elevation. the azimuth correction could have been made without the addition of the shim, but it would have meant that we would have used all of the adjustment possible, and the shim was a more convenient means--not more convenient, but a more permanent means of correction. mr. eisenberg. by azimuth, do you refer to the crosshair which is sometimes referred to as the windage crosshair? mr. simmons. yes. mr. eisenberg. would you recognize these shims that i display to you, mr. simmons, as being the shims that were placed in the weapon? mr. simmons. i saw the shims only when they were in the weapon, but those look very much like what was evident from the external view, after they were in place. mr. eisenberg. for the record, mr. chairman, these shims were given to me by the fbi who told me that they had removed them from the weapon after they had been placed there by mr. simmons' laboratory. may i have these introduced as evidence? mr. mccloy. yes. mr. eisenberg. mr. simmons, i find there are three shims here. you mentioned two. would three be consistent with what you were told? mr. simmons. i was told two. these were put in by a gunsmith in one of our machine shops--rather a machinist in one of our machine shops. mr. eisenberg. mr. simmons, i wonder whether you could take these shims back after i have marked them to find out whether the three had been placed? mr. simmons. yes. mr. eisenberg. i am marking these , , and . they consist of three shims in three small envelopes. (the items referred to were marked commission exhibits nos. , , and , and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. mr. simmons, did you have a test run to determine the possibility of scoring hits with this weapon, exhibit , on a given target at a given distance under rapid-fire conditions? mr. simmons. yes; we did. we placed three targets, which were head and shoulder silhouettes, at distances of feet, feet, and feet, and these distances are slant ranges from the window ledge of a tower which is about feet high. we used three firers in an attempt to obtain hits on all three targets within as short a time interval as possible. i should make one comment here relative to the angular displacement of the targets. we did not reproduce these angles exactly from the map which we had been given because the conditions in the field were a little awkward for this. but the distance--the angular distance from the first target to the second was greater than from the second to the third, which would tend to correspond to a longer interval of time between the first and second impact than between the second and the third. the movement of the rifle was greater from the first to the second target than from the second to the third. mr. eisenberg. mr. simmons, were your marksmen instructed to aim at the three targets in consecutive order? mr. simmons. the marksmen were instructed to take as much time as they desired at the first target, and then to fire--at the first target, being at feet--to then fire at the target emplaced at feet, and then at the one at feet. mr. eisenberg. can you state where you derived these distances? mr. simmons. these distances were the values given on the survey map which were given to us. mr. eisenberg. are you sure they were not the values i gave to you myself? mr. simmons. i stand corrected. these are values--we were informed that the numbers on the survey map were possibly in error. the distances are very close, however. mr. eisenberg. for the record, the figures which i gave mr. simmons are approximations and are not to be taken as the commission's conclusive determination of what those distances are. mr. simmons. for our experiment, i do not see how a difference of a few feet would make any difference. mr. eisenberg. now, mr. simmons, did you take pictures or have pictures taken showing what that range looked like? mr. simmons. yes; i have copies of these pictures here. i show you three pictures--the first showing the window from which the weapon was fired in our experiments; the second showing the view of the three targets from the window; and the third showing a rifleman in position. mr. eisenberg. mr. simmons, did you take these pictures yourself? mr. simmons. no; these pictures were taken by one of the cameramen from the development and proof services. mr. eisenberg. did you see the scenes represented in these pictures? mr. simmons. yes. mr. eisenberg. are these pictures accurate reproductions of these scenes? mr. simmons. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, i would like to have the first, second, and third pictures described by mr. simmons admitted as exhibits. that will be for the first, for the second, and for the third. mr. mccloy. they may be admitted. (the photographs referred to were marked commission exhibits nos. , , and and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. mr. simmons, the targets were--well, can you describe the targets for us? mr. simmons. the targets are standard head-and-shoulders silhouettes, and they consist of approximately square feet in area. mr. eisenberg. how many marksmen were involved? mr. simmons. we used three riflemen. mr. eisenberg. and can you tell us what their background was? mr. simmons. yes. all three riflemen are rated as master by the national rifle association. two of them are civilian gunners in the small arms division of our development and proof services, and the third is presently in the army, and he has considerable background as a rifleman, and also has a master rating. mr. eisenberg. each fired one or more series of three rounds? mr. simmons. each fired two series of three rounds, using the telescopic sight. then one of the firers repeated the exercise using the iron sight--because we had no indication whether the telescope had been used. mr. eisenberg. so the total number of rounds fired was what? mr. simmons. . mr. eisenberg. did you bring with you targets or copies of the targets? mr. simmons. i brought photos of the targets. mr. eisenberg. did you take these photographs, mr. simmons, or have them taken under your supervision? mr. simmons. these photographs were taken by the photographic laboratory in our ballistic measurements laboratory, which is one of the complex of laboratories within the ballistic research laboratory. mr. eisenberg. can you verify these photographs as being accurate reproductions of the targets? mr. simmons. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, may i have these admitted as , and ? mr. mccloy. they may be admitted. (the photographs referred to were marked commission exhibits nos. , , and for identification and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. mr. simmons, could you discuss the results of the tests you ran, by using these photographs? mr. simmons. exhibit is the target which was emplaced at feet. all firers hit the first target, and this was to be expected, because they had as much time as they desired to aim at the first target. as you can see from the picture, the accuracy of the weapon is quite good. mr. mccloy. that first target is what distance? mr. simmons. feet. and we had to make an assumption here about the point of aim. it is quite likely that in fact each man was aiming at a different portion of the target--there were no markings on the target visible to the firer. mr. eisenberg. did i understand you just told the firers to aim at the target without referring to---- mr. simmons. yes. mr. eisenberg. there is an apparent crossline running darkly through that photograph. mr. simmons. these lines were drawn in afterwards, in order for us to make some measurements from the actual impact point. the target which was emplaced at feet, as shown in exhibit --we had rather an unusual coincidence with respect to this target. this involved the displacement of the weapon to a sufficient angle that the basic firing position of the man had to be changed. and because they knew time was very important, they made the movement very quickly. and for the first four attempts, the firers missed the second target. of course, we made a rather, i guess, disadvantageous error in the test by pointing out that they had missed on the second target, and there was a conscious effort made on the additional rounds to hit the second target. on the third target, the angle through which the weapon had to be moved to get to the third target from the second was relatively small, and there were only two rounds which did not hit the target at feet. one of these rounds, by the way, was used in the sequence where the iron sight was employed. mr. eisenberg. mr. simmons, when you said that the firers had to make a large shift relatively in their firing position, and were in a hurry, is this your interpretation or is this based on discussions with them subsequently? mr. simmons. this is based on discussions with the firers after the experiment. mr. eisenberg. after these tests were finished, did you make a determination of the amount of error--average amount of error in the aim of these riflemen? mr. simmons. yes. by assuming that all riflemen had aimed at the intersection of the lines that we have drawn on these pictures, we calculated the total aiming--the aiming error associated with the three riflemen--this is one number to describe the accuracy of all three riflemen. and against the first target the accuracy observed was about . mils, in standard deviation. against the second target, the accuracy was . mils. and against the third target, it was . mils. mr. eisenberg. again, could you convert those at a hundred yards to inches? mr. simmons. . of a mil at yards is approximately inches. . mils is approximately inches. and . mils is approximately - / inches. mr. eisenberg. in arriving at these figures, had you discounted the round-to-round dispersion as determined in the bench rest test? mr. simmons. yes. we have subtracted out the round-to-round dispersion. mr. eisenberg. but the actual accuracy of the riflemen would have to include the round-to-round dispersion, would it not? mrs. simmons. yes; it would. mr. eisenberg. why did you then subtract the round-to-round dispersion figure, or discount it? mr. simmons. we wanted to determine what the aiming error itself was associated with the rifle. mr. eisenberg. can you give us the times in which the various riflemen used to fire the three shots in each sequence? mr. simmons. yes. and the numbers which i will give you will be the average of two readings on stop watches. mr. eisenberg. for each rifleman? mr. simmons. for each exercise. mr. hendrix fired twice. the time for the first exercise was . seconds; the time for the second exercise was . seconds. mr. staley, on the first exercise, fired in - / seconds; the second attempt he used . seconds. specialist miller used . seconds on his first attempt, . seconds in his second attempt, and . seconds in his exercise using the iron sight. mr. eisenberg. what was the accuracy of specialist miller? mr. simmons. i do not have his accuracy separated from the group. mr. eisenberg. is it possible to separate the accuracy out? mr. simmons. yes; it is, by an additional calculation. mr. miller succeeded in hitting the third target on both attempts with the telescope. he missed the second target on both attempts with the telescope, but he hit the second target with the iron sight. and he emplaced all three rounds on the target, the first target. mr. eisenberg. how did he do with the iron sight on the third target? mr. simmons. on the third target he missed the boards completely. and we have not checked this out. it appears that for the firing posture which mr. miller--specialist miller uses, the iron sight is not zeroed for him, since his impacts on the first and second targets were quite high, and against the third target we would assume that the projectile went over the top of the target, which extended only a few inches over the top of the silhouette. mr. eisenberg. what position did the rifleman fire from, mr. simmons? mr. simmons. the firers braced an elbow on the window sill and used pretty much a standard sitting position, using a stool. mr. eisenberg. how much practice had they had with the weapon, exhibit , before they began firing? mr. simmons. they had each attempted the exercise without the use of ammunition, and had worked the bolt as they tried the exercise. they had not pulled the trigger during the exercise, however, because we were a little concerned about breaking the firing pin. mr. eisenberg. could you give us an estimate of how much time they used in this dry-run practice, each? mr. simmons. they used no more than or minutes each. mr. eisenberg. did they make any comments concerning the weapon? mr. simmons. yes; there were several comments made--particularly with respect to the amount of effort required to open the bolt. as a matter of fact, mr. staley had difficulty in opening the bolt in his first firing exercise. he thought it was completely up and it was not, and he had to retrace his steps as he attempted to open the bolt after the first round. there was also comment made about the trigger pull, which is different as far as these firers are concerned. it is in effect a two-stage operation where the first--in the first stage the trigger is relatively free, and it suddenly required a greater pull to actually fire the weapon. mr. eisenberg. mr. simmons, did you prepare a table showing the probability of hit at a given target at given ranges by riflemen with given degrees of accuracy? mr. simmons. well, we prepared a table which showed what the probability of a hit would be on specific sizes of target as a function of aiming error, and using the appropriate round-to-round dispersion also in these calculations. mr. eisenberg. what were the targets that you used in your calculations? mr. simmons. we used two circular targets, one of inches in radius and one of inches in radius, to approximate the area of the head and the area of the shoulders, or the thorax, actually. and a significant point to these calculations to us is that against the larger target, if you fire with the . mil aiming error which was observed against the first target, the probability of hitting that target is , and it is at all three ranges, out to feet. mr. eisenberg. can you explain the meaning of the probability being ? mr. simmons. well, the probability is effectively one. actually the number is . and several more digits afterwards. it is rounded off to . simply implying that the probability of a hit is very high with the small aiming errors and short range. mr. eisenberg. now of course this aiming error is derived from the three riflemen who you employed in the tests, is that correct? mr. simmons. yes. mr. eisenberg. could you proceed to the other two? mr. simmons. using the . mil aiming error, again at the larger targets, the probability of hitting the target at feet is ; at feet it is . ; and at feet it is . . mr. eisenberg. how would you characterize the second two figures in terms of probability? mr. simmons. these also are very high values. mr. eisenberg. the mil figure was . , was it? mr. simmons. yes. mr. eisenberg. does that include, did you say, both aiming error and round-to-round dispersion? mr. simmons. the . is the aiming error. when we include the round-to-round dispersion, it becomes only . mils. mr. eisenberg. does the probability reflect the . or the . figure? mr. simmons. it reflects the total error, which is . . mr. eisenberg. and the same on the first series of calculations you gave us? mr. simmons. yes. mr. eisenberg. would you go on to the third? mr. simmons. using the . mil aiming error, and the round-to-round dispersion, giving a total error of . mils, the probability of hit at the foot target is . ; at feet it is . ; at feet it is . . mr. eisenberg. could you give us the figures for the smaller target? mr. simmons. using the . mil aiming error, the probability of a hit at feet is . ; at feet, . ; at feet, . . for the . mil aiming error, the probability is . at feet; . at feet; . at feet. using the---- mr. eisenberg. can you characterize those, or explain them in lay terms? mr. simmons. well, against a shorter target, the probability is still almost . , which is a relatively high value. the effective-range increase is beginning to show, however, because at feet the value of . tends to be small. mr. eisenberg. does . mean you have chances in of hitting? mr. simmons. yes. now, our assumption throughout all of this is that the actual target was probably not either a small--the small area, but tending to be a larger area, as indicated by the crosshairs in these targets which we placed at this point. mr. eisenberg. now, you have given us probabilities of hit with three variations of aiming error. you have selected these three variations in what manner, mr. simmons? mr. simmons. these were actually the three values which were demonstrated in the experiment. mr. eisenberg. but each of those values is associated with one target? mr. simmons. yes. mr. eisenberg. however, you have applied them to all three targets? mr. simmons. yes. mr. eisenberg. did you have a special reason for doing that? mr. simmons. no. we are victims of habit, and we tend to provide such information in parametric form. mr. eisenberg. now, mr. simmons, of course the assassin's aiming error must be unknown. but do you have any opinion concerning the probable aiming error of an assassin using this weapon against the aiming error displayed by the three riflemen you employed? mr. simmons. well, it looks like to achieve hits as indicated, the accuracy, overall accuracy of the three rounds would have to be of the order of . mils. and this is really not a small number as far as marksmanship goes. there have been many exercises in which we have been involved where the aiming error turns out to be much smaller, smaller than this. and in match competition, of course, the numbers actually turn out to be--the total aiming error turns out to be about equal to the round-to-round dispersion. mr. eisenberg. when you make the reference to many exercises, are you referring to exercises solely with skilled riflemen? mr. simmons. if we have skilled riflemen, the values for aiming error tend to be of the order of mil. as a matter of fact, to qualify as expert on army rifle courses, about a mil aiming error is required--a standard deviation of mil. mr. eisenberg. is that with a rest or without a rest? mr. simmons. this would be without a rest. this would be the actual aiming error from the fixed position, firing range. mr. eisenberg. and is this with open or telescopic sights? mr. simmons. this would be with the peepsight on the conventional rifle. mr. eisenberg. have you exercises which you feel would be applicable to the assassination--that is, exercises conducted with--under noncombat conditions, with a telescopic sight and a rest? mr. simmons. the only experience that we have with the telescopic sight with which i am familiar is the exercise using this weapon. there have been experiments made using telescopic sights, but these are of limited interest militarily. mr. eisenberg. in your opinion, what effect does the introduction of a rest and telescopic sight have on probable aiming error? mr. simmons. from a position where the movement of the weapon is not great, and where the target is slowly moving, the fixed position on the telescope should enhance the probability of a hit. mr. eisenberg. do you think a marksman who is less than a highly skilled marksman under those conditions would be able to shoot in the range of . -mil aiming error? mr. simmons. obviously considerable experience would have to be in one's background to do so. and with this weapon, i think also considerable experience with this weapon, because of the amount of effort required to work the bolt. mr. eisenberg. would do what? you mean would improve the accuracy? mr. simmons. yes. in our experiments, the pressure to open the bolt was so great that we tended to move the rifle off the target, whereas with greater proficiency this might not have occurred. mr. eisenberg. could this experience in operating the bolt be achieved in dry practice, mr. simmons? mr. simmons. yes; it could be, if sufficient practice were used. there is some indication of the magnitude of change with one of our shooters who in his second attempt fired three-tenths of a second less time than he did in the first. mr. eisenberg. mr. simmons, has data been compiled showing the effect of the time taken between shots on the accuracy of the shots? mr. simmons. there have been experiments run where aiming error has been measured as a function of the time one has to aim. mr. eisenberg. do those experiments show that aiming error is directly proportionate to the length of time one has to aim? mr. simmons. not directly proportionate, but aiming error decreases as time increases. but once you get to the area of about seconds in time, then there is very small decrease in aiming error for increase in time. mr. eisenberg. translating that to this weapon, does that mean that taking more than seconds between three shots should not appreciably affect the degree of accuracy? mr. simmons. the seconds i was referring to is between shots. mr. eisenberg. you said seconds, i thought. mr. simmons. i beg your pardon. mr. eisenberg. and i was saying, if you took seconds between the first and second, and seconds between the second and third, for a total of seconds, on the basis of this data would that mean after seconds you would not be substantially increasing your accuracy by taking more time? mr. simmons. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. approximately how many bullets did you fire in the course of your tests? mr. simmons. we fired bullets. mr. eisenberg. did you have any misfires? mr. simmons. none. mr. eisenberg. were you aware when you performed your tests of the conclusions of any other body concerning the accuracy of this weapon? mr. simmons. no; we were not. mr. eisenberg. are you aware of such conclusions at this point? mr. simmons. no; i am not. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman? mr. mccloy. you said that these riflemen, or one or two of them at least, had the rank of master. what is that? mr. simmons. i again fall back on my comment earlier that i am not a shooter myself. a master is one of the ratings given to highly qualified riflemen by the national rifle association. these men have all participated in national match competitions in the national rifle association. mr. mccloy. is that a higher grade than sharpshooter in the army? mr. simmons. there is really no comparison between the rating of master in the nra and the rating of sharpshooter in the army. mr. eisenberg. i am not sure whether or not you answered this question, but do you feel that if the target was moving, rather than having the rifleman move, there would have been a difference in aiming error, increased or decreased aiming error--if the target was moving to miles an hour? mr. simmons. i think the movement of the target in this case would have practically no effect on the accuracy of fire, because from the map we are led to believe that the movement was primarily away from the firer, so that the back of the president was fully exposed to the rifleman at all times. mr. eisenberg. could you explain your reference to a map? you have made several references to that. mr. simmons. i refer to the survey plat which is dated december , . mr. eisenberg. and how were you supplied with that? mr. simmons. to the best of my knowledge, you gave it to one of the employees in my office. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, this is a plat made by a licensed surveyor of the area immediately adjoining the texas school book depository. i would like to introduce it into evidence solely to show the basis which mr. simmons was using in his test, and not for the truth of the measurements which are shown in here. mr. mccloy. it may be received. mr. eisenberg. that would be commission . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. i have no further questions. mr. mccloy. i have no further questions. mr. eisenberg. is there anything you would like to add to your testimony? mr. simmons. i think not. mr. eisenberg. i wonder whether we could have a copy of your table? mr. simmons. yes. mr. mccloy. from your experience, mr. simmons, do you feel that with a man who had been in the marine corps, with the rifle instruction he had there, using this rifle, and what you know of the shots that killed the president--do you think he was an extraordinarily good shot, do you think he was just shooting in accordance with what might be taken to be the skill that service in the marine corps would give him? mr. simmons. well, in order to achieve three hits, it would not be required that a man be an exceptional shot. a proficient man with this weapon, yes. but i think with the opportunity to use the weapon and to get familiar with it, we could probably have the results reproduced by more than one firer. mr. mccloy. i think that is all. mr. eisenberg. one thing, mr. chairman. may i have this admitted as , this table which mr. simmons prepared, from which he was giving testimony earlier? this is "table i, hit probability as a function of range and aiming error." mr. mccloy. it may be admitted. (the table referred to was marked commission exhibit no. and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. when you say proficiency with this weapon, mr. simmons, could you go into detail as to what you mean--do you mean, accuracy with this weapon, or familiarity with the weapon? mr. simmons. i mean familiarity basically with two things. one is the action of the bolt itself, and the force required to open it; and two, the action of the trigger, which is a two-stage trigger. mr. eisenberg. can familiarity with the trigger and with the bolt be acquired in dry practice? mr. simmons. familiarity with the bolt can, probably as well as during live firing. but familiarity with the trigger would best be achieved with some firing. mr. eisenberg. why is there this difference between familiarity with the bolt and familiarity with the trigger in dry firing? mr. simmons. there tends to be a reaction between the firer and the weapon at the time the weapon is fired, due to the recoil impulse. and i do not believe the action of the bolt going home would sufficiently simulate the action of the recoil of the weapon. mr. eisenberg. one further question. looking at the figures for aiming error, as discounted by round-to-round dispersion, how would you characterize the actual performance of men with this rifle--that is, not the accuracy of the weapon, but the accuracy of man and weapon. mr. simmons. i am not sure i understand your question. mr. eisenberg. do you feel on the basis of the aiming error, discounted for round-to-round dispersion or including it, that this weapon is an easy one with which to be accurate, or a difficult one? mr. simmons. it appears to be relatively conventional in that regard, i assume. the telescope helps in the accuracy against a target which is well displayed, as was the case here. and the weapon is reasonably conventional. so that i think it would not be significantly different from any other weapon. mr. mccloy. if you were having a dry run with this, you could certainly make yourself used to the drag in the trigger without discharging the rifle, could you not? mr. simmons. yes. but there are two stages to the trigger. our riflemen were all used to a trigger with a constant pull. when the slack was taken up, then they expected the round to fire. but actually when the slack is taken up, you tend to have a hair trigger here, which requires a bit of getting used to. mr. mccloy. this does not have a hair trigger after the slack is taken up? mr. simmons. this tends to have the hair trigger as soon as you move it after the slack is taken up. you achieve or you feel greater resistance to the movement of the trigger, and then ordinarily you would expect the weapon to have fired, and in this case then as you move it to overcome that, it fires immediately. and our firers were moving the shoulder into the weapon. mr. mccloy. i have no further questions. mr. eisenberg. that is all. mr. mccloy. thank you very much. you have been very helpful. we shall recess now until o'clock tomorrow morning. (whereupon, at : p.m., the president's commission recessed.) _wednesday, april , _ testimony of cortlandt cunningham and joseph d. nicol the president's commission met at a.m. on april , , at maryland avenue ne., washington. d.c. present were chief justice earl warren, chairman; representative hale boggs, representative gerald r. ford, and mr. allen w. dulles, members. also present were melvin aron eisenberg, assistant counsel; norman redlich, assistant counsel; samuel a. stern, assistant counsel; charles murray and charles rhyne, observers. testimony of cortlandt cunningham the chairman. the commission will be in order. mr. cunningham, the purpose of today's hearing is to take the testimony of yourself and mr. joseph nicol. we understand that you are a firearms expert with the fbi, and mr. nicol is a firearms expert with the bureau of criminal identification and investigation of the department of public safety of the state of illinois. you have both been asked to provide technical information to assist the commission in its work. would you raise your right hand and be sworn, please? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you shall give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. cunningham. i do. the chairman. will you be seated, please. you may proceed with the examination. mr. eisenberg. mr. cunningham, would you state your name and position? mr. cunningham. cortlandt cunningham. i am a special agent of the fbi. mr. eisenberg. and in what branch of the fbi do you work? mr. cunningham. i am assigned to the firearms identification unit of the fbi laboratory, here in washington, d.c. mr. eisenberg. what is your education? mr. cunningham. i have a bachelor of science degree from northwestern university, and a bachelor of laws degree from the university of miami. mr. eisenberg. could you briefly state your qualifications in the field of firearms identification? mr. cunningham. upon entering the fbi laboratory, i underwent an extensive training course under the supervision of experienced examiners in the field of firearms identification, which consisted of making thousands of examinations and comparisons of bullets, cartridge cases, and weapons. i have also done reading in the subject. i have done some research and conducted many experiments in the field. and, of course, i have made thousands of examinations on my own and testified numerous times in state and federal courts. mr. eisenberg. how many years have you been in the laboratory, mr. cunningham? mr. cunningham. over years, and i have been in the bureau over years. the chairman. the witness is qualified. mr. eisenberg. to begin with, mr. cunningham, we had some testimony yesterday on the bullet which is thought to have been fired at general walker. that is commission exhibit no. . are you familiar with this bullet, mr. cunningham? mr. cunningham. i am. mr. eisenberg. can you supply the weight of that bullet, which was going to be supplied to us? mr. cunningham. i can. this bullet weighed . grains. mr. eisenberg. does that show some weight loss, if the bullet was from a . mm. mannlicher-carcano cartridge? mr. cunningham. it does. those bullets weigh grains, but there is a great deal of mutilation on this bullet. mr. eisenberg. and could you tell us when you received this bullet in your laboratory, mr. cunningham? mr. cunningham. yes. it was received from the dallas office of the fbi on december , . mr. eisenberg. and when was it examined? mr. cunningham. it was examined that date. mr. eisenberg. mr. cunningham, i now hand you commission exhibit no. , and i ask you whether you are familiar with this exhibit, which, for the record, is a revolver. mr. cunningham. if you will excuse me, i won't open the cylinder. i have checked the cylinder, and there are expended or fired cartridge cases in the cylinder. mr. eisenberg. which you have placed in it for a special demonstration? mr. cunningham. i fired it, yes, prior to my testimony here today. i have seen this weapon before. mr. eisenberg. again for the record, this is the weapon which is believed to have been used in the murder of officer tippit. can you describe this weapon in terms of name, caliber and so forth? mr. cunningham. do you want me to describe it as it is today? mr. eisenberg. as it is today. mr. cunningham. as it is today, it is a . special smith and wesson, victory model revolver. mr. eisenberg. and was it always a . special? mr. cunningham. no, it was not. originally this weapon was known as a . - british service revolver. in this country the weapon would be known as a . caliber smith and wesson revolver, victory model. however, the british gave the designation . - to it. mr. eisenberg. was this revolver made in the united states? mr. cunningham. it was. mr. eisenberg. and has it been in england subsequent to that? mr. cunningham. yes. mr. eisenberg. and how can you tell that, mr. cunningham? mr. cunningham. well, first of all, all weapons going into england have to be proofed. they are proofed at, usually, the birmingham proofhouse. representative ford. what does that mean? mr. cunningham. they are tested for whether they will withstand a certain charge. they place in the cylinders overloaded cartridges, and they are fired, in the cylinder, as this one has been. it has been proofed to - / tons. each chamber in the cylinder has been proofed. you can tell that, because each chamber has been stamped with the birmingham proofmark, indicating that each chamber in the cylinder has been proofed. mr. eisenberg. mr. cunningham, could you explain to us the difference between a . s&w and a . special? mr. cunningham. they are completely different cartridges. one cartridge is a . special, and the other cartridge is a . s&w, or actually written out it would be smith and wesson. it was developed for their weapons, and it s quite an old cartridge, and it is known--usually as appears on a box of ammunition--as merely a . s&w. however, there are many differences in the cartridges. mr. eisenberg. have you brought two--an example of each type of cartridge with you? mr. cunningham. i have. first of all, this is actually a western . s&w cartridge. you will see the head stamping on the base of this cartridge signifies it to be a . s&w. mr. eisenberg. before you go any further--mr. chairman, may i have this marked as an exhibit--this specimen? i am holding a cartridge marked western . s&w, and it is submitted as commission exhibit . the chairman. it may be admitted. (the article referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. cunningham. if you would care to see one broken down, i have one with me. that is the same cartridge where the bullet has been pulled and the powder has been dumped out. mr. eisenberg. that is also a . s&w cartridge, but it has been disassembled into a bullet and a cartridge case? mr. cunningham. that is correct. the bullet has been pulled out of the cartridge case and the powder removed. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, may i have this admitted as an exhibit? the chairman. it may be. what is the number? mr. eisenberg. that will be . the chairman. it will be admitted as commission exhibit . (the article referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. cunningham. this particular cartridge, which is one complete cartridge, is a remington-peters . s&w. these two components actually are of the same cartridge. all i have done is pull the bullet, and it is also a remington-peters . s&w. mr. eisenberg. that is the same cartridge as exhibits and ? mr. cunningham. that is correct. the only difference is that they are different brands. they were made by two different manufacturers. mr. eisenberg. could you show that to the chairman for his examination? the chairman. these appear to be lead bullets. mr. cunningham. they are, sir. the chairman. the others appeared to be jacketed. mr. cunningham. they are not, sir. it is known as gilding metal. they are copper-coated lead bullets. actually, it is an alloy--it is not pure copper. they have been flash coated, for sales appeal, more than anything else. mr. eisenberg. does that coating serve to prevent distortion to any measurable extent when the bullet has penetrated a body? mr. cunningham. no, it would not, to any appreciable amount. it is such a thin coat, as you can see. later on i will show you the ones that have been fired, and also the bullets removed from officer tippit's body. you can see the coating comes off--it flakes off--it is very thin. mr. eisenberg. so that exhibits and are substantially similar to the r-p cartridge you have just been discussing? mr. cunningham. yes. they are both loaded to the same specifications, even though there are two manufacturers. all commercially made ammunition in this country is loaded to a specific muzzle velocity. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, may i have this r-p cartridge which mr. cunningham has been discussing admitted into evidence as commission exhibit ? the chairman. it may be admitted. (the article referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. you have been showing us a . s&w, mr. cunningham? mr. cunningham. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. do you have an example of a . special? mr. cunningham. i do. the first one is a western . special copper-coated lead bullet of western manufacture, a . special. the other components i have here are components of the same cartridge from which the bullet has been pulled. mr. eisenberg. may i have the cartridge case, bullet, and cartridge admitted into evidence as ? the chairman. it may be admitted. (the article referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. now, mr. cunningham, could you describe to us briefly the difference---- mr. cunningham. do you want the remington-peters? mr. eisenberg. you are holding in your hand a remington-peters disassembled and assembled . special? mr. cunningham. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. would you hand that to the chief justice? may this be admitted into evidence as exhibit ? the chairman. it may be admitted. (the article referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. this consists of an assembled r-p . special and a disassembled r-p . special. again, i notice, mr. cunningham, that the r-p bullet has a lead-colored look, whereas exhibit had a copper-colored look. mr. cunningham. yes, sir. the western coating is known by the trade name "lubaloy." it is a trade name of the western cartridge co., and it is nothing more than a gilding metal--actually, it is just a flash coating on the outside of the bullet. there is some advantage, a very small advantage, as to leading. but it is mostly for sales appeal, because with winchester bullets, some do and some don't have the coating. most of winchesters which is the same bullet, have not been copper coated--that they are selling today. mr. eisenberg. now, can you explain the difference in terms of dimensions and contour, weight, and so forth, between the . special bullets which you have just shown us and the . s&w bullets which you have shown to us? mr. cunningham. yes, sir. the complete . special cartridges, both brands, they are approximately the same--they are made to specifications, and they are within--just / th difference between the two of them. they are very close. in some cases, there is a slight difference, but generally they are the same size. the . special cartridges are a little over - / inches in length. the . s&w cartridges are approximately . inches in length. in other words, there is about / ths of an inch difference in their length. the bullets of the . special weigh grains--both brands. the bullets in the . s&w cartridges--there is one grain difference--western lubaloy bullets weigh grains, and remington's bullets weigh grains, which is very close, when you figure there are , grains to the pound. the length of the bullets themselves--the . special bullets are approximately . plus inch. the . s&w bullets are approximately . plus inch. the lengths of the cartridge cases are also different. a . special is approximately . inches for both brands. the . s&w cartridge cases are approximately . inch. and there you have approximately a quarter of an inch difference between the lengths of the cartridge cases. the diameters of the bullets--the . special bullets, at the portion of the bullet where the case is crimped into the bullet are approximately . ". mr. eisenberg. that is the groove around the base of the bullet, also known as the cannelure? mr. cunningham. no, it is just above the two grooves, which are known as cannelures, where the bullet is crimped. it is known as the crimp ring. it is nothing more than where the case has been crimped in. mr. eisenberg. i have pulled out the bullet from exhibit , and there is a little groove running above the second groove from the top--from the bottom, the base, of the bullet. mr. cunningham. that would be your crimping groove. up at approximately that area, both . specials are approximately . ". however, the bases of the . specials, both brands, are about . ". in other words, there is about / ths difference between the base and where they are crimped, and both brands of . specials seem to run--slightly undersized at the base. on the . special the diameter of the bullets where they are crimped is . ". the . s&w remington-peters bullets run about . ", or just slightly less, which is about / ths larger. their bases, both brands, run about . ". in other words, they run about / ths larger at the base--even though the bullets are shorter overall in the . s&w. mr. eisenberg. to summarize that, in terms of the diameter, do i understand that the . special and the . s&w have a similar diameter as you approach the nose of the bullet, but that the . has a somewhat larger diameter at the base than the . special? mr. cunningham. . s&w. mr. eisenberg. now, why would the gun be rechambered from the original chamber, which was designed for the . s&w, to the chamber as it stands now, which you tell us is designed for the . special? mr. cunningham. in this country, the . s&w is not a popular cartridge at the present time. in years gone by, many, many, many weapons have been made for that particular cartridge. but they are usually the top-break, the cheaper type of weapon. the . special cartridge is a better cartridge. there is a higher velocity and everything about the cartridge is better than the . s&w, ballistically. the . special has become popular in this country for revolvers. and the reason it was chambered in . s&w originally is because in england and on the continent it is a popular cartridge. the . s&w in england is the . - . they loaded a -grain bullet into the same cartridge case, and it was the standard british army load for this particular weapon and others. why they took that particular cartridge, i do not know. mr. eisenberg. was the gun rebarreled as well as rechambered? mr. cunningham. no, it was not. the barrel of this weapon has been cut off approximately - / inches. the original barrel was inches for this model. mr. eisenberg. would the failure to rebarrel affect the accuracy of the weapon? mr. cunningham. it should slightly, if you are firing . special bullets, because they are slightly undersized in a . s&w barrel. on the average, . s&w barrels are approximately / ths larger than the normal . special barrel. in this particular weapon, that holds true. mr. eisenberg. would it affect accuracy at close range? mr. cunningham. none whatsoever. and there, again, the shortening of the barrel would affect the accuracy more than the use of . special, due to the fact that your sight radius has been cut down. mr. eisenberg. that is to say, when you shorten the barrel, the length between the front and the back sights is shorter, therefore giving more room for error? mr. cunningham. yes, sir. in other words, the movement of the front sight will cause more of a discrepancy at the target at longer ranges, due to the shorter sight radius. mr. eisenberg. is there any functional reason for cutting the barrel down to its present short size? mr. cunningham. sales appeal, i would say, is the main reason. also, concealment. mr. eisenberg. in your experience, is a short barrel, cut-down barrel weapon like this usually purchased for legitimate purposes by other than police officers? mr. cunningham. possibly a collector. among target shooters, it is not a popular weapon, due to the short sight radius. revolvers with -inch barrels are very accurate weapons. a target shooter would not use a weapon of the short barrel type. therefore, it is not a very popular weapon for sportsmen. mr. eisenberg. does the cutting off of the barrel increase the possibility of concealment? mr. cunningham. it does, because it makes it handier. i carried, when i was in the field years--i carried my personally owned firearm, which had a -inch barrel, due to the fact that for concealment you could not see it when i wore a suit, and it was more discreet in the type of work i was doing. the chairman. can both kinds of cartridges be used interchangeably in this gun? mr. cunningham. in this particular gun, yes sir. it makes no difference. the chairman. either an s&w or s&w special? mr. cunningham. yes, sir; the chambers of this particular cylinder have been bored out, it appears from the very rough marks, to accommodate the forward portion of a . special cartridge. also, when this barrel was made--or the cylinder was made--the chambers had a shoulder or lip that the . s&w cartridge case would fit up against. the bullet would go forward farther, but the cartridge case would fit up against this shoulder at the neck. and in order to chamber a . special, that forward portion had to be bored out slightly, several thousandths to accommodate the longer cartridge, which, by the way, is a very common thing on these surplus weapons. practically all of them are being rechambered, due to the popularity of the . special cartridge. the chairman. i see. mr. eisenberg. mr. cunningham, this weapon--was this weapon sold into the united states after it had been used in england? mr. cunningham. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. how much sign of use does it show? mr. cunningham. it has definitely been used, there is no doubt. however, the cylinder is quite tight, and i would say that this weapon is in good operating condition. mr. eisenberg. now, since it was sold used, are you unable to attribute any amount of use to the last user? mr. cunningham. that is right, you would not be able to tell. mr. eisenberg. mr. cunningham, could you explain briefly the manner in which this revolver is operated, paying particular attention to extraction and loading and reloading? mr. cunningham. yes, sir. first of all, the weapon has a frame into which a barrel has been screwed and a cylinder which is hinged on a crane is also fitted into the frame. there is a cylinder release on the left-hand side of this weapon which enables one to push the cylinder to the left. the cylinder has six chambers--in other words, it is a six-shot weapon. there is an extractor rod and an extractor in the rear portion of the cylinder. when you press on the extractor rod, either loaded cartridges or fired cartridge cases may be extracted from the cylinder so that it may be reloaded again. mr. eisenberg. now, mr. cunningham, in the operation of this weapon, the cylinder takes six bullets--is that correct? mr. cunningham. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. in the operation of this weapon, when six bullets have been loaded into the cylinder, is any action needed for firing except six consecutive trigger pulls? mr. cunningham. that is correct. you can fire this weapon either single or double action. mr. eisenberg. now, can you explain the meaning of that? mr. cunningham. yes. double action is accomplished by pulling the trigger. in other words, you just pull the trigger each time and you can fire this weapon six times before reloading. this weapon can also be cocked, which puts the sear on the step of the hammer and reduces the trigger pull, and may be fired that way. this is known as single action. mr. eisenberg. now, if a person using the gun and having it fully loaded with six bullets fired less than six bullets, can he use this ejector-extraction mechanism without losing his unfired bullets as well as the empty cartridge cases? mr. cunningham. yes, sir--by merely tipping the weapon. the unfired cartridge is heavier, and will fall out of the cylinder into his hand. then he can extract the cartridge cases and load in more. mr. eisenberg. could you demonstrate that? mr. cunningham. if i may have a cartridge, please. mr. eisenberg. do you have any fired cartridges in the cylinder? mr. cunningham. yes, sir; i do. prior to my appearance here today, this morning, i fired five cartridges in this weapon, and they are still in the cylinder. mr. eisenberg. you are now placing an unfired---- mr. cunningham. an unfired cartridge in the sixth chamber of the cylinder. now, in a normal way, you would hit the cylinder release, push in your hand like this, and tip it up. the unfired cartridge will fall right out into your hand, due to the fact that the chambers of the cylinder are naturally larger than the cartridge you are loading in there--for ease of putting them in. when you fire a cartridge in a revolver, the case expands as wide as the cylinder. in other words, when the firing pin hits the primer, there is an explosion in the primer, the powder is ignited in the cartridge, and the terrific pressure will expand the cartridge case to tightly fit the chamber. mr. eisenberg. i would like the record to show that when mr. cunningham tipped the revolver, the unfired bullet tipped out, but the five expended shells remained in. the chairman. very well. mr. eisenberg. now, mr. cunningham, would you show how you would eject the five expended shells? mr. cunningham. yes. these are very difficult, by the way, to extract, due to the fact that the chamber has been rechambered. and as you can see, you get on your cartridge cases a little ballooning with these smaller diameter cases in the . special. mr. eisenberg. i would like the record to show that mr. cunningham extracted the five expended cartridge cases merely by one push of the ejector rod. mr. cunningham. you won't be able to see it again, but when you eject a cartridge case--later on for the powder pattern test, i will show that you can have residues of unburned powder. that is what would happen if you ejected these cartridge cases in your hand. you would pick up unburned powder, residues, and partially burned powder. mr. eisenberg. mr. cunningham had ejected five cartridge cases from the revolver into his hand, and his right hand is now filled with small black particles, whose composition i am unable to determine. representative ford. that would happen any time that you did it? mr. cunningham. yes, sir; every time you eject them, these particles will come out from the cylinder into your hand--unburned powder, partially burned powder, and gunpowder residues. representative ford. had you fired this morning these particular bullets? mr. cunningham. yes, sir; at : . mr. eisenberg. mr. cunningham, these cartridge cases which you ejected were . special cartridge cases? mr. cunningham. they were. mr. eisenberg. what time did you fire those bullets, those . special bullets in this revolver? mr. cunningham. at approximately : this morning. mr. eisenberg. let the record show that it is now : . now, mr. cunningham, could this revolver be loaded on the run, or while walking? mr. cunningham. it could. mr. eisenberg. have you personally loaded a revolver like this while walking? mr. cunningham. yes. and running. mr. eisenberg. does this revolver have a serial number on it? mr. cunningham. it does. mr. eisenberg. could you read that number to us, please? mr. cunningham. v- . mr. eisenberg. is this serial number unique to this particular type of weapon? mr. cunningham. yes. smith and wesson does not duplicate numbers. you may have a similar number, but not with the prefix "v." mr. eisenberg. so this is the only such weapon with this serial number that is in existence? mr. cunningham. that is correct. as far as i know. i have never found one in my experience, and smith and wesson does not duplicate serial numbers in a particular series of weapons. mr. eisenberg. smith and wesson claims not to duplicate? mr. cunningham. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. mr. cunningham, how fast could one get off shots from this weapon, shooting rapid fire, and without sighting? mr. cunningham. in a combat stance, that is crouched, with a gun at belt level, and your wrist locked, you would have no trouble at all getting off five shots in from to seconds. mr. eisenberg. with what degree of accuracy at close range? mr. cunningham. excellent. all fbi agents, for instance, practice at yards, which is feet, and we are hitting in the "kill zone" without any problem. mr. eisenberg. how much training would one have to have with this weapon to get four hits in four or five shots at close range into a human body? mr. cunningham. none whatsoever--if you can pull the trigger and point directly at a person, at feet you would not likely miss--with one exception. if you did not lock your wrist, there is a possibility you could shoot too low, or you could pull to the side. anyone with a little bit of knowledge and with--and really grabbing hold of the weapon, would have little difficulty at all at that distance. mr. eisenberg. when you say "lock your wrist," do you mean just pointing the wrist so that it is in a straight line with your lower forearm? mr. cunningham. yes. in other words, to tighten it, and not be in a relaxed position. by merely tightening the wrist, you would have no trouble at all hitting a person, approximately the same distance as mr. eisenberg and myself. the chairman. i suppose a person who had the normal small-arms training that he gets in the marine corps would have the ability to do what you have just spoken of? mr. cunningham. definitely, sir. as a matter of fact, with any training at all with a revolver, i would say that he would hit percent of the time. representative ford. is there a recoil action at all from this kind of weapon? mr. cunningham. yes, sir; you get recoil. but if you have had any training with a weapon of this sort, the recoil is not even noticed. the first time you ever fired this weapon the recoil or the noise, might bother you. but if you have ever fired a handgun, you don't even think about recoil. you automatically adjust. mr. eisenberg. mr. cunningham, you mentioned distance between you and me earlier, a few sentences ago. could you estimate that distance? mr. cunningham. approximately feet. mr. eisenberg. if there are no further questions on the revolver, i propose to move on to identification of bullets and cartridge cases associated with the tippit murder. the chairman. i have none. mr. eisenberg. mr. cunningham, i hand you commission exhibits nos. and , which, for the record, consist of bullets, unfired bullets which were found in the revolver and the pocket of lee harvey oswald following his arrest on november . i ask you whether you are familiar with the bullets in these exhibits. you are now looking at which exhibit, mr. cunningham? mr. cunningham. commission exhibit . i have seen them before. mr. eisenberg. can you describe these bullets very briefly? mr. cunningham. yes, sir. they are cartridges. there are four cartridges. two are western . special with copper-coated lead bullets loaded into these cartridges. the other two are remington-peters . special cartridges, which are loaded with lead bullets. mr. eisenberg. could you describe the bullets in the other exhibit? mr. cunningham. commission exhibit consists of one western . special cartridge, which is also loaded with a copper-coated lead bullet, and the other cartridge is a remington-peters . special cartridge, which is loaded with a lead bullet. mr. eisenberg. i now hand you another group of bullets, marked q- through q- . the chairman. mr. eisenberg, would you state for the record at this time what those two bullets are? they are introduced another time. mr. eisenberg. yes; all the bullets which mr. cunningham examined were found either in the pocket or the--pocket of lee harvey oswald--or the cylinder of his revolver at the time of his arrest on november . i now hand you another group of bullets marked q- through q- , and with certain other markings on them. are you familiar with these bullets? and may i state for the record that the bullets i have just handed mr. cunningham derive from the same source. mr. cunningham. i am familiar with these bullets. mr. eisenberg. could you describe these briefly? before i do that--mr. chairman, may i have these bullets admitted into evidence as a group, as exhibit ? the chairman. they may be admitted. (the articles referred to were marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) the chairman. at this time, i shall have to leave to attend a session of the supreme court. commissioner ford, would you preside? and, during the morning, commissioner dulles will be here, i am told, and if you leave, leave him in charge, will you, please? representative ford. yes, sir. the chairman. thank you very much. mr. cunningham, thank you for your assistance. glad to have seen you. (at this point, mr. warren withdrew from the hearing room.) mr. eisenberg. could you describe the bullets in exhibit , mr. cunningham? mr. cunningham. yes, sir; all five of them are western . special cartridges, which are loaded with copper-coated lead bullets. mr. eisenberg. so that of a total of--you have examined a total of bullets, and three are remington-peter--well, at any rate, of the they are divided and into remington-peter and western . special bullets? mr. cunningham. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. now, mr. cunningham, i hand you four cartridge cases in an envelope marked q- , q- , q- , and q- . and i ask you whether you are familiar with these cartridge cases. mr. cunningham, before going on to the cartridge cases i just handed you, could you explain when you received the bullets which are comprised in the last three exhibits, and who you received them from, and how they were presented to you? mr. cunningham. yes, sir. commission exhibit consists of the two cartridges that we received--the fbi received from the u.s. secret service. we received them on december , . that is correct. they were personally delivered to the laboratory by special agent orrin bartlett of the fbi, who is a liaison agent with the secret service. and he delivered them to us on december , . mr. eisenberg. and did he identify them in any way to you when he delivered them? did he describe their origin to you? mr. cunningham. no, sir; he did not describe them to us. mr. eisenberg. all right. could you go on to the next group of five cartridges? mr. cunningham. yes. i don't know the exhibit number. mr. eisenberg. that is exhibit . mr. cunningham. commission exhibit was received in the fbi laboratory from the dallas office of the fbi on november , . mr. eisenberg. can you tell us who you received them from? mr. cunningham. the dallas office of the fbi. i have no first-hand knowledge. i know that they were received from the dallas police department--but that was due to what i have read in an fbi investigative report. the laboratory received them from the dallas office on november . mr. eisenberg. can you go on to the last group of four bullets? mr. cunningham. commission exhibit was also received from the dallas office of the fbi on november , . mr. eisenberg. now, for the record, i would like to state that to the best of my knowledge the group of two and the group of four bullets, which together total six, were taken by the dallas police from the chamber of the revolver which is exhibit , after the apprehension of lee harvey oswald. they were then split into two groups of two and four as we have them now, two bullets being given to the secret service and eventually, as mr. cunningham relates, to the fbi, and four bullets going to the dallas office of the fbi. the group of five bullets was taken from a pocket of lee harvey oswald, following his apprehension on november and was kept separated from the remaining bullets, i believe, merely because they had been taken from a different source--that is, the pocket rather than the chamber of the revolver. mr. cunningham, returning to exhibit , do either of the two cartridges in exhibit bear any signs of having suffered an impact from the firing pin in the revolver, exhibit ? mr. cunningham. an examination of these two cartridges, the primers of these two cartridges, reveals no marks that could be associated with the firing pin in commission exhibit , or any other weapon. mr. eisenberg. are there any nicks on either of those cartridges? mr. cunningham. yes. there is a small nick, an indentation, up near the edge of the primer in the remington-peters . special cartridge. mr. eisenberg. could this nick have been caused by the firing pin? mr. cunningham. there was no indication, from an examination, that that nick had been so caused by a firing pin. first of all, it is in the wrong position, it is not in the center of the primer. and, also, a microscopic examination of that nick gave no indication that it was made by a firing pin. mr. eisenberg. did you microscopically examine the bases of both cartridge cases? mr. cunningham. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. now, turning to exhibit , consisting of four bullets, which, as i mentioned earlier, were, like the two bullets in exhibit , taken from the chamber of the revolver, did you find any nicks in any of these bullets, the bases of any of these bullets? mr. cunningham. just by handling, there are bound to be small microscopic scratches of one kind or other. but there was no indication that any of the primers in these four cartridges had been struck by a firing pin. mr. eisenberg. were these also examined microscopically? mr. cunningham. they were, individually. mr. eisenberg. when you say there was no indication that they were struck by a firing pin, in your opinion, based on the construction of this weapon, if the firing pin had been drawn back to any extent and then released, would it have left a mark on one of the cartridges? mr. cunningham. that is--yes and no. it depends on how far it is drawn back. as soon as the hammer internally clears the rebound block, the hammer is then able to go forward and it probably would have fired. but up to that point, the hammer is held back from striking, it cannot--under normal conditions--be made to fire a cartridge. however, it has been found with this particular weapon, a drop of approximately feet on the hammer would fire a cartridge in the chamber. representative ford. how far back does the hammer have to be drawn in order to fire? mr. cunningham. that can be shown very easily by holding the cylinder. by holding the cylinder, that distance can be seen, which is approximately / to / inch. mr. eisenberg. the witness is demonstrating. the hammer, as he says, is going back about / of an inch. mr. cunningham. once you allow the cylinder to rotate, then the rebound block is pushed out of the way, as you can see. then you can cock the weapon. mr. eisenberg. could you demonstrate for us the sound which would be heard if you held the cylinder, pulled back, and then released the trigger? mr. cunningham. yes. a snapping sound can definitely be heard. mr. eisenberg. there is a very audible snapping sound. would that snap--that amount of snap--leave a mark on the base of the cartridge case against which the firing pin---- mr. cunningham. under these conditions it could not leave a mark, because the rebound block is in the way. mr. eisenberg. when you say rebound block, this is a block between the firing pin and the base of the cartridge case? mr. cunningham. no, sir; it is the block that is forcing the trigger to go forward after it is pulled back. you see, your trigger will snap back. it is done by a spring in the block. mr. eisenberg. to put it differently, this block would prevent the firing pin from emerging from its hole? mr. cunningham. that is correct. that is exactly it. mr. eisenberg. now, could the firing pin emerge from its hole without having traveled a considerable distance back? that is, to say, at what point does the rebound block release the hammer? mr. cunningham. at approximately--well, right there you can hear it. that is a good half inch. mr. eisenberg. could you pull it back and then release that half an inch to disengage the rebound block? (the witness did so.) mr. eisenberg. if the firing pin hit the cartridge with that amount of force, do you believe the cartridge would be fired? mr. cunningham. yes, sir; i do. mr. eisenberg. is there any possibility it would not be fired? any substantial possibility? mr. cunningham. it would still make a mark. mr. eisenberg. it would make a mark, at any rate? mr. cunningham. let me clarify it. it still will not fire because the block will go forward. mr. eisenberg. what will go forward? mr. cunningham. in other words, the trigger has to be pulled through the whole cycle in a smith---- mr. eisenberg. in order to disengage---- mr. cunningham. either that, or cocked before the block will be out of the way. when you pull the trigger and you don't release it or if it is in the cocked position and the trigger is pulled and not released, the hammer will stay forward. the firing pin will stay forward, so you can see it out through the breech face, as long as the trigger is pulled. then when you release the trigger, the rebound block throws your trigger forward, so the weapon can be fired again. mr. eisenberg. you are modifying what you had said previously? mr. cunningham. yes. mr. eisenberg. and you do that upon closer examination of the weapon? mr. cunningham. no; it is on the basis of trying to describe an internal part without seeing it. if you would care to, i can show you what it looks like. i have a photograph of the national rifle association breakdown. it would be easier to explain if i could show you what i am referring to. mr. eisenberg. could you, please? mr. cunningham. yes. mr. eisenberg. before you refer to this diagram, could i take a look at it? congressman ford, could i have that diagram admitted into evidence? representative ford. it will be admitted. mr. eisenberg. that will be . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) representative ford. mr. eisenberg, do you want the whole article? mr. eisenberg. i think we might as well put the whole article in, yes. (to mr. cunningham.) perhaps it would be easiest if you came around here, since the diagram is a small one. now, the diagram which you are referring to is on page , the second page of this exhibit ? mr. cunningham. right. as you can see, it is a diagram with the sideplate removed, which is this portion right here. it is the right-hand side of the weapon. (witness pointing to revolver.) we are looking down on it with the sideplate on. these four screws hold on the sideplate. when you pull the trigger of---- mr. eisenberg. the sideplate is marked over here? mr. cunningham. yes--no. is the sideplate. mr. eisenberg. that is in the diagram. mr. cunningham. no. in the diagram is the trigger. there is a sear arrangement on the trigger, attached to the trigger. if you cock it, the sear arrangement will go up into a notch on the hammer right there, and hold it back--right in here. mr. eisenberg. that is number---- mr. cunningham. you see, this is the sear. mr. eisenberg. mr. cunningham, could you use numbers? mr. cunningham. yes. no. is the sear, and the sear is attached to the trigger, which is no. in the diagram. mr. eisenberg. now, we are referring to the first page of the exhibit. mr. cunningham. when the trigger is pulled on this particular weapon, or if the hammer is drawn back, there is a notch on the hammer which is engaged by the sear. when the hammer is back you have to pull the trigger to disengage the sear mechanism from the hammer. when you pull back and it is in the notch, that is known as single-action firing. also, no. in the diagram is known as the rebound slide or block, and this rebound slide is positioned right behind the trigger on an internal part of the weapon. when the trigger is pulled, the recoil slide runs in a horizontal direction. as you can see by the larger drawing right here--it is a small camming action. it comes up, and is being pushed back. mr. eisenberg. that is in the middle of the second page of the exhibit. mr. cunningham. now, do you see the rounded portion of the hammer right here, right in front of the notch? mr. eisenberg. that is no.---- mr. cunningham. number--on no. , the hammer, on the bottom, right next to the notch that the sear engages, is a rounded portion. that is--in actuality, this rebound slide acts as an internal safety, so the hammer cannot go forward unless the trigger is pulled or it is cocked, because it is in the way. it cannot go all the way forward, due to the fact that--right there you can see it very plainly in the schematic numbered drawing on page . mr. eisenberg. the number you are pointing to is what? mr. cunningham. it is on the trigger, number---- mr. eisenberg. forty-two? mr. cunningham. not trigger--the hammer, no. . by the way, on the prior i meant . i got the wrong number. i was referring to the right piece, but the wrong number. but you can see this little--it is like a curved portion. it prevents the hammer from going any further forward. the firing pin will not come out of the hole in the breech face. now, as soon as you pull the hammer back, the rebound slide, no. , is out of the way. also, when you pull the weapon through double action, that slide pushes back, and your sear doesn't even touch the groove in the hammer, but it just keeps on going right on through. in other words, you are pulling the trigger strictly against the mainspring all the way. when it is on the notch, it is being held, and the only pressure needed, is to take off the sear. mr. eisenberg. now, mr. cunningham, to focus this line of questioning, officer mcdonald, who has reported that he was in a struggle with lee harvey oswald on november d, while oswald was in possession of this revolver, has stated that--i am reading now from an affidavit, from a letter from officer mcdonald to mr. j. e. curry, chief of police of the dallas police force, dated december , . he states in this letter that as he came in contact with oswald, "i managed to get my right hand on the pistol over the suspect's hand. i could feel his hand on the trigger. i then got a secure grip on the butt of the pistol. i jerked the pistol and as it was clearing the suspect's clothing and grip, i heard the snap of the hammer, and the pistol crossed over my left cheek. i marked the pistol and six rounds at central station. the primer of one round was dented on misfire at the time of the struggle with the suspect." now, in light of your examination of this weapon, and your discussion, could you comment on this statement? mr. cunningham. i personally have fired this weapon numerous times, as well as special agents robert frazier and charles killion. at no time did we ever attempt to fire this weapon that it misfired. it operated excellently and every time we have tried to fire it, it has fired. it is very possible when he says that he reached across, and he grabbed it, that he locked the cylinder, which i think any trained police officer would do. you want to stop this cylinder from rotating. as soon as you do that, you have actually stopped the hammer falling on a live round, because if the hammer is allowed to go forward again, and it hasn't gotten into the cocked position, the rebound slide, as i was stating before, would block the firing pin from striking the primer of the cartridge. mr. eisenberg. as i understand it, the cylinder is so interconnected with the trigger, that the trigger cannot be pulled all the way back when the cylinder has been firmly grasped? mr. cunningham. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. and if the hammer has not been pulled all the way back, the rebound slide will not allow the firing pin to strike the cartridge? mr. cunningham. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. now, officer mcdonald's statement that the primer of one round was dented on misfire: as far as you can tell, could this statement be confirmed? mr. cunningham. no, sir; we found nothing to indicate that this weapon's firing pin had struck the primer of any of these cartridges. mr. eisenberg. now, if the firing pin had struck the primer, it could only have been after the trigger was pulled all the way back, under the discussion you have just given us, is that correct? mr. cunningham. or after cocking. mr. eisenberg. or after it had been cocked and pulled? mr. cunningham. yes; if it is in the cocked position, grabbing the cylinder will do you no good; due to the fact that in the very operation of cocking this weapon, the cylinder is rotated, and it is ready to be fired. mr. eisenberg. now, in either event, the hammer would have traveled almost to the outermost extremity to which it can go. that is, the hammer would have traveled back all the way, whether it was cocked or fired in a double-action manner. if that had happened, what would the likelihood be that upon returning to the cartridge case, it would not fire the cartridge case--that upon returning to the cartridge, the cartridge would not be fired? mr. cunningham. you mean actually the hammer had gone all the way through its cycle? mr. eisenberg. yes. mr. cunningham. i can only say that from my examination internally, as well as having fired this weapon--i found no reason why you would get a misfire with this weapon. mr. eisenberg. now, if a man had put his hand between the hammer and the point at which the hammer enters, with the firing pin, into the breech face, would that stop the weapon from firing? mr. cunningham. yes and no. it is very possible that you can do it. and it hurts, by the way, because the mainspring in this one--you can see the indentation in my thumb--is a very strong mainspring. it would be possible. you could put something in there. now, the question is when you pull that object out, would there be enough distance and enough force to set off the primer? that is quite a moot point, because you could grab the hammer and recock it. mr. eisenberg. apart from that question, would the man's finger or whatever object he stuck in there be firmly fixed for a second or two, between the hammer and the breech face? mr. cunningham. it could be. mr. eisenberg. would he feel the impact? mr. cunningham. he would definitely feel the impact--if he had a piece of tissue of his hand in between. now, if a piece of material, of course, went between it which i don't know how it could happen--if you were struggling over the gun, and he said he grabbed the gun--i don't know how he could have anything except a portion of his hand, and i am sure he would feel it if the trigger was pulled. mr. eisenberg. finally, if he had just grasped the cylinder, and oswald had pulled back on the trigger, could you demonstrate the sound which might have been heard? mr. cunningham. yes; you can hold it, and you get a snapping sound--if the gun is grabbed away forcefully, and he would be really grabbing hard. so there could have been an attempt to shoot and a snap would be heard. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. the only thing which is unlikely is that the primer would be dented on the misfire? mr. cunningham. you would not get any denting if the cylinder was held and the gun was jerked forcibly out of oswald's hands. you would hear the snap, but you would get no mark on the primer whatsoever. the same thing he could hear if he jerked it out of his hands and he accidentally, somehow, hit the hammer--you would still get a noise, a snapping sound. but the firing pin would not come in contact with the primer of the cartridge. representative ford. because of the discussion we had a few minutes ago? mr. cunningham. yes, sir. representative ford. using the diagram that was inserted as exhibit . mr. eisenberg. one final question. officer mcdonald says in this letter, "i then got a secure grip on the butt of the pistol." now, would that grip in itself in any way interfere with the action of the pistol--the revolver? mr. cunningham. i don't know what he means by that. mr. eisenberg. if he means what he says, that is, if he got a secure grip on the butt---- mr. cunningham. if he got a secure grip on the butt, that would take him away. mr. eisenberg. take him away from what? mr. cunningham. that would take him away from the cylinder. if you are fighting over a weapon, the first thing is to get it off of you and then get hold of the cylinder. and then you can get both hands on the gun to jerk it away. that is what i would do. as i say, it is the way we are taught. you want to get the gun off of you first, so you are not in direct line, and then go in and attempt to get it away from the person. mr. eisenberg. now, suppose the gun was pulled away from oswald as oswald had his grip on the trigger, so that he could not get the trigger through the complete cycle. would there be a snapping noise made? mr. cunningham. definitely. if you locked the cylinder and jerked it away, you would get a snapping noise. mr. eisenberg. suppose you did not lock the cylinder, but for some reason or other the full trigger cycle was not gone through? mr. cunningham. then you would also get it. it would be difficult, but you could get it. mr. eisenberg. how hard do you have to pull on that trigger in order to fire the weapon? mr. cunningham. for double action--that is, without cocking, it is approximately to pounds, which is normal for this type of weapon. mr. eisenberg. now, i handed you earlier four cartridge cases in a plastic envelope marked q- , q- , q- , and q- , also marked c -c . are you familiar with these cartridge cases? mr. cunningham. i am. i have previously looked at them. mr. eisenberg. do they have your mark on them? mr. cunningham. they do. right on the side of each one, right there. mr. eisenberg. when did you receive these cartridge cases? mr. cunningham. these cartridge cases were received from the dallas office of the fbi on november , . mr. eisenberg. for the record, i would like to state that these cartridge cases were found in the immediate proximity of the site at which officer tippit was killed. they were found on the ground near the street where officer tippit was killed on november . representative ford. these are the ones that were found in the street near the automobile? mr. eisenberg. well, either in the street or in a lawn in front of a private residence, or semiapartment house. representative ford. i see. in other words, they were possibly some of those that were on the lawn in the front of ? mr. eisenberg. yes, sir; again, for the record only, since this witness is unable to testify as to where they were picked up. the mechanism of this revolver is such that the shells are not ejected until the user decides to eject them--unlike a bolt-action rifle where the cartridge must be ejected where you shoot from. mr. chairman, i would like to have these four cartridge cases introduced into evidence as . representative ford. they may be admitted. (the articles referred to were marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. now, mr. cunningham, could you describe the make of these cartridge cases? mr. cunningham. two of these cartridge cases are remington-peters . special cartridge cases. the other two cartridge cases are western . special cartridge cases. mr. eisenberg. now, you examined earlier six bullets which i told you had been--six cartridges which i told you had been taken from the chamber of the revolver which we have been looking at. those cartridges were divided into three remington-peters and three western, were they not? (at this point, representative boggs entered the hearing room.) mr. cunningham. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. so that--or - . so that the division is the same, the division of the cartridge cases is the same, as between remington-peters and western, as the division of the cartridges found--which i told you were found in the chamber? mr. cunningham. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. did you examine the cartridge cases in exhibit in an attempt to determine whether they had been fired in exhibit , the revolver, to the exclusion of all other revolvers? mr. cunningham. i did. mr. eisenberg. can you tell us your conclusion? mr. cunningham. as a result of my examination, it is my opinion that those four cartridge cases, commission exhibit , were fired in the revolver, commission exhibit , to the exclusion of all other weapons. mr. eisenberg. when did you perform this examination, mr. cunningham? mr. cunningham. on november , . mr. eisenberg. and how did you make the examination? mr. cunningham. i first marked these cartridge cases upon receiving them. there were four. i would like to state, first of all that special agents frazier and killion also independently examined these four cartridge cases, and made the same comparisons that i am going to state. i am telling you what i found--although they independently arrived at the same conclusion. the cartridge cases were first marked and examined for the presence of any individual characteristic marks on these cartridge cases whereby it would be possible to identify them as having been fired in a weapon. i then test-fired commission exhibit , using similar ammunition, and microscopically compared the four cartridge case--one at a time--that is commission exhibit --with the tests obtained from the revolver, commission exhibit . mr. eisenberg. i hand you here two cartridge cases, and ask you whether you are familiar with these cartridge cases? mr. cunningham. i am. mr. eisenberg. and can you describe these cartridge cases to us? mr. cunningham. yes. one is a western . special cartridge case. the other is a winchester . special cartridge case. mr. eisenberg. and how did you get possession of these cartridge cases? mr. cunningham. these were test-fired in commission exhibit no. , by myself. mr. eisenberg. so these are the test cartridges you were referring to? mr. cunningham. that was a portion of them; yes. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, may i have these admitted as commission exhibit ? representative ford. they will be admitted. (the articles referred to were marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. cunningham. i also would like to state that we were test firing remington-peters, also. mr. eisenberg. how many test cartridges were fired, mr. cunningham? mr. cunningham. to begin with, three. and we have since fired the weapon many times. representative boggs. how many cartridges were fired by oswald? mr. eisenberg. we are going to get into that. this is a difficult question which you are going to have to make a decision on. so i would rather develop that slowly. i notice that one of the cartridge cases in exhibit is split on the side, mr. cunningham. mr. cunningham. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. why is that? mr. cunningham. that is due to the oversized chambers of this revolver. as i previously testified, the weapon was originally chambered for the . s&w, which is a wider cartridge than . special. and when a . special is fired in this particular weapon, the case form fits to the shape of each chamber. and in one of those cartridges, the metal just let go. normally it does not; however this one particular case split slightly. representative ford. does that have any impact on the rest of the operation? mr. cunningham. no, sir. as a matter of fact, i test-fired the weapon originally, and i didn't even know it had split until i tried to eject it. mr. eisenberg. you mentioned before, by the way, that there had been no misfires with this weapon. approximately how many times was the weapon fired altogether? mr. cunningham. i would have no way of knowing exactly, but i imagine we are approaching close to a hundred times by now. mr. eisenberg. and no misfires? mr. cunningham. and no misfires. mr. eisenberg. now, mr. cunningham, did you take photographs of the cartridge cases which you have just identified as having been fired from , and the cartridge cases which are commission exhibit no. ? mr. cunningham. i did. mr. eisenberg. did you make your identification on the basis of the photographs or on the basis of your examination under the microscope? mr. cunningham. my conclusions were arrived at strictly on the basis of my examinations. these photographs in no way entered into the identification and are strictly for demonstrative purposes. mr. eisenberg. could you show us these photographs, mr. cunningham? mr. cunningham. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. let's take them one at a time, and let's introduce them as exhibits, one at a time. i have here--you have given me five photographs. did you take each of these photographs? mr. cunningham. as a matter of fact; i did. i personally took these. mr. eisenberg. and these are photographs of what? mr. cunningham. they are photographs of the individual characteristic marks on the base and in the firing-pin impression on test cartridge cases obtained from oswald's revolver, and also the marks on the base and in the firing-pin impression on the cartridge cases, commission exhibit no. . mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, i would like these admitted, if you would, as , , , , and . representative ford. they may be admitted. (the documents referred to were marked commission exhibits nos. through , and received in evidence.) representative ford. will the witness explain to the commission what they mean? mr. eisenberg. yes; he will. did you also make a photograph of the breech face of the weapon, mr. cunningham? mr. cunningham. i did. i didn't take this photograph. i was present when it was taken. i have compared the negative with the actual breech face of commission exhibit , and i found it to be a true and accurate reproduction. mr. eisenberg. could you show us that photograph? may i have that admitted as , mr. chairman? representative ford. it may be admitted. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. could you show us the area of the revolver which corresponds to the area shown in the photograph, exhibit ? mr. cunningham. yes, sir. the cylinder was first removed to facilitate the photograph. that is very easily done by removing the forward sideplate screw, which is just above the trigger, which allows the crane to slide right out, and the cylinder removed. the photograph was taken from the right side, looking in toward the firing-pin hole. representative boggs. just the way you are holding the revolver now? mr. cunningham. yes, sir; just the way i am holding it now. representative boggs. with the cylinder removed? mr. cunningham. with the cylinder removed. mr. eisenberg. now, there is a cylindrical-shaped object in the center of that picture, mr. cunningham. could you describe what that is--right in the center of the picture? mr. cunningham. that is known by two different names. it is known as a hammer-nose bushing, or a recoil block. it is--smith and wesson presses this particular block in. it forms the hole through which the firing pin comes out of the breech face. mr. eisenberg. that is, the firing pin strikes the center of the cartridge, or the primer, as it is called? mr. cunningham. yes. mr. eisenberg. which causes the cartridge to fire. now, what is the magnification of the photograph of the breech face? mr. cunningham. of the breech face, it is approximately times. mr. eisenberg. there are a number of markings or lines on this breech face. are these the microscopic characteristics which reproduce on the cartridge cases? mr. cunningham. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. and are the microscopic characteristics of this breech face individual to this weapon, to the exclusion of all other weapons? mr. cunningham. they are. mr. eisenberg. this is your method of determining that a given cartridge case has been fired from a given weapon? mr. cunningham. the breech face marks, as well as the individual imperfections in the firing pin. representative boggs. let me ask a very elementary question, the answer to which i used to know years ago, but i have forgotten. just exactly what does the firing pin do? what happens after that strikes? mr. cunningham. well, it is easier to start with the cartridge itself. the components of a cartridge are a bullet, a cartridge case, a primer in the base of the cartridge case, and powder. now, the primer is made out of a very soft metal that can be dented. these primers at manufacture are filled with, basically, an explosive. for instance, remington-peters cartridges have petn, which is one of du pont's explosives. rdx is used as one of the components of western cartridge cases, as well as lead styphnate, lead azides, and other explosive materials. when the firing pin strikes, there is a small explosion. fire is given off---- representative boggs. how does that bring about the explosion? mr. cunningham. it is sensitive to detonation by a sharp blow. mr. eisenberg. that is, the primer is sensitive? mr. cunningham. yes; it is an explosive. to differentiate from the powder, which is not explosive. powder burns. mr. eisenberg. now, i have taken commission exhibit no. , which consists of an unfired cartridge, and there is a round circle in the middle of the base of that cartridge. is that the primer? mr. cunningham. yes. that is actually a separate entity that has been pressed into a hole in the base of the cartridge case. mr. eisenberg. and that is more sensitive to shock than the powder in the cartridge case itself? mr. cunningham. yes. powder is relatively insensitive. you don't set off powder by a blow. mr. eisenberg. but the primer is quite sensitive? mr. cunningham. that is normally. i am talking about a normal blow. the primer is very sensitive. i just named a few of the components, but there are many other compounds in priming mixtures, which are considered secret by each company. but i know that they are explosive mixtures. and the actual striking of the firing pin--with enough force--causes a small detonation to occur. the fire given off, goes through holes in the base, and into where the powder is, and starts the powder burning. it is the gases that are given off when powder burns, which actually cause the bullet to move forward--the pressure builds up behind it, and the bullet goes forward. representative boggs. that is a very good explanation. thank you. mr. eisenberg. mr. cunningham, i wonder whether you could review the pictures with us, and discuss some of the markings which you found in those pictures that led you to decide that the cartridge cases shown therein have been fired in the revolver we have been discussing. mr. cunningham. yes. the first photograph is a photograph of the breech-face marks, the individual characteristic marks remaining on test cartridge cases obtained from the revolver, and on the c- cartridge case that was recovered from the scene. c- is on the left. c- is on the right. and the hairline, the magnified hairline down the center separates the two cartridge cases. mr. eisenberg. now, is the invariable procedure to put the test cartridge on the right and the suspect cartridge on the left? or at least is that your standard procedure? mr. cunningham. i usually put the suspect on the left. mr. eisenberg. well, in the photographs at any rate, in all the photographs we are going to see, the test cartridge is on the right, and the suspect cartridge is on the left? mr. cunningham. usually. mr. eisenberg. and what is the magnification of this photograph? mr. cunningham. it is approximately times. mr. eisenberg. could you go on, please? mr. cunningham. yes. on the left you will see the stamping, "sp", which is in the cartridge case itself. and over here next to the hairline you will see the individual characteristic marks. and you will see similar marks continuing on the other side of the hairline. on the c- , the revolver side, you will see a dark portion running vertically down through. that is the space that the congressman was asking about--how it fits the primer. that is the small space at the top where the primer fits into the base of the cartridge. and over here to the right of that dark mark you will see a lighter colored object with more individual characteristic marks, that is actually the primer, the individual characteristic marks on the primer of the test cartridge case. mr. eisenberg. now, as i understand it, in effect this picture can be viewed as a composite cartridge? that is, the picture on the left begins where the picture on the right ends, in terms of position on the cartridge case? mr. cunningham. in essence; yes. mr. eisenberg. and the point of the picture is to show that when you make this composite, the lines on each case show up as if there were no composite at all, but as if they were simply one case, because they are so close together in microscopic markings? mr. cunningham. yes; in proximity. and they are brought together. representative boggs. and so similar? mr. cunningham. yes. representative boggs. what is the magnification again? mr. cunningham. that is approximately times. mr. eisenberg. are there any dissimilarities on the two--on the test and the suspect cartridge cases, mr. cunningham? mr. cunningham. yes, sir; there are always dissimilarities. however, the similarities so outweigh the dissimilarities that it is an identification. if there are no dissimilarities, i would be suspicious that it would be faked--using the same photograph and just cut and put together. there are always dissimilarities. mr. eisenberg. can you explain why there are always dissimilarities when the two cartridge cases are fired in the very same weapon? mr. cunningham. the metal is different; one cartridge case is slightly harder than another; for some reason the cartridge case wasn't driven back, upon firing, into the breech face exactly the same way. in other words, these marks are reproducing, but you don't get exactly the same hit. it would not be possible to get exactly the same hit time after time with different cartridge cases. representative ford. what ratio of similarities and dissimilarities do you have to have? mr. cunningham. there is no ratio. based upon the examiner's training and experience, he comes to the conclusion that a particular cartridge case or bullet has been fired from a particular weapon. as in this photograph, you can see the dissimilarity is very slight. these are excellent marks. representative ford. there was never any doubt in your mind, then? mr. cunningham. none whatsoever. mr. eisenberg. you say these are particularly strong marks? mr. cunningham. these are very, very, good marks. mr. eisenberg. now, these marks are on the brass, so to speak, of the cartridge case, rather than in the primer? mr. cunningham. yes; that is correct. actually, it is brass, it is nickelplated brass. mr. eisenberg. is that unusual, to be able to pick up such strong marks in the brass as opposed to the primer of the cartridge case? mr. cunningham. it is not really unusual; no. it depends upon the particular weapon. mr. eisenberg. did you also examine the microscopic markings on the primer? mr. cunningham. i did. mr. eisenberg. and you found what? mr. cunningham. i could identify the weapon on the basis of the imperfections, individual characteristic marks, in the firing-pin impression. mr. eisenberg. the firing-pin impression. and what about the area of the primer around the firing-pin impression? mr. cunningham. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. in other words, each of these three areas--the brass, the primer, and the firing-pin impression--carries individually characteristic microscopic marks which would be the basis of identification? mr. cunningham. yes, you cannot make a flat statement. mr. eisenberg. no; in this case. mr. cunningham. in this particular case, i knew at the time i was examining it, all of the firing-pin impressions were excellent, and some portions of the breech-face marks were. but you cannot say they will mark in exactly the same place, due to the fact that these cases will mark in different areas, they are different cartridges, they have been fired at a different time. you will get good areas, and then in another area your marks will not be sufficient. in other words, it is just the way the cartridge case was driven back at the time of the explosion in the primer, and the bullet is fired. they can hit slightly different, hit deeper on one side, be lighter on the other. when a primer is set in a little bit deeper, it will not pick up these marks on the primer part, whereas the firing-pin impression can be excellent--one portion of the case will be excellent. but each one is a different examination. and many times they will mark in different places. mr. eisenberg. could you show us the next photograph? mr. cunningham. yes, sir. this is commission document no. . this is a photograph, photomicrograph, rather, of the breech face marks on two cartridge cases. the one on the left is c- , which is our number c- , and the one on the right of the hairline is a test cartridge case from this revolver. mr. eisenberg. what is the magnification? mr. cunningham. this one was approximately times. mr. eisenberg. is the magnification equal on both sides? mr. cunningham. it is. mr. eisenberg. is that true of all the pictures you are showing us today? mr. cunningham. yes, sir. the negative is taken at exactly the same time. you are photographing through a single eyepiece, with a focusable hairline down the middle, whatever is on both stages of your comparison microscope. mr. eisenberg. could you turn that picture around again? mr. cunningham. yes. mr. eisenberg. these marking are also on the brass, or outside of the primer? mr. cunningham. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. and again it is a sort of a composite photograph? mr. cunningham. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. now, these markings seem a little less distinct than the others. mr. cunningham. it is in a different area. on this particular case, the marks are excellent. you can see down in here some nice fine marks, and then the heavier marks coming across there. they are good marks. representative ford. could you point out, as you look at the photograph, what you consider good similarities, which would help you in the identification? mr. cunningham. yes, sir. now, this is not the only point of similarity. these strictly demonstrate the type of marks. there are many more marks on these cartridge cases, all over the base of the cartridge cases, as well as in the firing-pin impressions. but mr. eisenberg asked that we have a photograph to demonstrate the type of marks on each particular cartridge case. representative ford. this is only illustrative, then? mr. cunningham. that is correct. my identification was not based on this picture. it was based on my complete microscopic examination and comparison of test cartridge cases from the revolver with this particular cartridge case. representative ford. could you show me the similarities? mr. cunningham. yes. you see, you have your large--it is slightly out of focus up towards this end---- mr. eisenberg. excuse me, as you demonstrate this, could you mark with circles and with a number what you are talking about, so when the record is looked at it is clear what you are talking about? mr. cunningham. all right--up here, near the top, you will find a very deep ridge, which i will mark " ." as you are coming down, you will find another real deep ridge, which i will mark " ." when you consider this is times, this is actually quite close together, except it has been magnified--you have a set of marks resembling "railroad tracks," which i will mark " ." you will find over here--you go down to your next step. there are similarities in between there. the next big set of "railroad tracks" i will mark " ." then you move down, and you will find another similarity, four nice marks down near the bottom. this whole area is similar. you are going out of focus, but you can see these "railroad tracks." they are running along very nicely, and that is being marked "no. ." the next photograph is a photograph--on the left of the hairline---- mr. eisenberg. what commission exhibit is that? mr. cunningham. no. . on the left of the hairline is our number c- , the cartridge case. on the right is a test from the c- revolver, which is commission exhibit . these also are breech-face marks in the base of the cartridge cases. on the right you can see the space between the primer and the base of the cartridge case, and also the individual characteristic marks in the primer. mr. eisenberg. what is the magnification? mr. cunningham. this is approximately - / times. mr. eisenberg. congressman ford, would you care for a discussion of this? representative ford. no. the one previously gave the basis. mr. cunningham. actually, this seems to be a slightly larger area. you have again the same "railroad tracks," all up and down, going across the two cartridge cases. representative ford. to the layman that seems even more---- mr. cunningham. demonstrative, yes. i don't know if you saw the photographs of the cartridge cases in the rifle, the assassination rifle. those marks are just as distinctive as the more demonstrative marks in this particular breech face. but to a trained examiner, they stand out. they are harder to see than those on these particular photographs. and even in these photographs, the photograph you were asking me, they were not quite as vivid as they are on this photograph. but there, again, it goes back to what i told you--each cartridge case will strike the breech face in a slightly different way, and you don't get complete similarity. mr. eisenberg. to illustrate your point, mr. cunningham, i hand you commission exhibit , which is a photograph, which was explained yesterday, of the cartridge case fired in the rifle, and a test cartridge. mr. cunningham. yes, this demonstrates it very well. this is the very rough surface on the bolt of the assassination rifle. mr. eisenberg. the bolt face? mr. cunningham. yes; the bolt face, and it is just as distinctive as these striae on my photographs of the breech-face marks of the revolver. mr. eisenberg. by "striae" you mean lines? mr. cunningham. yes; just lines. but it is more difficult to see, due to the character of these marks--even though one type of mark is just as characteristic as the other type. mr. eisenberg. as i understand your testimony, to the trained observer the photograph shown--the cartridges shown in the photographs on can be as easily identified with each other as the cartridges shown on, let's say, ? mr. cunningham. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. but to the layman it is easier to see the similarities on , with its striae, than with its grosser imperfections? mr. cunningham. yes, sir; due to the type of marks on each of the cartridge cases, one is easier for the layman to see. the next photograph is commission document no. . on the left of the hairline is our number c- , the cartridge case. on the right is the test cartridge case from oswald's revolver. now, here you asked about what happens--somebody asked what happens on the other side. here you have the other side. in this particular cartridge case---- mr. eisenberg. that is the other half of the cartridge case? mr. cunningham. yes, sir. in other words, you are seeing the primer, the space between the primer and the brass on the cartridge case itself--on the questioned cartridge case this time--and the base of the cartridge case of the test is on the right. it looks like it is one. it is just the opposite side of the cartridge case from the other photographs. in other words, you take the photograph of the most demonstrative marks--which look real good, naturally. the examination is of all the marks. that is the big difference. and this time you will see--it is very demonstrative--on each side of the hairline, a great deal of similarity between these marks. mr. eisenberg. and the magnification here? mr. cunningham. it is approximately times. mr. rhyne. why do you vary the magnification? mr. cunningham. the magnification of every photograph you take, sir, depends on the length of the bellows of the camera. the microscope will have a set magnification. but each time that you focus the length of the bellows can change, which will increase or decrease the magnification. also with some photographs you mask off areas which are out of focus. you certainly would not want to print a whole negative where you have distortion. you bring into focus one small portion of the surface of that bullet. if, say, one surface of the bullet is slightly flattened and the other surface is rounded--the rounded surface will be going out of focus much faster than the flattened side, and it would be very confusing. that is the type of thing. you mask differently. then when you have the negatives enlarged, you can enlarge one negative more than you do the other. so it can be based either on the length of the bellows, or on the amount you have enlarged it. mr. eisenberg. is that all the photographs? mr. cunningham. no, there is one more. this photograph is a photograph of the firing-pin impression of the c- cartridge case, and the firing-pin impression on the test from oswald's revolver, and this is commission document . mr. eisenberg. and the magnification? mr. cunningham. times, approximately. now, here you have very distinctive marks, but it is much more difficult for a layman to pick them out. that is the reason i have circled these marks and numbered them, , , , , , , on each side of the hairline. on the left is c- , and on the right is the cartridge case obtained from c- . you have this very large, very distinctive imperfection. mr. eisenberg. you are pointing to circle number ? mr. cunningham. in number . also, in number , it looks like a little set of railroad tracks, and this one with the same shape coming down through. you can see this little piece and this little piece. over here you have a real small "railroad track." mr. eisenberg. that is number ? mr. cunningham. that is number . and it looks like a little hump or bump, and that is very distinctive. there is a slight overlapping here, but you can see it is sort of a =v= shape--in number , very distinctive. down here you have a =z= line with a line through it, number . i only brought those out to show six of the similarities. if you go through you can pick out places in the firing-pin impressions, that are similar, by yourself. mr. eisenberg. on the top of each of these photos, c- and c- , there is a large comma-shaped indentation, or comma-shaped mark. what is that caused by, mr. cunningham? mr. cunningham. that is caused by a very large imperfection--a very distinctive imperfection in the firing pin itself. and here it is. here i am looking at commission document , the breech face and firing pin. if you will look at the firing pin in this photograph, you will see over on this side, this very large imperfection. it is like a facet--it is a flattened side. it shows up in the photograph of the firing pin. it is indented--since it is missing from the firing pin, it will show as a flattened area in the firing-pin impression. in other words, what is concave on the firing pin itself, will be convex in the firing-pin impression. mr. eisenberg. if there are no further questions on the cartridge cases, i will move on to the bullets. representative ford. mr. boggs? representative boggs. just one question. what you are saying is that there is no doubt about the fact that the cartridges that you examined came from this revolver? mr. cunningham. that is correct. representative boggs. and, of course, there is no question about the fact that this was mr. oswald's revolver. is that so? mr. eisenberg. that will be proved, i hope, before the end of the hearings. this witness cannot himself testify. representative boggs. i understand that. i am asking you. mr. eisenberg. there is no question, i don't think, about that. that will be the subject of testimony. representative boggs. i know--we are not following the exact rules of evidence around here. mr. eisenberg. we will connect it up. representative boggs. in that connection--how many bullets were recovered? mr. eisenberg. four were recovered from the body of the officer. but as you will see from the testimony which we will get into right now, that doesn't mean four shots were fired, because there is a slight problem here. i would rather have the witness develop it. representative boggs. you are being very mysterious now, but it is all right. mr. eisenberg. mr. cunningham, i hand you four bullets in plastic cases marked c- , c- , q- , and c- , which have also certain other markings on them, and i ask you if you are familiar with these bullets. mr. cunningham. i am. mr. eisenberg. are your marks on these bullets? mr. cunningham. yes, they are. mr. eisenberg. for the record, i would like to state these four bullets were recovered from the body of officer tippit. when did you receive these bullets, mr. cunningham? mr. cunningham. the q- bullet was delivered to the laboratory the first time on the morning of november d, and it was delivered to the laboratory by special agent vincent drain of the dallas office of the fbi. mr. eisenberg. and the remaining bullets? mr. cunningham. by the way, it was returned to dallas, and then it was returned to the laboratory, delivered again by special agent vincent drain, of the dallas office, also, special agent warren de brueys. they delivered our q- a second time on november th. representative ford. when you say "our," what do you mean by "our"? mr. cunningham. in other words, to facilitate reporting in the laboratory, we usually give these items a q or a k number. a q number is a questioned item, like a bullet from a body, and a known is a gun, the k is a known, like a weapon. that is for reporting purposes. but since this case began, we have so much evidence, and we have received so much evidence, it was considered practical to reassign a c number by us--like mr. eisenberg said, they are c- , c- , and c- . they also have a q number. q- is c- . that is the reason why i said "our" q- . mr. eisenberg. when did you examine q- , mr. cunningham? mr. cunningham. november d, the first time. that was when i made my examination. it was returned on the other date. but it was examined on - . mr. eisenberg. now, q- has in it a brass colored object, as well as a bullet--that is, the box containing q- , your q- . mr. cunningham. yes. that was identified as the button--the button--from the coat of officer tippit. the bullet struck that button and when the bullet was removed from the body, the button was also removed. representative boggs. went right in? mr. cunningham. yes, sir. i have no first-hand knowledge. but that is what it was identified as. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, i would like these four bullets admitted as , , , and . representative ford. they will be admitted. (the articles referred to were marked commission exhibits nos. through , and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. when did you receive what are now marked , , and , mr. cunningham? mr. cunningham. they were received in the fbi laboratory on march th of this year, and they were submitted to the laboratory by the dallas office of the fbi. mr. eisenberg. when were they examined? mr. cunningham. they were examined on march , . mr. eisenberg. can you explain the great time difference between the receipt and examination of the first bullet and the receipt and examination of the last three bullets? mr. cunningham. at your request, you asked us to postpone the examination of these three bullets in order to facilitate other examinations you wished more expedited than the examinations of these bullets. mr. eisenberg. now you are explaining the time between the receipt and the examination? mr. cunningham. yes. mr. eisenberg. now, can you explain why these three bullets---- mr. cunningham. oh, between the first submission and the second? mr. eisenberg. yes; between the submission of the first bullet, and the submission to you of the second three bullets. mr. cunningham. well, it is my understanding the first bullet was turned over to the fbi office in dallas by the dallas police department. they reportedly said this was the only bullet that was recovered, or that they had. later at the request of this commission, we went back to the dallas police department and found in their files that they actually had three other bullets. mr. eisenberg. now, did you examine these four bullets to determine whether they had been fired in the revolver, exhibit no. , to the exclusion of all other weapons? mr. cunningham. i am sorry. mr. eisenberg. did you examine the four bullets which have just been marked into evidence to determine whether those four bullets had been fired in the revolver, no. ? mr. cunningham. i did. mr. eisenberg. and can you give us your results, your conclusions? mr. cunningham. yes, sir. first of all, commission exhibit , which is our q- bullet, i found to be a . special, copper-coated lead bullet of western-winchester manufacture which had been fired from a barrel having five lands and grooves, right twist. i also found the other three bullets---- mr. eisenberg. ---- mr. cunningham. , , and , commission exhibits, which are c- , c- , and c- , respectively. i found that and c- ---- mr. eisenberg. could you give us the commission numbers? mr. cunningham. commission exhibits , , they, too, were . special copper-coated lead bullets of winchester-western manufacture, which had been fired from a barrel having five lands and grooves, right twist. the grooves in the barrel ran in a right-hand direction, a right twist. mr. eisenberg. that accounts for three bullets. mr. cunningham. yes. and commission exhibit , which is c- , is a . special remington-peters lead bullet, which has been fired from a barrel having five lands and grooves, right twist. mr. eisenberg. winchester-western, you say? mr. cunningham. no, sir; that is remington---- mr. eisenberg. let's go over that. we have ---- mr. cunningham. , , and are your copper-coated lead bullets of winchester-western manufacture. mr. eisenberg. and ? mr. cunningham. and is a remington-peters lead bullet. mr. eisenberg. now, were you able to determine whether those bullets have been fired in this weapon? mr. cunningham. no; i was not. mr. eisenberg. can you explain why? mr. cunningham. yes, sir. first of all, commission exhibit no. was too mutilated. there were not sufficient microscopic marks remaining on the surface of this bullet, due to the mutilation, to determine whether or not it had been fired from this weapon. however, commission exhibits , , and do bear microscopic marks for comparison purposes, but it was not possible from an examination and comparison of these bullets to determine whether or not they had been fired--these bullets themselves--had been fired from one weapon, or whether or not they had been fired from oswald's revolver. further, it was not possible, using . special ammunition, to determine whether or not consecutive test bullets obtained from this revolver had been fired in this weapon. mr. eisenberg. do you have an opinion as to why it was impossible to make either type of determination? mr. cunningham. yes, sir; this weapon, using . special bullets, was not producing marks consistent with each other. each time it was fired, the bullet would seem to pass down the barrel in a different way, which could be due to the slightly undersized bullets in the oversized . s&w barrel. it would cause an erratic passage down the barrel, and thereby, cause inconsistent individual characteristic marks to be impressed or scratched into the surface of the bullets. representative ford. when you say this weapon, will you identify what you mean by "this weapon"? mr. cunningham. this particular revolver, commission exhibit . mr. eisenberg. so this brings us back to your earlier testimony, that the gun had been rechambered for a . special, which is slightly smaller in one respect than the . s&w, but it had not been rebarreled for the . special? mr. cunningham. that is correct. the original . smith and wesson barrel is still on the weapon. mr. eisenberg. so that the . special, when fired in that gun, might wobble slightly as it passes through the barrel? mr. cunningham. i don't know if wobble is the correct word. but as the bullet is passing down this shortened . barrel, we are probably getting an erratic passage, so the marks won't reproduce. mr. eisenberg. is it possible to say that the bullets were not fired from this weapon, no. ? mr. cunningham. no, it is not; since the rifling characteristics of commission exhibit --this revolver--are the same as those present on the four bullets. mr. eisenberg. now, you said that there were three bullets of winchester-western manufacture, those are , , and , and one bullet of r.-p. manufacture. mr. cunningham. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. however, as to the cartridge cases, exhibit , you told us there were two r.-p. cartridge cases and two western cartridge cases. mr. cunningham. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. so that the recovered cartridge cases, there is one more recovered r.-p. cartridge case than there was recovered bullet? mr. cunningham. yes. mr. eisenberg. and as to the bullets, there is one more recovered winchester-western bullet than there is winchester-western cartridges? mr. cunningham. that is correct. representative boggs. how would you account for that? mr. cunningham. the possibility exists that one bullet is missing. also, they may not have found one of the cartridge cases. representative boggs. are you able to match the bullet with the cartridge case? mr. cunningham. it is not possible. representative boggs. so that while you can establish the fact that the cartridge case, the four that we have, were fired in that gun---- mr. cunningham. yes, sir. representative boggs. you cannot establish the fact that the bullets were fired in that gun? mr. cunningham. that is correct. representative boggs. and you cannot--having the cartridge case and the bullet--you cannot match them up? mr. cunningham. no, you cannot. representative boggs. there is no way to do it? mr. cunningham. no; other than what i have said. in other words, you can tell manufacture. but there is no way of--that i know of--of connecting or identifying a particular bullet having been loaded into a particular cartridge case. representative boggs. but there is no doubt about the fact that the four cartridge cases came from firing in that weapon? mr. cunningham. they were fired in that weapon to the exclusion of all other weapons. mr. eisenberg. now, when you said before that you would be missing a bullet--under the explanation you gave--would you be missing both a bullet and a cartridge case? representative boggs. excuse me, before you answer that question. what testimony have we developed with reference to this delay in the transmission of these bullets to either the fbi or to the commission? mr. eisenberg. just what you have heard. would you like to have it developed further? representative boggs. well, is this within his competence? mr. eisenberg. i do not think so. i can state for the record myself that about weeks ago i requested--i made a request of mr. conrad, who is the assistant director in charge of the fbi laboratory--that the three tippit bullets which had not theretofore been examined, be examined. at that point they had not yet been sent from the dallas police to the fbi, and no request had apparently been made for them. representative boggs. well, the fbi obtained one almost immediately. mr. eisenberg. yes. representative boggs. and then there was how long a delay before the other three? mr. eisenberg. you have the dates there, mr. cunningham? mr. cunningham. the date was--we obtained the first one on november , , and then---- representative boggs. the day after the killing of officer tippit? mr. cunningham. yes; it was delivered at the same time as all the other material. and then it was returned november , . as far as the fbi is concerned, sir, we have no jurisdiction in that case. we were doing the lab work for the dallas police department, but in the investigation of the death of officer tippit we do not have jurisdiction. representative boggs. how did the commission ascertain that these additional bullets were there? mr. eisenberg. well, upon review of the underlying materials, it developed that while one bullet had been taken out of officer tippit as soon as he got to the hospital, which was apparently the first bullet, the one examined november , three further bullets were taken out at the autopsy. and since we knew that only one bullet had been examined by the fbi, and since we knew at that point that three further bullets had been taken out, we asked that those three further bullets be examined. representative boggs. what proof do you have though that these are the bullets? mr. eisenberg. well, again, we will have to connect it up at a subsequent time. they were turned over to the fbi dallas office, were they, mr. cunningham? mr. cunningham. that is correct. representative boggs. i am talking about the three bullets now, not the first bullet. mr. eisenberg. yes; turned over to the fbi dallas office by the dallas police. now, we will have to connect up by deposition or testimony before the commission on the origin of those bullets, and proof is not in the record now, as it is not in the case of many of these items, as to origin. however, i have no doubt that we will be able to connect it up and put it all in the record. representative boggs. has there been any inquiry made as to why there was this delay in removing the other three bullets to the fbi? mr. eisenberg. well, as mr. cunningham stated, i was told since this was not within the jurisdiction of the fbi, they would only examine evidence which was given to them. and since it had not been given to them, they had not examined it. when i asked for it, there was a formal request made for them, and they made their examination at that point. is that your understanding, mr. cunningham? mr. cunningham. that is correct, sir. in other words, we will do laboratory examinations for any duly constituted law-enforcement agency upon request. and we did it in this case. we offer our facilities but do not go out and ask for work. since we have no jurisdiction in the killing of officer tippit, we would make no investigation and therefore, we would have no reason to go and ask for additional bullets, until of course this commission asked us to, and then we did on behalf of the commission. representative boggs. do you have any theory, and this is just a theory, you understand, as to this discrepancy in these results as compared to the cartridge cases? mr. cunningham. inasmuch as there are three western bullets, you would be missing one western cartridge case, and one remington bullet. you are missing one of each. he could have missed one of the shots. i do not know how many times he actually fired the weapon. but he could have missed once. it is very possible that he could have. and depending on the angle, it would be very difficult to find that bullet unless it struck some close intervening object. also i have no first-hand information, again, but i believe that some neighbor turned in these cartridge cases to the dallas police department. mr. eisenberg. i believe that is correct. mr. cunningham. you have received a letter from the dallas office of the fbi just recently, i believe, setting forth that information. representative boggs. that would account for one. there would still be another one, would there not? mr. cunningham. there would be just one cartridge case missing. mr. eisenberg. is there any other logical theory which could explain the results? mr. cunningham. of course, he could have had an empty cartridge case remaining in the weapon at the time he fired it. then he would only have fired four shots, and then a bullet is still unaccounted for. that would explain it also. mr. eisenberg. in other words, if he had an unejected r-p cartridge case? mr. cunningham. no--a western. mr. eisenberg. you mean an unejected western cartridge case? mr. cunningham. yes. mr. eisenberg. and he fired two winchester and two r-p bullets--now in that case--and, if he then ejected he would get three winchester and two r-p bullets, would he not--that is, cartridge case--if he had an extra cartridge case? mr. cunningham. if he had an extra cartridge case---- mr. eisenberg. he would get five cartridge cases? mr. cunningham. in other words, if he had an extra cartridge case, say a remington---- mr. eisenberg. i was right the first time. suppose he has an extra remington? mr. cunningham. well, then you would have lost a western. if he fires four times? mr. eisenberg. yes? mr. cunningham. and he has the fifth one in. you would still have to have three western cartridges loaded in and one remington cartridge. mr. eisenberg. but then---- mr. cunningham. which is four. mr. eisenberg. but then you only have to lose one cartridge case. you do not have to lose a bullet and a cartridge case. mr. cunningham. that is right. you do have to lose one case. mr. eisenberg. and the case you lose would be a western case? mr. cunningham. that is correct. western. representative ford. is it unusual to have a mixture of this kind in a pistol? mr. cunningham. yes, sir. usually they are all the same brand. although if you have two boxes--. special cartridges come in boxes of . and you will see hand-loaders once in a while. by the way, we found no indication that they had been hand loaded. representative boggs. is this a police weapon as well? mr. cunningham. yes; and a very good one. not in that particular caliber. in other words, the caliber---- representative boggs. that is what i meant. mr. cunningham. . s&w is not a popular cartridge in this country. the . special is. representative boggs. . special is? mr. cunningham. yes, sir. that cartridge. representative boggs. with police forces? mr. cunningham. we use it. most of your larger police forces use the . special. it is a better cartridge. mr. eisenberg. getting back to the example we were using before as a second possible theory--the cartridge case that would be lost would be a western case, i believe actually? mr. cunningham. yes, it would be a western case. mr. eisenberg. now, also getting back to a subject we were discussing, i will quote in part from a letter from mr. hoover to mr. rankin dated march , . "on march , , mr. eisenberg requested that the dallas police department be contacted to determine whether any additional cartridge cases had been recovered." and i say parenthetically i mean in addition to the four which we have seen here. "on march , , lieutenant carl day, dallas police department, advised the dallas office of this bureau that all of the cartridge cases and bullets recovered had been previously submitted to the fbi." you mentioned or discussed the question of hand loading. can you describe what you mean by hand loading? mr. cunningham. hand loading is nothing more than taking components and by means of a press you make your own cartridges. you put them together. mr. eisenberg. in this process, would you be able to take a bullet of one manufacturer and a cartridge case of another? mr. cunningham. yes. mr. eisenberg. you said that you found no evidence that that had been done in this case? mr. cunningham. we found no sizing marks on the cartridge cases, which after the first time it has been fired, you many times have to resize it, due to the fact that one chamber can be too large. they always full-length resize, for in a police department many officers will be using this ammunition. you might not resize if one were only firing them in one gun. in other words, you are limiting the chambers of your cylinder that they will fit into. but normally they are full-length resized, and from this you get these sizing marks. actually they are scrape marks from the sizing die. mr. eisenberg. in a hand-loading operation, is the equipment needed bulky or small? mr. cunningham. it is quite bulky. mr. eisenberg. if oswald had hand-loading equipment, would it have been likely to have been turned up among his personal effects? could it be easily missed? mr. cunningham. you could not miss it; no, sir. representative ford. when you say bulky---- mr. cunningham. a "c" press or an "o" press will stand anywhere from to inches high with a -foot handle. your turret-type would run almost a foot and a half high above the table. and they are all made very heavy because of your full-length resizing--not only on your small revolver cartridges, but for all your hunting cartridges--that takes great pressure. they are heavy duty. and you need quite a bit of equipment. most of the time there will be a case trimmer, your complete press--there is a primer press, and then you have to have dies for the cartridge you are loading--your sizing dies and your bullet dies that you use to press the bullet into the cartridge case. then there are all sorts of sundry equipment that go along with hand loading--your powder measurer, which is usually quite large if it is one that will do it volumetrically. true, you can have a balance and weigh out a particular amount for each one, but it takes an awful lot of time. normally they are volumetric powder measures. you tip it and it puts a certain amount of powder into the cartridge case. representative ford. is it expensive equipment to buy? mr. cunningham. originally, yes. comparatively so. a good press, i think you can buy one anywhere from $ to over $ . you will have to invest, i would say, $ to have a fairly good outfit. but over the years it is a cheap investment. instead of paying $ . a box, or $ . a box, you are turning out cartridges, once you have your brass, for--even rifle, hunting cartridges--for about cents, and lead bullet cartridges down to around cents apiece. representative ford. $ . a box? mr. cunningham. i have the component list here from western. i do not have the cost per box of ammunition, but it can run anywhere from $ . all the way up to $ to $ for some of your larger hunting rifle cartridges--boxes of in hunting ammunition, boxes of in your revolver and pistol ammunition. even buying components, it is comparatively cheap. if you buy them by the hundred, and they will run, for instance the . special, grain lead bullets per hundred, only $ . , and that is for original components. if you have the brass, your powder cost is negligible--probably a penny a cartridge, half a cent a cartridge for a . special. so it saves you so much money if you are a target shooter, for instance, it is advantageous to do it if you like to shoot. mr. eisenberg. is that a skilled operation, hand loading? mr. cunningham. basically, no. once you have the basic--if you do any reading on it, and you take your time, and are very careful, it is not a difficult operation at all. mr. eisenberg. now, would a---- representative boggs. how are these cartridges loaded mechanically--not like this hand loading. mr. cunningham. it is all done on large machines. they buy their lead, for instance, in rods. they ask for a lead alloy of a certain hardness. then these machines--they feed in the rods in the bullet-making machines, and they cut them off to length. they have different diameter rods. for a . the rod diameter would be approximately . " or . ". then this machine comes down in a swaging operation. another machine puts the knurling around--forming the lubricating grooves, and another groove. they tumble out as fast as the machine can run. then you have your case formation. they buy their cases--they look like little cups of copper. actually it is a copper alloy. and then you go through a drawing process, and then an annealing, and a drawing and annealing, and a drawing and annealing of these brass cases. and then once you get them to approximate length, you full-size them and form the cases. the machine keeps tumbling them out. and a small lathe--as these cases are going around--turns the case and puts in the extraction groove--all automatically. another machine comes up from the bottom and puts the head stamp in. another one is a drilling operation, and it puts in the holes for the primer and also the flash holes into the case. all done automatically. and they tumble into a big box. then they take those components and they put them on the line. the primers are all done by hand, except for shotgun primers at western. there are girls sitting at these presses who do or at a time. they put guide plates into the machine in which the girls put the primers. they are automatically loaded. all the primers are put in by hand, in essence. mr. eisenberg. mr. cunningham, what is the advantage of hand loading in terms of cost, if you do not have your own shells to start with? mr. cunningham. there again your initial cost is fairly expensive. for instance, for the . special, unprimed cases, the list price per hundred last year, was $ . a hundred. the primed cost $ . the primers cost cents---- mr. eisenberg. so there is a saving even if you do not provide your own shells? mr. cunningham. oh, yes--and the bullets would cost---- mr. eisenberg. how many primers? mr. cunningham. one hundred. and grain lead, . special bullets are $ . . so $ . plus $ . worth of powder and you are in business. mr. eisenberg. for $ . ? mr. cunningham. yes. mr. eisenberg. and how much would the bullets cost you if you bought them commercially already prepared? mr. cunningham. i think it is $ . per . mr. eisenberg. well, that is more. $ . per , did you say? mr. cunningham. $ . ? i never buy any ammunition of that type. i do not know. mr. eisenberg. so for a hundred that would be $ . . mr. cunningham. i would say it is closer to $ per hundred for . special. mr. eisenberg. so it is cheaper to buy them that way than to buy the components? mr. cunningham. it is cheaper to buy your components when you do not have to buy the cartridge cases. mr. eisenberg. well, now, is it possible that a gunsmith would buy the components, including new cases, and reload together a case from western-winchester and a bullet from remington-peters? mr. cunningham. i don't think that a gunsmith would buy the new cases. that is what i was saying. for instance, used . -. brass, right here in town--you can buy it locally. you can buy national match cases, which are excellent brass. i think they are a nickel a piece; $ a hundred. mr. eisenberg. are they as good as the new cases? mr. cunningham. they are once-fired cases. they are excellent. mr. eisenberg. so in you opinion does the possibility that this discrepancy in bullets and cartridge cases can be explained in terms of reloading make much sense? does it have a high degree of probability or a low degree of probability, would you think? mr. cunningham. i am sorry. mr. eisenberg. would you think it probable or improbable, in light of all your testimony, that the discrepancy between the number of recovered bullets and the number of recovered cartridge cases can be explained in terms of a reloading operation of some kind, or hand loading? mr. cunningham. no, sir; i do not. it is improbable, because we found no indication of any reloading operation. and in an examination of all the cartridges that we had examined, there was no indication of a reloading operation on those. they looked like factory bullets and factory cases. mr. eisenberg. and if you were going to reload, you would use used cartridges rather than new ones? mr. cunningham. you would use used brass, because you usually can pick it up at ranges and places like that. you would not even have to buy it. representative boggs. by that you mean you would use these? (referring to commission exhibit no. .) mr. cunningham. yes, sir; well--these would be very difficult--in other mr. cunningham. yes, sir; well--these would be very difficult on account of the case. they would be hard to resize on account of the fact the case is pushed out due to the rechambering. but they could be used; yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. when you say there is no indication, would there be an indication if they were resized? mr. cunningham. yes; usually--unless the sizing die was extremely clean--usually you will get your resizing marks from the resizing die. mr. eisenberg. and in particular you say the cartridge cases from this particular weapon show a substantial amount of bulge? mr. cunningham. they do. as you brought to my attention, there is a crack in the one case. i would not care to use this type of brass if i were hand loading. i would find brass that had been fired in a . special. mr. eisenberg. now, by the way, the various cartridge cases, the four cartridge cases and four bullets that you have identified, and that you obtained from your dallas office and other sources, that is, exhibits and , , , and , are these now in the same condition as they were when you originally got them? mr. cunningham. substantially. a small sample was taken off the noise which was run spectrographically. but the major portions of all these bullets are the same as when they were received in the laboratory. mr. eisenberg. did you clean them in any way or alter them? mr. cunningham. yes; we had to clean them. they were removed from the body and were bloody. you could not see the surfaces. we had to put them in haemo-sol, which is nothing more than a material that will take out the blood. mr. eisenberg. is that true of all four bullets? that is true of the last three bullets as well as the original bullet? mr. cunningham. q- was cleaned of blood tissue in haemo-sol. i do not think i have anything in the notes that the last three were cleaned at all. mr. eisenberg. would that indicate they were not cleaned? mr. cunningham. i would say so, because i would have put it down. mr. eisenberg. was the substance removed from the first bullet tested to see whether it was blood, or did you just assume it was blood? mr. cunningham. no examination was made of it. mr. eisenberg. was there any dirt on the cartridge case? mr. cunningham. i don't remember any. mr. eisenberg. would your notes show if you had cleaned it up? mr. cunningham. yes. mr. eisenberg. and they do not show any cleaning up? mr. cunningham. no. mr. eisenberg. you said these revolver bullets were sold in boxes of how many? mr. cunningham. fifty. mr. eisenberg. will a storekeeper, a gun man who sells bullets, sell less than usually, in your experience? mr. cunningham. maybe some small outfit would. but i just don't know of any around here that will. mr. eisenberg. now, oswald was found with two types of ammunition, two makes of . special cartridges. would you infer than that---- representative boggs. what two types? mr. eisenberg. r.-p., or remington-peters, and western-winchester. mr. cunningham. they were westerns. mr. eisenberg. would you infer on the basis of your previous statement that he had probably bought a larger quantity? mr. cunningham. the inference would be that he had at least two boxes. mr. eisenberg. at some point? mr. cunningham. yes; either that or he had obtained them from another individual. mr. eisenberg. how about the rifle ammunition, this . mannlicher-carcano rifle ammunition--how is that commonly sold--the western brand? mr. cunningham. that would depend on the surplus house, how it is sold. mr. eisenberg. you think that might be sold in less than fixed minimum quantities? mr. cunningham. many times that type of ammunition, surplus ammunition, is sold in any amount. they will give a single price, single cartridge price--or they will take off some if you buy them by the thousand or the hundred. that is a lot different than commercially made ammunition for sale in this country. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, i would like to examine this witness now on the paraffin test, if there are no further questions on the areas we have been covering up to now. representative ford. any questions, mr. boggs? representative boggs. i don't think so. representative ford. mr. rhyne? mr. rhyne. yes; you said that you were positive that these cartridge cases that were found near where officer tippit was killed, and which are over in front of representative boggs now, were fired in this gun. mr. cunningham. as i stated the first time, in my opinion those cartridge cases were fired in that particular weapon to the exclusion of all other weapons. mr. rhyne. and with respect to the bullets that were found in the body of officer tippit, you testified that you could not be positive that they were fired by this weapon, exhibit . mr. cunningham. i could not identify those bullets as having been fired from that gun. however, the rifling characteristics on the bullets are the same as produced by that weapon. also, i could not identify consecutive tests obtained from that revolver, using . special ammunition, and i could not identify, even though there are microscopic marks on three of these bullets for comparison purposes--i could not identify them with each other. mr. rhyne. now, based on your many, many years of experience, is this usual or unusual, that you are unable to identify bullets from such a gun under these circumstances? mr. cunningham. it is not unusual in this particular case. i have had other cases with these rechambered . s&w revolvers, that are rechambered to a . special; it is not unusual to not be able to identify them. and especially when the barrel has been cut off - / inches, it even cuts down the possibility a little bit more. mr. rhyne. i was under the impression that you people down at the fbi could identify almost any bullet as coming from almost any gun. that is not strictly true, then? mr. cunningham. thank you, but it is not. representative boggs. how much has this barrel been cut off? mr. cunningham. about - / inches. you measure the length of the barrel from--you see the cylinder---- representative boggs. yes. mr. cunningham. and the portion coming out from the frame, that is a portion of the barrel. and the barrel is measured from there to the muzzle. and the barrel now is - / inches long. the original barrel was inches long--or at least it is similar to the model that would have a -inch barrel. representative boggs. what is the advantage of reducing the length of the barrel? mr. cunningham. two things--sales appeal and concealment. representative boggs. does it affect the firing quality of the weapon? mr. cunningham. it affects your accuracy inasmuch as it cuts down on your sight radius. your longer barrel will be more accurate than a shorter barrel, due to the longer sight radius. the reason that rifles are inherently more accurate than a hand weapon is due, in part, to the longer sight radius. that is the reason the farther you can get away from the sight when you are firing a revolver, the more accurate. lengthening your sight radius will increase the accuracy. mr. rhyne. based on your experience in your study of these bullets, do you have an opinion as to whether or not they were fired by this gun? mr. cunningham. no, sir; i cannot determine that. mr. rhyne. you have no opinion at all? mr. cunningham. the only thing i can testify to, is they could have, on the basis of the rifling characteristics--they could have been. however, no conclusion could be reached from an actual comparison of these bullets with test bullets obtained from that gun. mr. rhyne. even though there are a lot of similar markings. mr. cunningham. there are not; no, sir. there are not a lot of similar markings. they are similar. the rifling characteristics, are the same, or similar. but, in the individual characteristic marks, there are not a lot of similarities. there are not sufficient similarities to effect an identification. representative boggs. stating mr. rhyne's question negatively, these bullets could have been fired by another weapon? mr. cunningham. that is correct. either this weapon or another weapon which has the same rifling characteristics. representative ford. you are limiting that to the bullets now? mr. cunningham. the bullets. mr. rhyne. yes; my question related just to the bullets. mr. cunningham. i identified the cartridge cases. mr. rhyne. he was positive about the cartridge cases, but not about the bullets. representative boggs. now, would it be likely to find these cartridge cases, which you can positively identify as having been fired from this weapon--would it be likely that these bullets which you cannot identify as having been fired from this weapon--would it be likely that they would be fired from another weapon under those circumstances? mr. cunningham. well, that, sir, depends on other extraneous facts other than my comparisons and examinations. in other words, i can only testify to what i actually found from an examination and comparison of those bullets with these test bullets from that gun. and as to anything else, i cannot testify. i mean--that would be based upon other facts. mr. eisenberg. carrying some of these questions a little bit further, mr. cunningham, you say that this bullet could have been fired from this gun, and was fired from a gun with these rifling characteristics? mr. cunningham. yes. mr. eisenberg. which you said were five lands, five grooves, right twist? mr. cunningham. yes. mr. eisenberg. what about the widths of the lands and grooves? did you measure those? mr. cunningham. yes; they were also the same. in other words, when i say it has similar rifling characteristics--the widths of the lands and the grooves is taken into account the rifling characteristics. it has the same width and number of lands and grooves and a right twist. mr. eisenberg. now, how many other--well, before i ask that, you have also established that the bullets were . specials? mr. cunningham. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. and the manufacturer of each bullet? mr. cunningham. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. would you say they had been fired therefore from a gun chambered for a . special? mr. cunningham. yes; there was no indication that they were fired in a weapon other than . caliber. mr. eisenberg. so that the weapon was a . special weapon with five lands, five grooves, right twist, and with the same dimensions for each land and each groove. mr. cunningham. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. now, would the entire production run of this model conform to that description? mr. cunningham. yes. and also there are other models. mr. eisenberg. other models also produced by smith and wesson? mr. cunningham. yes; in . special. mr. eisenberg. could you estimate the number of those guns? mr. cunningham. may i have the nra reprint? my estimate comes from the figures that are set forth in commission exhibit , which states that by there were a million "military and police" revolvers, which is the prior model to the victory model, which they produced. representative boggs. that is this model? mr. cunningham. no, sir. but the model has similar rifling characteristics. you could not distinguish between them. in other words, one is a commercially made gun--this is strictly a wartime gun. also production of the "s" series continued until , when the "c" series was started, including over one million "m&p" models, including the victory model, which was this model, were manufactured between through march of ; and since that date, smith and wesson has produced over , "m&p" revolvers in the "c" series, which, when you add them up--there are over two and a half million. mr. eisenberg. two and a half million? mr. cunningham. over - / million. mr. eisenberg. now, apart from specially handmade or equivalent weapons, how many other types of weapons have you encountered which have these rifling characteristics? mr. cunningham. other than possibly a spanish-made copy of the smith--the smith is the only one in . special now that will have similar rifling characteristics. mr. eisenberg. now, when you say spanish-made, you are referring to the basement type of operation? mr. cunningham. yes. mr. eisenberg. now, this weapon did not produce, and does not produce--that is, the weapon --does not produce identical microscopic characteristics from bullet to bullet, you have testified. and you have told us that the reason might be that the weapon was rechambered but not rebarrelled, so that the . special is slightly undersized for the barrel? mr. cunningham. it has not been rebarrelled. mr. eisenberg. that's right. so when you fire a . special, it is slightly undersized, and this might affect the barrel characteristics? wasn't that your testimony? that the . special is slightly undersized? mr. cunningham. yes; approximately four-thousandths of an inch. mr. eisenberg. now, could you therefore limit the number of possible weapons from which the bullets might have been fired, not only to the - / million s&w's which you discussed, plus the possibility of spanish homemade weapons, but also to those weapons, that subcategory of weapons within those - / million, which does not produce microscopic characteristics such that you can identify bullets fired from them? mr. cunningham. no, sir; you cannot, due to the fact that there was also the possibility that the inability to identify consecutive tests from that weapon could be caused from an accumulation of lead or from barrel wear--the barrel was actually physically changing. mr. eisenberg. that is not quite what i meant. out of every ten s&w . specials, on the basis of your experience, how many do you think would produce rifling characteristics such that you could identify bullets fired from them? mr. cunningham. well, you could tell if the rifling characteristics are similar. but as far as the individual characteristic marks, that would be on an individual basis. much depends on the imperfections in the barrel. now, if you have some real deep imperfections in a barrel, it would be possible to pick them up each time. even though you would have a lot of dissimilarities, the similarities would be so distinctive that there is always a possibility you could identify them. but not this weapon. mr. eisenberg. mr. rhyne asked before whether it was usual or unusual to get this type of weapon not producing microscopic characteristics such that you could identify the bullet to the gun. you said it was not unusual. mr. cunningham. it is not unusual. mr. eisenberg. now, i say out of every such weapons, how many would you expect to be in this condition--that is, in a condition such that you cannot make an identification? mr. cunningham. i would have no way of knowing that. mr. eisenberg. on the basis of your experience, the experience that led you to say it is not unusual to have this condition? mr. cunningham. i can only say that you find them, that you cannot identify them, so it is not unusual. but as to numbers, i could not say. when you go back and you take all the hundreds and hundreds of examinations i have made, it is not unusual. but i also will not say that it is usual. i will go to the negative, i will say it is not unusual. mr. eisenberg. would you agree that out of the - / million possible weapons it could only have been fired from a gun which will not produce microscopic characteristics such that you can identify the bullet to the weapon? mr. cunningham. there is a good indication of that; yes. however, there is mutilation on all four of the bullets. but the three we are talking about, the ones that had marks for comparison purposes, now, even though the possibility is remote, it is still possible that there is mutilation in different areas of each bullet, so you would not be able to identify them. even if the bullets--even if they had not been mutilated, you maybe still could not identify them. in other words, your mutilation on different parts of each bullet would preclude the possibility of identifying them with each other. so i cannot answer your question positively. mr. eisenberg. well, mr. chairman, i have one subject remaining with this witness. mr. cunningham, are you familiar with the paraffin test? mr. cunningham. i am. mr. eisenberg. have you administered this test? mr. cunningham. i have. mr. eisenberg. can you give us the approximate number of times you have administered it? mr. cunningham. i don't know the exact number, but i must have performed this test at least times, and probably more. mr. eisenberg. now, i will state for the record--i know you do not know of this of your own knowledge, mr. cunningham--but a paraffin test was performed on lee harvey oswald by the dallas police. three paraffin casts were made, one of the right cheek, one of the right hand, and one of the left hand. there was no reaction on the paraffin test of the right cheek. there was a reaction on the paraffin test of each of the right and left hands. i will now hand you a sketch which was made by a participant in those tests, which shows the distribution of the blue or violet dots which constitute a positive reaction to this test on the left and right hands of lee harvey oswald. representative boggs. before you do that, mr. cunningham, will you describe briefly the procedure on a paraffin test? i want to understand exactly what it is. mr. cunningham. the so-called paraffin test is the making of reinforced paraffin casts, of a person's hands, and then treating either with either one of two reagents. one is diphenylamine, and the other is diphenylbenzidine. representative boggs. is that when the cast is on? mr. cunningham. that is definitely after it is removed. representative ford. you actually make a cast of the individual's hand? mr. cunningham. oh, yes. representative boggs. you make the casts. then you take the casts off. mr. cunningham. you slit it. mr. eisenberg. can you describe how the cast is made? mr. cunningham. yes. you first take warm paraffin. each paraffin melts at a slightly different temperature. what we were using in our tests melts at about °. and this hot paraffin is placed on the hands. it is spread on with a brush, or it can be poured over. if you are sure that your brush is absolutely clean and will not react--and we checked all of our equipment so that we were not getting a reaction from the diphenylbenzidine--we let it pour on from the brush. once you get a coating, you can just brush it on, because then you won't be disturbing any materials on the hands. and after you get a coat on, you take gauze bandages and lay them on top and put more paraffin on them. the gauze does nothing more than to give it reinforcement so it won't fall apart or crumble when it gets real cool. then you cut them off the hands after they cool. then they are chemically processed with either diphenylamine or diphenylbenzidine. representative boggs. the cast? mr. cunningham. yes; the portion of the cast next to the hand. representative boggs. right. i understand now. mr. eisenberg. can you explain why paraffin is used? what is the action of the paraffin? mr. cunningham. well, the warm paraffin has the effect of opening up the pores of the skin and many times material that you cannot get off from washing will be picked up in the sticky paraffin. as it is cooling, the dirt and the foreign material on the hands will become embedded in the paraffin. mr. eisenberg. so the paraffin acts as a base to pick up---- mr. cunningham. it acts as a medium in which the foreign material is picked up from the hands. mr. eisenberg. when you add the reagent, what is considered to be a positive reaction? mr. cunningham. it turns a blue color. mr. eisenberg. that is the cast? when you say "it," it is the cast? mr. cunningham. well, specks on the cast. mr. eisenberg. dots? mr. cunningham. yes, or an area of the cast. the theory of the test is that it is a test for gunpowder residues. now, that is the theory, and it is fallacious, inasmuch as the reagents used in these two tests are not specific for gunpowder residues. now, it is true that the nitrates and nitrites in gunpowder residues will react positively with diphenylamine and diphenylbenzidine, but they are not specific. they will react--these two reagents will react with most oxidizing agents. mr. eisenberg. can you give us a few examples? mr. cunningham. yes. urine, tobacco, cosmetics, pharmaceuticals, soil, fertilizer--i have a list here of the different families or classes of compounds that will react. in addition to nitrates and nitrites, substances such as dichromates, permanganates, hypochlorites, periodates, some oxides, such as selenium dioxide and so forth. also, ferric chloride and chromates and chlorates. the list of oxidizing agents is so large--that will react--that you cannot specifically say it was a gunpowder residue. mr. cunningham. supposedly it is to determine whether or not a person has fired a weapon. in actuality, in chemistry it is a good indication that an oxidizing agent is present. the reagents have a valid use in a chemistry laboratory. representative boggs. let me put the question this way. given a dozen ordinary people in the ordinary walk of life, what would be the chance of a positive reaction on any one of these people? mr. cunningham. excellent, sir. mr. eisenberg. has the fbi performed an experiment to determine this? mr. cunningham. yes; we have. the early sets of tests we ran with diphenylamine. and men were involved in this test. each man fired five shots from a . caliber revolver. both the firing hand and the hand that was not involved in the firing were treated with paraffin casts, and then those casts treated with diphenylamine. a total of eight men showed negative or essentially negative results on both hands. a total of three men showed positive results on the idle hand, but negative on the firing hand. two men showed positive results on their firing hand and negative results on their idle hands. and four men showed positive on both hands, after having fired only with their right hands. that was the first test we ran. the second test--we used people who had not washed their hands in any way. they were going about their duties during the day. their hands were soiled. nine people fired weapons out of -- people just had the casts made. the first person fired a revolver. both right hand and left hand were positive. the second person fired a revolver. both hands positive. a person fired an automatic pistol, where you would not expect to find residue. both hands positive. shooting with the right hand only, again one with a revolver and three people firing automatics, all positive. shooting with the left hand only, one person with a revolver, one with an automatic, both hands positive. now, of the people that had not come in contact with a gun--they definitely had just gone about their business--every one of them showed positive tests on either or both hands. a heavy smoker, for instance, would come up positive in the area of the hand where you expect to find residues from firing a gun. representative ford. that is the hand that you use for smoking? mr. cunningham. that's correct. and i noticed you with your pipe. you are also sure to react because you touch the tobacco in your pipe. you do it unconsciously. during another test we performed recently i did not know that the diphenylbenzidine was on the corner of the cast i was trying to pick up to wash off. i just touched it, and both my fingers which had touched my cigar turned a blue color. that is how sensitive it is. now, of these people--true there were some that had one hand that did not get a reaction, but they all got a reaction, one hand or another, or both. now, recently in connection with the assassination we made casts--the three of us, special agents frazier, killion, and myself, for neutron-activation. however, two of the casts we treated with diphenylbenzidine. we obtained a cast of the left hand after firing this particular revolver four times and reloading. we obtained a cast of the right hand after firing that revolver four times, and reloading. we treated both casts, fronts and backs with diphenylbenzidine. this particular one was run on me. i washed my hands thoroughly with green soap--and the green soap, by the way, did not react because we checked it--the gauze used and the paraffin were all checked, to see if they would react, and they did not. we found numerous, numerous reactions on the casts of both hand. and i did not fire a weapon with my left hand. however, as i previously showed you, when i demonstrated how you ejected cartridge cases, all of those residues showed up, as well as, i am sure, other foreign material that the paraffin removed from my hands. and there were reactions on both hands, fronts and backs. now, theoretically, you should not find them on the backs over here, because i had my left hand behind me, and you would find it on the palm. we found reactions everywhere on the casts. representative ford. it is : now. we will recess until o'clock this afternoon. (whereupon, at : p.m., the president's commission recessed.) afternoon session testimony of cortlandt cunningham resumed the president's commission reconvened at p.m. mr. dulles. you are still under oath, mr. cunningham, so we won't swear you again. will you proceed? mr. eisenberg. mr. cunningham, i would like to take up a few things relating to this morning's testimony and then we will go back to paraffin test. first, i hand you two bullets and i ask you whether you are familiar with these bullets? mr. cunningham. i am. mr. eisenberg. is your mark on those bullets? mr. cunningham. on the nose; yes. mr. eisenberg. can you identify them to us? mr. cunningham. these are two of the tests that i fired from commission exhibit , oswald's revolver. mr. eisenberg. one is a---- mr. cunningham. one of them is a copper-coated lead bullet. in this case, i know that it is western, because that was the cartridge i used, and the other one is a winchester . special lead bullet. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, may i have these admitted in evidence as commission exhibit ? mr. dulles. they may be admitted as . (the bullets referred to were marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. now, using these bullets as demonstrations, could you tell us how you determined that the bullets that were recovered from the body of officer tippit, which you looked at this morning, and those were exhibits through , were respectively a western-winchester . special and a remington-peters . special? mr. cunningham. yes, sir; however, i couldn't do it with these two bullets. mr. eisenberg. sure, use to---- mr. cunningham. the copper-coated lead bullet. i could use and i did use it--i made a photograph. mr. eisenberg. before we discuss that further, let's see if we can mark that for identification. can you describe what is in this photograph? mr. cunningham. yes. it is a photograph of four bullets. the first bullet starting from the left is commission exhibit no. . as you can see right on the label, it is q- , which would be commission exhibit . the next bullet to it is a test bullet that i fired from commission exhibit , which is a known -grain lead bullet of remington-peters manufacture. the third bullet in the photograph is our number c- , which is commission exhibit no. . and the fourth bullet in the photograph is this particular bullet which you have given commission exhibit . it is a copper-coated lead bullet of western manufacture. mr. eisenberg. did you take this photograph? mr. cunningham. i was present when it was taken. i compared the bullets with the negative, and i can testify that this photograph is a true representation--an accurate representation of the four bullets that were photographed. mr. dulles. and this photograph is commission exhibit no.---- mr. eisenberg. if you will admit it into evidence, it will be . mr. dulles. it may be admitted. (the photograph referred to was marked commission exhibit no. and was received in evidence.) (at this point representative ford entered the hearing room.) mr. dulles. all right. mr. eisenberg. mr. cunningham, we have introduced a photograph, which is commission exhibit no. , which shows four bullets labeled "c- ," "r-p," "c- ," and "western." are two of those bullets the bullets which you just identified as exhibit ? mr. cunningham. no; commission exhibit , the copper-coated western bullet, is the same bullet that was in this photograph, labeled the western bullet. mr. eisenberg. could you hold that up? mr. cunningham. yes, sir; that is the bullet. mr. eisenberg. the copper-coated or copper-colored bullet in corresponds with the far right-hand side bullet labeled "western" in ? mr. cunningham. that is right. mr. eisenberg. what about the lead-colored bullet in ? mr. cunningham. that is a remington-peters -grain lead bullet. i do not have that one with me. mr. eisenberg. this would be similar in appearance though to the bullet which was photographed as the "r-p" bullet? mr. cunningham. no, it isn't. mr. eisenberg. why is that? mr. cunningham. because this is a winchester. mr. eisenberg. why isn't it copper coated? mr. cunningham. the western cartridge division of olin mathieson corp. loads both lead- and copper-coated bullets into their . specials. as of today, winchester is only loading--under that brand--uncoated bullets. that is what their latest catalog says. only western is loading copper-coated bullets. they are both made in the same factory--they are both made by the western cartridge division of olin mathieson chemical corp. in east alton, ill. mr. eisenberg. so you didn't give us an r-p test bullet? mr. cunningham. i did not. mr. eisenberg. i see. did you use an r-p test bullet in attempting to make your identification? mr. cunningham. yes; you asked for our first two tests. mr. eisenberg. i see. okay. can you show by use of that photograph, exhibit , how you were able to determine that certain of the bullets found in officer tippit were of r-p manufacture, . special, and certain were winchester-western? mr. cunningham. yes. first of all, in the manufacture of these bullets, each manufacturer has his own specifications for how they are to look. by that i mean generally that both manufacturers' bullets are similar. they are similar in weight. they are generally similar in size and diameter as well as length. however, the number and the spacing between the grooves--these grooves, the cannelures, are not similar. it is actually a knurling process, you can see the knurling marks. mr. dulles. what is the purpose of those? mr. cunningham. lubrication grooves. . specials being lead bullets--in order to keep down excessive leading they put in a lubricant--remington-peters--they use a very dark heavy lubricant. western-winchester, they use a very light-colored waxy type of lubricant. mr. dulles. thank you. mr. cunningham. up above you will see a small groove. it is nothing more than just a slight groove. that can be caused when the case is crimped, the bullet is crimped into the case. representative ford. that is in the r-p? mr. cunningham. on both of them, sir. representative ford. that is on both? mr. cunningham. yes; you see one here, that has actually been put in. they load up to that certain place and they crimp into that groove, which is known as a crimping groove. mr. eisenberg. when you say crimping groove, do you mean the cartridge is tightened around the case? mr. cunningham. the neck of the case is tightened around--is crimped into the bullet. the distance between the base to the first cannelure, and the width of the cannelure, the portion of the bullet between the two cannelures, and the width of the next cannelure, is individual with remington-peters bullets. in other words, western-winchester bullets are not made with the same width cannelures and the same distances between the two of them. each manufacturer prefers to have a certain distance between cannelures and a certain width of cannelure, and it is strictly individual to each company. by these specifications--and also another very important thing is the base shape--you can determine whether or not a bullet is of one manufacture or another. if you will take these two, one of the tests in commission exhibit no. , you will see that the number, the width and everything about the copper-coated western and the uncoated winchester are the same. in other words, they put a flash coat of the gilding metal on the bullet and as i testified previously its chief value is for sales appeal, and, a secondary value to prevent leading. (discussion off the record.) mr. dulles. back on the record again. continue please. mr. eisenberg. mr. cunningham, as of november , , how many major manufacturers were there in the united states who were manufacturing . special bullets? mr. cunningham. three. mr. eisenberg. who were they? mr. cunningham. first, is the western cartridge division of olin mathieson chemical corp., east alton, ill., which manufactures ammunition under the trade names "western" as well as "winchester." the next major manufacturer is du pont, and they manufacture in their remington cartridge division ammunition under the trade names "remington" and "peters," and the third manufacturer is federal cartridge co. in minneapolis. mr. eisenberg. how many manufacturers of . special ammunition are there outside the united states, approximately? mr. cunningham. i would have no way of knowing all of them. i know it is manufactured in canada by dominion, and norma also manufactures it. mr. dulles. what was that name? mr. cunningham. norma. mr. dulles. n-o-r-m-a? mr. cunningham. yes, sir. representative ford. in canada too? mr. cunningham. no, sir; it is in sweden. dwm in germany must manufacture it, i am just recalling these larger manufacturers that should manufacture it. also, some english manufacturers. mr. eisenberg. how are you certain that one of the bullets found in officer tippit was not manufactured by one of the foreign manufacturers, either one you are acquainted with or one you are not? mr. cunningham. we maintain a test specimen and a standard ammunition file, and we have foreign ammunition in them, although i don't think we have all of the foreign. but we have never come across a foreign-made bullet with the same physical characteristics as the bullets represented by those removed from the body of officer tippit. mr. eisenberg. do you attempt to get a complete file of . special ammunition? mr. cunningham. we definitely maintain an up-to-date file in our standard ammunition file in the laboratory of all domestic manufactured ammunition as well as some foreign, for instance, norma and dominion, and we have specimens from other foreign manufacturers. mr. eisenberg. and you say that of the specimens you do have which you feel are as complete as possible you have never come across two types which are similar at least to these . specials? mr. cunningham. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. now mr. frazier yesterday said that the walker bullet seemed to be a . millimeter bullet or may have been fired from the . millimeter mannlicher-carcano rifle, had the same general rifling characteristics as was found on that rifle which is in evidence as commission exhibit---- mr. cunningham. . mr. eisenberg. yes; . now do you have a complete file of . or a large file of . millimeter ammunition? mr. cunningham. we have some. mr. eisenberg. do you feel it is as complete as your . special file? mr. cunningham. no; i do not. however, we have never found any foreign manufacturer manufacturing . mannlicher-carcano ammunition that was similar to this. from its general appearance, it has all the similarities of a western-world-manufactured bullet---- mr. eisenberg. now this is commission---- mr. cunningham. in other words, the knurling is typical--the physical characteristics were similar to those of the bullets manufactured by the western cartridge co. mr. eisenberg. this is commission exhibit , which is the--as to which mr. frazier has testified, and which is believed to be the bullet found in the walker residence. are you familiar with it? mr. cunningham. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. and you have examined it as well as mr. frazier? mr. cunningham. i have. mr. eisenberg. would you say that this bullet was a . -mm. western copper-jacketed mannlicher-carcano bullet? mr. cunningham. i would. mr. eisenberg. as definitely as you say the bullets which we have just been looking at are respectively remington-peters and western-winchester . special bullets? mr. cunningham. yes, sir. mr. dulles. could i see that just a moment? what did that hit, the brick wall of the house? mr. cunningham. i have no idea, sir. mr. dulles. you don't know? mr. cunningham. i don't know. i have no first-hand knowledge of it. it is in essentially the same condition as when we received it in the laboratory, and all i know would be what has already been furnished your commission by report. mr. dulles. thank you. mr. eisenberg. now given the fact that that was a . -millimeter mannlicher-carcano cartridge, could that have been fired in any other . -millimeter rifle? mr. cunningham. no, sir; it has to be a rifle that is chambered specifically for this particular cartridge. in other words, there are other . -millimeter cartridges. mr. eisenberg. now, as i understand it, your conclusion and mr. frazier's was only that this cartridge, that this bullet, could have been fired from exhibit or a rifle with similar---- mr. cunningham. on the basis of the rifling characteristics it could have been fired from . however, there are insufficient marks remaining to determine whether or not it had actually been so fired. mr. eisenberg. now the testimony yesterday as i recall it was that it was fired either from exhibit or from a rifle with similar, or from a weapon with similar rifling characteristics? mr. cunningham. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. but according to your testimony it would have to be similar to a . -millimeter mannlicher-carcano rifle? mr. cunningham. no; i did not so testify. you asked if you could fire another . -mm. cartridge other than the cartridge---- mr. eisenberg. i asked if that cartridge, if a western manufacture . -mm. mannlicher-carcano cartridge could be fired in a gun other than the . -mm. mannlicher-carcano. and you said, as i recall it, "it could only be fired from a gun chambered for that cartridge." mr. cunningham. that is correct. that . -mm. mannlicher-carcano cartridge could only be fired in a weapon that is chambered for that particular cartridge. further we have never found another cartridge that this particular type bullet has been loaded into. mr. eisenberg. have you any reason to believe there is another . -millimeter rifle manufactured that is chambered for that cartridge? mr. cunningham. none that i know of. maybe i misunderstood you. you mean, if the weapon is chambered for a . -millimeter mannlicher-carcano, then that is commonly known as its caliber? mr. eisenberg. yes. mr. cunningham. but you can rechamber weapons for another cartridge, as they do all the time with the military surplus springfield rifles. you can have them rebarreled and rechambered. mr. eisenberg. apart from rechambering, talking just about original manufacture, do i understand that the only weapon which you have encountered, the only . millimeter weapon you have encountered which would fire the particular type of cartridge which is exhibit is the mannlicher-carcano rifle? mr. cunningham. yes, sir; the various models of it. mr. eisenberg. okay. before the luncheon--are there any further questions along this line? before the luncheon recess we were talking about the paraffin test and we were discussing the significance of a positive result, and you had given testimony concerning two experiments which the fbi had run which indicated that positive results might be obtained even by a person who had not recently fired a weapon? mr. cunningham. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. a paraffin test was also run of oswald's cheek and it produced a negative result. mr. cunningham. yes. mr. eisenberg. do your tests, or do the tests which you ran, or your experience with revolvers and rifles, cast any light on the significance of a negative result being obtained on the right cheek? mr. cunningham. no, sir; i personally wouldn't expect to find any residues on a person's right cheek after firing a rifle due to the fact that by the very principles and the manufacture and the action, the cartridge itself is sealed into the chamber by the bolt being closed behind it, and upon firing the case, the cartridge case expands into the chamber filling it up and sealing it off from the gases, so none will come back in your face, and so by its very nature, i would not expect to find residue on the right cheek of a shooter. mr. eisenberg. would you expect to find residues on a person who has fired a revolver such as commission exhibit ? mr. cunningham. there again, by its design, you would expect to find something, although there are cases where you won't find it. mr. eisenberg. why do you expect to find a residue in the case of the revolver as opposed to the rifle? mr. cunningham. a revolver has a revolving cylinder. there is a space between the barrel and the front portion of the cylinder. mr. eisenberg. i wonder whether you could show that by use of exhibit ? mr. cunningham. you can see when you close the cylinder, and each chamber lines up, there is a few thousandths space between. when the bullet is fired, the bullet jumps across this space and enters the ramp and then into the rifling. the gases always escape through this small space. the loss is negligible, but the gases are escaping on every shot. after you fire this revolver, you can see residues, smoke deposits and other residues around the entrance to the rear portion of the barrel which is next to the cylinder, as well as on the cylinder itself. so you would expect to find gunpowder residues on a person's hands after he fired a revolver. mr. eisenberg. do i understand your testimony to be that there is no equivalent gap in the manufacture of a rifle? mr. cunningham. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. did you run any kind of a test with this revolver which would indicate whether it did in fact leave residues? mr. cunningham. yes; i did, or we did, three of us, mr. frazier, mr. killion, and myself. the tests were run on me. i was the one who washed my hands thoroughly. i did not use a brush, i just washed them with green soap and rinsed them in distilled water. mr. eisenberg. the purpose of this washing was what? mr. cunningham. to remove possible dirt from my hands. i washed my hands. the gun was then wiped off with dilute hcl to get rid of any deposits already on the gun, and i fired it in our bullet-recovery room, four times--and then after firing i opened it up and ejected the cartridge cases into my hand, as i showed you earlier today. the amount of residue that you pick up on your hands from ejection of the cartridge cases was in my hand at the time. i then, under ideal conditions naturally, went back and had paraffin casts made of my hands and these were treated with a solution of diphenylbenzidine. the results of this examination were that we got a positive result on both casts, front and back. many reactions in this area where i had ejected the cartridge cases in my hand were noted. mr. eisenberg. by the way, you testified this morning that many common substances will produce a positive reaction to the nitrate test, so-called paraffin test. will the handling of an unclean weapon also produce a positive reaction? mr. cunningham. just as much as firing it will. that is what makes this test so unreliable. handling a recently fired weapon, that is covered with residues--you would get just as many oxidizing agents in the form of nitrates and nitrites on your hands as you would from firing it and in some cases more--especially up here and around here you would. mr. dulles. does the time between the tests, between the firing and the test, make very much difference, within a few hours? mr. cunningham. if the residues are on the skin they will react. in other words, if the material has been washed off completely, then you are all through, but if it remains on the skin or is imbedded in the pores of the skin it would still react, but so will so many other things. mr. eisenberg. just to review for a second your testimony this morning, in the experiments that the fbi ran, a revolver or automatic pistol were used as opposed to rifles, as i recall it? mr. cunningham. yes. mr. eisenberg. were there any negative results following the shooting of the revolver or automatic pistol? mr. cunningham. none of those were negative results, but they were not run under the same conditions. by the way, with an automatic pistol you shouldn't expect to find any residues, for the same reason as with a rifle--the cartridge is chamber, and the boltface comes in right behind. mr. eisenberg. could you look at your notes for your first experiment, because as i recall there were some negative results on that. mr. cunningham. the only negative results were on the people who were run as a control and who had never fired a gun, and even for those people they all got positive reactions at least on one hand. mr. eisenberg. i am talking about the first experiment now, not the second one. mr. cunningham. the first experiment--yes; that was true. this test was a little bit different. in other words, they were not just taking people from their work. these people had washed their hands. mr. eisenberg. in other words, their hands were cleaned before they fired the weapon? mr. cunningham. yes. mr. eisenberg. but then some of them fired a revolver and still didn't get a residue, as i remember your testimony? mr. cunningham. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. did you make a test with the exhibit, with the rifle, , to determine whether that left a powder residue on the right cheek? mr. cunningham. we did. mr. eisenberg. will you describe that test? mr. cunningham. yes; this time we ran a control. we were interested in running a control to find out just what the possibility was of getting a positive reaction after a person has thoroughly washed their hands. mr. killion used green soap and washed his hands, and we ran a control, both of the right cheek and of both hands. we got many reactions on both the right hand and the left hand, and he had not tired a gun that day. mr. eisenberg. this was before firing the rifle? mr. cunningham. yes, sir. that was before firing the rifle. we got no reaction on the cheek. mr. eisenberg. also before firing the rifle? mr. cunningham. yes. we fired the rifle. mr. killion fired it three times rapidly, using similar ammunition to that used in the assassination. we reran the tests both on the cheek and both hands. this time we got a negative reaction on all casts. mr. eisenberg. so to recapitulate, after firing the rifle rapid-fire no residues of any nitrate were picked off mr. killion's cheek? mr. cunningham. that is correct, and there were none on the hands. we cleaned off the rifle again with dilute hcl. i loaded it for him. he held it in one of the cleaned areas and i pushed the clip in so he would not have to get his hands near the chamber--in other words, so he wouldn't pick up residues, from it, or from the action, or from the receiver. when we ran the casts, we got no reaction on either hand or on his cheek. on the controls, when he hadn't fired a gun all day, we got numerous reactions. mr. eisenberg. are there any further questions on the paraffin test? representative ford. based on your testimony this morning, and what you have told us in the last few minutes, why are paraffin tests conducted and how extensively are they? mr. cunningham. many local law-enforcement agencies do conduct these tests, and at their request the fbi will process them. they take the cast and we will process them. however, in reporting, we give them qualified results, since we frequently will get some reaction. numerous reactions or a few reactions will be found on the casts. however, in no way does this indicate that a person has recently fired a weapon. then we list a few of the oxidizing agents, the common ones, such as in urine and tobacco and cosmetics and a few other things that one may come in contact with. even clorox would give you a positive reaction. representative ford. is this a test that has been conducted by law-enforcement agencies for some time. is it a new test? mr. cunningham. no, sir; the first test that i reported on here were conducted in . there may be some law-enforcement agencies which use the test for psychological reasons. mr. dulles. explain that. mr. cunningham. yes, sir; what they do is they ask, say, "we are going to run a paraffin test on you, you might as well confess now," and they will--it is-- mr. dulles. i get your point. mr. eisenberg. following up congressman ford's question, does the fbi run paraffin tests except on request from other law-enforcement agencies? mr. cunningham. we don't, no. basically, the paraffin test is the preparing of the cast. we don't do that. we will run the chemical processing of these casts at the request of the local law-enforcement agency. mr. eisenberg. to rephrase it, if the fbi is having an investigation by itself in a matter it has primary jurisdiction over, will it use the paraffin test? mr. cunningham. no; not the paraffin-chemical test. representative ford. is that because of the feeling that it is not as reliable as it should be? mr. cunningham. it is the feeling that it is definitely not reliable as to determining whether or not a person has fired a weapon. it is positive, and diphenlybenzidine solution is very positive and very sensitive, as to whether or not an oxidizing agent is present and it is used in chemistry. mr. dulles. you and i with our pipes would be in trouble here, wouldn't we? mr. cunningham. yes, sir; i mentioned that this morning. representative ford. he brought it out this morning. mr. cunningham. i would be willing to state right now if we processed both of your hands you would come up positive, because invariably pipe smokers stick their finger in the bowl and you would get a positive reaction. i am a cigar smoker, i also would come up positive. mr. eisenberg. i don't have any further questions, mr. chairman. mr. dulles. do you have any further questions? representative ford. i have no questions. mr. rhyne. i take it in sum and substance that these paraffin tests are practically worthless? mr. cunningham. for the determination of whether or not a person has fired a weapon. mr. rhyne. a gun? mr. cunningham. yes. now the test is not worthless in chemistry. mr. dulles. what use are they then except possibly from this psychological angle that you have mentioned? mr. cunningham. we don't---- mr. dulles. are they useful in other ways than but for the psychological reasons you mentioned? mr. cunningham. as far as whether or not a person has fired a gun? mr. dulles. yes. mr. cunningham. no. even with the mere handling of this weapon i could pick up residues. one could not testify that a person has fired a weapon because he had residues on his hands, which i showed you this morning, for example. there is a spot right there on my hand, and all i have done is empty the weapon. representative ford. did the fbi conduct a paraffin test on oswald? mr. cunningham. no, sir; the dallas police department did. representative ford. the fbi did not? mr. cunningham. we did not, sir. representative ford. you didn't analyze it? mr. cunningham. we did not. we obtained the paraffin casts and another agent in the spectographic unit took them to oak ridge and had them subjected to neutron activation, with which i am not familiar. but we did not do the original examination and the reporting. i don't know definitely as to what the dallas police department did. mr. eisenberg. it was under the supervision of the dallas police department. i think a doctor performed the test, i am not sure whether it was a police doctor or not. by the way, after the paraffin test is run, does the positive reaction stay evident on the paraffin cast? mr. cunningham. no, it does not, due to the fact you have to wash it off. the solution of diphenylbenzidine is percent sulphuric acid. the solution we were using in these tests was . grams of diphenylbenzidine to ml. of percent sulphuric acid, and sulphuric acid is corrosive. in other words, the majority of the solution is percent sulphuric acid. mr. eisenberg. so the casts as they are now don't show anything except white paraffin? mr. cunningham. that is correct. mr. dulles. you have no further questions? mr. murray. no, thank you, sir. mr. dulles. thank you very much, mr. cunningham. thank you very much, sir. testimony of joseph d. nicol mr. dulles. mr. nicol, i am presiding at the request of the chief justice. will you kindly raise your right hand. do you swear the testimony you will give before this commission is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. nicol. i do. mr. eisenberg. mr. nicol, would you state your name and position? mr. nicol. joseph d. nicol, superintendent of the bureau of criminal identification and investigation for the state of illinois. mr. eisenberg. could you briefly describe your qualifications in the field of firearms investigation? mr. nicol. i began studying this field in in the chicago police crime laboratory under charles wilson, remained there as a firearms technician for approximately years, and then moved to pittsburgh, where i directed and set up the pittsburgh and allegheny county crime laboratory, also working in the field of ballistics. then i went to miami, fla., and set up the dade county crime laboratory and worked there for years. i went to michigan state and taught for and now i am back in illinois, in springfield, as superintendent of the bureau. mr. eisenberg. could you tell us approximately how many bullets and cartridge cases you have examined to identify them or attempt to identify them to suspect weapons? mr. nicol. this would number in the thousands, i do not have an exact figure, but our caseload in chicago is approximately , guns annually, of which we would make approximately between and a dozen comparisons, so the comparisons that would be conducted by myself or those under my direct supervision would be approximately , a year. now this is just a rough figure. mr. eisenberg. do you have any publications or lectures? mr. nicol. i have one minor publication in the field of firearms. most of my publication work has been with the "journal of criminology" in the area, of the technical note and abstract section. i do not have any major publications in the firearms field. mr. eisenberg. what is your association with that journal? mr. nicol. i am associate editor of the "journal of criminal law and criminology." mr. eisenberg. do you lecture on any regular basis? mr. nicol. at the present time i am lecturing with the university of illinois in criminal investigation, at the chicago campus, and prior to that i had been on the staff at michigan state university for approximately years. mr. eisenberg. what was your education before you went into this field? mr. nicol. i have a bachelor of science degree in chemistry from northwestern, and during the period that i was with the chicago crime laboratory i got a master's in physics also from northwestern. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, i would like permission to take mr. nicol's testimony as an expert witness in the field of firearms identification. mr. dulles. you may proceed. mr. eisenberg. now, mr. nicol, i will hand you exhibits, items, commission exhibits , , and , which i will describe for the record as being a bullet and bullet fragments, and i ask you whether you are familiar with those commission exhibits? mr. nicol. may i examine them? mr. eisenberg. yes, you may. mr. nicol. yes, this was the exhibit that was given to me as q- in the original transmission. mr. eisenberg. this being which commission exhibit? mr. nicol. this being . exhibit , this was referred to as q- , and also accompanied the other exhibit. commission exhibit , this is q- . mr. eisenberg. are your marks on those exhibits? mr. nicol. yes, i have marked my initials on an unrifled portion of each one of these exhibits. there were also other marks on it at the time i received the specimens. mr. eisenberg. i don't know whether you gentlemen have seen these. these are rifle bullets and bullet fragments. mr. dulles. is this the one that was found on the stretcher? mr. eisenberg. exhibit is the bullet that was found on the stretcher. exhibits and were found in the front portion of the president's car. mr. dulles. these are pretty badly mutilated, aren't they? mr. nicol. apparently they are separated so that one can't tell whether they come from a single bullet or from two separate projectiles. one is a nose portion and the other is a base. mr. dulles. is this the one that is the nose portion? mr. eisenberg. you are handing, mr. dulles is handing mr. nicol commission exhibit . mr. nicol. no, that would be the base portion. mr. dulles. that is what i thought. are those different parts of the same bullet possibly? mr. nicol. that is possible, because there appears to be an interval of approximately an eighth of an inch that is not present, so that the area where one begins is not even with the other, so it is not possible to tell, at least i couldn't to express an opinion. mr. eisenberg. that is, they might be two separate bullets or two parts of the same bullet? mr. nicol. two parts of the same or separate bullets that is right. mr. eisenberg. i hand you commission exhibit , which for the record consists of two bullets, and ask you whether you are familiar with those bullets? mr. nicol. these are the two projectiles which were given to me as k- , and were used by me as standards or tests. mr. eisenberg. now, when you say "standards or tests," could you amplify that? mr. nicol. on the basis of information on the cartridge, or on the envelope, rather, it was my understanding that these had been fired from a weapon. i have not any personal knowledge of the weapon from which they were fired, but they were used as comparison standards to be compared against rifling impressions on the other three exhibits. mr. eisenberg. can you tell us how you obtained these four exhibits which you have just looked at? mr. nicol. all these exhibits were obtained from mr. eisenberg on march , here in this office. mr. eisenberg. and for the record, i obtained these items from the federal bureau of investigation, and transmitted them directly to mr. nicol for his examination. now, mr. nicol, you therefore did not fire the two test bullets which you used in your comparison? mr. nicol. no, sir; i did not. mr. eisenberg. and can you go into that at any length as to--do you have any reason for that? mr. nicol. well, probably two very basic reasons. one, the matter of time, and secondly the fact that i did not have facilities in the area where i was working for the collection of such tests from a high-powered weapon. there is the other problem, as developed later, it was apparent that the weapon, even in the firing of this small sequence, was undergoing some changes, and it was my understanding that several shots had been fired since these tests were fired and there might be some likelihood of transitory changes which would make these the best specimens rather than those i might fire now after this series. mr. eisenberg. again for the record, i had been informed by the fbi that some or more bullets had been fired from the rifle, and that the firing of this many bullets from a high-velocity weapon would seriously alter the characteristics of the barrel. representative ford. would that be your conclusion, too? mr. nicol. yes, it would be. it has been my experience that there is a rapid erosion with the high pressures and high temperatures that are involved in a weapon of that velocity. mr. eisenberg. now, mr. nicol, did you examine the three exhibits which were given to you as q- , q- , and q- , and which are now, i believe , , and ---- mr. nicol. yes sir; i did. mr. eisenberg. to determine whether or not they had come from the identical barrel as that in which the two--the bullets in exhibit had sheen fired? mr. nicol. yes, i did. mr. eisenberg. can you give us your conclusions? mr. nicol. yes. it is my opinion that the same weapon that fired commission's exhibit also fired the projectiles in commission's exhibits , , and . mr. eisenberg. that would be to the exclusion of all other weapons? mr. nicol. correct. mr. eisenberg. did you take photographs of the test and suspect items? mr. nicol. yes; i did. mr. eisenberg. under the comparison microscope? mr. nicol. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. and have you brought those photographs with you? mr. nicol. yes, sir; i have. i might say in passing that this was done in philadelphia with equipment that i was not thoroughly conversant with, that is, a type that i have used, but each piece has some idiosyncrasy, and considering the time element i do not offer these as the best quality that could be produced under the circumstances. representative ford. does that make any difference in your judgment or opinion? mr. nicol. no, sir; it doesn't, because my opinion is based upon a visual examination. that is, photography is not an integral part of arriving at the conclusion, except in one facet which i will discuss later. mr. eisenberg. on that subject, have you testified in court on firearms identification? mr. nicol. yes, sir; many times. mr. eisenberg. do you usually use photographs when you testify? mr. nicol. no. as a matter of fact, i can't recall an instance in which i have. mr. eisenberg. and why were these prepared? mr. nicol. these were prepared at your request so that there would be documentary evidence of what i was observing. however--and this one, for example, will serve to illustrate the type of photography that is involved. mr. eisenberg. excuse me a second. you are holding up a photograph labeled q- , k- . did you take that photograph, mr. nicol? mr. nicol. yes, this was taken under a comparison microscope. mr. eisenberg. and q- is one of the bullets which i have called the suspect bullets, and k- is the test bullet? mr. nicol. yes, q- would be , and k- would be one of the projectiles in . mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, may i have this photograph admitted as commission exhibit no. ? mr. dulles. it may be admitted. (the photograph referred to was marked commission exhibit no. and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. using this photograph, mr. nicol, could you explain some of the markings which led you to the conclusion that q- or exhibit had been fired from the same barrel through which k- was fired? mr. dulles. before you do that, just for an amateur, would you explain what this is a photograph of, the inside of the barrel? mr. nicol. no, this is a photograph of two projectiles. mr. dulles. projectiles? mr. nicol. this is the dividing line of the comparison bridge actually. you see a portion of one, of k- on one side and q- on the other. mr. dulles. yes. mr. eisenberg. is that groove on the right a cannelure? mr. nicol. there is a cannelure, that would be the position at which the projectile is crimped and held in the cartridge case. representative ford. why wouldn't that show on q- ? mr. nicol. it would be over here on the other side. you see you only see this much of q- , and it may show on q- , but it will be over underneath, and you only see this much of it--in half the field. representative ford. this is an overlay in effect? mr. nicol. in a sense, yes, and you are actually masking off half of each one that is represented over here, and masking off half of the k- over here. (discussion off the record.) mr. eisenberg. what is the magnification of these photographs, by the way? mr. nicol. these were taken on five by seven, i would estimate about diameter. mr. eisenberg. and is the magnification of q- the same as the magnification of k- ? mr. nicol. yes, sir; the optics are carefully matched in order that they magnify identically. mr. eisenberg. will that statement be true of all the comparison photographs that will be shown? mr. nicol. yes, sir. they may not be at the same magnification because i took some of the subsequent ones on a different unit which had different optics. mr. eisenberg. but the left and right side of the pictures would be at the same magnification as each other? mr. nicol. they will be at matched magnification, correct. mr. eisenberg. why don't you continue. mr. nicol. starting up at the top you will notice a white patch which represents a land impression on the two projectiles. immediately below that a large patch with a similarity of the contours of the edges. mr. eisenberg. mr. nicol, do you think you could circle that and mark it " " so that people looking at the record in the future will know what you are referring to? circle it or make an arrow? mr. nicol. all right. below that in approximately this position you will see a line on q- that is found over in the comparable position on k- . below that at a point representing an imperfection on q- , slight damage to the projectile, you will notice a line which continues across. below that a pair of lines, and then a larger line, below that a pair of fairly deep impressions, and below that another pair of single broad grooves, and then another pair, one of the lines is not in the same size, and then as one gets further down the match is--the bullets are no longer in a match relationship, simply because q- is somewhat distorted as a result of having struck some hard object at the base portion, so that it is oval. in the case here we are comparing two surfaces of different radii so that they do not--looking at them as a projection they do not match up. but in this particular region, from approximately this fill-in in the cannelure, there is a sufficient number of points of identification to lead me to the conclusion they were both fired in the same weapon. mr. eisenberg. could you mark that, that you mention as " "? mr. dulles. this again, at least the "q" part of this, is the bullet that was found in the stretcher? mr. nicol. yes, sir; this specimen here. mr. dulles. that is on the left-hand side, is it? mr. nicol. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. "q," as mr. cunningham stated, is the fbi mark for "questioned," whereas "k" is the fbi mark for "known." mr. nicol. i retained the same nomenclature so i would not add any unnecessary marks. mr. eisenberg. now do you have another photograph? mr. nicol. yes. i took three different positions of q- and k- . this would be now with the same projectiles under the comparison microscope but rotated to a new position. each one of these positions shows a similar rotation. do you want to mark these? mr. eisenberg. this photograph was also taken by you, mr. nicol? mr. nicol. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. may i have this admitted as ? mr. dulles. it shall be admitted. (the photograph referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and was received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. this is also marked q- and k- . that will be commission exhibit . would you discuss that photograph briefly, mr. nicol? mr. nicol. this represents a new position of q- and k- in a match relationship. both have been rotated simultaneously through the same angle, and looking at the bottom this time, the large broad area represents a land impression. then coming up to a point approximately a half inch above the land edge there is a deep groove paired up with several other deep indentations. these are worth noting because these represented very prominent index marks on both q- , q- , and q- . this was used as, you might say, a point of departure in lining up the projectiles. and again this shows what i would consider evidence of similarity between the rifling impressions on both projectiles. mr. dulles. you wouldn't go further than that--"evidence of similarity"? mr. nicol. well, i would go so far as to say that based upon the individual characteristics that i observed, these, plus those shown on the other photograph, would lead me to the opinion that they were fired in the same gun. when i refer to similarities, these would be individual characteristics which would be in the same category as the individual points of identification on a fingerprint. this would be tantamount to the fingerprint of that particular weapon. mr. eisenberg. this is the third photograph? mr. nicol. this is a third photograph of another very prominent mark on both projectiles. mr. eisenberg. taken by you, mr. nicol? mr. nicol. right. mr. eisenberg. may i have this admitted as commission exhibit ? mr. dulles. it will be admitted. (the photograph referred to was marked commission exhibit no. and was received in evidence.) representative ford (addressing mr. eisenberg). now both q- and k- were fired from the commission exhibit ? mr. eisenberg. , yes. the fbi fired k- from exhibit . mr. nicol has now identified q- as having been fired from the same source as k- , and, therefore, from exhibit . representative ford. yes. mr. nicol. this represents a third position of q- and k- , and in this third position, of course, the first two positions still are in match relationship, that is to say in a relative sense; because of mutilation of q- they would not be precise, there would be some mild adjustments. what i am illustrating here is a very prominent groove. in this particular case, q- has displaced slightly in the mechanics of photography so that the lower broad shoulder that you see here of this heavy line does not match up. this should come up just slightly above. the photographer in printing chose this negative rather than another one which would have been superior, and i apologize for this particular photograph. but this groove, along with the other pattern shown on , also appear prominently on q- and q- as prominent index marks. mr. dulles. i don't quite understand . this is the last one we have just admitted. are these ridges the same? this wouldn't be very clear for the record--this is that i have here. mr. nicol. no, this is not the same view. mr. dulles. that is not the same view at all. it is a different part of the bullet. mr. nicol. this is rotated, both of them rotated simultaneously the same amount to bring those into position here. mr. dulles. now on , i don't see anything comparable on the q- bullet, a ridge comparable on the q- bullet to the one i find on the k- bullet. mr. nicol. the dividing line is right through here. mr. dulles. yes. mr. nicol. and it is this big groove gouged through there. mr. dulles. it stops there at that point? mr. nicol. it stops right here. this is the base of the bullet. the lead is protruding, that is what you see down here. mr. dulles. i see. mr. eisenberg. could you circle the mark you are discussing now? mr. nicol. that comprises the three positions of the comparison of q- and k- . mr. eisenberg. did you also take photographs of q- , which is our commission number ? mr. nicol. yes, sir; this particular position is a comparison of q- and q- . mr. eisenberg. you took this photograph, mr. nicol? mr. nicol. right. mr. eisenberg. may i have this admitted as ? mr. dulles. yes. (the photograph referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification and received in evidence.) mr. nicol. due to the extent of mutilation of these two projectiles, i found it more advantageous to compare q- and q- rather than comparing q- and k- . mr. eisenberg. in other words, you took q- , which you had already identified as having been fired through--from the same rifle as k- , and compared it with q- in the photograph? mr. nicol. right. mr. eisenberg. now, in determining whether q- had been fired from the same rifle as k- , that is, in determining whether the suspect bullet had been fired from the same rifle as the test bullet, did you match up q- against the test bullet or against q- ? mr. nicol. i did both. but photographically, i could get a better illustration between q- and q- rather than k- , because what was apparent was that the heavy groove here, which would be a projection in the barrel, and, of course, being outstanding, would be subject to rapid wear, had changed somewhat between the q specimens and the k specimens. and so in order to get closer to the actual time of the original firing, it was advantageous to make a comparison of q- and q- . mr. eisenberg. but you arrived at a conclusion independently also on the basis of k- ? mr. nicol. yes, also on the basis of other striations which are not as easily illustrated photographically, the reason being the mutilation of the projectile. and here we are comparing a curved surface with a flat surface, or a curved surface that is flattened out, and the geometry is no longer the same. mr. eisenberg. but you did compare q- to k- under the microscope? mr. nicol. yes. mr. eisenberg. and did you arrive at a positive conclusion? mr. nicol. yes, i did. it is my conclusion that the same weapon that fired k- fired q- . mr. eisenberg. so the photograph that compares q- and q- is only for illustrative purposes? mr. nicol. yes, sir. mr. dulles. for clarification purposes, am i correct that q- is the mutilated fractured bullet that was found in the car? mr. nicol. yes, sir. mr. dulles. and was q- in such a situation that it furnished any useful test or not? mr. nicol. yes; i could use it for comparison. mr. dulles. that was the other part, or separate part found in the president's car? mr. nicol. q- is the nose. mr. dulles. yes, i remember that. i looked at that. mr. nicol. you see, what i have to work with is this flat back portion there, as against the round part, and of course the geometry is just not the same. mr. eisenberg. you were pointing just now to---- mr. nicol. q- . mr. dulles. q- is the nose and q- is the base? mr. nicol. base portion, correct. mr. dulles. of the fractured bullet. mr. nicol. or bullets. mr. dulles. or bullets. mr. eisenberg. now, you had just begun to show us photograph . mr. nicol. represents, for purposes of illustration--it represents q- on the right and q- on the left, and the major mark that i referred to on the comparison of k- and q- is represented by this deep gouge across the field here. there are also other smaller striations that are in the match, above it. mr. eisenberg. you now show me a photograph of q-l and q- ? mr. nicol. right. mr. eisenberg. did you take this photograph? mr. nicol. i did. mr. dulles. it will be admitted as commission exhibit . (the photograph referred to was marked commission exhibit no. and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. again i ask, mr. nicol, whether in arriving at your conclusion you made a comparison of q- directly against k- ? mr. nicol. yes, sir; i did. and the purpose here, as expressed before, is that the illustration seemed to be better between q- and q- , as far as the photographic presentation was concerned. we have here q- on the right and q- on the left. just down at the base portion of q- , just the small portion visible here, there is a group of very prominent marks that are in a match relationship there. these are the same group referred to in---- mr. dulles. that is q- and q- that mr. rhyne is looking at? mr. rhyne. yes. mr. nicol. it would be the same area as referred to in . mr. eisenberg. now, does that complete your photographs of the three bullets in exhibits , , and ? mr. nicol. that's right--against commission exhibit . mr. eisenberg. now, mr. nicol, i hand you commission exhibit and i ask you whether you are familiar with this item, which i state for the record is a bullet found inside the walker residence after the attempted assassination of general walker. mr. nicol. yes, sir; i have seen this. mr. eisenberg. is your mark on that? mr. nicol. correct. mr. eisenberg. mr. nicol, did you make an examination of commission exhibit to determine whether it was fired from the same rifle as commission exhibit , which we have--one of which we have also been calling k- ? mr. nicol. yes, sir; i did. mr. eisenberg. and what was your conclusion? mr. nicol. i found that within the limits that commission exhibit is badly mutilated as a result of having struck some hard object on the side--that the class characteristics generally correspond, that is to say it would be fired from a weapon of comparable rifling to commission exhibit . then looking at an area which i can best describe on as being a burr that develops along the edge of the rifling, i found both on the upper surface, which would be the groove impression, and along on the shoulder, quite a few points, individual characteristics, which matched up in each of the positions which were visible. because of the mutilation i was not able to put these in the kind of a match relationship that would suggest a positive identification. however, i did not find anything on commission exhibit that was incompatible with commission exhibit , so without going to the degree of saying that there is a positive identification, i would express it this way--that there is a fair probability that commission exhibit was fired from the same weapon that fired . mr. eisenberg. now, mr. nicol, we had testimony from a mr. frazier yesterday of the fbi firearms section, and he testified that the fbi does not make probable identifications, but merely positive or negative identifications. mr. nicol. i am aware of their position. this is not, i am sure, arrived at without careful consideration. however, to say that because one does not find sufficient marks for identification that it is a negative, i think is going overboard in the other direction. and for purposes of probative value, for whatever it might be worth, in the absence of very definite negative evidence, i think it is permissible to say that in an exhibit such as there is enough on it to say that it could have come, and even perhaps a little stronger, to say that it probably came from this, without going so far as to say to the exclusion of all other guns. this i could not do. mr. dulles (addressing mr. eisenberg). would you refresh my memory as to this other exhibit--i don't remember--is the actual bullet that was fired and mutilated in the walker attempt? mr. eisenberg. yes. mr. dulles. and is what? mr. eisenberg. those are the test bullets fired by the fbi. mr. dulles. i was a little puzzled by the order. mr. eisenberg. yes. that is just the order in which they were introduced in evidence. mr. dulles. and really came before in terms of time. mr. eisenberg. yes. mr. dulles. that clears it up for me. mr. nicol. this is the condition of the bullet. mr. dulles. i have seen the bullet, yes. mr. nicol. it is in sad shape, to say the least. mr. eisenberg. as i understand your testimony, therefore, you feel that there are sufficient identical microscopic characteristics on and to say that they were probably fired from the same weapon, but not enough to say that they were definitely fired from the same weapon. mr. nicol. yes. my opinion would be based upon the finding of families of lines that would be of the order of two to four fine striations on the burr that i referred to. for a stronger identification, i would want a larger group, i would want perhaps five or six in a given area, all matching in terms of contour as well as position. but this i did not find. and so for that reason, i would not want to express this as a positive finding. however, i would not want to be misunderstood or suggest that this could not have come from that particular gun. mr. eisenberg. now, you say burr. this is a burr in the barrel of the rifle which produced---- mr. nicol. no, i believe it is the result of a displacement of metal as the land impresses into the jacket material, and actually machines up a burr along here on the driving edge. mr. eisenberg. so is there an extrusion on--on the rifle barrel which would produce that? mr. nicol. it may have been true at one time. it appeared at some point in the passage through the barrel, this portion of the jacket curled up and subsequently before it left the barrel was touched by the rifling, so that it is now flat and even. when i refer to it as a burr, it is not raised up. it is even with the rest of this surface. but you can see the definite outline of that burr at the land edge. (at this point the chairman entered the hearing room.) mr. eisenberg. now, would this be caused by an extrusion in the barrel or a concavity in the barrel? mr. nicol. it is probably the result of erosion back at the chamber, back at the rear of the barrel, along the land edge here, and then as the bullet gets to the end of the barrel, pressures decrease, so erosion also decreases, and therefore there is still rifling enough left to press this down and make some impression on the projectile itself. mr. eisenberg. and does this lie within a land impression, or the edge of a land impression? mr. nicol. it would be actually in the groove impression. mr. eisenberg. in the groove impression of the bullet? mr. nicol. of the bullet. mr. eisenberg. now, you found this same mark on the walker bullet as you found on the bullets that were---- mr. nicol. all the q specimens and the k specimens had this characteristic burr. now, i could not honestly say that this would not be found, the burr would not be found on other weapons of similar construction, similar velocity. however, the fine lines that you can see visible in this photograph, by which an identification could be made, would be the same individual characteristics as any other fine lines on the rifling impression. mr. eisenberg. now, mr. nicol, was this burr in the same position in its relation to the edge of the groove on what we have been calling the walker bullet as it was in the other bullets? mr. nicol. yes, sir. and, as a matter of fact, repeated in about the same extent in those land positions and groove positions which are still visible on that projectile. mr. eisenberg. so that you not only have the existence of the burr, but you have it at a characteristic distance from the edge of a groove impression? mr. nicol. correct. and while the contour matched, this is not as significant, because any two guns manufactured with the same rifling cutter, as perhaps a production weapon like this would be, would have the same contour characteristics. so this would not necessarily be definitive. but the presence of those individual characteristics which are referred to, although not sufficient for a positive, certainly would indicate that there is a possibility that this is fired from that particular gun. mr. eisenberg. were you able to secure photographs of this walker bullet under the microscope? mr. nicol. no; i could not, because what i would be comparing would be a curved surface that is flattened out with the test bullets, which would be still in curved geometry. so that while i might get one point in match, the others, you see, would be spread out. so that--actually, an identification of that kind is made in a dynamic fashion. that is to say, one bullet is slid and the other bullet is rotated. so that it is in a sense unfolding the curved bullet so that it resembles in a progressive way the flattened out projectile. mr. eisenberg. mr. nicol, i now hand you commission exhibit--well, before i go into that, is there any further testimony you wish to give on the subject of the rifle bullets? mr. nicol. no. the only other work i did on it was with respect to an examination of the nose of q- to ascertain whether there was any evidence of ricochet or perhaps contact with fabric and so on. however, although there were some fine striations on there, there was nothing of such a nature that it would suggest a pattern, like a weave pattern or anything of that nature. so that except for the nick, which i understand has been explained as a site where spectrographic tests were conduced, no further tests were run on either of those projectiles. mr. eisenberg. yes. for the record, the nick which mr. nicol refers to was in the nose of what was given to you as q- --and which i have been informed was a bit of metal that was taken out by the fbi to make a spectrographic test on the chemical composition of the bullet, and therefore was not produced in the process of firing the bullet. now, mr. nicol, i hand you commission exhibits , , and , which for the record consist of three shells, three rifle cartridge cases, which were found on the sixth floor of the tsbd building at the easternmost corner of the south face. i ask you whether you are familiar with those shells? mr. dulles. they bear your mark? mr. nicol. yes, sir; there is a little jdn inscribed very lightly under the q position. mr. eisenberg. you are familiar with these shells? mr. nicol. yes, sir. and these were given to me by you on the same day i received the projectiles. mr. eisenberg. i hand you commission exhibit , which also consists of--which consists of two expended shells, and i ask you whether you are familiar with them. mr. nicol. yes, sir. these are the specimens, the two shells which i used as standards or tests to compare against the other three fired cartridge cases. mr. eisenberg. and you obtained those from what source? mr. nicol. i obtained these from mr. eisenberg on the th of march here in this office. mr. eisenberg. again for the record, i obtained these shells from the fbi and turned them over directly to mr. nicol, and they have been identified earlier as having been fired by the fbi from exhibit , the rifle found on the sixth floor of the tsbd building. now, mr. nicol, did you examine the shells in exhibits , , and to determine whether they had been fired from the same rifle as fired the shells in exhibit ? mr. nicol. yes; i did. mr. eisenberg. and what was your conclusion? mr. nicol. based upon the similarity of the firing-pin impressions and the breech-block markings, as well as ejector and extractor marks, it is my opinion that all three of the exhibits, , , and , were fired in the same weapon as fired exhibit . mr. eisenberg. mr. nicol, did you take photographs of the various shells under the microscope? mr. nicol. i took photographs of the specimen which i referred to, or was referred to, as q- , which would be this. mr. eisenberg. yes. that is commission exhibit . mr. nicol. these were also taken under the comparison microscope in the same fashion as the other specimens. mr. eisenberg. and these were taken by you? mr. nicol. these were taken by me. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, i ask permission to introduce this as exhibit . mr. dulles. it may be received. (the photograph referred to was marked commission exhibit no. and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. now, you have extra copies of this photograph? mr. nicol. yes; i do. mr. eisenberg. by use of this photograph, could you explain some of the markings on q- , which is illustrated on the left-hand side and which is commission exhibit , and k- , which is on the right-hand side, which is the test cartridge, which led you to the conclusion that both shells were fired from the same rifle? mr. dulles. is one of the shells found on the sixth floor? mr. eisenberg. that's correct. mr. nicol. this was the lone one that was found, i understand. mr. eisenberg. l-o-n-e? mr. nicol. right. mr. eisenberg. again, for the record, what mr. nicol is referring to is that for some reason the shells were grouped into a group of two and a group of one shells by the dallas police, apparently on the basis that two shells were very close together, and the third shell was a little further away. but they were actually all within a quite small area. and this is just an arbitrary grouping. mr. nicol. now, although this compares--is a comparison of q- and k- , commission exhibits and --i'm sorry, --the same would apply to comparable regions on exhibits and . i have placed arrows just for fiduciary marks so we can be looking at the same area. taking the top arrow, the area running across there is rather broad, an eroded or corroded band, a valley. below it is a fairly distinct mark. the two small marks appear below it. and then on the projectile, at the middle arrow, there is a broad flat plane. this plane has an irregular contour, and what i have attempted to do is match a projection at the lower portion of this--you also see that the contour at the top is equivalent, insofar as the spatial area. below, there are at the lower arrow some additional marks. these begin to come to the edge of the primer. what we are looking at here is actually the primer of the cartridge case, and the marks are the breech-block markings as the result of the pressure of the set-back of the shell. i have a sequence of these where the division moves across. do you want to introduce all of them? mr. eisenberg. yes; i think we should mark them in evidence. mr. nicol. all right. this would be the dividing line of the comparison bridge moved over a small portion. you see the entire flat area here, but the match has now shifted over slightly. mr. eisenberg. i am holding two photographs, both marked q- and k- . you took both photographs? mr. nicol. yes, sir. mr. dulles. i wonder if, for clarification, we could take one of those shells and see from what angle the photograph is taken and what is covered in the photograph. i am a little confused. it doesn't make any difference which one. mr. nicol. all right, sir. the area shown between this dark ring would represent the area between these two grooves right here. actually, it is the entire primer. this is the firing-pin impression you are looking at right here. mr. dulles. thank you. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, may i have these admitted, these last photographs, as and ? mr. dulles. and , exhibits as described, will be admitted. (the photographs referred to were marked commission exhibits nos. and and received in evidence.) mr. nicol. now, this again illustrates q- and k- with the position now such that the division of the field is moved over approximately a sixteenth of an inch from the position we looked at previously. and again at the points indicated by the arrow, there are individual characteristics running across the dividing line of the comparison in both the top and bottom region. mr. eisenberg. now, from the position of the firing-pin hole on q- , on this last exhibit, it appears that it is not perfectly aligned with the position of the firing-pin hole on k- , mr. nicol. i am looking at the mark on the right-hand side of q- . mr. nicol. yes. and the purpose for the mis-alignment was in order to show these smaller marks that appear right at the edge of the firing-pin impression. mr. eisenberg. so that at the top the markings on q and k- will not run into each other, as well as on the bottom? mr. nicol. if they are divergent, of course, they will not. if they are parallel, it makes no difference where the position is. now, this is another setting, going to the opposite side of the firing-pin impression, just translating the two cartridge cases the same distance, so that we are now looking at a division at the other side, and a comparison of the breech-block markings on the other side of the two shells. mr. eisenberg. again marked q- and k- . you took this photograph? mr. nicol. i did. mr. eisenberg. may i have permission to mark this ? mr. dulles. it shall be admitted. (the photograph referred to was marked commission exhibit no. and received in evidence.) mr. nicol. looking at the position of the upper arrow, there is a pair of diagonal marks, a small mark immediately below it going down to the lower part of the breech-block markings. there are a series of parallel lines at approximately a -degree angle to the division of the bridge. these were duplicated on both--all of the cartridge cases submitted. mr. dulles. i am not entirely clear in my mind what this demonstrates. mr. nicol. this is the basis upon which i arrived at the conclusion that the two cartridge cases, k- and q- , were fired in the same weapon. actually, we could take a good match, such as shown here, or even this one, and this would be sufficient. all i have done here is repeat this by moving the two bullets, or the two cartridge cases together the same translated distance, and then taking a series of photographs at each particular position. so they represent actually the same thing in each one. mr. dulles. as the hammer comes down on the cartridge, it makes a distinctive mark, is that the idea? mr. nicol. no. i have not compared the firing-pin impression. what this is is the setback of the shell against the breech face, against the rear of the chamber. mr. dulles. the breech face makes an impression on the shell, and that is a distinctive impression? mr. nicol. very definitely, just as individual as a fingerprint. mr. eisenberg. these are two further photographs that you took, mr. nicol? mr. nicol. yes. mr. eisenberg. and they both illustrate the same cartridge case, the same two cartridge cases, the one questioned and the one known? mr. nicol. right. mr. eisenberg. and you have moved the hairline somewhat over to the right? mr. nicol. right. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, may i introduce these as and ? mr. dulles. they shall be admitted. (the photographs described were marked commission exhibits nos. and and were received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, i suggest that in the interest of time, since these two photographs are merely continuations of the first series, we go on to the next. mr. nicol, you have further photographs now. these are marked q- and k- , and these are separate photographs? mr. nicol. same photographs. mr. eisenberg. that is submitted as , mr. chairman. mr. dulles. it shall be admitted. (the photograph referred to was marked commission exhibit no. and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. now, was this photograph taken to show the same point as the previous photographs? mr. nicol. not exactly. this shows the rim of the two cartridge cases. k- is just barely visible. q- represents the other half of the picture. and what we are looking at here in the match relationship, at the point of the arrow, is a patch which represents the extractor riding around the rim of the shell at the time that the cartridge was introduced into the chamber. i might qualify that by saying this: in order to be certain of the exact factor which produced this, i would have had to examine the weapon and conducted some tests to ascertain whether this was the extractor or the bolt pushing the cartridge into the chamber when the mechanism was operated. in any case, the same tool, whether it be the extractor or the bolt, produced this pattern of lines on both the known and the unknown cartridge cases. mr. eisenberg. now, did you find that mark repeated on the cartridge case in other places? mr. nicol. this was repeated on q- and . however, what you may be referring to is another series which was only found on q- . mr. eisenberg. now, could you get to that photograph you just mentioned, q- ? mr. nicol. i photographed the q- in three different positions, which i designated as , , and . mr. dulles. have we identified q- before on the record? mr. eisenberg. yes. q- , i think it is stated on the record, is the equivalent of our commission exhibit . mr. dulles. what is ? mr. eisenberg. is a shell found in the tsbd building. mr. nicol. this is a photograph i took of the head--a portion of the head of q- , or commission exhibit . mr. eisenberg. may i have this admitted as , mr. chairman? mr. dulles. it shall be admitted as . (the photograph described was marked commission exhibit no. and received in evidence.) mr. nicol. it might be well to introduce these, too. these are the same as the ones which are mounted, except that i have cut them for the purpose of matching them. mr. eisenberg. i would like to introduce these two photographs--also taken by you, mr. nicol? mr. nicol. right. mr. eisenberg. which are similar, or taken from this photograph. that will be and , mr. reporter. mr. dulles. exhibits and as described will be admitted. (the photographs described were marked commission exhibits nos. and and were received in evidence.) mr. nicol. perhaps in order to illustrate this we ought to get all the three in, or at least another set, so i can show the match relationship photographically--so that this represents another position of q- , or . mr. eisenberg. and this is a photograph which has not been admitted yet? mr. nicol. no. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, may i have this admitted as , please? mr. dulles. and . (the items referred to were marked commission exhibits nos. and , and received in evidence.) mr. dulles. would you just briefly describe these? mr. nicol. this represents another position of the cartridge case, the head of the case--you are looking at the rim, and this is the portion of the head stamp representing millimeter. this was a . millimeter. you see just a portion of the " ." and what i will be talking about is the marks down against the rim in all of these exhibits. now, this is the same cartridge as represented by these other two photographs, with a slight rotation. now, we have only one which we might have to pass around. but if the photograph is placed in a position corresponding to the arrows, a match of the fine striations, the pairs of broad lines as well as the fine lines, can be seen. the reason that this could not be taken under the comparison microscope is that because of course we cannot divide the cartridge case, so that this had to be done photographically rather than being done on a comparison basis. now, this illustrates the fact that the same operation occurred twice on this particular cartridge case. do you want to introduce the third at this time? mr. eisenberg. yes. this is a photograph taken by you? mr. nicol. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. of the same cartridge case? mr. nicol. same cartridge case in a different position, rotated in a different position. mr. eisenberg. may i have permission to introduce this as , mr. chairman? mr. dulles. it may be admitted. (the photograph described was marked commission exhibit no. and was received in evidence.) mr. nicol. if we compare and in the same general fashion, again we we have a match of the individual characteristics. so that again the same mechanical operation occurred on this cartridge case, , three different times, and in a rather random fashion. they are not the angular relationship between each of these sets of patterns--it is not divisible by any particular number. it is just a random occurrence. associated with this is another mark that occurs on all three of the positions, however not in any particular relationship to the group of lines, and perhaps not as definitive. and it was on the basis of the match of these patterns that i would conclude that this cartridge had been introduced into a chamber at least three times prior to its final firing. so that this would represent, you might say, a practice or dry-run loading the gun and unloading it for purpose of either determining its--how it functions, or whether it was in proper function, or just for practice. mr. eisenberg. just to review this testimony, mr. nicol, this is a mark which occurs on the base of the cartridge case, is that correct? mr. nicol. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. and are you able to say definitely whether it is an extractor or an ejection mark or a chambering mark? mr. nicol. it appears to me to be an extractor mark, although i was not able to identify this as similar to any extractor mark or any other marks on either q- or or any of the tests, . mr. eisenberg. did extractor marks appear on those other cartridge cases? mr. nicol. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. and when you say you were not able to identify them, do you mean that they were not identical to or---- mr. nicol. they were absent. mr. eisenberg. they were absent? mr. nicol. absent in all the other cases. mr. eisenberg. so that extractor marks did not appear in the other cases? mr. nicol. extractor marks appeared, but these marks did not appear. mr. eisenberg. well, two sets of extractor marks have been put on---- mr. nicol. this would be possible--perhaps the violence with which the weapon was activated in this particular incident--or it might be the result of something not associated with the internal mechanism of the weapon, but might be the result of the charger or the cartridge carrier that is introduced into--the way the cartridges are introduced into the magazine. mr. eisenberg. now, what led you to the conclusion that this was an extractor mark? mr. nicol. only that it appears at the location of the cartridge case where an extractor mark would normally be found. that is to say, this would be the mark where the extractor strikes the edge of the case, and then springs around as the cartridge is driven into the chamber. mr. eisenberg. but you could not definitely say whether it is an extractor mark produced by the rifle through which the test bullets you were given were fired? mr. nicol. no, sir; i could not. mr. eisenberg. now, i am not quite clear as to why another set of marks should have appeared on the other cases, which you also think are extractor marks. mr. nicol. i cannot say that this could not have been produced by another gun. mr. eisenberg. that might have been produced by another gun? mr. nicol. yes. mr. eisenberg. but it was produced by the same source, whether it was this gun or another gun, three different times? mr. nicol. correct. mr. eisenberg. somebody had done one operation, in your opinion, with this cartridge at three different times? mr. nicol. right. mr. eisenberg. now, just to set this in context, i have taken the bolt from commission exhibit , the rifle found on the sixth floor, and could you show the commission what the extractor is on this bolt? mr. nicol. the extractor is this semicircular piece extending back in the bolt, and its purpose is to withdraw the cartridge from the chamber at the time that the bolt is drawn back. it rides in the extractor groove, which is machined in the head of the cartridge case. at the time that the weapon is loaded, oftentimes this springs around, it first contacts the rim of the cartridge case, and then springs around the rim of the cartridge and produces marks such as these, or marks such as i have illustrated on the three sets. mr. eisenberg. now, is it possible that the reason the marks were present on this cartridge but not on the other cartridge case--on this cartridge case but not on the other cartridge cases you examined--is because these marks were produced by dry firing as opposed to actual firing? mr. nicol. this is possible. the weight of the empty shell would be different of course from one which had a projectile in it, so that its dynamics might be different, and it might produce a different mark--although in the absence of accessibility of the weapon, or the absence of these marks on the tests, i really am unable to say what is the precise origin of those marks, except to speculate that they are probably from the extractor, and that the second mark that appears here, which i have indicated with a similar number, is probably an ejector mark. now, this, i might add, is a different type of ejector mark than the mark found on the rim from the normal firing of these tests and the evidence cartridges. mr. eisenberg. now, you stated that another mark appeared in all three--associated in juxtaposition with the three marks you have been describing? mr. nicol. yes; and in the same angular relationship to a radii through the center of the head. mr. eisenberg. now, again, if it is an ejector mark, might the difference have been caused by the fact that it may have been associated with a dry firing rather than an actual firing? mr. nicol. that might be possible. mr. eisenberg. do you think a person would apply a different bolt pressure in a dry firing as opposed to an actual firing? mr. nicol. well, since this is a manually operated weapon, it is quite possible that no two operations are done with exactly the same force. however, with reasonable reproduceability, all these marks appear to the same depth and to the same extent, so that it would appear that whatever produced them operated in identically the same fashion. mr. eisenberg. do you have anything you would like to add to your testimony on the rifle bullets or the rifle cartridge cases, mr. nicol? mr. nicol. no, sir; i don't think so. mr. eisenberg. if there are no further questions on that particular subject, i will proceed to the tippit bullets and cartridge cases. mr. dulles. off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. dulles. back on the record. mr. eisenberg. i hand you, mr. nicol, a group of four cartridge cases marked commission exhibit , which, for the record, are cartridge cases found in the area of the tippit crime scene, and ask you whether you are familiar with those cartridge cases? mr. nicol. yes, sir; these are cartridge cases which were given to me on march th by mr. eisenberg. mr. eisenberg. they have your mark on them? mr. nicol. no; i made notes of the fbi designations, and these are the same--they have the jh and the ck and rf and the q designations that were placed on there by the fbi. mr. eisenberg. those initials are initials apparently of examining agents? mr. nicol. i presume so. mr. eisenberg. i hand you commission exhibit and ask you whether you are familiar with the cartridge cases contained in that exhibit? mr. nicol. yes; these are two fired cartridge cases designated k- by the fbi and marked with their identification marks--ck, jh, and rf. mr. eisenberg. now, for the record, these cartridge cases were earlier identified as having been fired by the fbi in commission exhibit no. , the revolver believed to have been used to kill officer tippit. also for the record, i obtained these cartridge cases, both exhibit , which are test cases, and exhibit , which are cases from the murder scene, from the fbi, and transmitted them directly to mr. nicol for his examination. mr. nicol, did you examine the cartridge cases in exhibit to determine whether they had been fired from the weapon in which the cartridge cases in exhibit had been fired? mr. nicol. yes, sir; i did. mr. eisenberg. and can you give us your conclusions? mr. nicol. it is my opinion, based upon the similarity of class and individual characteristics, that the four cartridge cases in were fired in the same weapon as produced the cartridge cases in . mr. eisenberg. mr. nicol, did you take photographs of the comparisons? mr. nicol. no, sir; i did not. mr. eisenberg. however, you are certain in your own mind of the identification? mr. nicol. yes; the marks on the firing pin particularly were very definitive. apparently this firing pin had been subjected to some rather severe abuse, and there were numerous small and large striations which could be matched up very easily. mr. dulles. what do you mean by severe abuse? mr. nicol. it appeared as though it had either been touched up with a file, or in the initial manufacture the finishing operation was rather crude. it was not what i would consider a well-finished firing pin. mr. eisenberg. mr. nicol, just to review your earlier testimony, as i recall you stated that you do not use photographs to make your identification, and usually do not testify with photographs? mr. nicol. that's correct. mr. eisenberg. but that the other photographs were made as an accommodation to us, at my request, so that the commission could see them? mr. nicol. the material i am just talking about could well have been illustrated. however, i ran out of time. mr. eisenberg. mr. nicol, finally i hand you a group of four bullets marked commission exhibits , , , and , which i state for the record were recovered from the body of officer tippit, and a group of two bullets marked commission exhibit , which i state for the record were fired by the fbi through the revolver, commission exhibit . i ask you whether you are familiar with this group of exhibits. mr. nicol. these two are fired lead projectiles that were designated by the fbi as k- , companions to the tests in . mr. eisenberg. when you say companions, you mean they were given to you---- mr. nicol. they were given to me simultaneously in an envelope, at that time wrapped in cotton. mr. eisenberg. and the other exhibits? mr. nicol. this was the projectile designated by the fbi, i believe, as q- . this is a . special projectile designated q- . that would correspond to commission exhibit . mr. eisenberg. and the item you just identified? mr. nicol. q- would correspond with . this is q- , corresponding to exhibit . this is q- , corresponding to exhibit . mr. eisenberg. are you familiar with all of those? mr. nicol. yes; i have seen and examined all of these. mr. eisenberg. did you examine exhibits through to determine whether they have been fired from the same weapon as fired ? mr. nicol. yes; i did. mr. eisenberg. what was your conclusion? mr. nicol. due to mutilation, i was not able to determine whether , , and were fired in the same weapon. there were similarity of class characteristics--that is to say, there is nothing evident that would exclude the weapon. however, due to mutilation and apparent variance between the size of the barrel and the size of the projectile, the reproduction of individual characteristics was not good, and therefore i was unable to arrive at a conclusion beyond that of saying that the few lines that were found would indicate a modest possibility. but i would not by any means say that i could be positive. however, on specimen --i'm sorry-- , which i have designated as q- , i found sufficient individual characteristics to lead me to the conclusion that that projectile was fired in the same weapon that fired the projectiles in . mr. eisenberg. that is to the exclusion of all other weapons? mr. nicol. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. by the way, on the cartridge cases, that was also to the exclusion of all other weapons? mr. nicol. correct. mr. eisenberg. did you take a photograph of this identified missile? mr. nicol. i took a photograph of one position, and that is shown here as a comparison of k- and what i designated as q- . mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, may i have this admitted? that would be . (the item described was marked commission exhibit no. and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. these arrows, mr. nicol, can you explain why they are different? mr. nicol. this was one i made up originally and then decided that the illustration would be ample with one arrow in that one position. mr. dulles. the one that is being admitted is the one-arrow photograph. mr. eisenberg. the arrows are placed on mechanically after the photograph is developed? mr. nicol. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. and therefore it can vary? mr. nicol. yes. this is not a part of the photographic process. mr. eisenberg. what is the magnification here, mr. nicol? mr. nicol. it would be pretty close to to diameters. i cannot measure exactly the magnification. mr. nicol. this illustrates some of the lines, not all of them, that i saw on a comparison of and k- . at the position of the arrow, you are looking at the top of the groove; adjacent to it in the lower portion is a land impression. and on that shoulder there are approximately five or six matching lines. they are very fine striations. these would be indicative of the fact that the same portion of the barrel had ridden on both projectiles. mr. eisenberg. well, now, there seems to be significantly less markings here than on the bullets which were seen earlier, which had come from the rifle. does that same condition pertain when the bullet is viewed under the microscope? mr. nicol. yes. of course, we are dealing with two different types of ammunition. one is a lead projectile, and the other is a metal-case projectile. and the ability of the metal-case projectile to pick up and retain fine striations, even in spite of distortion and mutilation, far exceeds what the lead projectile will do. furthermore, the lead being a soft and low-melting-point material is more subject to erosion of hot gases. so that there are many more variables in the reproduction in terms of a lead projectile as over against a metal-case projectile. mr. eisenberg. you found enough similarities to satisfy yourself that there is an identification here? mr. nicol. i am satisfied that the two projectiles came from the same weapon. mr. eisenberg. now, we have received testimony that the weapon which is marked commission exhibit was rechambered but not rebarreled, so that a . special bullet fired through the barrel would be slightly undersized. mr. nicol. of course i have not had a chance to examine the weapon. but on the information that you gave me, this was originally manufactured for english ammunition, and has been rechambered for american domestic ammunition, is that correct? mr. eisenberg. yes. mr. nicol. the undersized bullet going through an oversized barrel of course presents some serious identification problems, because it does not go through with the same conformity as a projectile going through the proper-sized barrel, so that it is apt to, you might say, skip and bear more on one surface than on another in subsequent firings, so that the identification is made more complex and it is expected that more dissimilarities occur under those circumstances. however, at the points where it did reproduce at the land edges, as shown in this photograph, i found sufficient lines of identification to lead me to the conclusion that they had both been fired in the same weapon. mr. eisenberg. is it consistent with the markings you found on this bullet that it had been fired in a slightly oversized barrel? mr. nicol. slight. however, due to the malleability of lead, it does accommodate itself more than a metal-case projectile, and therefore the evidence of being fired in an oversized barrel is not as pronounced as it would be if it were fired, let's say, a . - fired in a . special, which would be possible, and would give very distinct evidence of the difference in the size of the bullet and the barrel. however, in neither case is an identification completely precluded. what is necessary is that tests are available which have borne on the same surface. if this is true, and if the marks have not been mutilated, then an identification is still possible. mr. eisenberg. when you say the bullet will accommodate itself, you mean it will expand to fill out all or part of the lands and grooves? mr. nicol. yes. actually, with the pressure on the base and the inertia of the bullet, it is in a sense shorter and expanded in diameter to accommodate for the larger-sized barrel. mr. eisenberg. now, i was not clear whether you drew any conclusion on the other three bullets--that is, did you definitely--find yourself definitely unable to identify those bullets, or did you reach a "probable" conclusion? mr. nicol. i would say there was nothing, no major marks to preclude it. however, i was unable to find what would satisfy me to say that it positively came from that particular weapon. so that i would place it in the category of bullets which could have come from this particular weapon, but not to the exclusion of all others. mr. eisenberg. is this short of the "probable" category in which you placed the walker bullets, or is it in the same category? mr. nicol. this is in a gray area between black and white, and it is somewhat nebulous to pin it down to a precise percentage dimension. mr. eisenberg. mr. nicol, were you able to identify the type of bullet which is involved in each of these four exhibits--that is, the manufacturer of , , , and ? mr. nicol. no; i did not attempt this, because i did not have an adequate reference collection against which to make the comparison. mr. eisenberg. i do not have any further questions, mr. chairman. the chairman. i have no questions. mr. rhyne. no questions. mr. eisenberg. mr. nicol, do you have anything you would like to add before we conclude? mr. nicol. no; i think i have covered everything. mr. dulles. we want to thank you very much. mr. eisenberg. there is one further question i have. when you made your examination, were you aware of the conclusions which any other examining agent or body had come to? mr. nicol. no. i of course was aware of the fact that tests were conducted. however, i was not aware either through the press or any other media as to the conclusions. this represents my own personal conclusions without benefit of any other knowledge. mr. eisenberg. and do you know at this point what any other body has come to in the way of conclusions? mr. nicol. no, sir. mr. dulles. i wonder if you would be willing to give us your views as to the effectiveness of paraffin tests? mr. nicol. i have used the paraffin test both in case work and in experiments, as an investigative aid. however, i have a very low level of confidence in it--either as a positive or negative, as far as that's concerned. experimentally, as the literature well demonstrates, it is possible to fire a gun and get nothing on the hands. it is also possible to take people at random off the street and test them with the reagent which is not specific for powder and find all kinds of reactions. and while there are some "experts" who--and i say that with quotes--who allege that they can differentiate one product from another, actually the end product of the oxidation of diphenylamine is a definite quinoid structure, which has only one blue color, and i am not sure how they make this differentiation. i cannot do it. i have used it as an investigative aid with positive results if and when i find in the cast a particle of powder that i can definitely identify as powder--not just simply the reaction, but something i can take out, put it under the microscope and i can say this is a particle of powder. then i will say that this hand has been in the presence of the discharge of a weapon. mr. dulles. you do not need a paraffin test for that, do you? mr. nicol. i don't think so. i think if you actually examine the subject's hands, you probably can find that. although as a rule in the laboratory we do not see the subject, and so this is the medium by which we get a look at the surface of the hand. sometime ago in los angeles a series of experiments was conducted whereby--and this was on shooting victims, including only those where they could be certain by other investigative means as to the exact status of the case. one of the technicians placed the paraffin on the hand. this was presented to the other technician who had no knowledge of the case whatsoever. and that i guess must have included both the controls of non-shooting victims as well as shooting victims. and the net result was if this fellow almost flipped a coin he could be in the ball park as far as whether or not this person had actually fired a weapon. it just is not particularly accurate. i might go further to say that there have been several cases in which i would say a fair amount of injustice was done to the defendant or the suspect in the case simply because people have gone overboard on the application of the paraffin test. it is one of these areas in which everyone would like a nice test. it would certainly be beneficial. but it is not one in which a competent technician places much confidence. mr. dulles. i understand that pipe smokers are quite likely to get caught on these, on these tests. mr. nicol. or someone who strikes a kitchen match, or in the spring, a man fertilizing his lawn. a man working in the meatpacking industry, where they preserve meats with nitrates, might also have difficulties. certain of the common things, such as urine, i think can be discounted, because the diffused pattern can be easily determined. but as far as pinpoints of striking a match, i could not differentiate one from the other. mr. dulles. thank you very much. mr. nicol. i realize this doesn't help. the chairman. mr. nicol, thank you very much, sir, for helping us. you have been very helpful. mr. nicol. thank you, sir. mr. dulles. we will recess at this time until o'clock tomorrow morning. (whereupon, at : p.m., the president's commission recessed.) transcriber's notes: punctuation and spelling were made consistent when a predominant preference was found in this book; otherwise they were not changed. misspellings in quoted evidence not changed; misspellings that could be due to mispronunciations were not changed. some simple typographical errors were corrected. inconsistent hyphenation of compound words retained. ambiguous end-of-line hyphens retained. occasional uses of "mr." for "mrs." and of "mrs." for "mr." corrected. dubious repeated words, (e.g., "what took place by way of of conversation?") retained. several unbalanced quotation marks not remedied. occasional periods that should be question marks not changed. occasional periods that should be commas, and commas that should be periods, were changed only when they clearly had been misprinted (at the end of a paragraph or following a speaker's name in small-caps at the beginning of a line). some commas and semi-colons were printed so faintly that they appear to be periods or colons: some were found and corrected, but some almost certainly remain. the index and illustrated exhibits volumes of this series may not be available at project gutenberg. page : "where is their main office?" was misprinted as "there"; corrected here. page : "no. i also visited my brother, in yellow springs, ohio." was misprinted as "visited by"; corrected here. page : the name "james p. hasty" should be "james p. hosty"; not changed here. page : misspelling in "it was unfortun that" not changed. page : misspellings in "the stuip cuban consule was at fault" not changed. page : misspelling in "was a rather lengthly one?" not changed. page : "otherway" not changed. page : "did she evidence any" was misprinted as "he"; corrected here. page : possible missing word in "of the randle home looking west fifth street?" page : "(commission exhibits nos. and through were received in evidence.)" " " was misprinted as " " but printed correctly two lines earlier; corrected here. page : "and improved my ability to converse" misprinted as "by ability"; corrected here. page : "mr. berlin. well, sir, it is on one of your interviews here." was misprinted as "mr. brennan."; corrected here. page : "were certain books--if you" probably should be "where"; not changed. page : "in other words, there is a little difference in your memory there on this." was printed as part of a statement by mr. brennan, but may have been said by someone else. page : "mr. jarman. after the third shot was fired i would say it was about a minute." was printed as "mr. ball"; corrected here. page : the measurement in "this was a - by -cm defect" probably was misprinted; not changed here. page : "whether it was an entrance wound or an exit wound," should end with a question mark instead of a comma. page : "so what when the shot was fired" probably should be "so that when". page : "would that trend to improve the shooter's marksmanship?" probably should be "tend". page : "this the cartridge case from the building, exhibit ." probably should be "this is the". page : "and then it was returned november , ." incorrect date, should be no earlier than november , . page : "so in you opinion" should be "your". page : "mr. cunningham. yes, sir; well--these would be very difficult--in other" is an incomplete sentence. page : "a small sample was taken off the noise" probably should be "nose". page : "the cast of both hand" was printed that way. www.history-matters.com. transcriber's note: stylized "s", "u", and "v" symbols are denoted as =s=, =u=, and =v=. italicized words are denoted with _underscores_. investigation of the assassination of president john f. kennedy hearings before the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy pursuant to executive order , an executive order creating a commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of the late president john f. kennedy and the subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and s.j. res. , th congress, a concurrent resolution conferring upon the commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas _volume_ iv united states government printing office washington, d.c. u.s. government printing office, washington: for sale in complete sets by the superintendent of documents, u.s. government printing office washington, d.c., president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy chief justice earl warren, _chairman_ senator richard b. russell senator john sherman cooper representative hale boggs representative gerald r. ford mr. allen w. dulles mr. john j. mccloy j. lee rankin, _general counsel_ _assistant counsel_ francis w. h. adams joseph a. ball david w. belin william t. coleman, jr. melvin aron eisenberg burt w. griffin leon d. hubert, jr. albert e. jenner, jr. wesley j. liebeler norman redlich w. david slawson arlen specter samuel a. stern howard p. willens[a] [a] mr. willens also acted as liaison between the commission and the department of justice. _staff members_ phillip barson edward a. conroy john hart ely alfred goldberg murray j. laulicht arthur marmor richard m. mosk john j. o'brien stuart pollak alfredda scobey charles n. shaffer, jr. biographical information on the commissioners and the staff can be found in the commission's _report_. preface the testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume iv: sebastian f. latona, a fingerprint expert with the federal bureau of investigation; arthur mandella, a fingerprint expert with the new york city police department; paul morgan stombaugh, a hair and fiber expert with the federal bureau of investigation; james c. cadigan, a questioned document examiner with the federal bureau of investigation; drs. robert roeder shaw and charles francis gregory, who attended governor connally at parkland hospital; governor and mrs. john bowden connally, jr.; jesse edward curry, chief, dallas police department; capt. j. w. fritz and lts. t. l. baker and j. c. day of the dallas police department, who participated in the investigation of the assassination; lyndal l. shaneyfelt, a photography expert with the federal bureau of investigation; robert inman bouck, special agent in charge of the protective research section of the secret service; robert carswell, special assistant to the secretary of the treasury; winston g. lawson, a secret service agent who worked on advance preparations for the president's trip to dallas; alwyn cole, a questioned document examiner with the treasury department; and john w. fain, john lester quigley, and james patrick hosty, jr., agents of the federal bureau of investigation who interviewed oswald, or people connected with him, at various times during the period between oswald's return from russia in and the assassination. contents page preface v testimony of-- sebastian f. latona arthur mandella, accompanied by joseph a. mooney paul morgan stombaugh james c. cadigan robert roeder shaw charles francis gregory gov. john bowden connally, jr mrs. john bowden connally, jr jesse edward curry j. w. fritz , t. l. baker j. c. day lyndal l. shaneyfelt robert inman bouck , robert carswell winston g. lawson, accompanied by fred b. smith alwyn cole john w. fain john lester quigley james patrick hosty, jr commission exhibits introduced exhibit no.: page -a -a -a -b -c -a -b -a -b -c -a -b -c -a hearings before the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy _thursday, april , _ testimony of sebastian f. latona and arthur mandella the president's commission met at a.m. on april , , at maryland avenue ne., washington, d.c. present were chief justice earl warren, chairman; representative hale boggs, representative gerald r. ford, and mr. allen w. dulles, members. also present were melvin aron eisenberg, assistant counsel; norman redlich, assistant counsel; samuel a. stern, assistant counsel; and charles murray and charles rhyne, observers. testimony of sebastian f. latona the chairman. the commission will be in order. mr. latona, the purpose of today's hearing is to take your testimony and that of arthur mandella. mr. mandella is a fingerprint expert from the new york city police department. we are asking both of you to give technical information to the commission. will you raise your right hand and be sworn? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. latona. i do. the chairman. you may be seated. mr. eisenberg will conduct the examination. mr. eisenberg. mr. latona, could you state your full name and give us your position? mr. latona. my full name is sebastian francis latona. i am the supervisor of the latent fingerprint section of the identification division of the federal bureau of investigation. mr. eisenberg. what is your education, mr. latona? mr. latona. i attended columbia university school of law, where i received degrees of ll.b., ll.m., m.p.l. mr. eisenberg. and could you briefly outline your qualifications as a fingerprint expert? mr. latona. well, i have been with the federal bureau of investigation for a little more than years. i started in the identification division as a student fingerprint classifier, and since that time i have worked myself up into where i am now supervisor of the latent fingerprint section. mr. eisenberg. could you approximate the number of fingerprint examinations you have made? mr. latona. frankly, no. there have been so many in that time that i would not be able to give even a good guess. mr. eisenberg. would the figure run in the thousands or hundreds? mr. latona. so far as comparisons are concerned, in the millions. mr. eisenberg. have you testified in court? mr. latona. i have testified in federal courts, state courts, commissioners' hearings, military courts, and at deportation proceedings. mr. eisenberg. mr. chief justice, i ask that this witness be accepted as an expert. the chairman. the witness is qualified. mr. eisenberg. mr. latona, could you briefly outline for us the theory of fingerprint identification? mr. latona. the principle of fingerprint identification is based on the fact primarily that the ridge formations that appear on the hands and on the soles of the feet actually are created approximately to months before birth, on the unborn child, and they remain constant in the same position in which they are formed until the person is dead and the body is consumed by decomposition. secondly, the fact that no two people, or no two fingers of the same person, have the same arrangement of these ridge formations, either on the fingers, the palms, or the soles and toes of the feet. plus the fact that during the lifetime of a person this ridge formation does not change, it remains constant--from the time it is formed until actual destruction, either caused by voluntary or involuntary means, or upon the death of the body and decomposition. mr. eisenberg. mr. latona, do you have any personal experience indicating the uniqueness of fingerprints? mr. latona. yes; i do. my experience is based primarily upon the work which i have actually done in connection with my work with the fbi. i have had the experience of working on one case in particular in which millions of comparisons were actually and literally made with a small portion of a fingerprint which was left on a piece of evidence in connection with this particular case, which was a kidnapping case. this fragmentary latent print which we developed consisted of approximately seven to eight points. most fingerprints will have in them an average roughly of from to about . this fragmentary latent print was compared with literally millions of single impressions for the purpose of trying to effect an identification. and we were unable, over a lengthy period while we were making these millions of comparisons, not able to identify these few fragmentary points. the important thing is simply this; that on the basis of that fragmentary print, it was not possible to determine even the type of pattern that the impression was. accordingly, we had to compare it with all types of fingerprint patterns, of which there are really four basic types--the arch, tented arch, loop, and whorl. and we are still making comparisons in that case, and we have not been able to identify these few points. now, that means simply this--that the theory that we are going on an assumption that people do not have the same fingerprints--and we find it not necessary to compare, say for example, a loop pattern with a whorl pattern, and as there is a possibility that, it is contended by some of these so-called authorities, that maybe the points that you find in a loop may be found in the same arrangement in a whorl--is not true. i think that that case, a practical case we have actually worked on, disproves that theory so strongly in my mind that i am convinced that no two people can possibly have the same fingerprints. mr. eisenberg. that is, you had a print with seven points, and these same seven points appeared in none of the millions---- mr. latona. of the millions that we actually compared over a period--well, since . you may recall the case. it was the matson kidnapping case out in tacoma, wash. that is one of only three major kidnapping cases the fbi has not yet solved. mr. eisenberg. are palmprints as unique as fingerprints? mr. latona. yes; palmprints are. they are not as useful for purposes of setting up a file in order to conduct searches, for the simple reason that there are not as many variations of patterns occurring with any frequency in the palms as occur on the tips of the fingers. that is primarily why the fingertips are used--because you have digits, and there is a possibility of finding variations of the four basic pattern types which can be additionally subdivided by utilizing certain focal points which occur in those particular patterns, which enable us to actually subdivide our files into millions of groups. accordingly, when you make a search in the fingerprint file, it can be reduced actually to a matter of minutes, whereas to attempt to set up a palmprint file to the extent of the size of the fingerprint file we have in the fbi would be a practical impossibility, much less a waste of time. the chairman. approximately how many fingerprints do you have these days? mr. latona. at the present time, we have the fingerprints of more than million people, and they are subdivided in this fashion: we have two main files; we have the criminal files and we have what are referred to as civil files. as the names imply, in the criminal files are the fingerprints of criminals, people who have had a prior criminal record or whose fingerprints have been received in connection with an investigation or interrogation for the commission of a crime. in that file we have approximately million sets of fingerprint cards, representing approximately million people. in our civil files, in which are filed the fingerprints of the various types of applicants, service personnel and the like, we have fingerprints of approximately - / million people. mr. eisenberg. returning to palmprints, then, as i understand your testimony, they are not as good as fingerprints for purposes of classification, but they are equally good for purposes of identification? mr. latona. for purposes of identification, i feel that the identifications effected are just as absolute as are those of fingerprints. mr. eisenberg. are experts unanimous in this opinion, mr. latona? mr. latona. as far as i know, yes. mr. eisenberg. now, mr. latona, i hand to you an object which i will describe for the record as being apparently a brown, homemade-type of paper bag, and which i will also describe for the record as having been found on the sixth floor of the texas school book depository building near the window, the easternmost window, on the south face of that floor. i ask you whether you are familiar with this paper bag? mr. latona. yes, i am. this is a piece of brown wrapping paper that we have referred to as a brown paper bag, which was referred to me for purposes of processing for latent prints. mr. eisenberg. and you examined that for latent prints? mr. latona. yes; i did. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, may i have this admitted into evidence as commission exhibit ? the chairman. it may be admitted. (the item referred to was marked commission exhibit no. and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. mr. latona, do your notes show when you received this paper bag? mr. latona. i received this paper bag on the morning of november , . mr. eisenberg. and when did you conduct your examination? mr. latona. i conducted my examination on that same day. mr. eisenberg. when you had received it, could you tell whether any previous examination had been conducted on it? mr. latona. when i received this exhibit, , the brown wrapper, it had been treated with black dusting powder, black fingerprint powder. there was nothing visible in the way of any latent prints on there at that particular time. mr. eisenberg. were you informed whether any fingerprints had been developed by means of the fingerprint powder? mr. latona. no; i determined that by simply examining the wrapper at that particular time. mr. eisenberg. could you briefly describe the powder process? mr. latona. the powdering process is merely the utilizing of a fingerprint powder which is applied to any particular surface for purposes of developing any latent prints which may be on such a surface. now, we use powder in the fbi only on objects which have a hard, smooth, nonabsorbent finish, such as glass, tile, various types of highly polished metals, and the like. in the fbi we do not use powder on paper, cardboard, unfinished wood, or various types of cloth. the reason is that the materials are absorbent. accordingly, when any finger which has on it perspiration or sweat comes in contact with an absorbent material, the print starts to become absorbed into the surface. accordingly, when an effort is made to develop latent prints by the use of a powder, if the surface is dry, the powder will not adhere. on the other hand, where the surface is a hard and smooth object, with a nonabsorbent material, the perspiration or sweat which may have some oil in it at that time may remain there as moisture. accordingly, when the dry powder is brushed across it, the moisture in the print will retain the powder giving an outline of the impression itself. these powders come in various colors. we utilize a black and a gray. the black powder is used on objects which are white or light to give a resulting contrast of a black print on a white background. we use the gray powder on objects which are black or dark in order to give you a resulting contrast of a white print on a dark or black background. mr. eisenberg. now, mr. latona, how did you proceed to conduct your examination for fingerprints on this object? mr. latona. well, an effort was made to remove as much of the powder as possible. and then this was subjected to what is known as the iodine-fuming method, which simply means flowing iodine fumes, which are developed by what is known as an iodine-fuming gun--it is a very simple affair, in which there are a couple of tubes attached to each other, having in one of them iodine crystals. and by simply blowing through one end, you get iodine fumes. the iodine fumes are brought in as close contact to the surface as possible. and if there are any prints which contain certain fatty material or protein material, the iodine fumes simply discolor it to a sort of brownish color. and of course such prints as are developed are photographed for record purposes. that was done in this case here, but no latent prints were developed. the next step then was to try an additional method, by chemicals. this was subsequently processed by a -percent solution of silver nitrate. the processing with silver nitrate resulted in developing two latent prints. one is what we call a latent palmprint, and the other is what we call a latent fingerprint. mr. eisenberg. can you briefly explain the action of the silver nitrate? mr. latona. silver nitrate solution in itself is colorless, and it reacts with the sodium chloride, which is ordinary salt which is found in the perspiration or sweat which is exuded by the sweat pores. this material covers the fingers. when it touches a surface such as an absorbent material, like paper, it leaves an outline on the paper. when this salt material, which is left by the fingers on the paper, is immersed in the silver nitrate solution, there is a combining, an immediate combining of--the elements themselves will break down, and they recombine into silver chloride and sodium nitrate. we know that silver is sensitive to light. so that material, after it has been treated with the silver nitrate solution, is placed under a strong light. we utilize a carbon arc lamp, which has considerable ultraviolet light in it. and it will immediately start to discolor the specimen. wherever there is any salt material, it will discolor it, much more so than the rest of the object, and show exactly where the latent prints have been developed. it is simply a reaction of the silver nitrate with the sodium chloride. that is all it is. mr. eisenberg. do you frequently find that the silver nitrate develops a print in a paper object which the iodine fuming cannot develop? mr. latona. yes; i would say that is true, considerably so. we have more success with silver nitrate than we do with the iodine fumes. the reason we use both is because of the fact that this material which is exuded by the fingers may fall into one of two main types--protein material and salt material. the iodine fumes will develop protein material. silver nitrate will develop the salt material. the reason we use both is because we do not know what was in the subject's fingers or hands or feet. accordingly, to insure complete coverage, we use both methods. and we use them in that sequence. the iodine first, then the silver nitrate. the iodine is used first because the iodine simply causes a temporary physical change. it will discolor, and then the fumes, upon being left in the open air, will disappear, and then the color will dissolve. silver nitrate, on the other hand, causes a chemical change and it will permanently affect the change. so if we were to use the silver nitrate process first, then we could not use the iodine fumes. on occasion we have developed fingerprints and palmprints with iodine fumes which failed to develop with the silver nitrate and vice versa. mr. eisenberg. now, mr. latona, looking at that bag i see that almost all of it is an extremely dark brown color, except that there are patches of a lighter brown, a manila-paper brown. could you explain why there are these two colors on the bag? mr. latona. yes. the dark portions of the paper bag are where the silver nitrate has taken effect. and the light portions of the bag are where we did not process the bag at that time, because additional examinations were to be made, and we did not wish the object to lose its identity as to what it may have been used for. certain chemical tests were to be made after we finished with it. and we felt that the small section that was left in itself would not interfere with the general overall examination of the bag itself. mr. eisenberg. that is, the small section of light brown corresponds to the color which the bag had when you received it? mr. latona. that is the natural color of the wrapper at the time we received it. mr. eisenberg. and the remaining color is caused by the silver nitrate process? mr. latona. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. does paper normally turn this dark brown color when treated by silver nitrate? mr. latona. yes; it does. it will get darker, too, as time goes on and it is affected by light. mr. eisenberg. mr. latona, does the silver nitrate process permanently fix the print into the paper? mr. latona. permanent in the sense that the print by itself will not disappear. now, it can be removed, or the stains could be removed chemically, by the placing of the object into a percent solution of mercuric nitrate, which will remove the stains and in addition will remove the prints. but the prints by themselves, if nothing is done to it, will simply continue to grow darker and eventually the whole specimen will lose its complete identity. the chairman. may i ask a question here? so i understand from that that this particular document that you are looking at, or this bag, will continue to get darker as time goes on? mr. latona. yes; it will. the chairman. from this date? mr. latona. that's right. mr. eisenberg. returning to the prints themselves, you stated i believe that you found a palmprint and a fingerprint on this paper bag? mr. latona. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. did you find any other prints? mr. latona. no; no other prints that we term of value in the sense that i felt that they could be identified or that a conclusion could be reached that they were not identical with the fingerprints or palmprints of some other person. mr. eisenberg. did you attempt to identify the palmprint and fingerprint? mr. latona. the ones that i developed; yes. mr. eisenberg. were you able to identify these prints? mr. latona. i--the ones i developed, i did identify. mr. eisenberg. whose prints did you find them to be? mr. latona. they were identified as a fingerprint and a palmprint of lee harvey oswald. mr. eisenberg. now, mr. latona, what known sample of lee harvey oswald's prints, finger and palm, did you use in making this identification? mr. latona. the known samples i used were the ones forwarded by our office at dallas, the dallas office. mr. eisenberg. do you have those with you? mr. latona. i do. mr. eisenberg. mr. latona, you have handed me three cards, one of which appears to be a standard fingerprint card, and the other two of which appear to be prints of the palms of an individual. all these cards are marked "lee harvey oswald." are these the cards which you received from your dallas office which you just described as being the prints of lee harvey oswald? mr. latona. they are. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, i would like these admitted into evidence as , , and . i would like the standard fingerprint card, -print card, admitted as . the chairman. it will be admitted. (the item referred to was marked commission exhibit no. and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. i would like the card which is--which appears to be the left palm admitted as . the chairman. it will be admitted. (the item referred to was marked commission exhibit no. and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. i would like the card which is the right palm admitted as . the chairman. that may be admitted. (the item referred to was marked commission exhibit no. and received in evidence.) mr. latona. may i ask a question, please? would it be possible to accept copies instead of the originals? the chairman. they are identical? mr. latona. these are true and faithful reproductions of the originals which mr. eisenberg has. the chairman. the originals, then, may be withdrawn, and the copies substituted for them. mr. eisenberg. shall i mark those , , and in the same manner as the originals? the chairman. exactly. mr. eisenberg. mr. latona, do you know how the known samples we have just marked , , and were obtained? mr. latona. how they were obtained? mr. eisenberg. yes. can you tell the process used in obtaining them? mr. latona. you mean in recording the impressions? mr. eisenberg. yes, sir. mr. latona. fingerprints are recorded by the use of a printer's ink, heavy black ink, which is first placed on a smooth surface, such as glass or metal, and it is rolled out in a smooth, even film. then the subject's fingers are brought in contact with the plate by a rolling process, rolling the finger from one complete side to the other complete side, in order to coat the finger with an even film of this heavy ink. then the finger is brought in contact with a standard fingerprint card and the finger again is rolled from one complete side to the opposite side in order to record in complete detail all of the ridge formation which occurs on the tip of the finger, or the first joint, which is under the nail. mr. eisenberg. did you received a second submission of known prints? mr. latona. yes; we did. mr. eisenberg. when did you receive those? mr. latona. those were received in the identification division on november , . mr. eisenberg. did this include two palms, or was this simply---- mr. latona. no; it did not. it was simply a fingerprint card. mr. eisenberg. do you know why the second submission was made? mr. latona. the second submission was made, i believe, in order to advise us formally that the subject, lee harvey oswald, had been killed, and it has the notation on the back that he was shot and killed - - while being transferred in custody. mr. eisenberg. and did you examine that second submission? mr. latona. yes, i did. mr. eisenberg. and is it in all respects identical to the first? mr. latona. the fingerprints appearing on this card are exactly the same as those that appear on the card which you have previously referred to as commission exhibit . mr. eisenberg. mr. latona, do you have a copy of the second submission? mr. latona. no; i do not. mr. eisenberg. i wonder whether you could supply one to us at a later date. mr. latona. yes; i could. if you feel it necessary, you can take this one. mr. eisenberg. well, it is up to you. we will accept a copy. the chairman. if you wish, you may substitute a copy for it later. mr. latona. all right. the chairman. and then you may withdraw it. mr. eisenberg. may i mark that as , with the understanding that it can be substituted for by a copy? the chairman. yes. (the item referred to was marked commission exhibit no. and received in evidence.) (at this point, representative ford entered the hearing room.) mr. eisenberg. mr. latona, could you tell us what portion of the palm of lee harvey oswald was reproduced on the paper bag, exhibit ? mr. latona. the portion of the palm which was identified was of the right palm, and it is a portion which is sometimes referred to as the heel. it would be the area which is near the wrist on the little-finger side. i have a photograph here which has a rough drawing on it showing the approximate area which was identified. the chairman. which hand did you say? mr. latona. the right hand. mr. eisenberg. that little finger, is that sometimes called the ulnar side? mr. latona. the ulnar side; yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. is this a true photograph made by you? mr. latona. this is a true photograph of one of the exhibits you have received. mr. eisenberg. that is to say, the exhibit showing the right palmprint, which is marked ? mr. latona. that's correct. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, may i have this photograph admitted into evidence as ? the chairman. it may be admitted. (the item referred to was marked commission exhibit no. and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. do you have another photograph there? mr. latona. i have here a photograph which is a slight enlargement of the latent palmprint developed on the bag. it has a red circle drawn around it showing the palmprint which was developed. mr. eisenberg. is that a true photograph made by you? mr. latona. this is. it is approximately a time-and-a-half enlargement of the palmprint which i developed on the paper bag. mr. eisenberg. may i have that admitted, mr. chairman, as ? the chairman. it may be admitted by that number. (the item referred to was marked commission exhibit no. and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. having reference to the paper bag, exhibit , mr. latona, could you show us where on that bag this portion of the palm, the ulnar portion of the palm, of lee harvey oswald was found? mr. latona. this little red arrow which i have placed on the paper bag shows the palmprint as it was developed on the wrapper. the chairman. is it visible to the naked eye? mr. latona. yes; it is. i think you can see it with the use of this hand magnifier. mr. eisenberg. mr. latona, could you mark that arrow "a"--the arrow you have just referred to on exhibit , pointing to the portion of the palmprint of lee harvey oswald? the chairman. what is the number of the exhibit that it is on? mr. eisenberg. that is . mr. latona. may i--i tell you, i am going to furnish you a copy of this, but i cannot make a copy unless i have it. mr. eisenberg. we can lend it to you for that purpose. the chairman. you may have it to make the copy. mr. latona. and i will send you the copy. thank you. mr. eisenberg. now, i believe you said you also found a fingerprint of lee harvey oswald on this paper bag, . mr. latona. yes; i did. mr. eisenberg. can you tell us what finger and what portion of the finger of lee harvey oswald you identified that print as being? mr. latona. the fingerprint which was developed on the paper bag was identified as the right--as the left index fingerprint of lee harvey oswald. i also have a slight enlargement of it, if you care to see it. mr. eisenberg. you are showing us a true photograph of the actual fingerprint? mr. latona. as it appeared on the bag, slightly enlarged. mr. eisenberg. may i have that admitted as , mr. chairman? the chairman. it may be admitted. (the item referred to was marked commission exhibit no. and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. you are holding another photograph, mr. latona? mr. latona. i have here a photograph of the fingerprint card, of the one which i just took back, and it is actually a true reproduction of the front of the card. that was exhibit . this one here is a true reproduction of the front of exhibit . mr. eisenberg. and have you circled on that, the photograph which you are holding, the left index finger? mr. latona. that's right. mr. eisenberg. and would you show that to the chief justice? that is a true reproduction, mr. latona? mr. latona. yes; it is. mr. eisenberg. i would like that admitted as a. the chairman. it may be admitted. (the item referred to was marked commission exhibit no. a and received in evidence.) mr. latona. could that take the place of this? mr. eisenberg. i think our exhibits would be confused. mr. latona. very well. mr. eisenberg. now, what portion of the left index finger was that, mr. latona? mr. latona. that is the area which is to the left, or rather to the right of the index finger. mr. eisenberg. on which joint? mr. latona. on the first joint, which is under the nail. mr. eisenberg. is that known as the distal phalanx? mr. latona. that's right. mr. eisenberg. so it is the right side of the distal phalanx of the left index finger? mr. latona. that is correct. now, that would be looking at an impression made by the finger. if you were to look at the finger, you would raise the finger up and it would be on the opposite side, which would be on the left side of the distal phalanx. mr. eisenberg. now, when we were talking before about the palmprint, and you said that it was on the right side--you said it was on the ulnar portion of the palm? mr. latona. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. and that is looking at the palm itself? mr. latona. looking at the palm itself. mr. eisenberg. now, i would rather---- mr. latona. that would still be the ulnar side when you look at the print. mr. eisenberg. why don't we use ulnar and radial then when we refer to portions of fingerprints, ulnar referring to the little-finger side, and radial to the thumb side? so referring to the left index fingerprint now, that would correspond to the ulnar side of the left index finger of lee harvey oswald? mr. latona. that is correct. the chairman. congressman ford, i'm going to leave now to attend a session of the court. if you will preside in my absence, mr. dulles will be here in a few moments, and if you are obliged to leave for your work in the congress, he will preside until i return. (at this point, mr. dulles entered the hearing room and the chairman left the hearing room.) mr. eisenberg. mr. latona, could you show us where on the paper bag, exhibit , this left index finger was developed by you? mr. latona. the left index fingerprint was developed in the area which is indicated by this small red arrow. mr. eisenberg. could you put a "b" on that arrow to which you are pointing? mr. latona, did you make comparison charts of the known and latent or the inked and latent palmprints of lee harvey oswald which you have been referring to as found on this paper bag, ? mr. latona. yes; i did. mr. eisenberg. could you---- mr. dulles. shouldn't you change that question a little bit? i don't think you should say lee harvey oswald at this point. mr. eisenberg. he has identified the print as being that of lee harvey oswald. mr. dulles. excuse me. mr. eisenberg. mr. latona, could you show us that chart and discuss with us some of the similar characteristics which you found in the inked and latent print which led you to the conclusion that they were identical? mr. latona. yes. i have here what are referred to as two charted enlargements. one of the enlargements, which is marked "inked left index fingerprint. lee harvey oswald" is approximately a -time enlargement of the fingerprint which appears on exhibit a. the other enlargement, which is marked "latent fingerprint on brown homemade paper container," is approximately a -time enlargement of the latent fingerprint which was developed on the brown wrapping paper indicated by the red arrow, "b." mr. eisenberg. and that also corresponds to the photograph you gave us, which is now exhibit ? mr. latona. that's correct. representative ford. and the arrow, "b," is on exhibit ? mr. latona. that's correct. now, in making a comparison of prints to determine whether or not they were made by the same finger, an examination is made first of all of the latent print. an examination is made to see if there are in the latent print any points or characteristics which are unique to the person making the determination. in other words, in looking at the latent print, for example, this point, which is marked " ," is a ridge. the black lines are what we term ridges. they were made by the ridge formations on the fingers. that is, when the finger came in contact with the brown paper bag, it left an outline in these black lines on the brown paper bag. now, in looking at the latent print in the enlargement you notice there is one black line that appears to go upward and stop at the point which has been indicated as point no. . mr. eisenberg. mr. latona, may i interrupt you there for a second. mr. chairman, i would like to introduce this chart, this comparison chart, as an exhibit. representative ford. it may be admitted. mr. eisenberg. that will be . (the item referred to was marked commission exhibit no. and was received in evidence.) mr. latona. looking further we notice---- mr. dulles. could i just ask a question about this? this is referring to exhibit . i want to make sure what line we are talking about. you are talking about a black line that goes up as though two rivers came together there, and here is the point where this line stops. mr. latona. that's correct. mr. dulles. no. . this is the latent? mr. latona. this is the imprint. this is the print on the bag. mr. dulles. yes. mr. latona. the contrast here is not as good as it is here. mr. dulles. this goes up here, and these two lines come in there, so there is the point where your black line stops? mr. latona. right at the end of the red line which is marked " ." mr. dulles. thank you. mr. latona. now, looking further we find this point that has been indicated as no. . and no. is located---- mr. dulles. why do you skip ? mr. latona. i am going to come to that. mr. dulles. i see. mr. latona. i am going to tie these three in. point no. is above and to the left one ridge removed from--one black line--there is no. . now looking further, we can look over to the right, or rather to the left, and we notice that one ridge removed from no. are two ridges that come together and give you a point which has been indicated as no. . mr. eisenberg. is that what you might call a bifurcation? mr. latona. that is referred to, generally speaking, as a bifurcation. mr. eisenberg. that is no. ? mr. latona. and no. is what is referred to as a ridge end. now, keeping those three points in mind, and the relationship they have to each other, if this print here, the inked print, were made by the same finger which left the print on the brown paper bag, we should be able to find those three points in the same approximate area, having the same relationship to each other. now, at this point we have not made a determination of any kind as to whether they are or are not identical. examining the inked fingerprint, bearing in mind the general formation of this print that we see here, the latent print, we would examine the inked print and that would direct us to this approximate area here. and looking, we find sure enough there is point no. --or rather there is a point which appears to be the same as point no. here. bearing in mind how we located points nos. and , we would then check the inked print further and say to ourselves, "if this print were the same, there should be a point no. in exactly the same relationship to no. as there was in this latent print." we look over here--one, two, three, four--there is point no. . mr. eisenberg. that point, or that count that you are making, is of ridges between the first and second point? mr. latona. between the points, that's right. then we have over here one, two, three, four. and bearing in mind again how point no. bears a relationship to point no. , we should find point no. in the same relative position in the inked print that it occurs in the latent print. counting over again--one--we find a point which could be considered no. . now, at this time we have coordinated three points. we have tied three points together. on that basis, by themselves, we would not give a definite determination. accordingly, we would pursue a further examination to determine whether there are other characteristics which occur. mr. dulles. how many times is that magnified? mr. latona. this is magnified approximately times. then we would pick up point no. . we notice point no. is again one of those bifurcations which occurs above and slightly to the left of point no. . we also notice that it envelops point no. --as we go down further, slightly to the right of point no. , we notice that bifurcation envelops point no. . so we would look around for such a characteristic in the latent print. if the same finger made those two prints, we have to find point . and looking over here we find such a formation, we look at it, and sure enough it envelops point no. --exactly the same relationship to each other appears in the latent print, and in the inked print. it has the same relationship to point no. that occurs in the latent print as occurs in the inked print. then we would pick up point no. --one, two, three, four. mr. eisenberg. again you are counting ridges? mr. latona. counting ridges again, from point no. --one, two, three, four. there is a so-called ridge end, which occurs above, above and almost slightly to the left of point no. , point no. enveloping no. . point no. . mr. dulles. is a ridge-end? mr. latona. five is what we term a joining, forking, or bifurcation. these two come together at point . over here, together at point . mr. dulles. is that where the two ridges come together there and encase it? mr. latona. yes, sir. from point no. we pick up point no. , which is another one of those so-called bifurcations. one, two, three, four. mr. eisenberg. again a ridge count? mr. latona. ridge counting from to . that is in the latent print. we must find the same situation in the inked print. counting from point no. the ridges which intervene, one, two, three, and then we count four, the point itself. there is the bifurcation right here. mr. eisenberg. mr. latona, in making these ridge counts, do you also pay attention to the so-called, let's say, geographical relation, the spatial relation of the two points? mr. latona. very definitely. now, it does not always follow that the so-called geographical position will coincide exactly the same. that would be caused because of variations in the pressure used when the print was made. for example, when you make a print on a fingerprint card: when the inked print was made, the print was made for the specific purpose of recording all of the ridge details. when the print was left on the paper bag, it was an incidental impression. the person was not trying to leave a print. in fact, he probably did not even know he left one. so the pressure which is left, or the position of the finger when it made the print, will be a little different. accordingly the geographical area of the points themselves will not always coincide. but they will be in the general position the same. mr. eisenberg. mr. latona, without going into detail, there are some apparent dissimilarities on the two sides of that chart. can you explain why there should be apparent dissimilarities? mr. latona. the dissimilarities as such are caused by the type of material on which the print was left, because of the pressure, because of the amount of material which is on the finger when it left the print. they would not always be exactly the same. here again there appears a material difference in the sense there is a difference in coloration. this is because of the fact that the contrast in the latent print is not as sharp as it is in the inked impression, which is a definite black on white, whereas here we have more or less a brown on a lighter brown. mr. eisenberg. now, mr. latona, when you find an apparent dissimilarity between an inked and a latent print, how do you know that it is caused by absorption of the surface upon which the latent print is placed, or by failure of the finger to exude material, rather than by the fact that you have a different fingerprint? mr. latona. that is simply by sheer experience. mr. eisenberg. would you say, therefore, that the identification of a fingerprint is a task which calls for an expert interpretation, as opposed to a simple point-by-point laying-out which a layman could do? mr. latona. very definitely so; yes. mr. eisenberg. how much training does it take before you can make an identification? mr. latona. well, i cannot tell you exactly how much in terms of time, insofar as what constitutes an expert. i can simply tell you what we require of our people before they would be considered experts. mr. eisenberg. yes, could you do that? mr. latona. we require our people before they would be---- mr. dulles. this is the fbi? mr. latona. yes; this is the fbi. it would be years of practical work in connection with the classifying and searching and verifying of regular fingerprint cards which bear all prints. those prints would be searched through our main fingerprint files. that means that that person would have to serve at least years doing that. of course, he would have to progress from the mere searching operation to the operation of being what we call unit supervisor, which would check--which would be actually the checking of the work of subordinates who do that work. he would be responsible for seeing that the fingerprints are properly searched, properly classified. mr. eisenberg. and how long will he work in the latent fingerprint section? mr. latona. he would have to take an adaptability test, which would take or days, to determine, first of all, do we feel he has the qualifications for the job. then if he passed the adaptability test, he would receive a minimum of year's personal training in the latent fingerprint section--which means that he would have to serve at least years in fingerprint work constantly, day in and day out, hours a day in fingerprint work, before we would consider him as a fingerprint expert for purposes of testifying in a court of law. mr. eisenberg. so that when you show us this chart, this is actually, or i should say, is this actually a demonstration, rather than a chart from which we could make an identification? mr. latona. that's right. the purpose is simply a hope on my part that by my explanation you may have some idea as to how a comparison is made, rather than for me to prove it to you through these charts, because unquestionably there are certain points that you will not see which to me are apparent. mr. eisenberg. now, mr. latona---- mr. dulles. may i ask a question? is this ridge formation, sort of two ridges coming together, is that one of the most distinctive things you look for? i note on these charts, exhibit , the various examples you have given us have been of one type so far. mr. latona. two. mr. dulles. i did not get the two. i get the two ridges coming together with sort of the ending of a valley. you were saying there were two distinctive things. i have only caught so far one distinctive thing--that is the two ridges coming together in a kind of valley with no exit. mr. latona. two that come together, like a fork. and the other one was the one that just ends by itself--does not join. mr. eisenberg. which is an interrupted ridge? mr. dulles. i do not get the distinction. mr. eisenberg. is that an interrupted ridge you just described? mr. latona. what we call an ending ridge. mr. eisenberg. off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. eisenberg. back on the record. mr. latona, could you prepare a diagram which would show some of the characteristics, in broad outline, which we have been discussing, and have those labeled, and could you submit that diagram to us at a future date? mr. latona. yes; i could. mr. eisenberg. we will append it to your testimony, so that your testimony may be more easily followed in the record--with the permission of the chairman. representative ford. it will be prepared and submitted and included in the record. (the item referred to was later supplied and was marked commission exhibit no. a.) mr. latona. well, if you could give me your indulgence, i could do it right here as fast as i did it on the board. representative ford. off the record. (discussion off the record.) representative ford. back on the record. mr. dulles. these, i understand, are the particular distinguishing points, the points that you would look for to determine whether the latent print---- mr. latona. not so much the looking for the points, as to finding points having a relationship to each other. it is the relation that is the important thing, not the point itself. in other words, all of us would have to a certain extent these points. mr. dulles. they have to be in the same relation to each other. mr. latona. that is correct. for example, on the illustration i have here---- mr. eisenberg. this is an illustration on the blackboard. mr. latona. the mere fact that this is an ending ridge and bifurcation and another ending ridge and a dot in themselves mean nothing. this is a type of pattern which is referred to as a loop, which is very common. these comprise approximately percent of pattern types. it has four ridge counts, for example. you can find hundreds of thousands and millions of four-count loops. but you would not find but one loop having an arrangement of these characteristics in the relation that they have. for example, the enclosure is related to this ending ridge. this ending ridge is related by one ridge removed from the dot. this bifurcation is next to the so-called core which is formed by a rod, the ending ridge. the points themselves are common. the most common type of points are the ending ridge and the bifurcation. those are the two points we have covered so far. mr. eisenberg. mr. latona, i see that you have marked nine characteristics on your chart. are these all the characteristics which you were able to find---- mr. latona. on this particular chart; yes. they were the only ones that bore--actually, there is still one more characteristic--there could have been . mr. eisenberg. now, is there any minimum number of points that has to be found in order to make an identification, in your opinion? mr. latona. no; in my opinion, there are no number of points which are a requirement. now, there is a general belief among lots of fingerprint people that a certain number of points are required. it is my opinion that this is an erroneous assumption that they have taken, because of the fact that here in the united states a person that qualifies in court as an expert has the right merely to voice an opinion as to whether two prints were made by the same finger or not made. there are no requirements, there is no standard by which a person can say that a certain number of points are required--primarily because of the fact that there is such a wide variance in the experience of men who qualify as fingerprint experts. mr. eisenberg. mr. latona, you said that not all experts are in agreement on this subject. is there any substantial body of expert opinion that holds to a minimum number of points, let's say, ? mr. latona. in the united states, to my knowledge, i know of no group or body that subscribe to a particular number. now, quite frequently some of these departments will maintain a standard for themselves, by virtue of the fact that they will say, "before we will make an identification, we must find a minimum of points of similarity." i am quite certain that the reason for that is simply to avoid the possibility of making an erroneous identification. now, why they have picked --i believe that that -point business originated because of a certain article which was written by a french fingerprint examiner by the name of edmond locard back in , i think--there was a publication to the effect that in his opinion where there were points of similarity, there was no chance of making an erroneous identification. if there were less than , he voiced the conclusion that the chances would increase as to finding duplicate prints. now, today we in the fbi do not subscribe to that theory at all. we simply say this: we have confidence in our experts to the extent that regardless of the number of points, if the expert who has been assigned to the case for purposes of making the examination gives an opinion, we will not question the number of points. we have testified--i personally have testified in court to as few as seven points of similarity. mr. dulles. but you would not on two, would you? mr. latona. no, sir; because i know that two points, even though they would not be duplicate points, could be arranged in such a fashion that it might possibly give me the impression that here are two points which appear to be the same even though they are are not. mr. dulles. but it is somewhere between two and seven--somewhere in that range? mr. latona. that is right. where that is, i do not know. and i would not say whether i would testify to six, would i testify to five, would i refuse to testify to four. mr. dulles. you say you would--or would you? mr. latona. i don't know. that's a question i could not answer. i would have to see each case individually before i could render a conclusion. now, going outside of the united states, we have been approached--i mean the fbi--have been approached by other foreign experts in an attempt to set a worldwide standard of characteristics, a minimum of , as opposed to , which is generally referred to by people in this country here. now of course we would not subscribe to that at all. and i think---- mr. dulles. that would be on the fingerprint of the same finger? mr. latona. that's right. mr. dulles. obviously, if you have two fingers that would alter the number--if you had three on one and two on the other, would you consider that five? mr. latona. we would. now, whether the foreign experts would not, i don't know. in other words, if we were to go along with this european theory of points, we would not testify to this being an identification. that is really what it would amount to. yet to me, in my mind, there is no question that these prints here---- mr. eisenberg. which is what exhibit? mr. latona. the enlargements in exhibit --are simply reproductions of the left index fingerprint of lee harvey oswald. representative ford. there is no doubt in your mind about that? mr. latona. absolutely none at all. the fact that there are only the nine points charted--and i feel this way, it is purely a matter of experience. they simply do not have the experience that we have in the fbi. the fbi has the world's largest practical fingerprint file. we receive on an average of , to , cards a day which are processed within a -day period. mr. dulles. in a -day period? mr. latona. in a -day period. mr. dulles. and by processed do you mean they are filed according to certain characteristics? mr. latona. they are. at first they are recorded as having been received from a particular agency, as to the number that we have received, as to the type of the card. then they are checked to see if the impressions which are on the fingerprint card are complete and legible, that they are placed in their proper sequence, that is they are properly classified. then they are checked through our files to see if the person has or has not a prior criminal record. then a reply is prepared and forwarded to the contributor. that is done in a -day period. mr. dulles. how old is the art, roughly? mr. latona. insofar as this country is concerned, i would say back to , when the first fingerprint file for purposes of classification and filing was set up in this country in new york. mr. dulles. did it start in france? mr. latona. no. really, i daresay the english were probably as early as any, or even down to south america--you have in argentina the setting up of fingerprint files as early as . for a long time we never recognized the fact that argentina had a fingerprint file. i think it is primarily because all of the works on fingerprinting were written in spanish, and it was just a question of finding somebody to take the time and effort to translate it into english. the french are credited with the so-called bertillon system, which is a measurement of the bone structure of the body. alphone bertillon was a french---- mr. dulles. didn't bertillon go into fingerprints later? mr. latona. very reluctantly. he was very reluctant to accept it. he was a sort of diehard. he felt that his method, the measurement of certain bones of the body, would not change after a person reached the adult stage. but we know that that is not true. there is a change--because of age, disease, dissipation. a person that was once ' " may, because of the fact he is getting older, hump down a little more and instead of being ' " he might be ' ". certain bone structures over the years make certain changes--plus the fact that his system was not a good system in that certain allowances had to be made because of the way that people were measured. sometimes one operator might measure the bones of the arm, for example, too tight, and another too loose. and they used the metric system of measurement, which in terms of their measuring might sometimes mean that the same person would not measure the same bone the same way twice. we have the celebrated case here which we refer to as the will west case, here in the united states, in which a man was sentenced to the penitentiary in leavenworth. he was a colored man by the name of will west. the operator there, going through the mechanics of taking the various measurements and his photograph, said, "i see you are back here again." the man said, "no, this is the first time i have been to leavenworth." the operator was certain he had measured and photographed this man before. he went to check his records and he came up with a prior record which disclosed a will west who had practically the same bertillon measurements as the man currently being examined. he said, "isn't this you?" and he showed him a picture. he looked at the picture and recognized the picture as being one of himself. he said, "yes, that is me, but i have never been here before." they checked the records and found still there in the penitentiary was another will west who looked almost exactly like a twin. but they were not even related. their features were the same, their measurements were the same, but then their fingerprints were completely different. if they made that error that one time, how many other times could the same error have been made? and accordingly, we here in the united states, around --the bertillon method was slowly put out of use. it became obsolete. bertillon, before he died, conceded that fingerprints was a good means of identification, and he very reluctantly conceded that the two systems, his method and fingerprints together, would be an absolute means of identification. we completely did away with the bertillon system. in fact, the fbi never used it. we started our fingerprint work years after all that had been resolved, back in . on july , , that is actually when the fbi went into the fingerprint business. mr. dulles. thank you very much. i found that very interesting. representative ford. go ahead, mr. eisenberg. mr. eisenberg. mr. latona, did you also prepare a chart showing a comparison of the latent and known left-index fingerprint of lee harvey oswald found on the paper bag, exhibit ? mr. latona. the left index finger. that is the one we just discussed. mr. eisenberg. i'm sorry--the right palmprint. mr. latona. right. mr. eisenberg. and before we go any further, i should state for the record that the exhibit we have been referring to as was earlier introduced as , and it is . mr. dulles. off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. dulles. back on the record. mr. eisenberg. also, before we get to the palmprint---- mr. dulles. just a moment. it seems to me it would be well to have for the files of the commission copies of the earlier fingerprints of lee harvey oswald that were taken, and the time that they were taken. mr. eisenberg. i agree, sir. mr. latona---- mr. latona. do i understand you are asking---- mr. eisenberg. i will develop this on the record. mr. latona, you had earlier submitted to us, and we had marked as an exhibit, copies of fingerprint cards and two palmprint cards which were made up by the dallas police and forwarded to you, received by you from your dallas office; is that correct? mr. latona. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. now, in addition, did the federal bureau of investigation have in its files prints of lee harvey oswald which it had received at some earlier date, prior to november ? mr. latona. yes, sir; i believe there is a marine corps print. mr. eisenberg. would these prints have been taken by the fbi? mr. latona. no; they would not. mr. eisenberg. they were taken by---- mr. latona. the regular service. mr. eisenberg. and forwarded to the fbi? mr. latona. that's right. mr. eisenberg. did you compare the -finger card which you received from the dallas office of the fbi and compare it with the marine fingerprint card? mr. latona. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. were they identical? mr. latona. they were the same. mr. eisenberg. were the palmprints taken by the marines? mr. latona. no; not to my knowledge. mr. eisenberg. could you submit to us a copy of the -print card which you received from the marine corps? mr. latona. yes; i could. mr. eisenberg. with the chairman's permission, that will be appended as an exhibit to mr. latona's testimony. representative ford. do you wish to identify it by a number at this time? mr. eisenberg. yes. if we could give it a number in advance of receiving it, i would like to give it commission exhibit no. . (the item referred to was later supplied and was marked commission exhibit no. .) representative ford. it will be admitted. mr. dulles. do you know whether any fingerprints were taken after lee harvey oswald returned from the soviet union? mr. latona. those after he was arrested in connection with this particular offense. mr. dulles. apart from the fingerprints obtained in connection with the assassination. mr. latona. i do not. mr. dulles. do you have a right to go to anybody and demand their fingerprints? mr. latona. no. mr. dulles. under law? mr. latona. no, sir; only persons taken into custody for federal violations as such. now, the fbi has actually no authority at all, except in cases of making an arrest. mr. dulles. there is nothing done in connection with the census or anything of that kind? mr. latona. no, sir. some persons are ordered, by virtue of being aliens, to be fingerprinted--those that are domiciled here in the united states must register under the alien registration act. mr. dulles. and fingerprints then are taken of aliens in connection with their registration? mr. latona. that's right. mr. dulles. otherwise there is no general procedure for the taking of anybody that you may happen to want to take? mr. latona. the services, of course, require it. applicants for certain positions are required by law. for example, all civil service, federal civil service applicants must be fingerprinted. locally, there are certain local cases. for example a man may in some localities, if he even applies for a chauffeur's license, has to be fingerprinted. if he desires a gun permit, he has to be fingerprinted. in some places, if he applies for certain jobs he must be fingerprinted. mr. dulles. as i recall, i gave a fingerprint when i got my automobile license. is that general throughout the united states? mr. latona. what state was that? mr. dulles. here in the district. didn't i give that? mr. latona. no, sir. to my knowledge, there are none that require it--fingerprinting--for an automobile license. in california i believe it is voluntary--to place the finger, if you desire to, on your card. mr. dulles. thank you very much. mr. eisenberg. mr. latona, exhibit , which is one of the known -print cards submitted by the dallas office, is marked "refused to sign" in the box with the printed caption "signature of person fingerprinted." do you recall whether lee harvey oswald signed the marine corps card? mr. latona. offhand, i do not. mr. eisenberg. i think it would be interesting, for the record, to see if that is signed, and, of course, as we read the record and get the card, we will be able to note that information. we were discussing whether you had made a chart of the known and latent right palmprint of lee harvey oswald found on exhibit , as i will refer to it from now on. mr. latona. i believe i have already furnished you smaller photographs. mr. eisenberg. yes; you have. those have been marked into evidence. mr. latona. this is the inked--the right inked palmprint, a photograph of the right inked palmprint of lee harvey oswald. mr. eisenberg. you say "this." can you identify that exhibit? it is . i am handing you exhibit . mr. latona. exhibit is approximately a time and a half enlargement of the latent palmprint which was developed on the brown wrapper. mr. eisenberg. that is exhibit . mr. latona. exhibit --which is indicated by the red arrow a. mr. eisenberg. did you prepare this chart, mr. latona? mr. latona. not personally, no. this was made under my personal direction and supervision. mr. eisenberg. and is it an accurate reproduction of the known and latent prints which were earlier introduced into evidence? mr. latona. it is. it is a true and faithful reproduction of these areas, enlarged to approximately eight times the originals. mr. eisenberg. may i have this introduced into evidence as , mr. chairman? representative ford. it will be introduced. (the item referred to was marked commission exhibit no. and received in evidence.) mr. dulles. may i ask whether this was discovered immediately after the assassination--at what time did you discover this particular palmprint? mr. latona. it was on the d of november, the day after. mr. eisenberg. using this chart, , mr. latona, could you demonstrate to us some of the points which led you to the conclusion that the latent palmprint on was the palmprint of lee harvey oswald? mr. latona. the procedure in making this comparison was exactly the same as the procedure followed in connection with making the prior examination of the fingerprint. now, the area which shows in approximately an eight-time enlargement, and is marked "latent palmprint developed on brown homemade paper container," which is exhibit , is roughly outlined on commission exhibit in red, which is a photograph of the inked right palmprint of lee harvey oswald. this area below the little finger, or what we referred to as the ulnar portion of the palm--now, in making the examination or comparison, here again--first of all i would like to point out that there is a black line that goes right through--in an upward fashion--through the enlargement of the latent fingerprint. that line is caused by virtue of the fact that the palmprint which is developed is partially on a piece of tape as well as the wrapper itself. in other words, a part of the print is on a piece of tape and the other part is on the paper itself. mr. eisenberg. mr. latona, could you show how the palm lay on the paper to produce that impression? mr. latona. the palm lay in this fashion here. mr. eisenberg. you are putting your right hand on the paper so that the fingers are pointing in the same direction as the arrow a? mr. latona. that's right. mr. eisenberg. and it is at approximately right angles to the paper bag? mr. latona. that's right. here again, in making the comparison, a check is made for the location of certain points. now, we notice here that the points appear to be much closer than they were in the fingerprint, and that is probably because of the pressure which was exercised, possibly in holding the object which was in this paper container. now, you notice this point no. here, which we term the ending ridge. point no. is also an ending ridge. and you notice in between these points there is a ridge. point no. is to the left of point no. . then we find there is a point no. which is a point which is similar in character to point no. and is almost directly below, but there are two intervening ridges. then there is a point no. which is below point no. , and going in a direction opposite from point no. . if we bear those four points in mind--and if the latent palmprint was made by the same palm that made the inked palmprint--then we should find these four points in that position over there. now, in order to first of all find the particular area where we would look to see if those points exist, we would bear in mind the general formation of the print itself. we notice the so-called looping formation in the inked print. we see that there is a looping formation here. definitely it is not as pronounced in the latent print as it is in the inked print. but to the experienced eye, it is right here. accordingly, bearing in mind where these points would occur, we would generalize in the area to the extreme right of the enlargement, and find that there is a point which is somewhat similar to the point which appears in the inked impression, which momentarily we would say appears to be the same point as no. . now, bearing in mind how no. is related to point no. , does such a point appear in the latent print? and making the check, exactly in the same fashion and relationship that occurred in the inked print, we find that there is such a point. does a third point appear in the same relationship to point no. as it appears in the inked print? counting down one, two, and then the three point being the point itself. and in the same general flowing direction we count here, one, two, three--there it is. bearing in mind again that we found point no. is what we refer to as a bifurcation going in the opposite direction from no. , which was directly below and to the left, do we find such a point here? sure enough, there it is. now, an additional test would be this: at this point here we notice there is an abrupt ending of a ridge at this point here. it was not even charted. the fact is, it also occurs here. you see this point here, through which there is no line drawn, here it is right here---- mr. eisenberg. you are pointing above ? mr. latona. directly above to a ridge going--what we term flowing to the right. now, at this point here, to a fingerprint examiner of any experience at all, he would start saying these prints were probably made by the same fellow. to satisfy himself, he would continue to point no. --one, two, three, four--there is point no. . then there is no. , and there is no. here, having exactly the same relationship to each other. on the basis of those six points alone, i would venture the opinion that these palmprints were made by the same person. but for purposes of carrying it out further, here is point no. . point no. is obliterated to a certain degree to the inexperienced eye by virtue of the fact that it almost coincides with that line there. you probably do not see that. and here is point no. , which is related to point no. by the separation of those ridges in the same way. one, two, three, four--one, two, three, four. in its relationship to no. here--just above and to the left, flowing in the same general direction. here it is here. then your point no. , which is tied into point no. in this fashion here, and and . all of them have the same relationship insofar as the intervention of ridges is concerned, the same general area, plus the fact that they all flow in the same general direction. picking up no. , which is going upward, to point no. , which stands out rather easily-- here. to throw in just one point extra--see this little point here, that ends here? mr. eisenberg. that is to the upper right of ? mr. latona. to the right and upward of . mr. dulles. so you really have points there? mr. latona. actually, there are more than that in here, which i have not even bothered to chart. the opinion here, without any question at all, this latent print, which was developed on the brown bag marked "a"-- --was made by the right palm of lee harvey oswald. and in my opinion, this identification is absolute. there is no question at all that only the right palm of lee harvey oswald made this print, or could have made it. mr. eisenberg. are there any further questions on the prints appearing on this bag? representative ford. mr. murray? mr. murray. may i suggest this, mr. chairman? since the print on the bag may become obliterated, and since members of the commission have already seen it, it might be advisable to put on the record that they have seen it, because in time to come it may not be visible to anybody. representative ford. well, i for one would be willing to state that i have personally seen that fingerprint through a glass on the bag--both the finger and the palm. mr. dulles. i would be glad to concur that i also have seen the fingerprint and the palmprint to which congressman ford refers. mr. eisenberg. in that general connection, mr. latona, do you commonly make your fingerprint identifications on the basis of the object on which the latent print appears, or on the basis of a photograph of that object? mr. latona. normally it is made on the basis of photographs. we work more or less like an assembly-line basis, and we do not have the time or the opportunity to work from the originals, as was done in this case--this being quite an exceptional case. so the usual identification would be made--this was made on the basis of the bag itself, rather than to wait and get finished photographs from our photographic laboratory. if i recall correctly, this was on a saturday--the d? mr. eisenberg. yes; it was. mr. latona. we did not have our full staff there. we were called in to handle this case specially. there were no photographers available at that time for that particular purpose. frankly, under the circumstances it would not have made any difference whether they were available or not. this had a priority over everything we were working on and naturally we had to proceed as fast as we could, in a sense, to render conclusions and opinions at that time. accordingly, the original comparisons were made directly from the wrapper, rather than a photograph, which was prepared subsequently to this. representative ford. the suggestion has been made, mr. murray, that perhaps you would like to look at that palmprint and the fingerprint on the wrapping, and you might make a statement the same as mr. dulles and i have made. mr. eisenberg. could you point out to mr. murray, mr. latona, the two prints? mr. latona. yes, sir. "a" is the fingerprint. mr. dulles. and the witness certifies that these are true photographs of the fingerprint and the palmprint that you have exhibited? mr. latona. yes, sir. mr. murray. may i say for the record, mr. chairman, that i definitely and clearly saw what appeared to me to be a palmprint in the part of exhibit which was designated with a "b," and less clearly, but nevertheless i did see, the fingerprint on the other portion of the bag. mr. eisenberg. mr. latona---- mr. latona. "b" is the finger, and "a" is the palm. mr. murray. yes; that's correct. and the palm "a"--there i definitely saw what appeared to be a palmprint, and more faintly i saw a fingerprint in the portion marked "b." mr. dulles. and these are exhibits---- mr. eisenberg. this is exhibit . (at this point representative boggs entered the hearing room.) mr. dulles. both the palmprint and the fingerprint are on exhibit . mr. eisenberg. yes--marked "a" and "b" respectively. mr. latona, one further question on this subject. when you testify in court, do you frequently testify on the basis of the photographs rather than the original object? mr. latona. if the originals are available, i would prefer that they be brought into court. if they are not, then photographs are used--plus the original negative of the latent prints which were photographed. mr. eisenberg. now, mr. latona, i hand you commission exhibit which, for the record, consists of the rifle found on the sixth floor of the tsbd building, and which was identified yesterday as the rifle--and the day before yesterday--as the rifle which fired the fatal bullets, and i ask you whether you are familiar with this weapon? mr. latona. yes; i am. mr. eisenberg. and did you examine this weapon to test--did you examine this weapon to determine whether there were any identifiable latent fingerprints on it? mr. latona. i examined the weapon to determine whether there were any identifiable latent prints on the weapon. mr. eisenberg. when did you receive the weapon? mr. latona. on the morning of november , . mr. eisenberg. and when did you proceed to make your examination? mr. latona. i proceeded to make my examination that same day that i received it. mr. eisenberg. can you tell us what techniques you used? mr. latona. well, the technique that i used first was simply to examine it visually under a magnifying glass, a hand magnifying glass, primarily for the purpose of seeing, first of all, whether there were any visible prints. i might point out that my attention had been directed to the area which we refer to as the trigger guard on the left side of the weapon, commission exhibit . mr. eisenberg. the trigger-guard area? mr. latona. the trigger-guard area. mr. eisenberg. which actually, in the case of this particular weapon, is the area in which the magazine is inserted at the top; is that correct? you are looking at the weapon now, and the magazine comes out the bottom of what is called the trigger-guard area, which would be a trigger guard on another weapon. mr. latona. that's correct. there had been placed over that area a piece of cellophane material. my attention had been directed to it, to the effect that a prior examination had been made of that area, and that there were apparently certain latent prints available--visible under that area. i first examine most prints to see---- mr. dulles. who placed the cellophane material there, in your opinion? mr. latona. well, i was told--my information was simply that the dallas police department had done so. i have no personal knowledge as to who did it, other than information that the dallas police had examined the weapon and they had found these visible marks on there, that they had developed the prints. now, by what means they did it, i do not know, but i would assume they used a gray powder. mr. dulles. what was the purpose of putting the cellophane there? mr. latona. to protect the prints while the rifle was intransit to the fbi. mr. eisenberg. now, when you received it with the cellophane cover, what portion did it cover? mr. latona. closest to the trigger area. mr. eisenberg. on the trigger guard, closest to the trigger area? mr. latona. that's right. mr. eisenberg. was that on the right or left side of the weapon? mr. latona. left side. mr. eisenberg. and was there a print visible to you underneath the cellophane? mr. latona. i could see faintly ridge formations there. however, examination disclosed to me that the formations, the ridge formations and characteristics, were insufficient for purposes of either effecting identification or a determination that the print was not identical with the prints of people. accordingly, my opinion simply was that the latent prints which were there were of no value. now, i did not stop there. mr. eisenberg. before we leave those prints, mr. latona, had those been developed by the powder method? mr. latona. yes; they had. mr. eisenberg. was that a gray powder? mr. latona. i assumed that they used gray powder in order to give them what little contrast could be seen. and it took some highlighting and sidelighting with the use of a spotlight to actually make those things discernible at all. representative ford. as far as you are concerned. mr. latona. that's right. mr. dulles. is is likely or possible that those fingerprints could have been damaged or eroded in the passage from texas to your hands? mr. latona. no, sir; i don't think so. in fact, i think we got the prints just like they were. there had, in addition to this rifle and that paper bag, which i received on the d--there had also been submitted to me some photographs which had been taken by the dallas police department, at least alleged to have been taken by them, of these prints on this trigger guard which they developed. i examined the photographs very closely and i still could not determine any latent value in the photograph. so then i took the rifle personally over to our photo laboratory. in the meantime, i had made arrangements to bring a photographer in especially for the purpose of photographing these latent prints for me, an experienced photographer--i called him in. i received this material in the justice building. my office of operations is in the identification division building, which is at d and d streets sw. so i made arrangements to immediately have a photographer come in and see if he could improve on the photographs that were taken by the dallas police department. well, we spent, between the two of us, setting up the camera, looking at prints, highlighting, sidelighting, every type of lighting that we could conceivably think of, checking back and forth in the darkroom--we could not improve the condition of these latent prints. so, accordingly, the final conclusion was simply that the latent print on this gun was of no value, the fragments that were there. after that had been determined, i then proceeded to completely process the entire rifle, to see if there were any other prints of any significance or value--any prints of value--i would not know what the significance would be, but to see if there were any other prints. i completely covered the rifle. i also had a firearms man---- representative boggs. what do you cover it with? mr. latona. gray fingerprint powder. representative boggs. what is that powder? mr. latona. it is usually a combination of chalk and mercury, or possibly white lead and a little bit of resin material to give it some weight. mr. eisenberg. and you testified earlier that that adheres---- mr. latona. to the moisture that was left by the finger, the fingers or the hands, when it came in contact with the surface. representative boggs. how long will that condition remain? mr. latona. going from one extreme to the other, it may remain for years; under other circumstances, it may not even last for or minutes. representative boggs. why the difference? mr. latona. because of the amount of material which was left and the condition of the material which was left. basically, the material may be made up of protein material and salt and water--primarily water. if it is totally water, with very little salt or oily material, when the evaporation is effected, then it is complete--there will be nothing left. representative boggs. you mean that it is gone? mr. latona. right. on the other hand, if there is an oily matter there, we know that latent prints will last literally for years on certain objects. representative boggs. well, just for purposes of information, if i make fingerprints there on the table, how long would they normally last? mr. latona. i don't know. representative boggs. well, would there be any way to know? mr. latona. no, sir. mr. dulles. it depends on temperature, on the amount of moisture involved? what does it depend on? mr. latona. first of all, i saw him touch it, but i am not even sure he left a print there. representative boggs. well, i can see it. mr. latona. as to the quality of the print, there again it is simply a matter of what material you have in your hands that made that print, as to how long it will last, how long it will take for it to evaporate. actually, when it dries out, it may, in itself, leave a print with such clarity that it would not--even though it would not accept the powder, still by highlighting it, the way you did to see that the print was there, we could photograph it so it would come out just as clear as though it were black on white. representative boggs. does the material that one touches have any effect? mr. latona. very definitely. it depends on how hard or smooth the material is. representative boggs. now, does a weapon lend itself to retaining fingerprints? mr. latona. this particular weapon here, first of all, in my opinion, the metal is very poorly finished. it is absorbent. believe it or not, there is a certain amount of absorption into this metal itself. it is not finished in the sense that it is highly polished. representative boggs. so this would be conducive to getting a good print, or would it? mr. latona. it would not. representative boggs. i see--because it would absorb the moisture. mr. latona. that's right. now, there are other guns--for example, smith and wesson, which have exceptionally nice finishes, the blue metal finishes are better surfaces for latent prints. where you have a nickel-plated or silver-plated revolvers, where it is smooth--they are much more conducive to latent prints than some of these other things, say like the army type, the weapons used in wartime that are dull, to avoid reflection--things of that type--they are not as good. mr. dulles. i wonder if you would like to look at the fingerprints we have gone over. they are quite apparent there with the glass. representative boggs. i would like to look at them. that is all i want to ask right at the moment. mr. dulles. i would like to ask a general question. mr. latona (addressing representative boggs). this is one of the fingerprints developed on the brown wrapper. it is this print here. mr. dulles. you can see these prints quite clearly, and the palmprint. representative boggs. this is a photograph of that? mr. latona. this is approximately a time and a half enlargement. this is the left index finger. here is the palmprint that was developed. representative ford. mr. boggs--each of us here, mr. dulles, mr. murray, and myself, have said on the record that we have seen the prints on the wrapping. we did this because, as mr. latona has indicated, such prints may disappear over a period of time. we thought it might be well for the record to indicate that we saw them. if you wish to do the same---- representative boggs. i would like to do the same, having just seen it. mr. dulles. the witness has certified to the fact that these are true photographs of the prints that we have seen. representative boggs. and the witness has also certified that those are oswald's prints? mr. latona. no; i cannot certify to that. mr. eisenberg. do you want to explain that? mr. latona. as i am not the one that fingerprinted oswald, i cannot tell from my own personal knowledge that those are actually the fingerprints of lee harvey oswald. mr. eisenberg. but you can certify that those prints are identical with the prints on the card which bears the name of lee harvey oswald which was furnished to you? mr. latona. that is right. mr. eisenberg. we will get other evidence in the record at a subsequent time to show those were the prints of oswald. mr. latona, you were saying that you had worked over that rifle by applying a gray powder to it. did you develop any fingerprints? mr. latona. i was not successful in developing any prints at all on the weapon. i also had one of the firearms examiners dismantle the weapon and i processed the complete weapon, all parts, everything else. and no latent prints of value were developed. mr. eisenberg. does that include the clip? mr. latona. that included the clip, that included the bolt, it included the underside of the barrel which is covered by the stock. mr. eisenberg. were cartridge cases furnished to you at that time? mr. latona. they were, which i processed, and from which i got no prints. mr. eisenberg. therefore, the net result of your work on exhibit was that you could not produce an identifiable print? mr. latona. that's correct. mr. dulles. may i ask one question? does the secret service do fingerprinting work, or do they turn it over to you--turn to you for all of that? mr. latona. i think they do some of their own, and on occasion we will do some for them, too. primarily i think they do their own. i am not too familiar with the secret service as to how elaborate their laboratory is. mr. eisenberg. so as of november , you had not found an identifiable print on exhibit ? mr. latona. that is right. mr. eisenberg. i now hand you a small white card marked with certain initials and with a date, " - - ." there is a cellophane wrapping, cellophane tape across this card with what appears to be a fingerprint underneath it, and the handwriting underneath that tape is "off underside of gun barrel near end of foregrip c ," which i might remark parenthetically is the serial number of exhibit . i ask you whether you are familiar with this item which i hand you, this card? mr. latona. yes; i am familiar with this particular exhibit. mr. eisenberg. can you describe to us what that exhibit consists of, that item rather? mr. latona. this exhibit or this item is a lift of a latent palmprint which was evidently developed with black powder. mr. eisenberg. and when did you receive this item? mr. latona. i received this item november , . mr. eisenberg. before we go any further may i have this admitted into evidence? representative ford. it will be. what is the number? mr. eisenberg. that will be no. . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. mr. latona, could you describe to us what a lift is? mr. latona. a lift is merely a piece of adhesive material which is used for purposes of removing a print that has been previously developed on an object, onto the adhesive material. then the adhesive material is placed on a backing, in this case which happens to be the card. the adhesive material utilized here is similar to scotch tape. there are different types of lifting material. some of them are known as opaque lifters, which are made of rubber, like a black rubber and white rubber, which has an adhesive material affixed to it, and this material is simply laid on a print which has been previously developed on an object and the full print is merely removed from the object. mr. eisenberg. when you say "the print" is removed, actually the powder---- mr. latona. the powder that adhered to the original latent print is picked off of the object. mr. eisenberg. so that the impression actually is removed? mr. latona. that is right. representative ford. is that a recognized technique? mr. latona. yes; it is. representative ford. in the fingerprinting business? mr. latona. it is very common, one of the most common methods of recording latent prints. mr. eisenberg. who did you get this exhibit, this lift from? mr. latona. this lift was referred to us by the fbi dallas office. mr. eisenberg. and were you told anything about its origin? mr. latona. we were advised that this print had been developed by the dallas police department, and, as the lift itself indicates, from the underside of the gun barrel near the end of the foregrip. mr. eisenberg. now, may i say for the record that at a subsequent point we will have the testimony of the police officer of the dallas police who developed this print, and made the lift; and i believe that the print was taken from underneath the portion of the barrel which is covered by the stock. now, did you attempt to identify this print which shows on the lift exhibit ? mr. latona. yes; i did. mr. eisenberg. did you succeed in making identification? mr. latona. on the basis of my comparison, i did effect an identification. mr. eisenberg. and whose print was that, mr. latona? mr. latona. the palmprint which appears on the lift was identified by me as the right palmprint of lee harvey oswald. mr. eisenberg. now, mr. latona, as i understand it, on november , therefore, the fbi had not succeeded in making an identification of a fingerprint or palmprint on the rifle, but several days later by virtue of the receipt of this lift, which did not come with the weapon originally, the fbi did succeed in identifying a print on exhibit ? mr. latona. that is right. mr. eisenberg. which may explain any inconsistent or apparently inconsistent statements, which i believe appeared in the press, as to an identification? mr. latona. we had no personal knowledge of any palmprint having been developed on the rifle. the only prints that we knew of were the fragmentary prints which i previously pointed out had been indicated by the cellophane on the trigger guard. there was no indication on this rifle as to the existence of any other prints. this print which indicates it came from the underside of the gun barrel, evidently the lifting had been so complete that there was nothing left to show any marking on the gun itself as to the existence of such--even an attempt on the part of anyone else to process the rifle. mr. dulles. do i understand then that if there is a lifting of this kind, that it may obliterate---- mr. latona. completely. mr. dulles. the original print? mr. latona. that is right. mr. eisenberg. so that you personally, mr. latona, did not know anything about a print being on the rifle which was identifiable until you received, actually received the lift, exhibit ? mr. latona. on the th of november. mr. eisenberg. seven days after the assassination. and in the intervening period, correspondingly, the fbi had no such knowledge? mr. latona. as far as i know. mr. eisenberg. mr. latona, could you tell us what portion of the palm of lee harvey oswald you identified that print as being? mr. latona. yes. here again i have a photograph that will show the approximate area involved, which is on the ulnar side of the lower portion of the palm. mr. eisenberg. the ulnar---- mr. latona. down near the base of the palm toward the wrist. mr. eisenberg. this is the right palm? mr. latona. the right palm. mr. eisenberg. as it was in the case of the paper bag, exhibit ? mr. latona. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. could you display that photograph, please? this is a photograph which you took of the inked print which was furnished to you by the dallas office? mr. latona. i didn't personally prepare the photographs. they were prepared at my personal direction. mr. eisenberg. was it prepared under your supervision? mr. latona. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. is it an accurate reproduction? mr. latona. it is. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, may i have this admitted as ? representative ford. it shall be admitted. (the photograph referred to was marked as commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. latona. i might point out that you have the original of this which has been previously admitted. mr. eisenberg. yes; but this photograph shows a red circle around the portion which you identified---- mr. latona. that is right. mr. eisenberg. as being the latent found on the lift, is that right? (discussion off the record.) (the reporter read the last question.) mr. latona. yes. mr. eisenberg. mr. latona, now you are showing me another photograph which appears to be a photograph of the lift itself, exhibit , but an enlargement thereof? mr. latona. slightly enlarged; yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. was this prepared by you or under your supervision? mr. latona. it was. mr. eisenberg. and there is a red circle around this, on this photograph, that is around the print, the latent print? mr. latona. that is right. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, may i have this photograph admitted as ? representative ford. it shall be admitted. (the photograph referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. mr. latona, did you also prepare a chart showing an enlarged portion of the inked and latent palmprint? mr. latona. yes, sir; i did. mr. eisenberg. illustrating some of the points which you used in making your identification? mr. latona. yes, sir; i did. mr. eisenberg. was this chart prepared by you or under your supervision? mr. latona. this was prepared under my direct supervision. mr. eisenberg. may i have this admitted as ? representative ford. it shall be admitted. (the chart referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. what is the enlargement of this chart? mr. latona. approximately an eight-time enlargement of the latent print which appears on the lift, commission exhibit---- mr. eisenberg. ? mr. latona. . and the inked right palmprint enlargement is approximately eight times an enlargement of the exhibit . mr. eisenberg. the inked print? mr. latona. which is encircled in red, a portion of that area. mr. eisenberg. i wonder whether you could put that up on this easel here so that we can all see it, and explain to us some of the points which led you to your conclusion. mr. latona. here again the approach insofar as making a comparison is concerned is exactly the same. that never changes. in making a comparison of fingerprints or palmprints, the mechanics are exactly the same. first to look for what might be considered as points which are easy to see to the fingerprint man. representative ford. may i ask first was the lift a good print for technical purposes? mr. latona. yes; to the extent that the identification was made. there is no question as to the identity. now, insofar as quality is concerned, i believe that is what you have in mind, we don't, in fingerprint circles, don't say that this is a good latent as compared to a bad latent. if it is valuable for purposes of identification, so far as we are concerned it is good. now, that may not appear to the inexperienced eye possibly as being as clear as some of those others which you have already seen, but for the purpose of identification the points are here. that is the main thing. now, in making the comparison here it is easy to see the inked print. there is very little question here. this print was made on purpose for purposes of recording the ridges. this was made more or less incidental or possibly accidental. mr. dulles. how does the left one differ? i thought you told us before it was times. mr. latona. no; those were the others. mr. dulles. that was the fingerprint that was times? mr. latona. that is right. mr. dulles. and the palm has always been eight times? mr. latona. that is right, because of the fact to make it times it would have been enlarged to the extent that maybe you wouldn't be able to see the significance as to what it purports to be. if you enlarge a fingerprint too much, it loses its identity. i have seen them where they were enlarged so big that you couldn't tell what they were, and if somebody would tell you it is a fingerprint you would say, if you say so it is, but it doesn't look like it to me. now, in some other sciences, for example, like handwriting and things of that kind, you can enlarge them pretty good size, typewriting and things of that type, but a fingerprint because of the poorness in contrast plus the fact that in themselves these black marks have no particular significance, they might lose their identity, you won't reconcile a palmprint with a palmprint. so, actually for purposes of making comparisons we never make a comparison from an enlargement. the best way to make a comparison, the more complete, is to make it from the actual size, utilizing a regular fingerprint glass which enlarges approximately four diameters. we would never think of enlarging the prints for purposes of making our initial comparison. we make them on the basis of the actual size, just like you see it here, utilizing a fingerprint, which gives you a better picture. mr. eisenberg. fingerprint glass, you mean? mr. latona. fingerprint glass, because you get a much better view of the impression than you do where it is enlarged because in enlarging you have a tendency to distort the dissimilarities, to exaggerate what may be considered as dissimilarities. now, looking at these marks here again, which are very apparent here in the ink print, this no. which is a black line which flows over to the right, then one ridge directly below it and off to the left is this point no. . then by counting down , , , we come to this portion, a short-ending ridge, which is similar to this short-ending ridge in the illustration drawn on the board, is no. . now, here again the fingerprintman simply mentally says to himself, "if these palmprints were made by the same palm i should be able to find three such points in approximately the same area of this palmprint as was found here." the manner of isolating the area is by virtue of the fact that you see this looping formation, the looping formation is right in here, rather vague but it is there. looking in that approximate area, you notice faintly this black line that comes over to this area and stops at the point there. now, is this point no. the same as this point no. ? if it is, then there should be a point no. in the latent print which is in the same relative position as point no. occurs in the ink print. by looking in such a position by this one ridge removed and to the left, there is this point no. . then looking down to point no. , we notice one, two, three, four, there is this so-called short-ending ridge which to me shows up very clearly here in the enlargement of the latent print. point no. is this black line which is coming toward point no. , and right within the same area or line, there is point no. . point no. is picked up in this position over here, which is another one of these short-ending ridges. it is removed by one ridge or rather to the left of point no. as is seen here. then we pick up point no. , which is this point showing a cluster of ridge formation here. point no. is tied in. you can tie in point no. to point no. , point no. to point no. , and that coincides with point no. here. in that way we pick up point no. , showing the relationship of one, two, three and over here one, two, three, always the same formation, the same general area, the same relationship to each other. in that way we pick up point no. , point no. , and point no. , which have exactly the same formation. here is point no. coming this way, point no. going that way, these two ridges are in between. it checks perfectly. the same way with point no. which is just below point no. , and having the same relationship to point no. , the same general areas, identically the same type of characteristics, and exactly the same relationship to each other. on the basis of those points, the obvious conclusion to an experienced fingerprintman is simply that the same palm made both of these prints. only one palm could have made it, and that palm is the one which is alleged to be of lee harvey oswald, his right palm. representative boggs. is it true that every fingerprint of each individual on earth is different? mr. latona. yes, sir; that is my sincere belief. i say that not only on earth but all those that have died before and all those to come. there will never be duplication. mr. dulles. the same is true of palmprints, isn't it? mr. latona. absolutely; yes, sir; fingerprints and palmprints and footprints. representative boggs. can they be distorted, destroyed? mr. latona. they can be destroyed in the sense that---- representative boggs. cut your finger off, that is right? mr. latona. sure, you can cut your finger off. you can resort to what is known as--they can be transferred. you can slice off a pattern from one finger and place it on another but you will see the scar. they can have what is known as surgical planing. representative boggs. that is what i was thinking about. mr. latona. that can be done, too. representative boggs. what happens then? mr. latona. what happens is that you lose the ridge area and you will simply have a scar. there will be no more pattern. now, the pattern is formed by what are known as dermal papilla, which is below the epidermis or outer layer of skin. as long as you only injure the outer surface the ridge formation will grow back exactly the same as it was before. if you get down to the dermal papilla, which lay like this---- mr. eisenberg. you are drawing an illustration on the board which shows short, broad, downward strokes. mr. latona. if you destroy or injure these to the extent that there is actual bleeding, you will get a permanent scar. fingerprints can be destroyed or scarred in such a fashion that we would not be able to successfully classify them. mr. dulles. do criminals do that? mr. latona. yes; they do. we have had one case, probably the most successful was known as the so-called roscoe pitts case. this was a fugitive who in order to avoid identification went to an unscrupulous doctor who performed an operation and he did so by virtue of first cutting five slits on one side of his chest. then he removed the pattern areas, what we call the pattern areas, which would consist of removal of the whole core area down to the delta area, sliced that off. representative boggs. how much would that be? mr. latona. he would literally have to draw blood. he would have to get down and just slice that off completely. he did that with five fingers. then he taped the five fingers to the side of his chest and he kept them there for about weeks. the same procedure was gone through with the other hand, and at the end of that time they were taken down and bound up individually. when they finally healed, all he has now is scar tissue for his pattern areas; but all we did in order to identify him was to drop down to the second joint. we made the identification from the second joint. now, at that particular time---- representative boggs. after all that business. mr. latona. it didn't do him any good. literally, the easiest person in our files to identify is roscoe pitts. he is the only one that has scar patterns like that. as soon as they see anything like that, everybody that knows anything about our files knows--roscoe pitts. representative boggs. develop, if you will, please, that point that no two human beings ever have similar prints. why is that, in your opinion? mr. latona. well, earlier we went through a case which we have in the fbi, in which we literally have compared millions, millions of single prints with a fragmentary latent print which we developed on a demand note in a kidnapping case, one of our major kidnapping cases which occurred back in , and we have compared this fragmentary print. now, ordinarily in fingerprints there are four basic pattern types. you have an arch, tented arch, a loop, and a whorl. now in making a comparison, naturally if you can tell the type of pattern you are going to restrict your comparison to the particular type. in this instance we cannot tell what type of pattern this fragment that we developed is. we know that it is from a finger. and in attempting to identify the subject of this kidnapping case, we have compared it literally with millions of cards. now, existing in this fragmentary print there are only about seven to eight points that can be found, it is so fragmentary. we cannot determine the pattern. accordingly then, when you compare it, you have to compare it with a person's fingers regardless as to the pattern types. bearing in mind that the average fingerprint has from to points--identifying characteristics--we have literally made millions of comparisons with only a portion of a finger, and we have failed to identify these points in all types of patterns. isn't it sufficient to say then that people simply will not have the same fingerprints? yet you have authorities, so-called authorities, who say that it is possible to find all prints duplicated in chance out of followed by zeros, if you can figure out what that figure is. representative boggs. who are these authorities? mr. latona. they are really in my opinion mathematicians who on the basis of the so-called characteristic points have said points times times times to about the th power and wind up something like followed by zeros. they are mathematicians but they are not fingerprint people. mr. dulles. what is your card system like? if this is too confidential i don't want to get anything in the record here that is too secret. we can take it off the record. mr. latona. nothing is secret about our files. mr. dulles. how many characteristics do you file on a card so that when you find these characteristics you can go to the right cabinet and the right filing drawer and then pull out the right card in time? mr. latona. literally they can break down into hundreds of thousands of groups. representative boggs. how many do you have on file? mr. latona. we have the fingerprints of - / million people? representative boggs. that includes all of those who were in the army, navy---- mr. latona. million criminals and about . million what we call civil. i explained earlier that our files consist of two main files, it is criminal files and the civil files. in the civil files are the fingerprints of individuals, those prints that we have retained, who have been fingerprinted in connection with some civil affair like the services, for example, security, sensitive jobs, all types of applicants, alien registrations. then we also will accept the fingerprints of just a private citizen who would like to have his prints on record for simply identification purposes. they are in the category of . million. criminal prints, million. (discussion off the record.) representative ford. i have to leave, mr. dulles, will you take over as chairman for the rest of the time that you can be here? mr. dulles. i will do so. representative boggs. may i ask a question which is not particularly pertinent to this particular witness, but how many prints on various things like these boxes and other paraphernalia that the commission may now have in its possession have been identified as those of oswald? mr. latona. six all told. representative boggs. six altogether? mr. latona. six. representative boggs. that includes these? mr. latona. that is right. representative boggs. how many, three? mr. latona. three so far. mr. dulles (addressing mr. eisenberg). you have dealt with three so far? mr. eisenberg. three so far. we should modify this. we are only introducing this morning evidence associated with the crime, directly with the crime. now, there were many papers submitted to the identification division. i believe you did identify---- mr. latona. personal effects, wallet, pictures, papers, and things of that kind which in themselves bear oswald's prints, which they should because they belong to him. representative boggs. may i ask another question in this connection. a weapon of this type, in your examination do you find a lot of other prints on it as well? you do not? mr. latona. no. first of all the weapon itself is a cheap one as you can see. it is one that---- representative boggs. is what? mr. latona. a cheap old weapon. the wood is to the point where it won't take a good print to begin with hardly. the metal isn't of the best, and not readily susceptible to a latent print. representative boggs. was this weapon picked up first by the police? mr. eisenberg. yes, sir. representative boggs (addressing mr. eisenberg). did anyone touch it as far as you know? mr. eisenberg. no, no. it was picked up by a police officer attached to the dallas police force first. mr. dulles. it came to you directly then from the dallas police and not through the secret service? mr. latona. no; the fbi turned it over to me, the dallas office of the fbi flew it up here. representative boggs. what i am trying to determine is, the average police officer when he would pick up a weapon of that kind would take steps to secure whatever prints might be on that and also prevent the addition of prints, is that right? mr. latona. i would assume so. representative boggs. i mean this is part of his training, isn't it? mr. latona. yes, sir; especially if he is--yes; i would say so. that is almost elementary today. there are so many schools today going that an officer that doesn't give some thought to latent fingerprints, he hasn't been to school. representative boggs. of course not. but do you have that problem in your normal examination? mr. latona. well, a lot of times that all depends. sometimes they don't realize the significance of a latent examination, and it is unavoidable that an object has been contaminated. and then a lot of times it is simply because of the circumstances. sometimes possibly in an instance of this kind because of the crime itself which was involved, i dare say there must have been a lot of panic there at that time. that is just pure conjecture on my part. i don't know whether they were thinking in details as to the examination. i don't think they sat down and just figured very calmly what they were going to do. representative boggs. of course not. mr. latona. i imagine everybody just poured into that room where they found the thing, somebody would say, "was this the gun?" and he handed it to someone else and then he would look at it. lord knows what went on down there. by the time the gun got there--on the other hand, if the right officer was there he would have protected it from the beginning and that is unquestionably what happened here. mr. dulles. i have to make a telephone call. i will be right back. mr. eisenberg. i believe that the print showing in the lift was taken from an area which had been covered by the wooden stock so that it was protected even against---- mr. latona. promiscuous handling, yes. if that were on the underside, if that was covered by the wood then very obviously those people there never did touch that. mr. eisenberg. at any rate, we are going to find out exactly what they did. representative boggs. yes. go ahead. mr. eisenberg. now, just to elaborate on some questions which mr. boggs was asking earlier, mr. latona, referring specifically to this weapon, do you believe that a determination could have been made as to the age of the print found on the weapon which you have identified as being oswald's print, and a lift of which is exhibit no. ? mr. latona. no; i don't. mr. eisenberg. you don't? mr. latona. no; i don't. mr. eisenberg. are experts unanimous in this opinion? mr. latona. no; they are not. there are some experts who contend that they can determine from the way the print develops, and they will use the term "fresh." now, on the other hand, so far as the definition of "fresh," then it resolves itself into an hour, a day, a week, a month. what is "fresh" as aside from an "old" one? and my opinion simply is this. that on the basis of the print itself, on the basis of the print itself i cannot determine how old it is. mr. eisenberg. at least specifically on this type, or in particular focusing on this type of weapon? mr. latona. particularly on that weapon. mr. eisenberg. that is ? mr. latona. that is right. mr. eisenberg. if there are no further questions on exhibit , commissioner boggs, i will move on to another exhibit. mr. latona, i hand you now a small cardboard carton which has written on it "box a" in red pencil and has various other marks which i won't go into, and i ask you whether you are familiar with this box, this carton? mr. latona. yes; i am. mr. eisenberg. and did you examine this carton, mr. latona, to determine whether there were any identifiable latent fingerprints present? mr. latona. i did not personally process this box, but i was present at the time that the box was, and i had occasion to examine that during the course of its being processed while it was being done. mr. eisenberg. it was processed in your presence? mr. latona. in my presence and under my direction. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, i would like this admitted as a commission exhibit with your permission. representative boggs. it will be admitted. mr. eisenberg. that will be . (the box referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. mr. latona, when you received this box which is now , did it bear any evidence that it had been dusted or otherwise tested for fingerprints? mr. latona. no; it had not, just a plain cardboard box. mr. eisenberg. so far as you could tell then it had not been? mr. latona. that is right; it had not been processed. mr. eisenberg. how was it processed in the fbi laboratory? mr. latona. first by the iodine fume and subsequently by chemical means. mr. eisenberg. did the iodine fume develop any identifiable prints? mr. latona. it did not. mr. eisenberg. did the chemical means? mr. latona. the silver nitrate did develop a latent fingerprint. mr. eisenberg. just one? mr. latona. a latent fingerprint; yes. mr. eisenberg. just one identifiable print? mr. latona. one identifiable print; yes. mr. eisenberg. do you want to check your notes on that, mr. latona? mr. latona. there was another print identified on that. there were two prints, one palmprint. there was developed on box a, exhibit no. , one palmprint and one fingerprint. mr. eisenberg. were those the only identifiable prints, mr. latona? mr. latona. no; there were other fingerprints developed on this box. mr. eisenberg. do you recall how many there were? mr. latona. on box a, in addition to these two prints there were developed eight fingerprints and three palmprints. mr. eisenberg. that is, a total of ? mr. latona. nine fingerprints and four palmprints. mr. eisenberg. thirteen identifiable prints? mr. latona. that is right. mr. dulles. could i just get caught up. what is this box we have here? mr. eisenberg. this is a box which was found near the window in the tsbd from which the assassin apparently fired, that is, the easternmost window or the south face of the tsbd. yesterday, cartridge cases--and the day before--cartridge cases were discussed which were also found near that window. this box is labeled on there, i believe---- mr. latona. "a." mr. eisenberg. yes; and i think it also says "top box": yes; it says "top box." mr. dulles. this is the "rolling reader?" mr. eisenberg. that is right. mr. dulles. the rolling reader has played quite a role in our testimony. mr. eisenberg. yes; now, this particular box is labeled "top box," and i believe this particular box was on the top of the three boxes, two of which were rolling reader boxes, which were found near the window and which may have been used as a rest by the assassin for his rifle. mr. dulles. as i recall, previous testimony indicates that the rolling reader box had been moved from its normal place---- mr. eisenberg. apparently so. mr. dulles. with the other rolling reader boxes, and put in a position near the window from which it was alleged the shot was fired. mr. eisenberg. apparently so, and, apart from the two boxes--the two rolling reader boxes which were found near the sixth floor window--the regular storage area for the rolling reader boxes was a distance away from the sixth floor window. mr. dulles. yes; i recall that testimony. mr. eisenberg. so you found identifiable prints, mr. latona. were you able to identify any of these prints as belonging to a specific individual? mr. latona. we were able to identify one fingerprint and one palmprint. mr. eisenberg. and whose prints were they? mr. latona. the fingerprint was identified as harvey lee oswald. mr. eisenberg. that is lee harvey oswald? mr. latona. that is right. mr. eisenberg. and the palm? mr. latona. the palmprint was identified also as harvey lee oswald. mr. eisenberg. again lee harvey oswald? mr. latona. that is right. mr. eisenberg. now, again you used, did you, the known print which was marked into evidence earlier? mr. latona. yes. mr. eisenberg. and you used those in all your identifications, i believe? mr. latona. that is right. mr. eisenberg. mr. latona, can you tell us what portion of the palm of lee harvey oswald is reproduced on this box, this carton , as a latent print? mr. latona. i have here a photograph of the palmprint which has an area indicated by a rough red circle showing the approximate area, which is the ulnar area of the left palm. mr. eisenberg. that is the area closest to the little finger? mr. latona. on that side; yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. this is a true photograph which was prepared by you or under your supervision? mr. latona. a true reproduction of the original, which you already have. mr. eisenberg. may i have this admitted as , mr. chairman? mr. dulles. may i ask a question. apparently the red mark on this exhibit on the palm is in a different place, isn't it, a slightly different place? mr. latona. it is a different palm. this is the left palm. mr. eisenberg (addressing mr. dulles). this is the left palm. the other two are right palms. mr. dulles. good, that straightens me out. mr. eisenberg. actually they were both on the ulnar side of the palm? mr. latona. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. and they were both taken on what is commonly called the heel of the palm? mr. dulles. this is a different hand. this is the left hand, and what we have had so far is the right hand on the palmprints. mr. eisenberg. yes, sir. mr. latona. previously we had two palmprints on the right hand. this third one is from the left. mr. eisenberg. may this photograph be admitted as , mr. chairman? mr. dulles. this will be admitted. (the photograph referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. mr. latona, do you have another photograph in your hand there? mr. latona. here i have another photograph, a slight enlargement time and a half, which is a latent palmprint found on the cardboard box marked "a," which is the commission's exhibit . this is indicated by a red arrow. mr. eisenberg. let's hold that just a second and get the photograph admitted. representative boggs (addressing mr. eisenberg). where did these boxes come from? mr. eisenberg. these boxes were located in front of the window from which the assassin apparently fired. there were three boxes stacked immediately in front of the window, of which this exhibit no. was the topmost box, and these were apparently used as a rest by the assassin for positioning his rifle. as you can see, there are several other boxes in the room which will be introduced shortly. mr. dulles. i may say that there was testimony, i don't recall whether you were here at the time, about some boxes called rolling reader, hale. do you recall the testimony on the rolling reader? representative boggs. no. mr. dulles. these boxes were moved from a place on the sixth floor room where a great many rolling reader boxes were placed, and they were put near the window, and a rolling reader--apparently these are cubes, and they are for small children and they roll them out on the floor and they learn how to read the letters of the alphabet and other things from these rolling readers. these boxes, because of their nature--do you know what the blocks are made of? mr. eisenberg. no; i don't. mr. dulles. they weren't solid wood but they were light cubes and therefore presumably these boxes were moved because they were a good deal lighter and easier to handle than other boxes. is that consistent with the testimony as you recall it? mr. eisenberg. yes. representative boggs. were they full when you got them? mr. eisenberg. you will have to ask mr. latona. mr. latona. they were empty. they had been opened and the books removed or the contents, whatever it was. mr. dulles. the contents were apparently these cubes, as we were told, and small children use them and roll them on the floor and then they got the a's and the b's and the c's. representative boggs. in the opening process, this would not have any effect on the fingerprints or the palmprints? mr. latona. it could. i mean in the sense that somebody else's prints, the people opening them if they didn't take the time and effort to protect themselves, they could have left their prints there. i don't know how that was done. mr. dulles. do you recall whether the testimony shows whether the boxes were presumably filled when they were originally moved from their normal place in the book depository to the window? mr. eisenberg. i think they were, although i haven't read the testimony. mr. dulles. i am not sure there is testimony on that point but i think that is the general assumption. mr. eisenberg. based on reproduction photographs we have seen---- mr. latona. that is the understanding that we have, that this was the depository for new material. i think there was new material in these boxes. they were simply stored there. representative boggs. they wouldn't have acted as a very good rest had they been empty. (discussion off the record.) mr. eisenberg. back on the record. mr. chairman, may i have this photograph of the latent palmprint admitted as ? mr. dulles. it shall be admitted. (the photograph referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. can you show us where on the box, the box , this latent palmprint appears? mr. latona. the latent palmprint appears on box a, commission's exhibit . it has been indicated by a red arrow. mr. eisenberg. can you mark that arrow with an "a"? mr. latona. the red arrow is being marked "a." mr. eisenberg. that points to the palmprint of lee harvey oswald--identified by you as being lee harvey oswald's, is that right? mr. latona. that is right. mr. eisenberg. let the record show that mr. dulles and mr. boggs and mr. murray are looking at the actual print marked "a," or marked with an arrow next to which is written the letter "a." mr. murray. i see what appears to be a print; yes. mr. eisenberg. mr. dulles and mr. boggs? mr. dulles. i also see what appears to be a print. representative boggs. i see the same thing. mr. dulles. and it is too big in my opinion to be a fingerprint. mr. eisenberg (addressing mr. latona). did you prepare a photograph also of the fingerprint which appears on this box---- mr. latona. yes; i did. mr. eisenberg. , mr. latona? mr. latona. yes; i did. mr. eisenberg. and is this a true photograph of that fingerprint? mr. latona. it is. mr. eisenberg. may i have this admitted, mr. chairman, as ? mr. dulles. this is a fingerprint now? mr. eisenberg. yes; which also appears on the box that mr. latona just testified as to, . mr. dulles. has he identified what fingerprint? mr. eisenberg. did you testify that this was the fingerprint---- mr. latona. no. mr. eisenberg. did you identify this fingerprint as belonging to a given individual? mr. latona. yes; i did. mr. eisenberg. and that individual was? mr. latona. lee harvey oswald, and it is the right index fingerprint. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman---- mr. dulles. the right index finger. mr. eisenberg. that will be . mr. dulles. admitted. (the fingerprint referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. you also have a photograph of a -finger card showing that print encircled? mr. latona. i do. mr. eisenberg. it is a red circle, and you are handing that to me now? mr. latona. yes. mr. eisenberg. may i have that admitted, mr. chairman, as ? mr. dulles. it may be admitted. (the photograph referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. what portion of the finger of lee harvey oswald does that print represent? mr. latona. it represents what is referred to as the distal phalanx of the right index finger. mr. eisenberg. that is the phalanx or the tip furthest away from the wrist? mr. latona. the palm. mr. eisenberg. or from the palm? mr. latona. that is right. mr. eisenberg. is that a full or partial print of the distal phalanx? mr. latona. that is a partial print. mr. eisenberg. and does it take on the center, or the ulnar or the radial portion of the phalanx? mr. latona. no, that takes actually the central portion of the print. mr. eisenberg. the central portion? mr. latona. the so-called pattern area is disclosed by the latent print. mr. dulles. off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. eisenberg. could you show us, mr. latona, on , where the fingerprint impression that you have just identified is? mr. latona. that appears on one of the ends of the box indicated by a red arrow. mr. eisenberg. could you mark that arrow, "b"? mr. latona. marked "b." mr. eisenberg. mr. dulles, would you care to take a look at that? mr. latona. here you are going to see several clear prints but it is only one that we have identified, and that is the one directly under the arrow. mr. dulles. i see four there, or five. mr. latona. it is the little one here in the middle, right here. mr. dulles. is it this one here, right there? mr. latona. no; the one next to it. mr. dulles. that one there? mr. latona. that is right. mr. dulles. what are all these other fingerprints? mr. latona. they are all other fingerprints. mr. eisenberg. there were a total of identifiable prints on the box, did you say? mr. latona. that is right. those are not oswald's prints. representative boggs. those may have been other people opening the box? mr. dulles. the box was carried around probably. mr. latona. yes. mr. dulles. when it was first put there and moved. mr. eisenberg. could you put your finger on that box, mr. latona, in the way that the finger was placed? mr. dulles. how do you think he was carrying that box? mr. latona. i don't know. mr. eisenberg. is your finger now placed in the way the finger was placed to create the impression? it is pointing with the fingernail towards the arrow and in the same line as the arrow, with just the tip of the finger on the box. mr. dulles. everybody seems to have held that box. mr. latona. it is a little one right there. mr. eisenberg. mr. murray, do you want to take a look? representative boggs. you have not identified any of these others? mr. latona. no. mr. eisenberg. let the record show that commissioners dulles and boggs and mr. murray are looking at that fingerprint, and have apparently satisfied themselves---- mr. murray. the portion shown to me appears to be part of a fingerprint. mr. eisenberg. they have satisfied themselves that the print is on the box. now, therefore, to recapitulate: you found on this carton the left palmprint and the right index fingerprint of lee harvey oswald? mr. latona. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. one other thing. getting back to the palmprint, marked "a," could you show us how a hand would lie to produce that print? mr. latona. in the position of the palm pointing towards the arrow. mr. eisenberg. pointing towards the arrow, that is, in the opposite direction that the arrow points? mr. latona. that is right. mr. eisenberg. but in the same line as the arrow. your hand is parallel with the line but covering that completely? mr. latona. yes. mr. eisenberg. and although it covers it, i would say that the arrow would fall in the midline of the palm, is that right? mr. latona. that is right. mr. eisenberg. now, mr. latona, did you prepare a chart showing some of the points which led you to the conclusion that the latent palmprint found on was identical with the inked palmprint submitted to you by the dallas police? mr. latona. i had charts prepared; yes. mr. eisenberg. these were prepared under your supervision? mr. latona. they were. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, may i have that chart admitted as ? mr. dulles. it will be admitted. (the chart referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. what is the magnification? mr. latona. approximately eight times. mr. eisenberg. is the magnification equal on both sides? mr. latona. both sides; the inked palmprint and latent palmprint both the same. mr. eisenberg. is that true of all of the charts that you have submitted and will be submitting this morning? mr. latona. that is true. mr. eisenberg. mr. latona, could you point out some of these points? i think in the interest of time it would be better if you took several of the points instead of all points you have marked. mr. latona. i believe you will find this will be a little bit more difficult to see in view of the fact that the ridge formations are cut up a little bit more. however---- mr. dulles. would you put that over there. you have identified points of similarity? mr. latona. yes; have been drawn but there are quite a few others. mr. eisenberg. you have marked in other words, is that it, mr. latona? mr. latona. sir? mr. eisenberg. you have marked ? mr. latona. yes. mr. dulles. on this exhibit? mr. latona. that is right. here, for example, is an easy one to show up, this point no. as compared to point no. here, and its relationship to point no. , the relationship of point no. to point no. . looking over here we find that there is a relationship between points nos. and , one, two, three, four, five, one, two, three, four, five. then there's a relationship of one ridge between point --or rather between point and point , both points going in the same general direction. point no. is below point no. . also the point no. is what is referred to as a short ending ridge. we look over here and we see that point no. is a short ending ridge. point no. is below that. then we notice that there is another point which is one point removed--one ridge removed--from point no. which we have not charted, which shows up very definitely in that position there. then there is point no. , which is another piece of a ridge, point no. here. mr. eisenberg. mr. latona, when you testify in court do you generally discuss every marked point? mr. latona. no. mr. eisenberg. just the more salient points? mr. latona. just to give a general idea as to how these comparisons are made, more or less for demonstration purposes, because the actual comparison is the same, the relationship is a determination of the relationship with the others, and just by an examination, that would be borne out if each and every point was gone into in detail. mr. eisenberg. with you permission, mr. chairman, i would like to move on to the next chart since we do have witnesses waiting who have to return to new york. mr. dulles. right. mr. eisenberg. did you prepare a chart, mr. latona, of the fingerprint---- mr. latona. yes. mr. eisenberg. which was found on the carton ? mr. latona. here is the chart, which is of the right index fingerprint of lee harvey oswald. mr. eisenberg. was this prepared by you or under your supervision? mr. latona. they were. the enlargement here is approximately times both in the inked print and in the latent print. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, may i have this admitted as ? mr. dulles. it shall be admitted. (the chart referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. would you discuss again just a few of the more salient points, mr. latona? mr. latona. here, starting first of all with the apparent pattern type itself, it is readily discernible. you can see that these are what we term whorl-type prints. this point no. , for example, is a small ridge which terminates at this point which has been indicated by the figure no. . it is related by being joined onto point no. , which is the end of the black line going upward. then one ridge to the left, one ridge removed and to the left and a little bit above is point no. . here the same thing occurs in the inked print. point no. is related to point no. by one ridge removed and is upward and one ridge to the left. mr. dulles. and similarly you have identified up to points of similarity? mr. latona. these you can see rather easily that they appear. mr. eisenberg. if there are no further questions on the carton i will move on to another exhibit. i now hand you a carton, somewhat larger in area than the which we were just discussing, with various markings on it which i won't discuss, but which is marked box "d" in red pencil at the upper left-hand corner of the bottom of the box. are you familiar with this carton, mr. latona? mr. dulles. has that been admitted? mr. eisenberg. it has not so far been admitted. mr. latona. this box d, i received this along with box a for purposes of examining for latent prints. mr. eisenberg. was that examined by you or under your supervision for that purpose? mr. latona. yes, it was. mr. eisenberg. when was that received? mr. latona. that was received on the th of november . mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, may i have this admitted as ? mr. dulles. what date? mr. latona. th. mr. eisenberg. that is days after the assassination? mr. latona. yes. mr. eisenberg. may i have this admitted as ? mr. dulles. it shall be admitted. (the box referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. dulles. can you identify it in some further way? i think there are some markings on here. mr. eisenberg. there is "box d." it is a little hard to read. it says " n th&do"---- mr. dulles. "new people and progress." mr. eisenberg. apparently referring to the name of the textbook. this is not a rolling reader carton. mr. dulles. no. mr. eisenberg. mr. latona, when you received this box, could you tell whether it had been previously examined for latent fingerprints? mr. latona. a portion of it had. mr. eisenberg. and can you tell us what portion had been? mr. latona. the bottom evidently, because a piece had been cut out. mr. eisenberg. you are pointing to a place on the bottom of the box which is to the left of the point at which i have affixed the sticker "commission exhibit no. ," immediately to the left of that point? mr. latona. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. was that portion of the box given to you? mr. latona. yes, it was. mr. eisenberg. with the box? mr. latona. at the time we got the box. mr. eisenberg. i think i have that. i now hand you what appears to be a portion of a cardboard carton and a piece of tape with various writings, included among which is "from top of box oswald apparently sat on to fire gun." do you recognize this piece of paper, mr. latona? mr. latona. yes, i do. this is a piece of paper that evidently had been cut from the box. mr. eisenberg. does that fit into the box? mr. latona. it does. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, may i have this admitted as ? mr. dulles. it shall be admitted as . (the piece of carton referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. mr. latona, did you find any identifiable prints on the cardboard carton ? mr. latona. yes; in addition to this one which has been cut out and which had been covered by a piece of lifting tape, there were two fingerprints developed in addition to that one. mr. eisenberg. two identifiable fingerprints? mr. latona. that is right. mr. eisenberg. palmprints? mr. latona. no; they were fingerprints. mr. eisenberg. i mean were there any palmprints? mr. latona. there were no palmprints. mr. eisenberg. how did you process this box? mr. latona. by the use of iodine fumes and silver nitrate solution. mr. eisenberg. did you find evidence of processing prior to your receipt apart from the exhibit which is now ? mr. latona. yes; this particular area which has been cut out had been processed with powder. mr. eisenberg. was there powder on other areas of the box? mr. latona. i don't believe there was. mr. eisenberg. did you identify any of the prints on the carton as belonging to a specific individual? mr. latona. the two fingerprints which were developed on commission exhibit by silver nitrate are not identified as anyone's, but the print which appears on the piece which was cut out has been identified. mr. eisenberg. that is ? mr. latona. of exhibit --which is exhibit ---- mr. eisenberg. yes? mr. latona. which came from exhibit has been identified as a palmprint of harvey lee oswald, the right palmprint. mr. eisenberg. that is lee harvey oswald, mr. latona? mr. latona. that is right. lee harvey oswald. mr. eisenberg. now, mr. latona, can you tell how this was developed, this print on ? mr. latona. the appearance is it was developed with black powder. mr. eisenberg. you testified before concerning the aging of fingerprints. considering the material on which this print was developed, , do you think you could form an opinion, any opinion at all, concerning the freshness or staleness of this print? mr. latona. bearing in mind the fact that this is an absorbent material, and realizing, of course, that a print when it is left on a material of this type it starts to soak in. now, the reason that we in the fbi do not use powder is because of the fact that in a short period of time the print will soak in so completely that there won't be any moisture left. accordingly when you brush powder across there won't be anything developed. under circumstances, bearing in mind that here the box was powdered, and a print was developed with powder, the conclusion is that this is comparatively a fresh print. otherwise, it would not have developed. we know, too, that we developed two other fingerprints on this by chemicals. how long a time had elapsed since the time this print was placed on there until the time that it would have soaked in so that the resulting examination would have been negative i don't know, but that could not have been too long. mr. eisenberg. when you say "not too long," would you say not weeks, or not days, or not hours? mr. latona. very definitely i'd say not days. i'd say not weeks. mr. eisenberg. and not days, either? mr. latona. no; i don't believe so, because i don't think that the print on here that is touched on a piece of cardboard will stay on a piece of cardboard for days. mr. eisenberg. would you bring that any closer? mr. latona. i am afraid i couldn't come any closer. mr. eisenberg. days? mr. latona. that is right. mr. eisenberg. that would be the outermost limit that you can testify concerning? mr. latona. we have run some tests, and usually a minimum of hours on a material of this kind, depending upon how heavy the sweat was, to try to say within a -hour period would be a guess on my part. mr. eisenberg. i am not sure i understand your reference to a minimum of hours. mr. latona. we have conducted tests with various types of materials as to how long it could be before we would not develop a latent print. mr. eisenberg. yes? mr. latona. assuming that the same print was left on an object or a series of similar prints were left on an object, and powdering them, say, at intervals of every hours or so, we would fail to develop a latent print of that particular type on that particular surface, say, within a -hour period. mr. eisenberg. so that is a maximum of hours? mr. latona. that is right. mr. eisenberg. you would not care, you say, though---- mr. latona. no. mr. eisenberg. to employ that here, but your experiments produced a maximum time of hours. mr. latona. bear that out; yes. like i say, undoubtedly this print was left on there--between the time that the print was left and the time that it was powdered could not have been too long a time. otherwise, the print would not have developed with the clarity that it did. mr. eisenberg. you identified that, i believe, as the right palmprint of lee harvey oswald? mr. latona. that is right. mr. eisenberg. what portion of the right palm was that, mr. latona? mr. latona. it happens to be the center part of the palm close to the wrist. mr. eisenberg. can you show how the palm must have lain on the , the part of the carton, to produce that print? mr. latona. it would have been placed on there in this fashion. mr. eisenberg. now, you are pointing so that your hand is parallel with the long axis of the box, and at right angles to the short axis? mr. latona. yes. mr. eisenberg. and just the bottom of the palm rests on the box, isn't that correct? mr. latona. that is right. mr. eisenberg. now, before going to this fingerprint or this palmprint rather, mr. latona, we have palmprints, a palmprint here on this , and a finger and a palm on , and those are the only identified prints on these two objects. is it possible that lee harvey oswald could have touched these two cartons at other places without leaving identifiable prints? mr. latona. he could have. mr. eisenberg. and how would that come about? mr. latona. simply by the fact that he did not have any material on his finger at the time he touched the box. mr. eisenberg. so that you can touch a carton at one point and leave a print, and at another point not, is that right? mr. latona. very definitely, that is true. mr. eisenberg. and when you say he doesn't have any material, how would that come about? will he have used his material up, or not produced material with the particular finger? mr. latona. he could have used it up and failed to produce it fast enough to have left anything at the time he touched that. mr. eisenberg. is it uncommon or common for you to find an object which a person has touched more than once but only left one identifiable print? mr. latona. it is very common. mr. eisenberg. it is common? mr. latona. especially in, for example, the reading of a letter, a long letter where the person would run his finger and index finger down the edges. you might find prints at the top and then you don't find any at the bottom. mr. eisenberg. of course. i am not asking you to draw an inference whether or not oswald touched the box in more than one place, but i just want to explore whether he could have touched the box in more than one place---- mr. latona. yes; he could. mr. eisenberg. and not left a second imprint? mr. latona. he very definitely could have and not left one. mr. dulles. may i add for the record, commission exhibit apparently contained books of scott foresman and co., from scott, foresman & co., "building for today, pioneering for tomorrow." mr. eisenberg. mr. latona, did you take a photograph of the lift, or the print rather, which we see in ? mr. latona. yes. mr. eisenberg. and this is an accurate photograph? mr. latona. it is, it is a true reproduction of the print which appears on commission exhibit and it is enlarged about a time and a half. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, may i have this admitted as ? mr. dulles. it will be admitted. (the photograph referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , for identification and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. did you take a photograph of the known palmprint and make a red circle around it, as you had in previous cases? mr. latona. yes. mr. eisenberg. to show what portion of the palm of oswald that was? mr. latona. showing a portion of the right palm. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, may i have that admitted? mr. dulles. it will be admitted as . (the photograph referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. by the way, mr. latona, on there seems to be a scotch tape or cellophane tape over the fingerprint, is that right? mr. latona. that is right. mr. eisenberg. now, apparently there was no attempt at a lift being made here? mr. latona. no. this evidently was a print which was developed directly on the paper itself. the employing of that adhesive material like scotch tape was to protect the print itself. had they tried to lift that up i am afraid they would have spoiled that because they would have lifted the fibers of the cardboard along with it. mr. eisenberg. is that why, you think, they didn't lift it? mr. latona. yes; very definitely. mr. eisenberg. by the way, did the dallas police take photographs of the lift which we had earlier, the lift which was apparently taken from exhibit , or to put the question--actually i am not interested in whether they took photographs of the lift; do you know whether they took photographs of the print? mr. latona. i don't know. mr. eisenberg. is it normal to take a photograph of a print before it is lifted? mr. latona. if it is fairly visible, yes. mr. eisenberg. what is the purpose of the lift, as opposed to a photograph reproducing the print? mr. latona. the purpose of the lift is simply to insure the probability of getting a good record of the print, because a lot of times when you photograph a print, you have to go through the process of having it developed and then printed and at the same time by lifting it you may, that would be an additional security that you are getting the best results. then you take your choice as to which result turns out the best. mr. eisenberg. so these are alternative routes? mr. latona. that is right. mr. eisenberg. lifting and photographing? mr. latona. that is right. well, primarily our recommendation in the fbi is simply every procedure to photograph and then lift. then you choose the one which you feel gives you the best results in your final photograph. mr. eisenberg. returning to the palmprint on , taken from the carton , did you make up a chart showing some of the points---- mr. latona. yes. mr. eisenberg. which led you to your conclusion that that print was the print of lee harvey oswald? mr. latona. yes, i did. mr. eisenberg. and was that prepared by you or under your supervision? mr. latona. prepared by me--under my supervision. mr. eisenberg. may i have this chart admitted as ? mr. dulles. it will be admitted as exhibit . (the chart referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , for identification and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. again, without going into detail, mr. latona, could you show us some of the more salient points which led you to your conclusion that the print on was the palmprint of lee harvey oswald? mr. latona. the easiest points visible here, right offhand, point no. which is a black line that goes upward and its relationship to point no. . this is known as the short ending ridge as is seen here. its relation to point no. . point no. is a black line going upward. point no. is a black line going downward and there are one, two, three, ridges which are between the two. over here in the latent print you find no. which is a black line going upward. it is a short line to the other end of the point no. , and three ridges intervene between that and point no. , which is going downward. one ridge to the right and going in an upward direction is point no. -- , , , , . mr. dulles. and you identified points of similarity? mr. latona. that is right. mr. dulles. between the inked palmprint of lee harvey oswald and this palmprint taken from this cardboard carton? mr. latona. that is right. mr. dulles. what is this white line that goes up through each? mr. latona. this is a crease in the center of the palm, a flexure crease of that area. mr. dulles. the palm did not touch the carton at that point? mr. latona. that is right. mr. dulles. and those two creases are in approximately the same location in the photograph and in the latent palmprint? mr. latona. very definitely. mr. eisenberg. mr. latona, i now hand you two further cartons, which are labeled box b and box c, the b box being a rolling reader, and the c box being also a scott, foresman box with printing on the back, "the three pre-primers," apparently the name of the book contained in this box. mr. dulles. primers. (discussion off the record.) mr. eisenberg. mr. latona, did you examine box b, which i have handed to you, to determine whether it had on it any identifiable latent fingerprints? mr. latona. yes, sir; i did. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, i would like that box admitted as . mr. dulles. it shall be admitted. (commission exhibit no. was marked and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. how many identifiable prints did you find on this carton? mr. latona. there were seven fingerprints and two palmprints developed on commission exhibit . mr. eisenberg. that is, identifiable prints? mr. latona. identifiable prints. mr. eisenberg. did you identify any of those prints as belonging to a specific person? mr. latona. i did not. mr. eisenberg. may i have marked, box c, mr. chairman? did you also examine box c? mr. latona. box c, yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. may i have that admitted as ? mr. dulles. it shall be admitted as commission exhibit . (commission exhibit no. was marked and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. did you find any latent identifiable prints on ? mr. latona. i found two fingerprints and one palmprint. mr. eisenberg. did you identify them as belonging to a specific individual? mr. latona. i did not identify them. mr. eisenberg. now, did you attempt to identify them with lee harvey oswald's known prints? mr. latona. yes; and they are not lee harvey oswald's prints. mr. eisenberg. when did you receive cartons and ? mr. latona. i received cartons and november . mr. eisenberg. that is, with the earlier cartons, boxes a and d, which have received commission exhibit numbers? mr. latona. yes. mr. eisenberg. had they been processed? could you tell whether they had been processed for latent fingerprints? mr. latona. i couldn't tell whether they had been or not. mr. eisenberg. you could not tell? mr. latona. could not tell. they had the appearance of not having been processed. mr. eisenberg. how did you process them in your laboratory, mr. latona? mr. latona. iodine fumes and chemicals. mr. eisenberg. did the prints react to the iodine fumes at all? mr. latona. no. mr. eisenberg. just to the chemicals? mr. latona. the silver nitrate prints which were developed. mr. dulles. do you mean that the prints were of such a caliber and character that you couldn't make anything out of them, or that you couldn't identify them with any known---- mr. latona. they are not identical with those that they have been compared with. mr. dulles. but the prints themselves were perfectly good prints? mr. latona. oh, yes; the prints are good but they are not lee harvey oswald's. mr. eisenberg. at any subsequent time have you attempted to identify any of these prints on the boxes as belonging to any person other than lee harvey oswald? mr. latona. yes. mr. eisenberg. and how did you proceed with this attempt? mr. latona. an effort was made to locate the fingerprints of all people employed in that building in which these cartons were found, on the basis of the names and birth dates which were furnished, and we located the fingerprints of of those people who work in that building. mr. eisenberg. yes? mr. latona. and the fingerprints of those employees were compared with all of the latent prints which were developed on these boxes. they do not belong to any of those people. mr. dulles. may i ask for my information here, mr. eisenberg, were all of these cartons, including the last two admitted in evidence, were they found in the general area of the sixth floor of the building from which it is believed the shot was fired? mr. eisenberg. yes; mr. chairman. i believe that the two boxes which were just admitted into evidence as and were two of the three boxes which were apparently used as a rest by the assassin. they were apparently either the two bottom boxes, or there might have been an arrangement such as that one was stacked on top of the other, and the box earlier admitted into evidence was some evidence of that. mr. dulles. and in any event, does our evidence indicate that these boxes were moved from their normal position on the sixth floor to a new position near the window? mr. eisenberg. again i believe it does indicate that at least the rolling reader carton was moved. there was some other movement of boxes that morning, and i think they are still in the process of tracing down all of the movements. mr. dulles. thank you. mr. eisenberg. i have a letter, mr. latona, from mr. hoover to mr. rankin, the general counsel of our commission, setting forth the names of the employees of the tsbd whose prints were compared in this recent attempt you mentioned. would you recognize the names? mr. latona. yes; i would because i believe that report is based on my report. mr. eisenberg. if i read the name could you verify whether these individuals were the ones whose prints you checked out against the latents? mr. latona. yes. mr. eisenberg. haddon spurgeon aiken? mr. latona. yes. mr. eisenberg. jack charles cason? mr. latona. yes. mr. eisenberg. warren cason? mr. latona. yes. mr. eisenberg. jack edwin doughterty? mr. latona. yes. mr. eisenberg. charles douglas givens? mr. latona. yes. mr. eisenberg. mary madeline hollis? mr. latona. yes. mr. eisenberg. james earl jarman? mr. latona. yes. mr. eisenberg. spaulden earnest jones? mr. latona. yes. mr. eisenberg. herbert l. junker? mr. latona. yes. mr. eisenberg. billy nolan lovelady? mr. latona. yes. mr. eisenberg. joe r. molina? mr. latona. yes. mr. eisenberg. edward shields? mr. latona. yes. mr. eisenberg. joyce maurine stansberg? mr. latona. yes. mr. eisenberg. roy sansom truly? mr. latona. yes. mr. eisenberg. lloyd r. viles? mr. latona. yes. mr. eisenberg. troy eugene west? mr. latona. correct. mr. eisenberg. now as i understand it, these employees were not selected because any particular suspicion fell on them, but merely because of all the employees, those were the ones whose cards you knew you had in your files? mr. latona. that is right. mr. eisenberg. and it was just accidental---- mr. latona. that is right. mr. eisenberg. that those employees were picked? mr. latona. that is right. mr. eisenberg. there is no inference that there was any suspicion whatsoever attaching to any of these employees? mr. latona. that is right. mr. dulles. we believe all these employees had access to the sixth floor of the building? mr. eisenberg. we are still looking into that question. this is a recent effort on your part? mr. latona. yes. mr. dulles. is that letter to be admitted as evidence or not? mr. eisenberg. i think not---- mr. dulles. right. mr. eisenberg. since i don't think the witness could identify the actual letter. mr. dulles. it will be in the files, though? mr. eisenberg. yes; it is a commission document in the files. mr. latona, i believe that out of the total number of six prints you have identified today as being lee harvey oswald's, four were palmprints, is that correct? mr. latona. three. mr. eisenberg. three? mr. latona. three, two rights and one left, three palms and three fingers. mr. eisenberg. there was a palm on---- mr. latona. the bag. mr. eisenberg. a palm on the weapon? mr. latona. one on the gun and on this box. mr. eisenberg. four and two then? mr. latona. three. mr. eisenberg. there was a palm on each box? mr. latona. that is right. mr. eisenberg. that is two palms? mr. latona. one off the gun. mr. eisenberg. that is three palms, and the palm on the wrapping paper bag. here is the wrapping paper bag. mr. latona. one palm and one finger. mr. eisenberg. that is four palms all together? mr. latona. four palms, okay. mr. eisenberg. is that correct? mr. latona. yes. mr. eisenberg. now, is the proportion of recovered fingerprints here an unusual one in your estimation? that is, we usually hear about fingerprints rather than palmprints, whereas here we have four palm and two finger prints. is there anything unusual in this? mr. latona. well, in that manner there is because--well no, i guess not. it is just as logical to assume that a person will leave a palmprint as a fingerprint. it depends upon primarily the way he handles it. objects of this type being so large you can probably expect to get a palmprint. mr. dulles. and what he is handling? mr. latona. that is right. on the other hand, if the object is small there is probably no reason for the palm to touch it. for example, in a rearview mirror; ordinarily on a rearview mirror of these stolen cars we process you get mostly fingerprints. on the other hand if you get back into the trunk, the chances of something of a large nature, a stolen wheel, or something of that type, you will get finger and palm prints. cartons like this, where you have to use both hands to pick it up because of its weight, the probability is that you will get a palmprint as well as a fingerprint. mr. eisenberg. would the same thing be true of a heavy rifle? mr. latona. sure, very definitely. mr. eisenberg. and if the bag contained a heavy object inside? mr. latona. that is right, it would take more than just the finger area of the hand to hold on to it. mr. eisenberg. mr. latona, did you prepare at my request a series of photographs for transmission by me to the new york city police department--photographs of finger and palm prints found on some of the evidence we have been looking at? mr. latona. i furnished you photographs of all of the remaining unidentified latent prints from these cartons. mr. eisenberg. and also did you furnish me a photograph--just of the remaining unidentified prints? mr. latona. no; including the ones which i identified. mr. eisenberg. did you also furnish me with a photograph of the two prints you identified--which parenthetically were the only two identifiable prints--on the brown wrapping paper bag? mr. latona. yes. mr. eisenberg. which is exhibit . and of the lift from the weapon ? mr. latona. yes; i did. mr. eisenberg. and you also furnished me with photographs of the finger and palmprints of lee harvey oswald---- mr. latona. yes. mr. eisenberg. as transmitted to you by the dallas office of the fbi? mr. latona. yes. mr. eisenberg. can you identify these as the photographs you furnished to me? (discussion off the record.) mr. eisenberg. have you identified the envelope marked "two photos box d"? mr. latona. yes; i have. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, may i have that admitted as ? mr. dulles. yes. (commission exhibit no. was marked and received in evidence.) mr. dulles. i think there ought to be some cross-identification inside the envelope. because obviously if you take that envelope and put anything in it, we ought to have the others identified properly. mr. eisenberg. there are two photographs within this. let the record show there are two photographs within this envelope, marked " " and " ," and i believe these are the only photographs so marked. each photograph is marked with an individual number, so these are the only two photographs in the entire set marked " " and " ." mr. dulles. excellent. mr. eisenberg. now i have an envelope marked " photos box a." have you identified these photographs mr. latona? mr. latona. yes; i have. mr. eisenberg. may i have these photographs admitted as group ? mr. dulles. it shall be. (commission exhibit no. was marked and received in evidence.) mr. dulles. how many enclosures in that? mr. eisenberg. there are enclosures and numbered as follows: , , , , , , , , , . mr. dulles. there is no ? mr. eisenberg. no, sir. mr. dulles. it shall be admitted as commission exhibit---- mr. eisenberg. . mr. dulles. that is with the enclosures as noted and identified. mr. eisenberg. i have here photographs--an envelope--labeled "photographs, fingerprints, and palmprints, lee harvey oswald." these are accurate reproductions? mr. latona. they are. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, with your permission i will later put subnumbers on these. mr. dulles. seven numbers with seven enclosures? mr. eisenberg. no, sir; three enclosures. mr. dulles. with three enclosures? mr. eisenberg. and i will number the -print card--first may i have the envelope with the photographs admitted as ? mr. dulles. the envelope shall be admitted with---- mr. eisenberg. i will subnumber the cards with your permission at a later time. mr. dulles. how many enclosures in it, three? mr. eisenberg. three. i will subnumber the -print card -a, the right palm -b, and left palm -c. mr. dulles. it shall be admitted. (commission exhibits nos. -a, -b, and -c were marked, and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. i have an envelope with photos marked "one photo of lift 'underside of gun barrel.'" is this a photograph which you provided me? mr. latona. it is. mr. eisenberg. may i have this admitted as , mr. chairman? mr. dulles. with how many enclosures? mr. eisenberg. just one. mr. dulles. just one enclosure. (commission exhibit no. was marked, and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. now, an envelope marked "two photos brown bag (wrapping paper)." this is the two photos, mr. latona, which you gave to me? mr. latona. it is. mr. eisenberg. may i have that admitted as , mr. chairman? mr. dulles. it shall be admitted as with one enclosure in the envelope. is it one or two? mr. eisenberg. there are two enclosures. mr. dulles. with two in the envelope. mr. eisenberg. one has printing on it and with your permission i will mark that " -a," and the other has no printing and i will mark it " -b." mr. dulles. it will be so admitted. (commission exhibits nos. -a and -b were marked, and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. now an envelope marked "eight photos box b." this is, mr. latona, the photographs you provided me? mr. latona. it is. mr. eisenberg. may i have this admitted as exhibit , mr. chairman, collectively? mr. dulles. it shall be admitted as commission exhibit no. with---- mr. eisenberg. with eight enclosures---- mr. dulles. eight enclosures. mr. eisenberg. marked " "--the next one has scratched out and also appearing on it-- for the third enclosure, , , , , and . mr. dulles. with the numbers as indicated in the record. (commission exhibit no. was marked, and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. and finally an envelope of the same size, marked "three photos, box c." mr. latona, these are the photos you gave me? mr. latona. yes; they are. mr. eisenberg. may i have these admitted as , mr. chairman? mr. dulles. it will be admitted as exhibit , with how many enclosures? mr. eisenberg. there are three enclosures. mr. dulles. and the three enclosures; are they identified in any way? mr. eisenberg. yes, sir; they are subnumbered , and . mr. dulles. with the subnumbers , and . (commission exhibit no. was marked, and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. are all these photographs accurate reproductions of the prints appearing on the objects whose name is on the front of the envelope in which the photographs are stored? mr. latona. they are. mr. eisenberg. they were taken by you or under your supervision? mr. latona. they were. mr. eisenberg. can you identify by number, mr. latona, the photographs of box a which contain prints of lee harvey oswald? mr. latona. i will have to do it in a negative fashion and tell you that it is not , , , , , , , or . mr. eisenberg. then it would be no. which is in that sequence? mr. latona. yes. mr. eisenberg. and did you mention ? mr. latona. i did not. mr. eisenberg. so would also be an identified print in that sequence? mr. latona. that is right. mr. eisenberg. did you print anything on the back of these photographs, mr. latona? mr. latona. at the time i gave you the photographs i marked nothing on them. mr. eisenberg. so that any printing here would have been put on subsequent to the time you prepared them? mr. latona. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. referring specifically to a photograph i take at random, which is no. , is this your handwriting? mr. latona. it is not. mr. eisenberg. none of the printing appearing on the back of that photograph? mr. latona. it is not. mr. eisenberg. let the record state that, as will be dealt with later, this printing was put on by mr. mandella of the new york police department. now in the case of box d, of which there are two photographs, and , could you state which was the photograph of oswald's print? mr. latona. thirteen. mr. eisenberg. just to reiterate, in no case did you put writing on the back of these photographs? mr. latona. i did not. mr. eisenberg. mr. latona, did anyone else in the fbi examine the objects which you have been discussing today---- mr. latona. yes. mr. eisenberg. to determine whether the fingerprints of lee harvey oswald appeared on them? mr. latona. yes. mr. eisenberg. what was that person's name? mr. latona. his name is ronald g. wittmus. mr. eisenberg. was his examination conducted independently of yours? mr. latona. it was. mr. eisenberg. who conducted the examination first? mr. latona. in the case of the wrapping paper, i did. in the case of the boxes i believe he did. mr. eisenberg. and the rifle? mr. latona. i conducted the examination of the rifle. mr. eisenberg. the lift from the rifle? mr. latona. yes; directly. mr. eisenberg. and the---- mr. latona. brown wrapping paper. mr. eisenberg. in any case when you conducted your examination first did you tell wittmus of your conclusions? mr. latona. i did not. mr. eisenberg. when mr. wittmus conducted his examination first did he tell you of his conclusions? mr. latona. no. mr. eisenberg. were his conclusions the same as yours? mr. latona. ultimately, yes. mr. eisenberg. when you say, "ultimately"? mr. latona. when the whole thing was completed. mr. dulles. there was no difference of views between you at any stage? mr. latona. no, sir. mr. eisenberg. did anyone who examined these various objects--as to which you have testified--in the fbi laboratory come to a conclusion different from the one you did? mr. latona. they did not. mr. eisenberg. were there any identifications of fingerprints as being lee harvey oswald's in addition to the ones which you have given us? mr. latona. there were a number of identifications effected with latent prints developed on personal effects. mr. eisenberg. no, sir; on the material you have testified as to today. mr. latona. no; there were no others. mr. eisenberg. were any prints found--were the three fragmentary prints found on the rifle, which were not sufficient for purposes of identification, in any way inconsistent with the prints of oswald which you found? mr. latona. very definitely, no. i might point out that actually what was visible was consistent, in the sense that even though there were no ridge formations available for purposes of making a positive conclusion, the indications were that the pattern types were there, were consistent with the pattern types which were on the hands of lee harvey oswald. mr. dulles. as far as you know the conclusions of the texas police authorities who examined these objects, were your conclusions the same as theirs, or was there any differences between you on this subject? mr. latona. frankly, i don't know what there conclusion was. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, i have no further questions. mr. dulles. have you any questions, mr. murray? mr. murray. i have not. mr. dulles. i have no further questions. thank you very much indeed, mr. latona. you have been very helpful. i have learned a great deal myself. mr. latona. thank you very much. testimony of arthur mandella, accompanied by lt. joseph a. mooney, new york police department, bureau of criminal identification mr. dulles. mr. mandella, will you raise your right hand. do you swear that the testimony you give before this commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. mandella. i do. mr. dulles. thank you. mr. eisenberg. mr. mandella, could you give us your full name and position? mr. mandella. arthur mandella. i am a detective on the new york police department and i work at the bureau of criminal identification in that department. mr. eisenberg. could you briefly outline your qualifications as a fingerprint identification expert, mr. mandella? mr. mandella. in to i was a fingerprint technician in the u.s. navy. my principal duties were the classification and filing of fingerprints, the developing and photographing of latent fingerprints found at crime scenes, the comparison of latent fingerprints with suspects, and the searching of fingerprint files in general. from to i was employed by the u.s. government as a criminal investigator. however, my principal duties were the lifting and developing and identification of latent fingerprints, also the preparation of fingerprint exhibits for court presentation. from to the present i have been employed by the new york police department and assigned to the bureau of criminal identification as a fingerprint technician and performing the same duties that i just outlined. during these past years i have been examining not only fingerprints but palmprints and infant footprints as well. i graduated from the following fingerprint schools: in , the u.s. naval air station; in i graduated from the institute of applied sciences, which is a fingerprint school, fingerprint and identification school; in i graduated from the new york police fingerprint school at the police academy; and in i attended an advanced latent fingerprint course conducted by the fbi at the new york police academy. i am a fingerprint instructor for the new york police department bureau of criminal identification and lecture at various hospitals relative to the proper techniques involved in footprinting the newborn. i am a qualified fingerprint expert and have testified in new york state and federal courts, including court-martials, relative to all phases of fingerprints, palmprints, and footprints. mr. eisenberg. could you venture a guess as to how many identifications you have been called upon to make in the course of your work? mr. mandella. general identifications, i suppose, it runs into many thousands. it is hard to pick a number. but it is certainly well into the thousands of examinations. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, may this witness be permitted to testify as an expert witness on the subject of fingerprints? mr. dulles. yes; he may. mr. eisenberg. mr. mandella, did you at my request examine certain photographs of latent prints and compare them with photographs of inked or known prints to determine whether there were identities between the known and latent prints? mr. mandella. yes; i did. mr. eisenberg. i hand you commission exhibits , , , , , , and . could you briefly look through these and determine whether these are the photographs which you examined? as you finish an item, could you take a look at the commission number and verify that you looked at the photographs in that commission envelope? mr. mandella. yes; i have examined the photographs contained in commission exhibit no. . mr. dulles. i wonder if you would just state the number, in each case, in each envelope? mr. mandella. in commission exhibit there are photos, photographs. and i have also examined commission exhibit no. , which is one photograph. i also examined commission exhibit no. , which is two photographs. i have also examined commission exhibit no. , which is two photographs. i have examined commission exhibit no. , which contains three photographs. i have examined commission exhibit no. , which contains eight photographs. i have also examined commission exhibit no. , which contains three photographs. mr. eisenberg. contains photographs of inked prints, is that correct? mr. mandella. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. the standard -finger chart and a right and left palmprint? mr. mandella. yes. mr. eisenberg. which you have been informed by me and you see on the writing on these charts are the prints of lee harvey oswald? mr. mandella. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. do you have any other knowledge that these are the prints of lee harvey oswald? mr. mandella. no; none whatsoever. mr. eisenberg. and the remaining prints are photographs of what you would call latent prints? mr. mandella. yes; they are. mr. eisenberg. did you make markings on the backs of these prints, mr. mandella? mr. mandella. yes; on quite a few of them i did. however, not all of them. mr. eisenberg. and you made those markings on the basis of--in your own hand printing? mr. mandella. my own hand printing, for certain observations i wanted recorded. mr. dulles. what is the nature of the marking? mr. eisenberg. let's take a sample. i will pull one out at random from commission exhibit . the topmost card says "box b," which corresponds to the label or the envelope --and that is no. . mr. dulles. will you show those to the witness and see if he identifies his own writing? mr. mandella. yes; i have made these notations. yes; i do recognize these. mr. eisenberg. the next one says "box b" and "negative--same as box 'd' no. ." mr. mandella. yes. mr. eisenberg. you have seen these as you flipped through to identify that these are the same photographs? mr. mandella. yes. mr. eisenberg. let the record show that these photographs are photographs of latent prints taken by or under the supervision of mr. sebastian latona, and he has just testified that these photographs were taken of objects which were identified earlier in commission proceedings. mr. latona transmitted these photographs to me directly, and i in turn transmitted them to mr. mandella and mr. mooney, who is also present in this hearing room. mr. mandella, do you know what total number of identifiable latent prints were contained in these exhibits that you just identified--exclusive of , which contained the inked or known finger and palm prints? mr. mandella. no; but i have this outline here. mr. eisenberg. just approximately would you say how many identifiable prints there were? mr. mandella. thirty. mr. eisenberg. some odd prints? mr. mandella. some . mr. eisenberg. and did you identify certain of those prints as being the finger or palm prints of lee harvey oswald? mr. mandella. yes; i did. mr. eisenberg. could you tell us which of those prints you so identified? mr. mandella. there was a photograph, a photograph of the underside of the gun barrel, commission exhibit no.---- mr. eisenberg. that is commission exhibit no. , and i will hand you that photograph now. you are referring to this photograph? mr. mandella. yes. mr. eisenberg. and can you read the writing on the back of that? mr. mandella. "right palm oswald underside gun barrel." mr. eisenberg. is that in your handwriting? mr. mandella. yes; it is in my handwriting. mr. eisenberg. did you determine what portion of the right palm that was, mr. mandella? mr. mandella. yes; it is the right side of the right palm, this area right here. mr. eisenberg. that is the ulnar portion? mr. mandella. pardon? mr. eisenberg. is that sometimes called the ulnar portion? mr. mandella. yes; the ulnar side, or the small-bone side; yes. mr. eisenberg. did you make any other identifications? mr. mandella. yes; i did. mr. eisenberg. could you give the next one, please? mr. mandella. the photo marked "brown bag wrapping paper" exhibit no.---- mr. eisenberg. that is exhibit , and that exhibit contains two photographs which i now hand you, which are marked -a and -b? mr. mandella. yes. mr. eisenberg. and did you identify the prints in those photographs? mr. mandella. yes; on photograph no. ---- mr. eisenberg. could you refer to the print on the back, -a or b? mr. mandella. on -b, as i called it, photo , is the no. finger which is the left index finger of lee harvey oswald. mr. eisenberg. and do you have a note on the back of that picture? mr. mandella. yes; i do. mr. eisenberg. can you read us that? mr. mandella. "left index, oswald brown bag wrapping paper." mr. eisenberg. and that is in your handwriting? mr. mandella. yes; it is. mr. eisenberg. can you say what portion of the left index finger of lee harvey oswald that is? mr. mandella. it is the bulb of the finger, a little to the right. mr. eisenberg. that is, by bulb you mean the central portion of the distal phalanx? mr. mandella. the central portion to the right. mr. eisenberg. of the distal phalanx? mr. mandella. yes; the flesh joint; yes. mr. eisenberg. and -a? mr. mandella. commission exhibit no. , as i call it, photo no. , is a palmprint and i identified this as the right side of the right palm of lee harvey oswald. mr. eisenberg. the right side would again be the ulnar? mr. mandella. it would be the ulnar side, yes. mr. eisenberg. the little finger side? mr. mandella. yes. mr. eisenberg. that also has writing on the back of it, does it? mr. mandella. yes; it does. mr. eisenberg. can you read that to us? mr. mandella. "right palm, oswald brown bag wrapping paper." mr. eisenberg. and that is in your own handwriting? mr. mandella. yes; it is. mr. eisenberg. was there any handwriting when you got any of these prints, by the way? mr. mandella. no; there wasn't. mr. eisenberg. all the prints were blank on the reverse side? mr. mandella. they were blank on the reverse side. there was handwriting within the photographs but not---- mr. eisenberg. that is on the face of the photographs? mr. mandella. yes. mr. eisenberg. would you proceed, mr. mandella? mr. mandella. box a, photo no. . mr. eisenberg. that is commission exhibit , and i will hand you photo no. . mr. mandella. what was that number, ? numbers and . mr. eisenberg. i now hand you nos. and . could you identify no. first mr. mandella? mr. mandella. no. , commission exhibit no. , contains three identifiable fingerprints, one of which, located in the center in a whorl-type pattern, is the no. finger or the right index finger of lee harvey oswald. the fingerprints on the right and the left do not belong to lee harvey oswald but the one in the center, the whorl-type pattern, is his no. finger. mr. eisenberg. which is that now again, the right-hand index finger? mr. mandella. the no. finger, which is the right index finger, and again the first joint, the bulb of the finger. mr. eisenberg. the bulb of the distal phalanx? mr. mandella. yes. mr. eisenberg. of the right index finger? mr. mandella. yes. mr. dulles. for clarity, where were these taken? what were these taken from? mr. eisenberg. this was taken from box a---- mr. dulles. box a? mr. eisenberg. which i believe is a rolling reader carton. is there printing or handwriting on the back of that photograph ? mr. mandella. yes; there is. mr. eisenberg. could you read it to us? mr. mandella. "center impression no. finger oswald from box a photo--latent on left unidentified--photo nos. and identical--negative with oswald unidentified." mr. eisenberg. "negative with oswald," are you referring now to two of the three photographs--two of the three prints appearing on the photograph? mr. mandella. that is right, two prints, exactly, the one in the center, of course i am not in reference to the one in the center, which is his. the two on the right and left are unidentified. mr. eisenberg. and no. , mr. mandella? mr. mandella. no. , commission exhibit , is a palmprint from the left palm of lee harvey oswald, the left palm section of course, the ulnar side again of the left side of the left palm. mr. eisenberg. and do you have a note on the back of that? mr. mandella. yes; i do. "oswald's left palm--left side." mr. eisenberg. and that again is in your own handwriting, is it mr. mandella? mr. mandella. yes. mr. eisenberg. any other identifications? mr. mandella. yes; there is one more on box d, photo no. . mr. eisenberg. that is exhibit , which contains two photographs, and i will extract the photograph labeled " ." mr. mandella. commission exhibit , photo no. , the right palmprint of lee harvey oswald. the section here is at the heel of the palm in the center. mr. eisenberg. in the center of the palm? mr. mandella. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. you were just pointing to the lower portion of the palm, which you refer to as the heel? mr. mandella. yes; this is the portion of oswald's palm. mr. eisenberg. is there handwriting or printing on the back of that photograph? mr. mandella. yes; there is. "right palm--oswald--heel of hand." mr. eisenberg. and that is your handwriting, is it, mr. mandella? mr. mandella. yes; it is. mr. eisenberg. so you made a total of six identifications? mr. mandella. yes; i did. mr. eisenberg. now when you made these identifications--or, i should say, when you received the photographs and when you made the identifications, did you have any knowledge of any kind as to how many, if any, prints of oswald's were found among the many impressions which were given to you? mr. mandella. i had no idea, sir. mr. eisenberg. were you aware in any way of the conclusions of any other body concerning these impressions? mr. mandella. i knew nothing about any examination by anyone. mr. eisenberg. at an unofficial level, had you seen anything in the newspapers which would indicate any information on these? mr. mandella. in the newspaper several months ago there was reference to a--i don't even recall whether it was fingerprints or palmprints or both but there was some reference in the newspaper i had seen, and that is all. mr. eisenberg. that is all you recall about it? mr. mandella. that is all i recall. mr. eisenberg. did you pay any attention to that in making your identifications? mr. mandella. no; it didn't affect me at all, nothing to do with the identifications. mr. eisenberg. what is your general attitude toward items you see like this in the newspapers, by the way? mr. mandella. in the newspapers? it doesn't mean a thing. attitude relative to fingerprints? mr. eisenberg. i am trying to determine how far this might influence you in your evaluation, and i wonder as a police officer what your opinion is when you read accounts in newspapers of evidence in crimes. mr. mandella. no; it doesn't affect me other than for general information purposes. mr. eisenberg. did i transmit to you any information whatsoever concerning these prints? mr. mandella. you did not, other than giving me the photographs. mr. eisenberg. did i tell you that any of these prints might be lee harvey oswald's? mr. mandella. you made no indication as to that it could have been his. mr. eisenberg. do you know now, apart from your own identification, have you acquired any information at this point, subsequent to your identification but prior to your appearance here, as to these prints, other than your own identifications? mr. mandella. i have no knowledge as to what has been done with these prints at all by anyone. mr. eisenberg. are you absolutely sure as to each of these identifications, mr. mandella? mr. mandella. i am positive. mr. eisenberg. mr. mandella, are you familiar with the contention of some persons that points are needed for identification of finger or palm prints? mr. mandella. no i am not, no. positive identifications are effected by the expert himself; points are not necessary. a sufficient amount determined by the expert is the important factor. mr. dulles. about how many? have you any test as to how many points? mr. mandella. i can't give a definite number, but i'd say in generalities five or six or seven points certainly should be enough, depending on their uniqueness and frequency. mr. eisenberg. what is the lowest number to which you have testified in court, mr. mandella. mr. mandella. the lowest that i can recall i testified to, five points. mr. eisenberg. was there a conviction secured in that case? mr. mandella. yes; there was. of course, i don't recall if the fingerprint was the thing that caused the conviction, but it was part of the testimony. mr. dulles. in most of these cases where you have made an identification, have there been more than five points of identity? mr. mandella. well, it seems to run between, somewhere between , , , , and , and in some cases more. it depends on how much of the finger or palm that you have, how many characteristics are contained in that area. mr. dulles. my question was directed to the specific prints that you have, photographs of prints that you have examined. mr. mandella. yes; it usually verges on , , , and . mr. dulles. in the cases of these identifications that you have made? mr. mandella. oh, no. some--we have many more characteristics in some of these identifications here today. mr. eisenberg. i think commissioner dulles is referring to cases previous to this. mr. dulles. i was referring to both. first i was asking you in general how many do you consider are necessary, and secondly how many did you find in these particular cases that you have examined in the oswald case? mr. mandella. oh. would you like me to---- mr. eisenberg. do you have that information? mr. mandella. yes. mr. eisenberg. fine. mr. mandella. of course these characteristics that i point out are the ones that i see and in some cases there is a few more, but these are the ones that are very definite and outstanding. on the gun barrel, i forget the commission exhibit number, there was points of identity. mr. eisenberg. that is ? mr. mandella. commission exhibit . there was points of identity on that particular palmprint. mr. dulles. that is exactly what i wanted. mr. mandella. yes; now the brown wrapping paper bag, commission's exhibit ---- mr. eisenberg. there is -a and b here. the one you have marked "left index oswald"? mr. mandella. is that a? mr. eisenberg. that is what i have marked "b." that is commission exhibit -b. mr. mandella. then no. , -a is the palmprint. mr. eisenberg. that is marked "right palm"? mr. mandella. right palm, and there is points, characteristics that are very outstanding and in this case possibly more too. now in commission's exhibit -b---- mr. eisenberg. that is marked "left index oswald"? mr. mandella. it is the left index finger--lee harvey oswald, there is points of identity and possibly a few more. in commission exhibit which is the no. finger or the right index finger of lee harvey oswald, there is points, that is the whorl-type pattern. mr. eisenberg. excuse me a second mr. mandella. that is no. center impression, marked by you "center impression no. finger--oswald," is that correct? mr. mandella. yes; that is correct. and there is points of identity or characteristic. mr. eisenberg. on no. ? mr. mandella. no. , the palmprint. mr. eisenberg. that is marked by you "oswald left palm--left side"? mr. dulles. palmprint on the box is it? mr. eisenberg. yes; box a. mr. dulles. box a? mr. mandella. yes; points of identity i found on that particular exhibit. mr. eisenberg. can you check your notes on that? mr. mandella. i can explain this. on the reverse side i have to points. mr. eisenberg. that is the reverse side of number---- mr. mandella. it is the reverse side of commission exhibit . however, after going over this and looking at it again i found several more. of course in this case it is still more than . but that can be readily seen and recognized. and then commission exhibit finally---- mr. eisenberg. ? mr. mandella. . mr. eisenberg. box d. mr. mandella. photo no. , the right palmprint of oswald, and there is eight points of identity on that one. mr. dulles. thank you. mr. eisenberg. mr. mandella, do you have any opinion concerning the ability to determine the freshness of a fingerprint? mr. mandella. it is very difficult to tell. however, you can determine if it was left within say a few days, but certainly you can't pinpoint it. you can't say it was there so many hours or so many days. how many days i don't know, but in the developing of fingerprints we will say on an ashtray on this commission desk here, if we just touch it now, as opposed to a fingerprint being left there several days ago, the impression that we recently left, as we applied powder to it to bring it about would naturally come out sooner because of the freshness of the oils on our fingers. the others would come out, if we kept processing or powdering it with a brush. they would later come out too. so this is the only indication to me then, that the first ones that appear then were recently left. and in this you can't even say this definitely either. it is very difficult because at certain times it could be a little more oil on someone's fingers and this could last longer and appear to be fresher. so it is very difficult to tell positively. mr. eisenberg. what you are describing is freshness, relative freshness, between one print and another, rather than absolute freshness of any given print? mr. mandella. yes; that is true. mr. eisenberg. now i give you commission exhibit no. , which is a rifle, and ask you whether you think if you developed a print on a steel portion of the rifle you could testify as to whether this was a fresh or a stale print? mr. mandella. no; i couldn't tell. i couldn't tell especially on steel or on wood here whether it is fresh or not. by itself of course too, with nothing around it, you couldn't tell. it is impossible, as a matter of fact. mr. eisenberg. i hand you commission exhibit no. , which consists of a piece torn off of a cardboard type of box, and appearing on that is a powder impression under a tape, of which you have seen actually a photograph, mr. mandella. mr. mandella. yes. mr. eisenberg. if you had developed that impression, do you think you would testify as to relative freshness? mr. mandella. in this case, with this cardboard, in my own experience--i assume the medium used here is powder---- mr. eisenberg. yes; i believe so. mr. mandella. to develop it. if it comes out this fresh, i would have to assume that it was left there recently. but how recently i can't pinpoint that. mr. eisenberg. within days? mr. mandella. oh, definitely i would say within days. mr. eisenberg. within days? mr. mandella. yes; i would say within about a day, a day and a half, because the cardboard is very porous and it would normally draw the oils, the perspiration, and it would disappear. however, we do have an impression here with powder. that means that it was quite fresh, in my own opinion anyway. mr. eisenberg. mr. mandella, i can see that you have taken notes, numerous notes on the fingerprints, including those you didn't identify. i wonder whether we could introduce those as a commission exhibit, rather than going through those one by one. would you part with those? we could supply you with a copy later. lieutenant mooney. i have the rough. it will only take us a couple minutes to---- mr. dulles. we would be very glad to give you a photograph copy of it. mr. mandella. that is all i need. that is fine. yes. mr. eisenberg. you are handing me two pages, and these contain your original notes concerning the fingerprints? mr. mandella. yes. mr. eisenberg. these contain your notes not only as to the fingerprints you identified, but those which you did not identify against a known print which you were given? mr. mandella. that is right. there were quite a few fingerprints that didn't belong to oswald. however, they belonged to one another. mr. eisenberg. that is to say, you found two prints which were identical to each other? mr. mandella. that is right. mr. eisenberg. two latents which were identical to each other? mr. mandella. that is right, but to whom they belong i have no idea. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, may i have these notes admitted as commission exhibit no. ? mr. dulles. it shall be admitted as exhibit . (commission exhibit no. was marked for identification, and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. mr. mandella, is there anything you would like to add to your testimony here? mr. mandella. nothing other than what i already mentioned. mr. eisenberg. i have no further questions. mr. dulles. we thank you then mr. mandella, very much. i didn't catch your name. lieutenant mooney. lieutenant mooney. glad to have been of service. mr. dulles. would you please express to the commissioner on behalf of the chief justice and the commission our grateful thanks to you for the work that you have done, and it is greatly appreciated, and also express on my own personal behalf--i know the commissioner--my appreciation for the cooperation he has given to the commission. lieutenant mooney. thank you, sir. we are glad to have been of service. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, may i say that these two gentlemen both interrupted their vacation to come here, and they have been working practically night and day in order to meet with our time demands for testimony. mr. dulles. we deeply appreciate that. mr. mandella. glad to have helped in any way. mr. dulles. the commission will stand adjourned until tomorrow morning at o'clock. (whereupon, at : p.m., the president's commission adjourned.) _friday, april , _ testimony of paul morgan stombaugh and james c. cadigan the president's commission met at : a.m. on april , , at maryland avenue ne., washington, d.c. present were chief justice earl warren, chairman and mr. allen w. dulles, member. also present were j. lee rankin, general counsel; melvin aron eisenberg, assistant counsel; and charles murray, observer. testimony of paul morgan stombaugh the chairman. the commission will come to order. the purpose of today's hearing is to take the testimony of paul stombaugh and james c. cadigan. mr. stombaugh is a hair and fiber expert with the fbi, and mr. cadigan is a questioned documents expert with the fbi. they have been asked to provide technical information to assist the commission in its work. this is just to advise you of the nature of the interrogation today. will you rise: do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. stombaugh. i do. the chairman. you may be seated. mr. eisenberg, you may proceed with the examination. mr. eisenberg. mr. stombaugh, could you state your full name and your position? mr. stombaugh. paul m., for morgan, stombaugh. i am a special agent of the federal bureau of investigation, assigned to the hair and fiber unit of the fbi laboratory as a hair and fiber examiner. mr. eisenberg. what is your education, mr. stombaugh? mr. stombaugh. i have a bachelor of science degree in biology from furman university, greenville, s.c., and i received a -year period of specialized training in the hair and fiber field in the laboratory under the supervision of the other experts. mr. eisenberg. how long have you been in the hair and fiber field? mr. stombaugh. since . mr. eisenberg. could you approximate the number of examinations you have made in this field? mr. stombaugh. i have made several thousand hair examinations and about twice as many fiber examinations. mr. eisenberg. have you testified in court? mr. stombaugh. yes, sir; i have testified in approximately states, both federal and local courts, as an expert. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, i would like permission to examine the witness as an expert in this area. the chairman. the witness is qualified. mr. eisenberg. mr. stombaugh, i now hand you commission exhibit no. , which for the record consists of a blanket which was found in the garage of mr. and mrs. paine, and a piece of string marked paine exhibit no. , and i ask you whether you are familiar with these items? mr. stombaugh. yes, sir; i am. my mark is here on the blanket, and when this was received in the fbi laboratory this string was around a portion of it. mr. eisenberg. could you tell us what your mark is exactly, mr. stombaugh? mr. stombaugh. due to the fact this was a piece of fabric and hard to mark, i put a piece of evidence tape on the blanket, stapled it to the blanket, and put my initials "pms" with the date - - thereon. mr. eisenberg. when did you receive this blanket, mr. stombaugh? mr. stombaugh. this was approximately : a.m., on the morning of november , . mr. eisenberg. can you describe the shape of the blanket and the position of the string, paine exhibit , when you received it? mr. stombaugh. may i use this? mr. eisenberg. what you are holding up is a piece of paper which--will you describe it, please? mr. stombaugh. this is a piece of kraft paper approximately the same shape as this blanket. when i received the blanket, it had been folded together with both ends even; a slight triangle had been folded into one corner of the blanket, and another fold had been taken into the blanket thus. mr. eisenberg. when you say "thus," you are folding the piece of kraft paper, and is the paper now folded into approximately--in a manner approximating the way the blanket was folded when you received it? mr. stombaugh. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, may i have permission to introduce the piece of paper which the witness has so folded? the chairman. it may be so admitted. mr. eisenberg. that will be commission exhibit . (commission exhibit was marked and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. there is a safety pin inserted into exhibit , mr. stombaugh. was there an equivalent safety pin on the blanket? mr. stombaugh. yes, sir; there was a much larger safety pin attached to the blanket in approximately the same place as the small pin in the piece of paper. mr. eisenberg. now, the blanket is folded so as to approximate approximately a right angle triangle, and the safety pin is at one angle of that triangle opposite the right angle, is that correct? mr. stombaugh. the safety pin would be at the vertex of the right angle---- mr. eisenberg. now---- mr. stombaugh. of the triangle. mr. eisenberg. were there any distinctive creases in the blanket? mr. stombaugh. yes; there were. there was one crease at the base, which would be the base of the right triangle, a very slight crease. mr. eisenberg. could you mark that with the letter "a" please, on the exhibit ? mr. stombaugh. yes. mr. eisenberg. this is opposite--this is the side facing the angle at which the safety pin is inserted, is that correct? mr. stombaugh. that is correct. it would be the base of the triangle. mr. eisenberg. the base of the triangle---- mr. stombaugh. there was also another crease i found upon removing the safety pin and opening the blanket; i found that one end of the blanket had been folded in approximately inches. mr. eisenberg. what is the relationship between that and the end which you have just marked "a," is that the opposite side? mr. stombaugh. that would be the opposite side of the blanket. mr. eisenberg. could you mark that "b"? what was the relationship between the amount which the blanket was folded on the side "a" and the amount which it was folded on side "b," that is, were the folds approximately equal, or if different, how different, in length? mr. stombaugh. the one, the fold marked "a" was not as great as the fold marked "b." the fold marked "b" was approximately inches, the fold marked "a" was less than inches. mr. eisenberg. proceed. mr. stombaugh. there was one other crease in the blanket which was more or less a hump approximately inches long, located approximately midway between the blanket, between--it is very difficult to describe the location. mr. eisenberg. could you point to it, and maybe we can describe it? mr. stombaugh. approximately in this area. mr. eisenberg. this is, approximately midway between the side at which the fold marked "a" appears and the side at which the fold marked "b" appears? mr. stombaugh. that is correct, approximately midway. mr. eisenberg. could you mark that fold or crease "c"? was this a fold or a crease, mr. stombaugh? mr. stombaugh. this was a very slight crease. it appeared as a hump in the blanket. mr. eisenberg. was there any item in the blanket, any object in the blanket, which might have been causing that hump? mr. stombaugh. not when i opened it, sir. mr. eisenberg. did you form an opinion as to what might cause that hump to exist in the blanket? mr. stombaugh. yes, sir; it would have had to have been a hard object, approximately inches in length, which protruded upward, causing the yarns in the blanket to stretch in this area, and it would have had to have been tightly placed in the blanket to cause these yarns to stretch. mr. eisenberg. now, when you say the object was inches long, do you mean that the object itself was inches long or that there was an object inches--an object protruding at a point inches from the place you have marked "a"? mr. stombaugh. no, sir; the object itself would have had to have been approximately inches long to have caused this hump. mr. eisenberg. it couldn't have been longer than inches? mr. stombaugh. not at this point; no, sir. mr. eisenberg. could it have proceeded past that point marked "c," that is, could the object have been placed so that its base was at "c"--so that its base was at "a"? is it possible that the object as it lay in the blanket passed "c" but with a protrusion at "c"? mr. stombaugh. yes, sir; this is quite possible. mr. eisenberg. that is possible? mr. stombaugh. this is quite possible. mr. eisenberg. were there any other folds or creases, mr. stombaugh? mr. stombaugh. yes, sir. at the upper, call it the upper portion of the triangle, there were some creases in the blanket which had been caused by a piece of string which had been securely wrapped around the blanket at this point. mr. eisenberg. could you mark the area "d," where those creases occurred? is the string you are referring to the paine exhibit which you earlier identified? mr. stombaugh. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. was that wrapped around the blanket when you received it? mr. stombaugh. yes, sir; this was loosely wrapped around the blanket at this point. from an examination of the blanket itself and these creases, it was apparent that this string had been tied around the blanket while something was inside this blanket, and the string had been tied rather tight in order for these creases to have remained in the blanket. mr. eisenberg. in other words, the creases remained in the blanket although there was no object in it when you received it---- mr. stombaugh. correct. mr. eisenberg. which would account for the creases, is that correct? mr. stombaugh. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. and you therefore deduced there had been an object in the blanket preceding your examination? mr. stombaugh. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. did you notice anything else about the blanket which you would like to relate, mr. stombaugh? mr. stombaugh. the blanket exhibited much wear. mr. eisenberg. we are just talking now about the shape, of course. we will be getting into composition later. mr. stombaugh. no, sir; i cannot think of anything else at this time. mr. eisenberg. in your opinion, would the blanket have made a secure package wrapped in the way and manner that it appeared to you? mr. stombaugh. yes, sir; it would have. with the crease at fold "a," had it been folded down, it would have made a very snug and secure package containing some type of item in it. mr. eisenberg. now, mr. stombaugh, was there anything about the string, paine exhibit , which would make an identification possible? mr. stombaugh. no, sir; the string is just common white cotton string. it is found in most stores throughout the country, and used for, well, many uses. there is nothing distinctive about the string itself which could be traced as to manufacturer or any definite use it was made for. mr. eisenberg. any distinctive accidental markings on it? mr. stombaugh. no; i found none. mr. eisenberg. what kind--was it tied in a knot? mr. stombaugh. yes, sir; it was tied in a granny knot, and also a bow knot. mr. eisenberg. could you illustrate that for us? you are holding up a piece of string? mr. stombaugh. this is another piece of string, not the original. mr. eisenberg. not the original. mr. stombaugh. a granny knot is a common knot, tied with two simple thumb knots. it is a very hard knot to open as opposed to the boy scout knot, or the square knot rather, which is tied in this manner. this knot is very easy to open because all one has to do is to pull one free end of it and the other free end slides out. mr. eisenberg. you are referring to the so-called "boy scout" knot? mr. stombaugh. it is actually not a boy scout knot but a square knot. mr. eisenberg. and you tie that left over right, right over left, is that the formula? mr. stombaugh. yes; left over right and right over left. mr. eisenberg. how do you spell that, by the way? mr. stombaugh. g-r-a-n-n-y. mr. eisenberg. the granny knot, mr. stombaugh, is this a common or an uncommon knot? mr. stombaugh. it is a very common knot. i believe that knot is tied more than any other knot because it is right over right, right over right, and it is usually used by people wrapping packages who want it tied securely so the package will not come open. mr. eisenberg. did you say there was also a bow knot? mr. stombaugh. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. could you illustrate that? mr. stombaugh. this is the type of knot we use when we tie our shoe strings. it is made by forming a loop with the one free end, and wrapping the other free end around it and pulling it through. mr. eisenberg. is that a hard or an easy knot to slip out, mr. stombaugh? mr. stombaugh. this is very easy, because you just take one of the loose ends and pull it and the knot falls apart. mr. eisenberg. what was the relationship between the granny knot and the bow knot? mr. stombaugh. i don't know. i have seen this numerous times, on numerous different occasions when one would either tie a granny knot or a square knot and follow it up with a bow knot. the granny knot would be to secure the package so it would not come loose. the bow knot is a temporary knot tied by one who wants the string to come off easily. now why they would tie a granny knot and follow this up with a bow knot i don't know, unless they had some long loose ends which they wanted to slacken up, shorten up, rather, so as they would not be hanging down. mr. eisenberg. the exhibit paine no. is tied into a knot at this point. can you tell us what kind of a knot that is? mr. stombaugh. this was a simple bow knot which i put into it. mr. eisenberg. you put it into it? mr. stombaugh. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. so the knot does not reproduce the knots as you found them originally? mr. stombaugh. no; they do not. mr. eisenberg. mr. stombaugh, i wonder if you could tie the demonstration piece of string you have been using into the granny knot and bow knot, in the manner in which you received it. mr. stombaugh. there is the granny knot and here is the bow knot. mr. eisenberg. you are not here trying to approximate the diameter or the circumference of the string, but only the knots? mr. stombaugh. no. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, may i admit this string as an illustrative exhibit? the chairman. it may be done. mr. eisenberg. that will be , mr. reporter. (the item referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received into evidence.) now, mr. stombaugh, did you examine this blanket to determine its composition? mr. stombaugh. yes; i did. mr. eisenberg. can you give us your conclusions? mr. stombaugh. the blanket is composed of a very small percentage of brown and green woolen fibers; an average of about percent to percent of brown and green cotton fibers, and the remaining portion brown and green delustered viscose fibers. mr. eisenberg. when you say "a very small portion of brown and green woolen fibers," could you be more specific; was it in the neighborhood of percent or percent? mr. stombaugh. i was unable to obtain a definite percentage. this is a rather long, involved, and inaccurate method of determination because one would need a brand new blanket to get a good quantitative analysis. however, in the samples of the fabric that i made, i found approximately to percent woolen fibers, to, i would say, , percent cotton fibers, and the remainder of it viscose fibers. this is just an approximation from the microscopic slide that i made. mr. eisenberg. would you have any reason to believe that the approximation was not made from a fair sample of the blanket? mr. stombaugh. no; i wouldn't. i took the sample myself. however, the blanket is very well worn. most of the nap has been worn off of it. it has had a lot of use, and much of the original composition has been worn off. now, whether or not this same percentage of composition is missing from use or not i wouldn't be able to determine, but i would say that the approximation that i had given is fairly accurate for the blanket in its present condition. mr. eisenberg. mr. stombaugh, could you explain to us briefly how you were able to distinguish the three fibers, cotton, wool, and viscose? mr. stombaugh. yes, sir. this chart shows the difference in the textile fibers when one observes them under a microscope. a cotton fiber appears to be, or rather, might be compared with an ordinary soda straw which has been flattened. you can see here that the fiber is hollow. the hollow is known as the lumen in cotton. the fiber is flattened and twisted much as teenagers do to soda straws in drug stores when they twist and crush the soda straws. mr. eisenberg. pardon me, mr. stombaugh: this chart is a chart labeled "textile fibers," and having three illustrations labeled "cotton," "wool," and "viscose"? mr. stombaugh. that is correct. a woolen fiber actually is a hair which originates from an animal and is composed of three basic parts, the outer part being the scales which are the rough area on the outside of the hair, the inner portion known as the cortex, and a center portion known as the medulla. microscopically this is what you would look for to identify wool. viscose is a synthetic fiber that is made by man. it is composed of chemicals, and is very rough around the outside area, having many striations running through it. the viscose fiber i have drawn here is what we would term a lustrous fiber. it does not have the delustering agent added to it, to cut down the luster. if this were a delustered fiber then we would have millions of small spots on the outside of this fiber which have been placed there chemically so as to cut down the luster of the fiber. mr. eisenberg. was the viscose in the blanket that we have been examining lustered or delustered? mr. stombaugh. this was delustered. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, may i introduce the chart which the witness has been discussing as ? this chart was prepared by you or under your supervision, mr. stombaugh? mr. stombaugh. it was prepared by me. the chairman. what is the number? mr. eisenberg. that will be . (commission exhibit no. was marked, and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. mr. stombaugh, did you examine this blanket to determine whether any debris was present? mr. stombaugh. yes; i did. i scraped the blanket and removed all the foreign textile fibers and hairs and placed them into a pillbox. mr. eisenberg. can you describe to us how this scraping was performed? mr. stombaugh. yes, sir. we suspend the blanket from a rack in the laboratory, place a clean sheet of kraft paper on a table directly under it and, using a spatula, thoroughly scrape it down. this knocks all the foreign material adhering to the blanket from the blanket, and it falls down to the paper. after we have thoroughly cleaned the blanket, then we scrape up all the debris and place it in the pillboxes for a microscopic examination. mr. eisenberg. why do you use this scrape method, as opposed to a fine-filter vacuum cleaner? mr. stombaugh. we have found that the fine-filtered vacuum cleaner pulls all of the dirt and old debris from a blanket which are embedded on the inner portion of the fabric. we are not interested in this material. we are interested only in what is adhering to the top surface, which has been put there most recently. through experience in the laboratory we have found this method to be the best so far. mr. eisenberg. so that by use of the scrape you gathered the more recent debris, as opposed to the older debris? mr. stombaugh. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. and what type of debris did you find, mr. stombaugh? mr. stombaugh. i found numerous foreign textile fibers of various types and colors, as well as a number of limb and pubic hairs. mr. eisenberg. did you draw any conclusions as to those hairs upon your initial examination of them? mr. stombaugh. yes; i did. they all had originated from a person of the caucasian race and i compared these hairs with hair samples obtained from harvey oswald---- mr. eisenberg. that is lee harvey oswald? mr. stombaugh. that is, lee harvey oswald, and i found that of the limb and pubic hairs i removed from the blanket, several matched oswald's in all observable microscopic characteristics and could have originated from oswald. mr. eisenberg. you said these hairs were from a person of caucasian race. can you explain how you can tell the difference between hairs of the various types of races? mr. stombaugh. yes, sir. going back to my charts, i have a chart here which contains a diagram of a hair. this isn't any particular hair, this is a type of hair that could be animal or human. i am just using this to give one an idea of what a hair looks like. first, we have the root, which is the portion of the hair embedded in the scalp or in the skin, whichever type hair it might be. (at this point, mr. dulles entered the hearing room.) mr. stombaugh. and from the root, extending out and growing, is the shaft of the hair, and the very distal end of that is the tip. if we were to take this hair and place it under a microscope, this is what we would see. we find that the hair basically consists, in the shaft area, of scales composing the outside portion of the hair. directly under the scales is the cortex. now the scales vary in size and shape among animal and human hairs. the cortex also varies. running through the center of the hair shaft, much as the lead in the center of a lead pencil, is what is known as the medulla. the medulla is nothing more than air cells running through the center of the hairshaft. in the cortex of the hair are small granules which appear under a microscope like tiny grains of sand. these are known as the hair pigment. this is the part of the hair that gives the hair its color, whether it is blond, dark brown, black, or what-have-you. also present in the cortex you will occasionally find air spaces located among the pigment granules which are known as cortical fusi. these will vary in size, shape, form, and location on the hair. many hairs do not have any. basically that is what a hair looks like, and the basic component parts of the hair. mr. eisenberg. may i have this admitted as , this diagram of the hair? the chairman. yes; it may be admitted. (commission exhibit no. was marked, and received in evidence.) mr. stombaugh. now, keeping the diagram of the hair on the side where we can refer to it, our first differentiation in the hair, of course, would be separating the human from the animal hairs. these are photomicrographs of human hairs which i took through a microscope. here are the animal hairs. the first thing we look for, of course, would be the color, length, and texture of the hair. this comes from experience from looking at thousands of hairs, and we can usually pick one up and tell by the naked eye whether it is animal or human. mr. eisenberg. pardon me. you are referring to a chart which has on the upper right, "human hairs" and on the upper left, "animal hairs" as captions? mr. stombaugh. that is correct. however, when we place these hairs under a microscope we find that animal hairs vary from human hairs in many different aspects. one, the medullary structure. in animal hair the medullary structure is much wider than that in a human hair. you will find that it exceeds more than one-third of the width of the hair shaft. secondly, the shape of the medulla, as in this rabbit hair, varies greatly. you can see the individual medullary cells very distinctly. in this chart i have some photographs of human hairs in which a medulla is not present. but the medulla in a human hair would look just about like this, very thin. we move down to the pigmentation of the hair, which is located in the cortex. in the human hair the pigmentation is very fine and granular, and in this animal hair it is very coarse and elongated. the size and shape of a root on the animal hair differs from the size and shape of the root in the human hair. here we see the root of a dog hair which is very long and very thin. the root of a human hair is more or less shaped similar to a light bulb. the scales of animal hairs are very large. the scales of the human hairs are much smaller. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, may i have this chart which the witness has been using introduced as ? the chairman. it may be admitted. (the chart referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. you are looking at a new chart called "racial determination of hairs" with the subcaption "general appearance of shaft"? mr. stombaugh. that is correct. once we have separated the animal hairs from the human hairs, our next problem is determining the race of the individual from whom the particular human hairs in which we are interested originated. looking at the hair under low power--under a low-power microscope--we find that a caucasian hair differs from the hair of the negroid or mongoloid race in diameter fluctuation. the hair shaft varies in width through its entire length. i might take, for instance, this yellow or this black pencil. here we find that the diameter of the pencil is uniform through the entire length. now, if we would twist this pencil we would change the diameter of the pencil slightly. this would be so in a caucasian hair, where there might be slight fluctuations in a hair, such as a person with wavy hair would have a slight fluctuation. the person with straight hair has hair shafts which for all practical purposes, are uniform in diameter the entire length. in negroid hair, there is great fluctuation. their hair is very curly and kinky. this is caused by the great fluctuation present in their hairs. mr. eisenberg. you mean in the diameters? mr. stombaugh. yes; diameters. in mongoloid hair, which includes asiatic and north american indians, there is little or no fluctuation present in their hairs. going back to the caucasian hair, the color of the caucasian individual's hair differs from black to blond and, of course, white. negroid hairs are dense black usually; some are white. there are a few exceptions here where we find some redheaded persons of this race. the mongoloids are always black, but not quite as dense black as those of the negroid race. the texture of the hair: caucasian head hairs, are very soft, flexible; negroid hairs are very stiff and wiry; and mongoloid hairs are flexible, but not as soft and flexible as the caucasian. now, as to the general width, or rather diameter, of the shaft, we find caucasian is medium, the negroid is medium, the mongoloid hairs are much larger than either the negroid or the caucasian. mr. eisenberg. may i have this chart which the witness has been discussing marked as , mr. chairman? the chairman. yes. (commission's exhibit no. was marked, and received in evidence.) the chairman. may we take a recess at this time just for a few moments. (short recess.) mr. dulles. mr. eisenberg, would you proceed? mr. eisenberg. yes, sir. mr. stombaugh, you were discussing the characteristics of caucasian as opposed to negroid and mongoloid hair. could you proceed with that discussion? mr. stombaugh. i have another chart here. mr. eisenberg. that is labeled "racial determination of hairs" and unlike chart it has no subcaption under that general caption, is that correct? mr. stombaugh. that is correct. in the previous chart i used i had taken some photographs of hairs under relatively low power, diameters. in this chart i have enlarged the hairs, taking them under approximately diameters, so we can look into the hair. here we begin to see the real differences between the hairs among the various races. in the caucasian race, the cuticle, in other words, the layer of scales around the outside of the hair, is medium to thick. in the negroid hair the cuticle is very thick. in the mongoloid hair the cuticle is very thick. pigmentation in the cortex, which gives the hair the color, in caucasian hair is very fine to coarse and is very evenly distributed throughout the cortex of the hair. in negroid hair the pigment is medium to coarse, but the big difference is that the pigment granules are clumped together, leaving large white-gapped areas throughout the cortex of the hair. in the mongoloid hair, the pigment is medium to coarse but it is very heavily distributed throughout the hair. as you can see, in the caucasian hair the cortex is relatively light. in negroid hair it is clumped, and in mongoloid hair it is dense. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, may i have this chart admitted as ? mr. dulles. it is admitted as . (commission exhibit no. was marked, and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. you have a chart here "racial determination of hairs," and no subcaption, is that right? mr. dulles. you haven't asked for this other to be admitted, have you? mr. eisenberg. no; i will ask after he has finished with it. mr. stombaugh. occasionally we will run into situations in hairs, where we cannot determine with any certainty whether or not the hairs are of the caucasian or negroid or mongoloid race, by examining it longitudinally, and we have to make a cross-section of the hair. if we make a cross-section of the hair it is the same as taking a banana and cutting off a very thin slice of the banana and placing it under a microscope and examining it. we find in the caucasian race the hairs are oval in shape. in the negroid race the hairs are flat, and have a flattened appearance, and in the mongoloid race they are perfectly round. this is another characteristic which we use in determining the racial origin of hair. mr. eisenberg. may i have this chart admitted as ? mr. dulles. yes. (commission exhibit no. was marked, and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. was it definitely established in your mind as a result of the various characteristics you have explained that the hairs found in the blanket were caucasian hairs? mr. stombaugh. yes, sir; they were all caucasian hairs. mr. eisenberg. did you examine those hairs and compare them with any known samples to determine whether they might have come from any specific individual? mr. stombaugh. yes; i did. mr. eisenberg. what was your conclusion on that score? mr. stombaugh. i examined the hairs found on the blanket and determined that most of them were limb and pubic hairs. in other words, they originated either from the leg or the arm or from the pubic area. i found several head hairs on the blanket also. these hairs i compared with known hair samples from lee harvey oswald. i found several of the limb hairs from the blanket and several of the pubic hairs from the blanket matched in all observable microscopic characteristics, and concluded these hairs could have come from oswald. mr. eisenberg. where did you get the known sample, mr. stombaugh, of lee oswald's hair? mr. stombaugh. these were obtained and were sent to the laboratory by the fbi office in dallas. i do not know whether the agent in dallas personally took the samples or had a member of the dallas police department take the samples. mr. eisenberg. were these hairs taken from one area or were they a representative sample? mr. stombaugh. it was a fairly good representative sample. mr. eisenberg. could you review the microscopic characteristics which led you to your conclusion, mr. stombaugh? mr. stombaugh. this chart contains a photomicrograph of oswald's pubic hairs. this is just a very small area taken of a glass microscope slide containing the hairs. there were numerous other hairs. the photograph on the right shows one of the hairs i removed from the blanket, and one of the hairs from oswald, showing, generally, the match. mr. eisenberg. now, did you take these photographs on the left and right side yourself? mr. stombaugh. yes; i did. mr. eisenberg. this chart is captioned on the left "photomicrograph of oswald's pubic hairs" and on the right "hair from the blanket" and "hair from oswald"? mr. stombaugh. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. may i have it admitted? (the item referred to was marked as commission exhibit no. , and received into evidence.) mr. dulles. may i ask a question? the one on the right seems darker than the one on the left, the hair itself. mr. stombaugh. this one and this one? mr. dulles. what is it? mr. stombaugh. are you referring---- mr. eisenberg. the hair shown on the right appears darker. mr. dulles. there are two specimens there or two---- mr. stombaugh. two. mr. dulles. that is what i thought. mr. stombaugh. you are thinking this hair looks darker than this one? mr. dulles. no; i was thinking that both the hairs on the right, which i understand were taken from oswald---- mr. eisenberg. one hair was actually from the blanket, one from oswald. mr. dulles. seems darker than the ones taken from the blanket. is the left the blanket? mr. stombaugh. this portion here is one separate hair. this was taken from the blanket. mr. dulles. that was taken from the blanket. the right-hand is taken from the blanket and the left-hand hairs were taken from oswald himself? mr. stombaugh. yes, sir; these are from oswald. mr. dulles. yes. mr. stombaugh. this is a comparison shot. this photograph was taken through two microscopes simultaneously showing how this portion of a pubic hair from the blanket matched a pubic hair from oswald, which is this portion of the photograph. mr. eisenberg. you are pointing to the right side of the chart ? mr. stombaugh. yes; this photograph was taken at diameters and this photograph was taken at diameters. there is a difference there also. mr. eisenberg. could you state that again please? mr. stombaugh. the photograph on the left was taken approximately at diameters. mr. eisenberg. that is oswald's pubic hairs, a known sample? mr. stombaugh. yes; this is a general shot of his known sample. mr. eisenberg. and the one on the right? mr. stombaugh. the one on the right was taken at approximately diameters. mr. dulles. this is the blanket sample? mr. stombaugh. this is a hair from the blanket compared with oswald's. mr. eisenberg. you have three photographs on this chart, of which two are known oswald hairs, the photograph on the left and one of the two photographs on the right? mr. stombaugh. actually, this is one photograph taken through a comparison microscope. we are looking at two different hairs at the same time. mr. eisenberg. yes. well, when you say this is one photograph you are pointing to the one on the right but, as i understand it, the photograph on the right shows two different hairs? mr. stombaugh. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. one of which is oswald's hair, a known sample? mr. stombaugh. yes. mr. eisenberg. and the other of which was obtained from the blanket? mr. stombaugh. yes. mr. eisenberg. and the photograph on the left shows known samples of oswald's pubic hairs? mr. stombaugh. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. so we have in effect two views of oswald's pubic hairs, one on the left and one half of the composite photograph on the right? mr. stombaugh. yes. mr. eisenberg. following up on mr. dulles' question, the photograph on the right seems to have a much coarser and somewhat darker structure in both the known and the questioned sample than the photograph on the left, which is simply a known sample. mr. stombaugh. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. and you said that was because of the enlargement? mr. stombaugh. the difference in the enlargement. the photograph on the left was taken with the microscope set to magnify the specimen times. the photograph on the right was taken with the microscope set to magnify the specimen times. mr. eisenberg. the photograph on the right does not seem to show a hair four times larger, so i don't understand it. mr. stombaugh. it was on the enlarging of the photograph itself. had these two prints been enlarged at the same enlarging factor, the hairs on the left, would be much, much smaller than the ones on the right. this was just blown up to this size so the hairs could be seen. for instance, had we not blown these up, here we see them magnified times, and this other photograph is a natural shot. mr. eisenberg. now, here you are pointing to photograph , and the second shot which you call "natural" is ? mr. stombaugh. yes, sir. you can see the difference in the diameter and the difference in the detail of the photograph. mr. eisenberg. were those photographs of the different magnifications? mr. stombaugh. yes; they were. mr. eisenberg. what was , do you recall? mr. stombaugh. i believe it was approximately . mr. eisenberg. and ? mr. stombaugh. approximately . mr. eisenberg. so it corresponds to the difference in the right- and left-hand portions of ? mr. stombaugh. yes; it would. now, the characteristics we look for in making a hair match. first would be the color. the matches i found in oswald's hairs. his hairs vary from light brown to a medium brown shade. mr. eisenberg. are you talking about the known samples now? mr. stombaugh. this is his known sample. in this particular match the color was medium brown, and looking at the hair throughout its entire length, it ranged from a medium brown, and this color remained constant to the tip, where the color changed to a light brown and the very tip of it was transparent, it was clear, had no color at all. there were no color pigments in the tip of the hair. mr. eisenberg. are you referring now to the pubic hair which you illustrate on the right-hand side of ? mr. stombaugh. yes; i am referring to the pubic hair. this is the gross appearance. i looked at it under low power where i could see the entire length of the hair. next, the thickness of the hair, or the diameter of the hair shaft. i found this diameter to be rather narrow for pubic hairs. pubic hairs ordinarily are rather thick. oswald's hairs were relatively narrow. pubic hairs also have what we term nobbiness. you can see a nob right here, it is twisted---- mr. eisenberg. could you circle that with a pen, and mark it "a" on chart ? mr. stombaugh. here we see that it twists and it is very uneven. the shaft of the hair is generally very uneven in pubic hairs. however, in oswald's pubic hairs we had very little of this. the hairs were very smooth. they lacked this nobbiness. the upper two-thirds were extremely smooth for pubic hairs. this was an unusual characteristic. the tips of oswald's pubic hairs were not worn. they had a very sharp tip and very clear. ordinarily pubic hairs are rounded at the tips, and not pointed--this is from wearing against clothing--at all. this would indicate to me that his pubic hairs were rather strong, much tougher than the average persons. the cuticle, in other words the very thin layer of scales covering his hairs, is very thin for pubic hairs. the scales exhibited a very small protrusion on the outside. the distance they protruded from the shaft of the hair is very slight. mr. eisenberg. when you talk about the protrusion, do you mean the distance between the point of the scale and the balance of the cuticle, the center of the cuticle? mr. stombaugh. that is correct. some hairs will have a sawtooth effect, will look just like saw teeth do when you look at the blade of a saw. mr. eisenberg. from the protrusion of the scales? mr. stombaugh. from the protrusion of the scales. others will be very small, have a slight protrusion. mr. eisenberg. how was oswald's? mr. stombaugh. it was a very small protrusion. the gapping of oswald's hair was very slight. in other words, between the cuticle and the cortex, the cortex of course containing the color pigment in the hair, occasionally you will find hairs where there will be no color pigment in areas up near the cuticle. there will be a gap there. oswald's hairs, as you can see here, have some gapped areas in there but not too many. they are very irregular, and the gapping does not go down too deeply into the cortex. pigmentation of his hairs was very fine, equally dispersed, and there was some chaining together of the larger pigment granules noted. in other words, three or four of the pigment granules were chained together. instead of being dispersed such as they are in exhibit no. , you would have five or six of them chained together, forming a slight irregular-appearing streak. cortical fusi, the air spaces present in the hairs such as i have drawn here on exhibit , were for the most part absent in his hairs. i found very, very few of them, and would term them absent in his hairs. the medulla in the hairs, those that contained a medulla, was constant. it was a continuous streak for the most part. there were some slight broken areas in it. the hairs of oswald, that did not have a medulla, there was not a trace of one present. it was completely absent. this is unusual. usually, you will find that the hairs will contain a medulla and if not in the ones that appear not to, you can find traces of a medulla present. in his i didn't find any medulla at all in several of the hairs. the root area of his hairs was rather clear of pigment and there was only a fair amount of cortical fusi present. as in drawing no. , in the root area, you ordinarily would find a large amount of cortical fusi which rapidly diminish as you proceed out the hair shaft, and in his there was just a relatively few cortical fusi in the root area. i found this characteristic also in some of the hairs removed from the blanket. basically, that is the--those are the characteristics i used in matching oswald's pubic hairs with pubic hairs from the blanket. mr. eisenberg. you have been discussing the characteristics of oswald's pubic hairs. in each case were the characteristics of the pubic hairs you found in the blanket the same as those you have noted as being present in oswald's pubic hairs? mr. stombaugh. yes, sir; they were all identical. mr. eisenberg. that is as to protrusion of scale, absence of cortical fusi, chaining together to some extent of pigments, and so forth? mr. stombaugh. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. without going through every item, every item you have named was identical? mr. stombaugh. every item i have found in hair from the blanket? mr. eisenberg. yes, sir. mr. stombaugh. yes. mr. eisenberg. could you go on, please? mr. dulles. just one second, off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. dulles. back on the record. mr. eisenberg. you have presented at this point a chart labeled "microphotograph of oswald's limb hairs" on the left, and on the right two subcaptions, "hair from blanket" and "hair from oswald," and do these--were these photographs taken by you or under your supervision? mr. stombaugh. they were taken by me. mr. eisenberg. are they accurate reproductions of the material which according to the captions they are photographs of? mr. stombaugh. yes; they are. mr. eisenberg. i would like this admitted as , mr. chairman. mr. dulles. it will be admitted as . (commission exhibit no. was marked, and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. could you briefly discuss this exhibit? mr. stombaugh. exhibit is similar to exhibit in that both contain two photographs. the photograph on the left is an overall shot of oswald's limb hairs. mr. eisenberg. that is the known? mr. stombaugh. that is the known from oswald. the photograph on the right contains photographs of two hairs, in this same photograph, the hair on the right being a limb hair from oswald, and the hair on the left being a hair removed from the blanket. mr. eisenberg. what is the magnification there, mr. stombaugh? mr. stombaugh. the magnification of these is approximately the same as in the previous submission, the one on the right being approximately diameters and the one on the left diameters. now, the one on the right is a limb hair. a limb hair is much smaller in diameter than a pubic hair. that is why there will appear to be some slight change in the size of these hairs. i compared the limb hair from the blanket with the limb hair from oswald which matched in all observable microscopic characteristics. the characteristics i found in this match were the color of the hair was light brown through its entire length, and the width of the hair shaft or the diameter was very fine. there was no fluctuation that one could readily see. the diameter of the hair shaft remained constant to the tip, where it diminished down to a point. the tips of the hairs were very sharp and no abrasion was noted. in other words, the tips of these limb hairs were not rounded as one ordinarily finds. this would indicate the hairs were very tough, the same as the pubic hairs were. mr. eisenberg. are you describing now the known hairs? mr. stombaugh. these are known hairs and the match i made; both. mr. eisenberg. all right. mr. stombaugh. the scales were of medium size, had very slight protrusion, and there was very slight gapping in the pigmentation located in the cortex right against the cuticle of the hair. there was a fair amount of cortical fusi equally distributed throughout the hair shaft. this is not unusual in itself, but the amount of cortical fusi that i did find present is unusual. the medulla was discontinuous, granular, very bulbous, and very uneven. it was not a constant, smooth straight line such as one might find over here in this pubic hair on . there was nothing unusual noted about the root area of these hairs. mr. eisenberg. and again you are describing the characteristics of both hairs, and they were identical in all these characteristics? mr. stombaugh. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. were there any characteristics in which they were not identical? mr. stombaugh. no; not on the limb hair, as i found it matched. i did find limb hairs and pubic hairs and head hairs in this blanket which were dissimilar to oswald's and definitely did not come from him but the hairs i have talked about here matched in all microscopical characteristics. mr. eisenberg. the other hairs, mr. stombaugh, could you make a determination as to race? mr. stombaugh. yes; they were all caucasian. mr. eisenberg. could you make a determination as to sex or age? mr. stombaugh. no; it is not possible to determine sex or age from an examination of a hair. mr. eisenberg. could you make a determination as to the number of individuals who had contributed these hairs? mr. stombaugh. no; i couldn't. you would have to have a hair sample from any suspected person, and hairs vary tremendously. even on the same individual head hairs from the same individual can vary from one head area to another. i have found as many as to different types of hair on the same person's head. so, therefore, it would not be possible to estimate the number of different people whose hairs have appeared on this blanket. mr. eisenberg. now, mr. stombaugh, are you able to say that the limb hairs and pubic hairs which you found in the blanket and which you have matched with oswald's in observable microscopic characteristics came from oswald to the exclusion of any other individual? mr. stombaugh. no; i couldn't say that. i could say that these hairs could have come from oswald. i could not say they definitely came from him to the exclusion of all other caucasian persons in the world. in order to say this, one would have to take hair samples from all of these people and compare them and this, of course, is impossible. mr. eisenberg. what degree of probability do you think there is that these hairs came from oswald? and without putting a precise number on it, let's suppose you took head hairs from caucasian individuals, how many matches would you expect to find among those hundred different hairs on the basis of your experience? mr. stombaugh. on the basis of my experience i would expect to find only one match. mr. eisenberg. that is to say that the hairs would be different from each other? mr. stombaugh. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. is your experience, therefore, that the hairs of different individuals do not match in observable microscopic characteristics--within the basis of your experience? mr. stombaugh. within the basis of my experience, i have examined thousands of hairs and i have never found caucasian hairs from two different individuals that match. mr. eisenberg. now, when you say that, mr. stombaugh, have you been presented with hairs in your laboratory from caucasian individuals which you knew before the examination came from two or more individuals? mr. stombaugh. yes. we have obtained samples of hairs from a hundred different people, and would select one hair, give it to an examiner and ask who it originated from, and invariably he would be able to find in the hundred different samples the individual the hair originated from. mr. eisenberg. now, when a specimen comes into your laboratory, does it frequently come in--and i am talking now about specimens that come in from a crime--does it frequently come in such, so that you have two specimens, two or more specimens, which you know before you begin are from two different people? mr. stombaugh. yes. mr. eisenberg. you are told before you begin that they come from two different people? mr. stombaugh. yes, sir; ordinarily a case such as a murder or a rape, you will obtain the clothing of the victim, the clothing of the suspect in the case, as well as hair samples from the victim and hair samples from the suspect. mr. eisenberg. how many types of cases like this do you think you have processed? mr. stombaugh. processed approximately a year. mr. eisenberg. for how many years? mr. stombaugh. four years--no, three years. mr. eisenberg. in any of these approximately , cases, have you found a case involving caucasian hairs in which the hairs from the known two different individuals matched in observable physical characteristics microscopically? mr. stombaugh. no, sir; i have never found hair from two different caucasian persons that matched. mr. eisenberg. have you found any in non-caucasian hairs, by the way? mr. stombaugh. i have found several cases in which hairs from two different persons of the negroid race, although the hairs did not match completely, the characteristics were such that i felt that i could not go further with the examination because i could not exclude the hairs. the hairs were too similar. when i make a hair match. i know that any case might go to court, and of course i want to be absolutely certain in my mind. in these cases i am referring to right now, the hair sample from the victim and the hair sample from the suspect were pubic hairs. they were so similar to each other that i could not find any pubic hairs that i could match with the suspect's pubic hairs, and be certain in my mind that these hairs came from him rather than her. i couldn't do this. so, therefore, i sent the evidence back without further conclusion. this has happened in approximately three cases. however, i would like to point out that i could not take his, the suspect's pubic hairs, and the victim's pubic hairs and completely match them up under a microscope slide such as the match shown in the chart. they did not absolutely match, but they were too similar for a good determination to be made. mr. eisenberg. what proportion of the , cases that you have described--approximately , cases--have involved negroid as opposed to caucasian hairs, just roughly? mr. stombaugh. i would say about approximately a third. of course, a lot of these cases we don't know the race. they don't list the race, but in examining the hairs i can tell the race---- mr. eisenberg. so in , -odd cases of the caucasian hair examinations you haven't matches between hairs from different individuals? mr. stombaugh. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. and in the -odd cases of negroid, -odd cases involving hairs from two different negroid individuals, you have found three cases where although the hairs were not identical they were so close that you felt you didn't want to go further in your examination, is that correct? mr. stombaugh. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. is that a fair recapitulation? mr. stombaugh. yes. mr. dulles. could i just ask a question here? there is a distinction then, as i gather from your testimony, an understandable one, between the comparison of hairs and, say, the comparison of fingerprints, because obviously the hair that you find on the victim has left the assailant and, therefore, you are not looking at the same hair but you are looking at a different hair? mr. stombaugh. that is correct. mr. dulles. and that, therefore, distinguishes testimony in regard to hair, we will say, with regard to fingerprint examination? mr. stombaugh. yes, sir; that, and also a fingerprint will remain the same throughout one's life. it will never change. a hair will. mr. dulles. i see. mr. stombaugh. you can see my hair, i am starting to get white at the temples. mine is changing characteristics. mr. dulles. we all do. but is there--let's say you examine hairs, let's say, that are found on the victim, and hairs that are different hairs that are found on the assailant; let us say that there are certain characteristics common to all of these hairs. do you get my question? let's say , not , whatever number you want to take. mr. stombaugh. ordinarily, you would find one or two. mr. dulles. that have certain characteristics. you have pointed out on exhibit--on the left-hand side of exhibit , the circle you have made on , circle a. is there a common characteristic that you have marked on one of the other hairs? i believe the hair marked with the "a," was taken from oswald himself, the hair on which you have marked that particular characteristic. is there any corresponding characteristic that should be marked or indicated on a hair that was found on the blanket? mr. stombaugh. well, i testified as to all the characteristics i found. mr. dulles. yes. mr. stombaugh. now, the difficulty in using a photomicrograph, you are trying to photograph a round object and as a result of this all of these characteristics just won't appear in focus. mr. eisenberg. to be more specific, mr. stombaugh, that circle marked "a" was to show a nobbiness in oswald's hair. as i recall, you testified there was very little nobbiness present in that pubic hair, as opposed to the normal amount of nobbiness of pubic hair? mr. stombaugh. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. on the right-hand side of , i suppose we don't see much or any nobbiness in either the known or---- mr. stombaugh. no; there is none present here. mr. eisenberg. so that would correspond with the point you made as to "a," that there was very little nobbiness? mr. stombaugh. very little. mr. eisenberg. and that is why there is no corresponding mark for nobbiness characteristic on the right-hand side, is that correct? mr. stombaugh. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. the right-hand side of ? mr. stombaugh. that is correct. oswald's hairs, where the nobbiness did appear was in the lower third, in other words, the area from the root out on the shaft approximately one-third. the remaining two-thirds of the hair shaft all the way out to the tip was relatively straight, no nobbiness at all present. this was characteristic. ordinarily a pubic hair will have this nobbiness two-thirds to three-fourths of the way up. so this was a characteristic which exists in oswald's pubic hairs which is different from the ordinary or average. mr. dulles. and you found that both on the hairs taken from oswald himself and on the hairs found in the blanket? mr. stombaugh. yes; i did. mr. eisenberg. mr. stombaugh, on this general point, when you make your comparison examination, do you come to your conclusions on the basis of what you see under the microscope, or on the basis of the photographs you take? mr. stombaugh. on the basis of what i see under the microscope. mr. eisenberg. do you usually take photographs? mr. stombaugh. no, sir. mr. eisenberg. and you took them--can you explain why you took them here? mr. stombaugh. i took these at your request as an exhibit just to show what the hairs looked like. in a photograph it is very hard to try to point out the characteristics of hairs because they aren't clear. under a microscope you can see each of these points by focusing up and down. if i am looking at the pigment on the hair, i can focus the comparison microscope up and down and see exactly the same characteristics, the pigment is exactly the same size, dispersed about the same, and there is approximately the same amount of pigment in a given area. also, the cuticle is of the same thickness. i can line the hairs up longitudinally and see that the tips of the scales match equally as far as protrusion and distance goes. this you couldn't show in the photographs. in order to show each and every characteristic in photographs, i would have to take or different photographs. mr. eisenberg. so these photographs are just as a general illustration of the kind of thing you see, rather than being given to the commission as photographs from which the commission is to make an identification? mr. stombaugh. that is correct. if i were to look at these photographs myself, i couldn't make an identification on them because i wouldn't be able to see enough and i would say this looks like this and this looks like this, but so what? what about the size of the pigments, what about the size of the scales, what about the thickness of the cuticle? i see a medulla here, i don't see a medulla over here. so you just couldn't see all the characteristics in a photograph. mr. eisenberg. but these characteristics you do see as you change the focus on the microscope? mr. stombaugh. yes; these appear by looking through different areas of the hair shaft itself. mr. eisenberg. now, getting to the microscope itself, suppose a person without experience looked through the microscope directly at the hairs. would he be able to directly interpret the hairs--a known and a questioned hair--to see if they are probably identical, or does it take experience even to interpret what you see through a microscope? mr. stombaugh. this takes experience to interpret what you see. we get quite a few people through the lab on tours and every now and then i will set up some hairs. i had one man making a match with a dog hair and a human hair, and he said they came from the same person, because he couldn't interpret what he saw. he just thought he saw something which he didn't. mr. eisenberg. mr. stombaugh, could you tell from these hairs that you found in the blanket, and let me add parenthetically we sometimes have been calling this blanket a rug but we have been talking about the object---- mr. dulles. you call it a blanket, technically. mr. eisenberg. technically a blanket, and it is exhibit . this exhibit , mr. stombaugh, could you tell whether these hairs had been pulled out or had fallen out? mr. stombaugh. these hairs had fallen out naturally. they have died and fallen from the body. this is a very normal occurrence. when one combs one's hair, ordinarily you will find one or two strands of hair on the comb, because hair is constantly being replaced in most people. mr. eisenberg. how can you tell it had fallen out? mr. stombaugh. from the shape of the root. mr. eisenberg. what is the difference of the shape of the root where a hair falls out and the shape of the hair of a root where it has been taken out artificially or unnaturally? mr. stombaugh. in exhibit , i have a photomicrograph of a root of a human hair. now, this hair has died and has fallen out naturally, you can tell by the shape of it here. the follicle has just come right along with it. it is starting to shrivel. if this hair was a healthy hair and had been forcibly removed, this root would have been collapsed and twisted. it is very characteristic, it is easy to tell whether a hair has been forcibly removed or whether it fell out naturally. mr. eisenberg. suppose it is cut, suppose the hair was cut, can you tell that? mr. stombaugh. yes, we can tell from looking at the tip of a hair whether it has been cut, burned, crushed, and whether it has been cut with a sharp instrument, such as a razor, or whether it has been cut with a dull instrument. mr. eisenberg. were these hairs cut, the hairs in , that you found in exhibit ? mr. stombaugh. some of the tips of the head hairs had been cut, but the limb hairs and the pubic hairs had not. mr. eisenberg. but they all had roots on them? mr. stombaugh. they all had roots on them. mr. eisenberg. getting back to the blanket for a moment, as to the composition, you testified that there were woolen, viscose, and cotton fibers. i don't recall whether you said that there were green and brown fibers of each type of textile? mr. stombaugh. yes, each type had green and brown fibers. mr. eisenberg. now, also getting back to the shape of the blanket when you received it, the shape of and its folds, we had discussed a crease which you marked "c," which you said was caused by an object inches long, and we discussed whether the object was inches long or could have been longer. how long was the crease "c"? mr. stombaugh. the crease "c," the hump in the blanket itself, was approximately inches long. mr. eisenberg. and did that run--as the blanket is folded, and looking from "a" to the general area of "d"--and putting "a" at the left-hand side--can you tell us how that crease ran, did it run from left to right or from top to bottom? mr. stombaugh. it ran from left to right. mr. eisenberg. it ran from left to right, and about inches long? mr. stombaugh. approximately inches long. mr. eisenberg. as i recall, you testified it was caused by a distortion in the fibers, that is to say, the fact the crease was still present even though there was no object in the blanket was caused by a distortion of the fibers? mr. stombaugh. yes, sir; the fibers had been stretched in this area--not the fibers, the yarns. mr. dulles. can one see that on the blanket itself? mr. eisenberg. let's take a look at , mr. stombaugh, and see if it is still present? mr. stombaugh. if i can find where it was here. i doubt if it will still be present because the creases on the edges of the blanket are gone. i can't tell. it has been folded so much. no. i can't see it. when i received the blanket in the laboratory, i noticed, when i put the blanket down flat, it had an area that was humped just like this. mr. eisenberg. you have put a pencil underneath? mr. stombaugh. yes. mr. eisenberg. and you have picked it up an inch or two, you have made a hump of about an inch or an inch and a half up from the rest of the blanket, is that correct? mr. stombaugh. yes. but it was very slight and you could hardly notice it, but i happened to look at the blanket from a distance and saw the hump and went over to measure it. but we tried to photograph it and we just couldn't get it. we tried various ways of lighting. so i made a notation in my notes regarding that slight hump. mr. eisenberg. now, just to make the record clear, the hump was inches long, and therefore you felt that the object immediately causing the hump must have been approximately inches long, is that correct? mr. stombaugh. yes. the object causing the hump itself. mr. eisenberg. but could it have been attached to an object which was longer than inches, or could it have been attached to an object, running underneath the object causing the protrusion, which was longer than inches? mr. stombaugh. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. okay. that is what i think was the source of the confusion earlier. now, you placed this mark "c" on this paper illustration, exhibit . does that--does the placement of the mark approximate the general area where you found the hump? mr. stombaugh. yes, approximately, according to my notes. it could be to the left a little or to the right a little. this isn't to scale. mr. eisenberg. one last question on the blanket, mr. stombaugh. could you form any opinion as to the quality of the blanket? mr. stombaugh. well, the composition of the blanket being mostly viscose, a very cheap synthetic, indicated to me that it was an inferior blanket, relatively inexpensive. mr. eisenberg. could you determine whether it was a domestic or a foreign product? mr. stombaugh. no, i couldn't. mr. eisenberg. it might have been either? mr. stombaugh. could have been either, yes. mr. eisenberg. now, mr. stombaugh, i hand you a photograph which is labeled on the bottom "c , commission exhibit ." it is a color photograph of a brownish textured shirt, long-sleeved, with a hole in the right elbow, and i ask you whether you recognize the shirt that is pictured in that photograph? mr. stombaugh. yes, i do. mr. eisenberg. can you see your mark anywhere on that? mr. stombaugh. yes, my mark is in red, initials "pms" are in the collar of the shirt. mr. eisenberg. "pms" being your initials, paul m. stombaugh? mr. stombaugh. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. may i have this photograph admitted? mr. dulles. it will be admitted, . (the photograph referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and was received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. let me state for the record we are introducing the photograph at this point rather than the shirt itself because depositions are being taken in dallas simultaneously with the testimony being elicited today, and the shirt is being used by those members of the staff who are in dallas. mr. dulles. i understand. mr. eisenberg. when did you receive this shirt that is pictured in exhibit , said shirt being commission exhibit ? mr. stombaugh. i received this shirt the same day i received the blanket, which was november , , approximately : a.m. mr. eisenberg. now, did you conduct an examination to determine the composition of this shirt? mr. stombaugh. yes, i did. mr. eisenberg. when did you do that? mr. stombaugh. i did this later on that morning. mr. eisenberg. what were your conclusions as to the composition, mr. stombaugh? mr. stombaugh. the shirt is composed of gray-black cotton, dark blue cotton, and orange-yellow cotton fibers. the dark yarn in the shirt is composed of a mixture of dark blue and gray-black cotton fibers twisted together, and the light yellowish orange looking colors here, the yarns in this part of the shirt were composed of orange-yellow cotton fibers. mr. eisenberg. did you examine the shirt to determine--pardon me, mr. dulles, were you going to put a question on the composition? mr. dulles. no. mr. eisenberg. did you examine the shirt to determine the presence of hairs or other debris? mr. stombaugh. no, i didn't. mr. eisenberg. you did not? mr. stombaugh. no, sir. mr. eisenberg. neither then or at any subsequent time? mr. stombaugh. no, sir. mr. eisenberg. could you take a look at your notes on that, mr. stombaugh, to make sure about that? mr. stombaugh. no, sir; i did not remove the debris from the shirt. i noted in my notes the two buttons from the top were forcibly removed, the right elbow area was worn through, the bottom front inside of the shirt was ripped forcibly, and that i had made a known sample of this shirt. mr. eisenberg. mr. stombaugh, i had been under the impression you found some wax on that shirt. mr. stombaugh. yes; down the face of the shirt i did find some wax adhering to it, and this wax i removed and delivered to the spectrographic unit for a spectrographic examination. mr. eisenberg. does that show in your notes? mr. stombaugh. yes; i was looking for debris and hairs. i knew i had not scraped the shirt. mr. eisenberg. i am using the wrong term, i guess. mr. stombaugh. i recall doing this. this was later in the afternoon when i removed this wax and took it to the spectrographic unit. this was after i had conducted other examinations on some other items. mr. eisenberg. for the record, we had an earlier discussion, and you had mentioned this to me in an earlier discussion, as i recall---- mr. stombaugh. yes; that is correct. mr. eisenberg. which prompted me to ask you the question. did you find any body hairs on this shirt--or any hairs, i should say? mr. stombaugh. i didn't look for hairs on this shirt. this type of examination had not been requested. it seemed unnecessary. mr. eisenberg. mr. stombaugh, were you able to determine the quality of the shirt or did you form any opinion as to the quality of the shirt? mr. stombaugh. yes; it was an inexpensive shirt. i found no labels in it indicating the manufacturer. mr. dulles. any indication that labels had been torn out? mr. stombaugh. not that i recall, sir. mr. eisenberg. were you able to determine, mr. stombaugh, whether this was a domestic, whether this was of domestic or foreign origin? mr. stombaugh. no; there are so many different shirt manufacturers in this country, that there is little value in trying to trace down a particular source unless we can find a manufacturer's marking in the shirt. mr. eisenberg. any laundry marks which you attempted to trace down? mr. stombaugh. i found no laundry marks. the shirt was well worn and appeared to have been hand laundered. mr. eisenberg. if there are no further questions on the shirt, i will move on to another item. mr. stombaugh, i now hand you a homemade paper bag, commission exhibit , which parenthetically has also received another exhibit no. , and ask you whether you are familiar with this item? mr. stombaugh. yes; i am. mr. eisenberg. does that have your mark on it? mr. stombaugh. at the time i examined this, it was to be treated for latent fingerprints subsequent to my examination, and in a case like this i will not put a mark on the item itself because my mark might cover a latent fingerprint which is later brought up, and therefore obscure it. in this particular instance, i made a drawing of this bag on my notes with the various sizes and description of it to refresh my memory at a later date. mr. eisenberg. and it is--looking at those notes and as you remember now--this is the bag? mr. stombaugh. this is the bag. mr. eisenberg. now, this bag has an area of very light-brown color, and the greater portion of the area is a quite dark-brownish color. what was the color when you originally received it? mr. stombaugh. when i originally received this it was a light-brown color. mr. eisenberg. which is at one end of the bag? mr. stombaugh. one end of the bag. mr. eisenberg. the tape is also two colors, one a lightish brown and the other a darkish brown. what color was the tape when you received it? mr. stombaugh. the tape also was light brown. mr. eisenberg. could you turn the bag over? was it the color that shows as a lighter yellowish-type of brown? mr. stombaugh. yes; a yellow-brown shade. mr. eisenberg. when did you receive it, by the way, mr. stombaugh? mr. stombaugh. this was received on november , : a.m., . mr. eisenberg. did you form any opinions as you examined it, concerning the construction of the bag? mr. stombaugh. when i looked at the bag and examined it, it struck me as being a homemade bag such as i could make. occasionally i will have a need for something like this at home. therefore, i will take some brown paper and a strip of tape home with me. then when i get home i will fold the tape--fold the paper rather--in the shape i need--and to seal it up i will tear strips of the sealing tape from the little piece i have. here we find that this tape has been torn at several places, such as one would do in an instance like that. due to these torn edges, i was under the impression, from looking at the bag, that it was a homemade bag which someone had made at home and they did not have a tape dispenser which machine-cuts tape. therefore, they had to tear it, which they did--or cut it, of course--with a knife. and this is the case where pieces of tape were torn. mr. eisenberg. you were pointing to various torn edges as you testified, is that correct? mr. stombaugh. yes; that is correct. mr. eisenberg. how many, if any, square-cut edges did you notice? mr. stombaugh. i found--according to my drawing--two machine-cut edges. mr. eisenberg. would that indicate--well, do you form any opinion as to, on the basis of that, as to the origin, possible origin, of the tape? mr. stombaugh. the origin of the tape as far as the manufacturer---- mr. eisenberg. what i am referring to is this: on the basis of that would you draw an inference that the person had taken--whoever made this bag--had taken two lengths of tape from a dispensing machine and had subsequently torn it up into smaller strips, or do you think he had one length of tape from a dispensing machine which he subsequently tore up into smaller strips? mr. stombaugh. from the ends that i could see, now i don't know whether there were any ends underneath which i did not have a chance to look at, i don't have anything in my notes, but from what i can see it would appear he took a strip of tape, machine-cut from a dispenser, and used that entire strip, thus using up both ends of the tape because we have two machine-cut ends. mr. eisenberg. in other words, it would be a machine-cut strip at the beginning of the tape which the person pulled out, left over from the last cut? mr. stombaugh. that is right. mr. eisenberg. and a machine-cut at the end, where the person himself ripped the tape from the machine? mr. stombaugh. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. and you infer that he then divided it into smaller strips on the occasion when he made the bag? mr. stombaugh. yes, sir; he pulled one strip, of course, he could have pulled two or three strips, i don't know, but it would appear he took one strip of tape and tore it into smaller pieces to be used on the bag. mr. eisenberg. did you notice any bulges or creases or folds apart from the fold used in making of the bag? mr. stombaugh. no; i didn't. i noticed that one end of the bag had been torn. mr. eisenberg. now, would you say that the absence of bulges would be inconsistent with the carrying of a heavy object or an irregularly shaped object in the bag? mr. stombaugh. well, i don't believe i am qualified to answer that question, because i actually am not an expert in paper. mr. eisenberg. all right. we will leave that to the questioned document examiner and we will take it up with him. did you notice anything else about the bag relating to its gross physical characteristics and its shape, apart from any debris which you may have found inside or outside the bag? mr. stombaugh. no, sir; just an oblong homemade bag was the impression i received from looking at it. mr. eisenberg. do you think it was, if it was in fact a homemade bag, do you think it was a well-made bag, mr. stombaugh? did you form any opinion as to that? mr. stombaugh. in my opinion, just a personal opinion, the person was aware as to how to make a bag, to seal the ends by folding both corners in and then folding them flat. mr. eisenberg. you just demonstrated that both corners originally were folded by the crease lines, and you folded it over again to show how it was made? mr. stombaugh. yes; this makes a neat and also a secure corner or end to the bag, to prevent losing any of the contents. mr. eisenberg. mr. stombaugh, did you examine the outside of this paper bag---- mr. stombaugh. yes; i did. mr. eisenberg. exhibit and also , to see if there were any foreign items on the surface? mr. stombaugh. yes; i did. mr. eisenberg. and what did you find? mr. stombaugh. i found that the bag had previously been dusted for latent fingerprints because i found traces of what appeared to be fingerprint powder on it. i was using white gloves at the time i examined this and the gloves became quite soiled from the fingerprint powder. mr. eisenberg. did you find anything else? mr. stombaugh. no; nothing on the outside of the bag. mr. eisenberg. how did you conduct that examination, by the way? mr. stombaugh. with a low-power microscope. mr. eisenberg. did you find any cotton fibers on the outside of the bag at all, mr. stombaugh, white or colored? mr. stombaugh. there were white cotton fibers on the outside but i was using a pair of white cotton gloves, so these would be of no value. white cotton is the most common thing we have in the way of textiles, and therefore it just doesn't have sufficient individual characteristics to be of value for comparison and identification purposes. it is for this reason that we use gloves of this material. mr. eisenberg. and those fibers may have come from your white cotton gloves? mr. stombaugh. yes; they could very easily have come from my gloves from handling the object with a pair of gloves on. mr. eisenberg. did you proceed to examine the inside of the paper bag to see if there were any foreign objects? mr. stombaugh. yes; i did. mr. eisenberg. what were your conclusions? mr. stombaugh. i removed the debris from the inside of the bag by opening the bag as best i could, and tapping it and knocking the debris on to a small piece of white paper, and i found a very small number of fibers. upon examining these fibers, i found a single brown, delustered, viscose fiber and several light-green cotton fibers from the inside of the bag. i also found a minute particle of wood and a single particle of a waxy substance. mr. eisenberg. did you attach any significance to the particle of wood, mr. stombaugh? mr. stombaugh. no; it was too minute for identification purposes. it could have come from any surface, including the bag itself. sometimes all of the wood used in the manufacture of paper doesn't go into a pulp, and this might be a very tiny such fragment. mr. eisenberg. did you examine the wood fragment? mr. stombaugh. i looked at it microscopically. mr. eisenberg. did you attempt to compare it with the wood of the exhibit , which is a rifle? mr. stombaugh. yes; the wood particle from the bag was too minute for comparison purposes. there wasn't much you could do with it, it was very small. mr. eisenberg. did you attach any significance to the body wax--or to the wax, i should say? mr. stombaugh. the wax particle i noticed, and i recalled having seen wax on the shirt, exhibit no. , so therefore i put that aside for a spectrographic examination and comparison of the wax particle from the inside of the bag with the wax from the shirt. mr. eisenberg. and what were the results? mr. stombaugh. they were entirely different. mr. eisenberg. was there any analysis made of the wax in the bag as to its origin, do you know? mr. stombaugh. it was examined by the spectrographic examiner and he found it was just common wax. mr. eisenberg. when you say common wax, do you mean the kind you wax a floor with? mr. stombaugh. no; more like that which could have come from a candle, candle wax. mr. eisenberg. what about the wax on the shirt as to origin? mr. stombaugh. it was paraffin. mr. eisenberg. now you also said there were several fibers, mr. stombaugh? mr. stombaugh. yes, sir; i did. there was a single brown delustered viscose fiber and several light-green cotton fibers. mr. eisenberg. did this single brown viscose fiber match the fibers from the blanket, exhibit ? mr. stombaugh. yes; it did. mr. eisenberg. in what characteristics were they matched? mr. stombaugh. the fibers in the blanket had a large number of brown viscose fibers, delustered and one fiber i found in the bag was also a viscose fiber of the same type and color as seen under a low-powered microscope. the delustering spots seen on the fiber were the same size, and both fibers were approximately the same diameter. mr. eisenberg. how common is viscose, mr. stombaugh, as a fiber? mr. stombaugh. viscose is fairly common. it is used in many types of garments; it depends on the quality of the garment. mr. eisenberg. and this was delustered viscose, did you say? mr. stombaugh. yes. mr. eisenberg. how common is delustered viscose? mr. stombaugh. it is most common, i would say. it is more common than lustrous. mr. eisenberg. generally speaking, how many variations of diameter would a delustered viscose come in? mr. stombaugh. this is entirely up to the manufacturer. he can make viscose any diameter he wants, and there could be hundreds of variations in the diameter of viscose fibers. mr. eisenberg. but the fiber you found in the paper bag, , matched the fibers you found in the exhibit ? mr. stombaugh. yes, sir; but the viscose fibers in the blanket varied in size also. mr. eisenberg. to what extent? mr. stombaugh. there were to different diameters of viscose in this blanket. it appeared to me as if the blanket was made of scrap viscose, scrap fibers. mr. eisenberg. so that the diameters would be random? mr. stombaugh. they were random; yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. now, what about the color, was the color a match between the fiber found in --in --and the fiber which is in the composition of , the blanket? mr. stombaugh. yes; the color matched some of the viscose fibers, the brown viscose fibers in the blanket. of course, these colors also varied slightly but not to any great extent, not like the diameter. mr. eisenberg. were there any other common characteristics between the viscose fibers found in the blanket and the viscose fibers found in the paper bag? mr. stombaugh. the viscose fiber i found in the bag matched in all observable microscopic characteristics some of the viscose fibers found in the composition of this blanket. this would be the diameter, the diameter of that same fiber would have the same size of delustering markings, same shape, same form, and also same color. mr. eisenberg. now, what about the green cotton fiber that you found in the paper bag, mr. stombaugh, how did that compare with the green cotton fiber--was it a green cotton fiber that your testimony mentioned? mr. stombaugh. yes; there were several light green cotton fibers. mr. eisenberg. how did they compare with the green cotton fibers which are contained in the composition of the blanket? mr. stombaugh. these matched in all observable microscopic characteristics. mr. eisenberg. and those were what? mr. stombaugh. the color and the amount of twist of the cotton fibers were the same as the color and twist found in these. mainly the color is what we go by on cotton. mr. eisenberg. were they mercerized or unmercerized? mr. stombaugh. they were not mercerized. mr. eisenberg. how common is cotton as a fiber, mr. stombaugh? mr. stombaugh. cotton is the most common fiber used. mr. eisenberg. and what about nonmercerized cotton, as to commonness? mr. stombaugh. you would find more unmercerized cotton in use than mercerized, because to mercerize cotton is an added production factor used in cotton. mr. eisenberg. how great a variation do you get in degree of twist? mr. stombaugh. you are referring to between mercerized and un---- mr. eisenberg. no; within unmercerized cotton. mr. stombaugh. this would depend on the quality of the cotton and the length of the cotton also. mr. eisenberg. but i mean as samples come across your desk in your office, or as you read about them in books, is there a great variation in twist or a small variation? mr. stombaugh. it depends--there is a small variation but this would depend on the type of cotton. there are different types of cotton, and each is determined from the length of the individual cotton fiber. mr. eisenberg. could you tell what kind of cotton you were dealing with in the blanket? mr. stombaugh. no; because here we are not dealing with a full-length cotton fiber. we are dealing with a fragment of a single fiber. mr. eisenberg. now, could you determine whether there was a variation in the twist of the cotton fibers within the blanket itself as there was, you say, in the diameter of the viscose fibers? mr. stombaugh. the twist seemed to coincide with the twist found in the cotton from the blanket. mr. eisenberg. yes. but looking just to the blanket now for a second, you said the brown viscose or the viscose generally in the blanket itself varied as to diameter. did the cotton in the blanket vary within itself as to twist or was the cotton of a fairly uniform twist? mr. stombaugh. no; it was fairly uniform twist. mr. eisenberg. and you said the fibers you found, the green cotton fibers you found, in the bag were the same twist as the twist of the cottons which composed the blanket? mr. stombaugh. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. and just to tie this into the questions i was asking a few seconds ago, would this degree of twist be significant, that is can you determine under the microscope different kinds of degrees of twist or --how many different degrees of twist can you determine under a microscope, just approximately? mr. stombaugh. are you referring to the same type of cotton---- mr. eisenberg. well, when you get a piece of cotton? mr. stombaugh. or cotton as a whole? mr. eisenberg. when you get a piece of cotton under the microscope and you don't know what type it is? i am referring to cotton as a whole. mr. stombaugh. i see. the degree of twist could be--now if we are dealing with fresh cotton, cotton running right from the plant, then the degree of twist, this varies, and this could be used in the identification of the type of cotton. but in the manufacturing process quite frequently when the cotton is spun into yarns then this twist is affected. mr. eisenberg. well, at this point i am not interested in determining the type of cotton. what i am interested in is determining how significant the degree of twist is as an identifying factor. mr. stombaugh. i would say no significance at all as far as the sole identifying characteristic goes, whether or not this cotton of this cotton has the same twist. the twist we use is for identification purposes only, supplementing other identifying characteristics. mr . eisenberg. that is the only purpose i am interested in. mr . stombaugh. yes; that is the only purpose. mr . eisenberg. but in getting to that, how valuable is it for identification purposes? i am curious as to how many--how much a twist can vary. as you pick up a random fiber, and put it under your microscope, i am interested in how much the twist can vary. for example, if there are only two possibilities, then it isn't too helpful that you get a match in twist, but if there are great variations in twist in cotton fibers as they come under your microscope, it would be helpful in making your identification. mr . stombaugh. i see what you are getting at. there are great variations. sometimes in a cotton fiber, the twist will be rather far apart. other times it will be rather close together. this piece---- mr. eisenberg. so that the fibers, the cotton fibers, to begin with, matched in twist, that is, the cotton fibers you found in the paper bag matched the twist of the ones that are contained in the blanket, and you said they also matched in color? mr. stombaugh. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. i would like to ask you the same question as to color that i asked you as to twist. how many different shades do you think you can distinguish under the microscope in a green cotton? would the range be just or different shades, or do you think you could distinguish between or different types of green cotton if you laid them next to each other under the microscope? mr. stombaugh. no; the range in green cotton fibers, for that matter in any color, is tremendous. this could go to sometimes different shades which you can distinguish under a microscope. to the naked eye, it would look as if it is just green. but you could take, say five different fabrics of the same type that have been dyed exactly the same color or rather you think they are the same shade, and put the individual fibers under the microscope and there will be a big difference noted in shades. mr. eisenberg. now were the green cotton fibers in the blanket uniform as to shade between themselves? mr. stombaugh. no; these varied. mr. eisenberg. to what extent? mr. stombaugh. they go from a green to a very pale green. mr. eisenberg. so that the---- mr. stombaugh. might be seven or eight different shades. mr. eisenberg. so when you say there is a match, you mean the green cotton fibers you found in the paper bag were within the spectrum of shades that are laid out in the green cotton fibers from the blanket--is that correct? mr. stombaugh. no. i forget how many different shades of green i found in this blanket. under the circumstances, i considered the exact number of no particular significance. but we will say it might be possibly eight different separate shades, and the fibers i found from the blanket matched some of these shades. not all of them; but there might be a medium-green fiber that i found in the bag, which i matched with a medium-green fiber from this blanket. it might have been one that had a yellowish-green tinge to it, which i also matched with the yellowish-green tinged cotton fibers from the blanket. so unless the colors match absolutely, there is no match. mr. eisenberg. do you recall how many green cotton fibers you found in the paper bag? mr. stombaugh. i have here in my notes "several"-- mr. eisenberg. yes? mr. stombaugh. i have here in my notes "several light green cotton fibers," which would be approximately two or three. mr. eisenberg. do you recall whether they represented two or three different shades? mr. stombaugh. yes; they were all different from each other but each matched the cotton fibers in the blanket. mr. eisenberg. so you had two or three cotton fibers of two or three shades of green in the bag, and they matched against these two or three of the seven or eight shades of green cotton which were in the blanket, is that a correct recapitulation? mr. stombaugh. yes. mr. eisenberg. and you say there are to --approximately--green shades of cotton that can be distinguished under the microscope? mr. stombaugh. yes; i would say that is true. this would vary from dark green, of course, all the way up to light-pale green. mr. eisenberg. did you find anything else within the bag, mr. stombaugh? mr. stombaugh. no, sir; that is all i found inside the bag. mr. eisenberg. now, what do you think the degree of probability is, if you can form an opinion, that the fibers from the bag, fibers in the bag, ultimately came from the blanket? mr. stombaugh. when you get into mathematical probabilities, it is something i stay away from, since in general there are too many unknown factors. all i would say here is that it is possible that these fibers could have come from this blanket, because this blanket is composed of brown and green woolen fibers, brown and green delustered viscose fibers, and brown and green cotton fibers. now these different types of fibers have different general colors, and if we would multiply that, say by a minimum of different shades of each so you would have different shades you are looking for, and different types of fibers. here we have only found brown viscose fiber, and or light green cotton fibers. we found no brown cotton fibers, no green viscose fibers, and no woolen fibers. so if i had found all of these then i would have been able to say these fibers probably had come from this blanket. but since i found so few, then i would say the possibility exists, these fibers could have come from this blanket. mr. eisenberg. now, let me ask you a hypothetical question, mr. stombaugh. first, i hand you commission exhibit , which consists of a rifle found on the sixth floor of the texas school book depository building, and i ask you, if the rifle had lain in the blanket, which is , and were then put inside the bag, , could it have picked up fibers from the blanket and transferred them to the bag? mr. stombaugh. yes. mr. eisenberg. are there any further questions as to the blanket? mr. dulles. do you have any, mr. murray? mr. murray. i have none, mr. dulles. mr. eisenberg. do you recognize exhibit ? are you familiar with that? mr. stombaugh. yes; i am. mr. eisenberg. did you examine that in the laboratory? mr. stombaugh. yes; i did. mr. eisenberg. do you know when you made that examination? mr. stombaugh. on the morning of november , . mr. eisenberg. is your mark on it? mr. stombaugh. yes, sir; here is my mark. mr. eisenberg. which consists of your initials? mr. stombaugh. my initials, and the date - - . do you mind if i check to see if this is unloaded? mr. eisenberg. did you examine the rifle to determine whether it contained on its surface or crevices any hair or other debris? mr. stombaugh. yes; i did. mr. eisenberg. can you tell us how you made that examination? mr. stombaugh. yes, sir. the gun was to be treated for latent fingerprints also, so i wore a pair of white cotton gloves to protect any latents that might be present on the gun. i placed the gun under a low-powered microscope and examined the gun from the end of the barrel to the end of the stock, removing what fibers i could find from crevices adhering to the gun. i noticed immediately upon receiving the gun that this gun had been dusted for latent fingerprints prior to my receiving it. latent fingerprint powder was all over the gun; it was pretty well dusted off, and at the time i noted to myself that i doubted very much if there would be any fibers adhering to the outside of this gun--i possibly might find some in a crevice some place--because when the latent fingerprint man dusted this gun, apparently in dallas, they use a little brush to dust with they would have dusted any fibers off the gun at the same time; so this i noted before i ever started to really examine the gun. mr. eisenberg. were you unhappy at all about that? mr. stombaugh. i was; however, it is not uncommon for fingerprint processing to be given priority consideration. they wanted to know whether or not the gun contained any fibers to show that it had been stored in this blanket, and with all the obstructions and the crevices on the metal parts of this gun, ordinarily a fiber would adhere pretty well, unless you take a brush and brush it off, and then you brush it on the floor and it is lost. mr. eisenberg. who was "they," you said "they" wanted to know? mr. stombaugh. well, this is our dallas office. they sent the gun in wanting to know this fact. mr. eisenberg. proceed. mr. dulles. it was dusted by the dallas police, was it, first? mr. stombaugh. i don't know who dusted it. mr. eisenberg. for the record, i believe that will be shown later that it was dusted by dallas police. as far as you know, did it come into your office, into your laboratory before it went to the identification division, latent fingerprint section? mr. stombaugh. yes; i received this gun from special agent vincent drain of the dallas fbi office. it was crated very well. i opened the crate myself and put my initials on the gun and at that time i noted it had been dusted for latent prints. so i proceeded to pick off what fibers were left from the small crevices and small grease deposits which were left on the gun. at this point of the butt plate, the end of the stock---- mr. eisenberg. let's get that a little more specific if we can. can you point to that again? mr. stombaugh. in this area, the butt plate of the stock, this is a metal butt plate, you can see the jagged edge on it. mr. eisenberg. that is on the left side of the butt plate? mr. stombaugh. it is on the left side; yes. mr. eisenberg. in approximately in the middle there is a jagged edge, jagged inside edge, where the butt plate comes into contact with the wood, is that what you are referring to? mr. stombaugh. yes; there is a jagged edge there. this area right here, according to my notes. mr. eisenberg. yes. mr. stombaugh. i found a tiny tuft of fibers which had caught on that jagged edge, and then when the individual who dusted this dusted them, he just folded them down very neatly into the little crevice there, and they stayed. these i removed and put on a glass microscope slide, and marked this particular slide "no. ," because this little group of fibers--little tuft of fibers, appeared to be fresh. the fibers on the rest of the gun were either adhering to a greasy, oily deposit or jammed into a crevice and were very dirty and apparently very old. you can look at a fiber and tell whether it has been beaten around or exposed much. these appeared to be fairly fresh. mr. eisenberg. "these" being the ones that you found in the butt plate crevice? mr. stombaugh. yes; adhering to this small jagged edge. mr. eisenberg. before we get to those, were there any other fibers of value on the rest of the exhibit ? mr. stombaugh. no; the other fibers i cleaned up, removed the grease and examined them but they were of no value. they were pretty well fragmented. mr. eisenberg. you could not make a determination as to their nature? mr. stombaugh. i could tell what type they were. mr. eisenberg. meaning textile type? mr. stombaugh. yes; such as wool, cotton, what-have-you, but the grease and the dirt had changed the colors which ruined the characteristics for comparison purposes. mr. eisenberg. could you tell whether they were old or new? mr. stombaugh. they all appeared old. mr. eisenberg. what about---- mr. dulles. what do you mean by old, or months old, or weeks old? mr. stombaugh. well, a length of time, i would say that in excess of a month or months. mr. dulles. in that area? mr. stombaugh. in that area or longer. they weren't recently put in there. let's say that. mr. eisenberg. what about the grease, did you attempt to examine the grease? mr. stombaugh. no. mr. eisenberg. why was that? mr. stombaugh. i could see no need of it at that time. mr. eisenberg. let's return then to the fibers which you referred to as being fresh, which you said you found in the crevice of the butt plate, and i will ask mr. dulles' question in reverse: what do you mean by fresh, why do you call these fresh? mr. stombaugh. in the first place, this was just a small tuft. they were adhering to the gun on a small jagged edge. in other words, the gun had caught on a piece of fabric and pulled these fibers loose. they were clean, they had good color to them, there was no grease on them and they were not fragmented. they looked as if they had just been picked up. they were folded very neatly down in the crevice. mr. eisenberg. were these fibers in a position where they could have easily been knocked off by rough use? mr. stombaugh. no; they were adhering to the edge rather tightly. mr. eisenberg. in the crevice? mr. stombaugh. well, it had the jagged edge sticking up and the fibers were folded around it and resting in the crevice. mr. dulles. i think you testified, though, that might have been done in part by the dusting? mr. stombaugh. yes, sir; i believe when the fingerprintman dusted it he probably ran his brush along the metal portion here. mr. eisenberg. of the butt plate? mr. stombaugh. of the butt plate, and at the time the brush folded these down into the crevice. mr. eisenberg. what led you to the particular conclusion that they had been folded into the crevice by the dusting? mr. stombaugh. because of the presence of fingerprint powder being down in and through the crevice here. it looked as if it had been dusted with a brush. you could make out the bristlemarks of the brush itself. mr. eisenberg. now assuming your conclusion is accurate that they were dusted into the crevice, and had not been in the crevice originally but had merely adhered to the jagged edge, how much--how rough a handling would it have taken to have gotten them loose from that jagged edge? mr. stombaugh. well, i would imagine if one took a brush and started brushing pretty hard these would have worked loose and come out. mr. eisenberg. would the use of the weapon itself have jarred them loose? mr. stombaugh. i doubt it. i doubt it. mr. eisenberg. i am talking now about the jagged edge position, and not the crevice position. mr. stombaugh. you mean breaking them loose? they were adhering to the jagged edge. mr. eisenberg. yes. mr. stombaugh. it might, of course--there are a lot of factors here you don't know, but they were adhering pretty tightly to the gun. i believe through ordinary handling of the gun eventually they would have worked loose and fallen off. mr. eisenberg. what i can't understand is, when you are talking about the handling of the gun are you talking about the position in which you found them, or are you talking about the position which you deduced they were in before you found them brushed into the crevice? mr. stombaugh. well, both. the position i found them in. i had to take a pair of tweezers and work them out. mr. eisenberg. yes? mr. stombaugh. and after i had the fibers lifted up which could have been the original position they were in, then i had to pull them off. they were wrapped around rather snugly to the sharp edge. mr. eisenberg. now, returning once more to this question of freshness. would you say they had been placed there within hour, or day, or week of the time when you received the rifle or longer? mr. stombaugh. i couldn't say in that regard to any period of time. i refer, by saying they appeared fresh, to the fact that the other fibers i removed from this gun were greasy, mashed, and broken, where these were fairly good long fibers. they were not dirty, with the exception of a little bit of fingerprint powder on them which i cleaned off, and the color was good. they were in good shape, not fragmented. they could conceivably have been put on years ago and then the gun put aside and remain the same. dust would have settled on them, would have changed their color a little bit, but as far as when they got on the gun, i wouldn't be able to say. this would just be speculation on my part. mr. eisenberg. in other words, you concluded they were fresh--well, you said you thought they were fresh, mr. stombaugh, and i don't quite understand now whether you seem to be backing off a little from that? mr. stombaugh. no; i am not trying to do that. i am trying to avoid a specific time element, since there are other factors which may enter. i couldn't--this is something that i won't even attempt to do, just say this was on here for hour or minutes, something like that. but i would say these fibers were put on there in the recent past for this reason. if they had been put on there say , , weeks or so ago, and the gun used every day, these fibers would have come off. am i making myself a little more clear? mr. eisenberg. yes; you are making yourself clear; yes. now, looking at exhibit , the weapon, and exhibit , the blanket, do you think it is possible that the bulge you described before, which you marked "c," might have been caused by some component part of , the rifle? mr. stombaugh. yes. at the time i found the hump in the blanket which i believed you have marked point c. mr. eisenberg. that is point c on the replica piece of paper you have folded up, marked exhibit ? mr. stombaugh. i checked the telescopic sight on exhibit , and noted that the approximate length and general shape of the scope---- mr. dulles. exhibit being the blanket? mr. eisenberg. being the rifle. mr. stombaugh. were approximately the same so far as length and shape went, and at the time i thought to myself it is quite possible the hump in the blanket could have been made by that telescopic sight. mr. eisenberg. did you attempt to match up the rifle into the blanket to see if that could be true? mr. stombaugh. no; i didn't want to handle the rifle any more than possible. i took a ruler and measured the scope and then compared the measurement with the hump in the blanket and it was approximately the same. mr. eisenberg. what about the relationship, the spatial relationship of the scope to the end of the gun, as compared with the spatial relationship of the hump in the blanket to the end of the blanket? were those matching? mr. stombaugh. from the way the blanket was folded at the time, and from measuring this, and not using the gun itself and putting it in contact with the blanket, just from measurements, i determined it is possible that the scope could have made the hump. in other words, the gun could have fitted in there. but i couldn't be absolutely certain on any of this. this is just from measurements. mr. eisenberg. and visual comparison? mr. stombaugh. and visual comparison; yes. mr. eisenberg. is there any further information you would like to give us concerning your examinations of the paper bag, the rifle, the blanket, or the shirt which we have discussed this morning? mr. stombaugh. just the fibers i removed. mr. dulles. are you going to go into the relationship of the fibers that were found in the jagged edge? mr. eisenberg. yes. mr. stombaugh, did you attempt to determine the origin of the fibers which were caught in the butt plate of the rifle? mr. stombaugh. yes, sir; i did. i tried to match these fibers with the fibers in the blanket, and found that they had not originated from the blanket, because the cotton fibers were of entirely different colors. so i happened to think of the shirt and i made a known sample of the shirt fibers. mr. eisenberg. what does that mean? mr. stombaugh. i removed fibers from the shirt to determine the composition of it and also the colors. i found that the shirt was composed of dark-blue, grayish-black, and orangish-yellow cotton fibers, and that these were the same shades of fibers i had found on the butt plate of the gun. mr. dulles. did you find all three shades? mr. stombaugh. all three shades; yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. all three shades were found on the fragments that were found in the butt of the gun? mr. stombaugh. yes. mr. eisenberg. have you made photographs showing these, color photographs showing these? mr. stombaugh. yes, sir. color photographs are very difficult to make microscopically because the color isn't always identical to what you see in the microscope. so these colors are slightly off. mr. eisenberg. you have shown a chart captioned "microphotograph showing match between orange-yellow cotton fibers from butt plate of assassination rifle and orange-yellow cotton fibers from oswald's shirt." did you take this photograph? mr. stombaugh. no; it was taken under my supervision. mr. eisenberg. it was taken under your supervision. mr. chairman, may i submit this as . mr. dulles. it will be admitted, . (the item referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and was received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. what is the magnification? mr. stombaugh. i believe this was also. i am not certain of this, because the shot itself has also been enlarged. mr. eisenberg. now you were discussing the reproduction of the color in the photomicrograph? mr. stombaugh. yes, sir. these are the orangish-yellow fibers. the color is not exactly the same as what one would see under the microscope. however, you can see that the fibers on both sides, namely, the fiber from the rifle here, and this---- mr. dulles. on the right-hand side---- mr. stombaugh. on the right-hand side. mr. dulles. of exhibit ? mr. stombaugh. and the fibers from the shirt, which are on the left-hand side of exhibit , do match. the colors are the same and also, we find the same twist in the fiber. mr. eisenberg. now, was the orange-yellow cotton fiber--were the orange-yellow cotton fibers in the shirt of a uniform shade? mr. stombaugh. yes; they were all of a uniform shade. it was what we would call a uniform dye job. mr. eisenberg. what about the twist? mr. stombaugh. the twist was about normal. these, you can see here. mr. eisenberg. you are pointing to the right-hand side and left-hand side of ? mr. stombaugh. you can see the twist to these fibers. mr. eisenberg. did they have a uniform twist? mr. stombaugh. uniform. mr. eisenberg. so that the match was identical as to twist and shade, and the fibers in the shirt were uniform in themselves as to these two characteristics, is that correct? mr. stombaugh. yes; that is correct. mr. eisenberg. did you take a photograph of the gray-black cotton fibers? mr. stombaugh. these are the gray-black cotton fibers and the color didn't come out well on these in this instance because of time and color process limitations. mr. eisenberg. just a second. you have a chart here--a photomicrograph--captioned "microphotograph showing match between gray-black cotton fibers from butt plate of assassination rifle, etc. and gray-black cotton fibers from oswald's shirt." did you take these photographs or were they taken under your supervision? mr. stombaugh. under my supervision. mr. eisenberg. may i have this admitted as ? mr. dulles. , it will be admitted. (the item referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. stombaugh. the same would apply to exhibit as to , with the exception of the color. the color on these is much darker and we tried up to last night to duplicate the exact color and this is the best i could come up with under the time and color process limitations. it took us about hours to make a photograph such as this. mr. eisenberg. there is an apparent match of colors in the photograph---- mr. stombaugh. but there is one---- mr. eisenberg. i say, there is an apparent match in photographs, in color, or is that just my eyes deceiving me? mr. stombaugh. this one appears to be slightly lighter than this shade. mr. eisenberg. i see. mr. stombaugh. but actually they are both a gray black, almost black in color. mr. eisenberg. but under the microscope they were identical, and a different shade than what we see in exhibit ? mr. stombaugh. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. in all these cases did you make your determination of color and match under the microscope, or by use of the photographs? mr. stombaugh. under the microscope. mr. eisenberg. and these are illustrative and prepared for the commission's use? mr. stombaugh. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. now, you have a chart of photomicrograph captioned "match between dark blue cotton fibers from butt plate of assassination rifle, etc." did you prepare these photographs or were they prepared under your supervision? mr. stombaugh. under my supervision. mr. eisenberg. may i have these received as exhibit ? mr. dulles. . (the item referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and was received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. what is the magnification of and , by the way? mr. stombaugh. all of these were made at approximately diameters. mr. eisenberg. did you find a color match here? mr. stombaugh. yes; the color match of the dark blue cotton fibers shows rather well in this photograph, exhibit . mr. eisenberg. now there is also a violet-colored fiber running through the right-hand side of . mr. stombaugh. yes, sir; i asked the photographer about this when he developed this and i said, "why did we get this, this is not in the slide at all," and he said that is one of the orange fibers. they use different techniques in bringing out the blue and the yellow-orange in a photomicrograph. mr. dulles. the shades are the fiber of the blanket? mr. stombaugh. no; this shade in the photograph is different from what that fiber actually is. it is in the development process. i am not too familiar with color photography. there is an art to it. however, i do know that there are times and technical limitations on the accuracy of color reproductions. mr. eisenberg. mr. stombaugh, were the shades in--were the shades of the dark blue cotton fibers uniform throughout the shirt which is pictured in commission exhibit ? mr. stombaugh. no sir; the dark blue fibers had some lighter shades and some slightly darker shades. mr. eisenberg. about how many different shades? mr. stombaugh. there were only about three in this. mr. eisenberg. do you recall how many dark blue fibers you got from the butt plate? mr. stombaugh. i believe a total of six or seven fibers from the butt plate and three of them are blue fibers and all matched. mr. eisenberg. do you recall whether they were one or more shades? mr. stombaugh. two shades. mr. eisenberg. so that two of the fibers were two different shades of blue? mr. stombaugh. yes. mr. eisenberg. and they matched two different shades of blue in the shirt out of a total of three different shades of blue? mr. stombaugh. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. and you testified before there were about to ranges of shade of green cotton. what about the ranges in shades of blue cotton? mr. stombaugh. the same would apply to blue cotton. mr. eisenberg. and the ranges in shades of orange yellow cotton? mr. stombaugh. the orange-yellow cotton i have here---- mr. eisenberg. . mr. stombaugh. this is a shade of a yellow cotton fiber, it appears orange yellow under a microscope. sometimes you get greenish yellow. these will vary, the orange-yellow shade itself might be only two variations in orange yellow, but in a greenish yellow it might be to . mr. eisenberg. there was a gray-black cotton fiber in the shirt. were they uniform between themselves as to color? mr. stombaugh. yes; these were uniform. mr. eisenberg. how many shades of gray, in the gray-black area, can you distinguish? mr. stombaugh. the gray-black in itself would be similar to the orange-yellow and would be possibly two or three. mr. eisenberg. and in the black taken as a broader---- mr. stombaugh. black taken in itself would go from, all the way from, very grayish-light gray all the way down to dense black. mr. eisenberg. how many different shades can you distinguish? mr. stombaugh. black is different. there are only about or shades, i would say, in black. mr. eisenberg. so you identified the fibers you found on the butt plate as matching the fibers you found in the shirt, not only as to color but as to shades within those colors, out of a range going from in the gray-black or black area to to in the yellow and blue areas? mr. stombaugh. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. and degrees of twist were all the same? mr. stombaugh. they were the same. mr. eisenberg. any other characteristics? mr. stombaugh. just type of fibers, they were all cotton fibers. mr. eisenberg. on the basis of these examinations, did you draw a conclusion as to the probability of the cotton fibers found in the butt plate having come from the shirt pictured in exhibit ? mr. stombaugh. yes, sir; it was my opinion that these fibers could easily have come from the shirt. mr. eisenberg. could you go into that in a little more detail, mr. stombaugh? mr. stombaugh. yes. mainly because the fibers or the shirt is composed of point one, cotton, and point two, three basic colors. i found all three colors together on the gun. now if the shirt had been composed of or different colors and types of fibers and i only had found of them, then i would feel that i had not found enough, but i found fibers on the gun which i could match with the fibers composing this shirt, so i feel the fibers could easily have come from the shirt. mr. eisenberg. mr. stombaugh, i asked you a hypothetical question before concerning whether the rifle could have been a mechanism for transferring fibers from the blanket into the paper bag, and as i recall you said it could have. now, is it inconsistent with that answer that no fibers were found on the gun which matched the fibers in the blanket? mr. stombaugh. no; because the gun was dusted for fingerprints and any fibers that were loosely adhering to it could have been dusted off. the only reason, i feel, that these fibers remained on the butt plate is because they were pulled from the fabric by the jagged edge and adhered to the gun and then the fingerprint examiner with his brush, i feel, when brushing and dusting this butt plate, stroked them down into that crevice where they couldn't be knocked off. in time these fibers would have undoubtedly become dislodged and fallen off the gun. mr. eisenberg. mr. stombaugh, is there anything you would like to add to your testimony? mr. stombaugh. no, sir; i can think of nothing else. mr. dulles. and you found no other pieces of fabric or other foreign material on the gun? mr. stombaugh. nothing that i could associate with either the blanket or the shirt. i found---- mr. dulles. or the paper bag? mr. stombaugh. or the paper bag; no, sir. mr. eisenberg. just one further question. you said something like, "it was possible the fibers could have come from the shirt." could you estimate the degree of probability that the fibers came from the shirt, the fibers in the butt plate? mr. stombaugh. well, this is difficult because we don't know how many different shirts were made out of this same type of fabric, or for that matter how many identical shirts are in existence. mr. eisenberg. mr. stombaugh, i gather that, and correct me if i am wrong, that in your area as opposed to the fingerprint area, you prefer to present the facts rather than draw conclusions as to probabilities, is that correct? mr. stombaugh. that is correct. i have been asked this question many times. there are some experts who will say well, the chances are in , , this, that, and the other, and everyone who had said that and been brought to our attention we have been able to prove them wrong, insofar as application to our fiber problems is concerned. mr. eisenberg. you mean prove them wrong in terms of their mathematics? mr. stombaugh. there is just no way at this time to be able to positively state that a particular small group of fibers came from a particular source, because there just aren't enough microscopic characteristics present in these fibers. we cannot say, "yes, these fibers came from this shirt to the exclusion of all other shirts." mr. eisenberg. we appreciate your conservatism, but the commission, of course, has to make an estimate, and what i am trying to find out is whether your conservatism, whether your conclusions, reflect the inability to draw mathematical determinations or conclusions, or reflect your own doubts? mr. stombaugh. no. mr. eisenberg. can you tell us which that is? mr. stombaugh. there is no doubt in my mind that these fibers could have come from this shirt. there is no way, however, to eliminate the possibility of the fibers having come from another identical shirt. mr. eisenberg. now, in your mind what do you feel about the origin of the fibers you found in the bag? mr. stombaugh. i didn't find enough fibers in the bag to form an opinion on those. now if i would have found, say or fibers and all or matched the fibers from the blanket, then i could say, "yes, i feel that these very easily could have come from the blanket." but i didn't. i only found two of the many types. mr. eisenberg. okay. i have no further questions. mr. dulles. do you have any further questions? mr. murray. no; i have no further questions. mr. dulles. i have no further questions. thank you, mr. stombaugh, we appreciate your coming. testimony of james c. cadigan mr. dulles. would you mind standing and raising your right hand? do you swear the testimony you give before the commission is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. cadigan. yes, sir. mr. dulles. thank you. mr. eisenberg. mr. cadigan, can you state your full name and position? mr. cadigan. james c. cadigan, special agent of the fbi, assigned as an examiner of questioned documents in the laboratory here in washington. mr. eisenberg. what is your education, mr. cadigan? mr. cadigan. i have a master of science degree from boston college in newton, mass. upon being appointed in the fbi, i was given on-the-job training, which consisted of working with various examiners, conducting experiments, reading books, attending lectures, and so forth. mr. eisenberg. mr. cadigan, how long have you been in the questioned document field? mr. cadigan. twenty-three and a half years. mr. eisenberg. and during that time have you examined papers to determine their possible origin? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. can you estimate the number of such examinations you have conducted? mr. cadigan. no; not with any degree of accuracy, except many, many specimens, many, many comparisons. mr. eisenberg. have you testified on that subject in court? mr. cadigan. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. many times? mr. cadigan. i won't say many, no; because most of the testimony i have given in court relates to other phases of the work. strictly on paper, i would say not more than two or three times. mr. eisenberg. but you have made more than two or three examinations of paper? mr. cadigan. oh, yes; far more. mr. dulles. running into the hundreds and thousands? mr. cadigan. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, may i have this witness admitted as an expert witness? mr. dulles. he shall be admitted as an expert on this subject. mr. eisenberg. mr. cadigan, i hand you an object made of paper, commission exhibit , also known as commission exhibit , and ask you if you are familiar with this object? mr. cadigan. yes; i am. mr. eisenberg. and did you examine this object, this paper bag, to determine its origin, possible origin? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. can you tell us how you conducted that examination? mr. cadigan. yes. i first saw this paper bag on november , , in the fbi laboratory, along with the sample of paper and tape from the texas school book depository obtained november , , which is fbi exhibit d- . mr. eisenberg. is that the sample that you are referring to, that you are holding in your hand? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. and that is marked, as you said, "paper sample from first floor texas school book depository" and has certain other markings including the words "shipping department"? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. may i have this admitted, mr. chairman? mr. dulles. that may be admitted. mr. eisenberg. that will be no. . mr. dulles. may be admitted. (commission exhibit no. was marked, and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. did you find out from precisely what portion of the texas school book depository building this was obtained, mr. cadigan? mr. cadigan. yes; this comes from the first floor, main floor of the texas school book depository, referred to as the shipping room, the whole floor. mr. eisenberg. now, did you--who supplied you with this sample, this exhibit ? mr. cadigan. this exhibit was brought to the laboratory by special agent drain of our dallas office, who brought all of this evidence in for examination. mr. eisenberg. did you attempt to determine whether exhibit had the same origin as the paper in exhibit , or might have had the same origin? mr. cadigan. yes; i examined the two papers--do you wish me to state my opinion? mr. eisenberg. yes; please. mr. cadigan. well, initially, i was requested to compare the two papers to see if they could have originated from the same source. i first measured the paper and the tape samples. then i looked at them visually by natural light, then incident light and transmitted light. mr. eisenberg. what do you mean by transmitted light? mr. cadigan. well, light coming right on through the paper. mr. eisenberg. then---- mr. dulles. natural light? mr. cadigan. yes; natural light. mr. dulles. as distinct from electric light? mr. cadigan. both. in the room i am in you can go over to the window for natural light and use ceiling light for artificial light which has a little different property than the outside light. mr. dulles. yes. mr. cadigan. i looked at the papers under various lighting conditions---- mr. eisenberg. excuse me a minute, mr. cadigan, by "transmitted light" you mean the light transmitted when you hold the object between the light source and your own eyes? mr. cadigan. yes; then i put it under the microscope, and again looked at it from the standpoint of the surface, paper structure, the color, any imperfections. i further noted that on both of the tapes---- mr. eisenberg. is the paper bag. mr. cadigan. on and on the tape on there were a series of marks right down about the center of the tape. mr. eisenberg. can you see those visually with the unaided eye, or only under a microscope? mr. cadigan. i can see them visually. the microscope makes it look clearer. mr. dulles. what are you pointing to now? mr. eisenberg. this line here. mr. dulles. where is this? mr. cadigan. these are a series of lines running right here about a half-inch high, they are very closely spaced. mr. dulles. oh, yes; these are perpendicular lines. mr. cadigan. yes, sir. mr. dulles. would you like to see these, mr. murray? mr. murray. yes; thank you. mr. dulles. they are quite clear, about a tenth of an inch apart or less than that. mr. cadigan. well, actually they are - / spaces per inch, which would be about lines per inch. mr. murray. pockmarks? mr. cadigan. a series of little short marks right close together. mr. murray. oh, yes. mr. dulles. and they run along about how far on this particular exhibit? mr. cadigan. they run the whole length of the tape. mr. murray. a comb design. mr. eisenberg. comb in the sense that it is a series of---- mr. murray. comb or rake. mr. eisenberg. could you circle that on , and mark the portion "a"? can you still make out the lines on exhibit ? mr. cadigan. oh, yes. mr. eisenberg. could you circle a portion of the lines on and mark it--i am sorry, that is . mr. cadigan. i have marked it. mr. eisenberg. mr. dulles, would you care to look at it? mr. dulles. and--oh, yes--and they go over a good deal further than your circle? mr. cadigan. yes, sir. mr. dulles. they run right across. mr. cadigan. i might explain that these are made by a wheel in the paper-tape dispenser. [referring to an object in the room.] it is not quite this size, but it is similar to this and it has horizontal markings running all around the wheel. as you pull the operating handle that pulls the paper tape from the roll through the machine and over the wetting brush, the wheel, in the process leaves these markings on the tape. mr. eisenberg. excuse me, mr. cadigan, would this be in the type of tape dispenser which is operated not merely by a handle--by a handpull--to the tape from the dispenser, but is operated--that is operated by a lever? mr. cadigan. yes; a lever, a handle. mr. eisenberg. and a given quantity of tape is dispensed, which you can cut off or not as you choose--if you want to, you can pull some more tape and cut it off, is that correct? mr. cadigan. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. and this wheel, as i understand it, when you pull the lever this wheel forces the paper out? mr. cadigan. it turns, and it is really pulling the paper from the roll and pushing it out from the slot. mr. eisenberg. that has a slight knurl which grasps the paper? mr. cadigan. it has a slight ridge all around it which is the cause of these marks on the paper tape. mr. eisenberg. okay. mr. dulles. is that a defect in the mark or a peculiar---- mr. cadigan. oh, no; it is designed that way. those little, you might say, in effect, teeth, go into the paper and pull it through smoothly. mr. eisenberg. if i went into woolworths and bought a roll of gummed tape, would it have those marks on it? mr. cadigan. no. mr. eisenberg. because it only gets the marks when you put it in the dispensing machine that you have in commercial establishments? mr. cadigan. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. would it be common to have this type of dispensing machine in a home, by the way? mr. cadigan. i doubt very much that you would find it in a home. mr. eisenberg. now, within a commercial establishment, are there more than one type of dispensing machines? mr. cadigan. oh, yes. mr. eisenberg. are there types that won't produce these lines at all? mr. cadigan. yes. i might point out, too, that the number of lines per inch will vary depending on the diameter of that wheel. in this particular instance i found that there were - / spaces, which would be lines per inch, on both. mr. eisenberg. i believe that is , the bag you are handling, and , the sample? mr. cadigan. yes; the markings on the manila tape in both and were the same. now, at that time i also had---- mr. dulles. could we get just before you continue there, would you identify what is and is? mr. eisenberg. is an apparently homemade paper bag which was found in the southeast corner of the sixth floor of the tsbd following the assassination, and which, for the record, is a bag which may have been used to carry this rifle, , which was used to commit the assassination. is a sample of paper and tape--and parenthetically, tape was used in the construction of -- is a sample of paper and tape obtained from the texas school book depository on november , , that is, the very day of the assassination. mr. dulles. obtained by whom, by the fbi? mr. cadigan. this was obtained by the dallas police. mr. eisenberg. and forwarded to you by the dallas---- mr. cadigan. by the dallas police through our dallas office. mr. dulles. it was obtained after the assassination on that date? mr. cadigan. yes, sir; the night of november . at the same time, on november , we had an agent come in from chicago with samples of paper from klein's, with the possibility, it was thought, that the paper sack---- mr. dulles. identify klein's just for the record. mr. cadigan. klein's sporting goods store in chicago, from which the italian rifle was bought. mr. eisenberg. that is exhibit ? mr. cadigan. exhibit . the agent brought in these paper samples from klein's for comparison purposes, and the paper tape, this manila gummed tape, had these knurl markings measuring per inch. mr. eisenberg. that is the gummed tape you obtained from klein's? mr. cadigan. yes. it was not identical with this, but merely, you might say, illustrate that the markings will differ depending on the wheel, and if your wheel has lines per inch and your other sample is or lines per inch, you know they didn't come from the same tape dispenser. mr. eisenberg. mr. cadigan, do these wheels differ as to their diameter across the bearing surface, the length across the rolling knurled surface? mr. cadigan. i imagine there would be a difference. i have made no precise measurement but i imagine they vary within tolerances of a quarter- or half-inch in width. mr. eisenberg. would the length of the lines produced on be the same--the paper bag--the same as the length of the lines produced on ? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. dulles. at what period in connection with the manufacture of the paper are those lines put on or---- mr. cadigan. these are put on after the paper is complete. mr. dulles. after paper is completely manufactured? mr. cadigan. yes, sir; that is right. mr. dulles. and put on by the dispensing machine? mr. cadigan. no; the individual buys gummed tape in rolls. mr. dulles. yes. mr. cadigan. three-inch rolls or inch-and-a-half rolls. he then puts it on a tape-dispensing machine. mr. dulles. in his particular organization? mr. cadigan. yes; or his factory or shipping department or wrapping room. mr. dulles. i understand. mr. cadigan. once it is in that machine then that wheel will mark the tape going through the dispenser just before it wets it and you paste it down. mr. dulles. just before, generally just before it is used, then these markings are put on by the dispensing machine. mr. cadigan. yes, sir. after examining the papers, comparing them visually and under the microscope, i examined them under ultraviolet light. this is merely one additional step. here again i found that both of them fluoresced the same way. mr. eisenberg. could you explain the meaning of that? mr. cadigan. yes. paper, along with many substances, has the property of absorbing or reflecting ultraviolet light rays differently. you can take two samples of paper and put them under an ultraviolet light, and they may appear to be the same or they may be markedly different. mr. eisenberg. you mean even if they look the same under visual light? mr. cadigan. visually they may look the same and yet under ultraviolet light there may be very dramatic differences. mr. eisenberg. what causes those differences? mr. cadigan. well, the chemicals that are in the paper itself; i think probably a very common example are the markings on shirts, so-called invisible dyes which, visually, you do not see, but you put them under ultraviolet light and the chemical is such that it glows brilliantly. so, it is basically a chemical or chemicals in there, in this case, in the paper being examined under the ultraviolet, which gives a certain visual appearance, which you can say, it is the same or it is different. in all of the observations and physical tests, that i made, i found that for exhibit , the bag, and the paper sample, commission exhibit , the results were the same. mr. eisenberg. can you just review those? that was the ultraviolet light---- mr. cadigan. well, briefly, it would be the thickness of both the paper and the tape, the color under various lighting conditions of both the paper and the tape, the width of the tape, the knurled markings on the surface of the tape, the texture of the fiber, the felting pattern. i hadn't mentioned this before, but if you hold a piece of paper up to the light, you see light and dark areas caused by the way the fibers felt right at the beginning stages of paper manufacture. there are light and dark areas, and these are called the felting pattern. this is something that will vary depending on how the paper is made, the thickness of the paper, the way that the fibers moved on the papermaking machine, and here again i found that they were the same for both the known sample, commission exhibit , and the paper bag, commission exhibit . mr. eisenberg. in all these cases, did you make the examination both of the tape and the paper in each of the bag and the sample? mr. cadigan. oh, yes. mr. eisenberg. and they were all identical? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. you mentioned before the thickness. how did you measure the thickness of the tape and paper? mr. cadigan. with a micrometer. mr. eisenberg. how sensitive is it? mr. cadigan. it reads to four places. mr. eisenberg. how sensitive? mr. cadigan. four decimal places. mr. eisenberg. is that one-hundredths? mr. cadigan. that would be one ten-thousandths. mr. eisenberg. and they were identical in that measurement? mr. cadigan. yes; i measured both the paper sack, exhibit , and the known paper sample, exhibit , at . inch, that is fifty-seven ten-thousandths. mr. eisenberg. go ahead, mr. cadigan. mr. cadigan. do you want me to discuss this replica sack yet? mr. eisenberg. you mentioned a replica bag? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. could you explain what that is? mr. cadigan. yes; this is commission exhibit . it is a paper sack similar to commission exhibit . it was made at the texas school book depository on december , , by special agents of the fbi in dallas to show to prospective witnesses, because commission's exhibit was dark and stained from the latent fingerprint treatment and they thought that this would--it wouldn't be fair to the witness to ask "did you see a bag like that?" so they went to the texas school book depository and constructed from paper and tape a similar bag. mr. eisenberg. this was made december ? mr. cadigan. december , of . mr. eisenberg. or some or days after the assassination? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. was the paper obtained from the same source? mr. cadigan. yes; from the same room. mr. eisenberg. the same room. did you examine this paper to see how it compared--that is, the paper in the replica bag, which has already been admitted as commission exhibit --to see how it compared with the paper in the bag found on the sixth floor of the tsbd, which is commission's exhibit ? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. what was your conclusion? mr. cadigan. that they were different in color, visual color, felting--that is, the pattern that you see through transmitted light, and they were different under ultraviolet light. mr. eisenberg. so that these two papers, which were obtained within or days from the same source, could be distinguished by you? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. have you brought an ultraviolet light source with you? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. could you show the commission the difference between the three papers? (discussion off the record.) mr. eisenberg. now, we have been unable to find a plug for this ultraviolet machine, so we will temporarily or perhaps permanently bypass this examination. but did you find that two of the papers look the same under the ultraviolet and a third looked different when you examined it under ultraviolet? mr. cadigan. yes; that is correct. mr. eisenberg. which two were the identical and which was the different one? mr. cadigan. well--commission exhibit and commission exhibit --i observed them to have the same appearance under ultraviolet light, and that appearance was different from commission exhibit . mr. dulles. can you identify these three exhibits, because otherwise i think it will be very difficult to get into the record. mr. eisenberg. yes, sir; being the bag found on the sixth floor of the tsbd, being the sample obtained that day from the shipping room in the texas school depository, and being a replica made some ten days later out of paper obtained some days later. did that complete your examination of the gross or physical characteristics, as opposed to the microscopic characteristics? mr. cadigan. yes; that in essence was the extent of the examination i made at that time. mr. eisenberg. did you go on to examine for microscopic characteristics? mr. cadigan. yes; i believe i mentioned that at the time i had examined these papers under the microscope. mr. eisenberg. you mentioned that at the time? mr. cadigan. yes; earlier this morning. mr. eisenberg. yes. could you tell us what the results were of your examination under the microscope? mr. cadigan. again, i found that the paper sack found on the sixth floor, commission exhibit , and the sample secured - , commission exhibit , had the same observable characteristics both under the microscope and all the visual tests that i could conduct. mr. eisenberg. could you go into detail as to what you did see under the microscope? mr. cadigan. well, i think perhaps this photograph, i have an enlarged photograph, one side being the---- mr. dulles. which side is that? mr. eisenberg. one side marked k- , and the other q- ? mr. cadigan. yes; k- corresponds to the known paper sample . mr. eisenberg. obtained from the tsbd? mr. dulles. what date? mr. cadigan. november . mr. dulles. on the day of the assassination? mr. cadigan. yes. and the q- marking is the same as the paper bag found on the sixth floor, commission exhibit . mr. eisenberg. did you take this photograph or was it taken under your supervision? mr. cadigan. i had it made. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, may i have it in evidence? mr. dulles. admitted. mr. cadigan. i would like to point out this is only one phase of the examination and this is a black-and-white photograph. in your examination under the microscope you are looking at the surface and memorizing everything about that surface your mind can retain by putting the two pieces of paper together and studying them back and forth. i don't wish to imply that that photograph represents all i can see in a microscope, because it doesn't. mr. eisenberg. we understand that. may i have this, mr. reporter, marked as . (commission exhibit no. was marked, and received in evidence.) mr. dulles. that has already been admitted. mr. eisenberg. yes. now, what is the magnification in this exhibit ? mr. cadigan. it is about times enlarged. mr. eisenberg. and had you treated the paper chemically before you made this photograph? mr. cadigan. no. mr. eisenberg. can you tell us a little bit about that photograph and what it shows? mr. cadigan. well, actually all this shows is an enlarged area, a very small area, i might point out. it merely shows the surface structure, shows some of the fibers, and shows an imperfection. the dark line down the center of the photograph is actually a fold in both papers, merely to bring them close together so that they can be seen together. but it gives you some idea of the surface texture, how the fibers lie in there. in this instance you have two little imperfections in these fiber bundles here, you can't see the brown-colored fibers that are actually present. mr. dulles. that imperfection, however, would not be repeated, would it? mr. cadigan. oh, no; it is purely accidental. mr. dulles. they are accidental. mr. cadigan. they are bundles of fibers in the paper itself. mr. eisenberg. in your opinion were the two samples identical in the characteristics shown in this photomicrograph? mr. cadigan. yes; they have the same appearance. mr. eisenberg. did you also break down the papers to test them, to determine the morphology of the fiber? mr. cadigan. yes. subsequently, i ran a fiber analysis of the paper, the known paper sample from the texas school book depository, commission exhibit , and the paper bag, commission exhibit , and on the same day i had our spectrographic section run a spectrographic test on these same papers. mr. dulles. do i understand correctly, though, you have testified that a sample taken days later was different--or approximately days later? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. approximately days. mr. cadigan. yes; this was a sample taken december . i could tell that it was different from this sample, , taken on the day of the assassination, and different from the bag, exhibit . mr. dulles. do you happen to know whether another roll was put in the machine between the d and the st of december? mr. cadigan. may we go off the record? (discussion off the record.) mr. eisenberg. on the record. do you know whether the dallas office of the fbi has attempted to make a determination as to whether the replica paper bag, the paper in the replica paper bag, prepared on december , commission no. , was, or may have been, or wasn't taken from the same roll as the replica piece of paper or the sample piece of paper, exhibit , which was obtained from the depository november ? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. and can you tell us what you understand the results of their investigation to have been? mr. cadigan. yes; they were unable to determine whether the paper from the replica sack, exhibit , came from the same roll or a different roll as the known sample obtained november . commission exhibit . i understand that in the fall, the depository is busy, and could very well have changed rolls, but no records are kept along that line. mr. dulles. changed rolls in that time, -day period? mr. cadigan. yes, sir. actually there were working days in that period. mr. dulles. yes. but am i not correct that there probably or maybe certainly, i would like to have your view on that, was no change in the roll between the day before the assassination and the night of the assassination, that is between paper bag, exhibit no. , and the specimen that was taken on the night of the day of the assassination? mr. cadigan. i can't tell you that, sir. i have no way of knowing, because these papers are similar in all observable physical characteristics, and they are different from a sample obtained on december . i would suspect that this were true. but i can't---- mr. dulles. i realize that. mr. cadigan. i cannot make a positive statement on that. mr. eisenberg. have you any information as to whether the paper during the period between november and december used in the tsbd--whether it was the same or different rolls--would have come from the same ultimate manufacturer? mr. cadigan. it is my understanding that they received a shipment of rolls of paper that were shipped march , , from the st. regis paper mill in jacksonville. fla., and which lasted them until january of . this would mean on an average, in a -month period, a little more than six rolls a month. mr. eisenberg. the inference would therefore be that if the--although the papers in the replica bag obtained on december and the paper in the sample obtained on november are distinguishable by you, they came from the same manufacturer, and--is that correct? mr. cadigan. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. and, therefore, that the state of your science is such that you can distinguish even rolls of paper made by the same manufacturer and assumedly made within a reasonably close time, is that correct also? mr. cadigan. i don't know what period of time is involved here. but i can distinguish at least in this case between paper from the same shipment from the same mill. mr. eisenberg. could you proceed now to discuss the morphology of the fiber as you examined it under a microscope? mr. cadigan. well, i might state briefly what a fiber analysis is. we put samples of paper back into their, you might say, original state, in the form of fiber suspension. you cook samples of paper for a couple of minutes in weak sodium hydroxide solution. then you wash it, add water and shake it vigorously, and you get a suspension of fibers in the water. samples of those fibers are put on glass slides and are stained by various reagents. then you examine them under a high-power comparison microscope or a binocular microscope under approximately times magnification. in this particular case i used two different stains. first a malachite green stain. this merely determines if there are any unbleached fibers, or if they are all bleached. i found that on both commission exhibit , the paper sample obtained on november , and the paper sack, commission exhibit , that they are almost percent unbleached fibers. then i stained other samples, with a stain known as herzberg stain. it is an iodine-iodide stain, which will distinguish between rag fibers, chemical wood fibers, and ground wood fibers by different coloring. the chemical wood is stained blue, rag fibers are stained red, ground wood stained yellow. i made and studied specimens or slides of fibers from commission exhibit , the known sample, and from commission exhibit , the paper sack, to see if the fiber composition is similar. what that means is, is this chemical wood, is it coniferous or deciduous, are there any rag fibers in there or are there any ground wood fibers in there, and i found here the fiber composition was similar and essentially it is a coniferous woodlike pine. there were a few stray rag fibers, which i think were probably accidental, and a few stray ground wood fragments in there. mr. dulles. let me get clearly what is similar, that is the paper bag, exhibit---- mr. cadigan. ; the paper comprising that sack and the paper comprising the known sample obtained november , exhibit . mr. dulles. right. mr. cadigan. the papers i also found were similar in fiber composition, therefore, in addition to the visual characteristics, microscopic and uv characteristics. mr. eisenberg. "uv" being ultraviolet? mr. cadigan. yes, sir. then i had a spectrographic examination made of the paper from the sack, , and the known sample secured november , commission exhibit . spectrographic tests involve, of course, burning the substance and capturing the light on a photographic plate to determine what metallic ions are present. this was done by our spectrographic section, and again the paper of commission exhibit , the paper sample, secured november , was found to be similar spectrographically to the paper of the sack, commission exhibit . now, these were additional tests, the original examinations, under visual and ultraviolet light were made by me on november , . fiber analysis and the spectrographic examination were conducted on march , . mr. eisenberg. have you now reviewed all the points in which you compared the paper sack obtained from the tsbd, exhibit , and the known sample obtained on november , exhibit ? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. did you find any points of nonidentity? mr. cadigan. no; i found none. mr. eisenberg. they were identical on every point on which you measured them? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. mr. cadigan, did you notice when you looked at the bag whether there were--that is the bag found on the sixth floor, exhibit --whether it had any bulges or unusual creases? mr. cadigan. i was also requested at that time to examine the bag to determine if there were any significant markings or scratches or abrasions or anything by which it could be associated with the rifle, commission exhibit , that is, could i find any markings that i could tie to that rifle. mr. eisenberg. yes? mr. cadigan. and i couldn't find any such markings. mr. eisenberg. now, was there an absence of markings which would be inconsistent with the rifle having been carried in the bag? mr. cadigan. no; i don't see--actually, i don't know the condition of the rifle. if it were in fact contained in this bag, it could have been wrapped in cloth or just the metal parts wrapped in a thick layer of cloth, or if the gun was in the bag, perhaps it wasn't moved too much. i did observe some scratch marks and abrasions but was unable to associate them with this gun. the scratch marks in the paper could come from any place. they could have come from many places. there were no marks on this bag that i could say were caused by that rifle or any other rifle or any other given instrument. mr. eisenberg. was there any absence of markings or absence of bulges or absence of creases which would cause you to say that the rifle was not carried in the paper bag? mr. cadigan. no. mr. eisenberg. that is whether it had been wrapped or not wrapped? mr. cadigan. that is something i can't say. mr. dulles. would the scratches indicate there was a hard object inside the bag, as distinct from a soft object that would make no abrasions or scratches? mr. cadigan. well, if you were to characterize it that way, yes. i mean there were a few scratches here. what caused them, i can't say. a hard object; yes. whether that hard object was part of a gun---- mr. dulles. i understand. mr. cadigan. and so forth---- mr. eisenberg. i am not sure you understood a question i asked one or two questions ago. i just want to make clear here if the gun was not wrapped in a cloth--let's assume hypothetically that the gun was not wrapped in a cloth and was, also hypothetically, inserted into this paper bag. is there any absence of marks which would lead you to believe that this hypothesis i just made couldn't be--that is, that it couldn't be inserted, without a covering, into the paper bag without leaving more markings than were present? mr. cadigan. no. the absence of markings to me wouldn't mean much. i was looking for markings i could associate. the absence of marks, the significance of them, i don't know. mr. eisenberg. now, getting back to the paper bag, , and the tape thereon, just for a second, and the tape found on the, obtained from the, tsbd on november , exhibit , were the widths of the tapes the same? mr. cadigan. similar. they were not exactly the same; no. mr. eisenberg. can you explain that? mr. cadigan. yes; the width of the tape on the paper sack, exhibit , i measured at inches, and the width of the manila tape on exhibit obtained the night of november , i measured as . . there is twenty-five one-thousandths of an inch difference. mr. eisenberg. would that lead you to believe that they couldn't have come from the same roll? mr. cadigan. no; certainly not. mr. eisenberg. not enough of a variation to lead to that conclusion? mr. cadigan. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. how wide do these rolls come in your experience, in what widths do they come? mr. cadigan. normally they are supplied in, i believe, -, - / -, -, - / -, and -inch widths. mr. eisenberg. so this was basically of a -inch width variety out of several possible alternatives? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. is there any other information you would like to give us or any other testimony you would like to give us on the subject of the origin of the paper in the bag? mr. cadigan. well, possibly the comparisons made of paper samples from jaggars chiles-stovall and from the william b. riley co. mr. eisenberg. these are, you have mentioned two companies at which oswald was employed at one time? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. you obtained paper from these companies, did you? mr. cadigan. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. and you matched them to see if they matched--you tested them to see if they matched the paper in the bag , is that correct? mr. cadigan. yes; that is correct. mr. eisenberg. and your conclusion was what? mr. cadigan. that they were different. mr. eisenberg. yes. anything else? mr. cadigan. that is about it. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman---- mr. dulles. mr. murray, do you have any questions? mr. murray. i don't believe i have, mr. commissioner, but i would like to mention this off the record, if i may. (discussion off the record.) mr. eisenberg. we have now the ultraviolet machine set up. could you just show us the difference in fluorescence? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. can you explain what you have set up here, mr. cadigan? mr. cadigan. this is a portable ultraviolet viewer i used to examine the papers and i think probably what is most noticeable is in the manila tapes. the tape on the right is the sample secured november . the tape at the top is from the bag , and then the one in the, you might say, lower left, toward the bottom, is the tape that was secured december . mr. eisenberg. you are referring to positions in the bottom of the ultraviolet machine? mr. cadigan. yes; relative position. mr. dulles. the one at the left is the one taken from the paper sack, isn't it? mr. cadigan. top left; yes; that would be from . mr. dulles. , and the other is---- mr. cadigan. the one on the right is . mr. dulles. what am i supposed to see? mr. cadigan. a difference in the appearance, difference in color. mr. dulles. what do you mean? i see the violet and i see the white. mr. cadigan. well, if you look at the two tape samples---- mr. dulles. this tape sample on upper left hand is covered up by this one. i wonder whether you shouldn't take out the later one? mr. cadigan. yes; i think probably that would be better. mr. eisenberg. why don't you show mr. dulles the paper bag, , and the sample obtained november ? mr. dulles. yes; those are the two we are most interested in. mr. cadigan. the observation i would make there is that the color of the tape on exhibit , the sack, and the color of the paper of the sack , under uv, is the same as the color of the tape on and the color of the paper. mr. dulles. i agree on that. mr. eisenberg. let the record show that mr. dulles makes the statement as he is looking in the machine. mr. cadigan, why don't you compare it---- mr. cadigan. by comparison---- mr. dulles. this is only as to color, that is all i saw. i saw some markings on it. mr. cadigan. that is right. this is only for color appearance under the ultraviolet light. mr. eisenberg. why don't you compare the sack found at the tsbd and the replica sack obtained days later? mr. cadigan. here again all that should be observed is the color under uv of both the paper and tape of the sample and the paper and tape of exhibit . mr. dulles. is the paper bag, isn't it? mr. cadigan. is the replica sack obtained on december . mr. eisenberg. ten days later. mr. dulles. that is on the left? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. dulles. and the other is the sack? mr. cadigan. no; the other on your right is the sample of paper obtained on november . mr. dulles. november , just after the assassination? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. dulles. there is a clear distinction here. the sample to the right, that is, as i understand it, paper obtained on the evening of november , has a more, a deeper violet shade, and on the other hand, the tape is much lighter than the tape on the sample obtained days later. that is to say that the sample days later is darker as to the tape but lighter as to the paper. would you like the opportunity, mr. murray? mr. murray. no, thank you. mr. eisenberg. we are putting in the sack and , the -day later sample. mr. dulles. sack and -day later sample. which is on which side? mr. cadigan. the sack is on the left and the replica bag obtained on december is on the right. mr. dulles. yes. i find there that the sample obtained days later, and the sack which is on the left, that the sample obtained days later shows a lighter shade of purple than the sack, and that the tape shows a darker shade of, i would call it, almost gray as against almost white for the tape which is on the sack. mr. eisenberg. i have no further questions, mr. dulles. mr. dulles. have you anything that you feel you should add, anything in this general field that would help the commission? mr. cadigan. no, sir; not as it relates to this paper and these paper bags. mr. eisenberg. you will be called later for testimony on handwriting--i suppose you will be the person to testify? mr. cadigan. whenever you want me i will be available. mr. eisenberg. did you examine the tape for microscopic--to determine the morphology of the fibers in the paper? mr. cadigan. no. mr. eisenberg. can you tell us why? mr. cadigan. i didn't feel it was necessary. mr. eisenberg. i wonder whether you could do that, mr. cadigan, and send us a letter as to the results? mr. cadigan. certainly. (the letter referred to was later supplied and is set forth at the end of this testimony.) mr. eisenberg. and also, did you notice how the glue had been applied to the tapes? mr. cadigan. yes; you might say glue was applied all the way across the tapes. mr. eisenberg. there are no discernible differences in them? mr. cadigan. the glue on the tapes would be applied with a brush at the time of manufacture. mr. eisenberg. is there more than one way of applying glue? mr. cadigan. oh, yes. on some tapes, if you look at them either before or after they are used you will see a continuous line running right down the tape where they have used a wheel applicator, merely a difference in manufacturing methods. mr. eisenberg. but you found a brush applicator? mr. cadigan. yes. mr. eisenberg. will the same manufacturer use two different methods? mr. cadigan. he might or might not. mr. eisenberg. in your experience, is it likely that he would use two different methods? mr. cadigan. i really couldn't say. mr. dulles. mr. cadigan, i thank you very much for your most interesting and helpful testimony. (whereupon, at : p.m., the president's commission recessed.) (following is the text of a letter relating to the fiber composition of the gummed tapes in exhibits and .) united states department of justice, federal bureau of investigation, _washington, d.c., april , _. [by courier service]. hon. j. lee rankin, _general counsel, the president's commission, maryland avenue ne., washington, d.c._ dear mr. rankin: during the testimony of special agent james c. cadigan on april , , before the president's commission, mr. melvin eisenberg of your staff orally requested special agent cadigan to make a fiber analysis of the gummed tape on the paper sack found on the sixth floor of the texas school book depository building, commission exhibit , and of the sample of gummed tape in commission exhibit obtained november , , at the texas school book depository building. fiber analysis of the two gummed tapes in commission exhibits and revealed that they were similar in fiber composition. sincerely yours, j. edgar hoover. _tuesday, april , _ testimony of dr. robert roeder shaw, dr. charles francis gregory, gov. john bowden connally, jr., and mrs. john bowden connally, jr. the president's commission met at : p.m., on april , , at maryland avenue ne., washington, d.c. present were chief justice earl warren, chairman; senator richard b. russell, senator john sherman cooper, representative hale boggs, john j. mccloy, and allen w. dulles, members. also present present were j. lee rankin, general counsel; francis w. h. adams, assistant counsel; joseph a. ball, assistant counsel; david w. belin, assistant counsel; norman redlich, assistant counsel; arlen specter, assistant counsel; charles murray and charles rhyne, observers; and waggoner carr, attorney general of texas. testimony of dr. robert roeder shaw senator cooper. the commission will come to order. dr. shaw, you understand that the purpose of this inquiry is taken under the order of the president appointing the commission on the assassination of president kennedy to investigate all the facts relating to his assassination. dr. shaw. i do. senator cooper. and report to the public. do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? dr. shaw. i do. senator cooper. do you desire an attorney to be with you? dr. shaw. no. mr. specter. will you state your full name for the record, please? dr. shaw. robert roeder shaw. mr. specter. what is your profession, please? dr. shaw. physician and surgeon. mr. specter. will you outline briefly your educational background? dr. shaw. i received my b.a. degree from the university of michigan in , and my m.d. degree from the same institution in . following that i served years at the roosevelt hospital in new york city from july , to july , in training in general surgery. i had then years of training in thoracic surgery at the university hospital, ann arbor, mich., from july to july . on august , , i entered private practice limiting my practice to thoracic surgery in dallas, tex. mr. dulles. what kind of surgery? dr. shaw. thoracic surgery or surgery of the chest. i have practiced there continuously except for a period from june , until december , when i was a member of the medical corps of the army of the united states serving principally in the european theater of operations. i was away again from december , until june of , when i was head of the medico team and performed surgery at avicenna hospital in kabul, pakistan. mr. dulles. will you tell us a little bit about medico. is that the ship? dr. shaw. no; that is hope. medico was formed by the late dr. tom dooley. mr. dulles. yes; i know him very well. he was the man in laos. dr. shaw. yes, sir; this was one of their projects. mr. dulles. i see. dr. shaw. i returned to---- mr. dulles. an interesting project. dr. shaw. i returned to dallas and on september , , started working full time with the university of texas southwestern medical school as professor of thoracic surgery and chairman of the division of thoracic surgery. in this position i also am chief of thoracic surgery at parkland memorial hospital in dallas which is the chief hospital from the standpoint of the medical facilities of the school. mr. specter. are you licensed to practice medicine in the state of texas? dr. shaw. i am. mr. specter. are you certified? dr. shaw. by the board of thoracic surgery you mean? mr. specter. yes; by the board of thoracic surgery. dr. shaw. yes; as of . mr. specter. what experience, if any, have you had, dr. shaw, with bullet wounds? dr. shaw. i have had civilian experience, both in the work at parkland hospital, where we see a great amount of trauma, and much of this involves bullet wounds from homicidal attempts and accidents. the chief experience i had, however, was during the second world war when i was serving as chief of the thoracic surgery center in paris, france. and during this particular experience we admitted over patients with chest wounds of various sort, many of them, of course, being shell fragments rather than bullet wounds. mr. specter. what is your best estimate as to the total number of bullet wounds you have had experience with? dr. shaw. it would be approximately , , considering the large number of admissions we had in paris. mr. specter. what were your duties in a general way on november , . dr. shaw. on that particular date i had been at a conference at woodlawn hospital, which is our hospital for medical chest diseases connected with the medical school system. i had just gone to the children's hospital to see a small patient that i had done a bronchoscopy on a few days before and was returning to parkland hospital, and the medical school. woodlawn and the children's hospital are approximately a mile away from parkland hospital. mr. specter. were you called upon to render any aid to president kennedy on november ? dr. shaw. no. mr. specter. were you called upon to render medical aid to gov. john b. connally on that day? dr. shaw. yes. mr. specter. will you describe briefly the circumstances surrounding your being called into the case. dr. shaw. as i was driving toward the medical school i came to an intersection of harry hines boulevard and industrial boulevard. there is also a railroad crossing at this particular point. i saw an open limousine pass this point at high speed with a police escort. we were held up in traffic because of this escort. finally, when we were allowed to proceed, i went on to the medical school expecting to eat lunch. i had the radio on because it was the day that i knew the president was in dallas and would be eating lunch at the trade mart which was not far away, and over the radio i heard the report that the president had been shot at while riding in the motorcade. i went on to the medical school and as i entered the medical school a student came in and joined three other students, and said the president has just been brought into the emergency room at parkland, dead on arrival. the students said, "you are kidding, aren't you?" and he said, "no, i am not. i saw him, and governor connally has been shot through the chest." hearing that i turned and walked over to the emergency room, which is approximately yards from the medical school, and entered the emergency room. mr. specter. at approximately what time did you arrive at the emergency room where governor connally was situated? dr. shaw. as near as i could tell it was about : . mr. specter. who was with governor connally, if anyone, at that time, dr. shaw? dr. shaw. i immediately recognized two of the men who worked with me in thoracic surgery, dr. james duke and dr. james boland, dr. giesecke, who is an anesthesiologist, was also there along with a dr. david mebane who is an instructor in general surgery. mr. specter. what was governor connally's condition at that time, based on your observations? dr. shaw. the governor was complaining bitterly of difficulty in breathing, and of pain in his right chest. prior to my arriving there, the men had very properly placed a tight occlusive dressing over what on later examination proved to be a large sucking wound in the front of his right chest, and they had inserted a rubber tube between the second and third ribs in the front of the right chest, carrying this tube to what we call a water seal bottle. mr. specter. what was the purpose? dr. shaw. yes; this is done to reexpand the right lung which had collapsed due to the opening through the chest wall. mr. specter. what wounds, if any, did you observe on the governor at that time? dr. shaw. i observed no wounds on the governor at this time. it wasn't until he was taken to the operating room that i properly examined him from the standpoint of the wound. mr. specter. how long after your initial viewing of him was he taken to the operating room? dr. shaw. within about minutes. i stepped outside to talk to mrs. connally because i had been given information by dr. duke that blood had been drawn from the governor, sent to the laboratory for cross-matching for blood that we knew would be necessary, that the operating room had already been alerted, and that they were ready and they were merely awaiting my arrival. mr. specter. how was governor connally transported from the emergency room to the operating room? dr. shaw. on a stretcher. mr. specter. and was he transported up an elevator as well? dr. shaw. yes. it is two floors above the emergency rooms. mr. specter. will you describe what happened next in connection with governor connally's---- mr. dulles. could i ask a question, putting in this tube is prior to making an incision? mr. shaw. yes; a stab wound. mr. dulles. just a stab wound? dr. shaw. yes. mr. specter. what treatment next followed for governor connally, doctor? dr. shaw. he was taken to the operating room and there dr. giesecke started the anesthesia. this entails giving an intravenous injection of sodium pentothal and then after the governor was asleep a gas was used, that will be on the anesthetic record there. mr. specter. do you know at approximately what time this procedure was started? dr. shaw. i will have to refresh my memory again from the record. we had at the time i testified before, we had the---- mr. specter. permit me to make available to you a copy of the parkland memorial hospital operative record and let me ask you, first of all, if you can identify these two pages on an exhibit heretofore marked as commission exhibit as to whether or not this constitutes your report? dr. shaw. yes; this is a transcription of my dictated report of the operation. mr. specter. are the facts set forth therein true and correct? dr. shaw. yes. on this it states that the operation itself was begun at hours or o'clock, p.m., and that the actual surgery started at or : p.m. the operation was concluded by me at -- which would be : p.m. mr. specter. you have described, in a general way, the chest wound. what other wounds, if any, was governor connally suffering from at the time you saw him? dr. shaw. i will describe then the wound of the wrist which was obvious. he had a wound of the lower right forearm that i did not accurately examine because i had already talked to dr. gregory while i was scrubbing for the operation, told him that this wound would need his attention as soon as we were able to get the chest in a satisfactory condition. there was also, i was told, i didn't see the wound, on the thigh, i was told that there was a small wound on the thigh which i saw later. mr. specter. when did you first have an opportunity then to examine governor connally's wound on the posterior aspect of his chest? dr. shaw. after the governor had been anesthetized. as soon as he was asleep so we could manipulate him--before that time it was necessary for an endotracheal tube to be in place so his respirations could be controlled before we felt we could roll him over and accurately examine the wound entrance. we knew this was the wound exit. mr. specter. this [indicating an area below the right nipple on the body]? dr. shaw. yes. mr. dulles. how did you know it was a wound exit. dr. shaw. by the fact of its size, the ragged edges of the wound. this wound was covered by a dressing which could not be removed until the governor was anesthetized. mr. specter. indicating this wound, the wound on the governor's chest? dr. shaw. yes; the front part. mr. specter. will you describe in as much detail as you can the wound on the posterior side of the governor's chest? dr. shaw. this was a small wound approximately a centimeter and a half in its greatest diameter. it was roughly elliptical. it was just medial to the axillary fold or the crease of the armpit, but we could tell that this wound, the depth of the wound, had not penetrated the shoulder blade. mr. specter. what were the characteristics, if any, which indicated to you that it was a wound of entrance then? dr. shaw. its small size, and the rather clean cut edges of the wound as compared to the usual more ragged wound of exit. mr. specter. now i hand you a diagram which is a body diagram on commission exhibit no. , and ask you if, on the back portion of the figure, that accurately depicts the point of entry into governor connally's back? dr. shaw. yes. the depiction of the point of entry, i feel is quite accurate. mr. specter. now, with respect to the front side of the body, is the point of exit accurately shown on the diagram? dr. shaw. the point is---- mr. specter. we have heretofore, may the record show the deposition covered much the same ground with dr. shaw, but the diagrams used now are new diagrams which will have to be remarked in accordance with your recollection. dr. shaw. yes. because i would have to place--they are showing here the angle. mr. dulles. is this all on the record? mr. specter. it should be. dr. shaw. we are showing on this angle, the cartilage angle which it makes at the end of the sternum. mr. specter. that is an inverted =v= which appears in front of the body? dr. shaw. now the wound was above that. they have shown it below that point so the wound would have to be placed here as far as the point is concerned. mr. specter. would you draw on that diagram a more accurate depiction of where the wound of exit occurred? dr. shaw. do you want me to initial this? mr. specter. yes; if you please, dr. shaw. i hand you another body diagram marked commission exhibit and i will ask you if that accurately depicts the angle of decline as the bullet passed through governor connally? dr. shaw. i think the declination of this line is a little too sharply downward. i would place it about ° off that line. mr. specter. will you redraw the line then, dr. shaw, and initial it, indicating the more accurate angle? dr. shaw. the reason i state this is that as they have shown this, it would place the wound of exit a little too far below the nipple. also it would, since the bullet followed the line of declination of the fifth rib, it would make the ribs placed in a too slanting position. mr. specter. what operative procedures did you employ in caring for the wound of the chest, dr. shaw. dr. shaw. the first measure was to excise the edges of the wound of exit in an elliptical fashion, and then this incision was carried in a curved incision along the lateral portion of the right chest up toward the right axilla in order to place the skin incision lower than the actual path of the bullet through the chest wall. after this incision had been carried down to the level of the muscles attached to the rib cage, all of the damaged muscle which was chiefly the serratus anterior muscle which digitates along the fifth rib at this position, was cleaned away, cut away with sharp dissection. as soon as--of course, this incision had been made, the opening through the parietal pleura, which is the lining of the inside of the chest was very obvious. it was necessary to trim away several small fragments of the rib which were still hanging to tags of periosteum, the lining of the rib, and the ragged ends of the rib were smoothed off with a rongeur. mr. specter. what damage had been inflicted upon a rib, if any, dr. shaw? dr. shaw. about centimeters of the fifth rib starting at the, about the mid-axillary line and going to the anterior axillary line, as we describe it, or that would be the midline at the armpit going to the anterior lateral portion of the chest had been stripped away by the missile. mr. specter. what is the texture of the rib at the point where the missile struck? dr. shaw. the texture of the rib here is not of great density. the cortex of the rib in the lateral portions of our ribs, is thin with the so-called cancellus portion of the rib being very spongy, offering very little resistance to pressure or to fracturing. mr. specter. what effect, if any, would the striking of that rib have had to the trajectory of the bullet? dr. shaw. it could have had a slight, caused a slight deflection of the rib, but probably not a great deflection of the rib, because of the angle at which it struck and also because of the texture of the rib at this time. mr. specter. you say deflection of the rib or deflection of the bullet? dr. shaw. deflection of the bullet, i am sorry. mr. specter. was any metallic substance from the bullet left in the thoracic cage as a result of the passage of the bullet through the governor's body? dr. shaw. no. we saw no evidence of any metallic material in the x-ray that we had of the chest, and we found none during the operation. mr. specter. have you brought the x-rays with you, dr. shaw, from parkland hospital? dr. shaw. yes; we have them here. mr. specter. may the record show we have available a viewer for the x-rays. dr. shaw, would you, by use of the viewer, exhibit the x-rays of the governor's chest to show more graphically that which you have heretofore described? dr. shaw. this is the first x-ray that was taken, which was taken in the operating room with the governor on the operating table, and at this time anesthetized. the safety pin that you see here is used, was used, to secure the tube which had been put between the second and third rib in expanding the governor's lung. we can dimly see also the latex rubber tube up in the chest coming to the apex of the chest. the variations that we see from normal here are the fact that first, there is a great amount of swelling in the chest wall which we know was due to bleeding and bruising of the tissues of the chest wall, and we also see that there is air in the tissues of the chest wall here and here. it is rather obvious. mr. specter. when you say here and here, you are referring to the outer portions, showing on the x-ray moving up toward the shoulder area? dr. shaw. yes; going from the lower chest up to the region near the angle of the shoulder blade. the boney framework of the chest, it is obvious that the fifth rib, we count ribs from above downward, this is the first rib, second rib, third rib, fourth rib, fifth rib, that a portion of this rib has been shattered, and we can see a few fragments that have been left behind. also the rib has because of being broken and losing some of its substance, has taken a rather inward position in relation to the fourth and the sixth ribs on either side. mr. specter. what effect was there, if any, on the upper portion of that rib? dr. shaw. this was not noticed at the time of this examination, mr. specter. however, in subsequent examinations we can tell that there was a fracture across the rib at this point due to the rib being struck and bent. mr. specter. when you say this point, will you describe where that point exists on the x-ray? dr. shaw. this is a point approximately centimeters from its connection with the transverse process of the spine. mr. specter. and is the fracture, which is located there, caused by a striking there or by the striking at the end of the rib? dr. shaw. it is caused by the striking at the end of the rib. mr. specter. fine. what else then is discernible from the viewing of the x-ray, dr. shaw? dr. shaw. there is a great amount of, we would say, obscuration of the lower part of the right lung field which we know from subsequent examination was due to blood in the pleural cavity and also due to a hematoma in the lower part of the right lower lobe and also a severe laceration of the middle lobe with it having lost its ability to ventilate at that time. so, we have both an airless lung, and blood in the lung to account for these shadows. mr. specter. is there anything else visible from the x-ray which is helpful in our understanding of the governor's condition? dr. shaw. no; i don't think so. mr. specter. would it be useful--as to that x-ray, dr. shaw, will you tell us what identifying data, if any, it has in the records of parkland hospital, for the record? dr. shaw. on this x-ray it has in pencil john g. connally. mr. specter. is that g or c? dr. shaw. they have a "g" november , , and it has number - . mr. specter. were those x-rays taken under your supervision? dr. shaw. yes, by a technician. mr. specter. and that is, in fact, the x-ray then which was taken of governor connally at the time these procedures were being performed? dr. shaw. it is. mr. specter. dr. shaw, would any of the other x-rays be helpful in our understanding of the governor's condition? dr. shaw. i believe the only--perhaps showing one additional x-ray would show the fracture previously described which was not easily discernible on the first film. this is quite often true but not important to the--here is the fracture that can be easily seen. mr. specter. you are now referring to a separate and second x-ray. dr. shaw. yes. mr. specter. will you start out by telling us on what date this x-ray was performed. dr. shaw. this x-ray was made on the th of november , days following the incident. mr. specter. what does it show of significance? dr. shaw. it shows that there has been considerable clearing in the lower portion of the lung, and also that there is a fracture of the fifth rib as previously described approximately centimeters from the transverse process posteriorly. mr. specter. is there anything else depicted by that x-ray of material assistance in evaluating the governor's wound? dr. shaw. no. mr. mccloy. were there any photographs taken as distinguished from x-rays of the body? dr. shaw. there were no photographs. mr. specter. dr. shaw, we shall then, subject to the approval of the commission, for the record, have the x-rays reproduced at parkland memorial hospital, and, if possible, also have a photograph of the x-ray made for the permanent records of the commission to show the actual x-ray, which dr. shaw has described during his testimony here this afternoon. senator cooper. it is directed that it be made a part of the record of these hearings. mr. specter. dr. shaw, what additional operative procedures did you perform on governor connally's chest? dr. shaw. i will continue with my description of the operative procedure. the opening that had been made through the rib after the removal of the fragments was adequate for further exploration of the pleural cavity. a self-retaining retractor was put into place to maintain exposure. inside the pleural cavity there were approximately cc. of clotted blood. it was found that the middle lobe had been lacerated with the laceration dividing the lobe into roughly two equal parts. the laceration ran from the lower tip of the middle lobe up into its root or hilum. however, the lobe was not otherwise damaged, so that it could be repaired using a running suture of triple zero chromic catgut. the anterior basal segments of the right lower lobe had a large hematoma, and blood was oozing out of one small laceration that was a little less than a centimeter in length, where a rib fragment had undoubtedly been driven into the lobe. to control hemorrhage a single suture of triple zero chromic gut was placed in this laceration. there were several small matchstick size fragments of rib within the pleural cavity. examination, however, of the pericardium of the diaphragm and the upper lobe revealed no injury to these parts of the chest. a drain was placed in the eighth space in the posterior axillary line similar to the drain which had been placed in the second interspace in the front of the chest. the drain in the front of the chest was thought to be a little too long so about centimeters of it were cut away. attention was then turned on the laceration of the latissimus dorsi muscle where the missile had passed through it. several sutures of chromic gut where used to repair this muscle. the incision was then closed with interrupted no. zero chromic gut in the muscles of the chest wall--first, i am sorry, in the intercostale muscle, and muscles of the chest wall, and the same suture material was used to close the serratus anterior muscle in the subcutaneous tissue, and interrupted vertical sutures of black silk were used to close the skin. attention was then turned to the wound of entrance which, as previously described, was about a centimeter and a half in its greatest diameter, roughly elliptical in shape. the skin edges of this wound were incised--excised, i beg your pardon--i have to go back just a little bit. prior to examination of this wound, a stab wound was made at the angle of the scapula to place a drain in the subscapular space. in the examination of the wound of entrance, the examining finger could determine that this drain was immediately under the wound of entrance, so that it was adequately draining the space. two sutures were placed in the facia of the muscle, and the skin was closed with interrupted vertical matching sutures of black silk. that concluded the operation. both tubes were connected to a water seal bottle, and the dressing was applied. mr. specter. who was in charge then of the subsequent care on the governor's wrist? dr. shaw. dr. charles gregory who had been previously alerted and then came in to take care of the wrist. mr. specter. now, with respect to the wound on the wrist, did you have any opportunity to examine it by way of determining points of entry and exit? dr. shaw. my examination of the wrist was a very cursory one. i could tell that there was a compound comminuted fracture because there was motion present, and there was a ragged wound just over the radius above the wrist joint. but that was the extent of my examination of the wrist. mr. specter. dr. shaw, did i take your deposition at parkland memorial hospital on march of ? dr. shaw. yes; you did. mr. specter. has that deposition been made available to you? dr. shaw. yes. mr. specter. to you here this afternoon? dr. shaw. yes. mr. specter. have you subsequent to the giving of that deposition on march , , had an opportunity to examine governor connally's clothing which we have available in the commission room here today? dr. shaw. yes. mr. specter. now, based on all facts now within your knowledge, is there any modification which you would care to make in terms of the views which you expressed about entrance and exit wounds back on march , based on the information which was available to you at that time? dr. shaw. from an examination of the clothing, it is very obvious that the wound of entrance was through the coat sleeve. mr. specter. while you are testifying in that manner, perhaps it would be helpful if we would make available to you the actual jacket, if it pleases the commission. we shall reserve exhibits nos. for the x-ray of november ; for the x-ray of november ; and we shall now mark a photograph of the coat for our permanent records as "commission exhibit no. ". dr. shaw, i hand you at this time what purports to be the coat worn by governor connally, which we introduce subject to later proof when governor connally appears later this afternoon; and, for the record, i ask you first of all if this photograph, designated as commission exhibit no. , is a picture of this suit coat? dr. shaw. it is. mr. specter. i had interrupted you when you started to refer to the hole in the sleeve of the coat. will you proceed with what you were testifying about there? dr. shaw. the hole in the sleeve of the coat is within half a centimeter of the very edge of the sleeve, and lies---- mr. dulles. this is the right sleeve, is it not? dr. shaw. i am sorry, yes. thank you. of the right sleeve, and places it, if the coat sleeve was in the same position, assuming it is in the same position that my coat sleeve is in, places it directly over the lateral portion of the wrist, really not directly on the volar or the dorsum of the surface of the wrist, but on the lateral position or the upper position, as the wrist is held in a neutral position. mr. specter. with the additional information provided by the coat, would that enable you to give an opinion as to which was the wound of entrance and which the wound of exit on the governor's wrist? dr. shaw. there is only one tear in the governor's garment as far as the appearance of the tear is concerned, i don't think i could render an opinion as to whether this is a wound of entrance or exit. mr. specter. then, do you have sufficient information at your disposal in total, based on your observations and what you know now to give any meaningful opinion as to which was the wound of entrance and which the wound of exit on the governor's wrist? dr. shaw. i would prefer to have dr. gregory testify about that, because he has examined it more carefully than i have. mr. specter. fine. mr. dulles. could you tell at all how the arm was held from that mark or that hole in the sleeve? dr. shaw. mr. dulles, i thought i knew just how the governor was wounded until i saw the pictures today, and it becomes a little bit harder to explain. i felt that the wound had been caused by the same bullet that came out through the chest with the governor's arm held in approximately this position. mr. specter. indicating the right hand held close to the body? dr. shaw. yes, and this is still a possibility. but i don't feel that it is the only possibility. senator cooper. why do you say you don't think it is the only possibility? what causes you now to say that it is the location---- dr. shaw. this is again the testimony that i believe dr. gregory will be giving, too. it is a matter of whether the wrist wound could be caused by the same bullet, and we felt that it could but we had not seen the bullets until today, and we still do not know which bullet actually inflicted the wound on governor connally. mr. dulles. or whether it was one or two wounds? dr. shaw. yes. mr. dulles. or two bullets? dr. shaw. yes; or three. mr. dulles. why do you say three? dr. shaw. he has three separate wounds. he has a wound in the chest, a wound of the wrist, a wound of the thigh. mr. dulles. oh, yes; we haven't come to the wound of the thigh yet, have we? mr. mccloy. you have no firm opinion that all these three wounds were caused by one bullet? dr. shaw. i have no firm opinion. mr. mccloy. that is right. dr. shaw. asking me this now if it was true. if you had asked me a month ago i would have. mr. dulles. could they have been caused by one bullet, in your opinion? dr. shaw. they could. mr. mccloy. i gather that what the witness is saying is that it is possible that they might have been caused by one bullet. but that he has no firm opinion now that they were. mr. dulles. as i understand it too. is our understanding correct? dr. shaw. that is correct. senator cooper. when you say all three are you referring to the wounds you have just described to the chest, the wound in the wrist, and also the wound in the thigh? dr. shaw. yes. senator cooper. it was possible? dr. shaw. our original assumption, senator cooper, was that the governor was approximately in this attitude at the time he was---- senator cooper. what attitude is that now? dr. shaw. this is an attitude sitting in a jump seat as we know he was, upright, with his right forearm held across the lower portion of the chest. in this position, the trajectory of the bullet could have caused the wound of entrance, the wound of exit, struck his wrist and proceeded on into the left thigh. but although this is a possibility, i can't give a firm opinion that this is the actual way in which it occurred. mr. specter. if it pleases the commission, we propose to go through that in this testimony; and we have already started to mark other exhibits in sequence on the clothing. so that it will be more systematic, we plan to proceed with the identification of clothing and then go on to the composite diagram which explains the first hypothesis of dr. shaw and the other doctors of parkland. and then proceed from that, as i intend to do, with an examination of the bullet, which will explore the thinking of the doctor on that subject. dr. shaw, for our record, i will hand you commission exhibit no. and ask you if that is a picture of the reverse side of the coat, which we will later prove to have been worn by governor connally, the coat which is before you? dr. shaw. it is. mr. specter. what, if anything, appears on the back of that coat and also on the picture in line with the wound which you have described on the governor's posterior chest? dr. shaw. the picture--the coat and the picture of the coat, show a rent in the back of the coat approximately -centimeters medial to the point where the sleeve has been joined to the main portion of the garment. the lighter-colored material of the lining of the coat can be seen through this rent in the coat. mr. specter. dr. shaw, i show you a shirt, subject to later proof that it was the shirt worn by governor connally, together with a photograph marked "commission exhibit no. ," and ask you if that is a picture of that shirt, the back side of the shirt? dr. shaw. yes; it is a picture of the back side of the shirt. however, in this particular picture i am not able to make out the hole in the shirt very well. now i see it, i believe; yes. mr. specter. will you describe the hole as you see it to exist in the shirt? aside from what you see on the picture, what hole do you observe on the back of the shirt itself? dr. shaw. on the back of the shirt itself there is a hole, a punched out area of the shirt which is a little more than a centimeter in its greater diameter. the whole shirt is soiled by brown stains which could have been due to blood. mr. specter. how does the hole in the back of the shirt correspond with the wound on the governor's back? dr. shaw. it does correspond exactly. mr. specter. now turning the same shirt over to the front side, i ask you if the photograph, marked "commission exhibit no. ," is a picture of the front side of this shirt? dr. shaw. it is. mr. specter. what does the picture of the shirt show with respect to a hole, if any, on the right side of the front of the shirt? dr. shaw. the picture and the shirt show on the right side a much larger rent in the garment with the rent being approximately centimeters in its largest diameter. mr. specter. what wound, if any, did the governor sustain on his thigh, dr. shaw? mr. dulles. just one moment, are you leaving this? mr. specter. yes. mr. dulles. i wonder whether or not it would not be desirable for the doctor to put on this photograph where these holes are, because they are not at all clear for the future if we want to study those photographs. dr. shaw. this one is not so hard. mr. dulles. that one appears but the other one doesn't appear and i think it would be very helpful. dr. shaw. how would you like to have me outline this? mr. specter. draw a red circle of what you conceive to be the hole there, doctor. mr. dulles. the actual hole is not nearly as big as your circle, it is the darkened area inside that circle, is it not? dr. shaw. yes; the darkened area is enclosed by the circle. mr. specter. are you able to note on the photograph of the back of the shirt, ? will you draw a red circle around the area of the hole on the photograph then, dr. shaw? mr. dulles. would you just initial those two circles, if you can. mr. specter. dr. shaw, what wounds, if any, did the governor sustain on his left thigh? dr. shaw. he sustained a small puncture-type wound on the medial aspect of the left thigh. mr. specter. did you have an opportunity to examine that closely? dr. shaw. no. mr. specter. did you have an opportunity to examine it sufficiently to ascertain its location on the left thigh? dr. shaw. no; i didn't examine it that closely, except for its general location. mr. specter. where was it with respect to a general location then on the governor's thigh? dr. shaw. it is on the medial anterior aspect of the thigh. mr. dulles. nontechnically, what does it mean? dr. shaw. well, above, slightly above, between, in other words, the medial aspect would be the aspect toward the middle of the body, but as far as being how many centimeters or inches it is from the knee and the groin, i am not absolutely sure. mr. specter. i now show you a pair of trousers which we shall later identify as being those worn by the governor. i will, first of all, ask you if a photograph bearing commission exhibit no. is a picture of those trousers? dr. shaw. it is. mr. specter. and what hole, if any did you observe on the trousers and on the picture of the trousers? dr. shaw. there is a hole in the garment that has been made by some instrument which has carried away a part of the governor's garment. in other words, it is not a tear but is a punched out hole, and this is approximately centimeters on the inner aspect from the crease of the trousers. mr. dulles. can you tell where the knee is there and how far above the knee approximately? dr. shaw. i can't tell exactly. mr. dulles. i guess you can't tell. dr. shaw. from the crotch i would say it would be slightly, it is a little hard to tell, slightly more toward the knee than the groin. mr. specter. does that hole in the left leg of the trousers match up to the wound on the left thigh of the governor? dr. shaw. to the best of my recollection it does. mr. dulles. are there any other perforations in these trousers at all, any other holes? dr. shaw. no. mr. dulles. so that means that whatever made the hole on the front side did not come through and make a hole anywhere else in the trousers? dr. shaw. that is correct. it had to be a penetrating wound and not a perforating wound, it didn't go on through. mr. specter. will you turn those trousers over, dr. shaw? dr. shaw. i believe we had already looked at it. mr. specter. on the reverse side, and state whether or not this picture bearing commission exhibit no. accurately depicts the reverse side of the trousers? dr. shaw. yes; it does. mr. specter. is there any hole shown either on the picture or on the trousers themselves? dr. shaw. no. mr. specter. dr. shaw, i now show you a body diagram which is marked "commission exhibit no. ." senator cooper. may i ask a question before you ask that question? when you first saw governor connally in the emergency room was he dressed or undressed? dr. shaw. his trousers were still on. he had his shorts on, i should say, senator cooper, but his coat, shirt, and trousers had been removed. mr. specter. were his clothes anywhere in the vicinity where you could have seen them? dr. shaw. no; i never saw them. this is the first time that i saw them. mr. specter. that is earlier today when you examined them in this room? dr. shaw. that is correct. mr. specter. looking at commission exhibit no. , is that a drawing which was prepared, after consultation with you, representing the earlier theory of all of the governor's wounds having been inflicted by a single missile? dr. shaw. that is correct. mr. specter. with reference to that diagram, would you explain the position that you had earlier thought the governor to have been in when he was wounded here? dr. shaw. we felt that the governor was in an upright sitting position, and at the time of wounding was turning slightly to the right. this would bring the three wounds, as we know them, the wound in the chest, the wound in the wrist, and the wound in the thigh into a line assuming that the right forearm was held against the lower right chest in front. the line of inclination of this particular diagram is a little more sharply downward than is probably correct in view of the inclination of the ribs of the chest. mr. specter. will you redraw that line, dr. shaw, to conform with what you believe to be---- dr. shaw. the fact that the muscle bundles on either side of the fifth rib were not damaged meant that the missile to strip away centimeters of the rib had to follow this rib pretty much along its line of inclination. mr. dulles. i wonder if you could use that red pencil to make it a little clearer for us? dr. shaw. i think these would probably work well on this paper. perhaps this isn't a tremendous point but it slopes just a little too much. mr. specter. you have initialed that to show your incline? dr. shaw. yes. mr. specter. with respect to the wound you described on the thigh, dr. shaw, was there any point of exit as to that wound? dr. shaw. no. mr. specter. i now show you---- mr. dulles. could i ask one more question there, how deep was the wound of entry, could you tell at all? dr. shaw. mr. dulles, i didn't examine the wound of the thigh so i can't testify as to that. dr. gregory, i think, was there at the time that the debris was carried out and he may have more knowledge than i have. mr. dulles. we will hear dr. gregory later? mr. specter. yes; he is scheduled to testify as soon as dr. shaw concludes. dr. shaw, i now show you commission exhibit which has heretofore been identified as being a virtually whole bullet weighing grains. may i say for the record, that in the depositions which have been taken in parkland hospital, that we have ascertained, and those depositions are part of the overall record, that is the bullet which came from the stretcher of governor connally. first, dr. shaw, have you had a chance to examine that bullet earlier today? dr. shaw. yes; i examined it this morning. mr. specter. is it possible that the bullet which went through the governor's chest could have emerged being as fully intact as that bullet is? dr. shaw. yes; i believe it is possible because of the fact that the bullet struck the fifth rib at a very acute angle and struck a portion of the rib which would not offer a great amount of resistance. mr. specter. does that bullet appear to you to have any of its metal flaked off? dr. shaw. i have been told that the one point on the nose of this bullet that is deformed was cut off for purposes of examination. with that information, i would have to say that this bullet has lost literally none of its substance. mr. specter. now, as to the wound on the thigh, could that bullet have gone into the governor's thigh without causing any more damage than appears on the face of that bullet? dr. shaw. if it was a spent bullet; yes. as far as the bullet is concerned it could have caused the governor's thigh wound as a spent missile. mr. specter. why do you say it is a spent missile, would you elaborate on what your thinking is on that issue? dr. shaw. only from what i have been told by dr. shires and dr. gregory, that the depth of the wound was only into the subcutaneous tissue, not actually into the muscle of the leg, so it meant that missile had penetrated for a very short period. am i quoting you correctly, dr. gregory? mr. specter. may the record show dr. gregory is present during this testimony and---- dr. gregory. i will say yes. mr. specter. and indicates in the affirmative. do you have sufficient knowledge of the wound of the wrist to render an opinion as to whether that bullet could have gone through governor connally's wrist and emerged being as much intact as it is? dr. shaw. i do not. mr. specter. dr. shaw, assume if you will certain facts to be true in hypothetical form, that is, that the president was struck in the upper portion of the back or lower portion of the neck with a . -mm. missile passing between the strap muscles of the president's neck, proceeding through a facia channel striking no bones, not violating the pleural cavity, and emerging through the anterior third of the neck, with the missile having been fired from a weapon having a muzzle velocity of approximately , feet per second, with the muzzle being approximately to feet from the president's body; that the missile was a copper jacketed bullet. would it be possible for that bullet to have then proceeded approximately or feet and then would it be possible for it to have struck governor connally in the back and have inflicted the wound which you have described on the posterior aspect of his chest, and also on the anterior aspect of his chest? dr. shaw. yes. mr. specter. and what would your reason be for giving an affirmative answer to that question, dr. shaw? dr. shaw. because i would feel that a missile with this velocity and weight striking no more than the soft tissues of the neck would have adequate velocity and mass to inflict the wound that we found on the governor's chest. mr. specter. now, without respect to whether or not the bullet identified as commission exhibit is or is not the one which inflicted the wound on the governor, is it possible that a missile similar to the one which i have just described in the hypothetical question could have inflicted all of the governor's wounds in accordance with the theory which you have outlined on commission exhibit no. ? dr. shaw. assuming that it also had passed through the president's neck you mean? mr. specter. no; i had not added that factor in. i will in the next question. dr. shaw. all right. as far as the wounds of the chest are concerned, i feel that this bullet could have inflicted those wounds. but the examination of the wrist both by x-ray and at the time of surgery showed some fragments of metal that make it difficult to believe that the same missile could have caused these two wounds. there seems to be more than three grains of metal missing as far as the--i mean in the wrist. mr. specter. your answer there, though, depends upon the assumption that the bullet which we have identified as exhibit is the bullet which did the damage to the governor. aside from whether or not that is the bullet which inflicted the governor's wounds. dr. shaw. i see. mr. specter. could a bullet traveling in the path which i have described in the prior hypothetical question, have inflicted all of the wounds on the governor? dr. shaw. yes. mr. specter. and so far as the velocity and the dimension of the bullet are concerned, is it possible that the same bullet could have gone through the president in the way that i have described and proceed through the governor causing all of his wounds without regard to whether or not it was bullet ? dr. shaw. yes. mr. specter. when you started to comment about it not being possible, was that in reference to the existing mass and shape of bullet ? dr. shaw. i thought you were referring directly to the bullet shown as exhibit . mr. specter. what is your opinion as to whether bullet could have inflicted all of the wounds on the governor, then, without respect at this point to the wound of the president's neck? dr. shaw. i feel that there would be some difficulty in explaining all of the wounds as being inflicted by bullet exhibit without causing more in the way of loss of substance to the bullet or deformation of the bullet. (discussion off the record.) mr. specter. dr. shaw, have you had an opportunity today here in the commission building to view the movies which we referred to as the zapruder movies and the slides taken from these movies? dr. shaw. yes. mr. specter. and what, if any, light did those movies shed on your evaluation and opinions on this matter with respect to the wounds of the governor? dr. shaw. well, my main interest was to try to place the time that the governor was struck by the bullet which inflicted the wound on his chest in reference to the sequence of the three shots, as has been described to us. (at this point the chief justice entered the hearing room.) this meant trying to carefully examine the position of the governor's body in the car so that it would fall in line with what we knew the trajectory must be for this bullet coming from the point where it has been indicated it did come from. and in trying to place this actual frame that these frames are numbered when the governor was hit, my opinion was that it was frame number, let's see, i think it was no. . mr. specter. ? dr. shaw. , give or take or frames. it was right in , , , perhaps. mr. specter. i have heretofore asked you questions about what possibly could have happened in terms of the various combinations of possibilities on missiles striking the governor in relationship to striking the president as well. do you have any opinion as to what, in fact, did happen? dr. shaw. yes. from the pictures, from the conversation with governor connally and mrs. connally, it seems that the first bullet hit the president in the shoulder and perforated the neck, but this was not the bullet that governor connally feels hit him; and in the sequence of films i think it is hard to say that the first bullet hit both of these men almost simultaneously. mr. specter. is that view based on the information which governor connally provided to you? dr. shaw. largely. mr. specter. as opposed to any objectively determinable facts from the bullets, the situs of the wounds or your viewing of the pictures? dr. shaw. yes. i was influenced a great deal by what governor connally knew about his movements in the car at this particular time. mr. dulles. you have indicated a certain angle of declination on this chart here which the chief justice has. dr. shaw. yes. mr. specter. do you know enough about the angle of declination of the bullet that hit the president to judge at all whether these two angles of declination are consistent? dr. shaw. we know that the angle of declination was a downward one from back to front so that i think this is consistent with the angle of declination of the wound that the governor sustained. senator cooper. are you speaking of the angle of declination in the president's body? dr. shaw. of the first wound? mr. specter. yes. dr. shaw. first wound. mr. specter. what you have actually seen from pictures to show the angle of declination? dr. shaw. that is right. mr. specter. in the wounds in the president's body? dr. shaw. yes; that is right. i did not examine the president. mr. dulles. and that angle taking into account say the feet difference between where the president was sitting and where the governor was sitting, would be consistent with the point of entry of the governor's body as you have shown it? dr. shaw. the jump seat in the car, as we could see, placed the governor sitting at a lower level than the president, and i think conceivably these two wounds could have been caused by the same bullet. mr. specter. do you have anything else to add, dr. shaw, which you think would be helpful to the commission in any way? dr. shaw. i don't believe so mr. specter. mr. specter. may it please the commission then i would like to move into evidence commission exhibits nos. and , and then reserve nos. and until we get the photographs of the x-rays and i now move for admission into evidence commission exhibits nos. through . senator cooper. they have all been identified, have they? mr. specter. yes, sir; during the course of dr. shaw's testimony. senator cooper. it is ordered then that these exhibits be received in the record. (the documents referred to, previously identified as commission exhibits nos. , , and - for identification were received in evidence.) mr. mccloy. just one or two questions. it is perfectly clear, doctor, that the wound, the lethal wound on the president did not--the bullet that caused the lethal wound on the president, did not cause any wounds on governor connally, in your opinion? dr. shaw. mr. mccloy, i couldn't say that from my knowledge. mr. mccloy. we are talking about the, following up what mr. dulles said about the angle of declination, the wound that came through the president's collar, you said was consistent between the same bullet. i just wondered whether under all the circumstances that you know about the president's head wound on the top that would also be consistent with a wound in governor connally's body? dr. shaw. on the chest, yes; i am not so sure about the wrist. i can't quite place where his wrist was at the time his chest was struck. mr. mccloy. now perhaps this is dr. gregory's testimony, that is the full description of the wrist wound, that would be his rather than your testimony? dr. shaw. i think he could throw just as much light on it as i could. and more in certain aspects. mr. mccloy. it did hit bone? dr. shaw. obviously. mr. mccloy. and there must have been a considerable diminution in the velocity of the bullet after penetrating through the wrist? dr. shaw. yes. mr. dulles. the wound inflicted on it, the chest wound on governor connally, if you move that an inch or two, inch or the other, could that have been lethal, go through an area that could easily have been lethal? dr. shaw. yes; of course, if it had been moved more medially it could have struck the heart and the great vessels. mr. mccloy. let me ask you this, doctor, in your experience with gunshot wounds, is it possible for a man to be hit sometime before he realizes it? dr. shaw. yes. there can be a delay in the sensory reaction. mr. mccloy. yes; so that a man can think as of a given instant he was not hit, and when actually he could have been hit. dr. shaw. there can be an extending sensation and then just a gradual building up of a feeling of severe injury. mr. mccloy. but there could be a delay in any appreciable reaction between the time of the impact of the bullet and the occurrence? dr. shaw. yes; but in the case of a wound which strikes a bony substance such as a rib, usually the reaction is quite prompt. mr. mccloy. yes. dr. shaw. yes. mr. mccloy. now, you have indicated, i think, that this bullet traveled along, hit and traveled along the path of the rib, is that right? dr. shaw. yes. mr. mccloy. is it possible that it could have not, the actual bullet could not have hit the rib at all but it might have been the expanding flesh that would cause the wound or the proper contusion, i guess you would call it on the rib itself? dr. shaw. i think we would have to postulate that the bullet hit the rib itself by the neat way in which it stripped the rib out without doing much damage to the muscles that lay on either side of it. mr. mccloy. was--up until you gave him the anesthetic--the governor was fully conscious, was he? dr. shaw. i would not say fully, but he was responsive. he would answer questions. mr. mccloy. i think that is all i have. the chairman. i have no questions of the doctor. mr. dulles. there were no questions put to him that were significant as far as our testimony is concerned? dr. shaw. no; we really don't have to question him much. our problem was pretty clearcut, and he told us it hurt and that was about his only response as far as---- senator cooper. could i ask you a question, doctor? i think you said from the time you came into the emergency room and the time you went to the operating room was about minutes? dr. shaw. yes; it was just the time that it took to ask a few simple questions, what has been done so far, and has the operating room been alerted, and then i went out and talked to mrs. connally, just very briefly, i told her what the problem was in respect to the governor and what we were going to have to do about it and she said to go ahead with anything that was necessary. so this couldn't have taken more than minutes or so. mr. dulles. did he say anything or did anyone say anything there about the circumstances of the shooting? dr. shaw. not at that time. mr. dulles. either of governor connally or the president? dr. shaw. not at that time. all of our conversation was later. mr. dulles. was the president in the same room? dr. shaw. no. mr. dulles. did you see him? dr. shaw. i only saw his shoes and his feet. he was in the room immediately opposite. as i came into the hallway, i could recognize that the president was on it, in the room to my right. i knew that my problem was concerned with governor connally, and i turned and went into the room where i saw that he was. mr. dulles. did you hear at that time or have any knowledge, of a bullet which had been found on the stretcher? dr. shaw. no; this was later knowledge. mr. dulles. when did you first hear that? (at this point senator russell entered the hearing room.) dr. shaw. this information was first given to me by a man from the secret service who interviewed me in my office several weeks later. it is the first time i knew about any bullet being recovered. senator cooper. i think, of course, it is evident from your testimony you have had wide experience in chest wounds and bullet wounds in the chest. what experience have you had in, say, the field of ballistics? would this experience--you have been dealing in chest wounds caused by bullets--have provided you knowledge also about the characteristics of missiles, particularly bullets of this type? dr. shaw. no; senator. i believe that my information about ballistics is just that of an average layman, no more. perhaps a little more since i have seen deformed bullets from wounds, but i haven't gone into that aspect of wounds. senator cooper. in the answers to the hypothetical questions that were addressed to you, based upon the only actual knowledge which you could base that answer, was the fact that you had performed the operation on the wound caused in the chest, on the wound in the chest? dr. shaw. that is true. i have seen many bullets that have passed through bodies or have penetrated bodies and have struck bone and i know manners from which they are deformed but i know very little about the caliber of bullets, the velocity of bullets, many things that other people have much more knowledge of than i have. senator cooper. that is all. the chairman. thank you very much, dr. shaw. testimony of dr. charles francis gregory senator cooper. do you solemnly swear the testimony you are going to give to this commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? dr. gregory. i do. mr. specter. would you state your full name for the record, please? dr. gregory. doctor charles francis gregory. mr. specter. what is your profession, sir? dr. gregory. i am a physician and surgeon. mr. specter. would you outline your educational background briefly, please? dr. gregory. i received a bachelor of science degree from the university of indiana in , and an m.d. degree in medicine from the indiana university school of medicine in . following -year internship and a tour of duty in the u.s. navy, i undertook years of postgraduate training in orthopedic surgery at indiana university medical center. upon completing that training i became a member of the faculty at indiana university medical school, and remained so until november of , when i reentered the u.s. navy for another months. in i was appointed professor and then chairman of the division of orthopedic surgery at the university of texas southwestern medical school, where i presently am. mr. specter. are you certificated by the american board of orthopedic surgery? dr. gregory. i am, in . mr. specter. what experience, if any, have you had with bullet wounds, doctor? dr. gregory. beyond the rather indigenous nature of such wounds in the main teaching hospital at southwestern medical school, my experience has covered a tour of duty in the navy during world war ii, and a considerably more active period of time in the korean war in support of the st marine corps division. mr. specter. what is your best estimate as to the total number of bullet wounds you have had an opportunity to observe and treat? dr. gregory. i would estimate that i have dealt directly with approximately such wounds. mr. specter. are you a licensed doctor in the state of texas at the present time? dr. gregory. i am. mr. specter. what were your duties in a general way back on november , , with parkland hospital? dr. gregory. on that date, november , , i was seeing patients in the health service of the adjacent medical school building when about noon i was advised that the president of the united states had been admitted to parkland hospital due to gunshot injuries. i went immediately to the emergency room area of the parkland hospital, and upon gaining admission to the emergency room, i encountered the hospital superintendent. i inquired of him then as to whether or not the president had injuries which might require my attention and he indicated that they were not of that nature. i, therefore, took a number of unnecessary onlookers like myself from the emergency area in order to reduce the confusion, and i went to the fifth floor of the hospital, which is the orthopedic ward. and after attending a number of patients there, i prepared to leave the hospital, but stopped by the surgical suite on my way out, to check and see if any need for my services might have come up, and encountered there dr. shaw who indicated to me that governor connally had also been injured, and that these included injuries to his extremities for which i would be retained. mr. specter. did dr. shaw then call upon you to perform operative aid for governor connally? dr. gregory. he did. mr. specter. and when did you first see governor connally then? dr. gregory. i first saw governor connally after dr. shaw had prepared him and draped him for the surgical procedures which he carried out on the governor's chest. mr. specter. now, did you have any opportunity to observe the wound on the governor's chest? dr. gregory. i could see the wounds on the governor's chest, but i could see them only through the apertures available in the surgical drapes, and therefore i had difficulty orienting the exact positions of the wounds, except for the wound identified as the wound of exit which could be related to the nipple in the right chest which was exposed. mr. specter. now what did you observe with respect to the wound on the governor's wrist? dr. gregory. i did not have an opportunity to examine the wound on the governor's wrist until dr. shaw had completed his surgical treatment of the governor's chest wound. at that time he was turned to his back and it was possible to examine both the right upper extremity and the left lower extremity for wounds of the wrist and left thigh respectively. the right wrist was the site of a perforating wound, which by assumption began on a dorsal lateral surface. in lay terms this is the back of the hand on the thumb side at a point approximately centimeters above the wrist joint. there is a second wound presumed to be the wound of exit which lay in the midline of the wrist on its palmar surface about centimeters, something less than inch above the wrist crease, the most distal wrist crease. mr. specter. you say that the wound on the dorsal or back side of the wrist you assume to be the wound of entrance. what factors, if any, led you to that assumption? dr. gregory. i assumed it to be a wound of entrance because of the general ragged appearance of the wound, but for other reasons which i can delineate in a lighter description which came to light during the operative procedure and which are also hallmarked to a certain extent by the x-rays. mr. specter. would you proceed to tell us, even though it is out of sequence, what those factors, later determined to be, were which led you to assume that it was the wound of entrance? dr. gregory. yes. assuming that the wrist wound, which included a shattering fracture of the wrist bone, of the radial bone just above the wrist, was produced by a missile there were found in the vicinity of the wound two things which led me to believe that it passed from the dorsal or back side to the volar. the first of these---- mr. specter. when you say volar what do you mean by that? dr. gregory. the palm side. mr. specter. proceed. dr. gregory. the first of these was evidence of clothing, bits of thread and cloth, apparently from a dark suit or something of that sort which had been carried into the wound, from the skin into the region of the bone. the second of these were two or three small fragments of metal which presumably were shed by the missile after their encounter with the firm substance which is bone. mr. specter. as to the bits of cloth which you describe, have you had an opportunity earlier today to examine a coat, heretofore identified and marked by a picture bearing commission exhibit no. , which we will have later testimony on as being governor connally's coat? dr. gregory. i have. mr. specter. and what, if anything, did your examination disclose with respect to the wound of the right wrist? dr. gregory. well, the right sleeve of the coat has a tear in it close to the margin at a point which is, i think, commensurate with the location of the dorsal surface, the back side of the wrist, forearm where the two may have been superimposed and both damaged by the same penetrating body. mr. specter. is the nature of the material of the suit coat the same as that which you found in the wound of the wrist? dr. gregory. it is. as a matter of fact, at the time that the wound was treated, and the cloth was found, the speculation was made as to the kind of--the color of the suit the governor was wearing and moreover the thread was almost identifiable as mohair or raw silk or something of that nature and entirely consistent with this fabric. mr. specter. was the color, which you speculated about, the same as which you see in this jacket? dr. gregory. yes; it was my impression it was black or either dark blue. mr. specter. you say there was something in the x-ray work which led you to further conclude that that was the wound of entrance? dr. gregory. yes. mr. specter. will you proceed now to show the commission those x-rays, please? dr. gregory. this is an x-ray made in the lateral view of the governor's wrist at the time he was brought to the hospital prior to any surgical intervention. mr. specter. as to the first x-ray, dr. gregory, would you identify the date when it was taken? dr. gregory. yes; this film was made on november , , as indicated by a pencil marking on that film, and it further bears the assigned x-ray number of - , which was that of the patient, governor john connally. mr. specter. may it please the commission we shall reserve number and for later identification of those photographs and x-rays. senator cooper. so ordered. dr. gregory. if you will notice in addition to the apparent fracture of this, the radial bone here. mr. specter. are you now describing a second x-ray? dr. gregory. no; these are two taken at right angle of the governor's wrist prior to attention. these are diagnostic film, one made with the hand palm down and one with the hand turned °. mr. specter. do they bear identical numbers then? dr. gregory. they do. mr. specter. is there any mark on them at the present time which distinguishes them by way of marking or number? dr. gregory. other than the pencil markings on each of these two films and my own which i attached last evening for convenience. mr. specter. can you mark one of them as "a" and one as "b," so that when you describe them here we will know which you are referring to? dr. gregory. very well. let the record show that "a" stands for the anteroposterior view, exhibit no. , and "b" stands for the lateral view, exhibit no. , of the right wrist and forearm. "a" then demonstrates a comminuted fracture of the wrist with three fragments. mr. specter. what do you mean by comminuted? dr. gregory. comminuted refers to shattering, to break into more than two pieces, specifically many pieces, and if i may, i can point out there is a fragment here, a fragment here, a fragment here, a fragment here, and there are several smaller fragments lying in the center of these three larger ones. mr. specter. how many fragments are there in total, sir, in your opinion? dr. gregory. i would judge from this view that counting each isolated fragment there are fully seven or eight, and experience has taught that when these things are dismantled directly under direct vision that there very obviously may be more than that. mr. specter. will you continue to describe what that x-ray shows with respect to metallic fragments, if any? dr. gregory. three shadows are identified as representing metallic fragments. there are other light shadows in this film which are identified or interpreted as being artifacts. mr. specter. what is the basis of distinction between that which is an artifact and that which is a real shadow of the metallic substance? dr. gregory. a real shadow of metallic substance persist and be seen in other views, other x-ray copies, whereas artifacts which are produced by irregularities either in the film or film carrier will vary from one x-ray to another. mr. specter. is it your view that these other x-ray films led you to believe that those are, in fact, metallic substances? dr. gregory. as a matter of fact, it is the mate to this very film, the lateral view marked "b", which shows the same three fragments in essentially the same relationship to the various levels of the forearm that leads me to believe that these do, in fact, represent metallic fragments. mr. specter. will you describe as specifically as you can what those metallic fragments are by way of size and shape, sir? dr. gregory. i would identify these fragments as varying from five-tenths of a millimeter in diameter to approximately millimeters in diameter, and each fragment is no more than a half millimeter in thickness. they would represent in lay terms flakes, flakes of metal. mr. specter. what would your estimate be as to their weight in total? dr. gregory. i would estimate that they would be weighed in micrograms which is very small amount of weight. i don't know how to reduce it to ordinary equivalents for you. it is the kind of weighing that requires a microadjustable scale, which means that it is something less than the weight of a postage stamp. mr. specter. have you now described all the metallic substances which you observed either visually or through the x-rays in the governor's wrist? dr. gregory. these are the three metallic substance items which i saw. now if i may use these to indicate why i view the path as being from dorsal to volar, from the back of the wrist to the palm side, these have been shed on the volar side suggesting that contact with this bone resulted in there being flaked off, as the remainder of the missile emerged from the volar side leaving the small flakes behind. mr. specter. are the x-rays helpful in any other way in ascertaining the point of entry and the point of exit? dr. gregory. there is a suggestion to be seen in exhibit b, the lateral view, a suggestion of the pathway as seen by distortion of soft tissues. this has become a bit irregular on the dorsal side. there is evidence of air in the tissues on this side suggesting that the pathway was something like this. mr. specter. and when you say indications of air on which side did you mean by "this side," doctor? dr. gregory. air distally on the volar side. there is some evidence of air in the tissue on the volar side too but they are at different levels and this suggests that they gained access to the tissue plans in this fashion. mr. specter. would you elaborate on just what do you mean by "this fashion," indicating the distinctions on the level of the air which suggest that conclusion to you? dr. gregory. recall that i suggested that the wound of entrance, certainly the dorsal wound lay some distance, cm. above the wrist joint, approximately here, that the second wound considered to be the wound of exit was only cm. above this point, making the pathway an oblique one. mr. dulles. would you show that on your own wrist? dr. gregory. yes. mr. dulles. we have to explain this a little for the record but i think it would be very useful. dr. gregory. i think you will have an opportunity to see the real thing a little later if the governor makes his appearance here. but the wound of entry i considered to be, although on his right hand, of course, to be approximately at this point on the wrist, and the wound of exit here, which is about the right level for my coat sleeve held at a casual position. mr. specter. let the record show you made two red marks on your wrist, which are in the same position as that which you have described heretofore in technical language. dr. gregory. yes. mr. specter. had you finished the complete explanation on the indicator from the air levels which you had mentioned before? dr. gregory. yes. the air is a little bit more visible to the dorsal surface, closer to the skin here, not so close down at the lower portion, not so much tissue destruction had occurred at the point of the emergence. mr. specter. before proceeding to the other factors indicating point of entry and point of exit, dr. gregory, i call your attention to commission exhibit no. , which is a bullet and ask you first if you have had an opportunity to examine that earlier today? dr. gregory. i have. mr. specter. what opinion, if any, do you have as to whether that bullet could have produced the wound on the governor's right wrist and remained as intact as it is at the present time? dr. gregory. in examining this bullet, i find a small flake has been either knocked off or removed from the rounded end of the missile. (at this point representative boggs entered the room.) i was told that this was removed for the purpose of analysis. the only other deformity which i find is at the base of the missile at the point where it joined the cartridge carrying the powder, i presume, and this is somewhat flattened and deflected, distorted. there is some irregularity of the darker metal within which i presume to represent lead. the only way that this missile could have produced this wound in my view, was to have entered the wrist backward. now, this is not inconsistent with one of the characteristics known for missiles which is to tumble. all missiles in flight have two motions normally, a linear motion from the muzzle of the gun to the target, a second motion which is a spinning motion having to do with maintaining the integrity of the initial linear direction, but if they strike an object they may be caused to turn in their path and tumble end over, and if they do, they tend to produce a greater amount of destruction within the strike time or the target, and they could possibly, if tumbling in air upon emergence, tumble into another target backward. that is the only possible explanation i could offer to correlate this missile with this particular wound. mr. specter. is there sufficient metallic substance missing from the back or rear end of that bullet to account for the metallic substance which you have described in the governor's wrist? dr. gregory. it is possible but i don't know enough about the structure of bullets or this one in particular, to know what is a normal complement of lead or for this particular missile. it is irregular, but how much it may have lost, i have no idea. mr. dulles. would the nature of the entry wound give you any indication as to whether it entered backward or whether it entered forward? dr. gregory. my initial impression was that whatever produced the wound of the wrist was an irregular object, certainly not smooth nosed as the business end of this particular bullet is because of two things. the size of the wound of entrance, and the fact that it is irregular surfaced permitted it to pick up organic debris, materials, threads, and carry them into the wound with it. now, you will note that dr. shaw earlier in his testimony and in all of my conversations with him, never did indicate that there was any such loss of material into the wrist, nor does the back of this coat which i have examined show that it lost significant amounts of cloth but i think the tear in this coat sleeve does imply that there were bits of fabric lost, and i think those were resident in the wrist. i think we recovered them. mr. specter. is the back of that bullet characteristic of an irregular missile so as to cause the wound in the wrist? dr. gregory. i would say that the back of this being flat and having sharp edges is irregular, and would possibly tend to tear tissues more than does an inclined plane such as this. mr. specter. would the back of the missile be sufficiently irregular to have caused the wound of the right wrist, in your opinion? dr. gregory. i think it could have; yes. it is possible. mr. specter. would it be consistent with your observations of the wrist for that missile to have penetrated and gone through the right wrist? dr. gregory. it is possible; yes. it appears to me since the wound of exit was a small laceration, that much of the energy of the missile that struck the governor's wrist was expended in breaking the bone reducing its velocity sufficient so that while it could make an emergence through the underlying soft tissues on his wrist, it did not do great damage to them. mr. specter. is there any indication from the extent of the damage to the wrist whether the bullet was pristine, that is: was the wrist struck first in flight or whether there had been some reduction in the velocity of the missile prior to striking the wrist? dr. gregory. i would offer this opinion about a high velocity rifle bullet striking a forearm. mr. specter. permit me to inject factors which we have not put on the record although it has been brought to your attention previously: assume this is a . -millimeter missile which was shot from a rifle having a muzzle velocity of approximately , feet per second, with a distance of approximately to feet between the weapon and the victim; and answer the prior question, if you would, dr. gregory, with those factors in mind? dr. gregory. i would fully expect the first object struck by that missile to be very badly damaged, and especially if it were a rigid bone such as the wrist bone is, to literally blow it apart. i have had some experience with rifle wound injuries of the forearm produced by this type of missile, and the last two which i attended myself have culminated in amputation of the limb because of the extensive damage produced by the missile as it passed through the arm. considerably more than was evidenced in the governor's case either by examination of the limb itself or an examination of these x-rays. mr. specter. now, as to the experience you had which you experienced which resulted in amputations, what was the range between the weapon and the victim's limb, if you know? dr. gregory. the range in those two instances, i concede was considerably shorter but i cannot give you the specific range. by short i mean perhaps no more than or yards at the most. mr. specter. would the difference between the or yards and the to feet make any difference in your opinion, though, as to the damage which would be inflicted on the wrist had that bullet struck it as the first point of impact? dr. gregory. no, sir; i don't think it would have made that much difference. mr. specter. do you know what the color was of the fragments in the wrist of the governor, dr. gregory? dr. gregory. as i recall them they were lead colored, silvery, of that color. i did not recall them as being either brass or copper. mr. specter. are there any other x-rays of the governor's wrist which would aid the commission in its understanding of the injuries to the wrist? dr. gregory. only to indicate that there were two fragments of metal retrieved in the course of dealing with this wound surgically. for the subsequent x-rays of the same area, after the initial surgery indicate that those fragments are no longer there. and as i stated, i thought i had retrieved two of them. the major one or ones now being missing. the small one related to the bone or most closely related to the bone, and i will put back up here---- mr. specter. on the new x-rays which you put up, would you identify them first by indicating the date the x-ray was taken? dr. gregory. yes; the date of the x-ray is the same, november , , and they may be identified as exhibit "c" anteroposterior view postoperative, which is this one. mr. specter. did they bear the same numbers, dr. gregory? dr. gregory. they will bear the same numbers; yes. mr. dulles. i think you had better get them marked. we haven't got them marked yet "a," "b," and "c." representative boggs. postoperative, these are after the operation? dr. gregory. these two. this one was made before the wound was dealt with. mr. specter. which one? dr. gregory. "a" is the one made before the wound was dealt with surgically. senator cooper. could you mark it "a," "b," "c," and "d," doctor? mr. mccloy. is that "b," we have had another "b" here, you know? dr. gregory. this is "c." "a" and "c" are comparable x-rays, one made before and one made after the operation was carried out. before the operation, you will note a large fragment of metal visible here, not visible in this one. you will also note a small satellite fragment not visible here. a second piece of metal visible preoperatively is still present postoperatively. no effort incidentally is made to dissect for these fragments. they are small, they are proverbial needles in hay stacks, and we know from experience that small flakes of metal of this kind do not ordinarily produce difficulty in the future, but that the extensive dissection required to find them may produce such consequences and so we choose to leave them inside unless we chance upon them, and on this occasion, those bits of metal recovered were simply found by chance in the course of removing necrotized material. other than that the x-rays have nothing more to offer so far as the wrist is concerned. mr. specter. may we then reserve for "c" and for "d"? dr. gregory. i will put the other marks on these. senator cooper. so ordered. dr. gregory. for your convenience. mr. dulles. was the wound of exit in the wrist also jagged like the wound of entry or was there, what differences were there between the wound of entry and the wound of exit? dr. gregory. the wound of exit was disposed transversely across the wrist exactly as i have it marked here. it was in the nature of a small laceration, perhaps a centimeter and a half in length, about a half an inch long, and it lay in the skin creases so that as you examined the wrist casually it was a very innocent looking thing indeed, and it was not until it was probed that its true nature in connection with the remainder of the wound was evident. senator russell. when did you first see this bullet, doctor, the one you have just described in your testimony? dr. gregory. this bullet? senator russell. yes. dr. gregory. this morning, sir. senator russell. you had never seen it until this morning? dr. gregory. i had never seen it before this time. mr. specter. dr. gregory, what was then the relative size of the wounds on the back and front side of the wrist itself? dr. gregory. as i recall them, the wound dimensions would be so far as the wound on the back of the wrist is concerned about a half a centimeter by two and a half centimeters in length. it was rather linear in nature. the upper end of it having apparently lost some tissue was gapping more than the lower portion of it. mr. specter. how about on the volar or front side of the wrist? dr. gregory. the volar surface or palmar surface had a wound disclosed transversely about a half centimeter in length and about centimeters above the flexion crease to the wrist. mr. specter. then the wound on the dorsal or back side of the wrist was a little larger than the wound on the volar or palm side of the wrist? dr. gregory. yes; it was. mr. specter. and is that characteristic in terms of entry and exit wounds? dr. gregory. it is not at all characteristic of the entry wound of a pristine missile which tends to make a small wound of entrance and larger wound of exit. mr. specter. is it, however, characteristic of a missile which has had its velocity substantially decreased? dr. gregory. i don't think that the exchange in the velocity will alter the nature of the wound of entrance or exit excepting that if the velocity is low enough the missile may simply manage to emerge or may not emerge at all on the far side of the limb which has been struck. mr. dulles. would this be consistent with a tumbling bullet or a bullet that had already tumbled and therefore entered back side too? dr. gregory. the wound of entrance is characteristic in my view of an irregular missile in this case, an irregular missile which has tipped itself off as being irregular by the nature of itself. mr. dulles. what do you mean by irregular? dr. gregory. i mean one that has been distorted. it is in some way angular, it has edges or sharp edges or something of this sort. it is not rounded or pointed in the fashion of an ordinary missile. the irregularity of it also, i submit, tends to pick up organic material and carry it into the limb, and this is a very significant takeoff, in my opinion. mr. specter. have you now described all of the characteristics on the governor's wrist which indicate either the point of entry or the point of exit? dr. gregory. there is one additional piece of information that is of pertinence but i don't know how effectively it can be applied to the nature of the missile. that is the fact that dorsal branch of the radial nerve, a sensory nerve in this immediate vicinity was partially transected together with one tendon leading to the thumb, which was totally transected. this could have been produced by a missile entering in the ordinary fashion, undisturbed, undistorted. but again it is more in keeping with an irregular surface which would tend to catch and tear a structure rather than push it aside. mr. specter. would that then also indicate the wound of entrance where that striking took place? dr. gregory. i believe it is more in keeping with it, yes. mr. specter. as to the thigh wound, what, if anything, did you observe as to a wound on the thigh, dr. gregory? dr. gregory. i was apprised that the governor had a wound of the thigh, and i did examine it immediately the limb was available for it after dr. shaw had completed the surgery. the wound was located on the inner aspect of the thigh, a little to the front surface about a third of the way up from the knee. the wound appeared to me to be rounded, almost a puncture type of wound in dimension about equal to a pencil eraser, about mm. i suspected that there might be a missile buried here and so an x-ray was obtained of that limb, and---- mr. specter. have you brought the x-ray with you? dr. gregory. yes; i have. mr. specter. on what date was that x-ray taken? dr. gregory. this x-ray is marked as having been taken on november , . it indicates that it was made of the left thigh, and it belongs to john connally, john g. connally. mr. specter. that says "g" instead of "c"? dr. gregory. yes. it appears to me to be a "g." the number again is - . mr. specter. is that the same number as the other x-rays bear? dr. gregory. i believe it is, yes. mr. specter. may we reserve then commission exhibit no. for that x-ray? senator cooper. it may be so done. dr. gregory. there are a series of these films. would you like them marked subsequently "e", "f," and "g"? mr. specter. insofar as you feel they are helpful in characterizing the wounds, do mark them in that way. dr. gregory. all right. this i understand is exhibit e, then and it is a single x-ray made on the anterior posterial view of mr. connally's thigh. the only thing found is a very small fleck of metal marked with an arrow here. it is that small, and almost likely to be overlooked. this was not consonant with the kind of wound on the medial aspect of his thigh. our next natural assumption was that that missile having escaped from the thigh had escaped the confines of this x-ray and lay somewhere else. so that additional x-rays were made of the same date and i submit two additional x-rays identified again as belonging to john g. connally, the left lower extremity, november , , and these two are numbered - , and they are an anterial posterior view which i will mark "f," and a lateral view which i will mark "g." mr. specter. may we reserve for "f," and for "g"? senator cooper. so ordered. dr. gregory. careful examination of this set of x-rays illustrated or demonstrates, i should say, a number of artificial lines, this is one and there is one. these lines i think represent rather hurried development of these films for they were taken under emergency conditions. they were intended simply to let us know if there was another missile in the governor's limb where it might be located. the only missile turned up is the same one seen in the original film which lies directly opposite the area indicated as the site of the missile wound or the wound in the thigh, but a fragment of metal, again microscopic measuring about five-tenths of a millimeter by millimeters, lies just beneath the skin, about a half inch on the medial aspect of the thigh. mr. specter. what is your best estimate of the weight of that metallic fragment? dr. gregory. this again would be in micrograms, postage stamp weight thereabouts, not much more than that. mr. specter. could that fragment, in your opinion, have caused the wound which you observed in the governor's left thigh? dr. gregory. i do not believe it could have. the nature of the wound in the left thigh was such that so small a fragment as this would not have produced it and still have gone no further into the soft tissues than it did. mr. specter. would the wound that you observed in the soft tissue of the left thigh be consistent with having been made by a bullet such as that identified as commission exhibit ? dr. gregory. i think again that bullet, exhibit , could very well have struck the thigh in a reverse fashion and have shed a bit of its lead core into the fascia immediately beneath the skin, yet never have penetrated the thigh sufficiently so that it eventually was dislodged and was found in the clothing. i would like to add to that we were disconcerted by not finding a missile at all. here was our patient with three discernible wounds, and no missile within him of sufficient magnitude to account for them, and we suggested that someone ought to search his belongings and other areas where he had been to see if it could be identified or found, rather. mr. specter. had the missile gone through his wrist in reverse, would it likely have continued in that same course until it reached his thigh, in your opinion? dr. gregory. the missile that struck his wrist had sufficient energy left after it passed through the radius to emerge from the soft tissues on the under surface of the skin. it could have had enough to partially enter his thigh, but not completely. mr. specter. in the way which his thigh was wounded? dr. gregory. i believe so; yes. mr. specter. what did you do, dr. gregory, with the missile fragments which you removed from his wrists? dr. gregory. those were turned over to the operating room nurse in attendance with instructions that they should be presented to the appropriate authorities present, probably a member of the texas rangers, but that is as far as i went with it myself. mr. specter. i now show you a part of a document heretofore identified as commission exhibit , a two-page report which bears your name on the second page, and i ask you if this is the report you made of the operation on governor connally? dr. gregory. it appears to be the same; yes. mr. specter. are the facts set forth therein true and correct? dr. gregory. in essence they are true and correct; yes. mr. specter. dr. gregory, does that report show the name of the nurse to whom you turned over the metallic fragments? dr. gregory. there are two nurses who are identified on this page. one is the scrub nurse, miss rutherford, and the second is the circulating nurse, mrs. schrader. mr. specter. and is one or the other the nurse to whom you turned over the metallic fragments? dr. gregory. i do not remember precisely to whom i handed them. i do not know. mr. specter. i now hand you a document marked commission exhibit no. , which dr. shaw used to identify the wounds on the governor's back, and i ask you to note whether these documents accurately depict the place and the identity of the entry and exit wounds. dr. gregory. they do not in that, though the location of the wounds on the forearm is correct, and the dimensions, it is my opinion that entrance and exit terms have been reversed. mr. specter. would you delete the inaccurate statement and insert the accurate statement with your initials by the side of the changes, please? will you now describe the operative procedures---- mr. dulles. could i ask one question that relates, i think, to your question. assuming that the wrist wound and the thigh wound were caused by the same bullet, would you agree that the approximate trajectory is as indicated in this chart where dr. shaw has drawn a trajectory that he assumed taking into account three bullets instead of two? i am only asking you about the two wounds, namely the wrist and the thigh. dr. gregory. it would strike me, sir, that the trajectory to the wrist and the subsequent wound of the thigh could be lined up easily in a sitting position. now, those two could probably be lined up with a trajectory of the wound in the chest as well, but this would require a more precise positioning of the individual. mr. dulles. but do you agree in general, taking the two wounds with which you are particularly familiar, that that would have been the trajectory as between the wrist and the thigh as drawn on that chart? dr. gregory. yes, essentially so; yes, sir. mr. specter. for the record, how was that chart identified. doctor? dr. gregory. this is identified as commission exhibit . mr. specter. would you outline briefly the operative procedures which you performed on the governor, please? dr. gregory. yes. the wound on the dorsum of the governor's wrist was treated by debridement, which means to remove by sharp surgical excision all contaminated tissues and those which are presumed to have been rendered nonviable by force. this meant removing a certain amount of skin, subcutaneous tissue, fat, and all of the particles of clothing, threads of cloth, which we could identify; and, incidentally, a bit of metal or two. that wound was subsequently left open; in other words, we did not suture it or sew it together. this is done in deference to potential infection which we know often to be associated with retained organic material such as cloth. the wound on the volar surface or the palmar side of his wrist was enlarged. the purpose in enlarging it was an uncertainty as to the condition of the major nerves in the volar side of the wrist, and so these nerves were identified and explored and found to be intact, as were adjacent tendons. so that that wound was then sutured, closed. after this, the fracture was manipulated into a hopefully respectable position of the fragments, and a cast was applied, and some traction, using rubber bands, was applied to the finger and the thumb in order to better hold the fracture fragments in their reduced or repositioned state. mr. specter. dr. gregory, could all of the rounds which were inflicted on the governor, that is, those described by dr. shaw, and those which you have described during your testimony, have been inflicted from one missile if that missile were a . millimeter bullet fired from a weapon having a muzzle velocity of approximately , feet per second at a distance of approximately to feet, if you assumed a trajectory with an angle of decline approximately degrees? dr. gregory. i believe that the three wounds could have occurred from a single missile under these specifications. mr. specter. assume, if you will, another set of hypothetical circumstances: that the . millimeter bullet traveling at the same muzzle velocity, to wit, , feet per second, at approximately feet between the weapon and the victim, struck the president in the back of the neck passing through the large strap muscles, going through a fascia channel, missing the pleural cavity, striking no bones and emerging from the lower anterior third of the neck, after striking the trachea. could such a projectile have then passed into the governor's back and inflicted all three or all of the wounds which have been described here today? dr. gregory. i believe one would have to concede the possibility, but i believe firmly that the probability is much diminished. mr. specter. why do you say that, sir? dr. gregory. i think that to pass through the soft tissues of the president would certainly have decelerated the missile to some extent. having then struck the governor and shattered a rib, it is further decelerated, yet it has presumably retained sufficient energy to smash a radius. moreover, it escaped the forearm to penetrate at least the skin and fascia of the thigh, and i am not persuaded that this is very probable. i would have to yield to possibility. i am sure that those who deal with ballistics can do better for you than i can in this regard. mr. specter. what would your assessment of the likelihood be for a bullet under those hypothetical circumstances to have passed through the neck of the president and to have passed through only the chest of the governor without having gone through either the wrist or into the thigh? dr. gregory. i think that is a much more plausible possibility or probability. mr. specter. how about the likelihood of passing through the president and through the governor's chest, but missing his wrist and passing into his thigh? dr. gregory. that, too, is plausible, i believe. mr. specter. are there any other circumstances of this event which have been related to you, including the striking of the president's head by a third bullet, which would account in any way, under any possibility, in your view, for the fracture of the right wrist which was apparently caused by a missile? dr. gregory. may i refer to this morning's discussions? mr. specter. yes, please do. dr. gregory. this morning i was shown two additional missiles or portions of missiles which are rather grossly distorted. mr. specter. let me make those a part of the record here, and ask if those are the missiles which have heretofore been identified as commission exhibit and commission exhibit . dr. gregory. these items represent distorted bits of a missile, a jacket in one case, and part of a jacket and a lead core in the other. these are missiles having the characteristics which i mentioned earlier, which tend to carry organic debris into wounds and tend to create irregular wounds of entry. one of these, it seems to me, could conceivably have produced the injury which the governor incurred in his wrist. mr. dulles. in his wrist? dr. gregory. yes. mr. dulles. and in his thigh? dr. gregory. i don't know about that, sir. it is possible. but the rather remarkably round nature of the wound in the thigh leads me to believe that it was produced by something like the butt end of an intact missile. mr. specter. i now hand you an exhibit heretofore identified as commission exhibit , which depicts the artist's drawing of the passage of a bullet through the president's head, and i ask you, first of all, if you have had an opportunity to observe that prior to this moment? dr. gregory. yes. i saw this illustration this morning. mr. specter. well, if you assume that the trajectory through the president's head was represented by the path of a . -mm. bullet which fragmented upon striking the skull, both the rear and again the top, is it possible that a fragment coming at the rate of , feet per second from the distance of approximately to feet, could have produced a fragment which then proceeded to strike the governor's wrist and inflict the damage which you have heretofore described? dr. gregory. i think it is plausible that the bullet, having struck the president's head, may have broken into more than one fragment. i think you apprised me of the fact that it did, in fact, disperse into a number of fragments, and they took tangential directions from the original path apparently. mr. specter. assuming the fact that the autopsy surgeon presented for the record a statement that the fragments moved forward into the vicinity of the president's right eye, as the diagram shows, that there were approximately star-like fragments running on a line through the head on the trajectory, and that there was substantial fragmentation of the bullet as it passed through the head, what is your view about that? dr. gregory. i think it is possible that a fragment from that particular missile may have escaped and struck the governor's right arm. mr. specter. did you have an opportunity to observe the slides and films commonly referred to as the zapruder film this morning? dr. gregory. yes; i saw those this morning. mr. specter. did they shed any light on the conclusions--as to your conclusions with respect to the wounds of the governor and what you observed in the treatment of the governor? dr. gregory. yes, to this extent. it seemed to me in frames marked , , and , governor connally was in a position such that a single missile entered his back, could have passed through his chest, through his right forearm, and struck his thigh. that is a possibility. i looked at the film very carefully to see if i could relate the position of governor connally's right arm to the movement when the missile struck the president's head, presumably the third missile, and i think that the record will show that those are obscured to a degree that the governor's right arm cannot be seen. in the governor's own words, he did not realize his right arm had been injured, and he has no idea when it was struck. this is historical fact to us at the time of the initial interview with him. mr. dulles. could i ask just one question? if a bullet had merely struck the governor's arm without previously having struck anything else, is it conceivable that impediment of the bone that it hit there would be consistent with merely a flesh wound on the thigh? do you follow me? dr. gregory. yes; i follow you. i would doubt it on the basis of the kind of wound that the governor has. now the kind of wound in the governor's right forearm is the kind that indicates there was not an excessive amount of energy expended there, which means either that the missile producing it had dissipated much of its energy, either that or there was an impediment to it someplace else along the way. it is simply that there was not enough energy loss there, and one would expect a soft tissue injury beyond that point to be of considerably greater magnitude. mr. specter. dr. gregory, did i take your deposition back on march , , at parkland hospital? dr. gregory. yes; you did. mr. specter. have you had an opportunity to review that deposition prior to today? dr. gregory. yes; i have looked it over. mr. specter. do you have anything to add, dr. gregory, that you think would be helpful to the commission in any way? dr. gregory. no, sir; i do not. mr. dulles. are you in agreement with the deposition as given? dr. gregory. yes. i don't think there are any--there is any need to change any of the essence of the deposition. there are a few typographical errors and word changes one might make, but the essence is essentially as i gave it. mr. specter. i have no further questions, sir. senator cooper. i would just ask this question. in your long experience of treating wounds, you said some wounds caused by bullets, have you acquired, through that, knowledge of ballistics and characteristics of bullets? dr. gregory. within a very limited sphere. senator cooper. i know your testimony indicates that. dr. gregory. i have been concerned with the behavior of missiles in contact with tissues, but i am not very knowledgeable about the design of a missile nor how many grains of powder there are behind it. my concern was with the dissipation of the energy which it carries and the havoc that it wreaks when it goes off. senator cooper. you derived that knowledge from your actual study of wounds and their treatment? dr. gregory. study of wounds together with what i have read from the army proving grounds, various centers, for exploring this kind of thing. i don't own a gun myself. mr. mccloy. you are from texas and you do not own a gun? dr. gregory. well, sir, i went from indiana to texas. my father gave me a . shotgun, but he took it away from me shortly after he gave it to me. the chairman. doctor, thank you very much. dr. gregory. thank you very much, sir, mr. chief justice. (a short recess was taken.) the chairman. governor, the commission will come to order, please. testimony of gov. john bowden connally, jr. governor, this commission has met today for the purpose of taking the testimony of you and mrs. connally concerning the sad affair that you were part of. if you will raise your right hand, please, and be sworn. do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? governor connally. i do. the chairman. you may be seated, governor. mr. specter will conduct the examination. mr. specter. will you state your full name for the record, please? governor connally. john bowden connally. mr. specter. what is your official position with the state of texas, sir? governor connally. i am now governor of the state of texas. mr. specter. did you have occasion to be in the automobile which carried president john f. kennedy through dallas, tex., back on november , . governor connally. yes, sir; i did. mr. specter. will you outline briefly, please, the circumstances leading up to the president's planning a trip to texas in november of last year? governor connally. you want to go back to--how far back do you want to go, a few days immediately prior to the trip or a month before, or all of the circumstances surrounding it? mr. specter. well, just a very brief picture leading up to the trip, governor, starting with whatever point you think would be most appropriate to give some outline of the origin of the trip. governor connally. well, it had been thought that he should come to texas for a period of many months, as a matter of fact. there was some thought given to it during . the trip kept being delayed. finally in the fall of it was decided that he definitely should come, or should come in the fall of last year as opposed to waiting until this year, when his appearance might have more political overtones. so i came up, i have forgotten the exact date, around the middle of october and talked to him about it, discussed the details, asked him what he would like to do. he said he would like to do whatever he could do that was agreeable with me; it was agreeable with me that he more or less trust me to plan the trip for him, to tell him where he would like to go. about that time some thought was being given to having four fundraising dinners. his attitude on that was he wouldn't prefer that. he felt that the appearances would not be too good, that he would much prefer to have one if we were going to have any. i told him this was entirely consistent with my own thoughts. we ought not to have more than one fundraising dinner. if we did, it ought to be in austin. if we could do it, i would like for him to see and get into as many areas of the state as possible while he was there. he, on his own, had made a commitment to go to the dinner for congressman albert thomas, which was being given the night of the st in houston, so shortly, really before he got there, and when i say shortly i would say weeks before he came, the plans were altered a little bit in that he landed originally in san antonio in the afternoon about : of the afternoon of the st. from there we went to houston, attended the thomas dinner that night at about o'clock. after that we flew to fort worth, spent the night at the texas hotel, had a breakfast there the next morning, and left about o'clock, : , for the flight over to dallas. mr. specter. in what vehicle did you fly from fort worth to dallas? governor connally. in air force . mr. specter. and approximately what time did you arrive at love field, tex. governor connally. i would say about : , : , shortly before noon. i believe the luncheon was planned for : , and we were running on schedule. i believe it was : . mr. specter. would you describe for us briefly the ceremonies at love field on the arrival of the president? governor connally. well, we, as usual, the president had a receiving line there. i conducted mrs. kennedy through the receiving line and introduced her to about or people who were there as an official welcoming committee. the president came right behind, was introduced to them, and then he and mrs. kennedy both went over to the railing and spoke to a number of people who were standing around, who visited for or minutes, and then we got into the car as we had customarily done at each of the stops, and mrs. connally and i got on the jump seats, and with the president and mrs. kennedy on the back seat, and took off for the long motorcade downtown. mr. specter. i will now hand you a photograph which i have marked "commission exhibit ," governor connally, and ask you if that accurately depicts the occupants of the car as you were starting that motorcade trip through dallas? governor connally. yes; it does. mr. specter. do you know the identities of the men who are riding in the front seat of the car? governor connally. yes. roy kellerman is on the right front. he is a secret service agent, and bill--i can't remember the other's name---- mr. specter. greer. i hand you another photograph here, governor, marked as "commission exhibit ," and ask you if that is a picture of the president's automobile during its ride through the downtown area of dallas? governor connally. yes; i assume it is. this is certainly the president's automobile, and this is the precise position that each of us occupied in the ride through dallas. it was the same position, and could be a photograph, of any number of places that we went. but i was seated in the jump seat immediately in front of him, and mrs. connally was seated immediately in front of mrs. kennedy in the jump seat, and roy kellerman was immediately in front of me. mr. specter. mr. chief justice, may i move at this time the admission into evidence of exhibits and ? the chairman. they may be admitted. (the items marked commission exhibits nos. and were received in evidence.) mr. specter. what was the relative height of the jump seats, governor, with respect to the seat of the president and mrs. kennedy immediately to your rear? governor connally. they were somewhat lower. the back seat of that particular lincoln limousine, which is a specially designed and built automobile, as you know, for the president of the united states, has an adjustable back seat. it can be lowered or raised. i would say the back seat was approximately inches higher than the jump seats on which mrs. connally and i sat. mr. specter. do you know for certain whether or not the movable back seat was elevated at the time? governor connally. no; i could not be sure of it, although i know there were--there was a time or two when he did elevate it, and i think beyond question on most of the ride in san antonio, fort worth, houston, and dallas, it was elevated. for a while--the reason i know is--i sat on the back seat with him during part of the ride, particularly in san antonio, not in dallas, but in san antonio. the wind was blowing, and we were traveling fairly fast, and mrs. kennedy preferred to sit on the jump seat, and i was sitting on the back seat part of the time, and the seat was elevated, and i think it was on substantially all the trip. mr. specter. was the portion elevated, that where only the president sat? governor connally. no; the entire back seat. mr. specter. describe in a general way the size and reaction of the crowd on the motorcade route, if you would, please, governor? governor connally. when we got into dallas, there was quite a large crowd at the airport to greet their president, i would say several thousand people. part way downtown, in the thinly populated areas of dallas, where we traveled, the crowds were not thick and were somewhat restrained in their reaction. by restrained, i mean they were not wildly enthusiastic, but they were grown people. there was a mature crowd as we went through some of the residential areas. they applauded and they were obviously very friendly in their conduct. but as we, of course, approached downtown, the downtown area of dallas, going down the main street, the crowds were tremendous. they were stacked from the curb and even outside the curb, back against the back walls. it was a huge crowd. i would estimate there were , people that had lined the streets that day as we went down. the further you went the more enthusiastic the response was, and the reception. it was a tremendous reception, to the point where just as we turned on houston street off of main, and turned on houston, down by the courthouse, mrs. connally remarked to the president, "well, mr. president, you can't say there aren't some people in dallas who love you." and the president replied, "that is very obvious," or words to that effect. so i would say the reception that he got in dallas was equal to, if not more, enthusiastic than those he had received in fort worth, san antonio, and houston. mr. specter. are there any other conversations which stand out in your mind on the portion of the motorcade trip through dallas itself? governor connally. no; actually we had more or less desultory conversation as we rode along. the crowds were thick all the way down on both sides, and all of us were, particularly the president and mrs. kennedy were, acknowledging the crowds. they would turn frequently, smiling, waving to the people, and the opportunity for conversation was limited. so there was no particularly significant conversation or conversations which took place. it was, as i say, pretty desultory conversation. mr. specter. did the automobile stop at any point during this procession? governor connally. yes; it did. there were at least two occasions on which the automobile stopped in dallas and, perhaps, a third. there was one little girl, i believe it was, who was carrying a sign saying, "mr. president, will you please stop and shake hands with me," or some that was the import of the sign, and he just told the driver to stop, and he did stop and shook hands, and, of course, he was immediately mobbed by a bunch of youngsters, and the secret service men from the car following us had to immediately come up and wedge themselves in between the crowd and the car to keep them back away from the automobile, and it was a very short stop. at another point along the route, a sister, a catholic nun, was there, obviously from a catholic school, with a bunch of little children, and he stopped and spoke to her and to the children; and i think there was one other stop on the way downtown, but i don't recall the precise occasion. but i know there were two, but i think there was still another one. mr. specter. are there any other events prior to the time of the shooting itself which stand out in your mind on the motorcade trip through dallas? governor connally. no; not that have any particular significance. mr. specter. as to the comment which mrs. connally had made to president kennedy which you just described, where on the motor trip was that comment made, if you recall? governor connally. this was just before we turned on elm street, after we turned off of main. mr. specter. onto houston? governor connally. onto houston, right by the courthouse before we turned left onto elm street, almost at the end of the motorcade, and almost, i would say, perhaps a minute before the fatal shooting. mr. specter. what was the condition of the crowd at that juncture of the motorcade, sir? governor connally. at that particular juncture, when she made this remark, the crowd was still very thick and very enthusiastic. it began to thin immediately after we turned onto elm street. we could look ahead and see that the crowd was beginning to thin along the banks, just east, i guess of the overpass. mr. specter. was there any difficulty in hearing such a conversational comment? governor connally. no, no; we could talk without any, and hear very clearly, without any difficulty, without any particular strain. we didn't do it again because in trying to carry on a conversation it would be apparent to those who were the spectators on the sidewalk, and we didn't want to leave the impression we were not interested in them, and so we just didn't carry on a conversation, but we could do so without any trouble. mr. specter. as the automobile turned left onto elm from houston, what did occur there, governor? governor connally. we had--we had gone, i guess, feet, maybe feet, i don't recall how far it was, heading down to get on the freeway, the stemmons freeway, to go out to the hall where we were going to have lunch and, as i say, the crowds had begun to thin, and we could--i was anticipating that we were going to be at the hall in approximately minutes from the time we turned on elm street. we had just made the turn, well, when i heard what i thought was a shot. i heard this noise which i immediately took to be a rifle shot. i instinctively turned to my right because the sound appeared to come from over my right shoulder, so i turned to look back over my right shoulder, and i saw nothing unusual except just people in the crowd, but i did not catch the president in the corner of my eye, and i was interested, because once i heard the shot in my own mind i identified it as a rifle shot, and i immediately--the only thought that crossed my mind was that this is an assassination attempt. so i looked, failing to see him, i was turning to look back over my left shoulder into the back seat, but i never got that far in my turn. i got about in the position i am in now facing you, looking a little bit to the left of center, and then i felt like someone had hit me in the back. mr. specter. what is the best estimate that you have as to the time span between the sound of the first shot and the feeling of someone hitting you in the back which you just described? governor connally. a very, very brief span of time. again my trend of thought just happened to be, i suppose along this line, i immediately thought that this--that i had been shot. i knew it when i just looked down and i was covered with blood, and the thought immediately passed through my mind that there were either two or three people involved or more in this or someone was shooting with an automatic rifle. these were just thoughts that went through my mind because of the rapidity of these two, of the first shot plus the blow that i took, and i knew i had been hit, and i immediately assumed, because of the amount of blood, and, in fact, that it had obviously passed through my chest, that i had probably been fatally hit. so i merely doubled up, and then turned to my right again and began to--i just sat there, and mrs. connally pulled me over to her lap. she was sitting, of course, on the jump seat, so i reclined with my head in her lap, conscious all the time, and with my eyes open; and then, of course, the third shot sounded, and i heard the shot very clearly. i heard it hit him. i heard the shot hit something, and i assumed again--it never entered my mind that it ever hit anybody but the president. i heard it hit. it was a very loud noise, just that audible, very clear. immediately i could see on my clothes, my clothing, i could see on the interior of the car which, as i recall, was a pale blue, brain tissue, which i immediately recognized, and i recall very well, on my trousers there was one chunk of brain tissue as big as almost my thumb, thumbnail, and again i did not see the president at any time either after the first, second, or third shots, but i assumed always that it was he who was hit and no one else. i immediately, when i was hit, i said, "oh, no, no, no." and then i said, "my god, they are going to kill us all." nellie, when she pulled me over into her lap---- mr. specter. nellie is mrs. connally? governor connally. mrs. connally. when she pulled me over into her lap, she could tell i was still breathing and moving, and she said, "don't worry. be quiet. you are going to be all right." she just kept telling me i was going to be all right. after the third shot, and i heard roy kellerman tell the driver, "bill, get out of line." and then i saw him move, and i assumed he was moving a button or something on the panel of the automobile, and he said, "get us to a hospital quick." i assumed he was saying this to the patrolman, the motorcycle police who were leading us. at about that time, we began to pull out of the cavalcade, out of the line, and i lost consciousness and didn't regain consciousness until we got to the hospital. mr. specter. governor connally, i hand you a photograph, marked commission exhibit , which is an overhead shot of dealey plaza depicting the intersection of houston and elm, and ask you if you would take a look at that photograph and mark for us, if you would, with one of the red pencils at your right, the position of the president's automobile as nearly as you can where it was at the time the shooting first started. governor connally. i would say it would be about where this truck is here. it looks like a truck. i would say about in that neighborhood. mr. specter. would you place your initials, governor, by the mark that you made there? governor, you have described hearing a first shot and a third shot. did you hear a second shot? governor connally. no; i did not. mr. specter. what is your best estimate as to the timespan between the first shot which you heard and the shot which you heretofore characterized as the third shot? governor connally. it was a very brief span of time; oh, i would have to say a matter of seconds. i don't know. , seconds. it was extremely rapid, so much so that again i thought that whoever was firing must be firing with an automatic rifle because of the rapidity of the shots; a very short period of time. mr. specter. what was your impression then as to the source of the shot? governor connally. from back over my right shoulder which, again, was where immediately when i heard the first shot i identified the sound as coming back over my right shoulder. mr. specter. at an elevation? governor connally. at an elevation. i would have guessed at an elevation. mr. specter. excuse me. governor connally. well, that is all. mr. specter. did you have an impression as to the source of the third shot? governor connally. the same. i would say the same. mr. specter. how fast was the president's automobile proceeding at that time? governor connally. i would guess between and miles an hour, and it is a guess because i didn't look at the speedometer, but i would say in that range. mr. specter. did president kennedy make any statement during the time of the shooting or immediately prior thereto? governor connally. he never uttered a sound at all that i heard. mr. specter. did mrs. kennedy state anything at that time? governor connally. yes; i have to--i would say it was after the third shot when she said, "they have killed my husband." mr. specter. did she say anything more? governor connally. yes; she said, i heard her say one time, "i have got his brains in my hand." mr. specter. did that constitute everything that she said at that time? governor connally. that is all i heard her say. mr. specter. did mrs. connally say anything further at this time? governor connally. all she said to me was, after i was hit when she pulled me over in her lap, she said, "be quiet, you are going to be all right. be still, you are going to be all right." she just kept repeating that. mr. specter. was anything further stated by special agent roy kellerman other than that which you have already testified about? governor connally. no; those are the only two remarks that i heard him make. mr. specter. was any statement made by special agent william greer at or about the time of the shooting? governor connally. no; i did not hear bill say anything. mr. specter. did you observe any reaction by president kennedy after the shooting? governor connally. no; i did not see him. mr. specter. did you observe any reaction by mrs. kennedy after the shooting? governor connally. i did not see her. this almost sounds incredible, i am sure, since we were in the car with them. but again i will repeat very briefly when what i believe to be the shot first occurred, i turned to my right, which was away from both of them, of course, and looked out and could see neither, and then as i was turning to look into the back seat where i would have seen both of them, i was hit, so i never completed the turn at all, and i never saw either one of them after the firing started, and, of course, as i have testified, then mrs. connally pulled me over into her lap and i was facing forward with my head slightly turned up to where i could see the driver and roy kellerman on his right, but i could not see into the back seat, so i didn't see either one of them. mr. specter. when you turned to your right, governor connally, immediately after you heard the first shot, what did you see on that occasion? governor connally. nothing of any significance except just people out on the grass slope. i didn't see anything that was out of the ordinary, just saw men, women, and children. mr. specter. do you have any estimate as to the distance which the president's automobile traveled during the shooting? governor connally. no; i hadn't thought about it, but i would suppose in to seconds, i suppose you travel a couple of hundred feet. mr. specter. did you observe any bullet or fragments of bullet strike the windshield? governor connally. no. mr. specter. did you observe any bullet or fragments of bullet strike the metal chrome? governor connally. no. mr. specter. did you experience any sensation of being struck any place other than that which you have described on your chest? governor connally. no. mr. specter. what other wounds, if any, did you sustain? governor connally. a fractured wrist and a wound in the thigh, just above the knee. mr. specter. what thigh? governor connally. left thigh; just above the knee. mr. specter. where on the wrist were you injured, sir? governor connally. i don't know how you describe it. mr. specter. about how many inches up from the wrist joint? governor connally. i would say an inch above the wrist bone, but on the inner bone of the wrist where the bullet went in here and came out almost in the center of the wrist on the underside. mr. specter. about an inch from the base of the palm? governor connally. about an inch from the base of the palm, a little less than an inch, three-quarters of an inch. mr. specter. were you conscious of receiving that wound on the wrist at the time you sustained it? governor connally. no, sir; i was not. mr. specter. when did you first know you were wounded in the right wrist? governor connally. when i came to in the hospital on saturday, the next morning, and i looked up and my arm was tied up in a hospital bed, and i said, "what is wrong with my arm?" and they told me then that i had a shattered wrist, and that is when i also found out i had a wound in the thigh. mr. specter. can you describe the nature of the wound in the thigh? governor connally. well, just a raw, open wound, looked like a fairly deep penetration. mr. specter. indicating about inches? governor connally. no; i would say about an inch, an inch and a quarter long is all; fairly wide, i would say a quarter of an inch wide, maybe more, a third of an inch wide, and about an inch and a quarter, an inch and a half long. mr. specter. were you conscious that you had been wounded on the left thigh at the time it occurred? governor connally. no. mr. specter. did you first notice that in the hospital on the following day also? governor connally. yes. mr. specter. in your view, which bullet caused the injury to your chest, governor connally? governor connally. the second one. mr. specter. and what is your reason for that conclusion, sir? governor connally. well, in my judgment, it just couldn't conceivably have been the first one because i heard the sound of the shot. in the first place, i don't know anything about the velocity of this particular bullet, but any rifle has a velocity that exceeds the speed of sound, and when i heard the sound of that first shot, that bullet had already reached where i was, or it had reached that far, and after i heard that shot. i had the time to turn to my right, and start to turn to my left before i felt anything. it is not conceivable to me that i could have been hit by the first bullet, and then i felt the blow from something which was obviously a bullet, which i assumed was a bullet, and i never heard the second shot, didn't hear it. i didn't hear but two shots. i think i heard the first shot and the third shot. mr. specter. do you have any idea as to why you did not hear the second shot? governor connally. well, first, again i assume the bullet was traveling faster than the sound. i was hit by the bullet prior to the time the sound reached me, and i was in either a state of shock or the impact was such that the sound didn't even register on me, but i was never conscious of hearing the second shot at all. obviously, at least the major wound that i took in the shoulder through the chest couldn't have been anything but the second shot. obviously, it couldn't have been the third, because when the third shot was fired i was in a reclining position, and heard it, saw it and the effects of it, rather--i didn't see it, i saw the effects of it--so it obviously could not have been the third, and couldn't have been the first, in my judgment. mr. specter. what was the nature of the exit wound on the front side of your chest, governor? governor connally. i would say, if the committee would be interested, i would just as soon you look at it. is there any objection to any of you looking at it? the chairman. no. governor connally. you can tell yourself. i would say, to describe it for the record, however, that it, the bullet, went in my back just below the right shoulder blade, at just about the point that the right arm joins the shoulder, right in that groove, and exited about inches toward the center of the body from the right nipple of my chest. i can identify these for you. the bullet went in here--see if i properly describe that--about the juncture of the right arm and the shoulder. mr. specter. let the record show that the governor has removed his shirt and we can view the wound on the back which he is pointing toward. governor connally. the other two are tubes that were inserted in my back by the doctors. mr. specter. dr. shaw is present and he can, perhaps, describe with identifiable precision where the wounds are. dr. shaw. there is the wound of the drain that has been specifically described. it was not as large as the scar indicated because in cleaning up the ragged edges of the wound, some of the skin was excised in order to make a cleaner incision. this scar---- mr. specter. will you describe the location, doctor, of that wound on the governor's back? dr. shaw. yes. it is on the right shoulder, i will feel it, just lateral to the shoulder blade, the edge of which is about centimeters from the wound, and just above and slightly medial to the crease formed by the axilla or the armpit, the arm against the chest wall. mr. specter. what other scars are shown there on the governor's back? dr. shaw. the other scars are surgically induced. this is the incision that was made to drain the depth of the subscapular space. mr. specter. and there you are indicating an incision at what location, please? dr. shaw. just at the angle of the shoulder blade. here is the angle of the shoulder blade. these incisions were never closed by suture. these incisions were left open and they healed by what we call secondary intention, because in this case there was what we call a penrose drain, which is a soft-rubber drain going up into the depths of the shoulder to allow any material to drain. this was to prevent infection. the other small opening was the one in which the tube was placed through the eighth interspace. mr. specter. indicate its location, please, doctor, on his back. dr. shaw. this is lower on the right back in what we refer to as the posterior axillary line, roughly this line. mr. specter. there you are drawing a vertical, virtually vertical line? dr. shaw. yes. it is on the right back, but getting close to the lateral portion of the chest. this also was a stab wound which was never sutured. there was a rubber drain through this that led to what we call a water seal bottle to allow for drainage of the inside of the chest. mr. specter. indicating again the second medically inflicted wound. dr. shaw. yes; that is right. mr. specter. will you now, doctor, describe the location of the wound of exit on the governor's chest, please? dr. shaw. yes. the wound of exit was beneath and medial to the nipple. here was this =v= that i was indicating. it is almost opposite that. at the time of the wound there was a ragged oval hole here at least centimeters in diameter, but the skin edges were excised, and here again this scar does not look quite as nice as it does during the more lateral portion of the surgically induced incision, because this skin was brought together under a little tension, and there is a little separation there. mr. specter. will you describe the entire scar there, doctor, for the record, please? dr. shaw. yes. the entire surgical incision runs from the anterior portion of the chest just lateral to the, we call it, the condral arch, the =v= formed by the condral arch, and then extends laterally below the nipple, running up, curving up, into the posterior axillary portion or the posterior lateral wall of the chest. mr. specter. what is the total length of the scar, doctor? dr. shaw. twenty centimeters, about. mr. dulles. where was the center of the bullet wound itself in that scar about? dr. shaw. here. mr. dulles. there? dr. shaw. yes. all of the rest of this incision was necessary to gain access to the depths of the wound for the debridement, for removing all of the destroyed tissue because of the passage of the bullet. mr. dulles. would you give us in your hand the area of declination from the entry to the---- dr. shaw. this way. mr. dulles. yes. mr. specter. can you estimate that angle for us, doctor? dr. shaw. we are talking about the angle now, of course, with the horizontal, and i would say--you don't have a caliper there, do you? dr. gregory. yes. dr. shaw. i was going to guess somewhere between ° and °. mr. dulles. sorry to ask these questions. governor connally. that is fine. i think it is an excellent question. dr. shaw. well, this puts it right at °. mr. specter. that is the angle then of elevation as you are measuring it? dr. shaw. measuring from back to front, it is the elevation of the posterior wound over the anterior wound. the chairman. the course being downward back to front? dr. shaw. yes. governor connally. back to front. the chairman. yes. dr. shaw. at the time of the initial examination, as i described, this portion of the governor's chest was mobile, it was moving in and out because of the softening of the chest, and that was the reason i didn't want the skin incision to be directly over that, because to get better healing it is better to have a firm pad of tissue rather than having the incision directly over the softened area. mr. dulles. doctor, would the angle be the same if the governor were seated now the way he was in the chair? dr. shaw. that is a good question. of course, we don't know exactly whether he was back or tipped forward. but i don't think there is going to be much difference. mr. dulles. were you seated in about that way, governor? governor connally. mr. dulles, i would say i was in about this position when i was hit, with my face approximately looking toward you, ° off of center. dr. shaw. yes; i got °. that didn't make much difference. mr. specter. is that reading taken then while the governor is in a seated position, doctor? dr. shaw. yes, seated; yes. representative boggs. may i ask a question? how would his hand have been under those circumstances, doctor, for the bullet to hit his wrist? dr. gregory. i think it fits very well, really, remembering at the other end the trajectory is right here, and there would be no problem to pose his hands in that fashion, and if you will note, you can see it best from over here really, because you did see that the point of entry, and you can visualize his thigh, there is no problem to visualize the trajectory. mr. dulles. would you be naturally holding your hand in that position? dr. gregory. it could be any place. governor connally. it could be anywhere on that line, mr. dulles. mr. chief justice, you see this is the leg. dr. shaw. of course, the wound is much smaller than this. mr. specter. let the record show the governor has displayed the left thigh showing the scar caused by the entry of the missile in the left thigh. dr. gregory, will you describe the locale of that? dr. gregory. yes. this scar, excisional scar, is a better term, if i may just interject that---- mr. specter. please do. dr. gregory. the excisional scar to the governor's thigh is located at a point approximately or centimeters above the adductor tubercule of the femur, placing it at the juncture of the middle and distal third of his thigh. mr. specter. in lay language, doctor, about how far is that up from the knee area? dr. gregory. five inches, inches. mr. specter. governor connally, can you recreate the position that you were sitting in in the automobile, as best you can recollect, at the time you think you were struck? governor connally. i think, having turned to look over my right shoulder, then revolving to look over my left shoulder, i threw my right wrist over on my left leg. mr. specter. and in the position you are seated now, with your right wrist on your left leg, with your little finger being an inch or two from your knee? governor connally. from the knee. mr. specter. and, dr. gregory, would that be in approximate alignment which has been characterized on commission exhibit---- dr. gregory. i think it fits reasonably well; yes, sir. mr. specter. in a moment here i can get that exhibit. mr. dulles. may i ask a question in the meantime? governor connally. yes, sir. mr. dulles. you turned to the right, as i recall your testimony, because you heard the sound coming from the right? governor connally. yes, sir. mr. dulles. how did you happen to turn then to the left, do you remember why that was? governor connally. yes, sir; i know exactly. i turned to the right both to see, because it was an instinctive movement, because that is where the sound came from, but even more important, i immediately thought it was a rifleshot, i immediately thought of an assassination attempt, and i turned to see if i could see the president, to see if he was all right. failing to see him over my right shoulder, i turned to look over my left shoulder. mr. dulles. i see. governor connally. into the back seat, and i never completed that turn. i got no more than substantially looking forward, a little bit to the left of forward, when i got hit. representative boggs. may i ask one of the doctors a question? what is the incidence of recovery from a wound of this type? dr. gregory. i will defer the answer to dr. shaw. from the wrist, excellent so far as recovery is concerned. functionally, recovery is going to be good, too, and dr. shaw can take on the other one. dr. shaw. we never had any doubt about the governor's recovery. we knew what we had to do and we felt he could recover. i think i indicated that to mrs. connally. governor connally. as soon as you got into the chest and found out what it was. representative boggs. but, there was a very serious wound, was there not, doctor? dr. shaw. yes. it was both a shocking and painful wound, and the effects of the wound, the immediate effects of the wound, were very dangerous as far as governor connally was concerned, because he had what we call a sucking wound of the chest. this would not allow him to breathe. i think instinctively what happened, while he was riding in the car on the way to the hospital, he probably had his arm across, and he may have instinctively closed that sucking area to some extent. but they had to immediately put an occlusive dressing on it as soon as he got inside to keep him from sucking air in and out of the right chest. representative boggs. had hospitalization been delayed for about another half hour or so---- dr. shaw. that is speculation, but i don't think he could have maintained breathing, sufficient breathing, for a half hour with that type of wound. it is a little speculation. it would depend on how well he could protect himself. we have had instances where by putting their jackets around them like this, they could occlude this, and go for a considerable period of time. airmen during the war instinctively protected themselves in this way. representative boggs. you have no doubt about his physical ability to serve as governor? dr. shaw. none whatever. [laughter.] senator cooper. i am just trying to remember whether we asked you, doctor, if you probed the wound in the thigh to see how deep it was. dr. gregory. i did not, senator. dr. tom shires at our institution attended that wound, and i have his description to go on, what he found, what he had written, and his description is that it did not penetrate the thigh very deeply, just to the muscle, but not beyond that. representative boggs. just one other question of the doctor. having looked at the wound, there is no doubt in either of your minds that that bullet came from the rear, is there? dr. gregory. there has never been any doubt in my mind about the origin of the missile; no. representative boggs. and in yours? dr. shaw. no. mr. specter. governor connally, this is the exhibit which i was referring to, being . was that your approximate position except--that is the alinement with your right hand being on your left leg as you have just described? governor connally. no; it looks like my right hand is up on my chest. but i don't know. i can't say with any degree of certainty where my right hand was, frankly. mr. specter. governor connally---- governor connally. it could have been up on my chest, it could have been suspended in the air, it could have been down on my leg, it could have been anywhere. i just don't remember. i obviously, i suppose, like anyone else, wound up the next day realizing i was hit in three places, and i was not conscious of having been hit but by one bullet, so i tried to reconstruct how i could have been hit in three places by the same bullet, and i merely, i know it penetrated from the back through the chest first. i assumed that i had turned as i described a moment ago, placing my right hand on my left leg, that it hit my wrist, went out the center of the wrist, the underside, and then into my leg, but it might not have happened that way at all. mr. specter. were your knees higher on the jump seat than they would be on a normal chair such as you are sitting on? governor connally. i would say it was not unlike this, with the exception the knees might be slightly higher, perhaps a half an inch to an inch higher. mr. dulles. in this photograph you happen to have your right arm on the side of the car. i don't know whether you recall that. that is commission exhibit . that just happened to be one pose at one particular time? governor connally. yes; i don't think there is any question, mr. dulles, at various times we were turned in every direction. we had arms extended out of the car, on the side. mr. dulles. that was taken earlier, i believe. was that on main street? where was that taken? representative boggs. i wonder if i might ask a question? the chairman. go right ahead. representative boggs. this is a little bit off the subject, but it is pretty well established that the governor was shot and he has recovered. do you have any reason to believe there was any conspiracy afoot for somebody to assassinate you? governor connally. none whatever. representative boggs. had you ever received any threat from lee harvey oswald of any kind? governor connally. no. representative boggs. did you know him? governor connally. no. representative boggs. had you ever seen him? governor connally. no. representative boggs. have you ever had any belief of, subsequent to the assassination of president kennedy and your own injury, that there was a conspiracy here of any kind? governor connally. none whatever. representative boggs. what is your theory about what happened? governor connally. well, it is pure theory based on nothing more than what information is available to everyone, and probably less is available to me, certainly less than is available to you here on this commission. but i think you had an individual here with a completely warped, demented mind who, for whatever reason, wanted to do two things: first, to vent his anger, his hate, against many people and many things in a dramatic fashion that would carve for him, in however infamous a fashion, a niche in the history books of this country. and i think he deliberately set out to do just what he did, and that is the only thing that i can think of. you ask me my theory, and that is my theory, and certainly not substantiated by any facts. representative boggs. going on again, governor, and again using the word "theory," do you have any reason to believe that there was any connection between oswald and ruby? governor connally. i have no reason to believe that there was; no, congressman. by the same token, if you ask me do i have any reason not to believe it, i would have to answer the same, i don't know. representative boggs. yes. governor connally. i just don't have any knowledge or any information about the background of either, and i am just not in a position to say. mr. dulles. you recall your correspondence with oswald in connection with marine matters, when he thought you were still secretary of the navy? governor connally. after this was all over, i do, mr. dulles. as i recall, he wrote me a letter asking that his dishonorable discharge be corrected. but at the time he wrote the letter, if he had any reason about it at all, or shortly thereafter, he would have recognized that i had resigned as secretary of the navy a month before i got the letter, so it would really take a peculiar mind, it seems to me, to harbor any grudge as a result of that when i had resigned as secretary prior to the receipt of the letter. mr. dulles. i think i can say without violating any confidence, that there is nothing in the record to indicate that there was--in fact, marina, the wife, testified, in fact, to the contrary. there was no animus against you on the part of oswald, as you---- governor connally. i have wondered, of course, in my own mind as to whether or not there could have conceivably been anything, and the only--i suppose like any person at that particular moment, i represented authority to him. perhaps he was in a rebellious spirit enough to where i was as much a target as anyone else. but that is the only conceivable basis on which i can assume that he was deliberately trying to hit me. representative boggs. you have no doubt about the fact that he was deliberately trying to hit you? governor connally. yes, i do; i do have doubt, congressman. i am not at all sure he was shooting at me. i think i could with some logic argue either way. the logic in favor of him, of the position that he was shooting at me, is simply borne out by the fact that the man fired three shots, and he hit each of the three times he fired. he obviously was a pretty good marksman, so you have to assume to some extent at least that he was hitting what he was shooting at. on the other hand, i think i could argue with equal logic that obviously his prime target, and i think really his sole target, was president kennedy. his first shot, at least to him, he could not have but known the effect that it might have on the president. his second shot showed that he had clearly missed the president, and his result to him, as the result of the first shot, the president slumped and changed his position in the back seat just enough to expose my back. i haven't seen all of the various positions, but again i think from where he was shooting i was in the direct line of fire immediately in front of the president, so any movement on the part of the president would expose me. the chairman. have you seen the moving pictures, governor? governor connally. yes, sir; i have, mr. chief justice. mr. specter. was there any point of exit on your thigh wound? governor connally. no. mr. specter. (to dr. gregory.) would you give the precise condition of the right wrist, and cover the thigh, too? dr. gregory. the present state of the wound on his wrist indicates that the linear scar made in the course of the excision is well healed; that its upper limb is about---- governor connally. i thinks he wants you to describe the position of it. mr. specter. yes; the position. dr. gregory. i was about to do that. the upper limb of it is about centimeters above the wrist joint, and curves around toward the thumb distally to about a centimeter above the wrist joint. mr. specter. what is the total length of that? dr. gregory. the length of that excisional scar is about centimeters, an inch and a half. mr. specter. what is the wound appearing to be on the palmer side? dr. gregory. the wound on the palmer side of the wrist is now converted to a well-healed linear scar approximately one-half inch in length, and located about three-quarters of an inch above the distal flexion crease. representative boggs. what is the prognosis for complete return of function there? dr. gregory. very good, congressman; very good. mr. specter. governor connally, i now show you the black jacket and ask you if you can identify what that jacket is, whose it is? governor connally. yes, sir; that is mine. mr. specter. when did you last wear that jacket? governor connally. on november i was wearing this, the day of the shooting. mr. specter. i show you commission exhibit and ask you if that is a photograph of the front side of the jacket, as it appears at the moment? governor connally. yes; it is. mr. specter. i show you exhibit , and ask if that is a photograph of the rear side of the jacket? governor connally. yes, sir; it is. mr. specter. i now show you a shirt and ask you if you can identify this as having been the shirt you wore on the day of the assassination? governor connally. yes, sir; that is the shirt i had on. mr. specter. i show you exhibit and ask if that is a picture of the rear side of the shirt? governor connally. yes; it is. mr. specter. exhibit is shown to you, and i ask you if that is a photograph of the front side of the shirt? governor connally. yes, sir; it is. mr. specter. i show you a pair of black trousers and ask you if you can identify them? governor connally. yes, sir; these are the trousers to the coat we looked at a moment ago. they were the trousers i was wearing on the day of the shooting. mr. specter. i show you a photograph and ask you, which is exhibit , if that is a photograph of the front of the trousers? governor connally. yes, sir; it is. mr. specter. i show you exhibit and ask you if that depicts the rear of the trousers? governor connally. yes, sir; it does. mr. specter. i show you a tie, and ask you if you can identify that? governor connally. yes, sir; that is the tie i was wearing on the day of the shooting. mr. specter. i now show you a photograph marked commission exhibit and ask if that is a picture of the tie? governor connally. yes, sir; it is. mr. specter. what is the permanent home of these clothes at the present time when they are not on commission business? governor connally. they, the archives of the state of texas, asked for the clothing, and i have given the clothing to them. that is where they were sent from, i believe, here, to this commission. mr. specter. at this juncture, mr. chief justice, i move for the admission in evidence of commission exhibits and . the chairman. they may be admitted. (the items marked commission exhibits and for identification were received in evidence.) mr. specter. governor connally, in we were informed that lee harvey oswald paid a visit to austin. tex., and is supposed to also have visited your office. do you have any knowledge of such a visit? governor connally. no, sir. mr. dulles. what date did you give? mr. specter. . representative boggs. what date in ? mr. specter. we do not have the exact date on that. representative boggs. excuse me just a minute. would your office records indicate such a visit? governor connally. it might or might not, congressman. we have---- representative boggs. that is what i would think. governor connally. we have there a reception room that is open from about : to and from to every day, and depending on the time of the year there are literally hundreds of people who come in there. there would be as high as at a time that come in groups, and a tour--this is a very large reception room which, frankly, we can't use for any other purpose because it is so useful for tourists, and they literally come in by the hundreds, and some days we will have a thousand people in that room on any given day. so for me to say he never was in there, i couldn't do that; and he might well have been there, and no record of it in the office. we make no attempt to keep a record of all the people who come in. if they come in small groups or if they have appointments with me, or one of my assistants, yes, we do. we keep records of people who come in and want to leave a card or leave word that they dropped by. but i have no knowledge that he ever came by. mr. specter. governor connally, on your recitation of the events on the day of the assassination, you had come to the point where the shooting was concluded and the automobile had started to accelerate toward the hospital. what recollection do you have, if any, of the events on the way to the hospital from the assassination scene? governor connally. none really. i think at that point i had lost consciousness because i don't have any recollection, mr. specter, of anything that occurred on the way to the hospital. it was a very short period of time, but i don't remember it. mr. specter. do you have any recollection of your arrival at the hospital itself, at the parkland hospital? governor connally. yes. i think when the car stopped the driver was obviously driving at a very rapid rate of speed, and apparently, as he threw on the brakes of the car, it brought me back to consciousness. again, a strange thing--strange things run through your mind and, perhaps, not so strange under the circumstances, but i immediately--the only thought that occurred to me was that i was in the jump seat next to the door, that everyone concerned, was going to be concerned with the president; that i had to get out of the way so they could get to the president. so although i was reclining, and again mrs. connally holding me, i suddenly lurched out of her arms and tried to stand upright to get myself out of the car. i got--i don't really know how far i got. they tell me i got almost upright, and then just collapsed again, and someone then picked me up and put me on a stretcher. i again was very conscious because this was the first time that i had any real sensation of pain, and at this point the pain in the chest was excruciating, and i kept repeating just over and over, "my god, it hurts, it hurts," and it was hurting, it was excruciating at that point. i was conscious then off and on during the time i was in the emergency room. i don't recall that i remember everything, but i remember quite a bit. i remember being wheeled down the passageway, i remember doctors and various people talking in the emergency room. i remember them asking me a number of questions, too, which i answered, but that was about it. mr. specter. do you know whether there was any bullet, or bullet fragments, that remained in your body or in your clothing as you were placed on the emergency stretcher at parkland hospital? governor connally. no. mr. specter. governor connally, other than that which you have already testified to, do you know of any events or occurrences either before the trip or with the president in texas during his trip, or after his trip, which could shed any light on the assassination itself? governor connally. none whatever. mr. specter. do you know of any conversations involving anyone at all, either before the trip, during the trip, or after the trip, other than those which you have already related, which would shed any light on the facts surrounding the assassination? governor connally. none whatever. mr. specter. do you have anything to add which you think would be helpful to the commission in any way? governor connally. no, sir; mr. specter, i don't. i want to express my gratitude to the commission for hearing me so patiently, but i only wish i could have added something more that would be helpful to the commission on arriving at the many answers to so many of these difficult problems, but i don't. i can only say that it has taken some little time to describe the events and what happened. it is rather amazing in retrospect when you think really what a short period of time it took for it to occur, in a matter of seconds, and if my memory is somewhat vague about precisely which way i was looking or where my hand or arm was, i can only say i hope it is understandable in the light of the fact that this was a very sudden thing. it was a very shocking thing. i have often wondered myself why i never had the presence of mind enough--i obviously did say something; i said, "oh, no, no, no," and then i said, "my god, they are going to kill us all." i don't know why i didn't say. "get down in the car," but i didn't. you just never know why you react the way you do and why you don't do some things you ought to do. but i am again grateful to this commission as a participant in this tragedy and as a citizen of this country, and i want to express, i think in behalf of millions of people, our gratitude for the time and energy and the dedication that this commission has devoted to trying to supply the answers that people, i am sure, will be discussing for generations to come. i know it has been a difficult, long, laborious task for you, but i know that generations of the future americans will be grateful for your efforts. representative boggs. governor, i would like to say that we have had fine cooperation from all of your texas officials, from the attorney general of the state, and from his people and others who have worked with the commission. governor connally. well, we are delighted, and i am very happy that the attorney general is here with us today. senator cooper. may i ask one question? the chairman. yes, senator cooper. senator cooper. governor, at the time you all passed the texas school book depository, did you know that such a building was located there? were you familiar with the building at all? governor connally. just vaguely, senator. senator cooper. but now when you heard the shot, you turned to your right because you thought, as you said, that the shot came from that direction. as you turned, was that in the direction of the texas school book depository? governor connally. yes, sir; it was. senator cooper. do you remember an overpass in front of you---- governor connally. yes, sir. senator cooper. as you moved down? governor connally. yes, sir. senator cooper. were you aware at all of any sounds of rifleshots from the direction of the overpass, from the embankment? governor connolly. no, sir; i don't believe there were such. senator cooper. well, you know, there have been stories. governor connally. yes, sir; but i don't believe that. senator cooper. i wanted to ask you if you were very conscious of the fact--you were conscious of a shot behind you, you were not aware of any shot from the embankment or overpass. the answer is what? governor connally. i am not aware of any shots from the overpass, senator. senator, i might repeat my testimony with emphasis to this extent, that i have all my life been familiar with the sound of a rifleshot, and the sound i heard i thought was a rifleshot, at the time i heard it i didn't think it was a firecracker, or blowout or anything else. i thought it was a rifleshot. i have hunted enough to think that my perception with respect to directions is very, very good, and this shot i heard came from back over my right shoulder, which was in the direction of the school book depository, no question about it. i heard no other. the first and third shots came from there. i heard no other sounds that would indicate to me there was any commotion or disturbance of shots or anything else on the overpass. senator cooper. would you describe again the nature of the shock that you had when you felt that you had been hit by a bullet? governor connally. senator, the best way i can describe it is to say that i would say it is as if someone doubled his fist and came up behind you and just with about a -inch blow hit you right in the back right below the shoulder blade. senator cooper. that is when you heard the first rifleshot? governor connally. this was after i heard the first rifleshot. there was no pain connected with it. there was no particular burning sensation. there was nothing more than that. i think you would feel almost the identical sensation i felt if someone came up behind you and just, with a short jab, hit you with a doubled-up fist just below the shoulder blade. senator cooper. that is all. mr. specter. i have just one other question, governor. with respect to the films and the slides which you have viewed this morning, had you ever seen those pictures before this morning? governor connally. i had seen what purported to be a copy of the film when i was in the hospital in dallas. i had not seen the slides. mr. specter. and when do you think you were hit on those slides, governor, or in what range of slides? governor connally. we took--you are talking about the number of the slides? mr. specter. yes. governor connally. as we looked at them this morning, and as you related the numbers to me, it appeared to me that i was hit in the range between or , i don't remember precisely, up to , in that bracket. mr. specter. may i suggest to you that it was ? governor connally. well, and , then. mr. specter. the series under our numbering system starts with a higher number when the car comes around the turn, so when you come out of the sign, which was---- governor connally. it was just after we came out of the sign, for whatever that sequence of numbers was, and if it was , i correct my testimony. it was to about . it was within that range. mr. specter. that is all. the chairman. are there any other questions? mr. dulles. i have one or two. governor, were you consulted at all about the security arrangements in connection with the dallas visit? governor connally. no, sir; not really; no, sir; and let me add we normally are not. mr. dulles. i realize that. governor connally. mr. dulles, the secret service, as you know, comes in, they work with both our department of public safety and the various city police, and the various localities in which we are going. so far as i know, there was complete cooperation on the part of everyone concerned, but i was not consulted. mr. dulles. i think you mentioned that there was a slight change in plans before the arrival in san antonio. i don't know whether it affects our investigation at all. do you recall that? governor connally. yes, sir; i don't know whether it--i don't think it affects the testimony at all. i was merely trying to relate some of the problems that had gone into planning a presidential trip into four cities. mr. dulles. yes. governor connally. and trying to arrange this all initially within about a -hour period which had been expanded into a little more than that because the president finally agreed to come the day before, and come into san antonio on the afternoon before the thomas dinner on thursday night. mr. dulles. that was the change you had in mind? governor connally. this was the change. this gave us much more latitude because it permitted us to go into san antonio, which is one of the major stops, which was the major stop, really, because he dedicated the aerospace medical center on thursday, which meant we did not have to crowd thursday. but there was a change, but not significant to this investigation. mr. dulles. do you happen to recall in general when the decision was reached that the visit would include a trip to dallas, or was that always a part? governor connally. i think it was always a part. mr. dulles. of the planning? governor connally. yes; i think it was always a part. there was consideration given, if you had to leave out some place, let us leave out dallas or let us leave out this one or that one, but there was no question, i don't think, in anyone's mind if we made more than one stop in the big cities that we were going to try to make them all, san antonio, houston, dallas, and fort worth. mr. dulles. you do not recall seeing anyone approach the car outside of those who were in the procession just prior to the shooting, anyone from the sidewalk or along the street there, in the park, which was on one side? governor connally. no, sir; i sure don't. mr. dulles. you and one other happen to be the only witnesses who have indicated that they recognized it as being a rifleshot. the other witness, like you, was a huntsman. most of the witnesses have indicated they thought it was a backfire; the first shot was a backfire or a firecracker. can you distinguish, what is there that distinguishes a rifleshot from a backfire or a firecracker? can you tell or is it just instinct? governor connally. i am not sure i could accurately describe it. i don't know that i have ever attempted to. i would say a firecracker or a blowout has more of a hollow, bursting kind of sound, as if you popped a balloon, or something of this sort. a rifleshot, on the other hand, to me has more of a ring, kind of an echo to it, more of a metallic sound to it. it is a more penetrating sound than a firecracker or a blowout. it carries---- mr. dulles. that gives me what i had in mind. i realize that. that is all i have, mr. chief justice. the chairman. thank you very much. we are very appreciative of the help you have given us. senator cooper. may i ask just one question? the chairman. we hate to have you review all of this sordid thing again. senator cooper. may i ask a rather general question? i would like to ask, in view of all the discussion which has been had, was there any official discussion of any kind before this trip of which you were aware that there might be some act of violence against the president? governor connally. no, sir. senator cooper. thank you. governor connally. no; let me say that there have been several news stories---- senator cooper. yes, i know. governor connally. that purportedly quoted me about not wanting the president to ride in a motorcade or caravan in dallas. that is very true. but the implication was that i had some fear of his life, which is not true. the reason i didn't want him to do it at the time it came up was simply we were running out of time, and that, i thought, we were working him much too hard. this again was before the change, moving san antonio to thursday instead of having it all on one day, and i was opposed to a motorcade because they do drain energy, and it takes time to do it, and i didn't think we had the time. but once we got san antonio moved from friday to thursday afternoon, where that was his initial stop in texas, then we had the time, and i withdrew my objections to a motorcade. the chairman. thank you very much, governor. governor connally. thank you, sir. testimony of mrs. john bowden connally, jr. the chairman. mrs. connally, would you mind telling us the story of this affair as you heard it, and we will be brief, and we will start right with the shooting itself, and mr. specter will also examine you. would you raise your right hand and be sworn, please? do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mrs. connally. i do. the chairman. will you sit, please? mr. specter. are you the wife of governor john c. connally? mrs. connally. no, i am the wife of governor john b. connally. mr. specter. mrs. connally, tell us what happened at the time of the assassination. mrs. connally. we had just finished the motorcade through the downtown dallas area, and it had been a wonderful motorcade. the people had been very responsive to the president and mrs. kennedy, and we were very pleased, i was very pleased. as we got off main street--is that the main thoroughfare? mr. specter. that is the street on which you were proceeding through the town, yes. mrs. connally. in fact the receptions had been so good every place that i had showed much restraint by not mentioning something about it before. i could resist no longer. when we got past this area i did turn to the president and said, "mr. president, you can't say dallas doesn't love you." then i don't know how soon, it seems to me it was very soon, that i heard a noise, and not being an expert rifleman, i was not aware that it was a rifle. it was just a frightening noise, and it came from the right. i turned over my right shoulder and looked back, and saw the president as he had both hands at his neck. mr. specter. and you are indicating with your own hands, two hands crossing over gripping your own neck? mrs. connally. yes; and it seemed to me there was--he made no utterance, no cry. i saw no blood, no anything. it was just sort of nothing, the expression on his face, and he just sort of slumped down. then very soon there was the second shot that hit john. as the first shot was hit, and i turned to look at the same time, i recall john saying, "oh, no, no, no." then there was a second shot, and it hit john, and as he recoiled to the right, just crumpled like a wounded animal to the right, he said, "my god, they are going to kill us all." i never again---- mr. dulles. to the right was into your arms more or less? mrs. connally. no, he turned away from me. i was pretending that i was him. i never again looked in the back seat of the car after my husband was shot. my concern was for him, and i remember that he turned to the right and then just slumped down into the seat, so that i reached over to pull him toward me. i was trying to get him down and me down. the jump seats were not very roomy, so that there were reports that he slid into the seat of the car, which he did not; that he fell over into my lap, which he did not. i just pulled him over into my arms because it would have been impossible to get us really both down with me sitting and me holding him. so that i looked out, i mean as he was in my arms, i put my head down over his head so that his head and my head were right together, and all i could see, too, were the people flashing by. i didn't look back any more. the third shot that i heard i felt, it felt like spent buckshot falling all over us, and then, of course, i too could see that it was the matter, brain tissue, or whatever, just human matter, all over the car and both of us. i thought john had been killed, and then there was some imperceptible movement, just some little something that let me know that there was still some life, and that is when i started saying to him, "it's all right. be still." now, i did hear the secret service man say, "pull out of the motorcade. take us to the nearest hospital," and then we took out very rapidly to the hospital. just before we got to parkland, we made a right-hand turn, he must have been going very fast, because as he turned the weight of my husband's body almost toppled us both. mr. specter. how fast do you think he was going? mrs. connally. i don't know; very rapidly. the people i could see going by were just rushing. we were just rushing by very fast. we arrived at the hospital and sat there what seemed to me like an interminable time, and from what i know was just a few minutes, but the thoughts that went through my mind were how long must i sit here with this dying man in my arms while everybody is swarming over the president whom i felt very sure was dead, and just when i thought i could sit and wait no longer, john just sort of heaved himself up. he did not rise up in the car, he just sort of heaved himself up, and then collapsed down into the seat. mr. specter. at that time you and governor connally were still on the jump seats of the car? mrs. connally. yes, and they had not--the president was still--and mrs. kennedy were still in the back. i still had not ever looked back at the back seat after the second shot. i could hear, you know, hear them talking about how sad, and lamenting the fact that the president was in such poor shape and, of course, they didn't know whether he was--i guess they didn't know whether he was alive or dead. mr. specter. did president kennedy say anything at all after the shooting? mrs. connally. he did not say anything. mrs. kennedy said, the first thing i recall her saying was, after the first shot, and i heard her say, "jack, they have killed my husband," and then there was the second shot, and then after the third shot she said, "they have killed my husband. i have his brains in my hand," and she repeated that several times, and that was all the conversation. mr. specter. from that point forward you say you had your eyes to the front so you did not have a chance---- mrs. connally. yes, because i had him, and i really didn't think about looking back anyway, but i could just see the car rushing along, and people and things rushing past us. i remember thinking what a terrible sight this must be to those people, to see these two shot-up men, and it was a terribly horrifying thing, and i think that is about as i remember it. mr. specter. what happened then after you got to the hospital? mrs. connally. we got to the hospital and, like i said, john heaved himself over. they still could not seem to get mrs. kennedy or the president out of the back of the car, but someone scooped him up in their arms and put him on a stretcher. there were two stretchers there, and then they took him off immediately to the emergency room, and they ran down the hall with the stretcher, and i just ran along with them. they took him into the emergency room, and right behind us came the president on a stretcher, and they took him and put him in a room to the right. there was much commotion and confusion. there were lots of what i assumed were secret service men rushing in with machine guns, i guess, or tommyguns. i am not real sure, they were big arms of some sort. there was no one--there were lots of people across the hall. there was no one with me and, of course, my thoughts then were, i guess like any other woman, i wondered if all the doctors were in the room on the left, and they were not taking too good care of my husband on the right. i shouldn't have worried about that, should i? i knew no one in the hospital and i was alone. twice i got up and opened the door into the emergency room, and i could hear john and i could see him moving, and i knew then that he was still alive. i guess that time was short, too. it seemed endless. somebody rushed out, i thought it was a nurse, and handed me one cuff link. i later read that it was a lady doctor. they took him out of there very soon up to surgery, and i just left with him and waited in an office. do you know whose office i was in? it was where you came to me. dr. gregory. dr. jenkins' office. dr. shaw. yes. you were either in the anesthesia office or in the room that is part of the recovery room. was it the same place where you later stayed, mrs. connally? mrs. connally. no. dr. gregory. i think it was back in dr. jenkins' office. that is where i believe i first saw you. mrs. connally. i believe that is right. as soon as dr. shaw found that he had some encouraging news, that the wounds were not as extensive as he had thought they could be or might be, he sent that word to me from the operating room, and that was good news. i then asked if i couldn't go see mrs. kennedy, and they told me that she had left the hospital. mr. specter. were you visited at the hospital by mrs. johnson? mrs. connally. yes, i was. but i assume that was before, since they left together, not much of a visit. she came by and we didn't have to say much, and then they left. mr. specter. mrs. connally, what was your impression, if any, as to the source of the shots? mrs. connally. well, i had no thought of whether they were high or low or where. they just came from the right; sounded like they were to my right. mr. specter. how many did you hear in all? mrs. connally. i heard three. mr. specter. what is your best estimate on the time that passed from the first to the last shot? mrs. connally. very short. it seemed to me that there was less time between the first and the second than between the second and the third. mr. specter. about how fast do you think the car was going then? mrs. connally. i don't really know. not too fast. it was sort of a letdown time for us. we could relax for, we thought we could, for just a minute. mr. specter. and you mean by that since the major part of the crowd had been passed? mrs. connally. we had gone by them. the underpass was in sight, and i knew that as soon as we passed through the underpass that then we would be going straight to the trade mart for the luncheon, and i felt like we would then be moving fast and not have people on all sides of us. mr. specter. did you see the films this morning here in the commission office? mrs. connally. yes, i did. mr. specter. did you have an opinion as to which frame it was that governor connally was shot? mrs. connally. yes. i was in agreement with the governor. i am not sure i remember the numbers so correct me, but i thought at the time that it was that --it could have been then through the next three or four frames. mr. specter. do you have anything---- mrs. connally. they were blurred. mr. specter. with respect to the source, you say you thought it was to the right--did you have any reaction as to whether they were from the front, rear or side? mrs. connally. i thought it was from back of us. mr. specter. to the rear? mrs. connally. to the right; that is right. mr. specter. did you have any reaction as to the question of elevation or level? mrs. connally. no, i didn't. mr. specter. do you have anything else to add which you think would be helpful to the commission in any way? mrs. connally. i don't think so. the chairman. are there any other questions? senator, do you have any? do you have any, mr. dulles? mr. dulles. i just have one question. mrs. connally, on one point your testimony differs from a good many others as to the timing of the shots. i think you said that there seemed to be more time between the second and third than between the first and the second; is that your recollection? mrs. connally. yes. mr. dulles. that is, the space between the first and the second was less than between the second and the third? you realize i just wanted to get whether i had heard you correctly on that. mrs. connally. you did. mr. dulles. thank you very much. mrs. connally. thank you. the chairman. mrs. connally, thank you very much. we hate to have you review all this in your mind's eye again, but it was necessary to have your testimony, and you were very kind to come. mrs. connally. thank you. the chairman. we appreciate it very much, indeed. (whereupon, at : p.m., the president's commission adjourned.) _wednesday, april , _ testimony of jesse edward curry, j. w. fritz, t. l. baker, and j. c. day the president's commission met at : a.m. on april , , at maryland avenue ne., washington, d.c. present were chief justice earl warren, chairman; senator john sherman cooper, representative gerald r. ford, john j. mccloy, and allen w. dulles, members. also present were j. lee rankin, general counsel; joseph a. ball, assistant counsel; david w. belin, assistant counsel; melvin aron eisenberg, assistant counsel; leon d. hubert, jr., assistant counsel; norman redlich, assistant counsel; charles murray, observer; waggoner carr, attorney general of texas; and dean robert g. storey, special counsel to the attorney general of texas. testimony of jesse edward curry the chairman. the commission will come to order. chief, we have asked you to come here this morning, you and some of your officers, for the purpose of taking their testimony concerning the matters surrounding the arrest and the death of lee oswald at the time of the assassination of the president. i think we will take the testimony of you, captain fritz, lieutenant day, and lieutenant baker. i want to say to you, chief, before i leave, i will have to leave after an hour or so in order to sit on some cases we are hearing in the supreme court but i want to say to you beforehand that our staff was very much pleased with the cooperation that it received from your people when they were down in dallas, and from the help that you personally gave to them, and made it very helpful, they were very helpful, and we did need to have speed at that particular time, because, as you know, we were obliged to wait until the ruby trial was over before we could come down there at all. so, we appreciate the assistance that your people gave us throughout that proceeding. now, would you please rise, chief, and raise your right hand to be sworn. do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. curry. i do. the chairman. mr. rankin, our chief counsel, will interrogate you, chief. mr. rankin, will you proceed? mr. rankin. yes; mr. chief justice. chief curry, you gave a deposition for the commission recently, did you not? mr. curry. yes; i did, sir. mr. rankin. that was about april , ? mr. curry. yes, sir. mr. rankin. and that was down in dallas that you gave it? mr. curry. yes, sir; it was. mr. rankin. and mr. hubert examined you? mr. curry. that is true. mr. rankin. that was taken down by a court reporter? mr. curry. yes, sir. mr. rankin. do you have anything to add to what you said at that time or wish to correct it in any way? mr. curry. i can't recall of anything that i should correct or add to. mr. rankin. i ask you those questions in a general way, we will go back to certain parts of that but i would like to proceed at this time in view of the fact that the chief justice and possibly other members of the commission who will come may not be able to be here all the time that you are being examined and i would like to get to certain crucial matters if i may. when did you learn of the arrest of lee harvey oswald? mr. curry. while i was out at parkland hospital. mr. rankin. do you know about what time that was, the day? mr. curry. it was on the d and the best i recall it was around o'clock or maybe a little after o'clock. mr. rankin. how did that come to your attention? mr. curry. some of my officers came to me and said they had arrested a suspect in the shooting of our officer tippit. mr. rankin. what else did they say? mr. curry. they also told me a little later, i believe, that he was a suspect also in the assassination of the president. mr. rankin. what did you do then? mr. curry. i didn't do anything at the time. i was at the hospital, and i remained at the hospital until some of the secret service asked me to prepare two cars that we were informed that president kennedy had expired and we were requested to furnish two cars for president johnson and some of his staff to return to love field. mr. rankin. did you do that? mr. curry. yes; i did. mr. rankin. what else--what did you do after that? mr. curry. after the planes departed from love field, i was there for the inauguration of the president, and then we left the plane, and judge sarah hughes and myself, and i remained at love for some, i guess perhaps an hour. mr. rankin. by inauguration, you mean the swearing in of the president? mr. curry. that is right, sir. mr. rankin. on the plane? mr. curry. on the plane; yes. mr. rankin. and then you left love field? mr. curry. i talked to mayor cabell and his wife for a little while and after the plane left love field then i left love field. mr. rankin. did you go with judge hughes or she go with you? mr. curry. no; she was in her own car. mr. rankin. i see. mr. curry. and i returned to the city hall. mr. dulles. did i understand correctly, how long were you at love field after the plane of the president left? mr. curry. as i recall it was approximately an hour. mr. dulles. that is what i thought. mr. curry. we waited there until the casket bearing the president, and then the cars bearing mrs. kennedy arrived, and it was, i would judge an hour perhaps. mr. rankin. then what did you do? mr. curry. i returned to my office at city hall. mr. rankin. did you do anything about lee harvey oswald at that time? mr. curry. no. as i went into the city hall it was overrun with the news media. mr. rankin. what did you do about that? mr. curry. i didn't do anything. they were jammed into the north hall of the third floor, which are the offices of the criminal investigation division. the television trucks, there were several of them around the city hall. i went into my administrative offices, i saw cables coming through the administrative assistant office and through the deputy chief of traffic through his office, and running through the hall they had a live tv set up on the third floor, and it was a bedlam of confusion. mr. rankin. did anyone of the police department give them permission to do this? mr. curry. i noticed--well, i don't know who gave them permission because i wasn't there. when i returned they were up there. mr. rankin. did you inquire about whether permission had been given? mr. curry. no; i didn't. we had in the past had always permitted free movement of the press around the city hall but we had never been faced with anything like this before where we had national and international news media descending upon us in this manner. mr. rankin. could you describe to the commission the difference this time as compared with the ordinary case that you have handled? mr. curry. well, the ordinary case, perhaps we have two or three or maybe a half dozen reporters, we have a room for them on the third floor where they normally on assignment at city hall they stay in this room. as prisoners are brought to and from the interrogation offices, it is necessary to bring them down the main corridor, and they usually are waiting there where they take pictures of them as they enter and as they leave and they sometimes try to ask them questions. mr. rankin. now, how was this different? mr. curry. that there was such total confusion here. we had to post men on the door to keep them actually from going into the office where they were interrogating. we had some men, police reserves and a sergeant, i noticed on the third floor when i come off the elevator. they were stationed there, and they were screening people to see whether or not they had business on the third floor because we did have to carry on our other normal business, the burglary and theft and the juvenile bureau and the auto theft bureau, the forgery bureau all of these are on the third floor in this wing. the chairman. chief, is this building just a police building or a municipal building, general purposes? mr. curry. it is a section of the municipal building. the chairman. a section of it. is it isolated from the rest of it? mr. curry. no; it is connected. the chairman. connected? mr. curry. yes. and on the first floor we have the courts and the traffic violations bureau. in the basement it is principally police offices. on the second floor we have the city planning commission, and we have part of our traffic division and special service bureau on the second floor. then on the third floor we have the criminal investigation division. we have the police dispatcher's office, and we have the administrative offices and we have the personnel offices. the chairman. i see. mr. curry. but all these are connected with the municipal building, each floor is. the chairman. yes. mr. rankin. did you have anything to do with the interrogation of lee harvey oswald? mr. curry. no, sir; i did not. i was in the office once or twice while he was being interrogated but i never asked him any question myself. mr. rankin. do you know who did? mr. curry. captain fritz principally interrogated him, i believe. mr. rankin. was that his responsibility? mr. curry. yes; it was. there were several people in the office. it seems to me we were violating every principle of interrogation, the method by which we had to interrogate. mr. rankin. will you explain to the commission what you mean by that? mr. curry. ordinarily an interrogator in interrogating a suspect will have him in a quiet room alone or perhaps with one person there. mr. rankin. is that your regular practice? mr. curry. that is the regular practice. mr. rankin. tell us how this was done? mr. curry. this we had representatives from the secret service, we had representatives from the fbi, we had representatives from the ranger force, and they were--and then one or two detectives from the homicide bureau. this was, well, it was just against all principles of good interrogation practice. mr. rankin. by representatives can you tell us how many were from each of these agencies that you describe? mr. curry. i can't be sure. i recall i believe two from the fbi, one or two, inspector kelley was there from secret service, and i believe another one of his men was there. there was one, i recall seeing one man from the rangers. i don't recall who he was. i just remember now that there was one. captain fritz, and one or two of his detectives--this was in a small office. mr. rankin. did you do anything about this when you found out there were so many, did you give any instructions about it? mr. curry. no; i didn't. this was an unusual case. in fact, i had received a call from the fbi requesting that they have a representative from there in the hearing room. and we were trying to cooperate with all agencies concerned in this, and i called captain fritz and asked him to permit a representative of the fbi to come in. mr. dulles. who was directing the interrogation, captain fritz? mr. curry. captain fritz. mr. rankin. do you know how lee harvey oswald was treated by the police department? mr. curry. so far as i know he was treated as any other prisoner is treated. he was not handled in any manner any different from any other prisoner. he had a scratch or two on his face which he received when he was wrestling with the police over in this theater in oak cliff. other than that he had no marks on him. mr. rankin. did he ever complain that you know of about his treatment while he was there? mr. curry. no, sir; he did not. mr. rankin. did you give any instructions about the security or how he should be protected during this time? mr. curry. no; i personally didn't. deputy chief lumpkin, who has charge of the service division which is the jail security, he told me that he had ordered that two guards be placed on him right outside his cell and kept there hours a day as long as we had him. mr. rankin. do you know what was done about that? mr curry. it was carried out. he told me that this was carried out. mr. rankin. did you have any further difficulty with the media, the various press and radio and television representatives during this time? mr. curry. well, every time we would walk out of the office they would besiege you with questions and wanting statements and asking what we had found out, and did we think this was the right man, and they almost ran over you. mr. rankin. what did you do about that? mr. curry. i tried to maintain some order. i didn't order them out of the building, which if i had it to do over i would. in the past like i say, we had always maintained very good relations with our press, and they had always respected us, and this was something, the first time we experienced anything like this, to this degree. mr. rankin. did you have any tape recordings of the interviews with mr. oswald? mr. curry. i do not have. mr. rankin. did anyone? mr. curry. not to my knowledge. unless someone from the fbi or the secret service, if they recorded it, i don't know. mr. rankin. how many times was he interrogated, do you know? mr. curry. no; i do not know that. mr. rankin. you never examined him yourself at any time? mr. curry. no, sir; i didn't. mr. rankin. will you describe the place where he was kept while he was there in the jail? mr. curry. well, it is in one of our maximum security cells, much the same as any other jail. but he was isolated away from the other prisoners, and there was two jail guards set immediately outside his cell. mr. rankin. did you isolate him or was that in accordance with your instructions? mr. curry. no; this is customary with a prisoner of this type and chief lumpkin in charge of the service division had issued these orders. mr. rankin. what do you mean by maximum security in your prison? mr. curry. well, we have some cells where they have cells that are locked and then you come out of the cell into a corridor and that is locked, and these are maintained from a master control box. that is a maximum security cell. some of the others they just have a lock on the door and it opens out into the hallway. mr. rankin. did you do anything about furnishing him clothing? mr. curry. we removed his clothing except for his underwear in order that he couldn't harm himself. when he was removed from the cell, of course, his clothes were given to him. mr. rankin. was he allowed to shower and clean up. mr. curry. i don't think he ever asked for a shower while he was there. had he asked for one he would have been permitted to shower and he would have been permitted to shave. mr. rankin. was he treated any differently in any way that you know of than other prisoners? mr. curry. except perhaps a little more security placed on him, a constant security. ordinarily we wouldn't, except in unusual cases would we have a constant surveillance on a prisoner, and this is usually, if we felt like he might try to harm himself we would have someone there to immediately prevent it. mr. dulles. could i ask a question? what was oswald's attitude toward the police? have you any comment on that? mr. curry. the only things i heard him say, he was very arrogant. he was very--he had a dislike for authority, it seemed, of anyone. he denied anything you asked him. i heard them ask once or twice if this was his picture or something, he said, "i don't know what you are talking about. no; it is not my picture," and this was a picture of him holding a rifle or something. i remember one time they showed him and he denied that being him. i remember he denied anything knowing anything about a man named hidell that he had this identification in his pocket or in his notebook, and i believe a postal inspector was in this room at the time, too, and someone asked him about the fact that he had a post office box in the name of hidell and he didn't know anything about that. he just didn't know anything about anything. mr. rankin. did it ever come to your attention that he ever asked for or inquired about counsel? mr. curry. yes; i heard him say something. i asked if he had had an opportunity to use the phone and captain fritz told me they were giving him an opportunity to use the phone. mr. rankin. what did he say about counsel? mr. curry. as i recall he said he wanted to try to get in touch with john abt. mr. rankin. a-b-t? mr. curry. a-b-t, i believe an attorney in new york, to handle his case and then if he couldn't get him he said he wanted to get someone from civil liberties union. mr. rankin. what did you do about that? mr. curry. i told them to let him talk to them in an attempt to get his attorney and in an attempt to get some of his relatives so they could arrange for it. mr. rankin. will you describe how it was handled for him to be able to talk on the telephone? mr. curry. we take them from their cells and we have two telephones that they are taken to, and they are put on these telephones and they are locked in, and a guard stands by while they make their calls. mr. rankin. is that call secret or is there any listening in on it? mr. curry. no, sir; it is not supposed to be secret. i mean it is supposed to be secret. it is privileged communication as far as we are concerned, we don't have a tap on the phone or anything. mr. dulles. did he use this? mr. curry. yes; he did. mr. rankin. do you know whether an attorney from dallas was offered to him and came to the jail? mr. curry. there were some members of the civil liberties union came to see us that night, and they said they were concerned with whether or not he was being permitted legal counsel. mr. rankin. did they talk to you? mr. curry. no; they didn't talk to me. they talked to professor webster. mr. rankin. how did this come to your attention? mr. curry. he told me. mr. rankin. i see. now, tell us what he said. mr. curry. he said that they had come down to see whether or not he was being permitted legal counsel, and professor webster is in the law school out at southern methodist university and he told them he thought he was being given an opportunity to get in touch with legal counsel, and they seemed satisfied then about it. we also got mr. nichols. mr. rankin. who is he? mr. curry. he was president of the dallas bar association or criminal bar. i don't know which, louis nichols, and---- mr. rankin. what did he do? mr. curry. he came down, he said he had heard that he was not being allowed the right to counsel, and they wanted to see and so i took him myself up to lee harvey oswald's cell and let him go in the cell and talk to lee harvey oswald. the chairman. who was mr. nichols, did you say? mr. curry. louis nichols. he was president either of the dallas---- dean storey. pardon me, it is dallas bar association. mr. curry. dallas bar association. the chairman. yes. mr. curry. he went in to talk to him and to see whether or not he was getting an opportunity to receive counsel and he seemed pleased, i mean he had no complaints. he told him if he didn't get john abt then he wanted someone from the civil liberties union to come up and talk to him. then mr. nichols then went out in front of the television cameras, i believe and made a statement to the effect that he had talked to him and he was satisfied that he was being given the opportunity for legal counsel. the chairman. on what day was this? mr. curry. that was on the same day we arrested him? the chairman. that was friday? mr. curry. yes. mr. rankin. do you know whether mr. oswald ever did obtain counsel? mr. curry. i don't believe he did. but i do know he made some telephone contacts. mr. rankin. did the police department so far as you know interfere in any way with his obtaining counsel? mr. curry. no, sir. mr. rankin. do you know when lee harvey oswald was arraigned? mr. curry. it was about : in the morning. that would be on the morning of the d, i believe. mr. rankin. how long did he--how long had he been in your custody then? mr. curry. about hours. that was on the tippit; yes, sir. mr. rankin. when you say that he was arraigned the following day early in the morning, did you mean for the tippit murder or for the assassination? mr. curry. no; that was for the assassination of the president. mr. rankin. all right, will you tell us when he was arraigned for the tippit murder? mr. curry. i was not present but i believe it was about : . mr. rankin. that same evening? mr. curry. yes; that would be about hours afterwards. mr. rankin. do you recall whether he was arrested first for the assassination or for the tippit murder? mr. curry. for the tippit murder. there were some witnesses to this murder and they had observed him as he left the scene, and this was what he was arrested for. the chairman. may i interrupt just to ask the chief a question? chief, on your arraignments does the magistrate advise the petitioner as to his right to counsel? mr. curry. yes, sir; he does. the chairman. does he ask him if he has counsel? mr. curry. i don't recall him doing that. i am not customarily present when a person is arraigned. the chairman. you were not present at the arraignment? mr. curry. i was present when he was arraigned for the assassination of the president. i was not present when he was arraigned for the murder of tippit. the chairman. i suppose they make a stenographic record of that, do they not? mr. curry. yes, sir; i am sure they do. the chairman. that is all i have. mr. rankin. chief, our people made an inquiry whether there was a stenographic record. they don't believe there was any. mr. curry. i am not sure of that. i know at the time he was arraigned for the assassination of the president i was present there at the time. it was decided that we should, district attorney was there at the city hall. he was there during most of the evening. mr. rankin. will you just describe for the commission what happened during the arraignment for the assassination, who was present, what you saw. mr. curry. as i recall, i know the justice of the peace david john stone was there. it seemed like sergeant warren, but i couldn't be positive but some of the jail personnel brought him out into the identification bureau. mr. rankin. how was he taken out? were there several people around him, what was the security arrangements? mr. curry. at that time there was only, we were inside the offices of the criminal identification section. he was brought out through a door that opens from the jail into the criminal identification section. there was only about a half dozen of us altogether there, i don't recall who all was there. mr. rankin. what do you mean by the criminal identification section. could you describe what that is? mr. curry. that is the identification bureau. mr. rankin. does that have a room that this meeting occurred in? mr. curry. it is not a room such as this. it was in the little foyer or lobby, and it is separated from the jail lobby. mr. rankin. did the justice of the peace sit or stand or what? mr. curry. he stood. he stood on one side of the counter and oswald on the other side of the counter. mr. rankin. what floor is this on? mr. curry. the fourth floor. mr. rankin. that is nearest the place where there are some filing cabinets? mr. curry. yes; it is. mr. rankin. and besides the people that you have described, i assume that you yourself were there as you have said? mr. curry. yes; i was. mr. rankin. was there anyone else that you recall? mr. curry. not that i recall, other than the justice of the peace. mr. rankin. will you describe what happened? mr. curry. lee harvey oswald was brought in and the complaint was read to him, and here again he was very arrogant and he said, "i don't know what you are talking about. that is the deal, is it," and such remarks as this, and the justice of the peace very patiently and courteously explained to him what the procedure was and why it was. mr. rankin. what did he say about that? mr. curry. i don't recall his exact words. mr. rankin. just tell us in substance. mr. curry. he didn't--as i recall, he didn't think much of it. he just said, "i don't know what you are talking about." mr. rankin. what did the justice of the peace say about the procedure and any rights and so forth? mr. curry. as i recall it, he read to him the fact that he was being charged with the assassination of the president of the united states, john kennedy on such and such day at such and such time. mr. rankin. did he say anything about his right to plead? mr. curry. i don't recall, sir. mr. rankin. did he say anything about counsel? mr. curry. i don't recall whether he did or not. mr. rankin. what else happened at that time that you recall? mr. curry. that is about all. after it was read to him, he was taken back to his cell. mr. rankin. did you go back with him to the cell? mr. curry. no, sir; i didn't. mr. rankin. who took him back to the cell? mr. curry. the jailer and assistant jailer or jail guard. mr. rankin. what came to your attention after that about lee harvey oswald, that you can recall, what was the next thing that happened that you know of? mr. curry. the next thing that i know of, was the next morning. mr. rankin. what happened then? mr. curry. the interrogation of lee harvey continued on and off through the day. no; i had asked the captain during the afternoon if he was being given rest periods and if he was being fed properly so that he wouldn't have reason to complain that we were mistreating him in any way. mr. rankin. what captain did you ask that? mr. curry. fritz. mr. rankin. what did he say? mr. curry. he said he was. he said he was not interrogating him on long drawn-out extended periods, he was letting him rest and he was being fed. mr. dulles. did the interrogation continue into the night or did it stop, do you know? mr. curry. i don't know what--well, it did continue into that first night, i know. but i don't know what time they discontinued the interrogation. mr. rankin. they stopped? mr. curry. i was not in the offices all the time. i was there two or three times. mr. rankin. captain fritz tell you anything about the interrogation, how it was going, what was said? mr. curry. he told me about, oh, late in the afternoon or early in the evening that he felt that he had enough evidence to file on him for the murder of the officer, and he told me, he said, "i strongly suspect that he was the assassin of the president." mr. rankin. do you know what time of day it was? mr. curry. it seemed to me like it was or o'clock on the day of the d. mr. rankin. can you describe the situation in the police headquarters with regard to the media. were they continuing to be there? mr. curry. they remained there. you could hardly get down the hall, and it was necessary, when we would take the prisoner back to the jail to bring him out of the office, and down this hallway and put him on a special elevator just for prisoners. mr. rankin. what office do you mean when you say that? mr. curry. from the homicide office. mr. rankin. yes. you took him down what hallway? mr. curry. the third floor hallway. the offices run like this in the building. the homicide office is right along here, perhaps feet. the elevator is right here, this is a special elevator that runs to the jail. mr. rankin. will you mark that homicide office with an "h" on to indicate it? mr. curry. this extends up here a little more perhaps. mr. rankin. will you mark the elevator with "el." the chairman. there is a lot of other writing on this paper a lot of doodling that someone else has done and i think the chief had better have a new piece of paper. gentlemen, before you get into a discussion of this diagram with the chief, mr. rankin, i must leave now for a session of the court, and mr. dulles, will you preside in my absence? mr. dulles. yes, mr. chairman. the chairman. i will be back immediately at the conclusion of our session today. (at this point, the chief justice left the hearing room.) mr. rankin. chief, have you marked on a yellow sheet of paper a diagram of the third floor of the police headquarters? mr. curry. yes; i have, principally the north end of it. mr. rankin. we will call that exhibit . will you describe briefly for the commission just what you have marked on there now? mr. curry. i have a rough layout of the north end of the third floor of the police and courts building in dallas, tex. now, this shows the public elevators, the lobby way in front of the elevators, and then a hall that extends the length of the third floor from north to south. in the extreme north end there is a small press room where ordinarily the news media stay from early morning until late at night to cover police events. i have also marked off the other bureaus that are located on this floor, the burglary and theft bureau would be on the west side, and in the northwest corner is the juvenile bureau. the northeast corner is the auto theft bureau, the next going south would be the forgery bureau, and then would be the homicide office or homicide bureau, which is adjacent to a hallway, the north-south hallway, and also the rear office is adjacent to the hall going over to the municipal building which is immediately east of the police and courts building. the entrance to the homicide office is approximately or feet to the entrance to this jail elevator, and it is necessary to bring a prisoner down this hall in order to get him into this jail elevator. each time we--that i observed them move oswald, they were almost overrun by news media. mr. rankin. by overrun, what do you mean? could you describe with a little more definiteness, are you talking about or or ? mr. curry. i will say probably a hundred, at least a hundred that were jammed into this hallway. (at this point, mr. mccloy entered the hearing room.) mr. rankin. were some of them--i will withdraw that question. were some of these people from the news media from the press and others from the radio and others from the television? mr. curry. yes, sir; that is true, sir. (at this point, representative ford entered the hearing room.) mr. rankin. chief curry, you said that mr. nichols came that afternoon. i call to your attention that we have information that he came there on the saturday afternoon. mr. curry. perhaps it was, not the friday. that perhaps was on saturday. mr. rankin. yes. mr. dulles. i wonder if you could just summarize briefly where we are. (discussion off the record.) mr. rankin. back on the record. in regard to mr. nichols, did you know whether or not he offered to represent or provide counsel? mr. curry. yes; he did. mr. rankin. what did he say about that? mr. curry. he said he didn't care to at this time. mr. rankin. what did mr. nichols say about providing counsel? mr. curry. he said the dallas bar would provide counsel if he desired counsel. mr. rankin. that is to mr. oswald? mr. curry. oswald. mr. rankin. what did mr. oswald say? mr. curry. he said, "i don't at this time," he said, "if i can't get mr. abt to represent me or someone from civil liberties union i will call on you later." representative ford. did nichols and oswald talk one to another? mr. curry. yes; he was taken to see oswald and he talked to him. mr. rankin. and this all occurred at the meeting you have already described? mr. curry. yes, sir. mr. rankin. between mr. nichols and mr. oswald? mr. curry. that is correct. mr. rankin. when you had so many people of the news media in all of your corridors and throughout your police headquarters, did you discuss that with the mayor or any of the other authorities? mr. curry. i don't recall that i specifically discussed this condition. mr. rankin. did you ask for any instructions or advice? mr. curry. no, sir; i didn't. mr. rankin. did you do anything about it that you have not already described? mr. curry. no, sir; i didn't. mr. dulles. did it worry you? mr. curry. yes, sir; it did. i was concerned about it. mr. mccloy. did you have a definite system of checking credentials of these people as they came in? mr. curry. on a particular incident that had occurred previous to this, such as the school integration, we had a plane to fall there one time and we have a regular set up for disaster, whereby the press identify themselves in order to get into a certain area, and their credentials were being checked. now, i have heard it said, not to my knowledge can i tell you this, that jack ruby at one time or sometime during these preceding days, had been seen there and apparently had some press credentials but i was never able to establish that. mr. rankin. you have checked into it? mr. curry. i have inquired into it or had it inquired into. mr. rankin. what did you find out in that regard? mr. curry. i couldn't find out where he had received press credentials from anybody. representative ford. were any press credentials found in his effects? mr. curry. no; not to my knowledge. mr. rankin. when you were having the difficulty with the media that you have described, did you do anything about adding additional guards or anything about additional security? mr. curry. no; we had two men, two uniformed officers right at the homicide door to keep anyone from going in there. as i recall, there was a sergeant, and a couple of reserve officers at the public elevators here, and there were a couple of reservists at this end of the hall to keep them from overrunning into the administrative offices. mr. rankin. i offer in evidence exhibit , mr. chairman. mr. dulles. is that the chart? mr. rankin. yes. mr. dulles. it will be admitted. this is a chart of the third floor. mr. curry. of the police and courts building. mr. dulles. what is the other word? mr. curry. police and courts building. mr. dulles. it will be accepted. (the chart referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification and received in evidence.) mr. rankin. have you done anything to change your procedures in regard to security or how you would handle prisoners in light of this difficulty you had with the media? mr. curry. the city manager and i have discussed the possibility that we are going to in the near future build a new police building. mr. rankin. who is the city manager? mr. curry. elgin crull. he made this statement that when and if we build another building, it will be so designed that the prisoners will not have to be brought through where the general public are permitted or where the press would be permitted. that there will be two sets of halls or hallways where they will be brought down in the rear hallways and admitted into the offices for interrogation. mr. rankin. what did you say about that? mr. curry. i heartily agreed with him. mr. rankin. have you made any other plans for change of security? mr. curry. i have talked to my staff and said if we were ever faced with a thing of such magnitude again that we would not permit the press to come into the building. we would designate a place outside for them and we would just have to take the heat that was given to us by the press for not permitting them in there, but in view of what had happened that we would never permit this to occur again. that we would permit them to have representatives but they would be required to choose their representatives to be present, say, in these hallways or inside the buildings, and the rest of them would be excluded. and regardless of how they treated us in the press for this decision, that is the way it would be in the future. mr. rankin. did you do anything about appearing on television during this time? mr. curry. they had these cameras set up in the hallway, if i can have the exhibit i will show it to you. mr. rankin. yes. that is exhibit . mr. curry. yes, sir. they had cameras set up right here, two or three cameras. mr. rankin. have you marked that with the word "cameras"? mr. curry. yes. and on an occasion or two as i was walking from the homicide office back to my office they would stop me here and try to interrogate me or interview me and they would have the cameras turned on me. mr. rankin. what would you do? mr. curry. they would besiege me with questions about how the investigation was proceeding, and i would on occasion or two i told them i thought it was proceeding very well, that we were obtaining good evidence to substantiate our suspicions, that this was the man that was guilty of the assassination. mr. rankin. did you tell them what evidence you had? mr. curry. i told them on one occasion we had a rifle that had been partially identified by his, as belonging to him. mr. rankin. when did you do that? mr. curry. i believe that was on saturday, i think. mr. rankin. about what time of the day? mr. curry. i don't recall exactly. i think it was in the afternoon. it might have been friday night. mr. rankin. did you tell them about any other evidence that you had? mr. curry. i don't recall, sir, whether i did or not. there was so much confusion that i can't recall exactly the times and exactly what was said. i think this is documented, perhaps. mr. rankin. where? mr. curry. on the tv film. mr. rankin. i see. did you give out any interviews to the newspapers? mr. curry. i don't recall giving any interviews to newspapers. mr. rankin. any news releases? mr. curry. not that i recall. mr. dulles. do you recall having told them that you had sent a radio order out to surround the book depository? mr. curry. i didn't do that, sir. that was one of my inspectors, i believe that gave that order. i was riding in the presidential parade and approximately a hundred feet, i guess, ahead of the president's car, and when we heard this first report, i couldn't tell exactly where it was coming from. representative ford. what report are you talking about now? mr. curry. a sharp report as a firecracker or as it was it was the report of this rifle. we were just approaching an underpass, and there were some people around on each side of the underpass, up in the railroad yards, and i thought at first that perhaps this was a railroad torpedo, it was a sharp crack. inspector--no, it wasn't inspector, it was lawson of the secret service and mr. sorrels of the dallas office of the secret service, and sheriff bill decker and myself were in this car. mr. dulles. i may be anticipating. mr. rankin. that is all right, go right ahead. mr. curry. i said what was that, was that a firecracker, or someone said this. i don't recall whether it was me or someone else, and from the report i couldn't tell whether it was coming from the railroad yard or whether it was coming from behind but i said over the radio, i said, "get someone up in the railroad yard and check." and then about this time. i believe it was motorcycle officer chaney rode up beside of me and looking back in the rear view mirror i could see some commotion in the president's car and after this there had been two more reports, but these other two reports i could tell were coming behind instead of from the railroad yards. mr. rankin. what do you mean by reports? mr. curry. sharp reports as a rifle or a firecracker, and looking in the rear view mirror then i could see some commotion in president kennedy's car. mr. rankin. you could distinctly hear and tell that the two later reports were from behind? mr. curry. behind. mr. rankin. rather than front? mr. curry. that is right. mr. rankin. you weren't sure whether the first one was from behind or in front? mr. curry. i couldn't tell because perhaps of the echo or the---- representative ford. where were you sitting in the car, sir? mr. curry. i was driving. representative ford. you were driving? mr. curry. yes, sir. representative ford. when you heard the first report, did you grab a communications set and give this order? mr. curry. almost immediately. representative ford. what was the order that you gave? mr. curry. as i recall it, "get someone up in the railroad yard to check those people." there was already an officer up there. mr. rankin. how do you know that? mr. curry. they assigned officers to every overpass. we went with the secret service, batchelor and chief lunday had went over this route with secret service agents lawson and sorrels and they had run the route or days prior to this and pointed out every place where they wanted security officers, and we placed them there where they asked for them. mr. rankin. did you see an officer there when you looked up? mr. curry. i couldn't recognize him, but i could see an officer whoever it was. representative ford. did you get this order over the pa system before the second and third shots? mr. curry. i don't believe so, i am not sure. i am not positive. because they were in pretty rapid succession. but after i noticed some commotion in the president's car and a motorcycle officer ran up aside of me and i asked him what had happened and he said shots had been fired, and i said, "has the president been hit or has the president's party been hit? and he said, "i am sure they have." i said, "take us to the hospital immediately," and i got on the radio and i told them to notify parkland hospital to stand by for an emergency, and this is approximately, i would say, perhaps a couple of miles or so to parkland hospital from this, and we went to parkland and i notified them to have them to be standing by for an emergency, and we went out there under siren escort and went into the emergency entrance. as i recall, i got out of the car and rushed to the emergency entrance and told them to bring the stretchers out, and they loaded the president, president kennedy and governor connally onto stretchers and took them into the hospital. mrs. kennedy, i went into the hospital, and i know she was outside the door of where they were working with the president, and someone suggested to her that she sit down and she was very calm, and she said, "i am all right. some of your people need to sit down more than i do." but everyone was very concerned. i remained around the hospital. i was contacted by some of the special sergeants who asked me to stand by in my car and get another car and take the president, then vice president johnson to love field. mr. rankin. you have told us about that, haven't you? mr. curry. yes; i have told you about that. mr. rankin. and you told us you attended the swearing in of president johnson? mr. curry. yes; i did. mr. rankin. and that you waited until the plane left and then you came back? mr. curry. to my offices. mr. rankin. and judge hughes left at the same time? mr. curry. yes. mr. rankin. now, did you do anything about the assassination after this or at some time? mr. curry. no. i left this to be handled by captain fritz who is in charge of all homicide investigations. mr. rankin. do you know whether anything was done, did you make inquiry? mr. curry. yes; he told me they were interrogating him, oswald about the assassination and trying to check on the movements of oswald, and they obtained, i understand, some search warrants to go out and search, they found out where he had been staying. mr. rankin. what about the building immediately after the occasion? mr. curry. it was sealed off, inspector sawyer who is a uniformed police inspector, i think was the first ranking officer to the school depository building. he would have had to come perhaps blocks. i believe he told me that he was about at akard and maine when this came on the air that we had had some trouble down there. mr. rankin. you say you imagine. is this something that they reported to you? mr. curry. yes. he told me later that he did immediately go to the scene of the texas--of where the shots were fired from. mr. rankin. what did he tell you he did then? mr. curry. he took charge of the investigation. mr. rankin. what did he do about the building? mr. curry. he had it sealed off. this perhaps would have been perhaps, , , minutes after the original---- mr. rankin. about what time? mr. curry. i would say perhaps : . mr. rankin. and was that before or after a description of lee oswald was put on the radio? mr. curry.i couldn't say whether it was before or after. mr. rankin. what else happened? mr. curry. i think he perhaps was the one who gave that description, i am not sure. a deputy chief of services who was in the pilot car ahead of us, was at love field, and he had some more secret service men with him, i believe. mr. rankin. who is that? mr. curry. george lumpkin. george l. lumpkin. he asked me at the hospital if i didn't want him to go back to the texas school book depository and assist in the search of the building and i told him yes, and he did go back, and took over on the search of the building then. mr. rankin. did he report to you later what he did about that? mr. curry. yes, he did. he told me that he had sealed it off and he appointed two search teams to search the building from top to bottom, starting at the bottom and going to the top and starting at the top and going to the bottom. mr. mccloy. who was this man? mr. curry. george l. lumpkin. mr. mccloy. secret service? mr. curry. no. mr. mccloy. on your staff? mr. curry. no; he is a police officer. mr. rankin. was he an assistant chief? mr. curry. he is not an assistant chief. each of the divisions have a deputy chief in charge of them. i have one assistant chief and four deputy chiefs. mr. rankin. and this was a deputy chief? mr. curry. a deputy chief; yes. mr. rankin. under your system the highest civil service status is inspector, is it? mr. curry. that is correct. mr. rankin. and the other officers are appointed? mr. curry. appointed, yes. mr. rankin. by you? mr. curry. by me, yes. mr. rankin. now, these two teams that you referred to that the deputy chief appointed to search the building, do you know how many officers were in those teams? mr. curry. no, sir; i don't. mr. rankin. do you know whether the search was made? mr. curry. they reported to me that it was made, yes. mr. rankin. do you know what else happened in regard to the building or the search for the assassin? mr. curry. after it was searched i understand it was sealed off and they were asked not to let anybody come or go from the building until further orders. mr. rankin. then what happened after that? mr. dulles. could i inquire there. i thought it was sealed off previous to the search according to your previous testimony. mr. curry. it was. but after they searched it and all of the investigators left there, they asked mr. truly, i believe, the building manager, not to let anybody come and go. mr. dulles. was that supplemented, though, by the police? mr. curry. yes; i believe we had officers there. mr. dulles. then there were in a way two sealings off. one that you gave the order was given or minutes---- mr. curry. almost immediately, yes. mr. dulles. after the assassination, and then the other one was after this search had been made. mr. curry. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. there is one element i am not clear on, i may be anticipating, mr. rankin. but i believe we have had some testimony heretofore, that mr.--an officer went in with mr. truly into the building. mr. curry. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. and started to go upstairs, and they ran into oswald on the second floor. was that before the inspector got there? mr. curry. yes, sir; i am sure it was, because this officer was there at the scene. mr. mccloy. do you remember that officer's name? mr. curry. no, sir; i don't. it is in the record. mr. belin. it is officer m. l. baker. he was in the motorcade. mr. mccloy. did m. l. baker purport to seal off the building? mr. curry. no, sir; he didn't. the first officers in there were rushing up to the upper floors. mr. mccloy. the first man who sealed the building was---- mr. curry. i believe will be inspector sawyer. mr. mccloy. inspector sawyer? mr. curry. i believe he would be the first to issue orders. i could be mistaken on that but as i recall he was the first officer. mr. dulles. you did not give those orders yourself? mr. curry. no, sir; not myself. representative ford. how many men participated in the search of the building? mr. curry. i would just have to guess but i would suggest probably people. representative ford. did you check with those who went through this process? mr. curry. no; i didn't check with each individual officer. representative ford. did you get a report? mr. curry. i got a report from inspector sawyer, and also from chief lumpkin as to the manner in which it was searched. representative ford. how long did it take them, do you have any idea? mr. curry. i believe they were, perhaps, maybe a couple of hours altogether, searching that building. representative ford. did they give you an oral or written report on what they found or didn't find? mr. curry. i believe there were some written reports made. i don't recall now. representative ford. if there are written reports could we have them? mr. curry. i think---- mr. rankin. off the record. (discussion off the record.) representative ford. back on the record. are you familiar with any written report, chief, on what transpired during the search of the building? mr. curry. only what deputy chief lumpkin in his report here in a chronological report that we made, and you have this, as best we could, after this occurred, the deputy chiefs and myself all sat down together went over this from the time we received notice that the president would visit dallas until the shooting of oswald, and step by step we tried to go through this as to what we did, and this is what we call a chronological report. representative ford. if there is a report in anybody's files in the dallas police department on what transpired during this investigation of the building, there would be no reason why that report couldn't be made available? mr. curry. no, sir; if we have one it certainly would be made available. representative ford. will you check the files of the department and if there is a report available will you submit it to the commission, please? mr. curry. yes, sir; i was trying to. mr. rankin. chief curry, i think that your chronological report does not purport to go into the detail of how the search was made and so forth. mr. curry. no, sir; it just states in here how chief lumpkin, how he formed the search and it tells something about while he was there. mr. mccloy. the chronological report part of our record yet? mr. belin. we have a chronological report, yes. mr. mccloy. is this the same one as the chief is looking at? mr. rankin. we will check that. mr. dulles. it is not yet an exhibit, is it? mr. rankin. no; we have, and we were discussing yesterday, a number of items in the form of affidavits and other evidence that we will have to introduce into the record of the commission before we get through which has been examined by the staff and in some cases called to the commission's attention but is not formally a matter of record and we will have to complete that before we can complete our report. mr. mccloy. is that the same chronological report that the chief has? mr. curry. if it isn't i can leave you these copies but they were submitted to attorney general carr, two copies. this is what is in this report. "upon arrival,"--this is chief lumpkin--"upon arrival at the texas school book depository we found inspector sawyer was in front of the building and with the assistance of other officers was in the process of detaining anyone or everyone who had any knowledge whatsoever of the shooting. this was discussed with sawyer. we decided that we would get all persons in that category away from the crowd by sending them to sheriff decker's office"--which is about a half block from here--"at main and houston to be held for further interrogation. homicide detective turner was sent to the sheriff's office to represent the homicide bureau of our department and interrogating these witnesses." mr. dulles. that is where the sheriff's office was? mr. curry. main and houston, it runs. "detective senkel was released back to captain fritz to assist in the investigation. he had come down. sawyer had placed guards on the building to prevent anyone from going or coming. sawyer organized a detail to check all persons and automobiles on the parking lot surrounding the texas school book depository building, taking their names, telephone numbers, addresses, places of employment, and later on in the afternoon those vehicles that were not taken out were checked by license number. several of the u.s. alcohol tax units assisted in the search. "at that time lumpkin entered the building and instructed that it be completely sealed off and that no one be allowed to leave or enter." this probably was some, i would say, some or minutes after the original shots were fired. he had gone on to parkland hospital to me and i told him there to return to assist in the handling of this matter. mr. mccloy. in your judgment is that the first sealing off of the building that took place? mr. curry. no; i think inspector sawyer, when he arrived he took some steps to seal off the building. mr. rankin. you have already testified about inspector sawyer and you said you thought he was about or blocks away. mr. curry. i believe so. i believe he was about at main and akard streets which would be about blocks away when he heard of this incident occurring and he immediately went down there. mr. dulles. and the first order to seal off was given some minutes, i think you testified, in that neighborhood? mr. curry. to the best of my knowledge. mr. dulles. after the assassination? mr. curry. yes. mr. rankin. you don't know just what he did about sealing the building, did you? mr. curry. no, sir; i don't. i imagine he placed men on the front and back doors and asked them not to let anyone come or go without finding out who they were. mr. dulles. who would know that fact as to when that order was given, that would be sawyer? mr. rankin. officer sawyer would be the one who would really know that fact? mr. curry. i believe so. mr. rankin. and whatever he would say about it you think would be correct? mr. curry. i do. because we already have a deposition from him that tells about the sealing of the building, and it was not done immediately when he came. representative ford. would it be appropriate at this time to put that deposition in the record at this point? mr. rankin. i wonder if it would be satisfactory to the commission, in view of the inquiry by commissioner ford, if we would, the staff would, tender at this point the portion of the deposition that relates to how the building was sealed, and then have a reference to this point in the place where it is offered in evidence in regular course. representative ford. that would be satisfactory to me as far as the particular point we are discussing at the moment. mr. rankin. we will do that then. now, chief, would you tell us the next thing that you know of that happened about the search for the assassin, after the search of the depository building that you described? mr. curry. the next thing i can tell you about, i remained out, as i say, at love field until the planes departed. i went back to the office. mr. dulles. at about what time would you place that? mr. curry. i believe it was about o'clock i believe when i returned to the office. mr. dulles. it was o'clock when you returned to the office from love field? mr. curry. i believe so, i am not positive. when i arrived they were in the process of, captain fritz and his men, were in the process of investigating this murder of tippit and also the assassination of the president. mr. rankin. did you make an inquiry in regard to the progress? mr. curry. i think i did. i asked him how he was coming along and he said they were making good progress. mr. rankin. then what happened after that? mr. curry. they had had a couple of showups with oswald so witnesses could attempt to identify him. mr. rankin. do you know whether they had gone out to beckley street to the place where he had stayed? mr. curry. i understood they had and i understood they went back the next day. mr. rankin. what do you mean by a showup? mr. curry. well, it is customary when you have suspects in a crime where you have witnesses, that they be taken into a room and allowed, the witnesses, to observe them in the presence of other people. mr. rankin. you have a room for this purpose? mr. curry. yes, sir; we do. mr. rankin. will you describe briefly what that room is like? mr. curry. it is a police assemblyroom where we hold our regular rollcalls. they have a stage whereby prisoners are brought up on this stage. mr. rankin. how large is the room? mr. curry. the room, i would say, is perhaps feet long and feet wide. mr. rankin. who was allowed in the room at the time of this showup? mr. curry. presumably only the news media and police officers. i have been told that jack ruby was seen in this showuproom also. mr. rankin. about what time of the day was that? mr. curry. as i recall, this was fairly late friday night, i believe. mr. rankin. do you know who was there to try to identify lee oswald? mr. curry. no, i don't. the news media, a number of them, had continued to say, "let us see him. what are you doing to him? how does he look?" i think one broadcaster that i had heard or someone had told me about, said that lee harvey oswald is in custody of the police department, and that something about he looked all right when he went in there, they wouldn't guarantee how he would look after he had been in custody of the dallas police for a couple of hours, which intimated to me that when i heard this that they thought we were mistreating the prisoner. mr. rankin. did you do anything about that? mr. curry. i offered then at that time--they wanted to see him and they wanted to know why they couldn't see him and i said we had no objection to anybody seeing him. and when he was being moved down the hall to go back up in the jail they would crowd on him and we just had to surround him by officers to get to take him to the jail elevator to take him back upstairs, to let him rest from the interrogation. mr. rankin. and this showup, how many people attended? mr. curry. i would think perhaps people. i am just making an estimate. i told them if they would not try to overrun the prisoner and not try to interrogate him we would bring him to the showup room. there was--this, thinking also that these newspaper people had been all over love field, and had been down at the assassination scene, and we didn't know but what some of them might recognize him as being present, they might have seen him around some of these places. now, mr. wade, the district attorney, was present, at this time and his assistant was present, and as i recall, i asked mr. wade, i said, "do you think this will be all right?" and he said, "i don't see anything wrong with it." mr. rankin. did you find out where jack ruby was during this showup? mr. curry. i didn't know jack ruby. actually the first time i saw jack ruby to know jack ruby was in a bond hearing or i believe it was a bond hearing, and i recognized him sitting at counsel's table. the impression has been given that a great many of the dallas police department knew jack ruby. mr. rankin. what is the fact in that regard? mr. curry. the fact of that as far as i know there are a very small percentage of the dallas police department that knows jack ruby. mr. rankin. did you make an inquiry to find out? mr. curry. yes; i did, yes, sir. and so far as i know most of the men who knew jack ruby are men who were assigned to the vice squad of the police department or who had worked the radio patrol district where he had places and in the course---- mr. rankin. how many men would that be? mr. curry. i am guessing, perhaps men. this is merely a guess on my part. mr. rankin. how large is your police force? mr. curry. approximately , . i would say , people. i would say less, i believe less than people knew him. from what i have found out since then that he is the type that if he saw a policeman, or he came to his place of business he would probably run up and make himself acquainted with him. i also have learned since this time he tried to ingratiate himself with any of the news media or any of the reporters who had anything to do, he was always constantly trying to get publicity for his clubs or for himself. mr. rankin. now, at this showup, is there some screen between the person in custody? mr. curry. there is a time--there wasn't at this time. mr. rankin. why not? mr. curry. no particular reason. they just, a lot of the news media say they didn't think they could see him up there or couldn't get pictures of him up there and we brought him in there in front of the screen and kept him there as i recall only about or minutes and shoving up close to him and taking shots of him and took him upstairs and i believe the district attorney and his assistant stayed down and perhaps talked to the news media for several minutes. but we took harvey oswald back upstairs and i think i went back to my office. mr. dulles. this was the evening of friday, was it not? mr. curry. i believe so, sir. mr. dulles. did you say ruby was present that evening? mr. curry. i have understood he was. but to my own knowledge, i wouldn't have known him because i didn't know him. mr. mccloy. you said you first saw ruby when? mr. curry. in a trial. i believe it was for a bond hearing where they were attempting to get bond for him. and i saw him sitting at a counsel table and recognized him from pictures i had seen of him in the paper. mr. dulles. this is some time before the assassination? mr. mccloy. this is the trial incident to the trial of ruby, as i understand it? mr. dulles. you had not seen him before? mr. curry. no, sir. mr. mccloy. it was a bond hearing incident to the trial? mr. curry. if i had seen him i wouldn't have known him. mr. mccloy. i don't want to again interrupt but i don't know whether we have passed by all of the questions you wanted to ask the chief in regard to the motorcade and the time of the assassination. i thought maybe we might ask him whether or what was his estimate of the speed of the motorcade, for example. mr. rankin. we haven't covered that period because of the way we started, and i think we could go back, chief, if you will, to, say, at the point the motorcade left main street and started down houston, and then down elm up to the time of the shots. will you describe that, where you and what the motorcade consisted of? mr. curry. yes, sir; i was--there was a pilot car ahead of us with deputy chief lumpkin that was perhaps two or three blocks ahead of us and had been preceding us all the way from love field to see that the route was open and reporting back by radio to us, and this was for the purpose, if we had any wrecks or congestion to where it looked like the motorcade could be stopped that we could change our routes and get around them and also to let us know how the crowd was. he had been preceding us all this way. there has been some question as to why this motorcade would not proceed on down main street. mr. rankin. will you explain that to the commission? mr. curry. yes, sir; i can. i will make another diagram here, if you wish me to. mr. rankin. mr. mccloy asked about whether the chronological report that chief curry was examining during part of his testimony was available to the commission. we have now searched the commission files and we find that a copy of that exact report has been available to the commission and we have it here. it is a commission document---- mr. redlich. it is in commission document . . representative ford. will this report be made a part of the record? mr. rankin. we haven't decided that question but we will examine it and report to the commission later if it is not made a part of the record, why we recommend that it not be. it may very well be amongst the documents that would be made part of the record in regular course when we examine all of the material for that purpose. is that a satisfactory handling of it? representative ford. i think it is. i haven't had an opportunity to examine it. but if it is a part of the record, i suspect it ought to be made a part at this point since it has been referred to by the testimony of the chief. but it is something that could be discussed later, and if it should be, it could be put into the record at this point. mr. rankin. i would like to ask leave of the chairman then to examine it with greater care after the testimony of the chief is taken and be able to make it a part of the record at this point unless i report back to the commission that for some reason it would not be desirable. mr. dulles. that would be we would proceed in regard to this chronological report we would proceed in the same way as we have suggested we would with regard to the other depositions that were taken in dallas. mr. rankin. except my offer before, mr. chairman, was that the portion of the deposition that would relate to the matters described, that is the sealing of the building, would, in fact, be incorporated into this record at that point. and that the balance of it would be offered at some later date as a part of the record of the commission. here i wanted to reserve the question as to whether it should be a part of the record because of my desire first to examine it in detail and see if there is any reason why it should not and then report back to the commission. mr. dulles. you will report back to the commission. it will not be excluded unless you so report to the commission. mr. rankin. that is right. mr. dulles. and the reason therefor? mr. curry. this sketch. mr. rankin. will you mark that sketch you have just made exhibit please, and ? (commission exhibits nos. and were marked for identification.) mr. curry. in the diagram, , exhibit , the motorcade was going west on main street, there is a triple underpass there. there are three streets and they converge into one wide street down through a triple underpass, what we call a triple underpass. mr. rankin. where you are talking about the underpass is that underpass on main street? mr. curry. it is just west of houston street and runs parallel with houston street. and main street--now houston street runs in a north-south direction, main street, elm street, and commerce street the three principal streets that empty into this triple underpass are east-west, elm street is a one-way street west, commerce is one-way east, main street is a two-way street going east and west. we had---- mr. rankin. you were going to explain why you couldn't continue right down main. mr. curry. we would--we left the parade route up to the host committee. they chose the route, asking that we go down main street, and then we would go on to what is known as the triple, through the triple underpass onto stemmons expressway. it was necessary to get on this expressway to get to the trade mart, the building where the dinner or luncheon would be held. but had we proceeded on down main street, we could not have gotten onto stemmons expressway unless we had had public works to come in and remove some curbing and build some barricades over it. so, in talking with the secret service people they suggested we come to main street to elm street, turn one block north and turn back west and go through the triple underpass on the elm street side and at this place elm street is two-way. so that was the reason that it was necessary to take this motorcade one block north, and then turn west again in order that we could get on the triple, through the triple underpass onto the stemmons expressway without coming down and removing some curbing or building over the curbing and disturbing the regular flow of traffic. mr. rankin. was there any consideration given prior to establishing the parade route to removing this curbing and going---- mr. curry. no, sir; nothing was said about it at all. in fact, when they were choosing the routes for this parade, we left it entirely up to the host committee and to the secret service. they asked us what we thought about certain routes. we told them what we thought would be the most direct routes, and they chose to come through the downtown area, i think for the purpose they wanted the president to see as much of the people as possible and wanted the people to have an opportunity to see him. mr. rankin. going to the trade mart building would be assumed that you would go by the texas depository building? mr. curry. if we went on stemmons expressway and that is the way they wanted to go. the only other way we could have gone. we could have continued down main street passed through the underpass about a block past there to industrial boulevard and then we would have gone industrial boulevard and made an entrance from the trade mart, from the north side of the trade mart there. but it was decided with the secret service people that we would go main to houston, houston to elm, elm through to triple underpass onto the expressway and the expressway to the trade mart where they would come off and had parking facilities reserved and had a security setup. mr. rankin. will you describe the cars of the---- mr. mccloy. just before that, how far before november was that route decided on? mr. curry. approximately days or so, i believe. that is in this chronological record. mr. dulles. when was this route published? mr. mccloy. that route was published. mr. curry. it was published perhaps days before, a day or two before. mr. rankin. is the elm street route a shorter route than to go by industrial boulevard? mr. curry. it's a more scenic route. the stemmons expressway was and it was easier to travel, traffic is easier to control on it, it is a -lane highway, and the industrial highway is heavily traveled by commercial vehicles and goes through a commercial section of the industrial area. and there was a more scenic route and traffic was more--a freer flow of traffic anyway. mr. rankin. were you involved in the discussion about the choice of route? mr. curry. not particularly. chief batchelor, my assistant chief, and chief lunday. i discussed this some with the secret service agent sorrels, and lawson in a staff meeting at city hall. mr. rankin. what was that discussion? mr. curry. well, we, when i say we, i mean my staff and i, we told them what we thought would be the most direct route. mr. rankin. what did you say that would have been? mr. curry. it would have been to come into lemmon avenue, to central expressway if they were coming through town and over that route. now, if they were going directly to the trade mart it would have been to come in lemmon to inwood road and down inwood to hines, and hines to industrial and industrial into--but this would not have taken them through the downtown area. mr. rankin. then if they were going to go through the downtown area what did you say about the route that should be taken for that? mr. curry. this was probably the most direct route that they chose except they could have come in what we term the central expressway to main street, and then west on main street right down the route that was taken. they chose rather to come in on lemmon avenue to turtle creek, and here again this is a more scenic route and more people would have an opportunity to see the motorcade. and followed turtle creek into cedar springs, to harwood and south on harwood to main street, west on main to houston, north on houston to elm and west on elm to stemmons expressway. mr. rankin. have you described the cars in the motorcade? their positions? mr. curry. i have them listed here, i couldn't tell you other than the front part of the motorcade but they are in this report. mr. rankin. yes. tell us the front part that you recall. mr. curry. i had deputy chief lumpkin, and he had two secret service men with him, i believe, out of washington, and a colonel wiedemeyer who is the east texas section commander of the army reserve in the area, he was with him. they were out about, they were supposed to stay about a quarter of a mile ahead of us and i was in the lead car. mr. rankin. who was with you? mr. curry. inspector, not inspector, but sheriff bill decker, sorrels of the secret service, and mr. lawson, i believe he was out of the washington office of the secret service. and immediately behind us then was the president's car. mr. rankin. you were driving your car? mr. curry. i was driving my car. mr. rankin. you had radio communication in that? mr. curry. yes; i had radio communication with my motorcycle officers, with my downtown office, and secret service had a portable radio that they had radio contact with their people. mr. rankin. yes. now, what was in the next car. mr. curry. the president's party was in that car. then following him was the secret service vehicle and then i understand was the vice president's car, and then behind him was a secret service car. and then they had cars lined up as listed in this report here, how they were lined up after that. mr. rankin. now, after you turned the corner off of main going onto houston, will you describe what happened as you recall it? mr. curry. nothing unusual occurred. we were, i would say traveling perhaps miles an hour, would be the ordinary speed to make a turn, and probably was making that speed after we made a turn from north, going north on houston to west on elm street, and---- mr. rankin. did you slow down for the turn onto elm? mr. curry. perhaps just a little. i would say we were probably going to miles an hour. and as we were moving downward the triple underpass which is about an ordinary block we were beginning to pick up a little speed. mr. rankin. how much of a descent is there between where the depository building is and the place in the underpass? mr. curry. it is a pretty good little drop. within the space of a block it drops down enough to go under an underpass. mr. rankin. it would be more than the height of a car? mr. curry. yes; two heights. mr. rankin. two heights. mr. curry. i think it is a - or -foot clearance. mr. rankin. trucks could get under that? mr. curry. yes. mr. rankin. then what happened? mr. curry. then we heard this report. mr. rankin. now, how far along from the corner of elm and houston were you at the time of that? mr. curry. i think we were perhaps a couple of hundred feet or so. mr. rankin. how fast were you going then? mr. curry. i think we were going between or miles an hour, maybe up to miles an hour. mr. rankin. then what happened? mr. curry. we heard this report, and then all of the tension that followed i have told you. mr. rankin. yes. mr. dulles. what was the distance between your car and the president's car approximately? mr. curry. mr. dulles, i believe to the best of my knowledge it would have been , feet. mr. dulles. between your car and the president's car? mr. curry. yes, we stayed pretty close to them. in the planning of this motorcade, we had had more motorcycles lined up to be with the president's car, but the secret service didn't want that many. mr. rankin. did they tell you why? mr. curry. we actually had two on each side but we wanted four on each side and they asked us to drop out some of them and back down the motorcade, along the motorcade, which we did. mr. rankin. how many motorcycles did you have? mr. curry. i think we had four on each side of him. mr. rankin. how many did you want to have? mr. curry. we actually had two on each side side but we wanted four on each side and they asked us to drop out some of them and back down the motorcade, along the motorcade, which we did. mr. rankin. so that you in fact only had two on each side of his car? mr. curry. two on each side and they asked them to remain at the rear fender so if the crowd moved in on him they could move in to protect him from the crowd. mr. rankin. who asked him to stay at the rear fender? mr. curry. i believe mr. lawson. mr. rankin. the secret service man? mr. curry. yes, sir. also we had planned to have captain fritz and some of his homicide detectives immediately following the president's car which we have in the past, we have always done this. mr. rankin. now, would that be between the president's car and the secret service? mr. curry. and the secret service. we have in past done this. we have been immediately behind the president's car. mr. rankin. did you propose that to someone? mr. curry. yes, sir. mr. rankin. who did you propose it to? mr. curry. to mr. lawson and mr. sellers. mr. rankin. what did they say about that? mr. curry. they didn't want it. mr. rankin. did they tell you why? mr. curry. they said the secret service would be there. mr. rankin. and then? mr. curry. they said we can put this vehicle in between captain fritz and his detectives immediately at the end of the motorcade. they said, "no, we want a white or marked car there bringing up the rear," so fritz and his men were not in the motorcade. mr. dulles. what do you mean in the past when there have been previous presidents visiting dallas or other dignitaries? mr. curry. yes; that is right; other dignitaries. yes; our thinking along this was that in the past there have been this. captain fritz, he is a very experienced homicide man so are his detectives. they know the city very well. they have been there very, captain fritz to my knowledge, over years. it is customary that they in trying to protect a person if they are in the immediate vicinity, and captain fritz told me later, he said, "i believe that had we been there we might possibly have got that man before he got out of that building or we would have maybe had the opportunity of firing at him while he was still firing" because they were equipped, would have been equipped with high-powered rifles and machineguns, submachine guns. representative ford. where were they instead of being at the motorcade. mr. curry. actually they were not in the motorcade at all. they followed up the motorcade. representative ford. were they in a car following up the motorcade? mr. curry. yes, sir; they were in a car. representative ford. how far away would they have been? mr. curry. i think they would have been at the rear, i believe. representative ford. captain fritz is going to be here later. mr. rankin. yes. representative ford. and fill in what he did at that time? mr. rankin. yes. mr. curry. but we tried to do what the secret service asked us to do, and we didn't try to override them because we didn't feel it was our responsibility, that it was their responsibility to tell us what they wanted and we would try to provide it. mr. rankin. did you refuse to do anything that they asked you to do? mr. curry. no, sir; not to my knowledge we don't--we didn't refuse them to do anything. mr. dulles. you considered them to be the boss in this particular situation? mr. curry. yes, sir; the secret service; yes, sir. mr. rankin. do you know or can you tell us approximately where the president's car was at the time of the first shot that you heard? mr. curry. to the best of my knowledge, i would say it was approximately halfway between houston street and the underpass, which would be, i would say probably - feet west of houston street. mr. rankin. can you give us the approximate location of where it was when you heard the second shot? mr. curry. well, it would have been just a few feet further because these shots were in fairly rapid succession. mr. rankin. how many feet do you mean? mr. curry. i would say perhaps, and this is just an estimate on my part, perhaps or feet further along. mr. rankin. then at the time of the third shot? mr. curry. a few feet further, perhaps - feet further. mr. rankin. do you have an opinion as to the time that expired between the first shot and the third shot? mr. curry. this is just an opinion on my part but i would think perhaps or seconds. mr. rankin. did you hear any more than three shots? mr. curry. no, sir; i did not. mr. rankin. are you sure of that? mr. curry. i am positive of that. i heard three shots. i will never forget it. mr. rankin. do you have something, mr. mccloy? mr. mccloy. i was going to ask you, chief, as you were approaching the underpass you were looking toward the underpass presumably? mr. curry. that is right. mr. mccloy. was the underpass bare of people or were there people on it? mr. curry. no; i could see some people on each side but not immediately over, but there were some people up in the railroad yard. i also could see an officer up there. i don't know who the officer was. mr. mccloy. you could recognize an officer on the top of the underpass? mr. curry. yes; their instructions had been to place officers on every overpass and in every underpass. mr. mccloy. how close were you then to the underpass when you first heard that shot? mr. curry. oh, perhaps feet or feet or so. mr. mccloy. so you are convinced that the shot could not come from the overpass? mr. curry. i don't believe it did; no, sir. mr. mccloy. then---- mr. curry. because there didn't seem to be any commotion going on over there. this seemed to be people that i could see, they didn't seem to run or anything. they just seemed to be there. mr. mccloy. you spoke of the railroad yard. just where is that railroad yard in relation to the underpass? we will see that. mr. curry. it is over---- mr. mccloy. it is on the other side. mr. curry. yes, sir. you see these tracks. mr. rankin. mark that as exhibit and you can refer to. mr. curry. yes; here is the school book depository. the railroad goes over. mr. dulles. this aerial view of the elm street there, isn't it of the underpass, will be admitted as . (commission exhibit no. was marked for identification, and received in evidence.) mr. mccloy. do you call that the railroad yards? mr. curry. yes; that is true. mr. mccloy. above the underpass? mr. curry. yes. mr. mccloy. did you see a number of people in the railroad yard? mr. curry. i would estimate maybe a half dozen. mr. dulles. they were spectators or were they workmen. they were spectators? mr. curry. yes, sir; as well as i was able to tell. they might have been workmen, too, but i presume it was people who were in the area and as the motorcade approached they got into position where they perhaps could have seen it. mr. mccloy. did you recognize any officer amongst them? mr. curry. i seemed to recall seeing a uniformed police officer up there. mr. mccloy. in the railroad yard, and there was no commotion amongst the railroad yard people? mr. curry. i don't believe so. representative ford. do you know who the officer was? mr. curry. no, sir; but i believe by looking at the assignments we could determine what officer was up there. there is an assignment of personnel which has been submitted for the record. (discussion off the record.) mrs. rankin. on the record, we will supply for the purposes of this record the name of the officer and check it with chief curry, who was on the underpass or really the over part of the pass. mr. curry. really over. mr. rankin. at the time of the motorcade. representative ford. who determined there should be one, not more officers at an overpass? mr. curry. deputy chief lunday and assistant chief batchelor went over this route with sorrels, and i believe lawson was with them. and they were the ones who determined how many men would be placed at each location. mr. rankin. the inquiry i think particularly is did the secret service decide it would be one or did you decide it would be one? mr. curry. no; it would be the secret service because we just let them tell us how many men they wanted. the only deviation we made from that was in the security of the trade mart. i believe they requested men, as i recall to secure the trade mart, and i believe we supplied them with or men, somewhat in excess of what they asked for at this location. i called the state police, and they furnished a number of men, about men, and sheriff decker furnished about , and i think we furnished from our department everybody that they asked for really, so we had a surplus. representative ford. but the details as to how many men should be placed where were determined by lawson and sorrels of the secret service? mr. curry. that is right, sir; yes, sir. (at this point senator cooper entered the hearing room.) mr. mccloy. may i ask one question? as you were leading this or just ahead of the president's car, as you came around past the school depository building, was there anything that attracted your attention to the building at all as you went by? mr. curry. not at all. mr. mccloy. there was no movement or anything? mr. curry. not at all. mr. mccloy. you weren't conscious of looking up at the windows? mr. curry. not at all. mr. mccloy. you had secret service men in that car with you? mr. curry. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. were they inspecting the windows as they went by? mr. curry. it seemed that sorrels, he was looking around a whole lot and so was lawson. i know comments were being made along the route as to first one thing and then another. mr. dulles. if you had had the other car with police officers in it to which you referred and which i gathered you recommended what would have been the function and duties of the officers in that particular car? mr. curry. it would have been, of course, to guard the president, but in the event that anything happened they would have immediately dropped out of their car with rifles and submachine guns. that was what we had planned. mr. rankin. now, as a part of the plans for the motorcade, was there anything said about the inspection of buildings along the route? mr. curry. the comment was made that in a city like this how in the world could you inspect or put somebody in every window of every building. mr. rankin. who said that? mr. curry. this was in a discussion with the secret service. i don't recall exactly who said this. mr. rankin. was it the secret service people or your people? mr. curry. i don't know whether it was us or secret service. but this was discussed. i think it was secret service who told us how they always dreaded having to go through a downtown area where there were these skyscraper buildings. mr. rankin. do you know of any effort that was made to search any of the buildings? mr. curry. not to my knowledge. we did put some extra men from the special service bureau in the downtown area to work in midblocks to watch the crowd and they were not specifically told to watch buildings but they were told to watch everything. mr. rankin. where were they located? mr. curry. on the route down main street. we didn't have any between elm street and the railroad yard. mr. rankin. but you say in midblock? mr. curry. yes, sir; especially midblock along the route through the downtown area. mr. rankin. where would the downtown area be? mr. curry. it would be from harwood street down to houston street. mr. rankin. chief curry, do you know whether officers foster and white were on the underpass? mr. curry. i would have to look at the assignment sheet to determine that, sir. mr. mccloy. may i ask at this point, unless i may be interfering with your examination, but was it usual for the representatives of the news media to attend showups in the police headquarters apart from this incident? mr. curry. it was not unusual. this was not setting a precedent. mr. mccloy. it was not unusual. representative ford. in such a showup where they are present, are they shielded from the person brought in for identification? mr. curry. are they shielded from---- representative ford. from the person who is brought up for identification? mr. curry. ordinarily the person who is brought up for identification would be behind the screen, behind this silk screen. this is for the purpose of protecting the person who is going to try to identify him more than trying to protect the person who is being shown up because witnesses ofttimes have a fear of facing someone that they are asked to identify. for this reason this screen was provided where the prisoner could not see out, but the people can see in. it is much like a one-way glass. representative ford. that was used in this case? mr. curry. no; this was not used. we just brought him in front of it. representative ford. any particular reason why he was put in front of it? mr. curry. they asked us if we wouldn't bring him out there, they didn't think their cameras would show through the screen. and as i repeated, when this was brought up, i asked mr. wade, the district attorney, if he saw anything wrong with this and he said "no; i don't see anything wrong with this," so we agreed to do this. representative ford. who was in charge of the actual showup operation? mr. curry. the jail personnel would have brought him down from downstairs and brought him into the room and then removed him. representative ford. who handled the actual process of identification or attempted identification by various witnesses? mr. curry. usually captain fritz or some of his homicide detectives are present. i know when they were having a showup for a little lady, i don't know her name but she was a waitress who observed the shooting of the officer, i just--i wasn't there during the entire showup but i was present part of the showup and captain fritz was asking her to observe these people and see if she could pick out the man she saw who shot the officer and she didn't identify oswald at that time. representative ford. did you say the actual process that was--that took place in these several showups was similar to or different from the showups in other cases? mr. curry. the only one where we didn't have any particular witnesses to show him up to, but the number of the news media had asked if they couldn't see him and it was almost impossible for all of them to see him up in this hallway and we decided that the best thing to do, if we were going to let them see him at all would be to take them and get them into a room, and then there was utter confusion after we did that because they tried to overrun him after we got him there and we immediately removed him and took him back upstairs. representative ford. you mentioned earlier there had been some allegations to the effect that oswald had been badly treated. mr. curry. there was--i didn't hear this myself but someone told me, i don't recall who it was, that some of the news media, i understood this was broadcast over the radio and tv. representative ford. did you investigate that rumor? mr. curry. yes, sir. representative ford. what did you find out? mr. curry. i found he had not been mistreated. representative ford. you checked with all the police personnel who had anything to do with it? mr. curry. everyone i knew about and the only marks on him was, that i could see there was a slight mark on his face up here, and this was received when he was fighting the officers in that theatre, and they had to subdue him and in the scuffle, this episode in the theatre, he apparently received a couple of marks on his face. but he didn't complain to me about it. i think he--one of the times he was coming down the hall someone asked him what was the matter with his eye and he said, "a cop hit me," i believe, or "a policeman hit me." representative ford. did you ask oswald whether he had been mistreated? mr. curry. i don't believe i did, sir. representative ford. but you talked to oswald on one or more occasions? mr. curry. i don't know that i ever asked him any questions at all. i was present during the interrogation, but he was very sullen and arrogant and he didn't have much to say to anybody. fritz, i think did more talking to him than anybody else. representative ford. but not in your presence did he object to any treatment he received from the dallas police force? mr. curry. no, sir; i would like to say for the record that we are very strict on our officers in the treatment of prisoners, and we have a personnel section setup that any person who complains that they have been mistreated by the police officer, a thorough investigation is made, and if it is determined that he has been mistreated in any way, disciplinary action is taken, and on occasion we have, not frequently, but on occasion where we have found that this has been true we have dismissed personnel for mistreating a prisoner, so our personnel know positively this is not tolerated regardless of who it is. mr. rankin. chief, you have described a showup, and you have also described the general practice. you have also described showups in regard to oswald and you said there were several of them. mr. curry. when i said several, to the best of my knowledge there were perhaps three altogether. mr. rankin. yes, one you were describing when the screen was not used was not for the purpose of identification, is that right? mr. curry. no, sir; unless some of the news media had come forward and said, "we saw that man"; you see a lot of that news media, that was present, were with the presidential party and there is a possibility that some of them might have said we saw this man to leave the scene. mr. rankin. so the principal reason was to allow the news media? mr. curry. the principal reason was at their request that they be allowed to see the prisoner. mr. rankin. and he wasn't placed back of the screen at that time? mr. curry. no, sir; he was not. mr. rankin. and whatever identification there would be would be under the hope that they might have seen him? mr. curry. they might have seen him because a great number of the news media were at the scene of the shooting or in the immediate area. mr. rankin. and that is the particular showup when you learned later jack ruby was supposed to have been present? mr. curry. i was told that he was present. that someone had seen him back in this room. he easily could have been there as far as i was concerned because i wouldn't have known him from anyone else. mr. rankin. at the other showups, were witnesses there to try to identify oswald? mr. curry. yes, there were. mr. rankin. how were those handled, do you know? mr. curry. exactly the same manner except that he was brought in behind the screen, and was handcuffed to some police officers or other prisoners. mr. rankin. do you know who was there to try to identify him? mr. curry. only on one occasion. this was a little lady that was a waitress. mr. rankin. mrs. markham? mr. curry. i believe her name was mrs. markham. mr. rankin. do you believe whether she was able to identify him? mr. curry. yes, i heard her tell captain fritz that was the man she saw shoot the officer. mr. rankin. and that was officer tippit? mr. curry. yes, sir. mr. rankin. what kind of a reputation did officer tippit have with the police force? mr. dulles. could i ask one question before that. were you present when any members of oswald's family, his wife, his mother, saw him or talked with him? mr. curry. no, sir; i was not. mr. dulles. do you know whether any of your officers were? mr. curry. i understood they were brought to the third floor of the city hall and were placed in a room, and that if any of them were present it probably would have been captain fritz. mr. dulles. he would know about it? mr. curry. i believe he would, yes. mr. dulles. thank you. mr. rankin. will you tell us what officer tippit's reputation was with your police force? mr. curry. he had a reputation of being a very fine, dedicated officer. mr. rankin. how long had he been with you? mr. curry. i believe he came to work for us in , after he had had service in the paratroopers, i believe, and he had made several jumps into europe. he was raised in a rural community, and he was very well thought of by the people in the community where he grew up. he was a rather quiet, serious minded young man. he seemed to be very devoted to his family, and he was an active church man. mr. rankin. what was his rank? mr. curry. patrolman. he was not a real aggressive type officer. in fact, he seemed to be just a little bit shy, if you were to meet him, i believe, shy, retiring type, but certainly not afraid of anything. i think in his personnel investigation it showed that during, as he was growing up, sometimes his shyness was mistaken for perhaps fear, but that it only took a time or two for someone to exploit this to find out it wasn't fear. it was merely a quiet, shy-type individual. mr. rankin. was there any record in the police department of any disciplinary action toward him? mr. curry. the only disciplinary action ever taken was he was given a day off one time because he had missed court on two occasions. mr. dulles. missed what? mr. curry. missed court. mr. rankin. he had been unable to testify or something? mr. curry. yes, sir; in city court they have to appear day a week. they are notified each week to appear but they are told on one day will be their court day and if any cases coming up it would be that time. and on two occasions he failed to appear. i think one time he forgot it and i think another time he said he was tied up on a radio call or something and didn't notify him and it is just a departmental policy if you miss court twice you are given a day off for it. mr. rankin. was that the penalty that was imposed? mr. curry. yes, it was. he took it in very good graces, he didn't feel like he was being mistreated. mr. rankin. that was the only disciplinary action against him? mr. curry. yes, sir; there was one other complaint in his file, where he had stopped a lady and given her a ticket and also had given her, he gave her two tickets, one for no operator's license, and after he had issued the tickets she found her driver's license, and she called to him across the street, and said something about she found her license and he told her okay, show it in court, but she thought he was being rather abrupt and discourteous to her, she felt like he should have come back over and taken this ticket for driver's license and destroyed it. under our rules and regulations you cannot destroy a ticket; if it is destroyed it has to be accounted in our auditor's office and that was the only complaint in the years on the force. mr. dulles. a rumor reached me that officer tippit had been some way involved in some narcotic trouble, i don't know what the foundation of that is. do you know anything about that at all? mr. curry. nothing whatsoever; no, sir. representative ford. you mean you know nothing about it or you checked it out and there is no validity? mr. curry. this is the first i ever heard of it that he was involved in any narcotics. representative ford. but your records, so far as you know, would not indicate such? mr. curry. no, sir. mr. dulles. thank you. mr. mccloy. did you, so far as you know, did tippit know ruby? mr. curry. i don't believe he did. i am sure he didn't. he would not be the type i think that would even have any occasion to know him because some of the officers that we found that did know him, either worked in the area where he had a night club or some of the officers that worked in the vice squad who had occasion to go in and inspect these cases or a few officers we found they went out there for social purposes, outside their regular duty. tippit, for a number of years, had been assigned out in oak cliff. i don't think he had ever been assigned in an area where jack ruby--well jack ruby did live in oak cliff but i am sure, to the best of my knowledge, tippit never had any occasion to be around jack ruby. mr. dulles. was tippit at the time he was killed on a regular assigned assignment or was he just roving in a particular area? mr. curry. on this particular day, now he had been assigned to oak cliff for several months farther out than he was, but when this incident occurred at the texas school book depository, this is customary policy in the police department if something happens on this district and tying up several squads that the squads from the other district automatically move in in a position where they can cover off or something else might happen here, much the same as fire equipment does, this is automatic. mr. rankin. will you explain that further? mr. curry. yes, sir; say two squads were to get a call in an area, and this area here, say they had a big fire or something, they brought two or three squads in here from adjoining districts, then automatically these squads out in these other areas would begin to cover off or get in a position to where if instead of staying out here on the far side of this district, they would perhaps move into this district right here where they could answer here, here or over into here. this is just automatic patrol policy. on this particular day, some of the squads in this oak cliff area had been ordered over into the dallas area, this texas school book depository, and some of these other outlying squads then, i think we have this on a radio log, i don't know whether you have this or not, were or . mr. ball. why don't you read it in the record, a definite order for tippit to come in there. mr. curry. right here. this would have been at approximately : , i believe. here is the description came out at about : . the dispatcher put out a description of attention all squads. mr. dulles. what do you mean by description? mr. curry. of a suspect. mr. dulles. i see, description of oswald? mr. curry. yes. mr. rankin. what are you reading from, chief? mr. curry. this is radio log record from the dallas police department, as recorded on november . mr. rankin. is that from commission document ? mr. dulles. i want to correct my question, it was a man seen leaving? mr. curry. it was a description of a suspect. mr. dulles. you didn't know it was oswald? mr. rankin. will you tell us what the rest of that notation is? mr. curry. dispatcher put out this description, "attention all squads elm and houston, unknown white male person approximately , slender build, height feet , pounds, reported to be armed with what is believed to be a . -caliber rifle. attention all squads, the suspect is believed to be white male , feet inches, slender build, armed with what is thought to be a . - rifle, no further description at this time." this was at : p.m. mr. rankin. what channel are you talking about? mr. curry. channel . mr. rankin. you had more than one channel? mr. curry. two channels. mr. rankin. yes. mr. curry. someone came in, they didn't identify themselves and came in and said what are they wanted for, and they said signal which is a shooting under our code involving the president. representative ford. did tippit's motorcycle have channel ? mr. curry. he was in a squad car and most of our squad cars have channel and , but they stay on channel unless they are instructed to switch over to channel . mr. dulles. he did have channel ? mr. curry. yes. now within the minute of broadcasting, a little further on, squads and checked out at elm and houston, came in the district squad, that was an oak cliff squad. he said "i will be going north from industrial on corinth." that means he was leaving the oak cliff section coming toward the downtown section of dallas. representative ford. by he who do you mean? mr. curry. the man assigned to district , and i don't have his name but it would be on our records. then tippit was working and he along with district , which is further out in oak cliff, at about : , between : and : , the dispatcher sent out this message to him, " - moving into central oak cliff area." now the central oak cliff area would have been the area nearby where this shooting occurred. representative ford. shooting of tippit? mr. curry. shooting of tippit occurred. i am sure--a little later on here, he says "you are in oak cliff area, are you not," and he said "at lancaster and th", that would be just several blocks from where this shooting then occurred. mr. mccloy. this is tippit's reply going in? mr. curry. yes. mr. rankin. the next sentence also says something, chief? mr. curry. and the dispatcher told him, "you will be at large for any emergency that comes in." in other words, he was one of the remaining squads in oak cliff that was in service. mr. dulles. what does that mean, scout around the area? mr. curry. anywhere in that central area, oak cliff. mr. mccloy. did he reply to that? mr. curry. he said " - ". mr. rankin. what does that mean? mr. curry. it means message received. mr. rankin. doesn't that mean approval? mr. curry. yes, sir. representative ford. these are transcriptions of communications back and forth? mr. curry. that is recorded on our radio there in dallas. mr. rankin. is there a tape recorder on that? mr. curry. yes; and it is kept for a permanent record. mr. rankin. was there any other shooting in this particular area where officer tippit was that morning, do you know? mr. curry. not to my knowledge. mr. dulles. is that - message the last message you received from tippit? mr. curry. as far as i know that is the last word we heard from him. mr. mccloy. was this description of the suspect the first description that went out? mr. curry. as far as i know, it is. mr. dulles. that was at : , as i recall. mr. curry. approximately, yes. (discussion off the record.) mr. rankin. when did you first learn of officer tippit's murder? mr. curry. while i was out at parkland hospital. that is after we had taken the president there and the governor, and we were waiting there. mr. rankin. now, on these showups for lee oswald, did you have any special security arrangements about bringing him in among all this crowd of news people? mr. curry. we had some police officers bringing him down. i was there, captain fritz went, i don't believe he went inside the door. he went to the door, i believe. there were several officers there, yes. mr. rankin. was this more than usual? mr. curry. perhaps so; yes. ordinarily there would have been maybe a jailer and a jail guard with the prisoner. and there would have been the detective out with the witnesses. mr. rankin. were you disturbed about the security for lee oswald with all this crowd? mr. curry. not at that time. i really didn't suspect any trouble from the news media. i thought they were there doing a professional job of reporting the news and i had no reason to be concerned about the news media. mr. rankin. did it concern you that there were so many additional people to try to keep track of as well as---- mr. curry. yes, sir; it did. mr. rankin. what did you do about it? mr. curry. i didn't do anything about it but i was concerned about it. i was thinking that we were going to have to, in the event we have had an incident like this occur again, that we would have to make some different arrangements for the press. we couldn't, when i say the press, the news media, we couldn't have the city hall overrun like this. mr. rankin. did it occur to you to do anything about stopping it right then? mr. curry. no. i didn't discuss it with any of my staff that we should clear all these people out of here and get them outside the city hall. mr. rankin. you gave no consideration to that kind of approach? mr. curry. not at the time. mr. rankin. now after the interrogation of oswald, did you make some decision about moving him? mr. curry. not at that particular time. it is customary after we file on a person that he be removed from the city hall. mr. rankin. what do you mean by file on a person? mr. curry. file a case against him and that is necessary to go to the district attorney's office usually, and in this case the district attorney was there and we filed it at the city hall because the district attorney was with us. mr. rankin. a criminal complaint? mr. curry. a criminal complaint. after we file this complaint it is customary for the prisoner to be transferred from the city to the county jail and to remain in custody until he makes bond or is brought to trial. mr. rankin. that is a regular practice? mr. curry. yes, sir. these transfers are usually made by the sheriff's office, sometime during the morning. mr. rankin. by the sheriff's office you mean it is the sheriff's responsibility? mr. curry. routine transfers are made. it is not a hard and fast custom. many times we will take the prisoner to the sheriff. mr. rankin. who decides which way you will do it? mr. curry. it is left up to the bureau commander. mr. rankin. what do you mean by the bureau commander? mr. curry. that is handling the case. mr. rankin. who would that be in this case? mr. curry. in this case it would have been captain fritz. mr. rankin. and he decides then in all cases of this type whether or not the police will take him across to the sheriff's jail or the sheriff will come and get him? mr. curry. yes, sir; ordinarily it wouldn't even come to my attention how it was handled. mr. rankin. did it come to your attention this time? mr. curry. it did this time. i had asked, it seemed to me like it was on saturday after he had been filed on late or early friday morning, the news media many times had asked me when are you going to transfer him and i said, "i don't know." mr. rankin. what do you mean by "early friday morning?" mr. curry. i mean early saturday morning. late friday night or early saturday morning. representative ford. where do you actually do this filing? mr. curry. ordinarily our detectives would go down to the courthouse which is right near where the president was assassinated and file it in the district attorney's office. however, in this case the district attorney and also his assistant was up at the city hall with us, and we drew up the complaints there at the city hall. mr. rankin. who do you mean by we? mr. curry. when i say we, i mean the dallas police officers and the homicide officers working in this case. mr. rankin. i see. representative ford. what evidence did you have at that point? mr. curry. i couldn't tell you all the evidence. i think captain fritz can tell you better than i. captain fritz just told me on friday afternoon he said, "we have sufficient evidence to file a case on oswald for the murder of tippit." later on that night, somewhere around midnight, i believe, he told me, he said, "we now have sufficient evidence to file on lee harvey oswald for the assassination of president kennedy." he told me he had talked it over with henry wade and with the assistant district attorney and they agreed we had enough evidence to file a case, and a decision was made then to file the case, which we did. representative ford. at that time you had the rifle, did you not? mr. curry. yes, sir. representative ford. who made the original identification of the rifle, the kind of rifle that it was? mr. curry. i don't know, sir. representative ford. it was reported that the original identification was a . mauser. are those reports true or untrue? mr. curry. i wouldn't know, sir. representative ford. you don't know? mr. curry. i don't know. representative ford. do you know when it was finally determined that it was not a . mauser? mr. curry. no, sir; i don't know that. mr. mccloy. as far as i know there was no police report that it was a . rifle. (discussion off the record.) mr. rankin. chief curry, do you know of any police records of your police department that showed that this weapon that was purportedly involved in the assassination was a mauser rifle? mr. curry. no, sir; not to my knowledge. representative ford. all of your records show affirmatively it was the italian rifle? mr. curry. yes, sir. that is correct. mr. mccloy. while we are waiting for mr. rankin to continue his examination, let me ask you this question, chief. did you, prior to the assassination, know or hear of oswald? mr. curry. never. mr. mccloy. didn't hear that he had been--there was a defector named oswald in the city of dallas? mr. curry. no, sir. mr. mccloy. never heard of his name? mr. curry. we didn't have it in our files. representative ford. was there anything in your files that lee harvey oswald had been involved with the dallas police force? mr. curry. no, sir. representative ford. no record whatsoever? mr. curry. no, sir. mr. dulles. was there any record of his having made a trip to the soviet union and returned? mr. curry. not in our files. mr. dulles. and returned to texas? mr. curry. we didn't have anything in our files regarding lee harvey oswald. senator cooper. could i follow up on that, did you have any record of any individuals, persons, in dallas, or the area, who because of any threats of violence against the president or any communist background required you to take any special security measures? mr. curry. yes, sir; when we have notables, celebrities visiting us, there are some groups in dallas that are known to be extreme rightwing and extreme leftwing groups. we try to keep track of these people and what their plans are. we have been able to infiltrate most of their organizations. senator cooper. now prior to the president's visit, did you take any--did the dallas police force take any special security measures about any persons that you might suspect of possible violence? mr. curry. yes, sir; we kept some people under surveillance or groups under surveillance. we had prior to this visit, we had some information brought to us, i don't know who brought it to us, that there was a man in sherman or denison, who said that he is going to see that the president was embarrassed when he came to dallas. senator cooper. who was that man, do you know? mr. dulles. we have a secret service report, i believe with regard to this case. here is one from the chief of police of denton, tex. mr. curry. yes; we had some information that the students at north texas were planning some demonstrations. senator cooper. my question is, did your police force take any special security measures about anyone that you felt might be capable of violence against the president? mr. curry. not at this particular time, because we had reports from the different groups, and we had information from inside these groups that they were not planning to do anything on the day the president was there. we knew that general walker was out of the city, and we knew that his group that sometimes put on demonstrations. senator cooper. when you say planning, you are not limiting it to any violence, but you are talking about any possible demonstrations? mr. curry. yes; demonstrations. senator cooper. i want to come back to that point later, but i want to ask this, outside of what you had in your police files, your records, did you know yourself, or did you know whether anyone in authority in the police force or anyone in the police force, to your knowledge, had any knowledge of the presence of oswald in dallas? mr. curry. no, sir; i have asked my criminal intelligence section, which would have been the persons who had knowledge of this. senator cooper. had anyone informed you that he was working in the texas school book depository building? mr. curry. no, sir. mr. dulles. had he ever tangled with the dallas police in any respect of which there is any record? mr. curry. we have no record at all of him. representative ford. did the secret service people inquire of you as to your knowledge of these various groups that you had infiltrated? mr. curry. i don't remember them specifically asking me what were these groups planning to do. representative ford. did you volunteer any information on it? mr. curry. i think perhaps we told them what we had done. they were aware of the fact that we did know the plans of the various organizations, and i know we sent lieutenant revill and a couple of his men up to denison, or denton, to talk to a man that had purportedly said they were going to embarrass the president and had made some remarks about it and after we talked with him he said, "i won't even be in dallas. i was just popping off. i will assure you i am not even going to be down there. i don't want any part of it." then some of the study group in north texas, we had an informant in this group, and they had decided they would be in dallas with some placards to express opinions about the president or some of his views. some of these people were arrested after the shooting because we were afraid that the people were going to harm them. they were down around the trade mart with some placards. senator cooper. i have a couple of more questions. do you remember the full page advertisement that was in the dallas paper? mr. curry. i saw it; yes. senator cooper. directed against the president of the united states? mr. curry. yes. senator cooper. what date did you give that statement in making any kind of preparations for his visit? mr. curry. in the first place, i didn't think it was very appropriate, it makes us apprehensive, a little more apprehensive of the security of the president, but we were doing everything that i knew we could do to protect him. i will never forget that as we turned to go down toward that underpass the remark was made, "we have almost got it made," and i was very relieved that we had brought him through this downtown area, and were fixing to get on this expressway where we could take him out to the trade mart where we had a tremendous amount of security set up for him. senator cooper. since the assassination, have you had any actual factors or any evidence or information of any kind which would indicate that any person other than oswald was involved in the assassination of president kennedy? mr. curry. no, sir; i have not. mr. dulles. was any investigation made of, i believe it was weissman, or somebody by that name, who inserted this advertisement to which senator cooper referred, was any particular investigation made? mr. curry. not any investigation by us. (at this point, representative ford withdrew from the hearing room.) mr. mccloy. i have one question. did you since the assassination or before have any information or any credible information which would indicate that there was any connection between ruby and oswald? mr. curry. no, sir; we were not able to establish any connection between them. mr. mccloy. you made a thorough investigation of that? mr. curry. yes, sir; we made every attempt to prove or disprove an association between them, and we were not able to connect the two. mr. mccloy. do you intend to ask the chief about the general walker episode? mr. rankin. yes; and also about the ruby episode. mr. mccloy. i think that is all i have at the moment. mr. rankin. chief, i put in front of you there as exhibit , now marked as "exhibit ," your radio log that you have just been looking at and referred to, is that right? mr. curry. yes, sir. mr. rankin. will you turn to the page there where you find the first broadcast of the description of the suspect of the assassination of the president? is that on your page or thereabouts? mr. curry. the pages--yes, it is page , channel . mr. rankin. will you tell what time of the day that is recorded as having been made? mr. curry. this shows at the end the broadcast to be : p.m. it would be on november d. mr. rankin. mr. chairman, i would like to offer exhibit being this radio log which covers a great many matters, but in light of the importance of the time and the description and all, i think the entire log should go in and then we can refer to different items in it. mr. dulles. it will be admitted as commission's exhibit no. . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. rankin. now, will you read to the commission a description that was given at that time of the suspect of the assassination? mr. curry. the broadcast reads as follows: "attention all squads. attention all squads. at elm and houston, reported to be an unknown white male, approximately , slender build, height feet inches, pounds. reported to be armed with what is believed to be a . -caliber rifle. "attention all squads, the suspect is believed to be white male, , feet inches, slender build, pounds, armed with what is thought to be a . -. rifle. no further description or information at this time. kkb there dallas, and the time given as : p.m." mr. rankin. you have described officer tippit's number? mr. curry. district . mr. rankin. and that is recorded along the left-hand side when there is any message either from him or to him, is that right? mr. curry. that is correct. mr. rankin. do you find there a message directed to him about moving to the central oak cliff area? mr. curry. yes, sir. mr. rankin. and what time is that message recorded? mr. curry. immediately following this dispatch to him to district squads and , ebg . mr. rankin. what time? mr. curry. the time is given as : . mr. rankin. what does it say? mr. curry. the dispatcher asked him " and " or instructed him "move into the central oak cliff area." mr. rankin. did he respond to that? mr. curry. a little later he did. mr. rankin. when? mr. curry. we have--he was asked his location, would be about o'clock. mr. rankin. did he say what it was? mr. curry. he didn't come back in at that time. at : p.m. they called him again. mr. rankin. did he respond? mr. curry. it is at : . the dispatcher said " " and he responded, he said, "you are in the oak cliff area, are you not?" seventy-eight responded and said, "lancaster and ," which would be in the central section of oak cliff. the dispatcher said, "you will be at large for any emergency that comes in." and he responded, " - ," which means message received. and he would follow those instructions. mr. rankin. do you have an item there of a broadcast of a person who murdered tippit? mr. curry. we have apparently--a citizen came in on the radio and he said, "somebody shot a police officer at th street." someone in the background said , squad , car no. . and the citizen said, "you get that?" and the dispatcher said, " ." and there was no response and the citizen said, "hello, police operator, did you get that?" some other unknown voice came in and said, " east jefferson." mr. rankin. what time of the day? mr. curry. this was about : ; : is the next time that shows up on the radio log. the dispatcher at : said, "the subject is running west on jefferson from the location." citizen came back in on the radio and said, "from out here on th street, block, the police officer just shot, i think he is dead." dispatcher said, " - , we have the information." the citizen using the radio remained off the radio. dispatcher to , he was the sergeant, said, "did you receive the information of police officer shot?" and he said, " - , but didn't that citizen say first he was on jefferson and th and then chesapeake?" and he said, "yes." and he said, "do they relate?" and he said, "yes, at denver, will be there shortly," that is a sergeant or a lieutenant. ninety-one came on and said, "have a signal involving a police officer at block east th. the suspect last seen running west on jefferson, no description at this time." the dispatcher came in and said, "the suspect just passed east jefferson." dispatcher then says, "give us the correct location on it, , we have three different locations." eighty-five says, "i haven't seen anything on jefferson yet, - , check, east th at denver." dispatcher repeated, "the subject has just passed east jefferson." at : we have a broadcast here that says, "we have a description on the suspect here on jefferson, last seen on the block on east jefferson, a white male, , about feet , black hair, slender, wearing a white jacket, white shirt and dark slacks, armed with what he states unknown. repeat the description." dispatcher said that to the squad. he says. "wearing a white jacket believed to be a white shirt and dark slacks. what is his direction of travel on jefferson?" he said, "travel west on jefferson, last seen in the west jefferson, correction, it will be east jefferson." the dispatcher then said, "pick up for investigation of aggravated assault on a police officer, a white male approximately , feet , slender build, has black hair, white jacket, white shirt, dark trousers. suspect has been seen running west on jefferson from the block of east jefferson at : ." then they asked about the condition of the officer, and there was something about--the dispatcher did receive some information that there was a man pulled in there on west davis driving a white pontiac, a or station wagon with a prefix pe, saying he had a rifle laying in the street. we have a citizen following in a car address unknown direction. the dispatcher said, "any unit near gaston block, this is about a blood bank." then comes in and says, "we believe the suspect on shooting this officer out here got his white jacket, believed he dumped it in this parking lot behind the service station at block west, jefferson across from dudley house. he had a white jacket we believe this is it." "you do not have a suspect, is that correct?" "no, just the jacket lying on the ground." there is some more conversation about blood going to parkland. "what was the description beside the white jacket?" "white male, , - black hair, slender build, white shirt, white jacket, black trousers, going west on jefferson from the block." squad says, "this is sergeant jerry hill." says, "i am at th and beckley now, have a man in the car with me that can identify the suspect if anybody gets one." mr. rankin. chief curry, we were furnished a commission document no. , dated december , , that purported to be a radio log for your department, and it did not have any item in it in regard to instruction to officer tippit to go to the central oak cliff area. do you know why that would be true? mr. curry. i don't know why it wasn't in that log except that these logs, after they are recorded, they are pretty difficult to try to take everything off of them, channel and channel is in on them and they spent many hours going over these and copying these. this would be available and i listened to our recording. mr. rankin. that is exhibit you are talking about? mr. curry. that is right. mr. rankin. so if there is a discrepancy between the two, are you satisfied that exhibit is correct? mr. curry. is the correct exhibit; yes. mr. rankin. commission document no. does say at the heading that most routine transmissions were left out for reasons of brevity. would that be any explanation? mr. curry. perhaps it could be, yes. because these would have been routine broadcasts. the fact the squad was moving into this area because this is more or less normal procedure when we have incidents occurring of any magnitude, the squads immediately begin moving in to cover officers of the district. mr. rankin. you were going to tell us about how it came to your attention about the moving of lee oswald to the jail from your place on saturday? mr. curry. to the county jail? mr. rankin. yes. mr. curry. yes, sir. i asked captain fritz a time or two when he wanted to move oswald, because this is left up to him. whoever will be handling the case, i mean i don't enter in the transfer of prisoners. i don't ordinarily even know when they are going to be transferred. mr. rankin. why is that? mr. curry. it is just a routine matter. mr. rankin. can you tell us is that involved quite a few times in your operations? mr. curry. yes, sir. usually it is a daily transfer of prisoners, and usually the sheriff's office sends up there and picks them up on routine prisoners. mr. rankin. are there a number each day? mr. curry. i would say perhaps anywhere from maybe none to a day. mr. rankin. when did you talk to officer or captain fritz about this? mr. curry. i think i talked to him some on saturday, because the newspaper people or the news media kept asking me when are going to transfer him? mr. rankin. that would be november ? mr. curry. yes; and i said this i don't know because that would be left up to the men doing the interrogation. when they felt like they were finished with him and wanted to transfer him or when sheriff decker said, "we want the man." mr. rankin. did you have anything to do with his transfer then? mr. curry. other than to, i called sheriff decker on sunday morning and he said, i told him and i think he had talked to fritz prior to that time, too, and he told fritz, he says, "don't bring him down here until i get some security set up for him." so, sunday morning i talked to sheriff decker. mr. rankin. why didn't you do it at night? mr. curry. this is not customary to transfer prisoners at night. mr. rankin. why? mr. curry. well, in talking with captain fritz, and here again the prisoner was his, and when some of my captains, i believe it was perhaps lieutenant swain, it is in the record somewhere said something about, "do you think we ought to move him at night?" and captain fritz was not in favor of moving him at night because he said, "if anything does occur you can't see, anybody can immediately get out of sight, and if anything is going to happen we want to know where we can see and see what is happening." mr. rankin. were you fearful something might happen? mr. curry. i didn't know. i thought it could happen because of a feeling of a great number of people. but i certainly didn't think anything to happen in city hall. i thought that if anything did happen to him it would probably be en route from the city jail to the county jail. mr. rankin. what precautions did you take? mr. curry. the precautions that were taken, when i came in on sunday morning, now captain fritz, i had talked to him on saturday night or saturday evening anyway, and he said, he thought he would be ready to transfer him by o'clock the next morning, that would be sunday morning. mr. rankin. did you tell that to the media? mr. curry. i told them at some time after that. several of them asked me when are you going to transfer him, and i said, i don't know. they said, "are you going to transfer him tonight," and i said, "no, we are not going to transfer him tonight." i said, "we are tired. we are going home and get some rest." something was said about well, we are tired, too. when should we come back, and i think that this is recorded in some of the tape recording, that i told them if you are back here by o'clock in the morning, i don't think that you would miss anything you want to see. mr. rankin. what did you do then about precautions? mr. curry. the next morning when i came in, that would be about : , : , i think, parked in the basement of city hall, i started up to the elevator and i noticed they had moved some cameras into a hallway down in the basement and i told lieutenant wiggins who is in the jail office, i said, "these things will have to be moved out of here, and i also told chief batchelor, and chief stevenson, assistant chief batchelor, and assistant chief in charge of investigations stevenson who came down in the basement at the time. mr. rankin. those were tv cameras? mr. curry. that was in the lobby or in near the lobby of the jail office. i told them they were--would have to move those out of there. this was also in the parking area, there was a ramp come down from main street and goes out on commerce street, and then there is a parking area east of this. i told lieutenant wiggins who was there, i said, "now, move these squad cars," there was a transfer car there and a squad car, "move these cars out of this area and if the news media wants down here put them over behind these railings, back over in the basement here." then that is all i did at that time. i saw that they were setting up some security. a little while later chief batchelor and chief stevenson went downstairs and found captain talbert who was the platoon commander, radio platoon commander had some sergeants down there and they were setting up security and were told clean everything out of the basement and not let anybody in here, i think the depositions will show that, not let anybody in except police officers and news media who had proper credentials. mr. rankin. what about the various entrances, was anything done about that? mr. curry. well, the entrances to the basement, yes, and the entrances from the basement of city hall out into the basement proper where the cars come in. mr. rankin. what was done about that? mr. curry. every entrance there were guards put on it with instructions not to let anyone come or go except police officers or news people that had proper credentials. mr. rankin. what entrances are there to the basement? mr. curry. this is a main street entrance for vehicles, that would be on the north side of the building. there is a commerce street exit which would be on the south side of the building, on the west side downstairs there is an entrance from the jail corridor where the public goes to the jail window into the basement of the parking area. then there are some elevators that come from the municipal building, that come down to the basement level. there are also, there is also an opening that goes from this basement down into a subbasement where the maintenance men have their offices. (at this point, senator cooper left the hearing room.) mr. rankin. and each one of those was guarded? mr. curry. yes, sir. mr. rankin. throughout the time? mr. curry. yes, sir. mr. rankin. what other precautions were made? mr. curry. there were a great number of police reservists and detectives and uniformed officers, i think there was a total, i believe of about men in this area between the jail office and the immediate area where he would be loaded. mr. rankin. how large an area was that? mr. curry. well, where he would be brought out of the jail office to put him in this car, would be, i would say, or feet, and then this building, this ramp runs from one street to the other, and the parking area would cover a block wide and perhaps feet deep. mr. rankin. were there cars in the parking area? mr. curry. some cars were there. they had been searched out, all of them. all of the vehicles had been searched, and all the, where the airconditioning ducts were, they had all been searched, every place where a person could conceal himself had been searched out. mr. rankin. was there a plan for an armored car? mr. curry. yes, sir; there was. mr. rankin. what happened about that? mr. curry. after they had gotten the armored car down there, in talking with captain fritz, and here again this prisoner was his responsibility and i don't want to be in a position of just overriding him, and i was willing to trust his judgment, he had been doing this for, like i say, nearly years, and he said, "chief, i would prefer not to use that armored car, i don't know who the driver is. it is awkward to handle and if anybody tries to do anything to us, i am afraid we would be surrounded. i would prefer to put him in a police car with some of my men following him, and get in and just take him right down main street and slip him into the jail." so i said, "it will be all right with me if you want to do it that way but let's not say anything about this." mr. rankin. now the armored car was not a dallas police car, was it? mr. curry. no; it was not. mr. rankin. it was one you were arranging to get from---- mr. curry. i believe his name was mr. sherrell, who was the manager of the armored motor service there in dallas. mr. rankin. and they would furnish a driver with it? mr. curry. yes. mr. rankin. what else was done, if anything? mr. curry. we went ahead with our plans and we instructed the officers that would be involved in this transfer they would go east on commerce street, north to elm street, west on elm street to houston street, and then back south on houston to the rear entrance of the county jail. mr. rankin. how many officers would be involved in the transfer? mr. curry. in the actual transfer, i would think perhaps or besides the men that were stationed at the intersections downtown. mr. rankin. how far would it be from your police department to the county jail? mr. curry. i would say - blocks. mr. rankin. were there any other precautions you haven't described? mr. curry. no, sir; that is about all i know of, except that captain fritz wanted to transfer the prisoner in his car, with some of his detectives. this is not unusual. he has transferred many, many prisoners, especially where there is--it is an unusual case involving more than the ordinary routine crime, so it is not anything unusual to transfer him, for him to transfer prisoners. but, it was then suggested or arranged that they would put his car in a position behind the armored car that we would bring the prisoner out, put him in his car, and he would have two detectives in the back seat with him, plus one driver and two or three detectives following him immediately and there was supposed to be another car to pick up and go with them or get into a car van with these two. they would follow the armored motor car and no one would know that he was not in the armored motor car except the reporters downstairs when they saw him come out. they would see he was placed in a car instead of the armored car, and we planned to let the armored car go over the predetermined route, but that captain fritz, when he got to main street, as you go east on commerce and turned north to go to elm street, that is the second street over, when he got to main street they would make a left turn and go right down main street to the county jail, and they would turn right on houston street and the lead car would pull past the entrance and he would duck in and the gates would be closed and the prisoner would be transferred. mr. rankin. what happened to these tv cameras that you told them to get out of there? mr. curry. they moved them back somewhere. i don't know where they moved them but it was away from there. mr. rankin. weren't their cameras right there at the time of the shooting? mr. curry. there were some cameras immediately over, tv cameras, i think over where i had told them to place them earlier that morning. i understood when chief batchelor went downstairs and i think captain jones of the forgery bureau, immediately prior to the transfer, they found there were some reporters and cameramen in the jail office, and captain jones, i believe, asked chief batchelor if these should not be removed and he was told yes, they should be removed out into the basement. when they were removed out into the basement instead of them being placed outside of the railing--now this is a decision made by chief batchelor, i suppose, because he said put them in the driveway up to the north. now this is from where ruby came. so apparently this afforded him an opportunity, from our investigation it was determined that he came down this main street ramp. mr. rankin. how did you determine that? mr. curry. we interrograted every man that was assigned in the basement. also every witness who was around there that we could find that knew anything about it. mr. rankin. did anyone see him come in on that ramp? mr. curry. there was a former police officer who told us he saw him go down that ramp, a negro former police officer. mr. rankin. who was that? mr. curry. i believe his name was daniels. i think perhaps you have a statement from him, don't you? mr. rankin. is he the only one who saw him come in down there? mr. curry. i believe so. mr. rankin. now with these tv cameras down there how would your ruse work about having the armored car go ahead and oswald climb into captain fritz' car? wouldn't that all be shown on tv? mr. curry. if it was. we didn't think there would be anybody downtown to be in a position to watching tv that quickly to do anything about it if they wanted to. mr. rankin. you thought about it though? mr. curry. yes. mr. rankin. what happened? were you down there at the time? mr. curry. no, sir; i would have been but i received a call from my mayor and as i was fixing to go downstairs and i wish that i had been downstairs because i don't know that i could have done anything but you always have this feeling if you were there maybe you could have done something. but i was called to the telephone and while i was talking to the mayor, why i heard some noises from downstairs and i was up on the third floor, and i heard some shouting, and someone came in and told me that oswald had been shot. mr. rankin. did you learn how the shooting occurred? mr. curry. yes. mr. rankin. will you tell us? mr. curry. i was told that someone sprang from the crowd and pushed a gun into his stomach and fired a shot. mr. rankin. do you know who that was? mr. curry. i was told that the man was named jack ruby. mr. rankin. what else did you learn about it? mr. curry. further investigation revealed, and some of my officers who talked to ruby and talked to his attorney, i believe, were told that he came down that north ramp, and an investigation revealed that one of our officers, who was assigned there. officer vaughn, who was assigned to this location just prior to this transfer. mr. rankin. that is out on the street? mr. curry. main street side. mr. rankin. at the entrance? mr. curry. at the entrance to the basement ramp. he had been assigned there and had been told not to let anybody come in except newspaper reporters or news media or police officers. mr. rankin. did you find out what he did? mr. curry. we discovered or found out subsequently that he, just prior to this transfer, that when we found out we were going to transfer him and not use an armored car that chief stevenson had told lieutenant pierce "to get a couple of sergeants or a sergeant, get somebody and go around and get in front of the armored car and when we tell you to why you lead off and lead this armored car over here and just over the route we have discussed, and take it to the county jail." well, lieutenant pierce went downstairs and got a car and he got sergeant putnam and i don't recall the other sergeant, and because the ramp that ordinarily we would use for exit ramp to commerce street, it was blocked with this armored car and another vehicle, he went out in the wrong direction, that is he went north, up to north, he went north on the ramp to main street which ordinarily would not be done, but since he could not get out, why he did, and as he approached the ramp, our investigation showed that officer vaughn stepped from his assignment in the entrance to this ramp, and the walk is about or feet wide there, stepped across and just more or less assisted the car to get into the main street flow of traffic. now he wasn't asked to do this by the lieutenant, but he just did it and according to what ruby told some of my officers, i believe, whether you have it on the record who he told this to, that he came down that north ramp. mr. rankin. at that time? mr. curry. at that time. now this would only have been, it couldn't have possibly been over or minutes prior to the shooting, so apparently he went right down that ramp and he got in behind some of these newspaper reporters or news media and detectives, and as oswald was brought out he sprang from behind one of my detectives and took about two steps and shoved a gun in oswald's side and pulled the trigger. this officer, in talking to him, he made a report, he swears that he didn't see anybody go in there. mr. rankin. by this officer, you mean vaughn? mr. curry. officer vaughn. he did, i asked him myself or asked the investigating officers to see if he wouldn't take a polygraph test concerning this, just to verify his position in it, and he agreed to take the polygraph test and did take the polygraph test and the polygraph test revealed that he was not aware that ruby came in while he stepped, when he stepped away from the entrance of that door. now i am not here to place the blame on anybody because, as i have said previously, as head of the department, i have got to accept the responsibility for what goes on there. but if officer vaughn had properly carried out his assignment, i don't believe that ruby could have gotten into the basement of the city hall. mr. mccloy. unless he had credentials, media credentials? mr. curry. that is correct. mr. mccloy. we haven't verified whether or not he did have anything? mr. curry. we haven't been able to verify that. there were none found on his person. mr. rankin. did you make any inquiry as to whether or not any of the police force were involved with ruby in this shooting? mr. curry. we got reports and interrogated every officer who was there. mr. rankin. what did you find out? mr. curry. we didn't find any officer who knew he was down there or that had in any way assisted him in getting there. no one. mr. rankin. you are satisfied that none of them were involved in trying to have oswald shot? mr. curry. yes, sir; i certainly am. mr. rankin. did you make inquiry to determine whether there was any evidence that anyone else was involved with ruby in trying to shoot oswald? mr. curry. we made every effort we could in our investigation. we were not able to determine any tieup between any other individual and ruby or oswald. mr. rankin. did you make any inquiry to determine whether or not anyone else was involved with oswald in the assassination of the president? mr. curry. we attempted to. every lead we came upon we followed it out to see whether or not we could make any connection between ruby, oswald, or any other group. mr. rankin. did you discover any evidence that would tend to show that oswald had any support in the assassination? mr. curry. no; we did not. mr. rankin. did you discover any evidence that would prove ruby was involved with any other person in the killing of oswald? mr. curry. we were not able to determine any connection. mr. dulles. i will just ask one question, if i may, here. it was officer vaughn, i understand, who had the direct responsibility for checking the credentials. mr. curry. of that door, of that particular door. mr. dulles. that door. is there any evidence that officer vaughn knew of ruby? mr. curry. i don't believe he did. mr. dulles. has that been looked into? mr. curry. he was asked that, and if i remember correctly in his deposition he didn't know him. mr. dulles. he testified he didn't know him? mr. curry. i believe so, i am not confident of that, but they have had his deposition here, which i am sure would reveal that. mr. dulles. do you know---- (discussion off the record.) mr. mccloy. do you know, chief, anybody on the staff, on your staff, on the police staff, that was particularly close to ruby? mr. curry. no, sir; i do not. mr. mccloy. i would want to go back for a little while on one thing. how did it happen the description was broadcast so quickly after the event? can you explain the circumstances under which---- mr. curry. i am merely giving an opinion here. mr. mccloy. yes. mr. curry. i think the reason it was when they found out at the texas school book depository that this employee when they were checking employees and they found out this employee was missing, that they presumed he must or could have had some connection between the shooting of the president and the fact that he was not present at this time. mr. mccloy. can you describe the mechanics or the machinery by which this did get on to, this material on to the broadcast, that is---- mr. ball. could i go off the record on it? (discussion off the record.) mr. curry. no, sir; other than, i am sure that someone put it over a police radio to our dispatcher and he put it then, he broadcast it. mr. mccloy. that is someone on the scene would presumably communicate with headquarters? mr. curry. with the dispatcher. he would rebroadcast it to all units. mr. mccloy. and he would rebroadcast it to all the units? mr. curry. yes. mr. dulles. you have given us, i think, an estimate or approximate estimate of the number of officers you thought that knew ruby, and i believe it was about out of the whole force. mr. curry. this is just--i mean this is not--i couldn't say this was a real accurate number, but i am just presuming from just talking to people in the department. i would say that certainly no more than men knew anything about him at all. mr. dulles. have you made any effort to find out and run down these men that did know? mr. curry. yes, sir. mr. dulles. you have? mr. curry. yes, sir. mr. dulles. and how many have you actually discovered did know ruby from that investigation? mr. curry. i don't have the exact number, but i am guessing it probably would be or men. mr. dulles. twenty-five men whom you have interrogated with regard to their association with ruby? mr. curry. that knew him in some capacity. that knew him in some capacity. mr. dulles. mr. rankin, do we have depositions on this point? mr. rankin. we have inquired of everyone deposed as to what he knew about jack ruby, what acquaintance, any prior connections. mr. dulles. you mean all the police officers who were---- mr. rankin. who were interrogated, but, of course, we didn't cover any , men. mr. dulles. did you cover all those that were present that morning? mr. curry. i believe we asked anyone in the police department who knew ruby to let us know about it. and then i think anyone that knew him, the names were turned over to those people here. we covered all that such an inquiry would reveal but we didn't purport to cover--well, we covered something like a hundred out of , . we requested by departmental order any police officer who knew jack ruby make it known to us, and then he was interrogated about it. mr. rankin. of those interrogated that would probably include all of those present the day of the shooting of oswald, the morning of the shooting of oswald at the time of the transfer? mr. curry. i believe it would. mr. rankin. all that we knew were present at all, and beyond that, too, have been interrogated. mr. curry. yes. mr. mccloy. when officer , that is tippit was directed to the oak cliff area that was simply because the oak cliff area was sort of a center of activity at that point? mr. curry. at that time. mr. mccloy. it wasn't--it wasn't because you were trying to or had any idea that the suspect might have been there? mr. curry. not from the presidential shooting, but we were sure that the suspect in the officer tippit shooting was in the central area. mr. mccloy. but tippit was still alive on the first direction to him to go out there? mr. curry. that was because some of the squad had been moved out of the oak cliff into the dallas area. you see, this is across the river. mr. mccloy. what is the oak cliff area? mr. rankin. i think that ought to be clarified. chief curry, wasn't your testimony that tippit was in the oak cliff area of dallas? mr. curry. yes. mr. rankin. and then he was directed to move to the central oak cliff area? mr. curry. that is correct. mr. rankin. move in closer, and so he was in it, his regular beat, as i understand it, was in the oak cliff area, isn't that right? mr. curry. yes. mr. rankin. and is oak cliff a suburb or what is it? mr. curry. it is not exactly a suburb, but it is physically separated. it used to be a separate municipality and some years ago---- mr. rankin. where does it lie? mr. curry. it lies west of dallas proper and across the trinity river and the only means of going to oak cliff, going to and from oak cliff is by means of viaduct so there is a physical separation between oak cliff and dallas, and some of the squads had been pulled out of the oak cliff area and to come over to the elm and houston area to assist in the investigation of this shooting, and it would be normal procedure as squads go out of an area for the squads further out to move in in the event something does happen in this area they would have a squad that wouldn't be so far removed from it. mr. dulles. this direction had nothing to do with any suspicion that you might have had that the assassin might be going into this area? mr. curry. no, sir; none at all. mr. dulles. it was purely a maneuver to cover an area which had been evacuated or been left uncovered because of the assassination and the reassignment of squads? mr. curry. the reassignment of squads, that is right. mr. mccloy. because of the withdrawal of people of the oak cliff area into the houston street area? mr. curry. that is correct. so we pulled some of the squads further assigned to the area into the most central area to cover anything that might happen so they would be in position to go out or come in. mr. mccloy. that does clear it up. mr. rankin. will you tell us on the record what was normal procedure that you just spoke about? mr. curry. normal procedure would be when we have a great number of squads on assignment in an area, in their particular district, as squads go out of service, say they are checking out, to haul prisoners into the jails or they are on calls, it just is automatic they are instructed in school when they go to school if the adjoining squad goes out of service, doesn't stay, say he adjoins you on the east, don't go to the far west side of your district, go to the east side of your district where you could be on the west side of his district, so if something else occurs in his district you would be in a position to answer the call. ordinarily it is not necessary for us to, so that squads go to getting out of service, to go and rearrange squads. in this particular instance, when he asked and if they were in central oak cliff they said yes, but they were moving there because this would be a normal thing to do, to move into an area where other squads had gone out of service. mr. rankin. you told us about your efforts to try to determine whether subversive groups or groups that might have an interest in making trouble for a trip of the president were going to try to do anything. would you tell us what you did about that in more detail? mr. curry. i gave you a copy of this, and i would like to read it for the record, if you would like me to. mr. rankin. we will offer that. mr. curry. all right. this is a copy of a report submitted to me by lieutenant jack revill, criminal intelligence section of the special service bureau. mr. rankin. i will hand you exhibit no. and ask you if that isn't a copy of what you are referring to. mr. curry. yes; it is. mr. rankin. you won't have to read that. chief, if you will just describe in a general way what was done that you know about and then i will offer that to show what it proves. mr. curry. in essence, this report says prior to the announcement of the president's visit, there were rumors he would visit dallas and because of these rumors the intelligence section increased its efforts in attempting to get data concerning not only extremists and subversive groups. mr. rankin. how do they do that? mr. curry. they usually have an informant inside the organization. sometimes it may be one of our own men. mr. rankin. i see. that was with regard to the persons listed on that exhibit ? mr. curry. yes. mr. rankin. do you know of any other efforts besides that? mr. curry. no, sir; these are all that i know of except we did in one instance go to the cities outside of dallas, towns outside of dallas to talk to some people that had rumored that they would do something to embarrass the president. these organizations are listed as the ku klux klan, the indignant white citizens council, national states rights party, the john birch society, dallas white citizens council, oak cliff white citizens council, general walker group, american opinion forum, dallas committee for full citizenship, young peoples socialist league, dallas civil liberties union, texas white citizens council, and black muslims. mr. rankin. i will hand you exhibit which you have furnished us this morning, and ask you, can you tell us how you got that exhibit? mr. curry. this exhibit was a report that was submitted to me from jack revill, who is a lieutenant, in the criminal intelligence section. mr. rankin. that is the same man who is referred to in exhibit ? mr. curry. yes, it is; their assignment is to keep track of these groups that we have talked about, possible subversive or extremist groups and try to know something about their plans, their movements. mr. rankin. how did you get that information described in exhibit ? mr. curry. it was given to me on november d at : p.m., or shortly thereafter, but i mean the information came to him at that time, and he passed it on to me, later that day. mr. rankin. would you tell us how you secured exhibit ? mr. curry. this is a report from officer v. j. brian, b-r-i-a-n, who is a detective in the criminal intelligence section, and was present when lieutenant revill, when the information submitted was given to lieutenant revill. mr. rankin. i would like to offer exhibits , , and . mr. dulles. they will be admitted. (the documents referred to were marked commission exhibit nos. , , and for identification and received in evidence.) mr. rankin. mr. chairman, i think we should have a recess now until o'clock. mr. mccloy. one more question. was there any talk that you heard around before the, after the apprehension of oswald and his time set for his removal from police headquarters to the jail, was there any talk that you heard in the corridors or elsewhere about lynching or possible lynching? mr. curry. no, sir. the only information i had was that the fbi, someone from the fbi passed the information to the city hall during the night that they had had a call that said, i believe the fbi sent this call, that there was a group of who would take that prisoner away from us before he got to the county jail. mr. mccloy. but this came from outside the jail? mr. curry. yes; outside. mr. mccloy. you never heard any threats uttered within the jail? mr. curry. no. mr. dulles. another general question: have you any comments or anything you would like to say about the cooperation between the dallas police, the secret service, and the fbi during this period immediately following, prior to and immediately following the assassination? mr. curry. no, sir. we have always had the best of cooperation between both of these federal units, and all other units of the federal and state government. i feel sure that they thought this information was important to us, they probably would have given it to us. but we certainly have not had any trouble with the fbi or with the secret service in any of our past associations. mr. dulles. i was going a little further. i mean, was the cooperation whole-hearted and open and frank as far as you could tell? mr. curry. yes, sir; as far as i could tell, it was. mr. dulles. was there any problem created because of the possible--not conflict of authority, but question as to who had responsibility of particular areas here as between you as chief of police and the secret service and the fbi? mr. curry. prior to the president's visit, no; there was nothing there. mr. dulles. prior to or subsequent to? mr. curry. now, subsequent to that, we felt this, that this was a murder that had been committed in the county, city and county of dallas, and that we had prior, i mean we had jurisdiction over this. the fbi actually had no jurisdiction over it, the secret service actually had no jurisdiction over it. but in an effort to cooperate with these agencies we went all out to do whatever they wanted us to do that we could do to let them observe what was taking place, but actually we knew that this was a case that happened in dallas, tex., and would have to be tried in dallas, tex., and it was our responsibility to gather the evidence and present the evidence. we kept getting calls from the fbi. they wanted this evidence up in washington, in the laboratory, and there was some discussion, fritz told me, he says, "well, i need the evidence here, i need to get some people to try to identify the gun, to try to identify this pistol and these things, and if it is in washington how can i do it?" but we finally, the night, about midnight of friday night, we agreed to let the fbi have all the evidence and they said they would bring it to their laboratory and they would have an agent stand by and when they were finished with it to return it to us. mr. dulles. an agent of the police force, you mean? mr. curry. an agent of the fbi. mr. dulles. fbi? mr. curry. yes. mr. dulles. there was no agent of the dallas police that went to washington with the evidence? mr. curry. not to my knowledge. mr. rankin. did that work out all right so far? mr. curry. well, not exactly, because they were to give us pictures of everything that was brought to washington, and fritz tells me that some of these little items that it was very poor reproduction of some of the items on microfilm. subsequently they photographed these things in washington and sent us copies, some , i think, copies of different items. so far as i know, we have never received any of that evidence back. it is still in washington, i guess. perhaps the commission has it. mr. rankin. yes; the commission is still working with it. mr. curry. yes. mr. rankin. but apparently the fbi tried to carry out their agreement with you, didn't they? mr. curry. yes; they did. mr. rankin. and it is a question of whether or not their reproductions were as good as you would like to have? mr. curry. there were made, some of them, in the office down in dallas, they were in a tremendous hurry to get all of these items to the laboratory here in washington, and our only concern was this, that if this case is tried in dallas, we need the evidence to be presented here in a court in dallas and we were a little bit apprehensive about it if it gets to washington will it be available to us when we need it. if we need somebody to identify, attempt to identify the gun or other items will it be here for them to see? and that was our only concern. we got several calls insisting we send this, and nobody would tell me exactly who it was that was insisting, "just say i got a call from washington, and they wanted this evidence up there," insinuated it was someone in high authority that was requesting this, and we finally agreed as a matter of trying to cooperate with them, actually. mr. dulles. have you any more questions? mr. mccloy. not at this stage. mr. rankin. shall we convene at ? mr. dulles. mr. murray, do you have any? mr. murray. no, thank you. (whereupon, at : p.m., the president's commission recessed.) afternoon session testimony of jesse edward curry resumed the president's commission reconvened at p.m. mr. mccloy. (presiding). we are ready. mr. rankin. chief curry, i was asking you just as we closed your examination before lunch about exhibits , particularly, and you will recall those are the documents concerning the conversation between agent hosty of the fbi and jack revill who is your lieutenant of criminal intelligence section, is that right? mr. curry. it was reported to me, i was given a report to that effect. mr. rankin. do you know anything about the matters described in those letters? mr. curry. yes. mr. rankin. will you tell us what you know about them? do you want to see them? mr. curry. yes. one of the documents tells me that lieutenant revill states that about : p.m. on the d---- mr. rankin. of what? mr. curry. november , that he met special agent jim hosty of the fbi in the basement of the city hall, and at that time agent hosty related to revill that the subject, oswald, was a member of the communist party, and that he was residing in dallas. mr. rankin. did you make any further inquiry after you got that information? mr. curry. none other than i had a report from v. j. brian, a detective in criminal intelligence, who was present at the time this conversation took place. mr. rankin. that later report was as of april ? mr. curry. yes. mr. rankin. ? mr. curry. the last report. mr. rankin. what was the occasion for that? mr. curry. i just asked revill if anyone was with him at the time, and he recalled that detective brian was at the time. mr. rankin. otherwise, did you know anything more about that matter? mr. curry. no, sir; i believe captain fritz said that he, he told me he knew they had been out to talk to mrs. paine. mr. rankin. by they, who do you mean? mr. curry. some of the fbi agents, and that he did know that oswald apparently knew hosty, because hosty was present in the interrogation room. mr. rankin. by he there at that point who do you mean? mr. curry. oswald. mr. rankin. yes; but you say he knew. mr. curry. that oswald knew hosty. mr. rankin. yes. mr. curry. because according to fritz he said that he was quite bitter, oswald was quite bitter toward hosty because he had made the statement that "you mistreated my wife." mr. rankin. do you know how captain fritz learned that? mr. curry. he was in captain fritz's office when this statement was made, according to captain fritz. mr. rankin. now, after the assassination, did you give any orders of your staff, making any reports about anything they knew about either the assassination or the tippit killing? mr. curry. yes, sir; we had all of our officers who knew anything at all about it to submit reports which is a normal procedure in any unusual incident. mr. rankin. how did you direct that that be done? mr. curry. just through my staff. mr. rankin. was that in writing? mr. curry. no, sir. mr. rankin. you just told them? mr. curry. yes, sir. mr. rankin. and was that direction promptly given? mr. curry. i am sure it was passed on immediately. all orders are. mr. rankin. how soon after the assassination? mr. curry. i would say probably within the next day after we met and we decided that an investigation should be conducted into all phases of this. mr. rankin. did you give any directions about furnishing information immediately about what anyone knew about the killing of oswald? mr. curry. no specific directions. after oswald was killed, i called and i talked with deputy chief stevenson of the criminal investigation division the next morning of the next day, i believe this was monday, and we decided we should appoint an investigative group. mr. rankin. who was that? mr. curry. that was inspector sawyer, headed by inspector sawyer. mr. rankin. who else? mr. curry. and captain o. a. jones, and then i think they had some lieutenants assigned to it and some detectives. their assignment was to find out every person who was present in or around the city hall at the time that lee oswald was killed, and to get a report from them. i know lieutenant revill was also in on this, and then they would also, in addition to getting a report, they would personally interrogate each one of them to see whether or not any information they had knowledge of might be left out of the reports. and you have a copy of all of these reports, both the reports the officers made, the additional interrogation made by members of this investigating group. mr. rankin. do you know whether they inquired as to the knowledge of any of these people about conversations with ruby immediately after the shooting of oswald? mr. curry. i believe they have some reports to that effect. mr. rankin. was that a part of their responsibility to get those reports? mr. curry. yes; anything that they had, that they could get regarding this. mr. rankin. and you would expect the police officers to tell anything they knew at once? mr. curry. yes, sir. mr. rankin. so far as you know has all of that information been supplied to the commission? mr. curry. so far as i know. mr. rankin. it has? mr. curry. so far as i know it has been supplied. mr. rankin. did you learn about the claims of some police officers that ruby had said something about the killing to them shortly after killing oswald? mr. curry. yes. mr. rankin. when did you first learn that? mr. curry. i don't recall exactly, the exact date that i learned of this. but i think the first time it came to my knowledge was that agent sorrels of the secret service, sometime after this told me, he said, "now chief, i don't know that, they could--that i could testify to this," but he said, "immediately after oswald was shot, i went to his cell"---- mr. rankin. whose cell? mr. curry. to oswald's--i mean to ruby's cell, "and i went in and talked to him, told him who i was, and"---- mr. rankin. was anyone else present? mr. curry. there was a patrolman and a guard, i think, and perhaps a detective. mr. rankin. who were they? mr. curry. i believe dean was present, sergeant dean, i don't know who these officers were but it is revealed in these reports that have been made. mr. rankin. yes. mr. curry. sorrels told me, he said, "i asked ruby why he did it and he said somebody had to kill the son-of-a-bitch and the police department couldn't do it." i believe he also said, "i couldn't think, stand the thought of having jacqueline kennedy having to return to dallas and go through a trial for him." i told him this was not for the secret service or not for publication, i just asked him the question but he said, "i did not warn him against himself, about his constitutional rights, so i don't know that i would be allowed to testify to this." mr. rankin. when did sorrels first tell you that? mr. curry. this was the--it seems to me like several days after this occurred. mr. rankin. did you report that to anyone? mr. curry. i believe i told chief stevenson about it or whoever was--or perhaps captain or inspector sawyer or some of them. this information was relayed on to the investigating group. mr. rankin. do you know whether they recorded it any place? mr. curry. no; we called the officers, when i say we, the investigating team did talk with the officers and they recall hearing this testimony. mr. rankin. do you know when they first gave you any information that they knew of any such conversation? mr. curry. i don't recall that; no, sir. mr. rankin. do you recall that the officers ever said to you or placed in writing in any memorandum or communication to you that they heard ruby say anything beyond what you have described mr. sorrels to say? mr. curry. no, sir. mr. rankin. if your records show that the first time any such information was communicated to you, was around february , , would you think that was a correct record? mr. curry. perhaps it is. when sorrels, if that is when he says it is when it was, perhaps that is when it was. but this was prior to ruby's trial that i know that he came forward with this information and he said, "it is possible they can use this testimony in the trial of ruby", but he didn't feel like that he could testify to it because he had not warned him of his constitutional rights. but that these officers were present, and if they overheard it, then he said, "you ought to at least talk to henry wade about it and he might be able to get that in his testimony on that basis." mr. rankin. you think that dean was one of the officers involved who overheard it? mr. curry. i believe he was. mr. rankin. and who else? mr. curry. i don't recall now. it is in our reports. mr. rankin. was the officer archer? mr. curry. i believe officer archer was there. mr. rankin. was it officer newcomb? mr. curry. i believe so. mr. rankin. do you believe whether they testified to something like that at the trial? mr. curry. i was not present during the trial but i understand they did testify. mr. rankin. do you know whether or not those officers made a report about what they knew about the killing of oswald prior to february ? mr. curry. i don't believe they did. mr. rankin. you don't think they made any report to you or to the fbi or anybody else? mr. curry. not to my knowledge. mr. rankin. so if they did not include such information in any report or statement prior to february , , you don't know it? mr. curry. that is correct, i do not know it. mr. mccloy. may i ask, when was, has there been testimony as to when agent sorrels told the chief that he had heard this? mr. rankin. i don't recall the date. mr. curry. but it was--i don't recall the date but it was sometime after the shooting of oswald. mr. rankin. was it day or days? mr. curry. it was several days but it was prior to the trial of jack ruby. mr. rankin. was it a week later? mr. curry. i would say perhaps it was more than a week later, it was several weeks, i would say, but prior to the trial, sorrels talked to me and he said that this may be important in a trial of the case. "some of the things that ruby told me immediately following the shooting of oswald," and he said, "i don't think i can testify to it, but you might talk to mr. wade and he might be able to get the testimony entered because these officers were not talking they just overheard the conversation." mr. mccloy. this was a substantial period after the date? mr. curry. the assassination. mr. mccloy. the date of the assassination? mr. curry. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. and the date that sorrels was alleged to have heard this from ruby? mr. curry. yes, sir. mr. rankin. was it before or after christmas? mr. curry. i believe it was after christmas. i just couldn't be sure because i was not---- mr. rankin. where did the conversation occur? mr. curry. on the telephone. mr. rankin. was anybody present? mr. curry. no, sir. mr rankin. did you make a written record of the information? mr. curry. no, sir; i just told chief stevenson, who is in charge of criminal investigation, to attempt to determine who was present at that time; that oswald was--i mean that ruby was talking to sorrels, and to see what they heard at that time, which they did, and the officers then made a report. mr. rankin. did you tell chief stevenson at that time what sorrels had told you? mr. curry. yes, sir. mr. rankin. do you know whether he made any record of it? mr. curry. i doubt that he did. mr. rankin. you haven't tried to find out? mr. curry. no, sir; i haven't. mr. rankin. do you have any practice in the police force about recording statements by the accused in first-degree murder cases? mr. curry. no, sir. mr. rankin. now changing to another subject, do you recall--you said that you had made some comments upon the evidence in regard to oswald and to the media--do you recall what you said about that? mr. curry. i believe i told them it had been reported that we had an fbi report that they had been able to trace that weapon where he had ordered it from chicago, and it had been picked up under the name of hidell and that the handwriting was the same on the order blank as oswald's. mr. rankin. was this told to a news conference or over the tv? mr. curry. well, the tv was there. it was not a news conference. i was walking down the hall, and they surrounded me. mr. rankin. did you tell them anything else about the evidence you had against oswald? mr. curry. i only told them i believed that we had some other evidence, but i didn't tell them what it was. mr. rankin. did you ever tell them any more about the evidence that you had against oswald? mr. curry. i don't believe so; i don't recall it. mr. rankin. did you ever tell them about the evidence you had against oswald concerning the tippit shooting? mr. curry. no, sir; i don't believe i made any comment. mr. rankin. do you know about when this was made, these statements were made about the evidence? mr. curry. i believe this was on friday, the d, during the late evening. mr. rankin. is it a common practice for you or someone for the police department to tell about the evidence that you had? mr. curry. it wouldn't be an uncommon practice. there is no law against it. mr. rankin. did you often do it then? mr. curry. well, i would say this was not really unusual. it might be--this was an exceptional case; ordinarily i am not involved in these investigations or in making statements, but this would not be an unusual thing to say. mr. rankin. someone from the police department often does it; is that right? mr. curry. well, frequently, if they are asked about it. mr. rankin. do you know whether it is possible to monitor conversations between the prisoner and the visitor on the intercom? mr. curry. not by intercom. it would be--they are brought into--when a prisoner is brought in to visit with an attorney or a relative he is placed on one side of a wall and the prisoner--i mean the visitor--on the other side, but we don't have any means of recording this. they talk through by telephone. there is a glass that separates them. mr. rankin. did you monitor any conversations between lee oswald and his brother robert, or lee oswald and marina at any time? mr. curry. i did not, and i don't know of any. we don't have any way of doing it. i mean we have no setup for doing this. mr. rankin. you don't know of any that was done? mr. curry. no, sir; i do not. mr. rankin. in regard to arrangements, do you know the texas law as to how soon after an arrest an arraignment is required? mr. curry. excuse me now; i am not an attorney. mr. rankin. yes. mr. curry. it is my understanding that, so far in texas, being brought immediately before a magistrate would be during the normal course of that court's business. mr. rankin. your law---- mr. curry. when they are in session. mr. rankin. your law says he shall be brought immediately. mr. curry. immediately, but it has been---- mr. rankin. but in interpretation you ordinarily follow a practice of---- mr. curry. during the normal course of the court's business. this was actually unusual because this type of arraignment--because usually it would have been later than this, but we were trying to take whatever precautions we could to see that he was given his--we were not violating his civil rights. that is the reason that we did arraign him in the city hall. ordinarily we would have taken him before a court. mr. rankin. i didn't understand you to say that the justice of the peace told him he had a right to counsel or said anything about that. mr. curry. i don't recall whether he did or whether he did not. he read all this to him. mr. rankin. that is, he read the complaint to him? mr. curry. the complaint, and i don't recall what all he said to him. mr. rankin. so, according to the practice in texas at the time that he was taken for arraignment would have been the usual practice or a little earlier? mr. curry. a little earlier, actually. mr. mccloy. were you present at any investigation or interrogation of ruby? mr. curry. no, sir; i was not. mr. mccloy. did you hear any further elaboration of this charge that oswald made that hosty had mistreated his wife; what was the nature of the mistreatment? mr. curry. i was not present when this happened. this was told to me, i think captain fritz told me this, and he seemed to gather that he had more or less sort of browbeat her in interrogating her is what fritz, the impression that fritz got. mr. mccloy. when was that? do you have any reason to know--captain fritz will perhaps tell us about it--as to when that interrogation of hosty and mrs. oswald took place? mr. curry. no, sir. mr. mccloy. you don't take normally any tape recordings of witnesses' examinations? mr. curry. no, sir. mr. mccloy. i guess that is all, except the general question i have of chief curry. do you know anything else with respect to this whole matter that you think would be of any help to this commission in getting at the facts? mr. curry. not that i know of, except to say we were extremely sorry that, of course, this thing happened in dallas. we thought we were taking every normal precaution that we could take to insure the safety of the president in cooperating with the secret service and all other agencies and we felt like we had done a good job. after the assassination and the murder of our officer, that our officers had done a good job in making a quick apprehension of the alleged person guilty of this, and that we will have to admit that although we thought that adequate precautions had been taken for the transfer of this prisoner, that one of our officers momentarily stepped away from his post of duty, and that during this moment of negligence on his part, as far as we could determine ruby went down the ramp, the main street ramp, and concealed himself behind some news media and detectives and as oswald was brought out he stepped forward and shot him. and if we had it to do over again, and i think this, that some policy should be set up for the news media, whereby if anything of this magnitude ever occurs again, that we would not be plagued by the confusion present that was present at that time, and that the news media should accept some of the responsibility for these things and agree among themselves to have representatives that can report back to them. mr. rankin. chief curry, i am not quite clear about the situation with regard to your practices in the police force, and the news media. i understand what happened, as you described it at the time of the episodes that we have been going into, and i understand that you would, if there was a matter of this magnitude again--you would expect and want a very different change? mr. curry. yes. mr. rankin. and eliminate the interference by the news media? mr. curry. that is right. mr. rankin. but what do you do now about the ordinary case? have you changed your practices about the media at all? mr. curry. not the ordinary cases; no. mr. rankin. and do they use the radio and tv in the police headquarters? mr. curry. yes, sir; they do. mr. rankin. and they, the reporters, come in, and it is just the difference between a great many? mr. curry. and a few is what made the difference in this. mr. mccloy. do you permit reporters now to come in and interrogate prisoners as they did in this case by holding a microphone up to their mouth and saying, "how did you do it?" mr. curry. they do the same as they do here; on the way from the interrogation room to the jail elevator as they pass by they might run along and ask him questions and try to get him to answer. mr. rankin. that could be done today just the same? mr. curry. yes, sir. because we have no way of keeping them out of the public halls. mr. rankin. don't you have jurisdiction as chief of police to exclude them if you thought it was the wise thing to do? mr. curry. yes. now if i had it to do over again, of course, i would exclude it. mr. rankin. and you could do it today in the ordinary case if you wanted to? mr. curry. i would probably have my hide taken off by the news media, but i could do it. mr. rankin. so, it is really a problem of weighing what the media will do to you against other considerations? mr. curry. and this, too; it seemed like there was a great demand by the general public to know what was going on. mr. rankin. yes. and that is what you were trying to satisfy? mr. curry. that is what i was trying to do. mr. rankin. those are all the questions. mr. mccloy. i don't think i have anything else. mr. rankin. thank you very much, chief, for all of your help. mr. curry. thank you for your consideration. mr. rankin. i want to offer the exhibits through , both inclusive. mr. mccloy. they may be admitted. (commission exhibits nos. through were received in evidence.) testimony of j. w. fritz mr. mccloy. you know the purpose of what we are here for, captain? mr. fritz. i think so. mr. mccloy. we have a very broad mandate to look into all the circumstances relating to these unfortunate incidents that occurred in dallas on november last year, and thereafter. mr. fritz. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. and we have had chief curry on this morning, as i am sure you understand, and we would like to continue our investigation through you. we understand that you were in very direct contact with this problem of investigation, and i will ask you to stand and raise your right hand, sir. do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give in this hearing will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. fritz. yes, sir. mr. ball. will you state your name, please? mr. fritz. j. w. fritz. mr. ball. where do you live? mr. fritz. i live in dallas. mr. ball. could you tell us something about yourself; tell us where you were born and what your education is and what your training has been as a police officer? mr. fritz. i was born in dublin, tex., and lived there for several years. my father moved to new mexico, and i grew up at lake arthur, n. mex. and then i came back to texas, and came to the police department in january of , and have been there ever since. mr. ball. you started as a patrolman, did you, in the dallas police department? mr. fritz. yes, sir; i started as a patrolman, worked as a patrolman approximately years, i am not sure of the exact time and i was then moved to the detectives' office and have come up through the ranks there, up and down. mr. ball. you are now a captain of police, are you? mr. fritz. captain of homicide and robbery bureau; yes, sir. mr. ball. how long have you held that office? mr. fritz. since it was set up, i believe, in or , i am not sure. mr. ball. you have been head of homicide and robbery detail since or ? mr. fritz. that is right. i have had other jobs, too. one time i had the whole cid; they didn't call it cid at that time; they called it detectives' office, but i kept the homicide and robbery under my supervision during that time. i later went back with the homicide and robbery, full time. mr. ball. is there a division of detectives separate from homicide and robbery? mr. fritz. well, we call it now the cid. it would be ordinarily called the detective division; yes, sir. mr. ball. who is in charge of that? mr. fritz. who is in charge of it? mr. ball. yes. mr. fritz. of course, we are all directly under the chief, and chief stevenson is the head of the cid, m. w. stevenson. mr. ball. have you had any special training in police schools or places like that? mr. fritz. well, of course, i have had a good many years of experience, and i attempted, i still go to school to our police schools, and i now attend seminars at different places, oklahoma university and texas university and go to most any training school that is available. mr. ball. on november , , you had been told the president or before november , , you had been told that the president was coming to dallas? mr. fritz. yes, sir. mr. ball. and had you taken certain precautions for his safety? mr. fritz. well, we had taken some precautions but those were changed. we were told in the beginning that we would be in the parade directly behind it, i don't know whether it was the second or third car, but the vice president's car, that we would be directly behind that, and we did make preparation for that. but at o'clock the night before the parade, chief stevenson called me at home and told me that had been changed, and i was assigned with two of my officers to the speakers' stand at the trade mart. mr. ball. was most of your work out at the trade mart that day? mr. fritz. well, we didn't have a great deal of work to do there, other than check the speakers' stand and make a check to see if everything was all right before the president got there. he would have been there in more minutes. mr. ball. did you check the waiters who had been hired? mr. fritz. that wasn't my job. mr. ball. someone else did? mr. fritz. someone else did; yes. mr. ball. how many men did you have assigned? mr. fritz. where? mr. ball. with you at the trade mart. mr. fritz. two. mr. ball. who were they? mr. fritz. detectives sims and boyd. mr. ball. and they are both homicide? mr. fritz. both homicide officers; yes. i had other officers assigned to different places. i had two of my officers assigned to ride in the car that was in front of the parade a half mile, with chief lumpkin. that was senkel and turner. mr. ball. you were at the trade mart when you heard the president had been shot? mr. fritz. yes, sir. mr. ball. that was about what time you heard that? you have a little notebook there. mr. fritz. yes, sir; i have a notebook. mr. ball. did you make notes as of that time? mr. fritz. we made this, not at that time, we made this after the tragedy. mr. ball. how long after? mr. fritz. we started on it real soon after, and we have been working on it ever since. mr. ball. did somebody assist you in the preparation of that notebook? mr. fritz. yes, sir. mr. ball. who was that? mr. fritz. i had several officers assist me with this, and some secretaries, of course, that helped us with it. i had my lieutenant, t. l. baker, help me to put this book together, this larger book, i think you have a copy of it there, and to make some additional books like this. of course, we worked the whole office ever since it happened so it is hard to say just who helped. mr. ball. now, the book you are talking about is a notebook that you have with you, the book at which you are looking now? mr. fritz. this is the book i am talking about. mr. ball. you made a formal report, didn't you, to the attorney general of texas? mr. fritz. we, we didn't make it for the attorney general of texas. at the time we made this we were just making, we were told that we would probably need a report for this investigation, and we started immediately to making this. we didn't know at that time the attorney general would need one of these but when we were told he would need one we, of course, sent him one, too. mr. ball. what i want to do is distinguish between the books you are looking at for this record. mr. fritz. yes, sir. mr. ball. you have a book that is of some size there? mr. fritz. yes, sir. mr. ball. and you call that what? mr. fritz. well, "investigation of the assassination of president kennedy." mr. ball. that is the same as commission's document no. b. so, then, you have a smaller book before you, haven't you? mr. fritz. yes; a little index book. mr. ball. an index. mr. fritz. it really is an index book for this larger file but it is kind of a quick reference book. mr. ball. i see. now, what time did you, what time was it that you heard the president had been shot? mr. fritz. i show that he was shot at : , and one of the secret service men who was assigned the same location where we were assigned, got a little call on his, evidently got a call on his little transistor radio and chief stevenson, who was also assigned to some part of the building there, came to me and told me that the president had been hit at the underpass, and asked me to go to the hospital and see what i could do. mr. ball. you say you know he was shot at : ? mr. fritz. yes, sir. mr. ball. you mean that is the time you heard about it? mr. fritz. well, we heard about it immediately after that, and we arrived and we checked---- mr. ball. what time did you hear about it? mr. fritz. just when chief stevenson came to me and told me. mr. ball. did you make a note of it at the time? mr. fritz. no sir; i didn't make a note of it at the time. mr. ball. when you heard of this what did you do? mr. fritz. immediately left, and i told the two officers with me, mr. sims and boyd that we would run to our police car that was parked nearby, listened to radio call to see whether it was a hoax or whether it was the truth. it was only minutes' time for the president's arrival, we didn't want to leave unless this was a genuine call, and a true call. when we got to the radio, of course, we began to get other news. we went to parkland hospital as we had been instructed, and as we drove up in front of the hospital, we i suppose intercepted the chief, chief curry, between the curb and the hospital, and i told him we had had a call to the hospital but i felt we were going to the wrong place, we should go to the scene of the crime and he said, "well, go ahead," so i don't think our car ever quit rolling but we went right to the scene of the crime. mr. ball. did you go directly to a building? mr. fritz. directly to the texas school book depository building. mr. ball. what time did you arrive there? mr. fritz. well, sir; we arrived there--we arrived at the hospital at : , if you want that time, and at the scene of the offense at : . mr. ball. : ; the texas school book depository building. mr. fritz. yes. mr. ball. were there any officers there at the time? mr. fritz. yes, sir. mr. ball. in the front? mr. fritz. several officers; yes, sir. mr. ball. do you know who they were? mr. fritz. i couldn't give you the name of all of them. mr. ball. what did you do when you got to this building? mr. fritz. some officer told us they thought he was in that building, so we had our guns---- mr. mccloy. thought who was in the building? mr. fritz. the man who did the shooting was in the building. so, we, of course, took our shotguns and immediately entered the building and searched the building to see if we could find him. mr. ball. were there guards on the doors of the building at that time? mr. fritz. i am not sure, but i don't--there has been some question about that, but the reason i don't think that--this may differ with someone else, but i am going to tell you what i know. mr. ball. all right. mr. mccloy. by all means. mr. fritz. after i arrived one of the officers asked me if i would like to have the building sealed and i told him i would. mr. ball. what officer was that? mr. fritz. that is a uniformed officer, but i don't know what his name was, he was outside, of course, i went upstairs and i don't know whether he did because i couldn't watch him. mr. ball. then what did you do? mr. fritz. we began searching the floors, looking for anyone with a gun or looked suspicious, and we searched through hurriedly through most all the floors. mr. mccloy. which floor did you start with? mr. fritz. we started at the bottom; yes, sir. and, of course, and i think we went up probably to the top. different people would call me when they would find something that looked like something i should know about and i ran back and forth from floor to floor as we were searching, and it wasn't very long until someone called me and told me they wanted me to come to the front window, the corner window, they had found some empty cartridges. mr. ball. that was on the sixth floor? mr. fritz. that is right; the sixth floor, corner window. mr. ball. what did you do? mr. fritz. i told them not to move the cartridges, not to touch anything until we could get the crime lab to take pictures of them just as they were lying there and i left an officer assigned there to see that that was done, and the crime lab came almost immediately, and took pictures, and dusted the shelfs for prints. mr. ball. which officers, which officer did you leave there? mr. fritz. carl day was the man i talked to about taking pictures. mr. ball. day? mr. fritz. lieutenant day; yes, sir. mr. ball. do you know whether he took the pictures or not? mr. fritz. i feel like he did but i don't know because i didn't stay to see whether he could. mr. ball. you didn't know whether he took the pictures? mr. fritz. i went on searching the building. i just told them to preserve that evidence and i went right ahead. mr. ball. what happened after that? mr. fritz. a few minutes later some officer called me and said they had found the rifle over near the back stairway and i told them same thing, not to move it, not to touch it, not to move any of the boxes until we could get pictures, and as soon as lieutenant day could get over there he made pictures of that. mr. ball. after the pictures had been taken of the rifle what happened then? mr. fritz. after the pictures had been made then i ejected a live shell, a live cartridge from the rifle. mr. ball. and who did you give that to? mr. fritz. i believe that i kept that at that time myself. later i gave it to the crime lab who, in turn, turned it over to the fbi. mr. ball. did you put any marking of yours on the empty cartridge? mr. fritz. on that loaded cartridge? mr. ball. on that loaded cartridge. mr. fritz. i don't know, i am not sure, i don't think so. mr. ball. was there any conversation you heard that this rifle was a mauser? mr. fritz. i heard all kinds of reports about that rifle. they called it most everything. mr. ball. did you hear any conversation right there that day? mr. fritz. right at that time? mr. ball. yes. mr. fritz. i just wouldn't be sure because there were so many people talking at the same time, i might have; i am not sure whether i did or not. mr. ball. did you think it was a mauser? mr. fritz. no sir; i knew--you can read on the rifle what it was and you could also see on the cartridge what caliber it was. mr. ball. well, did you ever make any--did you ever say that it was a . mauser? mr. fritz. no sir; i am sure i did not. mr. ball. or did you think it was such a thing? mr. fritz. no sir; i did not. if i did, the mauser part, i won't be too positive about mauser because i am not too sure about mauser rifles myself. but i am certainly sure that i never did give anyone any different caliber than the one that shows on the cartridges. mr. ball. did you initial the rifle? mr. fritz. the rifle; no, sir. mr. ball. you didn't. who did you give the rifle to after you ejected this live cartridge? mr. fritz. i believe that that rifle, i didn't take the rifle with me, lieutenant day took that rifle, i believe, to the city hall, and later i asked him to bring it down--i don't believe i ever carried that rifle to city hall. i believe lieutenant day carried it to city hall, anyway if you will ask him he can be more positive than i. mr. ball. while you were there mr. truly came up to you? mr. fritz. yes, sir; where the rifle was found. that was about the time we finished mr. truly came and told me that one of his employees had left the building, and i asked his name and he gave me his name, lee harvey oswald, and i asked his address and he gave me the irving address. mr. ball. this was after the rifle was found? mr. fritz. yes, sir; after the rifle was found. mr. ball. another witness has testified that the rifle was found at : p.m., does that about accord with your figures or your memory? mr. fritz. let's see, i might have that here. i don't think i have that time. mr. ball. do you have the time at which the shells were found? mr. fritz. no, sir; i don't have that time. mr. ball. how long did you stay there at the texas school book depository? mr. mccloy. can i ask one question there, did you take any precautions as to fingerprints before you ejected this? mr. fritz. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. so in your opinion your fingerprints wouldn't show? mr. fritz. he could have taken mine but i let him dust first before i ejected a shell. mr. ball. how long did you stay at the texas school book depository after you found the rifle? mr. fritz. after he told me about this man almost, i left immediately after he told me that. mr. ball. you left almost immediately after he told you that? mr. fritz. almost after he told me that man, i felt it important to hold that man. mr. ball. did you give descriptions to sims and boyd? mr. fritz. yes, sir; i told them to drive me to city hall and see if the man had a criminal record and we picked up two other officers and my intentions were to go to the house at irving. when i got to the city hall, i asked, because, i will tell you why i asked because while we were in the building we heard that our officer had been killed, someone came in and told me, i asked when i got to my office who shot the officer, and they told me his name was oswald, and i said, "his full name?" and they told me and i said, "that is the suspect we are looking for in the president's killing." so, i then called some of my officers to go right quickly, and asked them about how much evidence we had on the officer's killing and they told me they had several eye witnesses, and they had some real good witnesses, and i instructed them to get those witnesses over for identification just as soon as they could, and for us to prepare a real good case on the officer's killing so we would have a case to hold him without bond while we investigated the president's killing where we didn't have so many witnesses. mr. ball. now, you instructed some other officers to go to irving, didn't you? mr. fritz. yes, sir; i did. mr. ball. and you told sims and boyd to stay with you? mr. fritz. yes, sir; i don't believe i sent them to irving, i have the names of the officers i sent to irving. mr. ball. who did you send to irving? mr. fritz. to irving, officer stovall, rose, and adamcik. mr. ball. after you had done that what did you do? mr. fritz. i sent some officers--you mean right at that time? i also sent officers over to the beckley address, you know, as soon as we got there, i don't believe we had the beckley address at this part of this question. mr. ball. you didn't have it at that time, did you? mr. fritz. not right at this time, but as soon as i got to that address. mr. ball. let's come to that a little later and we find out when you got there. mr. fritz. when i got there? mr. ball. yes. what did you do after you had sent the officers to irving? mr. fritz. when i started to talk to this prisoner or maybe just before i started to talk to him, some officer told me outside of my office that he had a room on beckley, i don't know who that officer was, i think we can find out, i have--since i have talked to you this morning i have talked to lieutenant baker and he says i know maybe who that officer was, but i am not sure yet. mr. ball. some officer told you that he thought this man had a room on beckley? mr. fritz. yes, sir. mr. ball. had he been brought into the station by that time? mr. fritz. he was at the station when we got there, you know. mr. ball. he was? mr. fritz. yes, sir; so then i talked to him and i asked him where his room was on beckley. mr. ball. then you started to interrogate oswald, did you? mr. fritz. yes, sir. mr. ball. and you called him into your room? mr. fritz. yes, sir. mr. ball. will you describe the interrogation room, what it looks like and where it is located? mr. fritz. it is on the, room , on the third floor of the courts building, and it isn't a large office. i believe it is - / feet by feet, i have the exact measurements that i think are correct. glass all around, and it has a door leading out into a hallway. my secretaries are seated in the front. there is a lieutenant's office and desk across the hall from me. to my right and through the back window out of my office would be the squadroom where the officers write their reports. and at the end of the hall i have an interrogation room and one interrogation in back of the squadroom. mr. ball. your room opens onto---- mr. fritz. a little hallway. mr. ball. a little hallway? mr. fritz. yes, sir. mr. ball. that is not the main hall that goes through the third floor, is it? mr. fritz. sir? no, no, a little hallway in the office. mr. ball. the main corridor on the third floor--your office does not open onto the main corridor of the third floor, does it? mr. fritz. my own office? mr. ball. yes. mr. fritz. no, sir; when i say my office, the homicide and robbery office, my office opens onto the main hallway. but my little office, a private office opens into a smaller hallway. mr. ball. where was oswald being kept before you got there, what room was oswald in? mr. fritz. when i got there he was in the front interrogation room at the end of the little hall. mr. ball. here is a map or a diagram drawn by chief curry. it is commission exhibit . take a look at this, is that a diagram of the floor? mr. fritz. this would be my office right here. mr. ball. that would be the entry to the homicide and robbery? mr. fritz. homicide and robbery bureau. mr. ball. this is your office? mr. fritz. my office opens right here. mr. ball. off of the hall? mr. fritz. yes, sir. mr. ball. off the homicide and robbery? mr. fritz. yes; there should be another line, wait just a minute. there is a little mistake right here, would it be all right if i correct it? mr. ball. go ahead and correct it, your office is farther back from the hall, isn't it? mr. fritz. you see this, coming up from the hall, down at this end the administrative office, the chief's office, and the dispatcher's office over here, and over here is the chief's office back here, here are some assistant chiefs all along here, and in this corner. now, in coming down this hall, this is open right in here that makes a square that goes into the other building in city hall, and this comes to the elevators, the elevators are right here. now then, right here in this little jail office, a little small office for the jail elevators right here, and two toilets right here. now then, this should have a hallway in here like that, beginning right here. mr. ball. you are adding to chief curry's map showing a little hallway? mr. fritz. that is right. this is the lieutenant's office right here. mr. ball. you are marking "lieutenant's office." mr. fritz. yes, sir; and that is his--that is placed there just like my office is, and right at the end of this hall, right here, using a little part of that probably, but in there is a little conference room right in here which comes clear across here. here, i have a desk, a metal desk with all the records, daily record, the working records stacked right on here for the benefit of the officers who work in this squadroom right here with these desks. mr. ball. where is the door to your office? mr. fritz. here is the door to my office right here. mr. ball. mark that, please. show me where oswald was kept. mr. fritz. in this little place right here. mr. ball. put a big x there where oswald was kept. mr. fritz. at first? mr. ball. at first. mr. fritz. he was there when i came in. we didn't keep him there long. mr. ball. that was only a few steps from your office? mr. fritz. only a few steps. that is where he was when i came into the office. mr. ball. in the room marked "x" on this exhibit no. is where he was? mr. fritz. yes, sir. mr. ball. after a few moments you had him come in, in a little while, to your office? mr. fritz. yes, sir. mr. ball. do you have that in time when he came into your office? mr. fritz. the chief's map would have been, i could have made this better if i had used the chief's map and put the lieutenant's office over here. mr. ball. don't worry about it. that is close enough. we have him from x which is the conference room into your office. mr. fritz. yes; my desk is right here and i sit behind it right here and there are some chairs and telephone table right here and i had him sitting in a chair, right here. mr. ball. right beside you? mr. fritz. yes, sir; i have other chairs along here. mr. ball. all right. now, captain, about what time did you first bring him to your office? mr. fritz. let's see, i have it right here. oswald was arrested at : and i think he was taken to the city hall about : and i started talking to him probably a little bit after that. mr. ball. about what time? don't you have a time marked in your report there? mr. fritz. i think so. mr. ball. of : . mr. fritz. : ? mr. ball. on page of your report, your report of sims and boyd refers to a time that he was brought to your room, and i believe . mr. fritz. my report, my report should have a report right there that should show it. this shows here : and i don't think that is right. mr. ball. mr. baker's report on gives the time also. mr. fritz. the nearest that i have here then would be shortly after : p.m. mr. ball. you will notice that sims and boyd make it, state they brought him from the conference room to your office at about : . mr. fritz. that might be all right because i have : here but i think : may be or minutes too early. mr. ball. it was soon after you got there? mr. fritz. soon after i got there. mr. ball. that you brought him into your office? mr. fritz. yes, sir. mr. ball. who was present when you talked with him? mr. fritz. at that time, when i first brought him in there there would be sims and boyd and probably one or two officers from the office, i am not sure, just who else might have been there. i know those two, i am sure, i believe those two were there. just about the time i started talking to him, i had just started to question him, i got a phone call from mr. shanklin, gordon shanklin, agent in charge of the fbi calling for mr. bookhout, and i asked mr. bookhout to go to pick up the extension. mr. ball. was mr. bookhout there? mr. fritz. he had just come into the lieutenant's office and mr. shanklin asked that mr. hosty be in on that questioning, he said he wanted him in there because of mr. hosty knowing these people and he had been talking to them and he wanted him in there right then. so, i got up from my desk and walked over to the lieutenant's office and asked mr. bookhout to come in, the reason i asked both of them to come in and mr. bookhout is in my office most of every day and works with us in a lot of cases and asked him to come in with mr. hosty. mr. ball. so bookhout and hosty came into your office? mr. fritz. yes, sir. mr. ball. was anyone else present? mr. fritz. i don't remember whether there was anyone else right at that time or not. mr. ball. do you remember what you said to oswald and what he said to you? mr. fritz. i can remember the thing that i said to him and what he said to me, but i will have trouble telling you which period of questioning those questions were in because i kept no notes at the time, and these notes and things that i have made i would have to make several days later, and the questions may be in the wrong place. mr. ball. what is your best memory of what you said to him when he first came in? mr. fritz. i first asked him as i do of most people something about where he was from, and where he was raised and his education, and i asked him where he went to school and he told me he went to school in new york for a while, he had gone to school in fort worth some, that he didn't finish high school, that he went to the marines, and the marines, and finished high school training in the marines. and i don't remember just what else. i asked him just the general questions for getting acquainted with him, and so i would see about how to talk to him, and mr. hosty spoke up and asked him something about russia, and asked him if he had been to russia, and he asked him if he had been to mexico city, and this irritated oswald a great deal and he beat on the desk and went into a kind of a tantrum. mr. ball. what did he say when he was asked if he had been to mexico city? mr. fritz. he said he had not been. he did say he had been to russia, he was in russia, i believe he said for some time. mr. ball. he said he had not been in mexico city? mr. fritz. at that time he told me he had not been in mexico city. mr. ball. who asked the question whether or not he had been to mexico city? mr. fritz. mr. hosty. i wouldn't have known anything about mexico city. mr. ball. was there anything said about oswald's wife? mr. fritz. yes, sir. he said, he told hosty, he said, "i know you." he said, "you accosted my wife on two occasions," and he was getting pretty irritable and so i wanted to quiet him down a little bit because i noticed if i talked to him in a calm, easy manner it wasn't very hard to get him to settle down, and i asked him what he meant by accosting, i thought maybe he meant some physical abuse or something and he said, "well, he threatened her." and he said, "he practically told her she would have to go back to russia." and he said, "he accosted her on two different occasions." mr. ball. was there anything said about where he lived? mr. fritz. where he lived? right at that time? mr. ball. yes. mr. fritz. i am sure i had no way of asking him where he lived but i am not too sure about that--just how quick he told me because he corrected me, i thought he lived in irving and he told me he didn't live in irving. he lived on beckley as the officer had told me outside. (at this point mr. dulles entered the hearing room.) mr. fritz. and i asked him about that arrangement and i am again, i can't be too sure when this question was asked. i asked him why his wife was living in irving and why he was living on beckley and he said she was living with mrs. paine. mrs. paine was trying to learn to speak russian and that his wife, mrs. oswald, had a small baby and mrs. paine helped with the baby and his wife taught mrs. paine russian and it made a good arrangement for both of them and he stayed over in town. i thought it was kind of an awkward arrangement and i questioned him about the arrangement a little bit and i asked him how often he went out there and he said weekends. i asked him why he didn't stay out there. he said he didn't want to stay out there all the time, mrs. paine and her husband didn't get along too well. they were separated a good part of the time and i asked him if he had a car and he said he didn't have a car, he said the paines had two cars but he didn't use their cars. mr. ball. did you ask him anything about his address or did he volunteer the address? mr. fritz. he volunteered the address at beckley? mr. ball. yes. mr. fritz. well, i will tell you, whether we asked him or told him one, he never did deny it, he never did deny the beckley street address at all. the only thing was he didn't know whether it was north or south. mr. ball. did you ask him whether it was north or south? mr. fritz. yes, but he didn't know. but from the description of surroundings we could tell it was north beckley. mr. ball. up to that time you hadn't sent any men out to north beckley, had you? mr. fritz. well, i sent them out there real soon and officer potts called me back from out there and talked to me on the telephone and gave me a report from out there on the telephone, and i am sure that that is the time that he told me about the way he was registered, and i asked oswald about why he was registered under this other name. mr. ball. what other name? mr. fritz. of o. l. lee. mr. ball. o. h. lee? mr. fritz. o. h. lee. he said, well, the lady didn't understand him, she put it down there and he just left it that way. mr. ball. did you ask him whether he had signed his name o. h. lee? mr. fritz. no, i hadn't asked him. mr. ball. did you know that he had personally registered? mr. fritz. no, sir; i did not. mr. ball. he said the lady didn't understand him? mr. fritz. he said the lady didn't understand him and he just left it that way. mr. ball. how long did this first questioning take? mr. fritz. of course, i talked to him several times during that afternoon. i would have to go out and talk to every officer and give them different assignments and talk to them about these witnesses, and help some in getting the witnesses over there. i also asked lieutenant day to bring the rifle down after i sent after mrs. oswald, and had her to look at the rifle. she couldn't identify it positively but she said it looked like the rifle that he had, but she couldn't say for sure. she said she thought he brought it from new orleans. mr. ball. how long a time did you sit with oswald and question him this first time? mr. fritz. the first time, not but a few minutes. mr. ball. that was the time hosty and bookhout were there? mr. fritz. that is right. but sometimes when i would leave the office to do something else, it is hard to imagine how many things we had happening at the one time or how many different officers we had doing different things without seeing it but we were terribly busy. i had called all my officers back on duty and had every one of them assigned to something, so going back and forth kept me pretty busy running back and forth at the time of questioning. i don't know when i would leave, i suppose mr. bookhout and mr. hosty asked him a few questions, but i don't believe they questioned him a great deal while i was gone. mr. ball. you said just a few minutes, what did you mean by that, , , ? mr. fritz. it would be pretty hard to guess at a time like that because we weren't even quitting for lunch so i don't even know, time didn't mean much right at that time. for a few minutes, you would think or minutes the first time. mr. ball. thirty or forty minutes? mr. fritz. i am guessing at that time. mr. ball. he hadn't been searched up to that time, had he? mr. fritz. yes, sir; he had been searched. mr. ball. wasn't he searched later in the jail office? mr. fritz. he was searched, the officers who arrested him made the first search, i am sure. he had another search at the building and i believe that one of my officers, mr. boyd, found some cartridges in his pocket in the room after he came to the city hall. i can't tell you the exact time when he searched him. mr. bail. you don't have the record of the time when he was searched? mr. fritz. no. mr. ball. you remember they found a transfer of dallas transit company? mr. fritz. yes, sir; found a transfer. mr. ball. and some bullets? mr. fritz. bullets; yes, sir. cartridges. mr. ball. he had an identification bracelet, too, didn't he? mr. fritz. i am not sure about that. mr. ball. you don't remember? mr. fritz. no. mr. ball. you had a showup that afternoon? mr. fritz. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. may i ask what kind of bullets these were? mr. fritz. . , cartridges for a . pistol. mr. mccloy. pistol? mr. fritz. yes, pistol cartridges. mr. ball. you had a showup that afternoon? mr. fritz. that first showup was for a lady who was an eye witness and we were trying to get that showup as soon as we could because she was beginning to faint and getting sick. in fact, i had to leave the office and carry some ammonia across the hall, they were about to send her to the hospital or something and we needed that identification real quickly, and she got to feeling all right after using this ammonia. mr. ball. do you remember her name? mr. fritz. i have her name here. mr. ball. was that mrs. markham? mr. fritz. yes, helen markham. mr. ball. that was the first showup, was it? mr. fritz. yes, sir. mr. ball. were you there? mr. fritz. yes, sir. mr. ball. with her? mr. fritz. yes, sir. mr. ball. will you tell me what happened there? mr. fritz. she looked at these people very carefully, and she picked him out and made the positive identification. mr. ball. what did she say? mr. fritz. she said that is the man that i saw shoot the officer. mr. ball. who did she point out? mr. fritz. she pointed out oswald; yes, sir. mr. ball. in your showup room you have the prisoners separated from the visitors? mr. fritz. there is a screen. they are on a stage with numbers over their heads for identification, and measurements to show their height, and this is lighted back there so the people can see them plainly, and the people who are looking at them usually sit at desks out some distance, probably as far as here from that window from the showup screen. mr. ball. near the window, you mean about , feet. mr. fritz. yes; about that far. mr. ball. and then, now in this showup there were two officers of the vice squad and an officer and a clerk from the jail that were in the showup with oswald? mr. fritz. that is true. i borrowed those officers, i was a little bit afraid some prisoner might hurt him, there was a lot of excitement and a lot of feeling right about that time so we didn't have an officer in my office the right size to show with him so i asked two of the special service officers if they would help me and they said they would be glad to, so they took off their coats and neckties and fixed themselves where they would look like prisoners and they were good enough to stand on each side of him in the showup and we used a man who works in the jail office, a civilian employee as a third man. mr. ball. now, were they dressed a little better than oswald, do you think, these three people? mr. fritz. well, i don't think there was a great deal of difference. they had on their regular working clothes and after they opened their shirts and took off their ties, why they looked very much like anyone else. mr. ball. they were all handcuffed together, were they? mr. fritz. i am not sure, i don't remember for sure if they were all handcuffed together or not. they probably did. i couldn't be positive about that. mr. ball. now, after you had had the showup with helen markham, did you question oswald again? mr. fritz. yes, sir. mr. ball. in your office? mr. fritz. yes, sir. mr. ball. go directly from the showup room up there? mr. fritz. well, i am not sure whether directly, but shortly, there wouldn't be too much time when we talk to him after that. mr. ball. your records show the showup for helen markham was : . mr. fritz. yes, sir. mr. ball. do you think that is about right? mr. fritz. i think that is about right. mr. ball. all right, now how long after that would you say you went back to your office and talked to him again? mr. fritz. i would say within, it would take us a few minutes, you know, to get him back from the showup, probably minutes, something like that. mr. ball. who was present? mr. fritz. twenty minutes. mr. ball. who was present at this questioning? mr. fritz. this particular questioning? mr. ball. yes. mr. fritz. i believe--i don't want to be sure about whether mr. hosty stayed at this next time or not because he left at some time. mr. bookhout stayed and my officers were there. mr. ball. now, there was a time when you asked him where he worked and what he did? mr. fritz. yes, sir. mr. ball. and was that the first---- mr. fritz. that was the first time. mr. ball. the first question--what did he tell you about that? mr. fritz. he told me he worked at the texas school book depository. mr. ball. did he tell you---- mr. fritz. i asked him how he got his job down there, too. mr. ball. what did he say? mr. fritz. he told me that someone that he knew, a lady that he knew recommended him for that job and he got that job through her. i believe the records show something else but that is what he told me. mr. ball. did you ask him what happened that day; where he had been? mr. fritz. yes, sir. mr. ball. what did he say? mr. fritz. well he told me that he was eating lunch with some of the employees when this happened, and that he saw all the excitement and he didn't think--i also asked him why he left the building. he said there was so much excitement there then that "i didn't think there would be any work done that afternoon and we don't punch a clock and they don't keep very close time on our work and i just left." mr. ball. at that time didn't you know that one of your officers, baker, had seen oswald on the second floor? mr. fritz. they told me about that down at the bookstore; i believe mr. truly or someone told me about it, told me they had met him--i think he told me, person who told me about, i believe told me that they met him on the stairway, but our investigation shows that he actually saw him in a lunchroom, a little lunchroom where they were eating, and he held his gun on this man and mr. truly told him that he worked there, and the officer let him go. mr. ball. did you question oswald about that? mr. fritz. yes, sir; i asked him about that and he knew that the officer stopped him all right. mr. ball. did you ask him what he was doing in the lunchroom? mr. fritz. he said he was having his lunch. he had a cheese sandwich and a coca-cola. mr. ball. did he tell you he was up there to get a coca-cola? mr. fritz. he said he had a coca-cola. mr. ball. that same time you also asked him about the rifle. mr. fritz. i am not sure that is the time i asked him about the rifle. i did ask him about the rifle sometime soon after that occurred, and after the showup; i am not sure which time i asked him about the rifle. mr. ball. did you bring the rifle down to your office? mr. fritz. not to him; not for him to see. mr. ball. you never showed it to him? mr. fritz. no, sir. i asked him if he owned a rifle and he said he did not. i asked him if he had ever owned a rifle. he said a good many years ago he owned a small rifle but he hadn't owned one for a long time. i asked him if he owned a rifle in russia and he said, "you know you can't own a rifle in russia." he said, "i had a shotgun over there. you can't own a rifle in russia." and he denied owning a rifle of any kind. mr. ball. didn't he say that he had seen a rifle at the building? mr. fritz. yes, sir; he told me he had seen a rifle at the building or days before that mr. truly and some men were looking at. mr. ball. you asked him why he left the building, didn't you? mr. fritz. yes, sir. mr. ball. he told you because he didn't think there would be any work? mr. fritz. yes, sir. mr. ball. did you ask him what he did after he left the building? mr. fritz. yes, sir. mr. ball. what did he say? mr. fritz. he told me he went over and caught a bus and rode the bus to north beckley near where he lived and went by home and changed clothes and got his pistol and went to the show. i asked him why he took his pistol and he said, "well, you know about a pistol; i just carried it." let's see if i asked him anything else right that minute. that is just about it. mr. ball. did you ask him if he killed tippit? mr. fritz. sir? mr. ball. did you ask him if he shot tippit? mr. fritz. oh, yes. mr. ball. what did he say. mr. fritz. he denied it--that he did not. the only thing he said he had done wrong, "the only law i violated was in the show; i hit the officer in the show; he hit me in the eye and i guess i deserved it." he said, "that is the only law i violated." he said, "that is the only thing i have done wrong." mr. ball. now, in this first conversation he told you that he had lived at beckley, didn't he? mr. fritz. yes, sir. he didn't know whether it was north or south. mr. ball. and you sent a group of officers out there to search that address? mr. fritz. yes, sir; that is right. mr. ball. before you talked to him the second time you had talked to potts on the telephone, had you not? mr. fritz. yes, sir; i had. mr. ball. he told you what he had done? mr. fritz. yes, sir. i should have remembered that when i talked to you this morning. mr. ball. wasn't there some conversation also about what his political beliefs were? mr. fritz. i believe that is later. i asked him about his political beliefs and he said that he believed in fair play for cuba. he said he was a member of the fair play for cuba organization. they had headquarters in new york, had an office in new orleans. at one time he had been secretary for this organization down there. i asked him if he belonged to any other organizations of any kind, and he said he belonged to the american civil liberties union, and i asked him what dues he paid. he said, "$ per month." i believe he said, or for a year. i am not positive about that. i would have to look at my notes. mr. ball. was that at the first or second questioning? mr. fritz. i think it was the second or third; that was later. mr. ball. later on? mr. fritz. yes, sir. i don't think i talked to him about his political beliefs until later. mr. ball. did you say anything to him about an attorney the first time you talked to him? mr. fritz. yes, sir; the first time. he asked about an attorney, and i told him he certainly could have an attorney any time he wanted it. i told him he could have an attorney any time he liked, any attorney he wanted. i told him, i said, we will do it. he said he wanted an attorney in new york. and he gave me his name, mr. abt, and he said that is who he wanted, and i told him he could have anyone he liked. he said, well, he knew about a case that he had handled some years ago, where he represented the people who had violated the smith act, and he said, "i don't know him personally, but that is the attorney i want." he said, "if i can't get him then i may get the american civil liberties union to get me an attorney." mr. ball. was there anything said about calling him on the telephone? mr. fritz. a little bit later. mr. ball. not that time? mr. fritz. not that minute. a little bit later, he asked something else about an attorney and i said, "did you call an attorney?" and he said, "you know i can't use the telephone." and i said, "yes, you can; anybody can use a telephone." so, i told them to be sure to let him use a telephone and the next time i talked to him he thanked me for that, so i presume he called. mr. ball. you don't know whether he called? mr. fritz. i don't know whether he did or not. mr. ball. when you say a little bit later, you mean another period of questioning? mr. fritz. sometime during that talk. mr. ball. you haven't identified these periods of questioning by time. mr. fritz. i can't identify them positively. i can do the best i can by memory, but i wouldn't want to try to answer any of these questions by time because i might get them in the wrong question and in the wrong--time span. mr. ball. at : you had another showup, at which time mcwatters, guinyard, and callaway--do you remember those witnesses? callaway is the car salesman, and sam guinyard is the porter at the used-car lot at the corner of patton and jefferson, and mcwatters is a cabdriver--no; is a busdriver. mr. fritz. we have the names; if those names are right, that is true. at that time on this showup we put some officers up on the stage with him; officers stayed on the stage with him during the showup. mr. ball. i point that time out as : because it appears that you started to question oswald after you had the markham showup sometime after : , : , : . did you question him steadily from then until : , the time of the second showup? mr. fritz. i don't--i don't believe there was any time when i went through a very long period without having to step to the door, or step outside, to get a report from some pair of officers, or to give them additional assignments. mr. ball. where did you keep him; in what room? mr. fritz. in my office there. mr. ball. he was in your office all the time? mr. fritz. yes, sir; within there. mr. ball. between the two showups at : and : , he was in your office all the time? mr. fritz. well, i believe he was there all that time; let's see, : to : ; i don't remember him being carried out there any time. mr. ball. was he being questioned by somebody all the time, whether you or somebody else? mr. fritz. i doubt it, because i don't think those officers talked to him very much while i was out of the office, i think they might have asked him a few questions, but didn't ask him much. mr. ball. were you present at the showup when callaway and guinyard and the busdriver were there? mr. fritz. i don't believe so. mr. ball. now, your records show that in your office at : there was an arraignment; do you remember that? mr. fritz. yes, sir; i remember that arraignment. mr. ball. will you tell us what happened then? it doesn't show arraignments. mr. fritz. do you show arraignment for : ? mr. ball. no; : . , you discussed, you met with alexander, the district attorney's office, didn't you? mr. fritz. i probably did. i probably talked to him about the evidence. mr. ball. he was arraigned at : . mr. fritz. he was in our outer office most all the time and i talked to him two, three different times. mr. ball. did he ever take part in the questioning of oswald? mr. fritz. i don't believe so; no, sir. mr. ball. what happened at : ? mr. fritz. : we had this arraignment with judge david johnston, and present. i was present, and officers sims, boyd, hall, and mr. alexander from the district attorney's office, and that was in my office. mr. ball. how was the arraignment conducted? mr. fritz. well, the judge gave him a warning, talked to him for a little bit. mr. ball. what warning did he give him? mr. fritz. he advised him of his rights. i believe he had a form; i couldn't repeat it, of course, but i believe he had some forms that he went over with him. mr. ball. what rights did he advise him of; do you know? mr. fritz. of his rights for an attorney, and everything that he told was supposed to be voluntary and things of that kind. mr. ball. he was advised that he had a right to an attorney, was he? mr. fritz. yes, sir; i am sure he was; i advised him on that on two or three different occasions. mr. ball. did--you have a rule in texas, do you, that whatever a witness, a person in custody, says cannot be used against him unless he is warned? mr. fritz. we do have; yes, sir. we have to warn them before we can use the testimony. we have to warn them in the beginning before he is questioned. mr. ball. before he is questioned you must warn him? mr. fritz. yes. mr. ball. before you questioned oswald the first time, did you warn him? mr fritz. yes, sir. mr. ball. what did you tell him? what were the words you used? mr. fritz. i told him that any evidence that he gave me would be used against him, and the offense for which the statement was made, that it would have to be voluntary, made of his own accord. mr. bill. did he reply to that? mr. fritz. he told me that he didn't want a lawyer and he told me once or twice that he didn't want to answer any questions at all. and once or twice he did quit answering any questions and he told me he did want to talk to his attorney, and i told him each time he didn't have to if he didn't want to. so, later he sometimes would start talking to me again. mr. ball. do you remember when you warned him again? mr. fritz. yes, sir; i warned him two or three different times; yes, sir. mr. ball. do you remember when those times were? mr. fritz. no, sir; but during the afternoon. mr. ball. they were--you were more or less continuously questioning through the afternoon, were you? mr. fritz. yes, sir. mr. ball. now, at : , he was arraigned in your office? mr. fritz. yes, sir. mr. ball. by arraign you mean he was informed of the charge against him? mr. fritz. that is right. mr. ball. he wasn't asked to plea. mr. fritz. before a judge, before a justice of the peace, a magistrate. mr. ball. it is not your practice to ask for a plea at that stage, is it? mr. fritz. no, sir; we don't. mr. ball. all you do is advise him of his rights and the charge against him? mr. fritz. that is right, i am not a lawyer, you might feel--i don't want to leave a bad impression, i am just telling you what we do. mr. ball. what the practice is in texas. mr. fritz. yes, sir. mr. ball. did oswald make any reply to judge johnston? mr. fritz. he said a lot of sarcastic things to him. mr. ball. what did he say? mr. fritz. irritable. i can't remember all the things that he said. he was that way at each arraignment. he said little sarcastic things, some of the things were a little impudent things. mr. ball. after the arraignment, your records show that there was--he talked to an agent named clements, do you remember that? mr. fritz. i believe that during one of the times when i was out, had to leave the office for a minute to attend to something, mr. clements asked me if it would be all right for him to take a little personal history. mr. ball. were you present at that time? mr. fritz. no. mr. ball. that was in your office? mr. fritz. in the office. mr. ball. who was there at the time? mr. fritz. i don't know. he was there, i know some of my officers were there, they had to watch him all the time. mr. ball. sims and boyd? mr. fritz. if they weren't there, some homicide officers were. mr. ball. you had two officers with him all times? mr. fritz. yes, sir; sometimes three. mr. ball. always with him in the room? mr. fritz. yes, sir; all the time. they never questioned him but they stayed in the room. mr. ball. then your records show another showup at : ? mr. fritz. at what time? mr. ball. : , that is the third showup. mrs. davis---- mr. fritz. that would be showup no. . mr. ball. that is showup no. . mr. fritz. showup no. was held for barbara jean davis. mr. ball. and virginia davis. mr. fritz. virginia davis. mr. ball. were you there at the time of the showup? mr. fritz. no, sir; i don't believe i was there, mr. hall, mr. sims, mr. boyd, and mr. moore. mr. ball. do you know who chose the people for the showup there? mr. fritz. who showed the people; yes, sir. mr. ball. who chose the people. there is a walter, richard walter borchgardt. mr. fritz. are those the people you mean for the showup? mr. ball. yes. mr. fritz. no, sir; i don't know who chose those people. mr. ball. don braswell and john abel. mr. fritz. no, sir; that would be done by my officers. mr. ball. and you don't think you were present at that? mr. fritz. no, sir; i don't believe so. mr. ball. did you ever ask him if he had kept a rifle in the garage at irving? mr. fritz. yes, sir; i did. i asked him and i asked him if he had brought one from new orleans. he said he didn't. mr. ball. he did not. mr. fritz. that is right. i told him the people at the paine residence said he did have a rifle out there, and he kept it out there and he kept it wrapped in a blanket and he said that wasn't true. mr. ball. do you remember when that was that you asked him? mr. fritz. no, sir; during some of those questions. mr. ball. it was after stovall and adamcik had come back? mr. fritz. i believe so. mr. ball. now, during the evening, did you question him some more? mr. fritz. well, i am sure that i did. let me see. mr. ball. it shows he was fingerprinted at : . mr. fritz. i probably talked to him a little bit more after that. it shows he was fingerprinted at what time? mr. ball. : . or o'clock, around o'clock. fingerprinted, at that time there was a paraffin test of the hands and face. mr. fritz. i don't believe he was fingerprinted. i think we made the paraffin test in my office. mr. ball. there was a paraffin test. mr. fritz. i allowed them to use any office right there to make a paraffin test. mr. ball. and your records show he was fingerprinted there, too. mr. fritz. it is possible, i didn't stay there with him. he could have. i don't think they fingerprinted him at that time. i wouldn't see any need for it. mr. ball. did you ever talk--you remember wesley frazier who came into the department and made a statement, do you, the boy who---- mr. fritz. i think i remember some man. i believe that is his correct name, some man who came in with some story about seeing oswald run from the building. mr. ball. no. mr. fritz. that is not the one? mr. ball. a boy who lived in irving who drove oswald weekends back and forth from irving. mr. fritz. yes. mr. ball. you remember you talked to him that night and he told about a package that oswald carried into the texas school book depository building that morning. mr. fritz. yes, sir; that is right. mr. ball. do you remember what that was? mr. fritz. he said he asked him what it was and he told him it was curtain rods. mr. ball. did you ever talk to oswald about that? mr. fritz. yes, sir; i did. mr. ball. when? mr. fritz. i talked to him about that on the last morning before his transfer. mr. ball. that was on sunday morning? mr. fritz. sunday morning, that would be the th, wouldn't it? mr. ball. yes. mr. fritz. and i asked him about that and he denied having anything to do with any curtain rods. it is possible that i could have asked him that on one of those other times, too, but i know i asked him that question the last morning. mr. ball. well, you learned about it on friday night according to your reports here when mr. frazier came in and you gave frazier a polygraph test. mr. fritz. i hesitated to ask him about those curtain rods and i will tell you why i hesitated, because i wanted to find out more about that package before i got started with the curtain rods because if there were curtain rods i didn't want to mention it to him but we couldn't find--i talked to his wife and asked her if they were going to use any curtain rods, while i was talking to her that afternoon and she didn't know anything about it. no; i believe i talked to mrs. paine, one of them. mr. ball. do you think you talked to oswald before sunday morning about curtain rods? mr. fritz. it is possible but i know i talked to him sunday morning. mr. ball. now, did you tell him what frazier had told you? mr. fritz. i don't know that i told him what frazier had told me but i told him someone had told me. mr. ball. what did you tell him? mr. fritz. i told him he had a package and put it in the back seat and it was a package about that long and it was curtain rods. he said he didn't have any kind of a package but his lunch. he said he had his lunch and that is all he had, and mr. frazier told me that he got out of the car with that package, he saw him go toward the building with this long package. i asked him, i said, "did you go toward the building carrying a long package?" he said, "no. i didn't carry anything but my lunch." mr. ball. did frazier ever tell you how long the package was? mr. fritz. he just measured, told me about that long. mr. ball. approximately how long? mr. fritz. i am guessing at this, the way he measured, probably inches, inches, something like that. too short for the length of that rifle unless he took it down, i presume he took it down if it was in there, and i am sure it was. mr. ball. do you remember what time you--was it the way frazier showed it to you--was it the size of a rifle that was broken down? mr. fritz. yes, sir; it would be just about right. mr. ball. later that night you took him down to the showuproom again, didn't you, when you had a press interview? mr. fritz. no, sir; i didn't have a press conference. mr. ball. you didn't? mr. fritz. no. mr. ball. did you give any instructions to the press conference? mr. fritz. yes, sir; the chief told me he wanted him brought down for a press conference, and i told my officers to take them down and i asked the chief to let me put it on the stage. i was a little bit afraid something might happen to him in front of that stage, someone in the crowd might hurt him but he said no, he wanted him out there in the front, and i told him i would like to put him on the stage so that the officers could jerk him inside the jail office if anything happened but he said no, he wanted him in front, so i told the officers to take him down. i went down later to see how everything was going but i couldn't get in. the crowd had jammed clear back out into the hall. mr. ball. do you know what time you sent him up to the jail? mr. fritz. i have it here, i think-- : ; yes, sir. mr. ball. : ? mr. fritz. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. may i ask you a question? mr. fritz. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. where was the--where did you first see the gun that was presumably used in the murder of tippit? mr. fritz. of tippit? mr. mccloy. tippit, yes; . -caliber pistol. mr. fritz. the officers brought that in, you know, when they brought him in from the arrest at oak cliff. mr. mccloy. and they had that, you had seen it at about the time you first saw oswald? mr. fritz. well, a few minutes later. mr. mccloy. a few minutes later? mr. fritz. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. it did show signs from your experience of having been recently fired? mr. fritz. i don't believe you can tell about that too well any more. you know the old style ammunition you could tell if a gun had been fired recently by the residue left in the barrel and smelling the barrel, but with the new ammunition they don't have that. mr. mccloy. and this was new ammunition that he was using? mr. fritz. yes, sir; he was using new ammunition. mr. mccloy. was the gun fully loaded when it was taken from him? mr. fritz. i didn't see it loaded, of course, it would have been unloaded. i understood it was fully loaded, but i didn't see it. mr. dulles. that is he had replaced the bullets that he had used, is that it? mr. fritz. yes, sir; the people told us as he ran across the yard he was reloading the gun as he ran across the yard. yes; the witnesses told us that. mr. mccloy. if i can take you back a little further also. mr. fritz. all right, sir. mr. mccloy. did you see the gun in the position, the rifle i am talking about now. mr. fritz. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. did you see the rifle in the position in which it was found? mr. fritz. yes, sir; i did. mr. mccloy. where was it found? mr. fritz. it was found back near the stairway in a little--some boxes were stacked about this far apart, about that far apart. the rifle was down on the floor and partially under these boxes back near the stairway in the corner of the building. mr. mccloy. this was on the sixth floor? mr. fritz. sixth floor; yes, sir. mr. mccloy. nobody had touched it by the time you saw it? mr. fritz. no, sir; nobody touched it. they called me as soon as they saw it and i went back there and i saw it. mr. mccloy. then you say the rifle was then dusted? mr. fritz. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. does that mean the laboratory people had already come there then? mr. fritz. he came down from where he had been; he was on the same floor checking the empty cartridges, and he came back. mr. mccloy. oh, yes. mr. fritz. to the back, when i called him, and he came back there and checked the rifle; yes, sir. mr. mccloy. when you went up to the sixth floor from which oswald apparently had fired these shots, what did it look like there, what was the--how were things arranged there? was there anything in the nature of a gun rest there or anything that could be used as a gun rest? mr. fritz. you mean up in the corner where he shot from, from the window? mr. mccloy. yes. mr. fritz. yes, sir; there were some boxes stacked there and i believe one box, one small box i believe was in the window, and another box was on the floor. there were some boxes stacked to his right that more or less blinded him from the rest of the floor. if anyone else had been on the floor i doubt if they could have seen where he was sitting. mr. mccloy. did you see anything other---- mr. fritz. lieutenant day, of course, made a detailed description of all of that and he can give it to you much better than i can. mr. mccloy. he is going to be here? mr. fritz. yes, sir; and he will give it to you in detail; yes, sir. mr. dulles. when was the paper bag covering that apparently he brought the rifle in, was that discovered in the sixth floor about the same time? mr. fritz. no, sir; that was recovered a little later. i wasn't down there when that was found. mr. dulles. it was recovered on the sixth floor, was it not? mr. fritz. yes, sir; i believe so. we can check here and see. i believe it was. but i wasn't there when that was recovered. mr. ball. here is a picture of commission exhibit . mr. fritz. that is the--do i have it turned around? mr. ball. do you recognize it? mr. fritz. that is it. mr. ball. is that the scene that was photographed by the crime lab group? mr. fritz. yes, sir; that is right. but there is one thing that this picture is a little bit deceiving in one way. this picture is taken with a man standing, no doubt, on boxes up high like this, standing down level on the floor. this gun was partially under the end of those boxes right there. you see the camera evidently took a picture under like that, and he got a little more gun than you would see if you were standing on the floor. mr. ball. i want to ask you about a showup. mr. fritz. yes, sir. mr. ball. callaway and guinyard and mcwatters. you did you say you were present at that showup? that is no. . mr. fritz. no. showup. i show there leavelle, brown, and dougherty. it doesn't show that i was at that showup. mr. ball. you were at that showup? mr. fritz. no, sir; it doesn't show. mr. ball. did you talk to callaway before he went to the showup? mr. fritz. callaway--i will have to look there to see. can you tell me something about what he has testified? mr. ball. callaway is a tall blond man, he was a used car salesman, used carlot on the corner of patton and jefferson. mr. fritz. i believe officer leavelle talked to him. any of these witnesses when i say i didn't talk to them, that doesn't mean i didn't go out and say something to them but i didn't question them. mr. ball. did you say to anyone of these witnesses, "we think we have got the man that killed tippit and he is probably the man who killed the president"? anything like that? mr. fritz. i don't remember saying anything like that. mr. ball. did you say, "i want you to look at him good because we want to make the identification." mr. fritz. oh, no. we didn't need to. the first witness that went down with me convinced me on the tippit killing. mr. mccloy. that is mrs. markham? mr. fritz. yes; helen markham. and she was a real good witness and she identified him positively and picked him out in a manner that you could tell she was honest in her identification. mr. ball. we came up to the time you got him in jail that is at : . mr. fritz. yes, sir. mr. ball. were you through with him at that time? mr. fritz. no, sir. mr. ball. did you see him again? mr. fritz. i believe we had another arraignment, did we not? mr. ball. you had an arraignment charging him with the assassination of president kennedy, murder of president kennedy. mr. fritz. yes, sir; i went to that arraignment. mr. ball. that was at what time? i believe you showed it at : a.m. in your records. mr. fritz. that would be about right. mr. ball. : ? mr. fritz. i will tell you in a minute to be sure. i show : . mr. ball. that was where? mr. fritz. in the identification bureau. mr. ball. who was present? mr. fritz. that is just outside the jail. mr. ball. who was present at that time? mr. fritz. well, i show bill alexander of the district attorney's office, henry wade. that was before judge johnston also, and i was there, and i am sure of three or four other people that i can't name. i think chief curry might have gone to this, i can't answer for him, but i believe he might have. mr. ball. that is one, : a.m., shortly after midnight was the arraignment. mr. fritz. yes, sir. mr. ball. now, your records show that he was checked in the jail at : a.m. and it doesn't show a checkout when he was taken to the arraignment. mr. fritz. to the arraignment. it probably wouldn't show that. sometimes those cards, i don't usually make cards if the man is still in the custody of the jailers, and sometimes, of course, they might miss a card anyway because we use a lot of civilian employees up there. mr. ball. and the jailer was there with him, wasn't he? mr. fritz. yes, sir. he brought him out. mr. ball. another thing, that day, at sometime during the d when you questioned oswald, didn't you ask him about this card he had in his pocket with the name alek hidell? mr. fritz. i did; yes, sir. mr. ball. what did you ask him about that? mr. fritz. i believe he had three of those cards if i remember correctly, and he told me that was the name that he picked up in new orleans that he had used sometimes. one of the cards looked like it might have been altered a little bit and one of them i believe was the fair play for cuba and one looked like a social security card or something. mr. ball. yes. mr. fritz. we have pictures of those cards here. you no doubt have them. mr. ball. yes. we have them. did he say that he had used that as a name? mr. fritz. he told me that is a name he picked up in new orleans. mr. ball. did he say---- mr. fritz. i presumed by that he had used it by saying he had picked it up in new orleans. mr. ball. to one officer he said he didn't want to talk about that or he wouldn't talk about that? mr. fritz. that is right. very often he would do that. he would tell him some things and tell me some things. mr. ball. i am talking about this card, a. hidell. do you recall whether he told you he had picked it up in new orleans and--or did he tell you he didn't want to talk about it? he wouldn't talk about it? mr. fritz. he didn't tell me he wouldn't want to talk about it. he told me he had picked it up down there and when i questioned further then he told me he didn't want to talk about it. mr. ball. now, the next morning or the next day you questioned him again, didn't you? mr. fritz. let's see, that would be on the d. mr. ball. you had another showup on the d in the afternoon, but apparently that morning before the showup you talked to him in your office? mr. fritz. yes, sir. mr. ball. what do your records show as to the first time you talked to him on november ? mr. fritz. let's see. mr. ball. i believe if you will look on page of b of your formal report that will refresh your memory. mr. fritz. which part of this do you want now? mr. ball. i want to know what time you started to question him on november . mr. fritz. i think i can get that time out of the little book. mr. ball. if you look at the top of page there. mr. fritz. i don't have it. mr. ball. do you have b? mr. fritz. yes; i have it. i show : a.m. mr. ball. : ? mr. fritz. : . mr. ball. : a.m.? mr. fritz. yes, sir. mr. ball. who was present at this time? still--look at your notes there. mr. fritz. i show here jim bookhout, forrest sorrels, special agent in charge of secret service. robert nash, who is u.s. marshal there in dallas, and an officer besides myself. mr. ball. what officer beside yourself? mr. fritz. i have that in here. mr. ball. tell me what you talked about this morning on the d? you called him down there for a certain purpose, didn't you? mr. fritz. let's see if this is the morning of the th, is it--is this the d or th? mr. ball. this is saturday morning, the d. mr. fritz. saturday morning. mr. ball. you learned certain things from your investigation of the day before, hadn't you? mr. fritz. yes, sir. mr. ball. one of them was you found he had a transfer, didn't you, in his pocket when he was arrested? mr. fritz. yes, sir; i sure talked to him about the transfers. mr. ball. all right. what did he say? mr. fritz. he admitted the transfer. mr. ball. i don't want you to say he admitted the transfer. i want you to tell me what he said about the transfer. mr. fritz. he told me that was the transfer the busdriver had given him when he caught the bus to go home. but he had told me if you will remember in our previous conversation that he rode the bus or on north beckley and had walked home but in the meantime, sometime had told me about him riding a cab. so, when i asked him about a cab ride if he had ridden in a cab he said yes, he had, he told me wrong about the bus, he had rode a cab. he said the reason he changed, that he rode the bus for a short distance, and the crowd was so heavy and traffic was so bad that he got out and caught a cab, and i asked him some other questions about the cab and i asked him what happened there when he caught the cab and he said there was a lady trying to catch a cab and he told the busdriver, the busdriver told him to tell the lady to catch the cab behind him and he said he rode that cab over near his home, he rode home in a cab. i asked him how much the cabfare was, he said cents. mr. ball. did you ask him if he went directly to his home? mr. fritz. yes, sir; he said he went straight home. mr. ball. didn't you learn from the cabdriver that he hadn't taken him to north beckley? mr. fritz. i knew he had taken him near there but i am telling you what he told me, he told me he had taken him home. mr. ball. did you ask him whether he had gone directly home? mr. fritz. no, sir; i don't think so. mr. ball. then you found out the day before about the wesley frazier package, hadn't you? mr. fritz. yes, sir; i found out about the package from irving. mr. ball. yes. mr. fritz. yes, sir. mr. ball. and also that he usually went home on friday night and this time he went home on thursday night. mr. fritz. i asked him why he had changed nights. mr. ball. yes, sir. mr. fritz. and let me see what he told me about why he had changed. the man i talked to told me he usually went out on weekends, on friday, so i believe he told me, i am not positive why he told me why he went home on this different night but i think he told me because someone else was going to be over there on weekends or something to that effect. i can look right here and see what he told me. mr. ball. all right, look and see. you also asked him that day about the curtain rods, didn't you? mr. fritz. yes, sir. mr. ball. had you asked him about that the night before, do you know or was this the first time you talked to him about it? mr. fritz. i don't think i asked him the night before, i am sure i did not. i am sure i did not ask him the night before. i remember i was pretty hesitant about asking him about them at all because i told you i didn't want to tell him--i didn't want him to tell me about curtain rods until i found out a little more about them. mr. ball. but you asked him about them this morning? mr. fritz. yes, sir. mr. ball. he had told frazier that he had curtain rods in the package? mr. fritz. yes, sir; he denied having curtain rods or any package other than his lunch. mr. ball. didn't you also ask him what he had done when he went home, what, when he went to north beckley? mr. fritz. when he went to beckley? mr. ball. what he did. mr. fritz. what he did when he went on north beckley? mr. ball. after the cab ride, what he had done. mr. fritz. this time he told me a different story about changing the clothing. he told me this time that he had changed his trousers and shirt and i asked him what he did with his dirty clothes and he said, i believe he said, he put them, the dirty clothes, i believe he said he put a shirt in a drawer. mr. ball. and you asked him again, didn't you, what he was doing at the time the president was shot? mr. fritz. yes, sir. mr. ball. what did he say? mr. fritz. well, he told me about the same story about this lunch. mr. ball. he mentioned who he was having lunch with, did he not? mr. fritz. yes, sir; he told me he was having lunch when the president was shot. mr. ball. with whom? mr. fritz. with someone called junior, someone he worked with down there, but he didn't remember the other boy's name. mr. ball. did he tell you what he was eating? mr. fritz. he told me, i believe, that he had, i am doing this from memory, a cheese sandwich, and he also mentioned he had some fruit, i had forgotten about the fruit until i looked at this report. mr. ball. did he say that was in the package he had brought from home? mr. fritz. yes, sir; there was one reason i asked him about what was in the package, we had had a story that had been circulated around the meantime about some chicken bones. i am sure you heard of that, and i wanted to find for sure what he did have in his lunch and he told me about having--he told me they did not have any chicken out there and i also talked with the paines and they told me they didn't have any chicken in the icebox, they did have some cheese. mr. ball. but he said he had had lunch with junior? mr. fritz. yes, sir; and with someone else. mr. ball. did you find out that there was an employee named junior, a man that was nicknamed junior at the texas school book depository? mr. fritz. probably we have it here, some of the officers probably did, we had all these people checked out. i didn't do it myself probably. mr. ball. that same morning, you asked him also about his affiliations, didn't you ask him if he belonged to the communist party? mr. fritz. yes, sir; i asked him if he belonged to the communist party. mr. ball. what did he say? mr. fritz. he said he did not. he said he never had a card. he told me again that he did belong to the fair play for cuba organization, that he was in favor of the castro revolution and i don't remember what else he might have told me. mr. ball. what about the pistol that he had on him when he was arrested, did you question him about that this morning? mr. fritz. that morning? mr. ball. your notes show that you did. mr. fritz. yes, sir; i talked to him about the pistol and asked him where he got it. mr. ball. what did he say? mr. fritz. he told me he had got it about or months before in fort worth but he wouldn't tell me where he got it. when i asked him a little further about that he told me he didn't want to talk any further about the pistol. mr. ball. did the fbi, did any fbi agent question him that morning? mr. fritz. yes, sir; mr. bookhout asked a few questions along, i don't remember just exactly what they asked, but he asked him a few questions. mr. ball. was there any further questioning about an attorney, whether or not he wanted a lawyer and who he wanted? mr. fritz. yes, sir; there probably was because i talked to him about a lawyer a number of times and he said he didn't want the local attorneys, some attorney had been up to see him after one of these questionings, and he said he didn't want him at all. he wanted mr. abt. and he couldn't get him and i told you about the ones there in the american civil liberties union. mr. ball. didn't he tell you at one time he didn't want to answer any questions until he talked to his lawyer? mr. fritz. yes, sir; he told me that two or three times. mr. ball. this morning he told you that, didn't he? mr. fritz. he probably did. mr. ball. look on your notes there on the page d and see whether or not that refreshes your memory? (commission document b.) mr. fritz. g? mr. ball. d. mr. fritz. i told him--you know he had told me he could not use the telephone because he didn't have the money to pay for a call. i told him he could call collect from the jail to call anyone he wanted to, and i believe at that time he probably thanked me for that. but i told him that we allowed all prisoners to do that. mr. ball. did he say he didn't have money enough? mr. fritz. he told me that but as i said i told him he didn't need the money, he could call him collect, and use the jail phone, telephone. mr. ball. what did he say? mr. fritz. that seemed to please him all right, because he evidently did because the next time i saw him he thanked me for letting him use the phone, but i told him it wasn't a favor; everyone could do that. mr. dulles. do you know who he called? mr. fritz. i don't know, i wasn't there. mr. dulles. is there any record? mr. fritz. i don't believe there would be. i think you give him the use of the telephone and they could call when they wanted to. he could have called half a dozen people if he wanted to. mr. dulles. he couldn't make a long distance call, could he? i suppose he could if he called collect. mr. fritz. yes. mr. ball. was mr. kelley of the secret service present at this time, this morning? mr. fritz. he was there most of the time after the d. he wasn't there on the d. mr. ball. this is the morning of the d we are talking about. mr. fritz. yes, sir; he was there, yes, sir. mr. ball. did you ever ask him what he thought of president kennedy or his family? mr. fritz. yes, sir; i asked him what he thought of the president. mr. ball. what did he say? mr. fritz. what he thought about the family--he said he didn't have any particular comment to make about the president. he said he had a nice family, that he admired his family, something to that effect. at one time, i don't have this in my report, but at one time i told him, i said, "you know you have killed the president, and this is a very serious charge." he denied it and said he hadn't killed the president. i said he had been killed. he said people will forget that within a few days and there would be another president. mr. dulles. did he say anything about governor connally? mr. fritz. no, sir; i don't think i questioned him about the governor at that time. i might have asked him at one time. i remember telling him at one time he shot the governor. mr. dulles. will you give us that? mr. fritz. he denied shooting any of them. mr. dulles. did he express any antipathy for or friendship for---- mr. fritz. no, sir; he didn't. he didn't express--during one of mr. hosty's talks with him he had talked to him about governor connally, and about some letters but that information i don't have. that is something mr. hosty will have to tell you about. mr. ball. your notes show at : he went back to the jail and about an hour later at : he was brought back. mr. fritz. yes, sir. mr. ball. in your office for another interview. mr. fritz. yes, sir. mr. ball. in which mr. kelley of the secret service was present? mr. fritz. yes, sir. mr. dulles. are we now on saturday noon? mr. ball. yes, sir; this is noon about : . mr. fritz. yes, sir. mr. ball. in the meantime your officers had brought back from irving some pictures that they found in the garage, hadn't they? mr. fritz. yes, sir. mr. ball. and you had had them blown up, hadn't you? mr. fritz. that is right. mr. ball. what pictures--and you showed oswald a picture at this time? mr. fritz. a picture of him holding a rifle and wearing the pistol. it showed a picture of him holding a rifle and wearing the pistol. i showed him first an enlarged picture. mr. ball. i will show you commission exhibit no. . mr. fritz. that is the picture. mr. ball. that is the picture you showed him? mr. fritz. yes, sir; that is a similar picture, that is a copy of the picture i showed him. mr. ball. you had had your laboratory enlarge the picture that your men had brought back from irving? mr. fritz. yes, sir; he said that wasn't his picture, he said, "i have been through that whole deal with all people in the cameras," he said, "one has taken my picture and that is my face and put a different body on it." he said, i know all about photography, i worked with photography for a long time. that is a picture that someone else has made. i never saw that picture in my life." i said, "wait just a minute, and i will show you one you have seen probably," and i showed him the little one this one was made from and when i showed him the little one he said, "i never have seen that picture, either." he said, "that is a picture that has been reduced from the big one." mr. ball. i show you commission no. , is that the small picture? mr. fritz. the small picture; yes, sir. mr. ball. a picture of the small picture? mr. fritz. a picture of the small picture, i guess this is. mr. ball. there are two pictures on . which one was it? mr. fritz. on the left. mr. ball. the one on the left? mr. fritz. yes, sir; the one holding the two papers. mr. belin. as you face the picture? mr. ball. as you face the picture the one on the left? [exhibit no. -a.] mr. fritz. there is a lot of questioning in our mind about the time of this middle day questioning here. we checked it over and over and we can't be sure about the time and i don't want to go on record as not knowing whether this time is correct because it might not be. mr. ball. you mean : ? mr. fritz. : . mr. ball. but you do know this conversation---- mr. fritz. i do know we talked to him a number of times all along, and these questions and answers are right, but the times may be off. mr. ball. you did show him this picture, a picture of oswald with a rifle and pistol? mr. fritz. i showed him that at one of those interviews, yes, sir. mr. ball. and he denied that that was a picture of him. mr. fritz. that is true; yes, sir; that is right. mr. ball. there was another showup that afternoon at : ? mr. fritz. yes, sir. mr. ball. at which time two cabdrivers, one named scoggins and one named whaley were shown oswald. were you present at that showup? mr. fritz. i don't think so. i will look and see right quickly but i don't think i was. that would have been on the d. mr. ball. yes. mr. fritz. that shows him--m. g. hall--wait a minute, i am in the wrong one, pardon me. showup no. , shows officers v. s. hinkel, walter potts, m. g. hall, c. w. brown, and j. r. leavelle who was with the people handling the showup. mr. ball. your records also show that you were brought--he was brought to your office again at o'clock? mr. fritz. yes, sir. mr. ball. will you look at page b of your notes. (commission document b) was that the time you talked to him about the rifle? mr. fritz. o'clock? mr. ball. yes. mr. fritz. that is when i showed an enlarged picture, yes, sir, that is what i show here, yes, sir. mr. ball. in the meantime you had gone out to neely street, hadn't you, to try to determine whether or not this was the place for the rifle? mr. fritz. no, sir; we didn't find that out until some time later. mr. ball. you didn't? mr. fritz. no, sir; we had heard of the neely street address but we didn't know that that was the place where the picture was taken. but later on, mr. sorrels and some of the secret service men called me and they had found out, i believe from marina, that that is where the picture was made and they called me and asked me to go with them and we made some other pictures out there to show the place. mr. ball. on this evening at o'clock who was present at the questioning? mr. fritz. at the questioning, just a minute. mr. dulles. what is the reference to the marines? mr. ball. marina. mr. dulles. marina, i didn't catch it. mr. ball. who was present at that, do you remember, on o'clock on saturday evening, the d? see page b. mr. fritz. yes, sir; i believe mr. bookhout, inspector kelley, myself, and officers. mr. mccloy. this was an interrogation? mr. fritz. yes. mr. ball. was that the time when he told you, someone superimposed the picture on his face? mr. fritz. yes, sir; that is right. mr. ball. after he had talked to you a while he told you he didn't want to talk to you any more, didn't he? mr. fritz. yes, sir. mr. ball. look on the second page, c, and tell me what happened. give me in your own words what occurred there. mr. fritz. you mean about the picture? mr. ball. tell me in your own words, yes. mr. fritz. yes, sir; at that time he told me that--the first of the page up here is when he told me he didn't want to answer more questions. "i just told you about that but you want to know something else about this other party." mr. ball. you talked to him sometime later. mr. fritz. yes, sir; i showed him this map, showed him a map of the city of dallas that he had, and the map had been brought in from his address on north beckley, and he told me that those markings, they had several markings on this map, one of them was near---- mr. ball. wait a minute, isn't that the next morning? we are talking about saturday night now, you have told us about showing him the enlarged photograph. mr. fritz. i show : the morning of the th. mr. ball. i am talking about the night. mr. fritz. all right. mr. dulles. : at night. mr. ball. : in the evening. mr. fritz. yes, sir. mr. ball. you showed him the photographs? mr. fritz. yes, sir; pictures. mr. ball. and he told you they weren't his? mr. fritz. yes, sir. mr. ball. what did he tell you then? didn't he tell you then he didn't want to answer any more questions? mr. fritz. let's see if he did. mr. ball. yes. mr. fritz. that is the time that he told me about the photography, that he knew all about photography, and then he said, he didn't want to answer any more questions. mr. ball. what time did you put him back in jail? mr. fritz. : p.m. mr. ball. and you didn't see him again that night? mr. fritz. no, sir. mr. ball. now, the next morning you checked him out of jail? mr. fritz. yes, sir; the th we had him down in the morning, yes, sir. mr. ball. who was present that time? mr. fritz. that time here at : in the morning, one of the postal inspectors, mr. holmes, mr. sorrels, mr. bookhout, and i am not sure about mr. sorrels staying in there all the time. he was in there part of the time, and that is the time that i showed him the map, too, that morning with these markings on it. mr. ball. what did he say? mr. fritz. well, he said they didn't mean anything. those markings were places he had gone looking for work. i asked him at that time, too, more about his religious beliefs, and inspector kelley asked him what he thought about religion and he said he didn't think too much of it. i believe he said of the philosophy of religion. so he asked him two or three other questions and he was a little evasive so i asked him if he believed in a deity. he said he didn't care to discuss that with me. mr. ball. what else was said? mr. fritz. i asked him, too, i believe on that same morning, i asked him more about his political beliefs and he told me he didn't belong to any political party and he told me he was a marxist but that he wasn't a marxist-leninist, that he was just a marxist, and that he again told me that he believed in the castro revolution. that is the morning of the transfer. mr. ball. you asked him about the gun again, didn't you? mr. fritz. i asked him about a lot of things that morning, i sure did. mr. ball. tell us about it. mr. fritz. he denied anything about alek hidell, and again about his belief in the fair play for cuba. mr. ball. what about the rifle? mr. fritz. i asked him about the neely street address and he denied that address. he denied having a picture made over there and he even denied living there. i told him he had people who visited him over there and he said they were just wrong about visiting. mr. ball. did you ask him again about the rifle, did you ask him if that was the picture, that that rifle was his? mr. fritz. yes, sir; i am sure i did. mr. ball. look at your notes. mr. fritz. all right, sir. yes, sir; i did. i asked him again if that was his picture holding the rifle and he said it was not. mr. ball. what did he say? mr. fritz. he denied it. he said he didn't have any knowledge of the picture at all. he said someone else had made it, he didn't know a thing about it or the rifle. mr. ball. didn't you also that same morning again ask him if he brought a sack with him to work on the morning the president was killed? mr. fritz. well, i asked him. i believe that morning i might have asked him that. i believe i asked him about the sack. mr. ball. without looking at your notes there let me ask you this. mr. fritz. all right. mr. ball. when you did ask him about the sack, you did ask him about it, a sack at one time bringing a sack to work that morning? mr. fritz. yes; i did. mr. ball. and you asked him the size and shape of the sack, didn't you? mr. fritz. he never admitted bringing the sack. i showed him the size probably in asking him if he brought a sack that size and he denied it. he said he brought his lunch was all he brought. mr. ball. didn't he say when you asked him the size and shape of the sack that he had with him, he said, "i don't recall, it may have been a small sack or a large sack. you don't always find one that fits your sandwiches," something like that. mr. fritz. that might be true but he said it was a small sack. he said it was a lunch sack. mr. ball. didn't you ask him where he usually kept his sacks, how he carried it when he came to work in the car? mr. fritz. i asked him where he had the sack--his lunch, and he said he had it in the front seat with him. mr. ball. did you ask him if he put any sack in the back seat? mr. fritz. he said he did not. mr. ball. did you tell him that frazier had told you that he had had a long parcel and placed it in the back seat? mr. fritz. i am not sure about saying frazier, i am looking at this note to see if i did. mr. ball. the driver of the car---- mr. fritz. i remember telling him that someone told me that and i might have told him that two people saw him because not only frazier but frazier's sister saw that package, you know, and i did question him about that. mr. ball. did he say anything like this? "he might be mistaken or perhaps thinking about some other time when he picked me up." mr. fritz. that is probably right. mr. ball. do you remember that? mr. fritz. i don't remember it this time but if it is in that note that is probably right. mr. ball. on the curtain rods story, do you remember whether you ever asked him if he told frazier that he had curtain rods in the package? mr. fritz. if i asked him what, please, sir? mr. ball. did you ever ask oswald whether or not he had told frazier that he had curtain rods in the package? mr. fritz. i am sure i did but i can't remember that right now. but i am sure i asked him that because i must have asked him that because i asked him a lot of questions, i asked him if he was fixing his house, i remember asking about that, and he said he was not. mr. ball. he said he was what? mr. fritz. he was not. mr. ball. he said he was not fixing it? mr. fritz. yes. mr. ball. do you know what he said in reply to your question? mr. fritz. no, sir; i don't remember what he said about that. mr. ball. was he questioned about post office boxes that morning? mr. fritz. yes, sir; i did, i asked him about those post office boxes, because the postal inspector had told us about those boxes, and mr. holmes did most of the talking to him about the boxes, and he knew about the boxes and where they were, and he said he had, and i asked him too if he had ordered a rifle to be shipped to one of those boxes, and he said he had not, to one of those box numbers. mr. ball. did you ask him why he had the boxes? mr. fritz. he told me that he had, one of the boxes, if i remember correctly, he never admitted owning at all. the other box he told me he got his, he kept to get his mail, that he said he got some papers from russia and correspondence with people from russia and he used that box for his mail. mr. ball. how long did you talk to him this morning of november ? mr. fritz. morning, well, let's see, i am not sure what time we started talking to him. mr. ball. : . mr. fritz. : , we talked to him then until about--i have the exact time here. mr. ball. can we cut it shorter, your records show : in your office. mr. fritz. here it is, : . mr. ball. is that right? mr. fritz. yes, sir. mr. ball. first of all, i am going to go through some generally without identifying the particular place but just the subject matter. in an interview with him you did ask him about the pistol, didn't you? mr. fritz. which pistol, the one he shot tippit with? mr. ball. the one he had with him when he was arrested. mr. fritz. yes, sir; i asked him about it, yes, i did. mr. ball. you asked him when he got it and where he got it? mr. fritz. he said he bought it in fort worth about or months ago. mr. ball. how long ago? mr. fritz. or months. mr. ball. did he tell you where in fort worth? mr. fritz. no, sir; he wouldn't tell me. mr. ball. did you ask him? mr. fritz. yes, sir; i asked him. mr. ball. what did he say? mr. fritz. he just wouldn't tell me. mr. ball. did you ask him why he had five live . caliber bullets in his shirt? mr. fritz. yes; in his pocket? mr. ball. yes. mr. fritz. no; i didn't ask him that. mr. ball. you didn't ask him that? mr. fritz. no. mr. ball. now you did ask him about the photograph, his photograph, the photograph that was found in his garage? mr. fritz. that is right. mr. ball. that shows him with a rifle and pistol? mr. fritz. yes. mr. ball. what did he say? mr. fritz. he said it was not his picture at all. mr. ball. you did ask him if he had purchased a rifle from klein's store in chicago, ill., didn't you? mr. fritz. yes; i did. mr. ball. what did he say? mr. fritz. he said he did not. mr. ball. you did ask him how he explained the photograph, didn't you? mr. fritz. how he explained the photograph? mr. ball. yes. mr. fritz. i asked him about the photograph and he said someone else took it. it wasn't his picture at all. he said someone in the hall had taken his picture and made that photograph. mr. ball. in other words, he said the face was his face but the picture was made by somebody superimposing his face? mr. fritz. that is right; yes. mr. ball. he denied ever having lived on neely street, did he? mr. fritz. yes, sir; he did. mr. ball. and you asked him also if he had ever owned a rifle? mr. fritz. yes, sir. mr. ball. what did he say? mr. fritz. he said he had not. he said a long time ago he owned a small rifle. mr. ball. what size did he say? mr. fritz. he didn't say. he said small rifle. mr. ball. did you ask him if he kept a rifle in mrs. paine's garage at irving, tex.? mr. fritz. yes, sir; and i asked him if he brought it from new orleans and he said no. mr. ball. did you ask him where he kept, if he did keep a rifle in a blanket? mr. fritz. i asked him if he kept it in a blanket and he said no. mr. ball. didn't you tell him someone told you he had kept it there? mr. fritz. someone told me he had a rifle and wrapped in a blanket and kept it in the garage and he said he didn't. it wasn't true. mr. ball. did he at any time tell you when you asked him if he owned a rifle, did he say, "how could i afford to order a rifle on my salary of a dollar and a quarter an hour," something like that? mr. fritz. i don't remember that. mr. ball. you asked him whether or not he shot president kennedy, didn't you? mr. fritz. yes, sir. mr. ball. what did he say? mr. fritz. he said he did not. mr. ball. and you asked him if he shot governor connally? mr. fritz. yes, sir; he said he didn't do that, he said he didn't shoot tippit. mr. ball. with reference to where he was at the time the president was shot, did he tell you what floor of the building he was on? mr. fritz. i feel sure that he told me he was on the second floor. mr. ball. look at b. mr. fritz. all right, sir. mr. ball. the second paragraph down, b. mr. fritz. yes, sir; second floor; yes, sir. he said he usually worked on the first floor. i asked him what part of the building at the time the president was shot. he said he was having lunch at about this time on the first floor. mr. ball. in his first interview you say that hosty asked him if he had been to mexico. mr. fritz. yes; he did. mr. ball. he denied it. did he say he had been at tijuana once? mr. fritz. i don't remember him saying he had been at tijuana. mr. ball. what did you remember him saying? mr. fritz. i remember him saying he had been to russia, told me he had been to russia, and was over there for some time, and he told hosty that he had a record of that, knew he had been there, told him a number of things so far as that is concerned. mr. ball. what did he say about mexico? mr. fritz. mexico, i don't remember him admitting that he had been to any part of mexico. mr. ball. what do you remember him saying? mr. fritz. i remember he said he did not go to mexico city and i don't remember him saying he ever went to tijuana. mr. ball. in your report at e you have made a statement there of the conditions under which this interrogation proceeded, haven't you? mr. fritz. yes; i did. mr. ball. will you tell us about that. you can describe it either as you state it here in your own words, but tell us what your difficulties were? mr. fritz. i can tell you in just a minute. my office is small as you know, it is a small office, it doesn't have too much room to begin with. with all the outer office full of officers who all wanted to help and we were glad to have their assistance and help, and we appreciate it, but in the hallway we had some news reporters and cameramen with big cameras and little cameras and cables running on the floors to where we could hardly get in and out of the office. in fact, we had to get two police officers assigned to the front door to keep them out of the office so we could work. my office is badly arranged for a thing of this kind. we never had anything like this before, of course. i don't have a back door and i don't have a door to the jail elevator without having to go through that hall for feet, and each time we went through that hallway to and from the jail we had to pull him through all those people, and they, of course, would holler at him and say things to him, and some of them were bad things, and some were things that seemed to please him and some seemed to aggravate him, and i don't think that helped at all in questioning him. i think that all of that had a tendency to keep him upset. mr. ball. what about the interview itself? mr. fritz. now the interview itself inside, of course, we did have a lot of people in the office there to be interviewing a man. it is much better, and you can keep a man's attention and his thoughts on what you are talking to him about better i think if there are not more than two or three people. but in a case of this nature as bad as this case was, we certainly couldn't tell the secret service and the fbi we didn't want them to work on it because they would have the same interest we would have, they would want to do anything they could do, so we, of course, invited them in too but it did make a pretty big crowd. mr. ball. did you have any tape recorder? mr. fritz. no, sir; i don't have a tape recorder. we need one, if we had one at this time we could have handled these conversations far better. mr. ball. the dallas police department doesn't have one? mr. fritz. no, sir; i have requested one several times but so far they haven't gotten me one. mr. ball. and you had quite a few interruptions, too, during the questioning, didn't you? mr. fritz. yes, sir; we had quite a lot of interruptions. i wish we had had--under the circumstances, i don't think there is much that could have been done because i saw it as it was there and i don't think there was a lot that could have been done other than move that crowd out of there, but i think it would have been more apt to get a confession out of it or get more true facts from him if i could have got him to sit down and quietly talked with him. mr. ball. while he was in your custody up to this time at : , when he left your office what precautions did you take for his safety in custody? mr. fritz. in custody. we took all kinds of precautions to keep him, anyone from hurting him. we had an officer go with the jailer and back and we did everything we thought we could do. as i told you a while ago we even put officers on the stage with him and when we couldn't do that put officers at the end of the stage with him so they could get quickly to him if anybody tried to hurt him or molest him. mr. ball. in your office you always had officers with him? mr. fritz. always, right near him. mr. ball. when you went down this crowded hallway, how did you protect him? mr. fritz. there were officers went with him each time. mr. ball. how many? mr. fritz. from three to six. mr. ball. and in the jail, what did you do? mr. fritz. in the jail, i don't know. i didn't handle the jail. mr. ball. you didn't handle the jail? mr. fritz. no, sir; i don't handle the jail. i am sure though they used more than average precautions up there. mr. ball. when you left at : , what was your purpose in leaving at : ? mr. fritz. to transfer him to the--you are talking about the th? mr. ball. on the th, yes. mr. fritz. to transfer him to the county jail. mr. ball. had you been requested by sheriff decker to transfer him there before? mr. fritz. no, sir. i had talked to the chief about transferring him down there. the chief had called me on the d, on the d, i can't give you the exact minute, probably a little after noon, he had called me and asked me when we would be ready to transfer him and i told him we were still questioning him. we didn't want to transfer him yet. he said, "can he be ready by about o'clock? can he be transferred by o'clock?" i told him i didn't think we could. mr. ball. that would be saturday afternoon? mr. fritz. that would be the d, would be saturday, yes, sir. then he asked me could he be ready by o'clock in the morning, so i could tell these people something definitely, and i felt sure we would be ready by then. however, we didn't, we ran overtime as you can see by this report, an hour and a half over, when they come over to transfer him. mr. ball. why did you say you would not be ready by o'clock on saturday? mr. fritz. we wanted to ask him some more questions, to get more information. mr. ball. did you consider transferring him at night? mr. fritz. at night? mr. ball. yes. mr. fritz. during the night on saturday night, i had a call at my home from uniformed captain, captain frazier, i believe is his name, he called me out at home and told me they had had some threats and he had to transfer oswald. and i said, well, i don't know. i said there has been no security setup, and the chief having something to do with this transfer and you had better call him, because--so he told me he would. mr. ball. did you think---- mr. fritz. he called me back then in a few minutes and he told me he couldn't get the chief and told me to leave him where he was. i don't think that transferring him at night would have been any safer than transferring, may i say this? mr. ball. yes. mr. fritz. any safer than transferring him during the day. i have always felt that that was ruby who made that call, i may be wrong, but he was out late that night and i have always felt he might have made that call, if two or three of those officers had started out with him they may have had the same trouble they had the next morning. i don't know whether we had been transferring him ourselves, i don't know that we would have used this same method but we certainly would have used security of some kind. mr. ball. now weren't you transferring him? mr. fritz. sir, yes, sir. mr. ball. what do you mean if we were transferring him ourselves? mr. fritz. i mean transferring like i was told to transfer him. mr. ball. i beg your pardon? mr. fritz. i was transferring him like the chief told me to transfer him. mr. ball. how would you have transferred him? mr. fritz. i did do one thing here, i should tell you about. when the chief came back and asked me if i was ready to transfer him, i told him i had already complained to the chief about the big cameras set up in the jail office and i was afraid we couldn't get out of the jail with him with all those cameras and all those people in the jail office. so when the chief came back he asked if we were ready to transfer and i said, "we are ready if the security is ready," and he said, "it is all set up." he said, "the people are across the street, and the newsmen are all well back in the garage," and he said "it is all set." and at that time he told me, he said, "we have got the money wagon up there to transfer him in," and i said, "well, i don't like the idea, chief, of transferring him in a money wagon." we, of course, didn't know the driver, nor who he was, nor anything about the money wagon, and he said, "well, that is all right. transfer him in your car like you want to, and we will use the money wagon for a decoy, and i will have a squad to lead it up to the central expressway and across to the left on elm street and the money wagon can turn down elm street and you can turn down main street, when you get to main street, going to the county jail," and he told me he and chief stevenson would meet me at the county jail, that is when we started out. mr. ball. how would you have done it if you were going to do it? mr. fritz. well, i hesitate to say because it didn't work good this way. if i had done it like i would do it or usually do it or something and it hadn't worked i would be just in the same shape you know, and it would be just as bad, so i don't like to be critical of something because it turned out real bad. you can kind of understand my--i know that our chief didn't know anything was going to happen or he surely wouldn't have told me to transfer it that way. mr. ball. how would you have done it? mr. fritz. well, we transferred ruby the next day at about the same time, and i had two of the officers from my office to pick me up away from the office. we drove by the county jail, saw that the driveway was open. we had about the same threats on him that we did with oswald. we saw that the driveway was open. i went back to the bus station and i called one of my officers upstairs, gave him the names of two other officers, told him to get those two officers and not tell anyone even in the office where they were going, mark ruby transferred temporarily, which means coming to the office or going for some fingerprints or anything, mark him transferred temporarily, bring him down to the jail elevator at the bottom of the jail, put two of them to stay in the jail elevator with him. for the other one to come to the outside door and when he saw our car flush with the door, bring that man right through those cameras and put him in the back seat, and they did, they shot him right through those people and they didn't even get pictures and we had him lie down on the back seat and two officers lean back over him and we drove him straight up that same street, turned to the left down main street, ran him into the jail entrance, didn't even tell the jailer we were coming and put him in the jail. it worked all right. but now if it hadn't worked, you know, i don't want to be saying that i know more about transferring than someone else, because this could happen to me. i could see if it happened to ruby, i would have had all the blame. mr. ball. now, if on that morning at : you planned to transfer him, didn't you, according to the chief's orders? mr. fritz. yes, sir; i did. mr. ball. and you were through questioning him, weren't you? mr. fritz. sir? mr. ball. you were all through questioning him? mr. fritz. yes, sir; we had everything that we could do at that time. i would have talked to him later in the county jail but we didn't need to hold the man any longer. mr. ball. had he been handcuffed? mr. fritz. yes, sir; and i told--he was already handcuffed, and i told one of the officers to handcuff his left hand to oswald's right hand, and to keep him right with him. mr. ball. that was leavelle? mr. fritz. leavelle, yes, sir. he first started the other hand on the other side, and i told officer graves to get on the other side and montgomery to follow him, and i would go down and an officer by the name of swain who works across the hall from us came over and offered to help us, he went down the jail elevator and he went out ahead of me and i went out in back of him and i was approaching our car to open the back door to put him in, they were having a terrible time to get the car in through the people--they were crowding all over the car--and i heard the shot and i turned just in time to see the officers push ruby to the pavement. mr. ball. when you came out of the jail door were the lights on? mr. fritz. yes, sir; the lights were on. i don't believe they were on as we came to the door, but they came out immediately as we were coming out of the door, and i asked one of the officers, two of them answered me if everything was secure and they said everything was all right. so we came out. mr. ball. what about the lights? mr. fritz. the lights were almost blinding. mr. ball. did you see the people in the crowd? mr. fritz. i could see the people but i could hardly tell who they were, because of the lights. i have been wearing glasses this year and with glasses those lights don't help you facing a bright light like that, the lights were glaring. mr. ball. how far ahead of ruby were you? mr. fritz. well. i thought they were right behind me almost but i noticed from the picture they were a little further back than i actually thought they were, probably where mr. baker is to this gentleman. i believe maybe a little bit farther than that, maybe about---- mr. ball. how far behind oswald were you, how far behind oswald. oswald was behind you? mr. fritz. behind me. mr. ball. how many feet would you say? mr. fritz. in feet i would say probably feet. mr. ball. did you ever know of jack ruby? mr. fritz. no, sir; i never did know him. i never knew him at all. some of the officers knew him. but i never knew him. mr. ball. were there any flashbulbs or were they just steady beams of light? mr. fritz. i didn't see any flashing lights. these were steady blinding lights that i saw. that i couldn't see, you might say. mr. dulles. these were television cameras? (discussion off the record.) mr. ball. did you hear of warren reynolds? mr. fritz. warren reynolds? mr. ball. who was shot sometime afterwards? mr. fritz. used car lot man? mr. ball. used car lot? mr. fritz. yes, sir; i talked to him. he was shot through the head. mr. ball. yes. mr. fritz. i didn't talk to him very long because i didn't have to talk to him long or i didn't have to talk to him very long but he told me two or three different stories and i could tell he was a sick man and he had no doubt brain damage from that bullet and he is apt to say anything. mr. ball. what did he say? mr. fritz. he told me that--he told me two or three stories, one story he told me when they first brought him into me, for me to talk to him, he told me that he saw this ruby coming down there and he told him--he said he followed him up and saw which way he went. mr. ball. ruby? mr. fritz. saw oswald. mr. ball. oswald? mr. fritz. yes, oswald, and i questioned him further and i asked him, how far, how close was the closest you were ever to him, how far were you from him? he said, well, from that car lot across the street there. well, of course, if he had been at a car lot across the street it would be difficult to follow him on the sidewalk. it would be quite difficult so i talked to him for just a short time and i didn't bother with him any more. i already had some history on him because the other bureau, the forgery bureau had been handling him and they had already told me a lot about him. they discounted anything that he told. mr. ball. did you find out who shot him and why he was shot? mr. fritz. this man on the car lot? mr. ball. yes. mr. fritz. they think it might have been over a car deal but they are not positive and i don't know that he will ever tell them. mr. ball. have you ever discovered any connection between the shooting of warren reynolds and the killing? mr. fritz. never. mr. ball. the assassination of the president? mr. fritz. none at all. mr. ball. the killing of tippit? mr. fritz. no; we found nothing. we checked it. mr. ball. any connection between oswald and warren reynolds or ruby and warren reynolds? mr. fritz. we found no connection. we had all kinds of rumors, of course, that they were connected, and we didn't find anything. mr. ball. did you investigate it? mr. fritz. yes, sir; i had some officers investigate it, and the forgery bureau investigated him because they were already working on the shooting case. they handled all the shootings where people are not killed. mr. ball. i see. had you originally planned to be in the motorcade, had you been ordered to be? mr. fritz. at first? mr. ball. yes, sir. mr. fritz. i had been; yes, sir. mr. ball. then it was changed, what day? mr. fritz. ten o'clock the night before the parade, i got a call at home telling me that my assignment had been changed and told me to go to the speaker's tent. mr. ball. who called you? mr. fritz. chief stevenson. mr. ball. do you think that made any difference? mr. fritz. i don't know. i wouldn't want to say because it is like telling about those transfers, where we would have been in that parade we would have been pretty close under that window we might have had a man shot or have good luck or bad luck. mr. dulles. i didn't quite get you where were you to be in the motorcade if you had been? mr. fritz. right behind the vice president's car. mr. dulles. behind the vice president's car? mr. fritz. yes, sir. mr. dulles. had there been a plan for a car in front of the president's car? mr. fritz. i don't know, i didn't make the arrangements for the parade. that was only--those were the only instructions i had--was that one assignment. mr. ball. did you--do you feel any resentment toward the secret service or the fbi men because they were in your office? mr. fritz. oh, no, no, because i work with them all the time. mr. ball. you do? mr. fritz. mr. bookhout is in my office with the fbi. my books are all on the outside and they check my books as often as i do. mr. ball. well, do you think you could have done a better job perhaps if there hadn't been some investigators? mr. fritz. i don't know, that would be kind of a bad question. mr. ball. i mean questioning oswald. mr. fritz. maybe they would have done better if i hadn't been there. mr. dulles. how was the cooperation, was it pretty good between the secret service and the fbi? mr. fritz. we got along fine with the secret service and fbi a hundred percent. mr. mccloy. captain fritz, did you have charge of the attempted shooting of general walker? mr. fritz. no; that wasn't homicide, it would be handled by captain jones, it would have been the other bureau. mr. mccloy. captain jones. have we examined captain jones? mr. hubert. a deposition has been taken. mr. dulles. you had nothing to do with the investigation of the walker case? mr. fritz. not at all. that happened to be captain jones and lieutenant cunningham. mr. dulles. did that case come up at all in any of your interrogations of oswald? did you ever ask him whether he was involved or anything of that sort? mr. fritz. i don't think that i ever asked him about that. if i did, i don't remember it. i don't remember asking about that, asking him about that at all. we had a little information on it but i didn't want to mix it up in that other case and i didn't want to mix it up. mr. mccloy. i would like to go back some distance. when you first went into the building there. mr. fritz. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. and as of your knowledge, when did the first broadcast go out of a description of oswald, according to what information you had on the subject? mr. fritz. i wouldn't have that because i hadn't heard a broadcast of a description when i went into the building. so if one went out it probably was after i went in. mr. mccloy. when mr. truly told you that one of his men was missing? mr. fritz. yes, sir; then he gave me a description of him. mr. mccloy. and he gave you a description at that time? mr. fritz. yes; home address. mr. mccloy. that was his home address and also a description? mr. fritz. his home address and a description, what he looked like, his age, and so forth. mr. mccloy. now that description, to whom was that description given? mr. fritz. well, i never did give it any anyone because when i got to the office he was there. mr. mccloy. he was there when you got to the office? mr. fritz. yes. mr. mccloy. i understand---- mr. fritz. i think i could help you a minute about that description that went out over the radio but i didn't hear it. when i got to the building, some officer there told me, said we think the man who did the shooting out of the window is a tall, white man, that is all i had. that didn't mean much you know because you can't tell five or six floors up whether a man is tall or short. mr. mccloy. did you question the colored men that were on the fifth floor? mr. fritz. i talked to part of them. most of them were questioned by the other officers, investigating officers i had assigned there; yes, sir. i talked to very few of them. i did do this. i did assign an officer to take affidavits from all of those people. mr. mccloy. were you present at the showup at which brennan was the witness? mr. fritz. brennan? mr. mccloy. brennan was the alleged---- mr. fritz. is that the man that the secret service brought over there, mr. sorrels brought over? mr. mccloy. i don't know whether mr. sorrels---- mr. fritz. i don't think i was present but i will tell you what, i helped mr. sorrels find the time that that man--we didn't show that he was shown at all on our records, but mr. sorrels called me and said he did show him and he wanted me to give him the time of the showup. i asked him to find out from his officers who were with mr. brennan the names of the people that we had there, and he gave me those two davis sisters, and he said, when he told me that, of course, i could tell what showup it was and then i gave him the time. mr. mccloy. but you were not present to the best of your recollection when brennan was in the showup? mr. fritz. i don't believe i was there, i doubt it. mr. mccloy. did you ever inspect these premises on neely street? mr. fritz. yes, sir; i did. with the secret service. we went over there and we searched that apartment thoroughly. it was vacant. the man came over that owned it, opened the house for us, we searched it thoroughly and went through the yard and made some pictures in the backyard exactly like that with another man, of course, holding the papers. mr. mccloy. are the pictures in the record? mr. fritz. yes, sir; we have them in the record, the ones we made over there. i suppose you have them here. mr. mccloy. do we have the pictures? mr. ball. i don't believe we have any pictures that you made. mr. fritz. of the one we made over in the backyard. mr. mccloy. i think it is important we get those because of the charge this picture was doctored. have a picture of the premises which these pictures were taken. mr. ball. maybe lieutenant day has them. mr. fritz. no, sir; those pictures were made with--we have them, i am sure of that, our men made the pictures. i believe we have them right here. maybe we didn't bring them, but we have them. mr. ball. could you send them to us? mr. fritz. yes; lieutenant day may have some with him. his men have them. mr. ball. maybe lieutenant day has them. i have a few questions here. you mentioned that hosty, the first day he was there you said that he said he knows these people. did he tell you that he knew oswald? mr. fritz. well, i will tell you, he wasn't talking to me really. mr. ball. what did he say to oswald? mr. fritz. that was the agent--what did hosty say to oswald? mr. ball. yes. mr. fritz. or what did---- mr. ball. did hosty say? mr. fritz. i thought you meant what about shanklin said to hosty. mr. ball. did hosty say to you that he knew oswald? mr. fritz. i heard mr. shanklin tell mr. hosty on the telephone. i had mr. bookhout pick up the telephone and i had an extension. mr. ball. what did he hear? mr. fritz. he said is hosty in that investigation, bookhout said no. he said, "i want him in that investigation right now because he knows those people he has been talking to," and he said some other things that i don't want to repeat, about what to do if he didn't do it right quick. so i didn't tell them that i even knew what mr. shanklin said. i walked out there and called them in. mr. ball. was oswald handcuffed at all times during the interrogation? mr. fritz. i believe he was; yes, sir, i believe we kept him handcuffed at all times. the first time we brought him in he was handcuffed with his hands behind him and he was uncomfortable and i had the officers change them and put his hands up front. mr. ball. was he fed any time during that day? mr. fritz. yes, sir; he was. i don't remember buying him something to eat. i usually do, if they are hard up in jail at the time i buy something to eat but some of the other officers remember me buying him food but the only thing he would drink was i believe some milk and ate a little package of those crackers sandwiches and one of the other officers bought him a cup of coffee and that is all he would either eat or drink, that is all he wanted. mr. ball. now he talked to his wife and---- mr. fritz. and his mother. mr. ball. and his brother, robert? mr. fritz. yes, sir; i am pretty sure he did. mr. ball. where did he talk to them? mr. fritz. i believe that would be up in the jail. he didn't want them in my office. mr. ball. do you have that jail---- mr. fritz. wait just one second. no, sir; that was in the jail. mr. ball. is the jail wired so that you can listen to conversations? mr. fritz. no, sir; it isn't. sometimes i wish i could hear some of the things they say but we don't. mr. ball. in other words, you don't monitor conversations? mr. fritz. no, sir; we let them talk to anyone they want to. if they are allowed to use the telephone, of course, they are allowed free use of it. sometimes they do a little better than that. sometimes they place a long distance call and charge it to the city. mr. mccloy. when you went in, captain fritz, and you saw the site which oswald is alleged to have fired the shot from---- mr. fritz. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. did you see any signs of a lunch there, a chicken there? mr. fritz. no, sir; i will tell you where that story about the chicken comes from. at the other window above there, where people in days past, you know had eaten their lunches, they left chicken bones and pieces of bread, all kinds of things up and down there. that isn't where he was at all. he was in a different window, so i don't think those things have anything to do with it. someone wrote a story about it in the papers, and we have got all kinds of bad publicity from it and they wrote in telling us how to check those chicken bones and how to get them from the stomach and everything. mr. dulles. what was oswald's attitude toward the police and police authority? mr. fritz. you know i didn't have trouble with him. if we would just talk to him quietly like we are talking right now, we talked all right until i asked him a question that meant something, every time i asked him a question that meant something, that would produce evidence he immediately told me he wouldn't tell me about it and he seemed to anticipate what i was going to ask. in fact, he got so good at it one time, i asked him if he had had any training, if he hadn't been questioned before. mr. dulles. questioned before? mr. fritz. questioned before, and he said that he had, he said yes, the fbi questioned him when he came back from russia from a long time and they tried different methods. he said they tried the buddy boy method and thorough method, and let me see some other method he told me and he said, "i understand that." mr. dulles. did you ask him whether he had had any communist training or indoctrination or anything of that kind? mr. fritz. i asked him some questions about that and i asked him where he was in russia. he told me he was in russia, first i believe he told me, first i believe he said in moscow, and then he said he went to minsk, russia, and i asked him what did you do, get some training, go to school? i suspected he had some training in sabotage from the way he talked and acted, and he said "no, i worked in a radio factory." he acted like a person who was prepared for what he was doing. mr. dulles. have you any views of your own as to motive from your talks with him? did you get any clues as to possible motive in assassinating the president? mr. fritz. i can only tell you what little i know now. i am sure that we have people in washington here that can tell far more than i can. mr. dulles. well, you saw the man and the others didn't see the man. mr. fritz. i got the impression, i got the impression that he was doing it because of his feeling about the castro revolution, and i think that he felt, he had a lot of feeling about that revolution. (at this point the chief justice entered the hearing room.) mr. fritz. i think that was the reason. i noticed another thing. i noticed a little before when walker was shot, he had come out with some statements about castro and about cuba and a lot of things and if you will remember the president had some stories a few weeks before his death about cuba and about castro and some things, and i wondered if that didn't have some bearing. i have no way of knowing that other than just watching him and talking to him. i think it was his feeling about his belief in being a marxist, i think he had--he told me he had debated in new orleans, and that he tried to get converts to this fair play for cuba organization, so i think that was his motive. i think he was doing it because of that. mr. dulles. did he express any animosity against anyone, the president or the governor or walker or anybody? mr. fritz. no, sir; he did not. not with me he didn't. mr. dulles. not with you? mr. fritz. no, sir. he just, the fact he just didn't talk about them much. he just didn't say hardly anything. when i asked him he didn't say much about them. mr. mccloy. you knew officer tippit? mr. fritz. i wanted to tell you one thing before i forget. one time i asked him something about whether or not, either i asked him or someone else in there asked him, if he thought he would be better off, if he thought the country would be better off with the president killed and he said, "well, i think that the vice president has about the same views as the president has." he says he will probably do about the same thing that president kennedy will do. mr. dulles. oswald said that to you? mr. fritz. either to me or someone, it could be one of the other officers who asked that question while they were talking about him. mr. mccloy. of course, you knew officer tippit? mr. fritz. i didn't know him. i didn't know him. no, sir. mr. mccloy. he didn't work directly under you? mr. fritz. i looked at his record and saw that the chief of the personnel file and i looked at the personnel file and i talked to a number of officers who did know him and they speak very highly. mr. dulles. have you ever reviewed his record since these events? mr. fritz. i didn't exactly review it but i read a good part of it and the chief read a good part of it to me. mr. dulles. the record is good? mr. fritz. the record is good. it was average, it looked better than a lot of them do. it is all right. it had the same little things that happen to most officers, maybe some little complaint about something minor, nothing of any consequence. mr. mccloy. so far as you know he had no connection with ruby? mr. fritz. i am sure he did not. i think i know what you people have probably heard. we hear all kinds of rumors down our way and i am not trying to volunteer a lot of things here. i know you have a lot of business to do, have you heard something about some connection between oswald and ruby and tippit, and some fourth person. i heard some story, we didn't find any ground for it at all. we didn't find any connection of any kind that would connect them together. i can't even find a connection between ruby and oswald and i can't place them in the same building at the same time nor place them in the same building together, ymca, one of them lived there and one of them was taking some kind of an athletic course there. mr. mccloy. but not at the same time? mr. fritz. well, i can't place them there at the same time; no, sir. mr. dulles. have you discovered any connection between any of your officers and ruby? mr. fritz. well, i think a lot of the officers knew ruby. i think about two or three officers in my office knew him, and i think practically all of the special service officers who handle the vice and the clubs and the liquor violations, i think nearly all of them knew him and, of course, the officer knew him who had arrested him carrying pistols a time or two, two or three times, uniformed officer mostly. he seemed to be well known. it seems a lot of people in town knew him. but i never was in his place and i didn't know him. twenty years ago i might have been in his place. mr. ball. captain fritz, from being with oswald for a couple of days what were your impressions about him? was he afraid, scared? mr. fritz. was he afraid? mr. ball. yes. mr. fritz. no, sir; i don't believe he was afraid at all. i think he was a person who had his mind made up what to do and i think he was like a person just dedicated to a cause. and i think he was above average for intelligence. i know a lot of people call him a nut all the time but he didn't talk like a nut. he knew exactly when to quit talking. he knew the kind of questions. i could talk to him as long as i wanted to if i just talked about a lot of things that didn't amount to anything. but any time i asked him a question that meant something he answered quick. mr. ball. did you ever hear of a lawyer in chicago that called up and offered to help ruby? mr. fritz. some lawyer from chicago sent him a wire. mr. ball. did you see the wire? mr. fritz. i saw the wire; yes. mr. ball. do you know who the lawyer was? mr. fritz. no, sir; i don't remember his name. i believe he probably had it delivered to the jail. mr. ball. to oswald, a lawyer from chicago offered his services to oswald? mr. fritz. yes; ruby too. but i am talking about the one to oswald. i don't know that i would even know his name if i heard it. mr. ball. we have some pictures here from the crime laboratory as we have marked exhibits , , and . the witness has already identified a picture of oswald. i show you this, captain, can you tell me which one of these pictures on exhibit that you showed to oswald the day when you interrogated him, asked him it that was his picture? mr. fritz. it is the one with the two papers in his hand. mr. ball. the one to the right. did you ever show him the one to the left? mr. fritz. i don't think so. mr. ball. we offer , , and as two pictures taken. mr. fritz. these are the pictures i told about a while ago. mr. ball. they were taken by your crime lab? mr. fritz. our crime lab took these pictures when i went over there with mr. sorrels. mr. ball. where were they taken? mr. fritz. in the backyard of the neely street address. if you will note, you will see in this picture, you notice that top right there of this shed. of course, this picture is taken up closer, but if you step back further you can see about where the height comes to on that shed right there. not exactly in the same position. mr. ball. i offered these. (commission exhibits nos. , , and were admitted.) mr. fritz. it shows the gate. mr. ball. indicating the location of the picture taken--this set will indicate the pictures were all taken at the neely street backyard. mr. dulles. you recall the date of these pictures, in april? mr. fritz. i believe they will be dated on the back of them. mr. dulles. april, so the trees would be about the same. mr. ball. when were the pictures taken by your crime lab? mr. fritz. i am not sure but i believe the date will be on the back of the picture. november , . picture made by officer brown who works in the crime lab. mr. ball. captain, i would like to ask you some more questions about your prisoner. mr. fritz. all right, sir. mr. ball. the first day that you had oswald in custody, did you get a notice from the fbi, any of the fbi officers that there had been a communication from washington suggesting that you take extra precautions for the safety of oswald? mr. fritz. no, sir; there was not. mr. ball. do you recall whether or not on friday---- the chairman. what was your answer to that? mr. fritz. i did not, i got no such instructions. in fact, we couldn't--we would have taken the precautions without the notice but we did not get the notice, i never heard of that. mr. ball. do you recall that on friday, november , wade asked you or did he or didn't district attorney wade ask you to transfer oswald to the county jail for security? mr. fritz. that would be on the night of the d? mr. ball. on the night of the d. mr. fritz. yes, sir; he asked me if i would transfer him that night. mr. ball. what did you tell him? mr. fritz. i told him we didn't want to transfer him yet. we wanted to talk to him some more. we talked a little bit. he didn't actually want him transferred. he just was more or less talking about whether or not we wanted to transfer him. mr. ball. now on saturday decker called you and asked you to transfer him? mr. fritz. on saturday did he call me and ask me to transfer him? mr. ball. yes, that would be the d. mr. fritz. no, sir; he did not. mr. ball. did chief curry tell you that decker had called or anything of that sort? mr. fritz. yes, sir; when i was talking to chief curry on one of those conversations, i don't think it is the conversation now when he told me about the hours, i think it is another conversation, i told him, i said, "i don't know whether we were going to transfer him or decker was going to transfer him," and chief curry said, "we are going to transfer him, i have talked to decker, we are going to transfer him." mr. ball. when were the plans for the transfer made? mr. fritz. when were the plans made? mr. ball. yes; do you know? mr. fritz. i don't know about that. the only thing i know is what i told you about when the chief told me about would he be ready by o'clock that morning, and i told him i thought we could. mr. ball. you didn't make the plans yourself? mr. fritz. no, sir. mr. ball. they were made by the chief? mr. fritz. yes, sir; they were made by the chief. mr. ball. when did the chief first tell you what the plans were? mr. fritz. that was on the d. he didn't tell me about all the plans, of course, at that time because i told you when he came up to tell us about that, when he asked when we were ready to go he told me about the armored car, that is the first i had ever heard of that. mr. ball. did you ever tell any of the press the time that oswald would be moved? mr. fritz. no, sir; i don't believe i did. i was interrogated by a bunch of them as i started to leave the office on the night of the d. as we started to the elevator, a group of us from my office, and some of the fbi officers, we started to the elevator some or reporters came up and said the chief said we were going to transfer him at o'clock the next morning and if we were and i didn't talk to them so i don't think i ever said much if anything to them because i know one of them followed me almost to my parking lot, i know, asking me questions about the transfer. mr. ball. at : when they left your office, do you know whether or not there was any broadcast over your radio as to your movements? mr. fritz. on our radio? mr. ball. yes. mr. fritz. i wouldn't know. mr. ball. or on any radio, were there any radio broadcasters on your floor at that time? mr. fritz. any of those newsmen? mr. ball. newsmen? mr. fritz. oh, yes; they might not have been on the floor but they were all down in the basement. you are talking about the morning of the th? mr. ball. on the morning of the th when you were moving? mr. fritz. any number of them downstairs. i don't remember whether there were any upstairs or not. there probably was maybe a few of them because i don't think there was any time when there wasn't a few of them up there, but we didn't leave through that hall and go through the elevator. we went through the mail elevator. mr. ball. on the d and d, the third floor was full of newspapermen and photographers? mr. fritz. yes, sir; all the time, completely full. mr. ball. had they left the third floor on the th? mr. fritz. a lot of them had; yes, sir. a lot of them had, and were downstairs in the basement. mr. ball. how about the television cameras? mr. fritz. i noticed--television cameras, they were downstairs too. mr. ball. they weren't up on the third floor? mr. fritz. i don't believe--there could have been one or two of them left up there, i don't think many of them were still up there. mr. ball. most of them were downstairs? mr. fritz. most of them were downstairs. i wouldn't say there weren't any up there because i don't think there was any time when there wasn't at least a few of them up there. mr. ball. now, when you went down the jail elevator and you said you got out and went forward to see if everything was secure. what did you mean by that? mr. fritz. well, i meant if everything, it was all right for us to go to our car with him. we didn't want to leave the jail office with him unless everything was all right because as long as we were in the jail office we could put him back in the elevator and if everything wasn't all right, i didn't want to come out with him. mr. ball. and you went ahead, didn't you? mr. fritz. yes, sir; first lieutenant swain and then i went out and then the other officers followed me with the prisoner. mr. ball. was the car there you were going to get in? mr. fritz. yes, sir. mr. ball. had you reached the car yet? mr. fritz. i was just in the act of reaching for the door to open the back door, i looked at that picture, and it doesn't show the exact distance i was from the car but i couldn't have been any further than reaching distance. mr. ball. when you left, or after ruby shot oswald, he was taken upstairs, wasn't he? mr. fritz. yes, sir; he was. he was first carried into the jail office, you mean ruby? mr. ball. ruby, when ruby shot oswald? mr. fritz. oswald was carried into the jail office and put on the floor there. ruby was brought into the jail office. now i believe that ruby was brought into the jail office after oswald, i believe oswald was already on the floor or behind there because i know the officers had taken ruby upstairs went behind me and i saw them pass behind me with him to the jail. mr. ball. did you talk to ruby? mr. fritz. did i talk to him; no, sir; i talked to him later. mr. mccloy. i wonder if at this time you would want a little recess? mr. fritz. no, sir; i am comfortable. mr. mccloy. i think we kept the chief on a little bit too long this morning. mr. fritz. if it is all right with you. mr. ball. did you talk to ruby at that time? mr. fritz. no, sir; not at that time. mr. ball. later? mr. fritz. i talked to him later, probably an hour later. i guess i have the exact time here if you need it. mr. ball. what did ruby say to you, do you have the exact time? mr. fritz. well, he told me, i told him, i, of course, wanted to know something about premeditation because i was thinking about the trial too and i told him i wanted to ask him some questions and he said, well, he first said, "i don't want to talk to you, i want to talk to my lawyers," and he said, i believe he told me too that he had been advised by a lawyer, and i asked him some other question and he said, "now if you will level with me and you won't make me look like a fool in front of my lawyers i will talk to you." i didn't ask him one way or the other, but i did ask him some questions and he told me that he shot him, told me that he was all torn up about the presidential killing, that he felt terribly sorry for mrs. kennedy. he didn't want to see her to have to come back to dallas for a trial, and a lot of other things like that. mr. ball. did you ask him how he got down to the jail? mr. fritz. yes; i did. mr. ball. what did he say? mr. fritz. he told me he came down that ramp from the outside. so i told him, i said, "no, you couldn't have come down that ramp because there would be an officer at the top and an officer at the bottom and you couldn't come down that ramp." he said, "i am not going to talk to you any more, i am not going to get into trouble," and he never talked to me any more about it. mr. ball. did you ever talk to him again? mr. fritz. i don't think i ever talked to him after that. i talked to him a little while then and i don't believe i ever talked to him after that. i asked him when he first decided to kill oswald, and he didn't tell me that. he told me something else, talked about something else. mr. ball. what was that time, you said you could give us the time? mr. fritz. yes, sir; i can give you the time. : . mr. ball. what time? mr. fritz. : . mr. ball. : in the afternoon? mr. fritz. yes, sir. mr. ball. did you know that archer or dean or newman had talked to ruby? mr. fritz. i didn't know that they had talked to him. i knew that some officers had talked to him but i didn't know who they were. mr. ball. were there any reports given you by any one of these three men, dean---- mr. fritz. they weren't given to me. those reports were given to the investigative team that the chief setup headed by captain jones and some of the inspectors and they gave me a copy. i have copies of it. mr. ball. you have copies of those reports? mr. fritz. yes, sir; i do. mr. ball. do you know, did you know prior to the trial of ruby that either dean or archer or newman, either one, had claimed to have talked to ruby about his premeditation in the killing of oswald? mr. fritz. well, sir, i didn't know, i wouldn't have known that. they never told me about that. i wouldn't have known. i think that maybe the chief had taken some report from dean, but i didn't see that until, i think i put it in this book a few days ago. mr. ball. well now, did you have charge of the investigation of the oswald killing? mr. fritz. yes, sir. mr. ball. you were in charge of that? mr. fritz. yes, sir. mr. ball. then all the reports would come to you? mr. fritz. come here; yes, sir. with one exception. the reports from all those officers in the security in the basement. you see, i had nothing to do with setting up the security in the basement, that was under the security division and the chief might have given that assignment to, those are in a different book, they are in a report made to this investigative team appointed by the chief. we have their copies, too. mr. ball. well, but you had charge of the investigation of the homicide? mr. fritz. the homicide but i didn't have charge of the investigation of the basement incident. mr. ball. well, the reason for my question is that there has been some question raised as to testimony in the ruby trial of these men, dean, archer, and newman. mr. fritz. yes, sir; i heard that. mr. ball. and they have testified to certain statements made that they heard from ruby afterward, and the question is whether or not these men have reported to you that they had heard that. mr. fritz. they didn't report it to me; no, sir. mr. ball. or reported it in writing to their department? mr. fritz. they didn't report it to me, if they reported to anyone i didn't get it. but i understand that dean had made some kind of special report to the chief but that wasn't to me. mr. ball. did you ever know a man named roger craig, a deputy sheriff? mr. fritz. roger craig, i might if i knew which one he was. do we have it here? mr. ball. he was a witness from whom you took a statement in your office or some of your men. mr. fritz. some of my officers. mr. ball. he is a deputy sheriff. mr. fritz. one deputy sheriff who started to talk to me but he was telling me some things that i knew wouldn't help us and i didn't talk to him but someone else took an affidavit from him. his story that he was telling didn't fit with what we knew to be true. mr. ball. roger craig stated that about minutes after the shooting he saw a man, a white man, leave the texas state book depository building, run across a lawn, and get into a white rambler driven by a colored man. mr. fritz. i don't think that is true. mr. ball. i am stating this. you remember the witness now? mr. fritz. i remember the witness; yes, sir. mr. ball. did that man ever come into your office and talk to you in the presence of oswald? mr. fritz. in the presence of oswald? mr. ball. yes. mr. fritz. no, sir; i am sure he did not. i believe that man did come to my office in that little hallway, you know outside my office, and i believe i stepped outside the door and talked to him for a minute and i let someone else take an affidavit from him. we should have that affidavit from him if it would help. mr. ball. now this man states that, has stated, that he came to your office and oswald was in your office, and you asked him to look at oswald and tell you whether or not this was the man he saw, and he says that in your presence he identified oswald as the man that he had seen run across this lawn and get into the white rambler sedan. do you remember that? mr. fritz. i think it was taken, i think it was one of my officers, and i think if he saw him he looked through that glass and saw him from the outside because i am sure of one thing that i didn't bring him in the office with oswald. mr. ball. you are sure you didn't? mr. fritz. i am sure of that. i feel positive of that. i would remember that i am sure. mr. ball. he also says that in that office---- mr. fritz. yes, sir. mr. ball. after he had said, "that is the man," that oswald got up from his chair and slammed his hand on the table and said, "now everybody will know who i am." did that ever occur in your presence? mr. fritz. if it did i never saw anything like that; no, sir. mr. ball. that didn't occur? mr. fritz. no, sir; it didn't. that man is not telling a true story if that is what he said. do you have any--could i ask a question, is it all right if i ask a question? mr. mccloy. all right, go ahead. mr. ball. go ahead. mr. fritz. i was going to ask if we had any affidavits from any of our officers that would back that up? if they did i never heard of it. mr. ball. if you are here tomorrow. mr. fritz. it is something i don't know anything about. mr. ball. if you are here tomorrow i would like to show you the deposition of the man for you to read it. mr. fritz. i am sure i would know that. the only time i saw the man hit the desk was when mr. hosty talked to him and he really got upset about that. mr. dulles. is that in the testimony, have you testified about that? mr. fritz. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. that shows his agitation over the alleged---- mr. fritz. questioning. mr. mccloy. questioning of his wife. mr. fritz. that is right. mr. ball. in the light of your experience in this case, do you think you should alter your regulations with the press, have a little more discipline when the press are around? mr. fritz. we can with the local press. we can't do much with those people that we don't know from those foreign countries, and from distant states, they don't ask us. they just write what they hear of and we read it. mr. ball. no; but i mean in the physical control of your plant there? mr. fritz. there at city hall? mr. ball. do you think you should alter your policy? mr. fritz. we think we can control it normally, because those officers, those people from the press there wouldn't come in and start taking pictures without permission. they wouldn't do that without asking, and then usually i ask a prisoner because some prisoners don't want their pictures taken and sometimes they do, if they want it taken why it is all right. sometimes we don't let them take them at all, depending on circumstances. mr. ball. do you permit television interrogation of your prisoners in jail? mr. fritz. no, sir. mr. ball. or in the---- mr. fritz. in the jail i don't have charge of the jail but i am sure they don't because i haven't heard of that. we don't have it in the office either. mr. mccloy. but---- mr. fritz. i don't think it is a good idea at all because i don't know what that man might say. mr. ball. i agree. mr. mccloy. you would have jurisdiction to keep out foreign correspondents if you wanted to? mr. fritz. keep them out of the office; yes, sir. mr. mccloy. keep them out of the building? mr. fritz. yes, sir; i wouldn't have charge of the building but i can keep them out of my office, up to that door, i can have enough officers i can take care of that fine. out in that building, that is more or less a job for the uniform division. mr. dulles. a job for the uniform division, the police? mr. fritz. a job for the uniform division, they can take charge of it and they have uniforms. mr. dulles. who establishes the policy? mr. fritz. the chief of police establishes the policy. he has assistants, of course. mr. mccloy. you have testified that you were really hampered in your investigation, in your interrogation of oswald by reason of the confusion. mr. fritz. i think so. mr. mccloy. by reason of too many people being around, isn't that right? mr. fritz. i think so, but i am not sure that could have been avoided under these circumstances. mr. mccloy. well, couldn't you---- mr. fritz. i think that---- mr. mccloy. couldn't you have demanded that your office be cleared so that you could have a quiet investigation? mr. fritz. i could hardly tell the secret service and the fbi or any other federal agency--i had the outer office had texas rangers out there, several of them, and you could understand why they would be in there because the governor had been shot and they work directly for the governor out of austin, so you could hardly tell people like that that you don't want them to help. now, if this were just an average case, just an average hijacking case we have, we could easily, we could handle it with all ease but where the president of the united states is killed it would be hard to tell the secret service and the fbi that they couldn't come in. mr. mccloy. but you could have told the newspaper people, the media people that they couldn't come in. mr. fritz. i didn't let them come in my office or in my part of the office. mr. mccloy. they never were in your office when you were examining oswald? mr. fritz. never. i think one of them got inside of the outer office but someone immediately put him out. mr. dulles. what is the jurisdiction of the city manager as compared to the chief of police, does he have authority over the chief of police? mr. fritz. the city manager is our big boss, he is over all of us. he is over the chief of police and he operates the city. he is responsible only to the mayor and city council. and i think that they give him a pretty free hand. we have got a city manager and he tells, he sets the policies, of course, maybe i made a mistake when i told you that the chief of police sets the policies of our police department, but the city manager would set the policies for the city as a whole. mr. ball. i have no further questions. mr. mccloy. do you have anything else that you think that is on your mind that might help us in getting at the rockbottom of either the oswald murder or the president's murder? mr. fritz. i believe that you people know about everything that we know. we have tried to get everything in this book. we have tried not to withhold anything, and i will tell you something about this case that i told some people in the beginning. i don't know of anything about this case that we can't tell all about, the truth about it from start to finish now. i think the truth fits it better than anything we can do to it. i hope i have gotten this story to you correctly. i hope i haven't made some mistakes in some of my testimony about time and the dates and things because if i have---- mr. mccloy. are there any further leads that you would like to follow up or do you feel that the case is from your point of view closed in terms of-- mr. fritz. we won't ever close it. we never close any murder case and we won't ever close it. i will tell you what, if anything came up about this case that we thought we could do to help on it, and it came up years from now we would work on it. we would work on it regardless of what time it came up. i do think this, that there have been a lot of things about this case that we won't be able to handle. if we get any information about anything that involves foreign relations we will pass that on to the people who know what to do with it. we won't try to handle anything like that because we might do a very wrong thing. we would give that to either the fbi or the secret service, depending on the type of information it was, and they would pass it on to wherever they wanted to. mr. mccloy. are there any pending leads in this case that you feel that you would like to follow up beyond? mr. fritz. right now? mr. mccloy. right now. mr. fritz. i don't believe we have one. do you think of any lead to follow up? i can't think of one. if i thought of one we would sure start on it. but i don't think we have. mr. ball. there is one problem here in your records that we asked about. where was oswald between : a.m., and : a.m., on saturday, november , that is right after midnight? mr. fritz. right after midnight. mr. ball. the jailer's records show he was checked out. mr. fritz. i think i know where he was right after midnight. i think he went to the identification bureau to be fingerprinted and have his picture made. mr. ball. you know. you can probably advise him and he can tell us. what is it? mr. fritz. i think that, if it is the time that i am thinking about, if it is the time that after he was, after he had his arraignment, i think from what we found out since then that he went there for picture and fingerprints. mr. ball. i have no further questions. mr. fritz. maybe you should ask lieutenant baker here something that i don't know anything about, that he knows, that might help to clarify that question you asked me just then. i thought he went for the picture, but tell him. testimony of t. l. baker mr. mccloy. lieutenant, will you be sworn, please? raise your right hand. do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. baker. i do. mr. ball. state your name. mr. baker. t. l. baker. mr. ball. what is your occupation? mr. baker. lieutenant, police department, dallas, tex. mr. ball. you are up here with captain fritz? mr. baker. yes, sir. mr. ball. and you are the man who prepared commission document -b; is that correct? mr. baker. i assisted in it, sir. mr. ball. you were sort of the editor, is that right? mr. baker. something like that. mr. ball. the question we addressed to captain fritz was where was oswald between the : and, i believe, : in the evening, : a.m., on saturday, november , that is, right after midnight? mr. baker. yes, sir; at : a.m., lieutenant knight of the i.d. bureau took him out of the jail on the fifth floor and with the assistance of sergeant warren and one of the jailers brought him to the fourth floor where the i.d. bureau was located. mr. mccloy. the i.d. bureau is the identification bureau? mr. baker. yes, sir. there in the presence of sergeant warren and this jailer, one of his assistants, he was processed through the i.d. bureau, which consists of taking his pictures and fingerprints and making up the different circulars that go to the fbi, and so forth. when they had finished processing him, he returned him to the jail. lieutenant knight released him. he was placed back in the jail at : . approximately : sergeant warren received a call from chief curry, advising him to bring him back to the identification bureau the same place, for arraignment. sergeant warren and the same jailer returned him to the i.d. bureau, where he was arraigned by judge johnston at approximately : a.m. this arraignment took approximately minutes, and he was returned to the fifth-floor jail by sergeant warren at approximately : a.m. mr. ball. that is all. mr. mccloy. thank you very much. testimony of j. w. fritz resumed mr. dulles. could i ask just one question? mr. fritz. yes, sir. mr. dulles. had you or your office, to your knowledge, ever heard of oswald prior to november , ? mr. fritz. no, sir; i never heard of him, and i don't believe anyone in my office had ever heard of him, because none of them knew him when we got him. that was our first---- mr. dulles. there are no reports; you found no reports in your files? mr. fritz. no, sir. mr. dulles. about him that antedated november , ? mr. fritz. we had no reports on him at all. mr. mccloy. did you ever hear of a man named weissman? does that mean anything to you, bernard weissman? mr. fritz. the name sounds familiar. i don't know him. i saw that ad that he had in the paper, and had his name signed to it at the bottom. mr. mccloy. but that is all you know about him? mr. fritz. that is all i know about him. mr. mccloy. any other questions? mr. dulles. i have no other questions. mr. mccloy. we are through. we thank you very much for your cooperation, captain. testimony of j. c. day mr. mccloy. do you solemnly swear the testimony you give at this hearing will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. day. i do. mr. belin. state your name for the commission. mr. day. j. c. day. mr. belin. what is your occupation? mr. day. lieutenant, dallas police department assigned to the crime scene search section of the identification bureau. mr. belin. how old are you? mr. day. fifty. mr. belin. how long have you been associated with the dallas police department? mr. day. twenty-three years. mr. belin. did you go to school in texas? mr. day. yes, sir. mr. belin. how far did you get through school? mr. day. through high school. mr. belin. and then what did you do? mr. day. i went to work for a machinery company there in dallas for about years before i went with the city. mr. belin. then you went there directly to the city? mr. day. yes, sir. mr. belin. were you on duty on november , ? mr. day. yes, sir. mr. belin. could you describe your activities from about noon on of that day? mr. day. i was in the identification bureau at the city hall. about a quarter of one i was in the basement of the city hall, which is three floors under me--actually i am on the fourth floor--and a rumor swept through there that the president had been shot. i returned to my office to get on the radio and wait for the developments. shortly before o'clock i received a call from the police dispatcher to go to elm street, dallas. mr. belin. is there any particular building at that particular location? mr. day. the texas school book depository, i believe is the correct name on it. mr. belin. did you go there? mr. day. yes, sir; i went out of my office almost straight up o'clock. i arrived at the location on elm about : . mr. belin. what did you do when you got there? mr. day. i was directed to the sixth floor by the police inspector who was at the front door when i arrived. mr. belin. do you know who that was? mr. day. inspector sawyer. mr. belin. what did you do when you got to the sixth floor? mr. day. i had to go up the stairs. the elevator--we couldn't figure out how to run it. when i got to the head of the stairs, i believe it was the patrolman standing there, i am not sure, stated they had found some hulls over in the northeast corner of the building, and i proceeded to that area--excuse me, southeast corner of the building. mr. belin. now, in your years of work for the dallas police department, have you had occasion to spend a good number of these years in crime-scene matters? mr. day. yes, sir. mr. belin. how long, about? mr. day. the past years i have been--i have had immediate supervision of the crime-scene search section. it is our responsibility to go to the scene of the crime, take photographs, check for fingerprints, collect any other evidence that might be available, and primarily we are to assist the investigators with certain technical parts of the investigation. mr. belin. do you carry any equipment of any kind with you when you go there? mr. day. yes, sir. we have a station wagon equipped with fingerprint equipment, cameras, containers, various other articles that might be needed at the scene of the crime. mr. belin. have you had any special education or training or background insofar as your crime-scene work is concerned? mr. day. in the matter of fingerprints, i have been assigned to the identification bureau years. during that time i have attended schools, the texas department of public safety, on fingerprinting; also an advanced latent-print school conducted in dallas by the federal bureau of investigation. i have also had other schooling with the texas department of public safety and in the local department on crime-scene search and general investigative work. mr. belin. now, i believe you said that you were informed when you got there that they had located some hulls? mr. day. yes, sir. mr. belin. what did you do then? mr. day. i went to the northeast corner--southeast corner of the building, and first made photographs of the three hulls. mr. mccloy. what floor was this? mr. day. on the sixth floor. i took photographs of the three hulls as they were found before they were moved. mr. belin. i am going to hand you some pictures here and ask you to say if these pictures are the photographs you took. first, i will hand you a picture marked "commission exhibit ," and ask you to state, if you know, what this is. mr. day. yes, sir. that is one of the photographs we made of the hulls on the floor. mr. belin. now, who took the actual picture? mr. day. detective studebaker; r. l. studebaker. mr. belin. who is he? mr. day. at my direction. mr. belin. who is he? mr. day. he is one of the officers who took this under my supervision, and he accompanied me from the office to this building. mr. belin. can you see in this picture the location of the hulls? mr. day. yes, sir. mr. belin. i wonder if you could take this pen and circle the hulls that you see there. mr. mccloy. i only see two. mr. day. the other one doesn't show in this picture, i don't believe. mr. belin. you have circled two hulls that appear to be resting near what would be the south wall of the building; is that correct? mr. day. yes, sir. mr. belin. can you see the third hull in that picture? mr. day. i think you can barely see the tip end of it sticking out there. i believe that is it. mr. belin. do you want to circle where you think you can see the third tip sticking out? i am now going to hand you what is marked "commission exhibit no. ," and ask you to state, if you know, what this is. mr. day. this is another view taken from a different angle of the same location. all three hulls are clearly visible here. mr. belin. would you circle the three hulls on exhibit ? do you know whether or not exhibit and exhibit were taken before these hulls were moved? mr. day. they were taken before anything was moved, to the best of my knowledge. i was advised when i got there nothing had been moved. mr. belin. who so advised you? mr. day. i believe it was detective sims standing there, but i could be wrong about that. mr. belin. now, turning again to exhibit , i notice that there is a box in a window which is partially open. i am going to first ask you to state what window this is. mr. day. this is the south window closest to houston street or, in other words, it is the easternmost window on the south side of the building on the sixth floor. mr. belin. was this window in about the same location with respect to how far it was open at the time you got there? mr. day. that is the position it was in when i got there. mr. belin. all right. i notice boxes throughout the picture, including the box in the window. to the best of your knowledge, had any of those boxes been moved prior to the time the picture, exhibit , was taken? mr. day. no, sir; they had not. mr. belin. now, i am going to show you a picture which has been identified previously in commission testimony as commission exhibit , which purports to have been a picture taken by a newspaper photographer shortly after the assassination, showing the easternmost windows on the south side of the fifth and the sixth floor of the texas school book depository building. you will notice there are two negro males looking out of the lower pair of windows, which would be the fifth-floor windows, and above that there is one window which appears to be open with a box or boxes in it. i am going to first ask you to state whether or not the boxes in that picture, exhibit , appear to be in the same location as you saw them when you first got on the crime scene. mr. day. yes, sir; i believe they are. mr. belin. now, as you face the picture, the box to the right, which would be to the east, has a corner sticking out, or just a corner of the box shows. is that the same box that appears to be resting on the window ledge in exhibit ? mr. day. in my opinion, it is. mr. belin. i also note there is another box that appears to be in the window on exhibit . is this box shown at all on either exhibit or , if you know? mr. day. no; i don't think it is. mr. belin. what do you think happened to this other box in the window on exhibit ? mr. day. i think the box you see through the window is to the west of the box you see here. mr. belin. you are pointing out that the box you see in the window, and you are now pointing to exhibit ---- mr. day. i think that is east of the four boxes shown in your no. . well, there are---- mr. belin. let me give you another question. on exhibit there is only one box shown in the window actually resting on the ledge, which is the box that you identified the corner out of in the eastern part of the window shown on . now, what is the fact as to whether or not this other box on would have been resting on the ledge, or is it a pictorial view of something that actually was in back of the window? mr. day. i think this is one of the boxes feet inches back from the wall. there were two stacks of them, one behind the window sill that you see here. mr. belin. you are pointing to the window sill between the pair of windows on exhibit ? mr. day. that you can't see in this picture. this one is the other one i am trying to say, this stack here--there are two stacks of boxes here. this one is behind here. you can't see it. mr. belin. what you are pointing is, as you point to exhibit , you are saying that the tier of boxes which is in the left foreground, if you were standing outside taking a picture, would be hidden by the heavy beam between the windows, but beyond that, to the east of that, there is another tier of boxes of which you think this other box in exhibit is one; am i correct? is this correct? mr. day. that is correct. mr. belin. handing you exhibit , will you see this at all on exhibit ? mr. day. this is the box, i think, showing here. mr. belin. do you want to make an x on the box on exhibit that you think is the other box showing in the window on exhibit ? mr. day. the corner that is showing i don't believe shows in the picture. mr. belin. all right. you put an x on a box which i would say, looking at this picture, appears to be the fourth box starting from the bottom count, and you believe that is the picture or--that is the box that is shown in the window? mr. day. yes, sir. mr. belin. all right. mr. day. i don't know what time this was taken. do you? mr. belin. well, you are asking with regard to exhibit ? we know it was taken, i would say, not more than a minute after the shooting. this is our best recollection based on testimony of the two people in the window below, because this was their position as they saw the shooting, and the photographer himself says that after the shots were fired, he jumped out of the motorcade and took two shots of the building. this could have been the first or the second shot he took. he used two different cameras, so i don't imagine it would have been very long after the actual shots were fired. for the record, i should add one other thing at this point. there is testimony by the deputy sheriff that found the shells, that after he found them he leaned out of the window to call down to try and tell someone that he found something, and it is conceivable that he moved a box, although he did not so testify. in other words, i don't want you to take this as the testimony of anyone---- mr. day. what i am getting at, this box doesn't jibe with my picture of the inside. mr. belin. you are pointing now to the other box on exhibit . you say that does not jibe with the chart that you have here that you brought with you of boxes that you had inside. let me ask you this: when did you prepare your chart of boxes inside? mr. day. this chart here was prepared on the th. however, pictures were made immediately after my arrival. mr. belin. you are talking now about exhibit and exhibit ? mr. day. yes, sir; don't jibe with that box there. mr. belin. what i am asking you then is this: is it possible that the box that is shown on exhibit is not shown on exhibit and exhibit ? by that i mean not the box that you see a corner of, but i am talking about the other box that is clear to the west of the easternmost window. mr. day. i just don't know. i can't explain that box there depicted from the outside as related to the pictures that i took inside. mr. belin. in other words, what you are saying is that on the sixth floor window the westernmost box on exhibit , you cannot then relate to any of the boxes shown on exhibits or ? mr. day. that is correct. mr. belin. do you wish to correct your testimony with regard to the x you placed on the fourth box on the stack in exhibit ? mr. day. yes; that is just not the same box. it is not the same box. this is the first time i have seen no. . mr. belin. all right. we will substitute for then a copy of the picture without the x mark on it. mr. mccloy. was taken by the news photographer? mr. belin. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. immediately after the shooting? mr. belin. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. the two colored men were still in the position where they were? mr. belin. yes, sir. he actually took two pictures. he took one of the building--that showed most of the south side of the building, and another with a different kind of lens that was aimed up to that particular corner. i will check to see if i can find the other picture, mr mccloy. commission exhibit is the first picture that he took, or i shouldn't say the first--one of the two pictures he took. you can see the southeast corner window on the sixth floor, and i will show you, lieutenant day, that you can still see two of those boxes there, and you can see on the window below, at least you can see, one of the negro men. the other picture was exhibit , and i believe was actually an enlargement of . mr. day. i still don't quite understand that one in relation to pictures here unless something was moved after this was taken before i got there. mr. belin. what you are saving is on that southeast corner window, on the sixth floor, you do not understand the box that is the westernmost box of the two boxes in the window unless it was moved by someone before you got there to take the pictures? mr. day. yes, sir. mr. belin. what about the other box as shown on exhibit , does that appear to be in substantially the same position as the box in the window shown on your exhibit ? mr. day. yes, sir; it appears to be the same. mr. belin. now, on exhibit , that box appears to be almost resting against the east part of the window where it does not so appear on exhibit . is this an optical illusion on ? mr. day. yes, sir; i don't think it was up against the window sill. it was over as indicated on . mr. belin. lieutenant day, you took some two pictures of those shell casings. let me first get you through all the pictures you took. where did you next take pictures on the sixth floor after you took the pictures of the shell casing; what did you do then? mr. day. i went, after these were taken--after your number---- mr. belin. and . mr. day. were taken, i processed these three hulls for fingerprints, using a powder. mr. sims picked them up by the ends and handed them to me. i processed each of the three; did not find fingerprints. as i had finished that, captain fritz sent word for me to come to the northwest part of the building, the rifle had been found, and he wanted photographs. mr. belin. all right. you have mentioned these three hulls. did you put any initials on those at all, any means of identification? mr. day. at that time they were placed in an envelope and the envelope marked. the three hulls were not marked at that time. mr. sims took possession of them. mr. belin. well, did you at any time put any mark on the shells? mr. day. yes, sir. mr. belin. all right. let me first hand you what has been marked as "commission exhibit," part of "commission exhibit - ," and ask you to state if you know what that is. mr. day. this is the envelope the shells were placed in. mr. belin. how many shells were placed in that envelope? mr. day. three. mr. belin. it says here that, it is written on here, "two of the three spent hulls under window on sixth floor." mr. day. yes, sir. mr. belin. did you put all three there? mr. day. three were in there when they were turned over to detective sims at that time. the only writing on it was, "lieut. j. c. day." down here at the bottom. mr. belin. i see. mr. day. "dallas police department," and the date. mr. belin. in other words, you didn't put the writing in that says, "two of the three spent hulls." mr. day. not then. about o'clock in the evening this envelope came back to me with two hulls in it. i say it came to me, it was in a group of stuff, a group of evidence, we were getting ready to release to the fbi. i don't know who brought them back. vince drain, fbi, was present with the stuff, the first i noticed it. at that time there were two hulls inside. i was advised the homicide division was retaining the third for their use. at that time i marked the two hulls inside of this, still inside this envelope. mr. belin. that envelope, which is a part of commission exhibits and ? mr. day. yes, sir; i put the additional marking on at that time. mr. belin. i see. mr. day. you will notice there is a little difference in the ink writing. mr. belin. but all of the writing there is yours? mr. day. yes, sir. mr. belin. now, at what time did you put any initials, if you did put any such initials, on the hull itself? mr. day. at about o'clock when i noticed it back in the identification bureau in this envelope. mr. belin. had the envelope been opened yet or not? mr. day. yes, sir; it had been opened. mr. belin. had the shells been out of your possession then? mr. day. mr. sims had the shells from the time they were moved from the building or he took them from me at that time, and the shells i did not see again until around o'clock. mr. belin. who gave them to you at o'clock? mr. day. they were in this group of evidence being collected to turn over to the fbi. i don't know who brought them back. mr. belin. was the envelope sealed? mr. day. no, sir. mr. belin. had it been sealed when you gave it to mr. sims? mr. day. no, sir; no. mr. belin. handing you what has been marked "exhibit ," i will ask you to state if you know what this is. mr. day. this is one of the hulls in the envelope which i opened at o'clock. it has my name written on the end of it. mr. belin. when you say, on the end of it, where on the end of it? mr. day. on the small end where the slug would go. mr. belin. and it has "day" on it? mr. day. scratched on there; yes, sir. mr. belin. with what instrument did you scratch it on? mr. day. a diamond point pencil. mr. belin. did anyone else scratch any initials on it that you know of? mr. day. i didn't see them. i didn't examine it too close at that time. mr. belin. do you know what kind of a cartridge case that is? mr. day. it is a . . mr. belin. is that the same kind of a cartridge case that you saw when you first saw these cartridge cases? mr. day. yes. mr. belin. is there any other testimony you have with regard to the chain of possession of this shell from the time it was first found until the time it got back to your office? mr. day. no, sir; i told you in our conversation in dallas that i marked those at the scene. after reviewing my records, i didn't think i was on all three of those hulls that you have, indicating i did not mark them at the scene, then i remembered putting them in the envelope, and sims taking them. it was further confirmed today when i noticed that the third hull, which i did not give you, or come to me through you, does not have my mark on it. mr. belin. now, i did interview you approximately weeks ago in dallas, more or less? mr. day. yes, sir. mr. belin. at that time what is the fact as to whether or not i went into extended questions and answers as contrasted with just asking you to tell me about certain areas as to what happened? i mean, i questioned you, of course, but was it more along the lines of just asking you to tell me what happened, or more along the lines of interrogation, the interrogation we are doing now? mr. day. yes, sir. mr. belin. which one? mr. day. wait a minute now. say that again. i am at a loss. mr. belin. maybe it would be easier if i just struck the question and started all over again. mr. day. i remember you asking me if i marked them. mr. belin. yes. mr. day. i remember i told you i did. mr. belin. all right. mr. day. i got to reviewing this, and i got to wondering about whether i did mark those at the scene. mr. belin. your testimony now is that you did not mark any of the hulls at the scene? mr. day. those three; no, sir. mr. belin. i believe you said that you examined the three shells today? mr. day. yes, sir. mr. belin. while you were waiting to have your testimony taken here? mr. day. yes, sir; that is what confirmed my thinking on this. the envelope now was marked. mr. belin. and the shells were in the same envelope that it was marked? mr. day. yes. mr. belin. now, i am going to ask you to state if you know what commission exhibit is? mr. day. that is a hull that does not have my marking on it. mr. belin. do you know whether or not this was one of the hulls that was found at the school book depository building? mr. day. i think it is. mr. belin. what makes you think it is? mr. day. it has the initials "g. d." on it, which is george doughty, the captain that i worked under. mr. belin. was he there at the scene? mr. day. no, sir; this hull came up, this hull that is not marked came up, later. i didn't send that. mr. belin. this was---- mr. day. that was retained. that is the hull that was retained by homicide division when the other two were originally sent in with the gun. mr. belin. you are referring now to commission exhibit as being the one that was retained in your possession for a while? mr. day. it is the one that i did not see again. mr. belin. it appears to be flattened out here. do you know or have you any independent recollection as to whether or not it was flattened out at the small end when you saw it? mr. day. no, sir; i don't. mr. belin. now, handing you what has been marked as commission exhibit , i will ask you to state if you know what this is. mr. day. this is the second hull that was in the envelope when i marked the two hulls that night on november . mr. belin. i have now marked this envelope, which was formerly a part of commission exhibits and with a separate commission exhibit no. , and i believe you testify now that commission exhibit was the other shell that was in the envelope which has now been marked as commission exhibit no. . mr. day. yes. mr. belin. does that cartridge case, exhibit , have your name on it again? mr. day. it has my name on the small end where the slug would go into the shell. mr. belin. are all of the three shells of the same caliber? mr. day. yes, sir. mr. belin. is there any other testimony you have with regard to the cartridge cases themselves? mr. day. no, sir. mr. belin. can you explain how you processed these shells for fingerprints? mr. day. with black fingerprint---- mr. mccloy. may i ask before you get to that, is this all your handwriting? mr. day. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. the narrative as well as the signature? mr. day. yes, sir; this and this. that is not, this is not. mr. mccloy. who is that, what is that initial, do you know? mr. day. i think that is vince drain, the fbi agent it was released to. it looks like a "v. d." i don't know whether his initial is "e" or not. mr. mccloy. can you identify those marks up there, what they are? mr. day. those "q" numbers, i believe, are fbi numbers affixed here in washington. mr. belin. returning to exhibit ---- mr. mccloy. not returning. that is what that last question was about. mr. belin. i believe the last questions were the initials on the cartridge cases. strike the question then. we will start all over again. on commission exhibit no. i see some initials with the notation " - - " in the upper left-hand corner as you take a look at the side which has all of your writing on it here. do you know whose initials those are? mr. day. i think it is vince drain, fbi, but i am not sure. mr. belin. you think it is the initials of vincent e. drain? mr. day. yes, sir; i am not sure if his middle initial is "e". i know it is vince drain. mr. belin. now, on the other side i see some other initials on here with some date and time. do you know whose initials those are? mr. day. "r. m. s." stands for r. m. sims, the detective whom i turned it over to. that is the date and the time that he took it from me. mr. belin. what date and time does it show? mr. day. november , , : p.m. mr. belin. now, i believe you originally stated that you had all three of these cartridge hulls put in exhibit , is that correct? mr. day. yes, sir. mr. belin. and then you turned it over to detective sims? mr. day. yes, sir. mr. belin. was the envelope sealed when you turned it over to detective sims? mr. day. no, sir; i don't think so. mr. belin. did you seal it? mr. day. no, sir. mr. belin. when you got the envelope back later that night was the envelope sealed? mr. day. i don't think so. mr. belin. to the best of your knowledge, had it been sealed and reopened or was it just unsealed? mr. day. to the best of my knowledge it was not sealed. it is possible i could be wrong on that, but i don't think it was sealed. mr. mccloy. in order to make the record perfectly clear, at least my understanding perfectly clear, did i understand that you testified that your initial which appears on that exhibit was--not your initial but your signature which appears on that exhibit was--put on there before the other writing, namely to the effect that there were two of the three hulls enclosed, that was put on the envelope? mr. belin. you are referring, mr. mccloy, to the signature on the bottom of commission exhibit , "lieutenant j. c. day." mr. mccloy. that is what i am referring to. mr. day. that was put on there before. mr. mccloy. that was put on there---- mr. day. at : p.m. mr. belin. and the remainder of the writing was put on that night at the dallas police department, is that right? mr. day. yes, sir; about the same time that i marked those two hulls. mr. belin. could you tell us what exactly you did in testing those hulls for fingerprints? mr. day. i used fingerprint powder, dusted them with the powder, a dark powder. no legible prints were found. mr. belin. after you did this, you dusted the prints and you put them in the envelope, , and then what did you do? mr. day. i released them to detective sims or rather he took them. mr. belin. and then what did you do? mr. day. at that time i was summoned to the northwest corner of the building. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. day. sir? mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. day. i met captain fritz. he wanted photographs of the rifle before it was moved. mr. belin. do you remember if captain fritz told you that the rifle had not been moved? mr. day. he told me he wanted photographs before it was moved, if i remember correctly. he definitely told me it had not been moved, and the reason for the photographs he wanted it photographed before it was moved. mr. belin. i am going to hand you what the reporter has marked or what has been marked as commission exhibit , and ask you to state, if you know, what this is. mr. day. this is a photograph made by me of the rifle where it was found in the northwest portion of the sixth floor, elm street, dallas. mr. belin. i am going to hand you what has been marked as commission exhibit and ask you to state if you know what that is. mr. day. it is a picture of the portion of the northwest floor where the rifle was found. this is a distance shot showing the stack of boxes. mr. belin. is commission exhibit a print from the same negative as commission exhibit ? mr. day. the same negative? mr. belin. yes, sir. mr. day. no, i don't think so. this is a copy of this picture. mr. belin. you are saying was made, i assume, as a copy of . by that you mean a negative, a second negative, was made of from which was taken? mr. day. yes, sir. mr. belin. otherwise it is the same? mr. day. yes, sir. mr. belin. appears to be a little clearer and sharper. mr. day. you can tell from looking at the two pictures which is the copy. mr. belin. was any other picture of that rifle made in that position? mr. day. nos. and were both made. mr. belin. your pictures which you have marked no. and no. were both made, one was made by you, is that commission exhibit ---- mr. day. yes, sir. mr. belin. and the other was made by---- mr. day. detective studebaker. mr. belin. whose knee appears? mr. day. yes, sir; showing. identical shots, we just made both to be sure that one of us made it, and it would be in focus. mr. belin. for this reason i am introducing only , if that is satisfactory. mr. mccloy. very well. mr. belin. how did you stand to take the picture, exhibit ? mr. day. i was on top of a stack of boxes to the south of where the gun was found. mr. belin. i wonder if you could put on exhibit the location with an "x" where you stood to take the picture, . mr. day. i was in that position looking this way, but you can't tell which box i was on looking from that angle. mr belin. i mean, you have placed an "x" on exhibit . were you sitting or standing on top of a stack of boxes in that general area? mr. day. kneeling. mr. belin. kneeling? mr. day. yes, sir. mr. belin. in what direction would your face have been? mr. day. facing north and down. mr. belin. facing north and looking down? mr. day. yes, sir; to the floor. mr. belin. can you see the rifle at all in exhibit ? mr. day. no, sir. mr. belin. had the rifle been removed when was taken, if you know? mr. day. i don't remember. mr. belin. could you locate with an arrow on exhibit the place where the rifle would have been? mr. day. here. mr. belin. you have so noted with an arrow on . was the rifle resting on the floor or not? mr. day. yes, sir. mr. belin. it was? mr. day. the rifle was resting on the floor. mr. belin. what else did you do in connection with the rifle at that particular time? mr. day. captain fritz was present. after we got the photographs i asked him if he was ready for me to pick it up, and he said, yes. i picked the gun up by the wooden stock. i noted that the stock was too rough apparently to take fingerprints, so i picked it up, and captain fritz opened the bolt as i held the gun. a live round fell to the floor. mr. belin. did you initial that live round at all? mr. day. yes, sir; my name is on it. mr. belin. when did you place your name on this live round, if you remember? mr. day. how? mr. belin. when? mr. day. at the time, that was marked at the scene. mr. belin. handing you commission exhibit no. . i will ask you to state if you know what this is. mr. day. it has "day" on it where i scratched it on the small end where the slug goes into the shell. mr. belin. what is this, what is exhibit ? mr. day. that is the live round that fell from the rifle when captain fritz opened the bolt. mr. belin. what did you do with this after you put your name on it? mr. day. captain fritz took possession of it. i retained possession of the rifle. mr. belin. did you process this live round at all for prints? mr. day. yes, sir; i did. i did not find any prints. mr. mccloy. before captain fritz ejected the live cartridge, did you dust the rifle for fingerprints? mr. day. not before. mr. belin. did you dust the bolt for fingerprints? mr. day. yes, sir. mr. belin. before the live round was ejected? mr. day. no, no; the only part that captain fritz touched was the round nob. i looked at it through a glass and decided there was not a print there, and it would be safe for him to open the bolt. mr. belin. you did this before it was ejected, before the live round was ejected? mr. day. yes, sir. mr. belin. who held the rifle while you looked at it with the glass? mr. day. i held it. mr. belin. in one hand? mr. day. one hand, using the glass with the other. mr. belin. how did you try to process the live round for prints? mr. day. with black fingerprint powder. mr. belin. let me ask you this in an effort, perhaps, to save time. in all of your processing of prints did you use anything other than this black powder at the scene that day? mr. day. no, sir. mr. belin. so whenever you say you processed for prints you used black powder, is that correct? mr. day. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. when was the rifle as such dusted with fingerprint powder? mr. day. after ejecting the live round, then i gave my attention to the rifle. i put fingerprint powder on the side of the rifle over the magazine housing. i noticed it was rather rough. i also noticed there were traces of two prints visible. i told captain fritz it was too rough to do there, it should go to the office where i would have better facilities for trying to work with the fingerprints. mr. mccloy. but you could note with your naked eye or with a magnifying glass the remnants of fingerprints on the stock? mr. day. yes, sir; i could see traces of ridges, fingerprint ridges, on the side of the housing. mr. belin. lieutenant day, as i understand it, you held the stock of the rifle when captain fritz operated the bolt? mr. day. yes, sir. mr. belin. now, when you first came over to see the rifle, was it easily visible or not? mr. day. i beg pardon? mr. belin. when you first came over to see the rifle, when you were first called there, what is the fact as to whether or not it was easily visible? mr. day. no, sir; you had to look over the box and down to see it. you could not see it ordinarily walking down the aisle. mr. belin. was anything resting on top of it? mr. day. on top of the gun? mr. belin. yes. mr. day. no, sir. mr. belin. do you have any estimate as to how wide or what the width was of that particular area in which the rifle was placed? in other words, the area between the boxes, how much space was there? mr. day. it was just wide enough to accommodate that rifle and hold it in an upright position. mr. belin. was the location at which you found the rifle completely surrounded by boxes or was it kind of like two parallel rows of boxes without boxes at either end of it? mr. day. there was three or four rows of boxes there. mr. belin. what i mean is this: if you can visualize a narrow squared "o," was it more like a narrow squared "o" so far as the boxes were concerned, with sort of an island of space in the center or was it more like just two basic rows of boxes with nothing at either end? mr. day. i don't quite follow you there. mr. belin. i will restate the question this way. mr. day. there were four parallel lines of boxes. the second line from the north side was not completely filled. in other words, there was vacant places in this particular line. mr. belin. i am going to hand you what has been marked commission exhibit and ask you to state if you know what this is. mr. day. this is the rifle found on the sixth floor of the texas book store at elm street, november , . mr. belin. what date? mr. day. november , . mr. belin. does it have any identification mark of yours on it? mr. day. it has my name "j. c. day" scratched on the stock. mr. belin. and on the stock you are pointing to your name which is scratched as you would hold the rifle and rest it on the stock, approximately an inch or so from the bottom of the stock on the sling side of the stock, is that correct? mr. day. yes, sir. mr. belin. do you have any recollection as to what the serial number was of that? mr. day. yes, sir; i recorded it at the time, c- . mr. belin. before you say that---- mr. day. c- , excuse me. mr. belin. do you have any record of that with you or not? mr. day. yes, sir; this is the record i made of the gun when i took it back to the office. now, the gun did not leave my possession. mr. belin. from the time it was found at the school book depository building? mr. day. yes, sir; i took the gun myself and retained possession, took it to the office where i dictated---- mr. belin. could you just read into the record what you dictated. mr. day. to my secretary. she wrote on the typewriter: " x , coated, ordinance optics, inc., hollywood, california, japan. osc inside a clover-leaf design." mr. belin. what did that have reference to? mr. day. that was stamped on the scopic sight on top of the gun. on the gun itself, " . caliber c- , made in italy." that was what was on the gun. i dictated certain other stuff, other information, for her to type for me. mr. belin. well, you might just as well dictate the rest there. mr. day. "when bolt opened one live round was in the barrel. no prints are on the live round. captain fritz and lieutenant day opened the barrel. captain fritz has the live round. three spent hulls were found under the window. they were picked up by detective sims and witnessed by lieutenant day and studebaker. the clip is stamped 'smi, x .'" mr. belin. could you tell us what other processing you did with this particular rifle? mr. day. beg pardon? mr. belin. what other processing did you do with this particular rifle? mr. day. i took it to the office and tried to bring out the two prints i had seen on the side of the gun at the bookstore. they still were rather unclear. due to the roughness of the metal, i photographed them rather than try to lift them. i could also see a trace of a print on the side of the barrel that extended under the woodstock. i started to take the woodstock off and noted traces of a palmprint near the firing end of the barrel about inches under the woodstock when i took the woodstock loose. mr. belin. you mean inches from the small end of the woodstock? mr. day. right--yes, sir. mr. mccloy. from the firing end of the barrel, you mean the muzzle? mr. day. the muzzle; yes, sir. mr. belin. let me clarify the record. by that you mean you found it on the metal or you mean you found it on the wood? mr. day. on the metal, after removing the wood. mr. belin. the wood. you removed the wood, and then underneath the wood is where you found the print? mr. day. on the bottom side of the barrel which was covered by the wood, i found traces of a palmprint. i dusted these and tried lifting them, the prints, with scotch tape in the usual manner. a faint palmprint came off. i could still see traces of the print under the barrel and was going to try to use photography to bring off or bring out a better print. about this time i received instructions from the chief's office to go no further with the processing, it was to be released to the fbi for them to complete. i did not process the underside of the barrel under the scopic sight, did not get to this area of the gun. mr. belin. do you know what commission exhibit no. is? mr. day. this is the trace of palmprint i lifted off of the barrel of the gun after i had removed the wood. mr. belin. does it have your name on it or your handwriting? mr. day. it has the name "j. c. day," and also " / / " written on it in my writing off the underside gun barrel near the end of foregrip, c- . mr. belin. when you lift a print is it then harder to make a photograph of that print after it is lifted or doesn't it make any difference? mr. day. it depends. if it is a fresh print, and by fresh i mean hadn't been there very long and dried, practically all the print will come off and there will be nothing left. if it is an old print, that is pretty well dried, many times you can still see it after the lift. in this case i could still see traces of print on that barrel. mr. belin. did you do anything with the other prints or partial prints that you said you thought you saw? mr. day. i photographed them only. i did not try to lift them. mr. belin. do you have those photographs, sir? i will mark the two photographs which you have just produced commission exhibits and . i will ask you to state what these are. mr. day. these are prints or pictures, i should say, of the latent--of the traces of prints on the side of the magazine housing of the gun no. c- . mr. belin. were those prints in such condition as to be identifiable, if you know? mr. day. no, sir; i could not make positive identification of these prints. mr. belin. did you have enough opportunity to work and get these pictures or not? mr. day. i worked with them, yes. i could not exclude all possibility as to identification. i thought i knew which they were, but i could not positively identify them. mr. belin. what was your opinion so far as it went as to whose they were? mr. day. they appeared to be the right middle and right ring finger of harvey lee oswald, lee harvey oswald. mr. belin. at the time you had this did you have any comparison fingerprints to make with the actual prints of lee harvey oswald? mr. day. yes, sir; we had sets in captain fritz' office. oswald was in his custody, we had made palmprints and fingerprints of him. mr. belin. is there any other processing that you did with the rifle? mr. day. no, sir. mr. belin. at what time, if you know, did you release the rifle to the fbi? mr. day. : p.m. the rifle was released or picked up by them and taken from the office. mr. belin. was that on november ? mr. day. november , . mr. belin. at what time did these same photographs which are the same as commission exhibit and of this print---- mr. day. about o'clock, somewhere around o'clock, in that neighborhood. mr. belin. of what date? mr. day. november , . mr. belin. what about the lift which has previously been marked as commission exhibit ? mr. day. about what? mr. belin. when did you turn that over to the fbi? mr. day. i released that to them on november , . i did not release this---- mr. belin. you are referring now---- mr. day. on november . mr. belin. you are referring to commission exhibit ? mr. day. yes. mr. belin. is there any particular reason why this was not released on the d? mr. day. the gun was being sent in to them for process of prints. actually i thought the print on the gun was their best bet, still remained on there, and, too, there was another print, i thought possibly under the wood part up near the trigger housing. mr. belin. you mean the remaining traces of the powder you had when you got the lift, exhibit , is that what you mean by the lift of the remaining print on the gun? mr. day. yes, sir. actually it was dried ridges on there. there were traces of ridges still on the gun barrel. mr. belin. can you tell the circumstances under which you sent exhibit to the fbi? mr. day. we released certain evidence to the fbi, including the gun, on november . it was returned to us on november . then on november we received instructions to send back to the fbi everything that we had. mr. belin. did you do that? mr. day. yes, sir; and at that time i sent the lift marked---- mr. belin. . mr. day. yes. the gun was sent back again, and all of the other evidence that i had, including cartons from texas bookstore, and various other items, a rather lengthy list. mr. belin. had the fbi in the interim returned the gun to you then after you sent it to them on november ? mr. day. yes, sir. mr. belin. when the rifle was photographed, as i understand it, you were the one who lifted it out of there, is that correct? mr. day. yes, sir. mr. belin. was it wedged in very tight or could you readily lift it up without moving any boxes? mr. day. it came out without moving any boxes. it wasn't wedged in. mr. mccloy. am i to understand your testimony, lieutenant, about the fingerprints to be you said you were positive--you couldn't make a positive identification, but it was your opinion that these were the fingerprints of lee oswald? mr. day. well, actually in fingerprinting it either is or is not the man. so i wouldn't say those were his prints. they appeared similar to these two, certainly bore further investigation to see if i could bring them out better. but from what i had i could not make a positive identification as being his prints. mr. mccloy. how about the palmprint? mr. day. the palmprint again that i lifted appeared to be his right palm, but i didn't get to work enough on that to fully satisfy myself it was his palm. with a little more work i would have come up with the identification there. mr. belin. lieutenant day, what is the fact as to whether or not palmprints are a sound means of identification of an individual? mr. day. you have the same characteristics of the palms that you do the fingers, also on the soles of feet. they are just as good for identification purposes. mr. belin. is there anything else you did in connection with the rifle, the cartridges, the live cartridge, or the taking of prints from any of these metallic objects that you haven't talked about yet? mr. day. no, sir; i believe that is the extent of the prints on any of those articles. mr. belin. did you make a positive identification of any palmprint or fingerprint? mr. day. not off the rifle or slug at that time. mr, belin. at any other time did you off the rifle or the slugs? mr. day. after i have been looking at that thing again here today, that is his right palm. but at that time i had not no---- mr. belin. when you are saying you looked at that thing today, to what are you referring? mr. day. your no. is the right palm of oswald. mr. belin. handing you what has been marked "exhibit " i ask you to state if you know what this is. mr. day. that is the right palm of lee harvey oswald. mr. belin. do you know where this print was taken? mr. day. yes, sir; it was taken by detective j. b. hicks in captain fritz' office on november , . mr. belin. did you take more than one right palmprint on that day, if you know? mr. day. yes, sir; we took two, actually we took three. two of them were taken in captain fritz' office, and one set which i witnessed taking myself in the identification bureau. mr. belin. any particular reason why you took more than one? mr. day. in most cases, when making comparisons, we will take at least two to insure we have a good clear print of the entire palm. mr. belin. now, based---- mr. day. one might be smeared where the other would not. mr. belin. based on your experience, i will ask you now for a definitive statement as to whether or not you can positively identify the print shown on commission exhibit as being from the right palm of lee harvey oswald as shown on commission exhibit ? mr. day. maybe i shouldn't absolutely make a positive statement without further checking that. i think it is his, but i would have to sit down and take two glasses to make an additional comparison before i would say absolutely, excluding all possibility, it is. i think it is, but i would have to do some more work on that. mr. belin. could you do that here in washington before you go back, sir, or would this necessitate going back to dallas? mr. day. if i had the proper equipment i think i could do it here. i don't have very good equipment for making comparisons here. i need two fingerprint glasses. it was my understanding the prints had been identified by the fbi. i don't have official word on it. mr. belin. is there any other thing that you did with regard to the rifle that you haven't discussed this far that you can remember right now? mr. day. no, sir; i released it to the fbi then, and they took possession of it. mr. belin. did you ever hear this rifle referred to as a . mauser or as any type of a mauser? mr. day. yes, sir; it wasn't referred to as that. some of the newsmen, when i first carried the rifle out, asked me if it was a . - , and at another time they asked me if it was a mauser. i did not give them an answer. mr. belin. were there newsmen on the sixth floor at the time the rifle was found, if you know? mr. day. i think there was. mr. belin. did you ever describe the rifle as anything but a . -caliber with regard to the rifle itself? mr. day. i didn't describe the rifle to anyone other than police officers. mr. belin. is the description that you used with the police officers the same that you dictated here into the record from your notes? mr. day. yes, sir. mr. belin. anything else with regard to the rifle? mr. day. i can't think of anything else that i did with it at the time. i don't know whether you are interested in this or not, but about, it must have been about : i was processing the gun on the fourth floor---- mr. belin. of the police department there? mr. day. of the police department where my office is. the identification bureau. and captain fritz came up and said he had mrs. oswald in his office on the third floor, but the place was so jammed with news cameramen and newsmen he did not want to bring her out into it. mr. belin. was this the wife or the mother of lee harvey oswald? mr. day. that was marina, oswald's wife. she had her baby with her, or babies, and there was an interpreter down there. he wanted her to look at the gun to see if she could identify it, didn't want to bring her in through the crowd, and wanted to know if we could carry it down. he said, "there is an awful mob down there." i explained to him that i was still working with the prints, but i thought i could carry it down without disturbing the prints, which i did. we waded through the mob with me holding the gun up high. no one touched it. several of the newsmen asked me various questions about what the gun was at that time. i did not give them an answer. when i went back to the office after marina oswald viewed the gun, they still were hounding me for it. i told them to check with the chief's office, he would have to give them the information, and as soon as i got back to my office i gave a complete description, and so forth, to captain king on the gun. mr. belin. were you there when marina oswald was asked whether or not she could identify it? mr. day. yes, sir. but i didn't understand what she said. i was standing across the room from her where i couldn't understand. the interpreter said something to her and said something to captain fritz. i didn't catch what was said. i mentioned that because there was some talk about a mauser and . - at the time and various other things, that is the reason i mentioned it. mr. belin. you just refused to answer all questions on that, is that correct? mr. day. yes, sir. it wasn't my place to give them that information. i didn't know whether they wanted it out yet or not. mr. mccloy. there was never any doubt in your mind what the rifle was from the minute you saw it? mr. day. no, sir; it was stamped right on there, . , and when en route to the office with mr. odum, the fbi agent who drove me in, he radioed it in, he radioed in what it was to the fbi over the air. mr. belin. what else did you do, or what was the next thing you did after you completed photographing and inspecting the rifle on the sixth floor of the texas school book depository building for whatever prints you could find, what did you do next? mr. day. i took the gun at the time to the office and locked it up in a box in my office at captain fritz' direction. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. day. i went back to the school book depository and stayed there. it was around three that i got back, and i was in that building until about , directing the other officers as to what we needed in the way of photographs and some drawing, and so forth. mr. belin. what did you do when you got back, what photographs did you take? mr. day. we went, made the outside photographs of the street, we made more photographs inside, and did further checking for prints by using dust on the boxes around the window. mr. belin. i hand you what has been marked as "commission exhibit " and ask you to state if you know what this is. mr. day. yes, sir. this is a view of houston street looking south from the sixth floor of the texas school book depository building. mr. belin. do you know when that was taken? mr. day. about or : , somewhere along there, on november , . mr. mccloy. you say from the sixth floor; was it from the farthest east window? mr. day. the south window on the east end of the building. mr. belin. you don't mean that. state that again. what side of the building was the window on? mr. day. it was on the south side of the building, the easternmost window. mr. belin. at the time you took exhibit had any boxes been moved at all? mr. day. yes, sir. mr. belin. here is exhibit , and i will ask you to state if you know what that is. mr. day. this is a view from the same window looking southwest down elm street. actually this is the direction the shots were fired. when this picture was made---- mr. belin. when you say this picture you are referring to--i think i have skipped a number here. mr. mccloy. this is . mr. belin. all right. when was made, you---- mr. day. i did not know the direction the shots had been fired. mr. belin. all right. i'm going to hand you what i have already marked as . what about that one? mr. day. this was made, was made, some to minutes after when i received information that the shooting actually occurred on elm rather than houston street. the boxes had been moved at that time. mr. belin. in there are boxes in the window. were those boxes in the window the way you saw them, or had they been replaced in the window to reconstruct it? mr. day. they had simply been moved in the processing for prints. they weren't put back in any particular order. mr. belin. so does not represent, so far as the boxes are concerned, the crime scene when you first came to the sixth floor; is that correct? mr. day. that is correct. mr. belin. let me ask you this: had all of the boxes of the stack in been replaced there or had any of the boxes been in a position they were at the time you first arrived at the building, if you know? mr. day. no, sir; they had not been placed in the proper position or approximate position at the time we arrived. mr. belin. now, i am going to hand you what i will mark as " " and ask you to state if you know what this is. mr. day. ---- mr. belin. no; . mr. day. is the southeast corner of the sixth floor of the texas school book depository building. mr. belin. who took that picture, if you know? mr. day. detective studebaker. mr. belin. was it taken under your direction and supervision, mr. day? mr. day. yes, sir; i was present. the two metal boxes you will note to the left, are our fingerprint equipment that inadvertently got into the picture with a wide-angle lens camera. mr. belin. when you say to the left---- mr. day. to the right. mr. belin. you mean as you face the picture to the right. mr. day. yes. mr. belin. do you want to circle on exhibit your fingerprint equipment? mr. day. yes. mr. belin. now, i will ask you to state if you know if this picture was taken before any of the boxes shown on were moved. mr. day. to the best of my knowledge they had not been moved. mr. belin. and straight ahead the camera is pointed toward it? mr. day. to the south. mr. belin. at which window? mr. day. toward the window where the hulls were found. mr. belin. i'm going to hand you what has been marked as " ," and ask you to state if you know what this is. mr. day. that is a view of the same window as except it shows the full length of the aisle. mr. belin. was taken before the boxes were moved, if you know? mr. day. i beg your pardon? mr. belin. was commission exhibit taken before any boxes were moved, if you know? mr. day. to the best of my knowledge, nothing had been moved. mr. belin. i'm going to hand you what has been marked as and ask you to state if you know what this is. mr. day. this is the next aisle over, or the next aisle west of the aisle shown in . actually, this was taken on november . some movement had been made of the boxes as shown in . mr. belin. all right. so you now are saying commission exhibit was taken on november ---- mr. day. yes, sir. mr. belin. and there had been some movement of the boxes? mr. day. yes, sir. mr. belin. generally did it depict the area as you saw it on november ? mr. day. yes, sir. mr. belin. i am handing you commission exhibit and ask you to state if you know what that is. mr. day. is the sixth floor of the texas school book depository, taken looking east along the inside of the south wall. mr. belin. when was that taken? mr. day. november , . mr. belin. just by general means of identification, perhaps it might help to see when some pictures were taken and some pictures were not taken. i think you can see on exhibit that the shadows show that the sun would not as yet have reached a due south position. is that correct? mr. day. that is correct. it was taken in the morning. this is the morning shadow. mr. belin. handing you what has been marked , would you state if you know what this is? mr. day. this is the third aisle from the east side of the building, sixth floor, texas school book depository. mr. belin. was that taken on november or november ? mr. day. it was taken on november , . mr. belin. again you can note the shadows at this time, and it would appear as a southwesterly sun. mr. day. yes, sir. mr. belin. i notice a pop bottle there. do you know whether or not that pop bottle was there at the time you got to the scene? mr. day. it was, sir. mr. belin. was it in the same relation as that two-wheeler cart, if you know? mr. day. to the best of my knowledge nothing had been moved there. mr. belin. did you see anything else with the pop bottle when you were in that area? mr. day. there was a brown-paper sack, like a lunch sack. mr. belin. about how large? mr. day. it does not show in the picture. mr. belin. where would the sack have been located? mr. day. sir? mr. belin. where would that sack have been located, if you know? mr. day. i don't remember. mr. belin. would this have been at the third pair of windows counting from the east; when you meant the third aisle, did you mean the third set of windows also? mr. day. yes, sir. mr. belin. you mentioned a sack that would have been at that third aisle. was any kind of a sack found on the sixth floor, if you know? mr. day. yes, sir. mr. belin. what other kind of a sack was found? mr. day. a homemade sack, brown paper with -inch tape found right in the corner, the southeast corner of the building near where the slugs were found. mr. mccloy. near where the hulls were found? mr. day. near where the hulls. what did i say? mr. mccloy. slugs. mr. day. hulls. mr. belin. i'm going to hand you what has been marked as commission exhibit and ask you to state if you know what this is. mr. day. is a photograph of the inside wall, south and east walls, right at the corner of the building at the sixth floor of the texas book depository. mr. belin. i notice some pipes on the right portion of this picture as you face it, and i also notice a box. i will first ask you to state if this picture was taken before or after anything was removed from the area. mr. day. the sack had been removed. mr. belin. had any change been made of the position of that box that is set off by itself in the center of the picture? mr. day. i don't think the box--well, it is possible the box had been moved. this is an approximate position of it. the box had been dusted for powder and--dusted for prints. the black powder is visible on it. it is possible the box may have been moved a tiny bit. mr. belin. where was the sack found with relation to the pipes and that box? mr. day. between the sack and the south wall, which would be the wall at the top of the picture as shown here. mr. belin. you mean between--you said the sack. mr. day. i mean the pipe. the sack was between the pipe and the wall at the top of the picture. mr. belin. that wall at the top of the picture would be the east wall, would it not? mr. day. yes, sir; laying parallel to the south wall. mr. belin. did the sack--was it folded over in any way or just lying flat, if you remember? mr. day. it was folded over with the fold next to the pipe, to the best of my knowledge. mr. belin. i will now hand you what has been marked as commission exhibit and ask you to state if you know what this is, and also appears to be marked as commission exhibit . mr. day. this is the sack found on the sixth floor in the southeast corner of the building on november , . mr. belin. do you have any identification on that to so indicate? mr. day. it has my name on it, and it also has other writing that i put on there for the information of the fbi. mr. belin. could you read what you wrote on there? mr. day. "found next to the sixth floor window gun fired from. may have been used to carry gun. lieutenant j. c. day." mr. belin. when did you write that? mr. day. i wrote that at the time the sack was found before it left our possession. mr. belin. all right, anything else that you wrote on there? mr. day. when the sack was released on november to the fbi about : p.m., i put further information to the fbi reading as follows: "fbi: has been dusted with metallic magnetic powder on outside only. inside has not been processed. lieut. j. c. day." mr. belin. did you find anything, any print of any kind, in connection with the processing of this? mr. day. no legible prints were found with the powder, no. mr. belin. do you know whether any legible prints were found by any other means or any other place? mr. day. there is a legible print on it now. they were on there when it was returned to me from the fbi on november . mr. belin. do you know by what means they found these? mr. day. it is apparently silver nitrate. it could be another compound they have used. the sack had an orange color indicating it was silver nitrate. mr. belin. you mean the sack when it came back from the fbi had a---- mr. day. orange color. it is another method of processing paper for fingerprints. mr. belin. was there anything inside the bag, if you know, when you found it? mr. day. i did not open the bag. i did not look inside of the bag at all. mr. belin. what did you do with the bag after you found it and you put this writing on after you dusted it? mr. day. i released it to the fbi agent. mr. belin. did you take it down to the station with you? mr. day. i didn't take it with me. i left it with the men when i left. i left detectives hicks and studebaker to bring this in with them when they brought other equipment in. mr. belin. by this you are referring to the bag itself? mr. day. yes, sir. mr. belin. did you ever get the kind of sample used at the school book depository? mr. day. yes, sir; on the afternoon of november , . i had the bag listed as---- mr. belin. commission exhibit or . mr. day. on the first floor of the texas school book depository, and i noticed from their wrapping bench there was paper and tape of a similar--the tape--as of the same width as this. i took the bag over and tried it, and i noticed that the tape was the same width as on the bag. mr. belin. did it appear to have the same color? mr. day. yes, sir. mr. belin. all right. then what did you do? mr. day. sir? mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. day. i directed one of the officers standing by me, i don't know which, to get a piece of the tape and a piece of the paper from the wrapping bench. mr. belin. handing you what has been marked as commission exhibit , i will ask you to state if you know what this is. mr. day. this is the tape and paper collected from the first floor in the shipping department of the texas school book depository on november , . mr. belin. does this have any identification marks on it? mr. day. it has my name, "j. c. day, dallas police department," and also in my writing. "shipping department." mr. belin. any other writing on there that you recognize? mr. day. yes, sir; detective studebaker, who was with me, and in his writing it says. "paper sample from first floor, texas school book depository, studebaker, - - ." the tape also has studebaker's writing on it, "tape sample from first floor." mr. belin. i will ask you to state if you know what are exhibits , and ? mr. day. these are photographs of the wrapping bench on the first floor, texas school book depository, taken by me on april , , after i had talked to you when i was back in the building. i didn't have a previous picture of this wrapping bench. mr. belin. does that represent the location on the first floor of the school book depository building where you got the tape sample, commission exhibit ? mr. day. yes, sir; it is approximately the same. i do not think the benches had been changed since the november shooting. mr. belin. do you recognize at any point on any of the exhibits the actual tape machine that was used? mr. day. the one that we removed this from was the north roll and tape on the east side of the bench. mr. belin. you are now pointing at exhibit . i notice a roll of paper underneath the bench in the center of the picture. is that where you got the big paper, the main paper on commission exhibit ? mr. day. yes, sir. to the best of my knowledge that is the roll we tore the paper off of. mr. belin. what about tape itself? mr. day. the tape was from the machine immediately above that roll of paper on top of the bench. mr. belin. were there other tape machines there also? mr. day. yes; but i didn't notice them at the time. mr. belin. how did you get the tape from out of the machine, if you remember? mr. day. just pulled the tape off and tear it out and tear it off. mr. belin. was there a lever at all that you used, if you remember if there is such a lever? mr. day. i don't remember. i don't think we used the lever. mr. belin. what did you do with commission exhibit ? mr. day. i released this, i released to vince drain of the fbi, : p.m., november , . mr. belin. i am going to hand you what has been marked as commission exhibit and ask you to state if you know what this is. mr. day. this is the southeast corner of the sixth floor at the window where the shooting apparently occurred. the boxes in front of the window, to the best of our knowledge, in the position they were in when we arrived there on november , . mr. belin. so represents a reconstruction in that sense, is that correct? mr. day. yes, sir. mr. belin. what about exhibit---- mr. day. this, by the way, was taken on november , . mr. belin. all right. what about ? mr. day. that is another view of the same boxes shown in . mr. belin. in you can also see this juncture of the south and east walls of the sixth floor where you say the bag was found; is that correct? mr. day. yes, sir. mr. belin. i want to turn for the moment to . i notice that the box on appears to have a portion of it torn off and then replaced again. is this correct or not? mr. day. yes, sir. mr. belin. i am going to hand you what has been marked as commission exhibit and ask you to state if you know what this is. mr. day. yes, sir. this is a portion torn from the box shown in . mr. belin. while you are holding that i'm going to hand you commission exhibit and ask you to state if you know what this is. mr. day. that is the box shown in at the center of the picture. mr. belin. is that the box, , from which was torn? mr. day. yes, sir; it is. mr. belin. could you relate what transpired to cause to be torn from ? mr. day. after i returned to the sixth floor of the texas school book depository after delivering the gun to my office, we processed the boxes in that area, in the area of the window where the shooting apparently occurred, with powder. this particular box was processed and a palmprint, a legible palmprint, developed on the northwest corner of the box, on the top of the box as it was sitting on the floor. mr. belin. then what did you do when you developed this print? mr. day. i placed a piece of transparent tape, ordinary scotch tape, which we use for fingerprint work, over the developed palmprint. mr. belin. and then what did you do? mr. day. i tore the cardboard from the box that contained the palmprint. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. day. the box was left in its position, but the palmprint was taken by me to the identification bureau. mr. belin. did you make any identification of it? mr. day. yes, sir. later that night when i had a chance to get palmprints from lee harvey oswald. i made a comparison with the palmprint off of the box, your , and determined that the palmprint on the box was made by the right palm of lee harvey oswald. mr. belin. did you make any identification on exhibit which would indicate that this is the palmprint you took? mr. day. it has in my writing, "from top of box oswald apparently sat on to fire gun. lieut. j. c. day," and it is marked "right palm of oswald. lieut. j. c. day." there is also an arrow indicating north and where the palmprint was found. it further has detective studebaker's name on it, and he also wrote on there, "from top of box subject sat on." mr. belin. now, when was that placed on that exhibit, that writing of yours, when was it placed on there? mr. day. it was placed on there november , . mr. belin. can you identify by any way commission exhibit ? mr. day. this has my name "j. c. day" written on it. it also has "r. l. studebaker" written on it. it has written in the corner in my writing, "southwest corner box inches from wall." mr. belin. i also see the name "w. h. shelley" written on there. do you know when this was put on? mr. day. w. h. shelley is the assistant manager apparently of the texas school book depository. mr. belin. did he put it on at the time you found the box? mr. day. no, sir. mr. belin. do you know when that was placed on there? mr. day. that was placed there november . the box was not removed, just the cardboard was removed on november --excuse me, november i should say that he put his name on there. i returned to the school book depository on november and collected this box. mr. mccloy. did he say southwest on that or southeast? mr. belin. i believe he said that he has here that the southwest corner of the box is inches from the wall. mr. day. yes, sir; that being the south wall. mr. mccloy. this is the southwest corner of the box he is talking about? mr. day. yes, sir. mr. belin. that is what is written on commission exhibit . mr. mccloy. it depends on where that box was. it is kind of a removable direction, isn't it? mr. belin. i am going to hand you what has been marked commission exhibit , exhibit. , and exhibit , and ask you to state if you know what these are. i will start with first. mr. day. is a box found in front of the window, texas school book depository. apparently the gun had rested across this. this is the top box now of two that were sitting in the window. mr. mccloy. at the sixth floor window from which the shots are alleged to have been fired? mr. day. where the gun was fired from. mr. belin. does this box appear on commission exhibit ? mr. day. no, sir; this does not show. mr. belin. in other words, what you are saying is that the box, , is not the box which is shown in the window on ? mr. day. that is correct. mr. belin. taking a look now at the box no. , i want to ask you to state if you know what this is. mr. day. this is the box that is shown on , that is in the window. mr. belin. does it have any means of identification? mr. day. it has my name "j. c. day," also "r. l. studebaker" marked "box b." mr. belin. i see you have a notation about the top, which appears to be reading on the side of the box. what does that mean? mr. day. that is the top of the box as it was sitting in the window sill, on the window sill. mr. belin. i see you have an arrow with the arrow pointing to the north. placing the box on the table here with the arrow pointing in a north direction, it would appear the box is lying on its side, is that correct? mr. day. yes, sir. mr. belin. is that the way you found it in the window before you moved it? mr. day. yes, sir. mr. belin. is that the way it is shown on ? mr. day. yes, sir. mr. belin. is there any kind of a mark to show what the contents of this box were? mr. day. it says "ten rolling readers." mr. belin. is there anything, any other identification, that you found on it? did you dust this for prints? mr. day. yes, sir. mr. belin. did you find any? mr. day. not with the powder. mr. belin. did you find any in any way? mr. day. no; i didn't find any. mr. belin. do you know if anyone else found any? mr. day. no, sir; i don't. mr. belin. when did you put your initials on the boxes, and , if you know? mr. day. i am not certain whether it was the d or th when we collected the boxes. mr. belin. i notice your initials are also on , is that correct? mr. day. yes, sir. mr. belin. again you have marked the side of the box as being the top, is that correct? mr. day. yes, sir. mr. belin. putting your initials on there? mr. day. yes, sir; and my name is on it "j. c. day." mr. belin. if you put your initials on or your name on on november , how do you know this was the same box that was there when you first came? mr. day. there was a scar on the top of or the top side of this box that was sitting there. i noticed that at the time. i thought the recoil of the gun had caused that. i later decided that was in the wrong direction. it was not the recoil of the gun but i did notice this scar on the box. mr. belin. when you came back on the th where did you find this box, ? mr. day. they were still in the area of the window but had been moved from their original position. mr. belin. does that scar appear on the box in ? mr. day. yes, sir. mr. belin. i see there was one box in the window which you have reconstructed as being box , am i correct on that? mr. day. yes, sir. mr. belin. and then there is a box which is stacked on top of another box, the upper box of that two-box stack is , is that correct? mr. day. yes, sir. mr. belin. and there is a scar on top of that. is this the same one that you referred to at the top of ? mr. day. yes, sir. mr. belin. do you know when you initialed box no. ? mr. day. no, sir; i don't know exactly which day it was. mr. belin. do you have any independent recollection of this being the same box you saw in the window? mr. day. i beg pardon? mr. belin. do you have any independent recollection of this being the same box that you saw in the window, if you don't remember when you initialed it? mr. day. no, sir; except that it was still there in that area and had been dusted on the th. we did dust it on the d. mr. belin. let me ask you this: when you were dusting it were there remains of the dust on there? mr. day. yes, sir. mr. belin. when you put your initials on on the th were the dust remains still there? mr. day. the dust was still there; yes, sir. mr. belin. on all of these boxes, and , and now handing you , was there dust on also? mr. day. all boxes had dust on them when i collected them. mr. belin. were boxes nos. , , and open or closed? mr. day. they were closed and had books in them. mr. belin. did they have tape around them? mr. day. they were sealed with tape. mr. belin. turning to , do you see your name as a means of identification on this box? mr. day. yes, sir; "j. c. day." it also has the name "r. l. studebaker" on it. mr. belin. i see there is an arrow pointing north here, is that correct? mr. day. yes, sir. mr. belin. and the box appears with--it appears to have "top" written on the box as it stands on one end, is that correct? mr. day. yes, sir; that is the top side as it was standing on the floor. mr. belin. now, again turning to exhibit , do you see where box was then? mr. day. it would be the bottom box of the center stack. there are two boxes. mr. belin. there are two boxes, and the upper box is marked "ten rolling readers," and would be below that one? mr. day. yes, sir. mr. belin. that is a reconstructed photo, to the best of your knowledge, as to where the boxes were? mr. day. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. is there any indication on any of these boxes which you could identify as indicating on which box the rifle rested? mr. day. i beg your pardon? mr. mccloy. is there any indication on any of these boxes that could tell you where the rifle rested? mr. day. no, sir. mr. mccloy. when it was fired? mr. day. no, sir; i couldn't find a thing there. mr. belin. i am going to hand you what has been marked commission exhibit and and ask you to state if you know what these are. mr. day. is the right palm of lee harvey oswald's palmprint. is the left palmprint of lee harvey oswald. mr. belin. do you know when these prints were made? mr. day. they were made november , . mr. belin. does your name appear on these? mr. day. yes, sir. mr. belin. with the permission of commissioner mccloy, would it be possible to have xerox copies substituted for these so that the original can go back with lieutenant day? mr. mccloy. yes. mr. belin. as i understand it, these are the last original copies you have of palmprints of lee harvey oswald. mr. day. yes. mr. belin. were you there when these prints were made? mr. day. no, sir. the prints that were made in my presence, which i compared with these, i can state are his, were sent to the fbi. mr. belin. would these be the same prints as shown on commission exhibit and ? mr. day. no, sir. they are still not the originals. they had my name on it when i saw them sign it. but i did compare these with ones i saw made personally of oswald, and i can say this is his left hand, his left palm, and his right palm. mr. belin. so you are saying and are his right and left palms. what about and ? mr. day. is the right palm, and is the left palm of lee harvey oswald. mr. belin. what about , can you state what that is, if you know? mr. day. that is a set of fingerprints, standard set of fingerprints, of lee harvey oswald taken by detective j. b. hicks on november , . mr. belin. you have just examined these with your magnifying glass, is that correct? mr. day. yes, sir. mr. belin. and you so identify these? mr. day. they are the fingerprints of lee harvey oswald, whose palmprints appear in and . mr. belin. lieutenant day, did you ever try to make any ballistic identification of the bullet slug that was removed from the residence of general walker? mr. day. no, sir. i don't do that work. we have a laboratory in dallas that we ask to do that. wait a minute now, you said identification? my answer should be no, sir. mr. belin. i will ask you this. have you ever seen commission exhibit before, if you know? mr. day. yes, sir; i have. mr. belin. could you tell us what is? mr. day. this slug was gotten from the home of former general edwin walker, turtle creek, april , , by detective b. g. brown, one of the officers under my supervision. he brought this in and released it to me. mr. belin. you are reading now from a report that is in your possession, is that correct? mr. day. yes, sir. those are the official records of my office. mr. belin. was that prepared under your supervision? mr. day. yes, sir. mr. belin. in the regular course of your duties at the dallas police department? mr. day. yes, sir. the slug has my name "day" scratched in it. mr. belin. do you know whether or not any ballistic identification was made of this slug with regard to any rifle it may have been fired from? mr. day. no, sir. i released that to the fbi agent b. d. odum on december , , at : p.m. mr. belin. has that ever been back in your possession since that time? mr. day. not since that time. mr. belin. prior to that time do you know whether or not any positive ballistic identifications were made of exhibit with regard to the rifle from which it might have been fired? mr. day. it had not been compared with any rifle, to the best of my knowledge. mr. belin. at this point we would like to offer and introduce in evidence commission exhibits nos. through , inclusive. mr. mccloy. they have all heretofore been identified? mr. belin. yes, they have; and i think is the first one, and if there have been any prior to i would offer to introduce that also. mr. mccloy. they may be admitted. (commission exhibits nos. through inclusive, were received in evidence.) mr. belin. i am also going to introduce and . these are the xerox copies of those cards, of those palmprint cards, that i believe you had, sir. am i correct in that, and according to my records, the next number for introduction of exhibits is . mr. mccloy. they may be admitted. (commission exhibits nos. and were received in evidence.) mr. belin. i am now going to hand you no. and ask you to state if you know what this is. mr. day. yes, sir. this is the rifle found on the sixth floor of the texas school book depository november , . mr. belin. who took that picture? mr. day. i took it myself. mr. belin. when? mr. day. about or : p.m., november , on the fourth floor of the city hall in my office. mr. belin. i am going to now hand you what has been marked as and ask you to state if you know what this is. mr. day. yes, sir. this is a photograph of most of the evidence that was returned to the fbi the second time on november , . it was released to agent vince drain at p.m., november . mr. belin. who took that picture, if you know? mr. day. i beg pardon? mr. belin. who took that picture? mr. day. i took this picture. mr. belin. i am going to now hand you what has been marked as commission exhibit and ask you to state if you know what this is. mr. day. yes, sir; this is a view of the texas school book depository made from about a half block south looking north on houston street on november , . mr. belin. now, returning for the moment to exhibit , do you recognize any items in there as items that you turned over to the fbi? mr. day. all of these items were released to the fbi. mr. belin. which ones are there now? mr. day. there is a shirt. mr. belin. this is the same shirt that has been marked commission exhibit ? mr. day. yes, sir. mr. belin. all right. what else? mr. day. a revolver. mr. belin. did you put any initials on the revolver or not? mr. day. no, sir; i don't think i did. mr. belin. all right. what else? mr. day. a blanket. mr. belin. is that the blanket that has been marked "commission exhibit " here? mr. day. yes, sir. mr. belin. all right. what else? mr. day. a live round. mr. belin. is that the live round that you earlier identified as what captain fritz ejected from the rifle? mr. day. yes, sir. mr. belin. what else? mr. day. two spent hulls, and an envelope in which they were in. mr. belin. those are the ones you have earlier identified, is that correct? mr. day. yes, sir. mr. belin. what else? mr. day. one piece of cardboard with a palmprint on it that has been identified as that of oswald. mr. belin. that is the piece of cardboard that you tore off this cardboard box, the cardboard box being commission exhibit no. , is that correct? mr. day. yes, sir. mr. belin. what else? mr. day. two--correction, one . -caliber slug, and a button off a policeman's uniform. mr. belin. is that slug, do you know where that came from? mr. day. i didn't personally collect that. it was in the stuff that was given to vince drain. mr. belin. all right. anything else, if you know? mr. day. there is a plastic box, i don't remember what was in it, a slip of paper reading "dallas county hospital district," laying with the box, and there is an envelope laying with the live round with information stating that it is a live round from the gun found on the sixth floor of the texas book depository. mr. mccloy. did you refer to the paper sack? mr. day. yes; i didn't mention that. also one homemade paper bag previously identified as the bag found in the southeast corner of the sixth floor of the texas school book depository. mr. mccloy. what is the revolver that you previously mentioned, where did it come from? mr. day. i understand that was the one that was in oswald's possession, reportedly the one used to shoot the officer. mr. belin. you don't have any independent knowledge of that, do you? mr. day. no, sir; i did not collect that. mr. belin. i am going to hand you what has been marked "commission exhibit " and ask you to state if you know what that is. do you have any further comments, by the way, of ? mr. day. i can tell from this what it is. mr. belin. you are looking toward your own inventory and you are pointing to a picture of exhibit ? mr. day. yes; it was a bullet fragment taken from the body of john connally at parkland general hospital in dallas. the slip was in connection with a fragment, the hospital slip previously mentioned. mr. belin. anything else on ? mr. day. that is all that is in the picture. mr. belin. all right. what about exhibit---- mr. day. there was one other article released with this, an envelope containing the three negatives i made of the prints on the side of the magazine housing of that . rifle, which i did not definitely identify as belonging to oswald. mr. belin. anything else on ? mr. day. that is all, sir. mr. belin. what about exhibit ? mr. day. is a photograph looking northeast toward the texas school book depository. this shows elm street at the point at which the president was shot. mr. belin. do you know when that was taken? mr. day. november , , in the afternoon sometime after o'clock. mr. belin. all right. i am going to hand you exhibit and ask you to state if you know what this is. mr. day. is a photograph of the lunchroom area on the second floor of the texas school book depository taken november , . mr. belin. do you know what direction the camera is facing? mr. day. the camera is facing west looking toward the west door of the lunchroom. mr. belin. all right. i'm going to hand you what has been marked "exhibit " and ask you to state if you know what this is. mr. day. that is the outside of the door shown in the picture on , which door---- mr. belin. there appear to be two doors shown on . one door that is open and one door that is closed with the window in it. mr. day. this is outside of the door that is closed with the window in it. this picture looks east, made on the second floor of the texas school book depository from a position near the stairway. mr. belin. that would be the stairway coming---- mr. day. stairway coming down from the third floor. mr. belin. i will hand you what has been marked " " and ask you to state if you know what this is. mr. day. is a photograph of the stairway leading to the third floor from the second floor of the southwest corner of the texas school book depository. make a correction on that previous picture . i stated that was taken from a position of the stairway leading to the third floor. it should read taken from a position of the stairway leading to the first floor. mr. belin. is there any other evidence pertaining to fingerprints or palmprints that you have not discussed? mr. day. i can't think of any at the present time. i believe that pretty well covers my participation in this investigation. mr. belin. is there any other evidence that you can think of pertaining to the rifle that you have not discussed that you can think of at this time? mr. day. not that i can think of. mr. belin. is there any other thing that you did pertaining to the investigation of the assassination of the president that you can think of at this time? mr. day. under my direction they made paraffin casts of the hand of lee harvey oswald in captain fritz' office. mr. belin. this was done under your direction? mr. day. i directed them to make it, and also paraffin casts or just of a piece of paraffin on the left side of the face to see if there were any nitrates there. mr. belin. on the left side or right side of the face? mr. day. right side. mr. belin. do you know what the results of the paraffin tests were? mr. day. the test on the face was negative. mr. belin. had you ever done a paraffin test on a face before? mr. day. no; actually--had it not been for the particular type of case and this particular situation here--we would not have at this time. it was just something that was done to actually keep from someone saying later on, "why didn't you do it?" actually, in my experience there, shooting a rifle with a telescopic sight there would be no chance for nitrates to get way back or on the side of the face from a rifle. mr. belin. well, the chamber, the nature of the chamber of the rifle, would that have anything to do with that? mr. day. yes, sir. mr. belin. in what way? mr. day. a rifle such as that one we are talking about here from the sixth floor of the texas school book depository, in my opinion, would not throw nitrates back to where a man's face was when he is looking through a telescopic sight. mr. belin. well, when you ran these tests you had understood that the man, oswald, had fired a pistol, too, hadn't he? mr. day. yes, sir. mr. belin. would you expect to have any positive tests from a pistol on the cheek? mr. day. i would expect more with a revolver with an open cylinder than i would from a rifle. actually, for most practical purposes, i would not be surprised if there would be no nitrates from a man firing a rifle. mr. belin. what about on the hands? mr. day. even on the hands. it is possible, but it is more likely with a revolver where you have a revolving cylinder and an opening between the cylinder and the actual barrel where the nitrates can come out. mr. mccloy. that was the type of pistol that was used to kill tippit, wasn't it? mr. day. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. did the paraffin show up nitrate? mr. day. yes, sir; nitrates were present on the cast made of oswald's hands. mr. belin. is there anything else, are there any other comments you have with regard to the paraffin test, sir? mr. day. no, sir. mr. belin. you are showing me your report of paraffin findings. is this the same report that was sent into the fbi, if you know? mr. day. i think they were sent a report. this is the report submitted by the laboratory at dallas who first processed this paraffin. later on the fbi did come and want this paraffin, and it was turned over to them, also the can from which this was made. i don't know what purpose they wanted it for. mr. belin. i believe you mentioned that you took a measurement of the area in which the long paper bag was found to show how big an area that was with relation to the easternmost pair of windows on the east side of the building, and the--on the south side of the building rather--and on the southeast corner juncture of the south wall to the east wall. mr. day. yes, sir. mr. belin. all right. handing you what has been marked as "commission exhibit "--you are using another exhibit there---- mr. day. it is the same, it would be the same. i just had my measurements on there, was all. mr. belin. , is this the one that you have here? mr. day. yes, sir. mr. belin. all right. how far would the distance be between the east wall and the east side of that easternmost pipe? mr. day. two feet, seven inches. mr. belin. do you have what the measurements were between the south wall and that box that you tore the piece off of to make the palmprint takeoff? mr. day. yes, sir; it would be - / inches. actually the box was marked " inches." if you will note there are six boards. i thought they were inches wide. on doublechecking i found they were - / inches wide which would make a - / inch difference in six boards. mr. belin. and i believe you have already said that the bag was folded over when it was found, is that correct? mr. day. yes, sir. mr. belin. now, on the picture, , this is the reconstruction of the boxes in the window, is that correct? mr. day. yes, sir. mr. belin. does that represent, to the best of your recollection, the way the boxes were at the time you first came upon the crime scene, if you know? mr. day. it is an approximate location. i may be a little too far from the west to what they actually were when we got there on november . mr. belin. is there any other information you can think of, any facts that you can think of, whether i have asked you or not, that you feel are in any way relevant to the area of inquiry, the assassination of the president, the murder of officer tippit, or anything else? mr. day. i can't think of anything right now. mr. belin. all right. now, i'm going to hand you what has been marked as "commission exhibit ," and ask you to state if you know what this is. mr. day. is a picture of officer m. n. mcdonald, and shows the scratch on the side of his face made somewhere close to p.m., november , , by detective j. m. craft--correction, i believe he is a patrolman, patrolman j. m. craft, who is assigned to identification, to the identification bureau, and did the actual snapping of the shutter. mr. belin. was this picture taken under your supervision? mr. day. yes, sir. mr. belin. i am going to hand you what has been marked "commission exhibit " and ask you to state if you know what this is. mr. day. is a photograph of don ray ables, dallas police department jail clerk, who was on duty, and placed in the showup november--i don't know whether it was the d or d, one of those days, along with lee harvey oswald at the dallas police department showup room. mr. belin. do you know about how tall don ray ables is, if you know? mr. day. he is about ' ", or ", but i would have to get his accurate measurements to get it. in other words, he is not a large man. mr. mccloy. there were more than he in the showup with oswald, which oswald was in, that is, he wasn't the only one in the showup besides oswald? mr. day. i don't think so, but i don't know, sir. mr. mccloy. you weren't present at the showup? mr. day. no, sir. mr. belin. at this time we would offer and introduce into evidence exhibits through . mr. mccloy. they may be admitted. (the items marked commission exhibits nos. through for identification were received in evidence.) mr. belin. any other questions that you have, mr. mccloy? mr. mccloy. on the crime scene, that is, on the sixth floor, did you notice any chicken bones or chicken remnants of a chicken sandwich or lunch or the whereabouts, if you did see them? mr. day. yes, sir; there was a sack of some chicken bones and a bottle brought into the identification bureau. i think i still have that sack and bottle down there. the chicken bones, i finally threw them away that laid around there. in my talking to the men who were working on that floor, november , they stated, one of them stated, he had eaten lunch over there. mr. mccloy. someone other than oswald? mr. day. yes, sir; so i discarded it, or disconnected it with being with oswald. incidentally, oswald's fingerprints were not on the bottle. i checked that. mr. mccloy. they were not on the bottle? mr. day. no, sir. mr. mccloy. did you go on the fifth floor and make any investigation on the fifth floor? mr. day. i was there but i didn't have any photographs taken or do much investigating there. my work was mostly confined to the sixth, second and the first floors. mr. mccloy. i noticed that in the picture you took of the sixth floor window, the picture that had the hulls on the floor, there seemed to be a break in the floor between--against the wall where the wood did not reach the brick of the wall. was that hole, so far as you recall, all the way through from the sixth floor to the fifth floor? mr. day. no, sir; i checked that. a hull could not go down through there. you could see the bottom of it. there was no hull in there. mr. mccloy. i'm not saying there was any hull in there. i was wondering whether that aperture, whatever it was, not related to the hulls, whether that went all the way through to the fifth floor. mr. day. no, sir; i don't think so. i think it was tight there and nothing---- mr. mccloy. the colored man testified he could see air from the fifth floor to the sixth floor. mr. day. i may be wrong, but i did make a search in that area for the hulls and determined none could be in there. as far as from the bottom looking up, i couldn't say. mr. mccloy. i don't think i can think of anything else to ask you, anything else i would like to ask you, lieutenant day. mr. belin. lieutenant day, we want to thank you for your splendid cooperation here. we appreciate your coming up and staying over and staying late tonight, and we know it has taken time on your part. mr. day. i hope i have helped you and not confused you. mr. mccloy. you indicated one thing, lieutenant, that you didn't have quite the proper equipment here tonight to make the comparisons that you might want to make. mr. day. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. did i hear that you were going to stay over and go to the fbi laboratory in the morning? mr. day. well, they are trying to make reservations to leave tonight if they can get them. i do not know whether they can. on that print it would take me some work to do that before i could eliminate all possibility of it not being his print. i feel it is his from what i have seen of it, but before i can take the witness stand and say that is his, i would want to do some more work on it. what it would take, i don't know. i understand that it was identified. what process they used i don't know. mr. mccloy. by someone else, by some other agency? mr. day. yes. mr. mccloy. can you restate again for the record what you can positively identify in terms of fingerprints or palmprints and oswald's---- mr. day. the palmprint on the box he apparently sat on i can definitely say it is his without being in fear of any error. the other, i think it is his, but i couldn't say definitely on a witness stand. mr. mccloy. by the other, you mean the other palmprint? mr. day. the palmprint and that tracer print aside the trigger housing or the magazine housing. mr. mccloy. thank you very much. (whereupon, at : p.m. the president's commission recessed.) _thursday, april , _ testimony of lyndal l. shaneyfelt, robert inman bouck, robert carswell, and winston g. lawson the president's commission met at : a.m. on april , , at maryland avenue ne., washington, d.c. present were chief justice earl warren, chairman; senator john sherman cooper, representative gerald r. ford, john j. mccloy, and allen w. dulles, members. also present were melvin aron eisenberg, assistant counsel; samuel a. stern, assistant counsel; howard p. willens, assistant counsel; charles murray, observer; and dean robert g. storey, special counsel to the attorney general of texas. testimony of lyndal l. shaneyfelt mr. mccloy. do you solemnly swear the testimony you give in this case, this hearing, will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. shaneyfelt. i do. mr. mccloy. you know why we are here? it is to ascertain all the facts and circumstances which seem to be relevant to the assassination of the president and the death of his alleged assassin, and there are certain identifications which i believe you can be helpful to us with, and with that i will just ask you to respond to the questions. mr. eisenberg. mr. shaneyfelt, can you state your full name, please? mr. shaneyfelt. yes, lyndal l. shaneyfelt. (at this point, the chief justice entered the hearing room.) mr. eisenberg. can you give us your position? mr. shaneyfelt. i am a special agent with the federal bureau of investigation, assigned to the fbi laboratory. mr. eisenberg. what unit? mr. shaneyfelt. i am in the document section of the fbi laboratory here in washington. mr. eisenberg. does your work in that section customarily include photographic work as well as written documents? mr. shaneyfelt. that is true. mr. eisenberg. could you briefly give us your qualifications as an expert in photography, mr. shaneyfelt? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; i have been in photographic work since about . i started working with the fbi in . three years prior to this i had worked as a newspaper photographer in hastings, nebr., and on entering the fbi i worked in the photographic section of the fbi for about years before i became a special agent. i became an agent in , spent a year in detroit as a field investigator, and then was returned to the laboratory and assigned as a document examiner. i was also assigned cases involving photographic examinations, because of my extensive experience in photography. i have a b.c.s. degree from southeastern university here in washington. mr. eisenberg. can you estimate the number of photographic examinations you have made? mr. shaneyfelt. this would be just an estimate. i would estimate approximately , between and . i couldn't come any closer than that. mr. eisenberg. have you testified in court on the subject? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; i have. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, may this witness testify as an expert in the area of photography? mr. mccloy. yes; i think he is qualified. mr. eisenberg. mr. shaneyfelt, i now hand you two small photographs which have been already marked "commission exhibit ," and i ask you whether you are familiar with these photographs? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; i am. mr. eisenberg. now, for the record, these photographs appear to show lee harvey oswald in two different poses, and they were found by police officers, following his apprehension, at one of the premises at which he resided. mr. chairman, i would like your permission to mark these photographs "a" and "b" for easy identification; they have already been marked "commission exhibit ." again for the record, there are two poses represented in these photographs. in one the rifle is held--a rifle is held--in front of the body, and in one it is held somewhat above the torso. i am marking the rifle--that photograph in which the weapon is held in front of the body--as a, and the photograph in which the weapon is held somewhat above the body as b. mr. mccloy. when you say above the body, you mean above and to the right side of the body as oswald faces the viewer? mr. eisenberg. yes, sir. mr. shaneyfelt, have you prepared reproductions of exhibit a to show the weapon pictured therein in further detail? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; i have. mr. eisenberg. could you show us those reproductions? did you prepare these yourself, mr. shaneyfelt? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; i did. they were prepared by rephotographing commission exhibit a, to preparing a negative from which i made a variety of prints of different densities to bring out the detail of the rifle. mr. eisenberg. when you say "of different densities," could you explain that in lay terms? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; to try to get greater variation between the light and dark areas of the photograph, or to bring out or enhance the contrast so that the detail is more apparent. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, i would like these photographs admitted as commission exhibit . mr. mccloy. you want to put them all into one exhibit? mr. eisenberg. yes; and i will subnumber them a, b, c, d, e. mr. mccloy. have you identified these sufficiently? mr. eisenberg. yes; i have. mr. mccloy. i wonder whether you have? mr. eisenberg. the witness has identified these as subphotographs of a. there are five photographs, is that correct, mr. shaneyfelt? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. mr. mccloy. different dimensions? mr. eisenberg. two photographs being what size? mr. shaneyfelt. two by inches, and three by inches. (at this point representative ford entered the hearing room.) mr. mccloy. very well, they will be admitted. (commission exhibit no. was marked and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. let the record show i have marked these "exhibits a, b, c, d, e", the two larger photographs being marked "a" and "b," and three smaller photographs being marked "c," "d," and "e." mr. shaneyfelt, i now hand you a rifle, commission exhibit , which for the record i will state is the rifle which was used in the assassination, and i ask you whether you are familiar with this weapon? mr. shaneyfelt. yes. mr. eisenberg. have you prepared a photograph of this weapon, mr. shaneyfelt, showing it in approximately the same manner as it is shown in commission exhibit a, but without it being held by anyone? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. did you prepare this photograph? mr. shaneyfelt. i prepared it myself. mr. eisenberg. and that is an - by -inch photograph, is it? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, may i have this admitted as ? mr. mccloy. it may be admitted. (the photograph referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received into evidence.) mr. eisenberg. have you prepared a simulated photograph showing this weapon, commission exhibit , held in approximately the same pose as it appears to be held in commission exhibit a? mr. shaneyfelt. i have; yes. mr. eisenberg. and that is an - by -inch photograph? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. which you prepared yourself? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; i prepared the photograph myself, having the rifle held in approximately the same position as in exhibit a, and i attempted to duplicate the lighting of the photograph, exhibit a. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, may i have this admitted? mr. mccloy. it may be admitted. (the photograph referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and was received into evidence.) mr. eisenberg. where was this photograph prepared, mr. shaneyfelt? mr. shaneyfelt. this was prepared in the fbi laboratory. mr. eisenberg. was this inside or outside? mr. shaneyfelt. outside. mr. eisenberg. on the roof? mr. shaneyfelt. on the roof of the justice building. mr. eisenberg. i see the head of the individual in the photograph is blacked out. can you explain the reason for that? mr. shaneyfelt. i blanked out the head because it was one of the employees of the fbi, and i felt it was desirable to blank out the head since it was not pertinent. mr. eisenberg. now, mr. shaneyfelt, based upon exhibit a, upon your reproductions of exhibit a, consisting of the exhibits nos. a through e; and upon your photograph of the rifle, exhibit , and your simulation of a, exhibit --have you formed an opinion concerning whether exhibit , the rifle used in the assassination, is the same or similar to the rifle pictured in exhibit a? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; i have. mr. eisenberg. can you give us that opinion? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; i compared the actual rifle with the photograph, exhibit a, and with the photographs that i prepared from exhibit a, as well as the other simulated photograph and the photograph of the rifle, attempting to establish whether or not it could be determined whether it was or was not the same. i found it to be the same general configuration. all appearances were the same. i found no differences. i did not find any really specific peculiarities on which i could base a positive identification to the exclusion of all other rifles of the same general configuration. i did find one notch in the stock at this point that appears very faintly in the photograph, but it is not sufficient to warrant positive identification. mr. eisenberg. when you say "this point," you are pointing to the right side of the weapon, to a point approximately to inches in front of the bolt when the bolt is turned down--is that correct? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. mr. shaneyfelt, looking at this commission exhibit , the weapon, i see that the stock is curved downward, about inches--at a point approximately inches--from the butt of the weapon, and that it then recurves upward at an angle of approximately ° to the plane of the forepart of the butt--is that correct? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. now, i will hand you commission exhibits a through e, and i will ask you to select from those exhibits the photograph which best brings out the various details of the weapon. mr. shaneyfelt. i believe that the contour of the stock is best shown in commission exhibit e. mr. eisenberg. now, could you take---- mr. mccloy. is that better shown than in the larger pictures? mr. shaneyfelt. i believe it is; yes. mr. eisenberg. could you take a marking pencil, mr. shaneyfelt, and circle the point at which the curve and recurve appear to show, and mark that circle with an a? mr. shaneyfelt. yes. mr. eisenberg. you circled a point which is marked predominantly by a highlight, is that correct? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. now, without tampering with the original, a, i wonder whether you could show to the commissioners the highlight as it appears on the original photograph? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; the highlight is right at that point there, the bright spot at that point. mr. mccloy. i think i might say for the record, i don't believe you identified the place where these photographs were purported to be sited. as i understand it these are from the neely residence? mr. eisenberg. no, sir; i think they were located in the paine garage. the neely residence---- mr. mccloy. the photographs were located in the paine garage. i am talking about the site of the photograph. mr. eisenberg. yes, sir; i think we will show that with independent testimony. mr. mccloy. in the garden of the neely residence. mr. eisenberg. mr. shaneyfelt, i will hand you exhibits and , which are the pictures of the rifle and the simulated picture approximating a, and i will ask you to again mark with a circle designated a the curve and recurve of the stock of . mr. shaneyfelt. here. mr. eisenberg. could you compare the manner in which the curve and recurve marked "a" appears on these photographs with the manner in which it appears on , the photograph you have-- e, the photograph you circled earlier? mr. shaneyfelt. yes. at a point approximately to inches from the base of the stock, where the stock curves downward, there is a nob formed, and on that nob there is a strong highlight which appears in photograph e, and in the simulated photograph, and the photograph of the rifle. the actual stock curves slightly around that highlight, and then recurves back up toward the bolt, and this is visible in exhibit e, and in the simulated photographs and . mr. eisenberg. so again in and the recurve appears primarily as a highlight; is that correct? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. that is the most outstanding point. mr. eisenberg. i also observe, mr. shaneyfelt, the telescopic sight on exhibit , the weapon. referring again to e, your reproduction, which shows somewhat greater detail because of the contrast, could you circle the telescopic sight appearing in that picture, and mark it "b"? mr. shaneyfelt. right here. mr. eisenberg. i wonder whether you could again show to the commissioners the telescopic sight on the original a? mr. shaneyfelt. yes. along that area, just at the base of the hand. it runs right across from this area to the base of the hand below the rifle and above the bolt. mr. mccloy. it is quite apparent, isn't it? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; it is quite apparent. mr. eisenberg. now, mr. shaneyfelt, again referring to e, could you circle the end of the weapon, the end of the barrel of the weapon, and mark it "c"? mr. shaneyfelt. here. mr. eisenberg. now, towards the upper right of the point you have marked as the end of the weapon there is a little mark of some type--right near the point which you have marked "c." is that mark part of the end of the weapon? mr. shaneyfelt. no; i interpret that mark as a shadow on the building, a slight shadow on the building. mr. eisenberg. just to make that clear, could you draw an arrow within your circle pointing to the end of the weapon? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; i have done it. mr. eisenberg. now, mr. shaneyfelt, i hand you a negative which, for the record, appears to be a negative of b, which is the photograph showing the weapon held slightly above and to the right, and i ask you if you are familiar with this negative? mr. shaneyfelt. yes, i am. mr. eisenberg. mr. shaneyfelt, have you examined this negative to determine whether the picture b is in fact a print made directly or indirectly from the negative? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. i have examined it for that purpose and determined that exhibit b is a print from this negative. mr. eisenberg. may i have this negative introduced into evidence as exhibit ? mr. mccloy. have you any other identification as to this negative as to where it was found? mr. eisenberg. yes; for the record only, nothing that this witness can testify to---- mr. mccloy. state for the record where it was found. mr. eisenberg. for the record, this was also found at one of oswald's residences, i believe the paine address at which marina was staying at the time oswald was apprehended. mr. mccloy. this will be proved? mr. eisenberg. this will be proved separately. the chairman. will this negative deteriorate as time goes on? mr. shaneyfelt. no. the chairman. it will not? mr. shaneyfelt. it should not. the chairman. yes. mr. shaneyfelt. normally this depends on the processing, how well it has been processed and how well it has been fixed and washed. if it were going to deteriorate it would have begun by now. the chairman. i see--and it has not yet begun? mr. shaneyfelt. it has not begun. there is no indication that there will be any extensive deterioration. representative ford. have we shown any place in the record that that print or a negative came from a camera---- mr. eisenberg. that is what i was going to proceed to do, sir. mr. chairman, may we have this admitted as exhibit ? mr. mccloy. admitted. (commission exhibit no. was marked and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. i asked you before whether you could say whether this negative, which is now , had been used directly or indirectly to make the print b? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. could you say whether it had been used either directly or indirectly? mr. shaneyfelt. it is my opinion that it was used directly to make the print. however, i cannot specifically eliminate the possibility of an internegative or the possibility of this photograph having been copied, a negative made by copying a photograph similar to this from which this print was made. i think this is highly unlikely, because if this were the result of a copied negative, there would normally be evidence that i could detect, such as a loss of detail and imperfections that show up due to this added process. although a very expertly done rephotographing and reprinting cannot positively be eliminated, i am reasonably sure it was made directly from the negative. mr. eisenberg. but at any rate if it was not made directly it was made indirectly? the only process that could have intervened was a rephotographing of the photograph and making a negative and then a new print? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. mr. shaneyfelt, i now hand you an imperial reflex duo lens camera. let me state for the record, that this camera was turned over to the fbi by robert oswald, the brother of lee harvey oswald, on february , . robert oswald identified the camera as having belonged to lee oswald and stated that he, robert, had obtained it from the paine residence in december , several weeks after the assassination. on february , , marina was given the camera and she identified it as the one which she had used to take the pictures a and b. mr. shaneyfelt, are you familiar with this camera? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; i am. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, may i have this admitted as ? mr. mccloy. it may be admitted. (commission exhibit no. was marked and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. when did you receive the camera, mr. shaneyfelt? mr. shaneyfelt. it was--i can't pinpoint the date exactly, i don't have the notes here for that. it was, i would say, the latter part of february, not too long after it had been recovered on february . mr. eisenberg. was it in working order when you received it? mr. shaneyfelt. no; it had been slightly damaged. mr. eisenberg. could you explain that? mr. shaneyfelt. in order to be able to make a photograph with the camera, i had to make slight repairs to the shutter lever, which had been bent. i straightened it and cleaned the lens in order to remove the dirt which had accumulated. these were the only things that had to be done before it was usable to make pictures with it. mr. eisenberg. did you clean the inside or the outside of the lens? mr. shaneyfelt. the outside of the lens. mr. eisenberg. and the shutter lever you are referring to is the little red-tipped lever protruding at the outside of the camera? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. what did you do with it exactly? mr. shaneyfelt. i bent it out straight. it was bent over. mr. eisenberg. could a layman have performed these repairs? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; he could have. mr. eisenberg. how would you characterize this camera in terms of expense, mr. shaneyfelt? mr. shaneyfelt. it is a relatively inexpensive camera. it is what we refer to as a fixed-focus box-type camera. a simple box-type camera with a simple one-shutter speed and no focusing ability, fixed focus. mr. eisenberg. do you know where the camera was made? mr. shaneyfelt. it was made in the united states. at the base of the camera it has the name imperial reflex, made in u.s.a., on the front, below the lens. mr. eisenberg. mr. shaneyfelt, did you compare the negative, exhibit , with the camera, exhibit , to determine whether the negative had been taken in that camera to the exclusion of all other cameras? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; i did. mr. eisenberg. what conclusion did you come to? mr. shaneyfelt. i reached the conclusion that the negative, which is commission exhibit , was exposed in the camera, commission exhibit , and no other camera. mr. eisenberg. can you explain how you were able to arrive at such a conclusion? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; i can. in order to make an examination of this type, it is necessary to make a negative with the camera, using the camera, because the examination is based on the aperture at the back of the camera, at the film plane. mr. eisenberg. have you prepared a photograph of that aperture at the film plane? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; i have an enlarged photograph of that aperture, that i made so that it would better show the back of the camera, with the back removed to show the film plane opening or aperture. mr. eisenberg. did you take this photograph of the back of the camera yourself, mr. shaneyfelt? mr. shaneyfelt. it was made under my supervision. mr. eisenberg. may i have this admitted as ? mr, mccloy. it may be admitted. (commission exhibit no. was marked and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. what is the enlargement here, by the way? mr. shaneyfelt. approximately two and a half times. mr. eisenberg. now, having reference to the chart, mr. shaneyfelt, could you explain it in a little more detail, the basis of your examination? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; the basis of the examination was a close microscopic study of the negative made in the camera to study the shadowgraph that is made of the edge of the aperture. as the film is placed across the aperture of the camera, and the shutter is opened, light comes through and exposes the film only in the opening within the edges. where the film is out over the edges of the aperture it is not exposed, and your result is an exposed negative with a clear edge, and on the negative then, the edges of that exposure of the photograph, are actually shadowgraphs of the edges of the aperture. mr. eisenberg. could you circle or mark with arrows the edges you are referring to as "these edges" or "this edge," that is, the edges of the aperture opening at the plane of the film? mr. shaneyfelt. yes. representative ford. this would be true in every picture taken? mr. shaneyfelt. that would be true of every picture taken and is true of virtually every camera--every roll-film type camera. it would not be true of a press-type camera where the film is loaded into separate holders; then the holder becomes the thing that will leave identifying characteristics. on any mm. or leica camera, roll-film camera, box cameras of all types, having an arrangement, where the film goes across an opening leaving an exposed area at the aperture and unexposed area around the aperture, this would be true. mr. eisenberg. when you say "virtually every camera" you are including every type of camera with this type of aperture? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; i would include every camera with this type of film arrangement and aperture. mr. eisenberg. you held up a negative before---- the chairman. just a moment, gentlemen, you will excuse me, i must go over to the court now. you will be able to proceed the rest of the day, will you? fine. i will be back as soon as i finish. (at this point the chief justice left the hearing room.) mr. eisenberg. mr. shaneyfelt, you were holding up a negative which appears to be a negative of a simulated photograph you showed us before, exhibit . is it such a negative? mr. shaneyfelt. it is true. that is the negative from which that exhibit was made. the negative was exposed in the camera which is marked commission exhibit no. . i exposed it myself. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, may i have this negative admitted as ? mr. mccloy. it may be admitted. that is the negative from which that exhibit was made? mr. shaneyfelt. yes. (commission exhibit no. was marked and received in evidence.) mr. mccloy. and you took that picture? mr. shaneyfelt. i took that picture myself. representative ford. is this a recognized technique or procedure used in or among experts such as yourself? mr. shaneyfelt. yes. we have used this technique of camera identification with film on several occasions. it doesn't arise too often. as it normally arises, the majority of examinations that i have made in this connection are the identification of a camera that has been stolen and the serial number removed so that it can't be identified, the owner cannot identify it. we then take the owner's film and the camera that has been recovered and make this examination and determine that this is in fact the camera that the owner's film was exposed in, thereby showing ownership. so, it is a recognized technique, we do it regularly. mr. eisenberg. and you have performed such examinations yourself, mr. shaneyfelt? mr. shaneyfelt. yes. mr. eisenberg. mr. shaneyfelt, what is the basis of your statement, the theoretical basis of your statement, that every camera with this type of back aperture arrangement is unique in the characteristics of the shadowgraph it makes on the negative? mr. shaneyfelt. it is because of the minute variations that even two cameras from the same mold will have. additional handwork on cameras, or filing the edges where a little bit of plastic or a little bit of metal stays on, make individual characteristics apart from those that would be general characteristics on all of them from the same mold. in addition, as the film moves across the camera and it is used for a considerable length of time, dirt and debris tend to accumulate a little--or if the aperture is painted, little lumps in the paint will make little bumps along that edge that would make that then individually different from every other camera. mr. eisenberg. is this similar then to toolmark identification? mr. shaneyfelt. very similar, yes. mr. eisenberg. have you prepared a chart on which you have illustrated some of the more prominent points which led you to your identification, mr. shaneyfelt? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; i have. mr. eisenberg. now, this chart shows on the left a copy of your simulated picture number and on the right a copy of the picture b, is that correct? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. and you prepared this chart yourself? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; i did. mr. eisenberg. may i have this admitted as , mr. chairman? mr. mccloy. it may be admitted. (commission exhibit no. was marked and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. before we get to this chart, i wonder whether you could take the negative itself, that is, exhibit , and place it over the camera, exhibit , so that the commissioners can see how it runs across these--across the sides of the aperture you have been discussing? mr. shaneyfelt. yes. i might state that this film at the time it is put in the camera is in a long strip, and at the time of processing it is cut apart into separate negatives. there is an unexposed area between each exposure, and they are cut apart for printing and storage and returning. so that then this would be in a long strip of film--the camera being held in this position, which is the normal position for taking a photograph. mr. eisenberg. and that is upright? mr. shaneyfelt. upright--will give you an image which on the film is upside down because of the light reflecting from the face, going through the lens and going down here; so this negative, commission exhibit , would have been on the film plane in this manner at the time the exposure was made. the blackened area that you see would be the area that was exposed, and because of the aperture frame, the clear area around the edge was not exposed. mr. mccloy. yes. mr. shaneyfelt. and this edge between the dark and the light then becomes the shadowgraph of this aperture of the camera. mr. eisenberg. your commission exhibit illustrates that shadowgraph, or actually shows that shadowgraph, mr. shaneyfelt? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct, the charts were printed to show the entire negative and reproduce the shadowgraphs of commission exhibit and commission exhibit . mr. eisenberg. could you refer now to that chart? mr. shaneyfelt. yes, sir. referring to the chart then, the examination was made by comparing the edges, not only for size but general contour, and i have marked with numbers from through some of the more outstanding points of identification. the eight points are not all that accounted for the identification. the identification is based on the fact that not only those eight points but every place else is the same on both negatives. mr. eisenberg. and the contours are also the same? mr. shaneyfelt. the contours are the same, yes. mr. eisenberg. so you have taken these eight points for demonstrative purposes? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. rather than as being actually what you rested your identification on, is that correct? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. point no. which is in the lower right hand corner, as you view the picture of the chart---- mr. mccloy. lower left-hand corner? mr. eisenberg. as you view it, lower left hand? mr. shaneyfelt. as you view it, lower left hand of both of the charts, shows a notch that makes the shadowgraph other than a straight line. representative ford. this is very clear. mr. shaneyfelt. this appears the same in both charts. point no. is another similar notch except that it is a double one, and the little notches are smaller. this again is the same in both charts. point no. is more of an indentation, a slight curvature where the edge curves out a little and back in toward the corner. it is not as pronounced a dent. point no. is only visible by looking at the chart in this direction because---- mr. eisenberg. this direction being from left to right as you look? mr. shaneyfelt. left to right, because although this line looks straight it actually dips down and back up again. mr. eisenberg. "this line" is the line at the top of that exhibit? mr. shaneyfelt. the line of the shadowgraph at the top of the photograph. representative ford. that is point no. ? mr. shaneyfelt. four. point no. again is a slight dent or bulge in the edge and shows in both charts. no. is a more shallow and wide indentation along the edge. point no. is again the same type of a characteristic as the others, but a little different shape. point no. is a little fragment of bakelite or debris extending out from the edge, that shows in both of the charts in the same manner. in addition the corner at eight tends to curve in towards the picture as it approaches the corner, there tends to be a curvature in and not a nice neat square corner. in addition, between points and there is a very definite s-curve where the bakelite from which the camera is made apparently warped slightly making this s-curve, and this is apparent in both charts. again, more apparent as you hold the photograph flat and look down the line. mr. eisenberg. now, the margins of the shadowgraph in the right-hand side of the chart, which is based upon b, look somewhat larger than the margins on the left-hand side. could you explain that? mr. shaneyfelt. that was merely a matter of masking during the printing process. mr. eisenberg. that is to say it is the interior which is crucial rather than the width of the margin? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. mr. mccloy. this mark along the bottom appears in one. how do you explain that? mr. eisenberg. mr. mccloy is pointing to a mark along the right-hand side, a white mark along the bottom of the shadowgraph. mr. shaneyfelt. yes; that is the cut edge of the negative, where this particular negative has been cut very close to the shadowgraph line and this then appears as a white line along the chart and represents the actual edge of the negative. the other three edges of that negative and all four edges of the other negative do not show in the photograph. mr. eisenberg. was this chart actually prepared by use of exhibits--by the negatives, exhibits and , mr. shaneyfelt? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; i made the charts directly from those negatives. mr. eisenberg. approximately what is the enlargement here? mr. shaneyfelt. approximately eight times. mr. eisenberg. now, can you explain why--eight times? mr. shaneyfelt. six to eight, it is in that area. mr. eisenberg. can you explain why the enlargement of b is haloed with a white, light halo? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; the reason for that was to print the photograph so that it would be clearly a photograph of the negative and show the individual in the picture but not print too dark around the outside edges to give the best possible reproduction of the shadowgraph. mr. eisenberg. now, captain fritz of the dallas police has stated that in his interrogations, oswald--lee harvey oswald--stated, in effect, that while the face in exhibit a was his face, the rest of the picture was not of him--this is, that it was a composite of some type. have you examined a and b to determine whether either or both are composite pictures? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; i have. mr. eisenberg. and have you--can you give us your conclusion on that question? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; it is my opinion that they are not composites. again with very, very minor reservation, because i cannot entirely eliminate an extremely expert composite. i have examined many composite photographs, and there is always an inconsistency, either in lighting of the portion that is added, or the configuration indicating a different lens used for the part that was added to the original photograph, things many times that you can't point to and say this is a characteristic, or that is a characteristic, but they have definite variations that are not consistent throughout the picture. i found no such characteristics in this picture. in addition, with a composite it is always necessary to make a print that you then make a pasteup of. in this instance paste the face in, and rephotograph it, and then retouch out the area where the head was cut out, which would leave a characteristic that would be retouched out on the negative and then that would be printed. normally, this retouching can be seen under magnification in the resulting composite--points can be seen where the edge of the head had been added and it hadn't been entirely retouched out. this can nearly always be detected under magnification. i found no such characteristics in these pictures. representative ford. did you use the technique of magnification in your analysis? mr. shaneyfelt. yes. in addition, in this instance regarding commission exhibit b which i have just stated, i have identified as being photographed or exposed in the camera which is exhibit , for this to be a composite, they would have had to make a picture of the background with an individual standing there, and then substitute the face, and retouch it and then possibly rephotograph it and retouch that negative, and make a print, and then photograph it with this camera, which is commission exhibit , in order to have this negative which we have identified with the camera, and is commission exhibit . this to me is beyond reasonable doubt, it just doesn't seem that it would be at all possible, in this particular photograph. mr. eisenberg. mr. shaneyfelt, did you attempt to determine whether a had been photographed through the camera, commission exhibit ? mr. shaneyfelt. no; i did not, because in order to make an examination to determine whether a photograph is made with a particular camera, you must have the negative or you must have a print of the negative that shows that shadowgraph area, and commission exhibit a does not show that shadowgraph area. therefore, no comparison could be made. it is not possible. mr. eisenberg. does the shadowgraph area show on b? mr. shaneyfelt. no; it does not. mr. eisenberg. why does it not show on either a or b? m. shaneyfelt. because they are printed in a normal processing procedure, where this area is normally blocked out to give a nice white border and make the picture a little more artistic. in the printing process, masks are placed over the area, or the shadowgraph, in order to cover it up, and the resulting print is a photograph with a nice white border. mr. eisenberg. so that you have to have the negative to make the kind of identification you have made for us earlier? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. looking at b, are the observable characteristics of the weapon pictured in this picture--shown in this picture--similar to the observable characteristics of exhibit , the weapon used in the assassination? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; they are less apparent in this photograph because it is a photograph of the bottom, or the base of the rifle, the bottom of the rifle along the trigger-guard area, but it does show this bottom of the rifle in that photograph. mr. eisenberg. looking at a and b, do the lighting conditions seem to have been similar? mr. shaneyfelt. they are consistent, entirely consistent, in both photographs, the lighting on the face is the same, the lighting on the background is identical, there appear to be no major differences or no significant differences. mr. eisenberg. now, i would like to draw your attention for a moment to this sling on exhibit , and i would like to state for the record that this sling is not thought to be actually a rifle sling, but some type of homemade sling, that is, the firearms expert has so testified. does this sling appear in either commission exhibits a or b? mr. shaneyfelt. it is my opinion that it does not. commission exhibit a has such a small portion of the sling showing that it--you cannot establish that it is or is not the same sling that is presently on the rifle. however, commission exhibit b does show the sling, since it shows the bottom of the rifle, and i find it to be different from the sling that is presently on the rifle. it has the appearance of being a piece of rope that is tied at both ends, rather than a leather sling, and it is my opinion that it is a different sling than is presently on the rifle. mr. eisenberg. just again a homemade simulated sling, is that it? mr. shaneyfelt. it has that appearance, yes. mr. eisenberg. you testified that you have a much smaller view of the sling, or what passes for a sling, on a than on b. is the sling or simulated sling on a, that portion of it which is visible, consistent with the sling on b? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; it is entirely consistent. mr. eisenberg. also looks like a piece of rope, is that it? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; it has that appearance. representative ford. can you tell from a negative about when it was, the picture was taken, or can you develop any time from that? mr. shaneyfelt. it is possible on some negatives. in this instance it is not. on some negatives there is a numbering system along the edge that is coded by the company that indicates manufacturing date, approximate manufacturing date, and it is usually by year, so that you could state that a film was coded by the company in , therefore, it could not have been used prior to . this is about as far as one can go in the establishment of time that a picture was taken from the actual film. this cannot be done in this instance. representative ford. i notice on some prints which are now developed commercially that they have a date on the edge. mr. shaneyfelt. yes. representative ford. is this a universal practice now? mr. shaneyfelt. no; this varies with the different processors. it is used by the large companies. i believe eastman kodak uses it. your larger processing companies use it, but your smaller, maybe one-man shop or small photographic shop will probably not use it. it is at the discretion of the shop actually. representative ford. can you tell from a print which has been developed which processing plant processed that print? mr. shaneyfelt. not without some specific stamp of the processing company on it. mr. eisenberg. i think we should add here for the record that the sling which is presently on the rifle is, as any other sling, a removable sling, and not one that is fixed into the rifle. mr. mccloy. it seems to me that this band here in exhibit is a, might very well be a reproduction of this, this lighter side of this rather enlarged leather part of the sling. it seems to be just about the same length. representative ford. that is, what is on the, rifle. mr. mccloy. which is on the rifle. i wonder, and here it is again in commission exhibit a-- a has that--of which it is an enlargement. isn't it possible that is a reproduction of that leather sling? mr. shaneyfelt. it could be possible. mr. mccloy. this is not a string by any means. mr. shaneyfelt. that is true; it is broader. i get the impression by this shadow at the top, closest to the rifle, just below the bolt, there is a faint shadow there that would indicate a double string or rope, and it then becomes narrower as you are looking at the edge of two ropes lying together. on the exhibit b i get the same interpretation of a double-rope effect, partly because of the knot-tying and so on, and you see the shadow between the strands slightly in some areas, and, as i stated before, i cannot, because of the limited amount of that showing, say that it is not the sling. i find it more consistent with the sling showing in exhibit b, which is very definitely---- mr. mccloy. a bowknot-- b seems to have a knot at the swivels. mr. shaneyfelt. yes. mr. mccloy. which doesn't appear on the rifle now. mr. eisenberg. mr. shaneyfelt, i now hand you the cover of life magazine for february , , which consists of a photograph quite similar to exhibit a, and i ask you whether you are familiar with this photographic cover? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; i am. mr. eisenberg. may i have this introduced, mr. chairman, as ? mr. mccloy. it may be admitted. (commission exhibit no. was marked and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. have you compared exhibit with commission exhibit a? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; i have. mr. eisenberg. what is your conclusion on the basis of that comparison? mr. shaneyfelt. it is my opinion that it is the same picture reproduced on the front of life magazine, which is commission exhibit . mr. eisenberg. does commission exhibit appear to have been retouched in any significant way? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; it does. mr. eisenberg. could you show the commission that retouching? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; i could. i might state that it has been my experience in the field of reproduction of photographs for publication, in which a halftone screen is made from which the photograph is then printed, it is normal procedure, and was at the time i worked for a newspaper, to retouch the photograph to intensify highlights, take out undesirable shadows, generally enhance the picture by retouching the photograph so that when it is then made into a halftone strip pattern for reproduction by printing, this retouching, if it is done well, does not show as retouching but appears to be a part of the original photograph. this retouching is done either by brush or by airbrush, which is a device for spraying gray or shades of gray or black, onto the photograph. i point to the area between the legs of the individual on life magazine. mr. eisenberg. could you circle that and mark it a on exhibit ? mr. shaneyfelt. suppose i use arrows. mr. eisenberg. oh, sure. mr. shaneyfelt. on exhibit b, there is a shadow between the individual's legs. mr. eisenberg. could you mark that a? mr. shaneyfelt. i will mark that a. in that same area of the photograph on exhibit , that dark shadow has been removed in this area, i will mark that a. mr. eisenberg. it appears there is a continuous fence slat there, where none appears---- mr. shaneyfelt. yes; the shadow has been removed. lower down in that same area of the legs, near the calf of the leg, again, and i will mark that b, the shadow---- mr. eisenberg. b on ? mr. shaneyfelt. ; has been softened but not entirely eliminated. that same area is marked b on commission exhibit b. mr. eisenberg. has the weapon been retouched? mr. shaneyfelt. the weapon has been retouched by placing a highlight along the stock almost up to the end of the bolt. the highlight is brushed right across the top of the highlight that we have previously discussed at the nob or the curvature of the stock where it goes down and then back up to the curve. mr. eisenberg. could you put an arrow pointing to the brushed-in highlight and mark it c? mr. shaneyfelt. yes. mr. eisenberg. can you put an arrow pointing to the original highlight and mark it d; both on and b? you had earlier marked with a circle e at point a, showing the highlight as it appears in a? mr. shaneyfelt. of course, this highlight does not appear in that same area of commission exhibit b. mr. eisenberg. you mean the highlight marked c on ? mr. shaneyfelt. yes. mr. eisenberg. looking at the photograph, at the weapon, the stock appears to be straight, which does not correspond to the exhibit . as i understand your testimony, this is simply a retouching; this effect of a straight stock is simply achieved by retouching the photograph or doctoring it? mr. shaneyfelt. that is my opinion. i would refer to it as retouching rather than doctoring, because what has been done has been retouched, and doctoring infers an attempt to disguise. mr. eisenberg. i didn't mean to imply such a thing--but retouched, then? mr. shaneyfelt. yes. mr. eisenberg. and the actual highlight showing the curve and recurve still appears as point d? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. can you circle--do you see a telescopic sight on the life cover of ? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; i do. mr. eisenberg. could you draw an arrow marking that e? would it have been possible to retouch the photograph so that the telescopic sight does not appear? mr. shaneyfelt. oh, yes; that is possible. with a halftone process--it is possible to retouch, and then the halftone process destroys the retouching characteristics and makes it appear as a normal photograph rather than a retouched photograph. mr. eisenberg. and again, based upon your newspaper experience and your experience as a photographer generally, could you state the possible purpose of such retouching? mr. shaneyfelt. the purpose of the retouching in reproduction work is merely to enhance the detail so that it will not be lost in the engraving process. mr. eisenberg. when you say "enhance the detail," why would a stock be retouched so as not only to enhance the detail, but actually to change the apparent configuration? could you conceive of any reason for that? mr. shaneyfelt. i think the reason that the stock was retouched straight in the photograph on life magazine, and my interpretation would be that the individual retouching it does not have a familiarity with rifles and did not realize there was curvature there, and in doing it just made a straight-line highlight without even considering whether that curved or not. there was curvature in that area which is not readily apparent--it is quite indistinct--and i think it was just made without realizing that there was curvature there. mr. eisenberg. that is, the individual might have thought he was actually enhancing detail rather than putting in detail which was not present in the original? mr. shaneyfelt. yes. mr. eisenberg. is there anything else you would like to point out in this photograph, exhibit ? mr. shaneyfelt. there is other retouching at the shoulder, to the left of the photograph as we view it; that area has had some retouching of the highlights. along the barrel of the gun, or the stock of the gun above the hand, there is retouching, a little highlight enhancement there. these are all generally consistent with the type of retouching that we have previously discussed and i have previously pointed out. representative ford. i am not clear why they would retouch, from a photographic point of view. mr. shaneyfelt. they retouch because in the halftone process there is a loss of detail, and had they not retouched this photograph, had they not put the highlight along the rifle stock, then you would only have seen a black area. they were afraid you would only see a black area and you wouldn't get the definition here of the rifle. you lose the detail, and you would lose the view of the rifle. you wouldn't see the rifle there because this line would be lost. the same way along here. this one very definitely, had they not retouched it, it would have blended in and been a continuous tone of dark gray all across there. representative ford. that is--up here--that is, above the hand on the stock? mr. shaneyfelt. yes. mr. eisenberg. when you said a highlight "along the rifle stock," you actually meant on top, above the rifle stock? mr. shaneyfelt. the upper edge. mr. eisenberg. is it the upper edge, or is it a place that does not correspond to the rifle stock? mr. shaneyfelt. it is an edge along the rifle stock that corresponds. i am speaking now of the highlight above the hand. mr. eisenberg. no; you said before, in describing the highlight which you can see, you said they drew a highlight "along" the rifle--the rifle stock. actually it was drawn, as i understand it, considerably above the edge of the actual rifle stock? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; that is true. mr. eisenberg. have you used this technique yourself? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; i have done retouching of photographs for halftones; yes. mr. eisenberg. when you said before that this retouching is done by airbrush or brush, what medium is used in the brush or airbrush to achieve the effect? mr. shaneyfelt. it is a water-soluble pigment, and it is available in varying shades of from white to black; it is available in different shades of gray tones, so that you could actually match the gray tone of the picture--since in these instances we are dealing entirely with gray, shades of gray--and you select a gray that is not too prominent that would give you a highlight that would look normal. mr. eisenberg. so that the negative is painted, so to speak? mr. shaneyfelt. the actual photograph is painted. mr. eisenberg. the photograph is painted. now, would there be any conceivable reason for eliminating in a retouching the telescopic sight? mr. shaneyfelt. the only reason again would be to enhance the detail. i cannot determine from commission exhibit whether there was retouching around the stock. there are indications that there is some retouching--i mean around the telescopic sight. it appears to me they did do some retouching around the telescopic sight which we have marked as point e on commission exhibit . mr. eisenberg. without specific reference to , might an individual without experience in rifles have thought that the detail corresponding to the telescopic sight was extraneous detail, and blocked it out? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; it could be done. mr. eisenberg. i have no further questions, mr. chairman. mr. mccloy. do you have anything? representative ford. no further questions. mr. mccloy. it may be because i am, and i am sure it is, because of my ignorance in regard to this composition of photographs, but the negative of which we have a copy is that from which this photograph was taken; isn't that right? [referring to exhibit a.] mr. shaneyfelt. we do not have the negative of this photograph. mr. mccloy. you have the negative of this? [referring to exhibit b] mr. shaneyfelt. we have the negative of b. mr. mccloy. you have the negative of b. that negative in itself shows no doctoring or composition at all? mr. shaneyfelt. it shows absolutely no doctoring or composition. mr. mccloy. so that the only composition that could have been made would have been in this process which you have described of picture on picture and negative and then photographing? mr. shaneyfelt. and then finally rephotographing with this camera. mr. mccloy. rephotographing with this camera, this very camera? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct, and this then, to me, becomes in the realm of the impossible. mr. mccloy. yes. there is nothing in exhibit that, to you, insinuates any sinister type of touching up? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. this is entirely innocent retouching, completely normal operation for a newspaper cut or a magazine reproduction. mr. mccloy. i think i have no other questions. mr. eisenberg. just two other questions. is there anything in the negative of b--that is, commission exhibit --to indicate whether it was developed commercially or not commercially? mr. shaneyfelt. no; i cannot determine that from the negative. mr. eisenberg. and finally, i hand you a page from that same issue of life, the issue of february , , page , which has a photograph similar to the cover photograph, and i ask you whether this photograph appearing on page appears to you to be the same as the photograph used on the cover? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; it appears to be the same photograph. mr. eisenberg. does the retouching appear to be the same in both? mr. shaneyfelt. the retouching is consistent; yes. it appears to be slightly clearer in the photograph on page ; the highlight along the stock is sharper and more crisp and in more detail. mr. eisenberg. again you say "highlight along the stock." mr. shaneyfelt. along the stock. mr. eisenberg. you mean the highlight introduced by the retoucher? mr. shaneyfelt. yes. and the scope appears to be much clearer in the photograph on page than the photograph on the front cover, which is exhibit , and is much clearer than is apparent in the photograph a. mr. eisenberg. can you account for that? mr. shaneyfelt. my only explanation would be retouching, from retouching around the scope. the primary reason for the additional clarity between the entire photograph, without specific reference to the scope, the clarity that i mentioned in the entire photograph on page as compared with the cover is, i believe, basically the fact that the cover is so enlarged. there is a tendency on big enlargements to separate the detail out by enlargement so it appears not as clear, so a smaller picture will sometimes look clearer than one of the same picture that has been enlarged. this would account for some of the additional detail and more distinct sharpness in the photograph. mr. eisenberg. may this photograph on page be introduced as ? mr. mccloy. it may be admitted. (commission exhibit no. was marked and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. one final question: can you compare the sharpness of the scope on exhibit with the sharpness on exhibit e, one of the reproductions you prepared? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; there is the same difference in sharpness between the photograph on commission exhibit , which is page of life magazine, and the photograph which i made from the government's exhibit a, which is commission exhibit e. again this difference in sharpness, i believe is due to retouching in part, and in part to the picture in life magazine being smaller, and thereby the detail is not spread out so much. it is a combination of retouching of the photograph and size. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, this concludes my examination. mr. mccloy. i am further interested as you look at this rifle as it lies on the table you can see the highlight, even without any photograph, very clearly. the shine centers on the curvature of the stock. it is quite interesting. mr. shaneyfelt. that is very apparent on exhibit also, where you get the duplication of the lighting. this nob tends to reflect more light. mr. mccloy. it is obvious that it is right up there as a conspicuous highlight. i didn't realize that it was so indicative of the curve of the stock of the rifle. thank you very much indeed for your cooperation and very enlightening and very interesting testimony. mr. shaneyfelt. thank you. (recess.) testimony of robert inman bouck mr. mccloy. mr. bouck, you know the purpose for which you are here? mr. bouck. yes, i do. mr. mccloy. and we are very happy to have you help us to acquit ourselves of our responsibility here in determining all of the relevant circumstances in connection with the assassination of the president. i believe you are going to give us something of the routine by which presidents are protected? mr. bouck. yes. mr. mccloy. i will ask you to rise and hold up your right hand. do you solemnly swear the testimony you give in this hearing will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. bouck. i do. mr. stern. mr. bouck, i would like to outline first the order of questioning i have in mind to give you a notion of how i would like to proceed and how you might respond to particular questions. i would like to cover first your biographical background, then the functions of the protective research section, generally the organization of the section, the sources of information on which you rely regarding potentially dangerous people, the criteria you employ to determine when an individual might be dangerous, what you do with the information once you receive it, and then some detail on how your filing system is set up and operates, how do you get at data. then based on all that background information, the preparations that were actually made for the president's trip to texas. i will begin by asking you to state your name, age and address. mr. bouck. my name is robert inman bouck. i am years of age. i live at norwood drive, falls church, va. mr. stern. what is your education, mr. bouck, at the college level? mr. bouck. i have a b.s. degree in police administration. mr. stern. from what college? mr. bouck. from michigan state college. mr. stern. and that was awarded when? mr. bouck. . mr. stern. what is your experience in the secret service--when did you join the service? mr. bouck. i came to the service in upon leaving college. from to i worked on protective assignments for the president and the presidential family and other people in the washington area. from until i worked in chief's office on supervising and reorganizing various activities in the chief's office. in i was loaned to the treasury department as coordinator, i organized schools and directed them in the enforcement area until , and in was assigned to the present job i now have of special agent-in-charge, protective research. mr. stern. mr. bouck, i show you this document of six pages which has been marked commission exhibit no. . can you identify that for me? mr. bouck. yes. this is a memorandum of december that i prepared, also a second memorandum of december that i prepared. mr. stern. and these were prepared in response to instructions to you? mr. bouck. in response to instructions from my headquarter's office, yes. mr. stern. with the help of these memoranda i would like to touch briefly upon the functions of the protective research section that you head--for the moment those functions other than with respect to persons of concern as a possible danger to the president. if you will turn to the last page of this exhibit, there are a list of other duties of prs, and would you explain briefly those and give some idea of the magnitude of the task involved? mr. bouck. yes. the manufacture and control of white house passes are the admittance passes to the white house issued to the press, employees and others who have occasion to come to the white house or the executive office building that houses white house staff. this is some four to five thousand, fluctuating in volume. the procurement and evaluation of character investigations and clearances for some categories of employees, these are the employees that passes are issued to and these are the clearances that we require. some of them we investigate ourselves, many of them are investigated by other agencies, and we review and evaluate the results, the number being roughly the same as the number of passholders in this category. the procurement of national agency file checks and determination of admittance restrictions on a large number of tradesmen, contract employees and so forth who service the white house--these are non-white house employees. these are people who come to fix typewriters, clean rugs and that sort of thing. mr. stern. approximately how many people are involved in that category, mr. bouck. mr. bouck. this, we have a file of about , of these people, about , are active at any one time, and several hundred a month turn over in this. item no. , control of security processing of mail and gifts received at the white house, this is done by postal and white house employees under x-rays and security equipment provided by us under our guidance and we take over whenever any dangerous situation is indicated. this varies at christmas time, when there are many hundreds of items reviewed; normally a few a day. no. , handling and disposition of suspicious packages or objects that may contain bombs or infernal devices; we have a bomb transporting truck, we have bomb analyzing equipment, we have a location and a place where we can dismantle bombs, and this, i am happy to say, we have had many scares but we have not had the real thing. we do this frequently as a precaution on things that we cannot analyze under the x-ray, but we have not actually had a bomb at the white house. mr. dulles. may i ask where is the white house mail handled, right in the white house itself? mr. bouck. no; it is handled in the executive office building which is across the street from the white house. mr. dulles. the old state, war and navy building? mr. bouck. yes, sir. no. , evaluation of safety and control of disposition of all foods, beverages and similar consumable items received by the president or white house as gifts. we do not, even though these are handled by white house and post office employees, we pass judgment as to whether any consumable item may be used and under what conditions it may be used or whether it must be destroyed. this particular function we do entirely. and again at christmas time and birthdays it would be very high, many hundreds of items. other times a few a day. no. , control and investigation of---- mr. mccloy. can i interrupt there, have you had any poisoned foods? mr. bouck. we think not at the white house, but this we are always watchful for. we have some food that we think sanitationwise is very bad, it smells bad, it looked bad, some has spoiled and some have been prepared under very bad conditions but we know of no actual case of intended poison. we have had some where poisons may have generated because spoilage has set in. mr. mccloy. yes. you don't have a royal taster, do you? (laughter.) mr. bouck. no, i am afraid we do not. control investigations on personnel and establishments that are supply sources for food, beverages, drugs and so forth, these are the places that the white house buys those supplies. we find out from the white house where they would like to buy, we check on the employees of these establishments, we check on the procedures by which it is handled, and we check on the sources of their food, where they get the raw materials. this is an investigative process and a control process. representative ford. how often do you go through this process? mr. bouck. the process is continuous in that the control, for instance a white house policeman goes and picks up, when the food is picked up. but the reinvestigation is every months. we take a new look at each of these establishments every months to see if any change has occurred. in between times we have arrangements with public health to make frequent health inspections, much more frequent than an ordinary establishment would be inspected. representative ford. if there is a change of an employee at one of these shops or stores, are you notified? mr. bouck. we are supposed to be notified. sometimes we aren't aware until we make the next check, although our white house policeman and our purchasing people do keep watch for this and usually we have established that only a small percentage of the people who handle white house orders, perhaps the manager and one clerk. it works quite well. no. , the performance of technical and electronic inspections to protect against covert listening devices. this is something that has been done for a great many years, the volume has gotten quite great in recent years, and we do this regularly at the white house and for the people close to the president, we do it regularly when he has stopover points on trips. mr. dulles. do you ever call the fbi in on this or do you have your own staffs to handle this detection of listening devices? mr. bouck. we have our own staff but we frequently use people of other agencies, including the fbi where they have specialties or are able to perform something better than we could. mr. dulles. did you consider there is any duplication there, i mean of facilities in government? mr. bouck. no; i think not. this really requires bodies, and if there is---- mr. dulles. and skills? mr. bouck. yes; and if, once in a while a special skill is required that we do not possess then we turn to another agency to help us. no. , determination of feasibility of application, establishment of specifications for procurement, and assistance in maintaining operation of a wide variety of electronic and technical protective aids. these are alarms, both for hazards, intrusion, and all sorts of dangers where a mechanical or electronic device can augment personal services. mr. dulles. could i just ask on that, do you have arrangements, say, with the fbi, cia and others to keep abreast of the art, as it were? mr. bouck. yes. mr. dulles. i have in mind that time when we discovered the russians had developed a new device and applied it in the embassy in moscow, you may recall which was quite novel, when they put in a hollow cavity inside the shield of the great seal of the united states, and then they could beam on that and they could listen to conversations in the room. that type of thing, you would be following that up through the fbi or through the cia? mr. bouck. very much so, yes. we have rather low resources in those areas so the other agencies in the areas of research and development and hardware help us continuously and very well. mr. stern. now these, mr. bouck, as i understand it, are the functions of prs which it has in addition to its main responsibility, and would you describe that just briefly and we will get to that in a minute. mr. bouck. yes, the other responsibility that is not listed here, is the responsibility of attempting to detect persons who might intend harm to the president, and to control those persons or take such corrective measures as we can take securitywise on them. representative ford. i am not sure i understand that. mr. bouck. this is an effort to detect people who might intend to harm the president, people who make threats against the president, people who do things that indicate they may intend to harm him, and the various sort of things we do to see that they do not accomplish that, to prevent them from accomplishing them. mr. dulles. does your particular office maintain the central files for your agency? mr. bouck. for this function? mr. dulles. for this function. mr. bouck. yes. mr. dulles. i mean if the fbi sent in to the secret service a name or a description of a particular man, or a particular area that would be filed in your office? mr. bouck. that is right. mr. dulles. do you file that alphabetically, by location or how do you develop those files? mr. bouck. the information in its file jackets is filed numerically but it is indexed alphabetically and by location as well as by certain other characteristics that may help us find it. mr. mccloy. to come back to this matter of bugging again, do you feel that you are thoroughly well equipped, which is a repetition perhaps of what mr. dulles asked, mr. dulles' question, do you have an expert staff that know this business and that keep up to date with the developments in the area, and that can constantly keep your equipment in shape? mr. bouck. yes; i think so. i think we, our contacts with the intelligence community in this area are very excellent. our people are excellent. i think our big problem has been one of enough resources. mr. mccloy. how many bodies have you got in this field? mr. bouck. i have three bodies devoted entirely to it, myself and my assistant have also had years of experience, and we devote part-time to this, which makes approximately four and a half full time bodies. mr. stern. this might be a good opportunity, mr. mccloy, to introduce this document, marked commission exhibit no. . do you recognize that? mr. bouck. yes, sir. mr. stern. did you prepare it. mr. bouck. i prepared it. mr. stern. and what is it? mr. bouck. it is a chart showing the staffing of the protective research section as of the time of dallas. mr. stern. and the category you were just explaining to mr. mccloy is the last one? mr. bouck. that is right. mr. dulles. do you protect from this point of view anyone other than the president? do you cover, say, the vice president's offices in the capitol? mr. bouck. yes, sir. mr. dulles. you do that, too? mr. bouck. yes, sir. mr. dulles. as far as safes are concerned and as far as listening devices are concerned? mr. bouck. not safes. mr. dulles. not safes? mr. bouck. that has not been something that they have desired us to do. but insofar as---- mr. dulles. why shouldn't you do that, i wonder, where he keeps his secret papers? you mean you don't---- mr. bouck. that has not been something that has been determined as our responsibility. i believe other security officers have been given that responsibility, and we certainly, of course, help when we find something in that category, but we have not been asked at any of those levels to take care of safes. mr. dulles. but you do take care of listening devices? mr. bouck. yes, sir. mr. dulles. and for anybody else other than the vice president in addition to the white house and the president? mr. bouck. the white house, the president, the vice president, the close members of the presidential staff, and the secretary of the treasury. mr. dulles. well, would that involve the homes, for example, of the close members of the president's staff? mr. bouck. the very high members, yes, not all, but the very high members. i think we do about six or seven homes of such people. the rest is office and working areas. mr. mccloy. i have some question, i may say, that you have got enough people to do this from what i know of the art. this is quite a technical business now. mr. bouck. yes, i know. mr. mccloy. and the means of counteracting it and so forth, and the constant surveillance that you have to employ, but you are satisfied you are well equipped and have got sufficient people to do it? mr. bouck. as i mentioned earlier, i think we are well equipped in know-how and in equipment. sometimes we are pressed very hard for enough hours to do it but our people have worked many hours overtime and i think they have covered this quite well. representative ford. what results have you obtained? have you found any problems? mr. bouck. we have not in the united states found any compromise. i am not sure that perhaps in the open record i should go beyond that. (discussion off the record.) mr. mccloy. on the record. mr. stern. from exhibit , mr. bouck, it appears that in the area of processing information regarding threats, potential threats to the life of the president, there are six people presently working in addition to yourself and your assistant, one a clerk and five special agents, as they are designated is that correct? this is as of the time of dallas. mr. bouck. this is as of the time of dallas. mr. stern. these special agents are agents who would otherwise be involved in protective work or in the other activities of the secret service, counterfeiting and the like? mr. bouck. yes. mr. stern. is there something about their general training that makes them particularly desirable in this work or is it the absence of other people that leads to the use of special agents in this work? mr. bouck. they have been selected because of an apparent aptitude for this work. some of them, not all, but most of them have had many years of background in this work that increases their competence. mr. stern. are these men permanently assigned to this function or do they rotate? mr. bouck. they are susceptible to other assignment, but this assignment is something that may continue until the chief should decide it was in the interest of the service to change. it can and has gone many years for most of us. they do not automatically rotate. mr. stern. i see. as of the time of dallas the total number of people in the protective research section was of which were clerks, is that correct? mr. bouck. that is correct. mr. dulles. could i ask one question that goes back to our earlier discussion? at the present time the speaker is next in line in case anything should happen to the president. do you extend any special protective facilities as far as he is concerned? mr. bouck. this, we are kind of in an advance area here. i do handle mail that may come in the protective research area but i don't think i am quite qualified to speak on the entire secret service relationship to the speaker, if i might seem not---- mr. dulles. what i was getting at was whether there were any special protection afforded now in view of his, in a sense new position as being next in line. mr. mccloy. he is in effect the vice president. mr. dulles. he is in effect the vice president. mr. bouck. yes, i realize that, and i believe this gets into some areas that involve the wishes of the speaker, that make this question a little bit difficult to answer, and i would say we do do what comes to our attention that we can, but i think the chief is probably in a better position to indicate what degree we have gone. i am not really overly familiar with the exact extent of that degree except as it may apply here but we do handle in the crank area, and in the protective research subject area, we do handle that material as we would handle it for the president or vice president when we are able to get it. mr. mccloy. off the record. (discussion off the record.) testimony of robert carswell mr. mccloy. why don't i swear you, mr. carswell? raise your right hand. do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give in this hearing will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. carswell. i do. mr. mccloy. you give your name for the record. mr. carswell. robert carswell. special assistant to the secretary of the treasury. my address is q street nw., washington. mr. mccloy. i think it might be well, mr. carswell, if you simply indicated some of it, in response to the last question, namely, as to whether or not there was security provided for the speaker, who is next in line for the presidency, and perhaps in view of your duties as assistant to the secretary of the treasury you might have some information upon that which would be helpful to us. mr. carswell. yes. after the assassination in dallas, the secret service initiated protection of the speaker. the secretary of the treasury spoke with the speaker, and agents were assigned to him. i am not qualified to say exactly the number of agents or the duties they perform but in general they provide protection comparable to that previously provided to the vice president. mr. dulles. and mr. rowley could furnish us any detail the commission might want? mr. carswell. yes, i would suggest that chief rowley is the proper person to furnish that information. testimony of robert inman bouck resumed mr. stern. i would like to turn now, mr. bouck, to the sources of information for prs on potentially dangerous individuals. would you describe the various sources you rely upon? mr. bouck. yes. if i might refer to this exhibit that is which would be page of that, the second memorandum. i believe the front of that lists the sources. no. is mail, packages, telephone calls, received at the white house, the president's home, on trips, and so forth, these are screened, and so forth, in prs and evaluated and if they meet certain prescribed criteria they are retained by prs and become a source of information. unwelcome visitors to the white house or anywhere else the president may be is another source. information received---- mr. dulles. what page are you on? mr. bouck. that is the page. mr. dulles. the first page? mr. bouck. yes, i am reading from the second paragraph or rather the tabulation. mr. dulles. yes, i find it. mr. bouck. certain information comes directly to us or is developed by us, item . item , reports from other government agencies, and officials. item , reports from police departments, state and local sources, and then we get a certain amount of phone calls, letters and information that come directly to us from the public. mr. stern. we may get some notion of the volume of the information you receive from this document, which is entitled "protective research cases, november through november ," which would be exhibit . do you recognize that, mr. bouck? mr. bouck. i do, i prepared this document. mr. stern. may it be admitted? mr. mccloy. it may be admitted. (the document referred to, previously marked as commission exhibit no. , for identification, was received in evidence.) mr. stern. turning to the first page in the summary of exhibit , mr. bouck, you have taken the protective research cases from november to november , which involve residents of the state of texas, and these were how many cases? mr. bouck. . mr. stern. and you have broken them down by the source of the information in four categories which are---- mr. bouck. letters or phone calls; detected by the secret service; reported by federal agencies; reported by local authorities. mr. stern. then towards the bottom of that page you have given gross figures during the same -year period of the nationwide activity. would you state what the nationwide caseload was? mr. bouck. yes. the cases we received nationwide and did not investigate because they didn't meet the criteria for investigation were , . the cases we received and investigated were , . during the same period on these cases we arrested people and investigations were unproductive. they did not solve the cases. mr. stern. you stated that the volume of information received has been rising. would you describe the total for the years , , and ? mr. bouck. yes. these do not represent cases. these represent items of information reported. in we had about , such items coming to our attention; in this had increased to somewhat over , items. by this had increased in excess of , items. mr. stern. each of those items is examined by one of the five special agents working on this area? mr. bouck. that is right. mr. stern. now of the texas cases in this -year period---- mr. dulles. could i ask a question before you get on the texas cases, on this record, it indicates that about , cases were "received but not investigated" it seems to me for the record it would be well to have a little more on that as to why they weren't investigated, and so forth. i suppose in a great many cases, you couldn't find who it was. it was an anonymous letter that came in. would that be included? mr. bouck. not for the cause of this, sir. i assume you are speaking of this , cases. mr. dulles. that is right. mr. bouck. in the bottom table. mr. dulles. of those , were received and investigated? mr. bouck. we receive a great deal of information on people that we do not feel at that time intended to harm the president, but that would bear watching. we aren't quite sure whether they will become worse in the future, and this is---- mr. dulles. is that among about the , cases i am referring to? mr. bouck. the , . mr. dulles. well, there are , cases received, but not investigated. mr. bouck. these are two separate ones. the investigated cases are in addition. mr. dulles. this is in addition to that? mr. bouck. yes. mr. dulles. i see. mr. bouck. the , cases are cases that we received, we looked at, and felt that we will file it and see if anything more happens on this, but it doesn't warrant investigative attention until we get something more alarming than we have. mr. dulles. who makes that judgment, is that made in your department? mr. bouck. that is made in my department by one of these five agents that are listed in this document. mr. dulles. do you review their determination? mr. bouck. i do not review all of them. i review a percentage of their determinations, and i am consulted on any that are borderline or that are difficult. mr. stern. of the texas cases, almost half or were reported by federal authorities. is this typical of all information received by prs in the course of a year? mr. bouck. no, this would be typical of the investigated cases but not typical of the entire quantity of cases received. mr. stern. i see. representative ford. are the listed here included in the , or the , ? mr. bouck. , . mr. stern. do you have a judgment, mr. bouck, as to the proportion of cases coming to you from other agencies, federal agencies, state and local agencies, of the total number of cases you have? mr. bouck. about percent of the cases generated would be other than from agencies. the percent that come from federal and local agencies, the majority of that come from federal agencies. i wouldn't know quite the percentage. but the majority of the percent would be federal agencies. mr. stern. and predominantly from any one agency? mr. bouck. yes, predominantly from the federal bureau of investigation. mr. stern. as to the percent that is generated internally, as it were, do you have an opinion as to how many of those arise because of correspondence with the white house by the subject? mr. bouck. the great majority of them arise from telegrams, telephone calls, unwelcome visitors, letters to the white house. mr. stern. unwelcome visitors at the white house? mr. bouck. yes. mr. dulles. do you know how many cases within the , noted here, which i understand is nationwide, were from texas? mr. bouck. yes. i believe we show that in the third paragraph, cases were in texas. mr. stern. yes. mr. bouck. in addition to the cases investigated. it is up in the third paragraph from the top, right under the table, the second paragraph under the table, sir; right where your finger is, the first line there. mr. dulles. ? mr. bouck. yes. mr. dulles. did the name of lee harvey oswald appear in your files at any time prior to the d of november ? mr. bouck. no, sir; we had never heard of him in any context. mr. dulles. his name doesn't appear at all? mr. bouck. not as of that time. prior to dallas, it did not appear in any fashion. we had no knowledge of the name. mr. dulles. you had no report from the state department or the fbi that covered his trip to russia or anything of that kind? mr. bouck. no, sir. mr. mccloy. or of the cia? mr. bouck. no, sir. mr. stern. mr. bouck, what kind of information do you look for, what are the criteria you apply, in determining whether someone is a potential danger to the president? what do you ask other agencies, federal, state, and local to be on the lookout for? mr. bouck. our criteria is broad in general. it consists of desiring any information that would indicate any degree of harm or potential harm to the president, either at the present time or in the future. mr. stern. had you ever prior to dallas had occasion to--for any part of your activities--list criteria that you would apply in trying to determine whether someone is a potential danger? mr. bouck. we had not had a formal written listing of criteria as such except in this general form of desiring everything that might indicate a possible source of harm to the safety of the president. we had some internal breakdown of information for the processing of certain kinds of material where the criteria were involved. mr. stern. i didn't mean to restrict my question to criteria for external sources, but those you used internally as well. mr. bouck. we had some internal, as well. mr. stern. i show you now a one-page document entitled "the following criteria are used as guides in determining whether white house mail is to be accepted for prs processing," which has been marked for identification as commission exhibit no. . can you identify that? mr. bouck. yes, sir; this is a document that i helped draft some years ago. it is a document i prepared for the commission. it is a document that was used up to and at the time of dallas. mr. stern. for what purpose? mr. bouck. for the purpose of screening white house mail. the white house gives us a considerable quantity of mail, not all of which we--it is desirable that we keep, and this is a guide to the agents in determining what we should keep and what should go back to be answered by the white house staff. mr. stern. this guide is not used by the white house mailroom? this is an internal guide for your own agents? mr. bouck. my own agents. mr. stern. what instructions does the white house mailroom have as to mail that is to be sent to you? mr. bouck. the white house mail has two general instructions: one, we supply them with identification information on all existing cases in which mail is concerned; that any further mail in those cases is automatically referred to us. their criteria are the same as our other general criteria--that in addition to these known cases we desire letters, telegrams, or any other document they receive that in any way indicates any one may have possible intention of harming the president. mr. stern. have you---- mr. dulles. could i ask just one question here? mr. stern. yes, sir. mr. dulles. i note that this list does not include membership in various types of organizations, such as the, for example, the organizations that are on the attorney general's list. have you ever considered that? mr. bouck. yes; if i might explain, sir; the letters we are talking about are letters that are written by people, and they rarely include that kind of information, but we do in other categories, this is for a special purpose. this is letters only that are sent to the president which is all this is applied to. this does not apply to other sources of information, only the one source of letters. mr. stern. have you had occasion, mr. bouck, before dallas, to put in writing criteria to be employed by secret service agents in dealing with uninvited callers at the white house? mr. bouck. yes, sir. mr. stern. i show you now a document which i have marked for identification commission exhibit no. , one page, entitled "the following criteria are used as guides in determining whether white house callers should be committed for mental observation." do you recognize that? mr. bouck. yes, sir. mr. stern. did you have it prepared? mr. bouck. i did. mr. stern. how was this employed? mr. bouck. a great percentage of the people who come to see the president or to the white house gates have been found to be suffering from mental illness. this involves a determination as to whether a legal process will take place of committing these people, and in discussions with the mental commission in washington and elsewhere, we have found that certain criteria meet their desires in whether or not we should legally process them. so this was prepared as a guide to agents in trying to determine whether we could send these people down for commitment to a mental institution or consideration by the commission on mental health. mr. stern. under the district of columbia commitment procedures? mr. bouck. yes; that is right. mr. stern. beyond these criteria for dealing with white house mail and uninvited visitors at the white house, what instructions within the broad framework of your criteria do you give to treasury law enforcement officers, including secret service agents, with respect to the kind of information you are interested in receiving? mr. bouck. we have participation in a broad program of treasury schools which include all of the treasury agencies as well as participation of certain other people in our own schools. we have a coordination setup in treasury on which the heads of organization levels meets regularly. in all of those the secret service jurisdiction, the secret service desires and needs in the way of protection of the president have been included many times over. it is a constant, one of those things that is constantly brought up many times both in the schools and in the coordination needs of the secret service needs and functions in these areas. mr. stern. do you participate in other training programs of other law enforcement agencies? mr. bouck. yes. mr. stern. will you describe that and with particular reference to this problem? mr. bouck. we participate both on the national level and at the field level. our agents in the field are instructed to accept any invitation to teach in a police school of any level or security school, and we have prescribed exact outlines of material they should get across. one of the main topics being the protection topic. we teach in marine schools here in washington. we teach in some of the state activities; a number of the different military activities. we have had students from most of the bigger agencies of government, cia, state, and so forth, who have attended these portions of our training schools. mr. stern. what requests do you make to other federal agencies? mr. bouck. we make this same request--that we desire any and all information that they may come in contact with that would indicate danger to the president. mr. stern. how are these requests communicated? mr. bouck. they are fundamentally communicated by personal contact of varying degrees with the fbi. we have a personal liaison contact in which an individual, a liaison officer actually makes daily contact. with the other agencies, other security agencies and enforcement agencies, we are--people on my staff have personal relationships where we can call on the telephone and do call on the telephone very frequently, sometimes some agencies everyday, and they in turn call us. mr. stern. what agencies do you have these liaison relationships with--federal agencies? mr. bouck. we have on a commonly used basis, we have some liaison with almost all of them but on a common using basis we have these relationships with cia, with the several military services, with the department of state. i have mentioned the fbi. mr. stern. central intelligence agency? mr. bouck. oh, yes; very much so. they are, especially on trips very, very helpful. mr. dulles. foreign trips? mr. bouck. foreign trips, yes. representative ford. how often do your people check to see procedures which are used by these various agencies for the determination of whether an individual is a dangerous person? mr. bouck. we don't do that systematically. we frequently have such discussions but they are usually on a specific basis. our representative will call up and say, "we just received this information. would this be of interest to you." in these borderline cases, we have much of that, and after discussion we decide whether it would or would not be. but outside of raising this question as it comes in connection with business between our agencies we do not make a practice of just simply querying them on this. we have not done that, as i recall. representative ford. you don't lay down a particular criterion for agency x, y, or z? mr. bouck. no. we have the one general criterion that we have advocated for many years. i think it is quite well understood. we do not see signs that there were any lack of knowledge that this was our job and we wished this kind of information. mr. dulles. have you made any study going back in history of the various attempts that have been made, and successful and unsuccessful attempts, that have been made against presidents or---- mr. bouck. rulers. mr. dulles. or people about to be president, or who have been president? mr. bouck. yes, yes. we have not only studied all of our own but we have studied all of the assassinations that we could find any record of for , years back. and strangely enough some of the thinking that went on , years ago seems to show up in thinking of assassinations today. mr. stern. do you increase protection on the ides of march? mr. dulles. is that available? is that--i don't know. mr. bouck. it is available in a rather crude form. it has not been boiled down to a concise report. mr. dulles. how voluminous is this? i should be very much interested in thumbing through it because i have been trying to study the past history. mr. bouck. the rough notes on this are this high. mr. dulles. a few thousand pages? mr. bouck. the studies didn't go beyond that. mr. dulles. by cases? mr. bouck. yes. of course, in many of these cases it is very spotty and these are handwritten notes. we never, outside of extracting in this in training material and what not, we have never systematized it down to where it is a readable document as such. mr. dulles. have you tried to draw any conclusion out of this study as to the type of people, the types of causes, the types of incentives? mr. bouck. yes; we have. mr. dulles. that is in your department, is it, to do this? mr. bouck. yes; it is. we have arrived at some conclusions from it. (discussion off the record.) mr. mccloy. on the record. your study of the prior assassinations would take into account czolgosz, guiteau, what type of persons they were? mr. bouck. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. the thing to me that seems very worthy of research is the plotter, i mean the political plotter as against, for want of a better word, the loner, the man who is self-motivated against the man who has to have a group around him. how do you tell one from the other? i just was reading last night in loomis about madame corday. she was just as much of a loner as apparently mr. oswald was. mr. dulles. so was czolgosz so far as i can make out, and so was zangara. zangara, i was told, planned to shoot hoover and then he decided that the climate of washington wasn't very healthy in february and march for him because he had stomach trouble, so he decided that f.d.r. was coming to miami and it was just as good to shoot him. you have situations of that kind that defy it. mr. bouck. i believe he intended to shoot the king of italy before that but he got a chance to migrate before he got an opportunity. mr. dulles. zangara? mr. bouck. yes. mr. mccloy. do you have any look out for defectors as such? mr. bouck. as such we have never been quite able to determine that that is a valid criterion. we do not as such. mr. mccloy. you have some suspicions, now, don't you? mr. bouck. yes; we have some suspicions now; yes, sir. mr. dulles. i wonder whether it would not be useful for this commission to have, if it could be reduced to readable form and to assist, the conclusions of your study if you have such conclusions? mr. bouck. we will do that, sir. mr. dulles. what do you think, do the rest of you agree to that? mr. mccloy. i think it is part of our mission to try to make recommendations in regard to the future protection of the presidents. actually, we don't want to go into anything which is going to compromise the future security of presidents. we simply want to augment. what we are concerned about is how well equipped we are to do the job in the light of all the circumstances and i would think that any conclusions that you have in this regard, if you--the secret service, treasury--could convey them to us in a form that perhaps we might endorse, it might be helpful from your point of view and our point of view. representative ford. i would agree with that observation. mr. dulles. you can possibly define categories. you may find the loner, you may find a fellow engaged in a plot with others for political reasons and that would help us very much because we find that particularly the case we are investigating falls into one of these classes. mr. bouck. all right. (discussion off the record.) (at this point senator cooper entered the hearing room.) mr. mccloy. i think we are ready to go ahead. mr. stern. fine, mr. chairman. i would like to turn now to the actual processing by prs of the information they receive and have mr. bouck tell us what happens to an item of information when it is received, how it is processed, how the references to field offices are made, and perhaps you might illustrate, mr. bouck, from the cases that are summarized in commission exhibit . mr. bouck. in exhibit , the second memorandum applies to that, and i will basically follow that unless questions differ. mr. stern. i think it would be better for you not to read it but to paraphrase it, tell us what happens. mr. bouck. when a document is received by the secret service, it is first searched against our files to see if we have any previous experience with this individual or with this threat. if it is found that we do have previous material there is an analysis made, and then a determination is made at that point as to what the apparent degree of threat would be on this. if it appears that on the surface there is a threat, lookouts will immediately be issued to the white house detail, the white house police and various other security details, in order that they may be alerted to any danger that happens. if the danger seems quite strong, a telephone call will be made to the field office in order to begin the investigation without even waiting for the mail. the threat is then processed and sent through the mail with the documents to the office concerned. if it is determined that it is a possible danger, a card is put in a particular file which would alert us in case the president went to that area that an investigation of a dangerous person were underway. after the field office has investigated they would attempt to take corrective action if a law has been violated, the individual will be prosecuted, if practical, and if the individual is determined to be mentally ill, attempts will be made to get commitment into a mental institution. when the report is submitted back, if the individual is not confined or is not evaluated as being no danger, then we would put cards in several control devices, one being a trip index file to make sure that we alerted the field office when the president went to that area; another being a control checkup device which means that if this individual is regarded as dangerous we will keep checking up on him every few months to see if he is getting worse or see what he is doing. mr. stern. could you illustrate by a case or two from exhibit the different kinds of matters that come to your attention and the different ways in which they are processed? mr. bouck. yes. on page of this exhibit happens to be a case that had its origin in the field, in denton, tex., of a potential threat that appeared to apply to dallas. it was investigated in the field, and pictures were obtained, and information was obtained and dispensed to the white house detail at the time president kennedy went to dallas, and in this particular case, it was subsequently referred to prs and has been placed in our files and indexed in our indexes. case no. is a similar---- mr. dulles. may i ask a question there? when you refer to the field offices, this is the field office of the secret service? mr. bouck. field offices of the secret service. mr. dulles. how many do you have? mr. bouck. sixty. mr. dulles. sixty? mr. bouck. in the united states, and i believe one of those is in puerto rico and one is in paris, of the . mr. dulles. those offices cooperate with the fbi offices? mr. bouck. yes. if you will look over these cases, you will see that as a matter of fact, this page , this case is given as originating with the chief of police of denton, tex., but the fbi already also determined that and they reported that to us almost simultaneously. mr. dulles. yes; that doesn't show up on this particular page. mr. bouck. no; it is stated, i think in some other exhibit but i erroneously neglected it here. but you will find in many of those, that was true on page , that indicates a case where the fbi has picked up information and gave it to us. mr. stern. you might mention, perhaps, mr. bouck, the cases under the last tab of your exhibit which were cases that were not investigated, just as a contrast. mr. bouck. that is right. these referrals from the fbi are all through here. page is another one where they picked up information and gave it to us. the first four sections relate to the cases in the four offices of texas during a -year period. the very final one illustrates just a little sample of the kind of cases we received in texas which we did not think warranted investigation. that will give you an idea of what those cases amounted to. why we didn't go into them. mr. mccloy. let me ask you this: are your records and equipment modern in the sense that you have got punchcards on all these, have you got the type of equipment that you would think that extensive files and extensive information and quick access to them might be very important. do you have ibm machines and do you have punchcards, for example, so that you can have quick cross references? mr. bouck. no, sir. our files are conventional, card indexes, conventional folders. we do not have machine operation in that sense. mr. mccloy. don't you think that with all this mass of information that comes in that that would be an asset to you? mr. bouck. if i might defer to mr. carswell again, i believe that is in the document you are handling, discussion of that, am i right, mr. carswell, or in the studies that are going on. mr. carswell. yes. mr. bouck. this is part of this big overall consideration again. mr. mccloy. it just seems to me this is almost a typical case of where that type of thing can do you a great deal of good. you have it in industry to a very marked degree. i wonder whether it could be--i don't know enough about the flow of these things. mr. bouck. this is under a great deal of consideration as a part of this post-dallas study that mr. carswell referred to and i am quite sure that it will be contained in the final results. mr. mccloy. very well. go ahead. mr. dulles. could i ask one question in that connection? you say at the bottom of the page, this introductory table page, that the total exceeded , items. mr. bouck. yes. mr. dulles. does that mean now you have cards on , people? mr. bouck. oh, no; we have cards on close to a million people. mr. dulles. a million people? mr. bouck. yes. mr. dulles. this total then is -year total? mr. bouck. this is a -year total--no, wait a minute. i beg your pardon. mr. mccloy. . mr. bouck. this is a -year total for , -year total for , and -year total for . mr. dulles. that is just the number, and these figures are cumulative that you have here? mr. bouck. no; everyone is a year. mr. dulles. that is what i mean, you have the total you have to add this up for previous years, but you don't keep them forever, you take some of these out. mr. bouck. these are not all cards, but these are items of information. in -year cases we might get , items in a particular case, and these items would go in the case files. mr. dulles. do you know how many names you have carded now, approximately? mr. bouck. we have not counted them but we think in the vicinity of a million but they are not all active, you see. we have no way of knowing when people die in some cases and things like that. so we don't know just how many of these million are now active. certainly very much less than a million. mr. dulles. but you have a million names carded? mr. bouck. yes. in the indexes. mr. stern. in the files which you describe as basic files, i believe, how many cases are current, either in your office or within easy access? mr. bouck. about , . mr. stern. about , . so that , are in some other storage? mr. bouck. not all of these cards, you see, will represent cases because we have some cases in which many people are involved. there would be considerably less cases than there would be card indexes, but we do have a very sizable storage of cases under national archives, some of the older ones having gone to places like the roosevelt library. (at this point representative ford left the hearing room.) mr. stern. these are your basic files which now have something in the order of , active cases? mr. bouck. yes. mr. stern. and some of these involve more than one individual? mr. bouck. yes. mr. stern. in these cases? mr. bouck. yes. mr. stern. a case might be an organization, as i understand it, rather than an individual? mr. bouck. that is right. mr. stern. and the members of that organization would be collected under that one case? mr. bouck. yes. mr. stern. would they also be listed individually? mr. bouck. they would be listed individually if they were of interest to us as individuals. sometimes we would get the membership of a group of people that attended a lecture, let's say, where very derogatory information was given out about the president, but most of these people seem like ordinary citizens and it doesn't seem like worth investigating. we might have people listed in that, this would not be normal, but it would be a few cases like that. mr. stern. now, as i understand it you by no means investigate every individual who is in one of these , cases? mr. bouck. that is correct. mr. stern. and what are the criteria that you use? mr. bouck. the criteria for investigation are feelings that there is indeed an indication that there may be a danger to the president. mr. stern. but there has to be some indication of a potential danger to the president to get that individual into a case to begin with, i take it. if it were clear he was not? mr. bouck. yes; but not necessarily a current indication. we take many of these where we think an individual is becoming hostile and a little bit disgusted with the president, we take many of those cases to watch these people. we keep getting information here and there along, and frequently after we get the second or third piece of information, we decide indeed this individual is perhaps--does perhaps constitute a menace, and at that point we would investigate it. mr. stern. as i understand it, one of the main purposes of your investigation is to attempt to deal with the dangerous individual at that time? mr. bouck. yes, sir. mr. stern. how would you deal with these people whom we are speaking about? mr. bouck. we deal with them primarily in three ways. first, if a law violation is involved an attempt will be made to see if a prosecution is in order. mr. stern. what sort of law violation? mr. bouck. well, we have a threat law, for one, that is under our jurisdiction. then in the case---- mr. stern. this is threats against the president? mr. bouck. threats against the president. then there is---- mr. dulles. is that a local law? mr. bouck. no; that is a federal law. mr. dulles. it is a federal law? mr. bouck. yes. mr. stern. and it involves what sort of act? mr. bouck. it involves making a threat to kill the president or to harm the president. mr. stern. not necessarily---- mr. mccloy. do you have a citation of that law? mr. bouck. it is in some exhibit, i am sure. mr. mccloy. i think it is well to put it in the record if we have it. mr. dulles. yes; i think it would be very good. mr. carswell. can we supply it? mr. dulles. why don't you supply it? (it was later supplied as u.s.c., section .) mr. bouck. if the investigation indicates that the individual is mentally unbalanced, which a high percentage are, then attempt will be made to persuade local authorities to get hospitalization, confinement in an institution. if neither of those are possible, attempts will be made to get local officers and family, if they will cooperate, to help us keep track of him, and we will institute checkups from time to time when we are investigating. those are basically the control measures that we are able to use. in some cases we may conduct surveillance, by the way, if we can't do any of those, and we regard the man as very dangerous. mr. stern. i show you a -page pink card marked for identification commission exhibit no. . can you tell us what that is? mr. bouck. yes; this is a card which we have prepared when an individual that we have rated as dangerous is placed in an institution, either a mental institution or a penal institution. we supply that card to the superintendent of the institution. we ask him to put it in the front of the individual's case jacket, and it is all filled in so that the return address and all are on it. the frank portion of it on the bottom is a frank portion, all he has to do is to indicate whether the individual has escaped, transferred or been released and drop it in the mail to advise us on action they may take on letting him out or if he has escaped. mr. stern. that is the control you exercise over persons who are institutionalized in prison or some sort of hospital? mr. bouck. yes. mr. stern. when an individual is determined after investigation to present some level of danger but not sufficient to warrant prosecution or not to be a mentally disturbed person warranting commitment, how do you control that individual, keep track of him? mr. bouck. if we think he is in fact dangerous, he would be in our checkup file which is really a control device by which at least every months we reinvestigate and in between times we try to have arrangements with the family and local officers to let us know if he leaves town or buys a gun or anything. the other device is a geographical card file in which we would put a card to let us know about this individual in case the president went to that geographical area so that the office might take a further look and see if he was a menace. mr. stern. at the time of dallas, do you know approximately how many persons were in institutions under this system where you would be notified if they left or escaped? mr. bouck. i am sorry, i don't have that. mr. stern. the order of magnitude, any estimate? mr. bouck. it would be some thousands but i wouldn't really have a close idea. i could get that and supply it. i just would have to guess and it would be a very bad guess. mr. stern. fine. but you can determine this for us? mr. bouck. yes. mr. stern. good. how many at the time of dallas would be in your checkup control file system with this periodic review? mr. bouck. about . mr. stern. individuals? mr. bouck. that is nationwide. mr. stern. again, at the time of dallas, how many individuals would have been listed in the trip-index file which you have described? mr. bouck. about a hundred. mr. stern. one hundred in the nation? mr. bouck. yes. mr. stern. what are the criteria for putting someone's name in the trip-index file? mr. bouck. the belief on the part of the local field office, with confirmation from the protective research section that this individual would indeed constitute a risk to the president's safety, if he went to that area. mr. stern. this is done, this is organized, on a geographic basis? mr. bouck. yes. mr. stern. by secret service field offices? mr. bouck. yes. mr. stern. is there any other control device that you employed at the time of dallas? mr. bouck. we had at the time a very small device that we call an album which has a few, perhaps or people that we consider very dangerous or at least dangerous and so mobile that we can't be sure where they might be. this is a constant thing. copies of these are kept before the protective personnel at the white house all the time. this resides in their office. senator cooper. on that point, if this last category represents a group that is so highly dangerous, have any individuals in that group reached the place where they have made such statements as would bring them under the federal act which would require prosecution? mr. bouck. no, sir; if they were prosecutable we would seek that solution immediately, and many of them have been taken to the district attorney and it has just been determined they do not quite meet the requirements for prosecution. some have been prosecuted, and have served sentences and are out at the end of sentences but still thought to be dangerous. senator cooper. yes. mr. bouck. some have been in mental institutions and discharged, and there isn't ground to put them back but we are still afraid of them. mr. stern. are the individuals who are listed in the trip-index file, which numbered at the time of dallas about , also listed in the checkup control files? mr. bouck. yes. yes; they would, primarily that would to a large degree be in both places. mr. stern. then it is a fair summary, mr. bouck, that at the time of dallas the number of individuals that you were concerned with were some thousands, the number you will supply, who were institutionalized either in prison or in mental hospitals, and with such institutions you had an arrangement that would promptly notify you of the discharge or escape of that individual, some on a systematic review, approximately every months by your field offices, of which , were separately identified as particularly dangerous in the trip-index file, and some to whose photographs were in the album? mr. bouck. yes; i think---- mr. stern. as a matter of fact, i would suppose the people in the album would also be in the checkup control file so really we are talking about, are we not, the unknown number in institutions, and about other individuals whom you were actively reviewing and about whom you would be concerned on the occasion of the president's trip? mr. bouck. that is right. mr. stern. in addition, you had files on, active files on, approximately , cases involving at least that number and probably more, individuals which were your basic library, as it were, but of reference use only until more information was developed about them? mr. bouck. well, i think you are quite accurate except in the last category. in these , cases would be tremendous numbers of cases that had been given investigative attention, and had been determined that our first thought or our first indications of danger were not substantiated. the investigator, and we concurred, felt that the individual, at least at any particular time, that this particular individual was not really in fact a menace to the president's life. mr. dulles. what was the location of these , cases? we are talking now about dallas, is that countrywide? mr. bouck. countrywide. mr. mccloy. international. mr. bouck. it is worldwide over a period of years. mr. dulles. yes. somebody in thailand, if he was in thailand wouldn't be of much danger in dallas. mr. stern. but he would, as i understand it, sir, be included in the basic files if he had come to their attention as a potential danger. mr. dulles. someone in new orleans, for example, he could get up to dallas very quickly or if he were in houston, but this , covers the whole world. mr. stern. yes; and i think the important point here, mr. dulles, is that these are , cases of background information, including people already investigated and found not to represent danger. the number of cases under active scrutiny at the time of dallas amounted to about , who were reviewed periodically, plus a much larger number, in the thousands, of persons committed or imprisoned, and as to those, i expect there would be no problem until they were released. mr. bouck. that is right. mr. stern. and you had a system to be notified about the release or escape, is that correct? mr. bouck. that is correct. mr. dulles. so can we get from that about the number of cases you felt to look at in connection with the president's trip to dallas? mr. bouck. we actually---- mr. dulles. what range would that be? mr. bouck. we actually looked at a volume of cases approximating in connection with the trip to dallas. mr. stern. well---- mr. bouck. that is the total file that we looked into. mr. stern. on a national basis? mr. bouck. the total two or three files we looked into would encompass about that many people. mr. dulles. all right. that gives me just what i was asking for. mr. stern. in point of fact, mr. bouck, when you looked at the checkup control file and the trip-index file before the dallas trip how many names were reported for the areas in the dallas field office territory where the president was to visit? mr. bouck. we found no uncontrolled people in the trip file for dallas. all of the cases in dallas were controlled to our satisfaction. we found also in the checkup file no uncontrolled individuals that we thought warranted an alert for dallas. mr. dulles. did you ask the fbi or any other local agency for any cases they might have? mr. bouck. yes, sir. mr. dulles. in connection with the trip? mr. bouck. in fact, they referred several cases to us in connection with the trip, right prior to the trip on the local level. mr. dulles. on the local level? mr. bouck. on the local level. mr. mccloy. being as objective as you can be under the circumstances, what would you have done if the fbi had told you there was a man named oswald in dallas, who was a defector, had been a defector? mr. bouck. i think if they had told us only that, we probably would not have taken action. if i might qualify it further, if we had known what all of the government agencies knew together, and knew that he had that vantage point on the route, then we certainly would have taken very drastic action. mr. mccloy. if they had told you that there was a man named oswald in dallas, who had been a defector, who was employed at the texas school book depository? mr. bouck. yes, sir; we would have looked at that. mr. mccloy. you would have looked at that? mr. bouck. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. knowing that the texas school book depository was on the president's route? mr. bouck. on the president's route. mr. stern. would it have made a difference to you if he was a legitimate employee of that institution? mr. bouck. well, not from our standpoint of having us look at it. i can't predict too well what the field office would have done after they looked. it would depend on what they found out, but the field office would have checked that. we would has asked them to check it and they would in fact have checked it not knowing what conclusions they would have arrived at, i don't quite--i am not quite able to predict just what measures they would have taken. senator cooper. may i ask a question on this point? have you examined your records since the assassination of president kennedy to determine if the name lee oswald appears in your files? mr. bouck. we have never had it prior in any connection, never in our records. senator cooper. i gathered from what you said in response to mr. mccloy's question you do not keep any special file relating to defectors? mr. bouck. no, sir. senator cooper. in this country? mr. bouck. not unless there is something much more to it than the fact they defected. senator cooper. then in the case of lee oswald from your statement that you do not keep any file on defectors, if you had known about his presence there, what would have been the cause then for you to have taken special notice of him? mr. bouck. the key there would have been a defection plus a knowledge that he had a vantage point on the route. those two together would have required action. senator cooper. the point i make is, and this again is arguing after the fact, if the fact he was a defector, plus a vantage point would make you take notice of him it would seem to me it would be very substantial evidence to have in your file that he was a defector, wouldn't you think so? mr. bouck. well, again, this is part of this big study that we are in. we never before knew, i think, of a defector who did anything like this so we are not quite sure that defection in itself is a key to an assassin. however, that combined with certain things, knowing that he had a vantage point would have caused us to look. mr. stern. were there any other characteristics of oswald that you believe to have been known to other federal agencies before november that would have been important to you in deciding whether or not he was a potential threat? mr. bouck. yes. i think i have supplied you with a list of about things that were known to the federal agencies, but these, i believe, were spread from moscow to mexico city in at least four agencies, so i am not aware of how much any one agency or any one person might have known. but there was quite a little bit of derogatory information known about oswald in this broad expanse of agencies. mr. stern. without respect to any such list, what other characteristics, trying as much as possible to avoid hindsight, do you think were germane to determine his potential danger? mr. bouck. i would think his continued association with the russian embassy after his return, his association with the castro groups would have been of concern to us, a knowledge that he had, i believe, been court-martialed for illegal possession of a gun, of a hand gun in the marines, that he had owned a weapon and did a good deal of hunting or use of it, perhaps in russia, plus a number of items about his disposition and unreliability of character, i think all of those, if we had had them altogether, would have added up to pointing out a pretty bad individual, and i think that, together, had we known that he had a vantage point would have seemed somewhat serious to us, even though i must admit that none of these in themselves would be--would meet our specific criteria, none of them alone. but it is when you begin adding them up to some degree that you begin to get criteria that are meaningful. senator cooper. i am sure you have answered what i am going to ask but i will ask it anyway. then it is correct prior to the assassination the secret service had no information from any agency or any source---- mr. bouck. that is correct. senator cooper. relating to lee oswald? mr. bouck. that is correct. mr. stern. i believe you said earlier, mr. bouck, that before dallas you thought the liaison arrangements were satisfactory and that other federal agencies, in particular, had full awareness of the kind of information that the secret service was looking for under the general criteria that you articulated? mr. bouck. yes, sir. mr. stern. why then, do you think you were not notified of oswald? was there perhaps something wrong with the system? mr. bouck. this, of course, is opinion. in my opinion, there was no lack of knowledge of what we should have. insofar as i know no individual knew enough about oswald to judge him to meet our criteria of presenting a danger to the president. i know of no individual who knew all about oswald, including the fact that he had a vantage point on the route. if that is so, i don't know. i didn't know. mr. mccloy. somebody in the fbi knew it, didn't they? mr. bouck. i have no record to know that. they knew certain information. i have no record that would indicate they knew all of the derogatory information. mr. mccloy. i don't know i would say they knew all the derogatory information but they certainly knew the vantage point and they certainly knew the defection elements. mr. bouck. i know they knew he was in dallas. whether they recognized that as being on the route, i don't know that. mr. mccloy. i think the record shows he was employed there, or the deposition shows. mr. bouck. i don't know that. mr. stern. is it of key importance to what you say now regarding the information on oswald before the assassination to identify his vantage point? if you would take that away from the other characteristics does he then not become a threat? mr. bouck. he would not meet the criteria of a threat as we had it at that time, if you take that away. mr. stern. and the criterion was---- mr. bouck. that there be some specific indication that a possible danger to the president existed. mr. dulles. off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. mccloy. back on the record. mr. stern. well, mr. bouck, if the pivotal ingredient is his employment at that depository, is that because that showed some, to your mind, some intention, some desire to be on the route, because access to the route---- mr. bouck. no; it relates him to the president. this, i think if all the information that was known about him, indicates that he was a pretty untrustworthy individual, i think there was no indication that that untrustworthiness might be of a danger to the president until you associated that he had a vantage point where he might use it toward the president. there was nothing previous that indicated that the president might be an object of this, and---- mr. stern. as far as any of us know, any citizen had pretty much the same sort of access to the parade route. is there any difference---- mr. bouck. we would feel the same way if we knew this much derogatory type of information about any citizen if we knew he had a particular vantage point on a route. mr. stern. but a citizen, possessing all the characteristics you believe to have been known about oswald but not having access through employment or residence or some comparable relationship to the parade route, would not have been of concern to you under the criteria and practices in effect at the time of dallas, is that what you are saying? mr. bouck. i think a little broader than that. access of any kind, working in a hotel or any point where he might have unusual access. if you broaden the question to that, i would say that is what i am saying. mr. stern. unusual access? mr. bouck. yes. mr. mccloy. if i might intervene here, if i understand it. i don't know whether it is good but there is speculation and conjecture in it, i don't know if you will get far with it. probably if you had known all the derogatory information that you now know was accumulated in all of the agencies of the government irrespective of where this fellow was in dallas you might have kept your eye on him. mr. bouck. again, that would be speculation. i don't know. it wouldn't be normal. it wouldn't fit within our normal category unless we knew he was--he had a vantage point. we know of tremendous numbers of people who are bad people that we don't keep an eye on. mr. mccloy. yes; but suppose you knew these men, or suppose you encountered some of these defectors. i am told there are others, wouldn't you have been somewhat negligent if you didn't check up on him when he got to the vantage point in dallas? mr. bouck. if we had checked up, i don't know whether we would have gone beyond that. mr. mccloy. i don't suggest that but you might have kept him under surveillance. mr. bouck. we would have taken note of this. mr. stern. would that have been true if he had not been known to be living in dallas, if his last known address was new orleans? mr. bouck. if he had not been living in dallas we would not have checked on on him in this trip area even with the other information. mr. stern. suppose he had been living in fort worth? mr. bouck. well, if we had known he were living in fort worth that would be the same as dallas, to us. when we speak of a city we speak of the driving distance or the commutable distance to a city. mr. stern. we will move very quickly to questions concerning oswald and i would like to go back now and cover the details of your file search and other prs activity for the texas trip, the total texas trip. if you would start with the first date you heard that the president was preparing to travel to texas and tell us what your section did and what you found. mr. bouck. our first knowledge of the texas trip was on november when the advance agent, agent lawson, reported to the protective research section that the president was going to texas, and that dallas was one of the stops. a check at that time was made of our trip index, and no cards were found on dallas to indicate that there was an uncontrolled dangerous person in dallas. two such people were found at the houston stop. this information was imparted to mr. lawson at that time. mr. stern. excuse me, could you identify the two houston cases from exhibit ? mr. bouck. yes; they are in here. case no. is one. this individual is a local law-enforcement officer that was not considered awfully dangerous but again because he might have an unusual vantage point we made arrangements each time to see that he was not used in any way that he might have a vantage point. case is the other one, which is a case that goes back many, many years of an individual who has been repeatedly threatening but we have been unable to do much about. she has been in and out of mental hospitals. mr. stern. so these were the two cases? mr. bouck. the two cases. mr. stern. that were in the trip-index file involving the jurisdiction of the houston field office? mr. bouck. yes. a notation was made at that time for the individual in charge of that section and on the th he again checked that file. he pulled out these two cards, and he checked the checkup file and concluded that these in the state of texas were the only two uncontrolled people that we should alert the field about, and he pulled the case jackets on these two people and reviewed those, and then caused an alert to be prepared on these two people, the original being sent to the white house detail, and the copy being sent to the field office. mr. stern. these are the same two houston cases? mr. bouck. yes. mr. stern. was there an additional case added on the th? mr. bouck. no; not by our section. there were just the two. there were cases picked up in the field on some of these, but we only sent out the two cases as being in our opinion of protective concern on that trip. mr. stern. would you look, mr. bouck, please, at the first page of exhibit , the first text page, the third paragraph, the middle of the paragraph, it says, "on november , , the above indicated clerical employee prepared an office memorandum advising the name of one prs subject who had previously been referred to the interested offices and was still of concern and furnishing identifying data on a new prs subject who had not been previously included in the alert." mr. bouck. these were the two cases. the one we had alerted on a previous trip, the deputy sheriff one, had not been, that had occurred since a previous trip and so this was the first time that we had told the detail and the field office that this individual should be looked at. making a total of two. mr. stern. were there entries in the trip-index file then for the other cities that the president was planning to visit or the other field office areas, dallas, san antonio, and el paso? mr. bouck. no; there were no cards on any of the other three cities, indicating uncontrolled people. mr. stern. so in the four field offices covering the entire state of texas there were in the trip index only two cards both of them residing in the houston office area? mr. bouck. that is correct. mr. stern. now, do you know what was done in dallas to supplement this investigation into potentially harmful people? mr. bouck. dallas made contact with the local authorities, they had contact with the fbi, they had contact with the local police in dallas, and also some of the suburbs, particularly denton, tex., in which they received information on several situations and several individuals in addition to, well, they received this information. mr. stern. are those cases summarized in exhibit ? mr. bouck. yes; they are. i think the first one of those is page no. of exhibit , which involved people who had attempted to embarrass ambassador stevenson. also page is a further one. i believe they also received information on some scurrilous literature that was being circulated in dallas at that time from the fbi. mr. stern. now, referring to the visit of ambassador stevenson in october, i believe---- mr. bouck. yes. mr. stern. was anything done at the time of that visit in october to identify the people who were participating in the obstreperous conduct that occurred? mr. bouck. i do not know. it was nothing---- mr. stern. so far as prs was concerned? mr. bouck. nothing was done by prs. mr. stern. these individuals did come to light in the liaison activities just prior to president kennedy's trip to dallas? mr. bouck. yes, sir. mr. stern. and they were then, as i understand it, placed in your permanent records and are now in your trip-index files? mr. bouck. that is correct. mr. stern. mr. bouck, since the stevenson trip received a great deal of publicity and i take it you knew about it at the time or prs knew about it, can you tell us why there was no effort in october to determine who these people were for possible use if president kennedy or a later president should consider a trip to dallas? mr. bouck. well, there are a great many disturbances and activities around, and we have never felt that we should document those per se inasmuch as they did not constitute a jurisdiction--they were not within our jurisdiction except when the president went to an area, so it has always been something that we attempted to resolve when we had jurisdiction in the area because the president was going there, rather than engage in investigative activity that was not within our jurisdiction just per se, whenever there was a disturbance. mr. stern. i am not sure i follow that. i take it your jurisdiction is to determine, perhaps not to act upon, but to determine people who might be threats to the president or vice-president. mr. bouck. these people were not judged at that time to be threats to the president, necessarily. mr. stern. i see. their activities in connection with ambassador stevenson's visit did not seem to you at that time---- mr. bouck. they did not fit our criteria as being a direct indication that the president might be harmed, but then when the president went to that area, then a more serious connotation was put on those people and they were investigated and were identified and pictures were made of them and given to the agents. mr. stern. that is because the president was then going to that area? mr. bouck. yes; that is right. mr. stern. suppose the president was going to another area to which these individuals had moved in between the stevenson visit and the hypothetical presidential trip. you would have had no record of them, no way of knowing about them, is that correct? mr. bouck. no; that would have to--unless it had been reported to me they had moved, then the only way we would pick that up would be in the local liaison which begins some days before a trip. mr. stern. but there would have been no basis to report to you that they had moved as i understand it because they would not have been persons of concern to you merely because of their involvement in the stevenson affair? mr. bouck. that is probably right. mr. mccloy. to summarize your testimony a bit, i gather that the fundamental criterion that you were looking for is the potential threat to the health and life of the president of the united states, that you are not a general security agency of the united states, but are directed particularly to that particular objective, and one of the things that alerts you most is the threat, and then you examine that threat to determine whether or not it is a serious threat. a lot of elements enter into that and at that point when it does become a serious threat, then you put it on your alert files, is that abut right? mr. bouck. that is a very good---- mr. mccloy. furthermore---- mr. bouck. analysis. mr. mccloy. flowing from that the mere fact that a man or woman was a defector, or a man is a member of a political organization doesn't in itself embody the threat to the united states, to the president, the person of the president of the united states. mr. bouck. right. mr. mccloy. it is only as there is some additional element that causes you to fear that there is a potential menace that you put in that category you have been talking about? mr. bouck. yes, sir. mr. stern. i think we might illustrate that, mr. mccloy, by a series of abstracts of cases that mr. bouck has prepared. i show you commission exhibit no. for identification. mr. bouck. yes. mr. stern. and would you describe that and summarize very briefly the cases involved there which i think are intended to typify, are they not---- mr. bouck. yes; i prepared this and the thought was that the commission might be interested in a couple of examples of how the prs function has been helpful in protection, and so three cases have been presented in this paper. mr. stern. mr. bouck, have you anything you would like to add, any clarification, any amplification of the matters we have discussed this morning? mr. bouck. i don't believe so. i think mr. mccloy's summary probably exceeds anything i could give, and i think it is quite good and reflects, i believe, what we were trying to get at here. mr. stern. have you reviewed the memoranda and other exhibits that you have identified this morning and do you have any corrections or additions to make to those? mr. bouck. no, sir; i think they are accurate. mr. stern. mr. chairman, i would like to request the admission of all the exhibits that mr. bouck has identified for us this morning. i have no further questions. mr. mccloy. they may be admitted. (the documents referred to, previously marked as commission exhibit nos. through , were received in evidence.) mr. mccloy. i have one more question i would like to ask you. in the light of what you know now about the whole episode, have you come to any conclusions as to how you ought to operate in the future other than you did in the dallas situation? mr. bouck. as mr. carswell has mentioned, of course, a great deal of study is being conducted. i think there are a number of other things that can be done. great problems arise as to human rights and constitutional rights and costs and resources and just sheer--dealing with just sheer volumes of millions of people, and i do not feel i would want to give final judgment as to whether we should do these things until we have completed all of these studies, but perhaps there will be some that will---- mr. mccloy. do you at this stage have any definite ideas about any steps that ought to be taken for the added protection of the president? mr. bouck. well, i have quite a lot of them which are incorporated in this study. i have been, and as i understand it, the commission perhaps will have the benefit of that but i have been very heavily involved in many, many ways in this study, and as to the final conclusions, of course, i think maybe it goes all the way to the congress to decide the practicality of some of this. mr. mccloy. i am sure it does. mr. bouck. i just don't quite feel in a position to say that i would want to recommend most of these things without reservation at this time. if i might, without presuming to evade your question, if we could delay that a little bit until we have completed this rather massive look that we are now taking. mr. mccloy. very well. thank you very much for your cooperation, and very much obliged to you and the treasury department for helping us. mr. bouck. thank you, sir. mr. mccloy. to achieve our--perform our duties. thank you. we will adjourn until o'clock. (whereupon, at p.m., the president's commission recessed.) afternoon session testimony of winston g. lawson, accompanied by fred b. smith, deputy general counsel, treasury department the president's commission reconvened at p.m. mr. mccloy. mr. lawson, you know the general purpose of what we are here for? mr. lawson. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. in the way of trying to get as much information as we can, not only regarding the assassination of the president but also some background as to the steps that have been taken to protect him and as well as perhaps to take some testimony with the thought that we might be able to recommend measures that might insure future security of our presidents. i will ask you, if you will, to rise and i will swear you. do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give in this hearing will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. lawson. i do. mr. mccloy. go ahead. mr. stern. mr. lawson, would you state your name, age, and address for the record, please? mr. lawson. winston george lawson, years old, vista drive, apartment . falls church, va. mr. stern. what was your education at the college level? mr. lawson. a bachelor of arts with a major in history and government. mr. stern. from what? mr. lawson. university of buffalo, . mr. stern. briefly, what was your employment experience from to ? mr. lawson. from the time of my graduation after a couple of months working for a firm that my father worked for, i became a wholesale carpet salesman until december , and then i joined the carnation co., manufacturers of milk products nationally, and was a representative in various capacities for them in new york state. in , march, i went in the army and i had been a reservist and was called up as a cic agent. i had weeks of basic infantry, basic training, went to the cic counterintelligence school in holabird, md.--fort holabird, md.--outside of baltimore, and then was assigned eventually to the lexington field office where i did general counterintelligence work for the army, background investigations, and some interviews of the prisoners, pow's from the korean war. after i returned to civilian life in , i returned to the carnation milk co. and had various sales or public relations jobs with them in poughkeepsie, n.y., syracuse, n.y., generally covering most of the state of new york. i applied to enter the secret service approximately years before i was accepted, and entered the secret service in october in the syracuse field office. mr. stern. will you tell us of your experience in the secret service, describing briefly each assignment of work? mr. mccloy. when you say cic agent you mean---- mr. lawson. counterintelligence agent; yes, sir, in the army. i was hired as an agent in the syracuse field office, and did general investigative work in the syracuse area, part of new york state, with time out for a special assignment during the eisenhower administration for approximately days when i had to come to washington to replace some agents who were advancing some large trips in south america. i was away from the syracuse office in treasury school for weeks and i was away from the syracuse office for weeks while i attended secret service school. i was here in secret service school during the inauguration of president kennedy. the school was let out for that day so that they could take advantage of the agents that were here in town for post assignments. after returning to syracuse for approximately weeks i was transferred to washington on the white house detail in march . mr. stern. and you have been a member of the white house detail. mr. lawson. of the white house detail. mr. stern. since then? mr. lawson. yes. mr. stern. what has your experience been, mr. lawson, in doing advance work for presidential or vice presidential trips? mr. lawson. i have assisted on some advances and i have had the overall responsibility on some others. some of my overall responsibilities were billings, mont.; little rock; buffalo and niagara falls, n.y.; cherry point, n.c. mr. stern. approximately how many trips did you have the major responsibility for, and how many did you assist on in doing advance work? mr. lawson. i have assisted on five or six and had the major responsibility on seven or eight, i believe, and then have done what we call local advances here in the washington area, if the president is going to a dinner or to a speech or to a function here in washington. mr. stern. do all members of the white house detail do advance work for presidential trips? mr. lawson. yes, sir; after they have been there a few months perhaps, or sometimes a little less, depending on the need of advances, they are assigned to go out and help on some advances, and then they will work regular shift work for a while and then they may be assigned other advances and then a little bit later have the responsibility of one. mr. mccloy. mr. ford, this is mr. lawson from the secret service. he is just giving us his qualifications and giving his experience up to the time that he was given responsibility in connection with making preparations, advance preparations, for presidential trips. mr. stern. when you are not doing advance work, mr. lawson, what are your general responsibilities? mr. lawson. i am assigned to a regular shift, of which there are three on the white house detail, and we work weeks to , weeks midnights, weeks days. that is generally because if there is a presidential movement here in washington, usually if it is a daytime engagement the -to- shift will have to come in and work extra. if it is an evening engagement, why, the -to- shift will have to work extra. and then as the president takes trips, if we are assigned to work that day we would also go along as a regular working agent, accompanying him or going just ahead of him. mr. stern. when you do the advance work for a trip, do you file reports in connection with the work you have done? mr. lawson. yes, sir. mr. stern. do you typically file a report somewhere in the middle of the advance and then at the end, or how does it work? what are your responsibilities? mr. lawson. until just prior to the dallas trip we had a report which we tried to get out if it was at all possible and send back to washington, the complete report at that time, and then write a supplemental after we returned to washington, with any changes. the first advance and the advance that i had in billings, mont., and in little rock, ark., i was able to do that. those were in september and october of . however, they changed the reporting system so that we send a preliminary report, and it was the first one of this type that i had had after the dallas trip. so this one has a preliminary report and also a final survey report. mr. dulles. how much forenotice did you have of the dallas trip; do you recall? mr. lawson. yes, sir; i was notified of it on november , which is quite a bit of notice. mr. dulles. so you could start your preparations for it on november , approximately? mr. lawson. i was notified that there would be a trip, but that i would have more information on november ; yes, sir; and i was given more information on november . mr. dulles. and when was it in that period that you were notified that dallas was to be visited? mr. lawson. on november . mr. dulles. on november ? mr. lawson. i was told that i would be going to dallas, but they didn't know very many of the details yet and wouldn't until november . mr. stern. mr. lawson, i show you a document marked for identification commission no. . can you identify that? mr. lawson. yes, sir; i can. it is my preliminary report for the dallas trip. mr. stern. and that was prepared when? mr. lawson. that was prepared in dallas, late afternoon or early evening tuesday, november , and sent to washington by airplane. mr. stern. mr. chairman, may this be admitted? mr. mccloy. it may be admitted. (commission exhibit no. was received in evidence.) mr. stern. i now show you a document marked for identification commission no. . can you identify that, mr. lawson? mr. lawson. yes, sir; that is a final survey report which i prepared upon my return from dallas. mr. stern. and that is the final report in this preliminary-final report arrangement---- mr. lawson. yes, sir. mr. stern. which you have described? and can you identify this additional document marked for identification commission exhibit no. ? mr. lawson. yes, sir; this is a statement of the activities that i had, to the best of my knowledge, in connection with the presidential visit to dallas covering my activities only pertaining to the dallas trip from november through . mr. stern. this, i take it, was not a routine report? mr. lawson. no, sir; it was not. mr. stern. it was prepared because of what transpired at dallas? mr. chairman, may we have admitted and ? mr. mccloy. they may be admitted. (commission exhibits nos. and were received in evidence.) mr. stern. now, beginning november , can you tell us the preparations for your trip that you did here in washington? mr. lawson. yes. acting on the instruction to come into the office on november for the additional instructions that i had been told i would receive, mr. roy kellerman, who is an assistant special agent in charge of the detail, gave myself and other members of the advance teams going out what information they had up to that time on their respective stops. mr. kellerman told me the name of mr. jack puterbaugh, whom i would meet on an airplane taking the advance agents to dallas the next week. i contacted the white house communications agency to see if they were sending a communications representative along to help out as they usually did, and was given his name. mr. kellerman gave me the name of a car contact in the dallas area so that we would be able to obtain cars for the motorcade, which is normal. mr. stern. these are cars, as i understand it---- mr. lawson. for the presidential party. mr. stern. furnished to you by---- mr. lawson. the ford motor co. mr. stern. by people in the area that you visit---- mr. lawson. yes, sir. mr. stern. for use during the visit of the president? were you told anything about the assistance you would have in doing advance work for the dallas trip? mr. lawson. could you be more explicit, please? mr. stern. whether you would have another agent assigned to do the work with you? mr. lawson. oh, yes. i had been told earlier, sometime between november and , that another agent would be accompanying me, but, because of the presidential trips which were occurring right at that time, that they would not be able to send out one at the same time, and he would have to join me later in dallas after some of the other trips had been taken care of. mr. stern. what were the usual arrangements as far as assignments? mr. lawson. quite often two agents would go out at the same time; yes, sir. mr. stern. and your responsibilities and those of this other agent when he joined you pertained only to dallas; is that correct? mr. lawson. yes, sir. mr. stern. you were not concerned with any other city in the president's route? mr. lawson. not on that occasion; no, sir. mr. stern. and each of those cities had its own advance agent or agents? mr. lawson. that is correct. mr. stern. doing the same work you were doing? mr. lawson. that is correct. mr. stern. when, in fact, did the other agent join you? mr. lawson. on monday evening. may i refer to the date of this? mr. stern. please. mr. lawson. november ; monday evening. mr. stern. now, what steps did you take in washington before you left, with respect to determining the names and other information about persons who might be in the dallas area and who might be regarded as potential threats to the president? mr. lawson. i went--on november , after leaving mr. kellerman's office, i went to the office in the executive office building where our agents of the protective research section are, and notified agents at that location that i was being assigned the advance for dallas, tex., trip, the date of this trip, and that i requested them to check their files and determine as to whether i should have the name of any individual in the dallas area who was of record to us as an active subject. mr. stern. was this request made in writing? mr. lawson. it was oral, sir. mr. stern. is it usually made that way, orally? do you ever make a written request? mr. lawson. i have never done so. i don't know about the other individuals. mr. stern. what did they tell you? mr. lawson. i was told after waiting there a little while that there were no subjects of record in the dallas area, of active prs individuals that we would expect to harm the president. mr. stern. and this check was made while you were present in the office? mr. lawson. yes, sir; that is correct. representative ford. how long did it take, for example? mr. lawson. i believe i was there approximately minutes. not much more than minutes, sir. representative ford. in other words, they made this check on your behalf in that period of time? mr. lawson. yes, sir. representative ford. do you know how they went about it? did you observe how they went about it? mr. lawson. in looking back i can recall the individuals going to certain files, but i have never worked in the prs section and i only know general information about it. representative ford. you asked somebody to check on the names of people who might be a threat in dallas? mr. lawson. that is correct, sir. representative ford. and within a period of minutes they came back and said there were no names? mr. lawson. that is right, sir. mr. dulles. what was their answer again? i didn't quite clearly hear it when you said it the first time. mr. lawson. i don't believe i could give you an exact answer. mr. dulles. in general what was your recollection? mr. lawson. there were no prs subjects, active prs subjects which would be a threat to the president to our knowledge in the dallas area in the files. mr. dulles. and would you define prs? mr. lawson. protective research section. mr. stern. was there a file that you yourself checked preliminary to your trip? mr. lawson. i don't believe so. mr. stern. not a file of individuals but a file that might be helpful to you in your advance work for dallas? mr. lawson. we have files of past trips, some of president eisenhower's. i am not sure how long ago they go back because they are probably taken out and put some place else periodically. but for example we have all of president kennedy's trips right now plus president johnson's current ones, and an agent could if he desired, if he was being assigned to a city, go and see if the president had been there recently, and look in that for names or perhaps if he was going to the same hotel or something, this would give him names of people to contact there. he might obtain information. there was no report on dallas for president kennedy. mr. stern. you checked? mr. lawson. yes, sir. mr. stern. and found no report. this file would contain the reports such as your final report which we have marked " ," is that right? mr. lawson. that is correct. mr. stern. there was nothing in there---- mr. lawson. no, sir. mr. stern. reflecting any recent trip to the dallas area? mr. lawson. that is correct. mr. stern. did anything else transpire before you left for dallas as far as advance preparation? mr. lawson. i picked up paraphernalia that we use, sometimes more than other times depending on the type of trip it is. if there is to be a motorcade as there is in this case, we usually get car numbers for the windows and some identification pins for people who will not have identification supplied by a local committee, and other paraphernalia of this type, and i obtained those and took them with me. mr. stern. did anything else happen before you left for dallas? mr. lawson. i called the dallas office, the agent in charge was not in, and talked to another agent, told him that i was coming down with other agents on the texas trip and would be dropped off at approximately : on the evening, tuesday evening, of the next week, and---- mr. stern. what was the date? mr. lawson. i believe that is the th of november. that mr. puterbaugh and chief warrant officer bales from the communications agency, white house, would be accompanying me, and would they make arrangements to please have us met at the airport and for rooms. and then dictated a confirming memo before i left on the eighth. representative ford. did you have any other contacts with prs other than this one? mr. lawson. no, sir; i did not. mr. stern. you then went to dallas on november ? mr. lawson. that is correct. mr. stern. what did you do in dallas from the time of your arrival in connection with trying to learn about people who might be potentially dangerous to the president? mr. lawson. i was aware of the so-called stevenson incident and so i didn't have to be told that there. mr. stern. how did you become aware of that? mr. lawson. i had read it in the paper, and so without making inquiries i was aware of that when i went there. mr. stern. you received no specific advice about that from prs? mr. lawson. no, sir; i was aware of this fact. and then of course it was after i arrived there people were talking about it also. and although to my knowledge none of the people involved in that particular incident had threatened the president or were known to us as threatening the president, i asked agent howlett if he would view some films of this incident that i understood one of the local tv stations had. i was informed of this by a local executive of the local paper who was on the host committee, that they had such films. and agent howlett did view these and had some still shots made of these individuals, although we still did not know that they were against president kennedy or might harm him in any way. this was an extra on my part. i had asked agent howlett if he had any contact with any individuals, informants in the area that he might have, that the office might have about rightwing elements and what they might do, and was told that prior to my arrival in dallas they had received some information on some rightwing activity, and that an investigation had been made, and that he also had talked to an informant or two i believe. but to their knowledge there was nothing in the radical-type rightwing movement so-called in the dallas area that they knew of that was going to harm president kennedy. mr. stern. did anything else occur? did you have any discussions of this problem with the local police? mr. lawson. we talked with the local police on many occasions as to what would happen if there were demonstrations, pickets and so forth, if they knew of any activity, and i believe s. a. howlett from the dallas office did the same thing. the papers, the newspapers in dallas had a few articles on how watchful the police were going to be of the crowd, with particular emphasis on disturbances or pickets, and some of the local committee, host committee, as well as some of the local political groups in the area were worried that perhaps the police would be overzealous in controlling picketing or disturbances, and asked me if i could find out just what the police were planning to do in this event, that there were some wild rumors as to just what the police were going to do. and because we like to have our local agents who have to work with the police in these areas maintain the liaison i asked mr. sorrels if he would contact the chief of police and find out exactly what they planned to do in relation to picketing, and discussed the new ordinance that had been passed on the monday, november i believe it is, prior to the president's visit. and we were told that the police would accept peaceful picketing, but that the new ordinance was strictly to give them some power to act if pickets or individuals were interfering with lawful assembled groups, if they were trying to make noise to drown out people who were bona fide speakers at lawful groups, or if they were trying to interfere with any person entering or departing a lawful assembly. mr. stern. did anything occur in connection with a circular that was being circulated at the time? mr. lawson. yes sir; i learned of a circular which had been distributed in various parts of the city, blue in color with president kennedy's picture on it, and a list of grievances against him called treasonist to the united states. i was given a copy of the circular in the police chief's office, and requested mr. sorrels, our local agent in charge--he had received a copy of this circular, and i asked him to check with the district attorney's office, the federal district attorney, to see if it was against the federal law. at quick reading myself it didn't look like it was a violation of federal law but i was in no position to judge it, and i could see no direct threat. mr. dulles. what federal law did you have in mind then? mr. lawson. under our jurisdiction, sir, of protection of the president and investigation of letters or other threats in connection to the president. mr. dulles. this circular that you referred to is this the advertisement in the papers? mr. lawson. no. mr. dulles. was this something different? mr. lawson. i never saw the advertisement in the paper the morning of the d, and the first knowledge i had of that particular advertisement was after i had returned from dallas. (discussion off the record.) representative ford. what page? mr. stern. exhibit to the attachment of exhibits. mr. lawson, i show you a one-page document marked "commission exhibit no. " for identification with two photographs of president kennedy, and the title "wanted for treason." is this a copy, a photograph of the circular you have been describing? mr. lawson. it is, sir. mr. stern. may it be admitted? mr. mccloy. it may be admitted. (commission exhibit no. was received in evidence.) mr. stern. the newspaper advertisement was a series of questions addressed to president kennedy asking why he had done certain things. mr. dulles. i remember seeing it. have you any idea as to the number of these circulars that were distributed, any estimate? mr. lawson. no sir; i have no idea how many were put out. they appeared in certain sections of the city i was told. the police told me they had no idea who had put them out or when they had been put out, and mr. sorrels said that some had been brought over to his office by the fbi, which is how he had known about it, and that neither he nor they knew the source of them. mr. dulles. and nobody was apprehended or seen in the act of circulating these. mr. lawson. not to my knowledge. mr. dulles. by any authority as far as you know? mr. lawson. that is right. mr. stern. in respect to questions like what steps are taken to assure the security of the president on the trip and how to work out liaison arrangements with local federal and municipal authorities, what is your understanding of the division of responsibility between yourself as the advance agent and the head of the local secret service office? mr. lawson. the advance agent who goes out from washington is responsible for the overall stop, for making the advance arrangements, and on the day of the movement would have authority over the other agents at the stop already or the agents accompanying the president, and of course the agent in charge of the detail coming from washington would also have authority naturally over the agents. however, he is just arriving in the city probably for the first time, and the advance agent would have certain knowledge about certain events and would have more authority than he does in certain respects or he would ask his advice. so that there is a boss over the agents which would be the advance agent and also the gentleman in charge of the detail coming from washington. the local agent in charge of the local office assists the advance agent in all of his arrangements in the territory that is to be visited, and the local agent in charge conducts such investigations to assist the advance agent, and the local agent in charge would be in charge of any liaison with local officials, local police officials. mr. stern. insofar as the concern is for persons who might be dangerous or threatening to the president, the agent in charge of the dallas office would be responsible for liaison arrangements with local authorities but you ultimately would be responsible as the delegate of the head of the white house detail, for decisions as to what steps should be taken? mr. lawson. that is correct. mr. dulles. what police powers, if any, can you exercise in that situation in a sovereign state? mr. lawson. i believe the actual police powers as such would only be in the event of actual knowledge of a threat on the president's life, anything that we have jurisdiction of. if we hear of an oral threat or see a written threat on the life of the president or see someone attempt to take his life, this is our jurisdiction, and we would be able to act as such. mr. dulles. you could effect an arrest. mr. lawson. yes, sir; however, anything which would fall under the jurisdiction of the local police such as firearms laws or picketing laws or disturbances or anything like that we have to depend upon the local police to use their jurisdiction. mr. mccloy. suppose the president is shot and you apprehend the murderer. can you arrest him and put him into custody? mr. lawson. yes, sir; i could arrest him for the shooting of the president, but it is my understanding actually for the murder, no, but because he tried to take the life of the president i could. mr. mccloy. i understand there may be some question, there is a gap in the law there that it fits no federal crime. mr. lawson. i will have to refer to counsel here as to just where it stops, when it becomes murder actually where we have no jurisdiction, and an attempt on the life of the president. mr. dulles. let's take a less-clear case. if you suspected mr. x was a man who was going to interfere with the president, although he had committed no overt act, could you move in then or would you call upon the local police? mr. lawson. if he was a suspect, sir, and we had a belief that he might try to harm the president while he was in dallas, i would try to assign a secret service agent in conjunction with local police authorities, to watch him. if it was a function where it was by invitation only or there was some kind of control as to how the people got in, you would make sure that he did not get in because you were watchful of the ticketholders, et cetera. however the function was to be handled; if it was a ball park where anyone could buy a ticket to go in, then we would just have to have the man watched, or perhaps the local police themselves somehow could keep him from going to that ball park. but i as an agent could not. mr. dulles. even if the president were in attendance in the ball park? mr. lawson. yes, sir; unless there was some reason that i could have him arrested, i would not be able to do so. but i would have him watched if i knew that there might be a threat. mr. dulles. am i asking questions that should go to counsel? mr. smith. i don't have any disagreement with what agent lawson has said so far. mr. dulles. is there not some confusion of jurisdiction though here? mr. mccloy. isn't the panel studying this? mr. stern. we are. mr. mccloy. that is what i thought. the panel is working on the law. mr. dulles. you are working on the law? mr. stern. yes. mr. dulles. you have got all the evidence that you want? mr. stern. yes; and there is a large area where federal jurisdiction does not exist except on some strained theory of conspiracy. there is no substantive federal jurisdiction with respect to great areas. mr. lawson. might i add one thing please. the white house detail agents are supposed to protect the life of the president wherever he is. if there is a shot from the crowd or something happens, whether the president is hit or not, get him away, get him out, and still protect him. however, if you were riding on a car and actually saw someone do something, and you were able to get to that individual, you would then hold that person. but a white house detail agent would not drop the president and then go look for someone who might have tried to harm him at the time that he is there. that is not our function. mr. stern. turning now to the question of the motorcade route, mr. lawson, what can you tell us about how that was selected? mr. lawson. on november when mr. kellerman was giving me some of the information on the proposed trip to dallas, all of the advance agents for the respective stops were given the current itinerary as prepared by the white house staff for their stops, and for the dallas stop there was a minute time lapse from the time the president landed at the airport until the time that he attended the luncheon, and at the time that i left washington, it had not been decided whether he would attend this luncheon at the trade mart where it later was planned to have it, or at the women's building on the fair grounds. and this figured a great deal in the parade route, the minutes. mr. stern. the minute time interval? mr. lawson. yes, sir. mr. stern. was established for you by the white house? mr. lawson. yes, sir. mr. stern. and were you specifically instructed to prepare a parade route or was this your reaction to the time lag? mr. lawson. this is my function. i wasn't specifically asked to, but this would be the function of the advance agent. mr. stern. were you instructed that there would be a motorcade? mr. lawson. yes, sir. mr. stern. and that is what this minutes was for? mr. lawson. that is correct. mr. stern. how was the actual route determined then once the trade mart had been selected as the site for the luncheon? mr. lawson. various routes were under consideration. we could have gone from the airport direct to the trade mart the way that we should have returned, the -mile route returning from the trade mart to the airport, or we could have taken a city street-type route all the way downtown and all the way back, or we could have taken a freeway downtown and a freeway back. but the route that was chosen was chosen because it was the consensus of opinion that it was probably the best route under the circumstances. it allowed us minutes to go from the airport to the trade mart at the speed that i figured the president would go from past experience with him in advances, and as a regular working agent riding in a followup car. it allowed us to go downtown, which was wanted back in washington, d.c. it afforded us wide streets most of the way, because of the buses that were in the motorcade. it afforded us a chance to have alternative routes if something happened on the motorcade route. it was the type of suburban area a good part of the way where the crowds would be able to be controlled for a great distance, and we figured that the largest crowds would be downtown, which they were, and that the wide streets that we would use downtown would be of sufficient width to keep the public out of our way. prime consideration in a motorcade is to make sure the president isn't stopped unless he plans it himself. you must have room to maneuver, alternative routes to turn off from, room for buses and so forth, and particularly room to keep the public out of the street. mr. stern. what was the extent of your review of the parade route with the local police? mr. lawson. with the local police i went over the entire route on one occasion, went to the various stops at other times and so actually did parts of the route at that time, the part of the route which would be near the stop like the airport and the trade mart. but the actual route i went over with two police officers from the dallas police department. mr. mccloy. by went over you mean you actually drove along the entire route? mr. lawson. we drove it sir, with them taking notes, and them making suggestions and mr. sorrels and i making suggestions. mr. stern. to what extent did they actually participate in the decision that this be the route? mr. lawson. they were asked their advice on possible routes that you could go to the trade mart. mr. stern. and they had no disagreement with the route---- mr. lawson. no, sir. mr. stern. that was actually selected, no criticism of it? what arrangements did you make with the dallas police for security along the route, starting from love field and getting to the trade mart? mr. lawson. a good deal of it was traffic control, both to keep people out of our path as the motorcade progressed so that they would have at least the major intersections covered and as many of the other ones as possible. those which were not, all intersections that were not able to be controlled physically by a policeman or more than one policeman were to be controlled by motorcycles that would hop-skip the motorcade, or other police vehicles in the motorcade. at certain times certain intersections were to be cutoff as we proceeded so that it would allow time for any traffic ahead of us to clear the area before we arrived there. where it was felt from past experience and the type of area that we were passing through there would be large crowds, more police were requested for along the route, and on the routes. mr. stern. foot policemen or motorcycle patrolmen? mr. lawson. both, sir. they were requested at the corners to have more than one policeman, so that there would be policemen for watching the crowd and controlling the crowd, and other policemen who would have jurisdiction over the traffic in the area, so that someone wouldn't be watching the crowd and a car going by him or vice versa. we saw the underpasses or overpasses or bridges that were on the route, and they were requested to have officers, depending on the type of installation there that i just mentioned, the type that it was, either under it or over it, on the underpasses. the railroad lines were checked and here was no rail traffic of a scheduled nature over the two rail crossings that we would pass, none on the way in but two on the way out. however, just to make sure that a switch engine or other trains wouldn't come along about the time we were due there, and then stop the president's motorcade, why we had police stationed at the railroad crossings that were on the same level as the road. mr. stern. what were the instructions that you asked be given to the police who were stationed on overpasses and railroad crossings? mr. lawson. they were requested to keep the people to the sides of the bridge or the overpass so that--or underpass--so that people viewing from a vantage point like that would not be directly over the president's car so that they could either inadvertently knock something off or drop something on purpose or do some other kind of harm. mr. stern. this is all people, not just outside members of the public? mr. lawson. any citizen that was trying to view the motorcade, they were to be kept from right directly over the president's car, if it was a bridge or an underpass. mr. stern. what about the deployment of police on rooftops of buildings at any point along the route? mr. lawson. we had--police were requested at points where i knew that the president would be out of the car for any length of time. mr. stern. and where was that? mr. lawson. at the trade mart and at the airport. mr. mccloy. may i interrupt at this point. during the course of the motorcade while the motorcade was in motion, no matter how slowly, you had no provision for anyone on the roofs? mr. lawson. no, sir. mr. mccloy. or no one to watch the windows? mr. lawson. oh, yes. the police along the area were to watch the crowds and their general area. the agents riding in the followup car as well as myself in the lead car were watching the crowds and the windows and the rooftops as we progressed. mr. mccloy. it was part of your routine duties when you were going through a street in any city, to look at the windows as well as the crowds? mr. lawson. yes, sir; and if the president's car slowed to such a point or the crowd ever pressed in to such a point that people are getting too close to the president, the agents always get out and go along the car. mr. stern. perhaps you had better describe the vehicles and passengers in the motorcade beginning with the pilot car and going, say, through the vice presidential followup car. mr. lawson. at one time i could have probably listed them all by name. mr. stern. no, not their names, but the vehicle order. mr. lawson. the vehicle itself, yes sir. mr. stern. and the agents, the number of agents. mr. lawson. and the function of the vehicle. mr. stern. and the function of the vehicle and the responsibility of the agents in the vehicle. mr. lawson. yes sir. this varies, but in a usual motorcade, as in this particular instance, there is what we call a pilot car. this is usually a local police car that precedes the motorcade some distance, depending on the crowd. it would usually precede it by at least a quarter of a mile. this is to see if there is any kind of a disturbance up ahead far enough so that we are able to take an alternate route if the need arises. it being a police car, it has radio communications with the whole network of the police and also the police at the stops, the ones we have just left and the particular function like the trade mart or airport that we are going to. in this car ride a few command officers of the local police department, and it is their job to make sure that the traffic is stopped as it was planned to be, look out for any disturbances, and in general be a front guard for the motorcade. mr. mccloy. do you have a communications system with the secret service agents for this pilot car? mr. lawson. yes, sir; because the next car in the motorcade is what we call a lead car and it is actually a rolling command car. we try to have a command officer from every jurisdiction of police with a radio net of their own in that vehicle. sometimes if you are in an area where there are state police and local police and sheriff's and quite a few jurisdictions, where it is a long motorcade and you are going through various counties you are not able to have a command officer of every jurisdiction in that. but in dallas the lead ear, the car that i was in directly ahead of the president was a police car, and of course it had a radio that was in contact with the pilot car and any other radio on the police net. in addition to that, i had a portable radio on the secret service white house network. mr. mccloy. was there a secret service agent riding in the pilot car? mr. lawson. no sir; there was not. mr. mccloy. the first secret service agent was---- mr. lawson. in the lead car. mr. mccloy. was in the lead car. i don't know whether you want to--i have got to leave. are you going to ask why they didn't go down main street? mr. stern. yes. mr. mccloy. take care of that. the suggestion was made yesterday--you are going to cover that? (discussion off the record.) representative ford. i would like if i might to follow up with a question which you asked a minute ago on the record. as i recall your testimony, mr. lawson, you indicated that the police who were assigned along the route had the responsibility to check windows and the crowd. is that what you indicated? mr. lawson. and also the agents as they went by; yes sir. it wouldn't be just a police responsibility; no, sir. representative ford. how did the police know they had that responsibility? mr. lawson. in our police meetings, of which we had three or four listed in here, we talked about crowd control and watching the crowd, and of course the agents just do that anyway. that is part of their function. and in the newspaper accounts it said how watchful the police were going to be of all kinds of activity, and actually they requested public assistance, as i recall it, anyone that noticed anything unusual they had asked that they notify the police. representative ford. when you meet with police officials, in this case chief curry, sheriff decker, and who else, is this clearly laid out that the members of their organization have the specific responsibility of checking windows? do you followup to see whether this is actually put in writing to the members of the police force, and the sheriff's department? mr. lawson. no, sir; i do not followup to see if it was put in writing. mr. dulles. you mean an external check don't you? you don't mean going through each building? representative ford. no. as i understood it, policemen have the responsibility to check windows and to look at the crowd, and i was just wondering whether there is any followup to be sure that the chief of police and the sheriff or anybody else actually makes this specific communication to the people in their organizations. mr. lawson. in this particular instance there was not. sometimes on my own advances i have received copies of police directives. sometimes this is covered and sometimes there are other directives. this is not normal though. it is just that the police say "here is a copy of one of our orders." sometimes it is the posting of police, sometimes it is that. in berlin where i was assisting on an advance for president kennedy's trip in june, we received all kinds of information of this type, even to the fact where the police had requested anyone to notify them of anyone that tried to gain entry into their room that didn't belong there, if it was a business office or if it was a private home or if all of a sudden they discovered they had a friend that they never knew they had before and all that. but this is not always done. mr. mccloy. i want to get it clear. in your presence, in the instructions to the police in dallas, did you tell the police to keep their eye on windows as you went along? mr. lawson. i cannot say definitely that i told the police to watch windows. i usually do. on this particular case i cannot say whether i definitely said that. i believe i did, but i would not swear to the fact that i said watch all the windows. mr. mccloy. i have heard it rumored that there was a general routine in the secret service that when you were going through in a motorcade or by car, that the problem of watching windows was so great that you didn't do it. it was only as you came to a stop that it was the standing instructions that then roofs should be watched and places of advantage would be inspected or looked at. is that true? mr. lawson. no, sir; the agents in the motorcade are to watch the route and the rooftops and the windows as they can. of course there were thousands of windows there, over , i believe on that motorcade. but agents are supposed to watch as they go along. representative ford. an advance agent such as yourself goes to talk with local police officials? mr. lawson. yes, sir. representative ford. do you have a checklist? do you have a procedure in writing that you hand to a local law enforcement agent so that he is clear as to the responsibilities of himself and his people? mr. lawson. no, sir; i have no checklist, although myself i have a number of things that i have marked down from past advances and seeing what other individuals do that i usually try to follow. however, every situation is so different. sometimes there are motorcades and sometimes there are not, and it just wouldn't fit every situation. representative ford. but there is no specific list of instructions that the secret service gives to a local law enforcement agency? mr. lawson. no. representative ford. at the time of the presidential visit? mr. lawson. no. representative ford. do you think that it would be helpful? mr. lawson. it would be helpful in a general way. and it could be augmented to fit the situation. representative ford. in other words, if you had general instructions you could give those to the local law enforcement people, and as you say, for special circumstances, or different circumstances, you could augment them at the scene? mr. lawson. i believe it would be helpful. for example, i know that new york police have, because we were up there so often, and i just returned from there yesterday, they have a checklist of their own in the police meetings with the secret service that they go over, what time the arrival is, where he is going to be met, is it a motorcade, is it a helicopter, et cetera. but still there are many more things that should be in there. representative ford. but i would think for every presidential visit there would be certain mandatory things that would have to be done, areas of responsibility of federal officials, areas of responsibility for local officials. mr. lawson. yes, sir. representative ford. such a memorandum or checklist i should think would be helpful in defining the areas of responsibility, being certain that there is no misunderstanding as to whose responsibility it is for a, b, c, or d operations. mr. lawson. i agree. mr. stern. were any arrangements made to inspect buildings along the parade route? mr. lawson. no, sir; other than those buildings that we were stopping at. mr. stern. and this would be? mr. lawson. the trade mart. mr. stern. and love field? mr. lawson. yes, sir. mr. dulles. is it recognized in your business, if it is a fact, that a building that affords a window that looks down parallel with the motorcade is an unusually vulnerable point? do you get the trend of my question? mr. mccloy. parallel rather that at right angles? mr. dulles. yes. mr. lawson. i know that there are some windows that are more vulnerable than others, let's say. mr. dulles. that give a more vulnerable point of attack? mr. lawson. yes, sir; if you were going in a motorcade at or miles an hour and then all of sudden there was some reason why something narrowed down and you had to slow up or you knew there was going to be a big crowd here and the president would probably slow his vehicle like he usually did for big crowds and stand up and wave, then you would be more concerned about those windows in that area than other areas. this motorcade to my knowledge, we went or miles an hour through most of it except the downtown section at about or . mr. mccloy. or did you say? mr. lawson. yes, sir; to miles an hour. mr. dulles. in this case i assume that if anyone had been looking at windows, the car that would have seen the rifle and the man would have been a car several cars back from the president's car, is that not correct? mr. mccloy. it might have been the other. representative ford. the testimony of one of these young men that we had, if it is accurate, i would have thought that the lead car might have seen the book depository. mr. stern. we will hear testimony from another passenger in the lead car, mr. sorrels, who was in charge of the dallas secret service office, that as the car turned from houston onto elm, he saw people in the windows of the school book depository building. he cannot recall seeing anyone on the sixth floor, and it is more likely that he saw people on the fifth floor from his descriptions. he saw some negro employees. but he could see from the lead car people in the book depository building as it came in view around the corner. mr. mccloy. did you see anybody in the school book depository? mr. lawson. no, sir; at this point just as we started around that corner i asked chief curry if it was not true that we were probably minutes from the trade mart, and it is quite usual to make a radio call to your next point of stop that you are minutes away. therefore right about the time we turned that corner and were a little ways past it, i am sure i was speaking on the radio, because the white house communications agency has about the time i gave the minutes away warning signal, and within seconds after that the shots were fired. representative ford. as you came or as the lead car came down houston street---- mr. lawson. yes, sir. representative ford. you were facing the texas school depository? mr. lawson. right. representative ford. did you look at or scan that building? mr. lawson. i do not, no, because part of my job is to look backwards at the president's car. the speed of the motorcade is controlled by the president's car, unless is it is an emergency situation. if he stands up and is waving at the crowd and there are quite a few crowds then, of course, the car goes slower. if the density of the crowd is quite scarce or there is a time factor why you are going faster. so the person in the lead car in this rolling command car usually keeps turning around and watching the president's car. if his car comes up on our bumper that means we are not going fast enough and we should go faster, and you tell the command officer to call the motorcycles, the pilot car, et cetera, to move out faster. if you notice that his car is dropping back from you, that means their car wants to go slower and you do the same thing in reverse. so i was watching the crowds along the sides, requesting chief curry to move motorcycles up or back, depending on the crowd, move them up towards the president's car because at certain times people were almost out to the car, and to use them as kind of a wedge. other times they were able to drop back or go forward, so that i was looking back a good deal of the time, watching his car, watching the sides, watching the crowds, giving advice or asking advice from the chief and also looking ahead to the known hazards like overpasses, underpasses, railroads, et cetera. representative ford. but as the lead car turned from main onto houston and proceeded toward elm, you were more preoccupied with looking at the president? mr. lawson. i don't know whether i was looking sideways or backwards then, but i do recall noticing the book depository building and that corner and then deciding that we must be about minutes away, and asking chief curry if this was not so and then making a radio broadcast. representative ford. so as you drove down houston street, you didn't have an opportunity to look at the texas school depository? mr. lawson. i may have, but i don't remember if i saw this. i was doing so many things all at once. representative ford. what was sorrels' responsibility at this point? mr. lawson. his responsibility would be again to watch the crowds and the windows a little bit more than i because it was my responsibility to be watching the presidential car. mr. stern. he was sitting in the rear right, was he not? mr. lawson. yes, sir; and i was in the right front. representative ford. he didn't have the responsibility of looking back like you did? mr. lawson. not as much as i would have; no, sir. representative ford. in light of the problem of trying to have individuals in numerous buildings, inspecting the buildings and so forth, is it desirable to have more people in another car ahead of the lead car for the purpose of scanning buildings? mr. lawson. giving a personal opinion now, i would say that that would be a good factor. however, if someone stayed back from the window until you went by and then stuck his gun out the window, why it might not be as good. representative ford. it wouldn't be any worse. mr. lawson. no, sir; but if they did see something that wasn't a likely occurrence, then they could broadcast over the radio stop the president or turn right or turn left. representative ford. but as i understand your responsibilities in the lead car, it doesn't appear that you had an opportunity to do the scanning? mr. lawson. no, sir. representative ford. which was necessary. mr. lawson. no, sir; i would not. representative ford. so you are really left up to one individual in the lead car in the secret service for that purpose? mr. lawson. yes. representative ford. i raise the question whether that is adequate for the overall purpose. mr. smith. sir, i don't want to interfere with the procedures but could i ask a question off the record? (discussion off the record.) mr. mccloy. i think you might go on the record with this. there has been some question as to whether we are referring directly only to the lead car or whether to all the personnel in the cavalcade. i gather, mr. ford, you were referring to the personnel in the lead car as distinguished from the other secret service personnel and other police in the motorcade as a whole? representative ford. that is correct. i am cognizant of the fact we have a followup car. what are the responsibilities of those in the followup car? mr. mccloy. by followup car do you mean the president's car because there will be secret service men in the president's car too? representative ford. there was only one on this occasion, or two, the driver and mr. kellerman. the driver was certainly preoccupied, and as i remember mr. kellerman's testimony, he was so engaged he didn't have an opportunity to do the kind of scanning that would appear to be necessary. so whatever scanning there was done by either the lead car or the presidential car or the followup car primarily had to be done by the people in the followup car. is that a fair analysis? mr. lawson. i don't recall if you mentioned the pilot car, but they would have had an opportunity in the pilot car to do some scanning. representative ford. but there are no secret service people there. mr. lawson. no secret service people in that one. mr. mccloy. there would be secret service men in the vice presidential car, and of course there is the secret service car that follows the presidential car, all through the route there are interspersed secret service men. mr. dulles. it must have been the third or fourth or fifth car in the motorcade that was right opposite the window at the time the assassin put the rifle well out of the window and shot. mr. mccloy. why do you say that? mr. dulles. the shooting took place when the president's car was somewhere here (indicating to photograph of scene). it had made the turn, you see. here is the building. now there is the window up here roughly. he didn't shoot here. they went around the turn and were down here. there was a barricade there. there was something there that obstructed the view you will remember. mr. mccloy. that is the sign here like this. mr. dulles. it would be down that far. mr. mccloy. it might have been there. mr. dulles. as close as that? whatever it was, the car that was right opposite the window and going in this direction at that time must have been the fourth or fifth car--the car which had the best view of the assassination. you wouldn't be looking i shouldn't think, if you were in a car here, you wouldn't be looking back there. you would be looking off here and off here for protection. i should think that car in this strange situation, where he was shooting right down the street--isn't that correct? i don't know if you have ever followed that up. i don't know what car it is. it is some car along here, though, that would have been right opposite the window at the time the shooting took place, not one of the lead cars or the president's car. mr. stern. by these cars you mean, sir---- mr. dulles. in the motorcade. some of these down here. it might have been even the wire services or the press cars. i don't know how many cars but i think from our photographs we ought to be able to identify that. representative ford. a man named jackson who was a photographer in one of the cars with photographers is an individual who identified the fact that somebody was in that window with a rifle as i recall. mr. dulles. he was in one of the press cars was he? representative ford. yes. mr. dulles. the wire service car is the seventh car including the lead police vehicle. well, the lead car, if you count the lead car, six, the sixth car. representative ford. he testified as i recall that the car in which he was--was halfway down the block between main and elm at the time that he looked up and saw the building and saw people in windows. mr. dulles. this is houston and this is elm. houston and elm isn't it, not main. main and elm, or yes. representative ford. however, the time span between the time that the lead car, the president's car and the followup car came down houston and turned down elm is a relatively short period of time. mr. lawson. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. by the way, at what speed were you going as you came around the turn and into elm street? you said to downtown. would it be about the same speed there? mr. lawson. i imagine it was a little faster at this time, sir, because the downtown section where it was quite heavily populated with people watching the motorcade, we had been out of that for a while before we got to the houston street turn. so we were probably back up to perhaps or miles an hour by then. mr. mccloy. but you would have had to slow up a bit coming around the curve. mr. lawson. yes, sir. mr. stern. mr. lawson, can you tell us why you didn't plan the motorcade so that it went straight down main street to turn right on to the entrance to the freeway instead of taking this dogleg on houston and elm? mr. dulles. jerry, will you take over. representative ford. will you proceed please, mr. stern? mr. stern. yes. mr. lawson. you mean why we didn't come straight down main street to the stemmons freeway? mr. stern. right. mr. lawson. because it is my understanding there isn't any entrance to the freeway on main street. mr. stern. but you don't yourself recall now or do you? mr. lawson. yes, i was told that there wasn't any entrance that way, and i myself once when i went to the trade mart, not knowing that there was any entrance to it, went down main street. you must enter the freeway going in the direction that we wanted to go from the elm street extension. mr. stern. when you went down main street you found that you could not get on to the entrance to the stemmons freeway? mr. lawson. going the direction on the freeway towards the trade mart, that is correct. mr. stern. which is the direction the motorcade was to go? mr. lawson. was to go; yes, sir. mr. stern. have you ever had occasion to provide for building checks along a motorcade route when you were doing an advance, or is it just never done? this is as of the time of dallas. mr. lawson. i have never had an advance where i had buildings checked on our route. mr. stern. it is not a question---- mr. lawson. on a moving route. mr. stern. it is not a question of your instructions? you could if you wanted to, i take it? it is just a matter of your discretion and your training, is that correct? mr. lawson. i don't believe it is discretion. it is just that to my knowledge only inaugurations or when a foreign president or king comes to washington, like that where it is a motorcade route known practically for years in advance of how you are going to go do we check, start out with enough men, enough time ahead of time to check the whole route up to that time. mr. dulles. is there any practice of going to the superintendent of a building and putting any responsibility on him to see that strangers don't come into the building at that time, or assuming any responsibility at all with respect to the inmates of the building? i don't know what the practices are. mr. lawson. as i stated, sir, there was for inaugurations here in washington--we have done building surveys of buildings that overlook the white house, that overlook the grounds, that overlook areas where the president goes quite often or where he might be out or something like that. yes, sir; we keep those quite up to date. out on a trip away from washington, i have never requested building superintendents to do this. this was not the usual practice. mr. smith. may i ask a question there, sir. is any of that information that you just gave the type of thing that is not supposed to be known publicly? i just don't know how necessary this is to the record, i mean about checking the buildings around the white house and so on. is there anything about that that is sensitive? mr. lawson. i would assume that most of the people thought that we did. representative ford. i think that is the general impression. mr. lawson. yes, sir. mr. smith. i can check on that. if there is something in there i might want to come back on. representative ford. i think as far as we are concerned if you do check on it and find that it is something that ought to be left off the record we could certainly do so. mr. dulles. it might be declassified as a whole or lower the classification, so i think it is well to put in the record what you have said, that this part of the record should be reviewed by the secret service, and if it is a security matter i think they ought to raise it. i don't think we want to ever disclose anything that the responsible agency thinks would imperil the life of any president. mr. smith. i have in mind what he said and i will check on it right away. unless i come back and make some point about it, why you can rest assured that there will be no problem. representative ford. will you call the attention of the commission to what you find out, whether it should or should not be in the record? mr. smith. yes, i will. may i tell mr. stern? representative ford. surely. mr. stern. were you aware of a suggestion that a vehicle with representatives of the dallas homicide squad be in the motorcade, i believes behind the vice president's car, a decision that was changed just before november ? can you tell us anything about that? mr. lawson. i believe i recall some mention of them asking--i don't remember if they asked if there should be a car or not but i believe there was some mention that there be a car, that they could have a car in the back there. this was not usual procedure. in new york it is, and on foreign trips it is. mr. dulles. i understood that car was to be between the lead car i think and the president's car, was it not, or is it between--no, between the lead car and the president's car. mr. stern. i haven't yet seen the transcript of yesterday's session, sir, and i am not quite sure. representative ford. my recollection is that it was to follow the president's car, either behind the followup car or behind the vice president's car. mr. dulles. we can check that. it is somewhere in there. i have a feeling it was ahead of the president's car but i may be wrong. mr. stern. i understand we have been advised that at one point there was such an arrangement and that this was changed, and that captain fritz, the head of the homicide division, who was to ride in that car, went instead at someone's request to the trade mart where he was to participate in security at the speaker's table. do you know anything about that? mr. lawson. i remember it being mentioned. whether it was a request or whether they had already laid it on i do not know, but i do remember it being mentioned that they could have a car if it was so desired. mr. stern. if they desired? mr. lawson. i don't recall if it was that they would put it in if we wanted it or if they said that they definitely would put it in or what. but it was mentioned, and i hadn't thought of this since. that is why i am a little hazy on it. but i don't know even who cancelled it, whether they did or whether we had just said well it is not the normal procedure so that they did. but as far as captain fritz going to the trade mart, i don't know anything about that. mr. stern. but you did say, i take it, it is normal procedure in new york? mr. lawson. in new york, new york has a special squad of people. one of their main functions is protection of foreign dignitaries when they come to visit the u.n. or for any other reason. these people are used---- mr. dulles. do we give more protection to foreign dignitaries than we do to our own chief of state? mr. lawson. is that a question for me? mr. dulles. that is a question. mr. lawson. no, sir; i don't believe we do. i don't believe the security, the advance security arrangements, are quite as stringent. mr. stern. this new york procedure is something you have worked out with the new york authorities? mr. lawson. i am not aware of the policy arrangements that were made. i do know that there is a detective car used in new york quite often filled with this special detail of men. mr. stern. do they have a special responsibility in the motorcade? mr. lawson. they act as secret service agents act in the motorcade. they help out if there is a stop and we need extra men and so forth. but i am not aware of why they are there. it wasn't my decision that they be there. mr. dulles. could i ask one question right there. whose duty is it, whose responsibility is it to decide how many of these cars will be in the motorcade, how many protective cars let me say? i am not speaking of cars for dignitaries or press and so forth, but how many protective cars are in a motorcade? does the secret service decide that or do the local police decide it to some extent or do you decide it in consultation? mr. lawson. we have our usual motorcade, and usually it is in consultation. they take our recommendations quite frankly. mr. dulles. have you been giving any consideration to reviewing that procedure to see whether the existing procedure is the best from the protective angle? have you any suggestions to give us on that? mr. lawson. i believe that the chief's office is, but i am not in a position to say what they are going to do. mr. dulles. i think it would be interesting if that was being done. maybe it should be done, just to have a good look at it. if you could advise us as to whether that is under consideration, it might be helpful. representative ford. i think it was my understanding that the treasury department is making a review of this whole setup, are they not? mr. smith. yes, i understand so. i understand that we have discussed with the chief justice an arrangement, sort of a question and answer thing to begin with on this because of the sensitive nature of this information, to see if adequate information for your purposes can be developed that way, and then at that point or at some point in the future it will be decided how this question of the review and new procedures will be handled. that is my understanding of it. (discussion off the record.) mr. smith. i am fred b. smith, deputy general counsel of the treasury department. representative ford. will you stand and be sworn. do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? mr. smith. i do. mr. dulles. i wonder if the witness would just repeat. (discussion off the record.) mr. stern. on the record. representative ford. would you repeat what you indicated a moment ago, mr. smith? mr. smith. yes, sir; i have been informed that an arrangement was worked out with the chief justice with respect to the question of improving procedures for the protection of the president that certain information would be provided in the form of questions and answers, and that after that procedure had been fulfilled, consideration would be given as to such questions as the necessity of further testimony on such questions and appropriate security arrangements with respect to such information. this is on hearsay. i haven't been involved in that myself. i would like to ask mr. stern if that is in accordance with his understanding. mr. stern. it is my understanding. mr. dulles. if it is appropriate i suggest that maybe this question of the number of protective cars in a motorcade of this nature might be one of the questions you would be willing to consider, or whoever is considering this matter would be willing to include among the subjects of consideration. representative ford. will you proceed, mr. stern. mr. stern. i would like to finish on this special new york practice with you, mr. lawson. if an incident were to occur during a motorcade in new york, is it your understanding that the responsibility of these new york officials, detectives, would be to investigate the incident or to stay with the motorcade as the secret service would? mr. lawson. i am afraid i couldn't answer that. i don't know. mr. stern. is there something special about the new york circumstances that makes it desirable to have these additional detectives that you don't ordinarily have? mr. lawson. again i don't know. i conceive myself personally--where we go through quite often--i believe there are more people in the state of new york than there are in billings, mont., and you might have more of a chance of something occurring in new york. but again i don't know why it is in new york and not usual in other places. mr. stern. was the organization of the motorcade in dallas typical, apart from new york? mr. lawson. yes. quite typical. mr. stern. would it be the same in billings, mont., or would you have additional strength in the motorcade in dallas? mr. lawson. as far as escorting people, there were more people in dallas. mr. stern. more celebrities? mr. lawson. no; by escorting people i meant motorcycles or something like that. again it depends on where you are, even if they have motorcycles or how many they have. but the makeup of the motorcade vehicles itself, again depending on who is coming and how many cars you have is pretty generally the same. a pilot car, a lead car, the president's car, motorcycles if you have them, some motorcycles if you have them along the side of the motorcade to help keep it intact or if it gets split up as it has on occasion to be able to catch them up and rear vehicles to keep them from passing the motorcade, et cetera. mr. stern. and the one presidential followup car. mr. lawson. and the secret service followup car; yes, sir. this was my first movement with the president and the vice president all at the same time. that was quite out of the ordinary. mr. stern. and there you added a vice-presidential followup car? mr. lawson. yes, sir. mr. stern. performing the same function as the presidential followup? mr. lawson. that is correct. mr. stern. but apart from the motorcycles, i take it if you had been in billings, mont., the organization of the motorcade would have been the same; is that correct? mr. lawson. just about the same; yes, sir. mr. stern. i would like to touch briefly on the selection of the trade mart and the security measures there, having in mind that your three memorandums cover this in great detail. if you could just highlight and indicate if in any respect your memorandums are inaccurate or incomplete. the record will rely primarily on your memorandums. mr. lawson. i don't know of any incorrectness in it. there might be. mr. stern. or any detail that you would want to add? mr. lawson. no; i can't. if you have some specific questions. mr. stern. why don't you just summarize then how the trade mart was selected, your participation in it, the consideration of alternatives, the decision ultimately to use the trade mart, whether you had any particular preference between the trade mart and the other building that was considered. take that part of it first. mr. lawson. yes, sir. the morning after we arrived in dallas, late in the morning, we, mr. sorrels and mr. puterbaugh and myself and another agent from dallas, agent stewart, went to mr. cullum's office who is the president of the dallas chamber of commerce, a local businessman who was acting as subcommittee chairman i guess for the local host committee. mr. stern. i don't think we need this much detail because we have your memorandum. if you could just tell us in general terms where you went and the considerations. mr. lawson. some of us went to mr. cullum's office and after talking with him there for a while we went to the trade mart, met with representatives of the trade mart, the general manager of the trade mart, and were shown generally around the building, told how they usually handled luncheons or dinners or dances that are held there. mr. stern. were there particular security problems that the trade mart presented? mr. lawson. there were balconies there and also it was a building that would be used by other people that day. however, this is somewhat good because it wasn't exactly a public building where anyone could wander in. the lessees of the showrooms there or their customers have to be checked in. you either have to be a lessee or a bona fide customer of a showroom in order to even get in the building. they have kind of a semisecurity of their own that way. so it was good in that respect. there were hanging bridges and balconies, as i have said, side corridors and what not. after we left there, we went to the women's building at the fairgrounds, to look that over, and in this particular case the food would have had to have been brought in because there isn't any kitchen there, which was a plus at the trade mart. they had a regular cafeteria there and a catering service, which the women's building didn't have. the women's building is on one floor, quite low ceilinged, and the press coverage that is usually quite in evidence when the president is anywhere, both from the traveling press with him and the local press would have required their usual press coverage, and it would not have been as good in the women's building, because of the low ceilings. they usually like to be up at least as high as the president or higher, , , or feet. so we could put them in a balcony at the trade mart but we could not do so, at least get them any higher because of the low roof at the women's building. there were numerous columns in the women's building that would have blocked everybody's view of the people at the head dinner table, guests, and the guests there. so there were pluses and minuses for both buildings, and i so informed people in washington and mr. puterbaugh informed people in washington also. representative ford. who made the decision as to the trade mart or the women's building at the fairgrounds? mr. lawson. that was made in washington, sir. representative ford. by whom, do you know? mr. lawson. i am assuming by the white house. i know that mr. puterbaugh was in contact with the national democratic headquarters people, and they were in contact with the white house and with the various groups down in texas, the governor's office as well. when the decision was finally made, we were told that it had been made but not to tell anyone yet because the announcement would come probably from the governor's office. representative ford. do you make a report in writing in this kind of a situation, the relative advantages and disadvantages of the two buildings? mr. lawson. no, sir. representative ford. from a security point of view? mr. lawson. no, sir. representative ford. how do the people in washington make the decisions then? mr. lawson. mr. puterbaugh told the people he was in contact with and i told mr. behn's office what i saw. mr. stern. who is mr. behn? mr. lawson. mr. behn is the agent in charge of the white house detail. what i saw in both buildings. as i say the decision was made back here in washington. representative ford. you summarized your views on this kind of a situation to mr. behn? mr. lawson. yes, sir. representative ford. who is your superior. by telephone, not in writing? mr. lawson. no, sir. representative ford. is this the case in all instances? mr. lawson. well, it usually doesn't happen. usually i know when you are going some place if the function is to be at the statler hotel or something like that. representative ford. do you know whether or not mr. behn made any recommendations on this? mr. lawson. i have no idea. representative ford. you gave him your observations and your recommendations? mr. lawson. i don't know if i gave it to him. i gave his office. now there were at that time two assistants. representative ford. did you make a recommendation one over the other? mr. lawson. no; i did not. i said that i was sure we could effectively handle both situations. again the motorcade was to be taken into consideration also. if you went to the trade mart you would have certain ways to go and if you went to the women's building you would have certain ways to go. and so they had to decide, someone had to decide whether they wanted the trade mart or certain motorcade specifications also, in the minute time lapse. mr. stern. on the basis of your experience, if you had had a strong preference from a security point of view for one building over the other do you think that would have been followed in this case? mr. lawson. i could have only told them what i thought, and how much weight it would have had i don't know. mr. stern. can you tell us roughly the total number of police, sheriff's office officials, and secret service agents that were engaged in protecting the president in dallas and break them down if you can as between people at the trade mart, people on the motorcade route, people at love field? mr. lawson. i can give you what i was told was going to--that the police were going to provide but i won't be able to tell you exactly what they did provide, and also inform you that i was told that certain police were going to be shifted from one spot to another. i understood that as we went by a certain part of the motorcade some of those police then would be shifted perhaps over to the motorcade route on the way back in the intervening - / or hours that would still elapse. and i have that in my report if i can turn to it. mr. stern. yes; why don't you tell us in total numbers at each location. mr. lawson. but again i cannot tell you if these police figures, being the ones that they gave me, show that these are the same amount of men that were shifted or if these are separate men, because they were going to use part on the motorcade and shift them to another spot. now, whether that would double it or what i do not know. at the trade mart , and i believe this includes out in the parking lots and on there. that doesn't mean they were inside the trade mart. along the route . and escorts . love field , cruising . mr. stern. cruising? mr. lawson. chief curry said that naturally they have the rest of the city to protect and we can't go in and take every policeman that they have so that someone knows that all the police are going to be involved and it would be easier to commit certain crimes. but in addition to his regular police coverage of police cars throughout the city, there were also going to be some other police cars fairly close to our motorcade area, so that they could be called in if they had to be. mr. stern. i see. mr. lawson. detectives, ; department of public safety uniformed, ; rangers, ; plainclothes, ; dallas county sheriff department, ; fire department, ; the white house detail agents, ; agents from the vice president's detail, ; agents from the dallas office, . mr. stern. so there were secret service agents involved? mr. lawson. yes, sir. mr. stern. at the various locations. do you know whether the dallas police who were used were full-time policemen or were auxiliary policemen? mr. lawson. i do not know. mr. dulles. do you happen to know the circumstances under which there were some certain changes made as to the location of the motorcycle escort that went close to the president's car? mr. lawson. i know that their position varied, depending on the crowds. mr. dulles. no, i mean apart from that, apart from the crowd situation do you recall that any orders were given by or on behalf of the president with regard to the location of those motorcycles that were particularly attached to his car? mr. lawson. not specifically at this instance orders from him. just what i know to be the case from other advances, that unless it is necessary, it was my understanding that he did not like a lot of motorcycles surrounding the car. that is why we had four just back of the president's car, so that they could come up and intercept anyone running out from the sides easily, or we could call the other motorcycles back to him if we had to. but if there are a lot of motorcycles around the president's car, i know for a fact that he can't hear the people that are with him in the car talking back and forth, and there were other considerations i believe why he did not want them completely surrounding his car. mr. stern. can you summarize for us briefly the security arrangements at love field? mr. dulles. could i ask one question about the car before we get to love field. there has been testimony here that the back seat, the seat in which the president and mrs. kennedy had sat, could be raised or lowered i believe by the president himself, could be raised so he could get a better view of the surrounding people, and then it could be lowered and put in a normal position. do you know anything about that or how that mechanism worked and who worked it? mr. lawson. no, sir; i am not familiar with his car except for the fact that i know that you can raise or lower the seat. now whether that is done by him or in the front seat, we do have people that would be competent to tell you that, however. mr. dulles. you don't know whether that seat was raised at this particular time? mr. lawson. no, sir. mr. dulles. as the car went---- mr. lawson. i don't believe it would have been starting out. mr. dulles. i was talking about it at the time of the shooting. mr. lawson. no, sir; i have no idea. mr. stern. could you now just very briefly and generally summarize the security arrangements at love field and your participation in them. were they under your control and supervision? mr. lawson. yes, sir; they were under my control and supervision. we held our police meeting at the airport last because of problems involved in finding an area big enough for his motorcade to start and the planes to park and so forth. this was not actually resolved until the day before he arrived, and that is why the police meeting was held at that point quite late. but arrangements were made to have the general public contained behind a chain link fence which is there anyway, and any overflow general public to be in a parking lot a little ways further away from the president, if there was not enough room behind this chain link fence. police were along both of these fences to keep the people in their place. there were two service roads which came in between these two general public areas. we closed off one and used the other because it was the only service road that most of the wings from the dallas air terminal were able to use, catering trucks going together, airplanes, mechanics and people being ferried, crews being ferried and so forth so we couldn't cut it off directly. however, these roads were to be shut off when his plane touched down, and kept shut off until after his motorcade departed inward, and then they were to be used again while we were gone and then just before we returned to the airport they were to be shut off again. mr. stern. what about police on buildings? mr. lawson. police were requested on the wing of the air terminal that came out closest to where he would stop, and police were requested to be on the air cargo building to the rear of this crowd area, which is a little higher than the small building, the customs building. any policeman on the air cargo building would be able to control anybody on the roof at the customs building. mr. stern. were these police stationed to watch the crowd, to watch persons who might be on the roofs of these buildings, to watch persons who might be in these buildings? what was their function? mr. lawson. the police on the building tops were to make sure that no unauthorized people were on the building tops, and to watch generally anything else that they could watch, that they were keeping their building top clear. and there were police along the fences to watch the crowd and to keep the people from coming onto the field who were not supposed to. there were detectives to be assigned throughout the crowd, to mingle with the crowd so that the people in the crowd would not know they were detectives. mr. stern. was there any particular check of offices inside the buildings which might present a vantage point overlooking the place where the president was to land and be received? mr. lawson. no, sir. mr. stern. were there such overlooking places? mr. lawson. there wouldn't have been except in a certain wing way up to the right of where he landed, quite a ways away. there wasn't any building directly in front on the side where he would come off the plane and walk down. there would be a building to his right at the very end of a wing that came out, and there was police on that. the crowd behind the fences would go over to the customs building, and no one would be able to see out of this one-story customs building. and behind that was the air cargo building where a policeman was requested on top. the police were then also requested all the way along our exit route along the parking lots and the runways as we went out of the airport and the motorcycle escort vehicles were waiting down closer to where we made our exit, again because of the room factor. mr. stern. did you confer with air force representatives who had responsibility for the president's plane and the vice president's plane? mr. lawson. yes, sir. i learned that they had been in for a general meeting of their own the morning of the th that i had not been aware of, but because of the presidential trips the week before he came to dallas, he went to maryland and he went to new york and he went to a couple places in florida, they were not able to send someone out to help with setting up the airport as soon as was usual. and because of a personal problem, the one that was to arrive on wednesday morning, didn't arrive until wednesday evening. i was quite certain that the area that we were being provided by the local airport was not going to be sufficient for our motorcade formation, the parking of three jet planes and so forth. but being a layman, i couldn't really impress them that this was so. but when the air force people did come in, they agreed that as set up it would not work, and mr. sorrels and the assistant airport director were able to get some extra space from a couple of companies nearby there, and it was able to be worked out, still really not enough room but it was adequate. mr. stern. ultimate responsibility for determining those arrangements--whether those arrangements are adequate is with the air force, is that right? mr. lawson. i don't really believe i understand your question. would you make it again please? mr. stern. you were concerned that the arrangements were not adequate. mr. lawson. yes. mr. stern. but you had to have the air force recommendation to straighten things out with the local authorities? mr. lawson. well, i know the size of the planes because i have the dimensions of them that i take with me on a trip, and other things, and also from past experience. however, they make measurements and they know their own faa rules, air force rules as to how close you can park jet planes to one another, what the turning radiuses are and so forth, so i was certain that the room that we had been provided wasn't enough, but i was also quite certain that when the air force got there, they would bear me out, which was true. mr. stern. if the air force is satisfied with the arrangements though, is that the end of it? mr. lawson. only for certain things. they would say if they definitely had enough room to park, how they would be parked, how they would come in, how they would go out and so forth. but again final security responsibility would be up to us. if it is an area where you can't possibly fit the press area in, the motorcade can't line up, the people can't come out without creating a lot of confusion so that you can't tell what is going on, then it delves into security, because the more confusion you have the worse off you are security-wise. mr. stern. i think we might touch briefly on press arrangements. will you tell us, if you know, how the final arrangements for the president's visit were announced, and particularly the motorcade route. mr. lawson. i know from reading in the paper how it was announced but i do not know who announced it. i believe it appeared in the tuesday morning paper. that would have been the th i believe. there was quite a bit of speculation before that perhaps the motorcade would go here and perhaps the motorcade would go there, but i believe that the one that was finally used was put in the paper on tuesday morning, the th from my recollection. let me make sure that tuesday is the th. mr. stern. it is the th. had there been a meeting on the th at which this was considered? mr. lawson. yes, sir; there was a meeting late in the afternoon of the th, in a private club in dallas that i arrived at late. the meeting was called primarily as i understand it because of the various political groups that wanted certain things, and what washington wanted, and there were various problems to work out as to who got tickets, who sat at the head table, who rode in what cars and so forth. and the local host committee had designated a certain individual to be their representative there, and then these other groups also had people represented. mr. puterbaugh, for example, the liaison man that went with me from washington, was there. and i had just come from going over the route with the police earlier that afternoon, and i told them as a point of information that this was the route as we had it now, unless it was changed later. representative ford. the following morning---- mr. lawson. the following morning. representative ford. it was announced in the newspapers? mr. lawson. yes, sir. mr. dulles. it was tuesday morning, isn't it the th. mr. lawson. yes, sir; tuesday morning. mr. stern. is this a normal amount of advance publicity for this kind of motorcade, regarding the actual route? mr. lawson. well, it depends on how much notice you have that the president is going there. it was announced this morning that he is taking a trip tomorrow on appalachian poverty, so we sent agents out this morning. naturally even if they wanted to publicize the motorcade route they wouldn't be able to do so in this instance. but on other occasions it had been announced sooner than that or about as soon in various areas; yes, sir. mr. stern. did you set up the areas at which the press would be located at love field and at the trade mart? mr. lawson. yes, sir; i did, with the approval of mr. hawkes from the white house staff, when he made a trip a little bit later. time was of the essence. sometimes we do it all when they do not send out someone to represent the press office from the white house, and sometimes they do it. in this case, because telephone lines, power lines, various engineering data would have to be disseminated and fixed up, we had to know where the press areas were going to be before mr. hawkes was able to come. so i told them that i would set it up in the belief that i knew what they usually wanted from the white house press office, but that he would have the power to overrule me, and i requested assistance of a local tv technician as to the angles and what not that the cameramen would like. mr. dulles. may i ask one question there. do you know whether any consideration is now being given to withhold the announcement of the actual route to be followed by the presidential party until say the morning that the trip is actually taken? mr. lawson. does this go into the realm of what we were talking about before as to what we are going to do in the future? mr. smith. it might. do you suppose, sir, that that is one of the things that---- mr. dulles. one has to do it in time so that those who want it could get it, but it seems to me that say if the party was going to move here about noon, now if the morning papers gave that that would give people plenty of time to get to the positions they wanted, but wouldn't give a prospective assassin very much time to prepare. mr. smith. sir, i don't know what the answer to that question is, but the question arises as to whether this isn't in that area where, you know, we are sort of deferring because of the sensitive nature of it. i don't really know what the answer is, and i don't know whether it is sensitive or not. apparently mr. lawson thinks that it might be. mr. lawson. no, just from your previous things, i can give you an off-the-record answer and you can tell me if it is. representative ford. why don't we make the same arrangement on this as we had on the previous. why don't you state for the record what you know and then we will have the same arrangement in this case as we had in the other. mr. smith. sir, i don't want to quibble but that was sort of an after the fact arrangement in the sense that that it came out in the testimony there after the fact. i was a little bit concerned about it. i am not sure we would want to make this arrangement on questions and then reserving on the handling of them, because that isn't completely in accord with what i understand to be the present arrangement with the chief justice. representative ford. i suggest we do it this way then. mr. lawson now shouldn't answer but i suggest that mr. stern in the questions that are being prepared, for which answers will be given, that this question be included. mr. dulles. that is entirely satisfactory to me. mr. smith. i am sure you are aware we have no desire to withhold any information whatsoever. it is just a question of procedure here. representative ford. this question is among those that are to be asked in this interrogatory. then the issue can be raised at that time. (discussion off the record.) mr. stern. mr. chairman, if you have questions to ask, or mr. dulles, about the advance preparation up to the time of november , i think this would be an appropriate time to cover it. representative ford. do you have any, mr. dulles? mr. dulles. i don't think of any at the moment; no. it has been very well covered. representative ford. mr. lawson. i would like to clear up in my own mind some details. you were notified november that you had this assignment for the dallas trip. mr. lawson. yes, sir. representative ford. who actually notified you? mr. lawson. mr. boring called me. he is assistant agent in charge of the white house detail, one of two. representative ford. that was november ? mr. lawson. november ; yes, sir. representative ford. do you recall the time of day? mr. lawson. i believe it was late in the afternoon. representative ford. what did you do next after being notified? mr. lawson. he told me that there wouldn't be any information available of any consequence until about the th. so i still had my regular duties and i was working. representative ford. what was the first thing you did officially in reference to the dallas trip? mr. lawson. i went to mr. behn's office and called to mr. kellerman on the th of november, and got the information that they had up to that time, the proposed itinerary for the texas trip, the time my airplane left, the name of some contacts and so forth, and then after that, went to the protective research section, picked up this paraphernalia, called the dallas office that i was coming, and so forth. mr. dulles. were you advised that this information should be kept secret or is that just understood, when you were first given the information about your assignments? that was kept entirely secret? mr. lawson. well, i wasn't advised that it should be kept secret. mr. dulles. but you never would give out this information. mr. lawson. no, sir. mr. dulles. until it is actually published. mr. lawson. that is right. i believe it was published before that though, however, anyway. mr. dulles. it was published that the president was going to texas before you went? mr. lawson. that is my recollection, but it is in the newspapers. mr. dulles. do you remember the date of that? don't delay on this account. go right ahead. representative ford. approximately how many such trips had you handled prior to this one? mr. lawson. i had assisted on some with a more experienced agent, and i had had a few of my own responsibility with people assisting me. i had assisted in berlin. representative ford. will you speak a little louder please? mr. lawson. i had assisted in west berlin in june. i had assisted in cincinnati on one of the congressional campaign trips in october before they discontinued because of cuba. i assisted in albuquerque, n. mex., on one of his aec trips. my responsibility, where i had the responsibility myself, had been cherry point, n.c.; billings, mont.; little rock, ark. the billings one was in september of , and the little rock stop was in october, the month before the assassination. those were my two responsibilities. i assisted in san diego. that was my first assist. then i have had other assists and responsibilities here in washington, fund-raising dinners or speeches, lunches. representative ford. i gather then you had the principal responsibility in five? mr. lawson. yes, sir. representative ford. or thereabouts? mr. lawson. yes, sir. representative ford. in each of those cases was the procedure the same as far as prs is concerned? mr. lawson. yes, sir. representative ford. you would go to the prs and get a list of the names of individuals and this other equipment? mr. lawson. that is correct. representative ford. now in the five or thereabout times that you did this in the past, what was your experience with prs? mr. lawson. i was told in buffalo, n.y., of a couple individuals, a couple of nuisance-type individuals more than actual threats. also told that there were a couple of individuals that came up after i had left washington on the little rock advance. subsequent to the time that i left, they notified the field office that things were under investigation. representative ford. but only in the one instance, buffalo, were you actually given the names of a threat, prior to your departure? mr. lawson. yes; i believe that is so. the other ones were subsequent to that time. representative ford. and in the case of little rock you subsequently received---- mr. lawson. yes. representative ford. a name or names? mr. lawson. yes, sir; and also in buffalo there were some phone calls to the office that there was a threat involved. representative ford. in the case of buffalo you had a name or two before you went? mr. lawson. yes, sir. representative ford. but in the other cases where you had the responsibility? mr. lawson. nothing. representative ford. the prs gave you nothing? mr. lawson. that is right. representative ford. do you know from your own knowledge, conversation with others who have similar responsibilities, whether prs normally had names to give to the agent in charge? mr. lawson. yes; there have been occasions when that has happened, and they are constantly sending over things in washington, for example. if we are just going out to the sheraton for a dinner, you always call up and say is there anything particular right now that we should know about, a recent escapee or anything like that that we might not know of yet. they put out lookout notices, send us a notification of people who have lost their white house passes, etc. representative ford. now, when you actually went to dallas, who in the secret service was under your jurisdiction, or what individual did you work with down there in the secret service? mr. lawson. i worked with mr. sorrels. he wouldn't really be under my jurisdiction because he was the local agent in charge, and he had various agents, also. on the day of the event his agents would be under my jurisdiction, and also his, because he is normally their boss. representative ford. howlett; what is his responsibility? mr. lawson. he is an agent of the dallas office. representative ford. responsible to mr. sorrels? mr. lawson. to mr. sorrels; yes, sir. representative ford. you got to dallas when? mr. lawson. the evening; tuesday evening, the th. representative ford. when did you make the decision to investigate this group of extremists down there? mr. lawson. i heard that there were films available, i believe, on wednesday, or thursday. i believe it was wednesday. representative ford. that would be november ? mr. lawson. the th; yes, sir. and i kept it in mind so that i could talk to the local office about that. i asked individuals in the local office, mr. sorrels and also special agent howlett, if they had any knowledge, if they had done any informant-type work, if they had any knowledge of anything that was going to go on that we might not know in prs, because prs would only know of definite trips by the president. but they might know of something else that might occur. and also at another time i talked to special agent howlett and asked him if he would view the films of this. representative ford. you arrived there on the th, tuesday? mr. lawson. yes, sir. representative ford. you met with sorrels when? mr. lawson. on wednesday morning. representative ford. wednesday morning? mr. lawson. yes, sir. representative ford. did you bring up, or did he bring up, the problem of so-called extremist groups? mr. lawson. i believe i brought them up, but i am not sure i brought them up that morning. it was sometime later. representative ford. sometime that day? mr. lawson. it was that day or the next day that we talked about it. we talked about these extremist groups off and on, of course, all the time that i was there. representative ford. did you limit it to so-called rightwing groups, or did you have a broader view than that, about groups that might be a problem on this trip? mr. lawson. i believe that i specifically talked about the rightwing groups; yes. representative ford. did you ever have any responsibility for a trip to new york at any time? mr. lawson. no; i did not. i just assisted in one, the world's fair opening yesterday, but at that time i had not. representative ford. this would have to be hypothetical under the circumstances, but if in the time prior to november you had the responsibility of a presidential trip to a community where you knew the fair play for cuba committee was active, would you have taken any special interest in that group? mr. lawson. i don't know. if at that time i had ever heard that they were particularly, might be any threat to the president, a particular group, if i knew that there was a particular group that advocated the killing of the president, yes. if it was just a political group of one kind or another, no, i probably wouldn't unless i had definite information. representative ford. did you have any evidence that the groups you investigated in dallas had any program or interest in killing the president? mr. lawson. no; i did not. representative ford. you had this investigation made of this group in dallas because of the stevenson incident? mr. lawson. yes, sir; i didn't have the investigation made, because i don't think i would be in the position to have it made. mr. sorrels or prs or something like that could have. i asked, since we knew that there were these individuals, and an incident had occurred in the past; although no threat to the president was known, perhaps we had better at least try to find out if they were going to do anything, which is what i did. representative ford. when you go on with responsibility to a particular community, do you normally inquire of groups of one kind or another that have a reputation for political activity of one sort or another? mr. lawson. not for just political activity; no, sir. representative ford. i meant political activity in the broader sense; not one political party versus another, but political extremist groups. mr. lawson. no, sir; usually, if there is going to be any picketing, an extremist group or something like that, it will come from the police sources or another federal source. they will tell us that they have heard that certain individuals are going to hang signs from a window as we go by, or demonstrate, or something like that. representative ford. did you ask the dallas police or any other local authorities if they knew of any individuals or groups that might be a threat to the president? mr. lawson. i knew that special agent howlett had been in contact with them, both about the informants and going over to view the films. i did not, except when i saw this one piece of literature, and asked them if they knew anything about it. representative ford. did special agent howlett report to you of what contacts he had made with the dallas police or other local law-enforcement authorities on this point? mr. lawson. in generalities, yes, sir. he told me that he had seen an informant outside of the city of dallas, and that this informant had been active in some of the movements; that he had quit because he was afraid, but to his knowledge there was nothing going to occur. representative ford. do you when you have this responsibility rely on somebody else to ask the local people, or do you ask the questions yourself of any groups that they know of or any individuals that they know of locally? mr. lawson. i believe it would depend on the circumstances. in this case i knew that special agent howlett was in contact with them. at no time--you usually ask the police if they know of anything that is going to occur, but, as i said, just regular political groups, unless i know that they have anything to do with the president, i have never done so. mr. dulles. would that include the fair play for cuba committee or communist groups or extreme rightist groups? mr. lawson. it would have up until that time; yes, sir. representative ford. certainly the fair play for cuba committee was one that took violent exception to this country's policies, and they were active in a number of communities, including new york, as i recall. it is my recollection that the president, prior to the assassination, had been to new york at a time that this organization was active. what i am trying to find out is, if the prs doesn't provide you with information about an individual or an organization, is it your responsibility to actually make extra checks locally, based on your own knowledge or your own experience? mr. lawson. well, i believe it would be my responsibility if i knew of any organization that did advocate the killing or the harming of the president. representative ford. there was no specific information that you had in this case that the so-called rightwing extremist groups---- mr. lawson. that is right. representative ford. had that in mind? mr. lawson. that is right; that is correct. it was also my understanding that, if anything was known about some of these other groups going to plan anything to embarrass the president or hurt the president, we would be notified by the people whose jurisdiction it is to look into those matters or who might have a little bit more knowledge about them than the secret service. representative ford. when you got to dallas, did you personally check with the local fbi office about any individuals or any groups? mr. lawson. no, sir; i did not. all the liaison either would be handled from the local sac's office or through washington. representative ford. that would be between some secret service office---- mr. lawson. either mr. sorrel's office and the local fbi office or from our office to the fbi headquarters in washington. representative ford. in the ordinary course of events that information would be given to you? mr. lawson. yes, sir. representative ford. in this case there was none? mr. lawson. i did find out that the police had sent over a couple of copies of these pamphlets, but that is the only information that i had of any liaison locally between the two. mr. dulles. are you referring to commission exhibit no. ? mr. lawson. yes, sir; i am. mr. dulles. do you know what action was taken with respect to this pamphlet by the dallas police? mr. lawson. no; i do not, subsequent to that time. mr. dulles. how long before the president's visit to dallas was this brought to your attention; do you remember? mr. lawson. yes sir; thursday afternoon. mr. dulles. thursday afternoon; thursday before the friday? mr. lawson. yes, sir. representative ford. in this preliminary report dated november , which is commission exhibit , i notice there is no information in here about this extra effort that was made down there over and above the prs. mr. lawson. yes, sir. representative ford. is the format for this laid out in advance? mr. lawson. yes, sir; it is. representative ford. do they give you an opportunity to add anything to it if you want to or feel you should? mr. lawson. it could be; yes; i am sure it could. representative ford. was there any reason why you didn't indicate in this preliminary report what you had done in this regard? mr. lawson. no; that belongs in our prs section of the report. if this had occurred in september or october, and this report as it is here now, the final report had been sent in early, that would have been in there. representative ford. i don't understand that. mr. lawson. approximately a month before the dallas trip, we changed the reports, if there was time, of course, on all these. in washington, d.c., for an on-the-record movement we have a report made up like this final one, only it isn't called final. it is a survey report, and it has everything in the introduction, prs, and everything right in it, and then a supplemental report. for our out-of-town trips they had a preliminary survey report, and then a final survey report, so that if the report had been done in september, let's say, that would have been in it, because it is in the regular format under prs. you put in under the prs section anything containing any untoward incident, any information that you receive from prs or anything that developed later. representative ford. this report i have here, final survey report, commission exhibit , does include that information? mr. lawson. yes, sir; it does. representative ford. do you know whether or not mr. kellerman had this preliminary report prior to his departure for dallas? mr. lawson. yes, sir; i prepared this tuesday, late afternoon, and tuesday evening, the th, and made arrangements to have it flown by airline to washington, and then have an agent from the white house detail pick it up from the airplane, which is normal procedure both on the preliminary report, and when we use it to send the complete report ahead of time. then i called to make sure that it arrived, which it had. representative ford. this was prior to mr. kellerman's departure with the president? mr. lawson. yes, sir; it had to be done that early because they were gone out of washington the day before they got to me. representative ford. are your current regulations for preliminary report different now than they were at this time? mr. lawson. i believe for out-of-town trips we have a preliminary report and a final survey report. representative ford. is the current format any different now than it was november ? mr. lawson. i don't believe so. again, there are things that you can add here, certain stops; you might have a motorcade list and you might not, if there isn't any motorcade. representative ford. i believe that is all. do you want to proceed? mr. dulles. i have one or two questions that were brought up by your own questions. did you have any discussion with the dallas police about general walker's activities? mr. lawson. no; i did not, but i knew that he was in this rightwing group and that special agent howlett was pursuing this. mr. dulles. was following its activities? mr. lawson. yes, sir. mr. dulles. and he was one of your local---- mr. lawson. he was the local agent. mr. dulles. agent in dallas. this morning when agent bouck testified, he left with us some memoranda, commission exhibit , setting forth cases which had been looked into by the dallas office during the period october , to october , . i note that a good many of these cases are marked closed, but i wanted to ask whether the reports of these cases were brought to your attention either before you left or after you got to dallas, or are you familiar with them? mr. lawson. i am not familiar with them, but if they are active cases, people that---- mr. dulles. in some cases it is stated, "investigation completed." this particular case, co - , says: "investigation completed on december , , by the dallas office in texas." that means that this case at least was closed after the assassination. you don't recall that. this is a report from a student at the university about a subject that made derogatory remarks against the president. you don't recall that case having been brought to your attention? mr. lawson. i know that special agent howlett told me. i believe this might be connected with one of those informant things outside of dallas that i was speaking about, but i don't know this--i know it was texas. whether this is the same one or not i don't know. but i would only have knowledge of something that was brought to their attention that the president's life was threatened, and i was given no information that such had occurred. mr. dulles. and so you don't recall any of these or other cases here? a good many of them are noted as closed. that situation would not be brought to your attention? mr. lawson. no; they would not. mr. dulles. would not? mr. lawson. no. mr. dulles. in some cases it is noted, "subsequent activity none." it is stated, "periodic checkups were not deemed necessary. prosecution was declined." this was the case of a remark made by a gentleman at a bridge party. you don't recall that case? mr. lawson. no, sir; i wouldn't have any occasion to know what cases have come into prs. mr. dulles. even if they related to dallas? mr. lawson. only if they related to dallas, and i have been told that these individuals were in the active file, it was an open case, and that we should be watchful of this particular individual, but i was given none of this information. mr. dulles. in your case when you left washington you weren't given any cases that you considered dangerous in the dallas area? mr. lawson. no, sir. representative ford. when they do give you the name and the case of an individual such as in the instance of buffalo, what do you get? what is given to you, i mean? mr. lawson. you are given the name and the number of the case, and then there is a file in buffalo just like there is a file in washington, and you can review that file there, and depending on the circumstances you would again have the person followed, or try something to keep him away from the president. mr. dulles. i see. you are simply given the name and the file number. mr. lawson. yes, sir. mr. dulles. of the individuals? mr. lawson. you might be given some other information, like what it concerns, but i mean you wouldn't sit down and read the whole thing because you could get that in the buffalo office or wherever. mr. dulles. what would have been your normal practice so far as you can judge if you had been informed that a man, an american had defected to the soviet union and had returned to the united states and was living in dallas and was working in the texas school book depository, would that have been sufficient cause alone to cause you to make an investigation or report it to the dallas police? mr. lawson. if i had had that information--again this is supposition. mr. dulles. i realize that. mr. lawson. but i probably would have asked advice on it from either the prs section or the white house detail ahead of it; yes, sir. mr. dulles. supplementing a point that was raised earlier, i find that president kennedy's visit to texas was reported in the dallas morning news as early as september , , and the pertinent sections of this press report--it is headed, "kennedy to visit texas november - ," and there is also included in the heading, "dallas included." the first two paragraphs of this story reported from jackson hole, wyo., that area, where the president was then on a visit: "white house sources told dallas news exclusively wednesday night that president kennedy will visit texas november and . "the visit will embrace major cities of the state including dallas." that is just to check on the point of the date when it was first published. so it was published sometime before you were notified of your assignment. mr. lawson. yes, sir; i was doing the billings advance. he left billings to go to jackson hole, wyo., and then returned the next morning again to billings. mr. dulles. you don't recall having heard that though? mr. lawson. no. mr. dulles. in connection with your work with the president's party on that trip? mr. lawson. no. representative ford. will you proceed, mr. stern? mr. stern. to conclude the advance work, mr. lawson, would you describe the advance work for the dallas visit as the same as or different from typical advance preparations for a trip of this nature? mr. lawson. i don't know if that is too general, but i would say that it was quite a typical trip. i tried to do everything i could think of to make the advance run smooth, and this trip work all right. mr. stern. the length of time you spent doing the advance, the contacts you had, the time spent by other people, this was typical of this kind of trip? mr. lawson. sometimes you go out earlier than other times. actually this was out just a little bit earlier than usual. an average, if you have to give an average, i would say you are out about days ahead of time. but like i say, some fellows left this morning for a trip tomorrow. mr. stern. now on the period up to november , as i said before, we will rely substantially on what is in your memorandum. if there is anything now that you would like to add or correct in the statements you have made there, anything you would like to add to your testimony so far today before this commission, will you do so? mr. lawson. i can't recall any. mr. stern. i would like to move then to the actual events of november . i show you first a two-page document marked for identification commission exhibit . can you identify that? mr. lawson. i can. mr. stern. will you tell us what it is and why it was prepared? mr. lawson. it was a statement prepared by me on request of inspectors in the chief's office as to my knowledge of the event of the shooting of president kennedy itself, and i prepared this the day after i returned from dallas, which was the d of november. mr. stern. i now show you a five-page memorandum marked for identification commission exhibit . could you identify that for us and tell us how it was prepared? mr. lawson. this is a statement that i gave about as many of my activities, official activities concerning the president's visit the whole day of november , and until i returned to washington early on the morning of november , as i could. mr. stern. mr. chairman, may these be admitted? representative ford. they may be. (the documents marked commission exhibits nos. and for identification were received in evidence.) mr. stern. so that , the memorandum prepared on december would include everything that you put in your memorandum of november which was done immediately upon your return? mr. lawson. yes. mr. stern. turning to your memorandum of december , commission exhibit , it mentions on page discussion of weather conditions and the decision whether or not to use the bubble-top on the presidential automobile. could you expand on that for us and tell us what happened? mr. lawson. yes, sir; it was quite rainy early in the morning of the d in dallas, and i received a phone call from the assistant agent in charge mr. kellerman, who was in fort worth with the president, asking about weather conditions in dallas, and what they probably would be, and discussing whether to use the bubble-top on the president's car or not. i was told the bubble-top was to be on if it was raining, and it was to be off if it was not raining. mr. stern. and then what happened? did the weather clear? mr. lawson. the weather cleared quite fast. i can't recall now. it was approximately an hour or minutes before the president was scheduled to arrive, and we had purposely put off changing the top until the last minute when we could find out what the weather was going to be. but it cleared and the weather became quite sunny all of a sudden. also i received a phone call from fort worth from agent hill, who was assigned to mrs. kennedy, asking what the weather was and whether the top would be on or not. i suppose that was so he could let her know whether she had to wear a hat or something because of the weather. i told him that it looked like it was starting to clear, but we still had not made up our minds whether to have the bubble-top on or off at the point of his call. but i told him if it was raining it would be on, and if it was clear it would be off. mr. stern. were you involved in the final decision respecting the bubble-top? mr. lawson. yes, sir; the weather was clear so i told them to have it off. mr. stern. then from your memorandum you visited, early on the morning of november , the trade mart? mr. lawson. yes, sir. mr. stern. and checked the final arrangements there, returned to love field, checked the final arrangements there? mr. lawson. yes. mr. stern. the president arrived. you might tell us a bit about the reception and the president's greeting the crowd. mr. lawson. yes. the press plane came in. it was the first plane in, and some agents that were on the press plane that were coming in early were sent to their respective posts at the trade mart. the traveling press that comes with the president were shown the press area, were shown where the plane would be, and so forth, told a little bit about the arrangements there. the transportation staff and people from the white house press office were told a little bit more in detail about what would happen at love field, and the motorcade, and the press arrangements down at the trade mart. ordinarily you need to provide transportation to the function for the presidential seal, the flags, heavy sound equipment that comes on the press plane and all that, and it was arranged for station wagons and trucks to take that. but they told me upon arrival that they had sent these direct to fort worth since it was so close and that we didn't need those. shortly after this, the vice president's plane arrived, and i went out to greet it with the agent from the vice presidential detail, and showing people where to go if they wanted to get in their cars, and telling them where the president's plane would be, and making myself useful to the people coming off the vice presidential plane. while it was stopping, the presidential plane was landing and taxiing over, so that they went practically directly from their plane, those people who wanted to greet the presidential plane, to the rear ramp, where he would be arriving. the president's plane stopped and the greeting committee and the vice president and mrs. johnson and any of those people on the plane that had wanted to greet the president, local congressmen, et cetera, were over at the president's rear ramp and then i was at the rear ramp across from the greeting committee and the other dignitaries when he arrived. he went through the greeting committee. i was on his left, the opposite side of the greeting committee, and the other dignitaries. he walked toward the fence. at that time i made sure that the motorcade was all ready to go, and the drivers were in their cars, and told people that were in the motorcade to please get in their cars because as soon as the president was ready, and we didn't know if that would be minute or , and as soon as he was in the car, why they would go. and gave instructions for moving the press ropes out of the press area, because of the tightness there. we had to move part of the press area before our motorcade could drive by. and in general doing all of these little last-minute things. then went over to the fence and went along with the president, watching the crowd and talking to a few of the agents on some of their responsibilities, and went to look to see if the lead cars and the other police cars were about ready to go, and saw that the president was not yet, so went back to him, and then got him to his car and ran for my lead car and the motorcade proceeded from the airplane. mr. stern. is it typical that the advance agent rides in the lead car? mr. lawson. yes, sir. mr. stern. why is that? mr. lawson. i suppose for various reasons. no. , the presidential driver, although you might have given him a route or all that, he wouldn't really be familiar probably with the streets and all that, and this is the car that has the command police officials in it, and the secret service agent that knows the most about the start. so in any emergency situation the presidential car will follow that lead car if possible unless told otherwise. it is the best place for an agent, and also he controls the motorcade speed, and so forth, from there. mr. stern. was there anything unusual in the motorcade until you got to main and houston? mr. lawson. not unusual. there were crowds along the way, sometimes heavier than others in about the spots that it was expected to be that way. mr. stern. what was your impression of the attitude of the crowd generally? mr. lawson. it looked quite friendly, not as hopping and skipping as much as some other places, but very friendly and sometimes people just jumped up and down and screamed and yelled. this one seemed to be a quite friendly group by and large. on one occasion i noticed a sign, i can't recall what it is right now, but it was an out-of-the-ordinary sign, a sign designed to catch someone's attention, and i thought right then that probably it would catch the president's attention if he was looking to the right-hand side of the car, which he was, and he stopped there, which is not unusual. sometimes he would stop for certain groups, certain types of people at certain places unannounced, if there was something that caught his fancy or caught his eye, and he did there. and of course the crowd pressed around, and the other agents got off the followup car, got around his car. mr. kellerman got out. i was a little bit more ahead than i had been. we back up, stopped the motor car, told everybody by radio what was happening, the other police that we were stopped. before i was out of the car to give any assistance, why we were moving again. mr. stern. was that a built-up area with high buildings or were you still in the suburbs? mr. lawson. no; that was a suburban-type of area, a shopping center-type of area out away from the downtown area. mr. stern. i think perhaps now you could tell us what you observed and what transpired from the time your car turned into houston street off of main. mr. lawson. as i have said previously today, right around that corner i gave this radio broadcast that we were minutes away. mr. stern. was this while you were on houston or had you turned? mr. lawson. we had turned the corner. we were either at the corner, i believe we were just about at the corner when i asked the question if i shouldn't give about a -minute signal now so we must have been around the corner then when i actually finished broadcasting. it doesn't take long. mr. stern. around the houston-elm corner? mr. lawson. yes, sir; right in front of the book depository building, and then a little ways away from that probably by the time i had finished broadcasting. i noticed a few people along the right-hand side i can recall now, and more people on the right-hand side than out in the center strip median which is there, a grassy center strip. there weren't many people on the left at all. i recall thinking we are coming to an overpass now, so i glanced up to see if it was clear, the way most of them had been, the way all of them had been up until that time on the way downtown, and it was not. there was a small group, between and that looked like workmen. i got the impression, whether it was wrong or not i don't know, that they were railroad workers. they had that type of dress on. and i was looking for the officer who should have been there, had been requested to be there, and i noticed him just a little bit later, that he was there, and i made a kind of motion through the windshield trying to get his attention to move the people from over our path the way it should have been. but to my knowledge i never got his attention, and i have said in one of these statements that we were under the bridge, and i have said in another one that we were just approaching this overpass when i heard the shot. i really do not know which one is so, because it was so close, but we were about at the bridge when i heard the first report. mr. stern. now just to finish up with the people on the overpass, were they in a crowd together, or spread out? mr. lawson. they were spread out or deep, and as i say, between and of them to my knowledge, and i noticed the police officer standing behind them about in the middle of the group. mr. stern. and as far as you can remember now, in a position to observe all of them? were they in close enough a group? mr. lawson. oh, yes; observed them from the back. mr. stern. observed them from the back. did you notice any unusual movement? mr. lawson. i did not. mr. stern. did you know whether the policeman saw your signal or acknowledged it? mr. lawson. i didn't have any acknowledgment of it, and i don't know if he saw the signal or not. at least the people didn't move, they still stayed there in the middle. mr. stern. were you able to see the sides of the overpass, apart from the area directly over the lane you were traveling in? could you observe more? mr. lawson. i am sure i could have, but i can only recall the people. my immediate problem was right up there on the bridge, and i was concentrating right there. i don't recall anything on either side of the embankments. mr. stern. or any people? mr. lawson. no, sir; i do not recall any. mr. stern. just this group? mr. lawson. this group up on the bridge. mr. dulles. could i ask one question there. i think you testified just now that your car was very close to the overpass. mr. lawson. i believe it was. mr. dulles. and yet your car was only--well, how many feet ahead of the president's car was your car at that time, roughly? mr. lawson. i am not sure because i wasn't looking back right at that time at the president's car. i was looking at the bridge because of the people up on the bridge. mr. dulles. what was the normal distance? mr. lawson. i think it was a little further ahead than it had been in the motorcade, because when i looked back we were further ahead. (discussion off the record.) mr. stern. then what happened? mr. lawson. i heard this very loud report which at first, flashing through my mind did not say rifle shot to me. it sounded different than a rifle shot. it sounded louder and more of a bang rather than a crack. my first impression was firecracker or bomb or something like that. i can recall spinning around and looking back, and seeing people over on the grassy median area kind of running around and dropping down, which would be this area in here. mr. dulles. i might just add the witness is now referring to an aerial photograph. mr. stern. indicating the area between elm street and main street, the grassy area between the two streets. did you observe anything on the grass strip to the right of elm street? mr. lawson. no; i didn't, and it is my impression that my car was in this direction, so that when i looked back, that is why i saw this particular area here and not things over here that we had actually, see, started this curve so that when i looked back i was looking this way. mr. stern. you were looking to the grass strip? mr. lawson. yes, sir. mr. stern. in between elm and main and not to the grass strip across elm street? mr. lawson. that is correct. mr. stern. north of elm street. mr. dulles. the curve you referred to is the curve to the right. mr. lawson. it curves to the right just as it starts at the underpass, and continues to the right. representative ford. why did you look back? is that the direction of sound? mr. lawson. the direction of the sound and the direction of the president. representative ford. are you sure that the sound you heard came from the rear and not from the front? mr. lawson. i am positive that it came from the rear, and then i spun back that way to see what had occurred back there. mr. dulles. could you tell at all whether the sound came from above you? mr. lawson. no; i could not. it was quite a general loud bang, an echoing-type bang. representative ford. at the time of the sound you were within or feet of the overpass approximately? mr. lawson. i was quite close to the overpass, yes, sir; but i don't know exactly how close. representative ford. you are sure that the sound didn't come from the overpass? mr. lawson. i am in my own mind that it didn't. it came from behind me. then i heard two more sharp reports, the second two were closer together than the first. there was one report, and a pause, then two more reports closer together, two and three were closer together than one and two. mr. stern. what else did you observe when you looked back? representative ford. may i ask a question here. had you turned around by the time the second and third shots had been fired? mr. lawson. yes; i had. representative ford. did you get an impression from where they came? mr. lawson. again just behind me is the only impression i got, but in relation to behind me, where i do not know. representative ford. certainly not in front of you? mr. lawson. no. mr. stern. you were in a closed car? mr. lawson. yes; i was. the windows were open. mr. stern. and you were on the right-hand side in the front? mr. lawson. the right-hand side; yes, sir. mr. dulles. could you see the president's car when you looked back? mr. lawson. not that first time. as i looked back i looked right straight and saw the grassy median. then the second and third shots, reports, i noticed the president's car back there, but i also noticed right after the reports an agent standing up with an automatic weapon in his hand, and the first thing that flashed through my mind, this was the only weapon i had seen, was that he had fired because this was the only weapon i had seen up to that time. the events after that are a little bit jumbled, but i recall seeing agent hill on the rear of the president's car receiving a radio message that we should proceed to the nearest hospital. the nearest hospital was a continuation of our route. mr. stern. did you know that or were you told that? mr. lawson. i knew that. let me make a correction. i don't know if it was the nearest hospital, but i knew that it would be the fastest one that we could get to under the circumstances of where we were going under this freeway. mr. stern. did you know as part of your preparation or did you merely observe it in the arrangements you were making? mr. lawson. i had observed this from all the times i had passed the hospital going over the route; yes, sir. mr. stern. but it is not ordinarily a part of your advance work, or is it, to locate hospitals? mr. lawson. this is not a part of our report, but quite often in my own report in other times i have listed hospitals and so forth, bed facilities in some of my other reports. i did not in this case, but i had noted this hospital. mr. stern. but it is something you pay attention to yourself? mr. lawson. yes, sir; it is. again we depend upon the police knowing the city even better naturally than the advance agent to get us to a hospital depending where we are or anything like that, that would occur. mr. dulles. what was the lead car doing at this time? mr. lawson. the car that i was in, sir? mr. dulles. i thought you were in the second car. mr. stern. the pilot car. mr. dulles. the pilot car, not the lead car. mr. lawson. the pilot car was up ahead of us, so appeared other things i recall noting a police officer pulled up in a motorcycle alongside of us, and mentioned that the president had been hit. when the presidential car leaped ahead, although there was quite a distance, not quite a distance but there was some distance between the two cars, they came up on us quite fast before we were actually able to get in motion. they seemed to have a more rapid acceleration than we did. mr. dulles. did they actually pass you? mr. lawson. no, sir; they never did. we stayed ahead of them. the route was clear to the trade mart anyway, which was part of the route that we used to get to the hospital. and then from the trade mart on, the route was going to be policed after we arrived at the trade mart, so that on the route from the trade mart to the parkland hospital, which isn't very far, we had to do some stopping of cars and holding our hands out the windows and blowing the sirens and the horns to get through, but we made it in pretty good time. i also asked chief curry to notify, to have the hospital notified that we were on the way. i heard chief curry broadcast to some units to converge on the area of the incident down by where it happened. i don't recall how he phrased it, so that they would know to go to the texas book depository area. he told them to converge on a certain area, and that is what it turned out to be. when we arrived at the hospital, as our car pulled up and was still moving, i jumped out and a couple of the motorcycle policemen that had arrived there ahead of us, i asked them to keep any crowd back, any press people back, etc., as i went running in the building. i was looking for the stretchers that might be coming our way, and didn't notice any at first until i looked quite a ways down the corridor and saw two stretchers being pushed my way, and i ran down, turned around, put one hand on each one and then as they pushed and i pulled, we ran outside. the stretchers had to be placed in tandem because of the ambulance area and governor connally being ahead of president kennedy was placed on the first one and taken immediately away. president kennedy was placed on the second one by myself and some other individuals, and we went into the emergency room area and were shown into a particular emergency room. (discussion off the record.) mr. stern. mr. lawson, your memorandum is quite complete on the events from arrival at the hospital to your return to love field. if there is anything you would like to add to that, please do so, or to anything you have told us from the departure from love field to the arrival at parkland hospital. mr. lawson. i can't recall anything. mr. stern. i would like then to cover with you just a few points on your opportunities to observe lee harvey oswald following his arrest. as i understand it, you returned to the dallas police headquarters with chief curry and other police officials after he was informed that a suspect has been arrested, and arrived at the police headquarters somewhere between : and : ; is that correct? mr. lawson. i believe the presidential plane took off at : something, : , so that i didn't leave love field until after that. it was probably at least minutes after that that we left. we made certain that the agents had all arrived back from the various places that they were to return to washington, and that the white house staff, none of them had been left any place, and that the air force ii was going to pick up any stragglers. the press was going to depart on a press plane, and so forth, so it was probably a little after o'clock before we left. i recall that it was very bad traffic in the downtown area. we were bumper to bumper and didn't move a few times because apparently the chief thought everybody was converging on the downtown area to see this, plus all the people who had been there when it happened and just stayed there. i arrived sometime quite late. mr. dulles. you were still with chief curry? mr. lawson. i was. i was told by chief rowley rather than to come back to remain in dallas. it was quite late in the afternoon we arrived at police headquarters. mr. stern. what were the conditions at police headquarters when you arrived? mr. lawson. quite a bit was happening. i got the impression they had squads of detectives doing all kinds of things, people working on the presidential assassination, people working on the tippit killing. i know that they had squads of men going out doing various things and coming back, and it was quite hard just to keep abreast of things that were breaking as to what each group was finding out as it was happening, and quite often we were way behind. mr. stern. what about the appearance of the press and television reporters and cameramen at that time? mr. lawson. at least by or o'clock they were quite in evidence up and down the corridors, cameras on the tripods, the sound equipment, people with still cameras, motion picture-type hand cameras, all kinds of people with tape recorders, and they were trying to interview people, anybody that belonged in police headquarters that might know anything about oswald---- mr. stern. can you estimate how many reporters? mr. lawson. there were quite a few. the corridors, up and down the corridors towards the chief's office to the right of the elevator, around the elevator landing and down the corridors to the left of the elevator towards the homicide area were quite packed. you had to literally fight your way through the people to get up and down the corridor. representative ford. did you stay with chief curry most of the time? mr. lawson. no, sir; i was in various rooms and with various people for the rest of the evening. i saw chief curry quite often that evening. mr. dulles. who was in command at that time of the secret service detachment in giving the orders and coordinating the secret service men? mr. lawson. sorrels. my advance as such, was over, and i was just another secret service agent. mr. dulles. he was in command? mr. lawson. sorrels would be in command of any secret service activity. mr. dulles. subject of course to orders from washington; i realize that. mr. lawson. yes, sir; and we understood that inspector kelley, on one of our frequent phone conversations with washington, we were told that inspector kelley, one of our inspectors, was being sent out to coordinate the secret service investigation and to be the overall commander of the secret service out there, and he did arrive at approximately o'clock that evening and was met by an agent. mr. dulles. does the secret service have a facility for commandeering, getting airplanes when it needs them fast? mr. lawson. in certain instances, sir, i believe we use the air force and the mats people for advance trips, or if the presidential airplanes are full and they still need agents to go some place, why they will put on another airplane for us. sometimes we use air force transportation, sometimes commercial. mr. dulles. you have adequate facilities, have you, to get around in time of emergency like this, quickly? mr. lawson. i wouldn't be in a position to answer that, sir. mr. dulles. chief rowley would probably be the one. mr. lawson. yes, sir. mr. stern. when did you first observe lee harvey oswald, mr. lawson? mr. lawson. it was early in the evening of november . he had been in police headquarters for a little while at least before i first saw him, and they had already interrogated him as i understand it, and various detectives, police officials, and mr. sorrels and a couple other agents and myself saw lee harvey oswald when he was brought in for mr. sorrels to talk to at mr. sorrels' request. mr. stern. did you interrogate him? mr. lawson. no, sir; i did not. mr. stern. did mr. sorrels handle the interrogation alone? mr. lawson. yes, sir; that particular one. mr. stern. what were the questions and answers as best you can recall? mr. lawson. he asked information as to name. mr. dulles. who is "he" now? mr. lawson. mr. sorrels in asking the questions already had some background on mr. oswald before he started questioning mr. oswald. the detectives or other individuals had told them what they knew up to this point about oswald, his name, that he had been out of the country previous to this time to russia, and a few other things. it was known at the particular time, perhaps or o'clock. mr. stern. i take it you had phoned his name to your headquarters in washington as soon as you knew oswald's name? mr. lawson. i didn't. perhaps mr. sorrels did. mr. stern. did your office advise you whether they knew anything about oswald or had found out anything about oswald? mr. lawson. not me personally. mr. stern. that you know of? mr. lawson. not me personally. mr. stern. were any other questions asked? mr. lawson. yes; i recall mr. sorrels asking if he had been out--where he had been living, where he had been employed over the last years, and other information mr. sorrels already knew about. representative ford. what was his attitude? what was the attitude of oswald during this period? mr. lawson. oswald just answered the questions as asked to him. he didn't volunteer any information. he sat there quite stoically, not much of an expression on his face. mr. dulles. quite what? mr. lawson. stoically. mr. dulles. stoical? mr. lawson. yes, sir. representative ford. was he belligerent? mr. lawson. no, sir; he didn't seem to be belligerent at all. representative ford. did he resent the interrogation? mr. lawson. i didn't get the impression that it was a great resentment. he just answered the questions as they were asked of him. mr. dulles. did he answer all the questions? mr. lawson. i believe he did. mr. dulles. these were questions that mr. sorrels put to him? mr. lawson. yes; of course, mr. sorrels, i don't believe at that time, as i remember it, didn't ask him everything that we knew about him. representative ford. was there a transcript kept of this interrogation? mr. lawson. i don't know. mr. stern. do you recall any other questions that were asked? mr. lawson. i don't. at this time they were just general-type questions. mr. stern. what was his physical condition? mr. dulles. could i ask one question there? the question wasn't asked him at this time, at least while you were present, whether he was or was not guilty of the attack on the president? mr. lawson. this i do not recall. during this i recall i was called out for a phone call a couple of times. we were given information from mr. max phillips, who was in our prs section, and i believe it was during this that someone, an agent, was wanted on the phone, and i went out and answered this, and they gave us some information on people that it might have been--a case that wasn't oswald. mr. stern. what was his physical condition? mr. lawson. he was quite, well, unkempt looking, and i recall that he had a few bruises on his face. mr. stern. a few bruises? mr. lawson. i believe over an eye, a bruise or two. i can recall that he had a bruise over an eye or on a cheekbone, or someplace on his face, in looking back. and had a shirt and a pair of pants on. he wasn't very tidy looking, a little unkempt in his appearance. mr. stern. was he handcuffed, do you recall? mr. lawson. i don't recall. i know i saw him handcuffed around police headquarters quite a bit, but during this interrogation i don't remember if he was handcuffed or not. representative ford. how long did this interrogation go on? mr. lawson. this was not long. representative ford. five minutes? mr. lawson. five to ten minutes at the most; yes, sir. mr. stern. then what happened? did mr. sorrels finish? mr. dulles. may i ask one other question there? was there an interrogation just conducted by mr. sorrels, or were there others in on it, the police or the fbi? mr. lawson. i don't know if there were fbi agents there. there were other plainclothesmen there, and a few uniformed officers. mr. dulles. mr. sorrels conducted the investigation? mr. lawson. mr. sorrels was asking these particular questions, general-type questions, and when he finished the police took him back to another area. mr. stern. when did you next see oswald? mr. lawson. i recall seeing him in another room in homicide headquarters with a couple of plainclothes people and their talking to him. i saw him later in the evening, perhaps : , o'clock, when he was brought down to a showup room, because we had information that a gentleman had seen someone at a window, and so-- mr. stern. do you know who that was, the witness? mr. lawson. i do not know; no, sir. mr. stern. could it have been someone named brennan? mr. lawson. the name doesn't mean anything to me. mr. sorrels had sent an agent out to bring him down to police headquarters to talk to him, and he informed us he had seen someone in the window, but he had also seen lee oswald on television in the meantime, and he didn't know of how much value he would be. mr. stern. did he say anything about whether he thought---- mr. lawson. he could not say yes or no, whether oswald was the individual or not. mr. stern. did you notice any irregularity in the way the showup was conducted? mr. lawson. no, sir. mr. stern. did it seem like a normal one to you, the size of the people? mr. lawson. i didn't notice any irregularity. mr. stern. and their dress? representative ford. had oswald had any additional physical damage done? mr. lawson. no, sir. representative ford. the last time you saw him? mr. lawson. no; he had not. that was not the last time i saw him, however. then i later, approximately : , or around midnight, it was announced that there would be a press conference again down in the showup room, and inspector kelley had arrived by that time, not too long before that, and inspector kelley and i and another agent or two went down to this press conference where it was just completely packed. everyone couldn't get in the room, the cameramen, reporters, broadcasters, and so forth. upon a signal---- mr. dulles. who conducted that meeting? mr. lawson. i believe it was the assistant district attorney and chief curry and perhaps captain fritz. we were just there watching. mr. stern. tell us more about what---- mr. lawson. he was brought in through the crowd and through a side door there, through the corridors, brought in, and i believe the chief and the district attorney each gave statements, and oswald was asked a few questions then by the press, but i don't recall of it except that he was whisked out again fairly rapidly after that. mr. stern. do you remember what any of the questions were and his responses? mr. lawson. no, i don't. mr. stern. how many people were in this room? mr. lawson. it was overflowing. you could hardly hear because everyone was shouting questions. that is why i don't remember what the specific questions were and what his responses were. mr. stern. do you have any impression why this interview was conducted? mr. lawson. no; i do not. mr. stern. do you recall anything else that was said by the eyewitness that mr. sorrels had arranged to be brought in for the showup, anything else that he said while he was standing talking to you or mr. sorrels or while oswald and others were on the---- mr. lawson. no; i don't. mr. stern. then shortly after this showup, or shortly after this interview in the showup room, you left for washington, i take it? mr. lawson. yes; there had been quite a bit of discussion during the evening as to what evidence they had up to this time, the rifle, clothing, et cetera, would be brought to washington to the fbi lab to be worked on, or whether the police would keep it in their custody for a little while longer for their investigation, and there was quite a bit of discussion by various people all evening long. and when it was finally decided it would be released by the dallas police, the rifle and other evidence to return to washington, inspector kelley told me to return on the special plane that was flying the evidence and the accompanying fbi agent back to washington. mr. dulles. was the evidence turned over to you or the fbi? mr. lawson. to the fbi, sir. i just returned on the plane. mr. stern. was there at one point a reluctance on the part of the dallas police to release the evidence? mr. lawson. yes, sir. they felt, from what i overheard, they felt they might be able to get an identification of the rifle from one of the local gunshops. there were various leads that they wanted to follow out on that rifle that evening and the next day. i believe there was some talk that they couldn't locate some of the gunshop owners, and some of the other things they wanted to do. so they wished to keep this rifle for a day or so and then release it. mr. stern. i am told this has been covered with other witnesses, so there is no need to pursue it. i have nothing further. representative ford. how long was this interview where oswald was present? mr. lawson. the press interview, sir? representative ford. how long was he before the press? mr. lawson. i would say minutes at the most. representative ford. i have no other questions. mr. dulles. i have no other questions. representative ford. is that all, mr. stern? mr. stern. yes, sir. representative ford. thank you very much, mr. lawson, you have been very helpful. mr. dulles. we appreciate it very much. (whereupon, at : p.m., the president's commission recessed.) _thursday, april , _ testimony of alwyn cole the president's commission met at : a.m. on april , , at maryland avenue ne., washington, d.c. present were chief justice earl warren, chairman; senator john sherman cooper, representative gerald r. ford, and john j. mccloy, members. also present were j. lee rankin, general counsel; and melvin aron eisenberg, assistant counsel. the chairman. the commission will be in order. the purpose, mr. cole, of today's hearing is to take the testimony of mr. james c. cadigan and yourself. mr. cadigan is a questioned documents expert of the federal bureau of investigation, and as we all know, you are a questioned documents expert of the department of the treasury. we desire your testimony for technical assistance to the commission in connection with the papers used in this hearing concerning the assassination. mr. cole. i understand. the chairman. would you raise your right hand and be sworn, please? do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. cole. i do. the chairman. mr. eisenberg, you may conduct the examination. mr. eisenberg. mr. cole, could you state your full name, please? mr. cole. that is alwyn cole. the chairman. i am obliged to spend the morning with the court. we are hearing arguments today and when i leave, in a short time, congressman ford will preside at the meeting and conduct it. mr. eisenberg. what is your position, mr. cole? mr. cole. i am employed as examiner of questioned documents with the u.s. treasury department. mr. eisenberg. can you state your specific duties in this position? mr. cole. i am required to examine any document in which the treasury department is interested when a question arises about the genuineness of the document or the identity of any of its parts. a good deal of this work includes the identification of handwriting. mr. eisenberg. from what sources is work referred to your laboratory, mr. cole? mr. cole. from the several divisions of the office of the treasury of the united states, and from the various bureaus of the treasury department, including the enforcement agencies: secret service, narcotics, customs, internal revenue service. mr. eisenberg. mr. cole, can you tell us how you prepared yourself to carry on this work of questioned documents examination? mr. cole. i served an apprenticeship of years under mr. burt farrar from to . mr. farrar at that time was the document examiner for the treasury department, and at the time of my association with him he had had over years of experience in the work. under mr. farrar's tutelage i studied the leading textbooks on the subject of questioned documents, which includes handwriting identification, and i received from him cases for practice examination of progressively increasing difficulty, made these examinations, prepared reports for his review, and also during this period i had assignments to other government laboratories, those of the bureau of engraving and printing and the government printing office, and i had close association with other technical workers in the government service. i succeeded mr. farrar in , and i have had daily practical contact with questioned problems from to the present date. mr. eisenberg. mr. cole, are you a member of any associations of persons engaged in questioned documents examination? mr. cole. yes, sir; i am. mr. eisenberg. could you state those positions? mr. cole. i am a member of the american society of questioned document examiners, of the international association for identification, and of the american academy of forensic science. mr. eisenberg. do you give instructions to others in this work, mr. cole? mr. cole. i do. i am an instructor at the treasury department law enforcement officer training school. mr. eisenberg. have you had occasion to testify in federal or other courts? mr. cole. yes, sir; i have, many times. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, i ask that this witness be permitted to give expert testimony on the subject of questioned documents. the chairman. the witness is qualified. mr. eisenberg. mr. cole, i now show you a photograph of an envelope and a purchase order. the envelope is addressed to klein's, in chicago, from one "a. hidell," and the purchase order, which is included in the photograph, is an order also addressed to klein's from "a. hidell," and i ask you whether you have examined this photograph. mr. cole. i have. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, may i have this admitted into evidence as commission exhibit ? the chairman. it may be admitted. (commission exhibit no. was marked and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. for the record, this photograph was produced from a roll of microfilm in the possession of klein's, a chicago firm which sells weapons of various types, and which sold the assassination weapon. now, mr. cole, i am going to hand you a group of documents which i will identify for the record. the first is an application form to cosmos shipping co., inc., signed lee h. oswald, and containing handprinting and cursive writing. have you examined that document, mr. cole? mr. cole. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. may i have this admitted as commission exhibit , mr. chairman? the chairman. it may be admitted. (commission exhibit no. was marked and received in evidence.) the chairman. i wonder if it might not be better to put the tab on the document itself because someone in handling it might take it out of the envelope. (discussion off the record.) mr. eisenberg. the second document is a letter addressed to the american embassy, entitled "affidavit of support," and signed lee h. oswald. mr. cole. i have examined this document. mr. eisenberg. i would like that admitted as , mr. chairman. the chairman. it may be admitted. (commission exhibit no. was marked and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. the third is a group of checks made payable to the order of lee h. oswald, and the company listed on the top of the check is jaggars-chiles-stovall, inc. these checks are endorsed on the back "lee h. oswald," and i ask you whether you have examined these documents? mr. cole. i have examined these documents. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, may these be admitted as ? the chairman. they may be admitted. (commission exhibit was marked and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. here i would like to mark the envelope. the fourth item is a library card for the new orleans parish, or the orleans parish, and the signature is lee h. oswald. mr. cole. i have examined this document. mr. eisenberg. may i have this admitted as ? the chairman. it may be admitted. (commission exhibit no. was marked and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. the next item consists of photographs of two letters to the department of state, both concerning payments on loans, repayments of loans, and both signed "lee h. oswald," and i ask whether you have examined these documents? mr. cole. i have examined these photographs. mr. eisenberg. may these be admitted as ? the chairman. they may be admitted. (commission exhibit no. was marked and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. next are two pages of writing on lined and holed paper entitled "the communist party of the united states has betrayed itself!" and numbered " " and " ," with some discoloration. mr. cole, have you examined those? mr. cole. i have examined these. the discoloration mentioned was on the documents when i first saw them. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, may these be admitted as ? the chairman. admitted. (commission exhibit no. was marked and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. next is a file entitled "oswald, lee harvey, usmc"--which stands for marine corps--serial number or file number , and then another number appears, , and this has various writing, certain of which are signed by lee h. oswald, together with letters to lee h. oswald, and i ask you if you have examined this file, mr. cole? mr. cole. yes; i have. mr. eisenberg. may this be admitted as , mr. chairman? the chairman. it may be admitted. (commission exhibit no. was marked and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. next is a passport application signed "lee h. oswald," dated in the upper right "passport issued june , ," and there are other dates which appear--principally june , --in other portions of the application. mr. cole, have you examined that? mr. cole. i have examined this document. mr. eisenberg. may i have this admitted as , mr. chairman? the chairman. it may be admitted. (commission exhibit no. was marked, and received into evidence.) mr. eisenberg. next is a letter entitled "dear sirs: this is in regard to my wife's file" and so forth, addressed apparently to the immigration and naturalization offices in san antonio, tex., signed "lee h. oswald," together with another such letter addressed to the same--addressed to dallas, tex., the office of immigration and naturalization, dallas, tex., signed "lee h. oswald," and a third letter to room , rio grande building, north field street. these letters, all signed "lee h. oswald", and all having to do with aspects of immigration and naturalization, are entitled or numbered on the backs respectively , dated july , , dated--that is july , , in the first-- , dated july---- mr. cole. i believe it is . mr. eisenberg. july , , and , dated july , . have you examined these three documents? mr. cole. i have. mr. eisenberg. may these be admitted as a, b, and c, mr. chairman? the chairman. they may be admitted under those numbers. mr. eisenberg. and finally, an item consisting of two subitems, one a short note signed "lee h. oswald" and beginning, "please enroll me as an associate member at $ . ," relating to the aclu, and the second item being an application to the american civil liberties union national office, "please enroll me as a new member of the aclu," name printed "lee h. oswald," and i ask you whether you have examined these two items. mr. cole. i have. mr. eisenberg. may these be admitted under the common caption ? the chairman. they may be admitted. (commission exhibits nos. a, b, c, and were marked and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. now, mr. cole, have you compared the documents - , all signed "lee h. oswald," with the document , the photograph of a purchase order to klein's sporting goods, for purposes of determining whether the author of the documents - also authored the document ? mr. cole. yes, sir; i have. mr. eisenberg. what is your conclusion? mr. cole. it is my conclusion that the author of the standard writing bearing the exhibit numbers which you just related---- mr. eisenberg. - ? mr. cole. - , is the author of the handwriting on commission exhibit . mr. eisenberg. now, you referred to the term "standard writing," mr. cole. can you explain that term? mr. cole. i used these as the standard writing, as a basis for comparison. mr. eisenberg. "these" referring to - ? mr. cole. yes. mr. eisenberg. those standards would be what you would refer to, therefore, what might also be referred to as "known" items? mr. cole. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. and the document is the "questioned" item? mr. cole. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. now for the record, in the future i will refer collectively to - as the standards. the chairman. they were all written by the same person? mr. cole. yes, your honor. mr. eisenberg. mr. cole, were these the only standards or potential standards from which you had to draw, or were a larger group of potential standards furnished to you? mr. cole. i saw a larger group of papers of potential standards. mr. eisenberg. can you state the circumstances under which this larger group was given to you? mr. cole. i came to your office and reviewed a very large group of papers, and i pointed out what i would regard as a cross section or representative sample from that larger group of papers. mr. eisenberg. and can you explain the basis on which you took the actual standards - , that is, on which you selected those documents from the larger possible group of documents which might have served as standards? mr. cole. well, two bases: one, that the writing is fairly clear and legible; most of these documents are not stained or mutilated in any way; all the writing can be seen clearly. and, two, i think that this group of papers gives a complete, reasonably complete record of the writing habits of the author. mr. eisenberg. mr. cole, continuing on these standards for a moment, have you examined other questioned documents besides commission at my request? mr. cole. i have. mr. eisenberg. do the standards which you selected, that is, items through , in your opinion provide a sufficient basis for comparison of the other questioned documents which you also examined? mr. cole. they do provide a satisfactory basis for comparison. mr. eisenberg. are they sufficiently close in time, both to and to the other questioned documents which you have examined? mr. cole. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. does handwriting change over the course of time, mr. cole? mr. cole. handwriting does change over the course of time, but usually fairly large periods are involved, or years or such. mr. eisenberg. is there any variation in the writing instruments which were used to produce the various standards? mr. cole. yes; i think a variety of instruments were used. mr. eisenberg. does this affect your ability to use the standards as against the questioned documents or as against those questioned documents produced with other writing instruments? mr. cole. it does not adversely affect my ability to make a comparison. mr. eisenberg. that is, you are able to compare a document produced by a ballpoint pen with a document produced by a fountain pen and vice versa? mr. cole. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. do the standards show both cursive writing and handprinting? mr. cole. yes. mr. eisenberg. can you explain meaning of the term "cursive writing"? mr. cole. cursive means connected writing, as the term is used, with a running connected hand, whereas handprinting refers to the separate writing of letters without the connection of letters and usually involves a somewhat different style for the formation of letters, that is roman capital letters or the lower case letters. mr. eisenberg. cursive writing then is the type of writing which we normally use, which connects--in which the letters are connected, the type which is taught in schools? mr. cole. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. mr. cole, some of the standards which are in the group to are photographs rather than originals. mr. cole. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. does a photograph in your opinion provide a sufficient standard on which to base a conclusion as to a questioned document? mr. cole. well, i believe these particular photographs are satisfactory for that purpose. mr. eisenberg. would you draw a conclusion as to the origin of a questioned document if your only standard was a photograph? mr. cole. if the photographs were comparable to the photographs we have in this case; yes. mr. eisenberg. mr. cole, you examined the standards in their entirety, did you? mr. cole. i did. mr. eisenberg. and you have stated in answer to an earlier question they were all prepared by the same person, as i understood it? mr. cole. yes, sir. representative ford. what is unique about these photographs that gives you this certainty or---- mr. cole. well, i did not mean to indicate they are of a specially good quality, but i had in mind the possible existence of other photographs which would be much poorer and would not provide a satisfactory basis. i think that on these photographs i can see everything that is necessary to see to appreciate writing habit. mr. eisenberg. now, when you say the standards were all written by one person, that is with the exception of initials put on by law enforcement officers and the like? mr. cole. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. now, mr. cole, returning to , the questioned document, can you tell the commission how you formed the conclusion that it was prepared by the author of the standards, that is, what steps you followed in your examination and comparison, what things you considered, what instruments or equipment you used, and so forth? mr. cole. i made first a careful study of the writing on commission exhibit without reference to the standard writing, in an effort to determine whether or not this writing contained what i would regard as a basis for identification, contained a record of writing habit, and as that--as a result of that part of my examination, i concluded that this is a natural handwriting. by that i mean that it was made at a fair speed, that it doesn't show any evidence of an unnatural movement, poor line quality, tremor, waver, retouching, or the like. i regard it as being made in a fluent and fairly rapid manner which would record the normal writing habits of the person who made it. i then made a separate examination of the standards, of all of the standard writings, to determine whether that record gave a record of writing habit which could be used for identification purposes, and i concluded that it, too, was a natural handwriting and gave a good record of writing habit. i then brought the standard writings together with the questioned writing for a detailed and orderly comparison, considering details of letter forms, proportion, pen pressure, letter connections, and other details of handwriting habit, and as a part of my examination i made photographs of the standard writings and brought certain parts of them together on a chart for greater convenience in comparing the standards with the questioned writing. the chairman. gentlemen, i think it will be necessary for me to leave now, congressman ford, you will preside, will you, please? i appreciate it. (discussion off the record.) (at this point, the chief justice left the hearing room.) representative ford. proceed. mr. eisenberg. mr. cole, you mentioned that the writing in both the questioned document, , and the standard seem to be produced at a natural speed. mr. cole. yes. mr. eisenberg. how do you determine that any document is produced at a natural speed? mr. cole. because that conforms to a large number of other specimens that i have examined over a period of years which i knew to be normal writing. specifically, it agrees with respect to the quality of the line, which is reasonably good in this handwriting and which i would expect to be quite poor in an unnatural specimen, one that had been made at an abnormally reduced writing speed. mr. eisenberg. can you expand further on what you mean by "quality of the line"? mr. cole. well, quality of line is--refers to the sharpness of the edges of lines, to the absence of tremor, waver, patching, retouching, and similar defects. mr. eisenberg. mr. cole, could you explain the basis on which you were able to make an identification of a questioned writing as being authored by the person who wrote a standard writing? mr. cole. this is based upon the principle that every handwriting is distinctive, that since the mental and physical equipment for producing handwriting is different in every individual, each person produces his own distinctive writing habits. of course, everyone learns to write in the beginning by an endeavor to repeat ideal letter forms, but practically no one is able to reproduce these forms exactly. even though a person might have some initial success during the active period of instruction, he soon departs from these and develops his own habits. it may be said that habit in handwriting is that which makes handwriting possible. habit is that which makes handwriting efficient. if it were not for the development of habit, one would he obliged to draw or sketch. some habit would be included even in those efforts. but the production of handwriting rapidly and fluently always involves a recording of personal writing habit. this has been confirmed by observation of a very large number of specimens over a long period of time, and it has further been demonstrated by, on my part, having a formal responsibility for rendering decisions about the identification of handwriting based upon an agreement of handwriting habit in situations where there would be a rigorous testing of the correctness of these decisions by field investigators, for example, of the law-enforcement agencies, and a demonstration that these results were confirmed by other evidence. this is the basis for identification of handwriting. mr. eisenberg. as i understand it, you mean you would make a preliminary identification of a suspect on the basis of handwriting and it has been your experience that field investigation confirms that determination with additional evidence? mr. cole. this is not what i would call "a preliminary identification." this would be a formal presentation and formal report to other persons who are interested in the problem, and the investigation would be continued from that point. mr. eisenberg. mr. cole, is handprinting as well as cursive writing unique to every individual? mr. cole. well, i would say much of it is. not all of it. handprinting doesn't always give the same amount of information about writing habit as does cursive writing. mr. eisenberg. are you always able to identify the author of a writing if you have a questioned document and a standard document? mr. cole. no, sir; not always. mr. eisenberg. and can you expand on that? mr. cole. well, some handwriting doesn't include enough distinctive features, or in some cases there may not be enough of it to give a complete enough record of handwriting habits to be certain that you have a basis for identification. mr. eisenberg. do you need a sufficient basis in both the questioned and the standard? mr. cole. yes. mr. eisenberg. do the standards that you have selected provide a sufficient basis for making identification? mr. cole. they do. mr. eisenberg. without going into every questioned document separately, do the questioned documents which you have reviewed at my request each individually provide a sufficient basis for comparison? mr. cole. yes, sir. representative ford. is there a difference of opinion in your profession as to how much or how little you need for this purpose? mr. cole. yes; i think it would vary from one worker to another, depending upon his experience in the work. it sometimes happens that a person with limited experience may go to either one extreme or to the other. he may sometimes be rather reckless. other times he may be extremely cautious. representative ford. but the decision you have made in this case would be what other experts, in your opinion, would agree to? mr. cole. i would say others with whom i am familiar, with whom i have worked and talked to, corresponded with over the years. mr. eisenberg. mr. cole, can you characterize the skill of the author of the standards and exhibit ? mr. cole. i would say it is an average skill. mr. eisenberg. are some of the standards prepared more skillfully than others? mr. cole. yes. mr. eisenberg. can you account for that at all? mr. cole. i think there is a natural range of the use of skill in handwriting, possibly depending upon the purpose or the physical surroundings for producing handwriting or the writing instruments. when the conditions for producing handwriting are the best, and one's purpose is a perfectly free expression of his handwriting habit, then he may produce a better handwriting than when conditions are poor, such as an awkward writing position or poor writing tools. mr. eisenberg. mr. cole, you mentioned earlier that you had prepared some photographs or charts---- mr. cole. yes. mr. eisenberg. showing the standards or portions thereof? mr. cole. yes. mr. eisenberg. could you produce those charts? mr. cole. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. now, mr. cole, you have produced here three large charts, each entitled "standard writing" and bearing the designations "a," "b," and "c" in the upper left-hand corners. can you tell us precisely what is reflected on these charts a, b, and c? mr. cole. these charts show excerpts from the standard writings, sometimes showing a portion of a line, other times showing a single word or a block of writing from the standard exhibits. mr. eisenberg. were these charts, which are in the form of photographic reproductions, prepared by you or under your supervision, mr. cole? mr. cole. they were. mr. eisenberg. are they true and accurate reproductions of the portions of the standard writings they purport to reproduce? mr. cole. they are. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, may these be admitted as a, b, and c? representative ford. they may be admitted. (commission exhibits nos. a, b, and c were marked and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. mr. cole, have you prepared a photograph of exhibit ? mr. cole. i have. mr. eisenberg. will you produce that photograph, please? was that photograph made by you or under your supervision? mr. cole. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. and is it a true and accurate reproduction of ? mr. cole. yes, it is. mr. eisenberg. may this be admitted as , mr. chairman? representative ford. it may be. (commission exhibit no. was marked and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. now, the quality of , the reproduction, seems to be somewhat brighter or whiter than . can you explain that? the contrast seems sharper. mr. cole. yes, that was purposely done in an effort to improve the legibility of the handwriting shown on . it simply involves the technique of developing the negative and making the print. it doesn't add to or take anything away from . representative ford. it doesn't change the quality of the handwriting? mr. cole. no, sir. mr. eisenberg. mr. cole, could you please explain by reference to and a, and b, and c, why you concluded that the author of the standards reproduced in part on a, b, and c was also the author of ? mr. cole. there is an agreement in details of the formation of letters which i think are distinctive to this writer. in other words, it involves unusual departures from the conventional or copybook method of forming letters. one example is the capital letter "a" on in the name "a. hidell." the stroke on the left side of that capital is first a down stroke, which is almost exactly retracted by an upstroke. in other words, this is more than necessary to give the bare outline of the letter, and this extra stroke is a characteristic of the standard writing, and it may be observed in a number of places on the charts a, b, and c. one place where it may be observed is on chart "c," item in the capital "a" in "orleans." we have a downstroke on the left side of the letter which is almost exactly retracted by the upstroke. mr. eisenberg. this downstroke starts just above the left side of the bar across the "a," is that the downstroke you are referring to? mr. cole. yes, that is correct. representative ford. would that also be true in chart c, item , in the "a" in "harvey"? mr. cole. yes. as a matter of fact, virtually every "a," capital "a" produced in the standard writing has that feature. there are some few that lack it, but it occurs often enough to show that it is a habit of this writer, and it corresponds with the "a" shown on . now, not all features of this writing are regarded as being useful for identification. some of the more simplified forms naturally have less individuality. that would be true of the capital letter "h" in "hidell." while i don't see any significant difference, neither does the letter have any identifying feature. when we pass over to the letter "i" though, in "hidell," we see a feature which is distinctive, and that is the emphasis on the first stroke of the letter, the elongation of the approach stroke. here again is something which the writer does as a matter of habit, it is not an essential feature for producing a legible "i." and we also have the circumstance that most small letter "i's" show an increase in forehand slant. both of these features, the emphasis of an approach stroke and the increase in forehand slant, are found in the standard writing. representative ford. would you explain in lay terms what you mean by "an increase in forehand slant"? mr. cole. a slant to the right. one place where that may be observed in the letter "i" is on chart a, item , in the word "it." another place where rather an exaggerated effect of the elongation of the approach stroke may be observed is on chart a, item , in the "t" of the "the." of course, this requires a similar movement as that used in producing the letter "i," and this elongation of the approach stroke agrees with the effect found on . mr. eisenberg. mr. cole, in chart a, item , the word "in" appears. do you see the same elongated approach stroke in that word? mr. cole. it is not elongated, but it is made somewhat with extra pressure. we also have an instance of extra pressure on "i"--there is a very small bulb of ink which indicates an extra pressure on the beginning stroke. i might point that out as being a feature of the approach stroke shown in the letter "t" on chart a, item . mr. eisenberg. proceed. mr. cole. now, i won't mention each and every letter in this writing. when i pass over a letter, the meaning is that at that particular point i don't find anything distinctive with respect to writing habit, although at the same time i do not find any significant difference. i now move to the combination of "l," the double "l's" in "hidell" in . here we observe that the second "l" is somewhat larger than the first, and we find from time to time in the standard writing where there are a pair of "l's" that the second is larger than the first, one example is chart a, item , the word "filled." in the capital letter "b" of the word "box" on , still in the upper left corner, we observe that the upper lobe of the "b," that is, the closed circular form near the top of the letter, is somewhat smaller than the lower lobe. these proportions i observed in the standard writing, one item is found on chart a, item , "b" of "board." in the capital "d" of "dallas" on , the relationship of the capital loop, i mean the looped form at the top of that capital letter, is similar to that relationship which we found in "d's" of the standard writing, one item being on chart b, item , in the abbreviation "dept.," and in that same item the capital "d" of "d.c." along the bottom line. mr. eisenberg. mr. cole, on chart a- there is another initial "d." would you say that bears the same conformation? mr. cole. yes; it is similar, although the loop is not complete. the aspect of the cap loop, i would say, would be the same if the loop had been completed. it is not as complete there as it is in other examples. in the word "dallas," the terminal "s," still referring to , is modified from the conventional or copybook method of making that letter by being flattened out, forced far over on its side. in other words, it has an extreme forehand slant rather than standing up in a more vertical position which we would find in a copybook. the same is true of the terminal "s" in the word "texas" in that area. now this, too, is a habit found in the standard writings, one good example being chart b at the end of item , the "s" of the word "this." in the word "texas" a very distinctive method of forming the letter "x" is observed. now, this involves first the production, passing directly from the letter "e" first the production of a point or cusp, and then an underhand movement similar to that which would be required for the letter "u," then with the pencil on the paper another point or cusp is produced. the word is finished with the letters "as," and then the cross bar is made in such a manner that it runs along the side of the second cusp. in other words, the basic part of the "x" form, that is, the part which is connected to the other writings, is somewhat in the shape of a shallow "u." may i demonstrate that on a pad here? mr. eisenberg. please, mr. cole. mr. cole. i have just drawn here an "x" diagraming the form observed on which shows its production of a shallow "u" shape, with the cross bar striking across the second point of that "u" shaped form. this, i say, is highly distinctive, and it is found in the standard writing in several places. mr. eisenberg. pardon me. mr. chairman, may i introduce that diagram as ? representative ford. it may be admitted. (commission exhibit no. was marked and received in evidence.) mr. cole. this distinctive formation of the "x" is observed on chart b, item , in the word "texas," also in the same chart b, item , in the word "texas," and also item on the same chart. mr. eisenberg. mr. cole, did you say there was no pen lift after finishing the second cusp, until the letters "as" are added? mr. cole. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. so that the "x" is not crossed, so to speak, until the entire word is correct. mr. cole. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. how distinctive would you regard this form as being? mr. cole. well, i regard it as highly unusual and carrying a good deal of weight for identification purposes, because it is a wide departure from the copybook method or conventional method of making the letter, and it involves the addition of a part rather than an omission which might come from carelessness. still considering exhibit and inspecting the word "air" of "air mail," just under the stamp, i find a correspondence in the letter forms with the standard writing. chart b, item , where the same word is reproduced, "air." one distinctive feature there is the simplified method of making the shoulder of the letter "r." where the copybook or conventional form would show first a point at the top of the "r" and then the production of a rounded shoulder, this omits the point, form and develops immediately into a rapidly sloping or curving down slope. mr. eisenberg. will you illustrate the copybook form on your chart paper, mr. cole? mr. cole. the conventional or copybook form of this "r" would be approximately in this manner: cusp at the top, broad shoulder on the right side. mr. eisenberg. may i have that admitted as , mr. chairman, the copybook form of the "r"? representative ford. it may be admitted. (commission exhibit no. was marked and received in evidence.) mr. cole. the letter "m" in "mail" in , with respect to the unusually broad spread of the arches of that letter, corresponds with the letter "m" on chart b, item , top line, in the word "me," where we have a similar spreading of the width of the arches of the "m." the capital "k" in the word "klein's" on compares favorably with "k's" in the standard writing, chart a, items and . again, this word "klein's" demonstrates a habit on of a somewhat greater forehand slant for the letter "i," that is, as contrasted with the slant observed for the letter "e," and it also shows this tendency to flatten out or run the letter "s" along the writing lines, rather than giving it a more vertical position, and this has already been observed in the standard writing. the entire word "dept." that is, the abbreviation "dept," on , compares favorably with that word as shown on chart b, item , that is the same abbreviation, "dept." i will mention specifically two details of the letter "p." one is that it lacks an upper extension, which is a part shown in most copybook forms. in other words, there is no part of the staff--which, of course, is connected to the lower extension--which extends above the body of that letter, and that is true both as between the questioned "p" on and that shown on chart b, item , in the abbreviation of "dept." another feature is the failure to bring the body in to a point where it touches the staff, and this is a frequent feature in the "p's" in the standard writing. now, on chart b, not only in the abbreviation of the word "dept." in item , but moving down to consideration of item and the word "receipt," we observe a similar effect in the letter "p." in the letter "t," a distinctive feature is the abruptness of ending that letter just before it reaches the writing line, which would differ from other letters, which touch the writing line, and many of which have a rising terminal stroke. in the questioned writing on in "t" of "dept," and also in the "t" in the abbreviation of "street" in the line below, we have just such a thing in the letter "t" which is shown from time to time in the standard writing--one example being chart a, item in the abbreviation of "street." we have the same effect on chart a, item , in the word "it." in the word "washington" on , one distinctive feature is the curved staff of the letter "g." in other words, there is a continuous curve from the apex of the "g" down to the bottom of the lower extension, and this method of treating a "g" is repeated in the standard writing, one example being chart a, item , in the word "obligations." mr. eisenberg. would that also be true in chart b, item , in the word "washington"? mr. cole. yes, sir; a very good example of it. mr. eisenberg. mr. cole, that item b- is spelled differently from the standard, from the questioned document, rather. does that--what is your opinion as to that variation in spelling? mr. cole. there are a number of misspellings in the standard writings, and sometimes in the standard you will find words repeated in a correct spelling and at other times with an incorrect spelling. in other words, there is a variation in that respect. i think it comes partly from carelessness, not essentially from lack of knowledge of how to spell the word. representative ford. these variations would be in the same letter or the same document? mr. cole. yes; sometimes. mr. eisenberg. actually there is an example of that in b- , where washington is spelled incorrectly? mr. cole. that is correct. now, in the combination of letters "cago" just below the word "washington" on , we also have a repetition of this curved right side of the letter "g" found also in the standard writing, and another feature worth noticing there is the closing of the letter "o" rather far back on the upper left side of the letter. this is distinctive because many writers are reluctant to make leftward strokes, since the normal movement of handwriting is from left to right, and this i would say represents a writing habit in the questioned writing which is also repeated in the standard in a number of places. chart b, in the abbreviation "no," of item , that is, the second segment of item , and also in the zero, item , you see a similar method of closing that circular form far back on the left side of the letter. representative ford. that would appear also in b- in the word "to"? mr. cole. yes, sir. representative ford. is there a difference in b- "you"? mr. cole. yes, sir; there is, but we are dealing with a terminal form in the questioned writing. in other words, the opportunities for expressing this particular habit is present in terminal forms and not medial forms, the forms inside a word. mr. eisenberg. do you find generally or often that a writer's terminal forms or beginning forms will differ from the forms inside of the--the letters inside of the word? mr. cole. yes; in that it gives a different opportunity for expression of writing habit. mr. eisenberg. so is this an unusual--is this unusual, then that the terminal form should be different? mr. cole. no; not at all. i invite attention to the exaggerated length of the comma following the figure " " on . this is repeated in the standard writing on chart b, item , the comma following the word "chief." also on chart b the commas in items and , following the word "dallas." the double "l's" of the abbreviation "ill" on , again show the habit of making the second "l" somewhat larger than the first, which was previously pointed out as corresponding to the standard writing on chart a, item in the word "filled." the form of the capital letter "i" of "ill" on compares favorably with that form as on on chart b, items and where we have the personal pronoun "i." now, moving now to the writing which is a part of the order form bearing the name "klein's" on this same exhibit , i will draw attention to the method of making the dollar sign before the amount " . ." in the copybook or conventional method of making this particular sign the "=s=" shape is usually fairly prominent. in other words, the crossbars are usually subordinated to the "=s=" shape. here we observe a very heavy pressure and exaggerated length and wide spacing of those crossbars, which almost obliterate the "=s=" shaped part of the dollar sign. this is shown in the standard writing chart b, item , second line, the dollar sign preceding "$ ." on this order form the figure " " of the amount "$ . " shows an exaggerated length of the final stroke of the " ," i mean the approximately horizontal stroke across the top of the letter. that same habit was previously observed in the " " of the combination " " at the upper left of . now, this method of--excuse me, let me mention one more example of that letter " " on . on the order form, the figure " " of the post office box number " " shows the same feature. moving now to the standard writing, we find that treatment of the letter " ," of the figure " ," on chart b, item , in the combination of figures " ." it is also shown on chart b, item , in the combination of figures " ," and again in the same position, item of chart b. in the name "a. hidell," i observe that we have a capital "h" and we have capital forms of the "l's" but the remainder of the name uses lower case letters, "ide" as lower case letters. mr. eisenberg. this is in the order blank again? mr. cole. yes, sir. this habit of using a combination of capital and small letters is a habit in the standard writing. one example would be chart c, item , where various words show a similar mixture. for example, in the name "oswald" we have capital forms for "o," "s," "w," and "a," but a lower case letter for the "l" and "d." dropping down to the word "mercedes," we have capital forms for "m," "r," "c," and "s," but in that same word the letters "e" and "d" have lower case forms. and this mixture of capitals and small letters, as i say is found frequently in the standard writing. mr. eisenberg. well, is a mixture like that infrequent--apart from the particular letters which you use as small or large letters? mr. cole. well, i would say it is a part of this man's handwriting habit to make such mixtures. another person who might mix capital and lower case forms might perhaps select different letters for that purpose. in other words, i think in this writing we find that very frequently as to the letter "i" and the letter "e." mr. eisenberg. is the fact of mixture itself significant? mr. cole. yes; it is a part of his writing habit. mr. eisenberg. how highly individualistic is the fact of mixture to this person's writing? mr. cole. i regard it as having a fair weight. i wouldn't classify it with the very considerable weight we give to that distorted form of the "x" but i think it is just one more point for consideration with all of the other similarities. a similar mixture is found in the word "texas." again referring to the order form of , we have all capital letters except the letter "e," and then moving over to the standard writing, see the word "texas" on chart c, item , the use of capital letters except as to the "e" form. representative ford. the same would be true, i gather, on c- in the use of "e" in the word "texas"? mr. cole. yes, sir. this combination of agreement in the details of forms of letters, proportions, and other features between the writing on commission exhibit and various parts of the standard writing constitute the basis for my opinion that the writings are in the hand of the same person. mr. eisenberg. mr. cole, in many cases you have either pointed to, or it can be noted, that there are differences or variations within the writing of the standards or in the writing of the questioned documents. is this unusual? mr. cole. no; as a matter of fact, it is usual to find variations in handwriting, and, of course, that is demonstrated by the various standard writing that we have here, where you find the same combination of letters they are not identical with a photographic sameness, but they have a range of variation. i would say that no part of the questioned writing that we have considered on would go outside of that normal range of variation which is true in the standards. mr. eisenberg. did you find any differences between --or , of which is a reproduction--and the standards? mr. cole. i don't find anything that i would regard as a significant difference, but, of course, there are points where there is not a perfect identity. for example, in the combination of letters "ill." an abbreviation for illinois, while we don't have that same abbreviation in the standards, we have got the full name written out on chart b, item , and item . we have a smooth curved connection between the "i" and the following "l" in those particular parts of the standard, but there is an angular connection on between the same letters. that is a difference or variation, but i don't regard it as necessarily being a significant one. it could be merely an accidental feature, a momentary hesitation on before proceeding into the making of the "l." mr. eisenberg. why don't you conclude on the basis of that difference that the questioned document was written by a different author than the standard documents? mr. cole. because it is not nearly enough to raise such a question. there would be required for an opinion that this was made by some other person, a similar body of differences corresponding to the similarities that i have talked about. in other words, if in fact this was in the handwriting of some other person, i would expect to be able to make about the same demonstration with respect to differences as i have already made with regard to similarity. mr. eisenberg. would you need to find as many differences as similarities in order to say there was a different author involved in the questioned and standard? mr. cole. no; depending upon the character of the differences. a fairly small number would prevent a conclusion of identity or show the hand of some other person, if they were really distinctive differences. mr. eisenberg. mr. cole, did you find any evidence in that the author attempted to disguise his handwriting? mr. cole. were you referring to ? mr. eisenberg. is a reproduction of . you can use to answer the question, yes. mr. cole. there is one faint suggestion of that possibility. it doesn't permit a conclusion that that was the purpose. but i refer to the use of a lower case "t" in the word "texas" in the return address in the upper left corner. since this writer demonstrates a good knowledge about the formation of capital letters, it is possible that the choice to make a lower case "t" was a deliberate one, and it could have been at that particular point for the purpose of disguise. but i say if that was his purpose, it certainly was not maintained, and would be a very faint effort toward disguise. mr. eisenberg. mr. cole, do you consider it unusual for a person to use an alias without attempting to disguise his handwriting? mr. cole. no; i would not. mr. eisenberg. have you had any experience along those lines? mr. cole. yes; i have observed a number of aliases where there is no particular effort to disguise. mr. eisenberg. in your capacity as questioned document examiner of the treasury department, do you receive for examination checks, the endorsements on which have been forged? mr. cole. yes. mr. eisenberg. and on any occasion does the endorsement, the forged endorsement, does the forged endorsement indicate that no effort, no attempt has been made to disguise the endorsements? mr. cole. that is a rather frequent condition, that the spurious endorsement is made without an attempt to conceal or disguise writing habit or to imitate the writing of any other person. mr. eisenberg. mr. cole, do you know on the basis of your experience whether individuals ever resort to handprinting as an attempt at disguise? mr. cole. yes; it is a rather frequent method of disguise. mr. eisenberg. now, you testified earlier that handprinting can be identified as to author? mr. cole. yes. mr. eisenberg. is this common knowledge, that is to say---- mr. cole. it is common knowledge among document examiners. i don't think it is common knowledge among others. mr. eisenberg. might a layman attempt to disguise his handwriting simply by resorting to undisguised handprinting? mr. cole. yes; he might. mr. eisenberg. what are the usual evidences of disguise, by the way, mr. cole? mr. cole. well, in cursive handwriting the usual evidences of disguise involve some unnaturalness, such as a reduction of writing speed, and other distortions such as writing very large, with an exaggerated freedom, where parts of letters of various words are run together; such as an exaggerated length of lower extensions and upward extensions which tends to intermingle forms and make it difficult to see the details of them; or writing very small, in almost microscopic size where, again, the width of a pen stroke itself tends to conceal details of handwriting; alterations of slant, such as a person who normally writes a forehand slant or slanting to the right, changing to a vertical or a backhand slant. most efforts at disguise are not well planned. they usually involve a determination to alter the writing along one particular line such as writing very large, very small, or a change in the slant. other features are the simplification of letter forms. for example, a person attempting to conceal a writing habit may feel that his writing habit is revealed mostly by capital letters so you might have him using printed forms for capitals, but cursive forms for most other letters. representative ford. can you tell the difference between a right-handed and a left-handed person by either cursive or capital letters? mr. cole. no, sir; not definitely. left-handed writers tend to write more vertically, and for that particular left-hand writer who holds his hand above the writing line, this gives a reversal of the pressure on what would ordinarily be regarded as upstrokes and downstrokes, and when you see that reversal this is an indication of left-hand writing. but it is only when you have that special circumstance that you get that signal about it. representative ford. is there anything in any of the writings that you have analyzed of lee harvey oswald of an indication that he was left-handed? mr. cole. well, i wouldn't say that i could make a determination of whether he was left-handed or right-handed. mr. eisenberg. mr. cole, in your expert work do you draw a distinction between a spurious and a forged document? mr. cole. well, i think of the word "forgery" as having that legal connotation of malice or intent. the production of a false writing with an intention to deceive or defraud somebody else. spurious writing means a false writing. mr. eisenberg. that is, a writing produced by one hand calculated to look as if it had been produced by another? mr. cole. well, not necessarily, that situation that you just discussed would involve simulation of the person's, another person's writing. but the word "spurious" could refer to a false writing, the writing of the name of one person by another who had no particular right to do it. but, of course, if the element of an intent to defraud is not there, i suppose in a legal sense it is not forgery. mr. eisenberg. now, what are the elements which you look for to see whether a person, a, has attempted to reproduce the handwriting of another person, b, with intent to deceive or otherwise? mr. cole. two categories of differences. one, defects of line quality, by which is meant tremor, waver, patching, retouching, and noncontinuous lines, pen lifts in awkward and unusual places. and the other class of differences is details of the forms of letters, by which i mean that when the person attempting to simulate another writing concentrates upon the reproduction of one detail, he is likely not to see other details. he may, for example, be able to imitate the gross form of a letter but he may get proportions wrong or letter connections wrong. mr. eisenberg. what is the probability that person a could imitate the handwriting of person b without leaving a telltale trace in one of these two categories? mr. cole. i think it is only a very remote possibility. but i would add to that the need for having a fairly extensive specimen of writing. of course the possibility of a successful simulation is better with smaller specimens of writing. mr. eisenberg. now, did you find any evidence in either category that a person had attempted to simulate the writing of the author of the standards in this case in producing either or any of the other questioned documents which you examined? mr. cole. no; i did not find such indications. mr. eisenberg. and you feel, did you say, there would be only a remote probability that in the absence of such indication such a simulation could exist? mr. cole. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. when you say remote, could you put this in terms of figures? mr. cole. i would say there is no reasonable possibility of it, and i will put it this way: that from my study of these documents, there is no particular element or elements of the handwriting that i can point to and say this could be evidence of simulation. mr. eisenberg. you mentioned before that you need to have a sufficient amount of writing to make that type of determination. do you feel that the questioned documents provided a sufficient amount of writing for that? mr. cole. they do. mr. eisenberg. is that individually or collectively? mr. cole. individually. representative ford. all of the illustrations on a, b, and c are taken from commission exhibits---- mr. eisenberg. - . representative ford. collectively? mr. cole. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. carrying that question forward, on what basis did you select excerpts from to to reproduce a, b, and c? mr. cole. the chief effort was to collect together in a fairly small space items that were appropriate for comparison through repetition of the same material, and in doing that there was kept in mind the general purpose of giving a good representative cross section of all of the writing habit illustrated in the standard writings. mr. eisenberg. well, that anticipates my next question, which is, whether this is a representative cross section or was selected in order to reproduce those particular characteristics you find in the questioned documents. mr. cole. i think it is a representative cross section, and i say a part of the effort was to bring here some letters and combinations for convenience of comparison. it was in no way an effort to substitute these charts for the originals. mr. eisenberg. your actual examination was made on the basis of the originals or the charts, mr. cole? mr. cole. yes; all of the--the chief examination was made upon the basis of the originals and all parts of the originals, not limited to the parts shown in the charts. mr. eisenberg. these charts are only for demonstrative purposes, making your testimony easier to follow, is that correct? mr. cole. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. you discussed briefly, mr. cole, or perhaps more than briefly, the use of a photograph as a standard. now, in the case of , a photograph is used as a questioned document, or rather a questioned document consists of a photograph. are the comments you made on the use of a photograph as a standard applicable to the use of a photograph as a questioned document, that is, can you make a determination on the handwriting in a photograph? mr. cole. with these photographs i think a satisfactory determination can be made. i would not necessarily include all photographs. mr. eisenberg. yes? mr. cole. because there is a widely varying quality in photographs. mr. eisenberg. when you say these photographs, do you include the other photographs included among the questioned documents you have examined at my request? mr. cole. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. mr. cole, i now hand you an item consisting of a u.s. postal money order in the amount of $ . , payable to klein's sporting goods, from "a. hidell, p.o. box , dallas, texas." for the record i will state that this money order was included with the purchase order in exhibit which has just been identified, and was intended and used as payment for the weapon shipped in response to the purchase order, . i ask you, mr. cole, whether you have examined this money order for the purpose of determining whether it was prepared by the author of the standards? mr. cole. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. what was your conclusion, mr. cole? mr. cole. it is my conclusion that the handwriting on this money order is in the hand of the person who executed the standard writing. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, may i have this money order admitted as ? representative ford. it may be admitted. (the document was marked as commission exhibit no. , and was received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. have you prepared a photograph of that exhibit , the money order? mr. cole. yes; i have. mr. eisenberg. and you have produced that photograph for me just now, mr. cole? mr. cole. yes. mr. eisenberg. was this prepared by you or under your supervision? mr. cole. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. is it an accurate photograph of ? mr. cole. it is. mr. eisenberg. may this be admitted as , mr. chairman? representative ford. it may be admitted. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. mr. cole, before you discuss your conclusion, the handwriting on seems to have a slight blur in some parts. could you explain that in any way? mr. cole. yes; it is my view that this document has been in contact with moisture which affected the ink of the handwriting. such contact might have been through an effort to develop fingerprints. mr. eisenberg. was it or is it discolored at this point at all, do you think? mr. cole. there are only two small areas of discoloration on this document, one of them being along the upper edge just above the figure " ," and the other along the right edge just opposite the figure " ." this indicates to me that at one time this document was more deeply stained but has been cleared up by some chemical bleach. mr. eisenberg. was it in the same condition when you examined it as it is now? mr. cole. it was. mr. eisenberg. mr. cole, would you explain by use of charts a, b, and c, and the photograph , why you conclude was prepared by the author of the standards in this case? mr. cole. on the photograph, , i invite attention to the capital "k" of "klein's," which compares favorably in form to the "k's" of exhibit--of chart a, items and , with the exception of a larger circle at the center of that "k" on the right side of , which is not reproduced in the standards, but it is my belief that this writer might well produce such a circular form when a letter is somewhat larger and more freely made. mr. eisenberg. on what do you base that belief, mr. cole? mr. cole. that that would be a normal result of greater freedom and a larger writing, it would produce a circular form rather than an angle. mr. eisenberg. is this based upon your experience with questioned documents and making analyses? mr. cole. yes, sir; now, in that---- mr. eisenberg. excuse me second. just to elaborate on that. do i take it that your experience is such that you have found you can predict forms of letters based upon the samples you have before you, predict forms which may be used in other samples by the same author? mr. cole. well, within certain narrow limits. that is, having information about the range of variation in the body of standard writing, it is reasonable to make a small allowance for the production of forms not actually illustrated there, as long as they are consistent with the forms that are actually available for examination. in other words, i would regard it as a consistent thing in this writing to occasionally produce a circle at the center portion of a letter "k"; it does not, in my opinion, represent a difference of writing habit. now, in that same word we observe a habit heretofore mentioned of increasing the amount of forehand slant, in the letter "i"--that is in "klein's" of the photograph --which has previously been observed in the standard writing. several examples have been pointed out. for the present, i will mention the one on chart a, item in the word "obligations," the second letter "i" there shows an increased forehand slant. the same is true of the "i" of the word "firm" on the same line. the combination of letters in the word "sporting," that is, the combination "port," are illustrated in the standard writing, chart a, item in the word "support," item in the word "port," in item in the word "transportation," and here we find very close agreement in all details of those letter forms. with respect to the letter "p," the absence of an under extension, that is, the absence of any part rising above the arched part of the letter on the writing line, and the circumstance that the body of the letter or arch, as it is shown here on the photograph , is not brought all the way into the staff, it is made almost as a pure arch form with no movement in here towards the staff, which is the same movement we have here on chart a, item in the word "port," repeated also on item , and in the two "p's" of item . now, there is a distinctive method of making the connection between the letters "o" and "r," by drawing a very straight line, horizontal line almost exactly paralleling the base of the word across from the letter "o" to the "r" on the photograph , and this movement is also repeated on chart a, items and , in the combination letters "or" also in item in the same combination of letters. this writing demonstrates the habit in the figure " " of a considerable exaggeration of the final stroke of the letter, or the cap stroke, a horizontal stroke at the top of the letter observed on the photograph , and shown in several places in the standard writing, some of which have already been mentioned, one being on chart c, item , and on chart b, items and , the figure " ." also in this writing, we find that highly distinctive "x" form in the word "texas," involving the production of a shallow =u=-shaped form with the crossbar passing across the second point of that =u=-shaped form for the word "texas." this is the basis for my conclusion that the questioned writing on the money order is in the hand of the author of the standard writing. mr. eisenberg. mr. cole, i now hand you commission exhibit , which, for the record, consists of the purchase order to seaport traders from "a. hidell" for the revolver which was used in the murder of officer tippit. mr. cole, have you examined commission exhibit to determine whether it was produced by the author of the standards in this case? mr. cole. i have. mr. eisenberg. what is your conclusion? mr. cole. it is my conclusion that this handwriting is in the hand of the person who produced the standard writing. mr. eisenberg. have you taken a photograph of ? mr. cole. yes, sir; i have. mr. eisenberg. would you produce that, please? was this photograph prepared by you or under your supervision? mr. cole. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. is it an accurate reproduction of ? mr. cole. it is. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, may i have that admitted as ? representative ford. it may be admitted. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. mr. cole, could you explain your reasons for your conclusion by reference to the charts a, b, and c, and to the photograph, ? mr. cole. on the photograph i invite attention to the first line of handprinting, which has a long horizontal line drawn through it. toward the ends of that line there is an amount which appears to read "$ . ," and i draw attention to the form of the dollar sign, which sign has already been mentioned in other writing, and here we find that same feature of subordinating the =s= part of the dollar sign to the crossbars, the crossbars being, or the verticals being made in such a way as to practically obliterate the =s=-shaped part. there, again, that is a feature of writing habit of the author of the writing on which corresponds with the habit in the standard writing shown on chart b, item , second line, in the amount "$ . ." next, i draw your attention, in the approximate area as that just discussed on there, to the amount " . ." now, with respect to the form of the figure " " we observe a rounded cap or top to the letter and a rather prominent loop to the base, and it is observed that the leftward extension of the cap of the letter is considerably short of the amount of leftward motion across the base. this corresponds to the form and placement of parts as shown in the standard writing chart b, item , in the combination " ." in that same amount, on the photograph , again we observe the exaggerated length of the cap of the figure " " which corresponds to the standard writing, chart b, item , the figure " " there. the dollar sign which was previously described is repeated in the amount "$ . " on the left side of the photograph , and i believe that the treatment of the verticals there is the same, that is, an unusually heavy pressure, but it appears that the pen was not delivering a normal quantity of ink at that point. nevertheless, there is this same effect of almost obliterating the =s=-shaped part of the dollar sign. now, moving on down to the bottom part of the photograph , and considering first the form of the "b" in the word "box" on the address line, here again we observe that tendency of a fairly small upper lobe relative to the size of the lower lobe of the "b," and this is repeated in the standard writing, one place being chart b, item , in the "b" of "box." the word "dallas" on the photograph shows capital "l's" which have a compound curve across the base: that is, instead of a simplified form of letter, where there would be a simple straight line across the base, we have first a rising stroke and then a stroke that curves downward towards the writing line. this compound curve across the base of "l's" is repeated in the standard writing, chart b, item and , in the same word "dallas." again, on the photograph , the second letter "a" in "dallas" illustrates a habit previously mentioned of using a downstroke to begin the left side of the "a," which stroke is almost exactly traced, and this too is repeated in the standard, chart b, item , the second "a" of "dallas." opposite the printed word "state" on photograph , the word "texas" again shows this mixture of capital forms and lower-case forms, specifically the use of a lower case "e" in combination with capital letters, which is true in the standard writing, chart b, items and , in the word "texas." this constitutes my reasons for believing that the questioned writing shown in the photograph is in the hand of the author of the standard writing. mr. eisenberg. mr. cole, there seems to be a very varying amount of blackness or color in the ink on commission exhibit , which is shown up in your photograph. do you have any explanation for that? mr. cole. i think the pen was not functioning properly, that very heavy pressure was used on the document to bring the ink down from the pen, and we can see that the writer is reacting to this, for example, in the word "box" on the address line, where you have only a moderate quantity of ink and then as you move along to the figures " " you observe that heavier pressure is used. in other words, it is my view that the writer observed that the pen was tending to fail, and that he increased pressure in order to persuade more ink to come down from the pen. mr. eisenberg. there also seems to be a doubling of lines in some parts, such as the "j" in "a. j. hidell," and the upper area also of "a. j. hidell." mr. cole. yes; that could very well be for the same reasons, because if you move to the upper part of this exhibit there are other places where the pen almost failed. you have strokes that have a shallow center with ink only on the outside borders of strokes. mr. eisenberg. mr. cole, can you make out the writing which is printed in and then crossed out in this exhibit? mr. cole. well, a part of it. just below the printed word "snubbie" there appears to be a line of writing which says, " ammo," if that is "a-m-m-o"--the second "m" is somewhat indistinct. and then there is parenthesis, box of , close parenthesis, dollar mark, . . then just below that there is a line of writing, the first word of which i cannot make out, that is, i cannot make any intelligible word of it, but the second word appears to be "holster." in other words, the word "holster" would lie just above the words "total price" and then there follows some figures which appear to be " . ." representative ford. is it your judgment on this exhibit that at the point where the applicant is required to give his age that it is " " or " "? mr. cole. i would read that as " ." mr. eisenberg. can you make out the date which is next to that age, mr. cole? mr. cole. well, i read the first part of the date as / , and i am unable to read the last figure, which is through a part of the very heavy dotted line. mr. eisenberg. do there seem to be one or two figures? mr. cole. it looks like a single figure there following a diagonal. (discussion off the record.) representative ford. back on the record. mr. eisenberg. mr. cole, i now hand you an item consisting of part of an application for a post office box, dated "box opened october , ," and also dated in the lower right "october , ," with the signature "lee h. oswald" and i ask you whether you have examined that item? mr. cole. yes, sir; i have. mr. eisenberg. may i have that admitted as , mr. chairman? representative ford. it may be admitted. (commission exhibit no. was marked and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. have you compared it with the standards in this case, mr. cole? mr. cole. i have. mr. eisenberg. what is your conclusion? mr. cole. it is my conclusion that the handprinted name "lee h. oswald," the address " fairmore ave.," and the signature "lee h. oswald" on this document are in the hand of the person who executed the standard writing. mr. eisenberg. have you prepared a photograph of ? mr. cole. yes, sir; i have. mr. eisenberg. can you produce that? thank you. is this photograph which you have handed me an accurate reproduction prepared by you or under your supervision? mr. cole. yes, sir; it is. mr. eisenberg. may i have this admitted as ? representative ford. it may be admitted. (commission exhibit no. was marked and received in evidence.) representative ford. continue. mr. eisenberg. before we go any further, what is your conclusion concerning the words "dallas, texas" appearing after "fairmore ave."? mr. cole. it is my conclusion that that wording is not in the writing of the author of the standard writing. mr. eisenberg. and that in " "? mr. cole. that is not in the handwriting of the author of the standards. mr. eisenberg. do you have any idea who inserted that? mr. cole. no, sir; i don't but i think in the handling of this kind of material it happens from time to time that a postal clerk may complete a document. mr. eisenberg. now, with reference to and a, b, and c, could you explain the reasons for concluding that is in the handwriting of the author of the standards as to those portions which you have designated as being in the handwriting of the author of the standards? mr. cole. in the printed name at the upper left of the photograph the capital "l" of "lee" shows a compound curve across the base, which has previously been mentioned as a handwriting habit found in the standards, one example being on chart b, item , another example on chart c, item . the name "oswald" shows the use of capital forms except for the letters "ld." this particular use of a mixture of capitals and lower-case forms is found on chart c, item , at the top line where the final forms "l" and "d" are lower case forms. i will mention also the particular writing movement used for constructing the letter "d," referring to the photograph . there is first a moderately long downstroke, and then without lifting the pen there is a rising movement which at the same time moves towards the left to complete the body of the letter. this method of construction is also observed in the standards, chart c, item , top line, in the "d" of "oswald." since there is a slightly more open effect at the base in this standard "d," the method of construction can be seen clearly, but it was made in the same way in the photograph, as shown by the photograph . in the word "fairmore," it is observed that on the photograph there is a tendency to reduce the size of the small letter "i" and, of course, this is again an example of the use of the lower case form in combination with the capitals. the size relationship and the particular mixture of this form with capitals is shown in the standard writing chart c, item , in the word "deportations" and in the word "diet," also in item in the word "curtailment." the word "fairmore" also shows the use of a lower case "e" in combination with capital letters, which has been observed frequently in several parts of the standard writing, one example not mentioned heretofore is item of chart c in the word "discharge." the signature "lee h. oswald" along the lower line shown by the photograph compares favorably in all details with the signatures in the name of "lee h. oswald" in several standard charts, being on chart a, item ; on chart b, again item ; also on chart b, item no. ; and on chart c, item , the next to the last line. now, one distinctive feature of this signature is the writing movement employed in the combination of letters capital "o" and the "s" following, where the "s" form is rather blurred or corrupted. it does not give a complete capital "s" form, but instead the upper part of the "s" is represented only by a line which is approximately horizontal, sinking downwards to the base of the "s," and then a looped form at the base. mr. eisenberg. you said a capital "s" form; did you mean that? mr. cole. no; i meant that it is not a complete "s" form. it is somewhat slurred or blurred with respect to a true "s" form. this particular method of slurring the form is clearly illustrated on chart b, item , in the name "oswald" and is also shown on chart b, item , in the name "oswald." (at this point senator cooper entered the hearing room.) mr. cole [continuing]. in the signature shown by the photograph , in the capital "l," we observe with regard to the base loop, this would be the lower half of the letter, we see a vertical aspect of that base loop. now, in a more conventional or, say, a copybook form of a letter "l" you would find the base loop with a horizontal aspect, that is, stretched out along the writing line. here we find a vertical aspect of that part, which is reproduced in the standard writing on chart a, item . that last reference was to the base loop of the capital "l" of the signature "lee h. oswald" as shown by the photograph as compared with chart a, item . now on the photograph , we observe that between the two upright strokes of the letter "h" there is a very thin diagonal line of joining. this is repeated in the standard writing, chart b, item , top line. now, again in this "h" as shown on we see this more or less vertical aspect of the treatment of a looped formation near the base of the right side of the letter "h," that is, instead of moving fully to the left to give a normal cross bar, there is only a base loop there which, i say, is made in a vertical direction. this is repeated in the standard writing, chart a, item , in the middle initial "h." the "w" of "oswald" shown by the photograph is characterized by a rather full rounding across the base of the letter, and this degree of roundness is shown in the standard writing, chart b, item . there is a horizontal stroke which constitutes the letter connection between "w" and "a" shown by the photograph , and this method of making a connection is repeated in the standards, chart b, item . mr. eisenberg. you say "w" and "a"? mr. cole. "w" and "a". the size relationship between the letter "l" and the letter "d" as shown by the photograph is the same as that found on chart a, item . the relationship of the body of the "d"--by which i mean that part which would ordinarily rest on the writing line, and in a conventional form would be more or less circular--and the upper extension is also similar as between the photograph and chart a, item . in other words, there is practically no roundness of the body. again, we have got an emphasis of the more or less vertical strokes for what should be a rounded portion for the body. this constitutes my reasons for believing that the questioned writing as shown by the photograph is in the hand of the person who executed the standard writing. mr. eisenberg. any further questions on this application? representative ford. no questions. mr. eisenberg. mr. cole. i now hand you an item consisting of a change-of-address card addressed to the "postmaster, dallas, texas," dated may , , relating to post office box in dallas, tex., setting forth a new address at magazine street, new orleans, and signed "lee h. oswald," and i ask you if you have examined that change-of-address card? mr. cole. yes, i have. mr. eisenberg. may this be admitted as , mr. chairman? representative ford. it may be admitted. (commission exhibit no. was marked and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. have you compared that change-of-address card, , with the standards in this case? mr. cole. yes, sir; i have. mr. eisenberg. what is your conclusion? mr. cole. it is my conclusion that the author of the writing on exhibit is the same person who executed the standard writings. mr. eisenberg. did you prepare a photograph of ? mr. cole. i did. mr. eisenberg. can you produce that? is this an accurate photograph, an accurate reproduction, of , prepared by you or under your supervision? mr. cole. yes, it is. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, may this be admitted as ? representative ford. it may be admitted. (commission exhibit no. was marked and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. by reference to the photograph and reference to your charts a, b, and c, could you discuss the reasons which led you to your conclusion concerning this change-of-address card? mr. cole. handwriting habits shown by this exhibit, and i am looking now at the photograph , have been mentioned heretofore. if it is agreeable, i will simply review these in a body before proceeding to the standard writing. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, is that agreeable? representative ford. you may proceed. mr. cole. on line , shown by the photograph , the use of a lower case "l" and "d" in combination with capital letters, the compound curve across the base of the "l" in "lee," the exaggerated length of the comma between the two names; below, in the word "box," the somewhat larger upper lobe of the capital "b"--excuse me, the somewhat smaller upper lobe of the capital "b" as contrasted with the larger lobe of that letter; in the "o" of "box" the connection or the closing of the "o" fairly high on the left side instead of towards the center or the right side, the same habit being also illustrated in the "o" in the combination "p.o."; the form of the " " with the rather prominent base loop; the exaggerated length of the cap of the figure " "; in the word "dallas," the compound curve across the base of the "l"s; the circumstance that the "a" begins with a down stroke which is almost exactly retraced; the circumstance that the word "texas" includes a lower case "e"; the use of the small letter "i" in combination with capital letters in the word "magazine"; and similar features to those just described in the word "new orleans." now, all of these things on the charts exhibit a, b, and c mr. eisenberg. i don't think you need to point to them in detail, since you have already pointed to those items. mr. cole. yes. i also find a substantial agreement in details of the signature, "lee h. oswald," as shown by the photograph , and signatures shown in the standard writing, with particular regard to the signature of chart c, item , next to the last line. this constitutes my reasons for believing that the writing on commission exhibit is in the hand of the person who made the standard writing. mr. eisenberg. mr. cole, there seems to be a double line in several of these letters on the reverse side of this change-of-address card, such as the "d" in "dallas," the "e" in "texas" and so forth. can you give any explanation for that? mr. cole. well, i think the double line is more evident in the address " magazine street, new orleans, la." mr. eisenberg. yes? mr. cole. and a possible reason is that the writer was dissatisfied with the width of the line as shown on the two lines above. while i regard it as having a fair legibility, the only explanation i can see is that for this particular document the writer wanted a heavier writing and, of course, one way to get it is to go over it again. a thing of this kind can also be related to a writer's knowledge of the functioning of a certain pen. if he knows that the pen he is using usually gives a heavier line, and for a particular writing he sees a thinner line, he may then make some modification in his handling of the pen and get the kind of line he wants. mr. eisenberg. is this similar to the retouching you mentioned earlier as being an evidence of forgery? mr. cole. i would say no, since it is done in such an apparently spontaneous and confident manner. there is not the slightest evidence that any effort was made to conceal the presence of this retracing. i think i should say that generally the person producing a false or spurious writing does retouching in order to correct some imperfection of a letter, that is, he criticizes his work as he goes along and if he encounters a part which he thinks is incorrect with respect to form, he may then retouch it in order to correct it. it would be very unusual in any false or spurious writing to see any extensive retracing. mr. eisenberg. any further questions on this card? representative ford. no further questions. mr. eisenberg. mr. cole, i now hand you an item which appears to be a selective service system notice of classification with the name "alek james hidell" printed and the same signature, and a photograph which appears to be the photograph of lee harvey oswald--and i state for the record that this item was obtained from the wallet of lee harvey oswald following his apprehension after the assassination and the murder of officer tippit--and i ask you whether you have examined that item? mr. cole. i have. mr. eisenberg. may that be admitted as , mr. chairman? representative ford. it may be admitted. (commission exhibit no. was marked and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. when did you first examine that item, mr. cole? mr. cole. may i refer to a note? mr. eisenberg. yes, certainly. mr. cole. i first saw that item on december , . mr. eisenberg. did you make an examination at that time? mr. cole. i did. mr. eisenberg. at whose request was that? mr. cole. at the request of the chief, u.s. secret service. mr. eisenberg. what was your conclusion at that time? mr. cole. it was my conclusion that that is not an original document but that it is in fact a photographic reproduction of some original document. mr. eisenberg. did you draw any conclusions as to how the reproduction might have been prepared? mr. cole. yes; it was my conclusion that a photograph was made of some original document, and that the resulting film negative was retouched for the purpose of blocking out certain parts, and by that i mean that the person processing a negative in this way would take an opaque compound and where you had clear areas of the negative, the negative, of course, showing clear areas where there was black on the original, that he would cover up this clear area of the negative so that in a resulting print nothing would come through. this would be a way of eliminating information which was actually on the original document. mr. eisenberg. such as the name of the person to whom the document had been issued? mr. cole. yes. mr. eisenberg. draft board and so forth? mr. cole. yes; then a print would be made of that retouched negative, and this, i believe, is such a print. mr. eisenberg. there is information on this item consisting of the name "alek james hidell," a selective service number, and so forth. could you draw any conclusion as to how this information had been put into the item if the card was prepared in this way? senator cooper. what information, do you mean the name? mr. eisenberg. yes; the name "alek james hidell," the selective service number, the date of mailing, the signature of the member or clerk of local board, color of eyes, and so forth, all of the information appearing in print or color on the card. mr. cole. that information was typed directly onto the photographic print which is exhibit---- mr. eisenberg. that is ? mr. cole. . mr. eisenberg. does this item consist of one or two photographic prints, mr. cole? mr. cole. there are two photographic prints, one for the front and one for the back, and they are pasted together. mr. eisenberg. is it on ordinary photographic paper? mr. cole. yes. mr. eisenberg. is there evidence that more than one typewriter had been used in inserting the signature---- mr. cole. yes. mr. eisenberg. excuse me, the name, and some of the other information which i have referred to? mr. cole. yes, at least two typewriters were used. this may be seen clearly by the record of the selective service number, which includes a fairly light typewriting and then a heavier typewriting. mr. eisenberg. have you produced a photograph of exhibit or have you taken a photograph rather? mr. cole. yes, i have. mr. eisenberg. would you produce that? mr. cole. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. thank you. was this photograph prepared by you or under your supervision? mr. cole. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. is it a true and accurate reproduction of ? mr. cole. it is. mr. eisenberg. may this be admitted as ? representative ford. it may be admitted. (commission exhibit no. was marked and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. this is the front of , is it, mr. cole? mr. cole. yes. mr. eisenberg. have you also taken a photograph of the rear, the reverse side? mr. cole. yes, sir; i have. mr. eisenberg. this was prepared by you or under your supervision? mr. cole. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. is it a true and accurate photograph? mr. cole. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. may this be admitted as exhibit ? representative ford. it may be admitted. (commission exhibit no. was marked and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. do you have extra copies of that? mr. cole. i am sorry; i do not. mr. eisenberg. could you hold these photographs so that the commission can see them, and illustrate your point concerning the use of more than one typewriter? mr. cole. the selective service number shows typewriting which has a fairly light deposit of ink from the ribbon. it also shows typewriting with a somewhat heavier deposit. now, there is a clear difference in the design of the figure " " which shows that two different typewriters were used. mr. eisenberg. can you think of any reason why that might have been done, why two different typewriters were used? mr. cole. well, here again the typewriter shown by the typewriter impression has a rather poor legibility and it is my theory that a person producing typing of such limited legibility might well move the job over to another typewriter having a more heavily inked ribbon. i might say also that it is quite difficult to type on this glossy photographic paper. the ink won't come down from the ribbon nearly as well on such a surface as it does on ordinary bond paper. mr. eisenberg. now, you have also reproduced the back, the reverse side, of in your photograph . is the typewriting on the back, illustrated in , that contained in the light-impression typewriter shown on the front, or the heavy-impression typewriter? mr. cole. the lighter impression. mr. eisenberg. you can tell that how, mr. cole? mr. cole. well, it is illustrated, first of all, by the extremely small deposit of ink, and second by the circumstance that we can see the same design of figure " " in a part of the address between this frame, which is the design of the figure " " of the lighter typewriting on the face of the document. senator cooper. could i ask you, is it correct that the typewriter which you say was used, which gave a light impression, the " " is closed at the apex? mr. cole. that is correct. senator cooper. and the heavier typewriter which was used which produced the " ," the " " is open at the apex? mr. cole. yes. mr. eisenberg. carrying that question forward, the reverse side shows the " " closed at the apex, does it not? mr. cole. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. there seems to be some erasure under the name "alek james hidell" which is typewritten in the front side, as well as a faint letter or two. did you draw any conclusions as to that material? mr. cole. well, in this area there is also in addition to typewriting already mentioned, there is evidence of a rather sharp indentation of typewritten material, which could result from the blow of a typewriter key against this paper without the interposition of any ribbon at all. most typewriters have an adjustment called "stencil" whereby you can prevent the ribbon from coming up in front of the type bar, and there is a complete line of indentations along there which reads "alek james hidell," and one very interesting feature is that just to the left of the indented name "alek" there is a capital letter "o." i don't say at that particular point there was any completion of a name following the letter "o" but we do have this clear indentation of the letter "o." mr. eisenberg. have you prepared a photograph which brings out those details a little more clearly than in the original, ? mr. cole. yes, sir; i have. this photograph was made by a very low angle of illumination, a raking light across the document which shows up the indentations. mr. eisenberg. this was prepared by you and under your supervision? mr. cole. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. it is a true and accurate reproduction of ? mr. cole. it is. mr. eisenberg. may this be admitted as ? representative ford. it may be admitted. (commission exhibit was marked and received in evidence.) senator cooper. could i ask a question? you referred to an indentation representing the letter "o." could you point that out and indicate the exhibit upon which you identified the letter "o"? mr. cole. here. i point to an area approximately two typewriter spaces on the left of the visible letter "a" of "alek." senator cooper. on commission exhibit ? mr. cole. yes; correct. senator cooper. were you able to determine whether that indentation representing "o" was made by a typewriter or does it represent a letter which was still visible from the original card of selective service classification? mr. cole. that is a typewritten letter "o," sir. i think that nothing is visible on that line from the original. mr. eisenberg. referring to your photograph, , there seems to be--the word "james" seems to be printed more than once, as does the name "hidell," in stencil. is that your observation, mr. cole, also? mr. cole. yes; that is true. mr. eisenberg. is there any other material that was printed in stencil, on the stencil setting, of the typewriter? mr. cole. yes; there is a writing of the serial number which is also in stencil form. mr. eisenberg. anything else? we are referring now just to the front of the card. mr. cole. yes. the date of mailing also shows an indentation. mr. eisenberg. can you think of any reason why the use of the typewriter on stencil may have been done? mr. cole. i can mention reasons that i have observed on other documents which might apply to this one, and that would be an effort on the part of the operator of the machine to find a correct place for beginning typewriting, but i am obliged to say that on those other examples i have never seen such extensive stenciled writing. i would say that a single letter should give a person a pretty good idea of the position for beginning writing, and it should not be necessary to write out this material in full. now another theory for applying indentations to this type of material might be, say, previous experience with trying to write on a glossy surface, and knowing that you don't get enough ink from a ribbon on such a surface and possibly an intention to apply a rather sharp indentation and later fill that in with pigment. i am a little doubtful if it would be successful but one might attempt to try it, because various kinds of printing are made in that way, first by producing an indent, and then working a pigment down into the indentation. i would say on this particular document, i don't see there was any evidence that the preparer of the document went through with any such plan. representative ford. for the record, i do have to leave to attend the house session, and senator cooper, will you preside as chairman? senator cooper. yes; i will be glad to do so. (at this point representative ford departed the hearing room.) mr. eisenberg. referring to your photograph again, the word "james" in "alek james hidell" seems to have been printed twice, as you stated before, and the second time it seems to have started--at least twice--and the second time it seems to start after the first "james" has stopped. is that your observation? mr. cole. yes. mr. eisenberg. referring back to your theories or the possible theories you mentioned as explanations of the printing by stencil, would the placement of the two "james" on the upper line indicate whether or not either of those theories might be applicable? mr. cole. well, of course, the repetition of these names is somewhat opposed to the theory that a person might prefer to ink it in later. but, of course, it is possible that he could not see it very well, and that he might think he could make a selection of either one or the other for inking in. mr. eisenberg. does the word "james" appear to have been stenciled more than twice? mr. gore. well, there is some overlapping or superimposition of indentations in the first record of the indented name "james." it could have been as many as three times in the stencil operation. mr. eisenberg. now, mr. cole, have you produced a photograph of the reverse side of the selective-service card---- mr. cole. i have. mr. eisenberg. that is, ? mr. cole. i have. mr. eisenberg. and was this taken by you or under your supervision? mr. cole. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. and is it a true and accurate photograph of ? mr. cole. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, may this be admitted as ? senator cooper. it will be admitted. (the document referred to, previously marked as commission exhibit , was received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. this is an additional photograph of the reverse side of ? mr. cole. that is correct. the one last mentioned was also made with a very low angle of illumination raking the light across the document. mr. eisenberg. the "one last mentioned" being or ? mr. cole. was made with the low-angle illumination to bring out the indentation. mr. eisenberg. that is as opposed to , which is the reverse side of the photograph introduced as ? mr. cole. yes. mr. eisenberg. and that had a normal illumination? ir cole. yes., correct. mr. eisenberg. by use of this photograph, could you read to us what was stenciled, insofar as possible? mr. cole. opposite "color of eyes" there is discernible the indented typewritten letters "ct." this is just to the left of the visible letters "gr." then opposite the "color of hair" there is an indentation of the word in capital letters "brown." just above the visible " " for the inch figures of height, there is a second indented " ." opposite the word 'weight" there is a small letter "i" as an indentation. mr. eisenberg. is "i" the lower case of the figure in the typewriter which produces " " in upper case? mr. cole. no; it is the lower case "l" which is used for the " " on most typewriters. in the frame above the wording "local board stamp" there is visible typewriting and indentations but i think this is probably all one typewriting act, the ink coming down from the ribbon only in a rather irregular fashion. just outside the frame on the right side there is an indentation of the abbreviation "st." mr. eisenberg. mr. cole, did you have occasion to examine these cards at a subsequent time--this card, i am sorry, the selective service notice of classification, or spurious selective service classification, ? mr. cole. yes, sir; i did. mr. eisenberg. at that time did you examine the negatives which i now hand to you? mr. cole. i did. mr. eisenberg. for the record, these are a set of negatives which were found at one of the premises inhabited by lee harvey oswald. mr. chairman, may i have them admitted as ? i would like these negatives which mr. cole examined and which were found in one of the residences of lee harvey oswald to be received as . senator cooper. it is so ordered. (the negatives referred to were marked as commission exhibit and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. did you also examine this card which i now hand you, which for the record is a selective service system notice of classification in the name of lee harvey oswald, found in the wallet of lee harvey oswald following his apprehension after the assassination and the murder of officer tippit? mr. cole. i did examine this card. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, may this card, which is oswald's actual selective service system notice of classification, be admitted as ? senator cooper. so ordered. (the document referred to was marked as commission exhibit , and was received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. now what did your examination of the negatives and the card show, in relation to your earlier examination, conducted simply of the exhibit ? mr. cole. may i say something off the record. (discussion off the record.) senator cooper. back on the record. would you please state on the record your reasons for making your prior answer to the question of counsel? mr. cole. i have some question whether this is actually the card which i had previously examined, although i am sure i did examine a selective service card, and it will take just a moment of close examination of this one to determine that, and i would suggest that if there are any other selective service cards available belonging to this group or grouped with this card that i should see them at the same time. senator cooper. your statement is then that you just desired to examine---- mr. cole. yes, sir. senator cooper. this card and any other selective service card that may be available? mr. cole. yes, sir. senator cooper. i suggest that the commission recess for a sufficient time to permit the witness to examine the selective service card. mr. eisenberg. before that recess, let me introduce another card relating to the selective service system, which is the registration certificate of lee harvey oswald. did you examine--did you examine this registration certificate, mr. cole? and perhaps you can now, mr. reporter, note a recess while he examines both the registration certificate and the selective service system notice of classification. senator cooper. so ordered. (short recess.) mr. cole. yes, sir; i did examine this registration certificate. mr. eisenberg. did you examine the selective service system notice of classification? mr. cole. yes, sir; i did. i did examine the notice of classification. mr. eisenberg. that is . may i have the registration certificate admitted as ? senator cooper. let it be admitted. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit , and was received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. this was also found in the wallet of oswald following his apprehension. now, on the basis of your examination of these cards and the negatives, did you find yourself reinforced in your earlier conclusion, mr. cole? mr. cole. i did. this confirmed my earlier conclusion which was formed at a time i had only the photographic prints. exhibit---- mr. eisenberg. no. , together with photographs thereof, is that what you are referring to now? mr. cole. that is correct; yes. mr. eisenberg. can you discuss the negatives, exhibit , that you referred to in your examination? mr. cole. yes; there are two negatives which are of selective service system notice of classification. both of these negatives show extensive retouching, sometimes called opaquing, for the purpose of preventing certain material which appeared on an original from printing on a photographic print. the two negatives are apparently related to a single original. one of them has a somewhat greater amount of retouching than the other. it is my view that the second negative, that is, the one showing the smallest amount of retouching, was probably made from a photographic print of the first one. in other words, the retouching operation has involved two steps which resulted in the production of two separate negatives. a possible reason for the second step was that on the negative showing the most extensive retouching there is still some material remaining from the original document, namely the lower extensions of two letters "f" which pass through certain wording at the right side of the document, reading "local board," and another word reading "violation." now on the second negative of the pair a successful operation in touching out those particular parts was accomplished. mr. eisenberg. do you believe that the second negative was prepared from the first, or they were prepared separately from the selective service card itself? mr. cole. i believe that the second negative was prepared from a photographic print of the first one. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, for ease of discussion, i would like to take out the "first negative" from exhibit and give it a separate number, , if i may. is that all right, mr. chairman? senator cooper. yes. (the negative referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and was received in evidence.) mr. cole. the negative i hand you now is the one i referred to as the first negative, and the one having the most extensive retouching or opaquing. mr. eisenberg. that is the one with the portion of the signature appearing over the word "violation"? mr. cole. that is right. a portion which has not been retouched out of the negative. mr. eisenberg. and does that same portion appear in the original of oswald's card, ? mr. cole. it does. senator cooper. is that a part of the record? mr. eisenberg. yes, sir. now, there is a good deal of red material on the reverse side of this "first negative." that is the opaquing material, is it? mr. cole. correct. mr. eisenberg. i would like to make the "second negative" referred to , mr. chairman. senator cooper. very well. you want that made a part of the record? mr. eisenberg. yes, sir. senator cooper. let it be made a part of the record. (the negative referred to, marked commission exhibit , was received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. we are extracting that from for ease of discussion. now, mr. cole, i call your attention to the fact that the words appearing on the face of the original , the printed material beginning "the law requires you, subject to heavy penalty for violation, to carry this notice in addition to your registration certificate," and going on for two full paragraphs of small or ordinary roman lower and upper case, and ending in solid caps "for advice, see your government appeal agent," this language in the original spreads across the bottom of the card from left to right, starting slightly to the right of the dotted line running up and down the card and marked "registrant must sign here," and extending quite close to the right margin. does it appear in the same fashion, approximately, on the "first negative," which is exhibit ? mr. cole. yes; but, of course, this negative includes a section along the left side which is not shown on the original. mr. eisenberg. which is actually a blank section, is that correct? mr. cole. correct. mr. eisenberg. is the negative slightly enlarged, apart from that blank section? mr. cole. i think it is the same size. mr. eisenberg. i call your attention to the "second negative," which is exhibit , and this same language, "the law requires you," and so forth, until "for advice, see your government appeal agent" appears in a much smaller compass, that is to say it starts substantially to the right of the margin or the signature line and is separated from the signature line by another dotted line. mr. cole. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. and does that correspond to the forged card, ? mr. cole. it does. mr. eisenberg. has that created a space on the forged card which does not exist on the original? mr. cole. that is correct. mr. eisenberg. and is that the space into which the photograph has been inserted on the forged card? mr. cole. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. i call your attention to a small strip of negative which appears to bear this language, and i ask you whether you believe that this negative might have been used in the preparation of the forged card? mr. cole. yes, sir; i believe this negative was used for producing the forged card which is a photographic print. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, may that be made ? senator cooper. let be made a part of the record. (the negative referred to was marked and received in evidence as commission exhibit no. .) mr. eisenberg. in your opinion, can you account for the reduction in size of that printing, "the law requires you" and so forth? mr. cole. well, it would seem that it had to be reduced in size to accomplish the obvious purpose on the card, exhibit , of providing extra space for a photograph. mr. eisenberg. how would that be done? mr. cole. this can be done photographically. when a photographic camera is set up to take a picture of a document you have a considerable range for making either enlargements or reductions on the negative. mr. eisenberg. is this whole process one which requires a great deal of skill, and when i say "whole process" i refer to the re-creation of a new card by use of opaquing material and the reduction in size of a portion of the text on the original card? mr. cole. no; i wouldn't say that it requires a great skill. i would say an elementary knowledge of photography, especially the photographic techniques used in a printing plant, would be enough for such a purpose. senator cooper. on that point, would it require study to learn to make, to exercise these techniques, either from a textbook or information from someone else or by observation of the practice? mr. cole. i think observation and association with other people, or being in a place where such techniques were going along in the normal operation of a photographic laboratory or printing plant, would be enough. a person wouldn't have to consult a text. as a matter of fact, similar things are done for normal printing operations. senator cooper. that is the question i wanted to ask. would this type of technique in an average shop or plant be normal? mr. cole. oh, yes. senator cooper. would it require much practice on the part of an individual before such technique could be successfully accomplished? mr. cole. no; i would say a moderate amount of practice. senator cooper. how much, would you say? how many times would a person have to, if it is possible to say, practice this kind of a technique before he could do it reasonably well? mr. cole. on a trial-and-error basis. i would say that a half dozen attempts on a trial and error basis of going through such an operation, perhaps making an error, finding how to correct it, doing it again, achieving more success, would certainly be enough. senator cooper. you would say then, assuming that lee oswald made these changes, that he would have had to practice them several times before he could have successfully made the changes which were indicated by the exhibits that have been introduced? mr. cole. well, sir; i would say he would not necessarily have to practice on this particular document, but if he had some practice, he or any other person, had had some practice in normal operation, similar operations in a printing plant, then he could accomplish this result. senator cooper. would these changes have required the assistance at the time of another person---- mr. cole. i think not. senator cooper. or could they be accomplished by one person? mr. cole. one person could easily do it. senator cooper. thank you. mr. eisenberg. now on these questions which senator cooper has been asking, i ask you to refer back to exhibit , consisting of a group of other negatives not related to the selective-service card, and ask you whether those negatives bear any evidence of opaquing and similar techniques as were used in the creation of exhibit ? mr. cole. they do. all of them show evidence of opaquing, that is, touching out certain information, letting other information come through. mr. eisenberg. do you think this might have constituted sufficient practice to produce the result? mr. cole. yes; i think so. senator cooper. would it have been necessary for a person making these changes to have had for his use any kind of special equipment, or what kind of equipment would be required to make these changes? mr. cole. well, sir; in a printing plant there are usually what they call light tables, a table with a transparent surface with a light under it, which are used for making up, for assembling various materials to be included in a single plate. but that wouldn't be essential. a person could take a negative ready for retouching right to the window there, place it against the window and touch out material in that manner. senator cooper. my question really goes to this point: would it have been necessary for a person who made these changes to have done the work in a shop or printing plant or could it be done outside of a printing shop? mr. cole. it would not have to be done in a printing shop. it could be done easily in this room or any ordinary living accommodations. senator cooper. that is all. mr. eisenberg. would you need, mr. cole, in your belief, the type of equipment you are likely to find in a printing plant, or could this be done with home equipment? mr. cole. i would say it could be done with home equipment, but i think it is unlikely with respect to the actual preparation of the negative that one would get a successful result from home equipment. i believe that for the preparation of the negative, that is, apart from the retouching operation, that one would need a very accurate camera such as are found in photographic laboratories and printing plants. mr. eisenberg. could the opaquing have been done off the printing premises? mr. cole. yes; the opaquing could be done almost anywhere, in any ordinary living accommodation, needing only a source of light to pass through the negative, the liquid opaquing material, and a small brush. mr. eisenberg. mr. cole, if you were going to prepare a forged selective service system notice of classification, and if you did not have access to blanks of the selective service system itself, how would you go about preparing such a forgery? mr. cole. i would use a method similar to that already described here with one modification; namely, that in preparing the original negative, i would make an enlargement directly on the negative, then go through the opaquing operation, and in making the final print i would reduce it back to original size. that would produce a somewhat better quality of print, and it gives somewhat more freedom in the opaquing operation, that is, in working with a larger negative there is not as much danger of running the opaque into some material that you want to save, and we see on these negatives there are a few places where the person doing the opaquing has actually permitted this material to run into a part that should be saved on the original. mr. eisenberg. would you use the same type of photographic paper? mr. cole. i would not. i would use a dull-surfaced paper which would look more like an original document. mr. eisenberg. when you said that the person who produced the negatives let his opaque run into areas which he wanted to save, what areas are you referring to, what type of areas? mr. cole. well, areas where there is needed a sharp outline of a box which is to receive some printed information, and this, of course, is a very thin line, and it is very difficult to control this liquid on the negative. there are some places where it has run into the line and apparently it was necessary to make some strengthening or correction of that line later. mr. eisenberg. did you see evidence of correction of the line? mr. cole. yes; on commission exhibit the boxes for selective service number apparently have been strengthened somewhat. mr. eisenberg. now referring to commission exhibit , which is the actual card, do the numbers overlap or extend to the borders of the margin at all? mr. cole. there is one figure in particular which runs right along the line of the box. this is the first box on the left, and the figures are " " and the " " lies directly over the line on the right side of the box. mr. eisenberg. and does the " " in " " and the " " in " " overlap the boxes? mr. cole. they do. mr. eisenberg. would that practically necessitate a correction of the boxes? mr. cole. yes; it would, in order to repair the line. mr. eisenberg. mr. cole, i hand you an item entitled "certificate of service armed forces of the united states," reading "this is to certify that alek james hidell" and so forth, and "period of active duty"--on the reverse side now--"october , " to a date which is blurred, and i ask you whether you have examined this item? mr. cole. i have. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, may this be admitted as ? senator cooper. let the exhibit be admitted. (the document referred to was marked as commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. when did you first examine this item, mr. cole? mr. cole. that was also examined in december of , december , . mr. eisenberg. together with the selective service system notice of classification? mr. cole. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. and did you have any negatives at that time, or the original? mr. cole. i did not. mr. eisenberg. what was your conclusion at that time, based solely upon the examination of ? mr. cole. it was my conclusion that is actually a photographic print from a photographic negative. it is not an original document. mr. eisenberg. and on what did you base this conclusion? mr. cole. my familiarity with the appearance of photographic paper primarily. mr. eisenberg. did you prepare photographs at that time, mr. cole? mr. cole. i did. mr. eisenberg. could you produce those? these photographs are of the front and reverse, respectively, of commission exhibit ? mr. cole. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. and these were prepared by you or under your supervision? mr. cole. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. and they are accurate photographs of ? mr. cole. they are. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, may i have these admitted as and , respectively. senator cooper. the exhibits will be admitted to the record. (the photographs referred to were marked as commission exhibits nos. and , respectively, and were received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. will be the front and will be the reverse. mr. cole, could you attempt to decipher the typewriting on the reverse side as shown in the photograph ? mr. cole. the typewriting reads "october ," and on the second line there is some confusion of the typewriting, in other words, there is more than one typing operation on the line reading "to." one of these typing operations reads "october , ." one of the other typing operations on the line for "to," as determined by a previous examination under the microscope, shows an indent of " october ." mr. eisenberg. do you believe that was--yes, go ahead. mr. cole. also on the line reading "from" there is an indentation of another typewriter operation which reads " october ." mr. eisenberg. do you believe those indentations were caused by a typewriter set at stencil? mr. cole. yes; without the interposition of a ribbon between the type bar and the paper. mr. eisenberg. did you take photographs with side light, as you had in the case of the selective service card, to attempt to bring out these stencil marks? mr. cole. i did. mr. eisenberg. could you produce those photographs? you are handing me a photograph of the front side of the certificate of service, and is this a photograph which you took? mr. cole. it is. mr. eisenberg. an accurate reproduction of the exhibit ? mr. cole. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. may i have this admitted as , mr. chairman? senator cooper. let this exhibit be made a part of the record. (the photograph referred to previously marked as commission exhibit no. , was received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. you have also given me a photograph of the reverse side of ? mr. cole. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. this was taken by you or under your supervision? mr. cole. yes. mr. eisenberg. and is it an accurate photograph of the reverse of ? mr. cole. it is. mr. eisenberg. may the photograph of the reverse be admitted as exhibit ? senator cooper. exhibit will be admitted as part of the record. mr. eisenberg. could you show us what you found in the way of indentations caused by stencils, by referring to these exhibits and ? mr. cole. shows the face of the exhibit and in addition to the clearly visible typewriting of the name "alek james hidell," there is a repetition of this name somewhat below the visible typewriting in the form of typewritten indentations. mr. eisenberg. is this similar to the typewritten indentations found in the selective service card, ? mr. cole. yes; they are. mr. eisenberg. do you believe that the name "alek james hidell" was stenciled once or more than once? mr. cole. more than once, at least twice, i would say. mr. eisenberg. what is the relative position of the two stenciling operations? mr. cole. they were somewhat below, about one-half to three-quarters of the height of a typewritten character below, the visible typewriting. mr. eisenberg. what is the relationship to each other? mr. cole. they are offset about one-quarter to one-half the height of a typewritten character. mr. eisenberg. from each other? mr. cole. that is right, vertically. mr. eisenberg. is it accurate to say then that there is a progression upward as comparing the typewritten name and the two stenciled operations, or at least that the three are set in step, so that each one is below the next impression? mr. cole. that is correct, with the visible typewriting having the better position relative to the reproduction of the printed matter. mr. eisenberg. can you think of the reason why this might have been, why this operation might have been performed in this manner, mr. cole? mr. cole. yes. it could easily result from some difficulty of finding the correct place for typewriting the name on the card. the lowermost indentation would have been an incorrect position since it was run into a part of the reproduction of the printed matter. mr. eisenberg. now, i refer back to , which is a highlight photograph of the selective service card, and ask you whether the stenciled material in appears above the line on which the typewritten material--first name, middle name, and last name--should appear? mr. cole. yes; somewhat above. mr. eisenberg. in light of that, do you think it is possible that the individual who prepared this card used the stencil to determine at what point the typewriting would be placed so that it was in the correct position in relationship to the line above which it belonged? mr. cole. that is a definite possibility and, of course, he might also have been concerned about the position for the reproduced printed matter--"first name," "middle name," "last name." mr. eisenberg. bringing your attention back once more to , the selective service system card, was the reverse side of that card prepared in your opinion from commission , which is the reverse side of the registration certificate? i also call your attention to for comparision, that is, the original of the selective service card. mr. cole. yes, sir. the reverse of the photographic identification card, commission exhibit , could be a photographic reproduction of the reverse of commission exhibit , with the performance of certain opaquing operations. mr. eisenberg. looking at the reverse side of the two cards, and , does the reverse side of the card have any information for identifying characteristics of the individual bearing the card? mr. cole. it does not. mr. eisenberg. and what about the reverse side of ? mr. cole. the reverse side of provides space for a personal description, color of eyes, color of hair, complexion, height, and weight. mr. eisenberg. did you find among the negatives in a negative which might have been used or was used to prepare the reverse side of the selective service card, , the spurious card? mr. cole. yes; i did. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, may i have this negative classified separately as for purpose of ready identification? senator cooper. let it be so classified, and admitted as part of the record. (the document referred to, was marked as commission exhibit no. and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. did you find a negative which might have been used for the preparation of the certificate of service, that is ? mr. cole. yes; i did, for both face and back. mr. eisenberg. were these negatives in your opinion used as the negatives for that purpose? mr. cole. yes, sir. in my opinion, these are the very negatives that were used for producing the photographic print representing a certificate of service. mr. eisenberg. may these be subclassified as or separately classified as , mr. chairman, and introduced as ? senator cooper. let the document be designated as and admitted as part of the record. (the item referred to, was marked as commission exhibit no. and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. did you reach the same conclusion, by the way, as to the negative , that is, that it was definitely the negative used to produce the reverse side of ? mr. cole. i did. this is the very negative to produce the reverse side of . mr. eisenberg. returning to , there are two signatures which appear in in ink, is that correct? mr. cole. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. that is, the signature over the caption "member or clerk of local board," and the signature over the caption "registrant must sign here"? mr. cole. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. the second signature reads "alek j. hidell"? mr. cole. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. could you read the first signature? mr. cole. the first signature appears to be the name "goodhoffer," but that is partly an estimate. in other words, it is not possible to read this in a clear manner. that is a possible spelling of the name but not necessarily the only spelling. (at this point, there was a short recess, and mr. mccloy entered the hearing room.) senator cooper. i am now called to the senate. mr. john mccloy will act as chairman. (at this point senator cooper departed the hearing room and there was a further recess.) mr. eisenberg. how does that compare with the signature on the original card, exhibit ? mr. cole. it is not the same name and, of course, not in the same handwriting. mr. eisenberg. now, did you compare the two signatures on exhibit with the standards in this case to determine whether the signatures have been written by the person who produced the standards? mr. cole. i did compare the signatures on with the standard writing. mr. eisenberg. what was your conclusion, mr. cole? mr. cole. with respect to the signature above "member or clerk of local board," i have not formed any conclusion about authorship. with regard to the writing "alek j. hidell," it is my opinion that the author of the standard writing is the author of that name. mr. eisenberg. and referring to the charts of the standards which you prepared, and referring to the photograph of , could you explain the reasons for this conclusion? mr. cole. would you want any copy of this? mr. eisenberg. yes; if you have a copy. mr. cole. the capital letter "a" of the name "alek" on is reproduced in the standard writing on chart b, item , in the general conformation of the several lower case "a's" in that area. i refer to it as a capital "a" because it begins the name, but actually with respect to size and formation it is closely similar to the lower case "a's" of item . now the similarity is largely in the method that the staff is made, the way it pulls away from the oral body of the letter with only a moderate rate of retracing along the right side. that detail, as i say, is found both in the "a" on , and in the several "a's" of item . there are three in a row there, each beginning a line of writing. the letter "k" of the name "alek" compares favorably with the "k's" of the standard writing, chart a, items and . with regard to the middle initial "j" there is not a cursive "j" that is, as distinguished from a printed "j"--shown on the charts of standard writing. but the movement required for producing a "j" is similar to that required for producing the capital letter "i," and we observe a similarity as to movement with respect to the "j" of as compared with the "i" of chart b, item . one characteristic of the capital letter "h" of "hidell" on is the method of making that formation which stands for the crossbar. now this is the closed part along the lower half of the right side of the letter, which would represent the crossbar of the letter. this is the general movement used in a number of the signatures of lee h. oswald. one good example is that on chart b, item , the middle initial "h". another feature of that "h" is the connection to the following letter by an approximately horizontal stroke passing from the finish of the crossbar of the "h" across to the "i," and we observe a similar method of connection, although not with the same letter, on chart a, items and , where the "o" is connected by a straight line, almost horizontal projection of the crossbar, from the "h" to the "o". the letter "i" again shows a feature, which has previously been mentioned in the standard writing, of an increase of forehand slant, that is a slant to the right with respect to that letter as compared to other letters. this feature is shown in a number of places in the standard writing, one good example being on chart b, item , the second "i"--which is there because of a misspelling of the word "washington" that is spelled, the last few letters, "tion"--and there we observe that rather extreme increase of the forehand slant of the letter "i". the letter "d" of "hidell" compares favorably with the "d's" of the standard writing on chart a, item , in the word "discharge," and on the same chart, item in the word "regards." the final "l's" show a perceptible increase of pressure on the downstrokes, which is also found in the standard writing, chart b, item , top line, the word "enroll." this shows a somewhat more extreme increase in pressure on downstroke, but i regard it basically as the same habit. this particular part also shows a very abrupt terminal stroke for the letter "l" as between and compared with the final or last stroke of the "l" on chart b in the last stroke in the word "enrolled." these constitute my reasons for believing that the author of the standard writing is the author of the signature "alek j. hidell" on exhibit . mr. eisenberg. now concerning the other signature, mr. cole, are you unable to or--can you state why you are unable to arrive at a conclusion? mr. cole. well, partly because of the limited writing we have for comparison. the last part of the name is practically illegible, and the letters are so confused that i believe they do not accurately record writing habit. i would regard it as being a rather unnatural writing. now there is fair legibility in the letters of the first name, and they do have a moderate rate or amount of similarity to the standard writing, but since it is only a few letters, i think there is not a basis for a conclusion. mr. eisenberg. is the signature inconsistent with the writing of the standards? mr. cole. no; i wouldn't say there was any--there is certainly no basis for eliminating the author of the standards as being the author of that signature. mr. eisenberg. does there appear to be any attempt at disguise in this signature? mr. cole. well, i wouldn't regard it. if there is such an attempt, it is not, it seems to me, not a matter of deliberation or trying hard at it, but only a matter of being extremely careless in the last part of that signature. mr. eisenberg. is illegibility sometimes used as a method of disguise? mr. cole. yes, sir; it is. mr. mccloy. may i ask some questions about this? mr. cole. yes. mr. mccloy. if that word is "good," that first word on the exhibit , is it---- mr. eisenberg. , and the photograph is . mr. mccloy. . if that letter "g" is compared with the capital letter "g" on the standard chart b- , "glenview," would you say there is any similarity between the two? mr. cole. yes; there is, with respect to the size of the upper loop which is on the left side of the letter, and the approximate horizontal motion in passing from that loop over to the right side of the letter. mr. mccloy. we have it again in of that same chart? mr. cole. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. the "j" which seems to follow the word "good," however, does not seem to comport with the "j" on the signature "alek j. hidell" does it? mr. cole. no; but, of course, you are getting there to the area where the rather serious corruption or illegibility of forms begins. i think one could say that from the fair legibility of the first name, and the very poor legibility of the last name, that this is a deliberate effort. in other words, you have got a demonstration of the ability of the writer to produce a legible writing and, therefore, to devolve into this very illegible effort could be intentional. mr. mccloy. i noticed when you compared the "j" in "alek j. hidell" with the standard "i," such as the one on chart b- , there was a definite similarity, but i notice on chart a, no. , there is an "i," a capital "i" presumably, which apparently doesn't have the same conformation as the "j" in the commission exhibit . would you agree with that? mr. cole. yes; that is true, but i think in studying these forms we ought to consider all available "i's," and there would be some others, such as the one on b- and one in b- . it shows a fair range of variation, especially with regard to finishing the lower part of that letter. now, i would judge the one on b- to be definitely a part of his writing habit, because it gives the impression of having been made with a considerable amount of freedom. generally, a larger form is made more freely, more naturally, than a smaller form. mr. mccloy. i see. mr. cole. and you see you have got sort of a cramped effect across the base of the "i" in a- . mr. mccloy. what i am getting at is, you don't suggest that all these "i's" and all these "j's" exactly conform, but you are talking in terms of similarities that turn up in certain of them that you believe are significant? mr. cole. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. mr. cole, i now hand you an item consisting of a yellowish card entitled "international certificates of vaccination as approved by the world health organization," and so forth, phs form , and reading in part, "this is to certify that lee oswald, whose signature follows" and with the signature, "lee h. oswald," date of birth and so forth, "has on the date indicated been vaccinated or revaccinated against smallpox," with a date appearing in a rubber-stamp printing, what appears to be rubber-stamp printing, "june , ," and a rubber-stamp signature of "dr. a. j. hideel, p.o. box , new orleans, la.," with some type of stamp on the right side next to the name, and a signature "a. j. hidell" over the name; and i ask you whether you have examined this item? mr. cole. i have. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, may this be admitted as commission exhibit ? mr. mccloy. it may be admitted. (the document referred to was marked as commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. now, i also will show you commission exhibit , which consists of a warrior rubber stamping kit which has already been introduced in evidence in connection with testimony of marina oswald, and which was found at one of oswald's residences, and ask you whether you have examined this commission exhibit ? mr. cole. yes, sir; i have. mr. eisenberg. did you attempt to determine whether the signatures "lee h. oswald" and "a. j. hideel" on commission exhibit were prepared by the author of the standards? mr. cole. yes, sir; i did. mr. eisenberg. what was your conclusion? mr. cole. it is my conclusion that the author of the standard writing is the author of the writing you just described. mr. eisenberg. did you attempt to determine whether the apparent rubber-stamp printing had been produced by use of the warrior kit, exhibit ? mr. cole. i did. mr. eisenberg. what was your conclusion? mr. cole. it is my conclusion that the kit could have been used for producing the rubber-stamp printing on--exhibit is it? mr. eisenberg. yes. did you prepare a photograph of , mr. cole? mr. cole. yes; i did. mr. eisenberg. will you produce that photograph? you have produced two photographs, one of which shows the outside or exterior portion of , and the other one shows the interior portion? mr. cole. correct; yes. mr. eisenberg. did you take each of these photographs? mr. cole. i did. mr. eisenberg. and are they accurate reproductions of the exhibit ? mr. cole. they are. mr. eisenberg. approximately what enlargements are these, by the way? mr. cole. about - / diameters. mr. eisenberg. these are what size photographs? mr. cole. eight by ten. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, may these two photographs be admitted as and ? mr. mccloy. they may be. (the photographs referred to were marked as commission exhibits nos. and , and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. will be exterior part of , and will be the interior. now, the exterior portion of also shows some handprinting "lee h. oswald" which came out in this photograph--in --a little clearer. did you identify that handwriting, mr. cole---- mr. cole. i did. mr. eisenberg. as being--what was your conclusion? mr. cole. it is my conclusion that that handprinting is in the hand of the person who made the standard specimens. mr. eisenberg. now by reference to those photographs, and , and by reference to your charts of the standards, could you explain the reasons for your conclusion on the handwriting and handprinting? mr. cole. with respect to the signature, "lee h. oswald," as shown by the photograph , this compares favorably with other sample signatures that i have examined, some of which are shown on the charts, namely chart a, item ; chart b, item ; and chart c, item , second line from the bottom. there is, i think, a closer comparison with certain other standard signatures of "lee h. oswald" which i have examined, as appearing on the reverse of certain checks. mr. eisenberg. and those are in evidence, are they, as one of the standards, mr. cole? mr. cole. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. that was described in the record when you introduced it? mr. cole. yes; the signatures as endorsements on these several checks show what might be described as an exaggerated freedom and carelessness in the execution of this signature. mr. eisenberg. excuse me, was that , that exhibit consisting of the checks? mr. cole. yes, sir; the signatures and endorsements of the checks in exhibit show some variation with respect to the care and formation of letters. there are a few endorsements in that group which show a greatly exaggerated freedom or a carelessness in execution. these signatures appear on, especially on, check numbers and of this exhibit, and they compare quite favorably in detail with the signature shown by the photograph, commission exhibit . now with regard to the writing of the name "a. j. hideel" we observed in the combination of letters "hi" that that letter is joined by means of a projection of a crossbar into the letter "i"; that in the letter "e," which is separated from the preceding "d," there is a very high placement of the loop, that is, instead of beginning at the writing line, the loop of the letter begins about halfway up on the staff, and this is a form that is very familiar in the standard writing, particularly in the handprinted forms. for example, on chart c, item , the final "e" in the word "discharge" shows a similar effect. also on chart c, item , the second line, in the name "mercedes" we have got two "e's" that show a similar effect. the final "l" shows this perceptible increase of pressure on the downstroke, and a very abrupt terminal stroke also, which had been previously mentioned as being a characteristic of chart b, item , in the word "enroll." now with regard to the handprinting as shown by commission photograph exhibit , and considering particularly the name "oswald," we have a detailed agreement in every feature of letter forms there, and i will direct attention especially to the use of the lowercase "l" and "d" as associated with the capital or uppercase forms of the other four letters of the name, and i will also mention the method of forming the "d," considering first one of the standards where it can be seen more clearly. on chart c, item , the first line, final "d" of "oswald" shows first a fairly long downstroke, then a stroke rising from the end of that downstroke moving upwards and to the left to form the body of the letter, and this method of formation is also used in the "d" of "oswald" as shown by the photograph exhibit . on the next line below there is faintly visible the name "orleans" and i will direct attention to the base of the "l," which shows a rather deep compound curve. that is, here again, instead of having a simple horizontal line to represent the base of that printed letter, there is a fairly deep curve which is found in the standard writing in several places, one example being chart c, item . this word also illustrates the tendency to mix lowercase forms with capitals in the case of the use of the lowercase "e" in "orleans," and that, of course, is repeated many places in the standard writing, a good place being chart c, item , the word "mercedes." these are the reasons for my belief that the author of the standard writing is the author of the handwriting on---- mr. eisenberg. ? mr. cole. . mr. eisenberg. now, the handwriting and handprinting on is all extremely dim. do you have any explanation for that? mr. cole. there is evidence that this document has been treated with chemicals, probably for the purpose of developing for fingerprints. such chemicals are ordinarily included in solvents which dissolve ink, and some bleach out ink. i think that is the reason for the poor legibility of this ink writing. at one time, i think, it probably had a pretty good legibility. mr. eisenberg. was this the condition of the item when you examined it? mr. cole. yes; it was. mr. eisenberg. now, you stated that the apparent rubber-stamp printing could have been produced by the warrior rubber kit, . first let me ask you, is this actually rubber-stamp printing? mr. cole. yes; i believe it is. mr. eisenberg. that is, the printing on the vaccination certificate. when you say it could have been produced by the print in exhibit , could you elaborate as to your findings on that point? mr. cole. yes; in considering that question, i made an impression from the stamp, from the type setup in a stamp which is a part of this kit at the present time. now the typing as set up reads "l. h. oswald, magazine st., new orleans, la.," and, of course, that text repeats some of the letters, a good many of the letters, which are in the rubber-stamp impression "doctor a. j. hideel, p.o. box , new orleans, la.," and i made a careful comparison of these letters as taken from the stamped impression with what is shown on , and i found that they agree perfectly as to measurements of the type faces, and they agree as to the design of letters. therefore, i would say that the rubber-stamp type faces from this particular kit could have been used to produce that rubber-stamp impression on . mr. eisenberg. could you produce the two cards which you used to record the impression of the rubber-stamp kit? mr. cole. yes, sir; the second card is an impression from the date stamp which is a part of this kit, and that too agrees along the same lines with respect to measurements of the letters and the designs of the letters. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, may these two cards be admitted as commission exhibit ? mr. mccloy. they may be admitted. (the cards referred to were marked as commission exhibit no. and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. are there microscopic characteristics on rubber-stamp printing sufficient to make positive identifications? mr. cole. i don't regard any to be present in this particular stamp. but while the type faces could not be regarded as perfect, i don't know of any way to determine whether the imperfections belong only to this kit or whether they would be true of all warrior rubber-stamp kits. mr. eisenberg. did you notice any imperfections? mr. cole. well, i did not actually catalog any imperfections, but in looking at the type i had the general impression that it is not a perfect impression, certainly not as perfect as you would get from metal type in a regular printing operation. mr. eisenberg. now, you stamped an impression other than the one contained on the card . could you explain the reasons for that? mr. cole. i stamped the material which was already set up in type. since it repeated a good deal of the material, enough for examination, i did not want on my own volition to tear down the stamps that were in this in order to set up other type. mr. eisenberg. did you examine the stamp impression appearing on the right-hand side of the interior of the document ? mr. cole. i did. mr. eisenberg. did you come to any conclusion as to that stamp? mr. cole. yes; this stamp includes wording which reads in reverse, and there is a double stamping of the wording, and the text is "brush in can" the three words, "brush in can." the word "brush" extends in approximately a semicircle across the upper part of the stamp and the words "in can" in a semicircle across the lower part. mr. eisenberg. can you think of any explanation of why those words should appear? mr. cole. yes; a possible explanation is that the object used to make the stamped impression was the top of some container of a solvent or cleaning fluid with raised lettering, and that the top of this can was pressed against a stamped pad, and then pressed against this document. mr. eisenberg. what would the object be? mr. cole. well, i think it is very common to see rubber-stamped impressions on documents of this particular character. they are so commonplace, i think that it is probably a habit or custom among most people not to read them. they may be regarded as giving a document an official appearance. that may be the purpose of getting some sort of stamp onto the document. mr. eisenberg. why do the letters appear in reverse, mr. cole? mr. cole. well, they would naturally appear in reverse. if they read correctly in raised letters as the top of some container, if it was intended that they be read correctly there, then they would naturally be in reverse from the stamped impression. of course, you will observe that in this warrior stamping kit the material set up in the rubber stamp there is in reverse, which produces correct reading and writing from an impression. there is one more feature of this particular stamp i think ought to be mentioned. mr. eisenberg. yes, please. mr. cole. there is toward the center of that stamp a rectangle of a deposit of ink in a certain pattern, sort of a spotty mottled pattern of ink, and this corresponds to the pattern of the blank parts of the date stamp. mr. eisenberg. which date stamp is that? mr. cole. the warrior stamping kit includes a dating stamp, and on the adjustable bands are certain blank areas. now, the pattern on those blank areas is similar to the pattern which we have in this rectangle of the stamp just discussed. mr. mccloy. may i ask, this post office box , is that---- mr. eisenberg. yes; that corresponds---- mr. mccloy. does it correspond to the one he used in new orleans? mr. eisenberg. i am about to introduce an exhibit which shows post office box , that is, the last two figures reversed, and i imagine his spelling accounts for that. mr. cole, i now show you an item consisting of a part of an application for post office box in new orleans, dated june , , with a postmark, signed "l. h. oswald," and in the part of the box captioned "names of persons entitled to receive mail through box" and so forth, the words are written "a. j. hidell, marina oswald," and i ask you whether you have examined that item? mr. cole. i have. mr. eisenberg. may i have this item admitted, mr. chairman, as ? mr. mccloy. let it be admitted. (the item referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. did you compare this with the standards to determine who wrote the writing on that exhibit, or more accurately, whether the printing and writing was produced by the same person who produced the printing and writing on the standards? mr. cole. i did. mr. eisenberg. what was your conclusion? mr. cole. it is my conclusion that the author of the standard writing is the author of the writing on commission exhibit . mr. eisenberg. did you take a photograph of commission ? mr. cole. i did. mr. eisenberg. this was taken by you or under your supervision? mr. cole. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. and it is a true and accurate reproduction of ? mr. cole. it is. mr. eisenberg. this is an by photograph. mr. chairman, may this be admitted as ? mr. mccloy. it may be admitted. (commission exhibit no. was marked and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. by reference to this photograph and by reference to your charts of standards, mr. cole, can you explain to us how you came to this conclusion? mr. cole. yes, sir; with respect to the handprinting of the name "a. j. hidell," i direct attention to the formation of the letter "d" in the same manner as that previously described in the standard writing, chart c, item , first line--a close correspondence as to the construction, writing movement, in forming those letters. the letter "e" compares favorably not only as to form but the circumstance that here again the lowercase letter is mixed in with capital letters. of course, that applies to the three letters "ide" associated with the other capital letter of that name, and that is a habit shown in many places in the standard writing. the "l's" have the compound curve across the base, which has previously been observed in the standard writing. in the name "marina," the form of the capital letter "m" compares closely with the capital letter "m" shown on chart c, item , second line, the name "mercedes." that same name shows the form of letter "a" with the retraced stroke on the left side which exists in many places in the standard writing. the name "oswald" again shows this mixture of uppercase and lowercase letters, namely the circumstance that the "l" and "d" are lower-case forms, whereas the previous, the other four letters are upper case. the signature "l. h. oswald," agrees with other signatures that i have examined, some of which are shown on the charts, chart a, item , chart b, item , and chart c, item , next to the last line, a close correspondence in all details, except that there is some confusion or overriding in the second letter of the last name in the area of the "s," which may be only an accidental imperfection in that particular area. otherwise, there is a fairly clear showing of all the letters, and they agree with the standards. mr. eisenberg. does that "s" that you refer to appear to be two "s's," one printed and one written? mr. cole. yes; it could be that. they are somewhat intertwined there, and we have got this name just following an instance of making handprinting, so that could be an explanation of it. mr. eisenberg. next, i show you a photograph of a card reading "fair play for cuba committee. new orleans chapter, l. h. oswald," signature, "l. h. oswald," dated june , , signed "chapter president--a. j. hidell," and i ask you whether you have examined that photograph? mr. cole. i have. mr. eisenberg. may this be admitted as , mr. chairman? mr. mccloy. it may be admitted. (commission exhibit no. was marked and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. for the record, this is a photograph of a card that was found in oswald's wallet at the time of his apprehension. i now show you a card, a paper card, which appears to be the same as exhibit , except that there is no visible marking where the words "chapter"--where the signature "chapter president--a. j. hidell" is written on exhibit , and the card is seriously discolored with a dark brown discoloration, and i ask you whether you have examined this card i now hand you? mr. cole. i have. mr. eisenberg. may i have that admitted as , mr. chairman? mr. mccloy. it may be admitted. (commission exhibit no. was marked and received in evidence.) mr. eisenberg. in your opinion, is a photograph of the card, ? mr. cole. yes; it is. mr. eisenberg. can you account in any way for the discoloration of the card ? mr. cole. the discoloration is characteristic of that which has previously been observed as resulting from treating a document with a solution of silver nitrate. such treatment is sometimes done in the hope of developing latent fingerprints, and this treatment could be, and probably is, the explanation for the elimination of a line of writing on the line for signature above the title "chapter president." mr. eisenberg. were you able to make out whether any writing had appeared in the space which is now blank on exhibit , making provision for the---- mr. cole. yes; it is---- mr. eisenberg. excuse me, making provision for the chapter president's signature? mr. cole. yes; there is barely enough showing to indicate that there was a line of writing there at one time. mr. eisenberg. could you tell whether it was the same as the signature "a. j. hidell"? mr. cole. it conforms generally to the signature "a. j. hidell," that is, the form shown by the photograph, exhibit . mr. eisenberg. have you taken a photograph of ? mr. cole. yes, sir; i am sorry, sir; i do not have that photograph with me. mr. eisenberg. all right. do you want to take a look at this, mr. mccloy? did you compare the signatures "lee oswald" and "a. j. hidell" on to determine whether they had been written by the author of the standards? mr. cole. yes, sir; may i look at that photograph? yes, sir; i did. mr. eisenberg. what was your conclusion as to the signature of lee h. oswald? mr. cole. it is my opinion that the author of the standard writing is the author of the signature "lee h. oswald" on exhibit . mr. eisenberg. what was your conclusion as to the signature "a. j. hidell"? mr. cole. i find no basis in the standard writing for identification of the author of such standard writing as the author of the name "a. j. hidell" as shown by . mr. eisenberg. do you think that the author of the standard writing might have produced that signature in a disguised hand? mr. cole. i think that is highly improbable, because this does not appear to be a disguised hand. it looks like a fairly natural handwriting. mr. eisenberg. and that is based upon the items which you enumerated earlier which indicated the presence of a natural handwriting, such as speed and so forth? mr. cole. yes. mr. eisenberg. do you think that, apart from the naturalness of the writing, the signature "a. j. hidell" was within oswald's abilities as a penman? mr. cole. it appears to be somewhat beyond his ability. i would say taking into account his general level of writing skill as shown by the standards, i would say this represents a somewhat higher writing skill. mr. eisenberg. off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. eisenberg. on the record. mr. cole. i now hand you a yellow sheet of paper, which has already been introduced into evidence as commission exhibit no. , and for the record i will state that this consists of an interlinear translation from russian into english. the russian script on this document has been identified as being that of george bouhe an acquaintance of the oswald's, and the english script as being that of marina oswald. marina herself identified this as her handwriting, and she stated that bouhe was teaching her english by writing out the russian and having her translate into english. as far as i know this is the only standard we have of marina's handwriting in the latin alphabet. mr. cole. i ask you whether you have examined commission exhibit ? mr. cole. i have. mr. eisenberg. have you attempted to compare the signature "a. j. hidell" on commission exhibit with the latin or english printing, or writing rather, in exhibit , to determine whether they were both written by the same person? mr. cole. i have. mr. eisenberg. and what is your conclusion? mr. cole. my conclusion is that the author of the writing in the latin alphabet on exhibit is a possible author of the name "a. j. hidell" on , but i do not offer that as a definite conclusion. i say "possible author" because i observed a similarity in the particular parts where close comparison is possible, namely, with respect to the lowercase letter "d," of which one example is found in the word "day" on the left side of the lower one-third of exhibit . the similarity consists in the degree of roundness of the body of the letter, and the fairly short and thin loop or the upper extension of the letter "d," plus a similarity with respect to the terminal stroke of that letter, the circumstance that it is not joined continuously with the letter following. another similarity is observed in the double "l's" of the word "especially," which is on the last line at the right side of , and here we have a similarity with respect to the proportion of the height of those letters relative to other small letters. there is no opportunity for making a more extensive comparison between the name "a. j. hidell" on with this standard writing. and on that basis i would say only that the author of the standard could be regarded as a possible author of the questioned signature. mr. eisenberg. mr. cole, would the production of cyrillic writing, that is writing in the russian language, be useful to you in evaluating the signature on ? mr. cole. i believe not. mr. eisenberg. can you explain that? mr. cole. well, ordinarily a person who--i might say this, that the construction in writing one alphabet and the other would be completely different--that one would develop habits along different lines. it could not be expected that there would be a close translation of habits from one alphabet into another. mr. eisenberg. is enough writing present in so that you believe you could make a definite identification if you had a sufficient standard on which to base your comparison? mr. cole. yes; i think so. mr. eisenberg. if we obtained a greater standard, that is, a more voluminous standard, of the handwriting of marina oswald or other persons, would you undertake to make the examination and to submit your result, either in the form of testimony or by written communication to us, mr. cole? mr. cole. yes; i would be quite willing to. mr. eisenberg. mr. chairman, may we state on the record that the commission is requesting mr. cole to do this, if we can obtain a better standard, and that we will attempt to obtain such a standard? mr. mccloy. very well. mr. eisenberg. mr. cole, referring to again for a moment, can you characterize the degree of skill with which the writing is produced, that is the english or latin alphabet present on ? mr. cole. i would say it is an average degree of skill, fairly good based upon the perfection of letter forms, regularity of proportions, speed of writing--i would say fairly good. mr. eisenberg. would it require much practice in the use of the latin alphabet to attain the degree of skill evidenced in ? mr. cole. well, it would certainly take some practice. it is not the writing of a novice in forming these particular letters. mr. eisenberg. can you expand a little on what you mean by "some practice"? a week's practice, or a month's practice, or a year's practice? mr. cole. of course, this depends on how intensive the practice is, but i would certainly say more than a week's practice. mr. mccloy. mr. cole, have you examined the russian script, have you attempted to make anything out of such russian script as we have of marina oswald, have you seen standard forms? mr. cole. no, sir; i have not. mr. mccloy. might it not be helpful to look at some of that to see whether there is anything you can make out of that that would help you in the---- mr. cole. i am inclined to doubt it, but i would be quite willing to take a look at it. mr. mccloy. i can understand your reasons for doubting it but there may be something that we have here--we have here, have we not? mr. eisenberg. yes, we do. mr. mccloy. a very substantial number, quantities of marina's writing in russian, and it may be that there is something you can glean from that if you would look at it perhaps before you go. mr. eisenberg. i will make arrangements for mr. cole to see that writing, mr. chairman. any further question on this fair play for cuba committee card? mr. mccloy. no, i don't think so. mr. eisenberg. finally then, mr. cole, i show you an item consisting of a letter on a yellow piece of stationery, apparently torn from a legal-size pad, addressed to leslie welding co. from "lee h. oswald"--signed "lee h. oswald"--and with an address handprinted, and reading "dear sir, this is to explain that i have moved permanently to dallas, texas, where i have found other employment," and so forth, and i ask you whether you have examined that item? mr. cole. i have. mr. eisenberg. may that be admitted as , mr. chairman? mr. mccloy. it may be admitted. (the item referred to was marked , and received into evidence.) mr. eisenberg. did you attempt to compare this item with the standards to determine whether it had been produced by the author of the standards? mr. cole. i did. mr. eisenberg. what was your conclusion? mr. cole. it is my conclusion that the author of the standard writing is the author of the writing shown by exhibit . mr. eisenberg. can you briefly give us some of the reasons for that conclusion? mr. cole. yes; there is an agreement in a great many details between this letter, , some of which i think are more significant than others. one of the really highly significant points is the formation of the letter "x" in the word "texas" which has already been mentioned in connection with other exhibits. now, this word appears on , on the second---- mr. eisenberg. excuse me. that exhibit should be, have been, a. let's refer to it from now on as a. (the item referred to was renumbered.) mr. cole. the exhibit just mentioned is understood to be a, and the word "texas" appears on the second line of the body of the letter. the method of forming this "x" is first to construct a =u=-like form, that is, a form having two cusps with a shallow curve connecting the two, and then to make the crossbar in such a manner that it comes very close to the second cusp. this is a very unusual variation of the letter "x," and it appears in the standard writing--also in the word "texas"--in several places, chart b, items , , and . the writing shows the tendency to exaggerate certain approach strokes or initial strokes of letters. in the body of exhibit this is evident in the letter "i" of "is," which is the second word of the first line, and moving along that same first line we have the same effect for the first stroke of the "t" of "to" and the "t" of "that." then moving down to the second paragraph, third word, the same effect is shown, and this is illustrated in the standard writing in two places, one good example being chart a, item , the word "to," the same chart, item , the word "the." the construction of the small letter "p" has been mentioned heretofore, has been characterized by an absence of an upper extension, that is, no extension that passes above the height of the body of the letter, and the body of the letter is made in the form of an arch, rather than a circle closed against the staff. this is shown in the words "presently" and "employ," which are in the last line of writing of this exhibit, and this is repeated in the standard writing as shown by chart a, item , the word "support," item , the word "port" and the word "transportation." there is a very close agreement in all details of the signature of lee h. oswald on this letter with the several examples of the signatures shown on these charts, chart a, item , chart b, item , and chart c, item , second to the last line. the word "texas," including this highly significant "x," is repeated as the last word on this letter. these constitute some of my reasons for believing that exhibit a is in the handwriting of the author of the standard writing. mr. eisenberg. now, to recapitulate then, all the standards which you have examined and which were put in evidence, and all of the questioned documents which you have examined and which were put in evidence, are in the handwriting of the same person, with the exceptions you have noted, such as "a. j. hidell" on the penultimate exhibit, the fpcc card? mr. cole. yes, sir. mr. eisenberg. mr. cole, did you have any information concerning any identifications or nonidentifications of handwriting made by any other federal agency in this matter? mr. cole. no, sir. mr. eisenberg. did you have any other information whatsoever concerning identification or nonidentification by anyone in this matter? mr. cole. no, sir. mr. eisenberg. do you at this point have any such information? mr. cole. no, sir. mr. eisenberg. that completes my examination, mr. mccloy. mr. mccloy. off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. mccloy. commission exhibit is a series of checks which have been endorsed by oswald, some in lead pencil and some in ink. some of those endorsements seem to be, rather the handwriting seems to be, very irregular, loose, malformed, certain other ones very clear and quite regular, and in comparison with other standards of oswald's i find some difficulty in conforming the signatures on certain of these endorsements to those standards. i wonder if you would look at these and tell me whether you have any comments in regard to the comments i have made about this--about these checks? the first two or three there seem to exemplify what i am talking about. mr. cole. in my opinion the endorsements on these checks show a moderately wide range of writing habit, and they also show variations which may be due to an attitude about the act of writing, and i am thinking especially of the more distorted signatures, such as that appearing on no. ; and by attitude i mean that a person might find the act of writing very inconvenient or distasteful or might actually be experiencing some strong emotion at the particular time. mr. mccloy. could it be, might i interrupt, could it be that he was writing while he was in movement here, while he was in an automobile or some jolting vehicle? mr. cole. well, that can affect handwriting, of course, but i believe it is unlikely, because the first letter of his name is well formed. the first letter of "lee" on this endorsement of shows as much skill and control as any of the better signatures. mr. mccloy. you think maybe something irritated him in between? mr. cole. that is a possibility. i think most people find the act of writing, especially writing a signature, a pleasant thing to do. i think that is one reason why people develop a somewhat higher skill. mr. mccloy. it depends on whether it is an endorsement of a check or a drawing of the check. mr. cole. that could make a difference. mr. mccloy. well, thank you very much. mr. cole. yes, sir. (whereupon, at : p.m., the president's commission recessed.) _tuesday, may , _ testimony of john w. fain, john lester quigley, and james patrick hosty, jr. the president's commission met at : a.m. on may , , at maryland avenue ne., washington, d.c. present were chief justice earl warren, chairman; senator john sherman cooper, representative gerald r. ford, john j. mccloy, and allen w. dulles, members. also present were j. lee rankin, general counsel; david w. belin, assistant counsel; wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel; norman redlich, assistant counsel; samuel a. stern, assistant counsel; howard p. willens, assistant counsel; charles murray, observer; and leon jaworski, special counsel to the attorney general of texas. testimony of john w. fain the chairman. mr. fain, the purpose of today's hearing is to take the testimony of members of the federal bureau of investigation, including yourself, who interviewed lee harvey oswald or other important witnesses, before and after the assassination, and concerning the assassination of president kennedy, both before and after. we will also take the testimony today of mr. belmont, one of your superiors. would you please rise, mr. fain, and raise your right hand and be sworn. you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. fain. i do, sir. the chairman. will you be seated, please. mr. stern will conduct the examination. mr. stern. mr. stern. yes, sir. mr. fain, would you state your full name for the record, please. mr. fain. john wythe fain. mr. stern. and your address? mr. fain. pebblebrook, houston , tex. mr. stern. what is your education, mr. fain, at the college level? mr. fain. after graduation from weatherford high school in , i entered weatherford junior college at weatherford, tex., which i finished in years in . after teaching school for about years, i entered the university of texas, in the summer of . i finished my prelaw work, and in , the spring of that year, i received my ll.b. degree in law from the university of texas. mr. stern. are you a member of the bar, mr. fain? mr. fain. i am a member of the texas state bar. mr. stern. can you summarize briefly your employment experience after receiving your law degree and before joining the federal bureau of investigation? mr. fain. i will have to go back just a little bit there. in i ran for the office of representative in the state legislature from weatherford, tex., my home city in parker county, my home county, and served two terms, no opposition on the second term, and then i did not seek reelection at the end of the second term. i chose to go on and get my law degree at the university of texas. then, in i became employed. robert b. anderson, whom i suppose you know---- the chairman. former secretary of the treasury. mr. fain. former secretary of the treasury, yes; he and i were good friends, and it happened, that he was in the adjoining county of johnson, which touched my county, parker. i had met him in weatherford junior college, and we were in the same debating society at weatherford junior college, and i served in the texas state legislature with him, i sat in some of his law classes at the university of texas, and then he was instrumental in giving me or getting me appointed to, a position as district supervisor of the texas unemployment compensation commission. it is now known as the texas employment commission. i was in charge of investigations of claims for unemployment insurance, and i served in that capacity at waco, tex., until on september of i entered the fbi. of course, i made my application prior to that. i served in the federal bureau of investigation as a law-trained special agent until october of , upon which date i retired voluntarily. mr. stern. can you describe briefly your experience in the fbi. mr. fain. yes, sir. after finishing my training session here at the seat of government. i believe that lasted weeks at that time, i took my practical experience here for a couple of weeks, and then was assigned to the chicago, ill., field office, where i remained for a period of approximately months. i received a transfer to oklahoma city, where i was weeks, and then they stationed me at tulsa, okla., as a resident agent, where i remained approximately a year. i then was transferred to san francisco, calif., where i remained for approximately years; and in december of i was transferred to dallas, tex., where i remained for approximately years in the head office there, division office in dallas, and then i was sent to fort worth in as a resident agent of the fbi, and remained there until i voluntarily retired on october , . mr. stern. now, would you describe the relationship between the fort worth office and the dallas office. mr. stern. well, the dallas office is the headquarters city to which i was originally assigned and, of course, in that area distances are rather great between the cities, so we have what is known as resident agencies, there being at that time agents in the fort worth office. (at this point in the proceedings mr. mccloy entered the hearing room.) and we had agents, of course, at lubbock and amarillo and wichita falls, sherman, harris, and the other cities in order for economy reasons, to save travel. it would be a rather expensive operation to go from dallas to those other areas. mr. stern. mr. fain, did you specialize in any particular area of fbi work or were your assignments general? mr. fain. my assignments were comparatively general up until, i would say, about , at which time i specialized mostly in security matters. most of my investigations after were security-type investigations. mr. stern. this is true---- mr. fain. however, i did handle--excuse me, i did continue to handle--other types of investigations, too. mr. stern. this is true until your retirement? mr. fain. yes, sir. mr. stern. were you in charge of the investigation of lee harvey oswald until the time of your retirement? mr. fain. yes, sir; up until the time we closed the case--i don't recall the exact date, it can be verified from the report--but, i think we closed the case, following his interview on august . mr. stern. well to the extent---- mr. fain. i want to correct that. it was august . mr. stern. we will get to that, mr. fain. but to the extent the case was being investigated during your tenure, were you in charge of the case? mr. fain. yes, sir; the case was assigned to me. mr. stern. fine. that is all i want right now. mr. fain. yes, sir. mr. stern. how many other cases on an average would you be in charge of during this period from until retirement? mr. fain. from until the time of retirement? mr. stern. yes. mr. fain. i don't have any exact figure on that, but i suppose i would have to cases. mr. stern. at anytime? mr. fain. yes, sir. mr. stern. mr. fain, i show you a seven-page mimeographed report marked "report of john w. fain," dated may , . can you identify that report? (marked for identification no. .) mr. fain. yes, sir; this is my report. mr. stern. were you responsible for preparing this entire report, mr. fain? mr. fain. yes; i was. mr. stern. have you reviewed the report in preparation for your testimony today? mr. fain. yes, sir. mr. stern. is the report correct? mr. fain. yes, sir. mr. stern. is there anything you want to correct in the report? mr. fain. no, sir. mr. stern. is it complete in covering the events described? mr. fain. it is. mr. stern. so that you have no additions or corrections? mr. fain. no additions or corrections. mr. stern. let me ask you, first, mr. fain, about a couple of symbols that appear on the first page of the report. the report is characterized as "internal security r." what does the "r" mean? mr. fain. it stands for "russia." mr. stern. at the end of the synopsis on the first page are the letters "ruc." can you tell us what that means? mr. fain. that is a symbol to save typing and stenographic effort and so forth. it is known to all agents, and it means "referred upon completion," "ruc," "referred upon completion," to the office of origin actually. in other words, it indicates that the investigation there at that point where it was conducted has been completed and we are referring it back. mr. stern. to an office which had prime responsibility? mr. fain. yes, sir; in this case i suppose it was the bureau in washington. i see the bureau file number up there at the top. mr. stern. i see. do you recall, mr. fain, how you were assigned to investigate this matter which is entitled in this report "funds transmitted to resident of russia"? mr. fain. yes, sir. we received a communication, or rather the dallas office did, from bureau to the effect that there was an indication that application had been made by mrs. oswald, marguerite c. oswald, for a draft, purchase transfer of funds, to be sent to lee harvey oswald over in russia, and i was given the assignment to contact her and find out all i could about the circumstances. mr. stern. concerning the transfer of funds? mr. fain. yes, sir; you will notice that the title in this case is "funds transmitted to residents of russia," that was the type of inquiry. mr. stern. to your recollection, had you ever before this time heard the name "lee harvey oswald" or any other member of the oswald family? mr. fain. well, i believe--let's see, april , , i talked to robert lee in an effort to locate his mother. mr. stern. by this time, mr. fain, i mean the time covered by your report, not the date of the report. mr. fain. just what i read in the newspapers about his having gone over into russia. the papers played it up. mr. stern. did you have any official responsibility in connection with lee harvey oswald before the time covered by this report? mr. fain. no, sir; no, i did not. mr. stern. on page of the report--is this a record of an interview that you held, mr. fain? mr. fain. it is. it is a record of the interview that i conducted. mr. stern. is this a form normally used for reporting interviews? mr. fain. yes, sir. mr. stern. what is your practice or what was your practice, while an fbi agent, in making interviews? would you make notes of the interview as you interviewed a subject? mr. fain. yes, sir. mr. stern. are you familiar with any shorthand method? mr. fain. i had a course in shorthand and, of course, still know some of the symbols and, at that time, did use it, mixed it up with my other english as i wrote it. i did use it. mr. stern. can you tell from this report when you made the interview? mr. fain. i interviewed robert lee oswald, who was the brother, older brother, of lee harvey oswald, the subject of this case, on april , , at fort worth, tex. mr. stern. can you tell the commission where that appears from your report? mr. fain. the date of the interview? (at this point in the proceedings, representative ford entered the hearing room.) mr. stern. yes. mr. fain. the date of the interview is located on the lower left-hand corner, and also the place of the interview. mr. stern. when did you transcribe--or, first, how would you do that normally? mr. fain. well, i dictated this on may , . it evidently was transcribed by the stenographer, as noted, on the upper right-hand corner--this is a little dim--but it looks like may , . this is a very old copy. mr. stern. you would dictate this to a secretary, mr. fain? mr. fain. some of it i dictated on the dictaphone, some of it i would do by rough draft and send by mail to dallas, and if i happened to be in dallas, i would dictate to the stenographer. mr. stern. would you ordinarily preserve your rough notes of the interview after you dictated your report? mr. fain. not after it gets in this form, because this contains all the information in the notes we have. in other words, we put everything right in. now this is supposed to be an exact transcript of the information. it is not a recording of the information. i don't mean to leave that impression. mr. stern. and you would normally destroy your notes? mr. fain. yes, sir; unless there was some--there would be no reason to keep my notes, once i put all the information i was assured was in here. once that is true i destroyed them. mr. stern. i think these reports largely speak for themselves, mr. fain, but i would like to ask you a few details to clarify statements in the report. on page in the report of your interview of mrs. marguerite oswald, you say in the second line, "she volunteered for interview." what does that mean in this connection? mr. fain. you will notice that on the lower left-hand corner it indicates i talked to her on the th, april , which was the day after i talked to her son robert lee, and evidently he had gotten in touch with her on the same afternoon that i talked to him or that night. anyway she knocked on the door the next day and wanted to talk to me; and she came in voluntarily. i believe robert told me that he would get in touch with her. he gave me her address, at least, and i was going to send out a lead to have her interviewed down there, but she came in to talk to me, voluntarily. mr. stern. would you look at page of your report, mr. fain, the fourth full paragraph from the top of the page, the paragraph that begins, "mrs. oswald stated," and the last sentence of that paragraph reads, "mrs. oswald stated that she would not have been surprised to learn that lee had gone to, say, south america or cuba, but that it had never entered her mind that he might go to russia or might try to become a citizen there." as far as you can remember, is that accurately what she said? mr. fain. yes; that is as she said, i put it down. she seemed very much upset that he had gone to russia. mr. stern. did she explain that to you? mr. fain. none other than this. in other words, she said she wouldn't have been surprised that he had gone to, say, south america or cuba, she was taken aback by learning he had gone to russia. you see, he had told her he was going over to new orleans to go to work over there, and she was apparently very surprised that he had taken this boat to europe, to russia. mr. stern. mr. fain, in your report of your interview with mrs. marguerite oswald, you quote several letters and refer to other specific bits of information. how did you get that so accurately? mr. fain. she had all of those in her purse. she had all those clippings that had appeared in the paper, and she had quite a stack of them there, and i got the information out of those at the time. mr. stern. she displayed them to you and let you copy them? mr. fain. yes, sir; she displayed them to me, that is right. the chairman. gentlemen, are there any other questions any of you would like to ask mr. fain? he has stated that everything he knows concerning this matter is contained in his written report. mr. fain. yes, sir; that is correct. representative ford. may i ask a question? the chairman. yes, indeed. representative ford. is it the practice of the bureau to check with relatives of those who defect or make an attempt to defect to the soviet union? mr. fain. well, i was--my primary motive here was--trying to locate her. i wanted to talk to her. if i had been able to talk to her, the mother, i probably wouldn't have contacted robert. but he was the only one that i could locate there that knew anything about it, about where she might be, so i, in the course of things, interviewed him to try to find out what i could find out from him. representative ford. i am more concerned about the overall policy. whenever an individual makes an attempt to defect or does defect, is it the policy of the fbi to subsequently interview relatives of the individual who tried or did defect? mr. fain. mr. ford, i am unable to answer that because i am not versed in overall policy, and i am sorry. i am not trying to avoid your question, but i just actually don't know. representative form. what prompted you then in your capacity to interview---- mr. fain. robert? representative ford. either robert or mrs. oswald? mr. fain. well, i was instructed to get in touch with her and find out what the situation was. the only way i could get the information was to talk to her, and i talked to robert only in connection with my attempts to locate her. representative ford. but your instructions came from whom? mr. fain. i don't have the memorandum or communication that came in here in connection with this, but it came from the bureau, i am sure, through the dallas office. representative ford. and you were working out of dallas? mr. fain. right. my supervisor over in dallas, no doubt, either called me or else very likely he wrote an assignment and mailed it to me in fort worth. representative ford. your assignment was really to check with the mother, both, or all? mr. fain. actually, i don't recall how the assignment was worded, i really don't. i haven't seen it for over a year and a half, and i just don't recall exactly how that came. representative ford. but the only reason for such an interview was the fact that the son had gone to russia and either defected or attempted to do so; was that the basis of the investigation? mr. fain. yes, sir. we wanted to find out the circumstances and about these funds and any information we could ascertain and, of course, it is always important in this type of case to find out whether or not any of these--especially intelligence agents or anyone like that might contact these people and try to get information from them. we try to get these people to let us know if anything like that happens. representative ford. that was really the purpose of the interview or investigation you conducted? mr. fain. let me see if i can find out. in this paragraph there is an indication---- representative ford. paragraph on what page? mr. fain. paragraph on page . "he stated he had no contact in any manner or form with any individual known to him to be a soviet official or affiliated in any way with soviet establishments. he also advised that as far as he knows neither his mother or other members of his family had had any contact whatsoever with soviet officials or with soviet establishments." i explained to him the jurisdiction of the fbi, that the fbi had jurisdiction in internal security matters in the united states, and robert told me that he would immediately contact the fbi in the event he was contacted by soviet officials. then i also asked him, as is contained in that final paragraph on the same page, "oswald stated that neither he nor his mother as far as he knew had been requested to furnish any items of personal identification to lee oswald in russia. he said he would immediately contact the fbi in the event any information like that came to his attention." representative ford. these were the only interviews you had with either one of them? mr. fain. yes, sir; at that time, yes, sir. senator cooper. can i ask a question? mr. mccloy. did you have one at any other time? mr. fain. these were the first interviews. we will get to those later. do you want to go into those? mr. mccloy. never mind. we will get to those in due course. but wasn't the touch-off on this investigation the fact that a transfer order or an attempted remittance was being sent to oswald in russia by his mother? mr. fain. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. that was the thing that prompted the inquiry, wasn't it? mr. fain. yes, sir; that is right. the chairman. senator. senator cooper. yes. did mrs. oswald give you any reason for her statement she would not have been surprised if lee oswald had gone to cuba or some south american country? did she explain that statement? mr. fain. no; she didn't. she just--of course, she was all upset and bothered by his having gone to russia, and she expressed great surprise that he had gone to russia, and she said just casually or during the course of the conversation she wouldn't have been surprised for him to have gone, say, to south america or to cuba, but to go to russia, she was totally surprised and taken aback. senator cooper. she didn't give you any reason why she would not have been surprised---- mr. fain. no; she didn't go into that. senator cooper. whether he had said anything about cuba or south america. the chairman. all right, mr. fain. do you have other questions? mr. stern. i have other questions for him. i thought we might break it up in the order of his reports. the chairman. go right ahead. mr. stern. one last question at this stage, mr. fain: did mrs. oswald indicate to you in any way that she thought lee harvey oswald had gone to russia in any capacity other than as a private citizen? mr. fain. no; she did not. she apparently didn't know why he had gone at all. she was surprised he had gone in the first place. mr. stern. she did not suggest in any way that he might have been an agent of the united states or serving united states interests in russia? mr. fain. i think she did remark something about she believed he was a secret agent. maybe she was clutching at anything---- mr. stern. she did? is that covered in that report? mr. fain. in one of these reports i believe it is. mr. stern. i am talking about this one, as of this time. mr. fain. no; i believe that came in something else. she told evidently the state department in washington, d.c. mr. stern. yes. mr. fain. that is where that came from. mr. stern. i am asking whether she suggested this to you at the time of your interview of mrs. oswald on april , . mr. fain. no; i don't recall anything of that. i have confused that. mr. stern. mr. chairman, may we have the report admitted into evidence? the chairman. it may be and it will take the next number. mr. stern. that was marked for identification . the chairman. all right. no. may be admitted. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification, and received in evidence.) mr. stern. mr. fain, i show you a report of pages dated july , , entitled "lee harvey oswald." can you identify this report for us, and we will number it for identification no. . mr. fain. yes, sir; this is my report. it is dated july of . mr. stern. have you reviewed this report recently in preparation for your testimony today? mr. fain. i have. mr. stern. is the report complete in all respects of the subject matter it covers? mr. fain. yes; it is. mr. stern. is it accurate in all respects of the subject matter it covers? mr. fain. yes, sir. mr. stern. is there any addition or correction you would like to make to the report as it stands now? mr. fain. no, sir. mr. stern. the report shows on the cover page, mr. fain, that a copy was sent to the office of naval intelligence in new orleans, la. can you tell us why that was done? mr. fain. well, this investigation at this time was under internal security category r, and you will notice that predicated on information received by a communication of january , , from district intelligence office, naval district, new orleans, la., advising that oswald, who had attempted to defect in russia in october , and who was a member of the u.s. marine corps reserve had been given an undesirable discharge from the u.s. marine corps reserve on august , . mr. stern. when you say the investigation was predicated on this information, what precisely do you mean? mr. fain. that was the reason that this report was initiated from that incoming communication from new orleans. mr. stern. and how did this information come to you? was it sent to you directly, if you know, from the new orleans naval district or did it come from fbi---- mr. fain. it would have come through dallas, the headquarters division office in dallas. mr. stern. but so far as you know was it sent from new orleans to dallas or from new orleans to fbi headquarters in washington and then disseminated to dallas? mr. fain. i expect it came directly to the dallas office. it could have been, the office there might have gotten a copy of it, might have gotten the original, and this might have been a copy. i just don't recall. mr. stern. were you instructed to make this investigation or did you initiate it yourself on the strength of this information from the naval district in new orleans? mr. fain. there again i believe that the supervisor in dallas asked that this case be--or did reopen it and asked for a background investigation. it looks like this is a background type of investigation on the individual lee harvey oswald. mr. stern. when you say "reopen," mr. fain, does that mean there was a case opened previously on lee oswald? mr. fain. no; i used the wrong term. i confused it with this report. this looks a different type of investigation, this "funds transmitted to residents of russia." mr. stern. that was not an investigation of lee harvey oswald as such? mr. fain. that is right. mr. stern. this was actually the first report concerning the individual? mr. fain. that is correct. mr. stern. so that did this represent the opening of a case on lee harvey oswald, mr. fain? mr. fain. yes; it did. mr. stern. and as far as you know, there was no earlier investigation of lee harvey oswald as such; is that correct? mr. fain. i believe that is correct. mr. stern. i am just asking you of your own knowledge. mr. fain. that is right. mr. stern. you say this was a background investigation. what do you mean by that, mr. fain? mr. fain. well, we always ascertain his correct name and aliases, and residences, where he previously lived, his employment, his citizenship status, his nationality background, his education, his military record, whether or not he had any relatives, close relatives, in the armed forces; and we get a physical description of him, identification record, and where possible we always get a photograph; and his mother furnished a copy of the photograph to us on april , . mr. stern. on the first page of the report, the initial "c" appears after the synopsis. what does that mean, mr. fain? mr. fain. that means closed. mr. stern. what does that indicate to you in terms of the investigation? mr. fain. well, it indicated that we obtained the information concerning this person, to identify him, as to who he was, something about him, about his background; it appearing there was no further need for investigation at that time, we closed the case. mr. stern. your report indicates at page that the files of the office of naval intelligence in louisiana were checked. was that done at your request, if you recall? did you check those files? mr. fain. i did not. that would have been checked in the new orleans division. mr. stern. would this have been done at your request or on the instructions of someone else? mr. fain. i am of the opinion that that information probably came along with the other information or subsequent to the other information on which this case was predicated. i don't recall asking them to make any check like that. mr. stern. the first paragraph on page reads a little differently. it says, "information received by communication from the naval district," and on page you refer to a check of the files of naval intelligence. mr. fain. it sounds like a check was made, and they had made some information available to us, and i incorporated it in this report. mr. stern. "they" is--who do you mean by "they"? mr. fain. the new orleans division of the fbi. mr. stern. of the fbi? mr. fain. yes, sir. mr. stern. but the first indication on page , when you refer to information received by communication from the district intelligence office, does that seem to indicate a check was made by the fbi office in new orleans or this information was delivered by the office of naval intelligence voluntarily, without request? mr. fain. i don't recall ever dictating a request. it could have happened, but you must remember it has been over a year and a half since i referred to these things. and---- mr. stern. sure. mr. fain. that just sounds like it is a communication we received from there, and that we opened the case based on that information. that would be my opinion now. mr. stern. but you don't know why they would have been sending you that information? mr. fain. that can be ascertained. mr. stern. yes. we, perhaps, can find out from other witnesses if you don't remember, and if you don't know, just tell us that. mr. fain. i do not know; i don't recall that. mr. stern. all right. on page , the top paragraph, in reference to a review of the files of the passport office of the department of state, again do you recall whether this was done at your request by someone else? mr. fain. no, sir; i do not. it could have been requested by letter out of the dallas office or it might have been that it was made up here at seat of government. mr. stern. but in any event did you check these files at the state department? mr. fain. i did not. mr. stern. the passport office? mr. fain. no. my investigative jurisdiction was the fort worth area and vicinity. mr. stern. again would you summarize your recollection of the purpose and direction of the investigation at this stage, at the time covered by this report. what do you recall to have been the purpose and direction of the investigation? mr. fain. at this particular point it seems we were looking at this individual, opened the case to find out who he was and see if he was any kind of an internal threat, a threat to the internal security of our country. mr. stern. what was your evaluation of that question as a result of your investigation? mr. fain. at that time we--there was nothing appearing that he was of any potential danger to the security of--i was trying to find out whether or not, you will notice on page there the last paragraph, to see whether or not he was a member of the communist party in fort worth, and my check of our confidential sources showed that there was no knowledge available, no information available, that he was a member of the communist party. that was supposed primarily my immediate objective, to find out whether or not he was connected with the communist party there in fort worth, in addition to the developing of the background information on him. mr. stern. and this entered into your evaluation at the time, the fact that he was not a member of the communist party? mr. fain. yes, sir; there was no indication that he was a member of the communist party in fort worth. mr. stern. was it also relevant to your evaluation that he was apparently living in russia at the time? mr. fain. i beg your pardon? mr. stern. was it also relevant to your conclusion about his not being a threat to the internal security of the united states that at the time he was apparently living in russia, at the time covered by this report? mr. fain. well, certainly we were going to keep track of him from then on, naturally, if he is over there. the chairman. gentlemen, any questions? mr. mccloy. mr. mccloy. on the top of page , mr. chief justice, this report refers to the review on may , , of the files of the passport office. who did make that review if you didn't make it? mr. fain. someone, some employee of the fbi here at the seat of government. mr. mccloy. how did you know it was made? mr. fain. how did i know it was made? mr. mccloy. yes. mr. fain. the communication concerning the results of the check were sent by mail back to dallas, and then my supervisor sent it to me at fort worth. mr. mccloy. that is how it came to be embodied in your report? mr. fain. yes, sir; and i covered it in my report. mr. mccloy. i see. have we got a copy of that? do we have that review, the report of that review? mr. stern. we will receive testimony concerning it from the assistant to the director of the bureau. mr. mccloy. will we be able to examine the person who examined mrs. oswald and to whom apparently she said that she thought he was a secret agent, that oswald was a secret agent? mr. stern. i am sure we can arrange that. that would have been someone in the state department. mr. mccloy. that is right. but you don't know anything except what is stated in the report here? mr. fain. that is correct, as a result of a communication from this office to dallas. mr. mccloy. no further reasons that you recall in that report as to why she thought he was a secret agent or he might have been a secret agent? mr. fain. no, sir; i am sure i copied it from that report just like it was there. she expressed the thought that, perhaps, her son had gone to the soviet union as a secret agent, and the state department was not doing enough to help him. mr. mccloy. all right. the chairman. congressman ford. representative ford. no questions. the chairman. senator cooper. senator cooper. again i ask you, on page , the second paragraph, it states, "mrs. oswald also stated the subject had mentioned something about his desire to travel and said something also about the fact that he might go to cuba." do you remember whether or not she talked to you about that? mr. fain. yes, sir; that was the information that she gave me on april . if you will notice from the first paragraph on april , , mrs. marguerite oswald stated that was a repeat, in other words, of the information that actually was contained in this first report we mentioned a while ago. senator cooper. on page she stated she had not been requested to furnish any items of personal identification of the subject in russia. what is meant by that "personal identification"? mr. fain. well, in these espionage cases we wanted to be sure that they hadn't been contacted by the soviet intelligence agencies for any purpose or any reason at all. we didn't know whether maybe he went over there and maybe they had gotten in touch with his parents or his relatives and demanded any information about him to verify who he was, and so forth. mr. mccloy. could you remember the photograph that mrs. oswald presented to you of lee oswald? mr. fain. yes, sir; i don't remember the details right now, but i believe it was a photograph of him in the service. mr. mccloy. so far as you can recollect it was in uniform? mr. fain. i just don't recall the facts. mr. mccloy. you don't recall that he was carrying any weapons? mr. fain. he was not. i am sure he was not carrying any weapons. i don't believe, i am certain--i don't believe--he was in uniform at all. i think it was a picture of him. the picture, as i recall it, was not a recent picture. it was or years old. mr. mccloy. all right. (at this point in the proceedings, senator cooper leaves the hearing room.) the chairman. very well, mr. stern, you may continue with the next item. mr. stern. thank you, mr. chairman. may we admit exhibit for identification at this time? the chairman. it may be admitted under that number. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification and received in evidence.) mr. stern. mr. fain, i show you commission exhibit no. for identification, a report of pages dated july , . can you identify this report for the commission? mr. fain. yes, sir; this is my report dated july , . mr. stern. have you reviewed this report in preparation for your testimony today? mr. fain. i have. mr. stern. is it correct in all respects concerning the material covered? mr. fain. yes, sir. mr. stern. is there anything you would like to add to any of the data set forth there? mr. fain. no, sir; i believe not. mr. stern. it carries on page after the synopsis the symbol "p." what does that mean, mr. fain? mr. fain. pending, a pending case. mr. stern. now, the case was closed, i believe you told us, as of the time of your last report which was commission no. . can you tell us how this report, this exhibit for identification, came to be prepared, and how the investigation reflected in this report came to be held? mr. fain. yes, sir; there began to appear various items of information that this subject, lee oswald, was preparing or was desiring to come back to the united states, and---- mr. stern. how did you learn this, mr. fain? mr. fain. well, the various communications which i received or which our office there received, and various checks that the state department---- mr. stern. excuse me, by your office there what do you mean, dallas? mr. fain. the communications would come over to me from dallas from my supervisor. mr. stern. yes. mr. fain. and he would get the communications from the seat of government. mr. stern. "the seat of government" is the way you refer in the bureau to the federal bureau of investigation? mr. fain. the federal bureau of investigation or it might have come from the washington field office here. mr. stern. so the seat of government can mean any communication from washington, either from your field office here or from your headquarters? mr. fain. that is the way i have been referring to it as seat of government. mr. stern. i see. all right. please continue telling us how this investigation was carried out. mr. fain. i was given the assignment to contact his folks, mrs. oswald, his mother, and---- mr. stern. by whom, if you recall, mr. fain? was this an assignment that came from fbi headquarters or from---- mr. fain. this incidentally, this communication, we got dated september , , from the washington field office. you see the seat of government is the main headquarters, in d.c. then we have a field office there, washington field office, that we refer to as wfo, which is an office similar to the dallas division or the buffalo division or other divisions, a working division that goes out and conducts investigations in the area. i was given the assignment to contact mrs. oswald, the mother, and to find out any information that she might have. they had been cooperative, and i wanted to see what the situation was, and especially when this boy was coming home. we wanted to interview him and stay on top of the situation, and in that connection i contacted robert lee oswald again because she wasn't in town, i couldn't locate her. mr. stern. where in your report is that stated? mr. fain. on page . he gave me her address, said she had gone to a ranch around vernon, tex., in the western area and our agent at wichita falls made contact with her. that is set out in the middle of the page--the results of of the contact. mr. stern. that was at what time? mr. fain. on october "mrs. marguerite oswald, eagle street, apartment no. , vernon, texas, advised that about months previously she had received from her son," and so forth. mr. stern. it took this period of time from your interview in september---- mr. fain. september . mr. stern. to locate mrs. oswald? mr. fain. yes, sir. that is about weeks, isn't it? mr. stern. yes. mr. fain. i think, my recollection is, he had difficulty locating her in that sparsely settled western country. i think he had to go to several different towns and finally located her. mr. stern. so that the interview of mrs. oswald reflected at the bottom of page was the interview conducted by another agent at your request; is that right? mr. fain. that is at the request of the dallas office, that is right. the chairman. may i interrupt a moment, gentlemen? i have a commitment at the smithsonian institution for about minutes, and so i will be obliged to leave at this time. congressman ford, will you preside during my absence, and if you should be obliged to leave for your congressional duties, leave it in charge of mr. mccloy to do it. i expect to be back in three-quarters of an hour. (at this point in the proceedings, the chairman leaves the hearing room.) representative ford [presiding]. will you proceed, please, mr. stern. mr. stern. yes, sir. was your interview with robert lee oswald at your instance or did he volunteer? mr. fain. i located him for interview and tried to locate his mother and, incidentally, in that connection he was very cooperative, and i obtained all the information that he had that i could, and he volunteered a lot of this information. mr. stern. had you previously asked him to let you know if he had received any communication from his brother? mr. fain. i had asked him to be sure to let us know in case--i told him we wanted to talk to him when he came back. mr. stern. you told him you wanted to know when lee harvey oswald was coming back, but not whether he had any specific communication? mr. fain. we specifically wanted him to let us know if he had any contact with soviet intelligence agents, anything like that, anything that he thought might not look right, to be sure and let us know. mr. stern. then on page it says that "mrs. robert oswald promised to advise upon his arrival." were you---- mr. fain. that was the wife of robert. mr. stern. yes. did you interview mrs. oswald, mrs. robert oswald? mr. fain. yes, sir; yes, i did. mr. stern. what was the occasion for that interview, mr. fain? mr. fain. well, to be sure and have someone let us know when this boy lee arrived back in town. mr. stern. you were willing to rely on her advice? mr. fain. we had no reason not to. they had been very cooperative, both mrs. oswald and robert oswald. robert is an older brother of lee. i think he was about years older than lee. mr. stern. did mrs. robert oswald advise you voluntarily that she had received this postcard from lee harvey oswald or did this come up when you stopped by? that is at the bottom of page . mr. fain. yes; i believe she volunteered that. she had said or i might have asked her if she had any word from lee. i don't recall now just how the conversation came up, but she said she had received a postal card from him on or about may , and it had been dated april . mr. stern. when did you finally learn that he had arrived in fort worth, mr. fain? mr. fain. let's see, that was on, it must have been, the morning of the th, june . mr. stern. how did you learn this information? mr. fain. they hadn't let me know, and i began to think it was time for checking on this thing. mr. stern. and by "they" you mean---- mr. fain. robert had not let me know, and mrs. oswald had not let me know, so i thought i had better make an independent check, and so i inquired of them, and she told me that he and his wife and child had arrived in fort worth on june , and i asked her, "why hadn't you let me know about it?" and she said, "well, actually the whole family had been so harassed and that he just didn't feel like letting his face be shown outside of the house." in other words, he was afraid that the newspapers would come and harass him again, i guess. mr. stern. were there newspaper stories about his arrival, do you recall? mr. fain. there were some that appeared in the paper which i have set out on page and page . yes; i refer to them on page where they report his having gone to russia. mr. stern. had these come to your attention before june ? mr. fain. yes, sir; yes, sir. i kept up with these and was careful to clip them and put them in the file. mr. stern. so that is it true that you knew before june that he had returned? mr. fain. no; i didn't know until that morning. i had no way of knowing that. there were some verifying communications which i set out on page showing when he actually came in; page , you will notice, shows a check of records again back here showing when he actually left over there and when he arrived here. he arrived in new york city june and then took a plane to dallas, where he arrived on the th. mr. stern. yes; i thought i had understood you to say that the newspapers reflected his arrival in fort worth. mr. fain. no; they were over there on pages and . june , , in the fort worth star telegram, daily newspaper of fort worth, there appeared a photograph of the subject, lee oswald, and the headline "ex-marine reported on way back from russia." mr. stern. but there was no news story actually reporting his arrival? mr. fain. no; he was staying in, apparently that was the reason, i guess he didn't want to get out because he was afraid he would be harassed by the neighbors or somebody and, at least, that is what mrs. oswald said. he just---- mr. stern. the harassment by newspaper reporters you referred to, probably did not mean reporters at the time of his arrival in fort worth. mr. fain. well, she was--i suppose she indicated or she said that he just hadn't gotten out of the house. in other words, he came in there on the th and apparently, according to her story, he didn't show his face outside that house. mr. stern. then what did you do when you learned he had arrived? mr. fain. well, i told her i would like to talk to him, he was there, and i made arrangements for him to come to the office and he said he could make it by o'clock. i requested b. tom carter, my senior agent, to assist if he would me in interviewing oswald, who came in about minutes before . he came in the office like he said he would, and we talked to him on june , . mr. stern. before you interview any subject, mr. fain, do you have a practice of giving him any cautionary statement, any warning? mr. fain. it was always my policy, and i am sure i did in this case, to tell them this substantially, that, "you don't have to furnish us any information. any information you furnish can be used against you in court, and you have a right to consult with an attorney before giving us any information or statements." mr. stern. can you actually recall that you said this to oswald? mr. fain. i don't recall specifically, but i know it was my religious practice to do it because we are always instructed to do that. mr. stern. fine. was the interview with mr. oswald recorded mechanically in any way? mr. fain. it was not. mr. stern. how did you record what he was telling you, in your usual fashion? mr. fain. i was sitting behind the desk. he came up and sat down in front of the desk, and mr. carter was sitting to my left. we explained to him, we wanted to talk to him. i took the notes, and from my notes i dictated this, which we call an fd- . mr. stern. this is your memorandum and not agent carter's? mr. fain. that is right; i was more familiar with the case. i took the notes and did the dictation. mr. stern. and the dictation was when? mr. fain. july , ; transcribed july , . mr. stern. these dates appear where? mr. fain. the date of dictation is shown on the lower right-hand corner; date of interview at the left, and date of transcription or typing was on july , upper right-hand corner. mr. stern. what was lee harvey oswald's demeanor in the course of this interview? mr. fain. he was tense, kind of drawn up, and rigid. he is a wiry little fellow, kind of waspy. mr. stern. did he answer all of your questions? mr. fain. no; he didn't. as indicated there in the fourth paragraph, he was a little insolent in his answers. he was the type of individual who apparently doesn't want to give out information about himself, and we asked him why he had made this trip to russia, and he looked like it got under his skin, and i noticed he got white around the lips and tensed up, and i understood it to be a show of a temper, and in a show of temper he stated he did not care to relive the past. he didn't want to go into that at all. we asked him, i think i asked him, in various ways, three or four times, trying to ascertain just what the situation was, and he finally stated, that soviet officials had asked him upon his arrival why he had come to russia, and he told us, "i came because i wanted to." that is what he said he told the soviet people, "i came because i wanted to," and he said, he told them, "i came over here to see the country." that is the kind of answers he gave. mr. stern. do you remember any other details of this interview that you haven't set forth here? i can't stress too greatly that we are interested in any detail, any fragment of this interview that you recall that isn't set forth here, any elaboration you want to make. mr. fain. no---- mr. stern. why don't you read it through carefully now and, as you go through, add to it in any way that you wish to, tell us anything else that you remember, any small detail that occurs to you. i don't mean read it out loud, read it to yourself. mr. fain. i see. our primary objective at this time was to ascertain whether or not the soviets had demanded anything of him in letting him get out of the country and permitting his wife to come along with him, and you will notice down there in paragraph ---- mr. stern. page . mr. fain. excuse me, page , paragraph of page , he stated that the soviets made it very difficult for him to obtain permission for his wife to leave russia, and that the process of obtaining permission for her to leave was a long, difficult course requiring much paper work. but he was just referring there to the length of time, and he denied that they had attempted to get anything from him or demand anything from him; and he denied that they had ever sought information from him of detriment to our country. i don't recall anything, anything in addition to what is set out here. mr. mccloy. no suggestion that he was a secret agent? mr. fain. no, sir. mr. mccloy. he had made no such suggestion to you as to that? mr. fain. no, sir. mr. mccloy. did you ever have any suspicion that he might have been? mr. fain. that he may have been rewarded by the russians and asked to do something or certain things about him? well, an fbi agent is naturally suspicious, of course, of anything like that. of course, he denied it. he denied that they demanded anything of him. mr. mccloy. and you never had any indication that he was a secret agent of any other country? mr. fain. no, no. mr. mccloy. including the united states? mr. fain. you mean that he might have gone over there and seek out information for us? mr. mccloy. yes. mr. fain. no, sir; no, sir; nothing like that. representative ford. at the time you had this interview with oswald, did you have the information, for example, that appears on the first page of commission no. under the heading "details"? mr. fain. this information there was furnished by the office of naval intelligence. i didn't check the records on that. that came in by communication. does that answer the question, mr. ford? representative ford. what i was inquiring about was did you have this information available to you at the time you interviewed him on july or ---- mr. stern. june . representative ford. june ? mr. fain. june ; yes, sir. i am sure i did, because that is on march . i read they had sent it. representative ford. in other words, you undoubtedly had---- mr. fain. i had access to anything in our files there pertaining to this case. representative ford. you had information. for example, you were familiar with the statement in a report that, and i quote, "subject allegedly told the embassy he had advised unnamed soviet officials that as a former marine radar operator he would make available to them information about his marine corps specialty when he became a soviet citizen." mr. fain. yes, sir; that was an allegation that was made over there. as i recall that was obtained in a check at the embassy, united states embassy. (at this point in the proceedings, mr. dulles enters the hearing room.) representative ford. did you make any inquiry as to whether or not that was an accurate statement alleged to have been made by him to an embassy official? mr. fain. mr. carter and i asked him, all about those things. of course, he denied it. representative ford. did he make any specific denial of that, as you recall? mr. fain. yes; we asked him if he had been asked about anything concerning his specialty while in the marine corps and i think he said no, that he had not. representative ford. what confuses me is, one, that he denied this to you, but then he apparently at some prior time had told the embassy that he had advised unnamed soviet officials that as a former marine radar operator he would make available to them information about his marine corps specialty when he became a soviet citizen. mr. fain. yes, sir; we were aware of that, that statement. he denied it, and he also denied that he had ever denounced his united states citizenship, and he denied to mr. carter and me that he had ever applied for soviet citizenship specifically. mr. stern. was it your practice, mr. fain, to review the files on a subject before you interviewed him? mr. fain. yes, sir. mr. stern. can you recall whether you did that in this case? mr. fain. i certainly did, yes, sir; there were so many details and so many allegations you had to study it long hours to get the thing further in mind. mr. stern. but you think you did that before you interviewed oswald? mr. fain. yes, sir. mr. stern. in view of the purpose of the investigation, the interest that you had, what was your overall evaluation of oswald as a result of this interview? mr. fain. well, that was--of course, that would be calling for my opinion, and we are interested only in getting facts on this case, facts, and all i could say is that he seemed tense. mr. dulles. he seemed tense? mr. fain. tense, yes, sir; and drawn up. i don't know whether he was just scared or what his situation was, but he was--he exhibited an arrogant attitude, arrogant, cold, and inclined to be just a little insolent. mr. stern. when he did tell you something would you tend to believe that he was telling you the truth or not? did you form an impression of his veracity? mr. fain. well the information we had was that he had applied to renounce his citizenship, and he had applied for soviet citizenship, and yet he denied that. it was just a flat denial and i had no way of knowing whether he was telling the truth or not. it is a thing that you cannot always tell. we got answers from him as set out here. he would give you some kind of answer. mr. stern. who was your immediate superior on a case like this, not his name, but describe his function. mr. fain. he was on the desk in dallas, and all of these investigations, all of my work, went across his desk. he would make the assignments also. mr. stern. tell the commission what you mean by "the desk," please. mr. fain. the supervisory desk in the dallas office that handled security-type matters, and this report would go across his desk, and the assignments that would come to me would be made by him. mr. stern. did you discuss the oswald case with your desk supervisor at this time, upon the completion of this interview? mr. fain. i don't recall specifically talking to him at this time. if i had been over there in the next few days i imagine i would have talked to him or did talk to him. you see, i was in fort worth. mr. stern. yes. mr. fain. and normally i would dictate my reports, and they would go by mail to dallas and, of course, we were in telephonic contact, any time anything came up of any problem nature. mr. stern. would you have discussed the case with your supervisor if you thought that there was a particular and immediate problem? mr. fain. oh, certainly; yes, sir. mr. stern. did you think that there was a particular and immediate problem following your interview? mr. fain. well, i didn't feel satisfied because of his answers there as to why he went to russia. he was evasive, and that was the reason i set out a lead to have him reinterviewed. mr. stern. what do you mean by that, mr. fain? mr. fain. to talk to him again. you see, at this time he had just come to town and he was out there at his brother's place. he had a wife and a little -month-old baby that he had brought from russia, and he didn't have any established place to live, and i can see how the newspapers may have harrassed him, and it might have been, very likely was, that he didn't want to show himself out of the house, but i felt under the circumstances he ought to be talked to again, he ought to be interviewed in detail about these same things and, consequently, i did set out a lead. mr. stern. what does that mean in terms of your procedures? mr. fain. in my report i just suggested that he be reinterviewed. mr. stern. is that in this report? mr. fain. that might have been my transmittal--no, it doesn't show here. it is probably on the transmittal to the chief of the dallas office. mr. stern. a recommendation that he be---- mr. fain. a recommendation, yes, that he be reinterviewed because i wasn't thoroughly satisfied with some of the answers he gave. mr. dulles. i wonder, mr. chairman, whether we should not have that transmittal letter; it seems to be pertinent to the case. representative ford. i think it would be helpful in light of the testimony, mr. fain. mr. fain. it was a lead sheet, what we call a lead, and i recall that on that i suggested that the records of immigration and naturalization service be checked and incorporated, and also that he be reinterviewed. those were the two things i remember specifically having put in the report. representative ford. that would be a cover to commission no. ? mr. fain. a lead sheet; yes, sir. mr. stern. we are going to have the testimony, gentlemen, of mr. alan belmont, the third-ranking official of the bureau, who can testify from an overall bureau viewpoint on the way this case was handled and be able to respond to questions of that sort, what was in the internal memoranda, transmittal documents, and things of that sort. mr. dulles. that is satisfactory. mr. stern. anything else at all, mr. fain, that you can tell us about this interview that we haven't covered already? mr. fain. no, sir; i put it all on this . mr. stern. mr. chairman, may we have admitted commission exhibit for identification? representative ford. it will be so admitted. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification and received in evidence.) mr. stern. mr. fain, i show you a report marked commission no. for identification, an eight-page report dated august , . can you identify this report? mr. dulles. off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. fain. yes, sir; this is my report of august , . it is a closing report, a report that records the result of an investigation pursuant to the lead i set out in this other report, referring to the reinterviewing. mr. stern. this followed your other report by some weeks? mr. fain. yes. i talked to him the last time june , , and this interview was conducted august , . mr. stern. and the early report was dated july , . mr. mccloy. july , . mr. fain. yes, sir; and this report august . mr. stern. august . mr. fain. yes, sir. mr. stern. have you reviewed this report recently, mr. fain? mr. fain. i have. mr. stern. in preparation for your testimony today? mr. fain. i have. mr. stern. is there any statement in it you would like to correct? mr. fain. no, sir. mr. stern. any information you would like to add to the data that are set forth? mr. fain. no, sir. mr. stern. what was the occasion for the investigative work reported in this document, mr. fain? mr. fain. you will recall that i had set out a lead to reinterview him. i felt that he had just gotten back, from russia on the previous interview, and that he might have been upset naturally, and a reinterview might be more productive. he might feel now settled down, so i set about to locate him and to talk to him again. mr. stern. how did you locate him, mr. fain? mr. fain. on august i contacted robert again, robert l. oswald, the older brother, at davenport, and he told me that lee harvey had moved, that he didn't have his house number, but he was on mercedes street, west of montgomery ward & co., just off seventh street. mr. stern. in fort worth? mr. fain. yes, sir; in fort worth. and then i went there. he gave me the name of the street, and i went there and made some inquiries, and finally ascertained from an adjoining neighbor, just east of lee's house--these were little duplex apartments--and she told me, yes, there is a mr. oswald who just moved in next door a few days ago. then on august---- mr. dulles. could i ask, did she seem to know him at all well? mr. fain. no; she didn't, she hadn't met them, but she just said some people had moved in, and that was enough for me. robert had told me, had indicated pretty much where it was, and the fact is he gave me pretty good directions as to where to go. as a matter of fact, he had been down there himself in the apartment apparently, but he just didn't have the house number. mr. stern. what did you do after you located the house, mr. fain? mr. fain. after i located the house on the th, and i made arrangements to have another agent and i go out there and reinterview him. i didn't want to go to his house. i didn't want to contact his wife. i knew from the background we had conducted that she could not speak english. she could speak russian only, and i didn't know any russian, so it wouldn't have been any point in my contacting her and upsetting her. so this agent and i in an automobile took up a surveillance at the end of the street out of sight of the house and away from the house, and waited until he came from work. we observed him toward the end of the day, and i suppose it must have been around : , something like that, in the late afternoon, walking down the street, and we then moved up in front of his house. of course, i knew him and he knew me from a previous interview, and i spoke to him, "hi, lee. how are you?" i said, "would you mind talking with us just a few minutes?" so he got in the back seat. i remained in the front seat. arnold j. brown, the other agent, was in the back seat with him, and we talked with him there, and the results of the interview are set out here on page . mr. stern. was it your normal practice to conduct an interview in teams? mr. fain. yes, sir. mr. stern. this interview you conducted with agent brown, and your previous interview you conducted with agent carter, i believe? mr. fain. yes, sir; agent carter was with me on the first one, and arnold brown was on the second one. mr. stern. why is that, mr. fain? mr. fain. well, in case something comes up in these important interview cases which might have some evidentiary value, we like to have two agents present. mr. stern. is your general rule always to have two agents when you interview any subject? mr. fain. subject, particularly if it is something other than routine; yes, sir. mr. stern. this, as far as you were concerned, was something other than routine? mr. fain. in internal security cases, in a case of this magnitude and this importance, we would always have two agents present. mr. stern. when you say a case of this magnitude and a case of this importance, what do you have in mind? mr. fain. well, this man had been to russia, and we wanted to try to find out whether he had been recruited by the russians to do a job against the united states. mr. stern. so this, in relation to your other cases, was an important case? mr. fain. it was important. mr. dulles. do you often conduct interviews in a car or was this rather unusual? mr. fain. we felt that in this case we could get his cooperation better if we could show to him that we weren't trying to embarrass him. i explained to him that afternoon, "we didn't contact you at your place of employment; we didn't want to embarrass you before your employer," and didn't want to upset his wife and, therefore, i hadn't bothered his wife, and we just felt if we talked to him there in the car informally, he would better cooperate with us. mr. dulles. it wasn't because he showed reluctance to have you go in the house or didn't invite you or anything of that kind? mr. fain. oh, no; no. actually he invited us in when we stopped him. he said, "won't you come in the house?" and i said, "well, we will just talk here. we will be alone to ourselves and we will be informal, and just fine." so he got in the car with agent brown. mr. mccloy. was he actually less truculent than he had been before? mr. fain. yes; he had actually settled down. he had gotten a job at leslie machine shop, and he wasn't as tense. he seemed to talk more freely with us. mr. mccloy. he indicated that he had been or his wife had been in constant communication with the soviet embassy here? mr. fain. well, he told me on the previous interview that he would have to get in touch with the russian embassy and let them know that his wife was in this country, and to let them know his address, and i asked him if he had done that, and he said he had in this second interview. he said he would have to contact them. the way he termed it, his phraseology was, that the soviet law was that a person in her position coming over here, a citizen from russia, must notify the soviet embassy of her current address, and he said that should be done periodically. mr. stern. did you discuss his discharge from the marine corps? mr. fain. we actually went over substantially everything we had asked him before. mr. stern. did he seem concerned about that? mr. fain. the fact that he had been given the unfavorable discharge? i believe now, i don't recall just exactly whether i asked him right at that time whether there had been any disposition of that, and maybe i did. mr. stern. the third paragraph on page refers to that, and i just wondered if you could say more about it. mr. fain. yes; he just advised about the matter of having been given an undesirable discharge had not been reviewed. we did ask him that because he brought it up and mentioned it before. mr. stern. did he seem---- mr. fain. he didn't know when it would be heard at that time. he said he didn't know when it would be heard. mr. stern. did he seem angry about it, the status? mr. fain. no; just answered it and didn't seem ruffled. mr. stern. at any point in the course of the interview did he display anger or irritation? mr. fain. the only point he did, was when we asked him again why he went to the soviet union in the first place, and i didn't like his answer there. that is set out on the bottom of page . he still declined to answer questions as to why he went to the soviet union in the first instance. he said he considered it nobody's business why he wanted to go to the soviet union. finally he stated he went over to russia for his own personal reasons. he said it was a personal matter to him. he said, "i went and i came back." he said "it was something that i did." so he just bowed his neck and apparently wasn't going to tell anything further at all on that point. mr. dulles. could i ask a question? on the bottom of the earlier page, page , where it stated that oswald was interviewed when he first arrived at the soviet union, and he stated he was interviewed when he was about to leave by representatives of the mvd, he was quite clear about the mvd and not the kgb? mr. fain. that is right; he indicated the mvd. mr. dulles. and he clearly said mvd? mr. fain. yes, sir; he described it as being--handling criminal matters among the population generally, is the way he described it. mr. dulles. that might be. that is really the ministry of the interior, and the kgb is the secret security services, which has been sometimes controlling and sometimes has been under the ministry of the interior. mr. fain. yes, sir; he indicated to us just the ordinary way. in other words, i gathered from him that the police interviewed him when he came in, and also he said the police interviewed him when he left. but he said he made no deals with them or with any intelligence agents of the soviet system. representative ford. on page , mr. fain, are written two words. one is "texas," is that, and another is "noloc."' mr. fain. i have no knowledge of who put that on or how that came there. i guess that looks like maybe "texas" up there at the top. representative ford. would the second be "no location." is that an abbreviation for that? mr. fain. that probably has reference to somebody's notation. it may have been on the desk over there; no location for the uncle, no city stated for his location. representative ford. would that be something added by someone other than yourself? mr. fain. yes, sir; i did not make that notation. i have no knowledge as to who did. it was made in dallas. mr. stern. mr. fain, apart from the question of why he went to the soviet union in the first place, was he reluctant to answer any other questions that you put to him? mr. fain. as i recall it, he answered the other questions fairly readily, and he appeared to be a lot more relaxed than he was the first time. mr. stern. throughout the interview? mr. fain. with the exception of this, he kind of bowed up there, and said, it was a personal matter as to why he went over there. he said he came and he went back. just a little bit insolent. he said it was nobody's business. mr. stern. how long did this interview last, mr. fain? mr. fain. i don't recall exactly, but i expect we talked to him about an hour, maybe an hour and minutes, something like that. mr. stern. how does that compare with the length of time of your first interview with him in your office? mr. fain. as i recall, the first interview, and again i don't recall it exactly, but i was of the opinion we talked to him for maybe an hour and a half, and maybe hours. it was close to hours because we couldn't cover all the questions in a lesser period of time. we approached the things in different ways and from different angles, and to see if he wouldn't give us the information. mr. stern. would you read over these three pages of your memorandum of the interview, pages , , and of the report, and see if there is anything you would like to add or clarify, any detail that occurs to you now that you didn't cover there, any flavor or color of the interview that you wouldn't ordinarily put in your report that you can tell us about? mr. fain. all right, sir; it is in there. it is indicated in the last paragraph. mr. stern. on what page? mr. fain. page . really there is no point in repeating, but he did play down during the entire interview--he seemed to be just a little bit derisive of our questions, and hesitated to bring out whether or not the soviet intelligence officials might have been interested in him or might have contacted him, and he downgraded or played that down. he just didn't think he was that important; in other words, that they would want to contact him. mr. dulles. how was he on that point, was he strong on that point, did he press that point? mr. fain. no; there wasn't anything remarkable about that different from the other. he saw no reason why the soviets would want to contact him. he didn't feel like he was of any importance to them. he said that he would cooperate with us and report to us any information that would come to his attention. mr. dulles. on the bottom of--excuse me. mr. fain. that is all right; i was through. mr. dulles. on the bottom of page of your report, page of the exhibit, it is indicated that this report was made by special agent arnold j. brown and by you. do you recall who dictated the report? mr. fain. i did. mr. dulles. and was it concurred in by special agent arnold j. brown? mr. fain. yes, sir. mr. dulles. he saw it? mr. fain. yes, sir. mr. dulles. he concurred in it? mr. fain. yes, sir; he saw the dictated, the finished document and initialed it. representative ford. what kind of covering letter did you send with this to the dallas office, if any? mr. fain. there would be none because this is closed. in other words, there didn't seem to be any evidence that he had a potential for violence or anything like that, and we just closed the case, and this went over there very likely without any transmittal. mr. dulles. where is there an indication here that the case was closed? mr. fain. "c." this letter "c" under the synopsis is a symbol we use just to save typing time, it stands for closed. representative ford. who makes that determination? mr. fain. as to whether the ease would be closed or not? representative ford. yes. mr. fain. it was my determination and my recommendation it be closed. of course, the report goes to the supervisor's desk in the dallas office, and if he concurs he lets it go on through, and if he declines he would send it back for additional investigation or other action, whatever he deemed appropriate. mr. dulles. was there a written recommendation that this case be closed other than this? mr. fain. no; other than this, no. mr. dulles. that "c" is all? mr. fain. yes. representative ford. is that "c" put on by you? mr. fain. yes, sir; in my dictation. representative ford. in your dictation? mr. fain. yes, sir; to show the case closed. mr. dulles. did you get any approval or disapproval of that, or, if it is not disapproved, you consider it conclusive? mr. fain. well, if it is going to be disapproved, i would hear probably the third day, or if he wanted to get on the telephone and call me to do something additional that he thought ought to be done, then i would be told to do some additional work on it. representative ford. what is the significance of the third day? is this the usual time or what? mr. fain. no; i was just thinking about the mail time. you get a communication out, for instance, if i mailed this report it would get there the next day, and they would review it and then they would mail it out and i would get it the third day. representative ford. just the communication time. mr. fain. that is right; that is right. mr. dulles. did you get any comment back at all on this report from headquarters? mr. fain. no; i did not. mr. stern. would you elaborate, mr. fain, about your conclusions on this case and your evaluation of oswald the man as of the time of your second interview. what led you to your recommendation? mr. fain. an evaluation as to what? mr. stern. from the viewpoint of the investigation you were conducting. you told us how you felt about him on the first interview, and you felt a further interview would be necessary. mr. fain. well, i felt in the second interview he was more relaxed, and i felt he answered the questions more readily and with less evasion. however, he still didn't seem to want to go into the reasons why he went over there in the first place, and why he wouldn't do it. evidently he had his own reasons for giving those answers. i don't know whether he just wanted to be--maybe he was just inherently insolent, and that is just typical of his personality is all i could figure out. mr. stern. will you tell us again the purpose of your investigation, what you were after. mr. fain. the purpose of this investigation was to determine whether or not he had been contacted by the soviet intelligence agencies, whether he had been given an assignment or not, whether they had made any deal with him, and whether, as a demand, for permitting his wife to accompany him--you see, for a long time, they told him he couldn't take her apparently, and there was quite a period that he was waiting to get her, and he refused to come back to the united states unless his wife came back with him. we wanted to find out whether or not the soviets had demanded anything of him in return for letting her come on over. mr. stern. as to that, had you formed a conclusion, after the second interview? mr. fain. as to--on that point? mr. stern. yes. mr. fain. well he answered it and said, "no." he played it down all the way through. in other words, that was the main purpose we were talking to him, was to try to ascertain that point. he downgraded it all the way through, and belittled himself. he said, "i was not that important." mr. stern. was your recommendation that this case be closed, a recommendation that indicates that you had reached a conclusion on the question of your investigation? mr. fain. yes, sir; even though he was arrogant and cold, from his answers, i couldn't see any potential for danger or violence at that point. mr. dulles. did special agent arnold j. brown concur in your decision with regard to marking the case "c," closed? mr. fain. yes, sir; i remarked to him we were just going to close it, and he saw the finished report and initialed the report. mr. dulles. he saw that conclusion and concurred in it? mr. fain. yes, sir. mr. stern. in terms of your fbi procedures, what is the difference between marking a case closed or marking it pending? mr. fain. well, if it is a pending case, there is additional work to be done on it. mr. stern. specific additional work? mr. fain. yes, sir; specific leads to be done on the case. mr. stern. and closed means that there are no such specific leads, is that right? mr. fain. yes, sir; that is right; it is closed. mr. stern. but does that mean that the case is in dead storage somewhere? mr. fain. not forever; no. if there is any reason for reopening it, it could be reopened the next day if necessary or the next days or any time. but this assignment had been completed. he had been interviewed. that was the purpose of this contact, to interview him, and set forth the results of re-interview, and that was all that was to be done. mr. stern. are cases frequently reopened? mr. fain. cases are reopened constantly. if there is any reason for reopening it, it certainly would be reopened. mr. stern. is it fair to say then that in this kind of situation, "closed" is really a shorthand for "no further work to be done at this time"? mr. fain. correct, correct. mr. dulles. off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. mccloy. what is the date of this last report here? mr. fain. the date of this was august , . mr. mccloy. august , . mr. stern. mr. fain, do you recall discussing lee harvey oswald with his brother robert oswald about this time? mr. fain. discussing his brother with him? mr. stern. did you ever talk to robert oswald about any of your conclusions regarding lee harvey oswald? mr. fain. certainly not. i contacted him on august , but that was for the purpose of locating his brother for interview. mr. stern. is it possible that you might have said to him at some point, "i have interviewed your brother and i don't think he presents a problem," or "i do"? i don't suppose you would say that. mr. fain. positively not. i never made that statement to him at any time. mr. stern. this would be contrary to your operations? mr. fain. that would call for a conclusion, and we wouldn't discuss a matter like that with anyone, especially a relative. mr. stern. with any unofficial person? mr. fain. official--that is right. of course with my supervisor and some official who is entitled to it, but i certainly did not talk to robert oswald about anything like that. mr. stern. do you have any indication from your interviews with lee harvey oswald or from anything else you knew about him, from your investigation, that he was dangerous or potentially violent? mr. fain. no, sir; no, sir; if there had been any indication that he was potentially dangerous or violent or had a potential for violence, we certainly wouldn't have closed it. mr. mccloy. you felt he constituted no security risk to the united states? mr. fain. well, we couldn't prove that he was a member of the communist party in fort worth; had no report that he was a member of the party. mr. mccloy. quite apart from the party, from party membership, was it your conclusion that he was--he did not constitute a security risk? mr. fain. i couldn't see any potential for violence. mr. mccloy. i am not talking about potential for violence. i am talking about security risk. you know what i mean by that. you are an experienced security officer. mr. fain. well, i am suspicious of any communist, obviously, and i think any communist is a threat because i think they are atheistic, materialistic; i don't think they know what the truth is, and from that standpoint i would think he is--but he wasn't, we couldn't say. the checks we made were to the effect that he was not a communist, was not a member of the communist party. mr. mccloy. was not a member of the communist party. mr. fain. but he went to russia. of course, we couldn't get him to tell us why he went. we tried on two occasions. he said it was personal with him. he wanted to go over there the first time, and in that first interview he said, "i don't care to relive the past." mr. mccloy. i understand that. but if you had doubts about his security, about his loyalty to the united states, or put it the other way, or if you think he might have been a security risk to the united states, should you have closed this case? mr. fain. yes, sir; we would have closed it because there was no reason to keep it open. we had the information. we reinterviewed him, no potential for violence appearing. mr. mccloy. that isn't the test, is it, whether he can be capable of intrigue or he can be capable of espionage without violence. he could be a security risk without violence, couldn't he? mr. fain. well, that might be, of course. of course--if we knew then what did happen, was going to happen, we certainly wouldn't---- mr. mccloy. i am not talking about hindsight. i am talking about as of that time whether in your judgment this man was no longer, in your judgment, to be considered as a security risk to the united states. i am not trying to place any blame or criticism here. i am just trying to get the state of your mind as of the date of that report, whether that included your belief that he was not a security risk. mr. fain. well, we like to let our reports stand for themselves, in other words on the situation, the answers given. in answer to your question, i would have been rather satisfied if he would have told me why he went over there and if he weren't so evasive. mr. mccloy. you got an impression he was evasive and he was not telling you the truth? mr. fain. well, he was inclined to be haughty and arrogant, and even though he was insolent, and that could have been, of course, a part of his personality makeup, that type of individual. mr. mccloy. let me ask you this: if you had felt in spite of his answers that he was a security risk, would it have been incumbent upon you to report to your superiors that he was, and that you thought he ought to be continued under surveillance? mr. fain. yes, sir; if he would have met the qualifications we considered that he had been a security risk, and had a potential for any violence or dangerousness, why, we certainly would have stayed on him. mr. dulles. and you would not have marked the report as closed, the case as closed. mr. fain. well, i closed it because my investigation was completed. the assignment was to interview him and the case at the end of the interview with the information we obtained the case was closed. the man had found a job, he was working, he was living in this duplex with his wife, and he was not a member of the communist party. of course, it was true he had been to russia. he denied any contacts with a soviet intelligence agent. he denied that he had any contacts. we considered all the facts and circumstances and closed the case, and that is what i did. mr. mccloy. if you had not come to that, would you have put in another lead for another interview? mr. fain. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. would it have been incumbent upon you to recommend to your superiors that he be continued under surveillance? mr. fain. i could have recommended that he be reinterviewed but i frankly didn't see any point in doing that. mr. mccloy. i understand that. but assuming you did find some derogatory information, or some facts that made you fear that he was a security risk beyond a recommendation for further interviews, what would be your province to do? would it be your province to recommend surveillance? mr. fain. yes, sir; if there had been some facts there to indicate that he was---- mr. mccloy. a potential danger? mr. fain. a potential danger to the security of the united states, and for instance if we had found that he was a member of the communist party and meeting with them, made some contact with them, i certainly would have stayed right on it. mr. mccloy. you would have recommended that he be kept under surveillance then? mr. fain. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. that is all i am getting at. representative ford. are you through, john? mr. mccloy. yes. representative ford. on the top page of commission exhibit it says, and i quote, "oswald and wife unknown to confidential informant." did you make that check? mr. fain. i did. i checked with the confidential security informants that we had there, and they said this man was not known to be a member of the party, and the party had not discussed him for membership purposes or anything like that. representative ford. do you have in this area, or did you have at that time in this area reliable confidential informants? mr. fain. yes, sir; yes, sir. excellent informants. representative ford. during your experience in fort worth or otherwise, did you ever have a case similar to the oswald case, a defector who had returned to the united states? mr. fain. no, sir. representative ford. this was your only one? mr. fain. i had read in the newspapers about them occurring in various areas in the united states but this was the first one i had handled. representative ford. this was the only one of a similar nature that you handled? mr. fain. i believe there were some cases back there too. we did handle one or two of those where the man in the service had made some kind of a remark, and we had interviewed him when he returned. i remember two or three of those cases when he returned to this country. we contacted him to ascertain what his employment was, what his status was, what his present residence was, what his present attitude was, and whether or not he would report to us if he were contacted under auspicious circumstances abroad or otherwise. we worked on several of those, that type of case. representative ford. your contacts with these confidential informants, were they prior to or subsequent to this interview with oswald? mr. fain. this was subsequent. this was the day following. i had also previously interviewed them. representative ford. i think there was a somewhat similar statement in one of your other reports. mr. fain. i believe in the other report, yes, sir. (at this point, chief justice warren entered the hearing room) mr. dulles. do you recall any other instances where you have marked a case closed where headquarters has come back and suggested that it not be closed and that further investigation be made? mr. fain. right now, i can't specifically recall any instances, but it has been done, and if the supervisor felt additional work should be done we would have no hesitancy in doing it. mr. stern. mr. fain, your recommendation about closing a case is checked by how many supervisors that you know? mr. fain. one on the security desk there before it goes on here to the seat of government. mr. stern. this is one on the security desk in dallas? mr. fain. yes, sir. mr. stern. then what happens? mr. fain. then the report goes on into washington here, to the fbi. mr. stern. as far as you know is it checked again here? mr. fain. oh, yes. mr. stern. and by whom or by what kind of official? mr. fain. well, they have a desk up here that has that function, too, you see. i don't know just, mr. belmont can probably answer that better than i can because i am not familiar at all with the workings of it up here. but i know they are rigidly checked and rechecked. mr. stern. now, at the time you filed this report, in view of the fact that you didn't see, as you testified, any further work to be done at this time---- mr. fain. that is right. mr. stern. could you have put the case in any other status besides "closed"? is there any other administrative procedure that might have been available to you under the circumstances where you had nothing further, no further work to recommend at the time? mr. fain. any other status? i could have put it, of course, in a pending status and set out some leads. mr. stern. no, no; assuming you didn't see any further work to be done, any further leads at that time, under your administrative practices? mr. fain. no; if the work has been completed, we put the recommendation that it be closed and as i say, of course, that is no ironbound thing, to keep it from being reopened. it can be reopened any time, any of these security cases, the very next day, if necessary or the next days or the next month, anything comes in on it or we get any specific reason for reopening it, it certainly is reopened. representative ford. a few minutes ago i asked you a question about checking with confidential informants. did this check involve only confidential informants in fort worth as far as the communist party was concerned, or would it have a broader check? mr. fain. these were the confidential informants available to me in fort worth only. representative ford. would there be a different set of informants in dallas? mr. fain. yes; they had informants, i suppose, one or two from the area there, but we certainly had two when i considered to be excellent right in fort worth and i am sure they had good access. representative ford. but would such a check of informants at fort worth necessarily mean there couldn't have been some relationship oswald had with the communist party in dallas, for example? mr. fain. well, these in fort worth are familiar with some of the activity in dallas, too. representative ford. there would be a connection between your informants in fort worth---- mr. fain. yes, sir. representative ford. and those that might exist in dallas? mr. fain. yes, sir. i contacted these on several occasions, on two occasions that i remember, and, i felt, if this man was a member of the communist party they would know about it. representative ford. when one of the secret service agents went down to dallas prior to the assassination in his preparation for the visit of the president he checked through informants in certain right-wing elements in dallas to see whether or not there was to be any violence at the time of the president's visit. there have been allegations to the effect that oswald was in some way connected with such alleged right-wing organizations. did you have any knowledge of that? mr. fain. no, sir; no, sir. representative ford. did you have any reason to check it? mr. fain. no; all the information that i had and as these reports will reflect, he was along the lines of marxist, communist, if anything, and i don't think you will find any indication that he was on the other. representative ford. you had no information that he was in any way whatsoever connected with the alleged right-wing organizations? mr. fain. that is right. that is right, i did not. mr. mccloy. did any secret service people get in contact with you prior to the visit of the president, or did you get in contact with them? mr. fain. no, sir. you see, i retired from the fbi october of . the president was down there november , of . mr. mccloy. i forgot. mr. dulles. that was how long, i didn't catch the date, how long before the assassination attempt? mr. fain. i retired october of , and the assassination---- mr. dulles. the year before, about? mr. fain. yes, sir. mr. dulles. a little over a year. mr. fain. the assassination occurred in november of , isn't that correct? representative ford. are you still living in the dallas-fort worth area? mr. fain. no, sir; i am at houston. i moved to houston and retired on the th and went to houston on november of . representative ford. what is your present occupation? mr. fain. i am office manager and in charge of accounts receivable for my brother who is an orthopedic surgeon in houston. representative ford. you no longer have any connection with the government? mr. fain. no, sir; i do not. the bureau has been mighty good to me. i have enjoyed my tenure of service. mr. stern. mr. fain, was there any procedure that you went through upon your retirement in turning over cases, cases you had worked on whether they were in closed status or pending cases? did you discuss the cases with an agent who was taking them over? mr. fain. yes, sir. mr. stern. was a closed case discussed in that fashion? mr. fain. yes, in general, in other words---- mr. stern. do you recall discussing the oswald case with another agent? mr. fain. not specifically, no; i do not. mr. stern. but you do think you would have in connection with the procedures you followed upon your retirement? mr. fain. maybe not. we might not, since this case was closed, i doubt very much that we discussed it. mr. stern. you have no recollection of it? mr. fain. at least i have no recollection of having discussed it with him. mr. stern. may we have this report, mr. chairman, which has been marked for identification , admitted? representative ford. it may be admitted. (the document referred to, previously marked as commission exhibit no. for identification, was received in evidence.) mr. stern. mr. fain, i show you a document, a letter from director hoover with attachments, which has been marked for identification commission no. . would you turn to the last two pages and can you tell us what the last two pages constitute? mr. fain. the last two pages constitute an affidavit which i gave to the houston office of the federal bureau of investigation. mr. stern. did you make it at the houston office? mr. fain. yes, sir. mr. stern. what was the occasion of your making this affidavit? mr. fain. i was contacted by mr. ed dalrymple, special agent of the fbi, and he explained to me that he would like to talk to me about this matter. he said he had had an inquiry concerning whether or not i had ever paid this man, lee oswald, any money for any information and he asked me if i would be willing to give an affidavit and i said i certainly would be glad to. i came down to the office and gave this affidavit to him on january , . mr. stern. is there anything you would like to add to this affidavit or any correction you would like to make in it at this time? mr. fain. no, sir; i do not. mr. stern. when you talk about an informant, does that term mean to you only someone who receives money for information? mr. fain. no, they have an informant that would furnish information without compensation. informant in the generally accepted term is anyone who would furnish information to the fbi. mr. stern. when you say no effort was made to recruit lee harvey oswald's services in any capacity on behalf of the fbi or any other government agency, you mean for compensation or otherwise? mr. fain. oh, yes. that was my understanding for the reason of this affidavit was whether or not i had ever paid him or offered to pay him any money, remuneration or compensation for any information and certainly there had been no effort to recruit him along that line at all and no payment had ever been made to him. mr. stern. would you consider then the same question but without the element of compensation: had you ever made any effort to recruit his services without compensation? mr. fain. well, we, of course, interviewed him a couple of times and asked him for information and told him that if he were ever contacted by any soviet individuals or under any suspicious circumstances to be sure and let us know about it. mr. stern. did you ever ask him to do anything more than that for you? mr. fain. no, sir. mr. stern. did you ever ask him to try to become a member of any group for you? mr. fain. no, sir; no, sir. mr. dulles. did he agree to supply the information? mr. fain. he promised to; yes, sir. mr. dulles. in case he should be approached? mr. fain. he said he would cooperate with us. mr. stern. the last paragraph of your affidavit describes his attitude as arrogant and hostile. did you say that on the basis of both interviews with him? mr. fain. predominantly as a result of the first, and frankly as i said a while ago, he was and continued to be evasive as to his reason for ever having gone over there, and i consider that uncooperative. mr. stern. but did you feel he was arrogant and hostile at the time of the second interview? mr. fain. not so much as he was the first. i would say he was more so, more arrogant and hostile at the first interview. mr. stern. if there are no other questions in this area, i have just one other point i would like to cover with mr. fain, and that is what were your instructions, mr. fain, as a special agent of the fbi, with regard to referring to the secret service information bearing upon the protection of the president, not in this case but as a general proposition? mr. fain. as a general proposition, if there was any information coming to our attention, express or implied, or any implication that the president might be in danger or anyone had made a threat of that character, we would always refer it to the secret service, that was made clear to us from the very beginning of my service. mr. stern. in your years of service as a special agent did you ever have any occasion to refer information to the secret service? mr. fain. i don't remember any specific instances but i am sure there have been a few occasions where i have turned over some information like that and i have run several investigations out as to who this individual was and as to what he was, and so forth. but any indication of, a threat or otherwise i would have contacted my supervisor--it happened at fort worth at that time we didn't have a representative of secret service, it was covered out of dallas, but if there had been anything like that, any indication of potential for violence or any threats i would have called my dallas office and they would have in turn advised the secret service. mr. stern. did you see any reason to refer lee harvey oswald to the secret service? mr. fain. no, sir; no, sir. i didn't see any potential for violence at that time; no, sir. mr. stern. did he ever mention the president or the presidency or---- mr. fain. no, sir. mr. stern. or any elected official to you? mr. fain. no, sir. mr. stern. governor connally? mr. fain. no, sir. mr. dulles. would the memoranda of these conversations be put in a file that was in any way special as to of doubtful character or suspicious character so that it might be referred to later under that category? mr. fain. they constantly review these, as i understand it, these matters. mr. dulles. who is "they"? mr. fain. the supervisory desk over there constantly is going over these matters, and if there is any--they check the files to see if anything has come in on it that would look like it ought to be reopened. mr. dulles. but there was no mark on this file to indicate that this was a case that might have some pending interest from the point of view of security? mr. fain. no, sir; not that i am aware of. mr. stern. is there anything you would like to add to anything you have told the commission this morning, mr. fain? mr. fain. i believe not. i don't recall anything additionally. mr. dulles. did you card all these files so that--and was there a card in your files under the name of lee harvey oswald? mr. fain. not in my files, but when it goes to dallas they index all those. mr. dulles. they do that in dallas? mr. fain. yes, sir; and the seat of government. mr. dulles. and there was a card on lee harvey oswald, a special card, in addition to a file in the office? mr. fain. i am sure there was, there might have been an index. mr. dulles. but you didn't know that yourself? mr. fain. no, sir; but we didn't maintain one in dallas--in fort worth. mr. stern. that is all. the chairman (presiding). well, mr. fain, thank you very much, sir, for your courtesy and your help to us. we appreciate it. sorry to disturb you in your retirement. (at this point senator cooper entered the hearing room.) (at this point representative ford left the hearing room.) testimony of john lester quigley the chairman. mr. quigley, this session of the commission is for the purpose of hearing the testimony of certain members of the fbi concerning interviews they had with lee oswald, and we understand that you had one with him. mr. quigley. yes, sir; i did. the chairman. and we want to have you discuss that with us. would you please rise and raise your right hand and be sworn. do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. quigley. i do, sir. the chairman. be seated, please. mr. stern will conduct the examination. mr. stern. would you state your full name for the record, mr. quigley? mr. quigley. john lester quigley. mr. stern. your address? mr. quigley. no. , cromwell place, new orleans, la. mr. stern. have you a law degree, mr. quigley? mr. quigley. i do, sir. mr. stern. from what institution? mr. quigley. columbus university, washington. mr. stern. are you a member of the bar? mr. quigley. no; i am not, sir. mr. stern. upon receiving your law degree, did you join the fbi? mr. quigley. i was in the fbi at the time i was going to law school. mr. stern. and when did you join the fbi? mr. quigley. july , . mr. stern. and you have been a member of the fbi since then? mr. quigley. that is correct. mr. stern. to the present time. what was your assignment in ? mr. quigley. general assignment, investigative assignment. mr. stern. in what office? mr. quigley. new orleans division, at new orleans, la. mr. stern. how long had you been in the new orleans office? mr. quigley. since february of . mr. stern. mr. quigley, i show you a document which has been marked commission no. for identification. can you identify this document for us, please? mr. quigley. yes; i can identify it. this is the october , , investigative report of special agent milton r. kaack, who was at that time assigned to the new orleans division, with regard to lee harvey oswald. mr. stern. are you responsible for any portion of this report, mr. quigley? mr. quigley. yes; i am, sir. mr. stern. what portion? mr. quigley. i direct your attention to page of this report, pages through , which reflect the result of an interview which i had with lee harvey oswald on august , , at new orleans, la. mr. stern. are you responsible for any other portion of the report, mr. quigley? mr. quigley. i am confident i am not but may i just look at it for a moment. no, sir; i am not. mr. stern. can you identify the entire report from your official duties? mr. quigley. yes. i have seen this, a copy of this report, in our files at new orleans. mr. stern. have you reviewed this report recently in preparation for your testimony before the commission? mr. quigley. yes; i have. mr. stern. turning now to page of the report, can you tell us from this memorandum when you interviewed lee harvey oswald? mr. quigley. yes; i interviewed him at the first district station, new orleans police department, on august , . mr. stern. how did you come to interview mr. oswald? mr. quigley. lt. francis l. martello, platoon commander at the first district, new orleans police station, called our office and advised that he wished an agent to stop by there since there was a prisoner who desired to speak with an agent. as a result of this telephone call, i proceeded to the first district. mr. stern. did you receive the telephone call? mr. quigley. no, sir; i did not. mr. dulles. by agent, did he mean agent of the fbi? mr. quigley. yes, sir; yes, sir. mr. stern. you were assigned by someone in your office to take this assignment? mr. quigley. that is right. this was on a saturday, which we operate on a skeleton staff. we do not have a full staff on a saturday. mr. stern. were you accompanied by any other agent of the fbi in making this interview? mr. quigley. i was not. mr. stern. is that normal, under your procedures? mr. quigley. i would say yes. agents operate independently unless there is a specific reason for more than one agent to be present. mr. stern. as far as you knew here there was no such reason? mr. quigley. there was no reason. mr. stern. did you know whom you were going to interview, by name? mr. quigley. i did not, sir. mr. stern. just an individual who was---- mr. quigley. an individual, that is correct. mr. stern. had you any knowledge of an organization called fair play for cuba committee's activities in new orleans before this interview? mr. quigley. i had knowledge that there was such an organization in existence in the united states. i had no knowledge of any activities of such an organization in the city of new orleans, la. mr. stern. did you know of its existence in the united states as part of your official work? mr. quigley. overall knowledge of bureau operations; yes, sir. mr. stern. were you working on any particular investigation involving this committee at the time? mr. quigley. no, sir; i was not. mr. stern. will you tell us what occurred first when you came to the police station? mr. quigley. at the time i arrived at the police station, lieutenant martello directed me to the commanding officer's office, where there was laid out on the table a number of different pamphlets, throwaways, relating to the fair play for cuba committee, which he advised me had been removed by the new orleans police department from oswald the previous day, august , at the time of his arrest, for disturbing the peace on canal street. i reviewed, generally looked over, the material to see what it was. i was not familiar with any of this material. while i was doing this, he had not at this point identified who the individual was other than the person had been arrested the previous day; while i was looking over the material, the jailer brought in an individual who was then introduced to me by lieutenant martello as harvey lee oswald. i then identified myself by credentials to lee harvey oswald. mr. stern. you said harvey lee oswald. mr. quigley. i beg your pardon. mr. stern. you meant lee harvey oswald? mr. quigley. yes; lee harvey oswald. mr. stern. did his name mean anything to you at that time? mr. quigley. no, sir; it did not. mr. stern. in these documents that you were given to look at by the new orleans police was there a handwritten list of names, addresses, telephone numbers--anything of that sort. mr, quigley. no, sir; there was not. mr. stern. have you subsequently learned of such a list in connection with your duties? mr. quigley. yes; i have. mr. stern. have you been told why that list wasn't furnished to you at the time of your interview? mr. quigley. yes; i have. on november , , i went to the first district station in new orleans police department to confer with lieutenant martello. at this time he informed me that on november , , a representative of the secret service had contacted him about o'clock in the morning, told him that he was conducting an official investigation with regard to the assassination of the president, and desired to talk to him. arrangements were made the following or that same day, to meet at the first district station. at approximately o'clock the secret service representative met there. at this time, lieutenant martello went to his files, removed from the files the evidence that had been taken from oswald on august , . in going through these documents, he noted this piece of paper that had what appeared to him to be foreign writing, he felt that it probably was russian but he did not know. he turned this over to the secret service. he related to me that at the time he had questioned oswald on august , , prior to the time that he had called the fbi office, that he had gone through items in oswald's wallet, which is a normal procedure for the police to do, for background identification, and so forth, and among the items in his wallet was this piece of paper, and in the discussion that pursued, apparently this particular document and a small photograph of oswald inadvertently became involved with the evidence that was being handled in the case at the time, and the file was then put away, and it was not gone back into, as i understand it, until this interview of the d, when he discovered this document. mr. dulles. and the photograph? mr. quigley. yes, sir. mr. dulles. in addition to the writing was among these other papers? mr. quigley. yes, sir. mr. stern. did you make notes of your interview? mr. quigley. yes; i did, sir. mr. stern. do you practice shorthand or any speedwriting? mr. quigley. no, sir; i do not. mr. stern. how soon after the interview did you record the interview formally? mr. quigley. five days. mr. stern. did you dictate or draft it yourself? mr. quigley. i dictated from my notes. mr. stern. did you retain the notes? mr. quigley. no, sir; i did not. mr. stern. is it your usual practice to destroy notes once you have dictated a memorandum? mr. quigley. it is the usual practice to destroy your notes after the completed work has been returned to you for proofing to make certain that the information is accurate, then you do destroy them. (discussion off the record.) mr. stern. mr. quigley, i show you a one-page document marked for identification with the number . can you identify that document? mr. quigley. yes; i can identify this document. mr. stern. what is it, please? mr. quigley. this is a copy of a document that was turned over to me by lt. francis l. martello of the new orleans police department, on november , . he informed me that at the time he interviewed oswald on august , , oswald had on his person a piece of paper which was removed from his wallet which contained some foreign writing as well as some english, that the piece of paper inadvertently became involved in the evidence in the case with reference to the disturbing of the peace. and subsequently on november , , he found this original document that had been taken from oswald among the items of evidence at the first district police station. he then turned the original of this document over to secret service representative, mr. adrian vial, who was assigned to the secret service office at new orleans. prior to turning the original document over to mr. vial, lieutenant martello made a copy in his own handwriting of the document that was turned over to mr. vial. this is the copy of the document that lieutenant martello made and which was turned over to me on november , . mr. stern. and you have just supplied that document to the commission? mr. quigley. i have. mr. stern. you mentioned that lieutenant martello said that there was a photograph among these papers of lee harvey oswald. did you see the photograph? mr. quigley. no; i did not. mr. stern. do you know what he did--did he tell you what he had done with the photograph? mr quigley. he did not, sir. mr. stern. did he tell you anything about the photograph, tell you what it was a photograph of? mr. quigley. he remarked in his report that it appeared to be a passport photograph. mr. stern. of lee harvey oswald? mr. quigley. of lee harvey oswald. mr. stern. turning now to the first page of your report, mr. quigley, in the third paragraph you show that you were told that mrs. oswald's maiden name was prossa. from your practice, would you have taken that name down, asked the person being interviewed to spell it for you? mr. quigley. i certainly would have. mr. stern. if you were relying on your ear, would you indicate that? mr. quigley. i would never take a name phonetically. mr. stern. so you believe---- mr. quigley. i would request an accurate spelling. mr. stern. you believe that he spelled the name to you? mr. quigley. i am positive he did, sir. mr. stern. this way. have you reviewed this memorandum of your interview? mr. quigley. yes; i have, sir. mr. stern. is there anything you would like to add to it now---- mr. quigley. no, sir. mr. stern. any detail that you omitted that you now think of? mr. quigley. no, sir. mr. dulles. are you quite sure he said to you that about months ago he and his wife marina oswald, named prossa, whom he met and married in fort worth, moved to new orleans? mr. quigley. well, these are not his direct words, sir. this is the substance of what he told me; yes. this is accurate. this is my own phraseology. mr. dulles. i understand. mr. mccloy. one other thing. i have to leave shortly to go to lunch, but on page of this report you described these membership cards. mr. quigley. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. did he have the membership cards in his possession at that time? mr. quigley. yes, sir; he did, sir. mr. mccloy. you saw them? mr. quigley. yes, sir; i did, sir. i think the last you will notice, in that last sentence he had in his possession both cards and exhibited both of them. mr. mccloy. right. one of them was, at least one of them, was signed a. hidell? mr. quigley. yes, sir; that is correct. mr. mccloy. do we have those cards? mr. stern. i believe we do. i do not have them here. mr. mccloy. but it is important to have them because the name hidell was in the handwriting--but these are membership cards purporting to be membership cards in the fair play for cuba organization. would you be able to identify these cards if you saw them, mr. quigley, as the ones that were shown in oswald's possession exhibited to you? mr. quigley. i don't believe i could truthfully say if you showed me a card, these two cards now that those were the identical ones. from the description and the data that i have recorded i could say they were similar. mr. mccloy. all right. mr. quigley. i don't just feel i could identify them. bear this in mind, sir; this material was evidence as far as the new orleans police department was concerned at the time, we couldn't take this material. mr. mccloy. i understand. mr. dulles. did you say that some of it was turned over to the secret service? mr. quigley. no, sir; not to my knowledge. mr. dulles. not this material? mr. quigley. not to my knowledge, sir. mr. stern. did oswald answer all the questions you put to him in the course of your interview? mr. quigley. i am sorry. mr. stern. did oswald answer all the questions you put to him in the course of your interview? mr. quigley. no; he did not answer all of them. mr. stern. do you recall the nature of the questions he didn't want to answer or he evaded? (at this point mr. mccloy left the hearing room.) mr. quigley. when i began asking him specific details with respect to his activities in the fair play for cuba committee in new orleans as to where meetings were held, who was involved, what occurred, he was reticent to furnish information, reluctant and actually as far as i was concerned, was completely evasive on them. mr. stern. did he tell you why he had requested the interview? mr. quigley. no; he did not, sir. mr. stern. did you form any impression as to why he had requested the interview? mr. quigley. well, he was in police custody at the time, involved in a disturbing of the peace charge, was becoming involved in a fight with three cubans on the street in the distribution of fair play for cuba literature. i felt that he was probably making a self-serving statement in attempting to explain to me why he was distributing this literature, and for no other reason, and when i got to questioning him further then he felt that his purpose had been served and he wouldn't say anything further. mr. stern. why do you think it might have been important for him to explain to you what he was doing---- mr. quigley. well---- mr. stern. or to an fbi agent? mr. quigley. well, he is in custody--this i cannot answer you. you ask me what i thought, this is what my feeling was on the matter. his actual motive, i really wouldn't have any idea. mr. stern. is there any possibility that he was trying to give the new orleans police the idea that he was working for or with the fbi? mr. quigley. not to my knowledge, sir; no. mr. stern. none of his conduct went in that direction? mr. quigley. no; he certainly, to my knowledge, never advised the new orleans police of this. as a matter of fact, he, during the course of the interview with lieutenant martello, made a flat statement that he would like to talk to an fbi agent, which is not an unusual situation. frequently persons who are in custody of local authorities would like to talk to the fbi. the chairman. is that so? mr. quigley. that is true, sir. many times people don't really understand what the fbi jurisdiction is. they feel we handle a multitude of things which we don't. we are happy to talk with them, we record the information, and if we can be of assistance, we are, and if we cannot be of assistance we tell them we cannot and we explain to them why we can't be of assistance. the chairman. did he ask you to be of any assistance to him? mr. quigley. no, sir; he did not. mr. stern. mr. quigley, did you believe he was telling you the truth in all respects? mr. quigley. no; i did not, sir. mr. stern. in what respect did you think he was not telling the truth? mr. quigley. well, as i stated before, when--i accepted basic information that he furnished to me regarding background, about what occurred at the time of his arrest. then when i began questioning him as to who a. j. hidell was, who the members of the fair play for cuba committee were in new orleans, where they held their meetings, what literature he read, which he claimed he had been receiving from the fair play for cuba committee, he was noncommittal or wouldn't discuss it. at one point of the interview he told me that he had held one of the fair play for cuba committee meetings at his home. i asked him, "well, how did you get in touch with the other people?" "well, i don't care to discuss that." "who were the persons at the meeting?" "i don't know." "did you know any names at all?" "yes. they were introduced to me by first names only." "what were their first names?" "i cannot remember." so it was apparent to me that he was not certainly going to furnish anything that he had made his statement, why i did not know. but when i pressed him for details he declined to furnish anything. another one, for example, i asked him about a. j. hidell, obviously you can see why i would have been interested in this. "well, mr. hidell had a telephone." "what was mr. hidell's telephone number?" "mr. hidell's telephone has been disconnected." "what was the number?" "i can't remember." this was the end of it, so this is the basis for my thinking. mr. stern. yes. mr. quigley. one more thing i would like to add that might help clarify it, as to why i felt it was a self-serving statement is that he told me that he was distributing these throwaways for the fair play for cuba committee because of a patriotic duty, as a patriotic american citizen. this i felt was certainly, in his opinion, a self-serving statement. mr. stern. did he elaborate on that? did he tell you in what respect he thought he was performing a patriotic duty by distributing this pamphlet? mr. quigley. no; not in so many words, but he did explain that he felt that the goal and theme of the fair play for cuba committee was that it was his patriotic duty to bring to the attention of as many people as he could, the fact that the united states should not attack cuba at the time or interfere into their political affairs, and that by spreading what he considered the philosophy of the fair play for cuba committee, that the american people would better understand the internal conditions there, and the american people should be given an opportunity to go to cuba and let them make their own mind up as to what the situation was as of that time rather than just merely reading it in the newspaper. senator cooper. i have a question i would like to ask. you have just stated that oswald told you something about his own purposes and also the objectives of this fair play for cuba committee. did he make any comment on the policy of the united states toward cuba? mr. quigley. no, sir; he did not. senator cooper. did he say---- mr. quigley. to my recollection. senator cooper. did he say anything affirmatively opposing or stating what the policy of the united states was and to be opposed to it? mr. quigley. i have no recollection of that, sir. senator cooper. did he mention any official of the united states as opposing his policy? mr. quigley. no, sir; he did not. senator cooper. the president of the united states, president kennedy? mr. quigley. no, sir; everything that he told me i recorded in my notes, so everything that i have here in this document is what he told me. now bear this in mind when it was apparent to me that he was not giving me information that, i didn't continue for hours and hours--i did not know who this individual was at the time, so i felt that i had adequate background for the time being. if we wished to pursue it further, at least we had a basis to talk to him. mr. stern. your report does not indicate, mr. quigley, specifically that you believed some of the information he told you was not true? mr. quigley. that is correct. mr. stern. tell us why that is. mr. quigley. well, i feel that a person reviewing the document can draw their own conclusions that the information that he has furnished is not complete, is inaccurate, that he is obviously withholding information, plus the fact that, as a matter of policy, we do not express conclusions or personal opinions. we are a factfinding agency. we allow the facts to speak for themselves. mr. stern. would you look at page of the report, the biographical data on lee harvey oswald. at "place of birth" you have entered "new orleans, louisiana," but then put in parentheses, "at the time of arrest oswald claimed he was from cuba." mr. quigley. that is correct. mr. stern. this is not in your report as such, there is no statement, no recorded note of anything he told you about where he was born. how did that come up and what did he say? mr. quigley. following my interview with oswald, i, of course, spoke with lieutenant martello, and i made an observation that this oswald was a new orleans boy. i couldn't remember that yesterday, that he was a new orleans boy, and lieutenant martello said, "well, that isn't what he told the officers at the time of arrest. he said he was born in cuba," and this is why i recorded this. we frequently have persons who are arrested in various places in the county, and furnish record different dates, places of birth, and we always record any variations of what we feel is the truth, so our record will be complete on such a situation. mr. stern. did lieutenant martello tell you anything else at the time you learned this? mr. quigley. no, sir; we didn't discuss it further. mr. stern. what was lee harvey oswald's demeanor during the interview, his attitude, his cooperativeness? mr. quigley. he was receptive at the time i was questioning him about his general background, such as employment, "where have you been, what have you done," he told me he was unemployed at the time. he had previously worked for william riley coffee co. there in new orleans and he had been honorably discharged out of the service; that he had moved to fort worth after he had gotten out of the service and married, there were no problems involved here. but when i began questioning him with regard to his activities in the fair play for cuba committee, then he became reticent, reluctant to furnish information, and in some instances refused to furnish any information. mr. stern. was he antagonistic, hostile? mr. quigley. he was antagonistic to some extent, not overly so. he certainly was not friendly. mr. stern. how long did the interview last, to the best you can recall? mr. quigley. as best i can recall approximately an hour and a half. this would include, of course, my reviewing of the documents with him, and so on. mr. stern. did you get any indication that he was a dangerous individual or that he was, potentially, a violent individual? mr. quigley. absolutely none at all. mr. dulles. what documents did you review with him? mr. quigley. yes, sir. mr. dulles. the fair play for cuba committee and the corliss lamont report? mr. quigley. yes, sir; and the throwaways i went over those generally with him. mr. stern. when you concluded your interview, then what did you do? after awhile you talked to lieutenant martello. what did you do after that? mr. quigley. i returned to my headquarters. mr. stern. did you check your office---- mr. quigley. i did check our files and i determined that we had an investigation currently underway with regard to oswald. i knew it was assigned to an agent in the new orleans office who sat right in front of me. so i, on monday morning, i discussed the fact that i had interviewed oswald at the first district jail on saturday morning. mr. stern. do you recall what you told him about the case other than the details? did you think oswald was worthy of further investigation? mr. quigley. well, sir, this was not my decision. i was merely recording the results of an interview. i had nothing to do with the actual investigation of this particular matter. mr. stern. did you think he was behaving rationally or irrationally? mr. quigley. i would say he was acting rationally. you are speaking of the time i interviewed him? mr. stern. yes. mr. quigley. rationally. mr. stern. were you concerned at all by the fact that he had requested this interview, volunteered for it after his arrest in connection with fair play for cuba committee activity and thereafter was misleading and reluctant to talk to you about these activities? didn't you think it was strange? mr. quigley. no, sir; i just thought this was a normal situation that has occurred many times of persons in custody of the police wish to talk to an fbi agent. we have them come to our headquarters in new orleans all the time to talk to us. so i didn't consider this unusual at all. mr. stern. would it be usual or had it occurred before that someone would ask for an interview and then refuse to respond to your questions. didn't that seem strange? mr. quigley. not necessarily; not necessarily. frequently people will have a problem and want to talk to an fbi agent and they want to tell them what their problem is, but then when you start probing into it then they don't want to talk to you. i think that is just human nature. if you are probing too deep it gets a little touchy. mr. dulles. who was in charge of this other investigation from the fbi office with regard to lee harvey oswald that you found out about later, was this special agent milton r. kaack? mr. quigley. yes, sir. mr. dulles. did you make your report to him, did you? mr. quigley. orally, yes; i discussed it with him. mr. dulles. when it was sent forward was it sent forward with these documents we have in exhibit of which your report forms pages through ? mr. quigley. yes, sir; this was prepared--that is correct--this was then prepared and transcribed. but i had discussed the matter or discussed the fact that i had interviewed him. mr. dulles. was special agent kaack your superior or just happened to be in charge of this particular subject? mr. quigley. no; this investigative matter was assigned to him. mr. dulles. i see. he was the one then who forwarded the report to washington, this report we have, exhibit ? mr. quigley. he is the one who prepared it; yes, sir. mr. dulles. and included verbatim your memorandum in this report? mr. quigley. yes, sir. mr. dulles. pages to . mr. quigley. yes, sir. the chairman. six to ten. mr. stern. have you found subsequent to this interview, mr. quigley, that you had any other contact with the case of lee harvey oswald before this interview? mr. quigley. yes; i discovered at the time i checked our files that on april , , i had, as a result of a request of the dallas office, checked the office of naval intelligence records at the u. s. naval station at algiers. my purpose in checking that was merely to record what information their files contained. mr. stern. and then you would send a report to that effect to the dallas office? mr. quigley. i sent a letter i believe in that particular case. mr. stern. any other contact before this? mr. quigley. no, sir. mr. stern. any other contact with lee harvey oswald or his case or anything to do with his case? mr. quigley. no, sir. mr. stern. after your interview in the police station but before the assassination? mr. quigley. no, sir. mr. stern. up to the time of the assassination? mr. quigley. no, sir. mr. dulles. i note this case is marked "p," which i understand is pending. mr. quigley. that means---- mr. dulles. this was an open case in the new orleans office? mr. quigley. that is correct, sir. in other words, this indicates to us administratively that there is further investigation to be conducted, whether it be in new orleans or some other place in the united states or the world, as a matter of fact. mr. dulles. you mentioned algiers a minute ago. what algiers is this? mr. quigley. algiers, la., sir, right across from new orleans. mr. dulles. i don't know the geography well enough, i thought it wasn't algiers in africa. mr. quigley. yes, sir. the chairman. gentlemen, i think we might as well adjourn for lunch now. what time would you like to return? is o'clock all right with you, or : ? which would you rather have? we will be back at o'clock. (whereupon, at : p.m., the president's commission recessed.) afternoon session testimony of john lester quigley resumed the president's commission reconvened at : p.m. the chairman. the commission will be in order. mr. stern, you may continue. mr. stern. before the luncheon recess, mr. chief justice, the witness, mr. quigley, had identified commission exhibit no. and afforded the commission this one-page document which has been marked commission exhibit no. . he identified it as a copy furnished him by lieutenant martello of the new orleans police department of lieutenant martello's own handwritten copy of a document in the wallet of lee harvey oswald at the time of his arrest. i think it should be admitted, if it may be, in this form. the chairman. it may be. (the documents heretofore marked for identification as commission exhibits nos. and , were received in evidence.) mr. stern. also, this morning a question was raised concerning the two membership cards which are mentioned at page of the report. mr. quigley. i show you an envelope marked commission exhibit for identification. there is a card inside which, unfortunately, has been badly discolored by fingerprint testing. would you look at it and i think if you turn it in different directions of light you may be able to make out the typing and writing on the card. mr. quigley. yes; i can see this. mr. stern. can you identify the card? mr. quigley. i am in no position to identify this particular exhibit. mr. stern. can you tell us anything about the information that appears on the card? does it compare with any other information you have about another card? mr. quigley. at the time that i interviewed oswald in new orleans on august , , i observed two fair play for cuba committee cards. one of them was signed v. l. lee and was dated may , , and it purported to be a fair play for cuba committee card showing the address of broadway, new york , n. y. in looking at this exhibit, i see that this is a similar card as described in my report. mr. stern. similar in what respects? mr. quigley. similar in that the identification i have just described appears on the card in the exhibit . however, i am not able to identify the signature of any person other than v. l. lee, and the date i am unable to determine, although i do believe i see - - typewritten on the card. mr. stern. what about the color of the card? there is a portion on the back, mr. quigley, which has not been discolored by the fingerprint treatment. mr. quigley. i notice this is gray in color and it is similar to a card that was in oswald's possession at that time which was also gray in color. mr. stern. mr. chairman, may this be admitted? the chairman. it may be admitted. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification, and received in evidence.) the chairman. it has been identified and has a number, has it? mr. stern. yes; no. . the chairman. will be admitted under that number. (discussion off the record.) mr. stern. mr. quigley, will you look, please, at commission exhibit no. for identification, at the fourth page from the end of that exhibit? can you identify that page for us? mr. quigley. yes; i can. this is an affidavit that was prepared at the fbi office, dallas, tex., on february , , which bears my signature as well as the signature of miss matty havens, the notary public. mr. stern. what was the occasion for your making this affidavit, mr. quigley? mr. quigley. i was instructed to proceed to our dallas office to prepare such a document. this document relates to informant material. this is the general context of it. did you care for me to read the document? mr. stern. no; we have it. does informant mean to you only a person who gives information in return for money or some other valuable consideration, or does it have a broader meaning as far as you are concerned? mr. quigley. it would have a broader meaning as far as i was concerned. mr. stern. what would that mean when you used the word in this affidavit? what did you mean by "informant"? mr. quigley. one who furnishes information. mr. stern. for whatever reason? mr. quigley. whatever may be the reason; yes. mr. stern. and you did not, according to your affidavit, ask mr. oswald---- mr. quigley. i did not ask or suggest that mr. oswald become an informant of the fbi nor did i offer him any money or any other inducements to become an informant. mr. stern. did you say anything to him at all about getting in touch with you or the fbi again about any matter? mr. quigley. i did not. the chairman. mr. quigley, if you will, we will recall you if a document comes just for your identification. it will only take a few moments, i am sure. thank you very much for your coming and helping us. mr. quigley. thank you very much, sir. testimony of james patrick hosty, jr. the chairman. would you raise your right hand, please, and be sworn? do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. hosty. i do. the chairman. will you be seated, please? mr. stern will conduct the examination, mr. hosty. mr. stern. would you state your full name for the record? mr. hosty. my full name is james patrick hosty, jr. mr. stern. and what is your present address? mr. hosty. genetta drive, dallas, , tex. mr. stern. what was your education at the college level, mr. hosty? mr. hosty. i have a bachelor of science degree in business administration from the university of notre dame. mr. stern. when was that granted? mr. hosty. in , june of . mr. stern. when did you join the federal bureau of investigation? mr. hosty. january , . mr. stern. briefly, what sort of work were you employed at between and ? mr. hosty. i was first employed by the first national bank in chicago, and then employed by the beechnut packing co. as a salesman. mr. stern. what were your assignments in the fbi? mr. hosty. i was first assigned to the louisville division on general investigation, then transferred to the dallas division and served in general investigation until approximately june of when i was assigned to the internal security squad. mr. stern. when did you first arrive in the dallas office? mr. hosty. december , . mr. stern. you have been in dallas---- mr. hosty. ever since. mr. stern. ever since? mr. hosty. correct. mr. stern. are you familiar with the dallas area generally? mr. hosty. yes, sir. mr. stern. you know the downtown locations? mr. hosty. yes, sir. mr. stern. the buildings and streets? mr. hosty. yes, sir. mr. stern. can you tell us whether you were assigned to the case of lee harvey oswald? mr. hosty. yes, sir; i was. mr. stern. did you take over from agent fain or in some other way? mr. hosty. no, sir; i did not take over directly. when agent fain retired directly from the bureau he had closed the case. he had a case which we call a pending inactive case on mrs. marina oswald. this case i did take over. it was in what we call a pending inactive status, that is, nothing was to be done for a period of months. then at the end of the -month period it was then turned into a pending case and i went out and attempted to locate mrs. marina oswald for the purpose of interviewing her. i might add that it is the practice of the fbi to interview immigrants from behind the iron curtain on a selective basis, and she was so selected to be one of these persons to be interviewed. mr. stern. when was this? mr. hosty. this was march , , when i began my inquiry as to her present whereabouts. i determined on march , , through the immigration and naturalization service records that she had moved from fort worth to the dallas area. she was living on a street called elsbeth street in the oak cliff section of dallas. mr. stern. what happened in connection with the case of lee harvey oswald? mr. hosty. this case was closed at this time. it was closed. on march , , i made inquiry at this elsbeth address, and determined from the landlady, i believe her name was mrs. tobias, that she had just evicted lee and marina oswald from her apartment building because of their alleged fighting and his alleged drinking. they caused a disturbance and she had asked him to leave on march , . she told me they had moved a short distance away. she didn't know where. on that same date, i was able to determine from the postal authorities that they had changed their address to neely street, also in the oak cliff section of dallas. on the th of march, i verified that oswalds were residing at this address when i found the mailbox with the name of lee and marina oswald at this address, neely street. now, because of the alleged marital difficulties they were having, i in my judgment decided this was not the time to interview mrs. oswald, but to allow a certain cooling off period. so i then checked lee oswald's file, at which time i determined that he had a contact with the new york daily worker. mr. stern. how did you learn that? mr. hosty. from our new york office. our new york office sent a letter through to the dallas office. this was the first time i had seen this letter. mr. stern. this appeared in his file? mr. hosty. in his file; yes, sir. mr. stern. even if the case was closed, the file would continue to accumulate? mr. hosty. that is correct, and they are periodically rechecked for things of this nature. i noticed it, and then because of the domestic difficulty and the fact that i knew i would be interviewing his wife in the near future, i requested that the case be reopened. i requested the supervisor in dallas to reopen the case to me. mr. stern. was that in writing or verbally? mr. hosty. actually, it was, it would appear in writing. i did this by sending a letter to the bureau, to the fbi headquarters in washington, setting forth the information i had developed, and then on our office copy i made a request that this case be reopened. this is a normal procedure that we go through when we open cases, or reopen cases. the chairman. mr. hosty, did the letter from your new york office say what the nature of the contact with the daily worker was? mr. hosty. it said he was on the mailing list, sir, of the daily worker. the chairman. on the mailing list? mr. hosty. yes, sir. the chairman. proceed. mr. hosty. then, like i say, i made a judgment that it would be best not to interview mrs. oswald at this time until there was a certain cooling off of their domestic difficulty, because it is not wise to interview a person of that type under a strain. so i set it up that i would go back and recheck in days. this was not highly urgent at the time. we had waited a period of time, and it wouldn't hurt to wait another days. when i went back to check again in may, the middle of may, i found out that they had moved from their neely street address and had left no forwarding address. mr. stern. stop there and let's go back and cover a few details. mr. hosty. all right, sir. mr. stern. your recommendation to reopen the case of lee harvey oswald was made at the end of march ? mr. hosty. right; i believe the letter would be dated march . mr. stern. was your recommendation accepted? mr. hosty. yes; and it was reopened. mr. stern. with respect to the pending inactive investigation of marina oswald, had any work been done previous to the time when you thought about interviewing her? mr. hosty. no, sir; in a pending inactive case it is really almost in the same status as a closed case. we do nothing on it, and it was just a waiting period of months that we had set up. mr. stern. had that case been an active case? mr. hosty. no, sir; it never had been. it was opened as a pending inactive case. mr. stern. so that no work had been done? mr. hosty. no, sir. mr. stern. until the point in time when you were considering the possibility of interviewing mrs. oswald? mr. hosty. the only work that had been done was the work which i did in connection with the lee oswald case for mr. fain. i checked the immigration records on marina oswald and got her background, just put her background, her name, her description, her place of birth, and that sort of thing in the file. mr. stern. what is the difference administratively between a "pending inactive" and a "closed" case? mr. hosty. in a pending inactive case, any information coming into the office would be routed to the agent, it would not be put in the file and be missed by the agent. mr. stern. could lee harvey oswald's case have been put in a pending inactive status rather than a closed status in ? mr. hosty. i wasn't involved in that. mr. fain was the one. mr. stern. but as far as administrative procedures are concerned? mr. hosty. if they had so desired, i think they could have, yes. mr. stern. there was no policy or procedure? mr. hosty. if there was some more work to be done, if they had decided to, say, reinterview him at, say, in months, they could have. mr. stern. but it would have taken something of that sort? mr. hosty. yes; it would have to be some more work to be done on the case in the opinion of the agent. mr. stern. so that pending inactive is part of pending? mr. hosty. it is sort of midway between. mr. stern. only the work you have decided to do is more remote? mr. hosty. right. mr. stern. more in the future? mr. hosty. right. mr. stern. you say that you were considering interviewing marina oswald? mr. hosty. right. mr. stern. did you know that she did not speak english? mr. hosty. yes; i knew that. in fact, i determined that when i did the neighborhood check on the d of march. mrs. tobias told me that she didn't speak a word of english and couldn't communicate with anybody except her husband who spoke russian. mr. stern. i show you a report of four pages, marked "report of james p. hosty, jr." mr. hosty. right. mr. stern. dated - - . mr. hosty. right. mr. stern. and marked for identification commission exhibit no. . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. stern. can you identify that report for us? mr. hosty. yes, sir; that is my report. mr. stern. tell us how you came to prepare this report? mr. hosty. well, as i told you earlier, in may i found that they had left, marina and lee oswald had apparently left the dallas area. in june, i believe it was the middle of june, we received a communication from our new orleans office advising that one lee oswald, was apparently in new orleans, and requested information on him. they had had previous correspondence with the dallas office in connection with the lee oswald case, as an auxiliary office, and we are aware that we did have a case on him. they asked if this could be the same man, and i wrote back and told them that lee oswald had left the dallas area, and for them to attempt to verify the presence of lee oswald and marina oswald in new orleans. mr. stern. this was at what time, mr. hosty? mr. hosty. this was june , i believe, they notified us, and by the time i got the letter back to them within a week or it would have been the end of june, early part of july. i sent a request back that they verify his presence in new orleans. they then wrote back a letter to me, within or weeks. it would have been in august when it came back, that they had verified oswald's presence in new orleans, and that he was working in new orleans. now, this meant under our procedure that since lee oswald and marina oswald were now located in the new orleans division, they would take control of the case. mr. stern. would you explain briefly for the commission the terms "office of origin" and "auxiliary office" and how you use those terms? mr. hosty. office of origin is the office covering the area of the residence of the individual under investigation. this is the office which controls the case. now, an auxiliary office is any other office which has investigation in the case and assists the office of origin in this matter. new orleans had earlier been an auxiliary office. dallas had been the office of origin. now, the situation was reversed, because lee oswald and marina oswald were now in new orleans. this had been verified. mr. stern. would you just summarize the relevant dates from march through august in terms of your concern and what you found out about his movements and your communications with the new orleans office? mr. hosty. all right. this would be march i got the address in dallas. march i determined that they had moved from that one address to another address in dallas. march i verified that address. i sent the communication to the bureau and requested the case be reopened on march . i rechecked in the middle part of may as to if they were still at that address in dallas and determined that they were gone. on june new orleans contacted our office, and advised that they had information that the oswalds were in new orleans. early july i wrote to new orleans and requested that they verify this information and let me know. early august they did so verify it. mr. stern. if you will look at page of the report we have marked for identification no. ---- mr. hosty. yes, sir. mr. stern. the last paragraph on that page relates--well, tell us what information that refers to. mr. hosty. it says, "on april , , dallas confidential informant t- advised that lee h. oswald of dallas, tex., was in contact with the fair play for cuba committee in new york city at which time he advised that he passed out pamphlets for the fair play for cuba committee. according to t- , oswald had a placard around his neck reading, 'hands off cuba, viva fidel.'" mr. stern. did you attempt to verify that information? mr. hosty. when i got it, it was approximately or weeks old, past the date it allegedly took place, and we had received no information to the effect that anyone had been in the downtown streets of dallas or anywhere in dallas with a sign around their neck saying "hands off cuba, viva fidel." it appeared highly unlikely to me that such an occurrence could have happened in dallas without having been brought to our attention. so by the time i got it, it was, you might say, stale information and we did not attempt to verify it. mr. stern. when you record this as something that an informant advised about on april , that doesn't mean he advised you or the dallas office on april ? mr. hosty. that is right. mr. stern. did this information come from another part of the fbi? mr. hosty. yes, sir; it came from the new york office of the fbi. they were advised on the st of april. mr. stern. but the information didn't get to you until some time after? mr. hosty. in june, i believe. mr. stern. did you have any information apart from this that there was an organization active in the dallas area called, "the fair play for cuba committee"? mr. hosty. no, sir; we had no information of any organization by that name. mr. stern. had you at this time ever heard of such an organization? mr. hosty. yes, sir; i had. mr. stern. in what connection? mr. hosty. the new york office had advised all offices of the fbi to be on the alert for the possible formation of chapters of this organization which was headquartered in new york. mr. stern. had you investigated the dallas area in that connection? mr. hosty. we had checked our sources, i had and other agents assigned to the internal security division had checked sources. we were on the alert for it. mr. stern. and you found what? mr. hosty. we found no evidence that there was any such organization in dallas. mr. stern. have you reviewed this report marked for identification no. , mr. hosty? mr. hosty. yes, sir; i have. mr. stern. in connection with your preparation for testimony today? mr. hosty. yes, sir. mr. stern. is there any change you would like to make in anything set forth in it? mr. hosty. no, sir; i wish it to stand as it reads. mr. stern. is there anything you would like to add? mr. hosty. no, sir. mr. stern. amplify? mr. hosty. no, sir. mr. stern. the letters "ruc" appear on the first page after the synopsis. mr. hosty. right. mr. stern. what do they mean? mr. hosty. that stands for "referred upon completion" to the office of origin. mr. stern. what does that indicate? mr. hosty. this indicates that as an auxiliary office we have now completed our investigation. mr. stern. when did dallas become an auxiliary office in connection with this case? mr. hosty. it became an auxiliary office upon the submission of the proper forms to the new orleans office in which i designated them as office of origin. they had verified the residence and employment of lee oswald in their city, so upon sending this report and the form they automatically became office of origin. representative ford. who makes that determination, mr. hosty? mr. hosty. well, sir; actually it is made by the person who resides in their area, sir. when they reside in their area and work in their area they automatically become office of origin. the old office of origin sends a form to the new office and advises them, "you are now office of origin." of course the bureau gets a copy of that. representative ford. do you actually move the files or do they get duplicates? mr. hosty. no, sir. what we do is we review our files and see what communications in the file they do not have copies of. then they are then sent the copies of any communications they don't have, so that they have a complete file. there is nothing that they don't have. representative ford. you don't actually transfer anything from your office? mr. hosty. no; the file is not transferred. individual communications would be if they were lacking a particular communication. now, in this case new orleans had previous communications. they did have some background. it was necessary for me to give them a couple of mr. fain's reports that you people have looked at earlier. i had to send those reports to them. they hadn't gotten them. mr. stern. i think it is appropriate to have this admitted at this time, if we may, mr. chairman. the chairman. the document that has been numbered may be admitted. (the document heretofore marked commission exhibit no. for identification was received in evidence.) the chairman. i would like to ask you, mr. hosty, about the information that mrs. tobias gave you. i am reading from it now: "mrs. tobias advised they had considerable difficulty with mr. oswald who apparently drank to excess and beat his wife on numerous occasions. they had numerous complaints from the other tenants due to oswald's drinking and beating his wife." mr. hosty. yes, sir. the chairman. did you investigate that to see if that was true. mr. hosty. no, sir; i took her word for it. there was no reason for me to press it any farther. she had apparently looked into it and had evicted them on the basis of her feelings. i was just reporting what she had done. mr. stern. had you had any part of the investigation of the case of lee harvey oswald before the time covered by the report? mr. hosty. yes, sir; i had. on the th of july on request of former agent john fain, i checked the records of the immigration and naturalization service in dallas, and got the background information on marina oswald, the wife of lee oswald. i incorporated it into a memorandum. mr. stern. i show you commission exhibit no. which has previously been admitted. can you identify any part of that? mr. hosty. yes, sir; starting in the details here, when it says "at dallas the following investigation was conducted by s. a. james p. hosty, jr.," this is a direct copy of my memorandum which i prepared for agent fain down to and including all of page . mr. stern. have you reviewed that---- mr. hosty. yes, sir. mr. stern. in preparation for your testimony, and have you anything you would like to correct or add? mr. hosty. no, sir. mr. stern. after the new orleans office became office of origin, mr. hosty, did you have any further connection with the investigation of lee harvey oswald? mr. hosty. no, sir; not until october of . mr. stern. not until october? no mention of his name as far as you are concerned until then? mr. hosty. no. mr. stern. i show you a two-page document which has been marked commission exhibit no. for identification. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) can you identify this document? mr. hosty. yes, sir. this is an insert which i prepared for a larger report. notice on the top the initials "jph." those are my initials, showing i prepared these two pages. mr. stern. have you looked at the larger report from which this was taken? mr. hosty. yes, sir. mr. stern. does any part of that report relate to an investigation made before november , ? mr. hosty. no, sir; this is the only part that relates to investigation prior to the d of november . mr. stern. why was it that this was not made the subject of a separate report? mr. hosty. i don't know. i didn't make that decision. mr. stern. this is something you filed covering---- mr. hosty. i was told to do it this way, and i did it. mr. stern. you said before that you had no further connection with the case of oswald until october . mr. hosty. that is correct. mr. stern. would you tell us in detail what your first contact was in october? mr. hosty. on october , , i received a communication from our new orleans office advising that lee oswald and his wife marina oswald had left the new orleans area a short time before. according to the communication, marina oswald, who was at that time months pregnant, had left new orleans with her small child, -year-old child, in a station wagon with a texas license plate driven by a woman who could speak the russian language. lee oswald had remained behind and then disappeared the next day. i was requested to attempt to locate lee and marina oswald. mr. stern. did the request come to you personally? mr. hosty. to the dallas office, and the case was then reopened to me. dallas was an auxiliary office to new orleans, and it was reopened. i had previously handled the case. it was reopened and assigned to me. mr. stern. and by what office? mr. hosty. by the dallas office, reopened the case in dallas. mr. stern. by the supervisor? mr. hosty. supervisor of our squad, yes. mr. stern. and what squad is that? mr. hosty. the internal security squad. mr. stern. what did you do on october and thereafter? mr. hosty. well, there wasn't too much to go on, just a woman driving a station wagon with a texas license plate. i went to the immigration office to check to see if they had any information, tried to determine if we had any persons around the area, i tried to think of anyone who spoke russian who had a station wagon and who was a friend of marina oswald's. i went to fort worth and checked in his old neighborhood, lee and marina's old neighborhood, attempted to locate robert oswald, his brother, and determined that robert oswald had left the fort worth area, had moved to arkansas. i then sent out a lead to the little rock office which covered the area of malvern, ark., where robert oswald was living, and requested that he be contacted to see if he knew where lee oswald was. then i continued checking through the dallas and fort worth area attempting to determine if the oswalds had returned to the dallas or fort worth areas. mr. stern. was this a usual or unusual amount of effort? mr. hosty. i would say usual amount. i went to neighborhoods where i knew they had been, checked with relatives who had previously been cooperative, just the usual. mr. stern. was there any notion of urgency in locating him that you got from the new orleans office? mr. hosty. no particular note of urgency. just to let me know that he had left and be on the alert for him. mr. stern. did they tell you anything about what he had been doing in new orleans? mr. hosty. not at that time. mr. stern. did you have any information apart from what you knew before he moved to new orleans at that time? mr. hosty. well, i had learned before we had referred the case to new orleans that he had been engaged in this fair play for cuba committee work down in new orleans. they had told us that. we were aware that he was in contact with the fair play for cuba committee in new york. that was about all at this time. mr. stern. you learned this from the new orleans office? mr. hosty. right. mr. stern. what next happened in your effort to locate him? mr. hosty. i then received a communication on the th of october from the new orleans office advising me that another agency had determined that lee oswald was in contact with the soviet embassy in mexico city in the early part of october . mr. stern. did they tell you anything else? mr. hosty. no. just very briefly that there had been a contact. mr. stern. did this increase your effort to find him? mr. hosty. very much so, yes. i became curious then. shortly thereafter, on the th of october, i received another communication from the new orleans office advising that they had a change of address for lee and marina oswald to west fifth street, irving, tex. mr. stern. you received that information when? mr. hosty. on the th of october. mr. stern. what did you do then? mr. hosty. well, i went to--i checked the dallas crisscross. unfortunately irving is a suburb outside of dallas and people residing in irving are not covered in the city directory, so it is very difficult to determine who resides at a given address in irving. i then went out on the same date, on the th of october , to the neighborhood of west fifth street, made inquiry at west fifth street, made what we call a pretext interview, and talked to a woman, whose name at that time i didn't know, but who i now know to be mrs. dorothy roberts. mr. stern. what did mrs. roberts tell you? mr. hosty. mrs. roberts told me that the residence of west fifth street was mrs. ruth paine, the wife of michael r. paine. they were at this time separated. michael was not living at that address. she told me that michael paine was employed as engineer at the bell helicopter co. in fort worth, tex., that mrs. paine was employed on a part-time basis as a teacher of the russian language at st. marks school for boys in dallas, tex. she further told me that there was a russian-born and russian-speaking woman residing with mrs. paine. she told me this woman did not speak any english, and that she had just given birth the week before that to a new baby and she had another small child. this woman further advised me that the wife of this russian-born woman, who was an american, had visited his wife there on one occasion, but did not reside on west fifth street in irving. mr. stern. you mean husband. mr. hosty. husband, yes; i am sorry. i mean the husband of the russian, that is right. mr. stern. did you obtain any other information? mr. hosty. no, not at that time. that is what i determined from mrs. roberts at the time. mr. stern. what did you do next? mr. hosty. on the st of october, i did a credit check on michael and ruth paine for the purpose of developing further background. this credit check showed that michael paine was employed at bell helicopter as an engineer, showed no employment for mrs. paine, just showed her as a housewife, showed they had resided in irving area for a number of years, and showed a good reputation. i then checked the criminal records of the irving police department, dallas county sheriff's office. they had no record for either ruth or michael paine. contacted the bell helicopter co. and the security officer at bell helicopter, mr. ted schurman, advised me that michael paine was employed by them as a research engineer and he held a security clearance. i then went to st. marks school in dallas. i had known from previous experience this school enjoyed a good reputation and i could approach them safely. i talked to mr. edward t. oviatt, the assistant headmaster at st. marks school. he told me that mrs. paine was a satisfactory employee, loyal to the united states, and he considered her to be a stable individual. he stated that mrs. paine was employed as a part-time teacher of the russian language at that school, and he also advised that in a recent conversation with mrs. paine she had advised him that she had a russian-born woman living with her. this woman could not speak any english. she had just given birth to a new baby, and she had another small child. the husband of this woman had deserted her and mrs. paine felt sorry for her and had taken her in. mr. oviatt went on to explain that mrs. paine did this for two reasons. she wanted to improve her russian-speaking ability by having this person who spoke only russian in her household. also, he stated that she was by nature a very kindly individual, quaker by background, and this was the sort of thing that she would do to help a person in distress. mr. stern. what was the purpose of all these inquiries into the background of mr. and mrs. paine? mr. hosty. i wanted to make sure before i approached mrs. paine that she was not involved in any way with lee oswald, in any type of activities which were against the best interests of the united states. mr. stern. how do you mean before you approached mrs. paine? mr. hosty. well, it was my intention since we could not determine where lee oswald was, that he was obviously not at her address, that the best way to find out would be to ask mrs. paine. mr. stern. and you were doing all this in connection with the original request? mr. hosty. right. mr. stern. from the new orleans office? mr. hosty. right. mr. stern. and that was? mr. hosty. to locate lee oswald. mr. stern. what did you do next? mr. hosty. the next day was the st of november. i worked in the fort worth area in the morning and on my way back from the fort worth area at approximately : p.m., i stopped at the residence of mrs. ruth paine, west fifth street, and identified myself as a special agent of the fbi, and asked if i could talk to her. she was very cordial and friendly, invited me into the house. at this time, she was the only one in the living room. her small children were taking their naps, and apparently marina oswald and her children were, also napping. mr. stern. excuse me, mr. hosty. i show you commission exhibit no. , which is a floor plan of the paine home. mr. hosty. right. mr. stern. can you show the commission from this where you went as you came into the house and where you talked to mrs. paine? mr. hosty. this is the front door, and we talked right here in the living room. i believe the couch was right along here. i believe i sat here and mrs. paine sat here, right here in the living room. we were the only two in the living room, to start with. mr. stern. did you conduct this interview alone? mr. hosty. yes, sir; i was the only agent present. mr. stern. is that usual or unusual? mr. hosty. it is the usual custom when we are talking to a person who is not a subject or a hostile witness, and mrs. paine was not considered a hostile witness. mr. stern. can you show us from exhibit approximately where you parked your car that day if you recall? mr. hosty. i don't recall specifically. i do recall that her station wagon was parked in the driveway. there was another car in front of the house, and it is my recollection that i parked, perhaps, here. there is another house right next door here which was vacant, and i believe i parked in front of the vacant house right next door. mr. stern. would you put your initials where you think you parked your car, on that exhibit, please? it was about that close to the front of the house, you believe? mr. hosty. yes; it was not directly in front of the house because there was another car. michael paine, apparently, had two cars, and he kept one of them over here and he used the other one where he was now living. he left his other car here and there was a station wagon in the driveway. representative ford. is mrs. roberts' residence on---- mr. hosty. mrs. roberts' residence is over here, sir. representative ford. on the other side? mr. hosty. right. this is a vacant house. mr. stern. the top of that page is north. mr. hosty. right. this would be , , and probably here. mr. stern. , you are indicating the east side of that diagram? mr. hosty. east, yes. it would go east. mr. stern. the west side? mr. hosty. west side, that is correct. mr. stern. north being the top? mr. hosty. right. mr. stern. now, tell us in detail of your interview with mrs. paine starting from the time you rang the doorbell. mr. hosty. all right. as i say, when i entered the house i immediately identified myself. i showed her my credentials, identified myself as a special agent of the fbi, and requested to talk to her. she invited me into the house. mr. stern. did she seemed surprised at your visit? mr. hosty. no, she didn't. she was quite friendly and invited me in, said this is the first time she had ever met an fbi agent. very cordial. as i say, it is my recollection i sat here on the couch and she sat across the room from me. i then told her the purpose of my visit, that i was interested in locating the whereabouts of lee oswald. she readily admitted that mrs. marina oswald and lee oswald's two children were staying with her. she said that lee oswald was living somewhere in dallas. she didn't know where. she said it was in the oak cliff area but she didn't have his address. i asked her if she knew where he worked. after a moment's hesitation, she told me that he worked at the texas school book depository near the downtown area of dallas. she didn't have the exact address, and it is my recollection that we went to the phone book and looked it up, found it to be elm street. mr. stern. you looked it up while you were there? mr. hosty. yes; that is my recollection that we looked it up in her telephone book to show it at elm street, dallas, tex. she told me at this time that she did not know where he was living, but she thought she could find out and she would let me know. mr. stern. did she tell you why she thought he was living alone in dallas at that time? mr. hosty. well, she said that she did not want him at her house; that she was willing to take marina oswald and the two children, but she didn't have room for him and she didn't want him at the house. she was willing to let him visit his wife and family, but she did not want him residing there. mr. stern. what did she say about his visits? mr. hosty. she remarked that he came out there periodically to visit his wife and children on weekends. mr. stern. did she say when she expected his next visit might be? mr. hosty. i don't recall her stating when she expected him, no. mr. stern. did she say anything about the possibility of his coming later that day? mr. hosty. no, sir. mr. stern. you say the interview started at about : ? mr. hosty. approximately : ; yes, sir. mr. stern. about how long did it last? mr. hosty. at the very most - minutes. mr. stern. were you alone with mrs. paine throughout this period? mr. hosty. no; towards the conclusion of the interview, marina oswald, who had apparently been napping, entered the living room. mr. stern. had you ever met mrs. oswald before? mr. hosty. never before, no. as i had learned previously, and as mrs. paine had told me, she did not speak any english, so mrs. paine then told her in the russian language who i was. i was an agent with the fbi. i could tell from her eyes and her expression that she became quite alarmed, quite upset. i had had previous experience with people who come from communist-controlled countries that they get excited when they see the police. they must think that we are like the gestapo or something like that. she became quite alarmed, and, like i say, i knew that she just had a baby the week before. so i didn't want to leave her in that state, so rather than just walking out and leaving her and not saying anything to her, i told mrs. paine to relate to her in the russian language that i was not there for the purpose of harming her, harassing her, and that it wasn't the job of the fbi to harm people. it was our job to protect people. mrs. paine relayed this information. i assume she relayed it correctly. i don't speak russian. representative ford. what was the reaction, if any, on the part of marina following that comment by mrs. paine? mr. hosty. the information i had her relay? she seemed to calm down a little bit, and when i left she was smiling. i left her in a relaxed mood. i didn't want to leave her alarmed and upset, a woman with a new baby. it is not the thing to do. so she apparently was smiling, happy, and she shook hands with me as i left, i wanted to leave her in a good frame of mind. i then left. mr. stern. did you address any questions to marina oswald through mrs. paine? mr. hosty. not questions, no. i just relayed the information to her of this nature i just gave. mr. stern. anything else that you said---- mr. hosty. no, sir; that is all i can recall. mr. stern. to be translated for marina oswald? mr. hosty. no. mr. stern. anything else about your interview with mrs. paine? mr. hosty. yes; after mrs. paine told me that she would try to find out where lee oswald was living, i then gave her my name and telephone number. i wrote it down on a piece of paper for her. i am fairly certain i printed it so she would be able to read it all right. i printed my name and wrote down my office telephone number, and handed it to mrs. paine. mr. stern. did you put anything else on this piece of paper? mr. hosty. no, sir; that was all. mr. stern. are you quite sure about your recollection of that, or are you telling us on the basis of your ordinary experience? is this what you remember of the incident? mr. hosty. this is what i remember of it; yes, sir. mr. stern. you don't remember putting anything on this paper other than your name? mr. hosty. my name and telephone number. mr. stern. office telephone? mr. hosty. office telephone; right. mr. stern. and no other telephone number? mr. hosty. no, sir. mr. stern. no address? mr. hosty. no, sir. mr. stern. license number? mr. hosty. no, sir. mr. stern. you are quite certain that you can recall now only those two things? mr. hosty. yes; i do this as a standard procedure. i do this all the time. i will write my name out if a person says they want to contact me. i will give them my name and telephone number, write it on a piece of paper and give it to them. representative ford. did you write on notepaper you had or paper provided by mrs. paine, or what? mr. hosty. it was my recollection it was on my paper. i took a piece of paper off, tore it in half, printed my name and telephone number on it that i gave to her. mr. stern. do you have cards? mr. hosty. no, sir; we don't have cards. we are not allowed to carry cards. mr. stern. when mrs. paine told you that lee harvey oswald was working at the school book depository, did that mean anything to you? did you remember the building? mr. hosty. no, sir; i knew of the building in the outskirts of the downtown area. that is about all. i looked up the address, and i recognized the address, but it meant nothing to me. mr. stern. is there anything else at all that you can recall being said on november ? mr. hosty. as i said earlier, i think i should bring this in, that mrs. paine was a little bit reluctant to give me his place of employment at first. she said that lee oswald had alleged that the fbi had had him fired from every job he ever had. i told her this was not true, that i had never had anyone fired from any job nor did i know of any other fbi agents that had ever done this. i reassured her that i wanted to know his place of employment for the purpose of determining whether or not he was employed in a sensitive industry, and when i found out that he was working in a warehouse as a laborer, i realized this was not a sensitive industry. mr. stern. you were acting for the new orleans office at this time? mr. hosty. at this time; yes, sir. mr. stern. in trying to locate him? mr. hosty. right. mr. stern. had they asked you to try to determine what kind of work he was doing and whether he might be in a sensitive position? mr. hosty. well, this is automatically considered; yes. they didn't have to ask me. i knew i was to do that. mr. dulles. did you clear this with the dallas or fort worth office? how do you work out that liaison? mr. hosty. how do you mean, sir? mr. dulles. i mean with the fbi. at this time this was the territory, i assume, of dallas or fort worth. mr. hosty. right. irving, tex., is in the dallas territory; yes, sir. mr. dulles. the dallas territory? mr. hosty. right. mr. dulles. did you clear or notify the dallas office either before or after? mr. hosty. you mean after i determined this? mr. dulles. yes. mr. hosty. oh, yes, sir. this occurred on the st. this was a friday. i returned to the dallas office. i covered a couple of other leads on the way back. i got in shortly after o'clock and all our stenos had gone home. this information has to go registered mail, and it could not go then until monday morning. monday morning--shall i continue? mr. stern. yes. mr. hosty. on monday morning, i made a pretext telephone call to the texas school book depository. i called up and asked for the personnel department, asked if a lee oswald was employed there. they said yes, he was. i said what address does he show? they said west fifth street, irving, tex., which i knew not to be his correct address. i then sent a communication, airmail communication to the new orleans office advising them--and to the headquarters of the fbi advising them--and then instructing the new orleans office to make the dallas office the office of origin. we were now assuming control, because he had now been verified in our division. representative ford. when you say you made several other checks on the way to the office, did this involve---- mr. hosty. not in this case; other cases. i run anywhere from to cases any one time. i have to work them all, fit them in as i go. representative ford. these other checks did not involve this case? mr. hosty. no; other cases i was working on. mr. stern. mr. hosty, at your interview on november with mrs. paine, do you recall whether you asked her whether there was any telephone number that she knew of where lee harvey oswald could be reached? mr. hosty. no, sir; i didn't ask her about a telephone number; no, sir. mr. stern. and she didn't tell you? mr. hosty. she didn't volunteer. she told me she did not know where he lived. mr. stern. why don't you continue with the chronological report. mr. hosty. as i say, then i forwarded this airmail communication. mr. mccloy. may i ask at this point, did she indicate whether there were any belongings of lee oswald in the house? mr. hosty. she did not indicate, but, of course, she did tell me his wife and children were there, and i assumed that their personal effects would be there. we didn't go into that. mr. mccloy. you made no search of the house? mr. hosty. no, sir; that would have been illegal. i couldn't have done it without his consent. there was no attempt to do that. mr. stern. did you have any thought of interviewing marina oswald at the time she came into mrs. paine's living room in connection with the investigation of marina oswald that you had started out thinking about in march? mr. hosty. yes; i could have interviewed her here, but i thought at the time she was under a little emotional stress, this was maybe not a good time. also, as i said before, we have a requirement to have two agents present when a subject is interviewed. i was alone. and, also, i wanted to get the new orleans office to check their files to see if there was anything that i didn't have. for all i knew, they could have already interviewed her. i didn't know this. so before i would proceed with that, i wanted to make sure i had all the records, another agent, and at a better time where i could talk in more detail with mrs. oswald. then on the th of november---- mr. stern. have you told us everything that elapsed--that occurred between november and november ? mr. hosty. yes. then on the th of november, i was on my way to the fort worth area, and stopped at mrs. paine's very briefly. mr. stern. how did that happen to come about? mr. hosty. well, i was on my way to fort worth, and i did not have his residence. i thought i would stop by. mrs. paine told me she would attempt to locate where he was living. it was not too much out of my way, so i just drove over to mrs. paine's. i had another agent with me that day. mr. stern. who was that? mr. hosty. agent gary s. wilson. agent wilson was a brand new agent out of training school. and it is the custom to assign a new agent to work with an older agent for a period of weeks. they work with different agents every day to observe what they are doing. this is the only reason he was with me, the only reason i had another man. we went to the front porch. i rang the bell, talked to mrs. paine, at which time she advised me that lee oswald had been out to visit her, visit his wife, at her house over the weekend, but she had still not determined where he was living in dallas, and she also made the remark that she considered him to be a very illogical person, that he had told her that weekend that he was a trotskyite communist. since she did not have his address, i thanked her and left. mr. stern. did she indicate how she felt about this description of trotskyite communist that he pinned on himself? mr. hosty. well, she thought he was rather illogical, is the way she put it. she was a little more amused than anything else. she thought he was illogical, as i say, was the term she used. mr. stern. was marina oswald present at all? mr. hosty. i didn't see her. she was probably in the house, but i didn't see her. i didn't go in the house. i just went in the front door. mr. stern. how long do you think it was? mr. hosty. not more than or minutes. then i got in the car and left. mr. stern. where was your car parked at that time? mr. hosty. i believe in the same place, because here, again, this second car of michael paine's was still in front of the paine house, and mrs. paine's station wagon was in the driveway. so i am fairly sure i parked here at the same spot. mr. stern. and you are indicating the spot on exhibit where you initialed? mr. hosty. right, where i parked on the first of november, to the best of my recollection that is where i parked. representative ford. did agent wilson accompany you to the door? mr. hosty. yes; he walked up. representative ford. and heard the conversation? mr. hosty. yes, sir; he did. mr. stern. did you report anything about this conversation to the new orleans office? mr. hosty. no; because there was nothing new to report. i knew i was to become the office of origin. there would be a report which i would be preparing and i would incorporate it in my report. there was nothing new that they didn't already know that would aid them. mr. stern. is there anything else about this interview on november that you can tell us? mr. hosty. no, sir; that is about all. representative ford. was this comment by mrs. paine that oswald had said he was a trotskyite---- mr. hosty. trotskyite communist was the word she used; yes, sir. representative ford. was that new as far as your knowledge of your file was concerned? mr. hosty. well, he was a self-admitted marxist. he had stated that earlier. the new orleans office had reported that. he had been on television and made that statement in new orleans, so this appeared to be in keeping with his character. representative ford. the use of the word trotskyite didn't add anything to the previous marxist identification? mr. hosty. well, of course, that is a particular type of marxism, trotskyite, the followers of leon trotsky's particular deviation, but this did show that he was not a member of the communist party usa, follower of the leninist-stalinist-khrushchev movement, but would be an independent marxist would be what it would show me, not tied in with the regular communist party usa. representative ford. is there anything particularly identifiable with the trotskyite element that might alert you to anything? mr. hosty. well, yes. the socialist workers party is the trotskyite party in the united states, and they are supposedly the key element in the fair play for cuba committee, or were the key element in the fair play for cuba committee. so this would tie in with the fact that he was a member of the fair play for cuba committee, and, therefore, he claimed to be a trotskyite--this would follow. mr. mccloy. do you associate with trotskyite communists any greater disposition to acts of violence than the normal communist? mr. hosty. no, sir; no more than the others. mr. mccloy. no doctrine of policy by assassination? mr. hosty. no, sir. mr. stern. have you reviewed, mr. hosty, the document that has been marked no. for identification preliminary to your testimony today? mr. hosty. oh, yes; this one you gave me earlier; yes, sir. mr. dulles. i don't find a date on that. maybe there is one there. mr. hosty. this is an insert, sir. the date of the various information will appear at the head of each paragraph. mr. dulles. i see. but the date of preparation is not---- mr. hosty. the date of preparation would be some time after the d of november. representative ford. what do those identification numbers at the top in the left-hand corner mean? mr. hosty. that is our dallas office file number - . representative ford. does that appear on the other documents? mr. hosty. wait a minute; this relates to a control file. i believe that is the control file on mrs. paine, mrs. paine's file number. mr. dulles. i wonder if i could just interrupt. this is on the record. i am not quite clear, maybe because i came in late. are you from the dallas or new orleans office? mr. hosty. i am from the dallas division. mr. dulles. from the dallas division? mr. hosty. yes, sir. the man right before me was from the new orleans division. i am from the dallas division. mr. dulles. you are from the dallas division? mr. hosty. yes, sir. representative ford. may i pursue this just a minute. these identification numbers at the top in the upper left--as i understand it now, you are saying related to mrs. paine's file? mr. hosty. right. representative ford. now, would this, even though it was from mrs. paine's file, have been in either marina or lee harvey oswald's file or both? mr. hosty. this did appear in the report on lee harvey oswald. that was the report of december , i believe was the date. that was the first report. you probably have that overall report, don't you? (discussion off the record.) representative ford. did this material which was in mrs. paine's file---- mr. hosty. right. representative ford. appear in either marina or lee harvey oswald's file prior to the assassination? mr. hosty. let me see. part of it would have, this paragraph on page , this november , mrs. ruth paine was interviewed. this appeared in the communication i sent out to the new orleans office advising them where he was employed. mr. dulles. when was that sent? mr. hosty. the th of november, sir. the rest of it was in note form. i hadn't reduced it to writing yet. representative ford. i am still not clear what part was in mrs. paine's file and what part was in marina's file and what part was in lee harvey oswald's file prior to november . mr. hosty. prior to november just--there was no file for mrs. paine prior to november . representative ford. so this didn't appear in her file? mr. hosty. no. representative ford. until subsequent to---- mr. hosty. right. representative ford. the assassination? mr. hosty. there was no file for mrs. paine until after the assassination. representative ford. then what part appeared in marina's file or lee harvey's file prior to november ? mr. hosty. just the second paragraph of this page or the second page. mr. dulles. would this have constituted a reopening of the lee harvey oswald file, because i think we had testimony this morning that the file had been closed. mr. hosty. this would constitute having the new orleans office change origin to dallas. at this time the file on lee oswald was open. we were open as an auxiliary office. mr. dulles. in---- mr. hosty. in dallas. mr. dulles. in dallas? mr. hosty. right, and this communication to new orleans was a request that we be made origin. mr. stern. i wonder if i might summarize this? mr. dulles. it is not clear to me. mr. hosty. you missed a lot of this. mr. stern. the file was closed, sir, until march of when mr. hosty decided it should be reopened on the basis of two items of information, one of them the fact that lee harvey oswald was listed as a subscriber to the worker newspaper. mr. dulles. this is the dallas file you are now talking of? mr. stern. dallas. the case was closed in the dallas office. he reopened it in the dallas office. he subsequently found that oswald had moved, apparently permanently, to new orleans, and had the file and the case administratively shifted as far as his responsibility, as far as his primary responsibility, to the new orleans office. mr. dulles. does that mean the papers were also shifted? mr. hosty. no, sir; just those papers which they lacked. i reviewed our file. i could tell what communications they had and which communications they didn't. i then gave them all communications which i was not certain that they had. mr. dulles. but the other communications remained in the dallas file? mr. hosty. right. mr. dulles. but the dallas file, then, was not, in a sense, reactivated since the action had been transferred to new orleans, is that correct? mr. hosty. to new orleans; right. then in october the case was shifted back to dallas again. mr. dulles. at what time? mr. hosty. well, actually, november would be our request to have the case transferred back to dallas office of origin. mr. stern. i think you ought to make clear, mr. hosty, to mr. dulles, that early in october you started doing something for the new orleans office at their request. mr. hosty. yes. mr. stern. new orleans found that they couldn't locate lee harvey oswald in new orleans. mr. dulles. he had left in the meantime? mr. hosty. right. mr. stern. yes; from their leads he seemed to have gone back into the dallas area, and they asked the dallas office to see if they could locate him. mr. hosty was doing this work at the end of october and the beginning of november when he ran these interviews. just to complete that, mr. hosty, you expected, did you not, that the case would be reassigned? mr. hosty. oh, yes. mr. stern. to the dallas office? mr. hosty. oh, yes. this was tantamount to requesting it be shifted to us, yes, when i sent this communication. mr. stern. and you were beginning to think in terms of the case being your problem again? mr. hosty. right. mr. stern. even though formally at the time you were only---- mr. hosty. auxiliary office. mr. stern. operating on the request of the new orleans office to try to locate him, is that correct? mr. hosty. that is correct. mr. mccloy. this has all been previously testified to? mr. dulles. i am sorry to have missed that. mr. hosty. that is all right, mr. dulles, that is entirely all right. mr. dulles. just one question. are cases of this kind administratively transferred by agreement between two offices, or does that have to go up to washington? mr. hosty. washington always gets a copy of these communications. they know what we are doing. actually the original is sent to washington, and a carbon is sent to the other field office. mr. dulles. but you can transfer it directly from one office to another? mr. hosty. right. mr. dulles. and just notify washington as to the possibility of its being transferred? mr. hosty. right; because he is now residing and employed in our division. there is no more needs to be done. mr. dulles. i am clear. thank you very much. mr. stern. i think perhaps we can just complete the line of inquiry started by congressman ford. do your records or notes show when you first reduced to writing your notes on the interviews that began on october and the last one of which occurred on november ? mr. hosty. i can only say that it would have been sometime between the d of november and the d of december, because it went out in a report on the d of december. mr. stern. until then they were in the form of---- mr. hosty. notes. mr. stern. raw notes? mr. hosty. right. mr. stern. do you take shorthand or any other form of speedwriting? mr. hosty. no. mr. stern. have you preserved the notes? mr. hosty. i don't have them with me, no; because once it is reduced to writing then we destroy the notes. that is the procedure. mr. stern. you say you don't have them with you. did you preserve these notes? mr. hosty. no; they were thrown away. mr. stern. and this is the only record now that you have---- mr. hosty. right. mr. stern. of these activities? mr. mccloy. do you have any record in your office as to when that was put into type? does your secretary have it? mr. hosty. they might, sir. i think they might. i couldn't say for sure. mr. mccloy. i think you might look that up and see if you have any record, and give it to us. mr. hosty. all right, sir. mr. stern. but you are clear that it occurred after the assassination? mr. hosty. oh, yes, sir; positive. mr. stern. is that usual, that you would---- mr. hosty. something of this nature, yes, sir; no reason to reduce it to writing right away. mr. stern. it is true, isn't it, that some of this information had already been---- mr. hosty. transmitted in letter form to new orleans; right. mr. dulles. prior to the assassination? mr. hosty. prior to the assassination; yes, sir. representative ford. that part on the second page? mr. hosty. right; this second paragraph starting, "on november , , mrs. ruth paine"---- representative ford. what did you do, dictate that to a stenographer? mr. hosty. right. representative ford. and she typed it and it was sent officially? mr. hosty. on the th of november, right, airmail letter to new orleans. mr. stern. would that be sent to your headquarters in washington? mr. hosty. also. excuse me, the original goes to headquarters in washington, a copy goes to new orleans. it is addressed to the headquarters. mr. stern. but the only information sent was the information in that paragraph beginning "on november , ." mr. mccloy. but you had your original notes with you? mr. hosty. right. mr. mccloy. and still intact? mr. hosty. right. mr. mccloy. at the time you put this---- mr. hosty. because i knew i was going to get this into a report. the next report was written, and i would put it in a report form and destroy the notes. mr. dulles. do we have a copy of that letter of november ? mr. hosty. i don't know. mr. dulles. that you sent to headquarters and to new orleans? (discussion off the record.) mr. stern. you tell us you have reviewed these two pages? mr. hosty. yes. mr. stern. is there anything you would like to add? mr. hosty. no, sir. mr. stern. anything you would like to correct? mr. hosty. no, sir. mr. stern. this accurately states the interviews that you covered. may this be admitted in the record? the chairman. it may be admitted, no. . (the document marked commission exhibit no. for identification was received in evidence.) representative ford. may i ask one question here? mr. hosty. yes, sir. representative ford. why in these notes that are now commission exhibit didn't you mention the fact that mrs. paine had said that oswald was a trotskyite marxist? mr. hosty. no; that is set forth down here, sir. representative ford. yes; right. mr. hosty. in this second to the last paragraph, the last line. mr. mccloy. may i ask you this, mr. hosty. in your contacts with mrs. paine, did you get the impression that she was cooperative throughout? mr. hosty. yes, sir; yes, sir. mr. mccloy. nothing that she said seemed to be inconsistent with any facts that you knew? mr. hosty. no. senator cooper. may i ask a question? i believe you said that all the papers that you had respecting lee harvey oswald were supplied to the office at new orleans. mr. hosty. at the time they were made origin; yes, sir. in the summer of , that is correct, all the files. senator cooper. at the time that he was engaged in---- mr. hosty. in the fair play for cuba work; yes, sir. senator cooper. what do you call it--fair play for cuba? mr. hosty. fair play for cuba; yes, sir. senator cooper. now mr. fain testified that he had interviewed oswald i think in ---- mr. hosty. . senator cooper. . mr. hosty. that is correct. senator cooper. the year before. mr. quigley testified that oswald told him that he had married a russian girl whose maiden name was prossa, and also in that file there was another statement in which oswald had said that he had been married, that he had married a girl in fort worth. now were all those papers available to the office in new orleans? mr. hosty. yes, sir. senator cooper. i suppose this would be a question of mr. quigley, really, but if all those factors were known, it would appear that the facts that mr. fain had secured, which showed the defection and his marriage in russia, and the fact that he had told someone else he was married in texas, that there would have been some further investigation of it in new orleans. mr. hosty. well, this would be something that mr. quigley would have to answer. mr. mccloy. you had a record of inconsistent statements in there. mr. hosty. yes, sir. mr. stern. continuing that line, mr. hosty, do you recognize commission exhibit , i now hand you? mr. hosty. yes. mr. stern. that is the report of---- mr. hosty. milton r. kaack. mr. stern. and it is dated? mr. hosty. october , . i received it on november . mr. dulles. do you recall whether that inconsistent statement, that inconsistency was picked up in new orleans at this time, in the new orleans office? mr. hosty. i don't; no, sir. you mean about---- mr. dulles. about marriage. mr. hosty. about marriage? i picked it up when i saw it. mr. dulles. at what time was that? mr. hosty. november when we got the report. mr. stern. when you reviewed mr. kaack's report? mr. hosty. right. mr. stern. you were aware when you read that report that he had---- mr. hosty. lied; or was inconsistent. mr. stern. he had said in new orleans that he had been married in fort worth, married a girl named prossa, that he had originally told the new orleans police that he had been born in cuba. mr. hosty. yes. mr. stern. you were aware of all these inconsistencies? mr. hosty. right. mr. stern. what did these suggest to you in view of what you knew about oswald? mr. hosty. i knew that he was not telling the truth in his interview in new orleans, because i had previously checked the background of his wife and himself, and i knew that she was born in russia and her name was not prossa. they were not married in fort worth, so i knew he was not telling the truth. mr. stern. you knew that on november . mr. hosty. right. mr. stern. and at what time did you know of oswald's trip to mexico city and his apparent appearance there at the russian embassy? mr. hosty. the th of october. mr. stern. had you received any---- mr. mccloy. let's get these years right. mr. hosty. the th of october . mr. stern. had you received any information about any other contacts with russian officials by lee harvey oswald? mr. hosty. not at that time. mr. stern. what other information did you have at anytime about that? mr. hosty. on november , after the assassination of president kennedy, i was advised that our washington field office of the fbi had determined that he, lee oswald, had been in contact with the soviet embassy in washington, d.c. i learned that after the assassination. mr. stern. after the assassination? mr. hosty. right, sir. mr. stern. putting that aside for the moment, what was your evaluation of lee harvey oswald based on the work that you had done and the reports that you had made, the information you gathered early in november? mr. hosty. well, there were many questions to be resolved. i was quite interested in determining the nature of his contact with the soviet embassy in mexico city. i had not resolved that on the d of november. we were still waiting to resolve that. prior to that, i mean that would be the only thing---- mr. stern. what had you planned to do after november about this case? mr. hosty. well, as i had previously stated, i have between and cases assigned to me at any one time. i had other matters to take care of. i had now established that lee oswald was not employed in a sensitive industry. i can now afford to wait until new orleans forwarded the necessary papers to me to show me i now had all the information. it was then my plan to interview marina oswald in detail concerning both herself and her husband's background. mr. stern. had you planned any steps beyond that point? mr. hosty. no. i would have to wait until i had talked to marina to see what i could determine, and from there i could make my plans. mr. stern. did you take any action on this case between november and november ? mr. hosty. no, sir. mr. stern. i think we can then turn to the events of november , and have you tell us what transpired that day, beginning with the morning. mr. hosty. all right. the first order of business from : to o'clock the special agent in charge held the regular biweekly conference. now we held a conference in our office every other friday morning. it so happened that this was the friday morning which we would hold this conference, at which time the agent in charge would bring various items to our attention. among the items he brought to our attention was the fact that president kennedy would be in dallas on that date. mr. dulles. who was the special agent in charge? mr. hosty. gordon shanklin. gordon l. shanklin. representative ford. how many others besides yourself were under his jurisdiction? mr. hosty. about agents. representative ford. seventy-five? mr. hosty. yes. now only the ones at headquarters city in dallas were present. that would be about of the agents were present at this conference. mr. shanklin advised us, among other things, that in view of the president's visit to dallas, that if anyone had any indication of any possibility of any acts of violence or any demonstrations against the president, or vice president, to immediately notify the secret service and confirm it in writing. he had made the same statement about a week prior at another special conference which we had held. i don't recall the exact date. it was about a week prior. mr. stern. did you know that there was going to be a motorcade on november ? mr. hosty. i found out about p.m. the night before that there was to be a motorcade in downtown dallas. i read it in the newspaper. that was the first time i knew of it. mr. stern. did you know that the motorcade would pass the school book depository building? mr. hosty. no, sir. mr. stern. did you know the route of the motorcade? mr. hosty. no, sir. mr. dulles. had there been any contact between you or the dallas office with the secret service on this point? mr. hosty. on the motorcade route, sir? mr. dulles. yes. mr. hosty. no. mr. dulles. had not been? mr. hosty. no. mr. stern. the newspaper stories did not as far as you can recall tell what the motorcade route would be? mr. hosty. yes; they did. there was a description of the motorcade route, but as i say, i didn't bother to read it in detail. i noticed that it was coming up main street. that was the only thing i was interested in, where maybe i could watch it if i had a chance. mr. stern. so that the fact that lee harvey oswald was working in the texas school book depository meant nothing---- mr. hosty. no. mr. stern. in connection with the motorcade route? mr. hosty. no. mr. stern. did you think of him at all in connection with the president's trip? mr. hosty. no, sir. representative ford. did you have any others among the cases that were assigned to you that came to your attention in reference to the president's visit? mr. hosty. i did turn over one item of information to the secret service on the st; yes, sir. i did bring some matters to their attention. there were some scurrilous pamphlets circulated around dallas on the st of november. you may have seen them. it was a poster of president kennedy with a front and a profile view saying, "wanted for treason." i took those pamphlets over to the secret service office the morning of the st. then i assisted another agent in our division in giving the secret service some information on an individual in denton, tex., who had made some remarks about the president, and another member of my squad had also given some information to the secret service the evening of the st about the possibility of a demonstration at the trade mart against president kennedy, some picketing. representative ford. do you recall to whom you gave this information? mr. hosty. the one piece of information i gave, i gave to an agent warner of the secret service. representative ford. that was the information about what? mr. hosty. the pamphlets, the "wanted for treason" pamphlets. representative ford. those are the only documents or contacts you personally had? mr. hosty. that i personally had, that is correct. the chairman. was it a pamphlet or a dodger? mr. hosty. it was, i guess you would call it a dodger. the chairman. single sheet? mr. hosty. single sheet; yes, sir. the chairman. a single sheet, was it not? mr. hosty. yes. the chairman. did you ever ascertain who put that out? mr. hosty. no, sir; i never did. the chairman. did you ever investigate it? mr. hosty. i didn't. the chairman. do you know whether your office did? mr. hosty. i am not sure; no, sir. mr. stern. what next occurred on the d, mr. hosty? mr. hosty. all right. after the conference that lasted until about a.m., i then left the office and joined an army intelligence agent, and an agent of the alcohol tax unit of the treasury department. we had a conference concerning a case not related to lee oswald. this conference lasted most of the morning until about : . at : the army intelligence agent and myself left, and walked over towards main street. the motorcade was scheduled to pass down main street near our office at approximately noon. i was now on my lunch hour, so i stood and watched the motorcade go by at the corner of field and main street in dallas. after the president passed by, i then went across the street, started eating lunch. while i was eating my lunch, the waitress came up and told me she had just heard a radio report that the president and the vice president had both been shot. i immediately stopped my lunch. mr. stern. the president and the vice president? mr. hosty. that was the earliest report, that the vice president had been shot too. these were the rumors. i then of course left the lunchroom immediately and headed back for the office, which is only a block away. i got back to the office. one of the supervisors told me to get a radio car and get out on the street right away and i would get further instructions. i did that. i got in the car and started out. i gave the signal that i was on the air and i was told to proceed towards parkland hospital. just as i got to parkland hospital i got a call to return to the office immediately. mr. stern. do you know why you were sent to parkland hospital? mr. hosty. no. we were just told they wanted four cars to proceed to parkland hospital to stand by for further orders. mr. stern. were you told why you were ordered to return to the office? mr. hosty. when i got back they told me they wanted me to start reviewing our files to see if i could develop any information, any leads at all on the possible assassin, to help out administratively in the office. mr. stern. did the case of oswald come to your mind at that time? mr. hosty. no, sir. mr. stern. as a possible---- mr. hosty. no, sir; it was approximately : that we got the report that a police officer had been killed in the oak cliff area of dallas, and that the police were surrounding a movie theatre where the suspect was allegedly located. shortly after o'clock, we received information that this man had been captured and taken to the dallas police department. one of our agents called from the dallas police department and identified this man as lee harvey oswald. i immediately recognized the name. mr. stern. what was your reaction? mr. hosty. shock, complete surprise. mr. stern. because? mr. hosty. i had no reason prior to this time to believe that he was capable or potentially an assassin of the president of the united states. mr. stern. what happened next? mr. hosty. i immediately got the file on lee oswald, and i determined that on the st of november this change of origin from new orleans had arrived. it had not been routed to me as yet. it apparently arrived on the afternoon of the st. i got it for the first time after the assassination. mr. stern. that is the administrative---- mr. hosty. administrative form showing that i was now origin, that we now had all the information on the case. mr. stern. did they send any other information with that? mr. hosty. the only other thing that they sent was a photograph of lee oswald taken at the new orleans police department when he was arrested during the summer of . the report of milton kaack of the st had covered everything else. mr. stern. just to be clear, you were not waiting for this shift of administrative responsibility before you did anything? mr. hosty. no; i mean if there was anything else to do, i would have gone ahead and done it. mr. dulles. was that action in washington or new orleans? mr. hosty. new orleans. mr. stern. had anything else arrived at your dallas office that you were told about at that point? mr. hosty. not at that point, no; nothing had arrived then. i then took the file to the agent in charge. mr. dulles. may i ask one point here? mr. hosty. yes, sir. mr. dulles. from the point of view of the administration, is the new orleans office over the dallas office, or are they equal? mr. hosty. they are equal, sir. mr. dulles. they are equal? mr. hosty. we have offices. they are all equal. mr. dulles. all equal? mr. hosty. right. there are no regional offices. i then took the file to the agent in charge, told him that we had a case on lee harvey oswald. while i sat there he immediately called headquarters and advised headquarters here in washington, d.c., that lee harvey oswald was under arrest down at dallas and had been observed shooting a police officer. they had eyewitnesses to his killing of officer tippit. mr. stern. how do you know that? mr. hosty. this had been given to us by one of our agents from the call from the dallas police department who had given the information. i don't know who it was. i did not receive the call. i sat there and assisted the agent in charge while he talked to the bureau headquarters here. i knew the file. of course he would need some information. i would leaf through the file and get it for him so that he could relay the pertinent information. then sometime after that, the agent in charge instructed me to proceed to the dallas police department and to sit in on the interview of lee oswald, which was apparently in progress at this time. just prior to my leaving, i was told that a communication had just come in that day from the washington field office advising that lee oswald had been in contact with the soviet embassy in washington, d.c. mr. stern. were you told anything more about that? mr. hosty. no; i mean this is the point i was given this information. i then went and got a car and drove to the dallas police department, pulled my car into the basement garage of the dallas police department, parked my car. mr. stern. what were conditions like? mr. hosty. very chaotic. the press was swarming all over the police station. there were television cameras being brought into the building. many people were running, coming and going. the place was a beehive of activity. i parked the car, got out, and started in the door of the basement, at which time i observed a dallas police car, an unmarked car, drive in, in which there were four detectives. the man sitting on the right-hand side of the front seat next to the driver was a man i recognized as lieutenant revill. he signaled me that he wanted to talk to me, at which time he jumped out of the car at the head of the ramp and came over towards me. the rest of the detectives in the car continued down the ramp to be parked. we then proceeded in, lieutenant revill and i proceeded into the police department and started up the stairs. lieutenant revill advised me that--i might add he was in a very excited state--he advised me that he had a hot lead, that he had just determined that the only employee from the texas school book depository who could not be accounted for was a man named lee. now this conversation took place at approximately p.m., about an hour after lee harvey oswald had been arrested by the dallas police department. i told lieutenant revill that lee harvey oswald had been arrested about an hour ago, that he was an employee of the texas school book depository, and that he was the man who had defected to russia and had returned to the united states in . now either lieutenant revill--i don't recall if he made a statement doubting that oswald was the one who assassinated the president, or whether it was just a look of doubt on his face, but there was doubt came into lieutenant revill's--at this time i stated to him that lee oswald was the main suspect in this case. now this conversation took place running up the stairs from the basement to the third floor. at this time the level of noise was very high. as i said, there were many press representatives, tv representatives, curious bystanders, police officers, everybody running all over the place. it was not too much unlike grand central station at rush hour, maybe like the yankee stadium during the world series games, quite noisy. we got to the head of the stairs and i left lieutenant revill and went into captain fritz' office. mr. stern. was anyone else with you and lieutenant revill as you came up the stairs, as you recall? mr. hosty. as i say, the place was swarming with people. just the two of us were going up the stairs together. my conversation was with lieutenant revill only. mr. stern. i now show you a document marked for identification commission , a letter dated april , , from director hoover to mr. rankin, the general counsel of this commission, having attached a one-page copy of a newspaper article and an affidavit. do you recognize this letter? mr. hosty. yes, sir; i do. mr. stern. where have you seen it? mr. hosty. i have seen the file copy of this letter in the fbi files. mr. stern. do you recognize the newspaper article which is the first attachment to this letter? mr. hosty. yes, sir. it appeared in the dallas morning news on april , , i believe. mr. stern. and the attachment after this is? mr. hosty. my affidavit. mr. stern. your affidavit of five pages? mr. hosty. of five pages, bearing my signature. mr. stern. now tell us what the reason for your making this affidavit was. mr. hosty. it was to refute the story that appeared in the dallas morning news on april , , to set the record straight as to what actually did take place in my conversation with lieutenant revill. mr. stern. what did that story state? mr. hosty. it stated in substance, alleged that i was aware that lee harvey oswald was capable of assassinating the president of the united states, but did not dream he would do it. mr. stern. did you say that? mr. hosty. no, sir. i want to state for the record at this time that i unequivocally deny ever having made the statement to lieutenant revill or to anyone else that, "we knew lee harvey oswald was capable of assassinating the president of the united states, we didn't dream he would do it." i also want to state at this time that i made no statement to lieutenant revill or to any other individual at any time that i or anyone else in the fbi knew that lee harvey oswald was capable of assassinating the president of the united states or possessed any potential for violence. prior to the assassination of the president of the united states, i had no information indicating violence on the part of lee harvey oswald. i wish the record to so read. mr. stern. the newspaper story also mentioned another officer of the dallas police force, v. j. "jackie" brian. mr. hosty. i know him as jackie brian. mr. stern. do you know this officer? mr. hosty. i know him to see him. i don't know him too well. mr. stern. do you recall whether or not he was present when you had your conversation with lieutenant revill? mr. hosty. i don't recall him being present. i was addressing my remarks to lieutenant revill. mr. stern. have you heard that there was a rumor to the effect of this story at any time before this newspaper article appeared? mr. hosty. about weeks prior i heard a rumor, but i didn't know exactly what the story was all about. i did hear a rumor. mr. stern. what was the tone and tenor of the rumor? mr. hosty. that i had made some statement concerning oswald's assassinating the president. i wasn't clear. i was never given the exact wording. it involved my conversation with lieutenant revill. mr. stern. have you talked to lieutenant revill since this news story appeared? mr. hosty. no, sir; not since the news story appeared. mr. stern. to chief curry? mr. hosty. no, sir. mr. stern. to any supervising official of the dallas police force? mr. hosty. no, sir. mr. stern. to any newspaper reporter for any dallas newspaper or otherwise? mr. hosty. they had contacted me for comment, and i have had no comment other than the first person who called me, i denied the story. since then i have had no comment on instructions from headquarters. mr. stern. have you reviewed your affidavit in preparation for your testimony here today? mr. hosty. yes, sir. mr. stern. is there anything you would like to add to it other than what you have already said? mr. hosty. no, sir. i think it speaks for itself. mr. stern. any change you would like to make in it? mr. hosty. no, sir. the chairman. off the record. (discussion off the record.) the chairman. will you put this on the record, please? mr. rankin, is there anything in the record of the commission showing that lieutenant revill made a report to his superior officers concerning this statement that is alleged to have been made by agent hosty in this newspaper article? mr. rankin. the only thing that we have is this affidavit which you will note is commission exhibit . the chairman. yes. mr. rankin. and it bears the date november , , at the top, and is sworn to as of the th day of april . that is what chief curry testified he received from lieutenant revill. the chairman. has lieutenant revill been a witness before the commission or has he made a statement, a deposition of any kind? mr. rankin. he has not been a witness before the commission. mr. redlich. he was talked to in dallas. mr. rankin. he was a deposition witness. the chairman. when was that? mr. rankin. i will have to check that. the chairman. was it before or after this affidavit? mr. rankin. i will have to check that, mr. chief justice, to be sure. the chairman. did he in that deposition state that agent hosty had made such a statement to him? mr. rankin. i haven't examined the deposition. i don't know. we have the deposition now, but i have not examined it. the chairman. do you know, professor redlich? mr. redlich. mr. chief justice, i asked that question, and the information i have is that he was not questioned about this particular allegation. he was questioned on other matters. representative ford. did he volunteer that information? the chairman. yes. is it in the deposition at all? mr. redlich. to the best of my knowledge, it is not, mr. chief justice. mr. mccloy. don't we have the deposition here? can't we get it? mr. rankin. mr. chief justice, i would like to be sure to check that before we have that on the record. i will report by morning, if that is all right, and be sure of it. the chairman. what was the date of this newspaper article? it isn't dated here. mr. stern. the cover letter, mr. chief justice, states that it appeared on april , . the chairman. do i understand that chief curry said that no statement of that kind had been made by lieutenant revill at or about the time the statement was supposed to have been made by agent hosty? mr. rankin. i don't think his testimony was in that form, mr. chief justice. it was in the form that this was given to him and there wasn't any indication that it was given as of the date of november in his testimony. the chairman. i should like to see lieutenant revill's deposition. mr. rankin. mr. redlich has gone out for it. the chairman. we won't delay that now. we will proceed. go right ahead, mr. stern. mr. stern. what happened next? mr. hosty. as i said, i left lieutenant revill. i entered the office of capt. will fritz. after a short delay, agent james w. bookhout and myself entered the inner office of capt. will fritz of the homicide section, dallas police department, where lee harvey oswald was being questioned. mr. stern. i show you a two-page document marked commission no. for identification. can you identify that? mr. hosty. yes, sir. this is an interview form which i made for my interview with lee harvey oswald on the d of november . it was dictated as the form will indicate, on the d of november . mr. stern. let me ask you there, mr. hosty, about your practice in reducing to formal form your notes of interviews. this happened the next day? mr. hosty. right. mr. stern. is that faster than usual because of the circumstances? mr. hosty. because of the circumstances. we have to reduce them to writing within days. mr. stern. in days? mr. hosty. five working days. mr. stern. did you retain the notes of this? mr. hosty. no. after the interview is reduced to writing, i get it back and proofread it. my notes are then destroyed because this is the record. mr. stern. and in this particular instance did you destroy your notes of this? mr. hosty. yes, sir. mr. stern. now you say that you are required to reduce your notes of an interview to writing within working days. mr. hosty. right. mr. stern. did that happen with respect to the interviews you conducted on october , november , and november ? mr. hosty. to make this a little clearer, this would be an interview of a subject, not of a witness, unless this witness has something that was quite pertinent to the investigation. routine-type matters do not have to be put on these interview forms, but pertinent interviews would be. now everything in this case after the assassination was declared to be pertinent. all interviews, regardless of how insignificant, were to be put on these forms. mr. stern. but the interviews you conducted at the beginning of november and the end of october were not within this rule? mr. hosty. no; because they were not an interview of the subject or anything that contained anything of major importance. mr. stern. do you yourself destroy the notes? mr. hosty. yes. mr. stern. do you recall specifically destroying the notes of your interview? mr. hosty. yes, sir; in the wastebasket. mr. stern. your interview of oswald, on november , you put the notes in the wastebasket? mr. hosty. right. mr. stern. do you recall specifically what you did with the notes of your interviews of october , november , and november ? mr. hosty. after i reduced them to writing, such as i did here, and i got the form back, i proofread it, then i threw them away. mr. stern. and you testified that the notes of your end of october--early november interviews were transcribed after november , is that correct? mr. hosty. right. mr. stern. were the notes destroyed after you transcribed those interviews, also after november ? mr. hosty. yes. mr. stern. did you give any consideration to retaining the notes in view of the turn that the case had taken? mr. hosty. no. mr. stern. the intervening assassination? mr. hosty. no; because this is the record and the notes would not be as good as this record, because the notes are not written out fully as this is. it would just be abbreviations and things of that type. mr. stern. and you received no instructions about retaining notes? mr. hosty. no; we had no instructions. we were following the same rule we had always followed. mr. stern. why don't you tell us now, turning to your memorandum of the november interview of lee harvey oswald, what transpired from the time you first entered captain fritz' office. mr. hosty. as this interview form will show, the interview commenced at : p.m. i am certain of that time because i checked my wristwatch, and agent bookhout checked my wristwatch. we both agreed on the time, : . we came in and identified ourselves as agents of the fbi. i told oswald my name and he reacted violently. mr. stern. how do you mean? mr. hosty. to both agent bookhout and myself. he adopted an extremely hostile attitude towards the fbi. mr. stern. was it the fbi or the name hosty? mr. hosty. both. he reacted to the fact that we were fbi, and he made the remark to me, "oh, so you are hosty. i've heard about you." he then started to cuss at us, and so forth, and i tried to talk to him to calm him down. the more i talked to him the worse he got, so i just stopped talking to him, just sat back in the corner and pretty soon he stopped his ranting and raving. mr. stern. what was he saying? please be specific. mr. hosty. well, he said, "i am going to fix you fbi," and he made some derogatory remarks about the director and about fbi agents in general. i don't specifically recall the exact wording he used. representative ford. had this been the attitude that existed prior to you and bookhout coming into the---- mr. hosty. apparently not; apparently not. i couldn't say because i wasn't in the room. we walked into the room. i immediately identified myself, told him i was with the fbi, and was a law-enforcement officer, and anything he said to me could be used against him. he did not have to talk to us. senator cooper. can you describe the tone of his voice and his manner? mr. hosty. i beg your pardon, sir? senator cooper. can you describe the tone of his voice? mr. hosty. he was highly excited. he was very surly, i think would be about the best way to describe him, very surly; and he was curt in his answers to us, snarled at us. that would be his general attitude. representative ford. did he use profanity? mr. hosty. yes, sir. i can't recall any specific statements he made, however. mr. mccloy. did he complain that you had been abusing or harassing his wife in anyway? mr. hosty. he made the statement, "if you want to talk to me don't bother my wife. come and see me." he didn't say that i had abused his wife in any manner, and i hadn't. he did criticize me for talking to her. he said, "come talk to me if you want to talk to me." representative ford. is that why he knew your name, because of your conversations with her? mr. hosty. yes; apparently. mr. stern. had you ever seen oswald before? mr. hosty. not until that time. that was the first time i had seen him. senator cooper. can you remember what he said about the fbi specifically? mr. hosty. he called us gestapo, secret police, we were harassing people. it was along that line. i don't recall the exact wording. mr. stern. was he handcuffed at this time? mr. hosty. he was handcuffed behind him. after he calmed down he asked captain fritz if they could remove the handcuffs. captain fritz ordered one of his detectives to remove them from the rear, and they handcuffed him in front. mr. stern. this happened right after you came into the room? mr. hosty. shortly after we came in the room. mr. stern. before or after his outburst? mr. hosty. after his outburst; after he had calmed down. mr. stern. please continue. mr. hosty. captain fritz actually conducted the interview. agent bookhout and myself sat back in the corner and observed. captain fritz asked oswald if he had ever owned the rifle. he denied he had ever owned a rifle. he said that he had seen the superintendent of the school book depository with a rifle in his office a couple of days before the assassination, but that he had never had a rifle in the building. he then told captain fritz that he had been to the soviet union and resided there for years, and he had many friends in the soviet union. captain fritz then showed him a piece of paper which had "fair play for cuba" on it, and oswald admitted to captain fritz that he was secretary for the fair play for cuba committee in new orleans a few months ago. he told captain fritz that the fair play for cuba committee had its headquarters in new york city. captain fritz then showed oswald a marksman's medal from the marine corps, and oswald admitted that this was his medal, that he had received a sharpshooter's medal while in the marine corps. mr. mccloy. was it a sharpshooter's or a marksman's? there are two different types, you know. mr. hosty. i believe it was a sharpshooter, sir. he then told captain fritz that he had been living at north beckley, that is in dallas, tex., at north beckley under the name o. h. lee and not under his true name. oswald admitted that he was present in the texas school book depository building on the d of november , where he had been employed since the th of october. oswald told captain fritz that he was a laborer in this building and had access to the entire building. it had offices on the first and second floors with storage on third, fourth, fifth and sixth floors. oswald told captain fritz that he went to lunch at approximately noon on the d of november, ate his lunch in the lunchroom, and had gone and gotten a coca cola from the coca cola machine to have with his lunch. he claimed that he was in the lunchroom at the time president kennedy passed the building. he was asked why he left the school book depository that day, and he stated that in all the confusion he was certain that there would be no more work for the rest of the day, that everybody was too upset, there was too much confusion, so he just decided that there would be no work for the rest of the day and so he went home. he got on a bus and went home. he went to his residence on north beckley, changed his clothes, and then went to a movie. captain fritz asked him if he always carried a pistol when he went to the movie, and he said he carried it because he felt like it. he admitted that he did have a pistol on him at the time of his arrest, in this theatre, in the oak cliff area of dallas. he further admitted that he had resisted arrest and had received a bump and a cut as a result of his resisting of arrest. he then denied that he had killed officer tippit or president kennedy. mr. stern. the memorandum says, "oswald frantically denied shooting"---- mr. hosty. it should be emphatically, i believe, rather than frantically. i think this probably should be "emphatically denied." mr. stern. is this your memorandum? mr. hosty. yes, sir. mr. stern. it is signed or initialed both by you and by mr. bookhout. mr. hosty. right. the procedure is that when there are two agents involved, they both must approve it, so there can be no discrepancies. mr. stern. but you dictated it. mr. hosty. i dictated it and he read it and we both approved it. mr. stern. have you been over it recently in preparation for your testimony? mr. hosty. yes, sir. mr. stern. is it accurate? is there anything you would like to add to it? mr. hosty. i think it is correct as it stands. mr. mccloy. i didn't hear you repeating your testimony that he denied ever having been in mexico. mr. hosty. oh, yes; he was being questioned about his activities outside of the united states, where he had been outside of the united states. he told captain fritz that he had only been to mexico to visit at tijuana on the border, and then he did admit having been in russia. mr. mccloy. he only admitted to having been at tijuana in mexico? mr. hosty. right. mr. mccloy. not to mexico city. mr. hosty. not to mexico city; that is right. representative ford. there was no recording made of this interrogation? mr. hosty. no, sir; it was notes i took. agent bookhout and i took notes, and we dictated from the notes the next day. mr. stern. did you ask him any questions? mr. hosty. no; like i say, he was acting in such a hostile condition towards us that we did not. this was captain fritz' interview anyway. we were just sitting in as observers. mr. stern. did you tell captain fritz at this time any of the information you had about oswald, about his trip to mexico, for example? mr. hosty. no. mr. stern. about his being in touch with the russian authorities seeking a visa? mr. hosty. no. mr. stern. about his previous residence in the soviet union? mr. hosty. oswald himself told captain fritz of this. i didn't have to. oswald came right out and told him. mr. stern. about the affair in new orleans and his arrest there? mr. hosty. no. mr. stern. did you subsequently tell captain fritz? mr. hosty. no; i didn't tell captain fritz; no. mr. stern. was any of this information provided to the dallas police as far as you know? mr. hosty. i provided it to lieutenant revill earlier, as i pointed out. he would have been the person i would have furnished this information to as the head of the intelligence section. he would be the logical and correct person to give this information to. mr. stern. was that the extent of your advice to the dallas police? mr. hosty. right. mr. mccloy. did you tell chief curry that you had a file? mr. hosty. no, sir; i haven't talked to chief curry in several years. of course i don't deal with him too much on a chief level. mr. stern. wouldn't it be difficult for lieutenant revill to have gotten this information from you under the conditions that you described, running up the stairway and the rest of it? do you think he heard enough of this? mr. hosty. well, that is true, he might not have. but you see oswald then proceeded to tell himself, he told the police all this information, so there was no point in me repeating it when he himself, oswald, had furnished it directly to the police. mr. mccloy. but you did tell revill that you had a file on oswald? mr. hosty. no; i didn't tell him i had a file; no, sir. mr. mccloy. you did not? mr. hosty. just as i related here in the affidavit. the chairman. mr. hosty, i think the answer to this question is implicit in your testimony, but i would just like to ask it directly. did you or anyone in the fbi to your knowledge for compensation or in any manner whatsoever use oswald as an informant in any way, shape or form? mr. hosty. i have previously furnished a sworn affidavit to this commission to the effect that i had never seen or talked to lee harvey oswald prior to the d of november . i had never made payments of any kind to him, and, in addition, i had never made any attempt to develop him as an informant or source of information. i have made a sworn affidavit to that effect. the chairman. your answer to my question then is "no." mr. hosty. correct. mr. stern. this might be a good opportunity, mr. chairman, to have him identify this affidavit. i show you from commission exhibit a one-page affidavit. can you---- mr. hosty. this is my affidavit. this is my signature. mr. stern. and it was made when? mr. hosty. on the th day of february . mr. stern. why don't you read that? mr. hosty. "i, james p. hosty, jr., special agent of the federal bureau of investigation since january , , having been duly sworn, make the following statement: "at no time prior to the assassination of president john f. kennedy did i ever see or talk to lee harvey oswald. i have never made payments of any kind to him. in addition, i have never made any attempt to develop him as an informant or source of information." signed, james p. hosty, jr., special agent, federal bureau of investigation. mr. stern. mr. chairman, may we have admitted exhibits and , which mr. hosty has identified, the letter from the director of the fbi enclosing mr. hosty's affidavit as , and , which is his two-page memorandum on the interview? the chairman. that may be admitted with those numbers. (the items marked commission exhibits nos. and for identification were received in evidence.) the chairman. is that all, mr. stern? mr. stern. there are a few other points. the chairman. let's hurry them along. mr. stern. to conclude that last point, mr. hosty, do you have any knowledge of anyone else in the government service, either fbi or any other branch---- mr. hosty. no, sir. mr. stern. that tried or was successful in recruiting lee harvey oswald as an informant or employee or agent? mr. hosty. no, sir. mr. stern. did you see oswald again after the interview that captain fritz conducted? mr. hosty. no. mr. stern. what did you do when this interview concluded? mr. hosty. as i stated here, he was removed from captain fritz' office at : p.m. here again i checked my wristwatch, so i am certain the time is correct. i then went to the outer office of capt. will fritz and remained there until approximately p.m. that evening. mr. stern. you did not attend any of the lineups? mr. hosty. no, sir. mr. stern. did you talk to any member of the secret service at this time? mr. hosty. yes, sir; at approximately p.m. on the d of november , special agent in charge forrest v. sorrels of the united states secret service entered captain fritz' office with about five or six secret service agents. he then proceeded to interview lee harvey oswald, i was not present during this interview. i did see him take lee oswald to the rear of captain fritz' outer office and interview lee oswald. it appeared to me that forrest sorrels of the secret service had appeared for the purpose of representing the united states secret service in this investigation. i was aware at this time that the fbi did not have jurisdiction over this matter, that is, the assassination of the president of the united states, and that if any federal agency did have jurisdiction, it would be the united states secret service. as i later determined, no federal agency had jurisdiction over this assassination. when forrest sorrels concluded his interview with lee oswald, i called him aside and advised him that there was some additional information on lee oswald which the fbi headquarters in washington could furnish to the headquarters of the secret service in washington, and that there were two items, and that i did not feel that i could give them to him directly since they were secret in nature. mr. stern. was anyone else present during this conversation? mr. hosty. as i said, this took place in the outer office of capt. will fritz. there were about or people milling around out there. there were three or four texas rangers. there were perhaps a dozen dallas police officers. there were, as i said, five or six secret service agents. there were three other fbi agents besides myself, various clerical personnel from the police department who were assigned to the homicide division. i recognized two postal inspectors. i directed this conversation to mr. sorrels. i called him to one side and directed this to him directly. mr. stern. did you repeat the same information to anyone else later on? mr, hosty. no, sir. mr. stern. what did you have in mind? what were the two pieces of information? mr. hosty. the two pieces of information i had in mind were the contacts that lee oswald had with the soviet embassy in mexico city, and the contact that he had had with the soviet embassy in washington, d.c. mr. stern. were you in touch with your dallas office from the police headquarters regularly during the evening of the d? mr. hosty. yes. i went out and made phone calls to them, advised them of my interview and how things were going. mr. stern. did you make any calls directly to bureau headquarters in washington? mr. hosty. i didn't; no, sir. mr. stern. were you advised at any time on the d after you left your office of other information, any other information with regard to lee harvey oswald that had been supplied by bureau headquarters in washington through your dallas office? mr. hosty. no; that was all, just what i previously related. mr. stern. just what you mentioned, nothing else came through? mr. hosty. nothing else. mr. stern. were you in the police headquarters on saturday, the d, or sunday, the th, at all? mr. hosty. no, sir. mr. stern. did you have any further discussions with lieutenant revill that weekend? mr. hosty. no. mr. stern. at any time until now? mr. hosty. i have had discussions with him on two occasions since then. we did not discuss this matter of the d of november, this conversation of the d. mr. stern. did you discuss the assassination with him on either of these two occasions that you recall? mr. hosty. no, sir. mr. stern. the only conversation you had with him was going up the stairway from the basement to the third floor of the police headquarters on november ? mr. hosty. that is correct. representative ford. do you recall the dates of these two subsequent meetings with him? mr. hosty. no, sir; i don't. just the first time was maybe in january, january sometimes, possibly february, and that was at his office. then he came to our office maybe in march. i just don't recall the dates. representative ford. but those visits were on matters not at all related to the assassination or the events surrounding it? mr. hosty. actually, when he came to our office he was coming to talk to another agent, and i just said "hello" to him, and we didn't discuss anything official. i just nodded "hello" to him, "how are you doing?" when i went to his office it was in connection with another matter. mr. stern. but on neither occasion did you discuss the assassination or the events surrounding it? mr. hosty. no, sir. the chairman. have you any further questions, congressman ford? representative ford. what did you do on saturday and sunday following, in rough outline, involving the assassination, if anything? mr. hosty. i worked practically round the clock saturday night. i didn't go to bed at all, as i recall, friday night and saturday. i was covering various leads in connection with the assassination, talking to people who knew lee oswald. i talked to mrs. paine, to give you an example, the first thing saturday morning. i talked to various people that knew oswald, just covering general investigative leads in connection with the assassination, like everyone else was. but i wasn't working at the police department. representative ford. you weren't at the police department at all on saturday or sunday? mr. hosty. that is correct. the chairman. mr. mccloy, have you anything? mr. mccloy. i noticed you mentioned lieutenant revill and jackie brian. there is another name mentioned here, gordon shanklin. mr. hosty. he is the agent in charge of the dallas fbi office. mr. mccloy. it doesn't say so in this article, but it may be in this by implication. you said nothing or anything that is comparable to the alleged statement, "we have a suspect who is capable of the assassination of the president, but i never dreamed of it," to your colleague gordon shanklin? mr. hosty. no, sir. mr. mccloy. when you went to talk to mrs. paine, did you go over the premises then with her? did she, for example, show you where oswald is alleged to have kept the rifle in the garage? mr. hosty. no, sir; i didn't do that, no. mr. mccloy. did you, in the course of your followup leads, talk to mr. truly? mr. hosty. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. can you tell us what transpired between you and mr. truly? mr. hosty. yes, sir; i talked to him about---- mr. mccloy. is this anticipating something you have got? mr. stern. no. mr. hosty. this interview took place quite a bit after the assassination. i did talk to mr. truly about i believe it was in january or february of , and it concerned the time that he, mr. truly, was aware of the fact that there would be a parade through downtown dallas. and his recollection was that he was not aware of the fact that the motorcade would pass in front of his building until shortly before noon on the st when an article appeared in the dallas times herald. now the dallas times herald appears on the street at approximately : a.m., and mr. truly said shortly before noon someone from his office saw this article and mentioned it to the office employees and said they all became excited, and this was apparently the first time anyone at the texas school book depository realized the motorcade was going to pass directly in front of their building. representative ford. this was thursday? mr. hosty. thursday before, yes. it was shortly before noon. representative ford. the st? mr. hosty. on the st of november, yes. mr. mccloy. but according to your recollection of what he said, all the employees were excited and became aware of the fact that the motorcade---- mr. hosty. at that time. mr. mccloy. at that time was going to pass the school book depository. mr. hosty. right. mr. mccloy. did you notice that oswald said in the course of his interview by captain fritz that he had not had a rifle but he had seen a rifle in the possession of mr. truly? mr. hosty. right. mr. mccloy. did you interrogate mr. truly about that? mr. hosty. no, i didn't. mr. mccloy. do you know whether anyone else did? mr. hosty. i can't say for certain, no. (discussion off the record.) mr. mccloy. back on the record. do you know, mr. rankin, whether or not mr. truly has been interviewed on this subject? mr. rankin. it has been reported to me by the staff that he has. mr. mccloy. does he deny it, do you know? mr. rankin. he denies it. mr. mccloy. he denies it? mr. rankin. yes. mr. mccloy. but we have no deposition from him in that regard as yet. mr. belin. no; we do not. senator cooper. may i ask first as to exhibit no. , you have it? mr. hosty. yes, sir. senator cooper. does that represent statements made to you? mr. hosty. yes, sir. senator cooper. on november , did mrs. ruth paine tell you that she thought lee oswald was an illogical person? mr. hosty. yes, sir. senator cooper. and that he admitted to her being a trotskyite communist? mr. hosty. yes, sir. senator cooper. did you know that he had engaged in this fair play for cuba demonstration in new orleans and had been arrested? mr. hosty. yes, sir. senator cooper. you were told on november that he was employed at the texas school book depository? mr. hosty. yes, sir. senator cooper. had you checked there to see if he was employed? mr. hosty. i made a pretext interview on the th. senator cooper. on what day? mr. hosty. the th of november. senator cooper. considering that he was a defector, you knew he was a defector? mr. hosty. yes, sir. senator cooper. and considering that he had been engaged in this demonstration in new orleans, and the statement that mrs. paine had made to you, did it occur to you at all that he was a potentially dangerous person? mr. hosty. no, sir. senator cooper. why? mr. hosty. there is no indication from something of that type that he would commit a violent act. this is not the form that a person of that type would necessarily take. this would not in any way indicate to me that he was capable of violence. senator cooper. i believe you testified that you didn't know the route of the---- mr. hosty. that is correct, sir. senator cooper. of the procession which passed the texas school book depository? mr. hosty. that is correct, sir. senator cooper. did it occur to you to communicate this information to the secret service or the dallas police about oswald? mr. hosty. no, sir; there would be no reason for me to give it to them. mr. mccloy. you did know he was lying though, didn't you? mr. hosty. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. don't you think the combination of the fact that you knew that he was lying and that he was a defector and that he had this record with the fair play for cuba, that he might be involved in some intrigue that would be if not necessarily violent, he was a dangerous security risk? mr. hosty. he was a security risk of a sort, but not the type of person who would engage in violence. that would be the indication. representative ford. what are the criteria for a man being a potential violent man? is this a subjective test? mr. hosty. you mean to the point where we would report him to the secret service? representative ford. yes. mr. hosty. it is instructions we had as of the d of november, we had to have some indication that the person planned to take some action against the safety of the president of the united states or the vice president. representative ford. how do you evaluate that? do you have any criteria? mr. hosty. no; at that time it was that there had to be some actual indication of plan or a plot. representative ford. there had to be a conspiracy of some sort? mr. hosty. well, or a single person doing something if anyone was going to take any action against the safety of the president or vice president. representative ford. i think you testified earlier that at the time of the motorcade you were at your lunch hour. mr. hosty. right. representative ford. and were actually eating lunch? when a president visits a community, is the fbi or its people assigned any responsibilities as far as the security of the president is concerned? mr. hosty. prior to november , i know of no incidents where the fbi was called in to help the secret service, to my knowledge. representative ford. and particularly on this day none of the---- mr. hosty. definitely not. representative ford. of the people in the fbi in the dallas area were given any assignments? mr. hosty. that is correct. representative ford. for the security of the president? mr. hosty. that is correct. mr. mccloy. mr. hosty, let me ask you this: suppose you had known that that motorcade was going to go past the school book depository, do you think your action would have been any different? mr. hosty. no, sir; it wouldn't have been any different. mr. mccloy. even though you knew that he was located there? mr. hosty. right. mr. mccloy. and that he was a defector? mr. hosty. right. the chairman. senator. senator cooper. have you received any evidence that any person other than lee oswald was involved in the assassination of president kennedy? mr. hosty. no, sir; i have no knowledge of anyone else. senator cooper. did you know anything about the attempt on general walker's life? mr. hosty. i have read in the newspapers about the attempt on general walker's life; yes. senator cooper. your office was not connected with an investigation of that? mr. hosty. no; this was not a matter under the jurisdiction of the fbi. it was under the jurisdiction of the dallas police department. the chairman. mr. hosty, you told us what your instructions were concerning dangerous persons as of the d of november. have they been changed? mr. hosty. i think mr. belmont will bring that up tomorrow if it be all right. yes; they have been. the chairman. you will be sure to ask him that to get that from him. are there any other questions, gentlemen? mr. mccloy. mr. hosty, are you still engaged in any aspects of the assassination? mr. hosty. oh, yes. i am still involved in the investigation of it, what investigation we still have. mr. mccloy. and any odds and ends that come up? mr. hosty. right. mr. mccloy. you are still in the process of investigating? mr. hosty. yes, sir. the chairman. i would like to ask professor redlich, did you find anything in the deposition of lieutenant, what was his name? mr. redlich. revill. the chairman. revill, on this subject? mr. redlich. no, sir. lieutenant revill was deposed on tuesday, march , by mr. hubert of the commission's staff. the chairman. what date? mr. redlich. march , . the deposition consisted almost entirely of questions relating to mr. revill's responsibilities in connection with the investigation of the murder of lee harvey oswald, and during the course of that interrogation there is nothing at all on the matter which was the subject of commission exhibit no. . the chairman. is there any reference in his testimony to his going up the stairs with agent hosty on the d of november? mr. redlich. no, sir. the chairman. nothing concerning that particular time in the police station? mr. redlich. no; there was not. the chairman. very well. that is all. mr. rankin. mr. chief justice, i answered mr. mccloy's question in error about mr. truly. mr. belin tells me that he examined the fbi statement, and there is a statement by mr. truly in regard to two rifles in which he explains it, as he says, innocently. mr. belin, would you tell for the record what that is? mr. belin. i would almost rather wait until tomorrow morning to have the fbi reports before the commission, if i can. i think it is a friend brought a rifle. the chairman. it would be better to have the report itself here. mr. belin. i will have that for the commission tomorrow morning, sir. mr. mccloy. i think, mr. hosty, you have probably answered this question which is very closely related to that which senator cooper asked you. you testified that you were continuing your investigation of various aspects of this case. you have not thus far at least unearthed anything which could be called in the nature of a conspiracy? mr. hosty. no, sir. mr. mccloy. in connection with this assassination? mr. hosty. you mean involving someone else? mr. mccloy. someone else? mr. hosty. no. mr. mccloy. other than---- mr. hosty. lee oswald. mr. mccloy. oswald. and that would cover certainly any connection with mr. ruby? mr. hosty. that is correct. mr. mccloy. have you ever interviewed mr. ruby? mr. hosty. no, sir. mr. mccloy. i think that is all i have. the chairman. are there any other questions? congressman ford? representative ford. i think earlier, mr. hosty, you indicated that the case of oswald was under your jurisdiction? mr. hosty. was assigned to me; yes, sir. representative ford. assigned to you? mr. hosty. yes, sir. representative ford. as i recall the language you indicated that documents or papers or reports came to you? mr. hosty. correct. representative ford. would this go through the special agent in charge of the dallas area or what would it be? mr. hosty. here would be the procedure. the mail would be received at the chief clerk's office. they would then match it up with the proper file, and take it to the supervisor in question. representative ford. who is that? mr. hosty. mr. kenneth howe was supervisor of the internal security squad, and he would get it first, would read it, and then route it to the agent to whom the case was assigned. representative ford. so mr. howe---- mr. hosty. yes. representative ford. was knowledgeable about the oswald case? mr. hosty. right. representative ford. now how knowledgeable would a person in that capacity be about this case? mr. hosty. well, i might point out where i would have to cases that i was working on, he might have to cases he was supervising, so obviously he couldn't pay as much attention to the details of the case as the agent to whom it was assigned. representative ford. he saw all the documents that came in or went out involving this case? mr. hosty. this case and many other cases. representative ford. did you and mr. howe ever discuss the oswald case prior to the assassination? mr. hosty. i have no recollection of any discussion of the case; no. representative ford. is this unusual or is this typical? mr. hosty. there would be a discussion if in my opinion there was something i wanted to consult him on or if in his opinion there was something he wanted to consult me on. if he thought i was handling the case all right, and i had no questions, we would not discuss the case. representative ford. your recollection is that in this instance you and mr. howe had no such discussion? mr. hosty. that is my recollection. mr. mccloy. after this one interview in which you participated at least in part with lieutenant or captain fritz, i forgot what his rank is---- mr. hosty. captain fritz. mr. mccloy. captain fritz, did you ever interview or were you ever a participant in an interview of oswald thereafter? mr. hosty. no; this was the only time i participated. mr. mccloy. did you return to the police headquarters the next day? mr. hosty. no, sir. mr. mccloy. you weren't there when oswald was shot? mr. hosty. no, sir. the chairman. thank you very much, mr. hosty. mr. hosty. thank you, mr. chief justice. the chairman. thank you for your help. we are very glad to have seen you, sir. the meeting will adjourn. (whereupon, at : p.m., the president's commission recessed.) transcriber's notes: punctuation and spelling were made consistent when a predominant preference was found in this book; otherwise they were not changed. misspellings in quoted evidence not changed; misspellings that could be due to mispronunciations were not changed. some simple typographical errors were corrected. inconsistent hyphenation of compound words retained. ambiguous end-of-line hyphens retained. occasional uses of "mr." for "mrs." and of "mrs." for "mr." corrected. dubious repeated words, (e.g., "what took place by way of of conversation?") retained. several unbalanced quotation marks not remedied. occasional periods that should be question marks not changed. occasional periods that should be commas, and commas that should be periods, were changed only when they clearly had been misprinted (at the end of a paragraph or following a speaker's name in small-caps at the beginning of a line). some commas and semi-colons were printed so faintly that they appear to be periods or colons: some were found and corrected, but some almost certainly remain. the index and illustrated exhibits volumes of this series may not be available at project gutenberg. page : "intransit to the fbi" perhaps should be "in transit". page : "mr. dulles. is is likely" should be "is it likely". page : "with you permission" should be "your". page : "frankly, i don't know what there conclusion was" should be "their". page : "protrusion" was misprinted as "protrustion"; corrected here. page : "this cotton of this cotton" should be "or". page : "several sutures of chromic gut where used" probably should be "were used". page : "alignement" was printed that way. page : "alinement" was printed that way. page : "we had a plane to fall" was printed that way. page : "so help you god" was misprinted as "held"; corrected here. page : "we would has asked them" was printed that way. pages and : "hideel" and "hidell" both used. page : "october " was printed without a comma after " ". page : "mr. quigley. i show you an envelope" was printed as though mr. quigley was the speaker, but in context, this must have been spoken by mr. stern. page : "harassing his wife in anyway?" probably should be "any way". www.history-matters.com. investigation of the assassination of president john f. kennedy hearings before the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy pursuant to executive order , an executive order creating a commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of the late president john f. kennedy and the subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and s.j. res. , th congress, a concurrent resolution conferring upon the commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas _volume_ vi united states government printing office washington, d.c. u.s. government printing office, washington: for sale in complete sets by the superintendent of documents, u.s. government printing office washington, d.c., president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy chief justice earl warren, _chairman_ senator richard b. russell senator john sherman cooper representative hale boggs representative gerald r. ford mr. allen w. dulles mr. john j. mccloy j. lee rankin, _general counsel_ _assistant counsel_ francis w. h. adams joseph a. ball david w. belin william t. coleman, jr. melvin aron eisenberg burt w. griffin leon d. hubert, jr. albert e. jenner, jr. wesley j. liebeler norman redlich w. david slawson arlen specter samuel a. stern howard p. willens[a] [a] mr. willens also acted as liaison between the commission and the department of justice. _staff members_ phillip barson edward a. conroy john hart ely alfred goldberg murray j. laulicht arthur marmor richard m. mosk john j. o'brien stuart pollak alfredda scobey charles n. shaffer, jr. biographical information on the commissioners and the staff can be found in the commission's _report_. preface the testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume vi: drs. charles j. carrico, malcolm oliver perry, william kemp clark, robert nelson mcclelland, charles rufus baxter, marion thomas jenkins, ronald coy jones, don teel curtis, fouad a. bashour, gene coleman akin, paul conrad peters, adolph hartung giesecke, jr., jackie hansen hunt, kenneth everett salyer, and martin g. white, who attended president kennedy at parkland hospital; drs. robert roeder shaw, charles francis gregory, george t. shires, and richard brooks dulany, who attended governor connally at parkland hospital; ruth jeanette standridge, jane carolyn wester, henrietta m. ross, r. j. jimison, and darrell c. tomlinson, who testified concerning governor connally's stretcher; diana hamilton bowron, margaret m. henchliffe, and doris mae nelson, who testified concerning president kennedy's stretcher; charles jack price, the administrator of parkland hospital; malcolm o. couch, tom c. dillard, james robert underwood, james n. crawford, mary ann mitchell, barbara rowland, ronald b. fischer, robert edwin edwards, jean lollis hill, austin l. miller, frank e. reilly, earle v. brown, royce g. skelton, s. m. holland, j. w. foster, j. c. white, joe e. murphy, roger d. craig, george w. rackley, sr., james elbert romack, lee e. bowers, jr., b. j. martin, bobby w. hargis, clyde a. haygood, e. d. brewer, d. v. harkness, j. herbert sawyer, and gerald dalton henslee, who were present at the assassination scene; william h. shelley, nat a. pinkston, billy nolan lovelady, frankie kaiser, charles douglas givens, troy eugene west, danny g. arce, joe r. molina, jack edwin dougherty, eddie piper, victoria elizabeth adams, geneva l. hine, and doris burns, employees of the texas school book depository; mary e. bledsoe, william w. whaley, and mrs. earlene roberts, who gave testimony concerning oswald's movements following the assassination; and domingo benavides, and mrs. charles davis, who were present in the vicinity of the tippit crime scene. contents page preface v testimony of-- charles j. carrico malcolm oliver perry william kemp clark robert nelson mcclelland charles rufus baxter marion thomas jenkins ronald coy jones don teel curtis fouad a. bashour gene coleman akin paul conrad peters adolph hartung giesecke, jr jackie hansen hunt kenneth everett salyer martin g. white robert shaw charles francis gregory george t. shires richard brooks dulany ruth jeanette standridge jane carolyn wester henrietta m. ross r. j. jimison darrell c. tomlimson diana hamilton bowron margaret m. henchliffe doris mae nelson charles jack price malcolm o. couch tom c. dillard james robert underwood james n. crawford mary ann mitchell barbara rowland ronald b. fischer robert edwin edwards jean lollis hill austin l. miller frank e. reilly earle v. brown royce g. skelton s. m. holland j. w. foster j. c. white joe e. murphy roger d. craig george w. rackley, sr james elbert romack lee e. bowers, jr b. j. martin bobby w. hargis clyde a. haygood e. d. brewer d. v. harkness j. herbert sawyer gerald dalton henslee william h. shelley nat a. pinkston billy nolan lovelady frankie kaiser charles douglas givens troy eugene west danny g. arce joe r. molina jack edwin dougherty eddie piper victoria elizabeth adams geneva l. hine doris burns mary e. bledsoe william w. whaley earlene roberts domingo benavides mrs. charlie virginia davis exhibits introduced bowron exhibit no.: page brewer exhibit a brown exhibit a davis exhibit no.: dillard exhibit: a b c d dougherty exhibit: a b c edwards exhibit a fischer exhibit no. foster exhibit: a b giesecke exhibit no. gregory exhibit no. hill exhibit no. holland exhibit: a b c d jenkins exhibit no. jones exhibit no. kaiser exhibit: a b c miller exhibit a molina exhibit a murphy exhibit a nelson exhibit no. piper exhibit a price exhibit no. reilly exhibit a sawyer exhibit: a b skelton exhibit a tomlinson exhibit no. whaley exhibit a white exhibit a hearings before the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy testimony of dr. charles j. carrico the testimony of dr. charles j. carrico was taken at : a.m., on march , , at parkland memorial hospital, dallas, tex., by mr. arlen specter, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. specter. may the record show that dr. charles j. carrico is present in response to a letter request for him to appear so that his deposition may be taken in connection with the proceedings of the president's commission on the investigation of the assassination of president kennedy in connection with the inquiry into all phases of that assassination, including medical care rendered at parkland memorial hospital. dr. carrico has been asked to testify relating to the treatment which he rendered the president at parkland hospital. with that preliminary statement of purpose, dr. carrico, would you please stand up and raise your right hand. do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before the president's commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you god? dr. carrico. i do. mr. specter. would you state your full name for the record, please? dr. carrico. charles james carrico. mr. specter. what is your profession, sir? dr. carrico. physician. mr. specter. are you duly licensed by the state of texas to practice medicine? dr. carrico. yes. mr. specter. and would you outline briefly your educational background, please? dr. carrico. i attended grade school and high school in denton, tex.; received a bachelor of science in chemistry from north texas state college in , and an m.d. from southwestern medical school in , and served an internship at parkland memorial hospital from to , and a year of fellowship in surgery at southwestern, followed by my residency here. mr. specter. are you working toward any specialty training, doctor? dr. carrico. i am engaged in a general surgery residency which will qualify me for my boards in general surgery. mr. specter. and what were your duties on november , , at parkland hospital? dr. carrico. at that time i was assigned to the elective surgery service and was in the emergency room seeing some patients for evaluation for admission to the hospital. mr. specter. and what were you doing specifically around o'clock noon? dr. carrico. approximately noon or shortly thereafter i was in the clinic and was called to come into the emergency room to see these people and evaluate them for admission and treatment. mr. specter. were you notified that there was an emergency case on the way to the hospital at approximately : ? dr. carrico. yes. mr. specter. in which president kennedy was involved? dr. carrico at that time i was in the emergency room seeing these patients and the call was received that the president had been shot and was on his way to the hospital. mr. specter. what is your best recollection as to what time it was when you received that call? dr. carrico. this was probably shortly after : . mr. specter. and how long after that call was received did the president's party actually arrive at parkland? dr. carrico. an estimation would be minutes or less. mr. specter. describe what occurred upon the arrival of the president's party at parkland, please. dr. carrico. we were in the emergency room preparing equipment in response to the call we had received when the nurse said over the intercom that they were here. governor connally was rolled in first and was taken to one of the trauma rooms. mr. specter. and what identification was given to the trauma room to which governor connally was taken? dr. carrico. trauma room . mr. specter. who was present at the time that governor connally came into the emergency area? dr. carrico. as i recall, dr. richard dulany, myself, several of the nurses, miss bowron is the only one i can definitely remember. don curtis, oral surgery resident, and i believe martin white, the intern, was there. these are the only people i remember being present at that time. we had already sent out a call for dr. baxter and dr. perry and the rest of the staff. mr. specter. did dr. dulany take any part in the treatment of president kennedy? dr. carrico. no, no, sir; he didn't. mr. specter. did dr. martin white take any part in the treatment of president kennedy? dr. carrico. i believe he was in there and did the--he helped dr. curtis with the cutdown, the initial cutdown. mr. specter. what did dr. dulany do? dr. carrico. dr. dulany and i initially went to see the governor, as i said, and he stayed with the governor while i went to attend to the president, care for the president. mr. specter. who was the first doctor to reach president kennedy on his arrival at parkland hospital? dr. carrico. i was. mr. specter. and who else was with president kennedy on his arrival, as best you can recollect it? dr. carrico. mrs. kennedy was there, and there were some men in the room, who i assumed were secret service men; i don't know. mr. specter. can you identify any nurses who were present, in addition to miss bowron? dr. carrico. no, i don't recall any of them. mr. specter. what did you observe as to the president's condition upon his arrival? dr. carrico. he was lying on a carriage, his respirations were slow, spasmodic, described as agonal. mr. specter. what do you mean by "agonal" if i may interrupt you for just a moment there, doctor? dr. carrico. these are respirations seen in one who has lost the normal coordinated central control of respiration. these are spasmodic and usually reflect a terminal patient. mr. specter. would you continue to describe your observations of the president? dr. carrico. his--the president's color--i don't believe i said--he was an ashen, bluish, grey, cyanotic, he was making no spontaneous movements, i mean, no voluntary movements at all. we opened his shirt and coat and tie and observed a small wound in the anterior lower third of the neck, listened very briefly, heard a few cardiac beats, felt the president's back, and detected no large or sucking chest wounds, and then proceeded to the examination of his head. the large skull and scalp wound had been previously observed and was inspected a little more closely. there seemed to be a - cm. area of avulsion of the scalp and the skull was fragmented and bleeding cerebral and cerebellar tissue. the pupils were inspected and seemed to be bilaterally dilated and fixed. no pulse was present, and at that time, because of the inadequate respirations and the apparent airway injury, a cuffed endotracheal tube was introduced, employing a larynzo scope. through the larynzo scope there seemed to be some hematoma around the larynx and immediately below the larynx was seen the ragged tracheal injury. the endotracheal tube was inserted past this injury, the cuff inflated, and the tube was connected to a respirator to assist the inadequate respiration. at about this point the nurse reported that no blood pressure was obtained. mr. specter. dr. carrico, with respect to this small wound in the anterior third of the neck which you have just described, could you be any more specific in defining the characteristics of that wound? dr. carrico. this was probably a - mm. wound, almost in the midline, maybe a little to the right of the midline, and below the thyroid cartilage. it was, as i recall, rather round and there were no jagged edges or stellate lacerations. mr. specter. you said you felt the president's back? dr. carrico. yes. mr. specter. would you describe in more detail just what the feeling of the back involved at that time? dr. carrico. without taking the time to roll him over and look or to wash off the blood and debris, and while his coat and shirt were still on his arms--i just placed my hands at about his beltline or a little above and by slowly moving my hands upward detected that there was no large violation of the pleural cavity. mr. specter. why did you not take the time to turn him over? dr. carrico. this man was in obvious extreme distress and any more thorough inspection would have involved several minutes--well, several--considerable time which at this juncture was not available. a thorough inspection would have involved washing and cleansing the back, and this is not practical in treating an acutely injured patient. you have to determine which things, which are immediately life threatening and cope with them, before attempting to evaluate the full extent of the injuries. mr. specter. did you ever have occasion to look at the president's back? dr. carrico. no, sir. before--well, in trying to treat an acutely injured patient, you have to establish an airway, adequate ventilation and you have to establish adequate circulation. before this was accomplished the president's cardiac activity had ceased and closed cardiac massage was instituted, which made it impossible to inspect his back. mr. specter. was any effort made to inspect the president's back after he had expired? dr. carrico. no, sir. mr. specter. and why was no effort made at that time to inspect his back? dr. carrico. i suppose nobody really had the heart to do it. mr. specter. you had begun to describe some of the action taken in order to endeavor to revive the president. will you continue with that description, please? dr. carrico. i believe we were to where the endotracheal tube had been inserted. after this, the president--his respirations were assisted by the bennett machine. we again listened to his chest to attempt to evaluate the respirations. breath sounds were diminished, especially on the right, despite the fact that the endotracheal tube was in place and the cuff inflated, there continued to be some leakage around the tracheal wound. for this reason dr. perry elected to perform a tracheotomy, and instructed some of the other physicians in the room to insert chest tubes, thoracotomy tubes. at the beginning of the resuscitation attempt intravenous infusions had been started using polyethylene catheters by venesection, lactated renger solution, and uncross-matched type o rh negative bloods were administered and mg. of hydrocortisone were administered. shortly after the completion of the tracheotomy, dr. bashour arrived and had connected the cardiac monitor. although i never saw evidence of cardiac activity, electrical cardiac activity, dr. clark stated that there was a perceptible electrical beat which shortly thereafter disappeared, and closed cardiac massage was instituted. the cardiac massage was successful in maintaining carotid and radial pulses, but the patient's state rapidly deteriorated and at approximately o'clock he was pronounced dead. mr. specter. what, in your opinion, was the cause of death? dr. carrico. a head injury. mr. specter. have you now described all the treatment which was given to the president as best you recollect it? dr. carrico. as i recall; yes, sir; that's all--i'm sorry. mr. specter. did you have any occasion or opportunity to examine the president's clothing? dr. carrico. we did not do that. mr. specter. and was no examination of clothing made, dr. carrico? dr. carrico. again, this was a matter of time. the clothes were removed by the nurses, as is the usual practice, and the full attention was devoted to trying to resuscitate the president. mr. specter. on the examination of the president's back which you described that you performed, did you note any bleeding from the back? dr. carrico. there was considerable blood on the cart and on his back. i could not tell if this came from his back or had fallen down from the head injury. there was also some cerebral tissue there. mr. specter. what did your examination by feeling disclose with respect to whether he had any back wound? dr. carrico. i did not feel any. now, this certainly wouldn't detect a small bullet entrance. all this examination is designed to do is to establish the fact that there is no gross injury to the chest posteriorly. mr. specter. is that a routine type of examination, to ascertain whether there is a gross injury to the chest posteriorly? dr. carrico. yes, sir. mr. specter. what did you observe as to the president's clothing with respect to the presence of a back brace, if any? dr. carrico. there was, on removing the president's shirt and coat, we noted he was wearing a standard back support. mr. specter. would you describe that back support, please? dr. carrico. as i recall, it was white cotton or some fibrous support, with staves, bones and if i remember buckled in the front. mr. specter. how wide was it? dr. carrico. how wide? mr. specter. yes, sir. dr. carrico. i don't know; i didn't examine below--you see--as i recall, it came about to his umbilicus--navel area. mr. specter. was there any ace bandage applied to the president's hips that you observed? dr. carrico. no; i didn't remove his pants. mr. specter. did you have any opportunity to observe that area of his body when his pants were removed? dr. carrico. i had the opportunity, but i didn't look. mr. specter. what doctors were involved in the treatment of president kennedy? dr. carrico. well, of course, dr. perry, dr. clark, dr. baxter, dr. mcclelland, dr. peters was in the room, dr. bashour, dr. ronald jones, dr. curtis, i believe, dr. white was there--initially, at least, i don't recall right offhand anyone else. there were other doctors in there, i just can't specifically remember--there were or people in the room before it was over. mr. specter. do you have an opinion, dr. carrico, as to the cause of the punctate wound in the president's throat? dr. carrico. no; i really don't--just on the basis of what i know. we didn't make an attempt, as you know, to ascertain the track of the bullets. mr. specter. i can't hear you. dr. carrico. as you know, we didn't try to ascertain the track of the bullets. mr. specter. and why did you not make an effort to determine the track of the bullets? dr. carrico. again, in trying to resuscitate the president, the time to do this was not available. the examination conducted was one to try to establish what life threatening situations were present and to correct these. mr. specter. was there any discussion among the doctors who attended president kennedy as to the cause of the neck wound? dr. carrico. yes; after that afternoon. mr. specter. and what conversations were there? dr. carrico. as i recall, dr. perry and i talked and tried after--later in the afternoon to determine what exactly had happened, and we were not aware of the missile wound to the back, and postulated that this was either a tangential wound from a fragment, possibly another entrance wound. it could have been an exit wound, but we knew of no other entrance wound. mr. specter. was the wound in the neck consistent with being either an entry or exit wound, in your opinion? dr. carrico. yes. mr. specter. or, did it look to be more one than the other? dr. carrico. no; it could have been either, depending on the size of the missile, the velocity of the missile, the tissues that it struck. mr. specter. dr. carrico, assume these facts, if you will--first, that president kennedy was struck by a . -mm. missile which entered the upper-right posterior thorax, just above the scapula, being cm. from the tip of the right acromion, a-c-r-o-m-i-o-n (spelling) process, and cm. below the tip of the right mastoid process, and that the missile traveled between two strap muscles, proceeded through the fascia channel without violating the pleural cavity, striking the side of the trachea and exiting in the lower third of the anterior throat. under the circumstances which i have just described to you, would the wound which you observed on the president's throat be consistent with the damage which a . -mm. missile, traveling at the rate of approximately , feet per second, that being muzzle velocity, with the president being to feet away from the rifle, would that wound be consistent with that type of a weapon at that distance, with the missile taking the path i have just described to you? dr. carrico. i certainly think it could. mr. specter. and what would your thinking be as to why it could produce that result? dr. carrico. i think a missile of this size, traveling in such a direction that it had very little deformity, struck nothing which would cause it to begin tumbling, and was slowed very little by passing through this relatively easy traversed planes, would not expend a great deal of energy on exit and would very likely not tumble, thus producing a small, round, even wound. mr. specter. what has been your experience, if any, with gunshot wounds? dr. carrico. in working in the emergency room at parkland, we have seen a fairly good number of gunshot wounds, and with . and . caliber weapons of somewhat, possibly somewhat lower velocity but at closer range, we have seen entrance and exit wounds of almost the same size, especially the same size, when passing through superficial structures. mr. specter. and what superficial structures did those missiles pass through to which you have just referred? dr. carrico. the ones i was referring to in particular were through the muscles of the leg superficially. mr. specter. approximately how many missile wounds, bullet wounds, have you had an opportunity to observe in your practice, doctor? dr. carrico. i would guess or . mr. specter. would you describe as precisely for me as possible the nature of the head wound which you observed on the president? dr. carrico. the wound that i saw was a large gaping wound, located in the right occipitoparietal area. i would estimate to be about to cm. in size, more or less circular, with avulsions of the calvarium and scalp tissue. as i stated before, i believe there was shredded macerated cerebral and cerebellar tissues both in the wounds and on the fragments of the skull attached to the dura. mr. specter. did you notice any other opening in the head besides the one you have just described? dr. carrico. no, sir; i did not. mr. specter. specifically, did you notice a bullet wound below the large gaping hole which you described? dr. carrico. no, sir. mr. specter. what is your opinion, doctor, if you have one, as to how many bullets were involved in the injuries inflicted on the president? dr. carrico. as far as i could tell, i would guess that there were two. mr. specter. prior to today, have you ever been interviewed by any representative of the federal government? dr. carrico. yes, sir; the secret service talked to us shortly after the president's death. mr. specter. do you recall who talked to you on that occasion? dr. carrico. no; i don't recall his name. mr. specter. what was the content of that interview? dr. carrico. we spoke to him in dr. shires' office in the medical school concerning the president's death, mostly my part was just a statement that the written statement that i had submitted was true. mr. specter. i now call your attention, doctor, to a document heretofore identified as commission exhibit no. , to a -page summary which purports to bear your signature, and dated november , , hours, and ask you first of all if that is a photostatic copy of a report which you submitted? dr. carrico. yes; it is. mr. specter. and, is that your signature at the end? dr. carrico. yes. mr. specter. and are the facts set forth in there true and correct? dr. carrico. they are. mr. specter. with respect to this notation of a ragged wound of the trachea, which is contained in your report, could you describe that in more specific detail? dr. carrico. in inserting the endotracheal tube, a larynzo scope was inserted and it was noted that there was some discoloration at the lateral edge of the larynx and there appeared to be some swelling and hematoma and in looking through the chords which were partially open, a ragged tissue and some blood was seen within the trachea itself. this was the extent of what i saw. mr. specter. would that specific portion of the wound give any indication as to direction of the bullet? dr. carrico. no; it wouldn't. mr. specter. was there any characteristic within the neck area to give any indication of the direction of the bullet? dr. carrico. no, sir. mr. specter. did the secret service man whom you just described ask you any questions beyond whether the contents of your report were true? dr. carrico. i can't recall any specific questions. he did ask some others and they did concern the wounds, and what we felt the wounds were from, the direction, and so forth. mr. specter. and what response did you make to those inquiries? dr. carrico. essentially the same as i have here. i said i don't remember specifically. mr. specter. have you talked to any other representative of the federal government prior to today? dr. carrico. not in connection with this. mr. specter. well, have you talked to someone in connection with something else? dr. carrico. just some government employment--civil service. mr. specter. but the only time you talked to anyone about your treatment of president kennedy and your observations relating to that treatment was on this one occasion with the secret service? dr. carrico. yes; except i just recalled since that time, another secret service agent--i did speak to him briefly. he asked me if i had any other information and i said "no". mr. specter. is that the total contents of that conversation? dr. carrico. yes. mr. specter. prior to the time we went on the record here before you were sworn in, did you and i have a brief conversation about the purpose of this disposition, and the general nature of the questions which i would ask you? dr. carrico. yes, sir. mr. specter. and was the information which you gave me at that time the same as that to which you have testified here on the record? dr. carrico. yes; it was. mr. specter. have you ever changed any of your opinions regarding your treatment and observations of president kennedy? dr. carrico. not as i recall. mr. specter. by the way, dr. carrico, how old are you at the present time? dr. carrico. twenty-eight. mr. specter. was any bullet found in the president's body. dr. carrico. not by us. mr. specter. do you have any other notes or written record of any sort concerning your treatment of president kennedy? dr. carrico. not concerning the treatment. i have a note i wrote to my children for them to read some day, but it doesn't concern the treatment. mr. specter. what does that concern? dr. carrico. it just concerns the day and how i felt about it and why it happened--maybe. mr. specter. personal observations on your part? dr. carrico. yes. mr. specter. did you participate in any of the press conferences? dr. carrico. no. mr. specter. do you have anything to add which you think might be of assistance in any way to the president's commission? dr. carrico. no, sir; i don't believe i do. mr. specter. dr. carrico, have i made available to you a letter requesting your appearance on monday, march , before the commission, and do you acknowledge receipt of that? dr. carrico. i do. mr. specter. and would it be possible for you to attend and testify at that time? dr. carrico. i certainly can. mr. specter. washington, d.c. dr. carrico. yes. mr. specter. thank you very much, dr. carrico. dr. carrico. yes, sir. testimony of dr. malcolm oliver perry the testimony of dr. malcolm oliver perry was taken at : p.m., on march , , at parkland memorial hospital, dallas, tex., by mr. arlen specter, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. specter. may the record show that dr. malcolm o. perry is present in response to a letter request that he appear here to have his deposition taken in connection with the proceedings of the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy, which is now inquiring into all facets of the shooting, including the medical attention received by president kennedy at parkland hospital, in which dr. perry participated. with that preliminary statement of purpose, would you please stand up, dr. perry, and raise your right hand? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the president's commission in these deposition proceedings will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? dr. perry. i do. mr. specter. all right. would you state your full name for the record, please? dr. perry. malcolm oliver perry. mr. specter. what is your profession, sir? dr. perry. physician and surgeon. mr. specter. and how old are you? dr. perry. thirty-four. mr. specter. are you duly licensed to practice medicine in the state of texas? dr. perry. yes. mr. specter. would you outline briefly your educational background, please? dr. perry. starting with high school? mr. specter. that will be fine. dr. perry. i attended high school at allen high school and at plano high school, graduating from the latter in . i entered the university of texas from whence i duly graduated with a degree of bachelor of arts in . i went to southwestern medical school of the university of texas for the subsequent years, graduating in with a degree of doctor of medicine. i interned at letterman's army hospital in san francisco, and returned to a residency in surgery at parkland hospital in july . i finished that residency in june , and then returned to san francisco and spent year as additional specialization in vascular surgery. i then returned in september , to southwestern medical school of the university of texas as an assistant professor of surgery. mr. specter. what were your duties on november , ? dr. perry. well, as is accustomed, i was at that time on two services, both a general surgery service and a vascular surgery service as a consultant and attending surgeon. mr. specter. and, what were you doing specifically shortly after noontime on november ? dr. perry. well, at the time of the incident in question, i was having lunch in the main dining room with the chief resident, dr. ronald jones, in preparation for the usual friday rounds at o'clock with the residents. mr. specter. and what occurred during the course of that luncheon? dr. perry. dr. jones, as i say, and i were having lunch when an emergency call came over the speaker system for dr. tom shires, who is the chief of surgery. i knew that dr. shires was in galveston giving a paper and was not in the hospital, so dr. jones picked up the page to see if he or i could be of assistance. we were informed by the hospital operator that mr. kennedy had been shot and was being brought to parkland hospital for care. mr. specter. and what action did you take as a result of learning those factors? dr. perry. the dining room was located one floor up from the emergency room, so dr. jones and i went immediately to the emergency room to render what assistance we could. at the time of our arrival in the emergency room, the president was already there, and as i entered trauma room no. , dr. james carrico, the surgical resident on duty, had just placed an endotracheal tube to assist respiration. mr. specter. who was present in addition to dr. carrico, if you recall, at that time? dr. perry. i cannot with accuracy relate all the people that were there--dr. carrico, i saw and spoke to briefly. there were several other people in the room. there were several nurses there--i don't know at this time who they were. mrs. kennedy was in the room and there was a gentleman with her and there were several other gentlemen both in the door and right outside the door to the room. some of them, i assume, part of the legal force. mr. specter. did you observe any other doctors in the room at that time? dr. perry. no, sir; i did not. there was somebody else in the room, but i don't know who it was. i remember only dr. carrico--i had the impression that one of the interns was in the room, but this may be an impression gathered after the fact. mr. specter. what did you observe as to the president's condition at the time you first saw him? dr. perry. he was lying supine on the emergency cart directly in the center of the room under the overhead lamp. his shirt had, been removed, and intravenous infusion was being begun in the right leg, i believe. dr. carrico was at the head of the table attaching the oxygen apparatus to assist in respiration. i noted there was a large wound of the right posterior parietal area in the head exposing lacerated brain. there was blood and brain tissue on the cart. the president's eyes were deviated and dilated and he was unresponsive. there was a small wound in the lower anterior third in the midline of the neck, from which blood was exuding very slowly. mr. specter. will you describe that wound as precisely as you can, please? dr. perry. the wound was roughly spherical to oval in shape, not a punched-out wound, actually, nor was it particularly ragged. it was rather clean cut, but the blood obscured any detail about the edges of the wound exactly. mr. specter. what was the condition of the edges of the wound, if you can recollect? dr. perry. i couldn't state with certainty, due to the fact that they were covered by blood and i did not make a minute examination. i determined only the fact that there was a wound there, roughly mm. in size or so. mr. specter. have you now described it as precisely as you can; that wound? dr. perry. i think so. mr. specter. what else, if anything, did you observe as to the condition of the president? dr. perry. spasmodic respiratory efforts were obvious, but i did not detect a pulse nor a heart beat on a very rapid examination. it was apparent that respirations were ineffective, even with the use of the endotracheal tube and oxygen. at that point i asked dr. carrico if this was a wound in his neck or had he begun the tracheotomy, and he said it was a wound and i, at that point, asked someone to get me a tracheotomy tray, and put on some gloves and initiated the procedure. mr. specter. now, have you described everything that you can recollect about your observations of the president before you started to work on him? dr. perry. there was no evidence to that cursory examination of any other wound. i did not move the president. i did not turn him over. mr. specter. why did you not turn him over? dr. perry. at that point it was necessary to attend to the emergent procedure and a satisfactory effective airway is uppermost in such a condition. if you are unable to obtain an effective airway, then the other procedures are to be of no avail. mr. specter. well, on the subject of turning him over, did you ever turn him over? dr. perry. i did not. mr. specter. why didn't you turn him over after you had taken the initial action on him? dr. perry. after the tracheotomy tube was in place and we were breathing for him, dr. clark and i had begun external cardiac massage, since we had been unable to detect a heart beat, blood pressure, or pulse. i continued with the cardiac massage while dr. clark examined the head wound, and he and dr. jenkins conferred in regard to the electrocardiogram. it was determined that none of the resuscitative measures were effective and the procedures were then abandoned. i had no further business in the room at that point, and i left the room momentarily. i returned within a minute or so, because i had left my coat where i dropped it and asked one of the nurses to hand me my coat, and i left the room and went to the operating suite from there. mr. specter. and did that conclude your participation in the treatment of president kennedy? dr. perry. it did. mr. specter. what is your best estimate as to the time you arrived in the emergency room? dr. perry. i really don't know the time. it was about : or so when i was eating and the call must have come thereabouts, and i didn't look at my watch at that time, nor did i have an opportunity to look at it again until after i had left the room. mr. specter. what is your best estimate as to the time which elapsed from the point that you knew it was : , until the time you arrived at the emergency room? dr. perry. it must have been within the next few minutes. i really don't know. as i say, we were sitting there eating and i had no occasion to look at my watch again. at that time i was much too busy to consult it further. mr. specter. what is your best estimate as to the time you left the emergency room after finishing your treatment and work on the president? dr. perry. after i left trauma room no. , i went outside and washed my hands and then i retrieved my coat and i sat down for a few minutes in a chair there in the emergency room for probably or minutes, i suppose, and then i went from there to the operating suite to assist in the care of the governor, so i must have left the emergency room probably somewhere around : or : , i would gather. mr. specter. at approximately what time was the president pronounced to be dead? dr. perry. i don't know this for a fact, other than what was related to me by dr. clark, and he tells me that this was at o'clock. once again, i did not verify the time. mr. specter. have you described all of the efforts which were made to revive the president? dr. perry. there were other procedures done that i did not do during this period. i did not describe in detail the performance of the tracheotomy. it seems that that is really not necessary at this time, unless you want it. mr. specter. will you describe it in detail, the procedures which were followed in the efforts to save the president's life? dr. perry. all right. well, to regress, then, at the time i began the tracheotomy, i made an incision right through the wound which was present in the neck in order to gain complete control of any injury in the underlying trachea. i made a transverse incision right through this wound and carried it down to the superficial fascia, to expose the strap muscles overlying the thyroid and the trachea. there was an injury to the right lateral aspect of the trachea at the level of the external wound. the trachea was deviated slightly to the left and it was necessary to divide the strap muscles on the left side in order to gain access to the trachea. at this point, i recall, dr. jones right on my left was placing a catheter into a vein in the left arm because he handed me a necessary instrument which i needed in the performance of the procedure. the wound in the trachea was then enlarged to admit a cuffed tracheotomy tube to support respiration. i noted that there was free air and blood in the superior right mediastinum. although i saw no injury to the lung or to the pleural space, the presence of this free blood and air in this area could be indicative of a wound of the right hemithorax, and i asked that someone put a right chest tube in for seal drainage. at the time i did not know who did this, but i have been informed that dr. baxter and dr. paul peters inserted the chest tube and connected it to underwater drainage. blood transfusions and fluid transfusions were being given at this time, and through the previous venesections that had been done by dr. jones and dr. carrico. also, the president had received mg. of solucortef in order to support his adrenal glands, since it was common medical knowledge that he suffered from adrenal insufficiency. of course, oxygen and pressure breathing were being effected under the guidance of dr. jenkins and dr. giesecke, who were handling the anesthesia machine at the head of the table. dr. bashour and dr. seldin, in addition to dr. clark, had arrived and also assisted in monitoring cardiac actions, as indicated by the oscilloscope and the cardiotachioscope. mr. specter. have you now described all of the operative procedures performed on the president? dr. perry. yes, all that i am familiar with. mr. specter. are there any doctors who participated other than those whom you have already identified in the course of your description? dr. perry. yes, sir; immediately on arriving there, and as i say, dr. jones and i, and i saw dr. carrico, and i have the impression there was another physician there, but i don't know who it was. i asked that an emergency call be placed for dr. kemp clark, chief of neurosurgery, for dr. robert mcclelland, and dr. charles baxter, assistant professors of surgery. they responded immediately. i don't know how long it took them to get there, but they were probably there within the next few minutes. my first recollection of dr. mcclelland and dr. baxter being there was when i was doing the tracheotomy, they suddenly were there assisting me. i don't know when they came in the room, nor do i know when dr. clark or the other gentlemen arrived, and there must have been or doctors all told by then. mr. specter. are there any others whom you could identify? dr. perry. dr. peters--i previously mentioned, dr. paul peters, assistant professor of urology, dr. fouad bashour, associate professor of medicine, and chief of cardiology, and dr. don seldin, chief of medicine. i mentioned dr. m. t. jenkins, chief of anesthesia, and dr. giesecke, his assistant professor of anesthesiology--that's the only people that i saw directly. mr. specter. could the first doctor whom you saw have been dr. don curtis? dr. perry. that's entirely possible--i don't recall. mr. specter. was dr. dulany there? dr. perry. i have initially had the impression that dr. dulany was in the room when i came in there, but as i understand it, he actually was just going into the room across the hall, but he was there by the door when i came in, but i had the impression he was leaving that room, but i understand he was not, that actually he was going--just going in the room across the hall with the governor, although i initially thought dr. dulany was there. mr. specter. what did you observe, if anything with respect to bruising in the interior portion of the president's neck? dr. perry. there was considerable hematoma in the right lateral portion of the neck and the right superior mediastinum, as i noted. as for bruising, per se, it would be difficult to describe that, since by definition, hematoma would be a collection of blood, and there was so much blood that the tissues were discolored. i did not attempt to ascertain trajectory or path of the bullet at the time, but directed myself to obtaining an adequate airway and carried my examination no further down than it was necessary to assure myself that the trachea was controlled and that there was no large vessel injury at that level. mr. specter. were there sufficient facts available to you for you to reach a conclusion as to the cause of the wound on the front side of the president's neck? dr. perry. no, sir, there was not. i could not determine whether or how this was inflicted, per se, since it would require tracing the trajectory. mr. specter. what did you observe as to the president's head, specifically? dr. perry. i saw no injuries other than the one which i noted to you, which was a large avulsive injury of the right occipitoparietal area, but i did not do a minute examination of his head. mr. specter. did you notice a bullet hole below the large avulsed area? dr. perry. no; i did not. mr. specter. dr. perry, earlier i asked you whether you turned over the president at any time during the course of your treatment or examination of him, and you indicated that you had not, and i then asked you why, and you proceeded to tell me of the things that you did in sequence, as being priority items to try to save his life. why did you not turn him over at the conclusion of those operative procedures? dr. perry. well, actually, i didn't have a specific reason, other than it had been determined that he had expired. there was nothing further that i could do and it was not my particular prerogative to make a minute examination to determine any other cause. i felt that that was a little bit out of my domain. mr. specter. did you have any occasion to examine the president's clothing to ascertain direction of the missile? dr. perry. no; i did not. the only aspect of clothing that i know about--i happen to recall pushing up the brace which he had on in an attempt to feel a femoral pulse when i arrived, and i could not, but the shirt had been removed by the personnel there in the emergency room, i assume. mr. specter. what did you observe as to the description of that brace? dr. perry. i couldn't give you a description. i just saw and felt the lower edge of one, and i reached to feel the left femoral pulse. mr. specter. did you see whether the president was wearing any sort of an ace bandage on the midsection of his body when his trousers were taken down? dr. perry. there was evidence of an ace bandage--i saw it sticking out from the edge on the right side, as i recall. i don't believe it was on the midsection, although it may have been. i believe it was on his right leg--his right thigh. mr. specter. do you know whether it was on the left leg and thigh as well? dr. perry. no, i don't. i just saw that briefly when i was reaching for that pulse and i didn't do any examination at all of the lower trunk or lower extremities. mr. specter. did you personally make any examination by feeling, or in any other way, of the president's back? dr. perry. i did not. mr. specter. did you participate in a press conference or press conferences following the death of the president? dr. perry. yes. mr. specter. and when was the first of such press conferences? dr. perry. i don't know the exact time, mr. specter. it must have been within the hour, i would say; i don't know exactly. mr. specter. and who was present at that press conference by way of identifying, if you can, the members of the news media? dr. perry. i have no idea. the press conference was held in classrooms and combined here at parkland. the room was quite full of people. i remember noting some surprise how quickly they had put in a couple of telephones at the back. there were numerous cameras and lights, and flashbulbs, and i went there with one of the administrators, mr. landregan, and dr. kemp clark and mr. hawkes, who was identified to me as being with the white house press. i don't know--there were numerous people of the press. mr. specter. what doctors appeared and spoke at that press conference? dr. perry. dr. clark, myself, and dr. baxter was also there. he arrived a little bit late. i called him just before i went down and asked him and dr. mcclelland to come. i could not find dr. mcclelland. he apparently was busy with a patient at the time. i recall dr. baxter came in after the press conference had begun, but i don't believe he said anything. dr. clark and i answered the majority of the questions. mr. specter. well, what questions were asked of you and what responses did you give at that press conference? dr. perry. well, there were numerous questions asked, all the questions i cannot remember, of course. specifically, the thing that seemed to be of most interest at that point was actually trying to get me to speculate as to direction of the bullets, the number of bullets, and the exact cause of death. the first two questions i could not answer, and my reply to them was that i did not know, if there were one or two bullets, and i could not categorically state about the nature of the neck wound, whether it was an entrance or an exit wound, not having examined the president further--i could not comment on any other injuries. as regards the cause of death, dr. clark and i concurred that massive brain trauma with attendant severe hemorrhage was the underlying cause of death, and then there were questions asked in regard to what we did, and i described as i have for you, although not in such detail--essentially the resuscitative measures that were taken at that time; namely, the reinfusion of a balanced salt solution of blood, solucortef, assisting of respiration with oxygen and pressure apparatus, the tracheotomy, and the chest tubes and the monitoring with the cardiotachioscope. mr. specter. did you express a view as to what might have happened with respect to the number of bullets? dr. perry. i was asked by several of the people of the press, initially, if there were one or two or more bullets, and to that, dr. clark and i both replied that we could not say. i was then asked if it was conceivable that it could have been caused by one bullet, and i replied in the affirmative, that i did not know, but it was conceivable. mr. specter. did you elaborate on how it could have been caused by one bullet? dr. perry. i was asked if this were one bullet, how would it occur, and i said, "it is conceivable or possible that a bullet could enter and strike the spinal column and be deviated superiorly to exit from the head." mr. specter. and where would that point of entry have been? dr. perry. the surmise was made that if the point of entry were in the neck, how would it have happened, and that is the way i would have reconstructed it. again, this was speculation. mr. specter. did you denominate it clearly as speculation? dr. perry. i did. mr. specter. or, what could have been as opposed to what your opinion was? dr. perry. i did. i said this was conceivable--this was possible, but again, dr. clark and i emphasized again that we did not know whether there was one or two bullets. mr. specter. did you express any view as to whether it might have been one bullet or two bullets or either, or what? dr. perry. i said i did not know. mr. specter. and were you asked any other questions at that press conference that you can recollect as being important at this time? dr. perry. someone did ask us about mrs. kennedy, and i recall that i mentioned that i did not speak to her, but that she was very composed and very quiet. mr. specter. now, were you a part of any other press conferences? dr. perry. yes; i was. mr. specter. and when did the next one occur? dr. perry. there were several organized press conferences that occurred in the administration suite in the hospital, mr. specter, and i don't know the exact times of these. there were several later that afternoon. there were some the following day, on saturday, also held in the administrator's office, and then there were subsequent conferences in relation to the other incident that occurred on sunday with mr. oswald. i don't know how many there were. mr. specter. were all these conferences set up by the administration of the hospital? dr. perry. they were all conducted here. they weren't necessarily--i wouldn't say--set up by the administration. they were done here at the hospital, with one exception, of which you are aware, that i spoke with you about the gentleman that came to me when i was out of town. mr. specter. will you elaborate upon what occurred on that occasion, please? dr. perry. i had taken the course of complying with the press insofar as was possible about what i could speak that was common knowledge and which had already been covered at the initial press conference. i had done that in the administrative suite or in the hospital or in the medical school under an organized situation as opposed to doing it, say, at home. i left town monday following the incident on sunday with oswald, in order to secure a little bit of rest for myself and my family, and approximately hours later, members of the press had located me and requested an interview, which i granted, denying any photographs and the interview consisted of essentially the same thing that i had given to the previous press conference at the hospital. mr. specter. where was that interview conducted? dr. perry. that was in mcallen, tex. mr. specter. in the course of all of these press conferences did you say anything other than that which you have already related you said during the course of the first press conference? dr. perry. that would require a little bit of thought. i don't think in essence i said anything different. of course, the wording certainly would have been different. i subsequently had a little bit more knowledge about the initial episode attendant of course upon my discussions with the other doctors and the writing out of our statements, knowledge which i did not have initially, which may have made subsequent statements perhaps more accurate as regards to time and people, but in essence, things that i did and things that i said that i did are essentially the same in all of these. mr. specter. dr. perry, i now show you a group of papers heretofore identified as commission exhibit no. , and i turn to two sheets which are dated november , , which have the name "perry" beside the doctor and purport to bear your signature, and the time-- hours, november , and i ask you if this is a photostatic copy of the handwritten report which you submitted concerning the attention you gave to the president on the day of the assassination? dr. perry. yes; it is. mr. specter. is this your signature appearing on the second sheet? dr. perry. that is my signature. mr. specter. and are the facts set forth herein true and correct? dr. perry. they are, to the best of my knowledge, correct. mr. specter. dr. perry, have contents of the autopsy report conducted at bethesda naval hospital been made available to you? dr. perry. they have. mr. specter. and are the findings in the autopsy report consistent with your observations and conclusions concerning the source and nature of the president's wounds? dr. perry. yes; they are. i think there are no discrepancies at all. i did not have that information initially, and as a result was somewhat confused about the nature of the wounds, as i noted--i could not tell whether there was one or two bullets, or from whence they came, but the findings of the autopsy report are quite compatible with those findings which i noted at the time that i saw the president. mr. specter. and have you noted in the autopsy report the reference to the presence of a wound on the upper right posterior thorax just above the upper border of the scapula, being by mm. in oval dimension and being located cm. from the tip of the right acromion process and cm. below the tip of the right mastoid process? dr. perry. yes; i saw that. mr. specter. assuming that was a point of entry of a missile, which parenthetically was the opinion of the three autopsy surgeons, and assuming still further that the missile which struck the president at that spot was a . -mm. jacketed bullet shot from a rifle at a distance of to feet, having a muzzle velocity of approximately , feet per second, and that upon entering the president's body, the bullet traveled between two strap muscles, through a fascia channel, without violating the pleural cavity, striking the trachea, causing the damage which you testified about being on the interior of the president's throat, and exited from the president's throat in the wound which you have described in the midline of his neck, would your findings and observations as to the nature of the wound on the throat be consistent with the set of facts i just presented to you? dr. perry. it would be entirely compatible. mr. specter. and what is the basis for your conclusion that the situation that i presented to you would be entirely compatible with your observations and findings? dr. perry. the wound in the throat, although as i noted, i did not examine it minutely, was fairly small in nature, and an undeformed, unexpanded missile exiting at rather high speed would leave very little injury behind, since the majority of its energy was expended after it had left the tissues. mr. specter. and would the hole that you observed on the president's throat then be consistent with such an exit wound? dr. perry. it would. there is no way to determine from my examination as to exactly how accurately i could depict an entrance wound from an exit wound, without ascertaining the entire trajectory. such a wound could be produced by such a missile. mr. specter. were any facts on trajectory available to you at the time of the press conferences that you described? dr. perry. they were not. mr. specter. in response to an earlier question which i asked you, i believe you testified that you did not have sufficient facts available initially to form an opinion as to the source or direction of the cause of the wound, did you not? dr. perry. that's correct, although several leading questions were directed toward me at the various conferences. mr. specter. and to those leading questions you have said here today that you responded that a number of possibilities were present as to what might have happened? dr. perry. that's correct. i had no way of ascertaining, as i said, the true trajectory. often questions were directed as to--in such a manner as this: "doctor, is it possible that if he were in such and such a position and the bullet entered here, could it have done that?" and my reply, "of course, if it were possible, yes, that is possible, but similarly, it did not have to be so, necessarily." mr. specter. so that, from the physical characteristics which you observed in and of themselves, you could not come to any conclusive opinion? dr. perry. no, sir; i could not, although i have been quoted, i think, as saying, and i might add parenthetically, out of context, without the preceding question which had been directed, as saying that such was the case, when actually, i only admitted that the possibility existed. mr. specter. and in the hypothetical of the rather extended nature that i just gave you that your statement that that is consistent with what you found, is that also predicated upon the veracity of the factors, which i have asked you to assume? dr. perry. that is correct, sir. i have no way to authenticate either by my own knowledge. mr. specter. has your recollection of the nature of the president's neck wound changed at any time from november to the present time? dr. perry. no, sir. i recall describing it initially as being between and cm. in size and roughly spherical in shape, not unlike a rather large puncture wound, i believe is the word i used initially. mr. specter. have you ever changed your opinion on the possible alternatives as to what could have caused the president's wounds? dr. perry. no, sir; i have no knowledge even now of my own as to the cause of the wounds. all i can report on is what i saw, and the wound is that as i have described it. it could have been caused conceivably by any number of objects. mr. specter. so, that the wound that you saw on the president's neck would be consistent with an exit wound under the factors that i described to you? dr. perry. yes. mr. specter. or, it might be consistent with an entry wound under a different set of factors? dr. perry. that's correct, sir. i, myself, have no knowledge of that. i do not think that it is consistent, for example, with an exit wound of a large expanded bullet--voluntarily i would add that. mr. specter. well, would a jacketed . -mm. bullet fit the description of a large expanded bullet? dr. perry. no, sir; it would not. mr. specter. based on the information in the autopsy report about a - by -mm. hole in the lower part of the president's skull on the right side in conjunction with the large part of the skull of the president which you observed to be missing, would you have an opinion as to the source of the missile which inflicted those wounds? dr. perry. since i did not see the initial wound which you mentioned, the smaller one, and only saw the large avulsive wound of the head and the scalp, there is no way for me to determine from whence it came. mr. specter. well, if you assume the presence of the first small wound, taking as a fact that there was such a wound, now, would that present sufficient information for you to formulate an opinion as to source or trajectory? dr. perry. well, i couldn't testify as to exact source, but if the wound, the smaller wound that you noted were present, it could certainly result in the large avulsive wound as it exited from the skull. as to the ultimate source, there would still be no way for me to tell. mr. specter. well, could you tell sufficient to comment on whether it came from the front or back of the president? dr. perry. in the absence of other wounds of the head, the presence of the small wound which you described, in addition to the large avulsive wound of the skull and the scalp which i observed would certainly indicate that the two were related and would indicate both an entrance and an exit wound, if there were no other wounds. mr. specter. and which would be the wound of entrance, then? dr. perry. the smaller wound--the smaller wound. mr. specter. now, did you have occasion to talk via the telephone with dr. james j. humes of the bethesda naval hospital? dr. perry. i did. mr. specter. and will you relate the circumstances of the calls indicating first the time when they occurred. dr. perry. dr. humes called me twice on friday afternoon, separated by about -minute intervals, as i recall. the first one, i, somehow think i recall the first one must have been around hours, but i'm not real sure about that; i'm not positive of that at all, actually. mr. specter. could it have been saturday morning? dr. perry. saturday morning--was it? it's possible. i remember talking with him twice. i was thinking it was shortly thereafter. mr. specter. well, the record will show. dr. perry. oh, sure, it was saturday morning--yes. mr. specter. what made you change your view of that? dr. perry. you mean friday? mr. specter. did some specific recollection occur to you which changed your view from friday to saturday? dr. perry. no, i was trying to place where i was at that time--friday afternoon, and at that particular time, when i paused to think about it, i was actually up in the operating suite at that time, when i thought that he called initially. i seem to remember it being friday, for some reason. mr. specter. where were you when you received those calls? dr. perry. i was in the administrator's office here when he called. mr. specter. and what did he ask you, if anything? dr. perry. he inquired about, initially, about the reasons for my doing a tracheotomy, and i replied, as i have to you, during this procedure, that there was a wound in the lower anterior third of the neck, which was exuding blood and was indicative of a possible tracheal injury underlying, and i did the tracheotomy through a transverse incision made through that wound, and i described to him the right lateral injury to the trachea and the completion of the operation. he subsequently called back--at that time he told me, of course, that he could not talk to me about any of it and asked that i keep it in confidence, which i did, and he subsequently called back and inquired about the chest tubes, and why they were placed and i replied in part as i have here. it was somewhat more detailed. after having talked to drs. baxter and peters and i identified them as having placed it in the second interspace, anteriorly, in the midclavicular line, in the right hemithorax, he asked me at that time if we had made any wounds in the back. i told him that i had not examined the back nor had i knowledge of any wounds of the back. mr. specter. would you relate the circumstances surrounding an article which appeared about you in the saturday evening post, dr. perry? dr. perry. the saturday evening post contacted the department of surgery here, and talked with dr. tom shires, chief of surgical services, in regard to a possible article on the treatment of the president. this was declined by us, and we requested that no such article be printed, and dr. shires informed me shortly thereafter about this conversation. subsequently, an article was printed, which apparently was a copyrighted item. it first appeared in the new york herald tribune. it contained my picture and a picture of trauma room no. , and described the incidents surrounding the treatment of the president. some of that information was obtained by personal interview of myself and dr. shires on saturday morning, and i assume that the rest of it was obtained from various people here. mr. specter. was the content of that story accurate? dr. perry. there were certain inaccuracies--the overall content was fairly consistent--there were inaccuracies in identification of participants and there were some inaccuracies in regards to conversations purported to have been held, and i do not, however, have knowledge about some of the other references made in the article, since they were apparently based on interviews with people other than myself. mr. specter. dr. perry, have you talked to any representatives of the federal government about this matter prior to today? dr. perry. yes, i have. mr. specter. would you relate whom you have talked to and on what occasions? as best you can recollect it. dr. perry. well, i talked to several people, and i regret that i did not keep a record of it, and i find at this time that a lot of these things such as dr. humes' call, i suppose i should have kept a little better record, since everything was so kaleidoscopic that i have a very difficult time putting the proper sequence on it. i talked to several people who identified themselves both by name and with credentials as being affiliated with the secret service. mr. specter. on how many occasions have you talked with secret service personnel? dr. perry. at least three times, sir. now, i can't give you the exact dates of these, and unfortunately the last two gentlemen, i can't even remember their names now. mr. specter. how about the first gentleman? dr. perry. no, his either. i was trying to think of the last two. i indicated that they both had the same last name, but at the present time it escapes me. mr. specter. what did you tell them in essence? dr. perry. essentially what i have told you in regard to my impressions and my care of the president. mr. specter. has there ever been any variation in the information which you have given the federal investigators? dr. perry. no, sir; not in essence. there may have been a variation in wording or sequence of my presentation, but the treatment as i outlined it to you and as i outlined it to them, to the best of my knowledge, has been essentially consistent. mr. specter. have you talked to any other representatives of the federal government besides the secret service men? dr. perry. i talked to two gentlemen initially within--who identified themselves as being with the federal bureau of investigation. i do not recall their names either. mr. specter. what did they ask you about? dr. perry. essentially the same questions in regard to what i might speculate as to the origin of the missiles and their trajectory, and i replied to them as i have to you that i could not ascertain this of my own knowledge, and described the wounds to the extent i saw them. mr. specter. have you set forth here today the same information which you gave to the fbi? dr. perry. yes, i think this is considerably in more detail, being essentially the same thing. mr. specter. have you now told me about all of the talks you have had with representatives of the federal government prior to today? dr. perry. i think i have. mr. specter. and did you and i sit down and talk about the purpose of this deposition and the questions which i would be asking you on the record, before this deposition started? dr. perry. yes; we did. mr. specter. and did you give me the same information which you provided on the record here today? dr. perry. i have. mr. specter. do you have anything to add which you think might be helpful in any way to the president's commission? dr. perry. no, sir. mr. specter. dr. perry, we appreciate your coming for your deposition today, and i have given you a letter requesting your presence in washington on monday morning at o'clock and i would ask you, for the record, to acknowledge receipt of letter, if you will, please. dr. perry. yes; i have the letter here and i will be there. mr. specter. thank you, very much, sir. let me ask you one more question, dr. perry, for the record, before we terminate this deposition. what experience have you had, if any, with gunshot wounds? dr. perry. i think in the course of my training here at parkland, which is a city-county hospital and handles the great majority of the trauma cases that occur in dallas county, that i have seen a fairly considerable number of traumatic wounds caused by knives, automobile accidents, gunshot wounds of various types. mr. specter. have you had any experience with gunshot wounds, in addition to that obtained here at parkland? dr. perry. you mean, in the service? mr. specter. yes, sir. dr. perry. no, i had occasion to see only one gunshot wound while i was in the service. mr. specter. can you estimate how many gunshot wounds you have seen while you have been at parkland? dr. perry. probably it would be numbered in the hundreds. mr. specter. have you had any formal training in ballistics? dr. perry. no, other than the fact that i do some hunting and amateur hand loader. mr. specter. amateur what? dr. perry. amateur hand loader--hand load ammunition. mr. specter. thank you very much. dr. perry. all right. thank you. testimony of dr. william kemp clark the testimony of dr. william kemp clark was taken at : a.m., on march , , at parkland memorial hospital, dallas, tex., by mr. arlen specter, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. specter. would you stand up please, dr. clark, and raise your right hand? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give before the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? dr. clark. i do. mr. specter. you may be seated. dr. clark. thank you. mr. specter. the president's commission is investigating all facts related to the assassination of president kennedy, and you have been asked to testify in this deposition proceeding relating to the medical treatment received by president kennedy at parkland memorial hospital and all facts incident thereto. dr. clark, have you received a letter from the president's commission enclosing a copy of the executive order establishing the commission and a copy of a senate and house joint resolution about the commission, and a letter relating to the taking of testimony by the commission? dr. clark. i have. mr. specter. and are you willing to proceed with this deposition today, even though days have not elapsed between the time you received the letter and this morning? dr. clark. yes. mr. specter. would you state your full name for the record, please? dr. clark. william kemp clark. mr. specter. will you outline in a general way your educational background, please? dr. clark. yes. i graduated from the university of texas in austin, . i graduated from the university of texas medical branch at galveston in . i interned at indiana university medical center and was a resident in surgery there from to . i spent years in the air force and then took my residency in neurological surgery at columbia presbyterian hospital in new york city. this was from to , at which time i came to the university of texas, southwestern medical school, as chairman of the division of neurological surgery. would you like the professional qualifications? mr. specter. yes; may i have the professional qualifications in summary form, if you will, please. dr. clark. i am board certified by the american board of neurological surgery. i am a fellow with the american college of surgeons. i am a member of the harvey cushing society. mr. specter. what is the harvey cushing society, by the way? dr. clark. it is the largest society of neurological surgeons in the world. mr. specter. and what do your duties consist of with respect to the southwestern medical school of the university of texas? dr. clark. i am in charge of the division of neurological surgery and carry the responsibility of administering this department or this division, to arrange the instruction of medical students in neurological surgery and to conduct research in this field. mr. specter. what were your duties back on november , ? dr. clark. essentially these. i also, as chairman of the division, have the responsibility as director of neurological surgery at parkland memorial hospital which is the major teaching hospital of the medical school. mr. specter. did you receive notification on november , , that the president had been wounded and was en route to this hospital? dr. clark. yes, sir; i did. mr. specter. do you know at approximately what time you got that notification? dr. clark. approximately : or : . mr. specter. and what action, if any, did you take as a result of receiving that notification? dr. clark. i went immediately to the emergency room at parkland hospital. i was in the laboratory at southwestern medical school when this word reached me by phone from the hospital. mr. specter. and at approximately what time did you then arrive at the emergency room? dr. clark. i would estimate it took a minute and a half to two minutes, so i would guess that i arrived approximately : . mr. specter. and who was present, if anyone, upon your arrival, attending to the president? dr. clark. dr. jenkins, that is m. t. jenkins, i suppose i ought to say, dr. ronald jones, dr. malcolm perry, dr. james carrico; arriving either with me or immediately thereafter were dr. robert mcclelland, dr. paul peters, and dr. charles baxter. mr. specter. what did you observe the president's condition to be on your arrival there? dr. clark. the president was lying on his back on the emergency cart. dr. perry was performing a tracheotomy. there were chest tubes being inserted. dr. jenkins was assisting the president's respirations through a tube in his trachea. dr. jones and dr. carrico were administering fluids and blood intravenously. the president was making a few spasmodic respiratory efforts. i assisted in withdrawing the endotracheal tube from the throat as dr. perry was then ready to insert the tracheotomy tube. i then examined the president briefly. my findings showed his pupils were widely dilated, did not react to light, and his eyes were deviated outward with a slight skew deviation. i then examined the wound in the back of the president's head. this was a large, gaping wound in the right posterior part, with cerebral and cerebellar tissue being damaged and exposed. there was considerable blood loss evident on the carriage, the floor, and the clothing of some of the people present. i would estimate , cc. of blood being present. as i was examining the president's wound, i felt for a carotid pulse and felt none. therefore, i began external cardiac massage and asked that a cardiotachioscope be connected. because of my position it was difficult to administer cardiac massage. however, dr. jones stated that he felt a femoral pulse. mr. specter. what is a femoral pulse? dr. clark. a femoral artery is the main artery going to the legs, and at the junction of the leg and the trunk you can feel the arterial pulsation in this artery. because of my position, cardiac massage was taken over by dr. malcolm perry, who was more advantageously situated. mr. specter. what did the cardiotachioscope show at that time? dr. clark. by this time the cardiotachioscope, we just call it a cardiac monitor for a better word---- mr. specter. that's a good word. dr. clark. the cardiotachioscope had been attached and dr. fouad bashour had arrived. there was transient electrical activity of the president's heart of an undefined type. approximately, at this time the external cardiac massage became ineffectual and no pulsations could be felt. at this time it was decided to pronounce the president dead. mr. specter. at what time was this fixed? dr. clark. death was fixed at p.m. mr. specter. was that a precise time or an approximate time, or in what way did you fix the time of death at o'clock? dr. clark. this was an approximation as it is, first, extremely difficult to state precisely when death occurs. secondly, no one was monitoring the clock, so an approximation of o'clock was chosen. mr. specter. who was it who actually fixed the time of death? dr. clark. i did. mr. specter. and did you have any part in the filling out of the death certificate? dr. clark. yes. mr. specter. and what did you do with respect to that? dr. clark. i filled out the death certificate at the request of dr. george burkley, the president's physician at the white house, signed the death certificate as a registered physician in the state of texas, and gave this to him to accompany the body to washington. mr. specter. did you advise anyone else in the presidential party of the death of the president? dr. clark. yes; i told mrs. kennedy, the president's wife, of his death. mr. specter. and what, if anything, did she respond to you? dr. clark. she told me that she knew it and thanked me for our efforts. mr. specter. were any bullets or parts of bullets found in the president's body? dr. clark. not by me, nor did i see any such missiles recovered at parkland hospital. mr. specter. were you a part of any press conference which followed on the day of the assassination? dr. clark. yes, sir; i was. mr. specter. and who made the arrangements for the press conference? dr. clark. mr. malcolm kilduff, the presidential press secretary. mr. specter. at what time did the press conference occur? dr. clark. approximately : . mr. specter. where was it held? dr. clark. it was held in room - , parkland hospital. mr. specter. what mechanical instruments were used, if any, by the press at the conference? dr. clark. tape recorders and television cameras, as well as the usual note pads and pencils, and so forth. mr. specter. and who was interviewed during the course of the press conference and photographed? dr. clark. dr. malcolm perry and myself. mr. specter. no one else? dr. clark. no. mr. specter. what, if anything, did you say then in the course of that press conference? dr. clark. i described the president's wound in his head in very much the same way as i have described it here. i was asked if this wound was an entrance wound, an exit wound, or what, and i said it could be an exit wound, but i felt it was a tangential wound. mr. specter. which wound did you refer to at this time? dr. clark. the wound in the head. mr. specter. did you describe at that time what you meant by "tangential"? dr. clark. yes, sir; i did. mr. specter. what definition of "tangential" did you make at that time? dr. clark. as i remember, i defined the word "tangential" as being--striking an object obliquely, not squarely or head on. mr. specter. will you describe at this time in somewhat greater detail the consequences of a tangential wound as contrasted with another type of a striking? dr. clark. let me begin by saying that the damage suffered by an organ when struck by a bullet or other missile---- mr. specter. may the record show that i interrupted the deposition for about minutes to ascertain what our afternoon schedule would be here because the regular administration office ordinarily closes at o'clock, which was just about minutes ago, and then we resumed the deposition of dr. clark as he was discussing the concept of tangential and other types of striking. go ahead, doctor. dr. clark. the effects of any missile striking an organ or a function of the energy which is shed by the missile in passing through this organ when a bullet strikes the head, if it is able to pass through rapidly without shedding any energy into the brain, little damage results, other than that part of the brain which is directly penetrated by the missile. however, if it strikes the skull at an angle, it must then penetrate much more bone than normal, therefore, is likely to shed more energy, striking the brain a more powerful blow. secondly, in striking the bone in this manner, it may cause pieces of the bone to be blown into the brain and thus act as secondary missiles. finally, the bullet itself may be deformed and deflected so that it would go through or penetrate parts of the brain, not in the usual direct line it was proceeding. mr. specter. now, referring back to the press conference, did you define a tangential wound at that time? dr. clark. yes. mr. specter. and what else did you state at the press conference at : on november ? dr. clark. i stated that the president had lost considerable blood, that one of the contributing causes of death was this massive blood loss, that i was unable to state how many wounds the president had sustained or from what angle they could have come. i finally remember stating that the president's wound was obviously a massive one and was insurvivable. mr. specter. what did dr. perry say at that time, during the course of that press conference, when the cameras were operating? dr. clark. as i recall, dr. perry stated that there was a small wound in the president's throat, that he made the incision for the tracheotomy through this wound. he discovered that the trachea was deviated so he felt that the missile had entered the president's chest. he asked for chest tubes then to be placed in the pleural cavities. he was asked if this wound in the throat was an entrance wound or an exit wound. he said it was small and clean so it could have been an entrance wound. mr. specter. did he say anything else that you can recollect now in response to the question of whether it was a wound of entrance or exit? dr. clark. no, sir; i cannot recall. mr. specter. were you a part of a second press conference, dr. clark? dr. clark. yes, sir. mr. specter. and when did that second press conference occur? dr. clark. on saturday, the d. mr. specter. at about what time? dr. clark. sometime in the morning, as i recall. mr. specter. going back to the first press conference for just a minute, which television networks were involved on that? dr. clark. without sounding facetious, everyone, including some i had never heard of. mr. specter. can you recollect any besides the three major networks--abc, cbs, and nbc? dr. clark. this is all i remember. i remember seeing in the room two reporters from dallas newspapers whom i know and the radio and television stations were also present. mr. specter. now, going back to the second conference which i had started asking you about, had you had an opportunity to tell me what time of day that was? dr. clark. it was in the morning, as i recall. mr. specter. and what television stations or networks were involved in that conference? dr. clark. again, all three major networks, and i believe through our local affiliates. it does not seem as though this one was as jammed and as full as the first one. mr. specter. and who arranged that press conference? dr. clark. that press conference was arranged by mr. steve landregan, assistant administrator and public relations officer for the hospital. this is his office. mr. specter. and who spoke at that press conference while the television cameras were grinding? dr. clark. dr. perry and myself. mr. specter. and what did you say at that time? dr. clark. essentially the same thing as i had on the first press conference, again defining tangential, and again describing the president's wound as being massive and unsurvivable. mr. specter. and what did dr. perry, at that time, say? dr. clark. dr. perry said very little. he described the president's condition as he first saw him, when he was first called, and he described the manner in which he was called to the emergency room. mr. specter. did he say anything about whether the neck wound was a point of entry or exit? dr. clark. i do not remember--i specifically discussed this--may i add something to what i said in the first press conference? mr. specter. yes; please do, if you find something that comes to mind, please feel free to add that. dr. clark. all right. let me check what i remember dr. perry said at the first press conference. he was asked if the neck wound could be a wound of entrance or appeared to be a wound of exit, and dr. perry said something like "possibly or conceivably," or something of this sort. mr. specter. and, did he elaborate as to how that projectory would have been possible in that press conference? dr. clark. he did not elaborate on this. one of the reporters with gestures indicated the direction that such a bullet would have to take, and dr. perry quite obviously had to agree that this is the way it had to go to get from there to the top of his head. mr. specter. but that was a possible trajectory under the circumstances? dr. clark. yes. mr. specter. how would that have been postulated in terms of striking specific parts of the body? dr. clark. well, on a speculation, this would mean that the missile would have had to have been fired from below--upward or that the president was hanging upside down. me. specter. did dr. perry discuss anything with you prior to that second conference about a telephone call from washington, d.c.? dr. clark. yes; he did. mr. specter. would you relate briefly what dr. perry told you about that subject? dr. clark. yes; dr. perry stated that he had talked to the bethesda naval hospital on two occasions that morning and that he knew what the autopsy findings had shown and that he did not wish to be questioned by the press, as he had been asked by bethesda to confine his remarks to that which he knew from having examined the president, and suggested that the major part of this press conference be conducted by me. mr. specter. was anyone else present when he expressed those thoughts to you? dr. clark. i believe that mr. price and dr. shires were present. i could be wrong on that. mr. specter. now, were you a part of a third press conference? dr. clark. yes, sir. mr. specter. and when did that occur? dr. clark. during the following week--i have forgotten exactly the day. mr. specter. and what networks were involved at that time? dr. clark. it was cbs. mr. specter. was that a television conference? dr. clark. yes; this was filmed. mr. specter. and who arranged that conference? dr. clark. again, mr. landregan. mr. specter. and who spoke at that conference? dr. clark. dr. shaw, dr. shires, dr. baxter, dr. mcclelland, dr. jenkins, dr. gieseke, and myself. mr. specter. was dr. perry there at that time? dr. clark. yes; dr. perry was there. mr. specter. would you outline briefly what you said at that time, if it differed in any way from what you said before? dr. clark. no, sir; it did not. mr. specter. what did dr. perry say at that time? dr. clark. essentially the same thing that he had said before, describing the wound in the throat, describing the condition of the president, how he was called and so forth. mr. specter. did he comment at that time as to whether it was an entrance wound or an exit wound or what? dr. clark. i don't remember. mr. specter. and what did dr. shaw say at that time? dr. clark. dr. shaw described governor connally's chest wound. he described what was done for him, the operation in some detail. he described the fact that governor connally was conscious up until the time he was anesthetized in the operating room. mr. specter. and what did dr. shires say at that time? dr. clark. dr. shires described the wounds suffered by oswald and what was done in an attempt to save him. mr. specter. and how about dr. gieseke, what did he say? dr. clark. dr. gieseke corroborated dr. shaw's statements regarding governor connally's condition and his remaining conscious until he was anesthetized by dr. gieseke. mr. specter. what did dr. baxter say at that conference? dr. clark. dr. baxter described president kennedy's condition as he saw it, stated that he had assisted in the placing in the chest tubes on president kennedy, and that he had been present at oswald's operation. mr. specter. did dr. baxter describe the neck wound that president kennedy suffered with specific respect as to whether it was point of entry or exit? dr. clark. i don't remember--i don't believe he did. mr. specter. now, have we covered all the doctors who spoke at that press conference? dr. clark. except dr. jenkins. mr. specter. and what did dr. jenkins say at that time? dr. clark. dr. jenkins described being called to attend president kennedy, how he got there with his anesthesia machine, that he found an endotracheal tube had already been inserted. he hooked up and he described the activities in the emergency room, operating room no. , and he described the stopping of the president's heart and the decision to pronounce him dead. he went ahead to describe the operation on mr. oswald and the extent of blood loss, etc., which he had sustained. mr. specter. now, were you involved in still a subsequent press conference? dr. clark. yes, sir; i was. mr. specter. and with whom was that press conference? dr. clark. this was with nbc and was approximately weeks after the assassination. mr. specter. and who arranged that press conference? dr. clark. mr. landregan. mr. specter. and was that filmed? dr. clark. yes, that was also filmed. mr. specter. and who spoke at that time? dr. clark. i spoke alone as a representative of the department and so stated in the conference. mr. specter. and what did you say at that time? dr. clark. essentially the same thing as had been stated before. mr. specter. now, were you a part of still another press conference? dr. clark. yes. mr. specter. when was that? dr. clark. the week after the assassination. mr. specter. and with whom was that press conference? dr. clark. with bbc. mr. specter. who arranged that? dr. clark. mr. landregan, again. mr. specter. and did anyone else participate in that press conference with you? dr. clark. no. mr. specter. and was that televised, filmed, or simply recorded? dr. clark. it was simply recorded. mr. specter. and what did you say at that time? dr. clark. exactly the same thing as i have said at the previous conferences, describing the president's condition, his wound, and what transpired after i arrived. mr. specter. at any of the press conferences were you asked about a hole on the left side of the president's head? dr. clark. yes. mr. specter. at which conference or conferences? dr. clark. i was asked about this at the cbs conference and i stated that i personally saw no such wound. mr. specter. and who asked you about it at that time, if you recall? dr. clark. the man who was conducting the conference. this was brought up by one of the physicians, i think dr. mcclelland, that there was some discussion of such a wound. mr. specter. did dr. mcclelland say that he had seen such a wound? dr. clark. no. mr. specter. what was the origin, if you know, as to the inquiry on the wound, that is, who suggested that there might have been a wound on the left side? dr. clark. i don't recall--i don't recall. mr. specter. had there been some comment that the priests made a comment that there was a wound on the left side of the head? dr. clark. i heard this subsequently from one of the reporters who attended the press conference with nbc. mr. specter. were priests actually in trauma room ? dr. clark. yes, sir. mr. specter. where were they in relation to the president at that time? dr. clark. they were on the right side of the president's body. mr. specter. now, you described the massive wound at the top of the president's head, with the brain protruding; did you observe any other hole or wound on the president's head? dr. clark. no, sir; i did not. mr. specter. did you observe, to make my question very specific, a bullet hole or what appeared to be a bullet hole in the posterior scalp, approximately . cm. laterally to the right, slightly above the external occipital protuberant, measuring by mm. dr. clark. no, sir; i did not. this could have easily been hidden in the blood and hair. mr. specter. did you observe any bullet wounds or any other wound on the back side of the president? dr. clark. no, sir; i did not. mr. specter. was the president ever turned over while he was in the emergency room? dr. clark. not in my presence; no, sir. mr. specter. and did you leave before, with, or after all the other doctors who were in attendance? dr. clark. i left after all the other doctors who were in attendance, because i stayed with dr. burkley until we had the death certificate signed and the arrangements had been made to transport the president's body out of parkland hospital. mr. specter. you say dr. burkley or buckley? dr. clark. dr. burkley. mr. specter. that's the president's private physician? dr. clark. yes. mr. specter. dr. clark, would your observations be consistent with some other alleged facts in this matter, such as the presence of a lateral wound measuring by mm. on the posterior scalp approximately . cm. laterally to the right and slightly above the external occipital proturberant--that is to say, could such a hole have been present without your observing it? dr. clark. yes, in the presence of this much destruction of skull and scalp above such a wound and lateral to it and the brief period of time available for examination--yes, such a wound could be present. mr. specter. the physicians, surgeons who examined the president at the autopsy specifically, commander james j. humes, h-u-m-e-s (spelling); commander j. thornton boswell, b-o-s-w-e-l-l (spelling), and lt. col. pierre a. finck, f-i-n-c-k (spelling), expressed the joint opinion that the wound which i have just described as being by mm. and . cm. to the right and slightly above the external occipital protuberant was a point of entrance of a bullet in the president's head at a time when the president's head was moved slightly forward with his chin dropping into his chest, when he was riding in an open car at a slightly downhill position. with those facts being supplied to them in a hypothetical fashion, they concluded that the bullet would have taken a more or less straight course, exiting from the center of the president's skull at a point indicated by an opening from three portions of the skull reconstructed, which had been brought to them--would those findings and those conclusions be consistent with your observations if you assumed the additional facts which i have brought to your attention, in addition to those which you have personally observed? dr. clark. yes, sir. mr. specter. dr. clark, in the line of your specialty, could you comment as to the status of the president with respect to competency, had he been able to survive the head injuries which you have described and the total wound which he had? dr. clark. this, of course, is a question of tremendous importance. just let me state that the loss of cerebrellar tissue would probably have been of minimal consequence in the performance of his duties. the loss of the right occipital and probably part of the right parietal lobes would have been of specific importance. this would have led to a visual field deficit, which would have interfered in a major way with his ability to read, not the interpretation of reading matter per se, but the acquisition of information from the printed page. he would have had specific difficulty with finding the next line in a book or paper. this would have proven to be a specific handicap in getting information on which, as the president of the united states, he would have to act. how much damage he would have had to his motor system, that is, the ability to control or coordinate his left extremities, i would not know. this conceivably could have been a problem in enabling him to move about, to appear in public, et cetera. finally, and probably most important, since the brain, as far as at its higher levels, largely as a unit, the loss of this much brain tissue likely would have impaired his ability in abstract reasoning, imagination; whereas, the part of the president's brain struck is not that part specifically concerned with these matters. the effect of loss of considerable brain tissue does affect the total performance of the organ in these matters. there would be grave doubts in my mind as to our ability as physicians to give a clear answer regarding his ability to function as president of the united states. our ability to judge this is sometimes sorely tried when dealing with people with considerably less intellectual and moral demands made upon them. mr. specter. doctor, did you prepare certain written reports based on your participation in the treatment of president kennedy? dr. clark. yes, sir; i did. mr. specter. and i now show you a document which has been supplied to the president's commission, which we have marked as commission exhibit no. , and i now show you the second and third sheets, which purport to be the summary made by you and ask if that was prepared by you? dr. clark. yes, sir; it was. mr. specter. and, are the facts set forth in those two sheets true and correct? dr. clark. yes, sir. mr. specter. and i now show you a - / -page summary which purports to bear your signature, being dated november , , and i ask you if that, in fact, is your signature? dr. clark. yes; it is. mr. specter. and, was, in fact, this report made in your own hand concerning the treatment which you rendered to the president? dr. clark. yes, sir. mr. specter. and are the facts set forth therein true and correct? dr. clark. yes, sir. mr. specter. have you made any other written report or other writings of any sort concerning this matter? dr. clark. no; i have not. mr. specter. have you been interviewed or discussed this matter with any federal representative prior to today? dr. clark. yes, sir; i have. mr. specter. and whom did you talk to? dr. clark. i talked to an fbi agent a few days after the assassination, in mr. jack price's office. mr. specter. and who is mr. price, for the record at this point? dr. clark. he is the administrator of parkland memorial hospital. this agent asked me if i had recovered any missiles or fragments of missiles from the president's body. i said i did not, and he asked me if i knew of anyone in parkland hospital who had recovered such evidence and i assured him i did not. mr. specter. did he ask you anything further? dr. clark. no, sir. mr. specter. did you tell him anything further? dr. clark. no, sir. i offered to answer any questions he might have asked and he said that was all he wished to know. mr. specter. and did you talk to any other representative of the federal government at any time before today? dr. clark. yes; i talked to a member of the secret service approximately a month after the assassination. i talked to him on two occasions, once by phone, and he asked me if i had a copy of the written report submitted by dr. ronald jones, and i told him i did not. i subsequently talked to him in person. he showed me the summary that i prepared and sent to dr. burkley, the same document i just identified here, and my own handwritten report of the events of the afternoon of the d of november. he asked me if i prepared these and i told him i had. he asked me if i had any other written records. i told him i did not. he said, "do you have any additional information than you have written?" i said i did not. he thanked me very much for coming. mr. specter. have you now summarized all of the conversations you have had with any representative of the federal government prior to today? dr. clark. yes, sir. mr. specter. and have you had any conversations with any representative of the state government prior to today? dr. clark. no, sir. mr. specter. before you were sworn in to have your deposition taken, did you and i have a discussion about this matter? dr. clark. yes, sir; a pleasant discussion of what the function of this commission is. mr. specter. and, also, all of what i would be asking once the record was open and we started taking your deposition? dr. clark. yes, sir. mr. specter. and have we covered on the record with the court reporter transcribing all the subjects which you and i discussed informally and prior to the start of the more formal session here? dr. clark. yes, sir. mr. specter. do you have anything which you would care to add, which you think might possibly be helpful to the commission in any way, dr. clark? dr. clark. no, sir; i'm afraid i don't. mr. specter. thank you very much for coming. we surely appreciate it, dr. clark. thank you, dr. clark. dr. clark. thank you. testimony of dr. kemp clark resumed the testimony of dr. kemp clark was taken at : p.m., on march , , at parkland memorial hospital, dallas, tex., by mr. arlen specter, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. specter. may the record show that dr. kemp clark has returned to have a few additional questions asked of him following the deposition which was taken on march . dr. clark, the purpose of this additional deposition is the same as the first one, except that i am going to ask you a few additional questions based upon a translation of an article which appeared in "l' express", which has been provided to me since the deposition of last saturday. would you please stand up again and raise your right hand? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give before the president's commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? dr. clark. i do. mr. specter. dr. clark, i have made available to you, have i not, what purports to be a translation from french of the "l' express" issue of february , ? dr. clark. yes, sir. mr. specter. and let me read for the record and for you this excerpt. "on his part according to the new york times of november , 'dr. kemp clark, who signed the kennedy death certificate, declared that a bullet hit him right where the knot of his necktie was.' he added," apparently referring to you, "'this bullet penetrated into his chest and did not come out'. the surgeon went on to say that the second wound of the president was 'tangential' and that it had been caused by a bullet which hit 'the right side of his head'". dr. clark, my first question is--what, if anything, did you say to a new york times representative or anyone, for that matter, with respect to whether a bullet hit the president where the knot of his necktie was. dr. clark. i remember using the phrase to describe the location of a wound in the president's throat as being at the point of his knot of his necktie. i do not recall ever specifically stating that this was an entrance wound, as has been said before. i was not present when the president arrived and did not see this wound. if any statement regarding its entrance or exit was made by me, it was indicating that there was a small wound described there by the physicians who first saw the president. a specific quotation regarding entrance or exit, i feel, is a partial quotation or incompletely quoted from me. the part pertaining to the bullet entering the president's chest rests on the reasons for the placing of the chest tubes which were being inserted when i arrived. it was the assumption, based on the previously described deviation of the trachea and the presence of blood in the strap muscles of the neck that a wound or missile wound might have entered the president's chest. mr. specter. well, what was there, dr. clark, in the deviation of the trachea and the presence of blood in the strap muscles of the neck which so indicated? dr. clark. assuming that a missile had entered the pleural space, if there had been bleeding into the pleural space, the trachea would have been deviated or had there been leakage of air into the pleural space, the trachea would have been deviated, as it is the main conduit of air to the two lungs. collapse of a lung would have produced, or will produce deviation of the trachea. there being a wound in the throat, there being blood in the strap muscles and there being deviation of the trachea in the presence of a grievously wounded patient without opportunity for x-ray or other diagnostic measures, dr. perry assumed that the findings in the neck were due to penetration of the missile into the chest. for this reason, he requested chest tubes to be placed. mr. specter. well, is the deviation of the trachea and the presence of bleeding on the strap muscles of the neck and the other factors which you have recited equally consistent with a wound of exit on the neck? dr. clark. yes, sir. furthermore, let me say that the presence of the deviation of the trachea, with blood in the strap muscles, are by no means diagnostic of penetration of the chest, and the placing of the chest tubes was prophylactic had such an eventuality occurred. mr. specter. was there any external indication that there was a missile in the chest? dr. clark. no, sir. mr. specter. was it the preliminary thought that the missile might have been in the chest by virtue of the fact that this wound was noted on the neck? dr. clark. yes; with the other factors i have enumerated. mr. specter. and at that time, not knowing what the angle might have been or any of the surrounding circumstances, then you proceeded to take precautionary measures as if there might have been a missile in the chest at some point? dr. clark. that is correct. measures were taken, assuming the worst had happened. mr. specter. as the quotation appears in the issue of "l' express," "this bullet penetrated into his chest and did not come out," would that then be an accurate quotation of something that you said, dr. clark? dr. clark. no, sir. mr. specter. dr. clark, while you are here again, i would like to ask you a few additional questions. let the record show that since i have taken your deposition, i have taken the depositions of many additional witnesses and none has been transcribed, so i am not in a position to refer to a record to see what i asked you before or to frankly recollect precisely what i asked you before, so, to some extent these questions may be overlapping. did you observe the president's back at that time when he was in the emergency room? dr. clark. no, sir. mr. specter. what was the reason for your not looking at his back? dr. clark. first, the duration of time that the president was alive in the emergency room was a brief duration. all efforts were bent toward saving his life rather than inspection for precise location of wounds. after his death it was not our position to try to evaluate all of the conceivable organs or areas of the body, knowing that an autopsy would be performed and that this would be far more meaningful than a cursory external examination here. mr. specter. was there any bleeding wound in the president's back? dr. clark. in the back of his head. mr. specter. but how about on the back of his body, was there any bleeding wound noted? dr. clark. since we did not turn the president over, i cannot answer that specifically. we saw none, as i previously stated. mr. specter. did you undertake any action to ascertain whether there had been a violation to a major extent of the back part of his body? dr. clark. no, sir. mr. specter. that is, none was taken by you personally? dr. clark. that's correct. mr. specter. dr. carrico testified earlier today, being the first doctor to reach him, that he felt the president's back to determine whether there was any major violation of that area. would that be a customary action to take to ascertain whether there was any major wound, by the doctor who first examined the patient? dr. clark. yes, sir. mr. specter. assuming that the president had a bullet wound of entry on the upper right posterior thorax, just above the upper border of the scapula, cms. from the right acromion process, cm. below the tip of the right mastoid process, would there have been a bloody type wound? dr. clark. i'm sorry--your question? mr. specter. would such a wound of entry by a missile traveling approximately , feet per second, approximately . mm. in diameter, cause a bloody type of a wound? dr. clark. no, sir. such a wound could have easily been overlooked in the presence of the much larger wound in the right occipital region of the president's skull, from which considerable blood loss had occurred which stained the back of his head, neck and upper shoulders. mr. specter. dr. clark, i want to ask you a question as it is raised here in "l' express". "how did the practitioner who signed the death certificate of the president fail to take the trouble to turn him over?" of course, that refers to you and will you give me your answer to that question, as the news media has posed it? dr. clark. quite simply, as i previously stated, the duration of time the president was alive was occupied by attempts to save his life. when these failed, further examination of the patient's body was not done, as it was felt that little could be gained or learned that would be helpful in deciding the course of events leading up to his assassination, that is, examination by me, as i knew an autopsy would be performed which would be far more meaningful and revealing than any cursory external examination conducted in the emergency room by me. mr. specter. now, was the action taken by you in signing the death certificate based upon the examination which you made in accordance with what you believed to be good medical practice? dr. clark. yes, sir. mr. specter. so that the characterization here of "l' express" that the failure to turn the president over would not constitute gross negligence in your professional judgment, as they have characterized it here. dr. clark. no, sir. one other point, if i may here? mr. specter. yes. dr. clark. in order to move the president's body to bethesda where the autopsy was to be performed, a death certificate had to be filled out in conformance with texas state law to allow the body to be transported. this is the second part of the signing of the death certificate. mr. specter. do you have anything to add, dr. clark, which you think might be helpful at all in the inquiry being made by the president's commission? dr. clark. no; i don't think so. mr. specter. and did you and i chat for just a moment or two about the questions i would ask you on this supplemental deposition before it went on the record? dr. clark. yes, sir. mr. specter. and have you talked to any representative of the federal government between the time i took your deposition last saturday and this wednesday morning? dr. clark. no, sir. mr. specter. thank you very much, dr. clark. dr. clark. all right. testimony of dr. robert nelson mcclelland the testimony of dr. robert nelson mcclelland was taken on march , , at parkland memorial hospital, dallas, tex., by mr. arlen specter, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. specter. will you raise your right hand? dr. mcclelland. yes. mr. specter. do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give in these proceedings will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? dr. mcclelland. i do. mr. specter. dr. mcclelland, the purpose of this proceeding is to take your deposition in connection with an investigation which is being conducted by the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy, and the specific purpose of our requesting you to answer questions relates to the topic of the medical care which president kennedy received at parkland memorial hospital. dr. mcclelland, will you tell us your full name for the record, please? dr. mcclelland. robert nelson mcclelland. mr. specter. have you received a letter from the commission which enclosed a copy of the executive order creating the commission, and a copy of the congressional resolution pertaining to the commission, and a copy of the procedures for taking testimony under the commission? dr. mcclelland. yes. mr. specter. and is it satisfactory with you to answer these questions for us today, even though you haven't had the days between the time of the receipt of the letter and today? dr. mcclelland. yes. mr. specter. what is your profession, doctor? dr. mcclelland. i am a doctor of medicine. mr. specter. would you outline briefly your educational background, starting with your graduation from college, please? dr. mcclelland. since graduation from college i attended medical school at the university of texas, medical branch in galveston, tex., and received the m.d. degree from that school in . i then went to kansas city, kans., where i did a rotating internship at the university of kansas medical center from june to june . following that period i was a general medical officer in the air force for years in germany, and subsequent to my release from active duty, i became a general surgery resident at parkland memorial hospital in dallas in august of . i remained at parkland from that date to august , at which time i entered private practice for ten months, and then reentered my general surgery training program at parkland in june . i completed my years of general surgical training in june . following that time i became a full-time instructor of surgery on the staff of the university of texas, southwestern medical school, and i am at the present time an associate professor of surgery at that school. mr. specter. dr. mcclelland, in connection with your duties at parkland hospital, or before, have you had any experience with gunshot wounds? dr. mcclelland. yes. mr. specter. where in your background did you acquire that experience? dr. mcclelland. largely during residency training and subsequent to that in my capacity here on the staff. mr. specter. and what has provided the opportunity for your experience here at parkland in residency training and on the staff with respect to acquiring knowledge of gunshot wounds? dr. mcclelland. largely this has been related to the type of hospital which parkland is; namely, city-county hospital which receives all of the indigent patients of this county, many of whom are involved frequently in shooting altercations, so that we do see a large number of that type patient almost daily. mr. specter. could you approximate for me the total number of gunshot wounds which you have had an opportunity to observe? dr. mcclelland. i would estimate that it would be in excess of . mr. specter. what was your duty assignment back on november , ? dr. mcclelland. at that time i was showing a film on surgical techniques to a group of students and residents on the second floor of parkland hospital in the surgical suite, where i was notified of the fact that president kennedy was being brought to the parkland emergency room after having been shot. mr. specter. and what action, if any, did you take following that notification? dr. mcclelland. immediately upon hearing that, i accompanied the resident, dr. crenshaw, who brought this news to me, to the emergency room, and down to the trauma room where president kennedy had been taken immediately upon arrival. mr. specter. and approximately what time did you arrive in emergency room ? dr. mcclelland. this is a mere approximation, but i would approximate or estimate, rather, about : . mr. specter. and who was present, if anyone, at the time of your arrival? dr. mcclelland. at the time i arrived, dr. perry--would you like the full names of all these? mr. specter. that would be fine, i would appreciate that. dr. mcclelland. dr. malcolm perry, dr. charles baxter, dr. charles crenshaw, dr. james carrico, dr. paul peters. mr. specter. were they all present at the time you arrived? dr. mcclelland. they were not present when i arrived. mr. specter. will you start with the ones who were present? dr. mcclelland. starting with the ones who were present, i'm sorry, the ones who were present when i arrived were drs. carrico, perry and baxter. the others i mentioned arrived subsequently or about the same time that i did. mr. specter. then, what other doctors, if any, arrived after you did, in addition to those whom you have already mentioned? dr. mcclelland. in addition, the ones that arrived afterwards, were dr. kenneth salyer. mr. specter. s-a-l-y-e-r? dr. mcclelland. s-a-l-y-e-r, dr. fouad, f-o-u-a-d bashour, dr. donald seldin---- mr. specter. s-e-l-d-i-n? dr. mcclelland. s-e-l-d-i-n--i believe that's all. mr. specter. what did you observe as to president kennedy's condition at that time? dr. mcclelland. well, on initially coming into the room and inspecting him from a distance of only or feet as i put on a pair of surgical gloves, it was obvious that he had sustained a probably mortal head injury, and that his face was extremely swollen and suffused with blood appeared cyanotic---- mr. specter. "cyanotic"--may i interrupt--just what do you mean by that in lay terms? dr. mcclelland. this mean bluish discoloration, bluish-black discoloration of the tissue. the eyes were somewhat protuberant, which is usually seen after massive head injuries denoting increased intracranial pressure, and it seemed that he perhaps was not making, at the time at least, spontaneous respiratory movements, but was receiving artificial respiration from a machine, an anesthesia machine. mr. specter. who was operating that machine? dr. mcclelland. the machine--there was a changeover, just as i came in, one of the doctors in the room, i don't recall which one, had been operating what we call an intermittent positive pressure breathing machine. mr. specter. had that machine been utilized prior to your arrival? dr. mcclelland. it was in use as i arrived, yes, and about the same time i arrived--this would be one other doctor who came in the room that i forgot about--dr. jenkins, m. t. jenkins, professor of anesthesiology, came into the room with a larger anesthesia machine, which is a better type machine with which to maintain control of respiration, and this was then attached to the tube in the president's tracheotom; anyway, respiratory movements were being made for him with these two machines, which were in the process of being changed when i came in. then, as i took my post to help with the tracheotomy, i was standing at the end of the stretcher on which the president was lying, immediately at his head, for purposes of holding a tracheotom, or a retractory in the neck line. mr. specter. what did you observe, if anything, as to the status of the neck wound when you first arrived? dr. mcclelland. the neck wound, when i first arrived, was at this time converted into a tracheotomy incision. the skin incision had been made by dr. perry, and he told me--although i did not see that--that he had made the incision through a very small, perhaps less than one quarter inch in diameter wound in the neck. mr. specter. do you recall whether he described it any more precisely than that? dr. mcclelland. he did not at that time. mr. specter. has he ever described it any more precisely for you? dr. mcclelland. he has since that time. mr. specter. and what description has he given of it since that time? dr. mcclelland. as well as i can recall, the description that he gave was essentially as i have just described, that it was a very small injury, with clear cut, although somewhat irregular margins of less than a quarter inch in diameter, with minimal tissue damage surrounding it on the skin. mr. specter. now, was there anything left for you to observe of that bullet wound, or had the incision obliterated it? dr. mcclelland. the incision had obliterated it, essentially, the skin portion, that is. mr. specter. before proceeding to describe what you did in connection with the tracheostomy, will you more fully describe your observation with respect to the head wound? dr. mcclelland. as i took the position at the head of the table that i have already described, to help out with the tracheotomy, i was in such a position that i could very closely examine the head wound, and i noted that the right posterior portion of the skull had been extremely blasted. it had been shattered, apparently, by the force of the shot so that the parietal bone was protruded up through the scalp and seemed to be fractured almost along its right posterior half, as well as some of the occipital bone being fractured in its lateral half, and this sprung open the bones that i mentioned in such a way that you could actually look down into the skull cavity itself and see that probably a third or so, at least, of the brain tissue, posterior cerebral tissue and some of the cerebellar tissue had been blasted out. there was a large amount of bleeding which was occurring mainly from the large venous channels in the skull which had been blasted open. mr. specter. was he alive at the time you first saw him? dr. mcclelland. i really couldn't say, because as i mentioned in the hectic activity--i really couldn't say what his blood pressure was or what his pulse was or anything of that sort. the only thing i could say that would perhaps give evidence--this is not vital activity--at most, is that maybe he made one or two spontaneous respiratory movements but it would be difficult to say, since the machine was being used on him, whether these were true spontaneous respirations or not. mr. specter. would you now describe the activity and part that you performed in the treatment which followed your arrival? dr. mcclelland. yes; as i say, all i did was simply assist dr. perry and dr. baxter in doing the tracheotomy. all three of us worked together in making an incision in the neck, tracting the neck muscles out of the way, and making a small opening into the trachea near the spot where the trachea had already been blasted or torn open by the fragment of the bullet, and inserting a large metal tracheotomy tube into this hole, and after this the breathing apparatus was attached to this instead of the previous tube which had been placed here. mr. specter. in conducting that operation, did you observe any interior damage to the president? dr. mcclelland. yes. mr. specter. will you describe that for me, please? dr. mcclelland. that damage consisted mainly of a large amount of contusion and hematoma formation in the tissue lateral to the right side of the trachea and the swelling and bleeding around this site was to such extent that the trachea was somewhat deviated to the left side, not a great deal, but to a degree at least that it required partial cutting of some of the neck muscles in order to get good enough exposure to put in the tracheotomy tube, but there was a good deal of soft tissue damage and damage to the trachea itself where apparently the missile had gone between the trachea on the right side and the strap muscles which were applied closely to it. mr. specter. what other treatment was given to president kennedy at the time you were performing the procedures you have just described? dr. mcclelland. to the best of my knowledge, the other treatment had consisted of the placement of cutdown sites in his extremities, namely, the making of incisions over large veins in the arms and, i believe, in the leg; however, i'm not sure about that, since i was not paying too much attention to that part of the activity, and large plastic tubes were placed into these veins for the giving of blood and fluids, and as i recall, he received a certain amount of blood, but i don't know exactly how much, since i was not actually giving the blood. in addition to that, of course, while we were working on the tracheotomy incision, the other physicians that i have mentioned were attaching the president rapidly to a cardiac monitor, that is to say, an electrocardiogram, for checking the presence of cardiac activity, and in addition, chest tubes were being placed in the right and left chest--both, as i recall. mr. specter. do you recall who was placing those tubes? dr. mcclelland. one of the tubes, i believe, was placed by dr. peters. the other one, i'm not right certain, i don't really recall--i perhaps better not say. mr. specter. do you know about how long that took in placing those chest tubes? dr. mcclelland. as well as i am aware, the tubes were both placed in. what this involves is simply putting a trocar, a large hollow tube, and that is put into the small incision, into the anterior chest wall and slipping the tube into the chest between a group of ribs for purposes of relieving any collection of air or fluid which is present in the lungs. the reason this was done was because it was felt that there was probably quite possibly a mediastinal injury with perhaps suffusion of blood and air into one or both pleural cavities. mr. specter. what effect did this medical treatment have on president kennedy? dr. mcclelland. as near as we could tell, unfortunately, none. we felt that from the time we saw him, most of us agreed, all of us agreed rather, that this was a mortal wound, but that in spite of this feeling that all attempts possible should be made to revive him, as far as establishing the airway breathing for him, and replacing blood and what not, but unfortunately the loss of blood and the loss of cerebral and cerebellar tissues were so great that the efforts were of no avail. mr. specter. was he conscious at that time that you saw him? dr. mcclelland. no. mr. specter. and, at what time did he expire? dr. mcclelland. he was pronounced dead at p.m. on november . mr. specter. what was the cause of death in your opinion? dr. mcclelland. the cause of death, i would say, would be massive head injuries with loss of large amounts of cerebral and cerebellar tissues and massive blood loss. mr. specter. did you observe anything in the nature of a wound on his body other than that which you have already described for me? dr. mcclelland. no. mr. specter. in what position was president kennedy maintained from the time you saw him until the pronouncement of death? dr. mcclelland. on his back on the cart. mr. specter. on his what? dr. mcclelland. on his back on the stretcher. mr. specter. was he on the stretcher at all times? dr. mcclelland. yes. mr. specter. in the trauma room no. you described, is there any table onto which he could be placed from the stretcher? dr. mcclelland. no; generally we do not move patients from the stretcher until they are ready to go into the operating room and then they are moved onto the operating table. mr. specter. well, in fact, was he left on the stretcher all during the course of these procedures until he was pronounced dead? dr. mcclelland. that's right. mr. specter. then, at any time was he positioned in a way where you could have seen the back of his body? dr. mcclelland. no. mr. specter. did you observe any gunshot wound on his back? dr. mcclelland. no. mr. specter. have you had discussions with the other doctors who attended president kennedy as to the possible nature of the wound which was inflicted on him? dr. mcclelland. yes. mr. specter. and what facts did you have available either to you or to the other doctors whom you talked this over with, with respect to the nature of the wound, source of the wounds, and that sort of thing? dr. mcclelland. immediately we had essentially no facts. we knew nothing of the number of bullets that had supposedly been fired. we knew nothing of the site from which the bullet had been fired, essentially none of the circumstances in the first few minutes, say, or minutes after the president was brought in, so that our initial impressions were based upon extremely incomplete information. mr. specter. what were your initial impressions? dr. mcclelland. the initial impression that we had was that perhaps the wound in the neck, the anterior part of the neck, was an entrance wound and that it had perhaps taken a trajectory off the anterior vertebral body and again into the skull itself, exiting out the back, to produce the massive injury in the head. however, this required some straining of the imagination to imagine that this would happen, and it was much easier to explain the apparent trajectory by means of two bullets, which we later found out apparently had been fired, than by just one then, on which basis we were originally taking to explain it. mr. specter. through the use of the pronoun "we" in your last answer, to whom do you mean by "we"? dr. mcclelland. essentially all of the doctors that have previously been mentioned here. mr. specter. did you observe the condition of the back of the president's head? dr. mcclelland. well, partially; not, of course, as i say, we did not lift his head up since it was so greatly damaged. we attempted to avoid moving him any more than it was absolutely necessary, but i could see, of course, all the extent of the wound. mr. specter. you saw a large opening which you have already described? dr. mcclelland. i saw the large opening which i have described. mr. specter. did you observe any other wound on the back of the head? dr. mcclelland. no. mr. specter. did you observe a small gunshot wound below the large opening on the back of the head? dr. mcclelland. no. mr. specter. based on the experience that you have described for us with gunshot wounds and your general medical experience, would you characterize the description of the wound that dr. perry gave you as being a wound of entrance or a wound of exit, or was the description which you got from dr. perry and dr. baxter and dr. carrico who were there before, equally consistent with whether or not it was a wound of entrance or a wound of exit, or how would you characterize it in your words? dr. mcclelland. i would say it would be equally consistent with either type wound, either an entrance or an exit type wound. it would be quite difficult to say--impossible. mr. specter. dr. mcclelland, i show you now a statement or a report which has been furnished to the commission by parkland hospital and has been identified in a previous commission hearing as commission exhibit no. , and i direct your attention specifically to a page, "third report", which was made by you, and i would ask you first of all if this is your signature which appears at the bottom of page , and next, whether in fact you did make this report and submit it to the authorities at parkland hospital? dr. mcclelland. yes. mr. specter. and are all the facts set forth true and correct to the best of your knowledge, information and belief? dr. mcclelland. to the best of my knowledge, yes. mr. specter. dr. mcclelland, did you and i sit down together for just a few minutes before i started to take your deposition today? dr. mcclelland. yes, sir. mr. specter. and i discussed this matter with you? dr. mcclelland. yes. mr. specter. and, during the course of our conversations at that time, did we cover the same material in question form here and to which you have responded in answer form with the court reporter here today? dr. mcclelland. yes. mr. specter. and has the information which you have given me on the record been the same as that which you gave me off of the record in advance? dr. mcclelland. yes. mr. specter. do you have any interest, dr. mcclelland in reading your testimony over or signing it at the end, or would you be willing to waive any such signature of the testimony? dr. mcclelland. i would be willing to waive my signature. mr. specter. thank you so much for coming and giving us your deposition today. dr. mcclelland. all right, thank you. testimony of dr. robert m. mcclelland resumed the testimony of dr. robert m. mcclelland was taken at : p.m., on march , , at parkland memorial hospital, dallas, tex., by mr. arlen specter, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. specter. may the record show that dr. robert m. mcclelland has returned to have a brief additional deposition concerning a translation of "l' express" which has been called to my attention in the intervening time which has elapsed between march , when i took dr. mcclelland's deposition on the first occasion, and today. dr. mcclelland, will you raise your right hand? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give to the president's commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you god? dr. mcclelland. i do. mr. specter. dr. mcclelland, i show you a translation from the french, of the magazine, "l' express" issue of february , , and ask you if you would read this item, with particular emphasis on a reference to a quotation or statement made by you to a reporter from the st. louis post dispatch. dr. mcclelland. (examined instrument referred to.) mr. specter. now, have you had an opportunity to read over that excerpt? dr. mcclelland. yes. mr. specter. did you talk to a reporter from the st. louis post dispatch about this matter? dr. mcclelland. yes. mr. specter. and what was his name? dr. mcclelland. richard dudman. mr. specter. and when did you have that conversation with mr. dudman? dr. mcclelland. as well as i recall, it was the day after the assassination, as nearly as i can recall, but i'm not certain about that. mr. specter. will you tell me as closely as you remember what he said to you and you said to him, please? dr. mcclelland. the main point he seemed to be making was to attempt to define something about the wound, the nature of the wound, and as near as i can recall, i indicated to him that the wound was a small undamaged--appearing punctate area in the skin of the neck, the anterior part of the neck, which had the appearance of the usual entrance wound of a bullet, but that this certainly could not be--you couldn't make a statement to that effect with any complete degree of certainty, though we were, as i told him, experienced in seeing wounds of this nature, and usually felt that we could tell the difference between an entrance and an exit wound, and this was, i think, in essence what i told him about the nature of the wound. mr. specter. now, had you actually observed the wound prior to the time the tracheotomy was performed on that neck wound? dr. mcclelland. no; my knowledge of the entrance wound, as i stated, in my former deposition, was merely from what dr. perry told me when i entered the room and began putting on a pair of surgical gloves to assist with the tracheotomy. dr. perry looked up briefly and said that they had made an incision and were in the process of making an incision in the neck, which extended through the middle of the wound in question in the front of the neck. mr. specter. now, you have just characterized it in that last answer as an entrance wound. dr. mcclelland. well, perhaps i shouldn't say the wound anyway, not the entrance wound--that might be a slip of the tongue. mr. specter. do you have a firm opinion at this time as to whether it is an entrance wound or exit wound or whatever? dr. mcclelland. of course, my opinion now would be colored by everything that i've heard about it and seen since, but i'll say this, if i were simply looking at the wound again and had seen the wound in its unchanged state, and which i did not, and, of course, as i say, it had already been opened up by the tracheotomy incision when i saw the wound--but if i saw the wound in its state in which dr. perry described it to me, i would probably initially think this were an entrance wound, knowing nothing about the circumstances as i did at the time, but i really couldn't say--that's the whole point. this would merely be a calculated guess, and that's all, not knowing anything more than just seeing the wound itself. mr. specter. but did you, in fact, see the wound prior to the time the incision was made? dr. mcclelland. no. mr. specter. so that any preliminary thought you had even, would be based upon what you had been told by dr. perry? dr. mcclelland. that's right. mr. specter. now, did you tell mr. dudman of the st. louis post dispatch that you did not in fact see the wound in the neck, but your only information of it came from what dr. perry had told you? dr. mcclelland. i don't recall whether i told him that or not. i really don't remember whether i said i had seen the wound myself or whether i was merely referring to our sort of collective opinion of it, or whether i told him i had not seen the wound and was merely going by dr. perry's report of it to me. i don't recall now, this far away in time exactly what i said to him. mr. specter. dr. mcclelland, i want to ask you a few additional questions, and some of these questions may duplicate questions which i asked you last saturday, and the reason for that is, we have not yet had a chance to transcribe the deposition of last saturday, so i do not have before me the questions i asked you at that time and the answers you gave, and since last saturday i have taken the depositions of many, many doctors on the same topics, so it is not possible for me to be absolutely certain of the specific questions which i asked you at that time, but permit me to ask you one or several more questions on the subject. first, how many bullets do you think were involved in inflicting the wounds on president kennedy which you observed? dr. mcclelland. at the present time, you mean, or at the immediate moment? mr. specter. well, take the immediate moment and then the present time. dr. mcclelland. at the moment, of course, it was our impression before we had any other information from any other source at all, when we were just confronted with the acute emergency, the brief thoughts that ran through our minds were that this was one bullet, that perhaps entered through the front of the neck and then in some peculiar fashion which we really had, as i mentioned the other day, to strain to explain to ourselves, had coursed up the front of the vertebra and into the base of the skull and out the rear of the skull. this would have been a very circuitous route for the bullet to have made, so that when we did find later on what the circumstances were surrounding the assassination, this was much more readily explainable to ourselves that the two wounds were made by two separate bullets. mr. specter. and what is your view or opinion today as to how many bullets inflicted the injuries of president kennedy? dr. mcclelland. two. mr. specter. now, what would be the reason for your changing your opinion in that respect? dr. mcclelland. oh, just simply the later reports that we heard from all sources, of all the circumstances surrounding the assassination. certainly no further first-hand information came to me and made me change my mind in that regard. mr. specter. dr. mcclelland, let me ask you to assume a few additional facts, and based on a hypothetical situation which i will put to you and i'll ask you for an opinion. assume, if you will, that president kennedy was shot on the upper right posterior thorax just above the upper border of the scapula at a point cm. from the tip of the right acromion process and cm. below a tip of the right mastoid process, assume further that that wound of entry was caused by a . -mm. missile shot out of a rifle having a muzzle velocity of approximately , feet per second, being located to feet away from president kennedy, that the bullet entered on the point that i described on the president's back, passed between two strap muscles on the posterior aspect of the president's body and moved through the fascial channel without violating the pleura cavity, and exited in the midline lower third anterior portion of the president's neck, would the hole which dr. perry described to you on the front side of the president's neck be consistent with the hole which such a bullet might make in such a trajectory through the president's body? dr. mcclelland. yes; i think so. mr. specter. and what would your reasoning be for thinking that that would be a possible hole of exit on those factors as i have outlined them to you? dr. mcclelland. well, i think my reasoning would be basically that the missile was traveling mainly through soft tissue, rather than exploding from a bony chamber and that by the time it reached the neck that it had already lost, because of the distance from which it was fired, even though the muzzle velocity was as you stated--would have already lost a good deal of its initial velocity and kinetic strength and therefore would have perhaps made, particularly, if it were a fragment of the bullet as bullets do sometimes fragment, could have made a small hole like this in exiting. it certainly could have done that. mr. specter. what would have happened then to the other portion of the bullet if it had fragmented? dr. mcclelland. it might have been left along, or portions of it along the missile track--sometimes will be left scattered up and down this. other fragments will maybe scatter in the wound and sometimes there will be multiple fragments and sometimes maybe only a small fragment out of the main bullet, sometimes a bullet will split in half--this is extremely difficult for me to say just what would happen in a case like that. mr. specter. well, assuming this situation--that the bullet did not fragment, because the autopsy report shows no fragmentation, that is, it cannot show the absence of fragmentation, but we do know that there were no bullets left in the body at any point, so that no fragment is left in. dr. mcclelland. i think even then you could make the statement that this wound could have resulted from this type bullet fired through this particular mass of soft tissue, losing that much velocity before it exited from the body. where you would expect to see this really great hole that is left behind would be, for instance, from a very high velocity missile fired at close range with a heavy caliber bullet, such as a . pistol fired at close range, which would make a small entrance hole, relatively, and particularly if it entered some portion of the anatomy such as the head, where there was a sudden change in density from the brain to the skull cavity, as it entered. as it left the body, it would still have a great deal of force behind it and would blow up a large segment of tissue as it exited. but i don't think the bullet of this nature fired from that distance and going through this large area of homogenous soft tissue would necessarily make the usual kind of exit wound like i just described, with a close range high velocity heavy caliber bullet. this is why it would be difficult to say with certainty as has been implied in some newspaper articles that quoted me, that you could tell for sure that this was an entrance or an exit wound. i think this was blown up a good deal. mr. specter. dr. mcclelland, why wasn't the president's body turned over? dr. mcclelland. the president's body was not turned over because the initial things that were done as in all such cases of extreme emergency are to first establish an airway and second, to stop hemorrhage and replace blood, so that these were the initial things that were carried out immediately without taking time to do a very thorough physical examination, which of course would have required that these other emergency measures not be done immediately. mr. specter. did you make any examination of the president's back at all? dr. mcclelland. no. mr. specter. was any examination of the president's back made to your knowledge? dr. mcclelland. not here--no. mr. specter. do you have anything to add which you think might be helpful in any way to the commission? dr. mcclelland. no; i think not except again to emphasize perhaps that some of our statements to the press about the nature of the wound may have been misleading, possibly--probably because of our fault in telling it in such a way that they misinterpreted our certainty of being able to tell entrance from exit wounds, which as we say, we generally can make an educated guess about these things but cannot be certain about them. i think they attributed too much certainty to us about that. mr. specter. now, have you talked to anyone from the federal government about this matter since i took your deposition last saturday? dr. mcclelland. no. mr. specter. and did you and i chat for a moment or two with my showing you this translation of "l' express" prior to the time we went on the record here? dr. mcclelland. yes. mr. specter. and is the information which you gave to me in response to my questions the same that we put on the record here? dr. mcclelland. to the best of my knowledge--yes. mr. specter. thank you very much, dr. mcclelland. dr. mcclelland. all right. thank you. testimony of dr. charles rufus baxter the testimony of dr. charles rufus baxter was taken at : a.m., on march , , at parkland memorial hospital, dallas, tex., by mr. arlen specter, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. specter. may the record show that dr. charles baxter is present in response to a letter requesting him to appear and give his deposition. for the record i shall state that the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy is investigating all facets of the shooting, including the medical treatment performed on president kennedy. dr. baxter has been asked to give a deposition on his participation in connection with the care and medical treatment of president kennedy, and with that statement of purpose, would you please stand up, dr. baxter, and raise your right hand. do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before the president's commission in the course of this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you god? dr. baxter. i do. mr. specter. would you state your full name, please? dr. baxter. charles rufus baxter. mr. specter. what is your profession, sir? dr. baxter. i am a medical doctor of surgery, general surgeon. mr. specter. will you outline briefly your educational background? dr. baxter. university of texas-- through . southwestern medical school, through , straight medicine internship, medicine residency--internal medicine residency. through , surgical research at brooke army medical center, through --surgical residency, and through the present--this is , i got out of the army--in , through --surgery residency, and until now, assistant professor of surgery. mr. specter. and are you board certified, doctor? dr. baxter. yes. mr. specter. and what boards have you passed? dr. baxter. the american board of surgeons. mr. specter. and what year were you so certified? dr. baxter. . mr. specter. and what is your specific title at the medical school? dr. baxter. assistant professor of surgery. mr. specter. did you have occasion to aid in the treatment of president kennedy at parkland hospital? dr. baxter. yes. mr. specter. and will you outline briefly the circumstances surrounding your being called to render such assistance? dr. baxter. i was conducting the student health service in the hours of to and was contacted there by the supervisor of the emergency room, who told me that the president was on the way to the emergency room, having been shot. i went on a dead run to the emergency room as fast as i could and it took me about or minutes to get there. mr. specter. approximately what time did you arrive at the emergency room? dr. baxter. i think it was : --thereabouts. mr. specter. and who was present at that time? dr. baxter. dr. carrico and dr. jones and dr. jenkins--several nurses. mr. specter. can you identify the nurses? dr. baxter. yes; mrs. nelson--and who else? there were two or three others whose names--miss henchliffe was there. mr. specter. miss bowron? dr. baxter. who? mr. specter. was miss bowron there? dr. baxter. yes; i believe so. mr. specter. were any other nurses there? dr. baxter. one or two more, but i'm not sure of their names. mr. specter. can you identify any other doctors who were there at that time? dr. baxter. oh, let's see--i'm not sure whether the others came before or after i did. there was crenshaw, peters, and kemp clark, dr. bashour finally came. i believe jackie hunt--yes--she was, i believe she was the anesthesiologist who came. mr. specter. was dr. don curtis there? dr. baxter. i'm not sure--i just don't remember. mr. specter. when you arrived, what did you observe as to the condition of the president? dr. baxter. he was very obviously in extremis. there was a large gaping wound in the skull which was covered at that time with blood, and its extent was not immediately determined. his eyes were bulging, the pupils were fixed and dilated and deviated outward, both pupils were deviated laterally. at that time his breathing was being assisted so that whether he was breathing on his own or not, i couldn't determine. mr. specter. in what way was his breathing being assisted? dr. baxter. with an anesthesia machine. mr. specter. would you continue to describe what you observed as to his condition? dr. baxter. there were no pulses that i could feel present. the anesthesiologist told me that he did still have a heartbeat. mr. specter. who is that who said that to you? dr. baxter. well, i believe this was carrico who said that his heart was still beating. there was present at the time two intravenous catheters in place with fluids running. we were informed at that time--well, having looked over the rest of the body, the only other wound was in his neck, that we saw. dr. carrico said that he had observed a tracheal laceration. at that moment dr. jones, i believe, was placing in a left anterior chest tube because of this information. we proceeded at that time with a tracheotomy. mr. specter. who performed the tracheotomy? dr. baxter. dr. perry and myself, with the assistance of dr. mcclelland, and i believe that's all--there may have been one more person that held the retractor. mr. specter. what else, if anything, did you do for president kennedy at that time? dr. baxter. during the tracheotomy, i helped with the insertion of a right anterior chest tube, and then helped dr. perry complete the tracheotomy. at that point none of us could hear a heartbeat present. apparently this had ceased during the tracheotomy and the chest tube placement. we then gave him or dr. perry and dr. clark alternated giving him closed chest cardiac massage only until we could get a cardioscope hooked up to tell us if there were any detectible heartbeat electrically present, at least, and there was none, and we discussed at that moment whether we should open the chest to attempt to revive him, while the closed chest massage was going on, and we had an opportunity to look at his head wound then and saw that the damage was beyond hope, that is, in a word--literally the right side of his head had been blown off. with this and the observation that the cerebellum was present--a large quantity of brain was present on the cart, well--we felt that such an additional heroic attempt was not warranted, and we did not pronounce him dead but ceased our efforts, and awaited the priest and last rites before we pronounced him dead. mr. specter. did the priest then arrive to perform the last rites? dr. baxter. yes. mr. specter. at what time was he pronounced dead? dr. baxter. as i recall, it was : , i'm not sure, it may have been that that was oswald. mr. specter. but it was approximately o'clock? then, could the time of death be fixed with any precision? dr. baxter. i don't think so--the time elapsing in all of this resuscitation and the time the heart actually ceased, i don't think one could be very sure of it. it was sometime between a quarter to and o'clock. mr. specter. have you now described all of the efforts which were made to save the life of the president? dr. baxter. only with the exception, i think, of the fluids that were administered. he was given hydrocortisone because of his previous medical condition. he was given no negative blood because the blood loss was rather fierce and, i believe that's all. mr. specter. what other doctors arrived during the course of the treatment, in addition to those whom you have already mentioned? dr. baxter. i don't recall--i know that there were more doctors present in the room, but their names, i'm not sure of. the reason i'm not sure is because we had some of the same crew and a different crew on the governor and on oswald, and i'm afraid that i've gotten them mixed up. mr. specter. now, will you describe in as much particularity as you can the nature of the head wound? dr. baxter. the only wound that i actually saw--dr. clark examined this above the manubrium of the sternum, the sternal notch. this wound was in temporal parietal plate of bone laid outward to the side and there was a large area, oh, i would say by or cm. of lacerated brain oozing from this wound, part of which was on the table and made a rather massive blood loss mixed with it and around it. mr. specter. did you notice any bullet hole below that large opening at the top of the head? dr. baxter. no; i personally did not. mr. specter. will you describe with as much particularity as you can the wound which you noticed on the president's neck? dr. baxter. the wound on the neck was approximately an inch and a half above the manubrium of the sternum, the sternal notch. this wound was in my estimation, to mm. in widest diameter and was a spherical wound. the edges of it--the size of the wound is measured by the hole plus the damaged skin around the area, so that it was a very small wound. and, it was directly in the midline. now, this wound was excised in the performance of the tracheotomy and on the entry into the deeper tissues of the neck, there was considerable contusion of the muscles of the anterior neck and a moderate amount of bleeding around the trachea. the trachea was deviated slightly, i believe, to the left. our tracheotomy incision was made in the second tracheal ring which was immediately above the area of damage--where we thought the damaged area of the trachea was, which we did not dissect out, but once the endrotracheal tube was placed, the tracheotomy tube was placed into the trachea, it was below this tear in the trachea, and gave us good control or perfect control of respiration. mr. specter. were the characteristics of the wound on the neck sufficient to enable you to form an opinion with reasonable medical certainty as to what was the cause of the hole? dr. baxter. well, the wound was, i think, compatible with a gunshot wound. it did not appear to be a jagged wound such as one would expect with a very high velocity rifle bullet. we could not determine, or did not determine at that time whether this represented an entry or an exit wound. judging from the caliber of the rifle that we later found or become acquainted with, this would more resemble a wound of entry. however, due to the density of the tissues of the neck and depending upon what a bullet of such caliber would pass through, the tissues that it would pass through on the way to the neck, i think that the wound could well represent either exit or entry wound. mr. specter. assuming some factors in addition to those which you personally observed, dr. baxter, what would your opinion be if these additional facts were present: first, the president had a bullet wound of entry on the right posterior thorax just above the upper border of the scapula with the wound measuring by mm. in oval shape, being cm. from the tip of the right acromion process and cm. below the tip of the right mastoid process--assume this is the set of facts, that the wound just described was caused by a . mm. bullet shot from approximately to feet away from the president, from a weapon having a muzzle velocity of approximately , feet per second, assuming as a third factor that the bullet passed through the president's body, going in between the strap muscles of the shoulder without violating the pleura space and exited at a point in the midline of the neck, would the hole which you saw on the president's throat be consistent with an exit point, assuming the factors which i have just given to you? dr. baxter. although it would be unusual for a high velocity missile of this type to cause a wound as you have described, the passage through tissue planes of this density could have well resulted in the sequence which you outline; namely, that the anterior wound does represent a wound of exit. mr. specter. what would be the considerations which, in your mind, would make it, as you characterized it, unlikely? dr. baxter. it would be unlikely because the damage that the bullet would create would be--first its speed would create a shock wave which would damage a larger number of tissues, as in its path, it would tend to strike, or usually would strike, tissues of greater density than this particular missile did and would then begin to tumble and would create larger jagged--the further it went, the more jagged would be the damage that it created; so that ordinarily there would have been a rather large wound of exit. mr. specter. but relating the situation as i hypothesized it for you? dr. baxter. then it is perfectly understandable that this wound of exit was not of any greater magnitude than it was. mr. specter. dr. baxter, is there a channel through which the bullet could have passed in the general direction which i have described to you where there would be very few tissues and virtually no tissues of great density? dr. baxter. yes; passing through the fascial plane which you have described, it could well not have these things happen to it, so that it would pass directly through--almost as if passing through a sheet of paper and the wound of exit would be no larger than the wound we saw. mr. specter. what would the situation there be as to the shock wave which you have heretofore described? dr. baxter. there would be a large amount of tissue damage which is not ordinarily seen immediately after a bullet has passed through. this is damage that is recognized several days later. mr. specter. what causes the shock waves there, doctor? dr. baxter. this is just the velocity imparting pressure to surrounding tissues which damages them. it does not show, however, in the early course after a missile has passed through. mr. specter. well, would the shock waves have any effect upon the size, and nature of the hole of exit? dr. baxter. no. mr. specter. and if the bullet passed through the fascial plane without striking tissues of great density, would it have a tendency to tumble at all? dr. baxter. no, it would not. mr. specter. what has your experience been, if any, doctor, with gunshot wounds? dr. baxter. for the past years--we admit and treat, i would estimate, around gunshot wounds per year--thereabouts. mr. specter. have you ever had any formal training in gunshot wounds? dr. baxter. only that i received in the army, with demonstration of various velocities and that type missile wounds. mr. specter. where was president kennedy lying when you first saw him, dr. baxter? dr. baxter. on the cart, on the emergency cart in trauma room . mr. specter. was he ever taken off of that cart from the time you first saw him until the time he was pronounced dead? dr. baxter. no. mr. specter. was he ever turned over? dr. baxter. no. mr. specter. would your examination have been conducted in any different way had this particular victim not been the president of the united states? dr. baxter. i think--yes--in that we would have, particularly, postmortem examined the body much more carefully than we did. we would certainly have undressed him completely and determined all of the direction of the wounds at the time. this did not seem feasible under the circumstances. mr. specter. why was it not feasible under the circumstances? dr. baxter. mrs. kennedy was in the room, there was a large number of people in the room by that time--secret service agents, the priests and so on. as soon as the president was pronounced dead, the secret service more or less--well, requested that we clear the room and leave them with the president's body, which was done. everything that the secret service wished was carried out. mr. specter. what was that? dr. baxter. everything that the secret service asked us to do, we did, as rapidly as possible and this was one of their requests. in addition, i must say that the emotional condition of all of us at that time was such that probably we would not--we didn't feel that we should do any more, since we were certain that autopsy would take care of all that we were going to miss. mr. specter. did the emotional situation have any effect in your professional opinion on the quality of the medical care which was rendered to the president? dr. baxter. no; none at all. we, i think, everyone present in the room was certainly emotionally involved in the care of the president, but in no instance did i see less than the most meticulous and best judgment used in the care of the president. mr. specter. and what, in your opinion, was the cause of death, dr. baxter? dr. baxter. gunshot wound to the head. mr. specter. would you have an opinion as to whether or not president kennedy would have survived the gunshot wound which you observed in the neck? dr. baxter. we saw no evidence that it had struck anything in the neck that would not be well taken care of by simply--by the tracheotomy and chest tubes. mr. specter. did you find any bullets in the president's body? dr. baxter. no, we did not. mr. specter. any fragments of bullets in the president's body? mr. baxter. no, sir. mr. specter. dr. baxter, i now show you commission exhibit , which has been heretofore identified in commission proceedings as the report from parkland memorial hospital, and i now call your attention to a page which purports to bear your signature, and a written report which you rendered under date of november , . i ask you, first of all, if that is your signature? dr. baxter. yes. mr. specter. and, if this is the report which you submitted? dr. baxter. yes. mr. specter. do you have any other writings or notes of any sort concerning your care of president kennedy? dr. baxter. no. mr. specter. will you read into the record, dr. baxter, the contents of your report, because it is a little hard to read in spots? dr. baxter. "i was contacted at approximately : that the president was on the way to the emergency room, having been shot. on arrival there, i found an endotracheal tube in place with assisted respirations, a left chest tube being inserted, and cutdowns going in one leg and in the left arm. the president had a wound in the midline of the neck. on first observation of the remaining wounds, the temporal and parietal bones were missing and the brain was lying on the table with extensive lacerations and contusions. the pupils were fixed and deviated laterally and dilated. no pulse was detectable, respirations were (as noted) being supplemented. a tracheotomy was performed by dr. perry and i and a chest tube inserted into the right chest (second interspace anteriorly). meanwhile, pints of o negative blood was administered by pump without response. when all of these measures were complete, no heartbeat could be detected, closed chest massage was performed until a cardioscope could be attached, which revealed no cardiac activity was obtained. due to the extensive and irreparable brain damage which was detected, no further attempt to resuscitate the heart was made." mr. specter. and that bears your signature? dr. baxter. charles r. baxter, m.d., assistant professor of surgery, southwestern medical school, university of texas. mr. specter. dr. baxter, has any representative of the federal government ever talked to you about this matter prior to today? dr. baxter. the only person was a secret service agent about--approximately three weeks ago who asked me if i had any additional written comments anywhere or had made any writings on the medical treatment of the president, and the answer was "no." mr. specter. now, prior to the time that the court reporter started to transcribe my questions and your answers, did you and i briefly discuss this deposition proceeding, its purpose and the questions which i would ask you? dr. baxter. yes. mr. specter. and are the answers given on the record here the same as you gave me in our brief conversation before the transcription was started? dr. baxter. yes. mr. specter. do you have anything to add which you think might be helpful in any way to the work of the commission? dr. baxter. no. mr. specter. thank you very much for coming, dr. baxter. dr. baxter. thank you. testimony of dr. marion thomas jenkins the testimony of dr. marion thomas jenkins was taken at : p.m., on march , , at parkland memorial hospital, dallas, tex., by mr. arlen specter, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. specter. may the record show that dr. m. t. jenkins has appeared in response to a letter request in connection with the inquiry of the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy, to testify concerning his observations and medical treatment performed by him on president kennedy, and with this preliminary statement of purpose, would you stand up, please, dr. jenkins, and raise your right hand. do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before the president's commission in this deposition proceeding, will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? dr. jenkins. i do. mr. specter. would you state your full name for the record, please? dr. jenkins. marion thomas jenkins. mr. specter. what is your profession, please? dr. jenkins. i'm a physician. mr. specter. are you licensed by the state of texas to practice medicine? dr. jenkins. yes. mr. specter. and what is your specialty, dr. jenkins? dr. jenkins. anesthesiology. mr. specter. will you outline your educational background for me, please? dr. jenkins. i am a graduate of the university of texas in . i have a b.a. degree and an m.d. degree from the university of texas medical branch at galveston in , rotating internship at the university of kansas hospital, kansas city, kans., - ; assistant residency in internal medicine, john sealy hospital in galveston, tex., - ; active duty in the u.s. navy as a medical officer, to ; resident in surgery--parkland hospital, dallas, - ; resident in anesthesiology in the massachusetts general hospital, boston, - ; and director of the department of anesthesiology, parkland hospital and parkland memorial hospital, to the present; professor and chairman of the department of anesthesiology, university of texas, southwestern medical school--since . diplomate--other certification, do you want this? mr. specter. yes, what boards are you certified? dr. jenkins. i am a diplomate of the american board of anesthesiology and also fellow of the american college of anesthesiologists. mr. specter. and what year were you certified by the american board? dr. jenkins. . mr. specter. did you have occasion to assist in the treatment of president kennedy on november , ? dr. jenkins. yes. mr. specter. and will you relate briefly the circumstances surrounding your being called into that case? dr. jenkins. well, i was in the dining room with other members of the hospital staff when we heard the chief of surgery, dr. tom shires, being paged "stat." this is a rather unusual call, for the chief of any service to be called "stat" as this is the emergency call. mr. specter. what does that mean, "stat"? dr. jenkins. "stat" means emergency, that's just a code word that has been used for years in medical terms. he was paged twice this way, and one of the surgical residents, dr. ronald jones, answered the phone, thinking something bad must be up and that he would call the chief of surgery. i was sitting near the telephone and dr. jones immediately came back by with a very anguished look and the color was drained from his face--i'm sure i had that impression, and he said, "the president has been shot and is on his way to the hospital." at the same time we heard the sirens of the ambulance as they turned into the driveway from harry hines into the hospital drive, and it was obvious that this was the car coming in because the ambulance sirens usually stop in the street, but these came on clear to the building. mr. specter. that's harry hines boulevard right in front of the hospital? dr. jenkins. yes; i ran up the stairs to the anesthesia department, that's on the second floor--one floor above the dining room, where i was, and notified two members of the department, the first two i saw, my chief associate, dr. a. h. giesecke, jr., and dr. jackie hunt, that the president had been shot and was being brought to the emergency room and for them to bring all the resuscitative equipment we have including an anesthesia machine. the emergency room is set up well, but we are used to working with our own equipment and i asked them to bring it down and i ran down the back stairs, two flights down, and i arrived in the emergency room just after or right behind him being wheeled in, i guess. mr. specter. at about what time did you arrive at the emergency room? dr. jenkins. oh, this was around : - : to : . i shouldn't be indefinite about this--in our own specialty practice, we watch the clock closely, and there are many things we have to keep up with, but i didn't get that time exactly, i'll admit. mr. specter. who was present at the time of your arrival in the emergency room, if anyone? dr. jenkins. the hallway was loaded with people. mr. specter. what medical personnel were in attendance? dr. jenkins. including mrs. kennedy, i recognized, and secret service men, i didn't know whether to block the way or get out of it, as it turned out. dr. james carrico and dr. dulany--dick dulany, i guess you have his name, and several nurses were in the room. mr. specter. could you identify the nurses? dr. jenkins. well, not really. i could identify them only having later looked around and identified from my own record that i have, the names of all who were there later. now, whether they are the same ones when i first went there, i don't know. i have all the names in my report, it seemed to me. mr. specter. could you now identify all of the nurses from your later observations of them? dr. jenkins. well, i can identify who was in there at the close of the procedure, that is, the doctors, as well as those who were helping. mr. specter. fine, would you do that for us, please? dr. jenkins. these included a mrs. or miss patricia hutton and miss diana bowron, b-o-w-r-o-n (spelling), and a miss henchliffe--i don't know her first name, but i do know it is henchliffe. mr. specter. margaret? dr. jenkins. margaret--certainly. those three--there were probably some student nurses too, whom i didn't recognize. shall i continue? mr. specter. yes, please. have you now covered all the people you recollect as being in the room? dr. jenkins. well, as i came into the room, i saw only the--actually--you know, in the haste of the coming of the president, two doctors whom i recognized, and there were other people and i have identified all i remember. mr. specter. what did you observe as to the president's condition when you arrived in the emergency room? dr. jenkins. well, i was aware of what he was in an agonal state. this is not a too unfamiliar state that we see in the service, as much trauma as we see, that is, he had the agonal respiratory gasp made up of jerking movements of the mylohyoid group of muscles. these are referred to sometimes as chin jerk, tracheal tug or agonal muscles of respiration. he had this characteristic of respiration. his eyes were opened and somewhat exophthalmic and color was greatly suffused, cyanotic--a purplish cyanosis. still, we have patients in the state, as far as cyanosis and agonal type respiration, who are resuscitatable. of course, you don't stop at this time and think, "well, this is a hopeless circumstance,"--because one in this state can often be resusciated--this represents the activities prior to one's demise sometimes, and if it can be stopped, such as the patient is oxygenated again and circulation reinstituted, he can be saved. dr. carrico had just introduced an endotracheal tube, i'm very proud of him for this because it's not as easy as it sounds. at times and under the circumstances--it was harder--he had just completed a -month rotation on the anesthesiology service, and i thought this represented good background training for a smart individual, and he told me he had a cuff on the endotracheal tube and he introduced it below the wound. the reason i said this, of course, this is a reflex--there is a tube, the endotracheal tube, if it is pushed down a little too far it can go into the right main stem of the bronchus impairing respiration from both lungs, or both chests. there was in the room an intermittent positive pressure breathing apparatus, which can be used to respire for a patient. as i connected this up, however, dr. carrico and i connected it up to give oxygen by artificial respiration, dr. giesecke and dr. hunt arrived on the scene with the anesthesia machine and i connected it up instead with something i am more familiar with--not for anesthesia, i must insist on that--it was for the oxygenation, the ability to control ventilation with percent oxygen. as i came in there, other people came in also. this is my recollection. now, by this time i was in familiar surroundings, despite the anguish of the circumstance. despite the unusual circumstance, in terms of the distinguished personage who was the patient, i think the people who had gathered or who had congregated were so accustomed to doing resuscitative procedures of this nature that they knew where to fit into the resuscitation team without having a preconceived or predirected plan, because, as obviously--some people were doing things not necessarily in their specialty, but there was the opening and there was the necessity for this being done. there were three others who came in as i did who recognized at once the neck wound, in fact, where the wound was, would indicate that we would have serious pulmonary problems unless a tracheotomy tube was put in. this is one way of avoiding pushing air out through a fractured trachea and down into each chest cavity, which would cause a pneumothorax or a collapse of the lungs. these were doctors malcolm perry, charley baxter, and robert mcclelland, who with dr. carrico's help, i believe, started the tracheotomy. about this time drs. kemp clark and paul peters came in, and dr. peters because of the appearance of the right chest, the obvious physical characteristics of a pneumothorax, put in a closed chest drainage--chest tube. because i felt no peripheral pulse and was not aware of any pulse, i reported this to dr. clark and he started closed chest cardiac massage. there were other people--one which started an i.v. in a cutdown in the right leg and one a cutdown in the left arm. two of my department connected up the cardioscope, in which we had electrical silence on the cardioscope as dr. clark started closed chest massage. that's the sequence of events as i reconstructed them that day and dictated them on my report, which you have here, i think. mr. specter. speaking of your report, dr. jenkins, permit me to show you a group of papers heretofore identified as commission exhibit no. which has also been identified by mr. price, the hospital administrator, as being photostatic copies of original reports in his possession and controlled as custodian of records, and i show you what purports to be a report from you to mr. price, dated november , , and ask you if in fact this -page report was submitted by you to mr. price? dr. jenkins. yes; it was. mr. specter. now, going back to the wound which you observed in the neck, did you see that wound before the tracheotomy was performed? dr. jenkins. yes; i did, because i was just connecting up the endotracheal tube to the machine at the time and that's when dr. carrico said there was a wound in the neck and i looked at it. mr. specter. would you describe that wound as specifically as you can? dr. jenkins. well, i'm afraid my description of it would not be as accurate, of course, as that of the surgeons who were doing the tracheotomy, because my look was a quick look before connecting up the endotracheal tube to the apparatus to help in ventilation and respiration for the patient, and i was aware later in the day, as i should have put it in the report, that i thought this was a wound of exit because it was not a clean wound, and by "clean" clearly demarcated, round, punctate wound which is the usual wound of an entrance wound, made by a missile and at some speed. of course, entrance wounds with a lobbing type missile, can make a jagged wound also, but i was of the impression and i recognized i had the impression it was an exit wound. however, my mental appreciation for a wound--for the wound in the neck, i believe, was sort of--was overshadowed by recognition of the wound in the scalp and skull plate. mr. specter. have you now described the wound in the neck as specifically as you can at this moment? dr. jenkins. i believe so. mr. specter. now, will you now describe the wound which you observed in the head? dr. jenkins. almost by the time i was--had the time to pay more attention to the wound in the head, all of these other activities were under way. i was busy connecting up an apparatus to respire for the patient, exerting manual pressure on the breathing bag or anesthesia apparatus, trying to feel for a pulse in the neck, and then reaching up and feeling for one in the temporal area, seeing about connecting the cardioscope or directing its being connected, and then turned attention to the wound in the head. now, dr. clark had begun closed chest cardiac massage at this time and i was aware of the magnitude of the wound, because with each compression of the chest, there was a great rush of blood from the skull wound. part of the brain was herniated; i really think part of the cerebellum, as i recognized it, was herniated from the wound; there was part of the brain tissue, broken fragments of the brain tissue on the drapes of the cart on which the president lay. mr. specter. did you observe any wounds immediately below the massive loss of skull which you have described? dr. jenkins. on the right side? mr. specter. yes, sir. dr. jenkins. no--i don't know whether this is right or not, but i thought there was a wound on the left temporal area, right in the hairline and right above the zygomatic process. mr. specter. the autopsy report discloses no such development, dr. jenkins. dr. jenkins. well, i was feeling for--i was palpating here for a pulse to see whether the closed chest cardiac massage was effective or not and this probably was some blood that had come from the other point and so i thought there was a wound there also. mr. specter. at approximately what time was president kennedy pronounced dead? dr. jenkins. well, this was pronounced, we know the exact time as , according to my watch, at least, at the time. mr. specter. and what, in your opinion, was the cause of death? dr. jenkins. cerebral injury--brain injury. mr. specter. was president kennedy ever turned over during the course of this treatment at parkland? dr. jenkins. no. mr. specter. why was he not turned over, dr. jenkins? dr. jenkins. oh, i think this was beyond our prerogative completely. i think as we pronounced the president dead, those in attendance who were there just sort of melted away, well, i guess "melted" is the wrong word, but we felt like we were intruders and left. i'm sure that this was considerably beyond our prerogative, and the facts were we knew he had a fatal wound, and i think my own personal feeling was that this was--would have been meddlesome on anybody's part after death to have done any further search. mr. specter. was any examination of his back made before death, to your knowledge? dr. jenkins. no, no; i'm sure there wasn't. mr. specter. did he remain on the stretcher cart at all times while he was being cared for? dr. jenkins. yes, sir. can i say something that isn't in the report here, or not? mr. specter. yes; let's go off the record a minute. (discussion off the record between counsel specter and the witness, dr. jenkins.) mr. specter. may the record show that we are back on the record and dr. jenkins has made an interesting observation about the time of the declaration of death, and i will ask you, dr. jenkins, for you to repeat for the record what you have just said off the record. dr. jenkins. as the resuscitative maneuvers were begun, such as "chest cardiac massage," there was with each compression of the sternum, a gush of blood from the skull wound, which indicated there was massive vascular damage in the skull and the brain, as well as brain tissue damage, and we recognized by this time that the patient was beyond the point of resuscitation, that he was in fact dead, and this was substantiated by getting a silent electrical pattern on the electrocardiogram, the cardioscope that was connected up. however, for a period of minutes, but i can't now define exactly, since i didn't put this in a report, after we knew he was dead, we continued attempted resuscitative maneuvers. when we saw the two priests who arrived in the corridor outside the emergency room where this was taking place, i went to the door and asked one of those--after turning over my ventilation, my respiration job to another one of my department--and asked him what is the proper time to declare one dead. that is, i am not a catholic and i was not sure of the time for the last rites. as i remember now, he said, "the time that the soul leaves the body--is not at exactly the time that medical testimony might say that death was declared." there would be a period of time and so if we wished to declare him dead at that time they would still have the final rites. mr. specter. did they then have the final rites after the time he was declared dead medically? dr. jenkins. well, just a minute now--i suspect that was hazy to me that day--i'm not sure, it's still hazy. this was a very personal--on the part of the very anguished occasion, and mrs. kennedy had come back into the room and most of the people were beginning to leave because they felt like this was such a grief stricken and private affair that they should not be there. it was real intrusion even after they put forth such efforts at resuscitation and i'm not sure now whether the priests came in while i was still doing the resuscitative procedure, respiration at least, and while dr. clark was still doing the other. my memory is that we had stopped. i was still present, however, and that's the reason i'm not clear, because i hadn't left the room and i was still there as the rites were performed and a prayer was said. mr. specter. dr. jenkins, would your observation of the wound and your characterization of it as an exit hole be consistent with a set of facts which i will ask you to assume for purposes of giving me your view or opinion. assume, first of all, if you will, that president kennedy had a wound on the upper right posterior thorax just above the upper border of the scapula, measuring cm. from the tip of the right acromion process and cm. below the tip of the right mastoid process, and that the missile was a . mm. jacketed bullet fired from a weapon having a muzzle velocity of approximately , feet per second and approximately to feet from the president, and that after entering the president's body at the point indicated, the missile traveled between two strap muscles and through a fascia plane without violating the pleura cavity, and then struck the right side of the trachea and exited through the throat, would the throat wound which you observed be consistent with such a wound inflicted in the manner i have just described? dr. jenkins. as far as i know, it wouldn't be inconsistent with it, mr. specter. mr. specter. what has your experience been with gunshot wounds, that is, to what extent have you had experience with such wounds? dr. jenkins. well, having been chief of the anesthesia service here for this years, we have a rather large trauma emergency service, and so i see gunshot wounds many times a week. i'm afraid i couldn't hazard a guess at the moment as to how many we see a year, and i'm afraid probably if i knew, i would not like to admit to this number, but i do go further in saying that my main interest is not in the tracks of the wounds. my main interest is what physiological changes that they have caused to the patient that i am to anesthetize or a member of the department is to anesthetize, what has happened to the cardiovascular system, respiratory, and neurological, and so i am aware of the wounds of entrance and exit only by a peripheral part of my knowledge and activities during the time. mr. specter. have you ever had any formal training in ballistics or in exit wounds or entrance wounds--bullet wounds? dr. jenkins. no, i have not. mr. specter. have you talked to any representative of the federal government at any time prior to today? dr. jenkins. oh, there was a man whose name i don't remember now, who showed what looked like the proper credentials from the fbi, who came to ask only whether the report i had submitted to mr. price for the hospital record or for mr. price's record constituted all the reports i had. that's the only time, and that was the extent of our conversation, i think. mr. specter. and is that the only written record you have of your participation in the treatment of the president? dr. jenkins. oh, i submitted one to the dean of the medical school, essentially the same, and a very little more. i don't think you have that. i don't know whether you want it or not. mr. specter. yes, i would like to see it. dr. jenkins. it is essentially the same report--however--can i ask you something off of the record here? mr. specter. sure. (discussion between counsel specter and the witness, dr. jenkins, off the record.) mr. specter. the record will show that we have been off the record on a couple of matters which i am going to now put on the record, but i will ask the court reporter to identify this as dr. jenkins' exhibit no. . (instrument referred to marked by the reporter as dr. jenkins' exhibit no. , for identification.) mr. specter. i will ask you, dr. jenkins, for the record to identify this as a report which you submitted to dean gill. dr. jenkins. yes, it is. mr. specter. and is this in conjunction with the report you submitted to mr. price--do these reports constitute all the writings you have on your participation in the treatment of president kennedy? dr. jenkins. yes; that's right. mr. specter. one of the comments we were just discussing off the record--i would like to put on the record, dr. jenkins, is the question as to whether or not the wound in the neck would have been fatal in your opinion, absent the head wound. what would your view of that be? dr. jenkins. well, from my knowledge of the wound in the neck, this would not have been fatal, except for one thing, and that is--you have not told me whether the wound with its point of entrance and point of exit had contacted the vertebral column in its course? mr. specter. it did not. dr. jenkins. in that case i would not expect this wound to have been fatal. mr. specter. what is your view, dr. jenkins, as to whether the wounds which you observed were caused by one or two bullets? dr. jenkins. i felt quite sure at the time that there must have been two bullets--two missiles. mr. specter. and, dr. jenkins, what was your reason for that? dr. jenkins. because the wound with the exploded area of the scalp, as i interpreted it being exploded, i would interpret it being a wound of exit, and the appearance of the wound in the neck, and i also thought it was a wound of exit. mr. specter. have you ever changed any of your original opinions in connection with the wounds received by president kennedy? dr. jenkins. i guess so. the first day i had thought because of his pneumothorax, that his wound must have gone--that the one bullet must have traversed his pleura, must have gotten into his lung cavity, his chest cavity, i mean, and from what you say now, i know it did not go that way. i thought it did. mr. specter. aside from that opinion, now, have any of your other opinions about the nature of his wounds or the sources of the wounds been changed in any way? dr. jenkins. no; one other. i asked you a little bit ago if there was a wound in the left temporal area, right above the zygomatic bone in the hairline, because there was blood there and i thought there might have been a wound there (indicating). mr. specter. indicating the left temporal area? dr. jenkins. yes; the left temporal, which could have been a point of entrance and exit here (indicating), but you have answered that for me. this was my only other question about it. mr. specter. so, that those two points are the only ones on which your opinions have been changed since the views you originally formulated? dr. jenkins. yes, i think so. mr. specter. on the president's injuries? dr. jenkins. yes, i think so. mr. specter. is the conversation you had with that secret service agent the only time you were interviewed by anyone from the federal government prior to today about this subject? dr. jenkins. as far as i remember--i don't believe so. mr. specter. now, you say that was the only time you were interviewed? dr. jenkins. yes, as far as i remember--i have had no formal interviews. i have been asked--there have been some people calling on the phone. as you know, there were many calls from various sources all over the country after that, wanting to know whether we had done this method of treatment or some other method and what principles we followed. mr. specter. but the only one you can identify as being from the federal government is the one you have already related from the secret service? dr. jenkins. yes. mr. specter. and did you and i have a very brief conversation before the deposition started today, when you gave me some of your views which you expounded and expanded upon during the course of the deposition on the record? dr. jenkins. yes. mr. specter. and is there anything which you think of to add that you believe would be of some assistance or any assistance to the president's commission in its inquiry? dr. jenkins. i believe not, mr. specter. mr. specter. well, thank you very much, dr. jenkins. dr. jenkins. all right. testimony of dr. ronald coy jones the testimony of dr. ronald coy jones was taken at : a.m., on march , , at parkland memorial hospital, dallas, tex., by mr. arlen specter, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. specter. may the record show at this point that dr. ronald jones has arrived in response to a letter of request to give his deposition for the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy. dr. jones, the purpose of the president's commission is to investigate all the facts relating to the shooting and subsequent medical treatment of president kennedy and we have asked you to appear to testify concerning your knowledge of that treatment. with that statement of purpose, will you stand up and raise your right hand. do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before the president's commission during the course of this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? dr. jones. i do. mr. specter. would you state your full name for the record, please? dr. jones. ronald coy jones. mr. specter. what is your profession, sir? dr. jones. general surgery--resident physician. mr. specter. are you duly licensed by the state of texas to practice medicine? dr. jones. yes. mr. specter. will you outline briefly your educational background? dr. jones. i graduated--i went to undergraduate school at the university of arkansas from to , in pre-med. from through , i went to medical school and graduated from the university of tennessee in memphis, and in through i took an internship in los angeles county general hospital. from there i went to the university of oklahoma and took a -year general practice residency, year, the first year, entailing a year of internal medicine and its subspecialties, and a second year of surgery and its subspecialties, which was approved by the american board of surgeons for year of surgical training, and from until the present time i have taken an additional years of general surgery at parkland, and have served as chief resident of surgery. mr. specter. did you have occasion to aid in the medical treatment of president kennedy on november , ? dr. jones. yes, sir. mr. specter. would you relate briefly the circumstances surrounding your being called into the case? dr. jones. i was eating lunch with dr. perry and i heard the operator page dr. tom shires of the staff on two occasions, and the second time i answered the phone and the operator told me that the president had been shot and was being brought to the emergency room. i turned around and immediately notified miss audrey bell, who is the operating room supervisor so that any arrangements could be made for immediate surgery, and dr. m. t. jenkins, who is the chief of the anesthesiology department. from there i went across the room and notified dr. perry of the shooting and we both went together to the emergency room, and it was at that time we arrived shortly after the president had been brought in. mr. specter. what is your best estimate as to the time you arrived at the emergency room? dr. jones. it was, i would say, around or minutes until . mr. specter. and who was present, if anyone, at the time you arrived? dr. jones. dr. james carrico, and possibly dr. richard dulany, and i'm not sure that he was there or was there for just a few minutes after we arrived. i do recall seeing him there as one of the first ones. mr. specter. was any nurse present at that time? dr. jones. the head nurse in the emergency room was present and---- mr. specter. do you know her name? dr. jones. it's left my mind right now--i know her. mr. specter. could that be miss henchliffe? dr. jones. she was there, i believe. mr. specter. mrs. bowron? dr. jones. no--just the-- mr. specter. mrs. nelson? dr. jones. nelson. mr. specter. was anyone else present then, other than those whom you have already mentioned at the time you arrived? dr. jones. there were three nurses there--mrs. nelson, miss henchliffe and miss bowron. mr. specter. and were any other doctors present when you arrived? dr. jones. dr. carrico was the only doctor other than possibly dr. dulany, and i do know dr. carrico was there when i arrived. mr. specter. was dr. don curtis there when you arrived? dr. jones. i didn't see him. mr. specter. and who arrived with you, if you recall? dr. jones. dr. perry. mr. specter. and what did you observe the president's condition to be upon your arrival? dr. jones. he appeared to be terminal, if not already expired, and dr. carrico said that he had seen some attempted respirations, agonal respirations, and with that history, we went ahead with emergency measures to try to restore the airway. mr. specter. when you say "attempted agonal respiration," do you mean an effort by the president? dr. jones. yes. mr. specter. or, an effort by someone else to induce respiration? dr. jones. no, these apparently were as dr. carrico saw the president was attempting to respire on his own, however, i did not personally see this in the brief seconds that i stood there before i went ahead and started work. mr. specter. what is the lay definition for agonal respiration? dr. jones. these are the respirations that are somewhat of a strain, that is, seen in a patient who is expiring--just very short, irregular type respirations. mr. specter. would you continue now to describe what you observed to be the president's condition? dr. jones. we felt that he was in extreme shock, merely by the fact that there was no motion, that he was somewhat cyanotic, his eyes were--appeared to be fixed; there was no evidence of motion of the eyes; and we noticed that he did not have a satisfactory airway or was not breathing on his own in a satisfactory way to sustain life so that we felt that either an endotracheal tube had to be instituted immediately, which was done by dr. carrico. we felt that this was not adequate and since tracheotomy equipment was in the room, we felt that he would profit more by tracheotomy and that we could be certain that he was getting adequate oxygen. mr. specter. what was done with respect to applying oxygen to the president then? dr. jones. well, a tracheotomy was done, and then an adapter was fitted to this tube, and we had an anesthesia machine there by this time with dr. jenkins available so that he could give him straight oxygen from the machine. mr. specter. did you observe anything else with respect to the president's condition at that time? dr. jones. you mean as far as wounds--that he had? mr. specter. did you observe any wounds? dr. jones. as we saw him the first time, we noticed that he had a small wound at the midline of the neck, just above the suprasternal notch, and this was probably no greater than a quarter of an inch in greatest diameter, and that he had a large wound in the right posterior side of the head. mr. specter. when you say "we noticed," whom do you mean by that? dr. jones. well, dr. perry and i were the two that were there at this time observing. mr. specter. did dr. perry make any comment about the nature of the wound at that time? either wound? dr. jones. not that i recall. mr. specter. will you describe as precisely as you can the nature of the head wound? dr. jones. there was large defect in the back side of the head as the president lay on the cart with what appeared to be some brain hanging out of this wound with multiple pieces of skull noted next with the brain and with a tremendous amount of clot and blood. mr. specter. will you describe as precisely as you can the wound that you observed in the throat? dr. jones. the wound in the throat was probably no larger than a quarter of an inch in diameter. there appeared to be no powder burn present, although this could have been masked by the amount of blood that was on the head and neck, although there was no obvious amount of powder present. there appeared to be a very minimal amount of disruption of interruption of the surrounding skin. there appeared to be relatively smooth edges around the wound, and if this occurred as a result of a missile, you would have probably thought it was a missile of very low velocity and probably could have been compatible with a bone fragment of either--probably exiting from the neck, but it was a very small, smooth wound. mr. specter. did you notice any lump in the throat area? dr. jones. no; i didn't. mr. specter. was there any blood on the throat area in the vicinity of the wound which you have described of the throat? dr. jones. not a great deal of blood, as if in relation to the amount that was around the head--not too much. mr. specter. what further action was taken by the medical team in addition to that which you have described on the tracheotomy? dr. jones. well, as dr. perry started the tracheotomy, i started the cut down in the left arm to insert a large polyethylene catheter, to give an i.v. so that we could give i.v. solutions as well as blood, and at the same time another doctor or two were doing some cutdowns in the lower extremities around the ankle. we made the cutdown in the left arm in the cephalic vein very rapidly and i.v. fluids were started immediately and as i was doing this, dr. perry was performing the tracheotomy, and it was about this time that dr. baxter came in and went ahead to assist dr. perry with the tracheotomy, and as they made a deeper incision in the neck to isolate the trachea, they thought they saw some gush of air and the possibility of a pneumothorax on one side or the other was entertained, and since i was to the left of the president, i went ahead and put in the anterior chest tube in the second intercostal space. mr. specter. was that tube fully inserted, doctor? dr. jones. i felt that the tube was fully inserted, and this was immediately connected to underwater drainage. mr. specter. what do you mean by "connected to underwater drainage", dr. jones? dr. jones. the tube is connected to a bottle whereby it aerates in the chest from a pneumothorax and as the patient breathes, the air is forced out under the water and produces somewhat of a suction so that the lung will reexpand and will not stay collapsed and this will give adequate aeration to the body, and we decided to go ahead and put in a chest tube on the opposite side; since i could not reach the opposite side due to the number of people that were working on the president. dr. baxter was over there helping dr. perry on that side, as well as dr. paul peters, the assistant head of urology here, and the three of us then inserted the chest tube on the right side, primarily done by dr. baxter and dr. peters on the right side. mr. specter. then what other treatment, if any, was afforded president kennedy? dr. jones. after the tracheotomy was done, the intravenous fluid, blood was started--i believe that the president was also administered some hydrocortisone because of his history of adrenal insufficiency, and at this time an electrocardiogram had been connected and it showed no evidence of a heartbeat. closed cardiac massage was then first begun by dr. perry and then i believe that after about minutes no significant or no myocardial activity was present and he was pronounced dead. mr. specter. what history did you refer to of president kennedy's adrenal insufficiency? dr. jones. as i recall, there had been in news that the president had several years ago been on some type of steroid therapy and that he possibly had addison's disease. we had no documented evidence that he did or did not, but caution was taken nonetheless in case his insufficiency was of severe enough nature, because at the time of severe trauma a patient with adrenal insufficiency often goes into a rapid degree of adrenal insufficiency and can expire from lack of steroids being produced from the adrenal gland in such a stressed situation. mr. specter. did you obtain that history from mrs. kennedy, or any other person on the scene? dr. jones. no. mr. specter. you just relied upon what had been occurring in the news? dr. jones. yes. mr. specter. what would that reaction cause, if anything, if the president had no adrenal insufficiency? dr. jones. this would not cause severe effects on any organ at all if the adrenal gland were producing enough steroids. mr. specter. did any other doctors arrive during the time this treatment was going on, other than those whom you have already mentioned? dr. jones. several doctors did subsequently appear in the room--dr. mcclelland appeared shortly after dr. baxter, within a matter of just a very few minutes, as well as dr. kemp clark, who is head of neurosurgery here. mr. specter. any other doctors? dr. jones. dr. jenkins was there and i think these are primarily the ones that actually had any part, as far as taking care of the president, although there were some other doctors in the room. mr. specter. dr. jones, i now hand you a report which purports to bear your signature, labeled "summary of treatment of the president," dated november , , which i shall now ask the court reporter to mark as dr. jones' exhibit no. . (instrument mentioned marked by the reporter as dr. jones' exhibit no. , for identification.) mr. specter. i ask you if this in fact is your signature? dr. jones. yes. mr. specter. and i ask you if this was the report which you submitted concerning your participation of the treatment of president kennedy? dr. jones. yes; it was. mr. specter. in this report, dr. jones, you state the following, "previously described severe skull and brain injury was noted as well as a small hole in anterior midline of the neck thought to be a bullet entrance wound." what led you to the thought that it was a bullet entrance wound, sir? dr. jones. the hole was very small and relatively clean cut, as you would see in a bullet that is entering rather than exiting from a patient. if this were an exit wound, you would think that it exited at a very low velocity to produce no more damage than this had done, and if this were a missile of high velocity, you would expect more of an explosive type of exit wound, with more tissue destruction than this appeared to have on superficial examination. mr. specter. would it be consistent, then, with an exit wound, but of low velocity, as you put it? dr. jones. yes; of very low velocity to the point that you might think that this bullet barely made it through the soft tissues and just enough to drop out of the skin on the opposite side. mr. specter. what is your experience, doctor, if any, in the treatment of bullet wounds? dr. jones. during our residency here we have approximately complete year out of the years on the trauma service here, and this is in addition to the months that we spend every other day and every other night in the emergency room during our first year, so that we see a tremendous number of bullet wounds here in that length of time, sometimes as many as four and five a night. mr. specter. have you ever had any formal training in bullet wounds? dr. jones. no. mr. specter. have you ever had occasion to observe a bullet wound which was inflicted by a missile at approximate size of a . mm. bullet which passed through the body of a person and exited from a neck without striking anything but soft tissue from the back through the neck, where the missile came from a weapon of the muzzle velocity of , feet per second, and the victim was in the vicinity of to feet from the weapon? dr. jones. no; i have not seen a missile of this velocity exit in the anterior portion of the neck. i have seen it in other places of the body, but not in the neck. mr. specter. what other places in the body have you seen it, dr. jones? dr. jones. i have seen it in the extremity and here it produces a massive amount of soft tissue destruction. mr. specter. is that in the situation of struck bone or not struck bone or what? dr. jones. probably where it has struck bone. mr. specter. in a situation where it strikes bone, however, the bone becomes so to speak a secondary missile, does it not, in accentuating the soft tissue damage? dr. jones. yes. mr. specter. dr. jones, did you have any speculative thought as to accounting for the point of wounds which you observed on the president, as you thought about it when you were treating the president that day, or shortly thereafter? dr. jones. with no history as to the number of times that the president had been shot or knowing the direction from which he had been shot, and seeing the wound in the midline of the neck, and what appeared to be an exit wound in the posterior portion of the skull, the only speculation that i could have as far as to how this could occur with a single wound would be that it would enter the anterior neck and possibly strike a vertebral body and then change its course and exit in the region of the posterior portion of the head. however, this was--there was some doubt that a missile that appeared to be of this high velocity would suddenly change its course by striking, but at the present--at that time, if i accounted for it on the basis of one shot, that would have been the way i accounted for it. mr. specter. and would that account take into consideration the extensive damage done to the top of the president's head? dr. jones. if this were the course of the missile, it probably--possibly could have accounted for it, although i would possibly expect it to do a tremendous amount of damage to the vertebral column that it hit and if this were a high velocity missile would also think that the entrance wound would probably be larger than the one that was present at the time we saw it. mr. specter. did you observe whether or not there was any damage to the vertebral column? dr. jones. no, we could not see this. mr. specter. did you discuss this theory with any other doctor or doctors? dr. jones. yes; this was discussed after the assassination. mr. specter. with whom? dr. jones. with dr. perry--is the only one that i recall specifically, and that was merely as to how many times the president was shot, because even immediately after death, within a matter of minutes, the possibility of a second gunshot wound was entertained and that possibly he had been shot more than once. mr. specter. did you observe any wound on the president's back? dr. jones. no. mr. specter. was the president ever turned over? dr. jones. not while i was in the room. mr. specter. what was he on when you first saw him? dr. jones. he was on an emergency room cart, which is on wheels and can be changed to varying heights and also varying positions, as far as elevating the head or elevating the feet, lowering the head and so forth. mr. specter. was he ever taken off that cart from the time he was brought into the emergency room to the time he was pronounced to be dead? dr. jones. no. mr. specter. doctor, are you working toward board certification at this time? dr. jones. yes. mr. specter. and what is your status on your progress with that, generally? dr. jones. i will finish my formal training in surgery in july of this year, which will complete years of general surgery residency. mr. specter. how old are you at the present time, dr. jones? dr. jones. thirty-one. mr. specter. have you discussed this matter with any representatives of the federal government prior to today? dr. jones. yes, i believe the secret service has been here on at least two occasions. mr. specter. and what did they ask you on those occasions? dr. jones. i think, primarily, to verify that what i had written was true and that i had been one of the first doctors to be in the room with the president. mr. specter. did they ask you anything else other than that? dr. jones. on one occasion they asked if there were any other pieces of paper that had been written on as to the care that had been administered to the president that i had not turned in, and i told them "no." mr. specter. and did you and i sit down and talk for a few minutes before we went on the record in this deposition, with me indicating to you the general purpose and the line of questioning, and you setting forth the same information which we have put on the record here today? dr. jones. yes, sir. mr. specter. do you have anything to add which you think might be helpful to the commission in any way? dr. jones. no, sir. mr. specter. that concludes the deposition. thank you very much, dr. jones. dr. jones. all right. testimony of dr. don teel curtis the testimony of dr. don teel curtis was taken at : a.m., on march , , at parkland memorial hospital, dallas, tex., by mr. arlen specter, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. specter. let the record show that present are dr. don curtis and the court reporter, in connection with the deposition proceeding being conducted by the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy, which is inquiring into all facets of the assassination, including the medical treatment performed for president kennedy. dr. don curtis is appearing here this morning in response to a letter requesting him to testify concerning his knowledge of that medical treatment of president kennedy. with that preliminary statement of the general objective of the commission and the specific objective of this deposition proceeding, dr. curtis, will you rise and raise your right hand, please? do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before this presidential commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? dr. curtis. i do. mr. specter. would you state your full name for the record, please? dr. curtis. dr. don teel, t-e-e-l (spelling) curtis. mr. specter. and what is your occupation or profession? dr. curtis. oral surgeon. mr. specter. would you outline briefly your educational background? dr. curtis. i attended my freshman year at boulder, colo., colorado university, subsequent years of undergraduate work at texas university, years at baylor dental college, and i have been interning here for a year and a half. mr. specter. what year did you graduate from baylor dental college? dr. curtis. . mr. specter. what is your age at the present time? dr. curtis. twenty-six. mr. specter. and what has your work consisted of here at parkland hospital? dr. curtis. i have functioned as an intern in oral surgery and also now am a resident this year in oral surgery. mr. specter. are you a licensed dentist? dr. curtis. yes. mr. specter. and when did you obtain that status in the state of texas? dr. curtis. i think in august of . mr. specter. did you have occasion to assist in the medical treatment of president john f. kennedy on november , ? dr. curtis. yes. mr. specter. would you outline briefly the circumstances surrounding your call or your joining in the participation in that medical effort? dr. curtis. i was--do you want me to tell from the time that i got to the emergency room? mr. specter. yes--how did you happen to get to the emergency room? dr. curtis. i was in our out-patient clinic and saw the president's car, or i saw that it had arrived at the emergency room entrance, and i went over there as a matter of curiosity and was directed into the emergency room and there was directed by a policeman into the room where president kennedy was. mr. specter. about what time was that? dr. curtis. i don't know--it was shortly after he arrived. mr. specter. approximately how long after he arrived? dr. curtis. i would say it was within--i would say within a minute after he arrived at the trauma room, although there's no way for me to know that. mr. specter. who was present in the trauma room at that time? dr. curtis. dr. carrico and a nurse, i believe. mr. specter. do you know the identity of the nurse? dr. curtis. no. mr. specter. what did you observe, if anything, as to the condition of president kennedy at that time? dr. curtis. i observed that he was in a supine position, with his head extended, and i couldn't see on my arrival--i couldn't see the nature of the wounds, however, dr. carrico was standing at the patient's head. dr. carrico had just placed an endotracheal tube and i participated in applying the bird machine respirator into the endotracheal tube for artificial respiration. mr. specter. how does it happen that you would participate to that effect in view of the fact that you are an oral surgeon? dr. curtis. we participate in the emergency room on traumatic injuries of both the face and the entire patient, because the face is hooked onto a patient. we have a tour through anesthesia. we spend time on general anesthesia where we learn management of the patient's airway which makes us, i would say, qualified, for airway management. in our training here at the hospital we many, many times have patients on intravenous infusion and so we are well acquainted with the procedures attendant with the management of i.v. fluids. mr. specter. is there always someone from oral surgery available at the trauma area? dr. curtis. one of the oral surgeons is on call at the emergency room at all times and we try to stay within a very short distance from the emergency room. we see many patients in the emergency room area. mr. specter. is that for the purpose of rendering aid for someone who would be injured in a way which would call for an oral surgeon? dr. curtis. yes--maxillofacial injuries. mr. specter. and in addition, you help out in a general way when there is an emergency situation? dr. curtis. yes. mr. specter. now, was there anything in president kennedy's condition which called for the application of your specific specialty? dr. curtis. no; there wasn't. mr. specter. so, you aided in a general way in the treatment of him as an emergency case? dr. curtis. yes. mr. specter. now, would you continue to tell me what you have observed with respect to his condition when you first saw him, including what you noted, if anything, with respect to his respiration. dr. curtis. it is very difficult to say whether or not the president was making a respiratory effort, but i'm not sure that he wasn't making a respiratory effort. mr. specter. do you think that he was making a respiratory effort? dr. curtis. he could have been, and that's as far as i can go on it. mr. specter. did you observe movements of the chest? dr. curtis. i thought i did. mr. specter. what was his coloring? dr. curtis. he was pink--he wasn't cyanotic when i saw him. mr. specter. and will you explain in lay terms what cyanotic means for the record at this point? dr. curtis. when the hemoglobin of the blood is reduced, it turns a blue color and the patient becomes blue, when a certain percentage of the hemoglobin is reduced. that's not a lay term either, but when the patient is in oxygen need or oxygen want, cyanosis would be apparent. mr. specter. and how does that manifest itself in the patient? dr. curtis. the patient will be a blue, gray, ashen color. mr. specter. what action was dr. carrico taking upon your arrival? dr. curtis. he had placed an endotracheal tube in the president's trachea for artificial respiration. mr. specter. was he doing anything else? dr. curtis. yes; he was applying the bird machine. mr. specter. will you describe what other steps he was taking, if any? dr. curtis. he directed that a tracheotomy setup be brought to the emergency room, and i think it was dr. carrico directed me to start the i.v. fluids. mr. specter. and what, if anything, did you do in response to his direction? dr. curtis. i assisted him in fitting the tube from the bird machine to the endotracheal tube and i assisted in removing some of the president's clothes and did the cutdown on his leg. mr. specter. and what, specifically, did you do pursuant to the cutdown on his leg? dr. curtis. a small incision was made on the ankle and a vein is bluntly dissected free, small holes placed in the vein and a venous catheter is placed in this vein and a purse string ligature is then tied around the catheter at one end, and then the wound was closed with sutures. mr. specter. now, did you do anything else to the president following that operative procedure? dr. curtis. then, the initial cutdown that i started was ineffective and infiltrated into the tissues. i think possibly i cut the knot too close of the purse string ligature, so i was getting ready to do another one and it was decided since fluids were going in the other leg, it wouldn't be necessary. mr. specter. what other action did you take, if any, in the treatment of the president? dr. curtis. that's all. mr. specter. did you remain in the trauma room no. ? dr. curtis. i did until he was pronounced dead. mr. specter. what action was taken by anyone else in the trauma room while you were there? dr. curtis. my attention was focused on what i was doing, so i wasn't aware--i knew that a cutdown was being performed and that is about all i could see. i mean, i knew that a tracheotomy was being performed. mr. specter. what other doctors were present there at that time? dr. curtis. i know that dr. perry was there and i know dr. baxter was there, and then i recall dr. jenkins from the anesthesia department, and dr. seldin, dr. crenshaw, and that's about all the doctors--i could think of others probably, but i can't remember now. mr. specter. can you identify any other nurses who were there? dr. curtis. no; i can't--i wasn't paying attention to the nurses. mr. specter. during the course of your presence near president kennedy, did you have any opportunity to observe any wounds on his body? dr. curtis. after i had completed the cutdown, i went around to the right side of the patient and saw the head wound. mr. specter. and what did you observe there? dr. curtis. oh--fragments of bone and a gross injury to the cranial contents, with copious amounts of hemorrhage. mr. specter. did you observe any other wound on the president? dr. curtis. no; i didn't. as i said before, i noticed the mass in the pre-tracheal area. mr. specter. and when you say "as you said before," you mean in our previous discussions prior to going on the record here? dr. curtis. yes. mr. specter. and will you state now for the record what you did notice with respect to the tracheal area? dr. curtis. the president's head was extended or hyperextended and i noticed that in the suprasternal notch there was a mass that looked like a hematoma to me, or a blood clot in the tissues. mr. specter. how big was that hematoma? dr. curtis. oh, i think it was cm. in size. mr. specter. what color was it? dr. curtis. it had no color--there was just skin overlying it. mr. specter. what did it appear to be? dr. curtis. probably a hematoma. mr. specter. did you observe any perforation or hole in the president's throat? dr. curtis. no; i didn't. but that doesn't mean it wasn't there. mr. specter. did you have an opportunity to look closely for it? dr. curtis. i focused my attention on his neck for an instant, and that's all. mr. specter. did you hear any discussion among any of the doctors about an opening on his neck? dr. curtis. no; i didn't. mr. specter. did you make any written report concerning your activity on the president? dr. curtis. no; i didn't. mr. specter. have you any notes or writings of any sort concerning your work with the president? dr. curtis. no. mr. specter. have you talked to any representatives of the federal government about your participation in treating president kennedy before today? dr. curtis. no; i haven't. mr. specter. prior to the time that we went on the record here with the court reporter, did you and i have a very brief conversation concerning the purpose of the deposition and the general questions which i would ask you on the record? dr. curtis. yes. mr. specter. and is the information which you have provided on the record the same as that which you gave me before the court reporter started taking notes? dr. curtis. yes. mr. specter. do you have anything to add which you think would be helpful to the commission in its work? dr. curtis. no; i don't think so. mr. specter. thank you very much, dr. curtis, for coming here today. dr. curtis. all right. testimony of dr. fouad a. bashour the testimony of dr. fouad a. bashour was taken at : p.m., on march , , at parkland memorial hospital, dallas, tex., by mr. arlen specter, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. specter. may the record show that dr. fouad bashour has appeared pursuant to a letter of request from the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy, in connection with the commission's inquiry into all of the factors surrounding the assassination of the president, including medical treatment received at parkland hospital, and dr. bashour's knowledge, if any, as related to the treatment in the emergency room. with that preliminary statement of purpose, dr. bashour, would you mind rising and then raise your right hand? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the president's commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? dr. bashour. i do. mr. specter. would you state your full name for the record, please? dr. bashour. f-o-u-a-d (spelling), fouad a. bashour. mr. specter. what is your profession, sir? mr. bashour. i am an internist with a specialization in cardiology. i am associate professor of medicine. mr. specter. are you duly licensed by the state of texas to practice medicine here? dr. bashour. yes. mr. specter. and are you board certified at the present time? dr. bashour. no, sir; i don't have my board because i am not yet a citizen. i will be taking my citizenship this year, i hope, and then i will be able to sit for the board. mr. specter. did you have occasion to assist in the treatment of president kennedy back on november , ? dr. bashour. yes; we were called from the dining room, the doctors' dining room, and we went directly to the president kennedy room. mr. specter. when you say "we" whom do you mean by that? dr. bashour. dr. seldin and myself--we left the dining room and went right straight down to the president's room. mr. specter. and what is dr. seldin's first name? dr. bashour. donald. mr. specter. and what is his specialty, if any? dr. bashour. he's chairman of the department of medicine and professor of medicine. he is a specialist and a recognized famous specialist in renal diseases. mr. specter. and what, in lay language, does that facet of medicine involve? dr. bashour. kidney diseases. mr. specter. did dr. seldin accompany you into the emergency room where president kennedy was located? dr. bashour. we went to the room together and then i was left alone because this is a problem--a heart problem. mr. specter. did dr. seldin remain in the room with you? dr. bashour. well, he came and stayed for--he just left the room after we came in. mr. specter. how long did he stay in the room? dr. bashour. a few seconds. mr. specter. who was present in the room when you arrived? dr. bashour. when i arrived, dr. kemp clark was doing the cardiac massage on the president, dr. jenkins was in charge of controlling artificial respiration of the president, and the probably there were some three or four--i don't remember. mr. specter. and what did you observe the president's condition to be at the time you arrived? dr. bashour. the president was lying on the stretcher, the head wound was massive, the blood was dripping from the head, and at that time the president had an endotracheal tube, and his pupils were dilated, his eyes were staring, and they were not reactive, there was no pulsations, his heart sounds were not present, and his extremities were cold. then, we attached the scope--the cardioscope and there was a flip, this was probably artificial. upon stopping the cardiac machine, there was no cardiac activity. that means the heart was standing still. we continued cardiac massage and still there was no cardiac activities, so the president was declared dead shortly thereafter. mr. specter. at approximately what time was he declared dead? dr. bashour. well, according to my notes, we said here, "declared dead about : ," or so. mr. specter. was that a precise time fixed or was that just a general approximation? dr. bashour. no, sir; approximation. mr. specter. when you refer to the "flip" what do you mean by that, dr. bashour? dr. bashour. on the scope--some change in the baseline of the scope. mr. specter. did that indicate some activity in the president's heart? dr. bashour. no, sir; not necessarily. mr. specter. what else could have accounted for the flip besides that? dr. bashour. anything extraneous could have accounted for that. mr. specter. so, you require a number of flips before you inquire if there is heart activity? dr. bashour. well, it depends on the configuration of the flip--if the flip resembles an electrocardiogram activity--it shows cardiac activity. mr. specter. was that configuration of the flip like heart activity or not? dr. bashour. it wasn't, as far as i know. mr. specter. that is your field, is it not, you read those flips? dr. bashour. well, it's my field to see the electrocardiograms; yes. mr. specter. and, in your professional opinion, the flip which you saw was not a conclusive indicator of heart activity? dr. bashour. as a matter of fact, when he removed his hand, there was nothing. mr. specter. and who is "he"? dr. bashour. dr. clark, who was doing the cardiac massage. mr. specter. what else was done to the president, if anything, in addition to those things you have already mentioned after you arrived on the scene? dr. bashour. really, as far as i know, it was the end of the scene--nothing was done afterward. mr. specter. did you observe any wound besides the head wound which you have just described? dr. bashour. no; i did not observe any wounds. mr. specter. what was the condition of the front part of the president's neck upon your arrival? dr. bashour. the only thing--it was covered with the endotracheal tube--i did not really pay attention to it. mr. specter. did you have an opportunity to see the neck wound before the tracheotomy was performed? dr. bashour. no; i came after everything was done to him. mr. specter. doctor, i show you a group of papers heretofore marked as "commission exhibit no. ," and i call your attention to the photostatic copy of a sheet which purports to be a report made by you on november , , at : p.m., is that your report? dr. bashour. yes. mr. specter. and is that in fact your signature? dr. bashour. yes. mr. specter. and are the facts set forth therein the essence of what you observed and what you know about this matter? dr. bashour. yes. mr. specter. have you talked to anyone from the federal government prior to today about your treatment of president kennedy? dr. bashour. there was a security officer or something called me on the phone one day and said did i write any note besides this note on the chart, and i said "no." i don't know his name even. mr. specter. what note was he referring to? dr. bashour. this note here. mr. specter. he asked you if you wrote what? dr. bashour. other notes than this. mr. specter. if you had any other notes? dr. bashour. yes. mr. specter. and do you have any other notes other than the one i have just shown you? dr. bashour. no. mr. specter. did the secret service agent ask you anything else other than that? dr. bashour. no. mr. specter. and did you talk to any other representative of the federal government on any occasion prior to today? dr. bashour. no, sir. mr. specter. and, did you and i talk for a few minutes about the type of questions i would be asking you during this deposition? dr. bashour. yes. mr. specter. and is the information which you have given me on the record here and written down by the court reporter the same as you told me before she arrived? dr. bashour. yes. mr. specter. and, will you give me just an outline of your educational background, doctor? dr. bashour. i got my baccalaureate from french government in --first part. i got my second part, baccalaureate in mathematics and science in , i got my b.a. degree in from the american university of beirut, my m.d. degree in , and my ph. d. in from the university of minnesota. i came back to this country in from the american university of beirut, as an instructor, and from to i jumped from instructor to assistant professor to associate professor in february . mr. specter. do you have anything to add which you think will be helpful in any way to the president's commission? dr. bashour. no, sir. mr. specter. thank you very much for coming, dr. bashour. dr. bashour. thank you very much. testimony of dr. gene coleman akin the testimony of dr. gene coleman akin was taken at : a.m., on march , , at parkland memorial hospital, dallas, tex., by mr. arlen specter, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. specter. may the record show that dr. gene akin is present in response to a letter request that he appear to have his deposition taken in connection with an inquiry being conducted by the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy. dr. akin is being asked to appear here today to testify concerning his knowledge, if any, about the condition of president kennedy on arrival in parkland hospital and his treatment here. with that preliminary statement of purpose, dr. akin, will you rise and raise your right hand, please? do you solemnly swear the testimony you shall give before the president's commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you god? dr. akin. i do. mr. specter. will you state your full name, please? dr. akin. gene coleman akin. mr. specter. what is your profession? dr. akin. medicine. mr. specter. are you duly licensed to practice in texas, to practice medicine? dr. akin. yes. mr. specter. do you have any specialty? dr. akin. anesthesiology. mr. specter. and are you board-certified? dr. akin. no. mr. specter. are you working toward board-certification? dr. akin. yes. mr. specter. would you outline briefly your educational background? dr. akin. premedical school at university of texas in austin, medical school, southwestern medical school branch of the university of texas, internship, dallas methodist hospital, and anesthesiology residence at parkland memorial hospital, starting in july . mr. specter. and, in what year did you graduate from medical school? dr. akin. . mr. specter. and how old are you at the present time, doctor? dr. akin. thirty-four. mr. specter. did you have occasion to render assistance to president john f. kennedy on november , ? dr. akin. briefly. mr. specter. would you state how you came to be called into the case? dr. akin. i was notified while i was on duty in the operating suite of the hospital that anesthesia assistance was needed in the emergency room. president kennedy supposedly had been shot and had been brought to the emergency room, and i immediately went down the back elevator to the emergency room to see if i could be of assistance, and when i walked in, a tracheotomy was being performed. president kennedy still had an endotracheal tube, an oro-tracheal tube in place, and the connector from this to the bird respirator was removed. the anesthesia machine had been simultaneously rolled into the room and dr. jenkins connected the anesthesia machine to the oro-tracheal tube and it stayed there for a brief period, until the tracheotomy tube was placed in the tracheotomy, at which time i connected the breathing tubes from the anesthesia machine to the tracheotomy and held this in place while dr. jenkins controlled the ventilation with -percent oxygen from the anesthesia machine. mr. specter. did you assist dr. jenkins then in his work? dr. akin. only insofar as i held the endotracheal connector in place into the tracheotomy tube. mr. specter. what doctors in addition to dr. jenkins then were present, if any, at the time of your arrival? dr. akin. you mean everybody in the room? i don't know that i can name all of them. mr. specter. name as many as you can, if you will, please? dr. akin. there was dr. jenkins, there was myself for a brief period, there was dr. giesecke, dr. jackie hunt--they left shortly after arriving. i heard later that they had gone across the hall to governor connally's room to assist him; dr. malcolm perry, dr. charles baxter, dr. kemp clark, dr. bob mcclelland, dr. james carrico, dr. ron jones, was there. i think, shortly after i arrived, and dr. fouad bashour came in from cardiology; dr. don seldin walked in briefly, i can't remember the team that worked on the cutdowns on the legs--i can't remember that. this is sort of hazy, because it was a couple of days later we went through the same business over again and i am liable to say that there was somebody there that worked on kennedy that actually had worked on oswald, because i was on the oswald mess too. this is all that i remember were positively there. i remember their being there, but there were others that i am not sure of. mr. specter. what did you observe as to the president's condition? dr. akin. he looked moribund in my medical judgment. mr. specter. did you observe any wounds on him at the time you first saw him? dr. akin. there was a midline neck wound below the level of the cricoid cartilage, about to . cm. in diameter, the lower part of this had been cut across when i saw the wound, it had been cut across with a knife in the performance of the tracheotomy. the back of the right occipitalparietal portion of his head was shattered, with brain substance extruding. mr. specter. returning to the wound which you first described, can you state in any more detail the appearance of it at the time you first saw it? dr. akin. i don't think i could--this is about all i noticed. i noticed this wound very briefly and it was a matter of academics as to how he sustained the wound. my attention, because of my standing on the right side of the patient who was lying supine, my attention was very soon directed to the head wound, and this was my major concern. mr. specter. and as to the neck wound, did you have occasion to observe whether there was a smooth, jagged, or what was the nature of the portion of the neck wound, which had not been cut by the tracheotomy? dr. akin. it was slightly ragged around the edges. mr. specter. and when you said that---- dr. akin. no powder burns; i didn't notice any powder burns. mr. specter. what was the dimension of the punctate wound, without regards to the tracheotomy which was being started? dr. akin. it looked--it was as you said, it was a punctate wound. it was roughly circular, about, i would judge, . cm. in diameter. mr. specter. what did you mean when you just made your reference to the academic aspect with the wound, dr. akin? dr. akin. well, naturally, the thought flashed through my mind that this might have been an entrance wound. i immediately thought it could also have been an exit wound, depending upon the nature of the missile that made the wound. mr. specter. what would be the circumstances on which it might be one or the other? dr. akin. well, if the president had been shot with a low velocity missile, such as fire from a pistol, it was more likely to have been an entrance wound, is that what you mean? mr. specter. yes. dr. akin. if, however, he had been shot with a high velocity military type of rifle, for example, it could be either an entrance wound or an exit wound. mr. specter. why do you say it could be either an entrance wound or an exit wound with respect to the rifle? dr. akin. well, because a high velocity missile coming from a military rifle, especially if the missile were a jacketed missile, a copper- or steel-jacketed missile, itself, the missile itself is not distorted when it passes through soft tissue, and the wound made when the bullet leaves the body, is a small wound, much like the wound of entrance, but like i said, i didn't devote much time to conjecture about this. mr. specter. how much experience have you had, if any, on gunshot wounds, doctor? dr. akin. i can't really give you, say, how many cases a week i see of this. most of my experience with this is in an anesthetic situation with patients coming into the hospital, having sustained gunshot injuries, most of them are injured with low velocity missiles, smaller caliber--. caliber to . caliber, and most of them are not injured in a through and through fashion. in other words, i don't see too many exit wounds, the bullets are slow moving, and they enter the body and don't leave it. they usually stay in it, so consequently i could not be considered an expert in exit wounds. mr. specter. is that the general line of bullet wounds which come into parkland hospital, would you say? dr. akin. what i have just described, you mean? mr. specter. yes. dr. akin. yes; i think so. most of the people seem to be shot with cheap ammunition fired out of inferior weapons. mr. specter. would your experience with the type of bullet wounds you have just described be about the same as the other doctors have here at parkland, or would there be some difference between what you have seen on bullet wounds and what the other doctors have seen? dr. akin. i think so, except there is one difference--i am not ordinarily on duty in the emergency room, so i am not very often the first doctor to see one of these people injured in this fashion. when i see them they are people who have sustained a gunshot injury, but who lived to make it to the operating room. we, i'm sure, have a lot of people who are shot and who are dead on arrival at the emergency room, and they are examined by the emergency room physicians, and i never see them, so there would be a lot of people down there that i never have seen. they might be injured with a hunting rifle or a good quality ammunition, and i would not have seen them. mr. specter. dr. akin, permit me, if you will, to give you a set of facts which i will ask you to assume for the purpose of giving me an opinion, if you are able to formulate one. assume that the president was struck by a . mm. missile which had a muzzle velocity of approximately , feet per second at a time when the president was approximately to feet away from the weapon. assume further that the bullet entered the president's body in the upper right posterior thorax just above the upper border of the scapula at a point cm. from the tip of the right acromion process and cm. below the tip of the right mastoid process. assume further that the missile traveled through or in between, rather, the strap muscles without penetrating either muscle but going in between the two in the area of his back and traveled through the fascial channel without violating the pleura cavity, and that the bullet struck the side of the trachea and exited from the throat in the position of the punctate wound which you have described you saw, would the wound you saw be consistent with a wound of exit under the factors that i have just outlined to you? dr. akin. as far as i know, it is perfectly compatible from what you have described, except when you say it passed through without injuring the strap muscles, are you talking about the anterior strap muscles of the neck or are you talking about the posterior muscles of the neck? mr. specter. the anterior strap muscles of the neck. dr. akin. it's a matter of clarification because there are no strap muscles posterior, by my terminology. yes, this is perfectly consistent with what i know about, or what i have been told by military experts, concerning high velocity missile injuries. mr. specter. and what is the basis of your information from the military experts you just referred to? dr. akin. military rifle demonstrations when i was a senior student at brooks air force base in san antonio. we took a brief two day tour there with demonstrations of high velocity missile injury. mr. specter. with respect to the head wound, dr. akin, did you observe below the gaping wound which you have described any other bullet wound in the back of the head? dr. akin. no; i didn't. i could not see the back of the president's head as such, and the right posterior neck was obscured by blood and skull fragments and i didn't make any attempt to examine the neck. mr. specter. did you have any opportunity to observe the president's clothes? dr. akin. i noticed them. mr. specter. with respect to examining the shirt, for example, to see what light that would shed, if any, on the trajectory of the bullet? dr. akin. no; i didn't. the front of the chest was uncovered, the pants had been loosened and lowered below the iliac crest, and the only article of clothing i noticed in particular was his back corset. mr. specter. what did you observe with respect to the back corset which you just mentioned? dr. akin. it had been loosened and was just lying loose. mr. specter. can you describe the corset, indicating how wide it was? dr. akin. the only portion i saw was the front portion of the corset and it was about, i'd say, or inches in width, and made out of some white heavy fabric with the usual straps and buckles. mr. specter. did you notice any ace bandage strapping the president's buttocks area? dr. akin. no. mr. specter. was that area of his anatomy visible to you? dr. akin. not his buttocks, he was lying supine. mr. specter. was president kennedy ever turned over, to your knowledge? dr. akin. not while i was there. mr. specter. and how long were you there altogether, dr. akin? dr. akin. oh, probably , maybe --perhaps minutes. mr. specter. were you present when he was pronounced to be dead? dr. akin. yes--i didn't leave until dr. clark and dr. jenkins had mutually agreed that nothing else could be done. mr. specter. what time was he pronounced dead? dr. akin. hours. mr. specter. and what, in your opinion, was the cause of death? dr. akin. massive gunshot injury to the brain--primary cause. mr. specter. you have already described some of the treatment which was performed on the president; could you supplement that by describing what else was done for the president? dr. akin. other than the placement of chest tubes, artificial respiration, brief external cardiac massage--i don't know. anything else i said would be hearsay, and i understand that he did receive some cortisone. he received so much ringer's lactate, but this is not of my own personal knowledge. mr. specter. how many bullets were involved in the wounds inflicted on the president, dr. akin? dr. akin. probably two. mr. specter. have you ever changed any of your original opinions in connection with your observations of the president or any opinions you formed in connection with what you saw? dr. akin. you mean as to how he was injured? mr. specter. yes, as to how he was injured. dr. akin. well, no; not really because i didn't have any opinions, necessarily. any speculation that i might have done about how he was injured was just that, it was just speculation. i didn't form an opinion until it was revealed where he was when he was injured and where the alleged assassin was when he fired the shots, so i didn't have any opinions. it was my immediate assumption that when i saw the extent of the head wound, i assumed at that point that he had probably been hit in the head with a high velocity missile because of the damage that had been done. the same thing happened to his head and would happen to a sealed can of sauerkraut that you hit with a high velocity missile. mr. specter. did you have any opinion as to the direction that the bullet hit his head? dr. akin. i assume that the right occipitalparietal region was the exit, so to speak, that he had probably been hit on the other side of the head, or at least tangentially in the back of the head, but i didn't have any hard and fast opinions about that either. mr. specter. have you been interviewed by any representative of the federal government prior to today? dr. akin. you mean concerning this matter? mr. specter. concerning this matter. dr. akin. i think i was probably interviewed by a member of the secret service some weeks ago. mr. specter. what did you say to him? dr. akin. virtually the same thing, as i recall--i didn't make as long a statement, he just wanted to know where i was and what i did and i told him briefly and that seemed to satisfy him. mr. specter. and is that the only time you have been interviewed by any representative of the federal government concerning this matter prior to today? dr. akin. yes; as far as i can remember. mr. specter. and before i started to take your deposition, did you and i have a very brief discussion about the nature of the deposition and the questions i would ask you? dr. akin. yes. mr. specter. and did you give me about the same information, exactly the same information you have put on the record here this morning? dr. akin. to my knowledge; yes. mr. specter. do you have anything to add which you think might be of assistance to the president's commission in their inquiry? dr. akin. no; i don't think so. i don't know exactly if there is any disagreement or discrepancy in the testimony from the various people who have testified, so i don't know. this is all i saw. mr. specter. that's fine. thank you very much, dr. akin. dr. akin. that's all right, thank you. testimony of dr. paul conrad peters the testimony of dr. paul conrad peters was taken at p.m., on march , , at parkland memorial hospital, dallas, tex., by mr. arlen specter, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. specter. may the record show that dr. paul peters is present, having responded to a request to have his deposition taken in connection with the investigation of the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy, which is investigating all aspects of the assassination, including the medical treatment of president kennedy at parkland memorial hospital, and for the latter sequence of events we have asked dr. peters to appear and testify what he knows, if anything, concerning that medical attention. with that statement of purpose in calling you, dr. peters, may i ask you to rise and raise your right hand? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the president's commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you god? dr. peters. i do. mr. specter. now, will you state your full name for the record, please? dr. peters. paul conrad peters. mr. specter. and what is your profession, sir? dr. peters. doctor of medicine. mr. specter. and will you outline for me briefly your educational background? dr. peters. i went to college at indiana university in bloomington, ind., and received an a.b. degree from indiana university in , and received an m.d. degree from indiana university in . i took my internship at the philadelphia general hospital, and . i took my residency in urological surgery at indiana university from to , and from to i was chief of urology at u.s.a.f. hospital, carswell, which is the largest hospital in sac, and i was regional consultant to the surgeon general in urological surgery. since july , i have been assistant professor of urology at southwestern medical school. mr. specter. and are you board certified, dr. peters? dr. peters. i am certified by the american board of urology-- . mr. specter. did you have occasion to render medical services to president john kennedy on november , ? dr. peters. yes. mr. specter. and would you outline briefly the circumstances relating to your arriving on the scene where he was? dr. peters. as i just gave you a while ago? mr. specter. yes. dr. peters. i was in the adjacent portion of the hospital preparing material for a lecture to the medical students and residents later in the day, when i heard over the radio that the president had been shot and there was a great deal of confusion at the time and the extent of his injuries was not immediately broadcast over the radio, and i thought, because of the description of the location of the tragedy he would probably be brought to parkland for care, and so i went to the emergency room to see if i could render assistance. mr. specter. and at about what time did you arrive at the emergency room? dr. peters. well, could i ask a question or two? mr. specter. sure. dr. peters. as i recall, he was shot about : our time; is that correct? mr. specter. i believe that's been fixed most precisely at : , dr. peters. dr. peters. so, i would estimate it was probably about : when i got there, i really don't know for certain. mr. specter. whom did you find present, if anyone, when you arrived? dr. peters. when i arrived the following people i noted were present in the room: drs. perry, baxter, ron jones, and mcclelland. the first thing i noticed, of course, was that president kennedy was on the stretcher and that his feet were slightly elevated. he appeared to be placed in a position in which we usually treat a patient who is in shock, and i noticed that dr. perry and dr. baxter were present and that they were working on his throat. i also noticed that dr. ron jones was present in the room. i took off my coat and asked what i could do to help, and then saw it was president kennedy. i really didn't know it was president kennedy until that time. dr. perry was there and he and dr. baxter were doing the tracheotomy and we asked for a set of tracheotomy tubes to try and get one of the appropriate size. i then helped dr. baxter assemble the tracheotomy tube which he inserted into the tracheotomy wound that he and dr. perry had created. mr. specter. were there any others present at that time, before you go on as to what aid you rendered? dr. peters. i believe dr. carrico---- mr. specter. any other doctors present? dr. peters. and dr. jenkins was present. mr. specter. have you now covered all of those who were present at that time? dr. peters. and dr. shaw walked into the room and left--for a moment--but he didn't stay. he just sort of glanced at the president and went across the hall. mrs. kennedy was in the corner with someone who identified himself as the personal physician of the president--i don't remember his name. mr. specter. dr. burkley? dr. peters. i don't know his name. that's just who he said he was, because he was asking that the president be given some steroids, which was done. mr. specter. he requested that. dr. peters. that's right, he said he should have some steroids because he was an addisonian. mr. specter. what do you mean by that in lay language? dr. peters. well, addison's disease is a disease of the adrenal cortex which is characterized by a deficiency in the elaboration of certain hormones that allow an individual to respond to stress and these hormones are necessary for life, and if they cannot be replaced, the individual may succumb. mr. specter. and dr. burkley, or whoever was the president's personal physician, made a request that you treat him as an addisonian? dr. peters. that's right--he recommended that he be given steroids because he was an addisonian--that's what he said. mr. specter. were there any nurses present at that time? dr. peters. i don't remember a nurse being in the room all the time, but they were coming in and out. mr. specter. have you identified all the people who were present to the best of your recollection? dr. peters. did i mention dr. robert mcclelland, he was also there. mr. specter. was dr. dulany there? dr. peters. i don't remember him, he may have been. mr. specter. who else was there, if anyone, that you can recall, or have you now given me everyone you can recall? dr. peters. well, i am giving you my impression of the situation as i walked in and those are the ones i remember right now. dr. kemp clark also came in during the maneuvering. mr. specter. well, who else came in during the course of the operative procedures? dr. peters. the anesthesiologists, drs. jenkins and gene akin, i believe, came in. mr. specter. did anyone else come in? dr. peters. i am not certain of anyone else. mr. specter. now, tell us what aid was rendered to president kennedy. dr. peters. dr. perry and dr. baxter were doing the tracheotomy and a set of tracheotomy tubes was obtained and the appropriate size was determined and i gave it to baxter, who helped perry put it into the wound, and perry noted also that there appeared to be a bubbling sensation in the chest and recommended that chest tubes be put in. dr. ron jones put a chest tube in on the left side and dr. baxter and i put it in on the right side--i made the incision in the president's chest, and i noted that there was no bleeding from the wound. mr. specter. did you put that chest tube all the way in on the right side? dr. peters. that's our presumption--yes. mr. specter. and what else was done for the president? dr. peters. about the same time--there was a question of whether he really had an adequate pulse, and so dr. ronald jones and i pulled his pants down and noticed that he was wearing his brace which had received a lot of publicity in the lay press, and also that he had an elastic bandage wrapped around his pelvis at--in a sort of a figure eight fashion, so as to encompass both thighs and the lower trunk. mr. specter. what was the purpose of that bandage? dr. peters. i presume that it was--my thoughts at the time were that he probably had been having pelvic pain and had put this on as an additional support to stabilize his lower pelvis. it seemed quite interesting to me that the president of the united states had on an ordinary $ ace bandage probably in an effort to stabilize his pelvis. i suppose he had been having some back pain and that was my thought at the time, but we removed this bandage in an effort to feel a femoral pulse. we were never certain that we got a good pulse. mr. specter. would you describe in as much detail as you can the type of brace he was wearing? dr. peters. well, it appeared similar to a corset. mr. specter. how thick was it? dr. peters. i would estimate it was one-eighth of an inch. mr. specter. an eighth of an inch thick? dr. peters. yes. mr. specter. and how high was it? dr. peters. well, it completely encompassed his midsection. mr. specter. it encompassed his midsection? dr. peters. his circumference--yes--and it was probably, i would guess about to inches. mr. specter. in width? dr. peters. yes. mr. specter. running in his waist area at the top of his hips up to the lower part of his chest? dr. peters. i would estimate that it went from the lower part of his chest to the pelvic girdle. about this time it was noted also that he had no effective heart action, and dr. perry asked whether he should open the chest and massage the heart. in the meantime, of course, the tracheotomy had been done and completed and had been hooked on to apparatus for assisting his respiration. mr. specter. and what action, if any, was taken on the open-heart massage? dr. peters. it was pointed out that an examination of the brain had been done. dr. jenkins had observed the brain and dr. clark had observed the brain and it was pointed out to dr. perry that it appeared to be a mortal wound, and involving the brain, and that open-heart massage would probably not add anything to what had already been done, and that external cardiac massage is known to be as efficient as direct massage of the heart itself. mr. specter. was there any further treatment rendered to the president? dr. peters. yes, dr. perry began immediate external compression of the chest in an effort to massage the heart, even before he asked the question as to whether the thoracotomy should be done. as soon as there was a question as to whether there was a pulse or not, he immediately began external chest compression. mr. specter. what other action was taken to aid the president, if any? dr. peters. well, cut downs were done on the extremities, and tubes were inserted in the veins, and i know on the right ankle anteriorly, and i believe in the left arm and also in the left leg, in order to administer fluid and blood which he did receive. mr. specter. have you now described all of the medical attention given the president? dr. peters. well, i believe i have. mr. specter. and was the president subsequently pronounced dead? dr. peters. that's correct. mr. specter. and about what time was that pronouncement made? dr. peters. i could not give you the time within or minutes--i can tell you this much, though, i know what actually did happen. mr. specter. tell me that. dr. peters. i was--we pronounced him dead and i was in the room, present while the priest gave him the last rites, during which time there was dr. jenkins and dr. baxter and dr. mcclelland, mrs. kennedy, the priest, and myself. dr. perry had left, as had most of the others by that time. mr. specter. why did you remain? dr. peters. well, i just hadn't gotten out of the door when the priest first came in and dr. jenkins asked everyone to leave except those people i have just named. mr. specter. why did he exclude those from the group which were to leave? dr. peters. well, i think they were nurses, and several other people he thought just best not remain and i'm sure that there was no intention to personally exclude anyone behind his request. he just sort of looked around and saw who appeared to be there and asked the others to leave. mr. specter. what did you observe as to the nature of the president's wound? dr. peters. well, as i mentioned, the neck wound had already been interfered with by the tracheotomy at the time i got there, but i noticed the head wound, and as i remember--i noticed that there was a large defect in the occiput. mr. specter. what did you notice in the occiput? dr. peters. it seemed to me that in the right occipitalparietal area that there was a large defect. there appeared to be bone loss and brain loss in the area. mr. specter. did you notice any holes below the occiput, say, in this area below here? dr. peters. no, i did not and at the time and the moments immediately following the injury, we speculated as to whether he had been shot once or twice because we saw the wound of entry in the throat and noted the large occipital wound, and it is a known fact that high velocity missiles often have a small wound of entrance and a large wound of exit, and i'm just giving you my honest impressions at the time. mr. specter. what were they? dr. peters. well, i wondered whether or not he had been shot once or twice--that was my question at the time. mr. specter. when you say "we speculate," whom do you mean by that? dr. peters. well, the doctors in attendance there. mr. specter. any doctor specifically? dr. peters. i wouldn't mention anyone specifically, we all discussed it. i did not know whether or not he had been shot once or twice. mr. specter. did you have an opportunity to observe the wound on his neck prior to the time the tracheotomy was performed? dr. peters. no, i did not. the tracheotomy was already being done by dr. baxter and dr. perry when i got in the room. i did not see the wound on his neck. mr. specter. did you make any written reports on the treatment of president kennedy? dr. peters. no, i did not; no one asked me to. mr. specter. did you prepare any notes of any sort, or do you have any notes of any sort? dr. peters. no; i do not. mr. specter. what was the cause of death in your opinion? dr. peters. i would assume that it was irreversible damage to the centers in the brain which control the heart and respiration. mr. specter. have you talked to any representatives of the federal government about this matter prior to today? dr. peters. no; i have not. mr. specter. and prior to the time the court reporter came in, did you and i have a brief discussion as to the nature of this deposition and the questions that i would ask you? dr. peters. no; i was not informed as to any specific questions. i knew the general nature of the testimony which i would give. mr. specter. from the discussion? dr. peters. from the letter i had received from the counsel signed by mr. rankin. mr. specter. and did you and i have a brief conversation here in this room today before the court reporter came in? dr. peters. yes; we did. mr. specter. do you have anything to add which you think might be of assistance to the president's commission in its investigation? dr. peters. i do not--regarding the immediate condition of the president. mr. specter. thank you very much for coming, dr. peters, we are very much obliged to you. dr. peters. thank you. testimony of dr. adolph hartung giesecke, jr. the testimony of dr. adolph hartung giesecke, jr., was taken at : p.m., on march , , at parkland memorial hospital, dallas, tex., by mr. arlen specter, assistant counsel of the presidents commission. mr. specter. may the record show that dr. a. h. giesecke, jr., is present in response to a letter request from the commission to appear at this deposition proceeding in connection with the president's commission to investigate the assassination of president kennedy, including his medical treatment at parkland hospital. dr. giesecke has been asked to appear to testify about his knowledge of the treatment that president kennedy and governor connally received at parkland hospital on november , and with that preliminary statement of purpose and objective, would you please stand up, dr. giesecke, and raise your right hand? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before this president's commission in these deposition proceedings will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you god? dr. giesecke. yes; i do. mr. specter. will you state your full name, please, for the record? dr. giesecke. adolph hartung giesecke, jr. h-a-r-t-u-n-g (spelling). mr. specter. what is your profession? dr. giesecke. i am a physician and anesthesiologist. mr. specter. are you duly licensed to practice medicine in the state of texas? dr. giesecke. yes. mr. specter. are you board-certified? dr. giesecke. no, sir. mr. specter. are you working for board-certification? dr. giesecke. yes. mr. specter. will you outline briefly your educational background, please? dr. giesecke. i graduated--how far back do you want me to go? mr. specter. start with college, graduation from college, if you would, please. dr. giesecke. i was on an accelerated plan through the university of texas but have no college degree. i matriculated to medical school in , september , graduated may , , from the university of texas medical branch at galveston, tex. i did my internship at william beaumont army hospital at el paso, following which i served months on active duty in the army as an aviation medical officer. i was stationed primarily at the presidio at san francisco, calif. upon discharge from the army, i came to parkland hospital, completed a -year residency in anesthesiology in july . since that time i have been an assistant professor on the anesthesiology staff at southwestern medical school. mr. specter. did you have occasion to render medical attention to president kennedy on november , ? dr. giesecke. yes. mr. specter. will you outline the circumstances under which you were called into that matter? dr. giesecke. i was eating lunch in the cafeteria when dr. jenkins approached the table and told me that the president had been shot and asked me to bring some resuscitative equipment from the operating room to the emergency room, which i did. mr. specter. and at what time did you arrive at the emergency room, approximately? dr. giesecke. can i look and see when i induced the governor? mr. specter. yes. may the record show that dr. giesecke is now referring to a letter from a. h. giesecke, jr., m.d., to mr. c. j. price, administrator, dated november , , which i will ask the reporter to mark as "dr. giesecke's exhibit no. ." (instrument referred to marked by the reporter as "dr. giesecke exhibit no. ," for identification.) mr. specter. let me ask you a question or two, first about this, dr. giesecke, to qualify--is this a copy of the report which you submitted to mr. price? dr. giesecke. yes, that is a real copy. mr. specter. and all the facts contained in this report are true and correct? dr. giesecke. yes. mr. specter. and do they concern the treatment which was rendered by you to president kennedy and governor connally? dr. giesecke. that's correct. mr. specter. now, refer to that if you wish, if it will help you answer the last question. dr. giesecke. i arrived in the emergency room at : p.m., between : and : . mr. specter. and who was present at the time you arrived? dr. giesecke. dr. jenkins was present, dr. carrico, dr. dulany, dr. baxter, dr. perry, dr. mcclelland, and drs. akin and hunt arrived at the same time that i did. mr. specter. were there any other people present, such as nurses? dr. giesecke. mrs. kennedy was in the room--i could not say--i can't say who else was there. there may have been a nurse there, i just don't remember. it seemed to me there was a secret service man there too, with mrs. kennedy. mr. specter. are you sure dr. dulany was there, as distinguished from being with governor connally? dr. giesecke. perhaps--perhaps--i'm shaky on that. mr. specter. the reason i asked you about that specifically is because dr. carriro testified this morning that he and dr. dulany were on duty and dr. dulany went immediately with governor connally and dr. carrico went to president kennedy. dr. giesecke. that may well be. mr. specter. what was the condition of the president when you arrived? dr. giesecke. there was a great deal of blood loss which was apparent when he came in the room--the cart was covered with blood and there was a great deal of blood on the floor. there was--i could see no spontaneous motion on the part of the president. in other words, he made no movement during the time that i was in the room. as i moved around towards the head of the emergency cart with the anesthesia machine and the resuscitative equipment and helped dr. jenkins to hook the anesthesia machine up to the president to give him oxygen, i noticed that he had a very large cranial wound, with loss of brain substance, and it seemed that most of the bleeding was coming from the cranial wound. mr. specter. what did you observe specifically as to the nature of the cranial wound? dr. giesecke. it seemed that from the vertex to the left ear, and from the browline to the occiput on the left-hand side of the head the cranium was entirely missing. mr. specter. was that the left-hand side of the head, or the right-hand side of the head? dr. giesecke. i would say the left, but this is just my memory of it. mr. specter. that's your recollection? dr. giesecke. right, like i say, i was there a very short time--really. mr. specter. did you observe any other wound or bullet hole below the large area of missing skull? dr. giesecke. no; when i arrived the tracheotomy was in progress at that time and so i observed no other wound except the one on the cranium. mr. specter. on the cranium itself, did you observe another bullet hole below the portion of missing skull? dr. giesecke. no, sir; this was found later by dr. clark--i didn't see this. mr. specter. what makes you say that that hole was found later by dr. clark? dr. giesecke. well, this is hearsay--i wasn't there when they found it and i didn't notice it. mr. specter. well, dr. clark didn't observe that hole. dr. giesecke. oh, he didn't--i'm sorry. mr. specter. from whom did you hear that the hole had been observed, if you recollect? dr. giesecke. oh--i must be confused. we talked to so many people about these things--i don't remember. mr. specter. now, with respect to the condition of the president's neck, what was its status at the time you first observed it? dr. giesecke. well, like i say, they were performing the tracheotomy, and i personally saw no wound in the neck other than the tracheotomy wound. as soon as the tracheotomy was completed, we removed the endotracheal tube and hooked the anesthesia machine to the tracheotomy tube and efforts were made then to put in a chest tube, an anterior chest tube. mr. specter. how long were you with president kennedy altogether? dr. giesecke. approximately minutes. mr. specter. have you now described everything which was done during the time you were there? dr. giesecke. no--after having assisted dr. jenkins in establishing a ventilation, i then hooked up a cardiotachioscope or an electronic electrocardiographic monitor to the president by putting needles in the skin and plugging the thing in the wall, plugging the monitor in the wall. before the machine had sufficient time to warm up to see if there were any electrical activity, then i was called out of the room. mr. specter. and did you have any occasion to return to the room where the president was? dr. giesecke. no. mr. specter. and where were you called to? dr. giesecke. i was called across the hall where governor connally was being moved out of the emergency treatment room and toward the operating room. mr. specter. and what action did you take at that time, if any? dr. giesecke. i had my equipment with me--i had taken my equipment with me from the room where the president was, having ascertained that dr. jenkins didn't need anything that i had, and so i proceeded to the elevator. we moved the equipment and the governor--the governor went on the first elevator and i caught the second one. mr. specter. and where did you go on the second elevator? dr. giesecke. to the second floor where the operating suite is, moved off of the elevator and down to operating room , which was being set up for the governor. the governor had arrived and i obtained from the anesthesia orderly an anesthesia machine, checked it for safe operation, and discussed the governor's condition a little bit with him, and determined that he was conscious and that he could respond to questions and that he hadn't eaten in the previous several hours, and proceeded to induce an anesthesia. mr. specter. now, are all the details of your activity in connection with governor connally's operation contained in the report marked "dr. giesecke's exhibit no. "? dr. giesecke. yes. mr. specter. now, you mentioned a few minutes ago that you talked about this matter with a number of people--whom have you talked to, dr. giesecke? dr. giesecke. well, of course, we discussed it with dr. jenkins and various members of the anesthesia staff. we have discussed it with--i've forgotten that gentleman's name, but he was from the american medical association, as a historian. we discussed it with dr. mike bush, who then reported it in the anesthesiology newsletter, which is a publication of the american society of anesthesiologists, and then discussed it with the secretary of--may i retract that. that's about it--that's the extent of the discussion, except with other members of the surgical staff and the anesthesia staff and these people. mr. specter. have you ever discussed this matter with any representative of the federal government prior to today? dr. giesecke. yes; there was a well documented secret service man here who said he was from the warren commission about a month ago, i imagine. mr. specter. what do you mean by "well documented"? dr. giesecke. well, i mean he had a badge and a card and he seemed to be legitimate. mr. specter. and what did you tell him, if anything? dr. giesecke. he was asking rather specifically if we had made other notes than the reports that we had already submitted, so in essence it was just a matter of telling him, "no, i didn't have any other information written down except what i had already given." mr. specter. and what had you already given--that letter report? dr. giesecke. yes, sir. mr. specter. that is marked "giesecke exhibit no. "? dr. giesecke. yes. mr. specter. has any other representative talked to you from the federal government about this matter? dr. giesecke. no. mr. specter. this afternoon prior to the time we went on the record, did i ask you a few questions and discuss the nature of this deposition proceeding, and did you give me information just as you have on the record here after the court reporter started to take everything down? dr. giesecke. yes; that's correct. she was out of the room for a few minutes before we started. mr. specter. do you have anything to add which you think might be helpful to the warren commission in its investigation? dr. giesecke. no, i think that pretty well covers what i did. mr. specter. may i thank you very much, dr. giesecke? that's fine. dr. giesecke. thank you. testimony of dr. jackie hansen hunt the testimony of dr. jackie hansen hunt was taken at : p.m., on march , , at parkland memorial hospital, dallas, tex., by mr. arlen specter, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. specter. may the record show that dr. jackie h. hunt is present, and may i show for the record that the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy is conducting an inquiry into all the facts surrounding the assassination of the president, and the medical care performed on president kennedy at parkland memorial hospital. dr. hunt appears here today in response to a letter requesting that her deposition be taken, and may the record reflect the additional fact that dr. hunt is a lady doctor. would you at this time, dr. hunt, stand up and raise your right hand? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the president's commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? dr. hunt. i do, sir. mr. specter. will you state your full name, please? dr. hunt. jackie hansen hunt, h-a-n-s-e-n (spelling). mr. specter. and what is your profession? dr. hunt. medical doctor. mr. specter. and, are you duly licensed to practice medicine by the state of texas? dr. hunt. i am. mr. specter. and in what year were you so licensed? dr. hunt. . mr. specter. will you outline briefly your educational background, please? dr. hunt. i graduated from medical school at tulane college of medicine in . i had a year of rotating internship followed by a year of pediatric residency. in i started a residency in anesthesiology, which i completed in , and i am now a fellow in anesthesiology. mr. specter. are you board certified, then, dr. hunt, at this time? dr. hunt. no. mr. specter. are you working toward board certification? dr. hunt. yes, i am. i am eligible and will take the first part in june. mr. specter. did you have occasion on november to render medical aid to the late president kennedy? dr. hunt. yes. mr. specter. will you relate briefly the circumstances surrounding your being called into the case? dr. hunt. i was in parkland hospital on duty with the anesthesiology department and was notified by our chief of staff, dr. m. t. jenkins, that the president had been shot. together with dr. giesecke and dr. akin, i got an anesthesia machine and put it on an elevator and checked it out and set it up on the way to the emergency room and took it into the emergency room where the president was and he had been intubated, and i helped dr. jenkins connect the anesthesia machine to the endotracheal tube which at that time was being run, i believe, by a bird machine, and after making certain that the connections were properly done, i placed the equipment in dr. jenkins' hands. mr. specter. what doctors were present when you arrived there, dr. hunt? dr. hunt. dr. jenkins, dr. malc perry--quite a number of others--i just can't remember who was there today. mr. specter. were any nurses present? dr. hunt. yes--i don't know the names of any of them. mr. specter. what, if anything, did you observe as to the condition of president kennedy? dr. hunt. the first good look i took at him i noticed that his eyes were opened and that the pupils were widely dilated and fixed and so i assumed that he was in essence dead. mr. specter. at approximately what time did you arrive in the emergency room? dr. hunt. i don't know--it would have been--i would think near : , but i have really never even thought about it and i frankly don't remember. mr. specter. and how long after you arrived did you have an opportunity to observe the president in the way which you have just described? dr. hunt. how long was it from the time i came in until i looked at him? mr. specter. yes, ma'am. dr. hunt. a minute-- minutes. mr. specter. did you have any other observations at that time? dr. hunt. no--other than that everyone was working on him. they were doing cardiac massage, closed chest massage, i.v.'s were running, and others were being started. mr. specter. i.v.'s? dr. hunt. intravenous fluids and, of course, our department was breathing for him. mr. specter. and when you say "breathing for him," what do you mean by that? dr. hunt. ventilating him--an endotracheal tube down into the trachea attached to an anesthesia machine with percent oxygen going, and by manual compression of the bag, ventilating him. mr. specter. did you observe any wounds on the president? dr. hunt. i actually did not see the wounds. mr. specter. did you at any time see a wound to the head? dr. hunt. no; i didn't see it. mr. specter. and was there something obscuring your view from seeing the head wound? dr. hunt. yes; i could see his face and i could also see that a great deal of blood was running off of the table from his right side and i was on his left side. mr. specter. were you near his head or foot or the middle of the body? dr. hunt. i was about midbody actually, well, no--more at his shoulder, when i leaned over to look at him. mr. specter. did you ever observe any wound in the neck? dr. hunt. i did not actually see the wound in the neck. i say that because i assumed there was a wound--someone's hand was there and there was blood present, but there was blood on nearly everyone. mr. specter. what was the condition of his throat when you first observed him, if you did observe it at all? dr. hunt. i couldn't--i don't know--i can't say. you mean, as far as inside or outside? mr. specter. outside. dr. hunt. i don't actually remember seeing anything except someone's hands were using a sponge or something was present in the area. mr. specter. what medical operation, if any, was performed on his throat? dr. hunt. i don't know. mr. specter. did you observe a tracheotomy being performed on his throat? dr. hunt. no--that's not to say that they were not doing one. mr. specter. what else was done for the president other than that which you have already described? dr. hunt. well, let's see, i don't--as far as actual observation, i didn't--other things were done--i left at this time and went to governor connally. mr. specter. at about what time did you leave president kennedy? dr. hunt. i was probably in the room no more than minutes at the most. mr. specter. had he been pronounced dead by the time you left? dr. hunt. no; he had not. mr. specter. and where did you go when you left the president's room? dr. hunt. straight across to operating room . mr. specter. and what did you find in operating room when you arrived there? dr. hunt. governor connally was present there and---- mr. specter. what doctors, if any, were present when you arrived? dr. hunt. red duke--i'm sorry, i just don't remember who the others were. there were three or four. mr. specter. what action was being taken with respect to governor connally upon your arrival there? dr. hunt. they were placing chest tubes, as a matter of fact, they had one in and were putting the other one in, and were--they had an i.v. going, i believe someone had done a cutdown, and they were checking other wounds. he had a wound on his arm and another wound down on his leg, i think, and that was about it--preparing to take him promptly up to surgery. mr. specter. and what did you do on that occasion? dr. hunt. i walked in and dr. duke looked up and the first thing i did was to look at the governor--i took his pulse and he spoke to me and said something, and noted his color. mr. specter. what did the governor say to you? dr. hunt. he said something like, "it hurts," not anything real specific, but he did at least speak, and it was a conscious thought type of thing, so that he was more or less alert, responding, so then i stepped back into the hall and signaled a fellow, a medical student who has been in our department, that is rotating through anesthesia, and i happened to see him just outside the door, and i asked him to please go upstairs and bring me another unit of equipment and then came back in and told dr. duke i had sent for equipment, although i didn't believe the governor was going to need it, and he said that he was very glad that i had and he, too, didn't think he would need it, but he should have it as a standby, and then they brought me a machine and my table down and i stayed with the governor until he was ready to go upstairs, but he did not require any respiratory aid because he was not that critical. mr. specter. did you participate any further with the treatment of governor connally? dr. hunt. when we were ready to go upstairs, i went back to the room where the president was and dr. giesecke, who is a staff member from our department, appeared relatively free and i asked him if he would come and go upstairs with the governor and i came on upstairs in a different route. i didn't go in the elevator with the governor--dr. giesecke went with him, and helped dr. giesecke get under way with the surgery. mr. specter. how did you go upstairs, by what route? dr. hunt. i don't know--i don't remember. mr. specter. is there any other elevator going up to the operating rooms? dr. hunt. yes; there are four elevators. mr. specter. but do those lead from the emergency rooms? dr. hunt. no; you come down this long hallway up to those of the ground floor. mr. specter. is there more than one elevator for the stretcher to go through from the emergency room up to the second floor operating rooms? dr. hunt. yes; they can--they come up to these. mr. specter. what route would they have to take to do this? dr. hunt. they would have to come directly out of the emergency room and down this main hallway to this front bank of elevators. mr. specter. that would be a pretty long route, would it not? dr. hunt. actually, it isn't very long. i don't know in yards or paces even, but there are three elevators there. mr. specter. what route did governor connally use? dr. hunt. i think they took him by the back elevator, the one that comes down into the emergency room. mr. specter. is that the one they customarily use to take people from the emergency area into the operating room? dr. hunt. yes; if there is an emergency it goes straight up--they usually use that one. mr. specter. you say you went back to president kennedy's room? dr. hunt. yes. mr. specter. and what did you observe there at that time? dr. hunt. at that time i did notice, and possibly this was there earlier, i noticed that they had gotten more monitoring equipment in and connected the electronic equipment for monitoring the electrocardiogram. mr. specter. at what time did you return to president kennedy's room? dr. hunt. i don't know--it would probably have been maybe or or minutes from the time i stepped out, because i went across the hall--i didn't know the governor was there, and someone told me and i went in and just took a brief look at him to sort of size up his condition, and stepped out and sent for my equipment and went back in and stayed until they brought my equipment. it would have been a little longer than or minutes because they had to bring the equipment down the elevator and it had arrived and been there a few minutes-- or minutes before we were ready to take him upstairs. mr. specter. and what was going on in the president's room when you returned there? dr. hunt. well, there were still a goodly number of people, oh, at least people, possibly there were more--i'm not real sure, but there were still--at that time there were, i know, at least three anesthesiologists in there--dr. jenkins, dr. akin, and dr. giesecke, and i believe dr. baxter was in there, and dr. perry was still there. mr. specter. were they still working on the president at that time? dr. hunt. yes, sir; i don't know what they were doing. mr. specter. how long did you stay on that occasion? dr. hunt. just, oh, a minute--just long enough to catch dr. giesecke's eye and let him know i was there and going out. mr. specter. and did you ever return to the president's room? dr. hunt. no; i don't believe i did--no; i'm sure i didn't, because i came on upstairs with governor connally. mr. specter. and did you participate then with governor connally's operation? dr. hunt. i helped dr. giesecke during the induction of anesthesia. mr. specter. have you talked to any representative of the federal government prior to today? dr. hunt. no; i haven't. mr. specter. did you make any written report of your participation in the care of governor connally and president kennedy? dr. hunt. not directly. dr. giesecke called me one day and said that, i think it was the a.m.a. was here and just wanted to verify my movements for the day, which i told him and he in turn told them that--i did not appear before them. mr. specter. did you make any written reports yourself? dr. hunt. no. mr. specter. do you have any notes of any sort concerning your participation? dr. hunt. none whatsoever. mr. specter. prior to the time the court reporter started to take down the transcript of my questions and your answers, did you and i have a brief discussion about the purpose of this deposition? dr. hunt. yes. mr. specter. and the questions i would ask you? dr. hunt. yes. mr. specter. and is the information which you have provided on the record the same as you told me before the written deposition started? dr. hunt. elaborated somewhat. mr. specter. do you have anything to add which you think might be of aid to the commission in its investigation? dr. hunt. no, sir; i don't. mr. specter. thank you very much for appearing, dr. hunt. dr. hunt. thank you. testimony of dr. kenneth everett salyer the testimony of dr. kenneth everett salyer was taken at : p.m., on march , , at parkland memorial hospital, dallas, tex., by mr. arlen specter, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. specter. may the record show that dr. kenneth salyer is present in response to an inquiry that he appear to have his deposition taken in connection with the inquiries being conducted by the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy, which is looking into all facts of the shooting, including the wounds of the president and the care he received at parkland hospital. with that preliminary statement of purpose, dr. salyer, will you stand up and raise your right hand? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give before the president's commission in the course of this deposition will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? dr. salyer. i do. mr. specter. have you had an opportunity to examine the document or the executive order creating the president's commission and rules for the taking of testimony? dr. salyer. yes; i have. mr. specter. and are you willing to have your deposition taken today without having the formal three days of written notice, which you have a right to, if you wish? dr. salyer. yes. mr. specter. you are willing to waive that right, is that right? dr. salyer. yes. mr. specter. would you state your full name for the record, please? dr. salyer. kenneth everett salyer. mr. specter. what is your profession? dr. salyer. physician. mr. specter. are you duly licensed to practice medicine by the state of texas? dr. salyer. yes; i am. mr. specter. and would you outline briefly your educational background, please? dr. salyer. a b.s. degree at the university of kansas, an m.d. degree at the university of kansas, and internship at parkland, and now a first year resident in surgery at parkland hospital. mr. specter. in what year did you graduate from the university of kansas medical school? dr. salyer. . mr. specter. and how old are you, dr. salyer? dr. salyer. i am . mr. specter. will you relate briefly the circumstances surrounding your being called in to assist in the treatment of president kennedy? dr. salyer. well, for the month of november, as part of our rotation on surgery, i spent that month on neurosurgery, and being on call that day for any emergencies which come in to our emergency room related to neurosurgical problems, we would be called down to the emergency room to see these, and i was upstairs viewing a movie when i heard that the president had arrived and so i thought i should go down to the emergency room and see what the situation was. mr. specter. and, upon your arrival at the emergency room, who was present? dr. salyer. oh, i don't recall--i know that there were a room full of doctors--i could list specific ones that i remember if you would like. mr. specter. would you please? dr. salyer. i don't really think i could give you every one, but i remember dr. jenkins and dr. perry and dr. baxter, and also dr. bob mcclelland and dr. carrico and dr. crenshaw, and i think a dr. gene akin was there also--at that time, when i first came in. mr. specter. can you think of any others? dr. salyer. no; i don't recall any others--there could have been some, there were a lot of people sort of moving in and out. there certainly were a lot of nurses in there at that time. mr. specter. can you identify any of the nurses who were there? dr. salyer. no; i can't. mr. specter. what was the president's condition at the time you arrived? dr. salyer. it was critical. mr. specter. what did you observe about him with respect to any wounds he may have sustained? dr. salyer. well, i observed that he did have some sucking wound of some type on his neck, and that he also had a wound of his right temporal region--these were the two main wounds. mr. specter. did you have an opportunity to observe his throat? dr. salyer. no; i really did not. i think there were a lot of people--a lot of doctors more closely around him. i might mention also, i think just right after i came in the room dr. clark and dr. grossman also arrived. mr. specter. doctor who? dr. salyer. dr. grossman, just briefly. he's a neurosurgeon also. mr. specter. what is his name? dr. salyer. dr. grossman--bob grossman. he was just there, i think, briefly. mr. specter. how long was he there? dr. salyer. i couldn't say--i'm not sure he came in the room. i know they were together--i cannot say that for sure. mr. specter. to what extent did dr. crenshaw participate? dr. salyer. dr. crenshaw participated about the extent that i did. we were occupied in making sure an i.v. was going and hanging up a bottle of blood. mr. specter. is the--is dr. crenshaw a resident? dr. salyer. yes, he is third-year resident. that's the reason i remember him specifically because we were sort of working there together on that. mr. specter. i had asked you a moment ago whether you had an opportunity to observe the condition of the president's throat. dr. salyer. right. mr. specter. what was your answer to that question? dr. salyer. the answer was--there were a lot of doctors standing around, and i didn't really get to observe the nature of the wound in the throat. mr. specter. at approximately what time did you arrive at the emergency room where the president was situated? dr. salyer. i really don't know. mr. specter. what was done for the president by way of treatment that you observed? dr. salyer. well, an adequate airway eventually, of course, some external cardiac massage--he had i.v.'s--intravenous fluids going in a number of sites, and all of the acute measures we administered him. mr. specter. i didn't hear you at the end of your answer. dr. salyer. i said--all of the many other measures that we administered--i don't recall specifically some of the other details as far as medications and so forth. mr. specter. what did you observe with respect to the head wound? dr. salyer. i came in on the left side of him and noticed that his major wound seemed to be in his right temporal area, at least from the point of view that i could see him, and other than that--nothing other than he did have a gaping scalp wound--cranial wound. mr. specter. has anyone from the federal government talked to you about your observations of this matter? dr. salyer. no one has. mr. specter. do you have anything to add which you think may be of aid to the president's commission in its inquiry? dr. salyer. no, i believe not. dr. specter. thank you very much, dr. salyer. dr. salyer. thank you. testimony of dr. martin g. white the testimony of dr. martin g. white was taken at : p.m., on march , , at parkland memorial hospital, dallas, tex., by mr. arlen specter, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. specter. may the record show that dr. martin white is present in response to a request that he appear to have his deposition taken because he has been identified in prior depositions as being one of the doctors in attendance on president kennedy. dr. white, have you had an opportunity to examine the executive order creating the presidential commission? dr. white. yes. mr. specter. and have you had an opportunity to examine the resolution setting forth the rules for taking depositions? dr. white. yes. mr. specter. are you willing to have your deposition taken without the -day notice to which you have a right under the rules, if you wish to receive formal written notice? and have three days after mailing before you appear to have your deposition taken? dr. white. no, i want to have it taken now. mr. specter. you are willing to waive that requirement? dr. white. yes. mr. specter. will you stand up, then, and raise your right hand? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the president's commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? dr. white. i do. mr. specter. would you state your full name for the record, please? dr. white. martin g. white. mr. specter. what is your profession, sir? dr. white. m.d.--physician. mr. specter. are you duly licensed in the state of texas to practice medicine? dr. white. in this institution. mr. specter. what is your educational background, please? dr. white. i have a bachelor of medicine degree from northwestern university and a master of science degree from northwestern university and a doctor of medicine degree from northwestern university. mr. specter. how old are you, doctor? dr. white. twenty-five. mr. specter. were you in attendance when president kennedy was being treated on november , ? dr. white. i was. mr. specter. and what were the circumstances of your being called into the case? dr. white. i was the intern assigned to the surgery section of the emergency room on that day and was there when the president's body was brought into the emergency room. mr. specter. and what did you do in connection with the president's treatment? dr. white. i put an intervenous cutdown in the president's right foot. mr. specter. did you have an opportunity to observe any of his wounds? dr. white. i saw the wound in his head as he was brought into the trauma room where he was treated. mr. specter. did you observe any other wounds? dr. white. no, i did not see any other. mr. specter. did you observe specifically a wound in the neck? dr. white. i did not look and did not observe any. mr. specter. how long were you present while the president was being treated? dr. white. i would estimate about to minutes. mr. specter. and did you leave prior to the time he was pronounced to be dead? dr. white. yes; i did. mr. specter. why did you leave? dr. white. my duties had been completed and there was work elsewhere, with the governor, to be done. mr. specter. who was present at the time you were there, dr. white? dr. white. as best i can recall, dr. carrico and i were the physicians immediately present when the president's body was brought in, plus a number of individuals who accompanied the cart on which his body was lying, and the only individual who i knew in that group was his wife, mrs. kennedy. mr. specter. and what doctors were present at the time you left the room? dr. white. well, it would be impossible for me to tell you all the people that were there, but i knew dr. carrico, dr. baxter, dr. perry and dr. zedelitz, z-e-d-e-l-i-t-z (spelling)--i know they were there. mr. specter. doctor who--what is his first name? dr. white. william zedelitz. mr. specter. to what extent did he participate? dr. white. i don't believe that he had any--i don't know what he did other than the fact that when i was doing the cutdown he assisted me by just placing some tape over the catheters we used to do this with. mr. specter. is he an intern as you are? dr. white. he is a surgical resident here at this hospital. mr. specter. who else was present? dr. white. i can't be sure that i saw anyone else, although, as i say--many people were there whose faces i can't recall. mr. specter. can you identify any of the nurses who were present? dr. white. yes; one of the nurses--there were two there, jeanette, and her last name--i don't know at the present time, and she is chief nurse in the emergency room. mr. specter. doris nelson? dr. white. yes. mr. specter. jeanette standridge? dr. white. yes; jeanette standridge was the other nurse. mr. specter. do you have anything to add which you think might be of help to the commission? dr. white. no; i don't. mr. specter. thank you very much, dr. white for coming. dr. white. all right, thank you. testimony of dr. robert shaw the testimony of dr. robert shaw was taken at p.m., on march , , at parkland memorial hospital, dallas, tex., by mr. arlen specter, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. specter. may the record show that dr. robert shaw is present, having responded to a request to have his deposition taken in connection with the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy, which is investigating all facts relating to the medical care of president kennedy and governor connally, and dr. shaw has been requested to appear and testify concerning the treatment on governor connally. dr. shaw, will you rise and raise your right hand, please. do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the president's commission in the course of this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? dr. shaw. i do. mr. specter. will you state your full name for the record, please? dr. shaw. robert roeder shaw. mr. specter. and what is your profession, sir? dr. shaw. physician and surgeon. mr. specter. will you outline briefly your educational background, please? dr. shaw. i received my b.a. degree from the university of michigan in and m.d. degree in . my surgical training was obtained at roosevelt hospital in new york city, july to july , and my training in thoracic surgery at the university hospital, ann arbor, mich., july to july . do you want me to say what happened subsequent to then? mr. specter. yes; will you outline your medical career in brief form subsequent to that date, please? dr. shaw. i entered private practice, limited to thoracic surgery, august , . i have continuously practiced this specialty in dallas, with the exception of the period from june to december , when i was a member of the medical corps of the army of the united states, serving almost all of this period in the european theatre of operations. i was again absent from dallas from december until june , when i headed the medico team and performed surgery at the avicenna hospital at kabul, afghanistan. mr. specter. are you board certified, dr. shaw? dr. shaw. yes. i am certified by the board of thoracic surgery, date of certification-- . at the present time i am professor of thoracic surgery and chairman of the division of thoracic surgery at the university of texas, southwestern medical school. mr. specter. did you have occasion to perform any medical care for president kennedy on november , ? dr. shaw. no. mr. specter. did you have occasion to care for governor connally? dr. shaw. yes. mr. specter. would you relate the circumstances of your being called in to care for the governor, please? dr. shaw. i was returning to parkland hospital and the medical school from a conference i had attended at woodlawn hospital, which is approximately a mile away, when i saw an open limousine going past the intersection of industrial boulevard and harry hines boulevard under police escort. as soon as traffic had cleared, i proceeded on to the medical school. on the car radio i heard that the president had been shot at while riding in the motorcade. upon entering the medical school, a medical student came in and joined three other medical students. he stated that president kennedy had been brought in dead on arrival to the emergency room of parkland hospital and that governor connally had been shot through the chest. upon hearing this, i proceeded immediately to the emergency room of the hospital and arrived at the emergency room approximately minutes after the president and governor connally had arrived. mr. specter. where did you find governor connally at that time, dr. shaw? dr. shaw. i found governor connally lying on a stretcher in emergency room no. . in attendance were several men, dr. james duke, dr. david mebane, dr. giesecke, an anesthesiologist. as emergency measures, the open wound on the governor's right chest had been covered with a heavy dressing and manual pressure was being applied. a drainage tube had been inserted into the second interspace in the anterior portion of the right chest and connected to a water-sealed bottle to bring about partial reexpansion of the collapsed right lung. an intravenous needle had been inserted into a vein in the left arm and intravenous fluid was running. i was informed by dr. duke that blood had already been drawn and sent to the laboratory to be crossmatched with pints of blood, to be available at surgery. he also stated that the operating room had been alerted and that they were merely waiting for my arrival to take the governor to surgery, since it was obvious that the wound would have to be debrided and closed. mr. specter. at what time did the operation actually start, dr. shaw? dr. shaw. that, i would have to refresh my memory on that--now, this, of course--the point he began the anesthesia--that would be about right--but i have to refresh my memory. mr. specter. permit me to make available on the record for you the operative record which has been heretofore marked as commission exhibit no. , with the exhibit consisting of the records of parkland hospital on president kennedy as well as governor connally and i call your attention to a -page report which bears your name as the surgeon, under date of november , , of thoracic surgery for governor connally, and, first, i ask you if in fact this report was prepared by you? dr. shaw. it was. mr. specter. now, with that report, is your recollection refreshed as to the starting time of the operation on governor connally's chest? dr. shaw. yes; the anesthesia was begun at hours. mr. specter. which would be p.m.? dr. shaw. p.m., and the actual incision was made at or : p.m. mr. specter. and what time did that operation conclude? dr. shaw. my operation was completed at hours, or : . mr. specter. will you describe governor connally's condition, dr. shaw, directing your attention first to the wound on his back? dr. shaw. when governor connally was examined, it was found that there was a small wound of entrance, roughly elliptical in shape, and approximately a cm. and a half in its longest diameter, in the right posterior shoulder, which is medial to the fold of the axilla. mr. specter. what is the axilla, in lay language, dr. shaw? dr. shaw. the arm pit. mr. specter. dr. shaw, will you describe next the wound of exit? dr. shaw. yes; the wound of exit was below and slightly medial to the nipple on the anterior right chest. it was a round, ragged wound, approximately cm. in diameter. this wound had obviously torn the pleura, since it was a sucking wound, allowing air to pass to and fro between the pleura cavity and the outside of the body. mr. specter. define the pleura, please, doctor, in lay language. dr. shaw. the pleura is the lining of the chest cavity with one layer of pleura, the parietal pleura lining the inside of the chest wall, diaphragm and the mediastinum, which is the compartment of the body containing the heart, its pericardial sac, and great vessels. mr. specter. what were the characteristics of these two bullet wounds which led you to believe that one was a wound of entry and one was a wound of exit, dr. shaw? dr. shaw. the wound of entrance is almost invariably the smaller wound, since it perforates the skin and makes a wound approximately or slightly larger than the missile. the wound of exit, especially if it has shattered any bony material in the body, will be the larger of the wounds. mr. specter. what experience, doctor, have you had, if any, in evaluating gunshot wounds? dr. shaw. i have had considerable experience with gunshot wounds and wounds due to missiles because of my war experience. this experience was not only during the almost years in england, but during the time that i was head of the thoracic center in paris, france, for a period of approximately a year. mr. specter. would you be able to give an approximation of the total number of bullet wounds you have had occasion to observe and treat? dr. shaw. considering the war experience and the addition of wounds seen in civilian practice, it probably would number well over a thousand, since we had over admissions to the hospital in paris. mr. specter. what was the line of trajectory, dr. shaw, between the point in the back of the governor and the point in the front of the governor, where the bullet wounds were observed? dr. shaw. considering the wound of entrance and the wound of exit, the trajectory of the bullet was obliquely downward, considering the fact that the governor was in a sitting position at the time of wounding. mr. specter. as an illustrative guide here, dr. shaw---- dr. shaw. may i add one sentence there? mr. specter. please do. dr. shaw. the bullet, in passing through the governor's chest wall struck the fifth rib at its midpoint and roughly followed the slanting direction of the fifth rib, shattering approximately cm. of the rib. the intercostal muscle bundle above the fifth rib and below the fifth rib were surprisingly spared from injury by the shattering of the rib, which again establishes the trajectory of the bullet. mr. specter. would the shattering of the rib have had any effect in deflecting the path of the bullet from a straight line? dr. shaw. it could have, except that in the case of this injury, the rib was obviously struck so that not too dense cancellus portion of the rib in this position was carried away by the bullet and probably there was very little in the way of deflection. mr. specter. at this time, dr. shaw, i would like to call your attention to an exhibit which we have already had marked as dr. gregory's exhibit no. , because we have used this in the course of his deposition earlier today and this is a body diagram, and i ask you, first of all, looking at diagram no. , to comment as to whether the point of entry marked on the right shoulder of governor connally is accurate? dr. shaw. yes. the point of entry as marked on this exhibit i consider to be quite accurate. mr. specter. is the size and dimension of the hole accurate on scale, or would you care to make any adjustment or modification in that characterization by picture? dr. shaw. as the wound entry is marked on this figure, i would say that the scale is larger than the actual wound or the actual depicting of the wound should be. as i described it, it was approximately a centimeter and a half in length. mr. specter. would you draw, dr. shaw, right above the shoulder as best you can recollect, what that wound of entry appeared at the time you first observed it? would you put your initials right beside that? (the witness, dr. shaw, complied with the request of counsel specter.) mr. specter. now, directing your attention to the figure right beside, showing the front view, does the point of exit on the lower chest of the figure there correspond with the point of exit on the body of governor connally? dr. shaw. yes; i would say that it conforms in every way except that it was a little nearer to the right nipple than depicted here. off the record, just a minute. (discussion between counsel specter and the witness, dr. shaw, off the record.) mr. specter. dr. shaw, in our off-the-record conversation, you called my attention to your thought that the nipple line is incorrectly depicted on that figure, would you, therefore, in ink mark on there the nipple line which would be more accurate proportionately to that body? dr. shaw. yes; i feel the nipple line as shown on this figure is a little high and should be placed at a lower point on the body, which would bring the wound of exit, which i feel is in the proper position, more in line with the actual position of the nipple. mr. specter. now, with the wound of exit as it is shown there, does that correspond in position with the actual situation on governor connally's body as you have redrawn the proportion to the nipple line? dr. shaw. it does. mr. specter. would you put an "x" through the old nipple line so we have obscured that and put your initials beside those two marks, if you would, please? dr. shaw. by the "x- "? mr. specter. yes, please. (the witness, dr. shaw, complied with request of counsel specter in drawing on the figure heretofore mentioned.) mr. specter. now, as to the proportion of the hole depicting the point of exit, is that correct with respect to characterizing the situation on governor connally? dr. shaw. it is, and corresponds with the relative size of the two wounds as i have shown on the other figure. mr. specter. would you at this time, right above the right shoulder there, draw the appearances of the point of exit as nearly as you can recollect it on governor connally? dr. shaw. this is right. mr. specter. you say the hole which appears on governor connally is just about the size that it would have been on his body? dr. shaw. yes; it is drawn in good scale. mr. specter. in good scale to the body? dr. shaw. yes. mr. specter. would you draw it on another portion of the paper here in terms of its absolute size? dr. shaw. five cm. it would be--about like that--do you want me to mark that? mr. specter. put your initials right in the center of that circle. dr. shaw. i'll just put "wound of exit." mr. specter. fine--just put "wound of exit--actual size" and put your initials under it. (the witness, dr. shaw, complied with request of counsel specter.) mr. specter. let the record show that dr. shaw has marked "wound of exit--actual size" with his initials r.r.s. on the diagram . now, looking at diagram , dr. shaw, does the angle of declination on the figure correspond with the angle that the bullet passed through governor connally's chest? dr. shaw. it does. mr. specter. is there any feature of diagram which is useful in further elaborating that which you have commented about on diagram ? dr. shaw. no. again off the record? mr. specter. all right, off the record. (discussion between counsel specter and the witness, dr. shaw, off the record.) mr. specter. you have just commented off the record, dr. shaw, that the wound of entry is too large proportionately to the wound of exit, but aside from that, is there anything else on diagram which will be helpful to us? dr. shaw. no. mr. specter. is there anything else on diagram which would be helpful by way of elaborating that which appeared on diagram ? dr. shaw. no. mr. specter. now as to the treatment or operative procedure which you performed on governor connally, would you now describe what you did for him? dr. shaw. as soon as anesthesia had been established and an endotracheal tube was in place so that respiration could be controlled with positive pressure, the large occlusive dressing which had been applied in the emergency room was removed. this permitted better inspection of the wound of exit, air passed to and fro through the damaged chest wall, there was obvious softening of the bony framework of the chest wall as evidenced by exaggerated motion underneath the skin along the line of the trajectory of the missile. the skin of the chest wall axilla and back were thoroughly cleaned and aseptic solution was applied for further cleaning of the skin, the whole area was draped so as to permit access to both the wound of exit and the entrance wound. temporarily, the wound of entrance was covered with a sterile towel. first an elliptical incision was made to remove the ragged edges of the wound of exit. this incision was then extended laterally and upward in a curved direction so as to not have the incision through the skin and subcutaneous tissue directly over the line of the trajectory of the bullet where the chest had been softened. it was found that approximately cm. of the fifth rib had been shattered and the rib fragments acting as secondary missiles had been the major contributing factor to the damage to the anterior chest wall and to the underlying lung. mr. specter. what do you mean, doctor, by the words "fragments acting as secondary missiles"? dr. shaw. when bone is struck by a high velocity missile it fragments and acts much like bowling pins when they are struck by a bowling ball--they fly in all directions. mr. specter. will you continue now and further describe the treatment which you performed? dr. shaw. the bony fragments were removed along with all obviously damaged muscle. it was found that the fourth and fifth intercoastal muscle bundles were almost completely intact where the rib had been stripped out. there was damage to the latissimus dorsi muscle, but this was more in the way of laceration, so that the damage could be repaired by suture. the portion of parietal pleura which had not been torn by the injury was opened along the length of the resected portion of the fifth rib. the jagged ends of the fifth rib were cleaned with a rongeur; approximately cc. of clot and liquid blood was removed from the pleura cavity; inspection of the lung revealed that the middle lobe had a long tear which separated the lobe into approximately two equal segments. this tear extended up into the hilum of the lobe, but had not torn a major bronchus or a major blood vessel. the middle lobe was repaired with a running no. o chromic gut approximating the tissue of the depths of the lobe, with two sutures, and then approximating the visceral pleura on both the medial and lateral surface with a running suture of the same material--same gut. upon repair of the lobe it expanded well upon pressure on the anesthetic bag with very little in the way of peripheral leak. attention was next turned to the lower lobe. there was a large hematoma in the anterior basal segment of the right lower lobe extending on into the median basal segment. at one point there was a laceration in the surface of the lobe approximating a centimeter in length, undoubtedly caused by one of the penetrating rib fragments. a single mattress suture no. o chromic gut on an atromitac needle was used to close this laceration from which blood was oozing. next, the diaphragm and all parts of the right mediastinum was examined but no injury was found. the portion of the drainage tube which had already been placed in the second interspace in the anterior axillary line which protruded into the chest was cut away, since it was deemed to be longer than necessary. a second drainage tube was placed through a stab wound in the eighth interspace in the posterior axillary line and both of these tubes were connected to a water sealed bottle. the fourth and fifth intercoastal muscle bundles were then approximated with interrupted sutures of no. o chromic gut. the remaining portion of the serratus anterior muscle was then approximated across the closure of the intercostal muscles. the laceration at the latissimus dorsi muscle was then approximated with no. o chromic guts suture. before closing the skin and subcutaneous tissue a stab wound approximately cm. in length was made near the lower tip of the right scapula and a latex rubber drain was drawn up through this stab wound to drain subscapular space. this drain was marked with a safety pin. the subcutaneous tissue was then closed with interrupted sutures of no. o chromic gut, inverting the knots. the skin was closed with interrupted vertical mattress sutures of black silk. attention was next turned to the wound of entrance. the skin surrounding the wound was removed in an elliptical fashion, enlarging the incision to approximately cm. examination of the depths of this wound reveal that the latissimus dorsi muscle alone was injured, and the latex rubber drain could be felt immediately below the laceration in the muscle. a single mattress suture was used to close the laceration in the muscle. the skin was then closed with interrupted vertical mattress sutures of black silk. the drainage tubes going into the pleura cavity were then secured with safety pins and adhesive tape and a dressing applied to the entire incision. this concluded the operation for the wound of the chest, and at this point dr. gregory and dr. shires entered the operating room to care for the wounds of the right wrist and left thigh. mr. specter. what did you observe, dr. shaw, as to the wound of the right wrist? dr. shaw. well, i would have to say that my observations are probably not accurate. i knew that the wound of the wrist had fractured the lower end of the right radius and i saw one large wound on the--i guess you would call it the volar surface of the right arm and a small wound on the dorsum of the right wrist. mr. specter. which appeared to you to be the point of entrance, dr. shaw? dr. shaw. to me, i felt that the wound of entrance was the wound on the volar surface or the anterior surface with the hand held in the upright or the supine position, with the wound of exit being the small wound on the dorsum. mr. specter. what were the characteristics of those wounds which led you to that conclusion? dr. shaw. although the wound of entrance, i mean, although the wound that i felt was a wound of entrance was the larger of the two, it was my feeling that considering the large wound of exit from the chest, that this was consistent with the wound that i saw on the wrist. may we go off the record? mr. specter. sure. (discussion between counsel specter and the witness dr. shaw off the record.) mr. specter. now, let's go back on the record. dr. shaw. i'll start by saying that my examination of the wrist was a cursory one because i realized that dr. gregory was going to have the responsibility of doing what was necessary surgically for this wrist. mr. specter. had you conferred with him preliminarily to starting your operation on the chest so that you knew he would be standing by, i believe as you testified earlier, to perform the wrist operation? dr. shaw. yes--dr. gregory was in the hallway of the operating room before i went in to operate on governor connally and while i was scrubbing preparatory to the operation, i told him that there was a compound comminuted fracture of the radius of the governor's right hand that would need his attention. mr. specter. let the record show that while we were off the record here a moment ago, dr. shaw, you and i were discussing the possible angles at which the governor might have been sitting in relation to a trajectory of a bullet consistent with the observations which you recollect and consistent with what seems to have been a natural position for the governor to have maintained, in the light of your view of the situation. and with that in mind, let me resume the questioning and put on the record very much of the comments and observations you were making as you and i were discussing off the record as this deposition has proceeded. now, you have described a larger wound on the volar or palm side of the wrist than was present on the dorsal or back side of the wrist, and you have expressed the opinion that it was the point of entry on the volar side of the wrist as opposed to a point of exit on the back side of the wrist, even though as you earlier said, ordinarily the point of entry is smaller and the point of exit is larger. now, will you repeat for the record, dr. shaw, the thinking--your thinking which might explain a larger point of entry and a smaller point of exit on the wrist. dr. shaw. yes. as a matter of fact, when i first examined governor connally's wrist, i did not notice the small wound on the dorsum of the wrist and only saw the much larger wound on the radial side of the volar surface of the wrist. i didn't know about the second small wound until i came in when dr. gregory was concluding his operation on the wrist. he informed me that there was another small wound through the skin through which a missile had obviously passed. mr. specter. now, which wound was that, dr. shaw? dr. shaw. this was the wound on the dorsum or the dorsal surface of the wrist. mr. specter. did you then observe that wound? dr. shaw. yes; i saw this wound. mr. specter. and where was that wound located to the best of your recollection? dr. shaw. this wound was slightly more distal on the arm than the larger wound and located almost in the midportion of the dorsum of the wrist. mr. specter. would that correspond with this location which i read from dr. gregory's report on the dorsal aspect of the right wrist over the junction of the distal fourth of the radius and shaft approximately cm. in length. dr. shaw. the wound was approximately cm. in length? mr. specter. yes; would that correspond with the wound which you observed? dr. shaw. yes; i saw it at the time that he was closing it and that would correspond with the wound i observed. mr. specter. he has described that as what he concluded to be the wound of entry on the dorsal aspect of the right wrist, but your thought was that perhaps that was the wound of exit? dr. shaw. yes; in trying to reconstruct the position of governor connally's body, sitting in the jump seat of the limousine, and the attitude that he would assume in turning to the right--this motion would naturally bring the volar surface of the right wrist in contact with the anterior portion of the right chest. mr. specter. well, is your principal reason for thinking that the wound on the dorsal aspect is a wound of exit rather than a wound of entry because of what you consider to be the awkward position in having the dorsal aspect of the wrist either pointing upward or toward the chest? dr. shaw. yes, i think i am influenced a great deal by the fact that in trying to assume this position, i can't comfortably turn my arm into a position that would explain the wound of the dorsal surface of the wrist as a wound of entrance, knowing where the missile came out of the chest and assuming that one missile caused both the chest wound and the arm wound. mr. specter. might not then that conclusion be affected if you discard the assumption that one missile caused all the wounds? dr. shaw. yes, if two missiles struck the governor, then it would not be necessary to assume that the larger wound is the wound of entrance. mr. specter. now, would not another explanation for the presence of a wound on the dorsal aspect of the wrist be if the governor were sitting in an upright position on the jump seat with his arm resting either on an arm rest inside the car or on a window of the car with the elbow protruding outward, and as he turned around, turning in a rotary motion, his wrist somewhat toward his body so that it was present in an angle of approximately degrees to his body, being slightly moving toward his body. dr. shaw. well, i myself, am not able to get my arm into that position. if the wound, as i assume to be in the midportion of the forearm here and the wound of exit would be here (illustrating) i can't get my arm into that position as to correspond to what we know about the trajectory of the bullet into the chest. mr. specter. assuming that the bullet through the chest then also went through the wrist? dr. shaw. yes. mr. specter. now, aside from the trajectory and the explanation of one bullet causing all the damage and focusing just on the nature of the wound on the wrist, what conclusion would you reach as to which was the point of entrance and which was the point of exit? dr. shaw. i would feel that the wound on the volar surface of the wrist was the wound of entrance and that perhaps the bullet being partially spent by its passage through the chest wall, struck the radius, fragmenting it, but didn't pass through the wrist, and perhaps tumbled out into the clothing of governor connally with only a small fragment of this bullet passing on through the wrist to go out into the left thigh. mr. specter. now, would that be consistent with a fragment passing through the wrist which was so small that virtually the entire missile, or grains of it, would remain in the central missile? dr. shaw. yes. the wound on the volar surface, i'm sorry, on the dorsum of the wrist and the wound in the thigh which was obviously a wound of entrance, since the fragment is still within the thigh, were not too dissimilar in size. mr. specter. was the wound in the thigh itself, that is, aside from the size of the fragment which remains in the leg, as small as the hole on the dorsal aspect of the wrist? dr. shaw. my memory is that the wound in the thigh through the skin was about the same as the mound on the skin of the dorsum of the wrist, but i didn't make an accurate observation at the time. mr. specter. would your thinking on that be affected any if i informed you that dr. shires was of the view and had the recollection that the wound on the thigh was much larger than a hole accounted for by the size of fragments which remained in the femur. dr. shaw. of course, dr. shires actually treated and closed this wound, but since this wound was made through the skin in a tangential manner---- mr. specter. now, you are referring to the wound of the thigh? dr. shaw. i am referring to the wound of the thigh--was made in a tangential manner, it did not go in at a direct right angle, the slit in the skin in the thigh could be considerably longer than the actual size of the missile itself, because this is a sharp fragment that would make a cutting--it would cause a laceration rather than a puncture wound. mr. specter. so, the hole in the thigh would be consistent with a very small fragment in the femur? dr. shaw. yes. mr. specter. now, a moment ago i asked you what would be your opinion as to the point of entry and the point of exit based solely on the appearances of the holes on the dorsal and volar aspects of the wrist, and you responded that you still thought, or that you did think that the volar aspect was the point of entry with the additional thought that the missile might not have gone through the wrist, but only a fraction having gone through the wrist--now, my question is in giving that answer, did you consider at that time the hypothesis that the wound on the wrist was caused by the same missile which went through the governor's chest, or was that answer solely in response to the characteristics of the wound on the wrist alone? dr. shaw. i have always felt that the wounds of governor connally could be explained by the passage of one missile through his chest, striking his wrist and a fragment of it going on into his left thigh. i had never entertained the idea that he had been struck by a second missile. mr. specter. well, focusing for just a minute on the limited question of the physical characteristics of the wounds on the wrist, if you had that and nothing more in this case to go on, what would your opinion be as to which point was entry and which point was exit? dr. shaw. ordinarily, we usually find the wound of entrance is smaller than the wound of exit. in the governor's wound on the wrist, however, if the wound on the dorsum of the wrist is the wound of entrance, and this large missile passed directly through his radius, i'm not clear as to why there was not a larger wound of exit than there was. mr. specter. you mean on the volar aspect? dr. shaw. yes; if a whole bullet hit here---- mr. specter. indicating the dorsal aspect? dr. shaw. yes; and came out through here, why it didn't carry more bone out through the wrist than it did, and the bone was left in the wrist--the bone did not come out. in other words, when it struck the fifth rib it made a hole this big around (indicating) in the chest in carrying bone fragments out through the chest wall. mr. specter. wouldn't that same question arise if it went through the volar aspect and exited through the dorsal aspect? dr. shaw. it wouldn't if you postulated that the bullet did not pass through the wrist, but struck the wrist. mr. specter. that would be present in either event, though, if you postulated if the bullet struck the dorsal aspect of the wrist, and did not pass through, but only a missile passed through the volar aspect. dr. shaw. yes; in that case, however, considering the wound of exit from the chest, and if that same bullet went on through the wrist, i would still expect a pretty good wound of entrance. mr. specter. you see, i am trying now, dr. shaw, to disassociate the thought that this is the same missile, so that i'm trying to look at it just from the physical characteristics of the appearance of the wounds on the two sides of the wrist. dr. shaw. may we go off the record just a minute? mr. specter. sure--off the record. (discussion between counsel specter and the witness, dr. shaw, off the record.) mr. specter. let us go back on the record and let the record reflect that we have been discussing another aspect concerning dr. shaw's thought that if the main missile had gone through the entire radius, that there would have been more damage, presumably, to the arteries and tendons on the underside of the wrist, and i then called dr. shaw's attention to one additional factor in dr. gregory's testimony which is reflected in his report that "on the radial side of the arm, small fine bits of cloth consistent with fine bits of mohair were found," which was one of the reasons for dr. gregory's thinking that the path was from the dorsal aspect to the volar aspect. dr. shaw. yes. mr. specter. and dr. shaw's reply, if this is correct, doctor, that you would know of no readily available explanation for that factor in the situation? dr. shaw. except that it might have been carried by the small fragment which obviously passed through the wrist and attached to that. mr. specter. but could the fragment have carried it from the radial side on it if it had been traveling from the volar side to the radial side? dr. shaw. yes; it could have carried it through and deposited it on the way through. mr. specter. i see, so it might have started on the volar aspect and could have gone on through. dr. shaw. you know, if we could get that suit of his, it would help a lot. mr. specter. well, we are going to examine clothing if at all possible. dr. shaw. because, i think it would have been almost impossible--i think if you examine the clothing and if you had a hole here in his coat and no hole on this side---- mr. specter. indicating a hole on the femur side---- dr. shaw. that would almost clear that thing up. mr. specter. yes; it would be very informational in our analysis of the situation. dr. shaw. i doubt if there is a hole in both sides of the sleeve--the sleeve wouldn't be quite that long, i don't think. mr. specter. dr. shaw, my next question involves whether you have ever had a conversation with governor connally about the sequence of events of the day he was shot? dr. shaw. yes, we have talked on more than one occasion about this. the governor admits that certain aspects of the whole incident are a bit hazy. he remembers hearing a shot. he recognized it as a rifle shot and turned to the right to see whether president kennedy had been injured. he recognized that the president had been injured, but almost immediately, he stated, that he felt a severe shock to his right chest. he immediately experienced some difficulty in breathing, and as he stated to me, he thought that he had received a mortal wound. mr. specter. did he tell you why he thought the wound was mortal? dr. shaw. he just knew that he was badly hit, as he expressed it. mr. specter. did he comment on whether or not he heard a second shot before he felt this wound in his chest? dr. shaw. he says that he did not hear a second shot, but did hear--no, wait a minute, i shouldn't say that. he heard only two shots so that he doesn't know which shot other than the first one he did not hear. he only remembers hearing two shots, his wife says distinctly she heard three. mr. specter. mrs. connally said she heard three? dr. shaw. mrs. connally distinctly remembered three shots. mr. specter. and, governor connally said he heard two shots? dr. shaw. two shots. mr. specter. would that not be consistent with a situation where he was hit by the second shot and lost consciousness? dr. shaw. yes; the shock of the wounding might have prevented him from hearing the rifle report. mr. specter. would you have expected him to hear a third shot after he was wounded by a second shot? dr. shaw. he didn't lose consciousness at that time, although he said he did lose consciousness during a part of the trip from the point of wounding to the hospital. mr. specter. did governor connally tell you whether or not he heard president kennedy say anything? dr. shaw. he said that all he heard was the president say, "oh," that's the only thing he told me. mr. specter. did mrs. connally state whether or not she heard the president say anything? dr. shaw. my memory isn't good for that. i don't remember what mrs. connally told me on that. mr. specter. are you continuing to treat governor connally at the present time? dr. shaw. yes, although the treatment of the chest is practically at an end, because the chest has reached a satisfactory state of healing. mr. specter. did you continue to treat the governor all during his stay at parkland hospital? dr. shaw. yes, i attended him several times daily. mr. specter. dr. shaw, would you think it consistent with the facts that you know as to governor connally's wounds that he could have been struck by the same bullet which passed through president kennedy, assuming that a missile with the muzzle velocity of , feet per second, a . -millimeter bullet, passed through president kennedy at a distance of to feet from the rifle, passing through president kennedy's body, entering on his back and striking only soft tissue and exiting on his neck; could that missile have also gone through governor connally's chest in your opinion? dr. shaw. yes, taking your description of the first wound sustained by the president, which i, myself, did not observe, and considering the position of the two men in the limousine, i think it would be perfectly possible for the first bullet to have passed through the soft tissues of the neck of president kennedy and produced the wounds that we found on governor connally. mr. specter. could that bullet then have produced all the wounds that you found on governor connally? dr. shaw. yes, i would still be postulating that governor connally was struck by one missile. mr. specter. now, as you sit here at the moment on your postulation that governor connally was struck by one missile, is that in a way which is depicted by diagram no. on the exhibit heretofore marked as "dr. gregory's exhibit no. ?" dr. shaw. yes; i feel that the line of trajectory as marked on this diagram is accurate as it could be placed from my memory of this wound. mr. specter. and, on that trajectory, how do you postulate the bullet then passed through the wrist from dorsal to volar or from volar to dorsal? dr. shaw. my postulation would be from volar to dorsal. mr. specter. now, then, going back to diagram no. , dr. shaw, there is one factor that we did not call your attention to or have you testify about, and that is--the marking that the exit is on the volar side and the entry is on the dorsal side as it was remarked by dr. gregory, that would then be inconsistent of your view of the situation, would it not? dr. shaw. yes, it would be. mr. specter. and similarly on diagram no. , where the exit is marked on the volar, and the entry is marked on the dorsal, that would also be inconsistent with your view of the situation? dr. shaw. yes--he has the wound on the back being quite a bit larger than the wound on the front here, doesn't he? mr. specter. yes, the wound as it appears here on the diagram is larger. dr. shaw. that wasn't my memory. mr. specter. but i don't think that that is necessarily as to scale in this situation. would it be possible from your knowledge of the facts here, dr. shaw, that president kennedy might have been struck by the bullet passing through him, hitting nothing but soft tissues, and that bullet could have passed through governor connally's chest and a second bullet might have struck governor connally's wrist? dr. shaw. yes; this is a perfectly tenable theory. mr. specter. and, then, the damage to governor connally's thigh might have come from either of the bullets which passed through the chest or a second bullet which struck the wrist? dr. shaw. that is true--as far as the wounds are concerned, this theory, i feel, is tenable. it doesn't conform to the description of the sequence of the events as described by mrs. connally. mr. specter. in what respect dr. shaw? dr. shaw. well she feels that the governor was only struck by one bullet. mr. specter. why does she feel that way; do you know, sir? dr. shaw. as soon as he was struck she pushed him to the bottom of the car and got on top of him and it would mean that there would be a period of--well if there were - / seconds between the three shots, there would be a couple seconds there that would have given her time to get him down into the car, and as she describes the sequence, it is hard to see how he could have been struck by a second bullet. mr. specter. if she pushed him down immediately after he was shot on the first occasion? dr. shaw. yes. mr. specter. but if her reaction was not that fast so that he was struck twice, of course then there would be a different situation, depending entirely on how fast she reacted. dr. shaw. i think if he had been struck first in the wrist and not struck in the chest, he would have known that. he only remembers the hard blow to the back of his chest and doesn't remember being struck in the wrist at all. mr. specter. might he not have been struck in the chest first and struck by a subsequent shot in the wrist? dr. shaw. yes; but that's hard to postulate if he was down in the bottom of the car. mr. specter. dr. shaw, have you been interviewed by any representatives of the federal government prior to today? dr. shaw. yes. mr. specter. and who talked to you about this case? dr. shaw. i don't have his name. i perhaps could find it. it was a member of the secret service. mr. specter. on how many occasions were you talked to by a secret service man? dr. shaw. once. mr. specter. and what did you tell him? dr. shaw. i told him approximately the same that has been told in this transcript. mr. specter. and prior to the time we started to go on the record with the court reporter taking this down verbatim, did you and i have a discussion about the purpose of the deposition and the questions that i would ask you? dr. shaw. yes. mr. specter. and were the answers which you provided me at that time the same as those which you have testified to on the record here this afternoon? dr. shaw. yes. mr. specter. do you have any other written record of the operation on governor connally other than that which has been identified here in commission exhibit no. ? dr. shaw. no; this is a copy of the operative record that went on to the chart of governor connally which is in the possession of the record room of parkland hospital. mr. specter. do you have anything else which you could tell us which you think might be helpful to the commission in any way, dr. shaw? dr. shaw. no; i believe that we have covered all of the points that are germane to this incident. anything else that i would have would actually be hearsay. mr. specter. thank you very much, sir, for appearing. dr. shaw. all right, you are welcome. mr. specter. off the record. (discussion between counsel specter and the witness, dr. shaw, off the record.) mr. specter. dr. shaw, permit me to ask you one or two more questions. did you find any bullets in governor connally's body? dr. shaw. no. mr. specter. did you find any fragments of bullets in his chest? dr. shaw. no; only fragments of shattered rib. mr. specter. and did you find, or do you know whether any fragment was found in his wrist or the quantity of fragments in his wrist? dr. shaw. it is my understanding that only foreign material from the suit of governor connally was found in the wrist, although in the x-ray of the wrist there appeared to be some minute metallic fragments in the wrist. mr. specter. as to the wound on the back of governor connally, was there any indication that the bullet was tumbling prior to the time it struck him? dr. shaw. i would only have to say that i'm not a ballistics expert, but the wound on his chest was not a single puncture wound, it was long enough so that there might have been some tumbling. mr. specter. you mean the wound on his back? dr. shaw. the wound on his back--yes, it was long enough so that there might have been some tumbling. in other words, it was not a spherical puncture wound. mr. specter. so it might have had some tumbling involved, or it might not have? dr. shaw. yes; i don't know whether the clothes would have occasioned this or not. mr. specter. my question would be that perhaps some tumbling might have been involved as a result of decrease in velocity as the bullet passed through president kennedy, whether there was any indication from the surface of the wound which would indicate tumbling. dr. shaw. the wound entrance was an elliptical wound. in other words, it had a long diameter and a short diameter. it didn't have the appearance of a wound caused by a high velocity bullet that had not struck anything else; in other words, a puncture wound. now, you have to also take into consideration, however, whether the bullet enters at a right angle or at a tangent. if it enters at a tangent there will be some length to the wound of entrance. mr. specter. so, would you say in net that there could have been some tumbling occasioned by having it pass through another body or perhaps the oblique character of entry might have been occasioned by the angle of entry. dr. shaw. yes; either would have explained a wound of entry. mr. specter. fine, thank you very much, doctor. dr. shaw. thank you. testimony of dr. charles francis gregory the testimony of dr. charles francis gregory was taken at : p.m., on march , , at parkland memorial hospital, dallas, tex., by mr. arlen specter, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. specter. may the record show that at the start of this session that i have here at the moment dr. charles gregory, who has appeared here in response to a letter of request from the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy. may i say to you, dr. gregory, that the purpose of the commission is to investigate all facets relating to the assassination, including the wounding of president kennedy, and the wounding of governor connally, and we have asked you to appear here for the purpose of testifying concerning your treatment of governor connally. our rules specify that we make a brief statement of the purpose of the commission, and the purpose of our calling on you. now, will you stand up and raise your right hand? do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before the president's commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? dr. gregory. i do. mr. specter. will you state your full name for the record, please? dr. gregory. dr. charles francis gregory. mr. specter. and what is your profession, sir? dr. gregory. i am a physician and surgeon. mr. specter. will you outline your educational background, please? dr. gregory. yes; i received a bachelor of science degree from indiana university in , and a doctor of medicine in . i have completed years of post-graduate training in orthopedic surgery at the indiana university medical center in . i remained there excepting for an interlude with the u.s. navy in and , until . in i assumed my present position, which is that of professor of orthopedic surgery and chairman of the division of orthopedic surgery at the southwestern medical school, university of texas. mr. specter. dr. gregory, are you certified by the american board? dr. gregory. i am certified by the american board of orthopedic surgery; yes, sir. mr. specter. and what year were you so certified? dr. gregory. in . i am now a member of the american board of orthopedic surgery, as a matter of fact. mr. specter. dr. gregory, what experience, if any, have you had in the treatment of gunshot wounds? dr. gregory. my experience with the treatment of gunshot wounds began with my training in orthopedic surgery, but its greatest impetus occurred in and in the korean theatre of operations with the u.s. navy. since that time here at the parkland hospital in dallas our service has attended a considerable number of such injuries, plus my experience is continuing. mr. specter. could you approximate the total number of gunshot wounds you have had experience with? dr. gregory. i have had personal experience with, i suppose, in approximately such missile wounds. mr. specter. dr. gregory, back on november , , did you have occasion to treat governor connally? dr. gregory. i did. mr. specter. will you relate briefly the circumstances surrounding your call to treat the governor? dr. gregory. i had been seeing patients in the health service at the medical school building on the morning of november and was there when word was received that the president had been shot. i did not then know that the governor had also been injured. i came to the emergency room of parkland hospital and upon gaining entrance to it, inquired as to whether or not mr. kennedy's wounds were of a nature that would require my assistance. i was advised that they were not. i then took a number of persons from the emergency room area with me away from it in order to reduce the confusion, and i went to the orthopedic ward on the fifth floor west of parkland hospital. after attending some of the patients on that ward, i was preparing to leave the hospital and went by the operating room area to see whether or not i could be of any other assistance, and was apprised then that a page was out for me. at that time dr. shaw advised me that governor connally had been wounded and that among his wounds were those to the right forearm and the left thigh. he had asked that i stay and attend those wounds after he had completed care of the governor's chest wound. mr. specter. at approximately what time did you have that conversation with dr. shaw? dr. gregory. to the best of my knowledge, that conversation must have been about between and : in the afternoon of november . mr. specter. and that conversation was with dr. shaw? dr. gregory. dr. robert shaw. mr. specter. now, what part did dr. robert shaw have in the treatment of governor connally in a general way? dr. gregory. well, dr. robert shaw attended the most serious wound that the governor sustained, which was one to his right chest, and it was his operation which took precedence over all others. mr. specter. and, was that operation completed before your operation commenced? dr. gregory. yes; dr. shaw's operation had been completed before we even arranged the governor's right arm and left thigh for definitive care. mr. specter. at approximately what time did your operation of governor connally begin? dr. gregory. my operation on governor connally began about o'clock p.m. on friday, november . mr. specter. and approximately how long did it last? dr. gregory. the better part of an hour--i should judge-- to minutes. mr. specter. who, if anyone, assisted you in that operation? dr. gregory. i was assisted by the junior orthopedic resident, dr. william osborne, and the orthopedic intern, dr. john parker. mr. specter. what was governor connally's condition when you first saw him with respect to his chest wounds, first, if you will, please tell us? dr. gregory. i did not see governor connally myself until he had been taken into the operating room and had had an endotracheal tube placed in his larynx and had been anesthetized. having accomplished this, the very precarious mechanics of respiration had been corrected and his general status at that time was quite satisfactory. mr. specter. what observations did you have with respect to his wound in the chest? dr. gregory. i had none, really, for the business of prepping and draping was underway at that time, and i did not intrude other than to observe very casually, and i don't remember any details of it. now, i did see in the course of the operation the wound in his chest, the wound of entry, and its posterior surface and the wound of exit on the anterior surface. mr. specter. what did the wound of entry look like, doctor? dr. gregory. it appeared to me that the wound of entry was sort of a linear wound, perhaps three-quarters of an inch in length with a rounded central portion. whereas, the wound of exit was rather larger than this, perhaps an inch and a half across. mr. specter. and at approximately what part of the body was the wound that you described as the wound of entry? dr. gregory. in view of the drapes that were on the governor at the time, i will have to speculate, but as i recall best, it was in an area probably inches below and medial to the right nipple. mr. specter. is that the wound of entry or exit? dr. gregory. that's the wound of exit. mr. specter. how about the wound of entry? dr. gregory. the wound of entry was too obscure for me to identify, since it was just in general over the posterior aspect of his chest. mr. specter. what did you observe with respect to the wound of his wrist? dr. gregory. i didn't see the wound of his wrist until after the chest operation had been completed, because his arm was covered by the operation drapes, the surgical drapes for the chest procedure. mr. specter. and when you did have an opportunity to observe the wound of the wrist, what did you then see? dr. gregory. i observed the wound on the dorsal aspect of his wrist, which was about cm. in length, ragged, somewhat irregular, and lay about an inch and a half or inches above the wrist joint. it was a little to the radial side of the wrist area. there was a second wound in the wrist on the volar surface, about a centimeter and a half proximal to the distal flexion crease and this wound was a transverse laceration no more than a centimeter in length and did not gape. mr. specter. when you say on the dorsal aspect, what is that? dr. gregory. in lay terms, that's equivalent to the back of the hand. mr. specter. and the volar is equivalent to what? dr. gregory. the palm surface of the hand. mr. specter. what conclusion, if any, did you reach as to which was the wound of entry and exit on the wrist? dr. gregory. based on certain findings in the wound at the time the debridement was carried out---- mr. specter. will you define debridement before you proceed with that? dr. gregory. yes; debridement is a surgical term used to designate that procedure in attending a wound which removes by sharp excision all nonvital tissue in the area together with any identifiable foreign objects. in attending this wound, it was evident early that clot had been carried into the wound from the dorsal surface to the bone and into the fracture. this would imply that an irregular missile had passed through the wrist from the dorsal to the volar aspect. mr. specter. now, were there any characteristics in the volar aspect which would indicate that it was a wound of exit? dr. gregory. no; there were none, really. it was my assumption that the missile had expended much of its remaining energy in passing through the radius bone, which it did before it could emerge through the soft tissues. mr. specter. did you observe any foreign objects identifiable as bits of fragments or portions of a bullet missile? dr. gregory. a preliminary x-ray had indicated that there were metallic fragments or at least metallic fragments which cast metallic shadows in the soft tissues around the wounded forearm. two or three of these were identified and were recovered and were observed to be metallic in consistency. these were turned over to appropriate authorities for further disposition. mr. specter. approximately how large were those fragments, dr. gregory? dr. gregory. i would judge that they were first--flat, rather thin, and that their greatest dimension would probably not exceed one-eighth of an inch. they were very small. mr. specter. would you have sufficient experience with gunshot wounds to comment as to whether a . -mm. bullet could have passed through the governor's wrist in the way you have described, leaving the fragments which you have described and still have virtually all the bullet missile intact, or having grains of a bullet at that time? dr. gregory. well, i am not an expert on ballistics, but one cannot escape certain ballistic implications in this business. i would say, first of all, that how much of the missile remains intact as a mass depends to some extent on how hard the metal is. obviously, if it is very soft, as lead, it may lose more fragments and therefore more weight and volume than it might if it is made of a harder material or is jacketed in some way. now, the energy in the missile is a product, not so much of its mass as it is of its velocity, for by doubling the velocity, you can increase the kinetic energy in the force it transmits, fourfold, since the formula for determining energy in these cases is a matter of mass times velocity squared, rather than just linear functional velocity. so, some knowledge of how much of the cartridge force might have been behind the missile would be useful here too. mr. specter. for the purpose of this consideration, i am interested to know the the metal which you found in the wrist was of sufficient size so that the bullet which passed through the wrist could not have emerged virtually completely intact or with grains intact, or whether the portions of the metallic fragments were so small that that would be consistent with having virtually the entire . -mm. bullet emerge. dr. gregory. well, considering the small volume of metal as seen by x-ray, and the very small dimensions of the metal which was recovered, i think several such fragments could have been flaked off of a total missile mass without reducing its volume greatly. now, just how much, depends of course upon what the original missile weighed. in other words, on the basis of the metal left behind in governor connally's body, as far as i could tell, the missile that struck it could be virtually intact, insofar as mass was concerned, but probably was distorted. mr. specter. would you have any idea at all as to what the fragments which you observed in the governor's wrist might weigh, doctor? dr. gregory. no, not really, but it would have been very small--very small. mr. specter. what treatment or action did you take with respect to treating the governor's wrist for him, dr. gregory? dr. gregory. upon completing the debridement, we were then faced with a decision as to whether we should suture his wound in the conventional manner or not, and we chose not to, leaving the wound open in deference to potential infection that might be produced by retained fragments of clothing. having decided upon that course of action, the fractured radius bone was then manipulated into a reduced position and the entire limb was encased in a plaster-paris cast. mr. specter. did that complete your operative procedure? dr. gregory. that completed my operative procedure for that day for governor connally--yes. mr. specter. what other wounds, if any, did you notice on the governor at that time? dr. gregory. in addition to the chest wound and the wound just described in his right forearm there was a wound in the medical aspect of his left thigh. this was almost round and did not seem to have disturbed the tissues badly, but did definitely penetrate and pass through the skin and to the fascia beneath. i could not tell from the superficial inspection whether it had passed through the fascia. an x-ray was made of his thigh at that time and there was not present in his thigh any missile of sufficient magnitude, in my opinion, to have produced the wound observed on his medial aspect. repeat x-rays failed to reveal any such missile and an additional examination failed to reveal any wound of exit. mr. specter. what did the x-rays reveal with respect to the presence of a missile? dr. gregory. in the thigh there was a very small shadow, perhaps mm. by mm. in dimension, lying close to the medial aspect of the femur, that is, the thigh bone, but was in my opinion much too small to have accounted for the dimensions of the wound on the medial aspect of his thigh or a wound of that character. mr. specter. what were the dimensions of the wound on the medial aspect of his thigh. dr. gregory. i would say that that wound was about a centimeter in diameter, much larger than the identifiable fragment of metal in the thigh. i might add that this prompted some speculation on our part, my part, which was voiced to someone that some search ought to be made in the governor's clothing or perhaps in the auto or some place, wherever he may have been, for the missile which had produced this much damage but which was not resident in him. mr. specter. approximately what type of a missile would it have taken to produce a wound which you have described on his thigh? dr. gregory. well, it would take a fragment of metal of approximately the same diameter--a centimeter, and in general--round. mr. specter. would that correspond with the measurement of a . -mm. missile? dr. gregory. i will have to guess--i don't know what dimension--of a . -mm.--yes, a . -mm. would be . cm., approximately, yes, that could have very well have occurred from such a missile, yes, sir. mr. specter. dr. gregory. i now show you two typewritten pages which are a portion of a document identified as commission exhibit no. , which in its total aspect constitutes all of the medical records from parkland hospital on president kennedy and governor connally and the two pages to which i direct your attention relate an operation on governor connally, where you are listed as the surgeon, and i ask you if you will take a minute and look those over and tell us whether or not that is your report on the operation which you have just been describing. dr. gregory. (examining instrument referred to.) yes, this appears to be the essence of the report which i dictated at the conclusion of my operation on governor connally. mr. specter. and are the facts contained in this report the same as those to which you have testified here today? dr. gregory. i think they are--i hope so. mr. specter. now, will you describe in a general way what treatment you have given governor connally following the time when you completed this report on november , ? dr. gregory. the governor remained in parkland hospital for some weeks after his admission. on the th day after the operation, in the governor's hospital room, the wound on the dorsal surface of his wrist was closed by wire sutures and this was carried out in the room. on the th day, i believe it was, the th day from injury, the governor was taken back to the operating room and there under a light general anesthesia, his wounds were dressed and inspected, and a new plaster of paris cast was applied at that time. the governor was then permitted up and about with his arm in a sling, and shortly thereafter returned to the governor's mansion in austin. i visited governor connally in the governor's mansion in austin about week after his discharge from the hospital, simply for check-up examination and i found things to be in a satisfactory state. i saw the governor again about month after his discharge, in the office of dr. robert a. dennison in austin, tex., and another examination this time, including an x-ray, was made, and again the condition of his right forearm and of the fractured bone were considered to be satisfactory. now, i've got to think of the next date--off of the record or on as you wish-- mr. specter. all right, we will go off of the record, doctor, while you are thinking that through. dr. gregory. all right. (discussion between counsel specter and the witness gregory off the record.) mr. specter. all right, dr. gregory. dr. gregory. i'll say on or about february , the governor came to dallas and on that occasion we removed his cast, obtained an x-ray, found his fracture to be healing satisfactorily, and so we applied a new cast. the governor wore that cast until week ago, when he again came to dallas. the cast was removed, and x-ray revealed satisfactory healing of his fracture, and the cast, as a continuous form of treatment, was discontinued. at the present time the governor is on a regiment of exercises, and he wears a demountable splint, whenever it looks as though the electorate may be over enthusiastic by shaking his hand. mr. specter. do you anticipate any future cast for governor connally? dr. gregory. i anticipate probably an uneventful, though slow, recovery of normal function in his right arm and wrist and hand. i think he will have some permanent impairment, but i think he will have a very minimal amount of disability, and i do not at this time anticipate any need for any further surgical intervention. that will have to become manifest by the appearance of some other as yet unanticipated symptom. i would like to add that on each of the examination interviews here in dallas, the governor was also checked over by dr. robert shaw, from the point of view of recovery from his chest wound. mr. specter. dr. gregory, i now show you a series of diagrams which are a part of reports bearing commission no. and may the record show these differ from commission exhibit numbers, reflecting the number assigned to reports. i am going to ask the court reporter to mark this particular copy as dr. gregory's exhibit no. . (instrument marked by the reporter as dr. gregory's exhibit no. , for identification.) mr. specter. i am going to ask you, pointing first to diagram no. , whether or not this accurately depicts the wounds of governor connally? dr. gregory. this one does not. mr. specter. in what respect? dr. gregory. in the respect that the wound of entry is shown to exist on the volar surface of the forearm, whereas, it was on the dorsal surface of the forearm in my view--in my opinion--and the reverse holds for the wound of exit. mr. specter. will you take my pen and correct those as they should be, doctor gregory? dr. gregory. (complied with request of counsel specter.) mr. specter. now, turning to exhibit, diagram no. on this exhibit, and calling your attention specifically to the point of entry and the point of exit on the diagram of a man standing, does that correspond with the angle of declination on governor connally's wound? dr. gregory. to the best of my knowledge, this would fairly accurately depict that angle. if i were to have any reservation at all, it would be with reference to the height or the position of the wounds of entry, as being marked a little high, but this is recalling from memory, and it may not be correct. mr. specter. i now call your attention to diagram no. on this sequence and ask if this accurately depicts the condition of the governor's wounds? dr. gregory. i think that this one comes more closely into line with their actual location, especially with reference to the wound of entry in the posterior aspect of the chest. it is a little lower here, as i recall it to be. those of the wrist, i think are accurately depicted, and that of the thigh are believed to be accurately depicted. mr. specter. and on these wrist wounds, do they show the point of entry to be on the dorsal aspect and the point of exit to be on the volar aspect? dr. gregory. according to the anatomical position, i believe that they do; yes. mr. specter. now, looking at diagram no. , does this again correspond with your recollection of the angle of decline on governor connally? dr. gregory. again, if i have a reservation it would be to the wound of entry and the posterior aspect as being shown a little higher than it actually existed. mr. specter. now, dr. gregory, i turn to diagram no. , which depicts a seated man and what does diagram no. depict to your eye with respect to what action is described on the seated man? dr. gregory. well, i should say that this composite has alined the several parts of the body demonstrated in such a way that a single missile following a constant trajectory could have accounted for all of the wounds which are shown. moreover, this is consistent with the point of entry which is depicted on the side views showing the angle of declination. i submit that the angle of declination in passing through the chest could be very simply altered by having an individual lean forward a few degrees, and similarly could be made much deeper by having him lean backward, without really changing the basic relationship between the parts, nor in any way affecting the likelihood that all parts could have come into this same trajectory. mr. specter. would you consider it possible, in your professional opinion, for the same bullet to have inflicted all of the wounds which you have described on governor connally? dr. gregory. yes; i believe it very possible, for a number of reasons. one of these--is the apparent loss of energy manifested at each of the various body surfaces, which i transected, the greatest energy being at the point of entry on the posterior aspect of the chest and of the fifth rib, where considerable destruction was done and the least destruction having been done in the medial aspect of the thigh where the bullet apparently expended itself. mr. specter. what destruction was done on the fifth rib, dr. gregory? dr. gregory. it is my understanding from conversations with dr. shaw, and i believe his medical reports bear this out, that the fifth rib was literally shattered by the missile. we know that high velocity bullets striking bone have a strong tendency to shatter bones and the degree to which the fifth rib was shattered was considerably in excess of the amount of shattering which occurred in the radius--the forearm. mr. specter. and what conclusion, if any, did you draw as to the velocity of the missile, as to the time it struck each of those bony portions? dr. gregory. i think that the missile was continually losing velocity with each set of tissues which it encountered and transected, and the amount of damage done is progressively less from first entrance in the thorax to the last entrance in the thigh. mr. specter. do you think it possible that governor connally was shot by two bullets, with one hitting in the posterior part of his body and the second one striking the back side of his wrist? dr. gregory. the possibility exists, but i would discount it for these reasons--ordinarily, a missile in flight--i'll qualify that--a high velocity missile in flight does not tend to carry organic material into the wound which it creates. i believe if you will inspect the record which was prepared by dr. shaw, there is no indication that any clothing or other organic material was found in the chest wound. an irregular missile can carry debris into a wound and such debris was carried into the wound of the wrist. i would have expected that an undistorted high velocity missile striking the wrist would not have carried material into it. mr. specter. was there any other characteristic which led and leads you to conclude that the wrist was not the initial point of impact of a single high velocity bullet? dr. gregory. yes. based on our experience with high velocity missile wounds of the forearm produced by rifles of the deer hunting calibre, there is tremendous soft tissue destruction as well as bone fragmentation which not infrequently culminates in amputation of the part. i do not believe that the missile wound in governor connally's right forearm was produced by a missile of such magnitude at the time it struck him. it either had to be one of lower initial energy or a missile which had been partially expended elsewhere before it struck his wrist. mr. specter. would that opinion apply if you assumed that the missile had initial velocity when leaving the muzzle of the weapon of feet per second? dr. gregory. that's not a very high velocity missile. mr. specter. pardon me-- , feet per second. dr. gregory. i should say that a missile at , feet per second that strikes the forearm is likely to blow it very nearly off, if it is a missile of any mass as well. mr. specter. well, assume that you have a muzzle velocity of , feet per second and assume the mass is . mm., and assume further that the distance between the muzzle and the wrist is approximately to feet away, what would you expect, based on your experience, that the consequences would be on that wrist? dr. gregory. i will have to say that most of the high velocity rifle wounds that i have seen of the forearm have, in fact, been at a closer range than that which you have stipulated, but i doubt that a range of or feet would seriously reduce the energy, and i would expect a similar wound, under the circumstances which you have described. mr. specter. let me add another possibility in this sequence, dr. gregory, and ask you your opinion with respect to an additional intervening victim in the path of the same bullet to this effect--assume that president kennedy was riding in an open automobile directly behind governor connally, and that at a distance of approximately feet president kennedy was struck by a bullet from a weapon with a muzzle velocity of , feet per second, carrying a . mm. missile and that the missile entered in the upper right of the president's back very near the neckline and passed through his body, striking no bony material, and emerged from the throat of the president. is it possible that missile could have then entered the back of the governor and inflicted the chest wound which you have described? dr. gregory. i would have to concede that that would be possible--yes. mr. specter. what would your professional opinion be, if you can formulate one, as to whether or not that actually did happen in this situation? dr. gregory. i really couldn't formulate an objective opinion about it. only, for this reason, that it would then become a question simply of trajectories, and lining the two bodies up in such a way that this sequence of events could have occurred. i would hazard one guess, that is, that had the missile that struck governor connally passed through president kennedy first, that though the missile would not have been distorted necessarily, it would very probably have begun to tumble. now, if you like, i will define that for you. mr. specter. would you please? dr. gregory. a tumbling is a second--it actually is a third component of motion that a missile may go through in its trajectory. first, there is a linear motion from muzzle to target on point of impact. in order to keep a missile on its path, there is imparted to it a rotary motion so that it is spinning. now, both of these are commensurate with the constant trajectory. a third component, which is tumbling, and is literally the end over end motion, which may be imparted to a missile should it strike something in flight that deflects but does not stop it--in this circumstance the wound of entry created by such a missile usually is quite large and the destruction it creates is increased, as a matter of fact, by such tumbling, and i would have therefore expected to see perhaps some organic material carried into a large wound of entry in governor connally's back. these are only theoretical observations, but these are some of the reasons why i would believe that the missile in the governor behaved as though it had never struck anything except him. mr. specter. did you observe the nature of the wound in the governor's back? dr. gregory. only so far as i saw it as dr. shaw was preparing to operate on it, but i was unable to see the nature of the wound as he carried out his operation. i did, however, specifically question him about this matter of containing foreign material, clothing, etc. mr. specter. what did he say about that? dr. gregory. well, as i recall it, he said none was found, and i would not have expected any to be found as i explained to you, if this was the initial impact of that missile. mr. specter. well, wouldn't you think it possible, bearing in mind that my last question only went as to whether the same bullet could have gone through president kennedy and inflicted the wound on governor connolly's chest, would you think it possible that the same missile could have gone through president kennedy in the way i described and have inflicted all three of the wounds, that is, the entry and exit on the chest, the entry and exit on the wrist, and the entry into the thigh which you described. dr. gregory. i suspect it's possible, but i would say it would have to be a remarkably powerful missile to have done so. mr. specter. dr. gregory, have you been interviewed about this matter prior to today by any representative of the federal government? dr. gregory. yes; on two or three occasions i have talked to a properly identified member of the secret service, mr. warren, i believe it was. mr. specter. and what was the nature of the information which you gave to mr. warren on those occasions? dr. gregory. essentially the same thing as i have told you here, but in much less detail. mr. specter. and have you ever talked to anyone besides mr. warren and me about these matters, from the federal government? dr. gregory. no; not that i know of. i was on a day or so after the assassination spoken to in these offices by a member of the federal bureau of investigation, but it was a very brief interview. mr. specter. what was that about? dr. gregory. and i think it was the question of whether or not i had been able to recover any metal from governor connally which they might use for ballistic analysis. i regret to say i don't know the gentleman's name, but he too was properly identified. mr. specter. and prior to the time when the court reporter started to transcribe the deposition which you have been kind enough to provide us with, had you and i been talking about the same subjects which you have answered questions on all during the course of this deposition? dr. gregory. yes. mr. specter. and during the time that you first were interviewed by the secret service down through the present moment, have you had the same general opinion concerning the matters which you have testified about here today? dr. gregory. yes. mr. specter. do you have anything to add which you think would be helpful in any way to the work of the commission? dr. gregory. no; not really. this is the only articulation i have had with this whole episode concerning governor connally's wound and his subsequent recovery and none other. mr. specter. thank you very much, dr. gregory, for coming. dr. gregory. very well. testimony of dr. george t. shires the testimony of dr. george t. shires was taken at : p.m., on march , , at parkland memorial hospital, dallas, tex., by mr. arlen specter, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. specter. let the record show that as we are reconvening this session and about to commence the deposition of dr. george t. shires, that the preliminary statement is being made that this is pursuant to the investigation being conducted by the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy to determine all the facts relating to the shooting, including the treatment rendered to governor connally as well as president kennedy, and that dr. shires has appeared here today in response to a letter of request from the president's commission to testify concerning his knowledge of the treatment which he and other medical personnel at parkland hospital performed on governor connally. will you rise, please, dr. shires and raise your right hand. do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give before the president's commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? dr. shires. i do. mr. specter. would you state your full name, please, for the record? dr. shires. george thomas shires. mr. specter. and what is your profession, sir? dr. shires. professor of surgery and chairman of the department of surgery, university of texas, southwestern medical school. mr. specter. and you are a medical doctor by profession, i assume? dr. shires. yes; m.d. mr. specter. would you outline briefly your educational background? dr. shires. undergraduate education at the university of texas in austin, tex.; graduate medical education at the university of texas, southwestern medical school in dallas; internship, massachusetts memorial hospital in boston, mass.; surgical residency--parkland memorial hospital in dallas, tex.; two tours of active duty in the united states navy, first as research investigator at the naval medical research institute, national naval medical center, bethesda, md.; second as associate surgeon, united states naval hospital ship _haven_--do you want staff positions? mr. specter. please, give me those, as well. dr. shires. subsequently, clinical instructor in surgery, university of texas, southwestern medical school, progressing through assistant professor of surgery, associate professor of surgery, professor of surgery, and chairman of the department of surgery. mr. specter. what was your year of graduation from college, dr. shires? dr. shires. this was premedical, and at that time the war was on, so it was a premedical years--it was . mr. specter. and what year did you receive your medical degree? dr. shires. . mr. specter. are you board certified at the present time? dr. shires. yes. mr. specter. and, in what year were you so certified? dr. shires. i was certified by the american board of surgery in . mr. specter. did you have occasion to render any medical treatment for president kennedy back on november , ? dr. shires. no; i was not in town at the time the shooting occurred. i was in galveston, tex., at the meeting of the western surgical association. mr. specter. did you have occasion to render medical attention and services to governor connally, dr. shires? dr. shires. yes. mr. specter. will you state briefly the circumstances under which you were called into this case? dr. shires. after the president and the governor were brought to parkland hospital, it was determined--well--all aid was given to the president that was available, and it was determined that governor connally's injuries were multiple, the primary injury to governor connally was to the chest. dr. shaw, who is the professor of surgery--i don't need to tell their titles--you will have all that? mr. specter. yes--correct. dr. shires. dr. shaw ascertained the condition of governor connally, instituted therapy, and had the hospital notify me in galveston of the status of the president and also the governor. mr. specter. were you able to return then to dallas in time to assist in the operative procedures on governor connally? dr. shires. yes. mr. specter. and at approximately what time did you return to dallas? dr. shires. approximately p.m. mr. specter. and what participation did you have in the operative procedures on governor connally? dr. shires. at the time i returned, the chest procedure was in progress. the orthopedic procedure on the arm and the leg debridement were ready to be started. i scrubbed and performed the leg procedure. mr. specter. what did you observe, if anything, as to the condition of governor connally's chest wound? dr. shires. at the time i arrived, the chest wound had been debrided and was being closed. his general condition at that point was very good. he was receiving blood and the arm and leg wounds were being prepared for surgery. mr. specter. did you have any opportunity to observe the wound on his back? dr. shires. not at that time. mr. specter. did you have any opportunity to observe a wound on his chest? dr. shires. once again, not at that time--later, but not at that time. mr. specter. well, what did you observe at a later time concerning the wound on his back and on his chest? dr. shires. well, in part of his postoperative care, which was a large part of the treatment, we were concerned, of course, with all the wounds, and he had several chest wounds. these, at the time i saw them, had been debrided and were the site of draining, so that their initial appearance was completely altered by having had surgical debridement, so they were clean postsurgical wounds with drainage, at the time i first saw them. mr. specter. would their alteration and condition preclude you from giving an opinion as to whether they were points of entry or points of exit? dr. shires. they would--really. mr. specter. what did you observe at the time you arrived at the hospital as to the condition of his wrist, if anything? dr. shires. at that point his wrist was being prepared for surgery, and although i did not examine this in detail, since i was concerned with the thigh wound, there appeared to be a through and through wound of the wrist which looked like a missile wound. mr. specter. were you able to formulate any opinion as to the point of entry or the point of exit? dr. shires. no; since i didn't examine it in detail; no, not really. mr. specter. and what did you observe as to the wound on the thigh? dr. shires. the wound on the thigh was a peculiar one. there was a cm. puncate missile wound over the junction of the middle and lower third of the leg and the medial aspect of the thigh. the peculiarity came in that the x-rays of the left leg showed only a very small mm. bullet fragment imbedded in the femur of the left leg. upon exploration of this wound, the other peculiarity was that there was very little soft tissue damage, less than one would expect from an entrance wound of a centimeter in diameter, which was seen on the skin. so, it appeared, therefore, that the skin wound was either a tangential wound or that a larger fragment had penetrated or stopped in the skin and had subsequently fallen out of the entrance wound. mr. specter. what size fragment was there in the governor's leg at that time? dr. shires. we recovered none. the small one that was seen was on x-ray and it was still in the femur and being that small, with no tissue damage after the debridement, it was thought inadvisable to remove this small fragment. mr. specter. is that fragment in the bone itself at the present time? dr. shires. yes. mr. specter. what would your best estimate be as to the size of that fragment? dr. shires. one millimeter in diameter--one to two. mr. specter. would you have any estimate as to how much that might weigh in grains? dr. shires. in grains--a fraction of a grain, maybe, a tenth of a grain--very small. mr. specter. a tenth of one grain? dr. shires. yes. mr. specter. what size bullet would it take to create the punctate hole which you described in the thigh? dr. shires. this would depend entirely on the angle and the speed and weight of the bullet. for example, a small missile on a tangent may create a surprisingly large defect. a large bullet with fast or a relatively slow velocity will create the same defect. mr. specter. what operative procedures did you employ? dr. shires. progressive debridement from skin, fat, fascia, muscle, irrigation, and through and through enclosure with stainless steel alloy wire and removable sutures. mr. specter. does that complete a general description of what you did to governor connally? dr. shires. in the operating room, yes. mr. specter. approximately what time did that operation start? dr. shires. approximately o'clock. mr. specter. the operation that you were concerned with? dr. shires. oh, the operation that i was concerned with must have started at : or o'clock, i guess it was. mr. specter. and about what time did it end? dr. shires. my portion of it--about minutes later. mr. specter. and who, if anyone, assisted you in that portion of the operation? dr. shires. doctors robert mcclelland, charles baxter, and ralph don patman. mr. specter. dr. shires, i am showing you a document identified heretofore as commission exhibit no. , which is the report of parkland hospital on the treatment of president kennedy and governor connally, and i show you a parkland memorial hospital operative record, dated november , , which lists you as the surgeon, and ask you whether or not this represents the report made by you on the operative procedures on governor connally? dr. shires. yes; it does. mr. specter. and, are those the same as the matters which you have heretofore described during the course of this deposition as to what you did? dr. shires. yes. mr. specter. now, what treatment, if any, have you performed on governor connally subsequent to november ? dr. shires. a tremendous amount--postoperative care was of the essence here in that he had multiple injuries, massive blood and fluid replacement, so that to describe the care is really a detail of postoperative--i don't know how much of this you want--in other words, he had clotting defects--i don't know whether you want to take this down--i just want to ask you how much detail you would like? mr. specter. start off with a general description--perhaps, i will direct your attention to some specific areas to abbreviate it. first of all, how frequently did you see him after november , ? dr. shires. for the first several days i saw him approximately every to hours for an hour or so each visit, and many times for and hours at a stretch. mr. specter. and after that time how frequently did you see him? dr. shires. decreasing frequency over the next weeks--never less than three or four times a day, even after he was convalescing. mr. specter. how long was he in the hospital? dr. shires. i don't really know the number of days he was in the hospital. mr. specter. after he left the hospital, have you seen him? dr. shires. yes; i saw him again approximately weeks, i guess it was, after he left the hospital, in austin. he developed a superficial saphenous thrombophlebitis in the right leg, not the one that the injury occurred in. this was undoubtedly incident to a catheter cutdown having been placed in this leg for administration of blood and fluids while he was in the hospital. he unequivocably had a clot in the saphenous vein and at this time was placed on bed rest, antibiotics, anticoagulants and responded very satisfactorily. mr. specter. do you anticipate seeing him in the future? dr. shires. do i? mr. specter. yes. dr. shires. not for his wounds. no--the only followup care that he really requires at the moment is the bone--the orthopedic followup, which incidentally is also completely healed. mr. specter. doctor, look, if you will, at a document which we have marked dr. gregory x- , used in the course of the deposition of dr. gregory, which immediately preceded yours and directing your attention first to diagram number , would the entry and exit holes on governor connally's back and chest, being entry and exit, respectively, and the exit and entry on the wrist with the entry being on the back side of the wrist and the exit on the front side of the wrist, correspond with your observations of governor connally? dr. shires. yes; they would. mr. specter. now, going to diagram , which depicts a man standing, would that correspond to the angle of the entry and exit wounds? dr. shires. yes. mr. specter. now, going to diagram no. , would that diagram correspond with the wounds on governor connally as you recollect them to be? dr. shires. yes. mr. specter. going now to diagram , would that again correspond with the wounds on governor connally? dr. shires. yes. mr. specter. and as to diagram no. , what does that represent? dr. shires. this, at the time of the discussion of governor connally's injuries with his wife, before he really regained consciousness from surgery, was the apparent position that he was in in the car, which would explain one missile producing all three wounds. mr. specter. did you have a discussion with mrs. connally? dr. shires. yes; with mrs. connally. mr. specter. and when was that discussion? dr. shires. right after the surgery--this was the d, late in the afternoon. mr. specter. and what, if anything, did she tell you as to the governor's position? dr. shires. she had thought, and i think correctly so, that he had turned to his right after he heard the first shot, apparently, to see what had happened to the president, and he then later confirmed this, that he heard the first shot, turned to his right, and then was hit. i forgot about that a moment ago, incidentally. he definitely remembers turning after hearing the first shot, before he was struck with a bullet. i forgot about that. mr. specter. when did governor connally tell you that? dr. shires. oh, several days later. mr. specter. while he was in the hospital? dr. shires. oh, yes-- or days later and we were constructing the events. mr. specter. what was the occasion for your conversation with him? dr. shires. in part of his routine care one morning, as he was reconstructing his memory of events, because his memory was quite hazy, since he had a sucking wound of the chest and came in here relatively in anoxia, he had some cyanosis, as you know. mr. specter. what is cyanosis? dr. shires. not enough oxygen of the tissues and this means they turn blue. mr. specter. would that affect his memory? dr. shires. yes; sure would and did, and he remembers very little after he fell over in the car--he is very hazy, until, oh, probably the second day post-operatively. mr. specter. would that affect his memory as to what happened before the wound? dr. shires. no. mr. specter. or, would that affect only his memory while he was suffering from lack of oxygen? dr. shires. probably just while he was suffering from lack of oxygen. he didn't have that much hypoxia. hypoxia or anoxia or lack of oxygen could affect his memory. had this been severe, this could have affected his memory for preceding events, but his hypoxia fortunately did not last that long, and he never showed real evidence of brain damage from the anoxia, so that i think his memory for events up until the time he recalls falling over in the car is probably accurate. mr. specter. would you relate just as exactly as you can for us what he said to you, and the nature of the conversation, with your replies, and how it went as closely as you can recount it now? dr. shires. he recounted, and as i remember this particular occasion, mrs. connally was in the room too, and reconstructing events, she related the story of her last conversation with the president, relating to him, that the reception had been warm and that she was glad he couldn't say that people of texas and in dallas didn't like him and admire him, and she was very pleased with the way things had gone the whole visit. then, the next event that occurred was that she remembers hearing a shot, he remembered hearing a shot--he remembers turning to the right, he remembered being struck by a bullet, and his next thought as he fell over toward his wife was "they're going to kill all of us," and that's the last really clear memory that he expressed to me until he remembers vaguely being in the emergency room, but very little of that, and then he remembers waking up in the recovery room several hours later. mr. specter. did he say anything to you about who he meant by "they"? dr. shires. he didn't say--he didn't comment on it at all. mr. specter. did he describe the nature of the sound which he heard? dr. shires. i don't believe he did--no. mr. specter. did anybody describe the nature of the sound? dr. shires. i think mrs. connally did. i think she thought it was, if i'm not wrong, she thought it was a loud retort, either a gun or a firecracker. i think she thought it was a bullet and i think he did too--thought it was a gun--i believe he did too. mr. specter. now, did governor connally say anything about hearing president kennedy say anything? dr. shires. no--no, he didn't. mr. specter. did mrs. connally say anything about whether president kennedy said anything? dr. shires. no, she didn't. she remembered mrs. kennedy saying some things, but she didn't remember anything about the president having uttered a word. mr. specter. what did mrs. kennedy say, according to mrs. connally? dr. shires. oh, it's vague, even in my memory, but things to the effect that her husband had been shot and--well, that was really the essence of it. it wasn't phrased that way. mr. specter. focusing on the time sequence--what did governor connally say as to the timing, number one, the time he was hit, and number two, the time he had heard a sound, and number three, the time he turned--those three factors? in what sequence did he relate them? dr. shires. as he recalled it, he heard a shot, he turned to the right and felt himself receiving a shot--in that order--in a matter of a few seconds. mr. specter. where did he feel himself receive a shot? dr. shires. in the right chest. mr. specter. did he make any comment about feeling anything in his wrist? dr. shires. no; i don't believe he did. mr. specter. how about feeling anything in his thigh? dr. shires. i don't believe he ever commented on that to me. mr. specter. did he say anything else to you at that time about his recollections on the day of the assassination? dr. shires. no; other than this striking feeling he had after he was hit, that someone was trying to kill all of them--apparently he remembers that quite clearly, right after he was hit, but that's all. mr. specter. did you discuss his recollection of the events of the assassination day with governor connally on any other occasion? dr. shires. oh, yes; sporadically, during his convalescence. mr. specter. what else did he say to you at any other time? dr. shires. he was just simply asking questions about things that happened to him in the emergency room, in the operating room, and he was a little surprised that he didn't recall them better, but this was after he was wounded in here, but that was really the main thing--he was surprised that he didn't remember some of the things--like the cutdowns for blood and that sort of thing that were done to him, and, of course, this is obviously because he was so anoxic at the time. mr. specter. did he ever describe anything in more detail in his recollection of the things on the day of the assassination? dr. shires. no. mr. specter. now, going back to the first conversation you had with mrs. connally on november d, did she say anything more to you other than that which you have already testified about? dr. shires. no--those were mainly the remarks that she made. i don't remember any others, except--well, no--most of the others were--we were discussing the governor's condition and outlook and chances for recovery and that sort of thing. mr. specter. now, looking again at diagram no. , what is your professional opinion, if you have one, as to whether governor connally's chest injury, wrist injury, and thigh injury were caused by the same bullet? dr. shires. well we all thought, me included, that this was probably one missile, one bullet. mr. specter. when you say "we all thought," whom do you mean by that? dr. shires. dr. shaw, dr. gregory--as we were reconstructing the events in the operating room in an attempt to plot out trajectory as best we could, this appeared to be our opinion. mr. specter. did any of your assistants consult with you in those calculations? dr. shires. i guess nearly all of them we have listed. mr. specter. dr. mcclelland, dr. baxter and dr. patman? dr. shires. yes. mr. specter. how about dr. osborne and dr. parker? dr. shires. they were working with dr. gregory. if they discussed it, i'm sure they did--it was before i got there. mr. specter. how about dr. boland and dr. duke who worked with dr. shaw? dr. shires. now, again, i talked to them and they were discussing it as they did the chest procedure, and again thought the same thing. everyone was under the impression this was one missile--through and through the chest, through and through the arm and the thigh. mr. specter. was there any one of the doctors on either of these three teams who had a different point of view? dr. shires. not that i remember. mr. specter. do you think it is possible that governor connally could have been struck by two bullets, one entering his back and emerging from his chest and the second going into his wrist? dr. shires. i'm sure it is possible, because missile sites are so variable, depending upon the size of the bullet, the speed at which it travels, whether it was tumbling or not. we have seen all kinds of combinations of entrance and exit wounds and it's just impossible to state with any certainty, looking at a given wound, what the nature of the missile was, so i am sure it is possible. mr. specter. do you think it is possible that, assuming a missile being a bullet . mm. with a velocity of over , feet per second, and the distance between the weapon and the victim being approximately to feet, that the same bullet might have passed through president kennedy, entering his back near the midline and emerging from his neck, and then entering governor connally in the back and emerging from his chest, into his wrist, through his wrist and into the thigh? dr. shires. i assume that it would be possible. the main thing that would make me think that this was not the case in that he remembers so distinctly hearing a shot and having turned prior to the time he was hit, and in the position he must have been, particularly here in figure , i think it's obvious that he did turn rather sharply to the right and this would make me think that it was a second shot, but this is purely conjecture, of course. mr. specter. well, is there anything, aside from what he told you, that is, anything in the characteristics of the wounds on president kennedy and the wounds on governor connally which would lead you to conclude that it was not the same bullet? dr. shires. no--there is nothing. it could have been--purely from the standpoint of the wounds, it is possible. mr. specter. you referred just a minute ago to his turning position? dr. shires. yes. mr. specter. is the postulation of a turning by governor connally necessary to explain the point of entry in the back, exit in the chest, entry in the wrist, and exit in the wrist, and entry into the thigh, in order to have that line--to state it differently, is it necessary to postulate turning by the governor? dr. shires. depending upon the angle of the trajectory--i suppose not. i don't know what the angle of the trajectory was from where the bullet was fired. mr. specter. assuming an angle of declination of approximately degrees? dr. shires. this, i don't know without drawing it out, but as long as his right arm is drawn in front of him next to the exit wound on the chest, he is in a sitting position, if the angle of declination was right, then i think he could have received this facing straight forward. mr. specter. now, on the wrist, would that be palm of the wrist, back of the wrist, or how? dr. shires. i don't understand. mr. specter. in what position would the wrist have had to be in, in order to have the same bullet make all three wounds? dr. shires. the main point was that his arm be up here. in other words, in some fashion, however his hand happened to be turned, but he had to have his right arm raised up, next to his chest. mr. specter. his wrist would have to be up with the palm down, would it not? dr. shires. as depicted here. mr. specter. in order for the point of entry to be on the dorsal side? dr. shires. that's right, again, which makes it a little more likely he was turning, since ordinarily you pronate your wrist as you turn, whereas, this would have been a little strange for him to have been sitting like this, but again, depending on what he had in his hand. it's just a question of which side is up. mr. specter. but it would be more natural, you say, for the palm to be down in the turning, which was as contrasted with a relaxed sitting position where it would be more likely his palm would be facing in towards his chest area? dr. shires. right. mr. specter. do you have any knowledge as to the damage which was done to the rib? dr. shires. only from hearsay from dr. shaw, that's all. mr. specter. do you have any knowledge as to what fragments there were in the chest, bullet fragments, if any? dr. shires. no, again except from postoperative x-rays, there is a small fragment remaining, but the initial fragments i think dr. shaw saw before i arrived. mr. specter. how about the fragments in the wrist, do you have any knowledge of that? dr. shires. again, there were small fragments which i saw during the procedure on the wrist, but i was not directly involved in that procedure. mr. specter. what opinion do you have, if any, dr. shires, as to whether the wound in the thigh might have been inflicted from a missile that did not pass through any other part of the governor's body, assuming that it was a . -mm. bullet with a muzzle velocity of , feet per second, traveling approximately to feet between the end of the weapon and the point of impact on the thigh? dr. shires. well, again, in that wound--it was strange in that the hole in the skin was too large for the amount of damage inflicted on the underlying tissues, so that had this been the case, this would have had to have been a tangential wound. had it been a tangential wound, then it's possible that small fragments could have gone into bone as it did and that the damage to the soft tissues was done only by that small fragment, so that the major portion of the bullet simply hit the skin in a tangent and went on in its course elsewhere. mr. specter. well, is it possible that the bullet could have hit governor connally with the thigh being the initial point of impact and do the damage which was done there with the high velocity missile that i have just described for you? dr. shires. is it possible to get a wound like that? dr. specter. yes, sir. dr. shires. yes; as long as it's on a tangent. mr. specter. is it likely to receive a wound like that from a high velocity weapon of , feet per second and at about to feet? dr. shires. if it's a tangential wound, tangential wounds can be very strange. a large bullet can cause a small hole if its on a tangent or a small bullet can rip out a fairly large hole on a tangent. it just depends on the time of contact and the angle of contact with the skin. that's why it's awfully hard to predict. mr. specter. so that wound could have either been the first striking of the governor from the bullet, or it could have been from a missile whose velocity was spent after going through president kennedy and through the governor's body and wrist and then caused that wound in the thigh? dr. shires. that's right, if it was a tangential bullet. mr. specter. dr. shires, have you ever been contacted by any representative of the federal government prior to today? dr. shires. yes. mr. specter. and who was it who contacted you? dr. shires. i don't recall the name--it was two individuals from the secret service. they presented their credentials at the time to the administration and then subsequently to me and they were given copies of our operative reports, statements made by people concerned with the president and governor at the time, and then subsequently one of those same two men from secret service returned and charted the entrance and exit wounds which you have described previously, or we have looked at previously in these five diagrams. mr. specter. have you ever been interviewed by any other representative of the federal government before today? dr. shires. no; not in person. i discussed over the phone with the fbi--well, that was with regard to oswald. i discussed over the phone what happened to the bullet that was taken from oswald, but not with regard to the president or the governor--no. mr. specter. on your prior interviews by the secret service, sir, did they cover the same subjects which you and i have gone over today, or were other subjects covered? dr. shires. no; essentially the same subjects. mr. specter. and was any different information given to you by the secret service at that time of either of those two occasions? dr. shires. no; the same as we have discussed here. mr. specter. now, prior to the time when you were sworn in and the court reporter started to take the deposition in shorthand form, did you and i have a brief discussion about the purpose of the deposition and the subject matters of interest to the commission? dr. shires. yes. mr. specter. and was the same information given by you to me during the course of that informal discussion as you have testified to on the record here this afternoon? dr. shires. yes; in less detail. mr. specter. and do you have anything which you would care to add which you think might be helpful to the commission in its work? dr. shires. no. mr. specter. well, fine, that concludes the deposition, thank you very much, dr. shires. dr. shires. are you interested in oswald--that's my only other question? mr. specter. well, let's talk about it a little off the record. (discussion between counsel specter and witness dr. shires off the record at this point.) mr. specter. let's go back on the record. dr. shires, before concluding the deposition, permit me to ask you just a few additional questions about care for lee harvey oswald. first of all, i again show you commission exhibit no. , the last two pages which purport to be an operative record of parkland memorial hospital on november , , concerning treatment of mr. oswald, with you listed as the surgeon, and i'll ask you to take a look at these two sheets and tell us whether or not that is a report which you prepared on treatment of mr. oswald? dr. shires. yes, it is. mr. specter. will you outline in a very general way what his condition was when you first saw him? dr. shires. when he was first seen in the emergency room, he was unconscious, without blood pressure or pulse, but with an audible heart beat, and attempts, feeble though they were, attempts in respiration. there was an entrance wound over the left lower chest and the bullet could be felt subcutaneously over the lower chest lateral projecting this trajectory through the body and looking at his general condition, it was fairly obvious that the bullet had transgressed virtually every major organ and vessel in the abdominal cavity, which later proved to be the case. mr. specter. what did you do for him? dr. shires. he was given resuscitation, including an endotracheal tube, intravenous fluids, blood, moved to the operating room, prepared, draped, an abdominal incision, laparotomy made, just as is described in the record. the injuries were in fact mortal and involved both major vessels in the abdomen, the aorta, the inferior vena cava, and there had been massive exanguinating hemorrhage into the abdomen--in and around the abdomen. after securing control of all the many, many bleeding points and the bleeding organs, he never had regained consciousness. approximately , --whatever it is, approximately, pints of blood had been given, and he had suffered irreparable anoxia from the initial massive blood loss incident to the gunshot wound. when his heart did stop, even though we felt this was a terminal cessation of heartbeat, efforts were made at resuscitation by open heart massage and all that went with it, but never once was an effective heartbeat obtained, so that our initial impression was that it was correct in that this was simply cardiac death and not cardiac arrest. mr. specter. did you come close to saving him, in the vernacular--in lay terms? dr. shires. there has never been recorded in medical literature recovery from a wound like this. there was too much blood lost too fast. had the injury occurred right outside the operating room, it might have been possible to reduce the period of anoxia that comes from overwhelming blood loss like this, sufficiently to have corrected it. we did control all the bleeding points with a lot of difficulty, finally all bleeding points were controlled and this was a mortal wound--there was no question about that. mr. specter. are the details of your observations, examination, and treatment of mr. oswald set forth in the two pages of this report which i have just shown you in commission no. ? dr. shires. yes, the operative reports that are contained there. mr. specter. thank you very much, dr. shires. dr. shires. thank you. testimony of dr. richard brooks dulany the testimony of dr. richard brooks dulany was taken at : p.m., on march , , at parkland memorial hospital, dallas, tex., by mr. arlen specter, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. specter. may the record show that dr. richard dulany is present in response to the request that he appear to have his deposition taken and he has been requested to appear here because he has been identified in prior depositions as perhaps being one of the first doctors to see president kennedy. dr. dulany, have you had an opportunity to examine the executive order creating the president's commission? dr. dulany. yes, sir. mr. specter. and the rules and regulations relating to the taking of testimony? dr. dulany. yes, sir. mr. specter. are you willing to have your deposition taken here today, even though you haven't had the days' notice which you have a right to, if you want it? dr. dulany. yes, sir. mr. specter. you are willing to waive that requirement? dr. dulany. yes. mr. specter. will you stand up now and raise your right hand? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the president's commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? dr. dulany. i do. mr. specter. would you state your full name for the record? dr. dulany. richard brooks dulany. mr. specter. what is your profession? dr. dulany. m.d.--medical doctor. mr. specter. are you licensed to practice medicine in the state of texas? dr. dulany. yes, sir. mr. specter. and would you outline your educational background, please, starting with college--graduation from college? dr. dulany. from college i went to the university medical school of oklahoma and then took my internship here at parkland hospital and was in the service for years in the navy, and i just got back from the service in november, and started a residency here in surgery. mr. specter. did you have occasion to participate in the care of president kennedy on november , ? dr. dulany. is this all recorded now? mr. specter. yes. dr. dulany. well, as i stated, i principally cared for the governor and then after his emergency treatment had been cared for, i went into the room where president kennedy was being cared for. mr. specter. were you present from the start of the governor's treatment? dr. dulany. yes, sir. mr. specter. and about what time did you go into the room where the president was being treated? dr. dulany. well, i believe the governor was supposed to have been in the surgery suite upstairs within minutes after he came in, and so i'm sure i must have been in the room where the president was, about minutes or so afterwards. mr. specter. what time was that, about, as best you can place it? dr. dulany. i don't really recollect the specific times. mr. specter. what did you observe as to the condition of the president when you entered? dr. dulany. well, at this time his pupils were fixed and dilated and he had a large head wound--that was the first thing i noticed. there was already a tracheotomy tube in the neck wound or what was later described as a wound, and had a cutdown running and several other doctors were putting chest tubes in. mr. specter. what doctors were present at that time? dr. dulany. i really can't be accurate on that. i remember dr. clark and dr. jenkins and dr. giesecke, dr. carrico, dr. martin white, and of course, the doctor that was probably down first of the staff members, dr. malcolm perry, and i remember dr. mcclelland, and dr. peters were in there. mr. specter. are those all the doctors you remember as being down there? dr. dulany. i believe those are all. mr. specter. can you identify any of the nurses who were there? dr. dulany. no, i don't believe so. i can't remember them. mr. specter. is there anything that you think that you know would be helpful to the president's commission in its inquiry into this matter? dr. dulany. i don't believe i could add anything any more than you probably already know. mr. specter. did you observe any neck wound on the president? dr. dulany. no, sir; i didn't. mr. specter. the tracheotomy had already been performed? dr. dulany. it had been placed in. mr. specter. had the incision already been made when you first saw the president's neck? dr. dulany. i really didn't examine it close enough to make any statement along that line. mr. specter. then, did you observe any wound in the president's neck at all? dr. dulany. no, i just know that the tracheotomy was in and later i was told that this was a wound when it was first seen--you know, that's the best i can tell you. mr. specter. that's fine, dr. dulany, thank you very much for appearing here today. dr. dulany. yes; thank you. testimony of ruth jeanette standridge the testimony of ruth jeanette standridge was taken at : p.m., on march , , at parkland memorial hospital, dallas, tex., by mr. arlen specter, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. specter. miss standridge, would you stand up and raise your right hand, please? do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy in these deposition proceedings will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? miss standridge. i do. mr. specter. all right, you may be seated. miss standridge, the president's commission is investigating the assassination of president kennedy and all the facts relating thereto, and we have asked you to appear to have your deposition taken in connection with the treatment which was given to governor connally in parkland memorial hospital and to president kennedy in parkland memorial hospital, and all facts relating to that. have you received a letter from the president's commission requesting that you appear? miss standridge. well, there was a letter came and i was out of town and they opened it, the supervisor opened it and she had the letter, but i haven't seen it yet. mr. specter. you haven't seen it yet? miss standridge. no. mr. specter. well, let me show you the enclosures which were in the letter so that you may be familiar with them. here is a copy of the white house executive order establishing the commission, and here is a resolution establishing the rules for taking testimony. permit me to explain to you that the rules require that we give you days' notice, so that if you would request it now, we could delay taking your deposition until sometime next week, if you would prefer, or if you are agreeable to have us take your deposition, we can go right ahead and take it now. miss standridge (reading instruments referred to). thank you, you can just go ahead if you want to--it's all right with me. mr. specter. it doesn't make any difference to you whether it is today or next week? miss standridge. no; it does not. mr. specter. would you state your full name, please? miss standridge. ruth jeanette standridge. mr. specter. what is your occupation or profession? miss standridge. head nurse of the emergency rooms. mr. specter. at what hospital? miss standridge. parkland memorial hospital. mr. specter. what were your duties on november , ? miss standridge. i was working as charge nurse in the major surgery area in parkland memorial hospital. mr. specter. and did you receive notification that the president of the united states was en route to parkland hospital? miss standridge. yes; by my supervisor, doris nelson. mr. specter. and at about what time did you receive that notification? miss standridge. about : , i guess. mr. specter. and what action, if any, did you take as a result of getting that notice? miss standridge. immediately went to trauma room and i was in trauma room and began to set up renger liquid and check the suction machine. mr. specter. and was trauma room set up? miss standridge. mrs. nelson was setting trauma room up at the same time. mr. specter. were you present when one or more of the victims arrived? miss standridge. yes. mr. specter. and who was it arrived? miss standridge. governor connally was brought into trauma room first. mr. specter. did you observe president kennedy arrive? miss standridge. no; i was busy with the governor. mr. specter. and what did you do when the governor arrived? miss standridge. well, we began to take his clothing off and the orderlies continued that and the doctors and i started handing the syringe and medicine and things necessary to start the iv. mr. specter. and, what do you mean by "iv"? miss standridge. intravenous fluids. mr. specter. and did you assist in the taking off of governor connally's clothes? miss standridge. yes. mr. specter. what, if anything, did you notice with respect to the governor's shirt? miss standridge. there was blood on the front of it. mr. specter. was there any bullet hole on the front of the shirt? miss standridge. not that i can say for sure. mr. specter. there could have been or could not have been, but you just don't know? miss standridge. there could have been, but mostly it was just blood that we noticed. mr. specter. did you notice anything on the coat? miss standridge. there was blood on the coat. mr. specter. was he wearing his suit coat? miss standridge. yes. mr. specter. did you notice whether or not there was any bullet hole in the coat? miss standridge. i didn't see one. mr. specter. what was governor connally's position when you first saw him? miss standridge. he was laying on his back on the cart. mr. specter. and what kind of cart was he lying on? miss standridge. the emergency cart on rollers. mr. specter. what is that emergency cart constructed of? miss standridge. well, it's just a thin fixture with rubber padding on the top, and it is used to transfer the patients to the wards, and to x-ray and to surgery. mr. specter. is it made of metal? miss standridge. of metal with four big tires on it. mr. specter. with four roller tires on it? miss standridge. yes. mr. specter. and what was on the cart underneath the governor? miss standridge. well, there was just a sheet was all we had on there. mr. specter. was there anything on top of the governor? miss standridge. well, we put a sheet, when we unclothed him. mr. specter. was he completely undressed? miss standridge. yes. mr. specter. and was he lying on top of that cart while he was being undressed? miss standridge. yes. mr. specter. and who assisted you in the process of undressing him? miss standridge. well, david sanders was helping, he was my orderly that was in the room, and also an aid, rosa majors, and she took the money out of his pants, and dr. fueishier. mr. specter. how do you spell that? miss standridge. f-u-e-i-s-h-i-e-r (spelling), and dr. duke, and there was a couple of other doctors--i don't remember who they were, but they were up at the head, dr. fueishier and dr. duke, and dr. shaw came in before they got the governor's clothes off. mr. specter. did you notice any object in governor connally's clothing? miss standridge. not unusual. mr. specter. did you notice a bullet, specifically? miss standridge. no. mr. specter. did you hear the sound of anything fall? miss standridge. i didn't. mr. specter. were there other noises going on in the room at that time? miss standridge. yes, there were. mr. specter. was governor connally completely undressed in the emergency room? miss standridge. i believe so, to the best of my knowledge he was, i think everything was taken off. mr. specter. and what was done with governor connally following the completion of his being undressed? miss standridge. he was immediately carried to the elevator--emergency elevator. mr. specter. and in what way was he carried to the emergency elevator? miss standridge. on the emergency cart that he came into emergency room on. mr. specter. is that also describable as a stretcher? miss standridge. yes. mr. specter. you say "yes"? miss standridge. yes. mr. specter. did you assist in pushing him into the elevator? miss standridge. i started and then there was enough doctors pushing him and i went back to get his clothing and by the time i came back up again--i went just as quickly as i could walk back to trauma room and got the clothing, i ran back up to catch him, and the elevator was closing with him on it. mr. specter. did you actually see governor connally being wheeled into the elevator? miss standridge. no, the door was closing as i got back around. i started with him down the hall and then before i got back, they had put him into the elevator. mr. specter. who assisted in pushing him out of the emergency room and down the hall--is it a little ways? miss standridge. well, it's through the ob and gyn section. mr. specter. is that "obstetrics and gynecology" section? miss standridge. yes; you go through that section to get to this elevator from the major surgery section. mr. specter. how far did you help push him from the major surgery section? miss standridge. about from the door that went into obgn. mr. specter. about how far is that? miss standridge. oh, about feet, i guess, and they had about another feet to go before they turned to the left to get to the elevator, which is about or feet. mr. specter. so, you left him and went back to the emergency room to get his clothes, and when you came back, did you see any part of the stretcher? miss standridge. well, i could just see--i could see the stretcher--yes; and the doors and everybody in the elevator and the door was closed in. mr. specter. could you see governor connally on the stretcher? miss standridge. no, not--i think his feet were at the end--i could just see feet--i believe the feet were there at that door, you know. mr. specter. and, you saw the same doctors around the stretcher who were pushing him when you last saw him? miss standridge. yes. mr. specter. are you sure that was governor connally? miss standridge. no, that's what i said--i just saw his feet, which i assumed it was--it was the same doctors. mr. specter. about how long elapsed from the time you stopped pushing the stretcher until the time you got there to look and see just his feet? miss standridge. just a second, i mean, just a few seconds. mr. specter. you went back and got his clothes? miss standridge. yes. mr. specter. what did you do with those clothes? miss standridge. i asked the administrator who should i give them to, and they told me to give them to governor connally's party and they were in the minor medicine section and i went out there and there were two gentlemen out there and i asked them who i wanted to see--i wanted to see somebody in governor connally's party, and they opened the door and they asked for somebody, and he said he was--he identified himself as cliff carter. mr. specter. did you give him the clothing? miss standridge. yes. mr. specter. do you know what he did with it? miss standridge. no. mr. specter. have you heard what he did with it? miss standridge. i've heard that it got lost and they found it in representative gonzales' office in a closet. mr. specter. and is he a texas representative? miss standridge. i believe so. mr. specter. in his office closet where? miss standridge. in washington, d.c. mr. specter. are you limited in anyway from entering into the operating room area? miss standridge. we are limited, but there is a place where the spots are painted on the floor that is is legal for us to go through into the hallway into the nurses' station. mr. specter. you can go around in part of the operating room area? miss standridge. isn't into the premises--it's just in the hallway into the nurses' station. mr. specter. and what is the reason for limiting you from going beyond that into the operating room area? miss standridge. well, we are not considered--we would be contaminating. mr. specter. well, is there some problem about flammable gases up there? miss standridge. anesthesia equipment, that's right, and these spots are painted there, and if you don't have the proper shoes on, they will be a conductor, you know, and these spots are there for that area. mr. specter. was governor connally removed from the stretcher at anytime while he was in the emergency room? miss standridge. no; he wasn't. he never went to x-ray or he wasn't taken off at all. mr. specter. does the elevator that the stretcher was pushed into go only to the operating room? miss standridge. no; it stops on first floor and also goes up to delivery--up to the delivery room on third floor. mr. specter. what is on first floor? miss standridge. no patients--only classrooms and administrative offices--business offices. mr. specter. what is on third floor? miss standridge. the delivery room--it opens up into the delivery room and then the post mortem wards. mr. specter. do you have anything you would like to add which you think might be helpful to us in any way? miss standridge. well, not that i can think of other than that i have already stated. mr. specter. did you see president kennedy's stretcher at any time? miss standridge. yes; i was in the room--i took the mop in. the orderlies mopped the floor and we cleaned the wall, the blood off of the walls and so forth, to get it presentable before mrs. kennedy came back in. mr. specter. and was president kennedy in the room at that time? miss standridge. yes. mr. specter. did you see him there? miss standridge. yes. mr. specter. and you identified him from what you knew he looked like? miss standridge. yes. mr. specter. and how was he clothed at that time? miss standridge. well, as far as from his waist up--was all that was uncovered and they were trying to protect his head with a sheet--it was wrapped around his head. mr. specter. what clothing did he have on from the waist down? miss standridge. it was just a sheet cover--i don't know of anything under the cover, whether there was or not. i assumed he was all unclothed, which we do routinely. mr. specter. he was all unclothed? miss standridge. i said i assumed he was--i don't know. mr. specter. what did he have from the waist up? miss standridge. nothing. mr. specter. what was he on at that time? miss standridge. a stretcher cart. mr. specter. did you see what happened to that stretcher afterward? miss standridge. i didn't notice. they moved it from the room. mr. specter. do you know what happened to the sheets that were on the president's stretcher? miss standridge. no; i don't. mr. specter. did you and i meet previously before i started to take the deposition here today and talk about the procedures for the investigation by the warren commission? miss standridge. yes. mr. specter. and have you and i been discussing here, with me asking questions and you making answers all the things which we talked about before the court reporter came in? miss standridge. i believe so. mr. specter. have you ever talked to any other representative of the federal government? miss standridge. the secret service--yes, sir. mr. specter. and did you talk with them once or more than once? miss standridge. well, i talked with them one time in mr. wright's office and another time just briefly--he came to see the layout of the emergency room. mr. specter. whose office--mr. wright? miss standridge. personnel manager here. mr. specter. what did the secret service men ask you about on those occasions? miss standridge. well, just the same thing we have gone over today. mr. specter. and you talked with the secret service man in another part of the hospital on another day, you say? miss standridge. i think he came back up into the emergency room at that time. mr. specter. what did you talk about in the emergency room at that time? miss standridge. well, mrs. nelson, she showed him the different areas. mr. specter. and you identified some of the things? miss standridge. no, sir. mr. specter. have you ever talked with any other representative of the federal government? miss standridge. no. mr. specter. any representative of the state government? miss standridge. no. mr. specter. thank you very much. those are all--those are the only questions i have. miss standridge. thank you for that. testimony of jane carolyn wester the testimony of jane carolyn wester was taken on march , , at parkland memorial hospital, dallas. tex., by mr. arlen specter, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. specter. miss wester, this is miss oliver the court reporter and she will take down your testimony here and will you raise your right hand and take the oath? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give in this proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? miss wester. i do. mr. specter. may the record preliminarily show that the purpose of this proceeding is in connection with the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy to ascertain facts relating to the assassination and all medical treatment obtained by president kennedy and governor connally following their being shot. the witness at the moment is miss jane wester who has been asked to testify concerning any facts of which she has knowledge concerning treatment of president kennedy or governor connally and the disposition of governor connally's clothing and sheet in which he was wrapped at the time the governor was brought into the operating room at parkland memorial hospital. mr. specter. will you state your full name, for the record, please? miss wester. jane carolyn wester. mr. specter. and what is your residence address, miss wester? miss wester. brockbank, dallas. mr. specter. have you received a letter of notification from the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy advising you that i would contact you for the purpose of taking testimony from you in connection with this proceeding, miss wester? miss wester. yes; i have. mr. specter. and at that time did you receive the copies of the executive order creating the commission and the rules and regulations relating to the taking of testimony? miss wester. yes, sir; i did. mr. specter. and are you satisfied to appear here today and answer some questions relating to your participation in the treatment of governor connally? miss wester. yes, sir; i am. mr. specter. and president kennedy? miss wester. yes, sir. mr. specter. what is your occupation or profession, please? miss wester. i am a registered nurse. mr. specter. and at what institution are you employed? miss wester. parkland memorial hospital, dallas. mr. specter. and how long have you been so employed at parkland memorial hospital? miss wester. nine years--or / . mr. specter. will you outline your duties in a general way as they were back on november , ? miss wester. i am assistant supervisor in the operating room, and i assign personnel duties, direct them in their activities. mr. specter. did you receive notice on that date that president kennedy and governor connally were en route to parkland memorial hospital to receive treatment? miss wester. i was not aware that they were in the hospital. mr. specter. when was it first brought to your attention, if at all? miss wester. at noon, around noon--noontime--i'm not sure as to the exact time it was. i was relieving the secretary for lunch and the phone rang. someone in the pathology department asked if the president were in the operating room and i answered them, "no," and they said that a secret service agent was down there and as soon as the president did arrive in the operating room, would i please call them. mr. specter. what was your next connection, if any, with respect to the treatment of either president kennedy or governor connally at parkland? miss wester. i received a phone call from the emergency room asking us to set up for a craniotomy. mr. specter. and what is a craniotomy in lay language? miss wester. that's an exploration of the head. mr. specter. was there any other request made at that time? miss wester. yes--well--immediately following, following that i received a call to set up for a thoracotomy, which is an exploration of the chest. mr. specter. and were those two set ups made in accordance with the requests you received? miss wester. yes; i immediately assigned personnel to set up these two rooms for these two cases. mr. specter. and what room was used for the craniotomy? miss wester. the craniotomy was set up in room . mr. specter. and what room was used for the thoracotomy? miss wester. the thoracotomy was set up in room . mr. specter. and on what floor were the two rooms? miss wester. well, on the south wing of the second floor. mr. specter. what happened next in connection with this matter? miss wester. i assigned personnel to take care of the doorways to keep traffic out of the operating room and keep people back--keep the halls clear. shortly thereafter, governor connally arrived in the operating room with several doctors--arrived by stretcher. mr. specter. now, in what way did a stretcher arrive from the first floor, or by what means of locomotion? miss wester. the stretcher arrived by an elevator which is in the operating room--it comes directly from emergency room and which--there were several doctors with him that brought the stretchers up. mr. specter. and what happened to the stretcher after it left the elevator on the second floor of the operating room area? miss wester. the doctors brought this and were proceeding down the hall, and i met them in the center of the operating room suite itself. mr. specter. about how far is that from the elevator door? miss wester. approximately feet. mr. specter. what was done then with governor connally on the stretcher, following the point where you met them? miss wester. we proceeded to room and outside of room we transferred governor connally from the stretcher onto an operating table and removed his clothes from the bottom of the stretcher and placed them in the hallway by the operating table. mr. specter. in what way was governor connally dressed or robed when you first saw him on the stretcher? miss wester. as far as i know, the only thing he had was a sheet on him. he had no hospital gown or anything else that i know of on. mr. specter. had his clothes then been removed by that time? miss wester. yes; he arrived without his clothes. they were on the bottom of the cart in a paper sack. mr. specter. and you said he was transferred from the stretcher onto an operating table? miss wester. yes. mr. specter. now, was that inside the operating room? or outside the operating room? miss wester. no; it's in the hallway right outside room --we transferred him onto the operating table, and then moved the table into the operating room. mr. specter. and did he have any clothing on at the time you transferred him from the stretcher onto the operating table? miss wester. i don't recall any clothes that he had on. mr. specter. what was then done with governor connally on the operating table? miss wester. the operating table was moved into the operating room and at that time they proceeded to start anesthetics on him and put him to sleep. mr. specter. what doctors were in attendance of governor connally at that time. miss wester. dr.--there were many--dr. giesecke, g-i-e-s-e-c-k-e (spelling)--there were so many. dr. ray, i believe, was there, and there were many others--right offhand, i can't remember. mr. specter. did you go into the operating room at that time? miss wester. i went as far as the doorway with him. mr. specter. now, what was done with the stretcher on which he came to that point? miss wester. i took the stretcher and rolled it to the center area of the operating room suite--rolled the sheets up on the stretcher into a small bundle. mr. specter. was there one sheet or more than one sheet? miss wester. i believe there were two sheets and i rolled one inside the other up into a small bundle. mr. specter. what is the next normal procedure with respect to the number of sheets on such a stretcher in like circumstances? miss wester. the cart--the mattress on the cart is covered with one sheet, the patient is usually covered with another. when they arrive in the operating room the sheet covering the patient is removed and a grey cotton blanket is placed over the patient and the sheets are rolled up and usually returned to the emergency room with the cart. mr. specter. what else, if anything, was on that stretcher? miss wester. there were several glassine packets, small packets of hypodermic needles--well, packed in and sterilized in. there were several others-some alcohol sponges and a roll of -inch tape. those things, i definitely know, were on the cart, and the sheets, of course. mr. specter. were there any other objects on the cart, on the stretcher cart? miss wester. right off, i can't remember---- mr. specter. do you recollect whether there were any gloves on the cart? miss wester. there could have been--i don't recall right off--i can't remember that. mr. specter. do you recall whether there were any tools on one end of the stretcher? miss wester. i know i set something down on the cart, i think it was a curved hemostat--i couldn't say for sure--i'm not sure. mr. specter. now, you have testified that you met governor connally on the stretcher when he was feet from the elevator door. is there any object at about that spot that is a landmark, so to speak, of that particular spot? miss wester. where i met governor connally in the operating room? mr. specter. yes. miss wester. there is a clock. mr. specter. about how far from the clock is the door to the operating room, room , where governor connally was taken? miss wester. i would say approximately feet. mr. specter. now, what did you do with the stretcher after governor connally was taken off of it? miss wester. i moved the stretcher back to the center area, fairly close to the clock, it wasn't right under it, but fairly close, and an orderly, r. j. jimison, walked up---- mr. specter. his initials are r. j.? miss wester. and he stood at the cart while i rolled the sheets up and removed the items from the cart, and from there he took the cart and proceeded to the elevator with it and the last time i saw him he was standing at the elevator with the cart waiting for him to be picked up. mr. specter. did you see that stretcher any more that day? miss wester. not that i know of. mr. specter. will you describe in a general way what that stretcher looked like? miss wester. well, it has four wheels and a lower shelf, a thin mattress on it, and side rails on it, on each side of the cart. it has a rubber rim at the edge of it, sort of a bumper type to the upper shelf of the cart. mr. specter. and what is it constructed of? miss wester. well, it's a metal--steel. mr. specter. what was done with the mattress? miss wester. it remained on the cart. it was not moved then, only the sheets were left and rolled into a bundle. and, when the sheets were rolled into a bundle, i didn't actually lift them up. mr. specter. did you see miss jeanette standridge at any time in connection with this particular movement of the stretcher? miss wester. no. mr. specter. did you see mrs. henrietta ross at any time in connection with this particular movement of the stretcher? miss wester. no; i believe she walked up on my right as i was rolling the sheets up. mr. specter. did you see darrell c. tomlinson at any time in connection with this particular movement of the stretcher? miss wester. no. mr. specter. were you interviewed by the secret service about these events at some time in the past? miss wester. yes; i was. mr. specter. were you interviewed by anyone else? miss wester. no. mr. specter. and did the secret service interview on one occasion or more than one occasion? miss wester. only one occasion. mr. specter. and immediately prior to your being sworn in and starting to take this deposition, did i have a very brief conversation with you about the purpose of this proceeding? miss wester. yes; you did. mr. specter. and about the facts to which you have testified since this formal deposition started? miss wester. yes. mr. specter. and at that did you tell me all the facts previously testified to here to this effect? miss wester. yes. mr. specter. did the sheet on which the governor was lying have anything on it? miss wester. it had some blood. mr. specter. have you made any notes or any written record of that sort concerning the matters about which you have testified here today? miss wester. no; i haven't. mr. specter. that concludes the deposition, and i thank you very much for appearing here. miss wester. fine. testimony of mrs. henrietta m. ross the testimony of mrs. henrietta m. ross was taken at : p.m., on march , , at parkland memorial hospital, dallas, tex., by mr. arlen specter, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. specter. may the record show that the oath has been administered to mrs. henrietta ross who is appearing here in response to a letter request to testify as part of the inquiry of the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy, which involves the treatment of president kennedy and governor connally at parkland hospital. mrs. ross has been asked to appear and testify concerning her knowledge about the stretcher cart on which governor connally was transported while in the hospital. mr. specter. with that preliminary statement, i'll ask you, mrs. ross, to state your full name? mrs. ross. mrs. henrietta magnolia ross. mr. specter. and where are you employed? mrs. ross. parkland hospital. mr. specter. in what capacity? mrs. ross. operating room technician. mr. specter. and what were your duties on november , ? mrs. ross. stand in the hall and guard the hall and not let anyone pass by i did not know. mr. specter. did you have occasion to see governor connally? mrs. ross. yes; as he came down the hall on the cart. mr. specter. did you see him as he left the elevator? mrs. ross. yes. mr. specter. about what time was that? mrs. ross. about--it should have been after o'clock because i was supposed to go to a class that day and i couldn't go. mr. specter. who was with him at the time, if anyone? mrs. ross. there were doctors all around in the corridor and i don't know exactly who--i only remember one person and that was dr. gustafason, because he gave me his coat to hang up as he was passing. mr. specter. was miss jane wester there? mrs. ross. she was up there; yes, sir. mr. specter. and what did you see them do with the governor, if anything? mrs. ross. they pushed him down in front of room and onto the operating table and put him on it. mr. specter. what were they pushing him on? mrs. ross. on a stretcher from the emergency room. mr. specter. will you describe the stretcher for me, please, starting with what was it made of? mrs. ross. it has four legs, four wheels and has a little rubber sheet on it. i mean, a rubber mattress, and the length of the normal body is the length of the cart. mr. specter. is it made of metal? mrs. ross. yes, sir. mr. specter. and what was done with the stretcher cart after they rolled governor connally off of it? mrs. ross. it was pushed back up toward room . mr. specter. is that toward the elevator? mrs. ross. yes, sir. mr. specter. and by whom was it pushed? mrs. ross. jimison. mr. specter. r. j. jimison? mrs. ross. i don't know jimison's initials, sir. mr. specter. he's one of the orderlies there? mrs. ross. yes, sir. mr. specter. and where did you last see the stretcher? mrs. ross. in front of room . mr. specter. did jimison have it in his control at that time? mrs. ross. the last time i looked he was pushing it; yes, sir. mr. specter. have you talked to the secret service about this? mrs. ross. yes, sir. mr. specter. on how many occasions? mrs. ross. one time. mr. specter. did you talk to anyone else from the federal government about this matter? mrs. ross. no, sir. mr. specter. do you have anything to add which you think might be helpful to the commission? mrs. ross. no, sir. mr. specter. thank you very much for appearing. mrs. ross. thank you. testimony of r. j. jimison the testimony of r. j. jimison was taken at : p.m., on march , , at parkland memorial hospital, dallas. tex., by mr. arlen specter, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. specter. would you stand up, please, mr. jimison, and raise your right hand. do you solemnly swear the testimony you shall give before this commission in the deposition proceedings will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. jimison. i do. mr. specter. mr. jimison, have you received a letter of notification from the president's commission advising you that you would be contacted to have your deposition taken? mr. jimison. yes, sir. mr. specter. and did that letter contain in it a copy of the executive order creating the commission, a copy of the joint congressional resolution about the commission, and the procedures for taking depositions by the commission? mr. jimison. i believe it did. mr. specter. are you willing to have your deposition taken today, sir; do you have any objection to my asking you some questions and having them reported by the court reporter here? mr. jimison. no; i do not. mr. specter. by whom are you employed, mr. jimison? mr. jimison. i would just say the hospital--county hospital. mr. specter. parkland memorial hospital? mr. jimison. yes; parkland memorial hospital. mr. specter. what kind of work do you do here? mr. jimison. orderly. mr. specter. let the record show that you have a badge on which says, "r. j. jimison". mr. jimison. right. mr. specter. "orderly." and is that your full name? mr. jimison. yes, sir. mr. specter. and what does the "r" stand for? mr. jimison. that's just an initial name. mr. specter. and how about the "j"? mr. jimison. same. mr. specter. so, people call you "r. j."? mr. jimison. right. mr. specter. what were your duties back on november , , mr. jimison? mr. jimison. my duties was the same as usual; that is, to transport patients to and fro, reclean rooms, betwixt each case. mr. specter. did you have occasion to see president kennedy on that day? mr. jimison. i did not. mr. specter. did you have occasion to see governor connally on that day? mr. jimison. i did. mr. specter. what were the circumstances under which you saw governor connally? mr. jimison. well, i would say it wasn't such a pleasant circumstance, but he was lying on a carriage, a hospital carriage, and i was--i assisted in helping move him from the carriage to the operating table. mr. specter. where was he when you first saw him? mr. jimison. he was on the second floor in the operating room suite, near room , where his operation was performed. mr. specter. was he taken to room or room ? mr. jimison. he was taken in room--i thought it was room , but maybe it could have been room , but i taken it to be room , because like i told you, i helped lift him off of the table, but usually we help put them in the room--at that time there was so many doctors that i didn't. mr. specter. did you see governor connally from the time he came off of the elevator? mr. jimison. no. mr. specter. what floor were you on when you first saw him? mr. jimison. i was on two. mr. specter. how far was he from the elevator when you first saw him? mr. jimison. i guess he must have been about feet. mr. specter. and how far was it from the elevator to the place where you were? mr. jimison. about how many feet? about or feet. mr. specter. was he near the big clock when you first saw him, the clock that is overhead in the center there? mr. jimison. yes. mr. specter. and were there doctors around him at that time? mr. jimison. yes. mr. specter. and did you help push the stretcher from that point to---- mr. jimison. (interrupting) no; i followed behind him to room and i helped them take him off. mr. specter. you helped them take governor connally and put him on the operating table? mr. jimison. i did. mr. specter. and what then was done with the stretcher that he was on? mr. jimison. well, the stretcher at that time was moved back from the table, of course, because they had to make room for the doctors to get up close to the table, which was back just a'ways and when i got free--whether it was miss wester or mrs. ross there--they pushed it back a little further, but they didn't get quite to the elevator with it; i came along and pushed it onto the elevator myself and loaded it on and pushed the door closed. mr. specter. what was on the stretcher at that time? mr. jimison. i noticed nothing more than a little flat mattress and two sheets as usual. mr. specter. and what was the position of the sheets? mr. jimison. of course, them sheets was, of course, as usual, flat out on the bed. mr. specter. had they been rolled up? mr. jimison. more or less, not rolled, which, yes, usually they is, the mattress and sheets are all just throwed, one of them about halfway, it would be just throwed about halfway. mr. specter. were the sheets flat or just turned over? mr. jimison. well, just turned over. mr. specter. were they crumpled up in any way? mr. jimison. well, there was a possibility it was strictly--a tragic day. mr. specter. it was what? mr. jimison. it was a tragic day. mr. specter. right, and everybody was a little shook up on account of it? mr. jimison. we didn't look too close. mr. specter. was there anything else on the stretcher? mr. jimison. i never noticed anything else at all. mr. specter. could there have been some empty packets of hypodermic needles or an alcohol sponge? mr. jimison. there could have been. mr. specter. or a -inch roll of tape? mr. jimison. there could have been something--small stuff, but nothing large like bundles or anything like that. mr. specter. what did you do with the stretcher then, you said? mr. jimison. pushed it on the rear elevator, which goes downstairs. mr. specter. is there any other elevator which goes downstairs to the emergency area? mr. jimison. not close in the emergency area--that's the only one. mr. specter. what was the purpose for your putting it on that elevator? mr. jimison. it goes back to emergency because it can be cleaned up there and remade and put in use again. mr. specter. is it customarily your job to put it back on the elevator? mr. jimison. yes; it is. mr. specter. did you ever take it down and put it in order yourself? mr. jimison. no, sir; we never carry it down ourselves. the fact is--the purpose is--we have enough to do up there, and we have men up there to take care of that. mr. specter. somebody else is supposed to take the elevator up there? is that right? mr. jimison. one of them--we put it on the elevator, then it becomes the responsibility of the emergency room. mr. specter. was there any other stretcher placed on that elevator later that day? mr. jimison. not during my shift. mr. specter. are you the only man who would put the stretcher on the elevator if there were one? mr. jimison. no, i is not, but might near--i could might near see of anybody--from where the elevator sits from where the halls were--i could might near see all of the stretchers put on there. mr. specter. if a stretcher was put on there it would have to be in your presence? mr. jimison. i would have had to be hid where i wouldn't be able to see it. mr. specter. what time did you put the stretcher from governor connally on the elevator? mr. jimison. i'm not too sure i know of the time. i really don't know exactly the time. mr. specter. well, about how long after he was taken into the operating room, did you? mr. jimison. it was lesser than minutes before or after. mr. specter. what time did you get off that day? mr. jimison. : . mr. specter. and you say there was no other stretcher placed on that elevator from the time you put governor connally's stretcher on until the end of the day? mr. jimison. until the end of my shift. you see, that's the emergency--from the emergency that we had from that time that he was brought up until i was relieved from duty that afternoon. mr. specter. did you notice any bullets on the stretcher? mr. jimison. i never noticed any at all. mr. specter. did i sit down and talk with you for a few minutes before the court reporter came in to take this all down here today? mr. jimison. yes. mr. specter. and have i asked you questions and have you given me answers just like in our short discussion before this deposition started? mr. jimison. (no response.) mr. specter. did you and i talk about the same things we have been talking about since the court reporter came in? mr. jimison. yes. mr. specter. have you ever been talked to by any other person from the federal government? mr. jimison. yes, i have. mr. specter. and who was that? mr. jimison. i don't remember his name, but shortly after that happened--i don't know, as i say, it was the federal government. mr. specter. what branch was he from? mr. jimison. i thought he was from the secret service. mr. specter. how many times did you talk to somebody from the secret service? mr. jimison. well, i talked to him once; he just talked to me once. mr. specter. and what about? mr. jimison. the same thing. mr. specter. and did you ever talk to anybody else about this fact? mr. jimison. no. mr. specter. do you have anything to add, that you think might be helpful to us? mr. jimison. well, no, because the fact is--because that's pretty well covered--just, i actually want to give facts about something i know something about, and during the time i know something about, and what actually happened from the time i got off--i couldn't tell you, but i do know there wasn't no carriage from the time that carriage was picked up until i got off from duty. this ain't actually--not in it, but due to this--this is--what i'm fixing to say is off of the book--i couldn't see after president kennedy because i didn't--i never did get up to the floor--so i didn't see him. i am glad if was any kind of help, mr. specter. mr. specter. you have been, mr. jimison, and we appreciate your coming in and helping us a lot. mr. jimison. same back to you. mr. specter. thank you. testimony of darrell c. tomlinson the testimony of darrell c. tomlinson was taken on march , , at parkland memorial hospital, dallas, tex., by mr. arlen specter, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. specter. mr. tomlinson, this is miss oliver, and she is the court reporter. will you stand up and hold up your right hand and take the oath, please? do you solemnly swear that in the taking of your deposition in these proceedings, you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. tomlinson. i do. mr. specter. would you state your full name, for the record? mr. tomlinson. darrell carlisle tomlinson. mr. specter. mr. tomlinson, the purpose of this deposition proceeding is to take your deposition in connection with an inquiry made by the president's commission in connection with the assassination of president kennedy to determine from you all the facts, if any, which you know concerning the events surrounding the assassination of president kennedy and any treatment which was given at parkland memorial hospital to either president kennedy or governor connally, or anything that happened to any physical objects connected with either one of those men. first of all, did you receive a letter advising you that the commission was interested in having one of its staff lawyers take your deposition concerning this matter? mr. tomlinson. yes. mr. specter. and did that letter include in it a copy of the executive order creating the commission? mr. tomlinson. yes. mr. specter. and a copy of the congressional resolution concerning the creation of the president's commission? mr. tomlinson. yes. mr. specter. and a copy of the resolution governing questioning of witnesses by members of the commission's staff? mr. tomlinson. yes. mr. specter. and are you willing today for me to ask you some questions about what you observed or know about this matter? mr. tomlinson. yes, sir. mr. specter. and it is satisfactory with you to proceed today rather than to have days from the time you got the letter, which was yesterday? mr. tomlinson. it's immaterial. mr. specter. it's immaterial to you? mr. tomlinson. it's immaterial--it's at your convenience. mr. specter. that's fine. we appreciate that, mr. tomlinson. the reason is, that you have the right to a -day notice, but if it doesn't matter to you, then we would like to go ahead and take your information today. mr. tomlinson. yes. mr. specter. we call that a waiver under the law, if it is all right with you for us to talk with you today, then i want to go ahead and do that; is that all right? mr. tomlinson. yes. mr. specter. well, where are you employed, mr. tomlinson? mr. tomlinson. parkland hospital. mr. specter. and what is your capacity? mr. tomlinson. i am classed as the senior engineer. mr. specter. and what duties are involved in general? mr. tomlinson. i'm in charge of the powerplant here at the hospital, which takes care of the heating and air-conditioning services for the building. mr. specter. will you describe the general physical layout relating to the emergency area and how you get from the emergency area, say, to the second floor emergency operating rooms of parkland memorial hospital? mr. tomlinson. you mean just the general lay? mr. specter. yes, sir; please. mr. tomlinson. well, we have one elevator that goes from the basement to the third floor, that's what we call the emergency elevator. it's in the south section of the hospital and that would be your most direct route to go from the ground floor, which emergency is on, to the operating rooms on two. mr. specter. now, did you have anything to do with that elevator on november , sometime around the noon hour? mr. tomlinson. yes. mr. specter. and what did you have to do with that elevator? mr. tomlinson. well, we received a call in the engineer's office, the chief engineer's office, and he requested someone to operate the elevator. mr. specter. was there any problem with the elevator with respect to a mechanical difficulty of any sort? mr. tomlinson. no, sir; it was an ordinary type elevator, and if it isn't keyed off it will stop every time somebody pushes a button, and they preferred it to go only to the second floor and to the ground floor unless otherwise instructed by the administrator. mr. specter. so, what were you to do with this elevator? mr. tomlinson. key it off the ground, between ground and second floor. mr. specter. so that you would operate it in that way? mr. tomlinson. yes; make a manual operation out of it. mr. specter. when you came upon that elevator, what time was it, to the best of your recollection? mr. tomlinson. it was around o'clock. mr. specter. was there anything on the elevator at that time? mr. tomlinson. there was one stretcher. mr. specter. and describe the appearance of that stretcher, if you will, please. mr. tomlinson. i believe that stretcher had sheets on it and had a white covering on the pad. mr. specter. what did you say about the covering on the pad, excuse me? mr. tomlinson. i believe it was a white sheet that was on the pad. mr. specter. and was there anything else on that? mr. tomlinson. i don't believe there was on that one, i'm not sure, but i don't believe there was. mr. specter. what, if anything, did you do with that stretcher? mr. tomlinson. i took it off of the elevator and put it over against the south wall. mr. specter. on what floor? mr. tomlinson. the ground floor. mr. specter. was there any other stretcher in that area at that time? mr. tomlinson. there was a stretcher about feet from the wall already there. (indicating on drawing to which the witness referred.) mr. specter. now, you have just pointed to a drawing which you have made of this situation, have you not, while we were talking a few minutes before the court reporter started to take down your testimony? mr. tomlinson. yes, sir. mr. specter. now, would you mark in ink with my pen the stretcher which you pushed off of the elevator? mr. tomlinson. i think that it was this one right here (indicating). mr. specter. will you draw the outline of it in ink and mark an "a" right in the center of that? (witness complied with request of counsel specter.) mr. specter. now, would you mark in ink the position of the stretcher which was already on the first floor? mr. tomlinson. this was the ground floor. mr. specter. pardon me, on the ground floor? is there a different designation for the first floor? mr. tomlinson. yes. mr. specter. where is the first floor? mr. tomlinson. one above the ground. we have basement, ground, first, second, and third on that elevator. mr. specter. what floor was governor connally taken to, if you know? mr. tomlinson. he was on two, he was in the operating rooms up on two. that's our surgical suites up there. mr. specter. and what level is the emergency entrance of the hospital on? mr. tomlinson. well, it's the ground floor--it's there at the back of the hospital, you see, it's built on the incline there. mr. specter. and the elevator which you found in this area was on the ground floor? mr. tomlinson. the elevator? mr. specter. the stretcher. mr. tomlinson. yes. mr. specter. will you mark with a "b" the stretcher which was present at the time you pushed stretcher "a" off of the elevator? mr. tomlinson. (witness complied with the request of counsel specter.) i believe that's it. mr. specter. now, what, if anything, did you later observe as to stretcher "b"? mr. tomlinson. well, sir; i don't recall how long it had been exactly, but an intern or doctor, i didn't know which, came to use the men's room there in the elevator lobby. mr. specter. where is the men's room located on this diagram? mr. tomlinson. it would be right there (indicating) beside the "b" stretcher. mr. specter. would you draw in ink there the outline of that room in a general way? mr. tomlinson. well, i really don't know. mr. specter. and would you mark that with the letter "c"? (witness complied with request of counsel specter.) mr. specter. that's fine. what happened when that gentleman came to use the men's room? mr. tomlinson. well, he pushed the stretcher out from the wall to get in, and then when he came out he just walked off and didn't push the stretcher back up against the wall, so i pushed it out of the way where we would have clear area in front of the elevator. mr. specter. and where did you push it to? mr. tomlinson. i pushed it back up against the wall. mr. specter. what, if anything, happened then? mr. tomlinson. i bumped the wall and a spent cartridge or bullet rolled out that apparently had been lodged under the edge of the mat. mr. specter. and that was from which stretcher? mr. tomlinson. i believe that it was "b". mr. specter. and what was on "b", if you recall; if anything? mr. tomlinson. well, at one end they had one or two sheets rolled up; i didn't examine them. they were bloody. they were rolled up on the east end of it and there were a few surgical instruments on the opposite end and a sterile pack or so. mr. specter. a sterile what? mr. tomlinson. a sterile pack. mr. specter. what do you mean by that? mr. tomlinson. like gauze or something like that. mr. specter. was there an alcohol sponge? mr. tomlinson. there could have been. mr. specter. was there a roll of -inch tape? mr. tomlinson. no; i don't think so. mr. specter. were there any empty packets from hypodermic needles? mr. tomlinson. well, now, it had some paper there but i don't know what they came from. mr. specter. now, mr. tomlinson, are you sure that it was stretcher "a" that you took out of the elevator and not stretcher "b"? mr. tomlinson. well, really, i can't be positive, just to be perfectly honest about it, i can't be positive, because i really didn't pay that much attention to it. the stretcher was on the elevator and i pushed it off of there and i believe we made one or two calls up before i straightened out the stretcher up against the wall. mr. specter. when you say "one or two calls," what do you mean by that? mr. tomlinson. went to pick up the technician from the second floor to bring him down to the ground floor to get blood. mr. specter. and when you say before you straightened the stretcher up, what do you mean by that? mr. tomlinson. well, we just rolled them out of the way where we had some room on the elevator--that's a small elevator. mr. specter. so, when you rolled them out of the elevator, when you rolled the stretcher out of the elevator, did you place it against the wall at that time? mr. tomlinson. no. mr. specter. were both of these stretchers constructed in the same way? mr. tomlinson. similar--yes. mr. specter. will you describe the appearance of the stretcher with reference to what it was made of and how many shelves it had, and that sort of thing? mr. tomlinson. well, it's made of tubed steel with a flat iron frame on the top where you lay the patient and it has one shelf down between the four wheels. mr. specter. does it have any bumpers on it? mr. tomlinson. yes, and it has rubber bumpers. mr. specter. does it have any rail to keep the patient on? mr. tomlinson. yes; they have the rails on the side made of tubed steel. the majority of them have those. mr. specter. now, just before we started this deposition, before i placed you under oath and before the court reporter started to take down my questions and your answers, you and i had a brief talk, did we not? mr. tomlinson. yes. mr. specter. and we discussed in a general way the information which you have testified about, did we not? mr. tomlinson. yes, sir. mr. specter. and at the time we started our discussion, it was your recollection at that point that the bullet came off of stretcher a, was it not? mr. tomlinson. b. mr. specter. pardon me, stretcher b, but it was stretcher a that you took off of the elevator. mr. tomlinson. i believe that's right. mr. specter. but there is no question but that at the time we started our discussion a few minutes before the court reporter started to take it down, that your best recollection was that it was stretcher a which came off of the elevator? mr. tomlinson. yes, i believe that was it--yes. mr. specter. have you been interviewed about this matter by any other federal representative? mr. tomlinson. yes. mr. specter. who interviewed you about it? mr. tomlinson. i don't remember the name of either one of them, but one was the fbi man and one was the secret service man. mr. specter. how many times did the fbi interview you? mr. tomlinson. once. mr. specter. how many times did the secret service interview you? mr. tomlinson. once. mr. specter. when did the fbi interview you? mr. tomlinson. i believe they were the first to do it. mr. specter. approximately when was that? mr. tomlinson. i think that was the latter part of november. mr. specter. and when did the secret service interview you? mr. tomlinson. approximately a week later, the first part of december. mr. specter. now, do you recollect what the fbi man asked you about? mr. tomlinson. just about where i found the bullet. mr. specter. did he ask you about these stretchers? mr. tomlinson. well, he asked me about the stretchers, yes, just about the same thing we've gone over here. mr. specter. what did the secret service man ask you about? mr. tomlinson. approximately the same thing, only, we've gone into more detail here. mr. specter. what did you tell the secret service man about which stretcher you took off of the elevator? mr. tomlinson. i told him that i was not sure, and i am not--i'm not sure of it, but as i said, i would be going against the oath which i took a while ago, because i am definitely not sure. mr. specter. do you remember if you told the secret service man which stretcher you thought you took off of the elevator? mr. tomlinson. well, we talked about taking a stretcher off of the elevator, but then when it comes down on an oath, i wouldn't say for sure, i really don't remember. mr. specter. and do you recollect whether or not you told the secret service man which stretcher you took off of the elevator? mr. tomlinson. what do you mean? mr. specter. you say you can't really take an oath today to be sure whether it was stretcher a or stretcher b that you took off the elevator? mr. tomlinson. well, today or any other day, i'm just not sure of it, whether it was a or b that i took off. mr. specter. well, has your recollection always been the same about the situation, that is, today, and when you talked to the secret service man and when you talked to the fbi man? mr. tomlinson. yes; i told him that i wasn't sure. mr. specter. so, what you told the secret service man was just about the same thing as you have told me today? mr. tomlinson. yes, sir. mr. specter. when i first started to ask you about this, mr. tomlinson, you initially identified stretcher a as the one which came off of the elevator car? mr. tomlinson. yes; i think it's just like that. mr. specter. and, then, when---- mr. tomlinson (interrupting). here's the deal--i rolled that thing off, we got a call, and went to second floor, picked the man up and brought him down. he went on over across, to clear out of the emergency area, but across from it, and picked up two pints of, i believe it was, blood. he told me to hold for him, he had to get right back to the operating room, so i held, and the minute he hit there, we took off for the second floor and i came back to the ground. now, i don't know how many people went through that--i don't know how many people hit them--i don't know anything about what could have happened to them in between the time i was gone, and i made several trips before i discovered the bullet on the end of it there. mr. specter. you think, then, that this could have been either, you took out of the elevator as you sit here at the moment, or you just can't be sure? mr. tomlinson. it could be, but i can't be positive or positively sure--i think it was a, but i'm not sure. mr. specter. that you took off of the elevator? mr. tomlinson. yes. mr. specter. now, before i started to ask you questions under oath, which have been taken down here, i told you, did i not, that the secret service man wrote a report where he said that the bullet was found on the stretcher which you took off of the elevator--i called that to your attention, didn't i? mr. tomlinson. yes; you told me that. mr. specter. now, after i tell you that, does that have any effect on refreshing your recollection of what you told the secret service man? mr. tomlinson. no; it really doesn't--it really doesn't. mr. specter. so, would it be a fair summary to say that when i first started to talk to you about it, your first view was that the stretcher you took off of the elevator was stretcher a, and then i told you that the secret service man said it was--that you had said the stretcher you took off of the elevator was the one that you found the bullet off, and when we talked about the whole matter and talked over the entire situation, you really can't be completely sure about which stretcher you took off of the elevator, because you didn't push the stretcher that you took off of the elevator right against the wall at first? mr. tomlinson. that's right. mr. specter. and, there was a lot of confusion that day, which is what you told me before? mr. tomlinson. absolutely. and now, honestly, i don't remember telling him definitely--i know we talked about it, and i told him that it could have been. now, he might have drawed his own conclusion on that. mr. specter. you told the secret service agent that you didn't know where---- mr. tomlinson (interrupting). he asked me if it could have been brought down from the second floor. mr. specter. you got the stretcher from where the bullet came from, whether it was brought down from the second floor? mr. tomlinson. it could have been--i'm not sure whether it was a i took off. mr. specter. but did you tell the secret service man which one you thought it was you took off of the elevator? mr. tomlinson. i'm not clear on that--whether i absolutely made a positive statement to that effect. mr. specter. you told him that it could have been b you took off of the elevator? mr. tomlinson. that's right. mr. specter. but, you don't remember whether you told him it was a you took off of the elevator? mr. tomlinson. i think it was a--i'm not really sure. mr. specter. which did you tell the secret service agent--that you thought it was a that you took off of the elevator? mr. tomlinson. really, i couldn't be real truthful in saying i told him this or that. mr. specter. you just don't remember for sure whether you told him you thought it was a or not? mr. tomlinson. no, sir; i really don't remember. i'm not accustomed to being questioned by the secret service and the fbi and by you and they are writing down everything, i mean. mr. specter. that's all right. i understand exactly what you are saying and i appreciate it and i really just want to get your best recollection. we understand it isn't easy to remember all that went on, on a day like november d, and that a man's recollection is not perfect like every other part of a man, but i want you to tell me just what you remember, and that's the best you can do today, and i appreciate that, and so does the president's commission, and that's all we can ask a man. mr. tomlinson. yes, i'm going to tell you all i can, and i'm not going to tell you something i can't lay down and sleep at night with either. mr. specter. do you know where the stretcher came from that you found on the elevator? mr. tomlinson. no, sir; i do not. it could have come from two, it could have come from three, it could have come from some other place. mr. specter. you didn't see anybody put it there? mr. tomlinson. no, sir--it was on the elevator when i got there. there wasn't anyone on the elevator at the time when i keyed it off. mr. specter. and when you say "keyed it off," you mean? mr. tomlinson. put it in manual operation. mr. specter. mr. tomlinson, does it make any difference to you whether you sign this deposition at the end or not? mr. tomlinson. no. mr. specter. we very much appreciate your coming, mr. tomlinson. thank you very much. those are all the questions i have. mr. tomlinson. all right. thank you. mr. specter. off the record. (discussion between counsel and the witness tomlinson regarding a proposed exhibit.) mr. specter. on the record. now that the deposition of mr. tomlinson has been concluded, i am having the paper marked as tomlinson exhibit no. . (instrument marked by the reporter as tomlinson exhibit no. , for identification.) mr. specter. may the record show that mr. tomlinson is present, and will you identify this paper marked tomlinson exhibit no. as the one which contains the diagram of the emergency room and the letters a and b of the stretchers we have been discussing? mr. tomlinson. that's just the elevator lobby in emergency. mr. specter. and this is the diagram which you drew for us? mr. tomlinson. yes. mr. specter. that's all, and thank you very much. testimony of diana hamilton bowron the testimony of diana hamilton bowron was taken at : p.m., on march , , at parkland memorial hospital, dallas, tex., by mr. arlen specter, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. specter. may the record show that diana bowron is present following a verbal request that she appear here to have her deposition taken. during the course of deposition proceedings on march and march , it came to my attention that miss bowron would have information of value to the commission, and authorization was provided through the general counsel, j. lee rankin, for her deposition to be taken. miss bowron, the president's commission is investigating the assassination of president kennedy and is interested in certain facts relating to his treatment and presence at parkland memorial hospital, and we have asked you to appear here to testify concerning your knowledge of his presence here. now, i have shown you, have i not, the executive order appointing the presidential commission and the resolution authorizing the taking of testimony at depositions by commission staff members, have i not? miss bowron. yes. mr. specter. and are you willing to have your deposition taken today without days' written notice, as we ordinarily provide? miss bowron. yes. mr. specter. so, are you willing to waive that technical requirement? miss bowron. yes, i am. mr. specter. all right. will you stand up and raise your right hand? do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before the president's commission in these deposition proceedings will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? miss bowron. i do. mr. specter. what is your permanent residence address, miss bowron? miss bowron. brockbank, dallas , tex. mr. specter. will you spell that street name and speak up more loudly? miss bowron. b-r-o-c-k-b-a-n-k [spelling]. mr. specter. thank you. are you a native of dallas, or of some other area? miss bowron. i am a native of england. mr. specter. and how long have you been in dallas? miss bowron. since august , . mr. specter. and what are the circumstances surrounding your employment here at parkland memorial hospital? miss bowron. i answered an advertisement in august and came over on a year's contract and to work in the emergency room. mr. specter. are you a registered nurse? miss bowron. yes. mr. specter. and what is your educational background? miss bowron. i went to private boarding school and to secondary school, and then i went through nurses training for years and months in england. i finished in february of last year. mr. specter. and how old are you at the present time? miss bowron. twenty two. mr. specter. did you have occasion to render assistance to president kennedy back on november , ? miss bowron. i did; yes, sir. mr. specter. will you relate briefly the circumstances surrounding your being called in to assist in that case? miss bowron. i was assigned to work in the minor medicine and surgery area, and i was passing through major surgery, and i heard over the intercom that they needed carts out at the emergency room entrance, so the orderly from the triage desk, which was passing through and he and i took one cart from major surgery and ran down the hall and by the cashier's desk there were some men i assume were secret service men. mr. specter. did you know at that time whom you were going to aid? miss bowron. no, sir. mr. specter. you later assumed they were secret service men? miss bowron. yes, sir, and they encouraged us to run down to the door. mr. specter. and did you have a stretcher with you at that time? miss bowron. yes, sir. mr. specter. and was one stretcher or more than one stretcher being brought forward at that time? miss bowron. there was another stretcher being brought forward from the ob--gyn section. mr. specter. that's the obstetrics and gynecology section? miss bowron. yes. mr. specter. and were you wheeling one stretcher by yourself or was some one helping? miss bowron. no, the orderly from the triage desk was helping us. mr. specter. was helping you? miss bowron. yes. mr. specter. who was that? miss bowron. joe--i've forgotten what his last name is. i'm sorry. i know his first name is joe and he's on duty today. mr. specter. and who was bringing the other stretcher? miss bowron. i don't know, sir. i heard afterwards, that dr. midgett took one stretcher. i don't know who was assisting him. mr. specter. and what is dr. midgett's first name? miss bowron. bill. mr. specter. and, where did you take your stretcher? miss bowron. to the left-hand side of the car as you are facing it, and we had to move governor connally out first because he was in the front. we couldn't get to the back seat. while all the secret service men were moving governor connally i went around to the other side of the car to try to help with the president and then we got him onto the second cart and then took him straight over to trauma room . mr. specter. trauma room no. ? miss bowron. yes. mr. specter. and describe in a general way governor connally's condition when you first saw him? miss bowron. he was very pale, he was leaning forward and onto mrs. connally but apparently--i didn't notice very much--i was more concerned with the person in the back of the car--the president. mr. specter. and what, in a general way, did you observe with respect to president kennedy's condition? miss bowron. he was moribund--he was lying across mrs. kennedy's knee and there seemed to be blood everywhere. when i went around to the other side of the car i saw the condition of his head. mr. specter. you saw the condition of his what? miss bowron. the back of his head. mr. specter. and what was that condition? miss bowron. well, it was very bad--you know. mr. specter. how many holes did you see? miss bowron. i just saw one large hole. mr. specter. did you see a small bullet hole beneath that one large hole? miss bowron. no, sir. mr. specter. did you notice any other wound on the president's body? miss bowron. no, sir. mr. specter. and what action did you take at that time, if any? miss bowron. i helped to lift his head and mrs. kennedy pushed me away and lifted his head herself onto the cart and so i went around back to the cart and walked off with it. we ran on with it to the trauma room and she ran beside us. mr. specter. and who was in the trauma room when you arrived there? miss bowron. dr. carrico. mr. specter. where did dr. carrico join you? miss bowron. at the--i couldn't really tell you exactly, but it was inside major surgery. miss henchliffe, the other nurse who is assigned to major surgery, was in the trauma room already setting the i.v.'s--the intravenous bottles up. mr. specter. and were there any other nurses present at that time when the president arrived in the trauma area? miss bowron. i don't think so, sir. mr. specter. were there any doctors present besides dr. carrico? miss bowron. i didn't notice anybody--there may have been. mr. specter. what action did you observe dr. carrico take, if any? miss bowron. we tried to start an i.v. cutdown and i don't know whether it was his left or his right leg, and miss henchliffe and i cut off his clothing and then after that everybody just arrived at once and it was more or less everybody sort of helping everybody else. we opened the chest tube trays and the venesectron trays. mr. specter. how long were you present in the emergency room no. ? miss bowron. i was in there until they needed some blood, which was the second lot of blood. i went--ran out across to the blood bank and came back and went into the trauma room. by that time they had decided that he was dead, they said. and then, we stayed in there with him and cleaned him up, removed all of his clothing and put them all together and miss henchliffe gave them to one of the secret service men, and we stayed with the body until the coffin came, and helped put him in there, and then we---- mr. specter. when you say "we", whom do you mean by "we"? miss bowron. miss henchliffe and myself. mr. specter. anybody besides the two of you? miss bowron. yes; there was an orderly called david sanders who helped us to clean the floor, because there were leaves and sheets and everything was rather a mess on the floor and he came to clean the floor for us so that it wouldn't look so bad when mrs. kennedy went in. and then mrs. kennedy wanted to be alone with him after the priests left, so we all came out and sat there outside and she was alone with him in the trauma room, and we didn't go in any more after that. mr. specter. did you see him at any time after that? miss bowron. no, sir--only when they were wheeling him out in the coffin. mr. specter. what doctors were present during the time he was being treated? miss bowron. dr. carrico and--who else was there--there were so many. mr. specter. do you recall any of the names? miss bowron. i don't. mr. specter. was there any other nurses present other than those you have already mentioned? miss bowron. miss standridge, jeanette standridge came in, mrs. nelson--the supervisor. mr. specter. any other nurses present there? miss bowron. not that i could say, sir--i don't know the name of any. mr. specter. while the doctors were working on president kennedy, did you ever have any opportunity to observe his neck? miss bowron. no; i didn't, until afterwards. mr. specter. until after what? miss bowron. until after they had pronounced him dead and we cleaned up and removed the trach tube, and indeed we were really too shocked to really take much notice. mr. specter. did you ever see his neck prior to the time you removed the trach tube? miss bowron. no, sir. mr. specter. now, did you personally participate in removing president kennedy's body from the stretcher? miss bowron. no, sir--i didn't touch him. we held him with the sheet. mr. specter. were you present when his body was removed from the stretcher? miss bowron. yes; i was. mr. specter. and did you observe the stretcher from which his body was removed to be the same stretcher that he had been brought into trauma room no. on? miss bowron. yes. mr. specter. that's the stretcher you took out there for him? miss bowron. yes. mr. specter. and what sheets were present on the stretcher or in the adjacent area used in the care of president kennedy? miss bowron. the sheets that had already been on the stretcher when we took it out with the president on. when we came back after all the work had been done on him--so that mrs. kennedy could have a look before he was, you know, really moved into the coffin. we wrapped some extra sheets around his head so it wouldn't look so bad and there were some sheets on the floor so that nobody would step in the blood. those were put down during all the work that was going on so the doctors wouldn't slip. mr. specter. what was done with all of the sheets on the stretcher and on floor area there? miss bowron. they were all gathered up and put into a linen scape. mr. specter. did you gather them up yourself? miss bowron. yes. mr. specter. all of them? miss bowron. yes; with the help of miss henchliffe. mr. specter. and did the two of you put them in the linen hamper? miss bowron. yes; i put them in the linen hamper myself. mr. specter. what was done with the stretcher then? miss bowron. the stretcher was then wheeled across into trauma room no. , which was empty. mr. specter. was there anything on the stretcher at all when it was wheeled into trauma room no. ? miss bowron. not that we noticed, except the rubber mattress that was left on it. mr. specter. would you have noticed anything had anything been on that stretcher? miss bowron. yes; i think so. mr. specter. and where was the stretcher when you last saw it? miss bowron. being wheeled across into trauma room . mr. specter. now, i am going to show you three photostatic copies of newspaper stories which i will ask the court reporter to mark bowron exhibit nos. , and . (instruments referred to marked by the reporter as bowron exhibit nos. , , and , for identification.) mr. specter. will you look at those and tell me whether or not those are photostatic copies of newspaper accounts of your story of this assassination day? miss bowron. they are photostatic copies of the articles that appeared in the newspapers, but they are not all my story. mr. specter. what newspapers did they appear in? miss bowron. i believe this is the "observer". mr. specter. you are referring to bx number and what city is that published in? miss bowron. london. mr. specter. and bx number came from where? miss bowron. i think that this was "the mail--the daily mail". mr. specter. appearing in what city? miss bowron. it appears in all cities. it is a national newspaper. mr. specter. in england? miss bowron. yes; it is prepared in england. mr. specter. and how about bx- ? miss bowron. well, this i think was "the mirror" i think. mr. specter. what city is the mirror published in? miss bowron. that is a national newspaper. mr. specter. appearing in england? miss bowron. yes. mr. specter. were there any stories in any other newspapers about you and your participation in the events of the day at parkland? miss bowron. i believe there was one--i think it was an australian paper and mrs. nelson received a letter from there with an article and which was the same as i think--as this one. mr. specter. bx- ? miss bowron. yes. mr. specter. and does that constitute all the stories which appeared about your participation in this event? miss bowron. yes. mr. specter. now, will you state briefly the circumstances under which this information was obtained, if you know? miss bowron. mrs. nelson spoke to me and told me that there had been two english reporters in dallas who had been asking about me, and she told them where to get in touch with me, and the next day they came to the emergency room and wanted to speak to me and i said i couldn't tell them anything other than i was from england, gave them my home address, and the fact that i had been present and i was the one who went out to the car and brought the president in and being with him until they finished, and that was all that i told them. mr. specter. did you give them any information beyond that? miss bowron. no, sir; and they told me that there would probably be some english reporters calling on my parents at home, and i am the only child and my mother worries, so i called home the next--that night and told my parents that i had been on duty and that there would probably be some reporters calling on them, and they weren't to worry about it but they weren't to say anything that--except that i had been on duty and that was all. mr. specter. have you been interviewed by any representative of the federal government prior to today? miss bowron. yes, sir. mr. specter. by whom? miss bowron. i don't really know--he was an fbi agent. mr. specter. and when was that? miss bowron. it was a week or two, i think, after the assassination. mr. specter. and what did he ask you and what did you tell him? miss bowron. he asked us more or less the same questions you have asked us. mr. specter. what did you tell him? miss bowron. the same as i told you. mr. specter. when you say "us", whom do you mean by "us"? miss bowron. mrs. nelson was there and miss henchliffe and myself. mr. specter. have you talked to any other representatives of the federal government prior to today? miss bowron. no, sir. mr. specter. and did i discuss with you the purpose of the deposition and the nature of the questions that i would ask you immediately before we went on the record with this being taken down by the court reporter? miss bowron. yes. mr. specter. and did you give me the same information which you have put on the record here today? miss bowron. yes. mr. specter. do you have anything to add that you think might be helpful in any way to the commission? miss bowron. yes. when we were doing a cutdown on the president's left arm, his gold watch was in the way and they broke it--you know, undid it and it was slipping down and i just dropped it off of his hand and put it in my pocket and forgot completely about it until his body was being taken out of the emergency room and then i realized, and ran out to give it to one of the secret service men or anybody i could find and found this mr. wright. mr. specter. was that the same day? miss bowron. yes--he had only just gone through o.b.--i was just a few feet behind him. mr. specter. do you think of anything else that might be of assistance to the commission? miss bowron. no, sir. mr. specter. thank you very much for coming, miss bowron. miss bowron. thank you. mr. specter. thank you a lot. miss bowron. all right, thank you. testimony of margaret m. henchliffe the testimony of margaret m. henchliffe was taken at p.m., on march , , at parkland memorial hospital, dallas, tex., by mr. arlen specter, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. specter. miss henchliffe, the purpose of our asking you to come in today is in connection with the investigation being conducted by the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy. the commission has not written to you because, we have learned from mrs. doris nelson in the deposition taken yesterday that you have some information of value to provide to us so that the regular procedure has not been followed of sending you a copy of the executive order or of the resolution concerning the procedures of the taking of testimony. permit me to make those documents available to you. (handed instruments to the witness henchliffe.) let me say that since yesterday i have contacted mr. j. lee rankin, general counsel, in washington and he has authorized the taking of this deposition by letter, which i received today, so that it has been authorized, and the real question i have with you is whether it is all right with you to provide us with the information you have today, as opposed to sometime next week after you have had the days' notice which you are entitled to if you want it? miss henchliffe. it is all right with me. mr. specter. is it all right with you to proceed and have your deposition taken today? miss henchliffe. yes, sir. mr. specter. do you solemnly swear that the testimony you shall give before this commission as it is holding deposition proceedings now will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? miss henchliffe. yes. mr. specter. will you state your full name, please? miss henchliffe. margaret m. henchliffe. mr. specter. what is your occupation or profession? miss henchliffe. i am a nurse, registered nurse. mr. specter. and where are you employed? miss henchliffe. parkland memorial hospital. mr. specter. and where were you employed on november , ? miss henchliffe. parkland memorial hospital. mr. specter. and were you notified on that date that the president was on his way to the hospital? miss henchliffe. no, sir; i didn't know it at the time until later. mr. specter. when did you first learn about it, if at all? miss henchliffe. i found out who it was when i went out to get blood. mr. specter. about what time of day was that? miss henchliffe. well. i guess it was about minutes after he came in. mr. specter. did you observe him at some place in the hospital? miss henchliffe. i was working with him in the emergency room. mr. specter. had he arrived in the emergency room when you first arrived at the site of the emergency room? miss henchliffe. do what? mr. specter. were you in the area of the emergency room before he came there? miss henchliffe. yes. mr. specter. did you see him actually wheeled into the emergency room? miss henchliffe. yes; in fact, i helped wheel him on into trauma room . mr. specter. and, where was he when you first saw him? miss henchliffe. he was between trauma rooms and . mr. specter. did you see him when he was brought into the hospital itself? miss henchliffe. at the emergency entrance--no. it was after he came into the emergency room. mr. specter. he came into the emergency area? miss henchliffe. yes. mr. specter. and then you saw him and helped wheel him, you say, into the emergency room no. ? miss henchliffe. yes. mr. specter. and who else was present at the time you first saw him when he had just come into the emergency area? miss henchliffe. let me see, i think dr. carrico was there--he was there very shortly after--afterwards. mr. specter. he was there when you arrived? or arrived shortly after you did? miss henchliffe. well, actually i went in ahead of the cart with him and i was the first one in with him, and just in a minute, or seconds, dr. carrico came in. mr. specter. and what other doctors arrived, if any? miss henchliffe. oh, gee. let's see--there was dr. baxter, dr. perry, and you want all of them that were in the room? mr. specter. if you can remember them. miss henchliffe. dr. kemp clark, dr. jenkins, dr. peters, dr. crenshaw, and there was some woman anesthetist that i don't know which--who it was. mr. specter. what did you observe to be the president's condition when you first saw him? miss henchliffe. i saw him breathe a couple of times and that was all. mr. specter. did you see any wound anywhere on his body? miss henchliffe. yes, he was very bloody; his head was very bloody when i saw him at the time. mr. specter. did you ever see any wound in any other part of his body? miss henchliffe. when i first saw him--except his head. mr. specter. did you see any wound on any other part of his body? miss henchliffe. yes; in the neck. mr. specter. will you describe it, please? miss henchliffe. it was just a little hole in the middle of his neck. mr. specter. about how big a hole was it? miss henchliffe. about as big around as the end of my little finger. mr. specter. have you ever had any experience with bullet holes? miss henchliffe. yes. mr. specter. and what did that appear to you to be? miss henchliffe. an entrance bullet hole--it looked to me like. mr. specter. could it have been an exit bullet hole? miss henchliffe. i have never seen an exit bullet hole--i don't remember seeing one that looked like that. mr. specter. what were the characteristics of the hole? miss henchliffe. it was just a little round--just a little round hole, just a little round jagged-looking--jagged a little bit. mr. specter. what experience have you had in observing bullet holes, miss henchliffe? miss henchliffe. well, we take care of a lot of bullet wounds down there--i don't know how many a year. mr. specter. have you ever had any formal studies of bullet holes? miss henchliffe. oh, no; nothing except my experience in the emergency room. mr. specter. in what? miss henchliffe. in the emergency room is all. mr. specter. what was done to the president after he arrived at the emergency room? miss henchliffe. well the first thing, his endotracheal tube was inserted. mr. specter. were you present all the time he was in the emergency room? miss henchliffe. except when i left out to get blood. mr. specter. and how long were you gone? miss henchliffe. oh, about minutes or so-- or minutes. mr. specter. and were you present when he was pronounced dead? miss henchliffe. yes, sir. mr. specter. what was done with the president's body after he was pronounced to be dead? miss henchliffe. well, after the last rites were said, we then undressed him and cleaned him up and wrapped him up in sheets until the coffin was brought. mr. specter. and after the coffin arrived, what was done with his body? miss henchliffe. he was placed in the coffin. mr. specter. what had he been on up until that time? miss henchliffe. an emergency room cart. mr. specter. and is that also described as a stretcher? miss henchliffe. a stretcher--yes. mr. specter. would you describe what this stretcher looked like? miss henchliffe. well, how do you describe a stretcher--it's just a long---- mr. specter. made of metal? miss henchliffe. yes; it's made of metal. mr. specter. on roller wheels? miss henchliffe. roller wheels with a rubber mattress on it, rubber covered mattress on it. mr. specter. and after he was taken off of the stretcher, what was left on the stretcher at that time? miss henchliffe. just some sheets and i guess there were some dirty syringes and needles laying on it that we picked up. mr. specter. that you picked up--where were they placed? miss henchliffe. we placed them on a tray and took them all out to the utility room. mr. specter. how many sheets were there on the stretcher? miss henchliffe. well, i am really not sure--there was probably about two or three. mr. specter. and in what position were they all on the stretcher after president kennedy's body was removed? miss henchliffe. well, one was covering the whole mattress and there was one or two that we had left just under his head, that had been placed under his head. mr. specter. and what was done with those sheets? miss henchliffe. they were all rolled up and taken to the dirty linen hamper. mr. specter. do you know who took those to the dirty linen hamper? miss henchliffe. to the best of my knowledge, the orderly. mr. specter. and who was he? miss henchliffe. david sanders--is that his name? mr. specter. and what was done with the stretcher? miss henchliffe. it was rolled into the room across the hall. mr. specter. did you actually see the stretcher that president kennedy was on rolled into the room across the hall? miss henchliffe. yes. mr. specter. and into which room was it rolled? miss henchliffe. room . mr. specter. what was that? miss henchliffe. room . mr. specter. emergency room no. ? miss henchliffe. yes, sir. mr. specter. and, when it was rolled into emergency room , were the sheets still all on, or were they off at that time? miss henchliffe. i believe they were off. mr. specter. is it possible that the stretcher that mr. kennedy was on was rolled with the sheets on it down into the area near the elevator? miss henchliffe. no, sir. mr. specter. are you sure of that? miss henchliffe. i am positive of that. mr. specter. have you anything to add that you think might be helpful to the commission? miss henchliffe. no, sir; i don't think of anything. mr. specter. did i talk to you about the purpose of the commission and the same questions that i have been asking and the answers that you have been giving for a few minutes before the court reporter came in to take this down in shorthand? miss henchliffe. yes. mr. specter. and did you give me the same information at that time? miss henchliffe. to the best of my ability. mr. specter. thank you very much for coming. miss henchliffe. okay. (at this point the witness, henchliffe, was thereupon excused from the deposing room.) (in approximately minutes thereafter the witness returned to the deposing room and the deposition continued as follows:) mr. specter. let me ask you a couple of questions more, miss henchliffe, one other question, or two, before you go. was the wound on the front of the neck surrounded by any blood? miss henchliffe. no, sir. mr. specter. was there any blood at all in that area? miss henchliffe. no, sir. mr. specter. what was there about the wound, if you recall anything special, which gave you the impression it was an entrance wound? miss henchliffe. well, it was just a small wound and wasn't jagged like most of the exit bullet wounds that i have seen. mr. specter. if there was a high-powered rifle, or a high-powered rifle was going at a fast speed, as fast as , feet per second, which encountered only soft tissue in the body, would you have sufficient knowledge to know whether or not the appearance of that hole would be consistent with an exit wound? miss henchliffe. well, from some information i received in talking to someone about guns later on, they said that this is possible. but you have a small exit wound--you could have a small exit wound. mr. specter. under what circumstances? miss henchliffe. as you described--a very fast bullet that didn't hit anything but soft tissue going through. mr. specter. and do you have any other source of information or basis for having an opinion whether it was an entrance wound or an exit wound other than that source of information you just described, plus your general experience here at parkland as a nurse? miss henchliffe. no, sir. mr. specter. how long have you been at parkland as a nurse? miss henchliffe. well, i have had emergency room experience for about years here and a couple of years at baylor hospital. mr. specter. and is that the total sum of your experience? miss henchliffe. in the emergency room. mr. specter. and what other experience have you had besides emergency room experience? miss henchliffe. well, in the operating room here. mr. specter. how long have you had operating room experience here? miss henchliffe. years. mr. specter. and how long have you been a registered nurse altogether? miss henchliffe. years--almost years. mr. specter. and what is the source of information about the appearance of an exit wound from a high-powered gun which you have just described? miss henchliffe. i don't remember who i was talking to now. i was just talking to someone one day about gunshots and after this report came out that said that any high-powered gun that this could happen. mr. specter. that it could be an exit wound which looked very much like an entrance wound with the missile striking nothing but soft tissue? miss henchliffe. yes, sir. mr. specter. do you have anything else to add? miss henchliffe. no. mr. specter. thank you very much. miss henchliffe. all right. testimony of doris mae nelson the testimony of doris mae nelson was taken on march , , at parkland memorial hospital, dallas, tex., by mr. arlen specter, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. specter. mrs. nelson, this is miss oliver, the court reporter, and will you raise your right hand and take the oath? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give in this proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mrs. nelson. i do. mr. specter. may the record show that mrs. doris nelson is appearing to testify in this deposition proceeding conducted by the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy to provide whatever facts, if any, she may know concerning the treatment received by president kennedy and governor connally at parkland memorial hospital on november , . mr. specter. will you state your full name for the record, please? mrs. nelson. doris mae nelson. do you want my maiden name? mr. specter. fine, yes; what is your maiden name? mrs. nelson. morris, m-o-r-r-i-s [spelling]. mr. specter. mrs. nelson, have you had an opportunity to view the joint resolution of the th congress and the executive order which established the president's commission? mrs. nelson. yes; i read it yesterday. mr. specter. and have you had an opportunity to view the resolution of the president's commission covering questioning of witnesses by members of the commission staff? mrs. nelson. yes. mr. specter. and are you willing to be questioned today concerning this matter, even though you have not had days' notice? mrs. nelson. yes. mr. specter. therefore waiving the right which you have, a days' notice under the resolution? mrs. nelson. yes. mr. specter. what is your occupation or profession? mrs. nelson. i am a registered nurse, supervisor of the emergency room at parkland memorial hospital. mr. specter. and how long have you been so occupied? mrs. nelson. a year and months as supervisor of the emergency room. mr. specter. what were your duties in a general way on november , ? mrs. nelson. i was primarily responsible for assigning personnel in the treatment of the injured patients and carrying out security measures with the secret service. mr. specter. what notification, if any, did you receive on that date concerning injuries to president kennedy? mrs. nelson. i received a phone call approximately to minutes prior to their arrival, from the telephone operator, stating that the president had been shot and was being brought to the emergency room. mr. specter. what action after that did you take in preparing for the president's arrival? mrs. nelson. i immediately took the surgical resident into trauma room no. , notified him of the incident, and asked the--also told the head nurse that the president had been shot and was being brought to the emergency room. then, i went into trauma room , after the head nurse had told me that trauma room was set up for any emergency, and proceeded to open a bottle of intravenous fluid and set it up for an emergency situation. mr. specter. did you know at that time that anyone else had been injured? mrs. nelson. no; we were not notified as to anyone else being injured. mr. specter. what occurred with respect to the arrival of any injured party at parkland memorial hospital thereafter? mrs. nelson. as i walked out of trauma room no. i heard someone calling for stretchers and an orderly ran back into the area and got a stretcher and ran out of the door, and a few seconds later governor connally, who at that time i did not know who it was but recognized him as not being the president, arrived and i directed them into trauma room . mr. specter. did the orderly take out one stretcher, or was more than one stretcher taken out? mrs. nelson. i do not know exactly how many stretchers were taken out at the time because i was not out at that area. mr. specter. did another stretcher come into the area? mrs. nelson. yes; immediately behind the governor another stretcher was brought back into the emergency room and on this stretcher was president kennedy. mr. specter. how were you able to identify president kennedy? mrs. nelson. well, i could look and see him and tell that it was him. mr. specter. what part did you see? mrs. nelson. the--mainly his head. mr. specter. was there any coat covering his face? mrs. nelson. there was a coat thrown across the top of him, not completely covering his face, and mrs. kennedy--do you want me to tell about mrs. kennedy and the flowers? mr. specter. yes; continue. yes; in answering the questions, mrs. nelson, feel perfectly free to make as full an answer to the question--i hesitate to have you stop, so that the record we make will appear continuous and everything may be recorded fully for our record purposes. mrs. nelson. mrs. kennedy was walking beside the stretcher and the roses that she had been given at the airport were lying on top of the president and her hat was also lying on top of the president as he was brought into the emergency room. mr. specter. where was he then taken? mrs. nelson. he was immediately taken into trauma room . mr. specter. and who, if anyone, was present at that time to attend him in a medical way? mrs. nelson. dr. carrico, a surgical resident was there at the time that he was brought in, and dr. perry, an associate professor of surgery arrived shortly thereafter, and several doctors arrived, dr. baxter, associate professor of surgery, dr. kemp clark, professor of neurosurgery and chairman of the department; dr. bashour-- mr. specter. spell, please. mrs. nelson. b-a-s-h-o-u-r (spelling), chairman of the department of cardiology, and several other doctors who i cannot recall all the names at the present time. mr. specter. were you present inside of the emergency room where president kennedy was taken? mrs. nelson. when what? mr. specter. were you in there at the time they were treating him, caring for him at any time? mrs. nelson. on one occasion i went into the room and this was mainly to ask mrs. kennedy if she had rather wait out in the hallway rather than in the room where they were treating the president, and i was told by the secret service agent that she may stay in there if she wished. mr. specter. is there any table, or was there any table in the emergency room to which president kennedy was taken that he could be placed on from the stretcher? mrs. nelson. no. mr. specter. is it the normal situation to have no table present in the emergency room? mrs. nelson. the only one there is in case an ambulance should bring a patient in, but if a patient comes in the emergency room on a stretcher, then the stretcher that is in there is removed. then the patient remains on the same stretcher that he comes into the emergency room on. mr. specter. and was there a stretcher in the emergency room at the time president kennedy was taken in on a second stretcher? mrs. nelson. it was taken out when they wheeled it in. mr. specter. were there any sheets on the stretcher that president kennedy was on? mrs. nelson. yes. mr. specter. after president kennedy was taken off of the stretcher, did you have occasion to observe that stretcher? mrs. nelson. yes; the stretcher was stripped by the nursing personnel working in the room and the stretcher was moved across from trauma room to trauma room in order to get the stretcher out of the room. mr. specter. what personnel stripped the stretcher? mrs. nelson. margaret henchliffe, h-e-n-c-h-l-i-f-f-e [spelling], and diana bowron, d-i-a-n-a b-o-w-r-o-n [spelling]. mr. specter. did you actually observe diana bowron or margaret henchliffe strip the stretcher? mrs. nelson. no; i did not. this was the report that i received afterwards. mr. specter. from whom did you receive that report? mrs. nelson. from these two nurses. mr. specter. did you see the stretcher after it was stripped in the emergency room to which president kennedy was taken? mrs. nelson. no, i saw it after it was wheeled from trauma room to trauma room , because i was standing there at the doorway between the two rooms with the secret service police. mr. specter. but it was actually in trauma room ? mrs. nelson. yes. mr. specter. as it was being wheeled out to trauma room and at the time it was being wheeled out, was there any sheet on it at all---- mrs. nelson. no. mr. specter. rolled up on it in any way at all? mrs. nelson. no. mr. specter. did you see where the stretcher was then placed? mrs. nelson. yes, it was put into trauma room . mr. specter. where was president kennedy's body at that time? mrs. nelson. it was in--it had been placed in a casket in trauma room . mr. specter. and was the casket on any sort of an object or was it on the floor or what? mrs. nelson. it was on a form of roller-type table. mr. specter. and did--do you know what president kennedy's body was in, if anything, at that time? mrs. nelson. yes, one of the nurses, miss hutton, came out and said that the president was having extensive bleeding from the head and they had wrapped four sheets around it but it was still oozing through, so i sent her to the second floor to obtain a mattress cover, a plastic mattress cover, to put in the casket prior to putting his body in the casket, so the mattress cover was placed in the casket and i did not see this happen, but this is how it was explained to me by the nurse, and the plastic was placed on the mattress cover and the cover was around the mattress. mr. specter. which nurse explained that to you? mrs. nelson. miss bowron and miss henchliffe. mr. specter. and what was done with the sheets which had been used to absorb the blood from the president's body? mrs. nelson. well, there were approximately four sheets wrapped around him and the remaining sheets that were on the stretcher were pulled up and thrown in the linen hamper, according to miss bowron and miss henchliffe. mr. specter. and where is that linen hamper located? mrs. nelson. that linen hamper is located in the utility room area of the emergency room, which is just outside of the trauma room area. mr. specter. and what floor is that on? mrs. nelson. on the ground floor of the hospital. mr. specter. what was done with governor connally? mrs. nelson. governor connally was in the emergency room for a very short period, approximately to minutes, at which time he had chest tubes inserted, intravenous fluid started, anesthesia or oxygen given to him, and he was taken immediately from the emergency room to the operating room accompanied by several doctors. mr. specter. did you see him inside trauma room no. ? mrs. nelson. yes; i did. mr. specter. and did you observe him when he was taken out of trauma room no. ? mrs. nelson. yes, i saw him when he went upstairs to the operating room. mr. specter. and how did he get upstairs to the operating room? mrs. nelson. on a stretcher carried by several of the doctors. miss standridge went in front, and opened doorways and went to the elevator. i could not see her at the elevator but this is what she told me. mr. specter. how far could you see her? mrs. nelson. oh, approximately feet. mr. specter. and who is miss standridge? mrs. nelson. head nurse in the emergency room. mr. specter. what is her first name? mrs. nelson. jeanette. mr. specter. you say the stretcher was carried? mrs. nelson. well, it was wheeled. mr. specter. and what does the stretcher look like that governor connally was on? mrs. nelson. well, there are no specific details, it's an average type of movable four-wheel stretcher, made out of metal, with a plastic mattress on the stretcher. it has an elevation between--on the sides, so that the--i don't know how to explain exactly. mr. specter. a bumper-type effect? mrs. nelson. it has a bumper on the side. mr. specter. is there a tray underneath the place where the body was resting? mrs. nelson. yes. mr. specter. and is that the same general description of a stretcher that president kennedy was brought in on? mrs. nelson. yes; they were the same type. mr. specter. mrs. nelson, i'm going to show you a four-page statement which is marked "activities of doris nelson, r.n., beginning noon, friday, november , ," after i ask that it be marked as an exhibit in connection with this deposition. (reporter marked the instrument referred to as nelson exhibit no. .) mr. specter. is this a photostatic copy of the statement which you gave to mr. jack price, the administrator of the hospital, concerning your activities on november , , as they pertain to this matter? mrs. nelson. yes; it is. mr. specter. and are the facts set forth herein true and correct to the best of your knowledge, information and belief? mrs. nelson. yes; they are. mr. specter. did i meet with you for a few moments before we started this deposition and explain the purpose of the proceeding? mrs. nelson. yes; you did. mr. specter. did i ask you the same questions which we have discussed here during the course of my questioning before the court reporter? mrs. nelson. yes. mr. specter. thank you very much for providing this deposition to us. mrs. nelson. you are quite welcome. mr. specter. off the record. (discussion off the record between mr. specter and the witness, mrs. doris nelson.) mr. specter. back on the record, just a minute. mrs. nelson, i will ask you if you would sign the end of this statement here, that it is your statement? mrs. nelson. (signed statement referred to.) mr. specter. and are you willing to waive a requirement, if it is any formal requirement, as to the signing of this deposition? mrs. nelson. yes; i am. mr. specter. thank you very much. testimony of charles jack price the testimony of charles jack price was taken at : p.m., on march , , at parkland memorial hospital, dallas, tex., by mr. arlen specter, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. specter. may the record show that c. jack price is present to have his deposition taken in connection with the inquiry of the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy, which is concerned with the medical care rendered at parkland memorial hospital to president john f. kennedy and to governor john b. connally. authorization has been obtained to take the deposition of mr. price and he has had access to the copy of the executive order creating the president's commission---- mr. price. yes. mr. specter. and the rules relating to the taking of depositions of witnesses. is it satisfactory with you to have your deposition taken without having the -day waiting period between the request and the taking of the deposition? mr. price. yes. mr. specter. would you stand up, mr. price, and raise your right hand? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the president's commission and in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. price. i do. mr. specter. would you state your full name for the record, please? mr. price. charles jack price. mr. specter. and what is your official title here? mr. price. administrator, dallas county hospital district, comprised of parkland memorial hospital and woodlawn hospital. mr. specter. mr. price, in connection with your duties at parkland memorial hospital, did you request that all of the individuals who participated in the care and treatment of president kennedy and governor connally, or at least those who were principally concerned with that treatment, prepare and submit reports to you concerning that treatment? mr. price. yes; through dr. kemp clark, who is chairman of our medical records committee. mr. specter. and where have those records been kept after submission through dr. kemp clark? mr. price. the records were brought directly to my office. in fact, some of the records were written in my office and since that time have been kept in my custody, specifically under lock and key in my desk drawer. mr. specter. i show you a document which has heretofore been marked as "commission exhibit no. ," and i ask you if this constitutes all of the records of the doctors who examined and treated president kennedy and governor connally which are in your possession, that is all the records which were made by the examining doctors? mr. price. (examining instrument referred to.) do you want my comments as i go through this or do you want me to look through it and say "yes," or "no"? mr. specter. yes; i would like to just be sure for the record that those are all of the records. you and i went through them the other day informally and at that time you supplemented my records to some extent, which i will put on the deposition record here. mr. price. yes. mr. specter. perhaps, before going to commission exhibit no. , permit me to have this photostatic copy marked mr. price's exhibit no. . (instrument referred to marked by the reporter as price exhibit no. , for identification.) mr. specter. and i ask you if this is a photostatic copy of a letter which was sent by dr. kemp clark to dr. burkley, the president's private physician? mr. price. it is. mr. specter. and with that, the summary of all the treatments performed at parkland, which was prepared by dr. kemp clark? mr. price. that's right. mr. specter. and below that, another summary sheet which bears the corrected notation, with your signature over it, that the president arrived at the emergency room at exactly : p.m., with : scratched out? mr. price. that's correct. mr. specter. now, as you move through your file, permit me to also ask the reporter to mark as mr. price's exhibit no. , an affidavit of ulah mccoy, and i'll ask you if that is a copy of an original in your file? (instrument referred to marked by the reporter as price exhibit no. , for identification.) mr. price. yes; it is. mr. specter. and i will ask her to mark as mr. price exhibit no. an affidavit of doris nelson and i'll ask you if that is a copy of a report in your possession? (instrument referred to marked by the reporter as price exhibit no. , for identification.) mr. price. yes. mr. specter. your next report is one from dr. m. t. jenkins? mr. price. professor and chairman of the department of anesthesiology. mr. specter. and is that a copy of the document which you are looking at here? mr. price. it is. mr. specter. as part of exhibit ? mr. price. that's right, and my next one is the statement of dr. w. kemp clark. mr. specter. and is that the original of a copy of which appears in this group of papers as exhibit no. ? mr. price. yes; it is. the next one that i have is the statement of dr. perry. mr. specter. and is that the original of a copy of a statement which appears in exhibit ? mr. price. yes; the statement of dr. charles w. baxter. mr. specter. is that the original of a copy which appears in exhibit ? mr. price. yes; it is; that's the statement of dr. carrico. mr. specter. and is this the copy of the original of dr. carrico's statement? mr. price. yes; it is; and this is dr. mcclelland's statement. mr. specter. i now show you a photostatic copy of what purports to be dr. mcclelland's statement, and is that a copy of the original in your file? mr. price. yes; it is. mr. specter. what is your next report? mr. price. my next report is dr. bashour's report. mr. specter. and i show you a sheet in the group of papers marked exhibit , and ask you if that is a photostatic copy of the original in your file? mr. price. yes; it is. mr. specter. and what is next? mr. price. my next one is the summary of dr. ronald c. jones. mr. specter. now, i'll ask you if this is a photostatic copy of the original of the statement by dr. ronald jones which is in your file? mr. price. may i see it, please? mr. specter. yes. (handed instrument referred to to the witness.) mr. price. yes; it is. mr. specter. now, does that constitute all of the original records concerning the treatment of president john f. kennedy in your file? mr. price. with one exception--there is in the file that i have of governor connally the original of the transcript of "registration of patients," which i furnished you a photostat of, our number being . mr. specter. and is this a photostatic copy of that registration of patients? mr. price. it is; and i think i reviewed it with you at the time i gave this to you--the transverse of patients no. and no. . mr. specter. no. is marked john connally and no. is john f. kennedy, and how should that have been marked? mr. price. the first patient in the hospital was governor connally. mr. specter. so, he should have been no. ? mr. price. so, he should have been no. as shown on the transcript. mr. specter. and the president should have been noted as no. ? mr. price. the president should have been noted as no. . (instrument referred to marked by the reporter as price exhibit no. , for identification.) mr. price. the simultaneous arrival at the ambulance dock would not affect the time as shown in the corrected copy that i gave you of the arrival there. mr. specter. now, turn if you will, to the records on governor connally and i will ask you if as part of commission exhibit , we have photostatic copies of the operative records starting, first with the operation performed by dr. shaw. mr. price. i have the original of that but this is the complete medical charts that i have here. mr. specter. as to this report alone, do you have the original in that record? mr. price. here it is. mr. specter. and is this an exact photocopy of the original report prepared by dr. robert shaw, the original of which appears in your record on governor connally? mr. price. it is. mr. specter. is this an exact photostatic copy of the report of dr. charles gregory? mr. price. there has been since this photostat was made and forwarded to you--dr. gregory, prior to signing the official copy, did make some pencil corrections, and i will be glad to have the original photostated or xeroxed now and give you a corrected copy if you would like? mr. specter. that would be fine, and perhaps it would be faster just to read those changes into our record here. however, let's pursue the line of getting a xerox copy. now, turning to the report of dr. shires, is this a true and correct photostatic copy of dr. shires' report? mr. price. it is; it is a correct copy. mr. specter. now, i show you a large group of papers which i am going to ask the reporter to mark mr. price exhibits nos. , , , and . (instruments referred to marked by the reporter as price exhibits nos. , , , and , for identification.) mr. specter. i now show you a group of papers, and as they are being marked, if you would take a look at them. price exhibit no. --i'll ask you if these are photostatic copies of reports which you have made available to me of originals which you have in your file made by various members of your staff, concerning the events of november , and november . mr. price. do you want these individually or as a group? mr. specter. if you would identify the contents of the statement by the exhibit number which we have put on it, starting with the first numerical designation, would probably be the simplest. exhibit is what? mr. price. exhibit no. is a xerox copy of the floor plan of the emergency area. this is correct. the exhibit no. , the statement is unsigned, but this is the xerox copy of the summary submitted to me by my assistant, mr. steve landregan. mr. specter. and what is his position with the hospital? mr. price. he is assistant administrator. mr. specter. in charge of press relations among other things? mr. price. in charge of press relations among other things. mr. specter. and what is exhibit no. ? mr. price. exhibit no. is a xerox copy of peter geilich's statement to me. mr. geilich is administrative assistant, with primary assignment over at the woodlawn unit, and he is also the acting director of our outpatient clinic. mr. specter. and what is exhibit no. ? mr. price. exhibit no. is a summary of the activities of robert dutton, bob dutton, who is administrative assistant and is currently our evening administrator. (instruments marked as price exhibits nos. through at this time, for identification.) mr. specter. exhibit is what? mr. price. exhibit is a summary of activities of mrs. carol reddick, who is administrative aide. exhibit no. is a summary of activities of mrs. elizabeth l. wright, our director of nursing service. mr. specter. what is exhibit no. ? mr. price. exhibit no. is a summary of the activities of diana bowron, who is an emergency room nurse. mr. specter. exhibit no. ? mr. price. exhibit no. is a summary of the activities of sallie lennon. mr. specter. what is her position? mr. price. she is a nurse. mr. specter. i hand you price exhibit no. . mr. price. this is a statement of the activities of c. watkins, who is an r.n. in the emergency room. mr. specter. and i hand you price exhibit no. mr. price. exhibit no. is a report of the activities of faye dean shelby, and she is a nurse in the emergency room. mr. specter. price exhibit no. ? mr. price. this is the activities of era lumpkin, an aide in the emergency area. mr. specter. price exhibit no. ? mr. price. exhibit no. is a report on the activities of jean tarrant, who is an aide in the major medicine emergency room. mr. specter. i now hand you price exhibit no. . mr. price. exhibit is the activities of frances scott, who is assigned to the emergency room. mr. specter. exhibit no. ? mr. price. exhibit no. is the activities of willie haywood, who is an orderly in the emergency room. mr. specter. i now hand you price exhibit no. . mr. price. this is a summary of the activities of bertha l. lozano, who is a registered nurse in the emergency room. mr. specter. price exhibit no. ? mr. price. exhibit no. is a summary of the activities of pat hutton, who is an aide in the emergency room. mr. specter. i'll hand you price exhibit no. . mr. price. i'm sorry, i said hutton was an aide. she's an r.n.--in registration--a nurse. mr. specter. and what is exhibit no. ? mr. price. it is a summary of the activities of shirley randall, an aide in the emergency room. mr. specter. and what is price exhibit no. ? mr. price. a summary of the activities of rosa m. majors, an aide in the emergency room. mr. specter. and what is price exhibit ? mr. price. price exhibit is a summary of the activities of jill pomeroy, who is a ward clerk in the emergency room. mr. specter. and what is price exhibit no. ? mr. price. a summary of the activities of david sanders, who is an orderly in the emergency room. mr. specter. and what is price exhibit no. ? mr. price. exhibit is a summary of the activities of tommy dunn, who is an orderly in the emergency room. mr. specter. and what is price exhibit no. ? mr. price. a summary of the activities of joe richards, an orderly in the emergency room. mr. specter. and what is price exhibit no. ? mr. price. exhibit no. is a statement of the activities of jeanette standridge, an r.n. in the emergency room. mr. specter. and what is price exhibit ? mr. price. a summary of the activities of o. p. wright, who is the personnel director and a director of hospital security, and reports from the individual guards under his supervision. mr. specter. and what is price exhibit no. ? mr. price. a summary of the activities of margaret henchliffe, who is assigned to the emergency room. mr. specter. what is price exhibit no. ? mr. price. a summary of the activities of doris nelson, who is the emergency room supervisor. mr. specter. and what is price exhibit no. ? mr. price. a summary of the activities of robert g. holcomb, who is assistant administrator in charge of correlating the professional services of the hospital. mr. specter. what is price exhibit no. ? mr. price. this is a summary of my personal impressions of the events that transpired on november . mr. specter. and what is price exhibit ? mr. price. this is a summary of my activities at the office saturday and sunday, the d and th. mr. specter. are those all of the summaries of those who made reports to you? mr. price. yes; they are. these are primarily the summaries of individuals who were involved in the care of our late president, in the care of governor connally, and in the care of oswald, who were requested to make these summaries to my office as their activities would not normally be stated on patients' charts or in other records of the hospital. mr. specter. i now hand you price exhibit no. and ask you if that is a photostatic copy of the report of dr. charles gregory, after it was altered in a few minor respects as shown on the face of the record? mr. price. well, if i may change this terminology? mr. specter. sure. mr. price. this is a copy of dr. charles gregory's records as it appears in governor connally's charts, which he corrected prior to signing the transcript. what i was trying to say, or wanted to make clear, was that frequently in transcribing, the medical secretaries who transcribe operative records, they make mistakes, and i wanted to be sure that there was no suggestion that the record was altered, when what dr. gregory has done was to write in corrections that were noticed at the time he read it and signed it. mr. specter. i understand it was transcribed, and when he reviewed it before signing it he noticed inaccuracies in the transcription. mr. price. that's right. this is correct. your phraseology is much better than mine. mr. specter. thank you very much, mr. price. mr. price. thank you, sir. mr. specter. that's all. i wanted to put all of these in the record, jack, to show that they are duly authenticated by the appropriate custodian of the records. mr. price. well, i wanted to be sure that there was no hint that the record had been altered here. mr. specter. yes; i understand that. i think you are absolutely right on that. thank you. mr. price. all right. thank you. testimony of malcolm o. couch the testimony of malcolm o. couch was taken at : a.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. david w. belin, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. belin. will you please rise and raise your right hand and be sworn, sir? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you're about to give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. couch. i do. mr. belin. be seated, please. mr. belin. you are malcolm o. couch? mr. couch. that's right. mr. belin. mr. couch, we are taking your deposition here in dallas to record your testimony for the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy--is that correct? mr. couch. that's right, sir. mr. belin. do you request that an attorney be present here to represent you? mr. couch. no. mr. belin. we have written you about the taking of this deposition and i assume that you have waived notice of the taking of the deposition--is that correct? mr. couch. that's right. mr. belin. mr. couch, you have the right to look at the deposition and sign it, or you can follow the general custom and rely on the court reporter and waive the signing of the deposition--whatever you would like to do. if you would like to sign it, you can; if you want to waive signing it, you can also. whatever you want to do. mr. couch. all right. i'll sign it. mr. belin. you want to sign it? mr. couch. yes, sir. mr. belin. all right. mr. couch, where do you live? mr. couch. live oak in dallas. mr. belin. and how old are you? mr. couch. twenty-five. mr. belin. and were you born in texas? mr. couch. yes; born in dallas and raised in dallas. mr. belin. and what is your educational background? did you go through high school? mr. couch. i went to woodrow wilson high school here in dallas, i have a bachelor of arts degree from john brown university; and i will receive a master of theology degree this may from dallas seminary. mr. belin. you then plan, when you receive your master of theology degree, to become a minister? mr. couch. i will be ordained. i don't know if i will have a church or not, but i will be ordained. mr. belin. are you married, mr. couch? mr. couch. yes. mr. belin. any family at all? mr. couch. yes; one boy--since last friday. mr. belin. since last friday? well, congratulations to you. i assume your wife and baby are doing well? mr. couch. yes, sir. mr. belin. what did you major in at college? mr. couch. social science. mr. belin. what is your present occupation, mr. couch? mr. couch. part-time television news cameraman with wfaa-tv in dallas. mr. belin. when you say "part time," do you mean you're going to school part time---- mr. couch. right. mr. belin. and spending part time with wfaa-tv? mr. couch. right. mr. belin. how long have you been employed by wfaa-tv? mr. couch. uh--for years straight. but i worked with them full and part time, i believe, back in--starting in to . mr. belin. and then what happened in ? mr. couch. i went to college. mr. belin. you went to college full time? mr. couch. right. mr. belin. and then you got out in ? mr. couch. i got out in january . mr. belin. january ? mr. couch. yes--and came back to dallas and went into graduate school here. mr. belin. and when you came back to dallas, you went to work with wfaa-tv? mr. couch. no; no. i began going to dallas seminary, but--uh--i worked for keitz & herndon film studios--[spelling] k-e-i-t-z and h-e-r-n-d-o-n. mr. belin. have you had any other jobs since you've gotten out of college other than those? mr. couch. i worked a year for camp elhar, as executive director of the camp. it's a christian camp here in dallas. mr. belin. is this for youngsters? mr. couch. right. mr. belin. boys and girls? mr. couch. right. mr. belin. and when did that employment take place? mr. couch. uh--i believe it was september --and ended in september . i started working for wfaa in march of . and i've been there years. mr. belin. in other words, part of the time while you were working with this camp, you were also part time with wfaa-tv? mr. couch. right. mr. belin. and then when you started to work on your masters in theology, you stopped working? mr. couch. no. i started work on my masters when i came back from college---- mr. belin. oh, i see. mr. couch. in january of . it's a -year course. mr. belin. i see. mr. couch, i want to take you back to november , , and ask you whether or not you were employed by wfaa-tv at that time? mr. couch. yes; i was. mr. belin. in connection with your employment, what is the fact as to whether or not you had anything to do with the coverage of the visit of president kennedy to dallas? mr. couch. yes; i did. mr. belin. could you just state what your duties were and what you did that day? mr. couch. i was assigned to cover the arrival of the president at the airport and to ride in the motorcade through town and, then, to ride with the motorcade of the president back to the airport when he left. mr. belin. now, when you were assigned, were you assigned as a reporter, as a photographer, or in what capacity? mr. couch. as a photographer. mr. belin. would this be moving picture film or still shots, or both? mr. couch. moving only. mr. belin. moving picture film only? mr. couch. yes. mr. belin. were you at love field in dallas when the president arrived? mr. couch. that's right; uh-huh. mr. belin. did you take moving pictures of him there? mr. couch. that's right. mr. belin. then you got in the motorcade? mr. couch. right; uh-huh. mr. belin. and the motorcade proceeded, first, from love field toward downtown dallas--is that correct? mr. couch. that's right. mr. belin. do you remember the route you took through downtown dallas? mr. couch. uh--roughly. it was out through the airport parkway to mockingbird lane to lemmon, down lemmon to turtle creek, down turtle creek to--uh--i'm not sure of those streets. i think mckinney or cedar springs. i'm not sure. mr. belin. well, if you aren't particularly sure--okay. what about when you got downtown to the center of dallas? do you remember what streets you went on? mr. couch. yes. well, we came in on harwood and then turned right on main at the city hall. mr. belin. and then you took main to where? mr. couch. main down to--uh--houston. mr. belin. all right. you were heading, now, west on main down to houston? mr. couch. right. mr. belin. about where in the motorcade was your car? do you remember offhand? mr. couch. uh-uh--roughly--and i'm not sure--the fifth or sixth car back from the lead car. i'm not sure which one. mr. belin. now, do you remember, as you approached houston street on main about how fast the motorcade was going? mr. couch. i would estimate--uh-- miles an hour. the speed had picked up some. everyone gave a sigh a relief that--uh--it was over; and one of the cameramen, i remember, his camera broke and another one was out of film. everyone was relaxed. and--uh--of course, then we turned north on houston, and it was there that we heard the first gunshot. mr. belin. all right. before we get to the first gunshot--do you remember who was riding in the car with you? mr. couch. uh--an best i can, it was jimmy darnell--channel : uh--bob jackson--times herald; jim underwood--krld-tv; and the fellow--uh--mr. dillard--tom dillard--dallas morning news. and the driver of the car; i don't know his name. mr. belin. were you sitting in the front or the back seat? mr. couch. sitting in the back. mr. belin. do you remember anything about your position as to the way you were sitting in the back? mr. couch. yes; i was almost in the middle and sitting on the--it was a convertible--and sitting on the back of the back seat, with my feet on the seat. mr. belin. your feet were on the seat--and you would be sitting on the top of the back seat? mr. couch. that's right. mr. belin. there were three of you in the back? mr. couch. yes; three in the back. mr. belin. and were you in the middle or to the right or to the left? mr. couch. i was about in the middle. mr. belin. all right. now, as you turned north on houston, do you remember about how fast you were going? mr. couch. well, i'd say still that--of course, allowing for the turn--that the pace of the motorcade was about the same. we were clipping along and, as i said, i do have films after we had turned the other corner, and you could still see that the motorcade was moving fairly fast. mr. belin. were there any motorcycle policemen riding alongside the motorcade, that you remember? mr. couch. yes; there were. mr. belin. do you remember the names of any of those people? mr. couch. no; i don't. mr. belin. were they two-wheel or three-wheel motorcycles? mr. couch. two-wheel. mr. belin. was there one riding alongside of your car? mr. couch. uh--he was. i remember distinctly one was on my right going down main. they would jockey from time to time in different positions. as i recall, on houston, i don't remember any beside us on houston. as i say, they would fade back and forth. sometimes they would be; sometimes they wouldn't. mr. belin. all right. now, as you turned onto houston, you said that you heard what you described as a---- mr. couch. it sounded like a motorcycle backfire at first--the first time we heard it--the first shot. mr. belin. do you remember about where your car was at the time you heard the first noise? mr. couch. i would say--uh-- or feet from the turn--from off of main onto houston. mr. belin. fifteen or feet from the turn? mr. couch. we had already completed the turn. mr. belin. after you had completed the turn, then or feet further on you heard the first shot--the first noise? mr. couch. because, i remember i was talking and we were laughing and i was looking back to a fellow on my--that would be on my right--i don't know who it was--we were joking. we had just made the turn. and i heard the first shot. mr. belin. what happened--or what did anyone say? mr. couch. as i recall, nothing--there was no particular reaction; uh--nothing unusual. maybe everybody sort of looked around a little, but didn't think much of it. and--uh--then, in a few seconds, i guess from - seconds later, or even less, we heard the second shot. and then we began to look--uh, not out of thinking necessarily it was a gunshot, but we began to look in front of us--in the motorcade in front of us. and, as i recall, i didn't have any particular fears or feelings at the second shot. by the third shot, i felt that it was a rifle. almost sure it was. and, as i said, the shots or the noises were fairly close together they were fairly even in sound--and--uh, by then, one could recognize, or if he had heard a high-powered rifle, he would feel that it was a high-powered rifle. you would get that impression. mr. belin. do you remember where your vehicle was by the time you heard the third shot? mr. couch. i'd say we were about feet from making--or maybe feet--from making the left-hand turn onto elm. mr. belin. did you hear more than three shots? mr. couch. no. mr. belin. had you heard any noises, what you'd describe like a motorcycle backfiring or firecrackers, prior to the time that you made your turn north onto houston? mr. couch. well, way uptown on main street, a motorcycle did backfire right beside us--and we all jumped and had a good laugh over it. and the three shots sounded, at first--the first impression was that this was another motorcycle backfiring. mr. belin. now, between the first and the second shots, is there anything else you remember doing or you remember hearing or seeing that you haven't related here at this time? mr. couch. nothing unusual between the shots. uh--as i say, the first shot, i had no particular impression; but the second shot, i remember turning--several of us turning--and looking ahead of us. it was unusual for a motorcycle to backfire that close together, it seemed like. and after the third shot, bob jackson, who was, as i recall, on my right, yelled something like, "look up in the window! there's the rifle!" and i remember glancing up to a window on the far right, which at the time impressed me as the sixth or seventh floor, and seeing about a foot of a rifle being--the barrel brought into the window. i saw no one in that window--just a quick -second glance at the barrel. mr. belin. in what building was that? mr. couch. this was the texas book depository building. mr. belin. at the corner of houston and elm in dallas? mr. couch. that's right. mr. belin. you said it was the sixth or the seventh floor. do you know how many floors there are in that building--or did you know at that time? mr. couch. no; i didn't know at that time. mr. belin. did it look like to you he was on the top floor or next to the top floor or the second to the top floor--or---- mr. couch. it looked like it was the top. and when you first glance at the building, you're thrown off a little as to the floors because there's a ridge--uh, it almost looks like a structure added onto the top of the building, about one story above. so, you have to recount. of course, at the time, i wasn't counting, but---- mr. belin. you just remember, to the best of your recollection, that it was either the sixth or seventh floor? mr. couch. that's right. mr. belin. and when you say, "the far right"---- mr. couch. that would be the far east. mr. belin. the far east of what side of the building? mr. couch. the south side of the building. mr. belin. do you remember whether or not that window at which you saw the rifle, you say, being withdrawn--first of all, could you tell it was a rifle? mr. couch. yes, i'd say you could. uh--if a person was just standing on the--as much as i saw, if the factors that did happen, did not happen, you might not say that it was a rifle. in other words, if you just saw an object being pulled back into a window, you wouldn't think anything of it. but with the excitement intense right after that third shot and what bob yelled, my impression was that it was a rifle. mr. belin. did you see anything more than a steel barrel of a rifle? mr. couch. no. mr. belin. could you tell whether or not the rifle had any telescopic sight on it? mr. couch. no. mr. belin. did you see any of the stock of the rifle? mr. couch. no. mr. belin. did you see any person pulling the rifle? mr. couch. no. mr. belin. do you remember whether or not, if you can remember, the window was open or halfway open or what? mr. couch. it was open. to say that it was half or three-quarters open, i wouldn't say. my impression was that it was all the way open--but that was an impression. mr. belin. did you see anything else in the window that you remember--any boxes or anything like that? mr. couch. no; i didn't. mr. belin. you didn't notice whether there was or was not--or do you definitely remember that you did not notice any? mr. couch. no; i didn't notice anything. mr. belin. did you see any other people in any other windows in the building? mr. couch. yes; i recall seeing--uh--some people standing in some of the other windows--about, roughly, third or fourth floor in the middle of the south side. i recall one--it looked like a negro boy with a white t-shirt leaning out one of those windows looking up--up to the windows up above him. mr. belin. uh-huh. is there anything else you can remember about the building? mr. couch. no; that's just about the only impression i had at the moment. mr. belin. now, you related what you heard bob jackson say. did anyone else say anything in the car? mr. couch. no one else said anything, that i recall, about a rifle, or anything. mr. belin. where was the car when you saw this rifle being withdrawn? mr. couch. i'd say about feet before we made the turn onto elm. our car was facing the south side of the building. mr. belin. all right. then what happened after bob jackson made his exclamation and you saw what you just related? mr. couch. well, i picked up my camera. as i recall, i had it in my hand, but it was down leaning against my legs. and i picked it up and made a quick glance at a setting and raised it to my eye. and--uh--you can see from my film that we're just turning the corner. we start the turn and we turn the corner, and you can see people running. as i recall, there's a quick glance at the front entrance of the texas depository book building. you can see people running and you can see about the first three cars, maybe four, in front of me as we complete the turn. and then i took pictures of--uh--a few people on my left and a group, or a sweeping, of the crowd on my right standing on the corner. mr. belin. did you take any pictures of the school book depository building itself? mr. couch. not of the south side at that moment. after we went, say, to feet on down elm, uh--we began to hang on because the driver picked up speed. we got down under the--i think there's three trestles there, three crossings underneath the--uh--at the very bottom of elm street---- mr. belin. is that what they call the triple-underpass? mr. couch. right. and--uh--i think, as i recall, right after we'd made the turn on elm, one or two of the fellows jumped out. but after we got all the way down underneath the three trestles we finally persuaded the driver--who wasn't too anxious to stop--to stop and--uh--we all jumped out. and i ran, i guess it was about yards or a little more back up to the school depository building and took some sweeping pictures of the crowd standing around. i didn't stay there long. mr. belin. did you take any pictures of the depository building entrance? mr. couch. no--uh---- mr. belin. when you came back up there? mr. couch. not with determination. i cannot recall at this moment whether some of my pictures i took when i ran back might have a sweeping shot of the entrance through a wide angle lens. but not with determination. i didn't plan to take pictures of it. mr. belin. would these shots--these wide angle lens shots, if anyone were standing in front of the building or leaving the building at that time, would you be able to identify them, or would they be too far away? mr. couch. they would be too far away. possibly if the frames were blown up, one might determine if someone was standing there--identify someone. mr. belin. about how many minutes after the last shot would you say you came back to take these pictures? mr. couch. well, i'd say it took me--uh--maybe a minute and a half to get back to there after this third shot--because we weren't but seconds getting down underneath that underpass after we made the turn. mr. belin. uh-huh. mr. couch. and--uh--i jumped out and ran back. so, i'd say not over a minute and a half. mr. belin. and then you started taking general sweeping shots of the area? mr. couch. right. mr. belin. were most of the shots directed at people along the side there as to what their reactions were, or were most of the shots directed at the school book depository building? mr. couch. mostly of the people standing around, the policemen and shots such as this. mr. belin. in what direction, generally, would the camera have been pointed, and where would you have been standing when you took these pictures? mr. couch. some of the pictures, i remember, the camera was pointing south--because i was standing on the little knoll which is just at the foot and west of the depository building, where the little park area begins. there's a sidewalk that runs between the book depository property, i would assume and the park. and i was standing on that little sidewalk. mr. belin. and your camera was pointing south? mr. couch. pointing south. that's right. now, after i had taken i don't know how many feet of film of people standing around, i--uh--we--i think there was one or two other fellows with me and who they were, now, i can't remember; they were photographers--we stopped a car that was going by with a boy in it--a young boy of about high school age--and asked him to take us out to parkland. and as the car started off, i started my camera and i have a sweeping shot moving west from about--uh--maybe the middle of the book depository building from ground level on past the park area--a sweeping shot with the car moving. mr. belin. and that's about it insofar as the school book depository building is concerned? mr. couch. well, no. after we got out to stemmons--they'd set up a roadblock just as you entered stemmons expressway. mr. belin. uh-huh. mr. couch. we jumped out of the car and i took, i believe it was, a -inch lens shot of the book depository building of the west wall. mr. belin. of the west wall? mr. couch. yes. mr. belin. not of the front entrance? mr. couch. no. mr. belin. is there any particular reason, mr. couch, why you didn't take your first pictures of the school book depository building itself when you say you saw a rifle being withdrawn? mr. couch. well, uh--as best i can recall, the excitement on the ground of people running and policemen "revving" up their motorcycles--and i have a real nice shot of a policeman running toward me with his pistol drawn--the activity on the ground kept my attention. the reason i did not stay and take pictures of the depository building--which i had originally intended to do when i got out of the motorcade--was that--uh--another cameraman from our station, a. j. l'hoste--[spelling] l-'-h-o-s-t-e--he came running up and--uh--when he ran up, why i said, "you stay here and get shots of the building and go inside--and i'm going to go back--i'm going to follow the president." mr. belin. all right. was he also a moving picture cameraman? mr. couch. yes; right. mr. belin. where was he at the time you made this statement? mr. couch. uh--he was standing on that little sidewalk that runs between the--i met him on the little sidewalk between the book depository property and the beginning of the parkway. mr. belin. that would be the west side of the depository building? mr. couch. that's right; that's right. it's there that i saw the blood on the sidewalk. mr. belin. all right. now, you say you saw blood on the sidewalk, mr. couch? mr. couch. that's right. mr. belin. where was that? mr. couch. this was the little walkway--steps and walkway that leads up to the corner, the west corner, the southwest corner of the book depository building. another little sidewalk, as i recall, turns west and forms that little parkway and archway right next to the book depository building. mr. belin. did this appear to be freshly created blood? mr. couch. yes; right. mr. belin. about how large was this spot of blood that you saw? mr. couch. uh--from to inches in diameter. mr. belin. did people around there say how it happened to get there, or not? mr. couch. no; no one knew. people were watching it--that is, watching it carefully and walking around it and pointing to it. uh--just as i ran up, policemen ran around the west corner and ran--uh--northward on the side of the building. and my first impression was that--uh--that they had chased someone out of the building around that corner, or possibly they had wounded someone. all the policemen had their pistols pulled. and people were pointing back around those shrubs around that west corner and--uh--you would think that there was a chase going on in that direction. again, the reason that i didn't follow was because a. j. had come up, and my first concern was to get back with the president. mr. belin. this pool of blood--about how far would it have been north of the curbline of elm street as elm street goes to the expressway? mr. couch. i'd say--uh--well, from elm street, you mean, itself? mr. belin. yes. this is from that part of elm street that goes into the expressway? mr. couch. i'd say--uh-- to feet, and about feet or to feet from the corner of the texas depository building. mr. belin. it would have been somewhere along that park area there? mr. couch. right. mr. belin. was there anything else you noticed by this pool of blood? mr. couch. no. there were no objects on the ground. we looked for something. we thought there would be something else, but---- mr. belin. there was nothing? mr. couch. huh-uh. mr. belin. now, this a. j.----? mr. couch. l'hoste. that's "l" apostrophe. mr. belin. yes; i have that. i have made a note of the spelling, along with the phonetic sound. do you know if he got any pictures of the south side of the school book depository? mr. couch. no; i don't recall what he got--as i recall--now, i may be wrong, this is a guess--that he did not take any pictures. mr. belin. he did not take any? mr. couch. no. mr. belin. do you know of anyone that took any pictures of the south side of the school book depository building, particularly the front entrance of the building, shortly after the assassination? dr. couch. no; only what i have seen in time magazine. mr. belin. only what you've seen in time magazine? mr. couch. right. mr. belin. now, did you ever know or hear of lee harvey oswald before any of this? mr. couch. no. mr. belin. have you ever met jack ruby? mr. couch. no. mr. belin. there is an fbi report that states that you had heard hearsay statements that someone had seen jack ruby emerge from the rear of the texas school book depository building around that time. did anyone ever tell you that? mr. couch. yes. uh--where i first heard it, i could not now recall; but--uh--the story went that--uh--wes wise, who works for krld---- mr. belin. tv? mr. couch. yes--saw him moments after the shooting--how many moments, i don't know-- minutes, minutes--coming around the side of the building, coming around the east side going south, i presume. mr. belin. did you ever talk to wes wise as to whether or not he actually saw this, or is this just hearsay? mr. couch. no; i didn't. this is just hearsay. mr. belin. let me ask you this: is there any observation, other than hearsay, that you have about this entire sequence of events that you have not related here? mr. couch. no; i can't think of anything. no. mr. belin. in this same fbi report of an interview with you, it states that--and by the way, i did not show this to you when you first chatted about this--is that correct? mr. couch. uh-huh; that's right. mr. belin. there is a statement as to the time sequence--that you heard, first, two loud noises about seconds apart. and you related here that it would have been seconds apart or less. do you remember whether or not at the time you gave your first statement to the fbi you said seconds or would you have said about seconds or would you have said less than seconds--or could this be inaccurate, as sometimes happens? mr. couch. i don't recall now. ten seconds is not a reasonable time; even if i said "about seconds." i know a little bit more about timing than that. we have to time our stories pretty close--and that's a long time. mr. belin. and what's your best recollection now as to the amount of time between shots? mr. couch. well, i would say the longest time would be seconds, but it could be from to . mr. belin. and would this be true between the first and the second shots as well as between the second and third--or would there have been a difference? mr. couch. as i recall, the time sequence between the three were relatively the same. mr. belin. now, mr. couch, shortly before we commenced taking this deposition, you and i met for the first time. is that correct? mr. couch. that's correct. mr. belin. and then we came to this room and we chatted for a few minutes before we started taking a formal deposition. is that correct? mr. couch. that's correct. mr. belin. now, is there anything that we talked about pertaining to the assassination that in any way differs or conflicts with the testimony that you have just given? mr. couch. no; no. mr. belin. what is the fact as to whether or not i questioned you in great detail about each question or whether or not i just asked you to relate the story to me? mr. couch. you asked me to give general highlight impressions before we began. mr. belin. and then, after you gave those to me, we started taking the deposition--is that correct? mr. couch. that's correct. mr. belin. and then you repeated on the deposition what we had talked about--is that right? mr. couch. that's right--in more detail. mr. belin. is there anything else that you can think of at this time which, in any way, would affect the investigation of the assassination of president kennedy? mr. couch. no; i cannot think of anything. mr. belin. well, we want to thank you very much for taking your time to come down here. we know that you're a busy man. we also would like you to convey our thanks to station wfaa-tv for allowing you to come down here. we appreciate it very much. mr. couch. thank you, sir. mr. belin. mr. couch, we're going back on the record again. you're still under oath--and i'm not quite sure whether i asked this question, but i had better ask it again. when you saw this rifle being withdrawn. about how much of it could you see at first? mr. couch. i'd say just about a foot of it. mr. belin. and in what direction was the barrel pointing at the time you saw it being withdrawn? mr. couch. approximately a ° angle westward--which would be pointing down elm street. mr. belin. down elm street as it goes into the expressway there? mr. couch. that's right. mr. belin. and when you say " ° angle" would that be up or down, or are you referring to the angle of incline, or the angle of west and south? mr. couch. the angle of incline--from a horizontal position. mr. belin. all right. so, you would estimate about a ° angle downward pointing in what would be a southwesterly direction? mr. couch. uh--westerly direction. from looking straight on at the building, one could not tell the--uh--angle, whether it was more southward or not. in other words, something sticking out the building, i couldn't tell. it was not--it did not appear to me that it was sticking straight out the window, so to speak. mr. belin. yes. is there anything else that you noticed about the gun? mr. couch. no. mr. belin. all right. thank you. i just wanted to make sure i got that on the record. testimony of tom c. dillard the testimony of tom c. dillard was taken at : a.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. joseph a. ball, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. ball. state your name. mr. dillard. tom c. dillard. mr. ball. will you stand and raise your right hand, please? mr. dillard (complying). mr. ball. do you solemnly swear the testimony given before this commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. dillard. i do. mr. ball. my name is joseph a. ball. i am staff counsel for the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy. you have already been requested to be present have you not---- mr. dillard. by letter; yes. mr. ball. by letter which you received last week? mr. dillard. yes, sir. mr. ball. what is your occupation? mr. dillard. i am a photographer. mr. ball. i might state the purpose of questioning you is to ask you questions as to any knowledge you might have as to the facts concerning the assassination of president kennedy on november , , at dallas, tex. mr. dillard. i understand. my occupation is journalist; i am chief photographer of the dallas morning news, do some aviation writing but my primary job is head of the photographic department and, of course, i do outside work for the paper on photographic work. mr. ball. how old are you? mr. dillard. i'm . mr. ball. what has been your general education? mr. dillard. high school, very few college courses. mr. ball. what? mr. dillard. high school and very few college courses. mr. ball. where did you go to school? mr. dillard. i didn't go to school. i graduated fort worth, from the old central high school, went to the officer candidate school in the military and air university. mr. ball. how long have you been with the paper? mr. dillard. the dallas news since and i was with the star telegram, went to work in . mr. ball. have you been a photographer for the papers all these years? mr. dillard. well, yes; of course, the first years, when i was started at the age of , i was a copy boy and did various reporting and whatever we could do on the paper. i was when i started. mr. ball. on november , you were in the motorcade who followed president kennedy, weren't you? mr. dillard. that is correct. i understand our car was about number six in the line. mr. ball. did you meet the president at love field? mr. dillard. that's right. mr. ball. and then you rode in the motorcade from love field into dallas? mr. dillard. right. mr. ball. who was in your car? mr. dillard. i remember jim underwood, he's an announcer for krld-tv and cameraman, acting as a cameraman that day; and bob jackson of the times-herald, cameraman; and couch with our tv station, channel , and did you have information his name is couch? mr. ball. that's right; and the man that drove---- mr. dillard. channel --darnell, i think his name is, and the driver of the car which i don't believe i remember his name. it was a chevrolet convertible. mr. ball. your car was about sixth, was it? mr. dillard. i believe. mr. ball. from the president's car? mr. dillard. from the president's car. we lost our position out at the airport. i understood we were supposed to have been quite a bit closer. we were assigned as the prime photographic car which, as you probably know, normally a truck precedes the president on these things and certain representatives of the photographic press ride with the truck. in this case, as you know, we didn't have any and this car that i was in was to take any photographs which was of spot-news nature. mr. ball. as you turned from main street onto houston, was the president's car in sight at that time? mr. dillard. no; and the whole parade, the whole trip to town, i could only distinguish the president's car on very few occasions in high rises in the ground, when we got on hills. it was difficult because the people in the cars ahead of me were sitting on the backs of cars which pretty well covered the president's car for me. we had a very, very poor view of the president's car at any time from the time the parade started. mr. ball. can you tell me whether or not the president's car had made the turn off houston street when your car turned north on houston? mr. dillard. it had. mr. ball. it had? mr. dillard. no; i won't say it had. i think it had because, like i say, i could never see the car very well. i believe it had. mr. ball. where were you sitting in the car? mr. dillard. i was sitting in the right front. mr. ball. who was in the front seat with you? mr. dillard. oh, i don't remember; i think jackson was sitting beside me--no; i believe jackson was sitting in the back. i don't remember what our locations were. mr. ball. but you know you were in the right front? mr. dillard. yeah. mr. ball. did you hear something unusual as you were driving north on houston? mr. dillard. yes; i heard an explosion which i made the comment that i believe, in my memory, i believe i said, "my god, they've thrown a torpedo" and why i said "torpedo", i don't know. if you wish, i'll go ahead---- mr. ball. go ahead with your story. mr. dillard. well, then i later estimated, immediately later, estimated, oh, , about or seconds, another explosion and my comment was, "no, it's heavy rifle fire," and i remember very distinctly i said, "it's very heavy rifle fire." mr. ball. how many explosions did you hear? mr. dillard. i heard three--the three approximately equally spaced. mr. ball. what is the best estimate of the position of your car with reference to the turn at main and houston when you heard the first explosion? mr. dillard. perhaps, oh, just a few feet around the corner and it seems we had slowed a great deal. it seems that our car had slowed down so that we were moving rather slowly and perhaps just passed the turn when i heard the first explosion. mr. ball. did you hear anyone in your car say anything? mr. dillard. well, after the third shot i know my comment was, "they killed him." i don't know why i said that but jackson--there was some running comment about what can we do or where is it coming from and we were all looking. we had an absolutely perfect view of the school depository from our position in the open car, and bob jackson said, "there's a rifle barrel up there." i said, "where?" i had my camera ready. he said, "it's in that open window." of course, there were several open windows and i scanned the building. mr. ball. which building? mr. dillard. the school depository. and at the same time i brought my camera up and i was looking for the window. now, this was after the third shot and jackson said, "there's the rifle barrel up there," and then he said it was the second from the top in the right-hand side, and i swung to it and there was two figures below, and i just shot with one camera, -mm. lens on a -mm. camera which is approximately a two times daily photo twice normal lens and a wide angle on a -mm. which took in a considerable portion of the building and i shot those pictures in rapid sequence with the two cameras. mr. ball. you shot how many pictures? mr. dillard. two pictures. mr. ball. with one camera or two different cameras? mr. dillard. two different cameras--one daily photo, not extreme daily photo, but twice the normal lens. mr. ball. you say your cameras were ready? how were they ready? mr. dillard. hung around my neck and held in my hand. mr. ball. you brought them up and focused and shot? mr. dillard. well, on the whole ride, i had been watching the tops of buildings and watching for any signs or anything unusual which, of course, is a newsman's chore on a parade like that. we were badly--in a very bad position from our viewpoint to cover anything on the parade, so we were all, as any news photographer is, rather tense when he is covering a presidential or an affair of that sort and he is trying to get whatever pictures possible and watching for every possibility, and so we all tried for a number of things. incidentally, the only unusual thing in the parade that i noticed was the president--i understand the president stopped his car at lemmon and loma alta, which is out in the near suburbs of dallas, as i understand, at the request of a sign that said, "mr. president, stop and shake hands with us." i jumped out of the car--it was a convertible with the top down--and tried to run to get pictures of it but by that time the parade started and i was unable to get up that far. mr. ball. when you shot these two pictures of the texas school book depository building, how far were you from the building, would you say? mr. dillard. from the window or from the---- mr. ball. from the building. that would be, i suppose, a measurement along the street. mr. dillard. i would say it was just before we reached the corner of elm and houston streets. mr. ball. you were south of elm and houston, were you? mr. dillard. yes. mr. ball. about how far? well, perhaps as a photographer, you can give me a more accurate estimate this way; tell me how far you think your camera was from the upper windows when you shot that picture? mr. dillard. oh, it wasn't over , yards. mr. ball. did you see anything in the windows? mr. dillard. no. mr. ball. you didn't see a rifle barrel? mr. dillard. no. mr. ball. but you did see some figures or forms in the window? mr. dillard. only in the windows which was the windows below. mr. ball. how many forms did you see in the windows below? mr. dillard. i saw two men in the windows, at least the arched windows. i saw them in my picture. i was making the picture my eyes were covering. mr. ball. you saw them as you were taking the picture? mr. dillard. i may have; i don't know. mr. ball. do you remember if you saw two or three figures? mr. dillard. i don't remember. mr. ball. but you did see some figures and you cannot be accurate? mr. dillard. right. mr. ball. your car stopped where? mr. dillard. i remember, we were stopping and starting down houston street or moving very slowly while this shooting was going on, and i know we came around the corner of houston and elm and saw people lying on the ground down the hill on the sides of the lawns there in the plaza, and i jumped out of my car. the car stopped then and i got out and i don't know what happened. mr. ball. what did you do after you go out? mr. dillard. well, i made a picture of cars moving into the sun under the underpass, somebody chasing the car and i looked at the situation in that area and saw absolutely nothing of the presidential car or anything that appeared worth photographing to me at the time. mr. ball. how long did you stay around there? mr. dillard. perhaps minutes. mr. ball. then where did you go? mr. dillard. another car, chevrolet convertible, of the party came by with, i assume, dignitaries in it and i jumped on the back of it and we started--i told them, of course, who i was and we started out stemmons expressway toward the trade mart and i explained to them what i knew and tried to hold onto the back of that car at rather high speed. i never saw the presidential car. mr. ball. do you have any idea or any impression as to the source of the explosions--what direction it was coming from? mr. dillard. yes, i felt that, at the time, i felt like it was coming from a north area and quite close, and i might qualify i have had a great deal of experience. i am a gun nut and have a great number of high-powered rifles at home, so i know a little bit about guns. mr. ball. you have had experience with rifles? mr. dillard. yes, i have shot a great deal, so i am familiar with the noise that they made in that area. we were getting a sort of reverberation which made it difficult to pinpoint the actual direction but my feeling was that it was coming into my face and, in that i was facing north toward the school depository--i might add that i very definitely smelled gun powder when the car moved up at the corner. mr. ball. you did? mr. dillard. i very definitely smelled it. mr. ball. by that you mean when you moved up to the corner of elm and houston? mr. dillard. yes; now, there developed a very brisk north wind. mr. ball. that was in front of the texas school book depository? mr. dillard. yes, it's rather close--the corner is rather close. i mentioned it, i believe, that it was rather surprising to me. mr. ball. who did you mention it to? mr. dillard. bob, i'm sure. mr. ball. bob jackson? mr. dillard. yeah, bob and i were talking about it. mr. ball. you developed your pictures, didn't you? mr. dillard. i don't remember. mr. ball. or did you turn them over? mr. dillard. i printed them. mr. ball. you printed them? mr. dillard. yes, i don't remember whether i developed that roll or not. i may have. mr. ball. did you do that the same day? mr. dillard. yes, immediately thereafter, shortly after i came back from the hospital. mr. ball. then you examined the pictures that you had taken--those two pictures you had taken? mr. dillard. yes. mr. ball. i have---- mr. dillard. there was never any question in my mind that there was more than or less than three explosions which were all heavy rifle fire, in my opinion, of the same rifle. the same rifle fired three shots. mr. ball. do you still have the two negatives? mr. dillard. yes; of these [indicating]? mr. ball. yes. mr. dillard. yes. mr. ball. you have them in your possession? mr. dillard. at the dallas news; they're in a box kept locked in the managing editor's office. mr. ball. suppose we could do this. i have pictures here which you can identify but perhaps it might be a little closer to the source if we do this. could you make me up two prints for your deposition from those negatives? mr. dillard. well, i guess so. mr. ball. off the record. (off-record discussion.) mr. ball. you will endorse your signature on each copy as being a print made from your negatives, is that satisfactory? mr. dillard. suits me; i could get it notarized. mr. ball. you don't need to do that because we can attach it as a copy to this deposition. mr. dillard. i could sign these; of course, you want that other. mr. ball. we have two here. first of all, you made one picture with a wide lens? mr. dillard. yes. mr. ball. and you made a picture with a short lens? mr. dillard. long lens--short and wide are the same. mr. ball. a short, wide lens and one long lens. now, i show you two pictures and i mark one "a" and mark one "b." look them over and tell me whether or not those are prints from the picture that you made that day. mr. dillard. these are prints from one of the negatives i made on november . mr. ball. and then you will furnish us two prints, one from each negative which we will mark as "c" and "d" and you will initial them, is that correct? mr. dillard. that is correct. mr. ball. do you mind initialing the "a" and "b" and we will make it part of this deposition--just on the back? mr. dillard. one of them will be the same picture as these two. these two are prints from one of my negatives. mr. ball. that will be all right. mr. dillard. i have another negative. mr. ball. which you will make a print of? mr. dillard. if you wish. mr. ball. make up a print from each negative. now, you made a statement to agent keutzer of the federal bureau of investigation on the th of november , didn't you, or thereabouts? mr. dillard. yes. mr. ball. and at that time, you told him that you first heard a noise which sounded like a torpedo, didn't you? mr. dillard. yes, i said---- mr. ball. off the record. (off-record discussion.) mr. ball. did you tell him that hearing another sound similar to that, you realized it was gunfire? mr. dillard. yes. mr. ball. and you heard the third shot. now, the statement says that upon hearing the third shot, the car in which he was riding was stopped almost in front of the texas school book depository building. mr. dillard. my car? mr. ball. yes. mr. dillard. yes. mr. ball. did you hear bob jackson of the dallas times-herald exclaim "i see a rifle; it's up in the open window". mr. dillard. yes. mr. ball. and jackson pointed to the texas school book depository located at elm and houston streets? mr. dillard. that's right. mr. ball. and you looked up at the building and you did not see a rifle protruding from any window? mr. dillard. i did not see a rifle. mr. ball. but you did take two photographs? mr. dillard. correct. mr. ball. and you still have those negatives? mr. dillard. that's true. mr. ball. were you ever in a position where you could see anyone leave the texas school book depository building? mr. dillard. briefly, only in the very short time, perhaps a period of or minutes, that i was in the general area. after the third shot, i was probably not there over or minutes. mr. ball. did you see anybody leave the building? mr. dillard. to my knowledge; no. mr. ball. i think that's everything. will you waive signature on this? mr. dillard. sure. mr. ball. thank you, sir. mr. dillard. that's all right, glad to help. testimony of james robert underwood the testimony of james robert underwood was taken at : a.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. joseph a. ball, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. ball. mr. underwood, will you stand up and be sworn? (complying.) mr. ball. do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. underwood. i do. mr. ball. will you state your name, please? mr. underwood. my name is james robert underwood. mr. ball. your occupation? mr. underwood. i am the assistant news director of krld-tv and radio in dallas. mr. ball. on november , , you were in the motorcade, the presidential motorcade? mr. underwood. yes, sir; i was three cars behind the president. mr. ball. who was in the car with you? mr. underwood. there was a photographer from channel , wbap-tv, whose name is james darnell, and a photographer from the dallas morning news--i know his name but i can't think of it right now---- mr. ball. tom dillard? mr. underwood. yes; tom dillard, and a photographer from the dallas times-herald whose name is bob jackson, also a photographer from wfaa-tv and i do not know his name. i heard it but i don't remember it. mr. ball. there was a driver, also? mr. underwood. yes; the driver i later found out was a member of the department of public safety. mr. ball. you are a photographer, also? mr. underwood. yes, sir; i wear many hats in my business but one of which is news photographer. mr. ball. did you have your camera with you that day? mr. underwood. yes, sir; i did. mr. ball. what is your experience; where were you born; where did you go to school; how did you get to get the experience that fit you for your present job? just in your own words, tell me something about yourself. mr. underwood. i was born in oklahoma city, okla., in ; i served in the marine corps from until , almost years, and after that i attended the university of tulsa and after that i worked--i began working in radio as an announcer while i was going to college. when i got out of college, i went to corpus christi, tex. that was about and i became program director and news director of a radio station in corpus christi and i stayed there until when i went to a station in jacksonville, fla., where i was also program director and news director, and in , i came to dallas, and i worked for a year and a half for wfaa-tv as an announcer, then i freelanced in television and radio from september of until november--and i have to count for a minute-- years this november that would be until november when i went to work for krld-tv and radio news and shortly thereafter i became assistant news director but i earned part of my living, i still freelance in television which is all freelance in television and i have a regular job which entails every type of reporting, including photography which i enjoy doing. mr. ball. on the day of the assassination, you were in the motorcade with these men you mentioned and you think your car was third behind the presidential car? mr. underwood. yes; and i thought it was six or seven. i shot sound on film of the president's arrival and vice president's arrival at dallas love field the morning he came in on the d and then i took off the rather cumbersome sound on film equipment and took my hand camera because i had an assigned place in the motorcade and i could not tell out there because of the many people i could not tell what position we were in. i could not see that far ahead to determine exactly where we were in the motorcade, although i knew we were in the front of it. the motorcade stopped once on the way downtown, this was briefly, and i jumped over this side--we were in a convertible--and ran toward the president's car and i was aware of the crowd and the motorcade immediately started and i ran back to the convertible, not wanting to be left, and looking afterward at the films that i took there, i could then count the cars there. i realized we were three behind him, according to my movies we took. when we turned onto main street downtown and headed west toward the scene of where the assassination took place, either the regulator or the mainspring in my camera broke and i was without a camera. i knew that we had two men, at least two men on the parade route who were on the street and would be filming the motorcade as we came by and i hoped to exchange my broken camera for one of theirs because i knew i could make more use of the one that would operate. the only problem was we went down main street so rapidly it would have been impossible to get anything from someone standing on the street and at main and record one of our men was stationed and i tried to holler at him my camera was broken and i wanted to switch and i started to and there was no point in it because we passed there that rapidly. i thought it was the fastest motorcade that passed through a crowd; this was really moving, as far as i was concerned. then, we came to the scene where the shots were fired. do you want me to go on? mr. ball. from the time you turned, tell me what you observed after you made the turn at main and houston to drive north on houston. mr. underwood. after we turned onto houston street, the car i was in was about, as far as i can remember, about in the middle of the block or a little bit north of the center of the block, which is a short block, when i heard the first shot. mr. ball. between main and elm? mr. underwood. yes; between main and elm, closer to the elm intersection, elm and houston intersection, when i heard the first shot fired. i thought it was an explosion. i have heard many rifles fired but it did not sound like a rifle to me. evidently must have been a reverberation from the buildings or something. i believe i said to one of the other fellows it sounds like a giant firecracker and the car i was in was about in the intersection of elm and houston when i heard a second shot fired and moments later a third shot fired and i realized that they were by that time, the last two shots, i realized they were coming from overhead. mr. ball. you realized they were coming from overhead and that would be from what source? mr. underwood. that would be from the texas school book depository building. mr. ball. it sounded like they were coming from that direction? mr. underwood. yes, sir; the last two. now, the first was just a loud explosion but it sounded like a giant firecracker or something had gone off. by the time the third shot was fired, the car i was in stopped almost through the intersection in front of the texas school book depository building and i leaped out of the car before the car stopped. bob jackson from the herald said he thought he saw a rifle in the window and i looked where he pointed and i saw nothing. below the window he was pointing at, i saw two colored men leaning out there with their heads turned toward the top of the building, trying, i suppose, to determine where the shots were coming from. mr. ball. what words did you hear bob jackson say? mr. underwood. i don't know that i can remember exactly except i did hear him say words to the effect that "i saw a rifle" and i looked at that instant and i saw nothing myself. if he saw a rifle, i did not. mr. ball. at that point when you looked, where was your car? mr. underwood. our car was in the intersection, in the intersection of elm and houston street. mr. ball. had it made the turn yet? mr. underwood. it had partially made the turn or had just begun to make the turn. frankly, i was looking up and around and i saw at the same time people falling on the ground down the street toward the underpass and my first impression was some of these people falling to the ground had been shot. mr. ball. did your car stop? mr. underwood. our car stopped and the minute it stopped i leaped out of the car. mr. ball. where was your car when it stopped? mr. underwood. right in the intersection, perhaps just past the intersection, turned onto elm. mr. ball. did you get out before the car parked along the curb? mr. underwood. yes, sir; the minute it stopped, i leaped over the side. mr. ball. what did you do? mr. underwood. i left my camera in the car, the camera that was broken, and ran as fast as i could back toward the man we had at record and main in order to get a camera. there i was without a camera; the only thought i had was to get a camera. mr. ball. did you get one? mr. underwood. yes; i ran the full block back to main street and our man there, name of sanderson, was running down main toward houston. he was running to meet me, although he didn't know what was happening and that my camera was broke. suddenly, motorcycles and sirens had been turned on police cars and were all headed toward main. i met him just around the corner on main past houston and grabbed his camera and said, "someone had been shooting at the president." i didn't know this but i assumed it happened. i took his camera and got back to the scene. when i got back to the scene, most of the people in the area were running up the grassy slope toward the railway yards just behind the texas school book depository building. actually, i assumed, which is the only thing i could do, i assumed perhaps who had fired the shots had run in that direction. i recognized at least a dozen deputy sheriffs running also in that area--it seems to me that many, and i ran up there and took some films and they were running through the railroad yard and they very quickly found nothing and i was having, frankly, a hard time breathing because i had done more running in those few minutes than i am used to doing. i gasped out to a couple people--i don't know who they are--that i thought the shots came from that building and one of the fellows in the car with me said they had seen a rifle barrel in the building. mr. ball. this group of men were deputy sheriffs? mr. underwood. for the most part, yes; i don't think i could recall--lemmy lewis i see in my mind, but i am not sure lemmy was there. this was a kaleidoscope of things happening. in my business, you need to make a quick appraisal of what is happening if you are going to shoot pictures of it. i was confused and out of breath and unbelieving of what happened. mr. ball. where did you go from the grassy slopes? mr. underwood. i went from the railroad yards--actually, i was back in the track area--i went immediately with these men at a run to the texas school depository. mr. ball. which entrance? mr. underwood. the front entrance. mr. ball. on elm? mr. underwood. yes; and i ran down there and i think i took some pictures of some men--yes, i know i did, going in and out of the building. by that time there was one police officer there and he was a three-wheeled motorcycle officer and a little colored boy whose last name i remember as eunice. mr. ball. euins? mr. underwood. it may have been euins. it was difficult to understand when he said his name. he was telling the motorcycle officer he had seen a colored man lean out of the window upstairs and he had a rifle. he was telling this to the officer and the officer took him over and put him in a squad car. by that time, motorcycle officers were arriving, homicide officers were arriving and i went over and asked this boy if he had seen someone with a rifle and he said "yes, sir." i said, "were they white or black?" he said, "it was a colored man." i said, "are you sure it was a colored man?" he said, "yes sir" and i asked him his name and the only thing i could understand was what i thought his name was eunice. mr. ball. was he about ? mr. underwood. i couldn't tell his age; looked to me to be younger. i would have expected him to be about or years old. mr. ball. then what did you do? mr. underwood. i stayed in front of the building; actually, i stayed in the intersection of elm and houston and took movies of police arriving and fire--and i think some fire equipment arrived on the scene, one firetruck or two firetrucks, i'm not sure, and i just shot some general film on the area. i have since searched that film to see if i could see any face in it that would have been important to this. mr. ball. leaving the building? mr. underwood. yes; but i haven't found any except that of officers arriving and just people generally in the area; none of it, though, that you could--i spent several days at this, i guess during january when things had calmed down. i was on the side street of the building, around the front of the building and in the intersection for the next minutes, then i went across the street to the courthouse and phoned several news reports to c.b.s. in new york and described what was taking place in the building at that time. there were firemen with ladders in front of the building and officers running in and out and they cordoned off the building and kept the spectators out of the building, but there was quite a time lapse between the time the shots were fired and the time anyone checked the building. the main effort was to run to the railroad yards instead of the school book depository. mr. ball. i think that's all. mr. underwood, this will be typed up and you can waive signature if you wish or you can sign it if you wish. mr. underwood. i don't have to sign it. i will waive signature. testimony of james n. crawford the testimony of james n. crawford was taken at : a.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. joseph a. ball, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. ball. mr. crawford, i'm joe ball and this is lillian johnson. mr. crawford. glad to know you. i know lillian johnson. how is irving, by the way? mr. ball. will you stand up, please, and hold up your right hand? mr. crawford (complying). mr. ball. do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before this commission shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. crawford. i swear. mr. ball. my name is joe ball. i'm staff counsel with the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy and i have been authorized to question you and ask you to give us such information as you have as to the facts of the assassination and those things that you observed on november , . will you state your name for the court reporter? mr. crawford. my name is james n. crawford. mr. ball. what is your occupation? mr. crawford. i am deputy district clerk. mr. ball. you received a request from the commission in writing, did you not, requesting you to give this testimony? mr. crawford. i did. mr. ball. you received it some time last week? mr. crawford. actually, it came to the office saturday. i did not receive it until monday. mr. ball. that will be monday, march ? mr. crawford. yes. mr. ball. where were you born? mr. crawford. i was born in greenville, texas. mr. ball. what was your general education? mr. crawford. high school in greenville, texas, and college at texas a. & m. mr. ball. what did you do after that, just a general sketch of some of your occupations? mr. crawford. i worked for the texas company in new orleans and have been in and out of the furniture business and in the oil business here in dallas until i went with the county. mr. ball. how long have you been with the county of dallas? mr. crawford. about years. mr. ball. you are a deputy county clerk there? mr. crawford. district clerk. mr. ball. on november , , about around o'clock or so, where were you? mr. crawford. i was in the office of the district clerk. mr. ball. did you later leave and go out into the street? mr. crawford. about : , we left the office and went out to the corner of houston and elm. mr. ball. you went with whom? mr. crawford. mary ann mitchell. mr. ball. she works in the office with you? mr. crawford. she is in the office with me. mr. ball. what is her occupation in the office? mr. crawford. assistant to the district clerk. (at this point, mr. james underwood enters the hearing.) mr. ball. where is your office located in dallas? mr. crawford. it's located on the ground floor of the records building. mr. ball. what street? mr. crawford. that's record and elm--that's commerce, isn't it, jim? mr. underwood. what's that? mr. crawford. what is the street just north of the courthouse--that's elm. mr. underwood. it's bordered by elm, main, record, and houston. mr. ball. you are located on the corner of---- mr. crawford. elm. mr. ball. elm and---- mr. crawford. and record. mr. ball. and record, and then you walked which direction? mr. crawford. well, actually, the courthouse is--i suppose our office would be considered on elm and houston. mr. ball. when you left your office, you walked on what street? mr. crawford. walked on elm to houston, rather than record. mr. ball. in other words, you walked west on elm towards houston? mr. crawford. right. mr. ball. to what corner of elm and houston? mr. crawford. that would be the corner of the courthouse. do you want the direction of the intersection? mr. ball. yes, where was it? southeast, northwest corner of elm? mr. crawford. it's the northwest corner of the courthouse. mr. ball. the northwest corner of the courthouse--it's the southeast corner of the intersection? mr. crawford. southeast corner of the intersection. mr. ball. where were you when you watched the president pass? mr. crawford. i was at that location. mr. ball. which corner of the intersection? mr. crawford. the southeast corner of the intersection. mr. ball. where was the texas school book depository building from where you were standing? mr. crawford. it would be on the northwest corner of the intersection. mr. ball. directly across? mr. crawford. yes; right. mr. ball. did you have a good view at that point of the south exposure of the texas school book depository? mr. crawford. i had a very good angle. mr. ball. did you see the president's car pass? mr. crawford. i did. mr. ball. and just tell me in your own words what you observed after that? mr. crawford. as i observed the parade, i believe there was a car leading the president's car, followed by the president's car and followed, i suppose, by the vice president's car and, in turn, by the secret service in a yellow closed sedan. the doors of the sedan were open. it was after the secret service sedan had gone around the corner that i heard the first report and at that time i thought it was a backfire of a car but, in analyzing the situation, it could not have been a backfire of a car because it would have had to have been the president's car or some car in the cavalcade there. the second shot followed some seconds, a little time elapsed after the first one, and followed very quickly by the third one. i could not see the president's car---- mr. ball. at that time? mr. crawford. that's right; i couldn't even see the secret service car, at least i wasn't looking for it. as the report from the third shot sounded, i looked up. i had previously looked around to see if there was somebody shooting firecrackers to see if i could see a puff of smoke, and after i decided it wasn't a backfire from an automobile and as the third report was sounded, i looked up and from the far east corner of the sixth floor i saw a movement in the only window that was open on that floor. it was an indistinct movement. it was just barely a glimpse. mr. ball. which window? mr. crawford. that would be the far east window---- mr. ball. on the---- mr. crawford. on the sixth floor of the texas school book depository. i turned to miss mitchell and made the statement that if those were shots they came from that window. that was based mainly on the fact of the quick movement observed in the window right at the conclusion of the report. mr. ball. could you give me any better description than just a movement? could you use any other words to describe what you saw by way of color or size of what you saw moving? mr. crawford. if i were asked to describe it, i would say that it was a profile, somewhat from the waist up, but it was a very quick movement and rather indistinct and it was very light colored. it was either light colored or it was reflection from the sun. when the gun was found, or when a gun was found, i asked the question if it was white, simply because if it was a gun i saw, then it was either white or it was reflecting the sun so it would appear white or light colored. mr. ball. did you see any boxes in that window? mr. crawford. yes, directly behind the window, oh possibly three feet or less, there were boxes stacked up behind the window and i believe it was the only place in the building that i observed where boxes were stacked just like that. mr. ball. did you see any boxes in the window? mr. crawford. no, i didn't see any. there wasn't any boxes in the window. mr. ball. did you stay there at that point very long, the southeast corner? mr. crawford. no; as i said. i couldn't observe the president's car and i had no actual knowledge that he had been shot, so realizing that we should get the information almost immediately from the radio which had been covering the motorcade--we had been listening to it prior to going on the street--i thought our best information would come from that, so we went, miss mitchell and i, went back into the office. i have no way of knowing the time. i would say it was a minute or--i would say a minute. mr. ball. after you heard the shots, did you return to the office? mr. crawford. yes. mr. ball. the movement that you saw that you describe as something light and perhaps a profile from the waist up, you mean it looked like a profile of a person? mr. crawford. that was--i had a hard time describing that. when i saw it, i automatically in my mind came to the conclusion that it was a person having moved out of the window. now, to say that it was a brown haired, light skinned individual, i could not do that. mr. ball. could you tell whether it was a man or woman? mr. crawford. i could not. mr. ball. you made a report to the federal bureau of investigation on the th of january? mr. crawford. yes. mr. ball. before i ask you about your report, did you have any impression as to the source of the sound, from what direction the sound came, the sound of the explosions? mr. crawford. yes; i do. as i mentioned before, the sound, i thought it was a backfire in the cavalcade from down the hill, down the hill toward the underpass. mr. ball. you mean west on elm? mr. crawford. yes, and that was a little confusing and in analyzing it later, evidently the report that i heard, and probably a lot of other people, the officers or the fbi, it evidently was a sound that was reflected by the underpass and therefore came back. it did not sound to me, ever, as i remember, the high-powered rifle sounding. it was not the sharp crack. mr. ball. what caused you to look up at the texas school book depository building? mr. crawford. the sound had to be coming from somewhere; the noise was being made at some place, so i didn't see anyone shooting firecrackers or anything else and i thought "this idiot surely shouldn't do such a thing," but if they were, where were they, and if they were shots, where were they coming from, and that caused me to search the whole area on houston street and in front of the texas depository on elm street and then up and that's how i happened to be looking up at the time, rather than observing things in the street, probably. mr. ball. did you ever see any smoke? mr. crawford. no, sir; i did not. mr. ball. in your remark to mary ann mitchell, did you say "if those were shots, they came from that window"? mr. crawford. yes. mr. ball. that is what you reported to the fbi agent, also? mr. crawford. yes, i suppose; at that time, i was still not absolutely sure that they were shots and that's why i said if they were shots. i was basing that, i am sure i was basing that mainly on the fact of this quick movement that i observed. in other words, if i were firing the shots, i would have jumped back immediately at the conclusion of them. mr. ball. later on, did you go back in the street and talk to someone? mr. crawford. yes. mr. ball. did you talk to a deputy sheriff? mr. crawford. allen swett. mr. ball. what did you tell him? mr. crawford. i told him to have the men search the boxes directly behind this window that was open on the sixth floor--the window in the far east corner. mr. ball. did you tell him anything of what you had seen? mr. crawford. i don't think so. i think i was so amazed that i could walk across the street and walk up to this building that was supposedly under surveillance and the man had not been--i say "the man"--there had not been anyone apprehended. mr. ball. how long was it after you heard the shots that you walked up to allen swett and talked to him? mr. crawford. my guess is it could have been anywhere from - minutes. my guess would be around - minutes. mr. ball. in the statement you made to the fbi agent, he reports you said you walked to the texas school book depository where you contacted deputy sheriff allen swett and advised him of the movement you had seen in the sixth floor window? mr. crawford. i must have said something about the movement. i did tell him to search those windows, i think. mr. ball. could you in your own words give us your memory of what you told allen swett? mr. crawford. i would probably have said, as i remember it, that to have the men search--have someone search the boxes directly behind that window. i had seen some movement directly after the shots. that was, i think, all i said. i did not--there was no conversation and at the conclusion of my statement, he directed several men up there. mr. ball. did you ever go in the building yourself? mr. crawford. i did not and i still have not been in there. mr. ball. i think that's all, mr. crawford. thanks very much. mr. crawford. thank you, mr. ball. mr. ball. incidentally, will you waive signature on this? mr. crawford. yes; i will. testimony of mary ann mitchell the testimony of mary ann mitchell was taken at : p.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. joseph a. ball, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. ball. miss mitchell, will you stand up, please, and be sworn; hold up your right hand. (complying.) mr. ball. do you solemnly swear the testimony you will be giving before this commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? miss mitchell. yes; i do. mr. ball. will you state your name, please? miss mitchell. mary ann mitchell. mr. ball. what is your occupation? miss mitchell. i am a deputy district clerk. mr. ball. for dallas county? miss mitchell. for the county of dallas. mr. ball. what kind of work is that; do you work in the court? miss mitchell. no; i work in the main office of the clerk of the district courts. mr. ball. tell me something about your background--where were you born, where were you raised, what schools did you go to? miss mitchell. i was born in roanoke, tex., which is in denton county, about miles north of here; graduated from high school in denton in . i went to college for years at arlington and moved to dallas and came to work here in june of . i have held several secretarial and stenographic type jobs before i went to work for the county of dallas and that was in and i have been there since then. mr. ball. since , you have been with the county with the clerk of the district court of dallas county? miss mitchell. yes, sir. mr. ball. on the d of november , about noontime, where were you? miss mitchell. about noontime? mr. ball. yes. miss mitchell. i was in the office about noon. mr. ball. working? miss mitchell. working, which is in the basement of the records building. mr. ball. did you leave there some time, leave the office to see the parade that morning? miss mitchell. yes, as a matter of fact, i went up to see the parade since we are in the basement. mr. ball. what time did you leave the building? miss mitchell. at possibly : or : , something like that. mr. ball. whom were you with? miss mitchell. i left the office with jim crawford. mr. ball. where did you go? miss mitchell. i went out onto the street and down to the corner of the building. mr. ball. that means you would be on what corner of what streets? miss mitchell. i went out the elm street entrance of the building and i was on the corner of elm and record--i'm sorry, elm and houston. mr. ball. which corner? miss mitchell. i knew you were going to ask that and i decided it's probably the northwest corner. i am not good at directions. mr. ball. let's put it this way---- miss mitchell. it's the corner diagonally across the intersection from the texas school book depository. mr. ball. the texas school book depository is on the northwest corner; that would put you on the southeast corner. miss mitchell. yes, sir; i was thinking about which corner of the building. mr. ball. the northwest corner of the building and the southeast corner of the intersection, is that right? miss mitchell. yes, sir. mr. ball. were you near the curb when you were standing? miss mitchell. yes; i was on the curb. mr. ball. did you see the president's car pass? miss mitchell. yes; i did. mr. ball. tell me in your own words what you noticed and what you heard after the president's car passed; what did you see and what did you hear? miss mitchell. well, the president's car passed and, of course, i watched it as long as i could see it but, as i remember, immediately behind it was a car full of men with the top down and quite a few of them were standing and i assumed they were secret service men, so after the car turned the corner and started down the hill, i couldn't see over the heads of the standing men for very long, so then i turned back to watch the other people in the caravan, whatever you call it, and probably about the time the car in which senator yarborough was riding had just passed, i heard some reports. the first one--there were three--the second and third being closer together than the first and second and probably on the first one my thought was that it was a firecracker and i think on the second one i thought that some police officer was after somebody that wasn't doing right and by the third report jim crawford had said the shots came from the building and as i looked up there then we realized that if the shots were coming from that building there was bound to have been somebody shooting at the people in the cars. mr. ball. you heard jim crawford say something about if they were shots--what were his words exactly? miss mitchell. well, i'm not sure that he said--i think he just said, "those shots came from that building," just assuming that everybody could have figured out by then that they were shots. mr. ball. did you look at the building? miss mitchell. yes; i did. mr. ball. did you see anybody in any of the windows? miss mitchell. i don't remember. i understand there were some porters that were leaning out of the fifth floor windows but i don't remember whether i saw them or not. i know where i thought he was pointing and where i was looking i couldn't see anybody so i never was sure which window he thought he was pointing to. mr. ball. was he pointing? miss mitchell. i am almost sure that he was because i was trying to figure out exactly where he was. mr. ball. what did you do after that, if anything? miss mitchell. well, looked back around at the crowd, i'm sure, because i expected to see the secret service men and police escorts just start pouring everywhere when we decided what the shots were and then looking at the people that were falling on the ground and started milling around and then i went back in the office. mr. ball. and you did not come out again? miss mitchell. no; i did not come out again. mr. ball. did you, at any time, say anything like "oh, no, no" in reply to what mr. crawford said? miss mitchell. well, yes, i'm sure i did. mr. ball. in reply to what remark of his? miss mitchell. oh, i don't know. i don't know possibly it was when he was talking about the shots coming from the building but i don't remember if he said anything else. mr. ball. well, if you excuse me just a minute, let me look in my notes here. these are the notes from which i refresh my memory here. miss mitchell. i can remember what i was saying and doing better than i can what other people were. mr. ball. is there anything else that you remember that you said? miss mitchell. besides when i said something about "oh, no, no" or "oh, my goodness" or "oh, my god" or whatever i said? mr. ball. yes; that's right. miss mitchell. yes; i said, "this is no place for us, let's get out of here." i thought if we would get out of their way, the police officers could work better. mr. ball. that's when you left? miss mitchell. that's when i left and he came with me. i had locked the office and i had the key to the office still in my hand so i could get back in very fast. mr. ball. i think that's all. do you want to look this over and read it and sign it or do you want to waive signature? miss mitchell. either way. we were out of the office such a short time because we had spotters in the building so we would know when the parade was coming and we could run out. we had so many people in the building who worked there upstairs and they called us when it was coming so we could go outside. mr. ball. if you wish, we can waive your signature; the young lady will write it up and send it back to washington, is that all right with you? miss mitchell. yes; that's fine. mr. ball. i think that's all. thank you very much for coming up today. testimony of mrs. barbara rowland the testimony of mrs. barbara rowland was taken at p.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. david w. belin, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. belin. mrs. rowland, will you stand and be sworn. do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before this president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mrs. rowland. yes, sir. mr. belin. would you please state your name. mrs. rowland. barbara rowland. mr. belin. is it miss or mrs.? mrs. rowland. mrs. mr. belin. to whom are you married? mrs. rowland. arnold lewis rowland. mr. belin. your husband has already gone to washington to testify before the commission in washington, is that correct? mrs. rowland. yes, sir. mr. belin. what is your occupation right now? what are you doing? mrs. rowland. i am a housewife. mr. belin. are you a high school graduate? mrs. rowland. no, sir. mr. belin. are you still attending high school? mrs. rowland. no; but i plan to go back later. mr. belin. in the fall? mrs. rowland. yes, sir. mr. belin. where is your husband working? mrs. rowland. he's got a new job. he is working for life circulation co., or corporation, i don't know which. mr. belin. what does he do? mrs. rowland. he is a telephone solicitor. mr. belin. for magazine subscriptions? mrs. rowland. yes, sir. mr. belin. is your husband a high school graduate or not? mrs. rowland. no. mr. belin. did you meet while you were going to high school? mrs. rowland. yes, sir. mr. belin. how old is your husband, by the way? mrs. rowland. he is . mr. belin. when were you married? mrs. rowland. we were married may , . mr. belin. so you will be having your anniversary in another few weeks? mrs. rowland. yes. mr. belin. do you know if i got on the record your residence? mrs. rowland. a phinney. mr. belin. is that in dallas? mrs. rowland. yes. mr. belin. are you originally from dallas? mrs. rowland. yes, sir. mr. belin. you lived here all your life? mrs. rowland. except the summer we lived in oregon. mr. belin. is your husband originally from dallas? mrs. rowland. he is from corpus christi. mr. belin. has he lived in texas all of his life, do you know, or not? mrs. rowland. no. he has lived in texas and kansas and oregon and arizona, and i don't know where else. mr. belin. when did he live in kansas? mrs. rowland. about years ago, i think. mr. belin. do you know what he was doing when he was in kansas? mrs. rowland. he was going to school and working, i don't know what as. i think he worked in a cafe. mr. belin. do you know how far your husband got through school? mrs. rowland. well, his credits are all mixed up. i think he lacks one or two semesters. mr. belin. of completing high school? mrs. roland. yes. mr. belin. you said you were going back to school. does he plan to keep working, or does he plan to go back to school? mrs. rowland. he plans to go back to school sometime. i'm not sure when. mr. belin. to finish high school? mrs. rowland. and college. go to college, i think. mr. belin. well, has he ever made any application for college yet, that you know of? mrs. rowland. i don't know for certain. mr. belin. do you know, or has he ever said to you that he has? mrs. rowland. he told me he was going to make an application at oregon state, and--but i don't know if he ever made any applications anywhere. mr. belin. would you categorize yourself insofar as your grades that you got in high school, would they have been c's, b's, or a's, or what? mrs. rowland. a's and a few b's. mr. belin. what was your major? mrs. rowland. english. mr. belin. if you had one? mrs. rowland. i was going to major in english, math, and spanish. mr. belin. all three? mrs. rowland. in high school. mr. belin. what about your husband? did you know what he was majoring in? mrs. rowland. math, i think. mr. belin. do you know about what his grades were? mrs. rowland. varied. mr. belin. what do you mean by that? mrs. rowland. he made a's and b's in some subjects, and he made c's and d's, i think, in other subjects. mr. belin. was this before you were married? mrs. rowland. yes. he says he has an a average, but i don't believe him. mr. belin. why? did he tell you that? mrs. rowland. yes. he told me that, because i saw a few of his report cards. mr. belin. pardon? mrs. rowland. i saw a few of his report cards and they weren't all a's. mr. belin. for what years would that have been? mrs. rowland. i don't remember. i just saw them. mr. belin. mrs. rowland, i want to get just a little bit more background information. after you were married, were you employed at all or not? mrs. rowland. i worked for sanger harris during the christmas season this year, this past year. mr. belin. other than that? mrs. rowland. well, i worked for about days for a friend of mine at a dry goods store. mr. belin. what about your husband? what jobs has he held since you were married? mrs. rowland. let's see, he worked at west foods in salem,---- mr. belin. was this after you were married? mrs. rowland. yes. mr. belin. did you go to oregon after you were married? mrs. rowland. yes. we were married may , and we went to oregon about, we left the next day, and we got there about the st or something like that. he worked at west foods in salem; exchange lumber in salem; myron frank in salem, and after we moved back down here and---- mr. belin. when did you move back down to texas? mrs. rowland. in september. mr. belin. were these jobs that he held of the same type, or did he work first at one place and then---- mrs. rowland. one place and then another. mr. belin. any particular reason why he changed jobs, that you know of? mrs. rowland. well, the first job was dirty and difficult and he didn't like it. mr. belin. what was he doing then? mrs. rowland. he was working in a mushroom plant. mr. belin. as what? mrs. rowland. i think he was carrying them out, i don't know exactly what he was doing with them. then he worked at myron frank which was a department store. mr. belin. what did he do there? mrs. rowland. he worked as a cook. mr. belin. is he a good cook? mrs. rowland. pretty good cook. mr. belin. are you better than he is? mrs. rowland. i am not a very good cook. mr. belin. all right. mrs. rowland. anyway, he worked there. it was a temporary job when he got it, and when the time, when the period was up, he got another job as a, what do you call it, a shipping clerk at the exchange lumber co., and he worked there until a few days before we left. mr. belin. then you went back to dallas sometime in september? mrs. rowland. yes. mr. belin. then what did your husband do? mrs. rowland. i don't remember the first job. he worked for pizza inn as a cook and he worked for civic reading club as a telephone solicitation job, and he worked for p. f. collier co., as a salesman, and then he worked, now he is working for life circulation co. as a telephone solicitor. mr. belin. how long did he have these jobs? the first one, how long did he work there, approximately? mrs. rowland. i don't know. i think he worked at pizza inn for about two and a half months, maybe. and he worked for p. f. collier for about weeks, i think, but he didn't do anything there. i mean he wasn't very successful. and he worked for civic reading club about months, i guess. mr. belin. and now he is working for? mrs. rowland. life circulation co. mr. belin. were you working at all during the fall, or what were you doing? mrs. rowland. he worked for sanger harris during the christmas season, too. mr. belin. were you? mrs. rowland. yes. that is the only job. that is all i have worked. mr. belin. were you going to school at all in the fall, or not? mrs. rowland. yes; at the beginning of the fall we were both going to school. but we couldn't quite afford to stay, and so because his job was only part-time---- mr. belin. so did either one of you quit or both? mrs. rowland. both. mr. belin. about when did you both quit? mrs. roland. in november, i believe it was. mr. belin. would this have been before or after the shooting of president kennedy? mrs. roland. well, we stopped going before the assassination, but we officially dropped afterwards. mr. belin. well, let me ask you this. on the morning of the assassination, where were you? mrs. roland. we were on houston street near the drive-in entrance of the records building between elm and main streets. mr. belin. before that, where had you been that morning? mrs. rowland. at my mother's home. mr. belin. you had been at your mother's home that morning from about when to when? mrs. rowland. well, we were living with my mother, and so from that morning when we got up, and we walked part way---- mr. belin. when did you leave your mother's home, about? mrs. rowland. i think it was about or : , and we caught the bus. we walked a few blocks toward town, because we thought we would be too late to come see him, and we caught the bus, i don't know exactly what time it was when we got to town, but i think it was about : , and about minutes before the motorcade came by is when he told me about the man up in the window. mr. belin. all right, now, you caught a bus near your mother's place? mrs. rowland. yes. mr. belin. about what time? mrs. rowland. the ledbetter bus. mr. belin. about what time do you think you caught the bus? mrs. roland. i don't know, about : , i guess. mr. belin. when did that get you downtown? mrs. rowland. about . i don't know exactly. i don't remember times very well. mr. belin. well, let me ask you this. after you got downtown, what did you do? mrs. rowland. we just stood there waiting for the motorcade. mr. belin. well. i will kind of work backwards. how long did you stand waiting for the motorcade before the motorcade came by, if you remember? mrs. rowland. about minutes, i think. mr. belin. how long did it take you to get from the bus stop? mrs. rowland. the bus stop was right there. mr. belin. do you figure if the motorcade came by at around : , you figure you got down to the spot at or : ? mrs. rowland. yes. mr. belin. if you got down to that spot at or : , how many minutes prior to that time do you think you got on the bus? mrs. rowland. about . mr. belin. you figure it might have been a -minute bus ride? mrs. rowland. yes. mr. belin. that would have meant that you would have got on the bus around : or so? mrs. rowland. yes. mr. belin. do you remember how long you waited for the bus before you got it? mrs. rowland. we were walking while waiting for the bus, and it was about, i guess, minutes. mr. belin. so you figured you walked around about minutes? mrs. rowland. yes. mr. belin. so you figured you would have left your mother's home shortly before ? mrs. rowland. yes. mr. belin. you are nodding your head yes? mrs. rowland. yes. mr. belin. all right, did you notice anything while you were watching, waiting for the motorcade? mrs. rowland. we saw an airplane. now, while we were waiting for the motorcade, well, there was a man across the street who fainted in the park. mr. belin. you were standing now on what street? mrs. rowland. on houston street. mr. belin. that would be on the east or the west side of houston? mrs. rowland. west side--east side. mr. belin. east side. in front of what building? mrs. rowland. in front of the records, at the side of the records building. mr. belin. do you know any particular spot that you were standing? mrs. rowland. we were standing near the drive-in entrance. there is an elevator there, too. mr. belin. near the elevator that comes out of the ground? mrs. rowland. yes. mr. belin. all right, you said you noticed a man across the street fainted. anything else that you and your husband noticed? mrs. rowland. well, my husband and i were talking about mr. stevenson's visit and the way the people had acted, and we were talking about security measures, and he said he saw a man on the sixth floor of the school book depository building, and when i looked up there i didn't see the man, because i didn't know exactly what window he was talking about at first. and when i found out which window it was, the man had apparently stepped back, because i didn't see him. mr. belin. which window was it? mrs. rowland. it was the far left-hand window. mr. belin. as you face the building? mrs. rowland. yes. mr. belin. it would be the window to the south side of the building? mrs. rowland. yes. mr. belin. would it be on the eastern part of the south side or the western part of the south side? mrs. rowland. west. mr. belin. would it be the farthermost west window? mrs. rowland. yes; the farthermost west pair of windows. mr. belin. the farthermost west pair of windows. what did your husband say to you? mrs. rowland. well, we assumed that it was a secret service man. mr. belin. but what did he say, if you remember? mrs. rowland. he told me that he saw a man there who looked like he was holding a rifle, and that it must be a security man guarding the motorcade. mr. belin. is there anything else that you can remember that he told you? mrs. rowland. no. mr. belin. what did you do when he told you that? mrs. rowland. nothing. i just generally agreed with him. mr. belin. what do you mean "generally agree"? did you see the man? mrs. rowland. no; i didn't see the man, but i said i guess that was what it was. mr. belin. you mean you agreed that he must have been a security officer? mrs. rowland. yes. mr. belin. i notice you are not wearing glasses now. do you wear glasses? mrs. bowland. yes; sometimes. mr. belin. are you near-sighted or far-sighted? mrs. bowland. near-sighted. mr. belin. did you have any trouble looking at this window? mrs. bowland. no; i saw the window plainly, and i saw some people hanging, looking out of some other windows, but he said that the man was standing in the background. mr. belin. did he say about how far back? mrs. bowland. i think he said about feet, i don't know exactly. mr. belin. did he say how much of the man he could see? mrs. bowland. apparently he could see at least from the waist up, because he said that the man was wearing a light shirt, and that he was holding the rifle at a port arms position. mr. belin. did he say whether the man was white or colored? mrs. bowland. he said he thought he was white. mr. belin. did he say whether the man was an old man or a young man? mrs. bowland. he said a young man. mr. belin. did he say whether the man was fat or thin? mrs. bowland. he said he was either tall or thin. i mean, if he was tall, he could have been well built, but if he was not very tall, then he was thin. mr. belin. did he say whether or not the man had on a hat? mrs. bowland. i don't think he said whether he did or not. but if he had seen a hat, i think he would have said so. mr. belin. did he say what color hair the man had? mrs. bowland. i am not positive. mr. belin. about how many minutes was this before the motorcade came by that he saw this? mrs. bowland. about minutes. mr. belin. did he say anything else about the man? mrs. bowland. not that i remember, except that he was wearing a light colored shirt or jacket. mr. belin. did he say anything about any other people in any other windows? mrs. bowland. no; i don't think so. mr. belin. now, did you notice any other people standing in any other windows or leaning out? mrs. bowland. i am not sure if i did at that moment. mr. belin. later on? mrs. bowland. i saw some people either earlier or later looking out the windows. mr. belin. do you remember anything about any of the people you saw? mrs. bowland. some of them were colored men. i don't think i saw any women. mr. belin. did you see any white men? mrs. bowland. i am not positive. mr. belin. do you remember where you saw any of these negro men? mrs. bowland. on a lower floor, about the fourth floor, i think, and nearer the center window. the windows nearer the center. mr. belin. on some floor lower than the sixth floor, which you think was the fourth floor? mrs. bowland. about the fourth floor. mr. belin. did you and your husband comment about these other men? mrs. bowland. we may have said something about there being other people watching, i am not sure. mr. belin. did you particularly watch the sixth floor because of the fact that you had seen or your husband had seen a person on the sixth floor? mrs. bowland. we looked at it for a few minutes, but we didn't look back, and when we heard the shots, we didn't look back up there. i grabbed his hand and started running toward the car. mr. belin. let me ask you this now. from the time that you saw or your husband said he saw a man on the southwest part of the sixth floor, which you say was about minutes before the motorcade came by, how much longer did you look back up at the building? mrs. rowland. just about or minutes. mr. belin. after that? mrs. rowland. about minutes. mr. belin. you mean about minutes after that time? mrs. rowland. yes. mr. belin. so that would be up to a time of about minutes before the motorcade came by? mrs. rowland. yes. mr. belin. did you ever look back at the building after that period of time? mrs. rowland. i may have glanced at it, but i don't remember looking back for the purpose of seeing the man. mr. belin. all right, or any man there? mrs. rowland. any man there. mr. belin. what were you doing from the minutes on before the motorcade came until the time it came? mrs. rowland. just talking and looking. mr. belin. where were you looking? mrs. rowland. at the street and the other people, and we talked about some men who were carrying cameras. mr. belin. now when you were standing watching the motorcade or standing watching the street scene, do you remember if your husband was to your right or to your left? was he closer towards the school book depository building? mrs. rowland. no; he was to my left most of the time, i think. mr. belin. what was he doing? mrs. rowland. just standing there talking. mr. belin. talking to you? mrs. rowland. yes. mr. belin. do you know whether or not if he ever looked back at the building? mrs. rowland. i wouldn't know for certain. mr. belin. did he ever tell you he was looking back at the building? mrs. rowland. no. mr. belin. did you ever notice him looking back at the building? mrs. rowland. not that i remember. mr. belin. was he generally looking at you when he was talking with you? mrs. rowland. not necessarily. he might have been looking around at the street or at the building. mr. belin. or at anything? mrs. rowland. yes. mr. belin. anything else at that place then that you specifically remember before the motorcade came by? did your husband say anything about seeing anyone in the building, or did you talk any more about the man with the rifle? mrs. rowland. i really don't remember very much about what happened afterward. i mean it was just---- mr. belin. i mean between, in the minutes preceding the motorcade? mrs. rowland. i remember hearing on the radio that the president was passing ervay street. it wasn't on our radio, somebody else's radio, and that is about all. mr. belin. anything else you can think of? mrs. rowland. no. mr. belin. by the way, what color dress were you wearing that day? mrs. rowland. oh, my, i am fairly certain i was either wearing a green suit or red and gray suit, but i am not positive. mr. belin. what kind of coat, if you were wearing a coat? mrs. rowland. i was wearing a brown coat, brown suede coat. mr. belin. do you remember what your husband was wearing? mrs. rowland. he was wearing a plaid sports jacket, probably. i am not sure which sports jacket, but i think he was wearing a plaid sports jacket that was blue and had some black and grey in it. mr. belin. was he wearing any overcoat over the sports jacket? mrs. rowland. oh, no; i wasn't wearing that brown coat, i don't think. i think i was wearing an olive coat. he probably had his overcoat, but it is more of a raincoat. mr. belin. were you wearing gloves? mrs. rowland. yes. mr. belin. was he wearing gloves? mrs. rowland. yes. mr. belin. were you wearing a hat? mrs. rowland. no; a scarf. mr. belin. was he wearing a hat, do you remember? mrs. rowland. he might have been. he wears one sometimes. sometimes he doesn't. mr. belin. is there anything else you remember about what happened prior to the time the motorcade came by? mrs. rowland. no. mr. belin. all right, now, will you please tell us what happened as the motorcade went by? mrs. rowland. well, mrs. kennedy was wearing a blue--i mean a pink or maybe a rose--it was either pink or rose dress or suit, i couldn't say, because she was sitting. she had a pink hat or rose, the same shade as her dress. and i remember noticing that the president's hair was sort of red, that is all. they were facing mainly toward the other side of the street and waving, and as they turned the corner we heard a shot, and i didn't recognize it as being a shot. i just heard a sound, and i thought it might be a firecracker. and the people started laughing at first, and then we heard two more shots, and they were closer than the first and second, and that is all. mr. belin. how many shots did you hear all told? mrs. rowland. three. mr. belin. when you said you heard two more shots that were closer than the first and second, what did you mean? mrs. rowland. i meant the second and third were closer than the first and second. mr. belin. mrs. rowland, did you have any idea where the shots came from or the sound? mrs. rowland. well, the people generally ran towards the railroad tracks behind the school book depository building, and so i naturally assumed they came from there, because that is where all the policemen and everyone was going, and i couldn't tell where the sounds came from. mr. belin. so you just started over after them? mrs. rowland. yes. mr. belin. did your husband go with you? mrs. rowland. yes; i grabbed his hand and he couldn't go anyplace else. mr. belin. were you running or walking over there? mrs. rowland. it wasn't a very fast run, but it wasn't a walk. mr. belin. did you talk about anything, about the man that you had seen in the window? mrs. rowland. no. but he was reluctant to start running, and he might have been looking up there, i don't know. but we didn't say anything about the man. mr. belin. what did you do when you got over there? where did you run to? mrs. rowland. to the colonnade over on the north side of elm street. mr. belin. as elm street goes down to the freeway? mrs. rowland. yes. mr. belin. then where did you go? mrs. rowland. we walked towards the railroad tracks, but the policeman wouldn't let anybody go further. mr. belin. then what did you do? mrs. rowland. we just stood there and he was speculating on what had happened, and he was looking around at everything, and the policeman inspected a coke drink bottle that was there, and my husband found a pen, very cheap ballpoint pen that you get as an advertisement, and he gave it to the policeman, and then he mentioned the man he had seen in the school book depository building, and then the man took us to the records building. mr. belin. who did your husband mention this to? was this some police officer? mrs. rowland. i am not certain. the first man he mentioned it to was wearing plain clothes, and we didn't see him again, i don't think. and then there were some other men who took us to the building. i don't know who they were. mr. belin. then what did you do when you got to the building? did you stay with your husband? mrs. rowland. yes. mr. belin. he was questioned in the building? mrs. rowland. yes. mr. belin. did you hear what your husband said? mrs. rowland. yes. mr. belin. could you describe what went on in the building? mrs. rowland. when we first came in, we went into an office that had glass windows around it. there was a man sitting there with a child. i think it was a boy and he said that he had seen the president shot and he said that--he didn't say there were three shots, i think he said there was one, or maybe he said there were more than three, but he didn't say there were three shots. then we went out into an open area in the building, a fairly open area, and there were some reporters in there, and they started asking us questions which we didn't answer, because mainly we didn't have time. then we were taken into a very small office and a lady took his written statement and my statement, and there were three other people who came in, three other witnesses who come in. there were two young men together, and one young lady who came in. mr. belin. all right, now, when you gave your statement to the police and your husband gave his statement to the police, or to whoever the people were taking the statement, do you remember what your husband said? mrs. rowland. yes. do i have to tell you again? mr. belin. well, did he say substantially what you said? mrs. rowland. yes; i think so. mr. belin. anything else that he said that you haven't related here? mrs. rowland. i believe he may have said that the man had dark hair. either he said that the man had dark hair, or he didn't see what color the man's hair was. and he said just about the same thing i said here, i think. mr. belin. all right, anything else that was said there by your husband? mrs. rowland. i don't remember anything else. mr. belin. did your husband at that time say whether or not he had kept any watch on the window of the school book depository building after he saw this man with the gun? mrs. rowland. no. mr. belin. you mean he---- mrs. rowland. he didn't say. mr. belin. did he say whether or not he had seen any other people in the windows of the school book depository building? mrs. rowland. yes; i am fairly certain that he said there were other people looking out the windows. mr. belin. did he say whether or not there were any other people on that same floor looking out the windows? mrs. rowland. i am not certain whether he said or not. but i know there weren't any other people on that floor looking out the windows that could be seen from the outside. mr. belin. how do you know that? mrs. rowland. i mean i know they couldn't be seen from the outside, because i couldn't see them. i am nearsighted. mr. belin. were you keeping any watch on the building after the time you saw the man with the rifle? mrs. rowland. well---- mr. belin. did you look up at that building from time to time? mrs. rowland. well, i didn't pay any special attention to the building, but i am sure i glanced at the building more than once afterwards, because i can't just stand and stare in one direction. mr. belin. do you mean you were just glancing at that building as you were glancing at other places? mrs. rowland. yes, sir. mr. belin. when you were glancing at that building, do you remember whether you glanced at it, say, within minutes prior to the motorcade? mrs. rowland. i don't remember. but most of the windows on that floor were closed, and the people who were looking out usually were looking out at an open window. mr. belin. did you see any people look out of any open windows? mrs. rowland. yes. mr. belin. about how many did you see all told, if you can remember? mrs. roland. two or three, i think. mr. belin. any more than two or three looking out of windows? mrs. rowland. not that i remember. mr. belin. do you remember whether or not any of those that you saw looking out of windows were looking out of the sixth floor? mrs. rowland. they weren't. mr. belin. they were not? were they on any floor higher than the sixth floor? mrs. rowland. no. mr. belin. were they all on floors lower than the sixth floor? mrs. rowland. yes. mr. belin. did your husband state in the presence of you at any time while he was giving any of these statements on the afternoon of november , whether or not he saw any people looking out of the building? mrs. rowland. yes. mr. belin. where did he say he saw them? mrs. rowland. he didn't say exactly where he saw them, but the windows on the floor above the sixth floor were all closed, and i think they were never open. mr. belin. all right. so they wouldn't have been on the seventh floor? mrs. rowland. no. mr. belin. did he say whether or not he saw any people looking out of any other windows on the sixth floor? mrs. rowland. he didn't say, i don't believe. mr. belin. did he say what floor? he didn't say whether he did or did not, is that your testimony, or did he say that he did not? mrs. rowland. i don't believe he said whether or not he saw any other people on the sixth floor. mr. belin. what did he say about what he saw? do you remember about how many people he said he saw looking out of the windows? mrs. rowland. i don't believe he said any certain number of people. mr. belin. do you remember anything that he said about that? mrs. rowland. he just said that there were some other people looking out of some windows in the same building. mr. belin. did he specifically locate them in any way? mrs. rowland. no. mr. belin. all right, is there any other thing that your husband said in your presence that afternoon pertaining to this school book depository building? mrs. rowland. no; i don't believe so. mr. belin. how long did you stay over there? mrs. rowland. we were there until about : or : , i think. mr. belin. then what did you do? mrs. rowland. then we left and walked around town and tried to get a newspaper, and before we left, we knew that the president was dead. from that--for a while, we were in a room alone with a lady who came in to testify, and said that she had seen a blond man carrying a rifle in a rifle bag, and he said that probably it couldn't have been the man he saw because the man he saw was dark-haired. mr. belin. did this woman say where she was--where she saw the blond-haired man? mrs. rowland. i believe she said in front of some sporting goods store. i am not certain. mr. belin. did she say where the sporting goods store was? mrs. rowland. some place downtown, but i don't remember exactly. mr. belin. was it in the immediate vicinity of the school book depository building? mrs. rowland. meaning? mr. belin. within a block of it? mrs. rowland. no. mr. belin. did she say when she saw a blond-haired man carrying a rifle? mrs. rowland. i am not positive exactly what time she said, but it was before, she said, she heard about the president being shot, and she came back there to tell them she had seen a man earlier carrying a gun in a rifle case. mr. belin. she had seen some man, that had blond hair, downtown carrying a gun in a rifle case? mrs. rowland. yes. mr. belin. that is all she knew? mrs. rowland. yes, sir. mr. belin. anything else? mrs. rowland. well, i believe that is all she knew. mr. belin. is there anything else that you can add? mrs. rowland. well, there were two young men who came in too, and they said something about seeing a man carrying a rifle downtown. i believe they also said he was a blond man. mr. belin. anything else? mrs. rowland. that he was over feet, and he was well built, from what they said, and that is all i know. mr. belin. what did your husband say about that? mrs. rowland. he didn't comment, i don't think. mr. belin. was there anything else that took place while you and your husband were over giving your statements, that you can think of right now? anything else that your husband said? mrs. rowland. not that i remember. mr. belin. all right, then, where did you go? mrs. rowland. we left and we walked in an easterly direction and we went to a coin shop and looked around for a while, and then i went home and he went to work. mr. belin. where was he working? mrs. rowland. at the pizza inn on west davis. he caught a bus and went to work, and i caught a bus and went home. mr. belin. then what happened? when did you see him next? mrs. rowland. no, wait a minute, i didn't go home very soon. the bus--there was poor bus service, and i didn't go home until quite, until about : , i think, and i saw him the next morning. mr. belin. had he been contacted at the pizza inn later that night, do you know, or not? mrs. rowland. i don't think so. mr. belin. all right, now, were either you or he contacted at any time during that day by any law enforcement agency? mrs. rowland. i don't think we were contacted the next day. mr. belin. that would have been saturday? mrs. rowland. saturday, i know we weren't. i am not positive. mr. belin. when were you next contacted, either on that saturday or that sunday? mrs. rowland. i think so. i am not positive. mr. belin. let me ask you how many times after november were you contacted by some law enforcement agency? mrs. rowland. me personally? mr. belin. you personally. mrs. rowland. i spoke to law enforcement officers about three or four times, i think. mr. belin. about how many times in november? once on the d? mrs. rowland. yes. and we were contacted once sunday morning at the pizza inn during november. i think it was the next sunday. mr. belin. the th? mrs. rowland. yes. and we were contacted one morning, i am not positive, i think it might have been that saturday, the following saturday, the d--the saturday following the assassination, at my mother's home, and i am not positive how many times. mr. belin. were you present at any of these times that your husband was contacted? mrs. rowland. yes. mr. belin. were you present, for instance, on the sunday morning, november th? mrs. rowland. yes. mr. belin. do you remember what your husband said at that time? mrs. rowland. he repeated the statement he had made in the--well, the police officers brought a written statement and asked him if that was in general what he had to say, and he said, "yes," and they asked him specific questions about it and he answered them. mr. belin. was there anything else that was said? mrs. rowland. i don't believe so. mr. belin. was there anything that your husband said that was not on that written statement? mrs. rowland. i am not positive. mr. belin. do you remember him saying anything--do you remember him telling the police officer that the statement was correct, or do you remember him telling them anything? mrs. rowland. yes; he signed. there might have been a change or two in the statement and then he signed it and said that he verified that it was correct, to the best of his knowledge. mr. belin. did he tell the police officer anything that was not on that statement that should be? mrs. rowland. i don't believe so. mr. belin. was he asked whether or not he saw any other people in any other windows? mrs. rowland. i don't believe he was specifically asked that question. mr. belin. did he tell any of the police officers that he saw any people in any other windows? mrs. rowland. i am not certain. mr. belin. do you know whether or not he told them, the police officers, that there was any other person on the sixth floor that he saw? mrs. rowland. he never said that there was another person on the sixth floor, in my presence, that i can remember. mr. belin. were you present when he was with the police officers? mrs. rowland. at times. mr. belin. on sunday morning, november th? mrs. rowland. yes. mr. belin. were you personally with him throughout the time that he was with the police officers? mrs. rowland. yes. mr. belin. and he, in your presence, never said that he saw anyone on the sixth floor other than the man with the rifle? mrs. rowland. no. he never said in my presence that there was another man other than the man with the rifle on the sixth floor. mr. belin. it is a little bit like there has been asked a negative question and you don't know whether to answer yes or no to the question, is that right, mrs. rowland? mrs. rowland. yes, sir. mr. belin. now were you present at any subsequent interviews that your husband had with any law enforcement agency? mrs. rowland. i was present when mr. howlett came to ask, to tell him that he should go to washington, that he wanted him to go to washington. mr. belin. what did your husband say to that? mrs. rowland. he said, "okay." mr. belin. did he talk to you, by the way, about his testimony when he got back from washington? did he talk to you about his testimony in front of the commission? mrs. rowland. no. mr. belin. has he ever talked to you about his testimony? before you came down here, for instance, has he talked to you about what he said in front of the commission? mrs. rowland. not that i remember. mr. belin. going back to his interview with the police, do you know how many interviews he had after the one on sunday, november ? mrs. rowland. i think he had about six or eight interviews in all. i mean all inclusive. mr. belin. would that include the one with mr. howlett telling him to go to washington? mrs. rowland. yes. i am not positive of the number. mr. belin. let me ask you this. from november to november , that week, do you know how many interviews he had? mrs. rowland. no; i don't know. mr. belin. now, has he ever told you that he had seen anyone else on the sixth floor other than this man with the gun that you described in the southwest corner window? mrs. rowland. no, sir. mr. belin. has he ever told you that he told anyone else that he saw anyone else on the sixth floor? mrs. rowland. no, sir. mr. belin. did your husband ever complain to you that he was being questioned too much by any law enforcement agency? mrs. rowland. i don't think so, not that i remember. mr. belin. did he ever complain to you that any statement that he gave was not taken down? mrs. rowland. not that i remember. mr. belin. was there any complaint that he ever made to you about law enforcement agencies? mrs. rowland. not about the law enforcement agencies, but in the dallas morning news on february , -- th or th, they had an article in there, and they had some things in the article that he didn't say. mr. belin. like what? mrs. rowland. like that the man was good looking. i mean, because he said he couldn't recognize the man. that is what he told me. mr. belin. apart from what the dallas morning news said, then, did he have any complaints about his contacts with either the fbi or secret service or the sheriffs office or the city police of dallas? mrs. rowland. none that i remember. mr. belin. mrs. rowland, you made a statement toward the beginning part of this deposition that your husband said that he had all a's, but that you knew different, because you had seen the report card. mrs. rowland. he said he had an a average. mr. belin. but that you knew different? mrs. rowland. well, he may have had an a average overall a average, but some of his cards didn't have a's altogether. mr. belin. well, you mentioned that he had a's and b's and some c's and some d's? mrs. rowland. the one i saw. mr. belin. do you remember what years those would have been for? mrs. rowland. no, sir. mr. belin. sometimes some people are prone to exaggerate more than others, and without in any way meaning to take away from the testimony of your husband as to what he saw in the building at the time, just from your general experience, do you feel you can rely on everything that your husband says? mrs. rowland. i don't feel that i can rely on everything anybody says. mr. belin. well, this is really an unfair question for me to ask any wife about her husband, and i am not asking it very correctly, but---- mrs. rowland. at times my husband is prone to exaggerate. does that answer it? mr. belin. i think it does. is there anything else you want to add to that, or not? mrs. rowland. usually his exaggerations are not concerned with anything other than himself. they are usually to boast his ego. they usually say that he is really smarter than he is, or he is a better salesman than he is, something like that. mr. belin. anything else you care to add? mrs. rowland. no, sir. mr. belin. again, i apologize for any--for in any way trying to embarrass you or anything, but your husband did see a man on the sixth floor and it is important for us to try and find out everything we can to test his accuracy as to what he saw, and so this is why i have been asking these questions. you and i have never met before? mrs. rowland. not that i ever remember. mr. belin. when we did meet, i immediately brought you in here and we started taking your deposition under oath, isn't that true? mrs. rowland. yes, sir. mr. belin. we didn't chat about anything before we started taking your deposition, did we? mrs. rowland. no. mr. belin. now you mentioned the fact that the newspaper misquoted your husband? mrs. rowland. yes, sir. mr. belin. is there any other time when you know that he complained about being misquoted insofar as the facts of the assassination are concerned? mrs. rowland. when we had our first written statement, the police officer, i believe he was an fbi agent, restated everything we said, and it was typed in the--in that form. but he also asked if it was, if that was the general meaning of what we had said, so he didn't complain. but anyway, it wasn't in his exact words, i mean. mr. belin. was there anything inaccurate about the statement? mrs. rowland. no; i don't think so. mr. belin. did your husband ever make any complaints to you about anything inaccurate in any statements that he had given? mrs. rowland. if he did, i don't remember it. mr. belin. is there anything else that you can think of that might in any way be relevant to this whole area of inquiry? mrs. rowland. no, sir. mr. belin. let me ask you this. did you or your husband rather, ever see a picture of lee harvey oswald on television? mrs. rowland. i saw either the actual shooting on television of mr. oswald or either a rerun, and i saw his picture in the newspaper, but i don't know if my husband ever saw it or not. but he did--we heard on the radio the afternoon of the assassination that lee harvey oswald had been accused of the shooting. mr. belin. did you or your husband know anyone by the name of lee harvey oswald? mr. rowland. no, sir. mr. belin. did you or your husband know jack ruby? mrs. rowland. not to my knowledge, i never have known him, and i don't think he has. if he has, he never told me. mr. belin. anything else you can think of? mrs. rowland. no, sir. mr. belin. well, we certainly appreciate your coming down here. you have been most helpful, mrs. rowland. one final thing. you have an opportunity to either come back and read what the court reporter has, the transcript after it is typed, and sign it, or else you can waive coming down and taking the time to read it and sign it, and have it go directly to washington. do you care to come down to read it? mrs. rowland. yes, sir. mr. belin. if you like to, you have every right to do so. mrs. rowland. yes; i would. mr. belin. you will be contacted then, and you can come down and read it and make any corrections, if you like. mrs. rowland. yes; could i, other than making corrections have it rewritten in better english? mr. belin. no, i'm afraid my english at times isn't very good, mrs. rowland, and we have to let it go the way it is right now. by corrections, i mean anything where you feel the court reporter might not have accurately transcribed the words that you and i said here. mrs. rowland. yes, sir. mr. belin. if either one used bad grammar, the english teachers will have to look down their noses at us. thank you. mrs. rowland. thank you. testimony of ronald b. fischer the testimony of ronald b. fischer was taken at : a.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. david w. belin, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. belin. mr. fischer, will you rise to be sworn, please, and raise your right hand? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. fischer. i do. mr. belin. will you please state your name? mr. fischer. ronald b. fischer. mr. belin. and where do you live, mr. fischer? mr. fischer. flamingo way, mesquite, tex. mr. belin. is this a suburb of dallas? mr. fischer. yes. mr. belin. what is your occupation? mr. fischer. i'm an auditor. mr. belin. for whom? mr. fischer. dallas county auditor. mr. belin. and where do you work? mr. fischer. i work at records building. mr. belin. and where is the records building? mr. fischer. that's in dallas. mr. belin. where in dallas? mr. fischer. it covers one square block area bounded by main, record, elm, and houston. mr. belin. how old are you, mr. fischer? mr. fischer. twenty-five. mr. belin. married? mr. fischer. yes. mr. belin. children? mr. fischer. two. mr. belin. did you go to school here in dallas? mr. fischer. yes--high school, yes. mr. belin. what high school did you go to? mr. fischer. w. w. samuell. mr. belin. did you complete high school or not? mr. fischer. yes. mr. belin. have you participated in any postgraduate work since you graduated from high school? mr. fischer. yes. mr. belin. what is that? mr. fischer. i've taken courses toward an accounting degree at arlington state college, arlington, tex. mr. belin. are these correspondence courses or have you actually attended the school? mr. fischer. no; i've attended the school. mr. belin. how long did you attend that school? mr. fischer. i attended year, full time and i attended year, night school. mr. belin. and what have you done since after you left arlington? mr. fischer. all of the time since i've left arlington, i've been working for the dallas county auditor--with the exception of a correspondence course that i'm taking at the present time. mr. belin. well, by that, you mean you're still working full time but you are taking the correspondence course also? mr. fischer. yes. mr. belin. you have been working for or years for the auditor's office? mr. fischer. five years. mr. belin. now, mr. fischer, i want to take you back to november , , and ask you if you remember watching or getting ready to watch, the presidential motorcade on that day? do you remember that? mr. fischer. yes. mr. belin. and were you with anyone else, or not? mr. fischer. bob edwards--he works in the same office that i do. mr. belin. does he work there now? mr. fischer. no; he doesn't. at the present time, he's attending a college in oklahoma but i don't remember the name. it's in tahlequah, i believe. i don't know the name of the college. mr. belin. could that be--i think it's [spelling] t-a-h-l-e-q-u-a-h? mr. fischer. i think that's it. mr. belin. now, when did you and mr. edwards leave your place of employment on that day to watch the motorcade? mr. fischer. oh, about--well, let's see. we got off for lunch at a quarter of twelve and mr. lynn, our boss, said that we could take--go ahead and go on down the street after we got through with lunch, in other words, don't come back to the office after lunch. just go on down the street and watch the parade. everybody was due back after the parade was over. mr. belin. uh-huh. mr. fischer. so, i went to lunch at a quarter of twelve, and ate until about o'clock, and then bob and i went down to the street--oh, or after --and we stood, at first, on main street right outside the records building. and then about : or : , we were trying to find a place where we could see better, so we walked down to houston and then one block down houston to elm and stood there until the parade came by. mr. belin. now, do you know when you got to corner of houston and elm--approximately? mr. fischer. about : . mr. belin. : ? mr. fischer. yes, sir. mr. belin. and where were you standing on the corner of houston and elm? mr. fischer. we were standing right on the curb--uh--on the southwest corner of elm and houston. mr. belin. where were you with relation to that lagoon that's there? mr. fischer. well, that lagoon is rather long. we were standing in front of it, across the sidewalk. i believe it's the curb and the sidewalk and this little bit of grass, and then the lagoon. and we were standing right on the curb there. mr. belin. you were standing on the curb at about the point where the actual curve of the curb is at the intersection--or not? mr. fischer. i'd say where the curb starts to curve. because, when the shots were fired, we looked around at the motorcade and couldn't see it--because--uh--of the people that were standing along the curb there. we just couldn't see it. had we been on further around, we could have just looked down the street and seen it. mr. belin. so, you would have been really standing on the curb which would be the west curb of houston street, just where it starts to make the curve to go onto elm there. is that correct? mr. fischer. that's correct. mr. belin. now, would you describe what you saw as you were standing on that curb? mr. fischer. about or seconds before the parade--first car of the parade came around the corner. mr. belin. now what corner is that? mr. fischer. of houston and main. mr. belin. uh-huh. mr. fischer. which would have been the first time we could have seen any of the cars because of the building--about or seconds before the first car came around that corner, bob punched me and said, "look at that guy there in that window." and he made some remark--said, "he looks like he's uncomfortable"--or something. and i looked up and i watched the man for, oh, i'd say, or seconds. it was until the first car came around the corner of houston and main. and, then, when that car did come around the corner, i took my attention off of the man in the window and started watching the parade. the man held my attention for or seconds, because he appeared uncomfortable for one, and, secondly, he wasn't watching--uh--he didn't look like he was watching for the parade. he looked like he was looking down toward the trinity river and the triple underpass down at the end--toward the end of elm street. and--uh--all the time i watched him, he never moved his head, he never--he never moved anything. just was there transfixed. mr. belin. in what window did you see the man? mr. fischer. it was the corner window on houston street facing elm, in the fifth or sixth floor. mr. belin. on what side of the--first of all, what building was this you saw him in? mr. fischer. the texas school book depository building. mr. belin. and what side of the building would the window have been in? mr. fischer. it would have been--well, as you're looking toward the front of the building, it would have been to your right. mr. belin. well, the building itself has four sides--a north, east, south, and a west side--the entire sides of the building. would this have been the north, south, east, or west side of the building? mr. fischer. it would have been the south side--the entrance. mr. belin. all right. now, on that south side of the building--now, was it the center part of the south side, the east part of the south side, or the west part of the south side? mr. fischer. the east part of the south side. mr. belin. all right. now, with reference to the east corner of the south side there--would it have been the first window next to that corner, the second, the third, or the fourth--or what? mr. fischer. first window. mr. belin. from the east corner of the south side? mr. fischer. yes. mr. belin. do you remember anything about the man? could you describe his appearance at all? first of all, how much of him could you see? mr. fischer. i could see from about the middle of his chest past the top of his head. mr. belin. all right. mr. fischer. he was in the--as you're looking toward that window, he was in the lower right portion of the window. he seemed to be sitting a little forward. and he had--he had on an open-neck shirt, but it--uh--could have been a sport shirt or a t-shirt. it was light in color; probably white, i couldn't tell whether it had long sleeves or whether it was a short-sleeved shirt, but it was open-neck and light in color. uh--he had a slender face and neck--uh--and he had a light complexion--he was a white man. and he looked to be or years old. mr. belin. do you remember anything about the color of his hair? mr. fischer. his hair seemed to be--uh--neither light nor dark; possibly a light--well, possibly a--well, it was a brown was what it was; but as to whether it was light or dark, i can't say. mr. belin. did he have a thick head of hair or did he have a receding hair-line--or couldn't you tell? mr. fischer. i couldn't tell. he couldn't have had very long hair, because his hair didn't seem to take up much space--of what i could see of his head. his hair must have been short and not long. mr. belin. well, did you see a full view of his face or more of a profile of it, or what was it? mr. fischer. i saw it at an angle but, at the same time, i could see--i believe i could see the tip of his right cheek as he looked to my left. mr. belin. now, could you be anything more definite as to what direction he was looking at? mr. fischer. he looked to me like he was looking straight at the triple underpass. mr. belin. down what street? mr. fischer. elm street. mr. belin. down elm? mr. fischer. toward the end of elm street. mr. belin. as it angles there and goes under the triple underpass there? mr. fischer. yes, sir. mr. belin. could you see his hands? mr. fischer. no. mr. belin. could you see whether or not he was holding anything? mr. fischer. no; i couldn't see. mr. belin. could you see any other objects in the window? mr. fischer. there were boxes and cases stacked all the way from the bottom to the top and from the left to the right behind him. it looked--uh--it's possible that there weren't cases directly behind him because i couldn't see because of him. but--uh--all the rest of the window--a portion behind the window--there were boxes. it looked like there was space for a man to walk through there between the window and the boxes. but there were boxes in the window, or close to the window there. mr. belin. could you see any other people in any other windows there that you remember? mr. fischer. i couldn't see any other people in the windows. i don't remember seeing any others. mr. belin. by this, do you mean that you are sure there were none, or that you just do not remember seeing any? mr. fischer. i don't remember seeing any. mr. belin. now, after you saw the man, then the motorcade turned onto houston from main--is that correct? mr. fischer. yes. mr. belin. did you ever see the man again in the window? mr. fischer. no. mr. belin. did you ever look back at the window? mr. fischer. i never looked back at the window. mr. belin. well, could you describe what happened as you watched the motorcade turn? first, about how fast did the motorcade appear to be going? mr. fischer. when the motorcade passed me, it was--uh--the driver was in process of making the wide turn there from houston to elm, and he was going very slow. i'd say, uh-- - miles an hour. mr. belin. all right. then what happened? mr. fischer. well, the motorcade--the limousine made the wide turn and--uh--they went out of our view just as they began to straighten up onto elm street because there were people standing along the curb all the way around--and that's when the limousine went out of my view and i started watching the other cars behind the presidential limousine. mr. belin. and then what happened? mr. fischer. well, as i looked around to watch these other cars, i heard a shot. at first i thought it was a firecracker. and--uh--everybody got quiet. there was no yelling or shouting or anything. everything seemed to get real still. and--uh--the second shot rang out, and then everybody--from where i was standing--everybody started to scatter. and--uh--then the third shot. at first, i thought there were four, but as i think about it more, there must have been just three. mr. belin. at first, you thought there were four shots? mr. fischer. yes. mr. belin. now, you said the first one you thought was a firecracker? mr. fischer. yes. mr. belin. what about the second one? did you think that was a firecracker, too? mr. fischer. no. when the second shot rang out. it was too much like the first to be a firecracker. i have heard high-powered rifles fire before. the--uh--first shot fooled me, i think, because of the sound bouncing off the buildings. but the second shot was too much like the first and it was too loud--both shots were too loud to be a firecracker. and i knew it was a shot. mr. belin. have you had any experience with high-powered rifles before? mr. fischer. very little; but i have shot several. mr. belin. what about the third shot? did you think that was a firecracker or what? mr. fischer. no; i knew it was a shot, too. i knew someone was shooting at something. uh--it didn't--it still didn't dawn on me that anyone would try to shoot at the president, but i knew that somebody was shooting at something. i didn't know whether it was a real pistol or a real rifle--but i knew somebody was shooting a firearm. mr. belin. where did the shots appear to be coming from? mr. fischer. they appeared to be coming from just west of the school book depository building. there were some railroad tracks and there were some railroad cars back in there. mr. belin. and they appeared to be coming from those railroad cars? mr. fischer. well, that area somewhere. from where i was standing, i couldn't see the cars themselves until i had run across the street and up the hill. mr. belin. the shots seemed to be how far apart? mr. fischer. that's hard to say. i've been thinking about that. and-uh--i'd guess-- to seconds. mr. belin. was that between the first and the second or between the second and the third? mr. fischer. between both. as far as i can remember, the shots were evenly spaced. mr. belin. is there anything else about the shots that you remember? mr. fischer. no--only that they were very loud. mr. belin. anything else about the man in the window that you remember? mr. fischer. (pausing before reply.) no. mr. belin. all right. what did you do or see or hear after you hear the shots? mr. fischer. after the second shot we, bob and i both, started running down the sidewalk on elm street, on the south side of elm, and there were still people that were milling around and shuffling around. when the second shot broke, like i say, a lot of people started running, some people still stood but a lot of people started running. uh--and then when the third shot went off, we just almost reached the curb and then just as the limousine went under the triple underpass, we got to the street--elm street--where we could actually see--uh--well--where the shots had gone, and--uh--we ran across the street where there were a man, his wife and two children laying on the ground. now, that was on the north side of elm street about halfway between houston and the triple underpass and we ran down there where this man and his wife and two boys were. someone was helping them up off the ground, and the man said at that time that the president had been shot. and, after that, we stood there for or seconds and then we ran up to the top of the hill there where all the secret service men had run, thinking that that's where the bullets had come from since they seemed to be searching that area over there. they jumped off--out of cars and ran up the side of the hill there and onto the tracks where these passenger--freight cars were. mr. belin. anything else that you remember? mr. fischer. (pausing before reply.) no. mr. belin. what did you do after that, then? mr. fischer. after that, we went back up to the building where we work--the records building--and went on upstairs to the office. and that's where bob and i separated and--he had some things to do--i think he had some stuff that had to go down to another office and he left. after we got up there, he got some paper and then left. i stayed there for a little while and---- mr. belin. well, first of all, about when did you get back to the records building do you feel? mr. fischer. uh--it must have been -- minutes after the first shot was fired. something like that. mr. belin. all right. when you went back there, did you walk by the front of the texas school book depository building? mr. fischer. no; when we went back, we came--we went back the same way we came. we went straight across elm and then up to houston on the south side of elm, and then crossed. mr. belin. did you notice whether or not people were going in or coming out of the school book depository building? mr. fischer. there seemed to be a lot of people around--uh--the front; but, of course, there were a lot of people all over the street. mr. belin. all right. you got back up to the building--the records building--and then what did you do? mr. fischer. well, as i said, we went up to the fourth floor to our office. uh--i stayed there for or minutes. bob had left. and then i went next door in the purchasing department where they've got a radio. i was trying to--i didn't--i don't guess i really believed yet that it had happened--that the president had been shot. and--uh--i was trying to find out on the radio just exactly what did happen. and i stayed in the purchasing department minutes or so--well, or minutes, and then i went back down the hall where some people had a radio standing out in the hall. they had another station on, and still nobody knew anything. then, i went back to the office about--oh, maybe or minutes till , and-uh--we heard a bunch of sirens, police cars, and leaned out the window, and police cars were all surrounding the texas school book depository building. and when i saw all that and saw the detectives in the window, the officers, i knew that--i realized that the shots--that they must have the assassin in there or the man who did the shooting--or something was wrong with the building. so, i realized then that it possibly was the man i saw since he was the only one i remember in a window and that it had something to do with the building--that it's possible that the man i saw had something to do with it. about that time a deputy from the sheriff's office came up and asked me if i was ronald fischer, and i said, "yes;" and he said that sheriff decker wanted to see me in his office right now. mr. belin. about what time was this now? mr. fischer. this was at--oh-- o'clock on or about o'clock. mr. belin. you then went to sheriff decker's office? mr. fischer. i went to decker's office and--uh--bob edwards was in there. he looked up--and he had given them my name and told them--at least, this is what he told me--that he told them that we had both been standing there together and had seen this man in the window of the school book depository building. so, that's why they came to get me--because he had told them. there were a lot of other people in the office-- or other people. they all seemed to be connected with it in some way or another. and i noticed, too, in sheriff decker's office was this man and woman and two boys that we had talked to down the street there on elm that had hit the ground when the shots started. mr. belin. now, this man that you saw in the window--did he appear to be standing or sitting--or couldn't you tell? mr. fischer. he must not have been standing because i don't think the floor was that far away. he could have been standing--i'll take that back. he would have had to have been crouched over. he didn't look like he was crouched over or bent over. he must have been--i'm guessing--but i'm thinking he must have been on his knees or maybe sitting, on a box maybe. but he--i don't think that it's possible that he was standing. mr. belin. was he sitting or crouching, or whatever he was doing, in a straight-up position? mr. fischer. no; he was leaning forward slightly. mr. belin. about how far forward was he leaning--or couldn't you tell? mr. fischer. oh, it was slightly--enough to where i could tell, but--oh--his head wasn't out of the window and his head wasn't past the window sill. if he had been much further back in, it would have been hard for me to see him at all. mr. belin. now, sometime afterwards, you signed a written statement at the sheriff's office--is that it? mr. fischer. yes. mr. belin. and, later, did some policemen bring out a picture of an individual and ask you to try and identify him? mr. fischer. yes. mr. belin. did they tell you whose picture it was? mr. fischer. yes. mr. belin. whose picture did they say it was? mr. fischer. well, they actually showed me two pictures--one of lee harvey oswald, and one of jack ruby. mr. belin. all right. and what did you say? mr. fischer. i told them that that could have been the man. mr. belin. now, which one did you say could have been the man? mr. fischer. lee harvey oswald. that that could have been the man that i saw in the window of the school book depository building, but that i was not sure. it's possible that a man fit the general description that i gave--but i can't say for sure. mr. belin. was there anything different--do you remember the picture?--between the picture you saw and the man you saw in the window? mr. fischer. yes; one thing--and that is in the picture he looked like he hadn't shaved in several days at least. and--uh--i don't know whether at that distance, looking at him from the street in the school book depository building--if i could have been able to--if i could have seen that. i think, if he had been unshaven in the window, it would have made his complexion appear--well--rather dark; but i remember his complexion was light; that is, unless he had just a light beard. mr. belin. was the sun shining on his face when you saw him in the window or not--or don't you remember? mr. fischer. no; uh--no the sun wasn't shining on his face. he was back in the shadow of the window. mr. belin. when did the policeman come out with this picture--on the same day or on the next day? mr. fischer. no; it was--uh--no, it was several days after. i can't remember whether it was a week or weeks or--it was at least a week. i don't remember exactly when it was but it was a week, at least. mr. belin. let me ask you this: was there anything else different between the man you saw in the picture and the man you saw in the window? mr. fischer. (pausing before reply.) no. mr. belin. what about the color of his hair? do you remember what the color of the hair was of the man in the picture? mr. fischer. yes; it was brown. it was a darker shade of brown but it was definitely brown. mr. belin. what do you mean, "a darker shade of brown?" mr. fischer. well, it wasn't--it wasn't--uh--well, i guess there are a lot of shades of brown. but it wasn't--uh--it wasn't a light brown. it was a--in the picture it showed up as definitely a darker brown. i can't think of anything to compare it to. mr. belin. well, when you saw the man in the window, did he appear to have light brown hair, dark brown, medium brown--or what kind of hair did he have? mr. fischer. well, it wasn't dark and it wasn't light. uh--he didn't have black hair and he didn't have blonde hair. it--uh--must have been a brown but, like i say, there are a lot of different shades of brown and i'm not--i can't--it's hard for me to say just exactly what shade of brown i saw that he had. i know what shade he had in the picture but---- mr. belin. well, i hand you a copy of a statement which i believe--at least has the signature on it--and ask you to see if this looks like it's your signature? mr. fischer. [after perusing paper.] yes. mr. belin. all right. i'm going to call this "fischer deposition exhibit no. ," and ask you to read this statement, which appears to be dated november , , and ask you to state if there's anything in that statement that does not appear to be accurate. (thereupon, the statement of mr. fischer dated nov. , , is identified as "fischer deposition exhibit no. .) mr. fischer. you want me to read this now? mr. belin. you can just read it to yourself and then you can tell me when you get through whether or not there is anything in that statement that doesn't appear to be accurate. mr. fischer. [after reading exhibit no. .] that is correct. mr. belin. is this what you told these people there? mr. fischer. yes. mr. belin. now, in this statement it says that the man appeared to be in his twenties--is that what you told them? mr. fischer. yes. mr. belin. it says that all you could see was his head, now you've told me here today that you could see his chest? mr. fischer. yes; from the middle of his chest up. i could see his shoulders. uh--the man taking that particular piece of paper was a court reporter in the records building, and he didn't--he didn't relate--he had about of these things to take--well, yeah, or --however many people there were in the sheriff's office at that time. and he was, like i say, he was in a hurry to get it down and i said i could see his head--and, so, he put that down. and that is right. i could see his head. mr. belin. the statement here says that he was light-headed and that he had on an open-neck shirt. did he have an open-neck shirt on? mr. fischer. yes. mr. belin. now, what about being light-headed? mr. fischer. by "light-headed," i meant that he didn't have black hair. he didn't have dark--he didn't have--well, when i say "dark," i mean black. he didn't have black hair. he didn't have blonde hair. when i said, "light-headed," i didn't mean blonde--or i would have said that, but--uh. mr. belin. what color of hair did you mean? did you say "light-headed"? mr. fischer. i believe i did say "light-headed"--because i didn't--like i say--i didn't want it to appear that he was dark. mr. belin. by "dark," what color do you mean? mr. fischer. black. mr. belin. well, once again, i'll ask you, to the best of your recollection, what color hair did he have? mr. fischer. uh--like i say, it's too hard for me to--uh--to tell one way or the other. at the distance i was, uh--it's just--it's just too hard for me to--i'm not going to say it because i don't know for sure, just exactly what shade of hair he did have. it wasn't blonde and it wasn't black. somewhere in between. and it was a shade of brown that as to whether it was a dark brown, a light brown, a medium brown, or whatever you call it--i don't know. mr. belin. all right. the statement says that you saw him in the window there. do you remember how far the window was open? mr. fischer. the window was open almost all the way open if not, all the way open. mr. belin. by that "all the way"--when you have a window all the way open of that kind, of course, you just have a half of the window case that is open. is that correct? mr. fischer. that's right, you still have half an area of the opening covered by glass. mr. belin. was it the bottom area that was open or the top area? mr. fischer. the bottom area. the window looked to be--uh--a window that raised from the bottom up. mr. belin. and it appeared to be almost as fully open as you could, or fully open? mr. fischer. or fully open. yes--or i wouldn't have been able to see the cases and see past the top of his head had it not been--and his shoulders. mr. belin. now, on this written statement it says that you remember a tall girl walking into the school book depository building there at about the time you saw the man? mr. fischer. yes. mr. belin. did you see such a girl walk in the building? mr. fischer. i can't remember. it must have been before. it must have been just before--uh--i saw the man in the window. i can't remember very well. it's been too long. i believe it was before i saw the man in the window that i saw her walk into the building. like i say, i made a mental note of it but i didn't pay too much attention at the time. mr. belin. now, sometime later, after november , you were interviewed by the fbi. do you remember that? mr. fischer. yes; in the records building. mr. belin. and did the fbi man have any pictures with him at all, or not? mr. fischer. i don't remember whether he had pictures or not. it seems like he did. mr. belin. could you identify the man you saw in the window from any of the pictures? mr. fischer. uh--not--in fact, i believe they asked me--i believe they did have pictures of him. it seems like i recall them asking me if it could have been the picture that they identified as lee harvey oswald, or if it could have been the picture of jack ruby. mr. belin. now what did you say about the jack ruby picture? mr. fischer. i told them that i didn't think it could be him because--uh--he didn't--he didn't have near enough hair, it didn't look like to me. mr. belin. what about his build? mr. fischer. and that, too. his face was just a little--uh--fat; whereas-uh--oswald's picture was rather a slender face and neck. mr. belin. did the man you saw in the window have a high forehead or a low forehead--or do you remember? mr. fischer. i can't--i can't remember seeing that--uh--that well. i don't know if i could have--if i saw it now, whether i could tell you whether he had a large forehead or not. mr. belin. do you have any estimate of how far you were from that window when you saw him? mr. fischer. uh--from the point where i was standing when i saw him in the window to him, it must have been, i would say, at least a hundred feet. mr. belin. all right. now, did you ever tell anyone, or might you have told them, that you saw this person a minute or two before you saw the motorcade, rather than as you told us here today, or seconds before you first saw the motorcade? mr. fischer. yes. mr. belin. did you ever tell anyone it was a minute or two before you saw the motorcade? mr. fischer. well, i might have said "a minute or two" in just terms. i don't remember saying that but. mr. belin. but what is the---- mr. fischer. shortly before. mr. belin. shortly? mr. fischer. shortly before. mr. belin. do you definitely remember that it was this or seconds or so before you saw the motorcade, or might it have been a minute or two before you saw the motorcade? mr. fischer. i don't think it was over a minute. it could--it was less than a minute--because, as i recall, that's what--that's the reason i turned my attention from him and i looked back down the street. mr. belin. all right. is there anything else you can think of that bears on the assassination, or anything you saw or did or heard that you haven't related here? mr. fischer. (pausing before reply.) no. mr. belin. did you say "no"? mr. fischer. no--i can't think of anything. mr. belin. shortly before this interview began, you and i met for the first time--is that correct? mr. fischer. yes. mr. belin. and we first chatted a few minutes about what you saw before we started taking your testimony on the record? mr. fischer. yes. mr. belin. what is the fact as to whether or not i asked you to tell me your story or whether or not, instead, i asked you questions and tried to, in any way, lead you--or so forth? mr. fischer. i answered the questions as i think that i saw the events happen--as i saw the events happen. i was not quizzed on what to say or anything of that nature. i've merely related what i think that i saw. mr. belin. is there anything that you told me of before we started taking the deposition that has not been included in this deposition--that you can think of? mr. fischer. [pausing before reply.] no; not that i can think of. mr. belin. all right. i believe that ends the deposition. i want to thank you for your courtesy in coming here, mr. fischer. we appreciate your taking the time to do it. and we would also appreciate your conveying our appreciation to the dallas county auditor for letting you take this time off. will you do that, please? mr. fischer. yes; and thank you. testimony of robert edwin edwards the testimony of robert edwin edwards was taken at a.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. david w. belin, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. belin. would you stand and raise your right hand and be sworn, please. do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. edwards. i do. mr. belin. your name, please? mr. edwards. robert edwin edwards. mr. belin. where do you live, mr. edwards? mr. edwards. tahlequah, okla. mr. belin. what do you do up there? mr. edwards. i am going to school, college, northeastern state college. mr. belin. what year of school are you in? are you a freshman? mr. edwards. no; i am a senior. mr. belin. you are a senior. mr. edwards. right. mr. belin. you have been going up to school there for several years? mr. edwards. two years i went there. i laid out last year and worked here in dallas. mr. belin. are you originally from dallas? mr. edwards. no; graham, tex. mr. belin. where did you go to school? mr. edwards. graham high school in graham, tex. mr. belin. what did you do when you got out of school? mr. edwards. i attended abilene college. mr. belin. for a year? mr. edwards. one year. mr. belin. then what? mr. edwards. decatur baptist college, which is a junior college. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. edwards. northeastern state college in tahlequah, okla. mr. belin. laid out last year? mr. edwards. yes; i am finishing up this semester. mr. belin. what did you do last fall? mr. edwards. i worked at the courthouse there. mr. belin. is that the dallas county courthouse? mr. edwards. right. mr. belin. where is that located? mr. edwards. let's say down on main. i guess that would be sufficient. mr. belin. main street? mr. edwards. right. mr. belin. what street crosses there, do you remember? mr. edwards. well, you mean--give me a multiple choice and i will tell you. mr. belin. harwood? mr. edwards. no. mr. belin. record? mr. edwards. right. mr. belin. what about elm? houston street? mr. edwards. it runs right behind it, if i am not mistaken. mr. belin. were you working on the day the president came to dallas? mr. edwards. that's correct. mr. belin. that was november , , i believe on a friday, is that correct? mr. edwards. that's correct. mr. belin. did you have lunch before the motorcade came by or not? mr. edwards. yes; i did. mr. belin. were you with anyone? mr. edwards. ronald fischer. mr. belin. ronald fischer. did he work with you in that office? mr. edwards. yes; he did. mr. belin. what were you doing there? by the way, what was your job? mr. edwards. just a utility clerk. mr. belin. what did you do after lunch? mr. edwards. came back and worked. i don't know exactly what time. for a little while until it was time for the president to come by, and then we left. mr. belin. where did you go? mr. edwards. sir? mr. belin. where did you go? you say you left. where did you go? mr. edwards. you mean left the office? mr. belin. yes. mr. edwards. down on--i get the streets mixed up. let's see, it would be houston. mr. belin. houston? mr. edwards. yes; i guess it would be houston across the street in the little park right across from the courthouse, straight across from, facing the depository. mr. belin. well, let me ask you this now. mr. edwards. that is elm, i guess that is what it is. i guess that is elm street. mr. belin. when you used the word "depository," what building do you mean? mr. edwards. texas school book depository. mr. belin. texas school book depository building? mr. edwards. that building is at the corner of elm and houston, isn't it? houston comes this way? mr. belin. well, houston, i believe, runs in a north-south direction. elm runs in a east-west direction. would a map help you at all? mr. edwards. yes. mr. belin. let me see if i can get one for you here. i am handing you a portion of a map. you see houston street here on this map? mr. edwards. yes. mr. belin. and you see elm street running this way, and the arrow pointing north, so houston runs north and south. mr. edwards. where do you put the courthouse? mr. belin. the courthouse would be off this strip of map, but that is elm and here is houston. this little black square would be the texas school book depository building. mr. edwards. it would have to be houston and elm. mr. belin. here is elm going in the parkway here. do you see that right there? mr. edwards. yes. mr. belin. all right, main street would be running toward the bottom of the map? mr. edwards. yes; it was here. mr. belin. you are putting your finger at the point which would be to the west of houston street and to the south of elm as it goes into the parkway, is that right? you see the arrow pointing northwest would be to your left on the map, and you are going to be west of houston street and south of elm going in the parkway, is that correct? mr. edwards. yes; i would be over here, right over here. mr. belin. here is the parkway. can you see it upside down here? let's see if i can show you a picture. mr. edwards. i am sorry. i don't have a picture. mr. belin. here is a map and on the map north is shown with an arrow. you see it right here? mr. edwards. yes. mr. belin. mr. edwards, have you now located yourself on this map? mr. edwards. yes; i have. mr. belin. all right, where were you located? mr. edwards. i guess i would plant myself right there. mr. belin. you are planting yourself now at a spot which would be on the west side of houston street near that entrance of elm street into the parkway there, and you would be facing in a northerly direction toward the school book depository building, is that correct? mr. edwards. that's correct. mr. belin. who were you standing with? mr. edwards. ronald fischer. mr. belin. what time did you get there? mr. edwards. i don't know. mr. belin. how long before the motorcade came by, if you know? mr. edwards. where is that little paper and i will tell you. mr. belin. can you remember without looking at any paper right now? mr. edwards. no; not really. i can guess. mr. belin. what is your best guess? we will understand that it is just a guess. mr. edwards. maybe i'd better not guess. mr. belin. all right, if you don't care to guess, that is fine. we would prefer that you not make any statement unless you feel fairly sure about it. what did you do when you got to this point? mr. edwards. stood there and waited for the motorcade to come. mr. belin. did you look around at all? mr. edwards. certainly. mr. belin. did you ever take a look at the south side of the texas school book depository building? that would be facing--you would be looking at the south side of the building? mr. edwards. yes. mr. belin. did you ever look at that at all? mr. edwards. yes. mr. belin. before the motorcade came by? mr. edwards. yes. mr. belin. what did you see? mr. edwards. nothing of importance except maybe one individual who was up there in the corner room of the sixth floor which was crowded in among boxes. mr. belin. you say on the sixth floor? mr. edwards. yes. mr. belin. what portion of the sixth floor as you looked at the building to your right or to your left? mr. edwards. to my right. mr. belin. how near the corner? mr. edwards. the corner window. mr. belin. the corner window there? mr. edwards. right. mr. belin. could you describe this individual at all? was he a white man or a negro? mr. edwards. white man. mr. belin. tall or short, if you know? mr. edwards. i couldn't say. mr. belin. did he have anything in his hand at all that you could see? mr. edwards. no. mr. belin. could you see his hands? mr. edwards. i don't remember. mr. belin. what kind of clothes did he have on? mr. edwards. light colored shirt, short sleeve and open neck. mr. belin. how much of him could you see? shoulder up, waist up, knees up, or what? mr. edwards. from the waist on. from the abdomen or stomach up. mr. belin. was the man fat, thin, or average in size? mr. edwards. oh, about average. possibly thin. mr. belin. could you tell whether he was light skinned or medium skin or what, if you could tell? mr. edwards. no. mr. belin. was the sun shining in or not, if you know? mr. edwards. don't know. mr. belin. was the sun out that day? mr. edwards. yes. mr. belin. what color hair did the man have? mr. edwards. light brown. mr. belin. light brown hair? mr. edwards. that is what i would say; yes, sir. mr. belin. did you see any other people on the sixth floor? mr. edwards. no. mr. belin. did you notice whether or not there were any, or just did you look and see any? mr. edwards. i notice that there--i just didn't see any. mr. belin. what about the next floor above? did you see any people on the floor above? mr. edwards. no. mr. belin. what about on any floors below? see any people on the fifth floor? mr. edwards. no. mr. belin. fourth floor? mr. edwards. no. mr. belin. third floor? mr. edwards. possibly. mr. belin. second floor? mr. edwards. i believe so. mr. belin. first floor? mr. edwards. i don't know. mr. belin. all right, now, you signed an affidavit for the sheriff's department where you stated that you saw a man at the window on the fifth floor, and the window was wide open all the way, and there was a stack of books around him, i could see. and you just told me you didn't see a man on the fifth floor. was that affidavit correct or not? mr. edwards. that is incorrect. that has been straightened out since. mr. belin. what do you mean it has been straightened out? mr. edwards. well, they discussed it with me later and i took that back. that was the fbi. it was the sixth floor, though. mr. belin. how do you know it was the sixth floor? sixth floor rather than the fifth floor? mr. edwards. i went with them and i showed them the window, and i didn't count the bottom floor. mr. belin. you mean the first time when you made the affidavit you didn't count the bottom floor? mr. edwards. that's right. mr. belin. when you went out with the fbi, they asked you to point out the window? mr. edwards. right. mr. belin. and you pointed out the same window you saw on november ? mr. edwards. yes, sir. mr. belin. then you weren't counting the bottom floor? mr. edwards. they did. mr. belin. did you watch them count? mr. edwards. yes. mr. belin. do you remember how many floors from the top it was? mr. edwards. i think seven in all, seven floors. it is next to the top. mr. belin. do you know whether or not the hair of the man was short, average, or long on the man that you saw in the window that day? mr. edwards. don't know. mr. belin. now what conversation did you and ronald fischer have about this man, if anything? do you remember what he said? mr. edwards. i made a statement to ronny that i wondered who he was hiding from since he was up there crowded in among the boxes, in a joking manner. mr. belin. you mean you said it in a joking manner? mr. edwards. yes. mr. belin. what did fischer say to you? mr. edwards. i don't recall what he said, but i know that we said a few things. it wasn't of any importance at the time. and we looked up at him, both of us. mr. belin. how long did you look at him? mr. edwards. just a few seconds. mr. belin. then what took your attention away, if any, or did you just start looking somewhere else? mr. edwards. started looking somewhere else. mr. belin. how long after that did the motorcade come by? mr. edwards. thirty seconds or a minute. mr. belin. anything else that you can remember that you or ronald fischer said? mr. edwards. no. mr. belin. anything else you can think of that might be relevant at all? mr. edwards. no. mr. belin. how many shots did you hear, if you remember? mr. edwards. well, i heard one more then than was fired, i believe. mr. belin. you mean you said on the affidavit you heard four shots? mr. edwards. i still right now don't know how many was fired. if i said four, then i thought i heard four. mr. belin. if you said four, you mean the affidavit--maybe we'd better introduce it into the record as edward's deposition exhibit a. where do you think the shots came from? mr. edwards. i have no idea. mr. belin. in the affidavit you stated that the shots seemed to come from the building there. did you really say that or not? mr. edwards. no; i didn't say that. mr. belin. all right, anything else you can think of? mr. edwards. no. mr. belin. i want to thank you for coming down here. you have an opportunity, if you want, to come back and read this deposition and sign it, or else you can waive the signing and reading of it and it will be sent directly to washington by the court reporter. it makes no difference to us. you can read and sign or can waive reading and signing. mr. edwards. i don't want to make an extra trip. mr. belin. do you want to waive it then? mr. edwards. yes. mr. belin. thank you, sir. testimony of mrs. jean lollis hill the testimony of mrs. jean lollis hill was taken at : p.m., on march , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. arlen specter, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. specter. may the record show that mrs. jean lollis hill is present at this moment in response to a letter request that she appear and give a deposition to the president's commission investigating the assassination of president kennedy. may i say for the record, mrs. hill, that the commission is investigating all of the facts relating to the shooting and, and we have asked you to appear here today to tell us what you know, if anything, relating to the actual assassination, because we understand you were on the scene or nearby at that time. may the record further reflect that mrs. hill was sent a letter under date of march , . with that preliminary statement, i will ask you, mrs. hill, to stand and raise your right hand, if you will please. do you solemnly swear that the testimony you shall give before the president's commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mrs. hill. i do. mr. specter. will you be seated, please, mrs. hill? and would you state your full name for the record? mrs. hill. jean lollis hill. mr. specter. mrs. hill, have you received a letter request? mrs. hill. yes, sir; i have. mr. specter. under date of march , ? mrs. hill. i have it here. mr. specter. well, when did you see that letter request? mrs. hill. well, i guess i got it or days afterward--march --so i must have gotten it monday--no; i couldn't have gotten it yesterday--i got it saturday. mr. specter. that would have been march ? mrs. hill. that's right. mr. specter. all right. may the record show that a court reporter is present and is taking verbatim transcript of the deposition of mrs. hill, with the court reporter, mrs. hill, and myself being present, and that all of the report is being transcribed and has been transcribed from the time mrs. hill arrived, is that correct, mrs. hill? mrs. hill. that is correct. mr. specter. where were you on the day of november , , at about noontime? mrs. hill. i was standing directly across from the texas school depository building on a grassy slope and the triangle toward the underpass. mr. specter. and that would have been dealey plaza? mrs. hill. if that's what the name of it is. mr. specter. now, would that be on the---- mrs. hill. it was to the left of the motorcade. mr. specter. to the left of the motorcade as the motorcade proceeded forward? mrs. hill. that's right. mr. specter. so, you would have been on the south side of elm street? mrs. hill. that's right. mr. specter. now, what had you done immediately before noontime, mrs. hill? mrs. hill. we had been there for about an hour and a half and had been walking up and down and back and forth. mr. specter. when you say "we" whom do you mean by that? mrs. hill. my friend, mary moorman, that took the picture. mr. specter. she had a camera with her? mrs. hill. yes; a polaroid. we had been taking pictures all morning. mr. specter. and did you have a camera with you? mrs. hill. no. mr. specter. and tell me what you observed as the president's motorcade passed by? mrs. hill. you mean---- mr. specter. start any place that you find most convenient and just tell me in your own way what happened. mrs. hill. well, as they came toward us, we had been taking pictures with this polaroid camera and since it was a polaroid we knew we had only one chance to get a picture, and at the time she had taken a picture just a few minutes before and i had grabbed it out of the camera and wrapped it and put it in my pocket. just about that time he drew even with us. mr. specter. and when you say "he" you mean? mrs. hill. the president's car. we were standing on the curb and i jumped to the edge of the street and yelled, "hey, we want to take your picture," to him and he was looking down in the seat--he and mrs. kennedy and their heads were turned toward the middle of the car looking down at something in the seat, which later turned out to be the roses, and i was so afraid he was going to look the other way because there were a lot of people across the street and we were, as far as i know, we were the only people down there in that area, and just as i yelled, "hey," to him, he started to bring his head up to look at me and just as he did the shot rang out. mary took the picture and fell on the ground and of course there were more shots. mr. specter. how many shots were there altogether? mrs. hill. i have always said there were some four to six shots. there were three shots--one right after the other, and a distinct pause, or just a moment's pause, and then i heard more. mr. specter. how long a time elapsed from the first to the third of what you described as the first three shots? mrs. hill. they were rapidly--they were rather rapidly fired. mr. specter. could you give me an estimate on the timespan on those three shots? mrs. hill. no; i don't think i can. mr. specter. now, how many shots followed what you described as the first three shots? mrs. hill. i think there were at least four or five shots and perhaps six, but i know there were more than three. mr. specter. now, much time elapsed from the very first shot until the very last shot, will you estimate? mrs. hill. i don't think i could, properly, but my girl friend fell on the ground after about--during the shooting--right, i would say, just immediately after she had taken the picture--probably about the third shot. she fell on the ground and grabbed my slacks and said, "get down, they're shooting." and, i knew they were but i was too stunned to move, so i didn't get down. i just stood there and gawked around. mr. specter. can't you give me any better idea on the sequence of the shots other than to say that there were three shots right in a row and then a moment's pause and an additional shot or shots. mrs. hill. in what way? mr. specter. is there any way you could be more specific by way of time lapses among any of the shots, from the first to the second shot, the second to the third, or in that manner? mrs. hill. the three were fired as though one person were firing; i mean, to me. they were fired just like you could reload and fire again or whatever you do with a gun. mr. specter. with what sort of an action? mrs. hill. i think that the firing that was done could have been done with the type gun that they say the assassinator used. mr. specter. and what type gun was that, according to your understanding? mrs. hill. a bolt action. mr. specter. and how about the shots that followed the three shots, then, what would the sequence of timing have been on those? mrs. hill. i thought they were different--i thought the sequence was different. mr. specter. how will you describe the sequence? mrs. hill. quicker--more automatic. mr. specter. were there as few as four, as you recollected? mrs. hill. i won't say positively, i think i can still seemingly hear it, and i would still say there were more, you know, i'm saying to . i know there were at least , and i just almost swear that i heard or . mr. specter. could there have been more than that you heard? mrs. hill. i couldn't say that i heard more than that. mr. specter. could you say for certain that you did not hear more than that? mrs. hill. yes; i didn't hear any more than that. mr. specter. what was the position of the president, as best you recollect it, at the time the first shot was heard by you? mrs. hill. he was slightly turned, he was sitting back in the seat, like turned toward mrs. kennedy and his head was down, and his hands were like this (indicating). mr. specter. his hands were in his lap? mrs. hill. no--not really. mr. specter. how would you describe the position of his hands? mrs. hill. he was sitting here [indicating] and mrs. kennedy--he was like this [indicating]. mr. specter. you are indicating the right hand on the left knee? mrs. hill. yes. mr. specter. with the body turned slightly toward the person on his left? mrs. hill. yes. mr. specter. who would have been mrs. kennedy? mrs. hill. yes. mr. specter. and were you watching him at this time? mrs. hill. yes, i was looking right at his face. mr. specter. and what reaction, if any, did he have at the time of the first shot? mrs. hill. as i said, i had yelled at him and he had started to raise his head up and i saw his head start to come up and all at once a bullet rang out and he slumped forward like this [indicating]. mr. specter. lurched or slumped, as you say, to the left? mrs. hill. yes. mr. specter. did his head drop down? mrs. hill. yes; he was just, you know, slumping down like this. mr. specter. did you have a chance to see anything of governor connally at that exact second? mrs. hill. there was a scrambling around in the front seat. i didn't know who was riding with him, i hadn't paid any attention to who was riding with him in the car, but i never did see mrs. connally. i guess my story is probably colored by what i have heard. mr. specter. tell me what you have heard that you think maybe that colored your story? mrs. hill. about what the connallys say about the shots, which shots hit where and everything. mr. specter. what is that that you have heard? mrs. hill. well, i have heard that shot hit kennedy and also hit connally, that the same shot that hit kennedy hit connally. mr. specter. where did you hear that, mrs. hill? mrs. hill. i don't know. mr. specter. what else have you heard? mrs. hill. and also that mrs. connally jumped up and covered mr. connally with her body and pushed him to the floor, but i never did see mrs. connally. mr. specter. did you ever see governor connally? mrs. hill. yes; i did see him; i didn't know who he was, but i did see him and i knew that someone had been hit. mr. specter. where was he pushed in the car? mrs. hill. well, i just vaguely know that he was toward the front. mr. specter. well, was he in the front seat of the ear or was he between president kennedy and the front seat of the car, or where was he? mrs. hill. between president kennedy? mr. specter. you know that there were jump seats in the car so that there would have been people sitting three positions forward, one in the back seat--president kennedy and mrs. kennedy, on the right in the jump seat--governor connally and mrs. connally and in the front seat, two secret service agents--people sitting three positions forward? mrs. hill. i saw the secret service agents. mr. specter. had you been, prior to the time i told you just now, familiar with that arrangement of the personnel in the car? mrs. hill. yes; i knew that, and as i said, i didn't know who the people were in the car because i am new here--i don't know the connallys, i just knew that people were in the car. mr. specter. did you notice the person sitting in the jump seat on the right-hand side, that would be the person immediately in front of president kennedy? mrs. hill. well, i would say it was mr. connally. mr. specter. did you observe him at any specific time? mrs. hill. i saw a man fall to the floor. mr. specter. and when, in point of time, did you see him fall? mrs. hill. after the president was shot, but i wouldn't--it wasn't with the first shot. to me he wasn't hit when the first shot hit. mr. specter. and what is the basis for your saying that, mrs. hill? mrs.. hill. well, i just think that he was hit after kennedy was hit because, well, just the way that it looked, i would say that he was hit later. mr. specter. now, do you associate the time that governor connally appeared to have been hit with any specific shot that you heard? mrs. hill. the second. mr. specter. and what specifically did you observe at the time of the second shot? mrs. hill. well, that's what i thought had happened--that they had hit someone in the front part of the car. mr. specter. and what did you observe at the time of the third shot? mrs. hill. president kennedy was hit again and he had further buffeted his body and i didn't realize at the time what it was--i remarked to my friends in the police station that day--did she notice his hair standing up, because it did. it just rippled up like this. mr. specter. and at what time was that? mrs. hill. on the third shot. mr. specter. did you notice governor connally at the time of the third shot? mrs. hill. i never saw him again. mr. specter. what occurred at the time of the fourth shot which you believe you heard? mrs. hill. well, at that time, of course, there was a pause and i took the other shots--about that time mary grabbed me and was yelling and i had looked away from what was going on here and i thought, because i guess from the tv and movies, that it was secret service agents shooting back. to me, if somebody shoots at somebody they always shoot back and so i just thought that that's what it was and i thought, well, they are getting him and shooting back, you know; i didn't know. mr. specter. where was the president's car at the time you thought you heard the fourth shot? mrs. hill. the motorcade came to almost a halt at the time the shots rang out, and i would say it was just approximately, if not--it couldn't have been in the same position, i'm sure it wasn't, but just a very, very short distance from where it had been. it was just almost stunned. mr. specter. and how about the time of the fifth shot, where do you think the president's car was? mrs. hill. that was during those shots, i think it wasn't any further than a few feet--further down. mr. specter. which shots, now--you mean the fourth, and perhaps the fifth and perhaps the sixth shot? mrs. hill. yes. mr. specter. are you able to say what anyone was doing or what events were occurring at the time of the fourth through perhaps the sixth shots which you have testified about? mrs. hill. well, as i said, at that time she was yelling at me and on the ground. mr. specter. who was yelling at you? mrs. hill. mary, my friend, was yelling at me and she was down on the ground and i looked up and i could see everyone was just stunned, there was immobility all around and i just stood there looking around and i'm sure there wasn't a pause--it seemed like an eternity but i'm sure there was just a slight pause before things started moving again. mr. specter. were the shots over by that time when things started moving again? mrs. hill. yes. mr. specter. then what happened on the scene? mrs. hill. well, they say mrs. kennedy climbed up on the back of the car. mr. specter. did you observe that? mrs. hill. no; i have seen pictures that show that she must have, but i ran across the street. mr. specter. to the---- mrs. hill. other side. mr. specter. north side of elm street? mrs. hill. that's right. i saw a man up there running, or getting away or walking away or something--i would say he was running. mr. specter. where was that man when you first saw him? mrs. hill. he was right up there by the school depository, just--not at the corner where they say the shots came from, at the other end, right up on the slope at the top of the slope. mr. specter. would that be in front of the school book depository building? mrs. hill. yes. mr. specter. at the west end? mrs. hill. more to the west end. mr. specter. would it be between the westernmost point of the building and some other point in the building? was he at the westernmost point or farther east than the westernmost point? mrs. hill. i would say he was farther east than the westernmost point. mr. specter. would you draw a diagram for me in rough outline, starting with houston street---- mrs. hill. yes; but i can't do this very well. mr. specter. permit me to draw an outline, then, to get your bearing here and realizing that i want your recollection, and i'll ask you the questions. assume that houston street is the street which i am marking houston. assume that this is main street. assume that elm street curves down in the manner that i am drawing and marking. mrs. hill. all right. mr. specter. assume that the texas school book depository is this large building which i will mark "tsbd." now, would you place with the letter "a" where you were at the time the president went by? mrs. hill. well, i would have to place the president first. mr. specter. fine--place him with the letter "x". mrs. hill. all right--if he were here---- mr. specter. now, was he in the center of the street or on the side of the street? mrs. hill. he was on the side--he wasn't just completely over there, but he was past the center of the street and we were---- mr. specter. now, place yourself with the letter "a". mrs. hill. right there [indicating]. mr. specter. make it a big printed "a" for us. mrs. hill. okay. [complied with request of counsel specter.] mr. specter. now, would you place the position you ran to after the president's car went by? mrs. hill. by that time, i'm sure the car was here--it was on down a little way, and i ran behind here. mr. specter. draw a line to where you ran. mrs. hill. all right--i don't know whether i've got this just right--but i ran approximately right up through here. mr. specter. put a "b" here where you were when you came to a stop on the other side of the street. mrs. hill. these steps. mr. specter. now, where were you when you first noticed the---- mrs. hill. these steps that go up--i guess you've looked at the site, there are some steps down there that go up to that promenade, or whatever you call it. mr. specter. that go in a generally westerly direction? mrs. hill. yes. mr. specter. beyond the texas school book depository building? mrs. hill. yes; and i was just on this side---- mr. specter. "this side"--you are meaning--the east of it? mrs. hill. the east of it. mr. specter. were you beyond the westernmost point of the texas school book depository building? mrs. hill. no. mr. specter. you were still in front of that building? mrs. hill. that's right. mr. specter. now, is the letter "b" now in the position where you were when you first saw that man? mrs. hill. yes. mr. specter. where was that man, indicating with the letter "c," where he was? he was very close to you? mrs. hill. well, he was at the top of this hill--you don't leave me any space in here--i mean, there's a distance in here greater than what is shown here. mr. specter. he was between elm street and the depository building? mrs. hill. yes. mr. specter. and where did you see him going? mrs. hill. i saw him go toward the tracks, toward the railroad tracks to the west? mr. specter. what did you observe about that man, if anything? mrs. hill. that he just had on a brown overcoat and a hat. mr. specter. why was your attention attracted to him? mrs. hill. because he was the only thing moving up there. the other people were all grief stricken and standing there and i don't know what i would have done with him when i got up there, but i don't know why i even had the instinct to run, and i don't know that it is anything even connected with this, but since i had already--i have told it and it is part of my recollection, i am just stating it again. mr. specter. well, was there anything about the man that attracted your attention to him beside the fact that he was moving? mrs. hill. i just thought at the time--that's the man that did it. mr. specter. why did you think that this was the man that did it? mrs. hill. i just don't know--i mean--that was my thought. mr. specter. did you see any weapon in his hand? mrs. hill. no; i never saw a weapon during the whole time, in anyone's hand. mr. specter. did you see that man from the front? mrs. hill. as well as i remember, now, when i saw him he was turning and going to the west. mr. specter. was he in the process of turning when you first saw him? mrs. hill. yes; i would say he was turning. mr. specter. so that you had some view of his front part of his body? mrs. hill. yes. mr. specter. and did you see any weapon at that time? mrs. hill. no, sir; he was three-fourths turned by the time i did see him. mr. specter. could you see both of his hands at that time? mrs. hill. no. mr. specter. could you see one of his hands at that time? mrs. hill. no; i do not even remember seeing his hands. mr. specter. i mean, if he was turning, his hands would have been visible, wouldn't they? mrs. hill. they surely would have been. mr. specter. so, what you are saying is, you don't have any recollection of seeing his hands? mrs. hill. i have no recollection--that's right. mr. specter. but from the position of his body, his hands would have been in the position where they could have been observed? mrs. hill. that's right--surely. mr. specter. and do you have any recollection of observing any weapon in either hand? mrs. hill. no; i never saw a weapon the whole time. mr. specter. had you moved from point "a" at the time you first saw him? mrs. hill. that's the reason i ran across the street. mr. specter. did you see him while you were at point "a"? mrs. hill. do you mean prior to the shots? yes; i saw him, that's the reason why i went across the street. mr. specter. so, you saw him when you were at point "a"? mrs. hill. that's right--that's the reason i left that spot. mr. specter. and he was at point "c" when you first saw him? mrs. hill. that's right. mr. specter. did he move before you moved? mrs. hill. his moving made me start after him. mr. specter. so, he did move before you moved? mrs. hill. yes; and as i came across the street--as i said--i never did see mrs. kennedy get up or anything, because when i ran across the street, the first motorcycle that was right behind her nearly hit me turning around, because i looked up in his face and he was looking all around. mr. specter. you mean the policeman? mrs. hill. yes; and i don't think he ever did see me. i just looked at him and dodged then because i thought his wheel was going to hit me, and i don't think he ever did see me, and i ran across through there and started up the hill. when i looked down on the ground, i mean, as i was running up the hill to catch that man, i looked down and saw some red stuff and i thought, "oh, they got him, he's bleeding," and this is embarrassing, but it turned out to be koolade or some sort of red drink. mr. specter. you thought they had gotten the man who was running away? mrs. hill. yes. mr. specter. you thought that perhaps the second burst of shots you heard were being directed toward him by the secret service? mrs. hill. i just thought, "oh, goodness, the secret service is shooting back." mr. specter. can you describe what that man looked like? mrs. hill. he wasn't---- mr. specter. how tall was he? mrs. hill. he wasn't very tall. mr. specter. was he more than feet tall, or can you give me any meaningful description of him? mrs. hill. well, yes; but i don't want to. mr. specter. why is that? mrs. hill. well, because i had told several people and i also said it that day down there and the person that i described, and i am fully aware that his whereabouts have been known at all times, and that it seems that i am merely using a figure and converting it to my story, but the person that i saw looked a lot like--i would say the general build as i would think jack ruby would from that position. but i have talked with the fbi about this and i told them i realized that his whereabouts had been covered at all times and of course i didn't--at that time i didn't realize that the shots were coming from the building. i frankly thought they were coming from the knoll. mr. specter. why did you think they were coming from the knoll? mrs. hill. that was just my idea where they were coming from. mr. specter. would you draw the knoll on the picture, where you mean by the knoll? mrs. hill. this area in front of the book depository--it's right here. mr. specter. just draw me a circle as to where you had a general impression the shots were coming from. mrs. hill. this is a hill and it was like they were coming from right in there. that's when i looked up and saw that man and all the rest of the people were stunned and not moving in that area and yet he was getting out of there--i thought that probably he had done it, and so i went to catch him, for some reason. mr. specter. now, did you have a conscious impression of the source of the first shot that you heard, that is, where it came from? mrs. hill. well, evidently i didn't because the only conscious recollection i have of that--i mean--until all this other came out--i had always thought that they came from the knoll. mr. specter. did you have any conscious impression of where the second shot came from? mrs. hill. no. mr. specter. any conscious impression of where this third shot came from? mrs. hill. not any different from any of them. i thought it was just people shooting from the knoll--i did think there was more than one person shooting. mr. specter. you did think there was more than one person shooting? mrs. hill. yes, sir. mr. specter. what made you think that? mrs. hill. the way the gun report sounded and the difference in the way they were fired--the timing. mr. specter. what was your impression as to the source of the second group of shots which you have described as the fourth, perhaps the fifth, and perhaps the sixth shot? mrs. hill. well, nothing, except that i thought that they were fired by someone else. mr. specter. and did you have any idea where they were coming from? mrs. hill. no; as i said, i thought they were coming from the general direction of that knoll. mr. specter. well, did you think that the secret service was firing them from that knoll? mrs. hill. i said i didn't know--i really don't. mr. specter. you just had the general impression that shots were coming from the knoll? mrs. hill. yes. mr. specter. and you had the general impression that the secret service was firing the second group of shots at the man who fired the first group of shots? mrs. hill. that's right. mr. specter. but you had no specific impression as to the source of those shots? mrs. hill. no. mr. specter. did you get a very good look at that man, who you say was starting to run? mrs. hill. well, as i said, when i looked down at this red stuff on the ground, i said, "oh," you know, to myself, "they hit him." you know, i was going to follow that, and when i looked up again, i looked all around and i couldn't see him anywhere and i kept running toward the train tracks and i looked all around out there and i couldn't see him--i looked everywhere and i heard someone yelling something about--it was just this voice that was yelling, "it looks like he got away," or something--i thought i had been right, you know, that he had really gone up there and he had gotten away some way in the tracks or had gone around behind the depository, and so, i didn't know where he had gone. by that time i saw policemen--where he had gone. by that time i saw policemen--some were coming off of their motorcycles just around the curb here--just at the underpass here, and of course, the motorcade sped away and the policemen were coming from all sorts of different directions, people were closing in, and all i could think of was, "i want to get out of here fast. i don't want to be caught by anybody. i don't want to be in on anything," and everytime anybody would come toward me i would go another way until i got off of that hill back up there where the tracks were. mr. specter. did you run up toward the hill? mrs. hill. yes; i ran up toward the railroad tracks. mr. specter. let me draw the triple underpass there, and you ran up to what point--where? about the point of "d" here? mrs. hill. yes. mr. specter. why did you run up there--after the man? mrs. hill. i was still looking for him. i didn't know where he had gone. i heard lots of people yelling, "did he get away, did he get away, and which way did he go." mr. specter. you were trying to catch him? mrs. hill. yes. mr. specter. but you couldn't find him any more? mrs. hill. no; i just couldn't find him again. when i stopped to look down at the grass, at this red stuff and when i looked back up, by that time everyone was screaming and moving around. mr. specter. and where were you when you looked down at the ground? point it out to me on the diagram. mrs. hill. the steps that go up to this colonnade thing right there and i saw it right about here. mr. specter. well, mark it with the letter "e" there. mrs. hill. all right. mr. specter. now, a moment ago you said you didn't want to say anything more about the identity of the man. why did you tell me that, mrs. hill? mrs. hill. well, because i have had an awful lot of fun made of me over being a witness in this and i'm real tired of it. mr. specter. who made fun of you? mrs. hill. well, quite a lot of people. mr. specter. anybody connected with the official investigation in the case? mrs. hill. no, oh, no; it was just people, but people that i know. mr. specter. all right, and why have they made fun of you, because of your identification of who that man was? mrs. hill. yes. mr. specter. any other reason? mrs. hill. yes--i saw a dog in the car. they kept asking me, and i even gave that out on a radio or tv interview that i had seen a dog in the car. mr. specter. in which car? mrs. hill. between the president and mrs. kennedy, and they kept asking me what kind of a dog and i said, "i don't know, i wasn't interested in what was in the seat," but i said, "it was white and fuzzy," and i said, "it was something white and kind of fuzzy and it was in the seat between them," and i said, "i just got to thinking--it must be a small dog," because i had remarked to my girl friend as they were taking us in the police station, i said, "why?" i said, "i could see liz taylor or the gabors traveling with a bunch of dogs, but i can't see the kennedys traveling with dogs. why would they have a dog with them on tour?" and, when we remarked about that she and i both--and i said, "did you see it? what kind of a dog was it? why were they taking a dog?" i found out later that it was those roses in the seat, but i knew they were looking at something and i just barely glanced and i saw this. mr. specter. is there any other reason people made fun of you? mrs. hill. well, basically, the people that made fun of me was my husband, and, of course, that was because--does this have to go in the record? mr. specter. yes; only in the sense that we are putting everything on the record. this really isn't too important but it is the best procedure to follow, that everything be written down. mrs. hill. well. mr. specter. in a situation of this sort. mrs. hill. well, because i talked with an oklahoma twang, and called mrs. kennedy "jackie" and i said, "he pitched forward in jackie's lap," and i just didn't rehearse it and do it right at all, because i didn't know it was going to be taken down. mr. specter. and those are the reasons your husband made fun of you? mrs. hill. yes; and because i saw a dog and he was thoroughly hilarious when he found out that it was roses in the back seat and that i had seen a dog, and he said, "of all people in the united states you would have to see a dog." mr. specter. has anybody made fun of you besides your husband? mrs. hill. no; not really, but he's done enough for a whole bunch of people. mr. specter. now, going back to the question of the description of this man, can you describe him in any more detail than you already have? mrs. hill. no; i haven't--i can't. mr. specter. his height you said was about the height of jack ruby? mrs. hill. that's right. mr. specter. how about his weight? mrs. hill. that's the only thing--i would say--he certainly wasn't any bigger than jack ruby. mr. specter. was he smaller than jack ruby? mrs. hill. he could have been smaller. mr. specter. how about--was he wearing a hat? mrs. hill. yes; i said he was wearing a hat. mr. specter. was he wearing a top coat? mrs. hill. yes; an overcoat. mr. specter. and was he wearing a tie, could you tell? mrs. hill. i didn't notice. it was a brown, i mean, i just got the impression of a brown hat. mr. specter. can you give me an estimate of his age? mrs. hill. i would say the man was middle aged, or say, i would say . mr. specter. was he a white man or a negro? mrs. hill. he was a white man. mr. specter. can you describe him in any other way to me? mrs. hill. no; i can't. mr. specter. do you think he was, in fact, jack ruby? mrs. hill. that, i don't know. mr. specter. now, have you told me all that you can recollect about this man and your reason for moving toward him? mrs. hill. yes, as far as i know. mr. specter. now, you were at point "d," what did you do after being at point "d," which we have marked on the diagram? mrs. hill. well, as i said, the policemen were coming by that time from different areas, coming and closing this place off, and i was dodging them, trying to get back across the street. mr. specter. back across elm street? mrs. hill. that's right. mr. specter. and did you in fact dodge them? mrs. hill. yes. mr. specter. and get back across elm street? mrs. hill. yes. mr. specter. and what, if anything, did you do next? mrs. hill. there was a man holding mary's arm and she was crying and he had hold of her camera trying to take it with him. mr. specter. who was that? mrs. hill. featherstone of the times herald, and---- mr. specter. dallas times herald? mrs. hill. that's right. i ran up there and told him we had to leave. she had been impressing upon me for an hour and a half--we hadn't even gone down to see the president that day--we had been doing other things and we got down there and we just decided we would stay, but she had been impressing upon me for an hour and a half, the whole time we had been there, that we had to beat the traffic out of there, and she knows her way around real well, so i knew she could get out and we could beat the traffic, and we were just going to run for the car as fast as we could. it was parked up here on houston. we were going to run and get out of there before the people started milling around so we wouldn't be in that traffic, and i don't know--we had been talking about it so long and she had drilled me so much, that we must get out of here, and when i came back and i found her crying and him standing there holding her camera, and holding her, i mean holding her by the arm and her camera, and telling her she had to go with him, i started trying to shake his hand loose and grab the camera and telling him that "no, we wouldn't go, we had to leave," and i guess by that time i was beginning--until then i have no conscious feeling of any scaredness or excitement or anything. i mean, you know, it is just like something that's passing in front of you, and i mean, i wasn't worried or upset in any way until i got back there and then i had a sense of urgency. i just knew i wanted to get out of there and all i could think of--and i don't think the full impact of all that had happened really hit me then, because i was just wanting to get out of there and to get away and he kept telling me--he insisted we go with him and he just practically ran us, and he got--they were throwing up a police net around that building at the time, and he just practically ran us up to the court house, i guess it is, and put us in this little room and i don't know why we were so dumb that day unless it was just the sequence of events, that everything was just happening so fast we really didn't even think, but we couldn't leave. he kept standing in front of the door and he would let a cameraman in or someone to interview us and they were shooting things in our faces, and he wouldn't let us out. mr. specter. who was interviewing you--newspaper reporters? mrs. hill. newspaper reporters and radio and tv people and a man from--a man named coker john, or john coker. mr. specter. from where? mrs. hill. as i get it, he is a sort of freelance writer, and i think he was on an assignment then. he came out--i'm not sure--i thought it was for life or post, but he came in there and he was shooting pictures for--i think he was shooting them for tv, but he came out to the house about weeks later with this bunch of men, about four of them, three or four came out, and that's the second time i saw him, because he said, "you remember me, i saw you in the pressroom that day." mr. specter. is that miss hill or mrs. hill? mrs. hill. it is mrs. hill, and he said "i saw you in the pressroom that day," and i said, "yes." i remembered him because i saw him more than any--now, i don't remember where i am here. mr. specter. you were telling me about what happened to you at the county courthouse, and then you digressed from that to tell me about john coming to see you in your home. let's go back to the county courthouse and let me ask you if you gave an affidavit to the sheriff that day? mrs. hill. yes. mr. specter. now, did you talk to anybody from the federal government that day? mrs. hill. yes. mr. specter. whom did you talk to? mrs. hill. i don't know. mr. specter. what agency was the man from, if you know? mrs. hill. secret service. mr. specter. how many times have you talked to somebody from the secret service in this case altogether? mrs. hill. i would say the only time i talked to the secret service men was when i was down at the courthouse that afternoon, just before they let us leave, and i think--now, we officially sat down and supposedly were giving a story to the secret service men. mr. specter. and, did they write down what you were telling them? mrs. hill. i don't think they did. mr. specter. did you sign anything? mrs. hill. oh, well, i signed my statement that i made over in the sheriff's office. mr. specter. then, how about for the secret service men, did you sign anything? mrs. hill. no, i don't think we signed anything over there, because they just took us in a little room---- mr. specter. what did you tell the secret service men? mrs. hill. as well as i remember, we talked to so many that day. mr. specter. well, did you tell everybody about the same thing you have told me here today? mrs. hill. yes, except that i didn't go into that stuff with the shots because no one ever asked me, no one ever detailed it like that, but they were interested that day in those pictures and they got them all from us. mr. specter. did you talk with the secret service men on any occasion after the events on november ? mrs. hill. no. mr. specter. have you ever talked to anybody else from the federal government? mrs. hill. the fbi men. mr. specter. on how many occasions? mrs. hill. several. mr. specter. how many, if you remember? mrs. hill. i don't recall--i was called two or three times at least after that. mr. specter. called on the telephone? mrs. hill. yes. mr. specter. you discussed the matter over the phone with somebody who said he was from the fbi? mrs. hill. no; i had that pulled on me and i didn't want to talk until i called back down to check to see. mr. specter. did you talk to somebody from the fbi when you called them back? mrs. hill. yes. mr. specter. over the phone? mrs. hill. yes. mr. specter. on how many occasions? mrs. hill. i think two or three times is all i had. mr. specter. were you ever interviewed in person by the fbi? mrs. hill. yes. mr. specter. on how many occasions? mrs. hill. after that day, i believe only once. mr. specter. and about when was that? mrs. hill. well, it was the other day after i received this letter--no; before i received this letter, and this was last tuesday, i think, and they came in reference to what mark lane had told the warren commission. mr. specter. and what did they ask you when they came to see you last tuesday, that would be a week ago today or the th--or the th? mrs. hill. they just had me start over with this story again and they had mr. lane's copy and they asked me, you know, if i had said these things and, i read it and told them that i had said it. mr. specter. was mr. lane's version accurate? mrs. hill. it was accurate in that he took down what i said. it was inaccurate in that he had taken it out of context, and the questions he asked me weren't there, nor were they given. i can see how he could have made what he made out of my statements. mr. specter. when did you talk to mr. lane? mrs. hill. i talked to him about--approximately or weeks ago. mr. specter. where did that take place? mrs. hill. at new york. mr. specter. did he call you on the telephone? mrs. hill. that's right, and he didn't tell me he was recording this at the time. mr. specter. did you ever talk to mark lane in person? mrs. hill. no. mr. specter. did you ever sign an affidavit for him? mrs. hill. no. mr. specter. the only contact you had with him was this one telephone conversation? mrs. hill. that's right, and he said he was coming to dallas the next week and would i talk with him, i said, i told him then--that i guessed so. i didn't know. i mean, because i didn't fully realize what he was doing in this case. mr. specter. and what did you tell him over the telephone? mrs. hill. i told him the same story i told you, with the exception that he went further into the day's activities at the police station, and at the courthouse. mr. specter. what else did you tell him about your day's activities at the courthouse? mrs. hill. well, he asked me, you know, he just asked me a lot of questions about that, and i told him that we didn't know that we were in a pressroom. we just knew we were in a courthouse and with police. i mean, this was to us a police station. mr. specter. tell me all the things that you told him, in addition to those which you have already told me, that is, tell me all the things you told mr. lane, in addition to that you have already testified about. mrs. hill. i will, but do you realize i have had to go over this so many times that i don't know who i have told which part to? i really don't. mr. specter. well, i'll bear that in mind, but do the best you can in telling me all the things you told mark lane. mrs. hill. can't you just read my statement? mr. specter. feel free to smoke--just relax. mrs. hill. i would except, i don't have one. mr. specter. just relax if you can. mrs. hill. all right, if i can. mr. specter. off the record. let the record show that we were taking a brief recess to get the witness a cup of coffee so that she may be more relaxed. may the record show that we have just obtained some coffee and we are proceeding. when we broke for the coffee, i had asked you to tell me all the things you told mark lane other than those which you have already testified about. mrs. hill. before we go into that--i do want to have you--because i hope that by this time i am through with it, but i do want to tell you about a camera team that came out there to my house that this john coker was with. mr. specter. on which occasion was that? mrs. hill. that is important to me and that is the reason why i digressed and got on that. mr. specter. this occurred, you say, about weeks after the assassination? mrs. hill. say-- days. mr. specter. what happened on that occasion? mrs. hill. they came out and brought tv cameras and were going to take, and they told me they were not going to tell me the questions that they were going to ask me, that they wanted to get my reactions to their questions, and they set up rather, i would say they set up hypothetical situations like--could he have been shot from the window, if this is the kind of wound that it would have made? or, to make this kind of a wound, he had to have been here, now which, you know--and so i told them and from what i gathered that day, they did not think i had--i had gotten the idea from them, that there was speculation or some reasonable doubt that i--that oswald did not do all the shooting and that all these shots did not come from the window. mr. specter. you told the newspaper and the television cameramen that? mrs. hill. that's what i got from them from the questions they asked me. mr. specter. what answers did you give them to those questions? mrs. hill. well, when they would set up a situation, i would tell them what i thought would have had to happen in that situation. mr. specter. well, without formulating any questions which would lead you in any way to any conclusions, let me ask you for your best recollection as to what you think occurred, as to the point where the assassin was, if you have any idea on that question? mrs. hill. well, as i said previously, to me at the time the shot came from the knoll, you know. mr. specter. and you have testified to that because of the sound of the shots? mrs. hill. yes. mr. specter. and also because you saw this man running away. mrs. hill. that's right. mr. specter. do you think perhaps that you had the impression that that came from the knoll exclusively because you saw the man running away? and your reaction that that must have been the man who did the shooting? mrs. hill. it could have been very well--it could have been. mr. specter. now, are there any other factors which led you to think that the shots came from the knoll, factors other than those you have already told me about? mrs. hill. except that i believe these men thought so that night. mr. specter. well, never mind the men, but focus just on what your reaction was at the time. mrs. hill. that's what i thought. at the time i thought that there was more than one person shooting, as i said before. mr. specter. well, you have already told me about that and you told me about the source of the knoll, and you told me why you thought that was more than one person, and now, what i'm trying to get at is why you thought they came from the knoll--was it first because the way the shot sounded and secondly, because the man ran away, and then i asked you the second question--did you think perhaps they came from the knoll exclusively because you saw the man run away, and you said you thought that might be the case. mrs. hill. could be. mr. specter. and then i asked you were there any other findings other than those we have already talked about, which would make you think that the shots came from the knoll, based on your own personal observations, recollections or impressions. mrs. hill. nothing that comes to mind. mr. specter. now, is there anything else about that television interview which you consider important? mrs. hill. except for the fact it left me very doubtful and confused. mr. specter. because they gave you a lot of hypothetical situations, and you didn't know which was which, if you listened to them? mrs. hill. that's right--they had some very strange ideas which i have heard here and there voiced by other people. mr. specter. what were they doing basically, asking you to comment on those various theories? mrs. hill. i asked why were they coming out here, why would they come to my home, why was that important, and they said, "something big is going to break in a little while and we want to put it on first. we want to be ready for it." mr. specter. did they ever put that television interview on? mrs. hill. i have never seen any, but then, i never saw myself on tv either. mr. specter. is there anything else about that television interview which you now consider important? mrs. hill. well, i know that it has bothered me ever since it happened, and particularly since i have been questioned these other times. mr. specter. by the fbi last week? mrs. hill. yes; and without things of comments, and speculation that i have heard, and remarks that i've gone back over, of happenings that have happened to me that day and as to the way it happened, and frankly, i would either like to say it again or something---- mr. specter. like to say what again? mrs. hill. i would like to see this telecast or hear that questioning again because there's something about it that keeps in the back of my mind---- mr. specter. but you can't put your finger on what it is? mrs. hill. no. mr. specter. but you are annoyed or bothered or perplexed with it or confused by that? mrs. hill. yes; i have been. mr. specter. now, have you told me everything that you have to say about that television interview? mrs. hill. yes. mr. specter. now, moving on to the question about mark lane, what did you tell him other than that which you have told me here today? mrs. hill. he asked me where we were taken and i told him in the pressroom, that we didn't know it was the pressroom at the time, and that we didn't know we couldn't leave and because they kept standing across the door, and the first time we really--we were getting tired of it, i mean, we had been down there quite a while and we were getting tired of it and we wanted to leave and this is what i told him, and so some man came in and offered mary a sum, i think--say--$ , or something like this for this picture. we realized that--they said, "don't sell the picture." he was a representative of either post or life, and they said, "don't sell that picture until our representatives have contacted you or a lawyer or something." anyway, we realized at that time we didn't have that picture, that it had been taken from us. i mean, we had let featherstone look at it, you know, but we told no one they could reproduce it. they said, "would you let us look at it and see if it could be reproduced?" we said, "yes; you could look at it," we thought it was--you know, it was fuzzy and everything, but we were wanting to keep them and we suddenly realized we didn't have that picture, and that was quite a bit of money and we were getting pretty excited about it, and mary was getting scared---- mr. specter. did she eventually sell the picture, by the way? mrs. hill. she sold the rights, the publishing rights of it, not the original picture, but they had already--ap and up had already picked it up because featherstone stole it. mr. specter. do you know what she sold those rights for? mrs. hill. i think it was $ . mr. specter. what did you tell mark lane besides about the picture? mrs. hill. this is it. mr. specter. fine, go ahead. mrs. hill. anyway, when i realized we didn't have that picture and mary was getting upset about that--by that time i had realized we were in a pressroom and that he had no right to be holding us and he had no authority and that we could get out of there, and they kept standing in front of the door, and i told him--i said, "get out." we kept asking him for our picture, and where it was, and he said, "we'll get it back--we'll get it back. and so i jerked away and ran out of the door and as i did, there was a secret service man. now, this i was told--that he was a secret service man, and he said, "do you have a red raincoat?" and, i said, "yes; it's in yonder. let me go." i was intent on finding someone to get that picture back and i said as i walked out, "i can get someone big enough to get it back for us." he said, "does your friend have a blue raincoat?" and i said, "yes; she's in there." he said, "here they are," to somebody else and they told us that they had been looking for us. mr. specter. who told you that? mrs. hill. this man. mr. specter. all this you told mr. lane? mrs. hill. yes. mr. specter. go ahead. mrs. hill. and so, then they took us into the police station. just about that time sheriff decker came out and the man was with us and we were telling him why we were in there, why we had been in the pressroom, you know, and why they hadn't been able to find us, because they had thought that mary had been hit and they were looking for the two women that were standing right by the car with the camera. at that time they didn't know what we were doing down there and why we were right at the car. so, there followed questioning all afternoon long, and he asked me at one time--well, in fact he asked repeatedly if i was held and i told him, "yes." mr. specter. who asked you that? mrs. hill. mark lane. mr. specter. if you were held? mrs. hill. yes; you know if i were held, if i had to stay there and i told him, "yes," but i told him when we were in the pressroom it was just our own ignorance, really, that was keeping us there and letting the man intimidate us that had no authority. mr. specter. that was a newsman as opposed to the police official? mrs. hill. yes; and i gave mark lane his name several times--clearly. i remember clearly that i gave him his name. mr. specter. and what name did you give him? mrs. hill. featherstone of the times herald, and so after we got out of there and i talked with a man---- mr. specter. now, you are continuing to tell me everything you told mark lane? mrs. hill. that's right, and i talked with this man, a secret service man, and i said, "am i a kook or what's wrong with me?" i said, "they keep saying three shots--three shots," and i said, "i know i heard more. i heard from four to six shots anyway." he said, "mrs. hill, we were standing at the window and we heard more shots also, but we have three wounds and we have three bullets, three shots is all that we are willing to say right now." mr. specter. now, did that secret service man try to suggest to you that there were only three shots in any other way than that? mrs. hill. that's all he said to me. he didn't say, "you have to say three shots"--he didn't tell me what to say. mr. specter. he didn't try to intimidate you or coerce you in any way? mrs. hill. no; that's all he said. mr. specter. all right. go ahead and tell me what you told mark lane. mrs. hill. i told him--i was asked by them---- mr. specter. do you know who that secret service man was, by the way? mrs. hill. no; i don't. i don't know--not any name that day except decker and the president. mr. specter. all right, go ahead and tell me everything else you said. mrs. hill. then, he asked me--i was asked did i know that a bullet struck at my feet and i said, "no; i didn't." and he said, "what do you think that dust was?" and i said, "i didn't see any dust." and i told mark lane that the times herald did run a picture in the paper of a concrete scar where a bullet had hit right where we were standing, which is evident to anybody that had an issue of the times herald. mr. specter. did you see that concrete? mrs. hill. i didn't go back down there. mr. specter. do you know whether or not a bullet did hit that concrete? mrs. hill. as i say, i saw the picture in the newspaper. mr. specter. aside from seeing it in the newspaper, do you know anything about that? mrs. hill. no; other than what the man said he saw out of the window of the courthouse, the secret service man said and it struck at my feet, other than that--i don't know. mr. specter. what else did you tell mark lane? mrs. hill. so, he asked me, "did you have to stay down there or did you stay of your own accord?" and i said, "no; we had stay there." he said something--he said, "were you threatened or something?" and i told him i wasn't threatened, but--he said, "how do you know you were held?" or something like that, and i said, "because i tried to leave twice. at one time i saw people i knew on the street and i was going to go down and talk to them and i went down and they came down and got me, and another time i went down when the evening edition of the paper hit the street and two men," and i told him, i did not tell him they were secret service men, but they were men from the sheriff's office. there were some kind of deputy or something that came down and took me back and they were not playing. they meant to take me back. they did take my arms and i knew i was going, because i just kept standing on the corner saying, "no; i don't want to go back yet. please let me stay down here just a little while." they did make us go back in there. mr. specter. where were they from? mrs. hill. they were from the sheriff's office, they were just deputies--they weren't fbi or secret service. mr. specter. was it after that that you gave the affidavit to the sheriff? mrs. hill. yes. mr. specter. what else did you tell mark lane? mrs. hill. well, i told him that my story had already been given, that they had an affidavit down there, and he said, "were you ever at any time--" i think he said, "were you ever at any time told not to say something or this, that, and the other," and i said, "the only thing that i was told not to say was to not mention the man running," and he said, "and why?" and i said, "well, it was an fbi or secret service that told me not to, but they came in to me just right after i was taken--i was in there in the pressroom, and told me in fact--i told him it was featherstone that told me. he said, "you know you were wrong about seeing a man running." he said, "you didn't." mr. specter. who told you you were wrong--featherstone or lane? mrs. hill. featherstone. and i told him that--i told mr. lane that mr. featherstone had told me that, and i said, "but i did," and he said, "no; don't say that any more on the air." mr. specter. who said, "don't say that any more on the air?" mrs. hill. featherstone; and i made it clear to mark lane, because i mentioned his name several times, and he said, "he has told me not to tell anyone"---- mr. specter. you mean featherstone? mrs. hill. yes; that the shots had come from a window up in the depository and for me not to say that any more, that i was wrong about it, and i said "very well," and so i just didn't say any more that i ran across the street to see the man, and that's the part, as much as i can get from when the fbi men came out and talked to me the other day, that is the part mostly that i got that was out of context, because what he gave the commission was basically true. mr. specter. what mark lane gave the commission? mrs. hill. yes. mr. specter. except for what---- mrs. hill. except he didn't have his comments in there. mr. specter. what were his comments? mrs. hill. well, as i said, the way he would ask me things i can see why i gave the answers i did, which to me are the truth, but i can see, taken out of context, why he or the commission, well, not how he, because he was listening to me--how the commission could take it to mean maybe something else? mr. specter. did he repeat then to the commission how the commission could take them to mean maybe something else? mrs. hill. yes---- mr. specter. did he repeat them to the commission out of context--did mark lane repeat them out of context? mrs. hill. to me they were--to me they were--it was my comments and it wasn't everything i said. mr. specter. have you now related all of the ways that mark lane took your comments out of context? mrs. hill. so far as i know. mr. specter. now, is there anything else about your conversation with mark lane which you think would be helpful to the commission to know about? mrs. hill. no. mr. specter. now, before getting on to mark lane, we were talking about the times you had been interviewed by the authorities and you had told me you were interviewed a couple of times by telephone by the fbi when you called back to verify it was the fbi and about a single interview you had with the fbi a week ago today, which would have been the th of march? mrs. hill. yes. mr. specter. now, have you had any additional interviews with any federal authorities before today, other than those which you have already told me about? mrs. hill. no; not that i remember. mr. specter. now, for the record, mrs. hill, i'm going to ask you some questions about your own background--first of all i would like you to tell me how old you are, for the record? mrs. hill. thirty-three. mr. specter. and where is your home area--dallas or some other part of the country or what? mrs. hill. where am i from? mr. specter. where are you from? mrs. hill. oklahoma. mr. specter. and what city in oklahoma? mrs. hill. originally wewoka and later oklahoma city. mr. specter. and are you married? mrs. hill. yes. mr. specter. and is there any unusual status with respect to your being married at this moment? mrs. hill. i am in the process of getting a divorce. mr. specter. and how many children have you? mrs. hill. i have two--a boy and a girl . mr. specter. and what is your educational background? mrs. hill. i was graduated from wewoka high school and oklahoma baptist university in shawnee. mr. specter. and what year did you graduate from high school? mrs. hill. . mr. specter. and what year from college? mrs. hill. , after two babies later. mr. specter. and is that a -year college? mrs. hill. that's right. mr. specter. and how are you occupied at the present time? mrs. hill. i taught years in oklahoma city public schools and for the past year and a half i have been doing substitute teaching for the dallas board of education. mr. specter. and what is your maiden name? mrs. hill. lollis. mr. specter. and what is your husband's occupation? mrs. hill. he is a consultant for science research associates, lately ibm. mr. specter. and is there anything else that you would care to tell me which you think might be of aid to the commission in its investigation? mrs. hill. no. mr. specter. thank you very much for coming and giving your deposition. mrs. hill. am i completely through with the commission? mr. specter. i think this will be the end of it--we have all of the records, and to the best of my expectation--yes; but you could be called anytime. you have both the pleasure and the discomfort, but the distinction of having been an eye witness. mrs. hill. well, i know, i have always been rather--i mean, it's not something you are--you are not proud to say it, but i think it was part of history and i was glad i was there, but because i got publicity, because--i think my children will be interested to know that someday that i was in it someway. mr. specter. well, let me say, as to the best of my knowledge there are no further plans for the commission to call you again. this transcript will be reviewed by me in washington and by my colleagues in washington and it is possible that you may be contacted again. perhaps i might talk to you again by telephone or perhaps the fbi, or it is even conceivable the commission might want to hear from you, yourself, in washington, but my best estimate of the situation right now is that we have the basic information from you which we need. mrs. hill. i told the fbi the other day i did not want to go to washington. i don't think i can take any more laughing at. mr. specter. well, we won't call on you unless it is concluded that it is absolutely necessary. mrs. hill. good. i was hoping this would do it. mr. specter. all right. thank you very much. mrs. hill. thank you. mr. specter. for the purposes of the record, this diagram which was used during the deposition of mrs. hill will be marked hill exhibit no. . (instrument referred to marked by the reporter as hill exhibit no. , for identification.) testimony of austin l. miller the testimony of austin l. miller was taken at : p.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. david w. belin, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. belin. would you stand and be sworn, sir. do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before the president's commission is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. miller. i do. mr. belin. would you state your name for the record. mr. miller. austin l. miller. mr. belin. where do you live? mr. miller. powl circle, mesquite, tex. mr. belin. is that a suburb of dallas? mr. miller. yes; it is just a little town. mr. belin. how far out of dallas? mr. miller. it borders the city limits of dallas. mr. belin. how old are you? mr. miller. twenty-six mr. belin. married? mr. miller. yes. mr. belin. did you go to school in texas? mr. miller. yes; i did. mr. belin. how far did you go to school? mr. miller. tenth grade. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. miller. i quit school and went to work. mr. belin. where did you work? mr. miller. first worked at titche's, and then for robertson & king motor supply, and from there i went back to titche's, and then to a. & p. bakery co., and then i worked for presto delivery co., and then to texas-louisiana freight bureau where i am working now. mr. belin. how long have you been there? mr. miller. ever since , january . mr. belin. what do you do now? mr. miller. well, it is a combination job between mail clerk and tariff compiler. mr. belin. where were you working on friday, november , , which was the day that president kennedy came to dallas? mr. miller. texas-louisiana freight bureau. mr. belin. where is that located? mr. miller. union terminal. mr. belin. where is the union terminal located? mr. miller. that is down at--the address they give is south houston street, but the book is not the correct address, but that is what they use. because is the opposite side of the block, and there is a city park there. mr. belin. what cross street? would it be near any intersection at all, or not? mr. miller. on the corner of houston, and i can't think of the name of that street now, right in front of the dallas morning news. mr. belin. would it be north or south of main street? mr. miller. it would be south. mr. belin. how many blocks south of main street? mr. miller. four blocks. mr. belin. four blocks south of main street on houston? mr. miller. right. mr. belin. all right, where were you at about the time the motorcade came by? mr. miller. i was standing on the top of the triple underpass on the main street side. mr. belin. now when you say triple underpass, there are actually three underpasses there? mr. miller. yes. they are sitting side by side. it is main, commerce, and elm. i was over elm instead of main street. i was over elm street. mr. belin. now there is a place where the railroad tracks are, and that is the first. is it all railroad tracks, or part railroad tracks and part freeway? mr. miller. all railroad tracks go over that particular set of underpass. mr. belin. where you were? mr. miller. yes, sir. mr. belin. when did you get there? mr. miller. about : or : . mr. belin. do you remember what time the motorcade came by? mr. miller. no; i don't, not for sure. mr. belin. about how long after you got there did you see the motorcade? mr. miller. about or minutes. mr. belin. anyone else standing around there that you knew? mr. miller. royce skelton, the boy i work with and an elderly man who is a building maintenance man. by name, i don't know him, but a lot of other employees i have seen in the building other than myself. mr. belin. anyone else that you knew? mr. miller. as far as knowing, no, sir. mr. belin. you saw other people there? mr. miller. yes, sir. mr. belin. did you see any police officer around there? mr. miller. there was one on both sides of the bridge. mr. belin. well, describe what happened. did you see the motorcade come by? mr. miller. yes, sir; it came down main street and turned north on houston street and went over two blocks and turned left onto elm street. got about halfway down the hill going toward the underpass and that is when as far as i can recall the first shot was fired. mr. belin. did you know it was a shot when you heard it? mr. miller. i didn't know it. i thought at first the motorcycle backfiring or somebody throwed some firecrackers out. mr. belin. then what did you hear or see? mr. miller. after the first one, just a few seconds later, there was two more shots fired or, or sounded like a sound at the time. i didn't know for sure. and it was after that i saw some man in the car fall forward, and a woman next to him grab him and hollered, and just what, i don't know exactly what she said. mr. belin. then what did you see? mr. miller. about that time i turned and looked toward the--there is a little plaza sitting on the hill. i looked over there to see if anything was there, who threw the firecracker or whatever it was, or see if anything was up there, and there wasn't nobody standing there, so i stepped back and looked on the tracks to see if anybody run across the railroad tracks, and there was nobody running across the railroad tracks. so i turned right straight back just in time to see the convertible take off fast. mr. belin. you mean the convertible in which the president was riding? mr. miller. i wouldn't want to say it was the president. it was a convertible, but i saw a man fall over. i don't know whose convertible it was. mr. belin. where did the shots sound like they came from? mr. miller. well, the way it sounded like, it came from the, i would say from right there in the car. would be to my left, the way i was looking at him over toward that incline. mr. belin. is there anything else that you can think of that you saw. mr. miller. about the time i looked over to the side there, there was a police officer. no; a motorcycle running his motor under against the curb, and jumped off and come up to the hill toward the top and right behind him was some more officers and plainclothesmen, too. mr. belin. did you see anyone that might be, that gave any suspicious movements of any kind over there? mr. miller. no, sir; i didn't. mr. belin. did you see anyone when you looked around on the railroad tracks, that you hadn't seen before? mr. miller. no, sir; i didn't. we was all standing in one group right at the rail looking over, and the police officer, he was standing about or feet behind us. mr. belin. now about how many were there in that group altogether, if you can remember? mr. miller. i would say in the neighborhood of or people. maybe more, maybe less. mr. belin. apart from those people, did you see anyone else in the vicinity at all on the railroad tracks? mr. miller. there was one young man or boy. he was going to come up on the tracks, but the police officer stopped him and asked him where he was going, and he said he was going to come up where he could see, and he asked if he worked for the train station, and he said, "no," so the police officer made him go back down. where he went to, i don't know. mr. belin. when was this? mr. miller. oh, before the president came along. mr. belin. about how much before, do you know? offhand? mr. miller. i couldn't say. mr. belin. do you know anything about this man or boy that you described? about how old he was, or anything? mr. miller. i can't think. i would say he was in his early twenties. mr. belin. tall or short? mr. miller. i don't remember that much about him. i do recall him coming up and the man talking to him and turning him back. mr. belin. so he went back down? mr. miller. yes. mr. belin. where did he come up from? mr. miller. he came up from the--i am going by where i was standing. he was from our left, from around behind that parking lot. mr. belin. did you ever see him again or not? mr. miller. no, sir; i didn't. mr. belin. did you ever see anyone else in that area at all or anything on the railroad tracks at any time? mr. miller. no, sir; not until after the shots were fired and the police officers came up the hill and climbed over the fence and started searching. mr. belin. that was the only other people that you saw? mr. miller. that is all i recall seeing. mr. belin. anything else that you can add that might be of help in any way to the commission, or to the investigation into the assassination? mr. miller. offhand, no, sir; i don't recall anything else. my statement at the time may have some more, but i don't recall exactly what all did happen for sure. mr. belin. well, you and i never met until just a few minutes ago, did we? mr. miller. no, sir. mr. belin. and as soon as you came in here, we started immediately taking your testimony under oath, is that correct? mr. miller. yes. mr. belin. we never talked about the facts before then, did we? mr. miller. no, sir. mr. belin. well, you have the right, if you like, to read this deposition when it is typewritten, and sign it, or else you can waive the signing of it and have it go directly to washington without your signing. what would be your preference? mr. miller. if you rather it would be signed---- mr. belin. we do not require it to be signed. mr. miller. it makes no difference. mr. belin. we have no preference. we do not require your signing. you can waive the signing of it to save yourself a trip coming down here again, or you have the right, if you like, to come down and read it and sign. mr. miller. i will just waive it, because it would be to my advantage to not have to take off. mr. belin. all right, we sure appreciate your coming down and thank you very much. there is one other thing. we have a sketch. i want to ask you to put on the sketch where you were. mr. miller. okay. mr. belin. handing you what we call "a. miller deposition exhibit a." i am going to try and get this thing oriented here. here is houston street running north this way. there is elm. here is the railroad overpass, and here is the freeway overpass. mr. miller. now where this "x" is at up here, is where we was standing. mr. belin. where it is marked "pos. ," there is an arrow there which i have put there, is that right? mr. miller. yes, sir. mr. belin. by the "x," which appears to be right over the overpass of elm, which would be to the east side of the overpass, is that right? mr. miller. yes, sir. mr. belin. that is where you were standing? mr. miller. yes, sir; it was. mr. belin. all right, sir. thank you very much. testimony of frank e. reilly the testimony of frank e. reilly was taken at p.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas. tex., by mr. joseph a. ball, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. ball. do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before the commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. reilly. yes; i do. mr. ball. will you state your name, please? mr. reilly. frank e. reilly. mr. ball. what is your address? mr. reilly. thibet, t-h-i-b-e-t [spelling]. mr. ball. what is your occupation? mr. reilly. electrician, union terminal. mr. ball. you received a letter from the commission, didn't you? mr. reilly. yes, sir. mr. ball. advising you that your deposition was to be taken? mr. reilly. yes, sir. mr. ball. where were you born and raised? mr. reilly. i was born in fort worth. mr. ball. how many years ago? mr. reilly. i left over there when i was and i am now. mr. ball. what kind of education do you have? mr. reilly. not too good--i went through the ninth grade. mr. ball. what have you done since then, generally, just in a general way--you don't need to go into great detail? mr. reilly. i've been with the terminal co. since . mr. ball. you have been a railroad man all of your life, then? mr. reilly. yes, sir. mr. ball. on november , , were you working for the union terminal co.? mr. reilly. yes. mr. ball. what were you doing that day? mr. reilly. we had been working on the mail conveyor up close to the other end. mr. ball. what was that? mr. reilly. mail conveyor. mr. ball. who were you working with? mr. reilly. i was by myself--it was on a friday. mr. ball. about noon did you go down to someplace near elm street? mr. reilly. i went over to mr. holland's shop and then we went up there together to see the parade. mr. ball. you went over to mr. holland's office? mr. reilly. mr. holland's shop. mr. ball. what is mr. holland's occupation? mr. reilly. he is a signal supervisor. mr. ball. for the union terminal co.? mr. reilly. yes, sir. mr. ball. then, where did you go? mr. reilly. we taken a walk up through the overpass right there. mr. ball. where did you stand on the overpass? mr. reilly. well, we went over to the railing and stood there. mr. ball. and with reference to what streets--were you standing over elm, over main, or over commerce? mr. reilly. well, you mean when this parade came down? mr. ball. yes. mr. reilly. we were between them. mr. ball. between what streets? mr. reilly. elm and main. mr. ball. i have a map here which has been used in the deposition of another witness, but it gives some idea of the location there--this is north--this shows the corner of elm and houston streets. mr. reilly. yes, sir. mr. ball. and it shows where elm turns and goes under the railroad, the overpass. mr. reilly. we were between the two. mr. ball. will you take this pen and this is elm and here is main, and make a mark and show me where you were standing? mr. reilly. this is the overpass right there? mr. ball. yes; this is the overpass. mr. reilly. we was between these two streets--there was big banisters up there and it was about like that, i guess. mr. ball. we will put a mark there. mr. reilly. (the witness reilly marked the instrument as requested by counsel ball.) mr. ball. and i will put on that position " "--you were standing there when the motorcade came along? mr. reilly. yes. mr. ball. who was standing there with you? mr. reilly. i believe it was mr. dodd and skinney. mr. ball. and what are his initials? mr. reilly. dick dodd. mr. ball. that's r. c. dodd, isn't it? mr. reilly. i think so. mr. ball. and what is his position with the union terminal co.? mr. reilly. foreman of the laborers. mr. ball. who else was with him? mr. reilly. these two fellows here--were standing out there, but i don't know their names? mr. ball. what are their names? mr. reilly. i don't know their names--i don't even associate with them. mr. ball. what about mr. holland? mr. reilly. we were together. mr. ball. s. m. holland was there? mr. reilly. we were together. mr. ball. holland and dodd and you? mr. reilly. and me. mr. ball. then, there were how many other men? mr. reilly. well, there were three or four--but i don't know who they were. mr. ball. you have seen two of them here, haven't you? mr. reilly. yes; two of them out there. mr. ball. and you know one's name is---- mr. reilly. i wouldn't know it--their name--i don't even know their name only by seeing them. i do go in there in the office once in a while to put in lamps. mr. ball. do you know the name of skelton, isn't there a fellow named skelton there? mr. reilly. no; i don't. mr. ball. and a man named miller? mr. reilly. no. mr. ball. were you all standing at about the same location? mr. reilly. all right close together. mr. ball. were there any police officers there? mr. reilly. one behind me. mr. ball. one behind you? mr. reilly. he was standing back close to the tracks. mr. ball. that would be where? mr. reilly. about or feet back of us. mr. ball. were there any other police officers there? mr. reilly. on the far side. mr. ball. what do you mean by "far side"? mr. reilly. up to the side of where the tracks are on the west side. mr. ball. it would be west of where you are standing--you put a mark down and show me where the two police officers were standing, as you remember it. mr. reilly. now, this is all tracks over here. mr. ball. all tracks along the railroad overpass? mr. reilly. yes; these are all tracks in here. one of them was standing behind me and one of them was standing back around here--back along here, but just how far back, i don't know. mr. ball. put a mark down there for me where the two police officers were standing. mr. reilly. i have an idea one of them was standing here, and for sure, i don't know. mr. ball. where was the other one standing? mr. reilly. he was on the far side, but i didn't see him. mr. ball. well, mark that " ." mr. reilly. he was on the far side--and how far back--i don't know. mr. ball. what do you mean by "far side"? do you mean he was south of you? mr. reilly. no; he was west of me. mr. ball. you see on the map, it's marked "elm, main and commerce"--this other police officer was near what? mr. reilly. i wouldn't know because i wasn't facing him and there was two of them up there. mr. ball. back; by "far side" you mean that he was south of you? mr. reilly. no; he was west of me--you see, this place is east and west--these streets. mr. ball. but the railroad overpass goes north and south? mr. reilly. yes; north and south. mr. ball. then, if he was west of you, he would be behind you? mr. reilly. yes; behind me. mr. ball. were there two police officers behind you? mr. reilly. yes; there was two of them--both of them--one close and one here---- mr. ball. listen to the question--there were two police officers there, was there? mr. reilly. yes. mr. ball. were they both behind you? mr. reilly. yes. mr. ball. one was closer than the other one? mr. reilly. yes. mr. ball. how close was the one that was closer to you? mr. reilly. i have an idea about or feet. mr. ball. and how far away was the other one? mr. reilly. about the width of that overpass across-- or feet across there. mr. ball. one was or feet from you, and the other one was feet from you and they were both behind you? mr. reilly. yes. mr. ball. did you see the motorcade come down elm street? mr. reilly. no; not until it turned and started to come under the underpass. mr. ball. did you see the president's car? mr. reilly. yes. mr. ball. where did you first see it? mr. reilly. when it turned off of houston street and started around. mr. ball. onto elm street? mr. reilly. yes. mr. ball. is that the first time you saw the president's car, when it turned off houston street onto elm street? mr. reilly. yes. mr. ball. how many people were there on the overpass at the time--at that time? mr. reilly. just what i told you. mr. ball. tell me again. mr. reilly. well, there was holland and me and dick dodd and those two fellows out there and the two policemen--that's all i remember seeing out there. mr. ball. did you hear something? mr. reilly. yes. mr. ball. what did you hear? mr. reilly. three shots. mr. ball. where did they seem to come from; what direction? mr. reilly. it seemed to me like they come out of the trees. mr. ball. what trees? mr. reilly. on the north side of elm street at the corner up there. mr. ball. on the north side of elm--on what corner? mr. reilly. well, where all those trees are--you've never been down there? mr. ball. yes; i've been there, but you tell me--i want you to tell me because it has to go on the record here and it has to be in writing. mr. reilly. well, it's at that park where all the shrubs is up there--it's to the north of elm street--up the slope. mr. ball. did you see any pigeons fly? mr. reilly. no; i didn't pay no attention to that. mr. ball. what did you do after you heard the shots? mr. reilly. i just stood there a few minutes and then i went on down to the shop. mr. ball. which way did you walk? mr. reilly. south. mr. ball. south? mr. reilly. toward the post office. mr. ball. your shop is down south of that place? mr. reilly. yes; it's the other side of the station. mr. ball. who walked with you? mr. reilly. nobody. mr. ball. you walked alone? mr. reilly. yes. mr. ball. i think that's all, mr. reilly. this will be written up and you can look it over and correct it if you wish, or you can waive your signature if you wish. which do you wish--do you want to come down and sign it, or do you want to waive your signature? mr. reilly. no; i'll do anything you want me to. mr. ball. well, you do anything you want to--it's your option--what do you want to do? mr. reilly. i'll sign it. mr. ball. all right. this young lady will write it up and call you and you can come down here and sign it. how is that? mr. reilly. well, will i have to come back? mr. ball. yes; you will. mr. reilly. it is hard for me to get off. mr. ball. it is--why don't you waive your signature, if it is inconvenient to you, and we will offer this diagram as exhibit a to your deposition. mr. reilly. all right. (instrument marked by the reporter as "reilly exhibit a," for identification.) testimony of earle v. brown the testimony of earle v. brown was taken at : p.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay street, dallas, tex., by messrs. joseph a. ball and samuel a. stern, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. ball. would you please rise, raise your right hand and be sworn? mr. brown. all right. mr. ball. do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. brown. i do. mr. ball. sit down. state your name and address, please. mr. brown. earle v. brown, north rosemont. mr. ball. what is your occupation? mr. brown. policeman. mr. ball. with the dallas police department? mr. brown. yes, sir. mr. ball. how long have you been a policeman? mr. brown. fourteen years. mr. ball. where were you born and what is your education and training? mr. brown. i was born on a farm near lyons, nebraska, in , and i completed years of schooling, high school. mr. ball. high school? mr. brown. yes, sir. mr. ball. then what did you do? mr. brown. well, i stayed on the farm until , then i moved to ohio; lima, ohio. i was inducted into the army and was in there years, months, discharged , august , and i was here in dallas actually when i was discharged and then back to ohio for about years. then, let's see, that would be august of , we came back to dallas and then february , , i joined the police force. mr. ball. now, you are a patrolman, aren't you? mr. brown. yes, sir. mr. ball. on november , , were you assigned to a certain post on duty? mr. brown. yes, sir. mr. ball. where? mr. brown. that would be the railroad overpass over stemmons expressway service road. mr. ball. is that the one that leads off elm? mr. brown. you mean that crosses elm? mr. ball. that crosses elm, yes; the overpass across elm. mr. brown. no, sir. mr. ball. what does it cross? mr. brown. it's over stemmons expressway; in other words, they make that turn off elm and go up. mr. ball. you know where elm, the corner of elm and houston is? mr. brown. yes, sir. mr. ball. then there is a road, the highway continues on to the west, a little south, is that what you call the stemmons expressway? mr. brown. there's one there, too, but that overpass is actually a road. where i was was the railroad overpass. mr. ball. the railroad overpass itself? mr. brown. yes, sir. mr. ball. how far were you from the place where the continuation of elm goes under the overpass? mr. brown. oh, approximately yards. mr. ball. let me see if we can get something in the record that will be your position. you were appointed to this particular spot? mr. brown. yes, sir. mr. ball. was there another patrolman on the overpass also? mr. brown. yes, sir; james lomax. mr. ball. now, this is the place where the railroad yards run over the highway? mr. brown. yes. mr. ball. and you are on the stemmons freeway end of it? mr. brown. that's right; in other words, stemmons freeway and the service road both go under the underpass. mr. ball. what is his name? mr. brown. james lomax. mr. ball. how far were you from the point where elm street goes under the underpass? mr. brown. i would say approximately yards. mr. ball. approximately yards in what direction? mr. brown. that would be--wouldn't be straight east, but it would be to easterly, kind of off at an angle--i would say about from us about a ° angle to the right. mr. ball. you would be east or west? mr. brown. we would be to the southwest of that. mr. ball. you would be to the southwest of that? mr. brown. yes, i would say that's about right. mr. ball. did you have the corner of houston and elm street in sight from where you were located? mr. brown. actually, we could see cars moving there, you know, coming and making the turn, but the intersection, that would be about all we probably could see would be cars. mr. ball. could you see cars going down after they made the turn and going down toward the underpass south? mr. brown. yes. mr. ball. you could see those? mr. brown. yes. mr. ball. did you have any instructions when you were assigned to this location? mr. brown. yes, sir. mr. ball. what were they? mr. brown. not allow anyone on the overpass whatever and walk forward and make both ends--in other words, check both ends of the overpass. mr. ball. that was you and mr. lomax? mr. brown. that's right. mr. ball. was there an e. v. brown? mr. brown. that's me. mr. ball. that's you, and was there also a joe murphy? mr. brown. joe murphy is a three-wheeler. mr. ball. yes; where was he? mr. brown. i don't know, sir; he was, i believe he was on his three-wheeler. mr. ball. on his motor? mr. brown. i believe; i wouldn't say for sure but i don't know. mr. ball. did you people keep people off the overpass? mr. brown. we made no contact with anyone except one of the railroad detectives come up there and talked to us. mr. ball. did you keep the underpass free of people? mr. brown. underneath? mr. ball. no; up above. mr. brown. up above; yes, sir. mr. ball. what about underneath? mr. brown. well, that was roadway there; people wouldn't be able to walk. mr. ball. on the top of the overpass you kept that free of people? mr. brown. yes, sir. mr. ball. did you have the railroad yards in sight? mr. brown. yes, sir. mr. ball. they would be what direction from where you were standing? mr. brown. that would be east; that would be east of us. mr. ball. east, maybe a little north? mr. brown. yes, the whole thing kind of in that general direction, you know. mr. ball. did you see any people over in the railroad yards? mr. brown. not that i recall; now they were moving trains in and out. mr. ball. but you did not see people standing? mr. brown. no, sir; sure didn't. mr. ball. everything was in clear view? mr. brown. yes, sir. mr. ball. i withdraw the question. was there any obstruction of your vision to the railroad yards? mr. brown. yes. mr. ball. what? mr. brown. not the direction of the railroad yard, but at ground level we didn't have very good view. mr. lomax and i remarked that we didn't have a very good view. mr. ball. was that because of the moving trains? mr. brown. yes, sir. mr. ball. did you see the president's motorcade come on to houston street from elm; were you able to see that? mr. brown. now they came down main, didn't they, to houston? mr. ball. yes. mr. brown. no, sir; actually, the first i noticed the car was when it stopped. mr. ball. where? mr. brown. after it made the turn and when the shots were fired, it stopped. mr. ball. did it come to a complete stop? mr. brown. that, i couldn't swear to. mr. ball. it appeared to be slowed down some? mr. brown. yes; slowed down. mr. ball. did you hear the shots? mr. brown. yes, sir. mr. ball. how many? mr. brown. three. mr. ball. where did they seem to come from? mr. brown. well, they seemed high to me, actually; if you want, would you like me to tell you? mr. ball. sure, tell it in your own words. mr. brown. well, down in that river bottom there, there's a whole lot of pigeons this particular day, and they heard the shots before we did because i saw them flying up--must have been , of them. mr. ball. where was the river bottom? mr. brown. you know, actually off to the--between us and the, this overpass you are talking about there's kind of a levee along there. it's really a grade of the railroad, is what it is; that's where they were and then i heard these shots and then i smelled this gun powder. mr. ball. you did? mr. brown. it come on it would be maybe a couple minutes later so--at least it smelled like it to me. mr. ball. what direction did the sound seem to come from? mr. brown. it came it seemed the direction of that building, that texas---- mr. ball. school book depository? mr. brown. school book depository. mr. ball. did you see any pigeons flying around the building? mr. brown. i just don't recall that; no, sir. mr. ball. which way did you look when you heard the sound? mr. brown. when i first heard that sound i looked up toward that building because actually it seemed to come from there. mr. ball. where was it you saw the pigeons rise? mr. brown. they must have been down there feeding at that time because they just seemed to all take off. mr. ball. where were they from where you were standing? mr. brown. from where i was standing they would be about half way between--no, they would be up more toward that other overpass, what they call the triple underpass. mr. ball. the triple underpass? mr. brown. yes. mr. ball. you were about yards from the triple underpass? mr. brown. approximately; yes. mr. ball. was there anybody standing on the triple underpass? mr. brown. on the triple underpass? mr. ball. yes. mr. brown. yes, sir; they had at least two officers. mr. ball. anybody but police officers? mr. brown. not that i know of. i didn't recall anyone. mr. ball. what did you do after you heard the shots? mr. brown. well, let me see, by that time the escort as to the motorcycles, we could see them coming, the front part of the motorcade, i don't think they probably realized what happened; they had come on ahead. and then we saw the car coming with the president, and as it passed underneath me i looked right down and i could see this officer in the back; he had this gun and he was swinging it around, looked like a machinegun, and the president was all sprawled out, his foot on the back cushion. of course, you couldn't conceive anything that happened; of course, we knew something had happened, but we couldn't conceive the fact it did. mr. ball. did you move out of there in any direction? mr. brown. no, sir; we, well, we checked there; the area, we kept checking that area through there and, of course, there were people all over the place but we didn't allow anybody up on the railroad right-of-way through there. mr. ball. was there anybody standing on the triple underpass at the point where elm goes underneath? mr. brown. uh-uh, i couldn't recall; no one except police officers. mr. ball. more than one? mr. brown. yes. mr. ball. did you search any part of the area? mr. brown. we were instructed to stay at our posts, which we did, and later we got instructions to check the area around the depository, book depository building, and to obtain the license numbers of all those cars parked around there, which we did. mr. ball. where were any cars parked? mr. brown. well, there's a parking lot around that building and there was several cars parked all around that building. mr. ball. you took the license numbers? mr. brown. yes; in fact, i think there must have been four or five officers taking license numbers. mr. ball. how long were you around there? mr. brown. well, we stayed and then they sent us back to the overpass and we stayed there until, let's see, i don't believe we left there until about : or in the afternoon, and then we came up to the hall and mr. sorrels, i believe talked to us. mr. ball. i think that's all, officer. this will be written up and you can take it, read it, and sign it if you wish, or you can waive your signature, just as you wish. which do you wish? mr. brown. you mean today? mr. ball. no; it will be a week or so. mr. brown. oh, yes. mr. ball. which do you prefer? mr. brown. what preference do i have? mr. ball. well, it will be written up and you can come in and sign it---- mr. brown. yes. mr. ball. or you can waive signature and you don't need to come in and sign it. it is your option; you can do either way. mr. brown. i will be glad to come in and sign it. mr. ball. she will notify you. thanks very much. testimony of earle v. brown resumed the testimony of earle v. brown was taken at : p.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. joseph a. ball, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. ball. you have been sworn, so we will just continue with your deposition, and your name is earle v. brown? mr. brown. right; e-a-r-l-e (spelling). mr. ball. mr. brown, i have had a map made here which i would like to have you inspect here. the railroad overpass is shown--that runs in a north and south direction? mr. brown. yes. mr. ball. and stemmons freeway overpass is shown--that runs north and south, doesn't it? mr. brown. right. mr. ball. were you on either one of those overpasses? mr. brown. either one of those two there? mr. ball. yes. mr. brown. no, sir. mr. ball. where were you? mr. brown. on this overpass here--this tp railroad overpass. mr. ball. the overpass that runs in an east and west direction? mr. brown. right--yes, sir. mr. ball. now, will you take this pen and draw on there your position on the overpass? mr. brown. well, you see, on this overpass, of course, there are the tracks and then there is a railing and then there is a catwalk on each side and we walked the catwalk, and we would come around on each end and we would walk the tracks and come around there. mr. ball. where were you when you saw the president's car turn on houston and elm street? mr. brown. i was on the catwalk. mr. ball. can you mark your position? mr. brown. i would be--approximately in the center. (instrument marked by the witness, as requested by counsel ball.) mr. ball. have you marked the place where you were? mr. brown. yes; it would be about the center of that. mr. ball. is that where you were when you heard the shots? mr. brown. yes. mr. ball. and did you see anybody out on the railroad overpass? mr. brown. no, sir; i didn't see anybody there. mr. ball. you don't recall seeing anybody that would either be where elm goes under the overpass or where main goes under the overpass--you don't recall seeing anybody? mr. brown. no; i don't recall seeing anyone there. mr. ball. you told me yesterday you saw some officers. mr. brown. well, that would be the police officers--would be the only ones i saw. mr. ball. do you know who those officers were? mr. brown. no, sir; at the time i did, but i wouldn't know now. mr. ball. did you see any officer on stemmons freeway where we have positioned ( ), ( ), and ( ) on this diagram? mr. brown. no, i didn't. mr. ball. now, the place where you marked your location--we will mark that as brown exhibits--the x marks the position of brown, is that correct? mr. brown. yes. mr. ball. that's all. thank you very much. mr. brown. all right. (instrument marked by the reporter as "brown exhibit a," for identification.) mr. ball. thank you very much for coming. mr. brown. all right. testimony of royce g. skelton the testimony of royce g. skelton was taken at : p.m., on april , , in the office of u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. joseph a. ball, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. ball. will you raise your right hand and be sworn? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before the commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth? mr. skelton. i do. mr. ball. will you state your name, please, for the record? mr. skelton. royce g. skelton. mr. ball. what is your business? mr. skelton. i am a mail clerk at the texas louisiana freight bureau. mr. ball. where do you work? mr. skelton. at the texas louisiana freight bureau. mr. ball. where were you born and where did you come from? mr. skelton. i was born in henrietta, tex., may , . mr. ball. and where did you go to school? mr. skelton. i attended all grade schools in wichita falls and i graduated from wichita falls high school. mr. ball. tell me where you went to school. mr. skelton. wichita falls through high school and i attended year at midwestern university. mr. ball. and when did you go to work for the railroad? mr. skelton. february , . mr. ball. what kind of work do you do? mr. skelton. mail clerk. mr. ball. on november , , did you watch the parade, the motorcade of the president? mr. skelton. yes, sir; i went to the triple overpass about : --i think it was : , or something like that. mr. ball. whom did you go down there with? mr. skelton. austin miller and myself. mr. ball. where does he work? mr. skelton. he is a mail clerk also in the same company. mr. ball. where did you stand to watch the parade? mr. skelton. well, we were directly over elm street. mr. ball. directly over elm? mr. skelton. maybe it would be to the left-hand side, if you were on the street. mr. ball. anybody else there on the overpass? mr. skelton. there were quite a few people up there. mr. ball. did you know any of them? mr. skelton. well, i know by sight--i knew the electrician, an old man that's an electrician. mr. ball. frank reilly? mr. skelton. is that his name? mr. ball. the man that was here a moment ago--his name is reilly. mr. skelton. i know him when i see him. mr. ball. yes---- mr. skelton. and austin miller, of course. mr. ball. did you know dodd, the employee of the railroad? mr. skelton. no, sir; like i say, i recognized them off and on when i see them around there. mr. ball. did you see any police officers there? mr. skelton. yes; this man right here--they say it was him--i don't recall whether it was or not. mr. ball. who--mr. brown? mr. skelton. the one who was in here just a while ago--they say he was the one up there, but i don't know. mr. ball. you didn't recognize him there? mr. skelton. no; i didn't recognize him. mr. ball. in other words, you saw some police officers up there? mr. skelton. yes, sir. mr. ball. where were they standing? mr. skelton. there was one standing directly behind me, i think, or in the general vicinity, and there was one on the far side of the triple underpass. mr. ball. by "far side," you mean where? mr. skelton. it would be back on this side. mr. ball. it would be south? mr. skelton. no, sir; that would be the east side--isn't it? mr. ball. elm runs east and west. mr. skelton. it would be the west side. mr. ball. it would be west? mr. skelton. yes, sir; and then there was one back over here on stemmons--i noticed one, at least, over there and one on the railroad overpass on stemmons. mr. ball. how many police officers were on this overpass, the railroad overpass? mr. skelton. two, i would say, sir. that's all i saw. mr. ball. and how many men did you see standing right near on the railroad overpass over elm, just approximately? mr. skelton. eight, including the officer--eight or nine. mr. ball. did you see the president's car turn on elm street? mr. skelton. yes, sir; i saw the car carrying the presidential flag turn. mr. ball. and did you hear something soon after that? mr. skelton. just about the same time the car straightened up--got around the corner--i heard two shots, but i didn't know at that time they were shots. mr. ball. where did they seem to come from? mr. skelton. well, i couldn't tell then, they were still so far from where i was. mr. ball. did the shots sound like they came from where you were standing? mr. skelton. no, sir; definitely not. it sounded like they were right there--more or less like motorcycle backfire, but i thought that they were these dumbballs that they throw at the cement because i could see the smoke coming up off the cement. mr. ball. you saw some smoke come off of the cement? mr. skelton. yes. mr. ball. where did it seem to you that the sound came from, what direction? mr. skelton. towards the president's car. mr. ball. from the president's car? mr. skelton. right around the motorcycles and all that--i couldn't distinguish because it was too far away. mr. ball. how long did you stand there? mr. skelton. i stood there from about : until the time the president was shot. mr. ball. how many shots did you hear? mr. skelton. i think i heard four--i mean--i couldn't be sure. mr. ball. you think you heard four? mr. skelton. yes. mr. ball. how long did you stay there after you heard the fourth shot? mr. skelton. not very long--just as soon as the cars sped away and everything was in a big commotion--we ran down to listen to the radio. we couldn't get anything off of that--we heard that the president had been shot and so we went back up there and the police officer asked us if we had seen the assassination and we told him we had. he said he would like to get a statement from us, so he took us over to the sheriff's office. mr. ball. did you see any pigeons flying or anything like that? mr. skelton. no, sir; i didn't see anything like that--any pigeons at all. mr. ball. i think that's all i have. this will be written up and submitted to you for your signature, if you want to sign it, or you can waive your signature. which do you want to do? mr. skelton. i will waive my signature. i am sure it is all right. mr. ball. that is fine. thank you very much. mr. skelton. there's one thing i could say--you have that other report? mr. ball. what is that? mr. skelton. about when i saw one of the bullets where it hit on the pavement and it hit, the smoke did come from the general vicinity of where you say oswald was. mr. ball. wait a minute--let me ask you some questions about that. tell me, now, about the smoke--did you see some smoke? mr. skelton. after those two shots, and the car came on down closer to the triple underpass, well, there was another shot--two more shots i heard, but one of them--i saw a bullet, or i guess it was a bullet--i take for granted it was--hit in the left front of the president's car on the cement, and when it did, the smoke carried with it--away from the building. mr. ball. you mean there was some smoke in the building? mr. skelton. no; on the pavement--you know, pavement when it is hit with a hard object it will scatter--it will spread. mr. ball. which way did it spread? mr. skelton. it spread just right in line, like you said. mr. ball. i haven't said anything--tell me what you think it was? mr. skelton. like i said--south of us--it would be southwest, you know, in a direct line from the texas depository. mr. ball. i see. in other words, the spray seemed to go to the west; is that right? mr. skelton. yes. mr. ball. all right. thanks very much. i'm going to get you to mark one of these maps and show where you were standing. here is elm and here is the railroad underpass and pay no attention to the diagrams, but show me about where you were standing. mr. skelton. i was about right there (marked instrument referred to as requested by counsel ball). mr. ball. by that "x" we will put the word "skelton" and that is where you were standing with your friend? mr. skelton. approximately--yes. mr. ball. now, did you see any smoke or anything from any place around there? mr. skelton. no, sir; i just stated to your secretary that i heard people say they did, but i didn't. mr. ball. but you did see something light on the street? mr. skelton. yes, sir. mr. ball. about where? mr. skelton. a bullet--let's see--this is kind of out of proportion [referring to diagram], and i would say the bullet hit about right here [indicating on diagram]. mr. ball. then, let's mark that as "skelton ( )" and we will make the first skelton number ( ) and then skelton number ( ), and this x mark here is where you saw the bullet and which way did the spray go? mr. skelton. just like it was going there. mr. ball. mark an arrow showing the direction that you think the spray was going. mr. skelton. (marks the diagram with arrow.) mr. ball. that's fine, and we will make that as an exhibit shelton exhibit a and attach it to your deposition. (instrument marked by the reporter as skelton exhibit a for identification) mr. ball. thank you and that is all. mr. skelton. thank you. testimony of s. m. holland the testimony of s. m holland was taken at : p.m., on april , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. samuel a. stern, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. s m holland was accompanied by his attorney, mr. balford morrison. mr. stern. would you rise please and raise your right hand so as to be sworn. do you solemnly swear the testimony that you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. holland. i do. mr. stern. sit down, please. you have recorded mr. morrison's presence? the reporter. yes. mr. stern. mr holland, you have received a letter from the commission asking you to come and testify today? mr. holland. yes. mr. stern. as you know, the commission is inquiring into all of the facts concerning the assassination of president kennedy and we want your evidence concerning what you saw at the time of the assassination from the place you were standing. may we have, for the record, your name and residence address? mr. holland. s. m. holland, lucille street, irving, tex. mr. stern. what is your occupation? mr. holland. signal supervisor for union terminal railroad. mr. stern. how long have you been employed by that organization? mr. holland. union terminal since . mr. stern. now on friday november , will you describe what you did concerning the president's visit and where you were? mr. holland. well, about : o'clock, a couple of policemen and a plain clothesman came up on top of the triple underpass, and we had some men working up there, and i knew that they was going to have a parade, and i left my office, and walked up to the underpass to talk to the policemen. and they asked me during the parade if i would come back up there and identify people that was supposed to be on that overpass. that is the railroad people. mr. stern. where is your office mr holland? mr. holland. at the union terminal station. mr. stern. is that within walking distance of the triple overpass? mr. holland. yes, it is. about--less than a quarter of a mile, a very short distance. mr. stern. and these policemen that you spoke to, there were altogether? mr. holland. two--there were city policemen and man in plainclothes. i didn't talk to him. i talked to the city policemen. mr. stern. you don't know what his affiliation was? mr. holland. i know he was a plainclothes detective or fbi agent or some thing like that, but i don't know, and i told him i would be back and after lunch i would go up there. mr. stern. approximately what time did you arrive up there? mr. holland. oh, i arrived up there, i guess, about a quarter until , and i would identify each person that came up there that he worked at the union terminal, and department so-and-so. mr. stern. whom did you see there at : when you returned, from then until : ? mr. holland. well, i would have to try to remember who all was up there then. there was mr. reilly and mr. r. c. dodd. mr. stern. mr. reilly? mr. holland. reilly. mr. stern. who was---- mr. holland. r. c. dodd, and n. h. potter and luke winburn. mr. stern. luke? mr. holland. winburn. mr. stern. and---- mr. holland. and a fellow by the name of johnson, he works in the car department. mr. stern. johnson. mr. holland. and there was another fellow who worked at the car department, tall, blond-headed boy, and i can't remember his name. mr. stern. that makes six people so far. are these all employees of---- mr. holland. yes. mr. stern. of the terminal? mr. holland. yes, and they were two men, one of them worked for the katy, and one for the t. & p., that i don't know their names, but i do know that they were railroad people. they were over on business. working on those business cars, and one of them was a katy employee, and one was a t. & p. employee. mr. stern. could you give me their full names? mr. holland. texas & pacific, and the missouri, kansas, texas railroad. mr. stern. you don't know the names of those particular men? mr. holland. no; i don't. mr. stern. did you see them here today? mr. holland. i know the policemen talked to them and got identification from them. mr. stern. yes; but they are not, as far as you know, the two gentlemen that you saw sitting in the anteroom to the u.s. attorney's office just before---- mr. holland. no; neither one of those. mr. stern. did you recognize either of those two men? mr. holland. one of them is a cabdriver, and the other one is an electrician at union terminal. the large fellow is a cabdriver. mr. stern. the electrician, do you know his name? mr. holland. frank reilly. mr. stern. there were two other men out there. perhaps you didn't notice them. i spoke to them after i spoke to you. mr. holland. well, at the time the parade got started they was, i guess--davey cowzert was up there, too. mr. stern. but, just to finish with the two, you didn't recognize either of the two people who were in the anteroom a few moments ago as being people who were on the overpass that day? mr. holland. no. mr. stern. all right. mr. holland. there was two people i did recognize and that was the cabdriver and mr. reilly was out there and that policeman, he was up there with me. mr. stern. you recognized the policeman as being the policeman who was on the triple overpass at the time? mr. holland. yes. mr. stern. fine. now, another name just occurred to you of someone else. mr. holland. cowzert [spelling] c-o-w-z-e-r-t, cowzert. mr. stern. is he also an employee? mr. holland. yes; he is. mr. stern. were all the people there, as far as you know, at the time the presidential motorcade---- mr. holland. yes. mr. stern. came into view? mr. holland. one more, if i can remember his name. one that run around the corner of the fence with me. he was right behind me--why in the world--he was one of the first ones around the fence when we run around the fence to what was happening. mr. stern. before we get to that, how about the police. how many police officers were on the overpass at the time? mr. holland. there were two dallas police officers up there at that time. mr. stern. tell me if this is correct, mr. holland. at the time the presidential motorcade arrived, to the best of your recollection, on the overpass there were two uniformed dallas police, and the following employees of the terminal co.: yourself, mr. reilly, mr. dodd, mr. potter, mr. winburn, mr. johnson, mr. cowzert, and perhaps one other man? mr. holland. that's right. mr. stern. so, that would be eight including yourself, plus two employees of the railroad. one of the t. & p. and one of the katy? mr. holland. that's right. at that time. now, like i said a while ago, by the time they started there was quite a few come up there, but i can't remember who it was or their names, because---- mr. stern. before the motorcade started? mr. holland. before the motorcade started. mr. stern. these were people you recognized as employees? mr. holland. some of them, and some of them i did not recognize, but i think he was asking for credentials. mr. stern. the uniformed policeman? mr. holland. yes; one on that side, and one on this side to keep them---- mr. stern. yes; and did you participate in identifying people as being terminal or railroad employees? mr. holland. when they first started arriving, yes; it was my purpose for going up there. mr. stern. so, that it is fair to say that at the time the president's motorcade turned into this area, there was no one on the overpass that you didn't know either as terminal co. employees, or railroad employees, or as a policeman? mr. holland. wouldn't be fair to say that, because there was quite a few came up there right in the last moments. mr. stern. there were? tell us about that. mr. holland. that i couldn't recognize. there wasn't too many people up there, but there were a few that came up there the last few minutes, but the policemen were questioning them and getting their identification, and---- mr. stern. is this just about the time of the motorcade? mr. holland. just about the time, or just prior to it, because there was a few up there that i didn't--that i didn't recognize myself. mr. stern. had they been, as far as you could tell, checked by the police? mr. holland. he was checking them as they came on top of the underpass. mr. stern. did it seem to you that everybody up there had been checked by this policeman for identification? mr. holland. i think everyone was checked by some person. mr. stern. yes. can you estimate the number of people that were on the overpass immediately as the motorcade came into view? mr. holland. well, i would estimate that there was between to people. mr. stern. now, where was the motorcade when you first saw it? mr. holland. turned off the main street--in front of the county jail. mr. stern. turning right off of main onto houston? mr. holland. it was coming down main and turned off of main onto houston. mr. stern. at that time will you show me on this drawing where you were and just make a mark and put the no. next to that mark. that is where you were at that time? roughly in the middle of the overpass over elm street? mr. holland. that's right. mr. stern. and where, in relation to the concrete fence that---- mr. holland. picket fence or concrete? mr. stern. no; the concrete. mr. holland. oh, the concrete banister? mr. stern. the concrete banister. were you right at the banister? mr. holland. i was; would you like to see the exact location? mr. stern. yes. mr. holland. this is my son standing in the exact location i was in [indicating]. mr. stern. off the record a moment. (discussion off the record.) mr. stern. back on the record. well, then, we'll mark this as exhibit b, reserving exhibit a for this drawing, and exhibit b is a photograph you took on saturday, november , of your son standing in the position at the banister of the triple overpass where you were at the time the motorcade came into view. mr. holland. that's right. mr. stern. fine. that is quite a good picture. at that time, can you indicate, to the best of your knowledge where other persons were standing on the overpass, and particularly in relationship to the two police officers who were on the overpass? mr. holland. well, as well as i remember, one police officer was standing right behind me, or pretty close behind me. mr. stern. put a " " where you believe he was standing. mr. holland. he was standing in close enough so that he could see, but he could also see the people, and the other policeman, i think, unless he left immediately before this happened--see, when they turned there. i didn't turn around and look back any more, but the last time i saw this policeman he was standing over here on this side, about [indicating]. mr. stern. standing almost directly behind you? mr. holland. yes. mr. stern. but, on the other side of the overpass, facing west? mr. holland. yes; all this way, across the tracks. see, these are all railroad tracks, and he was standing over here on this side immediately before this motorcade turned this. now, after they turned, i don't know, but--because i was watching them. mr. stern. yes. would you put a " " where you believe he was standing and can you indicate on there where you believe the other to or people were who were on the overpass at this time. mr. holland. well---- mr. stern. were they all standing in one group? mr. holland. there was a pretty close group between this column here, and this place right in there. in other words, if i can--had a shot of it, we could find that pretty close. i don't know that i have one. mr. stern. what you have indicated on the drawing is on the part of the overpass from one side of elm street to the other. mr. holland. yes; this is one side of elm street, and this would be the other. if you would get over here there would be a banister or something in your way, and this is grass out here, and you couldn't get to get too good a view, and most of the people was from this right in here, over to right in here [indicating]. mr. stern. all right. now---- mr. holland. and this bench runs right along similar to that, up here to this [indicating]. mr. stern. that is a wooden picket fence that you are describing that runs from the end of the concrete banister? mr. holland. that's right. mr. stern. over to a little---- mr. holland. little house there. mr. stern. little---- mr. holland. what do they call that thing? mr. morrison. i don't know. mr. stern. little pavilion? little concrete pavilion? mr. holland. yes. mr. stern. now, what did you observe from that point on, mr. holland? mr. holland. well, i observed the motorcade when it turned off of main street onto houston street and back on elm street. there was two young ladies right across from this sign, which would be, i judge--would say they were standing about here [indicating]. mr. stern. put no. there, please. fine. mr. holland. and the motorcade was coming down in this fashion, and the president was waving to the people on this side [indicating]. mr. stern. that is the north side of elm street? mr. holland. yes; on the north side. mr. stern. all right. mr. holland. and she was looking in this direction [indicating]. mr. stern. "she," is mrs. kennedy? mr. holland. his wife. and about that time---- mr. stern. was looking in a southern direction? mr. holland. in the southern direction. mr. stern. south side of elm street? mr. holland. and about that time he went over like that [indicating], and put his hand up, and she was still looking off, as well as i could tell. mr. stern. now, when you say, "he went like that," you leaned forward and raised your right hand? mr. holland. pulled forward and hand just stood like that momentarily. mr. stern. with his right hand? mr. holland. his right hand; and that was the first report that i heard. mr. stern. what did it sound like? mr. holland. well, it was pretty loud, and naturally, underneath this underpass here it would be a little louder, the concussion from underneath it, it was a pretty loud report, and the car traveled a few yards, and governor connally turned in this fashion, like that [indicating] with his hand out, and another report. mr. stern. with his right hand out? mr. holland. turning to his right. mr. stern. to his right? mr. holland. and another report rang out and he slumped down in his seat, and about that time mrs. kennedy was looking at these girls over here [indicating]. the girls standing--now one of them was taking a picture, and the other one was just standing there, and she turned around facing the president and governor connally. in other words, she realized what was happening, i guess. now, i mean, that was apparently that--she turned back around, and by the time she could get turned around he was hit again along in--i'd say along in here [indicating]. mr. stern. how do you know that? did you observe that? mr. holland. i observed it. it knocked him completely down on the floor. over, just slumped completely over. that second---- mr. stern. did you hear a third report? mr. holland. i heard a third report and i counted four shots and about the same time all this was happening, and in this group of trees--[indicating]. mr. stern. now, you are indicating trees on the north side of elm street? mr. holland. these trees right along here [indicating]. mr. stern. let's mark this exhibit c and draw a circle around the trees you are referring to. mr. holland. right in there. (indicating.) there was a shot, a report, i don't know whether it was a shot. i can't say that. and a puff of smoke came out about or feet above the ground right out from under those trees. and at just about this location from where i was standing you could see that puff of smoke, like someone had thrown a firecracker, or something out, and that is just about the way it sounded. it wasn't as loud as the previous reports or shots. mr. stern. what number would that have been in the---- mr. holland. well, that would--they were so close together. mr. stern. the second and third or the third and fourth? mr. holland. the third and fourth. the third and the fourth. mr. stern. so, that it might have been the third or the fourth? mr. holland. it could have been the third or fourth, but there were definitely four reports. mr. stern. you have no doubt about that? mr. holland. i have no doubt about it. i have no doubt about seeing that puff of smoke come out from under those trees either. mr. stern. mr. holland, do you recall making a statement to an agent of of the fbi several days after? mr. holland. i made a statement that afternoon in sheriff bill decker's office, and then the sunday or the sunday following the friday, there were two fbi men out at my house at the time that oswald was shot. mr. stern. did you tell them that you heard distinctly four shots at that time? mr. holland. yes. mr. stern. you were certain then? mr. holland. i was certain then and i--in that statement i believe that i---- mr. stern. well, the fbi report that i have said that you heard either three or four shots fired together, and i gather the impression of the agent was that you were uncertain whether it was three or four. mr. holland. at the time i made that statement, of course, i was pretty well shook up, but i told the people at the sheriff's office, whoever took the statement, that i believed there was four shots, because they were so close together, and i have also told those two, four, six federal men that have been out there that i definitely saw the puff of smoke and heard the report from under those trees. mr. stern. did you realize that these were shots then? mr. holland. yes; i think i realized what was happening out there. mr. stern. you did? mr. holland. when governor connally was knocked down in the seat. mr. stern. what did you then do? mr. holland. well, immediately after the shots was fired, i run around the end of this overpass, behind the fence to see if i could see anyone up there behind the fence. mr. stern. that is the picket fence? mr. holland. that is the picket fence. mr. stern. on the north side of elm street? mr. holland. of course, this was this sea of cars in there and it was just a big--it wasn't an inch in there that wasn't automobiles and i couldn't see up in that corner. i ran on up to the corner of this fence behind the building. by the time i got there there were or policemen and plainclothesmen, and we looked for empty shells around there for quite a while, and i left because i had to get back to the office. i didn't give anyone my name. no one--didn't anyone ask for it, and it wasn't but an hour or so until the deputy sheriff came down to the office and took me back up to the courthouse. mr. stern. did he know you personally? mr. holland. no, no; he had to find me and find where i was. he didn't know me, and i don't know who told me they wanted me over at the courthouse, so, i went back up there with him and made out the statement, and made--made out the statement before they found out the results on the shots, or before that oswald had even shot that policeman. i was making out the statement before that, so, it was immediately after the motorcade had passed through there. mr stern. what was your impression about the source of these noises, if you had one? mr. holland. well, the impression was that the shots, the first two or three shots came from the upper part of the street, now, from where i was. mr. stern. east on elm? mr. holland. yes, up in here somewhere. [indicating.] i didn't have the least idea that it was up any higher, but i thought the shot was coming--coming from this crowd in here [indicating]. that is what it sounded like to me from where i was. mr. stern. you are indicating on this exhibit c. why don't you put a square around the area that you just pointed to. you had no idea, i take it, that the shots were coming from your area? mr. holland. no. mr. stern. it is your impression that they did not, could not, as far as the sound was concerned? mr. holland. as far as the sound was concerned they did not. mr. stern. did you see anything on the overpass that seemed to you any way unusual? mr. holland. oh, no; no. mr. stern. all right. off the record. (off the record.) mr. stern. back on the record. now, mr. holland, i'm showing you a copy of an affidavit which i am marking as exhibit d. that is the affidavit you made that you described a few moments ago? mr. holland. that's right. mr. stern. would you read that. mr. holland. "i am signal supervisor for the union terminal, and i was inspecting signal and switches and stopped to watch the parade. i was standing on the top of the triple underpass and the president's car was coming down elm street, and when they got just about to the arcade, i heard what i thought for a moment was a firecracker and he slumped over and i looked over toward the arcade and trees and saw a puff of smoke come from the trees and i heard three more shots after the first shot but that was the only puff of smoke i saw. i immediately ran around to where i could see behind the arcade and did not see anyone running from there. but the puff of smoke i saw definitely came from behind the arcade to the trees. after the first shot the president slumped over and mrs. kennedy jumped up and tried to get over in the back seat to him and then the second shot rang out. after the first shot the secret service man raised up in the seat with a machine gun and then dropped back down in the seat. and they immediately sped off. everything is spinning in my head and if i remember anything else later i will come back and tell bill." that is mr. decker. and--brother it was, too. mr. stern. i'm sure it was. mr. holland. stand there and watch two or three men get killed---- mr. stern. now, that statement makes clear that you heard four shots, thought you heard four shots at that time? mr. holland. yes. mr. stern. all right. mr. holland. but, two of them was rather close together, though. mr. stern. so close do you think that might have been one shot? mr. holland. no, it was four. mr. stern. you are clear there were four? mr. holland. no; it was different sounds, different reports. mr. stern. all right. mr. morrison, are there any questions you would like to ask mr. holland to clarify any points that we discussed? mr. morrison. mr. holland, is there anything you might add to this? mr. holland. well, the only thing that i remember now that i didn't then, i remember about the third car down from this fence, there was a station wagon backed up toward the fence, about the third car down, and a spot. i'd say foot by foot, looked to me like somebody had been standing there for a long period. i guess if you could count them about a hundred foottracks in that little spot, and also mud up on the bumper of that station wagon. mr. stern. this was a car back--parked behind the picket fence? well, why don't you put the number " " approximately where that car would have been. mr. holland. if we could call this the arcade [indicating]---- mr. stern. all right. mr. holland. and one, two, three, i think it would have been just about here [indicating]. mr. stern. all right. mr. morrison. that is elm street. it would be behind the fence, wouldn't it? mr. holland. well, i have got the fence running up here, and this car would be back in there [indicating]. this is the trees out here, which would--and that is approximately the same location as--the car and the trees that i saw the smoke would probably be the same location. mr. stern. all right. and this was a station wagon? mr. holland. now, the reason i didn't think so much about that at the time, was because there was so many people out there, and there was law enforcement officers and i thought, well, if there is anything to that they would pick that up, or notice it, but it looks like someone had been standing there for a long time, because it was muddy. mr. stern. tracks you saw in the mud? mr. holland. it was muddy, and you could have if you could have counted them, i imagine it would have been a hundred tracks just in that one location. it was just---- mr. stern. and then you saw some mud on the bumper? mr. holland. mud on the bumper in two spots. mr. stern. as if someone had cleaned his foot, or---- mr. holland. well, as if someone had cleaned their foot, or stood up on the bumper to see over the fence. mr. stern. i see. mr. holland. because, you couldn't very well see over it standing down in the mud, or standing on the ground, and to get a better view you could---- mr. stern. was there anything else you noticed about this station wagon? mr. holland. no. mr. stern. do you recall the---- mr. holland. they searched all the cars in that location. mr. stern. did this occur to you---- mr. holland. it occurred to me immediately when i saw it there; yes. mr. stern. and you thought about it later in the day? mr. holland. i thought about it that night. mr. stern. i see. mr. holland. in fact, i went to bed--it was about a week there i couldn't sleep, much, brother, and i thought about it that night, and i have thought about it a lot of times since then. mr. stern. did you ever go back to look at that site or look at the station wagon? mr. holland. no; i didn't go back that afternoon, because i spent the rest of the day in the county jail office over there, but a number of your federal agents went out there then and secret service men. it was just a beehive. mr. stern. yes. mr. holland. in a matter of a few minutes. mr. stern. did you tell any of the federal officers, or any of the dallas police officers about it? mr. holland. i don't think i did. mr. stern. this is really the first time---- mr. holland. this is the first time that i have discussed it, that i remember. now, i might have told in our conversation. i don't remember that, but i don't think i did. mr. stern. i am not aware of any other occasion in which you did. mr. morrison. you thought the officers there would take care of that? mr. holland. i thought that the officers would take care of it because there were so many there, i thought they would take care of everything, and a layman didn't have any business up there, and i went on back to my office. mr. stern. when you ran behind the picket fence after the shots were fired, did you come near the area where the station wagon was parked? mr. holland. went up to behind the arcade as far as you could go. mr. stern. so, you would have passed where this station wagon was? mr. holland. yes. mr. stern. or, that area? mr. holland. yes; immediately, but i turned around, see, and went to searching in there for empty shells, and three or four agents there then and that is when i walked back to the car there and noticed the tracks there in one little spot. mr. stern. when you first came around, that was quite soon after the shots were fired? mr. holland. yes. mr. stern. and did you notice anything about this station wagon? mr. holland. i was in front of the cars, then i went in front of the cars. mr. stern. in front of the cars---- mr. holland. the cars they were parked pretty close to the fence, and i came up in front of the cars and got over to the fence and then walked back down looking around, just like the rest of them. mr. stern. and that was later you came behind the station wagon? mr. holland. oh, maybe or minutes after i got up there, and or minutes after i got up to the end of the fence. mr. stern. this number of cars, this is an area in which cars are regularly parked? mr. holland. yes. mr. stern. a parking area for the school book depository? mr. holland. no; it is a parking area for the sheriff's department and people over to the courthouse. they park in there. mr. stern. i see. mr. holland. sheriff's department parks in there. district attorneys' cars park in there. it is railroad property, but they let them park in there and save that cents. don't put that down. might get in trouble. now, do you want to know about the two policemen that were riding in that motorcade and one of them throwed the motorcycle down right in the middle of the street and run up towards that location with his gun in his hand. mr. stern. toward---- mr. holland. the location that---- mr. stern. where you saw the puff of smoke? mr. holland. where i saw the puff of smoke. and another one tried to ride up the hill on his motorcycle and got about halfway up there and he run up the rest of the way on foot. mr. stern. go ahead. this is at the time of the---- mr. holland. at the time of the---- mr. stern. that the shots were fired? mr. holland. the shots was fired. mr. stern. two motorcycle policemen who were in the motorcade? mr. holland. in the motorcade, and one of them throwed his motorcycle down right in the middle of the street and ran up the incline with his pistol in his hand, and the other motorcycle policeman jumped over the curb with his motorcycle and tried to ride up the hill on his motorcycle, and he--tipped over with him up there, and he ran up there the rest of the way with his---- mr. stern. did you see anything further involving those two? mr. holland. no; i ran around, i was going around the corner of the fence. mr. stern. when they were coming up the incline? mr. holland. when that happened. mr. stern. but, nothing further came of that, that you observed? mr. holland. no. mr. stern. did you talk to them? mr. holland. no. mr. stern. anything else occur to you? mr. holland. no; that is about all of it. if i have been of any help, i am tickled. mr. stern. you certainly have. i appreciate very much your coming here today. our reporter, mr. holland, will transcribe your testimony, and you then have the opportunity of reviewing it and signing it, or if you prefer you can waive your signature and she will send it directly to the commission. either one, it is entirely up to you, whichever you prefer. mr. morrison. i prefer that he read it and sign it. mr. stern. fine. then the reporter will get in touch with you as soon as his transcript is ready to read. mr. morrison. i would like to say--now, you will cooperate with the authorities in any way? mr. holland. i surely will. mr. morrison. to clear this up? mr. holland. i sure will. mr. morrison. and you and have--you and i have been close personal friends for over years, haven't we? mr. holland. that's right. mr. morrison. and you wanted me to come down here because you thought you would be nervous, and if i were with you maybe you would be less nervous? mr. holland. that's correct, because i was real nervous when i went over to that sheriff's office that afternoon. mr. morrison. i believe that is all. mr. stern. thank you. testimony of j. w. foster the testimony of j. w. foster was taken at : a.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets. dallas, tex., by mr. joseph a. ball, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. ball. do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before this commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. foster. i do. mr. ball. mr. foster, we have requested chief curry to have you come in and testify in this matter before the commission. this commission was established to investigate the facts and circumstances surrounding the assassination of president kennedy. mr. foster. yes, sir. mr. ball. and my name is joseph a. ball. i am a staff officer, staff counsel with the commission. i would like to ask you some questions about this matter. you are willing to testify, aren't you? mr. foster. yes, sir. mr. ball. will you state your address? mr. foster. cooper street. i just moved. mr. ball. what is your occupation? mr. foster. i am a police officer. mr. ball. dallas police department? mr. foster. yes, sir. mr. ball. patrolman? mr. foster. yes, sir. mr. ball. how long have you been on the police department? mr. foster. nine years. mr. ball. where were you born and raised? mr. foster. in hill county, town of hillsboro. mr. ball. what was your education? mr. foster. well---- mr. ball. where did you go to school? mr. foster. hillsboro. mr. ball. how far through school? mr. foster. ninth grade. mr. ball. what did you do after that? mr. foster. service. mr. ball. what branch? in the army or navy---- mr. foster. army. mr. ball. then what did you do? mr. foster. carpenter, worked for about years. mr. ball. then what did you do? mr. foster. come to work here. mr. ball. on the police department? mr. foster. yes. mr. ball. what kind of work were you doing in november of , for the dallas police department? mr. foster. i was working in the traffic division, investigation of accidents. mr. ball. investigation of accidents? mr. foster. yes, sir. mr. ball. did you have a special assignment on november ? mr. foster. yes, sir. mr. ball. . and what was that? mr. foster. that was assigned to the triple overpass to keep all unauthorized personnel off of it. mr. ball. that was the overpass, the railroad overpass? mr. foster. yes, sir. mr. ball. do you--the overpass runs in a north-south direction? mr. foster. yes, sir. mr. ball. and you call it the triple overpass, why? mr. foster. three streets coming through there. mr. ball. what are they? mr. foster. commerce, main, and elm. mr. ball. i have a map that i will--just a moment. i will get it. mr. foster. all right. (off the record.) mr. ball. tell me where you were standing on the triple overpass about the time that the president's motorcade came into sight? mr. foster. i was standing approximately along the--i believe the south curb of elm street. mr. ball. were you on the overpass? mr. foster. yes, sir; at the east--be the east side of the overpass. mr. ball. on the east side of the overpass? mr. foster. yes, sir. mr. ball. then was there another officer assigned to that same position? mr. foster. he was assigned to the overpass with me; yes, sir. mr. ball. what is his name? mr. foster. j. c. white. mr. ball. where was he? mr. foster. he was on the west side of the overpass. mr. ball. you were on the east side? mr. foster. yes, sir. mr. ball. he was on the west side? mr. foster. yes, sir. mr. ball. off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. ball. let's go back on the record. now, we have a map here which we will mark as exhibit a for your deposition. mr. foster. yes, sir. mr. ball. and it shows the railroad overpass running in a north and south direction, is that right? mr. foster. yes, sir. mr. ball. over that pass come trains into the yard, is that right? mr. foster. yes, sir. mr. ball. and that yard is to the north and west of the texas book depository building? mr. foster. well, that whole thing, they have yards all over up there. mr. ball. in what general direction from the texas school book depository building? mr. foster. they have yards to the north, and some to the south of it down below the terminal. mr. ball. there are yards south? mr. foster. they have yards here [indicating]. mr. ball. that is north and west? mr. foster. yes, sir. mr. ball. and also south? mr. foster. that's right. mr. ball. now, did you see the president's motorcade come into sight? mr. foster. yes, sir. mr. ball. where did you see it? where was it when you saw it? mr. foster. when i first saw it it was coming off of main street onto houston. mr. ball. and did you keep it in sight? mr. foster. yes, sir; it was in sight most of the time. mr. ball. now, where were you standing? mr. foster. standing along the east curb of--east side of the overpass over elm street there. about the south curb. mr. ball. over, above the south curb of elm? mr. foster. yes, sir. mr. ball. will you put a mark on there? mark an "x" where you were standing and write your initials right next to that "x". j.--what are the initials? mr. foster. j. w. mr. ball. j. w. f. that marks where you were standing. mr. foster. approximately; yes, sir. mr. ball. did you keep the president's motorcade in sight after it turned? mr. foster. other than watching the men that were standing on the overpass there with me. mr. ball. now, you had instructions to keep all unauthorized personnel off of that overpass? mr. foster. yes, sir. mr. ball. did you do that? mr. foster. yes, sir. mr. ball. did you permit some people to be there? mr. foster. yes, sir. mr. ball. who? mr. foster. people that were working for the railroad there. mr. ball. were there many people? mr. foster. about or . mr. ball. where were they standing? mr. foster. they were standing along the east banister. mr. ball. the east banister? mr. foster. yes, sir; in front of me. mr. ball. in front of you. will you make a mark there and show the general area where they were standing? mr. foster. they were standing along this area here [indicating]. mr. ball. you have marked a series of x's to show where about people were standing? mr. foster. yes, sir. mr. ball. were you looking toward them? mr. foster. yes, sir. mr. ball. did you have another officer with you there on that duty that day? mr. foster. not on that side. he was on the west side. mr. ball. he was on the west side? mr. foster. yes, sir. mr. ball. what was his name? mr. foster. j. c. white. mr. ball. do you know exactly where he was when you were at the position you have indicated? mr. foster. no; i don't. the only thing i know, he was supposed to be on the west side of the banister. mr. ball. you were looking to the east? mr. foster. yes, sir. mr. ball. now, tell me what you saw happen after the president's car passed--turned onto elm from houston. mr. foster. after he came onto elm i was watching the men up on the track more than i was him. then i heard a loud noise, sound like a large firecracker. kind of dumbfounded at first, and then heard the second one. i moved to the banister of the overpass to see what was happening. then the third explosion, and they were beginning to move around. i ran after i saw what was happening. mr. ball. what did you see was happening? mr. foster. saw the president slump over in the car, and his head looked just like it blew up. mr. ball. you saw that, did you? mr. foster. yes, sir. mr. ball. and what did you do then? mr. foster. well, at that time i broke and ran around to my right--to the left--around to the bookstore. mr. ball. now, did you have any opinion at that time as to the source of the sounds, the direction of the sounds? mr. foster. yes, sir. mr. ball. what? mr. foster. it came from back in toward the corner of elm and houston streets. mr. ball. that was your impression at that time? mr. foster. yes, sir. mr. ball. was any shot fired from the overpass? mr. foster. no, sir. mr. ball. did you see anyone with a weapon there? mr. foster. no, sir. mr. ball. or did you hear any sound that appeared to come from the overpass? mr. foster. no, sir. mr. ball. where did you go from there? mr. foster. went on around the back side of the bookstore. mr. ball. immediately? mr. foster. yes, sir. mr. ball. did you see anybody coming out of that side of the bookstore? mr. foster. no, sir. mr. ball. backside? what do you mean by that? mr. foster. well, i guess you would say the northwest side of it. mr. ball. were there any people in the railroad yards around the bookstore at that time? mr. foster. yes, sir. there was a pretty good crowd beginning to gather back in that area. mr. ball. at that time? mr. foster. yes, sir. mr. ball. had you seen anybody over at the railroad yard north and west of the bookstore before you heard the shots fired? mr. foster. no; other than people that had come up there and i sent them back down the roadway. mr. ball. i see. people had attempted to get on the overpass there? mr. foster. yes, sir. mr. ball. and you had sent them away? mr. foster. yes, sir. mr. ball. when you got over to the school book depository building, what did you do? mr. foster. i was standing around in back there to see that no one came out, and the sergeant came and got me and we were going to check the--all the railroad cars down there. mr. ball. who was that sergeant? mr. foster. sergeant came up there. mr. ball. did you search the railroad cars? mr. foster. no; he sent me back down to the inspector. told me to report back to inspector sawyer. mr. ball. where? mr. foster. at the front of the book depository. mr. ball. did you talk to sawyer there? mr. foster. yes, sir. mr. ball. did you tell your sergeant or sawyer, either one where you thought the shots came from? mr. foster. yes, sir. mr. ball. what did you then tell them? mr. foster. told them it came from that vicinity up around elm and houston. mr. ball. did you tell the sergeant that first, or did you tell that to sawyer? mr. foster. told that to inspector sawyer. mr. ball. you told that to sawyer? mr. foster. yes, sir. mr. ball. did you tell that to the sergeant? mr. foster. i don't know whether i told the sergeant that or not. mr. ball. what did you do after that? mr. foster. i moved to--down the roadway there, down to see if i could find where any of the shots hit. mr. ball. find anything? mr. foster. yes, sir. found where one shot had hit the turf there at the location. mr. ball. hit the turf? mr. foster. yes, sir. mr. ball. did you see any marks on the street in any place? mr. foster. no, a manhole cover. it was hit. they caught the manhole cover right at the corner and---- mr. ball. you saw a mark on a manhole cover did you? mr. foster. yes, sir. mr. ball. i show you a picture here of a concrete slab, or manhole cover. do you recognize that picture? mr. foster. yes, sir. mr. ball. does the picture show--tell me what it shows there. mr. foster. this looks like the corner here where it penetrated the turf right here [indicating]. mr. ball. see any mark on the manhole cover? mr. foster. no, sir; i don't. not on the--well, it is on the turf, on the concrete, right in the corner. mr. ball. can you put an arrow showing the approximate place you saw that? mr. foster. should have been approximately along here [indicating]. mr. ball. make it deep enough to make a mark. the arrow marks the position that you believe you saw a mark on the pavement? mr. foster. yes, sir. mr. ball. it was not on the manhole cover? mr. foster. no, sir. mr. ball. went into the turf? mr. foster. yes, sir. mr. ball. did you recover any bullet? mr. foster. no, sir. it ricocheted on out. mr. ball. did you have the crime lab make a picture of that spot? mr. foster. i called them to the location. mr. ball. and told them to make a picture? mr. foster. no, i didn't tell them. called them to the spot and let them take it. can i see the picture? mr. ball. yes, sir. is this the picture? mr. foster. that resembles the picture. mr. ball. i offer this as "b," then. mark it as "b" so that we have "a" and "b" now. officer, this will be written up and submitted to you for your signature and you can read it over and change it any way you wish, or you may waive your signature at this time, which do you prefer? mr. foster. well, it doesn't matter. mr. ball. suit yourself. you make the choice. mr. foster. i would just as soon go ahead and sign it. mr. ball. all right. we will notify you and you can get in here and sign it. mr. foster. all right. mr. ball. thank you. one moment, please. who gave you your assignment, mr. foster? mr. foster. sergeant harkness. mr. ball. you did permit some railroad employees to remain on the overpass? mr. foster. yes, sir. mr. ball. how did you determine they were railroad employees? mr. foster. by identification they had with them. identification they had and the other men that was with them verifying that they were employees. mr. ball. okay. testimony of j. c. white the testimony of j. c. white was taken at : a.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. joseph a. ball, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. ball. all right, will you stand up and be sworn. do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. white. i do. mr. ball. all right. mr. ball. will you state your name, please. mr. white. j. c. white. mr. ball. what is your residence? mr. white. klondite. mr. ball. and your occupation? mr. white. policeman. mr. ball. did you receive a letter from the commission? mr. white. no, sir. mr. ball. for a request to---- mr. white. no, sir. mr. ball. you were asked to come here by your---- mr. white. captain. mr. ball. which captain? mr. white. lawrence. mr. ball. now, the commission was established to investigate the facts and circumstances surrounding the assassination of president kennedy. we want to ask you some questions about information that you might have that might aid us in that investigation. i am a staff officer of the commission named ball. joseph a. ball. i am authorized to administer the oath to you, to make this inquiry. during the course of our investigation in dallas we discovered that you and the man that you were working with that day, mr. j. w. foster, knew of some facts that might aid us in the investigation. we asked chief curry if we could have you come up here and testify, and i guess that is the reason you are here. you are willing to testify, are you not? mr. white. yes, sir. mr. ball. tell us whatever you know about it. mr. white. i don't know. mr. ball. well, i can ask you. mr. white. okay. mr. ball. i will ask you questions. where were you born? mr. white. van alstyne, tex. mr. ball. where did you go to school? mr. white. van alystyne, tex. mr. ball. how far through school? mr. white. ninth grade there. mr. ball. then what did you do? mr. white. i went into the army. mr. ball. and how long were you in the army? mr. white. about years. mr. ball. and what did you do? mr. white. went to driving a city bus. mr. ball. how long did you drive a city bus? mr. white. years. mr. ball. then what did you do? mr. white. joined the police department. mr. ball. how long ago? mr. white. . mr. ball. and what are you now? mr. white. accident investigator. mr. ball. and your rank is a patrolman? mr. white. yes, sir. mr. ball. now, on november , , did you have an assignment? mr. white. yes, sir. mr. ball. where? mr. white. on the triple underpass. mr. ball. and were you there with someone? mr. white. yes, sir. mr. ball. who? mr. white. j. w. foster. mr. ball. where were you? mr. white. standing on the west side of the overpass. mr. ball. on the west side of the overpass? mr. white. yes. mr. ball. where were you with reference to elm, main or commerce as they go underneath the overpass? mr. white. approximately at the north curb of main street. mr. ball. approximately the north curb of main on the corner of the north curb of main? that would be---- mr. white. yes, sir. mr. ball. on the west side of the overpass? mr. white. yes. mr. ball. i'm going to get another copy of this map. let me see. i can use this. mark this as exhibit a to your deposition. now, a diagram that was drawn by a patrolman, joe murphy, and he has made some marks and other witnesses have, but don't pay any attention to that. i want you to look at this drawing and take a pen and mark your position on the railroad overpass in a circle, and put your initials beside it. you have made an "x". mr. white. yes, sir. mr. ball. and you have initialed j. c. white, is that right? mr. white. yes, sir. mr. ball. over the--what would be the west curb of main? mr. white. north curb of main. mr. ball. the north curb? mr. white. yes. mr. ball. north curb of main? mr. white. yes, sir. mr. ball. and west side of the overpass? mr. white. yes, sir. mr. ball. is there a rail there? mr. white. yes, sir. mr. ball. how many people were on that overpass that day? mr. white. on the same side i was on? mr. ball. yes. mr. white. none. mr. ball. none? any people attempt to come up on the overpass around noon? mr. white. not on my side. mr. ball. they did not? mr. white. no, sir. mr. ball. had you seen your partner send any people away from the overpass? mr. white. yes, sir. mr. ball. you had certain instructions, didn't you? mr. white. yes, sir. mr. ball. what were they? mr. white. not to let any unauthorized personnel on top of the overpass. mr. ball. now, you did permit some people to stay on the overpass, didn't you? mr. white. yes, sir. mr. ball. who were they? mr. white. workers of the railroad company. mr. ball. were they people you knew? mr. white. no, sir. mr. ball. well, how did you know they were workers with the railroad company? mr. white. majority of them were there when we got there, working on the rails. mr. ball. and you let them stay there? mr. white. yes, sir. mr. ball. did you see the president's car come into sight? mr. white. no, sir; first time i saw it it has passed, passed under the triple underpass. mr. ball. you were too far away to see it, were you? mr. white. there was a freight train traveling. there was a train passing between the location i was standing and the area from which the procession was traveling, and--a big long freight train, and i did not see it. mr. ball. you didn't see the procession? mr. white. no, sir. mr. ball. before the train went by, did you see some railroad personnel over on the--would it be the---- mr. white. east side? mr. ball. east side of the overpass? mr. white. yes, sir. mr. ball. how many people? mr. white. about , approximately. i didn't count them. mr. ball. did you hear any shots? mr. white. no, sir. mr. ball. didn't? mr. white. no, sir. mr. ball. first time you saw the president's car it was going underneath? mr. white. yes, sir. mr. ball. what did you do after that? mr. white. as soon as the train passed i went over and on the northwest side of the depository building. on the northwest side of the book store up there with the rest of the officers and after about minutes they told me to go out and work traffic at main and houston, and i stood out there and worked traffic. mr. ball. all right, now, you heard no sound of no rifle fire or anything? mr. white. no, sir. mr. ball. freight train was going through at the time? mr. white. yes, sir. mr. ball. making noise? mr. white. yes, sir; noisy train. mr. ball. mr. white, mr. foster was on the east side of the overpass? mr. white. yes, sir. mr. ball. this deposition will be written up and submitted to you for your signature if you wish to sign it, or you can waive your signature. which do you wish to do? mr. white. you said a while ago to him it would be written up like this? is that correct? mr. ball. no, it will be written up in the form of a deposition. mr. white. i will waive. mr. ball. you waive it. okay. fine. testimony of joe e. murphy the testimony of joe e. murphy was taken at : a.m., on april , , in the office of u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. joseph a. ball, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. ball. will you raise your right hand and be sworn? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before the commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. murphy. i do. mr. ball. will you state your name and address for the record? mr. murphy. joe e. murphy, winthrop; (spelling) w-i-n-t-h-r-o-p, drive. mr. ball. and what is your occupation? mr. murphy. police officer. mr. ball. how long have you been with the department? mr. murphy. i am in my st year. mr. ball. with the dallas police department? mr. murphy. yes. mr. ball. where were you born? mr. murphy. dallas. mr. ball. where did you go to school? mr. murphy. high school--st. joseph high school here in dallas. mr. ball. you went all through school here in dallas, did you? mr. murphy. yes, sir; that's right. mr. ball. what did you do after you got out of high school? mr. murphy. well, i played pro baseball for about years, class d--west texas and new mexico league. after that i went to work for the humble oil and refining co. in baytown. i was down there about years and came back to dallas and then i went to work on the police force. mr. ball. and you have been there ever since? mr. murphy. yes. mr. ball. you are a patrolman, are you? mr. murphy. that's right. mr. ball. do you have a three-wheeler? mr. murphy. a three-wheeler--yes. mr. ball. on november , , did they assign you to some post? mr. murphy. yes, i was assigned to the overpass--the stemmons freeway overpass northbound at elm street--over elm. mr. ball. what instructions did you have? mr. murphy. it was to keep anyone and everyone off of the overpass and to keep traffic moving until the motorcade arrived. mr. ball. now, you have a map here which you have drawn for us to show your position, is that right? (reporter marked instrument--murphy exhibit a, for identification.) mr. murphy. yes; that's right. mr. ball. and you have drawn a position there as to where you were standing, is that right? mr. murphy. that's right. mr. ball. and where you parked your three-wheeler? mr. murphy. yes. mr. ball. all right, mark the place where you were standing as position , using an "x". mr. murphy. all right. (witness murphy marked the diagram as requested by counsel ball.) mr. ball. and your three-wheeler was beside you? mr. murphy. yes; right on the shoulder. mr. ball. were there any other officers on that overpass? mr. murphy. yes; there were two more about--oh, a feet south of me--to slow traffic or to stop traffic whenever the motorcade entered the stemmons freeway north entrance. mr. ball. now where were they located--and, did they as the motorcade came down elm street, did they go into the highway and stop traffic? mr. murphy. yes; they did. mr. ball. will you put their positions on the stemmons freeway overpass at the time the motorcade came west on elm, and mark it ( ) and ( ). mr. murphy. (marked diagram as requested by counsel ball.) mr. ball. do you know the names of those officers that were ( ) and ( )? mr. murphy. i can't recall. i know them but i can't recall who they were. mr. ball. were they three-wheeler officers too, do they drive three-wheelers? mr. murphy. i believe both of them three-wheelers. mr. ball. and as the motorcade came west on elm, did they stop traffic on stemmons freeway? mr. murphy. yes, their main job was to slow it and let the officers farther down the freeway--they would stop it, but traffic approaches pretty fast and they were to slow traffic and let the officers then stop it. they did--they--they stepped into and were slowing the traffic as the motorcade came under that railroad overpass. mr. ball. did they ever stop traffic completely? mr. murphy. well, it stopped--it stopped itself back down when all the excitement--someone down there--they blocked the whole street and then it backed up, is what it did--backed up to our position. mr. ball. on stemmons freeway? mr. murphy. yes. mr. ball. now position ( ) is where you were standing? mr. murphy. yes. mr. ball. were there any people standing on the overpass over elm, on the stemmons freeway overpass over elm, as the motorcade came down? mr. murphy. no; there was no one standing there prior to the arrival of the motorcade or after the motorcade arrived. mr. ball. the only one standing there was you? mr. murphy. it was me. mr. ball. now, let's go to the railroad overpass, and first of all, as you turned west on elm from houston, what is the first overpass that you encounter? mr. murphy. there is a railroad overpass--all of the trains entering and leaving the union station cross over that overpass. mr. ball. were there any officers on that overpass? mr. murphy. there were two. mr. ball. can you mark their positions, approximately, as you saw them before the motorcade arrived? mr. murphy. as best i could see--one was on each side--one here and one over on this side. mr. ball. all right, mark the position of the officer on the west side as position ( ), and the one on the east side as position ( ). (the witness murphy marked the diagram as requested by counsel ball.) mr. ball. were these uniformed officers? mr. murphy. yes, they were. mr. ball. do you know their names? mr. murphy. no, sir; i don't. mr. ball. did they have three-wheelers? mr. murphy. no; i couldn't say. mr. ball. now, were there any other people besides the two officers on this railroad overpass? mr. murphy. there were about or --from what i could see--about or men dressed in the overalls and they appeared to be railroad employees. mr. ball. can you mark in their positions, approximately? mr. murphy. well, they were in a group right in the center of elm street. mr. ball. they were all together? mr. murphy. yes; it appeared that they were in a group (witness murphy drew circle indicating presence of persons heretofore mentioned as requested by counsel ball). mr. ball. you have drawn a circle there? mr. murphy. yes. mr. ball. and mark that ( ). (witness murphy marked the diagram as requested by counsel ball.) mr. ball. and in that circle there were about how many? mr. murphy. to persons. mr. ball. there were to persons approximately, dressed in overalls? mr. murphy. yes. mr. ball. did you see any other people on the railroad overpass? mr. murphy. no, sir; i didn't. mr. ball. could you see the motorcade on houston from your position ( )? mr. murphy. yes; i could. mr. ball. did you see the president's car turn the corner of main and houston? mr. murphy. yes; i did. mr. ball. that was in your view, was it? mr. murphy. yes; it was. mr. ball. was the corner of houston and elm within your view? mr. murphy. just a portion of it--you lose sight of it there for just a few seconds, as it makes the turn. well, you lose sight of it. there is some kind of a--on that part there is a concrete, oh, i don't know what you would call it--kind of a framework--it appears to be. mr. ball. in other words, there is an obstruction to your view? mr. murphy. yes. mr. ball. from where you were standing at position ( )? mr. murphy. yes. mr. ball. and the corner of the intersection of houston and elm? mr. murphy. yes. mr. ball. were you able to see the president's car after it had turned west on elm from houston? mr. murphy. well, again there, you just get a very short view of it before it goes out of sight then, going down that hill. mr. ball. you heard shots, did you? mr. murphy. yes, i did. mr. ball. now, from the time you saw the president's car turn north on houston from main and until you heard the shots, what direction were you looking? mr. murphy. i was looking in an easterly direction. mr. ball. toward what? mr. murphy. toward the motorcade--towards the president's car. mr. ball. did you keep the motorcade in sight at all times? mr. murphy. yes, i did. mr. ball. did you see anything unusual occur in this group of railroad men where you have marked position ( )? mr. murphy. no, i didn't--i did not. mr. ball. anybody armed there? mr. murphy. no, not that i could tell. mr. ball. can you tell me what direction the policemen were looking who were at position ( ) and ( )? mr. murphy. they appeared to be looking in an easterly direction also. mr. ball. the direction of the motorcade? mr. murphy. yes. mr. ball. and did you see other individuals on that railroad overpass except the ones you have described? mr. murphy. no, just that group that i have described. mr. ball. now, you say you heard something--heard shots? mr. murphy. yes. mr. ball. describe to me your best recollection as to what you heard? mr. murphy. well, i heard--i knew they were shots as soon as i heard them, but i thought at first it was--it sounded like a shotgun, and then i got the three shots and there were so many echoes and everything--then i did determine it sounded more like a rifle. i do quite a bit of hunting and i determined it sounded more like a rifle. mr. ball. those shots came from what direction? mr. murphy. well, just from the direction i was looking--that's all i could tell. they came from an easterly direction, from where i was standing. mr. ball. and were there echoes? mr. murphy. yes, quite a few. mr. ball. did the men who were on the overpass at position ( ) do anything? mr. murphy. i don't recall--on that overpass--right after the shots, i did see then a group of people running up the side of this embankment on elm and running. that would be here--right in here. mr. ball. to the north of elm? mr. murphy. to the north of elm. mr. ball. would you put an arrow showing the direction they were running and mark that arrow as " "--that's the direction you saw people running? mr. murphy. (marked diagram as requested by counsel ball.) yes, they were running up in this direction and then in behind this book depository. oh, i could tell a lot of them were photographers, because i could see their cameras in their hands and then a number of other people, and then i did see some officers also running in that direction. mr. ball. did you see what the railroad men did who were at position ( ) on your map? mr. murphy. no; because right at that time that traffic began backing up on the freeway and i had turned in to try to keep them moving, but i found that i couldn't move them because it was blocked down below me, north of me and there was traffic just stacked up from where the other officers had it stopped there. mr. ball. how long did you stay at your position? mr. murphy. well, i stayed until, i guess, it was about maybe minutes after we heard the shots and then the broadcast came over the radio that there had been a shooting--the president had been shot--and then i went towards the book depository. i got on my motor and went towards the book depository then--off of the freeway; and then was there up around the book depository for the next--i would say hour or hour and a half at least. mr. ball. did you talk to any witnesses? mr. murphy. i did pick up or talk to three or four people that said they had seen things and said they heard different things, and i took them to the sheriff's office across the street. mr. ball. do you knew what their names were? mr. murphy. no, sir; i couldn't tell you. i turned them over to the investigators there with the sheriff's department--the district attorney's investigators, that's who they were. mr. ball. you didn't make any notes of their names? mr. murphy. no, sir; i didn't. mr. ball. do you remember now what any of them told you? mr. murphy. well, one man in particular--he was standing on elm--he was standing right about here where we have marked position ( ), and he claimed that he heard two shots above him and behind him, and one shot from up around the edge of this park, and another man claimed that he had been standing nearly in this same position--he was standing here on the street and he claimed that all the shots he heard came from overhead to his rear. mr. ball. that would be near the texas school book depository? mr. murphy. yes, towards that book depository. mr. ball. did you go on the police radio and make any announcement or statement? mr. murphy. no, sir; i didn't. it was so jammed, i didn't make any. mr. ball. i would like to have this marked as exhibit a to your deposition, which is illustrative of your testimony. (instrument marked by the reporter as murphy exhibit no. a, for identification.) mr. ball. this will be written up and you can come in and look it over and sign it if you wish, or you can waive signature if you wish. it is your option--what would you like to do? mr. murphy. well, if it's necessary, i will sign it. if it isn't, that's perfectly all right with me. mr. ball. it isn't necessary. mr. murphy. well, that's all right then. mr. ball. then, you will waive signature? mr. murphy. yes, sir. mr. ball. thanks very much for coming in. mr. murphy. all right--certainly. testimony of roger d. craig the testimony of roger d. craig was taken at : p.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. david w. belin, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. belin. roger craig, do you want to stand and raise your right hand, please? do you solemnly swear that the testimony that you're about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. craig. i do. mr. belin. you can be seated. mr. belin. will you please state your full name? mr. craig. roger dean craig. mr. belin. that's (spelling) d-e-a-n? mr. craig. yes. mr. belin. and where do you live, mr. craig? mr. craig. overlook drive, dallas. mr. belin. and what's your occupation? mr. craig. deputy sheriff. mr. belin. for the dallas county sheriff's department? mr. craig. yes. mr. belin. how old are you, mr. craig? mr. craig. . mr. belin. were you raised here in texas? mr. craig. no. i was born in wisconsin, raised in minnesota; and ran away from home when i was and traveled all over the country. mr. belin. when you were ? mr. craig. yes. mr. belin. did you have any further schooling after you were --or not? mr. craig. no; i took high school equivalent test in the service in japan when--uh--i was , and passed it and got my high school equivalent test--i mean, my diploma. mr. belin. were you in the service, then? mr. craig. yes; uh-huh. mr. belin. in what branch? mr. craig. i was in the army. mr. belin. and how long were you in the army? mr. craig. years. mr. belin. before you joined the army, what did you do? were you living with anyone or were you on your own--or what? mr. craig. no; i was married to a girl who lived out in mesquite. mr. belin. where? mr. craig. mesquite. it's a suburb of dallas. it's not a town. mr. belin. uh-huh. well, let me go back a little bit. you said you ran away from home when you were ? mr. craig. uh-huh. mr. belin. and then where did you live? mr. craig. i lived in south dakota, worked on ranches up there, and then wyoming, nebraska, colorado, new mexico, oklahoma. mr. belin. well, with any relatives--or were they friends, or what? mr. craig. no, no; just jobs. just working here and there. mr. belin. and then you were married when you were---- mr. craig. . mr. belin. . and where? mr. craig. here in texas. mr. belin. here in texas. and then you enlisted in the army when? mr. craig. i volunteered for the draft when i was . mr. belin. and then you went in the service? mr. craig. right. mr. belin. and served overseas? mr. craig. right. mr. belin. you were discharged when, then? mr. craig. in--uh--october of , i believe. in september or october of , sir, is when i got out. mr. belin. was it an honorable discharge? mr. craig. yes. mr. belin. what did you do when you were in the service? mr. craig. i served in the--uh--motor pool of the d armored field. mr. belin. and, after you got out of service, what did you do? mr. craig. well, jobs were kind of hard to get. i got a job as a dishwasher in a cafe, then cook. then i did construction work for a while. and then i went to work for the purex corporation out on storey lane here in dallas-- storey lane. then i worked for them for about - / years. then, i came down to the sheriff's office. mr. belin. now, what would your job have been there with the purex corp.? mr. craig. packager. i just packaged the purex. mr. belin. and when did you go to work for the dallas county sheriff's office? mr. craig. in october--october the th of . mr. belin. and you've been there ever since? mr. craig. yes. mr. belin. are you married? mr. craig. yes. mr. belin. family? mr. craig. yes; i have a girl and a boy and a stepboy. mr. belin. now, mr. craig, i want to take you back to november d, , and ask you whether or not you were working at the sheriff's office that day? mr. craig. yes. mr. belin. where is the sheriff's office located? mr. craig. main street. mr. belin. and where is main street? is it on the north or the south side of main? mr. craig. it's on the north side of main at the corner of houston. mr. belin. it runs from houston east to record street there? is that record street there? mr. craig. no; the sheriff's office actually runs north from main over to elm street. it covers that entire block. mr. belin. how far east does it go--or is it just a half-block east? mr. craig. no; it's just a half block to--uh--well, it's divided, then the records building begins and goes on to record street. mr. belin. to record street. well, will you state what you did that day from about noon on--on november ? mr. craig. i stood out in front waiting for the president's motorcade. i went out there about--oh-- minutes after , i guess; waited directly in front of the front door on the curb. mr. belin. that would be on the north curb of main? mr. craig. right. mr. belin. all right. then what happened? mr. craig. well, we waited there for several minutes--and--uh--the motorcade finally came by. mr. belin. about how fast was the motorcade going when you saw it on main street? mr. craig. oh, just barely moving. i don't know. it was just barely moving. i couldn't judge any miles per hour. mr. belin. well, , , , --what? mr. craig. probably going--probably or miles an hour. mr. belin. all right. you saw the president's car? mr. craig. yes. mr. belin. you saw the motorcade reach the intersection of main and houston? mr. craig. yes. mr. belin. and then it turned? mr. craig. turned north on houston. mr. belin. about how fast was it going as it turned north on houston? mr. craig. oh, about the same. they--uh--they were going about the same speed as they made the corner. mr. belin. were there any motorcycle policemen alongside the president's car? mr. craig. uh--not directly beside it. they was, i believe, on the front part of it and--uh--i believe behind it--just a little ways behind the back fender there was a motorcycle officer--one on each side of the car, as i remember. mr. belin. the ones on the front--where would the back wheels of the motorcycles have been with relation to the front wheels of the president's car? mr. craig. uh--just in front of the bumper because they came by and moved everybody back, you know, as the car approached us. mr. belin. and what about the motorcycles that were just behind the car? where were the front wheels of those motorcycles with relation to the back wheels or the back bumper of the president's car? mr. craig. about equal to the back bumper. mr. belin. all right. you saw the president's car, then, turn north on houston? mr. craig. yes. mr. belin. then, would you describe what you saw and heard and did? mr. craig. well, there were several other cars that came by and--uh---- mr. belin. did you watch those? mr. craig. some of them we watched. we watched mr. decker's car, of course, and a few of the others. mr. belin. now, where was mr. decker's car? mr. craig. i believe he came by just before the president's. i believe there were some dignitaries and things before that, and then we watched the president's and--uh--oh, and then about two or three cars after the president's car had passed. and then we were just standing there looking around, you know. mr. belin. all right. then what happened? mr. craig. then i heard an explosion. mr. belin. when you heard the explosion, what did you do? mr. craig. well, the first--nothing. i wrestled with my mind. i knew it was a shot but--uh--i didn't want to believe it. but, a few seconds later, i heard another explosion and, this time, i knew it was a shot. and, as i began to run, i heard a third one. i was running toward houston street. mr. belin. how many explosions did you hear altogether? mr. craig. three. mr. belin. about how far were these noises apart? mr. craig. the first one was--uh--about three seconds-- or seconds. mr. belin. two or seconds between the first and the second? mr. craig. well, it was quite a pause between there. it could have been a little longer. mr. belin. and what about between the second and third? mr. craig. not more than seconds. it was--they were real rapid. mr. belin. all right. then what did you do? mr. craig. i continued running across houston street, across the parkway, across elm street and, by this time, the motorcade had went on down elm street and i ran up to the railroad yard and--uh--started to look around when the people began to all travel over that way. so, i began moving people back out of the railroad yard. mr. belin. where did the noises or shots sound to you like they came from? mr. craig. it was hard to tell because--uh--they had an echo, you know. there was actually two explosions with each one. there was the--uh--the shot and then the echo from it. so, it was hard to tell. mr. belin. did people tell you, as you ran over there, where they thought the shots came from? mr. craig. no; as i reached the railroad yard, i talked to a girl getting her car that--uh--thought they came from the park area on the north side of elm street. mr. belin. did she say why she thought they came from there? mr. craig. no; she was standing there and it sounded real loud at that particular point---- mr. belin. uh-huh. mr. craig. and she thought that's where they came from. mr. belin. did anyone say they had seen anything--such as a rifle? mr. craig. yes; later on. a few minutes after that--i had taken this girl to one of our criminal investigators--and was talking to some other people. i talked to a young couple and the boy said he saw two men on the--uh--sixth floor of the book depository building over there; one of them had a rifle with the telescopic sight on it--but he thought they were secret service agents on guard and didn't report it. this was about--uh--oh, he said, minutes before the motorcade ever arrived. mr. belin. do you remember if that boy's name would have been arnold rowland--(spelling) r-o-w-l-a-n-d? mr. craig. yes. mr. belin. does that sound like it? mr. craig. yes; it sounds like the name--yes. mr. belin. his wife might be barbara rowland? mr. craig. yes; i believe her name was barbara. mr. belin. before you talked to this couple, did you do anything else or talk with anyone before you got back with them? mr. craig. well, i looked around, you know, for just--after i turned this girl over to mr. lewis--i began looking around and talking to people to see if they'd seen anything. and that's when i ran onto this man and his wife. mr. belin. and about what time do you think this was in relation to--from when you heard the shots to the time that you talked to this young couple? mr. craig. i don't know. minutes, maybe. mr. belin. you believe you talked to this young couple minutes after the shots were fired? mr. craig. it might have been minutes. mr. belin. all right. then, what did you do? but, first of all, let me ask you this: did this girl say that she saw any person with a rifle? mr. craig. no; no. mr. belin. now, the boy--where did he say that he saw the man with the rifle? mr. craig. on the--uh--west end of the building on the sixth floor. mr. belin. would that be--when you say "the west end,"--you mean, the west end of the south side, or the west side? mr. craig. the west end of the south side. mr. belin. of the sixth floor? mr. craig. right. mr. belin. did he point out the window to you? mr. craig. yes. mr. belin. from the west corner, where would this window have been? right next to the west corner or two or three windows away, or what? mr. craig. it was the--uh--the second window from the corner. they were walking, you know, back and forth. mr. belin. he said that the two men were walking back and forth? mr. craig. yes. mr. belin. now, when you talk about second window, this building is located near you, is it not? mr. craig. yes. mr. belin. this is the texas school book depository building? mr. craig. yes. mr. belin. each window was sort of a pair of windows. and, on the south side, there probably are around seven pairs of windows. mr. craig. uh-huh. mr. belin. would this have been--when you say "the second window from the west end"--by that do you mean it was the first pair of windows but the easternmost one of that pair, or do you mean it was in the second pair of windows from the west end--or don't you remember? mr. craig. no; i don't remember that now. mr. belin. all right. did he say anything else about what he had seen with this man with the rifle? mr. craig. yeah; he said he looked back a few minutes later and--uh--the other man was gone, and there was just one man--the man with the rifle. mr. belin. he said he looked back again and just the man with the rifle was there? mr. craig. right. mr. belin. did he say how long or when the last time was that he saw the man with the rifle? mr. craig. i believe this second time he looked was the--uh--the last time he looked up there. mr. belin. and about how long was that before the shots were fired? mr. craig. well, he said he first seen him--saw the two men about minutes before the motorcade arrived. mr. belin. uh-huh. mr. craig. and he didn't say how long after that he looked back up there to just see the one man. he just said--uh--a few minutes later he looked back up. mr. belin. a few minutes later, he looked back up and he saw one man with the rifle? mr. craig. just the one man. mr. belin. did he say what the one man was doing with the rifle? mr. craig. he said he was holding it down to his side and just looking out the window. mr. belin. did he say how far the man was from the window? mr. craig. no; huh-uh. mr. belin. did he say in what direction the man was looking out the window? mr. craig. he was looking out in a southerly direction. straight ahead. you know, straight out. mr. belin. when he said the man was holding it at his side, would this be--did he say it was, in military terminology, in any kind of a position to hold a weapon? mr. craig. no; this i don't go into with him. i turned him over to officer lewis for interrogation. mr. belin. would this be deputy sheriff lemmy lewis--(spelling) l-e-m-m-y l-e-w-i-s? mr. craig. yes. mr. belin. he is a criminal investigator of the dallas sheriff's office? mr. craig. right. mr. belin. and then you left this young couple? mr. craig. right. mr. belin. now, about how long would this have been after the shooting that you left them with deputy sheriff lewis? mr. craig. well, i didn't talk with them long. i talked with them--all the time that he told me what he saw and the time that i turned him over to officer lewis, was probably--uh-- minutes-- or minutes. mr. belin. uh-huh. mr. craig. because--uh--i took him immediately up there to him when he told me what he'd seen. mr. belin. by this time, had anyone said the shots might have come from that school book depository building--do you know? mr. craig. no. i don't--uh--i don't recall that. i don't believe so. mr. belin. at this time, do you know whether or not they had sealed off in any way the entrance or the building--the school book depository building--or not? mr. craig. no; no. i didn't notice that. mr. belin. you didn't notice that? mr. craig. no. mr. belin. all right. now, about how many minutes after the assassination or shooting was it that you turned this couple over to sheriff lemmy lewis? mr. craig. oh, it was about--well, i guess, minutes-- , minutes. something like that. mr. belin. ten or minutes after the shooting? mr. craig. right. mr. belin. then, what did you do? mr. craig. well, i looked around for a little bit, you know, just observing the people and things, and officer lewis turned them over to someone else, as i recall, and sent them to the sheriff's office--to mr. decker's office. and then it was either lemmy lewis or buddy walthers--(spelling) w-a-l-t-h-e-r-s, one of our other criminal investigators, said that one of the bullets had ricocheted off the south curb of elm street. so, officer lewis and i crossed--walked down the hill and crossed elm street to look for the place where the bullet might have hit. mr. belin. did he say why he believed one of the bullets ricocheted off the south curb of elm? mr. craig. no; he just said that someone said that one of them had. so, we checked it. mr. belin. so, you searched the south curb of elm? mr. craig. right. mr. belin. did you find anything there to indicate the ricocheted bullet? mr. craig. no; we didn't find anything at that time. now, as we were searching, we had just got over across the street, when i heard someone whistle. mr. belin. now, about how many minutes was this after the time that you had turned that young couple over to lemmy lewis that you heard this whistle? mr. craig. fourteen or minutes. mr. belin. fourteen or minutes? mr. craig. yes. mr. belin. was this, you mean, after the shooting? mr. craig. after the--from the time i heard the first shot. mr. belin. all right. you heard someone whistle? mr. craig. yes. so i turned and--uh--saw a man start to run down the hill on the north side of elm street, running down toward elm street. mr. belin. and, about where was he with relation to the school book depository building? mr. craig. uh--directly across that little side street that runs in front of it. he was on the south side of it. mr. belin. and he was on the south side of what would be an extension of elm street, if elm street didn't curve down into the underpass? mr. craig. right; right. mr. belin. and where was he with relation to the west side of the school book depository building? mr. craig. right by the--uh--well, actually, directly in line with the west corner--the southwest corner. mr. belin. he was directly in line with the southwest corner of the building? mr. craig. yes. mr. belin. and he was on the south curve of that street that runs right in front of the building there? mr. craig. yes. mr. belin. and he started to run toward elm street as it curves under the underpass? mr. craig. yes; directly down the grassy portion of the park. mr. belin. all right. and then what did you see happen? mr. craig. i saw a light-colored station wagon, driving real slow, coming west on elm street from houston. uh--actually, it was nearly in line with him. and the driver was leaning to his right looking up the hill at the man running down. mr. belin. uh-huh. mr. craig. and the station wagon stopped almost directly across from me. and--uh--the man continued down the hill and got in the station wagon. and i attempted to cross the street. i wanted to talk to both of them. but the--uh--traffic was so heavy i couldn't get across the street. and--uh--they were gone before i could---- mr. belin. where did the station wagon head? mr. craig. west on elm street. mr. belin. under the triple underpass? mr. craig. yes. mr. belin. could you describe the man that you saw running down toward the station wagon? mr. craig. oh, he was a white male in his twenties, five nine, five eight, something like that; about to ; had kind of medium brown sandy hair--you know, it was like it'd been blown--you know, he'd been in the wind or something--it was all wild-looking; had on--uh--blue trousers---- mr. belin. what shade of blue? dark blue, medium or light? mr. craig. no; medium, probably; i'd say medium. and, a--uh--light tan shirt, as i remember it. mr. belin. anything else about him? mr. craig. no; nothing except that he looked like he was in an awful hurry. mr. belin. what about the man who was driving the car? mr. craig. now, he struck me, at first, as being a colored male. he was very dark complected, had real dark short hair, and was wearing a thin white-looking jacket--uh, it looked like the short windbreaker type, you know, because it was real thin and had the collar that came out over the shoulder (indicating with hands) like that--just a short jacket. mr. belin. you say that he first struck you that way. do you now think that he was a negro? mr. craig. well, i don't--i didn't get a real good look at him. but my first glance at him--i was more interested in the man coming down the hill--but my first glance at him, he struck me as a negro. mr. belin. is that what your opinion is today? mr. craig. well, i--i couldn't say, because i didn't get a good enough look at him. mr. belin. what kind and what color station wagon was it? mr. craig. it was light colored--almost--uh--it looked white to me. mr. belin. what model or make was it? mr. craig. i thought it was a nash. mr. belin. why would you think it was a nash? mr. craig. because it had a built-in luggage rack on the top. and--uh--at the time, this was the only type car i could fit with that type luggage rack. mr. belin. a nash rambler--is that what you're referring to? mr. craig. yes; with a rack on the the back portion of the car, you know. mr. belin. did it have a texas license plate, or not? mr. craig. it had the same color. i couldn't see the--uh--name with the numbers on it. i could just barely make them out. they were at an angle where i couldn't make the numbers of the--uh--any of the writing on it. but--uh--i'm sure it was a texas plate. mr. belin. anything else about this incident that you can recall? mr. craig. no; not that---- mr. belin. all right. then what did you do? mr. craig. well, then--uh, i went back up to the front of the school book depository--rather, i went up to it and noticed that it was sealed off. there was an officer standing guard in it with a shotgun in the doorway; several officers crowded around in front of it. mr. belin. how long would this have been after the shots were fired? mr. craig. i'd say nearly minutes. mr. belin. all right. mr. craig. and they were calling for hand lights to search the attic of the building. at that time--uh--they thought the man was still in the building. so, they were calling for hand lights to search the building. so, i went back across to the sheriff's office and got some hand lights and took them back over to them. then, i went up on the sixth floor. mr. belin. why did you go up on the sixth floor? mr. craig. well, someone said that's where the shots came from. one of the city officers, if i'm not mistaken. mr. belin. all right. mr. craig. so, we went to the sixth floor where--uh--some empty cartridges were found. mr. belin. did you see the empty cartridges when they were found? mr. craig. i didn't see them when they were found. i saw them laying on the floor. mr. belin. about how soon after they were found did you see them laying on the floor? mr. craig. oh, a couple of minutes. i went right on over there. i was at the far north end of the building. the cartridges were on the southeast corner. mr. belin. well, how did you know they had been found there? did someone yell--or what? mr. craig. yes; someone yelled across the room that "here's the shells." mr. belin. do you remember who that was? mr. craig. no; i couldn't recognize the voice. mr. belin. all right. then, what did you do? mr. craig. i went over there and--uh--didn't get too close because the shells were laying on the ground and there was--uh--oh, a sack and a bunch of things laying over there. so, you know, not to bother the area, i just went back across. mr. belin. now, you say, there was a sack laying there? mr. craig. yes; i believe it was laying on top of a box, if i'm not mistaken. mr. belin. how big a sack was that? mr. craig. it was a paper bag (indicating with hands)--a small paper bag. mr. belin. well, the kind of paper bag that you carry your lunch in? mr. craig. yeah,--uh-huh. mr. belin. was it more than a foot long? mr. craig. i don't know. i think it was rolled up kind of. mr. belin. you think it was rolled up? mr. craig. yeah; you know, kind of crushed up. mr. belin. was there any long sack laying in the floor there that you remember seeing, or not? mr. craig. no; i don't remember seeing any. mr. belin. do you remember seeing any thing there other than the shells? mr. craig. no; not--uh--not anything that caught my eye. mr. belin. where do you remember seeing the shells? mr. craig. they were laying on the--uh--well, as you're facing the window---- mr. belin. as you are facing the window and you're looking south? mr. craig. the southeast corner window and you're looking south, the shells would be on your right and back away from the window, as i recall, about a foot. mr. belin. do you recall any of the shells right up against the wall at all--or, don't you recall? mr. craig. no; i don't; i didn't look that close. mr. belin. how many shells did you see there? mr. craig. i saw three. mr. belin. did anyone move any boxes in order to get in there--do you know? mr. craig. now, that, i don't know? mr. belin. do you know if anyone moved any boxes in the window? mr. craig. that i don't know either. mr. belin. did you look very closely at the area where the shells were found? mr. craig. uh--no, because the identification men hadn't arrived, and we didn't want to stir up anything. mr. belin. who was there that you remember? mr. craig. oh, officer mooney with our department--luke mooney; officer boone--eugene boone, with our department; myself; and some city officers that i didn't know. those are the only that i remember. you know, there were several other people around but i didn't know them. mr. belin. all right. then what did you do after that? mr. craig. they wanted to search the building for the weapon, so i went to the--i went to the northeast corner of the building and began to search west. mr. belin. uh-huh. mr. craig. uh--everybody else took a different spot. and as i got nearly to the west end of the building, officer boone--eugene boone with the sheriff's office--hollered that here was the rifle. mr. belin. how far were you from officer boone when he hollered? mr. craig. about -foot. mr. belin. what did you do then? mr. craig. i went over to the--uh--cluster of boxes where he was standing and looked down between the boxes and saw the rifle lying on the floor. mr. belin. when you say "between the cluster of boxes," could you describe which way the boxes were? mr. craig. there was a row going east to west on the north side of the weapon, and a box going east to west on the south side of the weapon, and--uh--if i remember, uh--as you'd look down, you had to look kinda back under the north stack of boxes to see the rifle. it was pushed kinda under--uh--or up tight against 'em--you know, where it would be hard to see. and, of course, both ends of the rows were closed off where you couldn't see through 'em. you had to get up and look in 'em. mr. belin. you are gesturing with your hand there--would you say that the boxes, then, as you gestured, were in the shape of what i would call a rectangular "o", so to speak? mr. craig. yes, yes, uh-huh. mr. belin. and about how high were the walls of this enclosure, so to speak? mr. craig. well, it--it was different heights. now, the part where i looked in particularly was about--uh--oh, was about -foot. mr. belin. all right. and you gestured there in such a way that you had to lean over and look straight down? would that be a fair statement of your gestures? mr. craig. yes; yes. you had to lean over the boxes and look down. mr. belin. all right. then what happened? after you found this, did people come over--or what? mr. craig. yes; several other people came over. mr. belin. do you remember about what time this was? mr. craig. no; i had no idea then how long it had been. mr. belin. all right. do you remember who else came over? mr. craig. oh, officer mooney and--uh--several of the city officers; will fritz came over--capt. will fritz, with the city of dallas; some of his investigators, i didn't know them; and a criminal identification man, i believe, from the city of dallas, then came over there to take pictures of the weapon. mr. belin. the weapon was moved by the time the pictures were taken? mr. craig. no; no. the pictures were taken as the weapon was found lying there. mr. belin. did you see the pictures taken of the shells? mr. craig. no. mr. belin. you don't know whether or not anything was moved in that window before this? mr. craig. no; no. mr. belin. all right. anything else happen up to that time that you haven't related here that you feel might be important? mr. craig. no. uh--i'm thinking it was about this time--uh--that we got the news there had been a city officer shot over in oak cliff. mr. belin. and then what happened? mr. craig. well, there was just--uh--of course, everybody stayed there, you know, and sort of mingled around and--uh--i then went back downstairs after the weapon was picked up. the identification man from the city of dallas then, after he took his pictures, picked the weapon up and handed it to will fritz. and i then went back downstairs and over to the sheriff's office. mr. belin. all right. at this time, do you know, did any person say that any employee in the school building was missing up until the time you left? mr. craig. no; i don't recall anybody saying anything to that effect. mr. belin. had any description gone out for anyone that you know of with regard to the shooting? mr. craig. i think--uh--no description of the suspect in the shooting of the officer hadn't went out at this time, but---- mr. belin. you don't know of any other that went out at that time? mr. craig. no; no. mr. belin. all right. then you went back over to the dallas sheriff's office? mr. craig. yes. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. craig. well, i think i gave a statement to rosemary allen over there, as did all the officers, as to what they were doing at the time, you know. mr. belin. uh-huh. mr. craig. and--uh--then i kept thinking about this man that had run down the hill and got in this car, so--uh--it was about, oh, i don't recall exactly the time, nearly or something like that, or after, when--uh--the city had apprehended a suspect in the city officer's shooting. and--uh--information was floating around that they were trying to connect him with the assassination of the president--as the assassin. so--uh, in the meantime, i kept thinking about this subject that had run and got in the car. so, i called captain fritz' office and talked to one of his officers and--uh--told him what i had saw and give him a description of the man, asked him how it fit the man they had picked up as a suspect. and--uh--it was then they asked me to come up and look at him at captain fritz' office. mr. belin. all right. then what did you do? mr. craig. i drove up to fritz' office about, oh, after --about : or something like that--and--uh--talked to captain fritz and told him what i had saw. and he took me in his office--i believe it was his office--it was a little office, and had the suspect setting in a chair behind a desk--beside the desk. and another gentleman, i didn't know him, he was sitting in another chair to my left as i walked in the office. and captain fritz asked me was this the man i saw--and i said, "yes," it was. mr. belin. all right. will you describe the man you saw in captain fritz' office? mr. craig. oh, he was sitting down but--uh--he had the same medium brown hair; it was still--well, it was kinda wild looking; he was slender, and--uh--what i could tell of him sitting there, he was--uh--short. by that, i mean not--myself, i'm five eleven--he was shorter than i was. and--uh--fairly light build. mr. belin. could you see his trousers? mr. craig. no; i couldn't see his trousers at all. mr. belin. what about his shirt? mr. craig. i believe, as close as i can remember, a t-shirt--a white t-shirt. mr. belin. all right. but you didn't see him in a lineup? you just saw him sitting there? mr. craig. no; he was sitting there by himself in a chair--off to one side. mr. belin. all right. then, what did captain fritz say and what did you say and what did the suspect say? mr. craig. captain fritz then asked him about the--uh--he said, "what about this station wagon?" and the suspect interrupted him and said, "that station wagon belongs to mrs. paine"--i believe is what he said. "don't try to tie her into this. she had nothing to do with it." and--uh--captain fritz then told him, as close as i can remember, that, "all we're trying to do is find out what happened, and this man saw you leave from the scene." and the suspect again interrupted captain fritz and said, "i told you people i did." and--uh--yeah--then, he said--then he continued and he said, "everybody will know who i am now." and he was leaning over the desk. at this time, he had risen partially out of the chair and leaning over the desk, looking directly at captain fritz. mr. belin. what was he wearing--or could you see the color of his trousers as he leaned over the desk? mr. craig. no; because he never--he just leaned up, you know, sort of forward--not actually up, just out of his chair like that (indicating) forward. mr. belin. then, did you say anything more? mr. craig. no; i then left. mr. belin. well, in other words, the only thing you ever said was, "this was the man,"--or words to that effect? mr. craig. yes. mr. belin. did captain fritz say anything more. mr. craig. no; i don't believe--not while i was there. mr. belin. did the suspect say anything more? mr. craig. not that i recall. mr. belin. did you say anything about that it was a rambler station wagon there? mr. craig. in the presence of the suspect? mr. belin. yes. mr. craig. no. mr. belin. you don't know whether captain fritz said anything to the suspect about this incident before you came, do you? mr. craig. no; i don't. mr. belin. is there anything else that you can think of involving this interrogation at which you were present? mr. craig. no. nothing else was said after that point. i then left and give my name to the--uh--secret service agent and the fbi agent that was outside the office. mr. belin. anything else in connection with the assassination that you think might be important that we haven't discussed here? mr. craig. no; except--uh--except for the fact that it came out later that mrs. paine does own a station wagon and--uh--it has a luggage rack on top. and this came out, of course, later, after i got back to the office. i didn't know about this. buddy walthers brought it up. i believe they went by the house and the car was parked in the driveway. mr. belin. anything else you can think of? mr. craig. no. that's all. i forgot about it and went back to work. mr. belin. now, prior to the time we had your deposition taken, we chatted for a few minutes about some of these things--is that correct? mr. craig. yes. mr. belin. for instance, we talked about your conversation with this young couple--this arnold rowland and his wife? mr. craig. yes. mr. belin. is there anything that we said before the deposition was taken that we haven't recorded here? mr. craig. i don't believe so. mr. belin. is there anything that i said or you said in our conversation that is different from anything that was recorded here--to the best of your recollection? mr. craig. no; except you asked me before, i believe, did i talk to any of the railroad employees. mr. belin. that's right. mr. craig. and i said, "no"--which i did not. mr. belin. anything else? mr. craig. (pausing before reply.) no--nothing that i recall. mr. belin. in our conversation, did you just relate to me what your story was before we sat down to take the deposition? mr. craig. yes. mr. belin. will you agree to follow or to waive signing of the deposition and leave it in the court reporter's hands--or do you want to sign it? mr. craig. it makes no difference to me. mr. belin. by the way, you had notice of this, did you not, of this taking of this deposition? mr. craig. yes. i have the letter right here in my pocket. mr. belin. all right. anything else you can think of, sir? mr. craig. no. mr. belin. well, we want to thank you for taking your time to come down here and we appreciate your cooperation. we would appreciate your, also, thanking sheriff decker for us, if you would, when you get back there. mr. craig. okay. mr. belin. thank you very much. one other thing before you go, mr. craig. we might have covered this before, but i want to doublecheck it. when you talked to mr. rowland about what he saw in the window, did he say whether or not two men he saw were white or colored? mr. craig. yes; i determined that right away. i asked him whether they were white or colored and he said white. mr. belin. what else did he tell you about them? did he tell you how much of them he saw? mr. craig. yes. he said they--uh--walked back and forth in front of the windows there--uh--several minutes. you know, not a long time but , , minutes. he did state that one of them had a rifle with a scope on it. mr. belin. did he give you the color of the hair or the complexion or anything like that? mr. craig. no--no; this he couldn't give. mr. belin. could he give you the type of clothing they were wearing? mr. craig. if i recall, he was vague on one--he thought it was khakis, but the other man he wasn't sure. mr. belin. did he tell you anything else about these people? mr. craig. yes; he said he looked up a few minutes later and--uh--there was only one man up there then. mr. belin. did he ever tell you anything about seeing any other people in any other windows? mr. craig. yes; he said there were people in other windows looking over the ledges--you know, leaning up against the outside of the windows, looking out. mr. belin. did he tell you whether any of these other people were on the sixth floor? mr. craig. no; these two men were the only ones he saw on that particular floor. mr. belin. did he tell you that was the sixth floor he saw them on? mr. craig. yes. he said the second to the top floor--the next floor down; which would be the sixth floor. mr. belin. did he tell you about ever seeing anyone else on the sixth floor--or did he say that he didn't see anyone else on the sixth floor? or don't you remember? mr. craig. just the two men. that's all he saw on that particular floor. mr. belin. did you specifically ask him if he saw anyone else on that floor, or did he say that he did not? mr. craig. no; i asked him and he said---- mr. belin. well, what was your statement to him and what was his to you? mr. craig. i asked him was there anybody else on the floor with these two men. and he said, "no, just the two of them." mr. belin. did he say that he saw these two men together first? mr. craig. yes. mr. belin. and then he just saw one, as i understand it? mr. craig. a few minutes later, he looked back up there and saw just the man with the rifle. mr. belin. i believe he said earlier that he saw these men around minutes before the motorcade arrived? and then a few minutes later, you say that he told you he saw only one man? mr. craig. right. mr. belin. did he then tell you that he saw no men--or what did he say about what he saw after that? mr. craig. well, then, i took him to officer lewis and turned him over to lemmy lewis. mr. belin. anything else you can think of about that conversation? mr. craig. no; there was not--i don't think there was anything else discussed except for the fact that he told me he thought--he said he thought he was a secret service agent--and that's why he didn't report it. mr. belin. all right. now, if you would just wait here one more minute, mr. craig, mr. ball stepped in and he's going down to pick up some clothing. and we'd like to have you take a look at this clothing and see if this looks familiar to any of the clothing that you saw on the man running toward the rambler. if you'll just wait a minute here please sir. (mr. ball returns to deposition room with box of clothing.) mr. belin. mr. craig, i hand you exhibit no. . have you ever seen a shirt like this before? does this look familiar to the shirt that the suspect might have been wearing when you saw him, or this man running toward the station wagon? mr. craig. it's the same type of shirt. mr. belin. i believe you used the phrase, "light shirt". would exhibit be darker than the shirt that he was wearing? mr. craig. uh--it looks darker in here--yes, uh-huh. mr. belin. was this man running towards the station wagon wearing a jacket? mr. craig. no; i don't believe he was. mr. belin. i hand you exhibit no. . did the trousers that this man running toward the station wagon had on--were they this color--lighter, darker, or a different kind of trousers--or what? mr. craig. no. they were--uh--they were work trousers like those; but they looked blue to me. mr. belin. and this exhibit looks kind of gray? mr. craig. yes. mr. belin. what about exhibit ? mr. craig. well, those are more the color. mr. belin. but they still looked different from exhibit , too? mr. craig. yes. mr. belin. have you discussed with sheriff decker the fact that when oswald was picked up they found a bus transfer in his pocket? mr. craig. no; i knew--uh--nothing about a bus transfer. mr. belin. do you feel, in your own mind, that the man you saw at captain fritz's office was the same man that you saw running towards the station wagon? mr. craig. yes; i feel like it was. mr. belin. do you feel that you might have been influenced by the fact that you knew he was the suspect--subconsciously, or do you---- mr. craig. well, it's--it's possible, but i still feel strongly that it was the same person. mr. belin. okay. that's it. thank you. testimony of george w. rackley, sr. the testimony of george w. rackley, sr., was taken at a.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. david w. belin, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. belin. mr. rackley, do you want to stand and raise your right hand and be sworn, please. do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy, is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. rackley. i do. mr. belin. you can be seated. your name is george w. rackley, sr? mr. rackley. yes, sir. mr. belin. where do you live, mr. rackley? mr. rackley. i live at ferris. mr. belin. texas? mr. rackley. ferris, tex. mr. belin. is that a suburb of dallas? mr. rackley. yes, sir. mr. belin. were you raised in texas? mr. rackley. yes, sir. mr. belin. born in texas? mr. rackley. no; i was born in alabama. mr. belin. raised in texas? go to school here in texas? mr. rackley. yes, sir. mr. belin. how far did you get through school? mr. rackley. fifth. mr. belin. fifth grade? mr. rackley. yes, sir. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. rackley. well, i went to farming. mr. belin. you went to farming? mr. rackley. yes. mr. belin. well, i am from iowa. we do a lot of farming up there. mr. rackley. that is what i do here. mr. belin. all right, then what did you do? mr. rackley. well, at the present i am working for the coordinated railroad co. mr. belin. for the what? mr. rackley. for the katy. it is a katy railroad project, but it is a coordinated deal. mr. belin. what are you doing? mr. rackley. i unload trailers. mr. belin. you unload trailers? mr. rackley. yes, sir. mr. belin. let me backtrack. how old are you? mr. rackley. i am . mr. belin. you said you quit school in the fifth grade and went to farming. how long did you farm? mr. rackley. i farmed up to years ago. mr. belin. you farmed up to years ago? mr. rackley. yes, sir. mr. belin. what kind of farming? mr. rackley. well, i raised cotton and corn. mr. belin. then years ago where did you go to work? mr. rackley. i went to work here. well, i have been working off in spare times for about years. mr. belin. for the same place? mr. rackley. yes; same place. mr. belin. is that here in dallas? mr. rackley. that is here in dallas. mr. belin. where in dallas is it? mr. rackley. it is on ross and market street, about two blocks from the courthouse. mr. belin. now where is it with relation to the corner of elm and houston? mr. rackley. well, it is on up on ross. two blocks north is where our place is. mr. belin. your place is two blocks north of the corner of elm and houston? mr. rackley. yes, sir. mr. belin. you work indoors or outdoors? mr. rackley. just all over town. mr. belin. just all over town? mr. rackley. yes, sir. mr. belin. where were you working around the noon hour of friday, november , ? mr. rackley. well, i was there at the office. mr. belin. were you inside or outside? mr. rackley. our office is just a little small place. well, just outside, you might say, of it. mr. belin. did you see the president's motorcade at all on that day? mr. rackley. no, sir; i didn't. mr. belin. were you standing with anyone there? mr. rackley. yes, sir. mr. belin. with whom? mr. rackley. with james romack. i and him had walked out. mr. belin. you had walked out? mr. rackley. i heard the siren; the parade was coming. mr. belin. you heard sirens? mr. rackley. yes, sir. and i had walked out in front of the place to where i could get a better view, as a fellow says. mr. belin. where were you standing? mr. rackley. well, i had walked out in the truck lot. mr. belin. in the truck lot? mr. rackley. yes. mr. belin. and was that---- mr. rackley. you might say would have been in the middle of the street. mr. belin. would that have been in the middle of houston street? mr. rackley. yes. mr. belin. in what direction were you facing? mr. rackley. facing south. mr. belin. all right, did you see the motorcade at all? mr. rackley. no. mr. belin. what did you see? mr. rackley. i didn't practically see anything. mr. belin. did you hear any sounds at all? mr. rackley. yes. heard the sounds of the parade. mr. belin. did you hear the sounds that sounded like firecrackers or shots at all? mr. rackley. no, sir. mr. belin. didn't hear that? mr. rackley. no. mr. belin. about how far would you have been from the northeast corner of the texas school book depository when you were standing there? mr. rackley. i would say right at a block. mr. belin. about a block. do you have any idea about how many feet that is? mr. rackley. no, sir; i don't. mr. belin. were you just standing there, or were you walking? mr. rackley. i was just standing there. mr. belin. did you see anything happen at all there? mr. rackley. no, sir. mr. belin. did you see anyone in the parade? mr. rackley. the only thing--i told the guy, he was down there, the only thing that i saw that looked suspicious to me, there was something like a hundred pigeons flew up like you shot into them, and i noticed that, but i never heard no shots. mr. belin. where did you see them fly from? mr. rackley. from over the top of the building. mr. belin. which building? the school book depository or over on the other side? mr. rackley. the trinity building. mr. belin. which building did they fly off of? mr. rackley. i wasn't looking. i just seen they all flew together. mr. belin. did it look like they were flying up from both buildings? mr. rackley. both buildings. mr. belin. you don't know about when this took place? mr. rackley. no, sir; i don't. mr. belin. about what time was it that you were looking that way, do you remember, offhand? mr. rackley. no; but it was just at the time that the parade was nearing there, i know that. mr. belin. had any of the parade already gone by the corner of elm and houston? mr. rackley. i couldn't say. mr. belin. so you don't know whether it did or didn't? mr. rackley. no. mr. belin. but would you say it was about that time that the motorcade was to be going by there? mr. rackley. it was between and . mr. belin. it was between and ? mr. rackley. yes. mr. belin. o'clock? mr. rackley. yes. mr. belin. what time did you--was this before or after you had lunch? mr. rackley. well, i just eat just any time i get a chance. mr. belin. do you know accurately what time it was? mr. rackley. no, sir; i don't. mr. belin. could it have been as late as : ? mr. rackley. no. mr. belin. it was before : ? mr. rackley. yes. mr. belin. before ? mr. rackley. yes. mr. belin. sometime between and ? mr. rackley. well, it was at the time that, really, that they had shot him, because i was there when the policemen covered the place. mr. belin. you were there when the policemen covered the place? mr. rackley. yes. mr. belin. with relation to the time that the policemen covered the place, how many minutes before that did you see the birds fly up? mr. rackley. i saw the pigeons there or minutes before that. mr. belin. now after you saw the pigeons, you saw the police covering the place? mr. rackley. yes, sir. mr. belin. within or minutes after you saw the pigeons? mr. rackley. yes, sir. mr. belin. did you see any people coming out the back door at all? mr. rackley. no. mr. belin. could you see the back door of the texas school book depository? mr. rackley. yes. mr. belin. that was at the dock they have back there? mr. rackley. yes, sir. mr. belin. were you looking towards that direction? mr. rackley. yes, sir. mr. belin. about how long did you keep your eyes fixed over there? mr. rackley. oh, i would say minutes anyhow. probably . i was looking up that way at all times. mr. belin. five or minutes, you figure? mr. rackley. yes. mr. belin. did you see any people leave the texas school book depository by way of the rear exit? mr. rackley. no, sir. mr. belin. did you see any people running north on houston street? mr. rackley. no, sir. mr. belin. did you tell your company supervisor that there had been some shooting? mr. rackley. no; not right then. mr. belin. later did you tell them? mr. rackley. yes; i imagine. mr. belin. you said you stayed there or minutes looking to the south? mr. rackley. yes. mr. belin. what did you do after that? mr. rackley. well, when the policemen began to crowd around and they all over the place, well then i told him i thought that something had happened over there. i wasn't expecting anything like that until i just, of course, seen the policemen all out there running back. they came out the back door and the side door with guns. mr. belin. who did you tell that to that you thought something happened there? mr. rackley. gail george. mr. belin. is that your foreman? mr. rackley. yes. mr. belin. after you said you kept your eyes on this looking south for or minutes, what did you do after that? mr. rackley. well, i went back to the office. mr. belin. then what did you do after that? mr. rackley. well, i don't remember. mr. belin. during this period of or minutes, did you walk close to the building at all, or just stand there? mr. rackley. just stood out there. mr. belin. what about romack? did he stand with you, or did he walk closer? mr. rackley. he walked closer. mr. belin. anything else you can think of, whether i have asked it or not, that in any way might be relevant to this inquiry? mr. rackley. it wasn't a thing that i knew. i didn't really know or expect what was taking place. mr. belin. other than the pigeons? mr. rackley. yes. mr. belin. sir, we thank you for your cooperation. you have a right, if you want, to come back down and read your testimony and sign it, or you can just waive doing that and have the court reporter send it directly to us without your taking another trip down here. you can do it either way. mr. rackley. i can sign it now. mr. belin. you can either waive signing it or else you can come down again and read it and sign it. by waiving, i mean you just let it go, assuming that the court reporter will accurately transcribe it, or you have a right to come in and read it. mr. rackley. i will just let it go. mr. belin. you waive signing it? mr. rackley. yes. mr. belin. that is all for now. testimony of james elbert romack the testimony of james elbert romack was taken at : a.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. david w. belin, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. belin. you want to stand and raise your right hand. do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. romack. i do. mr. belin. my name is david belin. i am actually a practicing attorney from des moines, iowa. i have been with the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy for several months here, and we asked you to come down to have your deposition taken. mr. belin. would you please state your name for the record? mr. romack. james elbert romack. mr. belin. r-o-m-a-c-k? mr. romack. right. mr. belin. where do you live, mr. romack? mr. romack. benbrook drive, dallas, tex. mr. belin. how old a man are you? mr. romack. i am years of age. mr. belin. were you born in texas? mr. romack. yes, sir. mr. belin. go to school here? mr. romack. i went to school in texas, yes, sir. mr. belin. how far did you get through school? mr. romack. i got a couple of years of college. mr. belin. a couple of years of college? mr. romack. yes. mr. belin. what college? mr. romack. east texas state teachers college and technological college. mr. belin. did you go to college right after high school? mr. romack. it was right after the war. mr. belin. you went right after the war? mr. romack. yes. mr. belin. did you go---- mr. romack. i take it back, i was going to tech when the war broke out, and went to east texas state after the war. mr. belin. when the war broke out, what did you do? mr. romack. i went into the navy. mr. belin. what did you do in the navy? mr. romack. i was in the amphibious, on the aleutian islands, and took boot training in san diego. i went to the aleutian islands and came back and went to pearl harbor and stayed out there for months, and boarded an lst and went through the campaigns of the philippines and okinawa and japan and then returned back home. mr. belin. when did you get back to the states? mr. romack. march . mr. belin. i was stationed in japan right after the last war. where were you stationed? mr. romack. i was on this lst in pearl harbor. mr. belin. were you in japan after the war? mr. romack. yes, i was there during the time the treaty was signed. we were in the, i forget the name, we were riding typhoons. we rode out eight of them, and our ship came back without the two side doors. all we had was the big ramp. mr. belin. that must have been quite a voyage back? mr. romack. they were taking water in the port and bailing it over in the back. mr. belin. when you got back to the states, what did you do? mr. romack. went to st. louis and bought me an automobile, and just i was a boy. i was the boy about months, i would say. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. romack. then i entered school, east texas state teachers college. mr. belin. you went there about a year? mr. romack. approximately a year, i would say, yes, sir. mr. belin. then what did you do after that? mr. romack. i got married once along the route, and i was married about days. then i came to dallas in . i guess it was , or , i forget just when i did come to dallas. it was along in there. mr. belin. and you have been in dallas ever since? mr. romack. yes, sir. mr. belin. by the way, were you honorably discharged? mr. romack. yes; i surely was. mr. belin. what did you do when you got to dallas? mr. romack. i went to work with a motor freight carrier. they are known as icx today. they were miller & miller motor freight at the time. mr. belin. what did you do for them? mr. romack. drove a truck. mr. belin. how long did you do that? mr. romack. approximately a year. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. romack. went back to east texas, and my home, and piddled around for a short while. then i came back to dallas. and what did i do along in there? in , i went to work for the cotton belt railroad. mr. belin. how long did you stay with them? mr. romack. until april, i believe, of . i know it was in . mr. belin. what did you generally do when you were with the cotton belt? mr. romack. i did all the railroad work during that time. i mean, i have been a billing clerk, and i have been a foreman, and i have been checker, and assistant foreman, warehouse foreman, and i worked out in the yards, and did quite a few jobs. mr. belin. you left them in , and then what did you do? mr. romack. went to work with--a friend wanted me to go to work with him in a service station, conoco service station. mr. belin. how long did you stay there? mr. romack. stayed there a year, approximately. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. romack. then i went to work with strickland transportation co. as a dock foreman. mr. belin. how long were you with them? mr. romack. oh, i would say or months. mr. belin. then what? mr. romack. then i went to work with an air freight concern out here at love field drive, driving a truck, delivering air freight and picking up air freight for, i would say, or months there, maybe. mr. belin. then what? mr. romack. then i hired out with the coordinating transportation co. mr. belin. coordinated transportation co.? mr. romack. right, which that is where i am at today. mr. belin. what have you been doing for them? mr. romack. driving mostly your big van trailer-truck and bobtail trucks and pickup and delivery service. mr. belin. where were you around the noon hour of november , ? mr. romack. i was on lunch period, just piddling around out north by east, i would say, from the texas school book depository building. mr. belin. you were standing around houston street? mr. romack. it would be just about where houston would intersect, but the street was under construction at the time. they didn't have it, which they still don't have it opened up for through traffic. mr. belin. were you standing with anyone? mr. romack. well, lee and mr. rackley, we walked out there together originally to start with. we were kind of piddling around, and i kind of walked off ahead of him. mr. belin. was that george w. rackley you were referring to? mr. romack. yes, sir. mr. belin. is he also known as "pop" rackley? mr. romack. right. mr. belin. you said you started walking away. where did you walk? mr. romack. toward the school book depository building. mr. belin. along what street did you walk? mr. romack. well, it wouldn't be no street at the time. mr. belin. well, if there would be a street? mr. romack. i guess it would be just about, i don't know whether they are going to split ross and houston street up. mr. belin. would you be looking at at houston street? mr. romack. more or less. i would be looking at houston street; yes, sir. mr. belin. all right, and what happened as you were walking? mr. romack. i heard these three rifle shots sound out. mr. belin. did you know they were rifle shots? mr. romack. yes, sir; i did. i go elk hunting in colorado every year in october, and i just came back from this trip, and i am pretty familiar with a rifle shot. mr. belin. how many did you hear? mr. romack. three. mr. belin. where did they sound like they came from? mr. romack. it sounded, i guess, like it came from that building, but it wasn't on my side of the building. mr. belin. did it sound like it was up high or low? mr. romack. i would say they were high. i have never been asked that question, but it did sound like they were running out high, i would say, and the wind was blowing a little bit from the south that day, i can remember. mr. belin. the wind was blowing into your face as you walked, or was it blowing from your back, sir? mr. romack. it was blowing into my face. mr. belin. into your face. how far were you from the school book depository building when you heard the shots? mr. romack. oh, i probably was yards. to yards, i would say. mr. belin. would that be from the nearest corner of the building or from the front of elm street? mr. romack. from the nearest corner of the building. mr. belin. from the northeast corner of the building? mr. romack. right. mr. belin. how close did the shots sound like they came together? mr. romack. oh, they happened pretty fast. i would say maybe or seconds apart. mr. belin. were they equally spaced, or did one sound like it was closer than another one in time? mr. romack. it sounded like to me that they were evenly spaced. they rang out pretty fast. mr. belin. have you ever operated a bolt action rifle? mr. romack. yes, sir. mr. belin. do you own one? mr. romack. yes, sir. mr. belin. did it sound like the shots were faster than it could be operated with a bolt action rifle? mr. romack. no, sir. mr. belin. what kind of rifle do you have now, by the way? mr. romack. i have a--it is a--i can't answer that really. mr. belin. what caliber? mr. romack. it is a - . mr. belin. - rifle? mr. romack. yes, it is. and it is an old world war i mechanism. it is either an enfleld or a springfield. mr. belin. bolt action? mr. romack. yes, sir. mr. belin. you heard those rifle shots, and you think you could shoot your rifle accurately as fast as you heard those shots? mr. romack. i don't, wouldn't think that i would be that good a shot; no, sir; because i shot at an elk four times and i hit him everywhere and missed him one time out of four. mr. belin. how far was it? mr. romack. he was, i would say, to yards away. he was quite a distance. mr. belin. maybe i should have asked the question this way. suppose he was yards away or else yards? mr. romack. i would be more accurate with my shooting, i sure would. mr. belin. if he were, say, from to yards away, or not an elk, a person, do you think you could shoot to yards away accurately as quickly as you heard those rifle sounds? mr. romack. i wouldn't say i could; no, sir. mr. belin. do you think an accurate rifleman could? mr. romack. yes, sir. mr. belin. well, you heard the shots, and then what did you do? mr. romack. well, i knew something was wrong. i mean, i could sense that within my own self. mr. belin. all right. mr. romack. and i looked up and i felt kind of chilly looking down towards the--which i am facing the houston entrance, and i looked down toward where all the people were standing along, the motorcade was passing by, and just immediately after i heard the shots, i saw a policeman running north towards me. he was running to look to see if somebody was running out of the back of this building. mr. belin. what building? mr. romack. texas school book depository building. and he didn't stay but just, oh, he was just there to check and he runs back. well, sensing that something is wrong, i automatically take over watching the building for the man. mr. belin. what part of the building were you watching? mr. romack. the back part. mr. belin. could you see that back dock in the back part? mr. romack. well, i mean, they got it sealed off. i could see as much as anyone could see. mr. belin. could you see--there are some stairs that go up to the back dock, aren't there? mr. romack. right here. mr. belin. you are pointing to a first floor plan of the texas school book depository? mr. romack. yes. mr. belin. did you watch those stairs? mr. romack. yes, sir. mr. belin. how long did you watch them after you saw the policeman leave? mr. romack. well, i watched them all the time until someone arrived, and the only time i did take my back off, turn my back to the building was sam pate with his kbox news, he arrived before any of the police or anyone. mr. belin. is that kbox? mr. romack. yes. mr. belin. is that a radio or television station? mr. romack. it is a radio station. mr. belin. how long did you take your eyes off then? mr. romack. he was driving up and they were having a little high--the city has a piece of wood that they use to stop traffic coming through, and i'd taken that so he could come through, drive his truck. mr. belin. how long did you leave your post? mr. romack. i didn't leave. that was right there, even closer than what we were. but all i did was let that down for him, and then we---- mr. belin. would that have taken less than a minute? mr. romack. yes. mr. belin. less than seconds, do you know? mr. romack. yes. mr. belin. how long did you stay after that watching that back door? mr. romack. well, we were all there watching it then. mr. belin. how long a period of time? mr. romack. pardon? mr. belin. did you see a policeman go up there? mr. romack. i saw policemen up in there. i didn't see anyone come up the back. they came in the front, all--most of them. mr. belin. did you see any employees walk up the back way? mr. romack. there was two other gentlemen which i never said anything about, that taken over. they were fbi or something standing right here at the very entrance, and just stood there. mr. belin. you are pointing again to the back stairway that leads up from the street to the dock on the north side of the building? mr. romack. right. mr. belin. see anyone else? mr. romack. no, sir; other than all the motorcycle officers and squad cars. they started coming in, i would say, in minutes from the time that this happened. they were swarming the building, which naturally i quit watching anything particular. mr. belin. in other words, about minutes after the shots came you quit watching it? would that be accurate, or not? mr. romack. well, i would say somewhere in the neighborhood of minutes, or minutes. that would probably be true. i stayed there, but i wasn't particularly watching. mr. belin. in other words, then as i understand your testimony, you said that from about the time of the shots until about minutes after the shots, you watched the back door of the building? mr. romack. right. mr. belin. what is the fact as to whether or not you saw anyone leave the building? mr. romack. they wasn't anyone left the building. mr. belin. what is the fact as to whether or not you saw anyone enter the building other than a police officer? mr. romack. no one entered while i was standing there. mr. belin. did you see anybody running down the street near you at all? mr. romack. no, sir. mr. belin. where were you standing? how far were you from this stairway going to this houston street dock? mr. romack. well, after this kbox--you are asking prior to before he got there? mr. belin. before kbox got there first? mr. romack. i would say i moved between yards. mr. belin. yards of the northeast corner of the building? mr. romack. yards of the northeast corner of the building. mr. belin. after kbox got there? mr. romack. he got to about, i would say, maybe yards to the building, or . that is where he parked his car. mr. belin. how long did he stay, kbox? mr. romack. oh. i would say or minutes. then i went and called my wife and was telling her the sad news, and then i went back and stayed again. i ended up laying off work. i didn't even work that afternoon. mr. belin. did you ever contact the fbi? mr. romack. yes, sir. mr. belin. when did you do that? mr. romack. it was on a saturday night after i got in from work. mr. belin. what month was it? mr. romack. it was this past month. mr. belin. you mean march? mr. romack. right. mr. belin. what caused you to contact the fbi in march? mr. romack. i was trying to pinpoint the day that i must have come in from work. it was on the weekend that i'd come home, and there was a paper up in the left-hand corner. mr. belin. you mean the newspaper? mr. romack. yes, sir. mr. belin. dallas newspaper? mr. romack. yes. mr. belin. which one, do you know, offhand? mr. romack. herald, the paper that i take. mr. belin. what did you see in the paper? mr. romack. i saw an article that was written by a guy, which i have been concerned about this thing all the way through, the assassination and i got to reading it, and it is a story that just don't jibe with about me sitting there and watching the building. it just kind of upset me to know there is some monkey just hatched up such a story. mr. belin. what is the story that you read that you got concerned about? mr. romack. about a guy seeing a rifle drawn in from the building above him, and he also seen the people as the shots were being fired, and he also seen some character running toward me with an overcoat on which was brown or gray or blue, and he heard shots. mr. belin. let me ask you this. do you remember what page of the paper this was on? mr. romack. it was on the headlines. i don't mean the headlines. it was on the front page in the left corner of the page. mr. belin. now you say something concerned you about the article. was it the fact that he said he saw a rifle there that concerned you? mr. romack. no, sir; the fact that he was running somebody over me, and that is what i was out there doing. that is what i was doing. i was watching. mr. belin. you mean the portion of the article that concerned you was that someone said that someone else was running? mr. romack. towards pacific street. mr. belin. towards pacific street from the direction of the school book depository? mr. romack. that is the way the article read, sir. mr. belin. what did you tell the fbi when you called them? mr. romack. i told them, tried to tell them about the same thing that i am telling you right now today. mr. belin. have i ever mentioned before, by the way, or talked to you before this morning? mr. romack. no, sir. mr. belin. what is the fact as to whether or not as soon as we met, you came in here and we started taking your deposition immediately? mr. romack. right. unless you called me last saturday. i don't remember who called me. mr. belin. well, on saturday, what did someone do, call you and tell you to come down here? mr. romack. yes, sir. mr. belin. did that person talk to you about the facts that we were talking about now? mr. romack. no, sir. mr. belin. it wasn't i, just for the record. i believe it was the secret service that called you, but i am not sure. mr. romack. it was. mr. belin. now, i understand your testimony correctly, what you are stating is that you don't believe anyone ran out of the building towards you, at least within the first minutes after the shots? mr. romack. right. mr. belin. you don't think anyone went out of the building during the first minutes after the shots? mr. romack. that is true. mr. belin. is there anything else, any other information you have that you feel might be helpful to the investigation of the assassination? mr. romack. i can't think of anything, sir. mr. belin. well, we want to thank you very much for taking the time to come down here. we appreciate your cooperation, and certainly your cooperation particularly in volunteering to call the fbi to contact them for this information. mr. romack. well, i felt that--i called an attorney that i know and talked to him about the deal before i called the fbi, and i told him i wasn't doing this for a publicity thing. it was something i just didn't, after reading that article, it kind of upset me, and he said he felt it was my duty to call the fbi and let them know. and that is when i went ahead and made my statement. mr. belin. now, mr. romack, you have the right, if you want, to come back down here after these notes of the court reporter are typed, to read the typewritten transcript and sign it, or you can waive reading it and signing it and just have her send it directly to washington, whatever you want to do. it makes no difference with us. mr. romack. i will waive. mr. belin. you want to waive it then? mr. romack. yes, sir. mr. belin. again we want to thank you very much. mr. romack. you are quite welcome. testimony of lee e. bowers, jr. the testimony of lee e. bowers, jr. was taken at p.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. joseph a. ball, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. ball. will you stand and be sworn, mr. bowers? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give for this commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. bowers. yes, sir. mr. ball. will you state your name, please. mr. bowers. lee e. bowers, jr. mr. ball. and what is your residence address? mr. bowers. maplegrove lane. mr. ball. dallas, tex. mr. bowers. dallas. mr. ball. and would you tell me something about yourself, where you were born, raised, and what has been your business, generally, or occupation? mr. bowers. i was born right here in dallas, and lived here most of my life except when i was in the navy, at the age of to , and i was away years going to hardin simmons university, also, attended southern methodist university years, majoring in religion. i worked for the railroad years and was a self-employed builder, as well as--on the side. and the first of this year when i went to work as business manager for dr. tim green who operates this hospital and convalescent home and rent properties. mr. ball. what railroad did you work for? mr. bowers. worked for the union terminal co. with the participating railroads. mr. ball. and on november , , were you working for the union terminal co.? mr. bowers. yes. mr. ball. what kind of work were you doing for them? mr. bowers. i was tower man in the north tower, union terminal, operating the switches and signals controlling the movement of trains. mr. ball. through railroad yards? mr. bowers. yes. mr. ball. what were your hours of work? mr. bowers. to p.m., monday through friday. mr. ball. now, do you remember what is the height of--above the ground at which you worked in the tower? mr. bowers. it is second story, it is feet, or feet. mr. ball. you worked about feet above the ground? mr. bowers. yes. mr. ball. and the tower was arranged so that you could see out? mr. bowers. yes; it is windows except for posts that--posts on each corner. it is windows on all four sides. mr. ball. where is that located with reference to the corner of elm and houston? mr. bowers. it is west and north of this corner, and as to distances, i really don't know. it is within yards of the back of the school depository building, or less. mr. ball. did you say that it is built on higher ground, the base of the tower on higher ground than around houston and elm? mr. bowers. approximately the same. mr. ball. same? it is higher ground than elm as it recedes down under the triple underpass? mr. bowers. yes, sir; considerably. mr. ball. and the base of your tower is about the same height as the triple underpass, isn't it? mr. bowers. approximately. mr. ball. now, can you tell me why you refer to that as a triple underpass? in our conversation here before you were sworn your description--you described it as a triple underpass. mr. bowers. it is just a local connotation for it since there are three streets that run under it. mr. ball. i see. and how many sets of tracks do you control from your tower? mr. bowers. there are about tracks in the station and freight tracks. mr. ball. that would be tracks that is, the tracks altogether, that pass in front of your tower? mr. bowers. yes; of course where the tracks converge and cross and split off to various railroad yards---- mr. ball. and the tracks are to the north and west of your tower, aren't they? mr. bowers. well, the tracks are west, but they proceed in all directions, i mean, they are both north and south. mr. ball. now, you were on duty on november , , weren't you? mr. bowers. that's correct. mr. ball. close to noon, did you make any observation of the area around between your tower and elm street? mr. bowers. yes; because of the fact that the area had been covered by police for some hours. since approximately o'clock in the morning traffic had been cut off into the area so that anyone moving around could actually be observed. since i had worked there for a number of years i was familiar with most of the people who came in and out of the area. mr. ball. did you notice any cars around there? mr. bowers. yes; there were three cars that came in during the time from around noon until the time of the shooting. mr. ball. came in where? mr. bowers. they came into the vicinity of the tower, which was at the extension of elm street, which runs in front of the school depository, and which there is no way out. it is not a through street to anywhere. mr. ball. there is parking area behind the school depository, between that building and your tower? mr. bowers. two or three railroad tracks and a small amount of parking area for the employees. mr. ball. and the first came along that you noticed about what time of day? mr. bowers. i do not recall the exact time, but i believe this was approximately : , wouldn't be too far off. mr. ball. and the car you noticed, when you noticed the car, where was it? mr. bowers. the car proceeded in front of the school depository down across or tracks and circled the area in front of the tower, and to the west of the tower, and, as if he was searching for a way out, or was checking the area, and then proceeded back through the only way he could, the same outlet he came into. mr. ball. the place where elm dead ends? mr. bowers. that's right. back in front of the school depository was the only way he could get out. and i lost sight of him, i couldn't watch him. mr. ball. what was the description of that car? mr. bowers. the first car was a oldsmobile, blue and white station wagon with out-of-state license. mr. ball. do you know what state? mr. bowers. no; i do not. i would know it, i could identify it, i think, if i looked at a list. mr. ball. and, it had something else, some bumper stickers? mr. bowers. had a bumper sticker, one of which was a goldwater sticker, and the other of which was of some scenic location, i think. mr. ball. and, did you see another car? mr. bowers. yes, some minutes or so after this, at approximately o'clock, to --i guess : would be close to it, little time differential there--but there was another car which was a black ford, with one male in it that seemed to have a mike or telephone or something that gave the appearance of that at least. mr. ball. how could you tell that? mr. bowers. he was holding something up to his mouth with one hand and he was driving with the other, and gave that appearance. he was very close to the tower. i could see him as he proceeded around the area. mr. ball. what kind of license did that have? mr. bowers. had a texas license. mr. ball. what did it do as it came into the area, from what street? mr. bowers. came in from the extension of elm street in front of the school depository. mr. ball. did you see it leave? mr. bowers. yes; after or minutes cruising around the area it departed the same way. he did probe a little further into the area than the first car. mr. ball. did you see another car? mr. bowers. third car, which entered the area, which was some seven or nine minutes before the shooting, i believe was a or chevrolet, four-door impala, white, showed signs of being on the road. it was muddy up to the windows, bore a similar out-of-state license to the first car i observed, occupied also by one white male. mr. ball. what did it do? mr. bowers. he spent a little more time in the area. he tried--he circled the area and probed one spot right at the tower in an attempt to get and was forced to back out some considerable distance, and slowly cruised down back towards the front of the school depository building. mr. ball. then did he leave? mr. bowers. the last i saw of him he was pausing just about in--just above the assassination site. mr. ball. did the car park, or continue on or did you notice? mr. bowers. whether it continued on at that very moment or whether it pulled up only a short distance, i couldn't tell. i was busy. mr. ball. how long was this before the president's car passed there? mr. bowers. this last car? about minutes. mr. ball. were you in a position where you could see the corner of elm and houston from the tower? mr. bowers. no; i could not see the corner of elm and houston. i could see the corner of main and houston as they came down and turned on, then i couldn't see it for about half a block, and after they passed the corner of elm and houston the car came in sight again. mr. ball. you saw the president's car coming out the houston street from main, did you? mr. bowers. yes; i saw that. mr. ball. then you lost sight of it? mr. bowers. right. for a moment. mr. ball. then you saw it again where? mr. bowers. it came in sight after it had turned the corner of elm and houston. mr. ball. did you hear anything? mr. bowers. i heard three shots. one, then a slight pause, then two very close together. also reverberation from the shots. mr. ball. and were you able to form an opinion as to the source of the sound or what direction it came from, i mean? mr. bowers. the sounds came either from up against the school depository building or near the mouth of the triple underpass. mr. ball. were you able to tell which? mr. bowers. no; i could not. mr. ball. well, now, had you had any experience before being in the tower as to sounds coming from those various places? mr. bowers. yes; i had worked this same tower for some or years, and was there during the time they were renovating the school depository building, and had noticed at that time the similarity of sounds occurring in either of those two locations. mr. ball. can you tell me now whether or not it came, the sounds you heard, the three shots came from the direction of the depository building or the triple underpass? mr. bowers. no; i could not. mr. ball. from your experience there, previous experience there in hearing sounds that originated at the texas school book depository building, did you notice that sometimes those sounds seem to come from the triple underpass? is that what you told me a moment ago? mr. bowers. there is a similarity of sound, because there is a reverberation which takes place from either location. mr. ball. had you heard sounds originating near the triple underpass before? mr. bowers. yes; quite often. because trucks backfire and various occurrences. mr. ball. and you had heard noises originating from the texas school depository when they were building there? mr. bowers. they were renovating. i--did carpenter work as well as sandblasted the outside of the building. mr. ball. now, were there any people standing on the high side--high ground between your tower and where elm street goes down under the underpass toward the mouth of the underpass? mr. bowers. directly in line, towards the mouth of the underpass, there were two men. one man, middle-aged, or slightly older, fairly heavy-set, in a white shirt, fairly dark trousers. another younger man, about midtwenties, in either a plaid shirt or plaid coat or jacket. mr. ball. were they standing together or standing separately? mr. bowers. they were standing within or feet of each other, and gave no appearance of being together, as far as i knew. mr. ball. in what direction were they facing? mr. bowers. they were facing and looking up towards main and houston, and following the caravan as it came down. mr. ball. did you see anyone standing on the triple underpass? mr. bowers. on the triple underpass, there were two policemen. one facing each direction, both east and west. there was one railroad employee, a signal man there with the union terminal co., and two welders that worked for the fort worth welding firm, and there was also a laborer's assistant furnished by the railroad to these welders. mr. ball. you saw those before the president came by, you saw those people? mr. bowers. yes; they were there before and after. mr. ball. and were they standing on the triple underpass? mr. bowers. yes; they were standing on top of it facing towards houston street, all except, of course, the one policeman on the west side. mr. ball. did you see any other people up on this high ground? mr. bowers. there were one or two people in the area. not in this same vicinity. one of them was a parking lot attendant that operates a parking lot there. one or two. each had uniforms similar to those custodians at the courthouse. but they were some distance back, just a slight distance back. mr. ball. when you heard the sound, which way were you looking? mr. bowers. at the moment i heard the sound, i was looking directly towards the area--at the moment of the first shot, as close as my recollection serves, the car was out of sight behind this decorative masonry wall in the area. mr. ball. and when you heard the second and third shot, could you see the car? mr. bowers. no; at the moment of the shots, i could--i do not think that it was in sight. it came in sight immediately following the last shot. mr. ball. did you see any activity in this high ground above elm after the shot? mr. bowers. at the time of the shooting there seemed to be some commotion, and immediately following there was a motorcycle policeman who shot nearly all of the way to the top of the incline. mr. ball. on his motorcycle? mr. bowers. yes. mr. ball. did he come by way of elm street? mr. bowers. he was part of the motorcade and had left it for some reason, which i did not know. mr. ball. he came up---- mr. bowers. he came almost to the top and i believe abandoned his motorcycle for a moment and then got on it and proceeded, i don't know. mr. ball. how did he get up? mr. bowers. he just shot up over the curb and up. mr. ball. he didn't come then by way of elm, which dead ends there? mr. bowers. no; he left the motorcade and came up the incline on the motorcycle. mr. ball. was his motorcycle directed toward any particular people? mr. bowers. he came up into this area where there are some trees, and where i had described the two men were in the general vicinity of this. mr. ball. were the two men there at the time? mr. bowers. i--as far as i know, one of them was. the other i could not say. the darker dressed man was too hard to distinguish from the trees. the one in the white shirt, yes; i think he was. mr. ball. when you said there was a commotion, what do you mean by that? what did it look like to you when you were looking at the commotion? mr. bowers. i just am unable to describe rather than it was something out of the ordinary, a sort of milling around, but something occurred in this particular spot which was out of the ordinary, which attracted my eye for some reason, which i could not identify. mr. ball. you couldn't describe it? mr. bowers. nothing that i could pinpoint as having happened that---- mr. ball. afterwards did a good many people come up there on this high ground at the tower? mr. bowers. a large number of people came, more than one direction. one group converged from the corner of elm and houston, and came down the extension of elm and came into the high ground, and another line--another large group went across the triangular area between houston and elm and then across elm and then up the incline. some of them all the way up. many of them did, as well as, of course, between and a hundred policemen within a maximum of minutes. mr. ball. in this area around your tower? mr. bowers. that's right. sealed off the area, and i held off the trains until they could be examined, and there was some transients taken on at least one train. mr. ball. i believe you have talked this over with me before your deposition was taken, haven't we? mr. bowers. yes. mr. ball. is there anything that you told me that i haven't asked you about that you think of? mr. bowers. nothing that i can recall. mr. ball. you have told me all that you know about this, haven't you? mr. bowers. yes; i believe that i have related everything which i have told the city police, and also told to the fbi. mr. ball. and everything you told me before we started taking the deposition? mr. bowers. to my knowledge i can remember nothing else. mr. ball. now, this will be reduced to writing, and you can sign it, look it over and sign it, or waive your signature if you wish. what do you wish? mr. bowers. i have no reason to sign it unless you want me to. mr. ball. would you just as leave waive the signature? mr. bowers. fine. mr. ball. then we thank you very much. testimony of b. j. martin the testimony of b. j. martin was taken at : a.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. joseph a. ball, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. ball. will you stand up, please, and be sworn? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before this commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. martin. i do. mr. ball. will you state you name, please? mr. martin. b. j. martin. mr. ball. and what is your residence address? mr. martin. flamingo lane, dallas. mr. ball. what is your occupation? mr. martin. i am a police officer. mr. ball. with the dallas police department? mr. martin. yes. mr. ball. how long have you been with the police department? mr. martin. it will be years in june. mr. ball. tell me something about yourself, when you were born and where you were raised and where you went to school? mr. martin. i was born in maud, okla., seminole county--went to school--high school at maud, okla., and entered the navy in , from there and was discharged in and lived at compton, okla., for approximately a year, and then returned to dallas and was employed in the police department in june . mr. ball. and were you employed as a motorcycle officer at that time? mr. martin. no, sir; i was employed as an apprentice policeman and worked in the radio patrol division. mr. ball. you are not a motorcycleman? mr. martin. yes. mr. ball. how long have you been a motorcycle officer? mr. martin. let's see, years in january. mr. ball. on november , , did you have some special assignment? mr. martin. yes, sir; i was assigned to the motorcade of president kennedy. mr. ball. and you went out to love field, did you? mr. martin. yes, sir; we made detail about o'clock that morning and was assigned, i don't recall now just what time--it was about minutes before his plane was to arrive at love field. mr. ball. and in the motorcade what was your position? mr. martin. i was assigned to ride on the left-hand rear side of president kennedy. mr. ball. and were you riding alone there, or was another officer riding with you? mr. martin. there was another officer riding with me, b. w. hargis. mr. ball. he was parallel to you on another motorcycle? mr. martin. yes, sir; we were---- mr. ball. two motorcycles abreast? mr. martin. yes. mr. ball. as you turned onto houston from main, can you tell me about the speed of the president's car? mr. martin. my estimation would be to miles an hour when we made the turn onto elm street from houston. mr. ball. from houston? mr. martin. yes. mr. ball. now, did you make the turn from main to houston about the same speed? mr. martin. no, sir; we were going a little faster, i would say--between probably and miles an hour. mr. ball. and then the block between main and elm, did the motorcade slow down? mr. martin. it slowed down just before we made the turn onto elm street. mr. ball. let's take the president's car--what do you think the speed of the president's car was as you made that turn from houston onto elm? mr. martin. i believe the speed was about or miles an hour. mr. ball. what was your speed? mr. martin. approximately the same--maybe a mile slower. mr. ball. were you able to maintain your position on the two-wheeler motorcycle? mr. martin. yes, sir; i believe i did. mr. ball. what is the minimum speed at which you can maintain the position of that motorcycle? mr. martin. about miles per hour, i would imagine. mr. ball. did the president's car pick up any speed from the corner of houston and elm--we'll say half way down that hill? mr. martin. no, sir; i don't recall it picking up any speed in there. mr. ball. they were going fairly slow? mr. martin. it may have picked up, gradually picked up, but not enough that i could notice. mr. ball. did you hear any unusual noise? mr. martin. yes, sir; i heard a shot, or what i thought at the time to be a shot. mr. ball. what was the position of your motorcycle at that time with reference to the president's car? mr. martin. just to the rear of his car--on the left rear of his car. mr. ball. how far from the car, i'll say, to the left of the car and then how far to the rear--so i can get some idea of your position? mr. martin. i would say that my motor was -foot to the left and approximately - to -foot to the rear. mr. ball. of the president's car? mr. martin. of the president's car. mr. ball. were you anywhere near the front end of the secret service car? mr. martin. yes, sir. mr. ball. the car the secret service men were in? mr. martin. yes; we were alongside the front end of their car, because one of the agents got off of the car after the first shot. the best i can remember--i was fairly close to him--he was the person riding on the fender of the car and the first agent from the front of the car, and i was fairly close to him when he jumped off of the car. mr. ball. now, where was the motorcycle driven by mr. hargis, with reference to your right or to your left? mr. martin. he was to my right when we made the turn on houston street. mr. ball. at the time you heard this shot, where was he? mr. martin. i presume he was still to my right. i don't recall seeing him after the shots. mr. ball. he would have been closer to the president's car than you would have? mr. martin. yes, sir--he would have been--i would say - or -foot closer than i was. mr. ball. you traveled along the street about or feet apart from each other? mr. martin. yes, sir--something like that. mr. ball. when you heard the first shot, did you have any idea of the direction which the shot was coming from? mr. martin. no, sir; i didn't. i couldn't tell from which direction it was coming--any of the shots. mr. ball. did you look? mr. martin. yes, sir; i looked back to my right. mr. ball. after which shot? mr. martin. after the first shot. mr. ball. you looked to your right? mr. martin. i looked back to my right. mr. ball. what did you look at? mr. martin. at the building on the right there. mr. ball. is that the texas school book depository building? mr. martin. yes; it is. mr. ball. did you see anything? mr. martin. no, sir. mr. ball. as you turned to the right, did you turn your motorcycle also, or did you turn your body? mr. martin. i believe i just turned my body. i don't believe i ever turned my motor. i believe i kept my motor headed down elm street--west on elm. mr. ball. did you take any notice of the president after the first shot? mr. martin. yes, sir; i looked at the president after i heard the shot and he was leaning forward--i could see the left side of his face. at the time he had no expression on his face. mr. ball. then, did you hear some more shots? mr. martin. yes, sir. mr. ball. how many? mr. martin. two more shots. mr. ball. did you see anything when you looked at the school depository building? mr. martin. no, sir--just the building. mr. ball. and were you able to tell--to determine or did you have any opinion, as to the direction from which the shots were coming--the last two shots--from which direction they came? mr. martin. no, sir; you couldn't tell just where they were coming from. mr. ball. was there any breeze that day? mr. martin. yes; there was. mr. ball. from what direction? mr. martin. i believe it was blowing out of the southwest at that particular location. it seemed like we were going to turn into the wind as we turned off of houston onto elm. mr. ball. the wind was in your face? mr. martin. yes; the best i can recall. mr. ball. now, afterward, did the motorcade pick up speed then? mr. martin. after we turned onto houston? mr. ball. no; after the shots? mr. martin. yes--after the shots we picked up speed. mr. ball. did you go on to parkland? mr. martin. yes, sir; i did. i rode just part of the time alongside of the president's car. at times we were forced to the rear because of the pedestrians standing out on stemmons and there just wasn't enough room to ride in there. mr. ball. could you see the president? mr. martin. no, sir; i couldn't see him--immediately after the first shot i saw him and after that i couldn't see him. mr. ball. and did you see the governor at all? mr. martin. no, sir. i didn't pay any attention to the governor. mr. ball. now, when you got to parkland hospital, what did you do? mr. martin. we pulled into the emergency entrance to parkland hospital. the traffic had already begun to stack up and the officers ahead of the motorcade went on down into the exit and i stopped off at the first turn into the exit about or yards from the entrance to the emergency and began to cut traffic so they wouldn't block the roadway down into the emergency and then we had to park cars--just a lot of people got out of their cars and it was all blocked up and we had to park cars and just generally work traffic around there. mr. ball. you had a white helmet on? mr. martin. yes. mr. ball. did you notice any stains on your helmet? mr. martin. yes, sir; during the process of working traffic there, i noticed that there were blood stains on the windshield on my motor and then i pulled off my helmet and i noticed there were blood stains on the left side of my helmet. mr. ball. to give a more accurate description of the left side, could you tell us about where it started with reference to the forehead? mr. martin. it was just to the left--of what would be the center of my forehead--approximately halfway, about a quarter of the helmet had spots of blood on it. mr. ball. and were there any other spots of any other material on the helmet there besides blood? mr. martin. yes, sir; there was other matter that looked like pieces of flesh. mr. ball. what about your uniform? mr. martin. there was blood and matter on my left shoulder of my uniform. mr. ball. you pointed to a place in front of your shoulder, about the clavicle region? mr. martin. yes, sir. mr. ball. is that about where it was? mr. martin. yes. mr. ball. on the front of your uniform and not on the side? mr. martin. no, sir. mr. ball. that would be left, was it? mr. martin. yes; on the left side. mr. ball. and just below the level of the shoulder? mr. martin. yes, sir. mr. ball. and what spots were there? mr. martin. they were blood spots and other matter. mr. ball. and what did you notice on your windshield? mr. martin. there was blood and other matter on my windshield and also on the motor. mr. ball. was the blood noticeable--were there large splotches? mr. martin. no; they weren't large splotches, they were small--it was not very noticeable unless you looked at it. mr. ball. was the discoloration on your helmet noticeable? mr. martin. not too much--no--as a matter of fact, there were other people around there and two more officers there and they never noticed it. mr. ball. at that time were you with mr. hargis? mr. martin. no, sir; i don't believe that he went to the hospital with us. i believe he stopped there at the scene of the shooting. mr. ball. and did you ever see his helmet or his uniform or the windshield of his motorcycle? mr. martin. no, sir--i never recall seeing him again until the next day. mr. ball. now, was this blood on the outside or the inside of your windshield? mr. martin. it was on the outside of my windshield. mr. ball. was it on the right or left side? mr. martin. it was on the outside of my windshield. mr. ball. and what about the fender of the motorcycle? mr. martin. it was just in the front--right on the front just above the cowling on the motorcycle. mr. ball. you say that when you first heard the first shot you thought it was rifle fire? mr. martin. yes, sir--the sharp crack of it. mr. ball. are you familiar with guns? mr. martin. yes. mr. ball. did you ever fire a rifle? mr. martin. yes, sir. mr. ball. do you own a rifle? mr. martin. yes. mr. ball. you have been hunting, i suppose? mr. martin. i just returned. mr. ball. you've shot high-powered rifles, have you? mr. martin. yes, sir. mr. ball. now, what do you think the speed of the president's car was--give me your best estimate of the speed of the president's car when you heard the first shot? mr. martin. i would say it was under miles an hour--between and at that particular time, about the time of the shots. mr. ball. you were going downhill at that time? mr. martin. yes, sir. the best i remember--i wasn't having any trouble keeping my motor up at that time, so that it was probably between and miles an hour. i don't think it was any faster than . mr. ball. did you at any time come abreast of the president's car in the motorcade? mr. martin. no, sir. mr. ball. were you under certain instructions as to how far behind the car you were to keep? mr. martin. yes, sir. mr. ball. what were those instructions? mr. martin. they instructed us that they didn't want anyone riding past the president's car and that we were to ride to the rear, to the rear of his car, about the rear bumper. mr. ball. i think that's all, officer. this will be written up and you can look it over and sign it if you wish, or you can waive your signature and we will send it on to the commission without it. it's your option. what would you like to do? mr. martin. it doesn't make any difference--it's the truth as i saw it that day. mr. ball. you just as soon waive your signature, then? mr. martin. that would be fine. mr. ball. all right, we'll waive your signature. mr. martin. all right. mr. ball. thanks very much for coming in. mr. martin. okay. testimony of bobby w. hargis the testimony of bobby w. hargis was taken at : p.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. samuel a. stern, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. stern. will you stand, please. do you solemnly swear that the evidence you are about to give shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. hargis. i do. mr. stern. would you state for the record your name and residence address. mr. hargis. bobby w. hargis, adelaide, dallas, tex. mr. stern. what is your occupation? mr. hargis. police officer. mr. stern. how long have you been a member of the dallas police department? mr. hargis. nine years and about months. mr. stern. and you are now a member of the motorcycle---- mr. hargis. division. mr. stern. division? mr. hargis. yes. mr. stern. were you a part of the motorcade on november d? mr. hargis. yes; i was. mr. stern. in what position? mr. hargis. i was at the left-hand side of the presidential limousine. mr. stern. at what part of the president's car? mr. hargis. well---- mr. stern. front, or rear? mr. hargis. oh. rear. mr. stern. riding next to mrs. kennedy? mr. hargis. right. mr. stern. will you describe what occurred or what you observed as the limousine turned into elm street? mr. hargis. well, at the time that the limousine turned left on elm street i was staying pretty well right up with the car. sometimes on elm we couldn't get right up next to it on account of the crowd, but the crowd was thinning out down here at the triple underpass, so, i was next to mrs. kennedy when i heard the first shot, and at that time the president bent over, and governor connally turned around. he was sitting directly in front of him, and a real shocked and surprised expression on his face. mr. stern. on governor connally's? mr. hargis. yes; that is why i thought governor connally had been shot first, but it looked like the president was bending over to hear what he had to say, and i thought to myself then that governor connally, the governor had been hit, and then as the president raised back up like that (indicating) the shot that killed him hit him. i don't know whether it was the second or the third shot. everything happened so fast. mr. stern. but, you cannot now recall more than two shots? mr. hargis. that is all that i can recall remembering. of course, everything was moving so fast at the time that there could have been more shots that i probably never would have noticed them. mr. stern. did something happen to you, personally in connection with the shot you have just described? mr. hargis. you mean about the blood hitting me? mr. stern. yes. mr. hargis. yes; when president kennedy straightened back up in the car the bullet him in the head, the one that killed him and it seemed like his head exploded, and i was splattered with blood and brain, and kind of a bloody water. it wasn't really blood. and at that time the presidential car slowed down. i heard somebody say, "get going," or "get going,"---- mr. stern. someone inside---- mr. hargis. i don't know whether it was the secret service car, and i remembered seeing officer chaney. chaney put his motor in first gear and accelerated up to the front to tell them to get everything out of the way, that he was coming through, and that is when the presidential limousine shot off, and i stopped and got off my motorcycle and ran to the right-hand side of the street, behind the light pole. mr. stern. just a minute. do you recall your impression at the time regarding the source of the shots? mr. hargis. well, at the time it sounded like the shots were right next to me. there wasn't any way in the world i could tell where they were coming from, but at the time there was something in my head that said that they probably could have been coming from the railroad overpass, because i thought since i had got splattered, with blood--i was just a little back and left of--just a little bit back and left of mrs. kennedy, but i didn't know. i had a feeling that it might have been from the texas book depository, and these two places was the primary place that could have been shot from. mr. stern. you were clear that the sounds were sounds of shots? mr. hargis. yes, sir; i knew they were shots. mr. stern. all right, what did you do then? you say you parked your motorcycle? mr. hargis. yes, uh-huh---- mr. stern. where? mr. hargis. it was to the left-hand side of the street from--south side of elm street. mr. stern. and then what did you do? mr. hargis. i ran across the street looking over towards the railroad overpass and i remembered seeing people scattering and running and then i looked---- mr. stern. people on the overpass? mr. hargis. yes; people that were there to see the president i guess. they were taking pictures and things. it was kind of a confused crowd. i don't know whether they were trying to hide or see what was happening or what--and then i looked over to the texas school book depository building, and no one that was standing at the base of the building was--seemed to be looking up at the building or anything like they knew where the shots were coming from, so---- mr. stern. how about the people on the incline on the north side of elm street? do you recall their behavior? mr. hargis. yes; i remember a man holding a child. fell to the ground and covered his child with his body, and people running everywhere, trying to get out of there, i guess, and they were about as confused as to where the shots were coming from as everyone else was. mr. stern. and did you run up the incline on your side of elm street? mr. hargis. yes, sir; i ran to the light post, and i ran up to this kind of a little wall, brick wall up there to see if i could get a better look on the bridge, and, of course, i was looking all around that place by that time. i knew it couldn't have come from the county courthouse because that place was swarming with deputy sheriffs over there. mr. stern. did you get behind the picket fence that runs from the overpass to the concrete wall? mr. hargis. no. mr. stern. on the north side of elm street? mr. hargis. no, no; i don't remember any picket fence. mr. stern. did you observe anything then on the overpass, or on the incline, or around the depository? anything out of the ordinary besides people running? mr. hargis. no; i didn't. that is what got me. mr. stern. so, at that point you were still uncertain as to the direction of the shots? mr. hargis. yes, uh-huh. mr. stern. then, what did you do? mr. hargis. well, then, i thought since i had looked over at the texas book depository and some people looking out of the windows up there, didn't seem like they knew what was going on, but none of them were looking towards, or near anywhere the shots had been fired from. at the time i didn't know, but about the only activity i could see was on the bridge, on the railroad bridge so---- mr. stern. what sort of activity was that? mr. hargis. well, the people that were up there were just trying to get a better look at what was happening and was in a haze and running, or in a confused fashion, and i thought maybe some of them had seen who did the shooting and the rifle. mr. stern. then what did you do? mr. hargis. then i got back on my motorcycle, which was still running, and rode underneath the first underpass to look on the opposite side in order to see if i could see anyone running away from the scene, and since i didn't see anyone coming from that direction i rode under the second underpass, which is stemmons expressway and went up around to see if i could see anyone coming from across stemmons and back that way, and i couldn't see anything that was of a suspicious nature, so, i came back to the texas school book depository. at that time it seemed like the activity was centered around the texas school book depository, so, that is when i heard someone say, one of the sergeants or lieutenants, i don't know, "don't let anyone out of the texas school book depository," and so, i went to a gap that had not been filled, which was at the southwest corner. mr. stern. and you remained there until you were relieved? mr. hargis. yes. mr. stern. anything else that you haven't told us that you think is relevant to our inquiry? mr. hargis. no; i don't believe so. mr. stern. thank you very much, mr. hargis. the reporter will transcribe your testimony and have it available for you to read and sign if you care to. otherwise, you may waive your right to review and sign the testimony and she will mail it direct to the commission, whichever you prefer. it is entirely your option. mr. hargis. well; it really doesn't make any difference. it is more or less what you all think is best. mr. stern. it's entirely up to you. mr. hargis. well, how long will it be until she fixes it up? mr. stern. well, off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. stern. on the record. mr. hargis. all right. well, just go ahead and i will just let you go ahead and send it in without the signature. mr. stern. thank you very much, mr. hargis. testimony of clyde a. haygood testimony of clyde a. haygood was taken at : a.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. david w. belin, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. belin. would you stand and raise your right hand. do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. haygood. i do. mr. belin. would you please state your name. mr. haygood. clyde a. haygood. mr. belin. what is your occupation? mr. haygood. dallas police officer, solo motorcycle section. mr. belin. how old are you? mr. haygood. thirty-two. mr. belin. born in texas? mr. haygood. yes. mr. belin. go to school here in texas? mr. haygood. yes. mr. belin. how far did you get through school? mr. haygood. finished high school. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. haygood. went into the service. mr. belin. what branch? mr. haygood. air force. mr. belin. how long? mr. haygood. four years to the day. mr. belin. what did you do in the air force, generally? mr. haygood. ground crew chief, flight engineer. mr. belin. do you have an honorable discharge? mr. haygood. yes. mr. belin. what did you do when you got out of the air force? mr. haygood. went to work for the dallas police department. mr. belin. what year was that? mr. haygood. . mr. belin. you have been with them ever since? mr. haygood. other than months in which i left the department. mr. belin. what did you do in that months? mr. haygood. went into a business of my own. mr. belin. then went back to the department? mr. haygood. yes, sir. mr. belin. were you on duty on november , ? mr. haygood. yes. mr. belin. what was your assignment that day? mr. haygood. solo motorcycle officer on escort of the presidential motorcade. mr. belin. you started with the motorcade at love field? mr. haygood. yes. mr. belin. went through town with him? mr. haygood. yes. mr. belin. where were you riding as you went through town? mr. haygood. riding to the right rear of the presidential car. mr. belin. how many cars back, if you remember? mr. haygood. well, it varied. it would be hard to say as to how many cars back. mr. belin. do you remember whether officer m. l. baker was riding? mr. haygood. he was riding in front of me. mr. belin. so you would be riding several cars back, generally, from the president's car, is that correct? mr. haygood. yes. mr. belin. did you hear any shots at all? mr. haygood. yes. mr. belin. where were you when you heard the shots? mr. haygood. i was on main street just approaching houston street. mr. belin. how many shots did you hear? mr. haygood. three. mr. belin. were the three spaced equally distant? mr. haygood. no. mr. belin. go ahead. mr. haygood. no. mr. belin. was one more close than the other one? mr. haygood. the last two were closer than the first. in other words, it was the first, and then a pause, and then the other two were real close. mr. belin. what did you do after you heard the sounds? mr. haygood. i made the shift down to lower gear and went on to the scene of the shooting. mr. belin. what do you mean by the scene of the shooting? mr. haygood. there on main street. mr. belin. on main street? mr. haygood. i am sorry, on elm street. mr. belin. what position of elm street? mr. haygood. be just west of houston street. mr. belin. by the scene of the shooting, do you mean the place where you believed the president's car was when the bullets struck? mr. haygood. yes. mr. belin. what did you do when you got there? mr. haygood. when i first got to the location there, i was still on houston street, and in the process of making a left turn onto elm street i could see all these people laying on the ground there on elm. some of them were pointing back up to the railroad yard, and a couple of people were headed back up that way, and i immediately tried to jump the north curb there in the block, which was too high for me to get over. mr. belin. you mean with your motorcycle? mr. haygood. yes. mr. belin. all right. mr. haygood. and i left my motor on the street and ran to the railroad yard. mr. belin. now when you ran to the railroad yard, would that be north or south of elm? mr. haygood. the railroad yard would be located at the--it consist of going over elm street and back north of elm street. mr. belin. what did you do when you got there? mr. haygood. well, there was nothing. there was quite a few people in the area, spectators, and at that time i went back to my motorcycle--it was on the street--to the radio. mr. belin. did you see any people running away from there? mr. haygood. no. they was all going to it. mr. belin. did you talk to any people over there or not? mr. haygood. in the railroad yard, i talked to one of the people i presumed to be a railroad detective that was in the yard. mr. belin. had he been in the yard before or not? mr. haygood. no. he was just coming into the area after i was. mr. belin. he was coming into the area after the shooting? mr. haygood. yes. mr. belin. did he say anything to you, that you remember? mr. haygood. nothing that i remember. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. haygood. i went back to my motorcycle, which was sitting on elm street. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. haygood. at that time some people came up and started talking to me as to the shooting. mr. belin. what did they say? mr. haygood. one stated that he had seen the president when the first shot was fired, and that he definitely was hit. mr. belin. did he say where the shot came from? mr. haygood. and i asked him about where the shots came from, and he stated that he didn't know, that he was looking at him when the first shot was fired, and that he slumped. and when the second shot was fired, he went completely out of sight. mr. belin. you talked to any other witnesses there? mr. haygood. yes. there was another one came up who was located, at the time he stated, on the south side of elm street back toward the triple underpass. back, well, it would be north of the underpass there, and said he had gotten hit by a piece of concrete or something, and he did have a slight cut on his right cheek, upper portion of his cheek just to the right of his nose. mr. belin. would he have been to the front or to the back of the presidential car at the time of the shot? mr. haygood. i don't know what you mean to the front or the back. mr. belin. when he was standing, was he to the west or to the east of the president's car at the time of the shooting? mr. haygood. he would be to the south of it and then west. mr. belin. southwest of it? mr. haygood. yes. mr. belin. talk to anyone else? mr. haygood. and at that time, approximately, well, i was talking to him at the time this other man came up and told me that he didn't know what it was about, but he was quite sure the shot had come from this building there which he pointed out to be the texas school book depository building. mr. belin. did he say why? mr. haygood. he said when the first shot was fired he glanced back and there was something in the building, he couldn't determine what it was, but it was just something there that he couldn't explain, but he was definite that the shots did come from there. and after talking to him and the man that was on the other side that complained he was hit by a piece of concrete from the ricochet at that time, i called the dispatcher and asked for squads to cover the texas school book depository building off. mr. belin. do you remember what your number was that day? mr. haygood. beg your pardon? mr. belin. do you remember what number you used for calling the dispatcher that day? mr. haygood. yes. my original call number is . mr. belin. i have here a sawyer deposition exhibit a, which appears to be a transcript of a police radio log, and i notice that at : p.m., there is a call from to . is your station headquarters? mr. haygood. right. mr. belin. do you want to read what you said? mr. haygood. "i talked to a guy at the scene who says the shots were fired from the texas school book depository building with the hertz rent a car sign on top." mr. belin. is that what you said? mr. haygood. approximately. i don't recall the exact words. mr. belin. there was a response to you. what does it say there? mr. haygood. "get his name, address, phone number and all information you can." mr. belin. did you do that? mr. haygood. no, i never. mr. belin. what happened? mr. haygood. because i was told to go to the school book depository building. i instructed the three different people to come to the front of the school book depository building and remain there until they were talked to. mr. belin. you took these people that you had with you? mr. haygood. i did not take them, no. mr. belin. you instructed them to go there? mr. haygood. yes. mr. belin. in front of the school book depository? mr. haygood. yes. mr. belin. and remain there until someone talked to them? mr. haygood. right. mr. belin. you don't know the names of these people? mr. haygood. no, i don't. mr. belin. do you know who talked to them at all? mr. haygood. no; i don't. mr. belin. what did you do then? mr. haygood. at that time i went to the school building at the rear location of it, which would be---- mr. belin. to the back door? mr. haygood. north side of it, yes. mr. belin. where that door leads out there to the dock? mr. haygood. yes; on the northeast corner there. mr. belin. what did you do then? mr. haygood. at that time i talked to the colored male that was standing at the door and asked him how long he had been there, and he said he had been there some minutes or so. and i asked him if anyone had came out that door, and he said that they had not. mr. belin. do you remember his name? mr. haygood. no; i don't. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. haygood. at that time, it was people, squads and all arriving at the scene, and i went on into the building, which they stayed outside, and helped them search the building. mr. belin. anything else? mr. haygood. that is about all. mr. belin. did you search the building on the sixth floor or not? mr. haygood. yes. mr. belin. were you there when they found the rifle? mr. haygood. yes. mr. belin. were you there when they found the shells? mr. haygood. yes. mr. belin. where were you when the shells were found? mr. haygood. i was on the sixth floor when the shells were found. i was still on the sixth when they found the rifle--on the fifth. mr. belin. on the fifth? mr. haygood. sixth floor, rather, i am sorry. mr. belin. where on the sixth floor were you when the shells were found? mr. haygood. i don't recall just exactly where it was at. it was on the floor there, though. it was just a big open floor. mr. belin. do you mean they were somewhere on that open floor? mr. haygood. yes. mr. belin. did you hear someone say they have shells, something like that? mr. haygood. yes. mr. belin. do you remember who that was? mr. haygood. no; i don't. mr. belin. what did you do then? mr. haygood. went up to another location there. mr. belin. you saw some shells there? mr. haygood. yes. mr. belin. where did you see them? mr. haygood. they were there under the window. mr. belin. which window? mr. haygood. on the southeast corner. mr. belin. south side or east side? mr. haygood. on the southeast corner facing south. mr. belin. see any paper bags or anything around there? mr. haygood. yes; there was a lunch bag there. you could call it a lunch bag. mr. belin. where was that? mr. haygood. there at the same location where the shells were. mr. belin. was there a coke bottle or anything with it? mr. haygood. dr. pepper bottle. mr. belin. see any long bags which would be a foot or foot and a half or more long? mr. haygood. yes; just a plain brown paper bag with tape in the corner. mr. belin. what, tape? mr. haygood. yes; there was just brown paper tape on it. just a brown paper bag with paper tape. it had been taped up. mr. belin. how long was that, if you can remember? mr. haygood. the exact length, i couldn't say. it was approximately rifle length. mr. belin. would this have been right under the window, or to the east or west of the window, if you remember? mr. haygood. as i remember, it was directly in the corner, in the southeast corner. mr. belin. well, as you remember, was the window directly in the southeast corner, or was the window a little bit to the west of that corner, if you remember? mr. haygood. the window at that location faces south, on the southeast corner. mr. belin. about how far from the east corner of the building is the window? mr. haygood. well, it is just approximately like that, and then the corner here. like the window would be there, and then it would be a corner. mr. belin. as far as the window in this room from that corner [indicating in room]? mr. haygood. i wouldn't even attempt to say the approximate distance of the window from the corner. i don't know. mr. belin. well, if you don't know, that is what i want to find out. mr. haygood. yes. mr. belin. was the bag right under the window? mr. haygood. it was in the corner. mr. belin. not under the window? mr. haygood. no; it was in the corner of the building, the southeast corner. mr. belin. anything else you noticed up there? mr. haygood. that is all. mr. belin. now, where were you when you saw the--when you heard a rifle had been found? mr. haygood. on the floor there, best as i can remember, and i went to that same location as the other one, just like i stated on the other one where the shells was found. mr. belin. do you remember where that rifle was found, roughly, or not? mr. haygood. it was in a row of books back on the opposite corner. be on the west side of the building, back to the northwest corner. mr. belin. all right, anything else you remember while you were there? mr. haygood. no. mr. belin. what did you do after that, after the rifle was found? mr. haygood. well, it still wasn't determined whether the assailant wasn't still in the building even at that time, even after the rifle was found, and the search was continued in the building for a while after that. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. haygood. at that time after that i went to the street, went downstairs to the street. mr. belin. did you participate in any other investigation that day? mr. haygood. no. mr. belin. what about on saturday? mr. haygood. on saturday i was on my way to colorado. mr. belin. so you weren't around on sunday either? mr. haygood. no. on sunday when the other shooting was taking place, i was knee deep in snow in colorado. mr. belin. is there any other information you can think of, whether i have asked it or not, that in any way would be relevant to the assassination of the president or the shooting of officer tippit? mr. haygood. no, nothing; i was out of town. mr. belin. all right, sir. we thank you very much for your cooperation here. you have an opportunity, if you want to come down and read this deposition and sign it before it goes to washington, or you can waive the reading and signing of it and just have the court reporter send it directly to us, whatever you want to do? mr. haygood. it makes no difference. mr. belin. it makes no difference to us either. mr. haygood. just waive the signing. i don't know when i can get back over here. (officer haygood was summoned back in a few minutes from across the street at the republic national bank building to answer the following question.) mr. belin. officer haygood, i will continue your deposition with one more question, if you would, and you are still under oath. you mentioned in your sworn deposition that you talked to about two people that you saw, and you pointed it out in your transmission at : p.m., under your call no. . is that correct? mr. haygood. right. mr. belin. i notice on there another transmission at : p.m. could you read what the transcript has there. mr. haygood. well, this part of the deposition i covered it a while ago but i gave you, is when i called to have the texas school book depository covered there. that is one of the witnesses i had that believed the shot came from that location. mr. belin. could you read what you said there? mr. haygood. it says, "get men to cover the building, texas school book depository, believe the shots came from there, facing it on elm street looking at the building it will be the second window from the end in the upper right hand corner." mr. belin. did you say that? mr. haygood. yes. mr. belin. then the transmission made to you, to calling, "how many do you have there?" and you made a response which is? mr. haygood. "one guy possibly hit by a ricochet off the concrete and another seen the president slump." mr. belin. were there two more people in addition to the one that you saw? mr. haygood. they are still the same people i was referring to back on the transmission that i made. mr. belin. how many different people did you talk to? one that was possibly hit by a ricochet? mr. haygood. piece of concrete. mr. belin. was he the one that saw the president slump? mr. haygood. no. mr. belin. was there someone that saw the president slump, and a third stated it was from the second window from the end in the upper right-hand corner? mr. haygood. i don't recall how many it was. there was quite a chaos there at that time. mr. belin. do you remember if there were two or more than two? mr. haygood. no, sir. mr. belin. do you remember anything about the description of the man that said that the shot came from the second window from the end in the upper right-hand corner? mr. haygood. no. mr. belin. do you remember if he was white or negro? mr. haygood. he was a white man. mr. belin. man or woman? mr. haygood. man. mr. belin. do you remember whether he was young or medium or old? mr. haygood. that would be a guess on my part. i don't recall. he was just a medium age. mr. belin. do you remember if he was dressed in a suit or not a suit? mr. haygood. best i remember, just sports clothes. i mean, it consisted of no tie or coat. mr. belin. okay, thank you, sir. testimony of e. d. brewer the testimony of e. d. brewer was taken at a.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. david w. belin, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. belin. would you stand and raise your right hand. do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. brewer. i do. mr. belin. would you state your name. mr. brewer. e. d. brewer. mr. belin. what is your occupation, mr. brewer? mr. brewer. police officer for the city of dallas. mr. belin. how old are you? mr. brewer. i am years old. mr. belin. you go to school here in dallas? mr. brewer. yes, sir. mr. belin. how far did you get through school? mr. brewer. i graduated from high school. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. brewer. i got married and went to work for the dallas power & light. about a year later i went into the u.s. coast guard and stayed years. mr. belin. honorable discharge? mr. brewer. yes, sir. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. brewer. i went to work for the dallas police department. mr. belin. you have been working for them about years now? mr. brewer. since december . mr. belin. were you on duty on november , ? mr. brewer. yes, sir. mr. belin. what was your assignment that day? mr. brewer. i was riding solo motorcycle, in the presidential motorcade. mr. belin. what position were you in in the motorcade? mr. brewer. i was in the front. mr. belin. by which car? near which car? mr. brewer. if i remember correctly, the president's car was about--the chief of police was in a car immediately in front. the president's car was behind him, i believe, if i remember correctly, and i was in front of the chief's car. mr. belin. you were in front of the chief's car? mr. brewer. yes. mr. belin. you were in the lead part of the motorcade? mr. brewer. yes. i was the front vehicle. there was four or five of us up there in a line across the street. mr. belin. do you remember how fast you were going as you went down main street there towards houston? mr. brewer. no, sir; not exactly. the speed of it would vary considerably according to the crowd of people on each side of the street as to how we could get through. mr. belin. did you remember how fast you were going as you turned north on houston? mr. brewer. it was in my assignment to leave my position there and go ahead of the motorcade as we were approaching houston on main street, and before we got to houston street i left. i pulled out ahead of them, and following the same route, went down to the intersection or to where the motorcade was to come onto stemmons freeway. mr. belin. so your speed wasn't necessarily accurate with the motorcade, is that correct, sometimes? mr. brewer. yes, sir; i had pulled away from the motorcade on main street and proceeded on down to the stemmons freeway. mr. belin. where were you when you heard the shot? mr. brewer. i never did hear any shots. mr. belin. when was the first time you learned that something was wrong? mr. brewer. i was on stemmons freeway there where you come onto it, where the motorcade come onto stemmons. went under stemmons and around to the right and onto stemmons, and i was on stemmons expressway off of my motorcycle there on the expressway when i believe i heard it on the radio first about the shooting. mr. belin. were you to stop traffic on the expressway? mr. brewer. yes. i was to assist some other officers in stopping traffic on the expressway to allow the motorcade to get onto it. mr. belin. so you were in the process of stopping traffic, waiting for the motorcade to come by, when you heard something on your motorcycle radio? mr. brewer. yes, sir. mr. belin. how far were you from the so-called underpass there, or overpass there? mr. brewer. i was to the north of where the railroad track goes over. let's see, the railroad track, where the railroad tracks go over stemmons expressway. i was to the north of that. mr. belin. let me try and get a sketch. officer, i just stepped out of the room to come back in and bring a map of dallas, which i believe is similar to commission's exhibit , which i am going to mark here deposition exhibit a, which we will call it e. d. brewer deposition exhibit a. i have it marked in red pencil here, and on this map of dallas, on one side of it in one corner of it is a section called, downtown dallas, and this is towards the top of the reverse side of the map. i am going to ask you to look at this map. you see the place here, it looks like dedley plaza, main street runs into that, which is houston, then you turned north on houston and elm, and then you take elm? mr. brewer. left on elm. mr. belin. left on elm. you went under the railroad underpass there, which appears to be in green on the map, is that correct? mr. brewer. yes, sir. mr. belin. then i am going to ask you to take a pencil or a ball point pen, and you might just follow the route that you took. just mark it parallel to whatever street you took to where you ended up. mr. brewer. (marks on map.) down elm under the railroad tracks to stemmons, under stemmons to the right, headed north parallel to stemmons on that entranceway, under that t & p railroad, and onto stemmons expressway, and just north of the t & p railroad. mr. belin. now is that where you stopped your motorcycle? mr. brewer. yes, sir. mr. belin. i am going to put an arrow pointing to the spot that you stopped, is that correct? mr. brewer. yes, that is the spot right there. mr. belin. you have it marked kind of with an "x"? mr. brewer. to the best of my knowledge, that is right where we was at. mr. belin. was another officer there at the time when you got there? mr. brewer. yes. mr. belin. what were they doing? mr. brewer. we all proceeded to stop the traffic northbound on stemmons. mr. belin. why were you going to do that? mr. brewer. so that the motorcade which was headed in that direction at that time could get onto stemmons and wouldn't be interfered with by the rest of the traffic. mr. belin. all right, where were you when you first learned of the shooting or that something was wrong? mr. brewer. at that location. mr. belin. how did you learn about it? mr. brewer. i believe it was on the radio, we heard it. mr. belin. what did you do? mr. brewer. on the police radio. well, when it was determined that--right after we heard that on the radio, something about it on the radio, we heard that they were enroute to parkland hospital, and immediately after that they came by us and came onto stemmons expressway and went by us in the direction of parkland hospital, the motorcade, part of it. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. brewer. we heard that the shots had came from the texas school book depository building, and at that time i got on my motorcycle and proceeded back up to the texas school book depository building. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. brewer. i went in the building. mr. belin. you went inside the building? mr. brewer. yes, sir; there was officers all around the building at the time i got there. mr. belin. what did you do when you got in the building? mr. brewer. well, with some other officers, we was part of the officers that was searching the building floor by floor. mr. belin. now what was your call number that day? mr. brewer. . mr. belin. handing you what has been marked sawyer deposition exhibit a, which appears to be a transcript of a police log of the dallas police department, you see this exhibit here? mr. brewer. yes. mr. belin. your call number that day was? mr. brewer. . mr. belin. i notice here that the first time there appears call no. , after : is at : p.m. there is a call from to . you want to read what it says there? mr. brewer. "a witness says he saw 'em pull the weapon from the window off the second floor on the southeast corner of the depository building." mr. belin. would that have been the second floor or the second floor from the top? mr. brewer. i don't know. mr. belin. do you remember any witness talking to you at all? mr. brewer. yes. mr. belin. do you remember what he said? mr. brewer. he said that he had saw him pull a weapon from the window from that building. mr. belin. do you remember what window he said? mr. brewer. i don't remember specifically which window he indicated, but i immediately told that to the dispatcher and proceeded on up to the building. mr. belin. i see the conversation continues on the next page. the dispatcher no. , to , "do you have the building covered off?" and then you reply: mr. brewer. "i'm about three-fourths of a block away." mr. belin. is that where you were when this man---- mr. brewer. yes, sir. mr. belin. now from the time you first heard that something was wrong, you had taken your motorcycle and gone where? mr. brewer. sir? mr. belin. you were on the stemmons freeway when you heard that something was wrong, is that correct? mr. brewer. yes, sir. mr. belin. then you went from stemmons freeway where? mr. brewer. up to the texas school depository building. mr. belin. did you stop anywhere along the way? mr. brewer. no, sir; the only time that i stopped was when this guy come up to me and told it to me, and then was gone. mr. belin. well, you did stop then and talk to this one individual? mr. brewer. yes. mr. belin. which street were you on when you stopped? mr. brewer. i was proceeding back up elm street the wrong way on elm. mr. belin. about where were you when this one person talked that said he saw him pull the weapon in? mr. brewer. i was down there about the triple underpass on elm. mr. belin. you mean right under the triple underpass? mr. brewer. or coming to it. mr. belin. well, coming to it? mr. brewer. from the west. mr. belin. would you have been on the west side of that? mr. brewer. yes, right there about that curb. mr. belin. before you left stemmons freeway, did you look up or around to see if there was anything suspicious in that area? mr. brewer. we was all looking up in the railroad tracks from the west side. mr. belin. did you see anything at all? mr. brewer. no, sir; we saw some people coming up there, but they seemed to be up there looking. mr. belin. you mean you saw people up there searching? mr. brewer. yes, sir. mr. belin. did you see anybody running away? mr. brewer. no, sir. mr. belin. see anyone acting suspiciously by himself? mr. brewer. no, sir. mr. belin. then you left that area and came right down the wrong way, you say, back to retrace your route, is that correct? mr. brewer. yes, sir. mr. belin. then somewhere in the vicinity of the railroad underpass, you were stopped by this one individual that you reported on the radio log, is that correct? mr. brewer. yes, sir. mr. belin. do you remember whether this man that you talked to was a white male or a negro? mr. brewer. he was a white man, the best of my memory. mr. belin. do you remember anything else about him? mr. brewer. no, sir. mr. belin. did he have any camera or anything? mr. brewer. not that i recall. mr. belin. now after this order to report to the school book depository building, what did you do? mr. brewer. i went there. mr. belin. what did you do when you got there? mr. brewer. went in the building. mr. belin. which door? mr. brewer. by the front door. mr. belin. had the building been sealed off by the time you got there? mr. brewer. yes, sir. mr. belin. were officers blocking everyone that was coming in, to prohibit them from coming in and going out? mr. brewer. yes. mr. belin. what did you do when you got there? mr. brewer. i went inside the building. mr. belin. where did you go? mr. brewer. i proceeded to assist in the floor to floor search of the building with some other officers. mr. belin. what floor did you start on? mr. brewer. on the bottom floor. mr. belin. you went up to the top? mr. brewer. yes, sir. mr. belin. how far up did you go? mr. brewer. we searched all of it before we quit. mr. belin. well, were you ever on the th floor? mr. brewer. yes. mr. belin. were you on the sixth floor when you found anything there? mr. brewer. yes, sir. mr. belin. what did you find? mr. brewer. i was on the sixth floor when they found those spent cases from the rifle. mr. belin. where were you when they found them? mr. brewer. i don't know exactly. i was on the floor searching around in among some boxes that were stacked up there. mr. belin. hear anyone say anything about cartridge cases or anything? mr. brewer. yes, sir. whoever found them turned around and let it be known to one of the supervisor officers that he had found them, or that they had been found over there. mr. belin. what did you do when you heard the news? mr. brewer. i continued searching. mr. belin. did you go and take a look at the cartridge cases? mr. brewer. yes, sir. mr. belin. how many cartridge cases did you see? mr. brewer. three. mr. belin. where were they? mr. brewer. they were there under, by the window. mr. belin. what window? mr. brewer. in the southeast corner of the building, facing south. mr. belin. see anything else there at the time by the window? mr. brewer. paper lunch sack and some chicken bones or partially eaten piece of chicken, or a piece of chicken. mr. belin. anything else? mr. brewer. a drink bottle. mr. belin. what bottle? mr. brewer. a cold drink bottle, soda pop bottle. mr. belin. anything else? mr. brewer. in relation to what? mr. belin. did you see anything else in the southeast corner? mr. brewer. there was a paper, relatively long paper sack there. mr. belin. where was that? mr. brewer. it was there in the southeast corner. mr. belin. under the window? mr. brewer. no, sir. to the left of it. to the east of it. mr. belin. to the left as you faced the window? mr. brewer. yes, sir. mr. belin. did the window come right up next to the corner there, do you remember? mr. brewer. no, sir; it didn't come up next to the corner. it was offset. mr. belin. can you remember how far at all, or not? mr. brewer. no, sir; i don't remember the exact distance of it. mr. belin. was any part of the paper sack under the window, if you remember or not? that long paper sack? mr. brewer. no, sir. mr. belin. do you remember anything about what the sack looked like? mr. brewer. well, it was assumed at the time that it was the sack that the rifle was wrapped up in when it was brought into the building, and it appeared that it could have been used for that. mr. belin. well, you mean you assumed that before you found the rifle? mr. brewer. yes, sir; i suppose. that was discussed. mr. belin. do you remember anything else that was found around there or not? mr. brewer. not in that particular area. mr. belin. anything found anywhere else in the sixth floor? mr. brewer. yes, sir. the rifle was found on the sixth floor. mr. belin. where was that? mr. brewer. it was found in a northwest corner under some, in between some boxes that were stacked up there at the head of the stairs. mr. belin. were you there when they found the rifle? mr. brewer. yes, sir. mr. belin. how far away from the area were you when you found the rifle, if you remember? mr. brewer. several feet from it. i don't remember exactly. mr. belin. did you see the rifle? mr. brewer. yes, sir. mr. belin. where was it located? mr. brewer. it was laying down low on the door or on the floor down between some, a very narrow space where boxes were stacked up there, and there was a space between the boxes, and it was laying down there in between it, like it had been stuck in there hurriedly, and possibly just before whoever laid it there went down the stairs. mr. belin. anything else you found of significance in the building at all or not? mr. brewer. not that i recall. mr. belin. what did you do the rest of the afternoon? mr. brewer. well, we proceeded to search the building after that, and we spent, i don't know the exact amount of time we spent in the building after that, but when lieutenant jack revill was satisfied, we went back downstairs and i went back out to my motorcycle and to my immediate superior officer and received another assignment. mr. belin. did you have anything to do with the investigation of the assassination that day? mr. brewer. no, sir. mr. belin. what about on saturday? mr. brewer. no, sir. mr. belin. sunday? mr. brewer. no, sir. my primary job was traffic control. mr. belin. did you have anything to do with the investigation of officer tippit's murder? mr. brewer. no, sir. mr. belin. is there anything that you can think of that might in any way be relevant to the assassination of the president or the shooting of officer tippit? mr. brewer. not that i can think of; no, sir. mr. belin. sir, i want to thank you very much for coming on down here. you have an opportunity, if you like, to come back and read the deposition and sign it, or else you can waive the signing of it and have it sent directly to washington, whichever you prefer. mr. brewer. it don't matter. whichever you prefer. mr. belin. we have no preference. mr. brewer. okay, you send it on. mr. belin. do you want to waive the signing of it? mr. brewer. yes, sir. testimony of d. v. harkness the testimony of d. v. harkness was taken at : a.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. david w. belin, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. belin. will you stand and raise your right hand? do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. harkness. i do. mr. belin. your name, sir, would you please state? mr. harkness. d. v. harkness, dallas police department. mr. belin. where do you live? mr. harkness. san pablo. mr. belin. is that in dallas? mr. harkness. yes, sir. mr. belin. what position do you have with the dallas police department? mr. harkness. sergeant of police. mr. belin. how long have you been with the dallas police department? mr. harkness. little over years. mr. belin. how old are you, sir? mr. harkness. forty-two. mr. belin. did you go to school here in dallas? mr. harkness. yes, sir. mr. belin. how far did you get through school? mr. harkness. high school. mr. belin. high school graduate? mr. harkness. yes, sir. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. harkness. one year worked for the east texas refining co. mr. belin. then what? mr. harkness. then i worked for the baker hotel in the auditing office. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. harkness. went in the service for years. mr. belin. army? mr. harkness. coast guard. mr. belin. what did you do in the coast guard generally? mr. harkness. i was a boatswain's mate second when i was discharged. mr. belin. doing what? mr. harkness. let's see, i was on the troop transport at the time of my discharge. mr. belin. honorable discharge? mr. harkness. yes, sir. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. harkness. come back and went to work for alexander motor co. mr. belin. as what? mr. harkness. worked in the office in the purchasing department. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. harkness. went with the dallas police department. mr. belin. been there ever since? mr. harkness. ever since. mr. belin. were you on duty november , ? mr. harkness. yes, sir. mr. belin. doing what? mr. harkness. supervising the traffic officers from main and field along the parade route to elm and houston. mr. belin. where were you around : p.m.? mr. harkness. at main and houston. mr. belin. on the east or west side of houston? mr. harkness. west side of houston. mr. belin. did you watch the motorcade come by? mr. harkness. yes, sir. mr. belin. where were you when you heard the shots? mr. harkness. i had started west on main street to the, i don't know what they call this area here. mr. belin. plaza. mr. harkness. on the plaza area with the crowd to observe the president as he went west on elm street. mr. belin. how many shots did you hear? mr. harkness. three. mr. belin. what did you do after you heard those noises? did you know they were shots, by the way? mr. harkness. yes, sir. mr. belin. what did you do? mr. harkness. when i saw the first shot and the president's car slow down to almost a stop---- mr. belin. when you saw the first shot, what do you mean by that? mr. harkness. when i heard the first shot and saw the president's car almost come to a stop and some of the agents piling off the car, i went back to the intersection to get my motorcycle. mr. belin. you were in the process of doing that when you heard the second and third shots? mr. harkness. yes, sir. mr. belin. where did the shots sound like they came from? mr. harkness. i couldn't tell. they were bouncing off the buildings down there. i couldn't tell. mr. belin. you mean the reverberations? mr. harkness. yes. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. harkness. i went west on main to observe the area between the railroad tracks and industrial. mr. belin. why did you go down there? mr. harkness. by the way the people, when i went into this area, everybody was hitting the ground, and someone led us to indicate that the shots were coming into the cars. mr. belin. you mean from some point in front of the cars? mr. harkness. yes. mr. belin. do you know who that someone was? mr. harkness. no, sir. mr. belin. what did that person do that indicated that? mr. harkness. i don't remember. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. harkness. i went down to industrial to see if i could see anyone fleeing that area. mr. belin. what did you see? mr. harkness. i didn't see anyone, so i come back to the front of the book depository and went around to this fence that was across the street from elm street. mr. belin. what do you mean across the street from elm street? mr. harkness. again, i will have to--near the railroad track. mr. belin. behind the building? mr. harkness. no, sir; this area right here. see, elm street goes down. mr. belin. what you are really saying---- mr. harkness. this area. mr. belin. you are pointing to a place between what would be the extension of elm that doesn't go down into the parkway but the actual extension of elm? mr. harkness. yes; to the plaza area. mr. belin. the plaza area? mr. harkness. yes, sir. mr. belin. what did you find there? mr. harkness. i found a little colored boy, amos euins, who told me he saw the shots come from that building. mr. belin. now you just picked out a little small book, one of those little pocket notebooks? mr. harkness. yes, sir. mr. belin. or a notepad from your pocket here. is that the original notation that you made? mr. harkness. yes, sir. mr. belin. when did you make that notation? mr. harkness. immediately after the shooting. mr. belin. is that your own record that you have kept in your possession since then? mr. harkness. yes, sir. i turned---- mr. belin. you turned what? mr. harkness. after i took his name and address and put this information on the radio, i then took him on the back of my three-wheel motorcycle and put him in inspector sawyer's car. mr. belin. now you mentioned that you put something on the radio here, and i hand you here what has been marked as sawyer deposition exhibit a. before doing that, do you remember what call number you used, you were using on that day? mr. harkness. i believe . mr. belin. well, i notice here that there is a call with a notation at : p.m., to . is your office in the main station? mr. harkness. yes, sir. mr. belin. what does it say there on that transcript? mr. harkness. "witness says shots came from fifth floor, texas book depository store at houston and elm. i have him with me now and we are sealing off the building." mr. belin. all right, that was at : p.m.? mr. harkness. yes, sir. mr. belin. had the building been sealed off at that time? mr. harkness. not to my knowledge. there were several officers around it, but i don't know whether it had been sealed off or not. mr. belin. in the process of sealing off the building, what did you do? mr. harkness. asked for a squad. mr. belin. how long did it take you after that to have the back part sealed off? mr. harkness. the squad was arriving by the time i got off my motorcycle. there was already additional squads en route. mr. belin. how soon after : p.m., would you say the building was sealed off? mr. harkness. it was sealed off then because i was back there and two other men. mr. belin. you are talking about the back part of the building? mr. harkness. yes, sir. mr. belin. what about the front part of the building? when was that sealed off? mr. harkness. inspector sawyer and two officers were there. mr. belin. by the time you got around to the front part of the building? mr. harkness. yes, sir; by the time i put the witness in his car, i went immediately to the back. mr. belin. in other words, as i understand the sequence, you first went to the back of the building and had that sealed off first, or not? mr. harkness. no, sir. mr. belin. you tell me what happened then. mr. harkness. i had this witness with me. i didn't want to lose this witness. mr. belin. all right. mr. harkness. so i took him to the car. mr. belin. to inspector sawyer's car? mr. harkness. to inspector sawyer's car, which was right in front. mr. belin. which was parked in front of the texas school book depository? mr. harkness. and left the witness there and went around to the back. mr. belin. on whose radio did you call? did you call in before or after you left the witness in the car? mr. harkness. i don't remember in exact sequence there, but it was in the process of going to the car there. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. harkness. see, here is the thing. the radio traffic was heavy at the time, and it depended on how long you had to wait to get in. mr. belin. all right, in any event, after you made the call, what did you do on the radio? and after you got the man in the car? mr. harkness. well---- mr. belin. the witness in the car, what did you do? mr. harkness. stayed at the back of the building until i was relieved by a squad. mr. belin. so you then went to the back of the building? mr. harkness. yes. mr. belin. when you were at inspector sawyer's car, did you see him there? mr. harkness. yes, sir. mr. belin. was he at his car? mr. harkness. yes, sir; he was by his car, near his car. mr. belin. do you know whether or not he had gone inside the building yet? mr. harkness. no, sir. mr. belin. you mean you don't know? mr. harkness. don't know whether he had gone in or not. actually, he was standing there in front taking information. all the information was being funneled to inspector sawyer. mr. belin. did you tell him you had a witness? mr. harkness. yes, sir. mr. belin. in his car? mr. harkness. yes, sir. mr. belin. at that time, had the building been sealed off yet when you told him that? mr. harkness. at that time? mr. belin. when you told inspector sawyer that you had a witness that said the shot came from the building, up to that particular moment, had the front part of the building been sealed off yet? mr. harkness. yes, sir. mr. belin. it had already been sealed off? mr. harkness. there was two officers with inspector sawyer at the front. mr. belin. were they stopping people from going in and out? mr. harkness. i don't know. mr. belin. you don't know? mr. harkness. no, sir; i don't know that, because i didn't go up and talk to them. mr. belin. did you notice whether or not people were coming in and out of the building? mr. harkness. no. i was interested in getting around to the back of the building to make sure it was. mr. belin. then am i correct that your testimony is that you didn't notice whether people were coming in and out? did you notice, or did you not notice whether people were coming out of the building at that time? mr. harkness. several officers at the area, and it was a lot of people around. i don't know whether they were going in or out or not. i couldn't say that. mr. belin. then you went around to the back of the building? mr. harkness. yes, sir. mr. belin. was anyone around in the back when you got there? mr. harkness. there were some secret service agents there. i didn't get them identified. they told me they were secret service. mr. belin. then did you stay around the back of the building? mr. harkness. yes; i stayed at the back until the squad got there. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. harkness. i went back to the front, and inspector sawyer--helped to get the crowd back first, and then inspector sawyer assigned me to some freight cars that were leaving out of the yard, to go down and search all freight cars that were leaving the yard. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. harkness. well, we got a long freight that was in there, and we pulled some people off of there and took them to the station. mr. belin. you mean some transients? mr. harkness. tramps and hoboes. mr. belin. that were on the freight car? mr. harkness. yes, sir. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. harkness. that was all my assignment, because they shook two long freights down that were leaving, to my knowledge, in all the area there. we had several officers working in that area. mr. belin. do you know whether or not anyone found any suspicious people of any kind or nature down there in the railroad yard? mr. harkness. yes, sir. we made some arrests, i put some people in. mr. belin. were these what you call hoboes or tramps? mr. harkness. yes, sir. mr. belin. were all those questioned? mr. harkness. yes, sir; they were taken to the station and questioned. mr. belin. any guns of any kind found? mr. harkness. not to my knowledge. mr. belin. i want to go back to this amos euins. do you remember what he said to you and what you said to him when you first saw him? mr. harkness. i went in that crowd up there near the area there, and asked did anyone see any place where the shots come from, and there was an unidentified person pointed to him, said this boy here saw it, saw the shots, where the shots came from, and he told me it was. mr. belin. then what did he say? mr. harkness. he told me that the shots came from the window under the ledge. mr. belin. of what building? mr. harkness. of the school book depository. mr. belin. now have you since gone back to that building? mr. harkness. yes, sir. mr. belin. do you know where the ledge is? mr. harkness. yes, sir; let's see, i have been by the place a million times. the ledge there is the one window where it came from, i believe. mr. belin. you can't right now definitely state what floor the ledge would be? mr. harkness. well---- mr. belin. if you can't, i would rather not have you guess, but if you do know, i would like to have you state. mr. harkness. i believe that it---- mr. belin. sergeant, now, do you know where that ledge is now? mr. harkness. yes, sir. mr. belin. between what floors is the ledge? mr. harkness. the ledge is between, over the sixth floor. mr. belin. all right, well here in your police report i show you sawyer deposition exhibit a, you said the, "witness says shots came from fifth floor texas school book depository." did the witness say it was from the sixth floor, or did he say it was from the fifth floor? mr. harkness. he said it was from the fifth floor. mr. belin. what were the exact words of the witness? mr. harkness. the exact words of the witness "it was under the ledge," which would put it on the sixth floor. it was my error in a hasty count of the floors. mr. belin. did the witness say what particular window on that floor that he saw it on? on the floor under the ledge? mr. harkness. said it was the last window, which would indicate it would be the last window on the east side of the building. mr. belin. did he say to his right as he saw it, or did he just say the last window from where he was standing? mr. harkness. last window from where he was standing, and at that point it would indicate that it would be the last window on the east side of the building facing elm street. mr. belin. were you standing at the time, on the north or south side of elm when you talked to this witness? mr. harkness. i was. mr. belin. when you were with this witness, had this amos euins, were you standing on the north or the south side of elm as it goes into the parkway there? mr. harkness. elm as it goes under the parkway--was between elm where it goes under the triple underpass, and the extension of elm there in that park area. mr. belin. so that is where you were standing? mr. harkness. yes. mr. belin. so that would be north of elm as it goes into the underpass, but south of the extension of elm? mr. harkness. where that building is, yes, sir. mr. belin. would you have been west of the school book depository building at that time? mr. harkness. yes. mr. belin. so the witness pointed to the last one on that floor? that would be the last one which would be to the east, is that correct? mr. harkness. that's correct. mr. belin. anything else you can remember this witness said? mr. harkness. no, sir. mr. belin. did he say whether or not he saw a rifle? mr. harkness. he couldn't tell. mr. belin. sergeant, do you remember anything else that you said? mr. harkness. no, sir. mr. belin. did you actually talk to any other person whose name you recorded in your little book there? mr. harkness. yes, sir; arnold rowland. mr. belin. arnold rowland? mr. harkness. yes, sir. mr. belin. what did he say? mr. harkness. he said that he saw a man on one of those floors. he didn't clearly identify it, as he saw a man with a high-powered rifle walking around up there. mr. belin. did he say anything else that you could have recorded there? mr. harkness. no, sir. mr. belin. anything else you remember? mr. harkness. except his address. i have his address as hammerly. mr. belin. did he say anything else? mr. harkness. no, sir. mr. belin. is there anything else that happened that day that might in any way be relevant to this investigation? mr. harkness. no, sir. mr. belin. what did you do on saturday? mr. harkness. saturday i was assigned to traffic at elm and houston, between elm and main. mr. belin. is there anything else that you did on saturday or on sunday that might in any way be relevant to this area of inquiry? mr. harkness. on saturday had a large crowd down there, and i observed jack ruby at the entrance of the jail down there on saturday. mr. belin. you saw jack ruby near the entrance of the jail on saturday? mr. harkness. yes, sir. mr. belin. has your statement already been taken by anyone before on the president's commission? mr. harkness. yes, sir. mr. belin. but you did see jack ruby? mr. harkness. i testified in ruby's trial to that effect. mr. belin. anyone else or anything else that might be in any way relevant here? mr. harkness. the only thing, on sunday i was leaving town; going to whitesboro, and my wife and kids, we heard over the radio that oswald had been shot. when i arrived in whitesboro, i called capt. fritz of the dallas police department, and told him that i had seen ruby near the entrance of the county jail the day before, which was a saturday. mr. belin. anything else? mr. harkness. that is all. mr. belin. but did you ever talk to ruby at any time afterwards? mr. harkness. no, sir; not afterwards. mr. belin. did you know ruby at all, or not? mr. harkness. i had met him, and being downtown traffic sergeant, i had seen him before, and i knew who he was, but other than that, that is all. mr. belin. is there any other thing you can think of, whether i have asked it or not, that might in any way be relevant to the investigation of the assassination or the shooting of officer tippit? mr. harkness. no, sir; i don't have anything on that, other than what i heard over the radio. mr. belin. by the way, did your witness ever say whether the person he saw at the window was a white man or negro? mr. harkness. he just told me, he just said he couldn't identify him. that is what he told me. mr. belin. did he tell you whether or not it was a man? mr. harkness. i don't remember, because i knew i couldn't get any information out of him, enough to put out a description on it. mr. belin. anything else? mr. harkness. no, sir. mr. belin. sir, we want to thank you very much for coming down here and testifying. you have an opportunity, if you would like, to come back and read your deposition when it is typed, and sign it, or you can waive reading and signing it and just have the court reporter send the transcript to us directly in washington. if you have any preference, you might let us know. mr. harkness. i have no preference. i just hope i have been able to help you on these directions, because they are complicated to give directions, especially when you try to convince. mr. belin. in any event, do you want to sign or waive signing? you have a right to sign or you can waive the signing of it and send it directly to us, whatever you want to do. mr. harkness. waiver is customary? it doesn't make any difference. mr. belin. some people do one way and some the other way. do you want to come back and read it and sign it, or do you want to waive signing it and let the court reporter send us the transcript direct? mr. harkness. what has most of them been doing? mr. belin. gosh, i have them doing both ways. i couldn't tell you what most have been doing, sir. mr. harkness. i will just waive. testimony of j. herbert sawyer the testimony of j. herbert sawyer was taken at : p.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. david w. belin, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. belin. would you stand and raise your right hand. do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. sawyer. i do. mr. belin. what is your occupation? mr. sawyer. inspector of police. mr. belin. of what police department? mr. sawyer. dallas police department. mr. belin. you live here in dallas? mr. sawyer. yes, sir. mr. belin. inspector, how long have you been with the police department? mr. sawyer. years. mr. belin. that would be then you came to the police department around or so? mr. sawyer. , is right. mr. belin. you have been with them ever since ? mr. sawyer. except for a brief hitch in the service during the war. mr. belin. what did you do in the service? mr. sawyer. i was a yeoman in the navy. mr. belin. honorable discharge? mr. sawyer. yes. mr. belin. prior to going into the service, what did you do? mr. sawyer. policeman. mr. belin. before you went into the service? mr. sawyer. yes. mr. belin. did you go to school here in dallas? mr. sawyer. yes. mr. belin. graduated from high school? mr. sawyer. yes. i didn't graduate. i lacked half a year. mr. belin. then you got out and you went in--did you go right on the police force then? mr. sawyer. no. mr. belin. what did you do? mr. sawyer. i worked as credit manager in a jewelry company. this was immediately prior to coming to the police department. before that, i was a doorman at the mural room of the baker hotel. mr. belin. when you first got out of high school, what did you do? mr. sawyer. i went out to california and went to work as a clerk in a grocery store. mr. belin. what did you do after that? mr. sawyer. came back to dallas and went to business college, and then i went to work as a doorman at the mural room of the baker hotel. and then from there i went to the jewelry, and later became credit manager. mr. belin. and then after that? mr. sawyer. then to the police department. mr. belin. you have been with the police department ever since except for this time in the navy? mr. sawyer. yes. mr. belin. how old are you? mr. sawyer. . mr. belin. you are married? mr. sawyer. yes. mr. belin. inspector, were you on duty on november , ? mr. sawyer. yes. mr. belin. by the way, were you an inspector at that time? mr. sawyer. i was. mr. belin. where were you stationed with reference to the motorcade? just what were your duties? mr. sawyer. i had charge of the crowd detail on main street from akard to harwood. mr. belin. after the motorcade passed, what did you do? mr. sawyer. i headed west on main street. mr. belin. did you immediately get in your car after the motorcade passed? mr. sawyer. well, not immediately, because the crowd was real thick and completely surrounded the car, but i did as soon as it was feasible to get back in the car. mr. belin. do you remember where your car was parked? mr. sawyer. yes. it was parked on ervay street, at the intersection of ervay and main, but it was, well, it was on the north side of main street on ervay. it run parallel to main street. mr. belin. all right, you got in your car shortly after the motorcade passed then? mr. sawyer. yes. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. sawyer. well, i headed west, or tried to. i had to wait until the crowd cleared out, and as soon as the crowd cleared enough, i headed west on main street. mr. belin. any particular reason why you headed west on main street? mr. sawyer. because that was the way the car was pointed at the time i got in. mr. belin. all right, then what did you do as you went west on main street? mr. sawyer. i just went real slow down the street because of people crossing, and at the time, the radio broadcast came in about a lot of activity down at the lower end around houston and elm street. mr. belin. do you remember what radio broadcast this is? who broadcast it? mr. sawyer. i heard sheriff decker come on the radio and tell the dispatcher to get all of his men over to, and i thought he said texas school book depository, but at least that was the overall gist of the conversation. that is what i gathered. he may not have said texas school book depository, but the texas school book depository was mentioned in the broadcasts that were made at that time. mr. belin. was this on channel or channel if you remember? mr. sawyer. channel , i am sure. mr. belin. did sheriff decker have any particular call number at all, or not, in your police number system? mr. sawyer. no. i was wondering why he come on our radio, but then i think that he was with chief curry and probably using that radio. mr. belin. all right, in any event, a call was made from chief curry's car? mr. sawyer. well, this i don't know either. i don't know what car it was made from, but i think it was sheriff decker talking. i could recognize his voice, yes. mr. belin. what did you do then? mr. sawyer. then i went on down to the texas book depository. mr. belin. where did you park your car? mr. sawyer. in front of the texas school book depository. mr. belin. in front of the main entrance there? mr. sawyer. in front of the main entrance. mr. belin. what did you do then? mr. sawyer. immediately went into--well, talked to some of the officers around there who told me the story that they had thought some shots had come from one of the floors in the building, and i think the fifth floor was mentioned, but nobody seemed to know who the shots were directed at or what had actually happened, except there had been a shooting there at the time the president's motorcade had gone by. and i went with a couple of officers and a man who i believed worked in the building. the elevator was just to the right of the main entrance, and we went to the top floor, which was pointed out to me by this other man as being the floor that we were talking about. we had talked about the fifth floor. and we went back to the storage area and looked around and didn't see anything. mr. belin. now you took an elevator up, is that correct? mr. sawyer. that's right. mr. belin. the route that you took to the elevator, you went to the front door? mr. sawyer. right. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. sawyer. we got into the elevator. we run into this man. mr. belin. well, when you say you got into the elevator, where was the elevator as you walked in the front door? mr. sawyer. it was to the right. mr. belin. to the right? mr. sawyer. yes, sir. mr. belin. was it a freight elevator or a passenger elevator? mr. sawyer. the best of my recollection, it was a passenger elevator. mr. belin. did you push for the top button in that elevator? mr. sawyer. well, i don't know who pushed it, but we went up to the top floor. mr. belin. you went up to the top floor that the elevator would go to? mr. sawyer. that's right. mr. belin. you got off, and were there officers there? mr. sawyer. there was one or two other officers with me. mr. belin. now when you got off, you say you went into the back there into a warehouse area? mr. sawyer. storage area; what appeared to be a storage area. mr. belin. did you go into any place other than a warehouse or storage area? mr. sawyer. no. mr. belin. was there anything other than a warehouse or storage area there? mr. sawyer. well, to one side i could see an office over there with people in it. some women that apparently were office workers. mr. belin. now inspector, what did you do then? mr. sawyer. well, i didn't see anything that was out of the ordinary, so i immediately came back downstairs to check the security on the building. mr. belin. when you say check the security on the building, what do you mean by that? mr. sawyer. well, to be sure it was covered off properly, and then posted two men on the front entrance with instructions not to let anyone in or out. mr. belin. what about the rear entrance? mr. sawyer. well, i also had the sergeant go around and check to be sure that all of those were covered, although he told me that they were already covered. mr. belin. when was the order given to cover the front entrance of the building? mr. sawyer. well, they had it covered when i got there. there were officers all around the front. the only thing i don't think had been done by the time i got there, was the instructions not to let anybody in or out. mr. belin. all right, now, did you give the instructions not to let anyone in or out? mr. sawyer. i did. mr. belin. did you give those instructions before or after you came down from the fourth floor or top floor? mr. sawyer. after i got down. mr. belin. so your procedure, if i understand it, was this. you were driving on main street when you heard sheriff decker on the radio? mr. sawyer. yes. mr. belin. inspector, to try and reconstruct the time of sealing off the building, i believe you said that before you got to the building, or at about the time you got to the building, you thought that you heard something about the texas school book depository over the radio? mr. sawyer. right. mr. belin. at least some time before you left your car, is that correct? mr. sawyer. yes; it would have to be, in order to hear it. mr. belin. now, i have with me the transcript of the radio log here of november , and i notice that, according to the log, at : , and you have examined it, there appears there is a statement by chief curry, and then something by sheriff decker concerning, well, we'd better call this sawyer's deposition exhibit a, which is a transcript of the radio log, and it reads right now--we will try and restaple it later on--but right now, page and are reversed insofar as the order is concerned. you see at : p.m., on this exhibit curry calls in that they are near the triple underpass, and then at : p.m., it says, "station break," is that right? mr. sawyer. yes, sir. mr. belin. then the next thing that goes on, it is number , which is chief curry's number, am i correct in that? mr. sawyer. right. mr. belin. then according to the transcript, the statement is made--you might just read it here in front of you: "go to the hospital, officers, parkland hospital, have them stand by. get men on top of the underpass, see what happened up there, go up to the overpass. have parkland stand by." you see these words here, inspector sawyer? mr. sawyer. yes. mr. belin. then on a continuation, "dallas- ," which is marked in by someone as sheriff decker says: "i'm sure it's going to take some time to get your men in there. put every one of my men there." then there is a call back to curry from , which is your home station, is that correct? mr. sawyer. that's right. i really didn't quite understand all of it. mr. belin. then curry is quoted as saying: "notify station to move all men available out of my department back into the railroad yard and try to determine what happened and hold everything secure until homicide and other investigators can get in there." mr. sawyer. that is decker speaking there. mr. belin. that is decker? mr. sawyer. that's right. mr. belin. you believe that is what decker said? mr. sawyer. that is what he said, yes, that's right. mr. belin. all right. mr. sawyer. his number is dallas- , and they are talking to . they have that confused. mr. belin. well, curry is also? mr. sawyer. that's right. mr. belin. but i think they were riding in the same car? mr. sawyer. that might be correct, but this is actually decker's voice here, and that is what he had to say. mr. belin. well, then, the comment is made "notify station ----" mr. sawyer. that is the sheriff's office. mr. belin. "to move all men available out of my department back into the railroad yard----" and that you feel is decker talking because of the reference to station ? mr. sawyer. also, my memory serves that it was his voice that made that. mr. belin. all right, then, at : , is a notation there that quotes, "it looks like the president has been hit." then there doesn't appear to be anything pertaining to where the shots might have come from until we see at : , there is a call from officer, it says no. , that states, "a passer-by states the shots came from texas school book depository building. this is the first reference in the log about the texas school book depository, is that correct? mr. sawyer. that's correct. mr. belin. do you feel that you heard in your car some reference to the texas school book depository building? mr. sawyer. i do. mr. belin. would it be fair for me to assume then that you had not at least completely left your car by : p.m? mr. sawyer. correct. mr. belin. then when you got to the texas school book depository, well, you got out of the car and talked to some people or to some officers? mr. sawyer. officers. mr. belin. and then what did the officers tell you? mr. sawyer. that their information was that the shots had come from the fifth floor of the texas school book depository. mr. belin. did any officers give you any other information about the source of the shots other than the fact that it came from the texas school book depository, at that particular time? mr. sawyer. i can't say whether it was officers or who, but there was a reference also made to the overpass. mr. belin. all right, in any event--pardon me, do you have anything else to add? mr. sawyer. also, there was a broadcast here in the transcript about the railroad yard. mr. belin. all right. mr. sawyer. and this could be part of what i was thinking about, or what i had heard, was this broadcast on the radio about the railroad yard. mr. belin. then what did you do? you went inside the building, is that correct? mr. sawyer. we immediately went inside the building. i took--i believe sgt. harkness may have gone with me. i am not positive of that. mr. belin. was the elevator on the first floor when you got there, or did you have to wait for it to come down? mr. sawyer. best of my recollection, it was there. mr. belin. you got to the elevator, went up, looked around back there. how long did you spend up there at the top floor that the elevator took you to? mr. sawyer. just took a quick look around and made sure there was nobody hiding on that floor. i doubt if it took over a minute at the most. mr. belin. to go up and look around and come down? mr. sawyer. to look around on the floor. how long it took to go up, it couldn't have been over minutes at the most from the time we left, got up and back down. mr. belin. then that would put it around no sooner than : , if you heard the call at : ? mr. sawyer. yes, sir. mr. belin. then you got down and what did you do? mr. sawyer. i asked the sergeant to doublecheck the security around the building, and then i took two patrolmen and stationed them at the front door and told them, with instructions not to let anybody in or out. mr. belin. now up to the time you did this, had anyone else sealed off the building, that you know of? mr. sawyer. when i arrived, the sergeant told me he had the building sealed off. there were officers all around the building. to the best of my recollection, there was no officer actually stationed on the front door, at the front door. there was some on the sidewalk in front of the front door, and also, as far as i know, had no instructions been issued to anyone to let anybody in or out. mr. belin. so yours would have been the first instructions to stop traffic from coming in and out of the front door, am i correct in that? mr. sawyer. that's right. mr. belin. all right, anybody that would have been seen leaving the building would have been stopped and interrogated by the officers that were there? even before you instructed them? mr. sawyer. yes, because they were looking for something or anything, and i know that anybody coming out of the back doors, from what the sergeant told me, they would have stopped them, too. mr. belin. what happened at the front door now. there were people standing out on the area of the steps, were there not? mr. sawyer. no. there were some people around, yes. mr. belin. do you know whether or not any of those would have been stopped? mr. sawyer. for sure, no; i don't. mr. belin. now after you got down and you issued these orders, then what did you do? mr. sawyer. i set up a command post in front. the various officers were bringing up different witnesses who had seen various things, and i saw that this was quite an involved situation. it was so many of these people that had information, that i knew i didn't have time to take this information down, and by this time several deputy sheriffs were standing there, and one of them, i think he was a supervisor, i had his name at one time, i can't think of it now, was there, and he offered the use of an interrogation room of sheriff decker's office, i think he said, for interrogating these people. mr. belin. that is located down the street a little bit there? mr. sawyer. well, it is catty-corner across the street. mr. belin. all right. mr. sawyer. it is southeast across the street from the texas school book depository, at least from the corner, and so we set up a group of officers and deputy sheriffs who were to take charge of the witnesses and take them over to see that affidavits were taken from them. they were more or less an escort service so the witness wouldn't get away. and then as our detectives began to show up, i sent them over to the sheriff's office to assist in taking these depositions or affidavits. mr. belin. how many witnesses were there around there during this period of time that you talked to? mr. sawyer. well, during the entire period of time that i was there, i would venture to say between to different people had come up with information of one kind or another. mr. belin. now, on this radio log, sawyer's deposition exhibit a, do you notice your number there for any calls at all that might have come in? what number did you use? mr. sawyer. i used no. . that is my regular call no. . mr. belin. i notice here a no. , the first time that appears to come in here is at : p.m.; is that right? mr. sawyer. that is the first one after : , sir. mr. belin. the first one after : ? mr. sawyer. the first one after : , yes, that is true. mr. belin. then at : , there is a bunch of calls at : , with the next call number at : , so you assume sometime : and : you, as no. , called in, is that correct? mr. sawyer. that's correct. mr. belin. would you read what it says that you said there? mr. sawyer. "we need more manpower down here at the texas book depository; there should be a bunch on main if somebody can pick them up and bring them down here." mr. belin. was that said before or after you came down from the elevator? mr. sawyer. that was after. mr. belin. was that before or after you told the men there to guard the front door and not let anyone in or out? mr. sawyer. that was after. mr. belin. now the next time that no. appears is at what time? mr. sawyer. immediately after : and before : . mr. belin. what did you say then? mr. sawyer. "the wanted person in this is a slender white male about , feet , , carrying what looks to be a - or some type of winchester." mr. belin. then the statement is made from the home office, "it was a rifle?" mr. sawyer. i answered, "yes, a rifle." mr. belin. then the reply to you, "any clothing description?" mr. sawyer. "current witness can't remember that." mr. belin. then the statement is made sometime before : p.m., and after the : p.m., call, "attention all squads, description was broadcast and no further information at this time." does that mean the description you made was rebroadcast? mr. sawyer. i rebroadcast that description. that is what that means. mr. belin. i then notice on this radio log--i don't see anything more under , at least until after the, well, it is down until we have gone as far as : p.m., i don't see anything else, do you, sir? mr. sawyer. no. there is another broadcast in there somewhere, though. i put out another description on the colored boy that worked in that department. mr. belin. what do you mean the colored boy that worked in that depository? mr. sawyer. he is one that had a previous record in the narcotics, and he was supposed to have been a witness to the man being on that floor. he was supposed to have been a witness to oswald being there. mr. belin. would charles givens have been that boy? mr. sawyer. yes, i think that is the name, and i put out a description on him. mr. belin. how do you know he was supposed to be a witness on that? mr. sawyer. somebody told me that. somebody came to me with the information. and again, that particular party, whoever it was, i don't know. i remember that a deputy sheriff came up to me who had been over taking these affidavits, that i sent them over there, and he came over from the sheriff's office with a picture and a description of this colored boy and he said that he was supposed to have worked at the texas book depository, and he was the one employee who was missing, or he was missing from the building. he wasn't accounted for, and that he was suppose to have some information about the man that did the shooting. mr. belin. when you say about the man who did the shooting, did you know at that time who did the shooting? mr. sawyer. no. mr. belin. do you know about what time in the afternoon this was? mr. sawyer. somewhere along in here; let's see if we can't find it. mr. belin. this doesn't go past : p.m. mr. sawyer. what about your other transcript? mr. belin. i have a transcript of another one here, at least i did have. mr. sawyer. i think we caught the man in the crowd later and sent him down. we sent him directly down to captain fritz's office. mr. belin. well, just a minute now. i see here on no. , you have two channels there. mr. sawyer. this is channel , yes. mr. belin. we will call this sawyer's deposition exhibit b. i see here that you go on at : p.m., with this statement by your no. . you want to read it? mr. sawyer. yes. "from this building it is unknown if he is still there or not. unknown if he was there in the first place." mr. belin. then it reads back here, "all the information we have received, indicates it did come from the fifth or fourth of that building." that is the central headquarters back to you, is that it? mr. sawyer. that's right. mr. belin. that is at least after : p.m., and before : p.m.? mr. sawyer. right. mr. belin. now looking down on this log until the next time your number appears, is : p.m. what does that say? mr. sawyer. "we have found empty rifle hulls on the fifth floor and from all indications the man had been there for some time." mr. belin. then is there anything else? mr. sawyer. this was reported to me by somebody inside the building. mr. belin. that was at : p.m., that the hulls were found, or at least shortly prior to that? this doesn't say anything else. it apparently doesn't go in detail much past : p.m., on sawyer deposition exhibit b, and : p.m., on sawyer's deposition exhibit a. mr. sawyer. that's right. mr. belin. do you still feel sometime after that you might have called out another description? mr. sawyer. it was another, sometime after that, or it has been left out of this. i don't think it has been left out of this, but it must have been after : . mr. belin. all right, now, sir; you did broadcast that description out of this man? mr. sawyer. yes, that's correct. mr. belin. that shows on the radio log. where did you get that description from? mr. sawyer. we are talking now about the colored man? mr. belin. no, i am talking about the one that is on sawyer's deposition exhibit a, that shows you at : . mr. sawyer. that description came to me mainly from one witness who claimed to have seen the rifle barrel in the fifth or sixth floor of the building, and claimed to have been able to see the man up there. mr. belin. do you know this person's name? mr. sawyer. i do not. mr. belin. do you know anything about him, what he was wearing? mr. sawyer. except that he was--i don't remember what he was wearing. i remember that he was a white man and that he wasn't young and he wasn't old. he was there. that is the only two things that i can remember about him. mr. belin. what age would you categorize as young? mr. sawyer. around would be my best recollection of it, but it could be a few years either way. mr. belin. do you remember if he was tall or short, or can't you remember anything about him? mr. sawyer. i can't remember that much about him. i was real hazy about that. mr. belin. do you remember where he said he was standing when he saw the person with the rifle? mr. sawyer. i didn't go into detail with him except that from the best of my recollection, he was standing where he could have seen him. but there were too many people coming up with questions to go into detail. i got the description and sent him on over to the sheriff's office. mr. belin. inspector, do you remember anything else about this person who you say gave you the primary description? mr. sawyer. no, i do not, except that i did send him with an escort to the sheriff's office to give fuller or more complete detail. mr. belin. do you know if he was taken there to see a lineup at the police station? mr. sawyer. no. mr. belin. did you ever see him again? mr. sawyer. not to my knowledge. mr. belin. now, you talked to other people there that said they had some information with regard to where the shots may have come from? mr. sawyer. yes, through a number of people. mr. belin. first i am going to ask you if you talked to any other people who said they saw a rifle or part of a rifle? mr. sawyer. yes. there were a few who claimed that they had seen this. mr. belin. where did these people that claimed they saw a rifle or part of a rifle---- mr. sawyer. the ones that i talked to were pointing out one of the upper floors of the texas school book depository, which at that time i thought was the fifth floor. mr. belin. do you know what portion, what side of the building it was? was it the northeast corner or west side of the building? mr. sawyer. it was on the south side of the building, and in the southeast corner. mr. belin. what about this person, who i will call the primary description witness, did he say what side of the building it was on? mr. sawyer. he went and pointed out the window which i now note to be the sixth floor, but when i talked to him, i thought it was the fifth floor. mr. belin. the fifth floor? mr. sawyer. yes. mr. belin. what side of the building? mr. sawyer. on the south side of the building, and the southeast corner. mr. belin. did you talk to any witness, or did any witness talk to you who claimed to see any rifle or portion of a rifle at any place other than a window of texas school book depository building? mr. sawyer. no, did any---- mr. belin. did any officer give you any information about talking to anyone who saw a rifle or a portion of a rifle at any place other than a window in the texas school book depository building? mr. sawyer. no, not to my knowledge. mr. belin. did you talk to people who attempted to locate the shots on the basis of what i would call their sense of hearing, rather than their sense of sight? in other words, what they heard rather than what they saw? mr. sawyer. correct. that is correct. some of them claimed that they had heard shots, or thought they heard shots from over the overpass. mr. belin. did all the people you talked to say that they heard shots over the overpass? claim they had some knowledge about where the shots came from? did they all say they heard shots from the overpass, or did they say they heard some from other places? mr. sawyer. no. very few said they heard the shots come from the overpass, or thought they heard them from that area. mr. belin. well, where did other people say they heard shots come from? mr. sawyer. most of the people that heard the shots pointed out the texas book depository. mr. belin. did some of the people that heard shots, or thought they heard shots from the texas school book depository, all say they saw a rifle there? mr. sawyer. no. mr. belin. most of them say they saw a rifle there? mr. sawyer. no, just a few, very few. mr. belin. is there anything else you can think of that occurred at the texas school book depository that afternoon while you were there that might have any relevancy about where the shots came from, other than what you have told thus far? mr. sawyer. well, i had heard some of the officers come to me and said there was supposed to be, somebody told them about a woman that had taken some pictures of that window, and then one of the sergeants came to me, and i am not sure who the sergeant is now, but anyway he said that there was on the building immediately west--east, i am sorry--east of the texas school book depository, that a man up in one of the upper windows up there was taking some moving pictures of what had gone on. mr. belin. did you ever contact this man? do you know what his name is? mr. sawyer. no; i don't know his name. the sergeant told me that the man would not give them the pictures, that he was waiting for the secret service or the fbi, i forget which now, and i sent the sergeant and two men back over there with instructions to bring that man and his pictures to me. when they got back over there, forrest sorrels of the secret service was already there, and at least they so reported back to me, and was talking to this man. so i told them to go ahead with their normal assignments and since forrest was already there and talking to him, i knew that that part would be taken care of. mr. belin. you don't know what his name was or what the results of it was? mr. sawyer. i don't know. mr. belin. anything else? mr. sawyer. later that afternoon one of our colored officer detectives saw this colored man in this crowd across the street and we had previously broadcast a description on, and he took him into custody and sent him immediately down to captain fritz' office. mr. belin. he gave a statement, is that it? mr. sawyer. this i don't know. i presume he did, but i didn't stop to talk to him or take any information. i just sent him on down there. mr. belin. anything else you can think of at this time? mr. sawyer. no. mr. belin. you spent most of the afternoon out in front of the building there? mr. sawyer. i spent most of the afternoon up until o'clock. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. sawyer. i went back down to the city hall and checked around there to see if anything further i could do, and then i went home. mr. belin. what did you do on saturday, the d? anything that has to do with the assassination or the investigation of the tippit murder? mr. sawyer. no. i happened to be off on saturday, and i didn't go back down. the boss didn't call me, so i stayed home. mr. belin. what about sunday? mr. sawyer. same thing. in fact, i didn't even hear about the other thing until way late in the afternoon. mr. belin. is there any other information that you can think of, whether i have asked it or not, that might be in any way relevant here? mr. sawyer. the only other thing i can remember that i did down there, was when the shooting on officer tippit came in, i released half a dozen men to go to oak cliff to help with that. mr. belin. inspector, is there anything else that you can think of, whether i have asked it or not, that is in any way relevant here? mr. sawyer. i can't think of anything. mr. belin. sir, we certainly appreciate your cooperation in coming down here. you have a right, if you would like, after this report is typewritten, to read it and sign it before it is sent to us, or you can waive the reading of it and have it sent to us directly. it doesn't make a bit of difference to us. mr. sawyer. whichever you prefer. it doesn't make any difference to me. i would like to read it. mr. belin. why don't we say you read it and sign it, and it will be sent to us. mr. sawyer. okay. testimony of gerald dalton henslee the testimony of gerald dalton henslee was taken at p.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. david w. belin, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. belin. sergeant, do you want to stand and raise your right hand, please, to be sworn. do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. henslee. i do. mr. belin. will you please state your name. mr. henslee. gerald dalton henslee. mr. belin. your occupation? mr. henslee. a police officer. mr. belin. for what police department? mr. henslee. city of dallas. mr. belin. how long have you been a police officer? mr. henslee. years. mr. belin. you are a sergeant now? mr. henslee. sergeant. mr. belin. what did you do before you became a police officer? mr. henslee. i was a student in smu. mr. belin. at smu? mr. henslee. yes. mr. belin. prior to that time? mr. henslee. i was a dance instructor at the arthur murray dance studio. mr. belin. and prior to that? mr. henslee. i was in the united states army. mr. belin. honorable discharge, sir? mr. henslee. yes. mr. belin. how old are you? mr. henslee. . mr. belin. married? mr. henslee. yes. mr. belin. sergeant, what were your duties on november , ? mr. henslee. i was supervising the radio dispatcher's office at the dallas police department. mr. belin. could you just describe your duties there as to what they included? mr. henslee. well, in this instance, i was not only supervising the channel radio and the incoming radio calls, but was the police dispatcher for channel , covering the special event of the arrival of the president of the united states, president kennedy. mr. belin. what were your hours of work that day? mr. henslee. my assigned hours? mr. belin. yes. mr. henslee. : until p.m. : a.m. until : p.m. mr. belin. did you stay on after that? mr. henslee. i stayed until about : , as i recall, approximately. mr. belin. you mentioned channel . how many channels do you have? mr. henslee. two channels. mr. belin. was channel being used for the motorcade that day? mr. henslee. yes. mr. belin. i am going to hand you what has been marked sawyer deposition exhibit a, and ask you to state if you know what this is? mr. henslee. yes. this is a transcript of the radio log of that date. mr. belin. for what channel? mr. henslee. channel . mr. belin. covering from? mr. henslee. from : a.m., until : p.m. mr. belin. now i notice on the covering page it says that: "the following was recorded on channel , from a.m. to p.m. this report includes information prior to the arrival of the president's plane, progress of the motorcade, the shooting, and the escort to parkland hospital. also included are events concerning the shooting of officer tippit." mr. henslee. that is correct. mr. belin. have you attempted to cover all calls that occurred that day or just the calls pertaining to the subject matter that is included in the covering paragraph. mr. henslee. pertaining to the subject matter, to the covering paragraph only. mr. belin. all right, i hand you what has been marked sawyer deposition exhibit b, and ask you to state if you know what this is? mr. henslee. yes. mr. belin. what is sawyer deposition exhibit b? mr. henslee. that is a transmission pertaining to the shooting of president kennedy and officer tippit on channel . mr. belin. all right, i notice times on sawyer deposition exhibits a and b. does this mean a time according to your police clock there when an event happened? mr. henslee. yes, sir. mr. belin. for instance, on sawyer deposition exhibit a, i see until : p.m., a number of conversations. then the next one is : p.m. does that mean that all the conversations took place between : and : p.m.? mr. henslee. that's correct. mr. belin. they took place in the order in which they are listed here? mr. henslee. right. there were so many, we couldn't get the time in after each transmission. mr. belin. who prepared sawyer deposition exhibits a and b, if you know? mr. henslee. well, i am pretty sure these are the ones i prepared. they are copies of them. mr. belin. do you know from what source they were prepared? mr. henslee. they were prepared from the tapes on the channel . we have a tape on channel , and we have a record on channel . two separate tape records, but they are prepared from those records and tapes. mr. belin. under your supervision? mr. henslee. yes, sir. mr. belin. i notice numbers here. for instance, i see on sawyer deposition exhibit a, the no. often appears. would that be your call number? mr. henslee. this designates the radio dispatcher. mr. belin. then i see the number here, no. sometimes appears. who is that? mr. henslee. that is the number assigned to chief j. e. curry. mr. belin. i see a no. . who is no. ? mr. henslee. that is the number assigned to inspector j. h. sawyer. mr. belin. different numbers are assigned to different people? mr. henslee. yes. mr. belin. if an officer is patrolling a district, does he have the number assigned to a district if he is not a high officer in the department? mr. henslee. that's correct. mr. belin. for instance, i see the no. here. does that appear to be the number of j. d. tippit? mr. henslee. on that particular day it was. mr. belin. all right, anything else you can think of, sergeant, that might be relevant to the investigation into the assassination of the president or the shooting of officer tippit? mr. henslee. no. the only thing i have is what i observed over the police radio that day. that is all the knowledge i have at all. mr. belin. all right, sir; we thank you very much for your cooperation. one other thing, you have the right to read this deposition and sign it before it goes into washington, or else you can waive the reading and have it go directly to washington. do you have any preference? mr. henslee. yes, i would like to read it before i sign it. mr. belin. that is all right. it makes no difference to us. and again, we thank you. mr. henslee. what else can i do for you? testimony of william h. shelley the testimony of william h. shelley was taken at : p.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by messrs. joseph a. ball and samuel a. stern, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. ball. will you hold up your right hand and be sworn? (witness complying.) mr. ball. do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give here today will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. shelley. yes. mr. ball. sit down and state your name and your address. mr. shelley. william hoyt (spelling) shelley, south tatum, dallas . mr. ball. will you tell me something about yourself, where you were born and---- mr. shelley. i was born at gunter, tex. mr. ball. what is your education? mr. shelley. high school. mr. ball. what have you been doing since then? mr. shelley. i worked in defense plants a little bit during the war and started working at the texas school book depository october , . mr. ball. (after leaving room for last answer, mr. ball returns.) did you tell her all about yourself? mr. shelley. you wanted to know when i was born. mr. ball. you told us that, and you had your high school education? mr. shelley. yes. mr. ball. what kind of work have you done since then? mr. shelley. i've told her. mr. ball. how long have you worked at texas school book depository? mr. shelley. she already has it, october , . mr. ball. october , --steady since that date? mr. shelley. oh, yes. mr. ball. in november , what was your job down there? mr. shelley. well, i am manager of the miscellaneous department and have been for several years. mr. ball. who is your immediate superior? mr. shelley. roy s. truly. mr. ball. what is his job? mr. shelley. he is superintendent of the place. mr. ball. did you know lee oswald? mr. shelley. he worked for me. mr. ball. what kind of work did he do for you? mr. shelley. he did good work. mr. ball. what? mr. shelley. he did good work. mr. ball. what was it? mr. shelley. order filling. mr. ball. as an order filler did he have access to any more than one floor? mr. shelley. oh, yes. mr. ball. how many floors? mr. shelley. just about any of them outside the offices. mr. ball. were there certain floors that he worked more upon which he worked more frequently than other floors? mr. shelley. the first floor is where all the order filling is done; the th, th, th floor are used for storage and when they need stock on the first floor anybody goes up and gets it. mr. ball. so he would work mostly on the first floor and sometimes on , , and , is that what you mean? mr. shelley. yes. mr. ball. did you ever talk to him? mr. shelley. not too much; he wasn't too talkative. if i had something i wanted him to do, i would tell him and he usually did it. mr. ball. his work was satisfactory? mr. shelley. yes. mr. ball. on the d of november , did you see him come to work that morning? mr. shelley. no, he was at work when i got there already filling orders. mr. ball. did you see him from time to time during that day? mr. shelley. i am sure i did. i do remember seeing him when i came down to eat lunch about to . mr. ball. where had you been working? mr. shelley. i had been on the sixth floor with the boys laying that floor that morning. mr. ball. what time did you go down and eat lunch? mr. shelley. it was around 'til. mr. ball. did you eat your lunch? mr. shelley. no, i started eating. mr. ball. where did you start eating it? mr. shelley. in my office next to mr. truly's and i ate part of it which i do usually and finish up later on in the day but i went outside then to the front. mr. ball. why did you go to the front? mr. shelley. oh, several people were out there waiting to watch the motorcade and i went out to join them. mr. ball. and who was out there? mr. shelley. well, there was lloyd viles of mcgraw-hill, sarah stanton, she's with texas school book, and wesley frazier and billy lovelady joined us shortly afterwards. mr. ball. you were standing where? mr. shelley. just outside the glass doors there. mr. ball. that would be on the top landing of the entrance? mr. shelley. yes. mr. ball. did you see the motorcade pass? mr. shelley. yes. mr. ball. what did you hear? mr. shelley. well, i heard something sounded like it was a firecracker and a slight pause and then two more a little bit closer together. mr. ball. and then? mr. shelley. i didn't think anything about it. mr. ball. what did it sound like to you? mr. shelley. sounded like a miniature cannon or baby giant firecracker, wasn't real loud. mr. ball. what happened; what did you do then? mr. shelley. i didn't do anything for a minute. mr. ball. what seemed to be the direction or source of the sound? mr. shelley. sounded like it came from the west. mr. ball. it sounded like it came from the west? mr. shelley. yes. mr. ball. then what happened? mr. shelley. gloria calvary from south-western publishing co. ran back up there crying and said "the president has been shot" and billy lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute. mr. ball. across the street, you mean directly south? mr. shelley. yes, slightly to the right, you know where the light is there? mr. ball. yes. mr. shelley. that little, old side street runs in front of our building and elm street. mr. ball. it dead ends? mr. shelley. there's concrete between the two streets. mr. ball. elm street dead ends there just beyond the building, doesn't it? mr. shelley. well, that's also elm that goes under the triple underpass. mr. ball. that is elm that goes under the triple underpass? mr. shelley. yes. mr. ball. you went to the concrete between the two elm streets? mr. shelley. yes, where they split. mr. ball. you went out there and then what did you do? mr. shelley. well, officers started running down to the railroad yards and billy and i walked down that way. mr. ball. how did you get down that way; what course did you take? mr. shelley. we walked down the middle of the little street. mr. ball. the dead-end street? mr. shelley. yes. mr. ball. did you see truly, mr. truly and an officer go into the building? mr. shelley. yeah, we saw them right at the front of the building while we were on the island. mr. ball. while you were out there before you walked to the railroad yards? mr. shelley. yes. mr. ball. do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw truly and baker going into the building? mr. shelley. it would have to be or minutes i would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the president was hit. mr. ball. she ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there? mr. shelley. yes. mr. ball. going to watch the rest of the parade were you? mr. shelley. yes. mr. ball. the vice president hadn't gone by, had he, by your place? mr. shelley. i don't know. i didn't recognize him. i did recognize mr. kennedy and his suntan i had been hearing about. mr. ball. how did you happen to see truly? mr. shelley. we ran out on the island while some of the people that were out watching it from our building were walking back and we turned around and we saw an officer and truly. mr. ball. and truly? mr. shelley. yes. mr. ball. did you see them go into the building? mr. shelley. no; we didn't watch that long but they were at the first step like they were fixin' to go in. mr. ball. were they moving at the time, walking or running? mr. shelley. well, they were moving, yes. mr. ball. were they running? mr. shelley. that, i couldn't swear to; there were so many people around. mr. ball. what did you and billy lovelady do? mr. shelley. we walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end. mr. ball. at the west end? mr. shelley. yes; and then in the side door into the shipping room. mr. ball. when you came into the shipping room did you see anybody? mr. shelley. i saw eddie piper. mr. ball. what was he doing? mr. shelley. he was coming back from where he was watching the motorcade in the southwest corner of the shipping room. mr. ball. of the first floor of the building? mr. shelley. yes. mr. ball. who else did you see? mr. shelley. that's all we saw immediately. mr. ball. did you ever see vickie adams? mr. shelley. i saw her that day but i don't remember where i saw her. mr. ball. you don't remember whether you saw her when you came back? mr. shelley. it was after we entered the building. mr. ball. you think you did see her after you entered the building? mr. shelley. yes, sir; i thought it was on the fourth floor awhile after that. mr. ball. now, did the police come into the building? mr. shelley. yes, sir; they started coming in pretty fast. mr. ball. did you go with them any place? mr. shelley. yes; mr. truly left me guarding the elevator, not to let anybody up and down the elevator or stairway and some plainclothesmen came in; i don't know whether they were secret service or fbi or what but they wanted me to take them upstairs, so we went up and started searching the various floors. mr. ball. did you go up on the sixth floor? mr. shelley. yes, sir. mr. ball. were you there when they found anything up there? mr. shelley. i was, i believe i was on the sixth floor when they found the gun but we were searching all parts of that floor. mr. ball. now, did you find any chicken bones up there or see any? mr. shelley. yes, i went up later on that day; i believe after we had gotten back from city hall with someone, i don't remember who it was, one of the officers and they got them. mr. ball. they did what? mr. shelley. they got the bones. mr. ball. where were they? mr. shelley. they were on the third--yeah, it would be the third window from the southeast corner. mr. ball. and were they in a sack? mr. shelley. laying on a sack. mr. ball. laying on a sack. mr. shelley. yes, sir; with a coke bottle sitting in the window. mr. ball. did you see any other chicken bones anyplace around there? mr. shelley. no, sir; that's all. mr. ball. that's the only ones? mr. shelley. that's all. mr. ball. did you see anybody eating fried chicken on that floor that morning? mr. shelley. at one time i think i said i did but charles givens was the guy that was eating and he was further on over toward the west side and he was eating a sandwich so he says. mr. ball. now you say that you thought that you had seen someone had eaten fried chicken that morning? mr. shelley. i thought i had; those colored boys are always eating chicken. mr. ball. do you think you did or do you know? mr. shelley. i asked charles givens whether it was him that was eating and he said it was a sandwich. mr. ball. was that before you went down for lunch? mr. shelley. yes, sir; it was pretty early in the morning, about : . mr. ball. where was it? mr. shelley. it was two-thirds across the building toward the west because i didn't put plywood over there and he didn't get too far from where we were actually working. mr. ball. after you heard these noises you said sounded like firecrackers this girl came up and said the president was shot? mr. shelley. yeah. mr. ball. you were still standing there? mr. shelley. yes, sir. mr. ball. there was still some time lapse from the time you heard the noise like a firecracker and she came up? mr. shelley. yes. mr. ball. then you went out across elm? mr. shelley. yes, to the divider. mr. ball. between the two elm streets? mr. shelley. yes. mr. ball. the one street dead ends and the other street that goes on down under the viaduct? mr. shelley. yes. mr. ball. did you run out to the point or walk out? mr. shelley. i believe we trotted out there. mr. ball. did you stay very long? mr. shelley. oh, it wasn't very long. mr. ball. how long? mr. shelley. maybe a minute or two. mr. ball. and that's the place you saw truly and baker, you say, going into the building? mr. shelley. yes, uh-huh. mr. ball. then you went down the elm street that dead ends to the first railroad track? mr. shelley. yes. mr. ball. that's about what distance? mr. shelley. approximately yards. mr. ball. did you trot, run or walk? mr. shelley. we were walking but it was a pretty fast walk. mr. ball. did you stay there any length of time? mr. shelley. not very long. mr. ball. how long would you say? mr. shelley. i wouldn't say over a minute or minute and a half. mr. ball. then you went back to the building? mr. shelley. yes. mr. ball. did you trot or run back to the building? mr. shelley. we just walked back; took our good, old easy time more or less. mr. ball. then you went into the west end? mr. shelley. yes. mr. ball. did you see vickie adams after you came into the building and did you see her on the first floor? mr. shelley. i sure don't remember. mr. ball. you don't. mr. shelley. no. mr. ball. did oswald use a clipboard? mr. shelley. yes, sir. mr. ball. on which he kept his orders? mr. shelley. yes. mr. ball. is it a clipboard you gave him to use or one---- mr. shelley. it's one he picked up. mr. ball. picked up where? mr. shelley. just laying around. mr. ball. there are clipboards that the order fillers use there? mr. shelley. yeah, some of them are on bakelite and some we just use a clip and maybe a piece of cardboard. mr. ball. did he use the same one at all times? mr. shelley. yes; as far as i know. mr. ball. now at a later time do you remember a clipboard being found? mr. shelley. yes, sir. mr. ball. do you know who found it? mr. shelley. frankie kaiser. mr. ball. where did he find it? mr. shelley. he found it on the sixth floor in the corner of the stairway. mr. ball. did he show you the place? mr. shelley. yes. mr. ball. point it out to you? mr. shelley. yes; so i invited mr. pinkston---- mr. ball. mr. who? mr. shelley. pinkston of the fbi. mr. ball. did he come out and get the clipboard? mr. shelley. yes; he got it. mr. ball. but frankie kaiser pointed it out to you, did he? mr. shelley. yes, sir. mr. ball. and you called the fbi and pointed it out to him? mr. shelley. he was down there at the time and i told him about it and he and frankie and i went up and got it. mr. ball. do you know what date? mr. shelley. no, sir; that, i sure couldn't tell you. it was the following week though, i am pretty sure. mr. ball. you mean after the d, the following, you say, the d of november? mr. shelley. yes, sir. mr. ball. did you examine that clipboard? mr. shelley. no, sir. mr. ball. did you examine it to see whether or not there was on the clipboard any orders? mr. shelley. yes, sir. mr. ball. unfilled orders? mr. shelley. yes, sir; there were some invoices on it. mr. ball. were you able to identify those invoices and state to whom they had been assigned to fill? mr. shelley. they were scott, foresman invoices. mr. ball. scott, foresman invoices? mr. shelley. yes, sir; and he filled mostly scott, foresman orders. mr. ball. who is "he"? mr. shelley. oswald. mr. ball. oswald filled mostly scott, foresman orders? mr. shelley. yes. mr. ball. that is foresman [spelling]? mr. shelley. foresman [spelling]. mr. ball. was there any other order filler who filled scott, foresman invoices? mr. shelley. any of the other boys would if they ran out of other publishers' orders. when i get those orders, i sort them according to publishers and during rush season like that, usually, have one guy sticking as close to one publisher as he can because skipping back and forth you have different codes and everything and it is confusing to them. mr. ball. so, in the morning would you have assigned all scott, foresman to oswald on that friday morning? mr. shelley. he already had the orders and was working when i got there. mr. ball. he had? mr. shelley. yes. mr. ball. who would determine what orders they would get? mr. shelley. when we run out of orders they get to one of the boxes and get orders for scott, foresman. he had been trained for scott, foresman. mr. ball. would orders be assigned the day before? mr. shelley. no, sir; we don't definitely assign them to anyone. the boys know what they can fill best and as long as they are putting the work out---- mr. ball. i want to know how a man working on scott, foresman--suppose oswald came to work on friday morning, tell me what routine he would follow, where he would get the orders he was to fill. mr. shelley. he would go over to the order desk and get them out of a box marked scott, foresman. mr. ball. they would have scott, foresman on it? mr. shelley. yes. mr. ball. is he the only one that in the morning when he came to work would get the orders out of the box marked scott, foresman? mr. shelley. no, sir; if there wasn't any orders in any of the other boxes any other order filler would take them. mr. ball. do you know whether or not he was filling scott, foresman orders that day? mr. shelley. no, sir; not for sure. mr. ball. do you know whether anybody else was filling scott, foresman orders that day? mr. shelley. i am sure they were; that's our biggest publishers; there's more of them. mr. ball. then you believe others besides oswald were filling scott, foresman orders that day? mr. shelley. probably were. mr. ball. is there any way you can determine what order filler had that clipboard? mr. shelley. no, sir. mr. ball. on november , ? mr. shelley. no, sir; it's one that looked like the one he had used. mr. ball. it did look like the one he had used? mr. shelley. yes, sir. mr. ball. there were how many unfilled orders on that clipboard when it was found? mr. shelley. two or three, best i remember. mr. ball. did you keep a list of them? mr. shelley. no, sir. mr. ball. did anybody make a list of them? mr. shelley. not unless mr. pinkston did. mr. ball. mr. pinkston of the fbi? mr. shelley. yes; he called in about the thing and in a little while he released it and said go ahead and fill the orders which we did because they were several days old. mr. ball. you mean those orders that were on that clipboard had never been filled? mr. shelley. no, sir. mr. ball. so you went ahead and filled them? mr. shelley. yes. mr. ball. how do you spell his name--pinkston? mr. shelley. i don't know how to spell it. mr. pinkston is all i know. mr. ball. pinkston, okay. i think that's all, mr. shelley. thanks very much. this will be written up and you can come down and read it and sign it or we can waive signature; which would you rather do? mr. shelley. i suppose it doesn't make any difference. what are the others doing? mr. ball. some waived, some insist on reading it; which would you rather do? mr. shelley. i would kind of like to see it for curiosity. mr. ball. come down and sign it, all right. where was the clipboard found? mr. shelley. on the sixth floor in the far corner. mr. ball. which corner? mr. shelley. by the stairway. mr. ball. that would be the northwest? mr. shelley. northwest, yes, sir. mr. ball. all right, fine. thank you very much, mr. shelley. testimony of nat a. pinkston the testimony of nat a. pinkston was taken at : p.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. joseph a. ball, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. ball. do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. pinkston. i do. mr. ball. state your name, please. mr. pinkston. nat a. pinkston. mr. ball. what is your occupation? mr. pinkston. i'm a special agent with the federal bureau of investigation. mr. ball. have you had your deposition taken before this proceeding? mr. pinkston. no, sir. mr. ball. your address is what? mr. pinkston. my residence address is van cleave drive, dallas. mr. ball. and how long have you been a special agent for the federal bureau of investigation? mr. pinkston. be years next month. mr. ball. and you are assigned to what office? mr. pinkston. dallas, tex. mr. ball. now, you did not receive a letter from the commission asking you to testify, did you? mr. pinkston. no, sir. mr. ball. you were asked to come over here by mr. shanklin? mr. pinkston. yes. mr. ball. at my request, wasn't it? mr. pinkston. well, i---- mr. ball. anyway, you were asked to come over here by mr. shanklin and he advised you that your deposition would be taken at that time? mr. pinkston. yes. mr. ball. the deposition taken in the course of an investigation by the commission to investigate the facts concerning the circumstances surrounding the assassination of president kennedy, and i am a staff officer. my name is joseph a. ball. i am authorized to administer the oath to you and to ask you certain questions concerning some matters which you do have knowledge of. mr. pinkston. yes, sir. mr. ball. you are willing to testify, are you not? mr. pinkston. yes, sir. mr. ball. in the course of your investigation, were you called to the texas school book depository sometimes around the d of december ? mr. pinkston. yes, sir. mr. ball. and who asked you to come down there? mr. pinkston. i was instructed by one of my supervisors to conduct an investigation there on that date. mr. ball. on that date? mr. pinkston. yes, sir. mr. ball. did you see a fellow by the name of frankie kaiser? mr. pinkston. yes, sir. mr. ball. and roy truly? mr. pinkston. yes, sir. mr. ball. what did they tell you when you came down there? mr. pinkston. to the best of my recollection i was there waiting to see mr. truly. he was somewhere else in the building, and i was waiting for him on the occasion in question. frankie kaiser came down the stairs and said that he had found something on the sixth floor. i didn't--i then accompanied him back to the sixth floor where he pointed out on the floor near the entrance to the stair well, a clipboard with some orders on it, and--pardon me a second, do you want me to testify to what kaiser told me, which is hearsay---- mr. ball. that is all right, but kaiser told you that when you were downstairs, that something--didn't he? when he was--did kaiser come downstairs? mr. pinkston. yes; kaiser came downstairs and took me back upstairs with him and pointed out the clipboard which he had left on the floor. mr. ball. did he say he had left it there? mr. pinkston. he had seen it there and did not bother it. mr. ball. i see. mr. pinkston. he did not put it there. mr. ball. i see. kaiser told you and you went upstairs and kaiser pointed out the clipboard? mr. pinkston. yes, sir. mr. ball. first, the location of the clipboard. mr. pinkston. the clipboard was generally in the northwest corner of the sixth floor of the texas school book depository. it was on the floor behind the books, against the wall of the stair well. mr. ball. there were some book cartons in front of it, were there? mr. pinkston. yes. mr. ball. now, did frankie kaiser say something? that is hearsay, but i would like to hear what it was. mr. pinkston. he told me this clipboard was the one that he had made, and had given to oswald when oswald went to work at the school book depository. mr. ball. did you examine the clipboard? mr. pinkston. i did, sir. mr. ball. did it have anybody's name on it? mr. pinkston. it had quite a bit of scribbling on it, and i believe--well, i am not in a position to say right now exactly what it had on it other than some orders. mr. ball. it did have some orders on it? mr. pinkston. yes, sir. mr. ball. and did you examine the orders? mr. pinkston. yes, sir. mr. ball. can you tell me the date of the orders and the general description of the orders? mr. pinkston. three orders on this clipboard. each order was dated november d. the first was an order from mrs. hazel carroll of the reading clinic, smu, for one parliamentary procedure at $ . . was published by scott, foresman & co. and this invoice bore no. . the second one was an order from dallas independent school district from mr. m. j. morton, purchasing agent, at the school administration building, ross avenue, dallas, tex., for ers, basic reading skills, for high schools, revised, at $ . , or total of $ . . published by scott, foresman & co. the invoice was no. . the third order was an order to be sent to mr. m. k. baker, junior high school, reynosa, new mex., for one te basic reading skills. j. h. s. use. no charge. sent at the request of miss mary williams. publisher; scott, foresman & co., invoice . each of these orders, as i say, were dated november , . mr. ball. what did you do when you--with the orders after you made these notations? mr. pinkston. i turned them over to mr. truly. he desired to fill the orders. mr. ball. what did you do with the clipboard? mr. pinkston. i returned the clipboard to my office and made an exhibit of it, as i recall. mr. ball. is it still an exhibit? it is an fbi exhibit? mr. pinkston. i believe so. mr. ball. in the possession of the fbi? mr. pinkston. i haven't seen it since then. mr. ball. will you try to determine if you still have that as an exhibit in your office, or in washington? mr. pinkston. yes. mr. ball. all right. now, this will be written up and will be submitted to you for your signature, or you can waive your signature. mr. pinkston. i would like to---- mr. ball. see it and read it? mr. pinkston. see it and read it and sign it. mr. ball. you will be notified to come to this office and read it and sign it. (after the conclusion of the deposition and at o'clock, p.m., on the same day as the taking of the deposition, mr. nat a. pinkston appeared before me, iris leonard, stating that he wished the following statement to be incorporated with his deposition: "after reviewing my records, i am now able to state definitely that after examining the clipboard and the orders thereon, i left them at the texas school book depository with mr. truly. the clipboard was picked up by another fbi agent at a later time and was made an exhibit.") testimony of billy nolan lovelady the testimony of billy nolan lovelady was taken at : p.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by messrs. joseph a. ball and samuel a. stern, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. ball. will you please stand, hold up your right hand and be sworn? mr. ball. do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. lovelady. i do. mr. ball. state your name, please. mr. lovelady. billy nolan lovelady. mr. ball. you received a letter from the commission, didn't you? mr. lovelady. yes, sir. mr. ball. you know the purpose of the investigation? mr. lovelady. right. mr. ball. can you tell me something about yourself, where you were born and what your education was and your experience, in general? mr. lovelady. well, i was born at myrtle springs, tex., , february , and lived there for about years until i went into the service and i did nursery work and that's about all there is, farm work down there and nursery and stuff like that. mr. ball. when did you go to work for texas school book depository? mr. lovelady. december , , i believe it was. mr. ball. what kind of work did you do there? mr. lovelady. well, they hired me when i went there as a truck driver, drove truck until another job as stockman was open, taking care of the stock that comes in, see that it's put in the right place. mr. ball. which one of the buildings do you work in? mr. lovelady. at the one at elm. mr. ball. on november , , where were you working? mr. lovelady. at that morning, you mean? mr. ball. yes. mr. lovelady. i was working on the sixth floor putting--we was putting down that flooring. mr. ball. who were you working with? mr. lovelady. well, there was bonnie ray williams and danny arce and slim, charles givens; we call him slim, and let me see, well mr. shelley would come up every once in while, check on us. he wasn't workin' with us but he would come up see how we gettin' along. mr. ball. that's mr. shelley? mr. lovelady. mr. bill shelley. mr. ball. what is his position with texas school book depository? mr. lovelady. he would be under mr. r. s. truly. mr. ball. is he a foreman? mr. lovelady. i guess you would call it that. he takes care of most things down there, paperwork and stuff like that. mr. ball. did you know lee oswald? mr. lovelady. well just to work with him. mr. ball. did you ever talk to him? mr. lovelady. well, i never did carry on any long conversations or anything like that, maybe, you know, "hello," or i asked him a few times how his little baby was getting along; he told me it was doing fine. mr. ball. where did oswald work in the building? mr. lovelady. well, he had access to all the building just like i do. mr. ball. all floors? mr. lovelady. all floors. mr. ball. any floor? mr. lovelady. any floor; i mean he didn't have no business in the office. i mean, or to if, say, like mr. truly would say "okay, lee, go up and give me a certain something from the office," he could go up there. mr. ball. did he work on one floor more than any other? mr. lovelady. no; i wouldn't say because there's different publishers on each order and he has to go to different floors to get books. mr. ball. did oswald ever eat lunch with you? mr. lovelady. he ate two or three times in that little domino room, but not by himself, with the rest of the boys. mr. ball. did you see him come to work that morning? mr. lovelady. no, sir. mr. ball. did you ever see him carry a sack or anything in his hand? mr. lovelady. no, sir; just lunch. mr. ball. did he usually carry his lunch or did he buy his lunch? mr. lovelady. most of the time he had fruit and stuff like that, grapes and raisins, stuff like that i noticed a few times he had. mr. ball. what time did you quit work that day or knock off for lunch that day? mr. lovelady. same time, . mr. ball. a little before ? mr. lovelady. well, we came down at minutes til to wash up and get ready for it. mr. ball. did you come down the elevator? mr. lovelady. right. mr. ball. who did you go down with? mr. lovelady. let me see, i think it was bonnie ray williams on the side i was; i believe so. mr. ball. were you having a race with the other boys? mr. lovelady. yes, sir; sure was. mr. ball. did you see anything or hear anything of oswald on the way down? mr. lovelady. yes; he was on the opposite side of the elevator i was on. i heard him holler to one of the boys to stop, he wanted the elevator. they said, "no; we're going down to lunch," and closed the gate i was on and come down and got ready to watch the president come by or got ready to go to lunch, and that's the last i heard of him. mr. ball. you were on the west elevator? mr. lovelady. right. mr. ball. oswald was standing in front of the east elevator? mr. lovelady. east, on back, the elevator back. mr. ball. did you see him? mr. lovelady. no; i didn't; i just heard his voice because--where those slats are in back of the elevator. mr. ball. did you ever see him again that day? mr. lovelady. no. mr. ball. what did you do after you went down and washed up; what did you do? mr. lovelady. well, i went over and got my lunch and went upstairs and got a coke and come on back down. mr. ball. upstairs on what floor? mr. lovelady. that's on the second floor; so, i started going to the domino room where i generally went in to set down and eat and nobody was there and i happened to look on the outside and mr. shelley was standing outside with miss sarah stanton, i believe her name is, and i said, "well, i'll go out there and talk with them, sit down and eat my lunch out there, set on the steps," so i went out there. mr. ball. you ate your lunch on the steps? mr. lovelady. yes, sir. mr. ball. who was with you? mr. lovelady. bill shelley and sarah stanton, and right behind me---- mr. ball. what was that last name? mr. lovelady. stanton. mr. ball. what is the first name? mr. lovelady. bill shelley. mr. ball. and stanton's first name? mr. lovelady. miss sarah stanton. mr. ball. did you stay on the steps? mr. lovelady. yes. mr. ball. were you there when the president's motorcade went by? mr. lovelady. right. mr. ball. did you hear anything? mr. lovelady. yes, sir; sure did. mr. ball. what did you hear? mr. lovelady. i thought it was firecrackers or somebody celebrating the arrival of the president. it didn't occur to me at first what had happened until this gloria came running up to us and told us the president had been shot. mr. ball. who was this girl? mr. lovelady. gloria calvary. mr. ball. gloria calvary? mr. lovelady. yes. mr. ball. where does she work? mr. lovelady. southwestern publishing co. mr. ball. where was the direction of the sound? mr. lovelady. right there around that concrete little deal on that knoll. mr. ball. that's where it sounded to you? mr. lovelady. yes, sir; to my right. i was standing as you are going down the steps, i was standing on the right, sounded like it was in that area. mr. ball. from the underpass area? mr. lovelady. between the underpass and the building right on that knoll. mr. ball. i have got a picture here, commission exhibit . are you on that picture? mr. lovelady. yes, sir. mr. ball. take a pen or pencil and mark an arrow where you are. mr. lovelady. where i thought the shots are? mr. ball. no; you in the picture. mr. lovelady. oh, here (indicating). mr. ball. draw an arrow down to that; do it in the dark. you got an arrow in the dark and one in the white pointing toward you. where were you when the picture was taken? mr. lovelady. right there at the entrance of the building standing on the top of the step, would be here (indicating). mr. ball. you were standing on which step? mr. lovelady. it would be your top level. mr. ball. the top step you were standing there? mr. lovelady. right. mr. ball. now, when gloria came up you were standing near mr. shelley? mr. lovelady. yeah. mr. ball. when gloria came up and said the president had been shot, gloria calvary, what did you do? mr. lovelady. well, i asked who told her. she said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or--she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was and so the crowd had started towards the railroad tracks back, you know, behind our building there and we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street. we went as far as the first tracks and everybody was hollering and crying and policemen started running out that way and we said we better get back into the building, so we went back into the west entrance on the back dock had that low ramp and went into the back dock back inside the building. mr. ball. first of all, let's get you to tell us whom you left the steps with. mr. lovelady. mr. shelley. mr. ball. shelley and you went down how far? mr. lovelady. well, i would say a good , between to yards to the first tracks. see how those tracks goes---- mr. ball. you went down the dead end on elm? mr. lovelady. yes. mr. ball. and down to the first tracks? mr. lovelady. yes. mr. ball. did you see anything there? mr. lovelady. no sir; well, just people running. mr. ball. that's all? mr. lovelady. and hollerin. mr. ball. how did you happen to go down there? mr. lovelady. i don't know, because everybody was running from that way and naturally, i guess---- mr. ball. they were running from that way or toward that way? mr. lovelady. toward that way; everybody thought it was coming from that direction. mr. ball. by the time you left the steps had mr. truly entered the building? mr. lovelady. as we left the steps i would say we were at least , maybe , steps away from the building. i looked back and i saw him and the policeman running into the building. mr. ball. how many steps? mr. lovelady. twenty, . mr. ball. steps away and you looked back and saw him enter the building? mr. lovelady. yes. mr. ball. then you came back. how long did you stay around the railroad tracks? mr. lovelady. oh, just a minute, maybe minute and a half. mr. ball. then what did you do? mr. lovelady. came back right through that part where mr. campbell, mr. truly, and mr. shelley park their cars and i came back inside the building. mr. ball. and enter from the rear? mr. lovelady. yes, sir; sure did. mr. ball. you heard the shots. and how long after that was it before gloria calvary came up? mr. lovelady. oh, approximately minutes, i would say. mr. ball. three minutes is a long time. mr. lovelady. yes, it's--i say approximately; i can't say because i don't have a watch; it could. mr. ball. had people started to run? mr. lovelady. well, i couldn't say because she came up to us and we was talking to her, wasn't looking that direction at that time, but when we came off the steps--see, that entrance, you have a blind side when you go down the steps. mr. ball. right after you talked to gloria, did you leave the steps and go toward the tracks? mr. lovelady. yes. mr. ball. did you run or walk? mr. lovelady. medium trotting or fast walk. mr. ball. a fast walk? mr. lovelady. yes. mr. ball. how did you happen to turn around and see truly and the policeman go into the building? mr. lovelady. somebody hollered and i looked. mr. ball. you turned around and looked? mr. lovelady. yes. mr. ball. after you ran to the railroad tracks you came back and went in the back door of the building? mr. lovelady. right. mr. ball. did you go in through the docks, the wide open door or did you go in the ordinary small door? mr. lovelady. you know where we park our trucks--that door; we have a little door. mr. ball. that is where you went in, that little door? mr. lovelady. that's right. mr. ball. that would be the north end of the building? mr. lovelady. that would be the west end, wouldn't it? mr. ball. is it the one right off houston street? mr. lovelady. no; you are thinking about another dock. mr. ball. i am? mr. lovelady. yes; we have two. mr. ball. do you have a dock on the west side and one on the north side of the building? mr. lovelady. east, and well, it would be east and west but you enter it from the south side. mr. ball. now, the south side---- mr. lovelady. elm street is that little dead-end street. mr. ball. that's south. mr. lovelady. i drive my truck here (indicating) but we came in from this direction; that would have to be west. mr. ball. you came into the building from the west side? mr. lovelady. right. mr. ball. where did you go into the building? mr. lovelady. through that, those raised-up doors. mr. ball. through the raised-up doors? mr. lovelady. through that double door that we in the morning when we get there we raised. there's a fire door and they have two wooden doors between it. mr. ball. you came in through the first floor? mr. lovelady. right. mr. ball. who did you see in the first floor? mr. lovelady. i saw a girl but i wouldn't swear to it it's vickie. mr. ball. who is vickie? mr. lovelady. the girl that works for scott, foresman. mr. ball. what is her full name? mr. lovelady. i wouldn't know. mr. ball. vickie adams? mr. lovelady. i believe so. mr. ball. would you say it was vickie you saw? mr. lovelady. i couldn't swear. mr. ball. where was the girl? mr. lovelady. i don't remember what place she was but i remember seeing a girl and she was talking to bill or saw bill or something, then i went over and asked one of the guys what time it was and to see if we should continue working or what. mr. ball. did you see any other people on the first floor? mr. lovelady. oh, yes; by that time there were more; a few of the guys had come in. mr. ball. and you stayed on the first door then? mr. lovelady. i would say minutes. and one of the policemen asked me would i take them up on the sixth floor. mr. ball. did you take them up there? mr. lovelady. yes, sir; i sure did. mr. ball. mr. lovelady, your testimony will be written up and it can be submitted to you for your signature if you wish and you can make any changes, or you can waive signature and we will make this your final---- mr. lovelady. i want this to be the final one. mr. ball. all right; you waive signature? mr. lovelady. yes. mr. ball. thanks very much. testimony of frankie kaiser the testimony of frankie kaiser was taken at : p.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. joseph a. ball, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. ball. will you hold up your right hand and be sworn, please? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before the commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. kaiser. i do. mr. ball. will you give me your name, please? mr. kaiser. frankie kaiser. mr. ball. what is your address? mr. kaiser. west ledbetter in duncanville. mr. ball. what is your occupation? mr. kaiser. warehouse workman at the texas school book depository. mr. ball. how long have you worked for that company? mr. kaiser. oh, just about years. mr. ball. what time do you go to work down there? mr. kaiser. eight o'clock in the morning. mr. ball. what date did you go to work for them? mr. kaiser. it was august , . mr. ball. where did you go to school? mr. kaiser. texas--texarkana, ark. mr. ball. were you born there? mr. kaiser. no, sir; i was born in omaha, nebr. mr. ball. and then you went to school in texarkana, did you? mr. kaiser. right. mr. ball. and what did you do after you got out of school? mr. kaiser. i never finished. mr. ball. how far did you go? mr. kaiser. i went to the tenth grade and quit and went in the service and went in for months in the national guards and come out and then came to dallas and started to work and i worked for morrises. mr. ball. you worked for whom? mr. kaiser. morris warehouse. mr. ball. then what did you do after that? mr. kaiser. i worked there for about years and then i started to work over there. mr. ball. you started to work over at the texas school book depository? mr. kaiser. yes--then i got married. mr. ball. you did--what kind of work do you do at the texas school book depository? mr. kaiser. drive a truck--fill orders--just about anything that needs to be done. mr. ball. did you ever know a fellow by the name of lee oswald that worked there? mr. kaiser. not personally--i would know him when i would see him. mr. ball. did you work in the same building with him? mr. kaiser. same building. mr. ball. where were you when the president's parade went by? mr. kaiser. at the baylor dental college. mr. ball. where? mr. kaiser. at the baylor dental college. mr. ball. sir, you weren't anywhere near the school book depository? mr. kaiser. no, sir; i was off thursday and friday with abscessed tooth. i was sitting in the chair and when i got off, we was out in the lobby watching it on tv down at the dental college there. mr. ball. when did you go back to work? mr. kaiser. it was the following monday. mr. ball. that would be the th, wouldn't it? mr. kaiser. yes, sir; i believe so--the th. mr. ball. now, one day you found a clipboard, didn't you? mr. kaiser. yes; it was about a week later. i went upstairs, you see, the corner i found it in--we keep a certain teacher's edition of catholic handbooks. mr. ball. i didn't quite hear that--catholic what? mr. kaiser. we keep our teacher's edition of catholic "think and do" books. mr. ball. i didn't quite hear that--catholic what? mr. kaiser. we keep our teacher's edition of catholic books--separated. mr. ball. you do? mr. kaiser. yes, sir; and i went up there to get a teacher's edition. mr. ball. on what floor? mr. kaiser. on the sixth floor. mr. ball. now, what part of the sixth floor is this catholic edition located? mr. kaiser. it was in that corner. mr. ball. and in what corner is that? mr. kaiser. let's see---- mr. ball. without saying north or south, was it near the elevator? or the stairway? mr. kaiser. yes, it was right in front of the elevator. mr. ball. where was it with reference to the stairway? mr. kaiser. it was right next to the stairway--right in the corner. mr. ball. right in the corner next to the stairway, is that right? mr. kaiser. yes, sir. mr. ball. now, what day did you find it, do you remember? mr. kaiser. i couldn't tell you. it was about a week or a week and a half, somewhere in there. mr. ball. now, this statement you gave to the federal bureau of investigation on the d of december , says you talked to an agent named pinkston; do you remember that? mr. kaiser. well, i got my boss and the fbi to go upstairs and i showed it to them. mr. ball. when you saw the clipboard---- mr. kaiser. i went downstairs and got my boss. mr. ball. what is his name? mr. kaiser. william h. shelley. mr. ball. and then what happened? mr. kaiser. this fbi was standing there with me--he was standing there then and i told him i had a clipboard laying up there with the orders. mr. ball. do you think it would have been around december ? mr. kaiser. i couldn't tell you, sir. mr. ball. it was within a week after you went back to work, was it? mr. kaiser. to my best knowledge--yes, sir--somewhere in there. mr. ball. how did you happen to find the clipboard? mr. kaiser. i was over there looking for the catholic edition--teacher's edition. mr. ball. where did you see the clipboard? mr. kaiser. it was just laying there in the plain open--and just the plain open boxes--you see, we've got a pretty good space back there and i just noticed it laying over there. mr. ball. laying on the floor? mr. kaiser. yes, it was laying on the floor. mr. ball. it was on the floor? mr. kaiser. it was on the floor. mr. ball. how close was it to the wall? mr. kaiser. it was about--oh--i would say, just guessing, about or inches, something like that. mr. ball. from the wall and on the floor? mr. kaiser. laying on the floor. mr. ball. and were there any boxes between the wall and the clipboard? mr. kaiser. no, not between the wall and the clipboard--there wasn't. mr. ball. were there boxes between the stairway and the clipboard? mr. kaiser. no, you see, here's--let me see just a second--here's the stairs right here, and we went down this way and here's the stairs this way going up and here's the--and it was laying right in here by the cards--there are about four or five cards, i guess, running in front of it--just laying between the part you go down and the part you go up. mr. ball. you mean laying between the stairway up and the stairway down? mr. kaiser. yes, right there in the corner. mr. ball. did you examine that clipboard? mr. kaiser. i didn't touch it. mr. ball. did you later touch it? mr. kaiser. yes, sir; they got me to look at it later on. mr. ball. did you see it had some orders on it? mr. kaiser. yes. mr. ball. and were the orders dated? mr. kaiser. yes, sir. mr. ball. what were they dated? mr. kaiser. i couldn't tell you, sir. mr. ball. take a look at this statement which you gave to mr. pinkston that day and read it to yourself and see if it refreshes your memory in any way? mr. kaiser. (read statement referred to.) mr. ball. did you read that? mr. kaiser. yes, sir. mr. ball. does that refresh your memory now as to the orders on the clipboard? mr. kaiser. i didn't know the date on the orders--i knew that there was some orders on there--i seen the orders on the clipboard. mr. ball. did you examine them to determine the date on them? mr. kaiser. did i examine those orders? no, sir. mr. ball. you didn't examine the orders? mr. kaiser. no, sir; i just went down and got my boss and then they took it down. mr. ball. did you make any notes of the orders? mr. kaiser. i didn't, sir. mr. ball. of either the names on the orders or the date of the orders? mr. kaiser. no, sir; now, my boss may have. mr. ball. i think that's all. did you fill the orders, then, yourself? mr. kaiser. no, sir; not them, i didn't. mr. ball. you turned these over to your boss? mr. kaiser. you see, i went down and got them and they went down and got them and they handled them. mr. ball. that's all, mr. kaiser, and thanks very much for coming up. this will be written up and you can come down and read it over and sign it if you wish, or you can waive your signature, if you want to, and we can send it on without a signature. now, we will mark these pictures we've been talking about here in your deposition as kaiser exhibits nos. a, b, c. (marked by reporter as kaiser exhibits nos. a, b, c, for identification.) mr. kaiser. anything else i can do, let me know. mr. ball. do you want to waive your signature to it? mr. kaiser. yes, i'll waive it. mr. ball. fine. that's okay. mr. kaiser. all right. testimony of frankie kaiser resumed the testimony of frankie kaiser was taken at : p.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. joseph a. ball, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. ball. frankie, we have already taken your deposition and i just wanted to ask you a few more questions and you are still under oath. mr. kaiser. yes, sir. mr. ball. now, frankie, that clipboard you found describe it--what was it? mr. kaiser. it was made out of paper and tape and a little piece of pasteboard. mr. ball. who made it? mr. kaiser. i did. mr. ball. when? mr. kaiser. well, right after i started there--it had been a long time ago. mr. ball. and how was it you weren't using it on this day? mr. kaiser. you see, when he first started there---- mr. ball. who is "he"? mr. kaiser. lee--when he first started to work there he got my clipboard and started using it. mr. ball. did you give it to him to use? mr. kaiser. no, he just picked it up and started using it and i just went and made me another one. mr. ball. you recognized that clipboard when you saw it? mr. kaiser. yes, because my name was all over it. mr. ball. your name was on it, too? mr. kaiser. yes, sir. mr. ball. you put your name "frankie kaiser" on it? mr. kaiser. you see, it don't do no good to get a clipboard around here--everybody is always running off with it. mr. ball. that's the reason you put your name on it? mr. kaiser. he come up and got it and started using it and i just let him keep it and made me another one. mr. ball. now, here is a picture which is marked in a group of pictures as no. , but which i will mark as exhibit a to your deposition. (instrument marked by the reporter as kaiser exhibit a, for identification.) mr. ball. does this show the place where the clipboard was found, or do you know? mr. kaiser. it wasn't found there--it was found on the floor. mr. ball. where on the floor? mr. kaiser. behind these cartons--between there and the wall. mr. ball. behind which cartons? mr. kaiser. right in here (indicating). mr. ball. which cartons--it was found behind--are the cartons in the picture--it wasn't found where it is circled there? mr. kaiser. it wasn't found where it circled--there--it was found on the floor. mr. ball. put a big "x" on the carton behind which it was found. mr. kaiser. i'll put it on this one--it was found between that and the wall. (witness placed "x" on the pictures requested by counsel ball.) mr. ball. you have marked an "x" on the carton--between that carton and the wall the clipboard was found. mr. kaiser. yes, between these row of cartons right over there. mr. ball. now, did you later find clothing? mr. kaiser. i just found the coat there--i didn't even know it was his until somebody told me it was. i thought they were kidding. mr. ball. this is commission exhibit --do you recognize that blue jacket? mr. kaiser. that's the one i found. mr. ball. where did you find it--tell me first. mr. kaiser. it was in the window sill. mr. ball. in what room? mr. kaiser. in the domino room. mr. ball. now, i show you a picture, no. , this is marked--does this show the window? mr. kaiser. right down in here. mr. ball. there is a jacket showing in that window, is that where the jacket was found? mr. kaiser. yes, sir; but it was laying behind this in the window. mr. ball. it wasn't found in the position of the jacket shown in the picture? mr. kaiser. no; it sure wasn't. mr. ball. but was it the same window? mr. kaiser. yes. mr. ball. and the window sill is shown there too? mr. kaiser. yes; it is. mr. ball. i show you a picture which is marked exhibit , does this show the place where the jacket was found? mr. kaiser. right over in here. mr. ball. where--put an "x" there--it's in the window sill? mr. kaiser. right. (marked diagram with an "x".) mr. ball. there is an exhibit , which shows the corner of the domino room and the window and it is marked as exhibit b and the picture marked no. , which shows the window sill, bearing an "x" placed there by the witness, and is marked as exhibit "c". will you initial that "c" please? mr. kaiser. (initialed instrument as requested.) mr. ball. that's "fk". i believe we are through, now, frankie, thank you very much. mr. kaiser. that's all right. mr. ball. you'll waive this signature too? mr. kaiser. yes. (instruments marked by the reporter as kaiser exhibits b and c, for identification.) testimony of charles douglas givens the testimony of charles douglas givens was taken at a.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. david w. belin, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. belin. would you stand and raise your right hand? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give, will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. givens. i do. mr. belin. what is your name, please? mr. givens. charles douglas givens. mr. belin. where do you live, mr. givens? mr. givens. i live at first avenue. mr. belin. in dallas? mr. givens. yes, sir. mr. belin. how old are you? mr. givens. . mr. belin. married? mr. givens. yes, sir. mr. belin. family? mr. givens. no, sir. mr. belin. where were you born, mr. givens? mr. givens. kemp, tex. mr. belin. have you lived in texas most of your life? mr. givens. all my life except i was in the armed forces during world war ii, in the navy. mr. belin. how long were you in the navy? mr. givens. about years. mr. belin. let me backtrack a little. did you go to high school before you went in the navy? mr. givens. yes, sir. mr. belin. how far did you get through school? mr. givens. twelfth grade. mr. belin. did you get through the th? mr. givens. no, sir. mr. belin. you got up to the th grade? mr. givens. yes. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. givens. well, i went to work. mr. belin. doing what? mr. givens. smu. mr. belin. pardon? mr. givens. smu. mr. belin. smu? mr. givens. yes. mr. belin. what did you do out there? mr. givens. i worked in the kitchen. mr. belin. how long did you stay there? mr. givens. oh, about years. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. givens. i went in the service. mr. belin. you went in the service for a couple of years? mr. givens. yes, sir. mr. belin. what did you do with most of your time in the service? mr. givens. i was in the steward mate branch. mr. belin. were you honorably discharged? mr. givens. yes, sir. mr. belin. then what did you do when you got out of the service? mr. givens. i went back to work. mr. belin. at smu? mr. givens. no, sir. mr. belin. where? mr. givens. i worked at central lumber co. mr. belin. doing what there? mr. givens. i was a truck helper; helper on the truck. mr. belin. you were helper on a truck? mr. givens. delivering lumber; yes, sir. mr. belin. how long did you do that? mr. givens. oh, about a year and a half, i guess. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. givens. one time i got into a little difficulty. got in a little trouble. mr. belin. you got in a little trouble? mr. givens. yes. mr. belin. all right, you were not working for a while? mr. givens. yes, sir. mr. belin. about how long was that? mr. givens. about months. mr. belin. all right, then, what did you do? mr. givens. well, i came back and i worked for a construction company, and then after that i got this job down here at the depository. mr. belin. at the school book depository? mr. givens. yes. mr. belin. how long have you worked there? mr. givens. off and on about years. mr. belin. was there any period of time that you haven't worked there? mr. givens. yes, sir. mr. belin. what happened then? mr. givens. well, i just, you know, sometimes i had some days to layoff during the slack season, like it is now, and when it is rush season he calls you back. mr. belin. so it was just a question of being laid off during the slack season? mr. givens. yes, sir. mr. belin. what do you do down there at the texas book depository? mr. givens. well, i filled orders and stacked books, and you know, don't have any special job. mr. belin. on what floors do you generally work most of all? mr. givens. well, i work on the first floor most of the time, like we fill orders. we work out of the stock downstairs. we go upstairs. we have stock on three floors, fifth, sixth, and seventh. mr. belin. well, do you fill orders for any particular publisher more than another, so that you might be on the fifth floor, or the sixth floor more than the seventh, or do you just spend as much time on any one of those top floors as you do on any other top floor? mr. givens. that's right. mr. belin. is that what you were doing on the d of november , also? mr. givens. no, sir. mr. belin. what were you doing on november ? mr. givens. we were fixing the floor, putting down some plywood on the floor. mr. belin. what floor would this have been on? mr. givens. sixth. mr. belin. what part of the sixth floor? mr. givens. we were working on the west end. mr. belin. all right, do you remember what time you got to work that day? mr. givens. yes; i got to work around about a quarter to eight. mr. belin. where did you go when you got to work? mr. givens. i went in a little lunchroom that we have downstairs. mr. belin. is that what you call the domino room? mr. givens. yes, sir. mr. belin. you carry your lunch with you? mr. givens. yes, sir. mr. belin. you put your lunch there? mr. givens. yes, sir. mr. belin. did you wear a jacket to work that day? mr. givens. i wore a raincoat, i believe. it was misting that morning. mr. belin. did you hang up your coat in that room, too? mr. givens. yes, sir. mr. belin. did you know lee harvey oswald? mr. givens. well, i knew of him. mr. belin. have you ever talked with him at all? mr. givens. well, i talked to him once in a while. i mean, just like about filling orders or something like that. sometimes i check and he was filling orders and he make a mistake, and i call him and get the book right. mr. belin. do you remember any conversation you ever had with him? what you said and what he said? mr. givens. well, he was a fellow that kept pretty much to himself. he never had too much to say. mr. belin. did he ever say anything to you, what a nice day, or about his family, or baseball, or anything? mr. givens. no, sir. mr. belin. ever talk to you about any politics? mr. givens. no, sir. mr. belin. when you talked to him about correcting an order, what did you say and what did he say? mr. givens. well, i just tell him he had the wrong book. mr. belin. what would he say? mr. givens. he said, "okay," and got the record. mr. belin. what did you call him, lee or oswald? mr. givens. called him lee. mr. belin. what did he call you? mr. givens. well, he never called me anything. i never heard him call me anything. mr. belin. did he make mistakes often? mr. givens. well, not too often. mr. belin. when you got to work on the morning of november , did you see him at all there or not? mr. givens. d? that was on friday, wasn't it? mr. belin. friday; that is the day the president came by. mr. givens. yes, i saw him that day. mr. belin. where did you see him first? mr. givens. well, i first saw him on the first floor. mr. belin. about what time was that? mr. givens. well, about : . mr. belin. now, let me ask you this. you got to work at a quarter to ? mr. givens. yes, sir. mr. belin. what did you do between a quarter of and : ? where were you? mr. givens. well, i went upstairs. we went to work at o'clock. mr. belin. did you see him come into the domino room at all? mr. givens. not that morning, no, sir; i didn't. mr. belin. when did you leave the domino room to go up to the sixth floor? mr. givens. o'clock. mr. belin. at o'clock? mr. givens. yes, sir. mr. belin. so you don't feel he came in the domino room before o'clock? mr. givens. no, sir; not that morning he didn't. mr. belin. how did you get up to the sixth floor? mr. givens. on the elevator. mr. belin. the east or the west one? the west one is the one that would be nearest the railroad tracks, and the east one would be nearer the houston street. mr. givens. we went up on the east one. mr. belin. any particular reason why you took the east one rather than the west one? mr. givens. well, i don't know whether you call it a particular reason, but on the west, you have double gates on that. mr. belin. was the west elevator on the first floor when you took the east elevator up? mr. givens. it was that morning, yes, sir. mr. belin. it was that morning around o'clock? mr. givens. yes, sir. mr. belin. now, where did you see him at : o'clock first? mr. givens. i came back down to use the rest room. mr. belin. where was he? mr. givens. he was over there in the bin filling orders. mr. belin. he was over in the bin filling orders? mr. givens. yes, sir; they had some bins there. mr. belin. did you talk to him at all? mr. givens. no. mr. belin. did you say hello, lee? mr. givens. no, sir; i didn't say anything to him. i just looked at him. mr. belin. do you remember what he was wearing? mr. givens. well, i believe it was kind of a greenish looking shirt and pants was about the same color as his shirt, practically the same thing he wore all the time he worked there. he never changed clothes the whole time he worked there, and he would wear a grey looking jacket. mr. belin. all right. you saw him at : on the first floor? mr. givens. yes, sir. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. givens. well, we went back upstairs and started to work. mr. belin. you went back up to the sixth floor to continue laying the floor? mr. givens. yes, sir. mr. belin. when did you see lee harvey oswald next? mr. givens. next? mr. belin. yes. mr. givens. well, it was about a quarter till , we were on our way downstairs, and we passed him, and he was standing at the gate on the fifth floor. i came downstairs, and i discovered i left my cigarettes in my jacket pocket upstairs, and i took the elevator back upstairs to get my jacket with my cigarettes in it. when i got back upstairs, he was on the sixth floor in that vicinity, coming from that way. mr. belin. coming from what way? mr. givens. toward the window up front where the shots were fired from. mr. belin. just a second, where did you go? where were you when you saw him on the sixth floor? mr. givens. i had went and got my jacket and was on my way back to the elevator. mr. belin. all right, just a second. i am going to get a plan of the sixth floor, if i have one, and try and have you point that out to me. mr. givens. yes, sir. mr. belin. well, i don't seem to have a sixth floor plan here, but perhaps we can use another plan here to help us. here is a diagram of the front of the building. this is the elm street side, and you can see the arrow pointing north. this perhaps would be a diagram of the third floor. you notice that there are one, two, three, four, five, six, seven sets of windows, right? mr. givens. yes. mr. belin. on the elm street side, seven pairs of windows? mr. givens. yes, sir. mr. belin. you notice the two freight elevators toward the rear. now did you see--when you first saw him on the sixth floor there, were you standing near any of these windows? mr. givens. no, sir. i was over here by the elevators. mr. belin. you are pointing your finger to a spot which would be somewhat to the east of the east elevator, is that correct? mr. givens. that's correct. mr. belin. at a spot which is about on the same line as what i call the south side of the east elevator, and about as far east of the front part of that elevator as the distance from the front of the elevator to the back of the east elevator, is that about right? mr. givens. yes, sir. mr. belin. you were standing at that point, and where did you see lee harvey oswald? mr. givens. well, i was along here [indicating]. mr. belin. all right, you are pointing at a spot you say along in here? mr. givens. yes, sir. mr. belin. that would be near the east wall of the building? mr. givens. yes, sir. mr. belin. you can see a scale here that is from to feet. well, it would be about to feet north of the south wall of that building, is that right? mr. givens. yes, sir. mr. belin. and around feet or so away from the east wall, is that about right? mr. givens. that is about right. mr. belin. now, did you notice whether or not there were any cartons stacked up around the southeast corner of that sixth floor? mr. givens. well, i didn't pay any attention about any being stacked, because we had taken all that stock from that side of the building and ran it down that side. mr. belin. you had taken stock down from the west part of the sixth floor where you were working and put it there? mr. givens. yes; ran it down the side right in front of the window. mr. belin. was he between that stock and the window, or was he on the other side of the window? mr. givens. he was between the stock and the window, coming towards the elevators. mr. belin. coming towards the elevators? mr. givens. yes, sir. mr. belin. did you see all of his body or not? mr. givens. yes, sir; he had his clipboard in his hand. mr. belin. he had his clipboard in his hand? mr. givens. yes, sir. mr. belin. was that kind of an aisleway over there right next to the east wall that he was walking along, or what? mr. givens. yes, sir; they have aisles. mr. belin. now, was there stock in back of him as well as in front of him? were you where you had stacked it up, or not, or don't you remember? mr. givens. well, it was already some books stacked there. mr. belin. were there books stacked between where you saw him and the window itself? mr. givens. yes, sir. mr. belin. all right, he was walking with his clipboard from that southeast corner? mr. givens. yes, sir. mr. belin. where did you see him walking? what direction did you see him walking in? mr. givens. he was coming towards the elevators. mr. belin. from the elm street side of the building? mr. givens. yes, sir. mr. belin. so that would be walking in a northerly direction? mr. givens. yes, sir. mr. belin. now, you said that he had a clipboard in his hand? mr. givens. yes; he had his board with his orders on it. mr. belin. did you see the orders on the board? mr. givens. well, yes, sir; he had it in his hand. mr. belin. did he have any books in his hand that he was carrying? mr. givens. no, sir. mr. belin. did you ever fill orders in november on the sixth floor? mr. givens. yes, sir. mr. belin. do you remember whether or not there were any books or book cartons over in that corner from which he might have been filling orders? mr. givens. well, yes, sir; it was possible. mr. belin. it was possible? mr. givens. yes, sir. mr. belin. did you watch where he walked to? mr. givens. well, no, sir; i didn't pay much attention. i was getting ready to get on the elevator, and i say, "boy, are you going downstairs?" mr. belin. what did he say to you? mr. givens. i say, "it's near lunch time." he said, "no, sir. when you get downstairs, close the gate to the elevator." that meant the elevator on the west side, you can pull both gates down and it will come up by itself. mr. belin. what else did he say? mr. givens. that is all. mr. belin. what did you say to that? did you say you would close the elevator gate, or not say anything? mr. givens. i said, "okay," and got on the elevator. mr. belin. what elevator did you take down? mr. givens. i taken this one. mr. belin. the east elevator? mr. givens. the east elevator. mr. belin. do you know whether or not when you got down to the first floor, the west elevator was there? mr. givens. no, sir; it wasn't, because i looked over there to close the gate and it wasn't there. mr. belin. it wasn't there when you got down to the first floor? mr. givens. no, sir; it wasn't. mr. belin. do you know where it was? mr. givens. no, sir; i don't. mr. belin. what time was this? mr. givens. well, i would say it was about minutes to , then because it was---- mr. belin. now what did you do when you got down there on the first floor? mr. givens. when i got down to the first floor harold norman, james jarman and myself, we stood over by the window, and then we said we was going outside and watch the parade, so we walked out and we stood there a while, and then i said, "i believe i will walk up to the parking lot." i had a friend that worked on the parking lot, right on elm and record. mr. belin. elm and record streets? mr. givens. elm and record streets; yes, sir. mr. belin. that would be one block to the east of the corner of elm and houston? mr. givens. that's right. mr. belin. all right, then, what did you do? mr. givens. i stood around over there and went up on the corner. mr. belin. what corner? mr. givens. up on main and record. that is where i watched the president pass right there. mr. belin. who else was there with you that you knew? mr. givens. james and edward shields. mr. belin. is that the same person, james edward? mr. givens. edward shields and james. mr. belin. two other people? mr. givens. yes. mr. belin. you watched the motorcade together? mr. givens. yes, sir. mr. belin. what did you do after you watched the motorcade? mr. givens. we turned and started back down to the parking lot. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. givens. then when we heard the shots, by the time we got along in front, right across in front of the record building, then we heard the shots. mr. belin. i want to backtrack a minute before we come to the shots. when did you eat lunch? mr. givens. when did i eat lunch? i ate lunch after. let's see, no; i ate lunch before i went up there, because i stood outside and ate my sandwich standing out there. mr. belin. you ate your lunch outside? mr. givens. yes, sir. standing in front of the building. mr. belin. in front of what building? mr. givens. texas school book. mr. belin. did you ever eat any lunch inside the building? mr. givens. yes, sir; i eat inside the building all the time. mr. belin. on november , did you eat inside the building? mr. givens. no, sir. mr. belin. now you said you saw lee oswald on the sixth floor around : ? mr. givens. right. mr. belin. did you see lee oswald anywhere else in the building between : and the time you left the building? mr. givens. no, sir. mr. belin. on november d? mr. givens. no, sir. mr. belin. did you see him in the domino room at all around anywhere between : and or : ? mr. givens. no, sir. mr. belin. did you see him reading the newspaper? mr. givens. no; not that day. i did--he generally sit in there every morning. he would come to work and sit in there and read the paper, the next day paper, like if the day was tuesday, he would read monday's paper in the morning when he would come to work, but he didn't that morning because he didn't go in the domino room that morning. i didn't see him in the domino room that morning. mr. belin. how do you know it was the previous day paper that he read? mr. givens. because he would be sitting there and i would look at him, when he got through and got up to go to work, i would get it and look at it. mr. belin. would it be a news or times herald? mr. givens. well, they bring dallas morning news around in the morning. fellows bring it to work. mr. belin. you mean he would read someone else's newspaper that somebody else brought to work? mr. givens. yes, sir. mr. belin. did you ever know him to buy his own newspaper? mr. givens. no, sir; i never saw him buy one. mr. belin. who generally brought the newspaper there? mr. givens. well, harold norman would generally bring one and james jarman would generally bring one. mr. belin. now you say you left the sixth floor. well, you said you left it first to go--did you go down with the other employees on the elevator? mr. givens. yes, sir. mr. belin. about what time was that now? mr. givens. that was about a quarter--i said about a quarter to . mr. belin. who was on that elevator, do you remember? mr. givens. that was bonnie ray williams, and billy lovelady, and danny and myself. mr. belin. that was danny arce? mr. givens. yes; a spanish boy. mr. belin. then you say you got down there and you say you wanted your cigarettes so you went back up? mr. givens. yes, sir. mr. belin. what elevator did you go down on? mr. givens. i came down on the east elevator. mr. belin. what elevator did you take back up? mr. givens. the east elevator. mr. belin. that day had you eaten any chicken at all, or anything on the sixth floor? mr. givens. no, sir. mr. belin. had you eaten any chicken or left a pop bottle on any previous days on the sixth floor? mr. givens. no, sir. mr. belin. did you go immediately to your jacket when you went back up to the sixth floor? mr. givens. yes, sir; i went straight and picked up my jacket. mr. belin. where was your jacket? mr. givens. it was on the west side of the building where we were working. mr. belin. well, there are seven pairs of windows. was it on the south wall of the building? was it near any one of those windows on the south wall, or was it more to the center of the west side? mr. givens. it was more to the corner on the west side. i would say along about the second window going. mr. belin. when you say the corner, do you mean the corner by the stairs or the southwest corner? mr. givens. southwest corner. mr. belin. you have shown the southwest corner? mr. givens. yes, sir; along about here [indicating]. mr. belin. you have pointed to a spot which appears to be approximately, oh, feet north, and about feet east of the southwest corner of the sixth floor. would that be about right? mr. givens. yes, sir. mr. belin. you have pointed to a spot on this floor plan here. when you walked from the east elevator to pick up your jacket, did you see lee oswald there? mr. givens. no, sir. mr. belin. did you see him anywhere on the sixth floor when you were walking off the elevator to pick up your jacket? mr. givens. no, sir; i didn't see him until i got back along here, about in front of the elevator, fixing to get on. mr. belin. as you were walking to the first spot, which we will describe as somewhat east of the east elevator, were you standing or about to get on the elevator, or what? mr. givens. yes; i was fixing to get on. mr. belin. you were fixing to get on? the elevator was still there where you left it when you came up? mr. givens. yes, sir. mr. belin. as you were starting to get on the elevator or were turning to get on it, you saw lee oswald walking with his clipboard? mr. givens. yes, sir. mr. belin. now, was he walking in a diagonal direction directly toward you and the elevator, or was he walking more in a direction parallel to the east wall here? mr. givens. well, i would say yes, sir; he was going like this. mr. belin. he was going? mr. givens. coming down the aisle. mr. belin. coming down the aisle straight? mr. givens. yes, sir. mr. belin. anything else in his hand other than a clipboard? did he have a pencil in his hand? mr. givens. no, sir; i didn't pay any attention to him. mr. belin. when you got off the elevator, as you were coming back up to get your shirt, did you have any occasion as you were walking out of the elevator to look to see if there was anyone else on the floor? mr. givens. well, no, sir; i wasn't thinking of that. i just happened to glance around as i was on my way back. mr. belin. did you glance around when you got off the elevator, do you remember? mr. givens. well, no, sir. i just walked off and turned and went right over there and picked my jacket up and started back. mr. belin. did you look over in the southeast corner before as you were getting off the elevator? mr. givens. well, i kind of glanced that way when i turned to go around the corner. mr. belin. did you see anyone over there at that time? mr. givens. not at that time, no, sir; i didn't. mr. belin. do you remember how high the books were by the southeast corner on the sixth floor? mr. givens. well, i would say about feet from the window. in the aisle we had one pretty good stack of books there, one large stack. mr. belin. would they have been as tall as you? mr. givens. well, yes, sir. mr. belin. if a man would have been standing up there, would you have been able to see him? mr. givens. no, sir; i wouldn't unless he moved down towards the north end of the building. mr. belin. did anyone else use any of the elevators while you were up on the sixth floor getting your cigarettes? mr. givens. not that i know of; no, sir. mr. belin. did you ever tell anyone that you saw lee oswald reading a newspaper in the domino room around : , minutes to on that morning on november d? mr. givens. no, sir. mr. belin. did you ever observe lee oswald getting the newspaper in the domino room shortly before lunch on days other than november d? mr. givens. not before lunch. it would be right at lunch time. mr. belin. right at lunch time? mr. givens. yes, sir. we always ate in there. mr. belin. would oswald always eat in there? mr. givens. yes, sir. mr. belin. when you first went downstairs from the sixth floor to the first floor with the other men on those two elevators, you took two elevators, didn't you? mr. givens. yes; we took two down. mr. belin. were you racing the elevators? mr. givens. that's right. mr. belin. who won? mr. givens. well, the east elevator beat the other one down, because it stopped quicker, but it had to adjust itself. mr. belin. what did you do when you got down to the first floor before you went back up to the sixth floor again? mr. givens. well, i got a drink of water and reached for my cigarettes and i thought about i left them in my jacket pocket. mr. belin. did you go to the rest room at all before you went back up to the sixth floor? mr. givens. no, sir. yes, sir, i believe i did. i went in and washed my hands, i sure did. mr. belin. anything else before you went back up to the sixth floor? mr. givens. no, sir; that was it. mr. belin. now the first time when you left the sixth floor with these other men to take the two elevators down, did you at any time look over to the southeast corner of the sixth floor? mr. givens. well, no, sir; i didn't pay any attention the first time i was coming down. mr. belin. where were you laying the new floor that morning? what portion of the sixth floor would it be? mr. givens. west side. mr. belin. how much of the west side? mr. givens. well, we were working, i would say, about feet from elm street. mr. belin. well, you were pointing to right over this point here? mr. givens. yes sir. mr. belin. well, looking at the scale, it would be about feet from the--it would be more than feet. here is the scale. this would be feet, so it would be more than feet from elm street? mr. givens. about feet, maybe so. mr. belin. do you think it was closer to feet than feet from the elm street side of the west part of the sixth floor? mr. givens. i believe it was somewhere in that vicinity. mr. belin. how close was it to the west wall on the sixth floor? mr. givens. well, we were, oh, i would say about feet out from the wall, we had laid. mr. belin. did anyone else ever comment to you as having seen oswald on the sixth floor that morning? mr. givens. no, sir. mr. belin. all right. now, is there anything else you can think of that happened that morning up to the time you heard the shot? mr. givens. no, sir. everything was all right until that. mr. belin. how many shots did you hear? mr. givens. three. mr. belin. what did you do when you heard them? mr. givens. well, we broke and ran down that way, and by the time we got to the corner down there of houston and elm, everybody was running, going toward the underpass over there by the railroad tracks. and we asked--i asked someone--some white fellow there, "what happened?" and he said, "somebody shot the president." like that. so i stood there for a while, and i went over to try to get to the building after they found out the shots came from there, and when i went over to try to get back in the officer at the door would't let me in. mr. belin. did you tell him you worked there? mr. givens. yes; but he still wouldn't let me in. he told me he wouldn't let no one in. mr. belin. this was the front of elm street? mr. givens. yes. so i goes back over to the parking lot and i wait until i seen junior. mr. belin. is that jarman? mr. givens. yes. they were on their way home, and they told me that they let them all go home for the evening, and i said, "i'd better go back and get my hat and coat." so i started over there to pick up my hat and coat, and officer dawson saw me and he called me and asked me was my name charles givens, and i said, "yes." and he said, "we want you to go downtown and make a statement." and he puts me in the car and takes me down to the city hall and i made a statement to will fritz down there. mr. belin. did you ever see lee oswald at any time after the time you saw him carrying the clipboard on the sixth floor? mr. givens. no, sir. the next time i saw him was on television. mr. belin. is there anything else you can think of, whether i have asked it or not, that in any way is relevant to the assassination? mr. givens. no, sir. mr. belin. anything else you can think of about lee oswald, whether i have asked it or not, that might in any way be helpful? mr. givens. no, sir. other than he is just a peculiar fellow. he is just a loner. don't have much to say to anybody. stayed by himself most of the time. mr. belin. did you ever notice any one person there he was more friendly with than the other? mr. givens. well, this boy he rode with. mr. belin. frazier? mr. givens. yes, sir. every once in a while i would see him talking to him. bonnie ray told me--i never saw him, but bonnie ray told me he talked to he and danny sometimes. mr. belin. anyone else? mr. givens. not that i know of; no, sir. mr. belin. anything else you can think of? mr. givens. no, sir; that is about it. mr. belin. well, mr. givens, we surely appreciate your cooperation in coming down here. now you and i didn't talk about this at all until we started taking this deposition, did we? mr. givens. no, sir. mr. belin. you walked into the room and you raised your right hand and we started taking your testimony. is that correct? mr. givens. yes, sir. mr. belin. have i ever met you before? mr. givens. i don't believe so. i don't believe i have. mr. belin. you have an opportunity to come back here and read this and sign it if you want, or else you can just waive signing and have the court reporter send it directly to washington. do you want to come back and read and sign it or do you want to just have the court reporter just send it to washington? mr. givens. would it be necessary to come back? mr. belin. no, sir; it is not. you can waive it if you desire to do it. do you want to waive it? mr. givens. yes, sir. mr. belin. all right, thank you. we will see you. testimony of troy eugene west the testimony of troy eugene west was taken at : a.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. david w. belin, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. belin. mr. west, would you raise your right hand, please. do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. west. i do. mr. belin. you want to sit down now, please. will you please state your name for the record? your name is troy eugene west? mr. west. troy eugene west. mr. belin. how old are you, mr. west? mr. west. well, i was born in . that would be , i think. mr. belin. were you born in texas? mr. west. yes, sir. mr. belin. you go to school at all in texas? mr. west. yes, sir. mr. belin. how far did you get through school? mr. west. well, i went to the seventh grade. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. west. well; i had to come out of school and go to work. mr. belin. you started working then? mr. west. yes, sir. mr. belin. what did you do when you started working? where did you work? mr. west. on the farm. mr. belin. on the farm? mr. west. on the farm, yes, sir. mr. belin. how long did you stay on the farm? mr. west. oh, i stayed on the farm until way up after i got grown. i was way up past--i guess i was about . mr. belin. when you left the the farm, then what did you do when you left the farm? mr. west. well, i came to town after i left. mr. belin. you came to dallas? mr. west. no, sir; little town at mexia, tex. mr. belin. how long did you stay in town there? mr. west. well, i lived there for about years, i guess. mr. belin. you were in town for years, and generally what did you do when you were in town? mr. west. well, i worked the express all the time. mr. belin. for any particular company? mr. west. i was trying to think of the man's name. mr. belin. you can't remember it right now? mr. west. i just can't remember it right now. been quite a little while. mr. belin. well, do you remember what you did after you got through doing that? after or years, then where did you go? mr. west. i came to dallas. mr. belin. then what did you do in dallas, generally? mr. west. well, i worked around just different places until i started to work for the company where i am now. mr. belin. when did you start working for them? mr. west. well, i have been with them now about years. mr. belin. you have been with them or years? what company is that? mr. west. texas school book depository. mr. belin. are you still working for them now? mr. west. yes, sir. mr. belin. what do you do for the texas school book depository? mr. west. well, i am a mail wrapper. mr. belin. you are a mail wrapper? mr. west. i wrap mail all the time. mr. belin. were you doing that on november d of , too? were you a mail wrapper at that time back in last november? mr. west. yes, sir. mr. belin. did you go to work on november , ? that was a friday, the day the president was assassinated. mr. west. yes; i went to work that day. mr. belin. what time did you get to work? mr. west. well, we always got to work--we were supposed to be there at in the morning. mr. belin. you got there at that morning? mr. west. yes. i always, most of the time i got there a little early. mr. belin. do you remember what time you got to work that particular morning? mr. west. it was about minutes to . i always be or minutes early. mr. belin. where did you go when you got to work? mr. west. well, when i first got to work i always made coffee in the morning at the store. that is the first thing i do in the morning. mr. belin. where did you make the coffee? mr. west. sir? mr. belin. where did you make coffee? mr. west. well, it is down on the first floor in the same department where i wrap mail at. mr. belin. well, i have a first floor map here of the school book depository. here is elm street and here is the front entrance. here is mr. truly's office, and here is mr. shelley's office. there is the stairway down to the basement, and there are the elevators and the back stairway. there are the toilets there. about where would you wrap mail there? here is the domino room and the shower. you are looking here, that is north elm street runs this way and houston street runs that way. it is shown on that diagram. mr. west. well, my place was in the west side of the other building. mr. belin. was it near the stairway. mr. west. no; it wasn't close to the stairway. mr. belin. was it closer to the elm street side of the building? mr. west. no, sir. mr. belin. what was it close to? the west side is the side near the railroad tracks and the triple underpass. is that what you think is the west side? mr. west. yes, sir; that is what i would call the west side. mr. belin. well, now, the northwest part is by the stairway, and the southwest part would be toward the corner near elm street. do you mean toward the elm or more toward the wooden dock in the back? mr. west. well, it was about, i would say, middleways between elm and the dock. mr. belin. well, there are a couple of overhead doors on that west side, aren't there? mr. west. yes, sir. mr. belin. you see where it is marked on the first floor diagram, overhead door and overhead door? two doorways here on the west side? mr. west. yes, sir. mr. belin. then was it near either one of those doorways? mr. west. well, it was near this one, pretty close to this one. mr. belin. it was close to what i would call a doorway, approximately in the middle side of the west wall of the first floor? mr. west. yes. mr. belin. that is where you wrapped the mail? mr. west. yes, sir. mr. belin. that is where you have the coffee machine? mr. west. yes, sir; i have it. mr. belin. that is where you went when you got to work that morning? mr. west. yes. mr. belin. did you first go to the domino room and leave your lunch or hang up your coat or anything? mr. west. no, sir. i just always go right there first. sometime i pull my coat off and lay it over on the table and go right on. mr. belin. how long did you stay about making coffee when you got there? how long did you stay around that place when you first got there? mr. west. well, let's see, it didn't take me too long. i mean, you know, to make the coffee. after i got it made, i went right on and went right on at my work wrapping mail. mr. belin. did you stay in that general area all the time? mr. west. sir? mr. belin. did you stay in that general location all the time? mr. west. that was my, all my work was right there on the first floor. i never did--- mr. belin. did you see lee harvey oswald that morning? mr. west. i did not. mr. belin. did you notice lee harvey oswald? mr. west. sir? mr. belin. did you notice lee harvey oswald? mr. west. yes; i had been seeing him every morning, you know. he would come to work. excepting the morning, i didn't see him that morning at all. mr. belin. did you generally see him when he first came to work? mr. west. most of the time i see him. mr. belin. where did you see him when he first came to work? mr. west. well, he would come in and probably i would be on my way back to the rest room, probably to get water in my percolator, or maybe wash the cups or something, and i would see him when he would come in, and i would speak and go right ahead. mr. belin. what did you say, and what did lee harvey oswald say? mr. west. i would just say to him, "good morning," and he said, "good morning," to me, and he was going right on, and i did. mr. belin. did he ever stop and get a cup of coffee? mr. west. i never did see him stop and get any. i don't know whether he drink coffee or not. he never did stop and get any. mr. belin. when you would see him, where would he be walking or working when he first came to work in the morning? mr. west. he would be order filler, and naturally, they have bins, all those bins down there made for stock, and he would be working around in there sometime. mr. belin. did you see him when you walked into work, or did you see him after he started working? mr. west. well, i would notice him times after he done started working. mr. belin. you didn't generally see him walking into work, did you, or did you? generally, when you would first see him, would he be just walking into work? mr. west. be just coming in. mr. belin. what route would he take when he normally came to work? do you know what doorway? did he walk through the front or the back? mr. west. well, it is through the back door. he would come in the side door next to the dock on the northeast side. mr. belin. then what route would he take when he walked in? mr. west. well, he would come right in, and a lot of times i would be mostly, or be passing him, and he would come right in and probably i'd go right on, and i never would see him no more than that he would be on that work, or whatever. mr. belin. when he came in, for instance, did he go right to an elevator to go upstairs, or did he go over to the domino room, or down to the basement, or where would he go when he would first come in? mr. west. he would go and pull off his jacket or coat or whatever he had on, and go on to work there. mr. belin. well, where would he put his coat when he took it off? mr. west. sometimes he would hang it up. mr. belin. where? mr. west. pretty close to the elevator, or something, or lots of times he would just lay it down on something there in the building. mr. belin. did you ever see him take his jacket into the domino room to hang it up? mr. west. no; i never did see him. mr. belin. he would either lay his jacket or hang it up by the elevator, or lay it on these boxes where he was working, is that what your testimony is? mr. west. yes, sir; he would lay it either close, hang it up on the elevator, or either lay it down. a lot of times, he would just pull it off and lay it down. mr. belin. would he ever take his shirt off and put it down there and just work in a t-shirt? mr. west. i don't believe i ever seen him working in just a t-shirt. he worked in his shirt all right, but i never did see him work in a t-shirt. mr. belin. did you ever see him carrying his lunch inside? mr. west. no, sir; i never did see him with any lunch. mr. belin. on the morning of november , did you happen to see buell wesley frazier? do you remember frazier who worked down there? mr. west. yes. mr. belin. did you happen to see him come in that morning on november , that friday, if you remember? mr. west. well, lots of times i seen him that day, but now i didn't see him when he came in, because i had got busy at working and i might have probably had been in, you know, a good while before i saw him. i didn't see when he came. mr. belin. now, i believe you earlier testified you never saw oswald on november ? mr. west. no, sir; i didn't see him that day. mr. belin. were you generally at your spot in the west part of the first floor there that you are talking about by the mailing place? mr. west. yes. mr. belin. were there many days when you would ever see him working down there in the morning near you? mr. west. no, sir. i had generally been seeing him nearly every morning, excepting that morning i didn't see him at all. mr. belin. you saw him every morning except that morning? mr. west. practically every morning except then. mr. belin. when did you quit for lunch that day? mr. west. well, we always quit at o'clock in the day. mr. belin. is that when you quit on november d? mr. west. yes, sir. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. west. well, i went in and washed my hands and face and then got ready to put my coffee on. i always make coffee at . make it in the morning, and then i make it about , between and : . mr. belin. then what did you do? did you put your coffee on? mr. west. yes, sir. mr. belin. in the west part of the first floor where you generally work? mr. west. yes. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. west. well, i went to get my lunch to eat a bite. mr. belin. where did you get your lunch? mr. west. well, i always kept my lunch right there close by my machine, by my wrapping machine that i use all the time, that i always kept my lunch. i have a little place underneath and i keep it there all the time. mr. belin. are you the only one that wraps the books for mailing, or wraps them up for mailing? mr. west. well, no, sir; i am not the only one, but mine is that way just every day. mr. belin. you do it all the time? mr. west. yes; i do that. mr. belin. are you the only one that does it all the time? mr. west. i am the only one that is steady, wraps mail all the time, although i have help, you know, when it gets stacked. mr. belin. did lee harvey oswald ever help you wrap mail? mr. west. no sir; he never did. mr. belin. do you know whether or not he ever borrowed or used any wrapping paper for himself? mr. west. no, sir; i don't. mr. belin. you don't know? mr. west. no; i don't. mr. belin. did you ever see him around these wrapper rolls or wrapper roll machines, or not? mr. west. no, sir; i never noticed him being around. mr. belin. are they paper machines with the rolls of wrapping paper? you have some gum there too, for taping it? when you wrap it, would you tape it with some tape? mr. west. no, sir; i never noticed him being around. mr. belin. did you do that? did you put tape on the wrapping paper when it was being shipped? when you wrap the books up with wrapping paper, did you have any gum tape that you put on it? mr. west. no, sir; i had a machine that i placed it on the machine and tied it with, and the machine tied it with a string. mr. belin. with string? mr. west. yes, sir. mr. belin. didn't you have any gummed tape by your machine? mr. west. sir? mr. belin. did you have any kind of a tape, sticky tape that you would put on the paper to keep it together, or was that somewhere else? mr. west. oh, yes, sir; i used some of that wide tape. mr. belin. is that sticky tape? mr. west. yes, sir. mr. belin. to seal the package with? mr. west. yes, sir; that's right. and then i tie it, put it on the machine and then tie it. mr. belin. is yours the only place that they have the sticky tape? mr. west. well, that is the only place that is supposed to be, you know. mr. belin. could other employees come and pick up some of the tape for themselves? mr. west. yes, sir; they could come get it if they wanted to use it, but all the time it was there where it is supposed to be. mr. belin. did other employees from time to time come and borrow some of that tape at all, or use it? would other employees ever use any of that tape for themselves? mr. west. not as i know of now. mr. belin. if i wanted to use any of that tape, you know that tape that you use to seal it, is there a way to make tape wet so i don't have to lick it myself with my tongue to make it wet and sticky? or how did you get it to be sticky and stick together? mr. west. well, we have those machines with the little round ball that we fill them up with water, and so we set them up. in to--other words, i got a rack that we set them in, and so we put out tape in a machine, and whenever we pull the tape through, why then the water gets, you know, it gets water on it as we pull it through. mr. belin. if i wanted to pull the tape, pull off a piece without getting water on it, would i just lift it up without going over the wet roller and get the tape without getting it wet? mr. west. you would have to take it out. you would have to take it out of the machine. see, it's put on there and then run through a little clamp that holds it down, and you pull it, well, then the water, it gets water on it. mr. belin. is this an electrical machine or is it just kind of a little apparatus for just pulling it through by hand? mr. west. well, it is not electric, no, sir. mr. belin. now going back to november , you said you quit for lunch around noon on that day on friday, november ? mr. west. yes. about o'clock we always quit for lunch. mr. belin. do you remember any of the men coming down the elevator that day? bonnie ray williams or james jarman, jr., or danny arce, or any one else coming down that morning? charlie givens? do you remember them coming down the elevator, or don't you remember? mr. west. i don't remember. mr. belin. now, after you quit for lunch, you made the coffee then? mr. west. yes, sir. mr. belin. where did you make the coffee? mr. west. i made the coffee right there close to the wrapping mail table where i wrap mail. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. west. well, i sit down to eat my lunch. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. west. well, i had just, after i made coffee, i just had started to eat my lunch because i was a little hungry--i didn't eat anything that morning before i went to work--and i had started to eat my lunch. but before i got through, well, all of this was, i mean, the police and things was coming in, and i was just spellbound. i just didn't know what was the matter. so i didn't get through eating. i had to eat about half my lunch, and that is all. mr. belin. did you hear any shots fired? mr. west. i didn't hear a one. didn't hear a one. mr. belin. did you see anyone else on the first floor while you were eating your lunch? anyone else at all did you see on the first floor? mr. west. it wasn't anybody. i didn't see anybody around at that time. mr. belin. at any time while you were making coffee or eating your lunch, did you see anyone else on the first floor? mr. west. no, sir; i didn't see. mr. belin. who was the first person you saw on the first floor after you--while you were eating your lunch? someone came in the building? mr. west. yes; before i got through. the officers and things were coming in the front door. mr. belin. who was the first person or persons that you saw coming through there while you were eating your lunch? mr. west. well, that was police. mr. belin. a police officer? mr. west. yes, sir. mr. belin. anyone else? mr. west. i guess it was a bunch of them, i guess, fbi men, and just a crowd of them coming in there. mr. belin. did you see roy truly coming in at all that time? do you know mr. truly? mr. west. yes, sir; that is the boss, the superintendent. mr. belin. did you ever see him, do you remember, while you were eating your lunch, come in the building? mr. west. yes, sir; i think he came in with the police. mr. belin. was he one of the first people in, or did other people come in ahead of him, if you remember? mr. west. really, i just don't know. mr. belin. that is okay if you don't remember. that is all i want you to say if you don't remember. did you hear anyone yelling to let the elevator loose or anything like that? mr. west. i can't remember. mr. belin. were you working when you were eating your lunch? were you facing the elevator or not when you were eating your lunch? were you facing any of the elevators back there? mr. west. no, sir; i was always--i mean i would always be with my back kind of, you know, towards the elevators and facing the front side over on the side. mr. belin. the elm street side? mr. west. toward elm street side. mr. belin. so you don't know whether anyone was using the elevators? mr. west. no, sir; i don't. mr. belin. do you know whether anyone was going up and down the stairs? mr. west. no, sir; i don't. mr. belin. do you know anything else about what happened on november , that might be helpful or relevant here? mr. west. no, sir; i don't really. mr. belin. were you ever on the second floor on november ? mr. west. no, sir; i never did hardly ever leave the first floor. that is just i stayed there where all my work was, and i just stayed there. mr. belin. on november , did you ever leave the first floor? mr. west. no, sir; i never did leave the first floor. mr. belin. anything else that you can think of, whether i have asked it or not? mr. west. well, i don't know anything else. i know of nothing else. mr. belin. well, we thank you very much for coming down here, mr. west. if you want, you can come back down again and read your deposition and sign it, or else you can just waive coming down here. you don't have to come down. you can tell the court reporter to send it directly to us, if you want to. mr. west. you mean when i get ready to sign it? mr. belin. now you do not have to sign it if you don't want to. you can just tell the court reporter to type it up and send it directly to us, or you can tell the court reporter you would like to read it and sign it before she sends it to us in washington. you don't have to sign it. or if you want to sign it, you can come back and sign it, whichever you want to do. mr. west. well, i think--i don't know. mr. belin. do you want to come down here again and read it and sign it, or do you want to waive? you can waive and tell the court reporter that she can just send it after she types it up, directly to us in washington without your reading it and signing it. mr. west. well, i think that is what i will do, just have it waived and send it on. mr. belin. all right, that is fine. thank you very much, sir. testimony of danny g. arce the testimony of danny g. arce was taken at : p.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by messrs. joseph a. ball and samuel a. stern, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. ball. will you stand up and raise your right hand? do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. arce. yes, sir. mr. ball. state your name, please. mr. arce. danny garcia arce. mr. ball. where do you live? mr. arce. bennett avenue. mr. ball. will you tell me something about yourself, where you were born and where you went to school? mr. arce. i was born here in dallas and i went to stephen f. foster elementary school and alex w. spence junior high and crozier tech. mr. ball. then what did you do? mr. arce. well, i quit school and found a job and worked. mr. ball. where did you find a job? mr. arce. the first job, well, you don't want---- mr. ball. no; just in general. mr. arce. oh, i worked as a cook, short order cook and busboy, and just odd jobs at this rubenstein place on hall--rubenstein and sons. i haven't had too many jobs. mr. ball. what is rubenstein and son, a restaurant? mr. arce. no; kind of an oyster place; they pack them and send them out, i guess. mr. ball. what else have you done? mr. arce. that's about all. mr. ball. when did you go to work for the texas school book depository? mr. arce. i started in september--september, i believe, the th, september th. mr. ball. of what year? mr. arce. . mr. ball. you received a letter from the commission asking you to appear here, didn't you? mr. arce. yes, sir. mr. ball. you understand the purpose of the investigation? mr. arce. yes. mr. ball. to determine the facts surrounding the assassination of the president, president kennedy. mr. arce. yes, sir. mr. ball. you started to work in september , this last september? mr. arce. yes; last september. mr. ball. what kind of work were you employed to do? mr. arce. order filler. mr. ball. what building did you work in? mr. arce. at the warehouse. mr. ball. at houston and elm? mr. arce. no; that's on---- mr. ball. which is this? mr. arce. that's the one behind it; directly behind the texas school book depository at elm and houston. mr. ball. you worked there most of the time as an order filler? mr. arce. yes, sir. mr. ball. did you ever work over at the building at elm? mr. arce. yes, sir; they were short of help up there and they sent me and the other boy down there. mr. ball. who is the other boy? mr. arce. bonnie ray williams. mr. ball. they sent you out to do what? mr. arce. help lay out a floor on the sixth floor. mr. ball. what date did they send you down there? mr. arce. sir, i don't remember. mr. ball. october? mr. arce. i know i had been there about weeks when all that happened; i believe or weeks. i am not too sure about that. mr. ball. you mean or weeks before november , ? mr. arce. yeah. mr. ball. were you laying floor at that time? mr. arce. yes, sir; we laid floor on the fifth and then we were on the sixth when this happened. mr. ball. did you ever meet a fellow named lee oswald? mr. arce. yeah, he worked with us and he didn't associate with us too much. he was kind of quiet. he didn't like to talk too much to us or anything. mr. ball. you say he worked with you; did he work laying floors? mr. arce. no, he was an order filler; he just worked the same place. mr. ball. did you ever see him on the sixth floor? mr. arce. yeah, quite a few times. mr. ball. ever see him on the first floor? mr. arce. uh-huh. mr. ball. did you ever eat lunch with him? mr. arce. we all eat lunch together in this little domino room. we play dominoes and eat our lunch. he might walk in and lay around with us and he would walk out. he didn't stay in there too long. i guess he didn't like crowds. mr. ball. on the d of november, what time did you go to work? mr. arce. we start at eight but i believe i was a little late. mr. ball. you went to work on what floor? mr. arce. sixth. mr. ball. did you work there all morning? mr. arce. yes, sir. mr. ball. what time did you get off work? mr. arce. that day? mr. ball. at noon for your lunch hour or your lunch period? mr. arce. what time we left down for lunch? mr. ball. yes. mr. arce. we usually leave down about to , something around there. mr. ball. how did you go down stairs? mr. arce. by the elevator. mr. ball. did you have sort of a race that day, do you remember? mr. arce. yeah. mr. ball. tell me about it. mr. arce. well, me and bonnie ray and, i am not too sure, i believe it was billy lovelady, were on the same elevator, and charles givens and the other guys were on the other one and we were racing down. mr. ball. which elevator were you on? mr. arce. we have two of them that go up, the same deal and i was on the one facing east. there's an east and a west elevator and i was in the one facing east. mr. ball. did you see lee oswald or hear him speak on the way down? mr. arce. yeah, he was up there and i believe someone asked if he wanted to go down. mr. ball. he was there--on what floor? mr. arce. that's what i'm not too sure; i believe he was on five or the sixth floor. i am not too sure but we were going down and i believe he was on the fifth; i am not too sure. mr. ball. what did you hear? mr. arce. he said "you all close the door on the elevator, i will be down," or somethin'. i didn't pay too much attention. he said to leave the elevator come down. mr. ball. did you ever see him around there after that? mr. arce. no, i didn't see him around after that. mr. ball. did you have lunch? mr. arce. yeah. mr. ball. where? mr. arce. in that little domino room there. mr. ball. where did you go after that? mr. arce. i went outside. mr. ball. with whom? mr. arce. with billy lovelady and mr. shelley and i was out there with junior. mr. ball. who is junior? mr. arce. i don't know his real name; i just know him by junior. mr. ball. was bonnie ray williams ever out there with you? mr. arce. no, he stayed upstairs with hank. junior stayed up there but he was down a little while and i guess he went upstairs. mr. ball. what about givens? mr. arce. he was down there with shields, i guess--i mean melvin--no, carl, that's who he was with. mr. ball. what about jack dougherty? mr. arce. he was on all floors; i couldn't tell you where he was. mr. ball. was he outside? mr. arce. no, he was eating lunch; me and jack dougherty, same time. mr. ball. dougherty ate his lunch? mr. arce. yes, sir. mr. ball. did he go outdoors after lunch? mr. arce. i don't know; i didn't see him. mr. ball. who went outdoors with you? mr. arce. bill shelley and billy lovelady; carl was out there and charles givens. mr. ball. you stood there how long before the parade came along? mr. arce. i am not too sure; it was about minutes, somewhere around there. i am not too sure about that. mr. ball. did you see the president go by? mr. arce. yeah, i did. i seen him when he turned the corner and when he went down that underpass thing and i heard them shots and i couldn't see anything. there was a lot of people. mr. ball. where were you standing when you heard the shots? mr. arce. i was standing in front of the texas school book depository. i was on that grassy area part in front. mr. ball. you were not on the sidewalk? mr. arce. no, i was on the sidewalk, then i walked up to the grass to get a higher view and still couldn't see. mr. ball. did you hear shots? mr. arce. yeah. mr. ball. how many? mr. arce. three. mr. ball. where did you make out the direction of the sound? mr. arce. yeah, i thought they came from the railroad tracks to the west of the texas school book depository. mr. ball. when you were on the grass, were you south where you were? where were you with reference to the entrance to the texas school book depository? mr. arce. i was down to the west side, a little more to the west. mr. ball. were you west of the building itself? mr. arce. yeah. mr. ball. you were not in front of the building? mr. arce. i was directly in front, but then i walked a few steps down to the west side. mr. ball. where were you with reference to the west wall of the building? mr. arce. oh, i was way far from it. i was across the street, i mean. mr. ball. what do you mean "across the street"? mr. arce. well, there's a little sidewalk right across the street and there's some grass and things up there and that's where i was at. i couldn't tell you exactly where i was, see, it's hard to explain. mr. ball. well, you say you were not in front of the building? mr. arce. well, not directly, not in front; i was across the street. mr. ball. and were you west of the west wall of the building? mr. arce. well, i was, well the building---- mr. ball. i understand but you were to the south of the building. you had to be south of the building, didn't you? mr. arce. well, i was south but i was, well, i guess you could say i was in front of the building but not directly in front, well, i don't know how to explain it. mr. ball. who was standing with you? mr. arce. well, i walked away from the other guys because they were all in front of the building and i went across the street to get a closer view. mr. ball. you walked which direction? mr. arce. i just--right across the street. mr. ball. right across elm street? mr. arce. uh-huh. mr. ball. the part of elm that dead ends there? mr. arce. yeah. mr. ball. you crossed that and went on to the grassy part? mr. arce. uh-huh. mr. ball. now, it sounded to you that the shots came from what direction? mr. arce. from the tracks on the west deal. mr. ball. how many shots did you hear? mr. arce. three. mr. ball. did you look back at the building? mr. arce. no, i didn't think they came from there. i just looked directly to the railroad tracks and all the people started running up there and i just ran along with them. mr. ball. did you go up to the railroad tracks? mr. arce. yeah. mr. ball. did you see anything up there? mr. arce. no, and they told us go back there and i went back inside the building. mr. ball. where did you go then? mr. arce. back inside the building. mr. ball. how long did you stay in there? mr. arce. oh, about minutes and they took us down to city hall to make statements out. mr. ball. then you made out your statement? mr. arce. yes, sir; to the police department. mr. ball. well, just i minute, let's see---- mr. arce. i helped this old man, this gentleman in there. mr. ball. you saw an old man? mr. arce. yeah. mr. ball. where? mr. arce. right in front of the texas school book depository. mr. ball. when? mr. arce. right, you know, it was before it happened; i don't know. mr. ball. how long before the president went by? mr. arce. i don't know. i think it was about minutes, some place around there, minutes; i'm not too sure. mr. ball. what about the old man; what was noticeable about him? mr. arce. well, he said he had kidney trouble, could i direct him to the men's room and i said i would and i helped him up the steps and walked him into the restroom and i opened the door for him and that's when i went inside to eat my lunch and then i seen him walk out. mr. ball. did you see him talk to anyone in there? mr. arce. no; he went straight out. mr. ball. was he in a car? mr. arce. yeah, after i went outside i seen him driving out in a black car. mr. ball. he drove away? mr. arce. yes, sir. mr. ball. did you ever see him again? mr. arce. no, never seen him again. mr. ball. just i minute, i want to show you a picture. i show you commission exhibit no. . i show you this picture. see this man in this picture? mr. arce. yeah. mr. ball. recognize him? mr. arce. yes, that's billy lovelady. mr. ball. just to identify it clearly, the man on the steps--well, you see the man on the steps, do you not? mr. arce. yes, sir. mr. ball. he is a white man, isn't he? mr. arce. yes, sir. mr. ball. and you see his picture just above the picture of two colored people, is that correct; would you describe it like that? mr. arce. yes, sir. mr. ball. i am not going to mark this purposely because other witnesses have to see it. mr. arce. yes. mr. ball. did you say that is billy lovelady? mr. arce. yes, that is billy lovelady. mr. ball. now, there is only one face that is clearly shown within the entrance-way of the texas school book depository building, isn't there? mr. arce. yes, sir. mr. ball. and only one face of a person who is standing on the steps of the depository building entrance? mr. arce. yeah. mr. ball. and that one man you see there---- mr. arce. yes, that's billy lovelady. mr. ball. when you came to work that morning, danny---- mr. arce. yeah. mr. ball. was oswald there at the time? mr. arce. i believe i seen him once that morning on the first floor, some place around there. i'm not too sure. mr. ball. but did you see him go into the building? mr. arce. no, sir; i didn't. mr. ball. did you ever see him have in his possession any paper bag or sack that day? mr. arce. no, sir; i didn't see him. mr. ball. this will be written up and you will have an opportunity to read it and sign it if you wish or you can waive signature. which do you wish? if you waive signature, you don't have to come back. which do you prefer? do either one. mr. arce. i don't understand too well. mr. ball. she writes this up. then if you wish, you can come in, read it over and, if there are any changes to be made, you make them and you swear to it before this young lady, who is a notary public, or you can waive signature and we will send it on to the commission. mr. arce. i guess you all could send it on to the commission. mr. ball. and you waive signature? mr. arce. yes. mr. ball. thanks very much for coming in. testimony of joe r. molina the testimony of joe r. molina was taken at : p.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by messrs. joseph a. ball and samuel a. stern, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. ball. would you rise and raise your right hand, mr. molina? (witness complying.) mr. ball. do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. molina. i do. mr. ball. will you state your name, please? mr. molina. joe r. molina. mr. ball. what is your address? mr. molina. brown. mr. ball. tell me something about yourself; where were you born? mr. molina. i was born here in dallas. mr. ball. what was your education? mr. molina. well, i went to crozier tech high school and i finished after i came back from the service and at that time my intention was to go to college but i got married and instead went to business college. then later on after attending about months business college, i had to find a job because my wife was expecting a baby, consequently, i started working on-the-job training at the texas school book depository. mr. ball. about what date? mr. molina. i started working in february of . mr. ball. how long have you been working there? mr. molina. years. mr. ball. years? mr. molina. yes, sir. mr. ball. now, you wrote the commission a letter asking to testify, didn't you? mr. molina. yes. mr. ball. how did you happen to do that? mr. molina. well, i called in. i didn't know whether i was going to be called or not and they told me, you know, that i should write a letter and ask the commission, you know. (letter marked molina exhibit a.) mr. ball. you wanted to be heard, is that right, before the commission? mr. molina. yes, sir. mr. ball. did you have something particularly you wanted to tell us? mr. molina. yes, sir. mr. ball. what is that? mr. molina. well, on november d following the assassination, i was paid a visit by the local police department at : in the morning and they sort of wanted to tie me up with this case in some way or another and they thought that i was implicated. mr. ball. what makes you think they thought you were implicated? mr. molina. well, they were looking for something. i don't know what it was they were looking for in the house. mr. ball. they came to your house here in dallas? mr. molina. that's right, woke up my wife and children; scared my wife half to death. mr. ball. did they search the house? mr. molina. yes. mr. ball. did they have a search warrant? mr. molina. i don't know whether they did or not. mr. ball. did they tell you what they were looking for? mr. molina. no. mr. ball. then what happened? mr. molina. well, they asked me questions whether i knew different persons that belong to the g.i. forum---- mr. ball. to what? mr. molina. g.i. forum, this club i belonged to here in dallas. mr. ball. how do you spell that? mr. molina. g.i. f-o-r-u-m [spelling]. mr. ball. g.i. f-o-r-u-m [spelling] in dallas? mr. molina. yes. mr. ball. who was it that asked you that? mr. molina. well, i think it was mr. garroway did most of the questioning and police lieutenant revill, i believe--yeah, that was his name. mr. ball. what did they ask you? mr. molina. they asked me if i knew certain persons that had come into the forum when it was first initiated and if i was acquainted with them and if i associated with them, so forth and so on. i said my activities were limited to the club. i didn't have any social, you know, i wasn't intimate with them but merely a club that was started. i was asked by my pastor to go see about this particular club which i did and consequently, the club met at the church auditorium after it was founded and one of the parish priests was a chaplain. mr. ball. was it a catholic, roman catholic organization? mr. molina. the g.i. forum? mr. ball. yes. mr. molina. no; the forum is a veterans' club. mr. ball. what else happened? mr. molina. well, after the police came, they didn't know whether--they were undecided what to do, whether they would take me in for questioning or not and so they decided evidently, since i told them--they asked me if they could take a look around. i said "sure, i don't have anything to hide, look around". they looked around and did a lot of searching and my wife started to get back in bed. she didn't know that was going on. she thought they just want to question me and they told her she had to get out of bed and go into the living room and the kids were in the back room. i only have two bedrooms and the kids were sleeping out there. they woke up the kids; they were looking in their room, so they started questioning the kids, too. they started to ask me questions and ask the kids about it. in other words, to corroborate our statements. i didn't know at the time they were doing it but later on found out. they couldn't find anything. i knew they wouldn't find anything. i didn't know what they were looking for in the first place. they decided to bring me down to the dallas police department for questioning. mr. ball. did you go down to the police department? mr. molina. well, they asked me if i would go down the next morning and i said yes, i would go down the next morning. i would rather go down the next morning than now. it was already past , so the next morning my wife drove me down. i got there about . my wife drove me down and i got there about : . the place was full of television people and reporters swarming all over the place and they told me to wait in the room there and then i went into chief gannaway's office or whatever his name is. he said i was supposed to be questioned by mr. fritz down there but that he wanted to talk to me after they questioned me up there because they wanted to know more about the g.i. forum so i said "i will come back when they get through questioning me." so i went up there and they told me to wait in an office and so i waited there for about , minutes and, oh, must have been longer than that, they finally questioned me and they put me in a room and there was a man from the fbi or secret service, i don't recall which one it was. he was sitting on my right and there was a fellow from the dallas police department taking a statement and a fellow from the fbi introduced himself, said i'm so and so, show me his badge and so forth. the other fellow didn't say who he was or anything, just sat there and so then they told me to wait there in that room and i did. i was there for about minutes and then the fellow came back from the fbi, said "my god, are you still in here?" i said "yes," he said "how long you been here?" here it was about or o'clock. i said "i have been here since about ; i haven't eaten lunch or haven't had a drink of water". you know, i was just there and which he told this fellow, said "can't you let him go; he has been here. he has already given his testimony statement, whatever he is going to give; you should let him go." this fellow said "no, he got to wait in there" so i had to go back in there; about or minutes later, they came back and i went up to the office of lieutenant revill and he started asking a lot of questions about the g.i. forum, did i know such and such fellow--some i knew, they had been in the club. naturally, i knew them though we weren't intimate friends, some were, some weren't. then he gave me a bunch of names, i imagine they were in their so-called subversive files that they claim they have; of course, i didn't know a lot of them. in fact, i didn't know most of them. i knew some of the names. i didn't know some of the names they mentioned are kept in their files or not. anyhow, they asked me--i had to--they didn't ask me--i had to just ask to sign a statement i belonged to the forum and certain members were charter members of the forum and i said yes, i would sign it. i didn't see anything wrong with it so i signed it and they told me i could go home. it was : or and they asked me if i had a ride home and i said no. they said "well, we'll give you a ride home, so one of the officers there, plainclothes man, drove me home. when i got home, of course, there were about three or four cars at the house. my wife was all shook up and she said "my god" she said "don't you know what they been saying about you?" i said "no, i don't know what they are saying about me." she said "don't you know you been on tv and the news media across the nation saying you are on the so-called list with the dallas police department claiming that you associate with persons of"--see if i can quote it right--i was known to associate with persons of subversive background. mr. ball. that was on tv? mr. molina. oh, yes. mr. ball. who put that on tv? mr. molina. it was a statement made by chief curry. mr. ball. by whom? mr. molina. chief curry and i says "no, i didn't know anything about it. i was just being questioned." they said "well, did you tell them to release your name?" i said "i don't know who gave my name out, gave out the information." so, they were very concerned because at first, i didn't think it was--i figured they would make a retraction and i would be cleared, so forth and so on and nothing came out on the radio and nothing was said and i called the police department and told them i wanted to talk to chief curry and they said he was busy. i was talking to, i think someone, fellow named king. he answered the phone and he said any retraction has to come from chief curry. i called the associated press which released the statement to the news media and they wouldn't give me any satisfaction. they told me i would have to get in touch with some fellow in new york or something like that, so that was--i couldn't get any satisfaction. i was accused of something i didn't know anything about. mr. ball. did they ever give you a retraction? mr. molina. no. mr. ball. well, now---- mr. molina. and, consequently, well, that happened on november d; my boss was very upset about it. he said that the vice president of the company, mr. campbell, they didn't say anything to me, they didn't come to me and say "joe, we will stand by you, we don't believe it." nothing was said for about days so i went in and told them, i said, "you don't have to be afraid, i'm going to get this thing cleared. i am going to find somebody to clear me of this." they said "you better do it very fast because the president is very upset about it and we have been getting a lot of calls and several people calling in and saying he hires subversives" and so forth and so on. i saw one letter did say that. it came to them from some fellow said he wasn't going to do business with that book firm because they hired communists. i knew they were probably under pressure. well, on december , they called me in and said they wanted to talk with me and they told me that due to automation i was going to have to be replaced. that happened in december , about weeks afterwards so i told them i said "i don't really think that's the reason why you're letting me go, it's probably because of this other thing." he said "no, we got automation here, we are taking too much business in so we have to let you go." no news was ever given to me there was no machines for replacement, nothing, so i said--well, i didn't leave until december and got all the routine work i had been assigned was gradually shifted to another person. i was there doing nothing. i finally left december and i have received a letter from a friend in california saying my name was in the paper stating that i had been labeled as a communist and i got a call from florida, from a good friend of mine saying they labeled me a communist and saying i was a friend of oswald's. mr. ball. did you know him? mr. molina. oswald? mr. ball. yes. mr. molina. no; i had seen him there in the building. i had seen him but never talked with him or been introduced. mr. ball. where are you working now? mr. molina. i am working over here--that's another thing. i couldn't find a job. who is going to hire me? so i called this friend of mine he belonged to the dads club where i go to church, holy trinity. his name is mr. redman, vice president at neuhoff's. i called him about a job and he said "no, i don't have anything in your line of work." i happened to mention to him i used to do credit union work and at that time they happened to be looking for a man and that's the reason i found this particular job. mr. ball. you are working at neuhoff's employees credit union? mr. molina. yes. mr. ball. are you a bookkeeper; is that what you usually do is bookkeeping? mr. molina. yes. mr. ball. did you pursue it any further; did you file any actions of any sort? mr. molina. i have an attorney that is working towards something. mr. ball. you went to work what date---- mr. molina. i went to work in february . mr. ball. for the texas school book depository at that time. mr. molina. yes; at that time they were located at pacific. mr. ball. now, november , , the place you worked was in the second floor of this school book depository building? mr. molina. yes, sir. mr. ball. did you go out on the street to see the motorcade? mr. molina. yes; i was standing on the front steps. mr. ball. with whom? mr. molina. right next left of me was mr. williams and close to there was mrs. sanders. mr. ball. pauline sanders? mr. molina. yes. mr. ball. did you see roy truly? mr. molina. yes; he was standing with mr. campbell; they were going out to lunch. mr. ball. they were in front of you were they? mr. molina. yes. mr. ball. you saw the president's car pass? mr. molina. yes. mr. ball. did you see anything after that? mr. molina. well, i heard the shots. mr. ball. where--what was the source of the sound? mr. molina. sort of like it reverberated, sort of kind of came from the west side; that was the first impression i got. of course, the first shot was fired then there was an interval between the first and second longer than the second and third. mr. ball. what did you do after that? mr. molina. well, i just stood there, everybody was running and i didn't know what to do actually, because what could i do. i was just shocked. mr. ball. did anybody say anything? mr. molina. yes, this fellow come to me--mr. williams said, somebody said, somebody was shooting at the president, somebody, i don't know who it was. there was some shooting, you know, and this fellow said "what can anybody gain by that"; he just shook his head and i just stood there and shook my head. i didn't want to think what was happening, you know, but i wanted to find out so i went down to where the grassy slope is, you know, and i was trying to gather pieces of conversation of the people that had been close by there and somebody said "well, the president has been shot and i think they shot somebody else", something like that. mr. ball. did you see mr. truly go into the building? mr. molina. yes. mr. ball. where were you when you saw him go into the building? mr. molina. i was right in the entrance. mr. ball. did you see a police officer with him? mr. molina. i didn't see a police officer. i don't recall seeing a police officer but i did see him go inside. mr. ball. did you see a white-helmeted police officer any time there in the entrance? mr. molina. well, of course, there might have been one after they secured the building, you know. mr. ball. no, i mean when truly went in; did you see truly actually go into the building? mr. molina. i saw him go in. mr. ball. where were you standing? mr. molina. right at the front door; right at the front door. mr. ball. outside the front door? mr. molina. yes, outside the front door i was standing; the door was right behind me. mr. ball. were you standing on the steps? mr. molina. yes, on the uppermost step. mr. ball. you actually saw truly go in? mr. molina. yeah. mr. ball. you were still standing there? mr. molina. yes. mr. ball. how long was it after you heard the shots? mr. molina. oh, i would venture to say maybe or seconds afterwards. mr. ball. had somebody come up and said the president was shot before you saw truly go in? mr. molina. no. mr. ball. do you know a girl named gloria calvary? mr. molina. yes. mr. ball. did gloria come up? mr. molina. yes, she came. i was in the lobby standing there and she came in with this other girl. mr. ball. what did she say? mr. molina. she said "oh, my god, joe, he's been shot." they were both horrified. i said "are you sure he was shot?" she said "oh, joe, i'm sure. i saw his hair fly up and i'm sure he was shot" something to that extent. mr. ball. you left the building that day about what time and went home? mr. molina. oh, it must have been around, i would say, i would say it was about , maybe a little before that, i don't know. mr. ball. had you ever seen lee oswald? mr. molina. i had seen him in the building, yes, sir. mr. ball. did you ever speak to him? mr. molina. no; i never spoke to him. mr. ball. did you see him at all on november d? mr. molina. i never did see him. mr. ball. did you see any strangers in the building on that day november d? mr. molina. no; like i stated before, i came in at--to work at in the morning because i had a key and i was on the second floor all the time, never did leave except maybe to go to the restroom, something like that. then i ate my lunch, took my lunch and ate it and went downstairs about : . mr. ball. okay, thanks very much, mr. molina. this will be written up for your signature if you wish; you can come in and sign it or you can waive your signature, whichever you wish. if you wish to sign it, this young lady will notify you when it is typed and you can come in, read it, and sign it. mr. molina. i just wanted to state in the record that i want to deny any accusations if there is any doubt in anybody's mind. mr. ball. no; there is nobody i ever heard has accused you of anything. mr. molina. i know there's a fella that i talk with that belongs to the or had worked with the fbi that knows my position in this thing. mr. ball. i never heard anybody accuse you of any wrongdoing in connection with this matter. mr. molina. in fact, bill lowery worked with the fbi. mr. ball. you don't have to worry about that; no one is accusing you of anything. mr. molina. except the local people here. mr. ball. do you want to sign it or do you want to waive your signature; how do you feel about it? it's your option; you can do either way. mr. molina. well, i would like to. mr. ball. see it and sign it? mr. molina. see it and sign it. mr. ball. she will notify you then. she will tell you when to come in. mr. molina. thanks very much. testimony of jack edwin dougherty the testimony of jack edwin dougherty was taken at : a.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. joseph a. ball, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. ball. do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before the commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. dougherty. i do. mr. ball. will you state your name and address for the record? mr. dougherty. jack edwin dougherty. mr. ball. and your address? mr. dougherty. south marsalis. mr. ball. how old are you? mr. dougherty. forty. mr. ball. where were you born? mr. dougherty. here in dallas. mr. ball. where did you go to school? mr. dougherty. sunset high school. mr. ball. you went through sunset high school? mr. dougherty. yes, sir. mr. ball. what year did you get out of high school? about? mr. dougherty. oh, . mr. ball. ? mr. dougherty. yes. mr. ball. what kind of work did you do after that? mr. dougherty. well, of course, a year or so, you might say--just work in grocery stores until i was and volunteered for the armed services in october--october , . mr. ball. how long were you in the service? mr. dougherty. years, month, days, to be exact. mr. ball. and you were discharged from the service, then, after the war, was it? mr. dougherty. yes, sir. mr. ball. what did you do during the service--during your period in the service? mr. dougherty. well, you might say just about a little bit of everything, from guard duty to---- mr. ball. did you have any active service? mr. dougherty. well, no--i volunteered for active service, but they said you couldn't very well volunteer--you have to be drafted, so they said, they told me at the time. mr. ball. did you ever leave the united states during the war? mr. dougherty. oh, yes. mr. ball. where did you go? mr. dougherty. well, i was stationed, oh, for about a year up in indiana up there--seymour, ind. mr. ball. then where did you go from there in the service? mr. dougherty. well, i stayed there until i got discharged. mr. ball. you didn't ever go outside the country to europe? mr. dougherty. oh, no. mr. ball. or to the south seas? mr. dougherty. no. mr. ball. you stayed in this country all the time? mr. dougherty. yes. mr. ball. now, did you ever have any difficulty with your speech? mr. dougherty. no. mr. ball. you never had any? mr. dougherty. no. mr. ball. did you ever have any difficulty in the army with any medical treatment or anything of that sort? mr. dougherty. no. mr. ball. none at all? mr. dougherty. no. mr. ball. what did you do after you got out of the army? mr. dougherty. well, jobs were pretty scarce about the time i got out of the service, so i just went from place to place and applied and put my application in, so i started over here at the texas school book depository and put my application in there and i got it through the suburban employment agency, and i been working there ever since. mr. ball. and that was when--in , was it, you started to work at the texas school book depository? mr. dougherty. september , . mr. ball. what? mr. dougherty. let's see, i have been with them years--that would be---- mr. ball. that would be , wouldn't it? mr. dougherty. yes--that's . mr. ball. ? mr. dougherty. yes; that's right, to be exact. mr. ball. what did you do between the time you got out of the service and ? mr. dougherty. well, i didn't do anything to be frank with you. mr. ball. you didn't? mr. dougherty. no. mr. ball. you didn't work? mr. dougherty. oh, no. mr. ball. you stayed at home? mr. dougherty. no, sir. mr. ball. did you live with your father and mother? mr. dougherty. yes. mr. ball. have you ever been married? mr. dougherty. no. mr. ball. and you still live with your father and mother? mr. dougherty. yes. mr. ball. now, what kind of work have you been doing at the texas school book depository in the last few years? mr. dougherty. oh--shipping clerk. mr. ball. and what kind of work is that? mr. dougherty. well, that's when they bring the orders from on the second floor, and in other words, you fill them from the--they are orders, i guess you would call them orders, to fill from there, and outside of doing little odd jobs besides that--that's it. mr. ball. did you know a fellow named lee harvey oswald that worked at the texas school book depository? mr. dougherty. well, i'll be frank with you, mr. ball, i don't believe nobody knew him too well. you might say he wouldn't have too much to say to anybody. he just stayed all to hisself, and i'll be frank with you, i just flat didn't know him. mr. ball. now, on november , , that's the day the president was shot? mr. dougherty. yes, sir. mr. ball. what time did you go to work? mr. dougherty. well, i got there--it was after o'clock in the morning. mr. ball. do you usually get there in the morning at o'clock? mr. dougherty. yes. mr. ball. why do you get there at instead of , when the rest of the men get there? mr. dougherty. well, you might say, i have a little--extra chores to do. mr. ball. you do that--you get there at all the time, don't you? mr. dougherty. yes, i've been doing it for years. mr. ball. that's what mr. truly told me, that you get there real early. mr. dougherty. yes. mr. ball. and you did get there about that morning? mr. dougherty. yes. mr. ball. let's see, mr. dougherty, you said that you have some extra chores--what are those extra chores? mr. dougherty. i have to see to it that the water system is pumped up. in other words, the air pressure is up to where--up to pounds so that if it isn't pumped up, the alarm goes off, and the adt runs that alarm system, and we immediately call mr. truly and of course they call me. mr. ball. what is the adt? mr. dougherty. that's that--i don't know too much about it--it has something to do with the alarm system they have got down there. mr. ball. you mean the pressure, do you? mr. dougherty. yes. mr. ball. is that a fire-alarm system? mr. dougherty. yes--you could call it that. mr. ball. now, what else do you do there early in the morning? mr. dougherty. well, let's see, i have to check and see that there is no leaks in the building, that the pipes are not leaking somewhere. mr. ball. anything else you do? mr. dougherty. no; i believe that just about covers it. mr. ball. what time do you usually go to lunch? mr. dougherty. well, usually about o'clock or noon. mr. ball. do you carry your lunch most of the time from home? mr. dougherty. yes. mr. ball. and where do you usually eat your lunch? mr. dougherty. well, they have got what they call a domino room in there and i usually eat it in there. mr. ball. you usually eat your lunch in the domino room? mr. dougherty. yes. mr. ball. and how long do you take for lunch? mr. dougherty. well, from to : . mr. ball. forty-five minutes? mr. dougherty. yes. mr. ball. do you always take a full hour? mr. dougherty. yes; i usually do. mr. ball. now, do you remember the day of november , ; you do, don't you? mr. dougherty. yes. mr. ball. the day that the president was shot? mr. dougherty. yes. mr. ball. do you remember what time you went to work that day? mr. dougherty. yes--let's see--it was : . mr. ball. what time did you go to work that morning? mr. dougherty. well, that particular morning--let's see, we didn't go back. mr. ball. no; i mean, what time did you go to work the first thing in the morning? mr. dougherty. it was o'clock when we were actually started to work. mr. ball. what time did you get to the building? mr. dougherty. at a quarter to . mr. ball. at a quarter to ? mr. dougherty. yes. mr. ball. you told the fbi officers that you got there about o'clock. mr. dougherty. well, i mean, inside the building. mr. ball. inside the building? mr. dougherty. yes--when i got inside the building it was o'clock. mr. ball. you parked your car? mr. dougherty. i don't have a car--i have to ride the bus. mr. ball. did you see oswald come to work that morning? mr. dougherty. yes--when he first come into the door. mr. ball. when he came in the door? mr. dougherty. yes. mr. ball. did you see him come in the door? mr. dougherty. yes; i saw him when he first come in the door--yes. mr. ball. did he have anything in his hands or arms? mr. dougherty. well, not that i could see of. mr. ball. about what time of day was that? mr. dougherty. that was o'clock. mr. ball. that was about o'clock? mr. dougherty. yes, sir. mr. ball. what door did he come in? mr. dougherty. well, he came in the back door. mr. ball. where were you then? mr. dougherty. i was--sitting on top of the wrapping table. mr. ball. now, do you remember that you gave a statement to the federal bureau of investigation and to a man by the name of ellington, or a mr. anderton, the day after--the d of november? mr. dougherty. yes--i talked to so many of them--it is kind of hard to remember. mr. ball. and there is a statement that they took when they talked to you and in it you said, "i recall vaguely, having seen lee oswald, when he came to work at about a.m. today." mr. dougherty. i did--that morning. mr. ball. that seems to be dated the d day of november . mr. dougherty. that's right. mr. ball. the full statement is, "i am employed by the texas school book depository, elm street, dallas, as an order filler, and reside at south marsalis street, dallas, tex." did you tell them that? mr. dougherty. yes, sir. mr. ball. "i started to work today, - - , at about a.m. o'clock." did you tell them that? mr. dougherty. yes. mr. ball. the statement says, "i recall vaguely having seen lee oswald, when he came to work at about a.m. today." mr. dougherty. that's right. mr. ball. now, is that a very definite impression that you saw him that morning when he came to work? mr. dougherty. well, oh--it's like this--i'll try to explain it to you this way--you see, i was sitting on the wrapping table and when he came in the door, i just caught him out of the corner of my eye--that's the reason why i said it that way. mr. ball. did he come in with anybody? mr. dougherty. no. mr. ball. he was alone? mr. dougherty. yes; he was alone. mr. ball. do you recall him having anything in his hand? mr. dougherty. well, i didn't see anything, if he did. mr. ball. did you pay enough attention to him, you think, that you would remember whether he did or didn't? mr. dougherty. well, i believe i can--yes, sir--i'll put it this way; i didn't see anything in his hands at the time. mr. ball. in other words, your memory is definite on that, is it? mr. dougherty. yes, sir. mr. ball. in other words, you would say positively he had nothing in his hands? mr. dougherty. i would say that--yes, sir. mr. ball. or, are you guessing? mr. dougherty. i don't think so. mr. ball. you saw him come in the door? mr. dougherty. yes. mr. ball. the back door on the first floor? mr. dougherty. it was in the back door. mr. ball. now, that back door is the door that opens onto what? that back door would be the first floor? mr. dougherty. yes. mr. ball. and it opens where? mr. dougherty. on the back dock--on the back dock side over there. mr. ball. that would be what direction from the first floor--what wall of the first floor--north? mr. dougherty. well, let's see, to be frank with you--i don't know which one it would be. mr. ball. is there only one back door? mr. dougherty. yes; there is only one back door. mr. ball. did you see him again that morning? mr. dougherty. yes; just one more time. mr. ball. where was that? mr. dougherty. that was on the sixth floor. mr. ball. on the sixth floor? mr. dougherty. yes. mr. ball. about what time of day? mr. dougherty. it was about o'clock--that was the last time i saw him. mr. ball. what was he doing up there? mr. dougherty. well, as far as i could tell, he was getting some stock--as far as i could tell. mr. ball. what were you doing there? mr. dougherty. i was getting some stock also. mr. ball. and were there some other workmen up there at the time? mr. dougherty. not that i know of. mr. ball. well, do you remember shelley, dan arce, bonnie williams, bill lovelady, and charlie givens who were working up there that morning--laying floor on the sixth floor? mr. dougherty. oh, yes; they were laying floor--yes, sir. mr. ball. and were they there at the time you were there? mr. dougherty. oh, yes, sir; they were there--yes, sir. mr. ball. is that the same time you saw oswald? mr. dougherty. yes, sir; just about that time. mr. ball. and how long were you on the sixth floor? mr. dougherty. well, just long enough to get some stock. mr. ball. where did you go then? mr. dougherty. i went to the fifth floor. mr. ball. what did you do then? mr. dougherty. well, i went to the fifth floor to get some stock also on the fifth floor. mr. ball. then what did you do? mr. dougherty. then, just about that time--i thought i heard---- mr. ball. wait a minute--did you go to lunch? mr. dougherty. well, i went back downstairs to eat lunch--yes, sir. mr. ball. what time? mr. dougherty. oh, it was o'clock. mr. ball. when you talked to the fbi men, i've got a statement here dated the th of december , a statement from special agent william o. johnson, and he reports that you told him that you saw lee harvey oswald at approximately a.m. when he, oswald, arrived. mr. dougherty. that's right. mr. ball. that you saw oswald again at approximately a.m. on the sixth floor? mr. dougherty. that's right. mr. ball. but you didn't see him again after that, is that your testimony? mr. dougherty. yes. mr. ball. is that the truth? mr. dougherty. that's right. mr. ball. and it also says, this report from mr. johnson, states that you told him that just prior to noon you and five other men were working on the sixth floor. were you? mr. dougherty. yes; we were working on the sixth floor. mr. ball. what were you doing? mr. dougherty. well, i was getting some stock off of the sixth floor. mr. ball. you weren't helping the men lay floor? mr. dougherty. no, sir. mr. ball. did you go down to lunch? mr. dougherty. yes. mr. ball. to what floor? mr. dougherty. the first floor. mr. ball. how did you get down there? mr. dougherty. well--used the elevator. mr. ball. did you go down alone or with someone? mr. dougherty. i went down alone. mr. ball. where did you eat your lunch? mr. dougherty. in the domino room. mr. ball. now, what time did you go back to work? mr. dougherty. oh, at : . mr. ball. did you know that the president was going to pass in a motorcade that noon? mr. dougherty. well, they said something about it. mr. ball. did you intend to go out and watch him? mr. dougherty. well, i would have loved to have went out and watched him but the steps were so crowded--there was no way in the world i could get out there. mr. ball. did you take a look at it--did you go out and take a look at it, or didn't you? mr. dougherty. well--no, sir. mr. ball. now, you were on the first floor in the domino room when you finished your lunch, didn't you? mr. dougherty. yes, sir. mr. ball. and did you stay there any length of time after you finished your lunch? mr. dougherty. no, sir--just a short length of time. mr. ball. then what did you do? mr. dougherty. well, then, i went back to work. mr. ball. and where did you go to work? mr. dougherty. let me see--oh, up to the sixth floor. mr. ball. did you go to the sixth floor? mr. dougherty. yes, sir. mr. ball. about what time? mr. dougherty. oh, it was about : --it was about : . mr. ball. had you heard any shots before that? mr. dougherty. yes--i heard one--it sounded like a backfire. mr. ball. where were you when you heard that shot? mr. dougherty. i was on the fifth floor. mr. ball. you were on the fifth floor? mr. dougherty. yes, sir. mr. ball. now, when you left your lunch, did you go to the fifth floor or the sixth floor to go back to work? mr. dougherty. i went on the fifth floor when i was getting ready to go down to eat lunch. mr. ball. yes; and then what happened? mr. dougherty. well, at that time--i was about feet away---- mr. ball. wait a minute--did you hear the shots before or after you had your lunch? mr. dougherty. before--before i ate my lunch. mr. ball. you heard shots before you ate your lunch? mr. dougherty. let's see--yes, i believe i did. mr. ball. well, now, you remember having your lunch, do you? mr. dougherty. yes. mr. ball. do you remember after you had your lunch, you went back to work that day? mr. dougherty. yes. mr. ball. when you talked on the day this accident happened, on the d of november , in a statement made to the federal bureau of investigation and, mr. dougherty, you told them you went down to the first floor to eat your lunch? mr. dougherty. that's right. mr. ball. and that you went back to work? mr. dougherty. yes, sir. mr. ball. and you told him on the th day of december, mr. johnson, that you went back to work on the sixth floor, and as soon as you arrived on the sixth floor, you went down to the fifth floor to get some stock? mr. dougherty. yes, sir; that's right. mr. ball. and while you were on the fifth floor, you heard a loud noise? mr. dougherty. that's right--it sounded like a car backfiring. mr. ball. and did you hear more than one loud explosion or noise? mr. dougherty. no; that was the only one i heard. mr. ball. you only heard one? mr. dougherty. yes. mr. ball. and where did it sound like it came from? mr. dougherty. it sounded like it came from overhead somewhere. mr. ball. from overhead? mr. dougherty. yes. mr. ball. how did you get to the fifth floor? mr. dougherty. elevator. mr. ball. you were on the fifth floor when you heard this, were you? mr. dougherty. yes. mr. ball. which elevator did you take? mr. dougherty. well, you see, there's one on this side and one on this side--the one on this side is the one i took. mr. ball. well, now, "the one on this side and the one on this side," doesn't mean much when it's written down. mr. dougherty. well, i know it. mr. ball. can you tell me whether it was the east side or the west side elevator? mr. dougherty. east side. mr. ball. is it the one that you punch a button on? mr. dougherty. yes, sir. mr. ball. or the one that you use a control on? mr. dougherty. it's the one you push a button on. mr. ball. the one you push a button on? mr. dougherty. yes, sir. mr. ball. i believe that is the west side, isn't it? mr. dougherty. yes, i believe it is. mr. ball. now, that's the one you took up? mr. dougherty. yes. mr. ball. where did you take that--to what floor? mr. dougherty. i took it up to the sixth floor. mr. ball. then what did you do? mr. dougherty. well, when i got through getting stock off of the sixth floor, i came back down to the fifth floor. mr. ball. what did you do on the fifth floor? mr. dougherty. well, i got some stock. mr. ball. then what happened then? mr. dougherty. well, then immediately i heard a loud noise--it sounded like a car backfiring, and i came back down to the first floor, and i asked eddie piper, i said, "piper, what was that?" i says, "has the president been shot?" he said, "yes." mr. ball. you didn't say--did you say, "has the president been shot?"--you told the fbi agent that you went down to the first floor and you saw a man named eddie piper and asked him if he heard a loud noise. mr. dougherty. i asked him that too. mr. ball. and piper said he had heard three loud noises and told you that somebody had just shot the president; is that right? mr. dougherty. that's right. mr. ball. who mentioned the fact that the president had been shot first--you or eddie piper? mr. dougherty. eddie piper. mr. ball. did you say anything to piper about the president being shot? mr. dougherty. no, sir. mr. ball. when you talked to eddie piper, did you know that the president had been shot? mr. dougherty. no, sir; i didn't know that at the time. mr. ball. when is the first time you heard that the president had been shot? mr. dougherty. when eddie told me that. mr. ball. eddie told you that? mr. dougherty. yes. mr. ball. you told mr. johnson of the federal bureau of investigation that when you were on the fifth floor, you heard a loud noise and it appeared to have come from within the building, but you couldn't tell where--you told him that on the th; did you tell him that? mr. dougherty. yes, sir. mr. ball. on the day that this happened, on the d of november, you told the fbi agents ellington and anderton that you heard "a loud explosion which sounded like a rifle shot coming from the next floor above me." now, did you tell them that it sounded like a rifle shot, coming from the next floor above you, or didn't you? mr. dougherty. well; i believe i told them it sounded like a car backfiring. mr. ball. well, did you tell them it sounded like it was from the floor above you, or didn't you tell them that? mr. dougherty. no. mr. ball. you did not tell them that? mr. dougherty. no. mr. ball. did it sound like it came from the floor above you? mr. dougherty. well, at the time it did--yes. mr. ball. tell me this--when you heard that explosion or whatever it was--that loud noise, where were you on the fifth floor--tell me exactly where you were? mr. dougherty. well, i was about feet from the west elevator--the west side of the elevator. mr. ball. that's the elevator that uses the push button; is that right? mr. dougherty. yes. mr. ball. and what were you doing? mr. dougherty. i was getting some stock. mr. ball. and what did you do then? mr. dougherty. well, i came on back downstairs. mr. ball. how did you come downstairs? mr. dougherty. i used that push button elevator on the west side. mr. ball. did you hear mr. truly yell anything up the elevator shaft? mr. dougherty. i didn't hear anybody yell. mr. ball. or, did you see mr. truly? mr. dougherty. well, when the fbi men--i imagine it was who it was--he showed me his credentials, but he asked me who the manager was, and i told him, "mr. truly." he told me to go find him. well, i didn't know where he was so i started from the first floor and just started looking for him, and by the time i got to the sixth floor, they had found a gun and shells. mr. ball. when you went up to the sixth floor, it was after they found the shotgun and shells? mr. dougherty. yes, sir; and i found out later he was on the fourth floor, which i didn't find. mr. ball. did you ever see a gun around there? mr. dougherty. no, sir; i sure didn't. mr. ball. did you ever see anybody with a gun in the place? mr. dougherty. no, sir. mr. ball. did you see any strangers in the building that day? mr. dougherty. no, sir. mr. ball. did you ever see lee oswald carry any sort of large package? mr. dougherty. well, i didn't, but some of the fellows said they did. mr. ball. who said that? mr. dougherty. well, bill shelley, he told me that he thought he saw him carrying a fairly good-sized package. mr. ball. when did shelley tell you that? mr. dougherty. well, it was--the day after it happened. mr. ball. are you sure you were on the fifth floor when you heard the shots? mr. dougherty. yes, i'm positive. mr. ball. did you see any other employee on the fifth floor? mr. dougherty. no, sir; i didn't see nobody--there wasn't nobody on the fifth floor at all--it was just myself. mr. ball. you told me that just before you heard the shots, you had been on the sixth floor? mr. dougherty. yes. mr. ball. and then you went down to the fifth floor? mr. dougherty. that's right. mr. ball. did you see anybody on the sixth floor when you were there, before you went to the fifth floor? mr. dougherty. oh, yes; i did. mr. ball. who? mr. dougherty. well, there was bill shelley, billy lovelady---- mr. ball. that was in the morning, wasn't it? mr. dougherty. yes. mr. ball. that wasn't after lunch, was it? mr. dougherty. no, sir. mr. ball. after lunch, did you ever see them on the sixth floor? mr. dougherty. no, sir; i didn't. mr. ball. now, did you hear this shot either before or after lunch? mr. dougherty. it was before lunch--it was before lunch. mr. ball. you think it was before lunch you heard the shot? mr. dougherty. i believe it was--yes, sir. mr. ball. and you were alone, were you? mr. dougherty. yes. mr. ball. that's all i have to ask you, and this will be written up and if you would like to come down and read it and sign it, you can, or you can waive your signature. what do you want to do? mr. dougherty. well, whatever you want to do--it doesn't make any difference. mr. ball. would you like to come down and read it over and sign it? mr. dougherty. well, if you've got time i'll sign it now. mr. ball. well, we have to write it up--this has to be written up and it will be so that you can read it. this young lady will notify you and you can come down and read it over and sign it. will you do that? mr. dougherty. all right. mr. ball. and we will mark these statements as dougherty exhibits nos. a, b, and c, and attach them to your deposition. thank you very much, and goodby. mr. dougherty. that's quite all right--thank you. (instruments referred to marked by the reporter as dougherty exhibits nos. a, b, and c, for identification.) testimony of eddie piper the testimony of eddie piper was taken at : a.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. joseph a. ball, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. ball. will you stand up and raise your right hand and be sworn? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before the commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. piper. yes. mr. ball. will you state your name please, mr. piper? mr. piper. eddie piper. mr. ball. and what is your address? mr. piper. - / mccoy. mr. ball. tell me, mr. piper, where you were born and raised. mr. piper. in travis county. mr. ball. texas? mr. piper. yes, sir. mr. ball. where did you go to school? mr. piper. i went to school at manor, tex. mr. ball. how far of school did you go? mr. piper. eighth grade. mr. ball. and what did you do after that? mr. piper. i went to work then. mr. ball. where did you go to work? mr. piper. i went to work doing harvest work, some in oil field in chickasha, okla., and done farm work. mr. ball. have you ever been in the army? mr. piper. no, sir. mr. ball. how old are you? mr. piper. . mr. ball. when did you go to work for the texas school book depository? mr. piper. well, i would say i have been working for them about or years--i'm not sure--i don't know exactly. mr. ball. what kind of work do you do? mr. piper. janitor. mr. ball. have you been janitor ever since you were employed? mr. piper. yes, sir. mr. ball. did you ever know a fellow named lee oswald, that worked there? mr. piper. yes, sir; i know of him. mr. ball. you knew of him? mr. piper. yes. mr. ball. did you know him personally? mr. piper. no, sir. mr. ball. did you ever talk to him? mr. piper. no, sir. mr. ball. did he ever speak to you, say "hello" or anything of that sort? mr. piper. no, sir; if he did, you hardly ever heard him. mr. ball. did you ever speak to him? mr. piper. yes. mr. ball. did he ever reply to you that you can remember? mr. piper. if he did, i didn't ever hear him. he mumbled something and he would just keep walking. mr. ball. on the d of november , you remember that day, don't you? mr. piper. yes. mr. ball. what time did you go to work that day? mr. piper. o'clock. mr. ball. that was your usual time to go to work? mr. piper. yes. mr. ball. and, did you see oswald that morning? mr. piper. yes, sir. mr. ball. where? mr. piper. down on the first floor filling orders. mr. ball. did you ever see him again that day? mr. piper. you mean all day--the rest of the day? mr. ball. yes, sir. mr. piper. no. mr. ball. was that the last time you saw him? mr. piper. just at o'clock. mr. ball. where were you at o'clock? mr. piper. down on the first floor. mr. ball. what was he doing? mr. piper. well, i said to him--"it's about lunch time. i believe i'll go have lunch." so, he says, "yeah"--he mumbled something--i don't know whether he said he was going up or going out, so i got my sandwich off of the radiator and went on back to the first window of the first floor. mr. ball. the first window on the first floor? mr. piper. no, not the first window--but on the first floor about the second window on the first floor. i was intending to sit there so i could see the parade because the street was so crowded with people--i didn't see anything. mr. ball. you said you sat at the second window--that would be what window from the corner? mr. piper. well, from the front door, you know where the front door is--going back right down elm, it's the second window from the corner. mr. ball. you say you sat down there? mr. piper. yes. mr. ball. what did you sit on? mr. piper. on a box. mr. ball. could you see out the window? mr. piper. yes, i could see out the window but i couldn't see anything--too many people. mr. ball. did you eat your lunch there? mr. piper. yes. mr. ball. where were you when the president's motorcade went by? mr. piper. now, i don't know--i was sitting there, i'm sure. mr. ball. when the president went by, where were you sitting? mr. piper. probably sitting there in the same place. mr. ball. did you move from there from the time you had your lunch until the president went by? mr. piper. yes, i moved--when there was a shot, i moved. mr. ball. when there was a shot you moved? mr. piper. yes. mr. ball. from the time you had your lunch until the shot, did you move? mr. piper. no, sir. mr. ball. you were at that window all of the time? mr. piper. all the time. mr. ball. did you ever go up on the sixth floor? mr. piper. no, sir. mr. ball. were you there at any time that day? mr. piper. no, sir. mr. ball. were you above the first floor that day up to the time of the shot? mr. piper. before the shot? mr. ball. yes. mr. piper. yes, sir. mr. ball. where? mr. piper. at o'clock i went to the fourth floor to pick up. mr. ball. you went to the fourth floor? mr. piper. yes, at o'clock. mr. ball. and you worked there for how long? mr. piper. i would just take about or minutes to pick up--not quite that long, to pick up the mail and stuff in the fourth floor office. mr. ball. then what did you do? mr. piper. i came back down to the third floor and picked up and from there to the second and picked up and on to the first floor. mr. ball. is that what you usually did--was pick up? mr. piper. yes, sir; every day. mr. ball. do you do that every day? mr. piper. yes, sir. mr. ball. you pick up mail? mr. piper. yes, sir. mr. ball. you pick up mail from what offices? mr. piper. from--what the name of the office is? mr. ball. the different offices? mr. piper. oh, i pick up mail first--on the fourth floor is scott pharmacy, and i come down on the third floor and i pick up there in the hall, you know, they have a hallway there and they put it out on the table--the packages and the mail, and i pick it up there unless they've got a name on the boards to see them in the office and then i go in the office. that's on the third floor. i come down on the second floor and i pick up for southwestern. i goes in the office and that's the only office i go in there at southwestern. like i say--unless there is anything on the board that says see lon cunningham, and then i go in there. that's on the second floor, and from there back down to the first floor, and i unloads on the table on the first floor and that's when i'm through--i don't go back no more. mr. ball. you do that every day? mr. piper. yes. mr. ball. at a certain time? mr. piper. yes. mr. ball. at what time? mr. piper. at and . mr. ball. now, that day, november , , you picked up the mail on the fourth floor at did you? mr. piper. yes, sir. mr. ball. and then came to the third? mr. piper. yes. mr. ball. and then to the second? mr. piper. yes. mr. ball. and what time did you come to the first floor? mr. piper. well, it was close to--around about--it must have been about : --about : when i came back. mr. ball. did you leave the first floor from then on until lunch time, from : until ? mr. piper. no. mr. ball. what time was it that you spoke to oswald and said you thought you would have your lunch? mr. piper. just about o'clock. mr. ball. and do you remember exactly what he said? mr. piper. no, sir; i don't remember exactly. all i remember him was muttering out something--i didn't know whether he said he was going up or going out. mr. ball. he said something like that? mr. piper. yes--something like that. mr. ball. did you see what he did? mr. piper. no, sir; i didn't. mr. ball. did you see where he went? mr. piper. no, sir; i didn't. mr. ball. you told me that you went to the window? mr. piper. that's right. mr. ball. this is the second window to the right? mr. piper. yes. mr. ball. of the front door--that would be looking toward elm street, is that right? mr. piper. yes. mr. ball. and were you sitting there when you heard the shot? mr. piper. that's right. mr. ball. tell me what you heard? mr. piper. i heard one shot, and then the next shot went off--the one that shot him and i got on up and went on back, back where they make coffee at the end of the counter where i could see what happened and before i could get there, the third shot went off, and i seen the people all running and in a few minutes someone came in the building, and i looked up and it was the bossman and a policeman or someone. mr. ball. you say you heard one shot--you heard two shots and you got up and then what happened, where did you go? mr. piper. i came out to the end of the counter where they make coffee there by the stand. mr. ball. you said you did it so you could see out better? mr. piper. no, sir; i did it to see what time it was--when all this happened--to see what time it was. mr. ball. what time was it? mr. piper. it was about between : --between : and : --something like that, as near as i can remember. mr. ball. could you tell where the shots were coming from? mr. piper. no, sir--i couldn't, not for sure. mr. ball. the direction? mr. piper. no, sir; i couldn't. mr. ball. did you look out the window later? mr. piper. no more--no, sir; i didn't go back to any window. mr. ball. you mentioned you saw truly? mr. piper. i don't know whether it was a policeman or fbi or who it was, but another fellow was with him. mr. ball. and where were you? mr. piper. standing right there where they make coffee. mr. ball. what did they do? mr. piper. he ran in and yelled, "where is the elevator?" and i said, "i don't know, sir, mr. truly." they taken off and went on up the stairway and that's all i know about that. mr. ball. did you at any time go above the fourth floor on that date? mr. piper. no, sir. mr. ball. did you at any time go that day up above the fourth floor? mr. piper. no--no, sir. mr. ball. you never did--either before or after the shots? mr. piper. no, sir. mr. ball. now, that day, you went over to the sheriff's office and made a statement, didn't you? mr. piper. yes, sir--no, sir; not that day. mr. ball. did you the next day? mr. piper. saturday. mr. ball. did you go to the sheriff's department? mr. piper. i went to the county--yes, sir. mr. ball. and did you tell them at any time that you saw lee about o'clock? mr. piper. yes. mr. ball. and that lee said, "i'm going up to eat?" mr. piper. he said either "up" or "out"--that's the way i reported it. mr. ball. that's what you told them? mr. piper. yes, sir. mr. ball. now, on that day, did you tell them that the shots that you heard seemed to come from inside the building? mr. piper. yes, sir. mr. ball. you did tell them that? mr. piper. yes, sir. mr. ball. was that your best impression then? mr. piper. yes; they seemed like they did come from the building, you know, by the vibration of that window--it seemed like nobody had shot in the window from the outside--it might have been coming from the building--is what i figured. mr. ball. you told them that day that you thought it came from inside the building? mr. piper. yes. mr. ball. from inside the building? mr. piper. yes. mr. ball. now, this statement you made to the sheriff's department, i'll show it to you--that's a copy there and is that your signature? mr. piper. yes; that's my signature. mr. ball. we'll attach that as exhibit a to your deposition. (instrument marked by the reporter as "piper exhibit no. a," for identification.) mr. ball. this deposition will be written up and you can come down here and look it over and sign it, if you wish. mr. piper. all right. mr. ball. or, you can waive your signature, just as you wish. do you have any choice--which had you rather do? mr. piper. well, what is supposed to be done--i don't really quite understand? mr. ball. you can do it either way. you see, we are going to write it up--this young lady will write it up and if you want to come down and sign it, you can come down and sign it, or you don't need to sign it. you can waive your signature and we will send it on as it is written up. it is up to you which you would rather do. mr. piper. well, i can sign it, but i don't know when i am supposed to come back to sign it. mr. ball. well, you will be notified. mr. piper. all right. i'll do that. mr. ball. all right, she will call you and ask you to come back and sign it. mr. piper. all right, i'll come back and sign it. mr. ball. all right, thank you very much. mr. piper. thank you. testimony of miss victoria elizabeth adams the testimony of miss victoria elizabeth adams was taken at : p.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. david w. belin, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. belin. do you want to stand and raise your right hand, please. do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? miss adams. i do. mr. belin. all right. would you please state your name? miss adams. victoria elizabeth adams. mr. belin. are you known as vickie adams? miss adams. that's correct. mr. belin. where do you live? miss adams. wenonah, dallas, tex. mr. belin. what is your occupation? miss adams. i am employed as an office survey representative. mr. belin. by whom? miss adams. scott foresman co. mr. belin. where do you work? miss adams. on the fourth floor of the texas school book depository. mr. belin. where? miss adams. elm. mr. belin. that is at the corner of elm and houston? miss adams. that is correct. mr. belin. i might ask how old are you? miss adams. twenty-three. mr. belin. where were you born originally? in texas? miss adams. san francisco, calif. mr. belin. did you go to school in san francisco? miss adams. i attended part of my grammar school and high school in san francisco. mr. belin. were you graduated from high school? miss adams. in san francisco, that's correct. mr. belin. then what did you do? miss adams. following that i entered the ursaline order in st. mary's, ohio, and i left there as a novice in . mr. belin. then what did you do from there? miss adams. i went to atlanta, ga. and taught school at the immaculate heart of mary school. and following that i came to dallas and was employed by the holiday inn central during the summer months, and i obtained a teaching position at st. monica's school here. mr. belin. and you taught at st. monica for some period of time? miss adams. yes; for year. mr. belin. then you went to work for scott foresman? miss adams. i went to work for scott foresman. mr. belin. were you at work on november , ? miss adams. that's correct. mr. belin. were you aware of the fact that the president's motorcade was going to go right by your building? miss adams. yes, sir. mr. belin. how did you learn of this information? miss adams. through newspaper media and also conversation. mr. belin. do you remember when you first read about it in the papers? miss adams. no, sir; i don't. mr. belin. would it have been before november d? miss adams. yes. mr. belin. where were you when the motorcade passed? miss adams. i was at the---- mr. belin. were you inside or outside the building? miss adams. i was inside the building. mr. belin. what floor? miss adams. fourth floor. mr. belin. did you watch the motorcade through a window? miss adams. yes, sir. mr. belin. sometimes that is kind of complicated to try and pick out which window if you are counting from the right or left, so i am going to count from the east side of the building to the west side of the building. now the windows are separate windows, but they are kind of in pairs, so to speak. were you standing on the first pair of windows, either one of those two windows? miss adams. no, sir. mr. belin. counting from the east side, were you standing in the second pair of windows? miss adams. no, sir. mr. belin. from the east side, were you standing in the third pair, of either of those windows? miss adams. yes, sir. mr. belin. now of that third pair, from the east side, would it have been the east window or the west window? miss adams. the west window. mr. belin. so another way, if you don't count in pairs, but count in single units from the east side, you would have been in the sixth window from your left as you were facing out the window, is that correct? miss adams. that's right. mr. belin. were you standing with anyone? miss adams. yes, sir. mr. belin. with whom? miss adams. i was standing with sandra styles, elsie dorman, and dorothy may garner. mr. belin. will you state what you saw, what you did, and what you heard? miss adams. i watched the motorcade come down main, as it turned from main onto houston, and watched it proceed around the corner on elm, and apparently somebody in the crowd called to the late president, because he and his wife both turned abruptly and faced the building, so we had a very good view of both of them. mr. belin. where was their car as you got this good view, had it come directly opposite your window? had it come to that point on elm, or not, if you can remember? miss adams. i believe it was prior, just a second or so prior to that. mr. belin. all right. miss adams. and from our vantage point we were able to see what the president's wife was wearing, the roses in the car, and things that would attract women's attention. then we heard--then we were obstructed from the view. mr. belin. by what? miss adams. a tree. and we heard a shot, and it was a pause, and then a second shot, and then a third shot. it sounded like a firecracker or a cannon at a football game, it seemed as if it came from the right below rather than from the left above. possibly because of the report. and after the third shot, following that, the third shot, i went to the back of the building down the back stairs, and encountered bill shelley and bill lovelady on the first floor on the way out to the houston street dock. mr. belin. when you say on the way out to the houston street dock, you mean now you were on the way out? miss adams. while i was on the way out. mr. belin. was anyone going along with you? miss adams. yes, sir; sandra styles. mr. belin. sometime after the third shot, and i don't want to get into the actual period of time yet, you went back into the stockroom which would be to the north of where your offices are located on the fourth floor, is that correct? miss adams. yes, sir; that's correct. mr. belin. when you got into the stockroom, where did you go? miss adams. i went to the back stairs. mr. belin. are there any other stairs that lead down from the fourth floor other than those back stairs in the rear of the stockroom? miss adams. no, sir. mr. belin. those stairs would be in the northwest corner of the building, is that correct? miss adams. that's correct. mr. belin. you took those stairs. were you walking or running as you went down the stairs? miss. adams. i was running. we were running. mr. belin. what kind of shoes did you have on? miss adams. three-inch heels. mr. belin. you had heels. now, as you were running down the stairs, did you encounter anyone? miss adams. not during the actual running down the stairs; no, sir. mr. belin. after you left the scott foresman office and went into the stockroom, did you see anyone until you got to the stairs on the fourth floor other than the person you were with? miss adams. outside of our office employees; no. mr. belin. would these office employees that you might have seen, all be women? miss adams. yes, sir. mr. belin. then you got to the stairs and you started going down the stairs. you went from the fourth floor to the third floor? miss adams. that's correct? mr. belin. anyone on the stairs then? miss adams. no, sir. mr. belin. let me ask you this. as you got to the stairs on the fourth floor, did you notice whether or not the elevator was running? miss adams. the elevator was not moving. mr. belin. how do you know it was not moving on some other floor? miss adams. because the cables move when the elevator is moved, and this is evidenced because of a wooden grate. mr. belin. by that you mean a wooden door with slats in it that you have to lift up to get on the elevator? miss adams. yes. mr. belin. did you look to see if the elevator was moving? miss adams. it was not; no, sir. mr. belin. it was not moving? miss adams. no. mr. belin. did you happen to see where the elevator might have been located? miss adams. no, sir. mr. belin. as you got to the third door, did you take a look at the elevator again at all, or not, if you remember? miss adams. i can't recall. mr. belin. as you got off the stairs on the third floor, did you see anyone on the third floor? miss adams. no, sir. mr. belin. then you immediately went to the stairs going down from the third to the second? miss adams. that's correct. mr. belin. as you ran down the stairs, did you see anyone on the stairs? miss adams. no, sir. mr. belin. all right. you got down to the second floor. did you see anyone by the second floor? miss adams. no, sir. mr. belin. did you immediately turn and run and keep on running down the stairs towards the first floor? miss adams. yes. mr. belin. when you got to the bottom of the first floor, did you see anyone there as you entered the first floor from the stairway? miss adams. yes, sir. mr. belin. who did you see? miss adams. mr. bill shelley and billy lovelady. mr. belin. where did you see them on the first floor? miss adams. well, this is the stairs, and this is the houston street dock that i went out. they were approximately in this position here, so i don't know how you would describe that. mr. belin. you are looking now at a first floor plan or diagram of the texas school book depository, and you have pointed to a position where you encountered bill lovelady and mr. bill shelley? miss adams. that's correct. mr. belin. it would be slightly east of the front of the east elevator, and probably as far south as the length of the elevator, is that correct? miss adams. yes, sir. mr. belin. i have a document here called commission's exhibit no. , which includes a diagram of the first door, and there is a no. and a circle on it, and i have pointed to a place marked no. on the diagram. is that correct? miss adams. that is approximate. mr. belin. between the time you got off the stairs and the time you got to this point when you say you encountered them, which was somewhat to the south and a little bit east of the front of the east elevator, did you see any other employees there? miss adams. no, sir. mr. belin. any other people prior to the time you saw them? miss adams. no, sir. mr. belin. now when you were running down the stairs on your trip down the stairs, did you hear anyone using the stairs? miss adams. no, sir. mr. belin. did you hear anyone calling for an elevator? miss adams. no, sir. mr. belin. did you see the foreman, roy truly? did you see the superintendent of the warehouse, roy s. truly? miss adams. no, sir; i did not. mr. belin. what about any motorcycle police officers? miss adams. no, sir. mr. belin. now what did you do after you encountered mr. shelley and mr. lovelady? miss adams. i said i believed the president was shot. mr. belin. do you remember what they said? miss adams. nothing. mr. belin. then what did you do? miss adams. i proceeded out to the houston street dock. mr. belin. that would be on this same diagram? it is marked houston street dock, and you went through what would be the north door, which is towards the rear of the first floor, is that correct? and down some stairs towards the rear of the dock? miss adams. that's correct. mr. belin. where did you go from there? miss adams. i proceeded--which way is east and west? mr. belin. east is here. east is towards houston, and west is towards the railroad tracks. you went east or west? towards the railroad tracks or towards houston street? miss adams. i went west towards the tracks. mr. belin. how far west did you go? miss adams. i went approximately yards within the tracks and there was an officer standing there, and he said, "get back to the building." and i said, "but i work here." and he said, "that is tough, get back." i said, "well, was the president shot?" and he said, "i don't know. go back." and i said, "all right." mr. belin. then what did you do? miss adams. i went back, only i went southwest. mr. belin. well, did you come back by way of the street, or did you come back the same entrance you went out? miss adams. no, sir. mr. belin. you went back in through the front entrance, through the front of the building? miss adams. well, i didn't go back in right away. mr. belin. what did you do then? there is a street that would be a continuation of elm street that goes in front of the building, and elm street itself angles into the freeway. did you go back either of those streets? miss adams. yes, sir. i went by the one directly in front of the building. mr. belin. what did you do when you got there? miss adams. when i got there, i happened to look around and noticed several of the employees, and i noticed joe molina, for one, was standing in front of the building, and also avery davis, who works with me, and i said, "what do you think has happened?" and she said, "i don't know." and i said, "i want to find out." i think the president is shot. there was a motorcycle that was parked on the corner of houston and elm directly in front of the east end of the building, and i paused there to listen to the report on the police radio, and they said that shots had been fired which apparently came either from the second floor or the fourth floor window, and so i panicked, as i was at the only open window on the fourth floor. mr. belin. did they say second floor or second floor from the top? miss adams. it said second floor. so then i decided maybe i had better go back into the building, and going up the stairs---- mr. belin. now at this time when you went back into the building, were there any policemen standing in front of the building keeping people out? miss adams. there was an officer on the stairs itself, and he was prohibiting people from entering the building, that is correct. but i told him i worked there. mr. belin. did he let you come back in? miss adams. yes, sir. mr. belin. then what did you do? miss adams. following that, i pushed the button for the passenger elevator, but the power had been cut off on the elevator, so i took the stairs to the second floor. mr. belin. you then went all the way back to the northwest corner of the building and took the same set of stairs you had previously taken to come down, or did you take the stairs by the passenger elevator? miss adams. by the passenger elevator. mr. belin. do those stairs go above floor ? miss adams. no, sir; they didn't. mr. belin. what did you do when you got to the second floor? miss adams. i went into the texas school book depository office and just listened for a few minutes to the people that were congregating there, and decided there wasn't anything interesting going on, and went out and walked around the hall to the freight elevator meaning the one on the northwest corner. mr. belin. would it have been the west or the east? the one nearest the stairs or the other one? miss adams. yes; the one nearest the stairs. mr. belin. then what did you do? miss adams. i went into the elevator which was stopped on the second floor, with two men who were dressed in suit and hats, and i assumed they were plainclothesmen. mr. belin. what did you do then? miss adams. i tried to get the elevator to go to the fourth floor, but it wasn't operating, so the gentlemen lifted the elevator gate and we went out and ran up the stairs to the fourth floor. mr. belin. then you went back to the scott foresman company offices? miss adams. yes, sir. mr. belin. now trying to reconstruct your actions insofar as the time sequence, which we haven't done, what is your best estimate of the time between the time the shots were fired and the time you got back to the building? how much time elapsed? if you have any estimate. maybe you don't have one. miss adams. i would estimate not more than minutes elapsed. mr. belin. is there any particular reason why you make this estimation? miss adams. yes, sir; going down the stairs toward the back, i was running. i ran to the railroad tracks. i moved quickly to the front of the building, paused briefly to talk to someone, listened only to the report of the windows from which the shot supposedly was fired, and returned to the building. mr. belin. how long do you think it was between the time the shots were fired and the time you left the window to start toward the stairway? miss adams. between and seconds, estimated, approximately. mr. belin. how long do you think it was, or do you think it took you to get from the window to the top of the fourth floor stairs? miss adams. i don't think i can answer that question accurately, because the time approximation, without a stopwatch, would be difficult. mr. belin. how long do you think it took you to get from the window to the bottom of the stairs on the first floor? miss adams. i would say no longer than a minute at the most. mr. belin. so you think that from the time you left the window on the fourth floor until the time you got to the stairs at the bottom of the first floor, was approximately minute? miss adams. yes, approximately. mr. belin. as i understand your testimony previously, you saw neither roy truly nor any motorcycle police officer at any time? miss adams. that's correct. mr. belin. you heard no one else running down the stairs? miss adams. correct. mr. belin. when you got to the first floor did you immediately proceed to this point where you say you encountered mr. shelley and mr. lovelady? well, you showed me on a diagram of the first floor that there was a place which was south and somewhat east of the front part of the east elevator that you encountered truly and lovelady? miss adams. i saw them there. mr. belin. i mean; you saw them? miss adams. yes. mr. belin. would that have been a matter of seconds after you got to the bottom of the first floor? miss adams. definitely. mr. belin. less than seconds? miss adams. yes. mr. belin. do you know, or did you know lee harvey oswald either by sight or by name? miss adams. i didn't know lee harvey oswald, per se. i didn't know his name. i recognized him after i saw him on television, as having been with some men, but i had no dealing with him. mr. belin. by that, you mean having been employed with some men by the texas school book depository? miss adams. that's correct. mr. belin. during the trip down the stairs on the way down did you ever encounter lee harvey oswald? miss adams. no, sir. mr. belin. is there any other information that you can think of that might be relevant to anything connected with the assassination? miss adams. at the time i left the building on the houston street dock, there was an officer standing about yards from the curb, and about from the curb across the street from the texas school depository, and about yards from the corner of houston and elm, and when we were running out the dock, going around the building, the officer was standing there, and he didn't encounter us or ask us what we were doing or where we were going, and i don't know if that is pertinent. mr. belin. no one stopped you from getting out of the building when you left? miss adams. that's correct. mr. belin. that is helpful information. is there any other information that you have that could be relevant? miss adams. there was a man that was standing on the corner of houston and elm asking questions there. he was dressed in a suit and a hat, and when i encountered avery davis going down, we asked who he was, because he was questioning people as if he were a police officer, and we noticed him take a colored boy away on a motorcycle, and this man was asking questions very efficaciously, and we said, "i guess he is maybe a reporter," and later on on television, there was a man that looked very similar to him, and he was identified as ruby. and on questioning some police officer, they said they had witnesses to the fact that he was in the dallas morning news at the time. and i don't know whether that is relevant or what. mr. belin. that is all right, we want to get that information down. was this before you got back in the front door of the building that you saw this? miss adams. yes, sir; while i was standing by the motorcycles. mr. belin. is there anything else? miss adams. that is all, i believe. mr. belin. miss adams, you have the opportunity if you would like, to read this deposition and sign it before it goes to washington, or you can waive the signing of it and just let the court reporter send it directly to us. do you have any preference? miss adams. i think i will let you use your own discretion. mr. belin. it doesn't make any difference to us. if it doesn't make any difference, we can waive it and you won't have to make another trip down here. miss adams. that is all right. mr. belin. we want to thank you for your cooperation. we know that it has taken time on your part. would you also thank your employer? miss adams. yes, sir. testimony of geneva l. hine the testimony of geneva l. hine was taken at : p.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by messrs. joseph a. ball and samuel a. stern, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. ball. please stand up and hold up your right hand. do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give the commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? miss hine. i do. mr. ball. will you state your name, please? miss hine. geneva l. hine. mr. ball. where do you live. miss hine. oakdale road in dallas. mr. ball. can you tell me something about yourself; where you were born and raised, and educated and what kind of work you have done. miss. hine. i was born and raised in martinsville, ind., and i graduated from elementary and junior high and high school at that same town. i attended the ball state teachers' college in muncie, ind., and i attended metropolitan bible institute in suffern, n.y., and i received my bachelor of science theology degree from assembly of god college in waxahachie, tex. mr. ball. what did you do after that? miss hine. oh, i have always worked as a one-girl office girl until the job i have now. mr. ball. when did you go to work at the texas school book depository? miss hine. in december . mr. ball. what kind of work do you do there? miss hine. i have the credit desk. mr. ball. now, in november, november , , where was your desk; in what part of the building? miss hine. my desk was on the second floor, the inside wall just along by the corridor. mr. ball. did you spend most of your time at your desk? miss hine. at that time? mr. ball. yes; at that time. miss hine. no, sir; the girls were gone and they wanted to go out and see. mr. ball. i mean did you spend most of your time in your work--it was a desk job? miss hine. yes; that's right. mr. ball. did you go in the other floors of the building any? miss hine. yes, sir; as my duties necessitated i did. mr. ball. did you ever know a fellow named lee harvey oswald? miss hine. yes, sir. mr. ball. when did you first meet him? miss hine. i never met him to know his name but i saw him every day. mr. ball. where did you see him? miss hine. downstairs in the warehouse or stockroom whichever you want to call it. mr. ball. the first floor? miss hine. yes. mr. ball. did you see him on any other floors? miss hine. yes, sir; i saw him on the second floor about noontime almost every day. he would come in and ask for change, for a dime or quarter. mr. ball. did you see him use any part of the second floor? miss hine. no. mr. ball. did you ever see him spend the dime to buy anything with it? miss hine. no, sir; the coke machine isn't in our room and i wouldn't have seen it. mr. ball. where is the coke machine? miss hine. out in the little lunchroom back of our office. mr. ball. did you ever speak to oswald? miss hine. yes, sir. mr. ball. did he ever speak to you? miss hine. no, sir. mr. ball. he never replied to you? miss hine. no, sir. mr. ball. would you say he was unfriendly? miss hine. yes, sir; i would. mr. ball. did you ever see him smile or laugh? miss hine. no, sir. mr. ball. what kind of an expression did he have on his face most of the time? miss hine. i describe it as being stoic. mr. ball. that's a pretty good description if he doesn't smile. miss hine. it was just---- mr. ball. did you ever mention this to any of the people around there about oswald? miss hine. yes, sir; i mentioned it to mr. shelley. mr. ball. what did you tell him? miss hine. one day i said to mr. shelley, "who is that queer duck you have working down here" and i said that just as a matter of slang because i've known mr. shelley for a long time and i was just talking to him, you see, and usually, all the boys that work down there speak to me because i have to go down there to pick up the little "comp" or gift slips on my desk. every time i went by him i would speak to him, say "good morning" and he would never catch or meet my gaze so i just made that remark to mr. shelley because i had spoken to him so many times and he never answered. mr. ball. what did shelley say? miss hine. he said that was just his way. mr. ball. on the d of november , did you know that there was to be a motorcade or parade come by your building? miss hine. oh, yes, sir. mr. ball. how did you find that out? miss hine. sir, i don't remember. i probably heard over the news but i cannot remember. mr. ball. you were just aware of the fact? miss hine. yes; i knew it and the girls were discussing it in the office that morning. many of them, probably six, had not seen the president close. you see, i had seen him on two different occasions and i had been very close to him and so they were lamenting that they couldn't go out so i spoke up and said "i will be glad to answer the telephone so you girls may go out and see the motorcade" and i had previously answered the telephone when we were in the other building before we moved in this building, so they were delighted and i thought nothing about it. mr. ball. did they all go out? miss hine. yes, sir; everyone went out. mr. ball. was there anyone left in the office part of the building on that second floor office? miss hine. only mr. williams and myself and he stayed with me because he was working on his desk until he thought that the motorcade was about there. mr. ball. then he went out? miss hine. when he thought it was about there he said "i think i will go out for minutes." mr. ball. what is his name? miss hine. otis n. williams. mr. ball. he works in the office, too? miss hine. yes. mr. ball. did you have to change your desk over to another desk? miss hine. yes, sir; to the middle desk on the front row. mr. ball. was there a switchboard? miss hine. no, sir; we have a telephone with three incoming lines, then we have the warehouse line and we have an intercom system. mr. ball. you don't have a switchboard? miss hine. not now; we did in the other building. mr. ball. were you alone then at this time? miss hine. yes. mr. ball. did you stay at your desk? miss hine. yes, sir; i was alone until the lights all went out and the phones became dead because the motorcade was coming near us and no one was calling so i got up and thought i could see it from the east window in our office. mr. ball. did you go to the window? miss hine. yes, sir. mr. ball. did you look out? miss hine. yes, sir. mr. ball. what did you see? miss hine. i saw the escort car come first up the middle of houston street. mr. ball. going north on houston street? miss hine. yes, sir; going north on houston street. i saw it turn left and i saw the president's car coming and i saw the president and saw him waving his hand in greeting up in the air and i saw his wife and i saw him turn the corner and after he turned the corner i looked and i saw the next car coming just at the instant i saw the next car coming up was when i heard the shots. mr. ball. how many did you hear? miss hine. three. mr. ball. could you tell where the shots were coming from? miss hine. yes, sir; they came from inside the building. mr. ball. how do you know that? miss hine. because the building vibrated from the result of the explosion coming in. mr. ball. it appeared to you that the shots came from the building? miss hine. yes, sir. mr. ball. did you know they were shots at the time? miss hine. yes, sir; they sounded almost like cannon shots they were so terrific. mr. ball. that is when you were at the window, is that right? miss hine. yes, sir; that is when i was at the window, because the next car, you see, was coming up and turning and i looked. of course i looked when i heard the shots. i just stood there and saw people running to the east up elm street. i saw people running; i saw people falling down, you know, lying down on the sidewalk. mr. ball. that was on houston street? miss hine. no, sir; elm. mr. ball. you could see--could you see any part of elm? miss hine. east, yes, sir. mr. ball. you could see east on elm? miss hine. yes, sir; i could see east on elm. i saw them run across east on elm away from where his car had gone and my first thought was if i could only see what happened, so i went out our front door into the foyer. mr. ball. you mean the front door to the office? miss hine. yes, sir. mr. ball. that opens on---- miss hine. the foyer, little hall, and---- mr. ball. steps lead down? miss hine. yes, sir; but there is a door before the steps and the elevator is to my left and i went past the hall that goes to my right and i knocked on the door of lyons and carnahan; that's a publishing company. mr. ball. what did you do then? miss hine. i tried the door, sir, and it was locked and i couldn't get in and i called, "lee, please let me in," because she's the girl that had that office, mrs. lee watley, and she didn't answer. i don't know if she was there or not, then i left her door. i retraced my steps back to where the hall turns to my left and went down it to southwestern publishing co.'s door and i tried their door and the reason for this was because those windows face out. mr. ball. on to elm? miss hine. yes; and on to the triple underpass. mr. ball. i see. miss hine. and there was a girl in there talking on the telephone and i could hear her but she didn't answer the door. mr. ball. was the door locked? miss hine. yes, sir. mr. ball. that was which company? miss hine. southwestern publishing co. mr. ball. did you call to her? miss hine. i called and called and shook the door and she didn't answer me because she was talking on the telephone; i could hear her. they have a little curtain up and i could see her form through the curtains. i could see her talking and i knew that's what she was doing and then i turned and went through the back hall and came through the back door. mr. ball. of your office, the second floor office? miss hine. yes; and i went straight up to the desk because the telephones were beginning to wink; outside calls were beginning to come in. mr. ball. did they did come in rapidly? miss hine. they did come in rapidly. mr. ball. when you came back in did you see mrs. reid? miss hine. no, sir; i don't believe there was a soul in the office when i came back in right then. mr. ball. did you see anybody else go in through there? miss hine. no, sir; after i answered the telephone then there was about four or five people that came in. mr. ball. was there anybody in that room when you came back in and went to the telephone? miss hine. no, sir; not to my knowledge. mr. ball. did you see mrs. reid come back in? miss hine. yes, sir; i think i felt sure that i did. i thought that there were five or six that came in together. i thought she was one of those. mr. ball. mrs. reid told us she came in alone and when she came in she didn't see anybody there. miss hine. well, it could be that she did, sir. i was talking on the phones and then came the policemen and then came the press. everybody was wanting an outside line and then our vice president came in and he said "the next one that was clear, i have to have it" and so i was busy with the phone. mr. ball. from the time you walked into the room you became immediately busy with the phone? miss hine. yes, sir; sure was. mr. ball. did you see oswald come in? miss hine. my back would have been to the door he was supposed to have come in at. mr. ball. were you facing the door he is supposed to have left by? miss hine. yes, sir. mr. ball. do you recall seeing him? miss hine. no, sir. mr. ball. do you have any definite recollection of mrs. reid coming in? miss hine. no, sir; i only saw four or five people that came by and they all came and were all talking about how terrible it was. mr. ball. do you remember their names? miss hine. yes, sir. mr. ball. who were they? miss hine. mr. williams, mr. molina (spelling), miss martha reid, mrs. reid, mrs. sarah stanton, and mr. campbell; that's all i recall, sir. mr. ball. miss hine, this will be written up and it will be submitted for your signature if you wish, or you can waive signature right now; which do you prefer? do you have any choice? miss hine. well, i would prefer to see it. mr. ball. prefer to see it, all right, then this young lady will inform you to come down, read it, look it over and sign it. miss hine. okay. mr. ball. thanks very much for coming in. miss hine. you are very welcome. testimony of miss doris burns the testimony of miss doris burns was taken at : p.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by messrs. joseph a. ball and samuel a. stern, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. ball. please stand up and hold up your right hand and be sworn. miss burns. (complying). mr. ball. do you solemnly swear the testimony you give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? miss burns. i do. mr. ball. what is your name, please? miss burns. doris burns. mr. ball. what is your address? miss burns. shelby, dallas. mr. ball. what is your occupation? miss burns. i am a correspondent for the macmillan co. mr. ball. where is your office? miss burns. in the texas school book depository building on the third floor. mr. ball. can you tell me something about yourself, where you were born and what your education is, and what your business occupation has been. miss burns. well, i was born in tyler, tex., and i graduated from high school here in dallas and i worked many years for lawyers here. mr. ball. what kind of work? miss burns. well, i was just a legal secretary and worked for vanette hosiery mills, secretary to the president. they are not here any more, i don't think. after that i worked for a geologist. mr. ball. most of your work has been secretarial, has it? miss burns. yes, but at macmillan i mostly compose my own letters. mr. ball. when did you go to work for macmillan? miss burns. april , . am i too fast? mr. ball. she can write as fast as you talk. miss burns. that's wonderful. mr. ball. go right ahead. miss burns. let's see, i've forgotten what else you wanted to know. mr. ball. well, first of all, you went to work in ? miss burns. yes, sir. mr. ball. where is the office of the macmillan co.? miss burns. well, at that time it was on ross and akard; now---- mr. ball. where was it in november ? miss burns. at elm and houston. mr. ball. what part of the building? miss burns. on the third floor, room . mr. ball. are there any windows in those offices? miss burns. yes; they have some windows; they face the west, i guess you would say. they don't overlook the route of the president's---- mr. ball. do they or do they not overlook elm street? miss burns. they do not overlook elm street. mr. ball. they overlook the railroad yards, do they? miss burns. that is right. mr. ball. on november d, what were you doing that day? miss burns. i was listening to the radio as i worked. mr. ball. about noon, did you go to lunch? miss burns. well, i had lunch at the office and then i didn't intend to go see the president, didn't have any desire to but i left about--i don't remember the exact time but, anyway, when i left they said on the radio that he--that the motorcade was coming up, i believe it was cedar springs; anyway, he hadn't been away from the airport long and that he was going about miles an hour so everybody could see him. well, thinking he was going that slowly, i thought i had plenty of time, so i walked up to sanger's. mr. ball. to where? miss burns. sanger's. mr. ball. where is that? miss burns. it's about four blocks up elm street. mr. ball. which way on elm--east? miss burns. east; you see, we are down at the extreme west end of the street; nothing else down there. mr. ball. then what happened? miss burns. i bought some kleenex and came back, and everybody was out on the steps to look, but i didn't stop. i went on back to the office. mr. ball. that is the third floor? miss burns. yes. mr. ball. was anybody in the office? miss burns. yes; mrs. case hadn't ever gone out. she was there. i believe she was the only one. mr. ball. what did you do? miss burns. i listened to the radio, and by that time they said that he was on main and turning at houston or main by the courthouse, so since he was that close, i thought, well, i guess i will go look out the window. i didn't care enough to go downstairs, but i thought i will go look out the window. so i thought i would have plenty of time, if he was just coming around main street, that i could still get around there, so i went around to american book co., which is the office closest to us that had a window looking out on elm. there was nobody in there, so then i started down the hall to allyn and bacon. as i went down this hall towards the windows that looked out on houston street, i heard a shot, but i didn't think much about it. i didn't, of course, know it was a shot because when you hear tires backfire and all, they all sound alike to me, so i didn't think a thing about that. i went around to allyn and bacon, and mr. wilson, the manager, was at the window looking out. he was the only one in there, so i asked him if i could look out the window with him. about that time he said "oh, my god, there's been a shooting." i still didn't think anybody, of course, had been killed, just thought somebody had shot in the air or something, so i said "has the president already passed? and he said "yes," so i looked out and that big bus that had the press in it, had the word "press" or whatever it was on the bus, was passing, so i said "well, i guess i have missed the president then," and i started on back out of the office and i just said as i left, "well, i hope nobody got hurt." mr. ball. you heard how many shots? miss burns. one. mr. ball. just one? miss burns. it must have been the last one because i didn't hear any more. mr. ball. did you have any idea where it was coming from? miss burns. well, it just sounded as though it was back of me. you see, i was going towards houston street. i was facing east and it sounded to me as if it came toward my back. mr. ball. you were in the building? miss burns. yes; i was in the building. mr. ball. walking down the hall? miss burns. walking down the hall going towards allyn and bacon. mr. ball. now, what happened after that? miss burns. i came on back and listened to the radio some more and in a few minutes, why, they told it. mr. ball. did you ever know lee harvey oswald? miss burns. i rode on the elevator with him one time. mr. ball. that's all? miss burns. but i didn't know who he was--about a week before. mr. ball. you never talked to him? miss burns. i never talked to him. mr. ball. who were you with at the time this happened? miss burns. the macmillan co. mr. ball. who was in the office with you? miss burns. mrs. case, but i couldn't see her. mr. ball. she was in the same office? miss burns. i have a private office. she was around the corner where her office is. mr. ball. mrs. case? miss burns. yes. mr. ball. did you hear anybody running down the stairs at any time? miss burns. yes, but i didn't know---- mr. ball. when? miss burns. it was after that; i went to the restroom. mr. ball. how long after? miss burns. i imagine maybe it was minutes. i imagine it was the policeman or somebody; of course, i don't know who it was. mr. ball. i think that's all, miss burns. this will be written up and you can sign it; you can read it and sign it or you can waive your signature if you wish and you won't have to come back here. which would you rather do? miss burns. i can waive signature if that is all right. mr. ball. fine, thank you very much, miss burns. testimony of mary e. bledsoe the testimony of mary e. bledsoe was taken at : a.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by messrs. joseph a. ball, david w. belin, and albert e. jenner, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. mrs. mary e. bledsoe was accompanied by her attorney, miss melody june douthit. mr. ball. will you stand up, mrs. bledsoe, please. will you raise your right hand. do you solemnly swear that the testimony which you are about to give before this commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mrs. bledsoe. i do. mr. ball. state your name, please. mrs. bledsoe. mary e. bledsoe. mr. ball. and your residence? mrs. bledsoe. north marsalis. mr. ball. mrs. bledsoe, you received a letter from the counsel for the commission asking you to be here today, didn't you? mrs. bledsoe. yes, sir. mr. ball. and you received that what date? march , or was it march ? mrs. bledsoe. when? this first time? miss douthit. no, back. mr. ball. i mean the letter your attorney just showed me. seventeenth of march? mrs. bledsoe. uh-huh. mr. ball. and you have come down here in response to that letter, haven't you? mrs. bledsoe. yes. mr. ball. and you are here appearing with your attorney, who is present at this time? mrs. bledsoe. yes. mr. ball. you've been asked to give testimony in this matter which concerns an investigation into the assassination of president kennedy, and certain facts which you have, which i believe that you knew of, and we are going to ask you questions about it. that is the general subject of the investigation. mrs. bledsoe. uh-huh. mr. ball. and you are willing to testify, are you not? mrs. bledsoe. yes. mr. ball. and give us as much help as you can? mrs. bledsoe. yes. mr. ball. what is your--you have given us your address, haven't you? mrs. bledsoe. yes. mr. ball. can you tell me something, briefly, about your past life? where you were born and what your education was and what your occupation has been? mrs. bledsoe. i was born in the country. town of about miles from corsicanna, tex. my father was a doctor down there, and i was a second child; i have a brother older than i am. and then i moved to ennis, and then come to dallas and lived here until i was a little girl, or years old, then i went back down to ennis and my father practiced medicine in ennis, tex., and then about--i married then when i was , and then i moved around quite a little while i was married, but--and then my husband and i, we had trouble, and i divorced him in--oh, about in , and i raised my two children by myself, and i have been in the place where i live years, and over on the back, i was--i have been here years in the neighborhood, and i raised both of my boys, and they are grown. mr. ball. your occupation has been that of a housewife? mrs. bledsoe. yes. well, i had rented rooms, but i had some money my father had given me. i had some money from him. mr. ball. your present address, you rent rooms, do you? mrs. bledsoe. yes; i do, now. i have just started in september again. my son left home, you see, and i started---- mr. ball. that was september of ? mrs. bledsoe. yes. mr. ball. how large a house is that? mrs. bledsoe. well, it is all on one floor. and i have four bedrooms, but i rent three. mr. ball. in september of , you were living there alone, were you? mrs. bledsoe. no; my son was living there. mr. ball. and he left? mrs. bledsoe. uh-huh. mr. ball. did you rent rooms before your son left your home? mrs. bledsoe. well, let's see, now, oh, yes; uh-huh, in september i---- mr. ball. except his bedroom? mrs. bledsoe. yes; uh-huh. mr. ball. when he left you rented another bedroom, did you? mrs. bledsoe. well yes; i am trying to. haven't got it rented. mr. ball. now, did you ever rent a room in your home to lee oswald? mrs. bledsoe. yes; uh-huh. mr. ball. can you tell me about the first time that you ever saw him. what the date was? mrs. bledsoe. the first time i ever saw him or heard of him, i was in the backyard doing a lot of yardwork. i come around the house and he was standing on the porch, and he said, "do you have a room for rent?" i had a "for rent" sign out. i said, "yes" and he said, "may i see it?" and i wanted--"yes"; and then i was trying to size him up to get in that room, and--in the house, and i said, "are you married?" and he said, "yes; i am married. i just want this for a short time. my wife lives at irving." and then we got inside the house and he had a thing where this--pictures of his wife and baby, and he said he was in the marine corps, and i tried to be nice to him, and so, he paid me $ , and---- mr. ball. then did he tell you what his name was? mrs. bledsoe. oh, yes. mr. ball. what did he say? mrs. bledsoe. his name was oswald, and he put it on this thing, and my son took it and sold it. mr. ball. you said he put it on this thing? mrs. bledsoe. this right here. mr. ball. what is, "this thing"? mrs. bledsoe. calendar. mr. ball. well---- miss douthit. mary, why don't you pull up your chair and be comfortable while you are doing this. now, you are all right. mr. ball. now, you have a calendar here? mrs. bledsoe. that is my calendar. mr. ball. that is the calendar for december , and i notice it has dates and names and dates. is that the way you keep books on your rooms? mrs. bledsoe. yes; but i don't now. i did then, because i just had started. the first one i got was in september. mr. ball. september of ? mrs. bledsoe. uh-huh. mr. ball. he put his name on the calendar? mrs. bledsoe. well, got it in september. he got it, my son sold it for $ , and i didn't even know that he tore that out. mr. ball. now, let me see here in this calendar. it runs from january , to december of , but october of , has been torn out? mrs. bledsoe. uh-huh. and he said his name was lee oswald was what his name was, and i said, "well, i can't think of that name oswald, i will call you lee." so, he put it down on the th. just rented for a week, you see, the th. mr. ball. you said the th? mrs. bledsoe. on the th. mr. ball. on the th of october? that is the first day you ever saw him? mrs. bledsoe. ever saw him. mr. ball. on the th of october you rented the room to him, didn't you? mrs. bledsoe. uh-huh. mr. ball. and is that the date that he put his name on the calendar? mrs. bledsoe. yes; that is the day. mr. ball. he paid you $ ? mrs. bledsoe. $ in money. mr. ball. that was the rental? mrs. bledsoe. for one room. mr. ball. for one room for week? mrs. bledsoe. yes, sir. mr. ball. when did he move into the room? mrs. bledsoe. right then. mr. ball. did he have his things? mrs. bledsoe. had his things on his hand and had his bag, but after he paid my $ he went out--i don't know, i think this ymca, but i am not supposed to know where, and brought back another bag, and then he said, "well, where is the grocery store?" well, i said, "it is down that way," but i didn't want him to use the kitchen, so, he said, "i'm going to get some milk," and so, i didn't like that much, but i didn't say anything about it because i wanted to get along with him. mr. ball. let me ask you some questions before we commence the grocery store part of it. when you first saw him, did he have his luggage with him? mrs. bledsoe. yes. mr. ball. what did he have with him? mrs. bledsoe. a bag. mr. ball. will you describe the bag? mrs. bledsoe. i don't remember where--seemed like it was a kind of a duffelbag. mr. ball. the kind the men in the service put their clothes in? mrs. bledsoe. yes; and had some on his arm, these coathangers, you know. mr. ball. had some things on a coathanger? mrs. bledsoe. and had a clock. mr. ball. had what? mrs. bledsoe. a clock, wrapped up. mr. ball. what color was this duffelbag? mrs. bledsoe. i think it was blue. mr. ball. that was the only bag he had with him? mrs. bledsoe. no, he went off to town and got another one. mr. ball. then he went off to town and brought another bag back, would you describe that? mrs. bledsoe. no, i didn't pay any attention to it. mr. ball. was it leather or---- mrs. bledsoe. i couldn't say. mr. ball. could you give me any idea of the size of it? mrs. bledsoe. well, it was big. about like that [indicating]. mr. ball. about like that, you mean, oh, feet long, feet, - / ? mrs. bledsoe. no; about like that. mr. ball. about---- mrs. bledsoe. as well as i remember. mr. ball. about feet long? was it brown? mrs. bledsoe. i just couldn't remember. i didn't pay any attention to it. mr. ball. do you remember the color? mrs. bledsoe. no. mr. ball. do you remember him carrying it into the room? mrs. bledsoe. yes; i remember he went in. mr. ball. now---- mrs. bledsoe. but, i didn't pay any attention. he rented the room, and i didn't pay any attention. mr. ball. did he carry it by a handle, or in his arms? mrs. bledsoe. i guess he carried it by a handle, but i don't know. mr. ball. he brought two bags into this room? mrs. bledsoe. yes; wasn't but one when he come in, but next time he went off---- mr. ball. he brought another one back? how did he come out there, do you know? mrs. bledsoe. i don't know. i don't know whether he come here--he come and just knocked on the door. i was in the backyard. mr. ball. after he moved, after he put his bags in his room, did he leave? mrs. bledsoe. no; he said---- mr. ball. i mean, did he leave to go downtown to get the other bag? mrs. bledsoe. uh-huh, and come back. mr. ball. did you see him leave? mrs. bledsoe. no; i didn't see him. mr. ball. the time he went to get the other bag, did you see him? mrs. bledsoe. no. mr. ball. do you know what kind of transportation he had? mrs. bledsoe. no; i guess i didn't pay any attention to him. mr. ball. did you ever see him drive up in a car? mrs. bledsoe. no, always took a bus. mr. ball. how do you know that? mrs. bledsoe. well, i saw--one time he stopped over there across the street and get the bus that is the only time i didn't--i didn't watch what he did. of course, i had no idea he was the kind of man he was. mr. ball. you say that he asked you where the grocery store was? mrs. bledsoe. uh-huh. mr. ball. is that when he came back with this second bag? mrs. bledsoe. yes; uh-huh, i got him something to eat. mr. ball. did you talk to him anything about his using your refrigerator? mrs. bledsoe. well---- miss douthit. one question. ask her how long he was gone and you will know how far he went. that is what i wanted to know. mr. ball. when he left to get this second bag, how long was he gone? mrs. bledsoe. well, not over an hour. about an hour. it wasn't a long--i wondered then where he went, but it wasn't none of my business. mr. ball. you say now not over an hour. do you think it might have been less than an hour? mrs. bledsoe. yes; i believe less than an hour. mr. ball. how much less? mrs. bledsoe. well, i'd say minutes, anyway, at most. mr. ball. this was in the afternoon, was it? mrs. bledsoe. yes; started at o'clock. mr. ball. at o'clock he came to your home? mrs. bledsoe. yes. mr. ball. and then he came back the second time with the second bag before , did he? mrs. bledsoe. yes; i'm sure he did. mr. ball. did you talk to him any about the use of the refrigerator? mrs. bledsoe. well, he said he was going to put something in there, and i said--i didn't have anything to say, and i hemmed-and-hawed, i said, "well, no; i don't have a very big refrigerator." well, he said, "i won't use it after this time." he was very, very congenial. mr. ball. did he go down to the grocery store? mrs. bledsoe. yes. mr. ball. what did he buy? mrs. bledsoe. he bought some peanut butter and some sardines, and some bananas and put it all in his room, except the milk, and he ate there, ate in his room. i didn't like that either. mr. ball. he was there how many days? mrs. bledsoe. he was there days, just days. mr. ball. he was there--what day of the week was the day that he came? mrs. bledsoe. monday and tuesday he stayed home and went to bed, and stayed--i didn't pay any attention to him---- mr. ball. monday night he stayed home? mrs. bledsoe. yes; after he went to the grocery store. mr. ball. what about tuesday? mrs. bledsoe. tuesday he went out at : and come home at : . he was looking for a job, and called on the phone, wanted different ones, and i got the book, and papers, and tried to look for him a job, because he was a nice looking boy, and wanted a job. mr. ball. now, he went out at - : in the morning and came back at : ? mrs. bledsoe. let's see. : . i have my nap then, and it kind of interfered, but i didn't say anything. mr. ball. you say you have a what? mrs. bledsoe. i have a nap then. mr. ball. you take a nap in the afternoon? mrs. bledsoe. yes; i had a stroke, you see. mr. ball. and it interfered with your nap when he came back? mrs. bledsoe. yes; but i didn't say anything then, but then the next day---- mr. ball. let's finish tuesday. mrs. bledsoe. all right. that's all. mr. ball. did he go out again after he came home at : ? mrs. bledsoe. no. mr. ball. stayed in his room? mrs. bledsoe. all the time, and stayed there that night, too. mr. ball. all the time? what about wednesday? mrs. bledsoe. he left about o'clock, and went off dressed. had a white shirt and white tie and white--white trousers, and looked very nice. went off monday about o'clock. mr. ball. this is wednesday. mrs. bledsoe. wednesday. then he got back at : . mr. ball. let me see, he left at ? mrs. bledsoe. uh-huh. mr. ball. come back at : ? mrs. bledsoe. yes. mr. ball. and did he go out again that day? mrs. bledsoe. no; but then he talked to somebody on the phone, and talked in a foreign language. mr. ball. you mean when? wednesday? mrs. bledsoe. on wednesday, i guess it was wednesday, but i am sure it must have been wednesday. i was in my room, and the telephone is over there [indicating], and i didn't like that, somebody talking in a foreign language and, so i told my girl friend, i said, "i don't like anybody talking in a foreign language." mr. ball. what time of day did he call on the phone and talk in a foreign language? mrs. bledsoe. he come home at : and talked about or : , talked like that. mr. ball. did he go out again that day? mrs. bledsoe. no; went to bed. mr. ball. went to bed that night and stayed there? mrs. bledsoe. and i didn't fix his room either, that is why i didn't see his luggage. i didn't go in his room at all because they take care of their own rooms. mr. ball. what about thursday? mrs. bledsoe. thursday, he went out at o'clock or : , and i was out in the yard, and he come out and i said, "oh. i thought you had gone." "oh, no," he said, he didn't go, but he came home a little bit early, and after i said he got into my nap, he come home at o'clock, or : , you see, and didn't leave until . mr. ball. and did you tell him that he interfered with your nap? mrs. bledsoe. yes. mr. ball. what day did you tell him that? mrs. bledsoe. i told him that, i guess must have been thursday. thursday and then he---- mr. ball. you mean thursday morning? mrs. bledsoe. uh-huh. mr. ball. well, then thursday morning is when he left a little later than usual? mrs. bledsoe. uh-huh. mr. ball. and you told him that he had interfered with your nap before that day? mrs. bledsoe. no; i think it was--it must have been--no; it was that day. it was after i had that call. i didn't like that and he never said a word, and then i interviewed him when he first came in and thought he was all right, and he never spoke--i had one boy on the back. he never saw him and he would run to the bathroom and go to the icebox and get some ice, and didn't like that. went too much to the icebox, but---- mr. ball. well, now---- mrs. bledsoe. that was a thursday. mr. ball. when he went away on thursday, then had you told him prior to that time that when he came in at : , in the afternoon, he interfered with your nap? mrs. bledsoe. yes. mr. ball. do you think you might have told him that on wednesday or tuesday? mrs. bledsoe. no; i didn't tell him until after i had that call. mr. ball. when was the call? mrs. bledsoe. on wednesday. mr. ball. and who called you on wednesday? mrs. bledsoe. he called somebody, you know. mr. ball. you mean the day that he called someone and spoke in a foreign language? mrs. bledsoe. yes. mr. ball. after that, you told him---- mrs. bledsoe. i didn't like that. mr. ball. that he interfered with your nap? mrs. bledsoe. uh-huh. i didn't like it, and the next day he fussed with somebody on the phone, i don't know whether it was his wife or who it was. mr. ball. that was thursday? mrs. bledsoe. yes. mr. ball. about what time of day? mrs. bledsoe. about o'clock or : when he come home here and---- mr. ball. did he go out again that day? mrs. bledsoe. no. mr. ball. stayed in all day? mrs. bledsoe. stayed in all day, and it was friday he stayed in his room all day. didn't eat. ate what he had in his room. stayed in his room all day long. mr. ball. when did you next see him? mrs. bledsoe. been--then saturday, he started out and had his bag. mr. ball. started out with his luggage? mrs. bledsoe. saturday morning he started out with his bag and---- mr. ball. which bag did he take? mrs. bledsoe. i don't know. mr. ball. was it the duffelbag? mrs. bledsoe. i don't know. mr. ball. like you see the servicemen carrying? mrs. bledsoe. i guess it was. i didn't pay any attention. mr. ball. this was saturday morning about what time? mrs. bledsoe. about o'clock, or : and i thought he was going to move and i--"oh--" i said, "you are going to move?" and he said, "no; i am just going for the weekend." well, i said, "well, i don't know." but he said, "and i want my room cleaned and clean sheets put on the bed." and i said, "well, i will after you move because you are going to move." he said, "why?" i says, "because i am not going to rent to you any more." mr. ball. not going to what? mrs. bledsoe. not going to rent to you any more, he said, "give me back my money." now, $ . i said, "well, i don't have it." so, he left saturday morning and, in the meantime. i think his wife was going to have a baby---- mr. ball. how did you know that? mrs. bledsoe. well, i found--i read it in the papers. mr. ball. did he ever tell you? mrs. bledsoe. no, no; he didn't ever tell me. didn't tell me anything. mr. ball. you told him you weren't going to rent to him any more on that saturday morning about o'clock. at that time did he have his bag? was he carrying a bag? mrs. bledsoe. yes; going out with it again. going out to irving. mr. ball. how did you know? mrs. bledsoe. well, said he was. mr. ball. he told you he was going to irving? mrs. bledsoe. yes; said he was going to irving. mr. ball. did he tell you he was going to irving for any purpose? mrs. bledsoe. no; just said he was going to irving. no; he didn't tell me anything. mr. ball. why did you tell him you wouldn't rent to him any more? mrs. bledsoe. because i didn't like him. mr. ball. why? mrs. bledsoe. i didn't like his attitude. he was just kind of like this, you know, just big shot, you know, and i didn't have anything to say to him, and--but, i didn't like him. there was just something about him i didn't like or want him--just wasn't the kind of person i wanted. just didn't want him around me. mr. ball. when he left on saturday morning do you know by what transportation he took? mrs. bledsoe. didn't pay any attention. mr. ball. is there a bus stop near your home? mrs. bledsoe. right in front of the house. mr. ball. did you see him take the bus. mrs. bledsoe. no; i didn't see him. mr. ball. did you see him wait for the bus? mrs. bledsoe. no; i just saw him go out the door. didn't pay any attention. and when he left i said--oh, he was going to come back and get his things saturday. he took it out and said, "well, it is dollars," and i--"well, i don't have it, so, he went off." mr. ball. well, wait a minute. did he say he would come back and get the things saturday? mrs. bledsoe. no; he didn't say a thing. mr. ball. now, wait a minute. saturday morning you told him you wouldn't rent to him again. what did he say about getting his money back? mrs. bledsoe. well, he said, "well, give me my money back and i will move now." and i said, "i don't have it." mr. ball. then what did he say? mrs. bledsoe. didn't say anything and went on out the door. mr. ball. was there anything said about whether he would come to get his clothes? mrs. bledsoe. no; not a thing. mr. ball. did he come back saturday night? mrs. bledsoe. no. mr. ball. when did he come back? mrs. bledsoe. monday morning. mr. ball. and from saturday morning until monday morning you didn't see him? mrs. bledsoe. uh-huh. mr. ball. what time monday morning did he come back? mrs. bledsoe. between and , and . i mean. mr. ball. when he came back did he have anything with him? mrs. bledsoe. no. mr. ball. have his bag? mrs. bledsoe. no; didn't say a word to him. he--i didn't say a word to him. mr. ball. when he came back did he have anything in his hand? mrs. bledsoe. no. mr. ball. did you see him leave? mrs. bledsoe. yes; i did. mr. ball. what did he take with him? mrs. bledsoe. he had that bag. mr. ball. what bag? mrs. bledsoe. the bag, you see, he had two. mr. ball. yes. mrs. bledsoe. but, i never noticed it. i don't know what kind it was or anything. mr. ball. when he left, he had one bag when he left? mrs. bledsoe. one bag. mr. ball. do you know whether it was the duffelbag? mrs. bledsoe. no; i couldn't say for sure. mr. ball. do you remember what color it was? mrs. bledsoe. no; just navy blue. i don't know which one he carried, or what they were or what. i didn't pay any attention to it. mr. ball. you don't know whether both bags were navy blue, or different colors? mrs. bledsoe. no. mr. ball. you know one was navy blue? mrs. bledsoe. that's right. mr. ball. when he left, did he say anything to you? mrs. bledsoe. no. mr. ball. or did you say anything to him? mrs. bledsoe. no. i said, "good luck." you know, i thought to myself, "that's good riddance," and i looked in his room and it was all right, and nothing was disturbed. mr. ball. had he cleaned it up? mrs. bledsoe. no; it was dirty. mr. ball. did he leave anything around the room? mrs. bledsoe. no; somehow i saw a map. i believe he left that map. mr. ball. what map? mrs. bledsoe. a map of dallas where he could get around to get some places, jobs. mr. ball. what did you do with that map? mrs. bledsoe. throwed it in the garbage. mr. ball. threw it away? mrs. bledsoe. yes. mr. ball. was it a map, kind of a map put out by the service stations? mrs. bledsoe. yes; one of those kinds. i just threw it away and cleaned up the room. just threw it away. mr. ball. did the map have any markings on it? mrs. bledsoe. yes. mr. ball. you know--do you know what the markings were? mrs. bledsoe. no; didn't pay any attention to it. mr. ball. now, did you ever see him again? mrs. bledsoe. yes. mr. ball. when? mrs. bledsoe. well, i thought. "well, he is gone," and forgot it. mr. ball. but, before you go into that, i notice you have been reading from some notes before you. mrs. bledsoe. well, because i forget what i have to say. mr. ball. when did you make those notes? mrs. bledsoe. what day did i make them? miss douthit. when mr. sorrels and i were talking about her going to washington, he made the suggestion that she put all the things down on paper because she might forget something, and i said, "mary, you put everything on a piece of paper so that you can remember it and you won't forget anything, you know, what happened," and that's when she started making notes. mr. ball. you have made the notes in the last week? mrs. bledsoe. yes. miss douthit. at my suggestion and mr. sorrels. mr. ball. you didn't make any notes during the week he was there? mrs. bledsoe. no; i didn't pay any attention to him. mr. ball. your address, make sure that we have this. the address where you were living on the th of october was marsalis--north marsalis, dallas, tex.? mrs. bledsoe. that's right. marsalis. mr. ball. and you are still living there, aren't you? mrs. bledsoe. yes. mr. ball. and the foreign language that you heard oswald using over the telephone on this wednesday afternoon, do you know what the language was? mrs. bledsoe. no; i didn't. mr. ball. are you familiar with the spanish language? mrs. bledsoe. no; i am not. not familiar with any of them. mr. ball. all you know it was not english? mrs. bledsoe. no. mr. ball. but, you can't tell what language? mrs. bledsoe. no. mr. ball. can you make a guess? mrs. bledsoe. no; i have no idea. i do, because the girl is spanish, but i don't know whether he called her or not. mr. ball. what girl is spanish? mrs. bledsoe. i mean--his wife was russian. mr. ball. russian. mrs. bledsoe. i don't know. mr. ball. now, when did you see oswald again? mrs. bledsoe. well, i went down to the parade. oh, when was the parade? the d of--the next-- d of february--when was the parade? mr. ball. the d of november the president came to dallas. mrs. bledsoe. and i first got off at neiman's and i--the parade didn't come on, and i kept walking on up, and walked in front of titche's over on that side there, and i saw the parade there. he passed--i saw the president, oh, i was happy i got to see him. and--so then i got on across and went over to the athletic club, and caught the bus. mr. ball. what bus did you catch? mrs. bledsoe. well, i don't remember whether it was the marsalis or the romana. mr. ball. both go by your house, do they? what was the last one? mrs. bledsoe. the marsalis. mr. ball. what was the second name? mrs. bledsoe. romana. mr. ball. and both go west on elm? mrs. bledsoe. right--so, i got on the bus, and while it was awfully crowded there---- mr. ball. you mean crowded on the bus? mrs. bledsoe. no; outside. mr. ball. were there many people on the bus? mrs. bledsoe. no. mr. ball. how many people on the bus? mrs. bledsoe. oh, about . mr. ball. and what was the location on elm where you boarded this bus? mrs. bledsoe. at the athletic club. mr. ball. what cross street is that, do you remember? mrs. bledsoe. st. paul. mr. ball. st. paul? you got on at st. paul? st. paul and elm? mrs. bledsoe. uh-huh. mr. ball. and the bus was going in what direction? mrs. bledsoe. west. mr. ball. all right, now, tell me what happened? mrs. bledsoe. and, after we got past akard, at murphy--i figured it out. let's see. i don't know for sure. oswald got on. he looks like a maniac. his sleeve was out here [indicating]. his shirt was undone. mr. ball. you are indicating a sleeve of a shirt? mrs. bledsoe. yes. mr. ball. it was unraveled? mrs. bledsoe. was a hole in it, hole, and he was dirty, and i didn't look at him. i didn't want to know i even seen him, and i just looked off, and then about that time the motorman said the president had been shot, and i sit--when i go to town i sit this way on the bus. the motorman is right there [indicating], and i sit right there so that i can get off. mr. ball. you mean--where do you sit with reference to the motorman, one seat or two seats behind him? mrs. bledsoe. i don't--the motorman is here, and i sit across in the seat across the way. mr. ball. now, on this day when you boarded the bus, is that the seat you took? mrs. bledsoe. i always did. mr. ball. would that be the first seat on the right-hand side? mrs. bledsoe. yes. mr. ball. first seat on the bus? mrs. bledsoe. well---- miss douthit. side seat. mr. ball. oh, it is a side seat? was that side seat so that you were facing the motorman? mrs. bledsoe. uh-huh. mr. ball. when oswald got on, you then weren't facing him, were you? mrs. bledsoe. no; but i saw that it was him. mr. ball. how close did he pass to you as he boarded the bus? mrs. bledsoe. just in front of me. just like this [indicating]. mr. ball. just a matter of a foot or two? mrs. bledsoe. uh-huh. mr. ball. when he got on the bus, did he say anything to the motorman? mrs. bledsoe. oh, the motorman? i think--i don't know. i don't know. mr. ball. where did he sit? mrs. bledsoe. he sat about halfway back down. mr. ball. on what side? mrs. bledsoe. on the same side i was on. mr. ball. same side? did you look at him? mrs. bledsoe. no, sir. mr. ball. did he look at you as he went by? did he look at you? mrs. bledsoe. i don't know. i didn't look at him. that is--i was just--he looked so bad in his face, and his face was so distorted. mr. ball. did he have a hat on? mrs. bledsoe. no. mr. ball. now, what color shirt did he have on? mrs. bledsoe. he had a brown shirt. mr. ball. and unraveled? mrs. bledsoe. hole in his sleeve right here [indicating]. mr. ball. which is the elbow of the sleeve? that is, you pointed to the elbow? mrs. bledsoe. well, it is. mr. ball. and that would be which elbow, right or left elbow? mrs. bledsoe. right. mr. ball. did he have anything on. was the shirt open or was it buttoned? mrs. bledsoe. yes; all the buttons torn off. mr. ball. what did he have on underneath that? mrs. bledsoe. i don't know. mr. ball. do you know the color of any undershirt he had on? mrs. bledsoe. no. mr. ball. notice the color of his pants? mrs. bledsoe. yes, they were gray, and they were all ragged in here [indicating]. mr. ball. around where? mrs. bledsoe. at the seam. mr. ball. at the waist? mrs. bledsoe. at the waist, uh-huh. mr. ball. was the shirt tucked beneath the belt in his pants, or outside the belt? mrs. bledsoe. no; he had it in. mr. ball. had it tucked in? mrs. bledsoe. no; it was tucked in. mr. ball. so, that the belt of the pants was outside the shirt? mrs. bledsoe. yes; uh-huh. mr. ball. now, you say the motorman said something? mrs. bledsoe. motorman said, "well, the president has been shot," and i say--so, and the woman over--we all got to talking about four of us sitting around talking, and oswald was sitting back there, and one of them said, "hope they don't shoot us," and i said, "i don't believe that--it is--i don't believe it. somebody just said that." and it was too crowded, you see, and oswald had got off. mr. ball. how far had he been on the bus before he got off? until the time he got on until the time he got off? mrs. bledsoe. about three or four blocks. mr. ball. did he say anything to the motorman when he got off? mrs. bledsoe. they say he did, but i don't remember him saying anything. mr. ball. did you ever see the motorman give him a transfer? mrs. bledsoe. no; i didn't pay any attention but i believe he did. mr. ball. well, what do you mean he--you believe he did? did you remember seeing him get on or are you telling me something you read in the newspapers? mrs. bledsoe. no; i don't remember. i don't remember. mr. ball. did you pay any attention at that time as to whether he did, or did not get a transfer? mrs. bledsoe. i didn't pay any attention to him. mr. ball. well, did you look at him as he got off the bus? mrs. bledsoe. no; i sure didn't. i didn't want to know him. mr. ball. well, you think you got enough of a glimpse of him to be able to recognize him? mrs. bledsoe. oh, yes. mr. ball. you think you might be mistaken? mrs. bledsoe. oh, no. mr. ball. you didn't look very carefully, did you? mrs. bledsoe. no; i just glanced at him, and then looked the other way and i hoped he didn't see me. mr. ball. now, are there two exits from the bus? mrs. bledsoe. uh-huh. mr. ball. the middle of the bus, and front of the bus? mrs. bledsoe. uh-huh. mr. ball. which exit did he leave? mrs. bledsoe. front. mrs. ball. by the motorman? mrs. bledsoe. uh-huh, by the motorman. mr. ball. did anybody else get off at that time when he got off? mrs. bledsoe. no, not then, but there was a lady sitting right across, she wanted to go to the train station. mr. ball. to the what station? mrs. bledsoe. train station, and she was worried about trying to get off, you know, trying to get there, and then we were hearing her, and i said, "well, why don't you walk over there. it's just a little ways." because the crowd was so bad we still didn't know the president had been killed, and finally she got off, but i think it was--it was before--i mean after oswald did. mr. ball. did she ask for a transfer? mrs. bledsoe. yes; she had the man give her one, because she caught the bus before she got to the train station. mr. ball. how do you know that? mrs. bledsoe. well, i saw her. mr. ball. you saw her catch another bus? mrs. bledsoe. she got on when we did. she rode a block. mr. ball. did anybody get off when the lady got off? anybody that was going to the train station? mrs. bledsoe. no. mr. ball. was there traffic? was the traffic heavy? mrs. bledsoe. oh, it was awful in the city, and then they had roped off that around where the president was killed, shot, and we were the first car that come around there, and then all of us were talking about the man, and we were looking up to see where he was shot and looking--and then they had one man and taking him, already got him in jail, and we got--"well, i am glad they found him." mr. ball. you were looking up at where? mrs. bledsoe. at where the boy was shot. mr. ball. you mean the texas book depository? mrs. bledsoe. yes, uh-huh. mr. ball. school book depository? mrs. bledsoe. uh-huh, because we were right four blocks from there, you see. mr. ball. can you tell me the location of the bus with reference to a cross street on elm where oswald got off? mrs. bledsoe. no; i can't, because they have changed that street, so, they have torn down things and i don't go to town very much now and so i don't---- mr. ball. was it in the middle of the block, or at a regular bus stop? mrs. bledsoe. well, they said it was. mr. ball. i want to know what you remember. mrs. bledsoe. no; i don't remember. mr. ball. do you remember whether it was a regular bus stop or not? mrs. bledsoe. no; i didn't pay any attention. mr. ball. did oswald get on at a regular bus stop? mrs. bledsoe. i didn't pay any particular attention to him. mr. ball. do you remember anyone knocking on the door, and as a result, the motorman opened the front door? mrs. bledsoe. no. mr. ball. you don't remember that? mrs. bledsoe. i don't remember. mr. ball. you are not able to say whether oswald got on at a regular bus stop, or at a point between blocks? mrs. bledsoe. no. mr. ball. and you are not able to tell us whether he got off at regular bus stops, or between? mrs. bledsoe. that's right. mr. ball. now, had the bus gone as far as lamar street, when oswald got off? mrs. bledsoe. yes. no; i think before we got to lamar street. mr. ball. how far? mrs. bledsoe. well---- mr. ball. close to lamar? mrs. bledsoe. yes, close. mr. ball. how close? mrs. bledsoe. well, i couldn't say. mr. ball. within a half block, or block? mrs. bledsoe. no; within a block. mr. ball. about a block from lamar, you think? mrs. bledsoe. uh-huh. mr. ball. it was approaching lamar, wasn't it? mrs. bledsoe. uh-huh. mr. ball. when did you first notify the police that you believe you'd seen oswald? mrs. bledsoe. when i got home, first thing i did i went next door and told them the president had been shot, and so she turned on the radio and i went in and called my son and said the president had been shot, and he said, "why, he has got killed." well, i turned on the radio--television--and we heard ambulances and going around and them, and so, i didn't pay any attention. i wanted to hear about the president and there was a little boy came in that room in the back and he turned it on, and we listened and hear about mr. tippen [sic] being shot, and it didn't dawn on me, and i said--told his name as oswald. i don't--didn't mean anything to me, so, i wanted to hear about the president, only one i was interested in, so, he went on back to work and they kept talking about this boy oswald and had on a brown shirt, and all of a sudden, well, i declare, i believe that this was this boy, and his name was oswald--that is--give me his right name, you know, and so, about an hour my son came home, and i told him, and he immediately called the police and told them, because we wanted to do all we could, and so, i went down the next night. he took me down, and i made a statement to them, what kind of--secret service man or something down there. mr. ball. where? mrs. bledsoe. at the police station. mr. ball. uh-huh. now, did you ever see oswald in a lineup? mrs. bledsoe. no. mr. ball. did they ever show you pictures? mrs. bledsoe. yes; showed me pictures of him. mr. ball. but didn't show you oswald? mrs. bledsoe. no. mr. ball. never did see oswald after he was arrested? mrs. bledsoe. not after he got off the bus; no. mr. ball. but, you looked at the pictures of oswald? mrs. bledsoe. yes. mr. ball. showed you the pictures of oswald? mrs. bledsoe. the man down at the police station, he had a picture of him with a gun, and said, "do you recognize him?" and i said, "yes; it is oswald." that is the one that i remember him. mr. ball. do you know the name of the man who showed you the picture of the man with the gun? mrs. bledsoe. i am so bad about names. mr. ball. was there one man or more than one man? mrs. bledsoe. oh, about a dozen. mr. ball. oh, a dozen men? mrs. bledsoe. there sure was a lot of them. two secret service men, and two to do this, and oh, i had interviewed about or or , plenty of them. mr. ball. now, i have got a piece of clothing here, which is marked---- mrs. bledsoe. that is it. mr. ball. commission exhibit . mrs. bledsoe. that is it. mr. ball. this is a shirt---- mrs. bledsoe. that is it. mr. ball. what do you mean by "that is it?" mrs. bledsoe. because they brought it out to the house and showed it. mr. ball. i know. what do you mean by "this is it?" mrs. bledsoe. well, because i can recognize it. mr. ball. recognize it as what? mrs. bledsoe. yes, sir; see there? mr. ball. yes. you tell me what do you see here? what permits you to recognize it? mrs. bledsoe. i recognize--first thing i notice the elbow is out and then i saw--when the man brought it out and let me see it? mr. ball. no, i am talking about--i am showing you this shirt now, and you said, "that is it." you mean--what do you mean by "that is it"? mrs. bledsoe. that is the one he had out there that day? mr. ball. who had it out there? mrs. bledsoe. some secret service man. mr. ball. he brought it out. now, i am--you have seen this shirt then before? mrs. bledsoe. yes. mr. ball. it was brought out by the secret service man and shown to you? mrs. bledsoe. yes. mr. ball. had you ever seen the shirt before that? mrs. bledsoe. well---- mr. ball. have you? mrs. bledsoe. no; he had it on, though. mr. ball. who had it on? mrs. bledsoe. oswald. mr. ball. oswald had it on? mrs. bledsoe. oswald had it on. mr. ball. now, what is there about the shirt that makes you believe that this is the shirt that oswald had on when he was on the bus? what is there about it? mrs. bledsoe. well, let's see the front of it. yes. see all this [indicating]? i remember that. mr. ball. tell me what you see there? mrs. bledsoe. i saw the--no; not so much that. it was done after--that is the part i recognize more than anything. mr. ball. you are pointing to a hole in the right elbow? mrs. bledsoe. yes. mr. ball. what about the color? mrs. bledsoe. well, i--what do you mean? mr. ball. well---- mrs. bledsoe. when he had it on? mr. ball. yes. mrs. bledsoe. before he was shot? yes; i remember it being brown. mr. ball. you remember the shirt being brown. was it this color? mrs. bledsoe. yes; it was that color. mr. ball. in other words, when you remember that you have seen something before---- mrs. bledsoe. uh-huh. mr. ball. in order to convince me that you did see it before you've got to tell me what there is about it that is the same, you see. now, you try to convince me, or tell me why it is that you believe that this is the shirt that oswald had on when you saw him on the bus? mrs. bledsoe. well, i would say it was. that hole---- mr. ball. mostly the hole in the right sleeve? mrs. bledsoe. yes. mr. ball. what about the color? mrs. bledsoe. yes; i remember the color. mr. ball. that is a similar color, isn't it? mrs. bledsoe. no; same color. mr. ball. same color? mrs. bledsoe. uh-huh. mr. ball. you think that is the shirt? mrs. bledsoe. yes; it is the shirt. mr. ball. had you ever seen him wear this shirt before, when he was around your house? mrs. bledsoe. no. mr. ball. first time you ever saw the shirt was when you saw him on the bus? mrs. bledsoe. uh-huh. mr. ball. i have two exhibits here. one commission exhibit . exhibit , and commission , both pants. have you ever seen either one of those before? mrs. bledsoe. now, is that long pants? mr. ball. yes; this is . mrs. bledsoe. well, that is not the ones he had on. mr. ball. that is not? mrs. bledsoe. no; it was ragged up at the top. mr. ball. this other pair of pants, , does that look like any of the pants he had on? mrs. bledsoe. that must have been it, but seemed like it was ragged up at the top. mr. ball. but, you think may have been the pair of pants he had on? mrs. bledsoe. yes. mr. ball. you think --don't pay any attention to the fact that it is cut up--does look anything like the pants he had on? mrs. bledsoe. no; i don't---- mr. ball. you don't think so? mrs. bledsoe. no, sir. mr. ball. i have no more questions to ask you now, mrs. bledsoe, but mr. jenner will ask you some questions. mrs. bledsoe. all right. mr. jenner. i will get up here close so you will hear me all right. mrs. bledsoe. all right. mr. jenner. i would like to go back to the day that he came to your home on the th of october? mrs. bledsoe. uh-huh. mr. jenner. you were out in your backyard? mrs. bledsoe. uh-huh. mr. jenner. and did he come back there? mrs. bledsoe. no. mr. jenner. did you have a bell on your house? mrs. bledsoe. he knocked at the door. mr. jenner. he knocked at the door and you heard him knock at the door? mrs. bledsoe. and i went around the front. mr. jenner. and your home is all at one level? mrs. bledsoe. yes. mr. jenner. so, you walked through your house? mrs. bledsoe. no; i went through the yard and come around from the back to the front yard. mr. jenner. and you saw a young man at the door? mrs. bledsoe. uh-huh. mr. jenner. how was that young man dressed on that occasion? mrs. bledsoe. i don't remember what he had on. didn't pay any attention. he was clean and that's all you see, but i didn't know what color the pants were and what kind of shirt it was. mr. jenner. well, did he have a suit on or sportscoat, or just his shirt? mrs. bledsoe. just the shirt. it was hot weather. october. mr. jenner. do you recall--did he have a tie on? mrs. bledsoe. no. mr. jenner. the shirt, that was open at the front? mrs. bledsoe. yes, it wasn't those short shirts. i don't know what kind it was. i didn't pay any attention to him. mr. jenner. and this was a monday morning. mrs. bledsoe. monday afternoon. mr. jenner. monday afternoon. did he have a hat on? mrs. bledsoe. no. mr. jenner. was he--did he have any luggage? mrs. bledsoe. yes; had one bag, i don't know whether it was a duffel or what, but then he went on and got another one. mr. jenner. well, if you will permit me to stay with what he had when you first saw him---- mrs. bledsoe. uh-huh. mr. jenner. you call on your recollection and tell me all you can tell me about the bag he had at that time, its size, its shape. in another connection, mrs. bledsoe, it is prior events that are important to us. if we can possibly find out or get as accurate a description as you can give us. sit there relaxed and tell us what you remember about this bag, what size it was; what shape it was; whether it was hard; whether it was soft, what color it was. was it zippered? how was it fastened? mrs. bledsoe. i don't know whether it was zippered or not. but seems to me like it was, though. mr. jenner. just start from the beginning and tell us what you remember about the bag that he had when you first saw him at the door. mrs. bledsoe. well, it was just a blue--like a canvas bag. mr. jenner. canvas? mrs. bledsoe. and, i don't know whether it was zippered or not. mr. jenner. you don't recall a zippered sort of bag? mrs. bledsoe. i didn't even look. it was about that long, i guess [indicating]. mr. jenner. you are indicating about inches? mrs. bledsoe. yes. mr. jenner. about that long. mrs. bledsoe. then, he had some things on his back. mr. jenner. now, would you mind if we stuck with the bag? mrs. bledsoe. well, that's all. mr. jenner. well, it was inches long and you think it was canvas, and you think it was blue in color? mrs. bledsoe. yes. mr. jenner. what was its shape? was it a round sort of soft kind of bag or was it--did it have firm, stiff sides? was it rectangular? mrs. bledsoe. well, i couldn't say. couldn't say. didn't pay any attention to it. mr. jenner. your recollection does serve you that it was not what we would call a suitcase? mrs. bledsoe. no; looked like an inexpensive bag of some kind. mr. jenner. and your memory doesn't serve you that there was any sort of zipper thing, and you do seem to have a reasonably firm recollection that the color of it was blue? mrs. bledsoe. uh-huh. mr. jenner. did it have a handle on it? mrs. bledsoe. yes. mr. jenner. when he picked it up---- mrs. bledsoe. well, that is---- mr. jenner. i was trying to get an idea, and well--i have a coat here, and using it for purposes of illustration, when he picked up the bag by the handles did the bag sag, or was it firm? mrs. bledsoe. i didn't pay any attention. didn't pay a bit of attention. mr. jenner. now, i notice from your testimony that he also had, on this occasion, at this time, in addition to the canvas bag, blue in color, he had some things over his arm, or over his shoulder? mrs. bledsoe. on a coathanger. mr. jenner. he had some articles of clothing? mrs. bledsoe. on coathangers. mr. jenner. on coathangers? mrs. bledsoe. yes. mr. jenner. and were those draped back over the shoulder or arm, or was he holding them by the hooks or hooks on the hangers? mrs. bledsoe. i think he had them on coathangers, just--i guess--i don't know--he was standing there. i don't have no idea. mr. jenner. just how he was carrying them, you are uncertain, but you are certain that he had articles of clothing on hangers? mr. bledsoe. on coathangers. mr. jenner. were--would they be wooden coathangers or the metal? mrs. bledsoe. metal ones. mr. jenner. the type you get when you send clothes to the cleaners and they come back on these wire, metal hangers, what--was that the type? mrs. bledsoe. well, i imagine. i couldn't tell. now, i--no; i didn't pay any attention to him. mr. jenner. your recollection serves you now that there were hangers, but you cannot recall whether they were the wire type or whether they were wooden? mrs. bledsoe. when he left, he just carried them off. i never did look at his clothes at all. mr. jenner. you impress me as a lady that wouldn't be fussing around? mrs. bledsoe. i didn't care enough about it. all i wanted him to do was rent the room. mr. jenner. now, you had a discussion, and you rented the room to him for $ for that week? mrs. bledsoe. uh-huh. mr. jenner. and he paid you then and there? mrs. bledsoe. uh-huh mr. jenner. in cash? mrs. bledsoe. yes; and i gave him a receipt on this book. mr. jenner. now, he then left your home? mrs. bledsoe. uh-huh. mr. jenner. did he say anything about why he was leaving? mrs. bledsoe. he went to the grocery store. no, no; first he went to get his other bag. mr. jenner. what did he say then? mrs. bledsoe. didn't say anything. mr. jenner. how did you come to know that he went to get another bag? mrs. bledsoe. he didn't say--he just went off. mr. jenner. he just turned around without any leave taking? mrs. bledsoe. no; because he was not a man to talk, you know, what i got out of him, i had to get it out of him, because it was hard to--because i wanted to see what kind of a person he was, and it was hard to get, you know, to judge him in such a short time. mr. jenner. when you completed the transaction about his renting the room and you got your $ , he paid it to you, so it was agreed he had the room for a week, did he go in and look at the room before he paid you the $ ? mrs. bledsoe. he was in the room, and i was at the door, and he looked at it and i said, $ , so, he took it and give me the money all in ones, $ . mr. jenner. seven $ bills? mrs. bledsoe. seven $ bills, and then he come over to my room and i--he wrote it down, and it is a good thing i had him write it, because i am kind of nervous, and i don't write so well, see, and he put it down on that, and that--and so, that is--this is in september, but anyway---- mr. jenner. yes; i appreciate that. mrs. bledsoe. october---- mr. jenner. well---- miss douthit. let me ask her this question about that bag, if it was puffed out, or approximately what shape it was, also, as to any further conversation that she had as to his background, how much she knows. if you are interested. you might not be. mr. jenner. mr. robert davis of the attorney general's office of texas has come in, and i am not seeking to press you, but we have some problems of the highest degree of exactitude that we can obtain. and at the risk of boring you, i would like to go back to that bag again. mrs. bledsoe. oh, that; i didn't pay much attention to it. mr. jenner. when you first saw him at the door at your front of your home, he had the bag? mrs. bledsoe. yes. mr. jenner. was it resting on the porch, or was he standing before the door with bag in hand when you first saw him? mrs. bledsoe. i come around the house, you see, and i don't know. i didn't pay--i don't know, couldn't tell you whether he was carrying it or what, but he did have these things on his shoulder, on his hangers. it--maybe had it sitting down, i don't know. i guess he did. i didn't pay any attention to it. mr. jenner. and at that point you were asking why he was there? mrs. bledsoe. no; he asked me if i had a room for rent. mr. jenner. yes. mrs. bledsoe. and i said, "yes," and i thought, "well, are you married?" and he said, "yes," and---- mr. jenner. you asked? mrs. bledsoe. uh-huh. mr. jenner. you inquired of him as to his history? mrs. bledsoe. yes. mr. jenner. what did you inquire of him, and what did he say? mrs. bledsoe. well, i wanted to find out something about him, and he said, "well, i just want the room for a week or two, because i am going to get a job and then i will have my wife here." mr. jenner. he told you at that time and informed you that he was unemployed? mrs. bledsoe. yes. mr. jenner. and he would be seeking work? mrs. bledsoe. yes. mr. jenner. and he said that he was going to bring his wife? mrs. bledsoe. yes. mr. jenner. and--when and if he obtained employment? mrs. bledsoe. and so, that give me a lead, something to talk about, and i said, "well, what kind of work do you do? "oh, i do electronics," he said, and i said, "well, there is some good jobs because you are young, and you can get a good job a young man like you." and then went on. then something about him being in the marines, and i said, "well, that is wonderful. my son was in the navy." and talking about him, you know, just getting to know him, and--but, "here is a picture of my wife, and picture of the girl, and the baby." and i said, "oh, she has got a baby, hasn't she?" and he said, "yes." and everything he said, i had to pull it out of him to talk about something for him to say what it was. mr. jenner. but, he volunteered the picture of his wife and child? mrs. bledsoe. yes; he did that. showed me that picture. mr. jenner. was that an ordinary snapshot picture? mrs. bledsoe. uh-huh. it was in his billfold. mr. jenner. took it out of his billfold? mrs. bledsoe. no, sir; it was in the billfold. just showed it in the billfold. mr. jenner. i see. i have a billfold here. was it this type? mrs. bledsoe. no; it was something else. don't seem like it was like that. seemed like it opened this other way, i---- mr. jenner. this? mrs. bledsoe. yes; i think it was like that. mr. jenner. did he carry it in his trouser pocket, coat pocket? mrs. bledsoe. i didn't pay any attention where he had it. mr. jenner. what other inquiries did you make of him to become better acquainted and find out about him? mrs. bledsoe. he said he had been in the marines and i thought that was a pretty good recommendation, and i said, "well, you won't have any trouble at all getting any job." and so, the next morning i was helping him looking for a job. mr. jenner. now, pardon me, if you will just stick to while you're at the door now. mrs. bledsoe. well---- mr. jenner. and---- miss douthit. just one interruption, but find out if this conversation took place at the door, or after he got in the room. they are in this room, you see. mr. jenner. you went inside the house almost immediately? mrs. bledsoe. yes; i did. mr. jenner. when he first made an inquiry? mrs. bledsoe. yes. mr. jenner. and you took him to show him the room? mrs. bledsoe. yes. mr. jenner. and your inquiries were--with respect to his history were in the room? mrs. bledsoe. yes; uh-huh. mr. jenner. and he showed you the picture while you were in the room? mrs. bledsoe. i think so. mr. jenner. and i take it, am i correct, when you went into the room he had that bag, and he had the articles of clothing? mrs. bledsoe. yes. mr. jenner. and had them with him, didn't leave them on the porch? mrs. bledsoe. yes. mr. jenner. what did he do with the bag when he entered the room? did he put it down on the floor? mrs. bledsoe. didn't pay any attention. mr. jenner. didn't pay any attention? what did he do with the articles of clothing on the hangers? mrs. bledsoe. i wasn't paying any attention to it. i guess he hung them up. just a young boy, and i was trying to see if he was clean, and if he was very intelligent, and he was going to go to work, so, i didn't have too much to work on. told me he had a nice wife, so, i didn't have anything to say. mr. jenner. when your son was in the navy, did he have a duffelbag? mrs. bledsoe. no. now, it was so long ago--it was--i don't know whether he did. i don't think he did. he didn't. he was an instructor at ti. mr. jenner. was he stationed here in dallas? mrs. bledsoe. no, ti. treasure island. mr. jenner. oh, treasure island. how long did this discussion with him in the room take? mrs. bledsoe. oh, i guess minutes because those--he was--you know, old people, they want to get you out of the way. they don't want to listen to you, but i wanted to find out, so, i think i maybe asked him too many questions, but i wanted him to say something to me and he said something about his--i said, "do you have a family here," and he said, "yes, my family lives here." well, he wouldn't say his mother or anything, and i didn't ask him everything. miss douthit. well---- mr. jenner. all right. (discussion off the record.) mr. jenner. did you notice anything in addition to the hangers with respect to these clothes? were the articles of clothing enclosed in any kind of a bag or paper, plastic, or otherwise? mrs. bledsoe. no, just on hangers. mr. jenner. just on hangers. mrs. bledsoe. but i didn't pay any attention to what kind of--i think maybe a coat. i don't know what it was, a sweater or something. mr. jenner. did you see how many articles of clothing were there? mrs. bledsoe. oh, about four. mr. jenner. and none of them was enclosed in any kind of a container, plastic or otherwise? mrs. bledsoe. no. mr. jenner. was he pleasant during all of the conversation you had with him? mrs. bledsoe. was the first day. next day didn't talk any more. i didn't talk to him. mr. jenner. as soon as he--recalling to mind that he paid you the $ . mrs. bledsoe. yes. mr. jenner. did any further conversation take place after he paid you the $ ? mrs. bledsoe. yes; that is when he asked where the grocery store was. mr. jenner. i see. what else? mrs. bledsoe. well, he didn't say anything about going to get the rest of his things. i think that he must have been--said that after he came back with the other bag. mr. jenner. must have said what? mrs. bledsoe. where was the grocery store, after he come back and got the other---- mr. jenner. so, your recollection presently serves you that he paid you the $ and no further conversation took place? mrs. bledsoe. no. mr. jenner. he turned and left the room? mrs. bledsoe. i--he was--i was in the room, i just walked out. mr. jenner. you walked out after the transaction, financially, was complete? mrs. bledsoe. i went and he paid--he had already paid me but i wanted him to put his name on here. mr. jenner. on your register? mrs. bledsoe. on this [indicating]. mr. jenner. he did that---- mrs. bledsoe. yes. mr. jenner. in your presence? mrs. bledsoe. yes; in the living room. mr. jenner. your recollection was that he wrote the words "lee oswald"? mrs. bledsoe. lee oswald. mr. jenner. then did he leave your home? mrs. bledsoe. yes; huh. mr. jenner. without saying anything to you? mrs. bledsoe. no. mr. jenner. and he was gone--did he return? mrs. bledsoe. yes; within about minutes, i guess. mr. jenner. and he was gone about minutes? mrs. bledsoe. and got the rest of his things. mr. jenner. when he returned did you see him before he entered your home? mrs. bledsoe. i don't remember. mr. jenner. do you have a recollection of having seen him before he entered his room? mrs. bledsoe. no. mr. jenner. when did you become aware of the fact he had returned? mrs. bledsoe. well, i must have heard him, or he might have come in and put his milk in the icebox. mr. jenner. well, he didn't get the milk, as far as i recall, until you'd advised him where the grocery store was. mrs. bledsoe. uh-huh. mr. jenner. that was after he had returned from the---- mrs. bledsoe. from the---- mr. jenner. after this -minute interval? i am just sticking for the moment to the time that he returned to your home after minutes. mrs. bledsoe. uh-huh. mr. jenner. he had put his name in your register and in your presence, in the living room, and turned and left your home and returned in minutes; now, is that right? it's that point that i am concentrating on. when did you become aware that he had returned on that occasion and how? mrs. bledsoe. well, i don't know--i guess he come and put the things in the icebox. i don't even remember where i was. mr. jenner. i see. so, that you didn't see him return to your home? mrs. bledsoe. i didn't see him come in. mr. jenner. didn't see him come in? mrs. bledsoe. no. mr. jenner. and you didn't know what he had with him at that point? mrs. bledsoe. no. mr. jenner. to the best of your ability where was he in your home when you became aware of his presence on his return after that minutes? mrs. bledsoe. i must have been in the kitchen and he came back there and put the milk in, i guess. mr. jenner. did he have milk with him after he returned that minutes? mrs. bledsoe. no, not the minutes. that was the bag. mr. jenner. see, this is what i'm trying to concentrate on for the moment, before you get the milk. and i am trying to take it sequentially. he paid the $ and signed the register in your living room? mrs. bledsoe. yes. mr. jenner. and without any further words to you he turned and left your home, is that accurate? mrs. bledsoe. yes; that's about right. mr. jenner. he returned in minutes? mrs. bledsoe. uh-huh. mr. jenner. now, sticking right to that point, when did you become aware of the fact that he was then back in your home, that is, at that point? mrs. bledsoe. that he--he hadn't gotten the milk yet? mr. jenner. no; this is when he first returned. mrs. bledsoe. well, i don't know. i was just around the house. i didn't pay any attention to him. mr. jenner. so, i take it, then, when he made that first trip back, you didn't see him? mrs. bledsoe. no. mr. jenner. you don't know what he had with him on that occasion? mrs. bledsoe. well, i guess he had the bag, didn't he? mr. jenner. i want to stick with what you knew at that instant of time. what you found out afterwards, i'll go into that in a moment. you didn't see him return? mrs. bledsoe. no. mr. jenner. you don't know what he had with him when he returned? mrs. bledsoe. no. mr. jenner. at that instance, because you didn't see him? mrs. bledsoe. no. mr. jenner. but, you were aware; now, you became aware of the fact that he did return? mrs. bledsoe. yes. mr. jenner. did you have a conversation with him at that point? mrs. bledsoe. no. mr. jenner. when did you become aware and i gather from your earlier testimony you became aware that he had brought that into your home, or there was in your home some additional luggage. when you first saw him he had this soft canvas bag, or canvas bag, whether it was soft or not that is uncertain. mrs. bledsoe. yes. mr. jenner. and then you became aware later that day that there was another piece of luggage, and, am i correct about that? mrs. bledsoe. now, i think he said he was going to get some more. he was going to get some more and he had some boots, too, in his hand. i--maybe he brought those the last time. i don't remember. mr. jenner. what kind of boots? mrs. bledsoe. well, they looked like they were about up to here [indicating]. mr. jenner. up to the knee? mrs. bledsoe. no; about there [indicating]. mr. jenner. oh,---- mrs. bledsoe. there. mr. jenner. just a little above the ankle? mrs. bledsoe. uh-huh. mr. jenner. about inches above the ankle? mrs. bledsoe. i don't know what they used them for. mrs. jenner. were they cowboy boots. mrs. bledsoe. no; it wasn't cowboy boots. mr. jenner. were they canvas, leather, or rubber? mrs. bledsoe. no; just leather. mr. jenner. heavy-soled? mrs. bledsoe. heavy-soled. mr. jenner. heavy-soled. rubber soles? mrs. bledsoe. oh, no; leather. mr. jenner. any hobnails in them? mrs. bledsoe. no. mr. jenner. hard heel or flat heel? i mean, flat sole and heel? mrs. bledsoe. oh, they had a heel, too. i remember them having that. he must have brought those in when he brought those the last time. mr. jenner. you do not recall his having the boots at the time you first--at the first time you talked to him? mrs. bledsoe. no; i don't believe he did. mr. jenner. but, you became aware of the boots afterward? mrs. bledsoe. uh-huh. mr. jenner. at, or about, or after the time he returned from this -minute absence? mrs. bledsoe. uh-huh. mr. jenner. and was it at the time you noticed the boots, did you also notice that he had additional items of luggage? mrs. bledsoe. well, he went to get the luggage. mr. jenner. did he say that? mrs. bledsoe. no; i don't know whether he did or not. i know he--i don't know. mr. jenner. did you have a thought in mind when he left after he paid you the $ and signed your register that he was going somewhere to obtain additional articles of clothing? mrs. bledsoe. well, i thought that. mr. jenner. you thought that? he didn't say anything to you about that, however? mrs. bledsoe. no; he didn't say anything. didn't talk much. mr. jenner. it is clear in your mind that he just turned around after you finished the transaction and left and returned in minutes? mrs. bledsoe. i thought he said he had to get some groceries, but maybe that was after he got the luggage, i don't remember. mr. jenner. you had become aware that afternoon that he had additional articles of luggage? mrs. bledsoe. come in about , about he got the rest of the luggage. mr. jenner. now, this additional article of luggage, would you describe it, as compared with---- mrs. bledsoe. i didn't pay any---- mr. jenner. please. as compared with this canvas bag, blue in color, that you just told me about? mrs. bledsoe. no; i didn't pay no attention to it at all. it was just a piece of luggage. mr. jenner. well, was it a---- mrs. bledsoe. i don't---- mr. jenner. what i would call a suitcase or what you might call a suitcase? mrs. bledsoe. no; it wasn't a regular suitcase, but just something inexpensive, just something the boys have, and i didn't pay any attention to him. mr. jenner. was it hard-sided? mrs. bledsoe. no; it was a--you know, it was weak, you know. mr. jenner. uh-huh. it was weak. was it strong enough so that it had a rectangular shape? mrs. bledsoe. no. mr. jenner. you know what i mean by suitcase? mrs. bledsoe. yes. mr. jenner. it is reasonably firm and hard, and has a handle on it? mrs. bledsoe. no; it wasn't that way. one of those inexpensive kind of things, but i don't know whether it was canvas or what. mr. jenner. was it firmer in shape than the canvas bag you have described to me that he had earlier? mrs. bledsoe. no. well, i think it was chuck full. mr. jenner. you know it was? mrs. bledsoe. uh-huh. it was, i remember. i don't---- mr. jenner. do you remember the color? mrs. bledsoe. no. one of them was blue, and i don't know which one or anything about it. mr. jenner. i see. miss douthit. let me ask her something. mary, would it help you to remember this if you would just begin, you were out in the yard, and you went around and interviewed this man there, did you stand in the yard, or go in your room and talk? did he put up his things then before he came across the hall to talk to you? when did he ask you about groceries? after he signed your register did he go back in his room and hang his clothes up, or what happened? would it help if you just sit here idly without anybody asking you questions and see? did you go back out in the yard after he paid you the money, and while he was gone--if you can, just retrace your steps without anybody interrupting you. could you begin and go again out in the yard, and went around and saw this man here, and he told you he wanted to rent a room, whether you stood on the porch and talked to him, or whether he brought his things and you went on and showed him the room? how far is the room from where your front door was? if you go down a hall, how far? did you go over there and talk to him and make arrangements about the rent of the room? did he hang up his clothes while he was in the room? did he--if you can just trace your steps and give it to him. i ask you to do that, and i know it is confusing, but that's all he wants. mrs. bledsoe. well, i am getting tired. miss douthit. all he wants is the truth, and i thought maybe you might, for the sake of the record, you know---- mrs. bledsoe. well, i would have--we have said most everything. miss douthit. i know it, but just do it one more time. the man was standing at your front door---- mrs. bledsoe. i am getting tired, because i have had a stroke, you see. miss douthit. did you go back out in the yard? mrs. bledsoe. no; i stayed in. miss douthit. did he leave your house twice? now, you said he went and got a bag and brought it back? mrs. bledsoe. yes; he did, brought back the bag. miss douthit. then he went back again? mrs. bledsoe. uh-huh. miss douthit. how long was he--all i want to know is just, if you can just tell that in your own words without any questions. could you just do that? mrs. bledsoe. well, i'd rather they asked, because---- miss douthit. i know, but it is hard for them to ask these particular questions, because they don't know exactly what happened. all they want to do is to say that you were in the room with him, and put this little bag down and hung up his clothes, and came across the hall and signed the register, see. mrs. bledsoe. well, that's all. i don't know whether he put his clothes and what in the other room. i don't know whether he put his bag---- miss douthit. was there a closet in there? mrs. bledsoe. yes. miss douthit. well, were you with him when he put the clothes in the closet, or did you go on across the hall and leave him? mrs. bledsoe. oh, no; i didn't pay any attention to him. miss douthit. did you leave his presence--mary, pardon me, i am not--this is not for the record. mr. jenner. no; that's fine, leave it on the record. miss douthit. all right. when the man was on your front porch. mrs. bledsoe. yes. miss douthit. he had a blue bag in there? mrs. bledsoe. uh-huh. miss douthit. and you don't know whether it was round or bulging, you just don't know? mrs. bledsoe. no. miss douthit. you don't know whether it had a long strap or a little handle, do you? mrs. bledsoe. i think it had a handle. miss douthit. but, it wasn't one you sling over your shoulder? mrs. bledsoe. no. miss douthit. all right, can you go ahead? mrs. bledsoe. clothes were sort of hanging over here [indicating]. miss douthit. uh-huh. not covered or anything? mrs. bledsoe. no. miss douthit. you couldn't tell anybody about what color the clothes were, could you? mrs. bledsoe. no. miss douthit. did you stand in the yard and talk to the young man? or immediately go into the room? mrs. bledsoe. well, i immediately--i was talking to him, but i had to go in immediately, because he wanted to see the room. miss douthit. all right. how far is it, mrs. bledsoe, from where you met this man at the front door until you showed him the room? mrs. bledsoe. well, it is about foot, and all that time i had to size him up, you see. miss douthit. you were talking to him as you went down the hall? mrs. bledsoe. yes; getting---- miss douthit. is that where you learned that he was married, as you were walking down the hall? mrs. bledsoe. no; he told me he was married before we went in the house. miss douthit. all right, then, when you got to the room, did you both walk inside the room, or stand in the door and talk? mrs. bledsoe. i stood in the door, and he went in and looked at it and took it. miss douthit. did he keep his clothes? mrs. bledsoe. i didn't pay any attention. miss douthit. when he was talking to you, you don't know what he did, just stood and talked to you? mrs. bledsoe. uh-huh. miss douthit. did you leave his presence before he came into your room and signed the register? mrs. bledsoe. now, that, melody---- miss douthit. were you with him? and took him into the room, and---- mrs. bledsoe. says, "i'll take the room." miss douthit. did you leave him in the room and you go on across to your room? how far is your room from where you rented his room? mrs. bledsoe. right next to it. no; he came on in, he came on back behind me. miss douthit. he never left your presence from the time you went in this room until he came over here? mrs. bledsoe. yes. miss douthit. all right, did he put his things in your room--or bring them with him? mrs. bledsoe. no; he left them in the room. miss douthit. all right, you don't know where he put them? mrs. bledsoe. no; didn't pay any attention to him. miss douthit. is there a closet in that room? mrs. bledsoe. yes. miss douthit. you don't remember whether he hung his clothes in the closet? mrs. bledsoe. no. miss douthit. but, he left and came over where you were and signed your register, and then did he go back into his room or go down the hall and leave the house? mrs. bledsoe. well, went back in his room. miss douthit. all right. you don't know how long he stayed in his room? mrs. bledsoe. no. miss douthit. now, before he left your room, did he tell you anything about going and getting additional luggage, or did you know when he was leaving the room? mrs. bledsoe. well, i didn't know. he said he was going to get some groceries but it might have been that he said that he was going, i don't know. i don't know. miss douthit. was it when he signed the register that he asked you about the grocery store, or later? mrs. bledsoe. later. miss douthit. all right. then you were in your room when he went back in his room. did you see him leave his room and go out of the house? mrs. bledsoe. yes. miss douthit. then where did you go? mrs. bledsoe. lord have mercy. i don't know. miss douthit. did you go back out in the yard? mrs. bledsoe. no; i don't think i went into the yard. i was fooling around the house. miss douthit. all right, how far from your room is your kitchen? mrs. bledsoe. oh, lord. it is a long ways. it is clear across the living room and dining room and the kitchen is right there [indicating]. miss douthit. all right, but your room is right next to the room you rented to this man? mrs. bledsoe. uh-huh. miss douthit. when did you have knowledge that he was back in his room? mrs. bledsoe. well, when--i guess when he brought these--brought the milk in. miss douthit. how could he go to the grocery store and get milk unless he had already asked you where the grocery store was? mrs. bledsoe. well, i guess he did, he had already. miss douthit. okay, then, it was on his return from getting the bag that he asked you about the grocery store, is that right? or do you remember? mrs. bledsoe. oh, yes; it wasn't anything said about this when he rented--about eating. just--he just rented the room, and not to eat in there. miss douthit. now when you had some kind of knowledge, as you just said, could you hear him back in his room, or could you see him back in his room after he left the first time? mrs. bledsoe. well, i heard him. miss douthit. did he come in and talk to you before he left your house the second time? mrs. bledsoe. no; he never did talk to me at all. he didn't talk. miss douthit. the only conversation you had with this mrs.--with this mr. oswald was when he came and rented the room and signed the register? mrs. bledsoe. and what i got out of him. that's all i could get. miss douthit. now; did you get any information out of him after he signed the register? mrs. bledsoe. well, the next day. miss douthit. i am talking about this one day. mrs. bledsoe. no; didn't get much. miss douthit. then all of your conversation that you had this monday that he rented that room took place at one time, is that correct? mrs. bledsoe. that's correct. miss douthit. now, he came back, and for some reason you knew he was in there. when did he leave your house the second time? mrs. bledsoe. when he went to get the groceries. miss douthit. well, when? mrs. bledsoe. well, i don't know. miss douthit. was he--when he went to leave, did he come in and say, "i'm going to get some groceries." did he? mrs. bledsoe. no. miss douthit. you evidently told him about the grocery store the first time when he signed the register and your conversation with him-- mrs. bledsoe. no; i didn't either. miss douthit. well, you just said you had one conversation with him, and you had no other conversation with him. now, just remember these facts that you had no conversation with him after he paid you the money and signed the register. mrs. bledsoe. well, i wouldn't say, because i don't know what he did. i don't remember. miss douthit. all right, how long after--when he brought his bag back and put it in this room, how long did he stay in that room until he left to go to the grocery store, if that is where he went? mrs. bledsoe. was that the first when he went and got the other bag? miss douthit. uh-huh. mrs. bledsoe. well, or minutes. miss douthit. did he go and use the telephone, or just stay in his room all that time? mrs. bledsoe. no, didn't use the phone until--i think he used it after. miss douthit. did he use your telephone on monday? mrs. bledsoe. after the, yes; after he got everything settled, i think he did. two or three times every day. called his wife, supposed to be. miss douthit. you don't know who he called? mrs. bledsoe. no; i don't know who he called. miss douthit. but, you don't know anything at all about when you gave him this information about the grocery store? we are just trying to get the order here in which this happened, mrs. bledsoe, is all, if you can just remember? mrs. bledsoe. oh, lord. miss douthit. that is the reason i asked you if you could, to write these things down. mrs. bledsoe. well---- miss douthit. i am sorry, but i thought in--i might help you. mr. jenner. did he make a telephone call after he became settled? mrs. bledsoe. uh-huh. mr. jenner. on the th of october? mrs. bledsoe. i wouldn't say for sure, but i guess he did, because he called his wife, supposedly--supposed to have been all the time, but in the morning he called some people about jobs. mr. jenner. yes. mrs. bledsoe. because he talked on the phone and talked gruff, talked gruff to those on the phone, and talked about a job. i heard that. mr. jenner. then, one of the occasions when the gentleman interviewed you--were secret service and fbi people--there is a notation that you recalled that on monday afternoon that he did call his wife? mrs. bledsoe. uh-huh. mr. jenner. now, does that refresh your recollection, that he did call her the same day that he moved in here on---- mrs. bledsoe. well, i guess he did, uh-huh. mr. jenner. and, were you aware of the fact that he was using the telephone? mrs. bledsoe. oh, i told him he could use the phone to get him a job and call his wife. mr. jenner. and were you aware of any occasion on monday when you had your own mental conception that he was actually talking with his wife? mrs. bledsoe. well, it didn't--i wasn't interested at all. he--i wasn't--i didn't think about it at all. when i got interested is when he called, talking in that foreign language. mr. jenner. now, the first time you heard him talking in the foreign language was when? mrs. bledsoe. as well as i can guess, it was a wednesday. mr. jenner. wednesday? mrs. bledsoe. wednesday afternoon, but he came on---- mr. jenner. now, so you assume that the other calls he made on monday, since he did not, i take it, did not speak in a foreign language, or you didn't hear him speak in a foreign language on monday? mrs. bledsoe. no. mr. jenner. and you didn't hear him do so on tuesday? mrs. bledsoe. no. mr. jenner. first time you heard him to do that was wednesday? mrs. bledsoe. yes. mr. jenner. well---- miss douthit. ask her if she ever heard him talk to anybody on the telephone in english. that is what---- mr. jenner. well, i have assumed that you did hear him talk with people on the telephone using the english language? mrs. bledsoe. well, was about jobs, about getting a job. he called people to get jobs, and then he would become almost mad, and sometimes he was mad. mr. jenner. what did he say? mrs. bledsoe. well, i don't know, but he was mad. mr. jenner. about what? mrs. bledsoe. about what they were talking about. he would get in a bad humor, and then the day he made that call, he---- mr. jenner. which call? mrs. bledsoe. that call. mr. jenner. wednesday? the call in which he spoke in a foreign language? mrs. bledsoe. he was real mad. mr. jenner. he was angry with the person to whom he was speaking over the telephone? mrs. bledsoe. uh-huh. mr. jenner. but, you couldn't understand what he was saying? mrs. bledsoe. no. mr. jenner. so, you don't know whether he was angry with the person, or angry with someone else and explaining it to the person on the phone about something in anger? mrs. bledsoe. i know he talked in a--he talked in a, i guess it was a foreign language, and i don't know what it was. mr. jenner. just sounded irritated? mrs. bledsoe. uh-huh. mr. jenner. was there ever an occasion when you saw him in possession, either in his room, or carrying a long object wrapped in paper or a blanket or---- mrs. bledsoe. no. mr. jenner. or something as long as inches long? mrs. bledsoe. no. mr. jenner. seven or eight inches wide? mrs. bledsoe. didn't have anything like that with him. mr. jenner. anything that you thought could be curtain rods or---- mrs. bledsoe. uh-huh. mr. jenner. or shades that are on the spring, did he ever have any package that looked as though that sort of thing might be contained in it? mrs. bledsoe. no. mr. jenner. you saw nothing of that nature in his room? mrs. bledsoe. no. mr. jenner. now, would you describe the room? was it tastefully decorated or--shades, curtains? there was no need for him to have any--bring anything in to decorate that room, was there? mrs. bledsoe. no. mr. jenner. did he do so? mrs. bledsoe. no. mr. jenner. brought nothing in of that nature? mrs. bledsoe. no. mr. jenner. and there was no discussion with you on that subject? mrs. bledsoe. no. mr. jenner. you do have a distinct recollection, do you, that he was there on friday, that would be the th, i think? mrs. bledsoe. friday. that is the day that he stayed in his room all day. mr. jenner. stayed in his room all day long? mrs. bledsoe. just went to the bathroom and came back. mr. jenner. that was friday, october ? mrs. bledsoe. uh-huh. mr. jenner. on the th, that would be saturday the th of october, did he receive any phone calls? mrs. bledsoe. yes. mr. jenner. would you tell me about that? mrs. bledsoe. well, i think he called somebody--somebody called him, and i judged it was his wife. mr. jenner. did you answer the phone, or did he? mrs. bledsoe. no; my son answered. mr. jenner. your son answered the phone? mrs. bledsoe. and he called him to the phone, and seemed like that she was going to have a child and---- mr. jenner. did you gather this from what you heard him say? mrs. bledsoe. from what they said. mr. jenner. from his end of the conversation? mrs. bledsoe. from him, and then i thought he was going to move, and you see, i was tickled to death, so, then said, "well, i will meet her," or, said that he would meet her, said he would go to the hospital and meet her, see, but he didn't never get to it, i judged that is what he said. mr. jenner. you heard enough of the conversation that you have the recollection that he said something about his wife possibly having to go to the hospital? mrs. bledsoe. yes. mr. jenner. for the delivery of her child? mrs. bledsoe. yes. mr. jenner. was this the first time you had any knowledge that his wife was with child? mrs. bledsoe. yes. mr. jenner. did you say anything about that to him? mrs. bledsoe. no; i didn't mention it. i never did mention about that man talking to him either, because it wasn't any of my business. mr. jenner. which man? mrs. bledsoe. this man who called and talked to him in the foreign language. i never did see him. mr. jenner. how did you know it was a man? mrs. bledsoe. well, i just judged that it was. mr. jenner. you heard his end of the conversation? he was talking in a foreign language? mrs. bledsoe. yes. mr. jenner. you assumed from that that whoever was on the other line was likewise talking in a foreign language, and you assumed a man, though you didn't know? mrs. bledsoe. i don't know, so, i didn't say that, because i don't know, but i never did say anything about it. mr. jenner. i believe that's about all i have. mr. ball. all right. mrs. bledsoe. what time is it? i'm tired. mr. ball. it is minutes until . mrs. bledsoe. i guess he is going to ask something, too, and i will be up here at . mr. ball. mrs. bledsoe, this deposition will be written up by the reporter, and you can take it and look it over if you wish and change it in any way and sign it, or if you wish to waive the signature we will have it written up and send it to the commission as it is. do you have any preference that way? do you want her to waive the signature? miss douthit. i think she can waive it. i don't see any reason for her to sign it. mr. ball. then can we, on the advice of your attorney, will you waive the signature? mrs. bledsoe. yes. mr. ball. fine. you will know that you won't be bothered any more then. thank you very much, mrs. bledsoe. mr. jenner. we do want you to know that we appreciate your coming in. testimony of william w. whaley the testimony of william w. whaley was taken at : p.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. david w. belin, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. belin. would you want to stand and raise your right hand. do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. whaley. i do, sir. mr. belin. would you state your name, please. mr. whaley. william w. whaley. mr. belin. you live in dallas, mr. whaley? mr. whaley. yes, sir. mr. belin. you previously testified before the commission in washington, is that correct? mr. whaley. yes, sir. mr. belin. now before you came to washington, did you and i ever meet? mr. whaley. your face is familiar, sir. i still can't tell you whether i knew you here, or in washington, or where? mr. belin. let me ask you this. mr. whaley. you refresh my memory. mr. belin. i will try to refresh your memory here. when did you come to washington, approximately? mr. whaley. well, it's been about or weeks ago, sir. i don't remember the exact date. mr. belin. you testified before the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy in washington, did you not? mr. whaley. yes, sir. mr. belin. now mr. ball and i were with you earlier today over the noon hour, is that correct? mr. whaley. that's correct, sir. mr. belin. mr. ball and i saw you in washington, is that correct? mr. whaley. now i don't know if that is correct or not, but your face is very familiar. mr. belin. you think you have seen me before? mr. whaley. i don't know. mr. belin. it might have been in washington when you were there? mr. whaley. yes, sir; it could have been. mr. belin. mr. whaley, today at noon there were six people including yourself that got in the car to travel that route that you drove a passenger on november , is that correct? mr. whaley. yes, sir. mr. belin. one of them is sitting here in this room, dr. goldberg, over there. do you see him? mr. whaley. yes, sir. mr. belin. then you and i got in the car, and then secret service agent john joe hewlett. we drove in his car and he was the driver, wasn't he? mr. whaley. yes, sir. mr. belin. then there was mr. joe ball, joseph a. ball, and then a mr. davis, this tall light-haired person? mr. whaley. yes, sir. mr. belin. mr. davis is from the attorney general's office in texas. now what is the fact as to whether or not we went to the greyhound bus depot here in dallas? mr. whaley. yes, sir. mr. belin. did you point out the place where you said you picked up this passenger? mr. whaley. i did, sir. mr. belin. we had a stopwatch, didn't we? mr. whaley. yes, sir. mr. belin. then you directed us to take a certain route, is that correct? mr. whaley. that's correct. mr. belin. what was the route from the greyhound bus depot that you directed us? mr. whaley. on the right from the greyhound and lamar to jackson; right on jackson and left at austin and right at wood. mr. belin. all right. mr. whaley. then left on houston, which is the approach to the viaduct. mr. belin. then what did you do when you got to houston? you turned left? mr. whaley. i said west to houston. mr. belin. how far did you go? mr. whaley. you go on the approach past the union terminal and up the ramp which is called the houston street viaduct. mr. belin. then what? mr. whaley. you run into zangs boulevard. mr. belin. how far on zangs? mr. whaley. to beckley. beckley crosses it. we got to the intersection of zangs and beckley. mr. belin. did we go about the speed you drove that day? mr. whaley. almost. going across the viaduct is just about the speed, but he slowed down going up zangs boulevard. he slowed down a little slower than i was going. my normal rate of speed, i don't remember the exact speed i was traveling, but i assume it was normal, because that is the way i travel all the time when traffic is clear enough. mr. belin. your normal rate of speed would be a little bit faster than the rate that he took? mr. whaley. yes, sir. in other words, not enough to make over half a minute difference in the timing. mr. belin. was traffic clearer on that particular day of november ? mr. whaley. it was extra clear, for some reason. that street was clear except when i hit beckley. when i hit beckley, there was cars turning to the left, and i had to stop for the light. mr. belin. when we got to beckley at noon today, or shortly thereafter, the traffic light was green, but you told us you had stopped, so we waited through the red light, did we not? mr. whaley. yes, sir. mr. belin. then he turned on beckley? mr. whaley. yes, sir. mr. belin. heading south? mr. whaley. yes, sir. mr. belin. now when this man that you picked up on november got into your cab, where did he say he wanted to go? mr. whaley. to the block of north beckley. mr. belin. i will take you back to november . you turned south on beckley and then where did you go as you turned south on beckley? mr. whaley. i went right up on beckley headed toward the block. mr. belin. then what happened? mr. whaley. when i got to beckley almost to the intersection of beckley and neely, he said, "this will do right here," and i pulled up to the curb. mr. belin. was that the block of north beckley? mr. whaley. no, sir; that was the block. mr. belin. you let him out not at the block but the block of north beckley? mr. whaley. yes, sir. mr. belin. had you crossed neely street yet when you let him off? mr. whaley. no, sir. mr. belin. about how far north of neely street did you let the man off? mr. whaley. about feet. mr. belin. then you went down to the police station to identify this man? mr. whaley. yes, sir. mr. belin. you saw a lineup? mr. whaley. yes, sir. mr. belin. do you remember what number he was in the lineup at all? mr. whaley. there was four of them, sir, and from the right to the left, he was no. . mr. belin. starting from the right to the left, from his right or your right? mr. whaley. from your right, sir, which would have been his left. there were numbers above their heads, sir. mr. belin. mr. whaley, what number did you say the man was in the lineup? mr. whaley. no. . mr. belin. from the right or from your right? mr. whaley. from my left. mr. belin. no. ? mr. whaley. they brought out four of them and stood them up there, and he was under no. . i mentioned he was the third one that come out. there were four and all handcuffed together. mr. belin. did you sign an affidavit for the dallas police department? mr. whaley. yes, sir. mr. belin. i will hand you a document which i am calling whaley deposition exhibit a, and ask you to say if your signature appears on there? mr. whaley. yes, sir; that is my signature. mr. belin. now i notice in the statement there it says that you traveled wood street to houston street, turned left and went over the viaduct to zangs boulevard. you see that statement there? mr. whaley. yes. mr. belin. "traveled zangs to beckley and turned left and traveled on beckley until i reached the block of north beckley. when i got in the block of north beckley he said this will do and i stopped." now is that what you told them on that day? mr. whaley. yes, sir; that is what i told them on that day. mr. belin. well, was that the fact that you drove until you reached the block, or not? mr. whaley. no, sir, i didn't drive until i reached the block. i drove until i reached beckley and neely. if you would be in my place when they took me down there, when they had to force their way through the reporters to get me in the office, they wrote that up, and i signed it, because i told them that the man said he wanted to go to the block of north beckley. mr. belin. all right. now in here it says, "the no. man who i now know is lee harvey oswald was the man who i carried from the greyhound bus station * * *" was this the no. or the no. man? mr. whaley. i signed that statement before they carried me down to see the lineup. i signed this statement, and then they carried me down to the lineup at : in the afternoon. mr. belin. you signed this affidavit before you saw the lineup? mr. whaley. well, now, let's get this straight. you are getting me confused. mr. belin. now, i will put it this way. there was an fbi reporter, fbi interviewer with you? mr. belin. yes, sir; there was. mr. belin. and there was an interview with the dallas police department? mr. whaley. yes. and bill alexander from the district attorney's office was there, also. mr. belin. all right, now, the last sentence. mr. whaley. let me tell you how they fixed this up. they had me in the office saying that. they were writing it out on paper, and they wrote it out on paper, and this officer, leavelle, i think that is his name, before he finished and before i signed he wanted me to go with him to the lineup, so i went to the lineup, and i come back and he asked me which one it was, which number it was, and i identified the man, and we went back up in the office again, and then they had me sign this. that is as near as i can remember. my recollection for that afternoon in that office was very disturbed because everytime they would open the door, some flash camera would flash in your face and everybody coming in and out and asking you questions. mr. belin. you mean reporters? mr. whaley. i made this statement more to bill alexander, because i tried to talk to him more. everybody was trying to talk to me at once. mr. belin. when you saw the statement the first time, did you see the statement before you went down to see the lineup? mr. whaley. no; i didn't see the statement. i don't think i did. i am not for sure. i think i signed it after i came back. it was on paper. they were writing it up on paper. mr. belin. they were writing? mr. whaley. before i left there, i signed this typewritten, because they had to get, a stenographer typed it up. i had to wait. mr. belin. but was this before or after you saw the lineup? mr. whaley. after she typed it up. it was after. mr. belin. it was after? mr. whaley. that is when i signed it, after. mr. belin. now, when you signed it--what i want to know is, before you went down, had they already put on there a statement that the man you saw was the no. man in the lineup? mr. whaley. i don't remember that. i don't remember whether it said three or two, or what. mr. belin. did they have any statements on there before you went down to the lineup? mr. whaley. i never saw what they had in there. it was all written out by hand. the statement i saw, i think, was this one, and that could be writing. i might not even seen this one yet. i signed my name because they said that is what i said. mr. belin. well, mr. whaley---- mr. whaley. i know, sir, but i don't think you can understand what i had to put up with that afternoon. mr. belin. you mean with the press? mr. whaley. yes, sir; with everything. mr. belin. well, i do understand, sir, and i appreciate that you were under a great deal of pressure at that time, and i want to try and get at the actual facts, and that is why we asked you to come back to testify again, because we wanted to know basically whether or not the man that you drove in the cab got off in the block or the block. mr. whaley. the man i drove in the cab got off where i told you he got off, this morning. i picked him up, and i showed you where i picked him up, and the trip runs cents on the meter. he gave me a dollar and got off and he never spoke a word to me, except he wanted to go to north beckley. mr. belin. do you remember a woman coming up to the cab? mr. whaley. yes, sir; i remember that. mr. belin. what happened then? mr. whaley. the lady, i don't remember whether she was very old, but she was middle-aged. she bent down and stuck in and said, "can i have this cab?" and he cracked the door open like he was going to get out. i thought he was going to let her have it. i told her there would be another one, and she said, "would you please call me one." mr. belin. did he say anything to the woman, that you can remember? mr. whaley. when she wanted to know if she could have the cab, i don't know, but i got a faint hunch he did tell her she could have this one, or something like that. what it was, i was watching my left-hand side. i wanted to pull out when the light changed. mr. belin. now when you saw a lineup down at the police station---- mr. whaley. he didn't have on the same clothes. he had on a white t-shirt and black pants, and that is all he had on. mr. belin. do you remember now whether the man that you saw there was the no. or the no. man? mr. whaley. i will admit he was no. . mr. belin. no. from your left, or from your right? mr. whaley. he was the third man out in the line of four as they walked out in a line. they put the first man out on the right, and the last one on my left, and as near as i can remember, he was no. , but it was the man i hauled. mr. belin. it says here the no. . mr. whaley. well, i am not trying to mix nobody up. i'm giving it to you the best of my ability. mr. belin. your memory right now is that it was the no. man? mr. whaley. that is the way it is right now. i don't think it will change again. but on that afternoon, all i saw was the man that i hauled up there, and they asked me which number he was, and i said no. . i am almost sure i did, but i couldn't get up to swear to it that i did, sir. mr. belin. just one more minute, if you would, please? mr. whaley, earlier in your testimony here you said that lee harvey oswald was no. . do you remember saying that? mr. whaley. yes, sir; but i meant that he was the third one out when they walked out with him. i said from my right. mr. belin. from your right he was no. ? mr. whaley. yes, sir. mr. belin. what number was over his head? mr. whaley. well, they--when they walked over the line and they stopped him, no. was over his head, but he was pulling on both of the other men on each side and arguing with this detective, so he didn't stay under any certain number. he was moving like that. mr. belin. did you ever see him later on television? mr. whaley. no, sir; i didn't. mr. belin. you never did see his picture in the paper? mr. whaley. i saw his picture in the paper the next morning, sir. mr. belin. that would have been sunday morning, the th? mr. whaley. i guess it was, if you say it was, sir. mr. belin. i don't want to---- mr. whaley. i don't want to get you mixed up and get your whole investigation mixed up through my ignorance, but a good defense attorney could take me apart. i get confused. i try to tell you exactly what happened, to the best of my ability, when they brought oswald out in the lineup of four. he was the third man out. i don't know which way they count them. mr. belin. we don't want you to be concerned about affecting the investigation one way or the other by what you say. what we want you to say is tell us what you know, to the best of your recollection. mr. whaley. that is exactly what i am doing, sir. mr. belin. let me ask you this. what day of the week did you take this cab passenger, on a friday or saturday? mr. whaley. i would have to see my trip sheet. mr. belin. you don't remember? mr. whaley. no, sir. mr. belin. was it the day of the motorcade? mr. whaley. the day of the president's parade, yes, sir. mr. belin. now, was it that day that you went down to the police station to see the lineup? mr. whaley. no, sir. mr. belin. was it the next day? mr. whaley. yes, sir. mr. belin. the next day you went down to the dallas police station and saw a lineup of how many people? mr. whaley. four people. mr. belin. these men came out and there were numbers above their heads? mr. whaley. the numbers were stationary. looked through a black silk screen at them. in other words, they were very dim, the numbers. mr. belin. what did you see as the number over the man that you identified as having been in your cab that day? mr. whaley. no. . mr. belin. did you see a picture of that man in the paper at any time? mr. whaley. saturday morning, sir; following the event on friday. mr. belin. you saw his picture in the paper? mr. whaley. yes, sir. mr. belin. was that the same man that you identified as no. in the lineup? mr. whaley. yes, sir. mr. belin. did you ever see his picture in the paper again? mr. whaley. no, sir; i take that back, sir. i saw the picture in the paper when they had, when ruby killed him at the time between the two detectives. mr. belin. was the man in connection with the ruby matter with the two detectives, did it have his name in the paper as lee harvey oswald? was his name in the paper then when you saw his picture? mr. whaley. well, i don't think they had it that way. i think they just had it oswald. i am not sure what they had under it. i am not for sure, but i did see the picture. mr. belin. was that the same man you carried in your cab on friday? mr. whaley. yes, sir. mr. belin. was that the man you identified at the police station? mr. whaley. yes, sir. mr. belin. it is your best recollection, if i understand it, that this was the no. man in the lineup? mr. whaley. that's right, sir. that was from the left now. no. from my left. i was facing him. mr. belin. right. i mean correct. now, your affidavit which is whaley's deposition exhibit a, the last sentence says, "the no. man who i now know as lee harvey oswald was the man who i carried from the greyhound bus station to the block of north beckley." now you say it was the no. man from your left, is that correct? mr. whaley. from my left. no. from my right. mr. belin. what about whether or not you carried him to the block of north beckley. did you carry him there? mr. whaley. no, sir. that is where he asked me. that is where i put on my trip sheet. mr. belin. you had it on the trip sheet the block of north beckley? mr. whaley. yes, sir. mr. belin. when did you put it on your trip sheet, before or after you let him out? mr. whaley. after, sir; a good while after. mr. belin. why? mr. whaley. well, see, sometimes when you are busy you make three or four trips before you ever write one up. mr. belin. why didn't you put it on your trip sheet for instead of north beckley? mr. whaley. because that is what he told me and that is what i remember when i wrote the trip up. i imagine there were hundreds of trip sheets, because people get off before they get where they are going. but i remember the thing that way. mr. belin. when did you first ascertain or start thinking about it that it was the block of north beckley where you let him off? mr. whaley. well, when the fbi man got in my cab and he wanted to go over the route. mr. belin. when was this? mr. whaley. i don't know the exact date, sir, but it was the next week. mr. belin. in the next week you told the fbi that it was the block? mr. whaley. no, sir; i don't recall. i know i took him to where i let him out. mr. belin. you did? mr. whaley. yes, sir. mr. belin. did you ever tell anyone it was the block of north beckley? mr. whaley. no, sir. i left it said just like i had it on my trip sheet. nobody else asked me about it. mr. belin. when we went out there today, when we started the stopwatch from the greyhound bus station to the block of north beckley, do you know about how many minutes that was on the stop watch? mr. whaley. a little more than minutes, between and minutes. mr. belin. would your trip that day, on november , have been longer or shorter, or about the same time as the trip we took today? mr. whaley. it would be approximately the same time, sir, give or take a few seconds, not minutes. because the man drove just about as near to my driving as possible. we made every light that i made, and we stopped on the lights that i stopped on. mr. belin. let the record show that the stopwatch was minutes and seconds from the commencement of the ride to the end of the ride, and let the record further show that dr. goldberg and mr. robert davis from the texas attorney general's office and i walked back from the point where the deponent whaley told us he let the passenger off at the residence at north beckley, and that this walk took minutes and seconds. and let the record further show that after visiting the rooming house at north beckley--that is what i call the "long way around route,"--was walked from north beckley to the scene of the tippit shooting, which took minutes and seconds at an average walking pace, and this route would be to take beckley to th street and then turn on th street toward patton, and this is not the most direct route. rather, the most direct route would be to take beckley to davis street and then turn left or east on davis, walking a short block to crawford, and taking crawford to th, and then th east to patton, or taking davis street directly to patton, and taking patton down to east th, and that the more direct nature of the later route appears from the map which i believe is commission's exhibit no. , which is the dallas street map. mr. whaley, is there anything else that you care to add, or can you add anything else that might be helpful in this investigation? mr. whaley. no, sir; i can't. mr. belin. we sure appreciate all your help and taking the time to go over the route today. mr. whaley. thank you. i still would like to know where i knew you before. mr. belin. sir, i don't know. now, mr. whaley, if you like, you can come back and read this deposition after it is typed, and sign it before you mail it to washington, or you can waive the signing of it. you have a right to read it and sign it before it goes, or you can waive the reading of it and send it directly to us in washington. mr. whaley. does it make any difference? mr. belin. it does not make any difference. mr. whaley. it will all be what you said and what she took down? mr. belin. what you said? mr. whaley. yes, sir; and what i said? mr. belin. yes. mr. whaley. that will be all right. i will waive the signing of it. testimony of mrs. earlene roberts the testimony of mrs. earlene roberts was taken at : p.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by messrs. joseph a. ball and samuel a. stern, assistant counsel of the president's commission. dr. alfred goldberg was present. mr. ball. would you stand and take the oath? do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before the commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mrs. roberts. yes, sir. mr. ball. will you state your name, please? mrs. roberts. mrs. earlene roberts. mr. ball. and what is your address? mrs. roberts. tremont, now. mr. ball. you used to live at north beckley, didn't you? mrs. roberts. yes; i did. mr. ball. tell me something about yourself, mrs. roberts, where you were born and where you have lived? mrs. roberts. i was born in nashville, tenn., and my mother and father moved to tyler, tex., and i was raised there and married a dallas man. mr. ball. did you go to school in tyler? mrs. roberts. oh, yes. mr. ball. how far through school did you go? mrs. roberts. to my sorrows, i got married in the ninth grade. mr. ball. you did--you got married in the ninth grade? mrs. roberts. yes, sir. mr. ball. did you get married in dallas or in tyler? mrs. roberts. in tyler. mr. ball. did you have some children? mrs. roberts. no; to my sorrows--i couldn't. mr. ball. what did you do in tyler then--until you came to dallas? mrs. roberts. i was a pbx operator at the hotel blackstone. that's where i met my husband. mr. ball. how long have you lived here? mrs. roberts. since . mr. ball. what kind of work have you done? mrs. roberts. well, until he passed away--i didn't work for i didn't have to. he made me a good living, but since that time i have been--well, just, i guess you would call it practical nursing or housekeeping and now i am with an elderly couple--he has cancer--the same kind that sam rayburn had and he's taken with leukemia. mr. ball. that's at the address you have just given us? mrs. roberts. oh, yes. mr. ball. now, you know mrs. johnson, don't you? mrs. roberts. yes; i knew her very muchly so. mr. ball. how long did you work for her? mrs. roberts. well, this last time i was there around months--that was the third time i had went back. mr. ball. when did you start working for her? mrs. roberts. i started working for her in the first time. mr. ball. you did? mrs. roberts. yes, sir. mr. ball. and you worked for her three times altogether? mrs. roberts. yes; i got sick the first time--i'm a diabetic and wasn't able to do the work and one day she called me again and wanted to know if i would do it and i went back and stayed again and i went in a coma and had to leave, and the reason why i left this time, she cut me down so low and the work was too heavy--i wasn't able to do the work. mr. ball. you mean she cut you down on your money? mrs. roberts. oh, yes; and i can't pay my doctor bill and buy my medicine at that price. mr. ball. you mean, she didn't pay you enough--that's the reason you quit? mrs. roberts. that's the reason why i quit--the work was too heavy and i wasn't able to do it and not enough pay. mr. ball. and you were working there in october and november of last fall-- ? mrs. roberts. yes; to my sorrows. mr. ball. why to your sorrows? mrs. roberts. well, he was registered as o. h. lee and i come to find out he was oswald and i wish i had never known it. mr. ball. why? mrs. roberts. well, they put me through the third degree. mr. ball. who did? mrs. roberts. the fbi, secret service, mr. will fritz' men and bill decker's. mr. ball. they did? mrs. roberts. every time i would walk out on the front porch somebody was standing with a camera on me--they had me scared to death. mr. ball. when is the first time you ever saw lee oswald? mrs. roberts. the day he came in and rented the room--the th of october. mr. ball. had you ever heard of the man before? mrs. roberts. no, and he didn't register as oswald--he registered as o. h. lee. mr. ball. did he sign his name? mrs. roberts. o. h. lee. mr. ball. did he sign his own name that way? mrs. roberts. o. h. lee--that's what he was registered as. mr. ball. did you rent it to him, or did mrs. johnson? mrs. roberts. i rented the room to him. mr. ball. you did? mrs. roberts. she talked to him, and she had to go back to the work and that was what i was supposed to do--i rented the rooms--she didn't know what vacancies she had. mr. ball. did you have "room for rent" sign out in the front? mrs. roberts. yes. mr. ball. what time of day did he come in there? mrs. roberts. oh, it was in the early afternoon--i imagine between and o'clock when he came in and looked at the room; and he rented it and paid for it; and then left, and went and got his things and i don't know--it must have been around or o'clock when he come back in. mr. ball. you say he went and got his things--what did he have with him at first when he came there? mrs. roberts. just a little satchel bag and some clothes on a hanger. mr. ball. what kind of a satchel bag? mrs. roberts. one of them little zip kinds. mr. ball. what color was it? mrs. roberts. it was just--don't ask me that for i can't answer that. it was just a dark bag is all i know. mr. ball. how long did he stay that first time? mrs. roberts. oswald? mr. ball. i mean before he went away to get his clothes, when he first came in--you say he rented a room? mrs. roberts. he rented the room and paid me $ for it and he said, "i'll go get my things and i will be back." mr. ball. did he say where he was going to get them? mrs. roberts. no, he didn't. mr. ball. did he leave? mrs. roberts. yes; he left. mr. ball. did he have a car he was riding in? mrs. roberts. i don't know--i didn't see it. mr. ball. did he take a bus? mrs. roberts. i don't know. mr. ball. you don't know? mrs. roberts. no, i don't. i don't remember--you know in a place like that--when you rent a room--i didn't pay no attention. mr. ball. and he came back about what time? mrs. roberts. oh, i imagine around o'clock, maybe. mr. ball. what did he have with him at that time? mrs. roberts. that little zipper satchel bag and some clothes on a hanger. mr. ball. the first time he came to see you he had a zipper satchel bag? mrs. roberts. no; he didn't have nothing when he first come in and rented the room. mr. ball. he didn't have anything? mrs. roberts. no--he just came in. mr. ball. oh, when he came back he had the zipper satchel and the clothes on the hanger, is that right? mrs. roberts. no--he rented the room and paid for it and said, "i'll go get my things." that's when he went and come back with his little satchel bag and some clothes on a hanger, which was a very few. mr. ball. now, did he have anything to say when he came back? mrs. roberts. no. mr. ball. did he tell you where he had been? mrs. roberts. no. mr. ball. did he stay there that night? mrs. roberts. yes. mr. ball. did you ever talk to him about anything? mrs. roberts. no; because he wouldn't talk. mr. ball. did he say "hello"? mrs. roberts. no. mr. ball. or, "goodby"? mrs. roberts. no. mr. ball. or anything? mrs. roberts. he wouldn't say nothing. mr. ball. did you ever speak to him? mrs. roberts. well, yes--i would say, "good afternoon," and he would just maybe look at me--give me a dirty look and keep walking and go on to his room. mr. ball. did he watch television? mrs. roberts. no--in a way--but all he did ever watch the television was if someone in the other rooms had it on, maybe he would come and stand at the back of the couch--not over minutes and go to his room and shut the door and never say a word. mr. ball. did he go out any at night? mrs. roberts. no. mr. ball. did he stay home every night? mrs. roberts. yes--he stayed home every night--i didn't ever know of him going out. if he did, he left after i went to bed and i never knew it. mr. ball. was he gone any weekends? mrs. roberts. he would leave on friday nights--he did say this much--he said, "now, over weekends i will be out of town." he didn't say what town. he said, "i will be going out of town visiting friends." he would leave friday morning for work and he wouldn't come back any more until monday afternoon. mr. ball. now, was one weekend when he didn't come back on monday? mrs. roberts. no; there was one weekend that he didn't go out. mr. ball. which one was that? mrs. roberts. now, as far as--you know what? mr. ball. was that the weekend? mrs. roberts. i think--now, if i had the books, i could tell you. mr. ball. which books? mrs. roberts. the books that are over there on north beckley. i believe it was on the weekend before--when was president kennedy shot? mr. ball. on the d of november. mrs. roberts. what day was that--that was on friday, wasn't it? mr. ball. that was on a friday. mrs. roberts. well, it was on the weekend before that. mr. ball. what happened--what was that? mrs. roberts. he didn't go nowhere. mr. ball. he stayed in all weekend, is that right? mrs. roberts. yes, sir; and then that first thursday, he got up thursday and left for work and he didn't come back no more until friday. mr. ball. he left on thursday and didn't come home on thursday night? mrs. roberts. he didn't spend thursday night there and that was unusual, because he would always leave on friday. that's the best i can do. he was just the type of person you just don't know--and i just thought he didn't like people and he would mix with nobody and he wouldn't say nothing. the only time he would ever say anything was when his rent was due and he was never behind. i'll tell you when it was--it was when he didn't come back on monday, you know, there was a holiday that people took off work. mr. ball. that was armistice day. mrs. roberts. that he said, "i have a long weekend." mr. ball. he didn't come back on that monday? mrs. roberts. no, he didn't come back until the next day. he said he had a long weekend. mr. ball. that was after his long weekend he came back on a tuesday that week? mrs. roberts. yes. mr. ball. do you remember the day the president was shot? mrs. roberts. yes; i remember it--who would forget that? mr. ball. and the police officers came out there? mrs. roberts. yes, sir. mr. ball. do you remember what they said? mrs. roberts. well, it was will fritz' men--it was plainclothesmen and i was at the back doing something and mr. johnson answered the door and they identified themselves and then he called me. mr. ball. what did they say? mrs. roberts. well, they asked him if there was a harvey lee oswald there. mr. ball. what did he say? mrs. roberts. and he says, "i don't know, i'll have to call the housekeeper," and he called me and i went and got the books and i said, "no; there's no one here by that name," and they tried to make me remember and i couldn't, and mrs. johnson come in in the meantime and there wasn't nobody there by that name, and mrs. johnson said, "mrs. roberts, don't you have him?" and, i said, "no; we don't, for here is my book and there is nobody there by that name." we checked it back a year. mr. ball. and you didn't have that name--you didn't ever know his name was lee oswald? mrs. roberts. no--he registered as o. h. lee and they were asking for harvey lee oswald. mr. ball. you say that you saw lee oswald--you say he didn't come home thursday night that week? mrs. roberts. he didn't come home on thursday night that week. mr. ball. and friday was the day the president was shot? had you seen him at any time that friday before the officers came up and knocked on your door? mrs. roberts. no. mr. ball. hadn't he been home? mrs. roberts. oh, let's see--that was the day. mr. ball. that was on a friday---- mrs. roberts. wait a minute, let me think of it. mr. ball. that's on a friday. mrs. roberts. i had better back up a minute--he came home that friday in an unusual hurry. mr. ball. and about what time was this? mrs. roberts. well, it was after president kennedy had been shot and i had a friend that said, "roberts, president kennedy has been shot," and i said, "oh, no." she said, "turn on your television," and i said "what are you trying to do, pull my leg?" and she said, "well, go turn it on." i went and turned it on and i was trying to clear it up--i could hear them talking but i couldn't get the picture and he come in and i just looked up and i said, "oh, you are in a hurry." he never said a thing, not nothing. he went on to his room and stayed about or minutes. mr. ball. as he came in, did you say anything else except, "you are in a hurry"? mrs. roberts. no. mr. ball. did you say anything about the president being shot? mrs. roberts. no. mr. ball. you were working with the television? mrs. roberts. i was trying to clear it up to see what was happening and try to find out about president kennedy. mr. ball. why did you say to this man as he came in, "you are in a hurry,"--why did you say that? mrs. roberts. well, he just never has come in and he was walking unusually fast and he just hadn't been that way and i just looked up and i said, "oh, you are in a hurry." mr. ball. you mean he was walking faster than he usually was? mrs. roberts. yes. mr. ball. when he came in the door, what did he do? mrs. roberts. he just walked in--he didn't look around at me--he didn't say nothing and went on to his room. mr. ball. did he run? mrs. roberts. he wasn't running, but he was walking pretty fast--he was all but running. mr. ball. then, what happened after that? mrs. roberts. he went to his room and he was in his shirt sleeves but i couldn't tell you whether it was a long-sleeved shirt or what color it was or nothing, and he got a jacket and put it on--it was kind of a zipper jacket. mr. ball. had you ever seen him wear that jacket before? mrs. roberts. i can't say i did--if i did, i don't remember it. mr. ball. when he came in he was in a shirt? mrs. roberts. he was in his shirt sleeves. mr. ball. what color was his shirt? do you know? mrs. roberts. i don't remember. i didn't pay that much attention for i was interested in the television trying to get it fixed. mr. ball. had you ever seen that shirt before or seen him wear it--the shirt, or do you know? mrs. roberts. i don't remember--i don't know. mr. ball. you say he put on a separate jacket? mrs. roberts. a jacket. mr. ball. i'll show you this jacket which is commission exhibit --have you ever seen this jacket before? mrs. roberts. well, maybe i have, but i don't remember it. it seems like the one he put on was darker than that. now, i won't be sure, because i really don't know, but is that a zipper jacket? mr. ball. yes--it has a zipper down the front. mrs. roberts. well, maybe it was. mr. ball. it was a zippered jacket, was it? mrs. roberts. yes; it was a zipper jacket. how come me to remember it, he was zipping it up as he went out the door. mr. ball. he was zipping it up as he went out the door? mrs. roberts. yes. mr. ball. then, when you saw him, did you see any part of his belt? mrs. roberts. no. mr. ball. there is some suspicion that when he left there he might have had a pistol or a revolver in his belt; did you see anything like that? mrs. roberts. no; i sure didn't. mr. ball. now, i show you commission exhibit no. --it is a shirt--have you seen that before? mrs. roberts. well, maybe i have. now, that looks kind of like the dark shirt that he had on. mr. ball. now, when oswald came in, he was in a shirt--does this shirt look anything like the shirt he had on? mrs. roberts. it was a dark shirt he had on--i think it was a dark one, but whether it was long sleeve or short sleeve or what--i don't know. mr. ball. does the color of this shirt which i show you here, commission exhibit no. , look anything like the shirt he had on? mrs. roberts. i'm sorry, i just don't know. mr. ball. you are not able to testify as to that--to tell us that? mrs. roberts. no. mr. ball. can you tell me what time it was approximately that oswald came in? mrs. roberts. now, it must have been around o'clock, or maybe a little after, because it was after president kennedy had been shot--what time i wouldn't want to say because---- mr. ball. how long did he stay in the room? mrs. roberts. oh, maybe not over or minutes--just long enough, i guess, to go in there and get a jacket and put it on and he went out zipping it. mr. ball. you recall he went out zipping it--was he running or walking? mrs. roberts. he was walking fast--he was making tracks pretty fast. mr. ball. did he say anything to you as he went out? mrs. roberts. no, sir. mr. ball. did you say anything to him? mrs. roberts. probably wouldn't have gotten no answer. mr. ball. what is the only thing you said to him from the time he came in the house until he left? mrs. roberts. "you sure are in a hurry." mr. ball. is that all? mrs. roberts. that was all. mr. ball. that's all you said to him? mrs. roberts. that's all i said to him. mr. ball. did he say anything to you? mrs. roberts. no. mr. ball. nothing. mrs. roberts. he didn't say nothing--he wouldn't say nothing--period. mr. ball. did he have the same colored pants on when he left, or do you know? mrs. roberts. what? mr. ball. did he have the same colored pants on when he came in as when he went out? mrs. roberts. now, i wouldn't say that because i don't remember--i didn't pay that much attention. i didn't mean to be hateful, but i didn't. mr. ball. now, did it appear to you he had on the same pants or different pants from the time he came in and when he went out? mrs. roberts. well, i just didn't pay that much attention. all i remember--he was zipping up a coat and i was trying to find out about president kennedy--i was still trying to find out about president kennedy--they was broadcasting it then--i was more interested in that. mr. ball. had you ever seen a gun in his room? mrs. roberts. no, sir. mr. ball. had you ever cleaned up his room? mrs. roberts. yes; i cleaned his rooms, but i didn't see no gun. mr. ball. did you ever go through any of his effects? mrs. roberts. oh, no. mr. ball. there was a little wooden commode or closet in there, wasn't there? mrs. roberts. there was a chifforobe--yes. mr. ball. did you ever look in there? mrs. roberts. no, sir; i sure didn't--that's against the rules--to ransack their things. mr. ball. were there any drawers or anything in there? mrs. roberts. yes; there was drawers in that chifforobe and he also had a vanity dresser with four drawers. mr. ball. did you ever look inside of that? mrs. roberts. no; i didn't. mr. ball. after he left the house and at sometime later in the afternoon, these police officers came out, did they? mrs. roberts. well, yes. mr. ball. and they asked you if there was a man named lee oswald there? mrs. roberts. yes. mr. ball. and you told them "no"? mrs. roberts. yes. mr. ball. then what happened after that? mrs. roberts. well, he was trying to make us understand that--i had two new men and they told me--mrs. johnson told me, "go get your keys and let them see in" i had gone to the back and they still had the tv on, and they was broadcasting about kennedy. just as i unlocked the doors fritz' men, two of them had walked in and she come running in and said, "oh, roberts, come here quick. this is this fellow lee in this little room next to yours," and they flashed him on television, is how come us to know. mr. ball. then you knew it was the man? mrs. roberts. yes; and i come in there and she said, "wait," and then again they flashed him back on and i said, "yes, that's him--that's o. h. lee right here in this room." and it was just a little wall there between him and i. mr. ball. that was the first you knew who it was? mrs. roberts. yes, because he was registered as o. h. lee. mr. ball. did you ever know he had a gun in his room? mrs. roberts. no; i sure did not. mr. ball. did you ever appear on a television interview with mr. or mrs. johnson--either one? mrs. roberts. well, no; they was on and would be on and then they had me on twice. mr. ball. on television? mrs. roberts. on television. mr. ball. where were you? mrs. roberts. i was in the living room. mr. ball. and they brought their cameras into the living room? mrs. roberts. they brought their cameras into the living room and took pictures. mr. ball. were you alone? mrs. roberts. well, i was then, because they was questioning me. they asked mr. and mrs. johnson not to be in there at that time. mr. ball. then, they questioned you? mrs. roberts. yes. mr. ball. did you ever have an interview with mr. and mrs. johnson being there? mrs. roberts. well, yes; one time, and then they would question them separate from me. mr. ball. was there any one time when they questioned all three of you together? mrs. roberts. yes--one time. mr. ball. just one time--were you ever on television when you and mrs. johnson were on it alone together? mrs. roberts. she and mr. johnson would be together and then i would be at the back when they put them on television, and then they had me on two different times and i was alone. they taken me when i was standing and showed them where it was. mr. ball. now, on television did they ever ask you if oswald had a gun? mrs. roberts. i don't know. mr. ball. you don't remember? mrs. roberts. i don't remember. mr. ball. did they ever ask you if you knew whether oswald had a gun in his room or not? mrs. roberts. yes; they asked me and i told them "no"--for i didn't. mr. ball. you didn't know whether he had a gun in there or not? mrs. roberts. no--i didn't. mr. ball. you never saw one? mrs. roberts. no, sir. mr. ball. did you tell them that? mrs. roberts. i sure did--i didn't know he had a gun. mr. ball. and when he was zipping up his jacket, his belt was covered? mrs. roberts. was it covered--well--i don't know. i just couldn't answer you--i don't know--i don't remember it. i couldn't any more tell you than the man in the moon whether or not the man's belt was covered or uncovered. all i know he was zipping his coat. mr. ball. let me ask you another question: did you ever talk to a reporter from a french newspaper? mrs. roberts. a french newspaper? mr. ball. yes. mrs. roberts. well, there was people in there from about everywhere, but i don't remember. mr. ball. there was some french newspaperman who claims he interviewed you. mrs. roberts. french? mr. ball. do you remember any french newspapermen interviewing you? mrs. roberts. no, i don't remember, but there were people in there from somewhere but i don't remember where they were from. mr. ball. had you ever heard the name lee harvey oswald before the friday when the police came out? mrs. roberts. no, sir. mr. ball. and you had, of course, thought his name was what? mrs. roberts. o. h. lee. mr. ball. he had paid you, had he? mrs. roberts. he always paid on time. mr. ball. and you made a record of it? mrs. roberts. oh, yes. mr. ball. now, after these police officers came out of there, did you see a gun holster in his room after they had searched it? mrs. roberts. yes--there was one of them little outfits--a little holster and they taken it out and where they got it--i don't know, but it was in the room. they had it in their hands, one of the men was holding it. mr. ball. had you ever seen that before? mrs. roberts. no; i hadn't. mr. ball. let me ask you something about his habits again--how early would he leave his room in the morning? mrs. roberts. well, he would leave around o'clock, maybe between : and . mr. ball. and what time would he come back? mrs. roberts. well, he would get home about maybe --something around o'clock. mr. ball. and with the exception of the weekends that he spent away, was he home every night or was he out at night? mrs. roberts. he was always home at night--he never went out. mr. ball. now, on one holiday that occurred on monday--he didn't come in? mrs. roberts. no, he didn't come in that monday. mr. ball. was that the only monday he didn't come in? mrs. roberts. that was the only monday he didn't come in. mr. ball. he paid on monday? mrs. roberts. he paid on monday and that was the only time he didn't pay on monday and he wasn't there. mr. ball. he paid on what day of the week that week? mrs. roberts. tuesday--when he came in home. mr. ball. but the weekend before november d, he was there all weekend, was he? mrs. roberts. yes. mr. ball. now, i also will ask you whether or not you ever heard of a fellow by the name of ruby--did you ever hear of a fellow by the name of jack ruby? mrs. roberts. no--i didn't. mr. ball. had you ever heard his name before he was accused of shooting oswald? mrs. roberts. no. mr. ball. you never even heard his name? mrs. roberts. no. mr. ball. you never even heard his name? mrs. roberts. no--i never heard his name. mr. ball. and had never seen him? mrs. roberts. no, sir. mr. ball. did a police car pass the house there and honked? mrs. roberts. yes. mr. ball. when was that? mrs. roberts. he came in the house. mr. ball. when he came in the house? mrs. roberts. when he came in the house and went to his room, you know how the sidewalk runs? mr. ball. yes. mrs. roberts. right direct in front of that door--there was a police car stopped and honked. i had worked for some policemen and sometimes they come by and tell me something that maybe their wives would want me to know, and i thought it was them, and i just glanced out and saw the number, and i said, "oh, that's not their car," for i knew their car. mr. ball. you mean, it was not the car of the policemen you knew? mrs. roberts. it wasn't the police car i knew, because their number was and it wasn't and i ignored it. mr. ball. and who was in the car? mrs. roberts. i don't know--i didn't pay any attention to it after i noticed it wasn't them--i didn't. mr. ball. where was it parked? mrs. roberts. it was parked in front of the house. mr. ball. at north beckley? mrs. roberts. and then they just eased on--the way it is--it was the third house off of zangs and they just went on around the corner that way. mr. ball. went around what corner? mrs. roberts. went around the corner off of beckley on zangs. mr. ball. going which way--toward town or away from town? mrs. roberts. toward town. dr. goldberg. which way was the car facing? mrs. roberts. it was facing north. dr. goldberg. towards zangs? mrs. roberts. towards zangs--for i was the third house right off of zangs on beckley. mr. ball. did this police car stop directly in front of your house? mrs. roberts. yes--it stopped directly in front of my house and it just "tip-tip" and that's the way officer alexander and charles burnely would do when they stopped, and i went to the door and looked and saw it wasn't their number. mr. ball. where was oswald when this happened? mrs. roberts. in his room. mr. ball. it was after he had come in his room? mrs. roberts. yes. mr. ball. had that police car ever stopped there before? mrs. roberts. i don't know--i don't remember ever seeing it. mr. ball. have you ever seen it since? mrs. roberts. no--i didn't pay that much attention--i just saw it wasn't the police car that i knew and had worked for so, i forgot about it. i seen it at the time, but i don't remember now what it was. mr. ball. did you report the number of the car to anyone? mrs. roberts. i think i did--i'm not sure, because i--at that particular time i remembered it. mr. ball. you remembered the number of the car? mrs. roberts. i think it was-- , it seems to me like it was , but i do know what theirs was--it was and it wasn't their car. mr. ball. it was not ? mrs. roberts. the people i worked for was . mr. ball. did you report that number to anyone, did you report this incident to anyone? mrs. roberts. yes, i told the fbi and the secret service both when they was out there. mr. ball. and did you tell them the number of the car? mrs. roberts. i'm not sure--i believe i did--i'm not sure. i think i did because--there was so much happened then until my brains was in a whirl. mr. ball. on the th of november, special agents will griffin and james kennedy of the federal bureau of investigation interviewed you and you told them that "after oswald had entered his room about p.m. on november , , you looked out the front window and saw police car no. ." mrs. roberts. no. . mr. ball. is that the number? mrs. roberts. yes--i remembered it. i don't know where i got that -- . anyway, i knew it wasn't . mr. ball. and you say that there were two uniformed policemen in the car? mrs. roberts. yes, and it was in a black car. it wasn't an accident squad car at all. mr. ball. were there two uniformed policemen in the car? mrs. roberts. oh, yes. mr. ball. and one of the officers sounded the horn? mrs. roberts. just kind of a "tit-tit"--twice. mr. ball. and then drove on to beckley toward zangs boulevard, is that right? mrs. roberts. yes. i thought there was a number, but i couldn't remember it but i did know the number of their car--i could tell that. i want you to understand that i have been put through the third degree and it's hard to remember. mr. ball. are there any other questions? dr. goldberg. no, that's all. mr. ball. now, mrs. roberts, this deposition will be written up and you can read it if you want to and you can sign it, or you can waive the signature. mrs. roberts. well, you know, i can't see too good how to read. i'm completely blind in my right eye. mr. ball. do you want to waive your signature? and then you won't have to come back down here. mrs. roberts. well, okay. mr. ball. all right, you waive it then? mrs. roberts. yes. do you want me to sign it now? mr. ball. no; we couldn't, because this young lady has to write it up and it will be a couple of weeks before it will be ready. mrs. roberts. well, will you want me to come back or how? mr. ball. well, you can waive your signature and you won't have to come back to do that--do you want to do that? mrs. roberts. okay, it will be all right. mr. ball. all right. the secret service will take you home now. mrs. roberts. all right. mr. ball. thank you for coming. mrs. roberts. all right. testimony of domingo benavides the testimony of domingo benavides was taken at : p.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. david w. belin, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. belin. you want to raise your hand and stand up and be sworn. do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. benavides. i do. mr. belin. will you state your name for our reporter, please? mr. benavides. domingo benavides. mr. belin. how old are you, sir? mr. benavides. i am , april the th. i am now . mr. belin. single or married? mr. benavides. married. mr. belin. family? mr. benavides. two children and one expected sometime this month. mr. belin. where are you from originally? mr. benavides. from dallas. mr. belin. you were born in dallas? mr. benavides. yes, sir. mr. belin. go to school in dallas? mr. benavides. yes, sir. mr. belin. how far did you go through school? mr. benavides. tenth grade. mr. belin. then what did you do when you got out of school? mr. benavides. i just went to work. mr. belin. where did you work first? mr. benavides. merchants delivery. mr. belin. what did you do? mr. benavides. i was helper on a truck and part-time mechanic; mechanic helper. mr. belin. how long did you work for them? mr. benavides. i imagine about years. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. benavides. i went into the navy. mr. belin. what did you do in the navy? mr. benavides. yeoman and seaman. mr. belin. how long were you in the navy? mr. benavides. three years. mr. belin. honorable discharge? mr. benavides. no, sir. mr. belin. you did not have an honorable discharge? mr. benavides. no, sir. mr. belin. what did you do when you got out of the navy? mr. benavides. i returned to work for merchants delivery. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. benavides. well, just from there i jumped around from roofing companies. i started in roofing then and i worked for donald bost, which is town & country roofing co., for on up until about years ago, i guess. then i just started mechanicing. mr. belin. you started to become an automobile mechanic? mr. benavides. yes. mr. belin. for whom did you work then? mr. benavides. i worked in martinez, calif., for donley chevrolet & cadillac co., and then later on i was transferred to their paint and body shop, and then i came back to dallas and i worked for mr. harris. mr. belin. for whom? mr. benavides. mr. harris, at dootch motors. mr. belin. dootch motors? mr. benavides. yes, sir. mr. belin. are you still working for them now? that is, as a mechanic? mr. benavides. yes, sir. mr. belin. how long have you been working for dootch now? mr. benavides. well, off and on about years. during this time i went back to merchants delivery and worked there and then i worked for southern delivery, too. mr. belin. now when was the last time you went back to dootch motors? mr. benavides. it's been a year ago. mr. belin. you have been working for them ever since? mr. benavides. yes, sir. mr. belin. taking you back to november , , anything unusual happen that day? mr. benavides. on the d? mr. belin. d of november ? mr. benavides. this would be embarrassing. was that the day of the assassination of the president? mr. belin. yes. mr. benavides. i was thinking it was the th. well, nothing except it seemed like a pretty nice day. mr. belin. do you remember what day of the week it was? mr. benavides. i don't remember. mr. belin. do you remember the day that the president was assassinated? mr. benavides. no. mr. belin. do you remember that he was assassinated in dallas? mr. benavides. oh, yes; i remember this. mr. belin. that day you had lunch, were you at work that day? mr. benavides. yes, sir. mr. belin. you had lunch? mr. benavides. i had lunch. and then this man had stalled this car in the middle of the street and asked me if i would fix it. something was wrong with the carburetor, or pump that had broken in it, and i went around to the parts house to get the parts for it. mr. belin. where had the man's car stopped in the middle of the street? mr. benavides. well, on patton street. mr. belin. patton and what? mr. benavides. between jefferson and th. mr. belin. a car stopped in the middle of the street between---- mr. benavides. jefferson and tenth. mr. belin. about what time of day was this? mr. benavides. i imagine it was about o'clock. mr. belin. you imagine it was about o'clock? mr. benavides. it was after lunch. i had already eaten. it was after i had lunch and i had eaten around , somewhere around o'clock. mr. belin. what did you do? you were going to get a carburetor part, so what did you do? mr. benavides. i was in a rush and i ran off and forgot the number of the carburetor. mr. belin. you forgot the number of the carburetor? mr. benavides. then i circled back. i left down the alley. mr. belin. which alley is this? mr. benavides. the one directly between th and patton and jefferson street. mr. belin. it runs parallel to th and jefferson and it runs, the alley would run east of patton street? mr. benavides. yes, sir. mr. belin. all right. the alley runs right behind dootch motors there? mr. benavides. yes, sir. mr. belin. what kind of vehicle were you driving? mr. benavides. pickup truck chevrolet. mr. belin. all right, what route did you take? were you headed east or west in the alley? mr. benavides. east. mr. belin. to what? mr. benavides. to denver street. mr. belin. which is the next street over from patton? mr. benavides. yes, sir. mr. belin. first street east of patton, then where? mr. benavides. i turned right, which is east on th. wait. denver would be north, i imagine. i turned from the alley north on denver. mr. belin. all right. mr. benavides. and east on th. mr. belin. then you turned east on---- mr. benavides. the parts house sets on marsalis and th. mr. belin. marsalis and th? mr. benavides. yes; so i got almost up to the parts house and i thought about the number, so i was going to go back and get the number off the carburetor. i turned in a drive and turned around and started back. mr. belin. on what street? mr. benavides. on th street. mr. belin. on east th? mr. benavides. i was going west on th street. mr. belin. all right. mr. benavides. then i got almost up to the corner when i seen the policeman. i first seen the car stop up there. mr. belin. now, you say you got almost to a corner. what corner was that? mr. benavides. at denver and th. mr. belin. you almost got up to denver and th heading west on th street when you saw something? mr. benavides. i saw this police car. mr. belin. you saw a police car? mr. benavides. yes, sir. mr. belin. where was the police car? mr. benavides. it was sitting about or feet from the curb and down about houses from the corner of patton street. mr. belin. all right. was it between patton and denver? mr. benavides. yes, sir. mr. belin. on what side of east th, north or south? mr. benavides. on the south side. mr. belin. what direction was it headed? mr. benavides. it was headed east. mr. belin. what did you see then? mr. benavides. i then pulled on up and i seen this officer standing by the door. the door was open to the car, and i was pretty close to him, and i seen oswald, or the man that shot him, standing on the other side of the car. mr. belin. all right. did you see the officer as he was getting out of the car? mr. benavides. no; i seen as he was, well, he had his hand on the door and kind of in a hurry to get out, it seemed like. mr. belin. had he already gotten out of the car? mr. benavides. he had already gotten around. mr. belin. where did you see the other man? mr. benavides. the other man was standing to the right side of the car, riders side of the car, and was standing right in front of the windshield on the right front fender. and then i heard the shot. actually i wasn't looking for anything like that, so i heard the shot, and i just turned into the curb. looked around to miss a car, i think. and then i pulled up to the curb, hitting the curb, and i ducked down, and then i heard two more shots. mr. belin. how many shots did you hear all told? mr. benavides. i heard three shots. mr. belin. you heard three shots? mr. benavides. yes, sir. mr. belin. where were you when your vehicle stopped? mr. benavides. about foot, just directly across the street and maybe a car length away from the police car. mr. belin. would you have been a car length to the east or a car length to the west of the police car? mr. benavides. east of the front side of it. mr. belin. so your vehicle wouldn't have quite gotten up to where the police car was? mr. benavides. no; it didn't. mr. belin. how fast were you going when you watched the policeman getting out of his car? mr. benavides. oh, i imagine not maybe miles an hour. i never did pay much attention to it. mr. belin. you say you stopped the car right away? your vehicle, i mean? mr. benavides. yes, sir. i just didn't exactly stop because--i just pulled it into the curb. mr. belin. then you say you heard a shot and you then ducked? mr. benavides. yes. no; i heard the shot before i pulled in. mr. belin. oh, i see. you heard the shot and pulled in and then what? mr. benavides. then i ducked down. mr. belin. then what happened? mr. benavides. then i heard the other two shots and i looked up and the policeman was in, he seemed like he kind of stumbled and fell. mr. belin. did you see the policeman as he fell? mr. benavides. yes, sir. mr. belin. what else did you see? mr. benavides. then i seen the man turn and walk back to the sidewalk and go on the sidewalk and he walked maybe foot and then kind of stalled. he didn't exactly stop. and he threw one shell and must have took five or six more steps and threw the other shell up, and then he kind of stepped up to a pretty good trot going around the corner. mr. belin. you saw the man going around the corner headed in what direction on what street? mr. benavides. on patton street. he was going south. mr. belin. he was going south on patton street? mr. benavides. yes; do you know dootch motors? mr. belin. do i know dootch motors? mr. benavides. yes, sir. mr. belin. was he on the east or the west side of patton as he was going? mr. benavides. on the east side. mr. belin. you saw him going on the east? mr. benavides. yes, sir. mr. belin. how far did you see him go down patton? mr. benavides. just as far as the house would let the view go. in other words, as soon as he went past the house, i couldn't see him any more. mr. belin. now, the first time that you saw him, what was his position? mr. benavides. he was standing, the first time i saw him. the man that shot him? mr. belin. yes. mr. benavides. he was standing like i say, on the center in front of the windshield, right directly on the right front fender of the car. mr. belin. he was not moving when you saw him? mr. benavides. no; he wasn't moving then. mr. belin. all right, after you saw him turn around the corner, what did you do? mr. benavides. after that, i set there for just a few minutes to kind of, i thought he went in back of the house or something. at the time, i thought maybe he might have lived in there and i didn't want to get out and rush right up. he might start shooting again. that is when i got out of the truck and walked over to the policeman, and he was lying there and he had, looked like a big clot of blood coming out of his head, and his eyes were sunk back in his head, and just kind of made me feel real funny. i guess i was really scared. mr. belin. did the policeman say anything? mr. benavides. the policeman, i believe was dead when he hit the ground, because he didn't put his hand out or nothing. mr. belin. where was the policeman as he fell, as you saw him? mr. benavides. i saw him as he was falling. the door was about half way open, and he was right in front of the door, and just about in front of the fender. i would say he was between the door and the front headlight, about middleway when he started to fall. mr. belin. did you notice where the gun of the policeman was? mr. benavides. the gun was in his hand and he was partially lying on his gun in his right hand. he was partially lying on his gun and on his hand, too. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. benavides. then i don't know if i opened the car door back further than what it was or not, but anyway, i went in and pulled the radio and i mashed the button and told them that an officer had been shot, and i didn't get an answer, so i said it again, and this guy asked me whereabouts all of a sudden, and i said, on th street. i couldn't remember where it was at at the time. so i looked up and i seen this number and i said east th street. mr. belin. you saw a number on the house then? mr. benavides. yes. mr. belin. all right. mr. benavides. then he started to--then i don't know what he said; but i put the radio back. i mean, the microphone back up, and this other guy was standing there, so i got up out of the car, and i don't know, i wasn't sure if he heard me, and the other guy sat down in the car. mr. belin. there was another passerby that stopped? mr. benavides. yes, sir. mr. belin. who was he, do you know? mr. benavides. i couldn't tell you. i don't know who he was. mr. belin. was he driving a car or walking? mr. benavides. i don't know. he was just standing there whenever i looked up. he was standing at the door of the car, and i don't know what he said to the officer or the phone, but the officer told him to keep the line clear, or something, and stay off the phone, or something like that. that he already knew about it. so then i turned and walked off. i never did assist him after that at all. mr. belin. then what did you do? mr. benavides. at the time i walked out, i guess i was scared, so i started across the street--alley between the two houses to my mother's house, and i got in the yard and i said i'd better go back, or just caught myself until i got over there, i guess, so i went back around there. mr. belin. when you went back, what did you do? first of all, was there anything up to that time that you saw there or that you did that you haven't related here that you can think of right now? mr. benavides. well. i started--i seen him throw the shells and i started to stop and pick them up, and i thought i'd better not so when i came back, after i had gotten back, i picked up the shells. mr. belin. all right. now, you said you saw the man with the gun throw the shells? mr. benavides. yes, sir. mr. belin. well, did you see the man empty his gun? mr. benavides. that is what he was doing. he took one out and threw it. mr. belin. do you remember in which hand he was holding his gun? mr. benavides. no; i sure don't. mr. belin. do you remember if he was trying to put anything in the gun also? mr. benavides. yes. as he turned the corner he was putting another shell in his gun. mr. belin. you saw him? mr. benavides. i mean, he was acting like. i didn't see him actually put a shell in his gun, but he acted like he was trying to reload it. maybe he was trying to take out another shell, but he could have been reloading it or something. mr. belin. let me ask you now, i would like to have you relate again the action of the man with the gun as you saw him now. mr. benavides. as i saw him, i really--i mean really got a good view of the man after the bullets were fired, he had just turned. he was just turning away. in other words, he was pointing toward the officer, and he had just turned away to his left, and then he started. there was a big tree, and it seemed like he started back going to the curb of the street and into the sidewalk, and then he turned and went down the sidewalk to, well, until he got in front of the corner house, and then he turned to the left there and went on down patton street. mr. belin. when he got in front of the corner, when you say he turned to his left, did he cut across the yard of the house, or did he go clear to the corner and turn off? mr. benavides. there is a big bush and he catty-cornered across the yard. mr. belin. he kitty-cornered across the yard? mr. benavides. yes. in other words, he didn't go all the way on the sidewalk. he just cut across the yard. mr. belin. where was he when you saw him throwing shells? had he already started across the yard? mr. benavides. no, sir. he had just got back to the sidewalk when he threw the first one and when he threw the second one, he had already cut back into the yard. he just sort of cut across. mr. belin. now you saw him throw two shells? mr. benavides. yes, sir. mr. belin. you saw where he threw the shells? mr. benavides. yes, sir. mr. belin. did you later go back in that area and try and find the shells? mr. benavides. yes. well, right after that i went back and i knew exactly where they was at, and i went over and picked up one in my hand, not thinking and i dropped it, that maybe they want fingerprints off it, so i took out an empty pack of cigarettes i had and picked them up with a little stick and put them in this cigarette package; a chrome looking shell. mr. belin. a chrome looking shell? mr. benavides. yes, sir. mr. belin. about how long did it take you to locate the shells once you started looking for them? mr. benavides. just a minute. i mean not very long at all. just walked directly to them. mr. belin. you saw where he had thrown them? mr. benavides. one of them went down inside of a bush, and the other one was by the bush. mr. belin. did you see him after he turned the corner of the house? mr. benavides. no, sir. mr. belin. do you know whether or not he threw any--you said you heard three shots. do you know whether or not he threw other shells there? mr. benavides. no, sir. mr. belin. did you look at all there? mr. benavides. no; i didn't bother to look there. mr. belin. did you see him when he cut across the yard? did he go between the bushes to get to the sidewalk on patton street, or do you know? mr. benavides. between the house and the bush; yes, sir. he had to cut across the yard, because there was a big bush on the corner there. mr. belin. anything else you can think of about the man after you saw him? what was he wearing? what did he look like? mr. benavides. well, he was kind of, well, just about your size. mr. belin. about my size? i am standing up. mr. benavides. you are about ' "? mr. belin. i am between ' " and ' ". closer to ' ", i believe. mr. benavides. i would say he was about your size, and he had a light-beige jacket, and was lightweight. mr. belin. did it have buttons or a zipper, or do you remember? mr. benavides. it seemed like it was a zipper-type jacket. mr. belin. what color was the trousers? mr. benavides. they were dark. mr. belin. do you remember what kind of shirt he had on? mr. benavides. it was dark in color, but i don't remember exactly what color. mr. belin. was he average weight, slender, or heavy? mr. benavides. i would say he was average weight. mr. belin. what color hair did he have? mr. benavides. oh, dark. i mean not dark. mr. belin. black hair? mr. benavides. no. not black or brown, just kind of a---- mr. belin. my color hair? mr. benavides. yes. mr. belin. you say he is my size, my weight, and my color hair? mr. benavides. he kind of looks like--well, his hair was a little bit curlier. mr. belin. anything else about him that looked like me. mr. benavides. no, that is all. mr. belin. what about his skin? was he fair complexioned or dark complexioned? mr. benavides. he wasn't dark. mr. belin. average complexion? mr. benavides. no; a little bit darker than average. mr. belin. my complexion? mr. benavides. i wouldn't say that any more. i would say he is about your complexion, sir. of course he looked, his skin looked a little bit ruddier than mine. mr. belin. his skin looked ruddier than mine? i might say for the record, that i was not in dallas on november , . mr. benavides. no, just your size. mr. belin. did he look like me? mr. benavides. no; your face, not your face, but just your size. mr. belin. okay, well, i thank you. i was flying from st. louis to des moines, iowa, at about this time. is there anything else? mr. benavides. i remember the back of his head seemed like his hairline was sort of--looked like his hairline sort of went square instead of tapered off, and he looked like he needed a haircut for about weeks, but his hair didn't taper off, it kind of went down and squared off and made his head look flat in back. mr. belin. when you put these two shells that you found in this cigarette package, what did you do with them? mr. benavides. i gave them to an officer. mr. belin. that came out to the scene shortly after? mr. benavides. yes, sir. mr. belin. do you remember the name of the officer? mr. benavides. no, sir; i didn't even ask him. i just told him that this was the shells that he had fired, and i handed them to him. seemed like he was a young guy, maybe . mr. belin. how old would you say the man that you saw with gun was? mr. benavides. i figured he was around . mr. belin. when the officers came out there, did you tell them what you had seen? mr. benavides. no, sir. mr. belin. what did you do? mr. benavides. i left right after. i give the shells to the officer. i turned around and went back and we returned to work. mr. belin. then what happened? did the officers ever get in touch with you? mr. benavides. later on that evening, about o'clock, there was two officers came by and asked for me, mr. callaway asked me--i had told them that i had seen the officer, and the reporters were there and i was trying to hide from the reporters because they will just bother you all the time. then i found out that they thought this was the guy that killed the president. at the time i didn't know the president was dead or he had been shot. so i was just trying to hide from the reporters and everything, and these two officers came around and asked me if i'd seen him, and i told him yes, and told them what i had seen, and they asked me if i could identify him, and i said i don't think i could. at this time i was sure, i wasn't sure that i could or not. i wasn't going to say i could identify and go down and couldn't have. mr. belin. did he ever take you to the police station and ask you if you could identify him? mr. benavides. no; they didn't. mr. belin. you used the name oswald. how did you know this man was oswald? mr. benavides. from the pictures i had seen. it looked like a guy, resembled the guy. that was the reason i figured it was oswald. mr. belin. were they newspaper pictures or television pictures, or both, or neither? mr. benavides. well, television pictures and newspaper pictures. the thing lasted about a month, i believe, it seemed like. mr. belin. pardon. mr. benavides. i showed--i believe they showed pictures of him every day for a long time there. mr. belin. did you talk to anyone at all there that witnessed what was going on? mr. benavides. no; sure didn't. there was people that asked me what happened, came up in the crowd there and asked me what happened, and i said just the policeman got shot. mr. belin. you talked to ted callaway, did you? mr. benavides. no; afterward. you know, i told your--i told him, he asked me when we went, when ted callaway got around there, he opened the car door and picked up the phone and called in and told them there was an officer that had been killed. but the officer on the other side of the radio told him to hang up the phone to keep the lines clear, or something of that sort. then he jumped out and ran around and he asked me did i see what happened, and i said yes. and he said let's chase him, and i said no. mr. belin. why did you say "no"? mr. benavides. well, he was reaching down and getting the gun out of the policeman's hand, and i didn't think he should bother to go like that. so he then turned around and went to the cab that was sitting on the corner. mr. belin. this cab? mr. benavides. yes. there was a cab sitting--oh, there isn't a sidewalk on patton street. i mean there is sidewalks, but not a curb, and this cab had pulled in there by the stop sign. mr. belin. which way was the cab headed on patton street? mr. benavides. it was headed north on patton street. mr. belin. was it on the south side of th or the north side of th when it was parked there? mr. benavides. it would be on the south side of th. mr. belin. was it on the east side of patton or the west? mr. benavides. it would be on the east side of patton. mr. belin. how close to the sidewalk on east th would the front part of the cab have been? mr. benavides. the front part of the cab was, i would say, maybe or feet from the corner. mr. belin. from the corner? mr. benavides. yes. mr. belin. all right. mr. benavides. he was sort of, if it had been a curb there, he would be up on the curb. mr. belin. all right. mr. benavides. and so ted then got in the taxicab and the taxicab came to a halt and he asked me which way he went. i told him he went down patton street toward the office, and come to find out later ted had already seen him go by there. mr. belin. did ted tell you later he had seen him go by? mr. benavides. yes; then we had a colored porter that said he had seen him go by. mr. belin. would this be sam guinyard? mr. benavides. yes. mr. belin. did ted say whether or not he had gone down to the police station to try to identify the man? mr. benavides. after that--after i left that evening, i took off kind of early because i was so shookup that i couldn't work, and so when i say early, i usually work to or or o'clock, at night. so i'd taken off early and the next day the kid told me that he went down there. i think it was the next day, or the day after. well, it was the next day he told me that they went down and identified him as the guy that came by the carlot. mr. belin. ted told you the next day at work that he had gone down and identified him? mr. benavides. yes; i don't know if ted told me, but somebody told me. mr. belin. ted worked at dootch motors at the same time? mr. benavides. yes, sir. mr. belin. what does he do there? mr. benavides. general manager. mr. belin. used-car place? mr. benavides. yes, sir. mr. belin. i am going to go down and get some clothing and see if you can identify it and i will be back in minute. mr. benavides. okay. mr. belin. i am handing you a jacket which has been marked as "commission's exhibit ," and ask you to state whether this bears any similarity to the jacket you saw this man with the gun wearing? mr. benavides. i would say this looks just like it. looks like he had laundried it, but it looks like it was a newer coat than that. mr. belin. i am handing you what has been marked "commission's exhibit ," and see if this looks anything like the shirt that he had on? mr. benavides. i think the shirt looked darker than that. mr. belin. the shirt was darker? mr. benavides. i couldn't tell at the time because he had the jacket on there. that was a waist-type jacket, wasn't it? mr. belin. yes; anything else you can think of. mr. benavides. not offhand, except later on, i don't know if i seen it on television but i believe i seen it on television where they was arresting him, the policeman from the theater. but it didn't seem like he had a jacket on there. mr. belin. when he was being arrested you say he didn't have a jacket on? now at the time you saw him, did he have a jacket on? mr. benavides. he had a jacket on and it looked like that jacket there. mr. belin. anything else? mr. benavides. no; i guess that is all i can think of right now. i think there was another car that was in front of me, a red ford, i believe. i didn't know the man, but i guess he was about or , and he pulled over. i didn't never see him get out of his car, but when he heard the scare, i guess he was about six cars from them, and he pulled over, and i don't know if he came back there or not. mr. belin. anything else? mr. benavides. that would be all. i think if anybody had seen anything really closeup, that he must have fired just as they got past him, and they must have seen him standing there, because he was right directly in front of me. and whenever you see a squad car parked like that, you think something is wrong. at least that is what comes to my mind. mr. belin. anything else? mr. benavides. that is all i can think of right now that i can remember. mr. belin. pardon? mr. benavides. that is all i can think of right now that i can remember. mr. belin. you and i never met before today, did we, except that one day when we were around to see ted callaway and he introduced you at dootch motors and we chatted for or minutes there? mr. benavides. yes; you and two other men. mr. belin. today when we met, you came up here and what is the facts as to whether i asked you before the court reporter was able to get here to just relate to me what happened, or did i start questioning you or try to tell you things as i saw them? mr. benavides. so; you just asked me what happened and i described to you what happened. mr. belin. is there anything you said before the court reporter got here that is different in anyway that you said after the court reporter started taking your testimony? mr. benavides. maybe now only in the change of time, or i imagine i added a little bit since she was here. mr. belin. is there anything that would be at variance with what you told me before the court reporter got here? mr. benavides. well, i don't understand. mr. belin. what i mean is, is there anything that you said before the court reporter got here that you haven't included after the court reporter got here? mr. benavides. no. mr. belin. anything you have said in front of the court reporter that has been different insofar as being a fact which is opposite or different in anyway from what you told me before? mr. benavides. different in wording but---- mr. belin. but are the facts different? mr. benavides. no; i don't believe the facts are different. mr. belin. now you have a right, if you want to, to come back and read the deposition and sign it, or you can just rely on the court reporter's accuracy and waive the signing of it. do you want to waive it or not? mr. benavides. i would like to read it. mr. belin. all right. mr. benavides. maybe i could add something i didn't add. mr. belin. all right, i will ask the court reporter to try and get in touch with you. mr. benavides. june drive. mr. belin. she can reach you at dootch motors? mr. benavides. dootch motors. mr. belin. what is the address? mr. benavides. east jefferson. mr. belin. you did get notice of the taking of this deposition here today? mr. benavides. yes, sir. mr. belin. you are here voluntarily appearing in front of the commission? mr. benavides. yes, sir. mr. belin. well, we surely appreciate all of the cooperation you have shown here, sir, and if there is anything else that you think is important, we would appreciate your getting in touch with us. mr. benavides. that is the reason i wanted to read this, in case i might have left out something. mr. belin. would you please thank whoever is the general manager at dootch motors for letting you come here and appear before us? mr. benavides. that is mr. harris. mr. belin. thank you very much. testimony of mrs. charlie virginia davis the testimony of mrs. charlie virginia davis was taken at a.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney. post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. david w. belin, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. belin. mrs. davis, would you stand and raise your right hand and be sworn, please? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mrs. davis. i do. mr. belin. would you please state your name for the court reporter? mrs. davis. mrs. charlie virginia davis. mr. belin. you are known as mrs. charles davis? mrs. davis. yes, sir. mr. belin. your first name is virginia? mrs. davis. yes, sir. mr. belin. where do you live, mrs. davis? mrs. davis. athens. mr. belin. in texas? mrs. davis. yes, sir. mr. belin. how old are you? mrs. davis. sixteen. mr. belin. how long have you lived in athens? mrs. davis. well, about months. it was after the president was shot. mr. belin. do you remember when the president was shot? mrs. davis. on november . mr. belin. about how long after that did you move to athens? mrs. davis. it was about weeks after the president was shot. mr. belin. mrs. davis, how long have you been married? mrs. davis. seven months. mr. belin. any children? mrs. davis. no, sir. mr. belin. the time you moved to athens would have been sometime in december of ? mrs. davis. yes, sir. mr. belin. prior to that time, had you always lived in dallas? mrs. davis. well, after i got married we moved to dallas and we lived there ever since. mr. belin. when you got married, you moved to dallas. before you got married, where did you live? mrs. davis. palestine. mr. belin. is that in texas? mrs. davis. yes. mr. belin. were you raised there? mrs. davis. no, sir; i was raised in athens. mr. belin. you were raised in athens. did you go to school in athens? mrs. davis. no; i went to school in palestine. mr. belin. how far did you get through school? mrs. davis. the ninth grade. mr. belin. have you ever been employed at all? mrs. davis. no. mr. belin. now, mrs. davis, where were you living when you were living in dallas in november of ? mrs. davis. east th street. mr. belin. is that east th? mrs. davis. yes. mr. belin. do you know what cross-street runs at th there? mrs. davis. patton. mr. belin. th and patton? mrs. davis. yes. mr. belin. what kind of house did you live in? was it a brick or frame home? mrs. davis. it was a frame apartment house. mr. belin. pardon? mrs. davis. it was a frame apartment house. mr. belin. a frame apartment house. you and your husband lived in one apartment? mrs. davis. and my sister and her husband lived in another one. mr. belin. there were two apartments there? mrs. davis. on the bottom floor. mr. belin. what is your sister's name? mrs. davis. mrs. barbara jeanette davis. mr. belin. do you know what her husband's name is? mrs. davis. troy lee davis. mr. belin. taking you back to the afternoon of november , do you remember anything out of the ordinary that happened on that date? mrs. davis. well, the boy that was known as lee harvey oswald shot j. d. tippit. mr. belin. well, now, did you see him shoot j. d. tippit? mrs. davis. no; we didn't see. yes; we heard the shot. he had already shot him. mr. belin. you say you heard a shot? mrs. davis. yes, sir. mr. belin. where were you when you heard the shot? mrs. davis. i was over at my sister-in-law's. mr. belin. her apartment? mrs. davis. yes, sir. mr. belin. where in her apartment were you? mrs. davis. i was in the living room. mr. belin. you were in the living room? mrs. davis. yes. we was lying down. mr. belin. you were lying down in the living room on the sofa bed, or what? mrs. davis. it is a bed against the wall and a sofa. mr. belin. who was lying down? mrs. davis. well, jeanette was lying on the bed. i was lying on the couch, and annette and james lee were lying on the other bed. mr. belin. are these other people children of your sister's? mrs. davis. yes, sir. mr. belin. about how old are those children? mrs. davis. james will be and then annette is . mr. belin. now as you were lying down, what did you see or hear? mrs. davis. we just heard a shot. mr. belin. how many shots did you hear? mrs. davis. we heard the first one and then we thought maybe someone had a blowout like a tire or something and we didn't get up to see. then we heard the second shot and that is when we ran to the front door. mr. belin. well, now, does that mean that you heard two shots? mrs. davis. yes, sir. mr. belin. are you sure there were not more than two, or are you sure that you heard two? mrs. davis. we just heard two. mr. belin. then what did you do? mrs. davis. well, mrs. markham was trying to say---- mr. belin. mrs. markham? mrs. davis. yes, sir. mr. belin. do you know what her first name is? mrs. davis. no, sir. i just know her by mrs. markham. mr. belin. had you ever known her before? mrs. davis. no, sir. mr. belin. how did you know it was mrs. markham? mrs. davis. well, it said in the paper that it was mrs. markham, and my sister-in-law said it was mrs. markham. my sister-in-law knows mrs. markham. mr. belin. now you heard the shots. you heard, you say, the second shot and then what did you do? mrs. davis. we was already up. we ran to the door. mr. belin. by we, who do you mean? mrs. davis. jeanette and i. mr. belin. you went to which door? mrs. davis. the front door. mr. belin. that would be the front of the house facing east th street? mrs. davis. yes, sir. mr. belin. what did you do when you got to the door? mrs. davis. mrs. markham was standing at the tree. mr. belin. if we can picture the street intersection, was she standing in the middle of the street or on the sidewalk? mrs. davis. she was on the sidewalk. mr. belin. let me ask you this. your house would be located at the southeast corner of the intersection, is that where it is, or not? mrs. davis. yes. mr. belin. would she be standing on a corner that would be right across th street but on the same side of patton, or across would it be catty-cornered or would it be across th street but on the other side? maybe we can draw it here on a little paper. mrs. davis. i don't remember it too good. mr. belin. now i have drawn on a piece of paper here a street intersection and this is patton and here is east th, which would be your house. do you want to mark here where you think you saw mrs. markham? mrs. davis. well, she was standing on the sidewalk right here. do you want to put an "x" there? mr. belin. please put an "x" there. mrs. davis. (marks "x".) mr. belin. i'm going to call that virginia davis deposition, exhibit . what was mrs. markham saying, or did you hear her say anything? mrs. davis. we heard her say "he shot him. he is dead. call the police." mr. belin. was she saying this in a soft or loud voice? mrs. davis. she was screaming it. mr. belin. did you see anything else as you heard her screaming? mrs. davis. well, we saw oswald. we didn't know it was oswald at the time. we saw that boy cut across the lawn emptying the shells out of the gun. mr. belin. all right. now, you saw a boy. do you know how old he was? mrs. davis. he didn't look like he was over . mr. belin. do you remember what color hair he had? mrs. davis. let's see, the best i recall, he had sort of light brown. mr. belin. light brown hair? mrs. davis. yes. mr. belin. was he tall or short or average height? mrs. davis. he was about average height. mr. belin. fat, thin, or average weight? mrs. davis. slim. mr. belin. pardon? mrs. davis. slim. mr. belin. do you remember what he had on? mrs. davis. he had on a light-brown-tan jacket. mr. belin. do you remember what color his trousers were? mrs. davis. i think they were black. brown jacket and trousers. mr. belin. the trousers were black? mrs. davis. yes. mr. belin. do you remember what kind of shirt he had on? mrs. davis. no, sir; i don't recall that. mr. belin. was the jacket open or closed up? mrs. davis. it was open. mr. belin. but you don't remember what kind of shirt he had on? mrs. davis. no, sir. mr. belin. did he look at you? mrs. davis. no, sir; not that i remember. i don't think so. mr. belin. and where was he when you first saw him? mrs. davis. he was cutting across our yard. mr. belin. in what direction was he walking? mrs. davis. he was walking---- mr. belin. away from patton or towards patton? mrs. davis. towards patton. mr. belin. when you first saw him, had he gotten up to your yard yet or not? mrs. davis. yes; he was cutting over across our yard. mr. belin. he was cutting across your walk that leads up to the front door? mrs. davis. yes, sir. mr. belin. about how far from the main sidewalk on east th was he? mrs. davis. he was about feet. mr. belin. about feet or so? mrs. davis. yes; when i first saw him. mr. belin. then he was cutting across your sidewalk about feet away from the main sidewalk? mrs. davis. yes, sir. mr. belin. then did you see him--how long did you see him? where did you see him go? mrs. davis. we saw him go around the corner of our house. mr. belin. how far did you see him go? mrs. davis. well, when he disappeared around that corner, that is the last we saw of him. mr. belin. did you see him go through any bushes by your house or not? or didn't you see him? mrs. davis. no, sir. mr. belin. you mean you didn't see him? mrs. davis. we saw him when he cut across our yard. mr. belin. where was he when you last saw him? he was--was he still in your yard, or was he on the sidewalk on patton street? mrs. davis. he was still in our yard. mr. belin. then what did you do? mrs. davis. we already called the police. mr. belin. you called the police before you saw him? mrs. davis. when mrs. markham was standing across the street hollering, she told us to call the police, so jeanette and i went in there, and jeanette called the police and we went back and he was cutting across our yard, and we gave him time to go on because we were afraid he might shoot us. mr. belin. did you call the police before or after you saw him cut across your yard? mrs. davis. before. mr. belin. in other words, to your--to the best of your recollection, you heard the shots, you ran outside, you saw mrs. markham--did you see anything else when you saw mrs. markham? mrs. davis. no, sir; we just saw a police car sitting on the side of the road. mr. belin. where was the police car parked? mrs. davis. it was parked between the hedge that marks the apartment house where he lives in and the house next door. mr. belin. was it on your side of east th or the other side of the street? mrs. davis. it was on our side, the same side that we lived on. mr. belin. was it headed as you looked to the police car, towards your right or towards your left? mrs. davis. right. mr. belin. did you see any police officer in a police car when you first saw him? mrs. davis. no, sir. mr. belin. when your sister went to call the police, did you go with her, or did you stay by the front door? mrs. davis. i went with her. mr. belin. what did you hear your sister do? mrs. davis. well, she called the police and told whoever answered the phone that there had been a murder out in front of our house, to come quick. mr. belin. then what did she do? mrs. davis. she hung up and then we went back to the front door and told the two kids to stay indoors. mr. belin. then what did you do? mrs. davis. then we went out in the front yard and right down to the police car and that is when we saw the policeman lying on the street. mr. belin. where was the policeman lying? mrs. davis. he was lying just, well, he was half between the front end of his car and, well, his head was lying toward the front end of it. mr. belin. was he on the driver's side of the front or on the other side? mrs. davis. he was on the driver's side. mr. belin. all right, now, as i understand your testimony, after you made the call, you went out to the front yard, is that it? mrs. davis. yes, sir. mr. belin. you then went out to see the policeman in the street? mrs. davis. yes, sir. mr. belin. when you went out in the front yard, were you in the front yard when the man was going by there? mrs. davis. no, sir; he had already gone when we went outside. mr. belin. he had already gone when you went outside? mrs. davis. yes. mr. belin. i thought you said that when you went outside you went on the sidewalk? mrs. davis. see, all the people had already--see, he was already gone. mr. belin. had he gone by at that time? mrs. davis. by the time we got back from off the phone, he had already gone. he had already disappeared behind the corner of our house. mr. belin. did you see him going in front of your house before you called on the phone? mrs. davis. yes. when we heard the second shot, we ran to the front door, and that is when we saw the boy cutting across the yard. mr. belin. well, let me see if i understand your statement now. you went to the front door after you heard the second shot? mrs. davis. yes, sir. mr. belin. what did you do when you got to the front door? did you open the front door, or not? mrs. davis. no, sir; we just looked through the front door. mr. belin. you looked through the front door? mrs. davis. yes. mr. belin. was there a screen door on it or not? mrs. davis. it was a screen door. mr. belin. were you looking through the screen door, or was the screen door partially open, if you remember. mrs. davis. it was closed. we was looking through it. mr. belin. you were looking through the screen door? mrs. davis. yes. mr. belin. were you in front of your sister-in-law, or was she in front of you? mrs. davis. she was in front of me. mr. belin. you were both looking through the screen door? mrs. davis. yes, sir. mr. belin. what did you see when you looked through the screen door? mrs. davis. we saw a boy walking, cutting across our yard. mr. belin. where was he when you first saw him? mrs. davis. he was about feet from the sidewalk. not the one that comes up to our front door, but the other sidewalk. mr. belin. he was about feet from the front sidewalk on east th? mrs. davis. yes. mr. belin. had he come up to your sidewalk yet that comes up from east th to your front door? mrs. davis. yes, he had already. he was about half on the concrete, i think. mr. belin. he was half on that concrete? mrs. davis. yes. mr. belin. then what did you watch this man do? mrs. davis. we watched him unload the shells out of his gun. mr. belin. what hand was he holding this gun in? mrs. davis. in the right. mr. belin. he was holding the gun in his right hand, if you remember? mrs. davis. yes, sir. mr. belin. what was he doing with his left hand? mrs. davis. he was emptying the shells in his left hand. mr. belin. was the gun broken open, so to speak? in other words. i don't know if you have ever seen a capgun. when you want to load the capgun, you have to kind of break it apart on a hinge. was the gun broken apart like that, or was the barrel straight? mrs. davis. it was like the real gun, little one. mr. belin. what do you mean it was just like? mrs. davis. it was just as best as i can remember, it was a little pistol, and he was emptying the shells. where the shell was coming out, he was emptying the shells into his left hand. mr. belin. did you see what he did with the shells when he emptied them into his left hand? mrs. davis. after we, well, he was dropping them on the ground because we found two. mr. belin. you said that you found two? did you see him drop them on the ground or not? mrs. davis. no; we didn't see him. mr. belin. you just saw him emptying shells in his hand? mrs. davis. yes. mr. belin. you didn't actually see what he did with them when he got them in his hand, did you? mrs. davis. no, sir. mr. belin. you are nodding your head no? mrs. davis. no. mr. belin. then what did you see the man do? mrs. davis. well, he just cut across. he disappeared from behind the corner of the house. mr. belin. going toward what street? mrs. davis. well, going toward jefferson street. mr. belin. he was headed on patton in the direction toward jefferson? mrs. davis. yes, sir. mr. belin. did you see him actually get to patton street? mrs. davis. yes; he was already around the corner. mr. belin. you saw him go around the corner of your home? mrs. davis. yes. mr. belin. what did you do or see then? mrs. davis. well, we just went out, because we had already called the police, notified them, and we went out in the yard. mr. belin. you notified the police. let me ask you this. did you notify the police before or after you saw the boy with the gun? mrs. davis. let's see, i think it was before. mr. belin. when you say before, what do you mean? mrs. davis. well, before we saw the boy. mr. belin. before you saw the boy you notified the police? mrs. davis. yes, sir. mr. belin. well, let me try and reconstruct your actions then. you heard the shots? mrs. davis. yes, sir. mr. belin. you ran to the door? mr. belin. what did you see when you got to the door? mrs. davis. well, we just saw, you know, the police car parked down there and we wondered what was going on, so we heard mrs. markham across the street calling. mr. belin. then what did you do? mrs. davis. well, she told us to call the police, well, so went to the house. we was already in the house, and we went to the phone and called the police. mr. belin. then what did you do? mrs. davis. then we went back to the front door. mr. belin. then what did you do? mrs. davis. we saw the boy cutting across the street. mr. belin. then what did you do or see? mrs. davis. after he disappeared around the corner we ran out in the front yard and down to see what had happened. mr. belin. then is that when you saw the policeman? mrs. davis. i saw the policeman lying on the street. mr. belin. all right. did you see or do anything else? did you see anyone else that you know come up to the policeman? mrs. davis. no sir; there was a lot of people around there. mr. belin. do you remember about what time of day this was? mrs. davis. i wouldn't say for sure. but it was about : , between : and . mr. belin. all right, after this, did police come out there? mrs. davis. yes; they was already there. mr. belin. by the time you got out there? mrs. davis. yes, sir. mr. belin. then what did you do? mrs. davis. well, we just stood out there and watched. you know, tried to see how it all happened. but we saw part of it. mr. belin. then what did you do? mrs. davis. we stood out there until after the ambulance had come and picked him up. mr. belin. all right, then what did you do? mrs. davis. and we stood out there and talked to this woman who told us that president kennedy was shot. mr. belin. about what? mrs. davis. this woman had told us that president kennedy was shot. mr. belin. then what did you do? mrs. davis. when the police cars was circling all the blocks, about four or five blocks to see if they could find the boy, and we stayed out there all that time to see if they would locate him. mr. belin. all right, did you tell the police, that you had seen anyone with a gun? mrs. davis. yes, sir; we told them that we saw a boy carrying a gun. mr. belin. then what did you do? mrs. davis. well, that was---- mr. belin. did you ever go down to the police station or identify him? mrs. davis. yes, sir; we had to identify him in the lineup. mr. belin. what day was that? this same day or another day? mrs. davis. same day. mr. belin. about what time of the day was it? mrs. davis. it was probably about : . mr. belin. who went down with you? mrs. davis. well, let's see, my sister-in-law. mr. belin. that would be barbara jeanette davis? mrs. davis. yes, sir; and her husband troy lee and myself. mr. belin. what did you do when you got to the police station? mrs. davis. we stayed there until this detective, some man walked up to us and led us to this dark room. mr. belin. before they led you to the dark room, did he show you any pictures of anyone? mrs. davis. no. mr. belin. had you seen any pictures on television of anyone that might be the man you saw walking with the gun? mrs. davis. no. mr. belin. had you watched television at all? mrs. davis. no; we didn't watch television. mr. belin. had you seen any newspapers that afternoon? mrs. davis. no, sir; we didn't get the newspapers until that following morning. mr. belin. all right, you went with the detective to a dark room? mrs. davis. yes. mr. belin. what did you do when you got to the dark room? mrs. davis. he told us to sit down. mr. belin. all right. mrs. davis. and then these five boys, or men walked up on this platform, and he was no. . mr. belin. you say he was no. . who was no. ? mrs. davis. the boy that shot tippit. mr. belin. you mean the man--did you see him shoot tippit? or you mean the man you saw with the gun? mrs. davis. the man i saw carrying the gun. mr. belin. was he white or a negro man? mrs. davis. he was white. mr. belin. were all the men in the lineup white men or some negroes? mrs. davis. all of them were white. mr. belin. could you describe any other people in the lineup as to whether they might be fat or thin or short or tall? mrs. davis. well, one of them was sort, well, he was tall and slim. and then the other one there, he was sort of chubby and he was short. then this other one, he was about the same height as the other one, the last one i told you about, short and chubby. and the other one was about--medium tall. mr. belin. now you identified someone in that lineup? mrs. davis. yes, sir. mr. belin. did you hear your sister-in-law identify him first, or not? mrs. davis. no, sir; i identified him first. mr. belin. where was your sister when you identified him? mrs. davis. she was sitting right next to me. mr. belin. how did you identify him? did you yell that this is the man i saw? mrs. davis. no; i just leaned over and told the detective it was no. . mr. belin. where was the detective? was he to your right or to your left? mrs. davis. let's see, to my right. mr. belin. where was your sister, to your right or to your left? mrs. davis. right. mr. belin. as she was to your right, so you leaned over to the detective and told the detective it was no. ? mrs. davis. yes, sir. mr. belin. anything else that you can think of that happened that day? mrs. davis. no, sir. mr. belin. later did you ever see a picture of lee harvey oswald on television? mrs. davis. yes, sir. mr. belin. when did you first see it on television? mrs. davis. when they was bringing him out of the jail out here. mr. belin. when? mrs. davis. when they were bringing him out of the jail. mr. belin. you mean sunday when he got shot? mrs. davis. yes. mr. belin. did this look, could you tell whether this was the same man you saw running with the gun? mrs. davis. i wouldn't say for sure. mr. belin. you mean from seeing his picture on television? mrs. davis. yes, sir. mr. belin. what about the man you identified as no. ? would you say for sure that he was the man you saw running with the gun? mrs. davis. i would say that was him for sure. mr. belin. what you are saying is that you couldn't necessarily tell from the television picture? mrs. davis. no, sir. our television was blurred anyway, so we couldn't hardly tell. mr. belin. do you remember that you signed a statement when you were down at the dallas police department at all, or not? mrs. davis. yes, sir. mr. belin. i'm going to hand you what has been marked as virginia davis deposition, exhibit , and ask you to state if this is your signature on here? mrs. davis. yes, sir. mr. belin. would you read the contents of your deposition exhibit , and i will ask you if there is anything there that is inaccurate. (reads statement.) mr. belin. you have read exhibit ? mrs. davis. yes, sir. mr. belin. is there anything in that statement that is inaccurate in any way? mrs. davis. no, sir. mr. belin. is that what you told the police of dallas on november , ? mrs. davis. that's right. mr. belin. now on this statement it says that you heard a shot and then another shot and ran to the side door at patton street. was that the side door or front door? mrs. davis. it was the front door. mr. belin. then it says, "i saw the boy cutting across our yard and he was unloading his gun." is that correct? mrs. davis. that's right. mr. belin. then it says, "we walked outside and a woman was hollering, 'he's dead, he's dead, he's shot.'" is that right? mrs. davis. that's right. mr. belin. then it says, "this woman told jeanette to call the police and she did." is that what happened? mrs. davis. yes. mr. belin. it says, "i saw the officer that had been shot lying on th street after jeanette had called the police." is that right? mrs. davis. that's right. mr. belin. now it says, "jeanette found a empty shell that the man had unloaded and gave it to the police." did you see jeanette find that shell? mrs. davis. yes. i was right along behind her. mr. belin. where did she find it? mrs. davis. she found it beside, well, the apartment was facing this way. mr. belin. facing patton street? mrs. davis. yes, sir. and we was already outside. we thought maybe we could find some evidence for the police. so we went through the hedge, and by my front door of the apartment where we live, right there in the grass where he dropped them. mr. belin. had the police started to search around your house yet when they found it? mrs. davis. yes; they already started to search. mr. belin. would this have been to the side of the house or the corner of the house that you found, that jeanette found that shell? mrs. davis. it was by the side. mr. belin. this would have been by the side of the house that is next to patton street? mrs. davis. yes, sir. mr. belin. about how far from the front of the house would it be? mrs. davis. it was about feet. mr. belin. about feet. you saw jeanette find the shell? you saw her pick it up from the ground? mrs. davis. yes. mr. belin. what color was it, do you remember? mrs. davis. the best i can recall, it was gray, one of these---- mr. belin. the best you can recall, it was gray? mrs. davis. yes. mr. belin. what did jeanette do with it? mrs. davis. she gave it to some detective. mr. belin. did you see her find any other shells? mrs. davis. i found one after jeanette, after all the police had gone. mr. belin. when did you find yours? mrs. davis. it was about minutes after all the police had gone. mr. belin. was that before or after you went down to the police station? mrs. davis. it was before. mr. belin. about when before? mrs. davis. well, i would say it was about : , or . mr. belin. mrs. davis, when did you say you found this other shell? mrs. davis. it was about . mr. belin. did you see or know of anyone else finding any other shell? mrs. davis. no, sir; not that i remember. mr. belin. do you remember what you did with your shell when you found it? mrs. davis. well, before i picked it up, this boy told me that was walking along with us helping us find, see if we could find anything for evidence, he told me the police would get me if i picked it up by my fingers, and take fingerprints, and i got scared and ran to the house and got a kleenex tissue and brought back outside and wrapped the shell in. mr. belin. what did you do with it when you wrapped the shell up? mrs. davis. jeanette took it and put it in her apartment up on the mantle-board. mr. belin. then what? mrs. davis. then about : the same day the police called and wanted us to come down and identify him in the lineup. mr. belin. then what did you do with the shell? mrs. davis. i gave it to the police. mr. belin. did you give it to him at your house or down at the police station? mrs. davis. they come and picked us up. mr. belin. you gave it to the officer that came to pick you up? mrs. davis. yes, sir. mr. belin. do you remember what his name was, or not? mrs. davis. no, sir. mr. belin. now in your statement, virginia davis deposition exhibit , now you state that, "jeanette found an empty shell that the man had unloaded and gave it to the police. after the police had left i found a empty shell in our yard." is this the same shell you gave to detective dhority? does the name detective dhority sound familiar to you now, or don't you remember? mrs. davis. i never did hear the detective called. mr. belin. pardon? mrs. davis. i didn't hear the detective's name called. mr. belin. you say, "the man that was unloading the gun was the same man that i saw tonight as no. man in a lineup." is that right? mrs. davis. yes. mr. belin. now, mrs. davis, on this statement, virginia davis deposition exhibit , it states that "we heard a shot and then another shot and ran to side door at patton street." you say that should have been the front door? mrs. davis. that was supposed to be the front door. mr. belin. you say, "i saw the boy cutting across our yard and he was unloading his gun. we walked outside and a woman was hollering, 'he's dead, he's, he's shot'." "this woman told jeanette to call the police and she did." now according to this statement, you saw the man cutting across your yard before you called the police? mrs. davis. no, sir. mr. belin. now this statement is wrong, is that correct? mrs. davis. that's right. mr. belin. it is your testimony now, as i understand it, that you went back in the house and you called the police, and then you went back outside the house and saw the boy cutting across the yard? mrs. davis. that's right. mr. belin. that is your statement now? mrs. davis. yes. mr. belin. now i hand you what is deposition exhibit , and ask you to state if your signature appears on deposition exhibit ? mrs. davis. that's right. mr. belin. this appears to be an affidavit dated december , , and i would like you to read the statement if you would. mrs. davis. (reads statement.) mr. belin. you have now had an opportunity to read over virginia davis deposition exhibit , is that correct? mrs. davis. that's right. mr. belin. is there anything on that statement that is not accurate? mrs. davis. as i recall, this is all right on that statement. mr. belin. pardon? mrs. davis. i recall that is all right on that statement. mr. belin. is there anything on that statement that is not accurate, to the best of your knowledge? mrs. davis. no. mr. belin. you are nodding your head no? mrs. davis. not that i recall. mr. belin. now, in this statement it says that you and your sister-in-law were lying on the bed with the two children when you heard a loud bang, and immediately following the first report there was another loud bang and you jumped up and ran to the front door? is that correct? mrs. davis. that's right. mr. belin. then it says, "when we got to the door and went out on the porch, i saw a man who i later that day identified at the dallas police department." is that correct? mrs. davis. that's right. mr. belin. now, according to this statement, you saw the man when you first got to the door and went out on the porch? now, did you see him then, or did you see him---- mrs. davis. we saw him cut across after he had shot the policeman. we saw him cut across our yard, and that is the last we saw of him. mr. belin. well, now, you actually didn't see him shoot the policeman, did you? mrs. davis. no, sir. mr. belin. you saw----just saw the man with the gun? mrs. davis. i just saw the man with the gun cutting across the yard. mr. belin. after you heard some shots? mrs. davis. after i heard the two shots. mr. belin. now, about how soon after you heard the two shots did you get to the door? mrs. davis. well, we didn't even put on our shoes. we just run to the front door. mr. belin. was it a matter of seconds or a matter of minutes? mrs. davis. a matter of seconds. mr. belin. when you got there, you opened the door, and what did you see? mrs. davis. we saw this boy or man cut across the yard. mr. belin. all right, and he had a revolver in his hand? mrs. davis. that is right. mr. belin. in his right hand or left hand? mrs. davis. in his right. mr. belin. this statement goes on to say that "the man had a revolver in his left hand and was shaking the shells out of it into his right hand." is that right or wrong? mrs. davis. wrong. mr. belin. it was the other way around? mrs. davis. it was the other way around. mr. belin. you got to the door and you opened the door, and what did you see now? mrs. davis. we saw this boy cut across our yard unloading the shells out of his gun. mr. belin. then what did you do? mrs. davis. mrs. markham, this woman, was standing across the street hollering to us to call the police. so we went back in there and called the police. mr. belin. all right. now, this statement says, goes on to say, "this man was coming across the yard and was almost to the walk which leads directly to the porch and is in a direct line with the front door." is that where the man was when you first saw him? mrs. davis. that's right. mr. belin. "the man had a revolver in his left hand and was shaking the shells out of it into his right hand." mrs. davis. it was the other way, sir. mr. belin. but you say "the man had a revolver in his left hand and was shaking the shells out of it into his right hand. as the man passed directly in front of us, he looked up for a second or so and then continued on across the yard to patton street in a normal walk." was he walking or running when you saw him? mrs. davis. he was walking. mr. belin. did he look up at you? mrs. davis. no. mr. davis. pardon? mrs. davis. no, sir; not that i remember. mr. belin. all right, you just remember kind of seeing him from a side view? mrs. davis. yes, sir. mr. belin. "at about this time, a woman directly across the intersection from our house yelled out, 'he's dead, he's dead, he shot him.'" mrs. davis. that's right. mr. belin. "the man glanced up at the woman and kept on walking." did you see the man glance up at mrs. markham when she was yelling? mrs. davis. yes; we saw when he looked over at mrs. markham. mr. belin. did you see mrs. markham do anything when he looked at her? mrs. davis. no; she was over there just hollering and screaming. mr. belin. did you see her raise her hand to her face in any way? mrs. davis. yes, sir. she raised both her hands to her face. mr. belin. you saw her do that? mrs. davis. yes. mr. belin. did you see her do anything else? mrs. davis. no. mr. belin. you say, "he walked around the corner of the house that faces patton street and out of sight." is that right? mrs. davis. that's right. mr. belin. "barbara davis and i returned to the house where she called the police." is that right? mrs. davis. that's right. mr. belin. according to the statement then, it says that your sister barbara jeanette called the police after you saw the man, is that right? mrs. davis. that's right. mr. belin. "after she called the police, we went back out on the porch but by then the man we had seen with the gun was no longer in sight." is that right? mrs. davis. that's right. mr. belin. then it says, "when the police arrived we searched the area on the side of the house that faces patton street, and barbara found a gunshell that had been fired." it that right? mrs. davis. that's right. mr. belin. "after the police left we again searched the area and i again found a gunshell that had been fired. i later turned this shell over to the dallas police department." is that right? mrs. davis. yes, sir. mr. belin. then it says, "i have been given an opportunity to make additions and corrections on this statement, and it is true to the best of my knowledge and belief." did they give you an opportunity to make additions and corrections on the statement? mrs. davis. no. mr. belin. they did not? mrs. davis. no. mr. belin. did they read the statement back to you? mrs. davis. not that i remember. mr. belin. they may have but you don't remember. mrs. davis. may have but i don't remember. mr. belin. now, mrs. davis, you and i never talked about this matter until the court reporter started taking your testimony, have we? mrs. davis. no, sir. mr. belin. i never met you before, is that correct? mrs. davis. no, sir. mr. belin. have you ever talked with any person in connection with the president's commission before we started taking your testimony here? mrs. davis. no, sir. mr. belin. i want to be certain that we get this time sequence correct as to when you saw the man with the gun and when the police were called, so i am just going to ask you to sit for about seconds and just think as to just what did happen, and then just tell the court reporter in your own words just what did happen there. (three minutes of silence.) mr. belin. now, mrs. davis, you may not be able to remember just what exactly the time sequence was. you have been sitting here about minutes, and if you don't remember what the time sequence was, why i would like to have you so state. but if you do remember--or do you want more time to think about it? mrs. davis. well, the best i can remember, it was before that we saw the boy cut across the yard that we called the police, the best that i can remember. mr. belin. in other words, it is your testimony, as i understand it now, that you heard the shot, and then what did you do? mrs. davis. we heard the second shot and we ran to the front door. mr. belin. what did you see? mrs. davis. we saw this boy cut across the yard, and we had seen this woman was coming home from work, she had on a uniform, that was mrs. markham--we didn't know it was at the time, but she saw all that happen. mr. belin. what did you do when you got to the door? mrs. davis. we saw the boy cut across our yard. mr. belin. at the time you got to the door, did you also see mrs. markham? mrs. davis. yes, sir. mr. belin. did you see both at approximately the same time? i will ask you whom did you see first, mrs. markham, or the boy cutting across the yard? mrs. davis. the boy. mr. belin. you saw the boy first? mrs. davis. that is who we saw first. mr. belin. then you saw mrs. markham second? mrs. davis. yes, sir. mr. belin. did the boy say anything? mr. belin. no, sir. mr. belin. did mrs. markham say anything? mrs. davis. well, when she got across the other street, th, she hollered, "he's dead, he's dead, he shot him." mr. belin. then what did she say? mrs. davis. she was screaming. i don't know. mr. belin. then what did you do? mrs. davis. well, we called the police. notified them. mr. belin. so you called the police after you saw the boy? mrs. davis. after we saw the boy. mr. belin. and mrs. markham? mrs. davis. yes. mr. belin. you are nodding your head yes. is that your testimony, to the best of your recollection? mrs. davis. that is my testimony. mr. belin. i want to ask you again, did you call the police before or after you saw the boy? mrs. davis. it was after. mr. belin. it was after? mrs. davis. yes, sir; after, the best that i can remember. mr. belin. the best you can remember, you called the police before or after you saw the boy? mrs. davis. yes, sir. mr. belin. before or after? mrs. davis. after. mr. belin. after you saw the boy, you went back in the house and called the police? mrs. davis. yes, sir. mr. belin. is there anything else that you can think of that we haven't talked about that might be helpful in this investigation? mrs. davis. no. mr. belin. did you see any ambulance come up to where officer tippit was? mrs. davis. yes; i saw the ambulance. mr. belin. you got there before the ambulance, did you not? mrs. davis. yes; we got there before. mr. belin. did the ambulance get there first or the police get there first? mrs. davis. the ambulance got there first. mr. belin. did you see anyone making any calls over tippit's radio? mrs. davis. no, sir. mr. belin. when you got to tippit's car, did you take a look at that police car? mrs. davis. we didn't touch it. mr. belin. did you look at it? did you notice whether its windows were rolled up or rolled down? mrs. davis. the one on his side was rolled down. mr. belin. what about the one on the passenger side of the front seat, did you notice that? mrs. davis. rolled up. mr. belin. was that rolled up? mrs. davis. yes, sir. mr. belin. when you got there? mrs. davis. yes. mr. belin. you are nodding your head yes. mrs. davis. yes. mr. belin. now the front window has kind of a little window in it. do you know that little tiny part of the front window that opens and closes? mrs. davis. yes, sir. mr. belin. do you remember whether that one on the front seat by the right side of the front seat was open or not? mrs. davis. no, sir. mr. belin. it was not open? or you don't---- mrs. davis. i don't remember. mr. belin. did you hear anyone make any statements that they had seen anything other than mrs. markham? mrs. davis. no, sir. mr. belin. did you see a taxicab parked anywhere in the vicinity? mrs. davis. no. mr. belin. you are nodding your head no. mrs. davis. no. mr. belin. anything else you can think of? mrs. davis. no, sir; i think i have told it all. mr. belin. all right, mrs. davis, we want to thank you very much for taking the time and the effort to come here. i know that this whole episode has taken time on your part, and we certainly appreciate your cooperation with the president's commission. transcriber's notes: punctuation and spelling were made consistent when a predominant preference was found in this book; otherwise they were not changed. misspellings in quoted evidence not changed; misspellings that could be due to mispronunciations were not changed. some simple typographical errors were corrected. inconsistent hyphenation of compound words retained. ambiguous end-of-line hyphens retained. occasional uses of "mr." for "mrs." and of "mrs." for "mr." corrected. dubious repeated words, (e.g., "what took place by way of of conversation?") retained. several unbalanced quotation marks not remedied. occasional periods that should be question marks not changed. occasional periods that should be commas, and commas that should be periods, were changed only when they clearly had been misprinted (at the end of a paragraph or following a speaker's name in small-caps at the beginning of a line). some commas and semi-colons were printed so faintly that they appear to be periods or colons: some were found and corrected, but some almost certainly remain. the index and illustrated exhibits volumes of this series may not be available at project gutenberg. text in quotations is not indented unless it was indented in the source. page : "lactated renger solution" should be "lactated ringer's solution". page : "larynzo scope" should be "laryngoscope". page : " : a.m." probably is a misprint. page : "van alstyne" is also printed as "van alystyne"; the first one is correct. page : "an attempt to get and was" may have omitted a word after "get". page : "assume sometime : and : " may have omitted a word after "sometime". page : "suppose to" may be a misprint for "supposed to". page : "out of this man" probably should be "out on this man". page : "window of texas school book" probably missing "the" after "of". page : "sometimes around" probably should be "sometime". www.history-matters.com. investigation of the assassination of president john f. kennedy hearings before the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy pursuant to executive order , an executive order creating a commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of the late president john f. kennedy and the subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and s.j. res. , th congress, a concurrent resolution conferring upon the commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas _volume_ v united states government printing office washington, d.c. u.s. government printing office, washington: for sale in complete sets by the superintendent of documents, u.s. government printing office washington, d.c., president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy chief justice earl warren, _chairman_ senator richard b. russell senator john sherman cooper representative hale boggs representative gerald r. ford mr. allen w. dulles mr. john j. mccloy j. lee rankin, _general counsel_ _assistant counsel_ francis w. h. adams joseph a. ball david w. belin william t. coleman, jr. melvin aron eisenberg burt w. griffin leon d. hubert, jr. albert e. jenner, jr. wesley j. liebeler norman redlich w. david slawson arlen specter samuel a. stern howard p. willens[a] [a] mr. willens also acted as liaison between the commission and the department of justice. _staff members_ phillip barson edward a. conroy john hart ely alfred goldberg murray j. laulicht arthur marmor richard m. mosk john j. o'brien stuart pollak alfredda scobey charles n. shaffer, jr. biographical information on the commissioners and the staff can be found in the commission's _report_. preface the testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume v: alan h. belmont, assistant to the director of the federal bureau of investigation; jack revill and v. j. brian of the dallas police, who testified concerning conversations revill had with james patrick hosty, jr., a special agent of the fbi; robert a. frazier, a firearms expert with the fbi; drs. alfred olivier, arthur dziemian, and frederick w. light, jr., wound ballistics experts with the u.s. army laboratories at edgewood arsenal, md.; j. edgar hoover, director of the federal bureau of investigation; john a. mccone, director of the central intelligence agency; richard m. helms, deputy director for plans of the central intelligence agency; thomas j. kelley, leo j. gauthier, and lyndal l. shaneyfelt, who testified concerning efforts to reconstruct the facts of the assassination; mrs. john f. kennedy; jack ruby; henry wade, district attorney of dallas; sgt. patrick t. dean, of the dallas police, who testified concerning a conversation with ruby; waggoner carr, attorney general of texas; richard edward snyder, john a. mcvickar, abram chayes, bernice waterman, and frances g. knight, of the u.s. department of state; secretary of state dean rusk; mrs. lee harvey oswald; harris coulter, an interpreter with the department of state; robert alan surrey, a dallas citizen who testified regarding his relationship with general walker; james j. rowley, chief of the u.s. secret service; robert carswell, special assistant to the secretary of the treasury; bernard william weissman, who testified concerning an advertisement signed by him which appeared in the dallas morning news on november , ; robert g. klause, a dallas citizen who testified regarding a "wanted for treason" handbill; mark lane, a new york attorney; president lyndon b. johnson and mrs. lyndon b. johnson; llewellyn e. thompson, former u.s. ambassador to the soviet union, and secretary of the treasury c. douglas dillon. contents page preface v testimony of-- alan h. belmont. jack revill v. j. brian robert a. frazier , alfred olivier arthur j. dziemian frederick w. light, jr j. edgar hoover john a. mccone and richard m. helms thomas j. kelley , leo j. gauthier lyndal l. shaneyfelt , mrs. john f. kennedy jack ruby henry wade patrick t. dean waggoner carr richard edward snyder john a. mcvickar , abram chayes , bernice waterman hon. dean rusk frances g. knight mrs. lee harvey oswald (resumed) , harris coulter robert alan surrey james j. rowley robert carswell bernard william weissman, accompanied by thomas a. flannery, esq robert g. klause mark lane (resumed) president lyndon b. johnson mrs. lyndon b. johnson llewellyn e. thompson c. douglas dillon commission exhibits introduced exhibit no.: page -a -a -a -b -a -a -b -c -d -e hearings before the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy _wednesday, may , _ testimony of alan h. belmont the president's commission met at : a.m. on may , , at maryland avenue ne., washington, d.c. present were chief justice earl warren, chairman; representative gerald r. ford, john j. mccloy, and allen w. dulles, members. also present were j. lee rankin, general counsel; david w. belin, assistant counsel; norman redlich, assistant counsel; samuel a. stern, assistant counsel; and charles murray, observer. the chairman. well, gentlemen, the commission will come to order. mr. belin, you had something you wanted the record to show in connection with our testimony yesterday. mr. belin. yes, sir. the chairman. would you present it to the commission now, please. mr. belin. yes, sir. we have a report from an fbi document that states that roy truly when interviewed on november , advised that "it is possible oswald did see him with a rifle in his hands within the past few days," that is as of november , "as a mr. warren caster, employed by southwestern publishing co., which company has an office in the same building, had come to his office with two rifles, one was a . caliber rifle which caster said he had purchased for his son, and the other a larger more high-powered rifle which caster said he had purchased with which to go deer hunting if he got a chance," and truly said that he examined the high-powered rifle and raised it to his shoulder and sighted over it and then returned it to caster and caster left with both rifles. then truly went on to state that he does not own a rifle and has had no other rifle in his hands or in his possession for a long period of time. now because of the problem that did arise, i believe the staff will promptly go down to dallas to take the deposition of both mr. truly and mr. caster to fully get this in deposition form and find out where these rifles were as of november . the chairman. and their caliber, and so forth. mr. belin. yes, sir. the chairman. yes, sir; i think that is desirable. you ought to do that. mr. belmont, the purpose of today's hearing is to take your testimony concerning the general procedures of the fbi and explain their relationship to the case of lee harvey oswald. would you please rise and raise your right hand. do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. belmont. i do. the chairman. will you be seated, please. mr. stern, will you conduct the examination, please? mr. stern. thank you, sir. would you state your full name for the record, please? mr. belmont. alan h. belmont. mr. stern. and your address, mr. belmont? mr. belmont. north yucatan street, arlington, va. mr. stern. mr. belmont, what was your education at the college level? mr. belmont. graduate of stanford university in california, with an a.b. degree, majoring in accounting. mr. stern. what year? mr. belmont. . mr. stern. what was your employment briefly before joining the federal bureau of investigation? mr. belmont. i joined the bureau, the fbi, in , and in the interim i worked for public accountants and as a public accountant myself in california. mr. stern. would you describe, please, for the commission briefly your experience in the federal bureau of investigation since ? mr. belmont. i entered the fbi november , , and after the period of training, was assigned to birmingham, ala., as my first office. i transferred to chicago in about august , and remained there until the summer of when i was transferred to washington, d.c., headquarters. in january of i was transferred to new york as supervisor of applicant and criminal investigative matters, remained there until the fall of , when i was made assistant agent in charge of our chicago office. in january of i was made agent in charge of our cincinnati office and remained there until the summer of when i was transferred to new york as assistant agent in charge of criminal matters in new york. subsequently, i was placed in charge of all security work in new york for a number of years and was transferred to washington in charge of the domestic intelligence division in february . i headed that division until about june of when i was made assistant to the director in charge of all investigative work of the fbi and that is my present position. mr. stern. could you describe the organization of the fbi with two purposes in mind: first, to fix your position in the organization. second, to provide a framework for describing the investigation of the case of lee harvey oswald. mr. belmont. the headquarters of the fbi is, of course, or the fbi is headed by mr. j. edgar hoover as director. directly under him is mr. clyde tolson, associate director. there are divisions broken down in particular types of administration. mr. dulles. may i say if any of this is classified, highly classified, you had better let us know because then we could go off the record. mr. belmont. there is nothing classified here. mr. dulles. right. i know that you would have that in mind. mr. belmont. thank you. basically, the division of the divisions at headquarters is between administrative and investigative. the th division is the inspection division and reports directly to mr. hoover. i am in charge of the investigative divisions which are comprised of the general investigative divisions handling general criminal work, the special investigative division handling special inquiries of applicant nature, and our aggressive approach to organized crime. the laboratory division handles all examinations of a scientific nature, and the domestic intelligence division handles all types of security work. i am in charge of those four divisions, and thus am in charge and responsible for our investigative work. our field offices, numbering , are geographically located in accordance with the amount of work in a particular area. each division in the field is headed by a special agent in charge, assisted by an assistant special agent in charge. they are responsible for the proper conduct of the work within their divisions. they are answerable to mr. hoover. they are also supervised, of course, in the particular area of the work concerned by the division at headquarters. depending on---- mr. dulles. may i ask is that in the united states? mr. belmont. united states and its possessions. mr. dulles. and puerto rico? mr. belmont. yes. mr. dulles. it doesn't include your legal---- mr. belmont. legal attachés abroad? mr. dulles. yes. mr. belmont. no; they are under the direct supervision of our headquarters. depending on the size of the division in the field, we will have a supervisory staff in order to properly supervise the work of the agents in the field. mr. stern. can you describe the establishment of a typical case, indicating the meaning of the terms office of origin and auxiliary office? mr. belmont. a case is opened by the fbi upon the receipt of information indicating a matter within the jurisdiction of the fbi. we restrict our investigations to those matters which are within our jurisdiction. the office of origin is the office where the major part of the work is to be done. thus it should be the controlling office of the investigation. normally, if an individual is under investigation, it will be the office where he resides. there will be in many cases investigation to be conducted by other offices. those offices that have investigations in that case are considered auxiliary offices, and will cover the investigation sent to it, sent to them, by the office of origin or by another auxiliary office if a lead develops within that area that requires attention elsewhere. i may say that the office of origin can be changed and is changed if during the investigation it becomes apparent that the focus of the investigation has shifted to another area. it is logical, therefore, that that office which bears the brunt of the investigation should be in possession of all the material pertinent to the investigation and should be charged with the supervision and running of the investigation and the direction of it. in the event the office of origin is changed at any given time, the previous office of origin will forward to the new office of origin all material pertaining to the case so that it will have a complete file and the necessary knowledge to run the case. mr. stern. can you tell us a bit more about how information is maintained and how it flows through the system from headquarters to office of origin, to the auxiliary office or in the other directions that are possible? mr. belmont. since the information is maintained in a standard and uniform filing system in both our field offices and our headquarters so that there is complete uniformity in the handling of information, our main filing system is at headquarters. consequently, we need here all pertinent information in any case. consequently, the reports and information developed during a case are sent to our headquarters for filing. it is pertinent to observe that we conduct close to million name checks a year for other agencies and departments of the federal government. consequently, we must have here all pertinent information so that a name check will reflect the information in possession of the bureau. when a report is prepared in our field office--an investigation, and there are leads or investigation to be performed in another office, copies of this report are designated for that office, together with the lead or the investigation to be covered. upon receipt of that the office gathers the background information from the report and proceeds with the investigation. mr. stern. this is the auxiliary office? mr. belmont. the auxiliary office. if there is a matter of urgency rather than wait for an investigative report, the information will be transmitted by more rapid means, such as teletype. all of our offices have teletypes; radio, our offices have a radio system; telephone. mr. dulles. is that teletype from the office to washington only, or is there some interoffice teletypes? mr. belmont. each office is connected with each other office by teletype. mr. dulles. it is; all over the country? mr. belmont. yes, sir; permitting rapid communication. mr. dulles. that is, new orleans and dallas would have teletype between these two offices? mr. belmont. yes. the chairman. what kind of radio communication, mr. belmont, did you say? mr. belmont. we have an emergency radio communication so that both for normal use, in the matter of expense, to reduce expenses, and for an emergency, our offices can communicate with headquarters and with each other. the chairman. on your own transmission system? mr. belmont. yes, sir; that is correct. we feel that in any type of an emergency we must, because of our heavy responsibilities---- the chairman. yes. mr. belmont. be able to communicate. as a matter of fact, during the recent disaster in alaska, one of the few means of communication with the mainland was our radio system. the chairman. is that so? mr. belmont. and we assisted in passing messages down from alaska. we have a communication called airtel which is simply a communication in letter form on a particular form which upon receipt is regarded as a matter of urgency and requires special handling. so that you will understand that, in an effort to cut expenses, we determined that a matter which could not wait for a report or a letter was normally sent by teletype, which is a relatively expensive means of communication. by sending an airtel which would be recognized for special handling, the office could receive the same information by mail with a delay of perhaps hours and it would still receive the urgent handling that we require for that particular thing. that is the purpose of the airtel. mr. stern. i think we might turn now to a description of your role in the investigation of lee harvey oswald, both before and after the assassination. mr. belmont. as the individual in charge of all investigative operations, the lee harvey oswald investigation is my responsibility, the same as any other investigative case in the bureau. mr. stern. did you have any particular involvement that you can recall in the investigation of his case before november --personally? mr. belmont. no; this case was not of the importance or urgency that it was considered necessary to call to my personal attention for personal direction. you must bear in mind that during the fiscal year the fbi handled something in the nature of , investigative matters. necessarily, then, those matters which would be called to my personal attention for personal handling would have to be on a selective basis. mr. stern. have you been personally involved in the investigation since the assassination? mr. belmont. i have indeed. mr. mccloy. before we get to this, how many cases of defections to the soviet union would you be investigating in the course of a fiscal year? mr. belmont. i couldn't give you an exact figure on that. it is our system to investigate any individual where there is information or evidence that indicates a necessity for investigation within our jurisdiction. i do know that we have investigated, and currently are investigating, defectors not only to the soviet union but in other areas of the world. mr. mccloy. they also would not come per se to your attention, your personal attention? mr. belmont. depending on the case. if there is a matter which has some urgency or there is a question of policy, it would and does come to my attention, and indeed comes to the attention of mr. hoover. i would not seek to give you any impression that i am not advised of many cases, i am. i am kept daily advised, as is mr. hoover, of all matters of policy or urgency or where there is a question of procedure. that is inherent in our system of close supervision. mr. mccloy. what i am getting at is, i think, is the matter of defection just out of its own character of such significance that it becomes a matter of out of the ordinary importance to the bureau when you learn of it. mr. belmont. again, mr. mccloy, i have no way of knowing the extent to which those particular cases would be called to my attention. as shown in the oswald case itself, we do take cognizance of these. immediately upon the publicity on oswald, there was a case opened. i do know that i see many such cases and where there is an indication of possible damage to the country through the leak of information, classified or in some other instance where there is a question of policy or urgency it is immediately called to my attention. i can only say in general i do see many such cases. mr. mccloy. well, we had testimony here yesterday that in a preassassination investigation of oswald that they learned he was a defector, they had interviews with him, and then they marked the case closed. at one stage it was reopened and then it was closed again because, as i gather it, there was no indication other than his defection that would lead to their, to the agents, feeling that this man was capable of violence or that he was a dangerous character in any sense. i gather that whether or not he was thought to be a dangerous character or whether he was capable of violence would be settled by the man in the field office, in the office that had charge, the man who was in charge of the office that was dealing with that case locally, is that right? mr. belmont. that is a judgment that he would render, but that judgment would be passed on by our headquarters staff. mr. mccloy. passed on by washington? mr. belmont. yes, indeed. in this instance by the domestic intelligence division. mr. mccloy. in this case then the decision to close that case, i am talking always about the preassassination business, was approved or tacitly approved by the washington staff. mr. belmont. not tacitly approved. approved. mr. mccloy. approved. well, you mark the paper approved or you just accept it, accept the file with a notation "return for closing." mr. belmont. when the closing report comes to our headquarters, it is reviewed by our supervisory staff, and if we do not agree with the action then the field office is notified to continue the investigation. that is a decision of substance. mr. mccloy. well, i can understand that but i gather when the report comes in you simply let the report lie unless you feel from your examination of it that it justified further action. you don't notify the field office, do you, that the closing of the case is approved? mr. belmont. no, mr. mccloy. with the volume of work that we have that would be an unnecessary move. mr. mccloy. i can understand that. mr. belmont. it is, however, thoroughly understood through our service, through the system that we follow, that if that report comes in and it is reviewed and it is filed here, if there is disagreement as to the handling of the closing of the case or any other matter pertaining to the investigation, the seat of government will then go out with instructions to the field. mr. mccloy. all right. mr. dulles. could i ask one question further on that point? the chairman. yes, indeed. mr. dulles. as i recall from the testimony of your people yesterday, with regard to the situation in dallas and later in new orleans, that after the case was marked closed in dallas, there was this incident in new orleans of the distribution of the fair play for cuba pamphlets, and then a case there, a live case, an open case was started. now, it wasn't quite clear to me yesterday from all the testimony, i missed a bit of it, unfortunately, as to whether the opening of a new case in new orleans, because of the new incident, would operate to reopen it or change the closed status of the case in dallas, and the case was then transferred from new orleans to dallas later. if you could clear that up for us i think it would be helpful. mr. belmont. the agent, fain at the time, who handled the case, closed the case after two interviews with oswald, arriving at the conclusion that the purpose of our investigation of oswald which was to determine whether he had been given an assignment by soviet intelligence, had been served. he closed the case, as he felt there was no further action to be taken. the purpose had been satisfied. headquarters agreed. in march agent hosty received information in dallas to the effect that oswald had been in communication with the worker, the east coast communist newspaper. he therefore reinstituted the case, and sent out a lead to check oswald's employment. he also received information, as i recall it, that oswald had been in communication with the fair play for cuba committee, so there were two incidents that aroused his interest. in june our new orleans office likewise received information that oswald had communicated with the worker or was on a subscription list for the worker. so that the case was revived in dallas by hosty. mr. dulles. that was even before what we call the new orleans incident? mr. belmont. correct. mr. dulles. yes. mr. belmont. and he learned that oswald had left dallas, the residence was then picked up in new orleans, and the case was revived. so that actually there was a joint revival of the case. then on august , , oswald was arrested by the new orleans police in connection with a disturbance of the peace in passing out these pamphlets, which further aroused our interest. so that the reopening of the case after the closing was due to these incidents that i have mentioned. mr. dulles. thank you. so that at the time of the assassination, this was an open and not a closed case as regards the dallas office. mr. belmont. that is correct. at the time that oswald was found to be living in new orleans, and this was definitely established that he was actually residing there, the dallas office in accordance with the procedure that i mentioned, transferred the case to new orleans as office of origin. subsequently, the case was again transferred back to dallas when it was determined that oswald was again residing in the dallas area. the chairman. all right, mr. stern. mr. stern. we were getting, mr. belmont, to the question of whether you had been personally involved in the investigation since the assassination. mr. belmont. i said i have indeed. mr. stern. yes. as a part of that you have reviewed in detail the investigation made prior to the assassination? mr. belmont. yes. mr. stern. have you participated in or supervised the preparation of reports and other correspondence to the commission in response to questions from the commission? mr. belmont. yes. mr. stern. i show you a letter with attached memorandum which has been marked for identification commission exhibit no. . can you identify this document, mr. belmont? (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. belmont. this is a letter transmitted on april , , to mr. rankin by the fbi with enclosure answering a number of questions which the commission posed to the fbi. mr. stern. did you supervise the preparation of this letter? mr. belmont. yes. mr. stern. and you have reviewed it and are familiar with it? mr. belmont. yes. mr. stern. we have covered in your answers to mr. dulles and mr. mccloy a good deal of the material in here. i would like briefly to touch upon several of the questions, the more important questions, regarding the nature of the fbi's interest in lee harvey oswald at various times, and i would like you to refer to each question that i indicate but not read your answer. paraphrase it. i think we have had a good deal of the specific detail but what i am interested in is a description from your examination of the investigation as it was carried on, of the nature of the fbi interest in oswald. i would like to turn to the first question in which we asked---- the chairman. you mean by that that you could get, we could get, a better idea from paraphrasing the answer than we could get from the exact answer itself? mr. stern. i think he might be able to highlight the answer. we have the exact answer on the record, and i thought it might---- the chairman. well, highlight it, if there is anything in addition i would think that would be relevant and pertinent. but to ask him to paraphrase that which he has done with great meticulousness would seem to me to be abortive and would take a lot of our time, and i don't see what it would prove. if you have anything in addition that you want to ask him, if you want to ask him if there is anything in addition he has not put in there, that is all right. but to just ask him to paraphrase answers that have been done with great care would seem to me to be confusing the record, and serve no purpose. mr. stern. i might ask, mr. belmont, whether there is anything you would like to add or amplify in these questions? mr. belmont. i believe the answers speak for themselves, although in view of mr. mccloy's questions a little while ago, i would be very happy to make clear our approach to this matter. for example, the fact that our interest in defectors, in this case, is shown by the fact that in early november we opened a file on oswald based on the newspaper publicity as to his defection. and the fact that he had applied to renounce his citizenship. we checked our files then to see was this a man we had a record on, and found that we had a fingerprint record solely based on his enlistment in the marines. we had no other record on him but we placed a stop or a flash notice in our fingerprint files, at that time so that if he should come back into the country unbeknownst to us and get into some sort of trouble we would be immediately notified. that is our opening interest in the case with the thought in mind that should he come back to the country we would want to know from him whether he had been enlisted by soviet intelligence in some manner. that is our procedure because of our experience that these things have happened, and we consider it our responsibility to settle that issue whenever we can. mr. stern. could you explain, mr. belmont, this procedure of placing a stop in the files that you just referred to? mr. belmont. we merely notify our identification division to place what we call a flash notice in the man's fingerprint file, which means that should he be arrested and the fingerprints be sent to the fbi, that the appropriate division, in this case the domestic intelligence division, would be notified that the man had been arrested, for what and where he was arrested, thus enabling us to center our attention on him. our next interest in this man arose as a result of the fact that his mother had sent, i believe, $ to him in moscow, so we went to her in april and we talked to her. at that time she told us that he had told her that he would possibly attend the albert schweitzer college in switzerland. so as a followup, we had our legal attache in paris make inquiry to see whether he had enrolled in this college. the resultant check showed that while they had expected him and a deposit had been placed that he did not show up at the college. mr. stern. i think that is all covered in quite adequate detail in the answer to the first question. mr. dulles. i have one question i would like to put to you on the first question and answer in your letter of april , in exhibit --the bureau's letter of april . you refer, first, to the fact that the first news you got about oswald was from a news service item, and then later on at the bottom of the second full paragraph you state, "a file concerning oswald was prepared and as communications were received from other u.s. government agencies those communications were placed in his file." the record may show the other communications, i guess our record does show, but do you feel that you adequately were advised by the state department as this case developed or by the cia or other agencies that might have known about it? mr. belmont. yes. we received a number of communications from other agencies, and we set up a procedure whereby we periodically checked the state department passport file to be kept advised of his activities or his dealings with the embassy in moscow so that on a periodic basis we were sure we had all information in the state department file. we received communications from the navy, and from other agencies. mr. dulles. is there any general procedure with respect to americans abroad who get into trouble. do you get informed so in case they come back you can take adequate precautionary measures? is that established sop? mr. belmont. yes, mr. dulles. we do receive such information, and if we pick up the information initially as we did here, from press reports or otherwise, we go to the other agencies and ask them whether they have any information and establish an interest there so that if they have not voluntarily furnished us the information they will do so upon our request. mr. dulles. thank you. mr. stern. on page , mr. belmont, in the answer to question no. , the second paragraph, could you tell us why the fbi preferred to interview oswald after he had established residence and why it was not preferable to interview him upon his arrival in new york? mr. belmont. this is a matter of experience. generally speaking when an individual such as oswald arrives back in the country and the press is there, there is an unusual interest in him. immigration and naturalization service has a function to perform, and we prefer, unless there is a matter of urgency, to let the individual become settled in residence. it is a much better atmosphere to conduct the interview, and to get the information that we seek. if it is a matter of urgency, we will interview him immediately upon arrival. mr. stern. on page , mr. belmont, in your answer to question no. , was it ordinary procedure for agent fain to re-interview oswald so soon after his first interview under the circumstances? is there anything unusual about that? mr. belmont. there is nothing unusual whatsoever. agent fain interviewed oswald on june , -- , i believe it was, was it not? the chairman. yes; . mr. belmont. and was not satisfied that he had received all the information he wanted nor that it was a matter that should be closed at that time. therefore, he set out a lead to re-interview oswald, and after an appropriate period he went back and re-interviewed him. this is within the prerogative of the investigative agent, and certainly if he was not satisfied with the first interview it was his duty and responsibility to pursue the matter until he was satisfied. mr. stern. in your answer to question no. , does the response of oswald to the question why he went to russia seem typical to you of the returned defector, or unusual? mr. belmont. there is no such thing as a typical response. each case is an individual case, and is decided on its merits and on the background of the individual, and the circumstances surrounding it. mr. stern. would it be usual for the defector to agree to advise you if he got a contact? are they generally that cooperative? mr. belmont. we ask them because we want to know, and the purpose of our interview with him was to determine whether he had been recruited by the soviet intelligence, and we asked him whether he would tell us if he was contacted here in this country. he replied he would. whether he meant it is a question. however, you must bear in mind that this man, i believe it was when he was interviewed in july of in the american embassy, the interviewing official there said it was apparent that he had learned his lesson the hard way, and that he had a new concept of the american way of life, and apparently had decided that russia was not for him. when we interviewed him likewise he told us that he had not enjoyed his stay in russia. he likewise commented that he had not enjoyed his stay in the marines. so that in direct answer to your question, it is customary for us in such a case as this, to ask the man if he will report a contact, and it is customary for him to say yes, because frankly, he would be putting himself in a rather bad light if he didn't say yes. mr. stern. turning to---- mr. dulles. could i ask a question there: do i correctly read your report and those of your agents to the general effect that you had no evidence that there was any attempt to recruit oswald in the united states? mr. belmont. no evidence whatsoever. mr. stern. question , mr. belmont, on page , sets out the information from a report by agent hosty regarding alleged fair play for cuba committee activity by oswald while he was still residing in dallas. have you found that an investigation was conducted to determine whether that was accurate and do you think it should have been investigated? mr. belmont. as to whether he was active with the fair play for cuba committee in dallas? we did check. we have rather excellent coverage of such activities. there is no evidence whatsoever to indicate that he was active with the fair play for cuba committee in dallas. and, as a matter of fact, i can go a step further and say that following his dissemination of pamphlets and his activities in new orleans, our inquiry of our sources who are competent to tell us what is going on in the organizations such as fair play for cuba committee, advised that he was not known to them in new orleans. so that his activities in new orleans were of his own making, and not as a part of the organized activities of the fair play for cuba committee. mr. mccloy. on that point, mr. belmont, where did he get his material, the printed material that he was distributing? must he not have gotten that from some headquarters? mr. belmont. it is my recollection that he had that printed up himself. the chairman. that is right. mr. mccloy. all of it, so far as you know, was self-induced, so to speak? mr. belmont. correct. mr. stern. does your answer imply, mr. belmont, that there were fair play for cuba activities in dallas and new orleans that you knew about? mr. belmont. no; we do not have information of fair play for cuba activities in dallas nor any organized activity in new orleans. so that this letter that you refer to, which was undated, was, as in so many things that oswald wrote, not based on fact. mr. stern. on page in the answer to question , you refer to the inconsistencies and contradictions between the information oswald gave to agent quigley when he interviewed him in the new orleans jail and the facts as they were known to the fbi before that, and say that "in the event the investigation of oswald warranted a further interview, these discrepancies would have been discussed with him." can you explain why the fact of these inconsistencies and contradictions and perhaps outright lies to agent quigley was not itself reason for a further interview? mr. belmont. let me turn this just a little bit and say why should we re-interview him? our interest in this man at this point was to determine whether his activities constituted a threat to the internal security of the country. it was apparent that he had made a self-serving statement to agent quigley. it became a matter of record in our files as a part of the case, and if we determined that the course of the investigation required us to clarify or face him down with this information, we would do it at the appropriate time. in other words, he committed no violation of the law by telling us something that wasn't true, and unless this required further investigation at that time, we would handle it in due course, in accord with the whole context of the investigation. mr. stern. do you know whether the fact of these contradictions was called to the attention of the dallas office at the time of oswald's return to dallas? mr. belmont. the entire file, of course, or the pertinent serials were sent to dallas at the time that the case was transferred back to dallas so they would have that information. mr. stern. i gather what you are saying is they would note the contradictions from the reports? mr. belmont. yes. mr. stern. in the answer to question on page , again in connection with these inconsistencies, the letter reads "these inconsistencies were considered in subsequent investigation." can you expand on that and tell us how they were considered? mr. belmont. that is right along the line of my previous explanation to you, namely, that they were recorded in the file. in the event it was desired to talk to him further at a future date, they would be considered as to whether we desired to have him further explain. mr. stern. on page , in response to question , which asked for an explanation of the reason for the investigation to ascertain his whereabouts, the letter reads, "in view of oswald's background and activities the fbi had a continuing interest in him." what was the nature of that continuing interest at that time? mr. belmont. on august , , because of his activities in distributing these pamphlets, and his arrest in new orleans, headquarters here in washington sent a letter to the new orleans and dallas offices instructing them to pursue the investigation. in other words, in evaluating this information we felt it desirable that we further explore his activities to determine whether they were inimical to the internal security of the country. so that we had this continuing interest based on our evaluation, and so instructed our field offices. mr. stern. mr. chairman, i believe the answers to the other questions give us a complete enough record. the chairman. very well. mr. stern. may this exhibit which has been marked for identification be admitted? the chairman. it may be admitted in evidence under that number. (the document referred to, previously marked commission exhibit no. for identification, was received in evidence.) mr. mccloy. is there anything else, mr. belmont, that you may want to add? you have already been asked this question as you went through all these questions and answers, but is there anything else you would like to add in view of your answers this morning in further elaboration of the answers that have been given? mr. belmont. no, sir; unless the commission has further questions at this point, i believe that the questions are answered properly and sufficiently. mr. mccloy. you think that if you are interviewing a defector which is something that provokes your interest, and i guess the mere fact of defection and return to the united states would do so, and if you found that defector was lying to you, you think that without something in addition to that there would be no further necessity of examining him. is that a fair question? let me put it another way. mr. belmont. i have just a little difficulty following you. mr. mccloy. here is my point. here was a defector who comes within the category of interesting cases naturally. mr. belmont. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. and you question him and you find he is lying to you. at that stage, as i understand your testimony, you say without something more you don't necessarily go any further, is that right? mr. belmont. no; that is not correct. we had talked to this man twice in detail concerning the question of possible recruitment by soviet intelligence. we had checked his activities. he was settling down. he had a wife and a child. he had, according to what he had told us, in our interview with him, he had not enjoyed his stay in russia. the state department evaluation of him in moscow was that he had learned his lesson and, as a matter of fact, he had made some statement to the effect that he now recognized the value of the american way of life, along those lines. so that we had pretty well settled that issue. at the time that we interviewed him in the jail in new orleans, we had again been following his activities because of his communications, his contacts with the worker and the fair play for cuba committee and our interest there was to determine whether he was a dangerous subversive. the interview in the jail was very apparently a self-serving interview in an attempt to explain his activities in the new orleans area, and if i recall correctly, he took the position that the policy as directed against cuba was not correct, and that the fair play for cuba committee was merely addressing itself to the complaints of cuba, and was not in effect a subversive organization. if, mr. mccloy, during those first two interviews where we were pursuing this matter of him being a defector and his recruitment, he had lied to us, and the agent was not satisfied we would have pursued it to the bitter end. or if during any other time information came to our attention which indicated a necessity to pursue that further we would have pursued it to the bitter end. mr. mccloy. you speak of this as a self-serving interview. do you think that he sought the interview with you, with mr. quigley eventually, because he had known of the prior contacts that he had had with the fbi, and he simply wanted to keep out of trouble? mr. belmont. i don't know why he asked to see an agent. i simply do not know why. mr. mccloy. i think that is all. mr. stern. mr. belmont, i show you a letter marked for identification commission exhibit no. . can you identify that for the commission, please? (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. belmont. this is a letter dated may , , addressed to the commission which sets forth in summary the contents of the headquarters file on oswald prior to the assassination. mr. stern. do you have that file with you? mr. belmont. yes, sir. mr. stern. would you explain generally to the commission what materials there are in that file that for security reasons you would prefer not to disclose? mr. belmont. the file contains the identity of some of our informants in subversive movements. it contains information as to some of the investigative techniques whereby we were able to receive some of the information which has been made available to the commission. mr. stern. i think that is enough, mr. belmont, on that. mr. mccloy. you didn't have anything further to add to that, did you? mr. belmont. no. the chairman. i think as to those things if it is agreeable to the other members of the commission, we will not pursue any questioning that will call for an answer that would divulge those matters that you have just spoken of. mr. belmont. i would like to make it clear, mr. chairman, that--i think that is very kind of you--i would like to make it clear that mr. hoover has expressed a desire to be of the utmost help to the commission, and to make any information available that will be helpful to the commission. i think your observation is very much worthwhile. mr. stern. mr. belmont, have you reviewed the actual file and this letter of may which summarizes each document in the file? mr. belmont. yes, sir. mr. stern. and to your knowledge, is this an accurate summary of each piece of information in the file? mr. belmont. yes, sir. mr. stern. the file is available to the commission? mr. belmont. yes, sir. mr. stern. if they want to look at any item in it? mr. belmont. yes, sir. the chairman. the file does not include that security matter that you mentioned, or does it? mr. belmont. this file is as it is maintained at the bureau with all information in it. the chairman. with all information in it? mr. belmont. yes, sir; this is the actual file. the chairman. i see. mr. rankin. mr. belmont, are you willing to leave the file a reasonable time in case any of the commissioners desire to examine it personally? mr. belmont. yes, sir. mr. rankin. we will return it. the chairman. i wonder if we do want it on those conditions. if we want to get anything from it don't you think, mr. rankin, that we ought to make it known here while the witness is here. i personally don't care to have this information that involves our security unless it is necessary, and i don't want to have documents in my possession where it could be assumed that i had gotten that information and used it, so i would rather, i would rather myself confine our questions to this file to the testimony of mr. belmont. then if we want it, if we want any of those things, it then becomes a matter to discuss here in the open, and not just in privacy. mr. rankin. mr. chairman, i felt it made a better record if the file is available only to the commissioners in case they do want to examine it, and then it will be taken back and the staff will not examine it. the chairman. i think he has stated that the file will be made available to us whenever we want it. mr. rankin. yes. the chairman. if we do want it to read it that is one thing. for myself, i think we can get what we want from examining the witness, and then if there is any portion of it that comes into play why we can determine the question here, but i really would prefer not to have a secret file, i mean a file that contains matters of that kind in our possession. mr. rankin. there is one factor that i wanted to get before the commission and in the record, and that is that you had all the information that the fbi had in regard to this matter, and i thought that was important to your proceedings, so that we would not retain such a file, and we had an accurate summary but that it is available so that the commission can be satisfied that nothing was withheld from it in regard to this particular question. that was the purpose of the inquiry. mr. dulles. i assume, mr. belmont, if later other testimony arises that would make us desire to refer to this file we could consult it in your offices or you would make it available to us? mr. belmont. yes, sir. the chairman. i think i would personally rather have it done on that basis. what do you think, mr. mccloy? mr. mccloy. i was just glancing at the file, and it seems to have the regular, the usual type of reports that we have seen. but there is a good bit of elaboration in those, in that file of the summary which is here. this summary i don't think can purport to be a complete description of the documents that are in here, as i glance through them here. i just happened to see a good bit of detail in here which doesn't have anything to do with the security problem we talked about, but i would think that probably it would be wise for some member of the commission or members of the commission as a whole, to run through that file in order to be sure that we have seen the material elements of the file that we would not perhaps, might not, be able to get from this letter of may . the chairman. well, there are so many of these questions in here that are obviously matters that we would have no more concern with than just to know about them. start from the very beginning, a news clipping from the corpus christi times, dated october , . now if that excites any interest on the part of any member, why we could say, "well, could you show us that?" then the next is the united press release, dated october at moscow, and a great many of these. now, i wonder if it wouldn't be better for us to look over all of these various things, items that are in the file, and then if there are any that happen to excite our interest, we can ask mr. belmont about it. if it is a matter that involves security, we could then discuss it and make our determination as to whether we wanted to see it. i would think that when we are dealing with things that are as sensitive as the fbi has to deal with in that respect, that that would be adequate; that is my opinion of it. but if the rest of the commission feel that they want to see it notwithstanding the security measure, i would, of course, have no objection. mr. rankin. mr. chief justice, what i was trying to deal with was a claim by someone that the commission never saw all there was in the hands of the fbi about lee harvey oswald, and we recognize that some of these items should not be considered important by anyone, as we look at the matter, but we wanted you to be able to satisfy the public and the country that whatever there was that the fbi had, the commission had it, and we didn't think that in light of the security problems the whole file should be a part of the files of the commission. and we tried to present here a summary, even of items that did not seem important, but we did want the record in such condition that the commission could say in its report, "we have seen everything that they have." i think it is important to the case. mr. mccloy. i notice, mr. belmont, in running through this file, a note here that symbols are used in instances where the identities of the sources must be concealed. mr. belmont. that is correct, sir. mr. mccloy. if that is so---- mr. belmont. in some instances. mr. mccloy. only in some instances. there are other cases where that is not the case. mr. belmont. yes; that is right. mr. mccloy. there is a great deal of narrative in here about oswald and his relations with the embassy. maybe it is elsewhere in the record. mr. belmont. i would presume that you have received that from the other agencies. those are copies of communications that the other agencies sent to us. the chairman. well, why couldn't we go over this list and see what items we would be interested in and then we can determine, can we not, whether we want---- mr. mccloy. i am not so sure, you can look through this yourself, i am not so sure if from reading just that short summary you get the full impact of all the narrative that is in the various reports. there is a good bit here. for example, one page i have here about this business of beating his wife and the drinking. there is a good bit of detail. mr. belmont. mr. mccloy, you have that record. the chairman. we have the record, i have read the records myself. mr. mccloy. maybe we have that one. mr. belmont. any investigative report you have. mr. mccloy. is there any investigative report in here that we have not got? mr. belmont. no, sir. mr. rankin. we are trying to develop, mr. chief justice and commissioners, that you have everything that the fbi had, this is their total file in regard to this matter of lee harvey oswald so that there is nothing withheld from you as far as the fbi is concerned. that is part of what we are trying to develop this morning, in addition to the items themselves. mr. dulles. i wonder if the staff, mr. rankin, could not go over this and check over those items we have from other sources and what the fbi has already furnished us so what we deal with with respect to this file are only items that are not in the commission's records, already. that would cut this down by half, i would imagine or more. mr. rankin. yes; we could do that for you. mr. dulles. then we could have this available possibly at a later date just to check over the other items against your files to see if there is any information there that we really need. the chairman. you could come back, couldn't you, mr. belmont? mr. belmont. i am at your disposal. the chairman. i think that would be better. i think, mr. rankin, your purpose is entirely laudable here, but i think we do have to use some discretion in the matter, and you say that you want it so we can say we have seen everything. well, the same people who would demand that we see everything of this kind would also demand that they be entitled to see it, and if it is security matters we can't let them see it. it has to go back to the fbi without their scrutiny. so unless, i would say, unless there is something that we think here is vital to this situation, that it isn't necessary for us to see the whole file, particularly in view of the fact that we have practically--we have all the reports, he says we have all the reports that are in that file, and it just seems like thrashing old straw to go over it and over it again. mr. mccloy. do we have copies of all these telegrams that are in here from the embassy? mr. belmont. you are looking at---- mr. mccloy. not embassy; here is one from mexico. do we have that? we don't have these in our files, for example. mr. belmont. this is subsequent to the assassination. you see your area of interest at this point is information, all information we had prior to the assassination. i did not remove from this file the items that started to come in subsequent to the assassination, you see. mr. mccloy. my feeling is that somebody on the commission should examine that file. i can't come to any other conclusion after reading it all, because i don't know what is in it, what is in our record, and what is in that file. there is a good bit of material there that is narrative, which i think would be relevant. certainly, i don't believe we can be possibly criticized for deleting or not producing a file which contains the type of information that you are speaking of. we are just as interested in protecting the security of your investigative processes as you are. but i don't think that when it is on the record that we have this file, that may contain material that was not in our files, and we are given the opportunity to examine it, without disclosing these confidential matters that we ought not to have somebody go through it. mr. dulles. i agree with that but i think we could save time if we checked off first what we have already and that would cut out about half of that file probably. mr. mccloy. i think in a rapid glance through it, i think just about half of it. the chairman. well, suppose you do that then, get those and let's see. all right, proceed, mr. stern. mr. stern. i think perhaps we ought to leave the entire matter of the file then until we can give you the information. the chairman. that is right. mr. stern. may we admit for the purposes of the record this list at this time, mr. chief justice, which has been marked no. ? the chairman. yes. there are no security matters in this? mr. belmont. no, sir. the chairman. it may be admitted as exhibit no. . (the document referred to, previously marked commission exhibit no. for identification, was received in evidence.) mr. stern. mr. belmont, can you identify this letter dated february with an attached affidavit which has been marked for identification as commission exhibit no. ? (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , for identification.) mr. belmont. yes; this is a letter dated february , , to the commission from the fbi to which is attached an affidavit by director j. edgar hoover. mr. stern. what is the subject? mr. belmont. stating flatly that lee harvey oswald was never an informant of the fbi. mr. dulles. would you define informant. obviously in the sense he knew some information as previously indicated from the previous interviews. i mean for the record, would you just define what you mean by an informant in this sense? mr. belmont. an informant in this sense is an individual who has agreed to cooperate with the fbi and to furnish information to the fbi either for or without payment. mr. stern. thank you. mr. belmont. this would not, of course, include the cooperative citizen to whom we go, and who frequently and frankly discloses any information in his possession, but rather someone who joins an organization or seeks out information at the direction and instance of the fbi relative to subversive or criminal matters. in other words, i want to make it clear we do not regard patriotic citizens as informants. mr. stern. i take it you also would not have regarded lee oswald as an informant from the contacts with him that you have told us about and the other agents have told us about? mr. belmont. indeed not; in no way could he be considered an informant; in no way. mr. stern. did you supervise or assist in the preparation of the information contained here? mr. belmont. yes, sir. mr. stern. and you are familiar with it? mr. belmont. yes; i am. mr. stern. and to your knowledge, does it accurately and completely state the bureau's practice in recruiting a prospective informant? mr. belmont. that is correct. mr. stern. is there anything you would like to add to the information covered in there with respect to your practices regarding informants? mr. belmont. no; only in my personal knowledge this is a correct statement and lee harvey oswald was not an informant of the fbi. mr. stern. did you ever use the term "agent" to apply to anyone other than an employee, a special agent employee of the fbi? mr. belmont. no; we do not. mr. dulles. could i ask you, mr. belmont, whether mr. fain's separation from the fbi had anything whatever to do with the oswald case or in his handling of the oswald case? mr. belmont. no; indeed not. mr. fain came to the retirement age and decided he wanted to retire, which is his privilege, and he retired and is presently working in texas and very happy, i understand. mr. dulles. thank you. mr. belmont. he retired in good graces, good standing, so far as the fbi is concerned. the chairman. and a year before the assassination. mr. belmont. frankly, i don't recall. the chairman. yes; it was august , he testified. mr. stern. you have already covered this, mr. belmont, but just so that the record is completely clear on this point, was lee oswald ever an agent of the fbi? mr. belmont. lee oswald was never an agent of the fbi. mr. stern. the letter of february , , from mr. hoover, alludes to testimony furnished the commission by district attorney wade. have you subsequently been advised that mr. wade had not testified before the commission? mr. belmont. yes; we received a letter from the commission advising us that the incident referred to was an informal discussion rather than actual testimony before the commission. mr. stern. and also to complete the record, have you been advised that mr. wade was not suggesting that he believed the rumor about oswald as an informant, but felt obliged to call it to the attention of the commission? mr. belmont. the commission's letter so advised us. mr. stern. mr. chairman, may this be admitted with no. ? the chairman. it may be admitted under that number. (the document referred to, previously marked commission exhibit no. for identification, was received in evidence.) mr. stern. mr. belmont, i show you a letter dated february , , a number of affidavits by special agents, attached to it. it was identified yesterday, parts of it were identified yesterday and it therefore carries the number for identification . can you identify this letter for us? mr. belmont. in order to be sure--i beg your pardon. this is a letter dated february , , to the commission from the fbi, to which is attached affidavits of fbi personnel who had reason to contact lee harvey oswald and who were in a supervisory capacity over the agents who contacted oswald. mr. stern. did you supervise the preparation of this material? mr. belmont. these affidavits were prepared, of course, by the men themselves. i have read the affidavits, and they were compiled as an enclosure and sent over with this letter. mr. stern. you have reviewed them in preparation for your testimony before the commission? mr. belmont. yes, sir. mr. stern. to your knowledge, are they accurate? mr. belmont. they are accurate, to my knowledge, yes. mr. stern. are they complete? mr. belmont. yes. mr. stern. they do not omit any significant fact you know of? mr. belmont. no. mr. stern. in connection with the material they cover? mr. belmont. no. mr. stern. unless there are any questions on that, mr. chairman, i suggest we admit this document. the chairman. it may be admitted as no. . (the document referred to, previously marked commission exhibit no. for identification, was received in evidence.) mr. stern. mr. belmont, i show you a letter dated march , , from director hoover to mr. rankin, the general counsel of the commission, with a series of attachments. can you identify this which has been marked for identification as no. . can you identify this for the commission? (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. belmont. this is a letter dated march , , to the commission from the fbi to which is attached the instructions contained in our manuals as to the type of information which should be disseminated to secret service and our relations or liaison with secret service. mr. stern. it was prepared in response to a request from the commission? mr. belmont. that is correct. mr. stern. did you supervise or assist in the preparation? mr. belmont. i did. mr. stern. have you reviewed it recently? mr. belmont. yes. mr. stern. is it complete with respect to the matters covered? mr. belmont. yes; it is. mr. stern. is there anything you would like to add to it with respect to the matters covered? mr. belmont. well---- mr. dulles. may i just interrupt here a moment. is this inquiry directed to the question of whether it is now adequate or whether this is complete as of the time of the assassination? i think we have two questions there to consider. mr. belmont. mr. dulles, this letter outlines our relations with secret service and the material that is attached covers both the instructions to our agents prior to the assassination and the current instructions. mr. dulles. subsequent to the assassination? mr. belmont. yes, sir. mr. dulles. yes. mr. stern. what were the criteria you employed and instructed your agents to employ before the assassination in determining what information should be reported to the secret service regarding threats against the president, members of his family, the president-elect, and the vice president? mr. belmont. these are contained in detail in the attachments which represent sections of our manual of instructions which are available to all of our personnel in the field as well as the seat of government, and also in the fbi handbook which is in possession of the individual agent in the field. these instructions require that any information indicating the possibility of an attempt against the person or safety of the persons mentioned by you must be referred immediately by the most expeditious means of communications to the nearest office of the secret service. further, that our headquarters in washington must be advised by teletype of the information and the fact that it has been furnished to secret service. mr. stern. specifically, the kind of information you were interested in, that is before the assassination? mr. belmont. yes. specifically the kind? mr. stern. yes. mr. belmont. any information indicating the possibility of a threat against the president and vice president and members of the family. mr. stern. have you broadened---- mr. belmont. i may say, sir---- mr. stern. yes. mr. belmont. that this practice was assiduously followed, and you will find that the files of the secret service are loaded with information over the years that we have furnished them. that was a practice religiously followed and a practice voluntarily followed without request. in other words, we do not have a written request for this type of information but rather considered it our responsibility and duty to furnish this information. mr. stern. did you ever participate in or do you know of any discussion with the secret service before the assassination regarding the kind of information they were interested in? mr. belmont. we had close liaison with secret service, and i have no doubt that in oral discussions that the question came up. i wasn't present but i would assume it has come up, particularly as we were constantly furnishing information. we have no written criteria, you might say, as to what should be furnished. mr. stern. that is, established by the secret service. mr. belmont. that is correct. mr. stern. and you yourself never participated in any discussion of---- mr. belmont. no; i did not. mr. stern. this liaison function. mr. belmont. this is something we have done for years on the basis that we consider it our responsibility not only as far as the president goes. as you know, mr. chairman, we have also followed the same policy relative to other high officials when it appears desirable. mr. stern. have you subsequent to the assassination augmented your instructions to special agents in this respect? mr. belmont. yes. on december , , we prepared additional instructions reiterating those already in effect, and adding other dissemination to secret service concerning the security of the president. the chairman. where do those new ones appear in the exhibit, mr. belmont? mr. belmont. they appear as an attachment--working from the back, i think, mr. chairman, i can help you most. the chairman. yes. mr. belmont. eight pages from the back it starts, it reads, "manual of instructions section ." the chairman. yes; i have it. mr. belmont. the first page is the same information that we previously furnished to secret service involving threats. the chairman. the first page is intact, as it was before. mr. belmont. there may be some slight changes in wording but essentially it is the same dealing with possible threats. the chairman. yes. mr. dulles. mr. belmont, i wonder if it would be possible for the commission's convenience to date each one of these papers as of a certain date. it is quite difficult going through it now without referring to the letter in each case to determine whether the instructions are as of the date of the assassination or as of the present date? mr. belmont. we can do that without any difficulty. i would be glad to do it with the staff, or can i help you here? mr. dulles. well, i think we can do that later but i think it would be useful when this goes into the record for our later reference in studying this to have those dates available to us on each one of the attachments. mr. belmont. very good. mr. dulles. thank you. mr. belmont. coming back to this item you inquired about, sir, the other dissemination to secret service concerning the security of the president is set forth on pages and of this inclusion in our manual, and it extends the dissemination to "subversives, ultrarightists, racists, and fascists, (_a_) possessing emotional instability or irrational behavior, (_b_) who have made threats of bodily harm against officials or employees of federal, state or local government or officials of a foreign government, (_c_) who express or have expressed strong or violent anti-u.s. sentiments and who have been involved in bombing or bomb-making or whose past conduct indicates tendencies toward violence, and (_d_) whose prior acts or statements depict propensity for violence and hatred against organized government." that was prepared in an effort to provide additional, and a voluntary effort, without request, to provide additional information that might be helpful to avoid such an incident as happened november , . mr. stern. this did not come about, this change did not come about, through any request from the secret service or discussion with the secret service? mr. belmont. no. we made these changes, as i say, in an effort to provide any additional information in the light of what happened that might be of assistance to secret service and might assist in protecting the president. mr. dulles. i wonder, mr. belmont, whether you would consider possibly changing in section (_d_) the word "and" to "or" whose prior acts or statements depict propensity for violence" and then it now reads "and hatred against organized government". there have been cases, i believe, where the propensity for violence had not been previously noted but the hatred of organized government has. mr. belmont. we will be happy to change that. mr. dulles. i just suggest for your consideration, i don't wish to rewrite it. mr. belmont. we would be happy to change it, mr. dulles. mr. stern. following mr. dulles' thought, in the line above that, mr belmont, should that "and" before (_d_) be "and" or "or"? do you mean these---- mr. belmont. we do not mean that all of these items must be coupled together if that is your thought. mr. stern. that is right. mr. belmont. we will be happy to change the "and" before (d) to an "or". mr. stern. this means any of the broad classifications of people, subversives, ultrarightists, racists or fascists who meet any of these four tests. mr. belmont. that is correct. mr. stern. can you give the commission some notion of the increase in volume which the broadening of your criteria has brought about? by volume, i mean the volume of your references to the secret service. mr. belmont. i do not have an exact figure, however, i do know that more than , additional names have gone over to secret service under these criteria. the chairman. in what period of time? mr. belmont. since we put them out. the chairman. i see. mr. belmont. which was december . the chairman. yes. mr. mccloy. have you included defectors in this list? mr. belmont. yes, sir; we do include defectors. mr. stern. you mean as of december , ? mr. belmont. correct. mr. stern. has the expansion of your criteria led to any problem or difficulty for you or for individuals or do you anticipate any problem or difficulty under the expanded criteria? mr. belmont. it seems to me that there is a necessity to balance security against freedom of the individual. this is a country of laws and a government of law, and not a government of men. inevitably the increase in security means an increase in the control of the individual and a diminishment, therefore, of his individual liberties. it is a simple matter to increase security. but every time you increase security you diminish the area of the rights of the individual. in some countries the problem of a visiting dignitary is met without much difficulty. persons who are suspect or may be considered dangerous are immediately rounded up and detained while the individual is in the country. the authorities have no problem because in those countries there is not a free society such as we enjoy, and the people who are detained have no redress. the fbi approaches this whole field of security--i am not boring you with this, am i? the chairman. no, indeed. this is tremendously important. mr. belmont. the fbi approaches this whole field of security and its tremendous responsibilities to protect the internal security of the country as a sacred trust. in carrying out our investigations and our work in the security field, we do it in such a manner under the law that we strengthen rather than weaken the free society that we enjoy. it is for that reason that our men are trained carefully, thoroughly, and supervised carefully, to insure that their approach to the entire security field, which inevitably touches on control of thought, is handled with extreme care. our activities are directed to meet the terrific responsibility we have for the internal security of the country, but to meet it under the law. we feel that to place security as such above the rights of the individual or to increase these controls beyond what is absolutely essential is the first step toward the destruction of this free society that we enjoy. we have been asked many times why we don't pick up and jail all communists. the very people who ask those questions don't realize that if action, unrestrained action, is taken against a particular group of people, a precedent is set which can be seized on in the future by power-hungry or unscrupulous authorities as a precedent, and which inevitably will gnaw away at this free society we have, and sooner or later will be applied to the very individuals who are seeking this action. up until the time of the assassination we religiously and carefully and expeditiously furnished to secret service immediately on a local basis as well as on a national basis, headquarters basis, any and all information that in any way was indicated to be a possible threat against the president. this permitted secret service to take such action as was required against these individuals who had by their action set the stage for appropriate restraint or observation based on something they did. therefore, they were not in a position to complain legitimately because they had by some word or deed set in motion a threat against the president of the united states. since the assassination, as i have testified, we have broadened the area of dissemination in an effort to be helpful. it stands without question that we could have said, "no; we won't go any further." but we felt that it was our responsibility to do whatever we could do and, hence, we have broadened these criteria, and we have distributed thousands of pieces of information on individuals to secret service. (at this point in the proceedings, representative ford enters the hearing room.) we are not entirely comfortable about this, because under these broadened criteria after all we are furnishing names of people who have not made a threat against the president, people who have expressed beliefs, who have belonged or do belong to organizations which believe in violent revolution or taking things into their own hands. unless such information is handled with judgment and care, it can be dangerous. for example, we know that in one city when the president recently visited, the police went to these people and told them, "you stay in the house while the president is here or if you go out, we will go with you." we know that these people have threatened to consult attorneys, have threatened to make a public issue of the matter on the theory that this is restraint that is not justified as they have made no threats against the president. now, when you examine this a bit further, we give these names to secret service. secret service must do something with those names, and secret service solicits the assistance of the police, quite properly. but i don't need, i think, to paint this picture any further, that when you get away from a specific act or deed of threats against the president, and you go into the broader area of what, perhaps, a man is thinking and, therefore, he may be a threat, and you take action against the man on the basis of that, there is a danger. that is why, despite the fact that we have given this additional information and will continue to do so, we are uneasy. again, if i may be permitted to continue, this is inherent in the entire approach of the fbi to the security field. we go as far in our investigations as is necessary. but we go no further. we do not harass people. we do not conduct an investigation of a man for what he may be thinking. we attempt to the very best of our ability to carry out this responsibility for internal security without adopting tactics of harassment or unwarranted investigation, and we will not pursue a security matter beyond that which is essential to carry out our responsibilities. now, i say that because that is the broad field of our policy, and i say it with complete sincerity, because i know. i have been in this work with the fbi both in the actual investigative field and in the policymaking and supervisory field for years, and i know the policies and the procedures that are followed, and the care with which this problem is approached, and i agree with it fully. mr. mccloy. you are going to impose a pretty heavy burden on the secret service when you dump them with the , more names than they have been used to having. mr. belmont. it will be more than , , sir. this will continue. mr. mccloy. from your knowledge of the situation, do you feel that the secret service is equipped to cope with this added burden? is it something that you feel---- mr. belmont. the secret service, as it has in the past, is required to call on the police for assistance in this field when the president visits a city. i do not know the exact complement of personnel of secret service, but they are a relatively small organization. mr. mccloy. it may be they will have to reorganize some of their procedures to cope with this, won't they? mr. belmont. i do not know. mr. mccloy. you have got a pretty broad classification here. "all investigative personnel should be alert for the identification of subversives, ultrarightists, racists, and fascists (_a_) possessing emotional instability or irrational behavior." that may include a good many people in the united states and maybe some members of this commission--i am speaking for myself. there is irrational behavior that i have been guilty of many times. [laughter.] this doesn't mean you are going to send everybody over there, but the names that--all those under your classification, all of those in your opinion come under that classification unless you feel they have some, there is some, reason behind it. in other words, you are selective in this list. you purport to be selective in the numbers that you are going to convey to, the names you are going to convey to, the secret service. mr. belmont. we endeavor to use good judgment, sir. now, as you indicate there are what, million people in this country, and who knows when someone may adopt abnormal behavior. you cannot tell tomorrow who will pose a risk. this is an effort to be as helpful as possible and, as we have in the past, we will use our best judgment. but this will broaden considerably the type of people and the number of people who go to the secret service. mr. mccloy. that is what i am getting at really, mr. belmont. you are not saying that all those people that you characterize here under this paragraph will ipso facto be sent over to the secret service every time the president makes a move. this simply says that all investigative personnel should be alert in that situation; am i right in that? mr. belmont. no, sir. if you will follow in the next paragraph, we say, "if cases are developed falling within the above categories, promptly furnish secret service locally a letterhead memorandum" with the information. mr. mccloy. so without any further ado all the people in your list who are in that category will be transferred over to the secret service when there is an occasion, when the president travels? mr. belmont. no. this is a continuing procedure. in other words, during our investigations we come across someone who is in this area or category, and this is a requirement that that man's name go to secret service with a brief description of him, and secret service then has that filed and is in a position to know that that individual has been referred to them. mr. mccloy. well, that brings up again the comment that i originally made. this does put a big burden of investigation and judgment on the secret service, one which they have not heretofore presumably had placed on their shoulders. mr. belmont. i think you are correct. mr. mccloy. the reason i am asking these questions is because by implication, at least, one of our directives is to look into this situation for the future protection of the president, and we want to see that we have got something that is practical as well as cautious. mr. dulles. do the memoranda attached, mr. belmont, to this exhibit indicate what classes were so identified for investigation under the procedures existing at the time of the assassination and what change has been made, how it has been extended? mr. belmont. yes, sir. if you---- mr. dulles. by the definitions under paragraph of the manual of instructions. mr. belmont. the previous page and the paragraph right above no. sets forth the same information that we acted on prior to the assassination. mr. dulles. that is paragraph ? mr. belmont. yes, sir. mr. dulles. the manual of instructions, section . mr. belmont. yes, sir. mr. dulles. what are the various categories given now at the top of page of this exhibit which have been added? mr. belmont. at the top of page , sir, that is the information that should be included in the notification to headquarters as to who the individual is and the background information that was furnished to secret service so that we, too, can disseminate to secret service here. representative ford. under the new criteria would oswald's name have gone to the secret service automatically? mr. belmont. well, congressman, right now we are including all defectors automatically. now, the question whether oswald meets these criteria here as set forth is a question of judgment. as i say, right now we do furnish all defectors. representative ford. defectors are for the time being at least a special category other than what is set forth here unless for some other reason they would fall into one of these categories. mr. belmont. yes. mr. mccloy. do you under that category send forward all communists? mr. belmont. yes. mr. mccloy. all communists, yes. mr. dulles. mr. chairman, i wonder whether or not it would be wise for the record at this point to read into the record, in view of the importance of this, this paragraph which we are now discussing and which, as i understand it, contains the new definition of investigative cases? the chairman. yes; we can put it into the record. mr. dulles. mr. belmont, as i understand it, the new criteria are set forth in paragraph on page of the manual of instructions, section ; is that correct? mr. belmont. that is correct. mr. mccloy. which, as i counted, is the th page of the commission's exhibit no. ; is that right, mr. stern? mr. stern. that is right number of the exhibit. mr. mccloy. , and i think it is the th page. mr. dulles. for convenient reference i suggest that when this be included that we add the dates and the page numbers. mr. stern. i think the witness can do this immediately. the chairman. we will give a copy of it to the reporter and he may copy it and incorporate it later in the record. (paragraph reads as follows:) "other dissemination to secret service concerning security of the president. all investigative personnel should be alert for the identification of subversives, ultrarightists, racists, and fascists (_a_) possessing emotional instability or irrational behavior, (_b_) who have made threats of bodily harm against officials or employees of federal, state, or local government or officials of a foreign government, (_c_) who express or have expressed strong or violent anti-u.s. sentiments and who have been involved in bombing or bomb making or whose past conduct indicates tendencies toward violence, and (_d_) whose prior acts or statements depict propensity for violence and hatred against organized government." mr. dulles. do i understand you, mr. belmont, to say, as drafted you would not consider that defectors automatically fell under this paragraph , but it is your practice to notify the secret service about defectors? mr. belmont. we do notify secret service of any defectors coming to our attention. mr. dulles. and by defectors, i guess we mean here maybe a redefector, meaning those who have gone to russia and have come back or maybe those who have gone and not come back. mr. belmont. if they haven't come back---- mr. dulles. they are not a danger. mr. belmont. they are not within our cognizance and we don't notify secret service. mr. dulles. these would be defectors who have gone to the soviet union and who then come back to the united states and tried to defect while they were over there. mr. mccloy. not necessarily, not exclusively the soviet union, of course. mr. dulles. communist countries, i would say. representative ford. just to get an order of magnitude, how many are there? is this a sizable number? mr. belmont. i don't have a figure, mr. ford. you have had defectors in korea from the military. you have had defectors---- mr. mccloy. germany. mr. belmont. berlin. when these are military personnel they are within the cognizance of the military, so that it is very difficult for me to give you a figure. when we become interested is when they return to this country and warrant action by us from an internal security standpoint. as in the oswald case, we started our action based on newspaper publicity that he had attempted to or indicated his intention to, renounce his citizenship in moscow. but i do not have a figure because many of these people are members of the armed services and i would hesitate to give you an estimate. mr. stern. mr. belmont, do these terms "subversives, ultrarightists, racists, and fascists" have a particular meaning of art in fbi parlance? can you tell us how you use these terms in this regulation or what these mean to you and to your agents. mr. belmont. i will have to refer you to the dictionary, i think, mr. stern. a subversive is an individual who is active in the communist party or front groups associated with it or one of the other groups that we term subversive, such as the socialist workers party. the ultrarightists---- mr. dulles. socialist workers party is a trotskyite party, is it not? mr. belmont. yes, sir. the ultrarightists, i believe here we attempt to spell out those people who are so far to the right that they do not consider themselves subject to the law and the proper procedures, and take things into their own hands. the racists, i think, are--that speaks for itself, individuals who will go beyond the bounds of propriety in seeking their goals, and who adopt violence. the fascists---- mr. mccloy. i was wondering how you were going to define that one. mr. belmont. is to give you the opposite end of the spectrum of subversives. mr. dulles. do we have anarchists in this country at the present time? there used to be an old anarchist society in the old days. mr. belmont. that used to be, but it is dissolved. there is no organization. i venture to say we have individual anarchists at this time. mr. dulles. no organized anarchist organization. mr. belmont. no. mr. stern. mr. belmont, in view of the quite important considerations you mentioned before, the danger of interfering with individual liberty, would it be possible within your organization to have the agents recommend to headquarters here and have someone at a higher level examine the recommendation before it is made to the secret service? this is, as i understand it, a continuing program and not one that comes into effect only when the president schedules a trip. this would operate without respect to scheduled trips by the president. would that be possible? would it fit your operation? do you think it might help any? mr. belmont. well, what is your thought behind that, mr. stern? in other words, so that names of persons won't indiscriminately be sent on a local level? mr. stern. precisely. these categories are, after all, fairly gross. they use large terms which can mean different things to different people. the considerations you mention, i think, are quite real and important. would it help any to do something of the sort? mr. belmont. i think we will find that our agents are using good judgment in this matter. the danger involved in referring these matters to headquarters for a decision as to dissemination is the delay in time and, you will note, we stress the time element that when such information comes into the possession of our agents, immediate steps must be taken to transmit this information to secret service by the most expeditious means possible. this might be of assistance to you. this information which we send to secret service in the field is placed in a control file, a separate file in the field, and is subject, under instructions, to inspection by our inspectors as they visit our field offices to insure that this requirement is being carried out properly; and they will examine the type of material that is being sent over. each field office is thoroughly inspected about once a year, and that is one of the requirements that they go through this to make sure this instruction is being properly carried out. mr. mccloy. i have no further questions. i have some general questions i would like to get to at the end, but i have to leave early this afternoon. mr. rankin. i have one question i wanted to interject, mr. chairman, and that is as to statements, mr. belmont, about subversives, including persons who are members of communist front groups. you mean to say that that includes any person who is a member of a communist front group because, as you know, many leading citizens have been members of such groups. mr. belmont. now, mr. rankin, i wouldn't carry it by any means that far. it would be dependent upon the front group, the extent of activity in it, and the activities of the individual. by no means would we classify someone as a subversive who was connected with a front group by name or---- mr. dulles. by front groups you mean those on the attorney general's list; you are taking that as a criterion of a front group? mr. belmont. no, sir; not necessarily that, sir. there are other groups that we consider front groups. mr. dulles. i see. mr. belmont. i am glad you raised that because each case would have to be considered on its own individual merits as to what is the extent of the activity and the purpose and intent of the activity. mr. rankin. you recognize in the work in this field that there are many americans who are interested in certain causes and purposes and front groups in connection with them who are loyal americans, don't you? mr. belmont. i have no doubt of that whatsoever. mr. rankin. i just wanted to get that in the record. mr. belmont. i also know many loyal americans, unfortunately, who don't look behind some of these groups to determine their intents and purposes, and allow their names to be used where they would not otherwise do so if they took the time and trouble to check into what the organization was. mr. rankin. so you don't lump them all under the term "subversive," that is what i was trying to get at. mr. belmont. right. the chairman. i suppose some join before an organization is infiltrated, too. mr. belmont. that is correct, sir. the chairman. they find themselves in a mousetrap then. mr. belmont. that is correct, sir; that is right. mr. mccloy. in other words, you would expect your agents to exert some selection before they would send these names over to the secret service. mr. belmont. our agents use judgment in the pursuance of this work, and they would continue to use judgment in the selection of people who meet this criterion. otherwise if you carried this to the extreme you would get out of hand completely. so that there is judgment applied here and our agents are capable of applying the judgment. representative ford. what has been the reaction of the secret service to this greater flow of information that they have received? mr. belmont. they have taken it. there has been no official reaction, to my knowledge. representative ford. have they objected to the greater burden? mr. belmont. no, sir; i would like to say, i don't know whether you are going to cover this, mr. stern, that our relations with the secret service are excellent. we work closely together. as a matter of fact, since the assassination, at the request of mr. rowley, we have furnished agents to assist on occasion in the protection of the president, which is primarily a function of secret service, but as a cooperative gesture we have on a number of occasions made agents available at the request of mr. rowley. i think the figure runs to something like agents--yes, agents that we have made available. we do have a very close liaison with secret service both at the seat of government and in our field offices. we have a supervisor here at the seat of government whose duty it is to stay directly in touch with secret service, to cut redtape and produce results both for secret service and for the fbi; to see that the problems are handled immediately. he has direct access to mr. rowley, and we have on a number of occasions at the request of secret service, sent one of our agents with the secret service when the president travels abroad, particularly where we have a representative in the countries being visited, because our relations with the law enforcement officials in those countries have been built up over the years, and we are thus in a position to assist secret service in establishing the necessary security measures and the flow of information to serve their purpose. in addition, when the president travels abroad we alert all of our offices to advise us of any information which may pertain to the travel of the president, and we set up a supervisor back here to receive that information and cable it or get it immediately to our man who is accompanying the president when he makes this trip. this is done, this agent going with secret service is done, at the invitation and request of secret service. representative ford. agents of the fbi who have assisted since the assassination. did secret service make a specific request for their help in these instances? mr. belmont. yes; mr. rowley advised that he needed help, it was offered to him by mr. hoover, and when the president is going to visit a city and secret service does not have sufficient personnel in that particular city to cover what they consider is necessary, they need specialized help from us, they will make the request to us and we will authorize our local agent in charge to make those men, the designated number, available to the secret service representative, who then uses their services while the president is there. representative ford. i gather that prior to the assassination such requests, specific requests, had not come from secret service to the bureau. mr. belmont. no. there were never any such requests before. mr. stern. at the level at which the requests have been made so far, have they proved to be a difficult burden for the fbi? mr. belmont. mr. stern, any time that we have a pending caseload of something like , investigative matters, which is what we have, and our agents are assigned about to cases apiece across the country, ranging from matters of immediate urgency to matters which can be handled in due time, and whenever our agents are putting in an average of over hours overtime a day voluntarily, the loan of men will be felt. representative ford. . mr. belmont. i believe it was , sir. i think the letter says . mr. stern. on separate occasions. mr. belmont. yes. i do not wish to overplay this. we are not complaining. we do feel that at such time as secret service is able to increase its personnel or meet this problem within the organization that it is properly their problem. but meanwhile we are following this procedure and we are not complaining. mr. dulles. i had hoped, mr. chairman, that at some time while mr. belmont was here, we could ask him to just briefly define for us, going back to the assassination day, a clear definition of the respective functions of the fbi and the secret service prior to and immediately after the assassination. there seemed to have been at one time a little confusion there. naturally in a situation of this kind it always happens, but i am not absolutely clear in my mind as to---- mr. belmont. at the time of the assassination? mr. dulles. yes. just before, i mean what your responsibilities were just before the assassination, and just after as contrasted with the functions of the secret service. mr. belmont. the secret service has the responsibility for protecting the president and his family, and the vice president and so on. that is a basic responsibility. mr. dulles. and you have no auxiliary function to that---- mr. belmont. no, sir. mr. dulles. except to furnish names and suspects, as you have indicated. mr. belmont. that is correct. we have no function there. that is a primary responsibility and function of secret service. now, we do have what we have considered our responsibility, to furnish to secret service any indication of a threat to the president, and that we have done religiously. after the assassination the president ordered us into an investigation of the assassination which changed the picture as far as this particular case was concerned. mr. dulles. you mean president johnson, immediately after the assassination? mr. belmont. yes, sir. mr. dulles. and there was a period there, there was a period though, after the assassination and before president johnson took the oath of office--did this order come to you during that period or after he had taken the oath of office? mr. belmont. it was very rapid, probably within a day. mr. dulles. i see. it wasn't immediately after. mr. belmont. no. mr. dulles. it wasn't this period i am speaking of. mr. belmont. you see, mr. dulles, the federal government still has no jurisdiction over the assassination of the president. that was a murder and was within the province of the local police who immediately took hold of it and started the investigation. mr. dulles. i realize that. mr. belmont. and started the investigation and it was theirs. mr. dulles. you were only in there by courtesy. what you did was by courtesy of the local authorities. mr. belmont. yes, sir; we went to the dallas police department and immediately went into action because of what had happened, and there was no time for us to stand on priorities. but we felt we should be of the utmost assistance, and we sent men to the police department to assist in the interview and do anything else we could. this wasn't a time, of course, to sit back and say, "this isn't our job." mr. dulles. i understand. mr. belmont. yes. the chairman. mr. belmont, just one question. do you know of any legislation in recent years that might have been introduced in the congress to make an attack upon the president a federal offense? mr. belmont. i do know that there is legislation presently pending. the chairman. since the assassination? mr. belmont. since the assassination. the chairman. yes. but had it been considered in recent years? i know it had at the time of other assassinations, but so far as you know were there any recent legislation to that effect? mr. belmont. mr. chairman, i must plead ignorance. i haven't done research on it, and i just don't know. the chairman. yes. well, we can find that out very easily. representative ford. mr. chairman, just the other day in the house of representatives a bill was approved giving federal officials the right to take certain action when a chief of state from a foreign country was within the united states; a broadening of their authority when they had a suspicion or they had some reason to believe that an attack was being made on a foreign dignitary. at the time it went through the house i thought of the same question you just raised, and i wondered whether there were any specific legislative matters pending before any committee on this particular point. mr. belmont. i am sure there is a pending bill because my recollection is that it was called to our attention--i cannot pinpoint it for you--but i think there is pending legislation now in this matter. mr. mccloy. i noticed in some law review article recently reference to the fact that previous bills had been introduced but had gone into the wastebasket. the chairman. that is true. mr. mccloy. in respect of other incidents. the chairman. when the emotion died down. mr. mccloy. when the emotion died down, that is true. i have some further questions. the chairman. have you finished, mr. stern? mr. stern. i want to get one thing established that came up yesterday. mr. belmont, yesterday the commission was interested in determining, if possible, when agent hosty recorded the interviews that he had taken on october , november , and november . he wasn't certain, except that he thought it had been done after the assassination. have you caused a check to be made on that? mr. belmont. yes; we checked with our dallas office, and they do not have a specific record of when that information was recorded. mr. stern. was it recorded in substantially the same form in some contemporaneous communication? mr. belmont. yes; within a day or two, i think on november , if i recall correctly, the fact that hosty had talked to the neighbor of mrs. paine and had located marina oswald, was sent in by airtel. mr. stern. you might refer to commission exhibit , page , items and , just so the record is straight. mr. belmont. item is an airtel from the dallas office to the headquarters dated october , wherein hosty reported this interview that he had had with the neighbor of mrs. paine. on november the dallas office reported by airtel the results of his contact with mrs. paine on november , so that the results of his interviews were incorporated at that time, october , november , but the actual insert for the report was not prepared until some time later. to the best of hosty's recollection it was after the d and prior to december , but he was already on record by these airtels. mr. stern. thank you, mr. belmont. i have no further questions. the chairman. mr. mccloy. mr. mccloy. i have one or two questions. mr. belmont, you do know the charge has been made by some that oswald was what is called a secret agent. do you have any information whatever that would cause you to believe that oswald was or could have been an agent or an informant of the fbi? mr. belmont. i have covered that in some considerable detail, mr. mccloy, and i will make a positive statement that oswald was not, never was, an agent or an informant of the fbi. mr. mccloy. in the course of your investigation do you have any reason to make you believe that he was an agent of any other country? mr. belmont. no, sir; we have no reason to believe that he was an agent of any other country. mr. mccloy. or any other agency of the united states? mr. belmont. or any other agency of the united states. mr. mccloy. you said this morning, i believe, or at least i guess mr. hosty said, that the assassination of the president and any leads in connection with it are still of constant concern to the fbi. do you feel there are any areas as of the present time that you feel at the present time require or justify further investigation other than routine checkups that have not already been undertaken? mr. belmont. no, sir; frankly, i don't. i will say that from the requests we have received from the commission, you have explored this most thoroughly. we do not have any unexplored areas in this investigation that should be explored. there are some pending requests that you have made, and we are running them out as rapidly as we can. mr. mccloy. maybe this isn't a fair question to ask you, but, after all, you have had a long record of criminal investigation, and you have had a long exposure to investigation in this case. as a result of your investigation do you feel that there is any credible evidence thus far which would support a conclusion or an opinion that the death of the president was the result of a conspiracy or anything other than the act of a single individual? mr. belmont. no, sir; we have no evidence, and i could support no conclusion that this was other than an act of oswald. mr. mccloy. now, the investigation does lead you to the conclusion that he was the president's assassin? mr. belmont. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. did you ever at any time have any connection whatever--you or the agency--have anything to do with the walker, general walker, case? mr. belmont. no, sir; that was a matter handled by the dallas police. i am drawing on my recollection of it now, but, as i recall it, after the incident, we offered to examine the bullets that were recovered---- mr. mccloy. bullets. mr. belmont. and the police apparently wanted to retain them, so that we did not conduct the examination of the bullets until subsequent to the assassination itself. mr. mccloy. until recently. mr. belmont. no; we had no connection with it, with that investigation. mr. mccloy. in your investigation of the president's assassination, did you have occasion, after the event, to make an investigation of ruby's background or ruby's relationship to oswald? mr. belmont. yes, sir; we went into that very thoroughly. mr. mccloy. have we got all your reports on that? mr. belmont. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. have you come to any conclusions or opinions in regard to ruby and his connection with oswald, if any? mr. belmont. the reports, of course, speak for themselves. but in summation, we did not come up with anything of a solid nature, that is anything that would stand up to indicate that there was any association between ruby and oswald. we had numerous allegations which we ran out extensively and carefully, but there is nothing, no information, that would stand up to show there was an association between them. mr. mccloy. maybe this is in the record, but do you--by reason of your very close association with this investigation, i venture to ask this question--do you, from your knowledge of the investigation find--was there any evidence in regard to ruby's propensity for violence before this shooting took place in the police headquarters in dallas? mr. belmont. did we have any information of that character and of that nature? mr. mccloy. yes; i am not talking before it happened, but as a result of your investigation did you turn up any other indications of any violence on the part of ruby? mr. belmont. i hesitate to attempt to evaluate the information that we gathered from hundreds and hundreds of people that we talked to during the investigation of ruby after the assassination. i just don't feel that i am in a position to render a judgment as to his character or his impulsiveness, the degree of impulsiveness, whether he was capable---- mr. mccloy. whether he was prone to violent action. mr. belmont. i just don't feel really competent. i have no doubt that a conclusion can be drawn from reports; of course, that was one of the basic issues at the trial. representative ford. was there any evidence that the fbi found to the effect that ruby was a communist? mr. belmont. no, sir. representative ford. none whatsoever? mr. belmont. no, sir. representative ford. was there any evidence found by the fbi to the effect that ruby was connected with in any way whatsoever so-called rightist groups? mr. belmont. no, sir; i do not recall anything of that nature. mr. mccloy. no association that you know of as a result of the investigation of ruby with any foreign government or agency of a foreign government? mr. belmont. no, sir; you understand, you are asking me questions, and i am replying on the basis of my best recollection, but i am giving you an answer from my knowledge of the case. mr. mccloy. that is what we were seeking, no more than that, because your impressions would be valuable. mr. belmont. the reason i say that there may be someone we interviewed who made a statement about ruby and it was run out, and it was found to be false. congressman ford, you asked me if he was a communist. i would say we have no evidence of that. mr. mccloy. do you feel that in view of the evidence that oswald was a defector, that he engaged in this fair play for cuba business, that he lied in his communications with the fbi, that mr. hosty should have been alerted by locating oswald in the school book depository early in november, that he should have been alerted to informing the secret service of that? mr. belmont. no, sir; i do not. you must take this matter in its proper context. i pointed out to you previously that this man came back from russia; he indicated that he had learned his lesson, was disenchanted with russia, and had a renewed concept--i am paraphrasing, a renewed concept--of the american free society. we talked to him twice. he likewise indicated he was disenchanted with russia. we satisfied ourselves that we had met our requirement, namely to find out whether he had been recruited by soviet intelligence. the case was closed. we again exhibited interest on the basis of these contacts with the worker, fair play for cuba committee, which are relatively inconsequential. his activities for the fair play for cuba committee in new orleans, we knew, were not of real consequence as he was not connected with any organized activity there. the interview with him in jail is not significant from the standpoint of whether he had a propensity for violence. mr. mccloy. that is the quigley interview you are talking about? mr. belmont. yes; it was a self-serving interview. the visits with the soviet embassy were evidently for the purpose of securing a visa, and he had told us during one of the interviews that he would probably take his wife back to soviet russia some time in the future. he had come back to dallas. hosty had established that he had a job, he was working, and had told mrs. paine that when he got the money he was going to take an apartment when the baby was old enough, he was going to take an apartment, and the family would live together. he gave evidence of settling down. nowhere during the course of this investigation or the information that came to us from other agencies was there any indication of a potential for violence on his part. consequently, there was no basis for hosty to go to secret service and advise them of oswald's presence. hosty was alert, as was the dallas office, to furnish information to secret service on the occasion of the president's visit. it is my recollection that hosty actually participated in delivering some material to secret service himself, and helped prepare a memorandum on another matter that was sent over there. so that most certainly the office was alert. the agent in charge had alerted his agents, even on the morning of the visit, as he had previously done a week or days before the visit. so that, in answer to your question, i cannot even through the process of going back and seeking to apply this against what happened, justifiably say that hosty should have given this information under the existing conditions and with the history of this matter, that he was in a position to give it to the secret service. now, most certainly---- mr. mccloy. we wish he had. mr. belmont. of course. representative ford. mr. chairman, i have a call from the floor of the house. i wonder if i could ask mr. belmont a question. the chairman. yes, indeed. representative ford. in response to a question by mr. mccloy, you categorically said that federal bureau of investigation under no circumstances had employed oswald as an informant, as an agent or in any other way whatsoever. mr. belmont. yes, sir. representative ford. you would be in a position to know specifically that information? mr. belmont. yes, sir. representative ford. you also said, as i recall, that you had found no credible information or evidence thus far that oswald was connected in any way whatsoever with another country as an agent. is that about what you said or do you wish to reaffirm it in another way? mr. belmont. i will affirm what you said. representative ford. there is a difference, however, between your knowledge as to whether the fbi had hired oswald, you can be very categorical about that. mr. belmont. that is correct. representative ford. you can only---- mr. belmont. say based on the evidence that we have or which developed or all information that we received, there was no indication that oswald was in any way connected or within the service of a foreign government. representative ford. but there is a difference in the way you can answer those two questions. mr. belmont. there is a difference, yes; there is a difference because in the one case we know, in the other case we rely on all the information and evidence available. representative ford. but as far as a foreign government is concerned, you only know what you have been able to find out? mr. belmont. that is correct, sir. representative ford. there is always the possibility in the second case, involving a foreign government, that something might come up at some other time. mr. belmont. there is always the possibility. we have no indication of it. there is always the possibility; yes, sir. representative ford. but you cannot be as categorical about the future in the second case as you were in the first case. mr. belmont. yes, sir; you are right. the chairman. are there any other questions? mr. dulles. do you have some more? mr. mccloy. i think i have got all the questions i wanted to ask. (at this point in the proceedings, representative ford leaves the hearing room.) mr. dulles. i have two or three questions. as you know, mr. belmont, there have been a wide variety of rumors that have been spread abroad very particularly with regard to the assassination. i have before me, just received last night, a book just being published in england, it is coming out in the next day or , called "who killed kennedy," by thomas g. buchanan, published in london by secker and warburg. i have not had an opportunity yet to read the book. i have read a good deal of the background material on which it is based. i would like to ask though when this book is available to you, and we will make a copy available to you and see that you get one promptly, whether you would have the bureau read this, an appropriate person in the bureau familiar with the case or yourself, and possibly give us your views with regard to certain of the allegations here within your particular competence. mr. belmont. as i understand it, mr. dulles, this is probably a compilation of the articles that he wrote in the french press. mr. dulles. express; yes. mr. belmont. which, i believe, we sent over to the commission as we received them. mr. dulles. that is correct. mr. belmont. and from my recollection of perusing those articles, they are filled with false statements, innuendoes, incorrect conclusions, misinformation, and certainly what i would term false journalism. in other words, he has stated as fact or as a correct conclusion many things which the commission's investigation has disproved completely. we will be glad to read the book and to furnish you with a general comment on it. but to take down each statement in there and go into it would probably result in a critique of pages. mr. dulles. we do not want that. i don't think we need that. mr. belmont. where actually many of these allegations have already been resolved by the commission, i am sure. we will be glad to read it and give you a---- mr. dulles. i think that would be useful for the commission to have, mr. chairman. do you agree? the chairman. very well; yes. if you find any factual matters in there that contradict your findings, we would expect you to call it to our attention. mr. belmont. most certainly, sir. the chairman. but otherwise i don't think we want a review of the book. that is your idea, is it? mr. dulles. not a review of the book, but if there are allegations there, any evidence you can factually deny, that would be helpful to have it. mr. mccloy. do you have any record of buchanan? do you know anything about buchanan's background? mr. belmont. no, sir; i do not recall. mr. dulles. i wish you would check. mr. belmont. we can send you a letter. the chairman. we have the record. mr. mccloy. he seems to be very much ivy league, lawrenceville school and yale. mr. dulles. he was at one time, i believe, he admitted to being a communist at one time. he was at one time employed by the washington star, i am advised, and i believe, according to the information i have, that he was terminated by the star some years ago. mr. belmont. i thought he had been in touch with the commission. the chairman. he came in, he did come in here, and made a statement which we have recorded. his testimony wasn't taken. he just walked in off the street. mr. dulles. i have one or two more questions, mr. chairman. i believe, mr. belmont, that you probably have furnished us already with information with regard to any contacts that oswald might have had, individuals whom he knew, persons who might have been accused of being accomplices of his, but if there is anybody there or any persons in your file whom oswald knew who have not been communicated to us, we would certainly like to have them to be sure we have looked into that field exhaustively, anybody who, according to your records, oswald knew. mr. belmont. i am sure we have explored that fully, and we have reported it to the commission fully. mr. dulles. all right; good. mr. belmont. yes, sir. mr. dulles. in view of your deep study of the case, have you reached any views of your own or are there any views of the bureau, as to oswald's motivation in the act that he committed? mr. belmont. again i don't feel competent to give you an answer. there is an indication from the exploration of his background that he wanted to be somebody. he wanted to be known as someone. whether this caused him to do this terrible thing i don't know. i think if it were possible to peer into oswald's mind, that would really be the only way you could get your question answered. mr. dulles. have you and the bureau made any comparative study of the various assassination attempts and assassinations of other presidents and people in high authority in this government to see whether any pattern at all runs through these various attempts other than attempts where there is clearly a plot, as in the case of the attack on president truman, and probably also in the case of president lincoln? i am thinking chiefly of the assassination of president mckinley and the attempted assassination of president-elect roosevelt in . mr. belmont. no, sir; we have not made a study of that nature. i would imagine that secret service has made a study. mr. dulles. they have made a study. i didn't know whether you had made one also. mr. belmont. no, sir; we have not. mr. dulles. that is all i have, mr. chairman. the chairman. mr. belmont, i have here in my hand a sheet that appeared on the newsstands over the weekend. it is supposed to be the national enquirer. i believe it is out of new york, and it contains a page and a third about the assassination of the president and certain actions of the fbi, and so forth, and for the record i should like to read a portion of it and merely ask you if, in your opinion---- mr. belmont. all right, sir. the chairman. and with your knowledge there is any truth to any part of it. you, of course, are acquainted with that paper. mr. belmont. no, sir; i am not. in fact, someone told me it was, it came from, the philadelphia inquirer, and i was shocked that something like that would be in that paper. i found it was not the philadelphia inquirer. (discussion off the record.) the chairman. i think, in view of the relationship you have had in this whole matter, i would like to have your testimony in the record on it. mr. belmont. very good, sir. the chairman. there is no date on this paper, and i am told it appeared in three different days in three different formats with different headlines, but the same item. it is said to be by john henshaw, enquirer washington bureau chief. "washington--the hottest story making the rounds here is that the u.s. justice department prevented the arrest of lee harvey oswald and jack ruby before the assassination of president john f. kennedy. oswald and the man who killed him, ruby, were suspected of being partners in crime months before the president's death. "the incredible details of the story are so explosive that officials won't even answer 'no comment' when queried about it. but the story being discussed by top-level government officials reveals: " . that the justice department deliberately kept oswald and ruby out of jail before the assassination. " . that dallas cops suspected oswald of being the gunman and ruby the paymaster in a plot to murder former maj. gen. edwin a. walker-- months before the president was assassinated. " . that the u.s. central intelligence agency was using ruby to recruit commandoes for raids against castro's cuba. to prevent this explosive information from being disclosed, the cia asked the justice department to step in and stop the dallas police from arresting jack ruby, as well as oswald. "a top-secret document--a letter signed by a high official of the justice department--was sent in april from the dallas police department to dallas chief of police jesse e. curry requesting the dallas police not to arrest oswald and ruby in connection with the attempted slaying of general walker. "after a sniper shot at, but missed, general walker in dallas, april , , dallas police suspected that oswald was the sniper and ruby the payoff man. "the cops were set to arrest the pair. but they never got the chance because of the heavy pressure brought to bear by the justice department. and so oswald and ruby were allowed to remain free. and months later, on last november in dallas, oswald was able to kill the president of the united states. "the top-secret document--a copy of it is reportedly in the hands of the presidential commission investigating the assassination--bares a web of intrigue that involves the federal bureau of investigation, along with the justice department and the central intelligence agency. "it is so politically explosive that the presidential commission, headed by supreme court chief justice earl warren, has even withheld it from one of its own members, senator richard russell (d., ga.). "it is feared that senator russell, who leads the south in the fight against the civil rights bill, might use the document as a weapon against the justice department and its chief, attorney general robert kennedy, a leader in the fight for civil rights. "the document--requesting the cops not to arrest ruby and oswald--contradicts the fbi report on the assassination and the subsequent murder of oswald." my question is, do you have any information that would lead you to believe that any of those allegations are true? mr. belmont. my answer, sir, is that that is utter fantastic nonsense, and i have no information to indicate that any of the allegations are true. the chairman. i think we had better mark this and introduce it in evidence. there is much more to the article, but it is explanatory of this, but i thought that was sufficiently a direct allegation that we ought to note it in the testimony. so will you give that a number, mr. stern. mr. stern. it will be numbered . the chairman. . it is introduced in evidence as no. . mr. stern. may we also have admitted, mr. chief justice, exhibit no. , the letter of march , , which mr. belmont has identified. the chairman. it may be admitted under that number. (the documents referred to were marked for identification as commission exhibits nos. and and were received in evidence.) the chairman. is there anything further, gentlemen? mr. mccloy. may i suggest that we get a copy of the paper which does have the date on it. i forget what date it was. mr. belmont. mr. rankin, i understand you have sent it over to us, so we will be glad to answer your letter. the chairman. well, mr. belmont, we appreciate your cooperation, and we thank you for your courtesy. (whereupon, at : p.m., the president's commission recessed.) _wednesday, may , _ testimony of lt. jack revill the president's commission met at a.m. on may , , at maryland avenue ne., washington, d.c. present were chief justice earl warren, chairman; representative gerald r. ford; and allen w. dulles, members. also present were j. lee rankin, general counsel; norman redlich, assistant counsel; arlen specter, assistant counsel; and charles murray, observer. the chairman. lieutenant revill, the purpose of today's hearing is to hear your testimony and that of detective v. j. brian with particular regard to alleged conversation with special agent james p. hosty, jr., of the federal bureau of investigation, claimed to have occurred on november , , in the afternoon, and also concerning the facts surrounding the discussion of commission exhibits and . what are those--those are the affidavits? mr. rankin. that is his affidavit and detective brian's. the chairman. those are the affidavits that you made in that regard. would you please rise and raise your right hand and be sworn? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before this commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth so help you god? lieutenant revill. i do, sir. the chairman. mr. rankin will conduct the examination. mr. rankin. lieutenant revill, will you state your name and place of residence for the record, please? mr. revill. my name is jack revill. i reside at madowics, dallas, tex. mr. rankin. do you have an official connection with the police department of dallas? mr. revill. yes, sir; i do. mr. rankin. what is that? mr. revill. i am presently a lieutenant of police of the dallas police department. mr. rankin. how long have you occupied that position? mr. revill. i was promoted to lieutenant june , . mr. rankin. do you have any particular area of responsibility? mr. revill. yes, sir; i am presently in charge of the criminal intelligence section. mr. rankin. have you been in charge of that section since november of ? mr. revill. yes, sir; i have. mr. rankin. what are the functions of your work in that job? mr. revill. my unit--our primary responsibility is to investigate crimes of an organized nature, subversive activities, racial matters, labor racketeering, and to do anything that the chief might desire. we work for the chief of police. i report to a captain who is in charge of the special service bureau. mr. rankin. who is that? mr. revill. capt. pat gannaway. mr. rankin. how long have you reported to him? mr. revill. in my present capacity? mr. rankin. yes. mr. revill. since i have been assigned to the criminal intelligence section. mr. rankin. so that was for all times since and on november , ? mr. revill. yes, sir; this is true. mr. rankin. do you know james p. hosty, jr.? mr. revill. yes, sir; i do. mr. rankin. how long have you known him? mr. revill. i have known jim, mr. hosty, since , when i took over the intelligence section. mr. rankin. did you see him on november ? mr. revill. yes, sir; i did. mr. rankin. where. mr. revill. in the basement of the city hall. mr. rankin. just before you saw special agent hosty, where had you been? mr. revill. i had been at the texas school book depository. mr. rankin. what did you do there? mr. revill. we conducted a systematic search of the building, evacuated the people working in the building, and took names, addresses, and phone numbers of all of these people before they were permitted to leave. mr. rankin. was anyone working with you there? mr. revill. yes, sir. mr. rankin. who? mr. revill. numerous people. mr. rankin. i see. was detective brian with you there? mr. revill. yes, sir. i had taken detective brian with me from the trade mart, dallas trade mart, upon hearing of the shots being fired at mr. kennedy. i took detective brian and two other officers assigned to my unit, detective r. w. westphal and detective tarver, o. j. tarver. mr. rankin. how did you come back to the police department? mr. revill. by automobile. mr. rankin. by car? mr. revill. yes, sir. mr. rankin. was anyone with you? mr. revill. yes, sir, i had detectives brian, tarver, and westphal. mr. rankin. they were all in the car with you? mr. revill. yes, sir. mr. rankin. and which way did you enter the building? mr. revill. the main street ramp into the basement of the city hall. mr. rankin. about what time of the day? mr. revill. it must have been about : , : . mr. rankin. all of these officers were with you? mr. revill. yes, sir. mr. rankin. where did you see special agent hosty? mr. revill. if i might explain that, i followed mr. hosty into the basement of the city hall. he drove into the basement, parked his car, i did the same, and mr. hosty departed from his car, ran over to where i was standing, detective brian and i. the other two officers, westphal and tarver, as well as i recall, had remained in the rear talking to some other officers. i don't know who they were. at that time everything was mass confusion, and we were all upset. mr. rankin. will you explain to the commission where you parked the car with reference to the point where you saw agent hosty? mr. revill. i got out of my car, and we have two attendants assigned to the basement, two negro attendants, and one of these individuals parked my vehicle for me, i don't know where he parked it. but as i got out of the car, mr. hosty ran toward me---- mr. rankin. now, about the parking, excuse me. mr. revill. yes, sir. mr. rankin. is that a part of the basement area of the police department? mr. revill. yes, sir; it is. mr. rankin. all right; proceed. mr. revill. and mr. hosty ran over to me and he says, "jack"--now as i recall these words--"a communist killed president kennedy." i said, "what?" he said, "lee oswald killed president kennedy." i said, "who is lee oswald?" he said, "he is in our communist file. we knew he was here in dallas." at that time hosty and i started walking off, and brian, as well as i recall, sort of stayed back, and as we got onto the elevator or just prior to getting on the elevator mr. hosty related that they had information that this man was capable of this, and at this i blew up at him, and i said, "jim"---- mr. rankin. what did he say in regard to his being capable? mr. revill. this was it. they had--"we had information that this man was capable"---- mr. rankin. of what? mr. revill. of committing this assassination. this is what i understood him to say. mr. rankin. are those his exact words? mr. revill. as well as i recall. give him the benefit of the doubt; i might have misunderstood him. but i don't believe i did, because the part about him being in dallas, and the fact that he was a suspected communist, i understand by the rules of the attorney general they cannot tell us this, but the information about him being capable, i felt that we had taken a part in the security measures for mr. kennedy, and if such, if such information was available to another law enforcement agency, i felt they should have made it known to all of us, and i asked hosty where he was going at that time. by this time we were on the elevator and he said he was going up to homicide and robbery to tell captain fritz the same thing. i said, "do you know captain fritz?" and he said he had never met him. i said, "all right, i will take you up and introduce you to captain fritz." so detective brian and i and hosty went to the third floor of the city hall and went to captain fritz' office, the homicide and robbery bureau. we didn't see captain fritz, he may or may not have been there. his office door was closed. mr. dulles. what time of the day, could you give me the approximate time? mr. revill. between : and o'clock, and i have the reason for saying this because of the typing of this report here. our secretary got off at o'clock. mr. dulles. and chief curry had not yet returned, had he? mr. revill. i don't know where he was. mr. dulles. you didn't know about that? mr. revill. no, sir. mr. rankin. did you say anything about this to captain fritz? mr. revill. i did not talk to captain fritz, as i said, i didn't see him. i introduced mr. hosty to lieutenant ted wells, who is one of the lieutenants assigned to the homicide and robbery bureau and also present at that time was another special agent, mr. bookhout, and hosty, there was confusion within this office, so brian and i, after introducing mr. hosty to wells, left and went back to the special service bureau office. mr. rankin. and you didn't say anything to the inspector about it? mr. revill. the inspector? mr. rankin. lieutenant wells. mr. revill. no, sir; i did not. mr. rankin. you didn't tell him this important information? mr. revill. hosty was going up to tell him the same thing. mr. rankin. did he tell you that? mr. revill. yes, sir; he told me that. mr. rankin. and hosty told you then that he was going up to tell him that they knew he was capable of being the assassin? mr. revill. yes, sir; being at that time i was out of touch with everything, being in the building, i had put no connection between the shooting of tippit and the president. mr. rankin. did you know that oswald had been arrested? mr. revill. no, sir; at that time i did not. mr. rankin. you just knew about the someone by the name of lee, didn't you? mr. revill. yes, sir; lee. and this was told to me by a colored employee of the school book depository. myself and lieutenant frank dyson took charge of the search of the building and we must have had or men in the building assisting in this search. i talked to a negro---- mr. dulles. were you in charge of that? mr. revill. yes, sir; i was in charge of that phase of the search. i talked to a negro by the name of givens, and we had handled this person in the past for marijuana violations and i recognized him and in talking to him i asked him if he had been on the sixth floor, and as well as i recall, and detective brian was present at this same time he said, yes, that he had observed mr. lee, over by this window. well, i asked him who mr. lee was, he said, "it is a white boy." he didn't know his full name. so, i turned this givens individual over to one of our negro detectives and told him to take him to captain fritz for interrogation, and while going to the city hall, or the police station i passed this detective and givens, and they came into the homicide and robbery bureau shortly after hosty and i did, so i am sure captain fritz did talk to mr. givens. mr. rankin. when did you learn that oswald had been arrested? mr. revill. i really don't know, sir. because time, we were all shocked that this thing had happened in our city and i personally felt that maybe a sense of responsibility, maybe we could have done more to prevent this thing. i just don't know when i heard that he had been arrested. mr. rankin. did you know it by the time you went to lieutenant wells' office? mr. revill. no, sir; i did not. he may have been in the office at that time. mr. rankin. you didn't know that oswald was already in the police department? mr. revill. no, sir; i did not. i had been in this building since word came of the shots being fired until about : , : , and at that time i decided that my unit could possibly do more at our office where we kept all of our files, cataloging these people, the suspects that were running through my mind at that time. so, i was, i put out a call for all of the intelligence unit personnel to meet me at the office and i got no reply to this because they were all up in the special service bureau. we had been assigned to the trade mart, and two or three of my officers had taken into custody four or five of these picket carriers, and we did this more for protection than anything else because after the word came of the assassination, well, i am afraid they would have been mobbed, and they were all up in the special service bureau booking these prisoners at the time, and i decided we would stop by the special service bureau office, to report back to my captain and see if there was something we could do there. and as i pulled into the basement this conversation took place with mr. hosty. mr. rankin. and the particular words about oswald being capable of being an assassin those were told you by agent hosty in the elevator? mr. revill. no, sir; either just outside the elevator and as we got on. he never mentioned this again because i guess i lost my temper at him for withholding this type of information. mr. rankin. i see. did you do anything about losing your temper, did you say anything? mr. revill. no; jim hosty and i are friends, and this has hurt me that i have involved hosty into this thing, because he is a good agent, he is one of the agents there that we can work with; that has been most cooperative in the past, and i worked with him just like he is one of us. mr. rankin. you went to the third floor on the elevator? mr. revill. yes, sir. mr. rankin. who else went with you? mr. revill. detective brian and hosty, the elevator was--had several people on it. i don't recall who they were. mr. rankin. was detective brian on that elevator? mr. revill. yes, sir; he was. mr. rankin. at that same time? mr. revill. he went to the third floor with me. mr. rankin. and you are sure agent hosty was on the elevator with you? mr. revill. yes, sir; he was. mr. rankin. and you are sure you were on the elevator? mr. revill. yes, sir. mr. rankin. now, will you tell us exactly what you said to hosty and also what he said to you? mr. revill. after hearing about the information that they were purported to have had---- mr. rankin. have you told us all the information that hosty told you? mr. revill. as well as i recall; yes, sir. mr. rankin. now, did you say anything to him about it? mr. revill. yes, sir. mr. rankin. what? mr. revill. i asked him why he had not told us this, and the best, my recollection is that he said he couldn't. now, what he meant by that i don't know. because in the past our relations had been such that this type of information, it surprised me they had not, if they had such information he had not brought it or hadn't made it available to us. mr. rankin. and you are certain you went up there on the elevator together? mr. revill. yes, sir; took him to the third floor and introduced him to lieutenant wells. mr. rankin. are you sure you didn't go up the stairs together. mr. revill. no, sir; we went to the third floor on the elevator. mr. rankin. you are positive? mr. revill. yes, sir; because we caught the elevator in the basement, and there would have been no reason to walk up the stairs. mr. rankin. if agent hosty said you went up the stairs rapidly together, that would be untrue? mr. revill. yes, sir; this would be untrue. mr. dulles. did you go in that same driveway that the car went in that was to take oswald out? mr. revill. yes, sir. mr. dulles. that driveway; and you took that elevator right to the left as you went in there? mr. revill. no, sir; we go straight into the doors into the elevator that goes up to the third floor. mr. dulles. yes. mr. revill. third and fourth floor. representative ford. may i ask a question to reconstruct this a bit? both detective brian and yourself came in one car? mr. revill. yes, sir. representative ford. and you had two other officers with you? mr. revill. yes, sir. representative ford. more or less the same time mr. hosty came in? mr. revill. we followed mr. hosty into the basement. mr. dulles. each in a car? mr. revill. yes, sir; he was in a car and we were in mine. representative ford. your first contact with mr. hosty was in the basement there? mr. revill. yes, sir. representative ford. what did he say there? mr. revill. he come running up to me, and he said, "jack, a communist killed president kennedy." i said, "what? what are you talking about?" he said, "lee harvey oswald killed president kennedy," and at that i said "who is lee harvey oswald?" and then he told me about him having him in their security files, and then that, "we had information that he was capable of this." by "we" i assumed he meant the federal bureau of investigation. representative ford. then brian, hosty, and yourself walked to the elevator? mr. revill. yes, sir. representative ford. and the three of you took the elevator up to the third floor? mr. revill. yes, sir. mr. dulles. it is about feet as i remember it. mr. revill. no, sir; it is more than that. mr. dulles. it is a different elevator. it is not the one that take prisoners down? mr. revill. no, sir; it is the swinging doors, you go through the swinging doors. mr. dulles. it is another elevator? mr. revill. yes, sir. representative ford. at what point in the sequence did you blow up, as you say? mr. revill. when he told me about the capability. by blowing up---- representative ford. was that standing in the basement near the car or was it over toward the elevator? mr. revill. we were walking over toward the elevator during this conversation and as far as blowing up, this is semantics. i wanted to know why they had not given us this information. representative ford. what is his reaction to that? mr. revill. "we couldn't." i do not know what he meant by that. representative ford. when you use words like "we couldn't" that "oswald was a communist" this is what i am trying to find out. you mean these are the precise words he said or are these your interpretations of what he said? mr. revill. the time involved it could be my interpretation, to give him the benefit of the doubt, because as i said hosty is a friend of mine, and the last thing i wanted to do was to cause this man any trouble, because of our relations in the past. representative ford. have you ever had any doubt in the interval between that time and now that what your recollection is is accurate or inaccurate, fair or unfair? mr. revill. as far as i am concerned i have; this report is honest, and it was made within an hour after he made the thing. and since this assassination i have gone over in my mind could i have misunderstood him. i sometimes wish or hoped that i have. but this is in essence what he said to me. it might not be exactly the "we's" the "i's" but in essence it is what mr. hosty said. representative ford. at one point as i recall your testimony, you said hosty said that oswald was a communist. a few minutes after that testimony i think you said that hosty suspected he was a communist. now, did you say that deliberately or did you just---- mr. revill. no, sir; if i said that i was wrong. representative ford. was that just confusion? mr. revill. as i mentioned earlier he come hurrying up to me and he said, "jack, a communist killed the president." i said, "what?" he said, "lee harvey oswald, a communist killed the president," and then he went into the fact that they had known he was there, and then at the conclusion of our, not the conclusion because we continued to discuss this thing going up on the elevator, he made the statement that they had information that he was capable of this. he might have said probably or possibly capable of it, i don't recall, because in dallas that day, the town died, and i know i was sick that this thing happened in my city, and i felt that maybe we could have done something else to prevent it. mr. dulles. you stress the word "capable", that sticks in your mind, does it? mr. revill. yes, sir. mr. dulles. he didn't say might have done it? mr. revill. no, sir; capable. mr. dulles. normally would information of this kind have passed to you directly from the fbi or through the secret service in the event--of course, there hadn't been other presidential visits, i guess, so there was no precedent but i was wondering in the case of a presidential visit would it normally have come to you directly from the secret service rather than directly from the fbi? mr. revill. well, in the past mr. kennedy had visited mr. rayburn there and this information had never been made known to us and usually the information we got from the fbi and you have got to realize the relations are good, was on a personal basis, working with mr. hosty and the other agent assigned to their security section and men assigned to their criminal section, it was a share and share alike thing because i have men, and we just augmented their force really with the information we gathered. mr. dulles. had you had a meeting with the fbi, a general meeting, to go over security problems prior to this time, prior to the president's visit? mr. revill. no, sir; i personally had taken part in no meetings. mr. dulles. with the fbi? mr. revill. with the fbi. mr. dulles. or secret service? mr. revill. or secret service. mr. dulles. why was this? mr. revill. this i do not know. this was handled at a higher level. it is my understanding meetings were held and my captain who is my immediate supervisor was involved in these meetings but---- mr. dulles. you were not present at these meetings? mr. revill. no, sir; i was not. mr. dulles. but the meetings you think were held? mr. revill. this is my understanding; yes, sir. mr. rankin. lieutenant revill, have you seen the original of that exhibit ? mr. revill. yes, sir; i have. mr. rankin. is that the report that you referred to when you were answering questions? mr. revill. yes, sir; i brought a copy. mr. rankin. and congressman ford? mr. revill. yes, sir; there was just one copy made of this and this is the copy i retained. the original went to chief curry. and on this, chief curry called me and he would like me to swear that this was a true and correct statement, and this i did. mr. rankin. by that you are referring to the statement sworn to and subscribed before me this th day of april ? mr. revill. yes, sir. mr. rankin. now, will you tell us how you happened to make this report, exhibit ? mr. revill. why i made the report? mr. rankin. how did it happen that you made it? mr. revill. after mr. hosty had related these circumstances to me, and after taking him to the third floor, i reported this incident to my captain, captain gannaway. mr. rankin. when was this? mr. revill. within minutes after i left mr. hosty at the homicide and robbery bureau. mr. rankin. what did you say to him? mr. revill. i told him what had happened, what had transpired. mr. rankin. just describe what you said to him. mr. revill. about meeting mr. hosty in the basement? mr. rankin. just tell us what you said. mr. revill. about mr. hosty, following mr. hosty in the basement, that he came up to me, and stated that a communist had killed the president, and that a lee harvey oswald, they had him in their security files, and that they knew he was in dallas, and that he was capable, that they had information he was capable of this. to this---- mr. rankin. did you say anything about what you have said? mr. revill. no, sir; i don't recall. i might have. mr. rankin. you don't recall that at all? mr. revill. no, sir; i don't. mr. rankin. did your captain ask you whether you said anything about that? mr. revill. i don't recall him asking me that; no, sir. mr. rankin. did he say anything to you about it? mr. revill. yes, sir; he did. he told me to put this on paper. mr. rankin. that is all he said? mr. revill. yes, sir; and to which i told him that i hated to do that because of mr. hosty, that he might have been stating a personal opinion. he said, "you put it on paper and give it to me and i will take it to chief curry," and this i did. within minutes to an hour after the thing happened. mr. rankin. neither one of you said anything about this being strange that agent hosty would say anything like this? mr. revill. i do not recall, sir. mr. rankin. you didn't say anything like that? mr. revill. i don't recall making such a statement. mr. rankin. and he didn't say anything like that to you that you recalled? mr. revill. no, sir. representative ford. did you write this out in longhand? mr. revill. yes, sir; and then i dictated it to one of the stenos in the office. and she was to, this is what i mentioned earlier the time element, she was to, she got off at o'clock and this was before she went home for the day. mr. dulles. this is on november you are talking about? mr. revill. yes, sir. mr. dulles. did you sign it on november or at a later date? mr. revill. the same time. mr. dulles. but you swore to it on the th day of april ? mr. revill. yes, sir. mr. dulles. you swore that was your signature? mr. revill. yes, sir; at the time i was hoping it would never come up. mr. rankin. why? mr. revill. because of the relations that we had with the bureau. mr. rankin. you thought this was a bad thing for the bureau? mr. revill. yes, sir; i did. mr. rankin. for them to admit to you that they knew---- mr. revill. not the admitting but to withhold it. mr. rankin. to withhold the information? mr. revill. yes. mr. rankin. they thought this man was capable of being an assassin? mr. revill. yes, sir. mr. rankin. and yet you say that agent hosty just blurted that out? mr. revill. yes, sir; he did. mr. rankin. have you told us all that you remember about it? mr. revill. yes, sir; all that i remember. mr. rankin. did you make this---- mr. dulles. could i ask a question that comes right along with that? did he say anything to you about his having been in russia and redefected? mr. revill. no, sir. mr. dulles. that did not come up in this conversation? mr. revill. no, sir. mr. rankin. did you ask him how he knew he was a communist? mr. revill. no, sir; i did not. mr. dulles. why not? mr. revill. i don't know. representative ford. in the statement that you gave on november which you have signed, you say? mr. revill. yes, sir. representative ford. "the subject was arrested for the murder of j. d. tippit and is a prime suspect in the assassination of president kennedy." mr. revill. this i found out after reporting to my office, i didn't know what time this happened. representative ford. in other words, you learned this subsequent to going with hosty? mr. revill. yes, sir. representative ford. and then coming back to your own office? mr. revill. yes, sir; some of the officers assigned to the special service bureau on--were involved in the arrest, detectives carroll and i talked to agent bob barrett, i ran into him in the hall and he had told me about the arrest of oswald. i think he was present at the time. representative ford. that is how you learned about this? mr. revill. yes, sir. mr. dulles. at what time of day did you make this actual statement and sign it approximately? mr. revill. approximately : , : . mr. dulles. : on the d of november? mr. revill. yes, sir. mr. dulles. this is the actual statement that you then signed and then you swore to it, and the notary's signature was put on on the d of april? mr. revill. no, sir; the notary's was on april , i believe. mr. dulles. th day of april, i mean, th day of april. mr. revill. yes, sir; but this is the report that i signed on the d. mr. dulles. this is the actual report that you signed on the d? mr. revill. on the d. this is a copy, i believe. mr. dulles. yes; this is a copy i have in my hand. mr. revill. yes, sir. mr. dulles. the original of this was made on november ? mr. revill. yes, sir. mr. dulles. and signed on november d? mr. revill. yes, sir; it was. mr. dulles. and later sworn to on april ? mr. revill. yes, sir; this is correct. mr. dulles. april , . mr. rankin. is all the information on given by you? mr. revill. is this ? mr. rankin. yes. mr. revill. all of the information, what do you mean by this, sir? mr. rankin. all of the language and everything on that exhibit, did you give that to some stenographer to write? mr. revill. yes, sir; i wrote it out. my stenographer, she is a clerk typist, and--i roughed it out and then she typed it for me. mr. rankin. now, the words "subject" lee harvey oswald. mr. revill. yes, sir. mr. rankin. was that given by you on the slip of paper you wrote out? mr. revill. yes, sir; i wrote it out in longhand. mr. rankin. and the words elsbeth street, was that given by you? mr. revill. yes, sir; this is the address we were given or i was given by some of the officers involved in the arrest. mr. rankin. who gave that to you? mr. revill. i believe detective carroll, carroll or detective taylor, they were both there. mr. rankin. and was that at the time you made this out that you were given that information? mr. revill. shortly before i made this out. mr. rankin. you didn't even know where he lived then? mr. revill. no, sir; i did not. i had never heard of him. mr. rankin. you know that is wrong, don't you? mr. revill. the ? mr. rankin. yes. mr. revill. i don't know. mr. rankin. is it wrong? mr. revill. yes; it is. mr. dulles. as of the time. mr. revill. that is what they gave me. mr. rankin. you found that out? mr. dulles. this is an address he once lived at. mr. rankin. do you know that? mr. dulles. this is correct. i want to find out what he knows about it. mr. revill. is this a--is this an incorrect address on mr. oswald where he was living at the time? mr. rankin. if you check it up i think you will find--it is an incorrect address at the time. i think you will also find that elsbeth street is where he lived at one time. mr. revill. now, where they got this address---- mr. rankin. you never checked that? mr. revill. i personally have not checked it but i am sure it has been checked. mr. rankin. i see. mr. revill. but this is the address i was given. mr. rankin. now, you say here that you were told that the subject was a member of the communist party. is that right? mr. revill. this might be my interpretation of mr. hosty saying a communist killed the president and we had him in our security files. mr. rankin. you are an expert in this field, aren't you? you are working in the subversive field? mr. revill. yes, sir; but as far as an expert, i wouldn't say i am an expert. mr. rankin. you know the difference between membership and a person being a communist, don't you? mr. revill. yes, sir. mr. rankin. and you know it is a very real difference? mr. revill. yes, sir; there is a difference. mr. rankin. do you know which mr. hosty told you? mr. revill. he did not say that he was a member. this was my connotation of what he said that a communist, that "we had him in our security files." mr. dulles. could i ask a question? where did you get this address that you put on of elsbeth street, do you recall? mr. revill. yes, sir; from detective e. b. carroll or detective taylor. mr. dulles. are they subordinates? mr. revill. no; they are detectives assigned to the special service bureau. one of them works the narcotics squad and one of them is assigned to the vice unit. mr. dulles. you never ascertained where they got it? mr. revill. no, sir; this might be the address that they got from oswald, i do not know. i never even thought about it until you brought up the point that this is not the address. mr. dulles. can you find out where they got this address? mr. revill. yes, sir; i can. mr. dulles. i think that would be useful. i would like to know that. i would like to know where they got this address also. mr. revill. it would have been the same day because this was made within an hour---- mr. rankin. you didn't put down on this statement anything about what you said, did you? mr. revill. no, sir; i did not. mr. rankin. why didn't you? mr. revill. all i was doing was reporting what mr. hosty said to me. mr. rankin. is that the way you make all your reports just one side? mr. revill. yes, sir; yes, sir. mr. rankin. you never say what you said? mr. revill. no, sir; i do not put our opinions or our interpretation in the report. mr. rankin. you don't even say what you asked? mr. revill. no, sir. mr. rankin. you just put the answer down? mr. revill. put what was given to me; yes, sir. mr. rankin. and that is the way all the police department reports are made? mr. revill. no, sir; i don't know whether this is the way they are all made. this is the way we do it in our unit. mr. rankin. after you made this report, do you know what happened to it? mr. revill. i gave it to the captain, my captain, captain gannaway. mr. rankin. do you know whether it was given to the commission when the police reports were furnished to the commission? mr. revill. this i do not know, sir. mr. rankin. i will tell you that it was not given to the commission. do you know any reason why it was withheld? mr. revill. no, sir; i do not. mr. rankin. do you know any reason why it should have been withheld until chief curry came here? mr. revill. no, sir; i do not. mr. rankin. did you have anything to do with that being withheld? mr. revill. no, sir; i gave it to my superior, and what he did with it, i do not know. mr. rankin. did you ever have any discussions about withholding it? mr. revill. no, sir. mr. rankin. you did want to protect agent hosty, you say? mr. revill. yes, sir. mr. rankin. and you hoped the information would not get out? mr. revill. by hoping---- the chairman. he didn't say exactly that, mr. rankin. he said he hoped he wouldn't have to use it against hosty as i understood him to say. mr. revill. yes, sir; my opinion, and this was my personal opinion that it would not serve any purpose. in your scope of the investigation, yes, i can see where it would, but i hated to get involved in a controversy with the fbi, because of our past relations. mr. rankin. did you recently have a conversation with lieutenant hopkins of fort worth? mr. revill. yes, sir. mr. rankin. where was that? mr. revill. lieutenant hopkins and i went to sacramento, calif., to a law enforcement intelligence unit conference and shared a room. mr. rankin. did you discuss this matter with him? mr. revill. yes, sir; it broke in the papers while we were there. mr. rankin. what did you say to him about it? mr. revill. about the report? about this report? mr. rankin. yes. mr. revill. i told him about the conversation with mr. hosty and about according to the news release, the news stories, this thing was released, and the newspaper reporters and television people in sacramento made it impossible for me to remain at the conference so i returned to dallas. i was there for day and returned the next, the next evening. mr. rankin. did you say anything about the report being inaccurate? mr. revill. inaccurate? mr. rankin. yes. mr. revill. no, sir. representative ford. what was the date of this conference in sacramento? mr. revill. april , , and , i believe. it was on a thursday, friday, and saturday. it could have been the d, th, and th but i returned on friday evening. mr. rankin. did you examine the newspaper report of your report, exhibit ? mr. revill. did i examine it? yes, sir; i read several newspaper reports of it. mr. rankin. did you give the reports to the newspapers? mr. revill. no, sir; i did not. mr. rankin. did you have anything to do with giving it to the newspapers? mr. revill. no, sir; this would have been the last thing i would have done. mr. rankin. do you know who did? mr. revill. no, sir; i do not. representative ford. what prompted you to discuss this information with the other officer from fort worth? mr. revill. i started getting long-distance telephone calls on the evening, it must have been the d, it was thursday night, i got two long-distance phone calls, and lieutenant hopkins and i were sharing a double room and, of course---- the chairman. lieutenant who? mr. revill. lieutenant hopkins of the fort worth police department. h. f. hopkins. the chairman. yes. mr. revill. and i discussed it with him. representative ford. who was calling you long distance, what relevance does that have to it? mr. revill. to my discussing it with him? representative ford. yes. mr. revill. the long-distance phone calls were about this report, the associated press and the united press. representative ford. i see. they had heard about it, they called you long distance and you discussed it with hopkins who was in the room with you? mr. revill. yes, sir. mr. rankin. that is all that i have, mr. chief justice. the chairman. have you anything further, or you? mr. dulles. tippit was not under your jurisdiction, was he? mr. revill. no, sir; he was not. the chairman. lieutenant, i am not familiar with the newspaper report that you are speaking of. what, in substance, did it say? mr. revill. there were several articles written. the dallas papers carried articles on it and the sacramento, calif., paper carried an article on it. in essence it had to do with this conversation that hosty and i had and about this report and somewhere, someplace some newspaper reporter must have seen a copy of this because he knew how many paragraphs they had in it and he quoted, i believe, the last paragraph of the report verbatim, and this is what concerned me, that a report such as this would fall into their hands. now, who the reporter is, there were several reporters that were curious about the thing, and i don't even recall which newspaper carried the verbatim paragraph about agent hosty's conversation. the chairman. and that is what caused you and lieutenant hopkins to have a discussion? mr. revill. yes, sir. the chairman. did he bring the matter up to you or did you bring it up to him? mr. revill. i might have brought it up to him because i was concerned that this thing had been released. the chairman. what was your conversation concerning that? mr. revill. that i had received these calls, the first one must have been around o'clock in the morning, california time, from the associated press. it was a lady writer, and she asked about this and i told her that any statement would have to be made by chief curry, and she trapped me really. she made a false statement that hosty was supposed to have said something else and i said no, that is not so. he did not make a statement, and then there was my comment. from that it looked like i had written them out a press release. the chairman. looks like what? mr. revill. it appears as if i had written out a press release from the comment in the newspapers but that was the only statement i made that hosty had not made such statement, it was a fabrication, he knew he was capable, but he did not make such a statement. hosty did not make such a statement. the chairman. then you discussed that with mr. hopkins? mr. revill. yes, sir. the chairman. do you recall just what mr. hopkins asked you and what you told him about this report? mr. revill. well, when i received the first call, i was in the coffee shop, it was o'clock in the morning, we had been out with two of the sacramento county sheriff's officers and i got the call and after getting the call i went to the room and hopkins had been awakened by this phone call, and i told him about the call, and then from there on, i had numerous long-distance calls, and i answered the one with the upi, and then i decided i would not talk to people. because i couldn't see where it would help anything. the chairman. did he ask you if the substance of this report was true, i am speaking now of exhibit , the one we have been talking about. mr. revill. mr. hopkins had never seen this report. i just told him what had transpired between hosty and i and told him that a report had been made, and this is what they were calling on. the chairman. did you at any time in talking to him repudiate anything that was in this report? mr. revill. no, sir. the only thing i repudiated was the fact that this reporter had said that hosty had made a statement and i said no, this is not true, about them not believing that he would do it, and i think i told hopkins that. the chairman. yes. anything more? mr. dulles. i have nothing more. the chairman. lieutenant, thank you very much, sir, for your help here. mr. revill. thank you, sir. i am just sorry it happened. the chairman. you have told us what the truth of the situation is, you could do no more and no less. mr. revill. yes, sir. (discussion off the record.) the chairman. lieutenant, just a question or two, we forgot to ask, mr. rankin, would you ask them, please? mr. rankin. you said you made some handwritten notes about this exhibit. mr. revill. yes, sir. mr. rankin. when you gave them to the typist--do you know what happened to those notes? mr. revill. they were destroyed, i am sure. mr. rankin. do you know what her name is who typed ? mr. revill. mary jane robertson. mr. rankin. is she still with the police department? mr. revill. yes, sir. mr. rankin. what position is she in now? mr. revill. she is a clerk-typist in the special service bureau. mr. rankin. do you know where the original of is? mr. revill. with chief curry, i assume. well, let's see. you have a copy; i would assume he has got it. mr. dulles. wasn't a copy made at the time? mr. revill. yes, sir; i have it. mr. dulles. the actual copy, you have? mr. revill. yes, sir; it is in my little briefcase. mr. rankin. so that original would be available to us? mr. dulles. you have it here now? mr. revill. i have a copy. mr. dulles. a carbon copy? mr. revill. yes, sir. the chairman. he showed us a copy of his testimony. representative ford. do you know how many copies were made? mr. revill. yes, sir; one and one; an original and one. representative ford. and you kept one copy and one went to captain gannaway? mr. revill. no; both copies went to captain gannaway who is my immediate superior and he later gave me back the carbon and the original went to chief curry. representative ford. and you have had the one copy in your possession since how long? mr. revill. probably a week or two after this thing happened, and i have had it in the lee harvey oswald file. representative ford. you have had this copy in your files in the police department? mr. revill. yes, sir. representative ford. since about december or thereabouts? mr. revill. yes, sir; thereabouts. the chairman. do you number those items in the file? mr. revill. yes, sir. the chairman. and the order in which they come in? mr. revill. yes, sir. now, this particular report was put in the lee harvey oswald file, and he was given an intelligence number, a & t, if i may get this copy i will explain to you---- the chairman. yes; would you do so, please? mr. revill. excuse me just a moment. you see, he was given a & t , page , as it appears in his file. this is indexed with a card with this file number and page number. the chairman. may i ask, would the next item in that file be numbered ? mr. revill. yes, sir; it would. the chairman. and the one directly preceding it would be ? mr. revill. thirty-three; yes, sir. the chairman. i see, and you have the rest of your file which would indicate that? mr. revill. yes, sir; i don't have it with me. the chairman. no; but you have it in your records. mr. revill. yes, sir. the chairman. and that could be produced if we wanted it? mr. revill. yes, sir; it is the complete file we have now on lee harvey oswald. the chairman. yes. mr. rankin. may we have---- mr. dulles. could i just see that? mr. rankin. could we make a copy of that? mr. revill. yes, sir; i put another piece in there because it is on onion skin. mr. rankin. we could make a photostatic copy quickly and return this to you. mr. revill. yes, sir. mr. rankin. mr. chief justice, i would like to number this in the next order of exhibits and offer it in evidence, if i may, this copy, the photostatic copy. the chairman. yes. mr. dulles. just as a security matter, would you kindly look in the file and see if by any chance your original longhand notes could have been put in the file, at this place in the file? mr. revill. yes, sir; i can, but i am sure they were not, because this was not made at my office. you see, we are removed physically from the police department, the intelligence unit, and this was made at the special service bureau office. mr. dulles. i see, not in your own office. mr. revill. no, sir; we are an integral part of the special service bureau office but our files are maintained elsewhere, and this was made at the special service bureau office. representative ford. when you sat down to write out this statement, just describe where you did it and how you did it, what kind of paper you used and so forth. mr. revill. well, we use the white pads like this, and i wrote it out on the pad, and in the special service bureau office and it was made in lieutenant dyson's office, he was out, and i used his desk, and then i took it to mrs. robertson, and she typed it. representative ford. did you consult with detective brian? mr. revill. no, sir. representative ford. during the time you were preparing it? mr. revill. no, sir. representative ford. or subsequent to its preparation? mr. revill. no, sir; i did not. at the time i couldn't have told you who was with me or who overheard this thing because there was so much confusion in the elevator and going to the elevator. representative ford. but brian was with you on the elevator? mr. revill. yes, sir; he was with me in the automobile and on the elevator. representative ford. was he up in gannaway's office with you, too? mr. revill. yes, sir; he works for me. representative ford. he was with you at the time you went to gannaway's office? mr. revill. the special service bureau office; yes, sir. representative ford. but he didn't see this at anytime? mr. revill. no, sir; i say he didn't, i don't know whether he ever saw it or not. he might have seen it when i was working on it and i gave both of the copies to the captain. the chairman. lieutenant, did that entire oswald file that you have just told us about come to the commission, do you know? mr. revill. i don't know. now what we did, we made up several large books, and it is my understanding that a copy of one of these was given to the attorney general waggoner and he was in turn to furnish it to this commission, this i was told by captain gannaway. mr. rankin. when was that? mr. revill. this was a month or two ago. mr. rankin. yes; but not when you first gave the files. mr. revill. no, sir; because this happened on the same day. the chairman. should that file have included this? mr. revill. no, sir; it didn't. there were only two pieces made of it, one copy and the original made of this. the chairman. i see. what i am getting at, when the department sent their reports to us, did they send copies of this file that exhibit is in? mr. revill. the lee harvey oswald file? the chairman. yes. mr. revill. i don't believe they did, because much of this is, pertains to newspaper articles, and information that we picked up such as leads where ruby and oswald were seen together, we ran all these things down, and then we would make a report of the lead, or the findings, and a copy of it would go in their files. the chairman. i see. mr. revill. but this one here, was not placed in that book? mr. dulles. in the original of commission exhibit no. that you have just given us prior to the notary public's inscription, subscription to it, there is red ink underlining of lee harvey oswald and james hosty. when was that put on this copy? mr. revill. i don't know, sir. captain gannaway must have done that because he had the thing and then later gave it to me. now, the reason for it being underlined, i don't know. on the original--yes; i do. mr. dulles. would that be for filing purposes? mr. revill. yes, sir; i do. normally we retain the original copy of every report for our file copy, but i did not have the file copy or the original report so our clerk in indexing this underscored the name and the address and she made cards for the index files. mr. dulles. that was a card, also, under the file of james hosty? mr. revill. yes, sir. mr. dulles. his name is also underlined in red? mr. revill. his name indexed; yes, sir. mr. dulles. in your original copy of exhibit ? mr. revill. no, sir; not the original copy, because the original---- mr. dulles. the carbon copy, excuse me, the carbon copy of . mr. revill. yes, sir. mr. dulles. and i assume that commission's exhibit no. which is a photostat is a photostat of the original rather than of the carbon copy? mr. revill. yes, sir; and i don't know who made the photostat, i did not. i assume chief curry had it made. mr. rankin. mr. reporter, we are giving the number to the carbon copy of exhibit that lieutenant revill has just produced. the chairman. you propose to take a photostat of this and return this report to the lieutenant? mr. rankin. if we may, mr. chief justice, this is the only copy that i have. the chairman. you should have it back. mr. revill. that is fine. the chairman. we will take a photostat and return this to you then. mr. revill. i appreciate that. the chairman. it may be admitted in that manner. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification, and received in evidence.) the chairman. i think that is all. thank you, again, lieutenant. mr. revill. i will attempt to find out on that address, and i shall let mr. sorrels know, with secret service. mr. rankin. yes; that will be fine. the chairman. thank you. testimony of v. j. brian the chairman. come right in, sir. detective brian, the purpose of today's hearing is to hear the testimony of lieutenant revill and yourself with particular regard to an alleged conversation with special agent james p. hosty, jr. of the federal bureau of investigation claimed to have occurred on november , , in the afternoon and also concerning the facts surrounding the discussion of commission exhibits nos. and . is the affidavit of lieutenant revill, and is the affidavit that you made concerning that matter. mr. brian. yes, sir. the chairman. would you raise your right hand and be sworn, please? do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. brian. yes, sir; i do. the chairman. please be seated. mr. rankin will conduct the examination. mr. brian. my name is brian. mr. rankin. where do you live? mr. brian. in dallas, tex. mr. rankin. do you have some connection with the police department in dallas? mr. brian. yes, sir; i am a detective in the criminal intelligence section. mr. rankin. how long have you occupied that position? mr. brian. since june of . mr. rankin. what is your function as a detective for the criminal intelligence section? mr. brian. to gain, obtain information and keep records and files, and usually when an important government official comes to town we guard them or help assist guard them, and furnish information for other agencies outside of the dallas police department and have liaison, and general criminal investigation work. mr. rankin. did you have anything to do with the lee harvey oswald case? mr. brian. yes, sir. mr. rankin. when was the first time that you had anything to do with that matter? mr. brian. well, we started interrogating people and talking to people immediately after the assassination. mr. rankin. about what time of the day? mr. brian. in the middle of the afternoon, probably---- mr. rankin. november , ? mr. brian. yes, sir. the first thing that we done, i was, i personally that day was, assigned at the dallas trade mart where the president was to speak, i was on the side of the speaker stand when he was to come in, and they came in and got us and told us that he had been shot, and the president of the united states had been shot, and that a man in the book depository down there and told us to go down there and see if we could get him out, and four of us detectives down there got in a car and we went to the book depository and we arrived there a short time, i don't know what time it was, a short time after the shooting occurred. mr. rankin. who were the four you are describing now? mr. brian. lieutenant revill, myself, a detective, o. j. tarver, and a detective, roy w. westphal. mr. rankin. what did you do there? mr. brian. we searched the book depository for a couple of hours. we spent about hours, i would guess, approximately hours down there searching the depository. mr. rankin. did you find anything at that time? mr. brian. no, sir. i was there on the floor when the man found shells over in a corner when--where the assassin was hidden at. but other than that, i wasn't present when anything was found. mr. rankin. will you just describe that event when you saw those shells? mr. brian. well, a police sergeant, jerry hill, hollered, i was on the opposite side of the sixth floor, hollered that he had, this is where he shot from, and shells were laying there, and i walked from where i was at over to the other corner of the building and looked, and that is about the extent of my investigation there because they called the crime laboratory and everybody else to get down there and they got an officer to guard the place and not let nobody get around and we went on searching the building. mr. rankin. what did you see, how many shells did you see? mr. brian. i am going to guess. mr. rankin. we don't want you to guess. if you can tell us your recollection, that is all. mr. brian. well, the first time i went over there, i believe i saw two, but i am not sure, but i went back again later and there were three shells there. mr. rankin. now after that, did you leave the depository building? mr. brian. yes, sir; after we spent considerable time, we went from the top floor down to the bottom floor, back up, going through it, and we finally wound up on the second floor taking all the acoustic tile out of the ceiling looking up to see if anybody was hidden up there, and i believe that was the last thing we did in the building. by that time, there were a number of people in the building. mr. rankin. you were making a complete search of each floor, were you? mr. brian. yes, sir; i was with, i mean there were a number of officers there. i didn't do it by myself, there were a number of us there and we were searching it. mr. rankin. then you left the building? mr. brian. yes, sir. mr. rankin. did you leave with some other officers? mr. brian. yes, sir; lieutenant revill, myself, and tarver and westphal all went back to the car and left to go to city hall. mr. rankin. then you got back to the city hall. what did you do? mr. brian. we drove into the basement and parked. mr. rankin. what time of the day was that, can you tell us? mr. brian. probably around o'clock or somewhere in that. i don't really know to be truthful because i didn't pay any attention to the time but it was around o'clock, i would guess. mr. rankin. and the four of you were together at that time? mr. brian. yes, sir. mr. rankin. what happened at that point? mr. brian. we got out of the car, and as we got out of the car---- mr. dulles. was the car already inside the building or in the driveway there? mr. brian. yes, sir. let me explain. city hall basement, as some of you all know---- mr. dulles. i was just there so i want to know. mr. brian. we came around the ramp and we parked in the basement. we were parked in the basement, and we got out, and started around, there is a railing there, we started around the railing and at that time jim hosty was coming across the basement, at a fast trot, or moving fairly fast---- mr. rankin. special agent hosty of the bureau? mr. brian. yes, sir. and he came across there and i know him, and i had known him for a good while to speak to him. mr. rankin. where were you with reference to lieutenant revill at that point? mr. brian. i think i was on his, probably his right-hand side. mr. rankin. close to him? mr. brian. fairly close; yes, sir. and so we walked over to meet, kind of cornered, you cross paths and we walked up there to meet jim, and he said, he came up there and he said, that lee oswald, a communist, killed the president, and then revill said, "what?" he said, lee oswald, a communist, killed the president. he was in--nervous--in a hurry, and was just talking. and then he said, he said that he knew that he was a communist and he knew he worked in the book depository, and then lieutenant revill said something else to him, i am not--i don't know what he said, and they walked off in front of me going in around and in through the door over to the elevator to go up, and then we accompanied agent hosty up to captain fritz' office which is on the---- mr. dulles. was the elevator there at the basement floor when you took it or did you have to wait? mr. brian. we had to wait just a very short time on it. it wasn't standing open waiting; no, sir. we had to wait on it just a very short time, i believe, and we went up to the third floor, and hosty and lieutenant revill went in there and talked. i went to the door and just stepped inside and waited and then we went back downstairs to our office which is on two, right underneath captain fritz' office. mr. dulles. you accompanied them to the third floor and then you came down? mr. brian. yes, sir. mr. dulles. in the elevator? mr. brian. that i am not sure. mr. dulles. or did you get out and come down the stairs? mr. brian. i am not sure. mr. dulles. but you weren't with lieutenant revill any further? mr. brian. when we came back down to our office, we came back down, i am not sure whether we rode the elevator or not. it is a short trip down and i am--i would be afraid to say whether we walked, rode, or how we got down, but we went into captain gannaway's office and revill told, lieutenant revill told the captain what hosty had said, so he said, "write a report." mr. rankin. what did he say at that time? what did he tell the captain that agent hosty had said? mr. brian. he told him, short and very quick, that they knew that oswald was a communist and that he was in the book depository, and he said, "write a report and get it back to me right now." and he went right back and wrote a report. i forgot about the whole incident, i didn't think it would be important and i didn't--well, in fact, i didn't have time to because when i got back there they had a list of names they were going to start checking out and they handed me six of them and says, "start going and checking here and here and here and checking these people." so i never did dwell on it again. mr. rankin. in this conversation down in the basement, have you told us all that agent hosty said that you recall? mr. brian. yes, sir. mr. rankin. and have you told us all that lieutenant revill said that you recall? mr. brian. yes, sir. mr. rankin. have you told us all that lieutenant revill told to captain gannaway that you recall? mr. brian. well, let's see. i believe that i have, yes, sir. when--captain gannaway's office, as you go in the door and turn right and his office is in there and if i recall correctly i didn't go all the way in his office, he did and i stood in the door, and i really didn't make a mental note of what happened and things were moving at a rather fast pace, and i believe that i did; yes, sir. mr. rankin. you have made an affidavit about this, have you not? mr. brian. yes, sir; i made a report to chief curry. mr. rankin. and you swore to that? mr. brian. yes, sir. mr. rankin. is exhibit a photostatic copy of your report that you made that you have just described? mr. brian. yes, sir. mr. rankin. did you swear to that report on the date that it bears? mr. brian. yes, sir. mr. rankin. april , ? mr. brian. yes, sir. mr. rankin. you read the exhibit right now, didn't you? mr. brian. yes, sir. mr. rankin. is it correct? mr. brian. yes, sir. mr. rankin. are there any additions or corrections that you wish to make to it? mr. brian. no, sir. the chairman. i was just going to ask if you fixed the date on which he dictated that or wrote it, whichever he did. mr. rankin. i haven't, but i will. will you tell us on what date you wrote or dictated exhibit ? mr. brian. yes, sir; the day before, i believe it was the day before, chief curry came up here. it was either a day or days before april th is what it says on there. that is the date that i made the report, the day or days before chief curry came up here. will you tell us on what date you wrote or dictated exhibit ? mr. brian. i didn't think--well, captain gannaway told lieutenant revill to write a report about the thing the date it happened, and he did, or i assumed he did, and i guess that he did. i haven't---- mr. rankin. have you ever seen that report? mr. brian. i have seen it, but i haven't read it. that is unusual but i haven't. i didn't think the incident was really important, that is the reason why i didn't dwell on it, and i am sure it is now or i wouldn't be up here. but they, a few days before chief curry was to come up here they said they wanted a report, you know, to what i had heard in the basement and this and that and the other, and i said, "well, i better write one then." i just assumed it was all taken care of, and so i wrote one on the th, i wrote that report on the th and swore to it and turned it in and he brought it up here. mr. dulles. you made no contemporaneous memoranda, that is on november you made no notes or memoranda of this? mr. brian. no, sir. mr. dulles. so the report of april you dictated on or about april is based on your memory? mr. brian. yes, sir. mr. rankin. exhibit , your report, was that written out in longhand or dictated to a girl? mr. brian. no, sir; i typed it myself on the typewriter. we don't have a stenographer in our office to dictate to. mr. rankin. you did type the part about the notary and so forth on the bottom? mr. brian. no, sir. mr. rankin. do you know who did that? mr. brian. i believe bill biggio. mr. rankin. who is he? mr. brian. he is a detective who works the desk there, who is a notary who notarized it. mr. rankin. now, before you made exhibit did anyone give you lieutenant revill's report to examine? mr. brian. no, sir. mr. rankin. compare your report with? mr. brian. no, sir. mr. rankin. and you have never read that? mr. brian. i don't recall reading it; no, sir. i sure don't. i probably looked at it but as far as sitting down and reading it, i have never read the report, i don't believe. mr. rankin. so if there is any differences between your report and his you are not familiar with them? mr. brian. no, sir. representative ford. subsequent to november and prior to april , when you prepared this exhibit , did you ever talk to lieutenant revill about the incident? mr. brian. yes, sir; i sure did. he couldn't remember who was with him down in the basement, and it rocked on there and had rocked on there, and somewhere it came out that somebody said he was lying about it and he was telling us, he said, "i am telling you the truth". "you don't have to tell me, i know you are; i was standing there with you." and he said, "you were the one who was with me?" and i said, "yes, i was with you." and i assumed he knew that i was with him. that is when he talked to chief curry and chief curry come back and said he needed the report from me, too. representative ford. when did this conversation take place? mr. brian. the date i don't have any idea. probably or weeks, i will tell you---- mr. dulles. or weeks what? after november ? mr. brian. no, sir; before the date i wrote the report, because i messed around there for another couple of weeks and then i walked in the office one day and he said, "chief curry wants it today," and i said, "all right, i will write it," and i sat down and wrote it, and i believe the next day or the day after that he brought it, came up here, and all this come out in the paper about making a statement and me backing the statement up in dallas, i don't know whether it came up here or not. representative ford. who prompted this conversation that you have been describing? mr. brian. in our office that day? representative ford. yes. mr. brian. i am trying to think what brought it on. somebody, there was a statement in the paper or something that said that--anyway, somewhere down the line it came out, it said it wasn't right what lieutenant revill had said. and i said, "i know it is right, i was standing there," and that was about the extent of that. and then he said, "well, i will need"--he talked to chief curry, i guess, and they decided they needed a report from me on it, and then i finally wrote the report and he brought it up here. i guess it was just in the course of a conversation more than anything. i don't think anybody prompted it, really. representative ford. in this commission you actually typed it out yourself? mr. brian. yes, sir. representative ford. are you a fairly accomplished typist? mr. brian. no, sir. i can type fairly well. i am not a touch typist. i can't copy, but i can type fairly well typing something i don't have to copy off of a sheet of paper. in other words, i have to look at the keys to type it. representative ford. did you have to rewrite this a second time on the typewriter? mr. brian. yes, sir. i made several strikeovers and some other stuff, and typed it, i had to type it over again. representative ford. in other words, you typed it out once, and then retyped it yourself? mr. brian. yes, sir; i typed it twice. the first time everything wasn't right in there and the spelling and the strikeovers and stuff, and not being an accomplished typist i still don't like to throw things out, you know, that don't look too bad so i typed it over again. representative ford. but after you typed it over the first time did you show it to somebody else? mr. brian. i believe lieutenant revill looked at it and called a bunch of mistakes to my attention. representative ford. what kind of mistakes? mr. brian. well, i don't know. there were some strikeovers and some, a couple of misspelled words, i believe, and i don't have a copy of the one that i copied from so i couldn't say, but i did have to type the report over. representative ford. but these mistakes that were pointed out by lieutenant revill, were they mistakes of substance or just mistakes involving spelling and the like? mr. brian. well, what do you mean by substance now? representative ford. well, i mean as to the precise things that you said as to what transpired? mr. brian. i don't believe there were. i am trying to recall what i had to add that took place there, and---- representative ford. it is important whether or not any statements of facts were altered or whether the changes were simply typographical errors or otherwise. mr. brian. i will tell you one thing that i recall he called to my attention was : p.m., i believe, and i told him, i said i can't put that in there because i don't know what time it was, and i don't. i don't have any idea of what time it was, and he said, "well, all right, leave that out," but i think the substance was probably the same in both reports. in fact, i am sure the substance was probably the same, because it was, the grammar was changed in some places, some spelling was changed, and some strikeovers were changed, and i think probably the second report was copied, that one was copied partially from the first one and then i made some changes. representative ford. while you were in the process of discussing this with lieutenant revill he didn't show you his report, exhibit ? mr. brian. i don't know whether he did or not. i don't believe that he did. i don't believe he did. representative ford. had you seen it before? mr. brian. i have seen the report. representative ford. did you see it before you typed this up? mr. brian. i don't recall seeing it. i may have, but i don't recall it. now, he has got something in there that i don't have in mine, i know about him saying that hosty knew that oswald, i believe, was capable of assassinating the president, but i didn't hear hosty say that. representative ford. when did you learn that that statement was in revill's statement? mr. brian. just to be truthful, i don't know. mr. rankin. did lieutenant revill ask you to include in your statement that hosty had said that oswald was known to be capable of being an assassin? mr. brian. no, sir; he asked me if i heard him say it and i told him no, but i don't believe he asked me to include that in the report. mr. dulles. you told him, no. mr. rankin. when was that? mr. brian. probably the day--now, this all happened in the course of a week's time and the conversations are hard to put on a day or time, i mean when you don't think--i didn't think all this was real important, and so i didn't try to backlog it to where--it was probably the day, probably about april , along in there. mr. rankin. before or after you wrote your report? mr. brian. in between the first report and the second report i imagine. mr. rankin. i am not quite clear about how you happened to make this report in that i understood you to say that there were some newspaper accounts about it, and the lieutenant said, well, he had said what was true and something like that. can you tell us what happened? mr. brian. well, now, to go back. we were in the office talking and i don't know how long this was because it may have been days, days, weeks or weeks, before i wrote that report, we were sitting in the office, and i don't recall whether it was a newspaper account or what it was, but anywhere somewhere down the line he got--somebody said that it wasn't the truth and he was lying or something and he was sitting out there talking and he said, he said he wasn't lying about it and i told him, i said "i know you are not lying because i stood there and heard you." and he said, "oh, you are the one who was with me?" and i said, "yes." but i assumed that his report, up until that time i had not seen his report, and i have seen it since then and i haven't read it from one end to the other until the other day, and he said, "well, i am glad to know you are the one who was there then," and evidently he had forgotten i was there, too. so, he said, "well, make me a report on what you heard," and i said, "all right, i will," and he talked to chief curry and evidently before he told me that it was a matter of days or time differential in there and i said, "all right," and i just did not get around to it until finally one day i came in the office and he said, "i've got to have that report today," and i said, "all right," and i sat down and wrote it and i had to write it over again, that happened on the day the report is dated. mr. rankin. all of that happened, though, before any news accounts of it, didn't it? mr. brian. well, i don't remember when they started putting it in the newspapers. there had been something about it to make him, somewhere to make him say, he was trying to convince me he was telling the truth and i said, "well, i know you are." i don't know what brought it on, i don't know whether it was a newspaper report or something, but anyway there was some--maybe chief curry was on him about it, i don't know. but he said that he was telling the truth and i told him i knew he was telling the truth because i had heard it. mr. rankin. you said you were there with him? mr. brian. yes, sir. mr. rankin. how close were you to him when he was talking to hosty? mr. brian. right next to him when we were talking with him. we talked around there and how you meet, you know, you walk up together and meet and went on with him. mr. dulles. you were walking toward the elevator at that time, weren't you? mr. brian. let me draw you a little picture of how that is down there. mr. dulles. i have been in the basement so i know something about it. mr. brian. yes, sir. but the ramp goes up here, this is why it would be easier to draw a picture and it would be easier than i can explain. he came down the ramp. mr. dulles. in the car? mr. brian. yes, sir. mr. dulles. and you parked in the basement? mr. brian. and we parked the car, and hosty had parked over here. you know the ramp is wide here and the other side goes up here, he had parked over in here and he was coming across this way and we coming across this way and we met. mr. dulles. where is the elevator which takes prisoners up where oswald was shot? mr. brian. right through here, right in here somewhere is where ruby shot oswald and this is a ramp from the main street side and this is the ramp to the commerce side. and this is the elevator. mr. dulles. where is the elevator? mr. brian. the elevator is right there. the chairman. that is the prisoners' elevator? mr. brian. no, sir. the chairman. or the freight elevator? mr. brian. no, sir; that is the elevator going up---- the chairman. which one did you take? mr. brian. we took the elevator inside the city hall basement. the chairman. i see. mr. dulles. is there only one elevator there? mr. brian. no, sir; there are two side by side. back on this side of the basement there are two elevators over here and one freight elevator right back on in here. but this is to the city hall this direction and this is the ramp coming in from main street and the ramp going up to commerce street. we drove in this ramp one way going in this way and one way going out. mr. dulles. where are the stairs? mr. brian. in the basement? mr. dulles. you don't know? mr. brian. there are no stairs in the basement. i mean out here where the cars are parked. right here is the ramp, there is a walkway going up but it is not a stairway and then it levels off and you go by through here, and the jail is right here, do you recall the jail being here, on the right by the doors as you go in. mr. dulles. i only saw the jail on top side. mr. brian. well, the jail office is right there at the head of this ramp, the jail office where they book the prisoners through. mr. dulles. i didn't go in there. mr. brian. that is the door they brought lee oswald out of when he was shot, going into the jail office right there. mr. rankin. there are no stairs from the basement to the third floor? mr. brian. there are stairs inside of the basement but there are none out here, inside of the basement of city hall but none out here in the parking area. mr. rankin. where are the stairs from the place where the elevators are that you took. are there any stairs? mr. brian. i didn't take any stairs. mr. rankin. no. you say you took elevators. mr. brian. yes, sir. mr. rankin. were there stairs near the elevators? mr. brian. back right over--let me get a pencil and draw the whole thing for you. that is about the way it is situated right there. mr. rankin. mr. brian, we will call that exhibit . will you just briefly tell the commission what you have done in making that exhibit now? mr. brian. all right, sir. i am not an artist. but we came down the ramp on main street, came around here to the parking area. mr. hosty was parked over here. there is a bunch of poles out there and i won't try to draw them in here. mr. rankin. mark that "a" where mr. hosty was parked as you just indicated. mr. brian. all right. and he was coming this way and we were coming this way. we met him about in the middle of this ramp out here, and talked, and---- mr. rankin. you were right alongside of lieutenant revill? mr. brian. yes, sir; and they walked on off and i came back behind through here to these elevators and off here we caught the elevators and went on up. mr. rankin. how close were you when you came behind them? mr. brian. just--i didn't keep a constant pace with them, but as far as--i don't recall exactly---- mr. rankin. you were close to them, were you? mr. brian. here is the stairway in the basement, there is one narrow stairway going up to the first floor, and you pass it and you go by the phone booth and a jail office and you pass the stairway, it is right over here in the basement of city hall. mr. rankin. and you were close to them as you went across there to take the elevator? mr. brian. i was behind them and they were going away from me and i was fairly close, yes, sir. mr. rankin. about how far? mr. brian. probably or feet or feet behind. when we got to the elevator and we all stopped there together and caught the elevator. mr. dulles. where did the conversation take place, in front of the elevators there? mr. brian. that i heard? mr. dulles. yes. mr. brian. right out here, because mr. hosty started blurting it out just as soon as he started across here. mr. dulles. and you walked from this point here? mr. brian. over to here, to the elevators. mr. dulles. mark that point "b." mr. rankin. where you met? mr. dulles. where you met hosty. mr. brian. ok. mr. dulles. and you walked along, make a mark there, if you would, along there to the elevators where you walked. mr. brian. that is not exactly that way, this is offset, you have to come over here to go up, it is not drawn exactly right, we walked across here to the elevators straight through. mr. dulles. how far is that, a hundred feet--no, less than that. mr. brian. it is much less than a hundred feet. mr. dulles. fifty feet, something like that. mr. brian. probably , feet. mr. dulles. yes, sir. mr. brian. something like that. mr. dulles. where is this, where does that stairway go? mr. brian. up to the first floor. back in the hallway. mr. dulles. and you are quite clear you didn't go up that stairway? mr. brian. we didn't go up a stairway, no; not that stairway here. mr. dulles. or any other stairway? mr. brian. going up? mr. dulles. yes. mr. brian. no, sir; we didn't go up the stairway going up. the chairman. when you got up to the first floor by that stairway, are there other stairs leading up to the floors above that connect with this? mr. brian. yes, sir; you have to go around. this is just a narrow stairway going from the basement, it is probably, well, just a regular narrow staircase that goes up, straight up. after you get to the first floor the stairways widen out probably as wide as that window and go up half a floor and meet another landing and then go up to the third floor that way. they widen out. representative ford. was anybody with mr. hosty? mr. brian. not when we met him there; no, sir. representative ford. when you got on the elevator, who was on the elevator? mr. brian. it was full. mr. dulles. were there a lot of pressmen down there, no television---- mr. brian. i don't recall seeing any but there may have been some. i don't recall seeing any but there may have been. the chairman. you say the elevator was full? mr. brian. yes, sir. the chairman. about how many people would it carry approximately? mr. brian. probably or . representative ford. did revill and hosty and yourself get on the elevator? mr. brian. yes, sir. representative ford. anybody else get on at that point that you recall? mr. brian. as i recall there was a little interchange of people, some got off and some got on, i believe. i believe there was a little interchange of people. mr. dulles. at the bottom, that is the bottom story for the elevator? mr. brian. yes, sir; in the basement. representative ford. as you got on the elevator and as you rode up, did you hear hosty and revill converse at all? mr. brian. no, sir. representative ford. there was no further conversation on this problem? mr. brian. no, sir. representative ford. when you got off the elevator where did you go? mr. brian. right on around. you get off the elevator and you come straight out---- mr. dulles. what floor--three? mr. brian. three. went around to the left to captain fritz' office and turned right in captain fritz' office and i stopped right there at the door and he took him over and introduced him, talked to, i believe, lieutenant wells. mr. dulles. captain fritz wasn't there at that time? mr. brian. i don't recall seeing him in there. but captain fritz has got him a little office in the side and you have got to walk up in front and see if he is in there because he stays in there all the time. representative ford. what did revill and you do? mr. brian. went back down to our office. representative ford. gannaway's--is that gannaway's office? mr. brian. gannaway's; yes, sir. representative ford. as you drove---- mr. dulles. what floor is that on? mr. brian. captain gannaway's is on the second floor. representative ford. as you drove from the texas school depository building after making a check of the facilities who was in the car? mr. brian. our car? representative ford. yes. mr. brian. let me see, lieutenant revill, myself, westphal, tarver, and we gave a man a lift, and i don't remember whether he was a cid, i don't know the man, i don't remember whether he was a cic agent or a cid or osi, he was some type of, as i recall, army intelligence man. mr. dulles. army, air force, or something? mr. brian. he was connected with the service and we let him out a couple of blocks, if i recall, up about field street, somewhere along in there. lieutenant revill knew him, who he was, and he rode up there with us. representative ford. who drove the car? mr. brian. lieutenant revill. it was his car. representative ford. did you sit in the front or back seat? mr. brian. sat in the back seat on the left-hand side. representative ford. who sat in the front seat. mr. brian. i don't recall. mr. dulles. you were right behind lieutenant revill? mr. brian. i believe i was right behind lieutenant revill. yes, sir; that is, i believe i sat in the back seat. representative ford. when you got into the building and got out of the car, what happened to the other occupants of the car? mr. brian. i don't know. they went on about, probably went up to captain gannaway, but i don't recall seeing them after we started talking to hosty and went on, somewhere in the shuffle they didn't stay with us and went on. representative ford. they didn't accompany you up the elevator? mr. brian. no, sir; and i don't know where they went. mr. dulles. that is they weren't among the possibly men of the police who were in the elevator, as far as you remember, i mean? mr. brian. as far as i remember; no. mr. rankin. mr. brian, i call your attention to exhibit a and the fact that is a newspaper account and ask you to examine and state whether or not you recall having seen that before. i want to correct the record, that is commission a which is attached to exhibit . mr. brian. yes, sir; i read this in the dallas paper, i believe. mr. rankin. did you have anything to do with giving that to the paper? mr. brian. no, sir. mr. rankin. did you talk to any newspaper people about it? mr. brian. no, sir; haven't talked to any since it happened. mr. rankin. all you know about it is that you just saw it in the paper? mr. brian. yes, sir. mr. rankin. then---- mr. brian. i know the next--it was supposed to come out on friday because on saturday they started calling my house and i left. mr. rankin. you never answered any of the calls? mr. brian. no, sir; i never talked to any reporters about it. mr. rankin. that is all i have, mr. chief justice. the chairman. congressman, do you have anything? representative ford. i don't believe so, mr. chief justice. the chairman. mr. dulles? mr. dulles. give me just minute, mr. chief justice. in the second paragraph of your letter, commission exhibit , you say "upon entering the basement of city hall," he, agent hosty, that you explained, who had already parked his car, he also parked his car in the basement of the city hall building? mr. brian. yes, sir; over here where you told me to put "a" he was or in that area over there and was out of his car walking towards us. mr. dulles. and you go on to say "and was walking very fast toward the entrance of the city hall from the parking area." mr. brian. yes, sir; that is this entrance over here. mr. dulles. what is that marked? is there a mark on that? mr. brian. no, sir. you didn't tell me to mark "a" and "b" where we met. mr. dulles. you might mark that "c," i think we have "a" and "b." mr. brian. o.k., "c" would be the entrance by the jail office. mr. dulles. that is right. "at this time hosty made the statement that lee oswald had killed the president, and that oswald was a communist." now, at this time, that is walking toward point "c" you have just marked on exhibit---- mr. brian. no, sir; we stopped here for a pause just for a short time, it would be hard to say how long but it wasn't because--it wasn't long because it don't take long to make a statement. representative ford. that is point "b." mr. brian. yes, sir. mr. dulles. near point "b" is where this conversation took place. mr. brian. yes, sir. mr. dulles. and you did not hear the content of any further conversations? mr. brian. no, sir; other than that he said he knew he was a communist and knew he was working in the book depository. mr. dulles. did further conversations take place between lieutenant revill and agent hosty after that? mr. brian. yes, sir; they walked on talking. mr. dulles. but you did not hear what they said at that time? mr. brian. i was behind them and lieutenant revill got in a hurry when that happened and they got on and i was behind them, and it is pretty hard to hear what people are saying in front of you when they have got their back turned to you and you are behind them. mr. dulles. you have indicated that in paragraph of exhibit . you say, "while we were in the basement hosty also said several things to lieutenant revill that i could not hear," because of the excitement and commotion, that is what you had reference to? mr. brian. yes, sir; they were conversing as they walked on and i couldn't hear them and i didn't hear what they said, i was behind them. i didn't pay a whole lot of attention to the whole thing because like i say i didn't think it would matter any. it was just--and things were happening pretty fast, and along about that time. mr. dulles. that is all i have, mr. chairman. mr. rankin. mr. chairman, i would like to offer the diagram, exhibit , if i may. the chairman. yes, all right; it may be admitted under that number. thank you very much. (at this point representative ford left the hearing room.) (commission exhibit no. was marked for identification and received in evidence.) mr. dulles. that is the original before the notary public put his endorsement on it. mr. brian. yes, sir; that went forward. the chairman. thank you. mr. rankin. mr. chief justice, mr. specter is going to examine these people about the velocity and so forth and i want to speak on--speak to him just a minute about the matter we talked about. the chairman. we will take a break now. (recess.) testimony of robert a. frazier the chairman. mr. specter, you may proceed. you have been sworn and you are still under oath, as you understand? mr. frazier. yes. mr. specter. will you state your name again for the record, please? mr. frazier. robert a. frazier. mr. specter. mr. frazier, you have appeared heretofore to testify about certain tests which you have conducted, but at this phase of the record, will you state briefly your occupation and your specialty, please? mr. frazier. i am a special agent assigned to the fbi laboratory, the firearms identification unit in washington, d.c., where i make examinations of bullets, cartridges, gunpowder tests, bullet holes, examinations of clothing, and other similar types of examinations. mr. specter. in the course of your duties have you had an occasion to examine the clothing which was purportedly worn by president john kennedy on november , ? mr. frazier. yes, sir; i have. mr. specter. and do you have that clothing with you at the present time, sir? mr. frazier. i have certain parts of it. i have the coat, shirt, tie, and the bandages and support belt which he allegedly was wearing that day. mr. specter. would you refer at this time to the coat, if you please, which, may the record show, has heretofore been marked as commission exhibit . and by referring to that coat will you describe what, if anything, you observed on the rear side of the coat? mr. frazier. there was located on the rear of the coat - / inches below the top of the collar, a hole, further located as - / inches to the right of the midline or the seam down the center of the coat; all of these being as you look at the back of the coat. mr. specter. what characteristics did you note, if any, on the nature of that hole? mr. frazier. i noticed that the hole penetrated both the outer and lining areas of the coat, that it was roughly circular in shape. when i first examined it it was approximately one-fourth of an inch in diameter, and the cloth fibers around the margins of the hole were pushed inward at the time i first examined it in the laboratory. mr. specter. did any tests conducted on the coat disclose any metallic substance on that area of that hole? mr. frazier. yes, sir. i had a spectrographer run an analysis of a portion of the hole which accounts for its being slightly enlarged at the present time. he took a sample of cloth and made an analysis of it. i don't know actually whether i am expected to give the results of his analysis or not. mr. specter. yes; would you please, or let me ask you first of all, were those tests run by the federal bureau of investigation in the regular course of its testing procedures? mr. frazier. yes, sir; they were. mr. specter. and have those results been made available to you through the regular recordkeeping procedures of the fbi? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. specter. would you then please tell us what those tests disclose? mr. frazier. traces of copper were found around the margins of the hole in the back of the coat, and as a control, a very small section under the collar was taken, and no copper being found there, it was concluded that the copper was foreign to the coat itself. mr. specter. have you now described all of the characteristics of that hole, which you consider to be important for the commission's consideration? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. specter. assuming that those clothes, that jacket, specifically, at this juncture, was worn by president kennedy, and was in the same condition when that hole was made as it is now, and at the time when you made your examination, do you have a professional opinion as to what caused that hole in the back of the jacket? mr. frazier. yes, sir; i would say that it was an entrance hole for a bullet. mr. specter. and what is the reason for that conclusion, please? mr. frazier. it has all the physical appearance characteristics which are considered when examining holes, such as its shape, its size, and in particular the fact that the fibers around the margins of the hole were all pushed inward where the cloth was torn by the object which passed through, and the fibers were unraveled as they were pushed inward, which is characteristic of a entrance-type bullet hole. mr. specter. is the presence of the metallic substance relevant in your conclusion that it was a bullet hole? mr. frazier. not necessarily. it is a factor which corroborates that opinion but even without it, it would still have been my opinion that it was a bullet entrance hole. mr. specter. can you tell the size of the bullet from the hole in the jacket? mr. frazier. the hole in the jacket is approximately a quarter of an inch in diameter. mr. specter. would that hole be consistent with a hole which would be caused by a . millimeter bullet? mr. frazier. yes, sir; the actual bullet which makes a hole cannot be determined because the cloth in one instance may stretch more than it does in another instance causing either a larger or smaller hole even for the same caliber, but it is consistent for a bullet of . millimeters in diameter to make a hole of approximately this size. mr. specter. were there any holes indicative of being bullet holes found on the front part of the president's jacket? mr. frazier. no, sir. mr. specter. did you have further occasion to examine the president's shirt? mr. frazier. i did. mr. specter. may the record show that the shirt has heretofore been identified as commission exhibit ? the chairman. yes; it may be. mr. specter. what, if anything, did you observe then on the back side of the shirt, mr. frazier? mr. frazier. i found on the back of the shirt a hole, - / inches below the top of the collar, and as you look at the back of the shirt - / inch to the right of the midline of the shirt, which is this hole i am indicating. mr. specter. may the record show the witness is examining the shirt, as he has the coat, to indicate the hole to the commission. the chairman. the record may show that. mr. frazier. in connection with this hole, i made the same examination as i did on the coat, exhibit . i found the same situation to prevail, that is the hole was approximately circular in shape, about one-fourth inch in diameter, and again the physical shape of it is characteristic of a bullet hole, that is the edges are frayed, and there are slight radial tears in the cloth, which is characteristic of a bullet having passed through the cloth, and further, the fibers around the margin of the hole were--had been pressed inward, and assuming that, when i first examined the shirt it was in the same condition as it was at the time the hole was made, it is my opinion that this hole, in addition, was caused by a bullet entering the shirt from the back at that point. mr. specter. is that hole consistent with having been caused by a . millimeter bullet? mr. frazier. yes; it is. mr. specter. with respect to the front side of the shirt, what, if any, hole did you find there? mr. frazier. only one hole. mr. dulles. may i ask one question there? mr. frazier. yes; certainly. mr. dulles. is the hole in the shirt and the hole in the coat you have just described in a position that indicates that the same instrument, whatever it was, or the same bullet, made the two? mr. frazier. yes; they are. they are both--the coat hole is - / inches below the top of the collar. the shirt hole is - / inches, which could be accounted for by a portion of the collar sticking up above the coat about a half inch. mr. dulles. i see. mr. frazier. and they are both located approximately the same distance to the right of the midline of both garments. now, on the front of the shirt, i found what amounts to one hole. actually, it is a hole through both the button line of the shirt and the buttonhole line which overlap down the front of the shirt when it is buttoned. mr. specter. proceed. mr. frazier. this hole is located immediately below the button being centered seven-eighths of an inch below the button on the shirt, and similarly seven-eighths of an inch below the buttonhole on the opposite side. the chairman. you are speaking of the collar button itself, aren't you? mr. frazier. the collar button. the chairman. yes. mr. frazier. in each instance for these holes, the one through the button line and the one through the buttonhole line, the hole amounts to a ragged slit approximately one-half inch in height. it is oriented vertically, and the fibers of the cloth are protruding outward, that is, have been pushed from the inside out. i could not actually determine from the characteristics of the hole whether or not it was caused by a bullet. however, i can say that it was caused by a projectile of some type which exited from the shirt at that point and that is again assuming that when i first examined the shirt it was--it had not been altered from the condition it was in at the time the hole was made. mr. specter. what characteristics differ between the hole in the rear of the shirt and the holes in the front of the shirt which lead you to conclude that the hole in the rear of the shirt was caused by a bullet but which are absent as to the holes in the front of the shirt? mr. frazier. the hole in the front of the shirt does not have the round characteristic shape caused by a round bullet entering cloth. it is an irregular slit. it could have been caused by a round bullet, however, since the cloth could have torn in a long slitlike way as the bullet passed through it. but that is not specifically characteristic of a bullethole to the extent that you could say it was to the exclusion of being a piece of bone or some other type of projectile. mr. specter. have you now described all of the characteristics of the front of the shirt holes which you consider to be important? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. dulles. could i ask one question there. if the bullet, after entering, hit something that made it tumble or change, would that account for this change in the appearance of the exit through the shirt? mr. frazier. i think not. in my opinion it would not have been necessary, if i may put it that way, for the bullet to have turned sideways or partially sideways in order to make an elongated hole. mr. dulles. i see. mr. frazier. i think the effect in the front of the shirt is due more to the strength of the material being more in the horizontal rather than the vertical direction which caused the cloth to tear vertically rather than due to a change in the shape or size of the bullet or projectile. mr. dulles. or possibly the velocity of the bullet at that place, would that have anything to do with it? mr. frazier. i think the hole would not have been affected unless it was a very large change in velocity. the chairman. mr. frazier, i notice that the front of the shirt immediately around the hole you have just been describing and in fact on much of the front of the shirt is bloodsoaked. would that, with the other evidences you have seen there indicate to you as an expert that this was the exit of the bullet that had entered in the back of the coat as you have described it? mr. frazier. the presence of the blood would have in my opinion no value for determining which was entrance or exit, because i have seen entrance wounds which bleed extensively and exit wounds which bleed not at all and vice versa. it depends entirely on the type of bullet which strikes, whether or not it mutilates itself in the body, and probably more importantly it depends on the position of the person who is shot after the shooting occurs as to where the blood will be located on the garments. the chairman. may i put it this way, probably a little better. do the evidences that you see on this shirt indicate to you that this hole in the front of the shirt that you have just described was made by the bullet which entered in the rear. mr. frazier. i can say that this hole in the collar area could have been made by this bullet but i cannot say that the bullet which entered the back actually came out here or at some other place because i am not aware of the autopsy information as to the path of the bullet through the body. the chairman. i see. mr. frazier. but if the path of the bullet was such that it came through the body at the right angle, then one bullet could have caused both holes. the chairman. could have caused both holes. mr. frazier. yes. the chairman. that is sufficient. mr. dulles. is it correct that the blood on the shirt might well have been occasioned by the second wound rather than exclusively by the first wound? mr. frazier. yes; it could have come from any other wound on the body as well as this one. mr. specter. when you refer to any other wound, mr. frazier, are you referring to the head wound which is widely known to have been inflicted on the president at the time of the assassination? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. specter. did you have occasion to examine the president's tie or the tie purportedly worn by the president on november , ? mr. frazier. yes; i did. mr. specter. may the record show at this juncture that that tie has heretofore been marked as commission exhibit ? the chairman. yes; it may show that. mr. specter. what did you note, if anything, with respect to the tie, mr. frazier? mr. frazier. when the tie was examined by me in the laboratory i noted that the neck portion had been cut from one side of the knot. however, the knot remained in apparently its original condition. the only damage to the tie other than the fact that it had been cut, was a crease or nick in the left side of the tie when you consider the tie as being worn on a body. as you view the front of the tie it would be on the right side. this nick would be located in a corresponding area to the area in the shirt collar just below the button. mr. specter. as you now indicate on your own tie, you are indicating on the portion of the tie to your right? mr. frazier. if it was on my tie it would be on the left side of the tie. mr. specter. your left side. mr. frazier. the left side of my tie. there is a nick on the left side of the tie if you consider it as left and right according to the person wearing the tie. mr. specter. does the nick in the tie provide any indication of the direction of the missile? mr. frazier. the nick is elongated horizontally, indicating a possible horizontal direction but it does not indicate that the projectile which caused it was exiting or entering at that point. the fibers were not disturbed in a characteristic manner which would permit any conclusion in that connection. mr. specter. is the nick consistent with an exiting path? mr. frazier. oh, yes. mr. specter. is there any indication from the nature of the nick as to the nature of the projectile itself? mr. frazier. no, sir. mr. specter. is the nick consistent with a . millimeter bullet having caused the nick? mr. frazier. yes. any projectile could have caused the nick. in this connection there was no metallic residue found on the tie, and for that matter there was no metallic residue found on the shirt at the holes in the front. however, there was in the back. mr. specter. did any of the other---- mr. dulles. excuse me, on the back of the coat? mr. frazier. the shirt. mr. dulles. back of the coat and on the shirt? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. specter. did any of the other items of president kennedy's clothing which you have heretofore referred to contain any indications at all of any bullet holes or any other type of holes? mr. frazier. no, sir. mr. specter. mr. frazier, did you have occasion to examine the clothing which has heretofore been identified in prior commission proceedings as that worn by governor connally on november , ? mr. frazier. yes; i did. mr. specter. i now hand you what purports to be the governor's coat, and may the record show that has been heretofore marked as commission exhibit no. ? (at this point the chairman left the hearing room.) mr. dulles [presiding]. the record may so show. mr. specter. have you had opportunity heretofore to examine that coat? mr. frazier. yes; i have. mr. specter. what did your examination reveal with respect to the back side of the coat? mr. frazier. there was found on the coat by me when i first examined it, near the right sleeve - / inches from the seam where the sleeve attaches to the coat, and - / inches to the right of the midline when you view the back of the coat, a hole which is elongated in a horizontal direction to the length of approximately five-eights of an inch, and which had an approximate one-quarter inch height. mr. specter. were you able to determine from your examination of the governor's clothing whether or not they had been cleaned and pressed prior to the time you saw them? mr. frazier. yes; they had. mr. specter. is that different from or the same as the condition of the president's clothing which you have just described this morning? mr. frazier. it is different in that the president's clothing had not been cleaned. it had only been dried. the blood was dried. however, the governor's garments had been cleaned and pressed. mr. specter. had the president's clothing been pressed then? mr. frazier. no, sir. mr. specter. will you proceed to describe any other characteristics---- mr. dulles. had been dried artificially or let nature take its course? mr. frazier. it appeared to be air dried. mr. dulles. air dried, artificially? mr. frazier. i couldn't say whether any outside heat had been applied but it did not appear that any heat had been applied to the blood. mr. specter. proceed. mr. frazier. on the hole on the back of the coat although it had the general appearance and could have been a bullet hole, possibly because of the cleaning and pressing of the garment. i cannot state that it actually is a bullet hole nor the direction of the path of the bullet, if it were a bullet hole. mr. specter. is the nature of the opening consistent with being a bullet hole? mr. frazier. yes, sir; it is. mr. specter. and is it consistent with a bullet hole caused by a missile traveling from the back to the front of the wearer of the garment? mr. frazier. i could not determine that. mr. specter. you couldn't determine that it was, but could it have been? mr. frazier. it could have been, yes; either way. mr. specter. all right. will you now turn to the front side of the coat and state what, if any, damage you observed on the body of the garment? mr. frazier. when considered from the wearer's standpoint, on the right chest area of the coat there is a hole through the lining and the outer layer of the coat which is located - / inches from the right side seam line and also - / inches from the armpit which places this hole approximately inches to the right of the front right edge of the coat. this hole was approximately circular in shape, three-eights of an inch in diameter, and again possibly because of the cleaning and pressing of the garment, i could not determine whether it actually was a bullet hole or whether or not it entered or exited if it were a bullet hole. mr. specter. was the hole consistent with being an exit bullet hole? that is to say, could it have been caused by an exiting bullet? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. specter. did you find any damage on the right sleeve of the jacket? mr. frazier. yes, sir; on more or less the top portion of the right sleeve very near the end of the sleeve there is a very rough hole which penetrates both the outside layer, the lining and the inside layer of the sleeve. mr. specter. were you able to observe sufficient characteristics to formulate any conclusion as to the cause of that tear? mr. frazier. this also did not indicate direction from the condition of the fibers, possibly due to the cleaning and pressing of the garment. however, it could have been a bullet which struck the garment at an angle to the surface which caused a slight elongation. the hole was approximately five-eights of an inch in length, and three-eights of an inch in width. the elongation could also have been the result of a mutilated bullet having struck the garment or it could have been caused by a fold in the garment at the time the object or bullet struck. mr. specter. did you have occasion to examine the shirt, which was purportedly worn by governor connally, and which has heretofore been identified by the governor in commission proceedings, as that worn by him on november , ? mr. frazier. yes; i did. mr. specter. may the record show at this point that mr. frazier is examining the shirt heretofore identified on the back side with a photograph marked commission exhibit and on the front side with a photograph marked commission exhibit . now, referring to that shirt, mr. frazier, what, if anything, did you observe on the rear side by way of an imperfection, hole or defect? mr. frazier. i found a hole which is very ragged. an l-shaped tear actually is what it amounted to in the back of the shirt near the right sleeve, inches from the seam line where the sleeve attaches to the shirt, and - / inches to the right of the midline of the shirt, the right side being as you look at the back of the shirt. this tear amounted to a five-eights of an inch long horizontal and approximately one-half inch long vertical break in the cloth, with a very small tear located immediately to its right, as you look at the back of the shirt, which was approximately three-sixteenths of an inch in length. this hole corresponds in position to the hole in the back of the coat, governor connally's coat, identified as commission no. . mr. specter. were there sufficient characteristics observable to formulate a conclusion as to the cause and direction of that hole? mr. frazier. no, sir; there were no characteristics on which you could base a conclusion as to what caused it, whether or not it was a bullet and if it had been, what the direction of the projectile was. mr. specter. could it have been caused by a . -mm. bullet coming from the rear of the wearer toward his front? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. specter. referring now to the front side of the governor's shirt, what, if anything, did you observe with respect to a tear or a hole thereon, as to the body of the shirt? mr. frazier, i found in the right chest area of the shirt, considering the shirt when it is being worn, a very irregular tear more or less in the form of an "h," of the letter "h." this tear was approximately - / inches in height, with the crossbar tear being approximately inch in width, which caused a very irregularly shaped and enlarged hole in the front of the shirt. the hole is located inches from the right-side seam, and inches below the top of the right sleeve. the -inch figure is from the top of the right shoulder where the sleeve adjoins the yoke of the shirt. mr. specter. had that garment been cleaned and pressed, mr. frazier, prior to the time you examined it? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. specter. were there sufficient characteristics then remaining on the hole on the front side to enable you to formulate an opinion as to the cause of the hole? mr. frazier. no, sir. mr. specter. could it have been caused by a . millimeter bullet exiting from the chest of the governor? mr. frazier. yes, it could. mr. specter. now what, if anything---- mr. dulles. could i ask there, would the size and character of this hole indicate the condition of the bullet, i mean as to whether it was tumbling or whether it was a mutilated bullet or anything of that kind? mr. frazier. no, sir; it would not. mr. dulles. even a bullet in full flight, full velocity could have made this kind of a hole in the shirt? mr. frazier. it could have, particularly if the shirt had been wrinkled at the time it passed through, and particularly because the material in this shirt tore rather severely at the time the object passed through, indicating a very weak structure of the cotton fiber, so that it would tear out of all proportion to a stronger fabric. and for that reason, the shape of the hole could be affected by the condition of the material as well as any folds in the material or, as you say, by a mutilated bullet or a passage of a bullet through the cloth at an angle to the surface or the passing of a bullet partially sideways through the cloth. (discussion off the record.) mr. dulles. will you proceed? mr. specter. mr. frazier, what, if any, defect or hole did you observe on the right sleeve of the governor's shirt? mr. frazier. i found in the cuff of the shirt which is a french cuff, through both the outer and inner layers of the cuff, a hole which is ragged in contour, irregularly shaped, and which had more or less star-shaped tears extending outward from the hole into the material, located - / inches up from the end of the sleeve, and - / inches from the outside cuff link hole, through both, as i said, through both layers of the cuff, and the hole was in such a condition, possibly due to the washing of the material, that i could not determine what actually caused it or if it had been caused by a bullet, the direction of the path of the bullet with reference to entrance and exit. mr. specter. could those holes have been caused by a bullet passing through the governor's wrist from the dorsal or upper portion to the volar or palmar side? mr. frazier. yes; they could. mr. specter. did you have occasion to examine the trousers which have been heretofore identified in commission hearings as those worn by governor connally on november , ? mr. frazier. yes, i did. mr. specter. may the record show that mr. frazier has taken and is observing the trousers which have been identified in the record, through a picture of the front side, bearing commission exhibit no. and a picture of the rear side bearing commission exhibit no. . now, referring to those trousers, what if anything did you observe in the nature of a defect or hole, mr. frazier? mr. frazier. in the area which would be the left-knee area of the person wearing the trousers, there was a hole which is roughly circular in shape, and approximately one-quarter of an inch in diameter with some possible expansion of the hole due to slight tearing of the cloth at the outer margins of the hole. mr. specter. had the trousers been cleaned and pressed prior to your examination? mr. specter. yes, sir. mr. specter. were there sufficient characteristics available for you to formulate any conclusion as to the cause of that hole? mr. frazier. no, sir; i can say that it had the general appearance of a bullet hole but i could not determine the direction of the bullet if, in fact, it had been caused by a bullet. mr. specter. what are the characteristics which led you to believe that it had the characteristics of a bullet hole? mr. frazier. it has the roughly circular shape with slight tearing away from the edges of the material. mr. specter. is there any other hole on the trousers which could be a hole of exit? mr. frazier. no, sir. mr. specter. mr. frazier, did you have occasion to examine an automobile which was the vehicle used customarily by the president of the united states in parades? mr. frazier. yes; i did. mr. specter. when did that examination occur? mr. frazier. in the early morning hours of november , , at the secret service garage here in washington, d.c. mr. specter. i now hand you a photograph previously identified for the record as commission exhibit no. and ask you if that depicts the car which you examined? mr. frazier. yes, sir; it is. mr. specter. i hand you a subsequent exhibit of the commission, no. , showing the interior view of the automobile and ask you if that depicts the automobile which you examined? mr. frazier. yes, sir; however, it wasn't in this condition. it wasn't as clean as it is in exhibit . mr. specter. what was the condition with respect to cleanliness? mr. frazier. there were blood and particles of flesh scattered all over the hood, the windshield, in the front seat and all over the rear floor rugs, the jump seats, and over the rear seat, and down both sides of the side rails or tops of the doors of the car. mr. specter. is that condition depicted by commission exhibits and to the extent that they show the interior of the automobile? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. specter. what was the purpose of the examination which you made of the car at that time and place? mr. frazier. i examined the car to determine whether or not there were any bullet fragments present in it, embedded in the upholstery of the back of the front seat, or whether there were any impact areas which indicated that bullets or bullet fragments struck the inside of the car. mr. specter. with respect to the fragments first, what did your examination disclose? mr. frazier. we found three small lead particles lying on the rug in the rear seat area. these particles were located underneath or in the area which would be underneath the left jump seat. mr. specter. have those particles been identified during the course of your prior testimony? mr. frazier. no, sir; they have not? mr. specter. will you produce them at this time then, please? may we assign to this group of particles commission exhibit no. ? mr. dulles. these have not been discussed before, have they? mr. specter. they have not. mr. dulles. it shall be admitted as commission exhibit no. . (commission exhibit no. was marked for identification and received in evidence.) mr. specter. i move formally for their admission, then, into evidence at this time. mr. dulles. they shall be admitted. mr. specter. will you describe the three pieces of metal which are contained within this vial, please? mr. frazier. the three pieces of metal are lead. they were weighed immediately upon recovery and were found to weigh nine-tenths of a grain, seven-tenths of a grain, and seven-tenths of a grain, respectively. since that time small portions have been removed for spectrographic analysis and comparison with other bullets and bullet fragments. mr. specter. has that comparison been made with a whole bullet heretofore identified as commission exhibit which in other proceedings has been identified as the bullet from the connally stretcher? mr. frazier. yes, sir; the comparison was made by comparing exhibit with a bullet fragment found in the front seat of the presidential limousine and then comparing that fragment with these fragments from the rear seat of the automobile. mr. specter. for identification purposes, has that fragment from the front seat been heretofore identified during your prior testimony? mr. frazier. yes; it has. it bears commission no. . mr. specter. now, what did the comparative examination then disclose as among commission exhibits , , and ? mr. frazier. that examination was performed by a spectrographer, john f. gallagher, and i do not have the results of his examinations here, although i did ascertain that it was determined that the lead fragments were similar in composition. mr. specter. so that they could have come from, so that the fragments designated could have come from the same bullet as fragment designated ? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. specter. were the tests sufficient to indicate conclusively whether fragments did come from the fragment designated as ? mr. frazier. no, sir. mr. specter. did you personally find any other fragments in the president's car during the course of your examination? mr. frazier. no; i did not. mr. specter. now, where, according to information provided to you then, was the fragment designated commission exhibit found? mr. frazier. that was found by the secret service upon their examination of the limousine here in washington when it first arrived from dallas, and commission no. was delivered by deputy chief paul paterni and by a white house detail chief, floyd m. boring, to a liaison agent of the fbi, orrin bartlett, who delivered them to me in the laboratory at : p.m., on november , . mr. specter. does that constitute the total chain of possession then from the finder with the secret service into your hands, as reflected on the records of the fbi? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. specter. was there another fragment, was there any other fragment found in the front seat of the car? mr. frazier. yes. alongside the right side of the front seat, commission exhibit no. , which is the base portion of the jacket of a bullet, was found, and handled in identical manner to the exhibit . mr. dulles. and the front seat is the seat which would be the driver's seat? mr. frazier. yes. mr. dulles. and the secret service man on his right, i believe? mr. specter. mr. kellerman. mr. dulles. that was the seat from which this came? mr. frazier. commission exhibit was found on the seat right beside the driver, and exhibit was found on the floor beside the right side of the front seat. mr. specter. the right side of the front seat, mr. dulles, as the prior testimony shows was occupied by roy kellerman and the driver was william greer. mr. dulles. right. thank you. mr. specter. would you state what the chain of possession was from the time of discovery of exhibit until the time it came into your possession, based on the records of the fbi, please, if you have those records available? mr. frazier. yes, sir. it was delivered by secret service deputy chief paul paterni, and sac of the white house detail floyd m. boring of the secret service again, to special agent orrin bartlett of the fbi who delivered it to me at : p.m. on november , . mr. specter. are the records which you have just referred to relating to the chain of possession of exhibits and maintained by you in the normal course of your duties as an examiner of those items? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. specter. mr. frazier, is it possible for the fragments identified in commission exhibit to have come from the whole bullet heretofore identified as commission exhibit ? mr. frazier. i would say that based on weight it would be highly improbable that that much weight could have come from the base of that bullet since its present weight is--its weight when i first received it was . grains. mr. specter. referring now to . mr. frazier. exhibit , and its original normal weight would be to grains, and those three metal fragments had a total of . grains as i recall-- . grains. so it is possible but not likely since there is only a very small part of the core of the bullet missing. mr. specter. have you now described all of the bullet fragments which you found in the president's automobile? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. specter. was it your job to analyze all of the bullets or bullet fragments which were found in the president's car? mr. frazier. yes; it was, except for the spectrographic analysis of the composition. mr. specter. have you now described all of the bullet fragments which were brought to you by anyone else and identified as having been found in the president's car? mr. frazier. yes, sir; not this morning but at previous times during my testimony i have; yes. mr. specter. but then there is on the record now all of the identification of the metallic or bullet fragments found in connection with your examination of the president's car or which were examined by you after having been found by someone else? mr. frazier. no, sir. there is one other, it is not a metal particle but it is a residue of metal on the inside of the windshield. mr. specter. aside from that residue of the windshield which i am going to come to now, have we placed on the record a description of all of the bullets or bullet fragments? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. specter. now---- mr. dulles. just one moment. you mean bullet fragments related to the car or bullet fragments found anywhere? mr. specter. related to the president's automobile. mr. frazier. yes; you have. mr. specter. did you have occasion then to examine the windshield of the presidential limousine? mr. frazier. yes; i did. mr. specter. what did that examination disclose? mr. frazier. on the inside surface of the windshield there was a deposit of lead. this deposit was located when you look at the inside surface of the windshield, - / inches down from the top, inches from the left-hand side or driver's side of the windshield, and was immediately in front of a small pattern of star-shaped cracks which appeared in the outer layer of the laminated windshield. mr. dulles. what do you mean by the "outer layer of the laminated windshield"? mr. frazier. the windshield is composed of two layers with a very thin layer of plastic in between which bonds them together in the form of safety glass. the inside layer of the glass was not broken, but the outside layer immediately on the outside of the lead residue had a very small pattern of cracks and there was a very minute particle of glass missing from the outside surface. mr. dulles. and the outside surface was the surface away from where the occupants were sitting? mr. frazier. that is correct; yes. mr. dulles. and the inside surface was the surface nearest the occupants? mr. frazier. yes. mr. specter. what do those characteristics indicate as to which side of the windshield was struck? mr. frazier. it indicates that it could only have been struck on the inside surface. it could not have been struck on the outside surface because of the manner in which the glass broke and further because of the lead residue on the inside surface. the cracks appear in the outer layer of the glass because the glass is bent outward at the time of impact which stretches the outer layer of the glass to the point where these small radial or wagon spoke-wagon wheel spoke-type cracks appear on the outer surface. mr. dulles. so the pressure must have come from the inside and not from the outside against the glass? mr. frazier. yes, sir; that is correct. mr. dulles. as far as the car is concerned from the back to the front? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. dulles. not from outside against the glass--from the front against the glass. mr. frazier. that is right. mr. specter. was a comparison made of the lead residues on the inside of the windshield with any of the bullet fragments recovered about which you have heretofore testified? mr. frazier. yes. they were compared with the bullet fragment found on the front seat, which in turn was compared with commission . the lead was found to be similar in composition. however, that examination in detail was made by a spectrographer, special agent john f. gallagher. mr. specter. was that examination made in the regular course of examining procedures by the fbi? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. specter. and was that information made available to you through the normal conference procedures among fbi examiners? mr. frazier. yes, sir. he submitted his report to me and i prepared the formal report of the entire examination. mr. specter. are his report and your formal report a part of the permanent record of the fbi then? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. specter. i now show you commission exhibit no. which has heretofore been identified as a picture of the windshield of the presidential limousine and i ask you if that is the crack about which you have just testified? mr. frazier. yes; it is. this exhibit is a photograph which i took on the d of november, showing a view from the front toward the rear of the presidential limousine and showing the crack in the glass and the lead residue on the inside surface. mr. specter. would you produce at this time the lead residue obtained by you from that inside surface, please? may it please the commission, i would like to mark this as commission exhibit and move for its admission into evidence at this time. mr. dulles. it shall be admitted into evidence. (commission exhibit no. was marked for identification and received in evidence.) mr. dulles. may i just ask a question of you, mr. specter, and possibly of the witness. i assume that the windshield we are now discussing is the windshield that was exhibited to the commission several weeks ago and which members of the commission examined? mr. specter. it was, mr. dulles, and we can establish that, of record, through another commission exhibit which is , which was the number given to the windshield and we have a reproduction here through the photograph. mr. dulles. you don't have the windshield here today, though? mr. specter. no, we do not. mr. dulles. it would be the same windshield that the commission saw. mr. specter. we can establish it through the witness, too. mr. frazier, for that purpose can you identify what is depicted in a photograph heretofore identified as commission exhibit ? mr. frazier. yes, sir; this is a photograph of the very small pattern of cracks in the windshield which was on the presidential limousine at the time i examined it, and which i also later examined in the fbi laboratory. (discussion off the record.) mr. specter. mr. frazier, have you now described all of your findings on the windshield of the presidential limousine? mr. frazier. yes, sir; that is concerning the glass itself and not the molding around the windshield. mr. specter. will you then move to the molding around the windshield and state what, if anything, you found there? mr. frazier. on the strip of chrome which goes across the top of the windshield and again on the passenger side of the windshield or the inside surface, i found a dent in the chrome which had been caused by some projectile which struck the chrome on the inside surface. mr. specter. was there one dent or more than one dent or what? mr. frazier. one dent. mr. specter. will you identify what is depicted by a photograph heretofore marked as commission exhibit ? mr. frazier. yes, sir; this is a photograph which i took of this dent at that time, showing the damaged chrome, just to the right of the rearview mirror support at the top of the windshield. mr. specter. did your examination of the president's limousine disclose any other holes or markings which could have conceivably been caused by a bullet striking the automobile or any part of the automobile? mr. frazier. no, sir. mr. dulles. i wonder if i could go back just a moment to the indentation in the chrome around the windshield at the top of the windshield, but on the inside, could that have been caused by a fragment of a bullet? mr. frazier. yes, it very easily could have. it would not have been caused, for instance, by a bullet which was traveling at its full velocity from a rifle, but merely from a fragment traveling at fairly high velocity which struck the inside surface of the chrome. mr. dulles. could that have been caused by any of the fragments that you have identified as having been found on the front seat or near the front seat of the car? mr. frazier. yes; i believe it could have by either, in fact, of the two fragments of rifle bullets found in the front seat. mr. dulles. thank you. mr. specter. mr. frazier, assume certain facts to be true for purposes of expressing an opinion on a hypothetical situation, to wit: that president kennedy was struck by a . millimeter bullet which passed through his body entering on the rear portion of his neck centimeters to the left of his right acromion process and centimeters below his mastoid process, with a striking velocity of approximately , feet per second, and exited after passing through a fascia channel in his body, through the lower anterior third of his neck with an exit velocity of approximately , to , feet per second; and that bullet had then traveled from the point where it exited from his neck and struck the front windshield in some manner. what effect would that have had on the front windshield and the subsequent flight of the missile? mr. frazier. it would have shattered the front windshield. it would have caused a very large, relatively large hole, approximately three-eighths to an inch in diameter with radiating cracks extending outward into the glass for several inches, even to the side of the glass. mr. dulles. it would have penetrated the windshield? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. specter. would the missile then have proceeded in a forward direction? mr. frazier. yes, sir; it would. mr. specter. do you have an opinion as to how far it would have gone? mr. frazier. until it struck some other object in the area of approximately a mile. mr. specter. now assume the same sequence with respect to exit velocity from the point of the president's neck at the same rate of , to , feet per second, and assume still further that the bullet had, the whole bullet had, struck the metal framing which you have heretofore described and identified. what effect would that have had on the metal framing? mr. frazier. it would have torn a hole in the chrome, penetrated the framing both inside and outside of the car. i can only assume, since i haven't tested the metal of that particular car, i would assume that the bullet would completely penetrate both the chrome, the metal supporting the chrome, on the inside, and the body metal on the outside which supports the windshield of the car. mr. specter. now, assume the same set of factors as to the exit velocity from the president's neck. what effect would that bullet have had on any other portion of the automobile which it might have struck in the continuation of its flight? mr. frazier. in my opinion it would have penetrated any other metal surface and, of course, any upholstery surface depending on the nature of the material as to how deep it would penetrate or how many successive layers it may have penetrated. mr. specter. was there any evidence in any portion of the car that the automobile was struck by a bullet which exited from the president's neck under the circumstances which i have just asked you to assume? mr. frazier. no, sir; there was not. mr. specter. and had there been any such evidence would your examination of the automobile have uncovered such an indication or such evidence? mr. frazier. yes, sir; i feel that it would have. mr. specter. was your examination a thorough examination of all aspects of the interior of the automobile? mr. frazier. yes, sir; for our purpose. however, we did not tear out all of the rugs on the floor, for instance. we examined the rugs carefully for holes, for bullet furroughs, for fragments. we examined the nap of the rug, in the actual nap of the rug, for fragments and bullet holes. we pulled the rug back as far as we could turn it back and even tore the glue or adhesive material loose around the cracks at the edges of the rug so we could observe the cracks to see whether they had been enlarged, and we examined all of the upholstery covering, on the back of the front seat, on the doors, and in the rear seat compartment, the jump seats, the actual rear seat, the back of the rear seat, and we examined the front seat in a similar manner, and we found no bullet holes or other bullet impact areas, other than the one on the inside of the windshield and the dent inside the windshield chrome. mr. specter. had any of those portions of the automobile been struck by the bullet exiting from the president's neck, which i have described hypothetically for you, would you have found some evidence of striking? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. dulles. when was this examination made? mr. frazier. between and : a.m. on november , . mr. dulles. that was about hours, hours after the assassination? mr. frazier. yes, sir; to hours. mr. dulles. fourteen to sixteen hours. mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. dulles. may i ask, do you know in whose custody the automobile was prior to your examination from the time it was shipped on the airplane? mr. frazier. when i arrived there were two secret service men present but i do not recall their names. they were introduced to me, and they were there during the entire examination but i don't recall their actual names. the car was under guard in the secret service garage in washington, d.c. other than that i do not know. mr. dulles. was this a joint examination by you and by the secret service or was the examination made by the fbi? mr. frazier. no, sir; by the fbi at the request of the secret service who had already examined the interior of the car for personal effects and other items. mr. dulles. did they certify to you or advise you that the car had been under their custody during this -to -hour period? mr. frazier. i don't recall whether they actually stated that. what they stated was that the car had immediately been flown to washington and placed in this garage and kept under surveillance the entire time. mr. dulles. thank you. mr. specter. was a fragment of metal brought to you which was identified as coming from the wrist of governor connally? mr. frazier. it was identified to me as having come from the arm of governor connally. mr. specter. will you produce that fragment at this time, please? mr. frazier. this one does not have a commission number as yet. mr. specter. may it please the commission, i would like to have this fragment marked as commission exhibit . (commission exhibit no. was marked for identification and received in evidence.) mr. specter. now, referring to a fragment heretofore marked as q for fbi record purposes, and now marked as commission exhibit no. , will you describe that fragment for us, please? mr. frazier. yes, sir; this is a small fragment of metal which weighed one-half a grain when i first examined it in the laboratory. it is a piece of lead, and could have been a part of a bullet or a core of a bullet. however, it lacks any physical characteristics which would permit stating whether or not it actually originated from a bullet. mr. specter. are its physical characteristics consistent with having come from commission exhibit ? mr. frazier. yes, sir; it could have. mr. specter. are they consistent with that fragment identified as commission exhibit no. , as having come from fragment identified as commission exhibit ? mr. frazier. which is ? mr. specter. is the one which was found on the front seat. mr. frazier. yes, sir; it could have. mr. specter. were the characteristics of the fragment identified as commission exhibit consistent with having come from the fragment heretofore identified as commission exhibit ? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. specter. would you set forth from the records of the fbi, if you have those before you, the chain of possession of the fragment identified as commission exhibit , please? mr. frazier. commission exhibit , that is the one from governor connally's arm, was delivered to me in the fbi laboratory on november , , by special agent vincent e. drain of the dallas office of the fbi, who stated he had secured this item from capt. will fritz of the dallas police department. i do not know where captain fritz obtained it. mr. specter. referring back for just a moment to the coat identified as that worn by governor connally, mr. frazier, was there any observable angle of elevation or declination from the back side of the governor's coat to the front side of the governor's coat? mr. frazier. yes, sir; there was, approximately a -degree downward angle. mr. specter. measuring from---- mr. frazier. that is---- mr. specter. back to front or front to back? mr. frazier. from back towards the front. mr. specter. how about the same question as to the governor's shirt? mr. frazier. i would say it was approximately the same angle or slightly less. i think we measured approximately degrees. mr. specter. was that from the front to back or from the back to front of the governor's shirt? mr. frazier. that would be from the back towards the front. downward from back towards the front. mr. specter. mr. dulles, those questions complete the ones which we have to ask, sir. mr. frazier, one additional question: do you have any knowledge through any source whatsoever of any bullets or bullet fragments found anywhere in the vicinity of the assassination other than those which you have already testified to, which were in the car, or the whole bullet from the connally stretcher or the fragments from governor connally's wrist? mr. frazier. no, sir; i have never heard of any nor have any been submitted to me. mr. specter. during the regular processing of the fbi examination in this case, would all such bullets or bullet fragments be brought to you for examination in accordance with your assignment to this matter generally? mr. frazier. yes; they would. mr. specter. were any metallic fragments brought to you which were purported to have been found in the head of president kennedy? mr. dulles. or body? mr. specter. or body of president kennedy? mr. frazier. yes; they were. on november , , at : a.m., the two metal fragments in this container were delivered to me in the fbi laboratory by special agent james w. sibert, and special agent francis o'neill of the baltimore office of the fbi who stated they had obtained these in the autopsy room at the naval hospital near washington, d.c., where they were present when they were removed from the head of president kennedy. mr. specter. is there any specification as to the portion of the president's head from which they were removed? mr. frazier. no, sir; they told me that there had been numerous particles in the head but only these two had been removed, the others being very small. mr. specter. may it please the commission i would like to have those marked and admitted into evidence as commission exhibit no. . mr. dulles. it shall be so marked and admitted under those numbers. (commission exhibit no. was marked for identification and received in evidence.) mr. specter. in the event we have not already had admitted into evidence, i move, mr. dulles, for the admission into evidence of which was the fragment from governor connally's arm. mr. dulles. that shall be admitted. mr. specter. moving back to will you describe those fragments indicating their weight and general composition? mr. frazier. these fragments consisted of two pieces of lead, one weighed . grains. the other weighed . grain. they were examined spectrographically so their present weight would be somewhat less since a very small amount would be needed for spectrographic analysis. mr. specter. was a comparison made between or among these two fragments with the other metal from the bullets heretofore identified as commission exhibits , , , , and ? mr. frazier. yes; they were. mr. specter. what did that examination disclose? mr. frazier. possibly my numbers do not agree with those you have. these two particles from the president's head were compared with the lead of exhibit . mr. specter. which is the fragment from the arm of governor connally? mr. frazier. yes, sir; they were compared with the lead scraping from the inside of the windshield. mr. specter. which is exhibit . mr. frazier. and with the three lead fragments found on the rear floorboard carpet of the limousine. mr. specter. which is exhibit . mr. frazier. and they were found to be similar in metallic composition. mr. specter. can you state with any more certainty---- mr. frazier. excuse me, one thing. these, as a group, were compared with the bullet fragment, commission exhibit , which was found on the front seat of the automobile, which also was found to be similar in metallic composition. mr. specter. is it possible to state with any more certainty whether or not any of those fragments came from the same bullet? mr. frazier. not definitely, no; only that they are of similar lead composition. mr. specter. have you now described fully all of the relevant characteristics of the fragments identified as commission exhibit ? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. specter. are there any other bullets or bullet fragment or metallic substances of any sort connected with this case in any way which you have examined which you have not already testified to here today or on your prior appearance? mr. frazier. no, sir; that is all of them. mr. dulles. is there anything further? mr. specter. no. mr. dulles. thank you very much, mr. frazier. the commission will reconvene at : . (whereupon, at : p.m., the president's commission recessed.) afternoon session testimony of dr. alfred g. olivier the president's commission reconvened at p.m. the chairman. the commission will come to order. mr. specter, has the doctor been sworn yet? mr. specter. no, sir; he has not. the chairman. doctor, would you raise your right hand and be sworn, please? do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give in the matter before this commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? dr. olivier. yes, sir. the chairman. you may be seated. mr. specter. state your full name for the record. dr. olivier. dr. alfred g. olivier. mr. specter. what is your occupation or profession? dr. olivier. a supervisory research veterinarian and i work for the department of the army at edgewood arsenal, md. mr. specter. would you describe the nature of your duties at that arsenal, please? dr. olivier. investigating the wound ballistics of various bullets and other military missiles. mr. specter. would you describe the general nature of the tests which are carried on at edgewood arsenal? dr. olivier. for example, with a bullet we run tissue studies getting the retardation of the bullet through the tissues, the penetration, various characteristics of it. we use as good tissue simulant percent gelatin. this has a drag coefficient of muscle tissue and makes an excellent homogenous medium to study the action of the bullet. we also use animal parts and parts of cadavers where necessary to determine the characteristics of these things. mr. specter. would you set forth your educational background briefly, please? dr. olivier. yes; i did years of preveterinary work at the university of new hampshire and years of veterinary school at the university of pennsylvania, and i hold a degree doctor of veterinary medicine at the university of pennsylvania. mr. specter. in what year did you complete your educational work? dr. olivier. . mr. specter. would you outline your experience in the field subsequent to ? dr. olivier. in this field? mr. specter. yes, sir. dr. olivier. i came to edgewood arsenal, then the army chemical center, in , and originally to work, take charge of the animal colonies but immediately i got interested in the research and started working in the field of wound ballistics and have been in it ever since, and am presently chief of the wound ballistics branch. mr. specter. have you been in charge of a series of tests performed to determine certain wound ballistics on circumstances analogous to the underlying facts on wounds inflicted upon president kennedy and governor connally on november , ? dr. olivier. yes; i have. mr. specter. and in the course of those tests what weapon was used? dr. olivier. it was identified as commission exhibit . it was a . mm. mannlicher-carcano rifle. mr. specter. did the designation, commission exhibit no. , appear on the body of that rifle? dr. olivier. yes; it did. mr. specter. what type of bullets were used in the tests which you performed? dr. olivier. we used the western ammunition, western being a division of olin industries, winchester western, it was lot , to . mm. round. has a muzzle velocity of approximately , feet per second. mr. specter. and were those bullets obtained by you upon information provided to you by the commission's staff as to the identity of the bullets which were believed to have been used during the assassination? dr. olivier. yes; i first got the identity from the people at aberdeen proving grounds and then i further checked with the commission to see if that was right before ordering this type of ammunition. mr. specter. and where were those bullets obtained from? dr. olivier. i obtained rounds from remington at bridgeport. conn., and dr. dziemian obtained another rounds, i believe, from winchester in new haven. mr. specter. did you perform certain tests to determine the wound ballistics and include in that the penetration power of the mannlicher-carcano rifle, which you referred to, firing the western cartridge co. bullet by comparison with other types of bullets? dr. olivier. we didn't fire any of the others at the same time. these had been fired previously. we have all these records for comparison. mr. specter. was the mannlicher-carcano rifle then fired for comparison purposes with the other bullets where you already had your experience? dr. olivier. no; it was fired for the purposes for which--to try to shed some light on say the factors leading to the assassination and all, not for comparison with the other bullets. mr. specter. i now show you a photograph which is marked as commission exhibit no. , may it please the commission, and ask you if this photograph was prepared by you in conjunction with the study on the mannlicher-carcano and the western cartridge co. bullet? dr. olivier. yes; it was. mr. specter. would you explain to the commission what that photograph depicts? dr. olivier. actually, the bullet passed through two gelatin blocks. this was done as part of an energy study to see the amount of energy imparted to the block of gelatin taking a high-speed motion picture. these blocks show a record of the permanent cavity left in the gelatin. this is not necessarily the total penetration. this bullet when it comes out of the second block still has quite a bit of penetrating power. quite a few of these bullets would go into a dirt bank and imbed themselves so deeply that they couldn't be recovered. mr. specter. i now show you commission exhibit no. which is a photograph, and ask you to state for the record what that photograph represents? dr. olivier. this has been adopted as standard military ammunition of the u.s. army. it is known as the nato round. it is m- ball fired in the m- rifle. it has a different--it is a full jacketed military bullet but has a different point, what they call a no jag point, a sharp point. it has tumbling characteristics. when it goes in a certain block it tumbles and does the same in the body. it is more efficient in producing wounds than the bullet under study. mr. specter. how do the impact, penetration, and other characteristics of the bullet depicted in compare with the western cartridge co. bullet fired from the mannlicher-carcano in ? dr. olivier. it has better wounding potential due to the quicker tumbling but it would not have as good penetrating ability, when it starts tumbling and releasing all that energy doing all that damage it comes to a stop in a shorter distance. mr. specter. would the western bullet be characterized as having the qualities of a more stable bullet? dr. olivier. yes; it would. you mean in the target? mr. specter. yes, sir. dr. olivier. yes. mr. specter. the stability in the air would be the same for any missile, would it not? dr. olivier. to be a good bullet they should be stable in air in order to hit what you are aiming at, yes. mr. specter. then would the characteristics of stability in the air be the same for either of the two bullets you have heretofore referred to? dr. olivier. essentially so. mr. specter. i now hand you photograph marked as commission exhibit no. and ask you to state what that depicts? dr. olivier. this is a winchester roberts soft nose hunting bullet. this one pictured fired from right to left instead of left to right and the bullet didn't even go out of the block. it deforms almost immediately on entering the block and releases its energy rather rapidly. this type of ammunition is illegal for military use. we are just studying the wounding characteristics of various bullets, but this is not a military bullet. mr. specter. how does it compare with the western bullet? dr. olivier. it would be better for wounding, better for hunting purposes. but as i said, it isn't acceptable as a military bullet. mr. specter. how does it compare with respect to penetration power? dr. olivier. much less than the mannlicher-carcano. mr. specter. in the normal course of the work that you perform for the u.s. army at edgewood arsenal, do you have occasion to simulate substances for testing purposes on determining the path of a bullet through the human body? dr. olivier. yes; we do use animal tissues or gelatin as simulants for tissues of the human body. mr. specter. has the autopsy report on president john f. kennedy been made available to you for your review? dr. olivier. yes; it has. mr. specter. and subsequent to your review of that report, did you make an effort to simulate the body tissue through which the bullet is reported to have passed through the president in accordance with the report of the autopsy surgeon; entering on the rear of his neck, cm. below the mastoid process and cm. to the left of the right acromion process, passing through a fascia channel, striking the trachea and exiting through the lower anterior of the neck? dr. olivier. yes; i did. mr. specter. what substance did you prepare to simulate that portion of the president's body? dr. olivier. we determined the distance on various people by locating this anatomical region and using people of various sizes we found that regardless of general body build, the distance penetrated was around - / to - / cm. as a consequence, i used gelatin blocks percent gelatin cut at - / cm. lengths and also used horsemeat and goatmeat placed in a box so that--this was a little harder to get the exact length but that varied between - / and - / cm. of muscle tissue. mr. specter. did that simulate, then, the portion of the president's body through which the bullet is reported to have passed, as closely as you could for your testing purposes? dr. olivier. as closely as we could for these test purposes; yes. mr. specter. i now hand you a photograph marked as commission exhibit no. and ask you to testify as to what that depicts? dr. olivier. this is a box containing--i couldn't say looking at it whether it is the horsemeat or the goatmeat but one of the two. the distance traveled through that meat would be - / to - / centimeters. it is also covered with clothing and clipped goatskin on the entrance and exit sides, and behind that are the screens for measuring the exit velocity. we had already determined the striking velocity by firing i believe it was--i have it right here if you want---- mr. specter. before you proceed to that, describe the type of screens which are shown in the picture which were used to measure exit velocity, if you please? dr. olivier. yes. these screens are known as the break-type screen. they are silver imprinted on paper and when the bullet passes through it breaks the current. when it passes through the first screen it breaks the current activating a chronograph, counting chronograph. when it passes through the second screen it stops. this is over a known distance, and so the time that it took to pass between the first and the second will give you the average velocity halfway between the two screens. mr. specter. i now hand you a photograph marked commission exhibit and ask you to describe what that shows? dr. olivier. this was a similar setup used for firing through gelatin. it had clothing and skin over the entrance side only. if it had been placed on the other side it would have just flown off. mr. specter. and that is similar to that depicted in ? dr. olivier. essentially; yes. mr. specter. except that it is---- dr. olivier. gelatin instead of the tissues. mr. specter. now at what range was the firing performed on the gelatin, goatmeat and horsemeat? dr. olivier. this firing was done at a -yard range. mr. specter. and what gun was used? dr. olivier. the . mannlicher-carcano that was marked commission exhibit . mr. specter. and what bullets were used? dr. olivier. the western ammunition lot , , . mannlicher-carcano. mr. specter. and was there any substance placed over the gelatin, horsemeat and goatmeat? dr. olivier. yes; over the gelatin we had clothing; had a suit, shirt and undershirt, and underneath that a clipped goatskin. the same thing was over the meat, and on the other side of the meat was also clipped goatskin. mr. specter. would there be any significant difference to the test by leaving out the undershirt if the president had not worn an undershirt? dr. olivier. no. mr. specter. so that the circumstance was simulated with the actual type clothing and a protective skin over the substance just as realistically as you could make it? dr. olivier. yes. mr. specter. what measurement was obtained as to the entrance velocity of the bullet at the distance of yards which you described? dr. olivier. the striking velocity at an average of three shots was , feet per second. mr. specter. and what was the average exit velocity on each of the substances used? dr. olivier. for the gelatin the average exit velocity was , feet per second. the horsemeat, the average exit velocity was , feet per second. and the goatmeat the average exit velocity was , feet per second. mr. specter. i now hand you a photograph marked commission exhibit and ask you what that picture represents? dr. olivier. this is one of the gelatin blocks used in that test. it shows the type of track left by the bullet passing through it. that bullet is very stable. passing through the body and muscle, it would make a similar type wound. of course, you couldn't observe it that nicely. mr. specter. would you describe that as being a straight line? dr. olivier. yes. mr. specter. i now hand you a picture marked commission exhibit no. and ask you what that represents? dr. olivier. these are pieces of clipped goatskin, clipped very shortly. there is still some hair on it. these were placed, these particular ones were placed over the tissues. this would be placed over the entrance side of the animal. mr. specter. when you say "this," you are referring to a piece of goatskin which is marked "enter"? dr. olivier. marked "enter." the one marked "exit" was placed on the far side of the tissues and the bullet passed through that after it came out of the tissues. mr. specter. for the record, will you describe the characteristics, which are shown on the goatskin at the point of entry, please? dr. olivier. at the point of entry the wound holes through the skin are for all purposes round. on the exit side they are more elongated, two of them in particular are a little more elongated. the bullet had started to become slightly unstable coming out. mr. specter. and how about the third or lower bullet on the skin designated exit? dr. olivier. that hole appears as more stable than the other two. in all three cases the bullet is still pretty stable. the gelatin blocks, there were gelatin blocks placed behind these things too, and for all practical purposes, the tracks through them still indicated a stable bullet. mr. specter. are there any other conclusions which you would care to add to those which you have already indicated, resulting from the tests you have heretofore described? dr. olivier. well, it means that the bullet that passed through the president's neck had lost very little of its wounding potential and was capable of doing a great deal of damage in penetrating. i might mention one thing showing how great its penetrating ability was. that say on one of the gelatin shots, it went through a total, counting the gelatin block, it went through plus the backing up blocks of gelatin, it went through a total of - / centimeters of gelatin, was still traveling and buried itself in a mound of earth so it has terrific penetrating ability. this means that had the bullet that passed through the president's neck hit in the car or anywhere you would have seen evidence, a good deal of evidence. mr. specter. dr. olivier, in the regular course of your work for the u.s. army, do you have occasion to perform tests on animal materials where the characteristics of those animals materials are sufficiently similar to human bodies to make a determination of the effect of the bullet wounds in human bodies? dr. olivier. yes; i do. mr. specter. and did you have occasion to make a test on goat material in connection with the experiments which you ran? dr. olivier. yes. mr. specter. are you familiar with the wounds inflicted on governor connally on november , ? dr. olivier. yes; from reading the surgeon's report and also from talking to dr. gregory and dr. shaw. mr. specter. did you have access to the medical reports of parkland hospital concerning the wounds of governor connally in all respects? dr. olivier. yes. mr. specter. and did you have occasion to discuss those wounds in great detail with dr. shaw and dr. gregory when they were present in washington, d.c. on april , , preparatory to their testifying before this commission? dr. olivier. yes; i did. mr. specter. what was the nature of the wound on governor connally's back? dr. olivier. the surgeon's report described it as about centimeters long, its longest dimension, and it is hard for me to remember reading it or discussing it with him but i did both. apparently it was a jagged wound. he said a wound like this consists of two things, usually a defect in the epidermis and a central hole which is small, and he could put his finger in it so it was a fairly large wound. mr. specter. what was the path of the bullet in a general way, based on the information provided to you concerning governor connally's wound in the back? dr. olivier. apparently it passed along the rib. i don't recall which rib it was but passed the fifth rib, passed along this rib causing a fracture that i believe removed about centimeters of the rib through fragments through the pleura, lacerating the lung. i asked dr. shaw directly whether he thought the bullet had gone through the pleural cavity and he said he didn't believe that it had, that the damage was done by the rib fragments. then the bullet exited as described somewhat below the right nipple. mr. specter. did you perform a test on goat substance to endeavor to measure the reduction in velocity of a missile similar to the one which passed through governor connally? dr. olivier. yes; i did. mr. specter. why was goat substance selected for that purpose in the testing procedure? dr. olivier. we usually use this in our work so we are familiar with it. i am not saying it is the only substance that could be used, but we were not using any unknown procedures or any procedures that we hadn't used already. mr. specter. does it closely simulate the nature of a wound in the human body? dr. olivier. in this particular instance it did. mr. specter. was the wound inflicted on the goat, then, subjected to x-ray analysis for the purpose of determining the precise nature of the wound and for comparison purposes with that wound---- dr. olivier. yes; it was. mr. specter. inflicted on connally? dr. olivier. yes; it was. mr. specter. i now hand you an x-ray marked commission exhibit and ask you to state what that shows? dr. olivier. it shows a fractured rib. from this you wouldn't be able to--well, if you were a better radiologist than i was, you might be able to tell which one, but it was the eighth left rib. it shows a comminuted fracture extending some distance along the rib. mr. specter. i now hand you commission exhibit no. , which is a photograph, and ask you to testify as to what that depicts, please? dr. olivier. this is a photograph taken from the same x-ray again showing the comminuted fracture of the eighth left rib. mr. specter. and is that a photograph then of the x-ray designated commission exhibit ? dr. olivier. yes; it is. mr. specter. did you have an opportunity to observe personally the x-rays showing the wound on governor connally's rib? dr. olivier. yes; i did. mr. specter. and how do those x-rays compare with the wound inflicted as depicted in exhibits and ? dr. olivier. they are very similar. mr. specter. when the wounds were inflicted, as depicted in and , what weapon was used? dr. olivier. this was again the . millimeter mannlicher-carcano rifle. mr. specter. and what bullets were used? dr. olivier. the . millimeter western ammunition lot , . mr. specter. and what distance was utilized? dr. olivier. on the goat the distance was yards. mr. specter. and was there any covering over the goat? dr. olivier. yes. there was a suit, shirt, and undershirt. mr. specter. what was the entrance velocity of the bullet? dr. olivier. striking velocity for an average of shots was , feet per second. mr. specter. and what was the exit velocity? dr. olivier. the exit velocity was , feet per second. mr. specter. i now hand you a box containing a bullet, which has been marked as commission exhibit no. , and ask you if you have ever seen that bullet before? dr. olivier. yes; i have. mr. specter. and under what circumstances have you previously seen that bullet? dr. olivier. this was the bullet that was fired through the goat. it went through the velocity screens into some cotton waste, dropped out of the bottom of that and was lying on the floor. it was picked up immediately afterwards still warm, so we knew it was the bullet that had fired that particular shot. mr. specter. was that fired through the goat depicted in the photographs and x-ray, and ? dr. olivier. yes; that was the goat. mr. specter. would you describe for the record, verbally please, the characteristics of that bullet? dr. olivier. the bullet has been quite flattened. the lead core is extruding somewhat from the rear. we weighed the bullet. it weighs . grains. mr. specter. i now hand you commission exhibit , which has been heretofore in commission proceedings identified as the bullet found on the stretcher of governor connally, and ask if you have had an opportunity to compare with ? dr. olivier. yes; i have. mr. specter. and what did you find on that comparison? dr. olivier. the bullet recovered on the stretcher has not been flattened as much, but there is a suggestion of flattening there from a somewhat similar occurrence. also, the lead core has extruded from the rear in the same fashion, and it appears that some of it has even broken from the rear. mr. specter. is there some flattening on both of those bullets in approximately the same areas toward the rear of the missiles? dr. olivier. in the bullet, our particular bullet is flattened the whole length, but you say towards the rear? mr. specter. you say our bullet; you mean ? dr. olivier. yes, is flattened. no. is flattened more towards the rear. mr. specter. are there any other conclusions which you have to add to the tests performed on the goat? dr. olivier. well, again in this test it demonstrates that the bullet that was stable when it struck in this fashion again lost very little velocity in going through that much goat tissue. incidentally, the amount of goat tissue it traversed was probably somewhat less than the governor, but in any case it indicates the bullet would have had a lot of remaining velocity and could have done a lot of damage. another thing that hasn't been brought up is the velocity screen immediately behind the goat, the imprint of the bullet left on it was almost the length of the bullet. mr. specter. what does that indicate? dr. olivier. this indicates that the bullet was now no longer traveling straight but either traveling sideways or tumbling end over end at the time it hit the screen. mr. specter. and that was after the point of exit from the goat? dr. olivier. yes. mr. specter. are there any other conclusions which you found from the studies on the goat? dr. olivier. no, i believe that is all i can think of right at this moment. mr. specter. in the regular course of your work for the u.s. army, do you have occasion to perform tests on parts of human cadavers to determine the effects of bullets on human beings? dr. olivier. yes, i do. mr. specter. and was a series of tests performed under your supervision on the portions of human cadavers simulated to the wound inflicted on the wrist of governor connally? dr. olivier. yes. mr. specter. were you familiar with the nature of the wound on governor connally's wrist prior to performing those tests? dr. olivier. yes, i was. mr. specter. what was the source of your information on those wounds? dr. olivier. i had read the surgeon's report, also talked with dr. gregory, the surgeon who had done the surgery, and had looked at the x-rays. mr. specter. had you had an opportunity to discuss the wounds with dr. gregory and view the x-rays taken at parkland hospital, here in the commission headquarters? dr. olivier. yes; i did. mr. specter. on april , ? dr. olivier. yes. mr. specter. i now hand you an x-ray marked as commission exhibit , and ask you what that depicts? dr. olivier. this is a comminuted fracture of the distal end of the radius of a human arm. mr. specter. and in what manner was that wound caused? dr. olivier. it was caused by a bullet from the commission exhibit . this was again the . -millimeter mannlicher-carcano western ammunition lot , . mr. specter. fired at what distance? dr. olivier. fired at a distance of yards. mr. specter. and was there anything protecting the wrist at the time of impact? dr. olivier. not protection but there was again clothing, this time suit material or suit lining, at least suit material and shirt. i am not sure about the lining. i can tell you. i have it right here. suit material, suit lining material, and shirt material. mr. specter. i now hand you a photograph marked as commission exhibit and ask you what that represents? dr. olivier. this is a photograph taken from the x-ray, commission exhibit . mr. specter. will you describe for the record the details of the injuries shown on and , please? dr. olivier. this is a comminuted fracture of the distal end of the radius. it was struck directly by the bullet. it passed through, not directly through but through at an oblique angle so that it entered more proximal on the dorsal side of the wrist and distal on the volar aspect. mr. specter. how does the entry and exit compare with the wound on governor connally which you observed on the x-rays? dr. olivier. in this particular instance to the best of my memory from looking at the x-rays, it is very close. it is about one of the best ones that we obtained. mr. specter. is there any definable difference at all? dr. olivier. i couldn't determine any. mr. specter. it is close, you say? dr. olivier. yes. if i had both x-rays in front of me if there was a difference i could determine it, but from memory i would say it was for all purposes identical. mr. specter. i now hand you a bullet in a case marked commission exhibit and ask if you have ever seen that before? dr. olivier. yes. this is the bullet that caused the damage shown in commission exhibits nos. and . mr. specter. would you describe that bullet for the record, please? dr. olivier. the nose of the bullet is quite flattened from striking the radius. mr. specter. how does it compare, for example, with commission exhibit ? dr. olivier. it is not like it at all. i mean, commission exhibit is not flattened on the end. this one is very severely flattened on the end. mr. specter. what was the velocity of the missile at the time it struck the wrist depicted in and ? dr. olivier. the average striking velocity was , feet per second. mr. specter. do you have the precise striking velocity of that one? dr. olivier. no; i don't. we could not put velocity screen in front of the individual shots because it would have interfered with the gunner's view. so we took five shots and got an average striking velocity. mr. specter. when you say five shots with an average striking velocity, those were at the delineated distance without striking anything on those particular shots? dr. olivier. right, and after establishing that velocity, then we went on to shoot the various arms. mr. specter. and what was the exit velocity? dr. olivier. on this particular one? mr. specter. if you have it? dr. olivier. yes. well, i don't know if i have that or not. we didn't get them in all because some of these things deflect. no, i have no exit velocity on this particular one. mr. specter. what exit velocity did you get on the average? dr. olivier. average exit velocity was , feet per second. this was for an average of seven. we did . we obtained velocity on seven. mr. specter. would the average reduction be approximately the same, in your professional opinion, as to the bullet exiting from the wrist depicted in and ? dr. olivier. somewhat. let me give you the extremes of our velocities. the highest one was , and the lowest was , , so there was a -feet-per-second difference in the thing. some of the cases bone was missed, in other cases glancing blows. but i would say it is a close approximation to what the exit velocity was on that particular one. mr. specter. and what would the close approximation be, the average? dr. olivier. the average. mr. specter. would you compare the damage, which was done to governor connally's wrist, as contrasted with the damage to the wrist depicted in and ? dr. olivier. the damage in the wrist that you see in the x-ray on and , the damage is greater than was done to the governor's wrist. there is more severe comminution here. mr. specter. how much more severe is the comminution? dr. olivier. considerably more. if i remember correctly in the x-rays of the governor's wrist, i think there were only two or three fragments, if that many. here we have many, many small fragments. mr. specter. in your opinion, based on the tests which you have performed, was the damage inflicted on governor connally's wrist caused by a pristine bullet, a bullet fired from the mannlicher-carcano rifle . missile which did not hit anything before it struck the governor's wrist? dr. olivier. i don't believe so. i don't believe his wrist was struck by a pristine bullet. mr. specter. what is the reason for your conclusion on that? dr. olivier. in this case i go by the size of the entrance wound and exit wound on the governor's wrist. the entrance wound was on the dorsal surface, it was described by the surgeon as being much larger than the exit wound. he said he almost overlooked that on the volar aspect of the wrist. in every instance we had a larger exit wound than an entrance wound firing with a pristine bullet apparently at the same angle at which it entered and exited the governor's wrist. also, and i don't believe they were mixed up on which was entrance and exit. for one thing the clothing, you know, the surgeon found pieces of clothing and the other thing the human anatomy is such that i don't believe it would enter through the volar aspect and out the top. so i am pretty sure that the governor's wrist was not hit by a pristine or a stable bullet. mr. specter. what is there, in and of the nature of the smaller wound of exit and larger wound of entrance in the governor's wrist as contrasted with a smaller wound of entrance and larger wound of exit in and , which leads you to conclude that the governor's wrist was not struck by a pristine bullet? dr. olivier. do you want to repeat that question again? mr. specter. what is there about the wound of entry or exit which led you to think that the governor's wrist wasn't struck by a pristine bullet? dr. olivier. well, he would have had a larger exit wound than entrance wound, which he did not. mr. specter. and if the velocity of the missile is decreased, how does that effect the nature of the wounds of entry and exit? dr. olivier. if the velocity is decreased, if the bullet is still stable, he still should have a larger exit wound than an entrance. now, on the other hand, to get a larger entrance wound and a smaller exit wound, this indicates the bullet probably hit with very much of a yaw. i mean, as this hole appeared in the velocity screen the bullet either tumbling or striking sideways, this would have made a larger entrance wound, lose considerable of its velocity in fracturing the bone, and coming out at a very low velocity, made a smaller hole. mr. specter. so the crucial factor would be the analysis that the bullet was characterized with yaw at the time it struck? dr. olivier. yes. mr. specter. causing a larger wound of entry and a smaller wound of exit? dr. olivier. yes. mr. specter. now is there anything in the---- dr. olivier. also at a reduced velocity because if it struck at considerable yaw at a high velocity as it could do if it hit something and deflected, it would have, it could make a larger wound of exit but it would have been even a more severe wound than we had here. it would have been very severe, could even amputate the wrist hitting at high velocity sideways. we have to say this bullet was characterized by an extreme amount of yaw and reduced velocity. how much reduced, i don't know, but considerably reduced. mr. specter. does the greater damage, inflicted on the wrist in and than that which was inflicted on governor connally's wrist, have any value as indicating whether governor connally's wrist was struck by a pristine bullet? dr. olivier. no; because holding the velocity the same or similar the damage would be greater with a tumbling bullet than a pristine. i think it reflects both instability and reduced velocity. you have to show the two. i mean, the size of the entrance and exit are very important. this shows that the thing was used when it struck. the fact that there was no more damage than was done by a tumbling bullet indicates the bullet at a reduced velocity. you have to put these two things together. mr. specter. had governor connally's wrist been struck with a pristine bullet without yaw, would more damage have been inflicted---- dr. olivier. yes. mr. specter. than was inflicted on the governor's wrist? dr. olivier. yes. mr. specter. so then the lesser damage on the governor's wrist in and of itself indicates in your opinion---- dr. olivier. that it wasn't struck by a pristine bullet; yes. mr. specter. are there any other conclusions which flow from the experiments which you conducted on the wrist? dr. olivier. we concluded that it wasn't struck by a pristine bullet. also drew the conclusion that it was struck by an unstable bullet, a bullet at a much reduced velocity. the question that it brings up in my mind is if the same bullet that struck the wrist had passed through the governor's chest, if the bullet that struck the governor's chest had not hit anything else would it have been reduced low enough to do this, and i wonder, based on our work--it brings to mind the possibility the same bullet that struck the president striking the governor would account for this more readily. i don't know, i don't think you can ever say this, but it is a very good possibility, i think more possible, more probable than not. the chairman. what is more probable than not, doctor? dr. olivier. in my mind at least, and i don't know the angles at which the things went or anything, it seems to me more probable that the bullet that hit the governor's chest had already been slowed down somewhat, in order to lose enough velocity to strike his wrist and do no more damage than it did. i don't know how you would ever determine it exactly. i think the best approach is to find out the angles of flight, whether it is possible. but i have a feeling that it might have been. the chairman. it might have been? dr. olivier. yes. the chairman. the one that went through his chest went through his hand also. dr. olivier. yes; and also through the president. the chairman. the first shot? dr. olivier. well, i don't know whether the first or second. the first one could have missed. it could have been the second that hit both. the chairman. the one that went through his back and came out his trachea? dr. olivier. it could have hit the governor in the chest and went through because it had so little velocity after coming out of the wrist that it barely penetrated the thigh. the chairman. may i ask one more question? would you think, that the same bullet could have done all three of those things? dr. olivier. that same bullet was capable. the chairman. gone through the president's back as it did, gone through governor connally's chest as it did, and then through his hand as it did? dr. olivier. it was certainly capable of doing all that. the chairman. it was capable? dr. olivier. yes. the chairman. the one shot? dr. olivier. yes. mr. specter. doctor olivier, based on the descriptions of the wound on the governor's back, what in your opinion was the characteristic of the bullet at the time it struck the governor's back with respect to the course of its flight? dr. olivier. let's say from the size of the wound as described by the surgeon, it could have been tipped somewhat when it struck because that is a fairly large wound. another thing that could have done it is the angle at which it hit. on the goat some of the wounds were larger than others. on the goat material some of the wounds were larger than others because of the angle at which it hit this material. the same thing could happen on the governor's back. mr. specter. and how was that wound described with respect to its size? dr. olivier. the governor's wound? mr. specter. on the governor's back? dr. olivier. about centimeters at its largest dimension. mr. specter. and would you have any view as to which factor was more probable, as to whether it was a tangential strike on the governor's back, or whether there was yaw in the bullet at the time it struck the governor's back? dr. olivier. i couldn't as far as being tangential. i couldn't answer that, not knowing the position of the governor. but it could have been caused by a bullet yawing. i mean it would have made a larger wound, as that was. mr. specter. is there any other cause which could account for that type of a large wound on the governor's back other than with the bullet yawing? dr. olivier. with this particular bullet those would be the two probable causes of this wound of this size. mr. specter. and those two probable causes are what? dr. olivier. one, the bullet hitting not perpendicular to the surface of the governor, in other words, hitting tangential at a slight angle on his back so that it came in cutting the skin. another, the bullet hitting that wasn't perpendicular to the surface as it hit. the bullet did go along, the surgeon described the path as tangential but he is speaking of along the rib. it isn't clear it was, as it struck, whether it was a tangential shot or actually perpendicular to the governor's back. mr. specter. permit me to add one additional factor which dr. shaw testified to during the course of the proceeding after he measured the angle of decline through the governor; and dr. shaw testified that there was a ° to ° angle of declination measuring from front to back on the governor, taking into account the position of the wound on the governor's back and the position of the wound on the governor's chest below the right nipple. now with that factor, added to those which you already know, would that enable you to form a conclusion as to whether the nature of the wound on the governor's back was caused by yaw of the bullet or by a tangential strike? dr. olivier. i don't think i would want to say. if i could have seen the governor's wound, this would have been a help. mr. specter. would the damage done to the governor's wrist indicate that a bullet which was fired approximately to feet away with the muzzle velocity of approximately , feet per second, would it indicate that the bullet was slowed up only by the passage through the governor's body, in the way which you know, or would it indicate that there was some other factor which slowed up the bullet in addition? dr. olivier. it would indicate there was some other factor that had slowed up the bullet in addition. mr. specter. what is your reason for that conclusion, sir? dr. olivier. the amount of damage alone; striking that end it would have caused more severe comminution as we found. you know--if it hadn't been slowed up in some other fashion. at that range it still had a striking velocity of , or in the vicinity of , feet per second, which is capable of doing more damage than was done to the governor's wrist. mr. specter. had the same bullet which passed through the president, in the way heretofore described for the record, then struck the governor as well, what effect would there have been in reducing its velocity as a result of that course? dr. olivier. you say the bullet first struck the president. in coming out of the president's body it would have had a tendency to be slightly unstable. in striking the governor it would have lost more velocity in his chest than if it had been a pristine bullet striking the governor's chest, so it would have exited from the governor's chest i would say at a considerably reduced velocity, probably with a good amount of yaw or tumbling, and this would account for the type of wound that the governor did have in his wrist. mr. specter. the approximate reduction in velocity on passage through the goat was what, doctor? dr. olivier. the average velocity loss in the seven cases we did was feet per second. mr. specter. if the bullet had passed through the president prior to the time it passed through the governor, would you expect a larger loss than feet per second resulting from the passage through the body of the governor? dr. olivier. i am not sure if i heard you correctly. this is if it hit the governor without hitting the president or hitting the president first? mr. specter. let me rephrase it for you, dr. olivier. dr. olivier. yes; please. mr. specter. you testified that the bullet lost feet per second when it passed through the goat. dr. olivier. yes. mr. specter. now what would your expectations be as to the reduction in velocity on a bullet which passed through the governor, assuming that it struck nothing first? dr. olivier. it would be greater; the distance through the governor's chest would have been greater. mr. specter. would that be an appreciable or approximately the same? dr. olivier. can i bring in any other figures? dr. dziemian has computed approximately what he thought it would have lost. mr. specter. yes, of course, if you have any other figure which would be helpful. dr. dziemian. i believe you misunderstood mr. specter. i think you gave the figure for the loss of velocity through the governor's wrist instead of through his chest. dr. olivier. i am sorry. we were on the wrist; okay. mr. specter. let me start again then. in an effort to draw some conclusion about the reduction in velocity through the governor's chest, i am now going back and asking you what was the reduction in velocity of the bullet which passed through the goat? dr. olivier. yes; i did misunderstand you. i am sorry. the loss in velocity passing through the goat was feet per second. mr. specter. now, would that be the approximate loss in velocity of a pristine bullet passing through the governor? dr. olivier. the loss would be somewhat greater. mr. specter. how much greater in your opinion? dr. olivier. do you have that figure, dr. dziemian? dr. dziemian. i would say a pristine bullet of the governor was about half again thicker. it would be about half again as great velocity, somewhere around . mr. specter. had the bullet passed through only the governor, losing velocity of feet per second, would you have expected that the damage inflicted on the governor's wrist would have been about the same as that inflicted on governor connally or greater? dr. olivier. my feeling is it would have been greater. mr. specter. had the bullet passed through the president and then struck governor connally, would it have lost velocity of feet per second in passing through governor connally or more? dr. olivier. it would have lost more. mr. specter. what is the reason for that? dr. olivier. the bullet after passing through, say a dense medium, then through air and then through another dense medium tends to be more unstable, based on our past work. it appears to be that it would have tumbled more readily and lost energy more rapidly. how much velocity it would have lost, i couldn't say, but it would have lost more. mr. specter. are there any indications from the internal wounds on governor connally as to whether or not the bullet which entered his body was an unstable bullet? dr. olivier. the only thing that might give you an indication would be the skin wound of entrance, the type of rib fracture and all that i think could be accounted for by either type, because in our experiment we simulated, although not to as great a degree, the damage wasn't as severe, but i think it would be hard to say that. one thing comes to my mind right now that might indicate it. there was a greater flattening of the bullet in our experiments than there was going through the governor, which might indicate that it struck the rib which did the flattening at a lower velocity. this is only a thought. mr. specter. it struck the rib of the governor? dr. olivier. it struck the rib of the governor at a lower velocity because that bullet was less flattened than the bullet through the goat material. mr. specter. based on the nature of the wound inflicted on the governor's wrist, and on the tests which you have conducted then, do you have an opinion as to which is more probable on whether the bullet passed through only the governor's chest before striking his wrist, or passed through the president first and then the governor's chest before striking the governor's wrist? dr. olivier. will you say that again to make sure i have it? mr. specter. [to the reporter.] could you repeat that question, please? (the question was read by the reporter.) dr. olivier. you couldn't say exactly at all. my feeling is that it would be more probable that it passed through the president first. at least i think it is important to establish line of flight to try to determine it. mr. specter. aside from the lines of flight, based on the factors which were known to you from the medical point of view and from the tests which you conducted, what would be the reason for the feeling which you just expressed? dr. olivier. because i believe you would need that, i mean to account for the damage to the wrist. i don't think you would have gotten a low enough velocity upon reaching the wrist unless you had gone through the president's body first. mr. specter. the president's body as well as the governor's body? dr. olivier. as well as the governor's. mr. specter. does the nature of the wound which was inflicted on governor connally's thigh shed any light on this subject? dr. olivier. this, to my mind, at least, merely indicates the bullet at this time was about spent. in talking with doctor, i believe it was gregory, i don't think he did the operation on the thigh but at least he saw the wound, and he said it was about the size of an eraser on a lead pencil. this could be accounted for--and there was also this small fragment of bullet in this thigh wound--this, to me, indicates that this was a spent bullet that had gone through the wrist as the governor was sitting there, went through the wrist into his thigh, just partly imbedded and then fell out and i believe this was the bullet that was found on the stretcher. mr. specter. would you have any opinion as to the velocity of that bullet at the time it struck the governor's thigh? dr. olivier. no. we didn't do any work to simulate this, but it would have been at a very low velocity just to have gone in that far and drop out again. mr. specter. dr. olivier, in the regular course of your work for the u.s. army, do you have occasion to perform tests on reconstructed human skulls to determine the effects of bullets on skulls? dr. olivier. yes; i do. mr. specter. and did you have occasion to conduct such a test in connection with the series which you are now describing? dr. olivier. yes; i did. mr. specter. and would you outline briefly the procedures for simulating the human skull? dr. olivier. human skulls, we take these human skulls and they are imbedded and filled with percent gelatin. as i mentioned before, percent gelatin is a pretty good simulant for body tissues. they are in the moisture content. when i say percent, it is percent weight of the dry gelatin, percent moisture. the skull, the cranial cavity, is filled with this and the surface is coated with a gelatin and then it is trimmed down to approximate the thickness of the tissues overlying the skull, the soft tissues of the head. mr. specter. and at what distance were these tests performed? dr. olivier. these tests were performed at a distance of yards. mr. specter. and what gun was used? dr. olivier. it was a . mannlicher-carcano that was marked commission exhibit . mr. specter. what bullets were used? dr. olivier. it was the . millimeter mannlicher-carcano western ammunition lot , . mr. specter. what did that examination or test, rather, disclose? dr. olivier. it disclosed that the type of head wounds that the president received could be done by this type of bullet. this surprised me very much, because this type of a stable bullet i didn't think would cause a massive head wound, i thought it would go through making a small entrance and exit, but the bones of the skull are enough to deform the end of this bullet causing it to expend a lot of energy and blowing out the side of the skull or blowing out fragments of the skull. mr. specter. i now hand you a case containing bullet fragments marked commission exhibit and ask if you have ever seen those fragments before. dr. olivier. yes, i have. mr. specter. and under what circumstances have you viewed those before, please? dr. olivier. there were, the two larger fragments were recovered outside of the skull in the cotton waste we were using to catch the fragments without deforming them. there are some smaller fragments in here that were obtained from the gelatin within the cranial cavity after the experiment. we melted the gelatin out and recovered the smallest fragments from within the cranial cavity. mr. specter. now, i show you two fragments designated as commission exhibits and heretofore identified as having been found on the front seat of the president's car on november , , and ask you if you have had an opportunity to examine those before. dr. olivier. yes, i have. mr. specter. and have you had an opportunity to compare those to the two fragments identified as commission exhibit ? dr. olivier. yes, i have. mr. specter. and what did that comparison show? dr. olivier. they are quite similar. these two fragments on, what is the number? mr. specter. . dr. olivier. on there isn't as much of the front part in this one, but in other respects they are very similar. mr. specter. i now hand you a photograph marked commission exhibit and ask you what that depicts. mr. dulles. could i see that other exhibit? dr. olivier. these are the same fragments as marked . mr. specter. that is a photograph of the fragments marked ? dr. olivier. . mr. specter. i now hand you a photograph marked commission exhibit and ask you what that depicts? dr. olivier. these are the smaller fragments that have been labeled, also, exhibit . this picture or some of the fragments labeled , these are the smaller fragments contained in the same box. mr. specter. are all of the fragments on contained within ? dr. olivier. they are supposed to be, photographed and placed in the box. if they dropped out they are supposed to be all there. (discussion off the record.) mr. dulles. back on the record. mr. specter. at what point on the skull did the bullet, which fragmented into commission exhibit , strike? dr. olivier. i would have to see the picture. i mean i can't remember exactly what point. i can tell you the point we were aiming at and approximately where it hit. mr. specter. permit me to make available a photograph to you, then, for purposes of refreshing your recollection, and in testifying as to the point which was struck, for that purpose. dr. olivier. we did skulls so i can't remember offhand where everyone struck. mr. specter. for that purpose i hand you commission exhibit and ask you if that is designated in any way to identify it. mr. dulles. this is the test we are talking about now, is it? mr. specter. yes, sir; where the bullet fragmented into pieces in . mr. dulles. are you introducing that into evidence? mr. specter. yes, sir. mr. dulles. have you already introduced it in the record? mr. specter. may i at this point move for the admission into evidence of commission exhibits through , and they have been identified in sequence as being the photographs, x-rays, and other tangible exhibits used in connection with these tests. mr. dulles. they shall be admitted. (the documents heretofore marked for identification as commission exhibits nos. through were received in evidence.) dr. olivier. this photograph is the skull that was shot with the bullet, the fragments which are marked . mr. specter. at what point on the skull did the bullet strike? dr. olivier. from this i couldn't tell you exactly the point. we were aiming, as described in the autopsy report if i remember correctly the point centimeters to the right of the external occipital protuberance and slightly above it. we placed a mark on the skull at that point, according to the autopsy the bullet emerged through the superorbital process, so we drew a line to give us the line of flight, put unclipped goat hair over the back to simulate the scalp and put a mark on the area which we wished to shoot. now, every shot didn't strike exactly where we wanted, but they all struck in the back of the skull in the vicinity of our aiming point, some maybe slightly above the external occipital protuberance. in some cases very close to our aiming spot. this particular skull blew out the right side in a manner very similar to the wounds of the president, and if i remember correctly, it was very close to the point at which we aimed. in other words, a couple centimeters to the right. mr. specter. do you have any record which would be more specific on the point of entrance? dr. olivier. our notebook has all---- mr. specter. will you refer to your notes, then? dr. olivier. the notebook is in the safe in there in the briefcase. mr. specter. would you get the notebook and refer to it so we can be as specific as possible on this point. dr. olivier. i have the location of that wound. mr. specter. would you give us then the precise location of the wound caused by bullet identified as ? dr. olivier. the entrance wound is . centimeters to the right and almost horizontal to the occipital protuberance. this is almost exactly where we were aiming. we were aiming centimeters to the right. mr. specter. i now hand you a photograph marked as commission exhibit , move its admission into evidence, and ask you to state what that depicts. dr. olivier. this is the skull in question, the same one from which the fragments marked exhibit were recovered. mr. specter. and what does that show as to damage done to the skull? dr. olivier. it blew the whole side of the cranial cavity away. mr. specter. how does that compare, then, with the damage inflicted on president kennedy? dr. olivier. very similar. i think they stated the length of the defect, the missing skull was centimeters if i remember correctly. this in this case it is greater, but you don't have the limiting scalp holding the pieces in so you would expect it to fly a little more but it is essentially a similar type wound. mr. specter. does the human scalp work to hold in the human skull in such circumstances to a greater extent than the simulated matters used? dr. olivier. yes; we take this into account. mr. specter. i hand you commission exhibit , move its admission into evidence, and ask you what that depicts? dr. olivier. this is the same skull. this is just looking at it from the front. you are looking at the exit. you can't see it here because the bone has been blown away, but the bullet exited somewhere around--we reconstructed the skull. in other words, it exited very close to the superorbital ridge, possibly below it. mr. specter. did you formulate any other conclusions or opinions based on the tests on firing at the skull? dr. olivier. well, let's see. we found that this bullet could do exactly--could make the type of wound that the president received. also, that the recovered fragments were very similar to the ones recovered on the front seat and on the floor of the car. this, to me, indicates that those fragments did come from the bullet that wounded the president in the head. mr. specter. and how do the two major fragments in compare, then, with the fragments heretofore identified as and ? dr. olivier. they are quite similar. mr. specter. do you have an opinion as to whether the wound on the governor's wrist could have been caused by a fragment of a bullet coming off of the president's head? dr. olivier. i don't believe so. frankly, i don't know, but i don't believe so, because it expended so much energy in blowing the head apart and took a lot of energy that i doubt if they could have fractured the radius. the radius is a very strong, hard bone and i don't believe they could have done that much damage. i believe they could have caused a superficial laceration on someone or a mark on the windshield, but i don't believe they could have done that damage to the wrist. mr. dulles. and it couldn't have then gone through the wrist into the thigh? dr. olivier. i don't believe so. mr. specter. have you had an opportunity to examine a fragment identified as commission exhibit which is the fragment taken from governor connally's wrist? dr. olivier. yes, i have. mr. specter. could that fragment have come from the bullet designated as commission exhibit ? dr. olivier. yes, i believe it would have, i will add further i believe it could have because the core of the bullet extrudes through the back and would allow part of it to break off very readily. mr. specter. do you have an opinion as to whether, in fact, bullet did cause the wound on the governor's wrist, assuming if you will that it was the missile found on the governor's stretcher at parkland hospital? dr. olivier. i believe that it was. that is my feeling. mr. specter. to be certain that the record is complete on the skull tests, would you again state the distance at which those tests were performed? dr. olivier. yes, the skulls--it was fired at the skulls at a range of yards. mr. specter. with what gun? dr. olivier. the . mm. carcano which was marked commission exhibit and using western ammunition lot , , again the . mm. mannlicher-carcano. mr. specter. going to the results of the test on the cadavers, what was the average exit velocity? dr. olivier. the average exit velocity on the wrist was , feet per second. mr. specter. had governor connally's wrist been struck with a pristine bullet and the bullet exited at that speed, what damage would have been inflicted had it then struck the area of the thigh which was struck on the governor according to the parkland hospital records which you have said you have examined? dr. olivier. it would have made a very severe wound. mr. specter. would it have been more severe than the one which was inflicted? dr. olivier. much more so. mr. specter. do you have anything to add, dr. olivier, which you think would be helpful to the commission in any way? dr. olivier. no; i don't believe so. mr. dulles. i have no further questions. mr. specter. that completes my questions, mr. dulles. mr. dulles. thank you very much. we appreciate very much your coming. (discussion off the record.) testimony of dr. arthur j. dziemian mr. specter. dr. dziemian. mr. dulles. doctor, will you raise your right hand, please? do you solemnly swear the testimony you give in this proceeding is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? dr. dziemian. yes, sir. mr. specter. dr. dziemian, as you know, the purpose of the proceeding is to question you concerning the experiments which were performed at edgewood arsenal which may shed light on the assassination of president kennedy. with that brief statement of purpose, will you state your full name for the record, please? dr. dziemian. arthur j. dziemian. mr. specter. what is your profession or occupation, sir? dr. dziemian. i am a physiologist at the u.s. army chemical research and development laboratories, and am chief of the biophysics division. mr. specter. would you outline your educational background briefly, please? dr. dziemian. yes; a.b. and ph. d. from princeton, ph. d. in . i was national research fellow at the university of pennsylvania in the physiology department of the medical school and fellow in anatomy at johns hopkins university medical school. mr. specter. in a general way, what have your professional activities been since ? dr. dziemian. since ? well, these fellowships that i had. then i went to edgewood arsenal, was there for a few months and then went into the army, was in the army for years, in the sanitary corps, officer in the sanitary corps, and then i returned to edgewood arsenal in and in i went into wound ballistics work and have been in it since . mr. specter. and how long have you been chief of the biophysics division? dr. dziemian. since november of . mr. dulles. where is this biophysics division? dr. dziemian. u.s. army chemical research and development laboratories, edgewood arsenal, md. mr. specter. would you describe in a general way the tests which are performed at the edgewood arsenal, please? dr. dziemian. yes; well, our mission, the division's mission is to study the antipersonnel effects of munitions, including kinetic energy munitions, incendiary, and some chemical munitions. mr. specter. is it the regular function of your unit then to test the effects of bullet wounds on various parts of the human body? dr. dziemian. yes; it is. mr. specter. and does dr. olivier function under your direction in his capacity as chief of the wounds ballistics branch? dr. dziemian. yes; his branch is one of the branches of the biophysics division. mr. specter. have you been present today to hear the full testimony of dr. olivier? dr. dziemian. yes; i have. mr. specter. were the tests which he described, performed under your general supervision and direction as his superior? dr. dziemian. yes; they were. mr. specter. as to the underlying facts which those tests disclosed, do you have any details to add as to results which you think would be helpful or significant for the commission to know? dr. dziemian. well, i think that dr. olivier described them pretty well on the whole, got all the details in. mr. specter. do you agree with the recitation of the detailed findings, then, as described by dr. olivier? dr. dziemian. i do, yes. mr. specter. then moving to the general topic of reconstructing the events in terms of what professional opinion you may have as to what actually occurred at dallas, permit me to ask you some questions in terms of the known medical facts, and in the light of the results of this series of tests which you have performed. first of all, have you had access to the autopsy report on president kennedy? dr. dziemian. yes, i have. mr. specter. and have you had access to the same general information described by dr. olivier on the wounds inflicted on governor connally? dr. dziemian. yes, i have. i did not speak to the surgeons. i was not here at that time. my information on dr. connally's wounds---- mr. dulles. governor connally. dr. dziemian. governor connally, are from the reports and from discussions with dr. light or dr. olivier. mr. specter. so that all of the information available to dr. light and dr. olivier obtained through consultations with governor connally's doctors, dr. shaw and dr. gregory, have been passed on to you? in addition, you have had access to the records of parkland hospital on governor connally's treatment there? dr. dziemian. that is right. mr. specter. and have you had an opportunity to observe certain films known as the zapruder films showing the assassination? dr. dziemian. no; i did not see those. mr. specter. have you had, then, brought to your attention the approximate distances involved from the situation here, to wit; that the shots were fired from a th floor window at a distance of approximately to feet at a moving vehicle, striking the governor and the president at angles estimated from to degrees, the angle of impact on president kennedy being given by the autopsy surgeon as a -degree angle of declination, and the angle on governor connally being described as to degrees? dr. dziemian. yes, i did---- mr. dulles. you are speaking now of the first two wounds, aren't you? mr. specter. yes. mr. dulles. you are not speaking now of the brain wound at all, are you? mr. specter. correct, mr. dulles. the wound that i am referring to on the president is the wound which entered the back of his neck and exited from the front part of his neck in accordance with the prior testimony of the doctors in the case. now, based on the tests which have been performed, and the other factors which i will ask you to assume, since you weren't present; for purposes of expressing an opinion, what is your opinion as to whether all of the wounds on governor connally were inflicted by one bullet? dr. dziemian. my opinion is that it is most probably so, that one bullet produced all the wounds on governor connally. mr. specter. and what is your opinion as to whether the wound through president kennedy's neck and all of the wounds on governor connally were produced by one bullet? dr. dziemian. i think the probability is very good that it is, that all the wounds were caused by one bullet. mr. specter. when you say all the wounds, are you excluding from that the head wound on president kennedy? dr. dziemian. i am excluding the head wound, yes. mr. specter. and what is the reasoning behind your conclusion that one bullet caused the neck wound on president kennedy and all of the other wounds on governor connally? dr. dziemian. i am saying that the probability is high that that was so. mr. specter. what is the reason for your assessment of that high probability? dr. dziemian. the same reasons that dr. olivier gave, based on the same information, that especially the wound to the wrist. that higher velocity strike on the wrist would be caused by the bullet slowing down by going through all this tissue would cause more damage to the wrist and also more damage to the thigh. mr. specter. had the bullet only gone through governor connally's chest then, what is your opinion as to whether or not there would have been greater damage to the governor's wrist? dr. dziemian. i think there would have been greater damage to the governor's wrist, and also to the thigh from the information, from the experiments obtained by dr. olivier's group. mr. dulles. could i ask a question here? does that take into account any evidence as to the angle of fire and the relative positions of the two men, or excluding that? dr. dziemian. excluding that. i do not know enough details about that to make an opinion on that. this is just on the basis of the velocities of the bullets. mr. specter. would the nature of the wounds on the governor's wrist and thigh, then, be explained by the hypothesis that the bullet passed through the president first, then went through the governor's chest before striking the wrist and in turn the thigh? dr. dziemian. i think that could be a good explanation. mr. specter. what is your opinion as to whether or not a fragment of a bullet striking the president's head could have caused the wound to governor connally's wrist? dr. dziemian. i think it is unlikely. mr. specter. what is your opinion as to whether or not governor connally's wrist wound could have been caused by a pristine bullet? dr. dziemian. that is unlikely, too. our results with pristine bullets were very different from the wound that the governor had. mr. specter. based on the description provided to you of the nature of the wound in the governor's back, what is your opinion as to whether, or not, that was a pristine bullet or had yaw in it, just on the basis of the nature of the wound on the governor's back? dr. dziemian. it could very well have yaw in it because of the rather large wound that was produced in the governor's back. the wound from a nonyawing bullet could be considerably smaller. mr. specter. for the record, would you define in lay terms what yaw means? dr. dziemian. it is the procession of the bullet. the bullet is wobbling on its axis, so that as it wobbles, it presents different presented areas to the target or to the air, and this changes the drag coefficient of the bullet. it will slow down the bullet more both in the air and in tissues, in the yawing. mr. specter. what is the course of a bullet, then, which is a pristine bullet or the nature of the bullet immediately after coming out of the muzzle of a rifle before it strikes anything? dr. dziemian. a pristine bullet is normally stable. it does not wobble in the air. it presents the same presented area along most of its trajectory until it slows down, so that the drag coefficient in air or in the tissue of this type of bullet is less than the drag coefficient---- mr. specter. what do you mean by drag coefficient? dr. dziemian. it is a measurement of the resistance of the target material or the air to the bullet. the greater the drag coefficient, the more the resistance to the bullet, the more the bullet slows down within a given time. mr. specter. so would a bullet with yaw cause a greater or lesser hole on the surface which it strikes than a bullet without yaw? dr. dziemian. it would normally cause a greater hole. it usually would have more presented area, that is more the surface of the bullet would hit the skin. mr. specter. and would a bullet with yaw decrease in velocity to a greater, lesser, or the same extent as a bullet without yaw? dr. dziemian. it would decrease in velocity to a greater extent. mr. specter. whether it passed through air or---- dr. dziemian. or through tissue, and the important thing in tissue is that it transfers more energy to the target than would a nonyawing bullet. mr. specter. dr. dziemian, governor connally testified that he experienced the sensation of a striking blow on his back which he described as being similar to a hard punch received from a doubled-up fist. do you have an opinion as to whether that sensation would necessarily occur immediately upon impact of a wound such as that received by governor connally, or could there be a delayed reaction in sensing that feeling? dr. dziemian. i don't have too much of an opinion on that. all i can say is that some people are struck by bullets and do not even know they are hit. this happens in wartime. but i don't know about that. mr. specter. so that it is possible in some situations there is some delay in reaction? dr. dziemian. i couldn't say. mr. specter. is it a highly individual matter as to the reaction of an individual on that subject? dr. dziemian. i don't know. mr. dulles. but take a wound like the wrist wound of governor connally. he couldn't get that without knowing it, could he? dr. dziemian. i think he said that he didn't know he had a wrist wound until much later. (discussion off the record.) mr. specter. i have no further questions of dr. dziemian, commissioner dulles. mr. dulles. thank you very much. testimony of dr. frederick w. light, jr. mr. dulles. doctor, would you give your full name? dr. light. frederick w. light, jr. mr. dulles. would you raise your right hand? do you swear that the testimony that you will give before this commission is the truth, the whole truth, so help you god? dr. light. i do. mr. specter. dr. light, the purpose of asking you to appear today is to question you concerning the results of tests taken at the edgewood arsenal. with that brief statement of purpose, i will ask you to state your full name for the record, please. dr. light. frederick w. light, jr. mr. specter. what is your business or profession, sir? dr. light. i am a physician specializing in pathology. mr. specter. what is your educational background? dr. light. i have an a.b. from lafayette in , m.d. from johns hopkins medical school in , and ph. d. from hopkins in . mr. specter. would you outline your experience since in a very general way, please? dr. light. well, in i was still at the reading hospital, resident in pathology. between then and i was pathologist in clarksburg, w. va., and later in springfield, ill. in i returned to johns hopkins university to study mathematics for awhile. mr. dulles. to study mathematics? dr. light. yes. and then in , or , excuse me, i began working at edgewood arsenal where i am at the present time. mr. specter. what have your duties consisted of while working at edgewood arsenal? dr. light. primarily the study of pathology of wounding. mr. specter. what is your formal title there now, dr. light? dr. light. i am chief of the wound assessment branch and assistant chief of the biophysics division. mr. specter. and what is your relationship to dr. olivier and dr. dziemian? dr. light. dr. dziemian is the chief of the division. dr. olivier is chief of one of the branches, and i am chief of one of the other branches. mr. specter. have you been present here today to hear the full testimony of dr. olivier? dr. light. yes. mr. specter. and were the tests which he described conducted under your joint supervision with dr. olivier? dr. light. only a very general way. i wouldn't want to say i supervised him at all. we discussed what he was going to do. mr. specter. would it be more accurate to state that you coordinated with him in the tests which were under his general supervision? dr. light. yes; that might be stretching it a bit even. mr. specter. how would you characterize your participation? dr. light. largely--originally dr. dziemian, as i recall, was ill, and by the time we began to do these specific tests that you mention, dr. dziemian was back on the job again. so he took over whatever supervision was needed. mr. specter. were the tests which dr. olivier described made at the request of the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy? dr. light. yes; they were. mr. specter. do you have anything to add by way of any detail to the findings reported by dr. olivier in his testimony here earlier today? dr. light. no; i think he covered it very thoroughly. mr. specter. and as to the conclusions and opinions which he expressed, do you agree or disagree, to some extent, on his conclusions? dr. light. i agree in general at least. i am not quite so certain about some of the things, but generally i certainly agree with what he said. mr. dulles. what are the things on which you are not quite so certain? dr. light. for example, i am not quite as sure in my mind as i believe he is that the bullet that struck the governor was almost certainly one which had hit something else first. i believe it could have produced that wound even though it hadn't hit the president or any other person or object first. mr. dulles. that is the wound, then, in the thigh? dr. light. no; in the chest. mr. dulles. i was thinking that the wound in the thigh--let me start again. as i understand the previous testimony, dr. olivier would have expected the wound in the thigh to be more serious if it had not hit some object. dr. light. yes. mr. dulles. prior to entering governor connally's body, but you feel that the wound in the thigh might be consistent? dr. light. the wound in the thigh is the terminal end, is the far end of the whole track. i don't believe that in passing through the tissue which was simulated by what dr. olivier described first, or centimeters of gelatin, i don't believe that the change in velocity introduced by the passage through that much tissue can be relied upon to make such a definite difference in the effect. mr. specter. do you believe that if the governor had been struck by a pristine bullet which had gone through his chest, that it would have caused no more damage than which appeared on the governor's chest? dr. light. i think that is possible; yes. i might say i think perhaps the best, the most likely thing is what everyone else has said so far, that the bullet did go through the president's neck and then through the chest and then through the wrist and then into the thigh. mr. specter. you think that is the most likely possibility? dr. light. i think that is probably the most likely, but i base that not entirely on the anatomical findings but as much on the circumstances. mr. specter. what are the circumstances which lead you to that conclusion? dr. light. the relative positions in the automobile of the president and the governor. mr. specter. are there any other circumstances which contribute to that conclusion, other than the anatomical findings? dr. light. and the appearance of the bullet that was found and the place it was found, presumably, the bullet was the one which wounded the governor. mr. specter. the whole bullet? dr. light. the whole bullet. mr. specter. identified as commission exhibit no. ? dr. light. yes. mr. specter. and what about that whole bullet leads you to believe that the one bullet caused the president's neck wound and all of the wounds on governor connally? dr. light. nothing about that bullet. mainly the position in which they are seated in the automobile. mr. specter. so in addition to the---- dr. light. and the fact that the bullet that passed through the president's body lost very little velocity since it passed through soft tissue, so that it would strike the governor, if it did, with a velocity only, what was it, feet per second, very little lower than it would have if it hadn't struck anything else first. i am not sure, i didn't see, of course, none of us saw the wounds in the governor in the fresh state or any other time, and i am not too convinced from the measurements and the descriptions that were given in the surgical reports and so on that the actual holes through the skin were unusually large. mr. specter. have you had access to the autopsy records? dr. light. yes. mr. specter. and have you had access to the reports of parkland hospital on the governor's operations there? dr. light. yes. mr. specter. all three of them? dr. light. yes. mr. specter. and have you had an opportunity to view the films of the assassination commonly known as the zapruder films? dr. light. yes. mr. specter. and the slides? dr. light. yes. mr. specter. and have you had an opportunity to talk to dr. shaw and dr. gregory who performed the thoracic and wrist operations on governor connally? dr. light. yes. mr. specter. and you heard governor connally's version yourself? dr. light. yes; but not in---- mr. specter. not in the commission? dr. light. not in the commission session. mr. specter. but at the time when the films were viewed by the governor? dr. light. yes; i did. mr. specter. at the vfw building on the first floor? dr. light. yes. mr. specter. focusing on a few of the specific considerations, do you believe that there would have been the same amount of damage done to the governor's wrist had the pristine bullet only passed through the governor's body without striking the president first? dr. light. i think that is possible; yes. it won't happen the same way twice in any case, so you have got a fairly wide range of things that can happen if a person is shot in more or less this way. mr. specter. do you think it is as likely that the damage would have been inflicted on the governor's wrist as it was, with the bullet passing only through the governor's chest as opposed to passing through the president's neck and the governor's chest? dr. light. i think the difference in likelihood is negligible on that basis alone. mr. specter. so the damage on the governor's wrist would be equally consistent---- dr. light. equally consistent; yes. mr. specter. with (_a_) passing only through the governor's chest, or (_b_) passing through the president's neck and the governor's chest? dr. light. yes. mr. specter. now, as to the damage on the thigh, would the nature of that wound again be equally consistent with either going through (_a_) the president's neck, the governor's chest, the governor's wrist, and then into the thigh, or (_b_) only through the governor's chest, the governor's wrist and into the thigh? dr. light. i'd say equally consistent; yes. mr. specter. and based on the descriptions which have been provided to you about the nature of the wound on the governor's back, do you have an opinion as to whether the bullet was yawing or not at the time it struck the governor's back? mr. light. no; i don't. that is really one of the points---- mr. specter. it would be either way? dr. light. yes; i don't feel too certain that it was yawing. the measurements were not particularly precise as far as i could tell. you wouldn't expect them to be in an operating room. so i think it is difficult to be sure there that the missile wasn't presenting nose on. it undoubtedly struck not at normal instance, that is to say it was a certain obliquity, just in the nature of the way the shoulder is built. mr. specter. then do you think based on only the anatomical findings and the results of the tests which dr. olivier has performed that the scales are in equipoise as to whether the bullet passed through the president first and then through the governor or passed only through the governor? dr. light. yes; i would say i don't feel justified in drawing a conclusion one way or the other on that basis alone. mr. specter. do you have any preference of any sort? dr. light. yes; i do, for other reasons. mr. specter. but only for the other reasons? dr. light. as i mentioned, their positions in the automobile, the fact that if it wasn't the way--if one bullet didn't produce all of the wounds in both of the individuals, then that bullet ought to be somewhere, and hasn't been found. but those are not based on dr. olivier's tests nor are they based on the autopsy report or the surgeon's findings in my mind. (discussion off the record.) mr. dulles. on the record. mr. specter. dr. light, do you have an opinion as to whether or not the wound inflicted on governor connally's wrist could have been caused by a fragment which struck the president's head? dr. light. it is barely conceivable but i do not believe that that is the case. mr. specter. you say barely? dr. light. barely conceivable. i mean a fragment probably had enough velocity, it couldn't have produced that wound, in my mind, but it can't be ruled out with complete certainty. mr. specter. do you have anything to add which you think would be helpful to the commission in any way? dr. light. i don't believe i do. mr. specter. those are all the questions i have, commissioner dulles. mr. dulles. thank you very much indeed. i express our appreciation. i didn't realize these tests were being carried out. i am very glad they have been. it is a very useful thing to do and very helpful to the commission. thank you very much. i want to thank all three of you doctors for having so fully cooperated in this matter, and i think that these tests that you have run have made a real contribution to the commission's work. (whereupon, at : p.m., the president's commission recessed.) _thursday, may , _ testimony of j. edgar hoover, john a. mccone, and richard m. helms the president's commission met at : a.m., on may , , at maryland avenue ne., washington, d.c. present were chief justice earl warren, chairman; senator john sherman cooper, representative hale boggs, representative gerald r. ford, and allen w. dulles, members. also present were j. lee rankin, general counsel; norman redlich, assistant counsel; charles murray and walter craig, observers; and waggoner carr, attorney general of texas. testimony of j. edgar hoover the chairman. the commission will be in order. director hoover, will you please raise your right hand to be sworn, please. you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before the commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. hoover. i do. the chairman. mr. rankin will carry on the examination, mr. director. mr. rankin. mr. chief justice, do you want to tell him briefly what our purpose is? the chairman. oh, yes; it is our practice to make a brief statement before the testimony of each witness, and i will do it now. mr. hoover will be asked to testify in regard to whether lee h. oswald was ever an agent, directly or indirectly, or an informer or acting on behalf of the federal bureau of investigation in any capacity at any time, and whether he knows of any credible evidence of any conspiracy, either domestic or foreign, involved in the assassination of president kennedy. what he has to say about an article in the national enquirer, commission exhibit no. , and concerning the failure to include the name and information concerning special agent hosty in the initial report of the oswald address book and any suggestions and recommendations he may have concerning improvements or changes in provisions for the protection of the president of the united states. now, mr. rankin, you may proceed. mr. rankin. mr. hoover, will you state for the record your name and position? mr. hoover. j. edgar hoover, director of the federal bureau of investigation of the department of justice. mr. rankin. where do you live, mr. hoover? mr. hoover. i live at th place, northwest, washington, d.c. mr. rankin. and you have been director of the bureau for some years according to the newspapers? mr. hoover. that is correct; since . mr. rankin. you have furnished us a considerable amount of information, mr. hoover, about whether or not lee harvey oswald was ever an agent or acting for the bureau in any capacity as informer or otherwise at any time. are those statements correct? mr. hoover. they are correct. i can most emphatically say that at no time was he ever an employee of the bureau in any capacity, either as an agent or as a special employee, or as an informant. mr. rankin. i call your particular attention to exhibit , and suggest that you will find that that is your letter, together with your affidavit about this subject matter, and other matters that you furnished to us concerning this particular subject. mr. hoover. that is correct. mr. rankin. do you wish to add anything? mr. hoover. no; there is nothing that i desire to add to what appears in this letter and my affidavit which accompanied it to the commission. mr. rankin. you have provided many things to us in assisting the commission in connection with this investigation and i assume, at least in a general way, you are familiar with the investigation of the assassination of president kennedy, is that correct? mr. hoover. that is correct. when president johnson returned to washington he communicated with me within the first hours, and asked the bureau to pick up the investigation of the assassination because as you are aware, there is no federal jurisdiction for such an investigation. it is not a federal crime to kill or attack the president or the vice president or any of the continuity of officers who would succeed to the presidency. however, the president has a right to request the bureau to make special investigations, and in this instance he asked that this investigation be made. i immediately assigned a special force headed by the special agent in charge at dallas, tex., to initiate the investigation, and to get all details and facts concerning it, which we obtained, and then prepared a report which we submitted to the attorney general for transmission to the president. mr. rankin. from your study of this entire matter of the assassination and work in connection with it, do you know of any credible evidence that has ever come to your attention that there was a conspiracy either foreign or domestic involved in the assassination? mr. hoover. i know of no substantial evidence of any type that would support any contention of that character. i have read all of the requests that have come to the bureau from this commission, and i have read and signed all the replies that have come to the commission. in addition, i have read many of the reports that our agents have made and i have been unable to find any scintilla of evidence showing any foreign conspiracy or any domestic conspiracy that culminated in the assassination of president kennedy. representative ford. may i ask this, mr. hoover. as i understand your testimony, it is based on the evidence that has been accumulated thus far? mr. hoover. that is correct, sir. representative ford. is the federal bureau of investigation continuing its investigation of all possible ramifications of this assassination? mr. hoover. that is correct. we are receiving and we, i expect, will continue to receive for days or weeks to come, letters from individuals that normally would probably be in the category of what we would call crank letters in which various weird allegations are made or in which people have reported psychic vibrations. we are still running out letters of that character and in turn making a report to this commission upon it, notwithstanding the fact that on the face of it the allegation is without any foundation. individuals who could not have known any of the facts have made some very strange statements. there have been publications and books written, the contents of which have been absurd and without a scintilla of foundation of fact. i feel, from my experience in the bureau, where we are in constant receipt over the years of these so-called crank letters, that such allegations will be going on possibly for some years to come. i, personally, feel that any finding of the commission will not be accepted by everybody, because there are bound to be some extremists who have very pronounced views, without any foundation for them, who will disagree violently with whatever findings the commission makes. but i think it is essential that the fbi investigate the allegations that are received in the future so it can't be said that we had ignored them or that the case is closed and forgotten. representative ford. could you give us some idea of how many agents are currently working to one degree or another on any aspects of this case? mr. hoover. i would estimate, congressman ford, that there are at the present time at least or men giving their entire time to various aspects of the investigation, because while dallas is the office of origin, investigation is required in auxiliary offices such as los angeles or san francisco, and even in some foreign countries like mexico. we have representatives in mexico city. at the outset of the investigation, following the assassination, it was the desire of the president to have this report completed by the bureau just as quickly as possible, and as thoroughly as possible, and i would say we had about men at that time working on the report in the field, and at washington, dc. now, all the reports that come in from the field are, of course, reviewed at washington by the supervisor in charge of the case, and then in turn by the assistant director of the division, and then in turn by mr. belmont, who is the assistant to the director. reports in which there is a controversial issue or where statements have been made of the existence of some particular thing that we have never heard of before, i myself, go over these to see that we haven't missed anything or haven't had any gap in the investigation so it can be tied down. recently the national enquirer had a fantastic article in it as to the existence of a letter that had been written or a request that had been made by the department of justice to chief curry of the dallas police department, to withhold arresting rubinstein, or ruby, and oswald after the oswald attempt on general walker's life. first, i had the agent in charge at dallas interview chief curry and i have sent to the commission a letter as to what chief curry had to say. he branded it as an entire lie--that he had never received any request of that kind. i had our files searched to be certain we had not written any such letter as that and found we had not. i requested the department of justice to advise me whether they had written any such letter and mr. katzenbach advises there is no reference in the department files to the alleged letter from any department of justice official to chief curry nor any reference that an fbi official was asked to request the dallas police not to arrest oswald or ruby. a letter is being sent to the commission today setting forth this information. representative ford. the point that i think ought to be made is that despite the magnitude of the effort that has been made by the fbi and by other agencies, and despite the tremendous effort that has been made, i believe, by the commission to help and assist and to consolidate all of the evidence that we possibly could, that there is always the possibility at some future date that some evidence might come to the surface. mr. hoover. that is, of course, possible; yes. representative ford. i want just to be sure that no leads, no evidence regardless of its credibility will be ignored, that it will be pursued by the bureau or any other agency to make certain that it is good, bad or of no value. mr. hoover. well, i can assure you so far as the fbi is concerned, the case will be continued in an open classification for all time. that is, any information coming to us or any report coming to us from any source will be thoroughly investigated, so that we will be able to either prove or disprove the allegation. we found in the course of our investigations that individuals have made statements. yet, when we investigate they will frankly admit that the statement is an entire falsehood, or that they don't know why they wrote the letter or why they made the statement. but, nevertheless, we have the record and generally in those instances we try to get a signed statement from that individual so it can be made a part of the record. representative ford. under your authority from the president, the authority which gave you the fbi, the responsibility to conduct this investigation it is not an authority with a terminal point. it is an authority that goes on indefinitely? mr. hoover. very definitely so. the president wanted a full and thorough investigation made of this matter, and we have tried to do so. as i have stated, i think we will continue to receive allegations. i think this will be a matter of controversy for years to come, just like the lincoln assassination. there will be questions raised by individuals, either for publicity purposes or otherwise, that will raise some new angle or new aspect of it. i think we must, and certainly we intend in the fbi to continue to run down any such allegations or reports of that kind. representative boggs. mr. chairman. the chairman. yes, congressman boggs. representative boggs. mr. hoover, i don't want any cover--to cover any ground which has been covered but i just have one or two questions. first, let me say that you and the bureau have been very cooperative with this commission. mr. hoover. thank you. representative boggs. and tremendously helpful. i have been concerned about some of these wild press reports and concerned about what impact it may have ultimately on the history of this thing. for instance there is a man named buchanan who has written a series of articles. mr. dulles. a book now. a book is out; yes. representative boggs. a book now. i understand they have been widely circulated in the european press, and this man came here and was, as i got it from some other sources, he took in some people here, some american journalists, and i am told that this man has a communist background, and in addition to that is a most unreliable person. he has made these allegations that the dallas police force was involved in the assassination and so on. would you have any suggestions on how this commission should deal with this sort of thing? mr. hoover. we have received a request from the commission to review that book and to make a report upon any portions of it that can be contradicted or substantiated by actual facts or documents. i know buchanan's background. he worked on the washington star and he was dismissed from the washington star because he was a member of the communist party. he spent much of his time in recent years in france writing for french newspapers. i have followed the articles that he has written about this matter and they are what i would call "journalistic garbage." there is not a scintilla of truth to most of the things he has written in these articles and in his book which i have had a chance to scan but haven't actually reviewed yet. it is being reviewed by my research section. some of the allegations are utterly fantastic. i often wonder where some of these individuals get such ideas and why they make such statements without foundation. now, he makes many wild charges there, and to read it, a person not knowing him, or his views, or his background, would be inclined to wonder. i think you are going to have that problem, as i say, for years to come. i don't know how you can handle individuals like him other than to have the record clear upon the facts of the case, and either substantiate or disprove his statements. i don't think too much time should be given to these individuals who have such unsavory backgrounds as buchanan has and who makes statements that have been proved to be untrue. but, at the same time i think when a book like that comes out or an article of that type comes out that deals with the assassination of the late president, i think it should be gone into from an investigative point of view. we should then submit to this commission, even after it has concluded its hearings, for record purposes, what we have found in each particular instance. representative boggs. now, on the other side of the fence---- mr. dulles. may i add one other thing just to interrupt. i wish you would add to your list a book called "the red roses of dallas" by a man named gun. he is a more reliable correspondent. mr. hoover. he is a philadelphia correspondent. mr. dulles. he has been living in this country since . i have met him over here. let's see, he was at dallas at the time. he was then reporting, i think, for the italian newspaper epoca. mr. hoover. that is not the same one. mr. dulles. he might have been lying. this book is full of lies. but i think it is a book that ought to be added, too, and i will see that a copy is sent to the bureau. mr. hoover. i would appreciate that. representative boggs. on the other side of the spectrum some professor out at the university of illinois wrote a piece in which he alleged the president was a communist agent, president kennedy, and buchanan's allegations are that the extreme right assassinated the president and this fellow's allegations are that the communists assassinated the president. would you care to comment? have you read that piece? mr. hoover. i have read that piece. my comment on it is this in general: i think the extreme right is just as much a danger to the freedom of this country as the extreme left. there are groups, organizations, and individuals on the extreme right who make these very violent statements, allegations that general eisenhower was a communist, disparaging references to the chief justice and at the other end of the spectrum you have these leftists who make wild statements charging almost anybody with being a fascist or belonging to some of these so-called extreme right societies. now, i have felt, and i have said publicly in speeches, that they are just as much a danger, at either end of the spectrum. they don't deal with facts. anybody who will allege that general eisenhower was a communist agent, has something wrong with him. a lot of people read such allegations because i get some of the weirdest letters wanting to know whether we have inquired to find out whether that is true. i have known general eisenhower quite well myself and i have found him to be a sound, level-headed man. in new york city there is a woman by the name of kraus who must be mentally deranged as she stands on a broadway corner there handing out leaflets in which she charges me with being in the conspiracy with the communists to overthrow this government and so forth. well now, if any person has fought communism, i certainly have fought it. we have tried to fight it and expose it in democratic ways i think that is the thing we have to very definitely keep in mind in this whole problem in the security of the president and the successor to office. just how far you are going to go for his protection and his security. i don't think you can get absolute security without almost establishing a police state, and we don't want that. you can't put security in a black groove or a white groove. it is in a gray groove, and certain chances have to be taken. you are dealing with a human being when you are dealing with the president of the united states. president johnson is a very down to earth human being, and it makes the security problem all the more difficult, but you can't bar him from the people. there are certain things that can be done, and i submitted a memorandum to the secret service, and to the white house on certain security steps that might be taken and tightened up. but you are dealing with the general public and that is what has given me great concern in the recent expansion, of the criteria for dissemination that we adopted after the assassination. prior to that time we reported to the secret service all information that dealt with individuals who were potential killers or by whom acts of violence might be anticipated. the secret service would take that information and would do with it as they saw fit. i gave great consideration to it because i am not very happy with the criteria expansion, but i felt we had to include subversives of various character, and extremists. we have, in turn, furnished their names to the secret service. i think , names up to the present time already have been submitted and there are at least three or four thousand more that will be submitted within the next few months. then you come to the problem of what you are going to do when the secret service gets those names. they have to call upon the local authorities. just recently, in the city of chicago, when the president was there, the local authorities were asked to give assistance as they usually do to the secret service and they went to the homes of some of these people, and it resulted really almost in a house arrest. now, i don't think there is any place in this country for that kind of thing, but these people who belonged to extreme subversive organizations or organizations that advocated the overthrow of government by force and violence were told that they couldn't leave their house or if they did they would be accompanied by a police officer. that gives me great concern because in new york city alone, you run into maybe three or four thousand such individuals who would be members of subversive organizations, and then you get into the twilight zone of subversive fronts. now, there again, merely because a man belongs to a subversive front organization, in my estimation doesn't mean that he is blacklisted and is a menace to the country for life. if he belongs to of them, it certainly shows either one of two things, he is either very gullible and dumb or he is a menace. that has been my attitude in regard to government service where you find a government employee who belonged to one or two, maybe in his early days. i don't believe this necessarily makes him a security risk. rather, this would be dependent on the degree of his activity in the front group and his purpose and intent in associating himself with it. but where he has belonged to , , of them, i don't think he has enough good judgment to be in the government. some ministers get drawn into organizations, some of which are under the domination of the communist party. now, those ministers don't know that. they are just as loyal and patriotic as you and i are, but they happen to belong. now, that is where the question of human judgment has to be used. we try to use it in selecting these names. but i was startled when i learned of the incident in chicago because there you come pretty close to a house arrest and we don't want that. we don't want a gestapo. we have to, i think, maintain an even balance. i think it was very well expressed-- mr. dulles. may i ask you, mr. hoover, was this house arrest based on names you had furnished the secret service and they furnished the local authorities? mr. hoover. yes, sir. representative boggs. that brings me back to the question i think i heard congressman ford ask you as i came into the room, because i think this is the crux of our investigation. i read the fbi report very carefully and the whole implication of the report is that, number one, oswald shot the president; number two, that he was not connected with any conspiracy of any kind, nature or description. mr. hoover. correct. representative boggs. do you still subscribe to that? mr. hoover. i subscribe to it even more strongly today than i did at the time that the report was written. you see, the original idea was that there would be an investigation by the fbi and a report would be prepared in such form that it could be released to the public. representative boggs. surely. mr. hoover. then a few days later, after further consideration, the president decided to form a commission, which i think was very wise, because i feel that the report of any agency of government investigating what might be some shortcomings on the part of other agencies of government ought to be reviewed by an impartial group such as this commission. and the more i have read these reports, the more i am convinced that oswald was the man who fired the gun; and he fired three times, killed the president, and wounded governor connally. and i also am further convinced that there is absolutely no association between oswald or ruby. there was no such evidence ever established. mr. dulles. or oswald and anybody else? would you go that far? mr. hoover. anybody else who might be---- mr. dulles. in connection with the assassination? mr. hoover. yes; i would certainly go that far. there was suspicion at first this might be a castro act. representative boggs. right. mr. hoover. we had information that had been obtained in mexico city by another intelligence agency indicating there was a man who had seen a certain amount of money passed to oswald at the cuban consulate. i think it was $ , that was passed. we went into that very thoroughly. the man later retracted his statement and stated it was not true. he was asked whether he would take a lie detector test, and he did. the lie detector test showed that he was telling a lie. as to the lie detector, i do want to make this comment on it. i have always held to the opinion that it is not a perfect piece of machinery. it is an interpretation made by human beings of what the machine, the polygraph, shows. i would never want to convict or to send to the penitentiary any person solely on the evidence of the lie detector. it is a contribution in an investigation, a more or less psychological contribution. but i have seen individuals who have failed the lie detector test and who were just as innocent as they could be. that particular lead in mexico city was completely disproved; there was no foundation for it. we found no associations between oswald and ruby. there has been a story printed that ruby and oswald worked together and were close friends. there was no evidence, there was never any indication that we could find that oswald had ever been in ruby's nightclub or had had any association with him. ruby comes from chicago, he was on the fringe of what you might call the elements of the underworld there. he came to dallas, opened up the nightclub and it was a place where, certainly not the better class of people went, but it wasn't any so-called "joint," to use the vernacular. it was just another nightclub. so far as we have been able to establish there was no relationship or contact between oswald and ruby or anyone else allegedly involved in this assassination. representative boggs. the fbi interviewed practically everybody who ever associated with oswald? mr. hoover. it did. representative boggs. you didn't find any indication of why anyone should even suspect that oswald would do this, did you? mr. hoover. we found no indication at all that oswald was a man addicted to violence. the first indication of an act of violence came after he, oswald, had been killed, and mrs. oswald told us about the attempt on general walker's life by oswald. no one had known a thing about that. i think in the enquirer article there is reference to the fact that the dallas police knew or suspected oswald of possibly being a party to the shooting into the house of general walker. chief curry specifically denies that. there was no connection of that kind and there was no evidence that oswald had any streak of violence. we went back into his marine corps record. he was a "loner." he didn't have many friends. he kept to himself, and when he went abroad, he defected to russia. the first evidence we had of him in our file was a statement to the press in moscow. and then later, about months later, he returned to the embassy there and according to the report of the embassy we have and which the commission has been furnished, the embassy gave him a clean bill. he had seen the error of his ways and disliked the soviet atmosphere, et cetera, and they, therefore, cleared him, paid his way and paid his wife's way to come back to this country. at no time, other than the so-called street disturbance in new orleans, was there any indication that he might be a fighter. well, in that particular instance he was handing out leaflets that he printed for the fair play for cuba committee, and some of the anti-castro forces, we have several thousand of them in new orleans alone, happened to see him and they moved in on him and immediately the police moved in and arrested him. i believe they fined him $ for disorderly conduct. there was no evidence in the place where he was employed in dallas of acts of violence or temper or anything of that kind on his part. representative boggs. you have spent your life studying criminology and violence and subversion. would you care to speculate on what may have motivated the man? i know it would be just speculation. mr. hoover. my speculation, mr. boggs, is that this man was no doubt a dedicated communist. he prefers to call himself a marxist, but there you get into the field of semantics. he was a communist, he sympathized thoroughly with the communist cause. i don't believe now, as i look back on it, that he ever changed his views when he asked to come back to this country. i personally feel that when he went to the american embassy in moscow originally to renounce his citizenship he should have been able right then and there to sign the renouncement. he never could have gotten back here. i think that should apply to almost all defectors who want to defect and become a part of a system of government that is entirely foreign to ours. if they have that desire, they have that right, but if they indicate a desire for it, let them renounce their citizenship at once. that was not done. he stayed in moscow awhile and he went to minsk where he worked. there was no indication of any difficulty, personally on his part there, but i haven't the slightest doubt that he was a dedicated communist. there has been some question raised which cannot be resolved, because oswald is dead, as to whether he was trying to kill the president or trying to kill the governor. he had had some correspondence with the governor as to the form of his discharge from the marine corps. it was not a dishonorable discharge, but a discharge less than honorable after he defected. governor connally had left the navy department, and was back in texas as governor. oswald may have had his anger or his animosity against the governor, but no one can say definitely--that is mere speculation, no one can tell that, because the gun and the sighting of the gun was directed at the car. now, first, it was thought that the president had been shot through the throat that is what the doctors at the parkland hospital felt when he was brought in. if that had been true, the shot would have had to come from the overpass. but as soon as the body arrived in washington, the doctors at bethesda hospital performed the autopsy and it was then determined definitely from their point of view that he had been shot from the rear, and that portions of the skull had been practically shot off. there was no question but that the gun and the telescopic lens could pinpoint the president perfectly. the car was moving slowly. it wasn't going at a high rate of speed, so that he had perfect opportunity to do it. now, some people have raised the question: why didn't he shoot the president as the car came toward the storehouse where he was working? the reason for that is, i think, the fact there were some trees between his window on the sixth floor and the cars as they turned and went through the park. so he waited until the car got out from under the trees, and the limbs, and then he had a perfectly clear view of the occupants of the car, and i think he took aim, either on the president or connally, and i personally believe it was the president in view of the twisted mentality the man had. but he had given no indication of that--we had interviewed him, i think, three times. of course, our interviews were predicated to find out whether he had been recruited by the russian intelligence service, because they frequently do that. representative boggs. and had he been? mr. hoover. he had not been, so he said, and we have no proof that he was. he had been over there long enough but they never gave him citizenship in russia at all. i think they probably looked upon him more as a kind of a queer sort of individual and they didn't trust him too strongly. but just the day before yesterday information came to me indicating that there is an espionage training school outside of minsk--i don't know whether it is true--and that he was trained at that school to come back to this country to become what they call a "sleeper," that is a man who will remain dormant for or years and in case of international hostilities rise up and be used. i don't know of any espionage school at minsk or near minsk, and i don't know how you could find out if there ever was one because the russians won't tell you if you asked them. they do have espionage and sabotage schools in russia and they do have an assassination squad that is used by them but there is no indication he had any association with anything of that kind. representative boggs. now we have some people, including this man's mother, talk about oswald having been an agent of the government of the united states. i think his mother mentioned the cia; she has made these statements publicly for money, apparently. mr. hoover. yes; she has. representative boggs. just for the purpose of the record, i think it would be well if you would comment on that, mr. director. mr. hoover. of course, we have interviewed his mother and his wife, and all his relatives, and everybody that he is known to have associated with. his mother i would put in a category of being emotionally unstable. she has been around the country making speeches, and the first indication of her emotional instability was the retaining of a lawyer that anyone would not have retained if they really were serious in trying to get down to the facts. but she has been in new york city; she has been in chicago; i think other parts of the country, always speaking for money. now, that kind of an individual is the type we have seen over the years, who will say almost anything to draw a crowd. just to be able to say something sensational. many times we have gone out to such people and asked them specifically, "now, what is your basis for this?" and they will say, "well, i just had a feeling that that was true, so i said it." she has never made that statement to us, but we have many other instances where that kind of statement is made. they don't have the legal evidence that you must have if you are going to take any positive action. i would put very little credence in anything that his mother said. i think his wife was a far more reliable person in statements that she made, so far as we were able to ascertain, than his mother. i think the mother had in mind, naturally, the fact she wanted to clear her son's name, which was a natural instinct, but more importantly she was going to see how much money she could make, and i believe she has made a substantial sum. representative boggs. and the allegations she has made about this man being an agent either of the cia or the fbi are false? mr. hoover. well, i can certainly speak for the fbi that it is false, and i have discussed the matter, naturally, with mr. mccone, the director of cia, and he, of course, will no doubt appear himself, but there is no indication at all that he was employed by them. we frequently get that kind of a story from individuals who, when they get into some kind of difficulty, will claim they were working for the cia or they were working for the fbi. representative boggs. surely. mr. hoover. now, no one can work for the fbi without the approval being given at washington and a record kept of it, even of the confidential informants. that is very tightly controlled. we have no so-called lump sum that we can use to hire people. so there has to be a voucher and specific details of payment. and i know at no time was he an informant or agent or a special employee or working in any capacity for the fbi. as to the interviews we had with him in which he gave us some information, some of it was not the truth, but this was not particularly significant. the interviews we had with him i would not term as talking with an informant. he was interviewed while under arrest by the new orleans police, and then after he had committed this act of assassination we interviewed him in police headquarters in dallas. but they were the only contacts we had, i think four contacts altogether, and he received no money of any kind, no promise of any kind, and there was no indication that he was rendering assistance to the u.s. government. we looked upon him as a criminal after the assassination, of course, and prior to that time we looked upon him as an individual who we suspected might become an agent of the soviet government. there was no proof of that, and we checked him carefully. we knew of his contact with the soviet embassy here at washington, his contact with the fair play for cuba committee in new york, and his contact with the worker publication in new york. and none of those contacts gave any indication of any tendency to commit violence. there are many people who read the daily worker, or what is now the worker, and you certainly can't brand them as hazards to the security of the country or as potential assassins. it is in that area that i am particularly concerned that we don't become hysterical and go too far in restricting the citizens of our country from exercising their civil and constitutional rights. the mere fact a person disagrees with you in a matter on communism doesn't mean he should be arrested. many communists make very violent speeches, and we know them, but i don't feel that the time has come that they should be arrested. if they have violated the laws of the united states, we will, then, proceed with prosecution, and the cases can then go through the courts. such cases last for years before they get to the supreme court, and even then such cases often start over on some legal angle. but, all in all, i think that the enforcement of security and the enforcement of laws dealing with subversion ought to be handled in the american manner. i am criticized by the extreme right for that. they put me in the category, i guess, along with general eisenhower. but the extreme left criticizes me, saying i believe that any person who has on a red necktie may be addicted to communism, and, therefore, is a great danger. that is why i say the extremists at both ends are bad, and i have repeated that several times publicly. representative boggs. no doubt about the problem being a difficult one. i remember some years back when these fanatics started shooting up the house of representatives. mr. hoover. i recall that. representative boggs. i happened to be there on the occasion and there were many suggestions that we build a bulletproof glass enclosure around the members of congress and so on. of course, all of us rejected those ideas because it would be totally incompatible with our democratic institutions and this, obviously, becomes a problem in the security of the president; that is what you are telling us, isn't it? mr. hoover. that is the great problem. we have participated in the protection of the president since the assassination. the secret service indicates how many agents it needs when the president is traveling somewhere or going somewhere in washington, and then i assign that number of agents to the secret service. they are not under my direction. they are under the direction of the secret service because under law they are charged with the protection of the president. we have never done that before, but i felt that it was something we must do if the secret service desired it. sometimes, such as at the funeral of the late president kennedy, the procession walked up connecticut avenue, which created a very, very grave security problem because they were walking with these tall building on either side. as i recall, we had the responsibility for the cathedral, and we had agents in the cathedral during the services. i was more concerned about these tall buildings, because all the small buildings have been torn down along connecticut avenue, and there were about six or seven blocks to walk. not only the high officials of this government, including the president, but the queen of greece, general de gaulle, emperor haile selassie, and many prime ministers were present. they were a perfect target for someone in some window. now, you can't empty these buildings. it is impossible to do that, because you can't go to the mayflower hotel and say all front rooms must be vacated. other office buildings are there, even taller than the mayflower, and you can't make them keep everybody out of the front offices because then you get into a police state. the secret service does try to check to find out who have these various offices. we also check so if there is anything in our files on those individuals the secret service is at once advised. when the president goes to a banquet or a social occasion, all of the employees in the hotel, the cooks, waiters, and busboys, and so forth, are all checked by secret service to be certain there is no one with a background that would indicate a hazard to the president. but that is as far as i think you can go. you can't put in a whole new staff of waiters and you can't make people move out. people going to a presidential function are generally invited by card or by list, and that is very carefully checked at the entrance by the secret service. we suggested a few more things that possibly could be done, and some of which i have doubts about. you speak about this matter of glass around the galleries in the house. one of the suggestions that we made was that there be bulletproof glass in front of the president's lectern. in my own mind, i question whether that is wise. knowing this president as this president is, he wants to get close to the audience; he wants to reach over and shake hands with people. that concerns me because you never know when an emotionally unstable person may be in that crowd. as you noted, he has frequently brought groups into the white house gardens and walked around with people he didn't know. i know the secret service people are concerned about it. i am concerned about it. president truman last week expressed his concern that the president was taking unnecessary chances. but the governmental agency having the responsibility for guarding him, the secret service, has a natural hesitancy to say, "you can't do this." representative boggs. of course, for the record, president kennedy had the same difficulty. mr. hoover. that is right. it was best expressed at parkland hospital. one of president kennedy's staff made the statement that the whole fault in this matter was that, in the choice between politics and security, politics was chosen. that is exactly what happened. it was an open car. i am thoroughly opposed to the president riding in an open car. they did not have any armored car in the secret service at that time. i have now sent one of our armored cars over for the president, but it is a closed limousine. but on occasion, such as at gettysburg and atlanta the other day, the president got out of the armored car which had been flown there for his use, and commandeered the car of the secret service which is wide open, so he could wave and see the people. now, that is a great hazard. i think he should always be in an armored car that is closed, that can't have the top put down. but as you recall, president kennedy had the bubble top off of the car that he was in. it was not armored and the bubble top was made of plastic so a bullet could have gone through it very easily. representative ford. mr. hoover, you have categorically testified that the fbi never at any time had oswald as an agent, as an informant, or in any other way. mr. hoover. that is correct. i couldn't make it more emphatic. representative ford. and mr. belmont testified to the same last week when he was before us. mr. hoover. yes, sir. representative ford. both you and he would be fully familiar with all of the records of the fbi in this regard? mr. hoover. we would, and we would not only be fully familiar with it because while mr. belmont is in charge of the investigative branch of the bureau--we have two assistants to the director, one in charge of administrative work and the other in charge of investigative work--we have also checked the administrative records where vouchers or payments would have been made and there is no indication that any money was ever paid to oswald. we have obtained, and they are on file with the commission, the affidavits of the agents, who at various times were in contact with oswald, to the effect that he was not an informant; that they had never paid him anything; that he was being questioned as to possible recruitment by the soviet intelligence; so there was no evidence at any time indicating employment by the fbi. representative ford. and you were not under any limitation or restriction from any other authority in this regard? mr. hoover. absolutely not. i have the entire control of whether a man shall be an informant or shall not be an informant. that comes under my chain of command from the local office which has the matter at hand. they can't just put on an informant without our approval. the recommendation on security informants comes to the bureau; it goes through the assistant director of the domestic intelligence division, and, in significant cases, goes to mr. belmont, and then to my desk for my specific approval. so i, or my seat-of-government staff, have to approve every one of those who are used as informants in all classes of cases, not only in intelligence cases but in white-slave cases, automobile thefts, and all of these cases. representative ford. there is no limitation on what you can tell us about this situation? mr. hoover. none whatsoever. representative ford. no limitation; no restrictions? mr. hoover. no restriction. so far as the record of vouchers in the bureau are concerned, they are open to the inspection of this commission at any time going back as far as you may want to go. senator cooper. may i ask just one question there? i think you have answered it, but in your examination of this aspect as to whether or not oswald was an informer or employee or held any relationship to the fbi, you, yourself, have looked into all of the means you have of determining that fact when you make the statement to us? mr. hoover. i have personally looked into that for two reasons: because the president asked me personally to take charge of this investigation and to direct it, and i knew that the report ultimately would be made to him. for that reason i became familiar with every step and every action that was taken. then when the allegation was made by someone--i think it was the mother of oswald first, if i recall correctly--that he was employed by some government agency, the cia, or fbi, and maybe both, i insisted upon a check being made and any record showing any indication of that being brought to me. when they could find none, i then asked for affidavits from the field force that had dealt with oswald as to whether they had hired him or paid him anything or given him anything, and the affidavits are on file here that they had not. senator cooper. i think you have said there is no sum available to the fbi which would enable these men, these agents, to employ him out of any funds that are made available to them. mr. hoover. oh, no; it must be done by voucher, and those vouchers are examined by the general accounting office every year or so. we have no lump sum in the field offices for employment of informants as such which is not supported by vouchers. senator cooper. i have just about two questions, i may have to go in a few minutes to the senate. i would like to direct your attention to that period of time when oswald was a defector, beginning when he left the united states and when he returned. mr. hoover. yes, sir. senator cooper. during that period, did the fbi have any jurisdiction over intelligence regarding him, or any capacity to know? mr. hoover. while he was in russia? senator cooper. yes. mr. hoover. no; we did not. we were interested in knowing what he might say in russia that appeared in the press. that was our first intimation that this man had defected, when we read it in a newspaper article. we were, of course, interested in knowing when he would return or if he would return. we had no jurisdiction as to what he was doing in russia after he had gone there. senator cooper. as i understand it, you had no capacity at that time to follow his activities? mr. hoover. that is true. we have no agents in russia. foreign intelligence is handled by the central intelligence agency, and our responsibility is domestic. we work very closely together. senator cooper. have you had the jurisdiction since the assassination or the occasion to examine persons connected with the state department concerning the activities of oswald in russia? mr. hoover. well---- senator cooper. would that be a matter for some other agency? mr. hoover. that could be a matter for cia or for us after oswald had returned here. senator cooper. yes. mr. hoover. then he becomes a civilian in the country here. now, there is what we call a delimitation agreement among the government intelligence agencies. for instance, the military branches of the government have their own intelligence services and they handle all military deviations in regard to espionage or things of that kind. if they want our assistance and ask for it we, of course, will always cooperate. in regard to cia, there are many cases which cia and the fbi work jointly on, of individuals that may have been recruited over in europe by the cia, not by us, because we don't have authority to do that abroad, but when that man comes to this country, the best ends of intelligence are served by having the two agencies work very closely together, conduct joint interviews, and exchange information very, very freely. that has been going on ever since i can recall cia being existence. mr. dulles. i would like to testify to the fact that that cooperation existed during the whole period i was director, and i am sure it has continued now with great cooperation on both sides. mr. hoover. it is a very necessary thing, because the intelligence agency of many of these foreign countries will cover the whole world and the country itself. whereas in this country you have separate agencies covering espionage activities. cia covers the foreign activity, and the fbi the domestic activities, and they must be interlocking. an espionage agent of the soviet government can arrive in new york today by plane from paris and he can be in mexico city tomorrow. then, cia would pick him up there. we would not pick him up there. we would watch him while in this country, but as soon as he takes that plane and leaves the united states cia moves in on him. if he comes back to the united states, we move in on him. therefore, we have a very close liaison. as a matter of fact, what we have done in government agencies is to have a liaison agent in our bureau assigned to contact cia, the pentagon, state department, and various other agencies to cut out the red tape of writing letters back and forth. in order to orally relay information which has come to his attention, our representative can immediately phone it over to the fbi, and if there is need, for instance, to meet a plane coming in to new york or a boat that is docking at new york, it is all accomplished within a matter of minutes or an hour. if you went through this letter-writing process and the paper war that goes on so often in the government it might take a week or days. the fbi does have legal attaches attached to embassies abroad. their purpose is not operational. they don't investigate in those countries any matters that have to be investigated. that, if it is to be done, is handled by cia. our purpose in being there is to maintain liaison with our opposite number such as the surete nationale in france and with the national police in the philippines, to exchange information that is vital to our internal security, and also vital to the internal security of the other country. senator cooper. may i ask one other question? is there any, considering the number of defectors in the united states to communist countries, which cannot be large, i would assume---- mr. hoover. i think there are about . senator cooper. which would indicate, i would think either a lack of reliability on their part and stability or beyond that a dedicated purpose to become communists, then upon their return, wouldn't it seem to you they should be given some special attention? mr. hoover. we have now---- senator cooper. to determine whether they are a risk to become soviet or communist espionage agents or in fact become dangerous? mr. hoover. we have taken steps to plug that gap. prior to the assassination of the president, a defector, before he came back was always cleared for return by a representative of the state department or the military abroad. when he came back we immediately interviewed him if he was a civilian. it had to be done promptly to determine whether he could be a potential intelligence agent. now, in december of last year, following the assassination, we expanded the criteria of what should be furnished to the secret service, and all defectors automatically go on the list to be furnished to the secret service. there are defectors that we know of in this country who have been under investigation. some of those men may have changed their views sincerely. some of them may not have. but as a matter of general precaution, as a result of the oswald situation, we are seeing that all go to the secret service. mr. dulles. that includes military defectors, does it not? mr. hoover. military defectors and defectors from any private agency, after they return to the u.s. and become civilians. some have defected to china, to the satellite nations and to russia. senator cooper. just one other question, because i have to go. in the course of this investigation, as you know so well, there have been a number identified who were very close, at least to mrs. oswald, and a few, i can't say that were close to oswald yet they had association with him, such as the man who drove him back and forth, mrs. paine, with whom mrs. oswald lived, and others, has there been any credible, i won't say credible because if you had you would have presented it to us in your report, has there been any claims by persons that these people are in any way related to the communist party? mr. hoover. we have had no credible evidence that they have been related to the communist party in this country. now, as to mrs. oswald, the wife of oswald, there is no way of knowing whether she belonged to the russian communist party in russia. she is a rather intelligent woman, and notwithstanding that you have to talk with her through an interpreter, we have had no indication of her association with communists in this country, nor have any of her close friends or relatives. as to his mother, we found no indication she is associated or closely associated with the communists. she is the only one of the group that we have come in contact with that i would say is somewhat emotionally unstable. our agents have interviewed her. she sometimes gets very angry and she won't answer questions. as to the rest of the group who had been friends of his, or worked with him in the texas school book depository, none of them have indicated any communist associations of any kind. senator cooper. thank you. mr. hoover. thank you. mr. rankin. mr. hoover, i hand you exhibit and ask you to examine that and state whether or not that is the letter that you referred to in which you answered questions of the commission concerning the national enquirer magazine or newspaper? mr. hoover. this letter of may addressed to the commission is the letter that dealt with our interview with chief curry and was predicated upon the article which appeared in the national enquirer of may , . mr. rankin. i ask you if you would care to add anything to that letter except what you have already testified to? mr. hoover. no; i have nothing to add to that. chief curry was very specific, i am told by my agent in charge at dallas, that this article is an absolute lie; that none of these things set forth in the article occurred; that he received no phone call or any request of any kind oral or by phone or in writing from the department of justice or from the fbi. as i stated earlier, the report from the department of justice indicated that they made no request. mr. rankin. mr. chairman, i offer in evidence exhibit , being the letter just referred to. the chairman. it may be admitted. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification and received in evidence.) mr. rankin. mr. hoover, is exhibit the article that you referred to in the national enquirer? mr. hoover. yes; that is the one. mr. rankin. i call your attention to exhibit and ask you if that is the letter that you referred to which describes the criteria in the handling of the security of the president that you have described in your testimony. mr. hoover. this is the letter. it sets forth the criteria which were adopted, originally about and later incorporated in the manual of instructions in . it also includes the amended instructions to our field offices, prepared in december of , which extended the criteria. mr. rankin. does that exhibit correctly set forth the information you had in regard to those matters? mr. hoover. it does. mr. rankin. do you care to add anything to it? mr. hoover. no; i have nothing to add to it at all. mr. rankin. now, in light of what happened. mr. hoover, i think the commission would desire to have your comments or whatever you care to tell them, concerning the reasons why you did not furnish the information you had concerning lee harvey oswald to the secret service prior to the time of the president's assassination. mr. hoover. well, i have gone into that very thoroughly because that was obviously one of the questions that i had in my mind when the tragedy occurred in dallas. in going back over the record, and i have read each one of the reports dealing with that and the reports of mr. hosty who had dealt with the oswald situation largely in dallas, we had the matter that i have previously referred to, the report of the state department that indicated this man was a thoroughly safe risk, he had changed his views, he was a loyal man now and had seen the light of day, so to speak. how intensive or how extensive that interview in moscow was, i don't know. but, nevertheless, it was in a state department document that was furnished to us. now, we interviewed oswald a few days after he arrived. we did not interview him on arrival at the port of entry because that is always undesirable by reason of the fact it is heavily covered by press, and any relatives generally are there, so we prefer to do it after the man has settled down for two or three days and become composed. we do it in the privacy of our office or wherever he may be, or in his own home or apartment. we interviewed him twice in regard to that angle that we were looking for. we had no indication at this time of anything other than his so-called marxist leanings, marxist beliefs. we wanted to know whether he had been recruited by the soviet government as an intelligence agent, which is a frequent and constant practice. there is not a year goes by but that individuals and groups of individuals, sometimes on these cultural exchanges, go through russia and recruits are enlisted by the russian intelligence, usually through blackmail. the individual is threatened that if he doesn't come back to this country and work for them they will expose the fact that he is a homosexual or a degenerate or has been indiscrete. pictures are usually taken of individuals who become implicated in that sort of thing, so the individual is really desperate. such blackmail has occurred year after year for some time. in oswald's case we had no suspicion that any pressure like that had been brought to bear on him because he had gone voluntarily and had obviously wanted to live in russia and had married a russian woman. after those interviews had been completed, the next incident was the difficulty he had at new orleans. we were concerned there as to whether he was functioning officially for the fair play for cuba committee which was financed and supported by castro and castro's government, and if he was, where he obtained money and with whom he had dealt. he apparently had the leaflets printed himself on plain ordinary paper. there was no reason for us, then, to have any suspicion that he had any element of danger in him. however, we did not ignore or forget the fact that he was still in the country. we kept track of him when he went from new orleans to dallas, and that was one of the reasons why hosty went to the home of mrs. paine. she told us where oswald was working, at the texas book house. hosty gave her his telephone number and his name so that if there was any information or any contact she wanted to make she could phone him at the dallas office. mrs. oswald, the wife, took down the license number of hosty's car which was incorrect only in one digit. the name, the telephone number, and the automobile license were later found in oswald's memorandum book. however, that in itself was not significant because many times we will go to see a person and tell him now, "if you think of anything you want to tell us or you have any information you want to give us, here are my name and address, telephone number, and call me," and that is what was done with mrs. paine because hosty wasn't there at the time. he was at work. incidentally, those items in oswald's notebook requiring investigative attention were first set out in an investigative report of our dallas office dated december , . this report was not prepared for this commission but rather for investigative purposes of the fbi and, therefore, the information concerning hosty's name, telephone number and license number was not included in the report as the circumstances under which hosty's name, et cetera, appeared in oswald's notebook were fully known to the fbi. after our investigative report of december , , was furnished to the commission, we noted that agent hosty's name did not appear in the report. in order that there would be a complete reporting of all items in oswald's notebook, this information was incorporated in another investigative report of our dallas office, dated february , . both of the above-mentioned reports were furnished to the commission prior to any inquiry concerning this matter by the president's commission. there was nothing up to the time of the assassination that gave any indication that this man was a dangerous character who might do harm to the president or to the vice president. up to that time, as has been indicated. mr. rankin. mr. hoover, may i interrupt, you said hosty was not there at the time, he was at work--did you mean mr. oswald? mr. hoover. that was my mistake. i meant mr. oswald. hosty talked with mrs. paine and mrs. oswald. mrs. paine speaks russian and she could interpret for her. oswald was at the texas book co., and then, as i say, hosty left his telephone number and name, and mrs. oswald for some reason took down the license number. i don't know whether she was convinced this was an agent of the fbi, or why she did it. but, anyway, that was in the book that was later found, and which contained many other things that oswald had entered in the book. now, as i say, up to that time, there had been no information that would have warranted our reporting him as a potential danger or hazard to the security or the safety of the president or the vice president, so his name was not furnished at the time to secret service. under the new criteria which we have now put into force and effect, it would have been furnished because we now include all defectors. as to the original criteria, which we felt were sound and sufficient and which we felt no one, not even the most extreme civil rights proponent could take exception to, we limited the furnishing of names to s.s. to persons potentially dangerous to the physical well being of the president. we included emotionally unstable people who had threatened the president or vice president. at my office during the course of a week there are sometimes three or four callers who have to be taken to a hospital because of their mental condition. they claim they are being persecuted by radio beams and they want to see me or the president to have those beams stopped. now you never know what tangent they are going to take. if such a person is living in some part of the country where the president may be going his name would be furnished to the secret service. one car last year, i think, crashed through the gates of the white house; the person driving wanted to see the president. the guard wouldn't let him in and so the car crashed through and got within feet of the first door. the guards, by that time, had their revolvers out and took him into custody. last year a gentleman drove all the way from arizona to see me. he drove up the marble steps of the department of justice, and by that time the guards had come out and took him into custody. i think he was incarcerated in arizona. people of this type are among those we would have furnished to the secret service. they have the potential to harm somebody. we get names from members of congress, of people who come to the capitol and try to threaten them or harass them. they let us know about it, and we make the investigation or advise the police. if we can get the family to have the person put into an institution, we try to do so. if they don't, we may take steps to have him incarcerated through other legal means. mr. dulles. how many names, mr. director, in general, could the secret service process? aren't their facilities limited as to dealing with vast numbers of names because of their limited personnel? mr. hoover. i think they are extremely limited. the secret service is a very small organization and that is why we are fortifying them, so to speak, or supplementing them by assigning agents of our bureau which is, of course, quite a burden on us. our agents are assigned about to cases per agent and cover such involved matters as bankruptcy and antitrust cases. now, the secret service has a very small group and i would estimate that the names we have sent over number some , . i would guess there are about another , that will go over in the next month to them. frankly, i don't see how they can go out and recheck those names. we keep the records up to date; if additional information comes in on these names we furnish it to the secret service. they will have to call upon the local authorities, unless the secret service force is enlarged considerably so that they can handle it entirely on their own. i think the secret service is entirely too small a force today to handle the duties that they are handling. the great crowds that are at the white house all the time, around the gates, that go to church where the president goes, all of those things, of course, have to be checked over by them. they always check in advance and just recently, a few sundays ago, they found some individuals in the basement of st. mark's church in washington, where he was going to attend on sunday morning. his arrival was held up until they could ascertain who they were. they were deaf mutes whose identity had not been cleared with the secret service. now, the presidential party was delayed about or minutes in reaching the church by reason of the radio call to the white house to hold it up. we are giving to secret service more and more names. the total, in addition to the names they already had, will reach , . i don't see how they are going to be able to handle the situation as they would want to handle it. they have to depend upon local police organizations. many local police departments are capable and efficient; some are not. many have good judgment and some have not. wherever you have a police department of , , , , , men you are bound to find a few who will just barge in and do something which better judgment would dictate should not be done, as in the incident which occurred in the midwest where they placed people practically under house arrest. i think it was very bad judgment and should not have been done but the secret service, of course, turned the names over to the local authorities, and the local authorities do what they think is right. now, i guess their attitude with all justice to them is. "well, we will resolve the risk in our favor. if we keep these people under surveillance and keep them in the house until the president gets out of town nothing can happen from them." that is what you would call totalitarian security. i don't think you can have that kind of security in this country without having a great wave of criticism against it. there is a great tendency for people to expect the intelligence forces and the law enforcement agencies to be able to go out and arrest people and bring them in and hold them endlessly and talk to them. we can't arrest a person, without probable cause, or unless he commits a crime in our presence. we have to arraign him promptly and if not done promptly, the confession that he may have made generally cannot be used against him. just as a collateral matter we faced that problem in california in the case of the kidnapping of frank sinatra, jr. one of the kidnappers we arrested near san diego confessed but we didn't arraign him because the other kidnappers would have left california and it would have been difficult to find them. however, the next day after arraignment he made changes in the confession and signed it so the court held that it was admissible. the secret service, of course, is faced with the same problem. they just can't arrest people because they may not like their looks. they have to have facts justifying detention but the public conception is that you have a full right to go out and do these things. we have stressed in the fbi that there must be full compliance with the laws of this country and with the decisions of the supreme court. that is the law of the country. now, whether a person likes it or not and there are some groups that are very violent against the decisions of the court while others are very much in favor of them, it is not for the fbi to take sides. we have a job to do and we do it under the rulings of the courts and we have been able to do it effectively. i know when the ruling came down on the prompt arraignment, there was great shouting and some strong editorials claiming that it was going to wreck law enforcement. it hasn't wrecked us. it has made it more difficult but i think we have to face up to the fact that law enforcement in a free country must abide by the laws of that country irrespective of how difficult it is. some persons talk about putting handcuffs on the law enforcement officers and taking them off the criminals. that is a nice catch phrase to use in a speech or article but operating within the law has not interfered with our work. mr. rankin. mr. hoover, i ask you about exhibit which is first a letter and then encloses certain affidavits of your agents. mr. hoover. yes, sir. mr. rankin. you are familiar with that? mr. hoover. i am familiar with that. i read all of that and signed it. mr. rankin. you know those are the affidavits in regard to whether lee harvey oswald was an agent or connected in anyway with the bureau that you have just testified to? mr. hoover. that is correct; and the affidavits of all agents, who had any contact with him. mr. rankin. i call your attention to exhibits and , and ask you if you have seen those before or, you have seen the original of and is a photostatic copy of your letter to us in answer to , is that correct? mr. hoover. that is correct; yes. i recall very distinctly. mr. rankin. do you recall those letters involved an inquiry as to any connections of lee harvey oswald with communists or any criminal groups or others that might be conspiratorial? mr. hoover. that is correct; and my letter of april states the facts as they are in our files. mr. rankin. mr. chairman, we offer in evidence exhibits and . the chairman. they may be admitted. (commission exhibit nos. and were marked for identification and received in evidence.) mr. rankin. mr. hoover, do you have any suggestions that you would like to tell the commission about of your ideas that might improve the security of the president, and you might comment upon information the commission has received. you have a special appropriation that is related to that area. mr. hoover. well, i, at the request of---- the chairman. director, before you get into that question, and may i ask something that i would like to hear you discuss in this same connection? mr. hoover. yes. the chairman. you have told us that you had no jurisdiction down there in dallas over this crime. mr. hoover. that is correct. the chairman. because there is no federal crime committed. and i assume that that caused you some embarrassment and some confusion in doing your work? mr. hoover. it most certainly did. the chairman. because of the likelihood of your being in conflict with other authorities. do you believe there should be a federal law? mr. hoover. i am very strongly in favor of that. the chairman. against an attempt to assassinate the president? mr. hoover. i am very strongly in favor of legislation being enacted and enacted promptly that will make a federal crime of attempts upon the life of the president and the vice president, and possibly the next two persons in succession, the speaker and the president pro tempore of the senate. in the oswald case, we could not take custody of him. if we had had jurisdiction we would have taken custody of him and i do not believe he would have been killed by rubenstein. the failure to have jurisdiction was extremely embarrassing. i think the killing of oswald has created a great fog of speculation that will go on for years, because of the things that oswald might have been able to tell which would have been of assistance in pinning down various phases of this matter. this must be done now by collecting evidence from third parties, and not from oswald himself. now, as to the publicity that took place in dallas, i was very much concerned with that. we have in the fbi a crime laboratory that furnishes free service to all law enforcement agencies of the country. any law enforcement agency can send to our laboratory here in washington any evidence--blood, dirt, dust, guns, anything of that kind--and our laboratory examines it and then reports back to the contributing police department. this was being done in the early stages of the oswald case, and almost as soon as the report would reach the dallas police department, the chief of police or one of the representatives of the department would go on tv or radio and relate findings of the fbi, giving information such as the identification of the gun and other items of physical evidence. now, that concerned me for several reasons. in the first place, i don't think cases should be tried in the newspapers. i think a short and simple statement can be made when a person is arrested, but the details of the evidence should be retained until you go into court to try the case. secondly, it creates a great deal of speculation on the part of the press. there was very aggressive press coverage at dallas. i was so concerned that i asked my agent in charge at dallas, mr. shanklin, to personally go to chief curry and tell him that i insisted that he not go on the air any more until this case was resolved. until all the evidence had been examined, i did not want any statements made concerning the progress of the investigation. because of the fact the president had asked me to take charge of the case i insisted that he and all members of his department refrain from public statements. there was an officer in his department who was constantly on the radio or giving out interviews. the chief concurred in my request and thereafter refrained from further comment but of course by that time the identification of the gun was known, the caliber of the gun, where it had come from, where it had been bought and the information we had run down in chicago and had furnished to the dallas police department. if the case had been in the hands of the fbi none of that information would have been given out. because of the publicity you had to face the charge that the prejudice of the community would require a change of venue. with the publicity, i don't know where you could have changed the venue to, since newspapers all over the state covered it. i think a houston reporter was the first one who wrote that oswald was an informant of the fbi. we went to the newspaper reporter. he refused to tell us his source. he said he had also heard it from other persons. we asked him the names of these persons and we interviewed them but none of them would provide the source. in other words, i was trying to nail down where this lie started. that, of course, is always the result where you are daily giving out press interviews because the press wants stories desperately. we have always adopted the policy in the bureau of no comment until we have the warrant and make the arrest. then a release is prepared briefly stating what the facts are, what the written complaint says, the fact. the complaint was filed with the commissioner, and that ends it. we don't try to run it out for a week or days. it is up to the u.s. attorney thereafter and the court to try the case. i was concerned about the demand for change of venue, because all the evidence was being given out. at that time, of course, we didn't know that oswald was going to be killed, and there was a possibility that he might be confronted with some of this evidence. if it had been kept secret and used in the interrogation of him, just confronting him with what was found, such as his picture with the gun might have been helpful. a small thing can often make a man break and come forward with a full confession. if he knows in advance that you have certain evidence he will be on guard against answering questions. of course, he is always advised of his rights and that he can have an attorney. we always make a point of this. we generally have a reputable physician of the community present in our office while the prisoner is there, to administer to him and be able to testify that he has not been subjected to third degree methods. he is examined when he comes in and he is examined before we take him to the commissioner. taking him before the commissioner in a case like oswald's would probably have been done within or hours. generally we try to arraign a prisoner within an hour. that makes it more difficult; you have to work faster. but again i say i am in favor of having the procedures of law enforcement officers as tightly bound down as we can, with due respect for the interests of society. of course, there must be an equal balance. for years we have had a rule against third degree methods, but years ago many police departments used the third degree. i think very few of them use it now because if they use it they violate the civil rights statutes and we investigate them for having brutally handled a prisoner. many allegations are made unfairly against police officers that they have used third degree methods and we are able to prove they haven't in our investigations. that is particularly true where civil rights matters are involved. we have such cases in many areas where civil rights agitation is going on. mr. rankin. mr. hoover, to remind you of my question, any suggestions that you may have concerning the protection of the president, and the information that the commission has that you have a special appropriation in that connection for the bureau? mr. hoover. we do not have a special appropriation for the protection of the president. the secret service, of course, has that responsibility. on december , i prepared this memorandum for the president, and for the chief of the secret service at the request of the president, outlining suggestions that i felt should be considered to tighten up on the security of the president. if the commission desires i will be glad to leave this or i will be glad to read it to the commission. representative boggs. why don't you ask the director just to summarize it. mr. rankin. will you summarize it? mr. dulles. can we have a copy of it? mr. hoover. oh, yes. representative ford. could the copy be put in the record as an exhibit? mr. hoover. yes, sir; that is all right with me. i have no objection to it. regarding travel, first, advise the secret service as far in advance as possible of the president's travel plans and proposed itinerary. the reason for that is there have been presidents who suddenly decide they are going somewhere and the secret service does not have the chance always to cover the area and check the neighborhood and check the hotel or place where it may be. representative boggs. you have one like that right now, mr. director. mr. hoover. i know from experience. second, avoid publicizing exact routes of travel as long as possible. again, it has been the practice in the past to announce the president is going along a certain route and, therefore, great crowds will gather along that route. and, therefore, i thought that was something that should not be given out and the president should be taken along some routes which are not announced. at the present time, he goes to cities and he wants to see people and the crowd wants to see him. in dallas, the route was publicized at least hours before so everybody knew where he would be driving. third, use a specially armored car with bulletproof glass and have such cars readily available in locations frequently visited. the president, as i observed earlier in my testimony, had no armored car. he has one now which i supplied to secret service and they will have one made no doubt in due time for the president's use. but if it had been armored, i believe president kennedy would be alive today. fourth, avoid setting a specific pattern of travel or other activity such as visiting the same church at the same time each sunday. regarding public appearances. first, use maximum feasible screening of persons in attendance including use of detection devices sensitive to the amount of metal required in a firearm or grenade. second, use a bulletproof shield in front of the entire rostrum in public appearances such as the swearing in ceremony at the capitol on inauguration day, the presidential reviewing stand in front of the white house on the same day and on the rear of trains. third, keep to a minimum the president's movements within crowds, remain on the rostrum after the public addresses rather than mingling with the audience. again, there is great difficulty in that field. fourth, in appearances at public sporting events such as football games, remain in one place rather than changing sides during half-time ceremonies. (discussion off the record.) mr. dulles. about the armored car you said if kennedy had an armored car that might have saved him. would the back of the armored car have some protection to protect his head? mr. hoover. oh, yes. mr. dulles. because if the armored car had been open---- mr. hoover. he must never ride in an open car; that has been my recommendation. mr. dulles. the back never comes down? mr. hoover. the back never comes down, and it is bulletproof. the top, sides, and underpart are all of bulletproof construction. so that except by opening a window and waving through the window the occupant is safe. a person can shoot through the window if the glass window is lowered. fifth, limit public appearances by use of television whenever possible. sixth, avoid walking in public except when absolutely necessary. now, on legislation. first, i recommended that the president and the vice president be added to the list of federal officers set out in section , title of the u.s. code which deals with assaults which are punishable under federal law. mr. rankin. you would add to that i understood from your prior remarks, the speaker and the president pro tempore? mr. hoover. in view of the situation which prevails at the present time the speaker and president pro tempore, in other words, the line of succession under the constitution but not below that. (discussion off the record.) mr. hoover. second, furnish the secret service authority to request assistance and cooperation from other u.s. agencies including the military, particularly in connection with foreign travel. now, my reason for that is that sometimes requests for assistance have to clear through red-tape channels here at washington through some high official of government. if an emergency arises abroad, or even in this country, it may be of such character that you do not have time to telephone back to washington or to telephone back to the pentagon. aid ought to be immediately available by calling on the local authorities and the nearest military authority. third, improve control of the sale of firearms requiring as a minimum registration of every firearm sold together with adequate identification of the purchaser. the problem of firearms control is under extensive debate, in both the house and senate at the present time. the gun that oswald used was bought by mail order from a mail-order house in chicago, no license for it, no permit for it, no checkup on it. the only way we were able to trace it was to find out where in this country that italian-made gun was sold. we found the company in chicago and later the mail-order slip that had been sent by oswald to chicago to get the gun. now, there are arguments, of course---- mr. dulles. in a false name. mr. hoover. in a false name. there is argument, of course, that by passing firearms legislation you are going to take the privilege of hunting away from the sportsmen of the country. i don't share that view with any great degree of sympathy because you have to get a license to drive an automobile and you have to get a license to have a dog, and i see no reason why a man shouldn't be willing, if he is a law-abiding citizen, to have a license to get a firearm whether it be a rifle or revolver or other firearm. it is not going to curtail his exercise of shooting for sport because the police make a check of his background. if he is a man who is entitled to a gun, a law-abiding citizen, a permit will be granted. of course, today firearms control is practically negligible, and i think some steps should be taken along that line. fourth, a ban on picketing within the vicinity of the white house as is now done at the u.s. capitol and supreme court. some of these pickets are well-meaning and law-abiding individuals, some are for peace and some are more or less dedicated communists. representative boggs. it is illegal to picket a federal court now, mr. director, i happen to be the author of that law. mr. hoover. yes; i am glad you had that law passed. of course, they picket public buildings, they march around the department of justice building, now and then, but the principal places they prefer to go are the supreme court building, the capitol and its grounds and the white house. i think such picketing at the white house, of large or small groups, should be forbidden. i think at the white house they tried to get the pickets to walk across the street along lafayette park. that at least takes them away from being close to the gates at the white house. i think there ought to be some control. picketing, of course, is legitimate if it is orderly. many times it doesn't continue to be orderly, and sometimes pickets, as in this city, have thrown themselves on the pavement and the police have to come and pick them up or drag them away. then, of course, the charge is made of brutality right away. delegations of colored groups have visited me and asked why i don't arrest a police officer for hitting some negro whom he is arresting in a sit-in strike, lay-in strike or demonstration in some southern cities. we have no authority to make an arrest of that kind. under the authority the bureau has we have to submit those complaints to the department of justice and if they authorize us to make an arrest we will do it. those in general are the recommendations i made and i will furnish the committee with a copy of this memorandum. mr. rankin. mr. hoover, i would like to ask you in regard to your recommendations, do you think you have adequately taken into account that the president is not only the chief executive but also necessarily a politician under our system? mr. hoover. i have taken that into account, and i would like to say this off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. rankin. that is all i have, mr. chairman. the chairman. any other questions, gentlemen? representative boggs. i would just like to thank the director again for all the help he has given us. mr. hoover. i am happy to. the chairman. i would, too, on behalf of the commission, mr. director, i would not only like to thank you for your testimony but for your cooperation that your people have given us throughout this entire investigation. mr. hoover. thank you very much. the chairman. i also want to add one other thing, having in mind the testimony you gave that this is still an open investigation, that should anything come to your attention that you believe this commission has either overlooked or should look into you feel free to ask us to do it. mr. hoover. i would most certainly do that. the chairman. you do it. mr. hoover. i want to give all the cooperation i can to this most difficult task you have. representative ford. one question. the other day when we had the state, justice, judiciary appropriation bill before the full committee on appropriations---- mr. hoover. yes. representative ford. and i am not a member of that subcommittee, i noticed a provision in the bill, as i recall, to the effect funds for or something of that content, of fbi responsibilities for the protection of the president. mr. hoover. there is a provision for funds that we can use for the apprehension of a man who has been declared a fugitive from justice, that is where a man has committed a crime, a warrant is out for him and he has fled or where he has escaped from a penitentiary. i don't recall offhand any specific appropriation for the protection of the president. i will look at the appropriation bill. i may be wrong there but i am quite certain that is so. representative ford. it was my recollection as i was looking at the bill in committee there was a phrase to this effect in the language of the bill. i think it might be helpful for the record to get whatever the history is of that if it is still a matter of the bill or the law. mr. hoover. i remember that at the time mr. curtis was vice president, he was senator and then vice president, at that time he insisted that he wanted fbi agents with him and nobody else. when mr. nixon took office as vice president he was protected by the secret service and with mr. johnson, it was the same thing. secret service asked us to let them have additional manpower, as a matter of assistance, and we have done so. representative ford. i think it would be helpful if you would have a memorandum prepared. mr. hoover. i will be glad to. representative ford. showing the history of this provision from its inception and whether or not it is in the bill or the proposed law for fiscal . mr. hoover. yes, sir. representative ford. and the justification you have indicated. mr. hoover. that was not taken up, i know, in the testimony before the appropriations committee. i gave the testimony before the committee in january, and the testimony wasn't released until weeks ago when the bill was reported out. it was not discussed in the hearings. mr. rankin. mr. chairman, in order to complete the record, may i ask to have the number assigned to the memo that mr. hoover is going to send about protection of the president, and have it admitted to this record under that number. the chairman. yes; it may be. representative ford. also a number for this letter mr. hoover is going to submit. mr. rankin. may i assign ? the chairman. yes. (commission exhibit nos. and were marked for identification and received in evidence.) testimony of john a. mccone and richard m. helms the chairman. the commission will be in order. director mccone, it is customary for the chairman to make a short statement to the witness as to the testimony that is expected to be given. i will read it at this time. mr. mccone will be asked to testify on whether lee harvey oswald was ever an agent, directly or indirectly, or an informer or acting on behalf of the central intelligence agency in any capacity at any time, and whether he knows of any credible evidence or of any conspiracy either domestic or foreign involved in the assassination of president kennedy, also with regard to any suggestions and recommendations he may have concerning improvements or changes in provisions for the protection of the president of the united states. would you please rise and be sworn? do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. mccone. i do. the chairman. will you be seated, please? mr. rankin will conduct the examination. mr. rankin. mr. mccone, will you state your name? mr. mccone. my name is john alex mccone. mr. rankin. do you have an official position with the u.s. government? mr. mccone. yes, sir; i am director of central intelligence. mr. rankin. have you been director for some time? mr. mccone. yes; a little over - / years. mr. rankin. where do you live, mr. mccone? mr. mccone. i live at whitehaven street in washington. mr. rankin. are you familiar with the records and how they are kept by the central intelligence agency as to whether a man is acting as an informer, agent, employee, or in any other capacity for that agency? mr. mccone. yes; i am generally familiar with the procedures and the records that are maintained by the central intelligence agency. quite naturally, i am not familiar with all of the records because they are very extensive. mr. rankin. have you determined whether or not lee harvey oswald, the suspect in connection with the assassination of president kennedy, had any connection with the central intelligence agency, informer or indirectly as an employee, or any other capacity? mr. mccone. yes; i have determined to my satisfaction that he had no such connection, and i would like to read for the record---- mr. rankin. will you tell us briefly the extent of your inquiry? mr. mccone. in a form of affidavit, i have gone into the matter in considerable detail personally, in my inquiry with the appropriate people within the agency, examined all records in our files relating to lee harvey oswald. we had knowledge of him, of course, because of his having gone to the soviet union, as he did, putting him in a situation where his name would appear in our name file. however, my examination has resulted in the conclusion that lee harvey oswald was not an agent, employee, or informant of the central intelligence agency. the agency never contacted him, interviewed him, talked with him, or received or solicited any reports or information from him, or communicated with him directly or in any other manner. the agency never furnished him with any funds or money or compensated him directly or indirectly in any fashion, and lee harvey oswald was never associated or connected directly or indirectly in any way whatsoever with the agency. when i use the term "agency," i mean the central intelligence agency, of course. representative ford. does that include whether or not he was in the united states, in the soviet union, or anyplace? mr. mccone. anyplace; the united states, soviet union, or anyplace. mr. rankin. mr. mccone, is that the affidavit you are going to supply the commission in connection with our request for it? mr. mccone. yes; this is the substance of the affidavit which i will supply to you. mr. rankin. mr. chairman, i ask leave to mark that exhibit and have it introduced in evidence as soon as we receive it from mr. mccone as a part of this record. the chairman. it may be admitted. (commission exhibit no. was marked for identification and received in evidence.) mr. rankin. would you tell us about your procedures in regard to having an agent or informer or any person acting in that type of capacity? does that have to pass through your hands or come to your attention in the agency? mr. mccone. no; it does not have to come through my personal hands. mr. rankin. without disclosing something that might be a security matter, could you tell us how that is handled in a general way in the agency? mr. mccone. mr. helms, who is directly responsible for that division of the agency's activities as a deputy director, might explain. would that be permissible? mr. rankin. could we have him sworn then? the chairman. yes. the chairman. would you raise your right hand and be sworn. do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. helms. i do. mr. rankin. mr. helms, you heard the inquiry just directed to mr. mccone. could you answer the question directly? mr. helms. yes; we have a specific procedure which we follow in all cases where the agency is in contact, for the purposes of acquiring intelligence or whatever the case may be, with an individual. we not only have a record of the individual's name, but we also usually get information of a biographical nature. we then check this individual's name against our record. at that point we make a determination as to whether we desire to use this man or not to use him. it varies from case to case as to how many officers may be involved in approving a specific recruitment. may i go off the record? (discussion off the record.) mr. rankin. mr. helms, did you have anything to do on behalf of your agency with determining whether or not lee harvey oswald was acting in any of the capacities i have described in my questions to mr. mccone? mr. helms. yes; i did. mr. rankin. will you tell us what you did in that regard? mr. helms. on mr. mccone's behalf, i had all of our records searched to see if there had been any contacts at any time prior to president kennedy's assassination by anyone in the central intelligence agency with lee harvey oswald. we checked our card files and our personnel files and all our records. now, this check turned out to be negative. in addition i got in touch with those officers who were in positions of responsibility at the times in question to see if anybody had any recollection of any contact having even been suggested with this man. this also turned out to be negative, so there is no material in the central intelligence agency, either in the records or in the mind of any of the individuals, that there was any contact had or even contemplated with him. mr. rankin. mr. helms---- mr. dulles. could i ask one question there? do you recall or do you know at what time the name of lee harvey oswald was carded, first came to your attention so it became a matter of record, in the agency? mr. helms. sir, i would want to consult the record to be absolutely accurate, but it is my impression that the first time that his name showed up on any agency records was when he went to the soviet union. mr. rankin. mr. helms, in connection with your work you have supplied information to the commission and we have requested many things from your agency. can you tell the commission as to whether or not you have supplied us all the information the agency has, at least in substance, in regard to lee harvey oswald? mr. helms. we have; all. representative ford. has a member of the commission staff had full access to your files on lee harvey oswald? mr. helms. he has, sir. representative ford. they have had the opportunity to personally look at the entire file? mr. helms. we invited them to come out to our building in langley and actually put the file on the table so that they could examine it. the chairman. i was personally out there, too, and was offered the same opportunity. i did not avail myself of it because of the time element, but i was offered the same opportunity. mr. rankin. mr. helms, can you explain, according to the limitations of security, the reasons why we examined materials but did not always take them, in a general way? mr. helms. yes; i can. in our communications between individuals working overseas and in washington, we for security reasons have a method of hiding the identities of individuals in telegrams and dispatches by the use of pseudonyms and cryptonyms. for this reason, we never allow the original documents to leave our premises. however, on the occasion when the representatives of the commission staff looked at these files, we sat there and identified these pseudonyms and cryptonyms and related them to the proper names of the individuals concerned, so that they would know exactly what the correspondence said. mr. rankin. by that you mean the representatives of the commission were able to satisfy themselves that they had all of the information for the benefit of the commission without disclosing matters that would be a threat to security; is that right? mr. helms. it is my understanding that they were satisfied. representative ford. mr. mccone, do you have full authority from higher authority to make full disclosure to this commission of any information in the files of the central intelligence agency? mr. mccone. that is right. it is my understanding that it is the desire of higher authority that this commission shall have access to all information of every nature in our files or in the minds of employees of central intelligence agency. representative ford. on the basis of that authority, you or the agency have made a full disclosure? mr. mccone. that is correct. mr. rankin. mr. helms, i have handed you exhibits and directed to you acting for the agency, the first one being from the commission to you and the second one, , being your answer in regard to your full and complete disclosure in regard to your records; isn't that correct? mr. helms. that is correct. may i say, mr. rankin, that any information, though, subsequent to this correspondence which we may obtain we will certainly continue to forward to the commission. mr. rankin. thank you. mr. chief justice, i ask leave to have those two exhibits, and , received in evidence at this time. the chairman. they may be admitted under those numbers. (commission exhibits nos. and were marked for identification and received in evidence.) mr. rankin. mr. mccone, if i may return to you, i will now ask you if you have any credible information that you know of or evidence causing you to believe that there is any or was any conspiracy either domestic or foreign in connection with the assassination of president kennedy? mr. mccone. no; i have no information, mr. rankin, that would lead me to believe or conclude that a conspiracy existed. representative ford. did the cia make an investigation of this aspect of the assassination? mr. mccone. we made an investigation of all developments after the assassination which came to our attention which might possibly have indicated a conspiracy, and we determined after these investigations, which were made promptly and immediately, that we had no evidence to support such an assumption. representative ford. did the central intelligence agency have any contact with oswald during the period of his life in the soviet union? mr. mccone. no; not to my knowledge, nor to the knowledge of those who would have been in a position to have made such contact, nor according to any record we have. representative ford. did the central intelligence agency have any personal contact with oswald subsequent to his return to the united states? mr. mccone. no. mr. rankin. mr. mccone, your agency made a particular investigation in connection with any allegations about a conspiracy involving the soviet union or people connected with cuba, did you not? mr. mccone. yes, we did. we made a thorough, a very thorough, investigation of information that came to us concerning an alleged trip that oswald made to mexico city during which time he made contact with the cuban embassy in mexico city in an attempt to gain transit privileges from mexico city to the soviet union via havana. we investigated that thoroughly. mr. rankin. do you also include in your statement that you found no evidence of conspiracy in all of that investigation? mr. mccone. that is correct. mr. rankin. and also the investigation you made of the period that lee harvey oswald was in the soviet union? mr. mccone. that is right. mr. rankin. mr. mccone---- mr. dulles. could i ask one question there? does your answer, mr. mccone, include a negation of any belief that oswald was working for or on behalf of the soviet union at any time when you were in contact with him or knew about his activities? mr. mccone. as i have already stated, we were never in contact with oswald. we have no evidence that he was working for or on behalf of the soviet union at any time. according to his diary, oswald did receive a subsidy from the soviet red cross which we assume had the approval of the authorities. such a payment does not indicate to us that he even worked for the soviet intelligence services. furthermore, we have no other evidence that he ever worked for soviet intelligence. representative ford. is the central intelligence agency continuing any investigation into this area? mr. mccone. no, because, at the present time, we have no information in our files that we have not exhaustively investigated and disposed of to our satisfaction. naturally, any new information that might come into our hands would be investigated promptly. mr. helms. i simply wanted to add that we obviously are interested in anything we can pick up applying to this case, and anything we get will be immediately sent to the commission, so that we haven't stopped our inquiries or the picking up of any information we can from people who might have it. this is on a continuing basis. representative ford. in other words, the case isn't closed. mr. helms. it is not closed as far as we are concerned. mr. rankin. would that be true, mr. helms, even after the commission completed its report, you would keep the matter open if there was anything new that developed in the future that could be properly presented to the authorities? mr. helms. yes. i would assume the case will never be closed. mr. rankin. mr. mccone, do you have any ideas about improving the security provisions for the president that you would like to relate to the commission? mr. mccone. well, this is, in my opinion, a very important question which i am sure this commission will--has and will--devote a considerable amount of thought to, and undoubtedly have some recommendations as part of its report. mr. rankin. your agency does have an important function in some aspects. mr. mccone. we have a very important function in connection with the foreign travels of the president, and i would like to inform the commission as to how we discharge that responsibility by quickly reviewing the chronology of the central intelligence agency's support of president kennedy's visit to mexico city from the th of june to the d of july . mr. rankin. will you please do that. the chairman. director, is that a security matter? mr. mccone. no. i think i can handle this for the record. the chairman. very well. mr. mccone. if i have to make a remark or two off the record i will ask that privilege. that visit, as i said, started on the th of june. on the th of april, in anticipation of the visit, instructions were transmitted to mexico for the ambassador to coordinate planning and informational guidance for the advance party of the secret service. we asked that the secret service be given information on local groups and persons who would cause disturbances, embarrassments or physical harm, an estimate of the determination and ability of the mexican government to prevent incidents, and preparation for special briefings to the embassy officials and the secret service, and such additional support and communications personnel that might be required. these instructions were given two months before the trip. on the th of may, we received confirmed information that the president would visit mexico on the specific dates. on the st of june the secret service was supplied by the agency with the detailed survey of mexican security forces that would be called upon to protect the president. friendly and allied governments were informed of the visit and their cooperation and pertinent informational support was solicited. from this date through the d of july daily information reports were furnished to the state department, the secret service, the fbi and the military services. that is from the st of june to the d of july, a period of , days. on the th of june the secret service advance party was briefed in detail by a group of officers of the agency on the mexican government's plans for the protection of the president, including current information on the size, strength and capabilities of potential troublemakers. hazardous locations and times in the planned itinerary were identified, political and economic issues that might be invoked by hostile elements for demonstrations were specified. on the th of june, the secret service advance party left for mexico supported by additional security personnel to assist in coordinating an informational report and the followup activity required. especially prepared national intelligence estimates on the current security conditions in mexico was approved by the united states intelligence board on the th of june. on the th of june arrangements were completed to reenforce communications facilities. on the th of june a conference at the state department was held at the request of the president for reviewing security measures, and this meeting i attended personally, and reported to the state department on the essence of all that had gone before. emergency contingency plans were discussed and a consensus was reached that the president should make the visit as scheduled. on the th of june, a final updated special national intelligence estimate was prepared, and this indicated no basic changes in the security assessment that mexican government was prepared to cope with foreseeable security contingencies. on the th of june, a final briefing report was prepared for the director's use which indicated the security precautions of the mexican government had effectively forestalled major organized incidents, and our informed estimate was that the president would receive a great welcome. the report was presented to the president personally by the director at noon in a final meeting prior to departure on this trip. from the th of june to the d of july in washington headquarters, headquarters components remained on a -hour alert for close support of the embassy and the secret service. so, not only was the central intelligence agency and its various components involved in this for a period of months in close collaboration with the secret service, but by bringing in the united states intelligence board we brought in all of the intelligence assets of the united states government in connection with this particular trip. i thought this procedure which is followed regularly on all trips that the president makes out of the country would be of interest to the commission. the chairman. that is the normal format of your procedures? mr. mccone. yes. the chairman. when the president goes abroad? mr. mccone. yes, i selected this one. the same was true of his trip to caracas or paris or elsewhere. mr. rankin. mr. mccone, in your investigation of the oswald matter did you use the same approach or a comparable approach to a liaison with the other intelligence agencies of government to try to discover anything that might involve your jurisdiction. mr. mccone. yes. we were in very close touch with the federal bureau of investigation and with the secret service on a -hour basis at all points, both domestic and foreign, where information had been received which might have a bearing on this problem. mr. rankin. assassination? mr. mccone. assassination. mr. rankin. do you have an opinion, mr. mccone, as to whether or not the liaison between the intelligence agencies of the united states government might be improved if they had better mechanical, computer or other facilities of that type, and also some other ideas or methods of dealing with each other? mr. mccone. there is a great deal of improvement of information that might be of importance in a matter of this kind through the use of computers and mechanical means of handling files, and you, mr. chief justice, saw some of our installations and that was only a beginning of what really can be done. the chairman. yes; i did. mr. mccone. i would certainly urge that all departments of government that are involved in this area adopt the most modern methods of automatic data processing with respect to the personnel files and other files relating to individuals. this would be helpful. but i emphasize that a computer will not replace the man, and therefore, we must have at all levels a complete exchange of information and cooperation between agencies where they share this responsibility, and in going through this chronology, it points out the type of exchange and cooperation that the central intelligence agency tries to afford both the secret service and the federal bureau of investigation in matters where we have a common responsibility. i would like to emphasize the very great importance of this exchange, which is not always easily accomplished because it is cumbersome. sometimes it becomes involved in distracting people from other duties, and so on and so forth. i have given a good deal of thought to the matter of some incentives to bring out informers, thinking about the old informer statutes in which some of them are still on the books, in which people were rewarded for informing when others conducted themselves in a damaging way. mr. dulles. smuggling cases? mr. mccone. smuggling cases. but i believe that something could be done. i call to the attention of this commission one of the laws relating to atomic energy, namely the atomic weapons reward act of july wherein a substantial reward is offered for the apprehension of persons responsible for the clandestine introduction or manufacture in the united states of such nuclear material or atomic weapons. it is suggested that the commission may wish to recommend that original but similar legislation be enacted which would induce individuals to furnish information bearing on presidential security by offering a substantial reward and preferential treatment. substantial reward could represent a significant inducement even to staff officers and personnel of secret associations and state security organs abroad who are charged with assassination and sabotage. we have information that such personnel and police state apparatuses have expressed and, in certain cases, acted upon their repugnance for such work and for the political system which requires such duties to be performed. mr rankin. is it your belief, mr. mccone, that the methods for exchange of information between intelligence agencies of the government could be materially improved. mr. mccone. i think the exchange between the central intelligence agency and the federal bureau of investigation or the secret service is quite adequate. i am not informed as to whether the exchanges between the secret service and the fbi are equally adequate. i have not gone into that. i would have no means to know. certainly it is most important that it be done. mr. dulles. looking back now that you have the full record, do you feel that you received from the state department adequate information at the time that they were aware of oswald's defection and later activities in the soviet union, did you get at the time full information from the state department on those particular subjects? mr. mccone. well, i am not sure that we got full information, mr. dulles. the fact is we had very little information in our files. mr. helms. it was probably minimal. representative ford. why did that happen? mr. helms. i am not sure, mr. ford. i can only assume that the state department had a limited amount. interestingly enough, it is far enough back now so that it's very hard to find people who were in the moscow embassy at the time familiar with the case, so in trying to run this down one comes to a lot of dead ends and i, therefore, would not like to hazard any guess. representative ford. whose responsibility is it; is it cia's responsibility to obtain the information or state department's responsibility to supply it to central intelligence and to others. mr. mccone. with respect to a u.s. citizen who goes abroad, it is the responsibility of the state department through its various echelons, consular service and embassies and so forth. for a foreigner coming into the united states, who might be of suspicious character, coming here for espionage, subversion, assassination and other acts of violence, we would, and we do exchange this information immediately with the fbi. representative ford. but in this particular case, oswald in the soviet union, whose responsibility was it to transmit the information, whatever it was, to the central intelligence agency? mr. mccone. well, it would be the state department's responsibility to do that. whether there really exists an order or orders that information on an american citizen returning from a foreign country be transmitted to cia, i don't believe there are such regulations which exist. mr. helms. i don't believe they do, either. mr. mccone. i am not sure they should. representative ford. it wouldn't be your recommendation that you, the head of central intelligence agency, should have that information? mr. dulles. in a case of an american defecting to a communist country, shouldn't you have it? mr. mccone. certainly certain types of information. what we ought to be careful of here, would be to rather clearly define the type of information which should be transmitted, because after all, there are hundreds of thousands or millions of americans going back and forth every year, and those records are the records of the immigration service, the passport division. mr. dulles. i was thinking of a person who having defected might, of course, have become an agent and then reinserted into the united states and if you were informed of the first steps to that you might help to prevent the second step. mr. mccone. well, certainly information on defectors or possible recruitments should be, and i have no question is being, transmitted. representative ford. what i was getting at was whether the procedures were adequate or inadequate, whether the administration was proper or improper in this particular case, and if some files you have that started when he attempted to defect are inadequate why we ought to know, and we ought to know whether the basic regulations were right or wrong, whether the administration was proper or improper, that is what i am trying to find out. i would like your comment on it. mr. mccone. well, i think the basic regulations should be examined very carefully to be sure that they are copper-riveted down and absolutely tight. what i am saying, however, is because of the vast number of americans who go abroad and stay in foreign countries for indefinite periods of time, it would be an impossible task to transmit all information available in the state department and immigration service as files to the central intelligence agency. it would not be a productive exercise. what must be transmitted and is being transmitted, while i cannot recite the exact regulations is information that is, becomes, known to the various embassies of suspicious americans that might have been recruited and defected, and then returned so that they would be agents in place. representative ford. in this case, oswald attempted to defect, he did not, he subsequently sought the right to return to the united states, he had contact with the embassy. was the central intelligence agency informed of these steps, step by step, by the department of state? mr. mccone. you might answer that. mr. helms. mr. ford, in order to answer this question precisely i would have to have the file in front of me. i have not looked at it in some time so i don't have it all that clearly in mind. but it is my impression that we were not informed step by step. when i say that there is no requirement that i am aware of that the state department should inform us and when i said a moment ago that we had minimal information from them, this was not in any sense a critical comment but a statement of fact. but an american going to the american embassy would be handled by the embassy officials, either consular or otherwise. this would be a matter well within the purview of the state department to keep all the way through, because we do not have responsibility in the central intelligence agency for the conduct or behavior or anything else of american citizens when they are abroad unless there is some special consideration applying to an individual, or someone in higher authority requests assistance from us. so that the state department, i think, quite properly would regard this matter as well within their purview to handle themselves within the embassy or from the embassy back to the department of state without involving the agency in it while these events were occurring. representative ford. i think it could be argued, however, that the uniqueness of this individual case was such that the department of state might well have contacted the central intelligence agency to keep them abreast of the developments as they transpired. this is not--and when i say this, i mean the oswald case--is not an ordinary run-of-the-mill-type of case. it is far from it. even back in the time, well, from the time he went, and particularly as time progressed, and he made application to return, there is nothing ordinary about the whole situation. mr. mccone. that is quite correct; there is no question about that. representative ford. and i am only suggesting that if the regulations were not adequate at the time and are not now, maybe something ought to be done about it. mr. rankin. mr. mccone, when you said that supplying all of the information about u.s. citizens who went abroad and came back to the country would not be a profitable exercise, did that comment include the thought that such an intrusion upon all citizens would be questionable? mr. mccone. such an intrusion? mr. rankin. upon their right to travel. mr. mccone. well, i think this would have a bearing on it. i did not have that particular matter in mind when i made that statement, however. i was just thinking of the---- mr. rankin. burden? mr. mccone. of the burden of vast numbers involved. mr. rankin. do you you have any thought in regard to whether it would be an intrusion upon their rights? mr. mccone. well, that would be a matter of how it was handled. certainly, if it was handled in a way that the counterpart of providing the information was to impose restrictions on them, then it would be an intrusion on their rights. mr. rankin. yes. senator cooper. may i inquire? the chairman. senator cooper. senator cooper. i missed the first part of mr. mccone's testimony; i went to answer a quorum call. perhaps the question has been asked. it has been brought into evidence that a number of people in the embassy talked to oswald when he first defected, and the various communications with the embassy and, of course, when he left to come back to the united states. have we been able to ascertain the names of officials in the embassy or employees with whom oswald talked on these various occasions? mr. mccone. i am not familiar with them; no. mr. helms. neither am i, sir. mr. mccone. i presume that the department's inquiries have covered it. senator cooper. is it possible to ascertain the names of those employees? mr. rankin. senator cooper, i can answer that. we have inquired of the state department for that information, and are in the process of obtaining it all. senator cooper. taking into consideration your answers to the previous question, would it have been possible in your judgment to have secured more comprehensive information about the activities of oswald in russia? mr. mccone. it would not have been possible for the central intelligence agency to have secured such information because we do not have the resources to gain such information. the chairman. anything more? congressman ford? representative ford. did the central intelligence agency investigate any aspects of oswald's trip to mexico? mr. mccone. yes; we did. representative ford. can you give us any information on that? mr. mccone. yes; we were aware that oswald did make a trip to mexico city and it was our judgment that he was there in the interest of insuring transit privileges and that he made contact with the cuban embassy while he was there. we do not know the precise results of his effort, but we assumed, because he returned to the united states, he was unsuccessful. we have examined to every extent we can, and using all resources available to us every aspect of his activity and we could not verify that he was there for any other purpose or that his trip to mexico was in any way related to his later action in assassinating president kennedy. representative ford. did the central intelligence agency make any investigation of any alleged connection between oswald and the castro government? mr. mccone. yes; we investigated that in considerable detail, because information came to us through a third party that he had carried on a rather odd discussion with cuban officials in the cuban embassy in mexico city. the allegation was that he had received under rather odd circumstances a substantial amount of money in the cuban embassy, and the statement was made by one who claimed to have seen this transaction take place. after a very thorough and detailed examination of the informer, it finally turned out by the informer's own admission that the information was entirely erroneous, and was made for the purpose of advancing the informer's own standing with the central intelligence agency and the u.s. government and it was subsequently retracted by the informer in its entirety. representative ford. was there any other evidence or alleged evidence---- mr. mccone. parenthetically, i might add a word for the record that the date that the informer gave as to the date in time of this alleged transaction was impossible because through other, from other, information we determined that oswald was in the united states at that particular time. representative ford. did the central intelligence agency ever make an investigation or did it ever check on mr. ruby's trip to cuba or any connections he might have had with the castro government? mr. mccone. not to my knowledge. mr. helms. we had no information. mr. mccone. we had no information. representative ford. central intelligence agency has no information of any connections of ruby to the castro government? mr. mccone. that is right. representative ford. did you ever make a check of that? mr. helms. we checked our records to see if we had information and found we did not. representative ford. what would that indicate, the fact that you checked your records? mr. helms. that would indicate that if we had received information from our own resources, that the cubans were involved with mr. ruby in something which would be regarded as subversive, we would then have it in our files. but we received no such information, and i don't, by saying this, mean that he did not. i simply say we don't have any record of this. representative ford. that is all. the chairman. director, thank you very much, sir, for coming and being with us and we appreciate the help your department has given to us. (whereupon, at : p.m., the president's commission recessed.) _thursday, june , _ testimony of thomas j. kelley, leo j. gauthier, lyndal l. shaneyfelt, and robert a. frazier the president's commission met at : p.m., on june , , at maryland avenue ne., washington, d.c. present were chief justice earl warren. chairman; senator john sherman cooper, representative gerald r. ford, allen w. dulles, and john j. mccloy, members. also present were j. lee rankin, general counsel; norman redlich, assistant counsel; arlen specter, assistant counsel; waggoner carr, attorney general of texas; and charles murray, observer. testimony of thomas j. kelley (members present at this point: the chairman, representative ford, mr. dulles, and mr. mccloy.) mr. specter. mr. chief justice, we have witnesses today who are thomas j. kelley of the secret service; leo j. gauthier, lyndal l. shaneyfelt, and robert a. frazier of the fbi. they are going to testify concerning certain onsite tests made in dallas at the scene of the assassination, and of preliminary studies which were made prior to the onsite tests at dallas. may we have them sworn in as a group? the chairman. yes. will you rise and raise your right hands, please? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before this commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. kelley. i do. mr. gauthier. i do. mr. shaneyfelt. i do. mr. frazier. i do. the chairman. you may be seated, gentlemen. mr. kelley, will you take the witness chair, please? mr. specter will conduct the examination. mr. specter. will you state your full name for the record, please? mr. kelley. thomas j. kelley. mr. specter. by whom are you employed? mr. kelley. i am employed by the u.s. secret service. mr. specter. in what capacity? mr. kelley. i am an inspector. mr. specter. in a general way, of what do your duties consist, mr. kelley? mr. kelley. as an inspector, i am part of the chief's headquarters staff. i conduct office inspections of our field and protective installations, and report on their actions to the chief. mr. specter. how long have you been with the secret service? mr. kelley. twenty-two years. mr. specter. did you participate in the planning of the onsite tests at dallas, tex.? mr. kelley. i did. mr. specter. and did you participate in the making of those tests? mr. kelley. yes, sir. mr. specter. on what date was the onsite testing made? mr. kelley. it was a week ago sunday. mr. specter. that would be may , ? mr. kelley. yes, sir. mr. specter. what car was used for testing purposes? mr. kelley. the car that was used was a specially built cadillac, open, a convertible, seven-passenger cadillac. it has a termination of -x, the secret service calls it. it is a car that is used as a followup car to the president's car when he is in a motorcade. mr. specter. was that car actually in the motorcade on november , , in dallas? mr. kelley. yes; it was. mr. specter. was there any special reason why the car in which the president rode on november was not used? mr. kelley. yes; the car in which the president rode has been modified by a body builder in cincinnati, the hess & eisenhardt co. of cincinnati. mr. specter. and do you have a diagram showing the dimensions of the secret service followup car which was used during the onsite tests? mr. kelley. i have. it was felt that the best simulation of the test could be presented by having a car that was similar to the car in which the president was riding, which was also an open lincoln convertible. mr. specter. may it please the commission, i would like to mark the diagram of the followup car as commission exhibit no. and move its admission into evidence. the chairman. it may be admitted. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification, and received in evidence.) mr. specter. do you have diagrams showing the dimensions of the presidential car? mr. kelley. i have. mr. specter. i would like to have that marked as commission exhibit no. and move for its admission into evidence. the chairman. it may be admitted. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification, and received in evidence.) mr. specter. without specifying all of the details, inspector kelley, are the followup car and the presidential car generally similar in dimensions? mr. kelley. yes; they are. there are very few, of course, seven-passenger convertible cars in existence, and these are specially--these cars are specially built for us by the lincoln--the ford motor co. and the followup car by the general motors co. mr. specter. would you describe what seating arrangements are present in each of those cars in between the permanent front seat and the permanent rear seat? mr. kelley. there are two jump seats that can be opened up for riders in each of the cars. in the presidential followup car, these jump seats are usually occupied by secret service agents. in the president's car, they are occupied by the president's guests. on the day of the assassination, of course, the jump seats were occupied by mrs. connally and governor connally. mr. specter. mr. kelley, have you brought with you two photographs depicting the interior of the president's car? mr. kelley. i have. these are photographs of the interior of the president's car which is known to us as -x. mr. specter. may it please the commission, i would like to mark one of these photographs as commission exhibit no. , and move its admission into evidence. the chairman. it may be admitted. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification, and received in evidence.) mr. specter. i would like to mark the second photograph as commission exhibit no. and move, also, its admission into evidence. the chairman. it may be admitted. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification, and received in evidence.) mr. specter. would you describe briefly what exhibit no. depicts, please? mr. kelley. exhibit no. is a photograph of the interior of the rear section of the -x, the president's car, showing the seating arrangement in the car and the jump seats are in an open position. mr. mccloy. as of what time were these photographs taken? mr. kelley. i am sorry, commissioner. i don't know just when those photographs were taken. they were taken some time in the last years. mr. specter. as to exhibits nos. and , do they accurately depict the condition of the president's car as of november , ? mr. kelley. they do, sir. mr. specter. would you describe briefly what exhibit no. shows? mr. kelley. exhibit no. is another photograph of the car taken from the rear, and it shows the relative positions of the jump seats in an open position as they relate to the back seat of the car. mr. specter. so that the record may be clear, which commission number has been given to the diagram of the president's car? mr. kelley. the president's car is exhibit no. . mr. specter. and the followup car diagram is what? mr. kelley. exhibit no. . mr. mccloy. do you know whether these photographs were taken before or after the assassination? mr. kelley. before the assassination. mr. dulles. did the car that you used for this test--did that car have the seat lifting capacity that i understand the president's car had? mr. kelley. no; it did not, sir. i might say that there is in the commission's records photographs of the president's car after the assassination, showing the condition of it after the assassination, at the garage. mr. specter. on the president's car itself, what is the distance on the right edge of the right jump seat, that is to say from the right edge of the right jump seat to the door on the right side? mr. kelley. there is inches of clearance between the jump seat and the door. mr. specter. and what is the relative position of the jump seat to the rear seat on the presidential automobile? mr. kelley. there is - / inches between the back of the jump seat and the front of the back seat of the president's car, the rear seat. mr. specter. and what is the relative height of the jump seat and the rear seat? mr. kelley. the jump seat is inches lower than the back seat in its bottom position. that is, the back seat of the president's car had a mechanism which would raise it - / inches. but at the time of the assassination, the seat was in its lowest position. mr. specter. and what is the differential between the jump seats and the rear seat on the secret service followup car? mr. kelley. the jump seat of the secret service car is a little closer to the right door. however, the seating arrangement is not exactly the same in these cars, in that there is a portion of a padding that comes around on the rear seat. but relatively, when two persons are seated in this car, one in the rear seat and one in the jump seat, they are in the same alinement as they were in the president's car. mr. dulles. could i ask one question in response to your statement that the back seat was in its lowest position at the time of the assassination? how do you know that? mr. kelley. that is a result of questioning of the people who took the car, the driver who took the car from the hospital to the plane. this was one of the drivers of the presidential car. there was nobody who touched the car until it got back to the white house garage. it was in his custody all the time. and he did not move it. when it was in the white house garage, it was at its lowest point. mr. dulles. and there would be no opportunity to lower it from the time the president was shot? mr. kelley. no, sir. the president, of course, operates that thing himself. but when it was examined, at the time it was examined, and it was in the custody of this man all the time, it had not been touched. mr. specter. what was the height of president kennedy? mr. kelley. he was - / inches. mr. specter. and were you present when a man was placed in the same position in the secret service followup car as that in which president kennedy sat in the presidential car when the tests were simulated on may th of this year? mr. kelley. i was. mr. specter. do you know the name of that individual? mr. kelley. he was an fbi agent by the name of james w. anderton. mr. specter. and what was the height of mr. anderton? mr. kelley. he was - / inches. mr. specter. do you know the height of governor connally? mr. kelley. governor connally was foot . mr. specter. was that the height of the governor himself or the governor's stand-in? mr. kelley. it was my understanding that governor connally was-- foot , i guess. the governor's stand-in, mr. doyle williams, was foot . mr. specter. were you present when those two individuals were seated in the secret service followup car? mr. kelley. yes, sir. mr. specter. and what adjustment was made, if any, so that the relative positions of those two men were the same as the positioning of president kennedy and governor connally on november , ? mr. kelley. the officials at hess eisenhardt, who have the original plans of the president's car, conducted a test to ascertain how high from the ground a person - / inches would be seated in this car before its modification. and it was ascertained that the person would be . inches from the ground--that is, taking into consideration the flexion of the tires, the flexion of the cushions that were on the car at the time. mr. specter. when you say . inches, which individual would that be? mr. kelley. that would be the president. mr. specter. and what part of his body? mr. kelley. the top of the head would be . inches from the ground. when mr. anderton was placed in the followup car, it was found that the top of his head was inches from the ground. there was an adjustment made so that there would be--the stand-in for governor connally would be in relatively the same position, taking into consideration the -inch difference in the jump seat and the -inch difference in his height. mr. specter. considering the -inch difference in the jump seat--and i believe it would be an inch and a half difference in height between president kennedy and governor connally--how much higher, then, approximately, was president kennedy sitting than the governor on november ? mr. kelley. i am not---- mr. specter. would the president have been about an inch and half higher than the governor on the day of the assassination? mr. kelley. the day of the assassination, yes. mr. specter. and were---- the chairman. wouldn't the height of these men depend upon the length of their torso? mr. kelley. well,---- the chairman. you have some people who are shortwaisted, some people who are longwaisted. i don't know which either of these men were who were of the same height. but i know there is a lot of difference in men. we sometimes see the--a man who looks large sitting down, when he stands up he is small, because he has a long torso, and vice versa. mr. kelley. of course the relative positions are apparent from the films that were taken at the time of the assassination. it would be, of course, that judgment--and it would have to be a judgment. but i think the films indicate there was just about that much difference in their height when both were seated. mr. specter. inspector kelley, i hand you a photograph marked as commission exhibit no. , which has heretofore been admitted into evidence, and identified by governor connally as depicting the president and the governor as they rode in the motorcade on the day of the assassination, and i ask you if the stand-ins for the president and the governor were seated in approximately the same relative positions on the reconstruction on may . mr. kelley. yes, sir; in my judgment that is very close. mr. specter. what marking, if any, was placed on the back of president kennedy--the stand-in for president kennedy? mr. kelley. there was a chalk mark placed on his coat, in this area here. mr. specter. and what did that chalk mark represent? mr. kelley. that represented the entry point of the shot which wounded the president. mr. specter. and how was the location for that mark fixed or determined? mr. kelley. that was fixed from the photographs of a medical drawing that was made by the physicians and the people at parkland and an examination of the coat which the president was wearing at the time. mr. specter. as to the drawing, was that not the drawing made by the autopsy surgeons from bethesda naval hospital? mr. kelley. bethesda naval. mr. mccloy. not parkland, as i understand it? mr. specter. no, sir; not parkland, because as the record will show, the president was not turned over at parkland. mr. kelley. i was shown a drawing of--that was prepared by some medical technicians indicating the point of entry. mr. specter. permit me to show you commission exhibit no. , which has heretofore been marked and introduced into evidence, and i ask you if that is the drawing that you were shown as the basis for the marking of the wound on the back of the president's neck. mr. kelley. yes. mr. specter. and the record will show, may it please the commission, that this was made by the autopsy surgeons at bethesda. and was there any marking placed on the back of governor connally? mr. kelley. yes; there was a marking placed on the back of his coat in the area where the medical testimony had indicated the bullet had entered governor connally. mr. specter. and what coat was worn by the stand-in for governor connally? mr. kelley. it was the coat that governor connally was wearing at the time he was injured. mr. specter. and was the chalk circle placed around the hole which appeared on the back of that coat garment? mr. kelley. it was. mr. specter. were certain tests made by the secret service shortly after the day of the assassination? mr. kelley. yes. mr. specter. and were those tests reduced to photographs which were compiled in an album? mr. kelley. yes; in commission document no. , we took some photographs of the scene of the assassination on december , , from the window of the texas book depository, and from the street. mr. specter. the number which you refer to bears commission no. , which is an index number which was given for internal commission document filing, but it has not been marked as a commission exhibit. i would now like to mark it commission exhibit no. and move for its admission into evidence. the chairman. it may be admitted. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification, and received in evidence.) mr. specter. does a photograph in that group show the condition of the foliage of the trees in the vicinity where the assassination occurred? mr. kelley. yes. mr. specter. and is there---- mr. dulles. one question. this photograph was taken, though, several weeks later, wasn't it? mr. kelley. on december . mr. dulles. that was weeks later. mr. kelley. two weeks later; yes, sir. mr. dulles. so the foliage would presumably be somewhat less in that picture, would it not, than it was on november ? mr. kelley. no; actually, the foliage hadn't changed very much even in the latest tests we are making. the chairman. it was an evergreen? mr. kelley. it was an oak tree, mr. chief justice, i have been told the foliage doesn't change much during the year. they call it pine oak. some people call it a life oak. but the people down there i talked to said it was called a pine oak. mr. specter. and did you observe the foliage on the tree on may ? mr. kelley. i did, sir. mr. specter. and would you state the relative condition of that foliage, as contrasted with the photographs you have before you taken on december ? mr. kelley. it was very similar, practically the same. mr. specter. and the description which you have just given applies to a large oak tree which intervened between a point on the sixth floor of the texas school book depository building and any automobile which would have been driven down the center lane of elm street in a westerly direction? mr. kelley. yes, sir. mr. specter. mr. chief justice, the purpose of having inspector kelley testify was just to set the scene. that completes our questioning of him. the chairman. very well. thank you, inspector kelley. mr. specter. the next witness will be inspector gauthier. testimony of leo j. gauthier mr. specter. would you state your full name for the record, please? mr. gauthier. leo j. gauthier. mr. specter. and by whom are you employed, sir? mr. gauthier. the federal bureau of investigation. mr. specter. and what is your rank with the federal bureau of investigation? mr. gauthier. inspector. i am in charge of the bureau's exhibit section, where we prepare investigative aids, consisting of diagrams, charts, maps, three-dimensional exhibits, in connection with the presentation of cases in court. mr. specter. how long have you been employed by the federal bureau of investigation? mr. gauthier. twenty-nine years. mr. specter. did you have occasion to reconstruct certain models to scale in connection with the investigation on the assassination of president kennedy? mr. gauthier. yes; i did. mr. specter. and what model reproduction, if any, did you make of the scene of the assassination itself? mr. gauthier. the data, concerning the scene of the assassination, was developed by the bureau's exhibits section, including myself, at the site on december , , and , of . from this data we built a three-dimensional exhibit, one-quarter of an inch to the foot. it contained the pertinent details of the site, including street lights, catch basin, concrete structures in the area, including buildings, grades, scale models of the cars that comprised the motorcade, consisting of the police lead car, the presidential car, the followup car, the lincoln open car that the vice president was riding in, and the followup car behind the vice-presidential car. mr. specter. on the model of the scene itself, mr. gauthier, did you reproduce a portion of the scene which is depicted in commission exhibit no. ? mr. gauthier. yes; i did. mr. specter. handing you that commission exhibit no. , i will ask you to describe what it represents in toto. mr. gauthier. this is an aerial view of the site known as dealey plaza, in dallas, tex. it indicates the large buildings that surround this area. they are numbered through . it indicates the main streets--commerce, main, and elm streets, and the roadways through the plaza, including the triple underpass. mr. specter. i now hand you a document which has been marked as commission exhibit no. and ask you if that document was obtained by you in connection with the survey for the model which you prepared. mr. gauthier. yes; this is a description of dealey plaza stating the historical background and the physical description. mr. specter. i move at this time for the admission into evidence of commission exhibits nos. and . the chairman. they may be admitted. (the documents referred to were marked commission exhibits nos. and for identification, and received in evidence.) mr. specter. inspector, i now hand you two photographs marked as commission exhibits nos. and and ask you to state what those depict. (the documents referred to were marked commission exhibits nos. and for identification.) mr. gauthier. commission exhibit no. is a view of the scale model looking toward the northeast with the texas school book depository building in the background, together with the daltex building, and a portion of the dallas county courthouse. it includes the pergola to the left, and the pericycle structure on the right with the reflecting pool in the immediate background. it also shows the roadway through the plaza, which is an extension of elm street, upon which appears miniature scale models of the vehicles in the motorcade. mr. dulles. what motorcade is this? mr. gauthier. we are depicting the presidential motorcade at the time of the assassination, the motorcade that passed that area. mr. dulles. and this was done on what day? mr. gauthier. our data to build this were compiled on december , , and . it took about weeks to prepare this exhibit in washington. mr. specter. would you now describe what is shown on the photograph? mr. gauthier. commission exhibit no. is a view of the scale model looking toward the southwest, in the direction of the triple underpass, from a position on the sixth floor in the southeast corner window. mr. specter. i now hand you two additional photographs marked as commission exhibits nos. and , and ask you to state what they represent. (the documents referred to were marked commission exhibits nos. and for identification.) mr. gauthier. commission exhibit no. is a scale dimension view of the sixth floor looking toward the southeast corner of the texas school book depository building. mr. specter. and in the corner of that photograph is the area depicted which has been described as the possible site of the rifleman? mr. gauthier. that is correct. mr. specter. will you now describe what exhibit no. shows? mr. gauthier. commission exhibit no. is a three-dimensional view of leading down from main street and commerce street. positioned on the ramps are scale models of an armored van and two police squad cars. there are also miniature mockups of individuals--representing position of people in this area of the basement garage. mr. specter. and what event is depicted in that model, if any? mr. gauthier. this represents the arrangement, physical arrangement, in the basement at the time lee harvey oswald walked out from the elevator through the jail office onto the basement ramp. mr. specter. and where have these models been maintained since the time they were prepared by the fbi? mr. gauthier. the models were delivered to the commission's building and installed in the exhibits room on the first floor, on january , . mr. specter. mr. chief justice, i now move for the admission into evidence of the photographs , , , and . the chairman. they may be admitted. (the documents heretofore marked for identification as commission exhibits nos. , , , and , were received in evidence.) mr. specter. did you participate in the onsite tests made in dallas? mr. gauthier. i did. mr. specter. was a survey made of the scene used to record some of the results of that onsite testing? mr. gauthier. yes. mr. specter. and by whom was the survey made? mr. gauthier. the survey was made on may , , by robert h. west, county surveyor, a licensed state land surveyor, located at county courthouse, dallas, tex. mr. specter. have you brought the tracing of that survey with you today? mr. gauthier. i have; yes. mr. specter. and have you brought a cardboard reproduction of that? mr. gauthier. a copy made from the tracing; yes. mr. specter. would you produce the cardboard copy made from the tracing for the inspection of the commission at this time, please? mr. gauthier. yes. mr. specter. would you produce the tracing at this time, please? mr. gauthier. yes; the tracing is wrapped, and sealed in this container. mr. specter. without breaking the seal, i will ask you if the cardboard which has been set up here--may the record show it is a large cardboard. i will ask you for the dimensions in just a minute. does the printing on the cardboard represent an exact duplication of the tracing which you have in your hand? mr. gauthier. yes. mr. specter. may it please the commission, we will mark the tracing commission exhibit no. , and not take it out, since the cardboard represents it, and place commission exhibit no. on the cardboard drawing itself, and i would like to move for the admission into evidence of both exhibits nos. and . the chairman. they may be admitted. (the documents referred to were marked commission exhibits nos. and for identification, and received in evidence.) mr. specter. will you now describe what exhibit no. is, inspector gauthier, indicating, first of all, the approximate size of the cardboard? mr. gauthier. this is a copy of the tracing measuring inches in width, inches in length. it is made to a scale of inch equals feet. from the data compiled on that day by the surveyor, this tracing was prepared. the area is bounded on the north by the texas school book depository building, and on further here by railroad property. mr. specter. indicating a general westerly direction from the school book depository building? mr. gauthier. yes; i am pointing towards the west. on the east it is bounded by houston street. on the south by main, which is a roadway going through dealey plaza. and on the west by the triple underpass. located on this plat map are street lights accurately located, a catch basin, certain trees, location of trees, the delineation of the concrete pergola, which you see here on the photograph, the outer boundaries of the pericycle, and the reflecting pool--locating exactly the window in the texas school book depository building, in the southeast corner, and also a tabulation of the measurements and angles that the surveyor has compiled from certain positions identified for him on the street by an observation from this window, an observation from the position of mr. zapruder---- mr. specter. when you say this window, which window did you mean? mr. gauthier. the window on the sixth floor of the texas school book depository building, the one in the southeast corner, the farthest window. mr. specter. and when you identify the zapruder position, what did you mean by that? mr. gauthier. this is a concrete abutment of the pergola, located in the area upon which zapruder was standing at the time the movies were made. (at this point, senator cooper entered the hearing room.) (at this point, representative ford withdrew from the hearing room.) mr. specter. are there any other positions noted on the diagram that you have been describing showing where other movies were made? mr. gauthier. yes. (at this point, chief justice warren withdrew from the hearing room.) mr. gauthier. we also locate the position of mr. nix, who also made movies of the motorcade at certain points on the roadway. mr. specter. on what street was mr. nix standing? mr. gauthier. i am pointing now to the south side of main street, approximately in front of the concrete pylon of the south pericycle structure. that is a short distance from the intersection of main and houston. mr. specter. a short distance west of the intersection? mr. gauthier. west. mr. specter. and what other position is shown of the situs of a movie photographer? mr. gauthier. we have another position here by mrs. mary muchmore, who made movies of the motorcade movement along the elm street roadway on november , . mr. specter. i now hand you a schedule which i have marked as commission exhibit no. and ask you what figures are contained thereon. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. gauthier. this is a copy of a tabulation which appears on the plat map. it contains certain positions marked as frame numbers. it indicates elevations and a column dealing with angle of sight from the frame positions to the window and to a horizontal line. it also contains angels of sight the degree of sight and distances from these positions to a point on the top of the bridge, handrail height. mr. specter. may it please the commission, that concludes the description of the general setting. i would like to move now at this time for the admission into evidence of exhibit no. , which completes all of the exhibits used heretofore. mr. mccloy. it may be admitted. (the document heretofore marked for identification as commission exhibit no. , was received in evidence.) mr. specter. may it please the commission, that completes the testimony of inspector gauthier. i would like to call mr. shaneyfelt. mr. mccloy. mr shaneyfelt? testimony of lyndal l. shaneyfelt mr. specter. would you state your full name for the record, please? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; lyndal l. shaneyfelt. mr. specter. by whom are you employed? mr. shaneyfelt. i am employed as a special agent of the federal bureau of investigation. mr. specter. and how long have you been so employed? mr. shaneyfelt. fourteen years. mr. specter. what are your duties, in a general way? mr shaneyfelt. i am assigned to the fbi laboratory, as a document examiner, and photographic expert. mr. specter. during the course of those duties, have you had occasion to make an analysis of certain movies which purport to have been taken of the assassination? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; i have. mr. specter. what movies have you examined? mr. shaneyfelt. i have examined a roll of -mm. motion pictures made by mr. abraham zapruder of dallas, tex., that he took on november , of the assassination of president kennedy. mr. specter. can you outline in a general way how the movies taken by mr. zapruder came into your possession? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; mr. zapruder, on realizing what he had in his photographs, took them immediately to a local dallas processing plant, had them processed, and had three copies made. he turned two copies of those movies over to representatives of the secret service. the original and other copy he sold to life magazine. the fbi was given one of the copies by the secret service. the secret service loaned a copy to us long enough for us to make a copy for our use, which we did, and this copy is the one that i have been examining. mr. specter. at any time in the course of the examination of the zapruder film, was the original of that movie obtained? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; it was. on february , mr. herbert orth, who is the assistant chief of the life magazine photographic laboratory, provided the original of the zapruder film for review by the commission representatives and representatives of the fbi and secret service here in the commission building. mr. specter. and what was the reason for his making that original available? mr. shaneyfelt. life magazine was reluctant to release the original because of the value. so he brought it down personally and projected it for us and allowed us to run through it several times, studying the original. mr. specter. was that because the copies were not distinct on certain important particulars? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. the original had considerably more detail and more there to study than any of the copies, since in the photographic process each time you copy you lose some detail. mr. specter. and subsequently, were slides made from the original of the zapruder film? mr. shaneyfelt. yes. since it was not practical to stop the projector when using the original of the zapruder film, because of the possibility of damage to the film, mr. orth volunteered to prepare -mm. color slides directly from the original movie of all of the pertinent frames of the assassination which were determined to be frames through . mr. specter. would you outline what you mean by frames, please? mr. shaneyfelt. yes. in motion picture films, the actual motion picture film consists of consecutive pictures that are made in rapid succession, each one being a separate exposure. and as the camera runs, it films these, and they are projected fast enough on the screen when you do not have the sensation of them being individual pictures, but you have the sensation of seeing the movement--even though they are individual little pictures on the film. so each one of those little pictures on the film is called a frame. mr. specter. and how did you number the frames? mr. shaneyfelt. i numbered the frames on the zapruder film beginning with no. at the assassination portion of his film. he did have on his film some photographs of a personal nature that we disregarded, and started at the first frame of his motion picture that was made there on elm street of the assassination. mr. specter. and what was happening at the time of frame ? mr. shaneyfelt. at the time of frame , the police motorcycle lead portion of the parade is in view, and that goes for several frames. then he stopped his camera, feeling that it might be some time before the presidential car came into view. then when the presidential car rounded the corner and came into view, he started his camera again, and kept it running throughout the route down elm street until the car went out of sight on his right. mr. specter. what other movies have been examined by you in the course of this analysis? mr. shaneyfelt. an amateur -mm. motion picture film made by a mr. orville nix of dallas, tex., has been examined. mr. nix was standing on the corner of houston and main streets, photographing the motorcade as it came down main street and turned right into houston street. mr. specter. would you explain briefly how you ascertained the location of mr. nix when he took those movies? mr. shaneyfelt. yes. at the time mr. nix took his movies of the motorcade coming down main street, he was standing on the corner, and photographed them turning the corner and going down houston street. mr. specter. you are now indicating the southwest corner of houston and main? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; southwest corner. after he heard the shots, he hurried down along the curb of main street, but did not remember exactly where he was standing. on the basis of his motion pictures, we were able to analyze the pictures using his camera, and on the d of may of this year, during the survey, preparatory to the reenactment, we reestablished this point by viewing pictures taken from his motion picture camera, at varying angles across here, in order to reestablish the point where he was standing, based on the relationship of this street light to other items in the background of the photograph. mr. specter. when you say this point, you mean the point of the nix position? mr. shaneyfelt. yes. mr. specter. and when you say this street light, you are referring to a street lamp on the opposite side of main street? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. mr. specter. would you outline in a general way how you obtained the copy of the nix film? mr. shaneyfelt. yes. the nix film was obtained as a result of a notice that the fbi gave to processing plants in the dallas area, that the fbi would be interested in obtaining or knowing about any film they processed, that had anything on it, relating to the assassination. and, as a result of this, we learned of the nix film and arranged to obtain a copy of it. mr. specter. did you analyze any other film in connection with this inquiry? mr. shaneyfelt. yes. i analyzed a film that was -mm. motion picture film taken by mrs. mary muchmore of dallas, tex. mr. specter. how did you obtain a copy of that film? mr. shaneyfelt. our first knowledge of this came as a result of a review of the book "four days" which covers the assassination period, in which representatives of the fbi noted a colored picture taken from a motion picture film that did not match either the nix film or the zapruder film. once we established that, then we investigated and learned that it was made by mrs. mary muchmore, and was at that time in the possession of united press international in new york, and made arrangements for them to furnish us with a copy of the muchmore film. that is the copy that i used for examination. mr. specter. where was mrs. muchmore standing at the time she took those movies? mr. shaneyfelt. mrs. muchmore was standing along houston street, close to the corner of main, on the west side of houston street, and photographed the motorcade as it came down main, turned into houston, and proceeded down houston. she says that when she heard the shots, she panicked, and did not take any further pictures. but a review of her film shows pictures of the assassination route, the motorcade going down elm street, beginning just before the shot that hit the president in the head, and continuing a short period after that. since she did not remember taking the pictures, we then, in the same manner we established mr. nix's position, by checking the photograph in relation to objects in the background, established her position along this structure that is marked on the map and found that she had come from the curb over to this point---- mr. specter. indicating a position on exhibit no. marked "muchmore position." mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. and this we established as her position when she photographed a portion of the assassination--motorcade. mr. specter. would you elaborate just a bit more on how you ascertained that position from fixed points in the background of the movie? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; we took a frame of the motion picture that is close to the beginning and a picture that is close to the end, and made a still photograph of those. we then establish a position and try to line up the relationship of objects close to where we are standing with objects in the background, so that they are in relation to each other as they are in the picture. then we take the other picture from farther along the motion picture film, and do the same thing, and where those two lines intersect is where she had to be standing. mr. specter. you draw two straight lines through two objects that you line up on each of those pictures, and the intersection point of those two lines is the calculated position of the camera. mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. mr. specter. and was that same system used to ascertain the position of mr. nix? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. mr. specter. and how did you ascertain the position of mr. zapruder? mr. shaneyfelt. mr. zapruder's position was known, as he was on the top of the abutment along elm street--he stated that he was standing on the abutment. and there is relatively no room to move around there, other than to stand there. it is about feet wide by to feet deep. (at this point, representative ford entered the hearing room.) mr. shaneyfelt. and aside from that, we checked that position against his photographs and determined that that was in fact correct. mr. specter. was the position of mr. zapruder confirmed through the use of any other film? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; in mr. nix's motion picture films you can see mr. zapruder standing on the abutment. senator cooper. may i ask a question there? after you had made those calculations to establish the position of mrs. muchmore and mr. nix and mr. zapruder, did you then identify those positions to the three and ask them whether or not it corresponded--your findings corresponded with their recollection as to where they were standing? mr. shaneyfelt. we did not do that; no. mr. nix, i might say, did state that he went down along this side--the south side of main street, along the curb, and it generally conforms to where he stated he went, but he could not place the exact position. we did, by this study. senator cooper. mr. zapruder's position was established by another photograph? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. mr. dulles. do i understand you correctly that mrs. muchmore didn't realize she had taken the later pictures that appear? mr. shaneyfelt. according to her statement, she said after hearing the shots, she panicked, and didn't take any more pictures. mr. dulles. you think she did? mr. shaneyfelt. on the film there are pictures. mr. specter. was the position of mrs. muchmore and mr. nix ascertained through a geometric calculation, lining up various points as you have just described? mr. shaneyfelt. well, it is actually a geometric calculation, although no strings were drawn or no lines were drawn. it is a matter of standing in a position out there with mr. nix's camera, and viewing the two different photographs we had selected, until we arrived at a point that matched. mr. specter. was there reasonable mathematical certainty in that alinement, within the limits of your observations of their pictures? mr. shaneyfelt. yes. mr. specter. did mr. zapruder himself point out his location on the abutment as depicted on exhibit no. ? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. mr. specter. now, how many occasions were you a participant in an analysis of these various films which you have just described? mr. shaneyfelt. seven. mr. specter. and when was the first time that you were a participant in such an analysis? mr. shaneyfelt. on january , . mr. specter. and who else has been with you at the time you analyzed those films--just stating in in a general way without identifying each person present on each of the occasions? mr. shaneyfelt. on most occasions, mr. gauthier of the fbi was present, i was present, mr. malley of the fbi was present. inspector kelley from secret service, and mr. john howlett from secret service. representatives of the commission were always present--normally mr. redlich, mr. specter, or mr. eisenberg were present. on several occasions mr. ball and mr. belin were present. mr. rankin was present on some occasions. i believe mr. mccloy was present on one occasion. various representatives of the commission were present. mr. specter. and how long did those analysis sessions ordinarily last? mr. shaneyfelt. they would normally last most of the day, about all day. mr. specter. and what would be done during the course of those analytical sessions? mr. shaneyfelt. in each case we would take the film and run it through regular speed, slow motion, we would stop it on individual frames and study it frame by frame, trying to see in the photographs anything that would give any indication of a shot hitting its mark, a reaction of the president, a reaction of mr. connally or mrs. connally, reaction of the secret service agents, reaction of people in the crowd, relating it to all the facts that we felt were important. when we obtained the slides from life magazine, we went through those very thoroughly, because they gave so much more detail and were so much clearer and analyzed again all these things about the reaction of the president and mr. connally, trying to ascertain where he was reacting--whether either one was reacting to being hit. of course the only shot that is readily apparent in any of the films, and it appears in the zapruder, the nix, and the muchmore films, is the shot that hit the president in the head. mr. specter. why do you say that is readily apparent? mr. shaneyfelt. because on the film there is practically an explosion of his head and this is obviously the shot that hit the president in the head. it is very apparent from the photograph. mr. specter. now, were any others present at any time, such as witnesses who appeared before the commission, during the analysis sessions on these films and slides? mr. shaneyfelt. yes. on april , representatives of the commission, fbi, and doctors--dr. hume of the navy, who is at bethesda, commander boswell from the u.s. navy medical school at bethesda, colonel finck, chief of the wound ballistics pathology of the armed forces institute of pathology. mr. specter. are those the autopsy surgeons? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; that is my understanding. dr. olivier, from edgewood arsenal, dr. light, from edgewood arsenal, were present also with dr. humes and the others, on april . mr. specter. did any individuals who were present at the motorcade itself ever have an opportunity to view the films and slides? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; on april , films were again viewed by representatives of the commission and the fbi, and at that time drs. gregory and shaw, from parkland hospital in dallas, were available, drs. light and olivier, and a dr. dolce, and governor and mrs. connally were present. and at all of the viewings, they were again reviewed frame by frame, studied by the doctors to tie it in with their findings, studied by the parkland doctors, and studied by the connallys, to try to tie in where the shots occurred along the film. mr. specter. i now hand you an album which has been marked as commission exhibit no. . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. specter. i ask you to state what that album depicts. mr. shaneyfelt. this is an album that i prepared of black and white photographs made of the majority of the frames in the zapruder film---- mr. specter. starting with what frame number? mr. shaneyfelt. starting with frame , going through frame . mr. specter. and why did you start with frame ? mr. shaneyfelt. this is the frame that the slides start from. this was an arbitrary frame number that was decided on as being far enough back to include the area that we wanted to study. mr. specter. is that a frame where president kennedy comes into full view after the motorcade turns left off of houston onto elm street? mr. shaneyfelt. yes, yes. mr. specter. and how was the ending point of that frame sequence, being no. , fixed? mr. shaneyfelt. it was fixed as several frames past the shot that hit the president in the head. frame is the frame showing the shot to the president's head, and it ends at . mr. specter. are there any other photographs in that album in addition to the zapruder frames? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; there are. there are six photographs selected at random from the nix film, including frame , which is a frame depicting the shot to the head of the president, and there are three photographs picked at random from the muchmore film, including frame , which is the frame depicting the head shot. these are the pictures that were used in establishing the location of the nix and muchmore cameras on location in dallas. frame , which is the first one of the nix series, is the one showing mr. zapruder standing on the projection. mr. specter. and where was the viewing of the films and slides undertaken? mr. shaneyfelt. they have been viewed here at the commission--all those in addition to the ones i have made personally in the fbi laboratory. mr. specter. and was that down on the first floor of the vfw building here? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. mr. specter. and was there any model available adjacent to the area where the films were shown, for use in re-creating or reconstructing the assassination events? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; the model was available and used. mr. specter. is that the model which has been described earlier this afternoon by inspector gauthier? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. mr. specter. were you present on may in dallas, tex.? mr. shaneyfelt. yes. mr. specter. and what, if anything, was done at the site of the assassination on that date? mr. shaneyfelt. on may , , representatives of the commission, secret service, and fbi reenacted the assassination, relocated specific locations of the car on the street based on the motion pictures, and in general staged a reenactment. mr. specter. who was present at that time representing the commission? mr. shaneyfelt. the commission was represented by mr. rankin, mr. specter, and mr. redlich. mr. specter. and who was present at that time from the fbi? mr. shaneyfelt. i was present, inspector gauthier was present, inspector j. r. malley was present, special agent r. a. frazier was present, with some aids, assistants. mr. specter. other aids from the fbi were also present? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; in addition, there were several agents from the dallas office of the federal bureau of investigation who assisted. mr. specter. and were there representatives of the secret service participating in that onsite testing? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; there were. inspector kelley was present, agent john howlett was present, the driver of the car, or the secret service agent whose name i do not recall---- mr. specter. george hickey? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. mr. specter. and at what time did the onsite test start? mr. shaneyfelt. they started at o'clock sunday morning. mr. specter. why was that time selected? mr. shaneyfelt. the time was selected because of the traffic in the area. the dallas police department recommended that that would be the most logical time to do it, causing the least problem with traffic. mr. specter. at what time did the onsite tests conclude? mr. shaneyfelt. they concluded about o'clock, : to o'clock. mr. specter. was there any subsequent testing done in dallas on that day? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; there was. mr. specter. and where was that testing undertaken? mr. shaneyfelt. there was some testing done in a railway express agency garage nearby the assassination site. mr. specter. at what time did that start? mr. shaneyfelt. that started at p.m., and lasted until : p.m. mr. specter. where were the various individuals positioned who participated in these onsite tests at the outset, at, say, a.m., on the th of may? mr. shaneyfelt. at the very beginning, at a.m., mr. rankin and mr. specter were in the sixth floor window of the texas school book depository building, which is the southeast corner of the building, sixth floor window, which was referred to as our control point, and where we had the master radio control for the other units. mr. redlich was on the street with the car. at the car on the street were the occupants of the car, the secret service driver, mr. hickey, an agent from the fbi, who handled radio contact with control, agents anderton and williams in the president's and connally's seats, mr. gauthier and his aids, a surveyor, and i, were all on the ground in the vicinity of the car. agent frazier was in the window of the book building at the control point with the rifle that was found at the window following the assassination. mr. specter. now, was that rifle found at the window or in another location on the sixth floor? mr. shaneyfelt. in another location on the sixth floor. mr. specter. and that is the mannlicher-carcano rifle which was heretofore identified as commission exhibit no. ? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. mr. specter. and where were you positioned on most of the occasions at the time of the onsite tests? mr. shaneyfelt. for the first portion of them, i was at the car in the street, and at the position of mr. zapruder, the position from which he took his pictures. mr. specter. what communications were available, if any, among the participants at the various locations heretofore described? mr. shaneyfelt. we had radio contact between all points. mr. specter. what was the starting position of the car at the most easterly position on elm street, immediately after turning off houston street? mr. shaneyfelt. the first position we established that morning was frame . mr. specter. was there not a position established prior in sequence to frame , specifically that designated as position a? mr. shaneyfelt. that was actually established later. but the first one to be actually located was . and we went back later and positioned point a. mr. specter. well, let's start with the position which is the most easterly point on elm street, which i believe would be position a, would it not? mr. shaneyfelt. yes. mr. specter. have you a photographic exhibit depicting that position? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; in each of the positions that we established, we used, insofar as possible, the zapruder pictures to establish the position, or we established it from the window, and made photographs from the position mr. zapruder was standing in. mr. specter. this chart has been marked as commission exhibit no. . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. shaneyfelt. this shows the photograph that was made from the point where zapruder was standing looking toward the car, and is a point that we have designated as position a because it is in a position that did not appear on the zapruder film. the zapruder film does not start until the car gets farther down elm street. mr. specter. what is that exhibit number? mr. shaneyfelt. exhibit no. . mr. specter. and why was that location selected for the position of the car? mr. shaneyfelt. this location was selected as the first point at which a person in the sixth floor window of the book building at our control point could have gotten a shot at the president after the car had rounded the corner from houston to elm. mr. specter. and what position is station c? mr. shaneyfelt. station c is on a line drawn along the west curb line of houston street in a direct line, and station c is at a point along that line that is in line with where the car would have turned coming around that corner. it is on a line which is an extension of the west curb line of houston street. mr. dulles. where is position a on that chart? mr. shaneyfelt. position a is here. mr. mccloy. that is before you get to the tree? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; he isn't under the tree yet. mr. specter. and what occupant, if any, in the car is position a sighted on for measuring purposes? mr. shaneyfelt. all of the photographs made through the rifle sight that are shown on the exhibit in the lower left-hand corner were sighted on the spot that was simulating the spot where the president was wounded in the neck. the chalk mark is on the back of the coat. mr. specter. when you say that position a is the first position at which president kennedy was in view of the marksman from the southeast window on the sixth floor of the school book depository building, you mean by that the first position where the marksman saw the rear of the president's stand-in? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. mr. specter. so that would be the first position where the marksman could focus in on the circled point where the point of entry on the president was marked? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. mr. specter. could the marksman then have taken a shot at the president at any prior position and have struck him with the point of entry on that spot, on the base of the president's neck? mr. shaneyfelt. i don't quite understand the question. mr. specter. was there any prior position, that is a position before position a, where the marksman from the sixth floor could have fired the weapon and have struck the president at the known point of entry at the base of the back of his neck? mr. shaneyfelt. no; because as the car moves back, you lose sight of the chalk mark on the back of his coat. mr. specter. and what is the distance between that point on the president and station c? mr. shaneyfelt. that is feet from station c-- . feet to the rifle in the window from the actual chalk mark on the coat. all measurements were made to the chalk mark on the coat. mr. specter. on the coat of the president? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. mr. specter. the president's stand-in? mr. shaneyfelt. right. the angle to the rifle in the window was ° ´. mr. specter. and what is the other data? mr. shaneyfelt. the distance to the overpass was feet, and the angle to the overpass was minus o° ´; that is, ´ below the horizontal. senator cooper. may i ask a question there? how did you establish the location of the rifle in making those calculations? mr. shaneyfelt. the location of the rifle was established on the basis of other testimony and information furnished to us by the commission, photographs taken by the dallas police department immediately after the assassination, and the known opening of the window. it was an estimation of where the rifle most likely was based on the knowledge that the commission has through testimony. mr. specter. senator cooper, mr. frazier is present and has been sworn, and he is going to identify that. he could do it at this time, to pinpoint that issue. senator cooper. i think we can just make a note of that, and go ahead with this witness. mr. specter. fine. we will proceed then with this witness and mr. frazier will testify in due course. mr. shaneyfelt. i might say that this position was determined by mr. frazier in the window. we moved the car around until he told us from the window, viewing through the rifle, the point where he wanted the car to stop. and he was the one in the window that told us where the point a was. once we established that, we then photographed it. mr. dulles. could he see the mark on the back of the coat from the window? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; through the rifle scope, he could see the mark. mr. specter. does the picture designated "photograph through rifle scope" depict the actual view of the rifleman through the actual mannlicher-carcano weapon? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. at point a. senator cooper. when mr. frazier testifies, then, will he correlate this photograph with a frame from photographs taken of the actual motorcade at the time of the assassination? mr. shaneyfelt. no; we cannot correlate this with a frame from the motion picture because mr. zapruder didn't start taking pictures until the car had passed this point. so we, therefore, on this frame and for the next two or three points, have no picture from mr. zapruder, since he wasn't taking pictures at that time. mr. dulles. off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. dulles. back on the record. do i understand that you are not suggesting that a shot was necessarily fired at this point a, but this was the first point where this particular vision of the president's back could have been obtained? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. it is only an arbitrary point showing the first possible shot that could have entered the president's coat at this chalk mark. representative ford. what criteria did you use for determining that you could see the chalk mark? was the criteria a part or the whole of the chalk mark? mr. shaneyfelt. the actual manner in which it was set up--let me see if this answers your question. as we moved the car around, mr. frazier was in the window looking through the actual scope of the rifle, and could see very clearly the president or the man taking the president's place, as the car moved around. and the instant that he could first see that chalk mark is the point where he radioed to us to stop the car, and is the first point at which a shot could be fired that would go in where the chalk mark is located. mr. dulles. and that is point a? mr. shaneyfelt. that is point a. does that answer your question? representative ford. i think it does. is that picture in the lower left-hand corner of exhibit no. an actual photograph taken through the sight of the weapon that was allegedly used in the assassination? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. representative ford. and the chalk mark we see there is through that sight? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. and that is exactly what an individual looking through the sight would see. mr. specter. then at point a, could the rifleman see the entire back of the president's stand-in as well as the specific chalk mark, as depicted on the exhibit? mr. shaneyfelt. he could see only a portion of the back. mr. specter. and the portion, which he could not see, is that which is below the seat level? mr. shaneyfelt. yes. mr. dulles. you didn't say the president's stand-in, did you? mr. specter. yes; stand-in. mr. shaneyfelt, for purposes of illustration would you produce the photograph at this time showing the mounting of the motion picture camera on the weapon found on the sixth floor? i now hand you a photograph which is being marked as commission exhibit no. and ask you to state for the record who that is a picture of, and what else is in the photograph. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. shaneyfelt. commission exhibit no. is a picture of me that was taken on may , . my location was at the sixth floor window of the texas school book depository that we have designated as our control point. i have the rifle that is the assassination rifle mounted on a tripod, and on the rifle is mounted an arriflex -mm. motion picture camera, that is alined to take photographs through the telescopic sight. this arriflex motion picture camera is commonly known as a reflex camera in that as you view through the viewfinder a prism allows you to view directly through the lens system as you are taking your photographs so that as i took the photographs looking into the viewfinder i was also looking through the scope and seeing the actual image that was being recorded on the film. mr. specter. was the view recorded on the film as shown on exhibit no. the actual view which would have been seen had you been looking through the telescopic sight of the mannlicher-carcano itself? mr. shaneyfelt. yes. mr. specter. how did you determine the level and angle at which to hold the rifle? mr. shaneyfelt. i placed the rifle in the approximate position based on prior knowledge of where the boxes were stacked and the elevation of the window and other information that was furnished to me by representatives of the commission. mr. dulles. you used the same boxes, did you, that the assassin had used? mr. shaneyfelt. no; i did not. mr. specter. were those boxes used by mr. frazier. mr. shaneyfelt. they were used by mr. frazier and used in making the measurements. i had to use a tripod because of the weight of the camera and placed the elevation of the rifle at an approximate height in a position as though the boxes were there. mr. specter. was mr. frazier present at the time you positioned the rifle on the tripod? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; he was. mr. specter. did he assist in describing for you or did you have an opportunity to observe the way he held a rifle to ascertain the approximate position of the rifle at that time? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. mr. specter. may it please the commission, we will, with mr. frazier, indicate, the reasons he held the rifle in the way he did to approximate the way we believe it was held at the time of the assassination. what is the next position which has been depicted on one of your exhibits, please. mr. shaneyfelt. the next position that we established during the reenactment is frame of the zapruder motion picture film. mr. specter. permit me to mark that if you would as commission exhibit no. . (commission exhibit no. was marked for identification.) mr. shaneyfelt. this position which has been designated by us as frame and as commission exhibit no. , was established as the last position that the car could be in where the rifleman in the window could get a clear shot of the president in the car before the car went under the covering of the tree. mr. specter. how was that position located, from the ground or from the sixth floor? mr. shaneyfelt. this was positioned by mr. frazier in the sixth floor window. in addition we knew from the zapruder photographs the relative position of the car in the street as related to the curb and the guidelines or the lane lines. following those lane lines we then moved the car down to a point where mr. frazier radioed to us that it was the last point at which he could get a clear shot and we stopped the car there. mr. specter. how did you then select the appropriate frame from the zapruder film? mr. shaneyfelt. after mr. frazier had stationed the car at this point, i then went to the position of mr. zapruder. based on his motion pictures, a comparison of the photograph that we made with the photograph from the film, i was able to state that because of the relative position of the car in the street and in relation to other objects in the background, it corresponded to frame of the motion picture. mr. specter. do you have on exhibit no. a reproduction of frame ? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; the upper left-hand corner is a reproduction of the frame of the zapruder motion picture. the picture on the upper right is a photograph that i made with a speed graphic camera from zapruder's position of the car reestablished in that location. the photograph in the lower left-hand corner, is a photograph of the view through the rifle scope that mr. frazier saw at the time he positioned the car there. this is the view that you would obtain from looking through the rifle scope from the sixth floor window. mr. specter. was the automobile in exactly the same position at the time of the taking of the "photograph through rifle scope" and the "photograph from reenactment"? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; approximately the same. we went through all stations with mr. frazier in the window and i took photographs from mr. zapruder's position, and once establishing a frame position, we marked it clearly in the street. after we had taken all of the photographs from zapruder's position, we then took the car back, and went to the sixth floor window and mounted the motion picture camera on the rifle. these photographs were made by rolling the car in the same position based on the marks we had in the street so it was as accurate as could be done in the same position. mr. dulles. there is no one sitting in that right-hand corner of the rear seat, is there in that picture? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; the person taking president kennedy's place is sitting in the back seat. mr. dulles. yes; i see it. it is rather hard to see through the trees. mr. shaneyfelt. yes; we moved it up to a point where the chalk mark was just about to disappear on the street. mr. dulles. i don't think i see the chalk mark maybe someone else can. mr. shaneyfelt. it may be covered by the crosshair of the rifle scope. representative ford. in that picture photographed through the rifle scope on exhibit no. a man standing in for governor connally is also in the car, is he not? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. he is mostly hidden by the tree. mr. dulles. yes; i see. mr. specter. was there any difference between the position of president kennedy's stand-in and the position of president kennedy on the day of the assassination by virtue of any difference in the automobiles in which each rode? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; because of the difference in the automobiles there was a variation of inches, a vertical distance of inches that had to be considered. the stand-in for president kennedy was sitting inches higher and the stand-in for governor connally was sitting inches higher than the president and governor connally were sitting and we took this into account in our calculations. mr. specter. was any allowance then made in the photographing of the first point or rather last point at which the spot was visible on the back of the coat of president kennedy's stand-in before passing under the oak tree? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; there was. after establishing this position, represented by frame , where the chalk mark was about to disappear under the tree, we established a point inches below that as the actual point where president kennedy would have had a chalk mark on his back or where the wound would have been if the car was inches lower. and we rolled the car then sufficiently forward to reestablish the position that the chalk mark would be in at its last clear shot before going under the tree, based on this inches, and this gave us frame of the zapruder film. mr. specter. what commission exhibit number has been affixed to that? mr. shaneyfelt. this is commission exhibit no. . (commission exhibit no. was marked for identification.) mr. dulles. is that inches difference due to the difference in the two cars? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. mr. dulles. that is the president's--the car the president was in and the car you had to use for this particular test? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. mr. specter. on exhibit no. , is the car in the same position on the "photograph through rifle scope" as it is on "photograph from reenactment"? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct, the same position. mr. specter. and what is the comparison between the photograph from zapruder film on that exhibit no. and the photograph from reenactment? mr. shaneyfelt. the car is in the same position relative to the surrounding area in both the reenactment photograph and the zapruder photograph. incidentally, the position that was used throughout all of the positioning of the car was the president's. his placement in the photograph, and this will be clearer in some of the later photographs, if the president's head was directly under a stop sign or a street sign or whatever, in the background, this was then the way we positioned the car with the person standing in for the president directly below or slightly to the side or directly below the stop sign and so on; so all of the calculations were based upon the position of the president. mr. specter. before leaving frame , finally, would you recite the distances which appear from the various points on that exhibit? mr. shaneyfelt. yes. at the position that has been designated as frame , and appears on commission exhibit no. , the distance from the wound mark on a stand-in for president kennedy to station c was . feet. the distance to the rifle in the window was . feet, the angle to the window was ° ' based on the horizontal line, the distance to the overpass was . feet, and the angle to the overpass was minus ° ´. mr. specter. are all angles calculated thereon based on the horizontal? mr. shaneyfelt. yes. mr. specter. was there any street angle taken into consideration in the calculations here? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; there is a ° street grade that has to be deducted from the angle to the window to determine the actual angle from the street to the window as opposed to the horizon. mr. specter. will you now---- mr. dulles. frame is ° on ? mr. shaneyfelt. three degrees all along elm street. mr. dulles. all along. that applies to all of these different pictures, is that correct? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. mr. specter. would you now read the same statistical data from frame on exhibit no. , please? mr. shaneyfelt. yes. from the chalk mark on the back of the stand-in for president kennedy, to station c is . feet, the distance to rifle in window, . feet, the angle to rifle in window based on the horizontal, is minus ° ´. distance to overpass is . feet. the angle to the overpass is ° ´. mr. specter. did the back of president kennedy ever come into view at any time while he was passing through the foliage of the oak tree? mr. shaneyfelt. yes. mr. specter. what frame number was ascertained with respect to that position? mr. shaneyfelt. this was determined to be frame . there is a slight opening in the tree, where the car passed under the tree, where a shot could have been fired that would have passed through this opening in the tree. this again was positioned on the basis of mr. frazier in the window looking through the rifle scope and telling us on the street where to stop the car at the point where he could get a shot through the trees. mr. specter. what commission exhibit number has been assigned to frame ? mr. shaneyfelt. this is commission exhibit no. , frame . mr. specter. is the "photograph through rifle scope" taken with the position of the car at the same place as "photograph from reenactment"? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. mr. specter. and is the "photograph from reenactment" in the same position, as close as you could make it to the "photograph from zapruder's film"? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. mr. specter. will you read the statistical data from frame ? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; from the point of the chalk on the back of the stand-in for the president at position to station c is . feet, the distance to rifle on window is . feet. the angle to rifle in window based on horizontal is ° ´, distance to overpass is . feet. the angle to the overpass is ° ´ above horizontal. mr. specter. was there any adjustment made for the difference in the height of the automobiles on the location where the back of the president's stand-in was visible through the tree? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; there was an adjustment made for the inch differential in the heights because of the different cars, and this was established as frame . mr. specter. what commission exhibit number is affixed to frame ? mr. shaneyfelt. commission exhibit no. . mr. specter. on exhibit no. is the car in the same position in "photograph through rifle scope" and "photograph from reenactment"? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. mr. specter. are the cars on those two pictures in the same positions on all of the frames which you are going to show this afternoon? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. mr. specter. in the "photograph from zapruder film", does that "photograph from zapruder film" show the presidential automobile to be in the same position or as close to the same position as you could make it as is the replica car in the "photograph from reenactment"? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. mr. specter. will you read the statistical data from frame , please? mr. shaneyfelt. yes. at frame position the distance from the chalk mark on the back of the stand-in for the president was . feet from the station c. it was . feet to the rifle in the window. the angle to the rifle in the window was ° ' based on the horizontal. distance to the overpass was . feet. the angle to the overpass is ° ´. mr. specter. was that position ascertained where the chalk spot on the back of president kennedy's coat was first visible from the sixth floor window through the telescopic sight? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. mr. dulles. this is after passing the tree. mr. shaneyfelt. yes. mr. specter. after passing out from under the oak tree. mr. shaneyfelt. yes. mr. specter. what frame did that turn out to be? mr. shaneyfelt. that was frame . mr. specter. do you have an exhibit depicting the same photographic sequence on frame ? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; i do. mr. specter. what commission exhibit number has been affixed to that frame? mr. shaneyfelt. commission exhibit no. . mr. specter. is the car in the same position on "photograph through rifle scope" and "photograph from reenactment" on that exhibit? mr. shaneyfelt. yes. mr. specter. is the car in the same position, as closely as you could make it, on the "photograph from reenactment" and "photograph from zapruder film"? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. mr. specter. will you now read the statistical data from that exhibit? mr. shaneyfelt. yes. distance from the chalk mark on the back of the stand-in for the president to the station c is . feet. distance to rifle in the window is . feet. the angle to the rifle in the window based on the horizontal is ° '. the distance to the overpass is . feet, and the angle to the overpass is ° '. this is on frame , commission exhibit no. . mr. specter. was an adjustment made on that position for the heights of the automobiles? mr. shaneyfelt. yes. mr. specter. what was the adjusted frame for the first view that the marksman had of the president's stand-in coming out from under the tree? mr. shaneyfelt. that is frame and has been marked as commission exhibit no. and represents the -inch adjustment for the difference in the height of the car as compared with frame . mr. specter. is the layout of frame exactly the same as that for frames and that you have already testified about? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. mr. specter. in viewing the films on the frames preceding , what was president kennedy doing? mr. shaneyfelt. he is waving to the crowd, and in some frames it is obvious that he is smiling, you can actually see a happy expression on his face and his hand---- mr. dulles. which way is he turning, to the left or to the right? mr. shaneyfelt. he is looking toward the crowd to his right during most of that area, he is looking slightly to his right. his arm is up on the side of the car and his hand is in a wave, in approximately this position and he appears to be smiling. mr. specter. what is the latest frame count where, to your eye, it appears that he is showing no reaction to any possible shot? mr. shaneyfelt. approximately--i would like to explain a little bit, that at frames in the vicinity of to he is obviously still waving, and there is no marked change. in the area from approximately to he is still, his hand is still in a waving position, he is still turned slightly toward the crowd, and there has been no change in his position that would signify anything occurring unusual. i see nothing in the frames to arouse my suspicion about his movements, up through in the areas from on and as he disappears behind the signboard, there is no change. now, is the last frame, and are the last frames where we see any of his, where we see the cuff of his coat showing above the signboard indicating his hand is still up generally in a wave. from there on the frames are too blurry as his head disappears you can't really see any expression on his face. you can't see any change. it is all consistent as he moves in behind the signboard. mr. specter. when you say "signboard" what do you mean by that, mr. shaneyfelt? mr. shaneyfelt. i refer to the sign that is between the photographer, mr. zapruder, and the presidential car. representative ford. not any sign post between the rifleman and the president? mr. shaneyfelt. no; this is a sign between the cameraman and the president. so that we are unable to see his reaction, if any. mr. specter. what is the frame at which governor connally first emerges from behind the sign you just described? mr. shaneyfelt. that is frame . mr. specter. have you prepared a model demonstration on frame ? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; i have. mr. specter. what commission exhibit number has just been affixed on that frame? mr. shaneyfelt. frame has been given commission exhibit no. . mr. specter. was the location of the automobile fixed from the window or from the street on frame ? mr. shaneyfelt. on frame , the position of the automobile was fixed from the street, based on the photograph from the zapruder film. mr. specter. are the various photographs on that frame and the various distances the same in terms of general layout as the prior exhibit you testified to? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. mr. specter. what is the first frame at which president kennedy is visible coming out from behind that sign? mr. shaneyfelt. this is frame . mr. specter. what commission exhibit has been affixed to frame ? mr. shaneyfelt. frame has been assigned commission exhibit no. . mr. specter. what, if anything, is detectable from a view of the zapruder film frame as to the positions or reaction of president kennedy? mr. shaneyfelt. frame there appears to be a reaction on the part of the president. this is---- mr. specter. describe specifically what movement he is making in that picture or what his position is? mr. shaneyfelt. at frame his hand is down, his right hand that was waving is down, and has been brought down as though it were reaching for his lapel or his throat. the other hand, his left hand is on his lapel but rather high, as though it were coming up, and he is beginning to go into a hunched position. mr. specter. when you say beginning to go into a hunched position is that apparent to you from viewing the motion picture and slides from the frames which succeed frame ? mr. shaneyfelt. that is primarily apparent from the motion picture because of the two or three or four frames that show as he emerges from the sign; that is, in the motion picture, you see the president reaching for his coat lapels and going into a hunched position, leaning forward and lowering his head. mr. mccloy. that doesn't exist in frame yet, does it? mr. shaneyfelt. it is just beginning in frame . that is frame is the first view we have of the president. mr. mccloy. out past the sign. mr. shaneyfelt. as he comes out from behind the sign that obstructs the cameraman from the president. mr. dulles. but there is no obstruction from the sixth floor window? mr. shaneyfelt, no; no obstruction at this point. there is no obstruction from the sixth floor window from the time they leave the tree until they disappear down toward the triple overpass. mr. specter. do the photographs on frame depict the same circumstances as those depicted on the prior exhibits? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. mr. specter. and do the measurements on frame cover the same subjects as those covered on prior exhibits? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. mr. specter. what is the angle from the rifle to the spot on the president's back on frame , please? mr. shaneyfelt. on frame , the angle from the rifle to the window, based on the horizon is ° ´. mr. specter. that is from the rifle to what, mr. shaneyfelt. mr. shaneyfelt. from the rifle to the chalk mark on the back of the stand-in for the president. mr. specter. what is the same angle at frame ? mr. shaneyfelt. it is ° ´. mr. specter. those angles are computed to the horizontal? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. mr. specter. what is the range of distance from the position of the car in frame to the position of the car in frame ? mr. shaneyfelt. that is . feet between frame and frame . mr. specter. what is the position of president kennedy at frame with respect to position c. mr. shaneyfelt. president kennedy is . feet from station c at frame . mr. specter. station c. mr. shaneyfelt. yes; station c to president kennedy on frame is . feet. mr. specter. what is the distance between station c and president kennedy at frame ? mr. shaneyfelt. that is . feet. mr. specter. was the car further positioned at frame ? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; it was. mr. specter. what commission exhibit number are we affixing to that? mr. shaneyfelt. that is commission exhibit no. . mr. specter. are the photographs and measurements on the same layout as those affixed to prior exhibits? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. mr. specter. was the automobile stopped at frame and similar photographs and measurements taken? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. mr. specter. what commission exhibit number is affixed to frame . mr. shaneyfelt. exhibit no. . mr. specter. was the automobile again stopped at frame with measurements and photographs taken similar to those in prior exhibits? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; it was. that is correct. mr. specter. what commission exhibit number is affixed to that frame? mr. shaneyfelt. exhibit no. . mr. specter. was the automobile again stopped at frame with similar photographs and measurements taken? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. mr. specter. and what commission exhibit number is given to those calculations and photographs on frame ? mr. shaneyfelt. commission exhibit . mr. specter. now, as to frame , that is how many frames beyond the first point at which the spot on president kennedy's back was visible after he passed out from under the oak tree? mr. shaneyfelt. that is ? mr. specter. yes. mr. shaneyfelt. it is frames. mr. specter. and does a -frame count have any significance with respect to the firing time on the mannlicher-carcano rifle? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; we have established that the zapruder motion picture camera operates at an average speed of . frames per second. and we have been advised that the minimum time for firing the rifle in successive shots is approximately two and a quarter seconds. so this gives us then a figure of two and a quarter seconds of frames; at . , this gives us this figure of to frames. representative ford. would you repeat that again, please? mr. shaneyfelt. the camera operates at a speed of . frames per second. so that in two and a quarter seconds it would run through about -- to frames. representative ford. then the firing of the rifle, repeat that again? mr. shaneyfelt. as to the firing of the rifle--we have been advised that the minimum time for getting off two successive well-aimed shots on the rifle is approximately two and a quarter seconds. that is the basis for using this to frames to establish two points in the film where two successive quick shots could have been fired. representative ford. that is with one shot and then the firing. mr. shaneyfelt. work the bolt and fire another one. mr. specter. at frame was governor connally in a position where he could have taken a shot with the bullet entering at the point immediately to the left under his right armpit with the bullet then going through and exiting at a point immediately under his right nipple? mr. shaneyfelt. no; governor connally has begun to turn in his seat around in this manner, in such a way, turn to his right so that his body is in a position that a shot fired from the sixth floor window could not have passed through the path that it reportedly took through his body, if the bullet followed a straight, undeflected path. mr. dulles. i don't quite get that. you mean because of his having turned this way, the shot that was then--had then been fired and apparently had hit the president could not have gone through him at that point? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct under the stated conditions. even a shot, independent of the shot that hit the president, could not have gone through in that manner, coming from the sixth floor window, because the window was almost directly behind the automobile at that time and the governor was in a position where the bullet couldn't have gone through his body in the manner that it reportedly did. it would have come in through his shoulder and out through the other shoulder, in the way that he was lined up with the window. mr. specter. so you say it could have gone through him, but it could not have passed through him with the angle of entry as disclosed in the parkland hospital records and described by dr. shaw? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct, if it followed a straight path. mr. specter. and exiting immediately under his right nipple, again as described in the hospital records at parkland and by dr. shaw. mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. mr. specter. have those points of entry and exit been made available to you in your analysis of this situation? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; they have. mr. specter. could you elaborate just a little further on the observations and reasoning which you have undertaken to come to the conclusion which you have just expressed? mr. shaneyfelt. we are speaking of frame , are we? mr. specter. yes, sir, frame . mr. shaneyfelt. could i see that exhibit? the photograph in the lower left corner of commission exhibit no. is the photograph taken through the scope of the rifle on the sixth floor window when the car was stationed in this frame number position. it is noted from this photograph that the rifle is not quite directly behind the car but very nearly directly behind the car. governor connally's body is turned. we have duplicated the position in the zapruder photographs of governor connally and the president in the reenactment photograph, as nearly as possible, duplicated the same body position, and from the sixth floor window then you can see from the photograph that the governor's body is turned to the governor's right in such a fashion that an undeflected shot would not go through in the path as described by the parkland doctors. mr. mccloy. i don't quite follow that yet. the president has been shot at frame , according to your theory. mr. shaneyfelt. yes. mr. mccloy. might he not also have been shot at some earlier frames in--the indications are the reactions are shown considerably ahead of that frame. mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. mr. mccloy. so, for example, at frame and at frame governor connolly hasn't turned to the right. mr. dulles. but a shot has been fired at this time. mr. mccloy. but a shot has been fired at that time. mr. shaneyfelt. yes. mr. mccloy. so at that point he could have been hit; governor connally could have been hit. mr. shaneyfelt. yes; governor connally could have been hit by frame . mr. mccloy. but your point is when he gets farther along, he couldn't have been hit, let's say at frame in the same spot where he was hit. mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. mr. mccloy. yes. mr. dulles. he made the turn later than those frames you have been discussing at the time apparently of the first shot at the president. mr. mccloy. yes; the first shot, but according to these frames, the first shot hit the president considerably before this. mr. shaneyfelt. yes, sir. mr. mccloy. and at a time again when governor connally's back was square to the window. mr. shaneyfelt. well, not exactly square. i believe he was turned slightly to the right as he went behind the sign. mr. mccloy. take frame . mr. shaneyfelt. yes. mr. mccloy. there the president has got his hands up as you put it to his throat. mr. shaneyfelt. yes. mr. mccloy. and here is connally facing to the front. mr. shaneyfelt. yes. mr. mccloy. so at that point a bullet coming through the president's throat could have hit connally in the spot where it did hit connally. mr. shaneyfelt. i am going to defer that question to mr. frazier who is in the window with the rifle scope and made a more thorough study of the possible path of the bullet. but he is straight in the car in frame . mr. mccloy. but your testimony is in frame --frame connally couldn't have been hit from this window in the position where he was sitting. mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct, on the basis stated. mr. dulles. but, you would have then the problem you would think if connally had been hit at the same time, would have reacted in the same way, and not reacted much later as these pictures show. mr. mccloy. that is right. mr. dulles. because the wounds would have been inflicted. mr. mccloy. that is what puzzles me. mr. dulles. that is what puzzles me. senator cooper. would you identify the frame in which governor connally started turning to the right? mr. shaneyfelt. i might say that as--in the motion picture--as the car comes out from behind the signboard, the governor is turned slightly to his right in this manner. this would be in the first frame, in frame , he is turned just slightly to his right, and from there on he turns almost square, straight on with the car momentarily, and there is a jerking motion there at one point in the film about there, at which time he starts to turn this way and continues to turn. mr. dulles. jerky motion in connally in the film. mr. shaneyfelt. there is--it may be merely where he stopped turning and started turning this way. it is hard to analyze. mr. dulles. what i wanted to get at--whether it was connally who made the jerky motion or there was something in the film that was jerky. you can't tell. mr. shaneyfelt. you can't tell that. mr. mccloy. certainly the film is jerky at that point. i mean there is a big blur. mr. shaneyfelt. he does turn. mr. mccloy. just before and after that. representative ford. but isn't it apparent in those pictures that after a slight hesitation governor connally's body turns more violently than the president's body? mr. shaneyfelt. yes. representative ford. the president's only reaction is a motion to his throat or to his neck with his hands. mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. representative ford. whereas governor connally actually turns his body rather sharply? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; he turns as they go behind the signboard, he turns this way and he is turning a little bit this way and as he comes out of the signboard he is facing slightly to the right, comes around straight on and then he turns to his left straight on, and then he turns to his right, continues to turn around and falls over in mrs. connally's lap. but in the motion picture it is a continuous movement as he goes around and falls. senator cooper. will you again answer my question which i asked and hasn't been answered and i say with all respect, in what frame did governor connally begin to turn to the right after he had placed his position straightforward as you have testified. mr. shaneyfelt. i am sorry. that starts approximately at frames to . senator cooper. in what frame does the photograph show or in what frame is it shown that president kennedy had moved his hands to his throat? mr. shaneyfelt. that shows on frame--it is clearer on frame , is the frame where you first see him, and frame . mr. dulles. how many frames between those two? mr. shaneyfelt. from to , eight. that would be a fraction of a second in time. that is less than half second. representative ford. it can be contended that based on these photographs of films that the first shot apparently was fired in frames to , in that area. mr. shaneyfelt. yes; i think you have to go back even to because of reaction times; we don't know reaction times. but i would say between and because at we have the president reacting. so, in that frames there it is behind the signboard, we can't see what is happening. mr. dulles. what frame first shows him with his hands at his throat? mr. shaneyfelt. , . mr. mccloy. , it is not too clear. it is much more pronounced in the next frame is where he puts his both hands to his throat, such as that. mr. dulles. and mrs. kennedy has apparently turned around and looking at him. mr. mccloy. one hand may be coming down from waving in . mr. dulles. that is his left hand there--no; it is his right hand, your right. his right hand. representative ford. then based on the mathematics of how quickly a second shot could be fired, the second shot would be fired in approximately what frame? if you assume it, the first shot is from to . mr. shaneyfelt. it would be to , down in there. representative ford. that would be the elapsed time of what? mr. shaneyfelt. two and a quarter seconds. representative ford. two and a quarter seconds. mr. shaneyfelt. that is the very quickest. mr. specter. on fixing the range from frames to , where the president was first struck, did you take frame because that was the first point after the president had passed out from under the oak tree? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; that is the first point from this, and although we are able to see in the films that there is no apparent reaction from the president from to , and as he disappears from behind the signboard, we cannot estimate the reaction time. mr. specter. when you say reaction time you mean? mr. shaneyfelt. of the president? mr. specter. reaction time from ---- representative ford. to ? mr. shaneyfelt. yes. representative ford. but there at frame , that is the first point at which the marksman had a clear shot after the president passed out from under the tree. mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. representative form. then you select frame as the outside limit of the shot which struck the president because that is where you first observe a reaction by the president when he comes out from behind the sign. mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. mr. dulles. what frames are blanked out because of the sign? mr. shaneyfelt. the president, the last we get any scene of him at all, and this is just the very top of his head is . mr. dulles. to what is blanked out? mr. shaneyfelt. . mr. dulles. to is blanked out? mr. shaneyfelt. yes, that is frames. mr. mccloy. he just begins to appear. mr. shaneyfelt. yes. mr. mccloy. i don't think if you assume the president was hit at and i don't think that is clear at all. i think it begins to get clear about that he had been hit, that the reaction really develops. but i think that it may very well be that he has not been hit because his hand isn't at his throat, he may be just moving from the position of waving. mr. dulles. but that is about a tenth of a second. mr. mccloy. yes; it is a very short time entirely, but i don't think the frame unequivocally shows the reaction to the bullet at . i think it does unequivocally show it at and . mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. mr. specter. perhaps an additional question on the clarity of the slide itself as a point of reaction would be in order for mr. shaneyfelt, and then, may i say parenthetically, we want to have the commission see these slides this afternoon. we have prepared them to show to you so that you can observe for yourself what we are bringing to you through the witness to give you a frame of reference and an orientation. mr. shaneyfelt, then what was your impression by frame , as you viewed it most recently this morning, with respect to a possible reaction on that frame made from the original zapruder film? mr. shaneyfelt. it is my feeling that at frames , and you are having a reaction. you have a split second there, and at the reaction is barely discernible, more discernible on the film and the slides than the reproduction you have here but it has to be considered in the light of the motion picture you see as he starts this reaction, and the reaction is by frame--in either the slides or pictures--is clearly apparent in , and barely apparent in . mr. specter. now, was frame selected as a situs for calculations on the possible construction that president kennedy was struck in the back at the first point unadjusted at which he emerged from the tree, to wit: frame , with an additional calculation of frames giving the approximately two and a quarter seconds for the firing of a second shot to determine through this one means whether there was time for the rifleman to have operated the bolt, assuming he made a shot at , and to have made another shot at the earliest possible time at . mr. shaneyfelt. that was the basis for the selection of frame , yes. mr. specter. now, going back just a moment, was frame selected as a basis for analysis as the first frame after because governor connally expressed the opinion when he viewed the frames that he thought he was hit by or at frame . mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. mr. specter. and was frame selected as a basis of analysis because that was one point at which a number of the viewers, including staff and agents of the fbi and secret service thought that might be the last frame at which governor connally had turned enough to the right to still take a shot and have the bullet pass through his body from the sixth floor window at the angle described in the medical reports and by his doctors. mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct on the basis of an undeflected path. that is the frame that the doctors selected as the frame beyond which he could not have received this shot and have it travel in the path that it reportedly traveled. mr. specter. was frame selected for analysis as being the absolutely last time, based on the observations of those whom you have described as seeing the films, that the governor could have conceivably taken a shot from the sixth floor window and have it pass through the body of the governor in the way described in the medical reports and by the governor's doctors? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. mr. specter. was the analysis, made on the ability of the governor to take the shot at each of the positions, based on the position he had at that particular frame in accordance with the amount of turn to the right which he had made at that particular time? mr. shaneyfelt. yes. mr. specter. was there a still photograph known as ap photograph, which was taken at the time of the assassination or a view seconds thereafter, studied by you and others in connection with the analysis that you have been describing? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; there was. mr. specter. was the simulated automobile placed in the same position that the presidential automobile was in when the photograph was made by the ap photographer, as closely as it could be positioned at the time of the reenactment? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. mr. specter. what commission exhibit number is attached to the photographs of that ap shot and the reenactment picture? mr. shaneyfelt. that is commission exhibit no. . mr. specter. would you describe what photographs appear then on commission exhibit no. ? mr. shaneyfelt. on commission exhibit no. , the top photograph is a photograph purportedly made by an ap photographer shortly after one of the shots. it depicts the side of the governor's head, the left side of the governor's head, his ear is visible, he has turned considerably. it depicts the president's hand touching his lapels, and a portion of the president's face. secret service agents on the followup car are seen also. the texas school book building in the background. the reenactment photograph was made after positioning the car by looking at the photograph, based on the position of the car as related to the lane line in the street, as related to the position of the building, the column of the building and so on to reestablish the location. we also reestablish in reenactment the position of the agent taking governor connally's position in the car used in the reenactment and the position of president kennedy to closely approximate the actual photograph made by the ap, associated press. this was then studied, the car in this position was then studied, from the zapruder position, and was determined to be frame . mr. specter. was an exhibit prepared then on frame ? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. mr. specter. what commission exhibit number is affixed to frame ? mr. shaneyfelt. exhibit no. . mr. specter. does that have the same layout of photographs and measurements as on frames , and those which preceded them. mr. shaneyfelt. yes; it has. it has the zapruder photographs, the matching reenactment photograph, and the photograph through the rifle scope along with the measurements and the angles. mr. specter. on the ap photograph shown on commission exhibit no. , what reaction, if any, do you observe by the secret service agents on the followup car? mr. shaneyfelt. the secret service agents on the right-hand side of the followup car are looking back and to their right. the one to the front on the left-hand side of the car is looking generally toward the president. the one in back of him on the left fender is looking slightly to his right. representative ford. what is the distance on frame between the president and the rifle? mr. shaneyfelt. the distance to the rifle in the window is feet. this is frame , which is well past the signboard, well past which is the last frame we considered. mr. mccloy. well past the first evidence of reaction? mr. shaneyfelt. yes. mr. mccloy. on the part of the president to a shot. mr. shaneyfelt. well past, and past the point in the film where governor connally states he has been hit. mr. specter. was that simulated car placed in any other position to duplicate still a subsequent frame? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; the frame no. , which is the frame that records the shot to the president's head, was recorded as frame and was reestablished during reenactment. mr. specter. what commission number has been affixed to frame ? mr. shaneyfelt. commission exhibit no. . mr. specter. is this exhibit organized in a somewhat different fashion from the prior frame exhibits? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. mr. specter. will you start with the photograph in the upper left-hand corner and describe for the commissioners, please, each photograph or picture which appears thereon and what it represents? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; i might state first that all of the other photographs were reestablished on the basis of the zapruder film using reference points in the background of the pictures. as is apparent here from the photograph of the zapruder frame there are no reference points. there is just a grassy plot. so there is no reference point on which we can reestablish the position of the car in the roadway. for this reason it was necessary to use the nix film of the head shot and the muchmore film of the head shot to establish this position in the road. the right-hand photograph represents frame from the nix film, and is the frame that depicts the shot to the head. we used mr. nix's camera and a print of this picture and stood in the previously determined position of mr. nix when he took his photographs, and had them roll the car down to a position so that the president's head was directly under the point where mr. zapruder is standing on the projection. mr. specter. you are describing the photograph on which side---- mr. shaneyfelt. on the--- mr. specter. of the viewer. mr. shaneyfelt. on the upper left-hand side. mr. mccloy. i think you said right. mr. shaneyfelt. the upper left-hand photograph is the photograph from the--taken from the frame of the nix film. the photograph on the right, upper right, is the photograph taken at the reenactment from the position where mr. nix was standing. we then proceeded over to the point that we had established as the position of mrs. muchmore, and using frame , which is a frame in her film depicting the shot to the head, and using the steps and their relation to the president and the objects in the background in relation to the president as shown in this lower left-hand photograph, which is the muchmore frame , we reestablished, we checked the position we had placed the car in, based on the nix photographs, and found that it conformed and checked out as being in a closely accurate position. this is the basis used for establishing the position of the car. after we had established that, through the nix and muchmore films, we then checked it against the zapruder photograph, which is the second from the top on the left of commission exhibit no. , frame , which shows the explosion from the top of the president's head. just to the right of that second picture down from the right, is the photograph made at the reenactment from zapruder's position. we know from studying the films that just two or three frames before frame we can see a little bit of yellow along the curb, and this checks out because along this area of the photograph from the zapruder position of the reenactment is a yellow strip. mr. specter. when you say this area you are referring to the yellow area which appears on the left-hand curb immediately to the rear of the simulated car? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct, and this, therefore, checks out this as being a fairly accurate position for the car in frame . this photograph then, the third down on the left, is a photograph through the telescope of the rifle of the car positioned in frame . mr. mccloy. would you read off those dimensions from that? mr. shaneyfelt. the dimensions from the surveyor on frame of the distance from the wound mark on the president's stand-in to station c is . feet. distance to the rifle in the window is . feet. the angle to rifle in window is ° ´ and this is based on the horizontal. distance to the overpass is . feet, the angle to the overpass is ° ´. mr. specter. what would the angle be considering the adjustment on the angle of the street? mr. shaneyfelt. it would be less ° or ° ´, approximately. mr. specter. when you say approximately is that because the adjustment is somewhat greater than °? mr. shaneyfelt. yes. mr. specter. how much is it exactly, if you know? mr. shaneyfelt. it is . . it is almost . mr. specter. three degrees nine minutes? mr. shaneyfelt. three degrees nine minutes, i am sorry. mr. dulles. would you have to make a similar adjustment to the overpass? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; because the angle to the overpass is based on the horizontal. the overpass, you would have to add the ° ´. mr. dulles. from the overpass, is this an angle up or angle down? mr. shaneyfelt. this is an angle down. mr. dulles. so it is an angle down in both cases? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. mr. specter. when you say that you are reducing the angle of ° ´ by ° ´ to an angle of ° ´, is that as the shot passes through the body of the president? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. it is at that point. mr. specter. how was the speed of the camera ascertained, mr. shaneyfelt? mr. shaneyfelt. we obtained from mr. zapruder, mr. nix, mrs. muchmore; their cameras for examination, and in the fbi laboratory exposed film in all three cameras, aiming, focusing the camera on a clock with a large sweep-second hand. we then ran the camera at the speed and conditions as described by the people who used the cameras. we ran through several tests of film, and then after the film was developed it was studied under magnification, and frames were counted for a period of to seconds or for the full running time, and averages were taken. mr. zapruder has stated that his camera was fully wound. most of the others have stated their cameras were fully wound, so we were able to more or less eliminate the very slow time that occurs when the cameras are approximately run down, and all of these things were taken into consideration and were averaged. the zapruder camera was found to run at an average speed of . frames per second. the nix and muchmore cameras were both found around . frames per second. mr. specter. were you able to ascertain the speed of the presidential limousine at the time of the assassination? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; because we were able to determine the speed of the camera, and thereby accurately determine the length of time it takes for a specific number of frames to run through the camera at this . frames per second, and having located these frame positions in the street, we took the farthest distance point we had in the zapruder film which was frame through frame . this was found to run elapsed time from the film standpoint which runs at . frames a second, runs for a total of . seconds. this distance is . feet, and this can be calculated then to . miles per hour. mr. specter. is that a constant average speed or does that speed reflect any variations in the movement of the car? mr. shaneyfelt. that is the overall average from to . it does not mean that it was traveling constantly at . , because it was more than likely going faster in some areas and slightly slower in some areas. it is only an average speed over the entire run. mr. dulles. over the entire run between what points? mr. shaneyfelt. between frame and . mr. dulles. yes; but where, could you place that on that chart, for example? mr. shaneyfelt. yes. mr. dulles. and describe the points? mr. shaneyfelt. this is frame which is the frame where they have just gone under the tree, to frame which is the shot to the head. so that it is that distance there which is . feet. mr. specter. in referring to those points, will you specify what exhibit number you are referring to there? mr. shaneyfelt. that is---- mr. dulles. i wonder if we could mark those points on that exhibit? mr. specter. of course, mr. dulles. that is commission exhibit no. , is it not, mr. shaneyfelt? mr. shaneyfelt. yes. mr. specter. will you take the first point mr. dulles has referred to and mark it as point x. i think we already have some letter designations in the early part of the alphabet. mr. mccloy. where is that point? what significance is that point? the first point? mr. specter. this frame ---- mr. mccloy. yes. mr. specter. is the first frame we have on the zapruder film. mr. dulles. it is only to get the speed and distance here. mr. mccloy. it has no relation to any shots. mr. dulles. no relation to shots. speed and distance. mr. specter. it is the first frame we have where the marksman has his last clear shot of the back of the president's neck before it passes under the tree without adjustment. is that correct, mr. shaneyfelt? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. what letter designations did you want? mr. specter. mark , frame , with the letter designation x, if you will, please. mr. shaneyfelt. and ? mr. specter. with the letter designation y. mr. mccloy. the record ought to show the two points are the point which you merely calculated the speed at which the car is going, isn't that right? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. mr. mccloy. yes. mr. dulles. between those two points the car went at an average speed of . miles an hour? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. between point x and y on exhibit no. the speed of the car was determined to be an average speed of . miles per hour. mr. dulles. how long did the car take to go that distance, do you know, translated into time? mr. shaneyfelt. . seconds. mr. dulles. . seconds. mr. specter. what motion pictures, if any, were taken during the reenactment? mr. shaneyfelt. during the reenactment the black-and-white photographs were made from zapruder's position with a speedgraphic camera and we also took motion pictures with mr. zapruder's camera from zapruder's position with the car in the fixed locations as they were established with the car just stationary in those locations. after establishing all those points and making these film records of it, we then had the car proceed along that elm street route at approximately miles per hour, and filmed it with mr. zapruder's camera loaded with color film from mr. zapruder's position and simultaneously photographed it with mr. nix's camera from mr. nix's position, and mrs. muchmore's camera from mrs. muchmore's position, and this was done twice. (off the record.) mr. specter. the last question was about what movies and stills you took? mr. shaneyfelt. we haven't discussed them all yet. mr. specter. were any other movies taken or photographs taken in addition to those which you heretofore described? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; after positioning the car in the street at the specific locations and making the movies with the zapruder, nix, and muchmore cameras with the car running at miles an hour on the route, i then went to the sixth-floor window and mounted the camera on the rifle, and photographs were made with black and white film motion pictures of the car in the fixed positions from frame through frame positions . the car was stopped at each position. the individuals and the car were positioned by mr. gauthier on the street using the zapruder pictures to reposition the individuals in the car, and motion pictures were made of the car sitting in those various positions. after this the car was driven at miles an hour along the route and photographs were made through the rifle scope with a -mm. motion picture camera following the car as a target, as the car drove down the assassination route. following this, there were three runs made on black and white film. then color film was loaded in the camera and it was again photographed on color film, mm. with the car traveling at miles an hour and the scope of the rifle following the car as the target. this completed all the photographs that were made at the assassination site. mr. specter. was a subsequent photograph taken in the garage which you previously identified as the railway express garage? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. mr. specter. will you repeat, even though you have heretofore mentioned them, the angles between the spot on the back of president kennedy's neck which was marked with a white chalk mark and the muzzle of the rifle when the car was positioned at frame ? mr. shaneyfelt. the angle, based on the horizontal at frame , to the rifle in the window was ° ´. mr. specter. what was the comparable angle at frame ? mr. shaneyfelt. ° ´. mr. specter. so what would be the average angle then between those two points? mr. shaneyfelt. the average angle, allowing for the ° ´ street grade results in an average angle between frame and frame of ° ´ ´´. mr. specter. and that is the average angle from the muzzle to president kennedy as he sat in the car or president kennedy's stand-in as he sat in the car? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. to the wound entrance. mr. specter. is the average angle of ° ´ ´´ measured from the muzzle to the president's body as the president would be seated in the car? mr. shaneyfelt. that is out on the street in those frame positions, yes. it is measured to the point of the wound on the back of the president. mr. specter. i now hand you a photograph which has been marked as commission exhibit no. and ask you if you know who the photographer was? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; i took this photograph. mr. specter. when was that photograph taken? mr. shaneyfelt. it was taken sunday afternoon, may , . mr. specter. is there a white string which is apparent in the background of that photograph? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. mr. specter. what is the angle of declination of that string? mr. shaneyfelt. that string was placed along the wall by the surveyor at an angle of ° ´ ´´. mr. specter. did the surveyor make that placement in your presence? mr. shaneyfelt. he did. mr. specter. were the stand-ins for president kennedy and governor connally positioned in the same relative positions as those occupied by president kennedy and governor connally depicted in the zapruder films? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; these positions were approximately the position of the president and governor connally in the zapruder films in the area around frame as they go behind the signboard and as they emerge from the signboard. mr. specter. was the rod which is held in that photograph positioned at an angle as closely parallel to the white string as it could be positioned? mr. shaneyfelt. yes. mr. specter. and through what positions did that rod pass? mr. shaneyfelt. the rod passed through a position on the back of the stand-in for the president at a point approximating that of the entrance wound, exited along about the knot of the tie or the button of the coat or button of the shirt, and the end of the rod was inserted in the entrance hole on the back of governor connally's coat which was being worn by the stand-in for governor connally. mr. specter. and was governor connally's stand-in seated in the position where the point of exit would have been below the right nipple at the approximate point described by governor connally's doctors? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. senator cooper. may i ask a couple of questions? am i correct in assuming that you have made these determinations about the degree of the angle of the trajectory of the bullet at the time the president was struck, locating the position of the president in the car on the one hand, and the location of the rifle at the time the shots were fired? mr. shaneyfelt. the location of the wound, you mean the angle of the wound? senator cooper. yes. mr. shaneyfelt. the angle---- senator cooper. you had to establish the position of the president at the time the bullet struck him and the position of the rifle to make a determination about the degree of the angle of the direction? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. the positions in the car, their positions in the car, were based on the zapruder film. senator cooper. and you were able to determine what you think very accurately the position of the president in the car by the films that you have examined? mr. shaneyfelt. yes. senator cooper. then the factor then, which is not determinate, exactly, then is the location of the rifle, is that correct? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. senator cooper. upon what did you determine the location of the rifle--upon what factors? mr. shaneyfelt. the rifle was positioned in the sixth floor window of the book building where the cartridges were found, and was determined from information furnished by representatives of the commission. senator cooper. did you have information about the location of certain boxes that were seen--were found--at the window after the shooting occurred? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. yes; we had photographs of the boxes and we were advised, of the approximate position in the window and how far down the window was, the fact that some observers noted the rifle sticking out the window. senator cooper. i want to ask you--you did have information from the testimony of witnesses who said they saw the rifle protruding from the window? mr. shaneyfelt. we had this information furnished to us by the commission. senator cooper. and those facts, those locations were made known to you, and upon that evidence did you locate the rifle, in making these calculations? mr. shaneyfelt. that was the basis for the location of the rifle in all of our calculations. senator cooper. just one other question. assuming that there might have been some variation in the location of the rifle, length of the window, the breadth of the window, or that the rifle you used was held higher than the rifle might have been, would it have made--how much variation would it have made, in your judgement, in these calculations you made? mr. shaneyfelt. i don't believe that any movement of the rifle in that specific window would alter our calculations to any appreciable degree if you stay within that window, because our reenactment and our repositioning of the bodies in the car based on the photographs is subject to some variation, too, so we have variations throughout. and the variations from the position of the rifle at that particular window, i feel would be negligible. senator cooper. at every point where you made it, hypothetically, at least, made the determination that at a particular point the president was struck by a bullet, at that point the car and the president could be seen from the window? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. senator cooper. that is all i want to ask. mr. shaneyfelt. even under the tree you still could see the car and the president through the tree. mr. specter. mr. shaneyfelt, did the surveyors calculate the angle and distance from each position where the simulated car was stopped from the president to the triple underpass? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct. mr. specter. and are those figures reproduced in terms of distance to overpass, and angle to overpass on every one of the exhibits which also depict distance to window, referring to the sixth floor window, and angle to rifle in window? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; they do. they are on all the exhibits. mr. specter. now; is there any point on the overpass where the angle to the president's car or the angle to the president's stand-in seated in the simulated car, would permit a shot to be fired and to create the wound in the president's neck, which has an angle of decline of approximately °, based on the information furnished to you by the medical evidence, which we have asked you to assume, where that wound could be inflicted on the president's neck without regard to the point of entry? mr. shaneyfelt. no; none of the angles from the overpass are anywhere near °. they range from frame at a minus ´, from horizontal, to frame which is ° ´. none of them are even close to °. senator cooper. from the exhibit that has been introduced, showing the position of the car and the president at the time of the first shot--what was the distance from that point to the overpass? mr. shaneyfelt. the approximate location of the first shot---- senator cooper. frame what? mr. shaneyfelt. well, the exact frame has not been established, but it would be in the range from frames to . at frame , the distance to the handrail on a line of sight vision to the wound on the president is . feet. at frame the line of sight distance from the handrail of the overpass to the wound on the president is feet. senator cooper. what is the distance at those points to the window in the texas school book depository? mr. shaneyfelt. frame line of sight distance from the wound to the window is . feet. this distance to the overpass from there is . . on frame , line of sight to the window is . feet as opposed to the distance to the handrail on the overpass of . feet. senator cooper. did you yourself stand at the handrail of the overpass? mr. shaneyfelt. did i? senator cooper. yes. mr. shaneyfelt. no; i did not. mr. specter. what do you mean, mr. shaneyfelt, by line of sight? mr. shaneyfelt. straight line distance. representative ford. is that what is calculated by the surveyor? mr. shaneyfelt. that is correct; by mr. west. mr. specter. were there members of the testing teams that did go to the handrail at the triple underpass to make observations? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; there were. mr. specter. who were they? mr. shaneyfelt. i am not real sure. mr. specter. mr. chairman, those conclude my questions for mr. shaneyfelt. if it please the commission, i would like to call mr. frazier at this time. mr. mccloy. thank you very much, mr. shaneyfelt. testimony of robert a. frazier resumed mr. specter. would you state your full name for the record, please? mr. frazier. robert a. frazier. mr. specter. mr. frazier, you have appeared before to testify, but will you at this juncture again give us the outline of your occupation and experience? mr. frazier. yes; i am a special agent of the federal bureau of investigation assigned to the fbi laboratory, washington, d.c. i work in the firearms identification unit in the laboratory, making examinations of firearms, bullets, the effects of bullets, trajectories, firing tests, powder pattern tests, and various other types of examinations. (at this point senator cooper left the hearing room.) mr. specter. have you appeared heretofore before the commission to testify about examinations which you have conducted of the clothing worn by president kennedy, the clothing worn by governor connally, the examination of the presidential limousine and certain ballistics information? mr. frazier. yes; i have. mr. specter. did you participate in the onsite tests at dallas on may , ? mr. frazier. yes. mr. specter. what was your position during most of the time of those onsite tests? mr. frazier. i was stationed at the window on the sixth floor of the texas school book depository building at the southeast corner of the building. mr. specter. how far was that window open at the time the tests were being conducted? mr. frazier. i estimated it as approximately one-third. it was somewhat less than halfway open. mr. specter. is that the distance depicted on commission exhibit no. , which has heretofore been introduced in evidence? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. specter. is the distance open on that window about the same as that which you had it open at the time these tests were run? mr. frazier. yes; i would say that this is very close. the window was placed according to information already furnished to the commission as to how much it had been opened at that time. mr. specter. did you handle the mannlicher-carcano rifle during the course of the onsite tests? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. specter. the rifle previously identified as commission exhibit no. ? mr. frazier. yes, sir; i did. mr. specter. at what position--what was the basis for your positioning of that rifle during those tests? mr. frazier. to position the rifle, we selected boxes of the same size and contour as boxes shown in a photograph or rather in two photographs, reportedly taken by the police department at dallas shortly after the assassination. we placed these boxes in their relative position in front of the window spacing them from left to right, according to the photographs which were furnished to us, and also placing them up against the window, with one of them resting on the window ledge as it was shown in the photographs. mr. specter. in addition to the placement of the boxes, were there any other guides which you had for reconstructing the position of the rifle to the way which you believed it to have been held on november , ? mr. frazier. yes, sir; there was one physical obstruction in the building which could not be moved consisting of two vertical pipes located just at the left side of the sixth floor window. these prevented me or anyone who was shooting from that window from moving any further to the left. the position of the rifle, of course, had to be such that it could be sighted out through the window, using the telescopic sight high enough above the window ledge so that the muzzle of the weapon would clear the window ledge, and low enough in position so that the bottom of the window, which was only partially raised, would not interfere with a view through the telescopic sight, which is approximately inches higher than the actual bore of the weapon. mr. specter. did you position the rifle further, based on information provided to you concerning the testimony of certain eyewitnesses at the assassination scene concerning what they observed? mr. frazier. yes, sir; we attempted to put the muzzle of the weapon sufficiently far out the window so it would have been visible from below. mr. specter. mr. frazier, referring to commission exhibit no. , did you view through the sight that depicted in "photograph through rifle scope" on the positioning of the presidential limousine or the car to simulate the limousine at position a? mr. frazier. yes, sir; this would be the first position that an individual in that sixth floor window could sight at the car due to the interference of the window ledge of the building and the fact that the angle downward is limited by the partially lowered window. mr. specter. i now hand you commission exhibit no. and ask you if you had the view depicted on the "photograph through the rifle scope" shown on that exhibit? mr. frazier. yes, sir; this exhibit no. is frame , and is the position at which i had the car stopped just before the spot, indicating the entrance wound on the back of the president's stand-in, passed into the foliage of the tree. mr. specter. i now hand you exhibits nos. , , and , and ask you if you had the view on each of those depicted in the "photograph through rifle scope"? mr. frazier. yes, sir; commission no. represented by frame is the adjusted position to account for the fact that the presidential stand-in on may was actually inches higher in the air above the street than the president would have been in the presidential limousine. mr. dulles. would you explain to us simply how you made those adjustments? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. dulles. i mean how did you get him down inches as a practical matter. mr. frazier. they had marked on the back of the president's coat the location of the wound, according to the distance from the top of his head down to the hole in his back as shown in the autopsy figures. they then held a ruler, a tape measure up against that, both the back of the presidential stand-in-and the back of the governor's stand-in, and looking through the scope you could estimate the -inch distance down on the automobile. you could not actually see it on the president's back. but could locate that -inch distance as a point which we marked with tape on the automobile itself, both for the presidential and the governor's stand-in. mr. dulles. thank you. mr. frazier. continuing with commission exhibit no. , represented by frame---- mr. mccloy. hold that around so i can see it. mr. frazier. represented by frame , this is the first or rather the only position through the foliage of the tree at which a person from the sixth floor could get a clear shot at the back of the president, and i had the car stopped at this position and then we determined that this was frame from the zapruder films. mr. dulles. there are no heavy limbs in there of any kind, are there---- mr. frazier. no, sir. mr. dulles. that would obstruct a bullet? mr. frazier. no, sir. the tree--it is a live oak tree which retains its leaves all year around and the limbs at that point are relatively small. mr. dulles. all right. mr. specter. did you compare the appearance of the foliage on the pictures taken by the secret service, about which inspector kelley earlier testified, with the appearance of the foliage on may ? mr. frazier. yes; i did. mr. specter. what was that comparison? mr. frazier. they are so nearly identical that you could not really pick out any difference between the foliage and the photograph taken previously in november. in commission exhibit no. , which is marked frame , this is the adjusted position to which the car was moved to accommodate the -inch distance at which the actual wound in the president would have been located had the car been the actual presidential limousine rather than the stand-in car. mr. specter. were you standing, seated, or kneeling at the time when these photographs were taken and the sighting of the rifle was made by you. mr. frazier. i was actually sitting on a carton with my left elbow resting on the boxes stacked in front of the window. mr. specter. did that position represent to you the most likely position which the rifleman assumed on november , , based upon the positioning of the various boxes? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. specter. and the eyewitness accounts as to how far the rifle protruded? mr. frazier. yes, sir; it was. mr. specter. now, in all of the frames that you have described up to now, did you position the automobile on the street or give instructions over the radio as to where the automobile ought to be stopped for those various sightings? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. specter. i now hand you commission exhibits nos. and , and ask you if you observed the views depicted in the "photograph through rifle scope" on each of those exhibits? mr. frazier. on commission exhibit no. , also marked frame no. , the car was moved forward under the tree to the point where the spot on the presidential stand-in's back just became visible beyond the foliage of the tree. i had the car stopped at that point so that this photograph could be made there. on commission exhibit no. , also marked frame , we have the photograph made at the adjusted position to accommodate the -inch difference in height between the stand-in and the actual position of the wound above the street and on the president's body. mr. specter. what was the alinement of president kennedy's stand-in with governor connally's stand-in at frames and ? mr. frazier. they both are in direct alinement with the telescopic sight at the window. the governor is immediately behind the president in the field of view. was that your question? mr. specter. yes. mr. frazier. alinement of people? mr. specter. yes, sir. mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. specter. could governor connally have taken a shot in the range of frames to which would have traversed his body with the entry and exit points being approximately what they were shown to be through the medical records? preliminarily, let me ask you if, for the record, you had seen or had made available to you the contents of the medical records showing the point of entry on the back of the governor and the point of exit on the front side of his chest? mr. frazier. no, sir; i don't recall having seen the medical testimony. however, information has been furnished to me by commission members as to the relative positions on the back and the front of the governor. mr. specter. have you in addition had an opportunity to examine personally the clothing worn by the governor consisting of his jacket and shirt? mr. frazier. yes; i have. mr. specter. based on the governor's position then in frames and , was he lined up so that a bullet fired from the sixth floor would have passed through his body in about the way that the entry and exit holes were described to you? mr. frazier. yes; i would say that this could have happened at these two frames. however, this would assume that the path of the bullet through the governor's body was the same as the path of the bullet before it struck, that is, there was no appreciable deflection in the body itself. since i have no actual technical evidence available to me that there was no deflection, i can only say that it is a possibility under the circumstances as set up in these photographs. mr. specter. you would state that as a possibility based upon the observations you made and the facts provided to you? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. specter. all right. i now hand you commission exhibits nos. and and ask you if you saw the photograph as depicted on the "photograph through rifle sight" on those exhibits? mr. frazier. yes, sir. commission exhibit no. is marked frame , and the photograph through the scope is the same field which i saw looking through the telescope on may , . this is similarly true of commission exhibit no. -- being frame no. . mr. specter. i now show you exhibits nos. and and ask you if the picture shown on "photograph through rifle scope" is that which you observed at the times those pictures were taken. mr. frazier. yes, sir. this exhibit no. is also marked frame no. , and represents the relative positions of the president's and governor's stand-in on may . commission exhibit no. , which is marked frame , also represents the positions of the presidential and governor's stand-in as i saw it from the sixth floor on that date. mr. specter. i now hand you exhibits nos. , , and and ask if you saw the pictures or if your view was the same as "photograph through rifle scope" depicted on those exhibits? mr. frazier. yes; they are. in each case commission exhibit no. , which is marked frame , commission exhibit no. , which is also marked frame , and commission exhibit no. , which is also marked frame . in the "photographs through the scope" the individuals representing the president and the governor are as they were positioned on may . mr. specter. now, assuming certain factors, mr. frazier, to wit: that the president and governor connally were seated in an open automobile in the approximate positions taken by the president's stand-in and the governor's stand-in during the onsite tests, that a bullet passed through president kennedy entering at a velocity of , feet per second striking centimeters below the right mastoid process and centimeters to the left of the right acromion process which is the tip of the right shoulder, that the bullet passed through a fascia channel, hitting no bones, and proceeded in a straight line, exiting through the lower one-third of his neck, passing out of his shirt at the position which you observed personally from your inspection of the president's shirt, nicking the knot on the president's tie in the way you observed from your examination of that tie; do you have an opinion as to whether it is probable, based on the fact which i have asked you to assume, that a bullet could have gone through the president and missed the interior of the limousine and all of its occupants between frames and ? mr. frazier. i can give you my opinion based on this reconstruction, as i understand your question. all of these things refer to the reconstruction and assuming particularly that the path of the projectile to the president was also the same path, the same angle as it went through his body and then on, and in that connection, yes. in my opinion the bullet had to strike in the car, either the car itself or an occupant of the car. mr. specter. and is that a probable opinion of yours based on what you saw during the tests and the facts i have asked you to assume? mr. frazier. yes; it is, and in fact, i think it is rather--it is obvious when you look at the photographs themselves that the crosshair of the telescopic sight actually would give you the point of impact of the bullet if the weapon is sighted in and if there is no change in the line of sight the bullet had to strike the cars shown in each of these photographs which is frame on this end of this series, and frame on the other end of the series. it shows that there would be no chance for the bullet to miss the car at all if it had no deviation in its--if it had no deflection in its path. mr. specter. did you have an opportunity to examine the car shortly after the assassination? mr. frazier. yes; i did, on the early morning of november , . mr. specter. the record will show you have testified about it heretofore, but will you again state at this juncture whether or not you found any indication within the car that the interior of the car was struck by a missile proceeding at a high velocity such as , feet per second? mr. frazier. no, sir; we found none. we examined in particular the passenger's section, the rear seat area of the back of the automobile clear up to the back of the rear seat, the rear seat itself, the floorboards and the back of the front seat, the backs primarily of the jump seats, and other areas in the front of the car, the windshield and the chrome and the front hoods and fenders and sides of the automobile and we found no evidence of a bullet impact having those characteristics you mentioned. mr. specter. did you also examine the windshield of the car, interior and exterior? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. specter. and the chrome of the car on the interior and the exterior? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. specter. did you also examine the front portion of the presidential limousine? mr. frazier. yes; we did. that portion, the dashboard below the windshield and the dashboard in the area immediately under that were particularly examined, because the rest of it would have been shielded from a shot due to the height of the dashboard and the height of the back of the front seat. mr. specter. did any of that area examined disclose any impact of such a missile? mr. frazier. no, sir; not of a high velocity. only the lead area smeared on the inside of the windshield from a relatively light object which struck the inside, and did not even break the inside surface of the glass, and then there was a possible bullet impact area at the top of the chrome to the right of the rearview mirror. this was made by a projectile not having the weight or velocity of a whole bullet moving at, in the range of a thousand to , feet per second or more. mr. specter. based on the position of governor connally as depicted in the zapruder slides at frames and , could he have taken a shot, assuming the firing point to have been the sixth floor of the texas school book depository building, which entered and exited from his body in accordance with the known medical evidence? mr. frazier. i have not made a very thorough study of the zapruder film which i understand you mentioned in this particular question with reference to the zapruder film itself. mr. specter. we will take it with reference to the reconstructed positions of governor connally in frames and , which you have testified you did observe at the time the measurements and photographs were taken. mr. frazier. i would say, yes, under the conditions that i mentioned previously, that the reconstruction would represent the governor as it was in november, then he could have been struck anywhere in that frame area of from to . mr. specter. how about the same question in frames , , and thereafter? mr. frazier. there is only one position beyond frame at which the governor could have been struck according to the information furnished to me and from my examination of his clothing that he was struck near the right sleeve seam and that the bullet came out through the inside pocket of his jacket. at frame the governor is, as i saw it from the window on that date, turned to the front to such an extent that he could not have been hit at that particular frame. mr. specter. why not, mr. frazier? mr. frazier. the angle through his body, as i measured it on the coat is approximately ° from the right toward the left. on may in our reconstruction i found that the governor had turned farther to the front from a position slightly facing the right than he was in at frame . he had turned back to the front so that a shot which struck him in this shoulder in the back---- mr. specter. indicating the right shoulder? mr. frazier. indicating the right shoulder near the seam would have come out much further to his right than the actual exit hole described to me as being just under the right nipple. mr. specter. how would the bullet have passed through his body based on his position as shown in frame ? mr. frazier. in frame , which is commission exhibit no. , the governor in our reconstruction, according to the zapruder film was also facing too far, too much towards the front. the angle of the bullet through his body, assuming no deflection, would not have corresponded to the angle through his clothing or according to the information furnished from the medical examiners. mr. specter. how about the governor's position in frame ? mr. frazier. in frame the governor again could not have been shot, assuming no deflection of the bullet prior to its striking his body, from the window on the sixth floor because he is turned in this case too far to the right. now, this obviously indicates that the governor in between frame and frame has turned from facing completely forward in the car around to the right to the point that a bullet entering his back on the right shoulder area would have exited in my opinion somewhere from his left chest area rather than from his right chest area. mr. specter. how about the governor's position at frame ? mr. frazier. in frame a similar situation exists in that the governor, as represented by his stand-in in our reconstruction, has turned too far to the right, even further than frame , so that in frame represented by commission exhibit no. , he again could not have been hit by a bullet which came from the window on the sixth floor and struck him in an undeflected fashion and passed through his body undeflected. mr. specter. how about frame ? mr. frazier. on frame which is in commission exhibit no. the governor is turned again too far to the right, and the same situation would hold true as to what we saw in frame . the bullet would have exited too far on his left side, provided there was no deflection between the window and the point of exit from the governor's body. mr. specter. mr. frazier, based on the angles, distances, and speeds of the car and bullet in this situation, what lead would a marksman have to give to strike the moving target, allowing for all of those factors? mr. frazier. the lead would be approximately the same for all of these positions represented by your frame or rather your commission exhibit no. , which is frame , all the way up to frame which i don't have, the commission's exhibit is no. on frame , a lead of inches above the point of impact would be sufficient to account for the movement of the car during the flight of the bullet. the fact that the same lead would be necessary at each place is because at the closer frame numbers, the lower frame numbers, , , , and so forth, there is a relatively steep downward angle beginning at °, whereas the last shot, the downward angle is approximately ° or °, in that neighborhood. just one thing more, it would require less apparent elevation of the crosshair over the point of impact at the distant target to allow for a further movement of the car of approximately feet at the point where the head shot occurred. so the lead would be constant between . inches above the point of impact to . inches above the point of impact. mr. dulles. have you asked the witness--i was studying these frame pictures--at about what frame he thinks the body of governor connally would have been in a position to receive a bullet that would go through the body with this trajectory? mr. specter. yes; i believe i did. mr. dulles. i wasn't quite clear. mr. frazier. i testified that it would have been in position from anywhere from frames to . however, i cannot limit it to because at that point the car goes back under the foliage and you can't actually see clearly enough. mr. dulles. between frames and ? mr. frazier. yes, sir; approximately frame to approximately frame . mr. dulles. thank you. mr. specter. looking at exhibit no. , frame , on the view shown on the "photograph through rifle scope," is that the way you saw it at the time of the reconstruction, when the car was in that position as shown in that exhibit? mr. frazier. yes; it is. mr. specter. at this time i move for the admission into evidence of commission exhibits nos. through which constitute all of the photographs referred to by mr. shaneyfelt and mr. frazier during their testimony. (commission exhibits nos. through were marked for identification, and received in evidence.) mr. mccloy. they may be admitted. mr. specter. that completes the questioning. mr. mccloy. as i get it, mr. frazier, what you are saying is there is only a certain point at which the bullet could pass through the president, could have hit mr. connally, and that is at a point when he is not sitting full face forward and at a point when he is not too far turned around. mr. frazier. that is exactly right. mr. mccloy. somewhere when he is turning to the right. mr. frazier. he was placed approximately ° to the right. mr. mccloy. to the right. mr. frazier. that is ° according to my examination of his clothing but i don't know the exact figures of the angle through his body. mr. specter. i have one additional question. mr. frazier, assuming the factors which i have asked you to accept as true for the purposes of expressing an opinion before, as to the flight of the bullet and the straight line penetration through the president's body, considering the point of entry and exit, do you have an opinion as to what probably happened during the interval between frames and as to whether the bullet which passed through the neck of the president entered the governor's back. mr. frazier. there are a lot of probables in that. first, we have to assume there is absolutely no deflection in the bullet from the time it left the barrel until the time it exited from the governor's body. that assumes that it has gone through the president's body and through the governor's body. i feel that physically this would have been possible because of the positions of the presidential stand-in and the governor's stand-in, it would be entirely possible for this to have occurred. however, i myself don't have any technical evidence which would permit me to say one way or the other, in other words, which would support it as far as my rendering an opinion as an expert. i would certainly say it was possible but i don't say that it probably occurred because i don't have the evidence on which to base a statement like that. mr. specter. what evidence is it that you would be missing to assess the probabilities? mr. frazier. we are dealing with hypothetical situations here of placing people in cars from photographs which are not absolutely accurate. they are two dimensional. they don't give you the third dimension. they are as accurate as you can accurately place the people but it isn't absolute. secondly, we are dealing with the fact that we don't know whether, i don't know technically, whether there was any deviation in the bullet which struck the president in the back, and exited from his front. if there were a few degrees deviation then it may affect my opinion as to whether or not it would have struck the governor. we are dealing with an assumed fact that the governor was in front of the president in such a position that he could have taken. so when you say would it probably have occurred, then you are asking me for an opinion, to base my opinion on a whole series of hypothetical facts which i can't substantiate. mr. mccloy. let me put it to you in another way--from your best judgment about what you know about this thing, what was the sequence of the shots, and who was hit, and when in relation to---- mr. frazier. i will say this--i have looked at the film and have seen evidence of one shot occurring which struck the president in the head. that was at frame . mr. specter. frame ? yes. mr. frazier. commission exhibit no. . i have seen evidence in the film of the president with both arms up clutching at his throat, and having examined his clothing and having seen the hole in his shirt and his back, i might assume that he is clutching his throat because a bullet exited from his throat. i don't have the technical knowledge to substantiate that. there was no metal on this hole in front, and there is no way for me to say from my own examination that it actually was a bullet hole. nowhere else in this film have i seen any indication of a bullet striking. mr. specter. the president? mr. frazier. either the president or the governor. because i do not know the reaction time which would exist from the time a bullet struck until someone made a move. it may be a half second, it may be a full second. it may be a tenth of a second. it depends upon the intensity of the pain, and actually what happened. and therefore, in looking at the film you can't say a bullet struck right here because he started to move his hands here. it may have been a full second, a half second behind that spot. i would say that two bullets at least struck in the automobile. i cannot say that three bullets did not strike in the automobile from my examination, but it appears and due to the reconstruction at dallas, it appears that if the one bullet did strike the president, then it landed in the automobile, and if it landed in the automobile, and we found no evidence of it having hit the car itself, then i say it is possible that it struck the governor. now, as to the sequence of the shots, that one obviously was before the head shot. if there was a third shot fired, i could not tell you from anything i know whether it was the first, the second, or the third. mr. mccloy. it is possible, according to your analysis of it, that the first shot could have gone through the back of the president and exited through the front of his neck, and the second shot could have hit connally, and the third shot could have hit the president. mr. dulles. where would the first shot have gone under that thesis? mr. mccloy. i just say i don't know where it could have gone. mr. frazier. from what i know from my examination that is true, because i have seen bullets strike small twigs, small objects, and ricochet for no apparent reason except they hit and all the pressure is on one side and it turns the bullet and it goes off at an angle. if there was no deviation from the time the bullet left the rifle barrel until the time it exited from the governor's body, then the physical setup exists for it to have gone through the president, and through the governor. mr. specter. you mean from the time it exited through the governor's body? mr. frazier. that is right. otherwise, you have nothing to base a conclusion upon. if you have deviation anywhere along the line then you both affect the position at which the governor could have been shot--for instance--if the bullet entered the governor's back and immediately took a ° leftward angle, then the governor could have been shot when he was facing straightforward in the automobile. now, i can't tell that, and therefore i can only say that my opinion must be based on your assumption that there was not a deviation of the bullet through the president's body and no deviation of the bullet through the governor's body, no deflection. on that basis then you can say that it is possible for both of them to have been hit with one bullet. representative ford. does that opinion rule out the possibility or cast doubt on the possibility of a third shot? mr. frazier. it does not rule out the possibility of a third shot. no, sir; because i can only base my opinion on what i saw and my own experience, and that is that a bullet could have struck the president, if it had deflection in the president's body it could have, and he happened to be in a certain position in the car which would affect the angle, the bullet may have exited from the automobile. representative ford. as i understood your assumptions there was no deviation and no deflection, and i thought i phrased my question based on your opinion under those facts, it might rule out a third shot. mr. dulles. do you mean rule out a third shot entirely or just rule out a third shot hitting in the car? representative ford. rule out a third shot in one instance or establish the possibility of a third shot that missed everything. mr. frazier. as i understand your question i am now assuming these various factors to exist, that there was no deviation, no change in the path of the bullet. representative ford. the bullet went through the president and through the governor. mr. frazier. yes; then under that premise and the reconstruction showing the position of the car with reference to the path of the bullet, then it is entirely possible that these two individuals were hit with one bullet and that there was not another bullet that struck in the car other than the one that struck the president in the back of the head and exited from his head. representative ford. under these assumptions there is a possibility there was not a third shot or there was a third shot that missed everything. mr. frazier. that missed everything; yes, sir. mr. dulles. is there any way of correlating the time of the shot with the position of the car so as to know whether possibly the first shot was fired before the car was out from the tree and it might have hit a branch of the tree and be deflected so it didn't hit the car? if he had fired too soon. i guess it is impossible. mr. frazier. it is possible, i don't have any evidence to support it one way or the other. mr. dulles. yes. mr. frazier. as to whether or not a limb of the tree may have deflected one shot. however, i think it should be remembered that the frame is just as he exits under the tree; from there to frame to where the president shows a reaction is only a matter of second. he is under the tree in frames until frame , which is about seconds. so somewhere in that -second interval there may have been a shot--which deflected from a limb or for some other reason and was never discovered. representative ford. mr. chairman, may i return to questions that i was asking mr. frazier? mr. mccloy. yes. representative ford. again making those same assumptions we made a moment ago, is there any evidence that a third shot hit the car or any occupant of the car? mr. frazier. assuming all those assumptions we had before; no. i would say that, and again i have not the technical evidence to back this up one way or the other but you make these assumptions and i would say under those conditions only two shots hit the occupants of the car because the one through the president had to cause connally's wound otherwise it would have struck somewhere else in the car and it did not strike somewhere else. therefore, it had to go through governor connally. and the second shot had to strike the president in the head. mr. mccloy. how about these shots you spoke of, one of the fragments, at least, hitting the glass, the windshield and one possibly hitting the chrome. was there anything, could it have been any fragmentation of the first shot which didn't hit, the first shot that hit the president, let's say, but didn't hit connally, might that again make the possibility of three shots, one of them hitting the president and fragmenting as you indicated, and a second one hitting connally, and the third one hitting the president for the lethal shot. mr. frazier. under that circumstance the bullet exiting from the president would have had to strike something else in the car to break it up. mr. mccloy. break it up inasmuch as it was broken up? mr. frazier. yes, sir; there was no evidence that the bullet which exited from the president was in any but complete condition, that is there was only one hole through the shirt, there was only one hole through his coat or shirt actually and the testimony of the medical examiners was that it made a relatively straight path through the body. mr. specter. that completes my questions of mr. frazier. mr. dulles. could i ask just one more question? mr. specter. yes, sir; mr. dulles. mr. dulles. there has been a certain amount of testimony indicating there was a longer pause between the report of the first shot or what is believed to be the report, explosion of the first shot and the second and third shots, that is not absolutely unanimous but i would say it is something like to or something of that kind, what would you say, to , to ? (discussion off the record.) mr. dulles. is it possible that the assassin attempted to fire when the car was behind the tree or going into the tree, that that shot went astray, and that that accounts for, if there was a longer delay between one and two, that would account for it, and then the lethal shots were fired or the wound, the one shot that was fired that hit the two and then the lethal shot was fired immediately after. it is speculation. mr. mccloy. i think that must be speculation because there certainly is conflicting evidence as to the intervals between the first and the second shot and the second and the third shot. mr. dulles. i think if you will read the testimony you will find it at least to except for the people in the car. mr. mccloy. maybe, but what weight do you give these, i don't know. i think that is quite possible that a bullet was deflected by that tree, but there is no evidence whatever of the bullet landing anywhere in the street or among the crowd. and yet there seems to be no doubt at all that three shots were fired. mr. dulles. that seems to be the evidence. mr. mccloy. at least three shots were fired, and probably three shots were fired because of the three shells that were found. mr. dulles. three shells? mr. mccloy. yes. mr. dulles. we probably won't settle that today. mr. frazier. i don't know how to answer that question except possibly to go back to the frame numbers of the zapruder film and you will find they are about equally spaced from frame just before the tree to frame, say, , which is just a few frames after the tree, that is or approximately frames, from that point. but from frame to the last shot of frame is and , frames, so there is more time between the second and third than the first and second, assuming that the second one actually occurred and that it occurred at about the middle of that interval. mr. mccloy. in the middle of that frame, yes. i think that is pretty persuasive. mr. dulles. i didn't quite follow that. mr. mccloy. there seemed to be more frames between, going backwards, between the third shot, that is between the time that---- mr. dulles. the first shot went astray, you don't know whether it was fired. you have no way of getting at that. (discussion off the record.) mr. mccloy. thank you very much, mr. frazier. mr. specter. i want to call inspector kelley for observations from the underpass. may the record show that inspector thomas kelley has returned to the witness chair. testimony of thomas j. kelley resumed mr. kelley. yes, sir. mr. specter. before we conclude the testimony, inspector kelley, i want to ask you if on may you had occasion to go over to the triple underpass and observe the simulated car and occupants drive down elm street from houston street? mr. kelley. yes; i accompanied mr. redlich and mr. specter from the commission on the point on the overpass. mr. specter. from the commission or from where to the overpass--pardon me. i understand your sequence there. what did you observe as to the position of the president's stand-in concerning whether he could have been struck by a bullet which was fired from the top of the triple underpass? mr. kelley. i observed as the car came down elm street that the president's stand-in was in our view all the time as he was coming down the street from the right-hand side of the car. as the more you moved over to the left of the underpass, the longer the stand-in was in direct view of anybody standing on the overpass. mr. specter. and was the stand-in obstructed by the windshield at anytime as the car drove down elm street? mr. kelley. no; he was not. however, never at any time was he in a position to take a wound in the throat which from the drawings that have been given me, that i have been shown by the commission, would he take a wound in the throat which would have exited higher than the throat or in the shoulder. from the evidence that has been shown previously, the wound in the throat was lower on the president's body than the wound in the shoulder, and---- mr. specter. by the wound in the shoulder do you mean the wound in the back of the president's neck, the base of his neck? mr. kelley. yes. mr. specter. so, could a shot have been fired from the top of the triple underpass which would have passed through the president's neck, disregarding the medical evidence on point of entry, which traveled in an upward direction from the front of his neck upward to the back of his neck? mr. kelley. in my judgment, no. representative ford. if a person were standing where you have indicated you were on that triple overpass, on november , he would have been in full view of anybody in the immediate vicinity. mr. kelley. yes; and there were people on the overpass. there was a policeman on the overpass, there were a number of railroad workmen on the overpass at that time. representative ford. there would have been no place where such a person could have hidden himself and not been detected? mr. kelley. not on the overpass. mr. dulles. what were the railway workmen doing on the overpass, were they helping to guard the overpass or just spectators? mr. kelley. no; they were working. there are a great many tracks indicated here. mr. dulles. yes; i was up there and i remember it very well. mr. kelley. they were doing some repairs on the tracks. mr. dulles. i see. mr. mccloy. i had the impression there was more than one policeman also guarding up there, at least two, but maybe i am wrong. at least there is some testimony. mr. dulles. do you recall, mr. specter, what the testimony is on that--the number of policemen on the overpass? mr. specter. i believe there were two officers on the overpass, who said that no shots came from that direction. mr. mccloy. no shots came from that direction. is that all you wanted? mr. specter. that completes the testimony of mr. kelley and all of the individuals this afternoon. mr. mccloy. thank you very much, mr. kelley. (whereupon, at : p.m., the president's commission recessed to view the films.) testimony of lyndal l. shaneyfelt resumed (present were mr. mccloy, mr. dulles, and representative ford) mr. specter. may the record now show that the commission has now reassembled on the first floor of the vfw building where a motion picture projector and slide projector and screen have been set up for viewing of the films. mr. shaneyfelt, what are you going to show us first of all? mr. shaneyfelt. the first film will be of the color motion picture made through the rifle scope as the car drove down the assassination route at approximately miles an hour. it will give the view the rifleman had as he aimed the rifle from the sixth floor window of the book building. (film) mr. dulles. is that going miles per hour? (discussion off the record.) mr. shaneyfelt. this film will be the black and white photographs of the car in the fixed still positions in each of the frame numbers described in previous testimony. in addition the final portion of the film is a run through of the car at miles an hour on three separate runs filmed as the rifleman would have seen the car looking through the rifle. on the first run of the car going down the assassination route i have stained frames in the vicinity of frame which is after the first clear shot after the tree, i have stained the frame at the location of shot , which is the second pink flash you will see. i found, in examining the film, that this is a shorter span of time than in the actual film. it is a span on the reenactment of about three and a half seconds between and . the second frame stained is but since it is running at a faster speed i have also stained a spot that represents seconds which is what the time lapse was between frame and frame in the actual assassination films. that will be after the car driving scene. (film) mr. shaneyfelt. this is the last clear shot and this is an adjusted last clear shot before going under the tree. this is the shot approximately . this is frame which is the adjusted shots which would account for a -inch variance. shot of frame , and the adjusted frame which was . this is frame and you can see the tree is still in the background. this is now. . at this point governor connally states he has been hit by now. this is . -- -- --and the shot to the head which is . mr. specter. what is this? describe this, mr. shaneyfelt. mr. shaneyfelt. this is the run at miles an hour containing the pink stain. this is another run at miles an hour. it will give you some idea of the difficulty of tracking a car with a heavy camera mounted on the rifle. mr. mccloy. you have to sight that with a camera? mr. shaneyfelt. sighting through a camera. (film) mr. redlich. just as a final thing, mr. mccloy, would you like to see the zapruder film? mr. mccloy. i think we will take the original zapruder again, i don't know whether we have anything that is more significant in the black and whites, i am talking about the particular movies of the frames, we have not seen those. mr. shaneyfelt. yes. mr. mccloy. i think we have seen all we need to see with regard to that. what have you got left? mr. shaneyfelt. the original zapruder film. mr. mccloy. we will see that. mr. shaneyfelt. we have the duplication of the zapruder film reenactment. the first portion of the reel is the still shots and the last portion is the run through at miles an hour. mr. specter. i think you would find that worth while to see. mr. shaneyfelt. then we have nix and muchmore of the same run. mr. mccloy. let's do those, too. representative ford. first is the original zapruder. mr. shaneyfelt. original zapruder. this is not the original. this is the first copy. (film) mr. specter. will you state for the record what film we just saw? mr. shaneyfelt. this film we just viewed is a copy made directly from the original zapruder film of the actual assassination. mr. specter. could you now show us the film which was taken at the reconstruction from the zapruder position? (film) mr. shaneyfelt. these films we made in dallas have been developed and left intact and have not been edited in any way so there are a lot of blank spaces where we run the leader off and turn the film. this is position . this side-to-side jiggle is a camera malfunction. mr. mccloy. this is mm.? mr. shaneyfelt. no; mm. representative ford. is this from his camera? mr. shaneyfelt. yes; taken with his camera. frame , frame . this is frame . representative ford. he has a delayed reaction compared to what the president did. mr. specter. what frame is this, mr. shaneyfelt? mr. shaneyfelt. , the head shot. mr. mccloy. the head shot. mr. shaneyfelt. this is the position which is not duplicated on the zapruder film. this is running the film out to reload it. during that run at miles an hour we made no effort to duplicate the body position because it would have been most difficult to know just when to turn. the only other films we have are the ones we shot with the nix and muchmore cameras of this same run from their positions. mr. mccloy. did nix, muchmore get a second shot of the head shot? mr. shaneyfelt. mrs. muchmore got the head shot and mr. nix got the head shot. mr. mccloy. they both got it. mr. shaneyfelt. we have both those films. mr. mccloy. we might take a look at it while we are here. i don't think i have ever seen those. those are mm., too. mr. shaneyfelt. yes. (film.) mr. shaneyfelt. this film is the film that was taken by mr. orville nix of the assassination. this is along houston street going toward elm. there was the head shot. we will roll it back and run it at slow motion. the head shot shows just a very faint pink. mr. mccloy. very soon after this sequence begins. just as the president is directly under the white abutment in the background. i will try to give you a clue about when it is going to happen, there. the next film is the film that was exposed in mr. nix's camera standing in the position determined to be his camera position at the reenactment in dallas, with the car traveling at approximately miles an hour along elm street. these films were compared with each other and found to be consistent in the size of the car in the area of the picture and verified the position as being that of mr. nix. (film) mr. specter. have you now shown us, mr. shaneyfelt, all of the movies that we saw, we took in dallas? mr. mccloy. mrs. muchmore. mr. specter. mrs. muchmore. (film) mr. shaneyfelt. this is the motorcade coming down main and turning into houston street. mr. mccloy. she didn't know she took that. mr. shaneyfelt. no. mr. specter. have we now seen all the films from dallas? that concludes the films. mr. mccloy, for the record, i would like to have the films marked with commission exhibit no. identifying the zapruder copy. that is the copy of the original zapruder film. may i say here, parenthetically, that we do not intend to reproduce all of this in the published record of the commission since we have extracted the key numbers on exhibit on the album which shows the frames of the zapruder film after the president's automobile turns left off of houston onto elm, but for the permanent archives these films should be made a part of the permanent record. i would like to have a copy of the original nix film marked as commission exhibit no. . i would like to have the copy of the original muchmore film marked as commission exhibit no. . i would like to have all of the movies which we took at dallas marked in a group as commission exhibit no. . mr. mccloy. that is all the movies that were taken on may in dallas by the test team, so to speak. mr. specter. right, commissioner mccloy. they are marked as commission exhibit no. , and i would like to move formally for the admission into evidence of commission exhibits nos. through at this time. mr. mccloy. they may be admitted. (commission exhibits nos. , , , and were marked for identification, and received in evidence.) (whereupon, at : p.m., the president's commission recessed.) _friday, june , _ testimony of mrs. john f. kennedy the president's commission met, at : p.m., on friday, june , , at n street nw., washington, d.c. present was chief justice earl warren, chairman. also present were j. lee rankin, general counsel; and robert f. kennedy, attorney general of the united states. the chairman. the commission will be in order. mrs. kennedy, the commission would just like to have you say in your own words, in your own way, what happened at the time of the assassination of the president. mr. rankin will ask you a few questions, just from the time you left the airport until the time you started for the hospital. and we want it to be brief. we want it to be in your own words and want you to say anything that you feel is appropriate to that occasion. would you be sworn, please, mrs. kennedy? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mrs. kennedy. i do. the chairman. would you be seated. mr. rankin. state your name for the record. mrs. kennedy. jacqueline kennedy. mr. rankin. and you are the widow of the former president kennedy? mrs. kennedy. that is right. mr. rankin. you live here in washington? mrs. kennedy. yes. mr. rankin. can you go back to the time that you came to love field on november and describe what happened there after you landed in the plane? mrs. kennedy. we got off the plane. the then vice president and mrs. johnson were there. they gave us flowers. and then the car was waiting, but there was a big crowd there, all yelling, with banners and everything. and we went to shake hands with them. it was a very hot day. and you went all along a long line. i tried to stay close to my husband and lots of times you get pushed away, you know, people leaning over and pulling your hand. they were very friendly. and, finally, i don't know how we got back to the car. i think congressman thomas somehow was helping me. there was lots of confusion. mr. rankin. then you did get into the car. and you sat on the left side of the car, did you, and your husband on your right? mrs. kennedy. yes. mr. rankin. and was mrs. connally---- mrs. kennedy. in front of me. mr. rankin. and governor connally to your right in the jump seat? mrs. kennedy. yes. mr. rankin. and mrs. connally was in the jump seat? mrs. kennedy. yes. mr. rankin. and then did you start off on the parade route? mrs. kennedy. yes. mr. rankin. and were there many people along the route that you waved to? mrs. kennedy. yes. it was rather scattered going in. once there was a crowd of people with a sign saying something like "president kennedy, please get out and shake our hands, our neighbors said you wouldn't." mr. rankin. did you? mrs. kennedy. and he stopped and got out. that was, you know, like a little suburb and there were not many crowds. but then the crowds got bigger as you went in. mr. rankin. as you got into the main street of dallas were there very large crowds on all the streets? mrs. kennedy. yes. mr. rankin. and you waved to them and proceeded down the street with the motorcade? mrs. kennedy. yes. and in the motorcade, you know, i usually would be waving mostly to the left side and he was waving mostly to the right, which is one reason you are not looking at each other very much. and it was terribly hot. just blinding all of us. mr. rankin. now, do you remember as you turned off of the main street onto houston street? mrs. kennedy. i don't know the name of the street. mr. rankin. that is that one block before you get to the depository building. mrs. kennedy. well, i remember whenever it was, mrs. connally said, "we will soon be there." we could see a tunnel in front of us. everything was really slow then. and i remember thinking it would be so cool under that tunnel. mr. rankin. and then do you remember as you turned off of houston onto elm right by the depository building? mrs. kennedy. well, i don't know the names of the streets, but i suppose right by the depository is what you are talking about? mr. rankin. yes; that is the street that sort of curves as you go down under the underpass. mrs. kennedy. yes; well, that is when she said to president kennedy, "you certainly can't say that the people of dallas haven't given you a nice welcome." mr. rankin. what did he say? mrs. kennedy. i think he said--i don't know if i remember it or i have read it, "no, you certainly can't," or something. and you know then the car was very slow and there weren't very many people around. and then--do you want me to tell you what happened? mr. rankin. yes; if you would, please. mrs. kennedy. you know, there is always noise in a motorcade and there are always motorcycles besides us, a lot of them backfiring. so i was looking to the left. i guess there was a noise, but it didn't seem like any different noise really because there is so much noise, motorcycles and things. but then suddenly governor connally was yelling, "oh, no, no, no." mr. rankin. did he turn toward you? mrs. kennedy. no; i was looking this way, to the left, and i heard these terrible noises. you know. and my husband never made any sound. so i turned to the right. and all i remember is seeing my husband, he had this sort of quizzical look on his face, and his hand was up, it must have been his left hand. and just as i turned and looked at him, i could see a piece of his skull and i remember it was flesh colored. i remember thinking he just looked as if he had a slight headache. and i just remember seeing that. no blood or anything. and then he sort of did this [indicating], put his hand to his forehead and fell in my lap. and then i just remember falling on him and saying, "oh, no, no, no," i mean, "oh, my god, they have shot my husband." and "i love you, jack," i remember i was shouting. and just being down in the car with his head in my lap. and it just seemed an eternity. you know, then, there were pictures later on of me climbing out the back. but i don't remember that at all. mr. rankin. do you remember mr. hill coming to try to help on the car? mrs. kennedy. i don't remember anything. i was just down like that. and finally i remember a voice behind me, or something, and then i remember the people in the front seat, or somebody, finally knew something was wrong, and a voice yelling, which must have been mr. hill, "get to the hospital," or maybe it was mr. kellerman, in the front seat. but someone yelling. i was just down and holding him. [reference to wounds deleted.] mr. rankin. do you have any recollection of whether there were one or more shots? mrs. kennedy. well, there must have been two because the one that made me turn around was governor connally yelling. and it used to confuse me because first i remembered there were three and i used to think my husband didn't make any sound when he was shot. and governor connally screamed. and then i read the other day that it was the same shot that hit them both. but i used to think if i only had been looking to the right i would have seen the first shot hit him, then i could have pulled him down, and then the second shot would not have hit him. but i heard governor connally yelling and that made me turn around, and as i turned to the right my husband was doing this [indicating with hand at neck]. he was receiving a bullet. and those are the only two i remember. and i read there was a third shot. but i don't know. just those two. mr. rankin. do you have any recollection generally of the speed that you were going, not any precise amount. mrs. kennedy. we were really slowing turning the corner. and there were very few people. mr. rankin. and did you stop at any time after the shots, or proceed about the same way? mrs. kennedy. i don't know, because--i don't think we stopped. but there was such confusion. and i was down in the car and everyone was yelling to get to the hospital and you could hear them on the radio, and then suddenly i remember a sensation of enormous speed, which must have been when we took off. mr. rankin. and then from there you proceeded as rapidly as possible to the hospital, is that right? mrs. kennedy. yes. mr. rankin. do you recall anyone saying anything else during the time of the shooting? mrs. kennedy. so; there weren't any words. there was just governor connally's. and then i suppose mrs. connally was sort of crying and covering her husband. but i don't remember any words. and there was a big windshield between--you know--i think. isn't there? mr. rankin. between the seats. mrs. kennedy. so you know, those poor men in the front, you couldn't hear them. mr. rankin. can you think of anything more? the chairman. no; i think not. i think that is the story and that is what we came for. we thank you very much, mrs. kennedy. mr. rankin. i would just like to ask if you recall special agent kellerman saying anything to you as you came down the street after you turned that corner that you referred to. mrs. kennedy. you mean before the shots? mr. rankin. yes. mrs. kennedy. well, i don't, because--you know, it is very hard for them to talk. but i do not remember, just as i don't recall climbing out on the back of the car. mr. rankin. yes. you have told us what you remember about the entire period as far as you can recall, have you? mrs. kennedy. yes. the chairman. thank you very much, mrs. kennedy. (whereupon, at : p.m., the president's commission recessed.) _sunday, june , _ testimony of mr. jack ruby the president's commission met at : a.m., on june , , in the interrogation room of the dallas county jail, main and houston streets, dallas, tex. present were chief justice earl warren, chairman; and representative gerald r. ford, member. also present were j. lee rankin, general counsel; joseph a. ball, assistant counsel; arlen specter, assistant counsel; leon jaworski and robert g. storey, special counsel to the attorney general of texas; jim bowie, assistant district attorney; joe h. tonahill, attorney for jack ruby; elmer w. moore, special agent, u.s. secret service; and j. e. decker, sheriff of dallas county. mr. ruby. without a lie detector test on my testimony, my verbal statements to you, how do you know if i am tell the truth? mr. tonahill. don't worry about that, jack. mr. ruby. just a minute, gentlemen. chief justice warren. you wanted to ask something, did you, mr. ruby? mr. ruby. i would like to be able to get a lie detector test or truth serum of what motivated me to do what i did at that particular time, and it seems as you get further into something, even though you know what you did, it operates against you somehow, brainwashes you, that you are weak in what you want to tell the truth about and what you want to say which is the truth. now mr. warren, i don't know if you got any confidence in the lie detector test and the truth serum, and so on. chief justice warren. i can't tell you just how much confidence i have in it, because it depends so much on who is taking it, and so forth. but i will say this to you, that if you and your counsel want any kind of test, i will arrange it for you. i would be glad to do that, if you want it. i wouldn't suggest a lie detector test to testify the truth, we will treat you just the same as we do any other witness, but if you want such a test, i will arrange for it. mr. ruby. i do want it. will you agree to that, joe? mr. tonahill. i sure do, jack. chief justice warren. any kind of a test you want to verify what you say, we will be glad to do. mr. ruby. i want it even if you put me into a sort of drowsiness so you can question me as to anything pertaining to my involvement in this particular act. mr. tonahill. jack, you have wanted to do that from the very beginning, haven't you? mr. ruby. yes; and the reason why i am asking for that is--are you limited for time? chief justice warren. no; we have all the time you want. mr. ruby. as it started to trial--i don't know if you realize my reasoning, how i happened to be involved--i was carried away tremendously emotionally, and all the time i tried to ask mr. belli, i wanted to get up and say the truth regarding the steps that led me to do what i have got involved in, but since i have a spotty background in the night club business, i should have been the last person to ever want to do something that i had been involved in. in other words, i was carried away tremendously. you want to ask me questions? chief justice warren. you tell us what you want, and then we will ask you some questions. mr. rankin. i think he ought to be sworn. mr. ruby. am i boring you? chief justice warren. go ahead. all right, mr. ruby, tell us your story. mr. ruby. that particular morning--where is mr. moore--i had to go down to the news building, getting back to this--i don't want to interrupt. chief justice warren. what morning do you mean? mr. ruby. friday morning, the starting of the tragedy. mr. belli evidently did not go into my case thoroughly, circumstantially. if he had gone into it, he wouldn't have tried to vindicate me on an insanity plea to relieve me of all responsibility, because circumstantially everything looks so bad for me. it can happen--it happens to many people who happen to be at the wrong place at the right time. had mr. belli spent more time with me, he would have realized not to try to get me out completely free; at the time we are talking, technically, how attorneys operate. chief justice warren. i understand. mr. ruby. different things came up, flashed back into my mind, that it dirtied my background, that mr. belli and i tell the truth what i went to say that i wanted to get on the stand and tell the truth what happened that morning, he said, "jack, when they get you on the stand, you are actually speaking of a premeditated crime that you involved yourself in." but i didn't care, because i wanted to tell the truth. he said, "when the prosecution gets you on the stand, they will cut you to ribbons." so naturally, i had to retract, and he fought his way to try to vindicate me out of this particular crime. you follow that? chief justice warren. yes; i do indeed. mr. ruby. i want you to question me and requestion me on anything you want, plus the fact i do want the tests when they are available. chief justice warren. yes. mr. ruby. on friday, the morning parade--this goes back to thursday night, because it has something to do with it. we were having dinner at the egyptian restaurant---- chief justice warren. right now, mr. ruby, before we get started taking your testimony, would you mind being sworn? (chief justice warren and jack ruby stand and both raise their right hand.) chief justice warren. do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before the commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. ruby. i do. chief justice warren. now will you please state whether the things you have just told us are true under your oath? mr. ruby. i do so state they are the truth. chief justice warren. now you complete whatever story you want to tell. mr. ruby. all right. thursday night i was having dinner at the egyptian restaurant on mockingbird lane, and a fellow comes over to the table. i was sitting with a guy by the name of ralph paul. he tried to invite me to the club a couple of doors down and i refused, because he had taken a band away from me that had been engaged for years, and i felt it was a lost cause, that the club would be failing because of that, and i sort of excused myself and i refused to go over to the club. we finished our dinner, and i went down to the club that i operated, the carousel, and this particular master of ceremonies happened to be there at the time, and we discussed a few things. and there is a columnist by the name of tony zoppi--and prior to that, i wrote out a full page copy of this build--i have the copies--as an emcee, and i brought a picture and brochure, and tony said, "i will write a story." this was done days prior to this thursday night. so then i went down, so we discussed it and were very much disgusted with tony because he only gave us a build of one or two lines. well, i retired that night after closing the club. then i knew i wanted to go back to the morning news building to get the brochure i left, and also this complete page of longhand writing describing the various talents of this bill demar. i picked up the brochure that friday morning, and i also had business at the news building on friday because that is the start of the weekend, which is very lucrative, the weekend. i have ways of making my ads of where they have a way of selling the product i am producing or putting on on the show. so i went down there friday morning to tony zoppi's office, and they said he went to new orleans for a couple of days. i picked up the brochure. i believe i got downtown there at : or o'clock that morning. and i took the brochure and then went into the main room where we compose our ads. that is the sales room where we placed our ads. and i remained there for a while. i started to write the copy of my ad. now i go back to the same fellow that wanted me to come over to the club when we were having our dinner on mockingbird at the egyptian lounge. i came to the desk and i wanted to apologize and explain why i didn't accept his invitation last night. i wanted to explain, and that took about or minutes. all this is pertaining to everything prior to the terrible tragedy that happened. i started to explain to him why i didn't want to go there, because this fellow mentioned--tony, i think--i can't think of his last name--of me having his band so many years, and i felt at the moment i didn't want to go over to the club because i didn't care to meet this fellow. and he started to apologize, "jack, i am sorry, i did work for the fellow and we have been advertising him for that club, and i am putting out a night club book." i remained with him for or minutes talking there. i don't know whether my ad was completed or not. it was an ad on the vegas and the carousel. my ads were completed, i believe, and after finishing my conversation with him, he left. suddenly the man that completes my ads for me, that helps me with it on occasion--but i usually make it up myself--but the person that takes the money for the ads--this is the reason it is so hard for me to meet a deadline when i get downtown to the news building. and as a rule, i have to pay cash for my ads. when you are in debt, it is necessary, and they will not put it in unless you pay cash. and consequently, the weekend, i had been to town on that particular day. all this adds up later on, as i will state why i didn't go to the parade. in the first place, i don't want to go where there is big crowds. i can't explain it to you. if i was interested, i would have seen it on television, our beloved president and all the parade that transpired. but all that adds up why it is important for me to be in the news building. i owe the government quite a bit of money, and it is doing business out of your pocket, supposedly, in the slang expression. well, john newnam comes in, and evidently he took it for granted i finished my ad, and i don't recall if he paid for his ad, and suddenly there is some milling around. i think it was , or minutes after , i don't recall what, but john newnam said someone had been shot. and i am sorry, i got carried away. it is the first time i got carried away, because i had been under pressure. and someone else came running over and he said a secret service man was shot, or something to that effect. and i am here in the middle with john newnam, because newnam isn't paying any attention to anyone else, and there is a lot of going back and forth. so someone must have made a statement that governor connally was shot. i don't recall what was said. and i was in a state of hysteria, i mean. you say, "oh my god, it can't happen." you carry on crazy sayings. there was a little television set in one office not far away from where i had been sitting at the desk. i ran over there and noticed a little boy and a little sister say, "i was standing right there when it happened." i mean, different things you hear on the television. then the phone started ringing off the desk and i heard john newnam say people were complaining about the ad, why they accepted this ad. (a tray of water and glasses was brought in.) thank you. has every witness been this hesitant in trying to explain their story? chief justice warren. you are doing very well. i can understand why you have to reflect upon a story of that length. mr. ruby. the phones were ringing off the desk calling various ads, and they were having a turmoil in that news building because of a person by the name of bernard weissman placing that particular ad, a full page ad. i am sure you are familiar with the ad. chief justice warren. yes; i am. mr. ruby. criticizing a lot of things about our beloved president. then john newnam and i and another gentleman walked over to another part of the room, and i heard john newnam say, "i told him not to take that ad." something to that effect. then he said, "well, you have seen him pay part cash and come back and pay the balance." now everything is very vague to me as to when this transpired; after they heard the president had been shot, or prior to that. you know it's been a long time, and i am under a very bad mental strain here. chief justice warren. yes. mr. ruby. from the time that we were told that the president was shot, minutes later they said he had passed away. in the meantime, i became very emotional. i called my sister at home. she was carried away terribly bad. and john newnam happened to be there, and i know it is a funny reaction you have, you want other people to feel that you feel emotionally disturbed the same way as other people, so i let john listen to the phone that my sister was crying hysterically. and i said to john, i said, "john, i will have to leave dallas." i don't know why i said that, but it is a funny reaction that you feel; the city is terribly let down by the tragedy that happened. and i said, "john, i am not opening up tonight." and i don't know what else transpired there. i know people were just heartbroken. i left the room. i may have left out a few things. mr. moore remembers probably more, but you come back and question me and maybe i can answer those questions. i left the building and i went down and i got my car, and i couldn't stop crying, because naturally when i pulled up to a stoplight and other people would be adjacent to me, i wouldn't want them to see me crying, because it looked kind of artificial. and i went to the club and i came up, and i may have made a couple of calls from there. i could have called my colored boy, andy, down at the club. i could have--i don't know who else i would have called, but i could have, because it is so long now since my mind is very much warped now. you think that literally? i went up to the club, and i told andy, i said, "call everyone and tell them we are not opening." we have a little girl in fort worth i wanted to make sure he called her. and a fellow by the name of bell called and wanted to know if we were open. and kathy kay called, and i said, "definitely not." and i called ralph paul, that owns the bull pen. he said, "jack, being as everyone else is open"--because he knows i was pressed for money--and i said, "no, ralph, i can't open." he said, "okay, if that is why, that is the way it's got to be." so in the meantime, i had gone with alice nichols for some time, and i called her on the phone but she wasn't there, but i left the number on the pay phone for her to return the call, because i didn't want to keep the business phone tied up. and i hadn't spoken to her in maybe months or a year. i don't know what i said to her, not many words, but just what happened. i still remained around the club there. i am sure i was crying pretty bad. i think i made a long-distance call to california. this fellow had just visited me, and i had known him in the days back in chicago when we were very young, in the real tough part of chicago. his name is al gruber. he was a bad kid in those days, but he is quite reformed. he is married and has a family, and i am sure he makes a very legitimate livelihood at this time. he happened to come through a couple of nights prior to that to try to interest me, or or days prior to that, to interest me in a new kind--you follow the story as i tell it? chief justice warren. yes. mr. ruby. it is important, very important. it is on a new kind of machine that washes cars. you pay with tokens. it is a new thing. i don't know if it faded out or not. he tried to interest my brother, sammy, because sammy sold his washateria. and my sister was in the hospital when he first came. i am going back a little bit. sammy didn't go to the hospital, and we needed to tell sammy about this particular thing, and that is the reason al gruber came into the picture, because he came to try to interest my brother, sammy, in this new washateria deal to wash cars. he left and went to california, but before he went to california i promised him my dachshund dog. when this thing happened, i called him. he said, "yes, we are just watching on television." and i couldn't carry on more conversation. i said, "al, i have to hang up." then i must have called my sister, eileen, in chicago. then a fellow came over to deliver some merchandise i had ordered over the phone, or andy ordered. and we said, "what is the use of purchasing any merchandise of any kind, we are not interested in business." and i don't recall what i said, but i told him whatever money he received, to keep the change. i am not a philanthropist, but nothing bothered me at the time. i wasn't interested in anything. then i kept calling my sister, eva, because she wanted me to come be with her. eva and i have a very complex personality. very rarely can i be with her, but on this particular occasion, since she was carrying on so, i felt that i wanted to be with someone that meant something to me. i wanted to be with her. and i kept calling her back, "i will be there." and so on. but i never did get there until a couple of hours later. i finally left the club. i am sure you gentlemen can brief in all the things that happened before. a kid by the name of larry up there, i think i told him to send the dog they crated, to find out about the price--very implusive about everything. then i left the club. and i had been dieting, but i felt i wanted some food. i can't explain it. it would be like getting intoxicated at that particular time. it is amusing, but it is true. i went over to the ritz delicatessen a block and a half away. must have bought out the store, for about $ worth of delicacies and so on. went out to my sister's and stayed at her apartment. oh, i called from the apartment--my sister knew more of my calls than i did. i remember i think i called--i can't think of who i called. anyway, i am sure i made some calls of what had happened there. somebody will have to piece me together from the time i got to my sister's apartment where i had partaken of the food. oh yes, i called andy. this andy armstrong called me and said, "don safran wants you to call him." this is rare for this gentleman, because he is a columnist for the dallas times herald, because he never could get out any copy for my club. and he said, "don safran wants me to call him." i called him, and he said, "jack, are you going to be closed tonight?" i said, "yes." he said, "well, the cabana and the adolphus, the century room, are going to be closed." i said, "don, i am not asking you about any clubs that are going to be closed. i know i am going to be closed." and he said, "jack, that is what i want to know." and i said, "you don't have to prompt me about who else is going to be closed." i put the receiver down and talked to my sister, and i said, "eva, what shall we do?" and she said, "jack, let's close for the days." she said, "we don't have anything anyway, but we owe it to"--(chokes up). so i called don safran back immediately and i said, "don, we decided to close for friday, saturday, and sunday." and he said, "okay." then i called the morning news and i wanted to definitely make sure to change a copy of my ad to "closed friday, saturday, and sunday," something to that effect. and it was a little late in the afternoon, but he said, "we will try to get the copy in." then i called don back again but couldn't get him, and i spoke to one of his assistants, and i said, i forget what i told him. anyway, that is one of the calls i had that had transpired. i lie down and take a nap. i wake about or : . in the meantime, i think i called--the reason this comes back to me, i know i was going to go to the synagogue. i called coleman jacobson and asked him what time services are tonight, and he said he didn't know. and i said, "are there going to be any special services?" and he said he didn't know of any. and i called the congregation shearith israel and asked the girl, and she said, "regular services at o'clock." and i said, "aren't there going to be earlier services like : or ? and about : i went to my apartment. i don't know if i went downtown to the club. i know i went to my apartment--either to the club or to the apartment. and i changed, showered and shaved, and i think i drove--and as i drove down, there is a certain thornton freeway, and i saw the clubs were still open going full blast, a couple of clubs there. anyway, i went out to the synagogue and i went through the line and i spoke to rabbi silverman, and i thanked him for going to visit my sister at the hospital. she was in a week prior and had just gotten out. i don't remember the date. then he had a confirmation--this is the night prior to the confirmation. they serve little delicacies. so in spite of the fact of the mood i was in, i strolled into the place, and i think i had a little glass of punch. nothing intoxicating, just a little punch they serve there. i didn't speak to anyone. one girl, leona, said "hello, jack," and i wasn't in a conversational mood whatsoever. i left the club--i left the synagogue and i drove by the bali-hai restaurant. i noticed they were open. i took recognition of that. i drove by another club called the gay nineties, and they were closed. and i made it my business to drive down preston road. in my mind suddenly it mulled over me that the police department was working overtime. and this is the craziest thing that ever happened in a person's life. i have always been very close to the police department, i don't know why. i felt i have always abided by the law--a few little infractions, but not serious--and i felt we have one of the greatest police forces in the world here, and i have always been close to them, and i visited in the office. and over the radio i heard they were working overtime. i stopped at the delicatessen called phil's on oak lawn avenue, and suddenly i decided--i told the clerk there i wanted him to make me some real good sandwiches, about or , and he had already started on the sandwiches and i got on the phone. i called an officer by the name of sims and i said, "sims, i hear you guys are working," and so on. i said, "i want to bring some sandwiches." and he said, "jack, we wound up our work already. we wound up what we were doing. we are finished what we were doing. i will tell the boys about your thoughtfulness, and i will thank them for you." in the meantime, there is a fellow in town that has been very good to me named gordon mclendon. do you know him, mr. warren? chief justice warren. i think i do not. mr. ruby. he had been giving me a lot of free plugs. and all the while listening to the radio, i heard about a certain diskjockey, joe long, that is down at the station, giving firsthand information--i want to describe him--of oswald. very rarely do i use the name oswald. i don't know why. i don't know how to explain it--of the person that committed the act. [pause to compose self.] so before going down to the police station, i try to call klif but can't get their number. i wanted to bring the sandwiches to klif so they would have the sandwiches, since they already started to make them up. and i remember russ knight, a diskjockey--these names aren't familiar to you, but i have to mention them in order to refresh my memory. his name was moore, or something, and i tried to get information on the telephone, but they couldn't give me the phone number of his home. i probably thought i could get the phone number, but after p.m., you cannot get into the premises unless you have a "hot" number that is right to the diskjockey room. so i couldn't get a hold of that. but in the meantime, i called gordon mclendon's home, because i know he lives near the synagogue out there, and i got a little girl on the phone, and i knew they had children, and i asked for the number for klif. i said, "anyone home?" she said, "no." i said, "is your daddy or mommy home?" i forget what transpired. i said, "i would like to get the number of the station so i can get in the building at this time." she said she would go and see, and gave me a riverside exchange. mind you, this is or months back, gentlemen. and i asked her name. her name was christine, i think. i said, "i wanted to bring some sandwiches." she said, "my mother already brought sandwiches." and i said, "i wanted to go there too." and that was the end of this little girl's conversation with myself. i called that number, as i am repeating myself. there was no such number. it was an obsolete number. i go down to the--i drive by--i leave the delicatessen--the clerk helped me with the sandwiches out to my car, and i thanked him. i told him, "these were going to klif, and i want you to make them real good." he helped me with the sandwiches in the car. i got in the car and drove down toward town. i imagine it is about or miles to the downtown section from this delicatessen. but prior to going into the station, i drove up mckinney avenue to look over a couple of clubs to see if they were activating. i knew the club across from the phil's delicatessen and i knew the b. & b. restaurant was open. that is a restaurant and i know the necessity for food, but i can't understand some of the clubs remaining open. it struck me funny at such a tragic time as that happening. i drove down to commerce and harwood and parked my car with my dog--incidentally, i always have my dog with me--on the lot there, left the sandwiches in the car, went into the building of the police station, took the elevator up to the second floor, and there was a police officer there. this is the first time i ever entered the building, gentlemen. the first time of that friday. this time it must have been about--i mean the time, the time of my entering the building, i guess, was approximately : p.m. the officer was there, and i said, "where is joe long?" i said, "can i go and look for him?" evidently i took a little domineering part about me, and i was able to be admitted. i asked different reporters and various personalities there, "are you joe long?," and i couldn't locate him. i even had a police officer try to page him and he couldn't locate him. i recognized a couple of police officers, cal jones and a few others, and i said "hello" to them. and i am still looking for joe long, but i am carried away with the excitement of history. and one fellow then--i am in the hallway there--there is a narrow hallway, and i don't recall if captain fritz or chief curry brings the prisoner out, and i am standing about or feet away from him, and there is some reporters that didn't know the various police officers, and i don't know whether they asked me or i volunteered to tell them, because i knew they were looking to find out who that was, and i said, "that was chief curry" or "that is captain fritz," or whoever it was. i don't recall henry wade coming out in the hallway. he probably did. i don't recall what happened. (to joe tonahill) is that for me, joe? then suddenly someone asked, either the chief or captain fritz, "isn't there a larger room we can go into?" they said, "well, let's go down to the assembly room downstairs." i don't know what transpired in between from the time that i had the officer page joe long up to the time i was standing about feet away from oswald. all the things--i don't recall if i am telling you everything that happened from that time, from the time i entered the building to the time i went down to the assembly room. i went down to the assembly room down in the basement. i felt perfectly free walking in there. no one asked me or anything. i got up on a little table there where i knew i wasn't blocking anyone's view, because there was an abutment sticking out, and i had my back to the abutment, and i was standing there. then they brought the prisoner out and various questions were being shouted. i noticed there was a chief county judge--davidson, i can't think of his name, one of these precinct court judges, and they brought the prisoner out. i don't recall if chief fritz, captain fritz was there, or chief curry. i know henry wade was there. and they started shouting questions and he said, "is he the one?" and the question about the gun. and they questioned henry wade, "what organization did he belong to," or something. and if i recall, i think henry wade answered, "free cuba." and i corrected henry wade, because listening to the radio or klif, it stood out in my mind that it was "fair play cuba." there was a difference. so he said, "oh yes, fair play cuba," and he corrected that. i don't know how long we remained there. there was a lot of questions thrown back and forth, and this district attorney henry wade was answering them to the best he could. from the way he stated, he let the reporters know that this was the guilty one that committed the crime. he specifically stated that in that room, that he was the one. it didn't have any effect in my mind, because whether the person had come out, whether he come out openly and publicly stated didn't have any bearing in my mind, because i wasn't interested in anything. all i knew, they had the prisoner. but the reporters like to know where they stand, "is he the one?" we left out in the hallway, and i saw henry wade standing there, and i went over to him and said, "henry. i want you to know i was the one that corrected you." i think it is a childish thing, but i met henry wade sometime back, and i knew he would recognize me. by the way, it was "fair play cuba," or something to that effect. in the meantime, as i leave henry wade, two gentlemen pass by and i said, "are you joe long?" he said, "no, why do you want joe long?" and i said, "i got to get into klif. i have got some sandwiches." and he said, "what about us?" and i said, "some other time." and it so happened i found out jerry cunkle and sam pease, i found out they were the names, so i did get the number, because these fellows work for a rival radio station, and he gave me the number of klif. and in the testimony of john rutledge, if i recall now--this is the only time i had ever seen this person. when i went out the railing where the phone was at, people felt free to walk in. in other words, i felt that i was deputized as a reporter momentarily, you might say. so i called one of the boys at klif and i said to them, "i have sandwiches for you. i want to get over there." i said, "by the way, i see henry wade talking on the phone to someone. do you want me to get him over here?" and he said, "yes, do that." that is when everyone was beckoning henry wade, and i called him over and he talked on the phone to this boy. and after he finished; i didn't even tell him what station it was. i said, "here is somebody that wants to talk to you." and i felt he wouldn't turn it down. and this fellow was very much elated that i brought him over there. and i said, "now, will you let me in?" he said, "i will only leave the door open for minutes." that was after the conversation was finished with henry wade. i got ready to leave the building and i got up to the next floor and there was another diskjockey at klif, russ knight. he said, "jack, where is everything happening?" and he had a tape recorder. and i said, "come on downstairs", and led him downstairs. and there was henry wade sitting there. and i said, "henry, this is russ knight." and i left him there with henry wade, and i went to my car and drove over to klif, which is a block away from there. and it was a little chilly that night, as i recall, but by bringing russ knight over to henry wade, i delayed too long to get to klif, and i had to wait minutes until russ knight came from finishing his interview with henry wade. i had the sandwiches with me and some soda pop and various things, and russ knight opened the door and we went upstairs. (mr. arlen specter, a staff counsel, entered the room.) chief justice warren. this is another man on my staff, mr. specter. would you mind if he came in? (chief justice warren introduced the men around the room.) mr. ruby. is there any way to get me to washington? chief justice warren. i beg your pardon? mr. ruby. is there any way of you getting me to washington? chief justice warren. i don't know of any. i will be glad to talk to your counsel about what the situation is, mr. ruby, when we get an opportunity to talk. mr. ruby. i don't think i will get a fair representation with my counsel, joe tonahill. i don't think so. i would like to request that i go to washington and you take all the tests that i have to take. it is very important. mr. tonahill. jack, will you tell him why you don't think you will get a fair representation? mr. ruby. because i have been over this for the longest time to get the lie detector test. somebody has been holding it back from me. chief justice warren. mr. ruby, i might say to you that the lateness of this thing is not due to your counsel. he wrote me, i think, close to months ago and told me that you would be glad to testify and take, i believe he said, any test. i am not sure of that, but he said you would be glad to testify before the commission. and i thanked him for the letter. but we have been so busy that this is the first time we have had an opportunity to do it. but there has been no delay, as far as i know, on the part of mr. tonahill in bringing about this meeting. it was our own delay due to the pressures we had on us at the time. mr. ruby. what state are you from, congressman? representative ford. michigan. grand rapids, mich. chief justice warren. i will be glad to talk that over, if we can. you might go right ahead, if you wish, with the rest of your statement. mr. ruby. all right. i remained at klif from that moment on, from the time i got into the building, with russ knight. we talked about various things. i brought out the thought of this ad that bernard weissman had placed in the newspaper, and i also told russ the one i admired by gordon mclendon. he came out with an editorial about the incident with adlai stevenson and all those things. he is one person that will immediately go to bat if anything is wrong. he will clarify it. and i told russ knight there were some other things that were occurring at the time. so i remained there until about a.m., and we all partook of the sandwiches and had a feast there. and they spliced the various comments they got back and forth of henry wade, of russ knight's copy--of russ knight's items of henry wade. chief justice warren. mr. ruby, this is the young man, mr. specter. he is a member of our staff, and he comes from philadelphia. (ruby shakes hands with mr. specter.) mr. ruby. i am at a disadvantage, gentlemen, telling my story. chief justice warren. you were right at the point where you had it about o'clock in the morning, and you had had your feast, as you mentioned, and had talked to these men, and so forth. that was the last that you had told us. mr. ruby. well, lots of things occurred up to that. they talked pro and con about the tragedy. at a.m., i left the building. i drove--i was going to go toward the times herald building, because as a result--i very rarely go there for my weekend ad, because once i get the ad into the morning news, which is the earlier issue, all i have to do is call the newspaper and they transpire the same ad that i had into the newspaper--into the morning news. and i promised one of the boys working in the times herald building there--i was in the act, in the business of a twist-board deal i was promoting as a sales item by advertisement and mail order, and i had been evading him, or didn't have time to go out there because it was very late when i left the club, and i didn't want to stop, but because this was an early morning, i thought this would be the right time to go over there, plus the fact of changing my ad i had in the morning news to the closing of days, that i would go over there and maybe add a little more effectiveness to it in the way i wanted the ad placed. as i was driving toward the times herald with the intention of doing these things, i heard someone honk a horn very loudly, and i stopped. there was a police officer sitting in a car. he was sitting with this young lady that works in my club, kathy kay, and they were very much carried away. and i was carried away; and he had a few beers, and it is so bad, about those places open, and i was a great guy to close; and i remained with them--did i tell you this part of it? mr. moore. i don't recall this part; no. mr. ruby. i didn't tell you this part because at the time i thought a lot of harry carlson as a police officer, and either it slipped my mind in telling this, or it was more or less a reason for leaving it out, because i felt i didn't want to involve them in anything, because it was supposed to be a secret that he was going with this young lady. he had marital problems. i don't know if that is why i didn't tell you that. anyway, i did leave it out. his name is harry carlson. her name is kathy kay. and they talked and they carried on, and they thought i was the greatest guy in the world, and he stated they should cut this guy inch by inch into ribbons, and so on. and she said, "well, if he was in england, they would drag him through the streets and would have hung him." i forget what she said. i left them after a long delay. they kept me from leaving. they were constantly talking and were in a pretty dramatic mood. they were crying and carrying on. i went to the building of the times herald. i went to the times herald--may i read that, joe? may i please? (joe tonahill hands paper to jack ruby.) mr. tonahill. sam ever get your glasses? mr. ruby. not yet. [reading.] "this is the girl that"--what?--"that started jack off." what is this other word? mr. tonahill. culminated? mr. ruby. that is untrue. that is what i wanted to read. (throwing pad on table.) gentlemen, unless you get me to washington, you can't get a fair shake out of me. if you understand my way of talking, you have got to bring me to washington to get the tests. do i sound dramatic? off the beam? chief justice warren. no; you are speaking very, very rationally, and i am really surprised that you can remember as much as you have remembered up to the present time. you have given it to us in detail. mr. ruby. unless you can get me to washington, and i am not a crackpot, i have all my senses--i don't want to evade any crime i am guilty of. but mr. moore, have i spoken this way when we have talked? mr. moore. yes. mr. ruby. unless you get me to washington immediately, i am afraid after what mr. tonahill has written there, which is unfair to me regarding my testimony here--you all want to hear what he wrote? chief justice warren. yes; you might read it. if you need glasses again, try mine this time (handing glasses to mr. ruby). mr. ruby (putting on glasses). "this is the girl"---- mr. tonahill. "thing," isn't it? mr. ruby. "this is the thing that started jack in the shooting." mr. tonahill. kathy kay was talking about oswald. mr. ruby. you are lying, joe tonahill. you are lying. mr. tonahill. no; i am not. mr. ruby. you are lying, because you know what motivated me. you want to make it that it was a premeditation. mr. tonahill. no. mr. ruby. yes; you do. mr. tonahill. i don't think there was any premeditation, but you go ahead and tell it your way. that is what we want you to do. that is what the chief justice wants. mr. ruby. not when you specify this. you are senator rankin? mr. rankin. no; i am the general counsel for our commission, mr. ruby. mr. tonahill. you go on and keep telling it down to caroline and the truth. chief justice warren. mr. ruby, may i suggest this, that if we are to have any tests, either a lie detector or, as you suggest, maybe a truth serum--i don't know anything about truth serum, but if we are to have it, we have to have something to check against, and we would like to have the rest of your story as you started to tell us, because you are now getting down to the crucial part of it, and it wouldn't be fair to you to have this much of it and then not have the rest. mr. ruby. because the reason why, joe knows from the time that i told attorney belli, and the story i wanted to tell on the stand, and mr. tonahill knows this isn't the time. the thought never entered my mind. he knows it. mr. tonahill. i didn't say the thought entered your mind. i didn't say that. mr. ruby. you are inferring that. mr. tonahill. unconsciously, maybe, is what i meant to say. mr. ruby. why go back to friday, joe? mr. tonahill. you are going to come right down---- mr. ruby. why go back to friday? that set me off. then it is a greater premeditation than you know is true. mr. tonahill. i don't say it is premeditation. i never have. i don't think it is. mr. ruby. because it never entered my mind when they talked about, the officer, cutting him into bits. you would like to have built it up for my defense, but that is not it. i am here to tell the truth. mr. tonahill. the psychiatrist said that to me. mr. ruby. you want to put that into my thoughts, but it never happened. i took it with a grain of salt what he said at that particular time. well, it is too bad, chief warren, that you didn't get me to your headquarters months ago. chief justice warren. well, mr. ruby, i will tell you why we didn't. because you were then about to be tried and i didn't want to do anything that would prejudice you in your trial. and for that reason, i wouldn't even consider asking you to testify until your trial was over. that is the only reason that we didn't talk to you sooner. and i wish we had gotten here a little sooner after your trial was over, but i know you had other things on your mind, and we had other work, and it got to this late date. but i assure you, there is no desire on our part to let this matter go to any late date for any ulterior purpose. i assure you of that. and as i told you at the beginning, if you want a test of some kind made, i will undertake to see that it is done. mr. ruby. you have power to do it, even though the district attorney objects to me getting the tests? chief justice warren. yes; i do. mr. ruby. how soon can it be done? chief justice warren. well, i am not familiar with those things, but we will try to do it expeditiously, you may be sure, because we are trying to wind up the work of this commission. and i assure you we won't delay it. mr. ruby. are you staying overnight here, chief warren? chief justice warren. no; i have to be back, because we have an early session of the court tomorrow morning. mr. ruby. is there any way of getting a polygraph here? mr. decker. may i make a suggestion? jack, listen, you and i have had a lot of dealings. do you want my officers removed from the room while you talk to this commission? mr. ruby. that wouldn't prove any truth. mr. decker. these people came several thousand miles to interview you. you have wanted to tell me your story and i have refused to let you tell me. now be a man with a bunch of men that have come a long way to give you an opportunity to. you asked me for permission to tell your story, and i told you "no." this is a supreme investigating committee at this particular time. now give them your story and be a man, if you want them to deal with you and deal fairly with you. mr. ruby. it is unfair to me unless i get all the facilities to back up what i say. mr. decker. you tell him your story. nobody is denying it. you tell this man. he has come a thousand or more miles to listen to you. now be a man about it. mr. moore. what i suggest--jack, at one time i was a polygraph operator, and you would not be able to go through the entire story the way you have here. so, seriously, you should tell the story and the things you want checked, you can be asked directly. because you can only answer yes or no on the polygraph examination. so i think in view of what you want, you should tell your story first, and then the points that you want verified, you can be questioned on. as the sheriff mentioned, the commission has come a long way to have the opportunity to listen to your story, and i am sure that they know you are telling the truth, in any case. mr. ruby. i wish the president were right here now. it is a terrible ordeal, i tell you that. chief justice warren. i am sure it is an ordeal for you, and we want to make it just as easy as we can. that is the reason that we have let you tell your story in your own way without being interrupted. if you will just proceed with the rest of your statement, i think it would make it a lot easier for us to verify it in the way that you want it to be done. mr. ruby. i don't know how to answer you. chief justice warren. well, you have told us most of what happened up to the time of the incident, and you are almost within, you are just within a few hours of it now. mr. ruby. there is a saturday. chief justice warren. beg your pardon? mr. ruby. there is a saturday night. there is a friday night. this is still only friday night, chief. chief justice warren. yes; that is true. mr. ruby. well, i will go into a certain point, and if i stop, you will have to understand if i stop to get my bearings together. chief justice warren. yes. mr. ruby. i am in the times herald building. i go upstairs, naturally. chief justice warren. this is about what time? mr. ruby. this, i imagine, is--i left the klif at a.m., and i spent an hour with the officer and his girl friend, so it must have been about : approximately. no; it wasn't. when you are not concerned with time, it could have been o'clock. chief justice warren. it doesn't make any difference. mr. ruby. forty-five minutes difference. i am up there in the composing room talking to a guy by the name of pat gadash. he was so elated that i brought him this twist board, and i had it sealed in a polyethylene bag, but he wanted to see how it is demonstrated, how it was worked. it is a board that is on a pivot, a ball bearing, and it has a tendency to give you certain exercises in twisting your body. so not that i wanted to get in with the hilarity of frolicking, but he asked me to show him, and the other men gathered around. when you get into the movement of a ball bearing disk, your body is free to move. i know you look like you are having a gay time, because naturally if your body is so free of moving, it is going to look that way. i am stating this in that even with my emotional feeling for our beloved president, even to demonstrate the twist board, i did it because someone asked me to. you follow me, gentlemen, as i describe it? chief justice warren. yes; i do. mr. ruby. then we placed the ad in, and if i recall, i requested from pat to put a black border around to show that the ad was in mourning, or something, because we were, everything was in mourning. bill, will you do that for me that you asked a minute ago? you said you wanted to leave the room. mr. decker. i will have everyone leave the room, including myself, if you want to talk about it. you name it, and out we will go. mr. ruby. all right. mr. decker. you want all of us outside? mr. ruby. yes. mr. decker. i will leave tonahill and moore. i am not going to have joe leave. mr. ruby. if you are not going to have joe leave---- mr. decker. moore, his body is responsible to you. his body is responsible to you. mr. ruby. bill, i am not accomplishing anything if they are here, and joe tonahill is here. you asked me anybody i wanted out. mr. decker. jack, this is your attorney. that is your lawyer. mr. ruby. he is not my lawyer. (sheriff decker and law enforcement officers left room.) gentleman, if you want to hear any further testimony, you will have to get me to washington soon, because it has something to do with you, chief warren. do i sound sober enough to tell you this? chief justice warren. yes; go right ahead. mr. ruby. i want to tell the truth, and i can't tell it here. i can't tell it here. does that make sense to you? chief justice warren. well, let's not talk about sense. but i really can't see why you can't tell this commission. mr. ruby. what is your name? mr. ball. joe ball. chief justice warren. mr. joe ball. he is an attorney from los angeles who has been working for me. mr. ruby. do you know belli too? mr. ball. i know of him. mr. ruby. ball was working with him. he knows belli. you know melvin belli? mr. ball. i am not acquainted with him. chief justice warren. no association of any kind. mr. ball. we practice in different cities. chief justice warren. five hundred miles away. mr. ball practices in long beach, and mr. belli practices in san francisco. there is positively no connection between anybody in this room, as far as i know, with mr. belli. i can assure you of that. mr. ruby. where do you stand, moore? mr. moore. well, i am assigned to the commission, jack. mr. ruby. the president assigned you? mr. moore. no; my chief did. and i am not involved in the investigation. i am more of a security officer. mr. ruby. boys, i am in a tough spot, i tell you that. mr. moore. you recall when i talked to you, there were certain things i asked you not to tell me at the time, for certain reasons, that you were probably going to trial at that time, and i respected your position on that and asked you not to tell me certain things. mr. ruby. but this isn't the place for me to tell what i want to tell. mr. moore. the commission is looking into the entire matter, and you are part of it, should be. mr. ruby. chief warren, your life is in danger in this city, do you know that? chief justice warren. no; i don't know that. if that is the thing that you don't want to talk about, you can tell me, if you wish, when this is all over, just between you and me. mr. ruby. no; i would like to talk to you in private. chief justice warren. you may do that when you finish your story. you may tell me that phase of it. mr. ruby. i bet you haven't had a witness like me in your whole investigation, is that correct? chief justice warren. there are many witnesses whose memory has not been as good as yours. i tell you that, honestly. mr. ruby. my reluctance to talk--you haven't had any witness in telling the story, in finding so many problems? chief justice warren. you have a greater problem than any witness we have had. mr. ruby. i have a lot of reasons for having those problems. chief justice warren. i know that, and we want to respect your rights, whatever they may be. and i only want to hear what you are willing to tell us, because i realize that you still have a great problem before you, and i am not trying to press you. i came here because i thought you wanted to tell us the story, and i think the story should be told for the public, and it will eventually be made public. if you want to do that, you are entitled to do that, and if you want to have it verified as the thing can be verified by a polygraph test, you may have that, too. i will undertake to do that for you, but at all events we must first have the story that we are going to check it against. mr. ruby. when are you going back to washington? chief justice warren. i am going back very shortly after we finish this hearing--i am going to have some lunch. mr. ruby. can i make a statement? chief justice warren. yes. mr. ruby. if you request me to go back to washington with you right now, that couldn't be done, could it? chief justice warren. no; it could not be done. it could not be done. there are a good many things involved in that, mr. ruby. mr. ruby. what are they? chief justice warren. well, the public attention that it would attract, and the people who would be around. we have no place there for you to be safe when we take you out, and we are not law enforcement officers, and it isn't our responsibility to go into anything of that kind. and certainly it couldn't be done on a moment's notice this way. mr. ruby. well, from what i read in the paper, they made certain precautions for you coming here, but you got here. chief justice warren. there are no precautions taken at all. mr. ruby. there were some remarks in the paper about some crackpots. chief justice warren. i don't believe everything i read in the paper. mr. moore. in that respect, the chief justice is in public life. people in public life are well aware they don't please everyone, and they get these threats. incidentally, if it is the part about george senator talking about the earl warren society, the chief justice is aware of that phase, and i am sure he would like to hear anything that you have to say if it affects the security. chief justice warren. before you finish the rest of your statement, may i ask you this question, and this is one of the questions we came here to ask you. did you know lee harvey oswald prior to this shooting? mr. ruby. that is why i want to take the lie detector test. just saying no isn't sufficient. chief justice warren. i will afford you that opportunity. mr. ruby. all right. chief justice warren. i will afford you that opportunity. you can't do both of them at one time. mr. ruby. gentlemen, my life is in danger here. not with my guilty plea of execution. do i sound sober enough to you as i say this? chief justice warren. you do. you sound entirely sober. mr. ruby. from the moment i started my testimony, have i sounded as though, with the exception of becoming emotional, have i sounded as though i made sense, what i was speaking about? chief justice warren. you have indeed. i understood everything you have said. if i haven't, it is my fault. mr. ruby. then i follow this up. i may not live tomorrow to give any further testimony. the reason why i add this to this, since you assure me that i have been speaking sense by then, i might be speaking sense by following what i have said, and the only thing i want to get out to the public, and i can't say it here, is with authenticity, with sincerity of the truth of everything and why my act was committed, but it can't be said here. it can be said, it's got to be said amongst people of the highest authority that would give me the benefit of doubt. and following that, immediately give me the lie detector test after i do make the statement. chairman warren, if you felt that your life was in danger at the moment, how would you feel? wouldn't you be reluctant to go on speaking, even though you request me to do so? chief justice warren. i think i might have some reluctance if i was in your position, yes; i think i would. i think i would figure it out very carefully as to whether it would endanger me or not. if you think that anything that i am doing or anything that i am asking you is endangering you in any way, shape, or form, i want you to feel absolutely free to say that the interview is over. mr. ruby. what happens then? i didn't accomplish anything. chief justice warren. no; nothing has been accomplished. mr. ruby. well, then you won't follow up with anything further? chief justice warren. there wouldn't be anything to follow up if you hadn't completed your statement. mr. ruby. you said you have the power to do what you want to do, is that correct? chief justice warren. exactly. mr. ruby. without any limitations? chief justice warren. within the purview of the executive order which established the commission. we have the right to take testimony of anyone we want in this whole situation, and we have the right, if we so choose to do it, to verify that statement in any way that we wish to do it. mr. ruby. but you don't have a right to take a prisoner back with you when you want to? chief justice warren. no; we have the power to subpena witnesses to washington if we want to do it, but we have taken the testimony of or people, i would imagine, here in dallas without going to washington. mr. ruby. yes; but those people aren't jack ruby. chief justice warren. no; they weren't. mr. ruby. they weren't. chief justice warren. now i want you to feel that we are not here to take any advantage of you, because i know that you are in a delicate position, and unless you had indicated not only through your lawyers but also through your sister, who wrote a letter addressed either to me or to mr. rankin saying that you wanted to testify before the commission, unless she had told us that, i wouldn't have bothered you. because i know you do have this case that is not yet finished, and i wouldn't jeopardize your position by trying to insist that you testify. so i want you to feel that you are free to refrain from testifying any time you wish. but i will also be frank with you and say that i don't think it would be to your advantage to tell us as much as you have and then to stop and not tell us the rest. i can't see what advantage that would give you. mr. ruby. the thing is this, that with your power that you have, chief justice warren, and all these gentlemen, too much time has gone by for me to give you any benefit of what i may say now. chief justice warren. no; that isn't a fact, because until we make our findings for the commission, and until we make our report on the case, it is not too late. and there are other witnesses we have who are yet to be examined. so from our standpoint, it is timely. we are not handicapped at all by the lateness of your examination. mr. ruby. well, it is too tragic to talk about. mr. rankin. isn't it true that we waited until very late in our proceedings to talk to mrs. kennedy? chief justice warren. yes; i might say to you that we didn't take mrs. kennedy's statement until day before yesterday. mr. rankin and i took her testimony then. so we are not treating you different from any other witness. mr. ruby. i tell you, gentlemen, my whole family is in jeopardy. my sisters, as to their lives. chief justice warren. yes? mr. ruby. naturally, i am a foregone conclusion. my sisters eva, eileen, and mary, i lost my sisters. my brothers sam, earl, hyman, and myself naturally--my in-laws, harold kaminsky, marge ruby, the wife of earl, and phyllis, the wife of sam ruby, they are in jeopardy of loss of their lives. yet they have, just because they are blood related to myself--does that sound serious enough to you, chief justice warren? chief justice warren. nothing could be more serious, if that is the fact. but your sister, i don't know whether it was your sister eva or your other sister---- mr. ruby. eileen wrote you a letter. chief justice warren. wrote the letter to me and told us that you would like to testify, and that is one of the reasons that we came down here. mr. ruby. but unfortunately, when did you get the letter, chief justice warren? chief justice warren. it was a long time ago, i admit. i think it was, let's see, roughly between and months ago. mr. ruby. yes. chief justice warren. i think it was; yes. mr. ruby. at that time when you first got the letter and i was begging joe tonahill and the other lawyers to know the truth about me, certain things that are happening now wouldn't be happening at this particular time. chief justice warren. yes? mr. ruby. because then they would have known the truth about jack ruby and his emotional breakdown. chief justice warren. yes? mr. ruby. of why that sunday morning--that thought never entered my mind prior to that sunday morning when i took it upon myself to try to be a martyr or some screwball, you might say. but i felt very emotional and very carried away for mrs. kennedy, that with all the strife she had gone through--i had been following it pretty well--that someone owed it to our beloved president that she shouldn't be expected to come back to face trial of this heinous crime. and i have never had the chance to tell that, to back it up, to prove it. consequently, right at this moment i am being victimized as a part of a plot in the world's worst tragedy and crime at this moment. months back had i been given a chance--i take that back. sometime back a police officer of the dallas police department wanted to know how i got into the building. and i don't know whether i requested a lie detector test or not, but my attorney wasn't available. when you are a defendant in the case, you say "speak to your attorney," you know. but that was a different time. it was after the trial, whenever it happened. at this moment, lee harvey oswald isn't guilty of committing the crime of assassinating president kennedy. jack ruby is. how can i fight that, chief justice warren? chief justice warren. well now, i want to say, mr. ruby, that as far as this commission is concerned, there is no implication of that in what we are doing. mr. ruby. all right, there is a certain organization here---- chief justice warren. that i can assure you. mr. ruby. there is an organization here, chief justice warren, if it takes my life at this moment to say it, and bill decker said be a man and say it, there is a john birch society right now in activity, and edwin walker is one of the top men of this organization--take it for what it is worth, chief justice warren. unfortunately for me, for me giving the people the opportunity to get in power, because of the act i committed, has put a lot of people in jeopardy with their lives. don't register with you, does it? chief justice warren. no; i don't understand that. mr. ruby. would you rather i just delete what i said and just pretend that nothing is going on? chief justice warren. i would not indeed. i am only interested in what you want to tell this commission. that is all i am interested in. mr. ruby. well, i said my life, i won't be living long now. i know that. my family's lives will be gone. when i left my apartment that morning---- chief justice warren. what morning? mr. ruby. sunday morning. chief justice warren. sunday morning. mr. ruby. let's go back. saturday i watched rabbi seligman. any of you watch it that saturday morning? chief justice warren. no; i didn't happen to hear it. mr. ruby. he went ahead and eulogized that here is a man that fought in every battle, went to every country, and had to come back to his own country to be shot in the back [starts crying]. i must be a great actor, i tell you that. chief justice warren. no. mr. ruby. that created a tremendous emotional feeling for me, the way he said that. prior to all the other times, i was carried away. then that saturday night, i didn't do anything but visit a little club over here and had a coca-cola, because i was sort of depressed. a fellow that owns the pago club, bob norton, and he knew something was wrong with me in the certain mood i was in. and i went home and that weekend, the sunday morning, and saw a letter to caroline, two columns about a -inch area. someone had written a letter to caroline. the most heartbreaking letter. i don't remember the contents. do you remember that? mr. moore. i think i saw it. mr. ruby. yes; and alongside that letter on the same sheet of paper was a small comment in the newspaper that, i don't know how it was stated, that mrs. kennedy may have to come back for the trial of lee harvey oswald. that caused me to go like i did; that caused me to go like i did. i don't know, chief justice, but i got so carried away. and i remember prior to that thought, there has never been another thought in my mind; i was never malicious toward this person. no one else requested me to do anything. i never spoke to anyone about attempting to do anything. no subversive organization gave me any idea. no underworld person made any effort to contact me. it all happened that sunday morning. the last thing i read was that mrs. kennedy may have to come back to dallas for trial for lee harvey oswald, and i don't know what bug got ahold of me. i don't know what it is, but i am going to tell the truth word for word. i am taking a pill called preludin. it is a harmless pill, and it is very easy to get in the drugstore. it isn't a highly prescribed pill. i use it for dieting. i don't partake of that much food. i think that was a stimulus to give me an emotional feeling that suddenly i felt, which was so stupid, that i wanted to show my love for our faith, being of the jewish faith, and i never used the term and i don't want to go into that--suddenly the feeling, the emotional feeling came within me that someone owed this debt to our beloved president to save her the ordeal of coming back. i don't know why that came through my mind. and i drove past main street, past the county building, and there was a crowd already gathered there. and i guess i thought i knew he was going to be moved at o'clock, i don't know. i listened to the radio; and i passed a crowd and it looked--i am repeating myself--and i took it for granted he had already been moved. and i parked my car in the lot across from the western union. prior to that, i got a call from a little girl--she wanted some money--that worked for me, and i said, "can't you wait till payday?" and she said, "jack, you are going to be closed." so my purpose was to go to the western union--my double purpose--but the thought of doing, committing the act wasn't until i left my apartment. sending the wire was when i had the phone call--or the money order. i drove down main street--there was a little incident i left out, that i started to go down a driveway, but i wanted to go by the wreaths, and i saw them and started to cry again. then i drove, parked the car across from the western union, went into the western union, sent the money order, whatever it was, walked the distance from the western union to the ramp--i didn't sneak in. i didn't linger in there. i didn't crouch or hide behind anyone, unless the television camera can make it seem that way. there was an officer talking--i don't know what rank he had--talking to a sam pease in a car parked up on the curb. i walked down those few steps, and there was the person that--i wouldn't say i saw red--it was a feeling i had for our beloved president and mrs. kennedy, that he was insignificant to what my purpose was. and when i walked down the ramp--i would say there was an -foot clearance--not that i wanted to be a hero, or i didn't realize that even if the officer would have observed me, the klieg lights, but i can't take that. i did not mingle with the crowd. there was no one near me when i walked down that ramp, because if you will time the time i sent the money order, i think it was : sunday morning. i think the actual act was committed--i take that back--was it o'clock? you should know this. mr. moore. : . mr. ruby. no; when oswald was shot. mr. moore. i understood it to be : . mr. ruby. the clock stopped and said : . i was watching on that thing; yes. then it must have been : , closer to . that is the timing when i left the western union to the time of the bottom of the ramp. you wouldn't have time enough to have any conspiracy, to be self-saving, to mingle with the crowd, as it was told about me. i realize it is a terrible thing i have done, and it was a stupid thing, but i just was carried away emotionally. do you follow that? chief justice warren. yes; i do indeed, every word. mr. ruby. i had the gun in my right hip pocket, and impulsively, if that is the correct word here, i saw him, and that is all i can say. and i didn't care what happened to me. i think i used the words, "you killed my president, you rat." the next thing, i was down on the floor. i said, "i am jack ruby. you all know me." i never used anything malicious, nothing like s.o.b. i never said that i wanted to get three more off, as they stated. the only words, and i was highly emotional; to ray hall--he interrogated more than any other person down there--all i believe i said to him was, "i didn't want mrs. kennedy to come back to trial." and i forget what else. and i used a little expression like being of the jewish faith, i wanted to show that we love our president, even though we are not of the same faith. and i have a friend of mine--do you mind if it is a slipshod story? chief justice warren. no; you tell us in your own way. mr. ruby. a fellow whom i sort of idolized is of the catholic faith, and a gambler. naturally in my business you meet people of various backgrounds. and the thought came, we were very close, and i always thought a lot of him, and i knew that kennedy, being catholic, i knew how heartbroken he was, and even his picture--of this mr. mcwillie--flashed across me, because i have a great fondness for him. all that blended into the thing that, like a screwball, the way it turned out, that i thought that i would sacrifice myself for the few moments of saving mrs. kennedy the discomfiture of coming back to trial. now all these things of my background, i should have been the last person in the world to want to be a martyr. it happens, doesn't it, chief warren? i mean, for instance, i have been in the night club business, a burlesque house. it was a means of a livelihood. i knew persons of notorious backgrounds years ago in chicago. i was with the union back in chicago, and i left the union when i found out the notorious organization had moved in there. it was in . then recently, i had to make so many numerous calls that i am sure you know of. am i right? because of trying to survive in my business. my unfair competition had been running certain shows that we were restricted to run by regulation of the union, but they violated all the rules of the union, and i didn't violate it, and consequently i was becoming insolvent because of it. all those calls were made with only, in relation to seeing if they can help out, with the american guild of variety artists. does that confirm a lot of things you have heard? every person i have called, and sometimes you may not even know a person intimately, you sort of tell them, well, you are stranded down here and you want some help--if they know of any official of the american guild of variety artists to help me. because my competitors were putting me out of business. i even flew to new york to see joe glazer, and he called bobby faye. he was the national president. that didn't help. he called barney ross and joey adams. all these phone calls were related not in anyway involved with the underworld, because i have been away from chicago years down in dallas. as a matter of fact, i even called a mr.--hold it before i say it--headed the american federation of labor--i can't think--in the state of texas--miller. chief justice warren. i don't know. mr. ruby. is there a deutsch i. maylor? i called a mr. maylor here in texas to see if he could help me out. i want to set you gentlemen straight on all the telephone calls i had. this was a long time prior to what has happened. and the only association i had with those calls, the only questions that i inquired about, was if they could help me with the american guild of variety artists, to see that they abolished it, because it was unfair to professional talent, abolish them from putting on their shows in dallas. that is the only reason i made those calls. where do we go from there? chief justice warren. well, i will go back to the original question that i asked you. did you ever know oswald? mr. ruby. no; let me add--you are refreshing my mind about a few things. can i ask one thing? did you all talk to mr. mcwillie? i am sure you have. voice. yes. mr. ruby. he always wanted me to come down to havana, cuba; invited me down there, and i didn't want to leave my business because i had to watch over it. he was a key man over the tropicana down there. that was during our good times. was in harmony with our enemy of our present time. chief justice warren. yes? mr. ruby. i refused. i couldn't make it. finally he sent me tickets to come down, airplane tickets. i made the trip down there via new orleans, and so i stayed at the volk's apartments, and i was with him constantly. and i was bored with the gambling, because i don't gamble, and there is nothing exciting unless you can speak their language, which is spanish, i believe. and that was the only environment. that was in august of . any thought of ever being close to havana, cuba, i called him frequently because he was down there, and he was the last person to leave, if i recall, when they had to leave, when he left the casino. as a matter of fact, on the plane, if i recall, i had an article he sent me, and i wanted to get it published because i idolized mcwillie. he is a pretty nice boy, and i happened to be idolizing him. when the plane left havana and landed in the united states, some schoolteacher remarked that the united states is not treating castro right. when they landed in the united states, this mr. louis mcwillie slugged this guy for making that comment. so i want you to know, as far as him having any subversive thoughts, and i wanted tony to put it in the paper here. that is how much i thought of mr. mcwillie. and that is my only association. the only other association with him was, there was a gentleman here that sells guns. he has a hardware store on singleton avenue. have i told this to you gentlemen? it is ray's hardware. his name is ray brantley. this was--i don't recall when he called me, but he was a little worried of the new regime coming in, and evidently he wanted some protection. he called me or sent me a letter that i should call ray brantley. he wanted some four little cobra guns--big shipment. so me, i should say myself rather, feeling no harm, i didn't realize, because he wasn't sending them to me, and i thought there was no crime, the man wanted protection, he is earning a livelihood. i called ray brantley and i said, "ray, mcwillie called me." i don't remember if he sent me a letter or he called. he said he wants four little cobras, or something like that. he said "i know mac. i have been doing business with him for a long time." meaning with reference to when he was living in texas. he did a lot of hunting and things like that. chief justice warren. yes? mr. ruby. that was the only relationship i had of any mention, outside of phone calls, to mr. mcwillie, or any person from havana, cuba. chief justice warren. when was that? mr. ruby. now the guns--am i correct? did you ever go to check on it? on ray brantley? mr. moore. no. mr. ruby. he denies i ever called. evidently he feels, maybe he feels it would be illegal to send guns out of the country. i don't know if you gentlemen know the law. i don't know the law. chief justice warren. i don't know. mr. ruby. i kept--did i tell you this, joe, about this? mr. tonahill. yes; you did. mr. ruby. that i wanted someone to go to ray brantley? mr. tonahill. yes. mr. ruby. when phil burleson came back with a letter signed, an affidavit that ray brantley said he never did receive a call from me, and the only gun he sent to mcwillie was to the vegas, but it came back that they didn't pick it up because it was a c.o.d. order. this definitely would do me more harm, because if i tell my story that i called ray brantley, and he denies that he ever got a call from me, definitely that makes it look like i am hiding something. haven't i felt that right along, joe? mr. tonahill. you sure have, jack. mr. ruby. now, the reason i am telling you these things, i never knew lee harvey oswald. the first time i ever have seen him was the time in the assembly room when they brought him out, when he had some sort of a shiner on his eye. chief justice warren. when was that little incident about the cobras? about what year? that is all i am interested in. mr. ruby. could have been prior to the early part of . chief justice warren. yes; all right. mr. ruby. that is the only call i made. and as a matter of fact, i didn't even follow up to inquire of this mr. brantley, whether he received it or what the recourse was. that is why i tell you, chief justice warren--who is this new gentleman, may i ask? mr. rankin. this is mr. storey from your community, a lawyer who is working with the attorney general, and mr. jaworski, in connection with watching the work of the commission so that they will be satisfied as to the quality of the work done insofar as the state of texas is concerned. (pause for reporter to change paper, and ruby asked about one of the gentlemen, to which chief justice warren replied as follows): chief justice warren (referring to mr. specter). he has been working with us on the commission since very close to the beginning now. mr. rankin. how long did you spend in cuba on this trip? mr. ruby. eight days. a lot of your tourists were there. as a matter of fact, a lot of group tourists were going down, students of schools. i mean, he had a way of purchasing tickets from havana that i think he purchased them at a lesser price. he bought them from the travel agent in the capri hotel. he bought them--did you meet mcwillie? mr. moore. i didn't. mr. rankin. he was checked by the commission in connection with this work. chief justice warren. there was some story in one of the papers that you had been interested in shipping jeeps down to cuba. was there anything to that at all? mr. ruby. no; but this was the earlier part, when the first time castro had ever invaded cuba. there was even a government article that they would need jeeps. i don't recall what it was, but i never had the facilities or the capabilities of knowing where to get jeeps. but probably in conversation with other persons--you see, it is a new land, and they have to have a lot of things. as a matter of fact, the u.s. government was wanting persons to help them at that particular time when they threw out the dictator, batista. and one particular time there was a gentleman that smuggled guns to castro. i think i told you that, mr. moore; i don't remember. mr. moore. i don't recall that. mr. ruby. i think his name was longley out of bay--something--texas, on the bayshore. and somehow he was, i read the article about him, that he was given a jail term for smuggling guns to castro. this is the early part of their revolution. chief justice warren. before the batista government fell? mr. ruby. yes; i think he had a boat, and he lived somewhere in bay something, bayshore, in the center part of texas. do you know him, mr. storey? do you know this man? mr. storey. no; i don't know him. mr. ruby. how can i prove my authenticity of what i have stated here today? chief justice warren. well, you have testified under oath, and i don't even know that there is anything to disprove what you have said. mr. ruby. no; because i will say this. you don't know if there is anything to disprove, but at this moment, there is a certain organization in this area that has been indoctrinated, that i am the one that was in the plot to assassinate our president. mr. rankin. would you tell us what that is? mr. ruby. the john birch society. mr. rankin. can you tell us what basis you have for that, mr. ruby? mr. ruby. just a feeling of it. mr. warren, you don't recall when i--friday night after leaving the times herald, i went to my apartment and very impatiently awakened george senator. as a matter of fact, used the words, as i state, "you will have to get up, george. i want you to go with me." and he had been in bed for a couple of hours, which was about, i imagine, about : or a quarter to in the morning. and i called the club and i asked this kid larry if he knew how to pack a polaroid, and he said "yes." and i said, "get up." and we went down and picked up larry. and in the meantime, i don't recall if i stopped at the post office to find out his box number of this bernard weissman. i think the box number was , or something to that; and then there was, it came to my mind when i left the times herald--i am skipping back--why i had awakened george. i recall seeing a sign on a certain billboard "impeach earl warren." you have heard something about that? chief justice warren. i read something in the paper, yes; that is all. mr. ruby. and it came from new bedford, or massachusetts; i don't recall what the town was. and there was a similar number to that, but i thought at the time it would be the same number of , but it was . that is the reason i went down there to take the polaroid picture of it, because of that remaining in the city at the time. what happened to the picture, i don't know. i asked jim bowie or alexander to tell you. mr. rankin. did you know weissman before that? mr. ruby. never knew him. when i said jim bowie, no one says a word. mr. bowie. we never have seen them. mr. ruby. they were in my person. mr. bowie. but no evidence came? mr. ruby. no; it did not, never. as a matter of fact, i went to the post office to check on box . i even inquired with the man in charge of where you purchase the boxes, and i said to him, "who bought this box?" and he said, "i can't give you the information. all i know is, it is a legitimate business box purchase." and i checked the various contents of mail there. mr. rankin. did you know officer tippit? mr. ruby. i knew there was three tippits on the force. the only one i knew used to work for the special services, and i am certain this wasn't the tippit, this wasn't the man. mr. rankin. the man that was murdered. there was a story that you were seen sitting in your carousel club with mr. weissman, officer tippit, and another who has been called a rich oil man, at one time shortly before the assassination. can you tell us anything about that? mr. ruby. who was the rich oil man? mr. rankin. can you remember? we haven't been told. we are just trying to find out anything that you know about him. mr. ruby. i am the one that made such a big issue of bernard weissman's ad. maybe you do things to cover up, if you are capable of doing it. as a matter of fact, saturday afternoon we went over to the turf bar lounge, and it was a whole hullabaloo, and i showed the pictures "impeach earl warren" to bellocchio, and he saw the pictures and got very emotional. and bellocchio said, "why did the newspaper take this ad of weissman?" and bellocchio said, "i have got to leave dallas." and suddenly after making that statement, i realized it is his incapability, and suddenly you do things impulsively, and suddenly you realize if you love the city, you stay here and you make the best of it. and there were witnesses. i said, "the city was good enough for you all before this. now you feel that way about it." and that was bellocchio. as far as tippit, it is not tippitts, it is not tippitts it is tippit. mr. rankin. this weissman and the rich oil man, did you ever have a conversation with them? mr. ruby. there was only a few. bill rudman from the ymca, and i haven't seen him in years. and there is a bill howard, but he is not a rich oil man. he owns the stork club now. he used to dabble in oil. chief justice warren. this story was given by a lawyer by the name of mark lane, who is representing mrs. marguerite oswald, the mother of lee harvey oswald, and it was in the paper, so we subpenaed him, and he testified that someone had given him information to the effect that a week or two before president kennedy was assassinated, that in your carousel club you and weissman and tippit, officer tippit, the one who was killed, and a rich oil man had an interview or conversation for an hour or two. and we asked him who it was that told him, and he said that it was confidential and he couldn't tell at the moment, but that he would find out for us if whether he could be released or not from his confidential relationship. he has never done it, and we have written him several letters asking him to disclose the name of that person, and he has never complied. mr. ruby. isn't that foolish? if a man is patriotic enough in the first place, who am i to be concerned if he wasn't an informer. i am incarcerated, nothing to be worried about anyone hurting me. chief justice warren. mr. ruby, i am not questioning your story at all. i wanted you to know the background of this thing, and to know that it was with us only hearsay. but i did feel that our record should show that we would ask you the question and that you would answer it, and you have answered it. mr. ruby. how many days prior to the assassination was that? chief justice warren. my recollection is that it was a week or two. is that correct? mr. ruby. did anyone have any knowledge that their beloved president was going to visit here prior to that time, or what is the definite time that they knew he was coming to dallas? chief justice warren. well, i don't know just what those dates are. mr. ruby. i see. chief justice warren. i just don't know. well, we wanted to ask you that question, because this man had so testified, and we have been trying ever since to get him to give the source of his information, but he will not do it, so we will leave that matter as it is. mr. ruby. no; i am as innocent regarding any conspiracy as any of you gentlemen in the room, and i don't want anything to be run over lightly. i want you to dig into it with any biting, any question that might embarrass me, or anything that might bring up my background, which isn't so terribly spotted--i have never been a criminal--i have never been in jail--i know when you live in the city of chicago and you are in the livelihood of selling tickets to sporting events, your lucrative patrons are some of these people, but you don't mean anything to those people. you may know them as you get acquainted with them at the sporting events or the ball park. chief justice warren. the prizefights? mr. ruby. the prizefights. if that was your means of livelihood, yet you don't have no other affiliation with them, so when i say i know them, or what i have read from stories of personalities that are notorious, that is the extent of my involvement in any criminal activity. i have never been a bookmaker. i have never stolen for a living. i am not a gangster. i have never used a goon squad for union activities. all i was was a representative to sound out applications for the american federation of labor, and if the employees would sign it, we would accept them as members. i never knew what a goon looked like in chicago, with the exception when i went to the service. i never belonged to any subversive organization. i don't know any subversive people that are against my beloved country. mr. rankin. you have never been connected with the communist party? mr. ruby. never have. all i have ever done in my life--i had a very rough start in life, but anything i have done, i at least try to do it in good taste, whatever i have been active in. mr. rankin. there was a story that you had a gun with you during the showup that you described in the large room there. mr. ruby. i will be honest with you. i lied about it. it isn't so. i didn't have a gun. but in order to make my defense more accurate, to save your life, that is the reason that statement was made. mr. rankin. it would be quite helpful to the commission if you could--in the first place, i want to get the trip to cuba. was that in ? mr. ruby. yes; because i had to buy a $ ticket, a pass to get through florida. mr. rankin. did you have any other trip to cuba? mr. ruby. never; that is the only one that i made. i stayed at the volk's apartments with mr. mcwillie, lived in his apartment. ate directly in a place called wolf's, downstairs. wouldn't know how to speak their language. i wouldn't know how to communicate with them. i probably had two dates from meeting some young ladies i got to dancing with, because my dinners were served in the tropicana. one thing i forgot to tell you--you are bringing my mind back to a few things--the owners, the greatest that have been expelled from cuba, are the fox brothers. they own the tropicana. mr. rankin. who are the fox brothers? mr. ruby. martin fox and i can't think of the other name. mr. rankin. do you know where they are located now? mr. ruby. they are in miami, fla. they know everything about mcwillie, i heard; and know the officials. i met mcwillie because he came to the club, and he came to the club to look over the show. and you get to talk to people and meet a lot of different types of people. the fox brothers came to dallas--i don't know which one it was--to collect a debt that some man owed the cotton gin co. here. do you know their name, mr. bowie? mr. bowie. murray, or something. mr. ruby. he gave some bad checks on a gambling debt, and they came to visit me. the lawyer, i think, is mark lane. that is the attorney that was killed in new york? chief justice warren. that is the fellow who represents, or did represent mrs. marguerite oswald. i think i read in the paper where he no longer represents her. mr. rankin. he is still alive though. chief justice warren. oh, yes. mr. ruby. there was one lane that was killed in a taxicab. i thought he was an attorney in dallas. chief justice warren. that was a dave lane. mr. ruby. there is a very prominent attorney in dallas, mccord. mccord represents the fox brothers here. they called me because the fox brothers wanted to see me, and i came down to the hotel. and mrs. mcwillie--mr. mcwillie was married to her at that time--and if i recall, i didn't show them off to the airport at that time. this is when they were still living in havana, the fox brothers. we had dinner at--how do you pronounce that restaurant at love field? luau? that serves this chinese food. dave mccord, i was in his presence, and i was invited out to dinner, and there was an attorney by the name of leon. is he associated with mccord? and there was a mcclain. chief justice warren. alfred was killed in a taxi in new york. mr. ruby. he was at this dinner meeting i had with mccord. i don't know if mrs. mcwillie was along. and one of the fox brothers, because they had just been awarded the case that this person owns, this gin co., that was compelled to pay off. mr. rankin. i think, mr. ruby, it would be quite helpful to the commission if you could tell, as you recall it, just what you said to mr. sorrels and the others after the shooting of lee harvey oswald. can you recall that? mr. ruby. the only one i recall mr. sorrels in, there were some incorrect statements made at this time. mr. rankin. can you tell us what you said? congressman ford. first, tell us when this took place. mr. rankin. how soon after the shooting occurred? mr. ruby. well, ray hall was the first one that interrogated me. wanted to know my whole background. mr. rankin. can you tell us how soon it was? within a few minutes after the shooting? mr. ruby. no; i waited in a little room there somewhere upstairs in--i don't know what floor it was. i don't recall. mr. rankin. where did this occur, on the third floor? mr. ruby. one of those floors. i don't know whether it was the third or second. if you are up on an elevator---- mr. rankin. can you give us any idea of the time after the shooting? mr. ruby. i spent an hour with mr. hall, ray hall. and i was very much, i was very much broken up emotionally, and i constantly repeated that i didn't want mrs. kennedy to come back to trial, and those were my words, constantly repeated to mr. hall. and i heard there was a statement made--now i am skipping--and then i gave mr. hall my complete background about things he wanted to know, my earlier background going back from the years, and i guess there was nothing else to say to hall because as long as i stated why i did it--it is not like planning a crime and you are confessing something. i already confessed, and all it took is one sentence why i did it. now what else could i have said that you think i could have said? refresh my memory a little bit. mr. rankin. there was a conversation with mr. sorrels in which you told him about the matter. do you remember that? mr. ruby. the only thing i ever recall i said to mr. ray hall and sorrels was, i said, "being of jewish faith, i wanted to show my love for my president and his lovely wife." after i said whatever i said, then a statement came out that someone introduced mr. sorrels to me and i said, "what are you, a newsman?" or something to that effect. which is really--what i am trying to say is, the way it sounded is like i was looking for publicity and inquiring if you are a newsman, i wanted to see you. but i am certain--i don't recall definitely, but i know in my right mind, because i know my motive for doing it, and certainly to gain publicity to take a chance of being mortally wounded, as i said before, and who else could have timed it so perfectly by seconds. if it were timed that way, then someone in the police department is guilty of giving the information as to when lee harvey oswald was coming down. i never made a statement. i never inquired from the television man what time is lee harvey oswald coming down. because really, a man in his right mind would never ask that question. i never made the statement "i wanted to get three more off. someone had to do it. you wouldn't do it." i never made those statements. i never called the man by any obscene name, because as i stated earlier, there was no malice in me. he was insignificant, to my feelings for my love for mrs. kennedy and our beloved president. he was nothing comparable to them, so i can't explain it. i never used any words--as a matter of fact, there were questions at the hearing with roy pryor and a few others--i may have used one word "a little weasel" or something, but i didn't use it. i don't remember, because roy said it. if he said i did, i may have said it. i never made the statement to anyone that i intended to get him. i never used the obscene words that were stated. anything i said was with emotional feeling of i didn't want mrs. kennedy to come back to trial. representative ford. it has been alleged that you went out to parkland hospital. mr. ruby. no; i didn't go there. they tried to ask me. my sisters asked me. some people told my sister that you were there. i am of sound mind. i never went there. everything that transpired during the tragedy, i was at the morning news building. congressman ford. you didn't go out there subsequent to the assassination? mr. ruby. no; in other words, like somebody is trying to make me something of a martyr in that case. no; i never did. does this conflict with my story and yours in great length? mr. moore. substantially the same, jack, as well as i remember. mr. rankin. did you say anything about people of your religion have guts, or something like that? mr. ruby. i said it. i never said it up there. i said, i could have said, "weren't you afraid of getting your head blown off?" i said, "well, to be truthful, i have a little nerve." i could have said that. now i could have said to the doctor that was sent to me, bromberg, because there is a certain familiarity you have, because it is like you have an attorney representing you, it is there. i mean, it is there. but i did say this. mcwillie made a statement about me, something to the effect that "he is considered a pretty rough guy," this mcwillie. he said, "one thing about jack ruby, he runs this club and no one runs over him." and you have a different type of entertainment here than any other part of the country, our type of entertainment. but i don't recall that. i could have said the sentimental feeling that i may have used. representative ford. when you flew to cuba, where did you go from dallas en route? what was the step-by-step process by which you arrived at havana? mr. ruby. i think i told mr. moore i stopped in new orleans. sometime i stopped in new orleans, and i don't remember if i stopped in florida or new orleans, but i know i did stop in new orleans, because i bought some carioca rum coming back. i know i was to miami on a stopover. it could have been on the way back. i only went to cuba once, so naturally, when i bought the carioca rum, there was a couple of fellows that sell tickets for delta airlines, and they know me like i know you, and i am sure you gentlemen have spoken to them, and they were to tell me where to go in havana, and have a ball, and i told them why i was going there, and who i was going to look up, and everything else. representative ford. they were delta airlines employees in new orleans or dallas? mr. ruby. no; in new orleans. evidently i went out to the delta airlines at love field and caught the plane. i may have taken the flight--here is what could have happened. i could have made a double stop from havana on the way back in taking in miami, and then taking another plane to new orleans, i am not certain. but i only made one trip to havana. yet i know i was in miami, fla. and i was in new orleans. and the next time i went to new orleans, when i tried to look up some showgirl by the name of jada, i stopped in to see the same fellows at delta airlines. mr. rankin. do you recall going up the elevator after the shooting of oswald? mr. ruby. that is so small to remember, i guess it is automatic, you know. mr. rankin. did you have this gun a long while that you did the shooting with? mr. ruby. yes. mr. rankin. you didn't carry it all the time? mr. ruby. i did. i had it in a little bag with money constantly. i carry my money. chief justice warren. congressman, do you have anything further? mr. ruby. you can get more out of me. let's not break up too soon. representative ford. when you got to havana, who met you in havana? mr. ruby. mcwillie. now here is what happened. one of the fox brothers came to visit me in dallas with his wife. they came to the vegas club with mrs. mcwillie, and we had taken some pictures. x 's. evidently the foxes were in exile at that time, because when i went to visit mcwillie, when he sent me the plane tickets, they looked through my luggage and they saw a photograph of mr. fox and his wife. they didn't interrogate, but they went through everything and held me up for hours. representative ford. castro employees? mr. ruby. yes; because evidently, in my ignorance, i didn't realize i was bringing a picture that they knew was a bitter enemy. at that time they knew that the fox brothers weren't going to jail, or something was going to happen. whether it was they were in exile at that time. i don't know. but they came to my club, the vegas club, and we had taken pictures. mr. mcwillie was waiting for me, and he saw me go through the customs line for a couple of hours, and he said, "jack, they never did this to anyone before." evidently, they had me pretty well lined up as to where i come in the picture of mr. rivera fox. i can't think of his name. representative ford. you spent days there in havana? mr. ruby. yes; approximately. representative ford. and you stayed at the apartment of mr.---- mr. ruby. volk's apartments. i never used the phone. i wouldn't know how to use the phone. probably to call back to dallas. and the only time, mr. mcwillie had to be at the club early, so i remained a little later in town--not often--because i saved money when i rode with him, because they charge you quite a bit. but i didn't want to get there too early, because to get there at o'clock wasn't very lively. because i would always be with him for the complete evening. we leave the place and stop somewhere to get coffee, a little dugout--i saw ava gardner down there at the time when i was there. she was visiting there. representative ford. what prompted you to leave at the end of days? mr. ruby. i was bored because gambling isn't my profession, and when you have a business to run, and there weren't many tourists i could get acquainted with there. i went to the capri rooftop to go swimming, and went to the nacional to go swimming once. representative ford. did you ever go to mexico? have you ever been to mexico? mr. ruby. the only time, or years ago, . representative ford. this trip to cuba was the only time you left the country other than military service? mr. ruby. actually i didn't leave in the military. i was stationed three and a half years here in the states. let's see, never out of the united states except at one time to havana, cuba. chief justice warren. now you said there were some other things. would you mind telling us anything you have on your mind? mr. ruby. no; because as i said earlier, you seem to have gotten the juicy part of the story up to now in the various spasmodic way of my telling it. how valuable am i to you to give you all this information? chief justice warren. well, how valuable is rather an indefinite term, but i think it is very helpful to our commission report. i think the report would have been deficient if it had not been for this interview we have had with you. so we are interested in anything that you would like to tell us, in your own language. mr. ruby. the only thing is this. if i cannot get these tests you give, it is pretty haphazard to tell you the things i should tell you. mr. moore, you seem to have known more about my interrogation than anybody else, right? mr. moore. i think you have told us about everything you told me. mr. rankin. it isn't entirely clear how you feel that your family and you yourself are threatened by your telling what you have to the commission. how do you come to the conclusion that they might be killed? will you tell us a little bit more about that, if you can? mr. ruby. well, assuming that, as i stated before, some persons are accusing me falsely of being part of the plot--naturally, in all the time from over months ago, my family has been so interested in helping me. mr. rankin. by that, you mean a party to the plot of oswald? mr. ruby. that i was party to a plot to silence oswald. all right now, when your family believes you and knows your mannerisms and your thoughts, and knows your sincerity, they have lived with you all your life and know your emotional feelings and your patriotism--on the surface, they see me only as the guilty assailant of oswald, and by helping me like they have, going all out. my brother who has a successful business, i know he is going to be killed. and i haven't seen him in years. and suddenly he feels that he wants to help me, because he believes that i couldn't be any further involved than the actual---- when i told him i did it because of mrs. kennedy, that is all he had to hear, because i would never involve my family or involve him in a conspiracy. everyone haven't let me down. because they read the newspapers away from dallas that stated certain facts about me, but they are untrue, because they wouldn't come out and put those things in the newspapers that they should be putting in; and people outside of dallas read the dallas newspapers and are all in sympathy with me, as far as the country itself. that they felt, well, jack did it. they probably felt they would do the same thing. that sympathy isn't going to help me, because the people that have the power here, they have a different verdict. they already have me as the accused assassin of our beloved president. now if i sound screwy telling you this, then i must be screwy. chief justice warren. mr. ruby, i think you are entitled to a statement to this effect, because you have been frank with us and have told us your story. i think i can say to you that there has been no witness before this commission out of the hundreds we have questioned who has claimed to have any personal knowledge that you were a party to any conspiracy to kill our president. mr. ruby. yes; but you don't know this area here. chief justice warren. no; i don't vouch for anything except that i think i am correct in that, am i not? mr. rankin. that is correct. chief justice warren. i just wanted to tell you before our own commission, and i might say to you also that we have explored the situation. mr. ruby. i know, but i want to say this to you. if certain people have the means and want to gain something by propagandizing something to their own use, they will make ways to present certain things that i do look guilty. chief justice warren. well. i will make this additional statement to you, that if any witness should testify before the commission that you were, to their knowledge, a party to any conspiracy to assassinate the president, i assure you that we will give you the opportunity to deny it and to take any tests that you may desire to so disprove it. i don't anticipate that there will be any such testimony, but should there be, we will give you that opportunity. does that seem fair? mr. ruby. no; that isn't going to save my family. chief justice warren. well, we can't do everything at once. mr. ruby. i am in a tough spot, and i don't know what the solution can be to save me. and i know our wonderful president, lyndon johnson, as soon as he was the president of his country, he appointed you as head of this group. but through certain falsehoods that have been said about me to other people, the john birch society, i am as good as guilty as the accused assassin of president kennedy. how can you remedy that, mr. warren? do any of you men have any ways of remedying that? mr. bill decker said be a man and speak up. i am making a statement now that i may not live the next hour when i walk out of this room. now it is the most fantastic story you have ever heard in a lifetime. i did something out of the goodness of my heart. unfortunately, chief earl warren, had you been around or months ago, and i know your hands were tied, you couldn't do it, and immediately the president would have gotten ahold of my true story, or whatever would have been said about me, a certain organization wouldn't have so completely formed now, so powerfully, to use me because i am of the jewish extraction, jewish faith, to commit the most dastardly crime that has ever been committed. can you understand now in visualizing, what happened, what powers, what momentum has been carried on to create this feeling of mass feeling against my people, against certain people that were against them prior to their power? that goes over your head, doesn't it? chief justice warren. well, i don't quite get the full significance of it, mr. ruby. i know what you feel about the john birch society. mr. ruby. very powerful. chief justice warren. i think it is powerful, yes i do. of course, i don't have all the information that you feel you have on that subject. mr. ruby. unfortunately, you don't have, because it is too late. and i wish that our beloved president, lyndon johnson, would have delved deeper into the situation, hear me, not to accept just circumstantial facts about my guilt or innocence, and would have questioned to find out the truth about me before he relinquished certain powers to these certain people. chief justice warren. well, i am afraid i don't know what power you believe he relinquished to them. i think that it is difficult to understand what you have to say. mr. ruby. i want to say this to you. the jewish people are being exterminated at this moment. consequently, a whole new form of government is going to take over our country, and i know i won't live to see you another time. do i sound sort of screwy in telling you these things? chief justice warren. no; i think that is what you believe, or you wouldn't tell it under your oath. mr. ruby. but it is a very serious situation. i guess it is too late to stop it, isn't it? all right, i want to ask you this. all you men have been chosen by the president for this committee, is that correct? chief justice warren. representative ford and i are the only members of the commission that are here. mr. rankin of the commission is employed as our chief counsel. mr. rankin employed mr. specter and mr. ball as members of the staff. you know who the other gentlemen here are. you know that mr. moore is a member of the secret service, and he has been a liaison officer with our staff since the commission was formed. representative ford. are there any questions that ought to be asked to help clarify the situation that you described? mr. ruby. there is only one thing. if you don't take me back to washington tonight to give me a chance to prove to the president that i am not guilty, then you will see the most tragic thing that will ever happen. and if you don't have the power to take me back, i won't be around to be able to prove my innocence or guilt. now up to this moment, i have been talking with you for how long? chief justice warren. i would say for the better part of hours. mr. ruby. all right, wouldn't it be ridiculous for me to speak sensibly all this time and give you this climactic talk that i have? maybe something can be saved, something can be done. what have you got to answer to that, chief justice warren? chief justice warren. well, i don't know what can be done. mr. ruby, because i don't know what you anticipate we will encounter. representative ford. is there anything more you can tell us if you went back to washington? mr. ruby. yes; are you sincere in wanting to take me back? representative ford. we are most interested in all the information you have. mr. ruby. all i know is maybe something can be saved. because right now, i want to tell you this, i am used as a scapegoat, and there is no greater weapon that you can use to create some falsehood about some of the jewish faith, especially at the terrible heinous crime such as the killing of president kennedy. now maybe something can be saved. it may not be too late, whatever happens, if our president, lyndon johnson, knew the truth from me. but if i am eliminated, there won't be any way of knowing. right now, when i leave your presence now. i am the only one that can bring out the truth to our president, who believes in righteousness and justice. but he has been told, i am certain, that i was part of a plot to assassinate the president. i know your hands are tied; you are helpless. chief justice warren. mr. ruby. i think i can say this to you, that if he has been told any such thing, there is no indication of any kind that he believes it. mr. ruby. i am sorry. chief justice warren. i thought i would be very effective in telling you what i have said here. but in all fairness to everyone, maybe all i want to do is beg that if they found out i was telling the truth, maybe they can succeed in what their motives are, but maybe my people won't be tortured and mutilated. chief justice warren. well, you may be sure that the president and his whole commission will do anything that is necessary to see that your people are not tortured. mr. ruby. no. chief justice warren. you may be sure of that. mr. ruby. no; the only way you can do it is if he knows the truth, that i am telling the truth, and why i was down in that basement sunday morning, and maybe some sense of decency will come out and they can still fulfill their plan, as i stated before, without my people going through torture and mutilation. chief justice warren. the president will know everything that you have said, everything that you have said. mr. ruby. but i won't be around, chief justice. i won't be around to verify these things you are going to tell the president. mr. tonahill. who do you think is going to eliminate you, jack? mr. ruby. i have been used for a purpose, and there will be a certain tragic occurrence happening if you don't take my testimony and somehow vindicate me so my people don't suffer because of what i have done. chief justice warren. but we have taken your testimony. we have it here. it will be in permanent form for the president of the united states and for the congress of the united states, and for the courts of the united states, and for the people of the entire world. it is there. it will be recorded for all to see. that is the purpose of our coming here today. we feel that you are entitled to have your story told. mr. ruby. you have lost me though. you have lost me, chief justice warren. chief justice warren. lost you in what sense? mr. ruby. i won't be around for you to come and question me again. chief justice warren. well, it is very hard for me to believe that. i am sure that everybody would want to protect you to the very limit. mr. ruby. all i want is a lie detector test, and you refuse to give it to me. because as it stands now--and the truth serum, and any other--pentothal--how do you pronounce it, whatever it is. and they will not give it to me, because i want to tell the truth. and then i want to leave this world. but i don't want my people to be blamed for something that is untrue, that they claim has happened. chief justice warren. mr. ruby, i promise you that you will be able to take such a test. mr. ruby. when? chief justice warren. you will have to let me see when we can figure that out. but i assure you, it won't be delayed, because our desire is to terminate the work of the commission and make our report to the public just as soon as possible, so there won't be any misunderstanding caused by all of these rumors or stories that have been put out that are not consistent with the evidence in the case. but it will not be unnecessarily delayed, and we will do it on behalf of the commission, i promise you. mr. ruby. all i want, and i beg you--when are you going to see the president? chief justice warren. well, i have no date with the president. i don't know just when. but as soon as i do see him, i will be glad to tell him what you have said. mr. ruby. all i want is to take a polygraph to tell the truth. that is all i want to do. chief justice warren. yes; that, i promise you you can do. mr. ruby. because my people are going to suffer about things that will be said about me. chief justice warren. yes; well, i promise. mr. ruby. hold on another minute. chief justice warren. all right. mr. ruby. how do you know if the facts i stated about everything i said, statements with reference to, are the truth or not? chief justice warren. well, if you want a test made to test those principal questions, we will work them out so they can be tested. as i understand it, you can't use the polygraph to say now this is the story. mr. ruby. i know that. chief justice warren. to say you have the story of jack ruby. you can't do that. mr. ruby. i know that. you can clarify by questioning me when i conceived the idea and what my answer would naturally be that sunday morning. chief justice warren. maybe i can help the situation this way. suppose you list for us, if you can, the questions that you would like to have asked of you on the polygraph to establish the truth of your testimony. what things do you consider vital in it, and what would you like to have verified? mr. ruby. yes; but you are telling me to do these things--these things are going to be promised, but you see they aren't going to let me do these things. because when you leave here, i am finished. my family is finished. representative ford. isn't it true, mr. chief justice, that the same maximum protection and security mr. ruby has been given in the past will be continued? mr. ruby. but now that i have divulged certain information because i want to be honest, all i want to take is a polygraph test and tell the truth about things and combat the lies that have been told about me. now maybe certain people don't want to know the truth that may come out of me. is that plausible? representative ford. in other words, the chief justice has agreed, and i on the commission wholeheartedly concur, that you will be given a polygraph test as expeditiously as possible. and i am sure you can rely on what has been stated here by the chairman. mr. ruby. how are we going to communicate and so on? chief justice warren. we will communicate directly with you. mr. ruby. you have a lost cause, earl warren. you don't stand a chance. they feel about you like they do about me, chief justice warren. i shouldn't hurt your feelings in telling you that. chief justice warren. that won't hurt my feelings, because i have had some evidence of the feeling that some people have concerning me. mr. ruby. but you are the only one that can save me. i think you can. chief justice warren. yes? mr. ruby. but by delaying minutes, you lose the chance. and all i want to do is tell the truth, and that is all. there was no conspiracy. but by you telling them what you are going to do and how you are going to do it is too late as of this moment. chief justice warren. you take my word for it and the word of representative ford, that we will do this thing at the earliest possible moment, and that it will be done in time. it will be done in time. mr. ruby. well, you won't ever see me again, i tell you that. and i have lost my family. chief justice warren. yes? mr. ruby. no, no; you don't believe me, do you? chief justice warren. to be frank with you, i believe that you are not stating now what is the fact. i don't say you don't believe it, but i believe that i will be able to see you again and that we will be able to take this test that you are speaking of. well, i think we have tired mr. ruby. we have had him here for close to hours now, and i am sure our reporter must be equally tired, but we appreciate your patience and your willingness to testify in this manner for us. mr. ruby. all i want to do is tell the truth, and the only way you can know it is by the polygraph, as that is the only way you can know it. chief justice warren. that we will do for you. (whereupon, at : p.m., the president's commission recessed.) _monday, june , _ testimony of henry wade, patrick d. dean, and waggoner carr the president's commission met at : a.m., on june , , at maryland avenue ne., washington, d.c. present were chief justice earl warren, chairman; senator john sherman cooper and allen w. dulles, members. also present were j. lee rankin, general counsel; norman redlich, assistant counsel; dr. alfred goldberg, historian; waggoner carr, attorney general of texas, and charles murray, observers. testimony of henry wade senator cooper. will you raise your hand? do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give this commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. wade. i do. senator cooper. you are informed about the purposes of this investigation. mr. wade. i know it, generally. senator cooper. do you desire a lawyer? mr. wade. no, sir. senator cooper. thank you very much. mr. rankin. mr. wade, we are going to ask you generally about the time of mr. oswald's, lee harvey oswald's, arrest, what you had to do in connection with the entire matter, and the press being there at the jail, and the scene and seeing what happened there, and the various things in regard to mr. dean and other witnesses in connection with the matter. will you state your name? mr. wade. henry wade. mr. rankin. where do you live? mr. wade. i am district attorney, or criminal district attorney of dallas, tex.; my home is in dallas. mr. rankin. will you tell us briefly your qualifications for your position and profession? mr. wade. well, i am a graduate of the university of texas law school, , with highest honors. i was county attorney at rock wall, tex., another county for year. i resigned on december , , and became a special agent of the fbi. as a special agent of the fbi--i was there until august of , these were rough months--when i resigned and became an apprentice seaman in the navy. later i became a lieutenant, junior grade, served in the pacific years, about years. then after the war i got out of the navy on the th of february , ran for district attorney in dallas and was not elected at that time. i hadn't ever lived in dallas prior to that. you see there was another county. i was assistant district attorney and then was federal prosecutor from january , , up until december , when i resigned and ran for district attorney. i was elected district attorney in and have been criminal district attorney of dallas county since january , . mr. rankin. have you handled many of the prosecutions of that county since that time? mr. wade. well, my office or i have handled all of them since that time. i have had quite a bit of experience myself. i have a staff of lawyers and, of course, i don't try all the cases but i have tried quite a few, i would say , anyhow since i have been district attorney. mr. rankin. do you have any particular policy about which cases you would try generally? mr. wade. well, it varies according to who my first assistant has been. it is varied. if i have a first assistant who likes to try cases, i usually let him try a lot and i do the administrative. at the present time i have a very fine administrative assistant, jim bowie, whom you met and i try a few more cases. i guess i have tried four in the last year probably but two to five a year are about all the cases i try myself personally. mr. rankin. do you have any policy about capital cases as to whether you should try them or somebody else? mr. wade. i don't try all of them. i try all the cases that are very aggravated and receive probably some publicity to some extent, and i don't try all the capital cases. i think we have had quite a few death penalties but i don't imagine i have been in over half of them, probably half of them. mr. rankin. do you remember where you were at the time you learned of the assassination of president kennedy? mr. wade. well, they were having a party for president kennedy at market hall and i was out at market hall waiting for the president to arrive. mr. rankin. how did you learn about the assassination? mr. wade. well, one of the reporters for one of the newspapers told me there had been a shooting or something, of course, one of those things we were getting all kinds of rumors spreading through a crowd of , - , people, and then they got the radio on and the first report was they had killed two secret service agents, that was on the radio, and then the press all came running in there and then ran out, no one knew for sure what was going on until finally they announced that president had been shot and from the rostrum there the chairman of the---- mr. dulles. who was the chairman of that meeting, do you recall? mr. wade. eric johnson. eric johnson. mr. rankin. was he mayor then? mr. wade. no; he wasn't mayor, he was the president of texas industries and i believe was president of the dallas chamber of commerce. i may have been wrong on that but he has been president of the chamber of commerce. he is president of texas industries, and this is not particularly important but he is--that was sort of a bipartisan deal, in that he is one of the leading republicans of dallas and he was chairman of the meeting. mr. rankin. what did you do after you heard of the assassination? mr. wade. well, the first thing, we were set up in a bus to go from there to austin to another party that night for president kennedy, a group of us, or . we got on a bus and went. i went back to the office and sent my wife home, my wife was with me. and the first thing that i did was go check the law to see whether it was a federal offense or mine. i thought it was a federal offense when i first heard about it. we checked the law, and were satisfied that was no serious federal offense, or not a capital case, anyhow. there might be some lesser offense. i talked to the u.s. attorney. mr. rankin. who was that? mr. wade. barefoot sanders and he was in agreement it was going to be our case rather than his and he had been doing the same thing. mr. rankin. where did you talk to him? mr. wade. on the telephone as i recall, in his office from my office. i am not even sure i talked with him, somebody from my office talked to him, because i think you can realize things were a little confused and that took us, say, until : or . i let everybody in the office go home, but some of my key personnel who stayed there. i let the girls or told them they could go home, because they did close all the offices down there. the next thing i did--do you want me to tell you? mr. rankin. yes. mr. wade. i will tell you what i can. the next thing i did was to go by the sheriff's office who is next door to me and talked to decker, who is the sheriff. bill decker, and they were interviewing witnesses who were on the streets at the time, and i asked him and he said they have got a good prospect. this must have been o'clock roughly. mr. rankin. the witnesses that were on the street near the depository building? mr. wade. yes, sir; and in the building, i am not sure who they were, they had two court reporters there taking statements. mr. rankin. did they tell you anything about a suspect at that point? mr. wade. the sheriff told me, he said, "don't say nothing about it, but they have got a good suspect," talking about the dallas police. he didn't have him there. john connally, you know, was shot also--and he was, he used to be a roommate of mine in the navy and we were good friends, and are now--and the first thing i did then was went out to the hospital to see how he was getting along. i must have stayed out there until about o'clock, and in case you all don't know or understand one thing, it has never been my policy to make any investigations out of my office of murders or anything else for that matter. we leave that entirely to the police agency. mr. rankin. do you have a reason for that? mr. wade. that is the way it is set up down there. we have more than we can do actually in trying the cases. the only time we investigate them is after they are filed on, indicted, and then we have investigators who get them ready for trial and then lawyers. mr. dulles. have you any personnel for that? mr. wade. no, sir; i have in my office investigators but that is just for each court, and they primarily, or at least about all they do is line up the witnesses for trial and help with jury picking and things of that kind. mr. rankin. at this point that you are describing, had you learned of any arrest? mr. wade. no, sir; mr. decker says they have a good suspect. he said that sometime around o'clock. you see, i didn't have the benefit of all that was on the air. i didn't even know oswald had been arrested at this time. as a matter of fact, i didn't know it at o'clock when i left the hospital. when i left the hospital, i went home, watched television a while, had dinner, and a couple, some friends of ours came over there. they were going to austin with us on the bus, and we had dinner and started out somewhere but i said we had better go by the police station. at that time they kept announcing they had oswald or i believe they named a name. mr. rankin. had you learned about the tippit murder yet? mr. wade. yes, sir; of course, it had been on the air that tippit had been killed. i went by the dallas police, just to let us see what was kind of going on. mr. rankin. was that unusual for you to do that? mr. wade. it was unusual because i hadn't been in the dallas police department, i won't be there on the average of once a year actually, i mean on anything. i went by there and i went to chief curry's office. mr. rankin. how did you happen to do that this time? mr. wade. of course, this is not really, this was not an ordinary case, this was a little bit different, and i mostly wanted to know how he was coming along on the investigation is the main reason i went by. as i went in, and this is roughly : , at night--i said we ate dinner at home, i believe the couple were out in the car with my wife were waiting for me to go to dinner with them. mr. dulles. did you go down to the airfield when president johnson left? mr. wade. no, sir; no, sir. mr. dulles. you did not. mr. wade. i didn't go anywhere but to my office, then to parkland hospital and then home, and then i was there a while and then i went by the police station, mostly to see how they were coming along. papers were announcing, the radios, i mean, were announcing, television, that they had a suspect and was even telling them what some of the evidence was against him. mr. rankin. about what time was this at the police station? mr. wade. i would say around o'clock. this can vary minutes either way. mr. rankin. who did you see there? mr. wade. chief curry. mr. rankin. did you talk to him? mr. wade. i talked to him. mr. rankin. what did you say to him and what did he say to you? mr. wade. well, it is hard to remember. i know the first thing he did was pull out a memorandum that you all were interested in, signed by jack revill, and showed it to me and i read it, and said, "what do you think about that?" and i said---- mr. dulles. i wonder if you would identify this for the record? mr. wade. you can get it. let me tell you the story. i read that thing there hurriedly and i remember it mentioned that agent hosty had talked to revill---- senator cooper. who was that? mr. wade. hosty. senator cooper. can you identify him as to what he does? mr. wade. he is a special agent of the fbi, but i don't think i would know him if he walked in here actually. but that is his business. he showed me that, and i read it. now, as far as identifying it, i have seen--i have a copy of it in my files. you see, when they turned the records over to me and i read it and looked it over and to the best of my knowledge was the same memorandum he showed me, although all i did was glance at it and it said generally they knew something about him and knew he was in town or something like that. senator cooper. who said that? mr. wade. this memorandum said that. senator cooper. who is reported to be quoting the memorandum? mr. wade. special agent hosty. now, i have since looked at the memorandum. so far as i know it is the same memorandum, but like i say i read it there and i don't know whether it is the--i don't know whether it said word for word to be the same thing but it appears to me to my best knowledge to be the same memorandum. mr. rankin. do you know when you first got the memorandum in your files that you are referring to? mr. wade. it was a month later. you see the police gave me a record of everything on the ruby case, i would say some time about christmas. mr. rankin. i will hand you commission exhibit no. and ask you if that is the memorandum you just referred to? mr. wade. yes; to the best of my knowledge that is the memorandum he showed me there at p.m. on the d day of november . jack revill incidentally, you all have talked with him, but he is one of the brightest, to my mind, of the young dallas police officers. as a matter of fact, when we got into the ruby trial, i asked that they assign jack revill to assist us in the investigation and he assisted with picking of the jury and getting the witnesses all through the ruby trial. mr. rankin. would your records show when you received a copy of this document, commission exhibit no. ? mr. wade. well, i am sure it would. it would be the day--you can trace it back to when the newspapers said he had turned all the files over to me and it was around christmas as i recall, and i believe actually it was after christmas, but probably days, but you see they turned over a file that thick to me, i imagine. it was of all of that, the same thing they turned over to you, everything the police had on jack ruby. mr. rankin. you put a receipt stamp on anything like that? mr. wade. i don't think it will show a date or anything like that on it because they just hauled it in there and laid it on my desk. but this was--it is in our files, and i am rather sure it is the same time. you all got the same thing. mr. rankin. we didn't receive anything like that until the time that chief curry came to testify, just for your information. mr. wade. well, i didn't know that, but now on this, this is the ruby matter---- mr. dulles. could i ask one question there? mr. wade. yes, sir. mr. dulles. just to refresh my recollection of your testimony, did you see this that afternoon around or o'clock? mr. wade. around o'clock i would say it was on chief curry's desk. mr. dulles. of the d? mr. wade. of the d. senator cooper. i don't want to interrupt too much, but looking at this exhibit, i note it is written, you have seen this commission, commission exhibit no. signed by jack revill? mr. wade. yes; let me see it; yes. senator cooper. is your recollection, was the memorandum that was shown to you by--first, who did show you the memorandum on the d? mr. wade. chief curry of the dallas police. senator cooper. was the memorandum shown to you on the d by chief curry in this same form? mr. wade. to the best of my knowledge that was it now. now, like i said i read this memorandum, and i read the memorandum, and asked the chief what he was going to do with it and he said, "i don't know." and then the next morning i heard on television chief curry, i don't know whether i heard him or not, he made some kind of statement concerning this memorandum on television, and then later came back and said that wasn't to his personal knowledge, and i think that was--he said that what he said about it he retracted it to some extent but i guess you all have got records of those television broadcasts or at least can get them. mr. rankin. do you remember whether he said just what was in this exhibit no. or something less than that or more or what? mr. wade. i don't remember. you see, things were moving fast, and it is hard, there are so many things going on. i will go on to my story. mr. rankin. yes. mr. wade. i will answer anything, of course. mr. rankin. you can tell us the rest that you said to chief curry and he said to you at that time, first. mr. wade. i asked him how the case was coming along and as a practical matter he didn't know. you probably have run into this, but there is really a lack of communication between the chief's office and the captain of detective's office there in dallas. mr. rankin. you found that to be true. mr. wade. for every year i have been in the office down there. and i assume you have taken their depositions. i don't know what the relations--the relations are better between curry and fritz than between hanson and fritz, who was his predecessor. but fritz runs a kind of a one-man operation there where nobody else knows what he is doing. even me, for instance, he is reluctant to tell me, either, but i don't mean that disparagingly. i will say captain fritz is about as good a man at solving a crime as i ever saw, to find out who did it but he is poorest in the getting evidence that i know, and i am more interested in getting evidence, and there is where our major conflict comes in. i talked to him a minute there and i don't believe i talked to captain fritz. one of my assistants was in fritz's office. i believe i did walk down the hall and talk briefly, and they had filed, they had filed on oswald for killing tippit. mr. dulles. which assistant was that? mr. wade. bill alexander. there was another one of--another man there, jim allen, who was my former first assistant who is practicing law there in dallas and frankly i was a little surprised of seeing him there, he is a real capable boy but he was there in homicide with captain fritz. they were good friends. and i know there is no question about his intentions and everything was good, but he was just a lawyer there, but he had tried many death penalty cases with fritz--of fritz's cases. but he was there. your fbi was there, your secret service were there in the homicide. mr. rankin. who from the fbi, do you recall? mr. wade. well, i saw vince drain, a special agent that i knew, and jim bookhout, i believe, and there was mr. kelley and mr. sorrels--inspector kelley of the secret service, sorrels, forest sorrels. i might tell you that also, to give you a proper perspective on this thing, there were probably people then out in that hall. you could hardly walk down the hall. you just had to fight your way down through the hall, through the press up there. mr. rankin. who were they? mr. wade. the television and newsmen. i say , that was all that could get into that hall and to get into homicide it was a strain to get the door open hard enough to get into the office. mr. rankin. did you say anything to chief curry about that? mr. wade. no, sir; i probably mentioned it but i assume you want--whether i meant he ought to clean them out or not. i didn't tell him he should or shouldn't because i have absolutely no control over the police. they are a separate entity. they have a municipality, and they work under a city manager. mr. rankin. did you say anything to chief curry about what should be told the press about investigation, how it was progressing or anything of that kind? mr. wade. yes; i think that is the brief conversation, that is the last i talked to curry that night. i may have talked to--but that is all i recall. i left thereafter, and went on out to dinner. mr. rankin. about what time did you leave? mr. wade. , : , something like that. i got home, say, : or , after eating dinner, and i believe i talked to the u.s. attorney or at least i saw it come on the radio that they are going to file on oswald as part of an international conspiracy in murdering the u.s. president, and i think i talked to barefoot sanders. he called me or i called him. mr. rankin. i wanted to get for the record, mr. wade, who would be trying to file like that. mr. wade. i don't know. all i know it wasn't me. it was told to me at one time that the justice of the peace said something about it and another one, one of my assistants, alexander had said something about it and i have talked to both of them since and both of them deny so i don't know who suggested it or anything but it was on the radio and i think on television. i know i heard it and i am not sure where. mr. rankin. can you tell us whether it was from your office or from a federal office that such an idea was developing as far as you know? mr. wade. well, on that score it doesn't make any sense at all to me because there is no such crime in texas, being part of an international conspiracy, it is just murder with malice in texas, and if you allege anything else in an indictment you have to prove it and it is all surplusage in an indictment to allege anything, whether a man is a john bircher or a communist or anything, if you allege it you have to prove it. so, when i heard it i went down to the police station and took the charge on him, just a case of simple murder. mr. dulles. is that of tippit or of the president? mr. wade. no; of the president, and the radio announced johnston was down there, and alexander, and of course other things, and so i saw immediately that if somebody was going to take a complaint that he is part of an international conspiracy it had to be a publicity deal rather--somebody was interested in something other than the law because there is no such charge in texas as part of--i don't care what you belong to, you don't have to allege that in an indictment. mr. rankin. what do you mean by the radio saying that johnson was there? do you mean president johnson? mr. wade. no; that is the justice of the peace whose name is johnston. mr. rankin. i see. mr. wade. yes; justice of the peace david l. johnston was the justice of the peace there. so, i went down there not knowing--also at that time i had a lengthy conversation with captain fritz and with jim alexander who was in the office, bill alexander, bookhout because another reason i thought maybe they were going to want to file without the evidence, and then that put everything on me, you know. if they didn't have the evidence and they said, "we file on him, we have got the assassin" i was afraid somebody might take the complaint and i went down to be sure they had some evidence on him. mr. rankin. have you told us all that you said to the u.s. attorney when you talked to him at that time? mr. wade. so far as i know. i know that concerned that point, you know. mr. rankin. well, did he say anything to you about that point? mr. wade. well, i think he asked me was that--i don't think barefoot was real conversant, i guess is the word with what the law is in a murder charge. i told him that it had no place in it and he said he had heard it on the radio and didn't know whether it would be--thought it might because some--if it was not necessary, he did not think it ought to be done, something to that effect so i went down there to be sure they didn't. i went over the evidence which they--when i saw the evidence, it was the evidence as told to me by captain fritz. mr. rankin. this conversation you have described you had when jim alexander was there and the others? mr. wade. yes; i first asked jim allen, a man whom i have a lot of confidence in, do they have a case and he said it looks like a case, you can try. mr. rankin. is that the case about the assassination? mr. wade. yes; we are talking entirely about the assassination. on the tippit thing, i didn't take the charge on that and i think they had some witnesses who had identified him there at the scene, but i was more worried about the assassination of them filing on somebody that we couldn't prove was guilty. mr. rankin. did you discuss the evidence that they did have at that time with captain fritz? mr. wade. yes, sir. mr. rankin. will you tell us what evidence you recall? mr. wade. i have made no notes but roughly he gave the story about him bringing the gun to work, saying it was window rods from the neighbor, someone who had brought him to work. he also said there were three employees of the company that left him on the sixth floor. he told about, the part about, the young officer running in there right after the assassination and oswald leaving after the manager said that he was employed there. told about his arrest and said that there was a scuffle there, and that he tried to shoot the officer. i don't know--i think i am giving you all this because i think a little of it may vary from the facts but all i know is what fritz told me. he said the dallas police had found a palmprint on the underside of the gun of oswald. at that time, the fbi was standing by to fly the gun to the laboratory here in washington which incidentally, they didn't find, but i assume the commission has interviewed senator--not senator--day, the fingerprint man of the dallas police but i have learned since that he probably can't identify the palmprint under there but at that time they told me they had one on it. they said they had a palmprint on the wrapping paper, and on the box, i believe there by the scene. they did at least put oswald there at the scene. mr. rankin. will you clarify the palmprint that you are referring to on the rifle? was it on the underside of the rifle, was it between the rifle and the stock or where was it as you recall? mr. wade. specifically, i couldn't say because--but he said they had a palmprint or a fingerprint of oswald on the underside of the rifle and i don't know whether it was on the trigger guard or where it was but i knew that was important, i mean, to put the gun in his possession. i thought we had that all the time when i took the complaint on the thing. let me see what else they had that night. well, they had a lot of the things they found in his possession. they had the map, you know, that marked the route of the parade. they had statements from the bus driver and the taxicab driver that hauled him somewhere. i think they varied a little as to where they picked him up but generally they had some type of statement from them. that is generally what they gave me now. mr. rankin. that is all you recall as of that time? mr. wade. yes, sir. mr. rankin. did you give any report to the press then about---- mr. wade. no; i will tell you what happened then. mr. rankin. yes, sir. mr. wade. as we walked out of the thing they started yelling, i started home, and they started yelling they wanted to see oswald, the press. and perry said that he had put him in the showup room downstairs. of course, they were yelling all over the world they wanted a picture of oswald. and i don't know the mob and everybody ended up in the showup room. it is three floors below there. mr. rankin. still friday night? mr. wade. yes, sir. mr. rankin. about what time? mr. wade. i would say around midnight roughly. it would--it could be either way an hour because i went down there around o'clock, : or , some roughly and i don't know what the time element was but i would say around midnight. so, they started interviewing fritz and curry, and i started to leave and fritz said, "well, we will get--" either fritz or curry said, "we will show him up down there," he said, "this is mr. wade, the district attorney." he kind of introduced me to the press. i didn't say anything at that time but down in the basement they started to put oswald--i went down there with them. they started to put oswald in the lineup down there. mr. rankin. will you describe that briefly to the commission? mr. wade. well, i don't know whether you have seen--it is a room larger than this and you have a glass here on this side. behind that glass they have a place out here where they walk prisoners in through there and you can see through this side but you can't see through that side. i think that is the way it is set up. senator cooper. you mean observers can see? mr. wade. observers can see, but the defendants or suspects can't see through or at least can't identify. mr. rankin. do you remember who else besides lee harvey oswald was in the showup? mr. wade. no; i am just telling you about the showup room. now, they had had showups on him but i wasn't there at any of those, but this was, the purpose of this, was to let the press see oswald, if i understand it. and the police were yelling, "everybody wants to see him, wants a picture of him." they started in the screened-in portion and a howl went up that you can't take a picture through that screen. then they had a conference with, among some of them, and the next thing i knew i was just sitting there upon a little, i guess, elevated, you might say a speaker's stand, although there were people in the room, you couldn't even actually get out, you know. mr. rankin. did they ask you whether they should do this? mr. wade. i don't think i said yea or nay to the thing so far as i know, because it was--and i actually didn't know what they were doing until, the next thing i knew they said they were going to have to bring him in there. well, i think i did say, "you'd better get some officers in here or something for some protection on him." i thought a little about, and i got a little worried at that stage. so about officers came in and they were standing around oswald, and at this time i looked out in the audience and saw a man out there, later, who turned out to be jack ruby. he was there at that scene. mr. rankin. how did you happen to pick him out? mr. wade. well, i don't know. he had--i had seen the fellow somewhere before, but i didn't know his name, but he had a pad, and the reason i remember him mostly---- mr. rankin. you mean a scratch pad? mr. wade. he had some kind of scratch pad. the reason i mentioned him mostly, i will get into him in a minute and tell you everything about him. he was out there about minute, i would say, and they took pictures and everything else and oswald was here and the cameras were in a ring around him, and as they left---- mr. rankin. excuse me. where was ruby from where you told us where oswald was? mr. wade. well, he was, i would say, about feet. i am giving a rough---- mr. rankin. when you saw him---- mr. wade. we went all through this at the trial, and it varied on where ruby was, but when i saw him he was about four rows back in the aisle seat, standing up in the seat. mr. rankin. were there press men around him? mr. wade. all kinds of press men around him, and also press men deep between him and oswald. now, one of their--you mentioned the gun awhile ago--one of their defenses in the trial was if he had a gun, he had a gun there, he could have killed him if he wanted to. it is the first i heard him say that he didn't have a gun that you mentioned awhile ago. so when i got--when they got through, they started asking him questions, the press. senator cooper. wait a minute. how close were the nearest people in the audience to oswald? mr. wade. i would say they were that far from him. senator cooper. how far is that? mr. wade. three feet. senator cooper. you mean some of the reporters and photographers were within feet of him? mr. wade. they were on the ground, they were on the ground, and they were standing on top of each other, and on top of tables, and i assume in that room there were people. it was just a mob scene. senator cooper. i believe i have seen the room. isn't it correct that at the end where the showup is held that is an elevated platform? mr. wade. there is a platform up there where the microphone is. senator cooper. was he standing up on the platform? mr. wade. no, he was not at the platform. senator cooper. was he on the floor level? mr. wade. he was in the floor level in the middle. if i understand, that was the first or second time i had ever been in the room. senator cooper. were there people around him, surrounding him? mr. wade. people were on the floor in front of those desks. senator cooper. but i mean, were they, were people on all sides of him? mr. wade. no; they were all in front of him. they were all in front of him, and you had a ring of policemen behind him, policemen on all sides of him. it was just the front where they were, and that is the way i recall it, but i knew they had a line of policemen behind him, and the place was full of policemen, because they went up and it turns out later they got all the police who were on duty that night. they were plain clothes police, most of them, maybe they had a uniform or two, a few of them. so they started---- senator cooper. excuse me one moment. mr. wade. yes, sir. senator cooper. can i make a statement? i will have to go to my office for a few minutes. i hope to return in about minutes, and i will ask mr. dulles to preside in my place, and i will return. mr. wade. thank you, sir. (at this point, senator cooper withdrew from the hearing room.) mr. dulles. proceed. mr. rankin. will you proceed? mr. wade. yes, sir; so they said, "have you filed on him?" at that stage, started yelling has he been filed on, and i said yes, and filed on for murder with malice, and they asked judge johnston, is there--they asked him something. then they started asking me questions everywhere, from all angles. mr. rankin. under your practice, what do you mean by file on him? is that something different than an arraignment? mr. wade. well, of course, it is according to the terminology and what you mean by arraignment. in texas the only arraignment is when you get ready to try him. like we arraigned ruby just before we started putting on evidence. that is the only arraignment we have, actually. mr. rankin. i see. you don't bring him before a magistrate? mr. wade. well, that is called--you can have an examining trial before the magistrate to see whether it is a bailable matter. at that time, i don't believe he had been brought before the magistrate, because i told david johnston as we left there, i said, "you ought to go up before the jail and have him brought before you and advise him of his rights and his right to counsel and this and that," which, so far as i know, he did. but at that meeting you had two attorneys from american civil liberties union. mr. rankin. which meeting? mr. wade. that friday night meeting, or friday night showup we had better call it, midnight on friday night. i believe it was greer ragio and professor webster from smu. i saw them there in the hall, and chief curry told me that they had been given an opportunity or had talked with oswald. i am not sure. i was under the impression that they had talked with them but, of course, i didn't see them talking with him. mr. rankin. did you talk to them about it? mr. wade. yes; i told them that he is entitled to counsel, that is what they are interested in on the counsel situation, and anybody, either them or anybody else could see him that wanted to. mr. rankin. what did they say then? mr. wade. mr. rankin, i will tell you what, there was so much going on i don't remember exactly. the only thing was i got the impression they had already talked with them somewhere, but i don't know whether they told me or the chief told me or what. like i say, it was a mob scene there, practically, and they were standing in the door when i--they were in the meeting there. let me get a little further and go back to--i don't know whether i answered your question and if i don't it is because i can't, because i don't know--i will tell you what happened the next day. mr. rankin. let's finish with the showup now. mr. wade. yes. they asked a bunch of questions there. i think if you get a record of my interview that you will find that any of the evidence---- mr. dulles. which interview is that? mr. wade. with the press, midnight, radio, television, and everything else. i think if you will get a copy of that you will find they asked me lots of questions about fingerprints and evidence. i refused to answer them because i said it was evidence in the case. the only thing that i told them that you might get the impression was evidence but is really not evidence, i told them that the man's wife said the man had a gun or something to that effect. the reason, maybe good or bad, but that isn't admissible in texas. you see a wife can't testify. it is not evidence, but it is evidence but it is inadmissible evidence actually is what it was. so i think if you find anything in that interview that deals with the evidence you are going to feel that it dealt only with that piece of testimony of marina oswald, which someone had told me she said about the gun was missing from the house, which i think later was corroborated. mr. rankin. at that time, had you filed on the assassination? mr. wade. yes, sir; we had filed upstairs prior to this. he had been filed on for murder with malice. mr. rankin. but he hadn't been brought before the justice of the peace or magistrate yet on that complaint, had he? mr. wade. the justice of the peace was there in the office and took it in the homicide. oswald was in homicide, also, but he is in a separate office. like i told you, i never did see oswald except in that lineup downstairs. that was the first time i had seen him. mr. rankin. was that when you told the justice of the peace that he ought to have him before him to tell him his rights and so forth? mr. wade. yes; it was some time during that hour, this went on for about an hour down there, everything. well, during that interview somebody said, and the thing--oswald belonged to, was he a communist, something generally to that effect. mr. rankin. they asked you that? mr. wade. i was asked that. and i said, well, now, i don't know about that but they found some literature, i understand, some literature dealing with free cuba movement. following this--and so i looked up and jack ruby is in the audience and he said, no, it is the fair play for cuba committee. well, he corrected me, you see, to show you why i got attracted to his attention, why someone in the audience would speak up and answer a question. mr. dulles. you hadn't known him before? mr. wade. i had never known him, to my knowledge. he is a man about town, and i had seen him before, because when i saw him in there, and i actually thought he was a part of the press corps at the time. mr. rankin. were any of your assistants or people working for you there at that showup? mr. wade. i don't believe there were any of them there now. if there is any of them, it is alexander, because he is the only one down there, but i think he is still up in homicide. i will go further on that, some of my assistants know him, but he was in my office days before this with a hot check or something where he was trying to collect a hot check or pay someone. i think he was trying to pay someone else's hot check off, i don't know what it was, i didn't see him. he talked to my check section. i found this out later. mr. rankin. by "he" you mean---- mr. wade. ruby, jack ruby. mr. rankin. yes. mr. wade. he was in another office of mine, since this all came out, he was in there with a bunch of the police, we were trying a case on pornography, some of my assistants were, and my assistant came in his office during the noon hour after coming from the court, this was or days before the assassination and ruby was sitting there in his office with five or six dallas police officers. in fact, he was sitting in my assistant's desk and he started to sit down and asked who he was and the officer said, "well, that is jacky ruby who runs the carousel club," so he had been down there. i don't know him personally--i mean i didn't know who he was. it was one of these things i had seen the man, i imagine, but i had no idea who he was, and i will even go further, after it was over, this didn't come out in the trial, as they left down there, ruby ran up to me and he said, "hi henry" he yelled real loud, he yelled. "hi, henry," and put his hand to shake hands with me and i shook hands with him. and he said, "don't you know me?" and i am trying to figure out whether i did or not. and he said, "i am jack ruby, i run the vegas club." and i said, "what are you doing in here?" it was in the basement of the city hall. he said, "i know all these fellows." just shook his hand and said, "i know all these fellows." i still didn't know whether he was talking about the press or police all the time, but he shook his hands kind of like that and left me and i was trying to get out of the place which was rather crowded, and if you are familiar with that basement, and i was trying to get out of that hall. and here i heard someone call "henry wade wanted on the phone," this was about o'clock in the morning or about o'clock in the morning, and i gradually get around to the phone there, one of the police phones, and as i get there it is jack ruby, and station klif in dallas on the phone. you see, he had gone there, this came out in the trial, that he had gone over there and called klif and said henry wade is down there, i will get you an interview with him. mr. rankin. who is this? mr. wade. klif is the name of the radio station. you see, i didn't know a thing, and i just picked up the phone and they said this is so and so at klif and started asking questions. but that came out in the trial. but to show that he was trying to be kind of the type of person who was wanting to think he was important, you know. mr. rankin. did you give him an interview over the telephone to klif? mr. wade. ruby? mr. rankin. no. mr. wade. i answered about two questions and hung up, but they had a man down there who later interviewed me before i got out of the building. but they just asked me had he been filed and one or two things. mr. dulles. it was a klif reporter that you gave this to, not ruby? mr. wade. not ruby. ruby was not on the phone, he had just gone out and called him and handed the phone to me. i thought i got a call from somebody, and picked it up and it was klif on the phone. mr. rankin. on the pornography charge, was ruby involved in that? mr. wade. no, sir; i don't know why he was down there, actually. but there were six or seven police officers, special services of the dallas police were officers in the thing and i don't know whether he was just interested in it or what he was down there for but he was down there, and i didn't know him. he has tried to leave the impression that he had known me a long time but it is one of those things, i have been in politics and sometimes there are a lot of faces i know that i don't know actually who they are, but i didn't know who he was and he actually introduced himself to me that night. well, that is about all i can recall of that night. i went home then. mr. rankin. you have told us all you remember about the showup? mr. wade. i told you all, and, of course, all i know about it as far as my interview with the press. you can get more accurate, actually, by getting a transcript of it because i don't remember what all was asked, but i do remember the incident with ruby and i know i told them that there would be no evidence given out in the case. at that time, most of it had already been given out, however, by someone. i think by the police. now, the next morning, i don't know of anything else until the next morning. i went to the office about o'clock. mr. dulles. could i ask a question? mr. wade. yes, sir. (discussion off the record.) mr. rankin. do you have any particular transcript that you are speaking about? mr. wade. no; i don't have anything. the thing about it is this was taken, this was on television and radio and all the networks. they had everything there set up and that is the only--that is the first of, i think, three times i was interviewed, but it was friday night around between and o'clock. it was actually saturday morning between and . mr. rankin. so there were a number of networks, possibly, and a number of the radio stations and television stations from the whole area? mr. wade. the whole area and it actually wasn't set up for an interview with me. it was an interview, what i thought, with fritz and curry, and i thought i would stay for it, but when they got into the interviewing, i don't know what happened to them but they weren't there. they had left, or i was the one who was answering the questions about things i didn't know much about, to tell you the truth. has that got it cleared? can i go to the next morning? i will try to go a little and not forget anything. the next morning i went to my office, probably, say, o'clock saturday morning. waiting there for me was robert oswald, who was the brother of lee harvey oswald. you probably have met him, but i believe his name is robert is his brother. i talked to him about an hour. mr. rankin. what did you say to him and what did he say to you? mr. wade. well, we discussed the history of lee harvey oswald and the--one of the purposes he came to me, he wanted his mother, oswald's mother, and wife and him to see oswald. mr. rankin. did he say this to you? mr. wade. yes; but we had already set it up, somebody, i don't know whether my office or the police, but he was set up to see him that morning at o'clock, i believe, or o'clock, some time. mr. rankin. did you do anything about it? mr. wade. yes, sir; i checked to see if it was arranged. i called captain fritz and told him that he wanted to see him, and he said they were going to let him see him. i don't know. i don't know the name, but it was either o'clock or o'clock saturday morning. i don't know whether he had requested or not, but that was the first time i had seen him. i don't know why he came to my office, but i used it to try to go into lee harvey oswald's background some, and i also told him that there is a lot involved in this thing from a national point of view, and i said, "you appear to be a good citizen," which he did appear to me, "and i think you will render your country a great service if you will go up and tell oswald to tell us all about the thing." that was part of the deal of my working for a statement from oswald which didn't pan out, of course. because i was going to interview oswald sunday afternoon when we got him into the county jail and i was going to attempt to get a statement from him. mr. rankin. did robert tell you anything about lee harvey oswald's background at that time? mr. wade. he told me about in europe, how in russia, how they had had very little correspondence with them and he wrote to them renouncing or telling them he wanted to renounce his american citizenship and didn't want to have anything else to do with him. he said later that one of the letters changed some, i mean back, and then he said he was coming home, coming back and he had married and kind of his general history of the thing and he came back and i believe stayed with this robert in fort worth for , , or months. now i say this is from memory, like i don't have--and they had helped him some, and said that marina, the thing that impressed her was most your supermarkets, i think, more than anything else in this country, your a. & p. and the big, i guess you call them, supermarkets or whatever they are. and he told me something about him going to new orleans, but i gathered that they were not too close. i believe he told me this, that he hadn't seen him in close to a year prior to this, or a good while. now, it seemed to me like it was a year, and he said their families, they didn't have anything in common much, and he said, of course--i said "do you think"--i said, "the evidence is pretty strong against your brother, what do you think about it?" he said, "well, he is my brother, and i hate to think he would do this." he said, "i want to talk to him and ask him about it." now, i never did see him. roughly, that is about all i remember from that conversation. we rambled around for quite a bit. i know i was impressed because he got out and walked out the front of my office and in front of my office there were or press men wanting to ask him something, and he wouldn't say a word to them, he just walked off. i told him they would be out there, and he said, "i won't have anything to say." mr. dulles. was this the morning after the assassination? mr. wade. yes, sir; saturday morning. mr. dulles. about what time? mr. wade. i would say between and is when i talked with him. and so the main purpose in the office, we believed, the main purpose of me and the lawyers in the office were briefing the law on whether to try oswald for the murder of the president, whether you could prove the flight and the killing of officer tippit, which we became satisfied that we could, i mean from an evidentiary point of view. mr. rankin. by "we" who do you mean, in your office? mr. wade. well, i think i had seven or eight in there, bowie, and alexander, and dan ellis, jim williamson, but there was a legal point. my office was open, but that, with reference to this case, there were other things going on, but in reference to this case, this is what we spent our time trying to establish whether that would be admissible or not. mr. rankin. did you consult with any federal officers in regard to how you should handle the case or what you should say about it at any time? mr. wade. no; i didn't discuss, consult with any of them. i did talk to some of the fbi boys and i believe there was an inspector. mr. rankin. secret service? mr. wade. no. mr. rankin. fbi? mr. wade. there was an inspector of the fbi who called me two or three times. i don't remember. mr. rankin. did they tell you how to handle the case in any way? mr. wade. i don't think so. i mean it wasn't really up to them. mr. rankin. the only time you ever talked to barefoot sanders about it was in regard to this conspiracy, possibility of, that you have already described? mr. wade. frankly, that is hard to say. i think we talked off and on every day or two about developments in it, because, you see, well, i don't know whether we talked any more but before the killing by ruby, but we had nearly a daily conversation about the files in the oswald case, what we were going to do with them. you see, they were going to give them all to me, and at that stage we didn't know whether it was going to be a president's commission or a congressional investigation or what. after the president's commission was set up, i arranged through him and miller here in the justice department that rather than give the files to me, to get the police to turn them over to the fbi and send them to you all, or photostat them and send them to you all. barefoot and i talked frequently, but i don't know of anything significant of the oswald angle that we discussed, and we spent the last months trying to get some of the fbi files to read on the ruby trial. i mean we talked a lot but i don't know anything further about oswald into it or anything on ruby of any particular significance. mr. rankin. was barefoot sanders suggesting how you should handle the oswald case except the time you already related? mr. wade. i don't recall him doing, suggesting that. mr. rankin. any other federal officers suggesting anything like that to you? mr. wade. the only thing i remember is the inspector of the fbi whom i don't think i ever met. i was there in the police one time during this shuffle, and i think it was some time saturday morning, and he said they should have nothing, no publicity on the thing, no statements. now, i don't know whether that was after ruby shot oswald or before, i don't know when it was, but i did talk with him and i know his concern which was that there was too much publicity. mr. rankin. and he told you that, did he? mr. wade. at some stage in it. i am thinking it was sunday night which i know i talked with him sunday night, but we are not that far along with it yet. but i don't know whether i talked to him previously or not. mr. rankin. that is the only conversation of that type that you recall with any federal officer? mr. wade. that is all i recall. i am sure barefoot and i discussed the publicity angle on it some, but i don't remember barefoot suggesting how we handle it, but neither one of us knew whether it was his offense or mine, to begin with, for or hours because we had to select it. mr. rankin. do you know what barefoot said about publicity when you did discuss it with him? mr. wade. i don't recall anything. mr. rankin. all right. what happened next, as you recall? mr. wade. i was going home. i went by the police station to talk to chief curry. mr. rankin. did you discuss the evidence then? mr. wade. well, at that time--you see, chief curry knew very little of the evidence at that stage. he should have known, but he didn't. but i discussed the thing with him and i told him there was too much evidence being put out in the case from his department, that i wish he would talk to fritz and have no further statements on it. mr. rankin. what did he say about that? mr. wade. he said, "that is fine. i think that is so." mr. rankin. now, going back just a moment, you spoke out about a map earlier that you had been told they had as evidence, do you recall, of the parade route. did you look at the map at the time? mr. wade. i don't think i ever saw the map. mr. rankin. you don't know what it contained in regard to the parade route? mr. wade. i was told by fritz that it had the parade route and it had an x where the assassination took place and it had an x out on stemmons freeway and an x at inwood road and lemon, is all i know, a circle or some mark there. mr. rankin. but you have never seen the map? mr. wade. so far as i know, i have never seen the map. i don't know even where it was found, but i think it was found in his home, probably. but that is my recollection. but i don't even know that. i told chief curry this. then i walked out, and tom pettit of nbc said, "we are all confused on the law, where we are really on this thing." mr. rankin. what did you say? mr. wade. at that time i said, "well, i will explain the procedure, texas procedure in a criminal case," and i had about a -minute interview there as i was leaving the chief's office, dealing entirely with the procedure, i mean your examining trial and grand jury and jury trial. i mean as to what takes place. you see, they had all kinds of statements and other countries represented and they were all curious to ask legal questions, when bond would be set and when it would be done. mr. rankin. did you discuss the evidence at that time? mr. wade. no, sir; i refused. you will find that i refused to answer questions. they all asked questions on it, but i would tell them that is evidence and that deals with evidence in the matter. mr. rankin. did you tell them why you wouldn't answer those questions? mr. wade. i told them we had to try the case, here, and we would have to try the case and we wouldn't be able to get a jury if they knew all the evidence in the case. you will find that in those interviews most, i think. i haven't seen them. as a matter of fact, didn't see them myself even. but i went home that day, and---- mr. dulles. that day is saturday? mr. wade. saturday; yes, sir. mr. rankin. about what time? do you recall? mr. wade. i guess i got home : probably. i must have eaten on the way home or somewhere. mr. rankin. in the afternoon? mr. wade. yes, sir; and i know i was amazed as i walked through the television room there and saw chief curry with that gun. you see, at that time they had not identified the gun as his gun, but he was telling about the fbi report on it. mr. rankin. will you just describe what you saw there at that time? mr. wade. well, i know he was in a crowd, and it seems to me like he had the gun, but on second thought i am not even sure whether he had the gun, but he was tracing the history of how that the gun was bought under the name, under an assumed name from a mail-order house in chicago and mailed there to dallas, and that the serial number and everything that had been identified, that the fbi had done that, something else. i believe they said they had a post office box here, a blind post office box that the recipients of that had identified as oswald as the guy or something that received it. in other words, he went directly over the evidence connecting him with the gun. mr. rankin. you say there was a crowd there. who was the crowd around him? mr. wade. newsmen. you see, i was at home. i was watching it on television. mr. rankin. i see. did you do anything about that, then? did you call him and ask him to quit that? mr. wade. no; i felt like nearly it was a hopeless case. i know now why it happened. that was the first piece of evidence he got his hands on before fritz did. mr. rankin. will you explain what you mean by that? mr. wade. well, this went to the fbi and came to him rather than to captain fritz, and i feel in my own mind that this was something new, that he really had been receiving none of the original evidence, that it was coming through fritz to him and so this went from him to fritz, you know, and i think that is the reason he did it. so i stayed home that afternoon. i was trying to think, it seems like i went back by the police station some time that night, late at night. mr. rankin. this way of giving evidence to the press and all of the news media, is that standard practice in your area? mr. wade. yes; it is, unfortunately. i don't think it is good. we have just, even since this happened we have had a similar incident with the police giving all the evidence out or giving out an oral confession of a defendant that is not admissible in court. you know, oral admissions are not generally admissible in texas. and they gave all the evidence out in it. mr. rankin. have you done anything about it, tried to stop it in any way? mr. wade. well, in this actually, in the same story they quoted me as saying, i mean the news quoted me as saying they shouldn't give the information out, that is the evidence, we have got to try the case, we will get a jury, it is improper to do this, or something to that effect. so far as taking it up with--i have mentioned many times that they shouldn't give out evidence, in talking to the police officers, i mean in there in training things, but it is something i have no control over whatever. it is a separate entity, the city of dallas is, and i do a little fussing with the police, but by the same token it is not a situation where--i think it is one of your major problems that are going to have to be looked into not only here but it is a sidelight, i think, to your investigation to some extent, but i think you prejudice us, the state, more than you do the defense by giving out our testimony. you may think that giving out will help you to convict him. i think it works the other way, your jurors that read, the good type of jurors, get an opinion one way or another from what they read, and you end up with poor jurors. if they haven't read or heard anything of the case--well, not generally the same type of juror. the only thing i make a practice of saying is that i reviewed the evidence in this case in which the state will ask the death penalty, which may be going too far, but i tell them we plan to ask the death penalty or plan to ask life or plan to ask maximum jail sentence or something of that kind. mr. rankin. did you say that at any time about the oswald case? mr. wade. oh, yes, sir; i have said that about both oswald and ruby. mr. rankin. when did you say it about the oswald case? mr. wade. i guess it was friday night probably. i was asked what penalty we would ask for. mr. rankin. when the police made these releases about the evidence, did they ever ask you whether they should make them? mr. wade. no, sir; like i told you. i talked saturday morning around between and , some time. i told him there was entirely too much publicity on this thing, that with the pressure going to be on us to try it and there may not be a place in the united states you can try it with all the publicity you are getting. chief curry said he agreed with me, but, like i said about hours later, i saw him releasing this testimony. mr. rankin. did you consult any state officials about how you should handle either the oswald or the ruby case? mr. wade. i don't know. it seems like i talked to waggoner carr that night, but i don't remember. didn't we talk some time about it? i don't know whether it was consulting about how to try it or anything. but i know i talked to waggoner's office some time within or days, but i don't know whether it was before the ruby assault or not. but he doesn't actually---- mr. rankin. does the texas attorney general have any jurisdiction to tell you how to try such cases? mr. wade. no sir; i think waggoner will agree with that. they don't have any jurisdiction to try criminal cases other than antitrust, but i assume we would ask for their assistance if we wanted it. we don't generally, and i don't, the law doesn't contemplate that. mr. rankin. mr. carr didn't try to tell you in any way how to handle either case? mr. wade. not that i know of. mr. carr. off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. dulles. may we proceed. mr. rankin. mr. wade, will you give us the substance of what mr. carr said to you and what you said to him at that time? mr. wade. all i remember--i don't actually remember or know what night it was i talked to him but i assume it was that night because he did mention that the rumor was out that we were getting ready to file a charge of oswald being part of an international conspiracy, and i told him that that was not going to be done. it was late at night and i believe that is---- mr. dulles. it must have been saturday night, wasn't it? mr. wade. no; that was friday night. mr. dulles. friday night. mr. wade. and i told him, and then i got a call, since this happened, i talked to jim bowie, my first assistant who had talked to, somebody had called him, my phone had been busy and barefoot sanders, i talked to him, and he--they all told that they were concerned about their having received calls from washington and somewhere else, and i told them that there wasn't any such crime in texas, i didn't know where it came from, and that is what prompted me to go down and take the complaint, otherwise i never would have gone down to the police station. mr. rankin. did you say anything about whether you had evidence to support such a complaint of a conspiracy? mr. wade. mr. rankin, i don't know what evidence we have, we had at that time and actually don't know yet what all the evidence was. i never did see, i was told they had a lot of fair play for cuba propaganda or correspondence on oswald, and letters from the communist party, and it was probably exaggerated to me. i was told this. i have never seen any of that personally. never saw any of it that night. but whether he was a communist or whether he wasn't, had nothing to do with solving the problem at hand, the filing of the charge. i also was very, i wasn't sure i was going to take a complaint, and a justice of the peace will take a complaint lots of times because he doesn't have to try it. i knew i would have to try this case and that prompted me to go down and see what kind of evidence they had. mr. rankin. will you tell us what you mean by taking a complaint under your law. mr. wade. well, a complaint is a blank form that you fill out in the name, by the authority of the state of texas, and so forth, which i don't have here, but it charged, it charges a certain person with committing a crime, and it is filed in the justice court. the law permits the district attorney or any of his assistants to swear the witness to the charge. the only place we sign it is over on the left, i believe sworn to and subscribed to before me, this is the blank day of blank, henry wade, district attorney. over on the right the complainant signs the complaint. we mean when we say take or accept a complaint is when we swear the witness and we draw it up ourselves and word it and take it. mr. rankin. is that what you did in the oswald-ruby case? mr. wade. yes, sir; we did that. now, as a practical matter that is not really filing the complaints. the complaint is not really legally filed until a justice of the peace takes it and records it on his docket. now, it goes to the justice of the peace court to clear the whole thing up and his purpose, he has--the law says you shall take him immediately before a magistrate, which is the justice of the peace. the courts have held that it is not necessary in texas, but there is a statute that says that, and then he--his purpose is to hold an examining trial to see whether it is a bailable case or not. then he sends it to the grand jury and the grand jury hears it and returns an indictment or a no bill and then it is in a certain court set with a docket number and then it is ours to try. does that answer some of the questions? (at this point, senator cooper returned to the hearing room.) mr. rankin. which route did you follow in regard to the oswald case? mr. wade. the same route. i accepted the complaint on him in the homicide department, and gave it to david johnston, the justice of the peace who was there incidentally, or there in the homicide department. but i didn't actually type it up. i don't know who actually typed it up, somebody typed it up, but we file about a a year, murders "did with malice aforethought." it was a straight murder indictment, murder with malice charge, and that was the procedure we followed in the oswald case. mr. rankin. why did you not include in that complaint a charge of an international conspiracy? mr. wade. well, it is just like i said, it is surplusage to begin with. you don't need it. if you allege it you have to prove it. the u.s. attorney and the attorney general had called me and said that if it wasn't absolutely necessary they thought it shouldn't be done, and--- mr. rankin. by the "attorney general" who do you mean? mr. wade. mr. carr. and actually it is never done. i mean, you see that got clear, apparently you had the press writing that up, radio or whoever was saying that was--had no idea about what murder was. now, to write in there, assume he was, assume we could prove he was, a communist, which i wasn't able to prove because all i heard was he had some literature there on him and had been in russia, but assume i knew he was a communist, can i prove it, i still wouldn't have alleged it because it is subject actually to be removed from the indictment because it is surplusage, you know, and all a murder indictment, the only thing that a murder indictment varies on is the method of what they used, did kill john doe by shooting him with a gun or by stabbing him or by drowning him in water or how, the manner and means is the only thing that varies in a murder indictment, all other wordage is the same. does that clear that up? (discussion off the record.) senator cooper. as i understand it, under texas law there is no crime which is denominated under the term "international conspiracy." mr. wade. no, sir. senator cooper. i assume that conspiracy is a crime in texas, isn't it, conspiracy to commit a crime? mr. wade. conspiracy is a crime. it is a joining together of a group, your conspiracy where they enter into an agreement to commit a crime, and that is usually the one is indicted as a conspirator, the one who doesn't participate in the crime. senator cooper. my point is, though, that conspiracy is a crime under texas law? mr. wade. yes, sir; conspiracy to commit murder is a crime. senator cooper. yes. let me ask this question. mr. wade. yes, sir. senator cooper. as i understand it then, one of the reasons that no warrant of indictment was rendered upon, touching upon an international conspiracy is that there is just no such crime in texas as an international conspiracy? mr. wade. there was no such crime. if it was any such crime it would be a federal rather than a state offense. if there is such crime as being a part of an international conspiracy it would deal with treason rather than murder, i would think. but there is no such thing as being a part of any organization that makes that it is a crime to commit murder. this was a straight murder charge. if we would have had four or five co-conspirators who conspired with him, planned the thing and could prove it we would have. that would have been a conspiracy to, conspiracy to commit murder. senator cooper. but conspiracy is not essential to the crime, to describe the person accused as belonging to any organization? mr. wade. no, sir; it is not necessary and it is entirely what they call surplusage. senator cooper. now the last question, was there any evidence brought to you or any evidence of which you had knowledge upon which you could base an indictment or a warrant for conspiracy to commit murder in this case? mr. wade. no, sir; you mean parties other than oswald? senator cooper. yes. mr. wade. no. i might say on that score, to clear that up, i haven't seen any evidence along that line. i haven't even seen any of the correspondence that they had, allegedly had with the communist party here in new york or the fair play for cuba, i haven't seen his little black book where he is supposed to have had the russian embassy's telephone numbers in it which i am sure you all have gone into it. i never did see the book, none of that. of course, i have been told by a lot of people and undoubtedly a lot of it was exaggerated that he was a communist, and you have had people say he was a communist who might say i was a communist, you know, if they didn't agree with me on something, so i have absolutely no evidence that he was a communist of my own knowledge, i have heard a lot, of course. mr. dulles. what you are saying in this last answer relates to the present time, not only the way your knowledge has---- mr. wade. at that time and up to the present. mr. dulles. rather than the day of assassination. mr. wade. i have no evidence myself now that he was a communist, or ever was a communist, and i never did see what evidence that they had on him there gathered on him. i never saw any of the physical evidence in the oswald case other than one or two statements, and i think i saw the gun while they were taking it out of there bringing it to washington, because i told them at that stage, they didn't want to take it out, didn't want to let the fbi have it and i told them i thought they ought to let them bring it on up here that night and get it back the next night. there was arguing over that. i am getting off, rambling around, but their argument over that was they were still trying to identify the gun through a pawn broker or something like that and the police wanted to keep it but i said, "let it go up there and they said they would have it back the next afternoon." mr. rankin. have you ever had any evidence that oswald was involved with anyone else in actually shooting the president? mr. wade. well, i will answer that the same way. i have absolutely no evidence myself. now, of course, i might have some type of opinion or some connection with reference to the fair play for cuba and these letters that they told me about. if that was so there may have been some connection or may not, but i have no evidence myself on it. mr. rankin. do you have any evidence as to whether jack ruby was involved with anyone else in the killing of oswald? mr. wade. no, sir; i have no evidence on that. we have some and i think you have them all, some or witnesses who have said they had seen ruby and oswald together at various times. some of them were, i know one of them during the trial was a lawyer there in dallas, which i presume you all got his four-page statement, said he heard them discussing killing connally a week before then, came out to my house and that had been sent to the fbi, and that was during the trial, and i gave him a lie detector which showed that he didn't have, this was a fanciful thing. that, i can't think of his name, some of you all may know it, but he is a lawyer there in dallas. mr. rankin. you found that was not anything you could rely on. mr. wade. i didn't use him as a witness and after giving him the polygraph i was satisfied that he was imagining it. i think he was sincere, i don't think he was trying--i don't think he was trying to be a hero or anything. i think he really thought about it so much i think he thought that it happened, but the polygraph indicated otherwise. mr. dulles. did you have any other evidence than the polygraph on this point that he was not telling the truth or that this was a fiction? mr. wade. no, but i didn't--but i did see a report where the fbi interviewed the girl that was allegedly with him in ruby's place in october, and she didn't corroborate all of it. i think she did say he was in there but i am not even sure of that. i didn't interview her but i just read a report on it. i read where they checked with the department of public safety and they did not, were not able to--he said he reported all this to the department of public safety, and i don't think they found any record of him reporting it. it is very difficult to get him to come in to see me. he didn't just walk in, this went on for a month, i kept hearing that there was a certain person knew about it and i kept telling him to come on and talk to me and he finally came out to my house late one night. the reason i think he actually must have thought it was so, but--i wasn't too interested in that theory of the case on this thing because i had a theory on this ruby case from the start because i, even before you are going to get into some of these officers' testimony in a minute, but when this happened i was going home from church, and my own mind i said i believe that was jack ruby who shot him because from that friday night, and from my theory has been from that friday night, when he saw him there he made up his mind to kill him if he got a chance and i have had that--i didn't even know about dean's testimony which you are going to hear today, i didn't know about his testimony until the day before i put him on the stand because i had not been preparing the evidence, i had been picking a jury for weeks but that was my theory from the start. we had a waitress that i think you are all familiar with that was out at b&b cafe at a.m. on the d who said she served ruby and oswald there. b&b cafe on oak lane, i know you have got that, i have seen it somewhere. i don't think she was ever given a polygraph test. you have about four homosexuals, i think that is probably the word, that have said they have seen them together places. there was some indication that ruby was either bisexual or homosexual, but at least, i think they testified to that in the trial, i think by mistake. belli asked the man, meant to ask him another word and says, he meant to say homicidal tendencies and he said homosexual tendencies and his one witness said yes, sir. that is in the record which you will get of the trial, i guess. mr. rankin. i understood you to say when you came home from church, after the killing of oswald that you thought it was ruby before you had heard that it was ruby. mr. wade. you see, they announced dallas businessman kills him. mr. rankin. yes. mr. wade. i took my family, i was in church with the family. i took them on home and on the way down there they kept--they didn't say who it was but this ran through my mind, a businessman. i said that must be jack ruby the way he looked. he looked kind of wild to me down there friday night the way he was running everywhere, you know, and i said to myself that must be him. i didn't tell my wife. you can't prove that. it is one of those things, that was my theory that he was likely the one. i couldn't, you know, out of a million people i couldn't say he was the one but when they announced his name i will say it didn't surprise me. mr. rankin. mr. chairman, what do you want to do about mr. carr? senator cooper. mr. wade, can you name to the commission the names of the persons who told you or who stated in your presence that they had seen lee oswald and jack ruby together? mr. wade. well---- senator cooper. start out with the first one, his name. mr. wade. if anybody would mention the lawyer's name, i know him--he has run for the legislature a number of times. senator cooper. a lawyer who lives in dallas? mr. wade. a lawyer in dallas, and he has--we have, he made a four-page affidavit about this thing, and mailed it to j. edgar hoover. senator cooper. you can supply his name. mr. wade. we can supply his name and i would supply you with copies of his affidavit which i think you have. don't you have it, isn't that up here? senator cooper. without going into that in a moment, you can refresh your recollection and supply to the commission the name of this lawyer. mr. wade. yes, sir. senator cooper. had he talked to you? mr. wade. yes, sir. senator cooper. what did he say? did he make a written statement to you or just talk to you? mr. wade. he handed me a written statement. he said, "the day after this happened i made this," it was a copy of a written statement, he said, "i sent this to j. edgar hoover in washington." i am talking to him, we will say, the th to the th of february, the first time i talked with him. he said, "i sent this to the fbi, to j. edgar hoover, special delivery air mail within a day or two after the assassination," and he left that and as far as i know i have got a copy of that, he left it with me. he talked to me at length there at my house, just us, and i would say at o'clock at night, it was on a sunday night i know, but what sunday night i don't know. it was on a sunday night in february. i read that statement over. it is a rather startling thing. it didn't ring true to me. it all deals with a conversation between oswald and ruby about killing john connally, the governor of texas, over, he says, they can't get syndicated crime in texas without they kill the governor. i know enough about the situation, the governor has practically nothing to do with syndicated crime. it has to be on a local, your district attorney and your police are the ones on the firing line on that, and they discussed at length killing him, how much they are going to pay him, "he wants five thousand, i believe or half of it now, and half of it when it is done." don't you have this memorandum? mr. rankin. yes. mr. wade. there is no use of me trying to give it to you. senator cooper. i was just personally trying to get your recollection about it. mr. wade. he told me this is what happened, and i said, "i can't put you on the stand without i am satisfied you are telling the truth because," i said, "we have got a good case here, and if they prove we are putting a lying witness on the stand, we might hurt us," and i said, "the only thing i know to do i won't put you on the stand but to take a polygraph to see if you are telling the truth or not." he said, "i would be glad to." and i set it up and i later ran into him in the lawyers' club there and he handed me another memorandum which amplified on the other one, which all have been furnished to the attorney general or if we didn't lose it in the shuffle. this was during the trial actually, and then when the man called me he took a lie detector. there was no truth in it. that he was in the place. he was in the place, in ruby's carousel, but that none of this conversation took place. he said he was in one booth and ruby was in another booth. senator cooper. did anyone else tell you that they had seen ruby and oswald talking together? mr. wade. no one else personally has told me this. senator cooper. you mentioned a girl. mr. wade. no, i never talked to her but we had the dallas police take an affidavit from her and so did the fbi of that which is in all your files. what her name is, i just know it is a waitress out at the b&b cafe. she lived in mesquite, tex., and some of my people interviewed her and she told them the same thing she told the fbi. the other information was in your fbi reports of where people or somebody who claimed he had seen them together in a ymca, if i recall correctly, and another one in a store. the report indicated these, all these people were homosexuals as i believe, or there was an indication of that. i have an interview, in answering your question, in lynn's first, but this is the only one i have talked personally about it. but the rest of them i got from reading the fbi and police files. senator cooper. lynn? mr. wade. i believe that is his first name, and he is a lawyer there. senator cooper. he is the lawyer? mr. wade. that is the lawyer i am thinking about, i am trying to think of his name while i sit here. senator cooper. have you ever talked to anyone or has anyone ever talked to you or in your presence about oswald and named any other person, other than ruby, who they claimed were connected with oswald in the assassination of president kennedy? mr. wade. senator, i don't believe anyone has talked to me. i have received, i guess , letters about this thing from all over the country, which i have down there. i remember somebody wrote me from west virginia and said that in west virginia that oswald was in a used car business and ruby was across the street from him. well, i furnished this information to the investigative agencies but as far as personally, i don't know of any. i have had a lot of letters that said they were connected but not based on anything. senator cooper. but leave ruby out now for a moment, did anyone ever tell you that oswald was connected with persons other than ruby in the assassination of president kennedy? have you heard the names of any other persons who it is claimed had something to do with the assassination of president kennedy? mr. wade. i don't know of any names. of course, like i said there was the head of the fair play for cuba, whatever his name was, was mentioned. everything i know on that score was from the police. when i went up there friday night and again i believe it was saturday night or sunday, they told me that they just talked like he was the biggest communist, they had all kinds of evidence that he was a communist, and that he was working with other people. i believe captain fritz told me once that he showed at the time that oswald bristled most was when they would talk about castro. apparently he was more friendly to castro than he was for instance to khrushchev, i am using those in broad terms. senator cooper. of course, once oswald was killed, then your duties were connected with the prosecution of ruby. mr. wade. yes, sir. senator cooper. and there wasn't any occasion for you then to search out---- mr. wade. i had this, senator. senator cooper. other persons. mr. wade. i had this, senator, i had this, when he was killed and they tried to give me the files. i told them no, to give them to the fbi because we couldn't try him, and i went to work on ruby and actually wouldn't know it. from what i picked up it appeared to me there was no question that he received his inspiration on this and maybe other help from somewhere. senator cooper. that is what i am driving at here. you know there have been statements made that other persons could have been connected with oswald in the assassination of president kennedy. do you have any facts to give the commission which would bear upon that question that any person other than oswald was in any way connected with the assassination of president kennedy? mr. wade. i have no facts that i can give you on it. it is one of these things, and the reason i gave you what my opinion on the thing was, i have read what the u.s. world news and report said the commission is going to say, and also this deal out in japan, you know, where they said that he was not instantaneous, impulsive, i believe, killer of the president, which sounded silly to me. i mean he planned the thing. he practiced shooting, and he had his inspiration from somebody else. whether he had a--was working with someone, i don't know. i never did know, it was rumored all over town that they had an airplane there to carry him out of town. i am sure you all have checked into that but i never know whether they did or not. there seemed to have been something misfired in the thing if there was anybody tried to get it. i don't think there was anybody with him in the shooting but what you are getting at is if there was anyone back of him. i always felt that the minimum was an inspiration from some cause, and the maximum was actual pay, but like you asked for evidence, i don't have any. senator cooper. did you ever hear about any evidence that there was an airplane stationed any place there? mr. wade. they ran it in the newspapers that an airplane was supposedly to pick him up but nobody ever found the airplane, so far as i know. you have had every kind of rumor, this has been a thing that has been, that the press has been most inaccurate in a lot of things they have reported, and it is because of the pressure from their offices to get a ruby story. we have reporters down there coming down and said, "my office said to write something on ruby today, what are we going to write." and it has been so very irresponsible. like i said, i have no evidence and the only thing where i get my impression is reading and hearing people talking but i haven't actually figured it wasn't any of my business on oswald, that i had a problem, a big one of trying ruby and i have concentrated all of my efforts on that and when we had anybody of this nature we would refer them to the fbi or some other agency. senator cooper. thank you. mr. dulles. you referred, mr. wade, to some testimony or some evidence that oswald was at one time in the carousel when ruby was there. was that solely from this lawyer whose testimony you have mentioned? mr. wade. the only one of my personal knowledge that i talked with was from the lawyer. he told me he was there with a certain girl, a stripper, and ruby and oswald were in an adjoining booth. there is lots of other people, i think your master of ceremonies, they had him on television and said he had seen them there but later on said he hadn't when they got to interviewing him. but my own personal knowledge that you are all interested in was that one man who told me that. mr. rankin. was there anyone either from the state or federal government that urged you not to state a crime of international conspiracy if you found one was present? mr. wade. no; not in that light. it is like i mentioned to you what mr. carr and mr. sanders both inquired, said they had heard on the radio about this or talked with someone in washington about it, and i told them right off that whether it was so or not doesn't make any difference. it wouldn't be alleged. i mean if i had known he was a communist i wouldn't have alleged it. i mean, suppose i knew he was a communist, and signed a statement he was a communist. that was a time when the press blew up when they had nothing else to talk about at the time, actually. the answer to your question is "no." mr. rankin. was any statement made by you as to whether or not there was any international conspiracy, conspiracy with oswald about the assassination? mr. wade. no, sir; i don't think there was. i think in one of those interviews you will find that i said they found some literature or something from the fair play for cuba at his home, something to that effect. if i did anything, that was all that was said, in one of those interviews. mr. rankin. did anybody ask you to say anything one way or another about that? mr. wade. if they did i don't remember it. i am sure they asked that, but i am talking about, i mean in all these interviews, that was the thing where they were trying to prove a connection or something, you know, and i told them i knew nothing about it. mr. rankin. but no officials asked you to say anything about it publicly or otherwise? mr. wade. no, sir; not that i recall. mr. rankin. did anybody ask you at any time not to say that a foreign government was involved if you found it was or anything about that? mr. wade. your fbi man may have. i don't know. i talked to him two or three times. i wish i could think of his name because i don't think i ever met him. he was an inspector out of washington. mr. dulles. he is not our fbi man, he is the fbi. we are an independent commission. mr. wade. i see. but he had talked with me something, i think his conversation, as i recall, largely dealt with the giving out of information. he was concerned about it and so was i, and where we had the longest conversation was, i will run through sunday, and get me up to it real fast because i talked to him sunday night. we haven't covered one of my television interviews. after i went down to the police station and i will take this real fast if it is all right with you all, they told me that oswald had been shot and i was there in the chief's office when he died, when oswald died and the chief says i have got to go out here and announce it. so as he went out for a press conference, i went down the back door, went home and went to bed because i was tired and disappointed actually because we got even interested in trying oswald, and i didn't mean to have anything else further to say. i woke up about o'clock and a national commentator was giving the dallas police hell, me hell, and just about everybody hell, and saying that i had said that the case, there would be nothing further on the case, it would be closed, in which i had never even had a television interview, i don't know where they got it. somebody might have said that. i don't know but it wasn't me because i hadn't talked to anybody. and then i went out to dinner and got to thinking, i said, well now, the dallas police did have a breakdown in security here, and they are taking a beating and i am taking a beating, but they did have the right man according to my thinking, so i went down to the police station and got all the brass in there but chief curry and i said this stuff, people are saying on there you had the wrong man and you all were the one who killed him or let him out here to have him killed intentionally, i said somebody ought to go out in television and lay out the evidence that you had on oswald, and tell them everything. it had been most of it laid out but not in chronological order. mr. rankin. when was this now? mr. wade. this was o'clock roughly on the th. sunday night. i sat down with captain fritz and took a pencil and pad and listed about seven pieces of evidence from my own knowledge and i was going to write it down. they got hold of chief curry and he said no, that he had told this inspector of the fbi that there would be nothing further said about it. i asked chief batchelor and lumpkin, they were all there, i said you all are the ones who know something about it, i said if you have at least got the right man in my opinion the american people ought to know. this is evidence you can't use actually, because he is dead. you can't try him. and the upshot of that was the police wouldn't say a word and refused actually to furnish me any more of the details on this. i mean what the seven points. i went on out there in from front of the cameras and ran them through those points. actually my purpose in it was, good or bad was, because the dallas police were taking a beating because they had solved the crime and had good evidence and i told them it was good but i did leave out some things and i was a little inaccurate in one or two things but it was because of the communications with the police. i didn't have the map, incidentally. i wanted the map at that time but forgot all about it, and i ran through just what i knew, which probably was worse than nothing. it probably would have been better off without giving anything, because we didn't give what all we had. mr. dulles. do you remember the elements of inaccuracy that got into this statement of yours? mr. wade. i think i told them about the palmprint on the bottom of the gun, that lane has made a great issue of and i still think i was right on it but he has made an issue. i think oswald snapped the pistol over there in the jail or at least in the theater where they arrested him. there was a question of whether the gun had been snapped or not and i was told it was, you all may have seen the gun; i never have seen the gun. you had--i might have at that stage said what bullets are supposed to hit whom. that might have been somewhat inaccurate then but that is all i can think of. i don't think there is any basic thing. but my purpose in that, and i know the minute i got off that television, inspection called me and said please say nothing further about this case. well, you see, at that stage---- mr. dulles. who was it that called you? mr. wade. the inspector at fbi called me in the police station. he was the one the police had talked to. he was the man from dallas down there. it wasn't shanklin, shanklin was in charge of the office. but i told him what my purpose was but apparently someone told him. i gathered since he had delivered a message, apparently someone had told him to have me quit talking about it. but my purpose on that was, i never did think that the people or the television were giving the right facts on the thing and they were making believe that probably they didn't have the right one, that the dallas police had him in there to kill him, they even had commentators saying practically that, don't you know. so, i did that entirely--not anything for me. you may think i wanted to be on television. i didn't care a thing about being because i don't run for office in new york and washington and other places, but i thought the police needed, because their morale was awfully low and they were at fault in ruby killing him. there was undoubtedly a breakdown on security there in the basement. mr. rankin. on the seven points were any of them that were new that hadn't already been told to the public? mr. wade. to tell you the truth, i don't know. i think there were some of them that hadn't been but i think most of them had. but i couldn't see at this stage the evidence on this thing, nobody, the situation where you had an assassination, and a dead person and another case pending, and it was against my interest actually, to trying ruby, it would be a whole lot better trying ruby if he killed the wrong man than if he killed the assassin of the president, but i was trying to establish that this was the assassin of the president. and i didn't give all the evidence, and i don't know whether there was anything new or not because i didn't see much of television during all this time. i don't actually know everything that was given out, and there was so much in the papers that i didn't have time to read them, so i didn't know for sure what all the police had given out. senator cooper. substantially then, you were laying out to the public the facts which had led you to issue a warrant for oswald as the killer of president kennedy? mr. wade. that was the purpose of that interview. you also have to--i don't know where you gentlemen were, but you have to get a picture of what was going on. you had, of course, there in dallas, you had threats on people's lives everywhere. as a matter of fact, it ran over the radio that i had been assassinated, for hours, on monday morning. i wasn't listening to the radio. my wife called me up--called me up and i denied it. [laughter.] mr. wade. but you had lots of things of that kind. and i thought you needed some type of, somebody--and your whole thing was wrong with this whole deal, you had no one in charge of the thing. you had the police, the fbi, the secret service, the department of justice, my department, waggoner carr's department, but no one had any say to offer the rest of them. mr. rankin. tell us how that affected it. you had the jurisdiction of the crime itself. mr. wade. of the trial of the case. mr. rankin. and the police department, what jurisdiction did they have? mr. wade. they had the jurisdiction, the primary responsibility for the investigation of the assassination, and--they had the primary job of finding out who did it and getting the evidence. they were assisted, the secret service, of course, had the job of protecting the president. the fbi, they have criminal, pretty general, investigation, i am not sure, but they were in on it, they were all there, and assisting. it was a deal where nobody had any actual control over another person. mr. rankin. had the state authorities any jurisdiction or effect on the operation? mr. wade. you mean the state? mr. rankin. of texas. mr. wade. they actually had none. they had no authority. the governor has no authority in a situation like this nor the attorney general other than in a vague sort of way, as the police, i guess they had the police powers to some extent of maintaining order but you didn't need the national guard or anything. i mean this was more dealing with a situation of information. i think this situation is true in many states, in practically all of them. mr. rankin. was that confusing, did that make it harder to try to solve the crime and handle the problems? mr. wade. it did; very much so. your press was the most confusing thing. i mean you couldn't get in the police station. i mean i just barely could get into the police station myself for stomping over the press and you had a lot of reporters, not like the reporters we usually deal with down there. i mean we don't have trouble usually with the local press, people we pretty well know. we would tell them what is going on, and they will go on, but these people just followed everybody everywhere they went, and they were throwing policemen on the corner, if he made a statement about he saw someone running that way dressed maybe like the killer--they ran all that on. they were just running everybody. there was no control over your public media. it made it worse since all television networks were on the assassination all-- hours, i mean all day. and there was no central thing from--there was no central person who had any control of handling the thing that information was given out. you see they interviewed some of your patrolmen who were giving out evidence, you know, some of your foot patrolmen on the corner, they were interviewing anybody. mr. rankin. would it help or hinder the handling of such a crime of the killing of the president if it was a federal crime, in your opinion? mr. wade. well, offhand, i think probably it would, but---- mr. rankin. it would help? mr. wade. i think it would help, but you are going to have the same situation. i am thinking if you had, if it is a federal crime, for instance, it is still murder in texas. if captain fritz and the dallas police had arrested this man, the fbi wouldn't have had him. i don't care if it was a federal crime. we have bank robberies where there is joint jurisdiction. the one that gets him, if it is the state police or the city police gets them, they file with me and if the fbi gets them they file with the federal. mr. rankin. you need more control over the police investigation in order to carry out your duties, is that---- mr. wade. of course; my idea if you had it to do over, it is easy to do that, but i think you need someone where all the information is channeled through one person. if anything is given out and getting an intelligent person, not just a police officer, you know. now, your city manager of dallas is a newspaper man, elgin crull, he would have been an ideal person and he was there but i don't think he ever said anything in any way. he was there in the middle of all that thing. mr. rankin. is the lawyer that you referred to in answer to senator cooper's questions carroll jarnegan? mr. wade. carroll jarnegan is his name; yes, sir. let me mention another thing for the record here. i don't know whether it is mentioned. saturday, most of my day was spent in talking to dean r. g. storey, and the dean of the harvard law school, raising, wondering what the situation was with reference to attorneys for oswald. mr. rankin. what saturday are you talking about? mr. wade. saturday the d, ; november . i told them that, all of them, we had calls from various people, and most of them was from people here in the east calling lawyers there in dallas rather than me, and them calling me. mr. rankin. what were they saying to you about that? mr. wade. well, they were very upset, one, in looking at american justice where the man didn't have an attorney, as apparently, and two, that too much information was being given to the press too, by the police and by me, some of them had said, and that is what prompted me probably to talk to chief curry about the thing, because i had received some of those calls. i told them they ought to appoint the president of the bar association and the president of the criminal bar association to represent him. mr. rankin. who did you tell that to? mr. wade. told that to mr. paul carrington and also to mr. storey, i believe. i believe they are the two that discussed it more at length with me. mr. rankin. do you know whether anything was done about that? mr. wade. yes. mr. rankin. what? mr. wade. they got ahold of louis nichols who is the president of the dallas bar association. they got ahold of the president of the criminal bar association, but they had started a tippit fund in the meantime, and practically every lawyer was scared they were going to be appointed, you know, and they had gone and subscribed to that fund so they were having much trouble getting a lawyer appointed. now, i must go a little further and tell you that under texas law that is an improper time to appoint them. the only one who can actually appoint him is the judge after indictment under the texas law, no one else has really authority. louis nichols, i talked to him, the president of the bar, and he was trying to get some criminal lawyer to go down there with him, and i said, "go down there yourself and talk to him because they are raising just so much cain about it and see what they want and tell him you will get him a lawyer." senator cooper. you are speaking now about a lawyer for oswald? mr. wade. yes; for oswald. this was around noon or some time on saturday, noon, early afternoon. this went on all day. he called me back and said, "i have talked to him and told him i would get him a lawyer, that i would represent him or get him a lawyer." louis nichols is a civil lawyer, not actually a criminal lawyer. he says, "he doesn't want but one lawyer, john abt, in new york." mr. rankin. who is he? mr. wade. he is an attorney in new york. mr. rankin. you said he didn't want any attorney? mr. wade. lee harvey oswald told nichols and nichols told me this. he said that. nichols then said he told him, along with the police they would try to get ahold of mr. abt, which they did. i think, i think maybe the press found him before the lawyers found him. but he says something that he didn't have time or something, as i understand it. this was all reported in the press. he had said the second person he wanted, lee harvey oswald told nichols the second person he wanted, was some lawyer out in chicago with the american civil liberties union, his name i don't know what it was, but nichols would know. he said, "if i can't get either one of those i will help get a local lawyer," because that was all done saturday, with reference to his obtaining a lawyer. i wanted to get that because i think you probably knew it and get it in the record anyhow. mr. rankin. now going back to this telephone conversation with mr. carr that you referred to, do you remember anything else that mr. carr said to you at that time? mr. wade. i don't actually even remember, you know, he said that he had had a call from washington, i don't actually remember anything about that. i remember he said that about this charge that this is going. "this would be a bad situation, if you allege it as part of a russian, the russian conspiracy, and it may affect your international relations, a lot of things, of the country," and i said it was silly because i don't know where the rumor started but i will see even if it was so we could prove it, i wouldn't allege it. isn't that about it, the way you recall it, mr. carr? senator cooper. we will call him in a minute. mr. wade. o.k. mr. rankin. was he during that conversation saying anything to you about not alleging it if it were true? mr. wade. no, sir; it was a question of, he had heard we were going to allege it and he asked me about it and i said it is silly. i had heard something, i think, about it, about the same time. and to no one, if it was part of it, no one said they necessarily wanted to hush the thing up, but it was a situation where the minute they mentioned what their problem was, it sounded silly to me, i said whether he is a member of the communist party or not is not important in this charge. senator cooper. was there any official, anyone on your staff or any persons charged with law enforcement in dallas, or any u.s. district attorney in dallas or anyone connected with his office, to your knowledge ever suggest that there should be a charge of conspiracy? mr. wade. none to my knowledge. now, i will say in some of these conversations, like i said, i don't know whether it was with waggoner carr or barefoot sanders, they said, one said, "well, david johnston, the j. p. has said this," and the other one has said, "bill alexander, one of your assistants who was up at the police department said it." i asked them both about it and they both denied it. senator cooper. did anyone ever say to you in the event there was a charge of conspiracy who would be named other than oswald? mr. wade. no; there is no other names, there is no other name that i know of that has ever been mentioned to me as being part of the conspiracy. the question we are talking about here, if i understand it, being that oswald, as a part of an international conspiracy, did murder john fitzgerald kennedy. and there is no other names of co-conspirators, we have had lots of leads run down upon it. somebody at the penitentiary down there, a colored person, at least the word to us, that he had told the guard he had hauled oswald away from there, you all probably got this, but we interviewed him down there. he was just talking and wanting to come back to dallas. but there had been lots of things of that kind but to my knowledge none of them have actually been proven out. mr. rankin. mr. wade, i don't think you have quite finished the--all of your--hour-by-hour description of what happened up through the killing of mr. oswald. mr. wade. i thought i had hit it. the only thing i can't remember now is the saturday night. it seemed like i was down at the police station saturday night. why i don't know and maybe for a short while and don't recall everything that happened. that was saturday, d of november, and there is nothing, the charge had already been taken, and i think probably i was on my way home and just stopped by to see what was going on. at that time there wasn't anything going on and i went home. mr. rankin. did you do anything more about the press and tv and radio people crowding into the police station than you have already described? mr. wade. no; you see--i have been in that building probably once every years. it is the other end of town from my building. i never go up there and i don't think it is my business what goes on up there. maybe it should be, but i have never been considering it. i think i have enough problems down at my end of the street. mr. rankin. in any event you didn't do anything. mr. wade. i didn't tell them anything, i could see the confusion they were getting into but i don't know of anything that i told about, but what if i did, i had no control over it. it was one of those things i just figured i was the one who didn't have the say in it. mr. rankin. what did you do on sunday, the th? mr. wade. well, went to church. mr. rankin. the th. mr. wade. i went to church, my family and i went to dr. w. j. martin's nondenominational church. it has different denominations, very bright fellow, if you are in dallas you ought to go and hear him. and as i walked out somebody said they shot oswald. so i took--turned on the radio and took my wife and kids home, and went down to the police station. there were still fragments of the story coming in, and we would still get every kind of story out of them, and we got down there at i guess : . he died and then like i said, i think all i told the press, they asked me as i left there, a few of them what we would do on ruby and i said we would ask the death penalty on him, and then i left and i went home and then i followed it that night and giving them what evidence i had. mr. rankin. did you have anything to do with a lawyer by the name of tom howard in connection with that? mr. wade. no, sir; tom howard had filed some kind of writ of habeas corpus, assault to murder, and i never did see him. i saw bob stinson, another lawyer on a corner and he said he and robey were going to represent him, which, i don't think they did, but they said they were and so i went on home, and then when he died, we had a murder case, and we took it to the grand jury the next morning, i believe, on monday morning and indicted him, turned it into judge joe brown's court and i was there, and as the grand jury walked in he said, "when are you going to hear ruby?" and i said, "i already have got the indictment here," and i said, then i went right back and asked the judge to transfer it over to judge henry king's court or frank wilson's court. mr. rankin. do you know what happened to that habeas corpus of tom howard's? mr. wade. no. mr. rankin. you didn't have anything to do with it? mr. wade. i understand from hearsay it disappeared or somewhere down there but we don't have anything to do with writs. but they don't come through our office. you see that is directed by the judge. i heard or at least decker or somebody told me they never could find the writ but there was some writ for assault to murder originally issued. and then, of course, after he died and the murder charge was filed, well, that would actually be out of date. senator cooper. was it a writ of habeas corpus to bring oswald before a court? mr. wade. no. jack ruby. senator cooper. jack ruby. mr. wade. it was actually, they have two kinds of writs, one of them is where they set a bond on it and another one is what they have called a dry writ which says, "you file on him or bring him before me at such and such a time." which one it was i don't know. as a matter of fact, i thought there was a bond set on it, but i told the chief, i said, "you can hold him, we don't want to release him until you know whether the person dies or not because then he wouldn't be a bailable case," assault to murder is bailable. i never saw the writ or anything. i just heard somebody say there is a writ on him. (at this point, chairman warren entered the hearing room.) mr. rankin. did you ever help ruby about any of his troubles of any kind? mr. wade. not that i know of. mr. rankin. prior to this occasion? mr. wade. no; i think we have had him for a liquor violation or something, but if we have--like i say, i never knew him. i think that they have had some charges against him. as a matter of fact, they had two pistol charges against him but i don't think they ever reached my office. mr. rankin. do you know what charges they were about pistols? mr. wade. carrying a concealed weapon and if i understand the record i think we checked it out and they dismissed them up in the police force. there was one liquor case that was dismissed in my office by an assistant who is no longer there which i have read the reports on and don't have any recollection of it either way. mr. rankin. did you know eva grant? mr. wade. no, sir. mr. rankin. ruby's sister. do you know sam ruby? mr. wade. i knew none of them, none of the ruby family, and didn't know jack ruby. i think he claims that he had known me or something or other but if he had, it is one of those things where you see somebody and i didn't know his name or anything when i saw him that night or didn't know who he was. i thought he was a member of the press, actually. mr. rankin. did it come to your attention that there was some claim that oswald was an agent of one of the intelligence agencies of government? mr. wade. i heard that talk down there. it was talk some---- mr. rankin. do you know who was talking that? mr. wade. i don't know. i have been up here once before, and some of the press were--i don't remember, some of the press mentioned that they had two voucher numbers in his book there that indicated he was working for the fbi or the cia. i know nothing about them, don't think anybody in my office does. i think maybe alexander mentioned it some, but alexander is not a great lover of the fbi. they fuss all the time openly, so i don't know. i know nothing about it myself because i never have seen the book and i don't know whether they have even got any numbers in there but they were supposed to have two numbers in there as a voucher number of $ from some government agency but like i say, supposed to. i never saw it and heard it, talk, but i am sure you all know more about it than i do. mr. dulles. by voucher you mean an entry or something of that kind, what kind of a voucher? mr. wade. i think it was called a voucher number, it was voucher , which doesn't make sense. i believe it was a low number. it doesn't make sense for a government to have a voucher number that low. mr. rankin. what book are you referring to? mr. wade. the little black book that oswald had in his possession at the time he was arrested. mr. rankin. that was his memorandum book, in which he had a list of numbers of various people and addresses and so forth, is that what you referring to? mr. wade. yes; and i never have seen the book myself. as a matter of fact, i am trying to get some photos of it, trying to but i haven't gotten them yet. mr. rankin. now what agency was it rumored he was a member of? mr. wade. it was rumored he worked first for the fbi and then for the cia. mr. rankin. is that all you have heard? mr. wade. as a matter of fact, i don't think i had ever heard that until waggoner carr called me and told me--i don't think i ever heard that. i did check into it a little, and they were talking it some, and they have actually written it up in the newspapers by rumors or a story or two--rumors of the thing. mr. rankin. is that the report by the reporter hudkins? mr. wade. i believe it is. on the houston paper, hudkins. i believe we got that introduced in the ruby trial on the change of venue motion. mr. rankin. is there anything more that you know about that matter? mr. wade. i know absolutely nothing about it. i might say, i was under the impression, i think when i talked to you and the chief justice before, that, you see i was in the fbi, and i was under the impression and i think maybe i told you all that we didn't list our informant by name. the fbi have been kind enough to send down some of my old vouchers on paying informants back in, down in south america, and i see that we did list them by name which i--probably may, if i said otherwise it was just my recollection on the thing but in that case i was listing informants from south america that we were paying when i was there. mr. rankin. there was one other report by goulden, reporter of the philadelphia inquirer. did that ever come to your attention in regard to this matter? mr. wade. no; but i know him. he used to be a reporter in dallas, but i don't know what it was, if you will tell me about it. mr. rankin. apparently it was the same thing. mr. wade. different angle. mr. rankin. from hudkins' report that had been picked up. mr. wade. he is more reliable than hudkins but i know absolutely nothing about that. like i say, i have heard rumors and conversation and i will even put it further, i don't think alexander knows anything about it, my assistant, although he doesn't fully admit all that. i think he would like to talk a little about it but i don't think he knows anything of his own knowledge. mr. rankin. have you inquired of him? mr. wade. i have asked him about it and he gives me nothing in the way of evidence. mr. rankin. did you prepare the complaint in regard to jack ruby yourself? mr. wade. i don't believe i did. i don't believe i had anything to do with it. if i did, my name will show on it but i don't think i had anything to do with it. mr. rankin. did you give any information to the press about what you had in regard to that prosecution, and the nature of the evidence? mr. wade. no; not that i know of. of course, they all saw it on television, you know. we have got in--to bring you through the whole story, i said practically nothing about this thing for about weeks or a month, but we had a lawyer on the other side who came into town and every time he was met at the airport he would make statements. mr. rankin. who was that? mr. wade. mr. melvin belli, and he had his psychiatrist on the television, all his witnesses, said what he was going to prove and it got to a situation where i had to do a little talking in self-defense, and so we did later on have some statements more or less in answer to his. it was entirely too much trying of that in the newspapers but a situation where we couldn't let his psychiatrist go on there and prove he had been insane on the jury without at least our saying we had some evidence that he was sane. mr. rankin. did you have anything to do with the preparation of the case for trial? mr. wade. yes, to some extent. you see i had four assistants to assist me in the trial. mr. rankin. who were they? mr. wade. jim bowie, frank watt, and bill alexander. i read most of the reports on it. i mean i had most of what i did was read things on it because my main job in the trial as we started out was for me to pick the jury, which i did, i think i have some ability along that line, and do a great deal of the cross examination and the final argument. that is what i do in the cases i participate in usually. mr. rankin. yes. mr. wade. alexander spent the weeks we were picking a jury in viewing the witnesses. i never talked to any of the witnesses. after the first half a day of testimony i was very disappointed in the way the witnesses were being put on the stand; if this is of interest to you. mr. rankin. tell us what happened. mr wade. i told him, i said, on this case we are going on this theory, i want everybody who saw ruby from the time of the assassination of president kennedy down to the time he killed oswald, i want to prove where he was every minute of the time that i can and then we will take it from there and put the films on there and show what happened there and then afterward. we are going on the theory that he is a glory seeker and a hero because i was convinced that was the motive of the killing. i put on seven witnesses, and about six of them testified against us, i think, or made poor witnesses saying if they saw him down in the dallas news where he was minutes in a stare that never made any sense. some of them said they thought there was something wrong with him and none of them were the type of witnesses that i wanted testifying for the state. mr. rankin. who were they? mr. wade. well, you can check the first seven witnesses in the case. you had three from the dallas news who testified, and so during that noon hour, i was convinced, whether right or wrong that alexander had been more interested in talking to the press. in my office our biggest problem was keeping the press out of the office, and so i just would have to bar them from my office, i mean personal property. he wouldn't do it. he liked to talk to them. so, i said, "get all these witnesses in during the noon hour and let me talk to them." i put all the witnesses on the next morning. i talked to all the officers, i talked to officers dean, mcmillon, archer, king never had talked with them about the case before and i talked with them then and i put all of them on next morning. mr. rankin. tell us what starting with--which one did you talk to first, archer, dean, or mcmillon. mr. wade. i think i talked to all of them at first in a body. i talked to---- mr. rankin. i see. mr. wade. i had them all in there and said "now what do you know about the case?" because a lot of them i didn't know what they knew. mr. rankin. what did they say? mr. wade. as a matter of fact, i wasn't familiar with dean's testimony until he told me right there a day before he testified. then he showed me the memorandum that he had made on the thing. i talked with him there and i put archer on the next morning and mcmillon on, who stayed all day. they cross-examined him from : until : . then i put king on, and then dean, i believe the next morning, and we rested. but they told me just what they testified to in the trial which i don't know whether i can give all of it but i can tell you roughly that mcmillon and archer were partners and heard ruby say some things, "i hope i killed the sonofabitch." mr. rankin. when? mr. wade. within about a few seconds after the killing and then upstairs then, "i meant to shoot three times but you all got me before i did." incidentally, you may not know it but their psychiatrist corroborated that statement. mr. rankin. who was that? mr. wade. dr. guttmacher on cross-examination. we asked dr. guttmacher, "well, didn't ruby tell you that he meant to shoot three times?" he said, "yes; and he told me that." he said, "one time he told me that." he also said at one time he told him otherwise but he corroborated that portion of it. then it seemed like there was something else said. archer said to him as he got up in the jail, "i believe he is going to die, jack." i may be getting these wrong, but they are roughly--he said something about, "you fellows couldn't do it," or talking about the police, and, i believe that was archer and mcmillon. maybe you all being lawyers, in texas this is not admissible unless it is part of the res gestae. mr. belli sent into mcmillon all conversations in the jail that happened hours later. under our law if one side goes into a conversation we can bring out anything in the conversation, the rest of the conversation. that is a rule of law in texas, i don't know whether it is that way everywhere else, and so that was the theory that made dean's testimony admissible because had been in the jail--time varies from minutes to an hour, depending on who you are listening to. senator cooper. i have to go to a quorum call. (at this point, senator cooper left the hearing room.) mr. rankin. mr. wade, could you tell us a little more clearly what was involved in regard to this testimony? did the defense start introducing testimony concerning these conversations, is that what you are telling us? mr. wade. the defense cross-examined mcmillon--you see mcmillon and archer stayed with ruby until o'clock that afternoon when he was turned over to captain fritz or roughly. i am giving a rough hour of o'clock. mr. rankin. where did they stay with him? mr. wade. in the jail. they were--i don't say both of them were there but they were assigned there and another person. the three of them or two of them were there at all times, along with your jailers, they were inside the jail. during this time he went into conversations, for instance he said, "didn't i tell you that he left his dog out in the car?" he said, "yes, they did," but this is something that happened an hour and a half after they had been in jail. mr. rankin. by "he" there you mean ruby? mr. wade. ruby. and they said also, "didn't he tell you about going to the western union," and he said, "weren't you there when sorrels and dean came up there, and what was the first thing that sorrels asked him." mr. rankin. did they say when that was? mr. wade. well, you are going to find your time varies from minutes to an hour, depending on whether it is a defense theory or our theory, but---- mr. rankin. after what? mr. wade. after the killing of oswald. mr. rankin. yes. mr. wade. i think dean, i would rather you get the record, and you can get it accurate, but i think he said it was some time before minutes to or some time before . well, the killing happened at : , i think. that seems to be the best time, : . mr. rankin. did they describe what the conversation was with ruby when sorrels and dean were there? mr. wade. they told, if i recall, what sorrels asked him and he asked him "what did you do it for, jack?" or something; they knew that part of it but they weren't present during that conversation between--they were in the room but i may say not within hearing distance. they heard part of what was said but not all of the conversation. mr. rankin. by "they" who do you mean? mr. wade. i am talking about mcmillon and archer. mr. rankin. what did they hear? mr. wade. well, that is all i know that was testified to. now, whether they heard anything else i don't know. but that is all i know, the beginning of the conversation. they had heard previous to this coming up there the conversation about jack, "i think he is going to die," and jack answered some question, i believe he said, "you couldn't do it, somebody had to," or something like that. jack ruby, i am referring to. mr. rankin. where did that occur? mr. wade. that occurred as they arrived on the floor where the jail is, the fifth floor, i believe, of the jail. mr. rankin. then what else could they testify to? mr. wade. that was about all we used them for, actually, that was the last that we put on, but they asked them some questions of what happened. didn't he tell captain fritz something at o'clock that afternoon, but our testimony from them actually that amounted to anything quit when they came on to the floor there of the jail. that is mcmillon and archer. shortly thereafter, dean's testimony came on and only--i am kind of anticipating your questions on this. mr. rankin. where was dean then? mr. wade. they were in the jail. dean---- mr. rankin. who else? mr. wade. sorrels, forest sorrels. i am not testifying as a fact but this was all told to me, of course, by dean and sorrels. mr. rankin. yes. mr. wade. the following day during the noon hour i found for the first time that sorrels was present in the jail. i told the sheriff there i would like to talk to sorrels and he came down there and he and dean and i talked in my office. mr. rankin. that is the following day? mr. wade. that is thursday before we rested the case on friday. mr. rankin. will you tell us the approximate date that you talked to him? mr. wade. it seems like we started on the th, and this was weeks---- mr. rankin. th of what month? mr. wade. of february. maybe we started on the th, because they ended on the th, th to the th, i would say this was around the th of march roughly, a day or two either way. i sat down there to talk to dean and sorrels because we was going to put--and sorrels showed me a copy of his report made on that incident which i didn't keep a copy but i am sure you all have a copy of it or it will be available to you. i read it over, and essentially from what dean said, and him were the same with other than the, i think the only variance was the part which was strong testimony where dean said that ruby said, "the first time i thought of killing him was friday night or thought about killing him was friday night in the lineup." mr. rankin. sorrels didn't have that in his statement, did he? mr. wade. he didn't have that in his statement, and i, to go back a little bit, i asked sorrels how he got up in the jail and he said he didn't know, and he said he didn't actually know dean there sitting in my office. i think he finally decided dean was the one but he didn't know him. i think it is pretty obvious that dean, because they went in an unusual entrance to the jail from the third floor, from the chief's office, and he says there are two guards standing on each side of him which none of the others corroborate, unless they are talking about jail guards in the building, but there was no police in uniform supposed to be up on that floor but sorrels said that he saw two police guards on each side of him. but i asked sorrels, i said, "how can you account for it?" i had already talked to dean. i said, "i am getting ready to put him on the stand." i said, "how are you going to--what are you going to say if you go on the stand on this?" he said, "well, i called my office in washington and they wanted me to find out two things: one, whether there was any connection between oswald and ruby from ruby, and two, whether ruby had any confederates or co-conspirators." he said, "those were the two things i went to find out and i dwelled on those entirely." he said, "these other officers were there and when i left they were still questioning," and he said, "i couldn't say whether that happened, i don't remember hearing it, i just can't say that i heard it," and so the defense lawyers talked to sorrels that night about testifying and didn't use him. of course, i thought probably they were going to use him on this one thing, but there were so many other things in the statement that were the same as what dean has testified to about, something about being a hero, jew hero, or something in the statement, which sorrels had that in his statement. he had practically everything in the statement, but this is one thing that he didn't have in there, as i recall. i couldn't find it and asked him about it and he said he couldn't say it. he said there were a lot of things in there but he was interested in knowing only two things. mr. rankin. did you examine dean's statement in regard to this matter? mr. wade. well, i read it there that day. it is a very short one, you know. of course, there is more than one statement. mr. rankin. yes; did you look at his prior statements at that time? mr. wade. i think i had all of his statements. he was in charge of security in the basement. all statements, this all came out on cross-examination, dealt entirely with the matter of security, what was done to secure the basement. mr. rankin. did he say anything in regard to this premeditation in the prior statement? mr. wade. i don't think he did, and i don't think he actually said anything about how ruby got in in that prior statement. i may be wrong, i don't remember even going into the conversation with ruby. mr. rankin. what did dean tell you at the time that you asked him about the later statement? mr. wade. he told me that he had been asked to submit a report dealing with the security of the basement, and that that first report was the security problem. mr. rankin. what did he say about that, the security? mr. wade. well, he said that, he told me, that when he heard the shot that he thought a policeman had shot him because he didn't think there was anybody else in the basement. he said he thought a policeman had shot him, just got mad and the cop shot him for killing officer tippit. i don't know whether that was in the statement or not but he told me that. i actually read that, that security, we were not too interested in that because from our point of view, because there is no question the security wasn't good. something happened somewhere. mr. rankin. did you learn from dean how ruby got into the basement? mr. wade. i learned the way he told him he got in. mr. rankin. how was that? mr. wade. on walking in on main street, the ramp down on main street. and i was under the impression he told a lot of other people that. but if he had been in that basement a long time it would have helped us a lot to know it. it would have shown more premeditation, but i don't think he actually had been in long from what i know about the case. but ruby told dean in his statement that he got in by going to the western union and walking there and the cop was helping a car go out into it. i don't know whether that is dean, that is somebody's statement, that he went in that ramp and was there maybe a minute or two before they brought him out. mr. rankin. did dean tell you why he left out of his prior statements the statement about premeditation or prior thinking about killing oswald? mr. wade. well, he was cross-examined about that, and told me also that he wasn't asked about it. that that wasn't part of what his report concerned. i mean, you have to keep in mind dean is a uniformed officer. he is sergeant, had nothing to do with the investigation of the crime. he just happened to be the one who was sent up there to show sorrels how to get in the jail and out, you know. he wasn't an investigative officer. now, mcmillon and archer are detectives, you know, but he is not. he is a uniformed man. mr. rankin. what did mcmillon tell you about his statement? mr. wade. he just told me what his testimony was. i didn't actually talk to him over minutes, i don't guess, during the noon hour and i was talking to all of them. i had the various statements he made, some of what he said was in the statements and some wasn't, so i don't remember--but the same story was where he was and what he was supposed to do and one dealt with security and the other dealt with statement that he had made. dean and mcmillon and any of them didn't think these statements were admissible while he was in the jail. mr. rankin. did mcmillon make a statement about premeditation? mr. wade. he had in his statement that he meant to shoot three times, which was premeditation, but i don't think he thought about it friday night. mr. rankin. what about archer, did he have anything in his statement about friday night in his prior statements? mr. wade. no, sir; i don't think he did. he did have about the intending to shoot three times. mr. rankin. when dean was telling you about this statement about planning to shoot oswald on friday night, was he telling you that ruby had told him that? mr. wade. yes. mr. rankin. he didn't tell that to sorrels? mr. wade. i think he said he told it to both of them. i think that the question on that, he said when he saw the snarl on his face he first thought about killing him. now the snarl on his face could have been friday night or saturday night. mr. dulles. that is on oswald's face? mr. wade. on oswald's face. and i think that, i am not sure of this, but i think that sorrels remembers saying something about the snarl on his face. but i think the question was whether they were talking before the time of the shooting of oswald or whether they was talking about friday night and it is dean's impression that when he saw the snarl on his face is when he first thought about killing him. i don't think he ever testified he planned to kill him or anything. i think he said that is the first time he thought about killing him. mr. rankin. what i wanted to get clear for the commission was whether ruby was telling this in answer to questions from dean or in answer to questions from sorrels? mr. wade. i think largely sorrels. i think at the end dean asked him one or two questions, mostly about how he got in, i think. i think that is what dean was asking him about. but i think actually that this came out in the conversation while sorrels was at least taking the lead in questioning him. and i think, my recollection is at the end, as sorrels got through and walked on over to the elevator, he asked him how he got in the jail or something on that score rather than on this subject. now, dean is under the impression that all this came out while sorrels was there. but i don't think sorrels, at least, didn't have it in his notes and i don't think he would say it didn't happen but he didn't remember it, you know. mr. rankin. did you make any further investigation of this addition or change in the statements of dean and these other people? mr. wade. i don't think there is any change in the statement. i think you are asking a kind of a misleading question. i think that first report dealt entirely with the security in the basement of the thing. mr. rankin. you don't think that purported to relate what the conversation was? mr. wade. up in the jail, i don't think, you may have it there, and i may be wrong. i never questioned him any more because like i said from the time of the killing of lee harvey oswald i thought that friday night was the time, in my own mind, that is what i thought, he had thought about killing him. i don't say he said he would go arm himself, but in my own mind i had that feeling all along and i thought it was the first time he had thought about it, that is where i discounted all the other theories there was a connection between them because i saw him there and talked to him, and saw his excited demeanor, and so you asked me did i question him any more, he finally told me, what i actually thought were the facts and i do now incidentally. mr. rankin. you have already testified that you thought it was jack ruby before you even knew the name. mr. wade. well, you may--i may have stressed a little saying thought. when i was driving down there they said dallas businessman kills him, without his name. but in my own mind i said it must have been that jack ruby that was down there the night before. i mean i was just talking to myself, there wasn't nobody there. but like i say, one of those things, i might be more truthful to say it ran through my mind rather than to say i thought. mr. dulles. you didn't say that to your wife? mr. wade. i didn't say it to a soul. i went down there alone. i took her home. we don't live four or five blocks and i drove downtown myself, and it entered my mind and i will say when they announced it i wasn't too surprised. i mean i had or thought about him as a possibility. mr. rankin. now, did you get any assistance from the fbi, secret service, and other agencies in the handling of these cases? mr. wade. practically none. i never have seen the secret service file. this sorrels is the only one i talked with and i saw his report although i never did get a copy of it. the fbi let us examine, i believe all their files, i am not sure, but we couldn't take possession of them and we had to send somebody up there to run through them and dictate on them, and undoubtedly they helped us some in the trial. they helped us in this way. if you had a witness on the stand--i was cross-examining and i would say, well now, you talked to the fbi and he would say yes, sir, and they really picked up when they knew they had talked to the fbi and then i would say didn't you tell them this and they would usually admit it. mr. rankin. do you know whether the files of the--of either of these agencies or both of them were made available to the police in connection with the two cases? mr. wade. it is a one-way deal usually with the fbi, you know. they don't usually tell you anything about their files but i say they did show us their files on this, and whether they showed them to the police i have no idea. i will say they turned their files to the u.s. attorney and let me send somebody up there to look at it, , pages of it. but that was about a week before the trial, and during the picking of the jury when we were still going through them. mr. rankin. did you learn anything during your investigation of the ruby case about the billfold and the ignition case in the car? mr. wade. of ruby's car? mr. rankin. yes. mr. wade. no. mr. rankin. that didn't come to your attention? mr. wade. you know they found a lot of stuff in his car and a lot of stuff on his person. i might say this--there are only two pieces of evidence found on him i wanted to introduce during the trial and until this day i never have found either one of them. i don't know where they are. the police say they gave them to us, and i know they didn't. one was the receipt from the western union which we never, can't find the original of that or a copy, which i think you all have a copy of it. the second one was he had in his possession a "lifeline deal on heroism," telling about everybody had to take things into their own hands and be a hero. we later got a copy of that because the night before the killing he gave that to the weird beard up at klif, radio station, and told him that we had to have some heroes, that was the night before the killing. we got a copy of what the article was but one of them, two or three copies were in his possession but i never could find one to introduce. i never did know for sure whether to introduce it because there was a lot of good american patriotism in the thing and, of course, there is a lot of other that is complete hogwash, you know, and you don't know how a jury is going to read part of it and like it and the other part not, but the title of it was "heroism" and he talked to the weird beard, this was in testimony, that somebody had to be a hero. this was the night before the killing. this was in before, this was before the jury, and said he gave him an article, the title of it was "heroism," that he never did read. mr. rankin. have you supplied to the commission all the information that you have or has come to your attention with regard to the assassination of the president? mr. wade. i don't know of anything. as far as i know, i have. i never did get any information on the assassination of the president. i requested them to send it up here to begin with. mr. rankin. and all you have in regard to jack ruby, too. mr. wade. everything i know of. like i said i let them take those pictures of the physical evidence last week, and there are supposed to be some things that i don't know where it is. it is not in my office, i think the police have lost them actually or at least they are up there and i don't think anybody is trying to hide anything but it is just a situation there is so much that it just got lost in the shuffle. mr. rankin. so, far as you know it has all been supplied then? mr. wade. as far as i know it has. i don't know--i know of nothing in my files that you don't have, and if there is you sure are entitled to have it. i am not sure about this letter you mentioned from the lawyer, the affidavit but i am pretty sure you all have that but i know i got that during the trial and stuck it in my desk somewhere and i don't even know where it is but it will be available. mr. rankin. in any of these press conferences that you have described did you ever say anything about the type of rifle that was thought to be involved in the killing of the president? mr. wade. i think that was one of the inaccuracies that sunday night on the thing. mr. rankin. what did you say about it? mr. wade. i think i said i thought it was a mauser or i thought--was one of those things i didn't know what it was. it was an italian gun, i think and i really thought i was giving them italian but mauser is a german gun, isn't it? but i think you have that--it was a situation, i don't contend i was right on that because it was a situation somebody asked me that and that is what i thought i was telling them and i never--all my information came from the police and actually somebody said originally it was a mauser but it turned out it was not. mr. rankin. you learned it was not. mr. wade. oh, yes; there was no question, i am not contending whatever i said was so on that because i got it all secondhand from someone else. mr. rankin. did you learn that the mauser-type rifle was similar in the type of action to the gun that was involved. did that ever come to your attention? mr. wade. i think someone told me that but i am not an expert on guns. i don't believe i ever saw this gun except from a distance. i think that saturday night--friday night, the d when they were taking it to washington, i saw somebody take it through homicide and give it to the fbi and from a distance, i never did examine it. mr. rankin. in your testimony you were not entirely sure as to whether chief curry had the gun during the press conference? mr. wade. no; i am not. i remember seeing some officer wave that gun around. i was tying it into chief curry but it could have been the day before, because that gun actually should have still been in washington on the d. mr. rankin. yes. mr. wade. i am deducting, i think probably that i saw someone else with the gun, rather than chief curry. mr. rankin. did you in any press conference describe anything about paraffin tests? mr. wade. i told them they gave him paraffin tests. i believe that--i am not positive what i told them, but what i was told, they found paraffin on one hand--powder showed positive on one hand. i don't know which one, but i remember the police told me the paraffin test was positive on one hand. i don't know which hand. mr. rankin. did you indicate what that meant in terms of the effect on crime or its investigation? mr. wade. well, of course, it meant that a man had fired a gun if they find powder on his hands. i assume i have told them that. i think that was sunday night when we were laying out the evidence, so far as i know. i don't think that was prior to his being killed. it was, it shouldn't have been done, but i think that was friday night. mr. rankin. that is all i have, mr. chief justice. mr. dulles has a few questions. the chairman. mr. dulles, do you have some questions you would like to ask mr. wade? mr. dulles. mr. chief justice, mr. ford, believing i was the only one going to be here during the interrogation--during the entire session this morning--gave me a few questions and asked me to tell you he was very sorry he could not be here today, but he will be here tomorrow. the chairman. yes. mr. dulles. a great many of these questions have already been covered. i will just run over them briefly. you have testified as to a telephone call that the attorney general received from washington, what he told you about that. did you have anything further to add to that? mr. wade. no, sir; i believe we have covered that all right. i was trying to think. in the course of this thing, during all this investigation, i have talked to cliff carter in the white house, or at least he used to be, but i don't think we talked then on it. i think it was later, the next day, and then or days later, as i recall, but i believe right after they got back to washington, i got a call from cliff carter wondering whether they had the person, or something, but cliff was one of president johnson's aides. mr. dulles. yes. mr. wade. and i have talked with him later, i think, on, i don't know, i don't think it concerned any of these problems, but i am just talking out loud with you, but we have covered that fully and, i believe, the attorney general told you that he had talked to somebody in the white house about it and called me, i think that is where he told me where he had---- mr. dulles. there were no other messages other than these messages that you mentioned with cliff carter, is that right? mr. wade. yes; i talked to him, but i don't think it concerned this problem. i think it was on a--as a matter of fact, i think it was after ruby had shot oswald when i talked to him, but it is one of those things i can't remember. i hope you don't think i am trying not to tell you, i don't mind telling you anything, but talking to you that i got a call every minutes, and so i don't know, mostly the press calling, you know. mr. dulles. was the conduct of the investigation of the assassination hindered by any possible overlapping of jurisdiction between federal, state, and local authorities? you have dealt with that in a general way. do you have anything more to say on that point? mr. wade. well, i think the investigation of the assassination was carried on in a rather cooperative manner between all the agencies concerned. i think this cooperation was more than generally you would have. it was born out of a feeling that all the agencies were to some extent on the spot, i think, your fbi, your secret service. i think that bred cooperation rather than antagonism. i don't know of any antagonism. i think the biggest fault with the investigation was your press and television. i don't think there is any question that you people up here deal with it. but you take a chief of police, a little chief of police, or a little district attorney down there who is not used to having all, everybody, calling you all hours of the night and asking you questions, and then if you sneeze, write a front page story about what you said, with no way to deny it, you know, and i think the press was the biggest thing that caused--i don't think they ever ought to have been in the police department to begin with. i would have liked to have kept them out of the courtroom. the judge announced that he was going to have them in the courtroom, but i was instrumental in keeping them out. mr. dulles. when we were in dallas, it was suggested to us that the press, radio, and news media kind of took possession of city hall there, and it was a question of throwing them out by force of arms or leaving them there. do you have any comment on that? mr. wade. i don't know how they got in. i don't see how they could run those big cables right through the chief of police's office there without somebody giving them permission. however, i have no way of knowing how they got in. mr. dulles. it was suggested to us that the chief of police was out at the airport and did not get back, and found them in there when he got back at o'clock. mr. wade. how they got in i have no idea, but the whole mechanics of the thing--for instance, in the homicide office, the whole office--you probably have seen it--i don't imagine it is as big as this room. it is cut up into little offices. mr. dulles. i was in there; yes. mr. wade. if you know, when i went into the office, went into that office there friday night, you had to push people back to open the door to get out. you had police having to move the crowd, and they were just stacked down that corridor, and it was a situation that should not have developed. of course, you have a situation where the press yell that the american people have a right to know their president had been assassinated. i don't say there are not two sides to the situation, but i think when they get to interfering with the processes of law there is bound to be a middle ground or some way to work it out. i can't solve it. mr. dulles. so far as you know, have all documents of any evidence, of any kind whatsoever, collected by state and local authorities in texas been turned over to the federal authorities and the president's commission? mr. wade. so far as i know they have. we have either sent it to the commission or to mr. waggoner carr, and i assume whatever he gets he sends to you all. i don't know of any documents; i don't know whether--you don't have a transcript of the trial, but that will be testimony. the chairman. how long was the transcript, mr. wade? mr. wade. i don't know how many pages. i don't think--we don't have our copy of it. we ordered a copy, and so--he filed a pauper's oath, so i don't have any idea how long it will be. it was about weeks of testimony, an argument, and also weeks of picking the jury. they took all that down, all questioning of prospective jurors, so all that will be in the transcript. the chairman. will that all be in the record on appeal? mr. wade. yes, sir. the chairman. have they made any extra copies, do you know? mr. wade. i know they are making some extra copies that have been bought by individuals, i believe life magazine, some of those magazines have ordered a copy. the chairman. i see; yes. mr. wade. we are having to pay for ours. we are having to pay for ours, and, of course, we will handle that, we will use that when briefing our case on appeal. the chairman. do you know what it will cost? you don't know that yet? mr. wade. i think--we think--our copy will be $ , . i mean i have got that figure in my mind, because the commissioners' court kicked about us having to pay court reporters who are working for the county, but i think the court reporters wrote the law, but i have got in mind $ , , but that is a copy. the original usually is twice that much, but of course, a copy is all you would want. but you can write mr. jimmy muleady. he is the official court reporter of that court. mr. dulles. you have testified with regard to the hudkins and goulden rumors that the fbi or cia or some other federal agency might have employed oswald. one or the other of those correspondents indicated that he got his information from some high official that he refused to identify--he or they--refused to identify. do you know anything about that? mr. wade. no; hudkins, as i recall, wrote in his article--i don't know who the high official is, but i imagine they are basing it on me or the police or someone--hudkins put in his article, you know he wrote all this stuff, he is a wild writer, and he said, "henry wade said he doubted whether it would be public information" or something. well, he came running into me one day there and said, "now, i have got all kinds of evidence that he is working for the fbi." and i said, "well, fine, i have none myself," and he said, "what would you think about it?" i said, "well, you are getting onto a situation that i don't know whether it ought to be public information or not." i mean, i asked, suppose he did, i don't know whether it would be something that ought to be written or not, well, more or less trying to get him not to write the article, and i said, "assuming it is so, i don't see you are doing any good writing it." so he quoted from that. that is all the conversation i had with hudkins, and you can get that--i haven't seen the goulden article, and didn't talk with him. i haven't seen joe goulden--i assume it is joe goulden. he left dallas and went with a philadelphia paper. so if it is the situation, if i have seen it i don't remember anything about it, if he wrote a story. but the high official, all i can tell you anything on that, i have absolutely no evidence myself or any personal knowledge that he worked for the fbi or any federal agency, and the only thing i have heard are rumors on the subject, and none of them that has got anything to base it on that i know of. does that cover that? mr. dulles. that covers that. you referred to the statement attributed to you made prior to oswald's killing that the case against him was closed. i understand you say that was not correct, you did not make that statement. mr. wade. that is right. to the best of my knowledge, i never said that. i mean that is what burned me up more than anything, more than any other statement on television when i saw it. i had not been on television. they have written this in the dallas papers and some woman wrote in and said she saw me say it on television. but i would like to see a picture of it because the case never had actually been opened as far as--i mean, we weren't investigating the case. i think that night i told them, of course he is dead, there is no way of trying him. but the purpose, one other purpose in that interview sunday night was to point out that i am sure the agencies will go on investigating it for the benefit of posterity, and i actually, if not in that interview, the following day, said i agreed with some congressmen who said they thought they ought to have a federal investigation on a national level of this thing. mr. dulles. do you know whether any other texas officials made any such statement? mr. wade. i don't know whether anybody did. they quoted the chief of police. they quoted fritz on it, and then they started quoting me on it, which is all saying that. but so far, to the best of my knowledge, i never told anybody the case was closed, and i really think that fritz must have said something about it, and then people think the captain of detectives and the district attorney and the chief are all about the same, and it finally drifted over to me because i left the police station and never had a word to say until that night when i was on television. mr. dulles. do you know whether there were any official transcripts made of the various interrogations of oswald from the time he was captured to the time of his killing? mr. wade. if there are any, i have never seen them. i have asked for them, but you are dealing with a man who not only doesn't make transcripts, but doesn't even make notes. captain fritz is the one who interrogated him most of the time, and if you--if there is any written evidence of what he said it must be from the fbi or the secret service or someone who interviewed him. i assume they make a record of what he said to them. mr. dulles. if any transcript was made we would have had it, would we not? so far as you know? mr. wade. the only thing i know i never have seen one, and i don't have one of an interview, and i don't know of any--you should have it, but you are dealing with fritz there who interviewed ruby, and melvin belli went right into the conversation with ruby, and belli at o'clock that afternoon made everything admissible, and we couldn't get a thing, couldn't put fritz on the stand because he couldn't remember anything that was helpful. i mean, he could remember ruby rambling around the situation, but i don't know of any transcript like that that i have that you don't have. mr. dulles. in your talks, going back to your talks, with mr. carter at the white house---- mr. wade. carter; yes. mr. dulles. carter--did any questions come up in these conversations about not raising the issue that he was a communist or that there might be a conspiracy or something of that kind? mr. wade. no, sir; that conversation, i'm rather sure sometime friday afternoon, and he called me and said, "are they making any progress on the case?" you see, cliff carter and i are close personal friends. i have known him, and they were all upset, and i said, "i don't know. i have heard they have got some pretty good evidence." i think that is the only conversation i had with him. somebody told me, mr. carr, i believe, or barefoot sanders, that they had had some conversations with some washington officials, and i have got an impression it was the state department, but it might have been--that they--concerning the international conspiracy angle. i didn't discuss it because it was silly, i mean the whole thing was a silly deal. i mean, if you would prove he was a communist, suppose he gave a statement he was a communist, i wouldn't have put that in a murder charge because i had to prove it. mr. dulles. that is all i have, mr. chief justice. the chairman. i think that is all, mr. wade. thank you very much for your cooperation. mr. wade. i appreciate what you all are doing and your problems you have got up here. i know if i were in your place i would hate to listen to somebody like me talk hours. the chairman. all right. we will recess until o'clock. (whereupon, at : p.m., the president's commission recessed.) afternoon session testimony of patrick t. dean the president's commission reconvened at p.m. (chairman warren presiding and mr. dulles present.) the chairman. all right, gentlemen. do you have a statement? mr. rankin. sergeant dean asked if he couldn't appear before the commission and testify. we took his deposition in dallas, and he asked, when he signed his deposition, whether he couldn't appear personally, so we are permitting him to do this. the chairman. we are very happy to have you, sergeant. will you raise your right hand and be sworn, please? you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before the commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. dean. i do. the chairman. be seated, please. mr. rankin, you may examine the witness. mr. rankin. sergeant, will you give us your name, your address, please? mr. dean. patrick t. dean. i live at nicholson drive in dallas. mr. rankin. are you connected with the police department in dallas? mr. dean. yes, sir. mr. rankin. what is your position? mr. dean. i am a sergeant on patrol. mr. rankin. how long have you been an official in the police department? mr. dean. eleven and a half years. mr. rankin. will you tell us briefly any training or experience you have had? mr. dean. well, i worked as a patrolman for years. then i was promoted to sergeant and remained in the patrol division. i have since been in the patrol division the rest of the time. mr. rankin. you have given us your deposition, have you not, sergeant? mr. dean. yes, sir. mr. rankin. and is that correct and true as far as anything you know? mr. dean. yes, sir. mr. rankin. is there any part of it that you want to change or correct or modify? mr. dean. no, sir; i feel the main reason i wanted to appear before the commission was about the or minutes that was off the record that i feel i would like the commission to have on the record, and this is between mr. griffin and i. he was the original one who started my deposition. mr. rankin. well, do you want to tell that at this time? first, is there anything about what you said on the record that was not correct? mr. dean. no, sir. mr. rankin. and the truth? mr. dean. no, sir. well, mr. griffin had questioned me about hours, or maybe a little longer. there was no problems at all, no difficulties. and after that length of time, a little over hours, mr. griffin desired to get off the record, and he advised the court reporter that he would be off the record and he could go smoke a cigarette or get a coke, and he would let him know when he wanted him to get back on the record. well, after the court reporter left, mr. griffin started talking to me in a manner of gaining my confidence in that he would help me and that he felt i would probably need some help in the future. my not knowing what he was building up to, i asked mr. griffin to go ahead and ask me what he was going to ask me. he continued to advise me that he wanted me to listen to what he had to say before he asked me whatever question he was going to ask me. i finally told him that whatever he wanted to ask me he could just ask me, and if i knew i would tell him the truth or if i didn't know, i would tell him i didn't know. mr. griffin took my reports, one dated february , the subject of it was an interview with jack ruby, and one dated november , which was my assignment in the basement. he said there were things in these statements which were not true and, in fact, he said both these statements, he said there were particular things in there that were not true, and i asked him what portions did he consider not true, and then very dogmatically he said that, "jack ruby didn't tell you that he entered the basement via the main street ramp." and, of course, i was shocked at this. this is what i testified to, in fact, i was cross-examined on this, and he, mr. griffin, further said, "jack ruby did not tell you that he had thought or planned to kill oswald two nights prior." and he said, "your testimony was false, and these reports to your chief of police are false." so this, of course, all this was off the record. i told mr. griffin then this shocked me, and i told him it shocked me; that i couldn't imagine what he was getting at or why he would accuse me of this, and i asked him, and mr. griffin replied he didn't or he wasn't at liberty to discuss that particular part of it with me, and that he wasn't trying to cross-examine me here, but that under cross-examination he could prove that my testimony was false, and that is when i told mr. griffin that these are the facts and i can't change them. this is what i know about it. i quoted ruby just about verbatim, and since he didn't believe me, and i was saying they were true, we might as well terminate the interview. mr. griffin then got back on the record, or before he did get back on the record, he said, "well now, sergeant dean, i respect you as a witness, i respect you in your profession, but i have offered my help and assistance, and i again will offer you my assistance, and that i don't feel you will be subjecting yourself to loss of your job," or some words to that effect, "if you will go ahead and tell me the truth about it." i again told mr. griffin that these were the facts and i couldn't change them, so with that we got back on the record. mr. rankin. did you ask mr. griffin to ever put this part that was off the record on the record? mr. dean. no, sir; i didn't. mr. rankin. why didn't you at that time? mr. dean. well, now the discussion was, i said, "mr. griffin, i have waived my rights for an attorney, of which i don't feel like i need one." i still don't feel like i need one. the chairman. and you do not need one either sergeant. mr. dean. true. the chairman. you will get along all right. mr. dean. thank you. i said, "i have come over here with the idea of giving you all the information that i have." in fact, i had some additional information that i had gotten the night before, and it was a call that i had received from some man in victoria, canada, who said he had a reel of movie film that he had taken of the assassination. i got this man's name, where he called from, had the police department in victoria check to crisscross the number, and i gave him the name--well, all the information as to where the call had originated from, his name, also this man's attorney, he had given me his name, and i told him that the reason the man had called, had called especially for me at the police department, was that he had a reel of movie film that he had taken the day of the assassination and that these--or the camera was on the president at the time of the assassination, and he described to me the position as to where he was, which was across and in trajectory of the line of fire, and that he felt that in addition to the assassination that he had gotten the school book depository. i told mr. griffin at the time that i had told this man--i can't remember his name, the fbi has gotten it, and at the time i gave it to mr. griffin, i told this man on the telephone from victoria that night that he should send these things, this film, that he said wasn't developed, to the warren commission. he said, that is when he told me that he had contacted his attorney in victoria and that his attorney's name was batter, and he spelled it for me, b-a-t-t-e-r, and his attorney had advised him not to send this information to the warren commission but to contact someone in dallas and send it to them. this man told me that he had read something about my testimony and that he asked me would it be all right for him to send it to me, and i told him, "yes," and i said i was supposed to go back to the warren commission and he could send it to me, and i would make it available for them. this was just additional information that i told mr. griffin that i was--this is an example--i was there to help them in any way i could. mr. rankin. now, the differences in your testimony that mr. griffin was discussing with you off the record, you have gone into that in detail on the record, haven't you, in your deposition? mr. dean. yes; i believe i have, about how ruby entered the basement or how he told me how he entered the basement. also that he had thought two nights prior when he saw lee oswald on a showup stand with a sarcastic sneer on his face is when he decided if he got the chance he would kill him. this was the thing that i testified in court about. i was cross-examined in court. mr. rankin. and you have explained all that in your deposition, haven't you? mr. dean. i believe so; i am not certain. mr. rankin. and did he ask you about why you didn't have your--this information about his planning to shoot oswald the night before, or on the friday---- mr. dean. now, are you asking did mr. griffin ask me why i didn't---- mr. rankin. why you didn't put it in your february--in your statement before the february one? mr. dean. yes, sir; i believe he did, and i explained to him this wasn't the subject--the subject of that november report was my assignment. i didn't put any of the conversation as to what mr. sorrels and i talked to mr. ruby about. i did put at the closing paragraph, i think, and i have a copy of it here, that my main concern was how he got into the basement and how long he had been there because i was in charge of the security of the basement. mr. rankin. so you didn't put it in your prior reports? mr. dean. no, sir; this was later on. chief curry--i think probably it was february --and i think i probably wrote it that day, called me to his office and asked me had i heard all the interview of ruby and sorrels, and i told him that i did, and he asked me could i remember it pretty well, and i said, "yes, i believe i can remember most all of it," and that is when chief curry told me that, he said, "well, you are going to have to testify to it because mr. sorrels can't because he says he didn't warn mr. ruby when he was questioning him. well, this was fine with me. i wrote the report. this was february . mr. rankin. did you tell mr. griffin at that time that you thought it was unimportant or had some other reason for not including it? mr. dean. i believe that i told him that the investigation, the focal point, was as to how he got into the basement. there was an officer, and i knew who the officer was, i assigned him there myself, and i felt this was more of a part of the investigation in which it was investigated--officer r. e. vaughan was investigated as to whether or not he let ruby into the basement or saw him in the basement, and, of course, he was cleared of this. i know of no--the only information i passed on about that was when jack ruby told me how he entered. i told my superiors and then they carried it on from there as far as the investigation. mr. rankin. and about his planning to shoot him prior to the day that---- mr. dean. now, this wasn't--the only time that i put that in the report was february . mr. rankin. yes; did you explain to mr. griffin in your prior testimony why you didn't put it in? mr. dean. i believe that i did; i am not sure. mr. rankin. do you want to add anything to that, just anything that you wanted, to the commission? the chairman. do you recall whether you were asked that specific question or not, sergeant? may i ask, mr. rankin, was he asked that question, and did he answer it? mr. rankin. i have to look at the record to be sure. mr. chief justice, in answer to your question, he was asked about what was the first time that he had given this information and if this was the date. he was not asked for any explanation as to why he didn't give it at any earlier time. the chairman. then we can't blame him if he didn't answer why. mr. rankin. no; i just wanted to find out if he wanted to add anything at this time that would complete the record. the chairman. yes; all right. mr. dean. well, my main concern has been in some way this got out to the papers. the only thing i told the papers was that i can't give any statement. i said i have no comment, and i feel that the accusation started with my denial because i haven't had an opportunity to deny it. the story came out in the papers and it has been on the radio several times, and, in fact, several times since the original, some weeks or so after the paper learned of it of the so-called rift, as they put it. they had the one side of it that he accused me of lying. he didn't use the word "lie," he just said, "these are false statements, and when you testified in court you testified falsely." he didn't use the word "lying," and a lot of papers have since then used the word "lying." i feel like the accusation is a lot stronger than my denial because i haven't denied it. i haven't made any statement at all to press or radio or any news media. i just told them it will have to come from the warren commission or some other source. mr. rankin. what i was asking, sergeant, was whether there is anything that you would like to tell the commission or add to your testimony about why it wasn't in the earlier statement prior to february that you haven't already told us. mr. dean. well, i don't think i would like--if i could, i would like to know why mr. griffin had accused me of perjury. of course, this is something for you people to know, but i just--he wouldn't discuss it with me. the chairman. well, sergeant, i want to say to you that, of course, without knowing what your conversation was with mr. griffin, i have never talked to mr. griffin about this. i didn't know that you had this altercation with him, but i want to say this: that so far as the jurisdiction of this commission is concerned and its procedures, no member of our staff has a right to tell any witness that he is lying or that he is testifying falsely. that is not his business. it is the business of this commission to appraise the testimony of all the witnesses, and, at the time you are talking about, and up to the present time, this commission has never appraised your testimony or fully appraised the testimony of any other witness, and furthermore, i want to say to you that no member of our staff has any power to help or injure any witness. so, so far as that conversation is concerned, there is nothing that will be binding upon this commission. mr. dean. yes, sir. the chairman. but, as i say, i don't know what your conversation was with griffin, but i am just telling you as to what the limitations of the members of our staff are. mr. dean. yes, sir; thank you. that is about all i had. mr. rankin. that is all i have, mr. chief justice. the chairman. well, thank you, sergeant, for coming and feeling as you do, i am glad you had the frankness to come and talk to the commission, and offer to testify concerning it. mr. dean. thank you. i appreciate the opportunity. the chairman. all right, sergeant. mr. dean. thank you. it is nice to have met you. mr. rankin. waggoner, do you want to take the stand for a minute about that conversation? the chairman. you are going to ask the general about it? have you been sworn? testimony of waggoner carr do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before the commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. carr. i do. the chairman. be seated, please. proceed, mr. rankin. mr. rankin. mr. carr, will you state your name and position for the record? mr. carr. i am waggoner carr, attorney general of the state of texas. mr. rankin. and you are a practicing lawyer, are you? mr. carr. yes, sir; before i was elected, i was practicing law in lubbock, tex. now, of course, being attorney general, this has taken me out of the private practice. prior to that i graduated from law school at the university of texas, had my pre-law with a bba degree from texas tech. i have been an assistant district attorney for the nd judicial district in texas; county attorney of lubbock county for years; served in the texas house of representatives for years, the last of those years being as speaker of the house, and was elected attorney general in . mr. rankin. you are the same waggoner carr who has participated from time to time in observing these hearings and cooperating with the commission regarding its work? mr. carr. yes. mr. rankin. insofar as the state of texas is concerned? mr. carr. yes. mr. rankin. were you here when henry wade was testifying with regard to a conversation between himself and yourself, this morning? mr. carr. yes, sir. mr. rankin. would you relate to us that conversation as you recall it, both what you said and what he said? mr. carr. as i recall, it was around or o'clock at night on november , , when i received a long-distance telephone call from washington from someone in the white house. i can't for the life of me remember who it was. a rumor had been heard here that there was going to be an allegation in the indictment against oswald connecting the assassination with an international conspiracy, and the inquiry was made whether i had any knowledge of it, and i told him i had no knowledge of it. as a matter of fact, i hadn't been in dallas since the assassination and was not there at the time of the assassination. so the request was made of me to contact mr. wade to find out if that allegation was in the indictment. i received the definite impression that the concern of the caller was that because of the emotion or the high tension that existed at that time that someone might thoughtlessly place in the indictment such an allegation without having the proof of such a conspiracy. so i did call mr. wade from my home, when i received the call, and he told me very much what he repeated to you today, as i recall, that he had no knowledge of anyone desiring to have that or planning to have that in the indictment; that it would be surplusage, it was not necessary to allege it, and that it would not be in there, but that he would doublecheck it to be sure. and then i called back, and--as i recall i did--and informed the white house participant in the conversation of what mr. wade had said, and that was all of it. mr. rankin. was there anything said to you at any time by anybody from washington that if there was any evidence that was credible to support such an international conspiracy it should not be included in the indictment or complaint or any action? mr. carr. oh, no; absolutely not. there was no direct talk or indirect talk or insinuation that the facts, whatever they might be, should be suppressed. it was simply that in the tension someone might put something in an indictment for an advantage here or disadvantage there, that could not be proved, which would have very serious reaction, which the local person might not anticipate since he might not have the entire picture of what the reaction might be. mr. rankin. thank you. that is all i have, mr. chief justice. the chairman. mr. attorney general, i don't know whether you will be testifying on any other subject before the commission or not, but in the event that you do not, and both of us are not here in the commission again at the same time, i want to say to you for the record that from the very beginning of our investigation your cooperation has been complete, it has been enthusiastic, and it has been most helpful to the commission. the commission and i all appreciate it very much indeed. mr. carr. well, thank you, sir. i will say this, that it has been a very pleasant experience for us, and i think set a good example of how a state government and a federal government can cooperate together where we have common objectives such as this, where we are trying to determine the facts and nothing else. mr. dulles. may i add my voice to that, mr. chief justice? the chairman. yes; indeed, you may. mr. dulles. i know that has been true as far as i am personally concerned, and during our trip to dallas, mr. carr was of great help to us. could i ask just one question? the chairman. yes, indeed. mr. dulles. was there any indication in the call from the white house as to whether this was a leftist, rightist, or any other type of conspiracy or, as far as you recall, was just the word "conspiracy" used? mr. carr. as far as i recall, it was an international conspiracy. this was the idea, but i don't know whether the word "communist" was used or not, mr. dulles. it could have been, or maybe i just assumed that if there was a conspiracy it would only be a communist conspiracy. i don't know which it was, but it was a perfectly natural call. the circumstances that existed at the time, knowing them as i did, and the tension and the high emotion that was running rampant there, it was not inconceivable that something like that could have been done, you understand, without any thought of harming anyone or any thought of having to prove it, as long as you didn't know that under our texas law you have to prove every allegation made in an indictment. if you didn't know that, it might seem logical that someone might put something like that into an indictment, factual or not. mr. dulles. thank you very much. mr. carr. but there was no such thing going on. the chairman. well, general, i think that will be all then. thank you very much. mr. carr. yes, sir. the chairman. the commission is adjourned. (whereupon, at : p.m., the president's commission recessed.) _tuesday, june , _ testimony of richard edward snyder, john a. mcvickar, and abram chayes the president's commission met at a.m., on june , , at maryland avenue ne., washington, d.c. present were chief justice earl warren, chairman; senator john sherman cooper, representative gerald ford, and allen w. dulles, members. also present were william t. coleman, jr., assistant counsel; w. david slawson, assistant counsel; charles murray, observer; and dean robert g. storey, special counsel to the attorney general of texas. testimony of richard edward snyder (members present at this point: chief justice warren, and mr. dulles.) the chairman. gentlemen, the commission will come to order. mr. coleman, would you make a statement as to the purpose of the meeting this morning? mr. coleman. mr. chief justice, the first witness is mr. richard e. snyder, who is presently first secretary in the american embassy in tokyo, japan, and was second secretary and consul, american embassy, moscow, u.s.s.r., in , and remained in that post in moscow through at least the middle of . mr. snyder will be asked to testify concerning lee harvey oswald's actions when he came into the american embassy in moscow on october , , and stated that he desired to renounce his u.s. citizenship, the actions which the embassy took at that time, and the information which it gave to the state department. mr. snyder also handled the interview of oswald when he appeared at the embassy in july of , and had his passport returned to him, and will be asked to testify about the return of the passport. mr. snyder will also be asked to identify for the record the various embassy dispatches and state department instructions which were exchanged concerning oswald in , , and to the middle of . the chairman. mr. snyder, it is customary for us to read a statement of that kind to the witness, so you will be apprised of what we are going to interview you about. will you please rise and raise your right hand and be sworn? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before this commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. snyder. i do, sir. the chairman. you may be seated. mr. coleman will conduct the examination. mr. coleman. mr. snyder, will you state your name for the record. mr. snyder. richard edward snyder. mr. coleman. and what is your present address? mr. snyder. geary drive, south plainfield, n.j. mr. coleman. are you presently employed by the federal government? mr. snyder. yes, sir. mr. coleman. in what capacity? mr. snyder. as a foreign service officer of the department of state. mr. coleman. where are you presently stationed? mr. snyder. in tokyo, american embassy. mr. coleman. directing your attention to the fall of , were you employed by the federal government at that time? mr. snyder. yes, sir. mr. coleman. where were you stationed? mr. snyder. at the embassy in moscow. mr. coleman. what was your title? mr. snyder. second secretary and consul, sir. mr. coleman. i take it that you have had called to your attention a copy of the joint resolution which was adopted by congress with respect to the commission. mr. snyder. yes, sir. mr. coleman. and i also take it that since you have been back in the country that you have had an opportunity to look at the various state department files dealing with oswald. mr. snyder. yes, sir. mr. coleman. calling your attention to the date of october ---- mr. dulles. could i ask one question, mr. coleman, about that? what previous posts had you had before going to moscow? mr. snyder. well, my first post in the foreign service---- mr. dulles. i am interested as an old foreign service officer. mr. snyder. i see. i served for a brief time in hicog in frankfurt, germany and then for about years in munich, in the consulate general, which was my first post in the foreign service. my second post, i spent year in the boondocks of japan, in niigata, on the sea of japan, in a one-man cultural center. mr. dulles. as a foreign service officer? mr. snyder. as a foreign service officer; yes, sir. i was assigned to this duty at a time when usis was still part of the state department, and when i reached my post it had already been separated, so i was on loan to them. and then a year and a half in tokyo. then a summer and an academic year at harvard, in russian area studies. mr. dulles. in what school there? mr. snyder. in littauer. mr. dulles. did you learn russian at that time? mr. snyder. no; i had had russian in college before. mr. dulles. so you speak russian fairly fluently? mr. snyder. fairly fluently; yes, sir. mr. dulles. and then moscow was your next post? mr. snyder. and then moscow for years; yes, sir. mr. dulles. what years? mr. snyder. july of to july of . i arrived there just before the vice president. mr. coleman. directing your attention, sir, to october , , did you have occasion to see lee harvey oswald on that day? mr. snyder. yes, sir. mr. coleman. had you ever seen him before? mr. snyder. no, sir. (at this point, representative ford entered the hearing room.) mr. coleman. had you ever heard about him before? mr. snyder. no. mr. coleman. could you state for the commission just what happened when you saw mr. oswald on october . , indicating the time of day, what he said, and what you did? the chairman. before you answer that question, may i say that this is congressman ford, a member of the commission. this is mr. snyder of the state department now stationed in tokyo, and who was stationed at the embassy in moscow when oswald attempted to defect. representative ford. thank you. mr. snyder. well, as for the time of day, i am afraid i draw a blank. i can make some assumptions as to the time of day, for what they are worth. but since i told oswald--and you will come to this, i think, a little later on--that the embassy was closed theoretically at the time, i presume this was a wednesday afternoon or perhaps a saturday afternoon, but i just don't recall. mr. coleman. for the record, i think it was a saturday, sir. mr. snyder. was it a saturday? so, at any rate--if it had been a morning, i could not have used this particular approach with him. so i presume it was an afternoon. oswald came into the embassy without prior announcement. he didn't call or in any other way communicate with us, to the best of my knowledge. mr. dulles. you had no way of knowing he was in russia? mr. snyder. i had no previous knowledge of his presence; no, sir. at any rate, he came in to me cold, so to speak. i was told that an american wanted to see me, wanted to see the consul. and i am not sure whether i went out and brought him in or whether he was taken into my office by someone else. at any rate, this was my first meeting with oswald. i will be glad to give you such recollections as i have as to his general demeanor and this sort of thing, if you would like. mr. coleman. yes, sir. mr. snyder. and i might inject at this point something which i mentioned to mr. slawson before our session began, and that is that i reviewed the files, our own files, on oswald, enough to refresh my memory as to the basic facts and the chronology of events and this sort of thing, but i have attempted not to go too deeply into details with the thought that what the commission is interested in, presumably, is what i honestly remember at the time and not so much what may have been planted in my mind by reviews since that time. as to his general appearance, i do recall that he was neatly and very presentably dressed. i couldn't say offhand whether he was dressed in a suit and shirt, though i think probably he was. at any rate, he presented a nice physical appearance. i presume that he was well shaven. otherwise, i would not have had this feeling about him--that he, in general, was competent looking. he was extremely sure of himself. he seemed to know what his mission was. he took charge, in a sense, of the conversation right from the beginning. he told me in effect that he was there to give up his american citizenship. i believe he put his passport on my desk, but i am not sure. i may have asked for it. in general, his attitude was quite arrogant. mr. dulles. could i ask one question there? when you say you presume you asked for it, you mean you asked to see it--you didn't ask to take it from him? mr. snyder. no, i asked to see it. if he didn't put it on the desk, then i asked for it early in the game--one way or the other. he told me, among other things, that he had come to the soviet union to live, that he did not intend to go back to the united states, that this was a well thought out idea on his part. he said, again in effect, "don't bother wasting my time asking me questions or trying to talk me out of my position." he said, "i am well aware"--either he said, "i am well aware" or "i have been told exactly the kind of thing you will ask me, and i am not interested, so let's get down to business"--words to that effect. well, he was a very cocksure young man at that time. i am not sure that he sat at all throughout the interview, but certainly in the early part of it he did not. i asked him--i recall asking him to take a seat, and he said, no, he wanted to stand. he may have relented later on. at any rate, i did nevertheless probe about and elicited a bit of information about him which was in my report to the department of state. mr. coleman. sir, was anyone else present at the time you were talking to mr. oswald? mr. snyder. no; i believe mr. mcvickar was in the next room. but there was no one in the room with us at that time. mr. coleman. how long did the interview with mr. oswald last, approximately? mr. snyder. well, i would have to pull it out of the air, really. it would be on the order of magnitude of half an hour. it might have extended to three-quarters of an hour, something of this sort. mr. coleman. other than the passport, did he give you any other piece of paper? mr. snyder. yes, yes; he did. he gave me a written statement saying something along the line of what i have said he mentioned to me orally. that is, that he had come to the soviet union to live, that he desired to renounce his citizenship, that he was going to become a citizen of the soviet union, words to that effect. mr. dulles. we have that written statement, do we not? mr. coleman. i have marked as commission exhibit no. a photostatic copy of a handwritten letter which is signed by lee h. oswald, and ask you whether that is a copy of the letter that oswald gave you on october , when he appeared at the embassy? (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. snyder. yes; i would say it is, sir. mr. coleman. after he gave you the letter and the passport, did he do anything else? mr. snyder. no; after his initial statement of purpose and intent, and after giving me this statement, the interview was then pretty much in my hands. he was, i would say, a reluctant interviewee from there on. he had announced initially his desire not to discuss the matter with me, but simply to get on with the business for which he had come and, therefore, anything else that was to be said was up to me to get said. mr. coleman. did you at that time go through whatever formalities are required for a person to renounce his citizenship? mr. snyder. no; i did not. mr. coleman. what does an american citizen have to do at the embassy to renounce his citizenship? mr. snyder. well, the law requires, in general, that an american citizen, to renounce his citizenship, must appear before--i am not sure whether the law confines it to a consular officer--but at any rate must appear, in the case of the foreign service, appear before a consular officer, and swear to an affidavit in the proper form, something of this order. in practical terms, it means that the consul draws up a statement, the content of which--the exact wording of which is contained in our regulations, and has the person swear to it in his presence. mr. coleman. well, did mr. oswald ask for such an affidavit? mr. snyder. i don't think he asked for such an affidavit in those terms. i am not sure that he understood that completely, what the procedure was. but he did ask to renounce his citizenship. mr. coleman. well, did you provide him with the affidavit? mr. snyder. no, sir; i did not. mr. coleman. why didn't you provide him with the affidavit at that time? mr. snyder. well, as the consul and, of course, the responsible person at the time, it didn't seem to me the sensible thing to do--in the sense that--i can't, i suppose, speak for all consuls, but it is sort of axiomatic, i think, in the consular service that when a man, a citizen comes in and asks to renounce his citizenship, you don't whip out a piece of paper and have him sign it. this is a very serious step, of course, an irrevocable step, really, and if nothing else you attempt to provide enough time for--to make sure that the person knows what he is doing. you explain, for one thing, what the meaning of the act is; and, secondly, again speaking for myself--i cannot speak for the foreign service in this--provide a little breather, if possible make the man leave your office and come back to it at a later time, just to make sure--for what value there is in making sure--that the man's action is not something completely off the top of his head. representative ford. mr. chairman, would it be helpful for the record to have put in the record at this point whatever the law is in this regard, and whatever the department regulations are on this point? the chairman. that may be done; yes. mr. coleman. i would like to say, sir, at o'clock the legal adviser to the state department is coming in, and he is going to put it in at that time. mr. dulles. may i ask a question at this point? mr. coleman. if you want it in now, we can indicate the sections which are applicable. representative ford. i think there ought to be some citation at this point, because the witness is talking specifically about the process of the law and the regulations. the chairman. do you have the law there, mr. snyder--is that the law? mr. snyder. i brought nothing with me, myself. the chairman. i saw a book there that you were looking at, and i thought that would suffice. mr. snyder. shall i read the section of law, sir? this is the immigration and nationality act, section (a)( ). section (a) states, "from and after the effective date of this act, a person who is a national of the united states, whether by birth or naturalization, shall lose his nationality by"--then section under that, subsection, states, "making a formal renunciation of nationality before a diplomatic or consular officer of the united states in a foreign state in such form as may be prescribed by the secretary of state." mr. coleman. sir, the secretary of state has promulgated regulations which are found in code of federal regulations, sections . and . and they are also reproduced in foreign affairs manual, section . . basically, as i understand it, those regulations provide the form in which the citizen is to make the renunciation, and it is to be done in four copies, and then one copy is to be given to the person who makes the renunciation. is that your understanding? mr. snyder. this is my understanding; yes, sir. representative ford. are those forms available? are they printed up, or do you have to draft them? what is the circumstance? mr. snyder. they are not printed forms, to my knowledge, mr. ford--at least i have never seen a printed form. the only time that i have used them in my foreign service experience i have had them typed up on the spot. the chairman. you may continue, mr. coleman. mr. dulles. we ought to have in the record, mr. chief justice, a copy of that form--either here or later. the chairman. as i understood, someone from the state department is coming here to testify on the procedures, and the witness did not bring anything with him, he says. mr. snyder. that is right, sir. mr. coleman. mr. snyder, when you were talking to mr. oswald on october , , did he say anything with respect to applying for soviet citizenship? mr. snyder. yes; this was contained in his written statement, for one thing, and i believe that he also stated this to me orally. mr. coleman. did he say anything with respect to having any information since he had been in the marine corps that he would be willing to make available to the soviet union? mr. snyder. yes; he did. he stated again, in effect, that he would make available to the soviet authorities or to the soviet union what he had learned concerning his speciality--he was an electronics specialist of some sort, a radar technician--at any rate, he would make available to the soviet union such knowledge as he had acquired while in the marine corps concerning his specialty. he volunteered this statement. it was rather peculiar. mr. coleman. you say that the interview lasted about a half an hour. i take it he then left. did he say he was going to return? mr. snyder. no; i don't believe he did. he gave no particular indication of when he would return, if he would return, or this sort of thing. mr. coleman. do you recall just what he said when he left your office? mr. snyder. no, sir. mr. coleman. i show you a document---- mr. dulles. could i ask one question there? did he take his passport or did he leave it? mr. snyder. no; i kept it. mr. dulles. you kept the passport? mr. snyder. yes, sir. mr. coleman. i show you a document which has been marked commission exhibit no. , and it is a foreign service dispatch dated november , . this is from embassy, moscow, to the department of state, washington. it is signed by edward l. freers, but on the first page there is an indication it was actually drafted by you. do you recall drafting the original of that document? mr. snyder. yes, sir. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. coleman. that statement was drafted within a day or two after you had the interview with mr. oswald. i take it it reflects what happened at that time. mr. snyder. yes, sir. mr. dulles. was there any cabled report of this incident? mr. snyder. yes; i cabled a report on the st, mr. dulles. commission exhibit no. is a somewhat fuller report, days later. mr. coleman. to answer mr. dulles' question, i show you a document which has been marked commission exhibit no. , which purports to be a copy of a cable from moscow to the secretary of state, and ask you whether that is the cable which was sent off on october , . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. snyder. yes, sir. mr. coleman. i also had marked, and i would like to show you, commission exhibit no. , which is a copy of a telegram from american embassy, tokyo, to secretary of state, dated november , . this telegram purports to be an interview which the ambassador in tokyo had with you immediately after the assassination in which you attempted to recall what happened on october , , when mr. oswald appeared at the embassy. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. coleman. i ask you if you can identify that telegram? mr. snyder. might i just inject something? i notice in my reports, on my first interview with oswald, that i mention the petrulli case. you might at this time or later on wish to refer to the petrulli case. mr. dulles. mr. chairman, this cable is very short and quite significant. i wonder if it could not be read into the record at this point, just for the continuity of the record. mr. snyder. there is a slight problem of classification on these, mr. dulles. i don't know how public the records are. mr. dulles. maybe you could paraphrase it, then. you mean it is a question of codes? mr. snyder. it is a question of code security; yes, sir. the chairman. if this is in the record, it will be published. mr. coleman. off the record. (discussion off the record.) the chairman. back on the record. mr. coleman. would you be kind enough to read commission exhibit no. into the record? mr. snyder. in paraphrase? the chairman. paraphrase, yes; in your own way. representative ford. of course keeping the intent of what was said precisely as it was sent. mr. snyder. yes, sir. a person appeared at the embassy today, october , identified himself as lee harvey oswald, and stated that he had come to renounce his american citizenship. he was the bearer of u.s. passport no. , date of issuance september , , which showed him to be unmarried and gave his age as , or which showed him to be --it gives his date of birth. mr. oswald stated that he had applied for soviet citizenship in moscow. he stated that he had entered the soviet union from helsinki, finland, on october . he said that he had contemplated this action for the previous years. the main reason given was that "i am a marxist." he has a mother living at collinwood street, fort worth, tex., which was also his last address. his attitude was arrogant and aggressive. he stated that he had recently been discharged from the marine corps. he also volunteered the information that he had offered to the soviet authorities any information which he had acquired as an enlisted radar operator in the marines. in view of the petrulli case, the embassy proposes to delay completing the renunciation procedure until the action of the soviet authorities on his request for soviet citizenship is known or the department advises. a dispatch follows. the press has been informed. the chairman. would the commissioners like to see the document itself? mr. coleman. mr. snyder, could you tell the commission what the petrulli case was? mr. snyder. yes. the petrulli case i remember quite well. mr. petrulli was an american citizen who came into the embassy some weeks before, i believe, asking to renounce his american citizenship. mr. petrulli hung around moscow for quite some time, again a number of weeks, and perhaps as long as weeks or a month. he had entered the soviet union as a tourist, i believe. it is not clear what intent he had when he arrived. but, at any rate, he did apply for soviet citizenship while in moscow, and he did come into the embassy, and was interviewed by me to renounce his american citizenship. i did not, in accordance with the thinking which i outlined to you earlier--i did not accept his renunciation the first time he came in, but did accept it when he subsequently appeared, and insisted that is what he wanted to do. the case had a--i might skip over the minor details, but it had a rather rapid denouncement, when the soviet authorities, after having looked him over for a number of weeks, decided they did not want him as a citizen or resident of the soviet union. and when we subsequently learned, that is i learned, from my reporting to the department, and correspondence with them, that mr. petrulli had been discharged from the armed forces some time earlier on, i believe, a -percent mental disability--the soviet, i think it was the head of the consular section of the soviet foreign ministry, called me into the foreign ministry one day and said words to the effect that an american citizen mr. petrulli, has overstayed his visa in the soviet union, he is living here illegally, and "we request that you take steps to see that he leaves the country immediately." i told the soviet official that to the best of my knowledge mr. petrulli was not then an american citizen, he having executed a renunciation of citizenship before me. the soviet official said in effect, "as far as we are concerned, he came here on an american passport, and we ask that you get him out of here." well, again to end what was a long, involved and terribly time-consuming story at the time, it was determined by the department that mr. petrulli's renunciation was null and void because he was not competent, and therefore he was an american citizen, and we shipped him home. the petrulli case, as i say, was very much in my mind when mr. oswald showed up. mr. coleman. after you sent the telegram, which is commission exhibit no. , to the state department, i take it that the first word that you received from the state department is a telegram which i have marked as commission exhibit no. . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. snyder. yes. mr. coleman. now, by paraphrasing, could you read the second paragraph of that telegram into the record? mr. snyder. "for your information, in the event that mr. oswald insists on completing a renunciation of his united states citizenship, the embassy is precluded by the provisions of section of the revised statutes from withholding the right to do so without regard to the status of his application for citizenship which is pending before the soviet government and without regard to the petrulli case." mr. coleman. at the same time that you were notifying the state department that oswald had appeared, someone in the embassy also sent a telegram to the navy department, didn't he, advising that oswald, a former marine, had appeared at the embassy and stated that he was a radar operator in the marine corps, and that he had offered to furnish the soviets the information he possessed on radar. i have marked as commission exhibit no. this telegram and ask you whether that is the telegram that went forth to the navy department. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. snyder. i don't recall that i saw this telegram at the time. but i would say from the content of it, and the form, that it is clearly a telegram sent by the naval attaché of the embassy to his home office. mr. coleman. we also have had marked as commission exhibit no. the telegram which the navy sent in reply to commission exhibit no. . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. coleman. have you seen that before and can you identify that? mr. snyder. i do not recall having seen this telegram before; no, sir. mr. coleman. now, sir; the next contact that you had with oswald was by a letter dated november , , which has been marked as commission exhibit no. , is that correct? (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. snyder. yes--to the best of my knowledge, this was the next thing that i heard of oswald--the next thing i heard from oswald. mr. coleman. how did the original of commission exhibit no. come into your possession? mr. snyder. i believe it came through the mail. mr. coleman. and after you received commission exhibit no. , what did you do? mr. snyder. i wrote mr. oswald a reply, i believe, the same day. the chairman. exhibit no. was a request to revoke his application to renounce citizenship, was it not? mr. coleman. no, mr. chief justice; commission exhibit no. is a letter from mr. oswald complaining that the embassy had not permitted him to renounce. the chairman. i misread it. yes; that is right. excuse me. mr. coleman. you say you wrote mr. oswald a letter the same day? we have had marked as commission exhibit no. a letter from richard e. snyder, to lee harvey oswald, dated november , . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. coleman. i show it to you and ask you is this a copy of the letter which you wrote to mr. oswald? mr. snyder. yes, sir. representative ford. mr. chairman---- mr. dulles. could we have some indication of what that letter is, for the record. the chairman. referring back to exhibit no. , where i was acting apparently under some misapprehension i read the first three lines and it said "nov. , . i, lee harvey oswald, do hereby request that my present united states citizenship be revoked." well, that is consistent with what was said. representative ford. i think that is a pretty categorical statement. the chairman. yes; it is. representative ford. he subsequently, in exhibit no. , makes a protest about the fact that he was not accorded that right previously. but i don't see how we could come to any other conclusion but the first three lines are a specific request for the right to revoke his american citizenship. the chairman. yes; but i had misread that first sentence, and i had asked if it wasn't a revocation of his original request. i was in error when i said that. you are correct, absolutely, on your interpretation of it. mr. coleman. as a result of receiving commission exhibit no. , you wrote mr. oswald a letter which has been--a copy of which has been marked and identified as commission exhibit no. , is that correct? mr. snyder. yes, sir. mr. coleman. earlier in your testimony, when asked about what a citizen has to do to renounce his citizenship, you referred to section (a) ( ). i would like to call your attention to the fact there is also another provision--section (a) ( )--which provides that an american citizen shall lose his nationality by "taking an oath or making an affirmation or other formal declaration of allegiance to a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof." did you consider whether the oswald letter, marked as commission exhibit no. , was such an affirmation or other formal declaration? mr. snyder. there is a considerable body of law, i believe, interpreting this provision of law as to what constitutes an affirmation or other formal declaration. i believe that i was quite aware at the time that a mere statement did not constitute a formal declaration within the meaning of the law. mr. coleman. did---- mr. dulles. may i ask one question about exhibit no. ? in the second paragraph of this letter, exhibit no. , oswald says, "i appered [sic] in person at the consulate office of the united states embassy, moscow, on oct. st, for the purpose of signing the formal papers to this effect. this legal right i was refused at that time." do you know how he learned about his legal rights? did you tell him his legal rights in your conversation with him? or where did he get the information about his legal rights, if you know about that? mr. snyder. well, to the best of my knowledge, mr. dulles, i did discuss with oswald both the significance of his act and the legal basis of it, and so forth. and i believe that in the letter which i wrote to him---- mr. dulles. which was subsequent to exhibit no. , was it not, in answer to ? mr. snyder. in answer to exhibit no. --in the letter which i wrote, replying to this, i purposely used the word, i think, "again", or words to that effect, and i put that word in there at the time, indicating that he had been told this before, and that i was repeating it to him. mr. coleman. you are talking about commission exhibit no. , the third paragraph, is that correct, where you use the word "again"? mr. snyder. yes; that is correct. in other words, at the time oswald was there, the reason which i gave him for not taking his renunciation at the time was not that he was not legally entitled to have it, but that the office was closed at the time. in matter of fact, i don't think i had a secretary there to type out the form and so forth. but this is really quite beside the point. but the reason which i gave him was not that i had any legal right to refuse him--that is, it wasn't based on a provision of law, as it was based on simply the fact that the embassy was closed at the time. mr. coleman. you will recall in commission exhibit no. , which was the first letter that oswald gave you, that the last paragraph states, "i affirm that my allegiance is to the union of soviet socialist republics," and once again i take it that you didn't think that that was the type of oath or affirmation which is set forth in section (a) ( )? mr. snyder. yes, sir; that is right. mr. slawson. mr. snyder, in reference to the same document, commission exhibit no. , do you think that mr. oswald, when he appeared before you and gave this to you, believed in his mind that this was sufficient to renounce his citizenship? the chairman. how could he tell what was in his mind? mr. snyder. i really don't know. mr. slawson. do you believe that if you had given mr. oswald the opportunity to carry through with the procedures, that he would have renounced his citizenship at that first appearance? mr. snyder. yes; i have every reason to believe he would have. mr. coleman. sir, i also would like to show you a copy of a passport issued by the united states, which has been marked as commission exhibit no. , and ask you whether that is the passport that mr. oswald gave to you when he came into the embassy on october , . mr. dulles. may i ask a preliminary question about exhibit no. ? this is undated. do we know the date of the receipt of this by the embassy? mr. coleman. yes, mr. dulles; the testimony is that when mr. oswald came into the embassy, sir, he handed this document to mr. snyder. mr. dulles. that is the first time he came in, he handed this document to you? mr. snyder. yes, sir. this is undoubtedly his passport; yes, sir. mr. coleman. after you received commission exhibit no. , which is the second letter from oswald, the letter dated november , , you then prepared and sent to the secretary of state in washington an airgram which the commission has had marked as commission exhibit no. . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. coleman. i show you the document and ask you whether you prepared the original thereof and sent it to the state department? mr. snyder. yes, sir. representative ford. may i ask a question here? when oswald first came in, and either placed his passport on the desk or the table, or you asked for it, did you note that he had overstayed his visa by days? mr. snyder. i can't recall that i did or did not, mr. ford. representative ford. is that something that you would normally examine and determine under circumstances like this? mr. snyder. oh, i might if there were some reason to look at it--if it were particularly relevant to something i was thinking at the time or asking about at the time. in terms of soviet practice, it is not really too relevant. that is, if the soviet authorities find it to their interest to keep a person around, then there is no problem. and if they do not, one does not overstay one's visa in the soviet union. representative ford. but if it is, for some soviet reason, a good reason to keep somebody around beyond the time of their visa, wouldn't that be of some interest to us--i mean to the united states officials? mr. snyder. oh, yes; but, of course, that assumption was already strongly made in the oswald case by other circumstances in this case. there was no question in my mind that mr. oswald was there in moscow for the purposes for which he stated he was in moscow, and that this was known to the soviet authorities, for he said he had applied for soviet citizenship. representative ford. is it the usual thing for them to let an individual stay beyond their visa termination date? mr. snyder. well, i would say it is not usual. again, one can never cite a list of specific instances in these things, but i think that when you are working as a consul in moscow for a couple of years, you have a considerable feel for these things, and that i would say it is not usual--people simply do not overstay their visas in the soviet union without the knowledge, by and large, of the soviet authorities. and this is because of the nature of the passport registration system at your hotel, and all of this sort of thing. it simply is not normally done by oversight or by lapse either on the part of the individual or on the part of the soviet state. representative ford. when he presented the passport, or when you were given the passport by him, did you examine it? mr. snyder. i undoubtedly examined it. representative ford. where in the passport would this fact be noted that he had overstayed his visa by days? (at this point, senator cooper entered the hearing room.) mr. snyder. it may either be on the original visa or on the police stamp placed in his passport at the time. this is to the best of my recollection. mr. coleman. congressman ford, as i understand it, one of the stamps in the passport, which would be in russian, indicates the visa that he got in helsinki, and also indicates the length of time he was permitted to stay. representative ford. so it is clearly a soviet document in the passport? mr. coleman. yes. mr. snyder. i could probably find these for you, if you would like. representative ford. when oswald came in, did you notice anything peculiar about his physical appearance--any bruises, any injuries of any kind? mr. snyder. no, no; as i said--you may not have been here, mr. ford, at the time i made my original comments on his appearance. he was very neatly dressed, very well composed, and to all outward appearances a respectable-looking young man. representative ford. i was there then, and i was interested because i think we have testimony to the effect, or we have documentation to the effect, that he had tried to commit suicide prior to his coming to the american embassy for the purpose of renouncing his citizenship. in other words, he had cut his wrist and had been in a soviet hospital or medical facility. and i was wondering whether you had noticed that. mr. snyder. no, sir; i did not. representative ford. you did not. mr. coleman. mr. snyder, on november you sent forward commission exhibit no. , which is the foreign service dispatch. you had also sent forth days earlier a telegram advising them about oswald. and on november you had sent forth commission exhibit no. . now, according to the files that we have, except for commission exhibit no. , which is the telegram asking where the dispatch was, we have no other communication during this period from the department to the embassy giving you advice on what to do in the oswald case. was there any messages that went back to the embassy, other than commission exhibit no. , during that period? mr. snyder. i can't really say, mr. coleman, that i have personal recollection. but i have no reason to believe that there was anything else came in, other than what is now in our files. mr. coleman. well, would you expect to get some answers to those dispatches that you were sending forward to washington? mr. snyder. not really--not really. the thrust of information in something like this is from the field to the department. the department really answered the only thing which i asked them. that is, i told the department what i intended to do concerning his request for renunciation, and the department responded to that. and this was really all i would have expected from them at the time. i would have expected--if the department had had any information concerning oswald in its files--i would have expected them to let me know if they had indication, for instance, that oswald was mentally unbalanced or emotionally unstable or anything else of this sort, anything which might look like a repeat of the petrulli pattern, i would have expected them to let me know this, so i would know how to handle the case. mr. coleman. sir, days before mr. oswald came into the embassy, did you have occasion to write a letter to mr. boster in washington, asking him how you should handle these matters of attempted renunciation of american citizenship? mr. snyder. well---- mr. dulles. is this the first time he came into the embassy? mr. coleman. this is days before he came. mr. dulles. the first time? mr. coleman. yes, sir. mr. snyder. i recall writing. i think probably the letter you have in mind-- mr. coleman. i show you commission exhibit no. which is a letter dated october , , from mr. snyder to mr. boster, and ask you whether that is a letter you sent. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. coleman. is that a copy of the letter that you sent to mr. boster? mr. snyder. yes, sir. mr. coleman. doesn't that letter, at the bottom, indicate that you were attempting to get advice on how to handle an attempted renunciation of american citizenship? at the bottom of the first page. mr. snyder. yes; this is a letter which i wrote to gene boster. this letter, i might add, did not refer to any particular case, but was a letter in which i had put down ideas which had been circulating in my mind for some time, based on my initial handling of cases in moscow. and it was by way of putting down, as i say, some general ideas on the subject, and asking gene what the department felt about this general area of notions. it wasn't directed at any particular case. representative ford. do you feel that the regulations then, as well as now, and the law as well, are archaic in this regard? mr. snyder. oh, no; it is simply that--not the law, and certainly not the regulations--and certainly not the law, can ever take the place of the judgment of the officer on the spot. mr. dulles. was this motivated by the petrulli case? mr. snyder. no; i don't think it was. the petrulli case was a clear-cut case, there was no problem with the petrulli case, legal or otherwise. it was motivated, as best i can recall, by my experience with a few other cases. well, let's say--let's go back a little bit further, in a more general vein. the kind of people, the kind of americans, and i suppose not only americans but frenchmen, englishmen, and otherwise, who occasionally drift into the soviet union and state that they want to roll up their sleeves and go to work for socialism for the rest of their lives, or something of this sort, are usually quite a peculiar kind of person. in the first place, they are rarely marxists in any meaningful sense of the term. that is, they don't really know what it is all about. they probably don't know two words about marxist theories, or marxism, leninism, stalinism, or anything else. even less do they know anything about the country that they have chosen to spend their lives in, theoretically. almost universally they have never been to the country before. they speak no russian. and they are rebounding from something--in some cases, such as the petrulli case, the man is simply incompetent. in other cases, as in the webster case, he appears to have been fleeing from his wife and the general responsibilities of his prior position, and finding that he could not escape from them in the soviet union either. in the case of oswald, a man who, for one reason or another, seemed to have been uncomfortable in his own society, unable to accommodate himself to it, and hoping he will make out better some place else. at any rate, almost universally, the pattern is of a person who is not acting out of any ideological grounds. he simply doesn't--and i think this is essentially true probably of oswald--this was my feeling in speaking with him--that oswald really knew nothing about marxism and leninism, that he professed to be modeling his life after. mr. dulles. isn't it possible, though, from this discussion--maybe this should be asked to your legal adviser--that our procedure under law about renunciation may be in conflict with general international law, because if he comes into the country with an american passport, as an american citizen, i gather under ordinary international law we have to take him back. we are responsible for him. and no renunciation he makes changes that, as the petrulli case shows. now, in the petrulli case you had a situation where he was incompetent, and you could throw the thing out on the ground he didn't know what he was doing. but in these other cases, maybe you can't. mr. snyder. well, in the specific instance and circumstances of the soviet union, you obviously have a major problem, there is a major state problem. mr. dulles. that might arise in other cases. isn't that true in any case--if an american citizen arrives with an american passport, the country where he arrives doesn't have to keep him, does it? isn't it our responsibility to take him back? mr. snyder. well, this is a point---- mr. dulles. that is a question of law. mr. snyder. this is a question of law which i really cannot answer. and where we have an extradition treaty, i think there is no great problem, perhaps, or at least the problem is somewhat different from where we do not have an extradition treaty, as in the case of the soviet union. and i just don't know whether we are in the last analysis required to take back a person who is no longer one of our citizens, and under circumstances where we do not have an extradition treaty with the nation, where that person now resides. representative ford. do we have an extradition treaty with the soviet union? mr. snyder. no, sir. well, we did not at that time, and i don't think we have subsequently. but we did not at that time. representative ford. do the legal advisers to the department know whether we have an extradition treaty now? mr. chayes. we do not have an extradition treaty with the soviet union. the only bilateral treaty we have with the soviet union, the senate has not yet given advice and consent--but the only bilateral agreement is the consular agreement. but so long as i am on the record here, i don't see how the extradition treaty has any bearing at all on the requirement of taking back a former american citizen who may get into trouble in the other country. that would be a matter governed by general principles of international law, and also one's own humanitarian outlook on the particular circumstance, rather than--or there could be treaty provisions perhaps, commerce and navigation, that might bear on it. but in the usual case, i think not. senator cooper. may i ask a question here? it might save time. is there any statutory--any statute bearing on this question of renunciation? the chairman. senator cooper, we just went through that, and it has been put in evidence here, and the statute has been read and it is very simple. all he has to do is go there and renounce before a consul or state officer to satisfy the regulations and requirements of the state department, and he is out. isn't that correct, generally speaking? mr. chayes. yes, sir. senator cooper. is there any other statute bearing upon the effect of that renunciation with respect to any application or petition he might make later to renew his citizenship in the united states? is there any? mr. coleman. i would assume, sir, if he has made a valid renunciation, he is then just like any other non-american that wants to come into the united states. he has to go through one of the immigration quotas. mr. snyder. he must get an immigration visa. senator cooper. i remember during the war and after the war we had problems with persons who had become naturalized citizens, and were returned to their countries, and in effect renounced their citizenship in various ways. as i remember, under certain circumstances they could renew their citizenship with the united states. but, as i understand it, there is no provision of law respecting a citizen of the united states who actually renounces his citizenship. mr. chayes. the issues in all those cases, i believe, were whether the purported expatriating act was actually an expatriating act. whether they had voted voluntarily or served in a foreign army voluntarily, or something like that. senator cooper. all this matter, the legal side of it, will be put into the record? mr. coleman. at o'clock, sir. now, mr. snyder, after you wrote that letter to mr. boster, which is commission exhibit no. , you received a reply to your letter which was signed by nathaniel davis, acting officer in charge, soviet affairs, dated december , , which has been marked commission exhibit no. . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. snyder. yes. mr. coleman. sir, also on december , , you sent an airgram to the state department indicating that you had been informed that oswald had left the hotel at which he had been staying in moscow, is that correct? mr. snyder. yes, sir. mr. coleman. i show you a document which has been identified as commission exhibit no. , and ask you whether that is a copy of the airgram you sent forward to the department. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. snyder. yes. mr. coleman. in exhibit no. , you stated that you felt that he had not carried through with his original intent to renounce american citizenship in order to leave a crack open. now, what information did you have which led you to put that in the airgram? mr. snyder. i am not sure whether this was my statement or---- mr. coleman. well, would you look at that, sir? mr. snyder. yes; this was the statement of the correspondent. the correspondent states that. mr. coleman. oh, you were informing the department that the correspondent told you that she felt that oswald may have been leaving a crack open? mr. snyder. that is right. this crack part here is part of the sentence "correspondent states." mr. coleman. who was the correspondent? mr. snyder. this was priscilla johnson. mr. coleman. and i take it you were the one that prepared commission exhibit no. ? mr. snyder. yes, sir. mr. coleman. you also state that no known soviet publicity on case. i take it you meant by that there had been no mentioning in the soviet press about oswald. mr. snyder. yes, sir. mr. coleman. are you saying from the time he came into your embassy office until the time you wrote that airgram, that there was nothing in the soviet press about oswald? mr. snyder. not to my knowledge. mr. coleman. is that usual in these cases, where americans attempt to renounce their citizenship? mr. snyder. i think if there is a usual pattern--and, again, this is difficult to use words like "usual" because there are never two cases alike in this sort of thing--but if there is a usual pattern, it is that there is some exploitation of the defector in soviet public media, usually after the details of his defection have been settled, particularly the detail as to whether the soviet union desires to have him. up to that point, publicity in the soviet press probably is not to be expected. mr. coleman. after you sent the airgram dated december , , to the department of state, which is commission exhibit no. , you didn't have any more contact with oswald until some time in february , is that correct? mr. snyder. yes, sir. mr. coleman. in the meantime, however, there was correspondence between the embassy in moscow and the state department, is that correct? mr. snyder. yes, sir. mr. coleman. did---- mr. snyder. well, let me see. mr. coleman. i will mark---- mr. snyder. i guess there was. there was one or more welfare and whereabouts inquiries concerning him from his mother, which i think was the bulk, if not all, of the correspondence which we were engaged in between those two periods. mr. coleman. well, one such memorandum which went from the state department to moscow was a memorandum dated march , , which has been marked as commission exhibit no. , which indicates that representative wright of texas had made inquiry with respect to the whereabouts of oswald. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. snyder. yes, sir. mr. coleman. and attached to the operations memorandum which was marked as commission exhibit no. is the letter sent to congressman wright, which has been marked as exhibit . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. coleman. and also a letter sent to mrs. marguerite oswald, which has been marked as commission exhibit no. . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. coleman. in reply to commission exhibit no. , you prepared and sent to the department of state an operations memorandum under date of march , , which we have marked as commission exhibit no. . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. snyder. yes, sir. mr. coleman. in commission exhibit no. , you make the statement that the embassy has no evidence that oswald has expatriated himself other than his announced intention to do so "and the embassy is, therefore, technically in a position to institute an inquiry concerning his whereabouts through a note to the foreign office." do you recall that statement in the operations memorandum? mr. snyder. yes, sir. mr. coleman. was it your thought, then, that based upon all the documents you had and what transpired on october , , and the subsequent letter that oswald sent, that in your judgment he had not renounced his american citizenship? mr. snyder. the statement which i made in that letter--to be quite accurate, as to its content--was made not for the--that is, the statement wasn't directing itself to the question has oswald lost his citizenship or not, but rather to the question would we have the right in soviet eyes to ask about the whereabouts of this man. the soviet authorities took a very strict line that no foreign government had the right to inquire about any resident of the soviet union unless he was their citizen. so that my statement was merely--was meant there to support my conclusion that the embassy, as far as we could see, would have the right in soviet eyes to ask about the whereabouts of oswald--because we had no reason to believe he was not our citizen, and, therefore, we had a perfect right to ask about where he might be. representative ford. in other words, in your own mind, at that point, he had not renounced his citizenship? mr. snyder. there is no question he had not renounced his citizenship; yes, sir. mr. coleman. you considered that he was still an american citizen as of march ---- mr. snyder. no evidence to the contrary. mr. dulles. that is, he hadn't taken the procedures required under the law to renounce his citizenship? mr. snyder. he had not renounced his citizenship, and there was no evidence that he had acquired soviet citizenship. these were the two things under which i think he could possibly have lost his citizenship at that time. so, for lack of evidence to the contrary, he was an american citizen. mr. coleman. on april , --you received an operations memorandum from the department of state, dated march , , which we have had marked as commission exhibit no. . do you recall receiving that? mr. snyder. yes, sir. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. coleman. the second paragraph of that memorandum indicates that a lookout card or file has been opened or prepared. mr. snyder. yes, sir. mr. coleman. what does that mean? mr. snyder. never having worked in this end of the department of state, i can say only what it would mean in general terms--when one says a lookout card has been prepared, it means that an entry has been made in the file in such fashion that should someone look in the file for--under this name or this category, that there would be--that their attention would be flagged by this entry, and their attention would be called to the fact that there is something that they ought to look into. in other words, it is kind of a red flag placed--perhaps red flag is not the word to use here--but it is a flag placed in the file to attract the attention of anyone looking in the file under that. mr. coleman. then on may , , and again on june , , you received two operations memorandums from the state department making inquiries with respect to mr. oswald. can you identify those? mr. snyder. yes, sir. mr. coleman. you remember receiving those? mr. snyder. yes, sir. mr. coleman. the operations memorandum dated may , , was given commission exhibit no. , and the operations memorandum dated june , , has been given commission exhibit no. . (the documents referred to were marked commission exhibits nos. and , respectively, for identification.) mr. coleman. in response to those two operations memorandums, you, then, on july , , sent forth an operations memorandum which has been given commission exhibit no. , which states that until you get other instructions, you are not going to make any further inquiry or do anything further in connection with oswald, is that correct? (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. snyder. that is correct. mr. coleman. then, sir, on february , , you received a department of state instruction which was marked as commission exhibit no. , which requested the embassy to ask the ministry of foreign affairs--to inform the ministry of foreign affairs that mr. oswald's mother was worried about his personal safety, and was anxious to hear from him. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. coleman. did you ever make such an inquiry of the ministry of foreign affairs? mr. snyder. no, i think i did not. mr. coleman. do you know just when that department instruction reached the embassy in moscow? mr. snyder. the date should be stamped on the document. mr. coleman. well, on the copy we have, sir, there is no date. i take it you have no independent recollection? mr. snyder. no; it should have been within a week, though. mr. coleman. i take it, though, you would say that commission exhibit no. went by diplomatic pouch. mr. snyder. yes, sir. mr. coleman. this didn't go by cable? mr. snyder. no, that is not a telegraphic form. mr. coleman. on february , , you received a letter from mr. oswald, did you not? mr. snyder. yes, sir. mr. coleman. i show you a copy of a letter which has been marked as commission exhibit no. , and i ask you whether that is a copy of a letter you received from mr. oswald. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. snyder. yes, sir. representative ford. mr. chairman, it would be helpful, i think, if we would pass these around, or if copies would be available to us at the time. otherwise--at least i am not able to know what is transpiring between the counsel and the witness. are there extra copies of these we could have to examine as the exhibit is submitted to the witness? mr. slawson. we could have them made up, mr. ford. i don't think there are any extra ones right now. the chairman. well, suppose before you pass it to the witness you pass it to me, and i will pass it to congressman ford, and then over to commissioner dulles. mr. snyder. this letter is presumably the reason why no action was taken on the previous operations memorandum. it was overtaken, presumably, by oswald's letter. mr. coleman. could you indicate for the record what oswald said in his letter which has been marked as commission exhibit no. ? mr. snyder. perhaps i might just read the letter into the record. the letter is dated february, no date. "dear sirs"---- mr. dulles. what year? mr. snyder. . "since i have not received a reply to my letter of december , i am writing again asking that you consider my request for the return of my american passport. "i desire to return to the united states, that is if we could come to some agreement concernig [sic] the dropping of any legal proceedings against me. if so, then i would be free to ask the russian authorities to allow me to leave. if i could show them my american passport, i am of the opinion they would give me an exit visa. "they have at no time insisted that i take russian citizenship. i am living here with non-permanent type papers for a foreigner. "i cannot leave minsk without permission, therefore i am writing rather than calling in person. "i hope that in recalling the responsibility i have to america that you remember your's in doing everything you can to help me since i am an american citizen. "sincerely lee harvey oswald." mr. dulles. that is addressed to the american embassy in moscow? mr. snyder. it is simply "dear sirs:" as near as i can recall, it came by mail, through the soviet mail, addressed to the embassy. mr. coleman. had you received a letter from mr. oswald at a date of december , the way he mentioned in the first paragraph of his letter? mr. snyder. no, sir; we did not. mr. coleman. this is the first letter you received? mr. snyder. this is the first communication since he left moscow. mr. coleman. i would next like to mark as commission exhibit no. the reply which you made to mr. oswald, which is dated february , . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. dulles. when you say since he left moscow, that was in---- mr. snyder. november , sir. mr. dulles. november ? mr. snyder. this is what we presume was the date. mr. coleman. mr. dulles, we have other evidence that he didn't leave until january , . mr. dulles. the last the embassy heard from him was in november ? mr. snyder. yes, sir. mr. coleman. you have been shown commission exhibit no. . is that a copy of a letter which you sent to mr. oswald? mr. snyder. yes, sir. mr. coleman. at the same time did you inform the state department that you had received a letter from mr. oswald? mr. snyder. i presume that i did. mr. coleman. i have had marked as commission exhibit no. a foreign service despatch under date of february , , from the embassy in moscow to the state department in washington. i would like to ask you whether this is the despatch which you sent forth to the department. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) representative ford. do the records show the date that the letter from oswald was written--yes; february --and received february . this communication is dated february . is that a long or a short time in communicating with washington? mr. snyder. i would say it is a long time. representative ford. is there any explanation why it is a long time? mr. snyder. the only thing i could think of is simply that moscow is a very busy office, and mr. oswald's case was no longer the top of my docket. representative ford. had there been any communication with the state department in washington concerning the inquiries of the mother, other than this? mr. snyder. i don't know, mr. ford. the only knowledge i had at the time of inquiries is what i was informed of by the department. i presume that they informed me of all inquiries--since they could hardly act upon them themselves. representative ford. what is the date of the last inquiry by the mother as to oswald's---- mr. coleman. sir, i think the record will show that on january , , the mother came to the state department and as a result of that visit, that inquiry of february , , went forward, making the inquiry. it has already been put in as an exhibit. representative ford. this is the trouble not keeping copies available. it is a little difficult to follow the sequence. mr. coleman. it is commission exhibit no. . representative ford. this document, commission exhibit no. , shows what, as far as you are concerned, mr. snyder? mr. snyder. well, it shows an interest by oswald's mother in his whereabouts. representative ford. as of what date, and where? mr. snyder. it says that mrs. oswald called at the department of state on january , ; she personally called at the department to inquire about her son. representative ford. and that was communicated to the embassy in moscow? mr. snyder. yes, sir. representative ford. when was it received in the embassy in moscow? mr. snyder. well, this doesn't show the date of receipt, but it was sent on february , and was received within a week of that time. representative ford. and according to the records, the letter written by oswald on february , , which was received--was received february , . mr. snyder. yes. representative ford. and this document, commission exhibit no. , shows a reply was given february , is that correct? mr. snyder. i think that is correct, sir. mr. dulles. does that mean it took days to go from minsk to moscow? mr. snyder. yes, sir. mr. dulles. isn't that an unusually long time? mr. snyder. well, not too much of that time is transit time. mr. dulles. that is what i was getting at. representative ford. it also shows it took days to get out of the american embassy. mr. snyder. you must remember that in my eyes, as the officer on the spot, mr. oswald had no claim to prior action from the embassy among other cases. and although the consular officer attempts to be as impersonal as he can about these things, in matter of fact it is very difficult to be entirely impersonal. mr. oswald had no claim to any unusual attentions of mine, i must say. i think that the letter from oswald from the metropole hotel to the embassy took something like days or days. representative ford. what does that mean to you? does that mean that his correspondence was intercepted? mr. snyder. there was no question about that, mr. ford? representative ford. intercepted by soviet authorities? mr. snyder. oh, yes; this has been known for years. representative ford. common practice? mr. snyder. oh, yes; every embassy there knows the system, and operates within it. all mail from or to a foreign embassy in moscow goes to a separate section of the moscow post office, called the international section, and this is the screening office for all mail to and from any embassy. representative ford. as far as you know, is that still the process today? mr. snyder. i am sure it is, sir. the essentials of the soviet state haven't changed. senator cooper. may i ask a few questions? i have been examining these exhibits which have been introduced. the first one i have looked at is exhibit no. , which refers to lee harvey oswald's call at the embassy and your interview with him. mr. dulles. is that from moscow to washington, the state department? senator cooper. yes; it is your interview with oswald. mr. snyder. yes, sir; that is right. senator cooper. in this he states that he applied for a soviet tourist visa in helsinki on october . he applied for citizenship by letter to the supreme soviet on october , in moscow. and your report to the state department said that he appeared at the embassy on october , and presented his request for renunciation in writing. i assume that you have had other cases of this kind, have you not? mr. snyder. well, particularly the petrulli case, yes; a few weeks earlier. senator cooper. would it be normal in your judgment that this period of time, from the time he applied to the soviet for citizenship, the supreme soviet, which was on october , as he said, it would not be acted upon in weeks? mr. snyder. i would think it would be highly unusual if it were acted upon in weeks; yes, sir. senator cooper. did others talk to him in the embassy beside you? mr. snyder. not to my knowledge; no, sir. senator cooper. did you know whether or not newspaper people, american newspaper people were talking to him? mr. snyder. i know that priscilla johnson talked to him. whether others got to him, i don't know. he wasn't terribly communicative. senator cooper. did she tell you she talked to him? mr. snyder. oh, yes. senator cooper. but you do not know whether or not other members of the embassy staff talked to him? mr. snyder. i have no reason to believe that anyone else talked to him, other than myself, senator cooper. that is, at this time. i mean at a later time, mr. mcvickar, i presume, talked to oswald. he talked to his wife, i am quite sure. i presume that oswald was with her. but up until the time that i left moscow, oswald was my baby, and i don't think anyone else talked to him in the embassy. mr. dulles. were there other cases, other than the petrulli and the oswald case, where americans attempted to or did renounce their citizenship while you were in moscow in this period? mr. snyder. no, sir. senator cooper. to whom were you directly responsible in the embassy? mr. snyder. my immediate superior was mr. freers, edward freers, who was the deputy chief of mission. senator cooper. was he informed about this case? mr. snyder. yes, sir. senator cooper. who was the american ambassador at that time? mr. snyder. ambassador thompson. senator cooper. did he know about it? mr. snyder. i presume he did. ambassador thompson knew everything that went on in his shop. if through no other means, both the ambassador and the dcm, the deputy chief of mission, read the correspondence coming in and out, and this is their basic line of information. senator cooper. in your report, commission exhibit no. , you stated that he knew the provisions of u.s. law on loss of citizenship, and declined to have them reviewed by the interviewing officer. is that correct? he said he knew how he could renounce his citizenship? mr. snyder. yes; i attempted to explain to him at the time the seriousness of his move, the meaning of it, the irrevocability of it and the section of law applying. he was quite curt in his manner, and apparently among other things, declined to have me read the law to him. senator cooper. exhibit no. refers to the letter received by the embassy from lee oswald, who was residing in the metropole hotel. it does show that it was dated november , and received, according to this, on november , no, date sent november . this could be a speculation. it appears to me, though, it is a very well written letter. "i, lee harvey oswald, do hereby request that my present united states citizenship be revoked. i appered [sic] in person, at the consulate office of the u.s. embassy, moscow, on oct. st for the purpose of signing the formal papers to this effect. this legal right i was refused at that time. i wish to protest against this action and against the conduct of the official of the united states consular service who acted on behalf of the united states government. my application requesting that i be considered for citizenship in the soviet union is now pending before the supreme soviet of the u.s.s.r. in the event of acceptance, i will request my government to lodge a formal protest regarding this incident." signed "lee harvey oswald." i would assume that the last sentence referred to the soviet union. mr. snyder. yes, sir. senator cooper. from your examination and interview with lee harvey oswald, your talks with him, does that letter appear to be one which he had the capacity to write in that language and form? mr. snyder. that is a difficult thing to speculate on, senator cooper. i would say this---- senator cooper. it is a very good letter. mr. snyder. at first blush, i would not say that it was beyond his capacity. he did strike me as an intelligent man. he was certainly very articulate. actually still a boy, i suppose, in a sense--he was at the time i saw him. he was a very articulate person, and quite intelligent. i don't think from what i saw of him that the letter is beyond his capacity to have written. there is also an element of it which is very much oswaldish, and that is the last paragraph, the rather strident tones of it. one finds this in his other correspondence with the embassy, and in the tone which he took when he first spoke with me--extremely strident tone. it is almost comical in a sense, this last paragraph, in its pomposity, its sonorousness. i am quite prepared to believe that the last part at least is oswald's. senator cooper. one other question. in your report you noted that he had made statements about the united states, derogatory statements. did he ever direct his statements toward any individual in the united states, any official? mr. snyder. no; i have no recollection that he directed his statements against anyone, senator cooper. i think that if he had, i would likely have reported this matter. as a matter of fact, on the general subject of the molding of his attitudes, he was not very communicative. mr. dulles. was he technically correct there in his statement--i believe he said that his application was pending before the supreme soviet. is that technically correct? mr. snyder. that is technically correct; yes, sir. the chairman. you may continue, mr. coleman. mr. coleman. now, mr. snyder, on march , , you sent a foreign service despatch to the department indicating that you had received a second letter from mr. oswald on march , , and you said that the letter was postmarked minsk, march , and moscow march . i would like to show you a commission document which has been marked as commission exhibit no. , and ask you whether that is a copy of the foreign service despatch which you sent forth to the department. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. dulles. could this be very briefly summarized for the record while it is being read? mr. coleman. in this despatch, he sets forth the letter which mr. oswald sent, which basically said that it would be hard for him to get to the embassy in moscow, and why can't they send the papers to minsk? mr. dulles. these are the papers about his return? mr. coleman. yes, papers that he would have to fill out to see if he was entitled to get his passport back. would the witness identify the despatch? is that the one you sent? mr. snyder. yes; it is. mr. coleman. i take it that the first answer you got from the department to your despatch of february , , which is marked as commission exhibit no. , indicating the first letter you received from oswald, and then the second despatch marked commission exhibit no. , was a state department instruction dated april , , which was marked as commission exhibit no. . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. coleman. is that the despatch which you received? mr. snyder. yes, sir. senator cooper. and then again on may , , you sent another despatch to the state department indicating that you received another letter from oswald, and stating that you thought you would return to oswald his passport, and that has been marked as commission exhibit no. . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. dulles. mr. chairman, i note a reference in the margin here, in commission exhibit no. . do you know whose handwriting that is in, mr. snyder? mr. snyder. yes, sir; that is my handwriting. mr. dulles. what does that say? mr. snyder. it says, "may be necessary give him before he can arrange depart." mr. coleman. now, mr. snyder, on or about july or , , mr. oswald physically appeared at the american embassy again, did he not? mr. snyder. yes; i saw him once more--i believe once more--possibly twice. mr. coleman. actually he came in on a saturday, did he not, which was july , and then you saw him again on the following monday, isn't that correct? didn't you actually see him twice during that period? mr. snyder. i think that i must have. as i say, i think i must have, because of my review of the record at the time indicates that i think i saw him on the th, and the application was taken on the th, which means, i presumably saw him twice. mr. coleman. do you recall when he came into the embassy on the th and what he said, and what you did? mr. snyder. no; in fact, i have no recollection of his having come in at that time, mr. coleman. mr. coleman. in the course of these two interviews on the th and on the th, he actually filled out an application for renewal of his passport, did he not? mr. snyder. yes, sir. mr. coleman. and you handled that application? that is correct? mr. snyder. yes, sir. mr. coleman. i next have marked as commission exhibit no. , a six page document which purports to be an application for renewal of passport, together with a questionnaire which was attached thereto, and ask you whether that is a copy of the application for renewal which you filled out at that time. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. snyder. with reference to his visit on the th, it is possible that he telephoned. again, i don't know quite what our record shows on that. mr. coleman. well, to help you refresh your recollection, sir, there has been marked as commission exhibit no. a foreign service despatch dated july , , in which you described the meeting with oswald. perhaps you would want to be reading that. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. snyder. this is the interview which i thought i had on the th. representative ford. what does it mean in this questionnaire [commission exhibit no. ] where oswald says, and i quote, "i recived [sic] a document for residence in the u.s.s.r. but i am described as being 'without citizenship'"? mr. snyder. this undoubtedly refers to his so-called internal soviet passport, mr. ford. every soviet citizen living in urban areas, and also in the border areas, bears an internal passport which identifies him, has certain other information about him, and bears a notation of nationality. there are, as i recall, three varieties of this. one is for soviet citizens, one is for citizens of foreign countries, i believe, and another is for stateless persons. the chairman. what is the last category? mr. snyder. stateless persons. my mind is not clear at this stage as to whether the passports for foreigners and stateless persons is the same or not. i don't quite recall. at any rate, there is an entry in there which asks to state his nationality. no, it is a separate passport. as i recall the title of it, it is called--it is a separate passport. mr. dulles. did the soviet union ever indicate to the embassy, as far as you know, that they considered oswald as stateless, or is that oswald's own statement? mr. snyder. the only indication is the internal passport which he had, which was made out by local officials, and which may have been based upon a statement that oswald himself made to them. he may have regarded himself as being stateless, i don't know, at the time he applied for that document. mr. dulles. and that did not necessarily require, as far as you know, reference to moscow? mr. snyder. no. mr. dulles. you think the local authorities could have done that on their own, and on the information they got from oswald? mr. snyder. yes; the term "stateless," i might interject here, is used rather loosely by soviet authorities, because, in the first place, they have clearly no authority and no basis upon which to determine whether a person is a citizen of a foreign state. i mean only the foreign state can determine that. so that the soviet authorities had no basis on which to determine whether oswald was or was not a citizen of the united states or of six other countries. mr. dulles. except the fact that they had seen his passport and knew of the existence of his american passport. mr. snyder. on that basis, they would--well, he was certainly an american citizen when he entered as far as they were concerned; yes, sir. representative ford. is a person who is stateless the same as a person who is "without citizenship"? mr. snyder. yes, sir; this distinction is only in translation, mr. ford. mr. coleman. mr. snyder, in the passport application, at the bottom there is a place where you have to cross out "have" or "have not" in connection with four questions. could you read into the record the printed part at the bottom of the application? mr. dulles. would you just clarify for us what application this is? mr. coleman. this is the application for the passport renewal which oswald signed---- mr. dulles. for the american passport to return to the united states? mr. coleman. well, this is a renewal of the passport. mr. dulles. a renewal of the passport to return to the united states? mr. snyder. it says, "i have--have not--been naturalized as a citizen of a foreign state; taken an oath or made an affirmation or other formal declaration of allegiance to a foreign state; entered or served in, the armed forces of a foreign state; accepted, served in, or performed the duties of, any office, post or employment under the government of a foreign state or political subdivision thereof; voted in a political election in a foreign state or participated in an election or plebiscite to determine the sovereignty over foreign territory; made a formal renunciation of nationality, either in the united states or before a diplomatic or consular officer of the united states in a foreign state; been convicted by court martial of deserting the military, air or naval service of the united states in time of war, or of committing any act of treason against or of attempting by force to overthrow, or of bearing arms against the united states; or departed from or remained outside the jurisdiction of the united states for the purpose of evading or avoiding training and service in the military, air or naval forces of the united states. "if any of the above-mentioned acts or conditions are applicable to the applicant's case, or to the case of any other person included in this application, a supplementary statement under oath should be attached and made a part hereof." mr. coleman. mr. snyder, as i read the application, what you did was to cross out the "have not" which means that oswald was stating that he had done one of those acts which you have read, is that correct? mr. snyder. this is what it would mean. mr. coleman. which one of the various acts that you have read was it your impression that oswald was admitting that he had done? mr. snyder. well, there are two possibilities here. one possibility is that the crossing out of "have not" is a clerical error, and that he did not intend to do this. mr. coleman. how could that be a possibility. don't you pretty much negate that possibility by the fact that you did require him to fill out the questionnaire which only has to be filled out if he admits that he has done one of the various acts? mr. snyder. no; the questionnaire is filled out routinely in moscow in any kind of problem case. mr. coleman. even though the citizen has done none of the acts which are set forth in the passport renewal application? mr. snyder. yes; well, i say in a problem case. i don't mean an american tourist coming in to get his passport renewed, on whom there is no presumption of any problem at all. but a person who has resided in the soviet union---- mr. coleman. is it your testimony this is only a typographical error? mr. snyder. this is one possibility. the other possibility is that he may have said, "i have taken an oath or made an affirmation or formal declaration of allegiance to a foreign state." he had, on several occasions, you know, stated that his allegiance was to the soviet union. he may have put this down--that is, he may have said "have", having that act in mind, knowing that i knew it, and that there was no need to attempt to hide the fact. this is possible. mr. coleman. do you recall just what you had in mind on july when he gave you that application filled out in the manner it was? mr. snyder. i am sorry, i don't think i understand the question. mr. coleman. then i will withdraw it and rephrase it. do you now recall what reaction you had in mind when you received the application which had been crossed out in such a way that indicated that he was admitting that he had done one of the various acts which are set forth on the form? mr. snyder. no; i don't. of course what i would have been concerned with at the time in more detail really is the questionnaire, which is an expansion of this paragraph, and is much more meaningful. so i would have been concerned both with what he said on the questionnaire and with the facts of his case--whether he thought he committed one of these acts is not material to the fact of whether he had committed it or whether he lost his citizenship thereby. at any rate, my attention would have been directed to the expanded questionnaire in which he had to fill out individual paragraphs concerning each one of these things, and to a determination of the facts in the case. mr. dulles. do you recall whether or not that striking out was noted at the time the passport application or extension was considered? mr. snyder. i do not, mr. dulles; no. representative ford. did you have his file out and looking at it, reading it, studying at the time he was there and this came up? mr. snyder. i presume i did, mr. ford, but--i am sure his file was there. but in any event, i was the officer handling his case. having written virtually everything in the file from the outgoing point of view, i was very well familiar with it. mr. coleman. in any event, having received the questionnaire and the application, you determined that mr. oswald was entitled to an american passport, is that correct? mr. snyder. yes, sir. mr. coleman. and you sent forward the application and the questionnaire in the foreign service despatch of july , , which has been marked exhibit no. , is that correct? mr. snyder. yes, sir. mr. coleman. and your recommendation was that the passport should issue--the passport office should issue a new passport, is that correct? mr. snyder. i would issue the passport; yes. mr. coleman. and also on the same day, at the end of the interview on july , , you returned to mr. oswald the american passport which he had given you in . is that correct? mr. snyder. yes. mr. coleman. didn't you stamp that passport before you returned it to him? i show you commission exhibit no. and ask you would you indicate to the commission---- mr. dulles. could i ask one question before the witness answers this question? was that application and questionnaire considered in the state department before the passport was issued, or was the passport issued on general instructions before they received this application? mr. snyder. i will have to correct a word we used before. it is renewal, and not issuance. his passport was good for another years if we renewed, and he was applying for renewal of his passport, not issuance of a new one. in either event, the issuance or renewal would have been done by the embassy, by me. mr. coleman. the problem, mr. dulles, is the existing passport he had, by its term, would expire september , is that correct? mr. snyder. yes, sir. mr. coleman. and you felt he would not be able to get out of the soviet union prior to september , and therefore his existing passport would have to be renewed? mr. snyder. i don't recall offhand what the purpose of renewing the passport at that time was. there was no prospect of his leaving the soviet union at that time, and probably not for quite some time to come, in my estimation, and based upon my experience with other cases he would have required his passport, and i presume this is why i was returning it to him. mr. coleman. on july , , you did two things with respect to the passport. first, you returned to him his old passport, isn't that correct? mr. snyder. i think i did. i might reread my despatch and see. mr. coleman. and, second, you accepted his application for renewal of the passport. mr. snyder. yes; my mind is clear on that. yes; i recall now. mr. coleman. when you returned to him his old passport, you first stamped the old passport. mr. snyder. yes. mr. coleman. will you indicate for the record how you stamped the old passport? mr. snyder. the passport was marked "this passport is valid only for direct travel to the united states." (commission exhibit no. , p. .) mr. dulles. are you quite clear you returned the passport to him before he made his final plans to return? mr. snyder. i am not entirely---- mr. coleman. sir, before you answer the question, i suggest if you look at the foreign office despatch dated july , , you will find that you told the department what you did at the time. mr. snyder. oh, yes. mr. dulles. could that be read into the record--just what he did say about the handling of the passport at that time--that is july what? mr. snyder. july , . this was july . "oswald intends to institute an application"---- mr. coleman. pardon me. wasn't it really july ? july was the day he came over to the embassy just for a few moments. then he came back on the th. mr. snyder. i don't know. it isn't clear from my despatch, i would say. mr. coleman. would you read---- mr. snyder. actually, if we knew what day of the week the th was---- mr. coleman. subject to check, it was a saturday. mr. snyder. "oswald intends to institute an application for an exit visa immediately upon his return to minsk within the next few days. his american passport was returned to him for this purpose after having been amended to be valid for direct travel--for direct return to the united states only." mr. coleman. in that same foreign service despatch you indicated at the end that you were sending to the passport office in washington the application for renewal, isn't that correct? mr. snyder. yes; that is right. representative ford. may i ask mr. snyder--on commission exhibit no. , where oswald said, "i have been naturalized as a citizen of a foreign state," and so forth--if that was the only statement that was made, what effect would that have had on his application either for a renewal or a new passport? mr. snyder. well, it would have the effect of flagging the consular officer to ask some questions, mr. ford. representative ford. would it have automatically disqualified him for renewal or the issuance of a new passport? mr. snyder. no, sir. representative ford. not under the law or the regulations? mr. snyder. not to the best of my knowledge. in other words, what he says, to my knowledge, is immaterial to a finding of his loss of nationality. it is the act which counts. mr. coleman. i don't think that is quite the congressman's question. his question is if he had actually naturalized himself, could he be entitled to get an american passport? mr. snyder. oh, no; of course, if he had committed the act of accepting naturalization in a foreign state, he could not have. he would have lost his american citizenship. representative ford. but limiting your knowledge to what he said in this paragraph, this in and of itself would have precluded either the issuance of a new passport or renewal? mr. snyder. no; i don't think we can say that, mr. ford, because no matter what he says in there, this does not affect his right--does not affect his american citizenship. it is the determination of facts which determines it. and the only thing this does, really--well, the first thing it does is to alert the consular officer to start asking him some questions. the chairman. gentlemen, i have a call from the court. i must go over there now. we have the court conference at o'clock. will someone be here to preside at o'clock? representative ford. mr. chairman, i have to leave, too. we have a quorum call over on the floor of the house. i can be back at . but i do have to leave at the present time. the chairman. would you be back at to preside until i return from the court? representative ford. i would be very glad to, mr. chairman. senator cooper. mr. chairman, i will be able to be here part of the time this afternoon. but we are voting this afternoon. i don't know exactly what time. mr. dulles. i will be here at : , mr. chairman. the chairman. all right, fine. representative ford. may i ask how much longer you intend to go on? mr. coleman. i think i can finish in about minutes with mr. snyder. representative ford. off the record. (discussion off the record.) representative ford. back on the record. we will recess now until o'clock. (whereupon, at : p.m., the president's commission recessed.) afternoon session testimony of richard edward snyder resumed the president's commission reconvened at p.m. representative ford. the commission will come to order. will you proceed. mr. coleman. mr. snyder, we have marked as commission exhibit no. , which is a covering airgram and another copy of the application for renewal of passport, which is a copy which remained in the embassy at moscow until may , , when it was sent to the state department. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. coleman. i show it to you, sir, to call your attention that on this copy the "x" is over the "have" rather than the "have not." mr. snyder. yes, sir. mr. coleman. i had originally shown you exhibit no. , which was the other copy of the application for renewal of passport. i take it when you compare those two copies, you note that one is not a direct offset of the other. mr. snyder. yes, sir. mr. coleman. do you have an explanation of why on july , two separate typings were made of the application for renewal? mr. snyder. no, sir; i do not. mr. coleman. also on or about july , , at the same time you were interviewing oswald, the state department was sending instructions, answering your earlier despatch of may , , is that correct? i show you commission exhibit no. . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. snyder. this communication would have been received after my departure from moscow. mr. coleman. you never saw that communication? mr. snyder. no, sir. mr. coleman. that communication does indicate, doesn't it, that the state department was saying, that based upon its records, that oswald had not expatriated himself, or was still technically an american citizen? mr. snyder. yes; the one operative sentence there in the communications states, "in any event in the absence of evidence showing that mr. oswald had definitely lost united states citizenship he apparently maintains that technical status." mr. coleman. but you say you never saw that document? mr. snyder. no; this arrived after i departed from the post. mr. coleman. i show you commission exhibit no. , the state department operations memorandum dated august , , and ask you if you saw it? mr. snyder. no; it arrived after i left. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. coleman. on july and july , when oswald was at the embassy, did you see his wife, marina? mr. snyder. not to the best of my knowledge, mr. coleman. mr. coleman. did you have any knowledge that she was also in moscow? mr. snyder. i don't really know. i can't say whether at that time i had knowledge that she was or not. i don't ever recall having seen her, no. mr. coleman. when you spoke to oswald on the th or on the th of july, did he indicate that his wife was in moscow? mr. snyder. i am sorry, i don't know. mr. coleman. in connection with the various decisions you have made in this matter, did you consult with anyone? mr. snyder. i think perhaps the word "consult" isn't quite the word. i kept my superiors informed of what i was doing, and, of course, they did see my communications, and in most cases countersigned them before they went out. but in the sense of asking their opinion of what i ought to do, i don't think so. mr. coleman. did anyone instruct you as to what particular decision you should make in connection with any requests made by mr. oswald? mr. snyder. no; this was my responsibility, really. there was no one who was presumed to know more about it at the post than i did. i mean in the sense that i was the officer in charge of that activity. mr. coleman. there is one other question, sir. we have some information that oswald stated that in , when he was in the hospital, that he was in the same ward with an elderly american. do you have any idea who the elderly american could have been? mr. snyder. no; i am afraid not. mr. coleman. would there be any record in the embassy which would indicate what americans were in moscow at that time, and whether there was an elderly american who had been hospitalized? mr. snyder. we kept an informal file of all information relating to the presence of americans any place in the soviet union. in other words, any time we had a report of any kind, of any level of credibility, we kept some kind of a record. it was known that there were americans in the soviet union under various circumstances against their own will, or persons who might be americans, or might have had a claim to american citizenship, who might have been dual nationals--one doesn't know. but we would get reports occasionally from a state camp, a labor camp, of a sighting of an american, or a person who claimed to be an american. this sort of thing. mr. coleman. would that information be in a special file in the embassy, or would it be spread throughout various files? mr. snyder. no; it was in, as i recall, a separate informal listing. in other words, they were also reported to the department of state. the chances are that the department also maintained---- mr. coleman. have you any idea what that file might be called, if we were going to ask for it by name--what name we would give so that the people in moscow would know what we are trying to take a look at? mr. snyder. no; i don't. but it would most likely have been under "welfare and whereabouts." the files in moscow, i might say, the classified files are not that extensive. i mean they were one-drawer files for the most part that we officers worked on ourselves, physically. mr. coleman. when oswald came in to see you in , did you have any feeling that somebody was coaching him, or had instructed him what to say or do? mr. snyder. well, i think i am accurate in saying at that time i assumed he had been in contact with some level of soviet representative or official and had discussed his intended actions, and perhaps had had some advice from them as to what to do or how to approach things--in the sense that his words were somebody else's, i don't think i could say, because he gave me the impression, the times i saw him, of an intelligent person who spoke in a manner, and on a level, which seemed to befit his apparent level of intelligence. however, he did say in my first interview with him either "i have been told what you are going to tell me," or "i am very familiar with the arguments you are going to use on me," or words to this effect, which would be the most direct evidence, shall we say, that he had discussed what he intended to say, and how he intended to handle himself, before he came in to me. but, in any event, i think it is a foregone conclusion, from what i know of the procedures and things like this, that he was in contact with a soviet official, he was under somebody's charge in a sense during the time he was there. this was certainly the pattern in the petrulli case. my whole knowledge of the system and the way it works, the whole internal consistency of it, would lead me to believe that this were the case, unless i had firm evidence to believe otherwise. mr. coleman. how about when he reappeared on july and , ? did you feel he was being coached at that time in connection with his attempt to get his passport returned to him? mr. snyder. no; i don't have any direct evidence that he was coached, i think, in the terms in which you mean. for one thing, his manner of speech and his general approach to the degree that i recall it was, well, less stiff, less formal, and certainly less haughty than it had been on the first occasion. he also didn't use with me the kind of marxist sloganeering which i got from him on the first interview, which also, i think, is in a sense an evidence of his having been well briefed on his talk with me. the second time around this was pretty much absent from his conversation. mr. coleman. you say you felt he was well briefed on his first conversation with you in , but not in connection with his second? mr. snyder. well, again, i cannot say that he was well briefed. i just don't know. but i say, it seemed to me evident at the time that he had discussed with, presumably, a soviet person or persons what he intended to do at the embassy, and perhaps the line he should take at the embassy. mr. coleman. well, how do you feel or do you think there is any special significance to the way he entered the soviet union from helsinki in october of ? mr. snyder. well, there is some significance perhaps, but not a great amount of significance. as most travelers, most tourist travelers come into the soviet union on a prearranged tour--many do come from helsinki. many of them do not come to moscow. they go only to leningrad, spend a day or two, and go back again across the border. it is the shortest entry onto soviet territory from non-communist territory. it was at least one other case, when i was in moscow, of a person--that is with possible defecting intent, who came into the soviet union through helsinki, and who got his visa apparently directly at the soviet embassy, which i think is what oswald did, although i cannot be sure. but it was my impression at the time that he did not have a prepared tourist tour sort of thing. but i cannot be sure on this point. mr. coleman. do you draw any significance from the fact that he was able to come from minsk into moscow on july , apparently without any difficulty? mr. snyder. no; i cannot say that he came without any difficulty. he may have had considerable difficulty. it was my feeling that he would have some difficulty in coming to moscow. representative ford. did you make any inquiry about that? did that rouse your curiosity, that he was able to come? mr. snyder. no; because i expected that he would be able to come, mr. ford. as a matter of fact, the letter which i wrote to him in reply to the first letter to me which i received was very carefully worded with this in mind. it was written, for one thing, partly addressed to the soviet authorities who would read it. and partly to oswald--which could be used by him in a sense should he run up against real difficulties in getting permission to come to moscow. at any rate, i think it was my feeling at the time that he probably could come to the embassy, although it might cost him considerable difficulty. but i saw no reason to spare him this difficulty. mr. coleman. is there any other information you have which you think the commission would be interested in in connection with its work and its investigation? mr. snyder. i can't really--well, let me say that i don't know of any other facts pertinent to the investigation, or pertinent to oswald in any way which i have not presented, at least not knowingly. there may well be--there is much that i could elaborate on, on what i have said, relating to oswald. there are a good deal of small things which perhaps under further questioning might be elicited. but i am not aware of anything which i have not mentioned and which is in any way pertinent, and which ought to be mentioned. there are other observations about oswald and this sort of thing i suppose i could elaborate on to some extent. representative ford. earlier in the interrogation, mr. coleman had you outline what transpired the day that oswald walked into the embassy, in the first instance? mr. snyder. yes, sir. representative ford. the commission has in the various papers picked up following oswald's apprehension and murder, what purports to be his observations or his diary during his stay in the soviet union. have you read any of those? mr. snyder. no, sir. representative ford. he describes in one of these documents his experience that day he came into the embassy. would you in some detail relate that again, as you understand what transpired? what time of day it was, where you were, in what office, and so forth. who was with you, if anybody. mr. snyder. i might begin, i think, as i began originally, by stating that i don't recall the time of day. but from my knowledge of the facts of the case, and the fact that i told him the embassy was closed and so forth, it had to have been either a wednesday or a saturday afternoon, if not a sunday. i am told that the date on which he came actually was a saturday, so i presume it was a saturday afternoon that he came. representative ford. don't spare of the detail, because it would be interesting to get your version and his as he purportedly related it in a document of his own subsequently. mr. snyder. i am not sure whether he was brought in to me or whether i went out and met him at the door and brought him in. i don't recall whether one of my secretaries might have been on duty that afternoon. normally, she would not have been. i believe that mr. mcvickar was working in the office adjoining mine. the offices in moscow are quite small and the door between our offices is usually open. and i think that mr. mcvickar told me he was in the next office. there was no one in the office with me at the time i saw him. oswald was well dressed and very neat appearing when he came in. i don't recall whether he was wearing a suit and shirt and tie. but at any rate, his appearance impressed me at the time. and i recall that he looked very presentable. he was very curt, very proper. at no time did he insult me or anything of that sort personally. he was just proper, but extremely curt. representative ford. did he just walk in the door and you were seated at your desk? what was the way in which you first spoke to one another? mr. snyder. i don't recall whether he was ushered into my office by the secretary or one of the employees, or whether i was told that there was someone waiting for me outside, and i went and got him. it is unlikely that he walked into the offices, because he would have had to walk through two other offices to get to mine. well, he stated--he gave me a written statement, which is in the record, almost immediately upon his arrival, i believe. representative ford. that is commission exhibit no. . mr. snyder. he stated in effect that he had come to the soviet union to live in the soviet union, that he desired to renounce his american citizenship, though i don't think he used the word "renounce"--i think he used another word--but that he desired to renounce his american citizenship. that his allegiance was to the soviet union. i think initially this was pretty much what his statement was. and would i please do what was necessary to get this over with. well, during this period of the interview, as far as i recall, he was standing. and he may have seated himself some time later in it. but i think for the initial part of the interview, he remained standing and declined to take a seat. when i began to question him, he then rejoined with words to the effect, "i know what" or "i have been told what you are going to ask me, you are going to try to talk me out of this, and don't waste your time, please let's get on with the business." i then asked him--i continued to probe and see where i could find a chink in his armor some place. and i think that the initial chink which i found was regarding his relatives and place of residence in the united states. i had his passport. i don't recall whether he handed it to me, though he probably did, or whether i asked him for it. i noted that on the inside of the cover page of his passport his home address had been crossed out. when i asked him where he lived, he declined to tell me. when i asked him about his relatives--i had noted from his passport that he was years old. when i asked him about his relatives, he also said this was none of my business, and would i please get on with the business. well, i told him at that time, or fairly early in the interview, having found this kind of chink i could work on, i told him that i would have to know certainly where he lived in the united states in order to do anything else with his case. at that stage, he kind of hemmed and hawed a bit and said--well, i live at so and so. and from there on it opened the crack a little bit, and i found his mother also lived at that--that this was the address of his mother, and probing further i found out about his marine background, and that he had been recently discharged. i questioned him a bit about where he had applied for his passport, and how he had come to the soviet union, and had he gone home to see his mother, and things of this sort. some of these questions he answered, and some he didn't. however, he did not seem quite, as i recall--quite so adamant about refusing this kind of question as he did about questions closer to the bone. that is, what knowledge do you have of marxism, or where did you first come across this, or did you meet someone in the marines? representative ford. did you go into those questions in your probing with him? mr. snyder. oh, yes; this sort of question he parried. i won't say he parried them--he simply refused to answer them. the only thing which he did say in the interview was "i am a marxist." and i recall telling him then in a jocular vein, which evoked no response, that he was going to be a very lonesome man in the soviet union. but i found at that point, and from there on, that for all i could determine he was completely humorless. and this was my impression of him on the other occasions on which i saw him. he was intense and humorless. representative ford. what prompted the breakup of the interview, or the meeting? mr. snyder. well, the interview finally broke up when i couldn't get any more out of him. representative ford. was he satisfied or dissatisfied with the result of his conference with you? mr. snyder. i think he was dissatisfied, if anything. i think he had come in there to renounce his citizenship, and had found himself thwarted. it is quite possible, though, this is reading into it things which were not necessarily evident to me at the time. it is quite possible that this was to be his big moment on the stage of history as far as he was concerned. he may have contemplated this for some time, as he said--and thus my refusal at that time to complete his renunciation may have been a hurdle which he had been totally unprepared for. representative ford. did he demand at any time that this was a right he had to renounce his citizenship, and demand why you would not permit him to proceed? mr. snyder. well, i cannot really reconstruct our conversations on that line. but i clearly pointed out to him his right. and he did decline, as i recall, to have me read the law to him. he said he was familiar with it, or something, so that i need not read the law to him. so i pointed out, i believe, at that time he had a right, as any citizen has a right to give up his citizenship if he so desires. that other consideration is that the consul has a certain obligation towards the individual, and also towards his family, to see that a person--or that the consul at least does not aid and encourage an individual, and particularly a -year-old individual, to commit an irrevocable act on the spur of the moment or without adequate thought. but i told him in any event that the consulate was closed that afternoon, that i had no secretary there to prepare the papers, and that if he would come back during normal business hours i would, of course, go through with it. so i don't think that he left the room happy--if i can use that term--in his attitude towards me. i recall probing a bit on the subject of the formation of his attitudes towards marxism. i developed at this time the impression that he really had no knowledgeable background at all of marxism. i think i asked him if he could tell me a little bit about the theory of labor value, or something like that, and he hadn't the faintest notion of what i was talking about--i mean something basic to marxism. and i probed around a bit as to the sources of his attitudes. and i think the only thing he told me at the time was that he had been doing some reading, and that is about as far as i got. on that subject, he simply would not be drawn out. representative ford. did you ask him anything about his knowledge of the russian language? did he volunteer anything? mr. snyder. yes; i did ask him a bit about that. he said he had been studying russian. and, again, i had the impression--i don't recall--i may have spoken some russian to him--but i at least formed the impression that he did not know very much russian. i don't think he could have gotten along on his own in russian society. i don't think he could have done more than buy a piece of bread, maybe. representative ford. did he converse with any other member of the staff at the embassy, to your knowledge, during the time of this first visit? mr. snyder. no, no; at this time he definitely did not. and i don't think that he did during the time i was there--unless it was simply a passing word with the receptionist, or something of this sort. but as far as i know, he had no knowledgeable conversation with anyone there. actually, there were only--well, when he first came there were only two officers, mcvickar and myself, and at the time i left, three officers, with whom he might have talked. and it is inconceivable that either of the other two officers would have talked to him, knowing my interest in the case, or if i were not there somebody would have done so without making a memo for the file and for me of the conversation. representative ford. in retrospect, assuming the tragic events that did transpire last year didn't take place, and this circumstance was presented to you again in the embassy in moscow, would you handle the case any differently? mr. snyder. no; i don't think so, mr. ford. you mean in terms of would i have taken his renunciation? no; i think not. representative ford. in other words, you would have put him off, or stalled him off, in this first interview, make him come back again? mr. snyder. yes; i would have. (at this point, mr. dulles entered the hearing room.) mr. snyder. particularly, since he was a minor. normally, it would have been, i think, my practice to do this in any event, though. obviously no two cases are alike, and the consul must decide. but particularly in the case of a minor, i could not imagine myself writing out the renunciation form and having him sign it, on the spot, without making him leave my office and come back at some other time, even if it is only a few hours intervening. representative ford. in one of the despatches i believe you sent to washington, you indicated that you had informed the press--i don't recall what exhibit that is. mr. snyder. i think i said, "press informed." mr. coleman. commission exhibit no. , sir. representative ford. you say, "press informed." is that the same as informing the press? mr. snyder. no; this simply---- representative ford. what is the difference? mr. snyder. this simply tells the department that the press is onto the case, and that they can expect something from moscow on it. the department hates to be caught by surprise, they hate to read something in the newspapers before they have gotten it back home. and i am simply telling them that the moscow press corps is aware of oswald's presence, and that there would likely be some dispatches from the press from moscow on the case. representative ford. that doesn't mean the embassy informed the press? mr. snyder. oh, no. representative ford. how did you know the press had been informed? mr. snyder. again right at the moment, i cannot say. at what stage--priscilla johnson, i think, was one of the first to be aware of oswald. just how she became aware of him, and just where i became aware of her knowledge of him, i don't quite know. but this, i think, was quite early in the game. representative ford. was he given much attention by the press in moscow? mr. snyder. i cannot really speak with great authority on the point. i don't think so. this is based on several things. one, there was very little about oswald, i think, at the time other than what was sent in by priscilla johnson. secondly, i believe that oswald himself had declined to talk to some other press persons of the american press corps. priscilla, as i recall, was the only one who seemed to have an entree to him. representative ford. but you did not inform the american press in moscow of oswald? mr. snyder. no. representative ford. did you ever talk to any of the american press or any other of the press, about oswald at this time? mr. snyder. no; not that i recall, mr. ford. it was my normal practice not to discuss cases of this kind. they were occurring all the time in moscow. if it wasn't one kind it was another. and it was my practice not to discuss the details of such cases with the press simply because the cases--each one being different in any event--the cases were always ticklish. and every little bit helped or hurt in a case of this kind. and the consul needed, to the extent possible, to minimize the forces acting on the case, so that--and the press understood this very well. representative ford. were you familiar with his interview with miss mosby? mr. snyder. i don't recall that i was. i knew that priscilla johnson had seen him and had been seeing him. but i don't recall that i was aware that ellie mosby had seen him. representative ford. you were acquainted with miss mosby as well as priscilla johnson? mr. snyder. oh, yes; very well. representative ford. are any of these stories that these correspondents write on these defector cases ever checked out with your office, or people, in corresponding position? mr. snyder. normally not, i would say. representative ford. were you at all aware of the , rubles that oswald was given by soviet authorities or by an agency of the soviet union which is sometimes called, i guess, the red cross? are you at all aware of that? mr. snyder. no. representative ford. are you aware of that organization in the soviet union? mr. snyder. oh, yes. representative ford. would you describe it for us, as far as you know what it is? mr. snyder. well---- representative ford. , rubles--excuse me. mr. snyder. this was the old rubles at that time. no; i don't---- mr dulles. for the record, what was the date of the change in the value of the ruble? i think i remember it. it was around --may-june of , i think. when it went into effect, i don't remember. mr. snyder. i am sorry, i don't either, mr. dulles. it was during my term there. it seemed to me it was in the second half of my tour in moscow. but i cannot really recall. mr. dulles. i think somewhere in the record that ought to appear. i have an idea it was may of . mr. ehrlich. january , . mr. dulles. that is when it went into effect? mr. ehrlich. it was officially revalued. mr. dulles. january , --let the record show that--the ruble was revalued, so that it took about rubles to make new ruble. representative ford. so , rubles in was not an inconsequential amount. mr. snyder. oh, no. mr. dulles. it wasn't very much. mr. snyder. no; but , rubles at that time was probably two-thirds to three-quarters of the monthly salary of an average soviet worker. representative ford. could you describe---- mr. dulles. about $ , isn't it, roughly-- to in those days? mr. snyder. wait a minute; yes. mr. dulles. it was a considerable sum. representative ford. it would be more than a month's salary, then. mr. snyder. yes; an average month's salary at the time was about rubles, something around there. mr. dulles. i think the legal rate was cents, but the sort of going rate was around , i think. i think you could buy tourist rubles around , as i recall-- to the dollar. the legal rate, i think, was to the dollar. mr. snyder. no; i think the legal rate was to a dollar, mr. dulles. mr. chayes. in the same letter that states the date, which we supplied to the commission at the commission's request, it states that the legal rate was to until january . but that was the official rate. mr. dulles. i understand. mr. snyder. there were different rates. the official rate was not the rate which was used for all things. for instance, we got to for our rubles. the so-called official rate was used, for instance, in clearing foreign trade accounts and this sort of thing. representative ford. can you tell us your impression of this so-called red cross in the soviet union? mr. snyder. well, again, i cannot speak of--about the soviet red cross with any great personal knowledge. it is not a red cross organization in quite the sense in which we know it. it is clearly an organ of the state in a totalitarian state, which means it is not an independent organization, and its policies flow from the policy of the state, and of the central committee. i don't think that the soviet red cross conducts public fund-raising campaigns, for instance, in the way ours does. it also is not an organization to which an individual might turn routinely for assistance as he might in our society. since the soviet state does not admit that there is need in the soviet union, that there can be poverty or difficulty for which there are not organizations already in existence who are fully competent to deal with such problems, since they don't admit this kind of a situation--they also do not admit of public welfare organs in a sense such as the red cross. representative ford. do you know of any other cases during your period of service there where there were payments by this organization to american citizens, or americans, those who had given up or tried to give up or failed to give up their citizenship? mr. snyder. no, sir; as a matter of fact, the only way in which the soviet red cross impinged upon my experience in moscow was that they were the organ for handling whereabouts inquiries of persons living in the soviet union. if an american citizen wrote to the embassy asking our assistance in locating a relative in the soviet union, this inquiry would go from us to the soviet red cross, who was charged under the soviet system of things with actually checking into it and letting us know if they felt that was in their interest. this was the only way in which the soviet red cross impinged upon us. i do recall on a few occasions advising persons who had come into the embassy in one way or another and who were in dire need that they go to the soviet red cross. but the reaction of such persons indicated to me that they felt the soviet red cross was not the place to go. mr. coleman. mr. snyder, had you ever heard, while you were in the embassy in moscow, the secret police referred to as the red cross? mr. snyder. no. mr. coleman. you never heard the mvd, for example, referred to in that way? mr. snyder. no; to my knowledge--i mean there is an organization called the soviet red cross, which carries on at least in the international sphere some of the normal activities of international red cross organizations. the big point of departure is that they on the one hand are not independent organizations as they are in free societies, but they are an organ of the state. and, secondly, i do not think they have the same role internally that our red cross organizations do. mr. dulles. have you heard of it being used in other instances for what might be called extraneous payments--that is, payments not related to red cross work? mr. snyder. no, sir. representative ford. is there a policy that you were familiar with, as far as the soviet union was concerned, for permitting a person to apply for and be given soviet citizenship? mr. snyder. oh, yes; there is a well-defined way of acquiring soviet citizenship under soviet law. representative ford. was oswald familiar with that, as you could tell from your conversation with him? mr. snyder. well, he obviously was familiar with what one does. that is, he had made application to the supreme soviet, which is what one does. representative ford. did he tell you that? mr. snyder. oh, yes. representative ford. he did? mr. snyder. yes, sir; this is not something which is common knowledge. one would have to have inquired and found out, and had someone show you or give you the proper form on which to make application, and tell you where to address it, and this sort of thing. representative ford. what did he tell you had happened when he did that? mr. snyder. all he said was that he had made application. representative ford. he didn't indicate the application had been processed and approved? mr. snyder. no; i cannot recall what our conversation was on that score. it was quite clear that he had not received soviet citizenship. but, also, i would not have expected him to receive it that early in the game. i mean, for one thing the supreme soviet does not act on these things on a continuing basis, but acts upon them periodically. representative ford. en masse, so to speak? mr. snyder. that is right. it has them on its calendar. so many times a year it acts on petitions for soviet citizenship, presumably. presumably before it is sent to the supreme soviet with a favorable recommendation by the various government organs, a thorough investigation is made by mvd and other organs, and various officials presumably at different levels have got to stick their necks out and recommend he be accepted--that sort of thing. representative ford. if you had known that oswald was in minsk, what would your reaction have been? mr. snyder. serves him right. representative ford. why do you say that? mr. snyder. you have never been in minsk. well, in the first place, my own feeling is that there is no better medicine for someone who imagines he likes the soviet union than to live there awhile. representative ford. in minsk? mr. snyder. any place. representative ford. i am more particularly interested in minsk. mr. snyder. but provincial towns in the soviet union are a very large step below the capital, and the capital, believe me, is a fairly good-sized step down from any american populated place. but the difference between large cities and minor cities, and between minor cities and villages, is a tremendous step backward in time. and to live in minsk, or any other provincial city in the soviet union, is a pretty grim experience to someone who has lived in our society--not necessarily american, but simply in western society. it might be just the same if he lived in denmark, or some place. i mean to land up in minsk, working in a grubby little factory is quite a comedown. representative ford. have you ever been in minsk? mr. snyder. i spent about an hour walking around minsk, between trains, one time. representative ford. is there anything significant about him being sent to minsk, as far as you are concerned? mr. snyder. no, no; the only pattern that i would discern is that it is in all cases to my knowledge--all cases of which i have had knowledge, the invariable pattern of the soviets is to send defectors somewhere outside of the capital city--to settle them in some city other than moscow. there have been some minor exceptions to this. what is the name--the british defector, and the two foreign office men burgess and mclean. mclean lives or did live, until his death, just on the outskirts of moscow. mr. dulles. mclean is still alive. mr. snyder. pardon me--burgess. is burgess the one married to an american? mr. dulles. philby is married to an american. mr. snyder. one of the two, burgess or mclean, is married to an american. mr. dulles. mclean is. mr. snyder. i had an interview with mclean's mother-in-law at the embassy. at any rate, this was one exception. representative ford. it has been alleged that in minsk there are certain training schools for foreigners, or possibly for citizens of the soviet union. are you at all familiar with that? is there any information you have on it? mr. snyder. no; i have not, mr. ford. representative ford. did you ever contact any soviet officials about oswald at the time of this first interview? mr. snyder. no. representative ford. is that unusual or is that usual? mr. snyder. it is usual. representative ford. in other words, you, in your capacity, would not normally contact a soviet official about someone such as oswald? mr. snyder. that is right; yes, sir. in other words, there is nothing at that stage of the game which--for which i would have any reason to go to the soviet authorities. representative ford. even the fact that he had a visa days overdue? mr. snyder. well, of course, i am already aware in a sense and am acting under my awareness that he is living under controlled circumstances. he is not simply living in a hotel and nobody knows about it. that he is in contact with soviet authorities, and is there with their knowledge and consent. so that---- representative ford. it is implied consent, even though it may not be official as far as the documents are concerned? mr. snyder. well, actually, the document itself is quite eloquent on this subject, i think. there is the very negative fact that his visa is days overdue, and he is still there--that speaks pretty loudly for the fact that he is living there without a valid visa, at least without a valid visa in his passport, with the knowledge and consent of the soviet authorities. it could hardly be otherwise. representative ford. mr. dulles, we have a quorum call over on the floor of the house. i will have to leave. will you take over as chairman? i will be back shortly. mr. dulles. very gladly. i have one or two questions. (at this point, representative ford withdrew from the hearing room.) mr. dulles. is there any question as to whether a minor can renounce his nationality? mr. snyder. to my knowledge, there is not. to my knowledge---- mr. dulles. i will withdraw that question and ask mr. chayes that when it comes, because that probably is a matter for him rather than for you. does the embassy in moscow have any facility for learning about or finding out about errant american citizens, or any american citizens that are wandering around russia? do they register at the embassy? mr. dulles. they may. mr. dulles. there is not a requirement? mr. snyder. no; as a matter of fact, most do. most that are in moscow do stop in. mr. dulles. there is a book in the embassy that they can come in and sign? mr. snyder. yes. mr. dulles. oswald did not sign in the book, i gather. mr. snyder. i don't think he would; no. there would be no need for him to. he came into the embassy and spoke to an officer, which is a higher form of registration in a sense. mr. dulles. for the record, how long was it after his arrival in moscow that he reported to the embassy? mr. coleman. he arrived on october , and he didn't go into the embassy until october . mr. dulles. that was about the time his visa--his permission to stay was going to expire? mr. coleman. his permission to stay as designated on his visa had already expired. mr. dulles. was that a -day? mr. coleman. he was in the soviet union days before he went to the american embassy. mr. dulles. how long was his permit good for? mr. coleman. his permit was good for days. mr. dulles, only days? you, of course, get no word from the soviet union when they give visas to americans to come into the country. mr. snyder. oh, no, no; we get no cooperation from the soviet authorities on anything concerning american citizens--excepting in circumstances where they desire the embassy's help. a citizen gets sick while he is traveling in the soviet union, and they want the embassy assistance in some way or other. but even in such cases, surprisingly often, we do not hear from the soviet authorities. we hear from the traveler himself, somehow, but not from the authorities. mr. dulles. am i correct in my understanding that the state department, having issued a valid passport for travel abroad, had no way of knowing whether the owner of that passport is going to the soviet union or not? mr. snyder. well, no. mr. dulles. they have no way of knowing? so they have no way of informing you about it? mr. snyder. no. mr. dulles. i think there is a misunderstanding by a great many american people that there are certain countries that are named on the passport, which at one time i think was the case, but no longer is. as i recall it now an american passport was only stamped "not good for hungary," as i believe oswald's passport was stamped. that has been changed, has it not. mr. snyder. these stamps are changed a little from time to time. mr. dulles. i will ask mr. chayes that question. mr. snyder. hungary, north korea, north vietnam, and china---- mr. coleman. now cuba. mr. dulles. could i see that passport for a moment? i think at this particular time this passport was issued, i thought the only stamp was hungary. mr. snyder. i think there must have been others, and hungary was added after . mr. dulles. i will just read this. "this passport is not valid for travel to the following areas under the control of authorities with which the united states does not have diplomatic relations: albania, bulgaria, and those portions of china, korea, and vietnam under communist control." now, that speaks as of--this is a printed notice in the passport, and that speaks as of the date of issue of the passport, september , . and then there is a stamp--i guess that is printed on the passport--also printed, in a special box, "this passport is not valid for travel in hungary." mr. chayes. and then that is superimposed with a void stamp when we took hungary off the list of restricted areas. mr. dulles. right. i don't know whether that void stamp was put on in --but it is not important as far as we are concerned. in any event, this passport, as i understand, is perfectly good to travel to russia without any notification to the state department, is that correct? mr. snyder. oh, yes. mr. coleman. i should state for the record, sir, actually the application which oswald filed on september , , included russia as a place where he intended to visit. mr. chayes. on the other hand, the state department has no mechanism for notifying posts abroad of ordinary travel to those countries. mr. dulles. i wonder if it would not be a convenience to you if in the case, let's say, of the soviet union, or possibly other communist countries, just as a routine matter they took off this note from the passport so you would have some record there if anything turned up that this fellow had said he was going to russia. maybe that would involve administrative work. mr. snyder. i can't see what value this would be to a consul. mr. dulles. well, if a fellow got into trouble you would turn to his records alphabetically and you would find lee harvey oswald in his application said he was going to go to russia. mr. snyder. you mean if he gets in trouble in russia? mr. dulles. yes. mr. snyder. if he gets in trouble in russia, we know he is there. mr. dulles. you might; you might not. they don't always tell you. you don't think that would be of any particular value, though? mr. snyder. no; i don't, mr. dulles. under any circumstances under which it was useful to the embassy to know whether a person had said he was coming there, we can have the information by cable within hours. so to attempt--it would seem to me--to attempt to notify embassies abroad---- mr. dulles. i am not saying embassies abroad. i am saying the soviet union. mr. snyder. but why the soviet union and not poland, czechoslovakia, bulgaria? mr. dulles. i said the communist countries, i think, before. i certainly would not do it for britain, france, and friendly countries. there is no point. mr. snyder. this would involve a clerical job of major magnitude which from the embassy's point of view i don't see that it would serve any purpose. mr. dulles. well, if a young man years old just out of the marines says he is going to the soviet union, isn't that of some significance? mr. snyder. not necessarily. i mean in terms of the thousands of people--thousands of americans who flutter back and forth across the face of the earth---- mr. dulles. i am not talking about people floating back and forth across the earth. i am talking about people going to the soviet union. mr. snyder. in other words, if i had looked at oswald's application at the time he made it, knowing nothing else about it than he had just gotten out of the marines, i would not think it was so terribly unusual, or of great interest to me that this young boy is taking a trip to a number of western european countries, including the soviet union. nor would there be anything in such knowledge which would in any way i think trigger any action on my part. mr. dulles. do you have any special instructions other than the ones that you have referred to about the handling of those that renounce their citizenship, or have you covered that, do you think, quite fully? are there any special instructions that the embassy in moscow prescribed? mr. snyder. no. mr. dulles. there are none? mr. snyder. no; there are none; no, sir. this sort of thing is down to the meat of the consular officer's job. that is, he is out on his own pretty much on something of this sort. he has got to use his judgment, and such experience as he has, and such commonsense as he has. mr. dulles. he has got to know the law, too--he has to know the law and regulations. mr. snyder. oh, yes; if you don't know, the first thing you do is look up the regulation and the law and see what your basic requirement is. in renunciation cases, it is a fairly simple matter--that is, for the consular officer, as far as the law is concerned. he doesn't have a large body of law. he has a specific law which tells him exactly what the conditions are for renouncing citizenship, and that is it. mr. dulles. i differ from you a little bit, in the sense that i don't think if a young fellow years old came in to me and wanted to renounce his citizenship, and if i were doing consular work, as i was at one time--i think i would feel that that was a pretty--rather a tough one to handle. mr. snyder. i don't say it is not tough to handle. what i meant to say was that the legal basis under which the consul, or within which the consul has to operate---- mr. dulles. i will talk to mr. chayes about the problem of a minor doing that. mr. snyder. from the consular's point of view it is a fairly simple one. it doesn't require a lot of legal research. mr. chayes. just to have that in the record at this point the statute provides very clearly on the age problem, section (b) of the act provides that below years the act specified--the citizen shall not be deemed to have expatriated himself by the commission prior to his th birthday of any of the acts specified in paragraphs , , , , and . mr. dulles. that includes renunciation? mr. chayes. yes, is renunciation. but he has to assert--within months after obtaining the age of years--he has to assert his claim to u.s. nationality, in order to get this automatically. but i would think the courts would go further and hold that, especially where volunteerism is involved, as in renunciation, below years is the cutoff point--not . it used to be , but the congress reduced the age limit to . mr. dulles. well, that covers the point here. was there anything about the oswald case in the soviet press at any time to your knowledge? mr. snyder. to my knowledge, there was not, mr. dulles. mr. dulles. and the soviet authorities have given you no information about oswald that hasn't been communicated to us? you have no other information at all from the soviet authorities about oswald? mr. snyder. no, sir; i never communicated with the soviet authorities about oswald in any form, nor did they ever ask me anything about him. mr. dulles. and you don't know any of the other circumstances under which his case was reconsidered after his attempted cutting of his wrists and suicide? you don't know what channels that went through in the soviet union? mr. snyder. i was not aware of this element of the case. mr. dulles. you were not aware, of course, at that time of this element of the case. do you know what intourist guides were in charge of him? mr. snyder. no. mr. dulles. do you know any other case during the period when you were in moscow of an american who had married a soviet wife and was given an exist visa as quickly and as easily as oswald and marina were given theirs? mr. snyder. i don't know offhand whether marina oswald got her visa, her exit visa, that quickly and easily. mr. dulles. well, i think that is a matter of record--when she applied and when she got it. mr. coleman. the american visa---- mr. dulles. this is the soviet exit visa. mr. coleman. you are talking about the soviet passport? she applied for her passport---- mr. dulles. it is a visa to get out. mr. snyder. it is both. she needs a soviet passport. they are issued at the same time. mr. dulles. that is correct. mr. coleman. she applied for her soviet passport in july , and she was informed that it would be issued to her approximately on december , . mr. dulles. about months. do you know of any case where that has been accomplished in months, other than this case, during your period there? i don't think i ought to ask you about any period other than the period you were in the soviet union. mr. snyder. i think that a review perhaps of a few other of the cases of american citizens marrying soviet girls during the time i was there might show that months is not a terribly short period. there isn't, again, any standard for things like this. in the first place, so much depends upon the local officials in the beginning of the thing, and whether they drag their feet or don't, and how much pressure they put on the girl to talk her out of it, and all of this sort of business. my offhand feeling is that months is not an unusually short period of time, but it certainly is getting down to about probably the minimum of our experience with such things. mr. dulles. that is all i have, mr. witness. mr. coleman. mr. chairman, at this time i would like to offer for the record commission exhibits through except for exhibit , which we didn't identify. mr. dulles. let me take these one at a time. exhibits nos. through , except for exhibit no. , shall be admitted. (the documents heretofore marked for identification as commission exhibits nos. - , and - were received in evidence.) mr. dulles. now, for the record, what about these two numbers that are omitted? mr. coleman. when mr. mcvickar testifies he will be able to identify the documents. mr. dulles. you will have these admitted at a later date? mr. coleman. yes. mr. dulles. now, the second category you wanted to have admitted. mr. coleman. i would like to also offer into evidence commission exhibit which is the oswald passport. mr. dulles. it shall be admitted. (the document referred, to heretofore identified as commission exhibit no. for identification, was admitted into evidence.) mr. coleman. i offer for the record commission exhibit no. which is the second copy of the passport renewal application, which has been identified after lunch. mr. dulles. and exhibit no. , the passport application, shall be admitted. (the document referred to, heretofore identified as commission exhibit no. for identification, was admitted into evidence.) mr. coleman. i have no further questions, sir. mr. dulles. we are just starting with a new witness. won't you go ahead. (discussion off the record.) mr. dulles. i want to thank you very much, mr. snyder. it has been very helpful to us. mr. snyder. i hope it has. (discussion off the record.) testimony of john a. mcvickar mr. coleman. mr. john a. mcvickar, who is presently principal officer, american consulate in cochabamba, bolivia, was consul in the american embassy in moscow in , until at least the middle of . mr. mcvickar will be asked to testify concerning oswald's appearance at the embassy in october , when oswald announced his intention to renounce his american citizenship. mr. mcvickar will also be asked to testify concerning his interview of marina oswald when she applied for a visa in july of , and his actions in connection with securing a waiver of section (g) of the immigration and nationality act of , with respect to marina oswald. mr. mcvickar will also be examined on two memoranda which he has provided the state department since the assassination of president kennedy. at this time i would ask the chairman to swear mr. mcvickar. representative ford. mr. mcvickar, will you stand. do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. mr. mcvickar. i do, so help me god. mr. coleman. mr. mcvickar, will you state your full name for the record? mr. mcvickar. john anthony mcvickar. mr. coleman. that is spelled m-c-v-i-c-k-a-r? mr. mcvickar. i have given the court reporter here my card. mr. coleman. and what is your present address? mr. mcvickar. american consulate, cochabamba, bolivia. mr. coleman. what was your position with the american embassy in moscow in the fall of ? mr. mcvickar. i was one of two officers in the consular section of the embassy. mr. coleman. how long did you remain in moscow? mr. mcvickar. i was there from june of , until september of . mr. coleman. i take it you have been shown a copy of the congressional resolution with respect to the formation of this committee? mr. mcvickar. i am not sure but i think so. with respect to this commission? mr. coleman. yes. mr. mcvickar. do you want me to read it now? mr. coleman. no, just generally have it available. directing your attention to the fall of , did you have occasion to see or to talk to lee harvey oswald? mr. mcvickar. i had occasion to see him and to talk briefly to him. i was present in the office at the time he was interviewed by mr. snyder. we had an office about the size of this room with two desks in it, and mr. snyder's desk was at one end and mine was at the other, and we did our business in effect in the same room separately, but this was an unusual case, and i recall the man coming in and i recall parts of the conversation. mr. coleman. was the day he came in october , ? mr. mcvickar. i couldn't say exactly but that sounds just about right. mr. coleman. was it a saturday? mr. mcvickar. i don't know. mr. coleman. do you recall what time of the day it was? mr. mcvickar. i don't know. it might have been in the morning but i am not sure. i don't know for sure. mr. coleman. did oswald speak to you at all or was all of his conversation with mr. snyder? mr. mcvickar. i think all of his conversation, subsequent conversation, was with mr. snyder. as i recall, he said a few words to those of us who were in the office, myself and the secretary, on his way out of the office probably, but i don't really remember very much about that, if he said anything at all. mr. coleman. could you tell the commission to the best of your recollection what he said to mr. snyder that you overheard during the conversation of october , ? mr. mcvickar. in an effort to be helpful i have already, in the form of this memorandum, put everything i could remember down. mr. coleman. sir, are you referring to the memorandum you prepared on november , ? mr. mcvickar. yes; the two memoranda, the one of november , , and of april , , but, of course, i will try to recall again. as i recall, he came into the office, and in a rather truculent fashion gave mr. snyder his passport and said that he wanted to renounce his american citizenship, and he was unusually nasty about it, and he then--mr. snyder talked with him for about i would say maybe an hour, in an effort to draw him out i think. the reasons that he gave were that he was very angry at the united states and that he was no longer under the illusion that we had a good system in the united states. he had seen capitalism and imperialism in operation, and i think that he referred to his tour in the marine corps, and i think to--possibly he was stationed in okinawa. i think that he did seem to know something about the renunciation process, and it was almost as though he was trying to bait the consul into taking an adverse action against him. he mentioned that he knew certain classified things in connection with having been i think a radar operator in the marine corps, and that he was going to turn this information over to the soviet authorities. and, of course, we didn't know how much he knew or anything like that, but this obviously provoked a rather negative reaction among us americans in the consulate section. i don't think i probably can recall anything more than that for sure. mr. coleman. sir, i take it at the time that mr. oswald was in the embassy in that you did not prepare a memorandum at that time? mr. mcvickar. no; because it was not my responsibility. i did prepare a memorandum which i have a copy of here, some time later with respect to a conversation i had with the correspondent, priscilla johnson, who had been at that time, as of november , , in contact with oswald, and i think she sought my guidance as to how she should handle her contacts with him, and also i think to inform the embassy through me as to these contacts that she had had. mr. coleman. i take it the memorandum you refer to is dated november , ? mr. mcvickar. that is right. mr. coleman. we have marked it commission exhibit no. . i will ask you whether that is a copy of the memorandum? mr. mcvickar. yes; that is a copy of the memorandum. is it or --excuse me--i would like to call attention to the fact that it seems to me there is an error in the date there in the second paragraph of that memorandum. it says "she told me that on sunday may ." i am almost certain that would have been sunday, november . mr. coleman. sir, in that memorandum on the second page you have a p.s., and you state that priscilla j. told you that oswald has been told he will be leaving the hotel at the end of this week. did miss johnson tell you that? mr. mcvickar. i feel sure i wouldn't have written that if she hadn't. mr. coleman. do you know whether oswald actually left the hotel the end of the week? mr. mcvickar. i am not sure of the time that he left the hotel, but from what i gather from the record, that must have been about the time that he did leave the hotel and go to minsk. as reflected in the other memorandum it was rather unclear exactly how long oswald spent in moscow, but i think that the record is approximately accurate here, and that this would have been about the time he would have left the hotel. mr. coleman. according to other information which the commission has, which happens to be oswald's diary so we don't know how accurate it is, it is stated that he didn't leave moscow until january , . mr. mcvickar. that is new to me. mr. coleman. you had no such information? mr. mcvickar. i had no such--this is the first time i heard that. mr. dulles. he left the hotel, however, for a period, did he not? he was in the hospital for a period. mr. coleman. no, sir; he was in the hospital before he came into the embassy. mr. dulles. that is correct. mr. coleman. his suicide attempt was before october . mr. mcvickar. now it says leaving the hotel, but it doesn't say--and i think that would be all the information that would have been available at the time that i wrote that, i think the implication was that he was going to leave town as well, but that doesn't necessarily mean that he wouldn't have spent the ensuing weeks in some other place in the city of moscow. mr. coleman. in the p.s. you also indicated that "he will be trained in electronics." did you get that information from miss johnson? mr. mcvickar. well, yes; i think so, according to this. mr. coleman. did she say any more than just he would be trained in electronics? did she say what type of training he would get? mr. mcvickar. i am afraid i have no more memory than what is written here. in fact, i didn't even remember that i had written this memorandum until i saw it the other day. mr. dulles. is the language "he will be trained" or "he had been trained"? mr. mcvickar. "he will be," that is what i wrote. mr. dulles. is it possible that could have been a reference to past training during the marines when he was trained in electronics? mr. mcvickar. no; i suspect, that what i meant was, that he would be trained in electronics by the soviets, but i think that this was a rather sketchy note of the conversation, and i suspect that what she would have said, was that he would be trained in or used in the field of electronics, in such a way probably that they would get the greatest benefit from his knowledge. mr. coleman. sir, immediately prior to the time that you had the conversation with miss johnson, you had had occasion, hadn't you, on november , , to attempt to deliver a message from oswald's half brother to oswald? mr. mcvickar. yes; there is a note in the file to that effect, and i don't really remember that incident very well, just very vaguely. i think that i was given the assignment to attempt to deliver a message. i think the idea was that we would try to see what we could do to get this fellow to change his mind and go back to the united states. the attitude that we took toward him was, i think, a normal one, as one might toward a very mixed up young person, probably misinformed, and so i think this was an effort to put him back in communication with his family. mr. coleman. i would like to show you a note from the oswald file dated november , , which has been given commission exhibit no. , and a copy of a telegram to oswald from john e. pic, which has been given commission exhibit no. , and ask you, is that the telegram you attempted to deliver, and is that the note you wrote at the time when you were unable to deliver the telegram to oswald? mr. mcvickar. yes; that is the note, and i don't necessarily recollect this telegram. it may be that it was in a sealed envelope. i cannot say that i recollect the telegram, but it certainly looks like the probable telegram that would have been delivered, that i would have attempted to deliver at that time. mr. coleman. i take it that after october of , until oswald left moscow, that you had no further contact with oswald? mr. mcvickar. that is my recollection, yes, that i had no further contact with oswald. i must say that a great many things did take place in that years. i, for example, did not recollect, until just the other day when i saw the file, that i had interviewed his wife. but to the best of my recollection i never laid eyes on oswald again. mr. coleman. i think earlier in your testimony you said that you had prepared a memorandum on november , , in which you attempted to recall what happened when you were in the american embassy in , , and , is that correct? mr. mcvickar. yes. mr. coleman. a copy of the memorandum has been marked commission exhibit no. . i want to ask you whether that is a copy of the memorandum which you prepared, and sent to mr. thomas ehrlich? mr. mcvickar. yes; that is a copy of it. mr. coleman. now in that memorandum, on the last page, page , the second paragraph, you say: "in short, it seemed to me that there was a possibility that he had been in contact with others before or during his marine corps tour who had guided him and encouraged him in his actions." could you indicate to the commission the basis for making that statement? mr. mcvickar. well, i think it is clear here, and if it isn't i should certainly say, that this last page is in the nature of speculation and an attempt to be helpful. now in answer to your question, he gave me the impression, and this was supported by the impressions other people seemed to have at the time through conversation, that he was a very young person to have so many ideas in his head, and to have done so much about them, in effect, in such a relatively short time, and so it occurred to some of us that it may be that he had had some coaching from somebody; but also, i must say, he was an unusual person and apparently sort of an ingrown person, and so it may be that he had conceived and carried out all these things by himself. but i think that that paragraph in a way sums up that same idea, that it seemed that there was a possibility that he had had some guidance in carrying out this line of action. mr. coleman. does that also explain the sentence in the same paragraph where you say: "on the other hand, there also seemed to me to be the possibility that he was following a pattern of behavior in which he had been tutored by person or persons unknown"? mr. mcvickar. yes; the same applies. mr. coleman. you had no independent evidence of this at all, did you? mr. mcvickar. i was asked to explain this attitude i had as best i could, and i wrote another memorandum dated april , , in which i described to go into this line of thought. mr. coleman. could we have marked as commission exhibit no. a three-page memorandum from mr. mcvickar to mr. ehrlich, dated april , ? (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. coleman. is that the memorandum you just referred to? mr. mcvickar. yes; that is the same memorandum. mr. coleman. you say this memorandum, commission exhibit no. , was written in april , , after you had been asked to explain your earlier statement concerning following a pattern of behavior in which he had been tutored by person or persons unknown? mr. mcvickar. yes; that is correct. i believe that the commission asked for this clarification from the department of state, and it was relayed out to me in bolivia. mr. coleman. in that memorandum you first indicated that you felt that oswald probably would not know that helsinki would be a good place to go to try to get a visa into russia. mr. mcvickar. yes; i think so. it is a well enough known fact among people who are working in the soviet union and undoubtedly people who are associated with soviet matters. but i would say that it was not a commonly known fact among the ordinary run of people in the united states. mr. coleman. you also placed some reliance upon the fact that he didn't come in under a $ per day individual tour or he didn't join a group, is that correct? mr. mcvickar. well, now, when you say that he did not do these things, i don't know that he did not do these things. i was merely discussing the fact that the particular type of visa that he obtained might have some significance, and i went into a little bit maybe not in complete detail and maybe not knowing all of the factors, but i tried to go into a little bit of the different kinds of possibilities there might have been. mr. coleman. well, if it is established that oswald got a tourist visa, then i take it that paragraph of your memorandum pretty much disappears because the assumption is that he didn't get a tourist visa, is that correct? mr. mcvickar. no; i don't think entirely so. i think you would have to take a look at the amount of time that it would take him to get a tourist visa or any kind of a visa. but as i say, i can't be sure that it would be very significant. but i think it is a point, however. mr. dulles. how long is the ordinary tourist visa good for? mr. mcvickar. tourist visas are usually issued for specific periods of time, specific tours. that might be a week or might be a month, and they vary in price with the length of time and where they are going, and also how many people are in the group. if you are going by yourself it is very expensive. if you are going with larger and larger groups it becomes less expensive. mr. coleman. you also indicated in the memorandum in paragraph no. that according to your experience oswald's application to remain in the soviet union was relatively quickly accepted by the soviet authorities? mr. mcvickar. i think item is more or less canceled out by the fact that my memory was inaccurate as to how long he had stayed in moscow. i think that my paragraph is based on my inaccurate memory that he was there for only about a week, but if he was there for much longer than that, i think that is vitiated. mr. coleman. assuming that he did stay the longer length of time then, i take it you don't think there is any particular significance in the fact that he was able to remain in the soviet union? mr. mcvickar. no; i think that the length of time that he apparently was in moscow was sufficient for them to make any bureaucratic decision. mr. coleman. and in paragraph no. you indicated that he seemed to be surprisingly competent and determined about what he was doing, considering his age and experience. could you indicate for the commission just what he did which led you to that conclusion? mr. mcvickar. well, that goes back to my comment of a few minutes ago. i think his bearing and attitude was unusually confident in a very far away country where the way of doing things is very different from what it is in the united states, and considering presumably he hadn't traveled very much before, and he was very young. i think the word "competent" refers to what seems to be a rather efficiently organized chain of events which began, as i understand it, when he first applied for a passport in the united states in los angeles, on september , until his apparent appearance in moscow about october , where he applied for soviet citizenship. and it seems to me, just offhand i would say, that is a fairly well organized movement considering also that apparently he went by ship from new orleans to helsinki--that is what i understand--and was determined, as was very evident in everything he said when he was in the office, was determined to do what he was doing. mr. coleman. in paragraph no. of the memorandum you place some significance in the fact that he was permitted to belong to a rifle club and practice target shooting while in minsk. first, from where did you get that information? mr. mcvickar. i apologize for that in a way. that is complete speculation, and the rifle club was something i read about in the newspaper. i cannot be very accurate about the rifle club business, and i point out in that note that it is not related to my contact with him. mr. coleman. do you think it would be unusual from your knowledge of life in the soviet union that people would belong to a rifle club and that they could practice target shooting? mr. mcvickar. yes; i would say so; yes. representative ford. in other words, if it was a fact? mr. mcvickar. if it was a fact. representative ford. that he belonged to a rifle club and did shooting it would be unusual? mr. mcvickar. it would seem to me, yes, particularly for a foreigner, but unusual in any case, i think. mr. dulles. but you did not hear that either from oswald or from his wife whom you saw later, i believe. mr. mcvickar. no; i did not. it is unrelated to anything except what i heard about the case, and i don't know really about this. i just remember reading about it in the paper, that is all. mr. coleman. after november , , you had no more contact with oswald until some time in july , is that correct? mr. mcvickar. yes; that is right, and i believe that i didn't have any contact with him in july of . i believe i only had contact with his wife. mr. coleman. do you speak russian? mr. mcvickar. yes; or i did. mr. coleman. when did his wife come in in july of ? mr. mcvickar. well, as i recall, and as i say, my memory here was completely refreshed by the record, and i see that i have some notes in the file that are undated, but that they were used evidently to write a communication to the department of state which was dated on august , , and so i am confident that this interview must have taken place in say the week before that. i departed from the soviet union about the st of september, and things were pretty busy, and i can't remember very much more about it than i can see here in the record. i do not really remember this interview, and i can only speak about it on the basis of the record. mr. coleman. isn't it possible that you saw her on july , ? mr. mcvickar. no; because i think what happened, and i think this is reflected in the record. i think what happened was that oswald himself came into moscow and was interviewed by mr. snyder on july , and that he did not have his wife with him, and that he said that he was going to try to get his wife to come to moscow in the next few days, so that she could be interviewed in connection with the visa, but that in fact she did not appear until several weeks later, some time in august. mr. coleman. are you certain about this, sir? mr. mcvickar. this is the best of my recollection, and i am pretty sure that i read something in the record yesterday that indicates that she was not in moscow at the time he was interviewed by mr. snyder in july of . mr. coleman. wasn't it possible that mr. snyder talked to mr. oswald on july , which was a saturday, and that mrs. oswald appeared at the embassy with oswald on july the th, or on july th, or days later? mr. mcvickar. i won't say that it is not possible, and as i say, i don't remember this. but i very much doubt that i would have interviewed somebody in the middle of july and have not written to the state department about it until the end of august, and i say that honestly. that was not the way we operated. mr. coleman. you referred to some handwritten notes you saw in the file. i would like to show you commission exhibit no. and ask you whether that is the copy of the notes that you were referring to? mr. mcvickar. that is the copy of them. i do not believe they are dated, and it was with a ballpoint pen. i made this copy for myself from the copy that is in the file. mr. chayes. would it be appropriate to point out that there seems to be more on your copy than on his copy? mr. mcvickar. no, these are my own notes. this is exactly what it is here. mr. coleman. sir, i take it that commission exhibit no. is some notes you took at a time when you had an interview with marina oswald, is that correct? mr. mcvickar. yes. mr. coleman. now you have a notation "was not komsomol." what does that mean? mr. mcvickar. that i am confident means that i asked her whether she was a member of the komsomol, which is the communist youth organization, and this would have been an ordinary question for me to ask a visa applicant because this had some bearing on her admissibility to the united states under the immigration law, and i was apparently satisfied from what she said she was not. there is no other way of really establishing it under such circumstances. mr. dulles. did she say whether she had at anytime been a member of the komsomol? mr. mcvickar. i would have undoubtedly phrased my question in such a way as to cover that point, i think. mr. coleman. did you ask her whether she was a member of any particular communist organization? mr. mcvickar. yes; and i believe that, as i stated in this report to the department of state, and i think it appears a little bit in here, that she was a member of a profcoes, which is probably a combination of english and russian, but this would have been a labor union, and she apparently was a member of the medical workers labor union when she was in the technical school, and then later in her work since , it says here. mr. coleman. when you had this interview wouldn't she then have to fill out or you would have to fill out a form or some type of petition to get her classified as an alien eligible for an immigration visa? mr. mcvickar. this was not the procedure. there is a form of application for a visa, the number of which i forget. but that, under the procedure, was filled out by the applicant at a later date. this initial interview was to obtain in effect the approval of the department of state from the security point of view for the issuance of the visa, and the interview was in connection with preparing a report covering the points that are of concern to the department in that connection, and this report was prepared by me, sent in on august , . mr. coleman. sir, i have marked as commission exhibit no. a copy of a petition to classify status of alien for issuance of immigrant visa, and it shows it was signed by lee harvey oswald, and that the beneficiary was marina n. oswald, and that it was sworn to and subscribed before you on july , . i ask you, have you seen that before? mr. mcvickar. well, this is something that i did not recall. but i see that it was also an enclosure to my document which i sent in on august , . undoubtedly i must then have taken mr. oswald's oath on this document on the date specified. this would not have required the presence of his wife, but i am sure then on the basis of what i see here that this must have occurred, but i did not remember it. mr. coleman. since you have that document before you, could you then say that there is a possibility that commission exhibit no. was written on july or july , , rather than in august as you earlier testified? mr. mcvickar. i would say there is a possibility, but again i doubt it because for one thing i do recall this item in the record which said that she was not present when he came in to the embassy in july, and i am confident that there would have been no reason to hold up the type of report made here unless it was that she wasn't available for an interview. but as i say, i couldn't say for sure, but i don't remember, i don't think of any reason that would have caused a delay of this kind unless it had been that she didn't come in. i think it is too bad that i didn't date this note, but i guess i didn't. mr. coleman. can we infer from commission exhibit no. that you must have seen mr. oswald on july , ? mr. mcvickar. yes; i think this would be a safe assumption, but i don't remember anything about it, and it could have been a very routine thing you see, because the way the work was arranged was that consul snyder as the officer in charge handled our matters relating to citizenship, and i handled matters relating to visas, and this was a visa matter and he could very well have asked that i take mr. oswald's oath on this petition in behalf of his wife, and it might have a very pro forma thing. but i honestly don't remember this incident; but this sort of thing is never done unless the person is present, unless both signing parties are present. so it would seem to me that this man must have appeared to me and signed this thing and said that it was his legal act, and then i certified to that. mr. dulles. by both signing parties you only mean oswald and the notary or whoever certifies to it? mr. mcvickar. i being the notary in this case you see. but the beneficiary, mrs. oswald, did not have to be present for this thing. mr. coleman. there is a possibility she was present? mr. mcvickar. well, i think it is possible; but i rather doubt it frankly, and i doubt it on the basis of what i have said before, that i think i recall seeing in the record that she was not present, and that i don't see why this whole procedure would't have gone through much more quickly if she had been, that is all. mr. coleman. you keep on referring to the fact that you recall seeing this in the record. could you tell me where you saw it, please? mr. mcvickar. well, i can try to find it. i think the best thing would be if i looked at the moscow official file. is that right here? okay; well, maybe i can find it. is that all right if i take a minute to look through these papers? mr. coleman. yes. (discussion off the record.) testimony of abram chayes representative ford. mr. chayes, will you take the following oath. do you swear the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. chayes. i do. mr. coleman. the honorable abram chayes is the legal adviser to the department of state. mr. chayes will be asked to testify with respect to the files and other information and documents supplied the commission by the department of state dealing with mr. oswald. mr. chayes will also be asked about the legal correctness of certain decisions made by various offices of the state department with regard to oswald, including whether oswald had lost his american citizenship by his actions in , whether his passport should have been returned to him in july , whether his passport should have been renewed based upon the july , , application, whether he should have been issued his passport, and whether action should have been taken to revoke it in october as a result of information received by the passport office, and whether the department and the immigration and naturalization service acted properly in connection with section (g) of the immigration and nationality act with respect to marina. mr. chayes will also be asked about the lookout card system in the passport office. mr. coleman. mr. chayes, will you state for the record your full name? mr. chayes. my name is abram chayes. there is a middle name that i don't use. it is joseph. mr. coleman. where do you presently reside? mr. chayes. at edmunds street nw., washington, d.c. mr. coleman. when did you become legal adviser to the state department? mr. chayes. i think i was sworn in on february , . mr. coleman. so, therefore, anything that happened with respect to mr. oswald prior to that time you had nothing to do with and knew nothing about? mr. chayes. well, i should say that i never heard the name lee harvey oswald until november , , so that neither before nor after the time i became legal adviser, before the assassination, did i have any direct knowledge about oswald, nor do i believe i passed directly on any matters in the case, although there may have been some matters that were considered in my office. i am not sure about that, but i took no personal action in the case. mr. coleman. since the assassination your office has had occasion to review the various files which were in the state department dealing with lee harvey oswald, is that correct? mr. chayes. yes; on november , mr. ball, the under secretary of state, directed me to take in personal charge all the files in the department that i could find, and to review those files and be prepared with a report for the secretary the following morning on the general relations of mr. oswald and the state department. i did take some files, the basic files into my custody at that time, and retained them in my custody, i think, until we sent them to the commission at the commission's request. and others than who were working on the matter in the department had access to the files but had to work in my office on them. mr. coleman. on or about may , , you had occasion to reassemble the files and deliver another set to the commission, is that correct? mr. chayes. yes; from time to time between the first delivery, which was probably last december sometime, and just last week we have made other papers available to the commission as they have come to our own notice. a file search of this kind in a place like the department of state is a pretty elaborate business. only last week we got a whole new shipment from the moscow embassy in which they said, "we have sent you before everything that you didn't have duplicates of, but here is a whole bunch of duplicates." and it turned out that some of them weren't duplicates as appeared just this morning. we made those available as soon as they came in. mr. coleman. i take it with the covering letter of may , , and the description you made of the file together with the other files that you delivered to us just yesterday, that they constitute all of the files that the state department has? mr. chayes. as i say, they constitute all that we have been able to find, all the documents we have been able to find after a most diligent search. i myself did not personally conduct the search, but we directed responsible officers in all the various places where documents might be to give us all the documents they had, and i think we made a very intensive search, and to my knowledge there are no other documents in the department relating to this matter in any way. mr. coleman. shortly after the commission was appointed, you had prepared under your direction, and submitted to the commission a document entitled "report of the department of state lee harvey oswald," is that correct? mr. chayes. that is correct, sir. mr. coleman. and this document is an examination of the various actions taken by people in the state department, and your judgment as to the legal correctness of the various actions? mr. chayes. well, as you see, the document consists of five subparts. it is an analysis and summary of the documents in the files. we went through the files, looked at all the documents, tried to summarize them for the commission so as to give the commission the fullest possible appreciation of the contacts between oswald and the department. where it was necessary to elucidate policies or matters of law in order to give the commission that appreciation, we have done so, yes. mr. coleman. the report has been given a number of commission document no. . (commission exhibit no. .) after that you, on may , , sent a letter to the general counsel for the commission in which you answered certain questions which had been proposed by the general counsel? mr. chayes. yes; the general counsel sent us a questionnaire with two attachments, attachment a and attachment b. attachment a referred to matters mostly concerning russia and the embassy in moscow. attachment b raised questions about matters within the department, passport and visa offices within the department. each attachment contained a series of questions. again i think it is more accurate to state that the responses were prepared under my supervision and direction. i, of course, reviewed every response and and none were sent out without my approval. but i was not the draftsman or didn't do all of the work. mr. coleman. the first question that the commission would like to know about and be given some advice on is the question of whether the acts which oswald performed in october , and shortly thereafter, would in your opinion result in his loss of citizenship. mr. chayes. in my judgment they would not amount to expatriating acts. the basic analysis is covered in the third part of commission document no. , entitled "lee harvey oswald--expatriation." representative ford. on what page is that, mr. chayes? mr. chayes. well, i am sorry, each of the parts begin at no. , so it is not very convenient, but it is about halfway through. there is a memorandum entitled "memorandum lee harvey oswald--expatriation." now, in that memorandum we analyze three sections of the act under which it might be argued that an expatriation took place. mr. coleman. yes? mr. chayes. i say in that memorandum we analyzed the three possible sections of the act under which it might be argued that an expatriation took place, and in each case we conclude, and i think properly, that there was no expatriation. the first section is section---- mr. dulles. may i ask one question? this is a formal opinion of your office as legal adviser to the state department? mr. chayes. i take responsibility for this as my present opinion, yes, sir, and it goes out over my signature. we are not quite like the attorney general. we don't have opinions that get bound up in volumes. mr. dulles. i realize that it is not a formalized opinion from that angle. was this ever submitted to the department of justice for consideration? mr. chayes. no; it was not. mr. ehrlich. actually this report did go to the department of justice because it was submitted before the commission was formed. mr. chayes. yes; but it wasn't submitted to the department of justice for consideration. mr. dulles. for concurrence or anything of that kind. mr. chayes. for concurrence, no. mr. coleman. now, the first section which i assume you address your attention to was section (a) ( ). mr. chayes. we could do it that way. mr. coleman. do you want to start with (a) ( )? mr. chayes. we started with (a) ( ) in the memorandum because there was likely to be a better case under (a) ( ) than almost anything else. the reason why one might argue more about (a) ( ) than anything else, is that there were written statements by oswald saying, "i renounce my citizenship" or words to that effect, and they were made in writing, and in a way that appeared to be intended as a formal, considered statement. but (a) ( ) says that a u.s. national may lose his nationality by "making a formal renunciation of nationality before a diplomatic or consular officer of the united states in a foreign state, in such form as may be prescribed by the secretary of state." now, even if you resolve every other issue in favor of expatriation, that is if you say handing a fellow a letter of the kind that oswald handed to mr. snyder was a formal renunciation of nationality before a diplomatic or consular officer, it was clearly not on the form prescribed by the secretary of state, and the courts have been very precise on that. representative ford. do you have those citations, mr. chayes? mr. chayes. the form we have here, it is called "form of oath of renunciation." it is volume of the foreign affairs manual of the department of state, and it is an exhibit to section . , and you can see here that it is a fully prescribed form. mr. coleman. do you have any case where (a) it was a written statement, and (b) it was given to a consul and yet because it was not on the form prescribed by the secretary of state, a court has held that it was not a renunciation? mr. chayes. no case has been decided under (a) ( ), but the general line of cases under is to resolve every doubt in favor of the citizen, and there are innumerable citations to that effect. i feel quite confident when the statute itself prescribes that the form should be one established by the secretary, and where the secretary has in fact prescribed such a form, that one cannot bring himself under (a) ( ) unless he uses the form. mr. coleman. wouldn't the two letters that oswald delivered be considered as making an affirmation or other formal declaration of allegiance to a foreign state or political subdivision thereof, which is an act under (a) ( )? mr. chayes. that would be (a) ( ), and we consider that at page of the memorandum, subsection c. mr. dulles. are we through with all pages up to ? mr. chayes. no; we probably go back to . but there we do have cases, and the cases are clear that the oath or affirmation or formal declaration under section (a) ( ) has to be to an official entitled to receive it on behalf of the foreign state, and even then the courts have been very sticky about holding people to that. for example, there is one case where a dual national, a philippine and u.s. national, made an oath of allegiance to the philippines in the usual form in order to get a philippine passport, and it was asserted that this was an expatriating act, and the court held no, it wasn't. in re _bautista's petition_, f. supp. (d.c. guam, ). there is a case where a man took an oath of allegiance to the british crown, but the recipient of the oath was his employer, private employer, and it was held that that was not the kind of oath that is involved. in _the matter of l._ i. & n. dec. (b.i.a. ). the courts have said that this is a reciprocal relationship in which in order to come under this section, the citizen or the u.s. citizen must offer his allegiance to the foreign state and the foreign state must accept it. mr. dulles. there has to be action on both sides. unilateral action is not enough if the affirmation is not accepted. mr. chayes. that is the way i read the cases. now, of course, if it comes before, if the oath is taken before an official of the foreign state that is authorized to take oaths of allegiance, why then nothing more is needed than that. but making an oath or statement of allegiance to another american or to a private party, whatever his nationality, has been held not to fall within (a)( ). mr. coleman. do you know whether oswald had to make any statement or take any oath when he got employment in the soviet union? mr. chayes. i don't personally, but it may have been inquired into by the consul when oswald came back for a renewal passport. i think the record shows that it was concluded that there was no evidence that he became a naturalized soviet citizen, and so far as i know, there is no evidence that he in any other way took an oath of allegiance of the kind that would bring him under (a)( ). even if he had had to do so, for example, in connection with his employment, there are cases which may say that that is not a voluntary oath if it is done out of economic necessity and it will not, therefore, serve to expatriate. see _insogna_ v. _dulles_, f. supp. (d.d.c. ); _stipa_ v. _dulles_, f. d ( d cir. ); and _bruni_ v. _dulles_, f. d (d.c. cir. ). in at least one other case, _mendelsohn_ v. _dulles_, f. d (d.d.c. ), a court held that the plaintiff had not expatriated himself by residing abroad for more than years since he had remained abroad to care for his sick wife, who was too ill to travel. representative ford. i think it would be helpful wherever you say, mr. chayes, there are cases, that the record show the citation of the cases. mr. chayes. i think most of the cases that i am relying on are cited in the memorandum to which i am referring. but there may be others that i am recollecting. if i could have a chance to review the transcript, i will submit exact citations in each case. representative ford. i think that would be very helpful. otherwise i think the record is---- mr. chayes. yes; i agree. representative ford. is not clear or not complete, and as far as i am concerned, and i think the commission would agree, that you should review the transcript to supply those citations for those particular categories of cases. mr. chayes. i will be very glad to do so, mr. chairman. mr. coleman. now do you want to address yourself to section (a) ( )? mr. chayes. well (a) ( ) is obtaining naturalization, and there just wasn't any indication, there wasn't any evidence at all that he had become a naturalized soviet citizen. we knew that he applied for naturalization, but even on the basis of his soviet documents he had not been given soviet citizenship. mr. coleman. i take it your testimony is that after reviewing all of the files, your office has determined that oswald committed no act which would justify the department stating that he had expatriated himself. mr. chayes. i think that is right. i more than think that is right. i know that is right. we have reached the conclusion, and i personally have reached the conclusion, that oswald's actions in the soviet union, although he may very well have wanted to expatriate himself at one time or another, did not succeed in doing that. i think for the record i would like to read here a citation from the case of _stipa_ v. _dulles_ decided by the court of appeals for the third circuit--the citation is at f. d. --which gives some idea of the general attitude with which the courts approach expatriation cases. in that case it said: the burden of proving expatriation generally is upon the defendant who affirmatively alleges it [that is the secretary of state] and the burden is a heavy one. factual doubts are to be resolved in favor of citizenship. the burden of proof on the government in an expatriation case is like that in denaturalization. the evidence must be clear, unequivocal and convincing. the rule prevailing in denaturalization cases that the facts and the law should be construed as far as is reasonably possible in favor of the citizen equally applies to expatriation cases. american citizenship is not to be lightly taken away. this is the dominating attitude of the courts in all of these cases. we find, for example, that a group of japanese americans, who during the war under the stress of the relocation program, did all of the business of renouncing their citizenship and did it in the most formal kind of a way, and it was clear that they had done it and they had meant to do it and all that sort of thing. when after the war they raised the question of their citizenship status, the court held well, that the emotional stress and strain of the relocation and shock under those circumstances was such that this shouldn't be held against them. _acheson_ v. _murakami_, f. d ( th cir. ). so the courts have gone very, very far to uphold the notion that american citizenship is not to be lightly taken away, see e.g., _schneiderman_ v. _united states_, u.s. ( ), and that has affected not only our legal judgment in the particular case, but our general policy which you have heard explained by mr. snyder and mr. mcvickar. mr. coleman. could you describe for the record what the policy of the department is when a person appears at a foreign embassy and attempts to expatriate himself? mr. dulles. before you answer that question may i ask a question. in your memorandum here, relating to the paragraph we have been discussing, there is a footnote that interests me. it says: "after the assassination of president kennedy, an official of the soviet ministry of foreign affairs stated to an officer of the american embassy in moscow that soviet authorities had considered oswald's application for soviet citizenship but had decided not to approve it because oswald seemed unstable." mr. coleman, do we have that in our files? mr. coleman. yes. mr. chayes. yes; i think also the american embassy officer was ambassador kohler? mr. coleman. it was stoessel. mr. chayes. oh, stoessel, deputy chief of mission. mr. dulles. the statement was made to him by an official of the foreign office? mr. chayes. i think he is identified in the telegram; yes. mr. coleman. also when the secretary appears tomorrow i think he will impart some information on what the soviet ambassador told him as to the reason why they refused oswald citizenship. mr. dulles. yes; i would rather like to put that in the record unless there is some similar reason to the one we had before. mr. chayes. could i go off the record for just a moment? (discussion off the record.) (mr. coleman's last question was read back by the reporter.) mr. chayes. well, i think the basic policy of the department is a recognition that this is a very grave and serious and irrevocable act that can affect a person's life and does affect a person's life very fundamentally. and so the policy of the department is to make sure that the person making the renunciation does so with full recognition of the consequences of his action, of the fact that it is a very grave act, and in such a way as to make sure that it is a completely voluntary act in every sense of the word, so that it can be shown not only to be free of any physical duress or coercion, but mental stress and things of that kind. this is not only true because of the recognition of what it means to the individual, but also because in order to support the denaturalization in court. you have got to be able to show those things under the standards and the general attitude that i have set forth. mr. coleman. i take it your testimony is that you reviewed all of the files and looked at all of the memorandums or had it done under your direction, and your judgment is that oswald had not expatriated himself in ? mr. chayes. yes; on the basis of the record that i have in the file. mr. coleman. and with that determination made, then i take it that when oswald appeared at the embassy in july , and requested that his passport be returned to him, that mr. snyder had no other alternative but to return his passport to him, is that correct? mr. chayes. in the absence of any other disqualifying ground, and there wasn't any other disqualifying ground either known to the embassy in moscow or available in our own files back home. if mr. oswald was a citizen, and was not disqualified in some other way, he was entitled to the passport. mr. dulles. do you know from studying the records, or otherwise, whether when that request was made by lee harvey oswald, it was referred back to the state department and reconsidered again? mr. chayes. oh, yes; it was. in the first place, the expatriation issue wasn't decided until that time. that is the expatriation issue was open until he came back in and applied for the passport. the expatriation issue was decided in the first instance by the officer in the field, and then the tentative decision was reported by him back to the passport office and the expatriation decision was reviewed in the passport office at that time. the file was reviewed for other possible disqualifications, and an instruction went out with respect to the return of the passport. the field was instructed that when the passport was returned, it should be marked for travel to the united states only, and then when the passport was finally renewed some weeks later, that was also pursuant to a departmental instruction. mr. dulles. was that reviewed in your office at that time? mr. chayes. no; it wasn't. mr. dulles. shouldn't it have been? mr. chayes. i don't think so, mr. dulles. the passport office has to make nationality determinations on thousands and thousands of people. mr. dulles. but this is a legal question, isn't it? mr. chayes. but they have adjudicators in the passport office. mr. dulles. they have legal officers. mr. chayes. thirty lawyers or something. mr. dulles. they have? mr. chayes. and two lawyers reviewed this case. there are just thousands of nationality or loss of nationality determinations. mr. dulles. and those are generally all settled in the passport office? mr. chayes. in almost every case. mr. dulles. some of them may be presented to your office. mr. chayes. where they present especially difficult questions of law or general policy of administration; yes, sir. mr. dulles. and this wasn't considered as a case involving particularly difficult questions of law? mr. chayes. no; i don't think it did then or does now. representative ford. did the people in washington who made this review know that on this one particular form, i don't recall the commission exhibit, that oswald said, "i have done this, that," one or the other? mr. chayes. they would have had that before them. i think that is the form that was sent back to the department, the one that had "have not" crossed out and "have" was left standing. so they made the determination on the basis of a form---- mr. coleman. commission exhibit no. , for the record. mr. chayes. commission exhibit no. , in which oswald indicated that he had done one of these acts, and then supplied a supplementary questionnaire explaining in fuller detail what he meant. mr. dulles. do you happen to know who the lawyers were who did this in the passport office, and whether they would be available if we should want to see them? mr. chayes. i think they are on the list to testify. mr. coleman. mr. chayes, those lawyers didn't review the file in . they are the two lawyers that reviewed it in october . mr. chayes. i see. well, i can find out if we haven't supplied the names already. mr. coleman. i don't think any lawyer reviewed the file in . mr. chayes. well, an adjudicator did. mr. coleman. it was miss waterman. she is not a lawyer. mr. chayes. i see. mr. dulles. she is coming before us? mr. coleman. yes. mr. chayes. she is a passport adjudicator. mr. coleman. now, were have marked as commission exhibit no. an operations memorandum from the department of state to the embassy in moscow, dated march , , which stated that: "an appropriate notice had been placed in the lookout card section of the passport office in the event that mr. oswald should apply for documentation at a point outside the soviet union." i would like to show you this commission exhibit and ask you are you familiar with that memorandum? mr. chayes. i have seen this, but only since the assassination in my general review of the files. mr. coleman. now, has your office made a check to determine whether a lookout card was prepared? mr. chayes. yes; mr. coleman. in connection with the preparation of this memorandum, and the responses to the supplemental questions for the commission, we did examine the question of whether a lookout card was prepared. i should say again that the matter of preparation of lookout cards is not under my jurisdiction, and my knowledge of this is only from a subsequent investigation. mr. coleman. your examination revealed that a lookout card actually was never prepared, is that correct? mr. chayes. i think we have to say that our examination does not reveal that a lookout card was prepared, and that on balance examining all the relevant considerations, it appears more likely than not that no lookout card was prepared. representative ford. but there was none in the file. mr. chayes. there was none in the file, but there wouldn't have been anyway, because this lookout card was ordered prepared because there was a doubt as to whether oswald had expatriated himself. once that doubt had been removed by an adjudication as it was in july of , the lookout card based on the possibility of expatriation would have been removed. it might be worth a moment if i could give you some general picture of the lookout card system. miss knight will be able to testify in much greater detail than i as to the actual operating---- mr. dulles. so that when came around and there was a further application for a passport, there was no lookout card then found in ? mr. chayes. nor should there have been. mr. dulles. that is the issue under your procedure. mr. coleman. let me refer back to when you determined or the department determined to renew the passport. now, as i understand it, there was a search made of the lookout card section, and the records that we have reveal that no lookout card was found. mr. dulles. even in ? mr. coleman. in . mr. chayes. i don't think that that can be said that categorically. i think it appears probable that there was no lookout card in at that time, yes; that is correct. mr. dulles. but in all of these facts with regard to oswald were before you, were they not? mr. chayes. if i could just give some notion of what this system is like. mr. dulles. yes. mr. chayes. the lookout card is an ibm card, an ordinary ibm card, and it should be prepared on anyone as to whom some evidence of disqualification for a passport exists in our files. if the system worked perfectly, anytime there was an unresolved question about the eligibility of a person for a passport---- representative ford. does a defector or an attempted defector fall in that category? mr. chayes. no; the problem here was that this man had attempted to expatriate himself, and said he was going to naturalize himself as a soviet citizen, and if he had done either of those things effectively, he would have disqualified himself for a passport. so there was an unresolved question on the facts known in , or january , whenever it was. and at that point a lookout card should have been prepared for him. then in july of , when he came back in in moscow, and asked for the renewal of his passport, that question of expatriation was then determined, both in moscow and at home, and it was determined in favor of the applicant. so that the outstanding question was then removed, and if the procedures had gone right, the lookout card also, if it had been prepared, would have been taken out of the lookout file and torn up and thrown away. representative ford. don't you keep records of what you put in and what you take out? mr. chayes. yes, the refusal slip which formed the basis on which this memorandum that we are talking about was made. there was a refusal slip which was a direction to the person in the lookout card office to make a lookout card, and also probably whoever made the refusal slip also sent this memorandum to moscow saying that a lookout card had been prepared. if you look at the refusal slip, which is retained in the main passport file of oswald, it doesn't have the notations that it would have had or should have had if a card had been made. so that on the general basis of the evidence, we conclude that it is probable that no card was made. but you can't say that for sure because even if one had been made, it would have been removed when the issue was resolved. representative ford. if it is probable one wasn't made, but there is a possibility, remote as it might be, don't you have some means of recording when a lookout card is removed? mr. chayes. that notation also does not appear. representative ford. so the probability is increased. mr. chayes. that is correct. representative ford. that there was no lookout card ever made and put into the file. mr. chayes. that is correct, sir. all of this is covered in some detail in our response, our written response to the questionnaire, and comes to the same conclusion, and all of these points are enumerated. mr. coleman. there is a commission exhibit no. where mr. chayes under date of may , , addressed himself to these problems. representative ford. is this that which i have here? mr. coleman. yes. representative ford. and that is to be in the record? mr. chayes. yes. mr. coleman. we will give it an exhibit number. (discussion off the record.) mr. coleman. back on the record. i would like to mark as commission exhibit no. a letter from the legal adviser to the department of state to mr. rankin dated may , . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. coleman. i would like to ask the witness whether this letter was prepared under his direction together with the attachments. mr. chayes. yes; the letter and attachments are those which were prepared--i haven't had a chance to examine each right now, but appear to be those which were prepared in my office and under my personal supervision in response to the request of the commission. mr. coleman. in commission exhibit no. you explain the lookout card situation. mr. chayes. yes. mr. coleman. you treat with the question of whether a lookout card was in the state department file on oswald in . mr. chayes. yes, sir; i think it is covered in the answers to questions and . in particular the answer to question shows the evaluation on which we reached the conclusion that it is probable that a lookout card was not prepared. mr. coleman. was there any other occasion as a result of acts by oswald that you felt that a lookout card should have been prepared? mr. chayes. yes. mr. coleman. what were those? mr. chayes. under the procedures of the department, once oswald was given a repatriation loan, as he was on his return to this country in, what was it, may of , a lookout card should have been prepared and should have been maintained in the lookout file during the period when there was an unpaid balance on his repatriation loan, and in that case it appears pretty certainly that no card was prepared. we don't even have in that case a refusal slip indicating a direction to prepare a card. mr. dulles. can you refuse issuance of a passport when there is an unpaid balance due? mr. chayes. i don't know what the courts would say, but a person who accepts a repatriation loan now signs an agreement that he will not apply for a passport until he has paid the loan. at the time that oswald got his loan, the form was a little different, but even then he signed a statement saying that he understood that passport facilities would not be furnished to him while an outstanding balance was---- representative ford. could we have in the record the form that was in existence before and that which is now the form? mr. chayes. i think you do have it in the report. again it is in the answer to question , page of that answer, if you see there it says, "in the promissory note"--it is about the middle of the page--"which he signed for the loan he stated, section . - that 'i further understand and agree that after my repatriation i will not be furnished a passport for travel abroad until my obligation to reimburse the treasurer of the united states is liquidated.'" mr. coleman. you testified that you made a search of the records or you had a search made of the records of the department, and you conclude that no lookout card was ever prepared. mr. chayes. yes; we can't find any evidence that a lookout card might have been prepared. mr. coleman. do you know why one was not prepared? mr. chayes. there could have been more than one reason. it could have been simply a bureaucratic oversight. it could have been that they didn't have date and place of birth information on oswald. because of the possibility of identical names, the practice of the passport office is not to prepare a lookout card on any individual on the basis of his name alone. they need both name and date and place of birth. now, it may have been either that the finance office failed to notify the passport office because it did not have date and place of birth information, or that it did notify the passport office, and because there was no date and place of birth information, the passport office did not make a card. mr. dulles. but the passport office had that information. mr. chayes. the passport office had the date and place of birth information on lee harvey oswald; yes. mr. dulles. but not on marina? mr. chayes. marina wouldn't have gotten into the passport office at all. she is an alien. but they didn't know whether the lee harvey oswald, or they might not have known that the lee harvey oswald that came down from the finance office, if indeed it did come down, was the same lee harvey oswald as to whom they had date and place of birth information. that is the problem. the problem is avoiding the difficulties that would arise if duplicated names put you into the lookout card system. mr. coleman. once the loan had been repaid, would the card have been taken out? mr. chayes. yes. mr. coleman. so, therefore, by the time he applied for the passport in june , the loan had been paid so there wouldn't have been a lookout card in any event. mr. chayes. that is correct. the lookout card would have been removed, had it been made, on january , , months before the passport application, when oswald finally paid the last of his outstanding loan balance. mr. dulles. can i ask a question there? is the lookout card then only prepared in those cases where a passport should be refused irrespective of the moral turpitude or idiosyncracies or whatever else may be the case with regard to the individual? mr. chayes. there are three cases in which a lookout card is prepared. one is the case you have just mentioned, where a passport should be refused or there is evidence that might warrant refusal that you have to look into further. the second is if you are a very important person and your passport is supposed to be given specially expeditious treatment. and the third, if another agency, for example, your old agency or the fbi or any other agency has asked the department to inform them in case of the passport application by a particular individual, a lookout card will be made. so those are the three categories. now, the first category is by far the biggest. there are , lookout cards, and by far the overwhelming majority of those is in the first category, that is people as to whom there is evidence which would warrant a determination that they should not be issued a passport. mr. coleman. does the state department have any regulations which set forth the circumstances under which they will refuse a person a passport? mr. chayes. yes; we have regulations which are set forth, a copy of which is attached to question . they appear in volume of the federal register. mr. coleman. volume , title ? mr. chayes. yes; title , part of the code of federal regulations. mr. coleman. i take it then that in . you have the regulation which says that you can deny a passport to a member of a communist organization, is that correct? mr. chayes. well, i think you have to be careful how you read that. it is a member of a communist organization registered or required to be registered under section of the subversive activities control act of , as amended. this . is a regulation which implements section of the subversive activities control act, which denies passports to members of organizations required to register. the only such organization so far against which a final order of registration is outstanding, is the communist party of the united states. so, not only technically but actually, membership in the communist party of the soviet union would not bring you within this paragraph of the regulation. mr. dulles. or the communist party of any other country. mr. chayes. of any other country. mr. coleman. is there any other regulation, which the state department has, dealing with the circumstances under which they can refuse to issue a passport? mr. chayes. the other regulation covering substantive grounds of refusal is . . mr. coleman. could you read into the record the regulation? mr. chayes. yes; the regulation says: "in order to promote"---- well, it is entitled "limitations on issuance of passports to certain other persons." it reads: "in order to promote and safeguard the interests of the united states, passport facilities except for direct and immediate return to the united states shall be refused to a person when it appears to the satisfaction of the secretary of state that the person's activities abroad would (a) violate the laws of the united states, and (b) be prejudicial to the orderly conduct of foreign relations, or (c) otherwise be prejudicial to the interests of the united states." mr. coleman. in , on june when oswald applied for a passport, he was issued the passport within hours after the application; is that correct? mr. chayes. yes, sir. mr. coleman. is there any record in the department that anyone ever examined oswald's file to make a determination of whether he should have been issued a passport? mr. chayes. in ? mr. coleman. . mr. chayes. in the passport was issued on the basis of a simple check of the lookout file under the normal procedures of the department. what happens is that when a field office, in this case it was the new orleans field office, get a series of passport applications, they telex the names of the applicants and their place and date of birth to the department, and the department makes a name check through the lookout card file. that is all. and if there isn't a lookout card in the lookout card file, they authorize the issuance of the passport by the field agency. the field agency has to make a determination of citizenship, of course. but no further action is taken in washington unless for some reason or other the field agency would wish to send a particular case forward. mr. coleman. since there was no lookout card, i take it we can assume that the june , , passport was issued without any---- mr. chayes. without any examination. mr. coleman. without any consultation of the files on oswald---- mr. chayes. exactly. mr. coleman. that were in the department. mr. chayes. i am confident that that was the case. mr. dulles. may i ask whether there are any lookout cards to your knowledge that are filed under that third section there? mr. chayes. "violate the laws or be prejudical"? mr. dulles. that is it; yes. mr. chayes. well, i don't know for a fact that there are, but if we would make such a determination with respect to some person or group, i suppose lookout cards would be prepared for such a group. and i would go further and say that probably the authority, you don't need authority to do it, but the theory of preparing cards for defectors which we are now doing under the schwartz to knight memorandum, that we referred to a moment ago, is that it is possible that a defector, upon examination of his file, will be shown to fall within one of these categories. mr. dulles. would oswald now be considered a defector, or should he have been at that time if the regulations that you now have in effect were then in effect? mr. chayes. if we had the instruction in the schwartz to knight memorandum, yes; there would have been a lookout card on oswald. mr. coleman. mr. chayes, assuming on june , , a person in the passport office had examined all of the files that the state department had on oswald from through june , , in your opinion could the department have refused oswald a passport based upon section . of the regulation? mr. chayes. in my opinion, they could not. they could not have refused a passport based on the information in the oswald file. representative ford. if that is true, how could you have a lookout card now that would have resulted, that would result in a passport being refused? mr. chayes. i don't think we could. what the lookout card would do would be to refer you to the file. you would look into the file. you might then want some further investigation as to this fellow. you might, having seen that you were dealing with this kind of a person, want to examine him more fully on his travel plans and so on and so on. that further investigation might turn up some information which would warrant a determination under one of these subsections. but if it turned up nothing but what was in the file, you would have to issue the passport, in my judgment. mr. dulles. that is, lookout cards might well be put in in borderline cases, but when you came to consider the case on all the facts, you would decide in favor of issuance of the passport rather than refusal? mr. chayes. yes; that is the same thing with the expatriation card which should have been made out for oswald in . it should have been made out because there was a possibility that he had expatriated himself. but then when he came to apply for the passport, all the lookout card would do is say, "investigate this carefully and determine this issue." and as you say, when you got all the facts as in the expatriation situation, you might determine that he had not expatriated himself. representative ford. at least in this case if there had been a lookout card, there would have been a delay. mr. chayes. yes. representative ford. that is the very least that would have happened. mr. chayes. there would have been a delay of a couple of days probably. representative ford. and in this case time might have been important. mr. chayes. no; if you are talking about this case as it actually happened, time wasn't important at all. he applied for the passport in june of . he got it in june of , and he made no effort to use the passport, nor did he have any occasion to use it, until he died. mr. dulles. it would have been a blessing for us if he had used it, say, in the sense that the assassination might not have taken place, if he had taken the passport and gone to china as he may have contemplated. mr. coleman. mr. chayes, is it your testimony that when the department knows a person went abroad in , attempted to defect to the soviet union, stated that he had information on radar which he was going to turn over to the soviet, and the difficulty that we had to get him back, it is your opinion that it would not be prejudicial to the interests of the united states for him to be given a passport to go abroad the second time? mr. chayes. well, i think that is correct without knowing any more about what he intended to do this time on his travels abroad. you have got to remember that the discretion that the secretary can exercise under . , is as the supreme court said in the kent case, a limited discretion, although it is phrased in very broad terms. for example, we have people who are going abroad all the time and making the nastiest kinds of speeches about the united states, or who go abroad for political activity that is completely at odds with the policy of the united states, and may be even directed against our policy. but we could not deny a passport on the grounds of political activities, political associations, speech, things of that kind. so the kent case says, as i read it and as most others do. i think you have to, in order to apply this section, there are some fairly regular categories, fugitives from justice. mr. dulles. just one question. if there had been a lookout card in, and then you would reconsider the case in june , when he applied, would you not then normally have notified the fbi and the cia that here was a returned defector? mr. chayes. no. mr. dulles. who was going abroad again? mr. chayes. no; not unless the fbi and the cia had asked us to notify them. however, what we might have done would be to use fbi facilities to make a further investigation of the situation. that is possible. mr. coleman. mr. chayes informed us prior to the commencement of his testimony that he would have to leave at p.m., but would return tomorrow morning to complete it. he will now be excused. thank you, sir. mr. dulles. thank you very much. testimony of john a. mcvickar resumed mr. coleman. do you recall, mr. mcvickar, we were trying to determine whether mrs. oswald came into the embassy in july or in august , and you said that if you had an opportunity to look at the state department file that you might find something which would aid you in recollecting. have you had such opportunity. mr. mcvickar. yes; i have. i observe two items in here. there is a despatch prepared by mr. snyder which says that mrs. oswald was expected to come in very shortly. this despatch was prepared i believe on the same day that mr. oswald was in the office. mr. coleman. is that despatch dated july , ? mr. mcvickar. yes. mr. coleman. the record shows it is commission exhibit no. . mr. mcvickar. and the item is on page , and it says, "he is attempting to arrange for his wife to join him in moscow so she can appear at the embassy for a visa interview in the next day or two." and then there is a later despatch dated october , , which encloses the text of certain letters addressed to the embassy by oswald, and one of them is a letter dated july , . mr. dulles. moscow? mr. mcvickar. no; apparently from minsk after he had returned. mr. dulles. oh, minsk. mr. mcvickar. and it says that; "while we were still in moscow the foreman at her place of work was notified that she and i went to the embassy for the purpose of visas." well now, it seems clear that she did in fact go to the embassy in early july, and that this interview that i had with her undoubtedly took place then approximately the th or th of july. mr. coleman. wouldn't you say that it took place, sir, on the th of july? mr. mcvickar. it probably took place then on the th of july, except that this despatch here, which was dated the th, said that she was coming in, in the next couple of days. no, no; this says that he appeared at the embassy on july , and so this was probably prepared on the th of july. i would say then it must have taken place on the th of july. mr. coleman. it is your testimony, therefore, that commission exhibit no. , which is the petition to classify status of alien for issuance of immigrant visa, was prepared on july , ? mr. mcvickar. oh, yes; that is correct. mr. coleman. that was probably the day that marina came into the embassy? mr. mcvickar. probably the day she came into the embassy, and probably the day on which i interviewed her. mr. coleman. and, therefore, the notes, commission exhibit no. , were apparently made on july ? mr. mcvickar. yes; apparently made then on july . they formed the basis of this later communication of august , and i now think that the reason that this was not done sooner, was because it was not an urgent matter, because they had not yet received exit visas, and we were in the process of processing cases that had received exit visas, and were ready to go, and no one could tell when they might get soviet exit visas. mr. dulles. which is the chicken and which is the egg here? i mean, do you get your exit visas before you know whether you are going to get into the country of destination, or do you get your permission to go to the united states before you get your exit visa? mr. mcvickar. in an ordinary country you would apply for your american visa, and then apply for your exit visa, or permission to depart from the country, after you had your american visa. but in this case, in the soviet union, it was reversed because it was so difficult to get exit visas. the american government never bothered with any of its papers other than to just take record of the interest of the people, until after they had received permission to depart from the soviet union at which point we processed their papers expeditiously. but usually there was very little done in the american documentation until after they had received an exit visa from the soviet union. mr. coleman. sir, you then on august , , prepared the operations memorandum which has been given commission exhibit no. ; is that correct? mr. mcvickar. yes; that was the date of the memorandum. mr. coleman. now in that memorandum you indicated that marina had been in to see you; is that correct? mr. mcvickar. the memorandum does not specifically state that. it merely gives data necessary to the determination by the department of state of the legal status of this individual. mr. coleman. now as the wife of an american citizen, i take it marina would have the right to come into the country under a nonquota status? mr. mcvickar. yes; that is correct. mr. coleman. what were the sanctions imposed by section (g), which you referred to in the memorandum? mr. mcvickar. there is a provision (g), section (g) of the immigration and nationality act, which provides that countries which--and i am just taking this from memory now--which do not accept either at all or readily, i suppose, deportees from the united states may not be granted, the nationals of those countries may not be granted immigration visas. there is, however, a procedure for waiving these sanctions in individual cases, and as i recall the regulations, there was a procedure for waiving these sanctions in the cases of relatives of american citizens, and in the case of soviet citizens who wanted to go to the united states. so soviet citizens who were relatives of american citizens could receive a waiver of these sanctions. is that clear? mr. coleman. if the sanctions had not been waived, what would be the effect of refusing to waive the sanctions? mr. mcvickar. if the sanction was not waived, the effect would be a denial, in effect, by the immigration and naturalization service of the department of justice, of authority to issue the visa. the exact legality of this i am not sure, but i know that we couldn't issue the immigration visa because she would not be admitted at the port of entry. mr. coleman. would that mean that marina could not have come to the united states? mr. mcvickar. it would mean that she could not enter the united states, but it would not mean that she could not depart from the soviet union if she had a soviet visa. and, presumably, maybe at some later time this---- mr. coleman. couldn't she have gone to say, brussels, for example, in belgium? mr. mcvickar. and then applied for a visa there? this may be. mr. coleman. did you have any discussions when you were in the embassy as to whether if the sanctions imposed by section (g) were not waived, that you should send her to brussels and let her get a visa there? mr. mcvickar. i think that the record shows that there were such discussions, but they did not take place during the time i was there. mr. coleman. when did you leave? mr. mcvickar. i left on september the st of . mr. coleman. in this memorandum which is commission exhibit no. , you indicated that you thought a favorable advisory opinion and approval of the petition is recommended, together with a waiver of the sanctions. mr. mcvickar. imposed by section (g) of the act, yes. this was a routine request which would have been made in any similar case using almost exactly that type of language. in short, this was the two actions that we had to receive from washington in order to be in a position to issue this visa. mr. coleman. the first action to get the petition granted, that depended upon whether she was ineligible, because she belonged to a communist organization, didn't it? mr. mcvickar. yes; that is exactly right. mr. coleman. as to that in your memorandum you indicated that since she belonged to the soviet trade union for medical workers, because she had to belong to that to get a job, that you would recommend that the membership be considered involuntary. mr. mcvickar. yes. mr. coleman. under section (a)( )(i) of the act? mr. mcvickar. yes; that is correct. mr. coleman. is it the general practice to indicate that such membership is involuntary when it is connected with employment? mr. mcvickar. yes; there are instructions from the department giving guidance to officers in general terms, that indicate that membership in mass organizations, such as a membership in a trade union, in connection with one's work, that this membership is ordinarily considered to be involuntary, may be considered involuntary. however, the instructions are also that all of these cases must be referred to washington with the facts for a determination to be made, and, of course, it might well be that under some unusual circumstances if there was some indication of voluntariness, that, you know, such a membership would render the person excludable. mr. coleman. now you referred to department instructions. are those instructions found in the confidential appendix, appendix a to the visa regulations of the department in cfr . a note , last issued on december , ? mr. mcvickar. yes; i believe so. mr. coleman. would you be kind enough to read into the record the instruction referred to? mr. mcvickar. i am reading here from the department of state's report to the commission, and it cites the text of that. do you wish me to read it over? mr. coleman. yes. mr. mcvickar. all right, it says this looks like it is "note . . membership in mass organizations rank and file membership in proscribed mass organizations, in communist and communist controlled countries may in general, if police repression or political or economic discrimination is or was the coercive factor bringing about such membership, be considered involuntary within the meaning of section (a) i(i) of the act unless the alien actively participated in the organization's activities or joined or remained connected with it because of political or ideological conviction. when an alien is refused a visa because of voluntary membership in a proscribed organization of this type the report submitted to the department pursuant to appendix a cfr . on note should show the circumstances leading to the decision." i should note that the text of that is confidential, as a part of confidential appendix a. mr. coleman. after you interviewed marina and took the facts, that you determined that her membership in the soviet trade union for medical workers was involuntary? mr. mcvickar. it appeared to be involuntary. mr. coleman. suppose marina had told you that she was a member of the komsomol, what would you have done then? mr. mcvickar. that comes under a more complicated type of instruction. the membership in the komsomol may be found to be involuntary and is on occasion found involuntary. but you have to investigate more carefully under the regulations into the nature of the membership, because whereas if a person is a member, works in a factory, everybody in the factory belongs to the trade union. but if you are going to the university, not everybody is a member of the komsomol, although a high percentage of them are. if you are going to say high school, why their membership in the komsomol is even more in the nature of a minority, and so i had experience in this same matter considering visas for a number of different wives of american citizens, and when the komsomol was involved, why the results varied considerably. in some cases it was found that membership in the komsomol was completely routine and merely because the people really were hoping to get a decent education and a good job and didn't participate in it actively. in another case i recall, particularly a girl who had been one of the leaders in the komsomol, and this was clearly beyond the definition of involuntary, and this was part of, was a consideration which entered into the denial of her visa in washington. representative ford. in that case, the latter one, there was a denial? mr. mcvickar. there was a denial, yes, but this was because--and it is a difficult thing to be in a position to say that somebody's wife shouldn't go with him to the states, but this was the law and the question was looked into with a great deal of detail, and based largely upon this particular other person's statements in a number of interviews, why it is clear, the facts. mr. coleman. sir, after the memorandum of august , , which is commission exhibit no. , did you have anything else to do with lee oswald or his wife marina? mr. mcvickar. no; i don't think so, because i left almost immediately afterward, and i had nothing more to do with the case. mr. coleman. when you made the decision: ( ) that marina's petition for immigration should be granted, and ( ) recommended that there should be a waiver of the sanction provided by section (g), did anyone tell you or request that you make this decision? mr. mcvickar. now one thing. i want to be sure we are accurate on my function. i was merely recommending these things. i was not making a decision. i was recommending a favorable advisory opinion from the security point of view from the department of state. i was recommending the approval of the visa petition to grant her the status under the quota system of the wife of an american citizen, and i was recommending that the immigration service waive the sanctions imposed by (g), principally because she was the wife of an american citizen. but this was my responsibility to make these recommendations, and i did so of my own free will as the officer-in-charge of this particular aspect of the case. mr. coleman. no one called you and asked you to do it? mr. mcvickar. no, no; it was my responsibility to look into the matter and make the recommendation and i did. mr. coleman. and did you have any other facts in your possession or in your knowledge other than those which were set forth in the memorandum dated august , , concerning whether marina was eligible for admission as a nonquota immigrant? mr. mcvickar. no; as far as i know the facts are as stated right there, and these facts were obtained from here on the basis of an interview with her, a personal interview. mr. coleman. i have no other questions. representative ford. mr. mcvickar, in your memorandum dated april , , in the first paragraph you say: "although i now regret that i made no notes on this even then unusual case, the following points seem to me to lend weight to my suggestion especially considering the youth and relative inexperience of the subject." was the oswald case in october of a then unusual case? mr. mcvickar. yes; because we had had only a few people in the category of defectors, and at that point i think we might have had--this was the third one that had come up since i had been there, and the other two were much less aggressive, much less determined, and much less self-possessed people. one of them turned out to be suffering from various mental diseases, and another one was a very weak individual who had been sort of lead astray by some russian female agent, but this was a man who had, you know, he came directly and walked in, slammed his passport down. it was an unusual case from the very beginning. representative ford. in the next paragraph you discuss in this memorandum the entry of oswald into the soviet union through helsinki. is there any other port of entry into the soviet union that is comparable to helsinki in the context you are using it here? mr. mcvickar. well, yes; there are a number of other ways to get into the soviet union. i would think by far the most used one is to arrive at the airport in moscow. and then frequently used by people who have not very much means, would be to come by rail from western europe by way of warsaw and the port of entry in that case is brest. one could also come by sea into odessa. it would not be unusual to arrive by air in leningrad. representative ford. but in this memorandum in that paragraph you say, "he would have to have known the not too obvious fact that helsinki is an unusual and relatively uncomplicated point of entry to the soviet union (one that the soviets might well choose, for example, if arranging the passage themselves)." mr. mcvickar. yes. representative ford. is there any other port such as helsinki, in the context you are using it? mr. mcvickar. i am sorry, i hope i haven't confused the record. of course, when you are actually talking about a port of entry, helsinki is not a port of entry. it is a point of departure for the soviet union, and you could come in and land at the moscow airport from helsinki. what i think--what i was referring to is a point of departure for the soviet union which would then be more likely to be copenhagen, for example, or warsaw or vienna. helsinki is a frequently used one, but it is way up north and it is---- mr. dulles. wasn't he traveling by boat, however? mr. mcvickar. he traveled by boat to helsinki. mr. dulles. that is where the boat went? mr. mcvickar. that is right. mr. coleman. no; he traveled by boat to le havre, france. he then went by boat from there to london but then he flew by plane from london to helsinki. mr. dulles. he did? he went by plane? mr. mcvickar. i didn't realize that. but he flew from london to helsinki and then entered the soviet union from helsinki. mr. coleman. by rail? mr. mcvickar. by rail. representative ford. what is so unusual and relatively uncomplicated about helsinki as a point of entry? mr. mcvickar. well, i was thinking of this in the terms of a person who didn't know the situation and wasn't very familiar with it, and i think that it might be more logical to try to fly into the soviet union from copenhagen or directly from london. it might be more logical for some people to take the train into the soviet union through warsaw. mr. dulles. where did he get his visa? mr. mcvickar. he got his visa in helsinki. mr. dulles. that is it then. i think that is the answer to the thing. it is much easier to get a visa right there than go through the mill of a great place like london or paris or any of the other places. representative ford. so it is the ease of getting the visa. mr. dulles. i would think the ease of getting a visa there. if you could get it at all, you could get somebody to pay some attention to you. there, in london, you would have a much bigger problem, i think. mr. mcvickar. and it may be that the soviet embassy in helsinki is accustomed to processing unusual cases or something. but my point is that if a completely ignorant person might well apply for his visa in paris or in london, and then go in from there, but you have to know a little bit about what you are doing if you go straight to helsinki and get your visa there. i am afraid this is a rather marginal point, but i thought it was worth mentioning. mr. dulles. had he made any attempt to get a visa or to announce that he was going to try to pick up a visa in helsinki? do you know if he took any steps at all with the soviet authorities prior to arriving in helsinki? mr. mcvickar. this i do not know what is known about that. it did seem to me that he moved very quickly, if he could arrive in helsinki and then get his visa and go right into the soviet union. mr. coleman. sir, the fact that he didn't go by ship from new orleans to helsinki but he went to le havre by boat and then to london but then flew to helsinki, doesn't that change somewhat the thrust of your paragraph? mr. mcvickar. yes; i must say that it explains a little bit more clearly how he was able to get all this done in such a relatively short time, because he would have saved himself, oh, at least a week of time, i should think, if he got off in france and flew from there on. mr. dulles. can any ordinary tourist, unknown tourist, just go to helsinki and get a visa there and pick it up and get into russia? mr. mcvickar. yes; i think an ordinary tourist can go to any one of their embassies and get a visa. mr. dulles. do they have authority, do you know, to do that without referring back to moscow? mr. mcvickar. yes; for tourist visas they do, and in fact they can go and get their visas at travel agencies. but it still takes a little time ordinarily to arrange it. representative ford. on page of your memorandum of april , , paragraph , you say: "my impression was that in the soviet union such a privilege would not have been usual." you are referring, of course, to the allegations made that he had been a member of a rifle club and did target shooting? mr. mcvickar. yes. representative ford. why do you have that impression? mr. mcvickar. well, i was thinking particularly in terms of his having been a foreigner, and of course strictly on the assumption that he did belong to a rifle club, and i don't know that to be a fact. representative ford. let's assume the fact that he did. mr. mcvickar. yes; and this again is only based on the impression that i gathered from such contacts as i may have had while i was there, and i had the impression that sporting activities in the soviet union are organized as a part of the state effort, and that there might have to be some good purpose to be served by the state for a person to participate in such a club. and that the usual purpose would be international competition, and that people who are sportsmen in the soviet union generally do this, they are given time off from their work to do this kind of thing. i have heard it said that sometimes they are really almost full time engaged in whatever the sport is, and that they only have another job to be able to say that they have amateur status. representative ford. have you ever been to minsk? mr. mcvickar. i have only passed through minsk on the train several times going back and forth to poland. representative ford. do you feel from your experiences in the soviet union it was unusual for oswald to be sent or permitted to go to minsk? mr. mcvickar. no; i don't think that is particularly unusual. i have a feeling that what they were trying to do probably was, at least a part of what they were trying to do, was to take advantage of his competence and knowledge in the electronic field, and so they probably sent him to a place where they would have technicians qualified to learn from him. the same thing was done in the case of the immediately previous defector, mr. webster, who was a glass expert--what do they call that kind of glass, foam glass? no, fiber glass. at any rate, he was employed at the fair that we had in the soviet union in the summer of , and he more or less defected and he was sent to a glass factory, to work at a glass factory in leningrad, and it was logical for them to send him there because he could do that kind of work and he could teach them something about how it was done in the united states. representative ford. do you know of any special kind of schools that might be in minsk, any particular schools that they might send a person like oswald to? mr. mcvickar. i only had the impression without being sure of my facts, that he went to a factory where they manufactured electronic equipment. i don't know of any particular school that he might have been going to. mr. dulles. i want to straighten out if i can this question of the delay in the issuance of an exit visa for mrs. oswald. representative ford. mr. dulles, i do have to leave. would you take over and preside as chairman. mr. dulles. i want to raise this question. now the record here in this memorandum indicates that the exit visa to marina was issued at least months before the state department gave the entry permit. it seems to me to be contrary to the testimony we have previously had, because in a letter dated march --what is this exhibit number? mr. coleman. that is commission document no. . it hasn't been marked as an exhibit yet. mr. dulles. oh, it has not been marked. i don't understand what that number can be. mr. coleman. that is the number, commission document no. . mr. dulles. commission document no. prepared by the state department. it is stated here that on march th the soviet affairs office of the state department advised the visa office of the department of state, and in that it said that the soviet had already issued an exit visa. so marina had the exit visa some time before march , . do you know the date when the exit visa was granted? mr. mcvickar. well, sir, i left in september of , and so i don't know the details of this part of the case, but i think it is consistent because--in fact, i did see in the record that the exit visa was received by the embassy on about january the th, as i recall it. mr. coleman. ? mr. mcvickar. of , and that, therefore, the embassy would then have proceeded with the documentation and the processing, some of which had already been initiated to get them out. mr. dulles. so that months of the delay in their getting out was american regulations? mr. mcvickar. sir, i cannot speak for that part of it because i don't know about that personally. i think it is possible that it may have had something to do with oswald's personal arrangements and that sort of thing, or maybe the soviet--i just don't know. i do know that it was our policy to expedite these operations as quickly as possible after these exit visas took place. mr. dulles. i only know that this exhibit that i referred to states, if i can take your date of january , , for the date that the exit visa was issued to mrs. oswald, the immigration and naturalization service did not agree to the waiver of section (g) until may , . mr. mcvickar. that would have been something that had been going on in washington then, and i just don't know. it may be. i don't know what considerations would have taken place. mr. dulles. so that if we take the time it took them to get their exit visas, you have got to subtract really months for american regulations. i am not criticizing the regulations or the study that was given to it or whether they did or did not grant it. i am just referring to the question of the time, so that in considering the remarkably short time it took these two to get out, months were american regulations, or approximately months, if the january date is correct. no; it would be months, wouldn't it, february, march, april, may, months were american regulations. mr. mcvickar. it does look as though at that time there was a certain amount of consideration. mr. dulles. i am not blaming anyone for giving this the fullest possible consideration. that is all i have. representative ford. do you have some exhibits? mr. coleman. for the record, commission exhibit no. which is the mcvickar memorandum of november , . representative ford. it may be admitted. (the document referred to, previously marked as commission exhibit no. for identification, was received in evidence.) mr. coleman. commission exhibit no. , which is the mcvickar memorandum of november , . representative ford. it may be admitted. (the document referred to, previously marked as commission exhibit no. for identification, was received in evidence.) mr. coleman. commission exhibit no. , which is the note which mr. mcvickar wrote for the oswald file on november , . representative ford. it may be admitted. (the document referred to, previously marked as commission exhibit no. for identification, was received in evidence.) mr. coleman. commission exhibit no. , which is a copy of the telegram from john e. pic to lee oswald in care of the american embassy in moscow. representative ford. it may be admitted. (the document referred to, previously marked as commission exhibit no. for identification, was received in evidence.) mr. coleman. commission exhibit no. , which is the operations memorandum, dated august , . representative ford. it may be admitted. (the document referred to, previously marked as commission exhibit no. for identification, was received in evidence.) mr. coleman. commission exhibit no. , which is a photostatic copy of the handwritten notes which mr. mcvickar made when he interviewed marina oswald in the embassy on july or july , . representative ford. it may be admitted. (the document referred to, previously marked as commission exhibit no. for identification, was received in evidence.) mr. coleman. commission exhibit no. , which is a copy of the petition to classify status of alien for issuance of immigrant visa filled out by lee oswald on behalf of marina oswald in july . representative ford. it may be admitted. (the document referred to, previously marked as commission exhibit no. for identification, was received in evidence.) mr. coleman. and also commission exhibit no. , which is the memorandum of mr. mcvickar, dated april , . representative ford. it may be admitted. (the document referred to, previously marked as commission exhibit no. for identification, was received in evidence.) representative ford. are we going to admit as exhibits this state department answer? mr. coleman. yes; i thought when we finished with mr. chayes then we will offer all the exhibits, and during that time i was going to identify the state department earlier memorandum and the other documents. mr. dulles. all this will then go in. mr. coleman. oh, yes; that is all going in. representative ford. i think it is well to get that one document paraphrased, but i think from what mr. chayes said the other one, there shouldn't be any problem. unless there is something else the commission will recess until o'clock tomorrow morning. (whereupon, at : p.m., the president's commission recessed.) _wednesday, june , _ testimony of abram chayes, bernice waterman, hon. dean rusk, secretary of state, and frances g. knight the president's commission met at : a.m., on june , , at maryland avenue ne., washington, d.c. present were chief justice earl warren, chairman; senator john sherman cooper, representative gerald ford, and allen w. dulles, members. also present were j. lee rankin, general counsel; william t. coleman, jr., assistant counsel; w. david slawson, assistant counsel; thomas ehrlich, special assistant, department of state; leon jaworski, special counsel to the attorney general of texas; robert d. johnson, legal department, passport division, department of state; and charles murray, observer. testimony of abram chayes resumed the chairman. the commission will come to order. mr. chayes is on the stand. mr. coleman, you may continue the examination. mr. coleman. mr. chayes, at the adjournment of your testimony yesterday, we were talking about section . , state department regulations dealing with the issuance of passports. mr. chayes. yes; mr. coleman. mr. coleman. could you tell us the circumstances in which the state department feels it can refuse a passport based upon the regulations? mr. chayes. yes; there are some fairly regular categories of refusals under that section. the first is a violation of a travel restriction. as you know, the section has from time to time placed certain areas out of bounds for travel by u.s. citizens without a specially validated passport. i think, yesterday, mr. dulles read into the record, from the oswald passport, the then applicable area restrictions. and if a person having a passport violates these restrictions, let's say travels to communist china without a specifically validated passport, we regard that as warranting the withdrawal of the passport under section . . now i have to say that i think in one case, the case of william worthy, a withdrawal of a passport under those circumstances was sustained. however, when he later traveled without a passport, and then reentered the country without a passport, which is a violation of the passport laws as they read on the books, he was indicted and prosecuted in the district court, convicted, and on appeal the conviction was reversed on the ground that it was unconstitutional to make reentry, without a passport, an offense. that case has not been appealed to the supreme court. mr. coleman. is that the case that was in the fifth circuit? mr. chayes. i think so. mr. coleman. it came up from the federal district court in florida? mr. chayes. new orleans, it came up from new orleans. mr. dulles. this applies to american citizens of course? mr. chayes. american citizens. only american citizens can get passports. when we are dealing with aliens, we are in the visa area. mr. dulles. yes. mr. chayes. now the travel restrictions, the area restrictions are under attack in a number of other cases, that come up in different procedural ways. but we have in the past, and will continue to do so until we are told otherwise, withdrawn passports under . from people who have violated travel restrictions. the next category is fugitives from justice. there if a person is under indictment or even if there is a warrant for his arrest, certainly if he has been convicted, we will not issue a passport to him to permit him to depart. in the kent case, the supreme court recognized this as one of the well-defined categories in which the secretary's discretion to withhold a passport was confirmed by practice and experience. as i say, the fugitive from justice category is one that operates on the whole within the united states. if a man is abroad and is indicted, we will not ordinarily withdraw his passport abroad or mark his passport good only for direct return to the united states. we never articulated the rationale for that, but essentially it doesn't really fall within our notion of (a), (b), or (c) of . , and our motion is that the remedy against persons abroad who are charged with crime is extradition rather than the use of the passport power to get them returned. now, a third category is passport fraud, where someone has in fact acted in one way or another to make fraudulent use of the passport itself. we have withdrawn passports under those circumstances. then there is a miscellaneous category, which doesn't include too many. for instance, in one case a man was convicted in the federal republic of germany for attempting to acquire knowledge of state secrets. another man had been involved in a number of fraudulent schemes in various countries, issued worthless checks. he was arrested in australia for fraud and subsequently convicted and sentenced to jail there. another one paid for his passport renewal with a worthless check. that in itself is perhaps in the passport fraud category. left the united states paying for his passage with a worthless check. he represented himself to be an employee of the u.s. government on leave and continued to put out worthless checks, using his passport for identification. we have summarized these actions under these categories in a letter which i sent to mr. rankin, on june . it contains a list of the actions in these categories in the years - --through march of . mr. coleman. can the record note that the original of that letter has been given commission exhibit no. ? mr. chayes. very good. now it should be said that there is one category here that does not appear in the list that we have attached to the letter, although it is explained in a paragraph, the third paragraph of the letter, and that is in fact the category that oswald himself was in, in , when he wanted to come back. that is where there is a person abroad who is in some kind of trouble at the time, or who is anxious to leave where he is and come right back to the united states, as oswald did. we issue a passport as the regulation says, for direct and immediate return to the united states. and that action is taken under section . but since it is taken abroad, heretofore there has been no central list of the actions of that kind in the department's files. as a result of the commission's inquiry a list is being maintained from here on out, but it is not possible without going through a million passport files, to find when action of that kind was taken in the past. i know of a number of cases of my own knowledge where this happened. for example, one or two, a man and his wife, of the students who went to cuba last year went on to morocco, and got into trouble with the moroccan police and so on, and we marked their passport for immediate return. i am told that the names of those two students are listed under category (a), in on the list. their passports were withdrawn because they had violated the travel restrictions, but also, for most of the students we didn't do anything about the passports until they got back to the united states when we withdrew them, but in their particular case, because they got in trouble with the moroccan authorities and were pretty obstreperous about it, we marked their passport good only for direct and immediate return. another case that i remember, in my own experience, was a case of a notorious gun runner in the congo, who was running guns to the katangese rebels during the congo operation, and he was apprehended by the congolese authorities. we didn't want him to be tried, and the congolese didn't want to try him if we didn't want him to be tried. on the other hand they didn't want him around there either. so we marked his passport good for direct and immediate return. in other words, those cases are cases where you can find either some form of trouble which makes the applicant, the passport holder want to go directly home, and us want to make him go directly home, or some very immediate and direct relation to our relations with that particular country. and as i said yesterday, we have taken the view that it can never be done solely, because of political activities or political associations or the exercise of speech. it has to be something beyond that. mr. coleman. i take it that judgment is effected in part by the holding of the supreme court in the _kent_ v. _dulles_ case. mr. chayes. yes; it derives from that. the kent case said that the secretary was not entitled without statutory authorization, at least as we have read the case, was not entitled in the absence of statute, to withhold a passport on grounds related to political association and beliefs. mr. coleman. yesterday you testified that you had reviewed all of the state department files dealing with oswald, and you paid attention to those files as they existed as of june , and that it was your judgment that the passport office could not have refused to issue a passport to oswald in june . mr. chayes. it is my judgment that the passport was properly issued in june of ; yes, sir. mr. coleman. you know that in october , the passport office received information that mr. oswald had been at the russian embassy in mexico. would that information have changed the result at all, in your judgment? mr. chayes. no, sir; that information by itself could not have affected the result. as a matter of fact, as you know, the passport application itself indicated that oswald wanted to travel to russia, and the mere fact that he had gone to the russian embassy in mexico, would not of itself have been a disqualifying event. representative ford. even despite the past history? mr. chayes. i think that is correct. in other words, by itself it doesn't disqualify the applicant because there is no suggestion here that even--first of all could i review the message that came in on october , to the department. i think i may have it in my own document here. (discussion off the record.) mr. chayes. all that is suggested here is that he was in the embassy and he contacted the soviet embassy about a telegram which had been sent. now, there is nothing from that, i don't think, that adds anything or permits us to infer in any way that his travel abroad would be inimical to the foreign policy of the united states or otherwise harmful to the national interest, or that he was going abroad to violate u.s. law. i think this can be said, and i don't think it should be said in criticism of the people who made the decision at the time, because i think the decision at the time and on the basis of our procedures and on the basis of our experience was proper. mr. dulles. may i ask at that point---- the chairman. may he finish? he hadn't finished that statement. mr. chayes. i was going to say looking at it in retrospect and knowing what we now know, it seems to me it would have been desirable to have had some means for triggering off a further investigation of this kind, of a passport applicant, or a passport holder, on the basis of that kind of information. if the further investigation had turned nothing else up, it seems to me clear that he was entitled to a passport on the state of the file as it then existed. the only issue is whether the state of the file showed enough to start or to instigate a further investigation of the purpose and plans for his travel abroad. what you could have done is hard to speculate about. you might have called him in and asked him about his travel plans. you might have made inquiries among friends and relatives about his plans, and so on, and that might have turned up evidence that would have suggested that his proposed travel abroad fell within one of these categories and it would have warranted the withdrawal of his passport. because of our review of these procedures, in the light of what happened, as we said yesterday, we now have established a defector category in the lookout card file, and people of this kind who apply for passports now won't get them routinely, even though the state of the file as it then exists would warrant the issuance of a passport. but there will be a review of the file and any necessary further or any indicated further investigatory steps, if a defector does apply for a passport. you say why didn't you have those procedures before? why did it take this kind of a thing to do it? to stimulate a new procedure? the answer is simply that nothing in our past experience at all suggested anything like this kind of trouble. of course the ultimate result, the ultimate assassination wasn't related in any way to the passport decisions. but it has drawn our attention more closely to the problem of defectors in this connection. i should add one general point, and that is when we talk about passports in this context, we tend to emphasize the very, very few bad apples of one kind or another, and they are very few, who are not entitled to passports. but the fact is that the function of the passport office is not to deny passports to people. it is to get passports to people. the passport office puts out million passports a year. the great overwhelming majority of those people are ordinary american citizens who want to get abroad for business or pleasure, and the ability of the passport office to furnish them with passport facilities, in very short order, is of tremendous service, and tremendous convenience to them. that is the primary function of the passport office. it has of course the duty of administering these denial and withdrawal statutes. but that is not its primary function. its primary function is to get passport facilities to the great bulk of americans who have legitimate business abroad. it is dealing with a million or more applications a year, and millions of bits of information, like this piece we have just been talking about. i think when you see things in that perspective it is perhaps easier to evaluate some of the decisions and some of the actions taken here. representative ford. but i think you have to turn the coin over. there are millions of passport applications, or a million plus. but there are only very few such as mr. oswald, or people in the defector category. so the problem there i don't think is as serious an administrative one as you would tend to imply. mr. chayes. no; i am not suggesting it is, and in fact i think we have by a relatively simple administrative action taken the steps which will assure that in the future applications from this kind of person will receive a more elaborate review. all i am saying is that if you ask why that wasn't done before, it is because the experience didn't indicate that there was a problem, and that is because that isn't the main business of the passport office. its main business is not the business of a security agency which goes around focusing or is supposed to be focusing on security problems. its main business is that of a processing agency. representative ford. but we have vast resources of people in the government who are, or who do have security as a main business, and it seems to me that it is vitally important that those people and those vast resources somehow tie into the administrative process of denying or refusing passports under unique circumstances. mr. chayes. they do. that is any of those agencies can levy a request on the passport office for notification when a passport is issued to any person. if the fbi or the cia or the secret service or any other security or law enforcement agency is interested, or the u.s. court, the federal district court or the district attorney's office, any agency of that kind which is interested in knowing whether a particular person has applied for passport facilities may levy a request. that request would be serviced by placing a lookout card in the file which would then automatically involve notification of that agency when that person applied for a passport. mr. dulles. isn't there a broader point than that though, because the security agencies don't know in all cases what requirements to levy. now if in this case, for example, in the oswald case, if there had been this lookout card, and you had notified let's say the fbi and the cia that the former defector had applied for a passport and might be going abroad, then they can put in a card, and then they can be helpful in following that situation abroad. but they don't know, if they don't know that oswald is going to apply, they have no way of putting in their requirements. in certain cases they can. but in a great many cases they cannot. mr. chayes. well, let me make two points. first, now under the new memorandum as to defectors, the fbi and cia and other security agencies will automatically be notified whether they have made a request or not. second, as to most people who have lookout cards, the fbi and the other security agencies couldn't care less about whether they apply for passports. most of the lookout cards relate to loss of nationality, not security issues at all. so that there is a problem both ways. we can't, the department can't--it could notify the security agencies whenever a lookout card, a person as to whom there was a lookout card applied for a passport. but in out of cases that would be so much waste paper for the security agency. there has to be a reciprocal effort at cooperation. there is a reciprocal effort at cooperation, and by and large it works very well. by and large when the fbi is interested in somebody, it tells the passport office it is interested in them and they want to know if he comes for a passport. by and large the passport office knows people whom the fbi is interested in, and when they apply for a passport or something like that, there is an exchange of information. it is interesting that this cia report got to the passport office. it is a matter of routine. all security reports of this kind that originate in the security agencies, copies go to the passport office and are put in the passport file. so that there is a great deal of coordination. but in the nature of things it can't be a perfect system when the two kinds of responsibilities are differently allocated, the security responsibility in one case and the other responsibility in another. representative ford. when did the cia report of the mexican trip get into the passport file? mr. chayes. it is not clear to me here. it is probably about - - is what it looks like to me from the date, october , . but on the other hand, note that this report--we pay a great deal of attention to the fact that it got into the passport file. but the report itself originated in the cia. copy of it went to the fbi. in other words, all the security agencies themselves knew of this fact. as i say, myself, i think it did not change the character of the file so as to warrant the withdrawal of a passport from the passport administration point of view. but even if we had taken steps to withdraw the passport, it is hard to see how it had any impact on the result at all. representative ford. leave aside the tragic result. under your current procedures if such a situation developed, would there be an administrative step taken to try and retrieve the passport? mr. chayes. under current procedures what would have happened in june, when he first made application, was that there would have been a lookout card in the file, and before automatically issuing a passport there would have been a review of the file and some further investigative steps. now that investigation would have inquired into the purpose of travel abroad, and a determination would then have been made whether the purpose of travel on the basis of the file--and remember when we do deny a passport we are then subject to hearing, administrative hearing and judicial review, and we have got to make the denial and the evidence on which it is based stand up in those circumstances--but if we determined that there was a basis then for denial we would have denied it then. so the question wouldn't have arisen later in october. if at the time in june we had determined after investigation that there was no basis for denial, then the passport would have been issued, and if a matter of this kind had come in, there would have been, i suppose, an administrative determination to decide whether, in the light of the earlier investigation, whether this new information warranted any further action or further investigation. representative ford. would it be your judgment that the june determination, using your new criteria, would have resulted in a refusal of this passport? mr. chayes. not on the basis of the file as then existed. it is hard to answer your hypothetical question because under our new procedures there would have been a further investigation that would either have turned up some additional material, or would have left the file in its present state. if there was no additional material suggesting the evil purposes or improper purposes for travel, the decision to give a passport would have been the same as it was on the file. on the basis of the file, the decision was properly made. representative ford. would you in the june determination have had the files from the department of state which showed that on october oswald walked into the american embassy. mr. chayes. oh, yes. representative ford. and said "i, lee harvey oswald, do hereby request that my present citizenship in the united states of america be revoked." mr. chayes. oh, yes; the entire file. representative ford. and would it also have had the one of november d where he said "i, lee harvey oswald, do hereby request that my present united states citizenship be revoked"? mr. chayes. yes; it would have had all of that. representative ford. it would have had all of that? mr. chayes. yes. representative ford. and it would have had the---- mr. chayes. but it would also have had the determination that he had failed to expatriate himself and that he was an american citizen. i, myself, doubt that an abortive attempt at expatriation would, certainly without more, warrant the denial of a passport to a person who was in fact a citizen. representative ford. and a person who in his application in june of , indicated he wanted to return to the soviet union? mr. chayes. one of the places he wanted to travel to was russia. i think if you add those two together, and all you have is his intention to travel to russia, and the fact that he made an abortive attempt to expatriate himself in russia sometime before, i don't think you have the basis for a finding in terms of the regulation that persons, activities abroad would "violate the laws of the united states, be prejudicial to the orderly conduct of foreign relations or otherwise be prejudicial to the interests of the united states." i think you have got the basis for a finding that this is not a very attractive fellow, but i don't see how you can bring him within any of those categories on the basis of the evidence in the file. mr. dulles. is it not correct though that when you were trying to get the visa for mrs. oswald, you made a very strong case that his continued residence in the soviet union was harmful to the foreign policy of the united states, or words to that effect? mr. chayes. well, we were very anxious to get him back and i think that is right. in a sense we had him on our hands then. we were in discussion with him. he was in the embassy and he was very directly our responsibility, so that anything that he did or that went wrong during that period, he was under our protection and we were necessarily involved. if he went back as a tourist and got into some trouble of some kind or another, we would then have the choice i think to get involved, and we might or might not. the situation it seems to me is different when a fellow is already in trouble and you have taken steps to put the u.s. embassy in the picture. then you have a special responsibility if anything goes off the track and you want to take whatever steps you can to shorten the time in which you are bearing that special responsibility. representative ford. i think, mr. chayes, however, you are saying or you are inferring that it was a clear-cut decision back when it was determined that he had not given up his united states citizenship. mr. chayes. it was in july of , when his passport was renewed. we couldn't have had a passport renewal if there weren't such a determination, and in fact there was such a determination. representative ford. there was such a determination? mr. chayes. yes, sir. representative ford. that is correct, but it was not a clear-cut case when you look at the steps that he, lee harvey oswald, tried to take. mr. chayes. well, i don't know---- representative ford. it was a determination, but it was not one that was absolutely all black or white. mr. chayes. no, but once you make the decision on the basis of whatever is before you, he is either a citizen or he is not a citizen, and i think he is a citizen, or was a citizen. representative ford. but the fact that the matter was administratively investigated ought to, i would think under your new regulations, when he applies to go back to the country where he originally sought citizenship, there ought to be some real investigation, and i am surprised that you say that under those regulations, under these facts, he probably would still be given a passport. mr. chayes. i agree with the first part of your statement, that under the new regulations, as we have developed them in the light of hindsight, there would be a further investigation. representative ford. but you also said---- mr. chayes. and i think there should. representative ford. he would then be given his passport again despite the new regulation. mr. chayes. but if the investigation turned up no more than what was in the file with respect to his purposes for travel abroad, if we didn't have some hard factual evidence to support a finding that his travel would fall within one of these three categories in . , then the passport would be issued. we have to start from the proposition that the supreme court has said that the right to travel is a part of the liberty protected by the fifth amendment, and that the secretary cannot withhold a passport arbitrarily. now we have taken the position, i think properly so, that in order to justify withholding under one of these three subsections of . , there has to be a real and concrete showing that the travel either would violate the laws of the united states, be prejudicial to the orderly conduct of foreign relations, or otherwise be prejudicial to the interests of the united states. add to that that you can't make that finding on the basis of, let's say, political activity abroad. suppose we could show, for example, that oswald was going to the soviet union to make a speech before the supreme soviet telling how terrible things were in the united states and how bad the u.s. policies toward cuba were, for example. representative ford. would that preclude him from getting a passport? mr. chayes. no. we have people abroad who are doing that all the time. we have got malcolm x traveling across africa making one speech after the other about how terrible our policies on the race question are. and it is perfectly clear to me on the basis of the cases--although we might get a little more information in the next couple of weeks, we have a case before the chief justice now--but it is clear to me on the basis of the cases so far that if what is involved is speech, no matter how hostile it is to our policies or our objectives, you can't deny a passport for that. representative ford. what about oswald's statements to either mr. snyder or mr. mcvickar that he as a former marine was going to give information he had acquired as a former marine to the soviet authorities. mr. chayes. that is, of course, a more difficult one. of course we know he didn't have very much information. representative ford. no, but he was a marine and he had been trained as an electronics radar specialist. he said he was going to give this information. mr. chayes. but the second point is that on the whole these criteria look to the future. they look to the purpose of this travel. now if he had committed an offense against the espionage laws or whatever it was abroad on his past performance---- representative ford. this isn't a question of freedom of speech. mr. chayes. no; i understand. representative ford. this is a question of giving away government secrets. mr. chayes. no, no; i don't equate the two at all. but that kind of thing i think would have been the subject of investigation under our new procedures, and might have turned up something. i think if you could have found, for example, that he did in the past give information of this kind, you might be in a different position. representative ford. was any investigation of that aspect made at the time? mr. chayes. yes. representative ford. when he came back and asked for the renewal of his passport? mr. chayes. no; but what happened was when he returned to the united states--first of all the fbi was kept constantly informed, and as you know kept looking into the oswald situation periodically from the time he came back. mr. coleman. and those reports were in the passport file. mr. chayes. they were in the passport file, and immediately after he came back, he was interviewed very fully by the fbi, and i think as i recall the file--i haven't reviewed it recently--i think he was questioned on this very point by the fbi, and he said he hadn't given any and they weren't very much interested in it. and the fbi apparently was satisfied with that. they made no further move against him on that basis. so that we did have whatever information there was. as i say, although this regulation looks to the purpose of the forthcoming travel and not to the past travel, nonetheless i think it is perfectly appropriate to make inferences on the basis of what he did before. we refused to issue a passport to worthy when he would not give us assurances that he would observe the restrictions, because on the basis of his past conduct, we were prepared to infer that in the absence of such assurances, he might well disobey the restrictions. mr. ehrlich points out to me that on may , --this is one of several such memorandums--our security office sent to the fbi with copies to the other security agencies a memorandum on the subject of american defectors, and their status in the u.s.s.r., and there is a summary of that which covers oswald. this was just before he came home, i guess. mr. coleman. will you indicate what file that is by the number? mr. chayes. this is the folder ii in the numbering that we gave you, and it is document no. ii- ( ), in our number system. mr. dulles. could you read or indicate what that says about oswald? mr. chayes. oh, yes; it just summarizes his status as of that date and it says: "lee oswald: it has been determined that oswald the ex-marine is still an american citizen. both he and his soviet wife now have exit permits and the department has given approval for their travel with their infant child to the u.s.a. there is a problem with his wife, however, in that sov in the department is trying to get a waiver of (g), which requires that oswald's wife pick up her visa for entry into the u.s.a. in western europe. as soon as this question has been settled, they will be free to travel." mr. dulles. may i clarify one other point? mr. coleman. may i ask him a question about that? in that file mr. chayes isn't there also another fbi report dated august , , which indicates that lee harvey oswald was reinterviewed by the bureau agents on august , , with respect to contacts he had made at the soviet embassy in washington? mr. chayes. i would have to review the file itself, for the specific details as to dates and so on. i do remember that the fbi in its subsequent inquiries talked to him about his contacts with the soviet embassy. he had some, of course, in connection with his wife. they asked him whether he had had any other contacts with the soviets and so on. mr. coleman. mr. dulles, you had a question. mr. dulles. this apparently just went to the bureau, did it not? did it go to the other agencies? mr. chayes. i think the---- mr. dulles. yes; it went to the cia. copy went to the cia. i would like to clarify one point. it is not quite clear to me what information about oswald was in the passport files as distinct from the department files. i didn't realize that there was much about oswald in the passport file itself in the absence of, what do you call it, a check---- mr. coleman. a lookout card. mr. dulles. a lookout card. mr. chayes. no; the passport file, i am holding it up. mr. dulles. it is a big file. mr. chayes. it is roman numeral x and it contains in our numbering system documents or something like that. mr. dulles. that was in the passport file itself? mr. chayes. in the passport file itself. a large amount of the security material is there, and of course the security file would have been pulled too whenever the passport file was reviewed. mr. dulles. do you know whether that file was reviewed before the issuance of the passport in june or not? mr. chayes. . mr. dulles. i mean ? mr. chayes. it was not. mr. dulles. it was not? mr. chayes. it was not, because what happened then was that the telex came in from new orleans. the only thing that you do is go to the lookout card file. there was no lookout card. in the absence of a lookout card, routine approval goes out and the passport was issued from the new orleans office. if there had been a lookout card, then the lookout card would have sent them back to the file. there was no lookout card because the file as it then stood didn't have anything in it that warranted the denial of a passport, and under our then procedures we didn't have a flag for people of this kind to stimulate a further inquiry or investigation. mr. dulles. isn't it usual in issuing a passport though to look, in addition to the lookout card, to look at the file you have on the individual? mr. chayes. no, sir; unless there is a lookout card, the passport is issued automatically on the basis of the local agency's determination of citizenship. there has to be evidence of citizenship. now let me say there are different ways in which this can come up, because for example a man may apply for a passport before a clerk of the court and that application would be forwarded to the department. but even then the department adjudicator would first look at the lookout file. if there is no card in the lookout file, all he would do is determine whether the application was complete, and whether satisfactory evidence of citizenship was presented, and whether on the face of it, you know, the oath was properly taken or any supplementary questionnaire resolved doubts. and then would issue the passport. if there were a supplemental questionnaire or something like that, then he would probably go to the file. in our agency there are special passport issuing offices. new orleans is one of the big ones, we have one in new york, we have some others, there the system is very routinized. daily, and sometimes more than once daily, the agency will telegraph by telex the name, date, and place of birth of its applicants, the people who have come in that day to make an application. mr. coleman. could we mark as exhibit no. the teletype that came in on oswald. i think that would help the commission to indicate how it comes in. (commission exhibit no. was marked for identification and received in evidence.) mr. chayes. yes. mr. coleman. you had better explain the "no" which is beside oswald's name. name. mr. chayes. yes; well here you see the telex coming in from new orleans, and there are names on it with date of birth beside each name, and it is interesting that opposite lee harvey oswald is capital letters "no" which might be rather interesting except that it stands for new orleans, and every telex that comes from new orleans has that mark on it. it is covered by our abbreviations manual, and one of your investigators made, of course with our knowledge in our office, but not in the passport office, a surprise visit to the passport office to make sure that they were, in fact, putting no on these things, and they are. that is the designation of the office. what happens is when these names come in, the lookout file is searched for those names, and if there is no lookout card, then a responding telex is sent back. it says here , ow . that is this one, "all okay." ow is office to washington. wo is washington to office. so the control number of the outgoing from washington is wo , and it says that on your ow , all the names were okay. now it is interesting, the telex came in and it is stamped june , : p.m.--june , . it went out june , : a.m. and these people all got the passports. now it is only on the basis of that kind of a system that you can get out a million passports in a way that really provides first class service to the american people. miss knight in her administration of the office, which extends back into the previous administration, has cut down the time from something like weeks to hours in most of the cases. mr. dulles. could the passport office itself prepare a lookout card on its own initiative on the basis let's say of a file like the oswald file? mr. chayes. it would have prepared a lookout card on any person as to whom the file suggested that there were grounds for withdrawal, or denial of the passport. mr. coleman. mr. chayes, at this point could we mark as commission exhibit no. the existing standard operating notice which was in effect on february , , of the department with respect to the lookout card system? (commission exhibit no. was marked for identification and received in evidence.) mr. chayes. yes. mr. coleman. would you describe commission exhibit no. ? mr. chayes. this is the standard operating notice which covers the categories, and if you look at them they relate each category to a ground of potential disqualification. mr. dulles. as of what date does this read? mr. coleman. february . mr. chayes. now we have added by the schwartz to knight memorandum of recent date a defector category which differs slightly from the others in that in all of the other categories something in the file already suggests that the person may be ineligible for a passport. the defector category would simply stimulate further investigation in the case of application by such a person, and would automatically trigger notification of the other security agencies. mr. dulles. how do you define the defector category, do you know? mr. chayes. i think we have the---- mr. dulles. would that have covered oswald? that is what i am interested in. mr. chayes. yes; well, it was in fact designed to cover oswald, so that---- mr. dulles. it probably would have. mr. chayes. it would, but defector is not a statutory term or one that has real technical significance. i have said in my own discussions with people who have asked for guidance in administering this memorandum and others that it is not necessarily related to an attempted renunciation of citizenship or anything else. it involves the kind of thing that if there were a war on would be treason. in other words, it involves something like aid and comfort to the enemy or attempted aid and comfort to the enemy. the only thing is the enemy isn't technically an enemy because we are not at war. but that requires some judgment to decide which ones you put in and which ones you wouldn't. mr. dulles. there is a definition we could get though and put it in the record. mr. chayes. no, no. mr. dulles. there is no definition? mr. chayes. if you look at the schwartz memorandum, it says that the oswald case highlights the necessity of maintaining up-to-date lookout cards in the files of the passport office, "for persons who may have defected to communist countries or areas or redefected. subsequent to the oswald incident, i requested the department of defense to furnish this office with identifying information on military personnel in this category. information with respect to these military personnel has now been received from all three services and copies are attached. "on the basis of the attached information, please bring up to date the lookout cards of the passport office." and then it simply lists the names of the people that came over from the military. mr. coleman. mr. chayes, is the document we have marked exhibit no. , the standard operating notice as of february , ? mr. chayes. yes. mr. coleman. in the attachment in category k you have "known or suspected communists or subversives" as a category on which there should be a lookout card. mr. chayes. yes. mr. coleman. wouldn't mr. oswald have fallen in that category, based upon the passport file? mr. chayes. i don't think so. there is nothing to indicate that he had ever been a member of the communist party. maybe you would have regarded his fair play for cuba activities as falling within the notion subversive. i have to say that i think k dates from an earlier period before the kent case, in which we were denying passports very broadly to a category of people who might be called subversive. rockwell kent himself, brehl, the other defendant, people as to whom there was no real membership information, but who had generally, what had been thought of as having subversive views or connections. with the kent and brehl cases, it may well have been that that category fell into some desuetude. i think it is worth inquiring of miss knight whether that category was maintained after the kent case, or whether we simply took those out. mr. coleman. in the commission exhibit no. you also have another category, category r, which reads: "individual's actions do not reflect to credit of u.s. abroad." would you say that based upon the oswald file as it existed in the passport office as of june , that he would not fall in that category? mr. chayes. i don't think so when you are thinking about what this means. i don't think one person in a billion abroad knew oswald or had any such experience with him or anything else. this isn't really a reflection on the united states. i suppose if you construed it that way, if somebody got drunk on the champs elysees he ought to be in that category. i don't think you can really construe it that broadly. it has to mean i am sure someone who has a really notorious course of conduct like the kind of thing that i summarized for you on the three people in the so-called other category when we were talking to earlier--my letter of june . representative ford. if you really are equating someone who is intoxicated in paris with oswald---- mr. chayes. no; i am not equating them in the quality of their conduct, but for the purposes of this category "do not reflect credit on the united states abroad" i think what that must involve is some very notorious course of conduct which a lot of people have had a chance to see, which has somewhat serious consequences of the kind that i summarized here "convicted for attempting to acquire knowledge of state secrets in germany, fraudulent schemes, convicted for fraud," that kind of thing. here is a fellow who left a trail of bad checks, using his passport as identification and claiming to be a u.s. employee. all i am saying is that category r, although it is a catchall category, i would conceive is construed or should be construed narrowly. let me say further, i probably should not be testifying to this so much anyway because these categories are guidelines, are operational guidelines. they don't have legal consequences. and i think you ought to ask miss knight, who has the operational responsibility, whether the way i conceive this is correct. i may misconceive it, but i think in essence these categories are related to grounds of disqualification, and unless the conduct specified comes within the range of being a ground, a basis for disqualification, i don't think the lookout card would be made up. mr. coleman. don't you have a category x, which is called "catch card," denotes limited lookout validity, not necessarily refusal situation? mr. chayes. yes. mr. coleman. so perhaps oswald could have been put in there, couldn't he, in that category, based upon the file? mr. chayes. it is possible, and i suppose that is exactly what we are now doing with defectors. mr. coleman. do you know what category---- mr. chayes. i think you ought to inquire from miss knight about that. mr. coleman. i also take it you wouldn't know what goes in categories o and p, o being "orange card, includes recent master list" and p being "project carry." mr. chayes. i don't personally know at all. (discussion off the record.) representative ford. let me ask you this, mr. chayes. were oswald's various applications and various approvals ever handled as a special case as far as you know? mr. chayes. the only applications that were handled as a special case were the ones made in russia for the return of his passport in the first instance, and then the renewal of his passport. those were handled as a special case, both in the embassy and in the department. although i don't think very high ranking officers passed on them in the sense of assistant secretaries or something like that, nonetheless they where handled at very responsible levels in the department. the political desk was consulted as well as the bureau of security and consular affairs, and a very deliberate and special decision was made. the subsequent application, the june application, was handled as a matter of routine. representative ford. the application in the embassy for renewal or reissuance, was that handled more expeditiously or less expeditiously than other defector or attempted defector cases? mr. chayes. i couldn't say. i couldn't say because i don't have any experience in it against which to measure it. as i reviewed the file it seemed to me to be a fairly normal kind of a file for a matter of this kind. when i say "this kind" i don't mean other defectors because i have never seen any of that. but the reporting seemed full enough, and the response came back in time. but they didn't seem to be accelerated. there were always adequate supporting memorandums indicating consultation within the department on broad enough basis. representative ford. how long did it take from the actual time that he made the application in moscow until it was finally approved? mr. chayes. he made the application on---- mr. coleman. this is the passport? representative ford. yes; in moscow. mr. coleman. he made it july , . at that time mr. snyder returned to him his existing passport. the new passport, namely the one he got to travel back to the united states, was not issued until may . mr. chayes. yes. mr. coleman. though the instruction that it could be issued was submitted, sent forward to the embassy, certainly by the end of . mr. chayes. yes; they were submitted subject to the embassy being satisfied on certain points. it ought to be stated also that, according to the record at least, the passport was returned to him, in july, july . it was marked at that time "good for travel only for direct return to the united states." but the purpose of returning it to him was so that he could apply to the soviet authorities for an exit document, because he believed and our people in moscow concurred, that he couldn't get an exit document unless he had a u.s. passport. representative ford. an exit document for himself? mr. chayes. for himself. mr. dulles. i note in this file, looking at your passport file which is very complete, that in his passport application of june he gives as his approximate date of departure, i assume departure from the united states, as october-december . is it the practice of the department to issue passports for persons who are not leaving for or months? mr. chayes. oh, yes. mr. dulles. anytime? mr. chayes. anytime you want a passport, if you are entitled to one, you get it. and you keep it even after you return. i mean if he had used it, gone out of the country and returned, if it is still within what is it, the -year period now, the passport is a valid passport and he can depart again in the absence of some action taken looking towards withdrawal. so that these are ambulatory documents, and there are many people who just automatically--i don't say oswald did this, obviously he didn't, but there are many people who automatically renew their passport when it runs out so that they always have travel documentation. representative ford. are there any other defector or attempted defector cases where the person came back and tried to get his passport? how long did it take in those cases to go through this process? mr. chayes. you mean comparable to the june application? representative ford. no; i am talking of the moscow application. mr. chayes. i think we did submit a report on that. well, i am sorry, we didn't. we did inquire whether there were any defectors who were in the situation of the june application. we found that there was one, and he was also issued a passport routinely. but i can supply for the record the information as to the others. representative ford. i think it would be helpful. mr. chayes. you would like to know the time from application to grant of passport in the soviet union for defectors or attempted defectors who were trying to get back then to the united states? representative ford. yes; if we could have that for the record. mr. chayes. we will be very glad to submit it. mr. coleman. mr. chayes, turning your attention to the question of the admission of marina oswald to the united states as a nonquota immigrant, i take it that since she was the wife of an american citizen, she would be entitled to nonquota immigrant status unless she was disqualified because she was a member of a communist organization, is that correct? mr. chayes. yes; unless she was subject to one of those disqualifications in (a)( ). mr. coleman. now the first decision that was made by the embassy was that her membership in the particular trade union was involuntary, and therefore she was not disqualified? mr. chayes. that is correct. mr. coleman. i take it you reviewed the record and you concur in that judgment? mr. chayes. that is correct. it would also be made, and be made automatically in the case of persons belonging to trade unions not in leadership positions in the trade union, and where there is no external evidence of active participation, because membership in the union is a condition of employment in those places in the soviet union, and our regulations cover the point precisely. mr. coleman. now the other decision that was made was that the department and the immigration and naturalization service would waive the provisions of section (g) of the immigration and nationality act which provision says that a visa could not be issued from moscow because the attorney general in had placed russia among those countries that refused to accept russian citizens that we wanted to send back to russia. mr. chayes. yes; (g) is a sanction which the act provides against countries, not against people. it is not a disqualification for a person. if (g) had not been waived, mrs. oswald would simply have gone to rotterdam and gotten the same visa from our consulate in rotterdam. it is a sanction against the country which is levied when, as you say, the attorney general determines that the country refuses to accept people whom we deport who are their nationals. it gets back a little to the point you were making yesterday about what obligation one has to accept his own nationals back from another country. mr. dulles. that is a general rule of international law, isn't it, you are supposed to do it. mr. chayes. yes; as a general rule of international law i suppose one should accept his own nationals, but people who have expatriated themselves wouldn't be nationals and therefore we wouldn't have to take them back. in any event--that is a little digression--but this sanction is a sanction designed to penalize a country which has refused to receive back its own nationals when they are deported from the united states. that sanction was brought into play by the determination of the attorney general made on may , . mr. dulles. i wonder whether in addition to the information that mr. ford has requested, you could give us information, oh, say covering the last or years---- mr. chayes. i think we have already. mr. dulles. i haven't said what i want it on. with regard to the time that has elapsed between the application of a soviet woman married to an american citizen, the time that is taken from her application to the time that that application has been favorably acted upon by the soviet union. in this case as far as i understand it, the soviet union gave permission for mrs. oswald to come either in december or january , and that because of this particular sanction you have just been discussing, it wasn't really cleared up until may. and therefore that the delay was in part a delay due to american regulations rather than to soviet regulations. mr. chayes. well, her processing in the soviet union from the time she first started to try to get back---- mr. dulles. that is it. mr. chayes. until she got an exit visa was about months. it was just under months. mr. dulles. yes. mr. chayes. we have answered in our answers to your---- mr. coleman. it is a commission exhibit no. which was just marked, where mr. chayes, under date of may , , answered various questions which were asked, to determine whether there was anything unusual in the way that marina and the oswald applications were handled by the soviet union and we will make that part of the record. (commission exhibit no. was marked for identification and received in evidence.) mr. dulles. does that cover this particular point? mr. coleman. it covers the point not for years but for or years. mr. chayes. if i can read into the record this answer, it says---- mr. dulles. which answer is that? mr. chayes. question , attachment a. the relevant part is "in the immediate post-war period there were about marriages in which the wife had been waiting for many years for a soviet exit permit. after the death of stalin the soviet government showed a disposition to settle these cases. in the summer of permission was given for all of this group of soviet citizen wives to accompany their american citizen husbands to the united states. since this group was given permission to leave the soviet union, there have been from time to time marriages in the soviet union of american citizens and soviet citizens. "with one exception it is our understanding that all of the soviet citizens involved have been given permission to immigrate to the united states after waiting periods which were in some cases from to months and in others much longer." so that i think what mr. snyder said yesterday was that months was par for the course. it wasn't an unusual delay, and it was fairly low as those things went, but not something that would give you any surprise. there were a number of other -month ones and there were some less. mr. dulles. for our records i wonder if it would be possible to be a little more specific, i mean to furnish us information that would be a little more specific on this point, because it is very hard for us to tell of the numbers how many had less than months and how many had more than months. that is the point that has been raised often you know in the press, and the charge has been made that this is very suspicious, that this was done so soon. i think our records ought to show a good deal of specification what that record is. i mean this is very helpful in a general way but it is not very specific. mr. chayes. we can do that. the further answer farther down on the next page, page , says for example that "in a most recent case of this type a soviet woman married an american citizen in december of and received an exit visa about months later." mr. dulles. that is very helpful. mr. chayes. but we will get a detailed account for the commission. mr. coleman. mr. chayes, as i understand it, section (g) itself says nothing about the power of the state department or immigration and naturalization service to waive its provisions. mr. chayes. the state department doesn't waive the provisions. i should start by saying that (g) is a section administered by the justice department and the attorney general has primary responsibility for interpretation and administration. the attorney general has from the beginning interpreted (g) as involving waiver power. i had never had occasion to examine the question at all until this matter came up, and i have made only a cursory examination, but i think the judgment is sound that there is waiver power under (g). mr. dulles. may i just ask one question there. our file that i have before me, and your very helpful paper---- mr. coleman. commission document no. . mr. dulles. commission document no. doesn't indicate really the basis on which the texas authorities were holding up the visa. does that appear anywhere in the record? mr. chayes. i don't know. it may appear in our attachment b answers. in essence it was that they thought this fellow had behaved pretty badly and he wasn't entitled to any special consideration. mr. coleman. that is why at this time i would like to read into the record part of the regulation under which they will waive. it says: "if substantial adverse security information related to the petitioner is developed, the visa petition shall be processed on its merits and certified to the regional commissioner for determination whether the sanction should be waived. "the assistant commissioner shall endorse the petition to show whether the waiver is granted or denied and forward it and notify the appropriate field officer of the action taken." in other words, that since some derogatory information was in the file, and since oswald was the petitioner, the initial decision made by the field officer of the immigration service was that the waiver should not be granted. mr. chayes. that is correct. mr. dulles. i assume that that was motivated probably in one of the letters from the texas immigration office to the department of justice or the immigration service here. mr. coleman. yes; well what happened, the record was referred to the immigration field officer in texas, and the record was the history of the fact that oswald had defected or attempted to defect, and the statements he had made. so they, therefore, made the determination on the field level that they would not waive the sanction. mr. chayes. that is right. the sanction was waived only after urging from the department. mr. dulles. yes, that appears in this commission exhibit, this document that i have referred to. but we do not have in our files the letter of the texas immigration authorities first refusing as far as i know. mr. coleman. we will have that. that testimony will be put in through miss james and miss waterman. mr. dulles. they have that. all right, if they supply that, that will be adequate. mr. coleman. so i take it that, in your judgment after reviewing the file, you think that the waiver should have been granted? mr. chayes. well, i think there that it was not an improper exercise of discretion. that is correct. mr. coleman. just one other question. is there any policy in the department to delay the acceptance of attempted renunciation of citizenship? mr. chayes. well, delay, i don't know that there is a stated policy that you put the person off. the general policy of the department is first i think to discourage renunciations, to make it clear that the person has a right to renounce, but nonetheless to discourage them. secondly, the policy is that the consular officer should assure himself that the person seeking to renounce his citizenship is acting soberly, rationally, and with full awareness of the meaning and consequences of his act. and for that purpose the consular officer can use any means within his judgment. he can talk to the person. he could invoke a cooling-off period or ask a person to sleep on it or something of that kind. it seems to me how the policy is implemented is something for the particular case. if somebody came up in england and had just married an earl or something like that and said "i want to be an english citizen now" and was in full possession of her faculties apparently there probably wouldn't be much worry about it, although even then the consul would go through a routine of trying to assure that the person knew and understood fully what she was doing. mr. dulles. is that routine prescribed, should it be prescribed do you think now in the light of hindsight in this situation? mr. chayes. no; i think in each case it will depend so much on the situation with the particular person. if a person comes in and he is very agitated or something of that kind, it might dictate a totally different approach than a different kind of thing. mr. dulles. wouldn't it be useful though to give--i don't want to suggest what the secretary of state should do in this, but in the light of this experience, would there not be some benefit possibly in giving people in the field the result of the experience gained in this particular case? mr. chayes. well, the general approach, and other matters related to it, are touched on in orientation courses for consular officers and so on. i think as i look on consul snyder's actions, that he behaved very much like a responsible foreign service officer. that happened long before i was in the department, so i can say that without any involvement. but it seemed to me that he did just what he should have done, despite the unfortunate aftermath. and it shows to me, at least, that the training and orientation that these people are getting is right, is serviceable, and they are able to handle these situations as they come in. mr. dulles. i realize that you ought not to prescribe hard and fast rules, that there is a broad range of discretion that should be exercised here. but i just raise the question as to whether a good deal of experience hasn't been gained in this case in that very field. mr. chayes. well, it may very well be that more attention to that particular aspect should be given in the orientation courses and so on. those things tend to reflect what is hot at the moment you know, and if you haven't had trouble with something for a pretty long time, it tends maybe not to get mentioned. representative ford. if oswald had persisted that day, october , in demanding the form that is a prerequisite under your definition for renunciation, would snyder have been required to give it to him and permit him to sign it? mr. chayes. i think if it had been in ordinary office hours when the consulate was open for business, and if snyder was satisfied that he was competent, that oswald was competent, he would have to give him the form, yes, sir. representative ford. does snyder have the authority to make a determination of competency? mr. chayes. no; he doesn't have the authority to make a determination of competence, and i suppose it is possible at some point to get the issue tried in court. but i think a consular officer would probably be acting within his discretion if he saw somebody who was drunk or raving or something and just said, "well, i am not going to give you this until i am sure that your action is your act." after all, when the consul accepts the oath, he is certifying that it is the act of the person in a meaningful sense, and so if he thought that the person was incompetent, i think he would have discretion not to give the oath. but i put that far aside because in the particular case here, mr. snyder made it perfectly clear that he had no reason to doubt that oswald was fully competent. and so if oswald had been there at a time when the office was open, or had returned at a time when the office was open, and had persisted in his demand, i think snyder would have been under an obligation to give him the form. representative ford. the only technical reason or basis upon which snyder could have denied oswald the right that day was the fact that it was on a saturday, a non-working-hour period of the embassy. mr. chayes. yes; i think he had every right to try to dissuade him, or persuade him not to act or persuade him to think it over and come back the next day. but if after all of that oswald still had said "but i want to do it now" and if the office was open for business, then i think he would have had to do it. mr. dulles. i think it might be useful if it has not been done to introduce at this point as an exhibit the form of oath of renunciation. here is the formalized oath and i think it would be well to have this in our records unless it is already in our records. representative ford. i agree. mr. coleman. no; it isn't. could we say it will be marked as commission exhibit no. and place this sticker on that page, photostat it and then just send it back? (commission exhibit no. was marked for identification and received in evidence.) representative ford. when oswald came back on november , i believe, which was a regular working day---- mr. coleman. mr. commissioner, he did not come back on november . he merely wrote a letter. mr. chayes. wrote a letter. he never came back. representative ford. are all of the employees, mr. snyder, mr. mcvickar, and the others who had any firsthand contact with the oswald case in this area, were they state department employees? mr. chayes. yes, sir; these two men who were the only ones who did see him directly, i think the secretary, their secretary also saw him, but had nothing to do with him except as a receptionist. these two men were foreign service officers and are now foreign service officers. representative ford. in the strictest term. mr. chayes. yes, sir; members of the foreign service, appointed by the president with the advice and consent of the senate. representative ford. could you tell us in a bit more detail the process that you followed or the procedure that you carried out when you first got into the oswald case. you mentioned yesterday you got a call or you were directed by i believe the secretary of state or by somebody in higher authority to take certain steps. will you tell us who called you, what you did in the first or days? mr. chayes. it was the evening of the day, perhaps about o'clock on the day of the assassination. it may have been somewhat earlier, because i think i remember i went home for an hour and then came back to carry out this assignment. mr. ball, once it became known that oswald had some history as a defector---- mr. dulles. ball is the under secretary of state. mr. chayes. he was then the acting secretary because the secretary of state as you recall was on a plane over the pacific. so he was the acting secretary. but even if he had been the under secretary he is my client. representative ford. he still had some authority. mr. chayes. yes; he directed me to gather together the files in the department on oswald, and to prepare a report to be available for him the first thing in the morning covering as best we could within that time span the contacts that oswald had with the department. we got the passport file. we got the security office file. we got the special consular services file which covered mrs. oswald's visa and the repatriation loan. i think those three files were the ones that we had. it may have been there was a smaller fourth file, but i think those three were the ones. representative ford. what would that smaller fourth file be? mr. chayes. i can't remember. it was duplicates if it was anything. oh, that is right, we had a visa file and an scs file so those were the four. the scs file, that is special consular services in the office, in the bureau of security and consular affairs. representative ford. you got this order on or about o'clock the d of november? mr. chayes. the d; yes, sir. representative ford. and you issued orders to have these files brought in, or did you go and get them yourself? mr. chayes. no. representative ford. or what happened? mr. chayes. i issued orders to have them brought in. i called--i am trying to think how we got them. [turning to mr. ehrlich.] did you go down and get them? mr. ehrlich and mr. lowenfeld, another of my people, we worked through the night on this, the three of us all together and it may be that the two of them went down to get them. i don't think we just called over the telephone and asked them to be brought up. (discussion off the record.) mr. chayes. it is my recollection that one of these two gentlemen, either mr. ehrlich or mr. lowenfeld acting for me, went down to pick up the file. mr. ehrlich thinks he recalls that one of the files was already being examined by the secret service or the fbi, the passport file. my own recollection, which i am sure of, is that later on in the evening, about o'clock or o'clock, we established contact with the fbi and they came over and read the files in our office at the same time we were reading them. now actually there was nothing in any of the files that wasn't duplicated in the others in essence. i mean much of our files consisted of fbi or cia reports. much of their files consisted of these letters and documents that you have seen that we had come into possession of when oswald attempted to renounce. we worked, as i say, through the night. one thing that we did other than go through the files was to go down to the lookout card file to see whether there was a lookout card for oswald. we got mr. johnson, who is the general counsel of the passport office, to open up the lookout card file which is a large room that has a combination lock on the door, and is also plugged into a general alarm system, got into the room and examined the lookout card file and found that there was no card for oswald. this was the first experience i had ever had with the lookout card file, and i said all the things that you have said here, why wasn't there a card. but we were very careful in doing that to record, mr. lowenfeld, mr. ehrlich and i and mr. johnson and mr. schwartz all went in and we all mutually recorded what steps we took. i think there are notes of that, if anybody is interested in them, but i don't think there is any need to see them. nothing of significance happened. we did find---- mr. dulles. may i ask is the passport office under you as assistant secretary and legal adviser? mr. chayes. no, sir; the passport office is under mr. schwartz. mr. dulles. under mr. schwartz? mr. chayes. it is bureau of security and consular affairs. mr. dulles. and he is directly under the secretary of state. mr. chayes. yes; he is assistant secretary. his chain of command goes through the deputy under secretary for administration, but he like i has the rank of assistant secretary and he operates a bureau just as i do. the legal adviser's office is a separate bureau. we did prepare a - or -page document by dawn the next day which in fact is the basis of this report, the commission document no. . mr. coleman. we will give that commission exhibit no. , your first report. mr. chayes. the one we did overnight? mr. coleman. no; the one that you sent us. it is commission exhibit no. . it has been given a number. mr. dulles. i wonder if the witness would identify this and verify the circumstances under which it was prepared? mr. chayes. this report, commission exhibit no. , is not the one that we prepared overnight. this is the report we prepared for the department of justice before the commission was appointed when the department of justice itself was looking into the matter. what i say is that commission exhibit no. is essentially an expansion and elaboration of the document that we prepared that night. representative ford. there have been fears expressed by some that somehow we don't have before the commission all of the documents that are in the hands of the department of state or any other agency pertaining to oswald. you can only testify as to the department of state. do you testify that we have been given everything that was at any time in the files of lee harvey oswald? mr. chayes. to my knowledge that is the case. however, let me say again what i said at the beginning of the testimony. we have constantly and persistently gone around to all the places in the department, and that has been done under my supervision, and we have made very aggressive efforts to assure that every office or subdivision of the department that might have documents pertaining to oswald should give them to the commission, through me to the commission. i think there was one stage where perhaps that wasn't understood, but we got that corrected. then later on, as i say, there was the moscow embassy just sent us a whole load of documents. they said "we think you have got duplicates of all of these so we didn't send them in earlier" and it turned out that some of them we didn't have duplicates of. i now think--as i say, it is very hard to prove a negative, but we have made all the efforts that i think are humanly possible to get these documents out of the files, and i think you have them all, with the exception of some documents originating in other agencies where by arrangement with the staff they are getting those documents from the originating agency. mr. coleman. mr. chayes, at this point could we mark as commission exhibit no. , a letter from you to mr. rankin under date of may , , in which you sent us a complete copy of the files, and in which you numbered each one of the files from file i through xii, and then within each file, each document was numbered and there was also indicated the number of pages which would be in each particular document? will you identify that? (commission exhibit no. was marked for identification and received in evidence.) mr. chayes. yes; we sent that letter, a copy of which is commission exhibit no. , in response to the request of the staff in order that we would be able exactly to answer this kind of question. i should add that i think we sent some additional documents since then, those that came back from moscow in response to our last request. mr. coleman. i would next like to mark as commission exhibit no. , a letter from mr. chayes to mr. rankin under date of june , , in which you sent us the file which you recently received from the moscow embassy and indicated that that file would be marked file xiii. (commission exhibit no. was marked for identification and received in evidence.) mr. chayes. yes; that is the letter and it contains also the text of the moscow telegram explaining that they thought all the documents they were pouching were duplicates. mr. coleman. with the files you gave us or sent us along with commission exhibits nos. and , as far as you know you have sent the commission every file which the state department has, referring to oswald? mr. chayes. that is correct. mr. dulles. were you in general charge, under the secretary, of the correspondence which has been carried on with the soviet union inquiring as to oswald and to obtain such information as we could from the soviet union with respect to the oswald case? mr. chayes. well, i talked with the secretary about the commission's interest in making an approach to the soviet union, and then he made the decision that the department was willing to proceed with that approach. i participated in the drafting of the documents, and i participated in the transmissions to the commission. but the approach was made by the secretary himself, and i did not observe the approach. mr. dulles. was that made orally as well as in writing or should we ask that of the secretary of state? mr. chayes. you can ask it of the secretary and i think you would get a fuller answer from him, but he did make an oral presentation at the time that he handed the note, and the chief justice's letter, to the russian ambassador. mr. dulles. in view of your knowledge of this situation, do you think that we have got all we can get from the soviet union or is there any other way in which we could get anything additional? mr. chayes. well, i think probably, the best respondent to that question would also be the secretary. i think it probably has to be recognized that the decision to give what documents were given was a carefully considered decision, probably made at very high levels within the soviet government, and not done lightly or without an examination of alternatives, and therefore, it seems to me unlikely that one would be able to change any such decision. but again i say i am really not the best man to ask that. mr. coleman. mr. chayes, just two other documents i would like you to identify for the record. one is your letter of may , , which has been marked commission exhibit no. , which answers certain questions directed to you by mr. rankin, and it is the document that you referred to several times in your testimony. mr. chayes. yes; this is my letter, commission exhibit no. . it contains the answers to the questions which were in attachment b to mr. rankin's letter, and concern essentially matters within the united states and within the state department here. mr. coleman. your answers to attachment a were in commission exhibit no. . we have already identified that in the record. mr. chayes. yes; that is correct. there was a delay between the two letters because attachment a involved questions about activities in russia, and some questions about the soviet union, and although we prepared the answers in the first instance in the united states in the department, we wanted to send the replies to the soviet union for review by our embassy there. and that accounted for the time discrepancy in the answer to the two attachments. mr. coleman. then in the attachment a we also asked you a question in reference to a memorandum from mr. mcvickar and you under date of april , , sent us mr. mcvickar's memorandum which has been marked as commission exhibit no. . but i would like to mark as commission exhibit no. your covering letter. (commission exhibit no. was marked for identification and received in evidence.) mr. chayes. yes; this is my letter. it is dated april , , and it is marked commission exhibit no. , and it clears up a factual question that was left at large in mr. mcvickar's memorandum. mr. coleman. mr. chairman, at this time i would like to offer for admission into evidence commission exhibits nos. , , and . i would also like to note that the attachment to commission exhibit no. was marked as commission exhibit no. and has already been admitted into evidence. mr. dulles. they shall be admitted. (commission exhibits nos. , , and were marked for identification and received in evidence.) mr. dulles. may i ask this question? have all of these been previously identified in the testimony. mr. coleman. yes, sir; they have been identified and marked. (discussion off the record.) mr. coleman. back on the record. that is all the examination i have of mr. chayes. i do want to express my appreciation and thanks for the detail in which he gave us information and the method in which he answered all the questions. representative ford. i have no further questions. mr. dulles. i have no further questions. thank you very much. you have been very full, very frank, very helpful. mr. chayes. i am glad to do what i can. testimony of bernice waterman mr. dulles. would you kindly rise and raise your right hand. do you swear the testimony you will give before this commission is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth so help you god? miss waterman. i do. mr. dulles. would you please advise miss waterman of the general purpose of the testimony we will ask of her. mr. coleman. miss waterman was with the department of state until , at which time she retired. miss waterman was the adjudicator in the oswald case, and she is being called to testify with respect to certain memorandums and actions she took in connection with lee harvey oswald. these actions dealt with the question whether he had expatriated himself, and whether a passport should be reissued to him in . and also she has some information concerning the waiver for marina under (g). mr. dulles. miss waterman, i wonder if you would just give us a brief outline of your experience with the state department. miss waterman. well, i entered the passport office in march of , and i was there until i retired in february , and during that time i progressed from the position of typist to working on citizenship cases, and became an adjudicator. mr. dulles. can you hear? miss waterman. then i became in charge of a section adjudicating citizenship cases from certain places. i continued in citizenship work until i retired. mr. dulles. would you proceed, mr. coleman. mr. coleman. miss waterman, i have had marked documents beginning with commission exhibit no. and going through commission exhibit no. , and just before you came in, i showed you a set of those files. have you had opportunity to review those files? miss waterman. yes; i did look over the state department file. i don't mean state department files, i mean passport office files on oswald. mr. coleman. and i take it that you would agree that every one of the documents i showed you was a document which you prepared, or was a document which was sent to you and you had occasion to read it prior to the time i gave it to you today? miss waterman. i believe so. mr. coleman. now would you tell the commission the first time, to the best of your knowledge, that you heard the name oswald and in what connection? miss waterman. well it was rather seeing it in connection with the---- mr. coleman. i call your attention to commission document no. , which is the second document in the folder i gave you, a telegram dated november , . miss waterman. the telegram--this is a reply. mr. coleman. yes; i am talking about the telegram dated november , . miss waterman. yes; i recall from examination of the file that on november , , i saw the telegram from the embassy at moscow reporting that mr. oswald had called there, and that was sent for reply. sent to me for reply. mr. coleman. i show you commission exhibit no. , which is a copy of a telegram from moscow to the secretary of state, dated october , , and i ask you whether that is the telegram you saw on november the d? miss waterman. yes; this is the telegram, and this is the telegram to which i prepared an interim reply on the same day received, november , . mr. coleman. and the reply that you prepared is commission exhibit no. . that is the telegram of november ? it is the second document in the file before you. miss waterman. yes. mr. coleman. and that telegram indicated that it was prepared---- mr. dulles. miss waterman's file doesn't have the exhibit numbers on it so you will have to identify it in some other way. miss waterman. yes. mr. coleman. that telegram shows that it was prepared by you because your name appears in the lower left hand corner, is that right? miss waterman. that is right. mr. coleman. now below that you indicate "clearances ee: sov: v. james in substance paraphrased by telephone." will you indicate to the commission what that notation means? miss waterman. this is a telegram, isn't it? mr. coleman. yes. miss waterman. well, as i recall all telegrams which we dispatch to embassies or offices within the iron curtain countries were sent at least with the lowest classification, official use only, and we had previously received instructions that the telegrams which we prepared on any subjects going to the offices in the iron curtain countries should be cleared with the desk officers of the appropriate divisions, that is ee and so on. mr. dulles. geographical divisions? miss waterman. geographical divisions, yes. mr. coleman. could you identify for the record who miss v. james is? miss waterman. well, virginia james, an officer in ee. mr. coleman. ee means? miss waterman. eastern europe. mr. coleman. and sov? miss waterman. sov, soviet division. mr. coleman. so the commission exhibit no. , which is a telegram---- miss waterman. yes. mr. coleman. indicates that the telegram was at least communicated to and cleared by the soviet desk in washington before it was sent out? miss waterman. well yes; i think that one reason that it was always cleared was that the geographic divisions were particularly interested in the wording of our replies. i think they just wanted the general idea of whether or not we were using the proper classification. mr. coleman. and in that telegram of november , , you advised the embassy in moscow that if oswald insisted on renouncing u.s. citizenship, that the statute precludes the embassy from withholding his right to do so regardless of his application pending with the soviet government, is that correct? miss waterman. yes. mr. coleman. now thereafter did you have anything else to do with the oswald matter prior to march ? to help you, miss waterman, march was the time in which you prepared the refusal card. miss waterman. yes--refusal sheet. mr. coleman. between sending this telegram on november , , and march , did you personally have any knowledge or anything else that was going on as far as oswald was concerned? miss waterman. well, not certainly unless it is in the file. i would think that in the meantime we received some kind of further report from the embassy, but i am not---- mr. coleman. well, we have had marked and put in the record the various reports that were received, and you say that as all the reports came in that you had opportunity to read them? miss waterman. yes; of course that isn't too long from the latter part of to . quite often in cases of this nature, the appropriate embassy might submit reports which didn't need replies, just information submitted. mr. coleman. well, there was a report submitted by the embassy on november , , which has already been identified as commission exhibit no. . miss waterman. yes. mr. coleman. and i assume that you received a copy or saw that report? miss waterman. yes; i did. mr. coleman. then on or about march , , you had occasion to prepare a card which has as its head the name or the word "refusal." miss waterman. that is not a card. that is a sheet. mr. coleman. that is a sheet which is marked as commission exhibit no. . now will you indicate to the commission the circumstances under which you prepared that card and why you prepared that card? miss waterman. this was prepared after the receipt, i believe, of further correspondence from the embassy, which indicated that oswald was--that it would be possible that he might want to return to the united states. and it was customary to make this red refusal sheet in our office. mr. coleman. what was your office? miss waterman. in the adjudication part of the office, to put a flag on the case for future reference. mr. coleman. after you made the refusal card which has been marked---- miss waterman. not a card. mr. coleman. pardon me, refusal sheet---- miss waterman. refusal sheet. mr. coleman. has been marked as commission exhibit no. , what would be the next step in the system to make sure that mr. oswald could not use his passport or come back to the united states without the department having notice? miss waterman. well, in the case of this being a classified file, the file would have been returned to the classified file section as i recall, and there would be a note on there to please index the refusal sheet, and then if there were any other instructions, for instance, another office might want the file or ask for it, if no one wanted it, we would ordinarily ask to have the refusal sheet carded and the case filed. mr. coleman. as a result of the preparation of the refusal sheet, would someone else or you have a responsibility to prepare something which is called a lookout card? miss waterman. at that time, at least--i don't know what the procedure is now, i have no idea; at that time, at least, the refusal card as i call it, or lookout card would have been prepared in the records section of the passport office. in other words, a part of the section which handled the files. mr. coleman. after you prepared the refusal sheet which is commission exhibit no. ---- miss waterman. yes; i wrote that myself. mr. coleman. would you then give--how would the records section know that a lookout card should be prepared? miss waterman. well, for one thing the refusal sheet would be placed on top of the file, and i am sure there would be a note to flag the attention of the records people that a refusal was there to be carded. but in any event, it would be on top of the file, and there would have been nothing on the right hand margin. there would have been no name. there would have been nothing put on there in our particular office. mr. coleman. in other words, you say---- miss waterman. in our adjudication part. mr. coleman. are you saying that oswald, lee harvey, would not have been---- miss waterman. no, no; the sheet was completely blank as to the margin. at no time would anything have been entered there, in our adjudication part. mr. coleman. in commission exhibit no. , you then say when you physically prepared the refusal sheet, the only thing that was prepared is the typewritten material, is that correct? miss waterman. the typewritten red sheet. if you have the file, it is right here. mr. coleman. you say that after you prepared that, you would physically place that red sheet on the top of the passport file, is that correct? miss waterman. well, now this was placed--i think there was a communication which went out at the same time. mr. coleman. you are talking about the operations memorandum dated march , ? miss waterman. i am talking about the operations memorandum, yes. mr. coleman. which has been marked as commission exhibit no. ? miss waterman. now that would have gone to file, to the file with this operations memorandum, and the refusal sheet. mr. coleman. you prepared the operations memorandum also? miss waterman. yes; now i see that was mailed days after it was prepared. in the meantime someone else was looking at it. mr. coleman. was it your responsibility actually to see that the lookout card was prepared? miss waterman. no; i wouldn't think so, no. mr. coleman. who would have that responsibility? miss waterman. well, in the first place the cases were examined by the records people before being filed, and no one would certainly be supposed to file a refusal sheet without an indication that he had had a card made. mr. coleman. would the indication that the card was made be put on the refusal sheet? miss waterman. yes. mr. coleman. would you look at the original of the state department records? miss waterman. yes; i am looking at it. mr. coleman. was it put on the refusal sheet? miss waterman. well, it looks to me as if someone started to handle this for the refusal card, or lookout card as you call it, because the name was typed on. mr. coleman. it was written on. miss waterman. written on, yes. i believe that to complete that operation, the designation of the citizenship designation of the department of state at that time at least, , should have been placed on there. mr. coleman. what does mean? miss waterman. that is the department's classification of citizenship. mr. coleman. by looking at that file, is there anything else that you can examine to be able to tell the commission whether in your judgment the actual lookout card was ever prepared? miss waterman. no; i wouldn't be able to say. i do notice here that the case was called for from the files a few days after it went to file, and that apparently was occasioned by a new communication coming in from our embassy at moscow. mr. dulles. who called for it, can you tell from that? miss waterman. apparently we received--this was called for from--here is a call slip right here. i am looking at it. which means that something new had been received and we wanted the file again. mr. coleman. could you tell me the number that is on that call sheet? you are looking at file x. it is file x she is looking at? mr. ehrlich. yes. miss waterman. x- . mr. coleman. x- . miss waterman. i might say that in the meantime during the time from november up into , beginning about early in february , i was replaced in this section or branch by an attorney and a member of the bar, and at this time i was then the assistant of the section, and not the head of it. mr. coleman. well, was the attorney that replaced you g. w. masterton? miss waterman. yes. mr. coleman. i would like to ask you to identify commission exhibit no. . is that a copy of the sheet you referred to, to indicate the file had been called for? miss waterman. that is right. a new report had been received and our control clerk, we call her, our person looking after the records in our particular section had made that call slip for the file. mr. coleman. is there anything else in the original file which you could look at to try to advise us whether you think in your judgment a lookout card was ever prepared? miss waterman. well, i wouldn't be able to know. all i could say is it is very surprising, because it seems to me that we had--well, i could not say how many lookout cards and refusal cards on all kinds of subjects. and i can only guess that this file was caught up in some large number of files that were on hand to have refusal cards or lookout cards made, or something of that nature, or that the process of having the card made was interrupted by the receipt of the new material from our embassy at moscow. mr. coleman. but---- mr. dulles. could i ask one question? who would make out lookout cards in the normal process? would it be quite a number of people, or one particular office? miss waterman. i am not sure about that, mr. dulles. that was completely another area, and i don't know. mr. dulles. outside of the passport department entirely, was it? miss waterman. oh, no. mr. dulles. in the passport department? miss waterman. oh, yes. mr. dulles. miss knight could tell us that. miss waterman. in the records part of the passport office. now, at one time i know that the cards were made in a certain area. then i know that later on, and probably prior to this time, we had been requested not to forward any kind of classified files to the usual place for having these cards made--we should forward them to the classified files section, which would take it up from there, and give them to the proper person to have a card made. mr. coleman. miss waterman, it is your testimony that based upon the red refusal sheet that you prepared, and also the operations memorandums which have been marked respectively commission exhibit no. and commission exhibit no. , that you had done all you were supposed to do, and that the file then should have been passed over to somebody else, and a lookout card should have been prepared? miss waterman. yes, yes; that was our procedure at that time at least. mr. coleman. now, after march , , and prior to february , in that period, did your department, or did you take other actions in connection with the oswald case, with the hope that you would finally be able to reach a decision on oswald, as to whether he had expatriated himself or not? miss waterman. i don't think there was too much going on in the file in . mr. coleman. well, i would like to call your attention to---- miss waterman. but in ---- mr. coleman. before we get to , i would like to call your attention to the memorandum from mr. white to mr. hazelton, dated july , , and the next document, which is a handwritten piece of paper, dated - - . do you have that? your number should be x- . i show you the document which is marked in your file x- , and it has been given commission exhibit no. . now, is that your handwriting on that document? mr. ehrlich. might i interject at this time? in looking at the originals of these i notice that x- is actually two memorandums. they were photostated as one, and thus probably you cannot actually read either one. mr. coleman. well, i am referring to the one on top. is that your writing "took initial action, action"---- miss waterman. no; that is mr. masterton--the memorandum on the little larger size below was a memorandum, informal memorandum, which i sent to my section chief, mr. masterton. mr. coleman. could you indicate what you said in your memorandum? miss waterman. yes; i said, "mr. masterton, scs, is writing to mother on welfare aspect of lee harvey oswald. last two paragraphs of moscow dispatch , - - appeared to be for ppt reply." i believe that was a letter which had been prepared in scs--you know what that is. mr. coleman. yes. miss waterman. and had been forwarded to our office for clearance, for our initial, before it was mailed, to reply to some inquiry of the mother. mr. coleman. now, on top of that memorandum you read, that you prepared, there is another memorandum, isn't there? miss waterman. yes. mr. coleman. now, could you read that into the record? miss waterman. yes; "scs. took initial action on action copy, case of split action. copy our action to go to scs." mr. coleman. do you know or do you have any knowledge what they meant about case is split action? miss waterman. well, it has been a long time since i have seen the material. but i believe that the mother, mrs. oswald, in writing to the department, to the secretary, probably brought up various questions about her son. now--questions which related to his welfare or physical repatriation, or something of that type, which would come under the jurisdiction of the special consular services, should be answered there. any inquiries which were about his citizenship or his passport, anything that came within the purview of the passport office, should have a reply drafted by miss knight's office, or elsewhere in the office. mr. coleman. in other words, you are saying that the phrase, split action, on commission exhibit no. , doesn't mean that---- miss waterman. the decision was split; no. mr. coleman. it just means that different offices in the department would have to make different decisions, or take different action? miss waterman. yes; and i think that most of mrs. oswald's letters were quite involved, and brought up several questions. (at this point, mr. dulles withdrew from the hearing room.) mr. coleman. then the next document which i want to ask you questions about is your x- . miss waterman. yes. mr. coleman. that we have marked as commission exhibit no. . now, this letter, though signed by miss knight, was prepared by you? miss waterman. yes. mr. coleman. and it was a reply to an inquiry made by congressman wright? miss waterman. yes. mr. coleman. with respect to the oswald case. miss waterman. yes; this was--we probably either received a memorandum from scs or telephone call, something of that sort. mr. coleman. the next contact you had with the oswald case was as a result of the embassy despatch dated february , , which is x- ( ). miss waterman. are you talking about the department's despatch? (at this point, mr. dulles reentered the hearing room.) mr. coleman. yes; despatch. the foreign service despatch. miss waterman. yes; our despatch to the embassy. mr. coleman. i beg your pardon. it is a despatch from the embassy to you. miss waterman. yes; that is right. mr. coleman. which we have marked as commission exhibit no. . miss waterman. yes. mr. coleman. when that was received in washington, you got a copy of it, did you not? miss waterman. well, i think--we seem to have the original in our file. mr. coleman. yes; you saw the document? miss waterman. yes. mr. coleman. and then as a result of seeing the document on march , , you prepared a draft of the instruction which should go to moscow in response, is that correct? miss waterman. yes. mr. coleman. and that is in the file as x- , and we have marked it as commission exhibit no. . and the draft that you prepared which was attached to commission exhibit no. is the next document, which is x- , which we have marked as commission exhibit no. , is that correct? miss waterman. you mean the copy of the---- mr. coleman. the proposed state department instruction. miss waterman. yes; i see that. mr. coleman. and it indicates on the copy that the original was not sent, is that correct? miss waterman. that is right. nothing was sent. mr. dulles. can i get this clear now? i am not sure--which was the document that was not sent? mr. coleman. that is x- (commission exhibit no. ). mr. dulles. could you identify that for the record--because just reference to documents in our record would be meaningless to the reader. i think we ought to identify each document as we can, because i am lost completely. mr. coleman. it is commission exhibit no. , which is a draft of the state department instruction to be sent to the embassy in moscow, as a result of the embassy's dispatch of february . mr. dulles. and this was drafted on march , was it? mr. coleman. yes. miss waterman. yes. mr. dulles. and you, i gather, miss waterman, drafted this? miss waterman. i drafted this, and then apparently we had--everyone had second thoughts on some of the statements in there, and i believe that it was at this time--wait a minute. we sent this to miss knight's office for the special attention of mr. hickey. mr. coleman. and is that the memorandum dated march , ? miss waterman. yes; that is right. mr. coleman. which has been given commission exhibit no. . miss waterman. yes. mr. coleman. and from that memorandum, you indicate that your proposed instructions were that, one, that the passport should be mailed back to mr. oswald only under proper safeguards---- miss waterman. now, are you talking about what wasn't sent or what finally was? mr. coleman. the memorandum of march , . miss waterman. yes; these memorandums were prepared by my superiors. in other words, this looked a little different and more important by that time. representative ford. in other words, the state department document no. x- came back to you from higher authority? miss waterman. no; i prepared the instruction, and i sent it to mr. kupiec, who by that time was in charge of our section--mr. masterton having been given other duties. and this went into the office of the chief of our division, of the foreign adjudications division. and mr. cacciatore, who was the assistant chief of the division, drafted a memorandum in mr. white's name to go to miss knight's office, and that is a memorandum of march , . mr. coleman. well, that has been given commission exhibit no. . it is in your files as x- . miss waterman. right. mr. coleman. and you had no part in connection with the drafting of that memorandum? miss waterman. no, no; our branch had sent the case to our division chief, either to comment or authorize the mailing of the instruction which i had prepared. mr. coleman. and then after this memorandum of march , , was drafted, a decision was finally reached in the department as to the form of the state department instruction which is in your file as x- ? miss waterman. yes. mr. coleman. and we have marked it as commission exhibit no. . miss waterman. yes mr. coleman. and that is the instruction that was actually sent to the embassy? miss waterman. sent to the embassy; yes. that was a replacement of the instruction which i had originally drafted, and i redrafted that according to the dictates of the memorandums which had been exchanged with our office and miss knight's office. representative ford. may i ask a question here, mr. coleman? on the memo of march , , commission exhibit no. , the last sentence reads as follows: "for the best interests of the united states, therefore, and as the possession of a passport might facilitate his obtention of an exit visa it is believed that we should do everything within our power to facilitate oswald's entry into the united states." who would have prepared the march , memo that contained that quotation? miss waterman. that was prepared by mr. cacciatore, who was the assistant chief of the foreign operations division, in which i worked. and mr. john white was his superior, and mr. white initialed the memo going to miss knight's office, to mr. hickey. mr. dulles. who is mr. hickey? miss waterman. who is he? mr. dulles. i meant at this time what was his position? miss waterman. well, i believe at that time his title was--i wouldn't like to say definitely--i believe he was the deputy chief of the passport office. mr. dulles. under miss knight? miss waterman. under miss knight, yes. mr. dulles. i would like to ask one question about x- ( ). mr. coleman. that is commission exhibit no. . mr. dulles. that is the cable sent--cable of instructions sent on the lee harvey oswald matter to the american embassy in moscow. this relates to---- miss waterman. now, you are talking about the state department instruction? mr. dulles. that is correct. in paragraph there is reference to the circumstances under which his passport can be returned, and there is this phrase: "his passport may be delivered to him on a personal basis only." what does that mean? miss waterman. i think it meant deliver it to him in person. mr. dulles. i see--deliver it to him in person. miss waterman. yes; i think those are the words of mr. hickey. i believe that somewhere in the file there is a memorandum which mr. hickey returned to mr. white's division, giving his views. mr. dulles. and that may be qualified by the last sentence here, suggesting that it would not be wise to send it through the mails? miss waterman. yes; in other words, the memorandum which mr. hickey returned to us, with our proposed instruction, was used as a basis for our action. mr. dulles. it was to be given to him personally, and not transmitted through the mails. miss waterman. i think that is what it means. mr. coleman. and, also, the state department instructions were that he was to get the passport only after the embassy had thoroughly questioned oswald regarding the circumstances of his residence in the soviet union, and his possible commitment of an act or acts of expatriation? miss waterman. yes. mr. coleman. miss waterman, i note on the side of the state department instruction a notation that cia furnished copy "on case by me, - - ." do you know who wrote that, and what that means? miss waterman. well, i think the person has initialed it who wrote it. mr. coleman. who is chs? miss waterman. i think that is mr. seeley--mr. carroll seeley. mr. coleman. carroll h. seeley, jr.? miss waterman. if that is the way his name is listed in the book. mr. coleman. is he an attorney in the passport office? miss waterman. i don't know what he is now. so far as i know, he was an attorney at that time. he was in--in the legal division of the passport office. mr. coleman. i also note in the next paper which is attached to commission exhibit no. we have marked as commission exhibit , there is a reference sheet---- mr. dulles. what is that paper? mr. coleman. it is physically attached. mr. dulles. you see, exhibit numbers won't appear---- mr. coleman. well, it is a reference sheet dated - - , which indicates that a thermofax copy of the department of state instruction no. a- , dated april , , was sent to the cia. is that correct? miss waterman. i know nothing about that. that is something that was entirely outside of our adjudication division, our foreign operations division. mr. coleman. but the reference indicates that it was prepared by robert d. johnson, chief counsel, passport office, under date of - - , is that correct? miss waterman. i am looking at it. yes. but that was nothing that emanated from our part of the passport office. mr. coleman. after you prepared and had sent forward the department of state instruction dated april , , you then, on or about may , , received the embassy foreign despatch of that date, is that correct? miss waterman. yes, yes. mr. coleman. and that despatch, which is your no. x- , has been given commission exhibit no. , states that the embassy had received another letter from oswald, is that correct? miss waterman. yes; i am looking at a copy. mr. coleman. and also the despatch---- mr. dulles. would you identify that a little bit? mr. coleman. the despatch is from the embassy to the department of state, and it is commission exhibit no. , written by mr. snyder on may , , and it indicates, one, that the embassy has received another letter from mr. oswald, and it also indicates that oswald was married to a russian woman, and it indicates that oswald has informed the embassy that he had an internal soviet passport in which he was designated as "without citizenship." and the embassy despatch actually has as a copy the letter which mr. oswald sent to the embassy in may . miss waterman. yes. mr. coleman. and you received that in washington some time shortly after march , . miss waterman. we received it in our particular office on june . mr. coleman. as a result of receiving---- mr. dulles. just one second. june---- miss waterman. i am going by our automatic clock stamps on the reverse of the original. mr. dulles. you received it on june ? miss waterman. yes; we received it in our action office june , . mr. coleman. after you received it, you then considered whether the embassy should return to mr. oswald his passport. and your decision as finally made is reflected in the state department instruction dated july , , which is your x- , which has been marked commission exhibit no. , is that correct? miss waterman. yes; i am looking at a copy. mr. coleman. in those instructions, you said that mr. oswald could be given his passport, is that correct? miss waterman. well, yes--because we are in effect agreeing with the suggestion of the embassy. we are telling the embassy that we---- mr. coleman. you are agreeing with their despatch of may , , which has been identified for the record as commission exhibit no. . miss waterman. what is this word? oh--"seek." mr. coleman. is that correct? miss waterman. what was your question again now? mr. coleman. i am saying what you were agreeing to was the proposed action of the embassy as set forth in its foreign service despatch dated may , ? miss waterman. yes; but i see we also note that the embassy intended to contact the department again before granting any documentation to oswald. mr. dulles. off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. dulles. back on the record. mr. coleman. i note on commission exhibit no. , which is your x- , that on the side there is written "pink copy of this sent to ee:sov miss james, bw - - ." miss waterman. yes; i am looking at that. mr. coleman. do you recall whether miss james asked you to send her a copy, or did you just send her a copy without being requested? miss waterman. no; i would not recall, really. we tried to keep--since there were many interests involved here, we did try to keep the geographic division up to date on what we were doing, so that they would have more or less a complete picture of the case. mr. coleman. then i would like to next call your attention to your document which is x- . miss waterman. yes. mr. coleman. that is a memorandum which you prepared, commission exhibit no. , in which you state that miss james called and said that she wanted to know what reply had you made to the moscow despatch , july , , in the case of oswald. and you stated that the draft reply was in preparation, and you also said that miss james said that the communication should be cleared with the sov, and then you make a comment that you never heard that the passport section's citizenship decisions should be routed to sov for clearance. miss waterman. that is right. mr. coleman. nevertheless, you indicated in the memorandum that you would indicate that the sov had a special interest in the reply to the despatch, is that correct? miss waterman. yes; that is right. mr. coleman. did you discuss with anybody in the department miss james' request? miss waterman. well, i don't recall. i don't know. i wouldn't recall right now. mr. coleman. well, is this the only time, to your knowledge, where the sov had made a request in connection with a passport? miss waterman. oh, no; i would not say that. i don't think so; no. i think probably a great many of our communications went out as office memoranda, and they received copies of them in the division anyhow. but i think this was probably more to avoid confusion in having classified files be traveling around the different areas of the department. we could send a copy of an "om" without trouble. but handing the files around was another matter. and we didn't put them around any more than we had to. mr. coleman. the next document in the sheaf of papers i gave you is the operations memorandum dated august , , prepared by you---- miss waterman. yes. mr. coleman. and we have given it commission exhibit no. . miss waterman. yes. mr. coleman. in that you indicate that you concur in the conclusion of the embassy that there is available no information and/or evidence to show that mr. oswald has expatriated himself under the pertinent laws of the united states. miss waterman. that is right. mr. coleman. did you review the entire files which you had in the passport office on oswald before you wrote this memorandum? miss waterman. yes; our file was all together. mr. coleman. and you also had the benefit of the various embassy despatches which were sent prior to august , ? miss waterman. oh, yes. well, the part that concerned his citizenship, certainly, was with our file. mr. coleman. and reviewing the whole file, you, as the adjudicator, determined on august , , that there was nothing in the file which would show that mr. oswald had expatriated himself? miss waterman. that is correct. representative ford. when you say "no information and/or evidence to show that mr. oswald"---- miss waterman. no information or evidence. well, that is the way i worded it. no information or evidence. we would have to have evidence to hold up any action on him. and, in addition to having no evidence, we also had no information. representative ford. did you have the information that he had come in and presented a statement to mr. snyder that he wanted to renounce his citizenship? miss waterman. yes; but he hasn't done so. there was no place that he could have done so, except at the embassy, under a specified form, and upon specified documents. representative ford. in other words, you were relying upon the need for this particular document? miss waterman. well, in the first place, when he came in--as i believe mr. snyder said, or whoever reported from the embassy--and threw down his passport, he apparently was a disgruntled young man--and that is not the first time a passport has been thrown down on a consular officer's desk. and i think that we had--no--in other words, it looked as if he were already regretting his first action. he was weakening a little bit because he was not being accorded any kind of recognition in the soviet union. in other words, he was---- representative ford. but the subsequent evidence, where you say he was changing his mind, came about years later. on the other hand, there was some evidence, when he first went to the soviet union, october , , that he at least had an intention to renounce his american citizenship. he simply had not signed the actual form that is prescribed by the regulations. miss waterman. that is right. he had not. and there was no indication that actually he intended to do that. he apparently derived some kind of satisfaction from his appearing at the embassy with an ambiguous statement. but there was nothing there to show that he actually had an intention of renouncing his citizenship under the law. representative ford. i must differ with you. that first statement that he submitted was not very ambiguous. miss waterman. well, i think probably he made several. but, in any event--he---- representative ford. i do think i ought to read what he said on october . miss waterman. yes; i believe i recall that. representative ford. here is a letter or a statement in lee harvey oswald's handwriting, which says: "i, lee harvey oswald, do hereby request that my present citizenship in the united states of america be revoked. "i have entered the soviet union for the express purpose of applying for citizenship in the soviet union, through the means of naturalization. "my request for citizenship is now pending before the supreme soviet of the u.s.s.r. "i take these steps for political reasons. my request for the revoking of my american citizenship is made only after the longest and most serious considerations. "i affirm that my allegiance is to the union of soviet socialist republics." signed, "lee harvey oswald." i don't think that is very ambiguous. miss waterman. well, perhaps not. but the procedure was explained to him, and he, as i recall, took no interest in completing any forms to make his renunciation of american citizenship official. representative ford. the only question that i raise, miss waterman, is in light of this evidence, your statement that there is available no information and/or evidence to show that mr. oswald has expatriated himself under the pertinent laws of the united states---- miss waterman. i think that is correct. i think the statement is correct. representative ford. that is a very technical response, or technical statement. i think there was evidence that he had placed before government officials his desire to renounce his citizenship. mr. coleman. did anyone advise you or instruct you that you should make the adjudication that you made as reflected in the august , , memorandum, or is this a decision that you made after you had reviewed the file? miss waterman. well, i made the decision and prepared the communication which went through my superiors, and they apparently agreed with me. mr. coleman. can you, by looking at the file, particularly the document marked x- , which is the operations memorandum dated august , , tell us what superior reviewed the memorandum before it went forth to the embassy? miss waterman. yes; the initials there, hfk, are mr. kupiec, who was my area chief, and i believe that up at the top, on the second line of the operations memorandum, opposite "department of state" i believe that those were the initials of mr. white, who was in charge of the foreign operations division. and then this was also cleared in our legal division. now, that would not be for citizenship purposes, but it would be there for reference. mr. coleman. and who was chs? miss waterman. that is the same person you mentioned awhile ago, mr. seeley. mr. coleman. then as a result of determining that there was no evidence or information showing that mr. oswald had expatriated himself, you then indicated that the passport of mr. oswald could be renewed, is that correct? miss waterman. yes. representative ford. may i ask a question here, mr. coleman? referring again to the memorandum of august , , the first paragraph, where you say, "we concur in the conclusion of the embassy that there is available no information and/or evidence to show that mr. oswald has expatriated himself under the pertinent laws of the united states"--where is their documentation, if any, that the embassy has come to that conclusion? mr. coleman. sir, i think she is referring to the despatch of july , , which is identified as commission exhibit no. . representative ford. do you come to that conclusion based on the total content of the july , , memo from the embassy in moscow, or something specifically set forth in that memorandum? miss waterman. well, i think all of the material together. in other words, oswald was not documented as a soviet citizen. apparently he didn't expect to be. the embassy had questioned him. and, in addition to their knowing that during his visits to the embassy itself he had not expatriated himself, they received no information from him in what questioning they could do that he had performed any act at all to expatriate himself under u.s. laws. representative ford. mr. coleman, do you have that paper we had yesterday, where the cross-out was present? mr. coleman. yes, sir; here it is. representative ford. on commission exhibit no. , oswald crossed out "have not"---- mr. dulles. what is the date of that, mr. ford? representative ford. it is dated---- mr. coleman. july , , and it is oswald's application for renewal of passport. mr. dulles. i remember the paper. that is subsequent to this document here that we are discussing now. mr. coleman. done at the same time. the state department document shows--i mean the embassy document shows that one of the covering material sent to the state department was the application for renewal of passport executed by oswald july , . mr. dulles. and this was sent with their dispatch of july , , which we are now discussing. mr. coleman. yes, sir. representative ford. did you have that document at the time you wrote the statement, "we concur," and so forth? mr. coleman. which is commission exhibit no. . miss waterman. what is the date? mr. coleman. it is your x- . miss waterman. yes; i think we had that. because we referred to it. representative ford. well, does that statement, the way it is set forth there, raise any questions about whether there was any information or evidence about his expatriation? miss waterman. his questionnaire discloses no information. representative ford. but what about the statement on the first page? will you read it, for the record--the printed part? miss waterman. yes; "i have been naturalized as a citizen of a foreign state." well, of course, that would be prepared by the embassy. i think they just crossed out the wrong one. representative ford. but all we can go by is what we see. mr. coleman. would you examine the original in the state department file, and see what was crossed out there? miss waterman. yes--"i have not." i think that was an embassy error. representative ford. that is a fairly important error, though. miss waterman. yes; it is. representative ford. will you read the full text of what is shown there as it is shown on the original? miss waterman. "i have been naturalized as a citizen of a foreign state; taken an oath or made an affirmation or other formal declaration of allegiance to a foreign state; entered or served in the armed forces of a foreign state; accepted, served in or performed the duties of any office, post or employment under the government of a foreign state, or political subdivision thereof; voted in a political election in a foreign state or participated in an election or plebiscite to determine the sovereignty over foreign territory; made a formal renunciation of nationality, either in the united states or before a diplomatic or consular officer of the united states in a foreign state; been convicted by court martial of deserting the military, air or naval service of the united states in time of war; or of committing any act of treason against or of attempting by force to overthrow or of bearing arms against the united states; or departed from or remained outside the jurisdiction of the united states for the purpose of evading or avoiding training and service in the military, air, or naval forces of the united states. if any of the above mentioned acts or conditions are applicable in the applicant's case, or to the case of any other person included in this application, a supplementary statement under oath should be attached and made a part hereof." representative ford. that is signed by lee harvey oswald. miss waterman. that is signed by lee harvey oswald. and his statement here indicates and shows the performance of no such act as is described on the first page of the application. representative ford. any one of those conditions, however, in that statement would indicate that he had renounced his citizenship? miss waterman. it could. but, in other words, he now says---- representative ford. he says some place in there he is without nationality. did you have that at the time---- miss waterman. "i am described as being without citizenship." that is right. in other words, it is questionable whether the embassy should have crossed out "have not." in other words, he might have said i have done this, but his explanation---- representative ford. that is what the document shows. miss waterman. but his explanation clearly shows that he had not. mr. dulles. do you know whether that was noted at the time, or deemed to be a clerical error, or how did you interpret that crossing out of that particular line there? miss waterman. well, in any event--i actually cannot recall, mr. dulles. but the questionnaire, which was also under oath, at the embassy, would be the material part here. and there is no information in here to show that he had been naturalized. he said he was not known as a soviet citizen, he did not have a soviet passport. and as for the other items of possible expatriation, i don't see how they could have applied to him, in any event. representative ford. mr. coleman, i suggest that, to make the record complete as to what the evidence was in the file, that we have reprinted in the record at this point commission exhibit no. , because it was a followup statement by oswald on the status as he saw it of his citizenship at that time. mr. coleman. you want the reporter to print physically in the record commission exhibits nos. and , the two oswald letters? mr. dulles. just one question. i note here this is typed out. the line i saw had been marked out. i think it is a fair inference that this was typed out, since the typing was probably done in the american embassy. he had no typewriter. there is a fair inference that might have been a mistake. representative ford. all we can go by is what the record shows. mr. dulles. i think we ought to clarify that through the record in moscow, because the record is not good at this point. mr. ehrlich. there is another copy, as you know, that came in from the embassy that we sent to you that showed in fact--it was not a carbon, it was a separate one, in which the "have" was---- mr. coleman. that is commission exhibit no. . mr. ehrlich. that was in the embassy. it was not in the department. mr. dulles. there the "x's" were above everything, but probably were intended to mark out the "have." representative ford. is commission exhibit no. the original? representative ford. this is a photostat of the original? miss waterman. the original is in the department's file. mr. coleman. congressman ford, the original document is right physically in front of you. representative ford. that one is crossing out his "have not." it is very clear. mr. dulles. and on this one, which is the copy in the embassy files, the crossed out is above all three. it apparently was intended to be crossed out, the "have." (at this point, representative ford withdrew from the hearing room.) mr. coleman. we just thought the record should--you recall we asked mr. snyder a question about this, and he said he didn't know whether it was a typographical error, or just what the reason for it was. miss waterman, would you be kind enough to look at the document in your file which is x- , and could you look at the original, in the original state department file? now, we have marked it as commission exhibit no. . now, the second page of the document that we have has inserted a sheet of paper called a passport office lookout file. is that stamped physically on the back of the first page? miss waterman. yes. mr. coleman. that indicates that the document was received on july , is that correct? there is a stamp on there? miss waterman. yes; july . mr. coleman. there is another stamp on there, august , . miss waterman. yes; i see that. mr. coleman. you also have the lookout file on the passport office, is checked under "no lookout (refusal) file record." do you see that? miss waterman. yes; i see it. mr. coleman. does this mean that when someone ordered a search of the lookout record file in july or august, , that there was no lookout file record on lee harvey oswald? miss waterman. apparently so. that was probably done automatically. the records people probably did that. mr. coleman. this was prior to the time when you had made your decision there had been no expatriation, is that correct? miss waterman. i will have to look at this. mr. coleman. your recommendation wasn't made until august , . miss waterman. that is what we were replying to. that is one of the communications that we were acknowledging, yes, that is right. mr. coleman. well, should there have been a lookout card when the search was made in july , on lee harvey oswald? miss waterman. well, i would say that if one were made, it would have been in there. now, i don't know that i always would have examined the reverse of every dispatch. if i had examined the reverse of that despatch, i probably would have noted it. mr. coleman. well, what i am saying, as a result of the refusal sheet that you prepared in , when the lookout section made the search on august , , should there not have been a lookout file at that time on lee harvey oswald? miss waterman. are you talking about a lookout card? mr. coleman. a lookout card, yes. miss waterman. a lookout card would only have referred to this file. mr. coleman. yes. miss waterman. which we already had, and which we already determined had no evidence of expatriation. mr. coleman. i am suggesting that you did not make that determination until august , . miss waterman. well, mr. coleman, the card itself would have been totally immaterial to the decision we made here, inasmuch as we had the entire file, and also our refusal--the refusal sheet would be in here. as i said, that was not for expatriation. it was just to flag an adverse--possible adverse interest in the case. mr. dulles. but there has been testimony given here before, miss waterman, that when the question came up later of the issuance of a passport, since there was no lookout card, this file was not consulted. miss waterman. well, that could be. that was, i believe--i believe that was after i had anything to do with the file. mr. dulles. yes; i know. you cannot testify as to that. mr. coleman. now, miss waterman, would you be kind enough to turn over to the next document which you have before you, after the august , , memorandum? miss waterman. yes. mr. coleman. and that is in the file--your file as x- . it has been given commission exhibit no. . miss waterman. yes. mr. coleman. and will you note that there is some typewritten material that appears on the first page which says, "attached report is a summation of subject's background and case since he renounced u.s. citizenship and sought soviet citizenship in the fall of . as his citizenship status does not appear to be resolved, copies of the report are furnished to both ppt and vo." and the attachment is an fbi report. miss waterman. yes. mr. coleman. written on the side in your handwriting, i assume, is the word "incorrect." miss waterman. that is correct. mr. coleman. do you recall when you wrote that on that paper? miss waterman. well, probably when i saw it. i would not recall when i wrote it, but it would be--the statement--my inference there that the statement in this memorandum is what you might call a misnomer would have been correct at any date. mr. dulles. who wrote this memorandum which you indicated was incorrect? miss waterman. i have a line there "renounced u.s. citizenship." in other words, somebody who had nothing to do with the adjudication of the case or citizenship had made a statement in there that this person had renounced, and that is a rather poor thing to have in the file which is going around to various places in the department or possibly elsewhere. and i did write that on, with reference only to his renunciation. mr. dulles. with reference to that one statement? miss waterman. that is right. mr. coleman. and then on december , , you drafted a memorandum which purports to be from miss knight to robert f. hale, in which you indicated that any inference in the memorandum of july , , which is the document i have just asked you about---- miss waterman. yes. mr. coleman. that oswald was not a citizen of the united states is incorrect. miss waterman. that is right. mr. coleman. and you prepared---- miss waterman. in other words, this memorandum which i did make the notation on was sent to other parts of the department, and we wanted to correct that impression, that there was any evidence of expatriation by oswald, by renunciation of u.s. citizenship, or any other way. mr. coleman. that has been marked as commission exhibit no. , which is the memorandum of december , , in which you made the statement that any inference that mr. oswald had--was not a citizen of the united states was incorrect. mr. waterman. well, yes; well, that is self-explanatory. mr. coleman. then on the same day you drafted an operations memorandum to be sent to the embassy in moscow in which you said that the passport office approves the manner of the embassy's replies to mr. oswald with respect to passport facilities for him in the future. is that correct? that you drafted that memorandum? miss waterman. yes; i drafted that. mr. coleman. that has been given commission exhibit no. . that is december , . it is the last document. now, after december , , did you have anything else to do as far as the oswald matter was concerned? miss waterman. i don't think so, except perhaps sending a copy of some document or letter to our files--because i had only about a month's work in the department. i left work on february , , and that was the last day i had with any kind of performance of duties. i might have marked some paper or something of that sort. but i don't recall any action. if the file shows it, i took it. but, otherwise, i don't remember. mr. coleman. when you took the various actions we have discussed this morning with respect to mr. oswald, were you acting under instructions of anyone that this was the decision you would have to make because someone else in the department wanted you to resolve the question this way? miss waterman. what do you mean? do you mean outside of the passport office? mr. coleman. yes. miss waterman. outside the passport office? mr. coleman. yes; i am just asking you for the record. miss waterman. i know. but you mentioned--such as who? mr. coleman. did anyone call you up and say, "miss waterman, this is the way you have to resolve this case"? miss waterman. oh, no. oh, no. mr. coleman. and you made the decisions you made based upon the record and your judgment as to what you thought the law was and what the facts were? miss waterman. certainly. mr. dulles. did you consult anyone in connection with reaching that decision in the oswald case? miss waterman. well, mr. dulles, in preparing this correspondence, as i have told you, the correspondence was prepared for the signature of my superiors, and if they didn't agree with what i wrote, that was all right with me. but that was my impression, and i believed there had been discussion among persons in our immediate office. and while---- mr. dulles. your decision, then, is not final. it is subject to review by your superiors in matters of this kind? miss waterman. that is right. but in no event--i don't know of any--as i say, my connection with the case closed, and i never heard in the press or any other place that indicated that oswald expatriated himself and that he wasn't entitled to a passport. mr. coleman. your decision wasn't in any way influenced by the fact that miss james told you that this was a decision that would have to be made or anything like that? miss waterman. certainly not. they have absolutely nothing to do with citizenship--nothing. mr. coleman. i have no further questions, mr. chairman. mr. dulles. off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. coleman. mr. chairman, before we close the testimony of miss waterman, i would like to move for the admission of commission exhibits no. through commission exhibit no. , which were the documents that we marked. mr. dulles. they shall be admitted. (the documents heretofore marked for identification as commission exhibits nos. - , were received in evidence.) mr. coleman. i would like to thank miss waterman for coming in. mr. dulles. we thank you very much, miss waterman. (whereupon, at : p.m., the president's commission recessed.) afternoon session testimony of the hon. dean rusk, secretary of state the president's commission reconvened at : p.m. the chairman. mr. secretary dean rusk, we wanted to ask you a few questions about this matter in any particular detail you wanted to answer. mr. rankin would you inform the secretary the areas we intend to cover before we ask the questions. mr. rankin. mr. chief justice, i think the particular area that we would be interested in with the secretary is just as to whether, or his knowledge of whether there was any foreign political interest in the assassination of president kennedy? we have been getting the information in regard to other matters concerning the state department from other of his associates and colleagues and employees of the department, and we are going to complete that and it has been helpful to us and i think we can rather limit the inquiry to that area. the chairman. yes; very well. mr. secretary, would you rise and be sworn, please. do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? secretary rusk. i do. the chairman. will you be seated, please, and mr. rankin will ask you the questions, mr. secretary. secretary rusk. mr. chief justice, may i ask one question? the chairman. yes, indeed. secretary rusk. i would like to be just as helpful as possible to the commission. i am not quite clear of testimony in terms of future publication. there may be certain points that arise where it might be helpful to the commission for me to comment on certain points but there--it would be a very grave difficulty about publication, so i wonder what the commission's view on that is. the chairman. well, mr. secretary, our purpose is to have available for the public all of the evidence that is given here. if there is any phase of it that you think might jeopardize the security of the nation, have no hesitation in asking us to go off the record for a moment, and you can tell us what you wish. secretary rusk. thank you, sir, i am at your disposal. mr. dulles. mr. chief justice, could i make a suggestion in that connection? the chairman. yes. mr. dulles. would it be feasible to have a discussion here of the points that are vital from the point of view of our record, and so forth, and maybe a little informal conversation afterward to cover the other points. the chairman. we will have a recess for a few moments then. mr. dulles. i thought between the two wouldn't that be easier than put the two together. (discussion off the record.) the chairman. back on the record. mr. rankin. mr. secretary, will you give us your name and address, please? secretary rusk. dean rusk, quebec street, washington, d.c. mr. rankin. and you are the secretary of state for the united states? secretary rusk. that is correct. mr. rankin. you have occupied that position for some time? secretary rusk. since january , . mr. rankin. in that position you have become familiar with our foreign relations and the attitude and interest in some degree of other countries that we deal with? secretary rusk. yes; within the limitations of the possibilities, it is at least my task to be as familiar as possible with those things. mr. rankin. in your opinion, was there any substantial interest or interests of the soviet union which would have been advanced by the assassination of president kennedy? secretary rusk. i would first have to say on a question of that sort that it is important to follow the evidence. it is very difficult to look into the minds of someone else, and know what is in someone else's mind. i have seen no evidence that would indicate to me that the soviet union considered that it had an interest in the removal of president kennedy or that it was in any way involved in the removal of president kennedy. if i may elaborate just a moment. mr. rankin. if you will, please. secretary rusk. as the commission may remember, i was with several colleagues in a plane on the way to japan at the time the assassination occurred. when we got the news we immediately turned back. after my mind was able to grasp the fact that this event had in fact occurred, which was the first necessity, and not an easy one, i then, on the plane, began to go over the dozens and dozens of implications and ramifications of this event as it affects our foreign relations all over the world. i landed briefly in hawaii on the way back to washington, and gave some instructions to the department about a number of these matters, and learned what the department was already doing. but one of the great questions in my mind at that time was just that question, could some foreign government somehow be involved in such an episode. i realized that were this so this would raise the gravest issues of war and peace, but that nevertheless it was important to try to get at the truth--to the answer to that question--wherever that truth might lead; and so when i got back to washington i put myself immediately in touch with the processes of inquiry on that point, and as secretary of state had the deepest possible interest in what the truthful answer to those questions would be, because it would be hard to think of anything more pregnant for our foreign relations than the correct answer to that question. i have not seen or heard of any scrap of evidence indicating that the soviet union had any desire to eliminate president kennedy nor in any way participated in any such event. now, standing back and trying to look at that question objectively despite the ideological differences between our two great systems, i can't see how it could be to the interest of the soviet union to make any such effort. since i have become secretary of state i have seen no evidence of any policy of assassination of leaders of the free world on the part of the soviets, and our intelligence community has not been able to furnish any evidence pointing in that direction. i am sure that i would have known about such bits of evidence had they existed but i also made inquiry myself to see whether there was such evidence, and received a negative reply. i do think that the soviet union, again objectively considered, has an interest in the correctness of state relations. this would be particularly true among the great powers, with which the major interests of the soviet union are directly engaged. mr. rankin. could you expand on that a little bit so that others than those who deal in that area might understand fully what you mean? secretary rusk. yes; i think that although there are grave differences between the communist world and the free world, between the soviet union and other major powers, that even from their point of view there needs to be some shape and form to international relations, that it is not in their interest to have this world structure dissolve into complete anarchy, that great states and particularly nuclear powers have to be in a position to deal with each other, to transact business with each other, to try to meet problems with each other, and that requires the maintenance of correct relations and access to the leadership on all sides. i think also that although there had been grave differences between chairman khrushchev and president kennedy, i think there were evidences of a certain mutual respect that had developed over some of the experiences, both good and bad, through which these two men had lived. i think both of them were aware of the fact that any chairman of the soviet union and any president of the united states necessarily bear somewhat special responsibility for the general peace of the world. indeed without exaggeration, one could almost say the existence of the northern hemisphere in this nuclear age. so that it would be an act of rashness and madness for soviet leaders to undertake such an action as an active policy. because everything would have been put in jeopardy or at stake in connection with such an act. it has not been our impression that madness has characterized the actions of the soviet leadership in recent years. i think also that it is relevant that people behind the iron curtain, including people in the soviet union and including officials in the soviet union, seemed to be deeply affected by the death of president kennedy. their reactions were prompt, and i think genuine, of regret and sorrow. mr. khrushchev was the first to come to the embassy to sign the book of condolences. there were tears in the streets of moscow. moscow radio spent a great deal of attention to these matters. now they did come to premature conclusions, in my judgment, about what this event was and what it meant in terms of who might have been responsible for it--and ideological effect has crept into that. but i had the impression that the regret was genuine and that the ordinary soviet citizen joined with ordinary people in other parts of the world in feeling the loss of the president in a very genuine sense. mr. rankin. there has been some suggestion that possibly the leadership of the soviet union would not have been politically interested in the death of the president but possibly a distant wing of the party might have been so involved. can you give us any light on that, mr. secretary. the chairman. by suggestion you mean rumor? mr. rankin. in the newspapers, and things of that kind, rumor. secretary rusk. i haven't been able to put a rational structure behind that possibility. if there are dissident elements their primary problem is within the soviet union. if these dissident elements were aiming to change the present government of the soviet union or its leadership or to return to an early range of policy by the elimination of present leadership or seizure of control, i don't quite see how the elimination of the president of the united states could contribute to that purpose. i would also suppose that in their kind of system such elements would be under pretty close supervision and surveillance and they would have limited opportunities for the kind of action that would be organized in a way in this direction, although that is a matter of some speculation. but, i would doubt very much that such dissident elements would have a motive or very much of an opportunity. again, i have seen no evidence pointing in that direction. mr. rankin. how could you tell us in regard to cuba in the same general way, your opinion and knowledge of any information or credible evidence? secretary rusk. well, i would again repeat that the overriding consideration is to make every possible effort to find evidence and follow the evidence to wherever it leads. i think it is, at least for me, more difficult to try to enter into the minds of the present leadership in cuba than, perhaps, even of the present leadership of the soviet union. we have had very few contacts, as the commission knows, with the present government of cuba. but again, i have seen no evidence that seems to point in that direction. there were some exchanges, with which the commission is familiar, that seemed to be--seemed to come to another conclusion. but i would think that objective considerations would mean that it would be even greater madness for castro or his government to be involved in any such enterprise than almost for anyone else, because literally the issue of war and peace would mean the issue of the existence of his regime and perhaps of his country might have been involved in that question. we were under the impression that there was very considerable concern in cuba as to whether they would be held responsible and what the effect of that might be on their own position and their own safety. but i have seen no evidence that points to involvement by them, and i don't see objective facts which would seem to make it in their interests to remove mr. kennedy. you see, this embarks upon, in any event it would embark upon, an unpredictable trail for them to go down this path, but i would think again the commission would wish to examine the evidence as it has been doing with meticulous care and follow the evidence in these matters. mr. rankin. after the assassination, did you have direct communications with ambassador thomas mann while he was still ambassador at mexico? secretary rusk. yes; we had a number of exchanges with ambassador mann connected with the presence in mexico of mr. oswald. i say those messages, and over a period of some days had daily consultations about them with our deputy under secretary for political affairs, mr. u. alexis johnson. mr. johnson is my principal representative in our dealings with the various intelligence and security agencies of the government and with the pentagon, and he has an office very near mine on the seventh floor of the department of state. these exchanges raised questions of the most far-reaching character involving the possibility of the implications of another government, and so i had a very deep personal interest in that at the time. our principal concern was to be sure that the fbi and the cia who were the principal agencies investigating this matter would have every possible facility at their disposal, and would--and that our ambassador would be given the fullest support from us in facilitating the investigation at the mexican end. so i was for a period, until this particular trail ran its course, very much involved in those exchanges. mr. rankin. do you have any commentary that you want to make about those exchanges other than what you have given us? secretary rusk. i think not, sir. i think that the materials, the information developed in those exchanges are before the commission, and i believe the commission has had a chance to inquire into them both as i understand both here and in mexico with the appropriate agencies and i would think that the commission's conclusions on that would be more valuable than mine because i have not put together all the pieces to draw finished conclusions from them. mr. rankin. one of the commissioners saw a newspaper story shortly after the assassination saying "the voice of america beaming its message into russia immediately blamed the reactionary rightwing movements after kennedy's death." do you know anything about that matter or what the source of it might have been? secretary rusk. no; i have not anticipated that question so that i could have a chance to investigate it, but i will, if i may, mr. chief justice, file a report with the commission on that point. i can say now that there was never any policy guidance from the department of state or from the leadership of the voice of america suggesting that any broadcasters take that line. it is possible, and this is purely speculative at the moment, that the voice of america in repeating a great many news accounts, as it frequently does in its overseas broadcasts, may have repeated some news accounts from this country, among which might have been a story to that effect from one source or another, but i would like if i may, sir, an opportunity to investigate that point and make a report to the commission. the chairman. you may do that, mr. secretary. representative ford. may i ask a question? have we received in the commission all of the voice of america broadcasts that were made over a period of to days involved in this incident? mr. rankin. i don't know of any. representative ford. i think the commission ought to have them for our own analysis as well as the analysis of the secretary of state. mr. rankin. is that under your jurisdiction? secretary rusk. yes; indeed i could provide that. mr. rankin. if you will, please. secretary rusk. the commission might also be interested in either digests or the fuller materials on world reactions to the president's assassination. i have here, for example, a daily summary of the th of november , on foreign radio and press reaction which gives some interesting treatment about this behind the iron curtain. i would be happy to furnish the commission with any material of that sort which you might wish. mr. rankin. we would appreciate having that. the chairman. very well, thank you, mr. secretary. representative ford. would that include the voice of moscow or whatever they call it over there? secretary rusk. yes, sir. representative ford. from the outset of the events that took place? secretary rusk. yes, sir; you might just wish to look at the first two or three paragraphs here to get a sample of the kind of summary that that involves. mr. dulles. was that prepared in the department or by the foreign broadcast information service? secretary rusk. this particular one is from the foreign broadcast information service. we also have another one. we also have another one from within the department which is also available in terms. representative ford. i think it would be useful to have both for a period of about a week or so. i realize this is a summary covering several days. i think i saw that at the time. mr. rankin. there was another statement in the paper apparently purporting to be official that one of the commissioners asked me to ask about and that was the washington post, sunday, november , , which was quoted by the commissioner as, "today in washington state department officials said they have no evidence indicating involvement of any foreign power in the assassination." do you know anything about that or can you give us any information? secretary rusk. that was the view which we took at the time in consultation with the investigative agencies. we did not then have evidence of that sort nor do we now, and the implications of suggesting evidence in the absence of evidence would have been enormous. representative ford. i don't understand that. secretary rusk. well, for us to leave the impression that we had evidence that we could not describe or discuss, when in fact we didn't have the evidence on a matter of such overriding importance could have created a very dangerous situation in terms of---- representative ford. wouldn't it have been just as effective to say no comment? secretary rusk. well, unfortunately, under the practices of the press, no comment would have been taken to confirm that there was evidence. i mean, that would have been the interpretation that many would have put upon no comment. but, mr. ford, i think the key thing is that at the time that statement was made we did not have such evidence. i mean, this was a factual statement at that time. representative ford. but, at that time, this was days after the assassination, you really didn't have much time to evaluate all of the evidence. secretary rusk. well, that is correct. but if the evidence or the known facts had changed certainly that type of statement would have changed. in other words, such statements are based upon the situation as known at the time the statements are made. representative ford. this statement then appeared in the sunday morning, november issue or edition of the washington post. that was a statement issued certainly on the d of november because it had to be in order to get in the sunday edition of the post. so, that is hours after the assassination. secretary rusk. that is correct, sir, and this statement was made on the basis of such information as was available to us in the first hours. mr. rankin. i was also asked to inquire whether that was an official statement if under your responsibility or if you could tell me who would be responsible for it? secretary rusk. well, i would have to check the actual source of the statement. but i would have no present doubt that it was an officer of the department who was authorized to make that and for which i would be fully responsible. mr. rankin. that is all i have. mr. dulles. could i ask a question in connection with that? the chairman. mr. dulles. mr. dulles. there was some evidence presented here quite recently when the district attorney of dallas was here with regard to a message from washington, from the white house to the attorney general of texas, who was also here the other day before the commission, on this point: a rumor had reached washington that in preparing the indictment there, they were going to put in some reference to an international conspiracy. as a matter of fact, when that was run down it was not a correct rumor. but when that reached washington, the reaction was rather strong and i think entirely understandable, and word went back to dallas from high quarters that that should not, hoped that that would not be included in the legal proceedings and papers that were filed in connection with the assassination of the president and charging---- mr. rankin. unless there was evidence to support it. mr. dulles. unless there was evidence to support it. and the district attorney, who was here, testified that he had never considered adding that into it, putting that in the proceedings because if you put it in you had to prove it, and it is not necessary at all. all you need to do is allege a murder with intent, and so forth, and so on. so that that was all pretty well cleared up. mr. dulles. did that ever reach your attention, did you know anything about that? secretary rusk. i don't personally recall that particular message. i do recall---- mr. dulles. that took place, i think before you got back, because that took place on the evening of the d. secretary rusk. i didn't arrive until---- mr. dulles. you didn't get back until the d? secretary rusk. until the early morning of the d. mr. dulles. yes. secretary rusk. i do recall being concerned if several different authorities and agencies undertook investigations that would cut across each other's bow or make it difficult to elicit the cooperation of people outside the united states whose cooperation we might need in matters of that sort, i felt myself at that time there ought to be a complete and absolutely thorough investigation by the most responsible authorities and i was glad to see that brought into some order at the time but i don't remember the particular message you are talking about. representative ford. could you check to see if somebody in the department of state made such a call or made such a contact? secretary rusk. yes; i will be be glad to. representative ford. and if so so report it for the proceedings? secretary rusk. yes, indeed; i will be glad to. mr. chayes. i may be able to supply some information to the commission on this point because during the night of the d when we were examining the data in my office, the files, i did receive a call from mr. katzenbach who said that they had heard at the justice department, that there was a possibility that this kind of an element would get into the indictment, and said that--i can't remember the exact words that he used--but he conveyed to me that he regarded this as not very good, in the absence of evidence to support it, and said that he was seeking to have mr. saunders, who is the u.s. attorney in dallas, admitted to the councils of the state officials there so that they could discuss these matters as time went on. and that he would try to, i don't know exactly again what he said, but that he would try to see that in the absence of evidence no such allegation was made in the indictment. i didn't in any sense authorize, and i certainly couldn't direct him to do anything of this kind but my recollection of my reaction is that i acquiesced fully in what he was proposing to do, and raised no objection to it. i think at sometime during that evening i reported this conversation to mr. ball. i am less clear about this part of the recollection, but i think i did report the conversation to mr. ball, much in the same way as i am reporting it to you, and he saw no objection either. i think that is the entire state department side of that particular transaction. representative ford. would you check, however, mr. secretary, to see if there is anything further in this regard? secretary rusk. yes; i will. representative ford. do i understand that you or somebody for you is to summarize the usia voice of america broadcast that went out for the first or days subsequent to the assassination and that would be submitted for the record? secretary rusk. yes, indeed. and we can, of course, have available to the commission such tapes or transcripts as we have of all those broadcasts in full, but i think we can start with the summary and then you can have the other materials if you wish to follow up particular points. representative ford. would they be voluminous, the originals? secretary rusk. i would think they would be fairly voluminous, but not unmanageably so. representative ford. i would say for at least the first hours it might be well to have the full text of the usia voice of america material that was sent out. secretary rusk. right. representative ford. do i also understand for the record that we are to have this or others like it showing what the press reaction was throughout the world? secretary rusk. yes, sir. now, the foreign broadcast information service material would be much more voluminous because there we are receiving broadcasts in the clear from most broadcasting countries. but we will be in touch with your staff to show them everything that we have, and they can have any part of it they wish or we will be glad to give any help in terms of digesting or summarizing. mr. rankin. we have been furnished some information, considerable information, about the attitude of the foreign press as it was recited and has come to the attention of the people from time to time, but i don't believe we have right close, the voice of america we don't have right close to the date of the assassination. the chairman. i read a sizable file on that that came from the state department and very early in the life of the commission that seemed to encompass all of the statements that were made around the world at that time. secretary rusk. yes. representative ford. this document which you handed me, mr. secretary, is for tuesday, november . are these done on a daily basis? secretary rusk. i think that one was a summary of the first or days, but i would---- mr. dulles. summaries are done from time to time and there are daily reports from foreign broadcasting information service covering the soviet union and the satellites and another volume covering china and southeast asia, and so forth and so on. mr. rankin. mr. secretary, could you give us a brief description of that, we have been calling it this and these. secretary rusk. yes; this is a daily report or rather a supplement to the daily report put out by the foreign broadcast information service in what is called its world reaction series. this apparently is a supplement to the foreign radio and press reaction to the death of president kennedy, and the accession of president johnson, prepared on november . this is a daily report, the subject matter of which varies from day to day, but i will be glad to draw together not only such digests as we have, but also to see what we have retained in terms of the actual broadcasts from other countries so that although it may be voluminous it might have some material of interest to the commission or its staff. representative ford. i think it would be particularly pertinent as far as the soviet union or any of the bloc countries or cuba, anything in this area that could be pulled together and included in the record, which i think would be very helpful. secretary rusk. all right, sir. representative ford. i have the recollection that some people have alleged that castro either prior to or subsequent to the assassination, made some very inflamatory speech involving president kennedy. do you have any recollection of that? secretary rusk. i don't have a recollection of a speech specially related to time. he has made more than his share of inflamatory speeches about this country and its leaders. but i will be glad to furnish the commission a schedule of his speeches, and the character of these speeches and the texts if we have them during this period. representative ford. there was one that i vaguely recall, either prior to or subsequent to the assassination that some people construed to be directed specifically at president kennedy, and i think if there was such a speech that the commission ought to have it and it ought to be analyzed by the staff and by the commission. secretary rusk. we will be very glad to look into that and furnish you with speeches made during this period or during a substantial part of the period on both sides of the november date. i gather the commission has mr. danielle's interview with mr. castro on the subject. you have the published report of that. mr. dulles. was that the long interview with castro? secretary rusk. yes; that was as close to any reflection of a thing that he might have said personally about this that went beyond the kind of broadcast speeches you referred to that i have seen, but---- mr. dulles. do you have that available? secretary rusk. we certainly can get it. mr. dulles. it was in the press i guess at the time. maybe you have a fuller copy than we have. secretary rusk. yes; it was a rather extensive interview. mr. chayes. i think the staff has it already. secretary rusk. i see. mr. rankin. i think commissioner ford is referring to that speech of mr. castro which is sometimes called the slip-of-the-tongue speech that referred in a way that may have some implications in it. i think that might help you to identify it, mr. secretary. secretary rusk. it might be well for me, just to complete the sense of the atmosphere, to accompany that with the timing and the nature of statements and speeches that were being made on our side as a part of this continuing rather acrimonious discourse with cuban leadership. but i will provide full information on this. mr. rankin. we would appreciate it so it would give a complete picture. secretary rusk. yes. representative ford. do i understand now, mr. rankin, that what the secretary provides will be put in the record as exhibits? mr. rankin. mr. chairman, i would like to offer to do that if that is satisfactory, as a part of this record. the chairman. yes, sir; it might be admitted. representative ford. there is one question that i think ought to be cleared up, you mentioned mr. mann who was our ambassador at mexico at that time. the way the record stands now it could be construed by somebody who wanted to so construe it that the country in which he served us was involved in what he was reporting. i think it ought to be made clear that is not the case. secretary rusk. that is absolutely correct, sir. we never had the slightest view that mexico was involved in this. the problem, the question arose because mr. oswald had been in mexico, and was known to have been in touch with some cubans at the cuban embassy in mexico. but the mexican authorities gave us complete and the most helpful cooperation in full investigation of this matter. the chairman. are there any further questions? mr. dulles. mr. dulles. had you finished? mr. rankin. yes; i have. (discussion off the record.) the chairman. are we ready to go back on the record? all right, the commission will be in order. mr. rankin. mr. chief justice, i should like to offer in evidence at this point commission exhibit no. being the communication from yourself as chairman of the commission to the secretary of state, dated march , , and the note verbale in regard to the inquiries of the soviet union. and commission exhibit no. being the responses of the soviet union, including all of the medical as well as all other responses together with the transmittal letters from the soviet union and from the state department. the chairman. they may be admitted under those numbers. (commission exhibits nos. and were marked for identification and received in evidence.) mr. rankin. i would like to assign, mr. chief justice, commission exhibit no. , if i may, to those prior communications from the files of the soviet embassy in washington that were furnished to us by the state department. the chairman. they may be admitted under that number. (commission exhibit no. was marked for identification and received in evidence.) mr. rankin. commission exhibit no. will be the copies of the records from the soviet embassy in washington that were supplied to the commission earlier by the state department as a part of the records that were furnished to us by the state department. the chairman. those were the ones that were voluntarily offered by the russians before any request was made of them? mr. rankin. yes, mr. chairman. the chairman. they may be admitted under that number. mr. rankin. mr. secretary, will you tell us whether you know of any credible evidence to show or establish or tending to show any conspiracy either domestic or foreign involved in the assassination of president kennedy? secretary rusk. no; i have no evidence that would point in that direction or to lead me to a conclusion that such a conspiracy existed. mr. rankin. that is all i have. the chairman. are there any further questions, gentlemen? if not, thank you very much, mr. secretary. secretary rusk. thank you very much, mr. chief justice and gentlemen. testimony of frances g. knight the chairman. the commission will be in order. mr. coleman, will you state to miss knight, please, the reason we asked her to come here today? mr. coleman. miss frances g. knight is the head of the passport office of the state department. miss knight. yes, sir. mr. coleman. we want to ask her concerning the standard operating notice with respect to the lookout card system which was in effect as of november--as of february , , and we also wanted to ask her concerning the decision of the passport office that mr. oswald had not expatriated himself and, therefore, he should be reissued his passport. miss knight. yes, sir. the chairman. would you raise your right hand and be sworn, miss knight? do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before the commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? miss knight. i do. the chairman. be seated. mr. coleman will ask you the questions. mr. coleman. miss knight, will you state your name for the record? miss knight. frances g. knight. mr. coleman. what is your present address? miss knight. home address? mr. coleman. yes. miss knight. wyoming avenue nw. mr. coleman. what is your present position? miss knight. i am director of the passport office in the department of state. mr. coleman. how long have you occupied that position? miss knight. since may , . mr. coleman. do you have any independent recollection of having ever looked at any files dealing with lee harvey oswald prior to the time of the assassination? miss knight. no, sir. mr. coleman. i would like to mark as commission exhibit no. a memorandum from frances g. knight to mr. william o. boswell, which bears the date of december , , and is found among the state department file no. xi, document no. and ask you whether you have seen the original of that document? (commission exhibit no. was received in evidence.) miss knight. sir, you want to know whether i personally saw this before it went out? mr. coleman. yes. miss knight. this is a little difficult to answer. there are a great many communications that go out over my name particularly a memo of this sort, which would be prepared in the passport office, and i would--i might sign it or if i were not in the office at the time my deputy might sign it for me. but these communications usually go out over my name. mr. coleman. well, miss knight, does that document---- miss knight. this one looks as though it was initialed by me because it has the type of a "k" that i make. mr. coleman. that document indicates that it was prepared by miss b. waterman, is that correct? miss knight. there is no indication here, sir. it was prepared in the foreign division of the passport office, but there is no indication on this communication as to the individual who prepared it. mr. coleman. would you be kind enough to read what is on the memorandum into the record, please? miss knight. yes, sir; the memorandum is addressed to "sy," mr. william o. boswell from ppt--frances g. knight, subject "lee harvey oswald." "we refer to the office memorandum of july , , from sy which stated that the subject 'renounced united states citizenship'. mr. oswald attempted to renounce united states citizenship but did not, in fact, renounce united states citizenship. our determination on the basis of the information and evidence presently of record is that mr. oswald did not expatriate himself, and remains a citizen of the united states." the blue file copy would indicate who prepared this memorandum in the passport office and who signed it. mr. coleman. do you have the file copy? miss knight. i don't think we have it with us, do we? [note: the file copy was shown to miss knight.] the memorandum was prepared by mr. h. f. kupiec, who is in the foreign operations division of the passport office. it was signed for me by mr. hickey, who is the deputy. mr. coleman. you have no independent recollection of ever having seen that document prior to the assassination? miss knight. no, sir. mr. coleman. did you ever participate or make any decision as to whether lee harvey oswald lost his citizenship? miss knight. no. mr. coleman. in ? miss knight. no. mr. coleman. did you ever make any personal decision or participate in any decision as to whether he should be reissued a passport in july ? miss knight. no. mr. coleman. i, therefore, take it you personally had nothing or you can't recall anything that you had to do with lee harvey oswald up to the time of the assassination? miss knight. no; i had nothing to do with the papers that were involved at that time. mr. coleman. but the decision that he had not renounced his citizenship was made in your department? miss knight. it was made in the passport office by the citizenship lawyers. the two persons who were primarily involved were members of the staff, of long-standing service and with a great deal of experience in citizenship law and in expatriation. mr. coleman. could you state the names, their names for the record? miss knight. yes; miss bernice waterman, and mr. john t. white. both of those employees have now retired from the passport office. mr. coleman. you said both were lawyers? miss knight. miss waterman was not a lawyer but she worked directly under mr. john t. white who was a lawyer in charge of the foreign operations division. mr. coleman. well, since the assassination of president kennedy, have you had occasion to review the passport file. miss knight. well, the first time that i actually had an opportunity to look through the passport file was last saturday. mr. coleman. did you get a chance to read each document in the file? miss knight. i read through the file; yes. mr. coleman. did you have occasion to form any judgment whether based upon the information that was in the file you would have reached the same decision as waterman and white did with respect to oswald? miss knight. yes; i certainly did. from that standpoint, i did go through the papers carefully. i am convinced that insofar as any expatriative act is concerned that we made the only decision that we could. the same decision was reached by the consul who interviewed mr. oswald in moscow, at the embassy, and i think, with all the facts on record, we had to come to the conclusion that oswald did not perform any expatriative act. (at this point, the chief justice left the hearing room.) miss knight (continuing). may i ask one question, please? mr. coleman. yes. miss knight. i have a statement here, some notes that i prepared this morning which are based on the information i read in the file. these are some comments i would make and i think they may be helpful to you. could i refer to them or possibly read them to you? would that be all right? mr. coleman. that would be fine. miss knight. after reading the file---- mr. coleman. and by "file" you mean the passport file? miss knight. the passport file of lee harvey oswald, i would say the handling of the case would break down into three separate actions: one, the adjudication of his citizenship; two, the documentation of his repatriation loan, and, three, the issuance of a passport to oswald on june , . as i understand it, the commission has been furnished with detailed information covering all these actions, and in addition we have supplied replies which were prepared in the passport office by our staff to the specific questions that were posed by the commission. my comments on the citizenship and expatriation phase of the oswald case are these: insofar as the oswald citizenship status is concerned, it is my firm belief that lee harvey oswald, despite his statement to the u.s. consul in moscow, that he wished to divest himself of u.s. citizenship, did not do so. at no time did he sign the required documents which were available to him for that purpose. oswald was a -year-old ex-marine, and the u.s. consul made it quite clear in his despatches to the department, that oswald was arrogant and aggressive, and angry and unstable. i had not had the opportunity to read the file until last saturday, because it was taken out of the passport office on november , . however, i do not recall---- mr. dulles. by whom? miss knight. it was asked for and sent to the administrator of the bureau of security and consular affairs, mr. abba schwartz. i want to make a correction on that date. it was on november that the file was taken out of the passport office. late at night, i believe. i do not recall that the file, the passport folder, contained any information that would tag oswald as a u.s. communist, or a communist sympathizer prior to his visit to the u.s. embassy in moscow, and there is no record that he engaged in any public denunciation of the united states. during the time oswald's citizenship status was in question, that is from the time he had advised the u.s. consul in moscow that he wished to renounce his citizenship, to the time it was determined he had not committed an expatriative act, a period of almost years, his file was flagged and according to our records a lookout card was ordered for the lookout file. on march , , the passport office advised the u.s. embassy in moscow that "an appropriate notice has been placed in the lookout card section of the passport office in the event that mr. oswald should apply for documentation at a post outside the soviet union." mr. coleman. we will note for the record that document you are referring to--i think it is the operations memorandum of may , --has been given commission exhibit no. . miss knight. in view of the volume of our work it would be impossible at this late date for a clerk in the passport office to remember whether a card was actually made or not made. apparently no card was found in the search of the lookout file, but again it is possible that such a card was misfiled. it is also possible if a card was made it was destroyed in error, but whether there was a card made or not has no bearing on the final outcome of the decision regarding the oswald citizenship. mr. dulles. may i ask a question there. would you prefer to read this entire document first? miss knight. no; it is easier---- mr. dulles. is it conceivable that the lookout card could have been removed in when his passport was extended to return to the united states? under your procedure would that have been done? miss knight. under our procedure when he was issued the passport that card would have been removed; yes. so that in there would not have been a card in the file. mr. coleman. even though the passport was issued specifically saying it was only good for return to the united states and only good for month. miss knight. that is right. the passport was limited and could not be used beyond the time it was limited for. mr. dulles. would that have caused the card to be removed? miss knight. yes. mr. dulles. issuance of that passport, even a limited passport would have resulted in the card being withdrawn? miss knight. the card would have been withdrawn at the time that his citizenship was adjudicated, and when it was found that he had not expatriated himself. the card which was put in the file related only to his citizenship status. mr. dulles. that is what--somewhat earlier, that is several months before the passport was extended? miss knight. oh, yes. mr. coleman. that would mean when he came back into the united states and he then reapplied days later for another passport it would have gone through routinely and you would not have picked up the fact that it was oswald the defector that was now going to go back out of the united states? miss knight. well, that would be possible, i think; yes. the experienced citizenship attorneys in the passport office, as well as the u.s. consul in moscow determined individually that oswald had not expatriated himself. his passport was renewed in may , and limited for return to the united states. in the adjudication of his citizenship, we can only deal with the facts on record. the fact is that oswald did not avail himself of the prescribed procedure to renounce his u.s. nationality. in applying for his passport renewal, he stated under oath that he had not committed an expatriative act. he denied an earlier statement that he had applied for soviet citizenship, and produced some evidence that he had never been declared a soviet citizen. now, as far as the repatriation loan is concerned, the recording of such a loan in the passport office is a very routine procedure. apparently there is some question as to whether a lookout card was inserted in the lookout file at the time that the repatriation loan was made to oswald. the passport office must depend on the office of finance to inform it with regard to repatriation loans. we require certain information such as the name of the individual, the place and date of birth, and other information which will identify the individual in our files. it is very important that this information be complete and accurate to guard against embarrassing situations which could develop from misidentification. the criteria for the procedure were developed over several years by the office of finance in cooperation with the passport office. memorandum between the passport office and the office of finance have been provided to the commission. the important one is dated january , , and spells out the criteria that we established by mutual consent. the passport office was and is directly concerned with only two actions in repatriation cases. the insertion of an accurate and identifiable card in the lookout file and the prompt removal of such a card when the loan has been repaid. between august and december there was a purge of our lookout file because the cards were so shoddy and unreadable that they had to be refreshed. we call them cards. but they actually were not cards, merely slips of pink paper by inches which were very badly worn and torn. more than million applications are cleared over this file annually, and it was imperative for us to find a system which would provide fast and accurate clearances. during the renovation of this lookout file we found over , cards relating to repatriation loans which were unidentifiable. they had been in the file for decades, and they were of no value. they failed to give us any leads to either the passport or security files. the individuals involved may long since have passed to their reward. we did not know what had happened to them so we took these cards out of the files. the record indicates that the finance office did not have oswald's place and date of birth, and did not advise the passport office of the repatriation loan. there may have been efforts to obtain the information necessary to make up a lookout card and this may have been suspended because oswald started a series of payments within weeks of the loan. in any case, the passport office was notified when the loan was fully paid about months later, which was january . had a card been placed in the lookout file it would have been removed upon such notification. in other words, there would have been no card in the files relating to the repatriation loan at the time oswald made his application for a passport at the new orleans passport agency on june , . mr. coleman. miss knight, when oswald was issued the june passport, i take it that there was no reference made to his passport file, is that correct? miss knight. no reference was made to his passport file. when he made his application at the new orleans agency it was handled in a routine manner which i believe has been described to the commission in some documents we prepared for you. oswald's name was included in a list of applicants sent by teletype from new orleans to washington for clearance over the lookout file. it was cleared within a day. there was no card relating to the repatriation loan because oswald had made his final payment on the loan months prior to his application for the passport. there was no lookout card relating to loss of nationality because it had been determined by that time he had committed no expatriative act and therefore did not lose his citizenship. there was no lookout card on oswald indicating that he was under indictment or wanted by an investigative agency or by the police. there was no fraud committed, and there was no evidence that he was a member of the communist party or active in it. in other words, there was nothing on record in our files in june which would have given the passport office any reason for delaying or denying lee harvey oswald a passport. mr. coleman. is it your testimony that if when the teletype had come in from new orleans, and someone in your office had gone and looked at the passport file, and found out that oswald attempted to defect in and had made the statements that he made at the embassy in , that nevertheless you feel that under the existing regulations you would have to issue him a passport? miss knight. yes; we would. we wouldn't have had a lookout card based on that at the time of his application for a passport because all the situations we mentioned were resolved by that time. mr. coleman. i would like to show you a commission document which has already been marked as exhibit no. , which is the standard operating notice of the passport office, dated february , , and ask you are you familiar with this document? miss knight. excuse me for a second, please. there is one subsequent to this. mr. coleman. yes; but that is the one that was in effect as of june , isn't it? miss knight. yes. mr. coleman. attached thereto is a list which indicates the various categories for the lookout card. miss knight. that is right. mr. coleman. would you look at category k, and i would like to ask you whether the information which was in the file on mr. oswald, including the fbi reports, which were in the file of june , should have caused oswald to be put in category k? miss knight. no; i don't think so. mr. coleman. how about category r? mr. dulles. could you read category k? miss knight. yes; certainly. "k" is "known or suspected communist or subversive". and "does not include those falling within categories o and p". mr. coleman. would you tell me what "o" and "p" categories are? miss knight. "o" is a category of cards in which the fbi has special interest. and "p" is also a project of the same sort. mr. coleman. has the fbi ever put defectors in that category? miss knight. yes; we are given the names and we put a lookout card in the file. but we are not told the reason why. we simply advise the agency involved. mr. coleman. in other words, if the fbi merely sends you a report on a particular person, that wouldn't cause you to put someone in "o" and "p"? it is only when the fbi says put the person in "o" or "p"? miss knight. only when a request is specific. mr. coleman. how about category "r", if you will put that in the record. representative ford. may i ask a question first, what is the criteria for the determination as to whether or not a person is a communist? miss knight. well, the criteria are based on the information that we get from the investigative agencies regarding his activities and membership in the communist party. i think that it would help you very much if, for instance, i would spell out what the lookout file actually is and how it operates in the passport office and just what the categories mean to us. this would only take a minute and i think this would clarify things. mr. coleman. i have picked out the categories that i think you would have to consider, and that is the reason i put the question to you. miss knight. the purpose of the file is rather important because it is twofold. its principal role is to identify the applications which require other than routine adjudication in determining an applicant's eligibility for passport services. the second role of the file is to identify certain incoming applications and to insure expeditious action on them. as background, i think it is important to know, that prior to the lookout file was part of a master index comprising million by inch cards. mr. dulles. million? miss knight. million. within this voluminous file were , pink slips. now these were known in those days as "catch cards," and these were withdrawn in to establish the nucleus of the present lookout file. the reason for doing so was quite obvious. it was impossible and totally impracticable to clear every passport application across a million card file which was expanding at the rate of million cards a year. cards at that time were being made for every applicant and his relatives who were listed on the passport application. every individual whose name appeared in any investigative report which was sent to the passport office, whether or not the individual applied for a passport; every individual who appeared before an investigative committee of congress, whether or not he applied for a passport; as well as persons whose names appeared in such situations as gambling raids, lottery winners, and so forth. these were all in the passport file, and part of the master index. file experts from the general services administration estimated at that time that percent of this master index was misfiled. by a program of refinement in and , the lookout file was reduced to , cards. we felt we were reasonably safe in disregarding catch cards on persons who were a hundred years old or over. so these were eliminated from the files. from the standpoint of accuracy in identification, the cards that remained still left much to be desired in the file. now again i would say these were not "cards" in any sense that they had physical substance. they were by inch slips of tissue-thin pink paper. they were very mutilated and many of them were totally illegible. many of them were of no significance since they contained no identifying data, such as place or date of birth, no full names, no reason for the inclusion in the file. as far as we could determine they were not related to anything in the passport office. so further culling and screening reduced this basic file to the present size of , cards. this project was very---- mr. dulles. is that two or four? miss knight. now. mr. dulles. . it is different. miss knight. we had reduced it to , and we culled it some more and it is now , . mr. dulles. that is a reduction from the earlier , ? miss knight. that is right. this project was very time-consuming and tedious but it had to be done, and it was completed in , at which time we transferred all the data on the cards we considered active onto a permanent ibm key punch card system which was coded and legible. to relate this file, this tremendous file, to the oswald case, i think it should be remembered that the passport office is not a police organization, nor is it an investigative agency. we must depend on other sources in and out of the government to supply us with the information which we must adjudicate under the criteria of the passport regulations. when we issued a passport to oswald in june we felt that he had not expatriated himself and that determination was made. mr. coleman. in you didn't make any judgment at all. he just wasn't in the lookout file so you just issued it. you didn't make any independent judgment at that time in , did you? miss knight. if we had thought he had expatriated himself we would have had a card in his file. mr. coleman. yes; but in no decision was made. miss knight. there was no question raised. there was never a question at that time. mr. coleman. it was never a question because your office never looked at the file. miss knight. not at the file, but his application was checked over the lookout cards. mr. coleman. yes. miss knight. oswald didn't owe money to the government, and he was not involved in fraud or criminal activity. so, in retrospect, i feel that oswald could have had a catch card inserted in the lookout file under a very broad and undefined category which is right here, as number "r" and that is, "individuals whose actions do not reflect credit to the united states abroad," but for practical reasons this category is very narrowly construed in view of the hundreds of u.s. citizen bad-check artists, the drunks, the con men, the psychotics who travel worldwide, and so forth. my office is deluged with requests from irate u.s. citizens returning from abroad asking us to do something about some of the people they find traveling overseas. we have no such authority, and we are not in a position to determine the good or bad behavior of u.s. citizens here or abroad. (at this point, senator cooper entered the hearing room.) i think it is a debatable question as to whether oswald fell into this broad category of "r" and finally there was no request in the file from any government agency or any area of the government for a lookout card on oswald for this reason or any other reason at the time that his passport was issued. mr. dulles. who finally determines whether a lookout card should be made? would you determine that or in your office? miss knight. that would be determined within our domestic operation division, our foreign operation or our legal division. an adjudicator, for instance, is the first person to make a decision. mr. dulles. if the fbi or cia asked you to put in a card you would do it? miss knight. yes, sir; and this is part of "o" and "p" project. mr. dulles. would you read again that paragraph about communist or communist sympathizer? miss knight. category k is, "known or suspected communist or subversive." mr. dulles. and you interpret that pretty narrowly? miss knight. yes. representative ford. why do you interpret it narrowly? mr. dulles. well, this goes back to a question of passport regulations and the decision, the supreme court decision in the kent-briehl case and passport denials. i believe we sent you the regulations currently in effect. mr. coleman. the record will note that it is attached to commission exhibit no. , which is the letter from mr. chayes. miss knight. would you like an extra copy of it? mr. dulles. may i ask a further question there? when you issue a passport limited solely to returning to the united states, isn't that some indication that you don't want the fellow traveling around abroad? miss knight. there would be some indication, yes, but there may be many reasons for it. it may be a general indication that he should not be traveling around abroad. mr. dulles. so that normally you wouldn't issue a passport with that limitation and then let him come right into the passport office and reissue a passport to go abroad. miss knight. well, if it is a case which merits a stop card we wouldn't do it. but in this case of oswald---- mr. dulles. in this case would there be a stop card? miss knight. in the case of oswald? mr. dulles. no; i mean in the case of anybody who is abroad and you issue him a passport only to travel back to the united states, to get him back to the united states, if then in the next week he went into the passport office and wanted a passport to travel back to europe, which means russia if he wants to go to russia, would you issue him a passport or would you not? miss knight. i think that depends very much on the record that we would have on him. the issuance of passports is pretty well defined in the new regulations. i would say that a decade ago a passport application for oswald would have been denied, or at least it would have been substantially delayed. but this was prior to the supreme court decision of june , . prior to that there was very little challenge to the secretary's discretionary authority in the issuance of passports. but i think it is important to realize that the supreme court in its decision held that there was no legislative authority for the secretary's regulations in denying a passport to persons supporting the world communist movement. the court stated in that decision that the freedom of travel is indeed an important aspect of the citizen's liberty. since that time congress has made numerous attempts to provide legislation to curb the travel of u.s. communists, and those citizens whose travel abroad is not in the best interests of the united states, but for one reason or another congress has failed to pass any such legislation. on january , , the secretary of state promulgated passport regulations which provide for the confrontation and full discovery in all cases involving the curtailment of passport privileges. so, as a result, the department's decisions in all passport cases have to be based on an open record. it is quite evident that these regulations make it virtually impossible to deny passports to u.s. communists because the source and record and details of their nefarious activities are not an open record, as you well know, and quite obviously they cannot be made an open record by the government. mr. coleman. don't you have a specific statute and a specific regulation which says that if a person is a member of the communist party after it has been required to register that you have to deny him a passport? miss knight. this is true, but with these regulations, we are directed to issue passports to active members of the communist party despite the fact that section of the internal security act prohibits the issuance of passports to those individuals whom we have reason to believe or know are members of the communist party. mr. coleman. what regulation requires you to issue them a passport? miss knight. well, the department's regulations are very specific on this point. they state and i quote, "in making its decision"---- senator cooper. could you identify the regulation? miss knight. yes, sir; it is . (b). would you like me to read that section? mr. coleman. yes. miss knight. all right. "(b) the applicant shall, upon request by the hearing officer, confirm his oral statements in an affidavit for the record. after the applicant has presented his case, the passport office shall review the record and advise the applicant of its decision. in making its decision, the passport office shall not take into consideration confidential security information that is not made available to the applicant in accordance with paragraph (a) of this section. if the decision is adverse to the applicant, he shall be notified in writing, and the notification shall state the reasons for the decision. such notification shall also inform the applicant of his right to appeal to the board of passport appeals under section . ." mr. coleman. what in there says you have to issue a passport to a person that you know is a member of the communist party after there has been a decision that the communist party has to register under the act? miss knight. in accordance with these regulations we cannot consider information in the passport file if that information is confidential and can't be used in open court or in an open hearing. the information on persons who are involved in the communist activities is, for the most part, confidential information and cannot be revealed in open court. mr. coleman. you say, if you have an fbi report which says that "mr. so and so" is a member of the communist party, and that is in your record, and if he applies for a passport, you have to issue him that passport? miss knight. under the regulations of the department we would have to issue him a passport if the information in the fbi report cannot be made public. representative ford. there has to be information which is confidential, however? miss knight. well, the information in the report and the determination as to whether that information can be made public and can be used in court is made by the investigative agency that provides it. representative ford. well, if the agency, the security agency has a card issued by the communist party to this individual, and that information is given to the applicant, you can still deny this passport under section . , can't you? miss knight. you mean if the fbi, let's say an fbi report, gave us information that the person is an active member of the communist party? representative ford. that he has actually, just for illustrative purposes, a card issued by the communist party and the department gives this information to the applicant, it is not confidential, it is given to the applicant, can't you deny a passport under section . ? miss knight. yes; yes. representative ford. well, then, i think the answer is that you do have authority to deny passports to communists where the information---- miss knight. is made available. representative ford. is made available. miss knight. yes; where the information is made available and can be used in an open hearing. but from a practical operation, this is very difficult to do because most of the information in the fbi reports is confidential and by bringing forth their informers they certainly destroy their security. mr. coleman. miss knight, the same regulation that is in effect today was also the regulation in effect in , isn't it? miss knight. yes. mr. coleman. now, as of march , , didn't the department establish another category for lookout cards, namely for defectors? miss knight. yes; we have that. i think that was provided to the commission. mr. coleman. yes. miss knight. yes. mr. coleman. now, you do that under whatever authority that you had as of , don't you? you haven't been given any additional congressional authority, have you? miss knight. no; but we haven't denied passports to any of them, either. mr. coleman. does that mean that despite this memorandum from mr. schwartz to you under date of march , , if a known defector came in and asked for a passport, you would issue him one today? miss knight. no; we wouldn't issue. a card would be put in the lookout file to indicate that this person was a defector, and in such a case the file would go to mr. johnson's office, our legal counsel. it would be referred to his security branch, and be adjudicated. however, i don't believe that a passport could be denied to them on the basis of that. mr. coleman. now, you know that in october the passport office received information that mr. oswald had been down to the russian embassy in mexico? miss knight. that is correct. mr. coleman. would that fact cause the department to attempt to revoke a passport which had already been issued? miss knight. no, sir; because there are many u.s. citizens who go to soviet embassies, and the fact he went there may have been for the purpose of getting information; it certainly was not a reason to deny a passport. representative ford. there aren't many people like lee harvey oswald, with a record of that background. it would seem to me that that, the availability of that information, ought to have flagged some interest some place in the state department or the passport office. miss knight. well, in my opinion, passports are being issued today to individuals whose activities and past record of behavior are patently more detrimental to the security and best interests of the united states than any report or any record that we had in the file of lee harvey oswald. representative ford. that may be true, and i might agree with you, but we can only deal with the specific case, and it concerns me that this information which was made available, somehow didn't get some attention in the passport division. miss knight. i think my answer to that is that there was attention given to it but there was no action that could be taken on it. the fact that we gave attention to it is beside the point. if we had had a lookout card in the file, and under different circumstances, there may have been some reason for seeking further information. i do know that the fbi was reviewing his file at regular intervals, and i think the file shows that. to get the full import of our action one would have to read the security files and the records of certain individuals to whom we have been forced to give passports, and put them beside the oswald file. the comparison would be very interesting. senator cooper. might i ask just a few questions? first, let me say i missed part of the testimony because i was in the senate and could not come here until after we had voted. i am now looking at federal register, title --foreign relations, chapter : department of state, part , dealing with passports. this title refers to the issuing officer. who is the issuing officer? does that mean you or those who are under you, who are responsible to you? miss knight. well, this is a question. up until recently, i think the director of the passport office was considered the issuing officer. however, passports are issued in the name of the secretary of state, who has the authority and the responsibility on passports. senator cooper. and you are responsible to the secretary of state? miss knight. through the echelons. senator cooper. yes. now, representative ford and mr. dulles have gone into this, as well as counsel, but i would like to pursue it just a little bit. section . , entitled "denial of passports to members of communist organizations," states, "a passport shall not be issued to, or renewed for, any individual who the issuing officer knows or has reason to believe is a member of a communist organization registered or required to be registered under section of the subversive activities control act of , as amended." was there any evidence in the files of lee harvey oswald which could give to the issuing officer either the knowledge that he was a member of a communist organization or such evidence as would lead the issuing officer to believe that he was? miss knight. no, sir. senator cooper. why do you say that? miss knight. because, there was nothing in the passport file or in the reports that we received from investigative agencies that would indicate that he had any communist leanings or any communist affiliations prior to his sojourn in the soviet union. senator cooper. there wasn't anything in his file from the reports of the state department concerning his defection to russia and his return which indicated that he was a member of the communist party? miss knight. no, sir. senator cooper. or a communist organization? miss knight. no, sir. senator cooper. was there anything in the files from the fbi or any other security agency which would give you that information? miss knight. none that i saw; no, sir. i do know that there were two recent intelligence reports from the fbi, and they were dated october , , and october , , and these were logged into the passport office on november , , and on november , , respectively. senator cooper. they were then, of course, would have been, received in the office after the time. miss knight. that was the date of the assassination. senator cooper. after the time that the passport had been renewed. mr. coleman. that included the information that he was active in the fair play for cuba committee. miss knight. that is correct, and these were referred to us by the office of security, and then on : a.m. on november , , these reports were called for on an urgent basis by the administrator of the bureau of security and consular affairs and we delivered them to him at approximately : that morning. i never saw these reports and no one in the passport office had an opportunity to read them or see them. senator cooper. the point i am making is, am i correct or are you correct, when you say at the time oswald's passport was either issued or renewed to make the trip to mexico city, that there was no evidence in his files of any kind which would indicate that he was a member of a communist organization? miss knight. no, sir; there was nothing in the file. senator cooper. what weight would you give to the fact that he had defected and had returned to the united states, and had claimed once that he wanted to renounce american citizenship? would that be a fact to which you would give weight in determining whether or not you believed he was a member of the communist organization? miss knight. yes, sir; i understand your question. i did not adjudicate the oswald citizenship case. but i would say that the adjudicators must have taken into consideration his instability which was reported in the dispatches, his attitude, his age, he was years old at the time, and the fact that when he finally made his appeal to come back to the united states, he denied that he had asked for soviet citizenship, that he was considered a soviet citizen, and he further denied that he had offered anybody information. he denied practically everything that he, in very bad temper, had told the consul that he was going to do. this, i think, is fairly well established in the document he signed, and which was sent to us when his passport was renewed and limited for return to the united states. senator cooper. i am first directing my attention to the issuance or renewal of the passport which enabled him to go to mexico city. i want to keep on that for a moment. miss knight. he didn't have a passport for mexico city. senator cooper. not a passport for mexico city. mr. coleman. he had the passport in june . senator cooper. yes; to go over to cuba and different places. miss knight. we did not know, and there was nothing, i think i am right about this, there is nothing in our files to indicate that he went to cuba or that he went to the cuban embassy in mexico city. i understand this was brought out. mr. coleman. yes; that is true. miss knight. is that right? mr. dulles. not until october . mr. coleman. even then, mr. dulles, they didn't know. the notice they got from mexico only stated that he had been at the soviet embassy and not that he had been over to the cuban embassy. mr. dulles. is that correct? mr. coleman. yes. senator cooper. the point i am trying to develop at some point in prior to the assassination he went to the office in new orleans. miss knight. that is right, the new orleans passport agency. senator cooper. and he secured a passport there. miss knight. he applied for a passport. senator cooper. to travel, applied for a passport, to travel in a number of countries. miss knight. that is right. senator cooper. and that was issued to him. miss knight. that is right. senator cooper. on the following day? miss knight. that is right. senator cooper. at that time, of course, the issuing officer was under the restrictions of the regulations here that we have been talking about. what would the officer--would the officer in new orleans have any information available to him? miss knight. no, sir. senator cooper. about oswald? miss knight. no, sir; the operation works like this: new orleans is one of eight passport agencies in the united states. they are connected with the main office by teletype. oswald made an application for a passport at the new orleans agency, and they twx'd to us, his name and identification--that is, date and place of birth, and so on. his name was one on a list of names. there may have been or of them. mr. coleman. the record shows there were . miss knight. . these names were then checked over the lookout file which i have explained here. senator cooper. here in washington? miss knight. yes; and if there is no card in the lookout file, it is presumed that he is clear, because if we had information that he was an active communist, or that we had reason to believe that there should be further check on him, this would have been reflected in the lookout file. there was no such card in the file. senator cooper. all right. at that time, then, when he had made his application and the information was sent to your office, there was no lookout card? miss knight. no, sir. senator cooper. which would indicate that he was a communist or a member of a communist organization, registered, and so forth. and did you have such a system then? miss knight. yes, sir. senator cooper. of lookout cards? miss knight. yes, sir; we have had that system for a long time. senator cooper. was your reason for not having a lookout card for oswald, that there wasn't anything in his file to indicate that he was a member of a communist organization? miss knight. that is correct. senator cooper. is that the reason? miss knight. that is correct. because the fbi reports which had come to the passport office during his sojourn in the soviet union and after, did not indicate that he was a communist. as a matter of fact, they were concerned with several other things, his mother's concern regarding his whereabouts, the fact that he had made a declaration that he wished to become a soviet citizen; and the question of expatriation. but there was nothing in the files to indicate that he had had any contact or any active part in the communist party. senator cooper. the fact that he had married a russian girl and brought her to the united states have any significance in the determination that the issuing officer would have to make? miss knight. no. senator cooper. you are sure that the fbi nor any other security agency had placed any information in that file which would fall within the scope of this first section dealing with, applicable to passports? miss knight. i am sure of that; yes, sir. senator cooper. have you yourself examined those files? miss knight. i examined the file last saturday for the first time. senator cooper. and do you know who had charge of the file? miss knight. the file was in the passport office up until november , the day of the assassination. senator cooper. where did it go then? miss knight. it went to the bureau of security and consular affairs, to mr. schwartz. senator cooper. who is in charge there? miss knight. mr. schwartz. he is the administrator. mr. ehrlich. i might add he turned them over immediately, he turned them over to mr. chayes who was authorized to take charge of all files and they were maintained in the office of the legal adviser. and anyone in the department who wanted to review them was free to do so but we kept them all in one place. senator cooper. have you been testifying? mr. ehrlich. i have broken in. senator cooper. just for the purpose of the record identify yourself. mr. ehrlich. i have not been sworn in. my name is thomas ehrlich, i am special assistant to the legal adviser to the department of state. mr. dulles. i might add mr. chayes testified in some detail that he was asked by mr. ball, acting secretary of state, on the night, afternoon, late afternoon and late evening of the assassination, to get all the files regarding oswald together and to prepare for him and the secretary of state, who was returning the next morning, a detailed report on the whole oswald case, and i assume that the file went from you to mr. schwartz, to mr. chayes. and from there mr. chayes collected reports from other sources. miss knight. that is right. senator cooper. i am not questioning any fact that these people testified to but i think for the record it is important to know where the file was and whether or not it is the same file, with the same papers in it that were in existence on november , which you turned over to your superior. miss knight. well, of course, we presume all the papers are in there. the file was pretty thick, and, of course, it takes time to go over the papers. we had not time to look at the file or to check it, and there is no way of knowing whether any papers were taken in or out. mr. coleman. senator cooper, we have the files and we also have letters from mr. chayes that to the best of his knowledge and ability every piece of paper which the state department had which in any way bore on oswald has now been turned over to the commission and those letters were marked today. senator cooper. i go a little further. look at . , "limitations on issuance of passports to certain other persons. "in order to promote and safeguard the interests of the united states, passport facilities, except for direct and immediate return to the united states, shall be refused to a person when it appears to the satisfaction of the secretary of state that the person's activities abroad would: (a) violate the laws of the united states; (b) be prejudicial to the orderly conduct of foreign relations; or (c) otherwise be prejudicial to the interests of the united states." now, at the time this passport was issued to oswald in new orleans, was there any information in his passport file about his conduct in new orleans in connection with the fair play for cuba committee? miss knight. there was nothing in the passport file on that. it is my understanding that there were two fbi reports that had come in and they were logged into the passport office on november and november . senator cooper. i know, but i am thinking of june , . this decision to issue a passport to oswald to go to mexico and various other countries was made on when? mr. coleman. june , . senator cooper. was there any information in his file relative to his participation in the fair play for cuba committee in new orleans? miss knight. no, sir. senator cooper. the first information that came to the office came in november? miss knight. november and . senator cooper. and november . miss knight. and i think, senator, you would be interested to know that these fbi reports are sent to us by the office of security. a large volume of these reports come to us in the passport office on a very routine basis. the last months of over , such reports were received, that is security reports a month, and in order to be effective and to render the ultimate in security these reports should be read by individuals who are knowledgeable; who are trained to spot information of security significance. the staff that is assigned to this task is very limited, and it is heavily overburdened with many assignments, some of which take priority to the reading of reports, and it is physically impossible for the present staff of our legal division, which is headed by mr. johnson, to read and analyze the information in these reports as promptly and as thoroughly as should be done. the eternal question that we are faced with is a matter of diminishing returns. it is almost impossible to staff the passport office percent for security and with knowledgeability of everything that goes on, and in the course of the year the passport office puts in thousands of hours of overtime, uncompensated overtime, trying to catch up with this work and believe me, this makes little or no impression on the vast amount of paperwork, the reading, the reporting and the analyzing of reports which come in to us. senator cooper. i can see your problem. but now, assuming that this report from the fbi about oswald's activities in new orleans with the fair play for cuba committee in which he was distributing material, and had been arrested, and was operating under assumed names, had been known, had been in the file at the time the application for a passport to go to mexico and other countries had been made, would that have been of any significance? miss knight. oh, yes, sir. senator cooper. in determining whether or not a passport should be issued? miss knight. yes, sir; very definitely. if those reports had reached us prior to the passport application we certainly would have put a card in the file. as a matter of fact, it seems to me that if they had come to the passport office we would have advised the bureau of security and consular affairs that this had become a cuban case. these are handled by mr. schwartz personally. senator cooper. do you know when the report from the fbi concerning oswald's activities in new orleans in the fair play for cuba committee reached the state department rather than the passport division? miss knight. when it reached the department, i don't know. i think maybe mr. ehrlich might know. mr. ehrlich. i will look to see if i have it. miss knight. i have the dates of them. senator cooper. will you give the date? miss knight. the date of the reports? senator cooper. the date when it was sent, when it was received. miss knight. the reports were dated october , , and october , , and they were logged into the passport office on november , , and november , . senator cooper. all of those dates are after the date of the issuance of the passport? miss knight. yes, sir. senator cooper. i have just one more thing i want to inquire about. are you familiar with the--were you the chief of the passport division at the time oswald returned from russia to the united states? miss knight. yes, sir. senator cooper. who was empowered to issue passports in moscow to oswald? miss knight. well, it was the consul, but he would not issue a passport or, in this particular case even limit the passport for return to the united states, without clearance from our office. senator cooper. then when oswald made his application to return to the united states and to secure a passport to return to the united states, that application had to be cleared by the division, your division, in washington? miss knight. yes. senator cooper. did you make the determination as to whether the passport should be issued to him? miss knight. i personally did not. this was made by experienced citizenship lawyers. senator cooper. by whom? miss knight. the decision was made by experienced citizenship lawyers in the foreign operations division of the passport office. it was determined that oswald had not expatriated himself. he had signed the necessary papers and he answered the required questionnaire under oath, and to the satisfaction of the passport office. both the consul, who had an opportunity to talk to oswald, and the citizenship lawyers, who handled the case in the passport office, were in agreement that he had not expatriated himself. mr. dulles. those details are in the file in considerable extent. mr. coleman. senator cooper, for the record let me note we have oswald's passport which is commission exhibit no. and it states on page thereof that the passport was renewed on may , , and it expired on june , , and it also stated when mr. oswald came into the united states on june , . senator cooper. i have just two more questions then. one, at the time you issued the passport that oswald was issued in new orleans to go to mexico and the other countries there was no requirement at that time that a lookout card be fixed to his file as a defector? miss knight. no, sir. senator cooper. whatever decision has been made on that has come since that time? miss knight. when you say "defector," the answer to that is in the questionnaire. senator cooper. when i say "defector," was there any regulation, i mean in the department, which required any special attention to be given to a defector---- miss knight. no, sir. senator cooper. with regard to the issuance of passports? miss knight. no, sir; and we cannot deny them passports. senator cooper. my last question is, is it your statement that at the time you issued the passport in moscow for his return to the united states, at the time the passport was issued in new orleans, , for his trip to mexico and other countries, that there was nothing in the regulations relevant and nothing in the files which precluded you from issuing a passport to him? miss knight. this is my opinion; yes, sir. mr. coleman. i have no other questions. mr. dulles. i have no further questions. mr. coleman. thank you, miss knight. we appreciate your coming in. (whereupon, at : p.m., the president's commission recessed.) _thursday, june , _ testimony of mrs. lee harvey oswald and harris coulter the president's commission met at : a.m., on june , , at maryland avenue ne., washington, dc. present were chief justice earl warren, chairman; senator john sherman cooper, representative gerald ford, and allen w. dulles, members. also present were j. lee rankin, general counsel; norman redlich, assistant counsel; harris coulter, interpreter; leon jaworski, special counsel to the attorney general of texas; william mckenzie, attorney for mrs. lee harvey oswald; and charles murray, observer. testimony of mrs. lee harvey oswald resumed the chairman. the commission will be in order. shall we reswear mrs. oswald? mr. rankin. i would think her former swearing would be sufficient, mr. chief justice. the chairman. very well. you consider yourself under oath, do you, mrs. oswald? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, we would like to have you tell about the incident in regard to mr. nixon that you have told about since we had your last examination. could you tell us what you know about that incident, first, when it happened insofar as you can recall? mrs. oswald. i am very sorry i didn't mention this before. i prefer that you ask me the questions and that will help me to remember what there is. mr. rankin. can you tell us what mr. nixon it is, was it richard nixon, the former vice president of the united states that you were referring to? mrs. oswald. i only know one nixon and i think it was richard nixon which it was all about. mr. rankin. can you fix the date when this occurrence did happen? approximately? mrs. oswald. it was a weekend before he went to new orleans and after the walker business i think. but i might be mistaken as to whether or not this was a weekend because i am basing this on the fact that my husband was home and he wasn't--wasn't always employed and he was at home weekdays as well sometimes, so i can't be entirely sure that it was a weekend. mr. rankin. can you place the place of the various homes you had that this happened? mrs. oswald. neely street. mr. rankin. at the neely street house. do you know what time of day it occurred? mrs. oswald. this was in the morning. mr. rankin. who was there? mrs. oswald. just my husband and me. mr. rankin. now, will you describe in detail just what happened. mrs. oswald, when you are answering the questions will you try to break up your answers, and let the interpreter try to translate; i think it will be helpful in not having the interpreter have to try to remember everything of a long answer. do you understand me? mr. dulles. may i suggest also, mr. rankin, that i think it would be preferable that the record be in the first person, that is, the interpreter translate just as she said it. i was looking over the earlier record and that is the way it was over the earlier record and it went quite well. mrs. oswald. it was early in the morning and my husband went out to get a newspaper, then he came in and sat reading the newspaper. i didn't pay any attention to him because i was occupied with the housework. then he got dressed and put on a good suit. i saw that he took a pistol. i asked him where he was going, and why he was getting dressed. he answered, "nixon is coming. i want to go and have a look." i said, "i know how you look," or rather, "i know how you customarily look, how you customarily take a look," because i saw he was taking the pistol with him rather than i know how you look in the sense that you are dressed, how you look at things is what i mean. mr. rankin. had it come to your attention, mrs. oswald, that mr. nixon was going to be in dallas prior to that time? mrs. oswald. no; it did not. mr. rankin. had you seen anything in the newspapers or heard anything over the radio or television? mrs. oswald. no; we didn't have tv. i didn't see this in the newspaper. mr. dulles. do you know what newspaper it was in which your husband read this report? mrs. oswald. no; dallas morning news maybe. it was a morning paper. mr. rankin. do you know whether there was any information at all in the papers about mr. nixon planning to come to dallas about that time? mrs. oswald. i didn't ever read the newspaper and i did not know; therefore, didn't know whether there was any information in the newspapers prior to this time about vice president nixon's arrival in dallas. representative ford. could we establish the date more precisely, either by the newspapers or by testimony from mrs. oswald? (at this point, the chief justice left the hearing room.) mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, can you help us by telling how many days it was before you went to new orleans that this incident occurred? mrs. oswald. what day did i go to new orleans? mr. rankin. do you recall that your husband went to new orleans on april ? mrs. oswald. april ? my husband? mr. rankin. yes; and you went at a later date with mrs. paine, do you remember that? mrs. oswald. i remember it was about weeks before. mr. rankin. two weeks before april ? mrs. oswald. yes; but when was the incident with walker? mr. rankin. april was the walker incident. does that help you? mrs. oswald. this is a short distance, you know, i think maybe---- mr. rankin. so you think it had to be sometime between april and april ? mrs. oswald. this may be days or more. i think it was closer to the time when my husband left for new orleans than it was to the incident of general walker. i think it was less than a week before my husband left for new orleans. i did not think up this incident with nixon myself. mr. rankin. what do you mean by that, mrs. oswald? mrs. oswald. i had forgotten entirely about the incident with vice president nixon when i was here the first time. when you asked me the questions about it, then i remembered it. i wasn't trying to deceive you the first time. mr. rankin. what did your husband say that day about richard nixon, when he got this gun and dressed up. did he tell you anything about him? mrs. oswald. no; i just didn't know what to do, you know. mr. rankin. how did you know he was interested in doing something about mr. nixon at that time? mrs. oswald. my husband just said that nixon is coming to dallas. mr. rankin. then what did you do? mrs. oswald. first i didn't know what to do. i wanted to prevent him from going out. mr. rankin. did you say anything to him? mrs. oswald. i called him into the bathroom and i closed the door and i wanted to prevent him and then i started to cry. and i told him that he shouldn't do this, that he had promised me. mr. rankin. are you referring to his promise to you that you described in your prior testimony after the walker incident? mrs. oswald. yes; that was the promise. mr. rankin. do you recall the bathroom, how the door closes? does it close into the bathroom on neely street or from the outside in? mrs. oswald. i don't remember now. i don't remember. i only remember that it was something to do with the bathroom. mr. rankin. did you lock him into the bathroom? mrs. oswald. i can't remember precisely. mr. rankin. do you recall how the locks were on the bathroom door there? mrs. oswald. i can't recall. we had several apartments and i might be confusing one apartment with the other. mr. rankin. is it your testimony that you made it impossible for him to get out if he wanted to? mrs. oswald. i don't remember. representative ford. did he try to get out of the bathroom? mrs. oswald. i remember that i held him. we actually struggled for several minutes and then he quieted down. i remember that i told him that if he goes out it would be better for him to kill me than to go out. mr. dulles. he is quite a big man and you are a small woman. mrs. oswald. no; he is not a big man. he is not strong. mr. dulles. well, he was feet , and you are how tall? mrs. oswald. when he is very upset, my husband is very upset he is not strong and when i want to and when i collect all my forces and want to do something very badly i am stronger than he is. mr. dulles. you meant mentally or physically? mrs. oswald. i am not strong but, you know, there is a certain balance of forces between us. mr. dulles. do you think it was persuasion, your persuasion of him or the physical force or both that prevented him from going? mrs. oswald. i don't think it was physically, physical prevention because if he--i couldn't keep him from going out if he really wanted to. it might have been that he was just trying to test me. he was the kind of person who could try and wound somebody in that way. possibly he didn't want to go out at all but was just doing this all as a sort of joke, not really as a joke but rather to simply wound me, to make me feel bad. mr. mckenzie. mr. rankin, if i may interpose here for a moment. mrs. oswald has been interrogated at length by the fbi in connection with this particular incident--the nixon incident. i feel confident that the fbi has made a written report insofar as her testimony is concerned in their interrogation, but for purposes of the record i have no objection whatsoever for the fbi report to be included in the record as part of the record. mr. rankin. thank you, mr. mckenzie. we will incorporate those reports as a part of the record in regard to this incident, if that is agreeable to the commission. mr. mckenzie. the reason i say that is because of the fact that those interrogations were conducted at an earlier date and closer to the actual incident, the state of time to the actual incidents than her interrogation here today, and insofar as dates are concerned i think that her mind would be clearer on those dates, and i likewise know that at that time a russian interpreter was there. mr. rankin. mr. mckenzie, i think with the members of the commission here that i want to ask a number of questions about this incident because of its importance so they can observe the witness as well as have the benefit of her testimony. mr. mckenzie. mr. rankin, in no way am i suggesting otherwise but if it would help the commission in evaluating her testimony and evaluating the evidence that it has had heretofore in prior testimony we have no objection to those reports being a part of the record in any way. mr. rankin. thank you. mrs. oswald. i might be mistaken about some of the details of this incident but it is very definite he got dressed, took a gun, and then didn't go out. the reason why there might be some confusion in my mind about the details because it happened in other apartments in which we lived that we quarreled and then i would shut him in the bathroom, and in this particular case it may not have happened quite that way, but there is no doubt that he got dressed and had a gun. mr. rankin. do you remember what you said to him and what he said to you at that time? mrs. oswald. i don't remember now but i told the fbi precisely. mr. rankin. and were your reports to the fbi in regard to this incident accurate, truthful, and correct? mrs. oswald. they were correct as far as i could remember. the only detail as far as my memory served me--the only detail which might be confused is the one with the bathroom. mr. rankin. had your husband said anything before or did he say anything at that time in regard to mr. nixon showing any hostility, friendship, or anything else? mrs. oswald. showing any hostility or friendship toward mr. nixon? mr. rankin. yes; toward nixon. mrs. oswald. i don't remember him saying anything--i don't remember but he didn't tell me. i don't remember him saying anything of that sort. i only remember the next day he told me that nixon did not come. excuse me. mr. rankin. yes. mrs. oswald. the fbi suggested that possibly i was confused between johnson and nixon but there is no question that in this incident it was a question of mr. nixon. i remember distinctly the name nixon because i read from the presidential elections that there was a choice between president kennedy and mr. nixon. representative ford. where did your husband get the pistol that morning; do you remember? mrs. oswald. what, where? representative ford. where. mrs. oswald. my husband had a small room where he kept all that sort of thing. it is a little larger than a closet. representative ford. did you see him go in and get the pistol? mrs. oswald. i didn't see him go into the room. i only saw him standing before the open door and putting the pistol in his pocket. representative ford. do you recall which pocket he put the pistol in? mrs. oswald. it was not in a pocket. he put it in his belt. (discussion off the record.) mr. dulles. had you and your husband ever discussed mr. nixon at a previous, at any previous time? mrs. oswald. no. no. mr. rankin. what else happened about this incident beyond what you have told us? mrs. oswald. he took off his suit and stayed home all day reading a book. he gave me the pistol and i hid it under the mattress. mr. rankin. did you say anything more than you have told us to him about this matter at that time? mrs. oswald. i closed the front door to the building that day and when we were quarreling about--when we were struggling over the question of whether or not he should go out i said a great deal to him. mr. rankin. what did you say to him then? mrs. oswald. i don't remember. mr. rankin. just tell us in substance? mrs. oswald. i really don't remember now. i only remember that i told him that i am sorry of all these pranks of his and especially after the one with general walker, and he had promised me, i told him that he had promised me---- mr. rankin. did he say anything in answer to that? mrs. oswald. i don't remember. mr. dulles. as i recall, in your previous testimony there was some indication that you had said that if he did the walker type of thing again you would notify the authorities. did that conversation come up at this time with your husband? mrs. oswald. yes; i said that. but he didn't go at that time and after all he was my husband. mr. dulles. does--do you mean you said it again at the time of the nixon incident? mrs. oswald. yes; i told him that but you must understand that i don't speak english very well, and for that reason i used to keep a piece of paper with me, and i had it, you know, what piece of paper i am talking about. at that time i didn't know how to go in police station: i don't know where it was. mr. mckenzie. was that the passport? mrs. oswald. no. after the incident with walker---- mr. rankin. was that paper the walker incident note that you have described in your testimony? mrs. oswald. yes. representative ford. when you put the pistol under the mattress, what happened to the pistol from then on? mrs. oswald. that evening he asked for it and said that nothing was going to happen, and that he said he wouldn't do anything and took the pistol back. and put it into his room. mr. dulles. did you keep the, what you call, the walker note with you all the time or did you have it in a particular place where you could go and get it and show it to him? mrs. oswald. i had it all the time. i kept it in a certain place initially and then i put it in the pages of a book. senator cooper. mr. rankin, would you ask the witness to state again what lee oswald's promise was to her that he had made at the time of the walker incident? mr. rankin. will you relate the promise that your husband made to you right after the discovery of the walker incident by you? mrs. oswald. this wasn't a written promise. mr. rankin. no. mrs. oswald. but in words it was more or less that i told him that he was very lucky that he hadn't killed--it very good that he hadn't killed general walker. i said it was fate that--it was fated that general walker not be killed and therefore he shouldn't try such a thing again. mr. rankin. what did he say in answer to that? mrs. oswald. he said perhaps i am right. i myself didn't believe what i was saying because i didn't believe that he was fated. i was just trying to find some way of dissuading my husband to do such a thing again. do you understand what i mean? mr. rankin. yes. did he say that he would or would not do that again, that is what i want to know. mrs. oswald. at the time i did definitely convince him that i was right, and at the time he said that he would not do such a thing again. mr. rankin. now, when you talked to him about the nixon incident and persuaded him not to go out and do anything to mr. nixon, did you say anything about your pregnancy in trying to persuade him? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. what did you say about that? mrs. oswald. yes; i told him that i was pregnant. mr. rankin. did you observe his action at the time of this nixon incident, how he acted? mrs. oswald. how he reacted to this? mr. rankin. how he reacted to your interfering with him. mrs. oswald. at first he was extremely angry, and he said, "you are always getting in my way." but then rather quickly he gave in, which was rather unusual for him. at the time i didn't give this any thought, but now i think it was just rather a kind of nasty joke he was playing with me. sometimes lee was--he had a sadistic--my husband had a sadistic streak in him and he got pleasure out of harming people, and out of harming me, not physically but emotionally and mentally. mr. rankin. have you told us substantially all that happened about this nixon incident? mrs. oswald. that is all i can remember. representative ford. can you tell us why you didn't mention this incident to the commission when you appeared before? mrs. oswald. there were an awful lot of questions at that time, and i was very tired and felt that i had told everything and i don't remember, i can't understand why i didn't mention this. it would have been better for me to mention it the first time than to make you all do more work on it. mr. dulles. at the time of this incident did you threaten to go to the authorities in case your husband did not desist in his intention? mrs. oswald. yes; i said that. senator cooper. i may have to go--could i ask a few questions? mrs. oswald, will you repeat what your husband said that morning when he dressed and got the pistol? mrs. oswald. i asked him where he was going and why he was getting dressed. he answered. "today nixon is coming and i want to go out and have a look at him." i answered, "i know how you look," and i had in mind the fact that he was taking a pistol with him. senator cooper. did he say anything about what he intended to do with the pistol? mrs. oswald. no. senator cooper. did you ask him if he intended to use the pistol against mr. nixon? mrs. oswald. i told him that, "you have already promised me not to play any more with that thing." not really play, but, you know--i didn't mean, of course, just playing but using the pistol. then he said, "i am going to go out and find out if there will be an appropriate opportunity and if there is i will use the pistol." i just remembered this and maybe i didn't say this in my first testimony and now it just has occurred to me that he said this. senator cooper. did your husband say why he wanted to use the pistol against mr. nixon? mrs. oswald. no. senator cooper. did he say where he intended to see mr. nixon? mrs. oswald. he didn't say. he just said in dallas, and since nixon was coming to dallas. senator cooper. when he was talking to you about seeing mr. nixon and using the pistol, what was his attitude? was he angry or---- mrs. oswald. he wasn't angry. he looked more preoccupied and had sort of a concentrated look. senator cooper. now, from the beginning, from the time that he first told you that he was going to use the pistol, until the time that you say he became quieted, did he again make any statement about using the pistol against mr. nixon? mrs. oswald. i told him that i didn't want him to use his gun any more. he said, "i will go out and have a look and perhaps i won't use my gun, but if there is a convenient opportunity perhaps i will." strike "perhaps" please from that last sentence. i didn't have a lot of time to think of what we were actually saying. all i was trying to do was to prevent him from going out. senator cooper. how much time elapsed, if you can remember, from the time he first told you that he was going out and when he finally became pacified? mrs. oswald. this was maybe minutes. the whole incident took maybe minutes. it was about minutes i took-- minutes maybe. minutes, it took maybe minutes for him to be prepared to go out and then the incident in the bathroom took maybe minutes until he quieted down. it doesn't mean i held him in the bathroom for minutes because i couldn't do that but the general discussion in the bathroom. senator cooper. you said he stayed at the house the remainder of the day. during the remainder of the day did you discuss again with him the incident? mrs. oswald. no; no. senator cooper. did he say anything more that day? mrs. oswald. no. he read a book. mr. dulles. do you know what book it was, by chance? mrs. oswald. i don't remember. it was some kind of book from the public library. he had a two-volume history of the united states. this is not from the library, this was his own book. mr. dulles. the incident occurred, you said just a few days after he had told you he shot at general walker? mrs. oswald. it was about or days after the incident with general walker, perhaps about days before we left for the departure for new orleans. this didn't happen right after the incident with general walker. it happened rather closer to a time when we departed for new orleans. mr. dulles. the general walker incident made a very strong impression on you, didn't it? mrs. oswald. of course. i never thought that lee had a gun in order to use it to shoot at somebody with. mr. dulles. didn't this statement that he made about vice president nixon make a strong impression on you also? mrs. oswald. i don't know. i was pregnant at the time. i had a lot of other things to worry about. i was getting pretty well tired of all of these escapades of his. mr. dulles. was there any reason why you didn't tell the commission about this when you testified before? mrs. oswald. i had no--there is no particular reason. i just forgot. very likely this incident didn't make a very great impression on me at that time. mr. dulles. now, before the death of president kennedy, of course, you knew that your husband had purchased a rifle? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. dulles. you knew that he had purchased a pistol? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. dulles. and a knife? mrs. oswald. no; what kind of knife? mr. dulles. did he have a knife? mrs. oswald. he had a little pocket knife; i think. mr. dulles. you knew that he had told you that he had tried to kill general walker? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. dulles. and, of course, as you said you heard him make a threat against nixon. mrs. oswald. yes. mr. dulles. did you have some fear that he would use these weapons against someone else? mrs. oswald. of course; i was afraid. mr. dulles. what? mrs. oswald. of course; i was afraid. mr. dulles. you thought that he might use his weapons against someone? mrs. oswald. after the incident with nixon i stopped believing him. mr. dulles. you what? mrs. oswald. i stopped believing him. mr. dulles. why? mrs. oswald. because he wasn't obeying me any longer, because he promised and then he broke his promise. mr. dulles. would you repeat that? mrs. oswald. because he wasn't obeying me any more. he promised and, he made a promise and then he broke it. mr. dulles. that is my question. having been told that--isn't it correct he told you that he shot at general walker? he made a promise to you that he wouldn't do anything like that again, you heard him threaten vice president nixon, didn't it occur to you then that there was danger that he would use these weapons against someone else in the future? mrs. oswald. after the incident with walker, i believed him when he told me that he wouldn't use the weapons any longer. mr. dulles. i remember you testified before and i asked you if you had heard him threaten any official or other person and your answer was no. mrs. oswald. because i forgot at that time about the incident with nixon. mr. dulles. i want to ask you again: in view of the fact that you knew--in view of the fact that he had threatened walker by shooting at him, and he threatened vice president nixon can you not tell this commission whether after that he threatened to hurt, harm any other person? mrs. oswald. nobody else. perhaps i should be punished for not having said anything about all this, but i was just a wife and i was trying to keep the family together, at that time. i mean to say. i am talking, of course, of the time before president kennedy's death. and if i forget to say anything now, i am not doing it on purpose. mr. dulles. i am just asking questions. will you say here that he never did make any statement against president kennedy? mrs. oswald. never. mr. dulles. did he ever make any statement about him of any kind? mrs. oswald. he used to read and translate articles from the newspaper about kennedy to me and from magazines, favorable articles about kennedy. he never commented on them and he never discussed them in any way but because of his translations and his reading to me he always had a favorable feeling about president kennedy because he always read these favorably inclined articles to me. he never said that these articles never were true that he was a bad president or anything like that. mr. dulles. i didn't catch the last. mrs. oswald. he never said these articles were not true or that president kennedy was a bad president or anything like that. senator cooper. i think you testified before that he made statements showing his dislike of our system of government and its economic system. mrs. oswald. he used to complain about the educational difficulties and about the unemployment in the united states and about the high cost of medical care. mr. mckenzie. right there, please, may i, mr. dulles when did he complain of those things, was this in russia or was it in the united states after you returned from russia? mrs. oswald. after our return from russia. when we were living in new orleans after returning from russia. mr. mckenzie. did he likewise make such complaints about the american system while you were living in russia after you were married? mrs. oswald. he used to tell me that it was difficult to find a job and to get work in the united states but nonetheless we would be better there than we were in russia. excuse me. he was the kind of person who was never able to get along anywhere he was and when he was in russia he used to say good things about the united states and when he was in the united states he used to talk well about russia. senator cooper. you knew, of course, because of the incidents in new orleans that he did not like american policy respecting cuba. mrs. oswald. he was definitely a supporter of cuba. this was something which remained with him from russia. senator cooper. did he ever say to you who was responsible or who had some responsibility for our policy toward cuba? mrs. oswald. no. senator cooper. had he ever mentioned president kennedy in connection with our cuban policy? mrs. oswald. never to me. mr. dulles. did he ever say anything---- mrs. oswald. he might have discussed this with paine. senator cooper. with who? mrs. oswald. mr. paine, husband of ruth paine. senator cooper. he might have done what now? mrs. oswald. with the husband of ruth paine. senator cooper. why do you say that, did you ever hear him talking about it? mrs. oswald. he used to talk politics with mr. paine. i don't know what they were talking about because at that time i didn't understand english. senator cooper. did you mean, though, to say that you believed he might have discussed the cuban policy with mr. paine. mrs. oswald. yes; especially after we returned from new orleans. senator cooper. why? why do you make that statement? mrs. oswald. because we only saw mr. paine once or twice before we went to new orleans. and there was more opportunity to see mr. paine after we came back. senator cooper. but my question is what makes you think he might have talked to mr. paine about cuba? mrs. oswald. i think, sir; because after returning from new orleans this was his favorite subject, cuba, and he was quite--a little bit cracked about it, crazy about cuba. senator cooper. you mean he talked to you a great deal about it after you came from new orleans? mrs. oswald. well, in new orleans he used to talk to me endlessly about cuba, but after we came back he didn't talk to me about it any longer because i was just sick and tired of this. mr. dulles. "he" in this case is your husband? mrs. oswald. that is right. i really don't know about what he talked with mr. paine. i think that they were talking about politics, that is to say my husband with mr. paine because my husband used to tell me afterwards, "well, he doesn't understand anything about politics." "he is not too strong on politics." and, therefore, i think they were probably talking with the american political system and the russian political system and comparisons between them. i think that mr. paine could probably tell you more about this than i can. senator cooper. that is all i want to ask for the time being. mrs. oswald. i think that mr. paine knows more about my husband's political attitudes toward the united states than i do. mr. rankin. you said the fbi asked you whether you could have been mistaken about it being mr. nixon that your husband was interested in going and seeing and maybe doing something to with his gun. do you know what mr. johnson you were asking about? let me rephrase the question. you said the fbi asked you whether you might have been mistaken about mr. nixon and whether it might have been mr. johnson instead of mr. nixon that your husband was interested in doing something to with his gun. do you know what mr. johnson was being referred to? mrs. oswald. no; i didn't know who johnson was. i am ashamed but i never knew his name. i am ashamed myself but i didn't know who johnson was. mr. rankin. you didn't know that the fbi was asking about the then vice president and now president johnson? mrs. oswald. no; i never heard of johnson before he became president. mr. dulles. and you are quite sure---- mrs. oswald. maybe i am stupid, i don't know. mr. dulles. and you are quite sure that your husband mentioned the name of nixon to you---- mrs. oswald. yes; i am sure it was nixon. mr. dulles. that morning? mr. rankin. do you know whether this nixon incident occurred the day before your husband went to new orleans? mrs. oswald. it wasn't the day before. perhaps days before. mr. mckenzie. mr. rankin, may i ask a question? mr. rankin. yes. mr. mckenzie. mrs. oswald, you say or you said a few minutes ago that mr. paine knew or knows more about your husband's attitude about the united states than you do. why did you say that? mrs. oswald. because my husband's favorite topic of discussion was politics, and whoever he was with he talked to them politics and mr. paine was with him a fair amount and i am not sure they talked about politics. they went to meetings of some kind together, i don't know what kind of meetings. mr. mckenzie. do you know where the meetings were? mrs. oswald. in dallas. after they came back from some meeting my husband said to me something about walker being at this meeting, and he said, "paine knows that i shot him." i don't know whether this was the truth or not. i don't know whether it was true or not but this is what he told me. mr. mckenzie. would they go in mr. paine's automobile? mrs. oswald. yes; it was about days after this incident with stevenson or the next day, or maybe it was the same place, or the next day that a meeting was held where general walker appeared. mr. mckenzie. it was the day before. mrs. oswald. the day before? the day after. i think there was day's difference between them, either it was the day before or the day after. mr. rankin. did you say that there were a number of political meetings---- mrs. oswald. excuse me; but i think this was on friday. i think that lee was at this meeting on a friday. mr. rankin. did you say there were a number of political meetings that your husband went to---- mrs. oswald. excuse me; this was october . mr. rankin. with mr. paine? mrs. oswald. a week after his birthday--this was friday. i think it was a week after my husband's birthday about october or something like that or the th. mr. rankin. mr. reporter, can you give her the question that i asked? mrs. oswald. excuse me, please. (the question was read by the reporter.) mrs. oswald. i only know about this one. mr. rankin. did the fbi tell you that the reason they were asking about whether there was a mistake as to whether it was mr. nixon or vice president johnson was because there was a report in dallas papers about vice president johnson going to dallas around the d of april? mrs. oswald. yes; they did tell me this. they said that at this time there was only one announcement in the newspapers of anyone coming and that was vice president johnson. mr. rankin. but you still are certain it was mr. nixon and not vice president johnson? mrs. oswald. yes, no. i am getting a little confused with so many questions. i was absolutely convinced it was nixon and now after all these questions i wonder if i am right in my mind. mr. rankin. did your husband---- mrs. oswald. i never heard about johnson. i never heard about johnson. i never knew anything about johnson. i just don't think it was johnson. i didn't know his name. mr. rankin. did you husband during the nixon incident say mr. nixon's name several times or how many times. mrs. oswald. only once. mr. rankin. now, you said that your husband went to get the pistol in the room. will you tell us what room that was that he went to get the pistol? mrs. oswald. it was a small sort of storeroom. just to the left off the balcony as you come in; it is just on the left from the balcony. mr. rankin. was it out, was the pistol out in the room or was it in a closet? mrs. oswald. this room contained only a table and some shelves, and the pistol was not on the table. it was hidden somewhere on a shelf. representative ford. was the rifle in that room, too? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. where was the rifle in the room? mrs. oswald. sometimes it was in the corner, sometimes it was up on a shelf. lee didn't like me to go into this room. that is why he kept it closed all the time and told me not to go into it. sometimes he went in there and sat by himself for long periods of time. mr. dulles. by closed, do you mean locked? mrs. oswald. he used to close it from the inside. i don't remember what kind of lock it was. possibly it was just a--some kind of a tongue---- mr. mckenzie. latch. mrs. oswald. latch or something like that. mr. dulles. how could he close it from the inside and then get out? mrs. oswald. when he was inside he could close it from the inside so that i couldn't come in. mr. dulles. but when he came out could he close it from the outside so that you could not get in? mrs. oswald. no; from the outside it couldn't be locked. representative ford. when you went to new orleans and packed for the trip to new orleans, did you help to pack the pistol or the rifle? mrs. oswald. no, no; lee never let me pack things when we went for trips. he always did it himself. representative ford. did you see him pack the pistol or the rifle? mrs. oswald. no. representative ford. did you know the pistol and the rifle were in the luggage going to new orleans? mrs. oswald. i stayed for some time with ruth paine after he left for new orleans and i don't know whether they were in his things or they were in the stuff which was left with me. representative ford. at the time mrs. paine picked you up to go to the bus station, did you intend to go by bus to new orleans at that time? mrs. oswald. no. representative ford. while you were living on neely street you didn't tell us before of any extensive rifle shooting at love field or rifle practice at love field. can you tell us more about it now? mrs. oswald. lee didn't tell me when he was going out to practice. i only remember one time distinctly that he went out because he took the bus. i don't know if he went to love field at that time. i don't--after all this testimony, after all this testimony, when i was asked did he clean his gun a lot, and i answered yes, i came to the conclusion that he was practicing with his gun because he was cleaning it afterwards. representative ford. did he take the rifle and the pistol to love field or at the time he went on the bus? mrs. oswald. only the rifle. mr. mckenzie. just a minute. let me ask her a question. may i ask a question? representative ford. yes, sir. mr. mckenzie. representative ford, i wasn't here as you know when mrs. oswald testified before. i have been with her when she was interrogated by the fbi relative to practicing the rifle shooting. this is the first time that i have heard the use of the words "love field." has there been prior testimony by mrs. oswald here that he was practicing at love field, because the reason i ask this is because she has steadfastly in the past told me and the fbi that she didn't know where he went to practice and that is the reason i wanted to know. mr. rankin. the record is---- mrs. oswald. i don't know where he practiced. i just think that the bus goes to, went to love field. mr. rankin. her testimony before was that the bus that he took, that she knows about when he went, was a bus that went to love field, and she thought he went to some place in that area to do his practicing. mr. mckenzie. the reason i ask the question, mr. rankin, is because i don't believe there is any practice area at love field for rifle practicing. mr. rankin. well, the investigation that the commission has made shows that there is a place near love field where people do shooting and practicing. mr. mckenzie. not at love field. mr. rankin. it is right adjacent, in the neighborhood. mrs. oswald. once we went out with kathy ford with the children to watch airplanes landing and these airplanes made a tremendous noise and for that reason i thought that maybe my husband was practicing somewhere in that area because you couldn't hear the sound of shots. i don't know if there is any place near there where one can practice shooting, though. this idea just came to me a little while ago when we were out there, watching the airplanes because it was a couple of weeks ago that this happened. just sort of a guess of mine. mr. dulles. how did he pack the gun or conceal the gun when he went out on the bus toward love field? mrs. oswald. are you talking about the gun or the rifle? mr. dulles. i am talking about the rifle. mrs. oswald. he used to wrap it up in his overcoat, raincoat. mr. rankin. so that the record will be clear on this, mr. mckenzie, the prior testimony did not purport to indicate that mrs. oswald thought he was practicing right on love field where the airplanes were landing or anything like that. it was that he took that bus and took the rifle and came back with the rifle and that the bus went to love field and the investigation has shown that there is at least one place in that immediate neighborhood where there is gun practice carried on. mr. dulles. is there testimony, mr. rankin, as to more than one trip or should we get that from the witness? mr. rankin. she testified right now she only knew of this one although she knew of his cleaning his guns a number of times. she just testified to that. do you want more than that? mr. dulles. i thought the record was a little fuzzy. maybe you should clarify it. mr. mckenzie. i think you should ask the question. mr. rankin. will you tell us, mrs. oswald, how you thought your husband might have been practicing in the area near love field or how you concluded that he might have been practicing with the rifle in the area near love field. mrs. oswald. only because that is the bus, only because that is where the bus goes. he never told me where. mr. rankin. and you don't know whether he was practicing at a place near love field or some place between where he got on the bus near your home and love field; is that right? mrs. oswald. no; i don't know, even now i don't know where it is. senator cooper. can i just ask a question? do you know how many times he took the rifle from your home? mrs. oswald. well---- mr. dulles. you are speaking of neely street. mrs. oswald. i only saw---- senator cooper. when you were living on neely street--strike that. you have told about his taking the rifle from the house on neely street and then later cleaning the rifle. do you know how many times that occurred? mrs. oswald. i saw him take the rifle only once when we were living on neely street but he cleaned the rifle perhaps three or four times, perhaps three times--three times. senator cooper. did he ever tell you that he was practicing with a rifle? mrs. oswald. only after i saw him take the gun that one time. senator cooper. did you ask him if he had been practicing with the rifle? mrs. oswald. yes, i asked him. senator cooper. what did he say? mrs. oswald. he said yes. senator cooper. did he ever give any reason why he was practicing with the rifle to you? mrs. oswald. he didn't give me a reason. he just said that for a man it is an interesting thing to have a rifle. i considered this some kind of a sport for him. i didn't think he was planning to employ it. i didn't take it seriously. (at this point, senator cooper left the hearing room.) mr. rankin. at the time of the nixon incident did you know who mr. nixon was? mrs. oswald. i didn't know what position he held. i thought he was vice president. mr. rankin. did you ever check to see whether mr. nixon was in fact in dallas anytime around that date? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. after the day of the nixon incident did you ever discuss that incident again with your husband? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. did the nixon incident have anything to do with your decision to go to new orleans to live? mrs. oswald. after the incident with walker it became clear to me that it would be a good idea to go away from dallas and after the incident with nixon insisted--i insisted on it. mr. rankin. after the nixon incident did you ever discuss that nixon incident again with your husband? mrs. oswald. no. i don't know why. perhaps it didn't make a very strong impression on me and that is why i didn't mention it in my first testimony. perhaps it is because the first incident with walker made such a strong impression that what happened afterward was somewhat effaced by it. i was so much upset by this incident with general walker that i only just wanted to get away from dallas as fast as possible. mr. rankin. did you discuss the nixon incident with anyone other than your husband before the assassination of president kennedy? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. did you ever consider telling the police about the walker and nixon incidents? mrs. oswald. i thought of this but then lee was the only person who was supporting me in the united states, you see. i didn't have any friends, i didn't speak any english and i couldn't work and i didn't know what would happen if they locked him up and i didn't know what would happen to us. of course, my reason told me that i should do it but because of circumstances i couldn't do it. mr. rankin. when did you first tell something about the nixon incident? mrs. oswald. it was after the assassination; we were in martin's house and i think robert was there also. that is when i first mentioned that. i don't remember whether i told them both at the same time or told martin first and robert second or robert first and martin second. mr. rankin. do you know about when that was with reference to the time you moved in with the martins? mrs. oswald. i think it was in the first month. i don't remember which day it was, though. mr. rankin. do you recall whether you first told robert about it some time in january of this year? mrs. oswald. i think it was earlier than that, early in december. perhaps in the beginning of january, but i think it was before new year's. mr. rankin. if robert has stated that it was on a sunday, january of this year, do you think he is in error then? mrs. oswald. i don't think that robert would make a mistake. i might make a mistake myself but i don't think he would make a mistake because he doesn't have quite as many, because he has not been in contact with quite as many of these events and doesn't have quite as much to remember as i have. and in general, i have a bad memory for figures. mr. rankin. did you discuss the nixon incident at anytime with mr. thorne or mr. martin, your agent? mrs. oswald. i told martin about it but i don't think i told thorne about it, and if thorne learned about it it must have been from martin. mr. rankin. you just related how you told mr. martin about it and the occasion in your testimony a moment ago; is that right? mrs. oswald. i am certain that these were the circumstances in which i told martin about this. whether or not the--it's possible i was just talking with martin and his wife about lee and it just came into my mind and i don't remember whether robert was there or not, or whether i told robert later. mr. rankin. did anyone at anytime advise you or tell you not to tell the commission about this incident? mrs. oswald. martin told me that it is not necessary to mention this. but when they were asking me here in the commission whether i had anything to add to my testimony, i really forgot about it. when martin and i were talking about it he said, "well, try not to think about these things too much." mr. rankin. did he say anything about why it wasn't necessary to tell about this incident? mrs. oswald. i don't remember. i don't think he told me why. maybe he told me and i just didn't understand because i didn't understand english very well. mr. rankin. when you were telling about the nixon incident you referred to your husband's sadistic streak. do you recall that? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. can you tell us a little more about that, how it showed? mrs. oswald. anytime i did something which didn't please him he would make me sit down at a table and write letters to the russian embassy stating that i wanted to go back to russia. he liked to tease me and torment me in this way. he knew that this--he just liked to torment me and upset me and hurt me, and he used to do this especially if i interfered in any of his political affairs, in any of his political discussions. he made me several times write such letters. mr. dulles. i have just one question: what did you or your husband do with these letters that you wrote? did any of them get mailed or did they all get destroyed? mrs. oswald. he kept carbons of these letters but he sent the letters off himself. mr. dulles. to the russian embassy? mrs. oswald. yes; he didn't give me any money to buy stamps. i never had any pocket money of my own. mr. rankin. but the letters to the embassy you are referring to are actual letters and requested--requests--they weren't practice letters or anything of that kind to punish you, were they? mrs. oswald. yes; they were real letters. i mean if my husband didn't want me to live with him any longer and wanted me to go back, i would go back, not because i wanted to go back but i didn't have any choice. mr. rankin. i misunderstood you then because i thought you were describing the fact that he made you write letters as a part of this sadistic streak that would never be sent but what he actually did was have you prepare the letters and then he proceeded to send them, is that your testimony? mrs. oswald. he did send them and he really wanted this. he knew that this hurt me. mr. rankin. those are the letters to the russian embassy we have introduced in evidence in connection with your testimony; is that right? mrs. oswald. yes; those are the letters. representative ford. did he ever show you replies to those letters? mrs. oswald. at first--yes; there were. at first i didn't believe that he was sending off those letters. representative ford. but you did see the replies? mrs. oswald. i received answers from the embassy. mr. rankin. now, i will turn to another subject, mrs. oswald. mr. dulles. would you like to have a -minute recess? we will proceed. mr. rankin. now, mrs. oswald, i would like to ask you about the irving gun shop in dallas. mrs. oswald. the what? i don't know anything about this at all. mr. rankin. your counsel tells me i should correct that, that irving is not a part of dallas. it is the city of irving. a witness has said that you and your two children and your husband came into a furniture shop asking the location of a gunshop in that area in irving, and after appearing there that you and your husband, with your husband driving the car, along with your two children, got in the car and went up the street in the direction of where the gunshop was. did you recall any incident of that kind? mrs. oswald. this is just a complete fabrication. lee never drove a car with me. only ruth paine drove a car with me. and i never took my baby with me. mr. rankin. did you ever go into such a furniture store in irving? mrs. oswald. never. mr. rankin. that you recall? mrs. oswald. i was only twice in a store in irving where they sell, like a cafe, where you can buy something to eat and where they sell toys and clothes and things like that; a little bit like a woolworths, a one-story shop but without any furniture in it. mr. rankin. do you know a mrs. whitworth who works in a furniture store in irving? mrs. oswald. i was never in irving in any furniture store. mr. rankin. do you know a mrs. whitworth? mrs. oswald. it is the first time i have ever heard that name. mr. rankin. do you know a mrs. hunter, a friend of mrs. whitworth? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. did you ever go on a trip with your husband to have a telescopic lens mounted on a gun at a gunshop? mrs. oswald. never. no; this is all not true. in the first place, my husband couldn't drive, and i was never alone with him in a car. anytime we went in a car it was with ruth paine, and there was never--we never went to any gun store and never had any telescopic lens mounted. mr. rankin. did the four of you, that is, your husband, you, and your two children, ever go alone any place in irving? mrs. oswald. in irving the baby was only month old. i never took her out anywhere. representative ford. did you ever go anytime---- mrs. oswald. just to doctor, you know. representative ford. did you ever go anytime with your husband in a car with the rifle? mrs. oswald. i was never at anytime in a car with my husband and with a rifle. not only with the rifle, not even with a pistol. even without anything i was never with my husband in a car under circumstances where he was driving a car. representative ford. did you go in a car with somebody else driving where your husband had the pistol or the rifle? mrs. oswald. never. i don't know what to think about this. mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, i will hand you commission's exhibit no. and ask you particularly about the signature at the bottom. mrs. oswald. that is lee's handwriting, and this is mine. mr. rankin. were the words "a. j. hidell, chapter president" on commission exhibit no. are in your handwriting? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. would you tell the commission how you happened to sign that? mrs. oswald. lee wrote this down on a piece of paper and told me to sign it on this card, and said that he would beat me if i didn't sign that name on the card. mr. rankin. did you have any other discussion about your signing that name? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. what discussion did you have? mrs. oswald. i said that this sounded like fidel. i said, "you have selected this name because it sounds like fidel" and he blushed and said, "shut up, it is none of your business." mr. rankin. was there any discussion about who hidell, as signed on the bottom of that card, was? mrs. oswald. he said that it was his own name and a there is no hidell in existence, and i asked him, "you just have two names," and he said, "yes." mr. rankin. was anything else said about that matter at any time? mrs. oswald. i taunted him about this and teased about this and said how shameful it is that a person who has his own perfectly good name should take another name and he said, "it is none of your business, i would have to do it this way, people will think i have a big organization" and so forth. mr. rankin. did you ask him why he needed to have the other name in your handwriting rather than his own? mrs. oswald. i did ask him that and he would answer that in order that people will think it is two people involved and not just one. mr. dulles. did you ever sign any more such cards with the name "hidell"? mrs. oswald. only this one. mr. dulles. and you never signed the name "hidell" on any other paper at any time? mrs. oswald. only once. representative ford. where did this actual signing take place, mrs. oswald? mrs. oswald. in new orleans. representative ford. where in new orleans? mrs. oswald. in what is the name of the street where we lived, in an apartment house. representative ford. in your apartment house? mrs. oswald. yes; in our apartment house. representative ford. what time of day, do you recall? mrs. oswald. it might have been or o'clock in the evening. mr. dulles. had you ever heard the name "hidell" before? mrs. oswald. i don't remember whether this was before or after lee spoke on the radio. i think it was after. mr. dulles. did he use the name hidell on the radio? mrs. oswald. i think that he might have when he was talking on the radio said that hidell is the president of his organization but, of course, i don't understand english well and i don't know. he spoke on the radio using his own name but might have mentioned the name hidell. this is what he told me. when i tried to find out what he said on the radio. mr. dulles. this might have been on television also? mrs. oswald. it was on the radio, not on television. he told me that someone had taken movies of him for to be shown later on television but i don't know if they ever were. mr. dulles. did you ever sign the name hidell at any subsequent time to any document? mr. mckenzie. if you recall signing it. do you recall signing his name to any other document? mrs. oswald. i only remember this one occasion. mr. rankin. was the way you signed on this commission's exhibit no. your usual way of writing english? mrs. oswald. my english handwriting changes every day, and my russian handwriting, too. but that is more or less my usual style. mr. rankin. you weren't trying to conceal the way you sign anything? mrs. oswald. i tried to do it, i just tried to write it as nicely as possible. mr. dulles. did you make some practice runs of writing this name before you actually put it on the card? mrs. oswald. yes; because it was difficult for me to write english properly. mr. dulles. so you mean you wrote it several times on another sheet of paper and then put it on this card? mrs. oswald. yes. representative ford. was there anybody else present at the time of this incident? mrs. oswald. no; only lee. representative ford. did he have you sign only one card? mrs. oswald. this was the only time when i--when lee asked me to do this and i did it. i might have signed two or--cards and not just one but there weren't a great many. representative ford. did the other cards have someone else's name besides lee harvey oswald on it? mrs. oswald. no; only lee oswald. representative ford. but you think you might have signed more than one such card? mrs. oswald. maybe two, three. this is just day when i was signing this. it just happened on one occasion. mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, turning to another subject, i would like to ask you about some correspondence with the dallas civil liberties union. do you recall that they inquired as to whether you were being kept from seeing and speaking to people against your will? mrs. oswald. this letter was translated by ruth paine and i answered on the basis of the translation. mr. mckenzie. may i see those letters, mr. rankin? mr. rankin. yes. mrs. oswald. i didn't want to answer this letter. it was simply a matter of courtesy on my part. mr. rankin. now, you received a letter from the local chapter of the civil liberties union in russian, did you not? mrs. oswald. there was a letter that was in english and there was a translation which came with it, and it was stated that the translation was done by ruth paine. mr. rankin. what did you do with the translation or the--i will ask you the translation first. did you keep that? mrs. oswald. i don't remember what i did with it. mr. rankin. do you know what you did with the part that was in russian? mrs. oswald. perhaps it is somewhere among my papers but i didn't pay any special attention to it. mr. rankin. i will hand you commission exhibit no. and ask you if that is the letter in english that you referred to? mrs. oswald. yes; it is the letter. mr. rankin. i call the commission's attention to the fact that that has already been received in evidence. mr. mckenzie. mr. rankin, did you write mr. olds about this? this appears to be a letter in reply to a letter from you. mr. rankin. that is right. i asked for it. mrs. oswald, will you examine commission exhibits nos. and and state whether you know the handwriting in these exhibits? mrs. oswald. this is all mine, my handwriting. this is the answer to that letter. mr. rankin. and the letter, exhibit no. , and the envelope, exhibit no. , in your handwriting were your response to the inquiry of the dallas civil liberties union on the exhibit no. ? mrs. oswald. yes; this was my answer to this letter, exhibit no. . mr. rankin. i offer in evidence commission exhibits nos. and . mr. dulles. you want them admitted at this time? mr. rankin. yes; mr. chairman. mr. dulles. they shall be admitted. (commission exhibits nos. and were marked for identification and received in evidence.) mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, i will ask you to examine exhibit no. and with the help of the interpreter, advise us whether or not it is a reasonably correct translation of your letter, exhibit no. . mrs. oswald. this is not an accurate translation. mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, can you tell us what errors were made, where the corrections should be to make it a correct translation? mrs. oswald. there is one place here in which it refers to the third sentence of the english text which states: "what you read in the papers is correct." mr. rankin. how would you correct that? mrs. oswald. this is incorrect. a better, a proper translation, although unofficial of this passage, and the russian text of my letter would read, "your concern is quite unnecessary although it is quite understandable if one is to judge from what is written in the papers." mr. rankin. now, will you proceed with any other corrections? mrs. oswald. this, the letter, the spirit of the letter reflects my own spirit in my own russian text--although the translation is somewhat inaccurate and tends to shorten my own text somewhat. there is another inaccuracy which is more important than the others--it is not more important, the first one is more important--there is another which should be called to the commission's attention. the last sentence of the english text reads: "please let mrs. ruth paine know i owe to her much and think of her as one of my best friends." whereas the letter only states that: "of course, consider her my friend." mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, i call your attention to commission exhibit no. and ask you to note the date which appears to be december , . the dallas civil liberties union letter, you will note, was dated january , which i will hand you so you can examine it. could you explain that discrepancy? you might wish to examine them. mrs. oswald. it can't possibly be the th of december because it hasn't even come yet. mr. rankin. you might wish to examine the envelope, exhibit no. , that may help you as to the correct date. mrs. oswald. january . i wrote this january . it was just my mistake. i wrote it on january and mailed it on the th. i just out of habit still writing december. mr. mckenzie. mr. rankin, may i ask the commission, on commission exhibit no. , which purports to be a translation of mrs. oswald's letter to the dallas civil liberties union, do you know who translated this letter or could you tell us who translated the letter? mr. rankin. mr. mckenzie---- mrs. oswald. they wrote me that i can answer them in russian, and which i did but i haven't any idea who translated my answer. mr. rankin. the commission exhibit no. which i will now offer states that the translation was handled by mrs. ford and later seen by mrs. paine. the translation of the exhibit that you now have in your hand, what is the number of that? mr. mckenzie. this is commission exhibit no. in english which purports to be a translation of mrs. oswald's letter to the dallas civil liberties union and i am asking does the commission know who translated the letter? mr. rankin. we were informed by the dallas civil liberties union in exhibit no. that the translation was made by mrs. ford and later seen by mrs. paine, and i now offer all exhibits together with exhibit no. as part of the testimony of this witness. mr. dulles. the exhibits shall be admitted. have we the numbers of all of these exhibits? mr. rankin. yes; the reporter has them. (commission exhibit no. was marked for identification and received in evidence.) mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, i will hand you the cameras of your---- mr. dulles. i wonder before we finish this---- mr. mckenzie. i would prefer, mr. rankin, for the purposes of the record so that the record will be complete, to have a correct english translation of mrs. oswald's letter in the record in lieu of commission exhibit no. . mr. rankin. mr. chairman, if it is agreeable to the commission, i would like to ask counsel to furnish such a translation and we will then make it the next number, exhibit no. , as a part of this record. mr. dulles. that shall be admitted then as exhibit no. , the other already being in the record i think, probably has to stay there particularly in view of all this discussion of it. mr. rankin. if you will furnish it. mr. mckenzie. you are putting the onus or burden back on me, mr. rankin, when the commission has a fully qualified, i presume, russian interpreter here, and if the commission would not mind going to the further expense of having the interpretation of the letter made, i think it would expedite the commission's report. mr. rankin. if it is satisfactory to mr. mckenzie, then, mr. chairman, i would like to ask mr. coulter if he would make a translation and submit it to mr. mckenzie for submission to his client for approval, and then we will have that marked the exhibit no. and made part of this record. mr. dulles. excellent, that will be admitted as such, commission exhibit no. . mr. mckenzie. thank you, mr. rankin and thank you mr. chairman. (commission exhibit no. was marked for identification and received in evidence.) mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, will you examine the cameras of your husband and tell us which one took the pictures that showed your husband with the rifle and the pistol, as you will recall? the pictures i am asking you about are exhibits nos. -a and -b which you recall are the ones that you said in your prior testimony you took yourself. mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. with one of these cameras. mrs. oswald. this is the first and last time in my life i ever took a photograph and it was done with this gray camera. mr. redlich. mr. rankin, the commission exhibit numbers of the two cameras, one is commission exhibit no. and one is commission exhibit no. . mr. mckenzie. and the gray camera she is referring to, mr. rankin, for the purpose of the record is commission exhibit no. , isn't that right, mrs. oswald? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. that is the gray camera you just said you took pictures with, is that correct? mrs. oswald. yes. the other camera also belonged to lee but i don't use it. mr. rankin. turning to another subject now, mrs. oswald, while you and lee harvey oswald were at minsk in the soviet union, can you tell us how lee harvey oswald spent his leisure time while he was there? mrs. oswald. i don't know how he spent his time before we were married but afterwards he was a great lover of classical music and used to go to concerts a lot, and theaters, and movies, symphony concerts, and we used to go out on the lakes around minsk. there are some lakes in the confines of minsk and outside where we used to go. mr. rankin. while there did he read much? mrs. oswald. he didn't read very much because there wasn't a very great choice of books in english except the ones on marxism. mr. dulles. he could, however, read books in russian, could he not, at this time? mrs. oswald. yes; but it was a lot of work for him and he really didn't enjoy it very much. but he did go to russian films and understood them. mr. rankin. did he go to the rifle club there? mrs. oswald. he belonged to a hunters--a club of hunters and had a rifle but he never went to the practice meetings of this club. he only paid his membership dues, and i think that he joined this club in order to be able to acquire a rifle because only apparently members of such hunting clubs have the right in the soviet union to own a rifle. only once did he go out with a group of some of my friends and take his rifle and try and shoot some game but he didn't catch anything. representative ford. did he buy the rifle or was it given to him? mrs. oswald. he bought it. representative ford. what did you do with it when you went to the united states? mrs. oswald. i think he sold it. representative ford. was it a rifle of--much like the one that was used in the assassination? mrs. oswald. all rifles look alike to me. mr. mckenzie. did it have a telescopic sight on it, marina? mrs. oswald. no. mr. mckenzie. but it was similar to the same rifle that he had in the united states? mrs. oswald. no. it wasn't identical but it might have been similar, seeing as how they are both single barrel rifles. i don't understand anything about rifles at all and i really am not qualified to talk about them. mr. rankin. you mentioned that he went to the rifle club on one occasion or the hunting club on one occasion with some friends to hunt squirrels or rabbits or things of that sort. did he go to the hunting club on other occasions to practice to shoot? mrs. oswald. when i first saw the rifle here in the united states i didn't pay much attention to it because i thought this was the rifle he had brought from russia. mr. rankin. did he practice shooting the rifle in russia? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. did you see him or observe him cleaning the rifle in russia? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. and would he clean the rifle, did he clean it on several occasions? mrs. oswald. yes, several times. mr. rankin. the hunting club that he belonged to, did it have an instructor in shooting the rifle? mrs. oswald. i don't know but there should have been one. mr. rankin. now, he had to have a permit to purchase the rifle in russia. mrs. oswald. yes; you can't possess a rifle without a--permission in the soviet union. mr. rankin. did he purchase the rifle from a government agency? mrs. oswald. you buy these rifles in special stores, but to buy them you have to have a paper from the hunting club stating that you have the right to buy a rifle. mr. rankin. and the authorized government official gave him authority to buy the gun through the hunting club? mrs. oswald. the hunting club issues this permit. he used to clean the rifle but he never used it. it always hung on the wall. mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, will you describe what you were saying off the record in regard to his going out to use the rifle in the country as distinguished from using it in the club? mrs. oswald. we all went out together in a group of boys and girls in order to get--to swim a little and to get a suntan. it was a lake which is just on the edge of town not far from minsk, and the men had guns, and they all went out to try to shoot some kind of rabbit or bird or something like that, and the men went off together and i heard several shots and they came back and they hadn't caught anything so we laughed at it. mr. rankin. did that happen more than once? mrs. oswald. only one such trip. and even that time he didn't want to take the gun with him. he took it only because one of my friends was laughing at him and said, "you have a gun hanging here and you never use it. why don't you bring it along and see if you can use it." mr. rankin. did you and your husband have any friends other than russians while you were at minsk? mrs. oswald. there were friends. we had some friends from argentina but they didn't come on this excursion with us. mr. rankin. did you have any friends there who were from cuba? mrs. oswald. there were cuban students studying in minsk, and this argentinian girl had a cuban boyfriend and possibly lee met this boyfriend, this cuban student, but i never met him. mr. dulles. do you know where the cuban students were studying, what particular school? mrs. oswald. they study in various educational institutions in minsk, some are in the medical institute, others are in the agricultural and others are in the polytechnical institute. mr. dulles. could you tell us a little more about these argentinians, were they there for educational reasons or what was the reason they were there? mrs. oswald. excuse me; i am mixed up with cubans. you talk about argentinians? mr. dulles. i asked about argentinians but i would be glad to have you add the cubans to it, too. mrs. oswald. there is agreement between the cuban government and the russian government; and the cuban government under this agreement sends cuban students to study in the soviet union. from what i could tell from what lee said, many of these cuban students were not satisfied with life in the soviet union, and this argentinian girl told me the same thing. many of them thought that, they were not satisfied with conditions in the soviet union and thought if castro were to be in power that the conditions in cuba would become similar to those in the soviet union and they were not satisfied with this. they said it wasn't worth while carrying out a revolution just to have the kind of life that these people in the soviet union had. representative ford. would you have any idea how many cubans were in school in minsk? mrs. oswald. i heard the figure of but i never knew even a single one. representative ford. could you be more helpful in the kind of schools they went to, what were the schools? mrs. oswald. most of them were in agricultural institutes. some were in the institute of foreign languages where they spent a year studying russian in order subsequently to go on into some other institute where they could study some more formal subject or some more formal discipline. representative ford. about how old were these students? mrs. oswald. about between and . mr. dulles. was your husband absent from you during any protracted period after your marriage, and during your stay in minsk other than the trip i think he took one trip to moscow without you. mrs. oswald. once i went to kharkov, and he stayed in minsk. other than that there were no absences on his part, except, of course, for the trip to moscow. do you want to talk about the argentinian students? mr. dulles. yes; if you have more to say about that. mrs. oswald. these are people who left poland about years previously for argentina. then after the second world war the part of poland where they had been living became part of the soviet union and the father of this family was an engineer and worked in the same factory where lee worked, his name was zieger. they had two daughters born in argentina, and the wife was very homesick for her native country, so they came back and the soviet government gave them soviet citizenship before they got on the boat to come back. then she told us what she had been reading in the newspapers was just propaganda and they thought the life was a little better than what they found out what it was when they arrived. now, they have been there or years and they would prefer to go back to argentina but they can't. mr. dulles. in connection with your husband's work in the factory did he have any indoctrination courses as a part of that in marxism, leninism, or in anything of that kind in connection with his work in the factory? mrs. oswald. i think there are such courses in the factory for party members and for people who want to become party members but lee never went to them. when he was in russia he didn't like russian communists. he thought they were all bureaucrats. i don't actually know what he liked except himself. mr. dulles. do you know whether your husband received any special pay or special funds through the russian red cross or through any other channel in addition to his regular pay in the factory? mrs. oswald. before we were married he apparently--he told me he was getting some assistance from the government, but he told me this after we were married, and i don't know from whom or in what way he got it. representative ford. did you have any idea how much extra he was getting over his wages? mrs. oswald. i don't know how much it was but he had quite a lot of money in the beginning. maybe he wrote about this in his diary. representative ford. did you know how much he was earning each week while he was employed? mrs. oswald. in russia they don't pay for every week. eighty rubles a month. representative ford. eighty rubles a month? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. dulles. those are the new rubles? mrs. oswald. new rubles. mr. dulles. those were the new rubles, revalued rubles, that is about $ ; is it not? mrs. oswald. $ or $ . representative ford. while you were married did you know of any extra money he was getting? mrs. oswald. he didn't receive any--he didn't receive any extra money while we were married, he had a little bit left over from what he was getting before, that is all. representative ford. did he handle all of the money that he received or did he give you some while you were in the soviet union? mrs. oswald. i was working at the same time, and i gave him my salary and he in turn would give me some money every now and then to buy groceries with and that sort of thing, but i didn't ever get any money from his salary. representative ford. so the only income that you know about was the money you earned and the money that he earned? mrs. oswald. yes. representative ford. and how much did you earn? mrs. oswald. . representative ford. rubles a month? mrs. oswald. a month. representative ford. there were no other funds, to your knowledge, that he received after you were married? mrs. oswald. no. representative ford. he paid all the bills? mrs. oswald. yes. you didn't have too much bills in russia. mr. dulles. did he take your money, too? what was your rent, do you recall at that time, rent of the apartment? mrs. oswald. seven rubles and cents, kopeks. mr. dulles. was it rubles and kopeks? a week? mrs. oswald. a month; the rent in russia are usually about percent of wages a month. mr. mckenzie. wages are low, too. mrs. oswald. of course, people who get more, higher wages have bigger apartments. mr. dulles. mr. rankin, i think, is it all right to adjourn at this point? we will reconvene at o'clock. (whereupon, at : p.m., the president's commission recessed.) afternoon session testimony of harris coulter the president's commission reconvened at p.m. (members present at this point: chief justice warren and representative ford.) the chairman. the commission will come to order. you may proceed, mr. rankin. mr. rankin. mr. chief justice. mr. mckenzie has asked that we develop in the record a little bit about the qualifications of mr. coulter as an interpreter, so it would be clear that he is able to translate back and forth. the chairman. very well. mr. rankin. mr. coulter, i think you should be sworn for this. the chairman. would you rise and be sworn, please? do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. coulter. i do. mr. rankin. will you please state your full name? mr. coulter. harris livermore coulter. mr. rankin. where do you live? mr. coulter. glen echo heights, md. mr. rankin. do you have a position in the government at the present time? mr. coulter. yes; i am an interpreter with the state department. mr. rankin. how long have you been in that capacity? mr. coulter. about months. mr. rankin. do you have any special field of foreign languages that you are working in? mr. coulter. russian is my best foreign language. i also work in french and in yugoslavian. mr. rankin. what training have you had for interpreting or translating russian? mr. coulter. russian language and area studies was my major subject at yale university when i was an undergraduate. i also took years of graduate work at columbia university in soviet area studies. in addition to that, i studied at the university of moscow for months. and i have been studying russian since . mr. rankin. can you tell us what period of time you studied at the university of moscow? mr. coulter. i was there from december --excuse me--from september until january . mr. rankin. have you been acting as an official interpreter in government work? mr. coulter. yes; for the last months i have been. mr. rankin. and will you describe the nature of that activity? mr. coulter. i have been escorting delegations from yugoslavia both around the united states and in washington. i have been working with french delegations here in the state department. i would have been working with russians if there had been any. there just haven't been any yet. in july i will be going to geneva to be an interpreter at the disarmament negotiations between the united states and the soviet union. i worked years as simultaneous interpreter at the united nations, in russian and french. mr. rankin. and have all these various activities since you have been employed by the government been as a part of your government work? mr. coulter. yes. mr. rankin. do you have facility in the reading of the russian language? mr. coulter. yes; i read it fluently. mr. rankin. have you had any difficulty understanding mrs. oswald? mr. coulter. not in the slightest; no. mr. rankin. i will ask you to ask her if she has had any difficulty understanding you. mrs. oswald. in the russian language? mr. rankin. yes. mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. mr. mckenzie, do you have anything else? mr. mckenzie. i would like to ask a couple of questions. mr. coulter, prior to your service with the state department which commenced some months ago, where were you employed? mr. coulter. i was unemployed from june until march . i was in the process of being cleared for a government job at the time. i terminated my employment with the united nations in june . mr. mckenzie. and you have been cleared for government security purposes? mr. coulter. that is right. the clearance began about august. i had some part-time jobs, freelance work, between the dates, but nothing permanent. mr. mckenzie. but for a number of years you were an interpreter at the united nations? mr. coulter. about years. mr. mckenzie. and then you started getting a security clearance, and for the past months you have been employed by the state department as an interpreter? mr. coulter. yes. mr. mckenzie. you were the interpreter present this morning when mrs. oswald commenced her testimony on this occasion? mr. coulter. i was. mr. mckenzie. and all the above and foregoing testimony previously testified to from the beginning of this session this morning up through now, you have interpreted; have you not? mr. coulter. i have. mrs. oswald. i appreciate mr. coulter helping me. mr. mckenzie. mr. rankin, the purpose and reason behind my asking you to show his qualifications, the interpreter's qualifications, is that the record will reflect that mrs. oswald was asked questions in english, and they were interpreted into russian, and she has answered in russian--and so that the record will show she was not answering in english. testimony of mrs. lee harvey oswald resumed mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, i would like to turn now to the pictures of your husband that i asked you about earlier, when you identified the gray camera as the one that was used in taking the pictures. and i called your attention to commission exhibits nos. -a and -b. i now wish to ask you specifically whether you used that camera that you saw identified for the taking of both of these pictures. and in so doing, i wish to call your attention to the fact that there were two different positions in the exhibits. mrs. oswald. i took both these pictures at the same time, and with the same camera. mr. rankin. and in giving that answer, you have examined the pictures, and you know they are different positions--that is, your husband has the rifle in different positions and the newspaper in different positions in the two pictures--do you? mrs. oswald. i am aware of that. mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, did you ever have a discussion with your husband about when he decided that he would like to become a citizen of the soviet union? mrs. oswald. we discussed this and he said that the soviet government wanted him to become a soviet citizen and furnished him the necessary papers, but he apparently refused. but the way it appears in his diary, of course, is quite different--in fact, the exact opposite. mr. rankin. by the exact opposite, you mean that it shows in his diary that he was the one that wanted to be a soviet citizen, and the soviet union refused to allow that; is that right? mrs. oswald. that is correct. representative ford. when did this conversation on this subject take place, mrs. oswald? mrs. oswald. about months after we were married. representative ford. while you were living in minsk? mrs. oswald. yes. representative ford. do you remember how the discussion came up? mrs. oswald. when lee wrote the american embassy requesting return to the united states and requesting an american passport, he told me that it was very lucky that he hadn't become a soviet citizen, and that his passport was still in the american embassy. and that if he had become a soviet citizen, it would have been difficult if not impossible to leave. before i found out about his diary, i didn't realize that the soviet government had refused to grant him citizenship, because he never talked about this, never mentioned it. mr. rankin. mr. chief justice, that is the end of the questioning that i planned to examine mrs. oswald about. i understand that congressman ford has some. i would like before closing to make an offer of what has been marked now as commission exhibit no. , which is the story that mrs. oswald developed in russian that was furnished to us, and i want to inform the commission that it was furnished to us for the purpose of trying to examine mrs. oswald the first time, and that counsel at that time and present counsel wanted to make it very clear that they didn't want to lose any property interest in that document. and all rights that they might have to publish it and use it commercially and any other way that she might have, and that it was merely furnished to the commission for official purposes and very strictly limited in that manner. but i would like to offer it and the commission may want to reserve its decision as to whether it should be made a part of the record and published. but i think it should at this time be offered for your consideration in that manner. the chairman. yes. does counsel wish to add anything to that? mr. mckenzie. yes, mr. chairman; i would, if i may, sir. the chairman. yes. mr. mckenzie. i appreciate mr. rankin's remarks in connection with the offering of mrs. oswald's memoirs, or manuscript of her memoirs, which, i understand, is commission exhibit no. . the manuscript prepared by mrs. oswald was heretofore voluntarily presented for the sole and exclusive purpose of assisting the commission in its official duties for the commission's use and benefit and to help the commission in evaluating mrs. oswald's testimony as well as the testimony of others in arriving at a report setting forth its findings and conclusions to the president and the american people. mrs. oswald and her two minor children have property rights that are private to her and to them in the publishing and use of the memoirs set forth in her manuscript, which was written solely for her use in writing a book for commercial purposes. she does object to the inclusion of the manuscript in the record, or the publishing of same, and she does not waive or relinquish or in anyway legally or otherwise give away her proprietary rights in this regard, to the manuscript. she respectfully requests that the commission honor her request in what has heretofore been deemed and what she now deems to be her assistance to the commission--and i will say this--that she has told me repeatedly that she has sought to assist the commission in every possible and conceivable way. but in light of that, she does respect the commission's indulgence in not publishing this manuscript, and asks that this only be used as it was presented for the purpose of assisting the commission in its official duties, in evaluating the evidence. the chairman. do you have any suggestions as to how we might use it and at the same time not permanently deprive the public of an opportunity to see it? before you answer that, i want to say this. i am sure no member of the commission wants to--has any desire to in anyway interfere with the property rights of mrs. oswald. she did cooperate with us in bringing this. we feel grateful that she did do it. on the other hand, we do want eventually to have this in the record so the public will know that they are getting everything that the commission has. i am just wondering if perhaps while you are contemplating writing something on the subject, and protecting her property rights, if we could seal this with a notation that it was not to be opened for public view until that has been done. and you could let us know when that day has passed. would that protect her rights? mr. mckenzie. well, mr. chief justice, i would be the last one in the world to suggest anything either to yourself or to the commission insofar as the way this matter should be handled. i do have, or feel, that the manuscript was given to the commission, the commission has had more than adequate opportunity to interrogate mrs. oswald. she is willing to stay here now as long as the commission desires, and will do so voluntarily without the issuance of a subpena or any other way. i think through the interrogation that mr. rankin has conducted--i might remark, most ably--that certainly the matters covered in the manuscript have already been covered in direct sworn testimony. and with that thought in mind, it was my feeling, and it is my feeling that the commission and its staff, through the help and assistance of the manuscript and mrs. oswald, have had the benefit of all the matters previously written down by mrs. oswald, and that if there are any questions that have not been covered that are covered in the manuscript, i am sure that counsel for the commission could adequately cover those questions. the manuscript was prepared by mrs. oswald in the form of memoirs. and was not prepared for the use of the commission. and i think without the commission's knowledge--it was prepared beforehand. and she brought it so the commission could have the effect of it and the use of it. now, if the commission feels that it should be finally published as part of the commission's report, i would certainly hope that the commission would honor her request and withhold the publishing of the manuscript until such time as she has had the opportunity to conclude any negotiations which she might have or might possibly have for the publishing of a book. i ask this not so much for mrs. oswald herself, but more for her two minor children. the chairman. well, we will do at least that. we will take the matter under consideration and having in mind her rights and our desire not to interfere with them we will try to work out a solution that will be satisfactory to you and to her. mr. mckenzie. i thank you very much, mr. chief justice. and i might also add that the chief justice and all members of this commission and its staff know full well, or at least i feel would know full well that just as soon as this report is published and distributed to the public, or distributed to the press, regardless of what property rights she may have now or may have then, it will be extremely difficult for mrs. oswald to protect those rights--if not impossible. the chairman. i would like to say, also, for the record that there is nothing sensational or nothing of a secretive nature in the document. it is something that, as you say, was written for publication, and we assume that it will be some day published, probably, and that if it is not given to the public, it will not be because there is anything of a secret nature in there. it would only be a question of whether it could be done consistent with the rights of the witness. and we will bear those in mind, you may be sure. mr. mckenzie. i thank you, mr. chief justice. and if i may add one other thing. i have heretofore made a request on mr. rankin in connection with a diary which was presented by robert oswald at the time of his testimony to the commission, that robert oswald had prepared shortly after november , and which not only has he furnished the diary to the commission, but has also narrated that diary by reading same on dictaphone tapes, and i have, in turn, furnished it to mr. jenner, a member of the commission's staff. i have requested the commission not to print robert oswald's diary for the same reasons that i have heretofore outlined in connection with mrs. oswald's manuscript. and i would hope that the commission could consider robert oswald's diary in the same light that you would consider this manuscript. i am not saying that either have any commercial value, but if they do i would hope that they would inure to the benefit of mrs. oswald's family and the benefit of robert oswald's family. the chairman. yes. we will consider that, also. but there are some portions of the diary of mr. oswald that are in the record already as a result of his examination, as there are things involved in this document of mrs. oswald's that are in the record by question and answer. mr. mckenzie. there is one other thing, and then i will close on this particular subject. mrs. oswald does not have a copy of the manuscript of her memoirs. her former attorney, mr. thorne, or her former so-called business manager, mr. james martin, reportedly to me has such a copy. but at the present time she does not have a copy of this manuscript nor do i have a copy of the manuscript. the chairman. you may have one immediately. mr. mckenzie. fine, sir--i would like to say at the commission's expense. the chairman. yes; of course, we will see you have one. mr. mckenzie. at the time that robert oswald gave his testimony to the commission, mr. jenner and mr. liebler followed the practice of taking originals and photostating them or xerox copying them and giving the originals back. before we do close today, i would like to make a request on the record to have all the articles that marina has brought up here in the way of letters and things of that sort returned to her, with, of course, adequate copies for the commission and its use. and i don't know whether you have any or not. mr. rankin. you have made your request. the chairman. we will consider that along with the other things. mr. rankin, will you continue now? mr. rankin. mr. coulter, could you state for the record whether you have related this colloquy to mrs. oswald, so that she is informed of it? mr. coulter. i gave it to her in general terms, that they were discussing the question of the rights to her manuscript and the rights to the originals of the various objects in her possession, which she had made available to the commission. mr. rankin. thank you. (at this point, mr. dulles entered the hearing room.) mr. rankin. mr. chief justice, i have one other offer to make, and i would like to offer it under exhibit no. , and that would be a translation of this document, that would present the same problems. we have a translation that was made by mr. gopadze, the secret service agent, who is quite familiar with the russian language. but we earlier today had a letter that mrs. oswald wrote to the civil liberties union of dallas, and she questioned some of the translation from russian into english, which was not done by any of our people, of course. and we are not so sure about mr. gopadze's translation. so we would like to follow what was suggested at that time, that mr. coulter make a translation of this, which we would submit to counsel for mrs. oswald, and mrs. oswald, for them to be satisfied it is a correct translation, and then make that translation a part of the record, subject to your deciding later whether it should be. the chairman. well, instead of referring it to mr. coulter, we will refer it to mrs. oswald's attorney, and he can have prepared any translation that he wishes, and then we will have it for comparison with the other. mr. rankin. mr. chief justice, i thought we would save them the expense. the chairman. i would rather deal directly with the counsel, and then we are not in any cross purposes. he can have it done any way he wants. mr. mckenzie. mr. chief justice, with your kind indulgence, sir, and the commission's kind indulgence, mr. coulter's translation of this document would be more than satisfactory with mrs. oswald and with myself. and, quite frankly, the funds which she has available to her for such a purpose are so extremely limited that it would be an extreme hardship on her to employ an interpreter to translate it. the chairman. that is perfectly all right, that mr. coulter should do it. i have no objection at all to mr. coulter. only when we are dealing with a client of a lawyer, we like to deal directly with him, and he can deal with the translator if he wishes. mr. mckenzie. i think we are both trying to serve the same purpose. but mr. rankin and i, i think, are in full agreement on mr. coulter's interpretation of this manuscript--if that is satisfactory with the commission. the chairman. yes; if it is satisfactory with you, it is satisfactory with me. there is no question about that. mrs. oswald. maybe in this manuscript many details are lacking which have been developed in my testimony, because i wrote it mainly for public consumption. mr. rankin. we understand, mrs. oswald. i am sure the commissioners all understand that the manuscript is something that was referred to in order to inquire from you during your giving of testimony, and that your testimony, together with the manuscript, should be considered if there is any question, because you do not purport to cover everything in the manuscript. is that what you are saying? mrs. oswald. i am very ashamed that there is so much unnecessary information in this manuscript and that it caused the interpreter so much difficulty in translating it. mr. rankin. mr. chief justice, i then offer under exhibit no. , and i make, without repeating them, the same suggestions i did about the russian document, exhibit no. , and ask that we follow the procedure of getting the translation, and then make it a part of this record, subject to the commission's determining that it should be. the chairman. it may be done in that manner. mr. rankin. that is all. the chairman. congressman ford, do you have some matters? mrs. oswald. i would like to know if the commission wants me to make some comment on any differences in substance between the manuscript and the testimony which i have given, or between the manuscript or the translation, whichever translation may be accepted, or both. the chairman. the commission will ask the questions, if there is anything of that nature. now, congressman ford, do you have some questions? representative ford. yes, mr. chief justice, i have a few questions. in the soviet union, when a marriage application is applied for, what are the steps that you take? mrs. oswald. there are certain applications which have to be filled out by the boy and girl. representative ford. do you have to go down together to make the application? mrs. oswald. it is necessary for both to appear with their passports and fill out this application. representative ford. in other words, lee harvey oswald had to take his passport down to--at the time that he applied for a marriage application? mrs. oswald. lee oswald did not have his passport at the time since it was in the american embassy. he went with his residence permission to the office. but our marriage was entered into his american passport after we were married and before we left the soviet union for the united states. representative ford. so it is not the passport in the sense that we think of a passport, that we get to travel to a foreign country? mrs. oswald. since most marriages are concluded between soviet citizens, they only present their internal passports to the marriage license bureau. but if there is a marriage between a soviet citizen and a foreigner, he presents his residence permission and his foreign passport, also, if he has one. if he doesn't have it, the residence permission is enough. representative ford. do we have the document that he presented at the time he applied for marriage? mrs. oswald. i don't know. i think he had to turn that in before he left the soviet union. mr. mckenzie. are you referring to his american passport? representative ford. no; i am referring to the document that he presented at the time he applied for marriage. mr. mckenzie. which would be a russian instrument? representative ford. right. mrs. oswald. i don't know if it is available. i think he had to turn it in before he left the soviet union. representative ford. in other words, both you and lee harvey oswald signed the necessary documents for marriage? mrs. oswald. yes. representative ford. during your period in minsk, following your marriage, did you and lee harvey oswald have any marital difficulties, any problems between the two of you? mrs. oswald. we had some difficulties in connection with the fact that i told my uncle and aunt that we were going to leave for the united states. lee did not want me to tell anybody that we were preparing to leave for the united states. representative ford. that was the only difficulty you had? mrs. oswald. yes. representative ford. was your vacation trip to kharkov--was that a vacation, or did that result from any marital difficulty? mrs. oswald. my aunt invited me to kharkov, and that is why i went. it was not the result of any marital difficulties. representative ford. you testified a few minutes ago, mrs. oswald, that there was a difference in the historic diary and what lee oswald told you concerning the status of his application for soviet citizenship. you have read the historic diary? mrs. oswald. i have only read what the fbi agents translated, those parts of the diary which were translated into russian by the fbi. representative ford. was that much of it or a small part of it? mrs. oswald. it was the part about his attempt at suicide. representative ford. and also the part concerning the status of his soviet citizenship? mrs. oswald. i think that that is the part which deals with his application for soviet citizenship. i don't know of any other parts of the diary in which this would be set forth. representative ford. you have no idea of when he wrote the historic diary? mrs. oswald. i don't know when he began, but i know that after we were married he spent the evenings writing his diary. i think that is the reason why he didn't want me to study english while we were still in russia, because he didn't want me to be able to read his diary. representative ford. he never read you the diary in russian? mrs. oswald. no. representative ford. on the trip back to the united states, lee oswald wrote on the holland-american line paper some additional comments. did you see him write this on the trip? mrs. oswald. i saw him writing this when we were in the cabin on the ship. i thought they were just letters, though, and i didn't read them. he didn't write these when i was around. representative ford. he didn't write them while you were present? mrs. oswald. no. mr. redlich. i might mention for the record that this document has already been introduced as commission exhibit no. . representative ford. if you didn't see him write it in the cabin how did you know he wrote it? mrs. oswald. in the first place, because the paper was from the holland-american line, and then i think--in the second place, because i saw these pages covered with writing in the cabin, and i think that he must have gone some place else on the ship, such as the library, to do the actual writing. representative ford. have you read that which he wrote on the ship? mrs. oswald. no; i have not read them, because i don't understand english. representative ford. he never read it to you in russian? mrs. oswald. no. representative ford. at any time on the trip back, from the time you started to leave the soviet union until you arrived in the united states, did you have any trouble at the border of the soviet union or any other country? mrs. oswald. we had no difficulty with the authorities of any kind on any border. i think that my husband may have had some financial difficulties in new york, when he arrived. representative ford. you left the soviet union by what means, now? mrs. oswald. train and boat. representative ford. you went from the soviet union to poland by train? mrs. oswald. we took a train from moscow to amsterdam, through poland and germany. representative ford. you had no difficulty going into poland, going through germany? mrs. oswald. no. representative ford. or into holland? mrs. oswald. no. and there were no difficulties in our entering the united states, either. representative ford. when you were living at elsbeth street, did you and lee have any domestic trouble? mrs. oswald. yes. representative ford. could you relate how frequently and how serious they were? mrs. oswald. the first difficulty we had was at elsbeth street when i told the landlady that i was from russia. my husband had told her that i was from czechoslovakia, and he became very angry with me for telling her i was from russia, and said that i talked too much. representative ford. that was the first incident? mrs. oswald. yes. representative ford. were there others? mrs. oswald. then we had difficulties because i had a number of russian friends in elsbeth street, around there, in dallas, and he was jealous of me, and didn't want me to see them. representative ford. during this time, did he physically abuse you? did he hit you? mrs. oswald. yes. representative ford. did mr. de mohrenschildt reprimand lee for his abuse to you? mrs. oswald. i don't know. he didn't support this. he didn't favor this conduct of my husband's. but i don't think he ever said anything to him about it, or told him that he shouldn't do it. representative ford. mr. de mohrenschildt didn't say anything to lee oswald in your presence about his abuse towards you? mrs. oswald. no; not in my presence. representative ford. did mr. de mohrenschildt take you to mellers, was it? mrs. oswald. anna meller--no; he did not. representative ford. mr. de mohrenschildt did not take you there? mrs. oswald. no; we had a quarrel, and i took the child and took a taxi, and went by myself there. representative ford. did you have money to pay for a taxi? mrs. oswald. anna meller paid for the taxi. representative ford. when you got to anna meller's? mrs. oswald. yes. representative ford. i believe that is all, mr. chairman. the chairman. mr. dulles, do you have any questions? mr. dulles. a couple, mr. chief justice. you have described this morning briefly the manner of your life in minsk. i wonder if you would also now discuss that in the united states. what did you do with your leisure time, how did oswald handle his leisure time when he wasn't working? i am speaking of your stays in dallas, fort worth, and new orleans. mrs. oswald. my life in the united states was not quite as carefree as it had been in the soviet union. i was occupied all the time with housework, and i couldn't go anywhere. lee spent a good deal of time reading. mr. dulles. were you together most of the time? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. dulles. so that you knew where lee was. lee wasn't away on trips much of the time, except for his trip to mexico, and when he was absent in new orleans? mrs. oswald. that is correct. we were together. mr. dulles. do you know what he was reading in those days? mrs. oswald. he read nonfiction almost entirely and mainly historical works. mr. dulles. was he reading russian books or mostly english books? mrs. oswald. he could read russian, but he read only english works. mr. dulles. was he doing much writing in this period, during the american stay? mrs. oswald. when we were living on elsbeth street, he wrote something, and also on neely street, i think it was in connection with the walker, general walker incident. mr. dulles. do you know what happened to that particular writing? mrs. oswald. i know that he destroyed this after the walker business. he had a map of dallas, and he used to go off by himself and think about the map, and work on it. i think you have this map in among the materials of the commission. he used to work on it, and the least disturbance used to upset him very much when he was working on this map. mr. dulles. when you say he used to go away, do you mean go away in the house or outside the house with the map? mrs. oswald. in the house, in the kitchen, and would tell me not to come in, not to make any noise at all. mr. dulles. could you specify as to time and date, as to about when he acquired this map and began this study of the map? mrs. oswald. could i ask the commission just when we were living on elsbeth street, since i have forgotten? mr. redlich. november to march . november , to march , . mrs. oswald. i think it was at the end of january, it was after new years. i think he had a map all the time, but he started becoming particularly occupied with it at the end of january . mr. dulles. ? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. dulles. did oswald, to your knowledge, have friends, associates, other men whom he saw, in addition to the considerable number whom you have described as your friends in dallas and fort worth, whom you have already described? did he have any business friends or any other friends you can think of that used to come to the house? mrs. oswald. no one, except for my friends whom i have already told you about. mr. dulles. that is all i have, mr. chief justice. the chairman. congressman, did you have any more? mr. dulles. i was speaking of the united states. mrs. oswald. yes; he told me that he was working on this map in connection with the bus schedules. he had a kind of bus schedule, and--a paper with bus schedules on it, and he was somehow comparing them or working on them, or doing something with these two documents. the chairman. congressman ford? representative ford. when you left the soviet union, lee borrowed money from the u.s. government to pay for your transportation back to the united states. did you have any other money of your own at that time? mrs. oswald. we had--it is permissible to exchange a certain amount of soviet rubles into american dollars in such cases, and we did exchange some soviet rubles--i think about $ worth--when we left. but that wasn't enough to pay the whole trip. representative ford. lee had borrowed from the government approximately $ ? mr. rankin. $ , and then the exchange made a total of $ and something. representative ford. this $ was used with the state department money for the transportation and the funds for the trip? mrs. oswald. i don't know, since my husband took care of that whole matter. he never talked about money with me. representative ford. would you describe one of the border crossings? what did the government officials do when you went from poland into germany, for example? tell us what actually happened. mrs. oswald. the train stopped and people come in and check your documents. on the russian border, of course, people come in and look at your bags--that is to say, they don't rifle through everything, but they pick things at random and look at them. representative ford. did lee carry all the documents? mrs. oswald. he carried all the documents, since i had the baby to look after. representative ford. at the polish-german border, did they actually examine the documents? mrs. oswald. more carefully between russia and poland than between poland and germany. representative ford. did lee make any acquaintances on the train and the boat? mrs. oswald. no. representative ford. did---- mrs. oswald. on the boat there were two rumanian girls we talked with, since i had studied a little bit of moldavian before, which is similar to russian, and could speak a little. and on that basis we met and talked a little. representative ford. did george de mohrenschildt at any time take you any place from the elsbeth street residence? mrs. oswald. only to his house. representative ford. did lee accompany you at that time? mrs. oswald. yes; once he took us both home to see his daughter. he took us--took me to see his daughter, at a time when i was living in fort worth, and lee was living in dallas. i might be confused about just who went, and when. representative ford. but he only took you once from one place to his house? mrs. oswald. no; we went several times to his house. maybe two or three times. representative ford. did lee accompany you on any of these occasions? mrs. oswald. mr. de mohrenschildt took us once to the ford's house. it was on new year's, i think, katya ford's house. it was either christmas or new year's. i don't think that mr. de mohrenschildt is as dangerous as he sounds. this is my personal opinion. representative ford. i wasn't implying that he was dangerous. i was just trying to---- mrs. oswald. he talks all the time. did he appear before the commission or not? mr. rankin. we have his testimony. representative ford. i have nothing further. the chairman. i think that is all, mrs. oswald. thank you very much. mr. mckenzie. i have some questions, if i may. the chairman. yes; mr. mckenzie. mr. mckenzie. you mentioned earlier, in response to some question, that your husband had stated that the soviet government wanted him to become a soviet citizen, but that his diary says the opposite. when did you first learn that the soviet government wanted lee harvey oswald to become a soviet citizen? mrs. oswald. i heard this months after we were married, from lee. mr. mckenzie. did any soviet---- mr. dulles. who did you hear it from? mrs. oswald. from lee. mr. mckenzie. did any soviet government official come to see you or lee after you were married, and visit with you? mrs. oswald. no. mr. mckenzie. did lee, from time to time, have to report to any soviet government agency after you were married? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. mckenzie. and how often did he make a report to a government official or to a government agency? mrs. oswald. he had to go every month or every months. i don't remember how often. it was either every month or every or and get a stamp in his residence permit. mr. mckenzie. and how long would he be gone on those occasions from home, or from work? mrs. oswald. about half an hour. mr. mckenzie. you have mentioned that he had cuban friends and friends from the argentine in minsk. did he ever have any mexican friends in minsk? mrs. oswald. no. mr. mckenzie. did he ever mention to you anyone that he knew in mexico, either from cuba or from the soviet union or from any other place, any name of anyone? mrs. oswald. he might have had some, but i don't know anything about any of them. he never mentioned it. mr. mckenzie. it has been reported that--in the papers--that at the time you left new orleans, or at the time that lee harvey oswald left new orleans, that he had two books on marxism and a fiction book written by ian fleming called "to russia with love." do you recall seeing that book there in the apartment? mrs. oswald. i only knew about the two books on marxism and leninism. i don't know anything about this third one. mr. mckenzie. and those books you know about, were they books from the public library in new orleans? mrs. oswald. i think these were his own private possession. i think he had even a book in english when he was in russia on marxism. mr. mckenzie. after your arrival in the united states, and after you had left fort worth, and had moved into your own apartment, did your husband have any money? mrs. oswald. when he left dallas for fort worth? mr. mckenzie. yes. mrs. oswald. i think he had some money saved up. he always was saving money for a rainy day. (at this point, representative ford withdrew from the hearing room.) mr. mckenzie. from what source did he save that money? where did the money come from? mrs. oswald. only from his salary, from his wages. mr. mckenzie. when he was not working, did he have any other source of money, or did he have money? mrs. oswald. when he wasn't working, he got some unemployment compensation from the place where he had been working. mr. mckenzie. did he ever receive money to your knowledge from any other sources, other than from the government or from his work? mrs. oswald. the only sources i know of were the companies where he worked. mr. mckenzie. who did your husband consider as good friends of his in dallas, tex.? mrs. oswald. he was most friendly with george de mohrenschildt. however, this is not a very nice thing to say for mr. de mohrenschildt's reputation. this has been--had a harmful effect on mr. de mohrenschildt's reputation as a result of the assassination, the fact that he was friendly with my husband. mr. mckenzie. did your husband have any other good friends? for example, did he consider michael paine a good friend of his? mrs. oswald. no; he didn't like michael paine. therefore, i was surprised when they went to this meeting together. perhaps they became friends after this. but it didn't seem so to me. he didn't show it to me. mr. mckenzie. did your husband ever give you money or did you ever handle money in caring for the household, or did he take care of the money? mrs. oswald. he never gave me any money. we would go shopping together, and he would make all the payments. mr. mckenzie. were there not times when you didn't have enough money and food in the house, and friends had to help you? mrs. oswald. it never happened that there was no food in the house and that friends had to help us. the only time when this might have been the case was immediately after our arrival in the united states, when i gave some russian lessons to mr. gregory and his son, and he paid me for it. and once after we arrived mr. george bouhe saw that i was rather thin and took us to a grocery store and bought us a lot of stuff. mr. mckenzie. and did mr. george bouhe or mrs. ford have to take you to the hospital at one time or another? mrs. oswald. no. mr. mckenzie. for june? mrs. oswald. not mrs. ford and not mr. bouhe. mr. mckenzie. who was it? mrs. oswald. lydia dymitruk took me to the hospital. mr. mckenzie. that is all i have, mr. chief justice. the chairman. thank you, mrs. oswald, i think that will be all. mr. mckenzie. mr. chief justice, before we close for the day i do have one request i would like to make of the commission on the record. the chairman. yes. mr. mckenzie. on behalf of mrs. oswald, i would like to have returned to her the original or original copies of all letters which she has previously furnished to the commission, diaries, pictures, or any personal property of lee harvey oswald that was presented to the commission, including his personal effects and his diary, in particular his wedding ring, a watch, belt buckles, or any personal effects belonging to either lee harvey oswald or mrs. oswald that have been presented as original exhibits to the commission. the chairman. the commission will consider that in connection with all the other things that you asked for in connection with her writings. mr. mckenzie. and may i respectfully ask this. in the commission's consideration of our request, in connection with the original instruments or documents, or whatever it may be, do you at this time have any idea how long it would be before the commission would decide? the chairman. well, i think---- mr. mckenzie. mind you, i ask that as respectfully as i possibly can. the chairman. well, i answer you as well as i can. we are driving to conclude the work of the commission, and we believe that it will be completed in the next month--we hope so, anyway. mr. mckenzie. of course she has no objection whatsoever for the commission to have the documents which it now has as long as the originals are returned to her. the chairman. we will give consideration to that, because there are some things that are evidence here, that belonged to him, that perhaps will have to remain evidence. i can't make any analysis of all of those things at the present time. but, for instance, let us say, the gun. mr. mckenzie. we want that, too. the chairman. i say, we will give consideration to that. but i cannot give you any assurance of it at this time. mr. rankin. mr. chief justice, i would like to have the record show at this point--we have no objection to what you propose and say we should do about supplying new copies of material, but i don't want the record to indicate we took their copies away from them, because we understand their manager and former counsel kept the copies or the originals, and have them. so that we are not just taking them for ourselves. i don't want the record to appear---- mr. mckenzie. mr. rankin, i would not have the record reflect that, either. and i say that at all times that they were voluntarily given to the commission. and the only thing i am asking for is a return of everything mrs. oswald has previously furnished the commission, with the understanding that the commission has the copies of them--she wants the originals back. in particular, there is a wedding ring that i would like to ask the commission to return at this time. the chairman. well, these things will have to be considered, all of them, by the whole commission, counsel. but we will give them consideration. we won't be turning anything back today, because we want the whole commission to see what is essential. mr. mckenzie. thank you, sir. the chairman. all right. i think that will be all. the commission will adjourn. (whereupon, at : p.m., the president's commission recessed.) _tuesday, june , _ testimony of robert alan surrey the president's commission met at : a.m., on june , , at maryland avenue ne., washington, d.c. present were chief justice earl warren, chairman; senator john sherman cooper, and representative hale boggs, members. also present were j. lee rankin, general counsel; and albert e. jenner, jr., assistant counsel. (members present: chief justice warren, senator cooper, and representative boggs.) the chairman. mr. surrey, we have asked you to come here to testify concerning two things. the first is we want to ask you concerning the printing of a publication entitled, "wanted for treason" that appeared on the streets november , , in dallas. and then we propose to ask you also some questions about the home of general walker, in connection with an attempt that was made on his life some time before the d of november. you are prepared to testify, are you? mr. surrey. i talked to mr. jenner. i am prepared to testify as concerns the walker episode. i do not wish to testify as concerns the wanted poster, or the "wanted for treason." the chairman. for what reason--what reason do you assign for not wanting to? it is not a question of whether a witness wants to testify here. he is subpenaed to testify, and he must testify unless he has a privilege. mr. surrey. i believe that my answers would tend to incriminate me under the fifth amendment. the chairman. very well. you are entitled to raise that question. and, if you do, that privilege will be respected. but we will ask you a question concerning it, and if you claim your privilege it will be respected. and then if you want to testify--are willing to testify about the other matters, you may do so. would you rise and raise your right hand and be sworn? you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before this commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. surrey. i do. representative boggs. mr. chairman, i would suppose that we would not be limited to one question. if he wants to plead the fifth amendment, of course that is his privilege. but i would hope that we could ask him several questions, and if he wants to plead he can plead on each question. the chairman. well, on any phase of it that you wish to ask him a question, of course it is all right. mr. jenner will conduct the examination. mr. surrey. is it my understanding that if i do invoke the fifth amendment to begin with, then i do not have the privilege of later on invoking it, is that correct? the chairman. well, i believe it is a fact that on any phase of your testimony, if you testify in part about that phase, you can be required to testify fully concerning it. but if there is one phase of your testimony that you want to claim the privilege on, and are willing to testify as to other matters not connected with it, you can do so without waiving your privilege. does that answer your question? mr. surrey. yes, sir. the chairman. very well. mr. jenner? mr. jenner. thank you, mr. chief justice. mr. chief justice, i offer in evidence as commission exhibit no. the original of the subpena served upon mr. surrey. the chairman. yes. a subpena was served on you, was it, mr. surrey? mr. surrey. yes; it was. the chairman. very well, it may be admitted. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification, and received in evidence.) mr. jenner. you are appearing in response to the subpena? mr. surrey. yes; i am. mr. jenner. were you furnished with copies of the senate joint resolution, or legislation which created--authorized the creation of the commission? mr. surrey. at a previous time; yes. mr. jenner. and president johnson's executive order, and the rules and regulations of the commission as to taking of testimony? mr. surrey. yes; i was. it was hard to read them. mr. jenner. yes; they are a little bit difficult to read. in order that you may exercise the rights that you have indicated to the chief justice, i will question you first about the pamphlet, after asking you the preliminary questions as to your name. mr. surrey. robert alan surrey. mr. jenner. and what is your address? mr. surrey. lindenwood, dallas, tex. mr. jenner. how long have you resided there? mr. surrey. eight years. mr. jenner. and what is your age? mr. surrey. thirty-eight. mr. jenner. where were you born? mr. surrey. oak park, ill. mr. jenner. when did you move to texas? mr. surrey. first moved there in , and then left for years, from to , and then moved back to texas. mr. jenner. you are a college graduate; are you not? mr. surrey. yes; i am. mr. jenner. what university or college? mr. surrey. northwestern. mr. jenner. in evanston, ill? mr. surrey. yes. mr. jenner. when did you receive your degree? mr. surrey. . mr. jenner. you are married? mr. surrey. yes; i am. mr. jenner. is mrs. surrey a native born american? mr. surrey. yes; she is a dallasite. mr. jenner. she is a dallas girl? mr. surrey. yes. mr. jenner. what is your business, occupation, or profession? mr. surrey. i am a printing salesman. mr. jenner. for what company? mr. surrey. for johnson printing co. mr. jenner. is that located at north haskell, in dallas? mr. surrey. yes; it is. mr. jenner. how long have you been employed by johnson printing co.? mr. surrey. seven years. mr. jenner. would you tell us in a general way what johnson printing co. does? i appreciate the name in the title of the company indicates printing, but what kind? mr. surrey. commercial printing, advertising printing, house organs--just general commercial work. mr. jenner. did you have some military service? mr. surrey. yes; i did. mr. jenner. would you state what it was? mr. surrey. i was years in the navy, in world war ii. mr. jenner. are you also the president of a book publishing company located in dallas? mr. surrey. the american eagle publishing co? mr. jenner. yes, sir. mr. surrey. yes; i am. mr. jenner. the only volume i have seen--there was a publication of reprints of newspaper stories. mr. surrey. called the assassination story, yes, sir. mr. jenner. and your name appeared, i think, in that as the president of the company. mr. surrey. a cover letter that was on the back cover. mr. jenner. and---- mr. surrey. this was not our only publication. we have done many publications before that. representative boggs. do we have a copy of this publication? mr. jenner. of this particular one? mr. surrey. mr. alger's office came to me and requested two copies for the warren commission, which i furnished to him. representative boggs. whose office? mr. surrey. congressman bruce alger's office. representative boggs. did we make such a request through congressman alger? mr. jenner. i am not advised as to whether we did or not. mr. rankin. i am quite sure we did not. the chairman. did we receive any such copies? mr. jenner. there is none among our exhibits in the exhibit room. mr. surrey. his secretary called, and they came out to the house and got two copies of it. representative boggs. how long ago was this? mr. surrey. oh, i would say weeks. representative boggs. when did you publish this book? mr. surrey. i believe it was finally ready on january , right after january --january , , or , right in that area. representative boggs. what does the book allege? mr. surrey. we took the -day period following the assassination from both dallas papers, the dallas morning news, and dallas times herald, and just all the clippings pertaining to it were in chronological order, and just shot them cold, and published them. representative boggs. nothing else--just newspaper clippings? mr. surrey. just newspaper clippings. representative boggs. no editorial comment of any kind? mr. surrey. outside of the letter on the back; no. representative boggs. and what is the letter on the back? mr. surrey. it said--this is just to the best of my knowledge, i don't recall exactly--"this is the local report of what happened when president kennedy was assassinated. it is difficult to muzzle a local reporter in his own local paper. and we feel that some of the news that might not get out would be included in this book. we do not guarantee the accuracy of the information, but it will pose some questions, a few perhaps that the warren commission will not see fit to answer," i believe was in there. representative boggs. not see fit to what? mr. surrey. to answer. representative boggs. what was the implication of that? mr. surrey. the implication being, as i see it, in dallas--a local reporter--this is, for example. a local reporter from the times herald went down to the western union office several days after the assassination, and was told by the people in the western union office that, yes, they remembered oswald, he had been in, he had gotten money orders, either the day before or just recently he had sent a wire to somebody, and they recalled his swahili handwriting, and so forth. well, i feel that surely western union knows who sent oswald money, and so forth. now, i don't know if this will come out of this commission or not. representative boggs. the implication was that this commission would not investigate these allegations? mr. surrey. no--perhaps. representative boggs. well, what did you mean by the word "muzzle"? mr. surrey. of the press? representative boggs. you used "muzzle" in this letter--written. i don't have the letter before me. i would like to have it. mr. surrey. i don't, either. i would like to know what the exact wording was on it, sir. representative boggs. did you write it? mr. surrey. yes. representative boggs. and the implication was that this commission would not seek out the entire truth of the incidences arising---- mr. surrey. oh, no, sir; this was not the implication of the muzzling. this was not the implication. representative boggs. what was the implication of the statement you made a moment ago, about questions that would not be asked by this commission? mr. surrey. news happens in an area, and after it has been up to the national news system, and then comes back through, and analyzed and so forth, i don't put full credit any longer. representative boggs. your theory is that in a matter as significant as the assassination of the president of the united states, that the news as reported outside of dallas would be untruthful? mr. surrey. possibly. representative boggs. is that the substance of the book? mr. surrey. no. no; the substance of the book is strictly newspaper clippings. representative boggs. plus a letter. mr. surrey. the letter is on the back cover of the book, just a cover letter. representative boggs. tell me more about what the letter says. mr. surrey. i would much rather have the letter. i don't recall exactly what it does say, sir. the chairman. did you write it yourself, or did somebody write it for you? mr. surrey. i wrote it myself. the chairman. you don't remember what you wrote? mr. surrey. no; not as per specific words, i do not. representative boggs. well, not specific words. the sense. mr. surrey. you picked the specific word "muzzling" out of it. representative boggs. you used that word; i didn't use it. "muzzle" when you refer to a bipartisan commission, established by the president of the united states, with a mandate to obtain the truth, is a rather serious word. i didn't use it--you used it. mr. surrey. based on some past experience that i have had--i was in oxford, miss., with general walker. based on past experience of the newspaper reports i heard coming out of national news media on that incident, which i saw with my own eyes, i could not believe any longer things which i read in the newspaper. now, the local paper there--and i was not privileged to read the local papers at the time--may have had some of the truth that went on there. but there certainly wasn't a good deal of it coming out in the national news media. senator cooper. did you select the clippings that were in the book? mr. surrey. pardon? senator cooper. did you select the newspaper clippings? mr. surrey. no; i did not. senator cooper. who selected them? mr. surrey. a couple named osburn that lived in dallas. senator cooper. who are they? mr. surrey. just some people that live in dallas. senator cooper. do you know their names? mr. surrey. just osburn. senator cooper. do you know their address? mr. surrey. no; i do not. the chairman. how did you happen to be associated with them? mr surrey. mrs. osburn works at walker's offce. the chairman. you are speaking of general walker? mr. surrey. yes. representative boggs. well, now, go ahead. i would request, mr. chairman, that this book and this letter be made a part of the record of this commission. the chairman. will you supply us with a copy of the book? mr. surrey. if i have one, sir. they are out of print. and i don't know---- the chairman. are they all sold? mr. surrey. well, we were going into reprint, right at that particular time the attorney from the times herald called and put a cease and desist on them. the chairman. how many copies did you have printed? mr. surrey. , . the chairman. were they sold? mr. surrey. some of them were; yes, sir. the chairman. how many were sold? mr. surrey. i would say about to a thousand. the chairman. what became of the rest of them? mr. surrey. they were sent to our presubscriber list, and given away. the chairman. is this company that published them a corporation? mr. surrey. no; it is a partnership. the chairman. who are the partners? mr. surrey. myself and general walker. the chairman. and general walker? representative boggs. was this pamphlet that you printed included in the book? mr. jenner. excuse me. that is---- representative boggs. "wanted for treason"? mr. jenner. commission exhibit no. . mr. surrey. no. representative boggs. that was not included? mr. surrey. no. representative boggs. you didn't make that a part of the record of the events surrounding the assassination of president kennedy? mr. surrey. i did not make it a part of the record? representative boggs. in this record that you published. mr. surrey. i had nothing to do with making it a part of the record. representative boggs. you published the book, didn't you? mr. surrey. yes; but these were newspaper reprints. representative boggs. you published this, too, didn't you? mr. surrey. no, sir. representative boggs. you didn't publish it? mr. surrey. no, sir. the chairman. you are speaking of the book now? representative boggs. i am talking about your printing company. mr. surrey. you are talking about my printing company? representative boggs. the company you work for. mr. surrey. yes, johnson printing co. representative boggs. didn't you publish this? mr. surrey. no. representative boggs. who printed it? mr. surrey. i decline to answer on the grounds it may tend to incriminate me. representative boggs. mr. chairman, i, of course, fully appreciate the right of the witness to plead the fifth amendment. but i would simply like to make the observation that this is the only witness out of hundreds who has pled the fifth amendment, and that obviously if each witness had done this, then the charge of being muzzled would be something that we would really be confronted with. i would simply like to make that observation. the chairman. you may proceed, mr. jenner. mr. jenner. thank you. does the american eagle publishing co. have a bookstore subsidiary or outlet? mr. surrey. no; we do not. mr. jenner. what is the american eagle book store? mr. surrey. there is no american eagle book store. the chairman. do you have a headquarters? mr. surrey. no, sir. the chairman. do you have a telephone? mr. surrey. no, sir. the chairman. are you listed with the local authorities under a fictitious or assumed name? mr. surrey. yes--doing business as? the chairman. doing business as, yes. mr. surrey. yes. the chairman. and the names given are yourself and general walker? mr. surrey. yes, sir. the chairman. where is that filed--with your county clerk? mr. surrey. county clerk in dallas. mr. jenner. we have talked about general walker. that is general edwin a. walker, now resigned? mr. surrey. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and do you know a robert g. krause? mr. surrey. i refuse to answer on the grounds the answer may tend to incriminate me. mr. jenner. was he not formerly employed by johnson printing co.? mr. surrey. i refuse to answer for the same reason. representative boggs. excuse me. mr. chief justice--we will have testimony from mr. krause, i presume? mr. jenner. yes; do you know of a company, a printing company, lettercraft printing co.? mr. surrey. i refuse to answer--same reason. the chairman. for the reason it would tend to incriminate you? mr. surrey. yes, sir. mr. jenner. did you not prepare the copy for commission exhibit no. ? mr. surrey. i decline to answer on the same reason; that it would tend to incriminate me. mr. jenner. and, in turn, turn that copy over to robert g. krause, of the lettercraft printing co. for reproduction? mr. surrey. i decline to answer, same reason. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. jenner. exhibiting again exhibit no.--commission exhibit no. to you, you will notice a front and profile view of president kennedy. did you bring to robert krause photographs of which this is a reproduction? mr. surrey. i decline to answer on the grounds it may incriminate me. mr. jenner. in fact, did you not bring to robert g. krause two slick paper magazine photographs of president kennedy and request and engage him to make photographs of the slick paper magazine photos for the purpose of reproduction? mr. surrey. i decline to answer; same reason. mr. jenner. and did you not pay robert g. krause and his wife for printing some , to , of these handbills, of which commission exhibit no. is a copy? mr. surrey. i decline to answer on the grounds it may incriminate me. mr. jenner. did you thereafter--did you not in fact thereafter, yourself--well, i will ask you first--yourself, distribute duplicates of exhibit no. in and about the streets of dallas, tex., on november and days preceding? mr. surrey. point of order. can i ask a question? if i now answer one or two in through here, does this---- the chairman. well, this is connected with the entire situation--the publication, the distribution of it is one and the same subject matter, i would think. mr. surrey. i decline to answer on the grounds it may incriminate me. mr. jenner. mr. chief justice, i might bring this out. having received the rules and regulations of the commission with respect to the taking of testimony, you are aware of the fact that you are entitled to have counsel present? mr. surrey. yes; i am, sir. mr. jenner. and you appear without counsel? mr. surrey. i cannot afford to bring counsel. mr. jenner. but you do appear without counsel? mr. surrey. yes; i do. representative boggs. i think, mr. chief justice, the record should show if this man requested counsel he would be entitled to counsel, would he not? mr. jenner. he certainly would. and he has not requested it. representative boggs. i just want the record to show that. the chairman. yes. senator cooper. did you request counsel? mr. surrey. from whom, sir? senator cooper. did you request the commission to appoint counsel for you? mr. surrey. no; i did not. i did not know this was available. representative boggs. i might say it is still available. mr. surrey. would this be a court-appointed? the chairman. beg pardon? mr. surrey. would this be a court-appointed attorney? the chairman. no; it would be an attorney appointed by the commission. mr. surrey. thank you. the chairman. proceed, mr. jenner. representative boggs. you prefer not to have an attorney appointed by the commission? mr. surrey. yes, sir. representative boggs. we might let the record show at this point, also, that the american bar association has been closely associated with the commission. mr. surrey. what does that mean? i mean what is the purpose of that remark? representative boggs. to show that the attorneys appointed are completely objective. mr. surrey. i did not imply they were not, sir. mr. jenner. do you know mrs. clifford mercer, dorothy mercer? mr. surrey. i decline to answer on the grounds it may incriminate me. mr. jenner. do you know mr. clifford mercer? mr. surrey. i decline to answer; same reason. mr. jenner. do you know of a photoengraving company in dallas, young street, monks bros.? mr. surrey. i decline to answer on the grounds it may incriminate me. mr. jenner. do you know j. t. monk or j. t. monk, jr.? mr. surrey. i decline to answer, same grounds. mr. jenner. did you have one of the workmen, printing workmen, at johnson printing co., set type for the copy which appears on commission exhibit no. ? mr. surrey. i decline to answer on the grounds it may tend to incriminate me. mr. jenner. and thereafter, after that type was set, have photographs made of that type? mr. surrey. i decline to answer; same reason. mr. jenner. do you know mr. bernard weissman? mr. surrey. no. we are in another field now, i gather. mr. jenner. well, i don't want to represent to you that it is. mr. surrey. i decline to answer on the ground it may tend to incriminate me. mr. jenner. have you had any business relations with a man by the name of bernard weissman? mr. surrey. if this is in your opinion still part of the other--concerning these leaflets, then i will plead the fifth amendment. mr. jenner. mr. chief justice, with the policy of the commission to be fully fair to all witnesses, may i respond to the witness and say to him there is that possibility. the chairman. there is that possibility; yes--that is a sufficient statement. mr. jenner. and being that possibility, do you wish to decline to answer the question on the ground an answer may tend to incriminate you? mr. surrey. yes, sir. mr. jenner. mr. chief justice, unless you or other members of the commission have some questions on this line of examination, i will not ask further questions with respect to it--unless you gentlemen desire to ask questions. the chairman. any further questions, congressman boggs? representative boggs. was anyone associated with you in the publication of this leaflet? mr. surrey. i decline to answer on the ground it may tend to incriminate me. the chairman. did general walker have anything to do with it? mr. surrey. i decline to answer on the ground it may tend to incriminate me--but, no. the chairman. what? now you have opened that up, sir--if you say--was your answer no, or is your answer that you claim the privilege? mr. surrey. my answer is that i claim the privilege, sir. the chairman. that is different. senator cooper. may i just ask one question? to return for a moment to this book that you printed with newspaper clippings--what was your purpose in printing it? mr. surrey. as a memento, primarily. senator cooper. you had no other purpose? mr. surrey. no, sir. senator cooper. didn't you really have the purpose of impugning the work of this commission and giving the implication that it would not go fully and thoroughly into all questions? mr. surrey. no, sir. this was not the intent; no. representative boggs. what was the allegation in the cease and desist order which was issued against you by the dallas newspaper? mr. surrey. that this would be in competition to a book which they were going to promote--i believe the ap. at the time--the osburns had this, and they were gathering it together, and they brought it over one day, and it looked like a real good idea. other people had stacks and stacks of papers. and this was a compilation of clippings of the paper. and everybody thought it was such a good idea that we thought we would publish it. so i got it into brownline form, which is a proof, a preliminary proof--silver prints, you may call them in washington. the chairman. for how much did you sell these books a copy? mr. surrey. we gave them free to our presubscriber list. the chairman. i didn't ask you that. mr. surrey. they were $ per copy. the chairman. and how many did you say you sold? mr. surrey. about to a , . the chairman. what happened to the money? mr. surrey. it was put into the american eagle publishing co. account. the chairman. do you have a regular bookkeeping system? mr. surrey. yes, sir. the chairman. and those figures would be available, showing how many you had sold, would they? mr. surrey. yes, sir. the chairman. in your books? mr. surrey. yes, sir. representative boggs. is the american eagle publishing co. an incorporated company? mr. surrey. no. representative boggs. what is it? mr. surrey. partnership, sir. representative boggs. who are the partners? mr. surrey. myself and general walker. representative boggs. and this presubscription list, how many people on that? mr. surrey. i would say , . representative boggs. you publish a newspaper? mr. surrey. no; we don't. representative boggs. what do you publish besides this book? mr. surrey. pamphlets--pamphlets. mr. jenner. you receive part of your income from the american eagle publishing co.? mr. surrey. no; i do not. mr. jenner. you serve as president, but you receive no compensation for that? mr. surrey. that is true. mr. jenner. would you tell us, please, the address of the american eagle publishing co.? mr. surrey. p.o. box , dallas . mr. jenner. it has no physical office itself--just the post office address? mr. surrey. that is correct. that mail comes to my desk at johnson printing co. that is the same post office box as johnson printing co. mr. jenner. i see. and where do you keep--where does american publishing co. warehouse or keep or store its pamphlets and books? mr. surrey. turtle creek boulevard, mr. walker's residence. i have a room. mr. jenner. that is general walker's residence? mr. surrey. yes. the chairman. that is general walker's residence? mr. surrey. yes; it is. the chairman. who owns the johnson printing co.? mr. surrey. it is--the stock is split, four or five different people. the chairman. a corporation? mr. surrey. yes; it is. the chairman. who are they? mr. surrey. mr. bryan snyder is chairman of the board. mr. emil borak is president, and mr. lewis c. owens is treasurer. i believe some stock is held by oliver snyder, and i have some stock. and mr. fallon snyder. the chairman. it is a commercial company? mr. surrey. yes; it is. the chairman. is general walker connected with it? mr. surrey. no; he is not. the chairman. or with the other people, as far as you know? mr. surrey. no, sir. mr. jenner. is mr. borak the general manager of the plant itself? mr. surrey. no; he is president of the company. mr. jenner. i see. who is the general manager of the plant? mr. surrey. mr. owens. mr. jenner. mr. owens. did you acquaint mr. owens or mr. borak, either of them, with the fact that you had commission exhibit no. printed at the lettercraft printing co.? mr. surrey. i decline to answer on the ground it may tend to incriminate me. mr. jenner. did you make either or both of them aware of the fact that some of the copy or all of the copy with respect to commission exhibit no. was prepared by way of printing at johnson printing co.? mr. surrey. i decline to answer on the ground it may tend to incriminate me. mr. jenner. how many printers do you have at johnson printing co.? mr. surrey. how many employees? mr. jenner. no--that operate linotypes or operate these machines that produce these slugs--what is the name of that kind of machine? mr. surrey. well, it would be a monotype or a linotype or a ludlow. mr. jenner. are these lines on exhibit no. ludlow productions? mr. surrey. i decline to answer on the ground it may tend to incriminate me. mr. jenner. who are the ludlow machine operators at johnson printing co.? mr. surrey. oh, i would say there are probably or that operate the ludlow machine. mr. jenner. does your recollection serve you to name those who operated the ludlow machines any time during the first days of november ? if so, name them. mr. surrey. i decline to answer on the ground it may tend to incriminate me. mr. jenner. are you able to name any of the linotype operators who were employed during the first days of november ? mr. surrey. who were employed at johnson printing co.? mr. jenner. yes, sir. mr. surrey. well, i gather this has nothing to do with this. so may i answer? mr. jenner. i don't want to lead you to believe it doesn't, sir. mr. surrey. i decline to answer on the ground it may incriminate me. mr. jenner. from whom was the paper purchased on which appears the imprinting on the exhibit identified here as commission exhibit no. . mr. surrey. i decline to answer on the same grounds. mr. jenner. did you see another reproduction of commission exhibit no. at any time from the st of november to and including the d of november ? mr. surrey. i decline to answer on the grounds it may incriminate me. mr. jenner. mr. chief justice, i will now depart from this particular phase, if that is permissible. the chairman. very well. mr. jenner. i am now going to turn, mr. surrey, to the attempt on the life of general walker. first i would like to have you examine a series of photographs which purport to be photographs of the area of the walker house. mr. chief justice, may i approach the witness for this purpose? the chairman. yes. mr. jenner. i show the witness commission exhibit no. , item no. , and subdivision item no. p- . do you see that, sir? mr. surrey. yes; i do. mr. jenner. examining the subitem, p- , is the area depicted in that photograph familiar to you? mr. surrey. yes; it is. it is the alley in behind mr. walker's residence, looking west. mr. jenner. looking west? mr. surrey. yes. mr. jenner. would you be able to help us as to an estimate, perhaps from the nature of the foliage, and your familiarity with the walker premises, as to when that photograph might have been taken, as to season of the year? mr. surrey. i would say late fall. mr. jenner. could it have been the early spring, mid-march, for example? st of march, along in there? mr. surrey. it could have been; yes. mr. jenner. either in the fall, when there is a deleafing or lack of foliage on trees, or the early spring? mr. surrey. yes, sir. mr. jenner. i show you what purports to be the same thing, also marked--it is a larger photograph--commission exhibit no. , item no. . directing your attention to the subdivision p- you have just testified about, are they photographs---- mr. surrey. basically the same thing. it looks like this one was taken a little closer to the ground. mr. jenner. when you say this one, you mean the larger of the two? mr. surrey. yes. mr. jenner. on commission exhibit no. , item , subitem p- , directing your attention to that, you recognize that? mr. surrey. that is a picture of the back of the residence of turtle creek. mr. jenner. general edwin walker's home? mr. surrey. yes. mr. jenner. i perhaps should have asked you this: you are familiar with the area surrounding general walker's home? mr. surrey. yes, i am. mr. jenner. you have been there a good many times, have you? mr. surrey. yes, i have. mr. jenner. on all sides of the home? mr. surrey. yes. mr. jenner. and are you familiar with the inside of the home? mr. surrey. yes; i am. mr. jenner. and have you worked there from time to time over the years? mr. surrey. yes. mr. jenner. how long have you been associated with general walker? mr. surrey. since the beginning of his campaign, when that was--i think the spring--about years now. the chairman. what campaign is that? mr. surrey. when he ran for governor of texas. mr. jenner. that initiated your association with him? mr. surrey. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and what are your duties in your association with general walker? mr. surrey. i am just a volunteer helper, whatever he needed, volunteer help in doing, i would help. mr. jenner. are you compensated? mr. surrey. no; i am not. mr. jenner. you have never received any compensation? mr. surrey. no; i haven't. mr. jenner. you have never received any compensation from the publishing company we have identified that published that book? mr. surrey. no, sir. the chairman. do you handle any funds for general walker? mr. surrey. of general walker's fund? the chairman. yes. mr. surrey. no, sir. the chairman. or any funds---- mr. surrey. except what---- the chairman. or any funds that come to general walker? mr. surrey. no; only that comes to american eagle co., which is in fact, i guess, technically his funds. the chairman. well, what funds do come to american eagle co.? mr. surrey. funds for purchasing of materials, and some donations. that is it. the chairman. outside of donations, how do you get your funds for publishing? mr. surrey. from the sale of materials. the chairman. and the rest of it is all donations? mr. surrey. donations are extremely small, as a matter of fact, yes. we operate on the sale of materials. the chairman. how much in the aggregate of donations have you had? mr. surrey. to american eagle publishing co.? the chairman. yes. mr. surrey. i would say a hundred dollars. the chairman. a hundred dollars? mr. surrey. over years or - / years. the chairman. where did you get the money to publish your book? mr. surrey. at the beginning of american eagle publishing co., we started with a backlog of books which had been used in the campaign. this was mr. walker's contribution to the american eagle publishing co. the chairman. did general walker sell his campaign books? mr. surrey. i don't know if he did or not. the chairman. well, you don't pay publishing funds with books, do you? mr. surrey. from the sale of the books which were turned over to american eagle co. at its inception, from the sale of those books, we have accumulated funds to go on with others. the chairman. at its inception, where did you get the money to publish? mr. surrey. i don't understand your question, sir. the chairman. well---- mr. surrey. at its inception we didn't have any money. the chairman. when you publish books, you have to have some capital of some kind. mr. surrey. the capital was raised from the sale of a book called "walker speaks unmuzzled" which sells for cents. we started with that. the chairman. you published that first? mr. surrey. no, sir. the chairman. who published that? mr. surrey. i believe general walker did. the chairman. and how much money came from the sale of those books? mr. surrey. i do not know offhand, sir. the chairman. approximately. mr. surrey. we are still selling them. the chairman. beg pardon? mr. surrey. we are still selling them. the chairman. but you handle the funds, don't you, for the company? mr. surrey. yes; but i don't know specific items. the chairman. well, i am not asking you for specific items. but i would like to know approximately how much money. let me put it this way: how much money have you handled for that company in the last--since it has been established? mr. surrey. oh, as a rough estimate, $ , to $ , . the chairman. and only a hundred dollars of that was contributions from outsiders? mr. surrey. i would say that would be it. the chairman. and was there any of that $ , or $ , that came from any individual other than from people who purchased the hooks? mr. surrey. yes; at one time the general put some more money into the company. the chairman. how much money did he put into it? mr. surrey. i believe a thousand dollars. the chairman. that is all? mr. surrey. yes. the chairman. anybody else put any money into it? mr. surrey. no, sir. the chairman. did you? mr. surrey. no, sir. the chairman. very well. mr. jenner. mr. chief justice, may i revert to the other subject matter? i have an additional question i would like to ask. and i warn the witness in advance i am returning to the pamphlet. the chairman. yes. mr. jenner. your questions have stimulated me to ask another question. the chairman. yes. mr. jenner. were any of the funds that reached eagle publishing co. by way of contributions or proceeds of sale of materials employed or used to pay for the leaflet, commission exhibit no. ? mr. surrey. now, i understand that if i answer that question, it opens up the whole thing again. so i decline to answer on the grounds it may incriminate me. the chairman. gentlemen, i have asked our chief counsel, mr. rankin, to have a search of our files made and our telephone calls to see if we have received anything from congressman alger concerning this book. and mr. rankin, will you report to us what your finding is, please? mr. rankin. i had a search made of our files, and any incoming calls from the congressman to see if we had received any such material, and such a search showed that we had not received any such material. i then called congressman alger's office to ask there if there had been any communication from them, and was informed that they had not sent anything to us, but that one of the booklets had been given away by congressman alger, and they had one left, and i have sent for that one to have for our records. representative boggs. i would like to see it when it gets here. you expect it pretty soon? mr. rankin. i sent him on the run. representative boggs. good. mr. jenner. mr. surrey, i will return to the general walker incident now. i would like you particularly to examine the next photograph, which appears in commission exhibit no. , item , as subletter p- . this depicts, mr. chairman, and gentlemen, a railroad track--in the far distance a tall building. is that area at all familiar to you? that is undoubtedly the mkt line, or some spur line. you are familiar with the mkt line, are you not? mr. surrey. this i do not recognize the area. mr. jenner. i will ask you this. is there a railroad near general walker's home? mr. surrey. facing out of the house, facing turtle creek, across the creek, and then another half block or so, there is a railroad. mr. jenner. within a half a block? mr. surrey. well, it would be a full city block to the railroad. perhaps even more. i have never been in that area, as a matter of fact. mr. jenner. having that in mind, i show you a photograph, aerial view photograph, which we have marked commission exhibit no. . mr. chief justice, that is a copy of the exhibit. that purports to be an aerial photograph taken of the vicinity of general walker's residence. and you will notice there is an encircled building and the designation "a." first, do you recognize that general area? mr. surrey. yes; i do. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit for identification.) mr. jenner. and does the encirclment of the home there appear to be general walker's home? mr. surrey. yes, sir; it does. i don't see a house that should be in the corner. mr. jenner. you say corner--you mean---- mr. surrey. right there. mr. jenner. to the left? mr. surrey. yes; there is a house there between walker's residence and the next house, and the street here, which is avondale, i believe. mr. jenner. and you are talking about the street here--you are pointing to a street that runs obliquely from left to right towards the upper corner of the picture? mr. surrey. yes. mr. jenner. to the left of the house encircled as general walker's house? mr. surrey. yes. oh, i see, i am sorry. it is much further back from the street. that is the house. mr. jenner. now, the house you say that is next is the one immediately to the left of the one encircled? mr. surrey. yes; i was looking in this area for the houses. that is correct. that is general walker's residence, as depicted in the picture. mr. jenner. and the house to the left is the house you thought at first was not shown, but in fact it is shown? mr. surrey. it is. mr. jenner. and who is the owner of that home? mr. surrey. i do not know. a doctor. mr. jenner. a lady doctor? mr. surrey. yes; it is a woman, runs the household. mr. jenner. dr. ruth jackson? mr. surrey. it sounds familiar, but i do not know. mr. jenner. does she have a dog that is sometimes obstreperous, does a lot of barking? mr. surrey. yes; she does. mr. jenner. you are quite familiar with that fact, are you? mr. surrey. yes, sir; i am. mr. jenner. how and why did you become familiar with that fact? mr. surrey. anyone approaching the house, generally her house or general walker's house, would be barked at, in the middle of the night noises. mr. jenner. and you have approached general walker's house, i assume, at night, have you? mr. surrey. yes. mr. jenner. if the dog is out in dr. jackson's yard, the dog is alerted and barks? mr. surrey. not so much any more. evidently he knows who i am now. mr. jenner. i see. but before the dog became familiar with you, he did bark? mr. surrey. yes, sir. mr. jenner. what kind of a dog is it, by the way? mr. surrey. a small collie, i guess--shaggy, brownish dog. mr. jenner. do you recall whether or not at or about the time of the attempt on general walker's life that dog became or was ill. mr. surrey. yes; it was. this was reported to me. i do not know of firsthand knowledge. mr. jenner. i would prefer not to have your hearsay. you have no knowledge firsthand, however? mr. surrey. no; i do not. mr. jenner. unless, mr. chairman, you desire to pursue the hearsay---- the chairman. no, no. mr. jenner. continuing with exhibit no. , and looking at the footnotes, would you tell us whether that footnoting is accurate--a through g? mr. surrey. i am not familiar with gilbert street. mr. jenner. which is designated as g? mr. surrey. it very well could be gilbert street. i just don't know the names of those streets. yes; to the best of my knowledge that is accurate. mr. jenner. there is a tall building to the left, rather nice-looking. are you familiar with that building? mr. surrey. no; there are several new ones going right up in that area. i think that is the spa, or something. mr. jenner. i am referring, mr. chief justice, to the tall building with a lattice design immediately to the right of the letter "a". what did you think that was? mr. surrey. a new development in there called turtle creek, the spa, or something. i only know it from newspaper ads. mr. jenner. i see. was that building in that condition or being erected in the spring of ? mr. surrey. if that is the building i think of, it has just been finished a month or so now. mr. jenner. how long has it been under construction? mr. surrey. possibly a year, a year and a half. mr. jenner. does that photograph fairly depict and represent the area it shows as that area existed in the spring of ? mr. surrey. no; you are missing a jesuit high school which was here. mr. jenner. when you say was here, i have to identify the spot to which you are pointing. and the spot to which you are pointing is the open field area that is shown immediately to the right of the building we have identified, near which the letter "a" appears? mr. surrey. yes. mr. jenner. tell us about that. mr. surrey. that was the old jesuit high school, which has been torn down just recently. i believe just recently finished tearing it down. mr. jenner. all right. i will identify these other photographs rather quickly. in each instance, will you look at the photograph and tell us whether the sub-lettering is correct. i have now handed the witness commission exhibit no. . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. surrey. i believe that to be generally correct. this area of walker's residence here is difficult---- mr. jenner. it is some distance away, and the area of walker's residence to which the witness referred is a circle to which the letter "a" is affixed? mr. surrey. yes. mr. jenner. otherwise, this is an accurate representation of that area and as it existed in the spring of ? mr. surrey. again, the high school is--i don't believe that that jesuit high school was to the ground as it shows here, in the spring of . mr. jenner. i now call your attention to the building that appears immediately to the right of the circle. mr. surrey. that is, i believe, the same building that shows in the previous exhibit. mr. jenner. thank you. that is just exactly what i was going to ask you. all right. now, would you look at commission exhibit no. . (the documents referred to were marked commission exhibits nos. and for identification.) mr. jenner. are those footnotings correct? mr. surrey. yes, sir; i believe they are. mr. jenner. would you look at . mr. surrey. yes, sir; i believe they are substantially correct. mr. jenner. all right. for the purposes of the record, mr. reporter, commission exhibit no. also has a sticker on it marked commission exhibit no. . would you please note in the record we will not be using commission exhibit . it got on there by mistake. now, you just covered exhibit no. . now, exhibits nos. , . (the documents referred to were marked commission exhibits no. and , respectively, for identification.) mr. surrey. yes; that street previously mentioned was avondale. that is the street immediately to the west. mr. jenner. and it appears on commission exhibit no. ? mr. surrey. that is correct. mr. jenner. have you yet examined commission exhibit no. ? mr. surrey. no; i have not. mr. jenner. the witness is now examining commission exhibit no. . the chairman. very well. mr. surrey. i believe that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. all right. i will ask you a general question to be sure we have covered all of these. calling your attention to commission exhibits nos. , , , , , and , which are aerial photographs--are they aerial photographs of the vicinity of general walker's house? mr. surrey. yes; they are. mr. jenner. and do they, except for the high school matter which you have pointed out to us--do they represent fairly the area as it was in the spring of ? mr. surrey. yes, i would say that is generally correct. mr. jenner. all right, sir. now, the commission is interested, mr. surrey, in whether there are some open areas or fields near general walker's house in which an object such as a firearm or rifle could be buried. mr. surrey. directly across from in front of the house--of course, turtle creek boulevard, and across from turtle creek boulevard is turtle creek itself, with a lawn area coming up to the street of to yards in some places. mr. jenner. using the blank sheet of paper i hand you, would you just give us a diagram--a rough diagram of the area of general walker's house, so that i can locate the field about which you now speak? mr. surrey. it is not actually a field. mr. jenner. and we will mark that as commission exhibit no. . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. surrey. this is turtle creek. [witness draws.] mr. jenner. now, is turtle creek a street? mr. surrey. yes; it is a street, a boulevard. mr. jenner. all right. mr. surrey. mr. walker's residence is here. [witness draws.] mr. jenner. is the top of this sheet north or south, west or east? when i say that i refer to commission exhibit no. . mr. surrey. this is north. mr. jenner. all right. put an arrow and the letter "n" at that point. now, would you put south on the other side, and then east and west where they belong? mr. surrey. these are not exact. they are several points off. but generally. mr. jenner. you are just making a rough sketch, sir, for the purpose of helping with your testimony. you have now drawn in general walker's house. would you put in the word "walker"? now, having done that, you have now described an area--told us of an area where a firearm--a field where a firearm might be buried that is in the vicinity of general walker's home. would you indicate where that would be? mr. surrey. here is turtle creek. [witness draws.] mr. jenner. you are now drawing a wavy line. would you write in there "turtle creek." and that is a stream, is it? mr. surrey. yes. mr. jenner. does it always have water in it? mr. surrey. to my knowledge; yes, sir. mr. jenner. all right. mr. surrey. now, this area across turtle creek boulevard. mr. jenner. that is to the south of general walker's house. mr. surrey. and going down to the creek is a grassy, leafed, brushed, tree area. mr. jenner. it is not an open field? mr. surrey. no. mr. jenner. but it is an area in which a firearm could be buried? mr. surrey. it is down near the creek--there are rocks. (at this point, representative boggs withdrew from the hearing room.) mr. surrey. in addition to that--here is avondale, here is the doctor's residence. [witness draws.] mr. jenner. this is dr. jackson's residence you have now drawn? mr. surrey. yes. mr. jenner. would you please---- mr. surrey. and this entire block here is---- mr. jenner. you are pointing to the west? mr. surrey. yes. mr. jenner. along turtle creek drive? mr. surrey. yes. mr. jenner. would you put the word "drive" there. mr. surrey. it is boulevard. mr. jenner. all right. would you repeat your testimony in that connection? mr. surrey. another block of residences---- mr. jenner. to the west? mr. surrey. to the west. and then you come to that field where the new building is going up and the jesuit high school was. mr. jenner. and that is the new building you identified in one of the earlier exhibits, and the high school has now been torn down? mr. surrey. yes. mr. jenner. all right. and there was--in the spring of , was there a field there? mr. surrey. yes; there still is. mr. jenner. where a firearm could have been buried? mr. surrey. yes, sir. mr. jenner. we understand there is a church, a church house, near the walker home. am i correct? mr. surrey. that is correct. mr. jenner. would you locate it, please? mr. surrey. yes; directly to the east. [witness draws.] their driveway comes up between the walker house, into their parking lot [witness draws], and here is that back alley you showed me a picture of earlier. [witness draws.] mr. jenner. excuse me. for the purpose of the record, the witness has now drawn in what looks like a parking lot area, is that correct? mr. surrey. yes. mr. jenner. is that the church parking lot? mr. surrey. yes; it is. mr. jenner. and where is the church house itself located? mr. surrey. this entire area. i don't know about the shape of it. but it is in this area. mr. jenner. write the word "church" in there. [witness does so.] what church is that? mr. surrey. it is a mormon church. mr. jenner. and about how far distant from the walker house is the mormon church? mr. surrey. it is on the next lot--i would say feet, maybe. mr. jenner. what is there intervening, if anything, between the mormon church buildings and general walker's home? mr. surrey. in the way of a fence, you mean? mr. jenner. well, first; are there any buildings? mr. surrey. no. mr. jenner. or any sheds or anything of that character? mr. surrey. no. mr. jenner. are there any trees? mr. surrey. yes; there are trees. mr. jenner. is it heavily or lightly wooded? mr. surrey. lightly. mr. jenner. there is a fence? mr. surrey. yes. mr. jenner. a wooden fence? mr. surrey. a wooden fence--about -foot tall. mr. jenner. i see. is that a lattice fence or a solid fence? mr. surrey. along this side here it is a solid fence. mr. jenner. when you say this side, you are pointing to the driveway leading to turtle creek boulevard? mr. surrey. yes; the fence actually is here. [witness draws.] mr. jenner. you have now put--he is indicating the fence. and that is a lattice or slat fence? mr. surrey. that is a solid fence there. and then it is latticed along the alley. mr. jenner. which way does the front of general walker's house face--on turtle creek boulevard? mr. surrey. on turtle creek. mr. jenner. all right. that will be helpful to us. we will just set that exhibit aside for the moment. some of these photographs i am now about to show you--i now show you a photograph, commission exhibit no. , item no. . do you recognize that? mr. surrey. yes, i do. it is a photo of the back of general walker's home. mr. jenner. all right. now, returning to your plat, commission exhibit no. , is that the side of general walker's house that faces the church? mr. surrey. no. mr. jenner. it is the side--is it the side that faces dr. jackson's home? mr. surrey. no. mr. jenner. is it the side that faces onto or toward turtle creek boulevard? mr. surrey. no; it is not. mr. jenner. is it the side that faces toward the alley which you have drawn on commission exhibit no. ? mr. surrey. yes; it is. mr. jenner. fine. now, you will notice in that photograph an automobile, but no license plate, and there appears to be obliterated an area in which a license plate might have appeared on that car. now, first, you do see the automobile? mr. surrey. yes; i have seen this photo before. mr. barrett of the fbi in dallas brought this to my attention. mr. jenner. do you recognize the automobile? mr. surrey. not positively, but i think it belongs to mr. charles klihr. mr. jenner. and who is mr. charles klihr? mr. surrey. he is a volunteer worker of mr. walker's, also. mr. jenner. are you sufficiently familiar with mr. charles klihr's automobile--you already identified it---- mr. surrey. no; i did not identify it. i cannot do that, sir. mr. jenner. to the best of your ability is all i am suggesting, sir. mr. surrey. yes. mr. jenner. do you have a recollection as to whether there was a license plate or license plate fixture in or about the area in which the black spot on the automobile appears? mr. surrey. i have seen mr. klihr's automobile many times. i have not seen it without a license plate, which i think i would note if it were not there. mr. jenner. yes; but located at or about in the vicinity of that black spot? mr. surrey. i would say to the best of my knowledge; yes, sir. mr. jenner. thank you, sir. were you at general walker's home the evening of the attempted assassination, or attempt on his life? mr. surrey. yes, i was. after the shot. i was not there at the time. mr. jenner. how soon after the shot were you there? mr. surrey. about minutes. mr. jenner. how did you become aware that there had been an attempt on his life? mr. surrey. he called me on the telephone at my home. mr. jenner. and how far did you live from general walker's home? mr. surrey. about miles. mr. jenner. and you immediately drove over there? mr. surrey. yes. mr. jenner. what kind of an automobile do you own and drive? mr. surrey. a ford convertible. mr. jenner. and did you arrive at his home in that convertible? mr. surrey. yes, i did. mr. jenner. what time of the day or night was this? mr. surrey. this was about to : in the evening. mr. jenner. what day? i mean date. mr. surrey. april th. mr. jenner. what year? mr. surrey. . excuse me. this is , isn't it. mr. jenner. yes, sir. mr. surrey. so this would---- mr. jenner. was this a year ago? mr. surrey. it would be , yes. mr. jenner. i have marked a series of photographs as commission exhibits nos. through . (the photographs referred to were marked commission exhibits nos. through , respectively, for identification.) mr. jenner. these purport to be photographs of portions and places in--both inside and outside general walker's home relating to the incident in question. would you be good enough to take them seriatim, identify them by exhibit number---- mr. surrey. take them how? mr. jenner. seriatim, in series--commencing with commission exhibit . and tell us if you are familiar with the photograph and whether it depicts a portion of general walker's home, and, if so, what portion. mr. surrey. i don't know what this is here in the back yard, but outside of that it looks like a picture of the window facing towards the alley which the shot came through. mr. jenner. from the direction the shot came? mr. surrey. yes. mr. jenner. and the marring on the molding of the window is the point of the screen and the window through which the bullet came? mr. surrey. yes. mr. jenner. did you examine that that evening? mr. surrey. yes; i did. mr. jenner. did you see the breach in the casement which is depicted on commission exhibit no. ? mr. surrey. yes; i did. what is this in the back? do you happen to know? mr. jenner. no; i don't. but i think i can bring it out. these photographs, i think, were taken fairly recently. have you been at general walker's house in the last couple of weeks? mr. surrey. yes; i have. mr. jenner. and have you had occasion to notice whether or not any repair whatsoever has been made or was made with respect to the marring of the molding? mr. surrey. i don't believe it has. that looks like a stack of cardboard back there. i am not familiar with it. mr. jenner. yes; it looks like heavy asbestos, or some wood out in the yard. mr. surrey. i am not familiar with that. mr. jenner. now, look at exhibit no. . excuse me--the photograph exhibit no. represents that casement in its present condition? mr. surrey. yes, sir; to the best of my knowledge. mr. jenner. and also as it was when you saw it that night, april ? mr. surrey. no; the window was closed when i saw it that night. mr. jenner. but the breach in the molding is the same on this photograph as it was when you saw it that night? mr. surrey. yes, sir. mr. jenner. all right. now, the next photograph is exhibit no. , and purports to be a photograph taken from the outside of general walker's home with the camera pointed into his home. mr. surrey. that is correct. mr. jenner. and---- mr. surrey. it shows the same breach allegedly caused by a bullet---- mr. jenner. that is shown on exhibit ? mr. surrey. yes. mr. jenner. and in the case of exhibit no. , that photograph represents the present condition of that casement and that window and that screen, as well as it was when you saw it on the evening of april , ? insofar as the breach is concerned? mr. surrey. yes; i seem to recall more cobwebbing effect than it shows in the photograph. mr. jenner. exhibit no. purports to be a room in general walker's home, and a wall with a bullet hole shown in it. mr. surrey. yes, sir. mr. jenner. do you recognize that room? mr. surrey. yes; i do. mr. jenner. and is that a picture of one of the rooms in general walker's home? mr. surrey. yes; it is. mr. jenner. where is it with respect to the room shown in commission exhibit no. ? mr. surrey. it is the same room. mr. jenner. the same room? mr. surrey. yes; all this material has been turned around, from that night. mr. jenner. you are referring in your last comment to commission exhibit no. , some pamphlet materials you see shown in that photograph? mr. surrey. yes. mr. jenner. now, turning your attention to commission exhibit no. , does the wall that is shown on that exhibit face the casement window shown on exhibit no. , or is that the reverse side? mr. surrey. it is the other wall, the other side of the room from the window. mr. jenner. is that the wall in which the bullet entered, or the wall, the side of the wall from which the bullet exited? mr. surrey. that is the side of the wall that it entered. mr. jenner. all right. then i show you commission exhibit no. . mr. surrey. yes; this is the next room now where the bullet exited. mr. jenner. now, taking exhibits nos. and , am i correct, sir, that exhibit no. shows the wall on the entry side of the bullet, and exhibit no. is the reverse side of the wall shown on commission exhibit no. ? mr. surrey. that is correct. mr. jenner. in other words, the side of the wall that the bullet exited? mr. surrey. that is correct. now, this picture was taken at the time, or soon thereafter, because this material was in this position. (at this point, senator cooper withdrew from the hearing room.) mr. jenner. all right, sir. you are able to say, from your familiarity with the condition of matters on the evening of april , , that both commission exhibits---- mr. surrey. no; that one i don't know. mr. jenner. that commission exhibit no. depicts the condition of that room, which is the room to the reverse side of commission exhibit no. , as it was the evening of april , . mr. surrey. substantially the same; yes. mr. jenner. and even including the boxes and packages of material? mr. surrey. that is correct. mr. jenner. you will notice in substantially the center of that exhibit a rupture appears to be in the wall. was that in fact a rupture? mr. surrey. yes; it was. that is where the bullet came out of the wall, and when the police came they found the bullet on top of these packages. mr. jenner. on top of the packages shown on commission exhibit no. . i show you exhibit no. , which appears to be a photograph of a fence, lattice fence. are you familiar with that? mr. surrey. i believe it is the same type of thing as is in back of walker's home, in the alleyway. mr. jenner. is it not in fact a picture of the fence that is--surrounds to the rear general walker's home? mr. surrey. i don't know. it is the same type, it looks the same. mr. jenner. it looks the same to you? mr. surrey. yes. mr. jenner. when you made your diagram, exhibit no. , you drew a wavy line along the alley, and i think you said that was a lattice fence. mr. surrey. yes; i drew it too far. this is jackson's back yard. mr. jenner. well, that is all right. the lattice fence you identified---- mr. surrey. is of the same type and construction. mr. jenner. as shown on exhibit no. ? mr. surrey. yes. mr. jenner. all right, sir. thank you. is the area depicted on commission exhibit no. familiar to you? mr. surrey. it looks like a picture taken from the top of that lattice fence towards the back of walker's home. mr. jenner. next is commission exhibit no. , which is a photograph of a tire imprint. on the evening of april or the next day, april , when it was light, did you tour around general walker's home with him or without him? there was a search made to see---- mr. surrey. yes; there was. mr. jenner. to find some identification in the way of automobile tire impressions? mr. surrey. it is my impression that the police were looking primarily for a casing from a shell. i did not see them take any---- mr. jenner. so that the particular portion of the walker vicinity shown on commission exhibit no. is not familiar to you? mr. surrey. i wouldn't know where it was in the area. mr. jenner. yes, sir. the chairman. those have all been formally introduced, mr. jenner? mr. jenner. no; they have not, mr. chief justice. if it suits your convenience i was going to offer all exhibits at once, so i don't overlook any. the chairman. yes; very well. mr. jenner. thank you. some of the exhibits the witness has identified have already been introduced. they were exhibited to marina oswald. the chairman. yes; i recall. mr. jenner. would you help us, also--i hand you a map of dallas, which we will mark commission exhibit no. --or i should correct myself--i hand you what purports to be a map of dallas. there is indicated by brush pencil a cross in the center of that map as representing the area of the residence of maj. gen. edwin a. walker, resigned, at turtle creek boulevard in dallas. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. surrey. yes; that is correct. that is the area. mr. jenner. that is a scale map of dallas that appears to have been obtained from the dallas transit co. in dallas, tex. mr. surrey. yes. mr. jenner. now, you received a telephone call from general walker? mr. surrey. yes, sir. mr. jenner. the evening of april . it was about o'clock? please try to fix that time as accurately as you can. mr. surrey. i would say it was closer to : . mr. jenner. and you arrived minutes later? mr. surrey. to minutes later. mr. jenner. now, would you very carefully, calling on your most accurate recollection, recite for us--you came to the door, you entered, what did you see, who was there, and what was said to you by anyone, if anyone was there--just the course of events as best you are able to recall them that evening. and i will try not to interrupt you. mr. surrey. when i pulled--i pulled up in front on turtle creek, got out of my car. a police car was there. mr. jenner. was there anything in addition to a police car? mr. surrey. no. mr. jenner. you pulled your car up on turtle creek boulevard? mr. surrey. behind the police car. mr. jenner. would you be good enough, when you refer to turtle creek boulevard, to say boulevard, because we have talked about turtle creek, a stream. mr. surrey. turtle creek boulevard. mr. jenner. there was one squad car there at that time? mr. surrey. yes; just as i was getting out of the car, another squad car came up. mr. jenner. turning to your plat, would you put an "x" with a circle where you drove up? the witness has now done that. all right. now, you are on turtle creek boulevard. then what did you do? you parked? mr. surrey. i parked and got out of my automobile, and walked up the front walkway into the house. mr. jenner. i see. all right. mr. surrey. there were several policemen in the house, just arriving. mr. walker was sitting at his desk in this back room. mr. jenner. all right. now it will be helpful to the commission--let's take this blank sheet of paper--you draw us a floor plan, will you please, of general walker's home, and we will mark that commission exhibit no. , so as to assist you in telling us what you did. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. surrey. this is the ground floor. mr. jenner. all right. now, first let's locate the house. it is a rectangle that you have drawn. is the rectangle facing the same as the rectangle marked "walker" on commission exhibit no. ? mr. surrey. yes; it is. mr. jenner. so that the lower portion is east? mr. surrey. do we need these directions exactly, because that turtle creek boulevard winds all around. mr. jenner. all i want to do is tie it up with commission exhibit no. . mr. surrey. yes; it is the same direction. mr. jenner. realizing that you have that problem of obliqueness, but relating it solely to commission exhibit no. , the foot of commission exhibit no. represents an easterly direction, correct? mr. surrey. yes. mr. jenner. and the top a westerly direction. and the right, northerly, and the left, southerly. all right. now, we have it located. which is the doorway into general walker's home? mr. surrey. this is the--this is the front door. [witness draws.] mr. jenner. you have now put two oblique lines on the line facing southerly. mr. surrey. that is correct. mr. jenner. and then as you enter, there is a long hallway. mr. surrey. yes. mr. jenner. and which is the rear of the house towards the alley? mr. surrey. toward the north. mr. jenner. all right. now, in what room, if any of those rooms on the first floor, was general walker the night of april , , when this incident occurred, as you learned when you reached there? mr. surrey. his desk was positioned right there. mr. jenner. you have now drawn a small but rather elongated rectangle, which appears to be opposite two lines you have drawn which i take it represents a window. mr. surrey. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and from what you learned from general walker on that occasion in the presence of the policemen, was he seated at the desk? mr. surrey. he was seated at his desk. mr. jenner. his back to the window you have drawn, or facing the window? mr. surrey. to the window. mr. jenner. so he was facing to the window? mr. surrey. no; his back was to the window. mr. jenner. he was facing away from the window? mr. surrey. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and you have drawn a little circle by the figure representing a desk, indicating where general walker was seated? mr. surrey. yes. mr. jenner. and facing westerly? mr. surrey. yes. mr. jenner. now, locate for us, put a circle with a cross, the wall, the side of the wall indicated by commission exhibit no. . mr. surrey. it is right here, sir. [witness draws.] mr. jenner. all right. now, that is shown, for the purpose of the record, to the left of the blank circle which the witness drew to show general walker sitting at his desk. and that area that is shown on--the wall shown on commission exhibit no. , i take it, is precisely the other side. mr. surrey. the other side. mr. jenner. you have done that by showing an area? mr. surrey. yes, sir. mr. jenner. all right. then we have that located. did general walker in your presence relate what occurred? mr. surrey. yes. mr. jenner. tell us what he said about how it occurred, when he became aware of it? mr. surrey. i walked in the front door, and there were several policemen standing around in various areas. i walked in through here. mr. jenner. when you say "through here" [witness draws two lines to represent door.]---- mr. surrey. through the front---- mr. jenner. you came in from the south, the front, and you went down the hallway? mr. surrey. it is not really a hallway. it is mostly glass doors here. and i walked through those glass doors. mr. jenner. you have put three strikes on your sketch. what is that? mr. surrey. those are glass doors. mr. jenner. you walked through the glass doorway. you walked into the room, the wall of which is shown on commission exhibit no. . correct? mr. surrey. that is right. mr. jenner. all right. mr. surrey. and i went right through this room. mr. jenner. into the room in which general walker's desk is located? mr. surrey. yes. mr. jenner. the wall of which on that side appears shown on commission exhibit no. ? mr. surrey. that is correct. mr. jenner. all right. mr. surrey. the general was sitting at his desk. mr. jenner. when you arrived? mr. surrey. when i arrived. mr. jenner. was he facing---- mr. surrey. he was---- mr. jenner. westerly? mr. surrey. yes, talking to a policeman in uniform. and i walked in and i said, "what happened? what's going on?" and he pointed to this hole in the wall. mr. jenner. shown on commission exhibit no. ? mr. surrey. yes. and i facetiously said, "oh, you found a bug." mr. jenner. would you explain your facetious remark? i don't get the fact that it is facetious. mr. surrey. well, actually, it may not be. it is a common joke around the general's house that there may be microphones. mr. jenner. that kind of a bug? mr. surrey. yes. mr. jenner. that is, you saw the hole in the wall and you remarked facetiously that he had discovered the house had been bugged by an electronic device? mr. surrey. yes; and, therefore, had chopped a hole in the wall. and he said, "no; i have been shot at." and he pointed to the hole in the window. mr. jenner. which is shown on commission exhibits nos. and ? mr. surrey. that is correct. except the window was closed at this time--both casements were together. mr. jenner. yes; and there is a screen on that window? mr. surrey. i believe there is. mr. jenner. all right. mr. surrey. and then---- mr. jenner. excuse me, sir. that would be the window which is the lower of the two sets of strikes appearing on the northerly line of your exhibit no. . mr. surrey. yes. i will mark it with an "a" and a circle. mr. jenner. good. mr. surrey. and then a policeman asked him a question, and i noticed that his arm was bleeding. mr. jenner. general walker's arm? mr. surrey. general walker's arm, was bleeding in four or five places. mr. jenner. how was he dressed? mr. surrey. in a dress shirt of a color, as i recall, but it was not a sport shirt--and slacks. mr. jenner. it was not a uniform of any character? mr. surrey. no; and without a tie. mr. jenner. short sleeved or long sleeved? mr. surrey. long sleeved, rolled up. mr. jenner. and his right arm, was it? mr. surrey. his right arm, yes; on his forearm. and---- mr. jenner. was he bleeding profusely? mr. surrey. no. and he said "the jacket of the bullet must have come apart when it went through the window." and he brushed plaster--i assume it came from this wall--out of his hair, which was in his hair, also. mr. jenner. what color hair does general walker have? mr. surrey. brown; a dark brown. mr. jenner. he has a fairly full head of hair, does he? mr. surrey. yes. mr. jenner. and plaster and that sort of thing would be quite apparent, would it, to anyone who saw it in his hair? mr. surrey. yes. mr. jenner. and you noticed it? mr. surrey. yes. mr. jenner. and you noticed him brushing plaster out of his hair? mr. surrey. yes. mr. jenner. now, that leads me to ask you this, mr. surrey: that bullet hole is how high from the floor? i am showing you now commission exhibit no. . mr. surrey. you mean how high is the hole---- mr. jenner. from the floor. mr. surrey. from the floor? well, the police went into the next room and so did i, and sighted through the hole in the wall to the window. mr. jenner. yes, sir. mr. surrey. and when walker sat down at his desk, it went right through his head. mr. jenner. so he was seated on a chair substantially the height of the one you are seated on? mr. surrey. yes, and he is approximately a little taller than i am. mr. jenner. he is a little taller than you are. so that would be about , - / feet. tell the commission the distance from the wall, the point at which you have marked an "x" with a circle, and the place at which general walker's chair was located. mr. surrey. i would say inches. mr. jenner. he was that close? mr. surrey. to the wall there; yes, sir. mr. jenner. so that the representation you have made on commission exhibit no. is distorted? mr. surrey. yes; it is. the desk was right up against the wall, and he was seated in the middle of the desk. mr. jenner. his chair was much closer to the wall than would appear to have been as you have roughly diagramed on exhibit no. ? mr. surrey. that is correct. mr. jenner. all right. in other words, he was close enough to the wall when seated at that chair so that when a bullet penetrating the plaster wall could have splattered plaster into his hair? mr. surrey. yes, sir. mr. jenner. all right. proceed, sir. mr. surrey. so i went over and looked at his arm, and there was a piece of metal in one particular spot in his arm, that i noticed, in addition to the other scratches, and i went looking for some first aid equipment and found tweezers upstairs, and came back downstairs and picked that piece of metal and two others out of his right forearm. mr. jenner. and what was done with those pieces of metal? mr. surrey. they were--i believe the police took them. mr. jenner. but you recall that you, in fact, yourself took the pieces of metal from general walker's right forearm? mr. surrey. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and--all right. go ahead, sir. mr. surrey. well, then it became just a matter of the police questioning the general and myself. i don't recall which detective or which policemen and myself went out in the back and looked in the back area. mr. jenner. is that what you did next, after you took the metal out of general walker's forearm? mr. surrey. yes. mr. jenner. you immediately went out of the house---- mr. surrey. not immediately; no. we talked. i would say within or minutes. mr. jenner. but you did not go into any other room? that is what i am getting at first. you went outside first? mr. surrey. i don't recall if we went in the other room then or later on. mr. jenner. when you say the other room, it is the room opposite the one and to the left of the one shown on your diagram---- mr. surrey. as i recall, i merely looked around the separation here when they said that the bullet came clear through into the other room. mr. jenner. who said that? mr. surrey. one of the policemen. mr. jenner. and did you go around and look then? mr. surrey. i just looked around the doorway; yes. mr. jenner. what did you find when you looked around--what did you see? mr. surrey. i saw these books stacked, as shown in this picture. mr. jenner. identify the picture, please. mr. surrey. exhibit no. . mr. jenner. had--you mentioned a bullet as having been found. mr. surrey. yes, the policeman said he had found that bullet, on top of the packages. mr. jenner. shown in exhibit no. ? mr. surrey. yes. mr. jenner. was that portion of the bullet exhibited to you on that occasion? mr. surrey. no. mr. jenner. you did not see it? mr. surrey. no. mr. jenner. was the statement that the bullet had been found on the opposite side of that wall made in the presence of general walker? mr. surrey. yes. mr. jenner. what did general walker say when that statement was made in his presence, if anything? mr. surrey. i don't recall that he made any statement. mr. jenner. did he say anything about where the spent bullet had been found? mr. surrey. not at that time, no. not to me. mr. jenner. well, did he say it to an officer in your presence? mr. surrey. not that i recall. mr. jenner. was it uttered by him at all in your presence on that evening? mr. surrey. not that i recall. mr. jenner. that is, that the spent bullet had been found on the opposite side of the wall next to which he had been sitting? mr. surrey. no; i think the policeman said it, and that is all that was said. mr. jenner. but it was said in general walker's presence? mr. surrey. yes; it was. mr. jenner. what did the policeman say? mr. surrey. he said the bullet went clean through the wall and they found it laying on the packages in the other room. mr. jenner. did he say they found it or "i found it"? mr. surrey. he said, "i found it" as i recall. mr. jenner. proceed in your chronology, please. mr. surrey. that is all there was to it. then he started getting calls from newsmen, and newsmen coming to the door. mr. jenner. first, you went out and looked around the premises. mr. surrey. yes; but it was quite dark at this time, and they said, "we will come back in the morning." mr. jenner. i should have asked you this. perhaps i just assumed it. was it dark when you arrived at general walker's home? mr. surrey. yes; it was. mr. jenner. when does it get dark in dallas, tex., in this area in the spring? mr. surrey. i would say . mr. jenner. do you have daylight saving time in dallas? mr. surrey. no; we don't. mr. jenner. and you are on what time? mr. surrey. central standard. mr. jenner. central standard time? mr. surrey. yes. mr. jenner. well---- mr. surrey. it is hours from here. the chairman. two hours from here when we have daylight savings. mr. surrey. you have daylight saving now? the chairman. yes. mr. jenner. only hour then. mr. surrey. yes, sir. mr. jenner. after looking around, you say newspapermen began to come. mr. surrey. that is right. mr. jenner. and interview general walker? mr. surrey. yes. mr. jenner. in your presence? mr. surrey. yes. mr. jenner. and in the presence of the policemen? mr. surrey. yes. mr. jenner. when did you leave general walker's home that night? mr. surrey. i stayed that night. mr. jenner. did you hear general walker being interviewed? mr. surrey. yes. mr. jenner. what did he say about what had occurred, if anything? mr. surrey. he said, "somebody took a shot at me." this is the general tenor of the interviews as to what happened, and he said, "somebody took a shot at me." i guess--"that is the closest i have ever been missed in years of military service." mr. jenner. did he say anything about whether he was seated--whether he had been moving about? mr. surrey. no; he said he had been seated at his desk when it happened. working on his income tax. mr. jenner. now, mr. surrey, was there an occasion preceding october--april , , that you noticed an automobile and some people in the automobile in and about general walker's premises? mr. surrey. yes; that was nights before, on monday evening. mr. jenner. that would be april ? mr. surrey. yes. mr. jenner. i mean april , i am sorry. mr. surrey. april ; yes, sir. mr. jenner. what time? mr. surrey. about : to . i am not sure about what time it was. mr. jenner. i take it, then, it was dark? mr. surrey. yes; it was. mr. jenner. and tell the commission what led up to that, what you said, and what you did. this incident that you have in mind. mr. surrey. i was coming from my home, came down turtle creek boulevard, passed in front of the general's house, and took a right-hand turn on avondale, to come up to the alley. mr. jenner. have we put avondale into your plat? you are now turning to commission exhibit no. . [witness draws.] mr. surrey. the normal route into the parking lot behind the general's house---- mr. jenner. he does have a parking lot? mr. surrey. yes; this is the parking area back in here. mr. jenner. now, would you crossline that, so we know it is the parking lot? [witness draws.] that is fine. mr. surrey. i came up turtle creek boulevard and turned right on avondale prior to turning again up the alleyway, to go into the parking lot in back of general walker's house. and i noticed a car parked feet--about yards actually---- mr. jenner. you have now drawn a rectangle on the edge of the sheet of paper, exhibit no. , marked with the letter "n." would you write the word "car" in there? the chairman. what is this designed to establish, mr. jenner? we are getting a little afield, it seems to me. mr. jenner. mr. surrey, mr. chief justice, was interviewed and related this particular incident, and we want to dissipate any possibility--i don't want to put it this way---- the chairman. if it has some relevancy, all right. but let's don't take too long, because it is getting to be quite collateral. go right ahead. mr. surrey. well, the gist of the matter is that two nights before the assassination attempt, i saw two men around the house peeking in windows and so forth, and reported this to the general the following morning, and he, in turn, reported it to the police on tuesday, and it was wednesday night that he was shot at. so that is really the gist of the whole thing. the chairman. all right. mr. jenner. i show you an exhibit marked garner exhibit no. . at anytime prior to april , , were you familiar with the person who is shown on garner exhibit no. ? mr. surrey. no. mr. jenner. when i say familiar, i mean did you know of or had you seen consciously a person with that physiognomy and physical appearance? mr. surrey. no; i have not. mr. jenner. that is a side view. i show you commission exhibit no. . the man in the center--had you prior to april , , ever seen a man with that physiognomy, facial showing, and body? mr. surrey. no. mr. jenner. all right, sir. i take it, then--i ask you this question. neither of the two men that you saw in that automobile on the th of april , at least to your present recollection, was the man shown on garner exhibit no. , and commission exhibit no. ? mr. surrey. i don't believe either of them was. mr. jenner. all right. the chairman. may i ask--is this what you spoke of as the book? mr. surrey. yes, sir. the chairman. i notice on here that there is no price of any kind. you say you sold this for $ ? mr. surrey. that was an afterthought. the original intent was not a sale. the chairman. was it ever advertised to the public as for sale from $ ? mr. surrey. yes. the chairman. where was it advertised? mr. surrey. in just a flier that we included with some materials we were mailing out. the chairman. i see. i would like to ask you if you were present when--at the time that they had--that there was the demonstration against ambassador adlai stevenson? mr. surrey. no; i was not. the chairman. did you have anything to do with that demonstration? mr. surrey. no, sir. the chairman. were you present when the demonstration was against then vice president johnson in dallas? mr. surrey. no, sir. the chairman. did you have anything to do with that? mr. surrey. no, sir. mr. jenner. mr. chief justice, we have marked the book as commission exhibit no. . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. jenner. would you please examine it? you need no more than just to look at it, so you will be able to testify that that is a true and correct copy of the book you have testified about, published by eagle publishing co., which contains on its reverse cover side the letter to which you made reference. mr. surrey. yes, sir; it is. the chairman. what did it cost you to publish that? mr. surrey. it came to $ . and some cents. in a limited quantity-- , . the chairman. do you now propose to offer all of the exhibits? mr. jenner. yes; i have three more fbi photos, and then i will have completed. the chairman. very well. mr. jenner. mr. surrey, i show you three more photographs which are identified first as commission exhibit no. . would you read the material that appears on the reverse side of that first, please? (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. jenner. looking now at the face of the photograph, commission exhibit no. , does--do the inscriptions on the reverse side correctly describe that area of general walker's home and the mormon church references? mr. surrey. yes; they do. mr. jenner. you are familiar with that area? mr. surrey. yes; i am. jenner. and its physical appearance, except for the foliage on the trees, is as that area looked on the night of april , ? is that correct? mr. surrey. that is correct. mr. jenner. i hand you commission exhibit no. . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. jenner. read the inscription on the reverse side, please. you are familiar with that area shown on the photograph? mr. surrey. yes; i am. mr. jenner. do the descriptions on the reverse side of the photograph correctly describe that area? mr. surrey. with the exception that i do not know these cars and so forth. mr. jenner. i am talking about the area. mr. surrey. the physical area; yes, they do. mr. jenner. and that area looks the same today as it did on the evening of april , or the day of april , ? mr. surrey. yes, sir. mr. jenner. i now hand you the last of these, commission exhibit no. , and ask you first to read the inscription and then examine the photograph. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. surrey. yes, sir; these are substantially correct. mr. jenner. as of today, as well as as of april , ? mr. surrey. yes, sir. mr. jenner. all right. now, mr. chief justice, i offer in evidence the various exhibits which we have identified in the record with the exhibit numbers, and ask that the exhibits take the exhibit numbers i recited in each instance as to each exhibit, being exhibits nos. through and through . the chairman. they may all be admitted under those numbers. (the documents heretofore marked commission exhibits nos. through and through were received in evidence.) mr. jenner. that includes, mr. chief justice, the diagrams which the witness has prepared for us. the chairman. yes. mr. jenner. as i reported to you, mr. chief justice, the file on the walker incident reached us about minutes before we opened this morning. i think i have covered everything. could i have the privilege of minutes to take a look? the chairman. yes. mr. jenner. i will do it very quickly. the chairman. yes. mr. jenner. who is mr. coleman? do you know a man by that name? mr. surrey. not personally. mr. jenner. walker kirk coleman. mr. surrey. as i just read on the back of your exhibit, he is the boy that reported seeing several automobiles at the time of the assassination. mr. jenner. that is immaterial to this issue. you have never seen either of the two men you have mentioned before or since the occasion you saw that automobile with the two men in it on the evening of april , ? mr. surrey. not to my knowledge. i never was very close to them. mr. jenner. were you able to--what kind of an automobile was it, do you know? mr. surrey. it was a ford, a new ford at that time. mr. jenner. sedan? mr. surrey. four-door sedan. mr. jenner. and it was new? mr. surrey. yes. mr. jenner. to your knowledge, have you ever seen that automobile before or since? mr. surrey. no, sir. mr. jenner. what color was it, if you noticed? mr. surrey. it was either a dark brown or a maroon. mr. jenner. you followed it awhile and then gave up the chase? mr. surrey. that is correct. actually, they made a turn which--i am familiar with downtown dallas--and they made a turn which would indicate they were doubling back or not going in a straight direction. and i thought perhaps i had been spotted in my convertible. so i left them there. mr. jenner. i will close, mr. chief justice, by asking the witness--was the mormon church in session? had there been---- mr. surrey. there had been services. mr. jenner. the evening of april ? mr. surrey. they were still dispersing. mr. jenner. when you arrived at approximately : in the evening of april , were people still leaving the mormon church? mr. surrey. yes; they were. mr. jenner. i have no more questions. the chairman. that will be all, mr. surrey. you may be excused now. the commission is adjourned. (whereupon, at : p.m., the president's commission recessed.) _thursday, june , _ testimony of james j. rowley and robert carswell the president's commission met at a.m., on june , , at maryland avenue ne., washington, d.c. present were chief justice earl warren, chairman; senator john sherman cooper, representative hale boggs, representative gerald r. ford, and allen w. dulles, members. also present were j. lee rankin, general counsel; and samuel a. stern, assistant counsel. testimony of james j. rowley (members present at this point: chief justice earl warren.) the chairman. the commission will come to order. chief, it is our procedure to read a little statement as to the purpose of the meeting, for the benefit of the witness. chief rowley will be asked to testify with respect to the protective measures taken by the secret service in dallas, changes in such measures made as a result of the dallas experience, and with regard to the investigation of the assassination and any information he may have respecting the assassination of the president. would you raise your right hand and be sworn? you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before the commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. rowley. i do. the chairman. will you be seated, please. mr. rankin will conduct the examination. mr. rankin. mr. chief justice, before starting the examination, i would like to make a brief statement for your benefit and for the benefit of the commission, of the problems that are probably going to develop in this area with regard to the security of the country, and a suggestion about how we might handle them as we proceed with the witness. i have suggested to chief rowley that as he moves along in his testimony he might have various matters that he would think should not be on the record because of the security of the country, and if he would just suggest that, when he came to that point, and say specifically that it did involve the security of the country, then we would proceed to go off the record, if it was satisfactory to the commission, and consider those questions off the record. and then return to the record as soon as we had completed those security matters. would that be satisfactory? the chairman. i think that is an appropriate way to proceed. mr. rankin. chief rowley, will you state your name and address for the record, please? mr. rowley. james j. rowley, rittenhouse street nw., washington, d.c. mr. rankin. do you have an official position with the government? mr. rowley. i have, as chief of the u.s. secret service. mr. rankin. how long have you occupied that position? mr. rowley. since september , . mr. rankin. what is the nature of the duties of that position? mr. rowley. the nature of the duties is the general overall supervision of the activities of the secret service. mr. rankin. and, in a general way, what is the official responsibility under the statutes of the united states of the secret service? mr. rowley. well, we are responsible under title , section , to investigate all violations that affect the currency, securities, and coinage of the united states. that involves government bonds, government checks, and such other functions and duties as are authorized by law, subject to the direction of the secretary of the treasury. in addition, we have the responsibility of the protection of the president, members of his immediate family, the vice president, president-elect, vice president-elect, and the former president for a reasonable period of time as he leaves office. mr. rankin. will you please tell us what experience you had with the secret service prior to the time that you became chief. mr. rowley. i was in charge of the white house detail from to . mr. rankin. now, will you tell us briefly the training that you had in regard to government service? mr. rowley. i first entered the government as a member of the fbi in , and spent a year with the fbi, after which i went back to new york for a period of months. i entered the secret service on september , . i spent time in criminal investigation in the new york city office, and the utica office of secret service and in april of , i was assigned to washington, eventually to the white house detail. (at this point, mr. dulles entered the hearing room.) mr. rowley. i served as a member of the white house detail, as an agent on a shift, as an assistant agent in charge, agent in charge of the shift, and advance man, in preparing for presidential visits, both domestically and abroad. mr. rankin. what educational training did you have? mr. rowley. i had years of college toward a b.s., then i was graduated from law school, and secured a master's degree in law. mr. rankin. was one of the duties of your position as chief of the service to have general supervision over the trip of president kennedy and vice president johnson to dallas around november , ? mr. rowley. well, that would be part of my job--the general supervision of the trip. the actual direct supervision would have been under the jurisdiction of mr. behn, who was in charge of the white house detail. mr. rankin. could you describe briefly the nature of mr. behn's responsibilities in that work? mr. rowley. well, it would have been, as mine was in the period i was there, that he was responsible for developing all arrangements with the members of the white house staff, designating the members of the detail to develop advance work, assigning agents to the various shifts, directing their training as it applied to the white house detail, and participating in any event that he thought would be necessary in connection with his work at the white house. mr. rankin. did you become familiar with what did happen on that trip, in your position as chief? mr. rowley. yes; i was first informed while addressing a graduating class of our secret service school on that day. i was summoned by mr. behn to the white house, at which time he told me that the president had been shot. he was then at the hospital, and subsequently we were notified that the president had died; that the vice president would take the oath of office in the airplane at love field. in the meantime, i asked my deputy, who was in his office while i was at the white house, to arrange with the immigration service to close the border, texas being in close proximity to the border. there might have been a conspiracy or something, we didn't want to take any chances. and then i immediately dispatched an inspector from my staff to the capitol to protect the speaker, and directed the other activities as we got the information from dallas. mr. rankin. did you learn in connection with the trip when the assassination occurred that certain of the secret service agents had been in the press club and what is called the cellar, at fort worth, the night before? mr. rowley. well, that came to my attention through a broadcast that mr. pearson made, that the agents were inebriated the night before at the fort worth press club. i immediately dispatched inspector mccann to fort worth to investigate the report, and to interview the agents. mr. rankin. what did you learn? mr. rowley. i learned that there were nine agents involved at the press club. and i might say this--the agents on duty throughout that day had no opportunity to eat. when they arrived at fort worth, they were informed that there was a buffet to be served at the fort worth club. this is what i ascertained in personal interviews. upon going over there, they learned there was no buffet, and some of them stayed for a drink. three, i think, had one scotch, and others had two or three beers. they were in and out--from the time they arrived, i would say roughly around : , until the place closed at o'clock. now, after that some of them went to the cellar. this is a place that does not serve alcoholic beverages. they went there primarily, i think, out of curiosity, because this was some kind of a beatnik place where someone gets up and recites, or plays the guitar. mr. rankin. did you learn whether or not there were any violations of the regulations of the secret service by these men? mr. rowley. yes; there was a violation. at that time there was a section in our manual in effect that said that during---- mr. rankin. will you give us first the number? mr. rowley. section . mr. rankin. is that chapter , page ? mr. rowley. chapter , page ; yes, sir. mr. rankin. now, will you tell the commission about what the regulation was? mr. rowley. "the use of liquor. employees are strictly enjoined to refrain from the use of intoxicating liquor during the hours they are officially employed at their post of duty or when they may reasonably expect that they may be called upon to perform an official duty." the one that applies here--"however, all members of the white house detail and special agents cooperating with them on presidential and similar protective assignments are considered to be subject to call for official duty at any time while in travel status. therefore, the use of intoxicating liquor of any kind, including beer and wine, by members of the white house detail and special agents cooperating with them or by special agents on similar assignments, while they are in a travel status, is prohibited." mr. rankin. can you tell the commission how many men were involved in these trips to the press club and the cellar, where these things were done? mr. rowley. there were men involved at the press club, and there were men involved at the cellar. mr. rankin. now, how many men, of those men, were in the presidential motorcade on the day of the assassination? mr. rowley. four--four men were in the followup car. the chairman. who were they? mr. rankin. do you know their names? mr. rowley. yes; landis, hill, ready, and bennett. mr. rankin. did you make any investigation to determine whether or not their violation of the secret service regulations had anything to do with the assassination of the president? mr. rowley. yes. they performed their duties from the time they departed in the followup car from love field until the point of the tragedy in a most satisfactory manner. there was nothing deficient in their actions or their alertness. they went through the heaviest part of downtown dallas, through the crowds, and performed in an exemplary manner. mr. rankin. how do you know that? mr. rowley. from the reports that i got from their superiors. mr. rankin. in the work that you did with the white house detail before you became chief of the secret service, did you know the various responsibilities of the members of the white house detail? mr. rowley. yes, sir. mr. rankin. did you ever participate in such motorcades yourself? mr. rowley. i have; yes, sir. mr. rankin. how much? mr. rowley. well, i have participated, in rough numbers, over a period of years--roughly, maybe, a thousand or more. mr. rankin. will you briefly describe the functions of the secret service agents in connection with the president's car? the chairman. have you finished this other matter? mr. rankin. no; i just wanted to---- the chairman. all right. go right ahead. mr. rowley. when the president's car leaves the airport or a railroad station or any other location, the agents accompany him to the car and stand to the right and left, in the same order as their designated positions on the followup car, and screen him. and then the car moves out, slowly, because the rest of the cars have to have an opportunity to follow in the motorcade, so that none lingers behind, or is left behind. and then the agent in the lead car determines that the motorcade is intact and is moving, then he steps up his speed, which is a cue to the presidential driver to step up his speed, and then they go at a speed consistent with the crowd that is there, and so forth. now, upon leaving the airport, if there is a huge crowd there, the men are still on the ground running on the right and left side of the president, both rear and front of the vehicle. after they get out of the crowd, then the men in the front beside the presidential vehicle drop back and take their positions in the followup car. this is so that they are not in the way of the men running on the right and left rear. they move back last and have a clear opportunity to jump onboard the followup car in the event the speed of the motorcade is stepped up. when the motorcade comes to intersections or turns which are always vulnerable points, in that if you make a right turn, that is the closest point for someone to come out, the agents on the right side before reaching that point, will jump off, to be available alongside the president's car in the event someone darts out with some malicious plan. there have also been times when, innocently, ladies and young people will come out to throw a bouquet of flowers. and then if there is a crowd that is sparse, they return to their position in the followup car. now, when they come into a big crowd, they take it on foot, and at a little jog, if necessary. in some instances, if the crowd continues for a prolonged distance, the agents work together. in other words, there are rear steps on the right and left rear of the presidential car with handrails. these have two purposes. one, for agents to ride on and to screen the president from anything from above; the second, in a situation like this, to keep an additional man available in case of trouble, and also to alternate with the men to the right rear of the president, who are jogging along warding off the crowd. mr. rankin. now, what positions did the four men that you referred to that were involved in the press club and the cellar matter occupy on the day of the assassination? mr. rowley. well, mr. ready occupied the right front, mr. landis to his rear---- mr. rankin. what do you mean by right front? mr. rowley. right front running board position of the followup car. it was his responsibility or duty to jump off in crowds and to take the position at the right rear of the president's car. mr. landis, if necessary, to jump off if the occasion demanded and take the right front of the president's car. mr. hill was on the left front running board of the followup car, and his responsibility was at the rear of the president's car. his position was assigned there because he was in charge of the first lady's detail, and she was seated on the left side. and mr. mcintyre was to his rear on the left running board. so his assignment would have been up to the left front of the president's car. mr. bennett was in the rear seat of the followup car. mr. rankin. now, how can you tell that the fact that they were out as they were the night before and violated the regulations, had nothing to do with the assassination? mr. rowley. well, based on the reports of my investigating agents and the facts as to how they performed at the time of the tragedy. mr. hill, who was on the left side, responded immediately--as he looked toward the presidential car, being on the left side, he scanned from left to right, and when he saw there was something happening to the president following a noise, he immediately jumped from his position to get aboard from his side. mr. ready scanned to the right so he was looking away from the president, because he was looking around from the right side. as a consequence, he wasn't aware of what was happening in the front. the car was also going on a turn at that time. mr. rankin. what about the other two? mr. rowley. the other two were watching--they reacted normally--the man on the left side looked to his left rear, and the man, landis, looked to his right rear. mr. rankin. have you done anything to discipline these men for violation of the regulations of the secret service? mr. rowley. well, i did consider what type of punishment would be provided. then i also considered the fact that these men in no way had--their conduct had no bearing on the assassination. and, therefore, i thought that in the light of history, to place a stigma on them by punishing them at that time, from which inevitably the public would conclude that they were responsible for the assassination of the president--i didn't think this was fair, and that they did not deserve that, with their family and children. (at this point, representative ford entered the hearing room.) mr. dulles. may i ask one question there? you described the assignment of the four men with respect to the followup car and the president's car. do they have different assignments with regard to watching what is happening around them, or does that depend on the circumstances in which they are? mr. rowley. both. when they start off they have a certain area that they have to watch. like the man in the right front would naturally watch slightly to the right and in front of him. the fellow on the side, behind him, will watch to the right and rear. in other words, as they are going by a building, he should scan the building. in the meantime, he picks up where the man in the front has finished. in other words, the scan of the man in the front will cover the building to his front and side; the fellow behind will scan alongside from rear to forward. their scanning joins. this is the way they are accustomed to doing it. mr. dulles. who would cover straight ahead? mr. rowley. the man in the front seat has that responsibility. mr. rankin. chief rowley, how do you construe subparagraph (c) of your regulation regarding the use of alcoholic liquors? the chairman. will you read it for the record? mr. rankin. will you kindly read it? mr. rowley. "violation or slight disregard of the above paragraphs or the excessive or improper use of intoxicating liquor at any time will be cause for removal from the service. in interpreting the words 'excessive' and 'improper,' slight evidence tending to indicate unusual or questionable conduct will be considered proof that the use of liquor has been improper or excessive. association with others who drink to excess will be considered as an indication of using more than a moderate amount of liquor. the excuse that liquor was used for medicinal purposes will not be accepted." mr. rankin. how do you construe and apply that? mr. rowley. well, in this instance, it was wrong. mr. rankin. now, were these men under this regulation considered to be on travel status, so that they should not be using intoxicating liquor? mr. rowley. yes, sir. mr. rankin. and there is no question about that in your mind? mr. rowley. no, sir. mr. rankin. has anything been done to reprimand and cause them to realize that this is a violation of your regulations? mr. rowley. they were interviewed by the inspector at the time. the seriousness of the matter was impressed upon them. and i think they recognize the seriousness of their acts. the men we recruit are men that are college graduates and mature, and we screen them very carefully, particularly before we assign them to the white house detail. they know and we know that they are in a fishbowl hours a day, and that, therefore, their conduct is always subject to scrutiny, and so forth, and that they are responsible individuals. their records have indicated that they have been performing in a high degree. they have worked endless hours of overtime. they are dedicated. and if they were not, they would not be on the detail. they realize the seriousness of the violation, and i went over it with my special agent in charge. he understands it. and i am quite sure that they all understand it at this time. mr. rankin. i would like to have you examine commission exhibit no. , chief rowley, and see if that is the regulation of the secret service that you have been referring to. mr. rowley. yes; that is what i have been reading here, sir. mr. rankin. mr. chief justice, i would like to offer as a part of the record the regulation, commission exhibit no. . the chairman. it may he admitted. (the document was marked for identification as commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. rankin. chief rowley, have you had any other complaints similar to this in regard to the conduct of the secret service agents on the presidential or white house detail? mr. rowley. we had one in the last month. we had charges leveled at us by an agent of the secret service---- mr. rankin. will you tell us about that? mr. rowley. who is currently under indictment, and who will be brought to trial on criminal charges on the th of june. and, for that reason, while i have no reluctance to discuss it, i think we should go off the record, because i don't want to in any way prejudice the case. the chairman. there is no reason to discuss that case here, chief. is there anything in particular that would affect this situation you wanted to know about, mr. rankin? mr. rankin. mr. chief justice, the only thing would be the investigation as to whether or not there was comparable conduct. i didn't know whether the commission would like to know what that investigation was and what the results of it were. the chairman. well, i suppose there is no objection to the chief telling us what this complaint was, but not insofar as it bears on the crime that he is charged with. mr. rowley. well, it ties in with the crime, because he said he was framed. now, he said he was framed because he was prepared to go before your commission, sir, to testify about this thing that happened years ago, and in the charges he said he advised me, as well as others, and nothing was done. he said he was framed for this reason. the chairman. had he ever made any complaint to you before? mr. rowley. he had never made any complaint to me. it came as a complete surprise. representative ford. the complaint to you came subsequent to the filing of criminal charges against him? mr. rowley. he said he had made the charges at the time the alleged incidents occurred, mr. congressman, that he notified me, before he left an assignment years ago. let me give you the background, so there is no misunderstanding. we have what we call an orientation program. the men we recruit from the colleges, and the type of men that we want, we cannot always get off the civil service roster. therefore, we have an understanding with civil service that we can take men under schedule a. within a period of years, they will have to be assigned to the white house or dropped from the service. now, in order to determine their ability and fitness for assignment, since some people are better criminal investigators than they are in protection work, we have an orientation program which includes duty on the white house detail. mr. bolden was one of the men selected to come in the summer of . he was also a replacement for some regular agent on the detail who was on leave. it was a -day assignment. this afforded us an opportunity to observe him, determine whether he was equipped and so forth. and he was on the white house detail for this short period of time. the time that he describes was a -day weekend up in hyannis port. mr. rankin. i don't think that quite answers---- mr. rowley. i am giving the background. mr. rankin. i think the question is as to when you got the complaint. mr. rowley. well--excuse me. [continuing.] before he left his detail assignment, you see, he alleges that he told me about the condition that was going on up in hyannis. representative ford. before he left on this -day assignment? mr. rowley. when he left to return to his office in chicago. mr. rankin. and what is the fact in that regard? mr. rowley. the fact is he never informed me. he never informed any of his supervisors or anyone on the detail. mr. rankin. i think the record should show, mr. chairman, that we were never advised that he wanted to testify, nor had we any inquiry or anything about the matter, until after we learned about it in the newspapers. and, even then, he didn't ask to testify. and we asked the fbi to check into it, and he had counsel, and they refused to tell anything about the matter at that time. mr. dulles. could i ask a question? did i understand you to say that the civil service prescribes that certain men must be assigned to the white house for a certain detail? mr. rowley. no, mr. dulles; we have an arrangement with the civil service that they will permit us to recruit these men, not from the register, but under what they call schedule a. they give us an opportunity, years, to train these men, with the understanding that within years' time they will have to be assigned to the white house detail or we will not be able to retain them in the service. however, during that years, we urge them to take the civil service examination, so that they get on the register. and then when they do--quite frequently this occurs--they are selected from the register, and once they become permanent, if they are not interested in the white house detail, then they continue their work as a criminal investigator in the field. mr. dulles. but if they do not take that special examination, then--and become a part of the civil service, then they have to be assigned to the white house, to stay on? mr. rowley. yes. mr. dulles. i was a little worried when you said certain people had to be assigned to the white house, that you were under compulsion to assign certain people to the white house in order to retain them. mr. rowley. no; anyone who works in the white house, whether he is an electrician, a painter, or anything, for a period of years, he automatically becomes eligible for permanent civil service status. representative ford. is that by law or by regulation? mr. rowley. that i cannot say. i would always interpret it as under law. i may be wrong on that, mr. ford, but this is what happens. when our men spend years on the detail at the white house, they come within that classification. mr. rankin. chief, can you clarify commissioner dulles' inquiry? the civil service does not direct that you put certain people in the white house? mr. rowley. oh, no; we do that in order to--i see your point, sir. we do that in order to give them the permanency that they should have to continue their employment with the secret service. mr. rankin. but that is the choice of the secret service rather than anybody else? mr. rowley. yes, sir. mr. dulles. i gather the civil service prescribed if they did not do this, they could not be retained. is that correct? mr. rowley. that is right. in other words---- mr. dulles. there is some pressure, i should think. mr. rowley. there is no pressure, because we voluntarily entered into an agreement with them, sir, for this arrangement, explaining that we frequently don't get from the register the type of men that we want, and that, therefore, we want the opportunity to recruit the men from the universities or colleges. once they have served on the white house detail for a period of years, then they would get this permanent status. however, during the years, they have an opportunity and they are encouraged to take the civil service examination, so they get career status. but there is no pressure from the civil service. it is a convenience or agreement that they have arranged with us. mr. rankin. maybe i can help, chief. schedule a is an exemption from the regular civil service roster, is it not? mr. rowley. that is correct. mr. rankin. and the register is a list of employees from which you have to otherwise select government employees if they are not exempt by reason of their positions, is that correct? mr. rowley. that is right. representative ford. in other words, civil service commission has set up for the white house detail all inclusive---- mr. rowley. not necessarily for the white house detail, mr. ford. for the secret service--to allow us to get the type of individuals that we want for both criminal investigation and protective work. because if you say exclusively for the white house detail, the fellow might not be equipped for the white house detail. representative ford. in other words, every person recruited by secret service for any capacity is recruited in the first instance under schedule a. mr. rowley. yes; if he hasn't--if he is not on the register for civil service. we first go to the civil service, when we want to select somebody, to see if there is anyone on there that meets our qualifications. and then, if not, then we hire them under schedule a, which is sort of a blanket exemption. representative ford. but i gather from what you have said, or i think you are intimating that most of your recruiting actually is from colleges, and they are under schedule a. mr. rowley. that is right; yes, sir. most of them from your state, sir--michigan state university. representative ford. it is a fine school. mr. rowley. that is where it started, actually. they were the first ones. now we also recruit on the west coast, in california, they have terrific schools out there. mr. rankin. chief rowley, i don't think you covered the bolden matter as to whether you had an investigation made. did you? mr. rowley. yes; i did, sir. mr. rankin. did you find out anything about the conduct of your agents? mr. rowley. i found out there was no truth to the charges of misconduct. there were charges lodged against us. one charge, the ninth charge, a part of it was true. the boys did contribute for food. in other words, up there in hyannis, when they are up there for a week, or a weekend, they would be assigned to a house, which economically was beneficial to them. one shift, and some of the drivers would be in this house. this house was in a remote area from the shopping area and so forth. so they agreed when they arrived there to contribute, to buy food for breakfast, it being an to shift. eight to four meant they would have breakfast there and dinner. mr. rankin. what do you mean by that, chief? did they get a certain house and were able to live together there to reduce their expenses? mr. rowley. that is correct. mr. rankin. and then they each contributed to that common expense? mr. rowley. that is correct. mr. rankin. and did someone cook for them? mr. rowley. one of the agents who enjoyed it as a hobby cooked the meals for them, while the others took care of the dishes. mr. rankin. they did contribute to supporting that? mr. rowley. they contributed to supporting that, sir. mr. rankin. was there criticism of that action? mr. rowley. there was criticism of the action to this extent: that when they went shopping they bought two or three cases of beer which they had available in the icebox when the men came off duty in the evening. mr. rankin. now, were they on a travel status or subject to---- mr. rowley. not on travel status under our regulations. they could be there a week, and they would be working their hours. they were not working any longer than their hours. it was comparable to their assignment here in washington. mr. rankin. so it was really a summer white house position? mr. rowley. summer white house is what we called it. mr. rankin. and did you investigate the charges to see whether they were valid? mr. rowley. i investigated. this portion was correct. there was some substance to that portion. he also said he was left on post for a period of hours and wasn't relieved. that an agent had used this time to take care of his private car. we established there was no agent up there who had a private car. further, we established that he was left on post because according to our arrangements it was routine that whenever the president went out for a cruise, the agents on the outer perimeter at the time would remain on duty, and the agents in the inner perimeter would accompany the president on the cruise in the followup boat. naturally, when they were out on the boat, there was no one available to start what we call the push, to rotate the men from one post to another. in other words, in the white house or any place where we establish posts, every half hour one man starts from the office and starts making the push. the first man is relieved and he relieves the next one, so there is no monotony on their jobs. they each have a different area. they are conversant or acquainted with each and every phase of the physical area. but because he was on one post, and not relieved, he complained. so the next day, to bend over backwards, and show there was not any prejudice, the agent in charge took him on the cruise, so he would not feel he was being ignored. mr. rankin. now, from your investigation, did you find any violation at hyannis of the regulations of the secret service? mr. rowley. no, sir. mr. rankin. have you been informed of any other claims that secret service agents had been violating the regulations while on duty? mr. rowley. no, sir; i haven't been informed of any others. and it seems in the last few days or few weeks we have been getting complaints that we haven't had in many years. and i think, as i mentioned earlier, because of the fact that we are very careful with the type of men we screen, their record has been above reproach over the years. they have conducted themselves in an exemplary manner. my files are replete with commendations on behalf of the agents wherever they have traveled and worked with committees and individuals in connection with presidential travels, both here and abroad, which testifies to the impression that they have made. mr. rankin. have you ever had a secret service agent indicted or a complaint filed against him, a criminal complaint, prior to this time? mr. rowley. this is the first time i remember anything like this happening since i have been with the secret service. representative ford. mr. rankin, i don't recall chief rowley saying precisely what the reprimands were specifically for these violations of the regulations in this one instance. you spoke highly of their background, and you spoke very high in their praise. but i did not hear what reprimand, if any, had actually been lodged against them. mr. rowley. there was no reprimand. you are talking about the current thing? representative ford. i am talking about the dallas trip. mr. rowley. i stated in considering what would be an appropriate punishment at the time, i felt that these men, by their conduct, had no bearing on the assassination of the president in dallas. that to institute formal punishment or disciplinary action would inevitably lead the public to conclude that they were responsible for the assassination of president kennedy. i did not think in the light of history that they should be stigmatized with something like that, or their families or children. and, for that reason, i took the position that i did. representative ford. so there was no official reprimand or disciplinary action? mr. rowley. no, sir. mr. rankin. did you talk to the agents, to indicate and make it plain to them that this was a violation of the regulations? mr. rowley. i talked to some of the agents, as did my inspector at the time, who interviewed each and every one of them. mr. rankin. and i think the commission would be interested in whether you can be assured, or assure them that the action you took was sufficient so that this would not happen again. mr. rowley. well, i am confident that it would not happen again, mr. rankin. mr. rankin. can you tell us why you think so? mr. rowley. because they realize the seriousness of their action. initially i can understand the situation--they thought they were going for a dinner, buffet, and they got into the place and it wasn't there. i talked personally with the agents there, and they just thought while they were there they would have a drink. it was one of those situations. the important thing was that it was pointed out to them this was wrong, this was a violation. these men are young men with futures, they realize the true situation, innocent as they may have seemed to think it was. but i am quite confident that we will not have a repetition of that. and in talking to mr. behn--i am confident, too, in him--i know that he will see to it that they are well supervised. mr. rankin. when they are out on a trip of this kind, chief rowley, as i understand your regulations, it is understood by the regulations and by the secret service that they are on duty all the time--that is, subject to call? mr. rowley. yes, sir. mr. rankin. and even though it is late in the evening or they had gone to bed in the early hours of the morning, they could be called to go on duty and perform their responsibility of taking care of the president or the vice president, or whoever they are charged with; is that right? mr. rowley. that is right. mr. rankin. so that do they understand that when they are out on that kind of duty, they are subject to call at all times, and anything they do contrary to regulations is a violation, because they are subject to the call and must be ready at any moment to perform their duties. mr. rowley. they certainly do, because there have been situations, whether or not they have had it with the kennedy administration i don't know--but i know there have been situations where we have moved fast, all hours of the night. i remember one instance, that has never been disclosed--as mr. dulles knows, you never advertise your successes, you just get the other things--that i would like to give you as an example off the record, to answer your question, if i may. the chairman. off the record. (discussion off the record.) the chairman. back on the record. chief, it seems to me that on an assignment of that kind, to be alert at all times is one of the necessities of the situation. and i just wonder if you believe that men who did what these men did, being out until early morning hours, doing a little--even a small amount of drinking--would be as alert the next day as men should be when they are charged with the tremendous responsibility of protecting the president. mr. rowley. well, we checked on that, mr. chief justice, and the agent in charge reported that they were in good physical condition. i don't condone these late hours; no. this is not a rule. this case is an exception. however, because of the activities of any travel such as the presidents today make from one place to another, to maybe seven states in a weekend, there is constant going. i don't condone this at all. but these men are young. they are of such age that i think that they responded in this instance adequately and sufficiently as anyone could under the circumstances. the chairman. well, i am thinking of this. as you go along in the motorcade, you have men who are scanning the buildings along the way, don't you? mr. rowley. yes, sir. the chairman. and they have submachineguns in one of the cars. mr. rowley. no; for security reasons, i would like to--we don't have machine-guns now, sir. the chairman. i just thought i heard that from the record here, that they had some kind of guns. mr. rowley. they had a weapon, a new weapon; yes, sir. mr. chairman. well, whatever it is. now, other people, as they went along there, even some people in the crowds, saw a man with a rifle up in this building from which the president was shot. now, don't you think that if a man went to bed reasonably early, and hadn't been drinking the night before, would be more alert to see those things as a secret service agent, than if they stayed up until , , or o'clock in the morning, going to beatnik joints and doing some drinking along the way? mr. rowley. if i remember that witness' testimony--and that was one of the first statements that he made--that witness was with his wife, and he happened to look up there, and i think he said, "there is a man with a rifle, it is a secret service man," and let it go at that. he didn't inform any of the authorities. the chairman. no; nobody did. but i say wouldn't an alert secret service man in this motorcade, who is supposed to observe such things, be more likely to observe something of that kind if he was free from any of the results of liquor or lack of sleep than he would otherwise? mr. rowley. well, yes; he would be. but then, on the other hand, mr. chief justice, in some instances the men come in from a trip at : in the morning, which there have been cases on travels that i have made, and have to be up at : or o'clock, and out in time for a o'clock departure. then you go all that day until or o'clock the next morning. this is what has happened in the past. the chairman. i am not talking about the past. we are talking about nine men here who were out until rather unusual hours of the morning. mr. rowley. yes, sir. the chairman. they were to be on duty the next day. the next day--or if not sooner. the next day they were supposed to be alert to anything that might occur along the line of march. don't you think that they would have been much more alert, sharper, had they not been doing these things? mr. rowley. yes, sir; but i don't believe they could have prevented the assassination. the chairman. isn't it a substantial violation of these rules to do a thing of that kind? mr. rowley. yes, sir--on the basis of this section here. the chairman. yes. now, chief i noticed, also, in reading some of the reports that three of these men whom you speak of, were actually on night duty, protecting the life of the president. and around o'clock in the morning, when they were protecting him at the texas hotel, they said that they had a coffee break, and they went from the hotel over to the beatnik joint. now, is that consistent with your regulations? mr. rowley. in this case, i talked to these three agents. they were relieved at different times--because their posts are in the corridor of a stuffy hotel---- the chairman. of the what? mr. rowley. the corridor that they were on post outside the president's suite was a stuffy one, and they went downstairs to get a breath of fresh air. and they walked--it was a block--and out of curiosity they went into this place. one fellow looked in and left, he didn't buy any coffee. another fellow went in and felt, i suppose, when he went in that he would buy a cup of coffee. but they were on what we call reliefs, the same as we relieve them around the white house. there are only so many posts, but you have a group of men in one of the rooms of the hotel where they are available, like an alert squad, and they relieve everyone on post every half hour. it is a part of the rotation of positions we have. the chairman. do you have any regulations concerning where they shall remain when they are relieved for this short period of time? mr. rowley. no, sir. the chairman. they can go any place they want? mr. rowley. no; not any place. they usually stay within the immediate confines. that is understood. the hotel or the residence. the chairman. well, they didn't do that here, did they? mr. rowley. no, sir. the chairman. they went to the beatnik joint. mr. rowley. yes, sir. the chairman. now, is that consistent with their duty? mr. rowley. no; it is not consistent or inconsistent with their duty. but as they explained to me, they wanted to get a breath of fresh air. if they are at a residence in a remote place, and they want to walk around the area, they might walk maybe a city block or so, which is what they do on a lot of these assignments--particularly in hotels. this was not an air-conditioned hotel. the chairman. it would seem to me that a beatnik joint is a place where queer people of all kinds gather anyway, and that the mere fact that these men did leave their post of duty might be an indication to someone that the president was not being protected, and might leave an opening for them to go there and try to do something. mr. rowley. they were relieved, mr. chief justice. they didn't leave their post of duty. they would not leave their post of duty until they were relieved by someone. the chairman. as i understood the report, they said they left for a coffee break. mr. rowley. well, it is an expression. they left to have coffee, sir. the chairman. was there any place for coffee in the hotel? mr. rowley. i think there was a coffee shop in the hotel; yes, sir. the chairman. that was the only place in town, as i understood, from the reports, outside of the beatnik place they could. but they went down to the beatnik place. did they do that by prearrangement with the other agents? mr. rowley. no, sir; it was curiosity on their part. they hadn't seen the other agents. there was no arrangement of any nature at all, sir. the chairman. but they did there meet other agents? mr. rowley. they saw other agents--those that were in the place at the time they looked in. i think they came in after most had left, though. mr. dulles. were these men off duty for the night or were they going back on duty immediately after this break? mr. rowley. no; they were on duty. they were the midnight shift, mr. dulles, from to a.m. mr. dulles. they were going back on duty? mr. rowley. they were going back on duty; yes, sir; in minutes, minutes. mr. dulles. i see. representative ford. and they did go back on duty and relieve somebody subsequent to this? mr. rowley. that is right; yes, sir. mr. rankin. chief rowley, did you give the commission a letter as of may of this year in regard to this dallas matter concerning the press club and the cellar? mr. rowley. yes, sir. mr. rankin. and is that letter correct in regard to what happened as far as you know? mr. rowley. yes, sir. mr. rankin. and did you make available to the commission the statements of each agent signed by the agent? mr. rowley. yes, sir. mr. dulles. i think you said dallas. did you not mean fort worth? mr. rankin. yes--it should be fort worth, i am sorry. thank you. i hand you commission exhibit no. and ask you if that is your letter of may that we have just referred to. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. rowley. yes, sir. mr. rankin. mr. chairman, i offer in evidence commission exhibit no. . the chairman. it may be admitted. (the document heretofore marked for identification as commission exhibit no. , was received in evidence.) the chairman. chief, i notice in the report that was made that while your inspector found that no one--no member of the secret service was intoxicated at the club--but that there was someone connected with the group who was intoxicated. mr. rowley. yes, sir. the chairman. i wonder if that also wasn't a violation of that portion of the rule which says, "in interpreting the words 'excessive' and 'improper' slight evidence tending to indicate unusual or questionable conduct will be considered proof that the use of liquor has been improper or excessive. association with others who drink to excess will be considered as an indication of using more than a moderate amount of liquor." did you call that to the attention of your people? mr. rowley. yes, sir. they ran into that individual as they were entering--two agents ran into this individual as they were entering the fort worth club. the chairman. go ahead. mr. rankin. chief rowley, i hand you commission exhibit no. , and ask you if that is a document that you had prepared for the commission. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. rowley. yes, sir. mr. rankin. and that includes, under capital letter a, the transmittal from inspector mccann; b, the report of the investigation by inspector mccann; c, the drew pearson article? mr. rowley. yes, sir. mr. rankin. d, the statements of the supervisors; and, e, the statements of the special agents; f, the statements of witnesses; and, g, the memorandum of may , , by agent sorrels, is that right? mr. rowley. that is right. mr. rankin. and are those various documents a part of the official report by the secret service to the commission of this matter? mr. rowley. yes, sir. mr. rankin. mr. chairman, i offer in evidence commission exhibit no. . the chairman. it may be so admitted. (the document heretofore marked for identification as commission exhibit no. , was received in evidence.) mr. dulles. off the record, may i ask a question? the chairman. yes. (discussion off the record.) the chairman. back on the record. chief, i notice--i have read this report. at any place in here, did any of your investigators, inspector mccann, or your special agents, or anybody else, indicate that there had been any violation of any kind on the part of your people, or particularly any violation of this section , chapter , page of the secret service manual? mr. rowley. i think what happened in this instance, we responded to the broadcast of mr. pearson and his charge that the men were inebriated. we were primarily concerned with that at that time. and to get the statements from the men. but i do know that in the course of his interviewing of these individuals at the time, and taking their statements, he impressed upon them the fact that there was a violation. the chairman. has there been any report made to the commission to the effect that there was any violation of---- mr. rowley. no, sir; unless it is contained in this document here, sir. the chairman. i have not seen anything in there. it seems to me they were all given a complete bill of health. and i just wonder if that is quite consistent with the facts that the commission should have. mr. rowley. no, sir; as i said earlier, we don't condone their actions, nor do we try to belittle the violation. but in the circumstances, i took the decision that i thought right in view of the tragedy and so forth. in any other circumstance it would have been entirely different. but as i said earlier, i don't think that these people should be blamed for the tragedy that happened at that time, and that any attempt to assess formal punishment would in the light of history stigmatize them for the rest of their life, as well as their families. mr. rankin. mr. chairman, i plan to leave that subject now--unless there is some further question. the chairman. any further questions? very well. mr. rankin. chief rowley, will you tell us whether you learned anything about the preparations in dallas for the visit of the president on november ? mr. rowley. yes; i read the report of special agent lawson, who was designated as the advance agent for that visit. mr. rankin. and do you know that that report has been furnished to us? mr. rowley. yes, sir. mr. rankin. a copy of it. and have you examined it to determine whether it is accurate, as far as you can determine? mr. rowley. it is accurate; yes, sir. mr. rankin. do you have any additions or corrections? mr. rowley. no; i have no corrections to make, sir. mr. rankin. were you--are you satisfied, now examining that report, with the manner in which the advance preparations for the trip of the president were handled? mr. rowley. yes, sir. the report follows the standard procedure that we have exercised over the years, and in many of the trips we had taken with the late president. he covered everything with the police and all that we have normally covered on such visits. mr. rankin. did you have enough agents at that time to perform the required duties in connection with this trip for both dallas and the other cities in texas to be visited? mr. rowley. well, we never have enough agents for the activities that the president today is engaged in. we draw from the field to supplement or augment the agents from the white house detail. we move the agents from one point to another where we can--particularly in the area of the advance men. but in dallas we had sufficient agents with prior experience in presidential protection who assisted mr. lawson in the advance preparations. mr. rankin. did you furnish to the commission a statement of the preparations that were made for the trip? mr. rowley. yes, sir. mr. rankin. and that included the various protective activities, did it? mr. rowley. yes, sir. mr. rankin. i hand you commission exhibit no. , and ask you if that is the report you made in regard to the trip. mr. rowley. yes, sir. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. rankin. do you have any corrections or additions that you care to make to it? mr. rowley. no, sir. mr. rankin. mr. chairman, i offer in evidence commission exhibit no. . the chairman. it may be admitted. (the document heretofore marked for identification as commission exhibit no. , was received in evidence.) the chairman. chief, i have wondered about this question. some months before ambassador adlai stevenson had been handled very roughly in dallas. did you make--did your people make any investigation as to that group that caused that disturbance for him, to see if there might be some possibility of the same thing happening to the president? mr. rowley. not immediately at the time of the incident that occurred to mr. stevenson, but when the advance man came down, that was one of the things that we assigned a local agent to inquire into, to ascertain the hard core of that group, if you will, that were responsible for stimulating that activity. and he contacted an informant, and with the local police, who are members of a special squad that are involved in this kind of activity, they went and identified through pictures, which they saw in the newsreel, the principal members. they had photographs made, and they issued them to the agents on their visit there, to be on the lookout for these men as potential troublemakers. (at this point, representative boggs entered the hearing room.) the chairman. did they do the same thing concerning the incident that vice president johnson had a year or so before that? mr. rowley. no, sir; not at that time. that was more or less in the heat of a political campaign. i don't think that was a similar type of activity. the chairman. i see. but you did do it with the stevenson matter? mr. rowley. that is right. mr. rankin. chief rowley, did you make a report to the commission with regard to the publicity concerning the trip of the president? mr. rowley. yes, sir. mr. rankin. and is commission exhibit no. that report? mr. rowley. yes, sir. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. rankin. do you wish to make any additions or corrections of that letter? mr. rowley. of that letter? no. mr. rankin. mr. chairman, i offer in evidence commission exhibit no. . the chairman. it may be admitted. (the document heretofore marked for identification as commission exhibit no. , was received in evidence.) mr. rankin. chief rowley, could you inform the commission about the advance publicity concerning trips of the president to various parts of the country? there has been the question raised as to whether that is a threat to the president, and might make the work of the secret service and others who are doing protective work more difficult. mr. rowley. well, we have found that it is. and we always consider it as a potential threat in that it might give someone the opportunity who had any plans, whether it be an individual as in this case, or a group, to select an area, if they knew what the route was, or conduct a reconnaissance, if you will. i have always been opposed to it, and i have always tried to prevail upon the staff of the various presidents who might be responsible for the release, not to release it too far in advance. mr. rankin. could you tell the commission what the problem is in that regard? mr. rowley. well, in this regard, it is a political thing, and the president cannot be contained in a vacuum. if he wants to go out and meet the people under our form of government, he will in his own way. each and every president has his own thoughts and methods as it pertains to these visits, and the need for publicity. this trip in dallas was an opportunity for the people to see the president, as are the trips of any president. i remember well when president truman started his trip across the country in june , the purpose being to get the feel of the people and let the people see him at the time. and it was then, as a result of that trip, that he determined he would run for reelection. that i know of my own personal knowledge. but these are the things that are hard in security, as far as developing a close screen on the president. mr. rankin. is the protective research section of the secret service under your direction, too? mr. rowley. yes, sir; that is part of the white house area, sir. mr. rankin. are you familiar with the testimony of robert bouck concerning that section? mr. rowley. yes, sir. mr. rankin. do you know whether that accurately describes the conduct of that section? mr. rowley. well, at that time. the section was established by us some years ago, and primarily to process threats, obscene letters and suicide notes. over the years, and particularly during the last years, the work has evolved to a point where we find that it requires further expansion. it had a broad and general concept in the criteria of what it needed for presidential protection in knowing what risks were about the country. mr. rankin. did the secret service have a written communication to other intelligence agencies as to the criteria for information that they sought? mr. rowley. at that time? mr. rankin. yes; at that time. mr. rowley. no; it was more or less of an informal arrangement that we had with the agencies, as we developed the section. mr. rankin. will you tell the commission what the standard was that you told the agencies you would like to have information concerning? mr. rowley. well, if there were any threats to the president, we were interested in being informed about it. we were in touch with the fbi, the cia and others. in the basic schools of the treasury, and through coordination, our agents in charge of the areas, in coordination meetings, would inform representatives of other agencies of the type that we were interested in, the nature of the threats that we asked that they refer to us. mr. rankin. did you know that this standard only developed about names from all over the country? mr. rowley. yes, sir. mr. rankin. and that it produced none in the immediate dallas vicinity? mr. rowley. that is right. mr. rankin. now, have you done anything about that standard since the assassination? mr. rowley. well, we have had a complete reexamination of the protective research section. mr. rankin. can you describe---- mr. rowley. we infused new blood. we have asked the rand corp., the research analysis corp., the president's scientific advisor, and the medical people for a study of this, and we are in constant consultation. we have brought in experienced agents who now are processing, evaluating, and analyzing all reports we receive, and indexing the information as we receive it from the various agencies. we have more recently issued and forwarded to the intelligence community in washington our criteria at the present time regarding what we would ask them in a more formal manner. this is the beginning of what we hope to be a more thorough and practical approach to this problem. mr. rankin. chief, i will hand you commission exhibit no. , dated june , , and ask you if that is a communication from you to the commission describing the new criteria. mr. rowley. yes, sir. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. rankin. does it accurately state that criteria? mr. rowley. yes, sir; it does. mr. rankin. mr. chairman, i offer in evidence commission exhibit no. . the chairman. it may be admitted. (the document heretofore marked for identification as commission exhibit no. , was received in evidence.) mr. rowley. if i may read---- mr. rankin. would you tell us the gist of the new criteria, and what the difference is as you conceive it from the old standard? mr. rowley. well, if i may do this. we have sent this criteria to the intelligence agencies that we think would be of help to us, with a covering letter in which we say that studies are now underway, "by which we hope to develop more detailed criteria. our experience with the attached guidelines will also be carefully evaluated with a view towards amendments if required. we will appreciate your cooperation and suggestions concerning these guidelines, so that the person of the president will be protected to the best of our combined abilities and resources." another thing today now that we have to concern ourselves with, is that we get an expanding file of information. mr. rankin. has that happened since the assassination? mr. rowley. well yes; we have gotten some , reports on the members of the communist party from the fbi. at this time we have read and evaluated and catalogued them and indexed them. there has been a small percentage that have been to date of interest to us. but this is the beginning. and except for the indexes, we are more or less current as a result of that. this is through the long hours and hard work by the new group that i brought in to develop this department. mr. rankin. now, how is the standard described in exhibit no. different from the prior standard? mr. rowley. well, we have always had the basic standard. the other standard was the threat to harm or embarrass the president, however, this time we added three factors. mr. rankin. and these are in addition to the threat of harm to the president? mr. rowley. that is correct. mr. rankin. all right, proceed. mr. rowley. the interest of the individual or the organization, capabilities of the individual or the organization, and the activities of the individual or organization. the interests of the individual or organization is the prime factor to be considered in the criteria, but must be coupled with the capability and activity of the individual or organization in any determination for referral to the secret service. "the interest must be towards the president, or others named, or other high government official in the nature of a complaint, coupled with an expressed or implied determination to use a means other than legal or peaceful to satisfy any grievance, real or imagined. after the interest phase of the criteria is met, then the activity which encompass previous history, that is, mental instability, history of violence and the capability of the individual or organization for furthering this interest will dictate whether the case should be referred to the secret service. in making referrals to the secret service, it is requested that the agency furnish all pertinent background information relating to each of the three factor criteria." mr. rankin. now, is the secret service operating under the standard or criteria described in exhibit no. at the present time? mr. rowley. at the present time, it is, sir. mr. rankin. and when did that become effective? mr. rowley. that became effective in the last weeks as we developed and explored and examined the many reports that we were receiving. mr. rankin. now, the language that you read into the record, where you invited comment and suggestions from the various other agencies to whom you sent communication, what did you mean by that? is that asking them for their ideas so that you may further change the criteria? mr. rowley. where we may get in a position later on to break it down into categories. in other words, if every agency forwards and inundates us with many reports--say we expand to million, obviously, the whole intelligence family could not cope with that. you have to get it down to a workable number. on the other hand, if you try to restrict the categories too much, then you find yourself in a position that you may miss another oswald, and then the utilities of your file are of no consequence. so you have to try to reach the level in between there where it is going to be practical for us to react or develop the type of risks that we think should be covered by our organization in the protection of the president of the united states. mr. rankin. are you doing anything about the use of equipment that might help you to secure information about any particular locality the president was going to travel to more readily? mr. rowley. in connection with the prs? mr. rankin. yes. mr. rowley. well, we have conferred with the ibm. can i go off the record on this? the chairman. yes. (discussion off the record.) the chairman. back on the record. mr. rankin. chief rowley, you have described off the record certain matters that involve the security of the country and cannot be made public. but can you tell us whether you have done anything in the past to try to improve your methods in testimony that can be made public? mr. rowley. well, i have tried to secure in the appropriations funds to enable us to procure the equipment and personnel that we thought would be necessary. with the approval of the congress, we were able years ago to secure funds to enable us, in our check forgeries program, to try to adapt the characteristics of handwriting to an adp processing program. we are hopeful this will work out. and we have used the bureau of standards to assist us in this program. we have prints out and have programmed part of the operation. now, it was my thought that if we succeeded in that area, we could also apply it to prs. so we are working quite hard on this other area. and i knew the need would be eventually for us to get into the prs stage on the electronic machine situation. mr. rankin. now, did you know that we had asked mr. bouck when he testified if he could inform us at a later date about people who were in institutions or otherwise might be dangerous, and with regard to whom you asked that the secret service be notified, so that they could make adequate protection for the president? mr. rowley. yes, sir. mr. rankin. do you know how many such cases you now have? mr. rowley. approximately a thousand. mr. rankin. would you tell the commission what your practice was for the secret service concerning the route of the motorcade at the time of the assassination--that is, whether you made inspection of adjacent buildings? mr. rowley. at that time, and prior to that time, except for the inaugurations in washington, and other parades, involving the visit of foreign dignitaries in washington, in which the president would ride in the motorcade with the head of state, where we had ample time to make these surveys, we had never conducted on trips out of washington surveys of this nature. i have here a statement of the conditions that prevailed in dallas as well as other areas--if i may read this. mr. rankin. yes. mr. rowley. "except for inauguration or other parades involving foreign dignitaries accompanied by the president in washington, it has not been the practice of the secret service to make surveys or checks of buildings along the route of a presidential motorcade. for the inauguration and certain other parades in washington where the traditional route is known to the public long in advance of the event, buildings along the route can be checked by teams of law enforcement officers, and armed guards are posted along the route as appropriate. but on out-of-town trips where the route is decided on and made public only a few days in advance, buildings are not checked either by secret service agents or by any other law enforcement officers at the request of the secret service. with the number of men available to the secret service and the time available, surveys of hundreds of buildings and thousands of windows is not practical. "in dallas the route selected necessarily involved passing through the principal downtown section between tall buildings. while certain streets thought to be too narrow could be avoided and other choices made, it was not practical to select a route where the president could not be seen from roofs or windows of buildings. at the two places in dallas where the president would remain for a period of time, love field and the trade mart, arrangements were made for building and roof security by posting police officers where appropriate. similar arrangements for a motorcade of miles, including many blocks of tall commercial buildings, is not practical. nor is it practical to prevent people from entering such buildings or to limit access in every building to those employed or having business there. even if it were possible with a vastly larger force of security officers to do so, many observers have felt that such a procedure would not be consistent with the nature and purpose of the motorcade to let the people see their president and to welcome him to their city. "in accordance with its regular procedures, no survey or other check was made by the secret service, or by any other law enforcement agency at its request, of the texas school book depository building or those employed there prior to the time the president was shot." mr. rankin. chief rowley, i will ask you not to describe any procedure, because of security considerations, but i would like to have you tell on the record, as i think it is proper, whether there has been a change in this regard in the procedures of the secret service? mr. rowley. there has been a change in this regard. mr. rankin. i will not make an inquiry about that, unless the commission wishes to go into it off the record. representative ford. is it my understanding that the commission has such documents that we could analyze ourselves as to these changes? mr. rankin. i don't think we have any report of this. representative boggs. why can't we get it off the record? the chairman. all right. (discussion off the record.) the chairman. back on the record. mr. rankin. chief rowley, did you give us---- mr. dulles. could i ask one question with regard to exhibit no. ? this, as i understand it, is the new specifications with regard to persons with respect to whom you wish to have alert information. mr. rowley. yes, sir. mr. dulles. it is called, "u.s. secret service protective information guidelines." the top of page of this exhibit is a paragraph that reads, "the interest"--and that is the interest of the suspect, i assume---- mr. rowley. yes, sir. mr. dulles. "the interest must be towards the president, or others named, or other high government officials in the nature of a complaint coupled with an expressed or implied determination to use a means other than legal or peaceful to satisfy any grievance real or imagined." i wonder if you could explain that a little more? i ask this question because i have been studying the previous assassinations a good deal. and in many of these cases, it seems to me this definition would not have covered the assassin. that is, there has been in some cases opposition to government, opposition to people in authority, but there has been no expressed hatred toward or animus against a particular president. and i was wondering whether this went too far on a definition to meet your purposes. mr. rowley. this is a beginning, as i indicated to you here. we hope to improve it. but this is one of the things where we want to include the oswald-type individual. now, oswald wrote to the governor intimating that he would use whatever means was necessary to obtain the change of his undesirable, or as he called it, dishonorable discharge. all legal means had been used in his case, where the navy review board had examined it and came to a decision. and this is an example of what we were trying to include in the area of this type of individual. now, the other people---- mr. dulles. but that was not a threat directed against the president. that was directed against the secretary of the navy. mr. rowley. that is right; but then, on the other hand, they transfer the threats. i am quite sure that the congressmen here get many threats, and that sometimes they may not come off. but these people are obsessed. you take the individual that attempted the assassination of the late president roosevelt in miami that time. his original purpose was to shoot president hoover. but then when he heard roosevelt was there, he transferred. now, i remember a situation involving a member of truman's staff, where a fellow stalked this man at his home. and finally we got into the case on his request. we satisfied ourselves that he wasn't a real threat to him--but we picked up the paper a year later and found out he shot at an assemblyman in staten island. so if they make a threat or something like this, even though it is against the government as a group, or have some grievance, they transfer it--particularly, to the president. they use that father complex, as indicated in the research work that these different agencies have submitted to us. representative ford. under these criteria, which you are now following, oswald would have been designated? is that your judgment? mr. rowley. that is correct; yes, sir. mr. dulles. i had some questions about that in reading it. that did not occur to me, because oswald had never expressed any antagonism toward the president, as far as i know, up to this time--the president personally, or even afterward. mr. rowley. that is right; but under this criteria he would. namely, he had the interest because of the letter he wrote to governor connally. the activity, because he was a defector, and he demonstrated for the fair play for cuba committee. the capability, because he traveled, and he had knowledge of firearms. mr. dulles. yes; but those do not come, it seems to me, within this definition. maybe i interpret it differently than you. the last interest oswald showed was directed toward general walker. it wasn't against--of course, that wasn't known. mr. rowley. no; it wasn't known but the first interest of this type was the letter to governor connally as secretary of the navy, in which he said he would use whatever means he could to correct that discharge, inferring, of course, that he would apply illegal means if he could. representative ford. if we only had the letter that he wrote to governor connally, and no other information, how would that threat, or that course of action, become known to the secret service? mr. rowley. it would not, unless it was furnished by the navy department or secretary of the navy's office. just like you gentlemen get letters that never come to our attention. but you might pick up a paper some day and read that this fellow hit somebody, and he was in to see you or wrote you letters. representative ford. would this criteria be circulated among the governors, for example, or their staffs, so that if threats are received against a governor, then the governor's staff in that particular state would so notify the secret service? mr. rowley. it could. in this case it would be a help. but they refer all their complaints to the fbi. threats of this kind. representative ford. the state? mr. rowley. the governors do in most cases. so that the fbi under this system would bring it to our attention. mr. dulles. i would think, mr. rowley, this might be subject to misinterpretation as being rather narrower than you suggest. mr. rowley. well, this is something--actually, we have to develop something, and we have to, if you will, have a crash program; we are working constantly to develop the categories and breakdowns as i indicated earlier. (at this point, senator cooper entered the hearing room.) mr. rankin. chief rowley, did you supply to us the statements of the secret service agents who were informed about the assassination in dallas? you gave us written statements, did you? mr. rowley. yes. mr. rankin. i hand you commission exhibit no. , and ask you if that is the letter of transmittal, together with the attached statements that you have just described from the various agents about the events at dallas. mr. rowley. yes, sir. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) (at this point, mr. dulles withdrew from the hearing room.) mr. rankin. mr. chairman, i offer in evidence commission exhibit no. . the chairman. it may be admitted. (the document heretofore marked for identification as commission exhibit no. , was received in evidence.) mr. rankin. i would like to inform the commission that these are copies of the statements you already have in connection with the secret service report, but we wanted to make it part of the record. the chairman. very well. mr. rankin. chief, did you write me a letter for the commission on april , in which you enclosed the statements of five of your agents in regard to president kennedy's views about agents riding on the back of the car? mr. rowley. yes, sir. mr. rankin. i will hand you commission exhibit no. , and ask you if that is your transmittal letter with the statements attached. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. rankin. mr. chairman, i offer in evidence commission exhibit no. . the chairman. it may be admitted. (the document heretofore marked for identification as commission exhibit no. , was received in evidence.) mr. rankin. chief rowley, i should like to have you state for the record, for the commission, whether the action of president kennedy in making these statements was understood by you or properly could have been understood by the agents as relieving them of any responsibility about the protection of the president. mr. rowley. no; i would not so construe that, mr. rankin. the agents would respond regardless of what the president said if the situation indicated a potential danger. the facilities were available to them. they had the rear steps, they would be there as a part of the screen. and immediately in the event of any emergency they would have used them. mr. rankin. do you know why there was no one riding on the rear step at the time of the assassination? mr. rowley. from normal practice, based on my own experience over the years, i know that the agent in charge in the front or any experienced agent, who is either on the right front or the left front of the followup car, without being told, will react immediately. if he determines there is a situation here, there is a big crowd, and so forth, he will immediately leave that followup car. now, the running board on the followup car has an important place in the setup. it is a much better place to be than on the rear step if you see a situation, and you want to move fast. suppose someone is coming toward the president's car--you would be surprised how fast you are propelled by jumping off that car, and you are in motion fast, where you can either tackle somebody, or block him or anything like that. so this is an important part. you cannot do that from the rear step of the president's car. now, when the agents are in a heavy crowd, as we have been abroad, in places where we had to run, say, for miles alongside the car, agents could stand on the rear steps and screen the president. in addition, there would be agents on the side, protecting him on his right side. the crowd is surging close to him, you are bouncing off the car, and the people, trying to ward them off from touching the president. after a period of time you are weary. but with the aid of this step, you can be replaced by the agent there, and he takes your place until you revive yourself, and you are acting as a screen. now, if the thing gets too sticky, you put the agent right in the back seat, which i have done many times with past presidents. when you come out of a big crowd like that, and the crowd is sparse, and it doesn't look like there is a potential danger, you return to the followup car to be ready for any emergency in the event somebody darts across. in this instance, when the presidential car was coming toward the freeway and the people were sparse, the men at some point came back to this car. this is one of the automatic operations, if you will, that the agents respond to. so it wasn't until the first shot was fired that, as i said earlier, hill had the opportunity to scan from his left to his right, that he saw the president--the action of the president. then he responded immediately. that is why he got up to the president's car. mr. rankin. has it ever been the practice of the secret service to have an agent ride all of the time on the back step? mr. rowley. no; it hasn't. because there are times when you pick up your speed, for instance on a freeway. and when you pick up your speed, it is the most difficult thing on a step maybe to inches wide, and a grip, to stand up. and you would not be a very good screen going that fast, because you would have to bend down. that has happened to me, because i have been caught on it. now, i was in costa rica and worked the followup car. whenever i was on a trip abroad, i would work the followup car to see how the agents work, and work myself, because it wasn't what you might refer to as a routine trip. but the followup car conked out. the crowds were surging around the president's car. we had two men next to the president's car. i left the followup car immediately, from my experience, and jumped on the step, to the right rear of the president, and held onto the handgrip, and was there. and then when the man came back, i relieved him and took my position on the side--until, for a distance of a mile or two, until such time as the followup car got underway, and the other people came up. but you had to stay with the president under those circumstances. so those are the different things that occur in a given situation. the chairman. chief, as i understand this, president kennedy did not give any general instructions to the agents never to ride on his car. it was only in specific circumstances where for one reason or another he did not want them on there at that particular time. mr. rowley. no president will tell the secret service what they can or cannot do. (at this point, representative boggs withdrew from the hearing room.) mr. rowley. sometimes it might be as a political man or individual he might think this might not look good in a given situation. but that does not mean per se that he doesn't want you on there. and i don't think anyone with commonsense interprets it as such. the chairman. yes. mr. rowley. i think there are certain things that you have to allow the man who is operating as a politician, and not as head of state. i mean this makes a difference in your operation. mr. rankin. chief rowley, did you give us a report of the activities in protecting the president at and around parkland hospital? mr. rowley. yes, sir. mr. rankin. and is that commission exhibit no. ? mr. rowley. yes, sir. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. rankin. mr. chairman, i offer in evidence commission exhibit no. . the chairman. it may be admitted. (the document heretofore marked for identification as commission exhibit no. , was received in evidence.) mr. rankin. do you have any additions or corrections you care to make in that exhibit? mr. rowley. no, sir. mr. rankin. chief rowley, did you give us a report about protective activity subsequent to dallas on behalf of the secret service? mr. rowley. yes, sir. mr. rankin. i will hand you commission exhibit no. and ask you if that is the report that you have just referred to. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. rowley. yes, sir. mr. rankin. chief rowley, i ask you, are there any problems with regard to commission exhibit no. concerning security, and whether that should be--that document should be made public? you just take your time if you want to glance over it. mr. rowley. no; as i read it, it is general enough, sir, that it can be included. (at this point, mr. dulles entered the hearing room.) mr. rankin. mr. chairman, i offer in evidence commission exhibit no. . the chairman. it may be admitted. (the document heretofore marked for identification as commission exhibit no. , was received in evidence.) (at this point, representative boggs entered the hearing room.) mr. rankin. are there any of the various answers that you give in the answers to the questions attached to commission exhibit no. that you care to elaborate on at this time? i am not asking you or urging you to do it, because i assume that you answered them with care at the time. i just wanted to give you that opportunity. mr. rowley. no; not at this time. mr. dulles. may i ask a question there? you consider that the criteria as now furnished by you to the fbi and other investigative agencies would cover a case like oswald's? mr. rowley. yes, sir. mr. dulles. you think they would? mr. rowley. yes, sir. mr. dulles. you think they understand that? mr. rowley. well, as we stated in the covering letter when we sent this out--we haven't gotten any reaction--we asked for their cooperation and suggestions in connection with such guidelines. mr. dulles. defectors are not specifically covered, are they, by your criteria? mr. rowley. well, they are given to us now. we are being furnished the names of defectors, and they are being investigated, so that their background and history will be furnished to us, and we will be in a position now to determine whether they represent a risk or not. mr. rankin. chief rowley---- representative boggs. may i ask a question there? would you have any notion as to why names of defectors were not provided to you prior to november ? mr. rowley. yes; under the broad picture, mr. congressman, there was no indication that they had made any threat toward the president or members of his family. whenever there was a threat made, we were furnished promptly by the different agencies the information on the individual's name. and this was done in voluminous reports by the fbi, and the other agencies. when they got any information, they would notify the local office, notify their liaison, who notified us by telephone, and confirmed by memorandum. the same obtained with respect to the cia. representative boggs. this fellow was interviewed by the fbi several times--he was interviewed in new orleans when he allegedly had his fair play committee. if my memory serves me correctly, mrs. paine was interviewed about him shortly before the visit of the president, after he had gone to work at the texas school book depository. i agree that there had been no indication of a threat on the president's life. but, obviously he was a person in the fbi files who was under some degree of surveillance. it would seem to me strange that the fbi did not transmit this information to the secret service. mr. rowley. the fbi, mr. congressman, are concerned with internal security. and i think their approach was internal security as it related to this individual, whether or not he was a potential recruit for espionage, intelligence, or something like that. their concern was talking to him in this vein, in the course of which there was no indication that he bore any malice toward anyone, and particularly to the president of the united states. if someone said that henry smith didn't like the president, and we got his file, we would get to the point where you have million names in the file. how effective are you going to be then? representative boggs. well, that is right. mr. rowley. and then you get in the area of civil rights and all, if you start going into individuals---- representative boggs. and if i remember correctly, there has never been--we have had no testimony from anyone that oswald ever threatened the president of the united states. is that correct? mr. rankin. that is correct. representative boggs. that was the only question i had. mr. dulles. along that line, i just raise the question as to whether maybe too much emphasis is not put on the threat angle, because a clever fellow, if he is going to assassinate the president, the last thing he is going to do is go around and talk about it and threaten it. mr. rowley. that is right. well, this has been so with loners, too. as you say, you read the assassinations. some of them just kept to themselves, and traveled, and the next thing you know they confronted their victim. sometimes they were successful, other times they were not. mr. dulles. i recognize the difficulty of working out adequate criteria. but i just think you ought to do some more seeking, and there is more work to be done on that. mr. rowley. yes, sir. senator cooper. may i ask this question: it hasn't been clear to me. is it correct that now a defector does come within the scope of your service? mr. rowley. yes, sir; we are furnished the names of defectors by the fbi. and they investigate these people. and then in their report, if it shows that the individual has emotional instability or propensity for violence, we pick it up from there. but all the reports on the known defectors in this country are submitted to us, and then we evaluate from the case history of the report whether or not he would be a risk for us subject to investigation. senator cooper. i understood that was the procedure before. but my question is now, is the defector per se classed as one of those against whom you would take protective measures? mr. rowley. no, no, sir; not unless we had---- senator cooper. since the assassination? mr. rowley. not unless we had these three categories of factors we just enunciated. senator cooper. i would suggest--first, i understand there are not many defectors who have returned to the united states. secondly, it seems to me a man who has defected from the united states to go to russia or a communist country indicates that he has pretty strong convictions against the united states, or else there is something questionable about his mental processes. i would think that fact alone would make it important to watch his activities when he came back. mr. rowley. it would. and i think the fbi properly conducts the investigations, from the standpoint of internal security, and furnishes us a report. and then if there is something in the report that indicates he could be a risk to the president or the vice president, we could take it from there. representative boggs. mr. rankin. i have to go to a meeting in or minutes. there is just one question i would like to ask before leaving. is it not a fact that probably the greatest deterrent that you have is the very fact that the public knows that there is a secret service? mr. rowley. yes, sir. representative boggs. that you do guard the life of the president. and that the chances of an assassin escaping with his own life are pretty remote. so this psychological weapon is one of the things you rely on? mr. rowley. that is correct. representative boggs. and you must necessarily keep a degree of secrecy about the methods you employ. mr. rowley. yes, sir; otherwise they could develop countermethods, to thwart anything we might set up. representative boggs. exactly. thank you very much. mr. rankin. chief rowley, do you in the secret service obtain the benefit of cooperation with other governmental agencies in the protection of the president? mr. rowley. we receive cooperation from every agency. if i may name a few--we were scheduled to visit puerto rico in or --i am not quite certain--with president truman, who was then vacationing at key west. we had no office in puerto rico at the time. we did not know the situation other than that it could be sticky because of the nationalist party of puerto rico. (at this point, representative boggs withdrew from the hearing room.) mr. rowley. our advance man called me and asked me if i would not talk to mr. hoover to see whether or not we could have the assistance of some of their agents who were down there in an office established there. and i communicated then with the assistant director, who said, "i will get back to you" and got the approval. that was an example of the beginning of the cooperation, when i was at the white house, with the fbi. now, in the years subsequent to world war ii, anytime we were abroad, i made personal contact with mr. dulles, and i think for national security we should go off the record on this, because this is something that pertains today. (discussion off the record.) the chairman. back on the record. mr. rankin. now, chief rowley, are you familiar with the provisions in the appropriation act with regard to the fbi concerning their protection of the person of the president? mr. rowley. yes. mr. rankin. you know of that, do you? mr. rowley. yes; i do. historically, that was first passed in . it stated that because of the limited number of secret service men at that time, that appropriation--a certain given figure--was to be used by the u.s. marshals to assist the secret service. mr. rankin. was the secret service opposed to that provision in the appropriation act for the fbi? mr. rowley. no; it has never opposed that provision over the years. i started to say, mr. rankin--subsequently, after the founding of the fbi, this was transferred, apparently, from the marshals to the fbi, and it has been in the appropriations as long as i can remember. we have never objected to that appropriation. mr. rankin. now, there is some language in h.r. , i understand, which deals with the permanent organization of the government that you are objecting to; is that right? mr. rowley. yes; that has to do with the codification, wherein it states that the attorney general will appoint--i think, in substance--officials for the protection of the president of the united states. and this is a feature in the codification of the law we object to, because the secretary of the treasury authorizes and directs the protection of the president. representative ford. is that a bill, mr. rankin, that is before the house committee on the judiciary and the senate judiciary committee? mr. rowley. they are preparing it, and they asked for our opinions. it must be now. this is a month or so ago, mr. ford. mr. rankin. i think i can give the commission the exact language. it is chapter of the house rule that i have just described, and it is under section , and the words are: "the attorney general may appoint officials"--and then in quotes below that, in ( ) "to protect the person of the president" and--and then it deals with other matters. now, will you tell why you have an objection to that? just briefly summarize it. mr. rowley. because of the long history of presidential protection we have been directed--it has been under the jurisdiction of the treasury department, authorized by the secretary of the treasury. but this would confuse and be a conflict in jurisdiction. conflicts would naturally arise in the future as to who had jurisdiction. if anything happened like dallas, we would get into an alphonse and gaston pantomine. mr. rankin. you would get into a jurisdictional dispute? mr. rowley. that is right. mr. rankin. and that is why you object? mr. rowley. that is right. mr. rankin. but as far as any provision that has been made historically for the fbi to have funds so they can supplement and assist you, you have no objection to that? mr. rowley. no objection at all. representative ford. do you know how much in the way of funds have been utilized through that provision? mr. rowley. no; i would not know of my own knowledge, congressman, because that would be under the jurisdiction of the fbi and the budget bureau. representative ford. in other words, they don't take money that they get through their appropriation bill, and transfer it to the secret service? mr. rowley. no. representative ford. this is simply a provision which authorizes them to use whatever funds they get for this purpose? mr. rowley. that is correct. mr. rankin. chief rowley, i understand that regarding h.r. , the treasury and the justice department have agreed that the language may be changed so that it will read "assist", is that right? mr. rowley. that is correct. mr. rankin. and that is satisfactory? mr. rowley. that is right. that is what we worked out. mr. rankin. now, in connection with your protection of the president, have you drawn upon various people in the government and consultants to assist you in regard to scientific problems? mr. rowley. yes; some or years ago, we evolved a relationship with the defense department--i think more specifically in the last years--a relationship with the president's scientific advisor. this is off the record. mr. rankin. why, chief? mr. rowley. that has to do with national security. (discussion off the record.) the chairman. back on the record. mr. rankin. chief rowley, do you find in work of the secret service that you have need for scientific advice and consultation concerning problems that develop regarding the protection of the president, so that if you had some arrangement whereby you could have the assistance of either the president's scientific advisor or consultation with independent consultants, it would assist and in fact be necessary to your work? mr. rowley. i think it would be a great help, and it is necessary today, because under the crash program that we are endeavoring to undertake, i think it is important that we know, in presidential protection, what the current devices are that are available and are efficient in connection with countermeasures against eavesdropping and other things that we have been researching over the years. but this is not necessary on a day-to-day basis, and it could be on an informal basis with other agencies. i think it is necessary to have somebody of that type, who is conversant with the subject, a trained expert, who knows precisely where to go. we might spend a lot of time going around the paths, but by having an expert, he knows precisely the organization, the contracting company, what they have, whether it is suitable, whether it is efficient for our purposes. representative ford. mr. rankin, is the letter of april , , from mr. rowley to you with the enclosures a commission exhibit? mr. rankin. yes; that has been offered. that is commission exhibit no. . representative ford. in this enclosure, chief rowley, on page , under subheading (c), the following is stated: "the secret service has no funds for research and very limited funds for the acquisition of protective devices. in the fiscal year budget, the service requested $ , for two positions for technical specialists. the congress did not make any appropriation covering this request, and it was repeated in the budget request, and has been included in the appropriation passed by the house several weeks ago." could you define more particularly what you had in mind for these so-called technical specialists? mr. rowley. yes, sir; this was someone that knew something about electronics or electronic engineering for the sweeping of different places. we felt that to date we were utilizing the services of agents who primarily came with us on the basis of criminal investigation, and that, therefore, it was my feeling that we should have this type of expert. as i said earlier, i realize the shortcomings and the requirements which we are operating under--and i was endeavoring to get the funds from congress, the personnel that i thought were necessary, as well as the equipment i thought we should have, primarily to have this operation under control for us. now, i might say that the cia has been most helpful. the equipment we used in the early days were from that organization and the state department. but now they have gotten so busy, as you well know, that they haven't got much time to assist us. so that we feel we want to have our own equipment, our own experts, and people that know our work, and devote their time to it. representative ford. when you talk about technical specialists here, you are referring to electronics specialists? mr. rowley. yes, sir. representative ford. you are not referring to a general research and development program, however? mr. rowley. no, sir; this confusion is why it was refused a year ago. representative ford. let me ask this, then, chief rowley. would these technical experts, or technical specialists, have been on duty in dallas on this particular trip if you had had the funds and had employed them? mr. rowley. yes; but they would have been employed in something entirely different. representative ford. they wouldn't have had any relationship to the motorcade? mr. rowley. no, sir. if i may go off the record. mr. rankin. will you tell us why you are going off the record? mr. rowley. because it involves national security. (discussion off the record.) the chairman. back on the record. representative ford. as i understand it, then, the deletion of these funds for these technical specialists in fiscal year did not in any way handicap your operation in dallas at the time of the assassination? mr. rowley. no; we have never said that. we are just saying that if we had the equipment--in other words, what i am trying to do, mr. congressman, is to move forward. and the only way i know, after a period of years, is to ask for a sum of money, but then my experience is that sometimes the congress becomes alarmed. but this is a need that we have. and this is what i am trying to explain. this is an example of what we are trying to do, in equipment and manpower. representative ford. mr. chairman, or mr. rankin, i have to go shortly over to a session of the house. and since we are in the budget area, i think it might be well for the record to develop some facts concerning your budget--what they have in the past and what you are suggesting they might be in the future. mr. rowley. well, i have here a summary of the appropriation allocations as it applies to manpower and equipment, and the number of persons on the roll. representative ford. do you receive your appropriations in a lump sum or how do you receive secret service appropriations? mr. rowley. i guess it is on a warrant. when the warrant is signed---- representative ford. your budget is included as a part of the treasury department budget? mr. rowley. yes, sir. representative ford. now, do you have it in a separate part of the treasury department budget? mr. rowley. yes, sir. representative ford. is it specifically earmarked for the secret service? mr. rowley. it is; yes, sir. representative ford. it is a lump sum for the secret service? mr. rowley. yes, sir. mr. dulles. that is a public appropriation, it is made public? mr. rowley. that is correct; yes, sir. mr. rankin. congressman ford, if i may interrupt just a minute, i can ask chief rowley if commission exhibit no. is the one he just referred to in answer to your question about the budget. mr. rowley. yes, sir. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. rankin. i then offer in evidence commission exhibit no. . the chairman. it may be admitted. (the document heretofore marked for identification as commission exhibit no. , was received in evidence.) mr. rankin. exhibit no. , chief rowley, does include in this--so it will be understandable to the commission, the figures for your proposed budget of , doesn't it? mr. rowley. yes, sir. mr. rankin. and those are shown in that manner on the exhibit? mr. rowley. yes, sir. representative ford. is the figure we see here---- mr. rowley. this is what we call a tentative budget. mr. rankin. that has been presented to the budget bureau? mr. rowley. it has not been presented to the budget office of the treasury, which is the first step. then it goes to the budget bureau, and then subsequently to the house and senate. mr. rankin. you said it has not been. mr. rowley. no; this is a tentative proposal that we have made. mr. rankin. at this stage, so we get the record clear--that is a consideration of what you think you should have, but it hasn't gone through the steps you have just described, is that right? mr. rowley. that is right. but it does not include--necessarily, until we complete our thorough examination--what our requirements will be under the new revisions of our organization. particularly as it relates to manpower, we want to be sure that we have the proper justification. and so we hope by october or november to have a good estimate at that time. representative ford. well, the figure that is shown here for fiscal year is $ , , . mr. rowley. yes, sir. representative ford. is that the budget submission to the congress? mr. rowley. to the congress; yes, sir. representative ford. and do you recall what the house approved in its version of the bill? mr. rowley. $ , , . they cut $ , . representative ford. do you recall what the reduction was predicated on? mr. rowley. no; i don't. i think it was just cut to a round figure. representative ford. what is the footnote here which is entitled "pending action by the senate"? is that a $ , increase? mr. rowley. that is right. representative ford. is that a supplemental? mr. rowley. no, no; we are just showing the increase--this has nothing to do with the $ , . we show--this was passed by the house, but it is now pending in the senate for approval. in other words, you have your markup or something, and then it hasn't been submitted to the house for a--to the senate for approval. representative ford. but there is an asterisk there. mr. rowley. yes; this is the budget. this figure that was reduced by $ , , by the house. now, it goes before--for a markup--it will be placed before the senate for approval. mr. rankin. chief rowley, when you say "this" it doesn't show on the record what you are talking about. so if you can tell what item on that exhibit no. . representative ford. on the same line with the language, "pending action by senate," on the right-hand side is $ , , which is labeled as an increase. that increase relates to what? mr. rowley. it relates to the difference--the increase between and our proposed budget of . the asterisk here relates to the positions. mr. rankin. is there any connection between those two? chief rowley, is there any connection between the asterisk, and the wording "pending before the senate," and the item on the right-hand column of the increase? mr. rowley. yes; it represents the increase that we are asking for in the budget. senator cooper. you are not asking the senate, though, to increase the house figure of $ , , , by $ , . mr. rowley. no, no; there is no connection between these increases. this should have been down here, where you explain what the asterisk is, where we have . maybe it was put in the wrong position there. in other words, it is like a footnote. this is pending action--meaning that the house has passed the budget, but the senate has yet to pass it. mr. rankin. but to clarify, there is no connection between the increased figure and the fact that it is pending before the senate? mr. rowley. that is right. it happens to be on the same line. mr. rankin. but there is no connection? mr. rowley. no, sir. senator cooper. what you mean is the house has passed an appropriation of $ , , , and the senate has not yet acted upon it. mr. rowley. that is correct. senator cooper. the $ , is an increase that you hope will be voted in the next fiscal year. mr. rowley. that is correct. mr. dulles. do you present the budget yourself, or does the secretary of the treasury, or someone else in the treasury department--present and defend it? mr. rowley. the secretary presents the overall treasury budget, but then in detail, we appear before the appropriations subcommittee ourselves to justify our request. mr. dulles. the secret service justifies its own request in the overall budget of the department of the treasury? mr. rowley. yes, sir. representative ford. chief rowley, on page of exhibit no. , the statement is made, "in the fiscal year , the secret service has requested funds for an additional positions. the house of representatives has included the requested funds in the treasury-post office appropriation bill which passed several weeks ago. these funds will not be sufficient to take the additional measures which we believe are required. however, since the budget figures had to be submitted in november , it was not possible to make specific and properly justified requests at that time. we should be in a position to do so in the fiscal year budget submission." you are not saying that you won't have whatever additional personnel you need now, or from now until the beginning of fiscal year , for the protection of the president? mr. rowley. no; we are not saying that. we are saying that in view of the circumstances of what happened in november, that this budget of positions had already been submitted, and there was nothing you could do to take it back. the budget was also prepared and submitted. but, as i explain later, in all consideration, we cannot at this time helter skelter say we need so many men, taking advantage of the tragedy. we want to experiment and develop what we need in protective research in the way of manpower and equipment, and what we need in the field, because necessarily we will have to have special agents added to the field to conduct any investigations on risks that may be forwarded to them. representative ford. but if in the process of your analysis of your needs, you develop that you need more personnel, you need new devices, you need equipment of any sort whatsoever--you won't delay the submission of that request just because of the fiscal year budget coming up for fiscal ? mr. rowley. no, sir. representative ford. because we do have, as you well know, supplemental and deficiency appropriation bills. mr. rowley. that is right. representative ford. so if you need something, you can request it of the bureau of the budget, and if it can be justified, it can be submitted to the congress in one of the other forms besides the regular appropriation bills. mr. rowley. that is right. because now as i understand it the same committee handles the supplemental. representative ford. that is correct. mr. rowley. we are aware of that. that is what we would do when we arrive at what our requirements would be. representative ford. we can have your assurance that if you come up with requirements, you won't wait for fiscal to make your submission. mr. rowley. that is right. mr. rankin. chief rowley, you are in the process of trying to arrive at your estimates of what you need in additional personnel and equipment and other assistance to make the protective services and the secret service in its work of protecting the president as efficient as possible, are you? mr. rowley. yes, sir. mr. rankin. and you are seeking the help and advice of people that you have named, such as the rand corp., and others? mr. rowley. yes, sir. mr. rankin. and do you have any estimate now that you can give the commission as to when you might have your estimates in that regard? mr. rowley. well, i think, no. , with regard to the protective research, i think we need some expert there to assist us in developing our requirements, particularly in the criteria, on a full-time basis. we have assigned what we thought were sufficient men at this time to cope with the volume of work and reports that we have been receiving, which are now being received from the various organizations of approximately a hundred reports a day. so that we have cut down to a considerable point. now, following the evaluation and the processing of these reports, we will determine just what we actually need in the way of manpower. mr. rankin. you also have the problem of being able to get that material out once you have it, don't you? mr. rowley. that is right. and this is the point that we have to develop with ibm, or, as i said initially, with the cia. now, they have facilities that would be available to us, if it works. mr. rankin. and you are also inquiring into the question of the sufficiency of the number of agents you have for this area as well as other secret service tasks? mr. rowley. yes, sir. mr. rankin. and you are going to present that to the congress as soon as you have something definite that you can support? mr. rowley. that is right--in response to congressman ford's inquiry. mr. rankin. now, i think the commission would be interested in the requirements or standards that you have for agents. do you require a college education now? mr. rowley. yes, sir. mr. rankin. and are there any other conditions or standards that you would like to describe? mr. dulles. may i inquire for one point? is that a college education for the white house detail? mr. rowley. no; that is for all the agents that we recruit for our work, for both criminal and protective, mr. dulles. we require a minimum academic achievement of years of college or university, and preferably those who attend police administrative schools, where they have in their curricula subjects on science, criminology, and law. we find that these people are better adapted, they have an inclination, and they are interested. but we do take people with b.a.'s and b.s.'s, because they, too, have been most satisfactory. but we find when we need to recruit the men, we go to these colleges with special courses. as i mentioned earlier we first started recruiting them from michigan state, because that was one of the first universities with a police administration curriculum. and we found each and every one of them have been most satisfactory and have excellent records. as a matter of fact, a good portion of them are agents in charge of our offices throughout the country. mr. rankin. what do you do as a matter of procedure in assigning your agents? do you keep them in presidential protection, or do you shift them from that to other functions in the secret service? mr. rowley. well, when they are first sworn into duty, we assign them to an office, so during the period, the first months, you would call it inservice training, because we are not in the position that the fbi is where they take in, say, a given number of agents--let's set a figure at --and then they can start them immediately with their school of weeks. we are not in a position to hire that many at a time. we are in a position to hire . so that after months, now, after the character investigations are completed, and then we may get more later. then we send them to what we call the treasury basic school, after which we try to send them as soon as practical to our secret service school. now, sometimes a new man might be a year in the secret service, and during that period he is on probation, after which we determine through the agent in charge whether his service is satisfactory, and whether he will develop into an agent. mr. dulles. is the fbi school open to any of your respective recruits? mr. rowley. well---- mr. dulles. fbi academy. mr. rowley. the police academy would be if we had occasion to send them there, if there was something they could benefit from. we do send the white house police to the fbi police academy, because that is more in connection with their police function. mr. rankin. how does your agent get into the presidential protection? mr. rowley. well, some of the agents have indicated in their personal history questionnaires submitted each year whether they wish to select an office of duty preference, and there are three offices listed. if an agent wants for one reason or another after a period of years on the white house detail to make a request for a transfer, we consider which of the three offices he selected has a vacancy, and we assign him to that office. then we bring in one of the new men from the field service to replace him. we then train him in the protective work. necessarily, you have to have a nucleus. so there are also a number of men in supervisory positions who have been on the white house detail for or more years. mr. rankin. but your theory is that they should be able to be trained so that they could be shifted to any part of the service? mr. rowley. that is right. and it has this advantage: once they are trained in presidential protection, if for some reason the white house detail gets instructions that the president is going to fly to one of the cities, or some hamlet across the country, and we do not have time to get an agent aboard a plane and send him there, or maybe the air force has no plane available to transport him there, we pick up the phone and call an agent at the nearest place--and here is an agent that has been trained, he knows the mechanics of the operation, and the procedure, and he goes to work, and effectively lays out the arrangements. representative ford. mr. chairman, this commission exhibit no. , which shows the budget and the positions, i think is helpful. but in the submission of the budget by the secret service to the congress, they have a greater breakdown of their personnel setup. i think it might be wise to include what they submitted to the congress, or something comparable to it, because i think it is far more complete than this. mr. rowley. that is correct. representative ford. and i think it might be helpful for the record. mr. rowley. we do not disclose the number of men on presidential protection. representative ford. i understand that. but you are familiar with the presentation you might submit for your overall budget, including personnel? mr. rowley. right. representative ford. can that not be submitted for our record, just as it is submitted to the house and senate committees on appropriations? mr. rowley. it is a matter of public record. but whether or not the tentative one, the can be, before the budget bureau sees it, is something else again. representative ford. i would not expect that it would. mr. rowley. no; but the others can be. mr. rankin. mr. chairman, i would like to ask leave to secure a copy of that and insert it in the record. the chairman. it may be admitted when you obtain it. representative ford. may i ask one other question, and then i have to leave? in listening to the testimony, chief rowley, sometime ago, i was a little concerned--more than a little, i should say--with the process by which the man in charge of a presidential trip undertakes his relationship with the local law enforcement agencies. as i recall the testimony, the man in charge has contact with the local police and the sheriff's department and any other local law enforcement agency. but the impression that i gained was that there was no clear delineation of responsibility. they sat around, they talked about what this local law enforcement agency would do and what another one would do. but it seems to me that a more precise checklist, a clear understanding, would be wholesome and better. what is your reaction on that? mr. rowley. well, no. , in our revised manual on presidential protection, this is part of the thing. now, i would hesitate to prepare a checklist for everybody, because you may be embarrassed to find it in the press some day, because of the activity of reporters around the police. i do not want to downgrade any police department, but this is what happens through no fault of theirs. there are variations in different cities. now, i think what you are referring to, mr. congressman, is that they complained they did not have a sufficient notice of the route and so forth, so they could make the proper preparations. that is true. neither did we have sufficient notice. because they were going back and forth trying to establish--until they were told they had minutes allotted to them for this route, and first our man had to go, which is a natural operation, to look over the route to see whether or not it could be negotiated within that particular period of time. once establishing that it could, and the thing looked safe, then they notified the police and went over it with the police. and then with the police they indicated what they would like done here at intersections and so forth, and other features. now, it is true in most cases we ourselves like to get sufficient advance information, we like to send our men out in advance so they do not have to cope with these fast operations, because when a police department has sufficient notice of the route and so forth, then they have adequate time to get out instructions to their own police department--whether by precinct or by group commanders, and so forth. and this is what i think in this instance that they are complaining about. representative ford. as i understand it, however, at the present time, and for the future, there will be a more precise procedure for the relationships of the secret service on the one hand and local law enforcement agencies on the other. mr. rowley. yes, sir. representative ford. that is set forth in your manual as presently revised? mr. rowley. in our present revised manual. representative ford. so that when your agent-in-charge goes to city x, he now has the procedures set forth for many to follow on, so there are no uncertainties, if that is possible? mr. rowley. that is right. and you have to necessarily do that, because you have agents, as i said--as i cited an example where an agent had been trained in the white house, but you have to utilize his services, because you cannot get a regular white house man out there. he has this information, and he follows it accordingly. it is a check for him as well as for the police. representative ford. other countries have protection problems of their chief executive. i am sure in recent months the french have had considerable problems in this regard. do you ever have an exchange of methods with other governments for your benefit or their benefit? mr. rowley. we have been approached, mr. congressman, for instructions on security and so forth, but we, for reasons--for national security reasons, i would like to go off the record. (off the record.) (at this point, representative ford left the hearing room.) the chairman. back on the record. mr. dulles. you have referred to the dry runs which you made in dallas, and you usually make, i understand, to establish a route. first i think you said you did this yourself, and then with the local police. mr. rowley. yes, sir. mr. dulles. do you have any reason to believe that those dry runs were observed by the president or known to the president, or received any publicity? mr. rowley. no; they did not receive any publicity. the chairman. chief, you were referring a little while ago to the revised rules. when did the last revision take place? has it been since the assassination? mr. rowley. no. the overall revision of the manual of the secret service, was undertaken before i took office, and because it was delayed, i took it upon myself to assign a man to sit down days a week, to bring this manual up to date. the overall manual has been completed. now we have almost completed the revised advance manual. the chairman. and--but there has been--as yet there has been no revision since the assassination? mr. rowley. no, sir; it is in the process. the chairman. it is in the process of being done? very well. senator cooper. i would like to ask a question. i think you stated that you took part in the procedures and methods for the protection of president kennedy when he was--prior to his visit to dallas. mr. rowley. no, sir. senator cooper. i thought you said that you participated in a dry run. mr. rowley. oh, no; i was describing what the advance agents do. senator cooper. anyway--you know what the agents of the secret service did in preparing for the visit, of president kennedy to dallas? mr. rowley. yes, sir. senator cooper. and you know what procedures they followed during the actual route of the motorcade on that day? mr. rowley. yes, sir. senator cooper. now, reviewing those, is there any failure that you know about on the part of the secret service in those procedures or in the methods which they used on the day of the assassination? mr. rowley. no, sir. mr. rankin. chief rowley, would you tell us the salary scale for your agents for the first years? mr. rowley. yes; we recruit an agent at grade gs- , at $ , . mr. rankin. how does that compare with the starting salary for the fbi? mr. rowley. i think it is a difference of three grades. as i understand, the lowest fbi grade is gs- . mr. rankin. $ , . mr. rowley. grade . mr. rankin. what salary would that be? mr. rowley. it might be--for example, gs- is $ , . now, it could be somewhere between $ , and $ , . mr. rankin. are you able to get at that salary the quality of men that you should for this kind of work? mr. rowley. yes; we have found to date that we have been able--we have been selective. and, of course, the fact that we have only appropriations for a limited number of men. for example, today we have well over men waiting to be accepted, with completed investigations, some a year or more. sometimes when we put in requests for a given number of men, we want to put those men on at the beginning of the fiscal year, so we undertake to recruit them and complete their investigation, so that everything--the character and the physical is up to date--and we can put them on, if we get the funds precisely at the beginning of the fiscal year. mr. rankin. you recognize that your starting salary is not favorable in comparison with some police forces, do you not? mr. rowley. i recognize that. but at the same time, we are guided by the treasury law enforcement examinations, and the other treasury investigative standards. but we are below some of the west coast police organizations, for example. they are well-paid and great organizations. mr. rankin. now, what kind of a workload do your agents have on an average? mr. rowley. well, at the present time we have a caseload of . cases per man. mr. rankin. how does that compare with other intelligence agencies? mr. rowley. well, i think--a satisfactory caseload per man per month is from to cases. now, i am quite certain that in other agencies it is a little more than that. but whether or not it is as high as ours at the present time, i have no way of knowing at this time. mr. rankin. do you thing that is a handicap to your operation? mr. rowley. well, it is a handicap. but i think it is testimony to the dedication and the industry of our men, that we are not complaining. we are conducting ourselves and performing our services for the government to the point that even though we are understaffed, nevertheless we are not quitters, and we are carrying on the work within the responsibility entrusted to us. mr. rankin. did you write the commission a letter telling the history of the early development and growth of the secret service operation over the years? mr. rowley. yes, sir. mr. rankin. is commission exhibit no. that information that you gave us? mr. rowley. yes, sir; this also included the white house police. mr. rankin. will you examine commission exhibit no. , and inform us as to whether or not any of that should not be included on the public record in light of the national security problem? mr. rowley. i have no objections, because in the years past--this is part of the public record. so i would not see any objection at this time. (at this point, senator cooper left the hearing room.) mr. rankin. mr. chairman, i offer in evidence commission exhibit no. . the chairman. it may be admitted. (the document was marked for identification as commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. rankin. chief rowley, did you write us a letter with regard to proposed legislation, dated june ? mr. rowley. yes, sir. mr. rankin. and is commission exhibit no. that letter that you wrote us with an attachment telling about possible legislative changes that you thought might be desirable? mr. rowley. yes, sir. (the document was marked for identification as commission exhibit no. .) mr. rankin. i offer in evidence commission exhibit no. . the chairman. it may be admitted. (the document heretofore marked for identification as commission exhibit no. , was received in evidence.) mr. rankin. can you briefly state the contents of the attachment to that exhibit, chief rowley? you recall that it is a commentary on the suggestion of legislation about the assassination of the president? mr. rowley. yes; it is a recommendation on the bills being proposed, that the assassination of a president or vice president or possible successors to the presidency be made a federal crime. (at this point, senator cooper reentered the hearing room.) mr. rowley. currently there is such a law whereby when people of lesser rank in the government are murdered, that is investigated by federal agencies. mr. rankin. would you tell the commission briefly what your idea is as to whether or not it would be helpful to have such a statute? mr. rowley. i think today it would be helpful, because it would be a continuation of the present law, and it would be under federal jurisdiction--because this is a federal employee. and i think it properly should be under federal statute. there would then be an opportunity particularly today in the case of the president or vice president, for the investigation to be pursued immediately, and the assassin or groups of defendants to be interrogated as promptly as possible to develop and ascertain whether or not there is a conspiracy, and not wait as we have to do under the present law because of the state statute. mr. rankin. do you have any suggestions in your proposal about who would have jurisdiction to investigate and report in regard to any violation of that law? mr. rowley. currently the federal enforcement agencies--namely, the fbi--have the responsibility of conducting investigations, on most of the federal laws in the country, and therefore it might properly be their responsibility in a situation like this. however, we do have a reservation with respect to an attempt or threat on the president, because we would like to work out an agreement whereby we would jointly conduct an investigation because the threat phase of it has been under our jurisdiction, under section , for many years. it ties in with our responsibility for protection of the president. mr. rankin. in connection with the investigation of the assassination of president kennedy, have you personally participated in working with regard to that, in supervision of that investigation? mr. rowley. in the early stages when we assigned our men to inquire into the background of oswald and all. but then eventually, when the president authorized the fbi to conduct the investigation, we pulled out and only continued and finished up those reports that we initiated. mr. rankin. and since that time, after the fbi was given the authority to proceed with the investigation, you have cooperated with the commission through the staff, your staff, in helping with various items of information from time to time. is that right? mr. rowley. that is correct. mr. rankin. now, do you have any information of a credible nature that would suggest to you that oswald was or could have been an agent or informant of any federal agency? mr. rowley. i have no credible information of that kind; no, sir. mr. rankin. was he an agent or informant or directly or indirectly connected with the secret service in anyway? mr. rowley. not in any way. we did not know of him until the event. mr. rankin. from the way that the secret service employment is arranged, and the records are kept, and the payments are made, if he had ever been placed in any such capacity with the secret service, would it have come to your attention? mr. rowley. it would; yes, sir. mr. rankin. and you are certain that he never was hired directly or indirectly or acted in that capacity. mr. rowley. he was never hired directly or indirectly in any capacity. mr. rankin. do you have any credible information that would cause you to believe that lee harvey oswald was an agent of any foreign country. mr. rowley. i have no such credible information. mr. rankin. do you have any credible information to cause you to believe that he was involved in any conspiracy in connection with the assassination, either domestic or foreign? mr. rowley. i have no credible information on any of those. mr. rankin. are there any areas of the investigation of the commission that you would suggest that further work should be done, as far as you know the work of the commission? mr. rowley. i do not. mr. rankin. from your knowledge of the investigation, do you have any opinion as to whether lee harvey oswald was involved in the killing of the president? mr. rowley. from what reports i have read, i would say that he was involved in the killing of the president, but i do not have complete knowledge of it. mr. rankin. do you have any opinion from your knowledge of the investigation as to whether mr. ruby was associated with anyone else directly or indirectly in the killing of lee harvey oswald? mr. rowley. i have incomplete knowledge with respect to ruby. consequently, i could not say, other than what i saw on television or read in the newspapers, whether he had any connections. mr. rankin. is there anything in connection with the work of the commission or what you know about our inquiry here that you would like to add to or suggest that the commission do beyond what you know of it? mr. rowley. no, sir. senator cooper. may i ask a question? mr. rankin asked you several questions. he asked you if you had credible information, which i think was a proper question. but may i ask if you have any information based upon any facts that you know or based upon any information given to you by persons who claim to have personal knowledge, that there were persons engaged in a conspiracy to kill president kennedy? mr. rowley. i have no such facts, sir. senator cooper. i address the same question as to whether you have any information that the killing of president kennedy had any connection with any foreign power? mr. rowley. i have no such information. the chairman. mr. dulles, any questions? mr. dulles. yes, sir; i have one general question. from the testimony, and from my own study, it would seem to me that it was likely that there would be parallel, somewhat parallel structures to develop the investigative capabilities with regard to possible suspects in the area of presidential protection. and my question is as to whether, in order to avoid that undue expense, you think there would be any advantage in putting the responsibility of that within the fbi, who would then be responsible for advising you as to potential suspects and possibly following up on that, rather than putting that responsibility now to a certain extent on the secret service--whether there is not a division of responsibility in this field which is unfortunate and may possibly lead to greater expense, personnel doing somewhat duplicative work? mr. rowley. as it applies to this law now? mr. dulles. as it applies to the situation today, without the law which is recommended in your memorandum, and might apply also after that, because the investigation would be required in either case to turn up possible suspects. my question is, where should that responsibility be primarily centered in order to avoid undue duplication and expense, and yet accomplish our objective? mr. rowley. well, when you mention duplication, i do not think there has been much duplication in this case, when the president directed the fbi to conduct the investigation to determine whether or not there was a conspiracy. mr. dulles. i am not talking about now. i am talking about investigation prior to, say, the president's visit to city x in the united states. mr. rowley. i see. mr. dulles. or abroad--where you have the problem of the secret service and the cia. mr. rowley. well, i think you want to keep the concept of presidential protection by a small, closely knit group, because of the intimate relationship. but if you want to expand it and give it to another group, to take the long-range view, you do not know what may develop from something like that--whether a police organization could lead to a police state or a military state--if you want to delegate it to some organization like that. the chairman. i suppose also, chief rowley, that if your people were not doing the spadework on this thing, and keeping their minds steeped in this protection matter, but were obliged to rely on the written records of someone else presented to you, that they would not be in the proper state of mind, would they, to be alert to it? mr. rowley. that is right. there would be a tendency to relax and say john jones is taking care of it. this is always the possibility that you might encounter something like that. the chairman. and in law enforcement, you have to have the feel of the situation, do you not? you have to do the spadework in order to be aware of every possibility that might develop? mr. rowley. that is true. because you see in this, mr. dulles, on the presidential detail, it is a unique detail. this is something that they think hours a day. they do it hours a day. they are not otherwise involved. for example, they have the principle of screening the president and being always ready to make a quick exit. they do not have to stop to investigate or identify any person, whoever the assailant might be. their responsibility is only to protect the president at all times. mr. dulles. but they have to know against whom to protect him. mr. rowley. that is right. but they are ready for anything under the present close screening. but if i understand your question, mr. dulles, you also want to know whether or not in the screening or the investigation of certain groups, like the communist group, and so forth, since it is their responsibility and not ours, because they have the internal security of the united states, this is something that we have to develop. mr. dulles. is "they" the fbi? mr. rowley. the fbi. that is something that we have to have a formal arrangement about, because it enters the realm of internal security. we do not want to conflict with them, if that is what is uppermost in your mind. we have to be most correct about that, in any of the agencies, as you know. mr. dulles. how much larger staff do you think you are going to have to have to cover that situation in the future? mr. rowley. well, i would not know until we see the volume of reports that we get that we have to refer to the field for investigation. since we are processing them now, we have to wait to make that determination. mr. dulles. should you do field investigations as contrasted with the fbi--the fbi have a large number of people in a large number of cities throughout the united states. you do not have that? mr. rowley. no; but on the basis of the criteria we discussed earlier, the fbi would give us the information, and if in our evaluation we determined that it should be referred to the field for investigation, particularly in the case of individuals, we would conduct our investigation, to determine whether this individual is a high risk to the president. now, where it comes to the group, this is something for the fbi to do, because it ties in with their responsibility for internal security. now, if there is a close connection between the two, then we would have to have a formal agreement. but because of our responsibility, and the fact that this is part of the work that we have to undertake, then we would conduct our own investigation, because we know what we are looking for. mr. dulles. if the name of lee harvey oswald had been submitted to you by the fbi, what would you, in the normal course, have done? would you have referred that back to them for investigation, or would you have carried on an independent investigation? i am talking now if that name had been referred to you when you knew you were going to go to dallas. mr. rowley. if we knew we were going to go to dallas and we had this present criteria, then we would investigate him. mr. dulles. you would carry on the investigation? mr. rowley. yes, sir. mr. dulles. thank you. mr. rankin. mr. chief justice, i am through with chief rowley now--except i would like to ask him to supply a copy of the information about their appropriation request, and insert it with commission exhibit no. . [the information subsequently furnished by the secret service was inserted in the record as a part of commission exhibit no. .] we have mr. carswell here. as you recall, there was some difficulty at one meeting about the testimony about what the secret service was doing in regard to the speaker. and while he is here, i would like to straighten that record out. the chairman. very well. mr. rankin. it will be very brief. the chairman. chief, i want to take this opportunity to thank you and the members of your secret service for the cooperation you have given to this commission. they have been very diligent, very helpful, as you personally have been. and we appreciate it. mr. rowley. thank you, sir. testimony of robert carswell the chairman. mr. carswell, you have been sworn, have you not? mr. carswell. yes, sir. the chairman. very well. you may proceed. mr. rankin. mr. chief justice, if the commission will bear with me just a minute, i would like to tell about my own conversation with the speaker about this matter prior to his answering in regard to correction of the record. the chairman. very well. you may proceed. mr. rankin. after the matter came up before the commission, i was asked by one of the commissioners to see the speaker, mr. mccormack, and i did that at his office. and he informed me that the secret service and also the fbi had undertaken to try to give him protection because of his position in the line of succession, and that because of the interference that he felt and his wife felt with their relationship over the years in being alone and together in their family life, he did not like to have that interference, and he asked them not to participate any more in furnishing that protection for him. he said it was his own responsibility in taking that action, and he wanted that to be clear, and that he thought that as far as any protection he needed, he had plenty of protection with the kind of protection that the congress had around him in the performance of his duty. it came to mr. carswell's attention, right immediately after he had testified, that his statements in that regard were inaccurate because of the change that had occurred that had not come to his attention. he called me and he said he would like to correct the record. mr. carswell, will you tell us now what the facts are as you have learned? mr. carswell. when i testified here before i was asked, i believe, what protection the secret service was providing the speaker. i said that we were providing protection comparable to that previously provided to the vice president. i did that on the basis of checking with chief rowley immediately after the assassination of president kennedy, and he told me at that time such protection was being provided to the speaker. i understood that that was the case the next day--because at that time we were not certain what was going on. i had not heard anything about it after that. and i assumed that the situation continued as it was immediately after the assassination. but that was not the case. as mr. rankin has stated, the speaker requested the secret service to discontinue assigning agents to him for protection, and we did what he requested. that is the present situation. mr. rankin. that is all i have. the chairman. very well. thank you, mr. carswell. well, gentlemen, i think that will be all today. the commission will adjourn now. (whereupon, at : p.m., the president's commission recessed.) _tuesday, june , _ testimony of bernard william weissman and robert g. klause the president's commission met at : a.m., on june , , at maryland avenue ne., washington, d.c. present were chief justice earl warren, chairman; senator john sherman cooper, representative hale boggs, representative gerald r. ford, and allen w. dulles, members. also present were j. lee rankin, general counsel; and albert e. jenner, jr., assistant counsel. testimony of bernard william weissman, accompanied by thomas a. flannery, esq. (members present: chief justice warren, representative ford, and mr. dulles.) the chairman. the commission will be in order. mr. flannery, you are here representing mr. weissman? mr. flannery. yes; your honor. the chairman. mr. jenner, would you mind making a brief statement of the testimony we expect to develop here? mr. jenner. yes; mr. chief justice. mr. bernard william weissman, who is the witness today, played some part in the preparation of and the publication of the advertisement in the dallas morning news on the d of november , and we will seek to develop the facts with respect to that. it has been marked as commission exhibit no. , entitled "welcome, mr. kennedy." the chairman. yes. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. jenner. mr. weissman's deposition was taken in part. he was not then represented by counsel, and he had some qualms about it and raised the issue, and as soon as it was raised we suspended the deposition. he appears this morning with mr. flannery as his counsel. mr. flannery, would you be good enough to state your full name? mr. flannery. thomas a. flannery. the chairman. and you are a practitioner in washington? mr. flannery. yes; your honor, i am a partner in the firm of hamilton and hamilton. the chairman. mr. weissman; will you raise your right hand and be sworn? do you solemnly swear the testimony you shall give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. weissman. i do. the chairman. will you be seated? mr. jenner will question. mr. jenner. your full name is bernard william weissman? mr. weissman. that is right. mr. jenner. and you now reside in new york city, do you not? mr. weissman. mount vernon, n.y. mr. jenner. would you give your address? mr. weissman. south columbus avenue, mount vernon, n.y. mr. jenner. you were born november , ? mr. weissman. that is right. mr. jenner. you are almost years old? mr. weissman. yes, sir. mr. jenner. all right. i would like some vital statistics, if i may, mr. weissman. are you presently employed? mr. weissman. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and where are you employed presently? mr. weissman. carpet corp. of america, clinton avenue, newark, n.j. mr. jenner. i see. is that connected in any fashion with the carpet co. by which you were employed in dallas, tex., last fall? mr. weissman. none whatsoever. mr. jenner. you are a native born american? mr. weissman. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and your folks are as well? mr. weissman. excuse me? mr. jenner. your folks are as well, mother and father? mr. weissman. yes. mr. jenner. and you have two brothers? mr. weissman. yes; i do. mr. jenner. and they likewise are native born americans? mr. weissman. yes, sir. mr. jenner. what is your marital status at the present time? mr. weissman. separated. mr. jenner. you were married or are married to jane byrnes weissman? mr. weissman. yes, sir. mr. jenner. she is a native born american, also? mr. weissman. yes. mr. jenner. you have been separated since when? mr. weissman. may , . mr. jenner. so you became separated from her before you went to dallas in the fall of ? mr. weissman. i was in the service at the time. (at this point, senator cooper entered the hearing room.) mr. jenner. now, are you acquainted with a gentleman by the name of larrie schmidt? mr. weissman. yes; i am. mr. jenner. when did you first meet him? mr. weissman. in munich, germany, about july or august of . mr. jenner. his middle name is henry. are you aware of that? mr. weissman. no; i am not aware of that. mr. jenner. where does he reside? mr. weissman. well, he was in dallas. i understand he has dropped from sight. i don't know where he is now. mr. jenner. was he residing in dallas in the fall of when you were there? mr. weissman. yes. mr. jenner. when did you arrive in dallas? mr. weissman. in dallas, on the th of november . mr. jenner. and was mr. schmidt aware that you were about to come to dallas? mr. weissman. yes. mr. jenner. and what was the purpose of your coming to dallas? mr. weissman. i will be as brief as possible. it was simply to follow through on plans that we had made in germany, in order to develop a conservative organization in dallas, under our leadership. mr. jenner. did that conservative organization, or your purpose in going to dallas, as well, have any business context in addition to politics? mr. weissman. i would say percent of the purpose was business and the other percent politics. we figured that only rich men can indulge full time in politics, so first we had to make some money before we could devote ourselves to the political end completely. mr. jenner. in short compass; would you tell the commission your background up to the time that you entered military service, and give us the date of the entry of military service? mr. weissman. do you mean as far as my schooling and where i lived before then? before i went into the service? mr. jenner. let's take it from high school. mr. weissman. i graduated from edison technical high school in mount vernon in june of , went to work for the nuclear development corp. as an experimental machinist in july of that year and left them in august of . i then went on the road with my brother, joe, and his wife, working as demonstrators or pitchmen, you might say, in department stores, selling some patent medicines and the like. did this for about--oh, that was from the th of november up until about april or may of . mr. jenner. your brother joe is a little bit older than you? mr. weissman. he is months older, yes. mr. jenner. and his given name is joe, and not joseph? mr. weissman. joseph. then--let's see--i went to work for the american schools of music, which my brother founded in jersey. mr. jenner. which brother? mr. weissman. my brother joe--in new jersey. and i stayed with him as his sales manager for a little over a year. then i went to work for encyclopedia americana, harvard classics division, as a district sales manager. i was with them about a year--until --i believe it was september of . i was starving, so i went to work for underwood olivetti, in newark, n.j., and i sold typewriters and calculators up until may of , at which time i quit, tried to go into business for myself in costume jewelry, formed a corporation known as jane williams co., inc., and in august of , i was drafted into the army. that was on august , . mr. jenner. you were honorably discharged from the army in august ? mr. weissman. august ; yes, sir. mr. jenner. what has been your father's occupation? mr. weissman. well, for about years he was plant superintendent for university loudspeakers in white plains, n.y. they moved to some place out west. he quit and went back to work with local in new york city, ibw. mr. jenner. your father's name is harry? mr. weissman. harry weissman; yes, sir. mr. jenner. do you reside with him now at south columbus avenue in mount vernon? mr. weissman. yes. mr. jenner. you were discharged from the army honorably? mr. weissman. yes. mr. jenner. you were married when, sir? mr. weissman. november , . mr. jenner. a new york girl? mr. weissman. yonkers, n.y. mr. jenner. and you have some children? mr. weissman. no. mr. jenner. you separated, as you have indicated. now, would you start from the army? before i get to that, you met larrie schmidt in the army? mr. weissman. yes; i did. mr. jenner. what other buddies did you have in the army with whom you again renewed your acquaintance when you were discharged from the army and went to dallas? mr. weissman. only one beside larrie. that was bill burley. william burley. mr. jenner. what contact did you have with mr. larrie schmidt and mr. burley after you left the army, which eventually brought you to dallas? state it in your own words and chronologically, please. mr. weissman. well, i got out of service on the th, and i spent the month of august looking for a job. during this time, i had been in contact with larrie. i had telephoned him once during august. things were pretty bad. i didn't have any money. as far as i could ascertain he was broke himself. there wasn't any percentage in going to dallas and not accomplishing anything. as a matter of fact, i had lost a good deal of confidence in larrie in the year that he left munich and was in dallas, and the letters i got from him--he seemed to have deviated from our original plan. i wasn't too hot about going. he didn't seem to be accomplishing anything, except where it benefited him. mr. jenner. you say he deviated from the original plan. what was the original plan? mr. weissman. well, the original plan was to stay away from various organizations and societies that were, let's call them, radical, and had a reputation as being such. mr. jenner. when you say radical, what do you mean? mr. weissman. i mean radical right. and i considered myself more of an idealist than a politician. larrie was more of a politician than an idealist. he went with the wind--which is good for him, i guess, and bad for me. in any case larrie wrote me easily a dozen letters imploring me to come down, telling me in one that he doesn't need me down there, but he would love to have my help because he can't accomplish anything without me, and in the next one saying, "forget it, i don't need you," and so forth. as the letters came, they went with the wind, depending on what he was doing personally. and along about the end of october, i had been in contact with bill--he was in baltimore, md., selling hearing aids. he wasn't getting anywhere. he was making a living. mr. jenner. up to this point each of you was barely making a living? mr. weissman. right. mr. jenner. and you had no capital? mr. weissman. no. mr. jenner. no funds of your own? mr. weissman. none at all. and i got in touch with bill. actually, i forgot how it was. he wrote me a letter and i wrote him a letter. in any case, it came about that i invited bill up to mount vernon, because he figured if there was any money to be made it would be made in new york, because this is a salesman's paradise. i invited bill to mount vernon. he came up about the last week of august. i am sorry--october of . and we set up about looking for work and trying to find him work, that is--i was working for the encyclopedia britannica, great books division, as a district manager in westchester county. so i more or less supported bill the best i could. i fed him and gave him a room to sleep in and so forth. in the meantime, larrie had up to a point--hadn't accomplished anything in the way that we could use gainfully or to our purposes in dallas. so there was really no reason to go down there--up until about, i guess, the th or th of october. mr. jenner. excuse me. why were you thinking of dallas at this time? mr. weissman. well, i kept getting these letters from larrie. i tried to forget about it, and he constantly reminded me. once or twice a week i would get a letter. and it was a question--i was almost obligated to go, because i had promised i would be there. and still having somewhat of a close relationship with larrie, through my promises, i sort of felt morally obligated to go down there. and, at the same time, it was new, different, exciting, it had a lot of promise for the future if it worked out. so adlai stevenson was down there in the latter part of october. (at this point, representative boggs entered the hearing room.) mr. weissman. and i didn't pay too much attention to this--until the evening of stevenson's speech at the dallas auditorium. and i got a long distance telephone call from larrie, and he explained what had happened--that stevenson had been struck by several individuals down there. mr. jenner. please call on your best recollection and tell us what he said to you. you recall that he made that telephone call? mr. weissman. yes. mr. jenner. you recognized his voice? mr. weissman. yes. mr. jenner. you are clear it was larrie schmidt? mr. weissman. that is right. mr. jenner. what did he say? mr. weissman. he said that big things are happening, and he went--this is before it hit the papers. he told me what had happened with adlai stevenson. mr. jenner. what did he say? mr. weissman. something like, "i think we are" he always speaks i this and i that. "i have made it, i have done it for us," something to this effect. in other words, this is not exactly his words. i don't recall his exact words. but this is essentially it. and that---- mr. jenner. did you say to him, "what do you mean you have made it for us?" mr. weissman. when he said, "i have made it for us," meaning larrie schmidt--meaning me and bill and whoever else was going to come down here---- mr. jenner. that was---- mr. weissman. bill burley. mr. jenner. what did you say when he made that remark? mr. weissman. i said "great." mr. jenner. what did it mean to you, sir? mr. weissman. what did it mean to me? mr. jenner. it is a generalization. mr. weissman. that is it. in other words, i didn't really know what to think. i had to go along with him, because i didn't know anything about it, aside from what he told me. and he said, "if we are going to take advantage of the situation, or if you are," meaning me, "you better hurry down here and take advantage of the publicity, and at least become known among these various rightwingers, because this is the chance we have been looking for to infiltrate some of these organizations and become known," in other words, go along with the philosophy we had developed in munich. mr. jenner. could i go back a little bit, please. you received a telephone call from mr. schmidt. mr. weissman. yes. mr. jenner. at that moment, you knew nothing about the adlai stevenson incident, is that correct? mr. weissman. i had received a letter from him several weeks before saying that--if you will wait just a minute, i think i might have the letter with me. mr. jenner. all right. while you are looking, what was your rank when you were discharged? mr. weissman. pfc. mr. jenner. did you reach any higher rank when you were in the service? mr. weissman. no; this is a letter i received on october , . mr. jenner. for purposes of identification, we will mark that as commission exhibit no. . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. jenner. may i approach the witness, mr. chief justice? the chairman. yes; go right ahead. mr. jenner. that is marked only for identification for the moment. mr. flannery. the record will reflect it is a three-page letter. mr. jenner. thank you. marked commission exhibit no. , is that not correct? mr. weissman. yes; that is correct. now, in exhibit no. , the letter i received from larrie on october --that was typed on october , , and mailed on october . mr. jenner. you are looking at the envelope in which the letter was enclosed when you received it? mr. weissman. that is correct. and he states in the last paragraph of his letter in a postscript, "my brother has begun working as an aide to general walker. he is being paid full time, et cetera. watch your newspaper for news of huge demonstrations here in dallas on october and in connection with u.n.-day and adlai stevenson speech here. plans already made, strategy being carried out." this was the only advance notice i had of this. and i didn't give it too much thought, because he had said many things like it before, just to build something up, and nothing ever came of it. mr. jenner. is that document signed? mr. weissman. no; it is not. mr. jenner. does it bear a typed signature? mr. weissman. yes. mr. jenner. did you have occasion to speak with mr. schmidt respecting the contents of that letter at any time subsequent to your receiving it? mr. weissman. i don't recall. mr. jenner. did you ever talk with him about having received that particular letter, that he acknowledged having sent to you? mr. weissman. yes; as a matter of fact, i was pretty worried about his brother becoming involved with general walker, and i thought it might give us a black eye. mr. jenner. and what did you do--call mr. schmidt or talk with him on that subject? mr. weissman. i don't recall if i spoke with him, or if i wrote it to him in a letter. i don't recall. mr. jenner. but you had occasion to confirm the fact that the letter now identified as commission exhibit no. was written by mr. schmidt and mailed to you in an envelope, which we will mark as commission exhibit no. -a? (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. -a for identification.) mr. jenner. did you hear my question? mr. weissman. repeat it, please. (the question, as recorded, was read by the reporter.) mr. weissman. yes. mr. jenner. so that when you had your telephone conversation which you were in the course of relating, with mr. schmidt, you were aware when he made the exclamation which you have described, of that to which he was then referring--that is, the stevenson incident? mr. weissman. yes. mr. jenner. was there anything else in mr. schmidt's letter that disturbed you? mr. weissman. i received so many. would it be permissible to--excuse me. mr. jenner, would it be permissible to read this letter into the record? mr. jenner. my trouble is, mr. weissman, and mr. flannery--i haven't seen the letter. mr. chief justice---- the chairman. i suppose mr. jenner could see the letter for a moment, couldn't he? mr. weissman. definitely; yes, sir. mr. jenner. mr. flannery, would you be good enough to pass it up? (at this point, representative ford withdrew from the hearing room.) mr. weissman. you see, up to the point of that letter--excuse me. mr. jenner. mr. chief justice, it is quite apparent to me, from glancing through the letter, that this is a letter that we--in connection with mr. weissman's testimony, that we would like to offer in evidence in due course. and, with that in mind, mr. weissman, it will not be necessary for you to read paragraphs from the letter, unless in the course of your testimony you feel it will round out your testimony and serve to refresh your recollection as to events you might wish to relate. mr. weissman. i would like to take a look at it now. (at this point, representative ford reentered the hearing room.) mr. jenner. ready? mr. weissman. yes. mr. jenner. mr. reporter, would you be good enough to read, let us say, the last question and answer of the witness? (the question and answer, as recorded, was read by the reporter.) mr. jenner. the point i was making, mr. weissman, was that when you received the telephone call about which you were testifying, in which mr. schmidt exclaimed, "i have made it for us," or words to that effect, you were then aware of that to which he was referring, at least in general? mr. weissman. yes. mr. jenner. so that was the reason why you didn't ask him to elaborate upon what he meant by, "i have made it for us"? mr. weissman. right. that is right. mr. jenner. and that was the fact that he, as you understood it, am i correct in saying, had had something to do with the organization of the picketing or other demonstrations at the time that mr. stevenson made his visit to dallas? mr. weissman. well, at the time i was almost--larrie led me to believe that he had organized the whole thing. and it transpired when i got to dallas that i found that he had led a group of university of dallas students in quiet picketing near the entrance to the auditorium, and didn't engage in any physical violence of any sort. mr. jenner. but up to the time that you arrived in dallas, you were under the impression that he had had a more extensive part? mr. weissman. this is what he led me to believe. in other words, he was trying to--he wanted to get me to dallas in the worst way. and he wanted it to look like he was on the hot seat and he would be there unless i came down to help him. in other words, he is throwing my obligation at me. and trying to convince me in various ways, as i mentioned, to come down there, so we can get moving on what we had planned in munich. mr. jenner. did you receive a letter from him dated october , , a copy of which i have marked as commission exhibit no. , and i tender to you. you may have the original among your papers. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. weissman. yes; i did receive this letter, exhibit no. , from larrie, about the th of october. mr. jenner. and, gentlemen of the commission, this is a letter dated, as the witness has stated--it is addressed to, "dear bernie and bill," and i assume bill is---- mr. weissman. bill burley. mr. jenner. he was then staying with you in new york? mr. weissman. right. mr. jenner. and it is signed larrie. by the way, do you have the original of this letter with you? mr. weissman. i don't think so. let me see. no; as a matter of fact, i believe the situation was when i gave the letter to the fbi, they asked me if i needed it back right away, and i said no--i didn't see any value in it, frankly. and then i spoke with mr. reedy, the agent who had conducted the investigation at the fbi headquarters in new york, and he said, "do you want the letter?" and i said, "i don't particularly need it," and i don't recall if i ever got it back. mr. jenner. all right. but the document which has been marked with an exhibit number is a true and correct copy of the letter you received from larrie schmidt? mr. weissman. it seems to be; yes, sir. mr. jenner. now, in that letter, there is a reference to cusa in capital letters. what is cusa, what was cusa? what was its genesis? mr. weissman. well, cusa, the letters stand for conservatism usa, for lack of a better name. larrie had originally founded this himself--as far as i know he had originally founded this himself in munich some time in . mr. jenner. you mean it was a concept of his? mr. weissman. i don't know if it was his. but i was led to believe the concept was his; and when i became associated with him, almost a year after he had started to develop this organization---- mr. jenner. and while you were still in the army? mr. weissman. while i was still in the army; right. representative boggs. what was your rank in the army? mr. weissman. private, first class. representative boggs. that is when you completed your service? mr. weissman. yes; at the time i was pfc, also. representative boggs. how long were you in the army? mr. weissman. two years. representative boggs. when you were separated you were private, first class? mr. weissman. that is right. here is how it came about. i had been in the field on an army training test. and i had been discussing just political views, foreign policy especially. mr. dulles. is this germany, now? mr. weissman. yes; this is germany. mr. jenner. who was the overall commander in germany at that time? mr. weissman. the overall commander? mr. jenner. was general walker one of the commanders at that time? mr. weissman. no; he had been removed at that time. in any case, he would have been about or miles--he was based in landshut, germany. in any case, i was on this army training test with my company, mp company, and i was talking to the company clerk--he had a book. we just got onto a discussion of politics, just generally. and i expounded some views on foreign policy, and where i agreed or disagreed. and i went into some great detail. and he said, "gee, if i didn't know better i would say it is larrie speaking." and i said, "what do you mean?" and he went into this cusa organization. he was at that time a partner in cusa. it was set up as a business. representative boggs. what does cusa mean? mr. weissman. conservatism usa. representative boggs. what was mr. schmidt's rank? mr. weissman. he was specialist fourth class, sp- , and he was in charge of public relations for armed forces recreation centers. mr. jenner. how old a man is he? mr. weissman. larrie is or . mr. jenner. about the same age as yours? mr. weissman. yes. mr. jenner. and mr. burley? mr. weissman. twenty-nine now, i believe. mr. jenner. a little older--about years older than you and mr. schmidt. mr. weissman. in there. a year and a half, years, yes. mr. jenner. excuse me. what was his rank? mr. weissman. corporal. at the time that i met bill he was a pfc. in fact, bill burley didn't become really involved in this until, i would say, or months before we left germany. we left there about the same time, we were discharged about the same time; and, anyway, i was talking to the company clerk, norman baker, who was a partner in cusa. i didn't know this at the time; but he just said he wanted to introduce me to somebody. mr. jenner. what was the rank of the company clerk? mr. weissman. at that time--i think he was the only corporal company clerk in the army. and he introduced me to larrie several weeks later after we had returned from the field. they tried to pull a big snow job, saying public relations and so on and so forth, just to sort of impress me, and they did. they worked very well together; and, in any case, i became involved in it. i don't recollect the step-by-step involvement--just that i jumped in with both feet, because i liked the idea. mr. jenner. this was conservatism usa, and it consisted of an idea at this particular time? mr. weissman. right. mr. jenner. and associated with that idea were these people, larrie schmidt, yourself, was burley---- mr. weissman. at that time, i don't think so. mr. jenner. but he did become? mr. weissman. later. mr. jenner. and the company clerk--what was his name? mr. weissman. norman baker. mr. jenner. and yourself--what was that--five? were there any others? mr. weissman. there were others, but it was the sort of thing where they were involved but not involved. they were just sort of going along for the ride, because it was interesting, and you might say a little diverse from the humdrum army life. mr. jenner. was cusa ever organized formally in the sense of corporate organization or drafting of partnership papers and registration under the assumed name act in texas? mr. weissman. in texas; no. mr. jenner. i take it it was organized? mr. weissman. yes; it was. mr. jenner. as a corporation or partnership? mr. weissman. as a partnership. mr. jenner. in what state? mr. weissman. in munich, germany. mr. jenner. i see. and that was a sort of declaration among you? mr. weissman. it was a written declaration; yes. mr. jenner. who drafted that? mr. weissman. we did--that is, we called ourselves--the hangers-on were identified as the outer circle, and the partners were the inner circle. this was just for ease of identification. this, i think, would be the easiest way to really express it. and the partners, the five partners, were the inner circle, the leaders of this organization; and---- the chairman. gentlemen, may i interrupt for just a minute? i have an appointment i must keep at the court. congressman ford, will you preside, please? representative ford. surely. (at this point, chief justice warren withdrew from the hearing room.) representative ford. will you proceed, please, mr. jenner. mr. jenner. thank you. in short compass, tell us the objectives of cusa. mr. weissman. well, the objectives of cusa were substantially to set up a political business organization. we used a rough comparison with ford and the ford foundation as an example. the ford foundation would be cusa, conservatism usa, and the ford would be ambus, or american business. mr. jenner. what was ambus? mr. weissman. american business. this was the business half of the political organization. mr. jenner. this was to be a combination of business and politics? mr. weissman. right. we were going to use the business end---- mr. jenner. which you called ambus? mr. weissman. that is right. mr. jenner. that would be---- mr. weissman. american business, or american businesses. mr. jenner. i don't get the initials. a-b-u-s? mr. weissman. a-m-b-u-s--american business. mr. jenner. all right. mr. weissman. and we were trying to develop, in our own minds, without actually doing it at the time, ways to build up various businesses that would support us and at the same time support our political activities. mr. jenner. all right. could i characterize it this way--that a material objective of this group or partnership was ultimately a self-interest in business? mr. weissman. no. mr. jenner. coupled with a political arm which was to aid or assist in the business, and each was to feed the other? mr. weissman. the business arm was to be developed mainly to feed the political arm. (at this point, representative ford withdrew from the hearing room.) mr. weissman. we were mainly interested in the political end. at least this is my feeling on it. mainly interested in the political end. and the business end, while, of course, we hoped it would succeed, in my mind was merely to support us politically. (at this point, representative ford reentered the hearing room.) mr. jenner. all right. now, as of this moment, mr. weissman, there were the five of you only. there were no others who were part of the combination business-political group? mr. weissman. we left out one man, one of the original men. his name was james moseley. mr. jenner. was he a gi with you? mr. weissman. no; he was an american civilian. his father was a major--is a major in the army. mr. jenner. and was he an acquaintance of yours? mr. weissman. yes. mr. jenner. prior to this time? mr. weissman. not prior to this. i met him when i went into the organization. mr. jenner. i see. was he an acquaintance of mr. schmidt's? mr. weissman. yes. mr. jenner. how did he get in, is what i am getting at? how did he get into this little group here? mr. weissman. they all hung around the same bar. mr. jenner. what bar? mr. weissman. the gastatte lukullus. representative boggs. how far was that from the bar where hitler used to gather? mr. weissman. a couple of miles, i think. mr. jenner. it is a bar in munich? mr. weissman. yes. it is a gi guest house. mr. jenner. this man you have now mentioned, moseley, was a civilian in germany? mr. weissman. he was a civilian; yes. mr. jenner. how did he come to be in munich? was his father stationed there? mr. weissman. his father was stationed there. but he was also employed by rambler--he was selling ramblers. mr. jenner. what is mr. moseley's hometown? mr. weissman. yes. mr. jenner. what is mr. mosley's hometown? mr. weissman. i believe it is new york. i am not sure. mr. jenner. how old a man is he? mr. weissman. he is a pretty young fellow. he is about . mr. jenner. now, have you named all of you who were the nucleus of this group? mr. weissman. to my recollection, yes. mr. jenner. had you finished your statement as to the general--the general statement as to the purpose of this organization which consisted of the two arms? mr. weissman. not completely. i think what might bear directly is we had planned while in munich that in order to accomplish our goals, to try to do it from scratch would be almost impossible, because it would be years before we could even get the funds to develop a powerful organization. so we had planned to infiltrate various rightwing organizations and by our own efforts become involved in the hierarchy of these various organizations and eventually get ourselves elected or appointed to various higher offices in these organizations, and by doing this bring in some of our own people, and eventually take over the leadership of these organizations, and at that time having our people in these various organizations, we would then, you might say, call a conference and have them unite, and while no one knew of the existence of cusa aside from us, we would then bring them all together, unite them, and arrange to have it called cusa. mr. jenner. you never accomplished this, did you? mr. weissman. almost. here is how far we did get. larrie had--and this was according to plan--the first organization we planned to infiltrate was the nic, national indignation convention, headed by frank mcgee in dallas. about a week or so after larrie got to dallas he got himself a job with the nic, as one of the very few paid men. this didn't last too long, because a few weeks after that the nic went under. and we had also--in other words, we had planned to use these organizations as vehicles to accomplish---- mr. jenner. keep going on those details of your infiltration. mr. weissman. all right. we had planned to infiltrate these various rightwing organizations. mr. jenner. you mentioned one. mr. weissman. the nic. the young americans for freedom. we succeeded there. mr jenner. what organization is that? mr. weissman. the young americans for freedom? this was an organization essentially of conservative youths, college students, and if i recall i think the most they ever accomplished was running around burning baskets from yugoslavia. mr. jenner. where was it based? mr. weissman. this is southwest. regional headquarters was in dallas, tex., box . mr. jenner. and the earlier organization, the organization you mentioned a moment ago, nic--where was that based? mr. weissman. dallas. mr. jenner. all right. what is the next one? mr. weissman. we had also discussed getting some people in with general walker, getting some people into the john birch society. mr. jenner. stick with general walker for a moment. to what extent were you able to infiltrate, as you call it, general walker's group? mr. weissman. well, this was rather a fiasco. larrie's brother, as i mentioned in the letter--larrie's brother went to work for general walker. mr. jenner. what was his name? mr. weissman. i don't know his first name. but larrie led me to believe his brother was some guy. his brother is about . and the only thing i ever heard from larrie about his brother was good; and when he mentioned that his brother had joined the walker organization, i figured this is another step in the right direction. in other words, he was solidifying his argument as to why i should come to dallas. mr. jenner. and this is what he told you? mr. weissman. right. so when i got to dallas, i found that larrie's brother drank too much, and he had--well, i considered him a moron. he didn't have any sense at all. he was very happy with $ a week and room and board that general walker was giving him as his chauffeur and general aide. and so i tossed that out the window that we would never get into the walker organization this way. mr. jenner. this man's name, by any chance, was not volkmar? mr. weissman. this name is entirely unfamiliar to me. never heard it before. senator cooper. could you identify the walker organization? you keep speaking of the walker organization. mr. weissman. general edwin walker. mr. jenner. general edwin a. walker? mr. weissman. yes. mr. jenner. did you ever meet him? mr. weissman. no; i never have. representative ford. how did you infiltrate the young americans for freedom, and what led you to believe you had been successful? mr. weissman. well, larrie had been named executive secretary of the dallas chapter of the young americans for freedom. and another man--his name is in one of these letters somewhere--i don't recall it offhand--who was brought into cusa by larrie, was named chairman or vice chairman--vice chairman. and the only other move that we had to make in order to take control of dallas young americans for freedom would have been to get rid of the chairman, who was anti-larrie schmidt. he was absolutely no help to us. and this was on its way to accomplishment. but for some reason or another, there was some sort of an argument. i am still not clear on what happened. i wasn't there. i just can take it secondhand from larrie. a friend of larrie's had come to dallas--this was larry jones, another partner in---- mr. jenner. he is mentioned in some of these interviews. did you meet larry jones? mr. weissman. i didn't meet him in dallas; no. he was gone before i got there. but larry had come to dallas, he had stayed a few weeks, had made friends with these people, and i had advocated many and many a time--i saw through larry the first time i met him--is to get rid of this guy, because he was not going to do us any good. mr. jenner. you did meet jones? mr. weissman. in the army; yes. mr. jenner. you met larry jones in the army? mr. weissman. yes. we were all on the same post. mr. jenner. mr. chairman, if you will permit, i would like to go back to that at this moment. representative ford. surely. mr. jenner. this was another man. you hadn't mentioned him before. mr. weissman. i didn't? i thought i did. mr. jenner. what rank was he? mr. weissman. sp- , specialist- . mr. jenner. that wasn't the company clerk? mr. weissman. no. larry worked for headquarters. he was in communications--the scramblers and so forth. mr. jenner. seeking to scramble broadcasts? mr. weissman. no. in other words, they would send out the secret messages and so forth from commander to commander and so on. mr. dulles. these were military messages? mr. weissman. yes. mr. jenner. how old a man was larry jones? mr. weissman. larry--he looked . i think he is . mr. jenner. do you have the charter or partnership agreement of cusa with you? mr. weissman. yes; i do. mr. jenner. i wonder if i could see that. mr. weissman. sure. mr. jenner. mr. chairman; the document consists of two pages which have been identified as commission exhibit no. . it is entitled "corporate structure of american business, inc.," naming as incorporators or partners, larrie h. schmidt, larry c. jones, bernie weissman, james l. moseley, norman f. baker. it purports to be signed in those names as well on the second page. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. jenner. i notice on the first page that after each of those names there appear to be some initials. are those the initials of those respective men? mr. weissman. that is right. mr. jenner. and were those initials placed on there in your presence? mr. weissman. yes; they were. mr. jenner. the signatures that appear under each of those names or above each of those names on the second page, those are the signatures of those men, including your own? mr. weissman. that is right. mr. jenner. were they placed on there in your presence? mr. weissman. yes, they were. representative ford. do you want that admitted at this time, mr. jenner? mr. jenner. i was going to offer these documents in sequence, if it suits the convenience of the chairman. if we may return now, mr. weissman, please, to your efforts to infiltrate various conservative groups---- senator cooper. may i ask a question there? i may have to leave in a few minutes. was there any time when your organization drew up a list of organizations, of other organizations, that it wanted to infiltrate? mr. weissman. yes. mr. jenner. do you have that list with you? mr. weissman. i don't know. i have lost an awful lot of it. i might. mr. jenner. would you look, please? mr. weissman. no; i don't have it. senator cooper. may i ask, then--can he name from memory the organizations? mr. jenner. using your recollection, sir, and it appears to be very good, if i may compliment you---- mr. weissman. thank you. mr. jenner. would you do your best to respond to senator cooper's question by naming those various groups? mr. weissman. yes. one was the nic. mr. jenner. when you use initials, will you spell out what the initials mean? mr. weissman. national indignation convention, headed by frank mcgee, in dallas, tex. young americans for freedom, which encompassed the southwest. the initials are yaf. mr. jenner. located in dallas? mr. weissman. regional headquarters in dallas. john birch society. mr. jenner. where was the john birch--was there a chapter or headquarters in dallas? mr. weissman. there are several chapters in dallas; yes. and as far as i can recollect, that is as far as we went. representative boggs. what did you hope to accomplish by this infiltration, as you call it? mr. weissman. well, i will be very blunt. representative boggs. that is what i would like for you to be. mr. weissman. we were, you might say--at least i personally--this is my reason--i was sick and tired of seeing america as a weak sister all the time. and this is especially in the field of foreign affairs, where it seemed that our administration, whether it is the eisenhower or the kennedy administration, both of them, had no set, stable foreign policy. we were constantly losing ground all over the world. we were going to conference tables with everything to lose and nothing to gain, and coming away by losing. and we hoped by developing a powerful political organization we could exert some influence on the government and eventually even put, you might say, our man in the white house, let's say, in order to obtain a stable policy--because we felt that the communists were gaining ground all over the place, we were doing nothing but losing. representative boggs. did you have a candidate for the presidency? mr. weissman. excuse me? representative boggs. did you have a candidate--you said your man. mr. weissman. i wouldn't say we had a candidate. we had looked to barry goldwater as personifying mr. conservative. and we had stated in writing, though, that we would support him for the presidency, but we were not obligated to support him or any other individual. representative boggs. are you still in this business? mr. weissman. no. representative boggs. what are you doing now? mr. weissman. i am a salesman, i sell carpets. representative boggs. you have given up this goal? mr. weissman. well, if i had money i didn't know what to do with, i would get back into it--only i would do it myself, because i found that in order to accomplish these aims--i mentioned before i considered myself an idealist. i found in order to accomplish these goals i had to against my will prostitute my ideals in order to further the general cause of the organization. representative boggs. what ideals did you find you had to prostitute? mr. weissman. i personally didn't want to associate with the john birch society. representative boggs. you did not want to? mr. weissman. no; i did not. representative boggs. why didn't you? mr. weissman. well; they are rather extreme, i thought. i didn't like some of the things they were doing. for example, i didn't want to spend my days and nights sneaking into bathrooms around the country, pasting up "impeach earl warren" stickers. representative boggs. is that what they do? mr. weissman. this is part of their program. and i can't see any use in it, frankly. in other words, it is just little things like this. plus the fact that after i got to dallas, i found that most of the people who are professing anti-communism, they were, they were definitely anti-communists. but, at the same time, it seemed to me to be nothing but a conglomeration of racists, and bigots and so forth. representative boggs. what do you mean by that--bigots? mr. weissman. they are anti-everything, it seems. representative boggs. are you jewish? mr. weissman. yes; i am. representative boggs. were they anti-jewish? mr. weissman. too many of them, yes. it was requested at one time that i change my name. representative boggs. is that right? mr. weissman. that is right. representative boggs. what did you tell them? mr. weissman. excuse me? representative boggs. what did you tell them? did you change your name? mr. weissman. no, sir. representative boggs. well, did you find this request unusual? mr. weissman. yes; i did, as a matter of fact, i got pretty mad. representative boggs. when you were in germany, did you find sometimes, particularly in munich, as long as you opened this line of replies, that some of the nazi-alleged anticommunism was also associated with their racist policies? mr. weissman. in what vein are you using nazi? representative boggs. well, of course, you know they exterminated quite a few members of your religion in germany. mr. weissman. yes. representative boggs. that is a fact; is it not? mr. weissman. yes; it is. representative boggs. i am using nazi in the normal term of state dictatorship, with all that it implies. i am sure you have worked on foreign policy, you understand what i mean. mr. weissman. i think you are giving me a little too much credit. but i think i can answer your question. representative boggs. i would like for you to. mr. weissman. at no time did i, and to my knowledge, in germany, did we consider ourselves fascists or nazis. as a matter of fact, in my every conversation, and everything i had written---- representative boggs. i didn't ask you whether you had considered yourself as a fascist---- mr. weissman. or any of my associates, sir. representative boggs. or any of your associates. i asked you if in your study of events in germany, having been stationed there, that you didn't soon associate, or that you didn't see some association in your mind of the alleged so-called extreme right with naziism. mr. weissman. no. in fact, i never thought--i thought of the extremists as superpatriots. i had never really defined the term fascist or nazi in my own mind---- representative boggs. of course, you realize that members of your religion in germany were described as traitors, treasonable, and communists. and i presume that on the other side of the coin those making the accusation classified themselves as superpatriots. mr. weissman. this is quite true. but you are getting into a field right now that at the time---- representative boggs. were you surprised when you discovered this anti-jewish feeling? you must have been somewhat, shall i say, disappointed when one of your associates asked you to change your name. i would think that was right insulting. mr. weissman. it was downright insulting, as a matter of fact. no, i wasn't surprised. now---- mr. dulles. did you have something on this in your letter? i noticed you looking through that letter a minute ago. i thought maybe you had something on this very point in your letter. mr. weissman. yes. i received a letter from larrie, while i was in germany. mr. jenner. is this another document to which no reference has been made? mr. weissman. i am not sure whether this is the one i want to read from. but this letter is an answer that i wrote larrie. mr. jenner. excuse me, sir. i want to put an exhibit number on that. this will be exhibit--commission exhibit no. . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) representative boggs. i would like for a moment to pursue this a bit. this gentleman is telling us something that i think is very significant. you have a letter there about changing your name? mr. weissman. this is my answer. i would like to read just this one paragraph. representative boggs. who was this addressed to? mr. weissman. this was addressed to larrie schmidt. representative boggs. did he ask you to change your name? mr. weissman. yes. representative boggs. he was your associate? mr. weissman. he didn't ask me directly. he had written a letter to larry jones, and larry jones gave me the letter. mr. jenner. where was larry jones at this time? mr. weissman. in germany. mr. jenner. you are now reading from commission exhibit no.---- mr. weissman. exhibit no. . this is dated munich, germany, january , . (at this point, senator cooper withdrew from the hearing room.) mr. jenner. it is addressed to whom? mr. weissman. larrie schmidt. mr. jenner. and i take it it is your letter to larrie schmidt. mr. weissman. yes, sir. mr. jenner. did you dispatch the letter? mr. weissman. yes; i did. mr. jenner. and is that a true and correct copy of the original that you did dispatch to larrie schmidt? mr. weissman. erasures and all; yes, sir. mr. jenner. and did you become aware of the fact subsequently to your mailing that letter that he received it? mr. weissman. yes. mr. jenner. you had occasion to discuss it with him? mr. weissman. he sent me a letter. mr. jenner. he responded? mr. weissman. yes; he did. mr. jenner. all right. do you have his response? mr. weissman. i don't know. i have his response. i don't know if it is with me. representative boggs. let's first have what he said. mr. weissman. paragraph on the second page, "larrie, as relates to the political goals of cusa and the methods of achieving them, i (not alone)"--meaning bill burley--"do not wholly support your ideas as concerning the nic and related or affiliated organizations. it seems to us that this type of organization smacks of hypocrisy. i feel that any type of organization that we choose to support or begin to take support from should be free from the racism and prejudice in general that is rampant among the high officers of the nic. it should be obvious to you that once we associate ourselves with these people, we may acquire a personal reputation that can never be lived down. i am sure you have considered this yourself, because i remember we had talked of it several times. larrie, let me remind you that my zeal has not slackened, but that i did not want to compromise myself or my ideals for the sake of accomplishing our goals a year ahead of time. i know and you know that we can do a fantastic job once we get together again with or without these organizations." representative boggs. what do you say about your name, though? mr. weissman. about my name? representative boggs. yes. changing your name. mr. weissman. i didn't refer to it directly. in other words, in the letter i received from larrie, he said--he mentioned that the nic, the leadership, frank mcgee, was anti-jewish, and it might be best if i changed my name in order to bring myself down to where i can associate with these people. (at this point, senator cooper reentered the hearing room.) representative boggs. do you have a copy of that letter? mr. weissman. let me take a look here. with your permission, i would like to read into the record a paragraph---- mr. jenner. to what are you referring now, sir? mr. weissman. this is a letter sent by larrie schmidt to larry jones. mr. jenner. and it is in longhand, is it? mr. weissman. yes; it is. mr. jenner. and do you recognize the handwriting? mr. weissman. it is larrie's. mr. jenner. it consists of seven pages, which we will mark commission exhibit no. . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. jenner. before you read from the letter, how did you come into possession of the letter? mr. weissman. larry jones gave it to me. mr. jenner. over in germany? mr. weissman. over in germany; yes, sir. mr. jenner. and the envelope which i now have in my hand, from which you extracted the letter, is postmarked dallas, tex., november . representative boggs. what year? mr. jenner. . is that the envelope in which the letter, commission exhibit no. , was received by mr. jones? i notice the letter is addressed to mr. jones, sp- larry jones. mr. weissman. yes, sir. mr. jenner. we will mark that as commission exhibit no. -a--that is, the envelope. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. -a for identification.) mr. weissman. on the third page, last paragraph, he has marked "one bad thing, though. frank gives me the impression of being rather anti-semetic. he is catholic. suggest bernie convert to christianity, and i mean it." "we must all return to church. these people here are religious bugs. also no liberal talk whatsoever--none." larrie had a flare for the dramatic. mr. dulles. when he mentions "these people" who does he mean? mr. weissman. the nic. and at this point i was ready to drop out of the organization completely, but thought better of it, because i am a perennial optimist. i felt once i got down there--it is like changing your wife after you marry her. you figure everything will work out. representative ford. this cusa organization in munich--did it have any local munich affiliation at all? i mean german affiliation? mr. weissman. no; none whatsoever. strictly an american proposition. representative ford. all among gi's, with the one exception of---- mr. weissman. gi's or, one or two hangers-on, american civilians over there. senator cooper. may i ask a question, mr. chairman? you stated at one point in your testimony that you did not care to become associated with some of the organizations you had discussed. you named the john birch--you thought it was too extreme. yet you stated earlier that it was your intention to infiltrate these organizations. how do you explain this inconsistency? mr. weissman. it is difficult to explain. the situation being as fluid as it was--you find that without anything solid to go on, you have got to change your stand a little bit in order to just get started. senator cooper. let me ask you something else. you said that you all had thought that to be able to fully pursue your political objectives, you needed to have a certain financial independence, is that correct? mr. weissman. yes. senator cooper. did you intend to get some financial support from these organizations, in addition to political support? mr. weissman. no; not directly. we felt that after we had accomplished our goal--this is assuming we would accomplish our goal--any treasury that they had through membership dues or what-have-you would then be a common treasury, a cusa treasury. senator cooper. you had the idea that you could infiltrate and get control of these organizations, then you would have a source of revenue through their treasury, or through whatever treasury you were able to build up? mr. weissman. yes. senator cooper. did you think, also, in terms of contributions to these organizations from individuals? mr. weissman. it had been discussed--never very completely. it had just been brought up. but we didn't know exactly what we were going to do, really. senator cooper. was there any discussion about the support of these organizations--about the financial support of these organizations, that they might be a source of funds? mr. weissman. you mean from individuals who would contribute? senator cooper. yes. mr. weissman. yes. senator cooper. was there any discussions as to what individuals were supporting these organizations? mr. weissman. just those that we had occasionally read about in life or look or time--people like hunt, h. l. hunt. mr. jenner. of dallas, tex.? mr. weissman. of dallas, tex.--the oilman. in other words, people who are known to be conservative, sympathized with the conservative philosophy. and we didn't know at the time--in fact, i still don't know personally whether or not they do contribute. i just know it is said they do. but whether they do or not, i have no idea. representative boggs. it has been established, i presume, who paid for this newspaper advertisement. mr. weissman. well, this is something else. i am still not sure of who paid for it. mr. jenner. the newspaper advertisement is commission exhibit no. . representative boggs. did you bring the money in to pay for it? mr. weissman. yes; i did. representative boggs. do you know where you got it? mr. weissman. i know where i got it. but i don't know where he got it from. i got it from joe grinnan. mr. jenner. joseph p. grinnan, room , wilson building, dallas, tex., independent oil operator in dallas. representative boggs. how did you happen to get it from him? mr. weissman. well, joe was the volunteer coordinator for the john birch society. representative boggs. and how did he hand it to you--in a check or cash? mr. weissman. in cash. representative boggs. how much was it? mr. weissman. it was a total of $ , , i believe. we had $ bills one day, and the balance the following day. now, as far as i know, joe didn't put any of this money up personally, because i know it took him days to collect it. representative boggs. do you think you know where he got it from? mr. weissman. i don't know. i really don't know. representative boggs. he didn't tell you where he got it from? mr. weissman. no; he didn't. representative boggs. but you are convinced in your own mind that it wasn't his money? mr. weissman. yes; because he seemed to be--he didn't seem to be too solvent. representative boggs. did you solicit him for this money? mr. weissman. no; i didn't. representative boggs. who did? mr. weissman. i believe--well, i believe larrie did. i think the idea for the ad originated with larrie and joe. representative boggs. and larrie solicited the money? mr. weissman. no; i don't think so. i think it was joe who originally broached the subject. representative boggs. how did you happen to end up with the money? mr. weissman. this was an expression of confidence, you might say, that joe grinnan had in me. representative boggs. did you write the copy? mr. weissman. i helped. representative boggs. who else? mr. weissman. larrie. representative boggs. so joe grinnan gave you the money, and you and larrie wrote the copy? mr. weissman. we wrote the copy before that. representative boggs. and then you paid for it. what was this committee? are you the chairman of that committee? mr. weissman. well, this is an ad hoc committee. i think we finally thought of the name--as a matter of fact, we decided on it the same morning i went down to place the original proof of the ad. representative boggs. what do you mean an ad hoc committee? mr. weissman. it was formed strictly for the purpose of having a name to put in the paper. representative boggs. did you have many of these ad hoc committees? mr. weissman. this is the only one that i was involved in; that i know of. representative boggs. were there others? mr. weissman. not that i know of. representative boggs. did you ever ask joe where this money came from? mr. weissman. no; joe was pretty secretive. i frankly didn't want to know. i was interested, but not that interested. and it didn't--it would have been a breach of etiquette to start questioning him, it seemed. representative boggs. have you ever heard of h. r. bright, independent oil operator? mr. weissman. no. representative boggs. did you ever hear of edgar crissey? mr. weissman. no. representative boggs. did you ever hear of nelson bunker hunt? mr. weissman. yes; that is h. l. hunt's son. i knew that he had gotten it from three or four different people, because he told me he had to get $ here and $ there, but he did not say where. mr. jenner. the "he" is mr. grinnan? mr. weissman. grinnan; right. representative boggs. that is all, mr. chairman. mr. dulles. did you suggest that this advertisement had been drafted before he collected the money? mr. weissman. yes. mr. dulles. and you used this advertisement as the basis for the collection of the money, or was it used for this purpose, as far as you know? mr. weissman. as far as i know; yes. (at this point, representative boggs withdrew from the hearing room.) mr. weissman. may i see the ad for a moment? there are a few things i would like to point out in this. mr. jenner. give the exhibit number, please. mr. weissman. it is exhibit no. . mr. jenner. tell us the genesis of the advertisement, the black border, the context, the text, the part which mr. grinnan played, you played, and mr. schmidt played in drafting it, how it came about, what you did, in your own words. how the idea arose in the first place--and then just go forward. mr. weissman. well, after the stevenson incident, it was felt that a demonstration would be entirely out of order, because we didn't want anything to happen in the way of physical violence to president kennedy when he came to dallas. but we thought that the conservatives in dallas--i was told--were a pretty downtrodden lot after that, because they were being oppressed by the local liberals, because of the stevenson incident. we felt we had to do something to build up the morale of the conservative element, in dallas. so we hit upon the idea of the ad. mr. jenner. would you please tell us who you mean? mr. weissman. me and larrie, larrie and joe, and then all of us together. mr. jenner. all right. mr. weissman. and i originally--well, i took the copy of the ad to the dallas morning news. mr. jenner. please, sir--we wanted the genesis from the beginning. how it came about, who participated in drafting it. mr. weissman. about a week or so before placing the ad, larrie and i got together at his house. mr. jenner. the ad was placed when? mr. weissman. the first payment was made on the th or th of november. representative ford. was this after the announcement of the president's visit? mr. weissman. yes. representative ford. you knew that president kennedy was to be in dallas on november ? mr. weissman. yes. mr. jenner. a week before that? mr. weissman. right; we had started working on the ad. larrie and i got together. and i said, "what are we going to put in it?"; because i didn't have the vaguest idea. and larrie brought out a list of questions, questions, that were made up for some conservative--i think it might possibly have been one of goldwater's aides had just listed questions of chinks in our foreign policy, you might say, weak points. and we just picked some that we thought might apply to president kennedy and his foreign policy. because the questions went back quite aways. and all of the questions except for two i had a part in saying okay to. the two that i had no part in was---- mr. jenner. read them, please. mr. weissman. was the th question---- mr. jenner. are those questions numbered? mr. weissman. no; but i will read it to you. it says "why has the foreign policy of the united states degenerated to the point that the cia is arranging coups and having stanch anti-communist allies of the u.s. bloodily exterminated?" this was handed in at the last minute by one of the contributors. he would not contribute. mr. jenner. by whom? mr. weissman. i have no idea. but he would not contribute the money. mr. jenner. was this one of the men who gave money to mr. grinnan? mr. weissman. yes; this is my understanding. mr. jenner. and did mr. grinnan tell you this? mr. weissman. yes; he said "this has to go in." mr. jenner. he said that to you in the presence of whom? mr. weissman. i believe bill burley was there, and larrie schmidt. mr. jenner. where was this? mr. weissman. in joe grinnan's office. mr. jenner. in dallas? mr. weissman. in dallas; yes. mr. jenner. that is room of the wilson building? mr. weissman. yes; and i was against this particular question, because i frankly agreed with the coup. but it is a question of having all or nothing. another question that was put in here--i forget exactly when--which i wasn't in favor of, which we put in after the proof was submitted to joe grinnan for his approval, is "why have you ordered or permitted your brother bobby, the attorney general, to go soft on communists, fellow travelers, and ultra-leftists in america, while permitting him to criticize loyal americans, who criticize you, your administration, and your leadership?" now, this struck me as being a states rights plea, and as far as our domestic policy goes, i am a pretty liberal guy. so i didn't agree with that. mr. jenner. who suggested that question? mr. weissman. i don't remember. i just remember that it came up--i didn't like it. but the fact was that it had to be in there. mr. jenner. i would like to keep you on that for a moment. was it a suggestion that had come from a contributor, or did it originate in your group? mr. weissman. i really don't recall. mr. jenner. or mr. grinnan? mr. weissman. i don't recall if it originated with larrie or mr. grinnan or with someone else. i really don't know. mr. jenner. how old a man is mr. grinnan? mr. weissman. i would say in his very early thirties. representative ford. that suggestion, the last one, didn't come from you, however? mr. weissman. which? representative ford. the one you just read. mr. weissman. oh, no. representative ford. because of your own liberal domestic philosophy? mr. weissman. right. the only question in here that is entirely my own is the last one, and this is because i was pretty steamed up over the fiasco in cuba and the lack of followup by the administration. "why have you scrapped the monroe doctrine in favor of the spirit of moscow?" i will still stand by that question. as far as the copy at the top of the letter, appearing before the questions, as far as i know, this was written by larrie schmidt. he showed it to me. i said, "it is a little rough, but if we are going to get our money's worth out of the ad, i guess it has to be." mr. jenner. mr. chairman, may i stand over near the witness? representative ford. surely. mr. jenner. thank you. when you say the copy at the top of the ad, does that include the banner, "welcome, mr. kennedy, to dallas."? mr. weissman. yes. mr. jenner. and you are referring to all that portion of the ad which is commission exhibit no. , down to the first question? mr. weissman. yes. the idea of the black border was mine. mr. jenner. yes. i was going to ask you that. why did you suggest the black border? mr. weissman. well, i saw a proof of the ad--drew a mockup, the advertising man at the newspaper office drew a mockup, and it was the sort of thing that you just turned the page and pass it by, unless you had something to bring it out. and i suggested a black border. he put a one-eighth inch black border around. i said try a little heavier one. he went to a quarter inch black border and i said, "that looks okay," and we had the black border. mr. jenner. i take it from your present statement that you worked with a copywriter or advertising composer at the dallas morning news. mr. weissman. yes. his name was dick houston. mr. jenner. how many editions did this ad run for the $ , ? mr. weissman. one edition. it came out on the evening edition, on the st, and the morning of the d. mr. jenner. just one paper? mr. weissman. one edition, one paper. mr. jenner. that is only the dallas morning news? mr. weissman. that is right. mr. jenner. it was not in the other dallas papers? mr. weissman. no. mr. jenner. the times herald? mr. weissman. no. we felt--we didn't even go to the times herald. we felt they would not even print it, because they are a very liberal paper, and we felt it would be a waste of time. we were convinced that the morning news was conservative enough to print it. and they did. mr. jenner. so the dallas morning news people were quite aware of the composition of the ad, and worked with you in putting it in final shape? mr. weissman. yes; as a matter of fact, i had asked to show it to a mr. gray, who was the head of the advertising department, and they said no, that wouldn't be necessary, they just have to submit it to a judge something or other, a retired judge who was their legal advisor, and who would look at the ad to see if there was anything libelous in it, so to speak, or anything that the morning news could be sued for. and i assume they did this, because they didn't let me know right away whether or not they could print it. when i came back that afternoon, or the following morning--i don't recall which--and they said everything was okay, that it would go. mr. dulles. when you spoke of the head of the advertising department, that is the advertising department of the news? mr. weissman. of the dallas morning news; yes, sir. mr. jenner. mr. weissman, you have read two questions with which you disagreed. mr. weissman. yes, sir. mr. jenner. you have read a question, which is the last in the advertisement. mr. weissman. yes. mr. jenner. of which you are the author, and you said you would still stand by that particular one. mr. weissman. a hundred percent; yes, sir. mr. jenner. now, are there any others with which you had a measure of disagreement, or any other which you now would not wish to support or, as you put it, stand back of? mr. weissman. there was one other that i thought was being a little rough on the president, but which i didn't particularly agree with a hundred percent. mr. jenner. identify it, please. mr. weissman. it was in the question that read, "why has gus hall, head of the u.s. communist party, praised almost every one of your policies and announced that the party will endorse and support your reelection in ? i personally thought that the selection of this particular question tended to put president kennedy in a light where he is voluntarily accepting this support--in other words, sort of calling him a communist, which i felt he was not. and, at the same time, though, i had a reservation about making a big furor over it, because of the fact, if nothing else, if the president did read it, he might realize something, and he just might do something about it, in foresaking the support. so i let it go at that. mr. dulles. when you spoke, then, of selection from a list--was that the list to which you referred before, which i believe you said came from the birch society? mr. jenner. a list of questions. mr. weissman. no; as far as i know it didn't come from the birch society. it was just some political material that larrie had collected rafts of--he had books and folders. it was something he pulled out and said, "maybe we can use this." and we went through the questions. we were in a hurry, and this seemed to be the easiest way out, as far as getting some text, some composition for the ad. representative ford. so the final selection rested with larrie, mr. grinnan, and yourself, with the exception of this one contributor who insisted on one? mr. weissman. well, let's put it like this. i signed my name to the ad. but you might say the final selection rested with the contributors. i had to go along with them, because if i said i won't go along with it, or i won't sign my name, there would have been an ad anyway--the ad would have been printed anyway. larrie would have put his name to it. now, let me tell you this. it will be a very short story. bill and i had decided about a week after we got to dallas that larrie was full of hooey, that we could not go along with this guy. representative ford. what do you mean by that? mr. weissman. well, everything he is doing he is doing for himself, and if we happen to fit in, it was fine. and he was getting an awful lot of recognition and publicity. we felt if this guy got any stronger, he would be able to move us out, or control us. so when the idea for the ad came up i said, "okay, i will put my name to it," because i felt any recognition that came would then be in my favor, and if we took advantage of this, and because these organizations would have to back me personally as representing them, i could then denounce the anti-semitism, the anti-catholic, anti-negro, and they would have to back me up, or else i would just tell the whole story about this thing. and i felt that this was going to be my move to get back to the original philosophy of a completely democratic type of organization. and i had discussed--bill and i, i might say, were a partnership unto ourselves. we had decided one way or the other we were either going to get out of dallas or run the thing ourselves, because we didn't like the way it was going. mr. dulles. did larrie object to your being the one to sign the advertisement? mr. weissman. no; in fact, larrie was sort of afraid to sign it, because when he came out and said he was part of the stevenson demonstration, his life had been threatened, and he had all sorts of harrassing phone calls and so on. and he wanted to avoid this. but if it was a question of printing an ad or not printing it, he would have signed it. representative ford. but as far as any organization of any kind being responsible for this ad, it was not true. there was no organization that backed this ad? there were four or five of you that really promoted it and finally raised the money for it and put it in the newspaper? mr. weissman. that is not quite accurate. you might say when you get right down to it, in the final tale, the john birch society printed that ad, not cusa. mr. jenner. tell us why, now. please expand on that. mr. weissman. well, in order to get anywhere in dallas, at least in the area of conservative politics that we were in, you had to, you might say, cotton to the john birch society, because they were a pretty strong group, and still are, down there. and---- mr. jenner. who is the head of that now? mr. weissman. the birch society? mr. jenner. yes. mr. weissman. i never met the fellow. they had a paid coordinator. i don't recall his name offhand. but, anyway---- mr. jenner. were you in his offices? mr. weissman. no; joe grinnan, as a matter of fact, is the only man in the hierarchy of the birch society in dallas that i met. larrie was a member of the jbs, and bill and i didn't like it, but we saw that he was out for himself as much as anything, and this was a way to help himself along anyway, both politically and financially. and he convinced us of the method to his madness. but as i said we wanted to move larrie out when we found he was more jbs than he was cusa, and he was willing to go along with them completely, and forget about the cusa goals. representative ford. your allegiance was to cusa? mr. weissman. right. in other words, i would have used the john birch society as a vehicle, as planned. but i would never have gone up on a soapbox to support them. mr. dulles. who were the members of the american fact-finding committee, if any? mr. weissman. well, the members would be myself, bill burley, larrie schmidt, joe grinnan--just the people immediately involved. mr. jenner. that was a name and solely a name? mr. weissman. solely a name. mr. jenner. there was no such organization? mr. weissman. none whatsoever. mr. jenner. and you used it for convenience on this advertisement? mr. weissman. that is right. as a matter of fact, when i went to place the ad, i could not remember the name. i had it written down on a piece of paper. i had to refer to a piece of paper for the name. mr. jenner. had you ever used that name before? mr. weissman. never. mr. jenner. did your group ever use it thereafter? mr. weissman. not as far as i know. mr. jenner. have you now named all of the people who played any part in, to the best of your recollection--in the idea for the publication of, the actual drafting of the ad, and its ultimate running in that edition of the dallas morning news? mr. weissman. there is only one other individual that i could name. he was there at the reading of the final proof, before the ad was printed. that was joe grinnan's brother, robert p. grinnan. mr. jenner. is he an older or younger brother? mr. weissman. i believe he is an older brother. mr. jenner. what business is he engaged in? mr. weissman. oil and real estate. mr. dulles. who took out the post office box , dallas , tex., that appears under your name here on this advertisement? mr. weissman. bill, larrie, and i went to the post office together. i signed for the box. representative ford. do you recall the date? mr. weissman. it was the same--the morning--the same morning i originally went to get the ad laid out at the morning news. representative ford. has it been discontinued? mr. weissman. the box? yes; i received a communication from larrie. he said the box time had run out. they had extended it for months after that, and then it was--as far as i know, it is nonexistent now. senator cooper. may i ask this question: would you state now to this commission the idea of printing this ad was conceived by you and larry jones--what is the other's name? mr. weissman. larrie schmidt. senator cooper. alone, and there was no stimulation from any outside group or organization. do you state that under oath? mr. weissman. there was stimulation. senator cooper. from whom? mr. weissman. i assume from the birch society. in other words, i think the idea for the ad, for the something to do on the occasion of president kennedy's visit--i think the idea for the something to do came from the birch society--whether mr. joe grinnan or someone else, i don't know. senator cooper. was it communicated as an idea to you? mr. weissman. larrie communicated the idea to me, said what do you think. i said, why not? senator cooper. which one of this group did the idea come to? mr. weissman. i don't know. senator cooper. it didn't come to you? mr. weissman. no; it didn't come to me personally originally, no. mr. dulles. what is the basis of your evidence of saying this was the birch society? how did you know that? where did you get that? mr. weissman. well, it came to a point where everything we were doing we had to go talk to joe--big brother. and that is just the way it worked out. mr. jenner. this is joe grinnan? mr. weissman. yes. they were getting a grip on us, and bill and i felt that we had to bust this grip somehow. mr. dulles. was he prominent in the birch society? mr. weissman. yes; he was known. mr. dulles. joe grinnan? mr. weissman. yes; he was known as a coordinator. representative ford. this one question that was inserted at the insistence of one of the contributors, which reads as follows: "why has the foreign policy of the united states degenerated to the point the c.i.a. is arranging coups and having staunch anti-communist allies of the u.s. bloodily exterminated"--to what does that refer? do you have any specific information? mr. weissman. i know it specifically refers to the vietnam thing, with the overthrow of diem, and the subsequent murder of the diem people. representative ford. was that said to you at the time? mr. weissman. this was not said to me at the time. but i had mentioned it various times, and this was definitely, as far as i am concerned--this was definitely the reason for placing that. as a matter of fact, this had occurred not too long after that, i believe. mr. dulles. who was it that insisted on the insertion of that? mr. weissman. well, joe grinnan handed me this piece of paper. it was written on a piece of scrap paper. i could hardly decipher it, myself. and he said, "this has to be in. go back and have them change the ad." so i had to run back to the morning news, with this other insertion. this is just the way it happened. (at this point, senator cooper withdrew from the hearing room.) representative ford. i understand that you made a downpayment on the ad. mr. weissman. that is right. representative ford. and then went back and paid the rest in full? mr. weissman. a thousand dollars the first day, and $ -odd on the second day. mr. dulles. were both payments made before publication? mr. weissman. yes. mr. jenner. mr. dulles called attention to the post office box number. mr. weissman. yes. mr. jenner. that stimulates me to ask you this: did you receive any responses to the advertisement? mr. weissman. oh, did i? yes, sir. mr. jenner. now, tell us about that and also, before you start, do you have any of those responses? mr. weissman. not with me. all that i received i have at home. mr. jenner. and indicate to us the volume that you have at home. mr. weissman. i have approximately or letters; about one-third of which were favorable, and the rest, two-thirds, unfavorable. the favorable responses, all but one came before--they were postmarked, the envelopes were postmarked before the president was assassinated. and the threatening letters and the nasty letters came afterward. mr. jenner. did you receive any contributions? mr. weissman. i still have a check to the american fact-finding committee in the amount of $ . since we never opened a bank account, i just sort of kept the check as a souvenir. there was one $ contribution---- mr. jenner. cash? mr. weissman. right--from a retired train engineer, or something. mr. jenner. and that is---- mr. weissman. for the wabash railroad. mr. jenner. were those the only contributions? mr. weissman. to my knowledge; yes, sir. mr. jenner. at least that you know anything about? mr. weissman. that is right. in all the letters i received the first time we went to the box. i only went to the box once, that was, i believe, the sunday morning following the assassination. mr. jenner. the th of november? mr. weissman. about; yes, sir. mr. dulles. did anybody have the key to the box in addition to yourself? mr. weissman. up to that point, only i had the key. after that, i left dallas on wednesday, i believe---- mr. jenner. i misspoke--it was the th of november rather than the th. mr. weissman. i left dallas on the following wednesday. and at that time i didn't see larrie personally--he couldn't get to the apartment that bill and i were staying at for some reason or another. and i left all the dishes and things he had given us to use while we were there, and in one of these dishes i left the key to the box. since that time, communications i received from larrie, he says the tenor of the letters had changed, they are more favorable than unfavorable in the ensuing weeks and months. of these letters--he sent me one that called me all sorts of names, a lot of anti-semitic remarks, and he sent another, and he gave excerpts in one of his personal letters, of letters that he received in support of the position of the ad. mr. dulles. do i understand that you got all the letters that came in up to wednesday after the assassination, and that your associates have the rest, or larrie, i presume, has the rest? mr. weissman. i don't know who has the rest. i don't know if it is larrie or joe. mr. dulles. larrie had the key. mr. weissman. yes. i left him the key--i left him access to the key. i received the letters written during the days following the assassination--the friday afternoon and saturday following the assassination--because i picked the mail up the following sunday morning. mr. jenner. having in mind all your testimony up to the moment, i would like to take you back to the telephone conversation that you had with larrie schmidt, in which he made the reference to stevenson, following which, that is following this conversation, you eventually came to dallas. mr. weissman. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and this conversation, as i recall it, the telephone call, was in the month of october ? mr. weissman. yes. it was the evening of the stevenson demonstration. according to the letter i think it was the th of october. (at this point, mr. dulles withdrew from the hearing room.) mr. jenner. now, one of the members of the commission is interested in having you repeat that conversation in full, to the best of your recollection. mr. weissman. since it is recollection, it is going to change somewhat in words, but in tenor it will be the same. mr. jenner. you do your best. mr. weissman. larrie called me on the telephone and he was very excited, and he had described what had transpired in dallas---- mr. jenner. tell us what he said, please. that is what we are interested in. mr. weissman. he just said---- mr. jenner. and his part in it, if any. mr. weissman. he said that he had helped organize this demonstration and it went off beautifully, there is going to be national publicity, the newspapers were all over the place, he had given statements to the news media, to the television. he said he was on tv and radio, and had given out statements, and that he was--it seemed that he was going to be heading for, not trouble, but a good deal of difficulty because it seems that he was the only one that came out as one of the organizers of the demonstration, who openly came out and said so. mr. jenner. and identified himself with the demonstration? mr. weissman. yes, sir. he said he had--what did he say--something to the effect that he had a bunch of his people down there, the university of dallas students. mr. jenner. did he identify them as students? mr. weissman. i don't recall. i met the students several weeks later when i got to dallas. mr. jenner. the students he had employed? mr. weissman. that had participated in the demonstration; yes. mr. jenner. did he describe what the demonstration was insofar as his part and his group's part in it was? (at this point, mr. dulles reentered the hearing room.) mr. weissman. well, just to the effect they had picketed and carried signs and made some noises inside the auditorium. not he and his group, but that the picketers had raised quite a hullabaloo inside the auditorium. mr. jenner. were they his picketers? mr. weissman. i don't know. this he didn't specify. i had assumed---- mr. jenner. what impression did you get in that respect? mr. weissman. i had assumed his picketers were part of it. (at this point, representative ford withdrew from the hearing room.) mr. jenner. you were repeating to the best of your recollection that telephone conversation. mr. weissman. the gist of the conversation; yes. mr. jenner. as best you are able to recall. mr. weissman. that is right. i really cannot swear to its percent accuracy, but i would say it is percent accurate anyway. mr. jenner. have you now exhausted your recollection as to all that was said, in substance? mr. weissman. in substance; yes. mr. jenner. in the course of that conversation. mr. weissman. yes. mr. jenner. i take it he urged you to come to dallas? mr. weissman. he did. mr. jenner. that this stevenson incident had stimulated things to the point that cusa--you members of cusa should come to dallas, and everything was ripe? mr. weissman. he said we can pick up the ball and start running. mr. jenner. now, you and mr. burley then went to dallas, did you? mr. weissman. that is right. we left on the d of november. mr. jenner. and that would have been following the receipt of the letter of october , which we have identified as---- mr. weissman. commission exhibit no. . mr. jenner. how did you get there? mr. weissman. i drove in my car. mr. jenner. did mr. burley accompany you? mr. weissman. yes. mr. jenner. did you stop off anywhere on the way? mr. weissman. we stopped at his mother's house in south carolina for about or hours. mr. jenner. and when you reached dallas, did you find a room, or what did you do? mr. weissman. that night we stayed at larrie's house. we got there about o'clock in the afternoon. mr. jenner. where does he live? mr. weissman. at that time he was living at the eden roc apartments, in dallas. mr. jenner. is he a married man? mr. weissman. he was. mr. jenner. i take it he was separated from his wife at that time? mr. weissman. no, no. he has been divorced since. mr. jenner. but he was living with his wife at that time? mr. weissman. yes, sir. mr. jenner. by the way, is mr. burley a married man, also? mr. weissman. i spoke with him just the other day. his divorce will be final in about weeks, he thinks. mr. jenner. he was married at that time? mr. weissman. yes; separated. mr. jenner. where was his wife living? mr. weissman. in west virginia, i believe. mr. jenner. he had a family, did he not, several children? mr. weissman. four or five children. mr. jenner. you stayed with him at the eden roc apartments? mr. weissman. that is right. mr. jenner. that is, with mr. schmidt? mr. weissman. yes. mr. jenner. and then you and mr. burley arranged a room somewhere, did you? mr. weissman. we rented an apartment. i think we stayed with larrie for days, or days. then we rented an apartment in dallas. mr. jenner. where was that? mr. weissman. i don't recall the address offhand. mr. jenner. all right. now, approximately where are we now, as a matter of time in this period? mr. weissman. this is---- mr. jenner. that you rented the apartment. mr. weissman. about the middle of the first week after we arrived in dallas. mr. jenner. which should be approximately what date? mr. weissman. about the th or so of november. mr. jenner. what did you do thereafter in the way of furthering the business of cusa? mr. weissman. well, we were thinking of buying a fourplex, a four-family apartment house. mr. jenner. where were you going to get the money? mr. weissman. we could have gotten a loan, we hoped, with no downpayment, because of the fact we are gi's, through the fha, or va, and we were counting on that. so we were looking around. we had also planned to take over a private club, manage a private club, with an option to buy it. mr. jenner. what club was that? mr. weissman. that was the ducharme club. mr. jenner. that was in dallas? mr. weissman. in dallas; yes. mr. jenner. where did you become acquainted with that possible business opportunity? mr. weissman. well, this had been broached by larrie. this was one of the big disappointments. we had been promised by larrie we wouldn't have any trouble making a living, that he had jobs and everything set up for us. that is one of the reasons i chucked my job in new york. i figured we would be able to survive down there. we got to the ducharme club, after a day or two, and it was a miserable hole in the wall that you could not really do anything with. but we were still dickering with the owner on the potentials. mr. dulles. what did this club purport to do? mr. weissman. it was a private club. they sold liquor and beer over the bar to members. mr. dulles. entertainment? mr. weissman. they had a dance floor and jukebox. mr. jenner. who--do you recall the names of any of the people interested in the ducharme club? mr. weissman. the owners? mr. jenner. yes. mr. weissman. the only one i know of is leon ducharme, the owner. mr. jenner. did jack ruby or jack rubenstein have any interest in this club? mr. weissman. no; not as far as i know. mr. jenner. did you ever meet jack ruby or jack rubenstein? mr. weissman. never. mr. jenner. did you become acquainted with the carousel club when you were in dallas? mr. weissman. i was never in it, and i still don't know where it is. mr. jenner. you were never in it; you don't know where it is. did you hear of it when you were there? mr. weissman. never. as a matter of fact, in the entire - / weeks or so that bill and i were in dallas, we didn't go to the movies at all. the only two clubs that i can recall that we went into was the lavender lounge---- mr. jenner. where is that located? mr. weissman. that is in dallas. mr. jenner. where? mr. weissman. i don't recall the street. mr. jenner. it is downtown, is it? mr. weissman. no; it is not downtown. this is--it was about two blocks from our apartment. and it is about, i guess, a good -minute walk to downtown from there. and the only other club would be the ducharme club. mr. jenner. where was that located? mr. weissman. that was on haskell avenue, in dallas. mr. jenner. how far from the downtown area, if at all? mr. weissman. well, to make it conveniently, you should take a bus. otherwise, about a -minute walk. mr. jenner. from the ducharme club to the downtown area of dallas? mr. weissman. yes, sir; and the reason we went to the ducharme club after the fact we decided we were not going to take it, was that that was a place we could get credit for beer. larrie had a charge account there. and that was the extent of our association with that place. mr. jenner. now---- mr. weissman. now, in the lavender lounge, the reason we went there, is we were dickering with the owners of the lavender lounge---- mr. jenner. name him. mr. weissman. l. s. brotherton. we wanted to lease a club that he had that was closed down, called the beachcomber, in a suburb of dallas. and we had been in there several times and had talked to him about leasing this. in other words, we were looking for something that would give us an income so we could operate a little bit. and that never worked out. he wanted too much money, and we didn't have it. mr. jenner. in any of these negotiations that were carried on by you or your associates, was the name jack ruby ever mentioned as having any possible interest whatsoever in any of those groups? mr. weissman. never. mr. jenner. did you hear of the name jack ruby or jack rubenstein up to--at anytime prior to november , ? mr. weissman. no; never. mr. jenner. and do you have any information or any knowledge or any notion or feeling that larrie schmidt or any of your associates knew of or had any association with jack ruby or otherwise known as jack rubenstein? mr. weissman. i think i can state pretty emphatically no. mr. jenner. were there any communications of any kind or character, written notes, telephone calls, or otherwise, that you know about or knew about then to or from jack ruby? mr. weissman. never. mr. jenner. when did you first hear of the name jack ruby? mr. weissman. i think he shot oswald some time in the afternoon or the morning--since bill and i had neither a radio or tv in the apartment--we were in the apartment all day. mr. jenner. all day that sunday? mr. weissman. yes; we had heard about it that night. mr. jenner. that is the th of november ? mr. weissman. if that is when oswald was shot. mr. jenner. and you first became aware of oswald being shot the night or evening of the th? mr. weissman. yes. mr. jenner. that sunday? mr. weissman. yes. i don't recall exactly how. i think larrie telephoned us, and told us that. mr. jenner. this is the first time we have mentioned the name oswald. had you ever heard the name lee harvey oswald prior to your going to dallas? mr. weissman. no. mr. jenner. did you hear of the name lee harvey oswald at any time prior to november , ? mr. weissman. no. mr. jenner. was the name ever mentioned in your presence? mr. weissman. no. mr. jenner. i take it from what you have said that you did not know a man by the name of lee harvey oswald. mr. weissman. no. mr. jenner. when did you first hear the name lee harvey oswald? mr. weissman. we were sitting in a bar, right after president kennedy's assassination. mr. jenner. this was the d of november ? mr. weissman. yes; it was bill burley, myself, and larrie. we had made--we were to meet larrie and joe grinnan at the ducharme club. mr. jenner. for what meal? mr. weissman. for luncheon. we were supposed to meet him at : or o'clock, i forget which--about o'clock. and i had a : on the button, as a matter of fact--i had an appointment to sell a carpet out in the garland section of texas--it was a : appointment. and i was in a hurry to get to meet larrie and finish the lunch, and whatever business they wanted to talk about i didn't know. so i looked at my watch. i remember specifically it was : , because at that time bill had been driving my car. he had quit the carpet company and was looking for another job. he had looked at a franchise arrangement for insecticides. he picked me up. he was waiting for me from after to : . we got into the car. i am a great news bug. so i turned the radio on, looking for a news station. and they had--at that time, as i turned the radio on, the announcer said, "there has been a rumor that president kennedy has been shot." so we didn't believe it. it was just a little too far out to believe. and after several minutes, it began to take on some substance about the president's sedan speeding away, somebody hearing shots and people laying on the ground. in other words, the way the reporters were covering it. i don't recall exactly what they said. and, at this time--we were going to go to the ducharme club through downtown dallas. we were heading for the area about two blocks adjacent to the houston street viaduct. and then we heard about the police pulling all sorts of people--somebody said they saw somebody and gave a description. and the police were pulling people off the street and so forth. so bill and i didn't want to get involved in this. so we took a roundabout route. we got lost for a while. anyway, we finally wound up at the other side of dallas, and we were at the ducharme club. mr. jenner. when you arrived there, was mr. schmidt there? mr. weissman. he was waiting for me. but joe grinnan wasn't there. he had heard this thing and took off. i guess he wanted to hide or something. mr. jenner. why? mr. weissman. well, because the way it was right away, the announcers, even before it was ascertained that president kennedy was dead, or that he had really been shot, that it was a rightwing plot and so forth. and he had every reason to be frightened. mr. jenner. why did he have every reason to be frightened? mr. weissman. because, let's face it, the public feeling would suddenly be very antirightwing, and no telling what would happen if a mob got together and discovered him. they would tear him apart. bill and i were frightened to the point because i knew about the ad. and i knew exactly what--at least i felt in my own mind i knew what people would believe. they would read the ad and so forth, and associate you with this thing, somehow, one way or another. so we went to another bar--i don't remember the name of it--the ducharme club was closed, by the way, that afternoon. mr. jenner. when you reached the ducharme club, it was closed, but you found mr. schmidt there? mr. weissman. larrie was waiting on the corner. he got in the car. we sat and talked for a few minutes. we went to another bar a few blocks away. we drank beer and watched television. and we had been in the bar, i guess, about an hour when it come over that this patrolman tippit had been shot, and they trapped some guy in a movie theater. and maybe half an hour, an hour later, it came out this fellow's name was lee harvey oswald. this is the first time i ever heard the name. mr. jenner. what was said at that time? mr. weissman. by us? mr. jenner. yes. when it was announced it was lee harvey oswald. mr. weissman. we were relieved. mr. jenner. anything said about it? mr. weissman. i don't recall. first, what was said, like, i hope he is not a member of the walker group--something like that--i hope he is not one of walker's boys. because it is like a clique, and it is guilt by association from thereafter. so it came over later this guy was a marxist. this was the same afternoon, i believe. it was found out this fellow was a marxist. and then the announcers--they left the rightwing for a little while, and started going to the left, and i breathed a sigh of relief. after hours in the bar, bill and i went back to the apartment, and larrie went to the ducharme club. he was afraid to go home. mr. jenner. i thought the ducharme club was closed. mr. weissman. it was open at that time. we drove by. it was open. larrie went in. we dropped him off there. and bill and i went back to our apartment. we just waited. we knew we were going to get involved in this thing because of the ad. and we figured that if anybody at all in dallas was on the ball, they know who we were and where we were. so we waited. nothing happened. we waited there until we left. we barely left that house. as a matter of fact---- mr. jenner. you remained in the house all that evening, did you--the apartment? mr. weissman. i think the--yes; late that evening larrie came home. mr. dulles. that is friday evening, november ? mr. weissman. yes; i think larrie went home late that evening, and bill and i met him there. mr. jenner. you went to larrie's home? mr. weissman. to larrie's apartment; yes. and i said what are we going to do? and larrie said, "well"--he had talked to joe grinnan, and joe said don't say anything, don't do anything, don't get any more involved than you have to, lay low, keep out of it, it is going to be pretty bad. and it was. thereafter, a day or so later-- mr. jenner. what did you mean by that--it is going to be pretty bad? mr. weissman. in other words--this is just exactly the way it worked out. for example---- mr. jenner. you are now explaining what you mean by "and it was"? mr. weissman. right. stanley marcus, who was a dallas businessman, financier---- mr. jenner. nieman marcus? mr. weissman. of the nieman marcus group, yes, and he was a well-known and rather very rabid liberal. and sure enough, even though the following day it was then established that oswald was a marxist and so forth, and there was some question as to whether or not it was a communist plot, pros and cons, and marcus put his cents in in the dallas times herald, and he starts blaming the rightwing for the trouble. and i was told--i didn't see this---- mr. jenner. this was on the d now? mr. weissman. this was on the following day; yes, sir. and, in other words, he and friends of his, i guess, did everything they could to solidify their position as being always in the right, and throw the blame, even though oswald is obviously a marxist--they tried to transfer the blame to the rightwing. they had us on the run and they were going to keep it that way. mr. jenner. how did this come to your attention? mr. weissman. just by reading the newspapers. mr. jenner. the dallas times herald and the dallas morning news? mr. weissman. there was very little in the morning news about the rightwing, that was antirightwing, and the dallas times herald was full of it. mr. jenner. would you please delineate what you mean by "us" who were on the run? mr. weissman. i mean any conservative in dallas at that time was keeping quiet. mr. jenner. including yourself and the other men you mentioned? mr. weissman. including myself and everybody i was associated with; yes, sir. and a day or so after that, i think it was sunday or monday, i had suggested to larrie, and i spoke to joe grinnan on the phone, that maybe i should call the fbi and give them the story on this ad. and he said, "now, look, if they want you, they will find you. they know where you are, probably. so if they want you, they will find you." so i waited. and several times i was going to make that phone call, and i did not. then finally we just ran out of money. mr. jenner. you are probably a few days beyond the d now? mr. weissman. right; i am. i am going now--everything was rather stable, static up until the wednesday, the following wednesday, when i left dallas. mr. jenner. i want to complete your whole day of the d before you move beyond that. did you or bill leave your apartment on the d? mr. weissman. yes; we were over at larrie's house. i don't remember exactly the times. we had been to larrie's place several times. mr. jenner. were you in the dallas downtown business district at anytime on the d? mr. weissman. i don't think so--no--no, as a matter of fact. in fact, i didn't get around to the business district until--yes. we went into the outer edge of the downtown area to get to the post office, to pick up the letters. mr. jenner. that is right. on the d you went to the post office box and picked up the -odd letters that you have at home in new york. mr. weissman. that is right. and then we went directly back to the apartment, and opened these letters. mr. jenner. that is all you did in the downtown area? mr. weissman. yes; so far as i can recollect. mr. jenner. approximately what time of the day was that? mr. weissman. that was in the morning. that was early in the morning--about or o'clock, i guess, in the morning. mr. jenner. did you receive any telephone calls at your apartment that day? mr. weissman. i received--larrie called us, i know. i don't recall what was said. it was just like, "what is happening--everything okay?" on monday i received a letter---- mr. jenner. excuse me. have we now accounted from the time you got up saturday morning until the time you went to bed that evening? mr. weissman. i don't recall. bill and i might have gone out for a hamburger a couple of blocks away. we didn't go anywhere near downtown. we might have gone to larrie's apartment that night. i am not sure. mr. jenner. the d--we picked you up in your car with mr. burley around : . now, what happened that morning? mr. weissman. that morning? mr. jenner. yes--the d. where were you the morning of the d, up to : o'clock in the afternoon? mr. weissman. let's see. i left the apartment at about--i guess it was a little after . we had a or : sales meeting scheduled, or : . anyway, i got there on time for the sales meeting. mr. jenner. that was the carpet company by which you were employed? mr. weissman. exactly. mr. jenner. name it. mr. weissman. carpet engineers. mr. jenner. and you had obtained that job when? mr. weissman. about a week after arriving in dallas. mr. jenner. and that was located where? mr. weissman. south beckley, in the oak cliff section of dallas. mr. jenner. in the oak cliff section? mr. weissman. that is right. mr. jenner. on beckley? mr. weissman. on beckley. mr. jenner. what was the address? mr. weissman. . i know what you are getting at. oswald also had a room on beckley, but he was on the opposite extreme. i think he was on north beckley. i was on south beckley. mr. jenner. give us the distance approximately between the location of the carpet company by which you were employed which is on south beckley, and oswald's address on north beckley. mr. weissman. at least a few miles. i don't know. i had never been on north beckley. mr. jenner. at no time while you were in dallas were you ever on north beckley? mr. weissman. not as far as i know, unless i got lost and didn't know where i was. but as far as i know, i have never been there. mr. jenner. and you were a salesman of carpeting? mr. weissman. that is right. mr. jenner. did you ever sell any carpeting? mr. weissman. not a one. mr. jenner. did you make any effort? mr. weissman. i made a lot of effort. this is where most of my money went--for gas and things like that. mr. jenner. your associate, mr. burley, was he a salesman for this company also? mr. weissman. he quit about weeks--about several days before the d. and he was looking--of course, one of us had to make money. we both were blanking out with the carpets. mr. jenner. i take it, however, he had been employed by the same carpet company? mr. weissman. yes, sir. mr. jenner. you made application together, did you? mr. weissman. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and you were both employed at approximately the same time? mr. weissman. that is right. mr. jenner. but he left the carpet company before you did? mr. weissman. that is right. mr. jenner. and i understand you attended a sales meeting at the carpet company the morning of the d. mr. weissman. that is right. mr. jenner. when did that sales meeting break up? mr. weissman. : for me. it was still going when i left. i left at : because i had this afternoon appointment, and also this meeting with larrie. i had talked to the sales manager after that. i had---- mr. jenner. what was his name? mr. weissman. frank demaria. and i had asked him if he had been questioned at all by the fbi. he said yes, they had been around. and i said, "what did you tell them?" and he mentioned at that time, he says, "we thought you had left about o'clock." and i said, "what are you trying to do?" and, anyway, this is the way it went. but i know i left at : . they were embroiled in a big discussion, and they were not cognizant of the time. i was. mr. jenner. all right. now, would you tell us what you did on the th? mr. weissman. went to pick up the mail in the morning, went back to the apartment. mr. jenner. you picked up mail in the morning on sunday? mr. weissman. that is right, the post office was open sunday morning. mr. jenner. you went to the post office on the d, which is saturday, and you also returned---- mr. weissman. no; i didn't go to the post office on saturday the d. mr. jenner. i misunderstood you, then. mr. weissman. no; i am almost positive it was sunday morning. i know it wasn't saturday. i am positive--almost positive it was sunday morning. mr. dulles. that is when you picked up the -odd letters you referred to? mr. weissman. right. mr. jenner. it was the day that you heard that ruby had shot oswald, was it? mr. weissman. i am getting a little confused now. i think i might be day---- mr. jenner. see if we can orient you. the assassination of the president occurred on the d of november , which is a friday. mr. weissman. right. mr. jenner. then there was saturday. then on sunday the th occurred the shooting of lee harvey oswald by jack ruby. mr. weissman. yes. mr. jenner. now, with those events in mind, when did you go to the post office box? mr. weissman. well, now, i know it was not monday. now, i am back in perspective. i am almost definitely sure it was sunday morning. mr. jenner. you said earlier that it was saturday. you said it was the day after the ad appeared, that night, and you went the next day. mr. weissman. no; couldn't have. mr. jenner. that was an error? mr. weissman. that was an error; yes. it was sunday. mr. jenner. all right. now, on further reflection, your recollection is reasonably firm now that you did go to the post office box on sunday rather than saturday? mr. weissman. i am almost positive it was sunday morning. mr. jenner. you are equally positive it was not monday? mr. weissman. it might either be--i remembered there was an awful lot of traffic. and i don't know if the traffic was because everybody was driving through downtown to go around the houston viaduct to see the scene of the assassination or what. and this is what is confusing me now. that is why i am not sure if it was sunday morning--it might have been monday morning. i doubt it. but it might have been. mr. jenner. but it was early? mr. weissman. yes. mr. jenner. around o'clock? mr. weissman. eight, nine o'clock; yes. mr. jenner. i was asking you to account for your comings and goings and your whereabouts on sunday the th. and in the course of doing that, in referring to the morning, you mentioned that you had gone to the post office box. now, what did you do thereafter? mr. weissman. went right back to the apartment. mr. jenner. did mr. burley accompany you? mr. weissman. yes; and another fellow. ken--kenneth glazbrook. mr. jenner. who is he? mr. weissman. this is a fellow associated with cusa, but never really. he came in, as a matter of fact--yes; i had forgotten about him. president kennedy was assassinated on a friday. ken glazbrook arrived in town by bus on friday night. we went down to the bus station to pick him up. mr. jenner. you knew he was coming? mr. weissman. yes. he---- mr. jenner. please identify him. mr. weissman. ken glazbrook. mr. jenner. yes; who was he? mr. weissman. ken is what you might call a world traveler. this is a guy--he is a political science--he has a masters in political science from ucla, i believe. and we had hoped to bring him in as our political analyst. mr. jenner. had you met him in the service? mr. weissman. in germany; yes. larrie met him at one time originally. ken was passing through munich, and he had stopped off at our favorite bar, and gotten into a discussion with larrie. and he had been through munich after that two or three times, at one occasion which i met him. and he had also said, "i will meet you in dallas." but he came and he went. he stayed with bill and i for a couple of days at our apartment, because he was on his way home to california. from what i understand now, he is back in europe. he could not take it here. mr. jenner. i am still accounting for sunday. you went to the post office box, you think. you went to the bus station to pick up---- mr. weissman. i am not sure whether this was--i am pretty sure it was friday night we picked him up at the bus station. it might have been saturday night. but i am more sure in my mind--my inclination goes more toward friday night. mr. jenner. you saw him on sunday? mr. weissman. ken? mr. jenner. did you see this man on sunday? mr. weissman. he was in the apartment with us. mr. jenner. he came to stay with you? mr. weissman. yes; he brought a pitcher and a knapsack. mr. jenner. did he go down to the post office box with you? mr. weissman. yes. mr. jenner. and he returned to your apartment? mr. weissman. yes. mr. jenner. what did you do then? mr. weissman. we went through the letters. we were going pro and con, and reading them. we were very pleased at first because a lot of it was favorable, and then we got to the later postmarks, and those were terrible. we just discussed the letters for a while. and a girl came over. what was her name? lynn something--i don't know her last name. and she sat around and talked for a while. we discussed the letters with her. then larrie came over that afternoon also. he was wearing a turtle-neck sweater. and we stayed around for a few hours. then larrie and lynn took off to the ducharme club. and thereafter i don't know what happened to them. i did not hear from them at all. and--that is about it for sunday. mr. jenner. when did you first hear about the ruby-oswald incident? mr. weissman. i think larrie called me up. yes, he was watching television at the ducharme club, i believe. i believe this was the occasion. i think he was with lynn. and he telephoned me at the apartment. and that was the story. mr. jenner. you have testified you were never in the carousel club. mr. weissman. never. mr. jenner. what if any acquaintance did you have with officer tippit? mr. weissman. none. mr. jenner. what if any acquaintance did any of your associates have to your knowledge with officer tippit? mr. weissman. absolutely none. mr. jenner. had you ever heard of the name officer tippit? mr. weissman. never. mr. jenner. up to or any time during the day of november , ? mr. weissman. none at all. the first i ever heard of this name was after oswald shot him, and it came over the tv, that a policeman had been shot near a movie theater. that was the first i had heard that name. mr. jenner. do you know whether any of your associates, schmidt or burley or jones, or any persons you have mentioned, knew officer tippit? mr. weissman. to the best of my knowledge, no. mr. jenner. did anything occur during all the time you were in dallas to lead you to believe any of these people, including mr. grinnan, for example, had had any connection with or association or knowledge of or acquaintance with tippit? mr. weissman. not as far as i know. i don't know too much about joe grinnan. mr. jenner. did you at anytime while you were in dallas ever have a meeting with or sit in the carousel club with officer tippit? mr. weissman. no. mr. jenner. do you know or do you have any information as to whether any of the associates you have mentioned ever had a meeting with officer tippit in the carousel club? mr. weissman. none whatsoever. mr. jenner. or whether or not, irrespective of whether it was a formal meeting or even an informal one, that they were with officer tippit at anytime in the carousel club. mr. weissman. absolutely not. mr. jenner. and you were never in the carousel club at all; and you never were with officer tippit. mr. weissman. right. mr. jenner. any place. mr. weissman. any place. mr. jenner. mr. weissman, it has been asserted that a meeting took place on november , , in the carousel club between officer tippit and yourself--and i take it from your testimony that you vigorously deny that that ever took place. mr. weissman. very definitely. may i say something in relation to this? mr. jenner. is it pertinent to this? mr. weissman. i believe so. i believe that this is a statement made by mark lane, who claimed to be attorney for the deceased oswald. it was originally made at the town hall in new york, and later that same evening, i do not recall the date exactly, on a radio program contact wins new york, at about midnight of that same day. at that time i telephoned the radio station and spoke to mark lane. this is the first i had heard of the allegation at all. mr. jenner. you telephoned the radio station? mr. weissman. right. mr. jenner. and you asked for mr. lane. mr. weissman. that's right. mr. jenner. did the man for whom you asked come to the phone? mr. weissman. yes; he did. mr. jenner. had you known mr. lane prior to this time? mr. weissman. never heard of him before. mr. jenner. you had never spoken to him? mr. weissman. never. mr. jenner. did you ask--when there was an answer on the phone, did you ask who it was that was on the phone? mr. weissman. i said something to the effect of "hello, mr. lane?" mr. jenner. what did the voice on the other end of the phone say? mr. weissman. he said yes--yes something. mr. jenner. did you identify yourself? mr. weissman. yes; i did. mr. jenner. did you identify yourself before or after you asked whether the voice was that of mr. lane? mr. weissman. i identified myself--i called the radio station and it was a telephone thing that was broadcast over the air, question and answer--you telephone in a question and he answers. so i telephoned, and just by luck i happened to get through on the first ring. and somebody said, "who is calling?" i said, "i would like to speak with mr. lane. this is bernard weissman calling, chairman of the american fact-finding committee." and so i got him on the phone, because they could not pass this up. and i told him, i identified him that "you are the attorney for the assassin oswald"--this is just what i said to him. mr. jenner. what did he say? mr. weissman. and he said--he murmured in agreement. he did not say emphatically "yes; i am." but he said, "um-hum," something to that effect. and i said, "i know what you are trying to do. i think you are hunting for headlines. but you had been talking to some liar in dallas who has been feeding you all this baloney about me. you are making all these allegations at the town hall and now on radio. and you have never taken the trouble to contact me. my name has been in the paper. it is very well known where i live. i am in the phone book. you could have at least tried to contact me." and i pinned him up against the wall verbally. and he agreed at that time---- mr. jenner. what did he say? mr. weissman. he said that he had no definite proof, that he would have to check on it. mr. jenner. proof of what? mr. weissman. proof of the allegations. mr. jenner. did you mention what the allegation was when you talked with him on the telephone? mr. weissman. yes; i did. mr. jenner. what did you say? mr. weissman. i said, "you are alleging that i had a meeting with patrolman tippit in jack ruby's bar with some unidentified third person about a week before the assassination." i said, "you are going strictly on the story of some liar in dallas." i said, "if you had any courage or commonsense or really wanted to get at the facts, you would have called and asked me, too." and he agreed, yes, he should have talked to me. mr. jenner. did he say yes he should have talked to you? mr. weissman. yes; and that he would also recheck his facts in dallas. and that ended the essence of the conversation. mr. jenner. have you exhausted your recollection as to that conversation? mr. weissman. as to that particular conversation; yes. mr. jenner. when you adverted to his assertion in the town hall meeting, that you had been present in the carousel club in a meeting with officer tippit, did you say that you denied that you were ever in the carousel club? mr. weissman. i denied that; yes. mr. jenner. that was what you said. mr. weissman. i said, "i did not know lee harvey oswald. i did not know jack ruby. i have never been in the carousel club." mr. jenner. and you said that to him over the telephone on that occasion---- mr. weissman. that's right. mr. jenner. what was his response to that? mr. weissman. this is when he came up with he would have to recheck his facts and he would have to check into it. subsequently, i had talked to him later that same evening--the show went off at a.m. in the morning. and i had been given a private number to call at the radio station. i talked to him on the telephone. mr. jenner. how did you get that number? mr. weissman. the announcer gave it over the air. and he said, "if you want to speak with mr. lane"--because i was getting pretty hot. mr. jenner. you mean angry? mr. weissman. angry; yes. and he said, "if you want to talk to mr. lane call him after the show is over, about after ." i forget the number of the station. and i telephoned him. mr. jenner. you called the same number again. mr. weissman. yes. mr. jenner. you asked for mr. lane. mr. weissman. yes; i did. mr. jenner. and somebody responded? mr. weissman. mr. lane got on the wire. mr. jenner. was it the same voice? mr. weissman. yes. mr. jenner. what did he say in the way of acknowledging that it was mr. lane? mr. weissman. i went into it again. mr. jenner. did you say, "mr. lane"? mr. weissman. yes. mr. jenner. and the voice's response was what? mr. weissman. i said, "hello, mr. lane." and he said--i said, "hello, mr. lane." and he said, "yes." "this is bernie weissman" or mr. weissman. and he said "yes." and then i reiterated what i had said, and that he had better check his facts--and "i am going to get a hold of some friends in dallas to check on your witness and find out who he is." mr. jenner. please identify these people. mr. weissman. i was saying this to mark lane. and mark lane repeated again---- mr. jenner. please say again what you said to mr. lane, and then what his response was, because with the rapidity with which you speak, it is difficult to sort out his words from your words. mr. weissman. well---- mr. jenner. it might be well if you started over again. you called the station. you asked for mr. lane and a voice responded. mr. weissman. yes. mr. jenner. you then said, "mark lane"? and he responded? mr. weissman. yes. mr. jenner. all right. now, carry on from there. mr. weissman. i told him that he had better check his facts, that he is off on a tangent, that there is absolutely no factual background. mr. jenner. for what? mr. weissman. for him saying, his allegations, that i had had this meeting with tippit in ruby's bar. mr. jenner. did you repeat that again? did you repeat again that you had not been in the carousel club at anytime? mr. weissman. i don't know if i repeated it at that time. i just made a point of saying that he had better check his facts and talk with me also, and get both sides of the story here, before he got himself in trouble. by trouble, i had assumed he knew what i meant--i meant a lawsuit. and i would have sued him, but i could not find a lawyer to handle the case. they said any publicity that comes out of it would be only bad. so i dropped it. several days later---- mr. jenner. have you finished the conversation? mr. weissman. i have finished the conversation with him. several days later i got ahold of his office number. mr. jenner. would you fix the time of this town hall meeting broadcast, as best you can. mr. weissman. i am pretty sure it was on the th or the morning of the th--on the town hall thing? that was the afternoon of the th of april, i believe. i believe it was april. it was prior to his coming to a hearing here at the commission. and in any case, i telephoned him several days after our radio and telephone conversation--i telephoned him at his office in manhattan and got him on the line again. and i said, "well, what has happened?" i was very curious as to what he had done about this. mr. jenner. where did you reach him? mr. weissman. at his office in manhattan. i do not know the address. i had first contacted a law firm he was associated with previously, and they gave me his office number in lower manhattan. and i telephoned him at his office. the secretary answered, then he got on the line. and he said this time--i don't recall exactly what was said before or after this particular part of the conversation. but i said that i want to meet this guy in dallas, the one who told him this story and call him a liar to his face, and that i wanted it to be a public meeting, and mark lane said he would arrange for a public meeting, he would pay my transportation to dallas to see this guy as soon as he could arrange a meeting. and i have not heard from him since. mr. jenner. to check that date you gave us again. mr. weissman--mr. lane appeared before the commission on wednesday, march , . mr. weissman. march ? march? i did not think it was that long ago. if he appeared march , then the conversation--well, i stand corrected. i am not positive of the month. mr. jenner. it might have been february ? mr. weissman. it might have been. if it was march he appeared here, it might have been february , because there seemed to be several weeks lapse between his coming here---- mr. jenner. are you certain, however, that your telephone conversation with him the evening of the broadcast following the town hall meeting was before he appeared before the commission? mr. weissman. unless he appeared twice, i am a percent positive. mr. jenner. and from what source did your information come that he had appeared before the commission? mr. weissman. newspapers. mr. jenner. i think we can close this. i show you garner exhibit no. . did you ever see the person who is shown on that photograph? mr. weissman. no. mr. jenner. i show you commission exhibit no. and direct your attention to the man in the white tee shirt between the two policemen. did you ever see him before? mr. weissman. no. mr. jenner. prior to november , , had you ever seen him? mr. weissman. never. mr. jenner. and except for these photographs, and whatever newspaper clippings or photos you have seen since november , or television shows on or after november , have you ever seen that person in the flesh? mr. weissman. never. mr. jenner. did you ever have any contact with him of any kind? mr. weissman. never. mr. jenner. telephone calls, letters, memoranda of any kind or character? mr. weissman. never. mr. jenner. mr. chairman, there is correspondence that mr. weissman has, and i wonder if it would be convenient with the commission if we could return at : . in the meantime i will be able to look at some of the material he has to see if any of it is relevant and helpful to the commission. mr. dulles. i would like to adjourn at this time if we can, because i have a luncheon appointment. mr. jenner. that is what i am suggesting, sir. mr. dulles. good. we will adjourn until : . (whereupon, at : p.m., the president's commission recessed.) afternoon session testimony of bernard william weissman resumed the president's commission reconvened at : p.m. (the chairman and mr. dulles being present.) the chairman. the commission will be in order. you may proceed. mr. jenner. thank you. mr. chief justice. whereupon, bernard weissman was recalled as a witness and having been previously duly sworn, testified further as follows: mr. jenner. mr. chief justice, during the luncheon hour mr. weissman has afforded us an opportunity to examine some of this correspondence, to which he made reference this morning. i have selected a few of these pieces of correspondence as rounding out the genesis of cusa and its affiliate, ambus, and the infiltration of the rightist organizations in dallas that the witness described. i will identify these without reading from them, as some of them are rather lengthy. the chairman. very well. mr. jenner. first, mr. weissman, i have a letter on the letterhead of national indignation convention, the top of which has scrawled in ink longhand "top secret." it is a five-page longhand letter. at the bottom of each is written the word "destroy." i have marked an envelope postmarked dallas, tex., on november , as commission exhibit no. , the first exhibit being identified as commission exhibit no. . (the documents referred to were marked respectively commission exhibits nos. and for identification.) mr. jenner. the envelope is addressed to sp- larry jones, apo station , new york, n.y. mr. weissman. yes, sir. mr. jenner. do you recognize the handwriting on the envelope? mr. weissman. yes; that is larrie's. mr. jenner. and the larry jones is the man to whom you made reference in your testimony? mr. weissman. yes, sir. mr. jenner. the document commission exhibit no. , do you recognize that handwriting? mr. weissman. it appears to be larrie's. mr. jenner. do you recognize it? mr. weissman. yes. mr. jenner. and was document commission exhibit no. , enclosed in the envelope marked commission exhibit no. ? mr. dulles. is there any signature on those documents? mr. weissman. this page should be last. mr. jenner. on the page which is marked with a circle , there appears to be a signature l-a-r-r-i-e. do you recognize that signature? mr. weissman. that is larrie schmidt's signature. mr. jenner. how did you come into possession of the documents now identified, one of which was addressed to larry jones rather than you? mr. weissman. larry jones gave it to me. mr. jenner. where? mr. weissman. in munich, germany. mr. jenner. and when he handed the document to you was exhibit no. enclosed in exhibit no. ? mr. weissman. yes, sir. mr. jenner. next is a three-page letter dated dallas, tex., january , , typewritten, addressed to "dear bernie." is that you? mr. weissman. yes. mr. jenner. marked as commission exhibit no. . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. jenner. it is signed in typing "larrie." a document of five pages marked commission exhibit no. on the first page of which appears the signature larrie h. schmidt. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. jenner. do you recognize that signature? mr. weissman. yes, sir. mr. jenner. whose is it? mr. weissman. larrie schmidt's. mr. jenner. the last of this series of letter-sized papers is a five-page document titled "a code of conduct for members of conservatism u.s.a." which has been marked commission exhibit no. . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. jenner. i understand that these three documents that i have now identified were enclosed in an envelope which has been marked commission exhibit no. , in the upper left-hand corner, l. h. schmidt, b lewis street, dallas , tex., addressed to private first class bernie weissman. is that you? mr. weissman. that is me. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. jenner. that is postmarked dallas, january , . did you receive the documents, now identified as commission exhibits nos. , , , and ? mr. weissman. yes, i did. mr. jenner. were the first of those three--were the first three of those exhibits i have named enclosed in the document identified as commission exhibit no. ? mr. weissman. yes. mr. jenner. i have already identified the signature. these documents relate to the development of and plans for cusa, do they not? mr. weissman. they do. mr. jenner. and the conduct of cusa? mr. weissman. yes, sir. mr. jenner. the next two documents, a three-page letter typed on the top "headquarters conservatism u.s.a.," dated february , , at dallas, tex., b lewis street, which i have marked as commission exhibit no. . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. jenner. this is addressed "to all members." it is signed in typing "sincerely, larrie." have you seen that document before? mr. weissman. yes; i have. mr. jenner. and was it enclosed in an envelope? mr. weissman. it was. mr. jenner. was it sent to you? mr. weissman. yes; it was. mr. jenner. is that document the envelope commission exhibit no. ? mr. weissman. that is right. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. jenner. there is handwriting on the face of exhibit no. . whose handwriting is that? mr. weissman. that is mine. mr. jenner. read it. mr. weissman. "meeting with bob morris. infiltration of yaf by cusa." mr. jenner. mr. chief justice and members of the commission, the three-page document relates to a meeting held in the home of dr. morris. is that dr. robert morris? mr. weissman. that is right, of dallas, tex. mr. jenner. which recounts the plans for infiltration of conservative groups in dallas, tex., upon which the witness has somewhat expanded in his testimony this morning. mr. dulles. has the witness indicated who mr. bob morris was? i don't recall that. mr. weissman. bob morris at that time was president of the defenders of american liberties in dallas, tex., and recently was a candidate for political office in dallas. mr. dulles. what office? mr. weissman. i believe he was running in the primary for senator. mr. jenner. u.s. senate. mr. weissman. u.s. senator. mr. jenner. i just want to be sure i have covered this. you received both of the documents now marked commission exhibits nos. and in due course through the u.s. mail at your station in munich, germany? mr. weissman. yes, sir; i did. mr. jenner. the next series is--consists of a two-page letter which has been marked commission exhibit no. , addressed to "dear bernie" at dallas, tex., on june , , also signed in typing "best, larrie." that is again larrie schmidt, is it? mr. weissman. yes. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. jenner. that document was enclosed in what? mr. weissman. in this envelope here. mr. jenner. and the envelope is marked commission exhibit no. ? mr. weissman. that's right. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. jenner. for the purposes of the record, commission exhibit no. is an envelope postmarked at dallas, tex., on june , . the envelope is imprinted with "young americans for freedom. inc., southwestern u.s. regional headquarters, p.o. box , dallas , texas," and addressed to pfc. bernie weissman. that is you? mr. weissman. yes. mr. jenner. was there anything else enclosed in an envelope? mr. weissman. i believe it was this. mr. jenner. a newspaper clipping from the dallas morning news which has been marked and identified as commission exhibit no. . is that right? mr. weissman. that's right. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. jenner. the caption of this reads "panel reports birch society dedicated but not dangerous." those three documents were received by you from larrie schmidt? mr. weissman. that is right. mr. jenner. the third from the last of this series, a letter dated at dallas, tex., june , , addressed to "dear bernie," commission exhibit no. . also in typing "larrie." who is that? mr. weissman. larrie schmidt. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. jenner. there is some handwriting at the bottom of that letter--do you recognize it? mr. weissman. yes; that is larrie schmidt's. mr. jenner. did you receive that document? mr. weissman. i did. mr. jenner. and was the handwriting on the document when you received it? mr. weissman. yes; it was. mr. jenner. was it enclosed in an envelope? mr. weissman. yes; it was. mr. jenner. you received the mail, then. mr. weissman. yes. mr. jenner. in the envelope i now show you marked commission exhibit no. -a? mr. weissman. yes. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. -a for identification.) mr. jenner. addressed to you. was there something further enclosed with those? mr. weissman. i think this piece. mr. jenner. which is commission exhibit no. -b. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. -b for identification.) mr. jenner. this is a handbill of young americans for freedom, inc. mr. weissman. that's right. mr. jenner. you received all three documents i have now identified as commission exhibits nos. , -a, and -b in due course through the u.s. mail. mr. weissman. yes; i did. mr. jenner. next to the last of this series is a letter, single page marked commission exhibit no. , dated june , , at dallas, tex., addressed to "dear bernie" signed again in typewriting as "larrie." have you seen that document before? mr. weissman. yes; i have. mr. jenner. when did you first see it? mr. weissman. when i received it in the mail. mr. jenner. i show you an envelope marked commission exhibit no. -a. (the document was marked commission exhibit no. -a for identification.) mr. jenner. is that envelope the envelope in which commission exhibit no. was enclosed? mr. weissman. yes; and as a reference, the handwriting on the outside of these envelopes on this and the other exhibits that refer to the contents were put on by me about a week ago, so i could identify it. mr. jenner. please read what you have written on the face of commission exhibit no. -a. mr. weissman. "ready to take over yaf. jones in dallas. ducharme club." mr. jenner. and that ducharme club is the club, the private club, semi-private club in dallas that you mentioned in your testimony this morning. mr. weissman. yes. mr. jenner. lastly, a single-page exhibit, commission exhibit no. , dated at munich, germany, on july , . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. jenner. this purports to be a copy of a letter apparently from you to larrie schmidt, is that correct, sir? mr. weissman. that's right. mr. jenner. and this is a carbon copy of the actual letter? mr. weissman. that's right. mr. jenner. did you mail the original of this? mr. weissman. i did. mr. jenner. to whom? mr. weissman. larrie schmidt. mr. jenner. on or about the date this letter bears? mr. weissman. that's right. mr. dulles. what date is that? mr. jenner. july , . on commission exhibit no. , which is the envelope which enclosed several other exhibits, there is some handwriting. it that yours? mr. weissman. yes. mr. jenner. would you read it. mr. weissman. "membership list . code of conduct and introduction to cusa. ultimatum." mr. jenner. and that is a shorthand description or summary of the contents of the envelope? mr. weissman. yes. mr. jenner. on commission exhibit no. , which is also an envelope, there appears to be written on the face "nic infiltration." whose handwriting it that? mr. weissman. that's mine. mr. jenner. and you put it on there under the circumstances you have now related? mr. weissman. yes, sir. mr. jenner. mr. weissman, i will show you commission exhibit no. . have you ever seen a counterpart of that exhibit which is entitled "wanted for treason"? mr. weissman. never directly. mr. jenner. tell us about your first acquaintance with that, with the circumstances, if you know, of how it came into existence, and who had anything to do with it. mr. weissman. well, i can only go by hearsay on this--what i have seen and what i have heard from other individuals. mr. jenner. did this come to your attention before november , , or after? mr. weissman. after. mr. jenner. tell what you know, please. mr. weissman. i had heard that these handbills were distributed somewhere in north dallas, i believe, on the university campus i believe it was, the university of dallas campus. mr. jenner. from what source did you hear this? mr. weissman. now, i think it was--i am not sure--i think it might have been larrie or his brother bob. i am not sure. larrie declaimed any knowledge of this. i know he had nothing to do with this particular handbill. mr. jenner. how do you know that? mr. weissman. he would have told me. mr. jenner. that's the basis for your supposition? mr. weissman. yes; and i saw this handbill, or something similar to it, in the back of a station wagon used by larrie's brother bob in transporting---- mr. jenner. when? mr. weissman. this was several days after the assassination. there was one crumpled up in the back. and i happened to look through the window and see it. this was in front of the ducharme club, as a matter of fact. it was one night. and i saw this. and i saw something "treason"--i had heard about the handbills. mr. jenner. from whom? mr. weissman. excuse me? mr. jenner. from whom, sir? mr. weissman. i think it was larrie. i cannot be hundred percent sure. i did not take too much interest in it at the time. but in any case, i did see something resembling this, only it seemed to be a larger picture of president kennedy. but in any case, it was in the back of a station wagon owned by general walker, edwin walker, or by what--if incorporated, by the corporation he is with, chairman of. mr. jenner. how did you know that? mr. weissman. well, i know that bob was general walker's chauffeur, and by seeing this crumpled up in the back, behind the front seat on the floor of the car, i naturally assumed that it had something to do with general walker. exactly what or how, or if he had distributed it, i have no idea. i do not have the faintest idea. i did not go into it any further, because i felt that everything was past, and i was leaving dallas anyway. i had made up my mind. (at this point, senator cooper entered the hearing room.) mr. jenner. when you say you had heard about this matter, that is the handbill, or handbill similar to it, had you heard about that before november , ? mr. weissman. not to my recollection, no. mr. jenner. shortly after that? mr. weissman. yes. mr. jenner. and before you left dallas? mr. weissman. yes. mr. jenner. did you have anything to do with the bringing into existence of this or similar handbills? mr. weissman. none; none whatsoever. mr. jenner. other than the possibility of bob schmidt having something to do with them under the circumstances you have related, did any others of your group have anything to do with creating this type of literature and distribution of handbills? mr. weissman. none that i know of. the chairman. how about the names of those people who were in on it? mr. jenner. on the handbill? the chairman. yes. mr. jenner. did you become acquainted at any time with robert a. surrey? mr. weissman. no. mr. jenner. with robert g. klause? mr. weissman. no. mr. jenner. with j. t. monk? mr. weissman. no. mr. jenner. did you become acquainted at any time with the johnson printing co.? mr. weissman. no. mr. jenner. did you have any materials printed--and when i say you, i mean you or your group--while you were in dallas? mr. weissman. not that i know of. i personally have no knowledge of anything being printed. mr. jenner. did you ever hear of the lettercraft printing co.? mr. weissman. no; i have not. mr. jenner. did you ever hear of ashland frederick birchwell? mr. weissman. no. mr. jenner. or have any contact with him? mr. weissman. not that i know of. i guess i must have met two or three dozen people. for example, when we went up to joe grinnan's office at various times, we would come down and eat in the cafeteria, and there would be somebody sitting with him, and there would be introductions. i never remembered their names, because it was just in passing. i never had any personal contact, really. mr. jenner. did you meet general walker at any time while you were in dallas? mr. weissman. never did. mr. jenner. did you meet anybody or know anybody by the name of mercer? mr. weissman. no. mr. jenner. while you were in dallas--mrs. clifford or dorothy mercer? mr. weissman. no. mr. jenner. or mr. clifford mercer? mr. weissman. definitely not. mr. jenner. among the exhibits we have identified this afternoon is a list of members. those were the members of cusa as of that particular time? mr. weissman. yes. mr. jenner. and the changes in membership you have recounted in your testimony this morning, is that correct, sir? mr. weissman. yes; i am sorry--i knew i had left something out of one of those. i do not know which exhibit is. but it is the one that says---- mr. jenner. i will hand them back to you, and you can tell me. you now have in your hand a sheet of paper. mr. weissman. yes. mr. jenner. i take it that sheet of paper came from one of the envelopes we have already marked? mr. weissman. this one here. mr. jenner. the answer is yes? mr. weissman. yes. mr. jenner. i will mark this sheet as commission exhibit no. . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. jenner. would you tell us in what envelope commission exhibit no. was enclosed? mr. weissman. commission exhibit no. . mr. jenner. and what is commission exhibit no. ? mr. weissman. commission exhibit no. was a current membership list as of about january , . if you like, i can go over this and tell you who was in no way really associated with it at the time or active. mr. dulles. membership in cusa? mr. weissman. in cusa, yes. it lists larrie schmidt, larry c. jones, bernie weissman, norman baker, james moseley as partners. members as ken glazbrook, bob weiss, who was not active after about--at about the time this was printed--these men dropped from the active list. herb starr was not active. chuck mclain was not active. richard harsch was not active. hank tanaro was not active. sheila mcdonald was not active. and the rest of the list were active in one form or another--some to a much lesser degree than the others. mr. jenner. now, the -odd responses that you received to commission exhibit no. , when you went to the post office box on the following sunday, the th of november , did you recognize the names of any of the persons who responded? mr. weissman. none--none at all. mr. jenner. was there any response from jack ruby? mr. weissman. not under his name. mr. jenner. and you say about a third of those responses were favorable and two-thirds unfavorable. mr. weissman. that's right. mr. jenner. insofar as the questions asked on exhibit--commission exhibit no. are concerned? mr. weissman. yes. the chairman. when you said there was no letter in the box under the name of jack ruby does that infer that there was one by any other name? mr. weissman. well, to put it very exact, if i did receive a letter from jack ruby, i have no knowledge of it. the chairman. that is what i wanted to know. mr. jenner. and apart from--i asked you also the general question whether you recognized any names. i would like to add to that--did you recognize in reading over any of those letters or responses any persons, regardless of what name was signed to the document? mr. weissman. none whatsoever. mr. jenner. during the noon recess i have had the witness read through an interview with him by the fbi on the th of december . you have read that? mr. weissman. yes; i have. mr. jenner. does that accurately reflect the interview which the fbi had with you on that day? mr. weissman. it does. the only variance you might find is that at the time i had the interview with the fbi, i did not develop the cusa story with them. and they did not press the issue, and i did not go into it. mr. jenner. but it does accurately reflect what took place during the course of that interview. mr. weissman. exactly. mr. jenner. what you said--it reports it accurately. mr. weissman. yes; very accurately. mr. jenner. mr. chief justice, i was using this method in order to shorten the balance of mr. weissman's testimony. there are many details here that i wanted to spare the commission. i will mark that with the next exhibit number, commission exhibit no. . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. jenner. mr. chief justice, i offer in evidence the exhibits which have been identified--i will read the exhibit numbers. commission exhibits nos. through , both inclusive, with some of the envelopes designated with subletters a, and one of the other documents designated with the subletter b. i ask that those exhibits be admitted in evidence with the exhibit numbers which appear on them, each of which has been recited in the record. the chairman. they may be admitted under those numbers. (the documents referred to, heretofore marked for identification as commission exhibits nos. through inclusive, were received in evidence.) mr. jenner. i have no further questions of the witness. mr. flannery, do you have anything? the chairman. mr. dulles, do you have any questions you would like to ask? mr. dulles. just one general question. from the questions which have been addressed to you, mr. weissman, you have a general idea of what the commission, the area of search of the commission is so far as you are concerned. mr. weissman. yes. mr. dulles. did anything occur to you of any significance which you could add or would like to add to the answers you have made to the questions you have already given? mr. weissman. excuse me, please. there is just one thing but it is a question of--it is not a positive identification or anything like that. but on the day i went to the post office to pick up the mail there was a gentleman waiting, observing the box, the post office box in the dallas post office. now, bill burley was waiting in my car outside, driving around the block because the traffic was quite heavy. i went in with ken glazbrook, who had just come to dallas about a day or so before by bus from the east coast. he got off a freighter from sweden. and this individual seemed to be about--i would put him at about years old. and i thought about it since. and i said that might have been jack ruby, because he was short enough to be. but my recollection of the individual that followed me, when we subsequently lost in the crowd, and jumped into the car and took off, was that one time not more than feet away from me--though i did not stare into his face, because i did not know if this fellow was going to shoot me or say something. mr. jenner. you were then frightened; were you not? mr. weissman. yes, sir. and we went across through traffic and up a street and down a street and lost this individual and jumped into the car and took off back to the apartment. and to this day i do not know whether it was ruby--because frankly my recollection of the individual on the pictures i have seen of ruby in the newspapers, they do not seem to jibe--just the size. this fellow was about foot or so. he was wearing tan clothing with a stetson hat, a tan stetson hat. mr. jenner. a typical texas western hat, sometimes called a -gallon hat? mr. weissman. that's right. and this is about the only thing else i have to add. mr. jenner. did he follow you? mr. weissman. he followed us from the box down the steps of the post office to the traffic light. we crossed the street, he walked up the other side of the street adjacent to the post office, directly opposite us. and we were going halfway up and he started to cross the corner. we quickly ran back to the corner, across which we came. at that time bill had come around the corner in the car, he knew nothing about it, we jumped in, sat down low and went in a straight line, made the turn and went back to the apartment. and i have never seen the individual since. mr. dulles. this post office box from which you were taking the mail, was that box the one that was advertised in the paper? mr. weissman. yes. mr. dulles. so that the number of that box was known. mr. weissman. yes; it was. this individual was obviously waiting for me. i did not see him. ken pointed him out to me. we expected possibly some sort of trouble there. and ken was walking about feet to the right of me, on another side of the post office tables that are in the middle of the aisle. so if i got in any difficulty he would be there to help. and he noticed this individual and pointed him out to me. and this fellow just followed us right out, and that was that. mr. dulles. as i recall, you fixed the time when you went to the mail box as probably sometime sunday morning. mr. weissman. yes, sir. mr. dulles. can you be any more definite as to the time sunday morning when you were there? mr. weissman. i am almost percent sure it was between and o'clock. mr. dulles. in the morning? mr. weissman. yes, sir. mr. dulles. i have no further questions. the chairman. senator cooper, have you any questions? senator cooper. what age did the man seem to be? mr. weissman. about . senator cooper. i have two or three other questions. did your organization, cusa, ever consider violence as a means to reaching its objectives? mr. weissman. this had been--i don't remember exactly. it had been hashed over in skull sessions, so many things come up, and you talk about it and throw it away. these things did come up over the year or so that i was involved in it in munich, and thrown out. no. in schedules that we had made up, we figured probable political happenings over a period of years, and we took into account there might be a war for example in or or , and what would happen before or after, or who would probably be president at that time, and the type of action america would take. but it had never gone any further than a lot of supposition. senator cooper. did you consider the advertisements in the paper there as possibly inciting to violence under the circumstances? mr. weissman. definitely not. senator cooper. was that considered at all? mr. weissman. definitely not. at least not by me. and nobody ever mentioned it. senator cooper. this group of men that you have named, of which you were one, who formed this cusa with objectives, both political and business you said? mr. weissman. yes, sir. senator cooper. was there any background of writings or theory of any kind upon which you depended? where did it come from? mr. weissman. let's see. you are putting me in sort of a box but i will answer you. we read, for example--for example, i did not know i was a conservative until i got to germany. i just knew how i felt. but i never identified myself with any particular political leaning. i thought i was a democrat, an independent voter and independent thinker. for example, i voted for kennedy in and i would have voted against him in . but this is neither here nor there. we were asked--not asked--we had a list of required reading. in other words, if you are going to expound the conservative philosophy we figured you should know something about it, a little bit of the background, aside from your own personal feelings. so we read, for example--i didn't--i never did find the time to do it--some of the fellows read "conscience of a conservative" by barry goldwater, one or two books that barry goldwater had written, and "atlas shrugged" by ayn rand, which i did not read. mr. jenner. did the others read them? mr. weissman. i guess larrie read them, because he suggested these. there were many times when i said yes--i yessed him to death, and did as i pleased. and this is one of the cases. senator cooper. that was about the extent of your reading background? mr. weissman. not completely. in other words, i cannot point to any specific volumes that i read for the specific purpose of giving me a certain background. in other words, i am motivated personally by my own feelings in the situation, and the particular dogma that you might read in a book does not interest me too much. senator cooper. as one of your aims, did you have the purpose of making some money out of this movement? mr. weissman. out of the movement itself, no. out of the business, yes. because i think it would be foolish to go on the premise that if we would devote ourselves a hundred percent to politics that we could make money at it, because there are laws against it, and in order to survive while you are in politics, you have to have a business interest, managed by yourself part time or by others full time, that can support you while you devote yourself to politics. senator cooper. was this business interest to be these organizations which you were going to infiltrate and whose treasuries you might capture? mr. weissman. no. senator cooper. or was it to be--you hoped to develop businesses because of your political influence; is that it? mr. weissman. yes; to put it straight on the record, we had discussed this, and what we would do if we came into any of the treasuries of these organizations. we felt that you can incur a lot of legal problems if you are caught taking funds, tax-free funds, and using it for personal gain and so forth. i am sure there are laws against it. exactly which ones, i do not know. i am sure there are laws against it. and so we felt there is nothing wrong, and it is done occasionally in government, where occasionally you would use--you would meet someone politically--because generally these are more affluent individuals, people in politics. by dint of their drive they have acquired property or moneys, et cetera. and these individuals might be willing to invest some of their capital in some up-and-coming young businessmen, young politicians. and we had hoped to get some money this way. plus the fact, by using our heads, by setting up businesses on our own that would support us in the political goal. senator cooper. did you study methods of propaganda? mr. weissman. study methods of propaganda? no; we had discussed ways of bringing about recruitment and so forth, in the way of pamphlets, or things of that nature, but this never got out of the talking stage itself. as a matter of fact---- senator cooper. you felt the way to move into political life quickly was to get into these extreme organizations which do use a great deal of propaganda, and are against things? mr. weissman. yes; in general, we thought these organizations because they grew so quickly, would be relatively unorganized and easy to infiltrate, and this proves to be quite true. they were more or less autonomous within their own regions, and they did not have a national director keeping tabs on everything they did. i have something here that was made up. it is just a list. i just happened to remember. publicity tactics, for example--rallies, hangings--these are effigies, i would imagine--demonstrations, picketing, sit-downs, stickers, billboards, boycotts, lectures, songfests, talkathons, telephone campaigns, door-to-door campaigns. publicity--letters, brochures, pamphlets, booklets, stationery, flags, songs, emblems on blazers, stickers, match covers, billboards, radio, tv, newspapers, magazines, streetcars, taxicabs. fund-raising would be personal solicitation, get firms to do things free for us, parties, teas, bridges, lectures, assessments, dues, sale of books, pins, buttons, stationery, flags, emblems, match covers, brochures, and pamphlets. that is it. mr. jenner. that was your program? mr. weissman. this was our advertising program; yes, sir. senator cooper. some of these activities are certainly activities carried on by political parties. but did it ever occur to you that some of the activities which you planned, in fact which you undertook, such as infiltration into an organization, to try to seize control of it, and these methods that you used--do you consider that as in the regular spirit of our system of government? mr. weissman. i would say this, sir. senator cooper. democratic system you spoke of? mr. weissman. it was a question of doing something like that, or absolutely nothing at all, never getting off the ground. and while my belief would say no, of course not, this is not the way you do it, this is not the way it should be done, but it was expedient at the time to do this. and plus the fact that you certainly could not make these organizations any worse than they were. and as far as i felt, if we could bring them around to our way of thinking or my way of thinking, we could have brought them around to where they were more beneficial to the country rather than detrimental. senator cooper. that is all i want to ask. the chairman. i noticed on the list that you had there of techniques was hangings. now, you said--you added to that, i think, that that meant hanging in effigy, you assumed. is that right? mr. weissman. i am percent sure, your honor, that that is what it meant. in other words, this was just ways to attract attention, and the college students are doing it all the time. it was just sort of tossing it all in a pot and then putting it down on paper. the chairman. is that not provocative to violence? mr. weissman. no; i think in the context that we meant it, that it was just another way of getting possibly some publicity--like if students in a university do not like their professor, for example, or if they win a football game, they will hang the opposing team in effigy, or the captain, or what have you. and it attracts a certain amount of publicity and talk. we had to gain recognition in order to accomplish some of the goals that i had stated previously. and this is just another way. in this case, you have to consider us as young men, and effigy hanging, you know, is just part of a young idea. the chairman. i think that is all. thank you very much, mr. weissman. you may be excused. and mr. flannery, thank you very much for your cooperation. if there are any questions you would like to ask, you may feel free to do so now. mr. flannery. i have nothing. the chairman. very well. (at this point in the hearing, chairman warren left the hearing room and the witness robert g. klause entered.) testimony of robert g. klause mr. dulles. would you kindly raise your right hand? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. klause. yes, sir. mr. jenner. you are robert g. klause? mr. klause. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and you appear here voluntarily today? mr. klause. yes, sir. mr. jenner. i may say, mr. chairman, i reached mr. klause in dallas yesterday afternoon. he had just returned from a -week vacation. he volunteered to come. the secret service got him on a plane with but minutes to spare, and no baggage. this he did to accommodate the commission. mr. klause is here to testify with respect to the genesis and dissemination of the "wanted for treason" handbill, commission exhibit no. . mr. dulles. proceed, please. mr. jenner. your age, please? mr. klause. . mr. jenner. you are a married man? mr. klause. yes, sir. mr. jenner. you were born and reared in this country? mr. klause. yes, sir. mr. jenner. likewise your wife? mr. klause. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and your parents? mr. klause. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and you reside in texas? mr. klause. yes, sir. mr. jenner. where? mr. klause. dallas. mr. jenner. what address? mr. klause. south waverly. mr. jenner. and what is the name of your mother? mr. klause. dorothy anna mercer. mr. jenner. and is she engaged in a printing business in dallas? mr. klause. yes, sir. mr. jenner. she and her husband? mr. klause. yes, sir. mr. jenner. what is her husband's first name? clifford? mr. klause. clifford; yes, sir. mr. jenner. are you employed in their business? mr. klause. yes, sir. mr. jenner. is that the lettercraft printing co.? mr. klause. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and that is located where? mr. klause. oak lawn, dallas. mr. jenner. and how long have you been employed in the lettercraft printing co.? mr. klause. i would say approximately about a year and a half. i think we have been open about a year and a half, it might be going on years. mr. jenner. and tell us what the nature of that printing company is. mr. klause. offset lithography, letterheads, statements, envelopes, things like that. mr. jenner. is it a small house? mr. klause. yes, sir. mr. jenner. were you employed theretofore by a different printing company? mr. klause. sir? mr. jenner. were you formerly employed by another printing company in dallas? mr. klause. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and that was johnson printing co.? mr. klause. johnson printing co.; yes, sir. with several other companies in town. mr. jenner. i see. and where is johnson printing co. located? mr. klause. i think it is the block of haskell in dallas. mr. jenner. did you become acquainted with robert a. surrey while you were employed at johnson printing co.? mr. klause. yes, sir. mr. jenner. had you known him before that? mr. klause. no, sir. mr. jenner. i show you a document which has been identified and admitted in evidence as commission exhibit no. . the particular document i show you is a xerox reproduction of the original exhibit. did you play some part in producing the original, the original copy and materials from which the exhibit no. i show you was prepared? mr. klause. i am not too sure what you mean but as far as laying--laying the job out, no, sir. now, like i said, i ran the job. i shot the negatives. mr. jenner. perhaps we can get at it this way, sir. when first did you have any connection with this matter? mr. klause. approximately, i would say, a month before president kennedy came to town. mr. jenner. how did that arise? mr. klause. mr. surrey called on me and asked me if i would run a job. mr. jenner. you say he called on you. where were you when he called on you? mr. klause. i believe i was at the shop. in fact, i know i was at the shop. he must have called me at the shop. mr. jenner. when you say shop, you mean the lettercraft printing co.? mr. klause. yes, sir. mr. jenner. he came to lettercraft printing co.? mr. klause. no, sir; he called. mr. jenner. what did he say? mr. klause. he said that he had a little job he would like to have run, and would i run it myself? mr. jenner. and you responded? mr. klause. i said yes, sir. mr. jenner. did he come over to your shop? mr. klause. mr. jenner, to be honest with you, really i do not remember now. i might have gone out, or he might have come over. to be perfectly honest, right at the present time i do not remember. mr. jenner. did i understand you to say that you said to him you would run it yourself? mr. klause. yes, sir. mr. jenner. you mean by that something distinct from or having lettercraft printing co. run it? mr. klause. he asked me if i was interested in doing a little job on the side, and i said yes, sir. mr. jenner. by "on the side," does that mean that you were going to do some reproduction printing for him, other than as a job for the lettercraft printing co.? mr. klause. yes, sir. you see, i have my own shop. mr. jenner. you do? mr. klause. yes, sir. mr. jenner. where is that located? mr. klause. actually, i operate out of my house. but i have always had my own shop. i mean i have two or three little insert accounts that i do, and a couple of beauty suppliers. they will come in and want letterheads. for a long time, when i was out of work, i went out and solicited work door to door. then i would job them out to other printers. and then when i could get my hands on a press, i would run them myself. mr. jenner. was mr. surrey aware of this practice? mr. klause. yes, sir; i am sure he was. mr. jenner. and he proposed to you at the outset that you do it "on the side"? mr. klause. yes, sir. mr. jenner. now, you met with mr. surrey after this telephone call? mr. klause. yes, sir. mr. jenner. do you recall whether it was at your home or whether it was at the lettercraft co. or some other place? mr. klause. actually, like i say, mr. jenner, i am not real sure. i do not know whether it was out at--i am pretty sure it was not at the shop. and mr. surrey has never been to my house. and so it must have been out. mr. jenner. now, there are two reproductions of president kennedy, a profile and a front view. did you prepare the plates from which those profiles were made? mr. klause. by preparing the plates--the only thing that i actually did is--either it was two newspaper clippings or magazine clippings. mr. jenner. from whom did you receive the magazine clippings? mr. klause. from mr. surrey. mr. jenner. they were slick paper magazine clippings? mr. klause. something on a slick paper basis; yes, sir. mr. jenner. that contained the front and profile of president kennedy, which is reproduced on commission exhibit no. ? mr. klause. yes, sir. mr. jenner. now, what did you do with those two slick magazine reproductions of president kennedy's head? mr. klause. well, i tried to shoot them, and i could not shoot them. we have our own camera. we take a picture of it--reproduce it. mr. jenner. you must assume that none of us is experienced in the printing business. and when you say "shoot"---- mr. klause. i will explain myself more carefully. when they were brought to me---- mr. jenner. by mr. surrey? mr. klause. yes, sir. then i tried to make negatives of them---- mr. jenner. negatives on film? mr. klause. yes, sir; on film. mr. jenner. yes. mr. klause. i could not do it. when i take a picture of copy, on most of your offset or lithography work, you have dot patterns. and when i would try to use my camera, the dot patterns would kind of blur, and you could not see what it was. it was just a big blur. so i sent the negatives of the two pictures downtown, down to monk brothers lithography service downtown, which shoots nothing but negatives. mr. jenner. that is j. t. monk? mr. klause. tommy monk, of monk bros. mr. jenner. j. t. monk is the father, and tommy monk, or j. t. monk, jr., is the son. mr. klause. the only person i know down there is tommy. mr. jenner. he is a young man? mr. klause. no, sir; tommy i have known or years. he is somewhere around , , probably. mr. jenner. is he the apparent owner or manager at least of this---- mr. klause. yes, sir. mr. jenner. is it a lithography company? mr. klause. well, it is a negative service. in other words, what they do is supply the printers with blanks, and ink, and ink knives, different fountain solutions, things like that, for the press, and also they have their own cameras. they have probably two $ , or $ , cameras there. and, of course, they can produce work from their cameras i cannot touch on my little camera, or our camera at the shop. mr. jenner. so you took the two magazine pictures of president kennedy to monk bros.? mr. klause. yes, sir. mr. jenner. for the purpose of having monk bros. make negatives, film negatives of them? mr. klause. yes, sir. mr. jenner. which in turn were to be employed to do what? mr. klause. to be employed to be run on this job. i mean it was part of this piece right here. mr. jenner. and do you recall what the charge was by monk bros. for that service? mr. klause. no, sir; i think it was around three and a half, four and a half, something like that. mr. jenner. did you pay in cash? mr. klause. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and you paid in cash because you did not want it charged to lettercraft printing co.? mr. klause. no, sir; i originally had a charge account at monk bros. but i still owe a little on my bill down there; and at the time i just rather had paid for it. not knowing what the job was then anyway--i mean when i go down there and buy supplies for myself, since--i owe the man money, i try whatever i can to pay for, because i have got a pretty nice little bill down there now, and i do not want to run it up any higher. mr. jenner. when you received the negatives, then what did you do with the negatives? mr. klause. well, the bottom part was shot, or picture was made with the camera at our shop; and then i stripped the negative in. in other words, i put the two top pieces, the picture and the bottom part together. and then made a plate on it. mr. jenner. made a plate from those negatives? mr. klause. yes, sir. mr. jenner. in turn to be employed in printing the handbill? mr. klause. yes, sir. mr. jenner. when you received those negatives, did you again communicate with mr. surrey? mr. klause. i do not believe i understand what you mean, mr. jenner. mr. jenner. after you obtained usable negatives from monk bros., did you advise mr. surrey that you now had obtained those usable negatives and would be able to proceed with the job? mr. klause. no, sir. mr. jenner. had mr. surrey advised you as to how many he wished of these handbills? mr. klause. approximately--he said approximately , , , . mr. jenner. you made a plate from which the front and profile of president kennedy as appears on exhibit no. was made? mr. klause. yes, sir. mr. jenner. now, there is copy below the profile and front view, as you will notice on the exhibit before you. from what source did you receive that copy? mr. klause. that copy came, sir; as was--just approximately about the way it is here. i do not know whether it was typed on--i do not know that much about a varitypewriter. or it might have been letterpress. somebody might have set it up letterpress or linotype, and ran a press proof; i do not know. mr. jenner. from whom did you receive that press-proof copy? mr. klause. i received all the copy from mr. surrey. mr. jenner. and the copy, then, as you received it from mr. surrey, which is in turn reflected on commission exhibit no. , was in the form at that time, when you received it from mr. surrey, that it now appears in on commission exhibit no. ? mr. klause. yes, sir. mr. jenner. how did you reproduce it onto the handbill? mr. klause. well, this was run offset, like i said, all of it was put on film. then it was burnt into what we call a metal plate, which we expose to light. it is a light-sensitive plate, and any time light hits it, where you have clear spots on your film, that image of the light will burn into your plate. when you process the plate out, you come up with a developer, which brings the image out. then once you put that plate on the press, that image will pick up type. mr. jenner. when did mr. surrey bring you that copy with respect to the time when he brought the two slick magazine reproductions of president kennedy's profile and front views? mr. klause. i believe it was all at the same time. this was--the pictures were the only thing i even took out of the envelope at one time. the rest of it i did not even bother to look at. mr. jenner. who, if anybody, assisted you in printing up the handbills? mr. klause. nobody. mr. jenner. mrs. klause did not help you? mr. klause. she was in front of the shop. in fact, i do not even think she ever came back. mr. jenner. when you say shop are you talking now of your own shop in your home or the shop at lettercraft? mr. klause. lettercraft. mr. jenner. so the handbills were actually printed by you in the lettercraft printing co. shop? mr. klause. yes, sir; after hours. mr. jenner. after you had--how many did you print, if you recall? mr. klause. i would say, mr. jenner, approximately , -- , , , . mr. jenner. what did you do with them after you printed them? mr. klause. i put them in a box. in fact, i did not even wrap them. i just stuck them in a box. and i contacted mr. surrey the next day. mr. jenner. and now, give us your recollection as to when you made contact with mr. surrey--with particular reference to november , . mr. klause. i would say, sir; it was approximately or - / weeks before mr. kennedy was in dallas. mr. jenner. that would be the early part of november ? mr. klause. yes, sir; as close as i can remember right now. mr. jenner. did you deliver the , plus handbills personally to mr. surrey? mr. klause. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and where did that delivery take place? mr. klause. now, that i do remember. that was about blocks approximately from the shop. it was--from lettercraft. it was a little cafe there which we call the waffle shop. it is the pal's waffle shop. mr. jenner. did you make--i take it then you made arrangements with mr. surrey to meet him at pal's waffle shop, rather than he come to the lettercraft printing co. mr. klause. i called him and told him that they were ready, and he said, "where can i meet you?" and i was getting ready to go to lunch at the time anyway. i believe it was lunch or coffee. i said, "i'm getting ready to go out for coffee. i am going to go up about blocks up the street to the waffle shop." he said, "i'll meet you there, then." mr. jenner. did mrs. klause accompany you? mr. klause. no, sir; she was at work. mr. jenner. anybody accompany you? mr. klause. no, sir. mr. jenner. you met mr. surrey at the pal's waffle shop? mr. klause. yes, sir. mr. jenner. you delivered him all of the handbills you had printed up? mr. klause. yes, sir. mr. jenner. what color were those? mr. klause. the handbills were run on what we call assorted dodger stock--green and orange and blue and yellow. it is a cheap colored newspaper print is what it is. mr. jenner. from where did you obtain the assorted dodger stock? mr. klause. olmstead kirk paper co. mr. jenner. did you make it as an individual purchase or was that a purchase on behalf of the lettercraft printing co.? mr. klause. no; that was my own purchase. mr. jenner. you purchased that and paid for it in cash? mr. klause. yes, sir. mr. jenner. now, were you paid for this work you did for mr. surrey? mr. klause. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and what did he pay you? mr. klause. i think it was $ , mr. jenner. in fact, i am almost positive. mr. jenner. was it in cash? mr. klause. yes, sir. mr. jenner. when next did you see mr. surrey after you had delivered the handbills to him? mr. klause. i would say approximately or weeks after mr. kennedy was assassinated in dallas. mr. jenner. so i take it then you had no contact with mr. surrey of any kind or character from the day you delivered the , plus handbills to him in pal's waffle shop until some weeks after president kennedy's assassination on november , . mr. klause. yes, sir; that is correct. mr. jenner. that whole time span was a month to weeks? mr. klause. yes, sir; and then at that time i called mr. surrey myself personally. mr. jenner. why? mr. klause. like i said, i have two or three accounts, and i had one job that i could not run, it was a big job. a lot of printers will work with other printers in jobbing out work. i took this job and jobbed it out--mr. surrey jobbed it out to johnson, and let johnson run it. and i in turn paid bob for the job, when the people paid me, and i delivered the job, and i made a commission off of it. mr. jenner. on that occasion when you saw mr. surrey, did you have a conversation--did you have any conversation with him with respect to the dodger or handbill, commission exhibit no. ? mr. klause. yes, sir; i imagine there was. i cannot exactly say what it is now. but i imagine there was something said--because i was quite upset about it at the time. mr. jenner. the fbi interviewed you about this incident, did they not? mr. klause. the secret service did; yes, sir. mr. jenner. and when you were first interviewed, you did not disclose to the secret service the facts with respect to mr. surrey delivering this material to you and your having printed it for him, delivered it to him, and he paying you? mr. klause. no, sir; nothing at all. mr. jenner. what led you to do that, mr. klause? mr. klause. well, i started thinking about it, and then the folks were getting real upset about it, because i had put them in a jam, which it was my own fault. mr. jenner. when you say folks, you mean your mother and stepfather? mr. klause. yes, sir; and i mean i like to help friends as much as i can, and be good to people as much as i can. but people in my family are going to come closer than my friends are. mr. jenner. you finally decided to reveal the full facts respecting this handbill? mr. klause. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and you did so to the secret service? mr. klause. yes, sir. mr. jenner. did mr. surrey approach you at any time to suggest to you that you should not reveal the source of this handbill? mr. klause. no, sir; i talked to him--i believe it was probably a couple of days after the secret service was out. and i told him those people were wanting to know things--i mean doing their job, that they wanted to find something out. i said this is strictly out of my territory--i did not know what i was supposed to do. and he said, well, i could either get myself a lawyer or just not say anything at all. mr. jenner. did you ever tell him you made up your mind you were going to tell the full facts about this matter? mr. klause. no, sir; not really. i think in so many words he might have understood that i was. mr. jenner. did he ever make a remark to you, "well, that is the way the ball bounces." mr. klause. it sounds like--it seems to ring a bell, but i cannot place it. mr. jenner. was that not in fact said by him in connection with your telling him that you had reached the conclusion that you had to tell the full facts about this matter? mr. klause. yes, sir; i believe so. mr. jenner. does that refresh your recollection? mr. klause. the ball bounces--yes, sir--that rings a bell now. mr. jenner. up to november , , had you ever heard the name lee harvey oswald? mr. klause. no, sir. mr. jenner. had you ever seen anybody up to that day who purported to be or whom you were advised was lee harvey oswald? mr. klause. no, sir. mr. jenner. i show you garner exhibit no. . did you ever see that man prior to november , ? mr. klause. no, sir. the only time i seen this man was on television and in the paper. mr. jenner. you mean on or after november , ? mr. klause. yes, sir. mr. jenner. i hand you commission exhibit no. , and direct your attention to the center figure appearing on that photograph. did you ever see that man prior to november , ? mr. klause. no, sir. mr. jenner. did you have a conversation with mr. surrey as to the purpose for which the handbill was to be put? mr. klause. no, sir. mr. jenner. when you read this copy, did that not alarm you or upset you? it is rather provocative, is it not, and it has a title "wanted for treason." mr. klause. actually, mr. jenner, i did not even pay any attention to the copy at all. it was late at night at the time i ran it. i did not pay any attention to it at all--which i should have done, i admit now. but i did not. mr. jenner. you were running it at night because you were doing this on the side? mr. klause. yes, sir. mr. jenner. you do have some printing equipment in your own apartment or home? mr. klause. no, sir. not at my house; no, sir. mr. jenner. you used the equipment of the lettercraft printing co., did you? mr. klause. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and you did this at night because you were doing it on the side with the lettercraft printing co. equipment? mr. klause. yes, sir. mr. jenner. did you advise your mother or your stepfather you were doing this? mr. klause. now, let me explain this to you. when they opened the shop up i started to work for approximately $ a week, and what few accounts i had, i turned over to the shop, and there was a couple of little accounts, like friends of mine that i ran around with, rode motorcycles with and things like that, that i kept for myself. and i mean that was my spending money. and they made the understanding--we made the understanding, when the shop was opened, that whatever little jobs like that that i had, i could do on the side at night--as long as it did not interfere with work during the day. mr. jenner. did you tell your mother or stepfather that you had done this work? mr. klause. no, sir. mr. jenner. did you tell them eventually? mr. klause. yes, sir. mr. jenner. they found out about it eventually? mr. klause. yes, sir. mr. jenner. you kept the money, did you? mr. klause. yes, sir. mr. jenner. do you know general edwin a. walker, resigned? mr. klause. no, sir. mr. jenner. have you ever heard of him? mr. klause. i have heard of him. mr. jenner. did you ever have any contact with him? mr. klause. no, sir. mr. jenner. were you aware that robert a. surrey was associated with general edwin a. walker at the time you made up these handbills? mr. klause. no, sir. mr. jenner. did you have any acquaintance with robert a. surrey other than as a fellow employee at johnson printing co.? mr. klause. no, sir. mr. jenner. and this incident about which you have testified? mr. klause. no, sir. senator cooper. may i ask a question there? did surrey ever tell you what he intended to do with these throwaways, or posters, or make any remarks about them at all? mr. klause. no, sir. he just asked me to do the job--said he had a customer that wanted it done. and that is all that was ever said about it. senator cooper. he did not tell you what the customer wanted to do with them? mr. klause. no, sir. mr. jenner. but at the very outset he asked you to do this on the side? mr. klause. yes, sir. senator cooper. mr. chairman, i think i am going to have to leave now. i have no further questions. (at this point, senator cooper left the hearing room.) mr. jenner. have you ever heard of the american eagle publishing co.? mr. klause. yes, sir. it takes a minute to ring a bell, but it rings a bell. mr. jenner. did you ever do any work for the american eagle publishing co.? mr. klause. no, sir. mr. jenner. that is a company with which mr. surrey is associated? mr. klause. yes, sir; i believe so. that is why i heard that mentioned. mr. jenner. how did you become acquainted with that fact? and when? mr. klause. i believe there was a discussion one day that sometimes on jobs--i think this was done, we talked about this at johnson at the time. mr. jenner. at the time you were employed at johnson? mr. klause. yes, sir. that jobs would come in that he would send through--might not be too much commission in it or something, or might not be a big job, where he would job through this place, which in turn then would job back through johnson. then he would get probably a markup plus a commission. how it is worked, i do not know, sir. mr. jenner. you were aware of the fact that mr. surrey and general walker were the two partners in american eagle publishing co.? mr. klause. no, sir. mr. jenner. but you knew he had some connection with the company--mr. surrey? mr. klause. yes, sir. like i said, he had mentioned it. mr. jenner. mr. surrey had mentioned it to you. did he tell you he was an officer of that company? mr. klause. well, as far as i knew, he was sole owner. mr. jenner. i see. mr. klause. it is what i thought was an assumed name, like myself. i do not know how the laws are here, but in texas when you open up in business, you have got to file an assumed name certificate--if it is under an assumed name or your name or whatever the name is, you have to file that business. mr. jenner. do you have an assumed name certificate for your private business? mr. klause. yes, sir. mr. jenner. what is it? mr. klause. klause printing. mr. jenner. were you not aware of the fact that mr. surrey had some connection with general edwin a. walker? mr. klause. no, sir. mr. jenner. at no time? mr. klause. no, sir. mr. jenner. did you ever see that tall yellow covered book published almost like a pamphlet, published by the american eagle publishing co., which contained reprints of various news stories of the assassination? mr. klause. yes, sir; this might be hard to believe. i saw the book. in fact, i think i have a copy of it. but to this day, i have yet to crack the cover on it. i have never even opened it. mr. jenner. what i want to question you about--did you look at the back of the book, the back cover of the book? mr. klause. no, sir; i noticed the front, and put it in the car. i carried it in the car for about a week, with a bunch of my scratch pads i hand out to my customers. and one night i went home to unload the car, and i unloaded everything out of the car and put it in the house. and since then i never looked at it. mr. jenner. you never noticed that surrey appears on the backside of the back cover as the president of the american eagle publishing co. mr. klause. no, sir. mr. jenner. have you ever heard of the carousel club in dallas? mr. klause. yes, sir; i have heard of it. mr. jenner. do you know where it is located? mr. klause. all i can tell you, sir, it is downtown. i have never been there. mr. jenner. you have never been there? mr. klause. no, sir. mr. jenner. did you ever meet jack ruby? mr. klause. no, sir. mr. jenner. did you ever see jack ruby prior to the th of november ? mr. klause. no, sir; i have never seen him and have never met him. mr. jenner. you've never seen him before or since or on that day? mr. klause. no, sir. mr. jenner. did you ever have any business with him of any kind or character? mr. klause. no, sir; as soon as he was put in jail, from what i understand, the biggest part of his property went up for sale, and the people--some people that bought some of his property, or bought his business, called on us to do a job. mr. jenner. this was after the assassination? mr. klause. yes, sir; this was after--in fact, i imagine sometime after his trial. and i called on those people. we printed i think letterheads and envelopes, something like that, plus , circulars about open from until in the morning, and then the dance band who was there. in fact, they still owe the bill at the shop. in fact from what i understand, that place is closed up again now. mr. jenner. did lettercraft printing co. ever do any work for jack ruby, to your knowledge? mr. klause. no, sir. mr. jenner. did johnson printing co. ever do any work for jack ruby, to your knowledge? mr. klause. no, sir; not to my knowledge. and i can assure you that lettercraft didn't, because if it had, it would have crossed my desk. mr. jenner. were you generally aware of the jobs that went through johnson printing? mr. klause. that came to my press, yes sir. now, johnson--i don't know whether you know it--it is a pretty good sized shop. it is one of the biggest in dallas. in fact, you could put my whole shop in just one room over there. mr. jenner. when you talk about your shop you are talking about lettercraft? mr. klause. yes, sir; now, on the press that i was working on, nothing ever came in; no, sir. mr. jenner. i think that will be all. may i look at my notes, mr. chairman. mr. dulles. have you told us in detail all your conversations with mr. surrey, from the time that this particular job started until it was concluded? mr. klause. yes, sir. mr. dulles. did he tell you at all what his purpose was? mr. klause. no, sir; the only thing i mentioned--he said he had a customer that wanted it. mr. jenner. he did not identify the customer? mr. klause. no, sir. mr. dulles. but he indicated he was doing this for a customer? mr. klause. yes, sir. mr. dulles. do you recall whether at the time mr. surrey first spoke with you about this job, it was publicly known that president kennedy was to visit dallas? mr. klause. it might have been; but not to my knowledge, sir. mr. dulles. you did not know at that time that president kennedy was going to visit dallas? mr. klause. no, sir. mr. dulles. and i think you have testified that your first contact with mr. surrey about this was some weeks before the visit? mr. klause. yes, sir. mr. dulles. around the first of november that would be? mr. klause. yes, sir; now, it might have came out in the paper that mr. kennedy was coming to dallas, but we don't take the paper. and usually by the time we get home and feed the kids, we don't have time to read the paper anyway. we might watch the late movie on television. we don't keep up with the news, which we should, but we don't. and that is probably the way it got in without me knowing it. but i had no knowledge at all. mr. jenner. mrs. klause works, does she? mr. klause. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and you both get home about the same time do you? mr. klause. yes, sir--the biggest part of the time we do. mr. jenner. how many children do you have? mr. klause. we have three. mr. jenner. i exhibit to you another handbill which we will mark as commission exhibit no. . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. jenner. for the purpose of the record, this is entitled "wanted for murder," and it had a front view and profile of mr. khrushchev. it is signed "minutemen" in printing, with quotations. have you ever seen that document before or one like it? mr. klause. no, sir. mr. jenner. do you see any form of type there that is the kind of type that is reproduced in lettercraft printing? mr. klause. no, sir. mr. jenner. does that appear to be any type font or printing with which you became familiar at johnson printing co.? mr. klause. no, sir; actually from a printer's viewpoint--just looking at it from this angle here--that could be done off of a typewriter. that looks more like a typewriter than it does off a linotype machine. mr. jenner. and after its having been typed, then reproduced in the fashion in which commission exhibit no. was reproduced? mr. klause. yes, sir. mr. jenner. the mechanical processes you have described. you called it a blanket? mr. klause. plate. mr. jenner. make up a plate of the whole sheet--you photograph the sheet, then make a plate, and reproduce from the plate? mr. klause. yes, sir. now why i say it doesn't look like linotype--in linotype most of your columns or your paragraphs are butted up straight. in other words, you got straight edges on both sides. whereas on a typewriter you cannot flush. it takes somebody exceptionally skilled with a typewriter to flush the corners. these edges here are not flush. mr. jenner. you are talking about the right-hand margin? mr. klause. yes, sir; you see your left hand is flush. now on a linotype those on the right can be flushed. mr. jenner. now, directing your attention to commission exhibit no. , are the right-hand margins of that material flushed as you call it? mr. klause. these i would say were pretty close to being flush. it would be more of a linotype than this exhibit no. here. mr. jenner. that would lead you to believe, then, that the copy on commission exhibit no. was produced in the first instance on a linotype machine? mr. klause. linotype or---- mr. jenner. a ludlow? mr. klause. possibly. i was getting ready to varitype. varitype would come up close to flushing it. mr. jenner. but commission exhibit no. does not stimulate your recollection in any respect whatsoever? mr. klause. no, sir. mr. jenner. you never heard about that handbill? mr. klause. no, sir. mr. jenner. wholly apart from never having seen it? mr. klause. no, sir. mr. jenner. my handing it to you a moment ago was the first time you ever knew of the existence of a handbill of that type? mr. klause. yes, sir. mr. jenner. you never heard any discussion of it heretofore? mr. klause. no, sir. mr. jenner. mr. chairman, i have covered all of the details with mr. klause. i have no further questions of him. mr. dulles. i have no more questions. we thank you very much, mr. klause, for coming. we appreciate your testimony. mr. klause. i am glad i can do what i can do. i would like to get this straightened out. i feel real guilty about it. mr. jenner. is there anything you would like to add, mr. klause? mr. klause. no, sir; except that it is a mess, and that i am just a poor country boy, i guess you would say, that got caught up in the mess, and i strictly learned my lesson on this. i have hurt a bunch of people, especially my folks, and i have caused a lot of trouble. i just feel real bad about it. that is all. if i had taken time to have read the thing actually i don't think i would ever have done it. but like i said, it was late at night, and i was in a hurry, and i wanted to get it on and off. mr. jenner. and you needed the money. mr. klause. and i needed the money; yes, sir. mr. dulles. what did you net on this? mr. klause. $ . actually, i think the stock was somewhere around $ . i paid for the stock, and he in turn paid for the stock. mr. dulles. $ was your profit on this? mr. klause. yes, sir. mr. jenner. $ was the full profit to you? mr. klause. yes, sir. mr. dulles. have you anything further, mr. jenner? mr. jenner. no; i have not. mr. dulles. the commission will stand adjourned. (whereupon, at : p.m., the president's commission recessed.) _thursday, july , _ testimony of mark lane resumed the president's commission met at p.m., on july , , at maryland avenue ne., washington, d.c. present were: chief justice earl warren, chairman; and representative gerald r. ford, member. also present were j. lee rankin, general counsel; and norman redlich, assistant counsel. the chairman. the commission will be in order. mr. lane, the last time you were here, we excused you as a witness. you should be sworn again as a witness. do you solemnly swear that the testimony you shall give before this commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. lane. i do. the chairman. you may be seated, please. mr. rankin will ask you some questions that were not entirely cleared up when you were here last time. would you proceed? mr. rankin. mr. lane, you testified before the commission the last time on march , did you? mr. lane. yes; i did. mr. rankin. and you recall your testimony at that time? mr. lane. well, it was rather long testimony. i recall portions of it; yes, sir. mr. rankin. yes. do you recall that you were asked about an interview with helen markham? mr. lane. i recall testifying to that; yes. i don't know if i was asked about it specifically, but i do recall testifying in reference to that interview. mr. rankin. if you would care to refer to your testimony at any time, you are free to do so. mr. lane. thank you. mr. rankin. do you have any writing from mrs. markham in connection with the interview that you referred to in your testimony? mr. lane. any document which mrs. markham wrote? is that the question? mr. rankin. either that or anything that she signed which purports to be her statement or affidavit or other recording. mr. lane. i have nothing that she signed or that she wrote. mr. rankin. do you have anything that you made up yourself from any interview with her? mr. lane. yes; i do. mr. rankin. do you have that with you? mr. lane. no; i do not. mr. rankin. will you describe that document? is it a paper or a tape recording, or what form does it have? mr. lane. it is a tape recording and a transcript of the tape recording in writing. mr. rankin. was the tape recording made by you? mr. lane. i think we are now moving into an area where i would prefer not to answer questions, quite frankly. i have given to the commission the results of my investigation, and i think that the commission are aware of the fact that i have an attorney-client relationship existing. the commission is now asking for working papers of an attorney. the supreme court has been quite plain, i think, on the question of the sanctity of working documents of attorneys. and i think, therefore, that the questions are no longer in a proper area. i might also indicate to the commission that when i was retained by marguerite oswald to represent the interests of her son before this commission, and the commission declined to permit me to so represent lee oswald, it made it impossible for me to conduct the kind of cross-examination before this commission of witnesses that i would have ordinarily conducted, and that entire conversation would have been in the presence of the commission, obviously, had i been permitted to function as counsel for my client. mr. rankin. will you describe to the commission the attorney and client relationship that you claim to exist? mr. lane. yes. i should think the commission would be well aware of that since i wrote to the commission on the very day that i was retained and sent, as i recall, an affidavit from my client, detailing the purpose, the purpose of my being retained. i think that was during the very early days of this year. mr. rankin. who was the client? mr. lane. marguerite oswald retained me to conduct an investigation in reference to the charges that were made against her son, then deceased, and to represent his interests before this commission. mr. rankin. and do you claim that that attorney-client relationship is one that exists now? mr. lane. it does exist at the present time in relationship to a matter peripheral to this investigation. it certainly did exist at the time of my discussion with mrs. markham, and my discussion with mrs. markham took place solely because of the existence of that relationship and to further that relationship. mr. rankin. will you state what the peripheral matter is that you referred to? mr. lane. it is the matter that mrs. oswald called you and spoke with you on the telephone about yesterday, sir. mr. rankin. what is that? mr. lane. it is in reference to a matter regarding the son of mrs. markham. mr. rankin. will you tell whatever else there is in regard to that? mr. lane. mrs. oswald has specifically requested that--in fact, has specifically directed me not to discuss that matter publicly--inasmuch as you have that information--because she talked with me only after she spoke with you, mr. rankin. and when she did speak with me, she told me what she had told you precisely early in the day she had told me. i think that the commission does have that information. mr. rankin. are you refusing to disclose it, then? mr. lane. i have a specific direction from mrs. oswald, who retained me in this peripheral matter just yesterday, not to discuss this matter publicly, sir. she is presently herself involved in investigating this matter, and told me specifically that any publicity in reference to this matter would be harmful to her investigation. i would otherwise be very happy to discuss the matter with you, as i have discussed everything else quite publicly. mr. rankin. and that is your reason for not disclosing it at this time? mr. lane. yes; coupled with the fact that the commission has this information, because i assume that mrs. oswald did speak with you yesterday. she told me that she did, and she gave you all the information she had in this regard. i believe she gave you more information than she gave to me, as a matter of fact, judging from what she said to me. mr. rankin. do you claim to be acting for mrs. oswald on any other matter than that in connection with her son? that is helen markham's son? mr. lane. at the present time? mr. rankin. at the present time. mr. lane. no; i am not. mr. rankin. when did that relationship terminate? mr. lane. i don't recall the exact date, but it was sometime after my testimony here, which was, i believe, on the th of march of this year. mr. rankin. can you fix it more precisely? mr. lane. i believe it was within weeks after that date. i did not bring with me the letter that i wrote to mrs. oswald explaining that i could not function before the commission as counsel because the commission would not permit me to function as counsel, and that i agreed to serve on a citizen's committee which would conduct an independent inquiry. and, therefore, since it seemed that there was nothing further i could do on behalf of the original purpose of our retainer, that we should probably conclude our professional relationship as of that time had ended. i believe that is the substance of the letter that i sent to mrs. oswald. and that is within weeks of march . representative ford. mr. rankin, may i raise a question about the language which mr. lane uses to the effect that the commission declined to permit mr. lane to represent mrs. oswald? i think the record before the commission on this matter will speak for itself. i think to have the record clear, we ought to have that part of the commission proceedings inserted in the record at this point. mr. lane. i would like to correct a mistake that you made, congressman. i did not say that i was not permitted to serve as counsel for mrs. oswald before the commission. i said, i thought quite precisely, that i had not been permitted by the commission to serve as counsel to represent the interests of lee harvey oswald at the request of his mother, marguerite oswald. representative ford. i think we should let the record speak for itself at the time that this matter was raised before the commission. the chairman. that portion of the record may be incorporated in this record at this particular time. mr. lane. i would just like to conclude on this note. i hope the commission will give consideration to my request, which the commission has answered, but which again i would like at this time to renew. that is, that i be permitted, at the request of mrs. oswald, the mother of the accused, defendant, really, before this commission's hearing, to represent his interests here, to have access to the material which you have access to, and the right to present witnesses. it is not usual for an attorney representing a party to be given an opportunity to testify, which is quite unusual--but rather to be given the opportunity to present witnesses and to cross-examine them. it has generally been my role in criminal cases. never before have i testified in behalf of a client. if it is the commissioners' position that this is not a trial in any respect, and therefore oswald is not entitled to counsel, that is the position with which i would like to respectfully offer a dissent. the fact that oswald is not going to have a real trial flows only from his death, and he is not responsible with that having taken place. every right belonging to an american citizen charged with a crime was taken from him up to and including his life. i think now that that episode is completed, hopefully never to reappear ever again in our history, or anything close to it--i think it would be proper to permit him to have counsel before the commission, counsel who can function on his behalf in terms of cross-examining evidence and presenting witnesses. if it is the commission's position now that he is entitled to counsel, and the commission will appoint counsel, then i ask the commission to consider that the constitutional right to counsel involves the right to counsel of one's choice, or in the event of the death of a party, to counsel of the choice of the surviving members of the family. if marina oswald, the widow, sought to have counsel represent her husband i would think--here--i would think that would cause a conflict and a problem, if the widow and also the mother made the same request. but as i understand it no request has been made by the widow, who has indicated to the press that she believes her husband is guilty, and through her former business agent, mr. martin, who i am told was secured for her by the secret service as a business agent, she indicated that even a trial which might prove he was innocent, she would still be sure he was guilty, and has indicated since that time no desire to my knowledge to secure counsel for her husband, her late husband, before the commission. i think, then, the mother would, in almost any jurisdiction, be the next person to make a decision in this area, and the mother has made a decision, as you know. she has retained me to represent the rights and interests of her son. i think under those circumstances it would be proper for the commission to permit me to participate. this, of course, is not a jury trial. with all due respect to the integrity and background of each of the members of the commission, i suggest that it is not the function of the trying body to appoint counsel, or the jury to appoint counsel, but in our society it is just the reverse; it is the function of defense counsel to participate in determining who the jury should be. many criminal lawyers, very noted counsel, would probably seek to excuse certain--and again no disrespect at all is meant to the background of members of this commission--but defense counsel generally seeks to excuse as jurors those who are in any way associated with the government in a criminal case. and here we have the government appointing the jury, and then the jury picking counsel, who also is government connected at this time. i in no way wish to raise the question of the integrity of any of the members of the commission or counsel or anyone else, or their ability. but that truism about equality has some meaning in terms of impartiality--everyone is impartial to some people, and more impartial to other people. and counsel, in order to function, i believe, must be totally independent and totally committed to the responsibility of representing his client. but above all, he must be secured by someone who has the ability to speak for the deceased, in this case his mother and his wife. and under those circumstances, i renew my request that i be permitted to, at the request of lee oswald's mother, who survives him--to function before this commission as counsel on his behalf. the chairman. mr. lane, i must advise you that the commission, as you already know, has considered your request and has denied it. it does not consider you as the attorney for lee oswald. now, this is not for any discussion. we are not going to argue it. you have had your say, and i will just answer. lee oswald left a widow. she is his legal representative. she is represented by counsel. this commission is cooperating with her in any way she may request. if anyone else wants to present any evidence to the commission, they may do so. but it is the view and the wish--the will of the commission--that no one else shall be entitled to participate in the work and the deliberations of the commission. we asked you to come here today because we understood that you did have evidence. we are happy to receive it. we want every bit of evidence that you have. you may present anything that you wish to us. but you are not to be a participant in the work of the commission. i assume you have some questions you would like to ask mr. lane, mr. rankin? mr. lane. well, then i ask also, mr. chief justice, at this point the letters, exchange of letters between mr. rankin and myself, where i made the request to appear as counsel for the interests of lee harvey oswald, and where counsel for this commission said that, oswald was not entitled to counsel, or that i could not represent him---- the chairman. let the record speak for itself in that respect, too. the exchange of letters will be in the record. [see commission exhibit no. .] mr. lane. thank you, sir. mr. rankin. now, mr. lane, regarding this tape recording of helen markham, and your interview with her, will you tell the commission when you made this? mr. lane. i had a conversation with mrs. markham on the d day of march of this year. mr. rankin. where was that? mr. lane. i have given the commission the results of that investigation to the best of my ability. i think that, again, mr. rankin, your question delves into the functioning of an attorney on behalf of a client, and, therefore, is not proper, and, therefore, i decline to answer it. mr. rankin. will you tell the commission when you made the tape recording that you referred to? mr. lane. i just answered that question, mr. rankin. mr. rankin. and do you refuse to tell, then, anything about that interview with helen markham, how you recorded it? mr. lane. i beg your pardon? mr. rankin. and how you recorded it? mr. lane. i should think that since this commission has been appointed by the president of the united states to secure all of the information regarding the assassination of president kennedy and other matters peripheral to that, the questions asked of me should be related to information which can be of assistance to the commission, and should not be the kind of questions, mr. rankin, that you have put to me. i am happy to tell you every bit of information that i have been able to secure as a private citizen in trying to discover what took place on november and the days that followed november , but i think that the very questions that you are putting to me indicates that you are not interested solely in securing that information, but in placing me, mr. rankin, in a position which is not a good one. and i see this quite frankly as part of many things that have happened to me since november --not november , but since i expressed some interest in this case. mr. rankin. mr. lane, could you tell us whether there was anyone else present at this interview with helen markham that you recorded? mr. lane. i don't believe that i said i recorded it. i believe i said it was recorded. mr. rankin. was it recorded by someone else? mr. lane. i decline to answer any questions, because the questions you are asking clearly are not for the purpose for which this commission has been established. and i tell you that i am amazed, quite frankly, mr. rankin, that the kind of harassment to which i have been subjected since i became involved in this case continues here in this room--i am amazed by that. as you know, and i don't know if this has been placed on the record by the commission--in the letter that i wrote to you on may , , i told you that i had been accosted by two agents of the federal bureau of investigation in front of my own house, and ordered to give to them, by them--their names being william e. folkner, his serial number being , and john p. dimarchi, his serial number being --and ordered to give to those gentlemen documents in my possession, relating to my testimony before this commission. mr. rankin. did you do that? mr. lane. i did not give them those documents; no. mr. rankin. why not? mr. lane. does your tone and your question indicate you think i should have given those documents to agents of the fbi? mr. rankin. i would like to have you answer the question, if you would. mr. lane. you decline to answer my question? mr. rankin. yes; i am examining you. mr. lane. of course, i did not give them any documents in my possession. when i deal with any agencies of the government, i expect that they will write to me, and if they wish to secure information from me they will do that in a dignified manner. i am an attorney with an office in new york. i don't expect to be accosted in front of my house by agents of the police, federal, state, or local authorities. those are the actions not of a democratic society, but of a police state, and i decline to believe for one moment that we live in a society where that behavior is going to be countenanced by any members of this commission or by counsel to this commission. mr. rankin. did you offer to furnish them copies if they would write to you in the manner you suggested? mr. lane. i suggested to those two agents that someone in the office of the federal bureau of investigation might write to me and that i would respond courteously, and make available whatever information i could. i told them, also, as i told you, since i wrote a letter to you covering this entire matter on may th--i told them also that i had testified fully before this commission. if they wanted to secure any information i had, they might contact the commission. they indicated they were not interested in the warren commission. mr. rankin. now, to return to the tape recording---- mr. lane. i would like to add one more point, if i may. it is a matter which i discussed with you on the telephone days ago. mr. rankin. is that in regard to the tape recording? mr. lane. no; it is not. mr. rankin. can we confine ourselves to that for a bit, until we complete that. can you tell us who else was present at the time of this tape recording of helen markham that you describe? mr. lane. i would like to make this quite clear to you, mr. rankin. i am not going to discuss any working papers in my possession. those papers came into my possession as a result of an attorney-client relationship. the supreme court has written decisions regarding the sanctity of those documents. i think it is improper of you to ask questions which delve into relationship of that nature. and i think you know that the questions you are asking are improper. mr. rankin. and if other people were present at the time of any such matters and disclosures, does that make any difference under the law, do you think? mr. lane. present where? mr. rankin. at the time of the tape recording and the interview. that is what i am asking you. mr. lane. no one else was present. mr. rankin. and who did the tape recording? mr. lane. again you are delving into an area which is an improper one for you to delve into. representative ford. did you know about the tape recording being made? mr. lane. i beg your pardon? representative ford. did you know about the tape recording being made? mr. lane. i decline to answer that question. am i a defendant before this commission, or is the commission trying to find out who assassinated the president? representative ford. we are trying to find out information about a witness before this commission---- mr. lane. well, then, call the witness before the commission and ask the witness questions. and if the commission--if the witness has testified contrary to what i say the witness has said, then i would suggest you do what i invited the commission to do when this matter arose. submit my testimony and mrs. markham's testimony to the u.s. attorney's office, and bring an action against both of us for perjury. and then at that trial i will present documents in my possession, and we will see who is convicted. representative ford. do you believe mrs. markham is an important witness in this overall matter? mr. lane. i would think so. representative ford. i am sure you know what she has told you. mr. lane. i know what she has told me, that is correct. representative ford. if there is any difference between what she told you and told this commission, is that important? mr. lane. of course, it is important. and if there was someone representing the interests of oswald before this commission, there could be cross-examination, you sitting as judges could then base your decision upon the cross-examination. but you have decided instead to sit as judges and jurors and defense attorneys and prosecuting attorneys, and you are faced with a dilemma. i cannot solve that dilemma for you. representative ford. in order for us to evaluate the testimony she has given us and what you allege she has given you, we must see the information which you have at your disposal. mr. lane. i have told you precisely under oath what mrs. markham has said to me. mr. rankin. are you unwilling to verify that with the tape recording that you claim to have? mr. lane. i am unable to verify that because of an existing attorney-client relationship, and you know that it would be improper and unethical for me to give the answers to the questions which you are asking. and that is why i am amazed that you persist in asking questions which you know are improper and which would be unethical for me to answer. mr. rankin. and where was this tape recording made? mr. lane. you have my answer to questions about that already, mr. rankin. mr. rankin. did you, yourself, have any conversation with helen markham at anytime? mr. lane. yes; i testified to that on march , and again today. representative ford. is this tape recording of that conversation? mr. lane. precisely. mr. rankin. can you tell us where the tape recording was made? mr. lane. i can tell you, but i will not tell you. mr. rankin. do you have any other reasons for not disclosing this information to the commission except your statement about the attorney and client relationship that you describe? mr. lane. and the sanctity of working documents of an attorney. i have no other reason whatsoever. mr. rankin. mr. lane, the commission has asked you a number of times to disclose to it the name of the informant that you said told you about having seen certain persons in the carousel club. are you ready to disclose the name of that informant now? mr. lane. i am ready, but as i told you when i gave you that information at the outset, i gave my word of honor to that person that i would not disclose his name unless he gave me permission to. i have gone to dallas on two separate occasions to try to secure that permission. i have not been able to secure that permission. nothing would make me happier than giving you the name of that person; but i have given my word of honor and, therefore, i am unable to give you that name. mr. rankin. do you claim any attorney and client relationship with regard to the name of that informant? mr. lane. i think there clearly exists an attorney-client relationship, but that is not the motivating factor in my telling you that i will not disclose the name. mr. rankin. is that the basis for your refusal to disclose the name? mr. lane. obviously if i say yes, you cannot pursue this, but i must tell you honestly that is not the reason. mr. rankin. then i ask you to disclose the name of the informant. mr. lane. i cannot. i have given my word to that person that i would not disclose his name. mr. rankin. you know that is no legal justification, do you not? mr. lane. i know that is true. there is no legal justification. i know that i am not here under subpena. i know that you wrote to me while i was in europe, although you have the power of subpena--you do not have the power to subpena me while i was in europe. i know the commission will complete its work very likely within the next weeks. i could have easily remained in europe until the commission had completed its work. i knew you were calling me here today in reference to that specific matter because you said so in your letter to me. so i have come here voluntarily to cooperate with the commission to the very best of my ability, and not to rely upon any legal superstructure to protect my answers. i told this commission at the outset that i had given my word to this person, and i would not reveal his name. the commission led me to believe at that time that it would honor that understanding, and the record, i think, so reveals that. if the commission is prepared---- mr. rankin. you base that upon the record at that time? you base your claim that the commission indicated that it would honor any such understanding on the record that was made on march , do you? mr. lane. yes; i think there is language there which indicates this. i was not pressed at that time. we discussed the matter at that time. if the commission is at this point about to reverse its position, despite an indication that it would honor that understanding, i am myself not ready to break my honor, my commitment to that individual. i have not done that ever in the past, and i will not do that now. mr. rankin. the commission has a number of times asked you by correspondence to disclose the name of that informant, and it now asks you in this proceeding, while you are under oath, to make that disclosure. mr. lane. i will not do so, mr. rankin. mr. rankin. do you realize that the information you gave in closed session could have an unfavorable effect upon your country's interests in connection with this assassination and your failure to disclose the name of your informant would do further injury? mr. lane. mr. rankin. i am astonished to hear that statement from you. there are million americans in this country. i am perhaps the only one who is a private citizen who has taken off the last months to devote all of his efforts to securing whatever information can be found, and to making that known to this commission, and publicly to the people of this country at great personal cost in terms of the harassment that i have suffered, in terms of the terrible financial losses that i have suffered. and to sit here today, after months of this work, which i have given all to this commission, voluntarily, and again have come here again today voluntarily to give you this information, and to hear you say that i am not cooperating with the commission, and i am going to do harm to the country by not making information available to you astonishes me. you have hundreds of agents of the fbi running all over the dallas area--agents of the secret service, dallas policemen. are you telling me that in one trip to dallas where i spent something like days, i uncovered information which the whole police force of this nation has not yet in months been able to secure? i cannot believe that is a valid assessment of this situation. i cannot, mr. rankin. the chairman. mr. lane, may i say to you that until you give us the corroboration that you say you have, namely, that someone told you that that was a fact, we have every reason to doubt the truthfulness of what you have heretofore told us. and your refusal to answer at this time lends further strength to that belief. if you can tell us, and if you will tell us, who gave you that information, so that we may test their veracity, then you have performed a service to this commission. but until you do, you have done nothing but handicap us. mr. lane. i have handicapped you by working for months and making all of the information which i have had available to you? i understand very fully your position, mr. chief justice. mr. rankin. mr. lane, what did you come down to tell us or inform the commission about? you say you came here of your own volition in order to help us, and to give us information. now, what information in light of the fact that i wrote you and asked you for two specific things--whatever information you had in any recorded form concerning your interview with helen markham, and secondly, the name of the informant, neither of which you are willing to disclose or have said anything to help the commission on. mr. lane. i came here at your request that i interrupt my trip in europe to come back and testify before you. and i have done that. the chairman. by denying--by refusing to answer either question. mr. lane. i think that--well. i have given you the reasons why i cannot answer the question. with reference to mrs. markham, i should tell you this, that i am hopeful that in the very near future i will be able to make that document available to you by securing permission from my client. but she has informed me at the present time that she is herself involved in securing some information relative to this whole matter, which you are familiar with, mr. rankin, and that she wishes there to be no discussion at all at this point about this matter. frankly, quite frankly, matters which have been given to this commission in utmost confidence have appeared in the daily newspapers, and one cannot feel with great security that giving information to this commission, even at secret hearings, means that the information will not be broadcast, and this is the problem which confronts us at the present time. the chairman. you know, do you not, that you and other witnesses have been free to discuss their testimony before the commission with the public, and you, yourself, have done that, and that is one of the reasons that things that were said before the commission have been divulged. you, yourself, have discussed fully your testimony before the press and the radio and the television. mr. lane. yes; i have. the chairman. other witnesses have done the same thing. no witness is under compulsion to keep his testimony secret. naturally, some things would come out. mr. lane. well, it seems to me that when the transcript of my--the transcript of my testimony was sent to me, dealing with the portion in executive session, every page had been marked "top secret." in fact, it bore a legend across it saying that my testimony, which consisted almost solely at the outset of my request that the hearings be open to the public, was in fact related to the national defense of the united states and it was a violation of the espionage laws for me to discuss those matters publicly. the chairman. well, mr. lane, you know that you came right down from your testimony, and i think in this very room, or at least on this floor of this same building, discussed your testimony with the press and the radio and the television. mr. lane. oh, i most certainly did. my testimony was open to the public. my testimony was unlike the rest of the testimony before the commission. the chairman. well, now, that is your judgment. every witness knows that he is under no compulsion to keep his testimony secret. they have not done it. and many of them have come down here after their testimony upstairs and have appeared on radio and television and have discussed matters with the press. mr. lane. yes; i know that that may very well be so, mr. chief justice. i was only making reference to matters such as the diary which has been marked top secret, which has been published, and the press conferences in which members of the commission reported to the press the testimony before them. mr. rankin. mr. lane, when i wrote you, do you recall that i offered to have the commission pay your expenses to come back from europe in order to testify before the commission at this time? mr. lane. yes; you did. mr. rankin. are you asking that you be paid those expenses? mr. lane. i would expect that since you made that offer that is a commitment you should keep. i would have remained in europe; yes. mr. rankin. and you did not tell me in any correspondence that you were going to take the position that you could not make this disclosure because of an attorney-client relationship, and that you were not going to give us any information about the informant at this time? mr. lane. mr. rankin---- mr. rankin. did you? mr. lane. yes; of course i told you that. i told you that on march , and i have told you that in every letter which you have written to me on these questions. i cannot understand how you can pretend to be surprised or plead surprise at this point based upon my position before the commission which today, in july, is consistently the same position i took in march, and consistently the same position i took in the intervening months when i wrote to you, we exchanged correspondence, in relationship to my position. mr. rankin. and you did not in answer to my letter, when i offered to pay your expenses, say that the only thing you could testify to was that there was an attorney-client relationship and you would not produce any of the records in regard to helen markham because of that, or you did not say that you would not give us the name of the informant because you had refused to disclose it, in answer to my letter, offering to pay your expenses. you said nothing about anything of that kind, did you? mr. lane. i never received your letter. you wrote it to my new york address. i was in europe traveling at the time. i received a phone call from my office days ago stating that you had asked that i return to the united states to testify, and i immediately booked passage the next morning, which was the first plane, in order to return, and to be here before july , which was what your letter said. when i came back, i received a phone call from you indicating that i was not needed yesterday, but that today at o'clock would be the appropriate time, and so i came here today. and i am willing to---- mr. rankin. is that your answer? mr. lane. yes; of course, it is my answer. i will give you all of the information in my possession in reference to everything i have been able to discover in order to assist this commission. but what you are asking at this point are sources. you are not asking for information. you are asking for sources. and you know that it is improper to ask for those sources. the chairman. even where there is no relationship of attorney and client? mr. lane. it is not improper because there is a relationship in that case. it is improper because i gave that testimony to you voluntarily on march , explaining to the members of this commission that i had given my word of honor to this person not to disclose his name. mr. rankin. do you have anything else that you wish to disclose in addition to such disclosures as you now have made to the commission in regard to the assassination of president kennedy? mr. lane. there are three additional matters which have come to my attention, which i am not at this point able to disclose because an investigation is still being conducted in dallas. but by monday, this coming monday, i will be in a position to make that information available to you. in addition to that---- mr. rankin. will this be in written form, signed statements and affidavits, or what will you have for this? mr. lane. i don't understand your question, mr. rankin. mr. rankin. will you have it in any kind of a written form; the additional testimony or evidence that you refer to? mr. lane. i cannot tell you that until monday. in addition to that, as i told you when we spoke on the phone days ago, and you suggested that i raise this matter before the commission, i am deeply concerned about the fact that since i have become involved in this matter, and since i testified before this commission, the u.s. department of immigration has placed my name in their immigration book, on the proscribed list, and that when i returned to this country, in response to your invitation to come here and testify before this commission, i was halted by the immigration authorities because my name appeared in that proscribed list. mr. rankin. and i told you at that time on the telephone, didn't i, that the commission had nothing to do with that? is that right? mr. lane. you did tell me that, and i ask you if you would be good enough to find out, since i did not accuse the commission of having my name listed there, of course--to find out if my name was listed in relationship to the inquiry which i have conducted, and the testimony that i have given to this commission. the chairman. were you prevented from entering the united states? mr. lane. no; i am here now, mr. chief justice, but i was stopped. the chairman. how long were you detained? were you detained? mr. lane. oh, just for a few minutes. the chairman. how many minutes? mr. lane. oh, perhaps . my objection is not to the period of time. the chairman. what was the question asked of you? mr. lane. just to wait. mr. rankin. wasn't there something else asked of you? mr. lane. well, perhaps i should, then, tell you what happened. mr. rankin. all right. you better answer that question of the chief justice. the chairman. that is a part of my question. i asked you: what did they say to you? mr. lane. well, there were three different persons. the first person was at the desk, whose name i do not recall, but as an immigration inspector said, "kindly wait," and he returned within minutes and gave me back my passport and said, "you can pass through now." so not a single question was asked of me by the immigration inspector who discovered that my name was in the proscribed book. i, however, asked him if he could tell me why my name was in the book, and he said that it was confidential material which he could not reveal to me, and i asked him if he would be good enough to tell me the name of his superior officer so that i might discuss the matter with him. he referred me to mr. j. j. daley, also an immigration inspector, and mr. daley asked me if perhaps i had gone to cuba, and i said to him i had never been to cuba; i had only been out of the country where a passport was required twice in my life, both within the last months. the only time prior to then i had left the country was when i was a soldier in the u.s. army, and i was sent to europe--not to cuba at that time. he said, "well, then, i can't understand it." and i asked if i could see his superior officer. and he referred me to w. t. mcarnity, who was the officer in charge. he told me that perhaps there was just some mistake made, but could give me no further information. he referred me to mr. espardy, who is the district director, i believe, of the immigration department, and mr. espardy said merely, "i am not going to tell you a thing." that is where the entire matter rested, and where it rests now. mr. rankin. mr. lane, when you asked your informant if you could disclose the information that we have asked you about--and we have asked you the name of the informer--did you tell him that the commission had indicated to you that his name would not be publicly revealed if he would allow you to disclose it to the commission? mr. lane. i most certainly did. mr. rankin. and what was his response? mr. lane. he wondered whether that meant his name might not be revealed anywhere--if not by the members of the commission, perhaps somehow it might be revealed. mr. rankin. is that what he said? mr. lane. that is precisely what he said. representative ford. when did he tell you that? mr. lane. when i spoke with him; i think it was during march or april of this year, after i testified before the commission. representative ford. have you made any further inquiry in that regard? mr. lane. have i? representative ford. yes. mr. lane. i spoke with him one more time. representative ford. since your return from europe? mr. lane. no; i just arrived days ago. mr. rankin. when was the last time you spoke to him about disclosing his name? mr. lane. i would think it was during april of this year. mr. rankin. when in april? mr. lane. i don't recall the exact date. when i was last in dallas. mr. rankin. can you give us a closer approximation than that? mr. lane. i really cannot. i believe it was in april; perhaps toward the middle of april, but i am not certain. representative ford. was it by telephone? mr. lane. no; i saw him in person. i went down to see him. representative ford. you saw him in dallas? mr. lane. yes; well, near dallas. mr. rankin. do you consider, mr. lane, that you have cooperated with the commission as much as you can in regard to both of these matters, helen markham and this informant? mr. lane. yes; i think there is no question but that i have. frankly, when i returned to the country, i had thought that it would be not difficult for me to make available to you all the documents regarding mrs. markham. i had planned to do that. (at this point, representative ford withdrew from the hearing room.) mr. lane. i felt that i would be able to be released from the attorney-client stricture so that i could do that. it was not until after i returned that i received a phone call from mrs. oswald, after she called you, related this new development in relationship to the markhams, which has at this point handicapped my being able to secure permission to release that information. i had intended to do that. i am hopeful that in the next few days it will be possible to give you that information, as i said earlier. the chairman. mr. lane, you told us what your attorney relationship was, but, really, i did not understand it very clearly. will you tell us what your present attorney relationship is that causes you to rely upon it in refusing to tell us about this recording that was made at the time of the conversation between you and helen markham? mr. lane. i don't have a present attorney-client relationship in relation to that particular matter. i, at that time, had been retained by marguerite oswald to investigate the charges against her son and peripheral matters, and, in conformity and in furtherance of that retainer, i conducted an interview with mrs. markham. the chairman. and---- mr. lane. and that is one of the working documents in my possession. the chairman. how does that become a peripheral matter--the conversation that you had with mrs. markham? what does that have to do with mrs. oswald? mr. lane. i secured that information on behalf of an attorney-client relationship when i was serving my client, mrs. oswald. the chairman. but, mr. lane, you at that very time, when you claimed to be, and when you were, the attorney for mrs. oswald, you did come here and testify concerning that conversation with mrs. markham. mr. lane. yes. the chairman. now, if you testified concerning it then, why can't you now tell us all the circumstances surrounding that? why is your privilege any different now than it was then? mr. lane. i explained to mrs. oswald that i had been called to testify before the commission as a witness, and that the information which i had secured i had secured on her behalf, and discussed with her what it is i was going to tell the commission, and she agreed and gave me permission to testify before the commission as i did. the chairman. and since that time she instructed you not to testify? mr. lane. since that time, just actually days ago--or perhaps it was yesterday--she instructed me not to discuss the entire markham situation at all, quite specifically, and quite strongly, and insistently, over my objection. mr. rankin. is it your position, then, that you have a right to disclose part of the information about the helen markham matter to the commission and you don't have a duty to disclose all of it? mr. lane. i think that when one has a client, one has the right, if one secures the permission of the client, to release the results of investigation while retaining the sanctity of working documents belonging to an attorney; yes. i think there is a clear distinction. mr. rankin. it is your contention you can hold back part of it so that the commission then is not able to verify what you do tell, the part you do tell? mr. lane. well, of course---- mr. rankin. is that your position? mr. lane. no, and i haven't said anything, i think, even comparable to that. i said one can testify if one has permission of the client in terms of the result of an investigation conducted by a client. mr. rankin. your conclusion about the testimony? is that what you mean? mr. lane. not my conclusion. the result of the investigation, the result of inquiry. but at the same time it does not mean that an attorney's working documents are no longer sanctified documents. mr. rankin. about the same matter; is that right? mr. lane. of course, about the same matter. yes. mr. rankin. do you know of any law to support that position? mr. lane. that an attorney's working documents---- mr. rankin. can be withheld about a matter that he purports to give testimony concerning? mr. lane. i have not researched the question; no. do you have law indicating that is inaccurate? mr. rankin. i think it is quite inaccurate. if you come before any body, the commission or any court, and purport to disclose part of a matter, i know of no law that permits you to withhold the rest. mr. lane. well, it is not a question of disclosing part of a matter. there is a conclusion of an investigation. for example, i assume that this commission will report its conclusions, but they may not necessarily report every portion of the working documents before this commission, because these are two separate areas. one is a conclusion, and one is the working documents. i have reported the conclusion, but that does not mean, in my view, that the working documents of an attorney, therefore, are no longer privileged. mr. rankin. what you purported to report was what you said was her testimony in regard to these incidents, was it not? mr. lane. it was not her testimony. it was a statement that she made to me. mr. rankin. her statement she made to you? mr. lane. yes. mr. rankin. you purported to give that to the commission. mr. lane. i did give it to the commission. mr. rankin. and then you said you had a recording of it; is that right? mr. lane. that is correct. mr. rankin. and you are not---- mr. lane. i don't think i ever said that to the commission. mr. rankin. you are saying it now, are you not? mr. lane. yes; i am saying it now. mr. rankin. and you are not willing to have the commission have the recording to check the accuracy of your report about what the testimony or statement was, is that right? mr. lane. i am not in a position to give you that document. i have said that several times; yes, sir. i don't understand why it is not possible to call mrs. markham and to call me and to have us confront each other. i think clearly the commission would then secure the facts. i would be happy to participate in such a confrontation. it seems to me to be the order---- the chairman. wouldn't you then be violating your attorney-client privilege just the same? mr. lane. no; i don't have such a privilege--a relationship at the present time. that relationship terminated, as i said, in march. the chairman. well, you would freely discuss, though, the things that occurred while the attorney-client privilege did prevail, or did exist? mr. lane. no; i would merely ask mrs. markham a series of questions. the chairman. oh, yes; you would like to make the inquisition your own, but you are unwilling to testify before this commission. mr. lane. i don't think that an effort to represent a man who is being tried in absentia, after he was killed in the custody of police officers, is the same as asking for permission to conduct an inquisition, with all due respect to you, mr. chief justice. the chairman. mr. lane, you have manifested a great interest in lee harvey oswald and his relationship to this entire affair. according to you, mrs. markham made a statement that would bear upon the probability of his guilt or innocence in connection with the assassination. mrs markham has definitely contradicted what you have said, and do you not believe that it is in your own interest and in the interests of this country for you to give whatever corroboration you have to this commission so that we may determine whether you or she is telling the truth? mr. lane. i have given you all the information that i am permitted to give to you and to members of the commission. i understand from mr. rankin that mrs. markham denies that she ever talked with me. is that correct? the chairman. you needn't ask mr. rankin any questions. you won't answer the questions of this commission, and he is not under examination by you at the present time. mr. lane. i have answered questions. i spoke for about pages, without a single question being put to me, because i was anxious to give to this commission all the information in my possession. the chairman. yes, but you did not give us all the information. you did not tell us that you had a recording of what mrs. markham said to you. now, we ask you for verification of that conversation, because she has contradicted you. you say that you have a recording, but you refuse to give it to this commission. mr. lane. i am not in a position to give you that recording. i have made that quite plain. because of a matter which has arisen in the last or days, which i was made aware of yesterday for the first time, i am not in a position to do that. hopefully, i will be in a day or two. the chairman. we heard that when you were here in march--hopefully you would be able to tell us who this informant of yours was in dallas concerning the so-called meeting between jack ruby and others in his nightclub. and we have been pursuing you ever since with letters and entreaties to give us that information so that we might verify what you have said, if it is a fact, or disproving it if it is not a fact. here we pay your expenses from europe, bring you over here, and without telling us at all that you won't answer that question, you come before the commission and refuse to testify. do you consider that cooperation? mr. lane. mr. chief justice, i believe i am the only citizen in this country who has devoted months to securing information at his own expense. you talk about what it cost to go to europe. i have gone to europe twice, and i have paid for those trips myself. i have traveled all over this country. i have gone to dallas five times. i have paid for those trips myself, and i am not in a position financially to do that, but i have done that to give you this information. the chairman. were you getting evidence over in europe? mr. lane. no; i was discussing this case, because of the suppression in this country of the facts. i felt it important that somehow the american people be informed about what is taking place, and i found that practically the only way to inform the american people is to speak in europe. the chairman. have you charged admission for any of your speaking? mr. lane. have i charged admission? the chairman. yes. mr. lane. no; i have not charged admission. the chairman. do you collect any money in this country at the speeches that you made? mr. lane. did i, personally, collect any money? the chairman. did you have money collected? mr. lane. i collected no money. the chairman. did you have any money collected? mr. lane. i did not. the chairman. was there money collected at that meeting--at those meetings that you had? mr. lane. i spoke at probably different college campuses throughout the united states. the chairman. was money collected at those places? mr. lane. to my knowledge, at none of those meetings was money collected. at one or two or perhaps three other meetings, funds have been collected for the purpose of paying the salary of the secretary of this citizens committee of inquiry, and to pay the rent. the chairman. who got the money? mr. lane. the citizens committee of inquiry. the chairman. who is the head of that? mr. lane. i am the chairman of that. the chairman. who else belongs to it? mr. lane. among others, jessica mitford, who is the author who wrote "the american way of death," a best-selling book; sterling hayden, who is an actor; a number of attorneys, some in california, some in new york; and a number of others. i did not know that i was going to be questioned about the makeup of the citizens committee. otherwise, i would have brought the entire membership list. the chairman. i didn't intend to ask you, but we are trying to get information about these different things that you considered vital in the assassination of the president. and it is a matter of great concern to the commission that you are unwilling to tell us about those things that you considered bear upon the guilt or innocence of lee harvey oswald. and it handicaps us greatly in what we are trying to do, because of the things that you do say when you are away from the commission, and then when you refuse to testify before us as to those very things that you discuss in public. mr. lane. i have not said anything in public, mr. chief justice, that i have not said first before this commission, or at one time before this commission. the chairman. but, before your audiences, do you not claim to be telling the truth and to be verifying the things that you tell them, and then when you come here you refuse to give us the verification? mr. lane. when i speak before an audience, i do hold myself out to be telling the truth, just as when i have testified before this commission i have also told the truth. mr. rankin. mr. lane, you expressed a desire in your telegram to examine the rifle. we have that here for you to see. let the record show that at this time the commission is giving mr. lane an opportunity to examine the rifle known as commission exhibit no. . mr. lane. thank you. may i comment upon the examination? the chairman. yes; you may; if you saw anything of any significance there, you may state it. mr. lane. yes. i would like to call to the attention of the commission the affidavit signed by a police officer, seymour weitzman, dated the d day of november , the original of which was at one time in the office of the district attorney of dallas. in that document, officer weitzman states he found, along with another person--a deputy sheriff, i believe, or a deputy of some sort--the alleged murder weapon, on the d day of november , on the sixth floor of the book depository building. and in that affidavit mr. weitzman--officer weitzman--swears that the murder weapon which he found, or the weapon which he found on that floor, was a mauser . millimeters. a mauser, of course, is a german weapon. the rifle which is before the commission, and which is, i assume, allegedly now the murder weapon, is, of course, not a german mauser . millimeters, but is an italian carbine, . millimeters. although i am personally not a rifle expert, i was able to determine that it was an italian carbine because printed indelibly upon it are the words "made italy" and "caliber . ." i suggest it is very difficult for a police officer to pick up a weapon which has printed upon it clearly in english "made italy, cal . ," and then the next day draft an affidavit stating that that was in fact a german mauser, . millimeters. the chairman. very well. anything further? we will take a short recess, then. (brief recess.) the chairman. gentlemen, the commission will come to order. there is nothing further at this time. the meeting is adjourned. (whereupon, at : p.m., the president's commission recessed.) statement of president lyndon b. johnson the white house, _washington, july , _. the honorable earl warren, _the chief justice of the united states, washington, d.c._ my dear mr. chief justice: i have attempted, in the enclosed statement, to set forth my recollection of the tragic events of november , . i am conscious of the limitations of my narrative. i had no opportunity, in the difficult and critical days following the assassination of president kennedy, to record my impressions. recollection at this late date is necessarily incomplete. however, i fully realize the great importance of your task, and i have endeavored, as best i can, to set forth the events and my impressions as they remain in my mind at this time. although i fear that they will be of little specific use to you, i hope that they may be of some interest. i hope that you and the members of your commission, as well as the devoted members of the staff who have worked so long and diligently on this undertaking, will accept my thanks and good wishes. sincerely, lyndon b. johnson. [enclosure.] * * * * * [statement of the president, lyndon baines johnson, concerning the events of november , ] friday morning, november , began with a reception in the longhorn room of the hotel texas, fort worth. president and mrs. kennedy and mrs. johnson and i had spent the night in that hotel. then, president kennedy and i went to a parking lot across from the hotel where a speaker's stand had been set up and we addressed a crowd that was gathered there. we then returned to the hotel and had breakfast. after that, at about : a.m., we motored to the fort worth airfield. mrs. johnson and i then went aboard _air force ii_ for the trip to dallas. we arrived at love field in dallas, as i remember, just shortly after : a.m. agents youngblood and johns and two other agents were with us. we disembarked from the plane promptly after it came to a stop at love field. we were met by a committee of local officials and citizens. after greeting them, mrs. johnson and i, together with the special agents, walked over to the area where president and mrs. kennedy would disembark. we were followed by the reception committee. president kennedy's plane arrived about or minutes after _air force ii_. the president and mrs. kennedy disembarked and they greeted us and the people in the reception committee. then the president and mrs. kennedy walked along the fence, shaking hands with people in the crowd that had assembled. mrs. johnson and i followed along the fence, greeting people and shaking hands. this took or minutes, as i recall. mrs. johnson, senator ralph yarborough, and i then entered the car which had been provided for us in the motorcade. it was a lincoln continental convertible. i think that our car was the fourth in the motorcade. we were the second car behind the president's automobile. the driver of the car in which mrs. johnson and i were riding was hurchel jacks, who is a member of the texas state highway patrol. agent youngblood was sitting next to him in the front seat. i was sitting behind agent youngblood; mrs. johnson was next to me; and senator yarborough was on the left of the rear seat--that is, just behind the driver. at first, as we left love field and proceeded through the less-populated areas, the crowds were thin. i recall, however, that mrs. johnson and i and senator yarborough commented upon the good spirit and obvious good wishes of the crowd. as we drove closer to town, the crowds became quite large. we made several stops as a result of stops by the automobiles ahead of us. i did not get out of the car, but on occasion a few people broke from the crowd and ran over, and i shook hands with several people on these occasions. the motorcade proceeded down main street and then turned right on houston. it then turned into elm, which is a block, i believe, beyond the intersection of main and houston. the crowd on elm street was smaller. as the motorcade proceeded down elm street to the point where the assassination occurred, it was traveling at a speed which i should estimate at or miles and hour. after we had proceeded a short way down elm street, i heard a sharp report. the crowd at this point had become somewhat spotty. the vice-presidential car was then about three car lengths behind president kennedy's car, with the presidential followup car intervening. i was startled by the sharp report or explosion, but i had no time to speculate as to its origin because agent youngblood turned in a flash, immediately after the first explosion, hitting me on the shoulder, and shouted to all of us in the back seat to get down. i was pushed down by agent youngblood. almost in the same moment in which he hit or pushed me, he vaulted over the back seat and sat on me. i was bent over under the weight of agent youngblood's body, toward mrs. johnson and senator yarborough. i remember attempting to turn my head to make sure that mrs. johnson had bent down. both she and senator yarborough had crouched down at agent youngblood's command. at some time in this sequence of events, i heard other explosions. it was impossible for me to tell the direction from which the explosions came. i felt the automobile sharply accelerate, and in a moment or so agent youngblood released me. i ascertained that mrs. johnson and senator yarborough were all right. i heard agent youngblood speaking over his radio transmitter. i asked him what had happened. he said that he was not sure but that he had learned that the motorcade was going to the hospital. i did not see anything that was going on in and around the president's automobile. when we arrived at the hospital; agent youngblood told me to get out of the car, go into the building, not to stop, and to stay close to him and the other agents. when the car came to a stop, a cordon of agents formed around me, and we walked rapidly into the hospital and then we went into a room there. because of the method which agent youngblood directed for leaving the car and entering the hospital, i did not see the presidential car or any of the persons in it. in the hospital room to which mrs. johnson and i were taken, the shades were drawn--i think by agent youngblood. in addition to him, two or three other agents were there. as i remember, we got our first specific report from emory roberts, one of the agents from the white house detail. he told us that president kennedy had been very badly injured and that his condition was quite poor. he said that he thought we should make plans to get back to washington immediately. i asked about governor connally and was told that he, too, had been shot, but that his wound was not serious. i was told that mrs. kennedy and mrs. connally were uninjured and that no one else had been hurt. mrs. johnson and i asked if we could see mrs. kennedy and mrs. connally. agent youngblood told me that i could not leave the room, and i followed his direction. mrs. johnson was allowed to leave for this purpose. at some time during these events, kenneth o'donnell, congressman jack brooks, congressman homer thornberry, and cliff carter came into the room. it was ken o'donnell who, at about : p.m., told us that the president had died. i think his precise words were, "he's gone." o'donnell said that we should return to washington and that we should take the president's plane for this purpose. i found it hard to believe that this had happened. the whole thing seemed unreal--unbelievable. a few hours earlier, i had breakfast with john kennedy; he was alive, strong, vigorous. i could not believe now that he was dead. i was shocked and sickened. when mr. o'donnell told us to get on the plane and go back to washington, i asked about mrs. kennedy. o'donnell told me that mrs. kennedy would not leave the hospital without the president's body, and urged again that we go ahead and and take _air force i_ and return to washington. i did not want to go and leave mrs. kennedy in this situation. i said so, but i agreed that we would board the airplane and wait until mrs. kennedy and the president's body were brought aboard the plane. it is, of course, difficult to convey an accurate impression of the period of time that we were in the hospital room. we were all stunned. i suppose we were in a state of shock and there was no time for the shock to wear off sufficiently so that the magnitude of our personal loss of this great man and good friend could express itself in words or in surface feelings. i suppose, actually, that the only outlet for the grief that shock had submerged was our sharp, painful, and bitter concern and solicitude for mrs. kennedy. despite my awareness of the reasons for mr. o'donnell's insistence--in which i think he was joined by one or more of the secret service agents--that we board the airplane, leave dallas, and go to washington without delay, i was determined that we would not return until mrs. kennedy was ready, and that we would carry the president's body back with us if she wanted. we left the room and were ushered by a cordon of agents to cars which were awaiting us. at agent youngblood's insistence, i entered one car and mrs. johnson another. agent youngblood and i were sitting in the back seat and congressman thornberry was in the front seat. as we started away from the hospital, congressman albert thomas came up to the car. he saw congressman thornberry--i don't think he saw me--and he asked the congressman to wait for him. at my direction, the car stopped and picked him up and he sat in the front seat with congressman thornberry. i am sure this didn't take as much as minute. congressman thornberry then climbed over and got into the back seat with us. when we got to the airport, we proceeded to drive to the ramp leading into the plane, and we entered the plane. we were ushered into the private quarters of the president's plane. it didn't seem right for john kennedy not to be there. i told someone that we preferred for mrs. kennedy to use these quarters. shortly after we boarded the plane, i called robert kennedy, the president's brother and the attorney general. i knew how grief-stricken he was, and i wanted to say something that would comfort him. despite his shock, he discussed the practical problems at hand--problems of special urgency because we did not at that time have any information as to the motivation of the assassination or its possible implications. the attorney general said that he would like to look into the matter of whether the oath of office as president should be administered to me immediately or after we returned to washington, and that he would call back. i thereafter talked with mcgeorge bundy and walter jenkins, both of whom urged that the return to washington should not be delayed. i told them i was waiting for mrs. kennedy and for the president's body to be placed on the plane, and would not return prior to that time. as i remember, our conversation was interrupted to allow the attorney general to come back on the line. he said that the oath should be administered to me immediately, before taking off for washington, and that it should be administered by a judicial officer of the united states. shortly thereafter, the deputy attorney general, mr. katzenbach, dictated the form of oath to one of the secretaries aboard the plane. i thought of sarah hughes, an old friend who is judge of the u.s. district court in dallas. we telephoned judge hughes' office. she was not there, but she returned the call in a few minutes and said she would be at the airplane in minutes. i asked that arrangements be made to permit her to have access to the airplane. a few minutes later mrs. kennedy and the president's coffin arrived. mrs. johnson and i spoke to her. we tried to comfort her, but our words seemed inadequate. she went into the private quarters of the plane. i estimate that mrs. kennedy and the coffin arrived about a half hour after we entered the plane--just after o'clock. about a half hour later, i asked someone to find out if mrs. kennedy would stand with us during the administration of the oath. mrs. johnson went back to be with her. mrs. kennedy came and stood with us during the moments that the oath was being administered. i shall never forget her bravery, nobility, and dignity. i'm told that the oath was administered at : p.m. mrs. johnson and mrs. kennedy were at my side as judge hughes administered the oath of office. the plane took off promptly after the swearing-in ceremonies. i then called president kennedy's mother, mrs. rose kennedy. she had previously been advised of the assassination. i told her of our grief and of our sorrow for her. i gave the telephone to mrs. johnson, who also tried to bring a word of comfort to the president's mother. i then called nellie connally, the governor's wife, and told her of our concern for her and john, and tried to give her some comfort. i then asked general clifton, the military aide to the president, to call mcgeorge bundy in washington to instruct him to ask the cabinet members who were on their way to japan to return immediately. when we landed at the andrews air force base, i made a short statement for the press, radio, and television. in my heart, i asked for god's help that i should not prove unworthy of the responsibility which fate had thrust upon me. lyndon b. johnson. statement of mrs. lyndon b. johnson the white house, _washington, july , _. the honorable earl warren, _the chief justice of the united states, washington, d.c_. my dear mr. chief justice: mr. lee rankin, chief counsel to the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy, has advised me that the commission would be interested to have a statement from me concerning my recollection of the events of november , . beginning on november , and as i found time on the following days, i dictated my recollection of that fateful and dreadful day on a small tape recorder which i had at the elms, where we were then living. i did this primarily as a form of therapy--to help me over the shock and horror of the experience of president kennedy's assassination. i did not intend that the tape should be used. the quality of the tape recording is very poor, but upon considering your commission's request, i decided to ask that the tape relating to november be transcribed. i am sending the transcription to you with only a few, minor corrections. perhaps it will serve your purposes. i hope so. in any event, it is a more faithful record of my recollection and impressions than i could produce at this late date. please accept, for yourself and the members of the commission and its staff, my thanks and best wishes for the important task which you have undertaken and to which all of you have so generously dedicated yourselves. sincerely, (s) lady bird johnson, mrs. lyndon b. johnson. [enclosure.] * * * * * [transcript from mrs. johnson's tapes relating to november , ] it all began so beautifully. after a drizzle in the morning, the sun came out bright and beautiful. we were going into dallas. in the lead car, president and mrs. kennedy, john and nellie, and then a secret service car full of men, and then our car--lyndon and me and senator yarborough. the streets were lined with people--lots and lots of people--the children all smiling; placards, confetti; people waving from windows. one last happy moment i had was looking up and seeing mary griffith leaning out of a window waving at me. mary for many years had been in charge of altering the clothes which i purchased at a dallas store. then almost at the edge of town, on our way to the trade mart where we were going to have the luncheon, we were rounding a curve, going down a hill, and suddenly there was a sharp loud report--a shot. it seemed to me to come from the right, above my shoulder, from a building. then a moment and then two more shots in rapid succession. there had been such a gala air that i thought it must be firecrackers or some sort of celebration. then, in the lead car, the secret service men were suddenly down. i heard over the radio system, "let's get out of here," and our secret service man who was with us, ruf youngblood, i believe it was, vaulted over the front seat on top of lyndon, threw him to the floor, and said, "get down." senator yarborough and i ducked our heads. the car accelerated terrifically fast--faster and faster. then suddenly they put on the brakes so hard that i wondered if they were going to make it as we wheeled left and went around the corner. we pulled up to a building. i looked up and saw it said "hospital." only then did i believe that this might be what it was. yarborough kept on saying in an excited voice, "have they shot the president?" i said something like, "no; it can't be." as we ground to a halt--we were still the third car--secret service men began to pull, lead, guide, and hustle us out. i cast one last look over my shoulder and saw, in the president's car, a bundle of pink, just like a drift of blossoms, lying on the back seat. i think it was mrs. kennedy lying over the president's body. they led us to the right, the left, and onward into a quiet room in the hospital--a very small room. it was lined with white sheets, i believe. people came and went--kenny o'donnell, congressman thornberry, congressman jack brooks. always there was ruf right there, emory roberts, jerry kivett, lem johns, and woody taylor. there was talk about where we would go--back to washington, to the plane, to our house. people spoke of how widespread this may be. through it all, lyndon was remarkably calm and quiet. every face that came in, you searched for the answers you must know. i think the face i kept seeing it on was the face of kenny o'donnell, who loved him so much. it was lyndon as usual who thought of it first, although i wasn't going to leave without doing it. he said, "you had better try to see if you can see jackie and nellie." we didn't know what had happened to john. i asked the secret service men if i could be taken to them. they began to lead me up one corridor, back stairs, and down another. suddenly i found myself face to face with jackie in a small hall. i think it was right outside the operating room. you always think of her--or someone like her--as being insulated, protected; she was quite alone. i don't think i ever saw anyone so much alone in my life. i went up to her, put my arms around her, and said something to her. i'm sure it was something like, "god, help us all," because my feelings for her were too tumultuous to put into words. and then i went in to see nellie. there it was different because nellie and i have gone through so many things together since . i hugged her tight and we both cried and i said, "nellie, it's going to be all right." and nellie said, "yes; john's going to be all right." among her many other fine qualities, she is also tough. then i turned and went back to the small white room where lyndon was. mr. kilduff and kenny o'donnell were coming and going. i think it was from kenny's face and kenny's voice that i first heard the words, "the president is dead." mr. kilduff entered and said to lyndon, "mr. president." it was decided that we would go immediately to the airport. quick plans were made about how to get to the car, who to ride in what. it was lyndon who said we should go to the plane in unmarked cars. getting out of the hospital into the cars was one of the swiftest walks i have ever made. we got in. lyndon said to stop the sirens. we drove along as fast as we could. i looked up at a building and there already was a flag at half-mast. i think that is when the enormity of what had happened first struck me. when we got to the airplane, we entered airplane no. for the first time. there was a tv set on, and the commentator was saying, "lyndon b. johnson, now president of the united states." they were saying they had a suspect. they were not sure he was the assassin. the president had been shot with a - rifle. on the plane, all the shades were lowered. lyndon said that we were going to wait for mrs. kennedy and the coffin. there was discussion about when lyndon should be sworn in as president. there was a telephone call to washington--i believe to the attorney general. it was decided that he should be sworn in in dallas as quickly as possible because of international implications, and because we did not know how widespread this incident was as to intended victims. judge sarah hughes, a federal judge in dallas--and i am glad it was she--was called to come in a hurry. mrs. kennedy had arrived by this time and the coffin, and there--in the very narrow confines of the plane with jackie on his left with her hair falling in her face, but very composed, and then lyndon, and i was on his right, judge hughes with the bible in front of her and a cluster of secret service people and congressmen we had known for a long time--lyndon took the oath of office. it's odd at a time like that the little things that come to your mind and a moment of deep compassion you have for people who are really not at the center of the tragedy. i heard a secret service man say in the most desolate voice and i hurt for him, "we never lost a president in the service," and then police chief curry, of dallas, came on the plane and said to mrs. kennedy, "mrs. kennedy, believe me, we did everything we possibly could." we all sat around the plane. we had at first been ushered into the main private presidential cabin on the plane--but lyndon quickly said, "no, no" and immediately led us out of there; we felt that is where mrs. kennedy should be. the casket was in the hall. i went in to see mrs. kennedy and, though it was a very hard thing to do, she made it as easy as possible. she said things like, "oh, lady bird, it's good that we've always liked you two so much." she said, "oh, what if i had not been there? i'm so glad i was there." i looked at her. mrs. kennedy's dress was stained with blood. her right glove was caked--that immaculate woman--it was caked with blood, her husband's blood. she always wore gloves like she was used to them. i never could. somehow that was one of the most poignant sights--exquisitely dressed and caked in blood. i asked her if i couldn't get someone in to help her change, and she said, "oh, no. perhaps later i'll ask mary gallagher, but not right now." she said a lot of other things, like, "what if i had not been there? oh, i'm so glad i was there," and a lot of other things that made it so much easier for us. "oh, lady bird, we've always liked you both so much." i tried to express something of how we felt. i said, "oh, mrs. kennedy, you know we never even wanted to be vice president and now, dear god, it's come to this." i would have done anything to help her, but there was nothing i could do to help her, so rather quickly i left and went back to the main part of the airplane where everyone was seated. the ride to washington was silent, strained--each with his own thoughts. one of mine was something i had said about lyndon a long time ago--that he's a good man in a tight spot. i even remember one little thing he said in that hospital room, "tell the children to get a secret service man with them." finally, we got to washington, with a cluster of people watching. many bright lights. the casket went off first; then mrs. kennedy. the family had come to join them, and then we followed. lyndon made a very simple, very brief, and--i think--strong, talk to the folks there. only about four sentences, i think. we got in cars; we dropped him off at the white house, and i came home. _tuesday, july , _ testimony of ambassador llewellyn e. thompson the president's commission met at p.m., on july , , at maryland avenue ne., washington, d.c. present were senator john sherman cooper (presiding), and allen w. dulles, members. also present were j. lee rankin, general counsel; w. david slawson, assistant counsel; and richard a. frank, attorney, office of the legal adviser, department of state. senator cooper. the commission will be in order. do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before this commission is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? ambassador thompson. i do. mr. slawson. mr. ambassador, could you please state for the record your full name and address? ambassador thompson. my name is llewellyn e. thompson. i reside at d street nw., washington. mr. slawson. and could you state your present position with the u.s. government and the positions you have held since late ? ambassador thompson. in i was ambassador in moscow, and then i was transferred to the state department as ambassador at large, and have been that since that time. in addition, i am now acting deputy under secretary of state. mr slawson. thank you. ambassador thompson has been asked to testify today on any contacts he may have had with lee harvey oswald while the ambassador was in his post with the american embassy in moscow and on any knowledge he may have on pertinent soviet practices or american practices at that time which might relate to the treatment of mr. oswald. ambassador thompson, could you state all of the times and describe them when you heard about lee harvey oswald's dealings with your embassy at moscow while he was in russia, either in late or thereafter? ambassador thompson. yes; the only recollection i have is that when i returned from a trip to the united states in november , or some time after that, the consul informed me about the case, and said this man had asked to renounce his citizenship. i recall asking him---- mr. dulles. was that consul richard e. snyder? ambassador thompson. yes; i am almost certain of that. i recall asking him why he didn't accept the renunciation, and he explained that in cases of this kind he normally waited to make sure the man was serious, and also in order to normally consult the state department. i believe he told me at that time that the man had not come back again. and i believe that is the only recollection i have of the case at all at the time i was in moscow. mr. slawson. and that includes any other time thereafter, including through ? ambassador thompson. yes; of course i read the press and was aware of the case when it came up in the department. there was some discussion of it. but no knowledge that i think would bear on the case. i recall, i think, being in germany at the time i read in the press that he was leaving the country--leaving moscow, that is. but i don't recall having been consulted about his application to leave. mr. slawson. did you have any personal dealings or any knowledge of your subordinates' dealings with marina oswald, lee oswald's wife, when she applied to accompany him back to the united states in early and frequently thereafter? ambassador thompson. none that i recall. mr. slawson. mr. ambassador, i wonder if you could make any comments you would like to make on the policy which consul snyder and others testifying for the department of state have described in their treatment of americans who sought to renounce their citizenship when they came to moscow, and how these americans were handled? ambassador thompson. well, i am aware that we have had cases where someone would say they wanted to renounce their citizenship and then after a few days in the soviet union change their minds. and while i don't recall any specific cases, i do know we have had cases of that sort. mr. slawson. was there any particular time in your career when this sort of thing was more frequent than other times--any groups of people where it might have occurred? ambassador thompson. well, i know that prior to my arrival in moscow in , when i was secretary in the embassy, that there had been a great influx from the united states, particularly of people of finnish origin, who had returned to the soviet union. i think that some of those people at least had not renounced their citizenship; they had come over there under the impression that they would receive very good treatment, and a great many of them applied subsequently to return to the united states. but many of them were unable to get exit visas. mr. slawson. were those that did not give up their american citizenship usually able to return to the united states if they changed their mind? ambassador thompson. i believe so. i know of one case of a man of finnish origin who worked for the embassy, and he did return to the united states. it is the one case i know of personally. i am quite sure there were some others who did get out. mr. slawson. shifting now to the soviet treatment of american defectors, or would-be defectors, are there any cases in your experience where you could comment on the soviet treatment of such persons, how quickly the russian government made up its mind whether it wanted them for permanent residence in russia and so on? ambassador thompson. i think that in recent times, at least, my impression is that the soviets, because of bad experience they have had with some people who came there to reside, and renounced their citizenship, have looked these people over and let them know that they could not remain. i think there was a case since i left the soviet union of that sort. i don't recall the exact particulars. but i do have the impression that they now don't automatically accept people who come and say they want to renounce their citizenship and would like to reside there. mr. slawson. can you give the commission any estimate on the time periods that sometimes are involved in the soviet authorities making up their mind? ambassador thompson. i think that there has been at least a case or two during the time i was there where it was pretty obvious that the person concerned was unstable and that the soviets very quickly let the person know that he could not reside. but since i did not handle these cases, i do not--i could not cite any specific cases. mr. slawson. mr. ambassador, i have a name of an american citizen, mr. william edgerton morehouse, jr., who, according to the records of the department of state, was hospitalized in a hospital in moscow in the fall of . according to records furnished us by the russian government, and according to the personal diary kept by lee harvey oswald, he, too, was hospitalized in the latter part of october, and commented--oswald commented in his diary--that in his ward with him was what he described as an elderly american. we are trying to locate that american. we think that possibly this mr. morehouse was that person. i wonder if you had ever heard of mr. morehouse before, or know who he might be? ambassador thompson. i have no recollection of having heard of this man before. mr. slawson. do you have any recollection of any other american that might fit this description? ambassador thompson. no; i do recall that there have been american tourists who have been in the hospital in moscow. but i don't recall at that particular date whether there were any. mr. slawson. mr. ambassador, can you comment on how americans were ordinarily given medical treatment in the botkinskaya hospital in moscow, which was the hospital in which oswald was treated, to the best of your knowledge? ambassador thompson. the botkinskaya hospital has a section which is reserved for the members of the diplomatic corps, and in case of prominent americans, particularly if the illness were serious, they were often treated there. mr. slawson. you say the americans normally were treated in a special ward in that hospital, or a special section of it? ambassador thompson. yes; it was a completely separate building, i believe. mr. slawson. was this the invariable method of treatment, or would there be a reasonable chance that an american might have gone into a normal soviet ward which would have treated his type of illness? ambassador thompson. i would think that the ward which was reserved for the diplomatic corps would probably only have been used for important visitors, but it is quite a large hospital, with a large number of separate buildings. it is quite possible for americans to have been in one or the other. and obviously, if there were an infectious disease, they would be separated, and not in the regular section. mr. slawson. if an ordinary american tourist or businessman in moscow were to receive an injury in, say, an automobile accident or some other normal method, would he normally be put into the same ward as embassy people were placed, or would he receive treatment right along with normal soviet citizens? ambassador thompson. i think that there is an emergency hospital type where he probably would normally be taken, rather than botkinskaya. i cannot be sure of this. but we had an american doctor in the embassy who would normally be called in on cases of this kind, and if he felt the case required it he would probably apply to have him taken to botkinskaya. mr. slawson. do you recollect who this doctor was in the fall of ? ambassador thompson. i believe at that time it was an air force officer. it sometimes rotated among the services. but i am almost certain it was an air force officer. i could get the name, but i don't recall it at the moment. i just don't recall the name. senator cooper. i suggest that the secretary can supply the name for the commission. mr. slawson. mr. ambassador, do you think it would be usual of the soviet government to permit someone in oswald's circumstances, that is a would-be defector from his own government, to be treated in the same ward as other americans, or particularly as americans who might come under the category of this important person or embassy official ward you were speaking of? ambassador thompson. i would think it is probably somewhat unusual. this doctor could give you expert testimony on this, because he has been involved in almost all cases. mr. dulles. do you happen to know whether that doctor is in the united states at the present time? ambassador thompson. he was in texas the last i heard. i draw a blank on his name at the moment, although i know him quite well. mr. slawson. i think with the lead you have given us, we shouldn't have any difficulty in finding his name. i have no other questions. does anyone else present care to place a question? senator cooper. it appears from the testimony that we have heard that lee oswald appeared at the embassy on october , , and stated he wished to renounce his american citizenship. as i understand, at that time you were out of the soviet union. ambassador thompson. that is correct. senator cooper. was edward l. freers, chargé d'affaire? ambassador thompson. yes, sir. senator cooper. was there a consulate in moscow? ambassador thompson. there is a consular section of the embassy, but not a separate consulate. senator cooper. who had charge of the consulate section of the embassy? ambassador thompson. at that time i believe it was mr. richard snyder. senator cooper. and was he the one who advised you on your return to moscow that oswald had applied to the embassy and stated that he wished to renounce his citizenship? ambassador thompson. i believe that is correct. i think the counselor was also present at the time. i think both of them informed me. senator cooper. we have had in evidence dispatches from the embassy at moscow upon this question, and the matter was referred to the department of state as to what steps should be taken towards his renunciation. was that the normal way of the embassy handling such applications for renunciation of citizenship? ambassador thompson. yes, sir; i believe that would be done in every case. senator cooper. did the state department have any policy, other than reference to the state department, as to the approval of such applications? ambassador thompson. i believe our practice is that whenever we are convinced that the man is serious, and knows what he is doing, that this is allowed to take place--the renunciation is accepted. senator cooper. is there a policy or practice of attempting to determine whether the person is serious, or whether the person might change his or her mind after the original renunciation application? ambassador thompson. yes; that is correct. because, as i said earlier, there have been cases where people have changed their minds in a very few days. also, there is always the possibility that someone might be temporarily of unsound mind or some other reason, why it would need to be ascertained that they were aware of what they were doing. senator cooper. there is also in evidence a letter, or a dispatch from the embassy to the department of state, dated may , , signed for the ambassador by edward l. freers, minister counselor. this dispatch deals with the application of oswald to secure a renewal of his passport. were you out of moscow at that time? ambassador thompson. what was the date, sir? senator cooper. may , . ambassador thompson. i believe i was in moscow at that time. i took a trip within the soviet union from may to , , but i believe i was there on may . senator cooper. then these dispatches, they were sent in your name, or by someone for the ambassador? ambassador thompson. yes; but i don't recall having been shown them. mr. slawson. for the record, senator cooper, could i state that the dispatch of may , , you referred to is commission exhibit no. , and the memorandum you are also reading from is commission exhibit no. . mr. dulles. how were those signed, mr. slawson? mr. slawson. commission exhibit no. is signed for the ambassador by boris h. klosson, counselor for political affairs. and commission exhibit no. is signed for the ambassador by edward l. freers, minister counselor. senator cooper. i might also refer to the earlier dispatch november , , commission exhibit no. . now, were the procedures followed with respect to his request for renewal of his passport--that is in reference to the department of state, for decision--was that the normal procedure followed when persons who had attempted to renounce or had renounced, claimed or desired to secure renewal of their passport--to refer it to the department of state? ambassador thompson. yes, sir; i think in every case that would be done. senator cooper. now, between the time of oswald's entrance into the soviet union and his exit, did you ever see oswald yourself? ambassador thompson. no, sir; i never saw him that i knew of. senator cooper. did you hear anything about him during his stay in the soviet union? ambassador thompson. my only recollection is of this first briefing. i don't recall hearing anything else about him. senator cooper. in evidence it has appeared that not too long after he came to moscow, he went to minsk and secured a job there. from your experience as ambassador, our ambassador in russia, and also in other positions in the embassy, would you consider that unusual, that oswald should be able to secure a job in a russian factory while he was there? ambassador thompson. no, sir; i think that once they had agreed to let him stay in the soviet union, they would have assisted him in obtaining employment, because they believe that everyone that is able to in the country should work, and since he was obviously not staying just as a tourist, i think they would normally have provided employment for him. senator cooper. also in evidence it indicates he was provided by the soviet officials with a passport or document which described him as a stateless person. from your experience would you be able to say whether or not that was a normal procedure for the soviets to follow with respect to an american tourist? ambassador thompson. i think that as long as they agreed to let him stay beyond the normal time of a tourist, that is a month or at the most months, that they would then provide him with documentation so he could identify himself to the police. the police would not normally be able to read an american passport. in the soviet union, if you travel at all, you have to produce documentation--to stay in a hotel, very often to obtain transportation. so i think it would be normal that they would provide him with documentation. senator cooper. would you say that in late , or or that the provision by the soviet union officials to a tourist of a document like this, saying he is a stateless person, and allowing him to stay beyond the usual time, for a tourist, was ordinary or usual? would that indicate anything unusual to you, from your experience in the embassy in moscow? ambassador thompson. no; i think not. i think that in cases of this kind that this would be normal. senator cooper. would it indicate in any way that they might be considering further his application to become a citizen of the soviet union or, in another way, that they were considering whether or not he might be used as an agent of the soviet union? ambassador thompson. well, i think there have been a good many cases of people who have come to the soviet union from abroad, and i believe that a number of them have not formally renounced citizenship. i recall that in , when germany attacked the soviet union, that there were a number of people who turned up that we had not known were in the soviet union, had never been near the embassy, and had never, as far as we know renounced their citizenship. but they had been living there all this time. senator cooper. you would not have any reason to think, then, that these circumstances might indicate that the soviets were--could consider using him as an agent at some future time? ambassador thompson. i would not have much on which to base a judgment on that, other than that it seems to me, of course, possible, in this or any other case in which a foreigner has come in to reside. but as i say there have been a great many cases. for example, there are many people of armenian origin who have returned to the soviet union and have been encouraged to do so by the soviet government. and in view of the very large numbers, i would think that the intention to use any of them as an agent would be very rare. as far as i can understand, they encouraged them to come back because they wanted their skills available. senator cooper. when he applied for a renewal of his passport, his wife, marina, made application for a passport. and i believe it was said that that was a prerequisite to securing an exit visa from the soviet union. from your experience as ambassador and in other posts in the american embassy, do you consider the time in which she was able to secure an exit visa from russia, within so short time, as unusual? ambassador thompson. well, if it was a short time--and i am not aware of the exact time, myself--but if it were a short time, i would say it is unusual, because we have had cases that drag out over years, and in many cases, of course, they never get an exit visa. senator cooper. well, perhaps without reference to time, from your experience, have you found that--do you know whether it was difficult for a soviet citizen, such as marina oswald, even though she might be married to an american--that it is difficult for them to secure an exit visa from the soviet union? ambassador thompson. yes; it is very difficult. senator cooper. do you know the basis for that? is it that they do not want to permit the exit of any soviet citizen? ambassador thompson. i think that except in the cases of rather elderly people, they have not wanted any of their people to leave permanently. they let them go on tourist trips abroad, but not for permanent residence. as you possibly know, leaving the soviet union without permission is one of the most severely punished crimes you can commit in the soviet union. senator cooper. what was that? ambassador thompson. leaving without permission. senator cooper. would the fact that there was a child born to lee oswald and marina oswald have altered this practice of the soviet union, as far as any experience that you have had or any knowledge you have had about such cases? ambassador thompson. i think the existence of a child born in the soviet union would normally make it more difficult for a person to secure an exit visa. mr. slawson. mr. ambassador, in the facts of the oswald case they applied to leave the soviet union, of course, well before their first child was born, and in fact probably received soviet permission to leave in late december , and the child, i believe, was born in february --although the oswalds in fact did not leave until very early june . they nevertheless had received soviet permission to do so before the child was born. in light of that fact, could you comment further upon the perhaps greater difficulty of leaving when you have a child? ambassador thompson. well, i think probably having once processed the case and agreed to let the husband and wife leave, that they would have been more inclined then to let the child leave than if the case had been considered after the child was born. senator cooper. i take it the policy of the united states would be the reverse--that is, because marina was the wife of lee oswald, and because the baby had been born, the practice of the united states would be to grant a passport to marina for the child. ambassador thompson. i believe that is right, on compassionate grounds. senator cooper. are you familiar with the testimony about a loan that was made to the oswalds in order to help them get back to the united states? ambassador thompson. i have read in the press that they had received the normal loan. senator cooper. can you say anything about that as a practice of the american government? ambassador thompson. i only know that in general where a citizen wishes to return to the united states and doesn't have the means to do so, that we frequently do assist them. this goes back many years. but i haven't been myself concerned in this for probably years, or even more. senator cooper. but is it the practice that if a determination has been made that the individual is an american citizen, therefore entitled to what protections are given to american citizens, if necessary, loans will be made to assist them to return to the united states? is that about the basis of the policy? ambassador thompson. that is correct; yes, sir. senator cooper. i think that is all i have. mr. dulles. did you have any conversations at any time while you were ambassador or after you returned to the united states with any soviet official with regard to the oswald case? ambassador thompson. i discussed with the soviet ambassador the desire of the commission to receive any documentation that they might have available, but i did not in any way discuss the case itself, nor did the soviet official with whom i talked. mr. dulles. and do you know of any conversations of that nature that any other official of the department had in connection with the oswald case? ambassador thompson. i do not myself know of any. mr. dulles. you probably would, would you not, if that had taken place--of any importance? ambassador thompson. off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. dulles. your testimony is you have no knowledge of any other conversations other than that of the secretary of state, in connection with communications to and from the soviet government on this case? ambassador thompson. that is correct. i know of no other cases where it was discussed with soviet officials. mr. dulles. that is all i have. mr. slawson. thank you very much, mr. ambassador. (whereupon, at : p.m., the president's commission adjourned.) _wednesday, september , _ testimony of c. douglas dillon the president's commission met at : p. m., on september , , at maryland avenue ne., washington, d.c. present were chief justice earl warren, chairman; senator richard b. russell, senator john sherman cooper, representative gerald r. ford, allen w. dulles, and john j. mccloy, members. also present was j. lee rankin, general counsel. the chairman. mr. secretary, would you please rise and follow me. do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god. secretary dillon. i do. the chairman. mr. rankin will conduct the examination, mr. secretary. secretary dillon. thank you, mr. chairman. mr. rankin. mr. secretary, will you state your name and residence, please? secretary dillon. c. douglas dillon of far hills, n.j., presently residing in washington, belmont road, nw. mr. rankin. do you have an official position with the government? secretary dillon. yes, i do. i am the secretary of the treasury. mr. rankin. in that capacity do you have responsibility for the secret service of the united states? secretary dillon. yes, the secret service is part of the treasury department. mr. rankin. have you had that position responsibility for some time? secretary dillon. since january , . mr. rankin. can you tell us briefly the nature of your supervision of the secret service, prior to the assassination? secretary dillon. yes. prior to the assassination, when i first took office as secretary of the treasury, i naturally tried to find out, in as much detail as seemed practical, how the various offices of the department functioned. one of the important ones was the secret service. so i had a number of interviews with chief baughman who was the chief of the secret service at that time. i got the general description from him of how the secret service operated, what their responsibilities were, what their problems were. after he retired, which was early, after i had only been there for a few months, i spoke with the president about this matter--president kennedy--and it was my responsibility to find a new chief of the secret service. he had known james rowley very well as head of the white house detail, and he felt that he would be an appropriate head of the secret service. i talked with chief baughman, and he thought there were two or three men, of whom rowley was one, qualified to be head of the secret service; so i decided to appoint rowley and thereafter talked with him considerably about the white house detail which he was more familiar with than chief baughman. however, i did not in any sense conduct a day-to-day supervision, or close following, of its day-to-day operations. the secret service had been functioning for many years and the presumption from its record was that it had been functioning successfully. i think that the events that have developed since november have very clearly shown that some of the procedures, many of them, need to be changed and improved. i think this is probably largely due, to a considerable extent due, to a very rapid change which probably took place without our fully realizing its importance in the last years, and which greatly increased the responsibility of the secret service. that is the greatly changed nature of presidential travel. mr. rankin. will you describe to us how that affects the problems of the secret service? secretary dillon. yes. in earlier times, the presidents did not travel very often. when he did travel, he generally traveled by train, which was a protected train. doing that, he could not cover very many parts of the country, and the secret service could move easily right along with him on the train that he was on. what happened since has been, first, the advent of airplanes. presidents beginning with president eisenhower began to move more rapidly and were able to travel considerably more, and on very short time differentials they could be in cities that were thousands of miles apart. however, this only just began with president eisenhower because, in the first place, jets were not yet available, and in the second place, in the last years of his term, he had to take greater care of his health, and he didn't travel around the country quite as much as his successors have. so when president kennedy came into office with the availability of, the relatively recent availability, of jets and his desire to travel, this greatly increased the burden on the secret service. formerly when they had a trip, they used to send out an advance agent to some big town. now the trip would be a -day trip, and there might be four towns, each one , miles apart, that would have to be covered thoroughly at the same time. i think that probably there was not a full realization by anyone of this problem. certainly the secret service came to me and said they needed more personnel, and we tried to get them more personnel. chief rowley testified, i thought quite convincingly, in before the various appropriations committees of the congress and met with very little success because i think that this was not fully understood by the public. the appropriations committees were a reflection of public understanding, and probably it was not even fully understood within the secret service. i would like---- senator russell. has there been any increase, mr. secretary, in the number of agents assigned to guard the president. i thought there had been some increase in recent years? secretary dillon. there has been some increase, and we have tried very hard to increase the secret service in the last or years. we have asked for more people every year, and while we never got the amount we asked for, we did get increases. i have the figures here. in , the entire secret service amounted to individuals, of whom were classified as agents. in , that is the fiscal year just finished, the figure was , of which were clerks and were agents. so we had achieved an increase of about agents, a little over a third. mr. dulles. that included both the counterfeiting responsibilities of the secret service as well as the presidential protection? secretary dillon. that is right. and i think it is important to note that the counterfeiting problem was also increasing in volume very rapidly and changing very rapidly at about the same time. actually that may have started a few years earlier because of the development of photography, which enabled one to counterfeit by photography instead of having to do it by hand engraving. representative ford. wasn't the specific request for an increase in the white house detail--i use this in a broad sense for both the president and vice president--primarily aimed at the increase of personnel for the vice president? secretary dillon. that was in one year. representative ford. ? secretary dillon. i think that was in--i think that was in . in the law was passed, and we did have a deficiency appropriation which was given to us. the following year when we came up for our regular appropriation, we not only did not get the full amount that we thought was necessary to cover the vice president, but they cut the protection we had been affording the vice president in half, and whereas there had been persons assigned, they reduced it to . representative ford. but there had been no reduction in the funds for the protection of the president? secretary dillon. for the white house detail; no. representative ford. it was a reduction for the protection of the vice president. secretary dillon. that is correct. but the thing that i think we are coming to is, it is perfectly obvious that we have to do a great deal more in this advance work, field work, in interviewing people who are dangers to the president or could be classified as such. we need more people in the field on account of this. that is what i say was not probably fully realized, although rowley specifically, when he first went up in asking for an increase, pitched it on that basis, but he did not have a very good reception from the appropriations committee at that time because they felt that the white house detail was the white house detail, right around the president. i don't think anyone fully understood the connection with people in the field. i am not sure that secret service made as good a case as they should, to be really understood on this. it has become clear now. representative ford. mr. rowley in that presentation asked for additional funds for and personnel for the protective research service? secretary dillon. i don't think it was specifically for that. it was for protection of the president, and he was the first person that made this type of request. baughman had always said that people in the field were counterfeiting and just worked a little bit for the president, and rowley when he came in was the first one that made this claim that they were needed to actually protect the president. he wanted more people in the field to do these things, and that was the thing that did not go over right away. i think it would be interesting here. we have---- mr. rankin. may i interrupt a moment? we have a problem with some of the members of the commission that have to go to the congress right away for the vote. they would like to question you if they may. senator cooper. i have a question which i think you can address yourself fully to later but considering these new factors which make the protection of the president more difficult, i would like to ask if it is your judgment that the secret service, if it is provided adequate personnel and if it is--if a broader criteria for the ascertainment of the persons who might be dangerous to the president is adopted, if it is your judgment that the secret service could meet these new factors and provide an effective protection for the president, taking into consideration the factors which you mentioned? secretary dillon. yes; i think they could. i think the answer is clearcut. i don't think that means that under every and all circumstances you could be absolutely a thousand percent certain that nothing can happen. you never can be in a situation like this. but i think they could be a great deal better, and you could feel everything has been done. we have just completed--the thing i wanted to say--this study we have been working on many months as to what is needed to provide this in the secret service. chief rowley was not able to give you this when he was here before. i have given a copy of this to mr. rankin. i think it ought to go into the record at this point. mr. rankin. mr. secretary, i will hand to you the document you just referred to, called planning document, u.s. secret service, and ask if that is the document that you were describing. secretary dillon. yes. that is the document; yes. mr. rankin. mr. chief justice, i would like to ask leave at this time to mark this document our next exhibit number which i will furnish later to the reporter, and offer it in evidence as part of this examination. the chairman. mr. secretary, that is not a security matter that couldn't go into the record, is it? secretary dillon. no. i have one thing i would like to say about that, and i think it should go into the record. what this is is our report as to how many personnel are needed and what has to be done and what they should do. we have transmitted that with a covering letter to the bureau of the budget. the final decision on what will be done on many of these things is taken in the light of recommendations of the bureau of the budget to the president and what he finally decides for budgetary reasons. so ordinarily budgetary matters are not published prior to the time the president has approved them. he hasn't approved this. he hasn't seen it, but i think under the circumstances i see no reason under this special circumstance, why this report should not go into the record, and i think it is perfectly all right. the chairman. the report may be admitted and take the next number. (commission exhibit no. -a was marked for identification and received in evidence.) representative ford. this would be the recommendation of the treasury department to the bureau of the budget for the personnel and the funds for the secret service in fiscal year ? secretary dillon. no. this is a recommendation to the bureau of the budget for the personnel and equipment that would be needed to put the secret service in what they consider adequate position to fully handle this problem. they feel that it would take about months to get all the necessary people on board and trained. if this were started right away, as we think it could be if a reapportionment on a deficiency basis were approved, this could start in fiscal year and depending on whether such is approved, the fiscal year final recommendation would be affected. but this is the total picture, and it is assuming our recommendation that they start in the next couple of months. representative ford. in other words, this is the plan that you would like instituted immediately regardless of budget considerations. secretary dillon. that is right. mr. mccloy. mr. secretary, there is nothing in this exhibit that in any way, according to your judgment, would compromise the protection of the security of the president if it became---- secretary dillon. oh, no; and there is also with it--it is just a covering letter but i think it is equally important--it is a letter which i wrote to the director of the budget on monday when i forwarded this plan to him, and i think that probably should also go in because it has a recommendation at the end covering the matter mr. ford raised. mr. rankin. mr. secretary, i will ask you if this document, dated angust , , is a copy of the letter that you have just referred to now? secretary dillon. that is correct. mr. rankin. mr. chief justice, i ask that this letter, dated august , , directed "dear kermit," from the secretary, be marked the next number in order and offered in evidence as part of the record. the chairman. it will be admitted. (commission exhibit no. -b was marked for identification and received in evidence.) secretary dillon. it is marked "limited official use," and i think that should be declassified for this purpose. mr. rankin. now, mr. secretary, will you very briefly describe the general plan of your planning document. we have that so we can use it in considerable detail, but if you can just summarize briefly. secretary dillon. well, in brief, this asks for a total of additional agents, which is about--not quite but nearly--a percent increase from the agents they now have. it asks also for clerks to add to the that are presently there. those are stenographers, typists and other clerical workers. and for five technicians. of this the idea is to put agents and the technicians in the prs. five would be used to maintain -hour coverage in the prs which is not presently in force because of lack of personnel. one would add to the research and countermeasures unit to fill out three full units that could be operating all the time. six of them would do advance work for prs with local agencies and institutions. one of the new things we have instituted is that each time they do an advance, someone from the prs goes out and works with the local law enforcement agencies. i think that is obviously a very important thing. they need more people in view of the volume of traveling. then they also need five more employees to expand our liaison with the other law enforcement and intelligence agencies. we now have one man assigned really full time to that. we found even in the period that we have been doing this that while that is a great help, much the best way would be to have individuals assigned to each agency that work full time with the agency, know the people in the agency, and that is the only way we can be sure we have adequate liaison. mr. dulles. may i ask, would that include the fbi? secretary dillon. oh, yes. mr. dulles. and the cia and military intelligence services? secretary dillon. oh, yes. mr. dulles. and the state department possibly? secretary dillon. yes. representative ford. could you specify those agencies. i was interested in what agencies you were referring to. secretary dillon. well, i would think certainly it would be the military, the fbi, the security services of the state department, and the cia. now, there may be additional ones. there are additional ones within the treasury department. i think we probably have one, for instance, with the intelligence section of the internal revenue service, alcohol and tobacco tax unit, and so forth, which a good deal can come out of. in addition we recommend here five technical specialists, two of which would be highly trained computer technicians, programers, and three less well trained to work with these others. the purpose of this is to automate the whole prs operation. we have been thinking of that for some time. it was something that obviously needed to be done. mr. rankin. excuse me, mr. secretary. will you describe a little more what you mean by automate. secretary dillon. i mean using electronic processing, punchcard systems, so that they would be able to pull out of their files for any locality, various different types of people that might be a danger or might have made threats to the president or to other high officials, so that they would be able to function rapidly and well in planning protection as the president travels to these various cities. mr. rankin. does that include computer systems? secretary dillon. yes. and what i was going to say was about or months before the events in dallas, the secret service had asked the ibm co. to make a study of this problem for it. that study was not completed until after the events in dallas, and it did not prove satisfactory because from our point of view it did not go into enough detail in being able to handle criteria so you could tell when you retrieved a name from the file whether it was truly dangerous or not. we needed a more complex system and after working with rand corp., the research analysis corp., and also talking with ibm, we all felt the best way would be to hire some good programers, knowing our problems, and then work out a pilot program and get consultants in. one of the things we recommend here is appropriation of $ , to get consultants from ibm co., honeywell or other companies, and get pilot machines to try to work out the details of this system. mr. mccloy. for the record, mr. secretary, you had no electronic system of this character operating before the assassination? secretary dillon. no. now, the total of that is agents and specialists for the prs. in addition, for a long time, mr. rowley has believed that it would be preferable to improve the capacity of the white house detail if we could establish a headquarters pool of men where new individuals who are going into the white house detail would be fully trained first--before, they had to be trained sort of partially on the job--and also through which you could rotate people from the field from time to time, bringing them up to date on presidential protection. so we would ask for people, spaces for that. we have asked for spaces to provide adequate protection for the vice president in addition to the that are already on board. mr. rankin. mr. secretary, excuse me. i think spaces may not be clear to all our readers. will you explain what that means? secretary dillon. twenty-five job positions. i think the thing that is very important here is to keep in mind that to keep one man on the job around the clock covering a post, which is the way the secret service works--one man that would be always with the president or the vice president, that would be always watching his house--to get one man requires five job positions. in the first place, the coverage required is for hours a day. in the second place, there are holidays, there are weekends off. on a full-time basis, the secret service works a -hour week, -day week, as the rest of the government does, and there are provisions for sickness and leave, and so forth. when the number of hours that a man can work a year full time is figured out, it requires men to fill one spot. so that is one reason why these protective numbers may seem rather high to the uninitiated. when you are talking about the vice president, and people are required to produce two posts, coverage of two posts, it is obviously not adequate because you have to cover his house, whether he is there or not, so that someone can't come in and put a destructive device in it. this simply can't be done with the present numbers that are assigned. then, going beyond this to complete this list, there is a request for agents in the field offices who would handle the substantially increased volume of security investigations. we are now getting about twice as many referrals already as we did before. instead of something like , , we are up to something over , , and they expect it will go over , next year. to really run these down out in the districts, they need, obviously, more men than they have had. now, one thing that they also need these fellows for, which i think is important, is keeping track of more dangerous individuals. they have tried to keep track of a few of them. but i think that probably a good many more should be put on that list. it requires more people, so they can periodically check up, and particularly before a visit, that all of these people are looked at to see where they are and what they have been doing recently before the president visits a particular place. mr. rankin. mr. secretary, while you are on that subject, could you explain to the commission how you make use of your agents in the white house duty and those in the field so they will understand that? secretary dillon. well, yes; the white house detail is composed of about people now. about half of these are what you might call, more or less, permanent employees. they have been there for a long time, years, years, years, on the white house detail. the other half are shorter time employees who generally serve up to years on the white house detail and then either leave because they prefer other duty in the secret service or sometimes leave because the secret service feels they can do other duty better. mr. rankin. now, for the protection of the president. mr. secretary, is there any need to have the white house detail have any connection or reciprocal arrangement with those in the field? secretary dillon. well, i think it is a great help. because of this turnover that i mentioned, very many of the agents in the field have had service in the white house detail of up to or years. so they know what the problems are and they are able to fit in very easily and very readily and very quickly with the white house detail which is with the president when he comes out on a trip. mr. dulles. by fieldwork you mean attached to your field stations, of which i believe there are in the united states? secretary dillon. yes; that is right. and if they had not had this training, obviously they would be enforcement officers and they could work with white house detail when they come out, but they wouldn't be able to be as cognizant of its procedures, how the matter is handled, and they wouldn't be able to be fitted right into the routine as well as they can presently. i think it is highly valuable that we have this pool of experienced people around the country and, of course, this is again one reason that if we get a few more people out there, we will be able to do better. one of the additional things that we are now undertaking, is, for instance, these building surveys that are partially a result of a study by the research analysis corp. this seems to be something that we can probably do something about. we will probably use more people when the president travels through a city than we have in the past because you can have some success in designating certain buildings as high risk or higher risk than other buildings, and as i say, they are now trying to map the whole united states, at least the major cities where the president might travel, the routes he might follow, coming in from an airport, going to a major stadium or something like that so they will know ahead of time what the danger spots are. and one of the obvious ones which has come out is a warehouse where there are not so many people in it and where someone could more likely be alone and therefore more dangerous. a building that is full of people is not as dangerous because the other people would be watching. it is that sort of criteria. the same thing about roof access. if there is easy access to a roof and people are not usually on it, that would be more dangerous than if there wasn't. mr. rankin. now, have you made quite a change in the secret service in regard to the inspection of buildings along a motorcade route since the assassination? secretary dillon. oh yes. we have been doing this, and we have used a great many more people as a result of this in our procedures, both local police officers and also our own people. the figures we have here are interesting. they are in this report. from february --i don't know why that was the beginning date for these figures--but from there through june , we used , hours of work by other enforcement agencies. about , of that came from the justice department and the rest of it from other treasury agencies, the biggest one being the intelligence section of the internal revenue, but also the bureau of narcotics, alcohol and tobacco tax unit and so on. mr. rankin. and that is in connection with this motorcade route? secretary dillon. that is largely in connection with that, both planning it out ahead and also stationing them in buildings that they thought might be difficult. mr. rankin. now, mr. secretary, returning to your planning document, is there anything else that you have not covered in that? secretary dillon. well, this is just the number of people. it does not include in this figure any purchases of automatic data processing equipment. it just includes the study i mentioned. there are funds for a new armored car, various funds for improving the intrusion detection at the white house, and lighting at the white house. there is no automatic system now. if anyone breaks through the fence at night, nobody knows it unless someone should see them. they have developed such systems and the secret service would like to get one installed, so if anyone broke through, a bell rings automatically, and they know someone is on the grounds, and they can take action accordingly. also, they would like emergency lighting that would be hidden behind various trees or behind the wall so that if someone broke through at a place, the lights would go on automatically and the person would be seen. then there is just miscellaneous equipment that goes with increased staff, such as automobiles, radios, travel and transportation that goes with more staff, and so forth. i mentioned some of the things briefly that they intend to do. i mentioned the prs program, and adp study. these special agents in the field i think we have covered pretty well. they have clearly in here a number of things they have to do, which there certainly is plenty of. in addition to that--i mentioned the pool. in addition to that we have made arrangements with the department of agriculture and the general services administration has put the funds in their budget, to get a new training facility. all we have now is a pistol range out at the arboretum, and this new one will have classrooms, pistol range, and a place where they can practice automotive protection on a practice road. this will be out at beltsville at the agricultural station out there. it is very useful. there are no funds for that in the plan. mr. mccloy. may i just ask you about the armored car, mr. secretary. is that to transport the president? secretary dillon. yes; that is right. a protected car, a second one. one was fixed for the government free by the ford motor co., but our guess is that it cost the ford motor co. somewhere between $ , and $ , to do this, and it didn't cost the secret service anything, although there was some research work done on the glass and armor by the defense department. this was combined with research work they needed for their own use, to develop protective glass and armor to use in helicopters in vietnam. they split the cost. it cost about $ , . so i think they assigned $ , of it to this project. but it was paid by the defense department. that is the only cost on that one. but i think the companies think that the government should buy the new car. mr. mccloy. we had some testimony here in connection with the assassination where it was developed that the access within the car to the body of the president became very important. in the car in which the president was assassinated there was a bar behind the front seat making it very difficult if not impossible for the secret service man who was operating from the front seat to get to the body of the president, and we were strongly of the view that cars that should be hereafter designed should have freedom of access. either the man should be in the jump seat or there should be means by which you could get, the secret service man could get to the body of the president in case of a threat of an attack, and i think it is likely we will mention that in the report. but it seemed to me this is something to bear in mind in connection with the design of a new armored car. secretary dillon. that would apply to an open car. mr. mccloy. yes. secretary dillon. it wouldn't apply i think to a fully---- mr. mccloy. fully armored; no. that is right. secretary dillon. closed car. mr. mccloy. usually on those motorcades you like to be seen. secretary dillon. yes. mr. rankin. have you covered your planning document, then, mr. secretary? secretary dillon. i think that covers this. mr. mccloy. may i ask a question at this point? i have a date at the white house at o'clock, not with the president, but with mr. bundy, who wants to talk with me. how long do you think we will be with the secretary and will we resume after lunch? mr. rankin. i was hoping to get through. i presume he was hoping we would. secretary dillon. i would like to if we could. i have to leave tomorrow to go to japan. mr. mccloy. well, would it interrupt you if i ask a few questions? mr. rankin. no; go ahead. the chairman. ask what questions you want? mr. mccloy. you testified, mr. secretary, you felt with these additions that the secret service would be competent to cope with the added requirements for the protection of the president which have occurred. in testifying to that effect, do you include--you include the investigative services of your own which are quite apart, as i understand it, from the information that you may gather from other agencies? secretary dillon. that is correct; yes. mr. mccloy. we have had the thought that perhaps the protective research section or division of your organization wasn't as well equipped as it should have been nor as it might have been presumably for the purely preventive investigative work. do you feel that with this new plan of yours, that that would, be adequately taken care of? secretary dillon. yes; i do. it was not equipped, i think, adequately in two ways. first, it did not, as is clearly shown by the events in dallas, receive information on enough dangerous people. at least, they didn't receive the information on lee oswald. so that what is required is the development of criteria, better criteria, that can be circulated to law enforcement agencies generally, and which will insure that adequate information comes in. we are making progress there. i think you have already seen a document with some criteria that were developed, which has been circulated in washington. a similar document has now been circulated by the secret service chief to all special agents asking them to write a briefer but somewhat similar letter to all chiefs of police, sheriffs, and state police in their localities which asks them to furnish any such information to the local secret service agent. that is being disseminated now throughout the country. it will be completed within the next weeks or so. in addition, we have established an interagency committee which has as one of its jobs the development of better criteria that will really result in getting the kind of information we want without swamping us. if we are too broad in our criteria and we get a million names, obviously nothing can work. this committee is holding its first formal meeting next week. it has representatives of the president's office of science and technology, of the department of defense, which is the advanced research projects outfit, of the cia, an individual who is highly competent in their file section and who understands the setting up of complex files and retrieval, that sort of business, and four people from prs, the prs head inspector, mr. thacker, the head of the research and development, mr. bouck, the head of the files section, mr. young, and mr. stoner, who is now handling the liaison job. there will also be, although the individual has not yet been named, a representative of the fbi, and with that i think that we will be able to develop criteria that will both be useful to us and be an improvement on criteria that was so far developed with the help of outside consultants. mr. mccloy. mr. secretary, the impression has been gained, i think, by the commission that perhaps too great emphasis has been directed to the mere investigation of the threat, of the particular individual, the crank, or the fellow that sends the poison food or the threatening letter, and perhaps not enough in a broader scope, recognizing, of course, that you can't be too broad without defeating your own purpose, but that there are perhaps groups or other areas of ferment that could provoke an attack quite without the threat. would you comment on that? secretary dillon. yes; one of the criteria that is presently out is meant to cover individuals who have threatened bodily harm to any high government official, with the idea that threat might be switched and visited upon the president. that would have worked in this particular case in dallas if that had been a specific criterion on at that time, which it wasn't. we are just talking about threats to the president. so i think that was one obvious case. we hope that this committee would be able to possibly come up with other groups that can be identified that would fit into this without bringing in too many names. there is one that may or may not work out. i just cite this as an example. people with bad conduct records in the marine corps for some reason have had a very bad record thereafter and there is quite a connection of crime with that class of individual. it may be that it would even be worthwhile, if it is not too large, to cover this. why that is so, nobody has quite figured out. i think the eye was focused on them because of this event in dallas, but then it was discovered that this group has been involved in an awful lot of other crimes of violence. mr. dulles. as you read the oswald life story, it looks as though he was going into the marines as a kind of escape. secretary dillon. it could have been. mr. dulles. what you say is very interesting in that connection. the chairman. will you excuse us just a moment until we see if we can finish up. secretary dillon. i would think you might want to put into the record at this point a copy of the memorandum that i mentioned from mr. rowley to the special agents asking them to send letters to the local law enforcement institutions. mr. rankin. yes. mr. secretary, i ask you to examine the memorandum dated august , from chief rowley and ask you if that, with the attachment, is the memorandum that you just described? secretary dillon. that is. fine. yes. mr. rankin. mr. chief justice, i ask leave to give this document that the secretary has just referred to the next number in order and offer it in evidence as part of this examination. the chairman. it may be admitted. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. -c, for identification and received in evidence.) secretary dillon. there is one other item--you asked whether there is anything else in general. we felt that the secret service did not have adequate regularized scientific advice. they got some--they have been getting it over the years from time to time from the president's office of science and technology, but we tried to regularize that. i have worked out an arrangement with dr. hornig and written him a letter which embodies that arrangement so that they would have their services constantly available to the secret service and would give certain specific advice; first, keeping the secret service informed of scientific developments of possible use in providing protection for the president, etc.; advising or arranging for scientific advice to the secret service in connection with specific problems of presidential protection as they may arise; and reviewing the technical aspects of the protective operations of the secret service and its development program, and assisting it in establishing priorities and schedules for introducing technical and scientific improvements. i have an answer from dr. hornig saying they would be glad to carry this out and saying that he concurs in my judgment that the increasingly complex nature of presidential protection requires that the secret service have access to the best scientific advice and that they are glad to take on this job. mr. rankin. mr. secretary, i will ask you if the exchange of letters, dated august , between you and mr. hornig are the copies that i have just given you? secretary dillon. that is right. mr. rankin. mr. chief justice, i ask leave---- mr. dulles. just for the record, i wonder if he would identify mr. hornig. i think we know, but possibly---- secretary dillon. oh, yes; dr. hornig is special assistant to the president for science and technology. mr. rankin. mr. chief justice, i ask leave to give this document the next number in order and offer it in evidence as part of the examination. the chairman. it might be admitted. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit -d for identification, and was received in evidence.) mr. rankin. mr. secretary, would you just briefly tell us without getting into any classified matters or matters that are not properly to be revealed because of the effects they might have on the protection of the president, why the secret service would need a scientific adviser? secretary dillon. well, i think this is because they do a number of things. first, they need it in the communications field. there are all sorts of advances there, and they have been assuring or working to assure the security of the communications of the president. in addition there are all sorts of new developments in the form of protective devices that are being developed all the time, better forms of bulletproof glass, better forms of protection of that kind, new types of protection against access. for instance, there is under development, i understand, a sort of a radar type of fence so that you can see if a person comes through a certain area without there being any fence there. they are developing, working on the development of other protection devices. they have had very substantial progress recently, i understand, in the detection of weapons that someone might be carrying, devices that are more effective. this is something people have tried to develop, i guess, for a long time. apparently they are having some success. it is that sort of thing that is very necessary. and then in addition this field of computer technology is highly scientific and complex, and i think that the scientific adviser is in an excellent position to be sure that the secret service has the very best advice in trying to identify their needs and develop the machines for those needs. mr. rankin. mr. secretary, it has been suggested to the commission that it might be of assistance to you and other secretaries of the treasury and the secret service to have someone acting as special assistant to the secretary of the treasury, having supervision, under your direction, of the secret service in its various activities, both protection of the president and otherwise. do you think that that would be of help or would it not? secretary dillon. well, i am not sure. you see, we have an assistant secretary, and i should think he probably would be able to do it as adequately as having another special assistant. we also have a special assistant for law enforcement coordination who coordinates the general work of all our law enforcement agencies and works with outside agencies on overall law enforcement problems. probably of interest is that the treasury department, i think, has more law enforcement officials working for it than any other agency of government. it is a very large law enforcement organization, although there are a number of separate organizations that work in different fields. so we already have this. i think that it probably can be made tighter and should be made tighter. one aspect of this matter, i think, is the advent of computers, of course, which is very recent and has changed what can be done effectively in this prs. i think that should be done anyway. one aspect of this matter that probably hasn't had as close and detailed supervision as we may feel appropriate now is the white house detail. it has always operated over the years in very close contact with the president and has operated in a slightly different manner with different presidents, depending on their wishes. and it has been felt that as long as they were doing an adequate job, that it was pretty hard to come in and tell them exactly what they should do on a day-by-day basis because the president might not want them to do that sort of thing. it is a very complex and personal assignment here that is a little different than any other law enforcement agency, and i certainly think it should be followed more closely--gone into in more detail--from the top level of the treasury department probably than it has, but even if it is, we are still going to have this problem that we won't be able to tell the president exactly what he should do in each case. so there never will be that close sort of supervision of day-to-day operations of the white house detail--it wouldn't be effective anyway--that there would be in another police operation. mr. rankin. after the assassination, you did have mr. carswell take over certain work in this area, did you not? secretary dillon. yes; mr. carswell is my special assistant, in my own office. he is a lawyer by profession and training. he has had investigative experience, years in naval intelligence on the active side of it, and so he has some knowledge of this whole type of operation, and i felt in view of this investigation, in view of the work that had been done, it was important to have someone with legal experience that was close to me, that had immediate access any minute to me working on the matter. then while this thing was running along, they would get to me at any time, and i could ask questions, they would bring matters to me, we could handle this matter of being sure that a proper long-range plan was developed, and that the whole effort in the secret service was organized as well as possible. that is why i asked mr. carswell, as part of his work for me, to undertake this special assignment, which he has done, and i think done very well. mr. rankin. it has been suggested to the commission that it might be helpful if the national security council or some cabinet level committee would help to supervise in this area of presidential protection. do you have any comments you care to make? secretary dillon. yes; i think that would be helpful because in relationship with the president, if there are questions of what is the proper protection, i think a group of the cabinet would have a stronger voice, and also having a group, the president would be more sure that this was not just one man's ideas, that it would be helpful. i am not quite sure about the national security council as such because as i recall, the president himself is the chairman of that, so he would be advising himself, and i suppose this would be a group to advise the president. mr. dulles. we thought there might be certain advantages in that because if you prescribe things for the president to do, and he doesn't want to do them, they don't get done in the field of protection. secretary dillon. that is right. then if you describe it in the meeting at which he was present, that might be well. the chairman. i suppose, mr. secretary, also if a committee of that kind was composed of the secretary of the treasury, secretary of defense, secretary of state, and the attorney general, that you would have on that committee the men who had all of the agencies that would of necessity have to be coordinated in order to bring all the work into focus. secretary dillon. yes, and the central intelligence agency. the chairman. yes. secretary dillon. one thing about the national security council is that neither the secretary of the treasury nor the attorney general are members of the national security council by law. the secretary of the treasury has been asked by the presidents to sit with the national security council for some years, practically since its beginning. the attorney general has sat with it during the last few years, but i don't know whether that will or will not continue into the future. so there is a certain problem there. if this assignment is given by law to the national security council, and some other president comes along that doesn't ask the secretary of the treasury or the attorney general to sit with it, the two people who are probably most concerned wouldn't have any part in this. mr. dulles. it would have to provide that in all matters relating to presidential security, of course, they will be present. one way of doing it, i would say. secretary dillon. yes; there should be some such provision; otherwise i see some advantages as you say. mr. rankin. mr. secretary, are you familiar with the method of selection of the secret service personnel? secretary dillon. only somewhat. they do get young men who meet their qualifications. they do hire them at gs- and they stay there for year. if they have a year of satisfactory service, they are promoted two grades. then if they have more years of satisfactory service, they are promoted another double jump to gs- . these individuals do not have the legal qualifications that some other law enforcement agencies such as the fbi require, where you have to be a lawyer or an accountant, because they do other kinds of investigative work and that wasn't thought to be necessary in the case of the secret service. but the secret service has felt, and i have inquired into this, that they have no difficulty in getting young men of the highest type to come and to take these jobs under the present setup. mr. rankin. do you have a printed or written list of the various qualifications that you seek in regard to the secret service? secretary dillon. i don't--i am not aware of that. there probably is such a list; yes. mr. rankin. if you have such a list will you please supply it to us? secretary dillon. yes; i will be glad to. mr. rankin. mr. chief justice, i would like to ask leave to give the next number of exhibits to that document once supplied and make it part of the record. the chairman. it may be admitted. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. -e for identification and received in evidence.) mr. rankin. mr. secretary, are you familiar in a general way with the investigation that the commission has been making with regard to this matter? secretary dillon. yes; in a general way, i have followed it through mr. carswell, who has followed it more closely, and through the secret service, so i am generally aware of it. mr. rankin. and are you generally aware of the investigation in connection with the assassination, the entire matter? secretary dillon. oh, yes. mr. rankin. have you made any inquiry in the secret service to determine whether or not lee harvey oswald was ever an agent of that service? secretary dillon. yes. i heard rumors of this type of thing very early, and i asked the direct question of chief rowley and was informed that he never had any connection with the secret service. mr. rankin. do you know of any evidence in regard to lee harvey oswald being an agent of any part of the government? secretary dillon. i am not aware of any evidence myself in that way, but i don't think i necessarily would be fully competent in that. mr. rankin. but you have never heard of any such evidence? secretary dillon. i have never heard it. mr. rankin. do you know of any area of the investigation of the commission that you would like to suggest that we do more than we have insofar as you are familiar with it? secretary dillon. no. as far as i know, the investigation has been very thorough. mr. rankin. do you know of any credible evidence that would lead you or anyone to believe that there was a conspiracy, foreign or domestic, involved in the assassination of president kennedy? secretary dillon. no. from all the evidence i have seen, this was the work of one deranged individual. mr. rankin. and who would that be? secretary dillon. lee harvey oswald. mr. rankin. do you know of any evidence in regard to any connection between jack ruby and lee harvey oswald? secretary dillon. no, no. mr. rankin. is there anything that you would like to call to the attention of the commission at this time that we should know or that we should cover? secretary dillon. no; i think we have covered my area of competence pretty thoroughly this morning. i can't think of anything else. the chairman. mr. dulles? mr. dulles. doug, in the field that in the commission here we have described as the preventive intelligence field; that is, trying to identify beforehand the individuals or the type of individuals who might be a danger to the president, have you ever thought of any possible division of responsibility and of work between the secret service and the fbi to define more clearly which each should do in that field? secretary dillon. well, my own feeling is that the agency that handles the actual work of deciding who the individuals are that the secret service should watch out for, which is the prs, would function much better and would strengthen the service if it works as it does now as part of the whole secret service operation, and working very closely with the people who are on the white house detail and not having to be involved in a liaison operation somewhere else. so i think our problem is to strengthen this prs, and i think that this long-range plan is a good beginning. i don't think it is necessarily an end because as soon as we develop the automated machinery that we need, then we will know a little better, and we may need some people to make full use of that. but this is enough to get it underway and all you can use, i think, well, for that purpose at present. i would think that there is a liaison problem which exists whenever you have liaison with anyone, whether it is within your department or without, as long as it is a separate organization. and i think there has been clearly a problem of inadequate liaison with other government agencies. it is much better now. we have already taken steps. and additional steps of assigning specific liaison officers will help. but i think this is something that has just got to be worked out continually at all levels to make it work. so the problem is not unique to this situation; it affects all intergovernmental relations. mr. dulles. today with the communist party and with rightist groups and we have more and more groups--we have always had them, but we seem to have more than others which might breed up elements of danger--is there any part of that you would like to turn over to anybody else or---- secretary dillon. well, i think the identification of groups that are likely to be dangerous as groups would probably more likely fall on the fbi because they study the background of these groups and they are aware of them and try to penetrate them, and so forth. so i think that from that point of view, they would certainly be the purveyor, the first purveyor of the information that is needed and the ones who would have the responsibility of signaling to the secret service that this is a dangerous group and to the best of our knowledge these are its members. some of the members would probably be subterranean and might not be known. and it would be important that they pass on that information on the individuals. the secret service i think would be more concerned in dealing with--trying to protect against the actual individuals. i think that probably on the basis of thinking of something that would be sort of an international plot, communist party plot, or something like that, i think you probably need all arms of the government working on that. we can't say that secret service can do it alone. central intelligence agency might get wind of it anywhere in the world or fbi would have to use all its resources. just to beat back something like that you would need the combined resources of whatever you have got. i think there is sort of a greater thrust of continuing responsibility obviously on the fbi for following these groups, as you call them. for following individuals which may come to their notice because they were somewhat deranged or did something bad at one time, they would then pass that on to the secret service, and with adequate manpower, i think that the secret service would have more or less the primary responsibility of following those sort of individuals. the chairman. i suppose you wouldn't want to take away from the secret service entirely the concern that it might have for groups? secretary dillon. oh, no. the chairman. and the necessity of going into those groups to ascertain further whether they were a threat to the president? secretary dillon. yes; but i don't think it is their function to try, for instance, to have undercover people to penetrate groups or do things of that nature which the fbi generally does. the chairman. yes. secretary dillon. and it is their job to do that. that would require, of course, a much larger organization, but i certainly think the service has to keep track of them, and they can't just say we have no interest and everything must come from somewhere else. i don't mean that at all. but that is not their primary responsibility. i thought that is what mr. dulles' view of it was. the chairman. anything more? mr. dulles. mr. secretary, just one other question. it raises the question of the combination of the--in the secret service of the two functions of presidential protection and of the counterfeiting and related investigatory duties in connection with counterfeiting. have you got any comments on that? is that a logical or wise combination or would you suggest any change there? secretary dillon. well, these are two separate functions. i do think that there is a certain advantage to it that has developed and which i think should be maintained. that comes from the fact that counterfeiting is not an operation that is overly large; so it means that people who are engaged in this can very well be trained. many have had tours such as earlier in the white house detail. mr. dulles. you transfer back and forth, do you, from these two functions? secretary dillon. oh, yes; many of the people after a little service in the white house detail find that life too strenuous, the hours bad, or prefer not to travel, and so forth, prefer the type of work that opens up in the counterfeiting section. then they move out into one of the field offices, and there are probably a few more possibilities as heads of these fields offices for higher level jobs than there would be in the white house detail. so there is an interchange. now, that interchange, i think, is useful because you do have these field offices that you can then call upon to do protective work, and i think there can be much more of that because, as what i indicated earlier, with this development of more detailed criteria, the greater number of people coming in to check up on, there are going to be more investigations in the field that should be done by the secret service, and it can be done by these people who have had this training and who know what to look for and who have worked on this same sort of assignment. they also are readily available and fit right into the pattern of presidential protection when the president goes to their area. so i think that is another great advantage. so therefore i think there is substantial advantage by having this additional assignment which is in a different area, counterfeiting. i think it is probable happenstance; it grew that way. it could have been in some other different area, but the size of it which is large enough but not too large i think combines very well with the white house detail to give us a possibility of making a very effective operation. mr. dulles. do i correctly assume from what you have said that initially your field offices were largely organized for the counterfeiting side of the work but that is now changing, and more and more the work of the field office is coming into the presidential protection? secretary dillon. well, i think certainly the amount that they will be doing on presidential protection has greatly increased. the counterfeiting hasn't decreased. that has increased also. but whereas earlier i think they were only used in presidential protection when they had to be, when they were pulled off their other jobs and brought to washington and sent to travel on a trip or something like that, because extra people were needed, i think now if we get an adequate staff they will be doing more of this as a regular routine part of their job, investigating people in their areas as well as investigating counterfeit cases in their area. so they will have more or less two permanent jobs to do. the chairman. while you may have had a decrease in counterfeiting, i suppose you have had a great increase in forgeries, haven't you? secretary dillon. yes; we have had an increase i said in counterfeiting and also in forgeries. the chairman. oh, in counterfeiting. i misunderstood you. i thought you said you had a decrease. secretary dillon. no; a great increase in counterfeiting on account of development of these methods of photography. the chairman. yes; i recall now. secretary dillon. that is similar to check forgery which is the same problem on government checks which has also increased. mr. dulles. that is all i have, mr. chief justice. the chairman. very well. thank you very much, mr. secretary. before we adjourn, i would like to say to you, mr. secretary, that the secret service has been most cooperative ever since this commission was formed. it has been very attentive to our every wish and has been very helpful throughout. we appreciate it very much indeed. secretary dillon. thank you, mr. chief justice. the chairman. also, we appreciate the very fine work which the internal revenue agents did in making a study of reconstructing income of persons involved in the investigation and the other assistance that the agents gave in connection with our work. [in connection with the testimony of secretary dillon the commission requested and received additional information on secret service budget requests for the fiscal years through . the document containing the information was marked as commission exhibit no. -f for identification and received in evidence.] we will adjourn now. (whereupon, at : p.m., the president's commission adjourned.) _sunday, september , _ testimony of mrs. lee harvey oswald resumed the president's commission met at : p.m., on september , , at the u.s. naval air station, dallas, tex. present were senator richard russell, presiding; senator john sherman cooper, and congressman hale boggs, members. also present were j. lee rankin, general counsel; dean r. g. storey, special counsel to the attorney general of texas; leon i. gopadze and peter p. gregory, interpreters; and john joe howlett, secret service agent. [note.--the witness, mrs. lee harvey oswald, having been previously sworn in these proceedings, testified through the interpreters as shown in this transcript as follows: *translation is by mr. paul d. gregory, interpreter; **translation is by mr. leon i. gopadze, interpreter. where the answer or a paragraph shown as part of an answer has no asterisk, the answer is by the witness herself without the use of the interpreters.] mr. rankin. senator russell, will you swear the witness? senator russell. since she is already under oath in this hearing, i assume that oath will carry over? mr. rankin. all right. senator russell. you understand that you have been sworn?* mr. rankin. mr. gregory, have you been sworn in connection with these proceedings? mr. gregory. no. senator russell. will you do it, mr. rankin? mr. rankin. will you rise and raise your right hand. do you solemnly swear that the testimony that you are going to translate of mrs. oswald will be truly translated? mr. gregory. to the best of my knowledge and ability, so help me god. mr. rankin. mr. gopadze, have you been sworn as a translator in these proceedings? mr. gopadze. no, sir. mr. rankin. will you rise, please? do you solemnly swear that your translation of anything of the testimony of mrs. oswald will be true and correct, to the best of your knowledge? mr. gopadze. i do. mr. rankin. thank you. mrs. oswald, we're going to ask you rather informally a number of questions about matters that have come up that we would like to get your testimony about. senator russell will start, then senator cooper will have some, and then i'll have a few i would like to ask you about, and representative boggs will have some. representative boggs. i suggest we designate senator russell as chairman of this meeting. mr. rankin. will you record senator russell, miss reporter, as the chairman of the meeting, please? the reporter. yes, sir. dean storey. this is miss oliver. she is the reporter to judge hughes, a federal judge here. mr. rankin. yes; we know her well by her reporting in other matters for us. senator russell. mrs. oswald, there may be some repetition in what we say, in the testimony that was taken in washington, because, i among others, could not attend that hearing, so you will understand if we ask questions that are similar to those that were asked of you when you were in washington on other occasions.* we will try to avoid any more of that than we can help. i have read all of your testimony. i don't mean that i recall all of it, but i read it, as well as your memoirs that were submitted to the commission. when you first met lee oswald, did he ever mention anything about politics or his political philosophy?* *mrs. oswald. no. senator russell. did you ever ask him his reason for coming to russia?* *mrs. oswald. not the first evening when we got acquainted. senator russell. prior to the time that you were married to him, did you ask him his reasons for coming to russia?* *mrs. oswald. yes. senator russell. why did he say that he had come to russia?* *mrs. oswald. he told me that the soviet union is the outstanding communist country and he wanted to see it with his own eyes. senator russell. well, i notice in your testimony that you said that his memoirs insofar as he claimed that he wished to be a citizen of the soviet union were erroneous?* in other words, i want to continue the statement so there won't be any confusion--i'm not trying to trap her. but that he told you that he had been offered citizenship in the soviet union and had declined?* ** **mrs. oswald. yes. *yes, that's what he said to me. senator russell. did he give any reasons why he declined citizenship in the soviet union?* *mrs. oswald. the reason he gave me for declining to become a soviet citizen was because he said that in case he did not like the way they do things in the soviet union, it would be easier for him to leave the country than if he did become a citizen. senator russell. after you were married to lee, did he complain about the way they did things in the soviet union?* ** mrs. oswald. what? mr. gregory. senator, excuse me, sir. i'm a little mixed up on your question. would you mind to repeat that question, sir? senator russell. did he ever, after their marriage, complain about conditions as he found them in the soviet union, or the way they did things in the soviet union? i believe that was the word you said she used.* *mrs. oswald. yes; he did. senator russell. what was the subject of his complaint?* *mrs. oswald. he did not like his job. he did not like the wage scale that they paid him, not only for him but for people that were engaged in the same line of work. *then, he was unhappy about the restrictions that his movements were subjected to, being a noncitizen of the soviet union. every months he was obliged to report--every months or every so often---- senator russell. periodically? *mrs. oswald. periodically, he had to report to a certain government institution, where they would extend his permit of residence. senator russell. were there any other restrictions on his movements? if he had reported duly as he was required, could he have gone down to kharkov or any other place that he might have wished to go? * ** *mrs. oswald. of course, in addition to restrictions imposed on his movements, there were other things that he was dissatisfied with in the soviet union. senator russell. do you care to give any of those?* *mrs. oswald. he was dissatisfied with high prices for everything that he had to pay. he was dissatisfied with the quarters, living quarters that he had. senator russell. do you know whether or not he had any friends that he made there in minsk while he was living there?* *mrs. oswald. yes. senator russell. did most of them work in the same plant where he did or did he make other friends out in the community?* *mrs. oswald. he had many acquaintances that worked in the same place, but he had no friends. he had two friends at work, in other words, closer than acquaintances--friends--those that i know personally. senator russell. but none other than those that worked there in the same plant?* *mrs. oswald. there was one young man who was a friend of his, which did not work in the same plant, but was a student at the medical college. senator russell. did lee go to school while he was there in minsk? did he do any studying in any of the institutes? mrs. oswald. no. senator russell. he did not. *mrs. oswald. lee wanted to attend patrice lumumba institute in moscow but his application was turned down. he was very much put out, because he told me that one of the main reasons he came to the soviet union was to get education. he said that after his application was turned down. he told that to me after his application was turned down. senator russell. was that before or after you were married? mrs. oswald. after. senator russell. now, in reading your testimony, mrs. oswald, i noticed that you referred to a number of foreign students who attended the institutes in minsk, including, i believe you said, a number of cubans. do you know whether or not lee oswald was acquainted with any of those cubans?* *mrs. oswald. i have never met these cuban friends of his, but i do know that he and erich; erich is the medical student previously referred to, they had cuban friends. what they were talking about, i do not know. i have never met him. lee was interested in cuba and in cuban affairs, but i don't know anything in detail, just through conversations. senator russell. do you know whether he had any cuban friends here in texas or in new orleans after he came back from russia? mrs. oswald. no. [nodding a negative response.] senator russell. you don't know whether he did or not? mrs. oswald. no; i don't think he had. senator russell. you don't think he did. now, you referred to the fact in your testimony about his joining some gun club or rifle club in minsk?* *mrs. oswald. yes. senator russell. and he purchased, i believe, a rifle or he had a rifle? *mrs. oswald. by the time we got married, he already owned a rifle and he already was a member of a gun club in minsk. senator russell. from your testimony i gathered that he was not very active in the gun club in carrying on with his rifle?* *mrs. oswald. no. he never went hunting except once during all the time that we lived in minsk. senator russell. did he ever discuss with you his desire to meet any high official with the soviet government?* ** *mrs. oswald. no. senator russell. he never did?* *mrs. oswald. no. senator russell. do you know whether or not he carried on any correspondence? mrs. oswald. excuse me---- *the only instance i recall--when we filed an application for our returning to the united states, he visited some colonel, some soviet colonel, aksenov [spelling] a-k-s-e-n-o-v, in order to expedite the exit visas for us. i also visited this colonel aksenov. mrs. oswald. i'm sorry---- *correction. he never got to see colonel aksenov because when he went to discuss this question in the--whatever office that was--he talked to some junior officer, and they would not let him have an audience with the colonel. senator russell. did you go to see the colonel likewise? mrs. oswald. yes. senator russell. you were both there together? *mrs. oswald. we never got to see him. i saw colonel aksenov later on. senator russell. was he a colonel in the army or in the militia or in the police or just what? where did he get his rank?* *mrs. oswald. he was a colonel in the mvd, which is the administer of internal affairs. senator russell. he had to do then with the passports. his recommendation would have had to have been had with the passports?* *mrs. oswald. i think so. i do not know definitely, but that meeting was in the ministry of internal affairs. he was not dressed in a military uniform. senator russell. had you known the colonel prior to that time?* *mrs. oswald. no; he introduced himself as colonel aksenov. mr. gregory. when? *mrs. oswald. when i talked to him concerning these documents for exit visas. even if he were in a uniform, i would not have known what the insignia meant. senator russell. if you didn't know him prior to that time, why is it you got to see him and lee could not visit him?* *mrs. oswald. when lee went to see colonel aksenov in regard to the exit visas and other documents, he could not see the colonel. then, on another later occasion, i went to see the colonel and they let me see him, on a later occasion. senator russell. but you don't know why?* mrs. oswald (no response). senator russell. did any of your friends or relatives intercede with the colonel in your behalf?* *mrs. oswald. my uncle works in the mvd, but i'm sure that he did not discuss this matter of exit visas with colonel aksenov because i think he would have been afraid to talk about it. when my uncle knew that lee and i were planning to go back to the united states, my uncle was afraid for his own job and for his own welfare. senator russell. i knew you testified before that he did not want you to come to the united states, that your uncle did not, but he was working in the same line of work as this colonel was?* mrs. oswald. in the same building, but not in the same department. i believe that colonel aksenov knew my uncle. senator russell. yes; but you didn't testify before, i believe, that your uncle would have been afraid to have helped you. you did testify that he did not want you to leave russia? that's the way i recall it. i could be in error about that--do you know why he was afraid? why should he have been afraid for you to leave russia?* *mrs. oswald. my uncle never told me personally that he was afraid that something might happen to him if i went to america, but his wife, my aunt, confided in me that my uncle was afraid for his job and for his well-being if i went to america. senator russell. what rank did your uncle hold in the mvd? if this man was a colonel, what was your uncle, was he a colonel or a major or what?* *mrs. oswald. my uncle has a degree in forestry, but he is also a colonel in mvd. every employee has to be in the service, in the military service. he has a degree in forestry, but he is also a colonel in mvd. senator russell. he also has the rank of a colonel in the mvd?* mrs. oswald. no. he is the head of the forestry department in mvd. i don't know what he is doing there. senator russell. did you ever have any occasion or know any other russian wife of a foreigner who tried to leave russia?* *mrs. oswald. mrs. zeger. mrs. zeger and her husband lived in argentina for years---- senator russell. well, you testified very fully about them. but i am asking now if you know of any russian national or citizen who was married to a foreign national who ever was able to get a visa to leave from russia? *mrs. oswald. no; i don't know--i don't know of anyone. i only heard in the american embassy in moscow, where i heard of a russian woman married to an american, who had difficulty leaving the country. senator russell. well, that's what i had in mind. *mrs. oswald. therefore, to the very last moment we did not believe that they would let us out of the soviet union. senator russell. did they examine you very much or ask you many questions about why you wished to leave, other than the fact that your husband decided to return to the united states?* mrs. oswald. no. *no. we only filled out a proper questionnaire containing a statement that this will be a permanent residence in the united states, or leaving the soviet union for permanent residence in the united states. senator russell. and none of the officials or police examined you at all about your reason for wishing to leave?* *mrs. oswald. it's very surprising, but nobody did. senator russell. do you know as to whether or not lee corresponded with any of his friends in russia after he came back to this country?* mrs. oswald. yes. *he did. mrs. oswald. with mr. and mrs. zeger. *with mr. and mrs. zeger, and erich; the medical student. i don't recall the medical student, and pavel golovachev. senator russell. paul--he was one of your old boy friends, wasn't he? mrs. oswald. paul? senator russell. i thought one of them was named paul?* mrs. oswald (no response). senator russell. did he correspond very frequently?* *mrs. oswald. not often. senator russell. did you write very often to your family and friends in russia?* *mrs. oswald. i wrote several letters shortly after we came to america, but i never received any answer. i also wrote to some of my colleagues where i worked. senator russell. in minsk? mrs. oswald. and shortly after that, my aunt wrote me. then i understood that perhaps the letters i wrote my aunt never reached her. senator russell. she did not refer to your letters when she wrote to you?* *mrs. oswald. no; the only thing that she wrote, she was glad to get--that she learned my address. senator russell. did she say how she learned it? that was my next question?* *mrs. oswald. the supervisory of a drugstore, an apothecary---- senator russell. an apothecary? *mrs. oswald. or manager of a drugstore telephoned my aunt and told her she received a letter from me. senator russell. but she did not answer that letter, or if she did, you didn't receive it? mrs. oswald. no--she answered this letter. senator russell. i understand, but the friend in the apothecary, did he answer?* mrs. oswald. no. senator russell. now, in some of your testimony you referred to a time when you became somewhat piqued with lee about something and wrote one of your old friends there and forgot to put the stamp or didn't know that the stamps had been increased--you recall that testimony, do you not? mrs. oswald. yes. senator russell. did you write to any of your other friends there and put the proper stamps on them?* *mrs. oswald. no; this was the only letter i wrote. senator russell. the only one you wrote? *mrs. oswald. this was the only letter i wrote after i found out the proper postage required for mailing letters. after that, my aunt never wrote me. senator russell. have you corresponded with your uncle or aunt at any time since this great tragedy?* *mrs. oswald. yes; i did. senator russell. and did you receive any reply? mrs. oswald. no. senator russell. have you written them more than once since this great tragedy?* *mrs. oswald. i don't remember exactly whether i did or not. senator russell. but you've written them at least once without receiving a reply? *mrs. oswald. i remember well that i wrote at least once, maybe it was twice or three times, but i don't remember. senator russell. has any official of the russian government communicated with you since this great tragedy?* *mrs. oswald. no; no one ever communicated with me from the soviet embassy or any other representative of the soviet government, and i felt rather bad about it, because there i was--all alone in a strange country and i did not receive any encouragement from anyone. they didn't approach me even as a show of interest in my well-being. senator russell. you didn't even hear from them with reference to your application for visas to return to russia, although you had heard from them prior to the time lee was killed?* ** *mrs. oswald. not after lee was killed. senator russell. now, if i've understood it from reading your testimony, mrs. oswald, lee went to mexico from new orleans a day or two after mrs. paine brought you back to texas, is that right? *mrs. oswald. i do not know definitely, but i believe mrs. paine and i left one day before he went to mexico. senator russell. he had talked to you about going to mexico, had he not?* *mrs. oswald. yes; he had told me he was going to mexico. senator russell. and he had told you that he intended to visit the russian embassy and the cuban consulate while he was there? mrs. oswald. yes. senator russell. and that was at a time when he was very anxious to get to cuba, i believe? mrs. oswald. yes. senator russell. when was it, mrs. oswald, that lee told you he thought it was best for you to go back to russia, as to time? i know you testified he told you that, but was that after the walker case or before the walker case? * *mrs. oswald. i believe it was before he made the attempt on general walker's life. it may be that i stated it differently in my deposition, but i believe it was before. lee insisted on my returning to the soviet union before the attempt on walker's life. senator russell. i gather from your evidence, mrs. oswald, that lee was a very devoted husband, unusually so for an american husband, even though you had little spats at times. do you think that he advised you that because he thought something was going to happen that would involve the family in difficulties?* mrs. oswald. no. senator russell. you don't think so? *mrs. oswald. no; he was not a good husband. i may have said so in my deposition, but if i did, it was when i was in a state of shock. senator russell. you not only said so in your deposition, mrs. oswald, but you testified in your testimony before the commission several times that he was a very good husband and he was very devoted to you, and that when he was at home and not employed that he did a great deal of the housework and in looking after the children? *mrs. oswald. well, i also testified to the fact that he beat me on many occasions, so some of the statements i made regarding him were good and some were bad. senator russell. in other words, some of them were not true that you made?* *mrs. oswald. no; everything was true. senator russell. everything was true? mrs. oswald. yes. *i made statements in the record that he was good when he did housework and washed the floors and was good to the baby, and again, he was not good when he beat me and was insolent. senator russell. did he beat you on many occasions?* *mrs. oswald. rather--many. senator russell. well, you only testified to one, did you not, before the commission?* *mrs. oswald. i was rather embarrassed to discuss this before the commission, but he beat me on more than on one occasion. senator russell. and you stated at that time that you bruise very readily and that's the reason you had such a bad black eye? did you not testify to that?* ** *mrs. oswald. yes. senator russell. was that true or not true?* *mrs. oswald. it is true--it is--whatever i said. senator russell. it is true that you bruise easily, but that was just one of many occasions he had beat you?* *mrs. oswald. on one occasion; yes. senator russell. but you didn't testify to the others, did you? *mrs. oswald. i think i testified only about one particular occasion that i was asked about, whether he beat me or not, and i replied that he did, but he beat me on more than one occasion. senator russell. did he ever fail to provide for you and the children?* mrs. oswald. no---- *while he never earned too much, but when he had the job and earned, say, around $ a month, we never had any particular need of anything. however, lee was so frugal, not only frugal, but he kept part of the money in his own possession all the time that was not available for the family. senator russell. you always had plenty to eat and the children had plenty to wear? mrs. oswald. not really. we were never hungry, but we didn't have much. we were never too hungry, but we never had any plentitude. we never had too much, and i wanted--i always wanted this and that, but that was not available. senator russell. but he never made a great deal of money, did he?* *mrs. oswald. i marvel now how we managed to live on what he earned at that time in comparison with what i have now. we spent $ or $ a week at that time. we spent $ or $ a week at that time--you know, we can live--that was for milk and so on. senator russell. he didn't spent any money on himself, did he, he wasn't extravagant in his own habits? he didn't spend his money on clothes or whisky or women or things of that kind, did he? mrs. oswald. oh, no. he told--somebody told about jack ruby--he went to his nightclub, he never did go to nightclub. senator russell. well, i mean just extravagance in his own habits--he was frugal in his own eating habits, he didn't eat much when he was away from home, did he? mrs. oswald. no. senator russell. you knew where he kept his money in your home, did you not?* *mrs. oswald. he had a black wallet, but i never ventured into it. senator russell. did he not tell you to take some of the money out of the wallet at one time and buy some clothes for the children and yourself? mrs. oswald. no. mr. gopadze. pardon--you don't understand the question?** *mrs. oswald. yes; he did. it was the morning before the tragedy. senator russell. before the assassination of the president? *mrs. oswald. yes. senator russell. did he ever talk to you about the result of his visit to mexico? *mrs. oswald. yes. senator russell. did he say his efforts were all a failure there, that he got any assistance that he was seeking?* *mrs. oswald. he told me that he visited the cuban embassy and the soviet embassy and that they have the same bureaucracy in the cuban embassy that they have in the soviet embassy and that he obtained no results. senator russell. did you have less money in the united states than you had in russia when you were married over there? *mrs. oswald. we had more money in the united states than we did in the soviet union, but here we have to pay $ a month rent from $ earned, and we didn't have to do that in the soviet union. here the house rent amounted to percent of total wages earned, while in the soviet union we paid percent of the wages earned. then, all the medical expenses, medical assistance--expenses are paid there. however, lee didn't spend much money on medical expenses here because he found ways to get the expenses free; the services free. senator russell. you have testified, i believe, that lee didn't use his rifle much, the one he had in the soviet union. did he ever discuss shooting anyone in the soviet union like he did in shooting nixon and walker here in this country?* *mrs. oswald. no; not in the soviet union. senator russell. you haven't then heard from anyone except one letter from your aunt, since you left russia?* *mrs. oswald. no; i received letters from my girl friend. senator russell. oh, how many letters from your girl friend? mrs. oswald. just from one--a christmas card--i don't remember how many, probably not more than four or five. *but only one letter from the aunt. *mrs. oswald. we received letters from lee's friends written to both of us--several letters. senator russell. written to you? mrs. oswald. written to lee and to me. senator russell. i see, but it's strange about your family that you didn't hear from them when you had written to them?* *mrs. oswald. it is strange and it's hurtful. senator russell. mrs. oswald, i believe you testified that lee didn't ever discuss political matters with you very much? * *mrs. oswald. he discussed politics with me very little. senator russell. and that when he was discussing political matters with mr. paine and mr. de mohrenschildt and others, that you didn't pay any attention, that they didn't address any of it to you, that they discussed it between themselves?* *mrs. oswald. no; i did not participate in those conversations. senator russell. and that he didn't discuss a great many things about his work and things of that kind with you?* *mrs. oswald. the only time he discussed his work with me was when he worked for a printing company. he told me that he liked that job. senator russell. why do you suppose he told you about the fact that he was going to shoot mr. nixon and had shot at general walker?* *mrs. oswald. as regards general walker, he came home late. he left me a note and so that is the reason why he discussed the walker affair with me. *now, in regard to mr. nixon, he got dressed up in his suit and he put a gun in his belt. senator russell. you testified in his belt--i was going to ask about that, because that was a very unusual place to carry a gun. usually, he would carry it in his coat. did you ever see him have a gun in his belt before?* *mrs. oswald. no; i would have noticed it if he did. senator russell. you wouldn't have noticed it? *mrs. oswald. i would have noticed it if he did. senator russell. i see--you would have noticed it. *mrs. oswald. and so--i have never seen him before with the pistol. senator russell. he didn't state to you that he talked to any person in mexico other than at the russian embassy and the cuban embassy?* *mrs. oswald. no. the only persons he mentioned were the cuban embassy and the soviet embassy in mexico. senator russell. now, going back to your personal relations, mrs. oswald, with lee. do you think he wanted to send you back to russia just to get rid of you?* *mrs. oswald. this is the question that i am puzzled about and i am wondering about it myself, whether he wanted to get rid of me. senator russell. do you think he was really devoted to the children or was he just putting on a show about liking the children?* *mrs. oswald. yes; he loved the children. *i believe he loved the children, but at times--one side of his life was such that i wondered whether he did or not. some of the things that he did certainly were not good for his children--some of the acts he was engaged in. senator russell. he knew you would take the children back to russia with you, if you wanted, did he not?* *mrs. oswald. of course i would have taken the children with me to the soviet union. senator russell. it seems to me that i recall once or twice in this testimony when you had had some little domestic trouble, as all married couples have, that he had cried, which is most unusual for a man in this country--men don't cry very often, and do you think that he cried despite the fact that he wasn't very devoted to you and loved you a great deal?* ** *mrs. oswald. the fact that he cried, and on one occasion he begged me to come back to him--he stood on his knees and begged me to come back to him--whether that meant that he loved me--perhaps he did. on the other hand, the acts that he committed showed to me that he didn't particularly care for me. senator russell. you think then that his acts that he committed outside your domestic life within the family, within the realm of the family, was an indication that he did not love you?* *mrs. oswald. the fact that he made attempts on the lives of other people showed to me that he did not treasure his family life and his children, also the fact that he beat me and wanted to send me to the soviet union. senator russell. and you think that the fact that he promised you after the walker incident that he would never do anything like that again but did, is an indication that he didn't love you?* *mrs. oswald. logically--yes. that shows to me that he did not love me. at times he cried, and did all sorts of helpful things around the house. at other times he was mean. frankly, i am lost as to what to think about him. and i did not have any choice, because he was the only person that i knew and i could count on--the only person in the united states. senator russell. did he beat you very often, mrs. oswald, strike you hard blows with his fists? did he hit you with his fists?* ** *mrs. oswald. when he beat me, sometimes he would beat me hard and sometimes not too hard. sometimes he would leave a black eye and sometimes he wouldn't, depending on which part of me he would strike me. when we lived in new orleans he never beat me up. senator russell. did he ever beat you in russia before you came to this country?* mrs. oswald. no. senator russell. had you ever heard of any husband striking his wife in russia?* *mrs. oswald. it seems that beating of wives by the russian husbands is a rather common thing in the soviet union and that is why i was afraid to marry a russian. senator russell. i see. do they beat them with anything other than their hands? there was a law in my state at one time that a man could whip his wife as long as he didn't use a switch that was larger than his thumb. that law has been repealed. but, did they ever whip their wives with anything other than their hands in russia?* *mrs. oswald. i do not know. i was not interested in what manner they beat their wives. senator russell. that's difficult for me to believe--that a very charming and attractive girl who was being courted by a number of men, i would have thought you would have been greatly interested in all the aspects of matrimony?* ** *mrs. oswald. how would i know? senator russell. how would you know it--well, by general conversation. don't people talk about those things all over the world--in russia and everywhere else? mrs. oswald. that's different there. senator russell. people are very much the same, aren't they, all over the world? if a man in the neighborhood gets drunk and beats and abuses his wife and children, isn't that discussed by all the people in the block--in that area? mrs. oswald. **sometimes during a life of years with a husband, everything will be all right, and then some occasion will arise or something will happen that the wife will learn about what kind of person he is. *i know of one family in the soviet union in minsk, where a husband was married to a woman years, and he just went to another woman. for year. *for year--then he came back to the first one full of shame and repentance and he cried and she took him back in. he lived with her for days and then left her again. he was excluded from the party. senator russell. excommunicated from the party? mrs. oswald. **expelled from the party. *but he took all the possessions of their common property when he left. senator russell. i'm taking too much time, and i will hurry along. did he ever beat you badly enough, mrs. oswald, for you to require the services of a doctor, a physician?* mrs. oswald. no. senator russell. did he ever strike you during your pregnancy, when you were pregnant?* mrs. oswald. yes. mr. gopadze. she said, "i think." she said, "i think." *mrs. oswald. yes; he did strike me. senator russell. what reason did he give for striking you, usually?* *mrs. oswald. well, the reasons were if--they were very petty--i can't even remember what the reasons were after this quarrel was over. sometimes he would tell me to shut up, and i don't take that from him. **i'm not a very quiet woman myself. senator russell. "i'm not--" what? **mrs. oswald. i'm not a quiet woman myself and sometimes it gets on your nerves and you'll just tell him he's an idiot and he will become more angry with you. *enraged. when i would call him an idiot, he would say, "well, i'll show you what kind of an idiot i am," so he would beat me up. senator russell. did you ever strike him?* *mrs. oswald. i would give him some in return. senator russell. you would give him some in return. as i recall your testimony, when he told you about the nixon incident, you testified that you held him in the bathroom by physical strength for some or minutes, so you should have been able to hold your own pretty well with him if you could do that?* ** mrs. oswald. probably not minutes, but a long time for him. *sometimes one can gather all of his strength in a moment like that. i am not a strong person, but sometimes under stress and strain perhaps i am stronger than i ordinarily am. senator russell. did you ever strike him with anything other than your hand?* *mrs. oswald. well, i think at one time i told him that if he would beat me again, i will hurl a radio, a transistor radio, and when he did strike me, i threw the radio at him. senator russell. you missed him? *mrs. oswald. no--it broke. i missed him. senator russell. yes, she missed him. *mrs. oswald. i tried not to hit him. senator russell. now, going back a moment or two to your uncle, whom you lived with and to whom i understand you are quite devoted--did he try to keep you from coming to the united states very vigorously? *mrs. oswald. my uncle was against my going to america, but he never imposed his will or his opinion on me. senator russell. did he or any other members of your family ever tell you why you had such little difficulty in getting your passport approved?* *mrs. oswald. during the pendency of receiving this exit visa, we never discussed the question, my uncle and my aunt, but when we received it, the exit visa and it was granted to us so quickly, they were very much surprised. mr. gopadze. now, marina, i'm sorry. i would like to make a correction to that point. mr. gregory. all right. mr. gopadze. that during the time they were expecting a visa to depart the soviet union, the relatives didn't express too much about it--because they didn't [think] they would depart, and when they did receive it, they were very much surprised---- mr. gregory. correct. mr. gopadze. with the expediency of the visa. therefore, they didn't bother asking any questions or into their affairs concerning the departure. the last time they visited their aunt and uncle, they say, "oh, of all places, you're going to the united states." senator russell. lee never did make much more than $ a month, in that area, did he, and he was unemployed almost as much as he was employed?* *mrs. oswald. yes. senator russell. how did he manage to pay the state department the money he had borrowed from them and to pay his brother robert under those circumstances?* mrs. oswald. he paid those debts out of his earnings. the first few weeks when we came to the united states, we lived with his mother, and that gave us the opportunity to pay the debts. senator russell. well, you only lived with mrs. oswald a matter of or weeks, didn't you?* *mrs. oswald. yes; but he was earning money during that time. senator russell. i understand, but he was not earning more than $ a month, was he, and he paid four or five or six--what was it, mr. rankin? mr. rankin. it was over $ . senator russell. over $ or more to the state department and some amount to his brother robert. mrs. oswald. around $ . *it was $ . it was probably $ . senator russell. that's $ , and a person that's earning $ a month part of the time, and having to support a family, that's a rather remarkable feat, isn't it, of financing?* *mrs. oswald. i think that at the time we were leaving russia, some of the rubles were exchanged for dollars, and maybe he kept part of that money, of which i have no knowledge, when we arrived in the united states. the only thing i know is that we lived very, very economically and lee was saying all the time that the debts have to be paid as quickly as possible. senator russell. i was under the impression that there was a very drastic limit on the number of rubles that could be exchanged, that it was a hundred or or something in that area?* *mrs. oswald. according to the law in the soviet union, they allow about rubles per person to be exchanged into foreign currency or dollars--$ in our case because lee was including the baby, and she---- senator russell. for each of them--the exchange. mrs. oswald. not for lee. senator russell. no; he couldn't bring out any more than he took in with him. well, he wasn't a visitor, though--yes, he was a visitor then. i know they checked my money when i went in there.** **mrs. oswald. i don't know the reason why they didn't allow lee to exchange $ , but i believe that there is a soviet law that for soviet citizens they allow $ for each person. excuse me. *i believe that a foreigner is also entitled to exchange rubles for dollars, but in a very limited amount. senator russell. mrs. oswald, do you have any plans to return to the soviet union, or do you intend to live in this country?* *mrs. oswald. of course--to remain in the united states. senator russell. i have a few other questions, but i'm already taking too much time. senator cooper. i want to say something off the record. (conference between senator cooper and senator russell off the record.) representative boggs. i have just one question. senator cooper. all right. senator russell. go right ahead. representative boggs. mrs. oswald, have you been taking english lessons? mrs. oswald. yes. representative boggs. do you speak english now?* *mrs. oswald. i can't call it speaking english. representative boggs. but you understand english, you replied to my question a moment ago?** mrs. oswald. yes. representative boggs. but you have been speaking english, studying english, and whom do you live with now? mrs. oswald. with myself and my kids, with my neighbors. representative boggs. do you read english? mrs. oswald. no. a little bit. *a little bit. mr. gopadze. naturally, she knows the english alphabet, but she doesn't read too much. **sometimes i read on my own, but on the other hand, it might be entirely different for an american. senator russell. well, i believe you can speak it pretty well, mrs. oswald. you are a very intelligent person, and i've never seen a woman yet that didn't learn a foreign language three times as fast as a man. mrs. oswald. thank you. senator russell. they all do, and in some places in russia you run into women that speak three or four languages very fluently, including in the high schools, where they have or years of english, starting in the first grade with it? mrs. oswald. that's the way they try--to learn it in school. senator russell. is that your foreign language? i understand in russia each student has to study some one foreign language all the way--or at least for or years? mrs. oswald. yes; but i don't like this system of education in russia to study some languages--well, he can speak, you know. senator russell. mrs. oswald, your attorney--your then attorney, according to the record, asked the commission some questions about your memoirs, your diary or whatever it was that you have written--your reminiscences, and that they not be released. have you ever made arrangements yet to sell them? have you gotten rid of them? because--the record of the commission will be printed at a rather early date?* ** *mrs. oswald. i do not want these memoirs to be published by warren commission. senator russell. yes; i understand that. *mrs. oswald. i am now working on a book and i may wish to include these memoirs in that book. i have no objection to the publication of the material in those memoirs that have any relation to the assassination of the president, or anything that is pertinent to this particular inquiry. senator russell. of course, a great deal of it is very personal. it's about your social relations when you were a young woman. of course, you are a young woman now, but when you were even younger than you are now, and the friends that you had, and things of that nature, and this report is going to be published before too long. and that's among the evidence there, and i was trying to get some timing on your book or whatever it is you are going to publish that would utilize this material, in an effort to help you--that is the only purpose i had, to try to see that you don't lose the publicity value of the memoirs.* *mrs. oswald. i understand that and i'm certainly grateful to you for it. **would it be possible to publish in the report only parts of my life, that pertaining to the assassination, instead of my private life? senator russell. i cannot answer that, and only the entire commission could answer that, but when i read that in the testimony, i was hoping that you had found some means of commercializing on it either to the moving picture people or to the publishing world. mrs. oswald. as yet, i have not availed myself of that opportunity, sir. senator russell. when do you think you will publish this book?* *mrs. oswald. the publisher will possibly publish the book toward the end of december, maybe in january and even perhaps---- mr. gopadze. not the publisher. the person who writes the story is hoping to be able to finish it in the latter part of december. senator russell. of course, it goes into much more detail, i'm sure, than this sketch we have, because this wouldn't be anything like a book. it would be more of a magazine article. **mrs. oswald. would it be possible to delete it from the commission's report? senator russell. i can't answer that because i'm not the whole commission.** very frankly, i think the commission would be disposed to publish all the material that they have, is my own honest view about it. the reason i am discussing it with you is to find out if you have done anything about it. of course, if you are writing a whole book, it won't be so important, just this one phase of it. mrs. oswald, during the course of your testimony, you testified that lee often called you twice a day while he was working away from home. why do you think he called you if he was not in love with you?*** *mrs. oswald. when he was away from me, he told me that he missed me. senator russell. you don't think that's an indication that he loved you?* *mrs. oswald. this shows--this would show that he loved me. he was a dual personality. senator russell. split personality. mrs. oswald. split personality--that's it. senator russell. mrs. oswald, i noticed that one of the witnesses, i've forgotten which one it was, that ran the boarding house where lee lived, testified that he called someone every night and talked to them at some length in a foreign language. that couldn't have been anyone except you, could it, that he was calling?* ** *mrs. oswald. i believe that i was the person he talked to. senator russell. he did call you quite frequently, did he not when you were in irving and he was in dallas, for example? mrs. oswald. every day. senator russell. but he didn't call you to abuse you over the phone, did he?* ** *mrs. oswald. of course not. senator russell. it was the ordinary small talk you would have between a man and his wife--he would ask you about how the children were--one of them--was?* *mrs. oswald. he always talked about our daughter june. senator russell. did he ever say anything about, "i love you" or anything like that over the phone?** mrs. oswald. (no response). mr. gopadze. did he? *mrs. oswald. yes. senator russell. he did? *mrs. oswald. he did. senator russell. now, you've testified before, and i'm just going on recollection, but i'm sure i'm right about this, that he told you in new orleans that he was going to mexico city and that he was going by bus and that a round trip would be much cheaper than a one-way fare. i noticed something in the paper the other day where you had found a one-way ticket or stub on the bus from mexico city to dallas, i believe it was. how did you happen to come into possession of that stub?* *mrs. oswald. you say round trip was cheaper than one-way? senator russell. yes; that's what you testified he told you in new orleans when he said he was going. but here, according to the press--i don't know--a one-way stub turns up where he came back here to dallas. where did you get that stub?* *mrs. oswald. my statement apparently was misinterpreted in the record, because lee stated that the cost of the ticket, say, from dallas to mexico is cheaper than it is from mexico city to dallas or from one point to mexico and from mexico to that same point. senator russell. well, that very easily could have become confused in translation, but it certainly is in there.* mr. rankin. i think they have confused your question, senator, i think they have confused your question. i think they think that you were saying that a round trip was cheaper than one way? or--two ways? senator russell. i'm sorry, mr. gregory. you misunderstood it. i didn't mean that a round trip was cheaper than one way. i meant that a round trip was cheaper than to go there and back on individual tickets--than two ways. mr. gregory. she understood you correctly. i misunderstood you, senator. i'm sorry. *mrs. oswald. the fact remains, according to lee, that it is cheaper from mexico--a one-way ticket from mexico city, say, to dallas costs less than from dallas to mexico, mexico city. or vice versa. senator russell. be that as it may, how about the stub? *mrs. oswald. i found the stub of this ticket approximately weeks ago when working with priscilla johnson on the book. three weeks. *three weeks ago--i found this stub of a ticket among old magazines, spanish magazines, and there was a television program also in spanish and there was the stub of this ticket. mrs. oswald. but this was, you know, a piece of paper and i didn't know this was a ticket. senator russell. you didn't know it was a ticket? mrs. oswald. no. senator russell. until you showed it to miss johnson? mrs. oswald. yes--it was in the tv book and then mr. liebeler called me on telephone and asked me some questions about mexico. senator russell. yes? mrs. oswald. and i told him, "just a minute, i'll go and inquire and tell him what i have," and i told him i have some kind of piece of paper. i don't know what it is. i don't know whether it would be interested--the commission, and somebody who was at my house one time---- *read what was on the stub. senator russell. you could read the stub all right, could you, mrs. oswald? there wasn't anything complicated there, you could read "one-way ticket," couldn't you? you know that much english?* *mrs. oswald. it was a mixture of spanish and english. senator russell. oh, i see--it had it both ways, and the name of the bus company, too, perhaps. mrs. oswald. i didn't understand this in languages--you can't say this. senator russell. where had that magazine been that had this bus ticket in it, was anything else in it, any tickets to bull fights or anywhere else?* *mrs. oswald. i turned all of this material over to the fbi, thinking that they might find something of interest in it. i did not try to determine for myself what it was. senator russell. was it in the possessions that were removed from mrs. paine's room, or was it in some of lee's material that was moved from his boardinghouse?* mrs. oswald. it was with mrs. paine. senator russell. didn't you testify, mrs. oswald, that lee couldn't read spanish, when you were testifying before? what was he doing with a spanish magazine? mrs. oswald. it wasn't a spanish magazine, it was a tv program. senator russell. pardon? mrs. oswald. it was a tv program. *it was not a spanish magazine, it was a tv program. senator russell. oh, it was not a magazine, it was a tv program. i understood you to say it was a spanish magazine? i'm sorry. *mrs. oswald. i found all this among my old magazines and newspapers, that i was collecting after the assassination of the president, and there also were english books which could have been in that small suitcase in which i put everything. senator russell. how did the fbi happen to overlook that when they made the raid out there at mrs. paine's? i thought they carried off everything you had out there, practically?* *mrs. oswald. the reason they overlooked this particular suitcase is because i took it with me to---- **to the hotel--the first night they moved us. *when we stayed in the hotel. it was in dallas. senator russell. it was in dallas. that's when they were at the big hotel--where you spent one night there? *mrs. oswald. it was in dallas and i took it with me because there were children's books. senator russell. i thought the fbi had already removed your passports and your diploma and everything before that time? *mrs. oswald. the first day when lee was arrested, the fbi made a search. mr. gopadze. the fbi or police. mr. gregory. the fbi or police. senator russell. i believe it was the police then. *mrs. oswald. the police made the search in the paine's house. senator russell. yes. *mrs. oswald. and everything was there. i did not take anything with me that first day when i was arrested. senator russell. when you returned to mrs. paine's you found they had left this particular program there with this bus stub? you testified they had removed your passport and your diploma and lee's union cards and social security card and everything else--i was just wondering how they happened to leave this particular article with the bus stub in it?* mrs. oswald. **i never retained that for any special reason. senator russell. i'm quite sure of that. i wasn't asking that at all.** mrs. oswald. **i don't know the reason. senator russell. they just overlooked that? mrs. oswald. **it was just overlooked--the same way they overlooked that other. senator russell. mrs. oswald, what are your relations now with the friends that you made in the russian community here in dallas? i don't remember all of the names--one of them was named elena hall, is that right, and katya ford, anna meller, de mohrenschildt, de mohrenschildt's wife and children--are you still on friendly terms with them, do you see them occasionally?* *mrs. oswald. as far as i'm concerned, i consider all of them as my friends, but george bouhe, and katya ford are the only two people that come to visit me. others perhaps feel that it is not healthy for them to come to see me. senator russell. i wondered if they had expressed their opinion or whether they were afraid of you on account of publicity contamination?* *mrs. oswald. no, they never said that to me personally that they are afraid to come to see me. when we meet in the church, they are all very pleasant to me, but they never invite me. mr. gopadze. no. **mrs. oswald. sometimes they invite katya ford, but they never invite me. nataska krassovska is very nice to me. senator russell. when was the first time you ever heard of jack ruby or jack rubenstein?* mrs. oswald. when he killed him. senator russell. you had never heard of him until that time? mrs. oswald. (nodding a negative response.) senator russell. that's all. senator cooper. what is your address now, mrs. oswald, and with whom do you live? mrs. oswald. belt line road, richardson, tex. senator cooper. does someone live with you or do you live with someone? mrs. oswald. no; i live by myself with my children. senator cooper. after the death of your husband, you had a lawyer, mr. thorne, and a business agent, mr. martin, and they were discharged. was there any particular reason for discharging them?* *mrs. oswald. i got rid of them because the contract that they prepared was unfair to me, and it was prepared at a time when i did not understand it and when it was not translated to me. senator cooper. now, you later employed mr. mckenzie as your attorney and you have since discharged him, haven't you?* *mrs. oswald. i employed mr. mckenzie to wind up the affair with mr. martin and mr. thorne, and he was not employed on any other basis--just for that particular thing. **not permanently. *not permanently--just for that particular thing, despite the fact that he did give advice on other business of mine. of course, i needed an attorney in my dealings with the commission that's what he told me--that i needed an attorney to deal with the commission. mr. gopadze. she said---- mr. rankin. she said more than that. *mrs. oswald. now, as i feel now, i don't need any lawyer before the commission. senator cooper. if you'll just answer my question now: do you have a lawyer to represent you now?* mrs. oswald. no. senator cooper. who is your business agent? mrs. oswald. mrs. katya ford. senator cooper. can you tell the commission about how much money has been donated to you or how much you have earned through contracts?* *mrs. oswald. i do not know at this time how much money i have. senator cooper. approximately?* *mrs. oswald. donations were $ , , from which twelve and one-half thousand plus expenses were paid to martin and thorne, and $ , to mr. mckenzie. senator cooper. do you have any contracts, have you made any contracts for the sale of your writings which may be payable in the future?* ** mrs. oswald. the publishing company contract with me is all. *i have not signed any contracts with the publishing company, except i have already signed several contracts with life magazine. after the diary was published. **after the diary was published. senator cooper. that's for $ , ? mrs. oswald. $ , plus $ , for parade magazine, and one girl--helen--i don't know her last name, i know we did---- *also, i signed--i agreed with a girl by the name of helen--i cannot remember her last name, for possible future stories helen might write. we have interview. senator cooper. you testified that your uncle is an official and a colonel in the mvd?* ** and, a member of the communist party, is that correct? mrs. oswald. yes. senator cooper. do you know that any other members of your family are members of the communist party?* ** *mrs. oswald. the husband of another aunt. senator cooper. is that the aunt you visited from time to time?* ** **mrs. oswald. yes. senator cooper. at kharkov? mrs. oswald. at minsk. senator cooper. with whom did you file your declaration for an exit visa?** * *mrs. oswald. there is a special institution in minsk where prospective departees filed application for exit visa. they leave the application in that institution, and that institution transmits it to moscow where the decision is made whether to grant or to deny the exit permit. the reply then comes to the mvd in minsk. *i want to assure the commission that i was never given any assignment by the soviet government or the american government, and that i was so surprised myself that i got the exit visa. senator cooper. when you talked to colonel aksenov, what did he tell you when you asked him about the exit visa?* *mrs. oswald. when i went to see colonel aksenov, i went to ask him about the state in which my application is for exit visa, and he replied---- mr. gopadze. no. "was it favorable or not," and he said it was favorable. mr. gregory. yes, and he said---- mr. gopadze. that it takes official process of getting the answer. *mrs. oswald. he said, "you are not the only one who is seeking exit permit, and so you have to wait your turn." senator cooper. did he attempt to discourage you from seeking the exit visa? mrs. oswald. no. senator cooper. did lee oswald ever express any opinion to you as to why he thought an exit visa might be granted to you and your daughter? *mrs. oswald. he encouraged me and he thought that i would consider that he exerted every effort on his part for me to get this exit. maybe he just was saying that that way, but never hoped that actually i would get the exit permit. senator cooper. during that time or at any other time, did lee ever say to you that he might do some work for the soviet union if you did return to the united states?* *mrs. oswald. he did not. senator cooper. i would like to turn to your testimony about your knowledge of the rifle that lee possessed. now, as i remember your testimony, you stated that you first learned that he had the rifle early in .* *mrs. oswald. in the year that he bought it, i learned it. senator cooper. you had seen him clean it, you had watched him sight the rifle in new orleans and work the bolt?* ** mr. gregory. in new orleans? senator cooper. yes; in your testimony, you said you saw him sitting on the little back porch---- mrs. oswald. on the little back porch--yes. senator cooper. and sight the rifle? *mrs. oswald. i'm sorry, i might be mixed up. senator cooper. when you testified that you believed he did some target practice at least a few times? *mrs. oswald. in dallas or new orleans?* ** *yes; when we lived on neely street. senator cooper. he told you that he had used this rifle to fire at general walker?* mrs. oswald. yes. senator cooper. he told you he had threatened vice president nixon, you had said?* *mrs. oswald. he did not say "vice president nixon," he just said "nixon." senator cooper. now, was it your opinion throughout these months that he was keeping this rifle for his purpose of using it again, firing at some individual, perhaps an official of the united states government?* ** mrs. oswald. **he never expressed himself. *when the assassination of president kennedy took place, i was asking people whether--people in general--whether general walker was with president kennedy. it perhaps was a silly question, but i thought that he---- senator cooper. listen to my question: during this time, didn't you have the opinion that he was keeping possession of this rifle and practicing with it for the purpose of using it to shoot at some individual, and perhaps an official of the united states government?* *mrs. oswald. i never thought--i was afraid to think that he would do anything like that until the shooting of general walker occurred. senator cooper. but now my question. after that--the continued possession----* ** **mrs. oswald. after the attempting of the killing of general walker, i thought he might do it, but i didn't visualize that he could do anything like that. senator cooper. when you testified before the commission, you said--generally--you didn't think lee would repeat anything like that--"generally, i knew that the rifle was very tempting for him". "very tempting for him"--what did you mean by that, about the rifle being very tempting for him? did you believe he might be tempted to shoot at someone else?* *mrs. oswald. yes; i was afraid that he did have temptation to kill someone else. senator cooper. mrs. oswald, you testified that when you talked to lee after he had shot at general walker, or told you he had shot at general walker, he said that it would have been well if someone had killed hitler because many lives would be saved, is that correct? mrs. oswald. yes. senator cooper. after that, you testified that many times or a number of times he read you articles about president kennedy? mrs. oswald. yes. senator cooper. and said at one time, discussing president kennedy's father, that he had made his money through wine and he had a great deal of money, and that enabled him to educate his sons and to give them a start. i want you to remember and tell the commission if he did ever express any hatred or dislike for president kennedy. you have several times--not changed--but you have told the commission things you did not tell them when first asked. now, if he did speak to you about president kennedy, we think you should tell the commission?* *mrs. oswald. i don't think he ever expressed hatred toward president kennedy, but perhaps he expressed jealousy, not only jealousy, but envy, but perhaps he envied, because he said, "whoever has money has it easy." that was his general attitude. it was not a direct quotation. representative boggs. pursuing this--i asked you that very question in washington back in february, and the answer was "no." i asked you whether or not your husband ever expressed hostility toward president kennedy--is your answer still "no"?* *mrs. oswald. my answer is "no." **he never expressed himself anything against president kennedy, anything detrimental toward him. what i told them generally before, i am repeating now too. representative boggs. did he ever indicate to you, except in the walker situation where he said he'd shot at general walker, that he would kill anyone?* *mrs. oswald. no. representative boggs. what about nixon?* *mrs. oswald. he did tell me he was about ready to commit that particular act, with respect to nixon. that's when i kept him in the bathroom, but he never said, "well, today it's walker and then i'm going to kill someone else." he never said that. he never related to me any of his plans about killing anybody. *in other words, he never said to me, "now, i'll kill walker and then i'll kill this fellow" and so on--he never did. senator cooper. you testified that your husband said that he did not like the united states for several reasons; one, because of certain fascist organizations; two, because of difficulty of securing employment; and another reason--because of the high cost of medical care. did he ever say that those things that he did not like could be remedied or changed if an official of the government were done away with?* ** *mrs. oswald. no; he never told me. **no; he never told me--he never told me. senator cooper. did any official of the soviet union, or any person who was a soviet citizen, ever talk to you or ever talk to lee to your knowledge, during the time that you were in the united states? mr. gregory. at any time before or after? senator cooper. yes? senator russell. you said--in the united states, didn't you? senator cooper. yes; in the united states.* *mrs. oswald. no; no one ever did. the only time lee talked with a representative of the soviet union was in mexico, but not me and lee, we were never approached by the soviet representatives. senator cooper. when was the first time you ever heard of police officer tippit?* *mrs. oswald. when there was a broadcast over the radio that officer tippit was killed. senator cooper. have you seen mrs. paine since the time you left her home after the assassination?* mrs. oswald. yes. i saw her twice since i left irving, since i lived with her in irving. senator cooper. when was that?* *mrs. oswald. once, when i lived with katya ford in february of this year, and the next time i do not recall--maybe month later. in my house. senator cooper. you had quite an association with her, and i need not recall all of the facts, but is there any reason now that you do not wish to see her?* *mrs. oswald. one of the reasons is that she belongs to the civil liberties union and i don't want to get mixed up in anything. i already have plenty of grief. senator cooper. just one other question--is there any other fact about this subject, which you have been asked by the commission or by anyone else that you have knowledge of that you have not told us about it? any fact that would bear on this inquiry?* ** *mrs. oswald. i would be glad to, but i don't know of any. representative boggs. may i just ask one or two questions? have you seen mrs. marguerite oswald at any time since you first appeared before the commission? mrs. oswald. no. representative boggs. have you heard from her? mrs. oswald. no. representative boggs. you've had no communication from her either directly or indirectly?* ** mrs. oswald. no. *she tried to get in touch with me. **through attorney mckenzie. representative boggs. and you refused to see her? mrs. oswald. yes. *i think that she may have been bad influence with the children--improper influence with the children. **i feel that--i hardly believe--that lee oswald really tried to kill president kennedy. mrs. oswald. i feel in my own mind that lee did not have president kennedy as a prime target when he assassinated him. representative boggs. well, who was it? *mrs. oswald. i think it was connally. that's my personal opinion that he perhaps was shooting at governor connally, the governor of texas. senator russell. you've testified before us before that lee told you he was coming back to texas--if he was back in texas, he would vote for connally for governor. why do you think he would shoot him? mrs. oswald. **i feel that the reason that he had connally in his mind was on account of his discharge from the marines and various letters they exchanged between the marine corps and the governor's office, but actually, i didn't think that he had any idea concerning president kennedy. representative boggs. well, now, my next question is--did he ever express any hostility to governor connally?* *mrs. oswald. he never expressed that to me--his displeasure or hatred of connally, but i feel that there could have been some connection, due to the fact that lee was dishonorably discharged from the corps, and there was an exchange of letters between the governor's office and lee. that's my personal opinion. representative boggs. just a minute. excuse me, senator. i asked you in february, mrs. oswald, i said, "what motive would you ascribe to your husband in killing president kennedy?" and, you said, "as i saw the documents that were being read to me, i came to the conclusion that he wanted by any means, good or bad to get into history, and now that i've read a part of the translation of some of the documents, i think that there was some political foundation to it, a foundation of which i am not aware." and then you go on and you express no doubt in your mind that he intended to kill president kennedy. mrs. oswald. **did i say that, this last time in dallas? the last time in dallas, apparently there was some misunderstanding on the part of my answers to the commission, because i was told by mr. mckenzie that it wasn't reported accurately. *the record should read that on the basis of the documents that i have read, i have no doubt--that i had available to me to read--i had no doubt that he did---- mr. gopadze. that he could kill him---- mr. gregory. could or have wanted to--could have wanted to---- mr. gopadze. he could kill--she doesn't say "want"--he could have killed him. representative boggs. let's straighten this out because this is very important. mrs. oswald. okay. representative boggs. i'll read it to you, "i gather that you have reached the conclusion in your own mind that your husband killed president kennedy?" you replied, "regretfully--yes." now, do you have any reason to change that?* *mrs. oswald. that's correct. i have no doubt that he did kill the president. representative boggs. now, the other answer as i read it was: "on the basis of documents that you had seen presented at the commission hearing"--isn't that right? mrs. oswald. **the word "documents" is wrong--the facts presented--that's what i mean. representative boggs. again we get back to the question of motive. you said again today that you are convinced that lee oswald killed president kennedy. you said something additionally today, though, and that is that you feel that it was his intention not to kill president kennedy, but to kill governor connally. now, am i correct in saying that she had not said this previously? mr. rankin. ask her that.* ** representative boggs. let's get an answer. i think this answer is quite important. *mrs. oswald. on the basis of all the available facts, i have no doubt in my mind that lee oswald killed president kennedy. *at the same time, i feel in my own mind as far as i am concerned, i feel that lee--that my husband perhaps intended to kill governor connally instead of president kennedy. representative boggs. now, let me ask you one other question: assuming that this is correct, would you feel that there would be any less guilt in killing governor connally than in killing the president?* *mrs. oswald. i am not trying to vindicate or justify or excuse lee as my husband. even if he killed one of his neighbors, still it wouldn't make much difference--it wouldn't make any difference--a killing is a killing. i am sorry. representative boggs. there are one or two other questions i want to ask her. i know you've been asked a lot of questions about this thing. how old were you when you left russia?* mrs. oswald. twenty years. my birthday--i was when i came here. in july--my birthday was in july. representative boggs. were you a member of the communist party in russia?* mrs. oswald. no. *i was a member of a komsomol organization. representative boggs. what is that?* *mrs. oswald. it is an association of young communist youth. it is not party, sir. in order to become a member of the communist party, one has to be first a member of the komsomol, but i didn't even have the membership card in komsomol association. representative boggs. would it be normal for one to graduate, so to speak, from the komsomol to the membership in the communist party?* *mrs. oswald. it is a prerequisite for a prospective member of the communist party to be first a member of the komsomol organization, but not every member of komsomol becomes a communist party member. mr. rankin. what percentage? senator cooper. she was expelled? senator russell. no; she testified she quit the youth movement.* *mrs. oswald. i was dismissed. **i was expelled from komsomol. senator russell. why--for what reason?* *mrs. oswald. the reason given to me for being expelled from komsomol was because i did not get my card, because i did not take out my komsomol card for year. that was the reason given to me, but i believe the true reason why they expelled me from komsomol was because i married an american. it also happened about the time when i visited the american embassy. i was expelled the following week after i visited the american embassy in moscow. senator russell. did you pay any dues to the komsomol? mrs. oswald. yes; ¢ *yes; ¢ every month. senator russell. i thought that practically all young people belonged to the komsomol?* ** mrs. oswald. no. senator russell. there are many more of them than there are members of the communist party, aren't there?* mrs. oswald. oh, yes. senator russell. nearly every city in russia has a big building, there is a youth komsomol building?* *mrs. oswald. yes; i was persuaded or talked into joining the komsomol organization. senator russell. i thought that was automatic?** mrs. oswald. no. *no--one has to be accepted into komsomol. it is not automatic. representative boggs. one further question, and this is off the record. (interrogatories and answers off the record at this point.) representative boggs. in response to senator russell, i gathered that you plan to stay in the united states?* *mrs. oswald. yes; if possible. representative boggs. do you aspire to become a citizen of the united states, or are you a citizen?* *mrs. oswald. i am not a citizen. i wish to become an american citizen. senator russell. mrs. oswald, when you were before us before, you testified that you were not a member of any church, but you had your own religion in your own heart, as i recall?* ** *mrs. oswald. in russia i did not belong to any church. no one belongs to any church in russia. senator russell. except old women? *mrs. oswald. i'll say this--that i believe it's unhealthy in the soviet union to openly belong to any church. while there is no persecution of religious belief in russia, the officials look at it with much disfavor. senator russell. but you are not actually a member of the church, are you?* ** **mrs. oswald. in russian churches, they don't have a fee or they don't have any membership, they have dues in russian churches. senator russell. but you've not been baptized in any church?* mrs. oswald. oh, yes; i have been baptized. senator russell. when were you baptized? mrs. oswald. i don't remember. senator russell. are you actually a member of the church?* ** **mrs. oswald. actually, i am not a member as you know in the united states. however, i belong to the church, the russian church here in dallas, and i don't pay dues. senator russell. you are more of a communicant now than you are a member of the church? mrs. oswald. i think the understanding of church membership is different in the soviet union or in the understanding of a person that was brought up in the soviet union. senator russell. i am concerned about this testimony, mrs. oswald, about your believing now that lee was shooting at connally and not at the president, because you did not tell us that before.* *mrs. oswald. at that time i didn't think so, but the more i mull over it in my own mind trying to get it in my own mind what made him do what he did, the more i think that he was shooting at connally rather than president kennedy. senator russell. now, did you not testify before that lee wrote a letter to connally when he was secretary of the navy about the nature of his marine discharge? mrs. oswald. yes. senator russell. and that when he got a letter back, that you asked him what it was? mrs. oswald. yes. senator russell. and he said, "well, it's just some bureaucrat's statement"?* mrs. oswald. yes. *yes. senator russell. did you not further testify that lee said in discussing the gubernatorial election in texas that if he were here and voting, that he would vote for mr. connally?* *mrs. oswald. yes. senator russell. now, do you think he would shoot and kill a man that he would vote for, for the governor of his state?* ** **mrs. oswald. the only reason is--i am trying to analyze, myself, there was a reason--more reason to dislike connally as a man than he had for kennedy. senator russell. well, she testified before that he had spoken, as far as lee spoke favorably of anyone, that he had spoken favorably of both kennedy and of governor connally.** **mrs. oswald. he also told me that he was also favorable toward connally, while they were in russia. there is a possibility that he changed his mind, but he never told her that. senator russell. well, i think that's about as speculative as the answers i've read here. he might have changed his mind, but he didn't tell her anything about it, as she testified--that discussing politics in texas, that he said that if he were here when they had the election, that he would vote for john connally for governor, and that was after he got the letter about the marine corps.* ** **mrs. oswald. that happened in russia when he received some kind of pamphlet with a picture of connally, a separate time, at which time he remarked that when he returned, if and when he returned to texas he would vote for connally. senator russell. that's right--that's exactly right, but yet now you say that he was his prime target. i want to know what connally had done to lee since he got back from russia that would cause him to change his mind, to shoot him?* ** *mrs. oswald. i do not know, but there is a possibility that lee became hateful of connally because the matter of this dishonorable discharge was dragging so long. senator russell. yes; but connally had left the navy, where he had anything to do with the discharge, before he got the pamphlet about his being a candidate for governor?** * **mrs. oswald. i am not sure when that particular thing happened, whether mr. connally was the secretary of the navy or what he was doing. senator russell. well, it's a matter of common knowledge that he ran for governor after he resigned as secretary of the navy. mrs. oswald. i don't know. senator russell. did you not know that when mr. connally was running for governor of texas, he was no longer secretary of the navy and had nothing to do with the marine corps?* *mrs. oswald. yes, i knew--i knew that he was not the secretary of the navy any more because lee told me that connally stated in the letter to lee that he was no longer secretary of navy and hence he couldn't do anything for him, and that connally referred the petition to the proper authorities. senator russell. mrs. oswald, didn't lee read about government a great deal? didn't lee read about civic affairs and about government a great deal?* *mrs. oswald. he read books about kennedy, about hitler, about others. senator russell. haven't you been in this country long enough to know that the president is commander and chief of the army and navy and he's even head of the secretary of the navy. he can order him to do anything he wants to?* *mrs. oswald. i didn't pay any attention to it or i didn't know it or wasn't told. senator russell. do you have any facts on which you base your opinion now that lee oswald was shooting and was intending to kill connally rather than president kennedy?* *mrs. oswald. i have no facts whatsoever. i simply express an opinion which perhaps is not logical at all, but i am sorry if i mixed everybody up. senator russell. you haven't mixed anybody up, except i think that you have your evidence terribly confused.* *mrs. oswald. no; i have no facts whatsover. i'm sorry i told them that. senator russell. do you know whether or not lee knew connally personally or did he know that he was going to be in this motorcade at all?* *mrs. oswald. no; i did not know whether lee knew or ever contacted the governor personally, and i don't know whether lee knew that the governor would be in the motorcade. senator russell. but lee did take his gun into town that day, and so far as you know, i believe you said that was the first day he had carried it into town? *mrs. oswald. i do not personally know that lee took the rifle that morning or the night before. apparently the commission has witnesses or information to that effect, but of my own knowledge, i don't know. senator russell. did you not testify that you thought this was lee's rifle that was shown you as the one that shot connally and the president?* *mrs. oswald. yes; i testified that that was the rifle. mr. gopadze. no--i'm sorry. as far as she knows about the arms, the rifle which was shown to her looked like the one he had. mr. gregory. yes; that's right. senator russell. that's all i asked her. that's just exactly what i asked her. mr. gregory. yes; that's correct. senator russell. in discussing the motorcade, did he say anything about connally would be riding with the president?* *mrs. oswald. no; he did not. senator russell. i believe you testified, did you not, mrs. oswald, that the day before lee told you that he fired at general walker, that he seemed to be under great emotional stress, strain, very tense?* ** *mrs. oswald. he was angry and excited. he was angry and excited. senator russell. did he show any of that on the morning that he left home when the president was assassinated?* ** *mrs. oswald. well, i did not notice any difference in lee's attitude during that morning from any other day. but sometimes, quite often, he was impulsive and nervous and excited. i got tired from watching him in those particular moods, in his moods, and i didn't pay any attention. senator russell. why did you happen to watch him then on the morning that he shot at general walker?* *mrs. oswald. i simply--his mood left no impression on me that particular morning. there was nothing extraordinary about it. senator russell. on the walker morning? mrs. oswald. no, no--on the morning of the president's assassination. senator russell. yes, but you said you noticed it on the morning before he shot walker? mrs. oswald. are you talking about walker? senator russell. if you didn't notice his moods, how did you happen to notice it on the day before he shot at general walker?* ** mrs. oswald. the reason i didn't notice that particular morning about his mood was because the night before we had a little quarrel and i didn't pay any attention to that, particularly, and i was thinking that it was due to that quarrel we had the night before. senator russell. well, of course, that was the quarrel you had about him registering under an assumed name or giving an assumed name at his room.** was that not the time, did you not try to telephone him and they told you that no such person stayed there at all? *mrs. oswald. that was the cause of the quarrel. you see, at this particular morning of the assassination, i was very tired because the baby woke up several times during the night and i was very tired, and in the morning i did not register or i did not even attempt to register his moods. senator russell. i think you testified before that you only saw him when he got up, that you stayed in bed and that he got up and fixed his own coffee and got out.* ** *mrs. oswald. the only extraordinary thing that i noticed about him the morning of the assassination was that when lee was leaving the house, he asked me if i purchased a pair of shoes. senator russell. for june? mrs. oswald. for me. senator russell. and for june?* *mrs. oswald. and for the baby. senator russell. and for june? *mrs. oswald. and that was the only thing that was extraordinary, and i wondered what was happening that he became, that he was so kind all of a sudden. senator russell. that was out of the money in the black wallet, too? mrs. oswald. yes. *yes--that was a fleeting thought in my mind of why the change in him. senator russell. but apparently he was not as excited and as upset as he was the morning before the walker shooting?* *mrs. oswald. he was just as usual--sort of sleepy that particular morning. he was not excited. then, i was so sleepy myself that i didn't pay any attention. senator russell. but you did testify that he was unusually excited the night before he shot at general walker, did you not? *mrs. oswald. the more time is passing, the more i am mixed up as to the exact occurrence. i'm forgetting these fine details with the passing of time. mr. rankin. mr. chairman, i wonder if we could take a -minute recess? the reporter has been at it a long time? senator russell. oh, yes; i don't know how she's stood it. i've never seen one in the congress that took it anything like that long. the reporter. thank you. mr. rankin. and we will let you have a minute recess, mrs. oswald. (at this point the proceedings were recessed and resumed as stated, at : p.m., sunday, september , .) mr. rankin. mr. chairman. mrs. oswald, you have not appeared here today with a lawyer, have you?* mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. you have not, is that right? you have no lawyer with you? mrs. oswald. no. senator russell. no. mr. rankin. when you appeared before the commission the other two times, you did have a lawyer with you, did you not? mrs. oswald. yes--the other two times. mr. rankin. is there some reason why you do not have a lawyer at this time?* *mrs. oswald. that attorney cost me too much. mr. rankin. and--before this hearing, mrs. oswald, we offered to, that is the commission offered to furnish you an attorney if you wanted one to be supplied to you for this hearing, did it not?* ** **mrs. oswald. you did so? mr. rankin. i understood that that message was given to you by the secret service that we would ask for the appointment of counsel to attend the meeting with you, if you wished it, and you said you didn't need it, you would just tell the truth? mrs. oswald. mr. sorrels called me on telephone and he asked me if i have a lawyer, an attorney, and i said, "no," and he told me, "do i want to have one?" and i said, "no." mr. rankin. and you understood that you would be supplied a lawyer if you wanted one and you said you didn't, is that right? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. you referred to the fact, when you were asked, that your husband had a rifle in the soviet union while he was there. in your prior testimony, you referred to either a rifle or a shotgun, do you know which it was?* *mrs. oswald. i do not know the difference between the shotgun and the rifle. mr. rankin. do you know that he had one or the other?* *mrs. oswald. i know that there is a difference between this particular rifle and another rifle, but i don't know what the difference is. it was perhaps a different color. mr. rankin. you know that in the soviet union he did have either a rifle or a shotgun, do you?* mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. turning to the period when you were in new orleans, just before you went back to dallas with ruth paine, do you recall that time?* *mrs. oswald. yes--faintly. mr. rankin. do you remember that was the latter part of september?* mrs. oswald. **possibly. mr. rankin. do you remember what date you went back to dallas from new orleans?* ** *mrs. oswald. it wasn't the th of september? mr. rankin. wasn't it about the d of september that you went back?* ** mrs. oswald. the d? *i do not know. mr. rankin. do you remember that you had a discussion with your husband about the unemployment check that he was to receive about that time?* ** *mrs. oswald. i remember lee told me that he was expecting an unemployment check just before he left for mexico. mr. rankin. did he tell you that he had changed the postal address and that that check would probably come to ruth paine's?* *mrs. oswald. he told me that he was going to change his address and that the letters would come to that new address of ruth paine. mr. rankin. did the unemployment check ever come to ruth paine's?* *mrs. oswald. when he returned from mexico, he asked me if the unemployment check arrived, and i replied that i did not know. no; there was no check. mr. rankin. did he say anything about getting the check at new orleans and cashing it himself?* ** *mrs. oswald. i do not remember it right now, but if i mentioned that to the commission before, then it was so. mr. rankin. do you have any recollection about it now?* *mrs. oswald. i do not recall distinctly now, but i think there was some conversation about the check being long in transit, that the check was sent from dallas to new orleans and from new orleans to irving. mr. rankin. well apparently, mrs. oswald, the facts show that the check was cashed by your husband with a stamped mark of the bank, dated the th of september, in new orleans. does that refresh your memory at all?* ** *mrs. oswald. i was not with lee at that time. mr. rankin. did he ever tell you anything about it?* *mrs. oswald. i do not remember at this moment. mr. rankin. apparently he cashed the check at the little store, or the supermarket, near where you lived there in new orleans. did he every tell you that?* ** *mrs. oswald. no; he did not tell me. i do not remember that he told me. mr. rankin. did lee ever tell you where he stayed the night after you left, that is, the night of the d of september?* *mrs. oswald. he told me that he stayed in that same house. mr. rankin. at the house where you had lived?** **mrs. oswald. he stayed with his aunt. i remember something that he stayed a couple days with his aunt in new orleans. *did i leave on the d? mr. rankin. yes. *mrs. oswald. i do not recall distinctly at this moment, but i believe he said he spent the first night at the house where we lived, and perhaps one or two nights at aunt lillian's. mr. rankin. is there something else? mrs. oswald. it is so difficult for me to remember now. mr. rankin. did your husband have any cuban friends at new orleans?* *mrs. oswald. i do not know about this. mr. rankin. do you remember the time a man by the name of bringuier came to the house there? bringuier [spelling] b-r-i-n-g-u-i-e-r. *mrs. oswald. someone came, but i don't know from which organization or who he was. mr. rankin. was there more than one person who came asking about that or only one?* mrs. oswald. just one. mr. rankin. do you recall that your husband hired someone to help hand out leaflets about fair play for cuba on the streets of new orleans?* *mrs. oswald. he mentioned that he hired a boy to help him, by giving him some money to buy ice cream or something--i don't know. mr. rankin. i'll hand you what is marked as frank pizzo exhibit no. -a, which is a photograph, and ask you if you recognize your husband there, and also, any of the other men there in the picture?* *mrs. oswald (examining instrument mentioned). i recognize only my husband. mr. rankin. is your husband the man with the marks that sort of look like a "t" in light green?* mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. i ask you if you recognize anyone besides your husband in frank pizzo exhibit no. -b?* mrs. oswald. no. *no. [examining instrument mentioned.] no. mr. rankin. but you do recognize your husband there? mrs. oswald. yes--yes. mr. rankin. he has a green mark over his photograph, does he not? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. do you know whether or not your husband consulted any attorneys in new orleans while he was there?* *mrs. oswald. i do not know about this. mr. rankin. do you know of a clay bertrand, [spelling] b-e-r-t-r-a-n-d?* *mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. did your husband ever say anything about consulting an attorney about his discharge from the marines or about his american citizenship?* ** *mrs. oswald. he did not. mr. rankin. do you know whether or not your husband was in dallas in september between the d, the date that you left with mrs. paine, and the th of september--at any time?* *mrs. oswald. i do not know. mr. rankin. did he ever say anything about anything like that?* *mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. did you ever know a sylvia odio, [spelling] o-d-i-o?* *mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. you never heard of her?* *mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. sylvia odio is a woman in dallas who said that your husband, along with two cubans, came to see her under the name "leon oswald," on the evening of the th or the th of september . do you know anything about that?* **mrs. oswald. no; i do not know about this. mr. rankin. have you ever heard of her?* *mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. did you ever hear of a person by the name of rodriguez [spelling] r-o-d-r-i-g-u-e-z, that your husband was said to have known in new orleans, while you were there? do you know whether your husband ever knew a rodriguez [spelling] r-o-d-r-i-g-u-e-z in new orleans?* *mrs. oswald. he may have known him, but i don't know anything about it. mr. rankin. he never told you that he knew anyone like that?* *mrs. oswald. no; he did not tell me. mr. rankin. when you lived in new orleans and after your husband lost his job, did he stay away from home in the evenings much?* *mrs. oswald. he was not at home during the day time, but he was at home most of the time in the evenings. mr. rankin. and by being at home in the evenings, what time do you mean--from o'clock on, or o'clock, or what time?* *mrs. oswald. after . mr. rankin. did he ever show signs of having been drinking or being drunk when he came home?* *mrs. oswald. never. mr. rankin. did he ever talk about having seen some friends or some cubans or mexicans in the bar or some bar in new orleans?* ** *mrs. oswald. no; it's strange for me to hear that lee visited bars or that he drank. mr. rankin. did you know of his drinking at all in new orleans?* *mrs. oswald. i never did. mr. rankin. he was arrested in connection with the fair play for cuba matter around august , if you will recall. you may not remember the exact date, but i refresh your memory and call your attention to the fact that it was that date--august ?* *mrs. oswald. i know about this. mr. rankin. how did that come to your attention, how did you learn about it?* *mrs. oswald. that night i waited for him until o'clock in the morning. then, i went to bed. when he came in the morning, i asked him where he had been and he told me he was arrested by the police. mr. rankin. had he stayed out all night that way before?* ** mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. it hadn't ever happened before?** mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. you say it never happened that he would even stay out late in the evening?* mrs. oswald. no; sometimes he was delayed, but he would be home by o'clock. mr. rankin. did you ever hear your husband say anything about being associated with any pro-castro or anti-castro groups in dallas?* *mrs. oswald. i didn't know that he belonged to any organization in dallas. mr. rankin. did you know of any such associations or any associations with cubans after he returned from mexico city?* *mrs. oswald. i do not know about this. mr. rankin. did he ever mention sylvia odio to you or any name like that, that you recall?* ** *mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. now, when you testified before the commission before, you were asked what kind of a job your husband had at the minsk factory, do you recall that?* *mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. you said he read blueprints and translated them into the finished product. do you remember your husband saying anything like that to you?* ** *mrs. oswald. i don't think i testified to that. mr. rankin. you don't recall testifying to that?* mrs. oswald. i testified that he was a--slesar. mr. gregory. off the record, please? she names a trade and that russian word stands for locksmith, but i know that he was not a locksmith, i mean, from the description of work that he was doing. he was working at a factory where he was assembling details for--metallic details. he was a machinist apprentice working on parts for radio receivers. mr. rankin. he told the fbi at one time in one of the interviews that he was busy reading blueprints and translating them. mr. gregory, are you telling me what she says his job was or are you telling me what you know? mr. gregory. no; she's telling me, but mrs. oswald tells me that the technical name of his job was the russian word (spelling) s-l-e-s-a-r'. mr. rankin. now, will you describe, mrs. oswald, what he did in that job so it will be clearer than just that word. tell us what he did?* *mrs. oswald. i have never been at the plant where lee worked or in any factory, but from the description that lee gave me---- mr. rankin. tell us that?* ** *mrs. oswald. he was grinding details--detailed parts for small parts, small metallic parts for radio receivers, on a lathe. perhaps he was boasting about the importance of his work when he told you about reading the blueprints and translating them into the finished product. he may have actually done that kind of work, but i know nothing about that. mr. rankin. was the only work that he told you he was doing during the period that you were there in minsk, this job of grinding these parts on the lathe?* *mrs. oswald. while he and i lived together--yes. that was the kind of work that he was doing in minsk. mr. rankin. and that's all that you know of?* *mrs. oswald. that's all i know about his work. mr. rankin. now, turning to the period that your husband was in moscow in when he first came there, and, of course, you were married later than that, did he tell you about his experiences when he first came to moscow?* *mrs. oswald. he told me that for the most part he visited museums and studied the russian language. mr. rankin. did he say anything about the intourist guides, the women studied the russian language. mrs. oswald. the russian guides? mr. rankin. did he tell you about any of the others that he knew there?* *mrs. oswald. he did, but i don't remember their names, except rimma. the only reason i remember rimma sherikova is because she visited us in minsk. she did not come especially to see us, but she was passing through minsk and stopped to see us. mr. rankin. what did your husband tell you about rimma?* *mrs. oswald. that she was a very fine, pretty, smart young girl, and unfortunately, older than he is, and that she helped him a great deal. mr. rankin. did he tell you how she helped him?* *mrs. oswald. first of all, as an interpreter. mr. rankin. what else? *mrs. oswald. and that he spent time with her and did not feel lonesome. mr. rankin. did he say anything about rimma or the other intourist guides helping him with learning russian?* *mrs. oswald. yes; he did. mr. rankin. did he say how much they did that?* *mrs. oswald. no; he did not. mr. rankin. did he say anything about the guides helping him in dealing with the embassy about his citizenship or giving up his citizenship?* ** *mrs. oswald. no; he did not tell me about that. mr. rankin. did he say anything about the guides giving him any financial help?* *mrs. oswald. no; he did not tell me. mr. rankin. did your husband say anything about when he learned that he might be able to stay in russia, how he learned it? *mrs. oswald. no; he did not. he, lee, took part in radio broadcasts, propaganda in favor of the soviet union, which he felt helped him to get permission to stay in the soviet union. mr. rankin. did he say when he did that?* *mrs. oswald. that was before my time. mr. rankin. how did you learn about it?* *mrs. oswald. he told me about it. lee told me that the soviet union offered him soviet citizenship, but he turned it down. he told me that he turned it down. at the same time, other developments as i recall, left the impression with me that he actually wanted to become a soviet citizen, but i didn't connect the two. there is a discrepancy between the two, but at the time, i couldn't reconcile these apparent differences in what he said. mr. rankin. you know he told the reporters that he talked to in moscow in november, that the government was going to let him stay, but his diary says he didn't get that word until january the th of the following year. now, do you know anything about that, how that happened?* mrs. oswald. ? mr. rankin. in november is when he told the reporters, and it was january , , that he actually put it in his diary that he had the first learning of it?* mrs. oswald. that they would let him stay in the soviet union? mr. rankin. yes. mrs. oswald. newspaper reporters? mr. rankin. yes; newspaper reporters--miss johnson and miss mosby.* *mrs. oswald. he made the entry into his diary, i think, at a later date, and they may not be correct or precise--just one. mr. gregory. i think she's a little tired. she's saying many words, but i can't connect them. she says, "to be brief, i don't believe i know." mr. rankin. we will soon be through, mrs. oswald. there are just a few more questions.* when your husband said that he had spoken over the radio and he thought that helped him, did he tell you what he said over the radio?* ** *mrs. oswald. he spoke over the radio of how everything--how wonderful everything was in the soviet union, or what he thought they liked to hear. mr. rankin. and did you understand that he spoke that in moscow while he was there?* *mrs. oswald. yes; while he was in moscow. mr. rankin. that was during the period after he had first come to the country and before he came to minsk, is that right?* *mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. now, do you recall any more than you have told us about the time you had the interview with the mvd about your visa--what they said to you and what you said to them?* *mrs. oswald. first of all, colonel aksenov asked me why i wanted to go to america, "is it so bad here that you want to leave?" and i replied that i wanted to go to america with my husband and that i believe that i have that right. mr. rankin. what did they say to that?* *mrs. oswald. then he said, "you will simply have to wait because you are not the only one who wants to leave. you will have to wait your turn." mr. rankin. do you recall anything else that was said at that time?* *mrs. oswald. at that time i was pregnant and colonel aksenov suggested that may be it would be better for me to wait until the baby came. mr. rankin. what did you say to that?* *mrs. oswald. i told him that i would prefer to leave as soon as possible. mr. rankin. is that all you remember of the conversation?* *mrs. oswald. nothing of importance. mr. rankin. where did this conversation occur?* *mrs. oswald. in the mvd building in minsk. mr. rankin. and who was present besides you and colonel aksenov?* mrs. oswald. at first there were two military men who later left, and they accompanied me or rather they showed me to the room where colonel aksenov was. we were the only two in the room. mr. rankin. now, your husband said that before you both left for the united states, he had an interview with the mvd. do you recall that?* mrs. oswald. before we left where? mr. rankin. before you left the soviet union?* *mrs. oswald. i do not know about this. mr. rankin. do you recall anything like that while you were in moscow before you left for the united states?* *mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. you were never told about anything like that by your husband?* *mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. by anyone else?* mrs. oswald. nobody. mr. rankin. you were not present at any such meeting?* *mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. do you know of any meeting of that kind in minsk?* *mrs. oswald. he never told me that he had interviews. mr. rankin. he said he quarreled with them trying to expedite the visas, the exit permits, and where was that?* *mrs. oswald. in minsk. mr. rankin. and did he tell you whom he talked to when he quarreled with them about the exit visas?* *mrs. oswald. i do not know their names, but all the people that were empowered with issuance of the exit permits. mr. rankin. was that the time that you said he tried to get to see colonel aksenov and they wouldn't let him?* ** mrs. oswald. it could have happened before we moved because he apparently had a conversation with the colonel.** **i remember it was cold. mr. gregory. may i ask marina--will you mind to read the question? the reporter. "was that the time that you said he tried to get to see colonel aksenov and they wouldn't let him?" mr. rankin. i was asking about the meeting with the mvd. mr. gregory. lee meeting with the mvd in minsk? mr. rankin. yes--about the exit visas. mr. gregory. and you wanted to know the year and the month of the year? mr. rankin. no; i was first trying to find out what meeting she was talking about and whether it was the one she referred to later. mr. gregory. when she could not get the audience with the man? mr. rankin. that's right.* ** *mrs. oswald. it was approximately in january . mr. rankin. and did he tell you what happened at that meeting?* *mrs. oswald. he did not meet with--he did not get to see colonel aksenov. mr. rankin. but he did see someone else in there? *mrs. oswald. apparently he talked to someone who substituted or was inferior to colonel aksenov. mr. rankin. and what did he tell you happened at that time?* *mrs. oswald. lee told me that when he came to mvd he asked to see colonel aksenov, and the people in the office asked him the nature of the business he wanted to discuss with him, and he told them that it was about exit visas, and they told him that he could not see aksenov, but that they, whoever "they" were, were empowered to act on that question, but he insisted on seeing the colonel, and he did not get to see him. mr. rankin. then what happened?* *mrs. oswald. then he came home--then i went to mvd, then he sent me to mvd. i said, "i don't want to go there and he said, "i insist." then, i was afraid to go there, but i did go, and the colonel did not eat me up. mr. rankin. did you talk to the colonel about both your visa and your husband's at that time?* mrs. oswald. the conversation with colonel aksenov was to find out why the delay in the issuance of the exit permits. mr. rankin. that's all i have. senator cooper. there has been a good deal of testimony that you and your husband were good friends with the de mohrenschildt family?* mrs. oswald. yes. senator cooper. is it correct that when he came to your house on one occasion that he saw the rifle, your husband's rifle?* *mrs. oswald. i do not know about this. it is possible that i have shown the rifle to them. senator cooper. do you remember when mr. de mohrenschildt said something like this after the walker incident: "how could you miss it?" or something like that.* *mrs. oswald. de mohrenschildt--as soon as he opened the door, he said to lee, "how could you have missed, how could you have missed him?" senator cooper. do you have any explanation for that?* ** *mrs. oswald. i do not know whether lee told de mohrenschildt about shooting at walker, and then lee looked at me thinking--whether i told de mohrenschildt about it--i don't know. he even couldn't speak that evening. lee could not speak that evening. we were on the porch. senator cooper. did he later ask you if you had told de mohrenschildt?* *mrs. oswald. he asked me if i told de mohrenschildt about it and when i said i didn't, he said, "how did he guess it?" mr. gopadze. no; she said, "maybe you have told him." *mrs. oswald. then he said, "maybe you've told him about it", and then he added--he said, "how did he guess it?" senator cooper. de mohrenschildt said he had lived in minsk, did he ever talk to you about minsk?* ** *mrs. oswald. yes; he did say he lived in minsk when he was a small child. senator cooper. you said also you heard them talking on occasions, that is, you heard lee oswald and de mohrenschildt talking about russia, did you hear them talking about political problems, political affiliations?* *mrs. oswald. yes; they discussed politics. senator cooper. was de mohrenschildt living in dallas at the time of the assassination of president kennedy?* *mrs. oswald. he lived in haiti. mr. gopadze. do you know if he was in haiti? *mrs. oswald. i do not know whether he lived in dallas at the time of the assassination or whether he lived in haiti. senator cooper. could you think back, mrs. oswald, is there any fact which comes to your mind which would lead you to believe that any person or persons were associated with your husband in any plan to assassinate president kennedy, or you thought, governor connally?* *mrs. oswald. of course, i don't know anything about it. senator cooper. but my question was--not whether you knew. i asked you whether you had any facts which would lead you to believe that there was anyone?* ** *mrs. oswald. i do not know about this. senator cooper. one other question. did lee oswald ever say to you that he had any kind of connection with the cuban government or any of its agents?* *mrs. oswald. he did not tell me. senator cooper. i said one more, and this is the last one, i promise you. once you said that when you went to new orleans together, he said something like this: "i'm lost." if that's correct, what was he talking about? do you remember that?* ** *mrs. oswald. on that particular occasion he sat by the icebox or the frigidaire and he sat there and he had his head in his hands and he said, "i am lost." i believe that that was the result of all the failures of his. senator cooper. did you feel sympathy for him and love for him in those days?* mrs. oswald. yes; i felt sorry for him. i knew it was difficult for him with his family. i felt sorry for him. senator cooper. all right. senator russell. when you testified the second time in washington, mrs. oswald, that you didn't think mr. de mohrenschildt was as dangerous as he sounds--that was your personal opinion--what did you mean by that?* here it is: "mr. mohrenschildt once took us out to the fords' house. it was at new year's, i think--katya ford's house. it was either christmas or new year's. i don't think mr. de mohrenschildt is as dangerous as he sounds. that's my personal opinion." no one had said anything about him being dangerous, so why was that your opinion?** * mr. gregory. off the record. senator russell. she understood that. mr. gregory. this goes into the record, of course? senator russell. yes, sir. mr. gregory. i think she's hesitated---- senator russell. i think she should explain it. *mrs. oswald. george is such a big mouth. senator russell. let's let her testify, if you don't mind? mr. gregory. i'm translating what she said. senator russell. oh, is that what she said? i see. i'm sorry. i'm sorry--i didn't hear it. *mrs. oswald. george is such a loud mouth or big talker---- senator russell. big talker--that would be the equivalent, i'm sure. *mrs. oswald. i simply do not believe that--it is my intuition---- mr. gopadze. no; that point? *mrs. oswald. it is my opinion that people that talk too much do little. senator russell. and did he talk too much or talk very loud? i don't know mr. de mohrenschildt.** * mrs. oswald. very loud. *he jokes all the time and people don't know when he talks sense and when he jokes. **sometimes he would say something jokingly and people would think that he's telling the truth. senator russell. was that boasting about some imaginary achievement of his?* *mrs. oswald. it's simply his manner of speaking--of talking. it's his character. senator russell. he didn't talk then about his feats of any kind, about performing any great feats?* *mrs. oswald. no; he never did. senator russell. it was merely his tone of voice and his manner of expression that made him sound dangerous?** **mrs. oswald. he was boasting about it, but he never would follow through. mr. rankin. you might tell the full story. mrs. oswald. quite often he would be boasting about something big but he never did follow through. senator russell. so he did talk about great achievements most of the time?* **mrs. oswald. just like a fellow who is just a happy go-around man, a happy go-lucky man. senator russell. if there is nothing further, the commission thanks you very much for your assistance, and you, mr. gregory, and above all, the very remarkable reporter who has been able to stay with us from the beginning. the commission will now recess subject to the call of the chairman or chief justice warren. mrs. oswald. thank you very much. senator russell. thank you. (whereupon, at p.m., the president's commission adjourned.) transcriber's notes: punctuation and spelling were made consistent when a predominant preference was found in this book; otherwise they were not changed. misspellings in quoted evidence not changed; misspellings that could be due to mispronunciations were not changed. some simple typographical errors were corrected. inconsistent hyphenation of compound words retained. ambiguous end-of-line hyphens retained. occasional uses of "mr." for "mrs." and of "mrs." for "mr." corrected. dubious repeated words, (e.g., "what took place by way of of conversation?") retained. several unbalanced quotation marks not remedied. occasional periods that should be question marks not changed. occasional periods that should be commas, and commas that should be periods, were changed only when they clearly had been misprinted (at the end of a paragraph or following a speaker's name in small-caps at the beginning of a line). some commas and semi-colons were printed so faintly that they appear to be periods or colons: some were found and corrected, but some almost certainly remain. the index and illustrated exhibits volumes of this series may not be available at project gutenberg. asterisks in the marina oswald testimony have been reproduced as originally printed. page vii: no table of contents entry for "testimony of mrs. lee harvey oswald (resumed)" beginning on page . page : "is a photostat is a photostat" was printed that way. page : "will you tell us on what date you wrote or dictated exhibit ?" occurs twice. the second occurrence either was spoken by mr. rankin or is a typesetting error. page and elsewhere: "mr. specter" misprinted five times as "mr. spector"; corrected here. page : "these tall building on either side" should be "buildings". page : "contains angels of sight" is a misprint for "angles". page : one occurrence of "main street" was misprinted as "maine street"; corrected here. page : "dr. hume" is a misprint for "dr. humes". page : "the other hand, his left hand is on his lapel" was misprinted as "left had"; corrected here. page : "did the surveyor make that placement" misprinted as "surveyer"; corrected here. page : "those are mm., too" is a misprint for " mm." page : "implusive" probably is a misprint for "impulsive". pages and elsewhere: "mr. snyder" misprinted six times as "mr. synder"; corrected here. page : "exist visa" probably is a misprint for "exit visa". page : "would't" was printed that way. page : "name." is repeated, originally on the next line; looks like a misprint. page : "how could you tell us" possibly should be "now could". page : "do you thing that is a handicap" should be "think". page : "handwriting. it that yours?" should be "is". page : "handwriting it that?" should be "is". page : "i do not know which exhibit is." should be "it is". page : "miles and hour." should be "an". page : "take as much as minute" probably should be "as a minute". page : "whatsover" was printed that way. page : "did he every tell you that" should be "ever". page : 'i said, "i don't want to go there and he said, "i insist."' either is missing a closing quotation mark or has a spurious opening one. www.history-matters.com. transcriber's note: a three-page list of exhibit numbers has been omitted from this ebook. investigation of the assassination of president john f. kennedy hearings before the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy pursuant to executive order , an executive order creating a commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of the late president john f. kennedy and the subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and s.j. res. , th congress, a concurrent resolution conferring upon the commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas _volume_ i united states government printing office washington, d.c. u.s. government printing office, washington: for sale in complete sets by the superintendent of documents, u.s. government printing office washington, d.c., president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy chief justice earl warren, _chairman_ senator richard b. russell senator john sherman cooper representative hale boggs representative gerald r. ford mr. allen w. dulles mr. john j. mccloy j. lee rankin, _general counsel_ _assistant counsel_ francis w. h. adams joseph a. ball david w. belin william t. coleman, jr. melvin aron eisenberg burt w. griffin leon d. hubert, jr. albert e. jenner, jr. wesley j. liebeler norman redlich w. david slawson arlen specter samuel a. stern howard p. willens[a] [a] mr. willens also acted as liaison between the commission and the department of justice. _staff members_ phillip barson edward a. conroy john hart ely alfred goldberg murray j. laulicht arthur marmor richard m. mosk john j. o'brien stuart pollak alfredda scobey charles n. shaffer, jr. biographical information on the commissioners and the staff can be found in the commission's _report_. foreword on november , , president lyndon b. johnson signed executive order no. , creating a commission "to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of the late president john f. kennedy and the subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination." by the same executive order, the president appointed seven commissioners: earl warren, chief justice of the united states; richard b. russell, democratic senator from georgia; john sherman cooper, republican senator from kentucky; hale boggs, democratic congressman from louisiana and house majority whip; gerald r. ford, republican congressman from michigan; allen w. dulles, former director of the central intelligence agency; and john j. mccloy, former high commissioner of germany. the president designated chief justice warren as the commission's chairman. the findings of the commission, based on an examination of all the facts, are set forth in the separate volume entitled "report of the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy." an essential part of the investigation conducted by this commission has been the securing of sworn testimony from witnesses possessing information relevant to the inquiry. this testimony has been taken under the authority of senate joint resolution ( th cong., st sess.), enacted by congress on december , , which conferred upon the commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas. under the procedures adopted by the commission, some witnesses have appeared before members of the commission, others have been questioned under oath on depositions by members of the staff, and others have provided affidavits to the commission. beginning with its first witness on february , , the commission under these procedures took the testimony of approximately witnesses and received more than , exhibits into evidence. the testimony and exhibits obtained by the commission are printed in this and the succeeding volumes, organized in the following order: ( ) testimony before members of the commission, in the order in which it was taken. ( ) testimony by sworn deposition or affidavit, grouped into four general subject categories; the medical attention given to the president and the governor, identification of the assassin of president kennedy, the background of lee harvey oswald, and the killing of lee harvey oswald by jack l. ruby on november , . ( ) exhibits introduced in connection with the testimony before the commission in numerical order. ( ) exhibits introduced in connection with sworn depositions and affidavits, grouped alphabetically by name of witness. ( ) other exhibits introduced before the commission in numerical order. the transcripts of this testimony, prepared by qualified court reporters, were reviewed by members of the commission staff and, in most instances, by the witness concerned. editing of the transcript prior to printing in these volumes was confined to correction of stenographic errors and punctuation, and minor changes designed to improve the clarity and accuracy of the testimony. in the few cases indicated, brief deletions have been made of material which might be considered in poor taste and is clearly irrelevant to any facet of the commission's investigation. all the original transcripts prepared by the court reporters, of course, have been preserved and will be available for inspection under the same rules and regulations which will apply to all records of this commission. each volume contains a brief preface discussing the contents of the volume. in addition, each volume of testimony contains a table of contents with the names of the witnesses whose testimony appears in the volume, and the numbers of the exhibits introduced in connection with that testimony. each volume of exhibits contains a table of contents with short descriptions of the exhibits reproduced in the volume. volume xv contains a name index setting forth all references to persons (other than lee harvey oswald) appearing in the hearings volumes and an index setting forth all references to commission exhibits and deposition exhibits in these volumes. preface the testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume i: mrs. marina oswald, the widow of lee harvey oswald; mrs. marguerite oswald, oswald's mother; robert edward lee oswald, oswald's brother; and james herbert martin, who acted for a brief period as mrs. marina oswald's business manager. contents page foreword v preface vii testimony of-- mrs. lee harvey oswald mrs. marguerite oswald robert edward lee oswald james herbert martin commission exhibits introduced transcriber's note: three pages of exhibit numbers have been omitted from this ebook. hearings before the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy _monday, february , _ testimony of mrs. lee harvey oswald the president's commission met at : a.m. on february , , at maryland avenue ne., washington, d.c. present were chief justice earl warren, chairman; senator john sherman cooper, representative hale boggs, representative gerald r. ford, and allen w. dulles, members. also present were j. lee rankin, general counsel; john m. thorne, attorney for mrs. lee harvey oswald; william d. krimer and leon i. gopadze, interpreters. the chairman. well, mrs. oswald, did you have a good trip here? the commission will come to order, and at this time, i will make a short statement for the purpose of the meeting. a copy of this statement has been given to counsel for mrs. oswald, but for the record, i should like to read it. on november , , president lyndon b. johnson issued executive order no. appointing a commission "to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of the late president john f. kennedy, and the subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination." on december , , congress adopted joint resolution s.j. which authorizes the commission, or any member of the commission or any agent or agency designated by the commission for such purpose to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, and receive evidence. mr. rankin. mr. chairman, excuse me, the interpreter---- the chairman. i understood they have a copy and if they want to at the end he may do that. on january , , the commission adopted a resolution authorizing each member of the commission and its general counsel, j. lee rankin, to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, and receive evidence concerning any matter under investigation by the commission. the purpose of this hearing is to take the testimony of mrs. marina oswald, the widow of lee harvey oswald who, prior to his death, was charged with the assassination of president kennedy. since the commission is inquiring fully into the background of lee harvey oswald and those associated with him, it is the intention of the commission to ask mrs. marina oswald questions concerning lee harvey oswald and any and all matters relating to the assassination. the commission also intends to ask mrs. marina oswald questions relating to the assassination of president kennedy and the subsequent violent death of lee harvey oswald. mrs. marina oswald has been furnished with a copy of this statement and a copy of the rules adopted by the commission for the taking of testimony or the production of evidence. mrs. marina oswald has also been furnished with a copy of executive order no. and congressional resolution s.j. res. which set forth the general scope of the commission's inquiry and its authority for the examining witnesses and the receiving of evidence. the chairman. mrs. oswald, do you have an attorney, a lawyer? mrs. oswald. yes. the chairman. and your lawyer is mr. thorne? mrs. oswald. yes. the chairman. he is the only lawyer you wish to represent you here? mrs. oswald. yes. the chairman. and may i ask you, mr. thorne, if you have received a copy of this? mr. rankin. mr. chairman, that is the copy he received there. mr. thorne. i have read a copy of it, mr. chief justice, yes, sir. the chairman. are there any questions about it? mr. thorne. there are no questions. the chairman. very well. very well, we will proceed to swear mrs. oswald as a witness. will you please rise, mrs. oswald. (the chairman administered the oath to the witness, mrs. oswald, through the interpreter.) the chairman. mr. reporter, will you rise, please, and be sworn. (the chairman administered the oath to the interpreter and the stenotype reporter, following which all questions propounded to the witness and her answers thereto, were duly translated through the interpreter.) the chairman. now, mr. thorne and mrs. oswald, i want to say to you that we want to see that mrs. oswald's rights are protected in every manner and you are entitled to converse with her at any time that you desire. you are entitled to give her any advice that you want, either openly or in private; if you feel that her rights are not being protected you are entitled to object to the commission and have a ruling upon it, and at the conclusion of her testimony if you have any questions that you would like to ask her in verification of what she has said you may feel free to ask them. after her testimony has been completed, a copy will be furnished to you so that if there are any errors, corrections or omissions you may call it to our attention, is that satisfactory to you? mr. thorne. very satisfactory, mr. chairman. the chairman. i might say also to her we propose to ask her questions for about hour, and then take a short recess for her refreshment, and then we will convene again until about : . at : we will recess until o'clock, and then we may take her to her hotel where she can see her baby and have a little rest, and we will return at o'clock, and we will take evidence until about : . if at any time otherwise you should feel tired or feel that you need a rest, you may feel free to say so and we will take care of it. mrs. oswald. thank you. the chairman. the questions will be asked of you by mr. j. lee rankin, who is the general counsel of the commission. i think now we are ready to proceed, are we not, mr. rankin? mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, you be at your ease, and the interpreter will tell you what i ask and you take your time about your answers. will you state your name, please? mrs. oswald. marina, my name is marina nikolaevna oswald. my maiden name was prussakova. mr. rankin. where do you live, mrs. oswald? mrs. oswald. at the present time i live in dallas. mr. rankin. and where in dallas? mrs. oswald. mr. thorne knows my address. mr. thorne. ferrar street, dallas, dallas county, tex. mr. rankin. do you live with friends there? mrs. oswald. i live with mr. jim martin and his family. mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, do you have a family? mrs. oswald. i have two children, two girls, june will be years old in february, and rachel is months old. mr. rankin. are you the widow of the late lee harvey oswald? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, did you write in russian a story of your experiences in the united states? mrs. oswald. yes, i have. i think that you are familiar with it. mr. rankin. you furnished it to the commission, did you not, or a copy of it? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. will you describe for the commission how you prepared this document in russian that you furnished to us? mrs. oswald. i wrote this document not specifically for this commission, but merely for myself. perhaps there are, therefore, not enough facts for your purpose in that document. this is the story of my life from the time i met him in minsk up to the very last days. mr. rankin. and by "him" who did you mean? mrs. oswald. lee harvey oswald. mr. rankin. did you have any assistance in preparing this document in russian? mrs. oswald. no, no one. mr. rankin. are all the statements in that document true insofar as you know? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. since your husband's death and even back to the time of the assassination of president kennedy, you have had a number of interviews with people from the secret service and the fbi, have you not? mrs. oswald. yes, i did. mr. rankin. we have a record of more than such interviews, and i assume you cannot remember the exact number or all that was said in those interviews, is that true? mrs. oswald. i don't know how many there were. mr. rankin. as far as you can recall now, do you know of anything that is not true in those interviews that you would like to correct or add to? mrs. oswald. yes, i would like to correct some things because not everything was true. mr. rankin. will you tell us---- mrs. oswald. it is not just that it wasn't true, but not quite exact. mr. rankin. do you recall some of the information that you gave in those interviews that was incorrect that you would like to correct now? will you tell us that? mrs. oswald. at the present time, i can't remember any specific instance, but perhaps in the course of your questioning if it comes up i will say so. mr. rankin. do you recall the date that you arrived in the united states with your husband, lee harvey oswald? mrs. oswald. on the th of june, --i am not quite certain as to the year--' or ' , i think ' . mr. rankin. how did you come to this country? mrs. oswald. from moscow via poland, germany, and holland we came to amsterdam by train. and from amsterdam to new york by ship, and new york to dallas by air. mr. rankin. do you recall the name of the ship on which you came? mrs. oswald. i think it was the ss _rotterdam_ but i am not sure. mr. rankin. what time of the day did you arrive in new york? mrs. oswald. it was--about noon or p.m., thereabouts. it is hard to remember the exact time. mr. rankin. how long did you stay in new york at that time? mrs. oswald. we stayed that evening and the next hours in a hotel in new york, and then we left the following day by air. mr. rankin. do you recall the name of the hotel where you stayed? mrs. oswald. i don't know the name of the hotel but it is in the times square area, not far from the publishing offices of the new york times. mr. rankin. what did you do during your stay in new york? mrs. oswald. that evening we just walked around the city to take a look at it. in the morning i remained in the hotel while lee left in order to arrange for tickets, and so forth. mr. rankin. did you visit anyone or have visitors at your hotel during that period? mrs. oswald. we didn't have any visitors but i remember that with lee we visited some kind of an office, on official business, perhaps it had something to do with immigration or with the tickets. lee spoke to them in english and i didn't understand it. mr. rankin. would that be a travelers' aid bureau or red cross? mrs. oswald. i don't know. mr. rankin. do you know whether or not you or your husband received any financial assistance for the trip to texas at that time? mrs. oswald. i don't know exactly where lee got the money, but he said that his brother robert had given him the money. but the money for the trip from the soviet union to new york was given to us by the american embassy in moscow. mr. rankin. do you recall what time of the day you left on the flight to texas? mrs. oswald. i think that by about p.m. we were already in texas. mr. rankin. did you go to dallas or fort worth at that time? mrs. oswald. in dallas we were met by the brother, robert, he lived in fort worth, and he took us from dallas to fort worth and we stopped at the house. mr. rankin. who else stayed at robert's house at that time besides your family? mrs. oswald. his family and no one else. mr. rankin. what did his family consist of at that time? mrs. oswald. he and his wife and two children, a boy and a girl. mr. rankin. how long did you stay at robert's? mrs. oswald. about to - / months--perhaps longer, but no longer than months. mr. rankin. were your relations and your husband's with robert pleasant at that time? mrs. oswald. yes, they were very good. his brother's relationship to us was very good. mr. rankin. would you briefly describe what you did during that time when you were at robert's? mrs. oswald. the first time we got there we were, of course, resting for about a week, and i was busy, of course, with my little girl who was then very little. and in my free time, of course, i helped in the household. mr. rankin. did your husband do anything around the house or did he seek work right away? mrs. oswald. for about a week he was merely talking and took a trip to the library. that is it. mr. rankin. then did he seek work in fort worth? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. and when did he find his first job there? mrs. oswald. while we were with robert. it seems it was at the end of the second month that lee found work. but at this time i don't remember the date exactly but his mother who lived in fort worth at that time rented a room and she proposed that we spend some time with her, that we live with her for some time. mr. rankin. did you discuss with your husband this proposal of your mother-in-law to have you live with her? mrs. oswald. well, she made the proposal to my husband, not to me. of course, i found out about it. mr. rankin. did you and he have any discussion about it after you found out about it? mrs. oswald. yes, of course. mr. rankin. you recall that discussion? mrs. oswald. no. i only remember the fact. mr. rankin. did he find work after you left robert's then? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. you did move to be with your mother-in-law, lived with her for a time? mrs. oswald. yes, about weeks. and then after weeks lee did not want to live with her any more and he rented an apartment. mr. rankin. do you know the reason why he did not want to live there any more? mrs. oswald. it seemed peculiar to me and didn't want to believe it but he did not love his mother, she was not quite a normal woman. now, i know this for sure. mr. rankin. did he tell you that at the time? mrs. oswald. he talked about it but since he spoke in english to his mother, i didn't understand it. there were quite a few scenes when he would return from work he didn't want to talk to her. perhaps she thought i was the reason for the fact that lee did not want to talk to her. and, of course, for a mother this is painful and i told him that he should be more attentive to his mother but he did not change. i think that one of the reasons for this was that she talked a great deal about how much she had done to enable lee to return from russia, and lee felt that he had done most of--the greatest effort in that respect and didn't want to discuss it. mr. rankin. where did he find work at that time? mrs. oswald. of course, if i had been told now i would have remembered it because i have learned some english but at that time i didn't know, but lee told me that it wasn't far from mercedes street where we lived, and it was really common labor connected with some kind of metal work, something for buildings. mr. rankin. did he ever say whether he enjoyed that work? mrs. oswald. he didn't like it. mr. rankin. do you recall how long he stayed at that job? mrs. oswald. i don't know but it seemed to me that he worked there for about or months. perhaps longer. dates are one of my problems. mr. rankin. do you know whether he left that job voluntarily or was discharged? mrs. oswald. he told me that he had been discharged but i don't know why. mr. rankin. when you left the mother-in-law's house where did you go? mrs. oswald. i have already said that we moved to mercedes street. mr. rankin. did you have an apartment there? mrs. oswald. yes, we rented an apartment in a duplex. mr. rankin. do you recall the address on mercedes street? mrs. oswald. no, i don't remember the exact number. mr. rankin. will you describe the apartment, how many rooms it had? mrs. oswald. living room, kitchen, bath, and one bedroom. mr. rankin. this was the first time since you had come to this country then that you had an opportunity to have a home of your own, is that right? mrs. oswald. no, we had our own home in russia. mr. rankin. did your husband work a full day at that time on this job? mrs. oswald. yes, sometimes he even worked on saturdays. mr. rankin. what did you do when he came home, did he help you with housework? mrs. oswald. yes. he frequently went to a library. he read a great deal. mr. rankin. do you recall any of the books that he read at that time? mrs. oswald. no. i only know that they were books more of a historical nature rather than fiction or literature. mr. rankin. in your story in russian you relate the fact that he read a great deal of the time. could you describe to the commission just how that was? did he go off by himself to read or how did he handle that? mrs. oswald. he would bring a book from a library, sit in the living room and read. i was busy with housework, and that is the way it happened. mr. rankin. did you have differences between you about the time that he spent reading rather than devoting it to you or the other members of the family? mrs. oswald. no. we did have quarrels about his relationship to his mother, the fact that he didn't want to change his relationship to his mother. i know that he read so much that when we lived in new orleans he used to read sometimes all night long and in order not to disturb me he would be sitting in the bathroom for several hours reading. mr. rankin. did your quarrels start at that time when you were at mercedes street the first time. mrs. oswald. yes, we didn't have many quarrels. mr. rankin. when you were at mercedes street did you have robert visit you or did you visit him? mrs. oswald. no, he came to us sometimes. mr. rankin. do you recall seeing any guns at mercedes street while you were there? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. did your mother-in-law come to see you at mercedes street? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. will you describe the relationship between your husband and your mother-in-law while he was at mercedes street? mrs. oswald. she did not want us to move away to mercedes street, and lee did not want to remain with her and did not even want her to visit us after that. lee did not want her to know the address to which we were moving and robert helped us in the move. i felt very sorry for her. sometime after that she visited us while lee was at work and i was quite surprised wondering about how she found out our address. and then we had a quarrel because he said to me, "why did you open the door for her, i don't want her to come here any more." mr. rankin. during this period did your husband spend much time with the baby, june? mrs. oswald. yes. he loved children very much. mr. rankin. did you obtain a television set at that time? mrs. oswald. lee wanted to buy a television set on credit. he then returned it. should i speak a little louder? mr. rankin. did robert help any with the money or just in guaranteeing the payments? mrs. oswald. i think that he only guaranteed the payments. mr. rankin. do you recall how much the television set cost? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. so far as you know it was paid for out of your husband's income? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. were you still at mercedes street when he lost his job with the welding company? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. did he try to find another job in fort worth then? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. do you know how much he looked for jobs before he found one then? mrs. oswald. he looked for work for some time but he could not find it and then some russian friends of ours helped him find some work in dallas. mr. rankin. how long was he out of work? mrs. oswald. it seems to me it was about weeks; hard to remember, perhaps that long. mr. rankin. where did he find work in dallas, do you remember the name? mrs. oswald. i know it was some kind of a printing company which prepares photographs for newspapers. mr. rankin. was he working with the photographic department of that company? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. was he an apprentice in that work trying to learn it? mrs. oswald. yes, at first he was an apprentice and later he worked. mr. rankin. do you know what his income was when he was working for the welding company? mrs. oswald. i think it was about $ a month, i don't know. i know it was a dollar and a quarter an hour. mr. rankin. did he work much overtime at that time? mrs. oswald. not too much but sometimes he did work saturdays. mr. rankin. do you recall how much he received as pay at the printing company? mrs. oswald. a dollar forty an hour. mr. rankin. how many hours did he work a week, do you recall? mrs. oswald. he usually worked until p.m. but sometimes he worked later, and on saturdays, too. mr. rankin. the ordinary work week at that time was the -day week then, and the saturdays would be an overtime period? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. who were the russian friends who helped your husband find this job in dallas? mrs. oswald. george bouhe. mr. rankin. did this friend and other russian friends visit you at mercedes street? mrs. oswald. yes. when we lived at fort worth we became acquainted with peter gregory, he is a russian, he lives in fort worth and through him we became acquainted with others. mr. rankin. will you tell us insofar as you recall, the friends that you knew in fort worth? mrs. oswald. our first acquaintance was gregory. through him i met gali clark, mrs. elena hall. that is all in fort worth. and then we met george bouhe in dallas, and anna meller, and anna ray and katya ford. mr. rankin. by your answer do you mean that some of those people you met in dallas and some in fort worth? mrs. oswald. george de mohrenschildt--this was both in fort worth and dallas, the names of my recital but they were well acquainted with each other, even though some lived in dallas and some lived in fort worth. mr. rankin. will you please sort them out for us and tell us those you met in dallas? mrs. oswald. you mean by the question, who out of these russians lives in dallas? mr. rankin. or which ones you met in dallas as distinguished from those you had already met in fort worth? mrs. oswald. in fort worth i met the people from dallas. there was george bouhe, george de mohrenschildt--no. anna meller and george bouhe only, they were from dallas, but i met them in fort worth. mr. rankin. did these friends visit you at your home in fort worth? mrs. oswald. yes, sometimes they came to visit us when they were in dallas, they came to us. sometimes they made a special trip to come and see us. mr. rankin. did you ever visit them in their homes? mrs. oswald. yes, when we lived in fort worth we went to dallas several times to visit them. mr. rankin. when you made these visits did you go to spend an evening or a considerable part of the time or were they short visits? can you describe that? mrs. oswald. we used to come early in the morning and leave at night. we would spend the entire day with them. we went there by bus. mr. rankin. did you have an automobile of your own at any time during this period? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. did any of these people have meals in your home when they visited you? mrs. oswald. no. they usually brought--they usually came for short visits and they brought their own favorite vegetables such as cucumbers, george liked cucumbers. mr. rankin. when you moved to dallas, where did you live the first time? mrs. oswald. i did not move to dallas together with lee. lee went to dallas when he found the job, and i remained in fort worth and lived with elena hall. mr. rankin. for how long a period did you live with mrs. hall? mrs. oswald. i think that it was about a month and a half. mr. rankin. during that month and a half what did your husband do? mrs. oswald. he had a job. he was working. he would call me up over the telephone but how he spent his time, i don't know. mr. rankin. do you know during that month and a half where he lived? mrs. oswald. at first, i know that he rented a room in the ymca but very shortly thereafter he rented an apartment. but where i don't know. mr. rankin. during that month and a half did he come and see you and the baby? mrs. oswald. yes, two or three times he came to see us because he had no car. it was not very easy. mr. rankin. were these trips to see you on the weekends? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. when he came did he also stay at the hall's? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. when you were staying at the hall's did you pay them for your room and your meals? mrs. oswald. no. no, she was very friendly toward us and she tried to help us. mr. rankin. what did you and your husband do when he came to see you? did he spend his time with you there in the home or did you go some place? mrs. oswald. no, we didn't go anywhere. mr. rankin. did he do any reading there? mrs. oswald. no. i remember that it was only a couple of times that he came for a weekend. generally, he only came for a very short period of time, because he would come together with our friends, and they could not stay very long. mr. rankin. when he came during that period did he discuss what he had been doing in dallas, his work and other things? mrs. oswald. he liked his work very much. mr. rankin. after this month and a half did he find a place for you all to live together? mrs. oswald. yes, but it wasn't a problem there to find a place, no problem there to find a place. mr. rankin. did you then move to a home in dallas? mrs. oswald. yes, on elsbeth, elsbeth street in dallas. mr. rankin. do you remember the number? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. how did you move your things from mrs. hall's to the place on elsbeth street? mrs. oswald. a friend who had a car helped us--i don't remember his name, taylor, gary taylor. the chairman. suppose we take a recess now for about minutes to allow mrs. oswald to refresh herself. (short recess.) the chairman. the commission may be in order. mr. rankin. did that require one or more trips to move your things from fort worth to dallas when you went to elsbeth street? mrs. oswald. one trip was enough. mr. rankin. did you observe any guns in your things when you moved? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. what kind of place did you have at elsbeth street, was it rooms or an apartment? mrs. oswald. an apartment. mr. rankin. how many rooms in the apartment? mrs. oswald. one living room, a bedroom, a kitchen, and the bathroom. it sounds very small for all of you but for us it was quite sufficient. mr. rankin. did you have a telephone there? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. do you recall what rent you paid? mrs. oswald. it seems to me that it was $ , plus the utilities. mr. rankin. that would be $ a month? mrs. oswald. yes, and electricity and gas but the water was free. sixty dollars a month including water. mr. rankin. did your husband help you with the housework at that address? mrs. oswald. yes, he always helped. mr. rankin. what about his reading habits there, were they the same? mrs. oswald. yes, about the same. mr. rankin. can you tell us a little more fully about his reading? did he spend several hours each evening in this reading? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. do you recall any of the books that he read at elsbeth street? mrs. oswald. no. he had two books, two thick books on the history of the united states. mr. rankin. did your husband come home for a midday meal? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. did you go out in the evenings? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. where did you go? mrs. oswald. sometimes we went shopping to stores, and movies, though lee really went to the movies himself. he wanted to take me but i did not understand english. then on weekends we would go to a lake not far away or to a park or to a cafe for some ice cream. mr. rankin. when you went to the lake or the park did you take food with you and have a picnic? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. how did you get to the lake or the park, by bus or car, or what means of transportation? mrs. oswald. it was only minutes away, minutes walking time from us. mr. rankin. were either you or your husband taking any schooling at that time? mrs. oswald. lee took english courses or typing courses. mr. rankin. during what days of the week were these typing courses? mrs. oswald. it was three days a week. i don't remember exactly what the days were. it seems to me it was day at the beginning of the week and days at the end of the week that he took these night courses. mr. rankin. would it help you to recall if i suggested they were monday, tuesday, and thursday? mrs. oswald. it seems to me that is the way it was. i know it was on monday. mr. rankin. do you recall what hours of the evening he was supposed to be at these classes? mrs. oswald. it seems that it was from until . mr. rankin. about what time would he get home from work? mrs. oswald. about to : . mr. rankin. then would you eat your evening meal? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. how soon after that would he leave for the class? mrs. oswald. when lee took his courses he generally did not come home for dinner, usually he didn't. mr. rankin. did he practice his typewriting at home at all? mrs. oswald. at home, no. but he had a book, a textbook on typing which he would review when he was at home. mr. rankin. how soon after the class was over did he come home ordinarily? mrs. oswald. nine o'clock. mr. rankin. did he tell you anything about friends that he met at these classes? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. while you were at elsbeth street do you recall seeing any guns in your apartment? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. do you remember exhibiting any guns to the de mohrenschildt's while you were at elsbeth street? mrs. oswald. that was on neely street, perhaps you are confused, this was on neely street. mr. rankin. when did you move to neely street from the elsbeth street apartment? mrs. oswald. in january after the new year. i don't remember exactly. mr. rankin. do you remember why you moved from elsbeth to neely street? mrs. oswald. i like it better on neely street. we had a porch there and that was more convenient for the child. mr. rankin. what size apartment did you have on neely street? mrs. oswald. the same type of apartment. mr. rankin. was the only difference the terrace then? mrs. oswald. yes, except that it was on the second floor. it was a second-floor apartment. mr. rankin. was the elsbeth street apartment a first-floor apartment? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. what about the rent? was there a difference in rent between the two places? mrs. oswald. no, it was the same rent. it is perhaps even less. it seems to me it was $ . mr. rankin. did you have any differences with your husband while you were at neely street? mrs. oswald. no. well, there are always some reasons for some quarrel between a husband and wife, not everything is always smooth. mr. rankin. i had in mind if there was any violence or any hitting of you. did that occur at neely street? mrs. oswald. no. that was on elsbeth street. mr. rankin. do you recall what brought that about? mrs. oswald. not quite. i am trying to remember. it seems to me that it was at that time that lee began to talk about his wanting to return to russia. i did not want that and that is why we had quarrels. mr. rankin. did you have discussions between you about this idea of returning to russia? mrs. oswald. yes. lee wanted me to go to russia. i told him that that--lee wanted me to go to russia, and i told him that if he wanted me to go then that meant that he didn't love me, and that in that case what was the idea of coming to the united states in the first place. lee would say that it would be better for me if i went to russia. i did not know why. i did not know what he had in mind. he said he loved me but that it would be better for me if i went to russia, and what he had in mind i don't know. mr. rankin. do you know when he first started to talk about your going to russia? mrs. oswald. on elsbeth street. mr. rankin. do you remember any occasion which you thought caused him to start to talk that way? mrs. oswald. no, i don't. mr. rankin. do you know why he started to hit you about that? mrs. oswald. now, i think that i know, although at that time i didn't. i think that he was very nervous and just this somehow relieved his tension. mr. rankin. did you observe sometime when you thought he changed? mrs. oswald. i would say that immediately after coming to the united states lee changed. i did not know him as such a man in russia. mr. rankin. will you describe how you observed these changes and what they were as you saw them? mrs. oswald. he helped me as before, but he became a little more of a recluse. he did not like my russian friends and he tried to forbid me to have anything to do with them. he was very irritable, sometimes for a trifle, for a trifling reason. mr. rankin. did he tell you why he did not like your russian friends? mrs. oswald. i don't know why he didn't like them. i didn't understand. at least that which he said was completely unfounded. he simply said some stupid or foolish things. mr. rankin. will you tell us the stupid things that he said? mrs. oswald. well, he thought that they were fools for having left russia; they were all traitors. i would tell him he was in the same position being an american in america but there were really no reasons but just irritation. he said that they all only like money, and everything is measured by money. it seems to me that perhaps he was envious of them in the sense they were more prosperous than he was. when i told him, when i would say that to him he did not like to hear that. perhaps i shouldn't say these foolish things and i feel kind of uncomfortable to talk about the foolish things that happened or what he said foolish things. this is one of the reasons why i don't know really the reasons for these quarrels because sometimes the quarrels were just trifles. it is just that lee was very unrestrained and very explosive at that time. mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, we will ask you to be very frank with us. it isn't for the purpose of embarrassing you or your husband that we ask you these things but it might help us to understand and even if you will tell us the foolish and stupid things it may shed some light on the problem. you understand that? mrs. oswald. i understand you are not asking these questions out of curiosity but for a reason. mr. rankin. did your husband indicate any particular russian friends that he disliked more than others? mrs. oswald. he liked de mohrenschildt but he--because he was a strong person, but only de mohrenschildt. he did not like bouhe or anna meller. mr. rankin. did you ever tell him you liked these people? mrs. oswald. yes, i told him all the time that i liked these people and that is why he was angry at me and would tell me that i was just like they were. at one time i left him and went to my friends because he put me into--put me on the spot by saying, "well, if you like your friends so much then go ahead and live with them," and he left me no choice. mr. rankin. when was this, mrs. oswald? mrs. oswald. on elsbeth street. mr. rankin. how long were you gone from him then? mrs. oswald. one week. mr. rankin. did he ask you to return? mrs. oswald. yes. i took june and i went to anna meller, took a cab and went there. i spent several days with her. lee didn't know where i was but he called up and about or days after i came to and we met at de mohrenschildt's house and he asked me to return home. i, of course, did not want a divorce but i told him it would be better to get a divorce rather than to continue living and quarreling this way. after all this is only a burden on a man if two people live together and fight. i simply wanted to show him, too, that i am not a toy. that a woman is a little more complicated. that you cannot trifle with her. mr. rankin. did you say anything at that time about how he should treat you if you returned? mrs. oswald. yes. i told him if he did not change his character, then it would become impossible to continue living with him. because if there should be such quarrels continuously that would be crippling for the children. mr. rankin. what did he say to that? mrs. oswald. then he said that it would be--it was very hard for him. that he could not change. that i must accept him, such as he was. and he asked me to come back home with him right on that day but he left feeling bad because i did not go and remained with my friend. mr. rankin. what did you say about accepting him as he was? mrs. oswald. i told him i was not going to. of course, such as he was for me he was good, but i wanted simply for the sake of the family that he would correct his character. it isn't that i didn't mean to say he was good for me, i meant to say that i could stand him, but for the sake of the children i wanted him to improve his behavior. mr. rankin. then did he get in touch with you again? mrs. oswald. at that time there was very little room at anna meller's and it was very uncomfortable and i left and went to katya ford whose husband at that time happened to be out of town on business. i spent several days with katya ford but then when her husband returned i did not want to remain with her. and it was on a sunday morning then when i moved over to anna ray. lee called me and said he wanted to see me, that he had come by bus and he wanted to see me and he came that evening and he cried and said that he wanted me to return home because if i did not return he did not want to continue living. he said he didn't know how to love me in any other way and that he will try to change. mr. rankin. while you were at mrs. ford's did she go to the hospital? mrs. oswald. no. i think that you are confused--this was elena hall in fort worth, she was ill and went to the hospital. it is not very interesting to hear all that. somewhat boring. mr. rankin. do you recall the manner in which lee brought up the idea of your going to russia alone? mrs. oswald. quite simply he said it was very hard for him here. that he could not have a steady job. it would be better for me because i could work in russia. that was all. mr. rankin. did you understand when he suggested it that he proposed that you go and he stay? mrs. oswald. yes. now, i think i know why he had in mind to start his foolish activity which could harm me but, of course, at that time he didn't tell me the reason. it is only now that i understand it. at that time when i would ask him he would get angry because he couldn't tell me. mr. rankin. what would you say to him at that time? mrs. oswald. i told him at that time that i am agreeable to going if he could not live with me. but he kept on repeating that he wanted to live with me but that it would be better for me, but when i wanted to know the reason he would not tell me. mr. rankin. is there something that you have learned since that caused you to believe that this suggestion was related to trying to provide for you or to be sure that you wouldn't be hurt by what he was going to do? mrs. oswald. at that time i didn't know this. i only saw that he was in such a state that he was struggling and perhaps did not understand himself. i thought that i was the reason for that. mr. rankin. did he have a job then? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. did you feel that you were getting along on what he was earning? mrs. oswald. of course. mr. rankin. were you urging him to earn more so that he could provide more for the family? mrs. oswald. no. we had enough. mr. rankin. you were not complaining about the way you were living? mrs. oswald. no. i think that my friends had thought, and it was also written in the newspapers that we lived poorly because for americans $ appears to be very little. but i have never lived in any very luxurious way and, therefore, for me this was quite sufficient. some of the others would say, "well here, you don't have a car or don't have this or that." but for me it was sufficient. sometimes lee would tell me i was just like my friends, that i wanted to have that which they had. that i preferred them to him because they give me more, but that is not true. mr. rankin. did you understand when he suggested you return to russia that he was proposing to break up your marriage? mrs. oswald. i told him that i would go to russia if he would give me a divorce, but he did not want to give me a divorce. mr. rankin. did he say why? mrs. oswald. he said that if he were to give me a divorce that that would break everything between us, which he didn't want. that he wanted to keep me as his wife, but i told him that if he wants to remain in the united states i want to be free in russia. mr. rankin. during this period did he appear to be more excited and nervous? mrs. oswald. not particularly, but the later time he was more excited and more nervous but it was quite a contrast between the way he was in russia. mr. rankin. by the later time that you just referred to what do you mean? can you give us some approximate date? mrs. oswald. when we went to neely street. the chairman. i think this is a good time to take our luncheon recess now. so, we will adjourn until o'clock. mrs. oswald. thank you. (whereupon, at : p.m., the president's commission recessed.) afternoon session testimony of mrs. lee harvey oswald resumed the president's commission reconvened at p.m. the chairman. all right. let us proceed. (the chairman administered the oath to alvin i. mills, stenotype reporter.) mr. rankin. mr. reporter, do you have the last questions? in the future, would you do that, so we can refresh the witness about the last couple of questions on her testimony? i think it will make it easier for her, if she doesn't have to try to remember all the time. mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, as i recall you were telling us about these developments at neely street when you found that your husband was suggesting that you go back to russia alone and you discussed that matter, and you thought it had something to do with the idea he had, which i understood you have discovered as you looked back or thought back later but didn't know at the time fully. is that right? mrs. oswald. that is correct. mr. rankin. could you tell us those things that you observed that caused you to think he had something in mind at that time, and i will ask you later, after you tell us, those that you discovered since or that you have obtained more light on since. mrs. oswald. at that time i did not think anything about it. i had no reasons to think that he had something in mind. i did not understand him at that time. mr. rankin. do you recall the first time that you observed the rifle? mrs. oswald. that was on neely street. i think that was in february. mr. rankin. how did you learn about it? did you see it some place in the apartment? mrs. oswald. yes, lee had a small room where he spent a great deal of time, where he read--where he kept his things, and that is where the rifle was. mr. rankin. was it out in the room at that time, as distinguished from in a closet in the room? mrs. oswald. yes, it was open, out in the open. at first i think--i saw some package up on the top shelf, and i think that that was the rifle. but i didn't know. and apparently later he assembled it and had it in the room. mr. rankin. when you saw the rifle assembled in the room, did it have the scope on it? mrs. oswald. no, it did not have a scope on it. mr. rankin. did you have any discussion with your husband about the rifle when you first saw it? mrs. oswald. of course i asked him, "what do you need a rifle for? what do we need that for?" he said that it would come in handy some time for hunting. and this was not too surprising because in russia, too, we had a rifle. mr. rankin. in russia did you have a rifle or a shotgun? mrs. oswald. i don't know the difference. one and the other shoots. you men. that is your business. the chairman. my wife wouldn't know the difference, so it is all right. mrs. oswald. i have never served in the army. mr. rankin. did you discuss what the rifle cost with your husband? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. was the rifle later placed in a closet in the apartment at neely street? mrs. oswald. no, it was always either in a corner, standing up in a corner or on a shelf. mr. rankin. do you know what happened to the gun that you had in russia? was it brought over to this country? mrs. oswald. no, he sold it there. i did not say so when i had the first interviews. you must understand this was my husband. i didn't want to say too much. mr. rankin. is this rifle at neely street the only rifle that you know of that your husband had after you were married to him? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. did you ever show that rifle to the de mohrenschildts? mrs. oswald. i know that de mohrenschildts had said that the rifle had been shown to him, but i don't remember that. mr. rankin. do you recall your husband taking the rifle away from the apartment on neely street at any time? mrs. oswald. you must know that the rifle--it isn't as if it was out in the open. he would hang a coat or something to mask its presence in the room. and sometimes when he walked out, when he went out in the evening i didn't know, because i didn't go into that room very often. i don't know whether he took it with him or not. mr. rankin. did you ever see him clean the rifle? mrs. oswald. yes. i said before i had never seen it before. but i think you understand. i want to help you, and that is why there is no reason for concealing anything. i will not be charged with anything. mr. gopadze. she says she was not sworn in before. but now inasmuch as she is sworn in, she is going to tell the truth. mr. rankin. did you see him clean the rifle a number of times? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. could you help us by giving some estimate of the times as you remember it? mrs. oswald. about four times--about four or five times, i think. mr. rankin. did your husband ever tell you why he was cleaning the--that is, that he had been using it and needed to be cleaned after use? mrs. oswald. no, i did not ask him, because i thought it was quite normal that when you have a rifle you must clean it from time to time. mr. rankin. did you ever observe your husband taking the rifle away from the apartment on neely street? mrs. oswald. now, i think that he probably did sometimes, but i never did see it. you must understand that sometimes i would be in the kitchen and he would be in his room downstairs, and he would say bye-bye, i will be back soon, and he may have taken it. he probably did. perhaps he purely waited for an occasion when he could take it away without my seeing it. mr. rankin. did you ever observe that the rifle had been taken out of the apartment at neely street--that is, that it was gone? mrs. oswald. before the incident with general walker, i know that lee was preparing for something. he took photographs of that house and he told me not to enter his room. i didn't know about these photographs, but when i came into the room once in general he tried to make it so that i would spend less time in that room. i noticed that quite accidentally one time when i was cleaning the room he tried to take care of it himself. i asked him what kind of photographs are these, but he didn't say anything to me. mr. rankin. that is the photographs of the walker house that you were asking about? mrs. oswald. yes. later, after he had fired, he told me about it. i didn't know that he intended to do it--that he was planning to do it. mr. rankin. did you learn at any time that he had been practicing with the rifle? mrs. oswald. i think that he went once or twice. i didn't actually see him take the rifle, but i knew that he was practicing. mr. rankin. could you give us a little help on how you knew? mrs. oswald. he told me. and he would mention that in passing--it isn't as if he said, "well, today i am going"--it wasn't as if he said, "well, today i am going to take the rifle and go and practice." but he would say, "well, today i will take the rifle along for practice." therefore, i don't know whether he took it from the house or whether perhaps he even kept the rifle somewhere outside. there was a little square, sort of a little courtyard where he might have kept it. when you asked me about the rifle, i said that lee didn't have a rifle, but he also had a gun, a revolver. mr. rankin. do you recall when he first had the pistol, that you remember? mrs. oswald. he had that on neely street, but i think that he acquired the rifle before he acquired the pistol. the pistol i saw twice--once in his room, and the second time when i took these photographs. mr. rankin. what period of time was there between when he got the rifle and you learned of it, and the time that you first learned about the pistol? mrs. oswald. i can't say. mr. rankin. when you testified about his practicing with the rifle, are you describing a period when you were still at neely street? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. do you know where he practiced with the rifle? mrs. oswald. i don't know where. i don't know the name of the place where this took place. but i think it was somewhere out of town. it seems to me a place called lopfield. mr. rankin. would that be at the airport--love field? mrs. oswald. love field. mr. rankin. so you think he was practicing out in the open and not at a rifle range? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. do you recall seeing the rifle when the telescopic lens was on it? mrs. oswald. i hadn't paid any attention initially. i know a rifle was a rifle. i didn't know whether or not it had a telescope attached to it. but the first time i remember seeing it was in new orleans, where i recognized the telescope. but probably the telescope was on before. i simply hadn't paid attention. i hope you understand. when i saw it, i thought that all rifles have that. mr. rankin. did you make any objection to having the rifle around? mrs. oswald. of course. mr. rankin. what did he say to that? mrs. oswald. that for a man to have a rifle--since i am a woman, i don't understand him, and i shouldn't bother him. a fine life. mr. rankin. is that the same rifle that you are referring to that you took the picture of with your husband and when he had the pistol, too? mrs. oswald. yes. i asked him then why he had dressed himself up like that, with the rifle and the pistol, and i thought that he had gone crazy, and he said he wanted to send that to a newspaper. this was not my business--it was man's business. if i had known these were such dangerous toys, of course--you understand that i thought that lee had changed in that direction, and i didn't think it was a serious occupation with him, just playing around. mr. rankin. do you recall the day that you took the picture of him with the rifle and the pistol? mrs. oswald. i think that that was towards the end of february, possibly the beginning of march. i can't say exactly. because i didn't attach any significance to it at the time. that was the only time i took any pictures. i don't know how to take pictures. he gave me a camera and asked me--if someone should ask me how to photograph, i don't know. mr. rankin. was it on a day off that you took the picture? mrs. oswald. it was on a sunday. mr. rankin. how did it occur? did he come to you and ask you to take the picture? mrs. oswald. i was hanging up diapers, and he came up to me with the rifle and i was even a little scared, and he gave me the camera and asked me to press a certain button. mr. rankin. and he was dressed up with a pistol at the same time, was he? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. you have examined that picture since, and noticed that the telescopic lens was on at the time the picture was taken, have you not? mrs. oswald. now i paid attention to it. a specialist would see it immediately, of course. but at that time i did not pay any attention at all. i saw just lee. these details are of great significance for everybody, but for me at that time it didn't mean anything. at the time that i was questioned, i had even forgotten that i had taken two photographs. i thought there was only one. i thought that there were two identical pictures, but they turned out to be two different poses. mr. rankin. did you have anything to do with the prints of the photograph after the prints were made? that is, did you put them in a photographic album yourself? mrs. oswald. lee gave me one photograph and asked me to keep it for june somewhere. of course june doesn't need photographs like that. mr. rankin. do you recall how long after that the walker matter occurred? mrs. oswald. two, perhaps three weeks later. i don't know. you know better when this happened. mr. rankin. how did you first learn that your husband had shot at general walker? mrs. oswald. that evening he went out, i thought that he had gone to his classes or perhaps that he just walked out or went out on his own business. it got to be about or : , he wasn't home yet, and i began to be worried. perhaps even later. then i went into his room. somehow, i was drawn into it--you know--i was pacing around. then i saw a note there. mr. rankin. did you look for the gun at that time? mrs. oswald. no, i didn't understand anything. on the note it said, "if i am arrested" and there are certain other questions, such as, for example, the key to the mailbox is in such and such a place, and that he left me some money to last me for some time, and i couldn't understand at all what can he be arrested for. when he came back i asked him what had happened. he was very pale. i don't remember the exact time, but it was very late. and he told me not to ask him any questions. he only told me that he had shot at general walker. of course i didn't sleep all night. i thought that any minute now, the police will come. of course i wanted to ask him a great deal. but in his state i decided i had best leave him alone--it would be purposeless to question him. mr. rankin. did he say any more than that about the shooting? mrs. oswald. of course in the morning i told him that i was worried, and that we can have a lot of trouble, and i asked him, "where is the rifle? what did you do with it?" he said, that he had left it somewhere, that he had buried it, it seems to me, somewhere far from that place, because he said dogs could find it by smell. i don't know--i am not a criminologist. mr. rankin. did he tell you why he had shot at general walker? mrs. oswald. i told him that he had no right to kill people in peacetime, he had no right to take their life because not everybody has the same ideas as he has. people cannot be all alike. he said that this was a very bad man, that he was a fascist, that he was the leader of a fascist organization, and when i said that even though all of that might be true, just the same he had no right to take his life, he said if someone had killed hitler in time it would have saved many lives. i told him that this is no method to prove your ideas, by means of a rifle. mr. rankin. did you ask him how long he had been planning to do this? mrs. oswald. yes. he said he had been planning for two months. yes--perhaps he had planned to do so even earlier, but according to his conduct i could tell he was planning--he had been planning this for two months or perhaps a little even earlier. the chairman. would you like to take a little recess? mrs. oswald. no, thank you. better to get it over with. mr. rankin. did he show you a picture of the walker house then? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. that was after the shooting? mrs. oswald. yes. he had a book--he had a notebook in which he noted down quite a few details. it was all in english, i didn't read it. but i noticed the photograph. sometimes he would lock himself in his room and write in the book. i thought that he was writing some other kind of memoirs, as he had written about his life in the soviet union. mr. rankin. did you ever read that book? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. do you know of anything else he had in it besides this walker house picture? mrs. oswald. no. photographs and notes, and i think there was a map in there. mr. rankin. there was a map of the area where the walker house was? mrs. oswald. it was a map of dallas, but i don't know where walker lived. sometimes evenings he would be busy with this. perhaps he was calculating something, but i don't know. he had a bus schedule and computed something. after this had happened, people thought that he had a car, but he had been using a bus. mr. rankin. did he explain to you about his being able to use a bus just as well as other people could use a car--something of that kind? mrs. oswald. no. simply as a passenger. he told me that even before that time he had gone also to shoot, but he had returned. i don't know why. because on the day that he did fire, there was a church across the street and there were many people there, and it was easier to merge in the crowd and not be noticed. mr. rankin. did you ask him about this note that he had left, what he meant by it? mrs. oswald. yes--he said he had in mind that if in case he were arrested, i would know what to do. mr. rankin. the note doesn't say anything about walker, does it? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. did you ask him if that is what he meant by the note? mrs. oswald. yes, because as soon as he came home i showed him the note and asked him "what is the meaning of this?" mr. rankin. and that is when he gave you the explanation about the walker shooting? mrs. oswald. yes. i know that on a sunday he took the rifle, but i don't think he fired on a sunday. perhaps this was on friday. so sunday he left and took the rifle. mr. rankin. if the walker shooting was on wednesday, does that refresh your memory as to the day of the week at all? mrs. oswald. refresh my memory as to what? mr. rankin. as to the day of the shooting? mrs. oswald. it was in the middle of the week. mr. rankin. did he give any further explanation of what had happened that evening? mrs. oswald. when he fired, he did not know whether he had hit walker or not. he didn't take the bus from there. he ran several kilometers and then took the bus. and he turned on the radio and listened, but there were no reports. the next day he bought a paper and there he read it was only chance that saved walker's life. if he had not moved, he might have been killed. mr. rankin. did he comment on that at all? mrs. oswald. he said only that he had taken very good aim, that it was just chance that caused him to miss. he was very sorry that he had not hit him. i asked him to give me his word that he would not repeat anything like that. i said that this chance shows that he must live and that he should not be shot at again. i told him that i would save the note and that if something like that should be repeated again, i would go to the police and i would have the proof in the form of that note. he said he would not repeat anything like that again. by the way, several days after that, the de mohrenschildts came to us, and as soon as he opened the door he said, "lee, how is it possible that you missed?" i looked at lee. i thought that he had told de mohrenschildt about it. and lee looked at me, and he apparently thought that i had told de mohrenschildt about it. it was kind of dark. but i noticed--it was in the evening, but i noticed that his face changed, that he almost became speechless. you see, other people knew my husband better than i did. not always--but in this case. mr. rankin. was de mohrenschildt a friend that he told--your husband told him personal things that you knew of? mrs. oswald. he asked lee not because lee had told him about it, but i think because he is smart enough man to have been able to guess it. i don't know--he is simply a liberal, simply a man. i don't think that he is being accused justly of being a communist. mr. rankin. that is de mohrenschildt that you refer to? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. did you tell the authorities anything about this walker incident when you learned about it? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. you have told the secret service or the fbi people reasons why you didn't. will you tell us? mrs. oswald. why i did not tell about it? first, because it was my husband. as far as i know, according to the local laws here, a wife cannot be a witness against her husband. but, of course, if i had known that lee intended to repeat something like that, i would have told. mr. rankin. did he ask you to return the note to him? mrs. oswald. he forgot about it. but apparently after that he thought that what he had written in his book might be proof against him, and he destroyed it. mr. rankin. that is this book that you have just referred to in which he had the walker house picture? mrs. oswald. there was a notebook, yes, that is the one. mr. rankin. what did you do with the note that he had left for you after you talked about it and said you were going to keep it? mrs. oswald. i had it among my things in a cookbook. but i have two--i don't remember in which. mr. rankin. did your relations with your husband change after this walker incident? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. will you describe to us the changes as you observed them? mrs. oswald. soon after that, lee lost his job--i don't know for what reason. he was upset by it. and he looked for work for several days. and then i insisted that it would be better for him to go to new orleans where he had relatives. i insisted on that because i wanted to get him further removed from dallas and from walker, because even though he gave me his word, i wanted to have him further away, because a rifle for him was not a very good toy--a toy that was too enticing. mr. rankin. did you say that you wanted him to go to new orleans because of the walker incident? mrs. oswald. no. i simply told him that i wanted to see his home town. he had been born there. mr. rankin. when he promised you that he would not do anything like that again, did you then believe him? mrs. oswald. i did not quite believe him inasmuch as the rifle remained in the house. mr. rankin. did you ask him to get rid of the rifle at that time? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. after he shot at walker, did you notice his taking the rifle out any more to practice? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. do you recall when you went to new orleans? mrs. oswald. i think it was in may. lee went there himself, by himself. at that time, i became acquainted with mrs. paine, and i stayed with her while he was looking for work. in about one week lee telephoned me that he had found a job and that i should come down. mr. rankin. when did you first get acquainted with mrs. paine? mrs. oswald. i think it was a couple of months earlier--probably in january. mr. rankin. how did you happen to go to mrs. paine's house to stay? did she invite you? mrs. oswald. yes; she invited me. i had become acquainted with her through some russian friends of ours. we had visited with some people, and she was there. inasmuch as she was studying russian, she invited me to stay with her. mr. rankin. did you pay her anything for staying with her? mrs. oswald. no, i only repaid her in the sense that i helped her in the household and that i gave her russian language lessons. this, in her words, was the very best pay that i could give her. and she wanted that i remain with her longer. but, of course, it was better for me to be with my husband. mr. rankin. how did your husband let you know that he had found a job? mrs. oswald. he telephoned me. mr. rankin. did you then leave at once for new orleans? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. and how did you get to new orleans from dallas? mrs. oswald. mrs. paine took me there in her car. she took her children and my things and we went there. mr. rankin. did you have much in the way of household goods to move? mrs. oswald. everything--we could put everything into one car. but, in fact, most of the things lee had taken with him. because he went by bus. mr. rankin. did he take the gun with him to new orleans? mrs. oswald. i don't remember exactly, but it seems to me that it was not among my things. mr. rankin. where did you live at new orleans? mrs. oswald. magazine street. by the time i arrived there lee already had rented an apartment. mr. rankin. when mrs. paine brought you down to new orleans, did she stay with you for any period of time? mrs. oswald. yes, she was there for two days. mr. rankin. how did mrs. paine and your husband get along? were they friendly? mrs. oswald. she was very good to us, to lee and to me, and lee was quite friendly with her, but he did not like her. i know that he didn't like her. mr. rankin. did he tell you why he didn't like her? mrs. oswald. he considered her to be a stupid woman. excuse me--these are not my words. mr. rankin. were you and mrs. paine good friends? mrs. oswald. yes, so-so. i tried to help her as much as i could. but i also--i was--i did not like her too well. i also considered her not to be a very smart woman. mr. rankin. i think it is about time for a recess, mr. chairman. the chairman. very well. we will take a recess for minutes. (brief recess.) the chairman. the committee will be in order. mr. rankin, you may continue. mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, did you discuss the walker shooting with mrs. paine? mrs. oswald. no. i didn't tell anyone. apart from the fbi. that is after--that is later. mr. rankin. when was it that you told the fbi about the walker shooting? mrs. oswald. about weeks after lee was killed. mr. rankin. before you went to new orleans, had you seen anyone from the fbi? mrs. oswald. the fbi visited us in fort worth when we lived on mercedes street. mr. rankin. was that in august ? mrs. oswald. probably. mr. rankin. do you know the names of the fbi agents that visited you then? mrs. oswald. no, i don't remember that lee had just returned from work and we were getting ready to have dinner when a car drove up and man introduced himself and asked lee to step out and talk to him. there was another man in the car. they talked for about hours and i was very angry, because everything had gotten cold. this meant more work for me. i asked who these were, and he was very upset over the fact that the fbi was interested in him. mr. rankin. did that interview take place in the car? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. did your husband tell you what they said to him and what he said to them? mrs. oswald. i don't know to what extent this was true, but lee said that the fbi had told him that in the event some russians might visit him and would try to recruit him to work for them, he should notify the fbi agents. i don't know to what extent this was true. but perhaps lee just said that. mr. rankin. did our husband say anything about the fbi asking him to work for them? mrs. oswald. no, he didn't tell me. mr. rankin. did he say anything more about what they said to him in this interview? mrs. oswald. no, he didn't tell me verbatim, but he said that they saw communists in everybody and they are very much afraid and inasmuch as i had returned from russia. mr. rankin. did he tell you that they had asked him whether he had acted as an agent or was asked to be an agent for the russians? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. do you recall any other---- mrs. oswald. excuse me. they did ask him about whether the russians had proposed that he be an agent for them. mr. rankin. did he tell you what he said to them in that regard? mrs. oswald. he told me that he had answered no. mr. rankin. after this interview by the fbi agents, do you recall any later interview with them and yourself or your husband before you went to new orleans? mrs. oswald. no, there were no other interviews. the next time was in irving, when i lived with mrs. paine. but that is after i returned from new orleans. mr. rankin. at new orleans, who did your husband work for? mrs. oswald. he worked for the louisiana coffee co. but i don't know in what capacity. i don't think that this was very good job, or perhaps more correctly, he did not--i know that he didn't like this job. mr. rankin. do you know what he received in pay from that job? mrs. oswald. $ . an hour, i think. i am not sure. mr. rankin. how long did he work for this coffee company? mrs. oswald. i think it was from may until august, to the end of august. mr. rankin. was he discharged? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. and then was he unemployed for a time? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. after you had discussed with your husband your going to russia, was anything done about that? mrs. oswald. yes, i wrote a letter to the soviet embassy with a request to be permitted to return. and then it seems to me after i was already in new orleans, i wrote another letter in which i told the embassy that my husband wants to return with me. mr. rankin. do you recall the date of the first letter that you just referred to? mrs. oswald. no. but that is easily determined. mr. rankin. were you asking for a visa to return to russia? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. did you discuss with your husband his returning with you before you wrote the second letter that you have described? mrs. oswald. i didn't ask him. he asked me to do so one day when he was extremely upset. he appeared to be very unhappy and he said that nothing keeps him here, and that he would not lose anything if he returned to the soviet union, and that he wants to be with me. and that it would be better to have less but not to be concerned about tomorrow, not to be worried about tomorrow. mr. rankin. was this a change in his attitude? mrs. oswald. towards me or towards russia? mr. rankin. towards going to russia. mrs. oswald. i don't think that he was too fond of russia, but simply that he knew that he would have work assured him there, because he had--after all, he had to think about his family. mr. rankin. did you know that he did get a passport? mrs. oswald. it seems to me he always had a passport. mr. rankin. while he was in new orleans, that he got a passport? mrs. oswald. well, it seems to me that after we came here, he immediately received a passport. i don't know. i always saw his green passport. he even had two--one that had expired, and a new one. mr. rankin. do you know when the new one was issued? mrs. oswald. no. it seems to me in the embassy when we arrived. i don't know. but please understand me correctly, i am not hiding this. i simply don't know. mr. rankin. do you know about a letter from your husband to the embassy asking that his request for a visa be considered separately from yours? mrs. oswald. no, i don't. mr. rankin. when you were at new orleans, did your husband go to school, that you knew of? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. did he spend his earnings with you and your child? mrs. oswald. most of the time, yes. but i know that he became active with some kind of activity in a pro-cuban committee. i hope that is what you are looking for. mr. rankin. when did you first notice the rifle at new orleans? mrs. oswald. as soon as i arrived in new orleans. mr. rankin. where was it kept there? mrs. oswald. he again had a closet-like room with his things in it. he had his clothes hanging there, all his other belongings. mr. rankin. was the rifle in a cover there? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. did you notice him take it away from your home there in new orleans at any time? mrs. oswald. no. i know for sure that he didn't. but i know that we had a kind of a porch with a--screened-in porch, and i know that sometimes evenings after dark he would sit there with his rifle. i don't know what he did with it. i came there by chance once and saw him just sitting there with his rifle. i thought he is merely sitting there and resting. of course i didn't like these kind of little jokes. mr. rankin. can you give us an idea of how often this happened that you recall? mrs. oswald. it began to happen quite frequently after he was arrested there in connection with some demonstration and handing out of leaflets. mr. rankin. was that the fair play for cuba demonstration? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. from what you observed about his having the rifle on the back porch, in the dark, could you tell whether or not he was trying to practice with the telescopic lens? mrs. oswald. yes. i asked him why. but this time he was preparing to go to cuba. mr. rankin. that was his explanation for practicing with the rifle? mrs. oswald. yes. he said that he would go to cuba. i told him i was not going with him--that i would stay here. mr. rankin. on these occasions when he was practicing with the rifle, would they be three or four times a week in the evening, after the fair play for cuba incident? mrs. oswald. almost every evening. he very much wanted to go to cuba and have the newspapers write that somebody had kidnapped an aircraft. and i asked him "for god sakes, don't do such a thing." mr. rankin. did he describe that idea to you? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. and when he told you of it, did he indicate that he wanted to be the one that would kidnap the airplane himself? mrs. oswald. yes, he wanted to do that. and he asked me that i should help him with that. but i told him i would not touch that rifle. this sounds very merry, but i am very much ashamed of it. mr. rankin. did you tell him that using the rifle in this way, talking about it, was not in accordance with his agreement with you? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. what did he say about that? mrs. oswald. he said that everything would go well. he was very self-reliant--if i didn't want to. mr. rankin. was there any talk of divorce during this period? mrs. oswald. no. during this time, we got along pretty well not counting the incidents with cuba. i say relatively well, because we did not really have--generally he helped me quite a bit and was good to me. but, of course, i did not agree with his views. mr. rankin. at this time in new orleans did he discuss with you his views? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. what did he say about that? mrs. oswald. mostly--most of the conversations were on the subject of cuba. mr. rankin. was there anything said about the united states--not liking the united states. mrs. oswald. no. i can't say--he liked some things in russia, he liked some other things here, didn't like some things there, and didn't like some things here. and i am convinced that as much as he knew about cuba, all he knew was from books and so on. he wanted to convince himself. but i am sure that if he had gone there, he would not have liked it there, either. only on the moon, perhaps. mr. rankin. did he tell you what he didn't like about the united states? mrs. oswald. first of all, he didn't like the fact that there are fascist organizations here. that was one thing. the second thing, that it was hard to get an education and hard to find work. and that medical expenses were very high. mr. rankin. did he say who he blamed for this? mrs. oswald. he didn't blame anyone. mr. rankin. did he ever say anything about president kennedy? mrs. oswald. no. at least--i was always interested in president kennedy and had asked him many times to translate articles in a newspaper or magazine for me, and he always had something good to say. he translated it, but never did comment on it. at least in lee's behavior--from lee's behavior i cannot conclude that he was against the president, and therefore the thing is incomprehensible to me. perhaps he hid it from me. i don't know. he said that after years he would be prime minister. i think that he had a sick imagination--at least at that time i already considered him to be not quite normal--not always, but at times. i always tried to point out to him that he was a man like any others who were around us. but he simply could not understand that. i tried to tell him that it would be better to direct his energies to some more practical matters, and not something like that. mr. rankin. can you tell us what you observed about him that caused you to think he was different? mrs. oswald. at least his imagination, his fantasy, which was quite unfounded, as to the fact that he was an outstanding man. and then the fact that he was very much interested, exceedingly so, in autobiographical works of outstanding statesmen of the united states and others. mr. rankin. was there anything else of that kind that caused you to think that he was different? mrs. oswald. i think that he compared himself to these people whose autobiographies he read. that seems strange to me, because it is necessary to have an education in order to achieve success of that kind. after he became busy with his pro-cuban activity, he received a letter from somebody in new york, some communist--probably from new york--i am not sure from where--from some communist leader and he was very happy, he felt that this was a great man that he had received the letter from. you see, when i would make fun of him, of his activity to some extent, in the sense that it didn't help anyone really, he said that i didn't understand him, and here, you see, was proof that someone else did, that there were people who understood his activity. i would say that to lee--that lee could not really do much for cuba, that cuba would get along well without him, if they had to. mr. rankin. you would tell that to him? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. and what would he say in return? mrs. oswald. he shrugged his shoulders and kept his own opinion. he was even interested in the airplane schedules, with the idea of kidnapping a plane. but i talked him out of it. mr. rankin. the airplane schedules from new orleans? mrs. oswald. new orleans--but--from new orleans--leaving new orleans in an opposite direction. and he was going to make it turn around and go to cuba. mr. rankin. he discussed this with you? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. when did his fair play for cuba activity occur--before or after he lost his job? mrs. oswald. after he lost his job. i told him it would be much better if he were working, because when he didn't work he was busy with such foolishness. mr. rankin. what did he say about that? mrs. oswald. nothing. and it is at that time that i wrote a letter to mrs. paine telling her that lee was out of work, and they invited me to come and stay with her. and when i left her, i knew that lee would go to mexico city. but, of course, i didn't tell mrs. paine about it. mr. rankin. had he discussed with you the idea of going to mexico city? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. when did he first discuss that? mrs. oswald. i think it was in august. mr. rankin. did he tell you why he wanted to go to mexico city? mrs. oswald. from mexico city he wanted to go to cuba--perhaps through the russian embassy in mexico somehow he would be able to get to cuba. mr. rankin. did he say anything about going to russia by way of cuba? mrs. oswald. i know that he said that in the embassy. but he only said so. i know that he had no intention of going to russia then. mr. rankin. how do you know that? mrs. oswald. he told me. i know lee fairly well--well enough from that point of view. mr. rankin. did he tell you that he was going to cuba and send you on to russia? mrs. oswald. no, he proposed that after he got to cuba, that i would go there, too, somehow. but he also said that after he was in cuba, and if he might go to russia, he would let me know in any case. mr. rankin. did he discuss castro and the cuban government with you? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. when did he start to do that? mrs. oswald. at the time that he was busy with that pro-cuban activity. he was sympathetic to castro while in russia, and i have also a good opinion of castro to the extent that i know. i don't know anything bad about him. mr. rankin. what did he say about castro to you? mrs. oswald. he said that he is a very smart statesman, very useful for his government, and very active. mr. rankin. what did you say to him? mrs. oswald. i said, "maybe." it doesn't make any difference to me. mr. rankin. did you know he was writing to the fair play for cuba organization in new york during this latter period in new orleans? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. did he show you that correspondence? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. how did you learn that? mrs. oswald. he told me about it. or, more correctly, i saw that he was writing to them. mr. rankin. did you write the russian embassy in regard to your visa from new orleans. mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. do you recall what address you gave in new orleans when you wrote? mrs. oswald. no, i don't remember. sometimes i would write a letter, but lee would insert the address and would mail the letters. that is why i don't remember. mr. rankin. did you get your mail in new orleans at your apartment or at a post office box? mrs. oswald. no, we had a post office box, and that is where we received our mail. mr. rankin. did your husband have any organization in his fair play for cuba at new orleans? mrs. oswald. no, he had no organization. he was alone. he was quite alone. mr. rankin. when did you learn about his arrest there? mrs. oswald. the next day, when he was away from home overnight and returned, he told me he had been arrested. mr. rankin. what did he say about it? mrs. oswald. he was smiling, but in my opinion he was upset. i think that after that occurrence--he became less active, he cooled off a little. mr. rankin. less active in the fair play for cuba? mrs. oswald. yes. he continued it, but more for a person's sake. i think that his heart was no longer in it. mr. rankin. did he tell you that the fbi had seen him at the jail in new orleans? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. did he complain about his arrest and say it was unfair, anything of that kind. mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. did you know he paid a fine? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. did you have anything to do with trying to get him out of jail? mrs. oswald. no. he was only there for hours. he paid his fine and left. he said that the policeman who talked to him was very kind, and was a very good person. mr. rankin. while you were in new orleans, did you get to know the murrets? mrs. oswald. yes. they are his relatives. i think that lee engaged in this activity primarily for purposes of self-advertising. he wanted to be arrested. i think he wanted to get into the newspapers, so that he would be known. mr. rankin. do you think he wanted to be advertised and known as being in support of cuba before he went to cuba? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. do you think he thought that would help him when he got to cuba? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. did he tell you anything about that, or is that just what you guess? mrs. oswald. he would collect the newspaper clippings about his--when the newspapers wrote about him, and he took these clippings with him when he went to mexico. mr. rankin. did the murrets come to visit you from time to time in new orleans? mrs. oswald. yes--sometimes they came to us, and sometimes we went to them. mr. rankin. was that a friendly relationship? mrs. oswald. i would say that they were more of a family relationship type. they were very good to us. his uncle, that is the husband of his aunt, was a very good man. he tried to reason with lee after that incident. lee liked them very much as relatives but he didn't like the fact that they were all very religious. when his uncle, or, again, the husband of his aunt would tell him that he must approach things with a more serious attitude, and to worry about himself and his family, lee would say, "well, these are just bourgeois, who are only concerned with their own individual welfare." mr. krimer. the word mrs. oswald used is not quite bourgeois, but it is a person of a very narrow viewpoint who is only concerned with his own personal interests, inclined to be an egotist. mr. rankin. did you hear the discussion when the uncle talked about this fair play for cuba and his activities? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. what did the uncle say to your husband about that? mrs. oswald. at that time. i did not know english too well, and lee would not interpret for me. he only nodded his head. but i knew that he did not agree with his uncle. his uncle said that he condemned that kind of activity. mr. rankin. what was your husband's attitude about your learning english? mrs. oswald. he never talked english to me at home, and did not give me any instruction. this was strictly my own business. but he did want me to learn english. but that was my own concern. i had to do that myself somehow. that is the truth. mr. rankin. did any of your russian friends visit you at new orleans? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. outside of the murrets, were there some people from new orleans that visited you at your home in new orleans? mrs. oswald. once or twice a woman visited who was a friend of ruth paine's. ruth paine has written her. she had written to ruth paine to find out whether she knew any russians there. and once or twice this woman visited us. but other than that, no one. mr. rankin. what was the name of this woman? mrs. oswald. i don't remember. i only remember that her first name is also ruth. mr. rankin. did your husband have friends of his that visited you there at new orleans? mrs. oswald. no, never. once some time after lee was arrested, on a saturday or a sunday morning, a man came early and questioned lee about the activity of the allegedly existing organization, which really did not exist. because in the newspaper accounts lee was described as a member and even the leader of that organization, which in reality did not exist at all. mr. rankin. do you know who that was? mrs. oswald. no, i don't. i asked lee who that was, and he said that is probably some anti-cuban, or perhaps an fbi agent. he represented himself as a man who was sympathetic to cuba but lee did not believe him. mr. rankin. did your husband ever tell you what he told the fbi agent when they came to the jail to see him? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. after you wrote mrs. paine, did she come at once in response to your letter to take you back to dallas? mrs. oswald. not quite at once. she came about a month later. she apparently was on vacation at that time, and said that she would come after her vacation. mr. rankin. didn't she indicate that she was going to come around september , and then came a little before that? mrs. oswald. no. in her letter to me she indicated that she would come either the th or the st of september, and she did come at that time. mr. rankin. did you move your household goods in her station wagon at that time? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. do you know whether or not the rifle was carried in the station wagon? mrs. oswald. yes, it was. mr. rankin. did you have anything to do with loading it in there? mrs. oswald. no. lee was loading everything on because i was pregnant at the time. but i know that lee loaded the rifle on. mr. rankin. was the rifle carried in some kind of a case when you went back with mrs. paine? mrs. oswald. after we arrived. i tried to put the bed, the child's crib together, the metallic parts, and i looked for a certain part, and i came upon something wrapped in a blanket. i thought that was part of the bed, but it turned out to be the rifle. mr. rankin. do you remember whether the pistol was carried back in mrs. paine's car too? mrs. oswald. i don't know where the pistol was. mr. rankin. before you went back to mrs. paine's house, did you discuss whether you would be paying her anything for board and room? mrs. oswald. she proposed that i again live with her on the same conditions as before. because this was more advantageous for her than to pay a school. she received better instruction that way. in any case, she didn't spend any extra money for me--she didn't spend any more than she usually spent. mr. rankin. did you give her lessons in russian? mrs. oswald. no, these were not quite lessons. it was more in the nature of conversational practice. and then i also helped her to prepare russian lessons for the purpose of teaching russian. mr. rankin. when you found the rifle wrapped in the blanket, upon your return to mrs. paine's, where was it located? mrs. oswald. in the garage, where all the rest of the things were. mr. rankin. in what part of the garage? mrs. oswald. in that part which is closer to the street, because that garage is connected to the house. one door opens on the kitchen, and the other out in the street. mr. rankin. was the rifle lying down or was it standing up on the butt end? mrs. oswald. no, it was lying down on the floor. mr. rankin. when your husband talked about going to mexico city, did he say where he was going to go there, who he would visit? mrs. oswald. yes. he said that he would go to the soviet embassy and to the cuban embassy and would do everything he could in order to get to cuba. mr. rankin. did he tell you where he would stay in mexico city? mrs. oswald. in a hotel. mr. rankin. did he tell you the name? mrs. oswald. no, he didn't know where he would stop. mr. rankin. was there any discussion about the expense of making the trip? mrs. oswald. yes. but we always lived very modestly, and lee always had some savings. therefore, he had the money for it. mr. rankin. did he say how much it would cost? mrs. oswald. he had a little over $ and he said that that would be sufficient. mr. rankin. did he talk about getting you a silver bracelet or any presents before he went? mrs. oswald. it is perhaps more truth to say that he asked me what i would like, and i told him that i would like mexican silver bracelets. but what he did buy me i didn't like at all. when he returned to irving, from mexico city, and i saw the bracelet, i was fairly sure that he had bought it in new orleans and not in mexico city, because i had seen bracelets like that for sale there. that is why i am not sure that the bracelet was purchased in mexico. lee had an identical bracelet which he had bought in either dallas or new orleans. it was a man's bracelet. mr. rankin. the silver bracelet he gave you when he got back had your name on it, did it not? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. was it too small? mrs. oswald. yes, i was offended because it was too small, and he promised to exchange it. but, of course, i didn't want to hurt him, and i said, thank you, the important thing is the thought, the attention. mr. rankin. did he discuss other things that he planned to do in mexico city, such as see the bullfights or jai alai games or anything of that kind? mrs. oswald. no, i was already questioned about this game by the fbi, but i never heard of it. but i had asked lee to buy some mexican records, but he did not do that. mr. rankin. do you know how he got to mexico city? mrs. oswald. by bus. mr. rankin. and did he return by bus, also? mrs. oswald. it seems, yes. yes, he told me that a round-trip ticket was cheaper than two one-way tickets. mr. rankin. did you learn that he had a tourist card to go to mexico? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. if he had such a card, you didn't know it then? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. after he had been to mexico city, did he come back to irving or to dallas? mrs. oswald. when lee returned i was already in irving and he telephoned me. but he told me that he had arrived the night before and had spent the night in dallas, and called me in the morning. mr. rankin. did he say where he had been in dallas? mrs. oswald. it seems to me at the ymca. mr. rankin. did he come right out to see you then? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. did he tell you anything about his trip to mexico city? mrs. oswald. yes, he told me that he had visited the two embassies, that he had received nothing, that the people who are there are too much--too bureaucratic. he said that he has spent the time pretty well. and i had told him that if he doesn't accomplish anything to at least take a good rest. i was hoping that the climate, if nothing else, would be beneficial to him. mr. rankin. did you ask him what he did the rest of the time? mrs. oswald. yes, i think he said that he visited a bull fight, that he spent most of his time in museums, and that he did some sightseeing in the city. mr. rankin. did he tell you about anyone that he met there? mrs. oswald. no. he said that he did not like the mexican girls. mr. rankin. did he tell you anything about what happened at the cuban embassy, or consulate? mrs. oswald. no. only that he had talked to certain people there. mr. rankin. did he tell you what people he talked to? mrs. oswald. he said that he first visited the soviet embassy in the hope that having been there first this would make it easier for him at the cuban embassy. but there they refused to have anything to do with him. mr. rankin. and what did he say about the visit to the cuban embassy or consulate? mrs. oswald. it was quite without results. mr. rankin. did he complain about the consular or any of the officials of the cuban embassy and the way they handled the matter? mrs. oswald. yes, he called them bureaucrats. he said that the cubans seemed to have a system similar to the russians--too much red tape before you get through there. mr. rankin. is there anything else that he told you about the mexico city trip that you haven't related? mrs. oswald. no, that is all that i can remember about it. mr. rankin. do you recall how long he was gone on his trip to mexico city? mrs. oswald. all of this took approximately weeks, from the time that i left new orleans, until the time that he returned. mr. rankin. and from the time he left the united states to go to mexico city to his return, was that about days? mrs. oswald. yes. he said he was there for about a week. mr. rankin. when you were asked before about the trip to mexico, you did not say that you knew anything about it. do you want to explain to the commission how that happened? mrs. oswald. most of these questions were put to me by the fbi. i do not like them too much. i didn't want to be too sincere with them. though i was quite sincere and answered most of their questions. they questioned me a great deal, and i was very tired of them, and i thought that, well, whether i knew about it or didn't know about it didn't change matters at all, it didn't help anything, because the fact that lee had been there was already known, and whether or not i knew about it didn't make any difference. mr. rankin. was that the only reason that you did not tell about what you knew of the mexico city trip before? mrs. oswald. yes, because the first time that they asked me i said no, i didn't know anything about it. and in all succeeding discussions i couldn't very well have said i did. there is nothing special in that. it wasn't because this was connected with some sort of secret. mr. rankin. did your husband stay with you at the paines after that first night when he returned from mexico? mrs. oswald. yes, he stayed overnight there. and in the morning we took him to dallas. mr. rankin. and by "we" who do you mean? mrs. oswald. ruth paine, i and her children. mr. rankin. do you know what he did in dallas, then? mrs. oswald. he intended to rent an apartment in the area of oak cliff, and to look for work. mr. rankin. do you know whether he did that? mrs. oswald. yes, i know that he always tried to get some work. he was not lazy. mr. rankin. did he rent the apartment? mrs. oswald. on the same day he rented a room, not an apartment, and he telephoned me and told me about it. mr. rankin. did you discuss the plans for this room before you took him to dallas? mrs. oswald. no. i asked him where he would live, and he said it would be best if he rented a room, it would not be as expensive as an apartment. mr. rankin. did he say anything about whether you would be living with him, or he would be living there alone? mrs. oswald. no, i did not really want to be with lee at that time, because i was expecting, and it would have been better to be with a woman who spoke english and russian. mr. rankin. do you know where your husband looked for work in dallas at that time? mrs. oswald. no. he tried to get any kind of work. he answered ads, newspaper ads. mr. rankin. did he have trouble finding work again? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. how long after his return was it before he found a job? mrs. oswald. two to three weeks. mr. rankin. when he was unemployed in new orleans, did he get unemployment compensation? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. do you know how much he was getting then? mrs. oswald. $ a week. it is possible to live on that money. one can fail to find work and live. perhaps you don't believe me. it is not bad to rest and receive money. mr. rankin. when he was unemployed in dallas, do you know whether he received unemployment compensation? mrs. oswald. we were due to receive unemployment compensation, but it was getting close to the end of his entitlement period, and we received one more check. mr. rankin. did you discuss with him possible places of employment after his return from mexico? mrs. oswald. no. that was his business. i couldn't help him in that. but to some extent i did help him find a job, because i was visiting mrs. paine's neighbors. there was a woman there who told me where he might find some work. mr. rankin. and when was this? mrs. oswald. i don't remember. if that is important, i can try and ascertain date. but i think you probably know. mr. rankin. was it shortly before he obtained work? mrs. oswald. as soon as we got the information, the next day he went there and he did get the job. mr. rankin. and who was it that you got the information from? mrs. oswald. it was the neighbor whose brother was employed by the school book depository. he said it seemed to him there was a vacancy there. mr. rankin. what was his name? mrs. oswald. i don't know. the chairman. well, i think we have arrived at our adjournment time. we will recess now until tomorrow morning at o'clock. (whereupon, at : p.m., the president's commission recessed.) _tuesday, february , _ testimony of mrs. lee harvey oswald resumed the president's commission met at a.m. on february , , at maryland avenue ne., washington, d.c. present were chief justice earl warren, chairman; senator john sherman cooper, representative hale boggs, representative gerald r. ford, john j. mccloy, and allen w. dulles, members. also present were j. lee rankin, general counsel; norman redlich, assistant counsel; leon i. gopadze and william d. krimer, interpreters; and john m. thorne, attorney for mrs. lee harvey oswald. the chairman. the commission will be in order. mr. rankin, will you proceed with the questioning of mrs. oswald. mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, there are a number of things about some of the material we have been over, the period we have been over, that i would like to ask you about, sort of to fill in different parts of it. i hope you will bear with us in regard to that. were you aware of the diary that your husband had written and the book that he had typed? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. did he hire a public stenographer to help him with his book? mrs. oswald. no, he wrote his in longhand. he started it in russia. but he had it retyped here because it had been in longhand. mr. rankin. and do you know about when he started to have it retyped here? mrs. oswald. we arrived in june. i think it was at the end of june. mr. rankin. do you know what happened to that book, or a copy of it? mrs. oswald. at the present time it is--i don't know where--the police department or the fbi. mr. rankin. and what was done with the diary? do you know that? mrs. oswald. i don't know where it is now. i know that it was taken. but where it is now, i don't know. mr. rankin. it was taken by either the fbi or the secret service or the police department? mrs. oswald. i don't know that, because i was not at home when all these things were taken. mr. rankin. would you tell us about what you know about their being taken. were you away from home and someone else was there when various things belonging to you and your husband were taken from the house? mrs. oswald. i don't know where this book was, whether it was at mrs. paine's or in lee's apartment, because i did not see it there. i was not at mrs. paine's because i lived in a hotel at that time in dallas. mr. rankin. what hotel was that? mrs. oswald. i don't know. mr. rankin. was this diary kept by your husband daily, so far as you know? mrs. oswald. in russia? mr. rankin. well, russia first. mrs. oswald. it seems to me that he did not continue it here, that he had completed it in russia. not everything, but most of the time. mr. rankin. and was it in his own handwriting? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. you have told us about an interview with the fbi, when your husband went out into the car and spent a couple of hours, in august of . do you recall whether there was an fbi interview earlier than that? mrs. oswald. no, there wasn't. at least i don't know about it. perhaps there was such a meeting, perhaps at the time we were in fort worth somebody had come, when we lived with robert. one reporter wanted to interview lee but lee would not give the interview, and perhaps the fbi came, too. mr. rankin. the particular interview that i am asking you about was june , according to information from the fbi. mrs. oswald. i don't know about it. the first time i knew about the fbi coming was when we lived in fort worth. mr. rankin. what rental did you pay on mercedes street? mrs. oswald. i don't remember. mr. rankin. did you have any difficulties while you were on mercedes street with your husband--that is, any quarreling there? mrs. oswald. only in connection with his mother, because of his mother. mr. rankin. were you having any problems about finances there, on mercedes street? mrs. oswald. of course we did not live in luxury. we did not buy anything that was not absolutely needed, because lee had to pay his debt to robert and to the government. but it was not particularly difficult. at least on that basis we had not had any quarrels. mr. rankin. could you tell us about de mohrenschildt? was he a close friend of your husband? mrs. oswald. lee did not have any close friends, but at least he had--here in america--he had a great deal of respect for de mohrenschildt. mr. rankin. could you describe that relationship. did they see each other often? mrs. oswald. no, not very frequently. from time to time. mr. rankin. did your husband tell you why he had so much respect for de mohrenschildt? mrs. oswald. because he considered him to be smart, to be full of joy of living, a very energetic and very sympathetic person. mr. rankin. we had a report that---- mrs. oswald. excuse me. it was pleasant to meet with him. he would bring some pleasure and better atmosphere when he came to visit--with his dogs--he is very loud. mr. rankin. did you like him? mrs. oswald. yes. him and his wife. mr. rankin. did you understand any of the conversations between your husband and de mohrenschildt? mrs. oswald. yes, they were held in russian. mr. rankin. did they discuss politics or the marxist philosophy or anything of that kind? mrs. oswald. being men, of course, sometimes they talked about politics, but they did not discuss marxist philosophy. they spoke about current political events. mr. rankin. did they have any discussions about president kennedy or the government in the united states at that time? mrs. oswald. no, only george said that before she got married he knew jackie kennedy, that she was a very good, very sympathetic woman. then he was writing a book, that is george, and with reference to that book he had written a letter to president kennedy. this was with reference to the fact that john kennedy had recommended physical exercise, walking and so on, and de mohrenschildt and his wife had walked to the mexican border. and he hoped that john kennedy would recommend his book. i don't know--perhaps this is foolishness. mr. rankin. did he say anything, or either of them say anything about president kennedy at that time? mrs. oswald. nothing bad. mr. rankin. when you referred to george, did you mean mr. de mohrenschildt? mrs. oswald. yes. i generally didn't believe him, that he had written a book. sometimes he could say so, but just for amusement. mr. rankin. did de mohrenschildt have a daughter? mrs. oswald. he had several daughters, and many wives. mr. rankin. was one of his daughters named taylor, her last name? mrs. oswald. yes. that is a daughter of his first marriage. at the present time, i think he has--that is his fourth wife. mr. rankin. and what was her---- mrs. oswald. it seems that that is the last one. mr. rankin. what was her husband's name--the taylor daughter? mrs. oswald. gary taylor. mr. rankin. did you have anything to do with the gary taylors? mrs. oswald. yes, at one time when i had to visit the dentist in dallas, and i lived in fort worth, i came to dallas and i stayed with them for a couple of days. mr. rankin. do you know about when that was? mrs. oswald. october or november, . mr. rankin. did gary taylor help you to move your things at one time, move you and your daughter? mrs. oswald. yes, he moved our things from fort worth to dallas, to elsbeth street. mr. rankin. did he help you to move to mrs. hall's at any time, anyone else? mrs. oswald. no, he did not move me to mrs. hall. but sometimes he came for a visit. once or twice i think he came when we lived--to mrs. hall's, and once when we lived on mercedes street. mr. rankin. what did he do when he came? were those just visits? mrs. oswald. yes, just visits. just visits, with his wife and child. mr. rankin. when the de mohrenschildts came to the house and you showed them the rifle, did you say anything about it? mrs. oswald. perhaps i did say something to him, but i don't remember. mr. rankin. did you say anything like "look what my crazy one has done? bought a rifle" or something of that kind? mrs. oswald. this sounds like something i might say. perhaps i did. mr. rankin. in the period of october , you did spend some time with mrs. hall, did you not, in her home? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. will you tell us about how that happened? mrs. oswald. when lee found work in dallas, elena hall proposed that i stay with her for some time, because she was alone, and i would be company. mr. rankin. did that have anything to do with any quarrels with your husband? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. during that period of october of , when your husband went to dallas to get work, do you know where he lived? mrs. oswald. i know that for--at first, for some time he stayed at the ymca, but later he rented an apartment, but i don't know at what address. because in the letters which he wrote me, the return address was a post office box. mr. rankin. do you know whether he stayed during that period part of the time with gary taylor? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. where did you live while your husband was looking for work and staying at the ymca and at this apartment that you referred to? mrs. oswald. when he stayed at the ymca he had already found work, and i was in fort worth. mr. rankin. and where in fort worth were you staying then? mrs. oswald. with mrs. hall. mr. rankin. did you notice a change, psychologically, in your husband during this period in the united states? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. when did you first notice that change? mrs. oswald. at--at elsbeth street, in dallas. after the visit of the fbi, in fort worth. he was for some time nervous and irritable. mr. rankin. did he seem to have two different personalities then? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. would you describe to the commission what he did to cause you to think that he was changing? mrs. oswald. generally he was--usually he was quite as he always was. he used to help me. and he was a good family man. sometimes, apparently without reason, at least i did not know reasons, if any existed, he became quite a stranger. at such times it was impossible to ask him anything. he simply kept to himself. he was irritated by trifles. mr. rankin. do you recall any of the trifles that irritated him, so as to help us to know the picture? mrs. oswald. it is hard to remember any such trifling occurrences, sometimes such a small thing as, for example, dinner being five minutes late, and i do mean five minutes--it is not that i am exaggerating--he would be very angry. or if there were no butter on the table, because he hadn't brought it from the icebox, he would with great indignation ask, "why is there no butter?" and at the same time if i had put the butter on the table he wouldn't have touched it. this is foolishness, of course. a normal person doesn't get irritated by things like that. mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, i do not ask these questions to pry into your personal affairs, but it gives us some insight into what he did and why he might have done the things he did. i hope you understand that. mrs. oswald. i understand. mr. rankin. could you tell us a little about when he did beat you because we have reports that at times neighbors saw signs of his having beat you, so that we might know the occasions and why he did such things. mrs. oswald. the neighbors simply saw that because i have a very sensitive skin, and even a very light blow would show marks. sometimes it was my own fault. sometimes it was really necessary to just leave him alone. but i wanted more attention. he was jealous. he had no reason to be. but he was jealous of even some of my old friends, old in the sense of age. mr. rankin. when he became jealous, did he discuss that with you? mrs. oswald. yes, of course. mr. rankin. what did he say? mrs. oswald. i don't remember. basically, that i prefer others to him. that i want many things which he cannot give me. but that was not so. once we had a quarrel because i had a young man who was a boyfriend--this was before we were married, a boy who was in love with me, and i liked him, too. and i had written him a letter from here. i had--i wrote him that i was very lonely here, that lee had changed a great deal, and that i was sorry that i had not married him instead, that it would have been much easier for me. i had mailed that letter showing the post office box as a return address. but this was just the time when the postage rates went up by one cent, and the letter was returned. lee brought that letter and asked me what it was and forced me to read it. but i refused. then he sat down across from me and started to read it to me. i was very much ashamed of my foolishness. and, of course, he hit me, but he did not believe that this letter was sincere. he asked me if it was true or not, and i told him that it was true. but he thought that i did it only in order to tease him. and that was the end of it. it was a very ill-considered thing. mr. rankin. do you recall anything more that he said at that time about that matter? mrs. oswald. of course after he hit me, he said that i should be ashamed of myself for saying such things because he was very much in love with me. but this was after he hit me. generally, i think that was right, for such things, that is the right thing to do. there was some grounds for it. please excuse me. perhaps i talk too much. mr. rankin. when you had your child baptized, did you discuss that with your husband? mrs. oswald. i knew that lee was not religious, and, therefore, i did not tell him about it. i lived in fort worth at that time, while he lived in dallas. but when june was baptized, i told him about it, and he didn't say anything about it. he said it was my business. and he said, "okay, if you wish." he had nothing against it. he only took offense at the fact that i hadn't told him about it ahead of time. mr. rankin. are you a member of any church? mrs. oswald. i believe in god, of course, but i do not go to church--first because i do not have a car. and, secondly, because there is only one russian church. simply that i believe in god in my own heart, and i don't think it is necessary to visit the church. mr. rankin. while your husband--or while you were visiting the halls, did your husband tell you about getting his job in dallas? mrs. oswald. yes. i knew about it before he left for dallas, that he already had work there. mr. rankin. do you recall whether your husband rented the apartment in dallas about november , ? mrs. oswald. for him? mr. rankin. yes. mrs. oswald. he had told me that he rented a room, not an apartment. but that was in october. what date i don't know. mr. rankin. and had he obtained an apartment before you went to dallas to live with him? mrs. oswald. yes. cleaned everything up. mr. rankin. so that you would have gone to dallas to live with him some time on or about the date that he rented that apartment? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. after you went to live with him in the apartment at dallas, did you separate from him again and go to live with somebody else? mrs. oswald. only after this quarrel. then i stayed with my friends for one week. i had already told you about that. mr. rankin. that is the meller matter? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. do you recall that you called mrs. meller and told her about your husband beating you and she told you to get a cab and come to stay with her? mrs. oswald. yes, but he didn't beat me. mr. rankin. and you didn't tell her that he had beat you, either? mrs. oswald. i don't think so. perhaps she understood it that he had beaten me, because it had happened. mr. rankin. can you give us any more exact account of where your husband stayed in the period between october and november , ? mrs. oswald. i don't remember his exact address. this was a period when i did not live with him. i am asking about which period is it. i don't remember the dates. mr. rankin. the period that he rented the apartment was november , so that shortly after that, as i understood your testimony, you were with him, from november , or about november on to the th. is that right? mrs. oswald. from november to november , ? on elsbeth street? no, i was there longer. mr. rankin. and do you recall the date that you went to mrs. hall's, then? mrs. oswald. no, i don't remember. the day when he rented the apartment was a sunday. but where he lived before that, i don't know. mr. rankin. after you went to live with him in the apartment, around november , how long did you stay before you went to live with your friend? mrs. oswald. approximately a month and a half. perhaps a month. i am not sure. mr. rankin. and when you were at fort worth, and he was living in dallas, did he call you from time to time on the telephone? mrs. oswald. yes, he called me and he wrote letters and sometimes he came for a visit. mr. rankin. and during that time, did he tell you where he was staying? mrs. oswald. yes, he said that he had rented a room, but he did not tell me his address. i want to help you, but i don't know. mr. rankin. did you think there was something in your husband's life in america, his friends and so forth, that caused him to be different here? mrs. oswald. no, he had no friends who had any influence over him. he himself had changed by comparison to the way he was in russia. but what the reason for that was, i don't know. am i giving sufficient answers to your questions? mr. rankin. you are doing fine. did your consideration of a divorce from your husband have anything to do with his ideas and political opinions? mrs. oswald. no. the only reasons were personal ones with reference to our personal relationship, not political reasons. mr. rankin. in your story you say that what was involved was some of his crazy ideas and political opinions. can you tell us what you meant by that? mrs. oswald. this was after the case, after the matter of the divorce. i knew that lee had such political leanings. mr. rankin. with regard to your russian friends, did you find the time when they came less to see you and didn't show as much interest in you? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. can you give us about the time, just approximately when you noticed that difference? mrs. oswald. soon after arriving in dallas. mostly it was de mohrenschildt who visited us. he was the only one who remained our friend. the others sort of removed themselves. mr. rankin. do you know why that was? mrs. oswald. because they saw that lee's attitude towards them was not very proper, he was not very hospitable, and he was not glad to see them. they felt that he did not like them. mr. rankin. will you describe what you observed that caused you to think this, or how your husband acted in regard to these friends? mrs. oswald. he told me that he did not like them, that he did not want them to come to visit. mr. rankin. did he show any signs of that attitude towards them? mrs. oswald. yes, he was not very talkative when they came for a visit. sometimes he would even quarrel with them. mr. rankin. when he quarreled with them, was it in regard to political ideas or what subjects? mrs. oswald. yes, they would not agree with him when he talked on political matters. mr. rankin. do you recall any conversation that you can describe to us? mrs. oswald. of course it is difficult to remember all the conversations. but i know that they had a difference of opinion with reference to political matters. my russian friends did not approve of everything. i am trying to formulate it more exactly. they did not like the fact that he was an american who had gone to russia. i think that is all. all that i can remember. mr. rankin. what did they say about---- mrs. oswald. excuse me. simply i would be busy, and i didn't listen to the conversation. mr. rankin. can you recall anything else about the conversation or the substance of it? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. when did you first consider the possibility of returning to the soviet union? mrs. oswald. i never considered that, but i was forced to because lee insisted on it. mr. rankin. when you considered it, as you were forced to, by his insistence, do you know when it was with reference to your first request to the embassy, which was february , ? mrs. oswald. february ? mr. rankin. yes. mrs. oswald. i think it was a couple of weeks before that, at the beginning of february. mr. rankin. did your husband know about the letter you sent to the embassy on february ? mrs. oswald. of course. he handed me the paper, a pencil, and said, "write." mr. rankin. did he tell you what to put in the letter, or was that your own drafting? mrs. oswald. no, i knew myself what i had to write, and these were my words. what could i do if my husband didn't want to live with me? at least that is what i thought. mr. rankin. did you ever have arguments with your husband about smoking and drinking wine, other things like that? mrs. oswald. about drinking wine, no. but he didn't like the fact that i smoked, because he neither smoked nor drank. it would have been better if he had smoked and drank. mr. rankin. can you tell us approximately when you first met ruth paine? mrs. oswald. soon after new years--i think it was in january. mr. rankin. would that be ? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. can you describe the circumstances when you met her? mrs. oswald. we were invited, together with george de mohrenschildt and his wife, to the home of his friend, an american. and ruth was acquainted with that american. she was also visiting there. and there were a number of other people there, americans. mr. rankin. who was this friend? do you recall? mrs. oswald. i don't remember his last name. if you would suggest, perhaps i could say. mr. rankin. was that mr. glover? mrs. oswald. what is his first name? mr. rankin. everett. mrs. oswald. yes. i don't know his last name. mr. rankin. did you talk to mrs. paine in russian at that time? mrs. oswald. a little, yes. mr. rankin. did mrs. paine ever visit you at elsbeth street? mrs. oswald. at neely, on neely street. mr. rankin. but not at elsbeth? mrs. oswald. we moved soon after that acquaintance. mr. rankin. how did your husband treat june? was he a good father? mrs. oswald. oh, yes, very good. mr. rankin. did you notice any difference in his attitude towards your child after you saw this change in his personality? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. will you describe to the commission how your husband treated the baby, and some of his acts, what he did? mrs. oswald. he would walk with june, play with her, feed her, change diapers, take photographs--everything that fathers generally do. mr. rankin. he showed considerable affection for her at all times, did he? mrs. oswald. yes. if i would punish june, he would punish me. mr. rankin. when did you first meet michael paine? mrs. oswald. after i became acquainted with ruth and she visited me for the first time, she asked me to come for a visit to her. this was on a friday. her husband, michael, came for us and drove us to their home in irving. mr. rankin. they were living together at that time, were they? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. did michael paine know russian? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. at the time of the walker incident, do you recall whether your husband had his job or had lost it? mrs. oswald. you had said that this had happened on a wednesday, and it seems to me that it was on a friday that he was told that he was discharged. he didn't tell me about it until monday. mr. rankin. but it was on the preceding friday that he was discharged, was it not? mrs. oswald. no, not the preceding friday--the friday after the incident. that is what he told me. mr. rankin. if he had lost his job before the walker incident, you didn't know it then? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. on the day of the walker shooting did he appear to go to work as usual? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. and when did he return that day, do you recall? mrs. oswald. late at night, about . mr. rankin. he did not come home for dinner then, before? mrs. oswald. yes, he had come home, and then left again. mr. rankin. did you notice any difference in his actions when he returned home and had dinner? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. did he appear to be excited, nervous? mrs. oswald. no, he was quite calm. but it seemed to me that inside he was tense. mr. rankin. how could you tell that? mrs. oswald. i could tell by his face. i knew lee. sometimes when some thing would happen he wouldn't tell me about it, but i could see it in his eyes, that something had happened. mr. rankin. and you saw it this day, did you? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. when did he leave the home after dinner? mrs. oswald. i think it was about . perhaps : . mr. rankin. did you observe whether he took any gun with him? mrs. oswald. no. he went downstairs. we lived on the second floor. he said, "bye-bye." mr. rankin. did you look to see if the gun had been taken when he did not return? mrs. oswald. no, i didn't look to see. mr. rankin. mr. chairman, we have gone our hour. the chairman. yes. i think we will take a minute recess now, so you might refresh yourself. mrs. oswald. thank you. (brief recess.) the chairman. the commission will be in order. mr. rankin, you may continue. mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, you told us about your knowledge about the trip to mexico and said that you were under oath and were going to tell us all about what you knew. did your husband ever ask you not to disclose what you knew about the mexican trip? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. and when was that? mrs. oswald. before he left. i had remained and he was supposed to leave on the next day, and he warned me not to tell anyone about it. mr. rankin. after he returned to dallas from his mexico trip, did he say anything to you then about not telling he had been to mexico? mrs. oswald. yes, he asked me whether i had told ruth about it or anyone else, and i told him no, and he said that i should keep quiet about it. mr. rankin. i will hand you exhibit for identification, and ask you if you recall seeing that document before. mrs. oswald. yes, this is the note that i found in connection with the walker incident. mr. rankin. that you already testified about? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. and there is attached to it a purported english translation. the chairman. do you want that marked and introduced at this time, mr. rankin? mr. rankin. yes, i would like to offer the document. the chairman. the document may be marked exhibit and offered in evidence. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. rankin. can you tell us what your husband meant when he said on that note, "the red cross also will help you." mrs. oswald. i understand that if he were arrested and my money would run out, i would be able to go to the red cross for help. mr. rankin. had you ever discussed that possibility before you found the note? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. do you know why he left you the address book? mrs. oswald. because it contained the addresses and telephone numbers of his and my friends in russia and here. mr. rankin. and you had seen that book before and knew its contents, did you? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. i will hand you exhibit for identification and ask you if you know what that is. mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. do you know whether or not that is a photograph of the walker house in dallas? mrs. oswald. i didn't see it--at least--taken from this view i can't recognize it. i know that the photograph of walker's home which i saw showed a two-story house. but i don't recognize it from this view. i never saw the house itself at any time in my life. mr. rankin. does exhibit for identification appear to be the picture that you described yesterday of the walker house that you thought your husband had taken and put in his book? mrs. oswald. no. perhaps this was in his notebook. but i don't remember this particular one. the chairman. mr. rankin, do you want this in the record? mr. rankin. mr. chairman, she hasn't been able to identify that sufficiently. mrs. oswald. excuse me. perhaps there are some other photographs there that i might be able to recognize. mr. rankin. i will present some more to you, and possibly you can then pick out the walker house. mrs. oswald. i know these photographs. mr. rankin. i now hand you a photograph which has been labeled exhibit for identification. i ask if you can identify the subject of that photograph, or those photographs. mrs. oswald. all of them? mr. rankin. whichever ones you can. mrs. oswald. i know one shows walker's house. another is a photograph from leningrad. p- --this is probably new orleans. p- --leningrad. it is a photograph showing the castle square in leningrad. mr. rankin. can you point out by number the photograph of the walker house? mrs. oswald. p- . mr. rankin. do you know whether the photographs on exhibit for identification were part of your husband's photographs? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. mr. chairman, i offer exhibit for identification in evidence. the chairman. it may be admitted. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit , and received in evidence.) mr. dulles. what is being offered--the whole of it, or just p- ? mr. rankin. no, all of it--because she identified the others, too, as a part of the photographs that belonged to her husband. and she pointed out p- as being the walker residence. when did you first see this photograph of the walker residence, p- , in this exhibit ? mrs. oswald. after the walker incident lee showed it to me. mr. rankin. and how did you know it was a photograph of the walker residence? mrs. oswald. he told me that. mr. rankin. i hand you exhibit for identification. i ask you if you can identify the photographs there. mrs. oswald. yes, these are all our photographs. p- is walker's house. p- and p- is a photograph showing me and a girlfriend of mine in minsk, after a new year's party, on the morning, on january . before i was married. this was taken early in the morning, after we had stayed overnight in the suburbs. p- shows paul--pavel golovachev. he is assembling a television set. he sent us this photograph. he is from minsk. he worked in the same factory as lee did. mr. rankin. can you tell us which one is the picture of the walker house on that exhibit? mrs. oswald. p- . mr. rankin. and when did you first see that exhibit, p- , of exhibit ? mrs. oswald. together with the other one. p- and p- , i know that they are lee's photographs, but i don't know what they depict. mr. rankin. were you shown the p- photograph of that exhibit at the same time you were shown the other one that you have identified regarding the walker house? mrs. oswald. it seems to me that that is so. i don't remember exactly. it is hard to remember. mr. rankin. and was that the evening after your husband returned from the walker shooting? mrs. oswald. no. this was on one of the succeeding days. mr. rankin. by succeeding, you mean within two or three days after the shooting? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. mr. chairman, i offer in evidence exhibit . the chairman. it may be admitted. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and was received in evidence.) mrs. oswald. i don't remember the photograph, the first one that you showed me. i only assumed that was walker's house. mr. rankin. but the other ones, you do remember those photographs? mrs. oswald. yes, the others i do. mr. rankin. when you say you do not remember the picture of the walker house, you are referring to the exhibit for identification that we did not offer in evidence, that i will show you now? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. do you recall that your husband showed you any other exhibits that were pictures of the walker house at the time he discussed the walker shooting with you, beyond those that i have shown you? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. i shall hand you exhibit---- mrs. oswald. there was some railroad--not just a photograph of a house. perhaps there were some others. there were several photographs. mr. rankin. i shall hand you exhibit for identification---- mrs. oswald. one photograph with a car. mr. rankin. ----if you can recall the photographs on that exhibit. mrs. oswald. as for p- and p- , i don't know what they are. p- , that is lee in the army. p- , i don't know what that is. p- , i did see this photograph with lee--he showed it to me after the incident. mr. rankin. when your husband showed you the photograph p- , did he discuss with you what that showed, how it related to the walker shooting? mrs. oswald. no. i simply see that this is a photograph of a railroad. it was in that book. and i guessed, myself, that it had some sort of relationship to the incident. mr. rankin. i offer in evidence photographs p- and p- on this exhibit. the chairman. they may be admitted, and take the next number. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. rankin. now, i shall hand you exhibit for identification and ask you if you recognize those two photographs. mrs. oswald. yes. these photographs i know, both of them. they seem to be identical. walker's house. mr. rankin. when did you first see those exhibits? mrs. oswald. after the incident. mr. rankin. about the same time that you saw the other pictures of the walker house that you have described? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. did your husband tell you why he had these photographs? mrs. oswald. he didn't tell me, but i guessed, myself--i concluded myself that these photographs would help him in that business. mr. rankin. that is the business of the shooting at the walker house? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. i offer in evidence the two photographs in this exhibit. the chairman. they may be admitted and take the next number. (the documents referred to were marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. rankin. before you told the commission about the walker shooting, and your knowledge, did you tell anyone else about it? mrs. oswald. yes, to the members of the secret service and the fbi. mr. rankin. did you tell your mother-in-law? mrs. oswald. yes, i also told his mother about it. mr. rankin. when did you tell his mother about the incident? mrs. oswald. after lee was arrested, on saturday--he was arrested on friday. i don't remember when i met with his mother--whether it was on the same friday--yes, friday evening. i met her at the police station. from there we went to ruth paine's where i lived at that time. and she remained overnight, stayed overnight there. i had a photograph of lee with the rifle, which i gave. at that time i spoke very little english. i explained as best i could about it. and that is why i showed her the photograph. and i told her that lee had wanted to kill walker. mr. rankin. now, turning to the period when you were in new orleans, did you write to the russian embassy about going to russia, returning to russia at that time? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. was that about the first part of july, that you wrote? mrs. oswald. probably. mr. rankin. and then did you write a second letter to follow up the first one? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. i hand you exhibit for identification and ask you if that is the first letter that you sent to the embassy. take your time and look at it. mrs. oswald. this was not the first letter, but it was the first letter written from new orleans. mr. rankin. will you examine the photostat that has just been handed to you, and tell us whether or not that was the first letter that you wrote to the embassy about this matter? mrs. oswald. no, this is a reply to my first letter. mr. rankin. will you examine the one that you now have, and state whether that is the first letter? mrs. oswald. yes, this was the first. this was only the declaration. but there was a letter in addition to it. mr. rankin. the declaration was a statement that you wished to return to the soviet russia? mrs. oswald. yes, about granting me a visa. mr. rankin. and what date does that bear? mrs. oswald. it is dated march , . mr. rankin. and did you send it with your letter about the date that it bears? mrs. oswald. yes. i don't know--perhaps a little later, because i was not very anxious to send this. mr. rankin. but you did send it? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. and it might have been within a few days or a few weeks of that time? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. dulles. do we have the date of the second letter? mr. rankin. i want to go step by step. mr. dulles. yes, i understand. that is not introduced yet. mr. rankin. it might be confusing if we get them out of order. mrs. oswald. yes, this is the first letter. mr. rankin. now, the photostatic document that you have just referred to as being the first letter, does it bear a date? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. do you recall the date? mrs. oswald. it says there the th of february. mr. rankin. and do you know that that letter had attached to it your declaration that you just referred to? mrs. oswald. yes, it seems to me. perhaps it was attached to the next letter. i am not sure. mr. rankin. this letter of february that you referred to as the first letter is in your handwriting? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. will you examine the translation into english that is attached to it and inform us whether or not that is a correct translation? mrs. oswald. i can't do that, because---- mr. rankin. mr. interpreter, can you help us in that regard, and tell her whether it is a correct translation? mr. krimer. if i may translate it from the english, she could check it. mr. rankin. would you kindly do that? mrs. oswald. that is a quite correct translation. i didn't want to, but i had to compose some such letters. mr. rankin. i offer in evidence the photostatic copy of the letter in russian as exhibit . the chairman. together with the translation that is attached to it? mr. rankin. together with the translation that is attached to it as exhibit . the chairman. it may be admitted and take the next number. (the documents referred to were marked commission exhibit nos. and , respectively, and received in evidence.) mr. rankin. i hand you again the declaration, exhibit , and ask you if that accompanied the first letter, exhibit , that you have referred to? mrs. oswald. i don't remember whether it accompanied the first letter or the second letter with which i had enclosed some photographs and filled out questionnaires. mr. rankin. i hand you exhibit and ask you if that is the second letter that you have just referred to. mrs. oswald. no, this was perhaps the third. perhaps i could help you, if you would show me all the letters, i would show you the sequence. mr. rankin. i hand you exhibit , dated march , , and ask you if you can tell whether that is the letter which accompanied the declaration. mrs. oswald. this is a reply from the embassy, a reply to my first letter. mr. rankin. mr. chairman, may we have a short recess to get the original exhibits that we have prepared, and i think we can expedite our hearing. the chairman. very well. we will have a short recess. (brief recess.) the chairman. the commission will come to order. we will proceed. mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, we will see if we have these in proper order now. i will call your attention to the photostats of the declaration and the accompanying papers that i shall now call exhibit to replace the references to exhibit and that we made in prior testimony, and ask you to examine that and see if they were sent together by you to the embassy. mrs. oswald. i sent this after i received an answer from the embassy, an answer to my first letter. this is one and the same. two separate photostats of the same declaration. all of these documents were attached to my second letter after the answer to my first. mr. rankin. i call your attention to exhibit , and ask you if that is the answer to your first letter that you have just referred to. mrs. oswald. yes, this is the answer to that letter. mr. rankin. will you compare the translation? mrs. oswald. the only thing is that the address and the telephone number of the embassy are not shown in the russian original. they are in the translation. mr. rankin. otherwise the translation is correct, is it? mrs. oswald. otherwise, yes. mr. rankin. mr. chairman, i ask leave to substitute the exhibit no. for what i have called , as the reply of the embassy, so that we won't be confused about the order of these. the chairman. the correction may be made. mr. rankin. i offer in evidence the original and the translation of exhibit , except for the address of the embassy, which was not on the original. the chairman. it may be admitted, and take the next number. (the documents referred to were marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. rankin. now, as i understand, what i will call exhibit now, to correct the order in which these letters were sent to the embassy, was your response to the letter of the embassy dated march , is that correct? mrs. oswald. yes, sir. mr. rankin. will you compare the translation with the interpreter and advise us if it is correct? mr. krimer. it says, "application" in the translation; the russian word is "declaration". mr. rankin. will you note that correction, mr. krimer, please? mr. krimer. in pencil? mr. rankin. yes. mr. krimer. crossing out the word "application". mrs. oswald. that is correct. mr. krimer. sir, this was a printed questionnaire, and there is a translator note on here which states that since printed questions are given both in russian and english translation, only the answer portion of the document is being translated. mrs. oswald. that is correct. mr. rankin. you have now examined exhibit and the translation into english from that exhibit where it was in russian and compared them with the interpreter, have you? mrs. oswald. yes, correct. mr. rankin. do you find the translation is correct? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. i offer in evidence exhibit , being the russian communications, and the english translations. the chairman. the documents may be admitted with the next number. (the documents referred to were marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, do you recall that in the letter from the embassy of march , which is known as commission's exhibit , that you were told that the time of processing would take to months? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. did you discuss that with your husband? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. and about when did you do that? mrs. oswald. what is the date of that letter? mr. rankin. march . mrs. oswald. at that time we did not discuss it. we discussed it in new orleans. or more correctly, we thought that if everything is in order, i would be able to leave before the birth of my second child. mr. rankin. and did you discuss that idea with your husband? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. and you think that you discussed it with him while you were at new orleans? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. do you recall that it is also requested in the letter of march from the embassy, commission's exhibit , that you furnish one or two letters from relatives residing in the soviet union who were inviting you to live with them? mrs. oswald. yes, but i didn't have any such letters and i did not enclose any. mr. rankin. you never did send such letters to the embassy, did you? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. after you sent exhibit to the embassy, did you have further correspondence with them? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. i will hand you exhibit , a letter purporting to be from the embassy dated april , and ask you if you recall that. mrs. oswald. yes, i remember that. mr. rankin. will you please compare the translation with the russian? mrs. oswald. yes, the translation is correct. mr. rankin. we offer the exhibit in evidence, together with the translation. the chairman. it may be admitted with the next number. (the documents referred to were marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. rankin. did you note that the embassy invited you to come and visit them personally? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. did you ever do that? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. i hand you a letter purporting to be from the embassy, dated june , marked exhibit , and ask you if you recall receiving that? mrs. oswald. yes. this is a second request to visit the embassy. mr. rankin. will you please compare the translation with the russian? mrs. oswald. correct. mr. rankin. we offer in evidence exhibit , being the russian letter from the embassy together with the english translation. the chairman. it may be admitted and take the next number. (the documents referred to were marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) the chairman. we will now recess for lunch. the commission will reconvene at o'clock. (whereupon, at : p.m., the commission recessed.) afternoon session testimony of mrs. lee harvey oswald resumed the president's commission reconvened at p.m. the chairman. the commission will convene. mr. rankin, you may continue. mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, i will now give you exhibit to examine and ask you to compare the russian with the english translation. mrs. oswald. the translation is correct. mr. rankin. i offer in evidence exhibit , being the russian letter, and the english translation. the chairman. the documents are admitted under that number. (the documents referred to were marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. rankin. now, this exhibit that you have just examined in russian, is that your letter, mrs. oswald, to the embassy? mrs. oswald. is that no. ? mr. rankin. yes. mrs. oswald. yes, it is. mr. rankin. and is it in your handwriting? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. did you find any date on the letter? i didn't. mrs. oswald. i probably didn't date it. no. i wrote this from new orleans. mr. rankin. can you tell the commission the approximate date you wrote it? mrs. oswald. what was the date of the preceding letter, no. --exhibit no. ? mr. rankin. june , . mrs. oswald. this was probably in july, but i don't know the date. mr. rankin. do you notice there was a "p.s." on exhibit ? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. referring to an application by your husband? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. and was an application for your husband for a visa included or enclosed with exhibit when you sent it? mrs. oswald. lee told me that he had sent an application, but it was he who put this letter in an envelope and addressed it, so i don't know whether it was there or not. mr. rankin. and when you say that it was he that put the letter into the envelope and addressed it, you mean this exhibit , that was a letter that you had written? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. do i understand you correctly that you do not know whether his application was included because he handled the mailing of it? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. i will hand you exhibit and ask you if you recall that? mrs. oswald. i don't remember this. he did not write this in my presence. but it is lee's handwriting. mr. rankin. mr. krimer, will you please translate it for her so she will know the contents. mrs. oswald. why "separately"--the word "separately" here is underlined. mr. rankin. i was going to ask you. but since you have not seen it before, i guess you cannot help us. is this the first time that you knew that he had ever asked that his visa be handled separately from yours? mrs. oswald. yes, i didn't know this. because i hadn't seen this letter. mr. rankin. i offer in evidence exhibit . the chairman. it may be admitted. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. rankin. is the word "separately" the last word of the letter that you are referring to--that is the word that you asked about? mrs. oswald. yes. was that underlined by lee? mr. rankin. that is the way we received it, mrs. oswald. we assume it was underlined by your husband. we know that it was not underlined by the commission, and no one in the government that had anything to do with it has ever told us that they had anything to do with underlining it. mrs. oswald. i think that perhaps he asked for that visa to be considered separately because the birth of the child might complicate matters, and perhaps he thought it would speed it up if they do consider it separately. mr. rankin. in connection with that thought, i will hand you exhibit , and ask you to examine that and tell us whether you have seen that before. mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. will you please compare the translation in english? mrs. oswald. yes, the translation is all right. mr. rankin. i offer in evidence the letter in russian, exhibit , and the english translation. the chairman. it may be admitted under that number. (the documents referred to were marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. rankin. did you have any impression that your husband may not have planned to go back to russia himself, but was merely trying to arrange for you and your daughter to go back? mrs. oswald. at that time i did not think so, but now i think perhaps. because he planned to go to cuba. mr. rankin. by that you mean you think he may have planned to go to cuba and never go beyond cuba, but stay in cuba? mrs. oswald. i think that in time he would have wanted to come and see me. mr. rankin. i hand you exhibit and ask you whether you remember having seen that before. mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. can you tell whether your husband's handwriting is on that exhibit? mrs. oswald. the signature is his, yes. i would like to have it translated. mr. rankin. would you translate it for her, please, mr. krimer? mrs. oswald. a crazy letter. perhaps from this i could conclude that he did want to go to the soviet union--but now i am lost, i don't know. because--perhaps because nothing came out of his cuban business, perhaps that is why he decided to go to the soviet union. the letter is not too polite, in my opinion. mr. rankin. i offer in evidence exhibit . the chairman. it may be admitted. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. rankin. mr. chief justice, i think in the examination about this letter, if i would circulate it to the commission it would be a little clearer what it is all about--if you could have a moment or two to examine it, i think it would help in your understanding of the examination. mrs. oswald. this was typed on the typewriter belonging to ruth. mr. rankin. you can tell that by the looks of the typing, can you, mrs. oswald? mrs. oswald. no, i don't know, but i know that he was typing there. i don't know what he was typing. mr. rankin. and it is ruth paine's typewriter that you are referring to, when you say ruth? mrs. oswald. ruth paine. because lee did not have a typewriter, and it is hardly likely that he would have had it typed somewhere else. mr. rankin. i hand you exhibit , which purports to be the envelope for the letter, exhibit . have you ever seen that? mrs. oswald. the envelope i did see. i did not see the letter, but i did see the envelope. lee had retyped it some times or so. mr. rankin. do you recall or could you clarify for us about the date on the envelope--whether it is november or november ? mrs. oswald. november . mr. rankin. i offer in evidence exhibit . the chairman. it may be admitted. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. rankin. i might call your attention, mrs. oswald, to the fact that exhibit , the letter, is dated november . does that help you any? mrs. oswald. yes. then this must be . mr. rankin. that is the only way you can determine it, is it? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. did you have anything to do with the mailing of this letter, exhibit ? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. yesterday you testified to the fact that your husband told you about his trip to mexico when he returned, is that right? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. where were you when he told you about it? mrs. oswald. in the home of mrs. paine, in my room. mr. rankin. was there anyone other than yourself and your husband present when he told you about it? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. will you tell us in as much detail as you can remember just what he said about the trip at that time? mrs. oswald. everything that i could remember i told you yesterday. i don't remember any more about it. mr. rankin. at that time---- mrs. oswald. but i asked him that we not go to russia, i told him that i did not want to, and he said, "okay." mr. rankin. that was in this same conversation, after he had told you about the trip to mexico? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. when he asked you not to tell anyone about the trip to mexico, did he tell you why he asked you to do that? mrs. oswald. no. i knew that he was secretive, and that he loved to make secrets of things. mr. rankin. did you know the comrade kostin that is referred to in this letter of november , exhibit ? mrs. oswald. i never wrote to him. i don't know. i don't know where he got that name from. mr. rankin. did your husband say anything about comrade kostin and his visit with him at the embassy in mexico city, when he told you about the trip? mrs. oswald. he did not name him. he didn't tell me his name. but he told me he was a very pleasant, sympathetic person, who greeted him, welcomed him there. mr. rankin. did your husband say anything to you about what he meant when he said he could not take a chance on requesting a new visa unless he used a real name, so he returned to the united states? mrs. oswald. no, he didn't tell me about it. mr. rankin. did you understand that he had used any assumed name about going to mexico? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. he never told you anything of that kind? mrs. oswald. no. after lee returned from mexico, i lived in dallas, and lee gave me his phone number and then when he changed his apartment--lee lived in dallas, and he gave me his phone number. and then when he moved, he left me another phone number. and once when he did not come to visit during the weekend, i telephoned him and asked for him by name--rather, ruth telephoned him and it turned out there was no one there by that name. when he telephoned me again on monday, i told him that we had telephoned him but he was unknown at that number. then he said that he had lived there under an assumed name. he asked me to remove the notation of the telephone number in ruth's phone book, but i didn't want to do that. i asked him then, "why did you give us a phone number, when we do call we cannot get you by name?" he was very angry, and he repeated that i should remove the notation of the phone number from the phone book. and, of course, we had a quarrel. i told him that this was another of his foolishness, some more of his foolishness. i told ruth paine about this. it was incomprehensible to me why he was so secretive all the time. mr. rankin. did he give you any explanation of why he was using an assumed name at that time? mrs. oswald. he said that he did not want his landlady to know his real name because she might read in the paper of the fact that he had been in russia and that he had been questioned. mr. rankin. what did you say about that? mrs. oswald. nothing. and also he did not want the fbi to know where he lived. mr. rankin. did he tell you why he did not want the fbi to know where he lived? mrs. oswald. because their visits were not very pleasant for him and he thought that he loses jobs because the fbi visits the place of his employment. mr. rankin. now, if he was using an assumed name during the trip in mexico, you didn't know about it, is that correct? mrs. oswald. i didn't know, that is correct. mr. rankin. before the trip to mexico, did your husband tell you that he did not expect to contact the soviet embassy there about the visa? mrs. oswald. he said that he was going to visit the soviet embassy, but more for the purpose of getting to cuba, to try to get to cuba. i think that was more than anything a masking of his purpose. he thought that this would help. mr. rankin. you mean it was a masking of his purpose to visit the soviet embassy in mexico, or to write it in this letter? mrs. oswald. i don't understand the question. mr. rankin. you noticed where he said in this letter "i had not planned to contact the soviet embassy in mexico," did you not? mrs. oswald. why hadn't he planned that? mr. rankin. that is what i am trying to find out from you. did he ever tell you that he didn't plan to visit the soviet embassy? mrs. oswald. this is not the truth. he did want to contact the embassy. mr. rankin. and he told you before he went to mexico that he planned to visit the soviet embassy, did he? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. did he ever say to you before he went to mexico that he planned to communicate with the soviet embassy in havana? mrs. oswald. yes, he said that if he would be able to get to cuba, with the intention of living there, he would get in touch with the soviet embassy for the purpose of bringing me there. or for him to go to russia. because sometimes he really sincerely wanted to go to russia and live and sometimes not. he did not know, himself. he was very changeable. mr. rankin. but in exhibit , mrs. oswald, he refers to the fact that he hadn't been able to reach the soviet embassy in havana as planned, and then he says, "the embassy there would have had time to complete our business." now, did he discuss that at all with you before he went to mexico? mrs. oswald. yes. if he said in mexico city that he wanted to visit the soviet embassy in havana, the reason for it was only that he thereby would be able to get to cuba. is this understandable? does this clarify the matter or not? mr. rankin. the difficulty, mrs. oswald, with my understanding of exhibit is that he purports to say, as i read the letter, that if he had been able to reach the soviet embassy in havana, he would have been able to complete his business about the visa, and he wouldn't have had to get in touch with the soviet embassy in mexico city at all. mrs. oswald. the thing is that one cannot go to cuba--that the only legal way is via mexico city. and, therefore, he went to the soviet embassy there in mexico city and told them that he wanted to visit the soviet embassy in havana, but only for the purpose of getting into cuba. i don't think he would have concluded his business there. i don't think that you understand that lee has written that letter in a quite involved manner. it is not very logical. i don't know whether it is clear to you or not. mr. rankin. i appreciate, mrs. oswald, your interpretation of it. i was trying to find out also whether your husband had told you anything about what he meant or what he did or whether he had tried to contact the embassy in havana, as he says in this letter. mrs. oswald. yes. i don't know of this letter. i only know that lee wanted to get to cuba by any means. mr. rankin. then he next proceeds to say, "of course the soviet embassy was not at fault. they were, as i say, unprepared". as i read that, i understand that he was trying to let the embassy in washington know that the mexico city embassy had not been notified by him, and, therefore, was unprepared. now, did he say anything like that to you after his return to mexico? mrs. oswald. why did the embassy in washington have to notify the embassy in mexico city that lee oswald was arriving? it is not that i am asking. it seems to me that this is not a normal thing. mr. rankin. the question is did he say anything to you about it when he got back? mrs. oswald. he said that when he went to the soviet embassy in mexico city they had promised him that they would write a letter to the embassy in washington. please excuse me, but it is very difficult for me to read the involved thoughts of lee. i think that he was confused himself, and i certainly am. mr. rankin. is that all that you can recall that was said about that matter? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. then he goes on to say---- mrs. oswald. excuse me. i only know that his basic desire was to get to cuba by any means, and that all the rest of it was window dressing for that purpose. mr. rankin. then in this exhibit he proceeds to say, "the cuban consulate was guilty of a gross breach of regulations." do you know what he meant by that? mrs. oswald. what regulations--what are the regulations? mr. rankin. i am trying to find out from you. mrs. oswald. i don't know about that. i don't know what happened. mr. rankin. did he ever say what regulations he thought were breached, or that the cuban embassy didn't carry out regulations when he returned from his trip and told you about what happened there? mrs. oswald. i don't know. mr. rankin. then he goes on to say in the exhibit, "i am glad he has since been replaced." do you know whom he was referring to? mrs. oswald. i have no knowledge of it. i think that if the person to whom this letter was addressed would read the letter he wouldn't understand anything, either. mr. rankin. your husband goes on in exhibit to say, "the federal bureau of investigation is not now interested in my activities in the progressive organization 'fair play for cuba committee' of which i was secretary in new orleans (state of louisiana) since i no longer reside in that state." do you know why he would say anything like that to the embassy? mrs. oswald. because he was crazy. he wrote this in order to emphasize his importance. he was no secretary of any--he was not a secretary of any organization. mr. rankin. do you know that he had received any inquiry from the embassy or anyone of the soviet union about the matters that he is telling about here? mrs. oswald. no. i don't know. mr. rankin. then he goes on to say, "however, the fbi has visited us here in dallas, texas, on november . agent james p. hosty"--do you know whether there was such a visit by that man? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. and was he referring to the man that you know as james p. hosty? mrs. oswald. i don't know his last name. he gave us his telephone number, but it seems to me that his name was different. mr. rankin. after you received the telephone number, what did you do with it? mrs. oswald. he gave the telephone number to ruth, and she, in turn, passed it on to lee. mr. rankin. do you know whether he put it in a book or did anything with it? mrs. oswald. he took the note with him to dallas. i don't know what he did with it. mr. rankin. did the agent also give his license number for his car to mrs. paine or to you or to your husband? mrs. oswald. no. but lee had asked me that if an fbi agent were to call, that i note down his automobile license number, and i did that. mr. rankin. did you give the license number to him when you noted it down? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. now, he goes on to say that this agent, james p. hosty "warned me that if i engaged in fpcc activities in texas the fbi will again take an 'interest' in me." do you remember anything about anything like that? mrs. oswald. i don't know why he said that in there, because if he has in mind the man who visited us, that man had never seen lee. he was talking to me and to mrs. paine. but he had never met lee. perhaps this is another agent, not the one who visited us. but i don't know whether lee had talked to him or not. mr. rankin. do you know whether any fbi agent had ever warned your husband that if he engaged in any fair play for cuba activities in texas, the fbi would be again interested in him? mrs. oswald. no, i didn't know that. mr. rankin. then in the exhibit he goes on to say, "this agent also 'suggested' to marina nichilyeva that she could remain in the united states under fbi protection." did you ever hear of anything like that before? mrs. oswald. i had not been proposed anything of the sort at any time. the only thing the agent did say is that if i had ever any kind of difficulties or troubles in the sense that someone would try to force me to do something, to become an agent, then i should get in touch with him, and that if i don't want to do this, that they would help me. but they never said that i live here and that i must remain here under their protection. mr. rankin. then in this exhibit he goes on to explain what he means by the word "protection", saying "that is, she could defect from the soviet union, of course." do you remember anybody saying anything like that to you? mrs. oswald. no, no one said anything like that. mr. rankin. did anyone at any time, while you were in the united states, suggest that you become an agent of any agency of the united states? mrs. oswald. no, never. mr. rankin. did anyone from the soviet union suggest that you be an agent for that government, or any of its agencies? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. now, in this exhibit , your husband goes on to say, "i and my wife strongly protested tactics by the notorious fbi." do you know of any protest of that kind, or any action of that kind? mrs. oswald. i don't know of any protests, but simply that i said that i would prefer not to get these visits, because they have a very exciting and disturbing effect upon my husband. but it was not a protest. this was simply a request. mr. rankin. and you never made any protests against anyone asking you to act as an agent or to defect to the united states because no one asked you that, is that right? mrs. oswald. no one ever asked me. mr. rankin. do you know of anything that you could tell the commission in regard to these matters in this letter, exhibit , that would shed more light on what your husband meant or what he was trying to do, that you have not already told us? mrs. oswald. everything that i could tell you with reference to this letter i have told you. the chairman. i think we will take a short recess now, about minutes. mrs. oswald. i would like to help you, but i simply don't know, i cannot. (brief recess) the chairman. the commission will be in order. mr. rankin, you may proceed. mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, i will hand you again exhibit and the translation from the russian and call your attention to the urgency of your request there. i ask you, was that your idea to press for help from the embassy in regard to the visa, or your husband's? mrs. oswald. of course my husband. mr. rankin. at the time of exhibit , then, you were not anxious to return to russia? mrs. oswald. i never wanted to return but lee insisted and there is nothing else i could do. but sometimes when i wrote these letters, i felt very lonely--since my husband didn't want me, i felt perhaps this would be the best way. mr. rankin. do you know the spanish language? mrs. oswald. perhaps five words. mr. rankin. have you given it any study? mrs. oswald. no. i have a spanish textbook of the spanish language and i had intended to study even while i was still in russia, but i never did. mr. rankin. did your husband ever study spanish that you know of? mrs. oswald. he didn't study it, but before his trip to mexico he would sit down with the textbook and look at it. mr. rankin. i hand you exhibit and ask you if you recall having seen that before. mrs. oswald. may i take it out? mr. rankin. yes. mrs. oswald. june seems to have played with it. this was lee's study of spanish perhaps because this was all photographed, it is soiled. here i helped lee. i wrote some spanish words. mr. rankin. does that exhibit have any of your husband's handwriting on it? mrs. oswald. some of it is my handwriting and some of it is lee's handwriting. mr. rankin. can you tell us when he was trying to study spanish? was it at any time with regard to the time when he planned to go to cuba? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. about when did he start? mrs. oswald. in august, in new orleans, . mr. rankin. and whatever he did in this notebook, exhibit , he did at that time or thereafter? mrs. oswald. no, this was in september. mr. rankin. did he do whatever writing he did in connection with the study of the spanish language in exhibit at new orleans in august or after that date? mrs. oswald. yes. do you want to know whether this was earlier than august or later? mr. rankin. yes. mrs. oswald. no, not earlier. this was in september, not in august. mr. rankin. and did he do anything in the writing of what is in exhibit in the study of the spanish language at dallas, that you know of? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. i offer in evidence exhibit . the chairman. it may be marked with the next number and received in evidence. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mrs. oswald. how a simple notebook can become a matter of material evidence--the spanish words in it, and june's scribbling on it. mr. rankin. returning to the time that your husband came back from mexico city to dallas, can you tell us what type of luggage he brought back with him? mrs. oswald. he had a military type raincoat with him and a small bag with a zipper, blue in color. mr. rankin. as far as you recall he did not have two bags that he brought back with him from mexico? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. did he spend the first weekend of october to with you at the paines? mrs. oswald. no, not the whole weekend. when he returned he stayed overnight and then he went to dallas. but he returned on saturday or friday evening. and he remained until monday. mr. rankin. did you notice any change in your husband after this trip to mexico? mrs. oswald. in my opinion, he was disappointed at not being able to get to cuba, and he didn't have any great desire to do so any more because he had run into, as he himself said--into bureaucracy and red tape. and he changed for the better. he began to treat me better. mr. rankin. will you tell us how he treated you better? mrs. oswald. he helped me more--although he always did help. but he was more attentive. perhaps this was because he didn't live together with me but stayed in dallas. perhaps, also because we expected a child and he was in somewhat an elated mood. mr. rankin. did your husband have any money with him when he returned from mexico? mrs. oswald. yes, he had some left. but i never counted how much money he had in his wallet. that is why i don't know. mr. rankin. was it a small or a large amount or do you know that? mrs. oswald. what would be a large amount for me would not be a large amount for you. mr. rankin. well, can you give us any estimate of what you think he had? mrs. oswald. he might have had $ or $ , thereabouts. it is necessary sometimes to make a joke. otherwise, it gets boring. mr. rankin. after the first weekend, after your husband returned, which he spent at the paines, as you have described, where did he live in dallas? mrs. oswald. he said that he rented a room in oak cliff, but i don't know the address. i didn't ask, because i didn't need it. mr. rankin. do you know that he lived with a mrs. bledsoe at any time in dallas? mrs. oswald. in what sense do you mean "lived with"? mr. rankin. i mean roomed in her home. mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. that was a place on marsallis street? mrs. oswald. i don't know about it. mr. rankin. how did he return from irving to dallas at that time? mrs. oswald. ruth met him at the bus station at that time and drove him home. by bus. mr. rankin. you said before that you learned about the depository job at some neighbor's home, is that right? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. in whose home was that? mrs. oswald. i don't know her last name. when you walk out of the paine house, it is the first house to the right. i am trying to remember. perhaps later i will. mr. rankin. was it the lady of that house who told you, or someone that was a guest there? mrs. oswald. perhaps you know the name. mr. rankin. we don't know the name of the lady next door. we know a number of names, but not by the location. mrs. oswald. her first name is dorothy. and there was another woman there, another neighbor, who said that her brother worked at the depository, and that as far as she knew, there was a vacancy there. mr. rankin. and what was the name of that neighbor whose brother worked at the depository? mrs. oswald. i don't know. mr. rankin. was that mrs. randle? mrs. oswald. i don't know. i might know her first name if you mention it. mr. rankin. is there a linnie mae randle that you remember? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. was she a sister of mr. frazier? mrs. oswald. i don't know such people. mr. rankin. do you know a mr. frazier that had a job at the depository? mrs. oswald. i didn't know his name. i knew that it was a young man. i don't think he was yet. mr. rankin. and was he the brother of this friend who was at the neighbor's house? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. and he was the one that your husband rode from irving into dallas from time to time to go to work, did he? mrs. oswald. yes, after lee was already working this boy would bring lee and take him back with him to dallas. mr. rankin. and when did he take him, ordinarily? mrs. oswald. o'clock in the morning. mr. rankin. and did he take him on monday morning? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. usually each week he would take him on monday morning? mrs. oswald. when lee came for a weekend, yes. mr. rankin. and then when did he bring him back from dallas? mrs. oswald. at : on friday. mr. rankin. did your husband ever come in the middle of the week? mrs. oswald. no, only during the last week when all of this happened with reference to the assassination of the president--he came on a thursday. mr. rankin. did mrs. paine have anything to do with your husband getting this job at the depository? mrs. oswald. she had no direct connection with it, but an indirect connection, of course. i lived with her and she talked to a neighbor and mentioned that lee was out of work. mr. rankin. was it mrs. paine that found out about the job, then? mrs. oswald. yes. and she telephoned there and asked whether they had a job available. they didn't say anything specific but they asked that lee come there on the following day. mr. rankin. did you find out whether your husband did go there the following day? mrs. oswald. on the following day he went there, had a talk with them, and he telephoned that he had already received the job. mr. rankin. did he telephone to you or to mrs. paine about getting the job? mrs. oswald. he telephoned me. but, of course, he thanked ruth. mr. rankin. and when did he start on the job? was there two or three days before he got the job and started, or more than that? mrs. oswald. i think that he started on the day following being accepted for the job. i think it was either on the th, th, or th of october. mr. rankin. when he was staying at mrs. bledsoe's rooming house, did he call you and give you the number there? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. do you recall where he was when he gave this fictitious name? mrs. oswald. what do you mean where he was? from where he telephoned? mr. rankin. yes, or the number that he gave you--that is the rooming house that he was at when he used this fictitious name, and you told us you called there. mrs. oswald. he lived at first in one place, and then he changed. it was the last place where he had given a fictitious name. i don't know what name he lived under in the first place, because i never telephoned him. mr. rankin. do you know the name that he lived under in the second place, when you did call him? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. you don't remember the fictitious name that he gave you? mrs. oswald. i read in the paper after everything happened, but at that time i didn't know. he said that his last name was lee. he didn't say that. i read that in the paper. mr. rankin. did that remind you, then, that that was the name they gave you when you called and he answered the telephone? mrs. oswald. no, no one told me anything. i didn't know under what name he lived there. mr. rankin. but you found out that he was not living under his own name, is that what you meant before? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. after he got his job, did he return the next weekend to see you? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. do you remember whether that time he returned was on friday or saturday? mrs. oswald. it was on friday, october . it was his birthday. he stopped with ruth. on sunday i went to the hospital, and he stayed overnight from monday until tuesday. mr. rankin. after your husband returned from mexico, did you examine the rifle in the garage at any time? mrs. oswald. i had never examined the rifle in the garage. it was wrapped in a blanket and was lying on the floor. mr. rankin. did you ever check to see whether the rifle was in the blanket? mrs. oswald. i never checked to see that. there was only once that i was interested in finding out what was in that blanket, and i saw that it was a rifle. mr. rankin. when was that? mrs. oswald. about a week after i came from new orleans. mr. rankin. and then you found that the rifle was in the blanket, did you? mrs. oswald. yes, i saw the wooden part of it, the wooden stock. mr. rankin. on the weekend before your husband got his job at the depository, did he spend that with you at the paines? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. did he come home friday or saturday? mrs. oswald. on a friday. mr. rankin. when he returned to dallas on monday, the th of october, did he tell you he was going to change his room? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. do you remember what your husband's pay was at the depository? mrs. oswald. it seems to me that it was also $ . . mr. rankin. about how much a month did it run? mrs. oswald. it seems to me it was $ to $ . mr. rankin. do you recall the hours that he worked? mrs. oswald. it seems that--it seems to me that it was from : a.m. to p.m. mr. rankin. and did he work the weekend or any overtime? mrs. oswald. no. it does happen in that depository that they work overtime. but he did not have to work any. mr. rankin. during the week when he was in dallas and you were at irving, did he call you from time to time? mrs. oswald. daily, twice. mr. rankin. did he leave his telephone number in dallas with you? mrs. oswald. yes. i don't have it, it was in paine's notebook. mr. rankin. did he speak to you in russian when he called you on the telephone? mrs. oswald. yes. sometimes he would try to speak in english when someone was listening, and he didn't want them to know he spoke russian--then he would try to speak in english. mr. rankin. did he ever speak in spanish when he was talking to you from dallas? mrs. oswald. no. he doesn't speak spanish. i don't either. his landlady heard him say "adios" and she decided that he spoke spanish, because she didn't understand that he had spoken russian all that time. mr. rankin. did you have a special celebration for your husband's birthday? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. when was that? mrs. oswald. on october th. mr. rankin. who was there? mrs. oswald. ruth and her children, i, lee, and paine's husband, michael. mr. rankin. did wesley frazier bring your husband home at that time? mrs. oswald. frazier is the last name? wesley was that boy's name. i now remember. mr. rankin. did he bring him home that weekend? mrs. oswald. i don't remember. it seems to me, yes. it is hard to remember now which weekend was which. mr. rankin. on these weekends, did you ever observe your husband going to the garage, practicing with the rifle in any way? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. did you see him leave the house when he could have been going to the garage and practicing with his rifle? mrs. oswald. no, he couldn't have practiced while we were at the paine's, because ruth was there. but whenever she was not at home, he tried to spend as much time as he could with me--he would watch television in the house. but he did go to the garage to look at our things that were there. mr. rankin. and you don't know when he went there what he might have done with the rifle? is that what you mean? mrs. oswald. at least i didn't notice anything. mr. rankin. now, you have described your husband's---- mrs. oswald. excuse me. i think that it takes considerable time to practice with a rifle. he never spent any great deal of time in the garage. mr. rankin. you have described your husband's practicing on the back porch at new orleans with the telescopic scope and the rifle, saying he did that very regularly there. did you ever see him working the bolt, that action that opens the rifle, where you can put a shell in and push it back--during those times? mrs. oswald. i did not see it, because it was dark, and i would be in the room at that time. but i did hear the noise from it from time to time--not often. mr. rankin. do you recall the weekend that you went to the hospital for your baby? mrs. oswald. very well. mr. rankin. did your husband go with you at that time? mrs. oswald. no. ruth drove me at that time. he remained with june because june was crying and we could not leave her with strangers. he wanted to go with me, but we couldn't arrange it any other way. mr. rankin. after the baby was born, did he come and see you? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. did he say anything to you about the baby? mrs. oswald. every father talks a lot. mr. rankin. did he talk about the baby? mrs. oswald. about me and the child--he was very happy. he even had tears in his eyes. mr. rankin. did he call you from irving when you were in the hospital? mrs. oswald. no, he was working at that time, and he called me from work. but i didn't talk to him. he merely asked the nurse how i was doing. mr. rankin. and those conversations would be reported to you by the nurse, then? mrs. oswald. no, she didn't tell me about them. because he telephoned to find out when i should be brought home, and he telephoned ruth and asked her to let him know. but the nurse did tell me that my husband had called. mr. rankin. now, the weekend of october th to the th, did your husband return to irving that weekend? mrs. oswald. there were some weekends when he did not come. but this was at my request. it happened twice, i think. one such weekend was the occasion of the birthday of mrs. paine's daughter. and i knew that lee didn't like michael, mrs. paine's husband, and i asked him not to come. this was one occasion. the other i don't recall. i don't recall the date of this. but i remember that the weekend before he shot at the president, he did not come on saturday and sunday. because we had a quarrel--that incident with the fictitious name. no, i am confused. it would be easier for me to remember if i knew the birthday of that girl. perhaps you know. perhaps you have it noted down somewhere. mr. rankin. you are asking me the birthday of mrs. paine's daughter? mrs. oswald. because i know that the fbi questioned me about it, and they had made a note about it. because they wanted to determine each time when he did come and when did not. mr. rankin. now, if it was the weekend of november th and th that he remained in dallas, would that help you as to the time of the birthday? mrs. oswald. yes. this was the weekend before the st, and he had not come home that weekend. mr. rankin. now, the neighbor next door that you referred to, where you learned about the job with the depository, could that have been dorothy roberts? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. do you recall that your husband went to some meeting with michael paine in october of ? mrs. oswald. yes. it seems to me--i know for sure that this was one of the fridays. it seems to me that this was the birthday--it was after dinner. they talked in english. i don't know about what. i know that they got together and went to some kind of a meeting. mr. rankin. was that a meeting of the american civil liberties union? mrs. oswald. ruth said something about that, but i didn't understand anything. this was right after the incident with stevenson, who was hit. mr. rankin. was that in the weekend of october th? mrs. oswald. yes, probably. this was not lee's birthday. it was the week after that, the following friday. mr. rankin. now, on october th, saturday, was your husband with you all day? mrs. oswald. yes. all day. whenever he came, he never went anywhere else. mr. rankin. we had some information that a telescopic sight was fitted to a gun for your husband on that date, and that is why i am asking you if there was any time that he could have left to have that done. mrs. oswald. how is it about the telescope? he always had the telescope. were there two? mr. rankin. we are trying to find out. someone says that they mounted a sight. mrs. oswald. this is not the truth, if they say that. simply people talking. perhaps someone who looked like lee. mr. rankin. someone may be mistaken and thought that he had mounted a telescopic sight when he did it for someone else. and that is why we want to check with you. when your husband went back to work on monday, october th, did he drive with wesley frazier at that time? mrs. oswald. it seems--it seems that he had overslept and that someone else had picked him up. but, no--no, i remember that he did not come to get him, but lee met him near his house. lee told me that. or his sister. i don't remember. lee told me about it. but i have forgotten. mr. rankin. but he did not go in by bus that day? mrs. oswald. no. he said his sister drove him to the bus. i only know that this boy did not come to get him that day. mr. rankin. as far as you know, he may have gone all the way into dallas in a car, or he may have gone in a bus? mrs. oswald. perhaps he hadn't told him to pick him up on that day. i don't know. i only know the fact that the boy did not pick him up on that day. mr. rankin. we have reports of fbi interviews the last part of october, that is october , and also november , and november . we would like to ask you about them, since some of them may have been with mrs. paine in your presence or with you. do you recall one on october th? mrs. oswald. i don't remember the interview. ruth interpreted--she talked to them. mr. rankin. in order that the commission will understand, whenever the fbi would try to ask you any questions, mrs. paine would interpret for you? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. and would she at the same time answer things in english, too, herself? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. so, in effect, the fbi was---- mrs. oswald. excuse me--she loves to talk. mr. rankin. the fbi was interviewing both of you at the same time, to some extent, is that right? mrs. oswald. yes. they asked her about lee, as far as i know. mr. rankin. do you recall that you did have such an interview at mrs. paine's house when she acted as interpreter on november , ? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. were you present on november , , when fbi agents hosty and wilson interviewed mrs. paine at her home? mrs. oswald. i was in my room at that time busy with little rachel, and i heard voices which i thought were voices of the fbi. i came out of the room and they were in a hurry to leave. they did not talk to me at that time, other than just a greeting. mr. rankin. do you know whether or not they had been talking to mrs. paine about you or your husband? mrs. oswald. yes. she told me about it, but i was not especially interested. she does not interpret quite exactly. she is hard to understand. but she told me that in general terms. mr. rankin. you have told us about the fact that you got the telephone number of the fbi agent and gave it to your husband. was that the november interview when that happened? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. i will hand you exhibit , and ask you if you can identify that for us, and tell us what it is. mrs. oswald. lee's notebook. mr. rankin. is your handwriting in that exhibit ? mrs. oswald. it must be, yes, i will find mine. there are many different handwritings in here. different people have written in this notebook. sometimes russian friends in russia would note their address in this notebook. this is mine. mr. rankin. will you tell us--is it a long notation by you? mrs. oswald. no. that is my aunt's address when lee would remain in minsk while i went on vacation. mr. rankin. is much of that notebook, exhibit , in your husband's handwriting? mrs. oswald. the majority, mostly. mr. rankin. except for the page with your handwriting on it and the notations of other friends that you referred to, is it generally in your husband's handwriting? mrs. oswald. i can tell exactly which is noted down by lee and which is noted down by others. mr. rankin. and it is a regular notebook that he kept for all types of notes? mrs. oswald. this is from russia. mr. rankin. he started it in russia? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. and there are a number of notations that were made after you returned to this country, is that right? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. we offer in evidence exhibit . the chairman. it may be admitted with that number. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mrs. oswald. there is a russian term for "wedding ring" noted in there. before we were married i wrote that down for him, because he didn't know the russian expression for it. i didn't tell him. he looked it up in the dictionary himself and translated it. mr. rankin. i would like to hand this back to you and call your attention to the page of exhibit where the little white slip is. i ask you if you recognize the handwriting there, where it refers to agent hosty. mrs. oswald. lee wrote that. and this is the license number. mr. rankin. and the telephone number? the license number, the name, and the telephone number are all in your husband's---- mrs. oswald. the date when he visited him, fbi agent, telephone, name, license number, and probably the address. mr. rankin. are all in your husband's handwriting? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. do you know when they were entered in that notebook, exhibit ? mrs. oswald. after the first visit. mr. rankin. did you note the notation "november " on that page? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. you think that is about the date of the first visit, then? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. now, did you report to your husband the fact of this visit, november , with the fbi agent? mrs. oswald. i didn't report it to him at once, but as soon as he came for a weekend, i told him about it. by the way, on that day he was due to arrive. mr. rankin. that is on november ? mrs. oswald. yes. lee comes off work at : --comes from work at : . they left at o'clock, and we told them if they wanted to they could wait and lee would be here soon. but they didn't want to wait. mr. rankin. and by "they" who do you mean? do you recall the name of the other man beside agent hosty? mrs. oswald. there was only one man during the first visit. i don't remember his name. this was probably the date because there is his name and the date. mr. rankin. now, what did you tell your husband about this visit by the fbi agent and the interview? mrs. oswald. i told him that they had come, that they were interested in where he was working and where he lived, and he was, again, upset. he said that he would telephone them--i don't know whether he called or not--or that he would visit them. mr. rankin. is that all you told him at that time about the interview? mrs. oswald. no. i told him about the content of the interview, but now i don't remember. mr. rankin. do you remember anything else that happened in the interview that you could tell the commission at this time? mrs. oswald. i told you that i had told them that i didn't want them to visit us, because we wanted to live peacefully, and that this was disturbing to us. mr. rankin. was there anything else? mrs. oswald. there was more, but i don't remember now. mr. rankin. now, during this period of time---- mrs. oswald. excuse me. he said that he knew that lee had been engaged in passing out leaflets for the committee for cuba, and he asked whether lee was doing that here. mr. rankin. did you answer that question? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. what did you say? mrs. oswald. i said that lee does not engage in such activities here. this was not like an interview. it was simply a conversation. we talked about even some trifles that had no relationship to politics. mr. rankin. do you know whether or not your husband had any interviews or conversations with the fbi during this period? mrs. oswald. i know of two visits to the home of ruth paine, and i saw them each time. but i don't know of any interviews with lee. lee had told me that supposedly he had visited their office or their building. but i didn't believe him. i thought that he was a brave rabbit. mr. rankin. did your husband continue to call you daily from dallas after he got his job? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. did he tell you what he was doing? mrs. oswald. usually he would call me during the lunch break, and the second time after he was finished work, and he told me that he was reading, that he was watching television, and sometimes i told him that he should not stay in his room too much, that he should go for a walk in the park. mr. rankin. what did he say in answer to that? mrs. oswald. or i would tell him to go out and eat, and he said that he would listen to me. i don't know to what extent he fulfilled my requests. mr. rankin. did your husband come back from dallas on november th? mrs. oswald. i don't remember. mr. rankin. do you know whether he came back on saturday of that week? mrs. oswald. i remember that there was one weekend when he didn't come on a friday, but said that he would come on a saturday. and he said that that was because he wanted to visit another place--supposedly there was another job open, more interesting work. mr. rankin. did he say where this other job was that he thought was more interesting? mrs. oswald. he said that this was also based upon an ad in a newspaper, and that it was connected--that it was related to photography. and he went there in the morning and then--on a saturday--and then came to us, still during the morning. mr. rankin. he came home, then, on saturday, some time before noon of that day? mrs. oswald. yes, before noon. it seems to me that there was a holiday on that day, on the th--elections--were there elections on that day? mr. rankin. are you thinking of november th, veterans day? mrs. oswald. i remember that day exactly. we didn't go anywhere on that saturday. mr. rankin. did you and your husband buy groceries in irving some place? mrs. oswald. not always. sometimes we would go together with ruth and buy a few things. mr. rankin. do you remember the hutch's supermarket, owned by mr. hutchison? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. did you ever shop there with your husband? mrs. oswald. we never went just lee and i. mr. rankin. did the three of you--mrs. paine and you and your husband go together to shop? mrs. oswald. and her children. mr. rankin. did your husband try to cash checks at the hutch's market? mrs. oswald. he may have tried to cash checks sometimes when he received unemployment compensation. mr. rankin. do you recall that he tried to cash a check of $ at this market? mrs. oswald. he didn't have such a check. mr. rankin. as far as you know, he didn't try to cash a check of that size at this market? mrs. oswald. i don't remember this market. i do remember one time when lee wanted to cash a check, but it was $ . mr. rankin. is that the only time that you recall he tried to cash a check? mrs. oswald. yes. are you speaking of a store in dallas or in irving? mr. rankin. it is in irving. mrs. oswald. then i understand it. because in dallas i could not have been with him. the chairman. the hour of adjournment has arrived. so we will adjourn now until tomorrow morning at o'clock. (whereupon, at : p.m., the president's commission adjourned.) _wednesday, february , _ testimony of mrs. lee harvey oswald resumed the president's commission met at a.m., on february , , at maryland avenue ne., washington, d.c. present were chief justice earl warren, chairman; senator richard b. russell, senator john sherman cooper, representative hale boggs, representative gerald r. ford, allen w. dulles, members. also present were j. lee rankin, general counsel; norman redlich, assistant counsel; leon i. gopadze and william d. krimer, interpreters; john m. thorne, attorney for mrs. lee harvey oswald; and ruben efron. the chairman. the commission will be in order. we will continue with the examination. mr. rankin, you may proceed. mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, have you become familiar with the english language to some extent? mrs. oswald. i have never studied it, but simple language i do understand. mr. rankin. we had reports that you made some study at the southern methodist university. is there anything to that? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. how about mr. gregory? did you study english with him? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. did you have any formal aid or teaching of english by anyone? mrs. oswald. i had no formal instructions in it, but a russian acquaintance, mr. bouhe, wrote down some russian phrases, and i would try to translate them into english. mr. rankin. now, since you have been living with the martins, i assume you haven't had any russian friends to try to translate english for you, is that right? mrs. oswald. if you do not count mr. gopadze and the fbi interpreter, i have not been in contact with any russians. mr. rankin. and there were considerable periods during the time you have been living with the martins when neither mr. gopadze or the fbi agent or translator were present, is that right? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. so have you been able to learn a little more english while you have been with the martins than you had before, because of that experience? mrs. oswald. only a little, i think. at least it is very useful for me to live with an american family who do not speak russian. mr. rankin. that has helped you to learn some english, more than when you were living with mrs. paine, who could speak russian to you, i take it. mrs. oswald. of course. mr. rankin. do you know any french? mrs. oswald. no. other than russian, i don't know any other language. mr. rankin. now, when you were with the martins the secret service people were there, too, were they not? mrs. oswald. yes, they helped me a great deal. mr. rankin. did you object to the secret service people being there? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. did they treat you properly? mrs. oswald. excellently--very well. mr. rankin. did you object to their being around and looking out for you as they did? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. how did the martins treat you during the time you have been with them? mrs. oswald. better than i--could have been expected. mr. rankin. have you been pleased with the way they have treated you? mrs. oswald. i am very pleased and i am very grateful to them. mr. rankin. now, mr. thorne is your attorney. i understand that he told the civil liberties union people of dallas it was all right for the secret service people to be there with you and that you liked that arrangement and did not want to be interfered with. was that satisfactory to you? mrs. oswald. yes, that is correct. mr. rankin. was he speaking for you when he said that? mrs. oswald. yes, because i received a letter from mr. olds, a leader of that union. in that letter he said that he sympathizes with my situation, that he supposed that the secret service treated me very badly and stopped me from doing something. i answered him in a letter written in russian which was later translated into english that all of this was not the truth. mr. rankin. did you feel any restraint or that you were being forced to do anything there while you were at the martins that was not satisfactory to you? mrs. oswald. no, i was not forced to do anything that i did not want to. mr. rankin. anybody that tried to see you that you wanted to see during that time or from that time up to the present--i withdraw that. was anyone who you wished to see or wanted to see you that you were willing to see kept from seeing you at that time or up to the present? mrs. oswald. generally some people wanted to talk to me but they couldn't do so simply because i did not want to. mr. rankin. and was that always the case, whenever you didn't talk to someone during that period of time? mrs. oswald. yes. everything depended only on me. mr. rankin. and whenever you did want to talk to someone or see someone, you were always able to do that, were you? mrs. oswald. yes, i did meet with katya ford, my former russian friend. mr. rankin. and you were always able to meet with anyone that you wanted to, is that right? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. now, it has been claimed that mrs. ruth paine tried to see you at various times and was unable to do so. can you tell us about that? mrs. oswald. she is trying very hard to come to see me, but i have no desire to meet with her. i think that she is trying to do that for herself, rather than for me. mr. rankin. and whenever you have refused to see her when she tries to see you, that is because you didn't want to see her yourself, is that right? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. what about the newspaper and television and radio people? have some of those tried to see you while you were at the martins? mrs. oswald. yes, they have tried. mr. rankin. and have you done anything about their efforts to see you? mrs. oswald. i never wanted to be popular in such a bad sense in which i am now, and therefore i didn't want to see them. but i did have a television interview in which i said that i am relatively satisfied with my situation, that i am not too worried and i thanked people for their attention towards me. mr. rankin. will you describe to us your relationship with your mother-in-law now? mrs. oswald. after all of this happened i met with her at the police station. i was, of course, very sorry for her as lee's mother. i was always sorry for her because lee did not want to live with her. i understood her motherly concern. but in view of the fact of everything that happened later, her appearances in the radio, in the press, i do not think that she is a very sound thinking woman, and i think that part of the guilt is hers. i do not accuse her, but i think that part of the guilt in connection with what happened with lee lies with her because he did not perhaps receive the education he should have during his childhood, and he did not have any correct leadership on her part, guidance. if she were in contact with my children now, i do not want her to cripple them. mr. rankin. has she tried to see you since the assassination? mrs. oswald. yes, all the time. mr. rankin. and have you seen her since that time? mrs. oswald. accidentally we met at the cemetery on a sunday when i visited there, but i didn't want to meet with her, and i left. she didn't understand that i didn't want to meet with her and she accused the secret service personnel of preventing her from seeing me. mr. rankin. except for the time at the jail and at the cemetery, have you seen her since the assassination? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. at the time you did see your mother-in-law, did you observe any difference in her attitude towards you? mrs. oswald. yes, of course. mr. rankin. will you describe that difference that you observed? mrs. oswald. at first i said that i didn't see her any more. but after lee was in jail i lived with her for some time at that inn. mr. rankin. the six flags? mrs. oswald. the six flags. and inasmuch as i lived with her and met with her every day i could see--i was able to see the change. at least if her relationship with me was good, it was not sincere. i think that she does not like me. i don't think that she simply is able to like me. there were some violent scenes, she didn't want to listen to anyone, there were hysterics. everyone was guilty of everything and no one understood her. perhaps my opinion is wrong, but at least i do not want to live with her and to listen to scandals every day. mr. rankin. did she say anything to indicate that she blamed you in connection with the assassination? mrs. oswald. no, she did not accuse me of anything. mr. rankin. in your presence, at any time, did she accuse ruth paine of being involved in causing the assassination or being directly involved? mrs. oswald. no, she never accused ruth paine. she simply did not like her. mr. rankin. did she tell you why she didn't like ruth paine? mrs. oswald. she told me but i didn't understand it because it was in english. she expresses more by rather stormy mimicry, thinking that that would get across and i would understand. mr. rankin. you said that you didn't want to see ruth paine because you thought she wanted to see you for her own interests. will you tell us what you meant by that? mrs. oswald. i think that she wants to see me in her own selfish interests. she likes to be well known, popular, and i think that anything that i should write her, for example, would wind up in the press. the reason that i think so is that the first time that we were in jail to see lee, she was with me and with her children, and she was trying to get in front of the cameras, and to push her children and instructed her children to look this way and look that way. and the first photographs that appeared were of me with her children. mr. rankin. do you recall that in the note your husband left about the walker incident, that there was a reference to the red cross, and that you might get help there? did you ever obtain any help from the red cross before that date? mrs. oswald. no, never. mr. rankin. do you know any reason why your husband put that in the note? mrs. oswald. well, because the red cross is an organization in all countries which helps people who need help, and in case i needed help, since i have no relatives here, i would be able to obtain it from this organization. mr. rankin. do you know whether or not your husband received any help from the red cross in money payments while he was in russia? mrs. oswald. no, i don't. mr. rankin. in that note you remember that there was a reference to an embassy--it didn't say which embassy. do you know what embassy your husband was referring to? mrs. oswald. he had in mind the soviet embassy. mr. rankin. you told about the incident of de mohrenschildt coming to the house and saying something about how your husband happened to miss, and your husband looked at you and looked at him, and seemed to think that you might have told. you have described that. now, did you have any cause to believe at that time that de mohrenschildt knew anything about the walker incident? mrs. oswald. de mohrenschildt didn't know anything about it. simply he thought that this was something that lee was likely to do. he simply made a joke and the joke happened to hit the target. mr. rankin. do you conclude that from what you knew about the situation or from something that de mohrenschildt said at some time? mrs. oswald. no, i know this, myself. i know that lee could not have told him. and, otherwise, how would he have known? mr. rankin. from your knowledge, were they close enough so that your husband would have made de mohrenschildt a confidant about anything like that? mrs. oswald. no matter how close lee might be to anyone, he would not have confided such things. mr. rankin. do you recall the money that your husband borrowed from the embassy in moscow to come to this country? do you know where he got the money to repay that amount? mrs. oswald. he worked and we paid out the debt. for six or seven months we were paying off this debt. mr. rankin. some of the payments were rather large during that period. do you remember that? mrs. oswald. yes. and no one will believe it--it may appear strange. but we lived very modestly. perhaps for you it is hard to imagine how we existed. mr. rankin. did you handle the finances---- mrs. oswald. of course we were economizing. no, lee always handled the money, but i bought groceries. he gave me money and i bought groceries, or more correctly, together. mr. rankin. you would usually go to the grocery store together to buy what you needed? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. and then did he give you any funds separately from that, for you to spend alone? mrs. oswald. yes, he would give it to me, but i would not take it. mr. rankin. how much were those amounts? mrs. oswald. excuse me, i want to add something. you asked me yesterday to make a list of how much we spent during a month--i forgot. excuse me--i will do it today. for example, when we paid $ to $ rent per month, we would spend only about $ per week for groceries. as you see, i didn't die and i am not sick. mr. rankin. did you buy clothing for yourself? mrs. oswald. not everything. at first some of our russian friends would occasionally give us some clothes. but lee would also buy clothes for me. but in america this is no problem. mr. rankin. what do you mean by that? mrs. oswald. in my opinion life is not very expensive here. everyone buys according to his financial status, and no one walks around undressed. you can buy for $ and at a sale you might buy for $ , clothes for an entire season. mr. rankin. what about clothing for your child? did you handle the buying of that? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. returning to the---- mrs. oswald. excuse me. some of the things for children were given to us by friends who had children. but i didn't like them and i bought some. mr. rankin. returning to the date of november , , did you recall that that was a holiday? mrs. oswald. november ? mr. rankin. yes. mrs. oswald. i don't remember that it was a holiday. we did not celebrate it. but something, i remember, was closed. perhaps there were elections. mr. rankin. that is veterans day in this country, and it was a monday--refreshing your memory in that regard. do you recall whether or not your husband went to work that day? mrs. oswald. no. i remember that he remained at the paine's. mr. rankin. can you tell us what he did during that day? mrs. oswald. as always, he played with june and he helped me a little with preparation of lunch, and he sat around, watched television. mr. rankin. was he doing any reading at that time? mrs. oswald. he didn't read. it seems to me that on that day he was typing. i don't know. mr. rankin. and you don't know what he was typing? mrs. oswald. it seems to me it was the envelope---- mr. rankin. which you have identified? mrs. oswald. you remember you had a letter which mentioned mexico and kostin, it was that envelope. mr. rankin. is this exhibit that you are referring to? mrs. oswald. yes. you see the date is the th. you see, i can't remember a specific date, but some event i can connect with it brings it back. mr. rankin. do you remember whether your husband returned from dallas to irving at any time during that week? mrs. oswald. it seems he came on saturday or friday for the weekend. perhaps he didn't come. i am mixed up as to which weekends he did and didn't come. mr. rankin. we have a statement from a mr. hutchison of the supermarket that i referred to yesterday that you and your husband were in his supermarket on november . do you recall anything like that? mrs. oswald. if the th was a monday and the th a tuesday, lee was at work. he couldn't have been there. mr. rankin. in one of your statements that you have given the fbi and the secret service you indicated that this particular weekend your husband stayed in dallas--that is the th through the th of november. does that refresh your memory? mrs. oswald. yes--the th to the th he remained in dallas. that is, he didn't come that weekend. but on the th he was not in irving. mr. rankin. that would be the weekend before the assassination, to refresh your memory again. mrs. oswald. you see, this is why i was not surprised that he didn't come--that he came, rather, he had not come on friday and saturday, and on sunday i called him over the telephone and this is when he had a quarrel over the fictitious name. by the way, he didn't come because i told him not to come. he had wanted to come, he had telephoned. mr. rankin. what did you tell him about not coming? mrs. oswald. that he shouldn't come every week, that perhaps it is not convenient for ruth that the whole family be there, live there. mr. rankin. did he say anything about that? mrs. oswald. he said, "as you wish. if you don't want me to come, i won't." mr. rankin. were you quite angry with him about the use of the fictitious name? mrs. oswald. yes. and when he called me over the phone a second time i hung up and would not talk to him. mr. rankin. did you tell him why you were so angry? mrs. oswald. yes, of course. mr. rankin. what did you say? mrs. oswald. i said, "after all, when will all your foolishness come to an end? all of these comedies. first one thing then another. and now this fictitious name." i didn't understand why. after all, it was nothing terrible if people were to find out that he had been in russia. mr. rankin. what did he say when you said that? mrs. oswald. that i didn't understand anything. mr. rankin. do you remember an incident when he said you were a czechoslovakian rather than a russian? mrs. oswald. yes. we lived on elsbeth street, and he had told the landlady that i was from czechoslovakia. but i didn't know about it, and when the landlady asked me, i told her i was from russia. i told lee about it that evening, and he scolded me for having said that. mr. rankin. what did you say to him then? mrs. oswald. that the landlady was very nice and she was very good to me and she was even pleased with the fact that i was from russia. mr. rankin. did you object to your husband saying that you were from some country other than russia? mrs. oswald. of course. mr. rankin. what did you say to him about that? mrs. oswald. i am not ashamed of the fact that i am from russia. i can even be proud of the fact that i am russian. and there is no need for me to hide it. every person should be proud of his nationality and not be afraid or ashamed of it. mr. rankin. what did he say in response to that? mrs. oswald. nothing. mr. rankin. when he gave the fictitious name, did he use the name hidell? mrs. oswald. where? mr. rankin. when you called him that time. mrs. oswald. where? mr. rankin. on the weekend, when you called him, you said there was a fictitious name given. mrs. oswald. i don't know what name he had given. he said that he was under a fictitious name, but he didn't tell me which. mr. rankin. have you ever heard that he used the fictitious name hidell? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. when did you first learn that he used such a name? mrs. oswald. in new orleans. mr. rankin. how did you learn that? mrs. oswald. when he was interviewed by some anti-cubans, he used this name and spoke of an organization. i knew there was no such organization. and i know that hidell is merely an altered fidel, and i laughed at such foolishness. my imagination didn't work that way. mr. rankin. did you say anything to him about it at that time? mrs. oswald. i said that it wasn't a nice thing to do and some day it would be discovered anyhow. mr. rankin. now, the weekend of november th to th, which was the weekend before the assassination, do you know what your husband did or how he spent that weekend while he was in dallas? mrs. oswald. no, i don't. mr. rankin. do you know whether he took the rifle before he went into dallas, that trip, for that weekend? mrs. oswald. i don't know. i think that he took the rifle on thursday when he came the next time, but i didn't see him take it. i assume that. i cannot know it. mr. rankin. except for the time in new orleans that you described, and the time you called to dallas to ask for your husband, do you know of any other time your husband was using an assumed name? mrs. oswald. no, no more. mr. rankin. did you think he was using that assumed name in connection with this fair play for cuba activity or something else? mrs. oswald. the name hidell, which you pronounced hidell, was in connection with his activity with the non-existing organization. mr. rankin. did you and your husband live under the name hidell in new orleans? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. you were never identified as the hidells, as far as you knew, while you were there? mrs. oswald. no. no one knew that lee was hidell. mr. rankin. how did you discover it, then? mrs. oswald. i already said that when i listened to the radio, they spoke of that name, and i asked him who, and he said that it was he. mr. rankin. was that after the arrest? mrs. oswald. i don't remember when the interview took place, before the arrest or after. mr. rankin. but it was in regard to some interview for radio transmission, and he had identified himself as hidell, rather than oswald, is that right? mrs. oswald. no--he represented himself as oswald, but he said that the organization which he supposedly represents is headed by hidell. mr. rankin. he was using the name hidell, then, to have a fictitious president or head of the organization which really was he himself, is that right? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. you have told us about his practicing with the rifle, the telescopic lens, on the back porch at new orleans, and also his using the bolt action that you heard from time to time. will you describe that a little more fully to us, as best you remember? mrs. oswald. i cannot describe that in greater detail. i can only say that lee would sit there with the rifle and open and close the bolt and clean it. no, he didn't clean it at that time. yes--twice he did clean it. mr. rankin. and did he seem to be practicing with the telescopic lens, too, and sighting the gun on different objects? mrs. oswald. i don't know. the rifle was always with this. i don't know exactly how he practiced, because i was in the house, i was busy. i just knew that he sits there with his rifle. i was not interested in it. mr. rankin. was this during the light of the day or during the darkness? mrs. oswald. during darkness. mr. rankin. was it so dark that neighbors could not see him on the porch there with the gun? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. now, during the week of the assassination, did your husband call you at all by telephone? mrs. oswald. he telephoned me on monday, after i had called him on sunday, and he was not there. or, rather, he was there, but he wasn't called to the phone because he was known by another name. on monday he called several times, but after i hung up on him and didn't want to talk to him he did not call again. he then arrived on thursday. mr. rankin. did he tell you he was coming thursday? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. did you learn that he was using the assumed name of lee as his last name? mrs. oswald. i know it now, but i did not ever know it before. mr. rankin. thursday was the st. do you recall that? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. and the assassination was on the d. mrs. oswald. this is very hard to forget. mr. rankin. did your husband give any reason for coming home on thursday? mrs. oswald. he said that he was lonely because he hadn't come the preceding weekend, and he wanted to make his peace with me. mr. rankin. did you say anything to him then? mrs. oswald. he tried to talk to me but i would not answer him, and he was very upset. mr. rankin. were you upset with him? mrs. oswald. i was angry, of course. he was not angry--he was upset. i was angry. he tried very hard to please me. he spent quite a bit of time putting away diapers and played with the children on the street. mr. rankin. how did you indicate to him that you were angry with him? mrs. oswald. by not talking to him. mr. rankin. and how did he show that he was upset? mrs. oswald. he was upset over the fact that i would not answer him. he tried to start a conversation with me several times, but i would not answer. and he said that he didn't want me to be angry at him because this upsets him. on that day, he suggested that we rent an apartment in dallas. he said that he was tired of living alone and perhaps the reason for my being so angry was the fact that we were not living together. that if i want to he would rent an apartment in dallas tomorrow--that he didn't want me to remain with ruth any longer, but wanted me to live with him in dallas. he repeated this not once but several times, but i refused. and he said that once again i was preferring my friends to him, and that i didn't need him. mr. rankin. what did you say to that? mrs. oswald. i said it would be better if i remained with ruth until the holidays, he would come, and we would all meet together. that this was better because while he was living alone and i stayed with ruth, we were spending less money. and i told him to buy me a washing machine, because two children it became too difficult to wash by hand. mr. rankin. what did he say to that? mrs. oswald. he said he would buy me a washing machine. mr. rankin. what did you say to that? mrs. oswald. thank you. that it would be better if he bought something for himself--that i would manage. mr. rankin. did this seem to make him more upset, when you suggested that he wait about getting an apartment for you to live in? mrs. oswald. yes. he then stopped talking and sat down and watched television and then went to bed. i went to bed later. it was about o'clock when he went to sleep. i went to sleep about : . but it seemed to me that he was not really asleep. but i didn't talk to him. in the morning he got up, said goodbye, and left, and that i shouldn't get up--as always, i did not get up to prepare breakfast. this was quite usual. and then after i fed rachel, i took a look to see whether lee was here, but he had already gone. this was already after the police had come. ruth told me that in the evening she had worked in the garage and she knows that she had put out the light but that the light was on later--that the light was on in the morning. and she guessed that lee was in the garage. but i didn't see it. mr. rankin. did she tell you when she thought your husband had been in the garage, what time of the day? mrs. oswald. she thought that it was during the evening, because the light remained on until morning. mr. rankin. why did you stay awake until : ? were you still angry with him? mrs. oswald. no, not for that reason, but because i had to wash dishes and be otherwise busy with the household--take a bath. mr. rankin. this is a good place for a recess, mr. chairman. the chairman. all right. we can take a recess now. we will recess now for minutes. (brief recess.) the chairman. the commission will be in order. mr. rankin? mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, why did the use of this false name by your husband make you so angry? would you explain that a little bit? mrs. oswald. it would be unpleasant and incomprehensible to any wife if her husband used a fictitious name. and then, of course, i thought that if he would see that i don't like it and that i explained to him that this is not the smart thing to do, that he would stop doing it. mr. rankin. did you feel that you were becoming more impatient with all of these things that your husband was doing, the fair play for cuba and the walker incident, and then this fictitious name business? mrs. oswald. yes, of course. i was tired of it. every day i was waiting for some kind of a new surprise. i couldn't wait to find out what else would he think of. mr. rankin. did you discuss that with your husband at all? mrs. oswald. yes, of course. mr. rankin. what did you say about that? mrs. oswald. i said that no one needed anything like that, that for no reason at all he was thinking that he was not like other people, that he was more important. mr. rankin. and what did he say? mrs. oswald. he would seem to agree, but then would continue again in two or three days. mr. rankin. did you sense that he was not intending to carry out his agreement with you to not have another walker incident or anything like that? mrs. oswald. i generally didn't think that lee would repeat anything like that. generally, i knew that the rifle was very tempting for him. but i didn't believe that he would repeat it. it was hard to believe. mr. rankin. i wasn't clear about when mrs. paine thought that your husband might have been in the garage and had the light on. can you give us any help on the time of day that she had in mind? mrs. oswald. in the morning she thought about it. but she didn't attach any significance to it at that time. it was only after the police had come that this became more significant for her. mr. rankin. so she thought it was in the morning after he got up from his night's rest that he might have gone to the garage, turned on the light? mrs. oswald. in my opinion, she thought that it was at night, or during the evening that he had been in the garage and turned on the light. at least that is what she said to me. i don't know. mr. rankin. did she indicate whether she thought it was before he went to bed at o'clock? mrs. oswald. i don't know. at first it seems it wasn't nine, it was perhaps ten o'clock when lee went to bed. and first, ruth went to her room and then lee went. he was there after her. mr. rankin. so he might have been in the garage sometime between and ? was that what you thought? mrs. oswald. yes. but i think that he might have even been there in the morning and turned on the light. mr. rankin. on this evening when you were angry with him, had he come home with the young mr. frazier that day? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. when was the last time that you had noticed the rifle before that day? mrs. oswald. i said that i saw--for the first and last time i saw the rifle about a week after i had come to mrs. paine. but, as i said, the rifle was wrapped in a blanket, and i was sure when the police had come that the rifle was still in the blanket, because it was all rolled together. and, therefore, when they took the blanket and the rifle was not in it, i was very much surprised. mr. rankin. did you ever see the rifle in a paper cover? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. could you describe for the commission the place in the garage where the rifle was located? mrs. oswald. when you enter the garage from the street it was in the front part, the left. mr. rankin. by the left you mean left of the door? mrs. oswald. it is an overhead door and the rifle was to the left, on the floor. it was always in the same place. mr. rankin. was there anything else close to the rifle that you recall? mrs. oswald. next to it there were some--next to the rifle there were some suitcases and ruth had some paper barrels in the garage where the kids used to play. mr. rankin. the way the rifle was wrapped with a blanket, could you tell whether or not the rifle had been removed and the blanket just left there at any time? mrs. oswald. it always had the appearance of having something inside of it. but i only looked at it really once, and i was always sure the rifle was in it. therefore, it is very hard to determine when the rifle was taken. i only assumed that it was on thursday, because lee had arrived so unexpectedly for some reason. mr. rankin. did you believe that the reason for his coming out to see you thursday was to make up? mrs. oswald. i think there were two reasons. one was to make up with me, and the other to take the rifle. this is--this, of course, is not irreconcilable. mr. rankin. but you think he came to take the rifle because of what you learned since. is that it? mrs. oswald. yes, of course. mr. rankin. before this incident about the fictitious name, were you and your husband getting along quite well? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. did he seem to like his job at the depository? mrs. oswald. yes, because it was not dirty work. mr. rankin. had he talked about getting any other job? mrs. oswald. yes. when he went to answer some ads, he preferred to get some work connected with photography rather than this work. he liked this work relatively speaking--he liked it. but, of course, he wanted to get something better. mr. rankin. did you like the photographic work? mrs. oswald. yes. it was interesting for him. when he would see his work in the newspaper he would always point it out. mr. rankin. he had a reference in his notebook to the word "microdot". do you know what he meant by that? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. how did your husband get along with mrs. paine? mrs. oswald. he was polite to her, as an acquaintance would be, but he didn't like her. he told me that he detested her--a tall and stupid woman. she is, of course, not too smart, but most people aren't. mr. rankin. did he ever say anything to indicate he thought mrs. paine was coming between him and you? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. did mrs. paine say anything about your husband? mrs. oswald. she didn't say anything bad. i don't know what she thought. but she didn't say anything bad. perhaps she didn't like something about him, but she didn't tell me. she didn't want to hurt me by saying anything. mr. rankin. i have understood from your testimony that you did not really care to go to russia but your husband was the one that was urging that, and that is why you requested the visa, is that correct? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. and later he talked about not only you and your child going, but also his going with you, is that right? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. do you know what caused him to make that change? mrs. oswald. at one time--i don't remember whether he was working at that time or not--he was very sad and upset. he was sitting and writing something in his notebook. i asked him what he was writing and he said, "it would be better if i go with you." then he went into the kitchen and he sat there in the dark, and when i came in i saw that he was crying. i didn't know why. but, of course, when a man is crying it is not a very pleasant thing, and i didn't start to question him about why. mr. rankin. did he say to you that he didn't want you to leave him alone? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. did you at that time say anything to him about your all staying in this country and getting along together? mrs. oswald. i told him, of course, that it would be better for us to stay here. but if it was very difficult for him and if he was always worried about tomorrow, then perhaps it would be better if we went. mr. rankin. on the evening of the st, was anything said about curtain rods or his taking curtain rods to town the following day? mrs. oswald. no, i didn't have any. mr. rankin. he didn't say anything like that? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. did you discuss the weekend that was coming up? mrs. oswald. he said that he probably would not come on friday, and he didn't come--he was in jail. mr. rankin. did the quarrel that you had at that time seem to cause him to be more disturbed than usual? mrs. oswald. no, not particularly. at least he didn't talk about that quarrel when he came. usually he would remember about what happened. this time he didn't blame me for anything, didn't ask me any questions, just wanted to make up. mr. rankin. i understood that when you didn't make up he was quite disturbed and you were still angry, is that right? mrs. oswald. i wasn't really very angry. i, of course, wanted to make up with him. but i gave the appearance of being very angry. i was smiling inside, but i had a serious expression on my face. mr. rankin. and as a result of that, did he seem to be more disturbed than usual? mrs. oswald. as always, as usual. perhaps a little more. at least when he went to bed he was very upset. mr. rankin. do you think that had anything to do with the assassination the next day? mrs. oswald. perhaps he was thinking about all of that. i don't think that he was asleep. because, in the morning when the alarm clock went off he hadn't woken up as usual before the alarm went off, and i thought that he probably had fallen asleep very late. at least then i didn't think about it. now i think so. mr. rankin. when he said he would not be home that friday evening, did you ask him why? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. what did he say? mrs. oswald. he said that since he was home on thursday, that it wouldn't make any sense to come again on friday, that he would come for the weekend. mr. rankin. did that cause you to think that he had any special plans to do anything? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. did you usually keep a wallet with money in it at the paines? mrs. oswald. yes, in my room at ruth paine's there was a black wallet in a wardrobe. whenever lee would come he would put money in there, but i never counted it. mr. rankin. on the evening of november st, do you know how much was in the wallet? mrs. oswald. no. one detail that i remember was that he had asked me whether i had bought some shoes for myself, and i said no, that i hadn't had any time. he asked me whether june needed anything and told me to buy everything that i needed for myself and for june--and for the children. this was rather unusual for him, that he would mention that first. mr. rankin. did he take the money from the wallet from time to time? mrs. oswald. no, he generally kept the amount that he needed and put the rest in the wallet. i know that the money that was found there, that you think this was not lee's money. but i know for sure that this was money that he had earned. he had some money left after his trip to mexico. then we received an unemployment compensation check for $ . and then lee paid only $ or $ for his room. and i know how he eats, very little. mr. rankin. do you know what his ordinary lunch was? mrs. oswald. peanut butter sandwich, cheese sandwich, some lettuce, and he would buy himself a hamburger, something else, a coke. mr. rankin. and what about his evening meal? do you know what he ate in the evening meal? mrs. oswald. usually meat, vegetables, fruit, dessert. mr. rankin. where would he have that? mrs. oswald. he loved bananas. they were inexpensive. the place where he rented a room, he could not cook there. he said that there was some sort of a cafe across the street and that he ate there. mr. rankin. did he ever tell you what he paid for his evening meal? mrs. oswald. about a dollar, $ . . mr. rankin. what about his breakfast? do you know what he had for breakfast ordinarily? mrs. oswald. he never had breakfast. he just drank coffee and that is all. not because he was trying to economize. simply he never liked to eat. mr. rankin. mr. reporter, will you note the presence of mr. ruben efron in the hearing room. he also knows russian. on november , the day before the assassination that you were describing, was there any discussion between you and your husband about president kennedy's trip or proposed trip to texas, dallas and the fort worth area? mrs. oswald. i asked lee whether he knew where the president would speak, and told him that i would very much like to hear him and to see him. i asked him how this could be done. but he said he didn't know how to do that, and didn't enlarge any further on that subject. mr. rankin. had there ever been---- mrs. oswald. this was also somewhat unusual--his lack of desire to talk about that subject any further. mr. rankin. can you explain that to us? mrs. oswald. i think about it more now. at that time, i didn't pay any attention. mr. rankin. how did you think it was unusual? could you explain that? mrs. oswald. the fact that he didn't talk a lot about it. he merely gave me--said something as an answer, and did not have any further comments. mr. rankin. do you mean by that usually he would discuss a matter of that kind and show considerable interest? mrs. oswald. yes, of course, he would have told who would be there and where this would take place. mr. rankin. did you say anything about his showing a lack of interest at that time? mrs. oswald. i merely shrugged my shoulders. mr. rankin. now, prior to that time, had there been any discussion between you concerning the proposed trip of president kennedy to texas? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. while you were in new orleans, was there any discussion or reference to president kennedy's proposed trip to texas? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. did your husband make any comments about president kennedy on that evening, of the st? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. had your husband at any time that you can recall said anything against president kennedy? mrs. oswald. i don't remember any--ever having said that. i don't know. he never told me that. mr. rankin. did he ever say anything good about president kennedy? mrs. oswald. usually he would translate magazine articles. they were generally good. and he did not say that this contradicted his opinion. i just remembered that he talked about kennedy's father, who made his fortune by a not very--in a not very good manner. disposing of such funds, of course, it was easier for his sons to obtain an education and to obtain a government position, and it was easier to make a name for themselves. mr. rankin. what did he say about president kennedy's father making his fortune? mrs. oswald. he said that he had speculated in wine. i don't know to what extent that is true. mr. rankin. when he read these articles to you, did he comment favorably upon president kennedy? mrs. oswald. i have already said that he would translate articles which were good, but he would not comment on them. mr. rankin. can you recall---- mrs. oswald. excuse me. at least when i found out that lee had shot at the president, for me this was surprising. and i didn't believe it. i didn't believe for a long time that lee had done that. that he had wanted to kill kennedy--because perhaps walker was there again, perhaps he wanted to kill him. mr. rankin. why did you not believe this? mrs. oswald. because i had never heard anything bad about kennedy from lee. and he never had anything against him. mr. rankin. but you also say that he never said anything about him. mrs. oswald. he read articles which were favorable. mr. rankin. did he say he approved of those articles? mrs. oswald. no, he didn't say anything. perhaps he did reach his own conclusions reading these articles, but he didn't tell me about them. mr. rankin. so apparently he didn't indicate any approval or disapproval as far as he was concerned, of president kennedy? mrs. oswald. yes, that is correct. the president is the president. in my opinion, he never wanted to overthrow him. at least he never showed me that. he never indicated that he didn't want that president. mr. rankin. did you observe that his acts on november st the evening before the assassination, were anything like they were the evening before the walker incident? mrs. oswald. absolutely nothing in common. mr. rankin. did he say anything at all that would indicate he was contemplating the assassination? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. did he discuss the television programs he saw that evening with you? mrs. oswald. he was looking at tv by himself. i was busy in the kitchen. at one time when we were--when i was together with him they showed some sort of war films, from world war ii. and he watched them with interest. mr. rankin. do you recall films that he saw called "suddenly," and "we were strangers" that involved assassinations? mrs. oswald. i don't remember the names of these films. if you would remind me of the contents, perhaps i would know. mr. rankin. well, "suddenly," was about the assassination of a president, and the other was about the assassination of a cuban dictator. mrs. oswald. yes, lee saw those films. mr. rankin. did he tell you that he had seen them? mrs. oswald. i was with him when he watched them. mr. rankin. do you recall about when this was with reference to the date of the assassination? mrs. oswald. it seems that this was before rachel's birth. mr. rankin. weeks or months? can you recall that? mrs. oswald. several days. some five days. mr. rankin. did you discuss the films after you had seen them with your husband? mrs. oswald. one film about the assassination of the president in cuba, which i had seen together with him, he said that this was a fictitious situation, but that the content of the film was similar to the actual situation which existed in cuba, meaning the revolution in cuba. mr. rankin. did either of you comment on either film being like the attempt on walker's life? mrs. oswald. no. i didn't watch the other film. mr. rankin. was anything said by your husband about how easy an assassination could be committed like that? mrs. oswald. no. i only know that he watched the film with interest, but i didn't like it. mr. rankin. do you recall anything else he said about either of these films? mrs. oswald. nothing else. he didn't tell me anything else. he talked to ruth a few words. perhaps she knows more. mr. rankin. by ruth, you mean mrs. paine? mrs. oswald. they spoke in english. yes. mr. rankin. and did mrs. paine tell you what he said to her at that time? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. do you recall your husband saying at any time after he saw the film about the cuban assassination that this was the old-fashioned way of assassination? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. do you recall anything being said by your husband at any time about governor connally? mrs. oswald. well, while we were still in russia, and connally at that time was secretary of the navy, lee wrote him a letter in which he asked connally to help him obtain a good character reference because at the end of his army service he had a good characteristic--honorable discharge--but that it had been changed after it became known he had gone to russia. mr. rankin. had it been changed to undesirable discharge, as you understand it? mrs. oswald. yes. then we received a letter from connally in which he said that he had turned the matter over to the responsible authorities. that was all in russia. but here it seems he had written again to that organization with a request to review. but he said from time to time that these are bureaucrats, and he was dissatisfied. mr. rankin. do you know when he wrote again? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. was that letter written from new orleans? mrs. oswald. i don't know. i only know about the fact, but when and how, i don't know. mr. rankin. did your husband say anything to you to indicate he had a dislike for governor connally? mrs. oswald. here he didn't say anything. but while we were in russia he spoke well of him. it seems to me that connally was running for governor and lee said that when he would return to the united states he would vote for him. mr. rankin. that is all that you remember that he said about governor connally then? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. with regard to the walker incident, you said that your husband seemed disturbed for several weeks. did you notice anything of that kind with regard to the day prior to the assassination? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. on november , the day of the assassination, you said your husband got up and got his breakfast. did you get up at all before he left? mrs. oswald. no. i woke up before him, and i then went to the kitchen to see whether he had had breakfast or not--whether he had already left for work. but the coffee pot was cold and lee was not there. and when i met ruth that morning, i asked her whether lee had had coffee or not, and she said probably, perhaps he had made himself some instant coffee. but probably he hadn't had any breakfast that morning. mr. rankin. then did he say anything to you that morning at all, or did he get up and go without speaking to you? mrs. oswald. he told me to take as much money as i needed and to buy everything, and said goodbye, and that is all. after the police had already come, i noticed that lee had left his wedding ring. mr. rankin. you didn't observe that that morning when your husband had left, did you? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. do you know approximately what time your husband left that morning? mrs. oswald. i have written it there, but i have now forgotten whether it was seven or eight. but a quarter to eight--i don't know. i have now forgotten. mr. rankin. what time was he due for work? mrs. oswald. he was due at work at or : . at : he was already gone. mr. rankin. do you know whether he rode with wesley frazier that morning? mrs. oswald. i don't know. i didn't hear him leave. mr. rankin. did you ever see a paper bag or cover for the rifle at the paine's residence or garage? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. did you ever see a bag at any time? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. where did your husband have his lunch? did he take a sandwich to the depository, or did he go home to his rooming house for lunch? do you know? mrs. oswald. he usually took sandwiches to lunch. but i don't know whether he would go home or not. mr. rankin. had your husband ever left his wedding ring at home that way before? mrs. oswald. at one time while he was still at fort worth, it was inconvenient for him to work with his wedding ring on and he would remove it, but at work--he would not leave it at home. his wedding ring was rather wide, and it bothered him. i don't know now. he would take it off at work. mr. rankin. then this is the first time during your married life that he had ever left it at home where you live? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. do you know whether your husband carried any package with him when he left the house on november nd? mrs. oswald. i think that he had a package with his lunch. but a small package. mr. rankin. do you know whether he had any package like a rifle in some container? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. what did you do the rest of the morning, after you got up on november d? mrs. oswald. when i got up the television set was on, and i knew that kennedy was coming. ruth had gone to the doctor with her children and she left the television set on for me. and i watched television all morning, even without having dressed. she was running around in her pajamas and watching television with me. mr. rankin. before the assassination, did you ever see your husband examining the route of the parade as it was published in the paper? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. did you ever see him looking at a map of dallas like he did in connection with the walker shooting? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. how did you learn of the shooting of president kennedy? mrs. oswald. i was watching television, and ruth by that time was already with me, and she said someone had shot at the president. mr. rankin. what did you say? mrs. oswald. it was hard for me to say anything. we both turned pale. i went to my room and cried. mr. rankin. did you think immediately that your husband might have been involved? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. did mrs. paine say anything about the possibility of your husband being involved? mrs. oswald. no, but she only said that "by the way, they fired from the building in which lee is working." my heart dropped. i then went to the garage to see whether the rifle was there, and i saw that the blanket was still there, and i said, "thank god." i thought, "can there really be such a stupid man in the world that could do something like that?" but i was already rather upset at that time--i don't know why. perhaps my intuition. i didn't know what i was doing. mr. rankin. did you look in the blanket to see if the rifle was there? mrs. oswald. i didn't unroll the blanket. it was in its usual position, and it appeared to have something inside. mr. rankin. did you at any time open the blanket to see if the rifle was there? mrs. oswald. no, only once. mr. rankin. you have told us about that. mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. and what about mrs. paine? did she look in the blanket to see if the rifle was there? mrs. oswald. she didn't know about the rifle. perhaps she did know. but she never told me about it. i don't know. mr. rankin. when did you learn that the rifle was not in the blanket? mrs. oswald. when the police arrived and asked whether my husband had a rifle, and i said "yes." mr. rankin. then what happened? mrs. oswald. they began to search the apartment. when they came to the garage and took the blanket, i thought, "well, now, they will find it." they opened the blanket but there was no rifle there. then, of course, i already knew that it was lee. because, before that, while i thought that the rifle was at home, i did not think that lee had done that. i thought the police had simply come because he was always under suspicion. mr. rankin. what do you mean by that--he was always under suspicion? mrs. oswald. well, the fbi would visit us. mr. rankin. did they indicate what they suspected him of? mrs. oswald. they didn't tell me anything. mr. rankin. what did you say to the police when they came? mrs. oswald. i don't remember now. i was so upset that i don't remember what i said. mr. rankin. did you tell them about your husband leaving his wedding ring that morning? mrs. oswald. no, because i didn't know it. mr. rankin. did you tell them that you had looked for the gun you thought was in the blanket? mrs. oswald. no, it seems to me i didn't say that. they didn't ask me. mr. rankin. did you watch the police open the blanket to see if the rifle was there? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. did mrs. paine also watch them? mrs. oswald. it seems to me, as far as i remember. mr. rankin. when the police came, did mrs. paine act as an interpreter for you? mrs. oswald. yes. she told me about what they had said. but i was not being questioned so that she would interpret. she told me herself. she very much loved to talk and she welcomed the occasion. mr. rankin. you mean by that that she answered questions of the police and then told you what she had said? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. and what did she tell you that she had said to the police? mrs. oswald. she talked to them in the usual manner, in english, when they were addressing her. but when they addressed me, she was interpreting. mr. rankin. do you recall the exact time of the day that you discovered the wedding ring there at the house? mrs. oswald. about o'clock, i think. i don't remember. then everything got mixed up, all time. mr. rankin. did the police spend considerable time there? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. do you remember the names of any of the officers? mrs. oswald. no, i don't. mr. rankin. how did they treat you? mrs. oswald. rather gruff, not very polite. they kept on following me. i wanted to change clothes because i was dressed in a manner fitting to the house. and they would not even let me go into the dressing room to change. mr. rankin. what did you say about that? mrs. oswald. well, what could i tell them? i asked them, but they didn't want to. they were rather rough. they kept on saying, hurry up. mr. rankin. did they want you to go with them? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. did you leave the house with them right soon after they came? mrs. oswald. about an hour, i think. mr. rankin. and what were they doing during that hour? mrs. oswald. they searched the entire house. mr. rankin. did they take anything with them? mrs. oswald. yes--everything, even some tapes--ruth's tapes from a tape recorder, her things. i don't know what. mr. rankin. did they take many of your belongings? mrs. oswald. i didn't watch at that time. after all, it is not my business. if they need it, let them take it. mr. rankin. did they give you an inventory of what they took? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. you have never received an inventory? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. do you now know what they took? mrs. oswald. no. i know that i am missing my documents, that i am missing lee's documents, lee's wedding ring. mr. rankin. what about clothing? mrs. oswald. robert had some of lee's clothing. i don't know what was left of lee's things, but i hope they will return it. no one needs it. mr. rankin. what documents do you refer to that you are missing? mrs. oswald. my foreign passport, my immigration card, my birth certificate, my wedding certificate--marriage certificate, june's and rachel's birth certificates. then various letters, my letters from friends. perhaps something that has some bearing--photographs, whatever has some reference--whatever refers to the business at hand, let it remain. then my diploma. i don't remember everything now. mr. rankin. what documents of your husband's do you recall that they took? mrs. oswald. i didn't see what they took. at least at the present time i have none of lee's documents. mr. rankin. the documents of his that you refer to that you don't have are similar to your own that you described? mrs. oswald. yes. he also had a passport, several work books, labor cards. i don't know what men here--what sort of documents men here carry. mr. rankin. mr. chairman, it is now : . the chairman. i think we will recess now for lunch. (whereupon, at : p.m., the commission recessed.) afternoon session testimony of mrs. lee harvey oswald resumed the president's commission reconvened at p.m. the chairman. the commission will be in order. mr. rankin, you may continue. mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, we will hand you exhibit , which purports to be an envelope from the soviet embassy at washington, dated november , , and ask you if you recall seeing the original or a copy of that. mrs. oswald. i had not seen this envelope before, but lee had told me that a letter had been received in my name from the soviet embassy with congratulations on the october revolution--on the date of the october revolution. mr. rankin. and you think that that came in that exhibit , do you? mrs. oswald. yes, because the date coincides, and i didn't get any other letters. mr. rankin. we offer in evidence exhibit . the chairman. it may be in the record and given the next number. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. rankin. in some newspaper accounts your mother-in-law has intimated that your husband might have been an agent for some government, and that she might have--did have information in that regard. do you know anything about that? mrs. oswald. the first time that i hear anything about this. mr. rankin. did you ever know---- mrs. oswald. that is all untrue, of course. mr. rankin. did you ever know that you husband was at any time an agent of the soviet union? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. did you ever know that your husband was an agent of the cuban government at any time? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. did you ever know that your husband was an agent of any agency of the united states government? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. did you ever know that your husband was an agent of any government? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. do you have any idea of the motive which induced your husband to kill the president? mrs. oswald. from everything that i know about my husband, and of the events that transpired, i can conclude that he wanted in any way, whether good or bad, to do something that would make him outstanding, that he would be known in history. mr. rankin. and is it then your belief that he assassinated the president, for this purpose? mrs. oswald. that is my opinion. i don't know how true that is. mr. rankin. and what about his shooting at general walker? do you think he had the same motive or purpose in doing that? mrs. oswald. i think that, yes. mr. rankin. after the assassination, were you coerced or abused in any way by the police or anyone else in connection with the inquiry about the assassination? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. did you see or speak to your husband on november d, following his arrest? mrs. oswald. on the d i did not see him. on the d i met with him. mr. rankin. and when you met with him on the d, was it at your request or his? mrs. oswald. i don't know whether he requested it, but i know that i wanted to see him. mr. rankin. did you request the right to see your husband on the d, after his arrest? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. and what answer were you given at that time? mrs. oswald. i was not permitted to. mr. rankin. who gave you that answer? mrs. oswald. i don't know. the police. mr. rankin. you don't know what officer of the police? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. where did you spend the evening on the night of the assassination? mrs. oswald. on the day of the assassination, on the d, after returning from questioning by the police, i spent the night with mrs. paine, together with lee's mother. mr. rankin. did you receive any threats from anyone at this time? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. did any law enforcement agency offer you protection at that time? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. when you saw your husband on november d, the day after the assassination, did you have a conversation with him? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. and where did this occur? mrs. oswald. in the police department. mr. rankin. were just the two of you together at that time? mrs. oswald. no, the mother was there together with me. mr. rankin. at that time what did you say to him and what did he say to you? mrs. oswald. you probably know better than i do what i told him. mr. rankin. well, i need your best recollection, if you can give it to us, mrs. oswald. mrs. oswald. of course he tried to console me that i should not worry, that everything would turn out well. he asked about how the children were. he spoke of some friends who supposedly would help him. i don't know who he had in mind. that he had written to someone in new york before that. i was so upset that of course i didn't understand anything of that. it was simply talk. mr. rankin. did you say anything to him then? mrs. oswald. i told him that the police had been there and that a search had been conducted, that they had asked me whether we had a rifle, and i had answered yes. and he said that if there would be a trial, and that if i am questioned it would be my right to answer or to refuse to answer. mr. gopadze. she asked me if she talked about that thing, the first evening when i talked to her with the fbi agents, she asked me if she didn't have to tell me if she didn't want to. and warning her of her constitutional rights, telling her she didn't have to tell me anything she didn't want to--at that time, she told me she knew about that, that she didn't have to tell me if she didn't want to. mrs. oswald. and he then asked me, "who told you you had that right?" and then i understood that he knew about it. mr. gopadze. at that time i did not know. mrs. oswald. i thought you had been told about it because the conversation had certainly been written down. i am sure that while i was talking to lee--after all, this was not some sort of a trial of a theft, but a rather important matter, and i am sure that everything was recorded. mr. rankin. let me see if i can clarify what you were saying. as i understand it, mr. gopadze had talked to you with the fbi agents after the assassination, and they had cautioned you that you didn't have to talk, in accordance with your constitutional rights, is that correct? mrs. oswald. yes, that is right. mr. rankin. and you told mr. gopadze you already knew that? mrs. oswald. i don't remember what i told him. mr. gopadze. mrs. oswald, on her own accord, asked me, or told me that she didn't have to tell us anything she didn't want to. i said, "that is right." mrs. oswald. i disliked him immediately, because he introduced himself as being from the fbi. i was at that time very angry at the fbi because i thought perhaps lee is not guilty, and they have merely tricked him. mr. gopadze. mr. rankin, may i, for the benefit of the commission--i would like to mention that i didn't represent myself as being an fbi agent. i just said that i was a government agent, with the fbi. and i introduced both agents to mrs. oswald. mr. rankin. and, mrs. oswald, you thought he was connected with the fbi in some way, did you? mrs. oswald. he had come with them, and i decided he must have been. mr. rankin. and your ill feeling towards the fbi was---- mrs. oswald. he did not tell me that he was with the fbi, but he was with them. mr. rankin. your ill feeling towards the fbi was due to the fact that you thought they were trying to obtain evidence to show your husband was guilty in regard to the assassination? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. but you have said since the assassination that you didn't want to believe it, but you had to believe that your husband had killed president kennedy, is that right? mrs. oswald. yes. there were some facts, but not too many, and i didn't know too much about it at that time yet. after all, there are in life some accidental concurrences of circumstances. and it is very difficult to believe in that. mr. rankin. but from what you have learned since that time, you arrived at this conclusion, did you, that your husband had killed the president? mrs. oswald. yes. unfortunately, yes. mr. rankin. and you related those facts that you learned to what you already knew about your life with him and what you knew he had done and appeared to be doing in order to come to that conclusion? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. when you saw your husband on november d, at the police station, did you ask him if he had killed president kennedy? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. did you ask him at that time if he had killed officer tippit? mrs. oswald. no. i said, "i don't believe that you did that, and everything will turn out well." after all, i couldn't accuse him--after all, he was my husband. mr. rankin. and what did he say to that? mrs. oswald. he said that i should not worry, that everything would turn out well. but i could see by his eyes that he was guilty. rather, he tried to appear to be brave. however, by his eyes i could tell that he was afraid. this was just a feeling. it is hard to describe. mr. rankin. would you help us a little bit by telling us what you saw in his eyes that caused you to think that? mrs. oswald. he said goodbye to me with his eyes. i knew that. he said that everything would turn out well, but he did not believe it himself. mr. rankin. how could you tell that? mrs. oswald. i saw it in his eyes. mr. rankin. did your husband ever at any time say to you that he was responsible or had anything to do with the killing of president kennedy? mrs. oswald. after kennedy--i only saw him once, and he didn't tell me anything, and i didn't see him again. mr. rankin. and did he at any time tell you that he had anything to do with the shooting of officer tippit? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. did you ever ask your husband why he ran away or tried to escape after the assassination? mrs. oswald. i didn't ask him about that. mr. rankin. on either november d, or saturday, november d, did anyone contact you and advise you that your husband was going to be shot? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. where did you spend the evening of november d? mrs. oswald. after seeing lee, we went with some reporters of life magazine who had rented a room, but it turned out to be--in a hotel--but it turned out to be inconvenient because there were many people there and we went to another place. we were in a hotel in dallas, but i don't know the name. mr. rankin. who was with you at that time? mrs. oswald. lee's mother. mr. rankin. anyone else? mrs. oswald. no--june and rachel. mr. rankin. was robert with you at all? mrs. oswald. i saw robert in the police--at the police station, but he did not stay with us at the hotel. mr. rankin. now, the evening of november d, were you at ruth paine's house? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. at that time did the reporters come there and the life reporters, and ask you and your mother-in-law and mrs. paine about what had happened? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. we have a report that there was quite a scene between mrs. paine and your mother-in-law at that time. was there such an event? mrs. oswald. i did not understand english too well, and i did not know what they were quarreling about. i know that the reporters wanted to talk to me, but his mother made a scene and went into hysterics, and said i should not talk and that she would not talk. mr. rankin. did she say why she would not talk? mrs. oswald. perhaps she said it in english. i didn't understand. she talked to the reporters. mr. rankin. did she say anything about being paid if she was going to tell any story? mrs. oswald. she has a mania--only money, money, money. mr. rankin. did you understand that she was quarreling with ruth paine about something concerning the interview? mrs. oswald. yes. it appeared to be a quarrel, but what they quarreled about, i don't know. mr. rankin. and after the quarrel, did you leave there? mrs. oswald. i went to my room. but then i showed lee's mother the photograph, where he is photographed with a rifle, and told her he had shot at walker and it appeared he might have been shooting at the president. she said that i should hide that photograph and not show it to anyone. on the next day i destroyed one photograph which i had. i think i had two small ones. when we were in the hotel i burned it. mr. rankin. did you say anything to her about the destruction of the photographs when she suggested that? mrs. oswald. she saw it, while i was destroying them. mr. rankin. after the assassination, did the police and fbi and the secret service ask you many questions? mrs. oswald. in the police station there was a routine regular questioning, as always happens. and then after i was with the agents of the secret service and the fbi, they asked me many questions, of course--many questions. sometimes the fbi agents asked me questions which had no bearing or relationship, and if i didn't want to answer they told me that if i wanted to live in this country, i would have to help in this matter, even though they were often irrelevant. that is the fbi. mr. rankin. do you know who said that to you? mrs. oswald. mr. heitman and bogoslav, who was an interpreter for the fbi. mr. rankin. you understand that you do not have to tell this commission in order to stay in this country, don't you, now? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. you are not under any compulsion to tell the commission here in order to be able to stay in the country. mrs. oswald. i understand that. mr. rankin. and you have come here because you want to tell us what you could about this matter, is that right? mrs. oswald. this is my voluntary wish, and no one forced me to do this. mr. rankin. did these various people from the police and the secret service and the fbi treat you courteously when they asked you about the matters that they did, concerning the assassination and things leading up to it? mrs. oswald. i have a very good opinion about the secret service, and the people in the police department treated me very well. but the fbi agents were somehow polite and gruff. sometimes they would mask a gruff question in a polite form. mr. rankin. did you see anyone from the immigration service during this period of time? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. do you know who that was? mrs. oswald. i don't remember the name. i think he is the chairman of that office. at least he was a representative of that office. mr. rankin. by "that office" you mean the one at dallas? mrs. oswald. i was told that he had especially come from new york, it seems to me. mr. rankin. what did he say to you? mrs. oswald. that if i was not guilty of anything, if i had not committed any crime against this government, then i had every right to live in this country. this was a type of introduction before the questioning by the fbi. he even said that it would be better for me if i were to help them. mr. rankin. did he explain to you what he meant by being better for you? mrs. oswald. in the sense that i would have more rights in this country. i understood it that way. mr. rankin. did you understand that you were being threatened with deportation if you didn't answer these questions? mrs. oswald. no, i did not understand it that way. you see, it was presented in such a delicate form, but there was a clear implication that it would be better if i were to help. mr. rankin. did you---- mrs. oswald. this was only felt. it wasn't said in actual words. mr. rankin. did you feel that it was a threat? mrs. oswald. this was not quite a threat--it was not a threat. but it was their great desire that i be in contact, in touch with the fbi. i sensed that. mr. rankin. but you did not consider it to be a threat to you? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. did anyone indicate that it would affect your ability to work in this country if you cooperated? mrs. oswald. excuse me. no. mr. rankin. is there anything else about your treatment by law enforcement officials during this period that you would like to tell the commission about? mrs. oswald. i think that the fbi agents knew that i was afraid that after everything that had happened i could not remain to live in this country, and they somewhat exploited that for their own purposes, in a very polite form, so that you could not say anything after that. they cannot be accused of anything. they approached it in a very clever, contrived way. mr. rankin. was there anyone else of the law enforcement officials that you felt treated you in that manner? mrs. oswald. no. as for the rest, i was quite content. everyone was very attentive towards me. mr. rankin. where were you on the morning of november th when your husband was killed? mrs. oswald. the night from the d to the th i spent at a hotel in dallas, together with the mother. she wanted to make sure that the life reporters who had taken this room would pay for it, as they had promised. but they disappeared. then she telephoned robert, it seems to me, and gregory--no, mr. gregory. and i know that he came with robert, and robert paid for the room. and, after that, after we left the hotel, we met with the secret service agents. i wanted to see lee, and we were supposed to go to the police station to see him. mr. rankin. that was on november th, on sunday? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. and then what happened? mrs. oswald. i don't remember whether we went to ruth to take my things or perhaps--in general, i remember that en route, in the car, mike howard or charley kunkel said that lee had been shot today. at first he said that it wasn't serious--perhaps just not to frighten me. i was told that he had been taken to a hospital, and then i was told that he had been seriously wounded. then they had to telephone somewhere. they stopped at the house of the chief of police, curry. from there, i telephone ruth to tell her that i wanted to take several things which i needed with me and asked her to prepare them. and that there was a wallet with money and lee's ring. soon after that--robert was no longer with me, but gregory was there, and the mother, and the secret service agents. they said that lee had died. after that, we went to the motel inn, the six flags inn, where i stayed for several days--perhaps two weeks--i don't know. mr. rankin. do you recall what time of the day you heard that your husband had been shot? mrs. oswald. two o'clock in the afternoon, i think. mr. rankin. and where were you at that time? mrs. oswald. i was in a car. mr. rankin. just riding around, or at some particular place? mrs. oswald. no, not at two o'clock--earlier. lee was shot at o'clock. it was probably close to o'clock. he died at one. mr. rankin. and where was the car that you were in at that time? mrs. oswald. we were on the way to chief curry, en route from the hotel. mr. rankin. what did you do after you went to the motel? mrs. oswald. i left with robert and we prepared for the funeral. then ruth paine sent my things to me via the agent. mr. gopadze. she would like a recess for a little while. she has a headache. the chairman. yes, we will recess. (brief recess) the chairman. the commission will be in order. do you feel refreshed now, mrs. oswald, ready to proceed? mrs. oswald. yes, thank you. the chairman. very well. mr. rankin? mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, i asked you if you asked your husband about his efforts to escape, why he did that. i will ask you now whether in light of what you said about his seeking notoriety in connection with the assassination, in your opinion how you explain his efforts to escape, which would presumably not give him that notoriety. mrs. oswald. when he did that, he probably did it with the intention of becoming notorious. but after that, it is probably a normal reaction of a man to try and escape. mr. rankin. you will recall that in the interviews, after the assassination, you first said that you thought your husband didn't do it, do you? mrs. oswald. i don't remember it, but quite possibly i did say that. you must understand that now i only speak the truth. mr. rankin. recently you said that you thought your husband did kill president kennedy. mrs. oswald. i now have enough facts to say that. mr. rankin. can you give us or the commission an idea generally about when you came to this latter conclusion, that he did kill president kennedy? mrs. oswald. perhaps a week after it all happened, perhaps a little more. the more facts came out, the more convinced i was. mr. rankin. you have stated in some of your interviews that your husband would get on his knees and cry and say that he was lost. do you recall when this happened? mrs. oswald. that was in new orleans. mr. rankin. was it more than one occasion? mrs. oswald. when he said that, that was only once. mr. rankin. and do you know what caused him to say that? mrs. oswald. i don't know. mr. rankin. you don't know whether there was some occasion or some happening that caused it? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. did your mother-in-law ever indicate that she had some particular evidence, either oral or documentary, that would decide this case? mrs. oswald. yes, she always said that she has a pile of papers and many acquaintances. mr. rankin. did you ever ask her to tell you what it was that would be so decisive about the case? mrs. oswald. i would have liked to ask her, but i didn't speak any english. and then i didn't believe her. what documents could she have when she had not seen lee for one year, and she didn't even know we lived in new orleans? i think that is just simply idle talk, that she didn't have anything. perhaps she does have something. but i think that it is only she who considers that she has something that might reveal, uncover this. mr. rankin. has there been any time that you wanted to see your mother-in-law that you have been prevented from doing so? mrs. oswald. never. i don't want to see her, i didn't want to. mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, i am going to ask you about differences between you and your mother-in-law, not for the purpose of embarrassing you in any way, but since we are going to ask her to testify it might be helpful to the commission to know that background. i hope you will bear with us. have you had some differences with your mother-in-law? mrs. oswald. i am sorry that you will devote your time to questioning her, because you will only be tired and very sick after talking to her. i am very much ashamed to have this kind of relationship to my mother-in-law. i would like to be closer to her and to be on better terms with her. but when you get to know her, you will understand why. i don't think that she can help you. but if it is a formality, then, of course. mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, can you describe for the commission your differences so the commission will be able to evaluate those differences? mrs. oswald. well, she asserts, for example, that i don't know anything, that i am being forced to say that lee is guilty in everything, that she knows more. this is what our differences are. mr. rankin. and have you responded to her when she said those things? mrs. oswald. she said this by means of newspapers and television. i haven't seen her. i would like to tell her that, but it is impossible to tell her that, because she would scratch my eyes out. mr. rankin. are there any other differences between you and your mother-in-law that you have not described? mrs. oswald. no, there are no more. mr. rankin. do you know of any time that your husband had money in excess of what he obtained from the jobs he was working on? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. he had his unemployment insurance when he was out of work. is that right? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. and then he had the earnings from his jobs, is that right? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. now, beyond those amounts, do you know of any sum of money that he had from any source? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. do you know whether he was ever acting as an undercover agent for the fbi. mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. do you believe that he was at any time? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. do you know whether or not he was acting as an agent for the cia at any time? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. do you believe that he was? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. did you know jack ruby, the man that killed your husband? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. before the murder of your husband by jack ruby, had you ever known of him? mrs. oswald. no, never. mr. rankin. do you know whether your husband knew jack ruby before the killing? mrs. oswald. he was not acquainted with him. lee did not frequent nightclubs, as the papers said. mr. rankin. how do you know that? mrs. oswald. he was always with me. he doesn't like other women. he didn't drink. why should he then go? mr. rankin. do you know any reason why jack ruby killed your husband? mrs. oswald. about that, jack ruby should be questioned. mr. rankin. i have to ask you, mrs. oswald. mrs. oswald. he didn't tell me. mr. rankin. and do you know any reason why he should? mrs. oswald. i don't know, but it seems to me that he was a sick person at that time, perhaps. at least when i see his picture in the paper now, it is an abnormal face. mr. rankin. has your husband ever mentioned the name jack ruby to you? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. he never at any time said anything about jack ruby that you can recall? mrs. oswald. no, never. i heard that name for the first time after he killed lee. i would like to consult with mr. thorne and mr. gopadze. the chairman. you may. (brief recess) the chairman. all right. mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, would you like to add something to your testimony? mrs. oswald. yes. this is in connection with why i left the room. i will tell you why i left the room. i consulted with my attorney, whether i should bring this up. this is not a secret. the thing is that i have written a letter, even though i have not mailed it yet, to the attorney--to the prosecuting attorney who will prosecute jack ruby. i wrote in that letter that even--that if jack ruby killed my husband, and i felt that i have a right as the widow of the man he killed to say that, that if he killed him he should be punished for it. but that in accordance with the laws here, the capital punishment, the death penalty is imposed for such a crime, and that i do not want him to be subjected to that kind of a penalty. i do not want another human life to be taken. and i don't want it to be believed because of this letter that i had been acquainted with ruby, and that i wanted to protect him. it is simply that it is pity to--i feel sorry for another human life. because this will not return--bring back to life kennedy or the others who were killed. but they have their laws, and, of course, i do not have the right to change them. that is only my opinion, and perhaps they will pay some attention to it. that is all. mr. rankin. had you ever been in the carousel nightclub? mrs. oswald. i have never been in nightclubs. mr. rankin. did you know where it was located before your husband was killed by jack ruby? mrs. oswald. no, i don't know it now either. mr. rankin. can you tell us whether your husband was right handed or left handed? mrs. oswald. no, he was right handed. his brother writes with his left hand and so does--his brother and mother both write with their left hand. and since i mentioned jack ruby, the mother and robert want ruby to be subjected to a death penalty. and in that we differ. mr. rankin. have they told you the reason why they wanted the death penalty imposed? mrs. oswald. in their view, a killing has to be repaid by a killing. in my opinion, it is not so. mr. rankin. is there anything more about the assassination of president kennedy that you know that you have not told the commission? mrs. oswald. no, i don't know anything. mr. rankin. is there anything that your husband ever told you about proposing to assassinate president kennedy that you haven't told the commission? mrs. oswald. no, i don't know that. mr. rankin. now, mrs. oswald, we will turn to some period in russia, and ask you about that for a little while. can you tell us the time and place of your birth? mrs. oswald. i was born on july , , in severo dvinsk, in the arkhangelskaya region. mr. rankin. who were your parents? mrs. oswald. names? mr. rankin. yes, please. mrs. oswald. my mother was clogia vasilyevna proosakova. she was a laboratory assistant. mr. rankin. and your father? mrs. oswald. and i had a stepfather. i had no father. i never knew him. mr. rankin. who did you live with as a child? mrs. oswald. with my stepfather, with my mother, and sometimes with my grandmother--grandmother on my mother's side. mr. rankin. did you live with your grandparents before you went back to live with your mother and your stepfather? mrs. oswald. yes, i lived with my grandmother until i was approximately five years old. mr. rankin. and then you moved to live with your mother and your stepfather, did you? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. and was that in leningrad? mrs. oswald. after the war, we lived in moldavia for some time. after the war it was easier to live there, better to live there. and then we returned to leningrad where we lived with my stepfather's mother--also with my half brother and half sister. mr. rankin. what was your stepfather's business? mrs. oswald. he was an electrician in a power station in leningrad. mr. rankin. did you have brothers and sisters? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. how many? mrs. oswald. one brother, one sister--from my mother's second marriage. mr. rankin. how old were they? mrs. oswald. how old are they, or were they? mr. rankin. are they--i mean in comparison with your age. were they three or four years older than you? mrs. oswald. my brother is years younger than i am. my sister is probably years younger than i am. about four years between brother and sister. mr. rankin. do you know whether your stepfather was a member of the communist party? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. that is, you don't know, or you know he was not? mrs. oswald. no, i know that he was not a member. mr. rankin. did you live for a period with your mother alone? mrs. oswald. no. after my mother's death, i continued to live with my stepfather, and later went to live in minsk, with my uncle--my mother's brother. mr. rankin. what was your stepfather's name? mrs. oswald. alexandr ivanovich medvedev. mr. rankin. when did you leave the home of your stepfather? mrs. oswald. in . no-- . mr. rankin. what was your grandfather's occupation? mrs. oswald. on my mother's side? mr. rankin. yes. mrs. oswald. he was a ship's captain. mr. rankin. was he a member of the communist party? mrs. oswald. no. he died shortly after the war. mr. rankin. which war? mrs. oswald. second. mr. rankin. did you get along well with your grandparents? mrs. oswald. yes, i was their favorite. mr. rankin. did you get along with your stepfather? mrs. oswald. no. i was not a good child. i was too fresh with him. mr. rankin. did your mother and your stepfather move to zguritsa? mrs. oswald. that is in moldavia, where we lived. that is after the war. it was a very good life there. they still had some kulaks, a lot of food, and we lived very well. after the war, people lived there pretty well, but they were dekulakized subsequently. by the way, i don't understand all of that, because these people worked with their own hands all their lives. i was very sorry when i heard that everything had been taken away from them and they had been sent somewhere to siberia where after living in the south it would be very cold. mr. rankin. did your mother have any occupation? mrs. oswald. yes, laboratory assistant--i said that. mr. rankin. was she a member of the communist party? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. do you recall when your mother died? mrs. oswald. in . mr. rankin. did you receive a pension after your mother's death? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. how much was it? mrs. oswald. all children received pensions. we received for it rubles, the old rubles. mr. rankin. was that called a children's pension? mrs. oswald. yes. it was paid up to majority, up to the age of . mr. rankin. and was it paid to you directly or to your stepfather? mrs. oswald. it was paid to me directly. mr. rankin. did your brother and sister get a similar pension? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. did your stepfather adopt you? mrs. oswald. no, i was not adopted. mr. rankin. what was your relationship with your half brother? did you get along with him? mrs. oswald. i loved them very much, and they loved me. mr. rankin. and your half sister, too? mrs. oswald. yes. they are very good children. not like me. mr. rankin. will you tell us what schools you went to? mrs. oswald. at first i went to school in moldavia, and later in leningrad, in a girl's school and then after finishing school i studied in a pharmaceutical institute--pharmaceutical school, rather than institute. mr. rankin. where was the pharmaceutical school? mrs. oswald. in leningrad. mr. rankin. did you go through high school before you went to the pharmaceutical school? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. do you recall the names of any of your teachers? mrs. oswald. dmitry rossovsky. i remember the director of the school, nadelman matvey akimovich. it is hard to remember now. i have already forgotten. i have had good teachers. they treated me very well, they helped me after my mother died. knowing my difficult nature, they approached me very pedagogically. but now i would have changed that nature. mr. rankin. were you a good student? mrs. oswald. i was capable but lazy. i never spent much time studying. you know, everything came to me very easily. sometimes my ability saved me. my language, you know--i talk a lot, and get a good grade. mr. rankin. did you work part-time while you were going to school? mrs. oswald. yes. the money which i received on the pension was not enough, and therefore i had to work as well as study. mr. rankin. and what did you do in working? mrs. oswald. at first i worked in a school cafeteria, school lunchroom. this was good for me, because i also got enough to eat that way. and then i felt the work was not for me, that it was too restricted, and then i worked in a pharmacy. then when i graduated i worked in a pharmacy as a full-fledged pharmacist--as a pharmacist's assistant. mr. rankin. before you graduated, how much were you paid for your work? mrs. oswald. i think i received per month--this is new rubles--at that time it was still old rubles. but i could eat there three times a day. and then this was a lunchroom that was part of a large restaurant where everyone liked me and i always was treated to all sorts of tidbits and candy. i remember they had some busboys there who always saved something for me. mr. rankin. did you save any money while you were working before you graduated? mrs. oswald. i don't know how to save money. i like to make presents. mr. rankin. where did you work after you graduated? mrs. oswald. i was assigned to work in leningrad, but my stepfather didn't want me to remain with him because he thought perhaps he would marry again, and, therefore, i left. but he hasn't married up until now. mr. rankin. i hand you exhibit , and ask you if you know what that is. mrs. oswald. this is my diploma. my goodness, what did they do with my diploma? i can't work with it. the government seal is missing. who will give me a new diploma? mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, i want to explain to you--the commission hasn't done anything to your diploma. we are informed that---- mrs. oswald. they should have treated it a little more carefully, though. mr. rankin. the process was trying to determine fingerprints. it wasn't our action. mrs. oswald. there must be many fingerprints on there. all of my teachers and everybody that ever looked at it. i am sorry--it is a pity for my diploma. mr. rankin. we offer in evidence exhibit . the chairman. it may be marked. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. rankin. do you know why on exhibit there is no date of admission to the school? mrs. oswald. there is no entrance date on it, but it does show the date of issue and the date of graduation. mr. rankin. isn't there a place for admission, though? mrs. oswald. yes, there is a place for it. mr. rankin. do you know when you were admitted to the school? mrs. oswald. in . mr. krimer. i might mention the place here is for the year only, not for a full date. mr. dulles. , did you say? mrs. oswald. yes, . mr. rankin. in this job that you obtained after you left the school, what were your duties? mrs. oswald. when i worked in the pharmacy? mr. rankin. yes. mrs. oswald. i worked in a hospital pharmacy. i prepared prescriptions. after the rounds every day, the doctors prescribed prescriptions, and the nurses of each department of the hospital enter that in a book, and turn it over to the pharmacy for preparation, where we again transcribed it from the nurses' book as a prescription and prepared it. mr. rankin. were you assigned to a particular job or did you go out and get the job? how was that arranged? mrs. oswald. generally upon graduation there is an assignment. i was sent to work to a drug warehouse in leningrad. but this work was not very interesting, because everything was in packages. it is more of a warehousing job. and, therefore, if i had wanted to change i could have changed to any pharmacy. this assignment is only performed in order to guarantee that the graduate has a job. but the graduate can go to work somewhere else. mr. rankin. how long did you stay in this first job? mrs. oswald. i was there for three days, which is a probationary period, intended to have the employee familiarize himself with his duties. i didn't like that work, and i went to minsk, and worked there. i worked there in my own specialty with pleasure. but the reference which i received after i was going to the united states was not very good, because they were very dissatisfied with the fact that i was going to the united states. they could not understand how could it be that a good worker could leave. mr. rankin. did you select minsk as a place to go and work yourself? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. you were not assigned there, then? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. could you have selected other places that you wished to go to and work? mrs. oswald. yes, but the registration is very difficult. in russia you cannot settle in a large city if you are not registered. mr. rankin. what do you mean by that? mrs. oswald. if i lived in leningrad, i had the right to work there. but if someone would come there from a village he would not have the right to work, because he was not registered and he would not be permitted to. but to move from a larger city to a smaller one, then they may register, such as minsk. mr. rankin. by register, do you mean that if you want to go to a place like leningrad, you had to be recorded some way in the city? mrs. oswald. yes, that is, registered in the police department. mr. rankin. and if you were not registered, they would not give you a job, is that what you mean? mrs. oswald. yes. no, you would not get a job. there are people who want to come to leningrad. the housing problem has not been solved. mr. rankin. can you tell us how you get registered if you would like to be registered in leningrad from some other point? mrs. oswald. first you must have relatives who might have some spare living space for a person. sometimes people who have money buy that. you know money does a great deal everywhere. mr. rankin. and then after you have shown that you have a place to live, do they register you as a matter of course, or do you have to have something else? mrs. oswald. not always. one has to have connections, acquaintances. mr. rankin. were you registered in leningrad before you left there? mrs. oswald. yes, of course. but if i had spent one year not living in leningrad, and were to return, i would not be registered. mr. rankin. but since you were registered there, you could have found a position in some pharmacy or pharmaceutical work there, could you? mrs. oswald. oh, yes, of course. mr. rankin. then, can you tell us how you decided to go to minsk instead of staying in leningrad? mrs. oswald. i was very sorry to leave leningrad, but there were family circumstances. what can one do? it is not very pleasant to be a sty in the eye of a stepfather. mr. rankin. so it is because you liked to leave your stepfather's home that you sought some other city in which to work? mrs. oswald. yes. i had no other place to live in leningrad, and i did not have enough money to pay for an apartment. i received and i would have had to pay for an apartment. mr. rankin. could you have gotten a job in leningrad if you stayed there that would pay you so you could have an apartment? mrs. oswald. pharmaceutical workers received comparatively little, which is quite undeserved, because they have to study so long, and it is responsible work. teachers and doctors also receive very little. mr. rankin. did you conclude that you could not get a job that would pay you enough to live in your own apartment in leningrad, then? mrs. oswald. if i had an apartment in leningrad. i would have had to work overtime hours in order to be able to pay for it, because the normal workday is only - / hours, because they consider that to be hazardous work. mr. rankin. did you have a social life while you were in leningrad? mrs. oswald. what do you mean by social life? mr. rankin. did you have friends that you went out with in the evening, pleasant times? mrs. oswald. an awful lot. mr. rankin. so that except for the problem of your stepfather, you enjoyed it there? mrs. oswald. oh, yes, of course. mr. rankin. did you have any vacations while you were in leningrad? mrs. oswald. yes. after working in minsk for one year i received a vacation and went to a rest home near leningrad. mr. rankin. how long did you stay there on vacation? mrs. oswald. three weeks. three weeks in the rest home, and one week i spent in leningrad with some friends. mr. rankin. do you recall the name of the rest home? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. did you have to ask anyone in leningrad in order to be able to leave there to go to minsk, or you just go to minsk and ask the people there to register you? mrs. oswald. i simply bought a ticket and went to minsk, to my uncle. mr. rankin. and were you registered there then? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. what kind of pay did you get when you worked in minsk? mrs. oswald. forty-five, as everywhere. mr. rankin. was that per week? mrs. oswald. no, that is a month. that is not america. mr. rankin. is that rubles? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. per month? mr. dulles. old rubles or new rubles? mr. rankin. is that old rubles? mrs. oswald. new rubles. mr. rankin. what were your hours in this work? mrs. oswald. a.m., to : p.m. mr. rankin. when you said this same pay was paid all over, did you mean to say that you got the same amount regardless of whether you were in a big city or a small city? mrs. oswald. this is the pharmacists rate everywhere. unless you work in a specialized sort of an institution, such as a military hospital--there the pay is higher. mr. rankin. what was the nature of your work? mrs. oswald. preparation of prescriptions. mr. rankin. did you supervise the preparation of the prescriptions, or did you just put them up yourself? mrs. oswald. i prepared them myself. mr. rankin. did you have a supervisor? mrs. oswald. i was in charge of myself. if i was working at a table, i was responsible for it. of course every institution is in charge of a supervisor who does not prepare medications--he is only an administrator. mr. rankin. how many days of the week did you work on this job? mrs. oswald. six days. except if a holiday falls upon a weekday. then i didn't work. mr. rankin. were these prescriptions prepared only for patients in the hospital? mrs. oswald. yes. sometimes we prepared something for ourselves or for friends, or somebody would ask us. mr. rankin. did you pay anything to your uncle and aunt for staying there? mrs. oswald. no. they had--they were well provided for, and my uncle wanted that i spend the money on myself. mr. rankin. what was the name of this uncle? mrs. oswald. ilva vasilyevich proosakov. mr. rankin. what was the nature of his work? mrs. oswald. he works in the ministry of the interior of the byelorussian ssr. mr. rankin. did he have something to do with lumbering? mrs. oswald. he is an engineer. he is a graduate of a forestry institute. technical institute. mr. rankin. is he an officer? mrs. oswald. he was a colonel--a lieutenant colonel or colonel, i think. mr. rankin. did he have a nice apartment compared with the others? mrs. oswald. yes, very nice. mr. rankin. did he have a telephone in the apartment? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. were you supporting yourself during this period except for the fact you didn't pay anything for your room and board? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. did you save money? mrs. oswald. no. i would receive my pay and i would spend everything in one day--three days tops. mr. rankin. what would you spend it for? mrs. oswald. first all the necessary things which i had to buy--shoes, an overcoat for winter. it is cold there, and, therefore, you have to wear warm clothes. mr. rankin. was your uncle a member of the communist party? mrs. oswald. yes, he is a communist. mr. rankin. did you belong to any organizations during this period in minsk? mrs. oswald. first i was a member of the trade union. then i joined the comsomol, but i was discharged after one year. mr. rankin. do you know why you were discharged? mrs. oswald. i paid my membership dues regularly, and at first they didn't know who i was or what i was, but after they found out that i had married an american and was getting ready to go to the united states, i was discharged from the comsomol. they said that i had anti-soviet views, even though i had no anti-soviet views of any kind. mr. rankin. do you think that they thought you had anti-soviet views because you married an american? mrs. oswald. they didn't say that. mr. rankin. did they give any reason, other than the fact that you had them? mrs. oswald. they never gave that as a direct reason, because the soviet government was not against marrying an american. but every small official wants to keep his place, and he is afraid of any troubles. i think it was sort of insurance. mr. rankin. was there any kind of a hearing about your being let out of the comsomol? mrs. oswald. oh, yes. mr. rankin. did you attend? mrs. oswald. i didn't go there, and they discharged me without me--i was very glad. there was even a reporter there from comsomol paper, comsomol pravda, i think. he tried to shame me quite strongly--for what, i don't know. and he said that he would write about this in the paper, and i told him "go ahead and write." but he didn't write anything, because, after all, what could he write? mr. rankin. did you make any objection to being removed from the comsomol? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. did you belong to any social clubs there? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. did you belong to any culture groups? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. did you go out with groups of students in the evening? mrs. oswald. of course. mr. rankin. after you came to the united states, did you correspond with some of these friends? mrs. oswald. yes, but these were not the same friends. they were generally some girl friends before i was married and some friends we made later. mr. rankin. did you have a social life there at minsk? mrs. oswald. of course. mr. rankin. what did that social life consist of? did you go to parties or to the opera or theater, or what? mrs. oswald. sometimes we met at the home of some friends. of course we went to the opera, to the theater, to concerts, to the circus. to a restaurant. mr. rankin. when did you first meet lee oswald? mrs. oswald. the first time when i went to a dance, to a party. and there i met lee. mr. rankin. do you recall the date? mrs. oswald. on march th. mr. rankin. what year? mrs. oswald. . mr. rankin. where did you meet him? mrs. oswald. in minsk. mr. rankin. yes--but can you tell us the place? mrs. oswald. in the palace of trade unions. mr. rankin. what kind of a place is that? is that where there are public meetings? mrs. oswald. sometimes they do have meetings there. sometimes it is also rented by some institutes who do not have their own halls for parties. mr. rankin. they have dances? mrs. oswald. yes. every saturday and sunday. mr. rankin. did someone introduce you to him? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. who introduced you? mrs. oswald. i had gone there with my friends from the medical institute, and one of them introduced me to lee. mr. rankin. what was his name? mrs. oswald. yuri mereginsky. mr. rankin. do you know by what name lee oswald was introduced to you? mrs. oswald. everyone there called him alec, at his place of work, because lee is an unusual, cumbersome name. for russians it was easier--this was easier. mr. rankin. is alec a name close to lee, as far as the russian language is concerned? mrs. oswald. a little. somewhat similar. mr. rankin. did you know that lee oswald was an american when you first met him? mrs. oswald. i found that out at the end of that party, towards the end of that party, when i was first introduced to him, i didn't know that. mr. rankin. did that make any difference? mrs. oswald. it was more interesting, of course. you don't meet americans very often. mr. rankin. after this first meeting, did you meet him a number of times? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. can you describe just briefly how you met him and saw him? mrs. oswald. after the first meeting he asked me where he could meet me again. i said that perhaps some day i will come back here again, to the palace. about a week later i came there again with my girl friend, and he was there. mr. rankin. and did he have a period that he was in the hospital there? mrs. oswald. i had arranged to meet with him again. i had already given him a telephone number. but he went to a hospital and he called me from there. we had arranged to meet on a friday, and he called from the hospital and said he couldn't because he was in the hospital and i should come there, if i could. mr. rankin. did you learn what was wrong with him then? mrs. oswald. he was near the ear, nose and throat section and it seems that he had something wrong with his ears and also the glands or polyps. mr. rankin. did you visit him regularly for some period of time? mrs. oswald. yes, quite frequently, because i felt sorry for him being there alone. mr. rankin. and did you observe a scar on his left arm? mrs. oswald. he had a scar, but i found that out only after we were married. mr. rankin. what did you find out about that scar? mrs. oswald. when i asked him about it, he became very angry and asked me never to ask about that again. mr. rankin. did he ever explain to you what caused the scar? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. did you ever learn what caused the scar? mrs. oswald. i found out here, now, recently. mr. rankin. did you learn that he had tried to commit suicide at some time? mrs. oswald. i found that out now. mr. rankin. during the time lee oswald was courting you, did he talk about america at all? mrs. oswald. yes, of course. mr. rankin. what do you recall that he said about it? mrs. oswald. at that time, of course, he was homesick, and perhaps he was sorry for having come to russia. he said many good things. he said that his home was warmer and that people lived better. mr. rankin. did he talk about returning? mrs. oswald. then? no. mr. rankin. did he describe the life in america as being very attractive? mrs. oswald. yes. at least in front of others he always defended it. mr. rankin. did he---- mrs. oswald. it is strange to reconcile this. when he was there he was saying good things about america. mr. rankin. and when he was talking only to you, did he do that, too? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. before you were married, did you find out anything about his plans to return to america? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. did you learn anything before you were married about the fact that there might be some doubt whether he could return to the united states? mrs. oswald. once before we were married we had a talk and i asked him whether he could return to the united states if he wanted to, and he said no, he could not. mr. rankin. did he tell you why? mrs. oswald. no. at that time, he didn't. he said that when he had arrived, he had thrown his passport on a table and said that he would not return any more to the united states. he thought that they would not forgive him such an act. mr. rankin. before you were married, did you ever say to him you would like to go to the united states? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. can you tell us what attracted you to him? mrs. oswald. i don't know. first, the fact that he was--he didn't look like others. you could see he was an american. he was very neat, very polite, not the way he was here, not as you know him here. and it seemed that he would be a good family man. and he was good. mr. rankin. did you talk about many things when you were together, when he was courting you? mrs. oswald. we talked about everything, about the moon and the weather. mr. rankin. where was he living at that time? mrs. oswald. in minsk. by the way, on the same street where i lived. mr. rankin. did he have an apartment? mrs. oswald. yes. by the way, this was the same apartment where i had dreamed to live. i didn't know about it yet. it had a very beautiful balcony, terrace. i would look at that building sometimes and say it would be good to visit in that building, visit someone there, but i never thought that i would wind up living there. mr. rankin. can you describe the number of rooms there were in his apartment? mrs. oswald. we had a small room--one room, kitchen, foyer, and bathroom. a large terrace, balcony. mr. rankin. do you know what he paid for rent? mrs. oswald. for two it was quite sufficient. seven and a half rubles per month. mr. rankin. wasn't that pretty cheap for such a nice apartment? mrs. oswald. yes, it was cheap. mr. rankin. was this apartment nicer than most in this city? mrs. oswald. no, in that city they have good apartments because the houses are new. that is, on a russian scale, of course. you cannot compare it to private houses people live in here. mr. rankin. did he have an automobile? mrs. oswald. oh, no. in russia this is a problem. in russia it is difficult to have an automobile. mr. rankin. did he have a television set? mrs. oswald. no. only a radio receiver, a record player. mr. rankin. did you have a telephone? mrs. oswald. no--i don't like television. mr. rankin. why? mrs. oswald. the programs are not always interesting, and you can get into a stupor just watching television. it is better to go to the movies. mr. rankin. what was his occupation at this time? mrs. oswald. he worked in a radio plant in minsk. mr. rankin. do you know what his work was? mrs. oswald. as an ordinary laborer--metal worker. from that point of view, he was nothing special. i had a greater choice in the sense that many of my friends were engineers and doctors. but that is not the main thing. mr. rankin. did others with a similar job have similar apartments? mrs. oswald. the house in which we lived belonged to the factory in which lee worked. but, of course, no one had a separate apartment for only two persons. i think that lee had been given better living conditions, better than others, because he was an american. if lee had been russian, and we would have had two children, we could not have obtained a larger apartment. but since he was an american, we would have obtained the larger one. it seems to me that in russia they treat foreigners better than they should. it would be better if they treated russians better. not all foreigners are better than the russians. mr. rankin. did he say whether he liked this job? mrs. oswald. no, he didn't like it. mr. rankin. what did he say about it? mrs. oswald. first of all, he was being ordered around by someone. he didn't like that. mr. rankin. anything else? mrs. oswald. and the fact that it was comparatively dirty work. mr. rankin. did he say anything about the russian system, whether he liked it or not? mrs. oswald. yes. he didn't like it. not everything, but some things. mr. rankin. did he say anything about communists and whether he liked that? mrs. oswald. he didn't like russian communists. he said that they joined the party not because of the ideas, but in order to obtain better living conditions and to get the benefit of them. mr. rankin. did it appear to you that he had become disenchanted with the soviet system? mrs. oswald. yes, he had expected much more when he first arrived. mr. rankin. did he ever tell you why he came to russia? mrs. oswald. yes. he said he had read a great deal about russia, he was interested in seeing the country, which was the first in the socialist camp about which much had been said, and he wanted to see it with his own eyes. and, therefore, he wanted to be not merely a tourist, who is being shown only the things that are good, but he wanted to live among the masses and see. but when he actually did, it turned out to be quite difficult. the chairman. i think we better adjourn now for the day. (whereupon, at : p.m., the president's commission recessed.) _thursday, february , _ testimony of mrs. lee harvey oswald resumed the president's commission met at a.m. on february , , at maryland avenue ne., washington, d.c. present were chief justice earl warren, chairman; senator john sherman cooper, representative hale boggs, representative gerald r. ford, and allen w. dulles, members. also present were j. lee rankin, general counsel; melvin aron eisenberg, assistant counsel; norman redlich, assistant counsel; william d. krimer, and leon i. gopadze, interpreters; and john m. thorne, attorney for mrs. lee harvey oswald. the chairman. the commission will be in order. we will proceed again. mr. rankin? mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, if i may return a moment with you to the time that you told us about your husband practicing with the rifle at love field. as i recall your testimony, you said that he told you that he had taken the rifle and practiced with it there, is that right? mrs. oswald. i knew that he practiced with it there. he told me, later. mr. rankin. and by practicing with it, did you mean that he fired the rifle there, as you understood it? mrs. oswald. i don't know what he did with it there. he probably fired it. but i didn't see him. mr. rankin. and then you said that you had seen him cleaning it after he came back, is that right? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. now, do you recall your husband having any ammunition around the house at any time? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. and where do you remember his having it in the places you lived? mrs. oswald. on neely street, in dallas, and new orleans. mr. rankin. do you know whether that was rifle ammunition or rifle and pistol ammunition? mrs. oswald. i think it was for the rifle. perhaps he had some pistol ammunition there, but i would not know the difference. mr. rankin. did you observe how much ammunition he had at any time? mrs. oswald. he had a box of about the size of this. mr. rankin. could you give us a little description of how you indicated the box? was it or inches wide? mrs. oswald. about the size here on the pad. mr. rankin. about inches wide and inches long? mrs. oswald. probably. mr. rankin. now, do you recall that you said to your husband at any time that he was just studying marxism so he could get attention? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. in order to cause him not to be so involved in some of these ideas, did you laugh at some of his ideas that he told you about, and make fun of him? mrs. oswald. of course. mr. rankin. did he react to that? mrs. oswald. he became very angry. mr. rankin. and did he ask you at one time, or sometimes, not to make fun of his ideas? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. now, returning to the period in russia, while your husband was courting you, did you talk to him, he talk to you, about his childhood? mrs. oswald. no, not very much. only in connection with photographs, where he was a boy in new york, in the zoo. then in the army--there is a snapshot taken right after he joined the army. mr. rankin. did he tell you about anything he resented about his childhood? mrs. oswald. he said it was hard for him during his childhood, when he was a boy, because there was a great age difference between him and robert, and robert was in some sort of a private school. he also wanted to have a chance to study, but his mother was working, and he couldn't get into a private school, and he was very sorry about it. mr. rankin. in talking about that, did he indicate a feeling that he had not had as good an opportunity as his brother robert? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. when he talked about his service in the marines, did he tell you much about what he did? mrs. oswald. he didn't talk much about it, because there wasn't very much there of interest to me. but he was satisfied. mr. rankin. did he indicate that he was unhappy about his service with the marines? mrs. oswald. no, he had good memories of his service in the army. he said that the food was good and that sometimes evenings he had a chance to go out. mr. rankin. did he say anything about his mother during this period of time? mrs. oswald. this was before we were married. i had once asked lee whether he had a mother, and he said he had no mother. i started to question him as to what had happened, what happened to her, and he said that i should not question him about it. after we were married, he told me that he had not told me the truth, that he did have a mother, but that he didn't love her very much. mr. rankin. did he tell you why he didn't love her? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. do you recall anything more he said about his brother robert at that time? mrs. oswald. he said that he had a good wife, that he had succeeded fairly well in life, that he was smart and capable. mr. rankin. did he say anything about having any affection for him? mrs. oswald. yes, he loved robert. he said that when robert married vada that his mother had been against the marriage and that she had made a scene, and this was one of the reasons he didn't like his mother. mr. rankin. did he say anything about his half brother, by the name of pic--i guess the last name was pic--robert pic? mrs. oswald. he said that he had a half brother by the name of pic from his mother's first marriage, but he didn't enlarge upon the subject. it is only that i knew he had a half brother by that name. he said that at one time they lived with this john pic and his wife, but that his wife and the mother frequently had arguments, quarrels. he said it was hard for him to witness these scenes, it was unpleasant. mr. rankin. did you regard your husband's wage or salary at minsk as high for the work he was doing? mrs. oswald. no. he received as much as the others in similar jobs. mr. rankin. did your husband have friends in minsk when you first met him? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. how did he seem to get along with these friends? mrs. oswald. he had a very good relationship with them. mr. rankin. did he discuss any of them with you? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. will you tell us when you married your husband? mrs. oswald. april , . mr. rankin. was there a marriage ceremony? mrs. oswald. not in a church, of course. but in the institution called zags, where we were registered. mr. rankin. was anyone else present at the ceremony? mrs. oswald. yes, our friends were there. mr. rankin. who else was there? mrs. oswald. no one besides my girlfriends and some acquaintances. my uncle and aunt were busy preparing the house, and they were not there for that reason. mr. rankin. after you were married did you go to live in your husband's apartment there? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. did you buy any new furniture? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. when was your baby born? mrs. oswald. february , . mr. rankin. what is her name? mrs. oswald. june lee oswald. mr. rankin. did you stop working before the birth of the baby? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. did you return to work after the baby was born? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. how did you and your husband get along during the period that you were in minsk, after you were married? mrs. oswald. we lived well. mr. rankin. were you a member of the trade union at minsk? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. did you have a membership booklet? mrs. oswald. yes, a booklet. mr. rankin. i hand you exhibit and ask you if that is the trade union booklet that you had there. mrs. oswald. i never have a good photograph. mr. rankin. i offer in evidence exhibit . the chairman. it may be admitted and take the next number. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. and received in evidence.) mr. rankin. did you pay dues to the trade union? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. we didn't notice any notation of dues payments in this booklet, exhibit . do you know why that was? mrs. oswald. i forgot to paste the stamps in. mr. rankin. that is for the period between and , they don't seem to be in there. mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. but you made the payments--you just didn't put the stamps in, is that right? mrs. oswald. yes. simply because this is not important. i got the stamps, but the stubs remained with the person to whom i made the payment. mr. rankin. we noted that the book shows a birth date of rather than . do you know how that happened? mrs. oswald. the girl who prepared this booklet thought that i was older and put down instead of . mr. rankin. the booklet doesn't seem to show any registration in minsk. do you know why that would occur? mrs. oswald. because the booklet was issued in leningrad. mr. rankin. is it the practice to record a registration in a city that you move to, or isn't that a practice that is followed? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. did your husband engage in any communist party activities while he was in the soviet union? mrs. oswald. not at all--absolutely not. mr. rankin. do you know whether he was a member of any organization there? mrs. oswald. i think that he was also a member of a trade union, as everybody who works belongs to a trade union. then he had a card from a hunting club, but he never visited it. he joined the club, apparently. mr. rankin. did he go hunting while he was there? mrs. oswald. we only went once, with him and with my friends. mr. rankin. was that when he went hunting for squirrels? mrs. oswald. if he marked it down in his notebook that he went hunting for squirrels, he never did. generally they wanted to kill a squirrel when we went there, or some sort of a bird, in order to boast about it, but they didn't. mr. rankin. were there any times while he was in the soviet union after your marriage that you didn't know where he went? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. when did you first learn that he was planning to try to go back to the united states? mrs. oswald. after we were married, perhaps a month after. mr. rankin. did you discuss the matter at that time? mrs. oswald. we didn't discuss it--we talked about it--because we didn't make any specific plans. mr. rankin. do you recall what you said about it then? mrs. oswald. i said, "well, if we will go, we will go. if we remain, it doesn't make any difference to me. if we go to china, i will also go." mr. rankin. did you and your husband make a trip to moscow in connection with your plans to go to the united states? mrs. oswald. yes. we went to the american embassy. mr. rankin. did your husband make a trip to moscow alone before that? about his passport? mrs. oswald. he didn't go alone. he actually left a day early and the following morning i was to come there. mr. rankin. i understood that he didn't get any permission to make this trip to moscow away from minsk. do you know whether that is true? mrs. oswald. i don't know about this. i know that he bought a ticket and he made the flight. mr. rankin. according to the practice, then, would he be permitted to go to moscow from minsk without the permission of the authorities? mrs. oswald. i don't know whether he had the right to go to moscow. perhaps he did, because he had a letter requesting him to visit the embassy. but he could not go to another city without permission of the authorities. mr. rankin. when the decision was made to come to the united states, did you discuss that with your family? mrs. oswald. first when we made the decision, we didn't know what would come of it later, what would happen further. and lee asked me not to talk about it for the time being. mr. rankin. later, did you discuss it with your family? mrs. oswald. later when i went to visit the embassy, my aunt found out about it, because they had telephoned from work, and she was offended because i had not told her about it. they were against our plan. mr. rankin. did you tell your friends about your plans after you were trying to arrange to go to the united states? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. was there some opposition by people in the soviet union to your going to the united states? mrs. oswald. somewhat. you can't really call that opposition. there were difficult times. mr. rankin. can you tell us what you mean by that? mrs. oswald. first, the fact that i was excluded from the komsomol. this was not a blow for me, but it was, of course, unpleasant. then all kinds of meetings were arranged and members of the various organizations talked to me. my aunt and uncle would not talk to me for a long time. mr. rankin. and that was all because you were planning to go to the united states? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. were you hospitalized and received medical treatment because of all of these things that happened at that time, about your leaving? mrs. oswald. no. what? mr. rankin. did you have any nervous disorder in that you were hospitalized for? mrs. oswald. i was nervous, but i didn't go to the hospital. i am nervous now, too. mr. rankin. then you went to kharkov on a vacation, didn't you? mrs. oswald. yes. if you have a record of the fact that i was in the hospital, yes, i was. but i was in the hospital only as a precaution because i was pregnant. i have a negative rh factor, blood rh factor, and if lee had a positive they thought--they thought that he had positive--even though he doesn't. it turned out that we both had the same rh factor. mr. rankin. did you receive a promotion about this time in the work you were doing? mrs. oswald. no, no one gets promoted. you work for years as an assistant. all the assistants were on the same level. there were no sub-managers, except for the manager who was in charge of the pharmacy. mr. rankin. what i am asking is your becoming an assistant druggist. was that something different? mrs. oswald. at first i was--i have to call it--an analyst. my job was to check prescriptions that had been prepared. there was no vacancy for an assistant, pharmacy assistant at first. but then i liked the work of a pharmacist's assistant better, and i changed to that. mr. rankin. i will hand you exhibit and ask you if that is a book that shows that you were promoted or became an assistant druggist. mrs. oswald. the entry here said, "hired as chemist analyst of the pharmacy." the next entry says, "transferred to the job of pharmacy assistant." these are simply different types of work. but one is not any higher than the other--not because one is a type of management and the other is not. if someone prepared a prescription and i checked it, that was no different from the other work. there is a difference, of course, but not in the sense of a grade of service. mr. rankin. i offer in evidence exhibit . the chairman. it may be admitted and take the next number. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. rankin. mr. chairman, i ask leave at this time to substitute photostatic copies of any documentary evidence offered, and photographs of any physical evidence, with the understanding that the originals will be held subject to the further order of the commission. the chairman. very well. that may be done. mr. rankin. were you aware of your husband's concern about being prosecuted with regard to his returning to the united states? mrs. oswald. yes, he told me about it. he told me about it, that perhaps he might even be arrested. mr. rankin. was he fearful of prosecution by the soviet union or by the united states? mrs. oswald. the united states. mr. rankin. do you recall any time that the soviet authorities visited your husband while you were trying to go to the united states? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. what was the occasion for your traveling to kharkov in ? mrs. oswald. my mother's sister lives there, and she had invited me to come there for a rest because i was on vacation. mr. rankin. did anyone go with you? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. how long did you stay? mrs. oswald. three weeks, i think. mr. rankin. did you write to your husband while you were gone? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. was your aunt's name mikhilova? mrs. oswald. mikhilova, yes. mr. rankin. was there any reason why you took this vacation alone and not with your husband? mrs. oswald. he was working at that time. he didn't have a vacation. he wanted to go with me, but he could not. mr. rankin. do you know what delayed your departure to the united states? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. there was some correspondence with the embassy about your husband returning alone. did you ever discuss that? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. what did he say about that, and what did you say? mrs. oswald. he said that if he did go alone, he feared that they would not permit me to leave, and that he would, therefore, wait for me. mr. rankin. what did you say? mrs. oswald. i thanked him for the fact that he wanted to wait for me. mr. rankin. where did you stay in moscow when you went there about your visa? mrs. oswald. at first, we stopped at the hotel ostamkino. and then we moved to the hotel berlin, formerly savoy. mr. rankin. how long were you there on that trip? mrs. oswald. i think about days, perhaps a little longer. mr. rankin. did you ever have any status in the armed forces of the soviet union? mrs. oswald. no. but all medical workers, military, are obligated--all medical workers have a military obligation. in the event of a war, we would be in first place. mr. rankin. did you ever learn from your husband how he paid his expenses in moscow for the period prior to the time you went to minsk? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. i hand you exhibit and ask you if that is a booklet that records your military status. mrs. oswald. i didn't work. it is simply that i was obligated. there is an indication there "non-party member". mr. rankin. i offer in evidence exhibit . the chairman. it may be received. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. rankin. as i understand you, you did not serve in the armed forces of the soviet union, but because of your ability as a pharmacist, you were obligated, if the call was ever extended to you, is that right? mrs. oswald. yes, that is correct. mr. rankin. do you know any reason why your husband was permitted to stay in the soviet union when he first came there? mrs. oswald. i don't know. mr. rankin. do you know why---- mrs. oswald. many were surprised at that--here and in russia. mr. rankin. do you know why he went to minsk, or was allowed to go to minsk? mrs. oswald. he was sent to minsk. mr. rankin. by that, you mean by direction of the government? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. did your husband do any writing while he was in the soviet union that you know of? mrs. oswald. yes, he wrote a diary about his stay in the soviet union. mr. rankin. i hand you exhibit and ask you if that is a photostatic copy of the diary that you have just referred to. mrs. oswald. yes, that is lee's handwriting. it is a pity that i don't understand it. is that all? it seems to me there was more. mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, that is all of the historic diary that we have received. there are some other materials that i will call your attention to, but apparently they are not part of that. i offer in evidence exhibit . the chairman. it may be admitted and take the next number. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mrs. oswald. that is all that only has reference to this? or is that everything that lee had written? mr. rankin. no, it is not all that he ever wrote, but it is all that apparently fits together as a part of the descriptive diary in regard to the time he was in russia. do you know when your husband made exhibit , as compared with doing it daily or from time to time--how it was made? mrs. oswald. sometimes two or three days in a row. sometimes he would not write at all. in accordance with the way he felt about it. the chairman. mrs. oswald, you said a few moments ago it was a pity that you could not read this. would you like to have the interpreter read it to you later, so you will know what is in it? you may, if you wish. mrs. oswald. some other time, later, when i know english myself perhaps. the chairman. you may see it any time you wish. mr. rankin. mr. chairman, i just heard mr. thorne ask if there was any reason why they could not have photocopies of the exhibits. i know no reason. the chairman. no, there is no reason why you cannot. you may have it. mr. thorne. thank you. mr. rankin. mrs. oswald has raised the question about whether this was complete. and this was all that was given us, as exhibit , but we are going to check back on it to determine whether there was anything that may have been overlooked by the bureau when they gave it to us. mrs. oswald, your husband apparently made another diary that he wrote on some paper of the holland america line. are you familiar with that? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. i will hand you exhibit and ask you if you recall having seen that. mrs. oswald. i know this paper, but i didn't know what was contained in it. i didn't know this was a diary. mr. rankin. do you know what it was? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. possibly i misdescribed it, mrs. oswald. it may be more accurately described as a story of his experiences in the soviet union. mrs. oswald. i don't know even when he wrote this, whether this was aboard the ship or after we came to the united states. i only know the paper itself and the handwriting. mr. rankin. do you know whether it is your husband's handwriting? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. i offer in evidence exhibit . the chairman. it may be admitted. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. rankin. do you recall how much money you and your husband had in savings when you left moscow for the united states? mrs. oswald. i don't know, because lee did not tell me how much money he had, because he knew that if he would tell me i would spend everything. but i think that we might have had somewhere about rubles, or somewhat more, perhaps. mr. rankin. how did you travel from moscow to the united states? mrs. oswald. i told you--from moscow by train, through poland, germany, and holland, and from holland by boat to new york. from new york to dallas by air. mr. rankin. i think you told us by another ship from holland. i wonder if it wasn't the ss _maasdam_. does that refresh your memory? mrs. oswald. perhaps. i probably am mixed up in the names because it is a strange name. mr. rankin. do you recall that you exchanged united states money for polish money during this trip? mrs. oswald. yes, in warsaw, on the black market. mr. rankin. did you buy food there? mrs. oswald. yes. some good polish beer and a lot of candy. by the way, we got an awful lot for one dollar, they were so happy to get it. more than the official rate. mr. rankin. did your husband drink then? mrs. oswald. no. he doesn't drink beer, he doesn't drink anything, he doesn't like beer. i drank the beer. i don't like wine, by the way. mr. rankin. do you recall that you or your husband were contacted at any time in the soviet union by soviet intelligence people? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. during the time your husband was in the soviet union, did you observe any indication of mental disorder? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. how did he appear to get along with people that he knew in the soviet union? mrs. oswald. very well. at least, he had friends there. he didn't have any here. mr. rankin. how much time did you spend in amsterdam on the way to the united states? mrs. oswald. two or three days, it seems to me. mr. rankin. what did you do there? mrs. oswald. walked around the city, did some sightseeing. mr. rankin. did anybody visit you there? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. did you visit anyone? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. what hotel did you stay in? mrs. oswald. we didn't stop at a hotel. we stopped at a place where they rent apartments. the address was given to us in the american embassy. mr. rankin. do you recall what you paid in the way of rent? mrs. oswald. no, lee paid it. i don't know. mr. rankin. how did your husband spend his time when he was aboard the ship? mrs. oswald. i was somewhat upset because he was a little ashamed to walk around with me, because i wasn't dressed as well as the other girls. basically, i stayed in my cabin while lee went to the movies and they have different games there. i don't know what he did there. mr. rankin. in exhibit , the notations on the holland american line stationery, your husband apparently made some political observations. did he discuss these with you while he was on the trip? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. mr. chairman, it is time for a recess. the chairman. yes. we will take a recess now. (brief recess.) the chairman. the commission will be in order. we will continue. mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, can you tell us what your husband was reading in the soviet union after you were married, that you recall? mrs. oswald. he read the daily worker newspaper in the english language. mr. rankin. anything else? mrs. oswald. it seems to me something like marxism, leninism, also in the english language. he did not have any choice of english books for reading purposes. mr. rankin. was he reading anything in russian at that time? mrs. oswald. yes, newspapers, and nothing else. mr. rankin. no library books? mrs. oswald. no. it was very hard for him. mr. rankin. did he go to any schools while he was in the soviet union that you know of? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. i hand you exhibit and ask you if you can tell us what that is. mrs. oswald. the title of this document is shown here, "information for those who are departing for abroad. personal data--name, last name, date of birth, place of birth, height, color of eyes and hair, married or not, and purpose of the trip." mr. rankin. what does it say about the purpose of the trip--do you recall? mrs. oswald. private exit. mr. rankin. do you recall what members of your family are referred to there under that question? mrs. oswald. it shows here "none." i think before this was filled out--this was before june's birth. mr. rankin. that doesn't refer then to members of your family, like your uncles or aunts, or anything like that? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. mr. chairman, i offer in evidence exhibit . the chairman. it may be admitted. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. rankin. now, i hand you exhibit and ask you if you can recall what that is. mrs. oswald. this is a questionnaire which has to be filled out prior to departure for abroad. mr. rankin. i offer in evidence exhibit . the chairman. it may be admitted. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. rankin. do you recall what relatives you referred to when they asked for close relatives? mrs. oswald. it must be shown there. i don't remember. probably my uncle. mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, can you tell us the handwriting on this exhibit, no. ? mrs. oswald. this is my handwriting. mr. rankin. you say it is all your handwriting? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. now, can you tell us what exhibit is? mrs. oswald. that is the same thing. this was a draft. mr. rankin. you mean a rough draft? mrs. oswald. a rough draft of the same thing. mr. rankin. and the other one is the final? mrs. oswald. i don't know. perhaps there were several drafts, i don't know whether this is from the embassy or from some other source. these are drafts, because the original would have had to have my photograph. lee and i were playing. mr. rankin. then, mrs. oswald, you think both exhibit and are drafts, since neither one has your photograph on them? mrs. oswald. yes. we were playing dominoes, and this is the score. mr. rankin. i ask that exhibit be received in evidence, mr. chairman. the chairman. it will be admitted. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. rankin. i hand you exhibit and ask you if you can tell us what that is? mrs. oswald. this is a residence permit, passport--a passport for abroad. this is a foreign passport for russians who go abroad. mr. rankin. did you understand that you had six months in which to leave under that passport? mrs. oswald. yes. this all has to be filled out before you are allowed to go abroad. mr. rankin. whose handwriting is in exhibit ? mrs. oswald. i don't know who wrote that. it is not i. officials who issue the passport. mr. rankin. i offer in evidence exhibit . the chairman. it may be admitted. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. rankin. do you know any reason why the passport was made valid until january , ? mrs. oswald. because the passport which i turned in and for which i received this one in exchange was valid until . mr. rankin. you had a passport prior to this one, then? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. had you obtained that before you were married? mrs. oswald. all citizens of the u.s.s.r. and over must have a passport. it would be good if everyone had a passport here. it would help the government more. mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, you have told us considerably about your husband's unhappiness with the united states and his idea that things would be much better in cuba, if he could get there. do you recall that? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. do you recall what he said about what he didn't like about the united states? mrs. oswald. the problem of unemployment. mr. rankin. anything else? mrs. oswald. i already said what he didn't like--that it was hard to get an education, that medical care is very expensive. about his political dissatisfaction, he didn't speak to me. mr. rankin. did he ever say anything against the leaders of the government here? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. mr. chairman, that is all we have now except the physical exhibits, and i think we could do that at o'clock. the chairman. mrs. oswald, we are going to recess now until o'clock. you must be quite tired by now. and this afternoon we are going to introduce some of the physical objects that are essential to make up our record. when we finish with those, i think your testimony will be completed. and i think we should finish today. you won't be unhappy about that, will you? mrs. oswald. no. thank you. the chairman. o'clock this afternoon. (whereupon, at : a.m., the president's commission recessed.) afternoon session testimony of mrs. lee harvey oswald resumed the president's commission reconvened at p.m. the chairman. the commission will be in order. mr. rankin, you may continue. mr. rankin. mr. chairman, i understand that mrs. oswald has examined a considerable volume of correspondence during the recess. in order to be helpful, she has identified it, and she is able to tell, through her counsel, by a number for each exhibit, who the letter was to or from as the case may be. and, after i offer the exhibits, or as part of the offer, i will ask mr. thorne if he will tell the description of the recipient and the writer of the letter in the various cases. these exhibits are exhibits through , inclusive. mr. thorne. exhibit no. is a telegram from a former fiance's mother. exhibit no. is a letter from her friend who studied with her, by the name of ella soboleva. exhibit no. is a letter from the ziger family, who are friends. exhibit no. is another letter from alexander ziger. a friend of the family's. exhibit no. is a letter concerning departure to the united states by marina and her husband. she doesn't know who sent the letter or who received it. it is merely some material that she has. exhibit no. is an envelope from a friend which contained a letter which is not shown. exhibit no. is a letter from a former fiance's mother, the same one that sent the telegram, and exhibit no. . exhibit no. is a letter from marina to lee while she was in the hospital, during the birth of june lee. exhibit no. is a letter from olga dmovskaya, a friend. mr. rankin. when you say fiance, do you mean she was engaged to someone else? mr. thorne. this is what i understand--prior to her relationship to lee. exhibit no. is another letter from ella soboleva. exhibit no. is a letter from lee harvey to marina while she was in the hospital with june lee, during the birth of the baby. exhibit no. is a letter from her aunt valya. exhibit no. is a letter from their friend pavel. exhibit no. is the start of a letter by marina which was never finished. exhibit no. is the start of a letter by marina which was never finished. exhibit no. is a letter from olga dmovskaya, the same person who sent a letter in exhibit no. . exhibit no. is a letter--is another letter from aunt valya. exhibit no. is a letter from a friend by the name of tolya. exhibit no. is an address of one of marina's friends. exhibit no. is marina's draft of a letter to the consulate. may i see exhibit ? i am trying to clear up a point. mr. dulles. what is the date of that? mrs. oswald. that is not a letter. that is an autobiography. mr. thorne. yes, that is correct. it is the draft of an autobiography for the russian consulate. exhibit no. is a letter from a friend erick titovetz. exhibit no. is another letter from aunt valya. exhibit no. is a letter received by marina while she was in the hospital with june lee. exhibit no. is lee harvey oswald's writing. exhibit no. is a letter from a friend, laliya. exhibit no. is a letter from lee harvey oswald to marina while she was in kharkov. exhibit no. is the same. exhibit no. is a letter from aunt valya. exhibit no. is a letter from lee harvey oswald to marina while she was in the hospital with june lee. exhibit no. is the same. exhibit no. is the same. exhibit no. is the same. exhibit no. is a letter from anna meller, who lives in dallas, to marina. exhibit no. is a letter from lee harvey oswald to marina while she was in the hospital, giving birth to june lee. exhibit no. is a letter from lee harvey oswald--is a letter to lee from erick titovetz. exhibit no. is the second page of exhibit no. . that completes the exhibits. mr. rankin. we offer in evidence exhibits through , inclusive. the chairman. they may be admitted and take the appropriate numbers. (the documents referred to were marked commission exhibit nos. through , inclusive, and received in evidence.) mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, you remember i asked you about the diary that your husband kept. you said that he completed it in russia before he came to this country, do you remember that? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. do you know whether or not the entries that he made in that diary were made each day as the events occurred? mrs. oswald. no, not each day. mr. rankin. were they noted shortly after the time they occurred? mrs. oswald. not all events. what happened in moscow i don't think that lee wrote that in moscow. mr. rankin. what about the entries concerning what happened in minsk? mrs. oswald. he wrote this while he was working. mr. rankin. and you think those entries were made close to the time that the events occurred? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. as i understand you, you think that the entries concerning the time he was in moscow before he went to minsk were entered some time while he was in minsk, is that right? mrs. oswald. i think so, but i don't know. mr. rankin. do you know why your husband was sent to minsk to work and live after he came to the soviet union, instead of some other city? mrs. oswald. he was sent there because this is a young and developing city where there are many industrial enterprises which needed personnel. it is an old, a very old city. but after the war, it had been almost completely built anew, because everything has been destroyed. it was easier in the sense of living space in minsk--it was easier to secure living space. many immigrants are sent to minsk. there are many immigrants there now. mr. rankin. were there many americans there? mrs. oswald. americans? no. but from south america, from argentina, we knew many. many argentinians live there--comparatively many. mr. rankin. did your husband say much about the time he was in moscow before he went to minsk and what he did there? mrs. oswald. he didn't tell me particularly much about it, but he said that he walked in moscow a great deal, that he had visited museums, that he liked moscow better than minsk, and that he would have liked to live in moscow. mr. rankin. did he say anything about having been on the radio or television at moscow? mrs. oswald. he said that he was on the radio. mr. rankin. did he tell you anything about any ceremonies for him when he asked for soviet citizenship? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. when he was not granted soviet citizenship, did he say anything about the soviet government or his reaction towards their failure to give him citizenship? mrs. oswald. when i read the diary, i concluded from the diary that lee wanted to become a citizen of the soviet union and that he had been refused, but after we were married we talked on that subject and he said it was good that he had refused to accept citizenship. therefore, i had always thought that lee had been offered citizenship--but that he didn't want it. mr. rankin. what diary are you referring to that you read? mrs. oswald. the diary about which we talked here previously--in the preceding session. mr. rankin. the one that was completed in russia that you referred to? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. and when did you first read that? mrs. oswald. i had never read it, because i didn't understand english. but when i was questioned by the fbi, they read me excerpts from that diary. mr. rankin. and that was after the assassination? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. when you and lee oswald decided to get married, was there a period of time you had to wait before it could be official? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. did you file an application and then have a period to wait? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. how long was that period of waiting? mrs. oswald. ten days. mr. rankin. after it was known in minsk that you were to marry this american, did any officials come to you and talk to you about the marriage? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, we have exhibits through that we are going to ask your counsel to show to you, and after you have looked at them and are satisfied that you can identify them, then we will ask you to comment on them. mrs. oswald. this is from lee when i was in the hospital. mr. rankin. what exhibit is that? mr. thorne. these are all part of exhibit . they are various miscellaneous pieces of writing involved in this particular exhibit. mrs. oswald. it was not in june that i was in the hospital. he didn't know that i was in the hospital. mr. rankin. by "he" do you mean your husband lee oswald? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. and when did he not know that you were in the hospital? mrs. oswald. because i was going to work when i began to feel ill, and i was taken to the hospital. mr. rankin. and what time was that? mrs. oswald. in the morning, about a.m. mr. rankin. i mean about what day or month or year? mrs. oswald. september . mr. rankin. is that before you went to kharkov? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. and we have already discussed, or i have asked you about that time you were in the hospital. mrs. oswald. yes. i was there twice. mr. rankin. by twice, you mean this time you have described before you went to kharkov and the other time when you had the baby? mrs. oswald. this is a letter from inesse yakhliel. mr. rankin. that is exhibit ? mr. thorne. no, sir, these are all part of exhibit . mr. dulles. i wonder if these should not be marked in some way, because you won't be able to find out what they are in the future--a, b, c, d, or something of this kind. mr. rankin. mr. redlich, will you mark those as -a, b, c, and d, or however they run? mr. thorne, when you say the first one marked "a", will you make it clear what that is? mr. thorne. the exhibit marked "a"--let me hasten to point out that all of these pieces of paper have a mark " r". we are denoting individually these papers by starting with a, b, c, and so on. "a" represents the first piece of paper that was identified earlier in this testimony by mrs. oswald, referring again specifically to exhibit , which is composed of many such pieces of paper. exhibit b was the second piece of paper that was identified by mrs. oswald. i believe this is the third. mrs. oswald. this is a letter from inessa yakhliel. mr. thorne. this will be identified as c. mrs. oswald. the envelope of a letter that lee wrote me, to kharkov. mr. thorne. that is identified as exhibit d. mrs. oswald. from inessa yakhliel. mr. thorne. this is identified as exhibit e. mrs. oswald. this is from inessa yakhliel. mr. thorne. this is identified as exhibit f. mrs. oswald. this is from lee. mr. thorne. identified as exhibit g. mrs. oswald. from my aunt luba. mr. thorne. this is identified as exhibit h. mrs. oswald. this is a letter from lee. mr. thorne. exhibit i. now, so there is no confusion, let's state again that these are sub-exhibits, letters, and marked , from a through i, all part of exhibit . mrs. oswald. i would like to obtain these letters, to preserve them. i don't mean now. the chairman. she may see and have copies of any of the letters she desires connected with her testimony. mr. thorne. this is exhibit . mrs. oswald. a photograph of galiya khontooleva. mr. thorne. exhibit . exhibit is two postcards, and they probably need to be identified as a and b. let's identify a. mrs. oswald. that is a letter from lee from new orleans to irving--to the home of mrs. paine. and this is a letter from the mother, lee's mother. mr. thorne. this will be identified as exhibit -b. exhibit is composed of two postcards. exhibit -a---- mrs. oswald. this is from lee, from new orleans, addressed to me, when i lived with ruth paine. mr. thorne. and exhibit -b? mrs. oswald. a letter from a girl friend from russia, ludmila larionova. mr. thorne. exhibit no. , a postcard. mrs. oswald. from my grandmother, from the mother of my stepfather. mr. thorne. exhibit no. . two envelopes. -a---- mrs. oswald. from pavel golovachev, addressed to the address of ruth paine. and this is an envelope from ruth paine. mr. thorne. that is exhibit b. mrs. oswald. a letter to me. mr. thorne. exhibit is a writing. in russian. mrs. oswald. this is a reply to lee's letter about the fact that he wanted to study at the university of peoples friendship, and he was refused. mr. thorne. exhibit contains two pieces of paper. -a is identified as---- mrs. oswald. this is from the time that june was a little baby, a certificate of the fact that she was vaccinated for smallpox. mr. thorne. exhibit b? mrs. oswald. this is anna meller's address and telephone number. mr. thorne. exhibit ? mrs. oswald. this is lee's library card of the state library. i think in moscow--the state library. mr. thorne. exhibit contains a writing and an envelope. mrs. oswald. a letter from galiya khontooleva, and an envelope. mr. thorne. exhibit contains three pages of writing, together with an envelope. mrs. oswald. this was when lee and i visited his brother in a city in alabama, he is studying to be a clergyman. there we met a young man who was studying russian, and he wrote me this letter. these are all his letters. mr. thorne. this is three pages of one letter together with the envelope. mrs. oswald. yes. mr. thorne. exhibit contains an envelope and two written pages--two separate pages of writing. mrs. oswald. this is from galiya khontooleva, and the envelope. mr. thorne. exhibit contains an envelope and two handwritten pages of writing. mrs. oswald. this is a letter from ruth paine to new orleans. mr. thorne. exhibit no. contains an envelope and one page of writing. mrs. oswald. this is a letter from pavel golovachev, from minsk. mr. thorne. exhibit no. , two handwritten pages. mrs. oswald. i was forced by the fbi to write an account of how much money i had received through them. mr. thorne. exhibit contains one page of writing. mrs. oswald. the same. mr. thorne. by the same, you mean what? mrs. oswald. a receipt for the receipt of money through the fbi. mr. thorne. are these donations? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. thorne. exhibit contains a page in handwriting. mrs. oswald. a letter from ruth. mr. thorne. exhibit is a photograph. mrs. oswald. the son of ludmila larionova. mr. thorne. exhibit contains an envelope. mrs. oswald. simply an envelope. mr. thorne. exhibit contains an envelope. mrs. oswald. lee wrote to me in kharkov. mr. thorne. exhibit contains an envelope. mrs. oswald. from titovetz, a letter from the soviet union. mr. thorne. exhibit contains an envelope. mrs. oswald. from pavel golovachev. mr. thorne. exhibit contains an envelope and one page of writing. mrs. oswald. a letter from ella soboleva. mr. thorne. and the letter arrived in the envelope? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. thorne. exhibit contains one sheet of writing. mrs. oswald. also from soboleva. mr. thorne. exhibit no. . mrs. oswald. i think from ruth. mr. thorne. this contains several pages--several sheets--three sheets which seem to be one continuous letter. mrs. oswald. a letter from ruth paine. mr. thorne. a three-page letter. exhibit no. contains an envelope. mrs. oswald. from erick titovetz. mr. rankin. we offer in evidence exhibits through , inclusive. the chairman. you have looked over all these, have you, mr. thorne, and your client has identified them? mr. thorne. yes, sir. the chairman. they may be admitted. (the documents referred to were marked commission exhibit nos. through , inclusive, and received in evidence.) mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, we will show you photostatic copies of various writings of your husband. as you look at them, would you tell us what each one is, insofar as you recognize them, please? mr. thorne. this is exhibit , which is a writing, a photocopy of a writing. mr. rankin. do you recognize that exhibit, mrs. oswald? mrs. oswald. lee's handwriting. but i have never seen this. more correctly, i have seen it, but i have never read it. mr. rankin. so you don't know what it purports to be, i take it. mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. that is, you do not? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. but you do recognize his handwriting throughout? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. thorne. may i point out to the commission, please, this is in english. this is handwritten in english and it is typewritten in english. mr. rankin. we offer in evidence exhibit . the chairman. it will be admitted. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. rankin. i should like to inform the commission that exhibit purports to be the book that lee oswald wrote about conditions in the soviet union. the chairman. the one that was dictated to the stenographer? mr. rankin. yes, that is right. mr. redlich. he had had written notes, and she transcribed them. mr. thorne. the next exhibit is exhibit no. , many pages, handwritten, in english. mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, will you tell us what that is, if you know. mrs. oswald. no, i don't know. mr. rankin. do you know whether it is in the handwriting of your husband? mrs. oswald. yes, this is lee's handwriting. these are all his papers. i don't know about them. everything is in english. i don't know. mr. rankin. we offer in evidence exhibit . the chairman. exhibit may be admitted. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. rankin. i should like to advise the commission that this exhibit purports to be a résumé of his marine corps experience, and some additional minor notes. mr. thorne. exhibit no. is photocopies of many pages of handwriting, which is in english. mrs. oswald. i don't know what that is. it is lee's handwriting. mr. rankin. we offer in evidence exhibit . the chairman. it may be admitted. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. dulles. do we know what that is? mr. rankin. exhibit consists of handwritten pages on which the book about russia, exhibit , was typewritten. mr. thorne. exhibit no. is a photocopy of many pages of typewriting, typewritten words, which are in english. mrs. oswald. i also don't know. mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, i will ask you, on exhibit , can you identify the handwriting on that? mrs. oswald. it is lee's handwriting. mr. rankin. and did you ever see the pages of that exhibit as a part of his papers and records? mrs. oswald. no. perhaps i saw them, but i don't remember them. mr. rankin. but you know it is his handwriting, where the handwriting appears? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. we offer in evidence exhibit . the chairman. it may be admitted. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. thorne. exhibit is a photocopy of two pages that are handwritten and in english. mrs. oswald. i also don't know what that is. for me, that is a dark forest, a heap of papers. mr. rankin. with regard to exhibit that has been received in evidence, i should like to inform the commission that that is also material concerning the book, regarding conditions in russia. mrs. oswald, will you tell us with regard to exhibit --do you recognize the handwriting on those pages? mrs. oswald. this is all lee's handwriting. mr. rankin. we offer in evidence exhibit . the chairman. it may be admitted. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. rankin. exhibit purports to be notes for a speech or article, on "the new era." mr. thorne. exhibit is a photocopy of several pages, both printed and in writing, handwriting. mrs. oswald. it is amazing that lee had written so well. mr. rankin. do you recognize the handwriting? mrs. oswald. yes, i do. mr. thorne. this is also in english. mrs. oswald, you state he had written so well. by that you mean what? mrs. oswald. neatly. and legibly. mr. rankin. i offer in evidence exhibit . the chairman. exhibit may be admitted. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. thorne. exhibit is three photocopy pages of handwriting in english. mrs. oswald. i don't know what that is. mr. thorne. do you recognize the handwriting? mrs. oswald. that is lee's handwriting. mr. rankin. exhibit appears to be a critique on the communist party in the united states by lee oswald. the chairman. it may be admitted. mr. rankin. we offer in evidence exhibit . the chairman. it may be admitted. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. rankin. exhibit purports to be notes for a speech. mr. thorne. exhibit is one photocopy page of handwriting in english. mrs. oswald. i don't know what that is. mr. thorne. is this lee's handwriting? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. we offer in evidence exhibit . the chairman. it may be admitted. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. thorne. exhibit no. purports to be four pages, photocopy pages, of handwriting, in english. mrs. oswald. lee's handwriting. but what it is, i don't know. i am sorry, but i don't know what it is. mr. rankin. we offer in evidence exhibit . the chairman. it may be admitted. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. rankin. i wish to inform the commission that this purports to be answers to questionnaires, and shows two formats, one showing that he is loyal to the country and another that he is not so loyal. mr. thorne. exhibit is a photocopy of one page which is printed and handwritten in english. mrs. oswald. lee's handwriting. but what it is, i don't know. mr. rankin. we offer in evidence exhibit . the chairman. it may be admitted. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. rankin. this purports to be a portion of the diary and relates to his meeting at the embassy on october , . mr. thorne. exhibit is photocopies of two pages, handwritten, in english. mrs. oswald. lee's handwriting. i don't know what it is. mr. rankin. we offer in evidence exhibit . the chairman. it may be admitted. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. rankin. i wish to call the commission's attention to the fact that exhibit purports to be a draft of memoranda, at least, for a speech. mr. thorne. exhibit is two pages, two photocopy pages, of handwriting, in english. mrs. oswald. from the address i see that it is a letter--it is lee's letter, but to whom, i don't know. mr. rankin. i offer in evidence exhibit . the chairman. it may be admitted under that number. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. rankin. i wish to call the attention of the commission to the fact that exhibit is a purported draft of the letter that lee oswald sent to the embassy, the soviet embassy, which you will recall referred to the fact that his wife was asked by the fbi to defect--had such language in the latter part of it. this draft shows that in this earlier draft he used different language, and decided upon the language that he finally sent in the exhibit that is in the record earlier. the comparison is most illuminating. mr. thorne. exhibit is photocopy pages of a small notebook. mrs. oswald. this is my notebook, various addresses--when i was at the rest home, i simply noted down the addresses of some acquaintances. mr. dulles. is this in russia, or the united states? mrs. oswald. in russia. mr. rankin. we offer in evidence exhibit . the chairman. it may be admitted. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. thorne. exhibit is a notebook---- mr. rankin. exhibit purports to be a small notebook of mrs. oswald. mr. thorne. exhibit is the original of a notebook containing various writings in english and in russian. mrs. oswald. this is when lee was getting ready to go to russia, and he made a list of the things that he wanted to buy and take with him. further, i don't know what he had written in there. mr. dulles. was this the time he went or the time he didn't go? mrs. oswald. when he didn't--when he intended to. mr. rankin. in exhibit , mrs. oswald, i will ask you if you noted that your husband had listed in that "gun and case, price rec. ." mrs. oswald. i don't know what that is. unfortunately, i cannot help. i don't know what this means. mr. rankin. but you do observe the item in the list in that booklet, do you? mrs. oswald. yes. now i see it. mr. rankin. i offer in evidence exhibit . the chairman. that will be received. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. rankin. with regard to exhibit , i should like to inform the commission that as a part of this transcribed record, as soon as we can complete it, we will have photostatic copies of these various exhibits for you, along with photographs of the physical material. but i think you will want to examine some of it very closely. i call your particular attention to this draft of a proposed speech. one of the items, no. , states, "americans are apt to scoff at the idea that a military coup in the u.s. as so often happens in latin american countries, could ever replace our government. but that is an idea that has grounds for consideration. which military organization has the potentialities of exciting such action? is it the army? with its many conscripts, its unwieldy size, its score of bases scattered across the world? the case of general walker shows that the army at least is not fertile enough ground for a far-right regime to go a very long way, for the size, reasons of size, and disposition." then there is an insert i have difficulty in reading. "which service, then, can qualify to launch a coup in the u.s.a.? small size, a permanent hard core of officers and few bases as necessary. only one outfit fits that description, and the u.s. marine corps is a rightwing-infiltrated organization of dire potential consequences to the freedom of the united states. i agree with former president truman when he said that 'the marine corps should be abolished.'" that indicates some of his thinking. the chairman. we will just take a short break. (brief recess.) the chairman. the commission will be in order. mr. thorne. exhibit for identification is a notebook. mrs. oswald. this is my book, some poems by ---- mr. thorne. it contains handwriting in russian. mr. rankin. how did you happen to write that, mrs. oswald? mrs. oswald. i simply liked these verses. i did not have a book of poems. and i made a copy. mr. rankin. i offer in evidence exhibit . the chairman. it may be admitted. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. thorne. exhibit contains a small piece of cardboard with some writing in russian on it. mrs. oswald. this is lee's pass from the factory. mr. rankin. i offer in evidence exhibit . the chairman. it may be admitted. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. thorne. exhibit is an original one sheet of paper, with handwriting in ink, in russian, on one page. mrs. oswald. these are the lyrics of a popular song. mr. rankin. a russian popular song? mrs. oswald. yes. this is armenian--an armenian popular song. mr. rankin. i offer in evidence exhibit . the chairman. it is admitted. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. thorne. exhibit is one sheet with handwriting in ink on both sides, an original. mrs. oswald. this was simply my recollection of some song lyrics and the names of some songs that people had asked me. mr. rankin. i offer exhibit . the chairman. it may be admitted. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. thorne. exhibit is a yellow legal sized sheet with handwriting in russian which seems to be interpreted in english below it, together with a little stamp. i can explain the stamp. it says fbi laboratory. mrs. oswald. this is when george bouhe was giving me lessons. i translated from russian into english--not very successfully--my first lessons. mr. rankin. i offer exhibit . the chairman. it may be admitted. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. rankin. when was it that george bouhe was teaching you english and you wrote this out? mrs. oswald. this was in july . i don't remember when i arrived--in ' or ' . mr. rankin. is the handwriting in exhibit in the russian as well as the english in your handwriting? mrs. oswald. no. the russian is written by bouhe, and the english is written by me. mr. rankin. did you make the translation from the russian into the english by yourself? mrs. oswald. yes, i had to study english. mr. rankin. did you have a dictionary to work with? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. so you were taking a russian-english dictionary and trying to convert the russian words that he wrote out into english, is that right? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. thorne. exhibit is a book written in russian, a pocket book. mrs. oswald. this is my book. mr. rankin. do you notice some of the letters are cut out of that book, exhibit ? mrs. oswald. letters? i see that for the first time. mr. rankin. do you know who did that? mrs. oswald. probably lee was working, but i never saw that. i don't know what he did that for. mr. rankin. you never saw him while he was working with that? mrs. oswald. no. i would have shown him if i had seen him doing that to my book. mr. rankin. you know sometimes messages are made up by cutting out letters that way and putting them together to make words. mrs. oswald. i read about it. mr. rankin. you have never seen him do that? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. i offer exhibit . the chairman. it may be admitted. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. thorne. exhibit is an apparent application--an applicant's driving record. mrs. oswald. i have never seen this. mr. thorne. it is in english. mr. rankin. that is not your driving record, then? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. you don't know whether it was your husband's? mrs. oswald. i don't know. mr. thorne. may i clarify the exhibit? it is an application for a texas driver's license. standard form application. mr. rankin. we offer in evidence exhibit . the chairman. it may be admitted. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mrs. oswald. it is quite possible that lee prepared that, because ruth paine insisted on lee's obtaining a license. mr. rankin. did you hear her insist? mrs. oswald. yes. she said it would be good to have. mr. rankin. and when was that? mrs. oswald. october or november. mr. rankin. ? mrs. oswald. ' . mr. thorne. exhibit is a driver's handbook published by the state of texas. mrs. oswald. we had this book for quite some time. george bouhe had given that to lee if he at some time would try to learn how to drive. mr. rankin. i offer in evidence exhibit . the chairman. it may be admitted. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. rankin. was your husband able to drive a car? mrs. oswald. yes, i think that he knew how. ruth taught him how. mr. rankin. did he have a driver's license that you know of? mrs. oswald. no. this is a russian camera of lee's--binoculars. mr. thorne. exhibit is a leather case containing a pair of binoculars. mr. rankin. do you remember having seen those binoculars, known as exhibit , before? mrs. oswald. yes. we had binoculars in russia because we liked to look through them at a park. mr. rankin. do you know whether your husband used them in connection with the walker incident? mrs. oswald. i don't know. mr. rankin. he never said anything about that? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. we offer in evidence exhibit . the chairman. it may be admitted. (the article referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. thorne. exhibit is a box containing a stamping kit. mrs. oswald. that is lee's. when he was busy with his cuba, he used it. mr. rankin. you mean when he was working on the fair play for cuba, he used this? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. i offer in evidence exhibit . the chairman. it may be admitted. (the article referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. rankin. how did he use that kit in exhibit in connection with his fair play for cuba campaign? mrs. oswald. he had leaflets for which he assembled letters and printed his address. mr. rankin. and he used this kit largely to stamp the address on the letters? mrs. oswald. not letters, but leaflets. mr. rankin. he stamped the address on the leaflets? mrs. oswald. handbills, rather. yes. mr. rankin. do you recall whether he stamped his name on the handbills, too? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. what name did he stamp on them? mrs. oswald. lee harvey oswald. mr. rankin. did he use the name hidell on those, too? mrs. oswald. i don't remember. perhaps. mr. thorne. exhibit is a spanish to english and english to spanish dictionary. mr. rankin. have you seen that before? mrs. oswald. when lee came from mexico city i think he had this. mr. rankin. i offer in evidence exhibit . the chairman. it may be received. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. thorne. exhibit is one sheet of paper with, some penciled markings on it. mrs. oswald. i don't know what that is. i don't know. mr. rankin. do you recognize any of the writing on that exhibit? mrs. oswald. lee's handwriting. mr. rankin. i offer in evidence exhibit . the chairman. it may be admitted. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. thorne. exhibit is a clipping from a newspaper. there are some notations on it. mr. rankin. do you recall seeing that clipping, exhibit , before? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. do you recognize any of the handwriting on it? mrs. oswald. as far as it is visible, it is similar to lee's handwriting. mr. rankin. i offer exhibit . the chairman. may be admitted. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. rankin. i call attention to the members of the commission that exhibit has a reference to the president, with regard to the income tax, and the position of the administration as being favorable to business rather than to the small taxpayer in the approach to the income tax. mr. thorne. exhibit contains a key with a chain. mrs. oswald. i don't know what this is a key to. mr. rankin. it appears to be a key to a padlock. do you recognize it? mrs. oswald. i can see that it is a key to a padlock, but i have never used such a key. mr. rankin. have you ever seen your husband use such a key? mrs. oswald. it is hard to remember what key he used. i know he had a key. (the article referred to was marked as commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. thorne. exhibit purports to be a telescope-- power telescope. mrs. oswald. i have never seen such a telescope. mr. rankin. you never saw it as a part of your husband's things? mrs. oswald. no. (the article referred to was marked for identification as exhibit no. .) mr. thorne. exhibit is a russell stover candy box filled with miscellaneous assortment--medicines of all kinds. mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, can you help us in regard to that exhibit ? are those your medicines or are those your husband's? mrs. oswald. these are all my medications. (the article referred to was marked commission exhibit no. and received in evidence.) mr. thorne. exhibit is a cardboard box containing an assortment of items. mrs. oswald. these are all his things. i think he used this to clean the rifle. mr. rankin. you are showing us pipe cleaners that you say your husband used to clean the rifle, as you remember it? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. how often did he clean it, do you remember? mrs. oswald. not too often. i have already told you. mr. rankin. i offer in evidence exhibit . the chairman. it will be received. (the article referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. thorne. exhibit contains seven small one ounce dark brown bottles. mrs. oswald. lee's brother is a pharmacist. he gave this to us. mr. thorne. as well as the apparent boxes that they came in. mr. rankin. which brother is a pharmacist? mrs. oswald. murret. mr. rankin. you mean his cousin? mrs. oswald. yes. in the russian the word cousin is second brother. mr. rankin. we offer in evidence exhibit . the chairman. it may be received. (the article referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. thorne. exhibit is a hunting knife in a sheath, approximately a - or -inch blade. mrs. oswald. i have never seen this knife. it is a new knife. and that telescope is also new. (the article referred to was marked as commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. thorne. exhibit is a file cabinet for presumably three by five or five by seven inch cards. mrs. oswald. lee kept his printing things in that, pencils. mr. rankin. the things that he printed his fair play for cuba leaflets on? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. pencils and materials that he used in connection with that matter? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. did he have any index cards in that metal case? mrs. oswald. yes, he had some. mr. rankin. you don't know what happened to them? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. do you know what was on those index cards? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. a list of any people that you know of? mrs. oswald. no. i don't know. mr. rankin. were those leaflets about fair play for cuba printed? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. and then did he stamp something on them after he had them printed? mrs. oswald. he would print his name and address on them. mr. rankin. i will offer in evidence exhibit . the chairman. it may be admitted. (the article referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. rankin. you don't know what happened to the cards that were in that? mrs. oswald. no. mr. thorne. exhibit is a small hand overnight bag, canvas zipper bag. mrs. oswald. that is lee's handbag, and he arrived with it from mexico city. mr. rankin. it is one of the bags that you described when you were telling about his bringing one back from mexico city? mrs. oswald. he only had this one. mr. rankin. exhibit was the only bag that he brought back? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. we offer in evidence exhibit . the chairman. it may be admitted. (the article referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. thorne. exhibit is a suitcase. mrs. oswald. a russian suitcase. mr. rankin. you have seen that before, have you? mrs. oswald. of course. mr. rankin. do you know whether he took exhibit to mexico? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. you don't know, or you don't think he did? mrs. oswald. i know that he did not take it. mr. rankin. do you know when he used exhibit ? mrs. oswald. i don't think that he would have used it. was this taken in lee's apartment? mr. rankin. we cannot tell you that, mrs. oswald. we don't know which place it was taken from. you have seen it amongst his things, though, have you not? mrs. oswald. no. i think these things were in ruth paine's garage. mr. rankin. you don't know whether it is his or mrs. paine's? mrs. oswald. that is my suitcase. mr. rankin. and did you use it to come from the soviet union? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. thorne. this is not lee's suitcase, then--this is your personal suitcase? mrs. oswald. yes. ours, or mine. mr. rankin. we offer in evidence exhibit . the chairman. do you need that? that is hers. she may want it. do you think we need it? very well. it may be admitted. (the article referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. thorne. exhibit is a humble oil and refining company courtesy map of the dallas-fort worth area. mr. rankin. i call your attention, mrs. oswald, to the markings in ink, in the area where the assassination took place. mrs. oswald. this map lee acquired after returning to irving. before that, he had another map. that doesn't tell me anything. i did not use this map. mr. rankin. did you ever see your husband use it? mrs. oswald. no. i think that this was in his apartment, where he lived. perhaps he used it there. mr. rankin. did you ever see him put those markings on it? mrs. oswald. no, i have never seen him use this specific map. possibly he marked this place, not because of what happened there, but because this was the place where he worked, i don't know. he had a habit to note down the addresses of all acquaintances where he worked. mr. rankin. can you tell whether the writing on the side of the map there is in your husband's handwriting? mrs. oswald. it doesn't look like his handwriting. (the document referred to was marked for identification as commission exhibit no. .) mr. thorne. exhibit purports to be some type of an official document in russian. mrs. oswald. that is my birth certificate. mr. rankin. do you know why it was issued at that date, rather than presumably the one that was issued when you were born? mrs. oswald. because mine was lost somewhere, and it was reissued. mr. rankin. did you have to go there to get it? mrs. oswald. no, simply write a letter. mr. rankin. and they mailed it to you? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. i offer that exhibit in evidence. the chairman. it may be admitted. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. thorne. exhibit seems to be an original instrument in russian. mrs. oswald. this is a copy of a birth certificate which a notary issues. mr. thorne. whose certificate? mrs. oswald. mine. mr. rankin. i offer in evidence exhibit . the chairman. it may be admitted. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. thorne. exhibit is a one-sheet document in russian. mrs. oswald. the same thing. mr. rankin. why did you have these other copies? mrs. oswald. these documents were needed for regularizing all the documents in connection with the trip abroad. mr. rankin. do you know why the date was rewritten from july to july on them? mrs. oswald. in which? mr. rankin. in the original. mrs. oswald. i didn't see that. it says july , . the certificate is issued july , . mr. krimer. the transcript shows th of july . may i explain it, sir? mr. rankin. you explain it, mr. krimer, and then ask her if you are explaining it correctly. mr. krimer. i have explained it correctly, and she says it is correct. this states she was born on july , but that an entry was made in the register about that on august , . this accounts for the change in the digit. and this was issued on july , . mr. rankin. i offer that in evidence. the chairman. that will be admitted. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. thorne. is a two-sheet, eight-page letter with an envelope. this is written in russian. mrs. oswald. the envelope is from sobolev, and the letter is from golovachev. i simply kept them together. mr. rankin. there is a reference in the last full paragraph of that letter, mrs. oswald, where it said, "by the way, marina, try to explain to paul that the basic idea of pagodzin's play 'a man with a rifle' is contained in words"--and then goes on. do you know what was meant by that? it says "now we do not have to fear a man with a rifle." who is paul? mrs. oswald. this is only that the word "rifle" scares you, but it is quite harmless. this is peter gregory, paul. he is also studying russian. and he had to make a report at the institute about pagodzin's play "man with a rifle". this play is about the revolution in russia, and there is a film. i helped him with it. mr. rankin. you are satisfied that has nothing to do with the assassination? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. i offer in evidence exhibit . the chairman. it may be admitted. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. thorne. exhibit contains two photographs. these are pictures of lee harvey oswald with a rifle and pistol. mrs. oswald. for me at first they appeared to be one and the same, at first glance. but they are different poses. mr. rankin. you took both of those pictures, did you, in exhibit ? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. and are those the pictures you took when you were out hanging up diapers, and your husband asked you to take the pictures of him? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. with the pistol and the rifle? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. we offer in evidence exhibit . the chairman. it may be admitted. (the documents referred to were marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. rankin. do you recall whether these pictures in exhibit were taken before or after the walker incident? mrs. oswald. before. mr. thorne. exhibit is an enlargement of one of these pictures--what purports to be an enlargement. mrs. oswald. yes, this is an enlargement of that photograph. mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, in exhibit , in one of the pictures your husband has a newspaper, it appears. mr. dulles. i think in both of them. mr. rankin. i want to correct that. in both he appears to have a newspaper. in one of them he has the newspaper in the right hand and in the other in the left hand. do you know what newspaper that is? mrs. oswald. it says there "militant." but i don't know what kind of a paper that is--whether it is communist, anti-communist. mr. rankin. do you recall how much earlier than the walker incident you took these photographs? mrs. oswald. about two weeks. mr. rankin. was the enlargement of one of those pictures, exhibit , made by you, or by someone else? mrs. oswald. no, i don't know who made the enlargement. mr. rankin. have you seen exhibit , the enlargement, before this? mrs. oswald. no. i have been shown an enlargement, but i don't know whether this is the one i have been shown. mr. rankin. who showed that to you? mrs. oswald. apart from mr. gopadze, somebody else showed me an enlargement. mr. rankin. does this appear to be like the enlargement that you saw? mrs. oswald. yes. i think it was specially enlarged for the investigation. mr. rankin. i offer in evidence exhibit no. . the chairman. it may be admitted. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. thorne. exhibit no. purports to be a clipping from a newspaper. it is a clipping of an advertisement, a mail coupon. mrs. oswald. i don't know what that is. mr. rankin. do you recognize the handwriting on it? mrs. oswald. lee's handwriting. mr. rankin. i offer in evidence exhibit . the chairman. it will be admitted. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. rankin. i call the commission's attention to the fact that this is the coupon under which it appears the rifle was ordered, showing an enclosed $ notation--"check for $ . , a. g. hidell, age , post office box , dallas, texas." and it is marked, "one--quantity. point st. w. inch barrel, . ," and underlined is . , and an arrow at that point. mr. thorne. exhibit is a camera contained within a leather case. mrs. oswald. this is a russian camera. mr. rankin. is that the camera you used to take the pictures you have referred to? mrs. oswald. i don't remember exactly whether it was an american camera or this. mr. rankin. but this was one of your cameras, or your husband's cameras? mrs. oswald. my husband's camera. mr. rankin. i offer in evidence exhibit . the chairman. it may be admitted. (the article referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. thorne. exhibit is a camera in a leather case. mr. rankin. have you ever seen that camera before? mrs. oswald. no. mr. dulles. is that a russian camera? mrs. oswald. no. (the article referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. thorne. exhibit is a flash attachment for some type of camera. it is an ansco flash attachment. mrs. oswald. i have never seen it. (the article referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. rankin. do you know what happened to the american camera that you referred to? mrs. oswald. i don't know. mr. rankin. was this ansco flash equipment an attachment for that camera? mrs. oswald. i have never seen it. it seems to me that it is new. mr. thorne. exhibit . mrs. oswald. this is the fateful rifle of lee oswald. mr. rankin. is that the scope that it had on it, as far as you know? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. i offer in evidence exhibit . the chairman. it may be admitted. (the article referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. thorne. exhibit apparently is a blanket. mr. rankin. have you seen that before, mrs. oswald? mrs. oswald. this is still from russia. june loved to play with that blanket. mr. rankin. was that the blanket that your husband used to cover up the rifle? mrs. oswald. yes. we didn't use this blanket as a cover. he used it for the rifle. mr. rankin. and it was the blanket that you saw and thought was covering the rifle in the garage at the paine's, is it? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. did he use it as a cover for the rifle at other places where you lived? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. i offer in evidence exhibit . the chairman. it may be admitted. (the article referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. rankin. did you say that june played with this blanket, exhibit ? mrs. oswald. yes. i would put that on the floor to make it softer--on a balcony, for example, when june was playing on it. mr. rankin. is that in this country or in russia? mrs. oswald. she didn't crawl yet in russia. mr. rankin. what balcony was that--what house? mrs. oswald. on neely street, in dallas. mr. thorne. exhibit is an envelope that contains a bullet. mr. rankin. have you ever seen bullets or shells like that that your husband had? mrs. oswald. i think lee's were smaller. mr. rankin. if that was the size for his gun, would that cause you to think it was the same? mrs. oswald. probably. mr. rankin. where did you see his? mrs. oswald. in new orleans, and on neely street. mr. rankin. in the box, or laying loose some place? mrs. oswald. in a box. mr. rankin. i offer in evidence exhibit . the chairman. it may be admitted. (the article referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. thorne. exhibit is some kraft paper, brown wrapping paper. mrs. oswald. it wasn't brown before. mr. rankin. did you ever see that before? mrs. oswald. the fbi questioned me about this paper, but i don't know--i have never seen it. mr. rankin. at one time it was kraft color, before they treated it to get fingerprints. did you ever see anything like that? mrs. oswald. everybody sees such paper. but i didn't see that with lee. mr. rankin. you have never seen anything like that around the house, then? mrs. oswald. no. we have wrapping paper around the house. mr. rankin. that exhibit is more than just wrapping paper. it was apparently made up into a sack or bag. mrs. oswald. i didn't see it. mr. rankin. did you ever see him make up a bag or sack or anything like that, to hold a rifle? mrs. oswald. no. (the article referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , for identification.) mr. thorne. exhibit is a pistol. mrs. oswald. lee oswald's. mr. rankin. you recognize that as a pistol of your husband? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. i offer in evidence exhibit . the chairman. it may be admitted. (the article referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. thorne. exhibit is a leather pistol holster. mrs. oswald. that is a holster for lee's pistol. mr. rankin. is exhibit the same holster that is in those pictures that you took? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. and the pistol is the same pistol as in those pictures? mrs. oswald. as much as i can tell. mr. rankin. at least they appear to be, as far as you can tell? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. and the rifle is the same, or appears to be, is it not? mrs. oswald. yes. the chairman. it may be admitted. (the article referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mr. thorne. exhibit is a small cardboard box containing two bullets, . caliber. mr. rankin. do you recognize those as appearing to be the size of the bullets that your husband had for the pistol? mrs. oswald. it is hard for me to tell, because i don't understand about this. i never looked at them, because i am afraid. mr. rankin. but you have seen bullets like that, have you, in your husband's apartment or rooming house, or in the neely apartment or at mrs. paine's? mrs. oswald. at mrs. paine's i never saw any shells. on neely street, perhaps it is similar--new orleans. it looks like it. if they fit lee's pistol, then they must be the right ones. mr. rankin. i offer in evidence exhibit . the chairman. admitted. (the article referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) the chairman. we will take a short recess. (brief recess.) the chairman. we will be in order, please. mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, would you step over with the interpreter to this desk and point out the different pieces of clothing as we ask you about it, please? do you know the shirt that lee oswald wore the morning that he left? mrs. oswald. i don't remember. what else interests you? what do you want? mr. rankin. can you tell us whether any of this clothing set out on this desk belonged to lee oswald? mrs. oswald. these are lee's shoes. mr. rankin. when you say the shoes, you pointed to exhibit ? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. this is a pair of shoes of which exhibit is a photograph. mrs. oswald. these are his bath slippers. mr. rankin. exhibit are his bath slippers? mrs. oswald. japanese bath slippers. these shoes i have never seen. mr. rankin. that is exhibit , you say those are shoes you have never seen? how about exhibit ? mrs. oswald. these are his, yes. these are all lee's shirts. mr. rankin. exhibits , ---- mrs. oswald. these are his pajamas. mr. rankin. exhibits , and are lee oswald's shirts, is that right? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. and exhibit is a pair of his pajamas? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. and exhibit --you recognize that? mrs. oswald. that is his shirt. mr. rankin. and exhibit ? is that one of his shirts? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. exhibit ? mrs. oswald. yes, also. why is it all torn? mr. rankin. we are advised it was when he was hurt, they cut into some of these. do you recall whether or not he was wearing exhibit--the shirt that i point to now, the morning of the d of november--exhibit ? mrs. oswald. yes, it was a dark shirt. mr. rankin. you think that was the one? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. i call your attention to exhibit . is that a pair of his pants? mrs. oswald. these are his work pants. mr. rankin. and ? mrs. oswald. also work pants. these are all work pants. mr. rankin. ? mrs. oswald. why were both of those cut? i don't understand. mr. rankin. i have not been informed, but i will try to find out for you. mrs. oswald. it is not necessary. mr. rankin. do you recall which of the pants he was wearing on the morning of november , ? mrs. oswald. i think the gray ones, but i am not sure, because it was dark in the room, and i paid no attention to what pants he put on. mr. rankin. by the gray ones, you are referring to what i point to as exhibit , is that right? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. can you tell us about exhibit , a sweater? mrs. oswald. that was my gift to lee, a sweater. mr. rankin. ? mrs. oswald. that is lee's shirt. mr. rankin. ? mrs. oswald. this is a pullover sweater. this is his pullover sweater. mr. rankin. ? mrs. oswald. that is lee's--an old shirt. mr. rankin. sort of a jacket? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. ? mrs. oswald. also. mr. rankin. do you recall which one of the sweaters or jackets he was wearing on the morning of november , ? mrs. oswald. i don't remember. mr. rankin. when was the last time that you saw this jacket, exhibit ? mrs. oswald. i don't remember. mr. rankin. do you remember seeing it on the morning of november , ? mrs. oswald. the thing is that i saw lee in the room, and i didn't see him getting dressed in the room. that is why it is difficult for me to say. but i told him to put on something warm on the way to work. mr. rankin. do you recall whether the jacket, exhibit , is something that he put on in your presence at any time that day? mrs. oswald. not in my presence. mr. rankin. and you didn't observe it on him at any time, then? mrs. oswald. no. mr. rankin. is it possible that exhibit was worn by him that morning without your knowing about it? mrs. oswald. quite possible. mr. rankin. now, at the time you saw him at the dallas jail, can you tell us what clothing of any that are on this desk he was wearing at that time? mrs. oswald. none of these. he had on a white t-shirt. what trousers he was wearing, i could not tell, because i only saw him through a window. mr. rankin. would you examine the collar on the shirt? mrs. oswald. this is lee's shirt. mr. rankin. it has a mark "brent long tail sanforized." mrs. oswald. yes, i know this shirt. i gave it to him. the sweater is also his. mr. rankin. do you recall any of these clothes that your husband was wearing when he came home thursday night, november , ? mrs. oswald. on thursday i think he wore this shirt. mr. rankin. is that exhibit ? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. do you remember anything else he was wearing at that time? mrs. oswald. it seems he had that jacket, also. mr. rankin. exhibit ? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. and the pants, exhibit ? mrs. oswald. yes. but i am not sure. this is as much as i can remember. mr. rankin. thank you. mr. thorne. i identify this photograph, which is marked exhibit as being a true photograph of the shirt displayed to mrs. oswald, and recognized by her as being a shirt that she gave to lee harvey oswald. mr. rankin. i offer all of the exhibits, nos. to , inclusive. the chairman. they may be admitted. (the articles referred to were marked commission exhibit nos. to , inclusive, and received in evidence.) mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, do you remember any information or documents under your control or in your possession which would relate to or shed any light on the matters we have been examining which you have not presented here? mrs. oswald. i have nothing else. everything has been taken from me. mr. rankin. some of the commissioners have a question or two, or a few questions. if you will permit them, they would like to address them to you. representative boggs. mrs. oswald, this question has already been asked you, but i would like to ask it again. i gather that you have reached the conclusion in your own mind that your husband killed president kennedy. mrs. oswald. regretfully, yes. representative boggs. during the weeks and months prior to the assassination--and i think this question has also been asked--did you ever at any time hear your late husband express any hostility towards president kennedy? mrs. oswald. no. representative boggs. what motive would you ascribe to your husband in killing president kennedy? mrs. oswald. as i saw the documents that were being read to me, i came to the conclusion that he wanted in any--by any means, good or bad, to get into history. but now that i have heard a part of the translation of some of the documents, i think that there was some political foundation to it, a foundation of which i am not aware. representative boggs. by that, do you mean that your husband acted in concert with someone else? mrs. oswald. no, only alone. representative boggs. you are convinced that his action was his action alone, that he was influenced by no one else? mrs. oswald. yes, i am convinced. representative boggs. did you consider your husband a communist? mrs. oswald. he told me when we were in new orleans that he was a communist, but i didn't believe him, because i said, "what kind of a communist are you if you don't like the communists in russia?" representative boggs. did he like the communists in the united states? mrs. oswald. he considered them to be on a higher level and more conscious than the communists in russia. representative boggs. did you consider your husband a normal man in the usual sense of the term? mrs. oswald. he was always a normal man, but where it concerned his ideas, and he did not introduce me to his ideas, i did not consider him normal. representative boggs. maybe i used the wrong terminology. did you consider him mentally sound? mrs. oswald. yes; he was smart and capable. only he did not use his capabilities in the proper direction. he was not deprived of reason--he was not a man deprived of reason. representative boggs. thank you, mr. chairman. thank you. the chairman. senator cooper, did you have any questions to ask? mrs. oswald. no one knows the truth, no one can read someone else's thoughts, as i could not read lee's thoughts. but that is only my opinion. senator cooper. mrs. oswald, some of the questions that i ask you you may have answered--because i have been out at times. i believe you have stated that your husband at times expressed opposition to or dislike of the united states or of its political or economic system, is that correct? mrs. oswald. as far as i know, he expressed more dissatisfaction with economic policy, because as to the political matters he did not enlighten me as to his political thoughts. senator cooper. did he ever suggest to you or to anyone in your presence that the economic system of the united states should be changed, and did he suggest any means for changing it? mrs. oswald. he never proposed that, but from his conversations it followed that it would be necessary to change it. but he didn't propose any methods. senator cooper. did he ever say to you or anyone in your presence that the system might be changed if officials were changed or authorities of our country were changed? mrs. oswald. no, he never said that to me. senator cooper. did he ever express to you any hostility towards any particular official of the united states? mrs. oswald. i know that he didn't like walker, but i don't know whether you could call him an official. senator cooper. may i ask if you ever heard anyone express to him hostility towards president kennedy? mrs. oswald. no, never. senator cooper. more specifically, i will ask--did you know mr. frazier? representative boggs. wesley frazier. mrs. oswald. oh, yes, that is the boy who took him to work. senator cooper. you never heard him or anyone else express to your husband any hostility towards president kennedy? mrs. oswald. no. senator cooper. mrs. paine? mrs. oswald. no. senator cooper. that is all i have. the chairman. mr. dulles, have you anything further you would like to ask? mr. dulles. mr. chief justice, i only have one question. mr. rankin has kindly asked several questions i had during the course of this hearing, these hearings the last days. apart from trying to achieve a place in history, can you think of any other motive or anything that your husband felt he would achieve by the act of assassinating the president? that he was trying to accomplish something? mrs. oswald. it is hard for me to say what he wanted to accomplish, because i don't understand him. the chairman. congressman ford, did you have anything further? representative ford. mrs. oswald after president kennedy was assassinated, your husband was apprehended and later questioned by a number of authorities. in the questioning he denied that he kept a rifle at mrs. paine's home. he denied shooting president kennedy. and he questioned the authenticity of the photographs that you took of him holding the rifle and the holster. now, despite these denials by your husband, you still believe lee oswald killed president kennedy? mrs. oswald. yes. representative ford. that is all. representative boggs. mr. chairman, just one or two other questions. the chairman. yes. representative boggs. mrs. oswald, when you lived in new orleans with your husband, and he was active in this alleged cuban committee, did you attend any meetings of any committees--was anyone else present? mrs. oswald. no, never. representative boggs. were there any members of the committee other than your husband? mrs. oswald. there was no one. there was no one. there was no organization in new orleans. only lee was there. representative boggs. one other question. did he also dislike russia when he was in russia? mrs. oswald. yes. representative boggs. thank you. the chairman. well, mrs. oswald, you have been a very cooperative witness. you have helped the commission. we are grateful to you for doing this. we realize that this has been a hard ordeal for you to go through. mrs. oswald. it was difficult to speak all the truth. the chairman. we hope you know that the questions we have asked you have--none of them have been from curiosity or to embarrass you, but only to report to the world what the truth is. now, after you leave here, you may have a copy of everything you have testified to. you may read it, and if there is anything that you think was not correctly recorded, or anything you would like to add to it, you may do so. mrs. oswald. i unfortunately--i cannot--since it will be in english. the chairman. your lawyer may read it for you, and if he points out something to you that you think you should have changed, you may feel free to do that. mrs. oswald. yes, he will read it. the chairman. and if in the future we should like to ask you some more questions about something that develops through the investigation, would you be willing to come back and talk to us again? mrs. oswald. yes. the chairman. we hope it won't be necessary to disturb you. but if it is, you would be willing to come, would you not? mrs. oswald. yes. the chairman. thank you very much. representative ford. mr. chairman--i would just like to suggest that if mrs. oswald does wish to revise any of her testimony, that this be called to the attention of the commission through her attorney, mr. thorne. the chairman. yes, of course. that is the proper procedure. now, mr. thorne, you have been very cooperative with the commission. we appreciate that cooperation. we hope that if anything new should come to your attention that would be helpful to the commission, you would feel free to communicate with us. mr. thorne. certainly, mr. chairman. the chairman. do you care to say anything at this time? mr. thorne. mr. chairman, if i may, i would like to make a closing statement. the chairman. yes. and may i say, also, if you have any questions you would like to ask mrs. oswald before you make your statement, you may do that. mr. thorne. there are none. representative boggs. mr. chairman, i would just like to say mr. thorne has been very helpful. mr. thorne. during the noon recess, mrs. oswald made four requests of me to make before this commission. you have anticipated several of them, but i think there are one or two that need to be covered. to begin with, she wanted me to express to you, mr. chairman, and members of your commission, her extreme gratitude to you for the consideration and kindness that has been shown to her in these proceedings. she feels you have certainly gone out of your way to make her comfortable, and she has been comfortable, in spite of the sad and tragic events we have been discussing. point no. , she did want to make it quite clear to the commission that in the event her testimony was needed for rebuttal or whatever on down the line, she would be available, and at your wish would come to washington as convenient for you when it was again convenient. the third point you have already covered. she did request that she be given a copy of these proceedings, which i told her she would receive, and, of course, copies of the exhibits would be attached for her identification and examination. mrs. oswald. and copies of some of the letters? mr. thorne. this will all be attached as exhibits. and the final point was this. she has been, as you know, under protective custody of the secret service from shortly after the assassination. she has been most grateful for this protection. the secret service have shown her every courtesy, as everyone has in this matter. she is extremely grateful for this protection they have given her. i haven't had personally enough time to think this thing out myself. i don't know. it is her request, however, that, at this point she feels the protection is no longer necessary. she feels that at this time she can walk among people with her head held high. she has nothing to hide. she is not afraid. she feels that the secret service has performed a noble service to her. and this is not meant by way of saying for some action on their part she wants to get rid of them. i have noticed that since we have been in washington she resents being guided. she feels she can find her way by herself. and, if the commission would give this matter consideration--we don't know whom to go to. i haven't thought about it. i don't know who has suggested the secret service continue protecting her. it is a matter, of course, that ought to be considered. but it is her request that as soon as it is practical, she would like to be a free agent and out of the confines of this protection. i point out to you gentlemen that she is living, as you well know, with mr. and mrs. martin. they have a rather modest home. three bedrooms. it has a den and it has a combination living and dining room. the house is not extremely large, but there are always two men in the house. this does burden the family. this is not a request on the part of the martins. they welcome this protection. this is something she thinks in terms of herself that she does not want to feel that she is being held back. is that correct? mrs. oswald. what i wanted to say, mr. thorne has said. mr. thorne. for my own part, gentlemen, thank you. the chairman. mr. thorne, we can understand mrs. oswald's desire to live a perfectly normal life with her children. whatever has been done, as you recognize, has been done for her protection, and for her help during these terrible days that she has been going through. but she may feel from this moment on that she is under no protection, except what she might ask for. and so you are perfectly free, mrs. oswald, to live your normal life without any interference from anyone. and should anyone interfere with you, i hope you would call it to the attention of the commission. mrs. oswald. thank you very much. mr. thorne. mr. chairman, may i add one point, please? for our purposes, i would appreciate it if this matter of removal, assuming that it is to be removed shortly, is kept secret, also. i would prefer generally for the public to feel that--at least temporarily--that this protection is available. i don't feel any qualms myself. i don't feel there are any problems. but i think the matter of mrs. marguerite oswald has come up. there may be some problem from some sources. the chairman. mr. thorne, i think the correct answer to that would be--and it would be the answer we would give--that mrs. oswald, in the future, will be given such assistance and only such assistance as she asks for. mr. thorne. thank you very much, sir. the chairman. i want to say also before the session adjourns that we are indebted to mr. krimer for the manner in which he has interpreted. next to the witness, i am sure he has had the hardest position in this whole hearing. and we appreciate the manner in which he has done it. mr. krimer. thank you very much, sir. mrs. oswald. he is a very good interpreter. the chairman. very well. if there is nothing further to come before the session, we will adjourn. mrs. oswald. i am very grateful to all of you. i didn't think among americans i would find so many friends. the chairman. you have friends here. mrs. oswald. thank you. (whereupon, at : p.m., the president's commission recessed.) _monday, february , _ testimony of mrs. marguerite oswald the president's commission met at a.m. on february , , at maryland avenue ne., washington, d.c. present were chief justice earl warren, chairman: senator richard b. russell, representative hale boggs, representative gerald r. ford, and allen w. dulles, members. also present were j. lee rankin, general counsel; wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel; john f. doyle, attorney for mrs. marguerite oswald; and leon jaworski, special counsel to the attorney general of texas. the chairman. the commission will come to order. let the record show that senator russell and i are present, and we convened today for the purpose of taking the testimony of mrs. oswald. mrs. oswald, would you rise and be sworn, please? do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god, throughout this proceeding? mrs. oswald. i do--so help me god. the chairman. you may be seated. now, mrs. oswald, you are here represented by an attorney, are you? mrs. oswald. yes, sir; mr. doyle is representing me. the chairman. mr. doyle is representing you. mr. doyle was appointed, was he not, at your request? mrs. oswald. yes, i asked to be represented by counsel. the chairman. yes. and the record may show that mr. doyle was appointed to represent her at the request of mrs. oswald by the president of the bar association of the district of columbia, mr. pratt. that is correct, is it not, mr. doyle? mr. doyle. it is, sir. the chairman. mrs. oswald, you are appearing voluntarily before the commission, are you not? mrs. oswald. yes, voluntarily. the chairman. you requested to do so. in order that you may have a full opportunity to testify in your own manner, and tell us everything that you know, and particularly because we do not know what you know, i am going to ask you if you would like first, in your own way, and in your own time, to tell us everything you have concerning this case. you would like to do that, would you? mrs. oswald. yes, chief justice warren. i would like to very much. however, there are three things that i have asked that should be brought before the council, three requests of mine. one has already been granted--that is the counsel, mr. doyle. and i do appreciate that fact. i have stated publicly that i believe in the american way of life and justice for all men, which is our american way of life. my son, lee harvey oswald, was tried and convicted within a few hours time, without benefit of counsel. and so i am appealing to the board that my son, lee harvey oswald, be represented by counsel. i am being represented by counsel. my daughter-in-law marina was represented by counsel. and i understand that all other witnesses will have the privilege of being represented by counsel. however, the main object of the commission is lee harvey oswald, in the murder of president kennedy. so i strongly believe that lee should be represented by counsel. now, my reasons for wanting this done this way is, i will state, that marina has testified. marina has testified, according to the papers--and i am assuming that this is correct--that lee wanted to live in russia and cuba, and that is why he went to mexico. i happen to know differently--because marina has told me the first day i was with her, "mama, i write to russian consul. i want go back to russia. i like america. but lee no get work." so you see, had a counsel been there in behalf of my son, when marina said that--it doesn't have to be a court trial or a cross-examination. all i am asking is that this man sit quietly, and when he knows of different facts, then he could say, "well, mrs. oswald, isn't it true that you wrote the russian consul yourself, wanting to go back to russia?" and in this way, gentlemen, i believe you would have both sides and a true picture. i cannot see how you can come to a true conclusion by taking individual testimony. now, i, myself, am here today to testify. i have been sworn in. but that doesn't mean that i can tell the whole story. i may forget something. and the counsel would know. we have investigators all over the country, the reporters are interested, the public. i have over , letters, people expressing their opinion of the way this case is being handled. and, believe me, gentlemen, they are not satisfied. i can produce these documents for you. they think, like i think, that the american way of life, both sides should be heard. i don't think that seven men of this commission can come to a true conclusion. what it will be, it will be an analysis of what the fbi and the secret service and the dallas police have--mainly, speculation and opinion of other people. now, mr. lane has affidavits, i understand, from the same witnesses that have made statements to the dallas police, which are contrary to those particular statements. i implore you--i implore you, in the name of justice, to let my son, lee harvey oswald, who is accused of assassinating the president, and i, the mother of this man, who is the accused's mother, be represented by counsel. we have information pertinent to this case. my daughter-in-law is the only one who has testified. the things that came out in the paper--i know, i have documents. i am not asking you to believe me as a mother. i can prove the statements that i say. and i believe in this way you will have a true picture, and a much better picture, because as you are going along you will be having both sides, and won't have to wait to analyze the situation in the end, as the testimony is being given by each individual, right then and there--you will have the other party's testimony. now, there is another---- the chairman. before you leave that, mrs. oswald, may i say to you, first, that the commission is not here to prosecute your dead son. it is not here and it was not established to prosecute anyone. it is the purpose and the province of the commission to obtain all the facts that it can obtain, and then make an impartial report--not as a prosecutor, but as an impartial commission--on the manner in which the president came to his death. we are trying to recognize the individual rights of all persons who are called before the commission, to let them have their lawyers, and let their lawyers have an opportunity to examine them, as well as the commission. you may be sure that if mr. lane has any evidence of his own knowledge, or has any accumulation of affidavits from others, to the effect--to any effect, concerning this trial, that he will have an opportunity to come here, just as you are here, in order to present those to the commission. but so far as his being here at all times before the commission to cross-examine or to be present when all witnesses are testifying--that is not in accordance with the procedures of the commission. but i assure you that if mr. lane has any evidence of any kind bearing upon the assassination of the president, he will be accorded the same opportunity that you have to come here and present them, and we will give him an opportunity in his own way to tell his story, and present his own evidence. and should he want counsel, he may have counsel, also. now, you may go to your second point. mrs. oswald. no, i am not finished with my first, please. i appreciate and i understand exactly what you have told me, chief justice warren. but there is one thing--and, of course, i will have to accept your decision, and will be most happy to have mr. lane present his testimony the way you have suggested. however, i am not in agreement with you. one point i want to make clear. we do not know the questions that you are asking of myself or marina or the other witnesses. and i contend that you cannot ask them the pertinent questions because you don't know what i know, and what mr. lane knows. and so you will still have an analysis in the long run, a conclusion. i am going to go back to marina. as i say, marina made her statements---- the chairman. on that particular thing, may i say this: it is true that we don't know how to examine you at the present time because we don't know what you have to present to this commission. but we are affording you the opportunity before we ask you any questions to tell your story, in your own way. then we should know what questions we want to ask of you. mrs. oswald. yes, sir; i understand that thoroughly. but i am a human being, going through a life story from childhood, and i may forget something that my counsel would know. and that applies to witnesses. they may forget to testify something that my counsel has facts on. i will have to accept your verdict, but i don't do it graciously. i want that for record. the chairman. yes. well, that is all right, mrs. oswald. you may state that for the record. mrs. oswald. i have documents, and i would like to ask, please--i will not leave any documents out of my hand. i carry them with me wherever i go. even mr. doyle has been told that the documents stay with me. i have had documents stolen from me. i have had newspaper clippings stolen from me in my home, by the secret service. i make the statement perfectly plain. and so the documents stay with me. now, these are originals. i want, and you will want, copies of every original i have, and i will be more than happy to let you have them. however, i want to be present when these copies are made and the original returned to me. i will under no circumstances let anyone have my originals for an hour or two, and then return them to me--if i am making myself plain. i would like to request that, please. the chairman. we will accommodate you in that respect. mrs. oswald. then i have one other stipulation or request. when i tell my story, i will be including people in my story that possibly you don't know of. i request that i have the privilege, through you, of course, to subpena these people that are in connection with the story that i tell, if you do not have the names already. and i feel sure that i have some information that you don't know about, and there are some people involved. i also request that after my testimony, that marina oswald will be subpenaed--not subpenaed but will then testify again, if you see fit. and i believe that i have contrary testimony to her testimony that would make it necessary for her to be recalled. i ask that that be granted. the chairman. well, mrs. oswald, of course you have no power of subpena, and we have no power to give you the power of subpena. but you may be sure that if your evidence produces anything that is critical to this investigation, that we will pursue it to the end, in order to determine the weight of the testimony for our final report. you may be sure of that. mrs. oswald. i appreciate that. the chairman. but as to how we do it, or when we do it, you will just have to leave that to the commission. mrs. oswald. you will give me the assurance that these people i name, regardless of title--i am liable to name some very important people---- the chairman. no, we cannot give you any assurance, because we don't know---- mrs. oswald. i see no reason, then, for my testimony. the chairman. well, mrs. oswald--you cannot commit us to subpenaing anybody. we don't know. you are talking to us, and we are in the dark. you cannot commit this commission to doing something that might be improper, it might not even be helpful in any way, shape, or form. the commission will be reasonable in every respect. we have no desire to protect anyone. we have no desire to injure you or anyone else in this matter. and certainly you ought to have some confidence in a commission that is appointed by the president, and not try to tie our hands in a way that would be contrary to the manner in which commissions normally proceed. mrs. oswald. now, mr. warren, you made a statement that you in no way--i cannot quote your words--intimidate me. but you did not include my son. my son is being accused of the murder of president kennedy. and i think that my son should be considered in this. he is dead. but we can show cause that my son is not the assassin of president kennedy. and so i would like my son--he is the main object of the presidential commission, is he not, sir? the chairman. no, no, he is not, mrs. oswald. the purpose of this commission is to determine what the facts are in the assassination of president kennedy. it is not an accusation against your son. there was an accusation against your son in the texas courts. that is an entirely different proceeding. we are here to do justice and be fair to everyone concerned in this matter. and i assure you that that is our main and our only purpose in serving on this commission. none of us cherish this responsibility. mrs. oswald. i am sure, sir. the chairman. and the only satisfaction we can derive from it is to be fair to all concerned. and i assure you that is our objective in the matter. mrs. oswald. i do not mean to imply that this commission will not be fair. i know about the men on the commission. and they are all very fine men, including yourself, chief justice warren. if i have implied that, i will--will now say i do not imply. but i do state a fact that i do not think that you can come to a true conclusion. i want that for record. now, i am going to produce--and this will be a fact--and this is on the basis---- the chairman. now, we have finished the three things that you are talking about, and we are going to your testimony? mrs. oswald. this is in connection with this, chief justice warren. and i think it is very important to present a picture. and then if you allow me these few minutes, i will be through. is that satisfactory, sir? the chairman. yes, go right ahead. mrs. oswald. now, i believe you mentioned that you would not have the power or give me the power to subpena them. but if i could produce the facts in my story, then i believe we should have these people called. now, here is an article in the washington paper--and the date happens to be torn off, but i can get it--that senator john g. tower had made. and i have outlined here---- the chairman. i wonder, mrs. oswald--before we get into any details of this kind, let's settle this situation as to whether the commission will say to you now that it will subpena anyone you ask. i must say to you that you cannot put that burden on the commission. the commission will have to exercise its own discretion as to who it subpenas and when. mr. doyle. mr. chief justice, may i say something? i was wondering if whether or not what mrs. oswald is addressing respectfully to the commission is her confidence that if in the course of her own testimony and the actual facts that she is producing, she expresses confidence that if those facts recommend the subpena of additional witnesses, or the recall of others, she expresses her confidence that that would be done, if the facts she outlines so require. the chairman. she may be very sure of that, as i tried to tell her. but the only thing--i would not want mrs. oswald to leave here and say, "i gave the commission a list of witnesses and they did not call all of them." now, that is a matter that will have to be in the province of the commission, and not in the province of a witness. and i say that without any combative--not in a combative spirit. because, as your counsel states, i think we are not far apart on it, mrs. oswald. mrs. oswald. no. and i appreciate the fact---- the chairman. but fairness will have to judge our actions. and we propose to be fair. mrs. oswald. now, i guess i am a very stubborn person. i am a very aggressive person, as you know by now. i would like--this would be just minutes, and it would bring a point, and then i would be through, if i may. the chairman. very well. mrs. oswald. senator towner has dates here, and the main part of the article is that he had received a letter from the state department. now, i would like--i have information from the state department, i have documents from the state department which is contrary to the dates and contrary to senator tower's public statement. and i would like to have the letter that he has from the state department, and the name of the man that wrote it, because it is contrary to what i have. he could have been, to use an american slang, shooting his mouth off, because he said if he went to russia let him stay there, i would not help him--is what he said. but then again he may have this very important letter from this man in the state department, which is incorrect, from what i have. now, he claims--and if you would like to read that--and that is what i was trying to bring out. the chairman. i think you will have to leave that to the wisdom of the commission and its sense of fair play, and what is necessary, all facts considered. mrs. oswald. well, i have had my say, gentlemen, and i will most graciously continue. however. i am not too happy that i will not have counsel for my son, because i believe my son would also be entitled to counsel. the chairman. very well, you may continue. mrs. oswald. now, i will start---- the chairman. mrs. oswald, may i introduce congressman ford, also a member of the commission. now, mrs. oswald--mr. lee rankin will be in charge of the hearing from this point on. he is our general counsel, as you know. mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, will you proceed to produce the papers and tell us about them, and then i will ask the commission after we get them, to permit us to substitute copies, and in accordance with your request we will let you be present at the time we make the photostats. the chairman. you may start to tell your story in your own way. mrs. oswald. i have three different stories. i understand from mr. rankin's letter that my life is to be told from the very start, and so is lee's life, from the very start. so which will i start first? i believe it would be easier for me and of more benefit to the counsel if i would continue with one life, the whole story, and then continue with the--whichever way you would suggest i do it. mr. rankin. if you could start out and tell us within the period that lee oswald returned from the soviet union on, whatever you know about it, in your own way, and then we will go back to the other matters later. is that all right? mrs. oswald. yes, sir--anything is just fine. i am willing to help in any way possible. i wanted to state it clearly in the beginning. i received a speedletter from the state department stating that lee would leave moscow, and how he would leave and arrive in new york--on june , . i was on a case in crowell, tex. i am a practical nurse. and i was taking care of a very elderly woman, whose daughter lived in fort worth, tex. so i was not able to leave and meet lee. robert, his brother, met him, and lee went to robert's home. approximately about a week later--i could not stand it any more--i called the daughter and had her come to take care of her mother, and took days off, and went to fort worth to see lee and marina. marina is a beautiful girl. and i said to lee, "marina, she doesn't look russian. she is beautiful." he says, "of course not. that is why i married her, because she looks like an american girl." i asked her where he had met her, and he said he met her at a social function, a community function. i said, "you know, lee, i am getting ready--i was getting ready to write a book on your so-called defection. "i had researched it and came to washington in , and, by the way, asked to see president kennedy, because i had a lot of extenuating circumstances at the time because of the defection." he said, "mother, you are not going to write a book." i said, "lee, don't tell me what to do. i cannot write the book now, because, honey, you are alive and back." but, at the time, i had no way of knowing whether my son was living or dead, and i planned to write the book. "but don't tell me what to do. it has nothing to do with you and marina. it is my life, because of your defection." he said, "mother, i tell you you are not to write the book. they could kill her and her family." that was in the presence of my son robert oswald and his wife. mr. rankin. can you tell us about what date that was? mrs. oswald. let's see. lee arrived in new york on june , and--now, i have a letter stating, from lee, that he is arriving in new york on june th. however, he plans to go to washington for a day or two. so i have no way of knowing, mr. rankin, whether he came straight from new york to my son's home, or if he stayed in new york and came to washington a few days. but i have the letter stating that. but i have no way of knowing. mr. rankin. was this conversation within about a week of the time that he came back? mrs. oswald. yes, approximately. that is correct. so i stayed in fort worth or days. i did not live at robert's home. i rented a motel. in fact, the lady of the mother i was taking care of paid my motel expenses while i was in fort worth. but i went there every day. while i was there--marina is a pharmacist. i have a medical book, and lee was saying that he was losing his hair, and how he had become bald, because of the cold weather in texas. so i got the medical book, looking up baldness, and the treatment for baldness, and marina came by and she read the prescriptions. so i said, "lee, she reads english," and he said, "mother, that is latin, of course, that is universal." so because it was a medical conversation, lee said he had an operation while in the soviet union on his throat. i am sorry--but all of the confusion of myself being there and the daughter-in-law, the russian girl--that was never gone into. that is all i know. but that was also said in the presence of my son robert--that he had an operation on his throat while in the soviet union. mr. rankin. did he say when that was? mrs. oswald. no, sir; that was all that was said. as i say, with all the confusion of marina, we were so thrilled with marina, with the children and all, there was quite a bit of confusion. now, i left, and i went back to crowell on my job. while i was in robert's home, lee immediately was out job-hunting. and i felt very bad about that, because they had come , miles by ship, by plane, and by train, which was an awfully hard trip with a young baby, and i thought he should at least have a week or two before he would look for work. but i want you to know that immediately lee was out looking for work. and this is the time that lee had gone to the public stenographer, made the statement that he was writing a book. you probably have that information. it was highly publicized. i, myself, gave him the $ that he gave the public stenographer. i bought marina clothes, and brought clothes to her while at my daughter-in-law's house, bought diapers for the baby. and marina had more clothes when she arrived in the states than i now have. so what i am trying to state is as we go further into the story, it has been stated that my son neglected marina, and that she didn't have any clothes. the russian people have stated that all throughout texas in the papers. and that is not true. i happen to know, because i, myself, bought marina three dresses. and my daughter-in-law bought dresses, and my daughter-in-law's sister, which i would like to have as a witness, bought clothes for marina. so there is this conflicting testimony. mr. rankin. what daughter-in-law was that? mrs. oswald. robert's wife. and robert's wife's sister, who is a schoolteacher, bought clothes for marina. mr. rankin. is she married? mrs. oswald. no. she is a schoolteacher. she is single. so that story there is incorrect. so then i went back to crowell, tex., and i was not satisfied in my mind because the way they lived. they only had a two-bedroom house. as you know. robert has two children. and there was another couple with another child. so lee immediately began looking for work. so i decided that i would quit this job and help the children all i could. so i did. i gave notice. and i came to fort worth, and i rented an apartment at the rotary apartments, which is on west th and summit. and lee and marina then came to live with me. mr. rankin. how long did they stay at robert's? mrs. oswald. they stayed at robert's approximately or weeks, sir. so then they came to live with me. while there, i said to lee--i am ahead of my story. lee and marina had sent me wonderful gifts, and i have the gifts, from russia. a box of tea, very fine tea, a russian scarf, pure linen napkins, embroidered with my initial, a box of candy for christmas that has a russian santa claus on it. i said to lee. "lee, i want to know one thing. why is it you decided to return back to the united states when you had a job in russia, and as far as i know you seemed to be pretty well off, because of the gifts that you have sent me. and you are married to a russian girl, and she would be better off in her homeland than here. i want to know." he said, "mother, not even marina knows why i have returned to the united states." and that is all the information i ever got out of my son. "not even marina knows why i have returned to the united states." mr. rankin. how did you get along when you were there together with marina and your son? mrs. oswald. well, that was a very happy month, mr. rankin. marina was very happy. she had the best home, i believe, that she had ever had. and lee--i was taking lee out to work every morning, looking for work, through the unemployment commission, and ads in the paper. and i was taking care of the baby and doing the cooking, and marina was helping clean up. and she would wash the dishes. and lee and marina would go for long walks every afternoon, and i would take care of the baby. marina would sing around the house, and watch the television and comment on different programs, programs that she had seen in russia. she knew--there was a picture with gregory peck, and she said, "mama, i know gregory peck." and she was singing santa lucia. and here again in my stupidity, i said to lee, "lee, she knows english, she is singing santa lucia." he said, "mother, that is an international song." marina was very happy, and i was very happy to have the children. and lee desperately looked for work. he was offered several good jobs from the state employment office of texas. one in particular, i remember he said that he regretted not getting the job, but they told him because his wife was not an american citizen, that they would not be able to hire him. he met obstacles all the way. this one particular woman at the texas employment agency took an interest in lee and went out all the way to give lee clues for jobs. and i, myself, took lee job-hunting every day. and it is through the employment office that he became employed weeks later, after he was in my home, by the leslie manufacturing co. in fort worth, which is a sheetmetal place. mr. rankin. now, while marina was living with you there, and your son, and the little baby---- mrs. oswald. june. mr. rankin. did you talk to marina, and did she speak english to you? mrs. oswald. yes, she spoke english, mr. rankin. like she would say--and we used the dictionary when she didn't understand. she would say--i would say, "marina, you now nurse your baby." "yes, mama. the time." or "no time." with motions--"no time. mama." she spoke english. mr. rankin. what i would like to find out for the commission, if we can, in regard to speaking english, did you think she was able to talk english fluently, or did you think she was in the process of learning it? mrs. oswald. she was in the process of learning. but she understood more than she could talk. and i have a letter from lee stating that marina also speaks and understands french, that she had learned at grammar school. mr. rankin. did you know french? mrs. oswald. no, sir. mr. rankin. so you could not tell? mrs. oswald. i could not tell. and i didn't think a thing of it. and, of course. marina and lee spoke russian all the time, even in front of me. and you asked about this time--it was a very happy time. they would sit at the table. they were playing a game, and i said to lee, "what is it you are doing?" because they were always talking in russian. "mother, we are playing a game which is similar to american tic-tac-toe." and they also taught each other. they had books. they are both children--very intelligent and studious. lee was teaching marina english, and marina was teaching him some things that he wanted to know about russia, in my home. mr. rankin. now, you were saying that he got this job at the leslie manufacturing co. mrs. oswald. yes, sir. and then his first pay--he kept his first pay. and then the second pay, he rented the home on mercedes street, which is the south side, and approximately blocks from where i lived at the rotary apartment, and approximately blocks from where he was to work. lee had no car, and lee walked to and back from work, which helped to save money. now, you must understand that this couple had no money, and had nothing. i gave them some dishes, and some silverware, and just a few little things that i could help out with. but lee did have the first week's pay. and then the second week's pay. and he rented this home which was $ . a month. it was a nice little one-bedroom furnished duplex, in a nice neighborhood, convenient to his work. but then that leaves the boy broke. i brought food into the house. i never like to talk about the other members of the family, because to me that is speculation. but i know that robert brought food, also, in the house. and they were not in want. marina nursed june. now, it has been stated in the paper that the russian friends have gone into the home and they are talking about this home, and found that they were in desperate straits, that there was no food in the house, and no milk for the baby. i say marina nursed the baby. they may have walked into this home, where maybe they didn't have at that particular time any milk in the box. maybe lee was going to bring groceries home. but i know they were not in destitute circumstances in that respect. they had no money and didn't have anything. i brought groceries, and i brought a roll of scotch toweling. i had bought two packs and i gave them one. and the next day when i went by, the scotch toweling was in the kitchen, on a coat hanger, with a nail. and i think that is real nice, a young couple that doesn't have any money, that they can use their imagination, and put up the scotch toweling to use on a coat hanger. they are just starting married life in a new country. and they have no money. but here is the point. the russian friends, who were established, and had cars and fine homes, could not see this russian girl doing without. they are the ones that interfered. they are the ones that interfered, and were not happy the way this russian girl--and within a short time, then, this russian girl had a playpen, had a sewing machine, had a baby bed, and a taylor tot. and this all came out in the paper--that they supplied this to the girl, because she was in need of these things. i say it is not necessary for a young couple to have a playpen for a baby. we have millions and millions of american couples in the united states that cannot afford playpens for the children. i, myself, have been in that position. so i think those things were immaterial. the point i am trying to bring out is that these russian friends have interfered in their lives, and thought that the russian girl should have more than necessary. and my son could not supply these things at that particular time. he was just starting to work. this, to me, is very strong in my mind, that there are a lot of russian friends that were made immediately, that have interfered and have publicly stated--a circle of friends, approximately eight or nine, that would not give their names in the paper, they were interviewed by mr. tinsley of the star telegram--that has downed lee for every way possible. so these are the russian friends who are established with cars, and didn't think that the russian girl was getting a good break in america. mr. rankin. were there any differences between you and lee oswald or marina while they were in your home? did you have any quarrels? mrs. oswald. no, sir, no, sir, none at all. now, there was one thing. and i will point out the character of my son, and what i am saying about the playpen and so on. now, this was all done within a few weeks time. they moved there--they left my home in july, and they moved there in august, and then they moved to dallas in october. so it was in this period of time that all these things were accumulated from russian friends. and no man likes other people giving--interfering in his way of living, and giving all these things to his wife that he himself cannot supply. this is a human trait, i would say. now, i want to bring this story up. i could not afford to buy a bed for my grandchild, because i have worked prior to this for nothing. the job that i had quit i was making $ a week, gentlemen--a -hour live-in job. the jobs prior to this i worked for $ a week, days a week, a live-in job. because of lee's so-called defection, and my accident, the way i was treated, left destitute, without any medical or compensation, i decided to devote my life to humanity, and i became a practical nurse. and i have worked for $ a week, living in the place. so i had no money, i had $ saved, when i came to fort worth, and that is what i rented the house with, and brought the food with. so then that leaves me broke. so i gave up a job in order to help this girl. so to get back now to the home, mr. rankin--we had no quarrels. this month was beautiful. marina was very happy. i had the car and the television, and we went around. as i say, they were free to go and come like they want. they would take long walks. if you are not familiar with fort worth, tex., from the rotary apartment to leonard brothers is approximately miles, and they used to walk there, and they came home--marina came home with a cancan petticoat and some hose that lee bought here with a few dollars that robert and i had given him--he spent on his wife. so that was a very happy time. now, when they lived in the home on mercedes street that he rented, i was employed as an ob, a nurse, in fort worth, tex., at an ob's salary. and that salary, gentlemen, will astonish you. i worked, lived in, for $ a day, hours duty. on an ob case--i am very busy with the baby all day long because people are coming in and out, giving presents and so on. i have a o'clock feeding for the baby. and it is approximately o'clock before i am through and in bed. the baby is up again at o'clock. it is approximately : before i am through again with the baby. the baby is up again at : . and it is approximately--then my day starts. i am stressing the point that i worked for $ a day during all that, a $ a day job. so that is days a week, $ . now, this is the first time i have had a nurse's salary, i want you to understand. so with my first pay, i bought marina clothes, i bought the baby clothes, and i brought food into this home. i went all out for marina. i just love her, and was just thrilled to death with her. and i bought a highchair. i could not afford a bed, because i didn't have enough money to buy the bed. so that is why i bought the clothes and things of that sort. but i bought the baby a highchair. mr. rankin. how did marina treat you then? mrs. oswald. fine. but then marina was not satisfied with the things that i bought her. as you see, the way i am properly dressed--i don't say i mean to be the height of fashion, but i have--before becoming a nurse i was in the business world, and i have been a manager in the merchandise field. so i do know clothes. and i bought her some shorts. and she wanted short shorts, like the americans. she pictured america in her mind evidently. and i bought her a little longer shorts. and "i no like, mama." i said, "marina, you are a married woman and it is proper for you to have a little longer shorts than the younger girls." "no, mama." and i will stress this--that marina was never too happy--"no, mama, no nice, no, mama, no this." that was perfectly all right. i thought she didn't understand our ways. i didn't feel badly about it. i am going to get back to the highchair, to give you a picture of my son. i bought the highchair and brought it over there, and lee was not at home. and marina didn't know what a highchair was. and she told me in russian. i said, "how do they feed babies in russia?" by this time, june was or months old, just getting ready to sit up. "we put baby on lap, mama, and baby eat on lap." and so a highchair to me, i think, was new to marina. so approximately or days later i go over there and lee says to me, "now, mother, i want you to understand right here and now--i want you to stop giving all these gifts to me and my wife. i want to give marina whatever is necessary, the best i can do. i want you to keep your money and take care of yourself, because today or tomorrow you take sick, and you spend all your money on us, i will have to take care of you." which makes very good sense. but he strongly put me in my place about buying things for his wife that he himself could not buy. mr. rankin. what did you say to that? mrs. oswald. i agreed with him. and i said--the shock of it--i realize what a mother-in-law i was in interfering. and, of course, that is part that we mothers-in-law do unconsciously. we try to help out our children, and in a way we are interfering in their life. they would rather have their own way of doing things. and i realize that i had interfered, and the boy wanted to take care of his wife. so no more was said about it. i go into many homes, being a nurse, and i see this problem also, where the mothers and mothers-in-law bring things, and the men strongly object to it--they would rather do without, and have their wife do without, and they themselves be the master of the home. so then i realized i was being a foolish mother-in-law, and that he was perfectly right. i should save my money and take care of myself. he had a wife and baby to take care of. if i didn't have any money, he might have to take care of me. so i agreed with that. mr. rankin. did marina say anything about that? mrs. oswald. well, no, marina didn't know--unless she understood the english part. i have no way of knowing, you see. mr. rankin. all right. tell us what happened after that, then. mrs. oswald. now, let me think just a minute. this, gentlemen, is very emotional to me, because it is a humanitarian side that i am trying to bring out. material things are involved to me that are of no consequence. and i am trying to point out the fact that these russian people seemed to think that the russian girl should have material things. and all through my story, i can prove things that have happened of this nature. yes--i will continue. i was on the ob case for very wealthy people. i then became a nurse and by word of mouth i had worked in the finest homes in fort worth at this salary. i have worked for ammon carter, jr., who is the owner of the star telegram. i have worked in his home. i have worked for dr. ross seven weeks in his home. i have worked for mayor vandergriff. i took care of his last baby in his home. and i can go on and on. so i have been employed in over homes at this salary. so i know the difference of working in very poor homes, people on welfare, that i worked in, and then working in the rich homes. so i have experience, gentlemen, is what i am trying to say. so i mentioned to mrs. rosenthal that lee and marina didn't have a baby bed, and lee didn't have work clothes. he had had his suits from the united states yet with him when he went to russia. but he needed work clothes since he got this job. she said, "mrs. oswald, what build is he?" and i told her. and he was about the same build as her husband. so she got out a lot of work clothes that her husband didn't want. however, she asked me $ for pairs of used pants. and i would not buy--give her $ . here is a very wealthy woman, and she knows the story. and she knows that i have no money. and yet she expects me to pay for his used clothing. and so i have this principle about me. and i did not buy the used clothing, the clothing for lee. now, lee is having a birthday, which is october th. and this is approximately the th or th of october. now, this sunday, october th, i went--this is very important, gentleman--i went to this home and i was there--i asked to get off an hour or two to see the children, from this ob case at the rosenthals. i went to see my son and daughter-in-law, and they were nicely dressed. and while there, about minutes, a young couple came into the home, approximately the same age as marina and lee, and they had a little boy who i would say was about or months older than june. the woman put the little boy in the playpen with june, and june went to touch him, and marina got up and said, "oh, no, hurt baby." she spoke in english. so i said, "do you speak russian?" to this couple. and they said, "no, we don't. we are americans. but my father"--and i will have to say this--"or grandfather"--i do not know which--"is a russian, from siberia, and that is how we know marina and lee." so the conversation was general. and in the general conversation--now, this couple was from dallas, visiting my family in fort worth. the conversation was general. and she said, "lee, my father has this place of business in dallas, and will offer you a job in dallas." i said, "lee, i didn't know that you wanted to give up your job and work in dallas, because the rosenthals that i am working for, her father owns the meatpacking house in dallas, and she has told me that he employs hundreds of people, and if ever any time that you are in need, to go see her father, that she would be sure that he would give you a job." so, gentlemen, this was on a sunday. i made coffee, and the house was in order. there was nothing packed. lee got paid on a friday, from the leslie sheetmetal works. monday lee and marina packed their belongings and went to dallas. the point i am bringing, is that lee had no idea of quitting his job in fort worth, because he was not packed. this was on a sunday. and this couple offered a job in dallas. and their father, her grandfather, was a russian, and lee went to dallas on a monday, and worked for the arts graphic. i do not know--but you probably have that information. his very first job there. mr. rankin. do you know whether he was discharged by the leslie people? mrs. oswald. no, sir, he was not discharged by the leslie people. he just didn't show up. he was paid on a friday, and that monday he did not show up for work, because he came to dallas. the point i am bringing out is this job was also offered to lee from a russian father. he had no idea of moving. there was nothing packed. now, i understand that my son robert helped him to move. and the way i know this--i went there on a tuesday, and the children had gone, because they had left on a monday. so then i went to robert's home, and robert was at work. so i was all upset. they didn't tell me they were leaving. i said to veda. "marina and lee are no longer there, the house is vacant." mr. rankin. you spoke someone's name. mrs. oswald. veda, v-e-d-a. robert's wife is veda. i said they had to move yesterday. she said "robert helped them to move, and they gave us the food in the refrigerator." i said it came up all of a sudden, and i told the story about the couple being there. mr. rankin. do you know the name of that couple? mrs. oswald. no, sir. and i have not been able to find out. i have asked mrs. paine recently, and she said she does not remember. and the night i was in mrs. paine's home, i asked marina and mrs. paine, and they did say a name. marina would know the name of the couple. but i do not have that information. mr. rankin. and was he the owner of this business? mrs. oswald. the father was the owner of the business. and this was an american couple. and they did not speak russian, either one. the father was a russian, or the grandfather--that owned this place of business. mr. rankin. i think you said the grandfather before. mrs. oswald. i said either the father or the grandfather. i cannot be sure. it was the girl's father or grandfather, and not the boy. so i told my daughter-in-law about this, and she knew about it. so now here is something that i would like to have my daughter-in-law as a witness. it has been stated in the paper that my son was giving marina black eyes and possibly had beat her. and this is by the russian people. now, living in this home in fort worth, i had gone by several times i had a day off, and marina was not at home. i said to her, "marina, mama come to see you yesterday. you no home." she didn't answer. i said, "marina, mama come see you. you no home, marina." "no. i go to lady's house to take english lessons." mr. rankin. do you know who she was speaking of? mrs. oswald. i do not know for a fact. but my son robert will know. and that is why it is important to call him. that is what i am trying to say, chief justice warren. these others will know this part of my story, give you the facts. i am assuming it is mr. peter gregory's wife that started these lessons. but marina was taking english lessons. now, they lived at a corner house, and there is carol street, and opposite carol street is a parking lot for montgomery ward. they live approximately two blocks from montgomery ward. so i had gone by, as i am stating, several times. you have to understand--this is just or weeks that they are in this home. mr. rankin. you say "they." i am sorry to interrupt. mrs. oswald. marina and lee, in this home. then marina was not home. i could not understand where so fast that they could have so many friends, that this russian girl didn't speak english and know her way about, could be gone all day long. that worried me. so i sat in the car on montgomery ward's parking lot, where i could see the house, because i wanted to see who marina was going to come home with. the door was open. i went in the house and no one was there. by this time, i was wondering how she could be gone all the time, being a stranger in town. i sat in the car all day long. she didn't show up. finally, i went home, had my supper, left my apartment, and on the way going back to the house lee was leaving montgomery ward. now, they did not have a phone. i am just assuming--this is not a fact--that lee went to a telephone trying to locate his wife, because i was coming from montgomery ward. he got in the car with me, and we had about a block to go. i entered the home with lee, and i said, "lee where is marina?" of course, i knew that she wasn't home, because i had stayed in the car all day. he said, "oh, i guess she is out with some friends." "would you like me to fix your supper?" "no, she will probably be home in time to fix my supper?" so i left. i am not going to interfere in their married life. but i did offer to fix him supper. and i went back to make sure marina still wasn't home. i walked in the home with my son. so approximately days later--not approximately, but days later i went to the home and my son was reading, he read continuously--in the living room, and marina was in the bedroom, i could not see marina. and i said to lee, "tell marina, i am here." marina made no appearance. so i went into the bedroom, and she was nursing june with her head down. and i started to talk. and she still had her head down. and i came around to the front and i saw marina with a black eye. now, gentlemen, i don't think any man should hit his wife, as is stated in the paper, or beat his wife. but i will say this. there may be times that a woman needs to have a black eye. i am not condoning the act. but i strongly am saying that this girl was not home. and this man was working. and i saw, myself, that this man came home and didn't have any food. this couple doesn't have a maid or anyone to give this working man food. and i think it was her duty to be home and have his supper ready. that is a little thing, maybe. but to me it shows the character of what i am trying to bring out. and so there may have been reasons that the children fought. and i also know that many, many couples fight, of our finest people, because i made it clear before that i have worked in these very fine homes, and have seen very fine people fight. i have seen a gentleman strike his wife in front of me. we know this happens. it is not a nice thing to do. but it happens in our finest homes. i am not condoning the act. but i am telling you that there probably was reasons, we will say. the woman has a black eye, and he is a louse--he gave her a black eye, but we must consider why did he give her a black eye. we always must consider the second aspect of the case. mr. rankin. did she take the baby with her when you looked---- mrs. oswald. yes, sir, she took--always the baby was with her. mr. rankin. did you ask marina how she got the black eye or anything about it? mrs. oswald. yes, in the bedroom. i was shocked. "mama--lee." just like that. so i went in the living room and i said, "lee, what do you mean by striking marina?" he said, "mother, that is our affair." and so that ended. i wasn't going to interfere any further. now, this has been publicly stated by the russian friends, that he beat his wife. i don't know if he did beat his wife. i happened to see the black eye. i know that he hit her and gave her a black eye. marina said so, and my son has said so. but how many times does this happen, i don't know. but i am trying to point out that i don't approve of it. but i am trying to point out that everything is not according to hoyle, as we say in our american way of life. mr. rankin. is there any other time that you recall that you saw that she had bruises or a black eye? mrs. oswald. no, sir; that is the only time. and then the children moved to dallas. now, this will end that part of the story. i have accepted and i have the public papers, in , when lee went to russia--i made a statement that as an individual i thought he had a right to make up his own mind in the decision to do what he wanted. i am of that nature, because, gentlemen, today or tomorrow i may decide to go to russia, i will go. we are taught that in america, that we have the right to do what we want as an individual. so i publicly stated in that lee had a right, if he wanted to live in that country. and i think it was courage that he did so, instead of staying in america and talking about america, and living here and downing his country. it took courage to go and live where he wanted to live. i was criticized highly for making that statement. and it is published in --as far back as that. so i will get back now to when the children left. they did not tell me they had left. so i accepted the fact that my son lee did not want me to know that he was in dallas. why i accepted the fact is because of lee's so-called defection. i have had it very hard, mr. rankin, and gentlemen--i have lost jobs, i was in a position, if i was in a home and television was on, and something political was on television, and the people commented, i felt it was necessary to keep quiet, because of it. because of the defection i thought if i would express my views they might think i was a communist like my son was supposed to be. and in many a home i have been in--after three or four days they would tell me my services were not needed. i cannot say, sure it was because of lee's defection. however, i feel sure that it is, because i am a respected person, and a very good nurse, as has been stated in the paper. and my jobs were gotten from word of mouth. but you must understand that i deal with a lot of people. so naturally it is natural that some of them would feel resentful against me because of my son defecting to russia and presumably being a communist. mr. rankin. did you ever find out where marina was that day that you tried to locate her? mrs. oswald. no, sir, no sir, that ended that. so i respected my son's wish, since he didn't want to tell me where he was in dallas, that i would accept that fact. now, gentlemen, this may seem hard that i accept these things. but it is not. i am self-supporting. i have a life of my own. and if lee decides that that is the way he wants it, i am not going to grieve and worry about it. i have to get my sleep in order to work. i have the ability of accepting things, the ability granted me by the grace of god, because of my difficulty in life. i have been a widow. i have had many, many obstacles, and i have had to face them. and my faith gets stronger. i do accept things. as now, i accept the death of my son. i don't brood over that. i have that ability of doing that. so i just accepted the fact--when lee gets ready to let me know where he is, fine--up until that time, it is his privilege to do what he wants. now, that is the last contact i have had with marina and lee until the news broke in dallas that lee was picked up because of the assassination of president kennedy. mr. rankin. tell us about this period you were talking about, when he went to dallas. was that before or after the time he went to new orleans? mrs. oswald. that was before the time, sir--he lived--from my apartment, the rotary apartments, when lee got the job he lived on mercedes street from the end of july, i would say, or the beginning of september, until october, when he left to go to dallas. mr. rankin. what year was that? mrs. oswald. that was in . mr. rankin. you mean ' ? mrs. oswald. i am sorry-- . and that was the last i had seen of marina and lee. mr. rankin. did you ever find where they were in dallas? mrs. oswald. no, sir. i explained before that i made no attempt. i thought when they get ready to let me know, that is fine. up until then, i had to do my own work and take care of myself. and i do respect other people's privileges. if that is the way they want it, fine. when they get ready to let me know, i will welcome them. if not, i will go about my own business. mr. rankin. had you learned they had gone to new orleans? mrs. oswald. i had not learned of that until after the assassination. i knew nothing, i had no contact with them. so, then, the next thing we should start then would be the dallas--the assassination. mr. rankin. whatever you know. mrs. oswald. well, i was on a case in a rest home, and i had a to shift. i was dressed, ready to go to work. i was watching--i am a little ahead of my story. i watched the television in the morning before i was dressed. and richard nixon was in dallas, and he made a television appearance approximately hours before president kennedy was to arrive in dallas. and, as a layman, i remember saying, "well, the audacity of him, to make this statement against president kennedy just an hour or two before his arrival in dallas." and then i had my lunch, and i dressed, with my nurse's uniform on, to go to work, for the to shift. and i have to leave home at : . so i had a little time to watch the presidential procession. and while sitting on the sofa, the news came that the president was shot. and there was a witness on television, a man and a little girl on television. however, i could not continue to watch it. i had to report to work. so i went in the car, and approximately seven blocks away i turned the radio on in the car. i heard that lee harvey oswald was picked up as a suspect. i immediately turned the car around and came back home, got on the telephone, called acme brick in fort worth, and asked where robert was, because he had been traveling, and i must get in touch with robert immediately, because his brother was picked up as a suspect in the assassination. so they had robert call me. robert didn't know that lee was picked up. mr. rankin. was this the day of the assassination? mrs. oswald. yes, sir, the day of the assassination, they picked lee up. mr. rankin. and to --that is in the afternoon? mrs. oswald. this was : , because i was on my way to work, and i had to be at work at o'clock. mr. rankin. three in the afternoon is when you had to be at work? mrs. oswald. yes, sir, and it was : i heard the news and went back home. i had acme brick call robert to give him the news, and robert called me, and he had not heard his brother was picked up. now, robert is in denton. so i called the star telegram, and asked that--if they could possibly have someone escort me to dallas, because i realized i could not drive to dallas. and they did. they sent two men to escort me to dallas. the name of one is bob shieffer, the other name i will have for you gentlemen. mr. rankin. who are those? are those reporters? mrs. oswald. star telegram reporters, sent by the star telegram editor to escort me to dallas. now, upon arriving in dallas, i did not ask--i did not want to talk to the police. i asked specifically to talk to fbi agents. my wish was granted, i was sent into a room. i have to backtrack my story. the policemen do not know i am here--"i want to talk to fbi agents." mr. rankin. what time of the day is this? mrs. oswald. this is approximately : . so i am escorted into an office, and two brown fbi agents, they are brothers, i understand, and there was another man that i do not know the name. mr. rankin. by that you mean their names were brown? mrs. oswald. their names were brown. and i have the correct names, also. but we were in this room, and i told them who i was. and i said, "i want to talk with you gentlemen because i feel like my son is an agent of the government, and for the security of my country, i don't want this to get out." but, first, i said to them, "i want to talk to fbi agents from washington." "mrs. oswald, we are from washington, we work with washington." i said, "i understand you work with washington. but i want officials from washington," and i believed they would be in town because of protecting the president. i said, "i do not want local fbi men. what i have to say i want to say to washington men." of course they wanted the news. they said, "well, we work through washington." i said, "i know you do. but i would like washington men." so i had no choice. mr. rankin. did you tell them why you thought he was an agent? mrs. oswald. yes, sir. i am coming to this. so i said, "i have information that"--i told him who i was. i said, "for the security of my country, i want this kept perfectly quiet until you investigate. i happen to know that the state department furnished the money for my son to return back to the united states, and i don't know if that would be made public what that would involve, and so please will you investigate this and keep this quiet." of course that was news to them. they left me sitting in the office. and i also told them that congressman jim wright knew about this. "you can be sure we will question jim wright." and i gave them the names of the four men i had talked with while in washington. would you like those four names now? mr. rankin. yes. mrs. oswald. one is mr. boster, who was special counsel in charge of soviet affairs. one was mr. stanfield. i should know the names. well, gentlemen, mr. doyle will see that i give you the names of these men. i had it in a little card and carried it all these years from my washington trip and gave it to the fbi men to investigate. so they left me. mr. rankin. when you say you understand that the state department paid your son's way back from the soviet union---- mrs. oswald. yes, sir. mr. rankin. did you ever learn that that was a loan? mrs. oswald. i have the document to state that they loaned lee the money to come back. mr. rankin. but you didn't know that at the time? mrs. oswald. yes, sir. but i stated--you see, i was worried about the security of my country. i didn't know if the public would find out--how they would take the news that the state department loaned him the money, since now he is a marxist and an accused assassin. i was worried about my country. and i didn't want the public to know. i wanted the fbi, not the police, to know. mr. rankin. did you know anything else that you told them about why you thought he was an agent? mrs. oswald. no, i didn't tell them anything. but they questioned me, started to question me. one of them said, "you know a lot about your son. when was the last time you were in touch with him?" that wasn't the browns. that was the other man. i said, "i have not seen my son in a year." he said sarcastically, "now, mrs. oswald, are we to believe you have not been in touch with your son in a year? you are a mother." i said, "believe what you want. but i have not been in touch with my son in a year. my son did not want me involved. he has kept me out of his activities. that is the truth, god's truth, that i have not seen my son in a year." and the gentleman left, and i did not see them after that. they sent the stenographer that was in the outer office to sit with me, and she started to question me. i said, "young lady, i am not going to be questioned. you may just as well make up your mind that i am just going to sit here. what i want, if you will relay--have these two star telegram men come in here, please. i would like to ask them something." so they came in. and i said, "bob, i have rights and i want to see lee." of course the men didn't answer. but i sat in the office approximately or hours alone, gentlemen, with this woman who came in and out. i said, "if you think you are going to question me or get information from me, you are not." and i sat in the office or hours. every now and then i would walk up to the outer corridor and say to whoever was there, "now, listen, i am getting tired of this. i want to see lee." mr. rankin. what office was this? mrs. oswald. the courthouse in dallas. mr. rankin. whose office was it in? do you know? mrs. oswald. no, i don't know. it was a private office that lead--for instance, it would be like in the corner, a glass-enclosed office. and then you could see the outer corridor where the stenographers and the police and everybody was. mr. rankin. you don't know whose office it was? mrs. oswald. no, sir, i do not. so i sat there approximately hours. and i never did get to see lee. so at : --then robert came in. and he was questioned by the fbi. mr. rankin. were you there when he was questioned? mrs. oswald. no, sir. and i will state now emphatically that i have never been questioned by the fbi or the secret service--never, gentlemen. if they can produce my voice or anything, they can produce it. so then i was escorted into the office where marina and mrs. paine was. and, of course, i started crying right away, and hugged marina. and marina gave me rachel, whom i had never seen. i did not know i had a second grandchild, until this very moment. so i started to cry. marina started to cry. and mrs. paine said, "oh, mrs. oswald, i am so glad to meet you. marina has often expressed the desire to contact you, especially when the baby was being born. but lee didn't want her to." and i said, "mrs. paine, you spoke english. why didn't you contact me?" she said marina didn't know how to get in touch with me. she said, "well, because of the way they lived, he lived in dallas, and came home to my home on weekends. i didn't feel like i wanted to interfere." and she acted as--excuse me, gentlemen, but this is very, very emotional. the chairman. that is all right. mrs. oswald. she acted as interpreter for marina. we are in the courthouse now, in the jailhouse. so her testimony, gentlemen, the testimony that the dallas police have, is the testimony of mrs. paine, that marina assumed lee had given her. could we state now maybe it is not the correct testimony that marina gave--just one interpreter, and marina's friend, is the testimony that the dallas police has. i have no way of knowing, and you have no way of knowing, gentlemen, whether it is the correct testimony. so mrs. paine told me that she acted as interpreter. and i said, "i don't know what i am going to do. i want to stay in dallas and be near lee, so that i can help with this situation as much as possible." she said, "mrs. oswald, you are welcome in my home--if you care to sleep on the sofa." i said, "thank you very much, mrs. paine, i will accept your offer. i will sleep on the floor in order to be near dallas." so we left. we went to mrs. paine's home. i am going to say again i did not see my son. so--i had my nurse's uniform on for days. mr. rankin. what day was this at mrs. paine's? mrs. oswald. this was the night of friday, november d. we arrived there approximately o'clock. upon entering the home, about minutes after i was in the home, there was a knock on the door. now, this is a little vague. on the way leaving the courthouse we may have been in the company of the two life representatives. they may have taken us to mrs. paine's home. i did not ask who was taking us to mrs. paine's home, because i was holding my grandbaby and talking to marina, and sitting in the back of the car. and it didn't interest me at the time how i was getting to mrs. paine's home. why i am bringing this up was because after i was in her home, about minutes, there was a knock on the door, and these two life representatives entered the home. the name of the men, one is allan grant, and the other is tommy thompson. and i was not introduced. mr. rankin. had you ever seen them before? mrs. oswald. no, i had never seen them before. as i say, they could have been the men driving the car. but i want you to understand at the time i didn't notice that, because i was holding my new grandbaby, and comforting my daughter-in-law, and talking to mrs. paine in the back seat of the car. so mrs. paine sat on the floor. and she said to the photographer--he had a camera in front of him--"now, i hope you have good color film, because i want good pictures." mr. rankin. what time of the day was this? mrs. oswald. this was approximately : . we had just arrived in mrs. paine's home--i would say and o'clock, approximately, between that time. we are home minutes when they knocked on the door. mrs. paine immediately says, "gentlemen, i hope you have colored film so we will have some good pictures." i didn't know who they were. but then i knew they were newsmen, because of her statement and the camera. so tommy thompson started to interview mrs. paine. he said, "mrs. paine, tell me, are marina and lee separated, since lee lives in dallas?" she said, "no, they are a happy family. lee lives in dallas because of necessity. he works in dallas, and this is irving, and he has no transportation, and he comes every weekend to see his family." "well," he said, "what type family man is he?" she said, "a normal family man. he plays with his children. last night he fed june. he watches television and just normal things." she went on. so he said, "mrs. paine, can you tell me how lee got, the money to"--i am sorry--"can you tell me how lee was able to return back to the united states financially?" she said, "oh, yes, he saved the money to come back to the united states." now, while this little episode went on, i was fuming, gentlemen, because i didn't want this type of publicity. i thought it was uncalled for, immediately after the assassination, and the consequent arrest of my son. but i was in mrs. paine's home. now i had an opportunity to be gracious. i spoke up and i said--i am ahead of myself. she answered that he saved the money. i spoke up and i said, "now, mrs. paine, i am sorry. i am in your home. and i appreciate the fact that i am a guest in your home. but i will not have you making statements that are incorrect. because i happen to know you have made an incorrect statement. to begin with, i do not approve of this publicity. and if we are going to have the life story with life magazine"--by that time i knew what it was--"i would like to get paid. here is my daughter-in-law with two small children, and i, myself, am penniless, and if we are going to give this information, i believe we should get paid for it." mr. rankin. did you think mrs. paine was trying to get paid for it? mrs. oswald. possibly. but i do know this. it was prearranged. that is the point that is important. that after a few hours time, the life representatives were invited to her home, into her home, because she expected them, you see. mr. rankin. you think she arranged it, then? mrs. oswald. yes, sir, possibly with marina's help. i do not know. it was arranged--i am positive--the way they entered the home. she invited them in, without even introducing me. and immediately said she hoped they had color film. mr. rankin. were they talking to each other, marina, and mrs. paine, while you were there? mrs. oswald. yes, they talked in russian. and that is a difficult part. i didn't know russian. then, with that, the life representative got up and said, "mrs. oswald, i will call my office and see what they think about an arrangement of your life story." so he did call the office. he closed the door and called in private. and nothing was said--in the living room. when i say nothing was said, it was between myself and the other representative. mrs. paine was talking to my daughter-in-law in russian. i was talking to my daughter-in-law in english. it was a regular general conversation, as far as i knew. he came out from the telephone conversation and said, no, that the company would not allow him to pay for the story. what they would do--they would pay our expenses while in dallas, and our food and expenses, hotel accommodation. so i told him that i would think about it. now, they continued to hang around. and they were taking pictures continuously, all the while this was going on--the photographer, mr. allen was continuously taking pictures. i was awfully tired and upset. i rolled my stockings down, and the picture is in life magazine. and he stopped that. so i got up and said, "i am not having this invasion of privacy. i realize that i am in mrs. paine's home. but you are taking my picture without my consent, and a picture that i certainly don't want made public." it is the worst--with me rolling my hose. i wanted to get comfortable. he followed marina around in the bedroom. she was undressing june. he took pictures of everything. and mrs. paine was in her glory--i will say this. mrs. paine was very happy all these pictures were taken. and i had to go behind marina to see that the photographers were not taking her, and they were taking me. and it was just a regular--the home was a living room and a hall and a bedroom and kitchen, and we were all going around in circles. and the photographer was taking pictures, until finally i became indignant, and said, "i have had it. now, find out what accommodations you can make for us, for my daughter-in-law and i so that we can be in dallas to help lee, and let me know in the morning." so they left. however, about an hour later there was a telephone call to mrs. paine from a life representative. i know by her conversation who she was talking to. mr. rankin. who was that? mrs. oswald. one of the men--either allen grant or tommy thompson. and after the conversation, i said to her, "was that one of the life representatives?" and she said, "oh, yes, he just was a little upset about what happened." so i got no information there. the chairman. would you like to take a short recess, mrs. oswald? mrs. oswald. yes, i am getting thirsty. the chairman. suppose we do. we will take one for about minutes. (brief recess.) the chairman. the commission will be in order. mrs. oswald, you may continue with your statement. mrs. oswald. yes, sir. now, we are in mrs. paine's home yet. the chairman. yes. this is on the day of the assassination? mrs. oswald. yes, sir--the d, friday, the d. i am worried because lee hasn't had an attorney. and i am talking about that, and mrs. paine said, "oh, don't worry about that. i am a member of the civil liberties union, and lee will have an attorney, i can assure you." i said to myself but when? of course, i didn't want to push her, argue with her. but the point was if she was a member of the union, why didn't she see lee had an attorney then. so i wasn't too happy about that. now, gentlemen, this is some very important facts. my daughter-in-law spoke to mrs. paine in russian. "mamma," she says. so she takes me into the bedroom and closes the door. she said, "mamma, i show you." she opened the closet, and in the closet was a lot of books and papers. and she came out with a picture--a picture of lee, with a gun. it said, "to my daughter june"--written in english. i said, "oh, marina, police." i didn't think anything of the picture. now, you must understand that i don't know what is going on on television--i came from the jailhouse and everything, so i don't know all the circumstances, what evidence they had against my son by this time. i had no way of knowing. but i say to my daughter, "to my daughter, june," anybody can own a rifle, to go hunting. you yourself probably have a rifle. so i am not connecting this with the assassination--"to my daughter, june." because i would immediately say, and i remember--i think my son is an agent all the time--no one is going to be foolish enough if they mean to assassinate the president, or even murder someone to take a picture of themselves with that rifle, and leave that there for evidence. so, i didn't think a thing about it. and it says "to my daughter, june." i said, "the police," meaning that if the police got that, they would use that against my son, which would be a natural way to think. she says, "you take, mamma." i said, "no." "yes, mamma, you take." i said, "no, marina. put back in the book." so she put the picture back in the book. which book it was, i do not know. so the next day, when we are at the courthouse--this is on saturday--she--we were sitting down, waiting to see lee. she puts her shoe down, she says, "mamma, picture." she had the picture folded up in her shoe. now, i did not see that it was the picture, but i know that it was, because she told me it was, and i could see it was folded up. it wasn't open for me to see. i said, "marina." just like that. so robert came along and he says, "robert" i said, "no, no marina." i didn't want her to tell robert about the picture. right there, you know. that was about the picture. mr. rankin. did you ever tell her to destroy the picture? mrs. oswald. no. now, i have to go into this. i want to tell you about destroying the picture. now, that was in mrs. paine's home. i want to start to remember--because when we leave mrs. paine's home, we go into another phase, where the picture comes in again. so i have to tell the--unless you want to ask me specific questions. mr. rankin. no, you go right ahead. mrs. oswald. mrs. paine, in front of me, gave marina $ . now, mrs. paine, when i said, after the representatives left--i said, "you know, i do want to get paid for the story, because i am destitute, and here is a girl with--her husband is going to be in jail, we will need money for attorneys, with two babies." she said, "you don't have to worry about marina. marina will always have a home with me, because marina helps." now, mrs. paine speaks russian fluently. "she helps me with my russian language. she babysits for me and helps me with the housework, and you never have to worry about marina. she will always have a home with me." now, mr. and mrs. paine are separated. mr. paine does not live here. so it is just the two women. so, mrs. paine didn't graciously do anything for marina, as the paper stated--that lee never did pay mrs. paine for room or board. mrs. paine owes them money. that is almost the kind of work that i do, or the airline stewardesses do, serve food and everything. marina was earning her keep, and really should have had a salary for it--what i am trying to say, gentlemen, mrs. paine had marina there to help babysit with the children, with her children--if she wanted to go running around and everything. so actually she wasn't doing my son or marina the favor that she claims she was doing. but the point i am trying to stress is that she did tell me marina would never have to worry, because marina would have a home with her. at this particular moment, i cannot remember anything of importance in the house. otherwise, about the picture i have stated. and mrs. paine with the life representative, and her saying that lee would have an attorney, and mrs. paine giving marina a $ bill. oh, marina told me, "mamma, i have this money." it was money in an envelope--in the bedroom, when she showed me the picture. i said, "how much money, marina." "about how much?" i asked her. "about $ and some." now, mrs. paine has stated to the life representative that lee and marina were saving his pay in order to have a home for themselves for christmas time, because they had never been in a home of their own at christmas time--in order to celebrate christmas. so, the hundred and some odd dollars isn't a big sum, considering that lee paid $ a week room in dallas--and it has been stated by the landlady that lee ate lunchmeat or fruit. and lee was very, very thin when i saw him. and lee gave his salary to his wife in order to save to have this home for christmas. so, that is not a lot of money to have in the house--i would not think so, because i believe lee was earning about $ a week. and let's say he could live for about $ or $ . and he gave the rest of the money to his wife. and so i reported this money to the secret service while we were in six flags--that marina had the money. i wanted them to know. she showed me the money. i cannot think now--i did think of the money after going back--but i cannot think of anything at this particular moment that would be of any benefit that happened in this house. mr. rankin. in regard to the photograph, i will show you some photographs. maybe you can tell me whether they are the ones that you are referring to. here is commission's exhibit . mrs. oswald. no, sir, that is not the picture. mr. rankin. and , consists of two different pictures. mrs. oswald.. no, sir, that is not the picture. he was holding the rifle up, and it said, "to my daughter, june, with love." he was holding the rifle up. mr. rankin. by holding it up, you mean---- mrs. oswald.. like this. mr. rankin. crosswise, with both hands on the rifle? mrs. oswald.. with both hands on the rifle. mr. rankin. above his head? mrs. oswald. that is right. mr. rankin. did you ever see these pictures, exhibits and ? mrs. oswald. no, sir, i have never seen those pictures. mr. rankin. now, you were going to tell us about some further discussion of the picture you did see? mrs. oswald. yes--all right. now, so the next morning the two representatives of the life magazine, mr. allen grant and mr. tommy thompson come by at o'clock with a woman, russian interpreter, a doctor somebody. i have not been able to find this woman. i have called the universities, thinking that she was a language teacher, and i--maybe you have her name. but she is very, very important to our story. and i do want to locate her, if possible. during the night, i had decided i was going to take up their offer, because i would be besieged by reporters and everything. so why not go with the life representatives, and let them pay my room and board and my daughter-in-law's. they came by at o'clock, without calling, with this russian interpreter. so marina was getting dressed and getting the children dressed. he was taking pictures all the time. mr. rankin. they came by where? mrs. oswald. mrs. paine's home. and there was no hurry, though, to leave the home, because mrs. paine was most anxious for the life representatives to talk to her and get these pictures and everything--whether marina has any part in this i don't know, because they spoke russian, and she didn't tell me about it. but i know mrs. paine did. we left with the two life representatives. they brought us to the hotel adolphus in dallas. i immediately upon entering the hotel picked up the phone and called captain will fritz, to see if marina and i could see lee at the jailhouse. mr. rankin. who is he? mrs. oswald. he is one of the big men in dallas on this case. mr. rankin. the chief of detectives, or something like that? mrs. oswald. yes. and i called him from the hotel, and the man that answered the phone said he would relay my message to him, that i wanted to see if marina and i could see lee. i waited on the phone. he came back and said, "yes, mrs. oswald, captain fritz said you may see lee at o'clock today." we arrived at the adolphus hotel between : and : . mr. rankin. this was what day? mrs. oswald. this was saturday, november , the morning of saturday, november . while we were there, an fbi agent, mr. hart odum entered the room with another agent, and wanted marina to accompany him to be questioned. mr. rankin. were these fbi agents? mrs. oswald. yes, sir; mr. hart odum is an fbi agent. and i said, "no, we are going to see lee." we were all eating breakfast when he came in. i said, "no, we have been promised to see lee. she is not going with you." so he said, "well, will you tell mrs. oswald, please"--to the interpreter, "i would like to question her and i would like her to come with me to be questioned." i said, "it is no good. you don't need to tell the interpreter that, because my daughter-in-law is not going with you. we have been promised to see lee. and besides marina has testified, made her statement at the courthouse yesterday, and any further statements that marina will make will be through counsel." mr. odum said to the interpreter, "mrs. oswald"--to the interpreter--"will you tell mrs. oswald to decide what she would like to do and not listen to her mother-in-law." i said, "it is no good to tell my daughter-in-law, because my daughter-in-law is not leaving here with you, mr. odum, without counsel." and i had been telling marina, "no, no." she said, "i do, mamma," she kept saying. just then my son, robert, entered the room, and mr. odum said, "robert, we would like to take marina and question her." he said, "no, i am sorry, we are going to try to get lawyers for both she and lee." so he left. we went to the courthouse and we sat and sat, and while at the courthouse my son, robert, was being interviewed by--i don't know whether it was secret service or fbi agents--in a glass enclosure. we were sitting--an office, a glass enclosed office. we were sitting on the bench right there. mr. rankin. where was this? mrs. oswald. in the dallas courthouse, on saturday. so we waited quite a while. one of the men came by and said "i am sorry that we are going to be delayed in letting you see lee, but we have picked up another suspect." i said, to marina, "oh, marina, good, another man they think maybe shoot kennedy." mr. rankin. did you ask anything about who this suspect was? mrs. oswald. no, sir; i did not. he just give the information why we would be delayed. we sat out there quite a while. the police were very nice. they helped us about the baby. we went into another room for privacy, for marina to nurse rachel. it was or hours before we got to see lee. we went upstairs and were allowed to see lee. this was in the jail--the same place i had been from the very beginning, and we were taken upstairs. and by the way, they only issued a pass for marina and myself, and not for robert. and robert was very put out, because he thought he was also going to see his brother. whether robert saw his brother or not, i do not know, mr. rankin. mr. rankin. about what time of day was this? mrs. oswald. just a minute now. we arrived there at o'clock. this would be about or : in the afternoon, before we got to see lee. mr. rankin. was anyone else present when he saw you? mrs. oswald. no. marina and i were escorted back of the door where they had an enclosure and telephones. so marina got on the telephone and talked to lee in russian. that is my handicap. i don't know what was said. and lee seemed very severely composed and assured. he was well-beaten up. he had black eyes, and his face was all bruised and everything. but he was very calm. he smiled with his wife, and talked with her, and then i got on the phone and i said, "honey, you are so bruised up, your face. what are they doing?" he said, "mother, don't worry. i got that in a scuffle." now, my son would not tell me they had abused him. that was a boy's way to his mother--if he was abused, and it was shown in the paper his black eyes--he wouldn't tell how he got that. he said that was done in the scuffle. so i talked and said, "is there anything i can do to help you?" he said, "no, mother, everything is fine. i know my rights, and i will have an attorney. i have already requested to get in touch with attorney abt, i think is the name. don't worry about a thing." mr. rankin. did you say anything to him about another suspect? mrs. oswald. no, sir, i did not. that was my entire conversation to him. gentlemen, you must realize this. i had heard over the television my son say, "i did not do it. i did not do it." and a million of the other people had heard him. i say this. as a mother--i heard my son say this. but also as a citizen, if i had heard another man say, i didn't do it, i will have to believe that man, because he hasn't been--hasn't had the opportunity to present his side of the case. so here is my son. when i saw him people had said, "did you ask him if he did it?" no, sir. i think by now you know my temperament, gentlemen. i would not insult my son and ask him if he shot at president kennedy. why? because i myself heard him say, "i didn't do it, i didn't do it." so, that was enough for me, i would not ask that question. mr. rankin. who told you that there was--they had found another suspect? mrs. oswald. one of the officers. that, sir, i don't know. he just walked in real fast while we were sitting down and said they had picked up another suspect, and it was in the paper that they had picked up another suspect at that particular time, which would have been approximately o'clock that day. mr. rankin. but you don't remember the officer's name? mrs. oswald. no, sir, that is all he said and he left. he was just relaying why we would be delayed. but it was also published. i do not have the paper or the information. but i do know from the reporters, when i told my story, that part to them--they said that substantiates the newspaper story that they did pick up a suspect at that time. mr. rankin. about how long did you and marina spend there with your son? mrs. oswald. i would say i spent about or minutes on the telephone, and then marina came back to the telephone and talked with lee. so we left. so marina started crying. marina says, "mamma, i tell lee i love lee and lee says he love me very much. and lee tell me to make sure i buy shoes for june." now, here is a man that is accused of the murder of a president. this is the next day, or let's say about hours that he has been questioned. his composure is good. and he is thinking about his young daughter needing shoes. now, june was wearing shoes belonging to mrs. paine's little girl, marina told me--they were little red tennis shoes, and the top was worn. they were clean, and the canvas was showing by the toe part, like children wear out their toes. i ask you this, gentlemen. if marina had a hundred and some odd dollars in the house, why is it necessary that my son has to tell her at the jailhouse, remind her to buy shoes for his baby, for their child? just a few dollars out of that hundred and some odd dollars would have bought shoes for this particular child. another way to look at this, as i stated previously--that the boy is concerned about shoes for his baby, and he is in this awful predicament. so he must feel innocent, or sure that everything is going to be all right, as he told me. mr. rankin. now, in this telephone conversation, when you talked to your son, can you explain a little bit to the commission how that is? was your son on the other side of a wall or something? mrs. oswald. yes, sir. my son was on the other side of the wall, and then back of the wall was a door with a peephole, where an officer was. now, we are going to come from the door, with the peephole and the officer, to my son. then a glass partition and then glass partitions like telephone booths. but not really inclosed--just a little separation. mr. rankin. so you could not reach in there and take your son's hand? mrs. oswald. no, sir. we talked by telephone. mr. rankin. and he had a telephone on his side, and---- mrs. oswald. and he had a telephone. mr. rankin. and you talked back and forth? mrs. oswald. back and forth, that is right. that is the way we talked. and the boy was badly beat up. i have proof in the papers--his face, black eyes, all scratched up, his neck was scratched. he was badly beat up. but he assured me they were not mistreating him, that he got some of the bruises in the scuffle. as i say, the boy, if he was being mistreated, would not tell his mother that. mr. rankin. and whatever marina said to him was in russian, and you didn't understand it? mrs. oswald. no, sir, i did not understand. but i would say this, it seemed to be just an ordinary pleasant conversation. he was smiling. and she told me he said he loved her very much, she said she loved him, and told about buying the shoes for the baby. that is all she said. she did not tell me any other part of the conversation. and they talked quite a while. she talked with him twice. she talked with him the first time. i got on the phone. then she talked to him again. mr. rankin. did it sound like there was any dispute or argument? mrs. oswald. no. it was a pleasant conversation. but she did not volunteer to tell me what was said, and i did not ask her what was said. mr. rankin. what did you do after that? mrs. oswald. so then after that we went back to the adolphus hotel. and upon arriving at the hotel--i am a little ahead of my story. the police and the detectives at the dallas jail were most courteous to marina and i. there were hundreds of reporters out in the corridor. and we were getting ready to leave, so they said that they would take us down the back way--incidentally, the same place where my son was shot. and they had arranged for two to go down and to get a car and to bring into this basement, and take us down the back elevator, and try to avoid the reporters. and there were approximately six or seven in the elevator. when we got down there, there were just a few reporters, and they went way out of their way to elude any reporters. we were at the adolphus hotel as i explained to you. and instead of from the jail going straight to the adolphus hotel, they drove around or minutes time in circles in order to lose anybody who might be following marina and i. so, as we got to the floor of the adolphus hotel, we knocked on the door where we were, and no one answered. we were with two men. immediately around the corner comes mr. tommy thompson, the life representative. mr. rankin. what two men were you with? mrs. oswald. two men from the dallas courthouse. mr. rankin. from the police? mrs. oswald. yes, from the police. so mr. tommy thompson came and they asked for his credentials. i had never even--as thorough as i am trying to be--i am trying to tell you there are some things i don't know because of the confusion--i didn't ask for the credentials. i could have been with anybody. i just assumed they were life representatives. i had not asked. but these dallas detectives or police, in plain clothes, asked mr. tommy thompson for his credentials, and then left us in his care again. immediately mr. tommy thompson said, "mrs. oswald, what do you plan to do now?" the interpreter was gone, and so was the other representative, mr. allen grant. i said, "well, the arrangement was that we were going to stay here in the hotel for a few days, and you were going to pay expenses." he said, "but you have not given us any facts." they were not interested--and to me it seems very strange that they were not interested in my conversation at the jail with my son. they did not even ask if we saw lee. yet they knew we left the adolphus hotel in order to go see lee. but they did not even ask if we saw lee. and i have often wondered about that. so when i told him that we expected to stay there, he said, "well, mrs. oswald, the reporters will be coming in flocks, they know where you are. just a minute." he got on the telephone. mr. allen grant--they had a life--the life representatives had a room on the ninth floor where they had a lot of men working on this case, and we were on the th, i believe. so mr. allen grant came down from the ninth floor with another man--i do not know his name--because the baby's diapers had to be changed and things of this sort. he said, "mrs. oswald"--they left. tommy thompson said, "mrs. oswald, what we are going to do is get you on the outskirts of town, so the reporters won't know where you are, and here is some money for your expenses in case you need anything." well, i took the bill, and i put it in my uniform pocket without looking at it. that may sound strange to you gentlemen, but this is confusion. i knew it was money, and i just put it in my uniform pocket. so mr. allen grant escorted my daughter-in-law and i out of the hotel, the adolphus hotel, and took us to the executive inn, which is on the outskirts of dallas. we sat in the car. he went in and came out, then, and said, "mrs. oswald, i have arranged for you all to stay here for or days. i have to be back in san francisco. anything you want you have your cash that mr. tommy thompson gave you. and he will be in touch with you." well, i didn't think too much of it. he escorted us with a porter up to our room. we had two beautiful suites--two, not one--completed rooms and baths, adjoining, at the executive inn. and that was the last time i had seen either representative. i was stranded with a russian girl and two babies. i didn't realize in the beginning. but then it was time for food, and i had to order food. i told marina to stay aside and that i would let the man in. she stayed in her room. i let this man in with the food, and then i became uneasy, that he might know who we were is what i was uneasy about, because i didn't realize the danger actually marina and i were in. i sensed we were alone. and there i was with a russian girl. and i didn't want anybody to know who we were, because i knew my son had been picked up. so this is where the picture comes in. while there, marina--there is an ashtray on the dressing table. and marina comes with bits of paper, and puts them in the ashtray and strikes a match to it. and this is the picture of the gun that marina tore up into bits of paper, and struck a match to it. now, that didn't burn completely, because it was heavy--not cardboard--what is the name for it--a photographic picture. so the match didn't take it completely. mr. rankin. had you said anything to her about burning it before that? mrs. oswald. no, sir. the last time i had seen the picture was in marina's shoe when she was trying to tell me that the picture was in her shoe. i state here now that marina meant for me to have that picture, from the very beginning, in mrs. paine's home. she said--i testified before--"mamma, you keep picture." and then she showed it to me in the courthouse. and when i refused it, then she decided to get rid of the picture. she tore up the picture and struck a match to it. then i took it and flushed it down the toilet. mr. rankin. and what time was this? mrs. oswald. this--now, just a minute, gentlemen, because this i know is very important to me and to you, too. we had been in the jail. this was an evening. well, this, then, would be approximately : or in the evening. mr. rankin. what day? mrs. oswald. on saturday, november . now, i flushed the torn bits and the half-burned thing down the commode. and nothing was said. there was nothing said. mr. rankin. that was at the executive inn? mrs. oswald. at the executive inn. now, mr. hart odum, the same fbi agent, that insisted upon my daughter-in-law going with him from the adolphus hotel, knocked on the door at the executive inn. i had had my robe and slippers on, and i pushed the curtain aside when he knocked. he said, "this is mr. odum." so, i opened the door. this is very important. i would like to not talk about it. i would like to show you what i did. this is so important. i opened the door just a little, because i had the robe off and i didn't want anybody to come in. the door is just ajar. i am going to take my shoes off, gentlemen, because i have this worked out. this is my height. he said, "mrs. oswald, we would like to see marina." i said, "mr. odum, i stated yesterday you are not going to see marina. we are awful tired." "well, we just want to ask her one question." "mr. odum, i am not calling my daughter. as a matter of fact, she is taking a bath." she wasn't. he said, "mrs. oswald, i would like to ask you a question." i said, "yes, sir." the door is ajar. this is my height. i wear bifocals, which enlarges things. and in his hand--his hand is bigger than mine--in the cup of his hand, like this, is a picture. and the two corners are torn off the picture. this is a very glossy black and white picture of a man's face and shoulder. now, mr. odum wasn't too tall. i need somebody else. mr. odum's hand with the picture--what i am trying to say--he is facing this way--showing me. so my eyes are looking straight at the picture. and i have nothing else to see but this hand and the picture, because the door is ajar. and there is nothing on the picture but a face and shoulders. there is no background or anything. so i can identify this picture amongst millions of pictures, i am so sure of it. it was a glossy black and white picture. so i said, "no, sir, believe me. i have never seen this picture in my life." with that, he went off. there was another man with him. about an hour later the telephone rang, and it was mrs. paine. she said, "mrs. oswald, lee called and he was very upset because marina was not with me, and he asked me to get a lawyer for him, a mr. abt. i would like to talk to marina." so i put marina on the telephone, and marina said about two or three words. so when she got off the telephone, i said,--now, marina talks in russian, gentlemen. i said, "marina, mrs. paine told me that lee called and you were not home at mrs. paine, and lee tells mrs. paine to get a lawyer." marina didn't answer. and i then sensed--well, now, why isn't she answering me? this is very peculiar. and there was no more said about that conversation. mr. rankin. did you ask her about this lawyer? mrs. oswald. ask marina? mr. rankin. yes. mrs. oswald. no, sir. there was no more said about this conversation. mr. rankin. you didn't say anything about mr. abt to her then? mrs. oswald. no, sir. but here is the point to this whole thing. the fbi agent would have to know where we were, and mrs. paine would have to know where we were, because of these two life representatives, who, i am assuming, probably went back to mrs. paine's home in order to get more information. and she--they would have told her where we were, because no one knew where we were. this girl and i had no protection or anything. we were sent out there with this mr. allen grant, the representative. and no one knew who we were. and mr. hart odum would have to know where we were through mrs. paine, which is a normal procedure, let's say. he might have gone to mrs. paine's home looking for marina there, and mrs. paine might have told him we were at the executive inn. i will grant that. but the point i am going to make is that the picture was tried to be shown to marina before the telephone conversation. now, if there are any questions why i say that, i would be happy to answer. mr. rankin. yes--why do you say that? mrs. oswald. because they wanted marina---- mr. dulles. could we get what picture this is? is that the picture held in the hand? mrs. oswald. yes, sir--the picture that is held in the hand, that the fbi agent, mr. hart odum showed me. mr. rankin. i understand you didn't recognize who the picture was at all. mrs. oswald. no. i told mr. hart odum i had never seen the man before, "believe me, sir," and he left. so the picture was shown--was tried--had tried to be shown to my daughter-in-law, but they were not successful. so then they received--marina receives a telephone call. now, i am under the impression, since i know it was mr. jack ruby's picture i saw--at the time i didn't. mr. rankin. how do you know that? mrs. oswald. because i have seen his picture in the paper. now i know it is mr. jack ruby. i am under the impression that marina was threatened---- mr. rankin. what was the date now? mrs. oswald. this is saturday, november d. this is approximately : in the evening, that the fbi agent came. and the telephone call was later. now, i have no way of knowing whether lee had permission to use the telephone. remember, lee is in jail. mr. rankin. about what time do you think the telephone call was? mrs. oswald. i would say it was about : , o'clock in the night. mr. rankin. that was still on saturday night? mrs. oswald. yes, sir, still on saturday night at the executive inn. and that was after the picture was shown to me--she received this telephone call, and became very silent. and the next day my son was shot. now, it is now that i have done investigation of this case that i believe that the picture was meant for marina to see, meant for marina to see. mr. rankin. why do you think that? mrs. oswald. because now it has been proven that jack ruby killed my son. and i think there is a connection there. because marina did not tell me about her conversation. and you men hold the answer whether lee used the telephone from the jailhouse. i don't know that. mr. rankin. you base that on just your own conclusion that you arrive at now, do you? mrs. oswald. yes--because of the fbi agent, mr. hart odum, insistence on taking my daughter-in-law--and he being the same agent that came and showed the picture. and mr. ruby being the man that shot lee--yes, these are definite conclusions. mr. rankin. that is what you base it on? mrs. oswald. yes, sir, that is what i base it on. mr. dulles. do i understand correctly that marina did not see the picture at any time? mrs. oswald. that is correct, sir. but they tried awfully hard for marina to see the picture. mr. rankin. and when they could not show it to her---- mrs. oswald. they showed it to me--yes, sir. mr. rankin. have you ever seen that picture since? mrs. oswald. on a wednesday--lee was shot on a sunday--neither marina nor i knew how he was shot. they kept it from us. you have to visualize this. we were at the six flags with approximately to fbi agents, secret service men running in and out, a woman with a russian girl and two sick babies, and the girl and i do not know what is going on. mr. rankin. when you had gotten over to the six flags, you must have skipped something there--you were in the executive inn before. mrs. oswald. yes. i was going to make a point about letting you know why i didn't know. mr. rankin. all right. mrs. oswald. all right--let's go back to the executive inn. so that night i was very upset and very worried. i realized that we were there alone. and we were not going to go in town, into dallas. i wasn't going to take this russian girl and the two babies. and the babies were all chapped. we had no diapers. we were not prepared for this. and it was hectic, gentlemen. so all night long i am wondering how can i get in touch with robert, what can i do. and i was a little suspicious of mrs. paine. i was suspicious of mrs. paine from the time i entered her home. mr. rankin. had you found out how much money the life man gave you? mrs. oswald. no, not even yet. mr. rankin. all right. mrs. oswald. so i signed for the food. i called the operator and i asked the operator what name the room was registered under. she said, "well, this is an unusual request. don't you know what room--what name?" i said, "frankly, i don't. we are three couples. i don't know which name they used." so she told me that the room was registered under mrs. allen grant, which is the name of the life representative. so i charged and signed. and they would have that for proof--mrs. allen grant, on the food. mr. rankin. why did you say three couples? mrs. oswald. i just said that to the operator, because i had to give her a reason why i didn't know which name the room was registered under. so i just wanted to elaborate a little bit--let her know. i didn't want to give my name. because i was by this time a little concerned about the situation. during the night i thought--"we are in a position here, i am in a position with a russian girl and two babies, and i just don't know what to do." i had no contact with robert. robert was trying to get an attorney. and i didn't know if robert knew where we were. and i did not want to call mrs. paine. i wanted to stay clear of mrs. paine. so this is a very unusual coincidence. now, i have to go back a little bit. but, believe me, gentlemen, the story will get together for you to understand. about month prior to this, there was an ad in a fort worth paper that the public library was going to have language lessons, and one was russian classes. well, i then, as i told you--i was employed for the to shift. and i was getting a day off. and this would have been a steady job because this woman was not that sick, just an invalid. so i decided on my day off i wanted to do something. so i decided i would call up about it, and on my day off--make tuesday my day off and take up russian in case--because i had always hoped in my heart that marina and lee would contact me some day. after all, i am a mother first. so i went to the library. and mr. peter gregory was the instructor. now, you must remember--i did not know that he knew marina and lee. this is public notice for the russian language. so mr. peter gregory is the instructor. i went to the second class. my car broke down just one block from the library, and i had to have it towed, and i went to the class. and mr. peter gregory was there, and several of the women waiting for his classes to start. i said i don't imagine i will learn anything, because my car has broken down and i am pretty upset. and mr. gregory said, "where do you live, mrs. oswald? maybe i could help you and take you home." and the other couple said, "we would be happy." and i said i live in arlington heights. and he happens to live about blocks away. now, i have to go back. the point i am going to make is this: mr. peter gregory is the engineer who knew my son robert, who was friends with lee and marina. yet when i registered for a class, and the librarian had come back down before the class, and read off the names of the people that were going to take the spanish lesson, isn't it peculiar that mr. gregory did not remember me as the mother of lee--didn't acknowledge me as the mother of lee? i find that very peculiar. even the second lesson, there was no acknowledgment. so i went home with mr. peter gregory. and there was still no acknowledgment. so we were talking about the russian language, that is is very hard to learn. and i said, "i am sure i will never master it." and i thought i think i will tell him why i want to take lessons is because of my russian daughter-in-law, and my son speaks russian. but i didn't do it. but i am going to point out again that mr. gregory did not acknowledge me. i am going to give and take. maybe he didn't connect me. but it would seem very odd--mrs. marguerite oswald was the name--that he didn't connect as marina's mother-in-law and lee's mother, when he was such a friend with them. mr. rankin. i am not clear as to what lessons you were taking. mrs. oswald. russian lessons at the public library in fort worth, tex., and mr. gregory was the teacher. mr. rankin. you said something about spanish. mrs. oswald. oh, did i? i am sorry. no, sir, the russian language. the chairman. what days were these? mr. rankin. what days were these that you talked to mr. gregory? mrs. oswald. you mean the russian language? mr. rankin. yes. mrs. oswald. i do not have this information. but i can get it for you from the public library, because there was a public notice in the paper. mr. rankin. can you tell us approximately? mrs. oswald. yes, it was just right before the assassination. i had taken two lessons. yes, i had taken two lessons, and then i didn't go for the third lesson, because this was on a friday--the lessons were on a tuesday. so i had taken two lessons, the two tuesdays prior to the assassination. mr. rankin. i see. so it would be around a little over weeks before the assassination? mrs. oswald. yes, sir. two tuesdays before, and then my next lesson would have been the tuesday after the friday of the assassination. yes, sir, that is the time. so then i thought of mr. gregory. now, believe me, gentlemen--and i will swear again, if you want me to--nothing was said about mr. gregory and marina being friends. but i do have a guardian angel. and, as i go along, some of the things i know have been from this guardian angel. this was just a coincidence. i thought of calling mr. peter gregory. i have no friends in fort worth. i never--i live a very lonely life. i am not lonely. but i live to myself. i am kept very busy. i had my work, hour duty. so really i have no friends. and because of lee's defection, i didn't make any new friends. so i am racking my mind who can i call for help. and i think of mr. peter gregory. so i call mr. peter gregory at : in the morning, sunday, the th--sunday morning the th. and i didn't want the hotel operator to know who i was. so i gave a fictitious name. he said, "i am sorry,"--i said, "i can't tell you who i am, mr. gregory." i am ahead of my story. marina, when i said, "marina, we need help, honey. i am going to call a mr. gregory." and i told her about me taking russian lessons. "oh, mama, i know mr. gregory, lee know mr. gregory, the man at the library that gives russian lessons." so i find that very much of a coincidence. so i called mr. gregory. i said, "mr. gregory, i won't say who i am, but you know my son and you know my daughter-in-law, and i am in trouble, sir. i am over here." he said, "i am sorry, but i won't talk to anybody i don't know." mr. rankin. what name did you give him? mrs. oswald. i didn't give him any name. he said, "i am sorry, but i won't talk to anyone i don't know." and i said again, "well, you know my son real well." he said, "oh, you are mrs. oswald." i said, "yes sir, this is mrs. oswald. we are at the executive inn in dallas, stranded. and do you know of anyone who would give my daughter-in-law and i a home, and put us up for the time that this is going on, so we can be near lee at the courthouse? i need help. mr. gregory." he said, "mrs. oswald, what is your room number? i will help you. hold still. help will be coming." and so that was the end of my conversation with mr. gregory. at : sunday, november d, my son robert and mr. gregory came to the executive inn, all excited. we had diapers strung all over the place. my uniform was washed. i had no clothes with me. i went with the uniform. "hurry up, we have got to get you out of here." i am not one to be told what to do, and you gentlemen know that by this time. i said, "what's your hurry? we have the diapers and all. i want to tell you what happened." "mother, mother stop talking. we have to get you out of here." mr. gregory said, "mrs. oswald, will you listen and get things together. we have to get you out of here." i said, "that is all we have been doing since yesterday, running from one place to the other. give us just a minute. we are coming, but we have to pack things." "hurry up." i said, "i want you to know how we got here. i was shown a picture of a man last night. and mrs. paine called and said that lee called." i told him exactly. so mr. gregory and robert knew about the things i told you. i told him that while i am gathering up the things. "mrs. oswald, we will talk later. we have to get you out of here." i have found out since that my son was shot. but they did not tell us. mr. rankin. did you have a television in this room? mrs. oswald. yes, sir. now, here is another godsend. we watched the television, marina and i. she watched more than i did. we were very busy, mr. rankin. the babies had diarrhea and everything. i was very busy with the babies and the russian girl. and just like at the end of the six flags, we were just getting snatches of it. but marina wanted to know, "mama, i want see lee." she was hoping lee would come on the picture, like he did. so this morning, sunday morning, i said, "oh, honey, let's turn the television off. the same thing over and over." and i turned the television off. so marina and i did not see what happened to my son. we had the television off. so we did not know. but frantically robert and mr. gregory kept insisting that we pack and run. so when we get downstairs, here was secret service men all over. mr. rankin. now, before you leave that, what did robert say about the story about the picture, when you told him that? did he say anything? mrs. oswald. no. he and mr. gregory both didn't want to listen to me. i told them, but they didn't want to hear my story. they wanted to get us out of here. mr. rankin. they didn't say anything about it? mrs. oswald. no, sir, not that i can recall. and i don't believe they did. they didn't want to hear what i had to say. they kept fussing at me and saying "mother, stop talking. hurry up, we have got to get you out of here." i kept saying, "all we have been doing is run from one place to the other. the diapers are wet." i was kind of having my way about this. so when we get downstairs, there is secret service all around. i am ahead of my story. robert went downstairs to pay the bill, and that is when i gave robert the money, and it was a $ bill that the life representative had given to me. they gave me some money. i took it out---- mr. rankin. that is the first time you looked at it? mrs. oswald. the first time i looked at it, sir. i charged the food, and i had no need for money. wait a minute--i am wrong. yes. representative ford. mrs. oswald--didn't you say you had washed your uniform? mrs. oswald. yes. representative ford. when you washed your uniform, didn't you---- mrs. oswald. just a minute, if you let me explain. i just said i was wrong. the first time--it was puerto rican that brought the dinner in. we needed baby lotion for the baby. and then i took the bill out and i saw it was a $ bill, because he went to the drug store--i gave him the $ bill, this puerto rican, that brought the food in--the first food we had--to go to the drug store and pay for the necessities that marina and i needed--really it was for the baby, the lotion and everything. and he came back and the drug store was closed--it was on a sunday. and so i did know about the $ bill before this time. and then when robert came, i gave robert the $ bill and he went downstairs to pay the bill. now, the representatives had not paid the bill. robert used the $ to pay the bill. the bill was not paid. so we were really stranded. those men left two women stranded. now, let me see if there is anything i have forgotten. mr. rankin. where did you put the $ after the puerto rican brought it back? mrs. oswald. in my uniform pocket, because that was all the clothes i had. i kept it in my pocket. mr. rankin. when you washed your uniform---- mrs. oswald. i naturally took it out of my pocket to wash my uniform, because i stated i gave robert the $ bill to pay the hotel. but that was all the clothes i had. you have to visualize that all of this is really rush business. we are doing all this in a hurry. so i didn't even put it in my pocketbook. and i would not be the type to put it in my pocketbook, because it is a $ bill and all the money i have to get out of the hotel--i don't know if i am going to get help--so i want to keep it on my person, just like i keep my important papers right now on my person. i took it out of my pocket to wash the uniform, i know. this can be proven by the bellhop who brought the food. and he went to the drug store, and the drug store was closed on sunday. and we did not get the lotion. and i gave him the $ bill to buy the things with. mr. rankin. and then after you paid the bill there---- mrs. oswald. robert paid the bill. mr. rankin. what happened next? mrs. oswald. nothing was said about the bill. i didn't know then that the representatives had not paid the bill. robert took the $ and checked us out. then the secret service---- mr. dulles. could we have the time when you checked out? mrs. oswald. yes--approximately : to o'clock, on sunday. mr. rankin. can you tell us the amount of the bill? mrs. oswald. yes. since then i have called robert and robert said the amount of the bill was -some-odd dollars--about $ , i believe. that is what robert told me. i have no way of knowing, otherwise than what robert told me. and i would think so. if i remember correctly the rooms were $ . . i told you before that they put us in exclusive suites, and two. and the rooms were $ . . and we had some meals. so that would make it about -some-odd dollars. mr. rankin. and then after robert checked you out, what happened? mrs. oswald. then robert got in a car with secret service, and then marina and i and mr. gregory were in another car, with two secret service agents in the front. mr. rankin. and did you go someplace? mrs. oswald. here comes me again. they wanted to take us--as soon as we got in the car mr. gregory says, "we are taking you to robert's mother-in-law's house." now, they live out of boyd, tex., in the country. boyd, tex., is a little bit of country town. but they live in a little farm house. they are dairy people--robert's in-laws. and they wanted to take us there, which would have been approximately miles from dallas. and i said, "no, you are not taking me out in the sticks, in the country. i want to be in dallas where i can help lee." "well, for security reasons, this is the best place. nobody would ever find it." i said, "security reasons? you can give security for me in a hotel room in town. i am not going out in this little country town. i want to be in dallas where i can help lee." and so i am not being well liked, because all the arrangements was made, that we were going to go to this little farm house. but i would not go. i could not survive if i was or miles away and my son was picked up as a murderer. i had to be right there in dallas. mr. rankin. now, this was after---- mrs. oswald. when they left the executive inn, when we got in the car. mr. rankin. and this was after your son was killed? mrs. oswald. well, yes, but they didn't know this. mr. rankin. and robert didn't know that? mrs. oswald. they kept it from us--i guess being women. marina and i did not even know he was shot. i will go on to that story and tell you. no, sir, we did not know. mr. rankin. the secret service people didn't tell you either? mrs. oswald. no, sir; nothing was said. they wanted us for security reasons---- mr. dulles. if the time is : ---- mr. rankin. they left at or : , i thought. mr. dulles. you said : to . mrs. oswald. approximately that time. mr. dulles. it might not have taken place. mrs. oswald. i know lee was shot. but at this time i am telling you i don't know this. this has to go in sequence, sir. lee was shot, or else we wouldn't have had all these secret service men around. but i know then after that lee was shot. not now--i do not know this. are there any questions? i am willing to answer anything you want to ask. if you will bear with me, i can go into---- mr. rankin. did you later learn at what time of that sunday he was shot? mrs. oswald. no, sir; i did not. mr. rankin. you never did? mrs. oswald. not until about days later. that is what i was telling you about six flags. i am trying to explain to you why i don't know these things is because we did not sit down and watch television and read papers. marina and i--i had two sick babies there. there was a doctor coming in twice a day. i was a very busy woman. and the men were not telling us anything. they were not interested in us. mr. rankin. now, after you told them that you wanted to stay in a hotel, you could be protected there, what happened? mrs. oswald. then, of course, nothing was said that they were going to give me my way. but we needed clothes--marina and the baby needed clothes. so then they decided that they should go to irving, through my suggestion and so on, and pick up clothes for marina and the baby, because we were short on diapers. so they are going to irving. we got to irving. there is police cars all around. so that is why i feel sure my son was shot. mr. rankin. how far away is that from this executive inn? mrs. oswald. i would think--now, this is just hearsay. but i would think it is about to or miles. when we reached there, they brought us to the chief of police's home. and there were cars all around. as soon as the car stopped, the secret service agent said, "lee has been shot." and i said, "how badly?" he said, "in the shoulder." they brought marina into the house. mr. rankin. did you ask him how he knew that? mrs. oswald. it came over--i thought he had the radio in the car, secret serviceman, and he had talked to someone. this was all set up, sir, and i can prove to you. they didn't want us to know. they are now telling us this, marina and i. he talked, and then he turned around and said, "lee has been shot." i said, "how badly?" he said, "in the shoulder." i cried, and said, "marina, lee has been shot." so marina went into the chief of police's at irving home, to call mrs. paine, to get the diapers and things ready. they decided and told us, with me in the car and marina, that it would not be a good thing for us to go to mrs. paine's home and get these things, that marina should go in the chief of police's home and call and tell mrs. paine what she wanted. and one or two of the agents would go and get the things for marina. so i am sitting in the car with the agent. marina is in the home now--remember. so something comes over the mike, and the secret service agent says, "do not repeat. do not repeat." i said, "my son is gone isn't he?" and he didn't answer. i said, "answer me. i want to know. if my son is gone, i want to meditate." he said, "yes, mrs. oswald, your son has just expired." mr. rankin. now, which agent told you this? mrs. oswald. this is the agent that was also now sent to me to protect me in fort worth, tex.--mr. mike howard, who was the agent that rode in the car with president johnson, who was the agent that was at six flags, that was in charge, who was the agent that was assigned to protect baine johnson at the dormitory. he is also the same agent that was sent to protect me in fort worth, tex. mr. rankin. now, who was the other agent that was with you that day? was there another secret service agent with you? mrs. oswald. he went into the home--he escorted marina into the chief of police's home, and i do not know his name. and he is not the other agent that i want to know the name of. wait just a minute. i don't know this man's name. but he is not the other agent that is involved. mr. rankin. now, about what time on that sunday did you learn of your son's death? mrs. oswald. well, now, here is your time element. i said robert and mr. gregory and the secret service were there approximately from : . and i knew nothing about the shooting. and then we had to go to irving and everything. then they told us lee was shot. so now we are bringing up to the time--it all fits in--which was o'clock or : . as a matter of fact, then when i got the news, i went into the home, and i said, "marina, our boy is gone." we both cried. and they were all watching the sequence on television. the television was turned to the back, where marina and i could not see it. they sat us on the sofa, and his wife gave us coffee. and the back of the television was to us. and the men and all, a lot of men were looking at the television. it probably just happened, because the man said, "do not repeat." and i insisted. they gave us coffee. and then it later came out in the paper that--a story about the chief of police, how it was set up for the women, that we should not know. we were to go to his house. there was a story about that from this chief of police of irving. mr. rankin. what paper is that? mrs. oswald. the star telegram paper. all of my papers were taken out of my home by secret service men. while at six flags, they saved the papers for me. we would not let the maids take the papers. and i brought all of those papers from the six flags, from the very beginning, to my home in fort worth, tex. and every piece of paper out of my home was taken. so i did not--believe me, gentlemen, this seems strange, but it was weeks later before i saw the picture of the way my son was shot. mr. blair justice of the star telegram gave me the back issues of papers. and it wasn't until then that i actually knew the tragedy, how my son was shot. because they took all the papers, all my clippings and everything. i was left stranded, without any papers. and until mr. blair justice brought me these back issues, some weeks later, was the first time that i saw exactly the tragic way my son was shot. mr. rankin. was there any discussion between you and marina about this? mrs. oswald. about the shooting? mr. rankin. yes. mrs. oswald. no. we didn't know. i was with marina at the executive inn from the d until the shooting, the th--as i told you. then we left. and from the th to the th, at the inn of the six flags, the agents and my son kept this from us. we did not know. we knew lee was shot and dead. but we didn't know how. we didn't get to read a paper or watch television. we just had snatches of the television. mr. rankin. well, when you both learned that he was shot on that sunday afternoon, did you and marina say anything to each other? mrs. oswald. oh, yes. that is another story. immediately i said, "i want to see lee." and marina said, "i want see lee, too." and the chief of police and mr. gregory said, "well, it would be better to wait until he was at the funeral home and fixed up." i said, "no, i want to see lee now." marina said, "me, too, me want to see lee." they led us to believe that now they have taught her to do like this. but marina has always spoken like that. i have acted as an interpreter for her, as i stated before, for an fbi agent. and she understood me. and he was satisfied that he didn't need an interpreter. so she said, "i want to see lee, too." they didn't want us to see lee, from the ugliness of it evidently. but i insisted, and so did marina. so they could not do anything about it with the two women. so they decided to pacify us. we got in the car. on the way in the car they are trying to get us to change our minds. and he said, mr. mike howard--he was driving the car--"mrs. oswald for security reasons it would be much better if you would wait until later on to see lee because this is a big thing." i said, "for security reasons i want you to know that i am an american citizen, and even though i am poor i have as much right as any other human being, and mrs. kennedy was escorted to the hospital to see her husband. and i insist upon being escorted, and enough security to take me to the hospital to see my son." gentlemen, i require the same privilege. so mr. mike howard said, "all right, we will take you to the hospital. "i want you to know when we get there we will not be able to protect you. our security measures end right there. the police will then have you under protection. we cannot protect you." i said, "that is fine. if i am to die, i will die that way. but i am going to see my son." mr. gregory says--and in the most awful tone of voice, i will always remember this--remember, gentlemen, my son has been accused, i have just lost a son. he said, "mrs. oswald, you are being so selfish. you are endangering this girl's life, and the life of these two children." i want to elaborate on this. he is not thinking about me. he is thinking about the russian girl. i am going to bring this over and over--that these russian people are always considering this russian girl. he snapped at me. i said, "mr. gregory, i am not talking for my daughter-in-law. she can do what she wants. i am saying i want to see my son." and so they brought us to the hospital. and marina said, "i too want to see lee." after mr. gregory said that--"i, too, want to see lee." so then they did leave us at the entrance of the hospital, the secret service men, and then the police took over. we were escorted by the police in the hospital. mr. rankin. about what time was that? mrs. oswald. well, i would not think it would be more than between and o'clock. mr. rankin. sunday afternoon? mrs. oswald. sunday, november th. mr. rankin. and then what happened? mrs. oswald. then mr. perry, the doctor, came down. we were escorted into a room. and he came in. he said, "now, you know the texas law is that we have to have an autopsy on a body." i said, "yes, i understand." and marina understood. marina is a registered pharmacist. so marina understands these things. and marina understood. and he said, "now, i will do whatever you ladies wish. i understand that you wish to see the body. however, i will say this. it will not be pleasant. all the blood has drained from him, and it would be much better if you would see him after he was fixed up." i said, "i am a nurse. i have seen death before. i want to see my son now." marina--as i am trying to say, she understands english--she said, "i want to see lee, too." so she knew what the doctor was saying. we were escorted upstairs into a room. they said it was a morgue, but it wasn't. lee's body was on a hospital bed, i would say, or a table--a table like you take into an operating room. and there were a lot of policemen standing around, guarding the body. and, of course, his face was showing. and marina went first. she opened his eyelids. now, to me--i am a nurse, and i don't think i could have done that. this is a very, very strong girl, that she can open a dead man's eyelids. and she says, "he cry. he eye wet." to the doctor. and the doctor said, "yes." well, i know that the fluid leaves, and you do have moisture. so i didn't even touch lee. i just wanted to see that it was my son. so on the way, leaving the body in the room--i am in the room---- mr. rankin. you were satisfied it was your son? mrs. oswald. yes, sir. that is why i wanted to see the body. i wanted to make sure it was my son. so while leaving the room, i said to the police--"i think some day you will hang your heads in shame." i said, "i happen to know, and know some facts, that maybe this is the unsung hero of this episode. and i, as his mother, intend to provide this if i can." and, with that, i left the room. then we were escorted into a room downstairs, and introduced to the chaplain. i have asked several reporters to give me the chaplain's name, because i wanted to have all this information for you. but you have to realize i just knew thursday. and i have three times as many papers as i have here. so it has been a chore for me to do all of this. but that is easy to find out--the name of the chaplain at parkland hospital. so i asked to speak to the chaplain in private. so i spoke to the chaplain in private, and i told him that i thought my son was an agent, and that i wanted him to talk to robert. robert does not listen to me, never has, and i have had very, very little conversation with robert, ever since robert has joined the marines, because of the way our life has intervened. mr. rankin. did you tell the chaplain why you thought your son was an agent? mrs. oswald. no, sir, but this is what i told the chaplain. no--i am always thinking of my country, the security of my country before i would say anything like that. and i told you why i told the fbi men, because of the money involved, and i didn't know how the public would take this, because they helped a marxist. so i didn't tell him. but i did say i wanted him to talk to robert, because we financially were in very poor straits. and then i wanted my son buried in the arlington cemetery. now, gentlemen, i didn't know that president kennedy was going to be buried in arlington cemetery. all i know is that my son is an agent, and that he deserves to be buried in arlington cemetery. so i talked to the chaplain about this. i went into quite detail about this. i asked him if he would talk to robert, because when i talked to robert about it, as soon as i started to say something he would say, "oh, mother, forget it." so i asked the chaplain to talk to robert about lee being buried in the arlington cemetery. mr. rankin. did he report to you about it? mrs. oswald. no, sir. but he did call robert in. we were getting ready. the police were getting ready to escort us out of his office, and he said, "if you don't mind, i would like to talk to robert oswald just a minute." so he brought robert into the room he had taken me, and stayed in there a little while with robert. so i feel sure that the chaplain relayed my message to him, because we were getting ready to leave, and he asked the police if he could talk to robert. mr. rankin. the chaplain never told you anything more about it? mrs. oswald. no, sir, i have not seen the chaplain since. mr. rankin. did robert say anything about it? mrs. oswald. no, sir, robert says nothing. i have tried to contact robert for important matters, and robert will not talk. lee was left handed. lee wrote left handed and ate right handed. and i wanted to know if lee shot left handed. because on lee's leaves, as i stated, they live out in the country, and robert goes squirrel hunting, and all kinds of hunting. and on leaves from the marines, lee has gone out to this farmhouse, to robert's family house, and he and his brother have gone squirrel hunting. and so robert would know if lee shot left handed, and he would not give me the information, gentlemen. mr. rankin. is robert left handed? mrs. oswald. yes, robert is left handed. i am left handed. mr. rankin. is john pic left handed? mrs. oswald. no, john is not. mr. rankin. but you are? mrs. oswald. yes, sir. now, i write left handed, but i do everything else with my right hand. but lee was more left handed than i am. i write left handed, but i do everything else with my right hand. but lee was left handed. mr. rankin. was lee oswald's father left handed? mrs. oswald. that i do not remember, mr. rankin. no--i am the left handed one. i would say no. now, there is another story. and we have stories galore, believe me--with documents and everything. a gun will be involved in this story, that lee had bought. but i don't want to confuse the committee. that is another part that we will have to go into, that i will have to lead up to. the only way i can do this and not forget things is to do the way i am doing it. and if you have any questions, if you feel the story i have told so far--i would like to know, myself, if i have forgotten anything. it is awfully hard for me to remember everything. if you want to question me, i am more than happy, if i know the facts, to give them to you. mr. rankin. well, you go ahead and tell us in your own way. mrs. oswald. may i have some fresh water, please? mr. rankin. you have never told us about the walker matter. did you know something about that? mrs. oswald. no, i didn't know about that. the chairman. you are going to let her finish this other, are you not? mr. rankin. yes. mrs. oswald. i didn't know about that until it came out in the paper. but i have a story on that. mr. rankin. you want to finish this incident about the gun you are talking about? mrs. oswald. about robert knowing about the gun--i have already said that. about lee being left handed, and he and robert going squirrel hunting. mr. rankin. you said there was another gun matter. mrs. oswald. that is a long, long story. the chairman. i think she has gotten to the point---- mrs. oswald. i got to the point. i finished this story, really, don't you think--about the gun? the chairman. i don't know. mrs. oswald. i think about robert knowing lee was left handed. the chairman. has anything happened since that, that you care to call to our attention, things that you know about? mrs. oswald. on the particular story that i have said this morning--you mean of lee? this is where it gets confusing. representative ford. where did you go after the parkland hospital? what happened then? mrs. oswald. oh, yes. this is interesting. after the parkland hospital, then this mike howard said, "well, what we will do, we have a place, and this is where we will take them." and they took us to the inn of the six flags, which is on the outskirts of arlington, tex. they took us there. and i am assuming that it is a secret service hideout or something, because they had made no arrangements or anything. we just were welcomed right in the inn. they knew where to go. mr. rankin. what happened there? mrs. oswald. well, now, mr. rankin, that is so important--if we are going to recess, i am going to ask not to start that story, because that is a very long, important story to this commission. mr. dulles. how far is that from dallas--the six flags inn? mrs. oswald. well, it is in between dallas and fort worth, tex. it is near arlington, tex. the chairman. we will recess now until o'clock. (whereupon, at : p.m., the president's commission recessed.) afternoon session testimony of mrs. marguerite oswald resumed the president's commission reconvened at p.m. the chairman. the commission will be in order. mrs. oswald, you may continue with your statement. mrs. oswald. on the way leaving, i remarked to mr. doyle that i had forgotten one very important factor in the story. i had in mrs. paine's home, when marina closed the door, and i was in the room--before she showed me the picture--she told me at the police station that they had showed her lee's gun and asked her if that was lee's gun, and she said she didn't know, that lee had a gun, but she could not say whether that was lee's gun or not. but that she knew that lee had a gun. mr. rankin. when was this? mrs. oswald. this was in mrs. paine's home the night of november , when we came from the jail. she told me that she told the police. i am going to explain, because i don't want to be put in why i didn't say it. mr. mark lane had hoped to come before the commission, and he wanted to ask me two questions. he didn't say what the questions were. but i know the affidavit presented to the warren commission passed on that. and so that is why i had put that particular thing off my mind, thinking mr. lane would bring it up. but i immediately told mr. doyle when i left, that mr. lane not being here i should have made that statement. was there something else i told you? mr. doyle. no. i think that was the matter you had mentioned to me, ma'am. mr. rankin. you mean the gun or the picture of the gun? mrs. oswald. no--the gun. the police showed marina a gun--showed marina a gun, and asked marina if that was lee's gun, because marina had testified at the police station, she told me that lee had a gun in mrs. paine's garage, and this was the gun that was presumably used to assassinate the president, that the police had and showed it to marina, and asked marina if that was lee's gun that was in the garage. she said she didn't know--that lee had a gun in the garage, but she did not know whether that was the gun or not. mr. rankin. did you have any discussion with marina about the gun after that? mrs. oswald. no, sir--when she said that, that was it. any comments--as i said before--that was it. now, where did i finish, please, so i can continue? mr. rankin. well, you had gotten to the six flags, and you had heard about your son being killed. and then you had gotten to the parkland hospital. mrs. oswald. we were through at the parkland hospital. mr. rankin. you had gotten through with the parkland hospital. mrs. oswald. and then we got to the chief of police's home in irving. and we finished that. so now we are at the six flags. mr. rankin. correct. mrs. oswald. so the fbi agent took us to the six flags. i was never questioned by the secret service or the fbi at six flags. my son, in my presence, was questioned and taped, and marina was continuously questioned and taped. but i have never been questioned. i had all the papers from the state department, and all of my research from lee's i say so-called defection. and i wanted them to have them. all the papers were at home. i told them i thought i could save a lot of manpower, while they were getting the original papers, because i know that each department in the state department had a reference on lee, and i had the whole thing condensed, and by them having my papers, they could get the picture. they were not interested in any papers i had. they were not interested. mr. rankin. were you not questioned on november , ? mrs. oswald. no, sir. here is what you may have on tape. i insisted so much that they talked to me, because i had all this--that mr. mike howard finally agreed--not d, though. mr. rankin. this is mr. harlan brown and mr. charles t. brown? mrs. oswald. that is the two fbi agents, mr. brown, questioned me in the office. but all they wanted to know is how did i know my son was an agent, and how did i know that he had the money from the state department. and i told them congressman wright knew, and that they would investigate congressman wright. that was a very short questioning. i mean i explained that before. i told them i wanted to talk to the fbi, and i did. and it was the two mr. browns, and there were two other men. mr. rankin. then mr. howard was what date? mrs. oswald. mike howard? mike howard was toward the end, because i was so persistent in them talking to me, that finally he decided he would put me on tape. but i do not consider this questioning. it was the date of the funeral--i remember now. mr. rankin. november th? mrs. oswald. was that the day of the funeral? if this was the day of the funeral--i can tell you why. he decided he would put me on tape. so i started to tell him about my having the papers, and lee's defection. and then robert came out of the room and was crying bitterly. i saw robert crying. wait, i am ahead of my story. you have to understand this. as a family, we separated--not maybe for any particular reason, it is just the way we live. i am not a mother that has a home that the children can come to and feed them and so on. i am a working mother. i do -hour duty. so i am not that type mother, where i am a housewife with money, that the children have a home to come to. so i said to mike howard, "i would like robert to hear this. maybe he will learn something." because robert never did want to know about my trip to washington. he doesn't know. robert never was interested in anything. lee did not want to know about my trip to washington. so i thought well now this is an opportunity, since the tragedy has happened, for mr. robert oswald to know some of these things that his mother has known all of these years. so i started. then robert had a phone call and he came out of the room, and he was crying bitterly. so i ended the tape--i would say i talked approximately minutes. i ended the tape saying, "i'm sorry, but my thoughts have left me, because my son is crying." i thought for a moment that robert was crying because of what i was saying, and he was sorry that he had not listened to me before, because i tried to tell him about the defection and my trip to washington. but robert was crying because he received a telephone call that we could not get a minister at my son's grave. they had three ministers that refused to come to the ceremony at my son's grave--for church. and that is why robert was crying bitterly. so that ended the testimony. that little while i testified, that ended it. mr. rankin. now, that questioning was a question and answer. you were questioned by the fbi agent, mr. howard---- mrs. oswald. no, sir. i was just talking. mr. rankin. the secret service man? mrs. oswald. mr. mike howard. i was talking on tape. mr. rankin. didn't he ask you questions? mrs. oswald. i don't recall him asking any questions. it could be. but i frankly do not recall him asking any questions. but it was a very short session. and that is the way i ended the tape. i said, "my thoughts have left me because i see my son crying bitterly." that is the way i ended the tape. and it was a very short tape. i do not remember him questioning me. i think i started to tell my story. and that is the only time. it was from my persistence that i got on tape just that little while. they did not want to hear anything from me. mr. rankin. you don't think, then, that at that time there were questions and answers for about pages taken from you? mrs. oswald. from me--no, sir. definitely not. if they have that, what they have is my talking, like i said, when i saw on television. they said--they were showing lee's gun. and i was not watching television--i am getting snatches of it, and i said, "now, how can they say, even though it is lee's gun, that lee shot the president. even being his gun doesn't mean that he shot the president. someone could have framed him." if they have pages of that, they have me doing that kind of talking, and had the room bugged, or whatever you want to say. but no, sir, i did not sit and testify. i swear before god times i never have. and that is the point that has bothered me. even before lee's defection no one came along to the house. i called mr. john fain in the fbi myself to make friends with him. if they have pages of testimony--that is when they got it, my talking. they got it with a tape recorder going. but i did not, no, sir. mr. rankin. well, then, what happened after that? mrs. oswald. now--we got off of that. about robert crying? mr. rankin. you said that that ended the interview with mr. howard. mrs. oswald. yes, that ended the interview with mr. howard, because robert was crying. i was not consulted. i want you to know this, too. i was not consulted about the graveyard services or any part of my son's funeral. what i know--when my son was going to be buried--it was approximately hour before the time for my son to be buried. my son robert knew. mr. rankin. do you know whether marina was consulted? mrs. oswald. i do not know. and i am assuming that she was. you see, mr. gregory taught russian to marina. and i believe marina might have been consulted. but i do not know whether she was consulted or not. but i was not consulted. and since then--we will go on to the story. they have put a marker on the grave. i have not been consulted. i have found out my son is encased in cement, and i did not know anything about it until i investigated and asked the man at the cemetery. they did not consult me about anything, never have. i want that made clear--because that is the part i cannot understand. mr. rankin. you don't know whether the laws of texas give the widow the right to say what shall be done? mrs. oswald. well, naturally, she is his wife, and i am just the mother. but from a moral standpoint, what are they doing to me? law and right--but from a moral standpoint, i should go out to the graveyard and see a marker? i should find out from strangers that my son is now in a concrete vault? mr. rankin. well, then, did you go to the funeral? mrs. oswald. well, let me get--we will get to the story of the ministers. mr. rankin. all right. mrs. oswald. now, i was not consulted. had robert asked me--they are lutheran, we are raised lutherans. i have no church affiliation. i have learned since my trouble that my heart is my church. i am not talking against the church. but i go to church all day long, i meditate. and my work requires that i don't go to church. i am working on sunday most of the time, taking care of the sick, and the people that go to church, that i work for, the families, have never once said, "well, i will stay home and take care of my mother and let you go to church, mrs. oswald, today." you see, i am expected to work on sunday. so that is why--i have my own church. and sometimes i think it is better than a wooden structure. because these same people that expect me to work on sunday, while they go to church, and go to church on wednesday night--i don't consider them as good a christian as i am--i am sorry. well--i would not have let robert be so upset trying to get a lutheran minister. if he could not get a lutheran minister, i would have called upon another minister, because there would have been many, many ministers of many denominations that would have been happy to come and help the sorrowing family. well, a reverend french from dallas came out to six flags and we sat on the sofa. reverend french was in the center, i and robert on the side. and robert was crying bitterly and talking to reverend french and trying to get him to let lee's body go to church. and he was quoting why he could not. so then i intervened and said, "well, if lee is a lost sheep, and that is why you don't want him to go to church, he is the one that should go into church. the good people do not need to go to church. let's say he is called a murderer. it is the murderers and all we should be concerned about". and that agent--i am going ahead of my story a little bit--that man right here---- mr. rankin. you are pointing to---- mrs. oswald. this agent right here. you may pass the picture around. mr. rankin. the figure on the left hand of the picture you have just produced? mrs. oswald. yes, sir. i do not know his name. the man had the decency to stay at the far end of the room, near the entrance door, while the minister and myself and robert were sitting on the sofa. and when i said to the minister about the lost sheep, this agent, who i will have a much longer story to talk about, left the group and came and sat on the other sofa--there were two sofas and a cocktail table--and he said, "mrs. oswald, be quiet. you are making matters worse." now, the nerve of him--to leave the group and to come there and scold me. this mr. french, reverend french, agreed that we would have chapel services, that he could not take the body into the church. and we compromised for chapel services. however, when we arrived at the graveyard, we went to the chapel. there is the body being brought into the chapel. there is another picture. here is another picture of the chapel. mr. rankin. before we go on---- mrs. oswald. and the chapel was empty. my son's body had been brought into the chapel, but reverend french did not show up. and because there was a time for the funeral, the star telegram reporters and the police, as you see in the picture, escorted my son's body from the chapel and put it at the grave site. and when we went to the cemetery, we went directly to the chapel, because we were promised to have chapel services. and the chapel was empty. my son's body was not in it. robert cried bitterly. mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, can i interrupt a minute? we will have the reporter identify this photograph that you just referred to, where the fbi agent is in the lefthand corner. (the photograph referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. rankin. the photograph i have just referred to is exhibit , is it? mrs. oswald. exhibit . mr. rankin. and the fbi agent you refer to is in the upper lefthand corner of that exhibit. mrs. oswald. that's right. and this is the other fbi agent, mr. mike howard, who is going to be involved quite a bit. he is the one that was taking care of baine johnson. he is the one that they have now sent to protect me in fort worth. he was the lead man at six flags. mr. rankin. and he stands right behind you there in that picture? mrs. oswald. yes, that is mr. mike howard. mr. rankin. isn't he a secret service man? mrs. oswald. secret service man--they are both secret service. representative ford. that was the point i wanted to make, because she had said he was an fbi agent. mrs. oswald. yes--please interrupt. it is awful hard for me to remember and say things. so i appreciate you doing that. it is a long story. and i have many stories, gentlemen. i have many stories that i am sure you do not have. mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, i'll ask the reporter to mark the other picture with the chapel and the casket as exhibit . (the photograph referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. rankin. can you tell us if exhibit is a photograph showing the removing of the casket? mrs. oswald. the way the men are coming this way, they are leaving the chapel. that is the way i would assume. they are leaving the chapel. but the body was not at the chapel. what an awful thing we went through, gentlemen. mr. rankin. we offer in evidence exhibits and , and ask to substitute copies. the chairman. they may be admitted. (the documents heretofore marked commission exhibits nos. and were received in evidence.) mr. rankin. mr. reporter, i will ask you to mark the picture of the chapel with the casket apparently going in as exhibit . (the photograph referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. rankin. and the picture of the chapel and the casket being placed on a carrier in front of it, as exhibit . (the photograph referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, do you recall that exhibit is the picture of them taking the casket into the chapel? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. and exhibit is apparently a picture in front of the chapel where they are putting the casket on a carrier? mrs. oswald. yes, sir. mr. rankin. we offer in evidence exhibits and and ask leave to substitute copies. the chairman. they may be admitted. (the photographs previously marked commission exhibits nos. and for identification were received in evidence.) mrs. oswald. now, i don't remember if i stated while at six flags that this particular agent identified as being to the left of the picture, while the television was on continuously--i have stated before i never did sit down and watch it, because we were quite busy. and this was published in the star telegram by mr. blair justice, and also on the radio. he was very, very rude to me. anything that i said, he snapped. and i took it for quite a while. at this particular time that they showed the gun on television, i said, "how can they say lee shot the president? even though they would prove it is his gun doesn't mean he used it--nobody saw him use it." he snapped back and he said, "mrs. oswald, we know that he shot the president." i then walked over to mr. mike howard and i said, "what's wrong with that agent? that agent is about to crack. all he has done is taunt me ever since i have been here." he said, "mrs. oswald, he was personal body guard to mrs. kennedy for months and maybe he has a little opinion against you." i said, "let him keep his personal opinions to himself. he is on a job." now, there was another instance with this same agent. he followed marina around continuously. i'm going to make this plain. he followed marina around continuously. the pictures will always show him by marina. we were in the bedroom, and he was in the bedroom. and we were getting ready for the funeral. marina was very unhappy with the dress--they bought her two dresses. "mama, too long." "mama, no fit." and it looked lovely on her. you can see i know how to dress properly. i am in the business world as merchandise manager. and the dress looked lovely on marina. but she was not happy with it. i said, "oh, honey, put your coat on, we are going to lee's funeral. it will be all right." and we had hour in order to get ready for the funeral. i said, "we will never make it. marina is so slow." she said, "i no slow. i have things to do." i am trying to impress upon you that marina understands english, and has always talked broken english. now, this agent was in the room and robert was on the telephone. that is why he was allowed in the bedroom. while marina was complaining about her dress, my little grandbaby, years old--and she is a very precious little baby, they are good children--was standing by her mother. and marina was very nervous by this time. she was not happy with the dress. and marina was combing her hair. she took the comb and she hit june on the head. i said, "marina, don't do that." and this agent--i wish i knew his name--snapped at me and said, "mrs. oswald, you let her alone." i said, "don't tell me what to say to my daughter-in-law when she was hitting my grandbaby on the head with a comb" in front of robert oswald. now, why did this man do these things? mr. rankin. are you saying that the agent did anything improper, as far as marina was concerned? mrs. oswald. now, what do you mean when you say improper? mr. rankin. was there any improper relationship between them, as far as you know? mrs. oswald. no. i am saying--and i am going to say it as strongly as i can--that i--and i have stated this from the beginning--that i think our trouble in this is in our own government. and i suspect these two agents of conspiracy with my daughter-in-law in this plot. the chairman. with who? mrs. oswald. with marina and mrs. paine--the two women. lee was set up, and it is quite possible these two secret service men are involved. mr. rankin. which ones are you referring to? mrs. oswald. mr. mike howard and the man that i did not--did not know the name, the man in the picture to the left. i have reason to think so because i was at six flags and these are just some instances that happened--i have much more stories to tell you of my conclusions. i am not a detective, and i don't say it is the answer to it. but i must tell you what i think, because i am the only one that has this information. now, here is another instance---- mr. rankin. what kind of a conspiracy are you describing that these men are engaged in? mrs. oswald. the assassination of president kennedy. mr. rankin. you think that two secret service agents and marina and mrs. paine were involved in that, in the conspiracy? mrs. oswald. yes, i do. besides another high official. i will tell you the high official i have in mind when we go through that part of the story, if you please. mr. rankin. well, now, could you tell us what you base that on--because that is a very serious charge. mrs. oswald. it is a very serious charge, and i realize that. i base that on what i told you, the attitude of this man, and mike howard's attitude also. now, i have to continue. mr. rankin. have you described that? mrs. oswald. yes. i have to continue. while at six flags, marina was given the red carpet treatment. marina was marina. and it was not that marina is pretty and a young girl. marina was under--what is the word--i won't say influence--these two men were to see that marina was marina. i don't know how to say it. are you getting the point? let me see if i can say it better. mr. rankin. you mean they were taking care of her, or were they doing more than that? mrs. oswald. more than taking care of marina. mr. rankin. well, now, describe what more. mrs. oswald. all right, i will describe it for you. i am not quite satisfied with the way i said that. let me get my thoughts together. i noticed that--and of course as i have testified, the way the man treated me--and i was told he was a body guard for mrs. kennedy. we were at six flags on november th, at lee's death, and on november th marina and i--before november th--marina and i were very, very friendly, very loving, everything was "mama"--"mama has a big heart." and we planned to live together. i had an insurance policy that had expired on lee. i was not able to keep up the premium. and i had $ . but however i had not looked at the policy for some years, and i was not quite sure that it was in force. but otherwise i had no money and no job. i had given up my job to come to the rescue. so i was very anxious to get home and get my papers and let them see the copies of everything i had, and to find out if i had my insurance policy, if it was in force, and also get some clothes. from the th until the th i lived in my uniform, gentlemen. i did not have any clothes at the six flags. yet robert oswald was taken to his home a couple of times to get clothes. and when i wanted to go home and get clothes, they put me off. one time i broke down crying. i said, "i don't understand it. you won't do anything for me, yet you drove robert all the way to denton to get clothes." so the night of the th they took me home, and i got my papers. i found that my insurance policy was in force. so i said to marina, "marina, we all right. mama has insurance policy, $ . you stay home with baby and mama work, or mama stay home with baby and you work, and at least we have a start." "okay, mama. i not want big house, mama. i want small place." and this is the girl that has never had anything, and she only wanted small things. fine. on the date of the d, approximately o'clock--this was in the morning--i want to say something to marina, and marina shrugged me off and walked away. mr. dulles. what date was this? mrs. oswald. the th. that morning i had acted as interpreter for an fbi agent, and mr. mike howard said, "would you like us to get a russian interpreter?" and he said, "no, mrs. oswald is doing fine." and he took the testimony from me as an interpreter. so, you see my daughter-in-law did understand english and answered me in her russian broken english, because the fbi man was satisfied. so when marina shrugged me off, i thought right away that she thought--because i had to use the name lee so many times--that i was hurting her husband, and maybe that is why she felt this way. so i thought maybe i am just imagining things. so i waited quite a while, i would say half an hour. i went to marina again. and she walked away and shrugged me off. so i walked into the living room, where my son, robert oswald, and the secret service were and i said to robert, "robert, something is wrong with marina. she won't have anything to do with me." he said, "i know why. marina has been offered a home by a very wealthy woman"--all of this was done without my knowledge--"by a very wealthy woman who will give her children education, and she didn't know how to tell you." i said, "well, robert, why didn't you tell me?" of course when i said it. i was emotionally upset. i said, "robert, why didn't you tell me?" he said, "because just the way you are acting now." i said, "what do you mean the way i am acting now? i am acting in a normal fashion. you are telling me that you are taking my daughter-in-law and my grandchildren away from me, and i have lost my son, and my grandchildren and daughter are going to live with strangers. this is a normal reaction." "well, that is why we didn't tell you. we knew you would take it that way." and that is the last time i have talked to my daughter-in-law, marina. and that is the rift between marina and i. there is no rift, sir? we were going to live together. but this home was offered marina--and i will present this in evidence. now, mr. gregory is involved--mr. gregory did all the russian talking. they all knew better but me. and i have more to the story. yes, here it is. and there are other offers marina had--other offers. so i was not able to be around marina. the secret service saw to it. and they gloated. gentlemen, i am not imagining these things. these two men gloated of the fact that now marina is going to be fixed--you know, she is fixed financially and otherwise. mr. rankin. is this mrs. pultz? mrs. oswald. i didn't even read this, sir, believe me. this was handed to me by a reporter before i left, saying, "mrs. oswald, maybe these things"--because he knows the story. this has all been published publicly in newspapers, what i am saying. the star telegram could give you all i am saying here. it has already been made public in the paper, all of this. and he handed that to me. i never did see that article until the other day. mr. rankin. this article refers to mrs. oswald being offered a home, and apparently a newspaper account--a newspaper account of the offer, according to this newspaper account--the offer was by a mrs. pultz. that is the one that you refer to when you handed this paper to us. mrs. oswald. yes, sir, that is offering her a home. now, i have not read that. i know she was offered a home by a woman and i will tell you further what i do know about this. mr. rankin. mr. reporter, i will ask you to identify this as the next exhibit. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, the reporter has marked that exhibit , the newspaper article you have just given us, is that correct? mrs. oswald. yes, sir. mr. rankin. i now offer in evidence exhibit and ask please to substitute a copy. the chairman. it may be admitted. (the document heretofore marked commission exhibit no. for identification was received in evidence.) mr. rankin. do you recall the date? mrs. oswald. i left there on the th, so it would have to be the th. it would have to be the th. mr. rankin. now---- mrs. oswald. now, there were other people that offered her homes. mr. rankin. but you seemed to think there was something improper or bad about your son robert wanting to get your daughter marina taken care of in this manner. i don't understand that. can you explain it? mrs. oswald. yes. well--no--as i have explained before, robert and i are not close, we are not close as a family. but robert is a very easy-going person. he is not opinionated, particularly like i am. my older son and lee are my disposition. but because you are a secret service man or somebody, if you tell him something, he will go along and yes you. so he was part of this arrangement. they probably had to have his consent. but he knew of the arrangement with mr. gregory and marina. they all knew it but me. i was not consulted about this at all. mr. rankin. do you think robert was trying to do something bad by it, or just trying to look out for---- mrs. oswald. he thought it was a good idea, that marina should go and live in this home. but i took a different attitude. i am not interested in material things, gentlemen. i then went into my speech, that i thought, as a family, marina and i should stick together and face our future together. i could see no reason--and i made this at the six flags, and have made it public in the newspapers, i could see no reason, no advantage of marina living with strangers. i said that before. i thought it would be better, original idea, marina and i had made, to live in my apartment and do the best we can. and i even said--we have $ to start with, and then if we don't make it "what about you helping us?" "but give us a chance as a family. don't put the girl in a strange home, a russian girl, a foreign girl, taken away from her mama." marina has no mother and father--she has a stepfather. but i was her mama up until this time. and i could not see marina in a strange home. well, i am going to prove this story to you. it is a fantastic story. but as i go along--i have witnesses--and that is why i asked you, sir, i would like these people called to back up these fantastic stories i am telling you. it can be proven, sir. so i had no further contact with my daughter-in-law--once they came out and said what they had planned. i had no inkling of it. that was the--they wanted to keep her and the children away from me. that night, the night of november th--now, we were in a bedroom with twin beds that we shared. they opened the studio couch in the living room, and rolled june's bed, the baby bed in the living room, sir. mr. rankin. what do you mean by "they"? mrs. oswald. the secret service had the maid come in with sheets and everything and they got--opened the sofa into a bed. the secret service rolled the baby bed from the bedroom into the living room. and i knew that i was not wanted or involved. and i have a very dignified way about me. i didn't say a word. what i did--i sat up in a chair all night long in the living room, rather than to be so indignant as to sleep in the bedroom where they had taken my daughter-in-law from me. i sat up in a chair in the living room rather than be pushed aside like i was being pushed aside. mr. rankin. well, now, what secret servicemen were these--mr. howard? mrs. oswald. mr. howard was involved, and this other man. mr. rankin. the same man? mrs. oswald. this same man. and my son is in this, too. robert was part of this conspiracy that they were going to let her go to a home, and they didn't tell me--and mr. peter gregory. mr. rankin. and did they move your daughter-in-law out into the living room? mrs. oswald. yes, sir, she slept on the sofa. and they moved june's baby bed from the bedroom into the living room, by my daughter-in-law. and i sat in a chair. i can do that. i am a nurse, and i can do without sleep. and i had all the papers. i told you that the night before they took me home to get my papers. and that is why i knew i had the insurance money. so i started to work on the papers. and i sat up all night long. mr. rankin. what did marina say about that arrangement? mrs. oswald. there was nothing said between marina and i. the last time i had seen marina was when she shrugged me off, and then this came out why she shrugged me off. i have had no contact with marina since. mr. rankin. now, why do you think there is a conspiracy about this? can you explain that to us? mrs. oswald. about this particular instance? mr. rankin. yes. mrs. oswald. well, i don't say that is a particular instance. but it is certainly a very unusual way to do a thing, a very unusual way--not to consult me. marina and i were friends. she was going to come and live with me. i was going to share my money with her. and then they went ahead and planned all this without my knowledge. maybe you know the answer to it, i don't know. but there was no hard feelings--even now i love marina and i would take and help her any way i can. so i don't understand these things. but i am telling you the way things happen, the way i was excluded. and your secret service agents had part of this. mr. rankin. and you do not think robert and the secret service agents could be acting in good faith to try to just help marina and her children along? mrs. oswald. well, i cannot see from my point of view that it would be good that a foreign girl lives in a stranger's home, a perfect stranger who has come to the police department and offered her a home. we are talking about a perfect stranger. if she is a perfect stranger--maybe she wasn't. i have no way of knowing. but i am going to assume what i read. it would be much better for this girl to go live in this stranger's home than to be with her family? this girl and my grandchildren needed a family, which i was that family. i cannot see that. mr. rankin. what i am asking you is: do you think it is possible that robert was just mistaken when he and the secret service man, if they are involved, thought this might be a good plan. isn't it possible they were trying to do the right thing? mrs. oswald. no, sir, i think it was deliberate. i am sure--i don't think. i am positive it was deliberate. and i will tell you why as we go along. mr. rankin. now, you said you thought it was deliberate. mrs. oswald. i am trying to get everything in, so you can get a clear picture. mr. rankin. well, this plan to have your daughter-in-law go and live with another lady--this mrs. pultz--you said you did not think it could be innocent or in good faith? mrs. oswald. yes--because then this same secret service man, that i don't know the name--now, i may be wrong about this--just a moment. no--this is not the same man. one of the other secret service men had gone to talk to robert's boss, because robert was worried about his job. so this happened in the afternoon. i had no contact with marina. and he came in and in front of me he patted robert on the shoulder and said, "now, robert, i have talked to your boss and you are all right. i assured him you are not involved in any way." so, gentlemen, marina is taken care of; robert is taken care of--i am not feeling sorry for myself, believe me, because i can take care of myself. but here is a mother who has come to the rescue, lost her job, offered her good love and insurance money, and nobody has wondered what is going to become of me. mr. rankin. well, did you think it was improper that the secret service man would go to robert's boss and tell him he was not involved, that there was nothing improper? mrs. oswald. no, sir; i do not. i think it was a fine gesture. and that is the point i am trying to make out. why are these fine gestures to see that marina is going to have a home and be taken care of, and robert's job is secure--but i am nothing. i was not included in the plans. and what is going to become of me? i have no income. i have no job. i lost my job. and nobody thought about me. i don't mean to imply i'm sorry for myself. i am trying to bring out a point that through all of this, that i have not been considered, even as much as to testify. i want to know why. i don't understand why. it is very strange. i packed during the night, sat up in the chair, as i said. so the next morning i am on my way home. i have no purpose to be there. i was helping my daughter-in-law, and helping the children. but now i am out of everything, so i insist on going home. before going home, i asked to tell marina goodby, and my grandchildren, and what they have done this morning--they have taken her out of these quarters and brought her next door, to the other quarters of the inn--it is just one door and a little courtyard to the other door. mr. rankin. what day is this? mrs. oswald. this is the th. so the agent that was taking me home--i'm sorry, but i'm very bad at names, and there were so many agents, it is awfully hard for me to remember it all. i told him that i wanted to tell marina that i was going. he knocked on the door. the russian interpreter from the state department, mr. gopadze, came to the door, and the agent said, "mrs. oswald is going home and wants to tell marina and the children goodby." he said, "well, we are interviewing her, and she is on tape. she will get in touch with you." so i never saw marina after that time. now, what worried me so was what did marina think. what did marina know of this, and what did she think? did she think i deserted her? did they think i left without telling her goodby? this worried me very much. i could picture the girl. what did she think? i didn't even get to tell her goodby. so i tried in vain to see marina. i have called mr. f. v. sorrels over and over and over, and he has never told me that marina did not want to see me. and this, gentlemen, i have proof of. he always said, "well, mrs. oswald, i am not able to divulge where she is" and the regular push-around. he is not telling me plainly i am not going to see marina, he is being very courteous to me, but not letting me see marina--if i am making this plain. and i have publicly blasted that. over and over i have tried unsuccessfully. mr. mark lane, who is representing my son, talked with mr. jim martin and mr. thorne--jim martin is marina's business manager, and mr. thorne is her attorney. and mr. jim martin and thorne have stated to mr. mark lane that marina did not want to talk to me. now, this is approximately a month ago, i would say, when i first engaged mr. mark lane. and mr. mark lane said to me that he was not satisfied, when he gave me the information. i said, "no, i want marina to tell me that." how did i know it was marina's quote? mr. sorrels never told me that marina did not want to talk to me. but this was told to mr. mark lane. but i would not take that as a quote. i wanted to hear it from marina. so we persistently tried to see marina. when i say we, almost every reporter in the city of fort worth and dallas has tried to see marina. mr. mark lane has tried to see marina. mr. olds, who is head of the civil liberties association--i don't know if that's the proper name--in fort worth has tried to see marina. and there have been many prominent people trying to see marina, because they could not understand how marina could be under such strict surveillance that no one could be allowed to see marina. there have been many, many people question this. it has been questioned, why marina would be under strict seclusion for weeks, with not a soul seeing marina. i say not a soul. my son saw marina at christmas time, and probably had seen her before then. his family went with him--i checked with my daughter-in-law, vada, and she said she went with robert for christmas time. it came over the news in fort worth that marina's brother-in-law, lee's brother, would be with her at christmas time, and mrs. marguerite oswald was unavailable for news. gentlemen, i stayed home crying, hoping against hope that the secret service would come and let me be with my family for christmas time, waiting there patiently. i was available for news. i had blasted this in the paper over and over. i waited for them to come get me. but there again, i am excluded. do you know the answers to all these exclusions? i do not. the first time marina ever made any statement or public appearance was approximately weeks ago, or maybe not that long. she was on an exclusive television program. channel in fort worth, tex., when she stated publicly that in her mind she thought that lee shot president kennedy. what an awful thing for this -year-old foreign girl to think. she thinks in her mind. she doesn't know. but she thinks, gentlemen. that tape can be sent back to you. that was her quote. i watched every television program, and i took it down in black and white. "in my mind, i think lee shot president kennedy." she doesn't know our american way of life. lee harvey oswald will be the accused assassin of president kennedy when this information is over with, believe me. she is a russian girl, and maybe they do this in russia. but what i am going to say is that marina oswald was brainwashed by the secret service, who have kept her in seclusion for weeks-- weeks, gentlemen, with no one talking to marina. marina does not read english. marina knows none of the facts from newspaper account. the only way marina can get facts is through what the fbi and the secret service probably are telling her, or some of the facts that marina has manufactured since. i am sorry, gentlemen, but this is a true story. mr. rankin. what do you base your claim on, that marina was brainwashed? mrs. oswald. because for weeks no one has been allowed to see marina. i do not believe in my mind that that is an american way of life. i question the fact that it is even legal, that they can keep her in strict seclusion with no one seeing her for weeks, gentlemen. now, there may be a reason for that. i don't know. but the american people want some answer to that. i have over , letters questioning that. the papers have blasted it continuously. mr. rankin. if she didn't have somebody to look out for her, do you think the various people that wanted to see her would keep her so busy she could not even take care of the children? mrs. oswald. now, mr. rankin, i am not saying, even implying that the secret service should not protect my daughter-in-law. i am grateful for that, and i have expressed it. i am most grateful she has protection. but would there have been any harm for me to talk to marina with the secret service around and let marina tell me that she does not want to see me? mr. rankin. well, let's leave you out of it. what about all the rest of the people that would want--or did want to see marina? mrs. oswald. all right. mr. rankin. and take her time, while she had to take care of the children. mrs. oswald. i agree with that. marina should not see every tom, dick, and harry. i think they are doing a wonderful job in protecting her. but when mr. mark lane, who is an attorney, requested it, so we can solve this, to just let marina tell him that she doesn't want to see her mama, and mr. olds, who is head of civil liberties, was refused permission to see her, then we question it. no, i don't think all the people should see marina. but people are asking these questions, mr. rankin. they want to know why a high official cannot see marina, to satisfy the public's demand. mr. rankin. well, marina had her own counsel at that time, she said. mr. thorne was her attorney. mrs. oswald. yes. now, we will get to mr. thorne. when i first contacted mr. thorne i said, "mr. thorne, how is my daughter-in-law and grandchildren?" and mr. thorne really apologized to me. he said, "mrs. oswald, they are fine. but i am unable to divulge their whereabouts." he volunteered the information to me. and i said, "well, sir; i am not asking where they are"--because i had already--by the time she got this attorney--by the time i had contacted him, we had been fighting this thing to see marina. but he volunteered the information. he said, "your daughter-in-law and grandchildren are fine, but i am not able to divulge their whereabouts." i said, "i am not asking about their whereabouts." i said that i had lee's marine book, which is a big, colorful book, the life of a marine, that lee had sent to me, and lee's baby book; that i had had in my possession ever since he was a baby, that i gave to marina and lee when they returned to russia, and my husband's gold pocket watch i had all those years i gave to lee. so i asked mr. thorne about these things and he said he would inquire about it. i said, "mr. thorne, while i am on the 'phone i do want to bring something up. while i was at six flags, the day i left, the morning i left, is the first time that sympathy cards started coming in, and money. and these envelopes were addressed to mrs. marina oswald and marguerite oswald, or mrs. marguerite oswald and marina, to both." the secret service started to open the envelopes, and there were checks and cash. because of my prior story that they had pushed me aside, i said, "now, my moneys that come in that says 'and mother' i definitely want my share." believe me, gentlemen, i have never received penny. mr. rankin. what did he say about that? mrs. oswald. they said yes--and my son was there when i said that--they said they would divide it. if it was a $ bill and it said the mother of lee and the wife, that i would get and marina would get . so when i talked to mr. thorne i said, "i want to tell you, mr. thorne, while i was at six flags, i know of moneys coming in, but i have never received a penny. but i want you to know that the secret service in my home, because they were in my home from the th until the d"--i believe it was---- representative ford. third of what? mrs. oswald. this would be december. because this was the th of november--approximately the d. the money that came into my home that way, 'mrs. marguerite oswald and marina oswald' the secret service divided right then and there. if it was a $ bill, i got and they took to give to marina. whether marina ever got the money or not, i have no way of knowing. but the money in my home was divided and the share given to marina. but i never did get the share from the secret service at this time. so weeks later---- mr. rankin. how much did that amount to, that was divided in your home? mrs. oswald. very little. my contributions up to now are just a little over $ --about $ . that is the money that has been given direct to me, the mother of lee harvey oswald. so about weeks later--now, mr. lane comes in here. he has all of these documents and all of these dates and everything. i don't know about the dates. mr. thorne--from mr. thome's office and mr. martin i receive an envelope about this size with mail for me, mrs. marguerite oswald--not "and marina"--everyone open, gentlemen--opened, no cash, but checks, made out to mrs. marguerite oswald, that nobody else of course could have any benefit from. this late date. and there were checks way in november, in the beginning of december, that were held all this time. but until i complained, then they decided to send them to me. mr. lane has in his possession photostatic copies of my mail that has been opened by the fort worth police. i had a tip from a reporter that my mail at the mayor's office and the fort worth police and the chief of police was being photostatic copied. so i sent a telegram--and i have these things--you will have everything i have--to each one, the same telegram, saying that any mail addressed to mrs. marguerite oswald should be forwarded to her immediately--to me immediately at thomas place. i received no mail. three days later--i received no mail. so i called mr. sorrels and told mr. sorrels about the tip that i had. and i knew it was a positive tip--i could feel sure this young man was giving me the right information. i had much information that the public knows, that they have helped me in this case, mr. rankin. so mr. sorrels sent mr. seals, i think his name was, a secret service man down and the chief of police gave mr. seals--we have this--my mail opened and photostatic copies. i can produce this evidence. now, what right--i am not an attorney--but we have a moral issue all through this that i am fighting for. if the mail went to the chief of police, mrs. marguerite oswald, in care of the chief of police--it well could be that they have the legal right to open such mail. but they do not have the moral right, because i was an international figure, and everybody knew my address. and the chief of police and everybody else knew my address. and that mail should have remained unopened. how much cash was taken out of those mails? i do not know. and i am not really saying there was. but there is quite a possibility that it was. then i received another package from mr. thorne, and my mail was opened. i called mr. sorrels about that. he said he knew nothing about it. first i called mr. thorne and he said that is the way he got the mail. so then i called mr. sorrells and he said he knew nothing about it. i said, "mr. sorrels, i'm getting awfully tired of this. mr. thorne doesn't know how my mail is being opened. he says that he got the mail from the secret service. and now you are telling me that you do not give the mail to mr. thorne. where does my mail come from opened?" so nobody knows anything, the things that have happened to me. my rights have been invaded continuously--continuously. every newspaper clipping was taken out of my home. three letters from lee, from russia. i offered all my information, as i explained over and over, to the secret service. and while in my home, i was showing them things--because i was proud of the things i have, and i think, gentlemen, when you see everything i have you will see a different picture of this boy. there were three letters taken from my letters from lee. and how i came to know that--a new york reporter had offered--he was going to write a story and had offered to buy three of my letters. i told him he could have his choice. and so he looked through the letters, and i looked through them with him, and i missed these three letters. these three letters would have been of importance to the secret service and to our government. but you must remember, i have offered over and over to give any information i have. one letter stated that marina's uncle was a colonel in the russian army--i may produce this now. is that what we need to do next--the letters? representative boggs. was a colonel in what? mrs. oswald. pardon? representative boggs. one letter said he was a colonel in what? mrs. oswald. that marina's uncle was a colonel in the russian army. would you like to look at these letters while i continue, mr. doyle? mr. dulles. are these the lost letters? mrs. oswald. no, sir, these are letters from lee to me from russia. mr. dulles. i thought you said three were lost. mrs. oswald. yes, three were lost. the one about the russian colonel was lost--that the secret service men took--three letters--that would be of importance for them. but i offered to give it to them. but they were taken from my home. representative boggs. how did you get them back? mrs. oswald. i am going to tell the story, and i have witnesses. so when i missed them, mr. jack langueth, who we can call as a witness, who is a reporter for the new york times, wanted to pay me for letters--he printed the story in the paper with the three letters that he bought from me, three different letters i am talking about now, and printed how many letters i had, including the three letters that the fbi man that marina's uncle was a colonel. he printed the things in the paper. so approximately or days later the secret service man--and i can find his picture probably--came to my home and returned the three letters and got a receipt from me for the three letters. mr. rankin. how much did this reporter offer to pay you for the letters and other things? mrs. oswald. i got $ for each letter. and i have the receipt. mr. rankin. i don't understand yet. you offered to sell the letters to him, or let him have use of them for $ apiece? mrs. oswald. yes, sir. mr. rankin. $ . mrs. oswald. yes, sir. mr. rankin. and then he published them? mrs. oswald. no. yes--he published the letters. it was published in the new york times, the three letters. mr. rankin. then they were returned to you. mrs. oswald. no, he never did take the letters. mr. langueth never did take the letters he bought from me out of my hand. as i told you gentlemen, we went to a photostatic place and the letters were copied, and i kept the originals. he paid me $ . that was printed in the story. but the three letters that the secret service men had, he printed in the story about marina's uncle being a colonel in the russian army. and that is the letter that the secret service man had. mr. rankin. and you did not get paid for those at all? mrs. oswald. no--these are different letters. so they returned those letters to me, the secret service, and i gave them a receipt for them. but they did not ask my permission to take them, or let me have a receipt when they took them. so i am trying to point out the fact that i got the three letters back, i would think, because the story in the paper said that the secret service had these three letters and parts of what they contained. so the three letters were returned to me, and i had to sign a receipt for those three letters. am i making that clear now? may i have some water, please? representative ford. are we going to get these letters in the record? mrs. oswald. yes, sir. let me get the letters in the record, then. mr. doyle. let me go off the record a minute. (discussion off the record.) mrs. oswald. i am not able to go into the defection now, because i am not through with this part. the defection starts an entirely different story, if you want to know the true facts, and it will take quite a while. what sticks in my mind is this one particular letter about marina's uncle. the other two i am not quite sure. representative boggs. what does it say about her uncle? mrs. oswald. well, i have to find the letter, sir. i want to say this, gentleman. and maybe you are not in agreement with me. but all my life i have known and i have thought that a title does not make a man. it may be presumptuous of me that i am accusing the secret service--because they are the secret service. but there are men in our government, and the secret service, who are undesirable, just like in any other organization--let's face it. we have such men as bobby baker, who was a citizen well thought of. charles van doren who was well thought of. mr. fred korth who was under investigation, he was a wonderful citizen. i can go on and on. yet these men turned out not to be the right type. i say this because my son was a self-styled marxist, and a known defector, and that is why his guilt was proven by the dallas police. and my son--had he been a senator or someone in the higher field, maybe they would not have picked him up so fast. now, that is a fact of our way of life, of human nature. having a title doesn't mean that you are the man back of the title. mr. rankin. could we take those letters now and have the reporter identify them? here is the one about the uncle in the army? mrs. oswald. that is one i am sure of. now, i did not finish the story of the woman offering marina a home. i have not finished that story, really. this affidavit that i showed you about the woman offering marina the home the morning of the th--i picked up the newspaper and i read in the newspaper--i will be through with this story in minute. i picked up the newspaper on the th of november and i read in the newspaper where this woman had offered marina a home. so i said to the agent that was sitting up--everybody was sleeping, and as i told you i sat up all night---- mr. rankin. this was , after the assassination? mrs. oswald. . november . it was on the th that i knew my daughter was offered a home. nothing was said where. in fact, at the time i thought she was going to live in mr. gregory's home. i just thought that. i did not ask. i was so hurt, i did not ask. but on the morning of the th i picked up the paper and read this story about the woman going to the dallas police offering marina a home. so i said to this agent, "evidently that is who marina is going to live with." but i did not know. but on the th is when i saw the story of the woman offering marina the home. mr. rankin. now, you have produced a number of letters that you described as being letters received from your son, lee oswald, while he was in the soviet union. mrs. oswald. yes, sir. mr. rankin. and we have asked you if you could identify the three letters that the secret service brought back to you and asked you to give a receipt for. you said it is very difficult, if not impossible, for you to do that. is that right? mrs. oswald. no, sir, i did not say that. i said that one letter i was sure of, because it stated that her uncle was an officer in the soviet union. that letter i am sure of. the other two letters--i would have to go through the letters. i think i could spot them, because it would be of importance to our country and the secret service to know--in other words, it was important for them to know she had an uncle in the soviet union. and the other two letters would be on that order. and i believe maybe i could--i would not want to state a fact that these two letters--i think i would be pretty close to choosing the other two letters as the proper letters. mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, i wonder if it would be agreeable to you if we would identify all of those letters that you received from your son while he was in the soviet union, and then possibly when we recess you could look them over and see---- mrs. oswald. yes, sir, that's perfectly all right. mr. rankin. see if you can pick out the ones you gave a receipt for. mrs. oswald. that is perfectly all right. any way you want to do it is all right with me. mr. rankin. mr. reporter, i will ask you to mark them, and mr. liebeler, will you help in the marking, because the letters are covered with glassine, and it may be hard to mark them with ink. i think by putting those stickers on we can help you. mrs. oswald. not all of the letters have dates. i think by taking the date on the back of the envelope it would be all right. and we had them in order. i don't know if they are still in order. but we had them by the dates. mr. rankin. mr. reporter, i offer in evidence exhibits to , both inclusive, being pictures of the funeral and the casket that mrs. oswald has produced here for the commission, and ask leave to substitute copies. the chairman. they may be so introduced. (the photographs referred to were marked commission exhibits nos. to inclusive for identification, and received in evidence.) mr. rankin. i then offer the various letters that mrs. oswald produced, that she said were sent to her by her son, lee harvey oswald, from the soviet union. and i think it would be better for our record if i briefly state the date that the envelopes bear in each case, so it can be compared with the number. the chairman. very well. mr. rankin. exhibit bears the date of july , , on the envelope. mr. dulles. mr. rankin--is that the american or the russian postmark? mr. rankin. that is the american postmark. mr. dulles. time of receipt in this country? mr. rankin. that's right. now, mrs. oswald, i understand from you there was one letter before the letter bearing the date july , , on the american postmark on the envelope, and you do not have that here? mrs. oswald. i may have it. i have many more papers and documents. i have a suitcase almost full that i have not yet opened. the suitcase was lost. we did not receive it until about o'clock last night. mr. rankin. you have not produced it today, though. mrs. oswald. no. but there is one more letter. it is the very first letter i received from lee. mr. rankin. i call the attention of the commission to the statement in exhibit , "she was living at her aunt's place when i met her. they are real nice people. her uncle is a major in the soviet army." exhibit , dated august , , was the envelope postmarked united states, august , . i also offer that. exhibit , dated october , , with the american postmark october , . i also offer that. in each case, mr. chairman, i ask leave to substitute copies in accordance with our understanding. the chairman. yes. we will make a blanket ruling on all of them when you finish. mr. rankin. yes, sir. exhibit , dated october , , with the american postmark on the envelope october , . i offer it. mr. dulles. did you say and then ? mr. rankin. ' ---- mr. dulles. it is all ' ? mr. rankin. you are correct--october , , is the date on the letter. mrs. oswald. that is incorrect. mr. rankin. and on the envelope it is october , , vernon, tex. mrs. oswald, can you explain that? mrs. oswald. yes. evidently lee put the date incorrect--because i had no contact with lee from the time--i had one contact with lee from the time that he defected to russia. and the only contact was when he was at the metropole hotel in moscow. then the next contact was when the state department wrote me his address, which was july, or june . so where lee put the , i would say it was just an error, because the postmark proves the date. as i have been saying fbi instead of secret service--i mean it is just---- mr. rankin. a slip of some kind? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. dulles. is the letter available, the metropole hotel letter? mrs. oswald. when we go into the defection, i have letters from that i myself have sent to lee and have been returned, and, gentlemen, they are unopened, and i will give you the privilege of opening my thoughts to my son. they were returned unopened, because he was not located. mr. rankin. i might answer your question, mr. dulles. we have a copy of the metropole letter of . mr. doyle. mr. rankin, could i check--your exhibit , the one you called just before this--i gathered that you gave a date of the letter and also a date of the postmark. am i correct--october , , is the date of the letter, and october , , is the postmark. mr. rankin. that's correct. mr. doyle. thank you, sir. mr. rankin. now, with regard to exhibit , which bears the date october , , in error, with october , , as the postmark on the envelope, i wish to call the commission's attention to this reference. "marina's maiden name was prusakova. her aunt and uncle's address in minsk is"--and then the address is set out in russian. and then continuing the same sentence--"they don't speak any english. however, her uncle is an army colonel soon to retire." mrs. oswald. and that i would think would be the letter that the secret service--was one of the letters that the secret service, as i previously stated, had. now, may i say something here? marina uses two names--prusakova and nikolaevna. whether she was married before, or whether she uses two maiden names, i do not know. but i have a record of both names. mr. rankin. i offer in evidence exhibit . representative ford. mr. rankin, don't we have a record of those two names? isn't one her maiden name and the other by her mother--and the other by her stepfather? mr. rankin. that is the record we have. that is what mrs. marina oswald testified to. she testified in regard to nikolaevna. and the other name appears on her papers as the father. mrs. oswald. but now lee has said in one of those letters that her name is nikolaevna. but then when he asked me in one of the letters to get an affidavit of support that marina could come to the united states, that name appeared--nikolaevna. yet there are a couple of letters where he refers to her name as prusakova. and i have it in his handwriting--when he gave me the slip of paper for the baptism he used prusakova--marina prusakova oswald. he did not use the name in the letters. that is what i find peculiar. mr. rankin. the explanation was that the prusakova was the identification of the father, which is often done. and she explained that with regard to the child they did not want to name june lee oswald with your son's name, if you recall--that is your son did not want that. but the russian government insisted that the father's name had to be shown. mrs. oswald. yes, i am familiar with that. i have done research on that. in russia the father's name is used even if it is a girl. now, mr. peter gregory--his name is peter gregory, and his father's name is peter, so his name is peter peter gregory. they always use the father's name as a second name, regardless of sex. so june is named june lee oswald, which is lee's name. and if there were two lees it would be lee lee oswald. that i know of. mr. rankin. exhibit is dated november , , and bears a postmark on the envelope november , . i offer it in evidence. exhibit is dated november d, without any year on the letter itself, with the postmark december , , as the american postmark on the envelope. i offer exhibit . exhibit is christmas greetings and bears the date december , , stamped on the envelope. i offer exhibit . exhibit bears the date december , , on the letter, and bears the postmark date december , , on the envelope. i offer exhibit . exhibit bears the date december th, without any year on the letter, and the date january , , stamped on the envelope. i offer exhibit . exhibit bears the date january d, and the stamped postmark on the envelope january , . i offer exhibit . exhibit bears the date january d, on the envelope, january , , written on the back of the envelope. i offer in evidence exhibit . exhibit bears the date january th, and stamped on the envelope is january , . i offer exhibit . mr. dulles. these are all airmail letters? mrs. oswald. they are all registered return receipt mailed. everything i had to sign for. mr. dulles. nine or days apparently, it took. representative boggs. that is right--about days, each one of them. mr. rankin. apparently--it states "par avion". but this one bears a mark february , , on exhibit , and the letter itself is february , . that is pretty fast. mr. dulles. it must be . isn't there a left out on the other side? mr. rankin. well, it is in handwriting. so that would be pretty fast mail. i offer exhibit . exhibit , dated february , , on the letter, and it is stamped on the envelope as february , . i offer exhibit . exhibit is dated february , , on the letter, and stamped on the envelope march , . i offer exhibit . exhibit is dated february th, without a year date, and the envelope is stamped march , . i offer exhibit . exhibit is dated march th, stamped on the envelope is april , . i offer exhibit . exhibit is dated april d, without a year date on the letter, and stamped on the envelope is april , . i offer exhibit . exhibit is dated may , , on the letter, and is stamped on the envelope june , --it doesn't show clearly what the year is, but there is a , and i take it is . i offer exhibit . the chairman. all of the documents that have just been offered in evidence may be admitted and take the numbers assigned to them. (the documents heretofore marked commission exhibits nos. through for identification, were received in evidence.) mrs. oswald. i don't believe this letter belongs with the letters. may i see it, please? is that a letter from russia? i don't think so, from what i can see from here. mr. rankin. it purports to be, mrs. oswald. i hand it to you. it is exhibit you are speaking of? mrs. oswald. yes. i'm sorry. there was another very important letter of this size that i thought maybe became confused with the russian letters. you will have to forgive me, chief justice warren, but this is quite a big undertaking. the chairman. yes. i just wanted to keep the record straight. it is all right. mr. rankin. i ask leave, mr. chairman, to substitute copies in each instance. the chairman. that may be done. mr. rankin. now, mrs. oswald, will you proceed with telling us how you determined or concluded that there was a conspiracy between the secret service people that you described and marina oswald? mrs. oswald. well, when i stopped--i have to remember where i stopped. now, am i still at the six flags? mr. rankin. the last i recall you were still there. you had also described, if you remember, the offer of mrs. pultz to take your daughter-in-law and provide her a home. you have said that you had not seen your daughter for quite some time, and you tried to communicate with her. mrs. oswald. oh, yes--i was trying to communicate with her. mr. rankin. and you talked to mr. thorne? mrs. oswald. yes--that was where my mail had been opened. and mr. mark lane has my mail and the photostatic copies of the mail. mr. rankin. i think the commission would be very much interested in how you conclude that there was a conspiracy--if you can help on that. mrs. oswald. yes, i can help you. but i have many, many stories. i have to start from the defection. i have a story of lee's life at age that maybe you know about, maybe you don't. and i have many stories, gentlemen. i cannot do all these stories in these hours i have been here today. i have covered quite a bit. i have many stories. representative boggs. why did your son defect to russia? mrs. oswald. i cannot answer that yes or no, sir. i am going to go through the whole story, or it is no good. and that is what i have been doing for this commission all day long--giving a story. representative boggs. suppose you just make it very brief. mrs. oswald. i cannot make it brief. i will say i am unable to make it brief. this is my life and my son's life going down in history. and i want the opportunity to tell the story with documents, as i have been doing. i am not going to answer yes or no, because it is no good. representative boggs. well, you use the expression "defector." i did not use that expression. mrs. oswald. i said "so-called defector." the papers have "defector" and blown it up. the chairman. well, mrs. oswald, you have told us, though, that you believed that mrs. marina oswald and mrs. paine and two secret service agents were in a conspiracy that resulted in the assassination of the president. mrs. oswald. yes, sir. and i also say---- the chairman. what mr. rankin has asked you is what led you to the belief that there was such a conspiracy? mrs. oswald. i can answer that, sir. but just to answer in one sentence---- the chairman. no, you don't have to do it in one sentence. take your own time, but stick to that one subject, please, until we get rid of that, and then we will go to the other things. mrs. oswald. well, it is now quarter to four. and this is a very long story. the chairman. don't worry, we will give you the time. mrs. oswald. would you please consider i am very emotionally upset and tired, sir. i was up until o'clock this morning fixing these papers for the commission. when mr. rankin asked me to come on thursday, they were not in the order they are now. the chairman. you mean you cannot go on this afternoon? mrs. oswald. not the whole story. the chairman. well, give us as much as you can of it, and we will stop whenever---- mrs. oswald. well, i have so far given you enough story to state this as a fact--that i believe--i am saying as i believe, sir, because if i knew who shot president kennedy, i would be more than happy to tell you, and we would end it right then and there. but there is speculation among everyone. so naturally there is speculation by myself, and these stories i have told you are fact. marina became very unhappy with america. this i know for a fact. and then i will say this is part of another story. marina told me at mrs. paine's home that she wrote to the russian counsel to go back to russia because, "lee not get work." now, that is why lee tried to get a visa in mexico. but you see, sir, i was going to tell that whole story of that. but i will answer this--and that is what i based that on, too. it was marina who wrote to the russian counsel for exit visas, and lee followed it up. that is marina having lee do this. and she told me herself. yet she states that lee wanted to live in russia and cuba. but marina wrote to the russian counsel, "mama, lee not get work." so she wanted to go back to russia. she liked america. she wanted to stay here. mr. rankin. about what date was this? mrs. oswald. this was the night in mrs. paine's home. i didn't tell you that, because these other stories are important, and i was going to bring it in for the mexican trip. that is why i think you are confusing me. i'm sorry. but these stories--the way i want to say it, i would not forget anything by going in sequence. this way, when you are bringing me questions from the mexican story and from the defection, you are throwing my mind off. the chairman. what story do you want to get to now? mrs. oswald. i have so many stories. and i have gone through about three or four today, complete stories. the chairman. well, select one of them, please, and let's don't argue about the order. i want you to tell your story---- mrs. oswald. my energy is exhausted, sir. the chairman. i want you to tell your story in your own way. and if this one exhausts you, select another story, and tell that. mrs. oswald. well, can you tell me what short story i can tell, mr. doyle? mr. doyle. why don't you start with--start and tell the members of the commission about your accident and lee's going to russia. mrs. oswald. that is a very long story. mr. doyle. i know. but start it, and if you get tired at all, you advise the commission, and i am certain that---- mrs. oswald. i will have something very important to this commission that i would like to say, that would take up some time. mr. rankin, i spoke with you, i think it was thursday, december th, and i told you that since it was publicly known i was going to appear before the warren commission, that i would like to have protection, as you recall. i did not get protection, sir. and so the next morning i called you, approximately o'clock, in the morning and told you that i didn't have protection, and i was very concerned. and this would have been friday, the second call, and that i was going to the bank, to my safety deposit vault, and get the necessary papers. and i definitely wanted complete surveillance, because the papers were going to be with me in my home, and the public knew i was going to testify, and i wanted that protection. now, you said, you would get in touch with mr. sorrels, sir, and have mr. sorrel's call me, which he did approximately an hour after my request to you that i did not have protection. mr. sorrels called me and said "mrs. oswald, i understand that you want to go to the bank and get your important papers out of the bank, and you have requested protection." i said, "yes. i thought i had protection last night. i woke up o'clock in the morning with all the lights lit, getting papers together and cleaning the house." because the telephone started to ring consistently. i would have never done that if i would have known i didn't have protection. i was leaving myself wide open. so he said, "well, is your attorney in town?" i said, "no, he is not." he said, "may i suggest this, mrs. oswald"--first, he said, "what do you intend to do with the papers?" i said, "the papers will stay with me." he said, "is your attorney in there?" i said, "no, sir, he is an out of town attorney." he said, "may i suggest this. may we get a large brown envelope and put sealing wax on it, and you put the papers in our safety deposit vault." i said, "no, sir, those papers do not leave my hands. i have had an understanding with mr. j. lee rankin that the papers were going to stay with me, and that i would have complete surveillance while the papers were in my home. now, mr. sorrels, i want that surveillance. i am very uneasy." he said, "mrs. oswald"--this was approximately o'clock in the morning--"mrs. oswald, i will not be able to have anyone there before o'clock." i said, "that is just fine." mr. mike howard came out at o'clock. we did some errands. i had to buy some luggage, and a few little things for the trip. then we had supper. and at : we picked up the papers, because on friday in fort worth, tex., the bank opens from to --on friday evening. so we picked up the papers before o'clock. now, i thought i had protection that night. i had protection that night until o'clock. and then i understand that the fort worth police were circling the neighborhood. now, that is not complete protection. i am a government witness, with important papers. and mr. rankin had--i requested protection--suppose someone had come to the door, or just shot through my home? the police circling three or four blocks away is not complete protection. so saturday morning i wanted to go out to breakfast. i kept opening the door and looking through the windows. and i never did see any men circling the neighborhood. there was nobody around. at : this morning i was still doing that. and by the way, a police car passed by and i hailed him and asked him if he could check in the neighborhood for the secret service, if they were circling the neighborhood--because i want to put my garbage out, and i needed to go out, didn't have breakfast. he said he didn't know what the secret service looked like, and he offered to come to the back and put the garbage out for me, which this fort worth policeman did. so at o'clock i called mr. mike howard's home. his wife answered the phone. i said, "i am very uneasy. i don't have protection. i have been looking for secret service men all morning." i was going out on the porch--i was opening the screen door and going out on the porch. there is a school ground opposite my house. and nobody ever came. i was not under protection. so she said, "mrs. oswald, they have their orders." i said, "well, where is mr. howard?" she said, "he is on his way to your home." this was saturday, at approximately : . well, i have it written down. : . so mr. mike howard when i told him that i was stranded, and could not go out to breakfast, and there was things i needed to do, he realized i was very upset, and i had a legitimate complaint, and he realized i was on my way to washington. so in my home he called mr. sorrels, who is a special agent in charge of the secret service and mr. sorrels was not at home. he talked to his daughter. and he said, "it is most important. would you have him call me?" so he sat in my home and waited for the call. about half an hour later mr. sorrels called. he said, "mr. sorrels. i want to know what to do on this particular case?" and there was some conversation back and forth. and it went on back and forth conversation. so i said, "i am getting very upset about not knowing the entire conversation. i want to tell mr. sorrels that if he doesn't have the authority, to give me complete protection, i want to know the man over him, so i can get complete protection." mr. mike howard said, "he heard you, mrs. oswald." so i don't know what went on on the other end of the line. but mr. mike howard was on the spot. he said, "well, mr. sorrels, it is this way. she is going to washington, and mrs. oswald wants to go here and wants to go there. and if we are not around to take her, she will certainly complain when she gets to washington." so i am assuming now--i am speculating, like everybody else--that mr. sorrels probably could have said, "well, let her think she has protection," because mr. mike howard had to come back in front of me, to his superior, and say, "that is no good. she might want to go some place, so we have to be here. i want to know what to do." and then i got protection. now, isn't that peculiar--that i am a witness, with important papers, and supposed to be under surveillance, and i am not getting protection? i would like to know the answer to these things. and mr. rankin himself called mr. sorrels. mr. rankin. i talked to mr. kelley. mrs. oswald. i am sorry--but i knew you had placed a call, because mr. sorrels called me and said you had placed a call. so why didn't i have complete protection? there is a lot of "why's." there are a lot of "why's" that have to be answered. now, the man last night that met me at the airport--there were two secret service men. one of the nbc men, i think it is--i am not quite sure--was at the station. he asked me questions, and he knows about all of this, because he was in fort worth, tex. i would know his name if you would say it. dave benoski, i believe it is. but he asked me a question. he said, "mrs. oswald, have you seen your daughter-in-law?" i said, "no, i have not seen my daughter-in-law since thanksgiving day." "well, is it the secret service who have kept you from seeing your daughter-in-law?" and i said, "yes, it is the secret service who has kept me from seeing my daughter-in-law." which, to me, is a fact. so in the car, with your two secret service agents, one was mr. brown and one was--i am very bad about names--he said, "mrs. oswald, what makes you want to blame the secret service? the time to have blamed the secret service was when it happened." and i said, "i did blame the secret service when it happened. i made a report in fort worth, tex., about that." and i said, "the question was asked me." i answered him truthfully, "yes, that the secret service have kept me from my daughter-in-law." so he said, "well, has it occurred to you that your daughter-in-law doesn't want to see you?" and i said, "she made the statement in washington, the first time i have known of that, from my daughter-in-law's lips, that she did not want to see me." and mr. sorrels never told me. now, again, i don't believe this secret service man had the right to quiz me like he did. i was very upset. mr. doyle can verify the fact. when he came to the hotel i was on the verge of tears, because of this quizzing. the point i want to make--he said, "isn't it true that you have had complete protection by the secret service for the last weeks, ever since the testifying began?" i said, "no, sir; it is not true." now, where does he get the idea i have been under surveillance for weeks? i don't understand these things. mr. doyle. tell them about the defection. mrs. oswald. would you please consider that i can't go any more today? it is o'clock. the defection is a very long and important story that leads into a story where a recruiting officer at age tried to get lee to enlist into the marines. and it is a very important story, gentlemen. and i think you would be quite interested in it for the record. the chairman. we will recess now until tomorrow. mr. doyle, i understand in the morning you have a court appearance that you must make. but you will be available at o'clock. mr. doyle. two o'clock. your honor. the chairman. very well, we will recess now until o'clock tomorrow afternoon. mrs. oswald. i appreciate it, because i was up until late last night trying to get the papers for you. it wouldn't do you any good if i break down. the chairman. well, we don't want to overdo the situation in any way. so we will adjourn until o'clock tomorrow. (whereupon, at p.m., the president's commission recessed.) _tuesday, february , _ testimony of mrs. marguerite oswald resumed the president's commission met at p.m. on february , , at maryland avenue ne., washington, d.c. present were chief justice earl warren, chairman; representative hale boggs, representative gerald r. ford, and allen w. dulles, members. also present were j. lee rankin, general counsel; wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel; john doyle, attorney for mrs. marguerite oswald; and leon jaworski, special counsel to the attorney general of texas. the chairman. the commission will come to order. are we ready to proceed? mr. doyle. if it please your honor---- the chairman. mr. doyle. mr. doyle. mr. mark lane is present as counsel, as i understand, for mrs. oswald. although i have not talked to mrs. oswald about the matter, as i understand it mr. lane represented her from time to time, in one capacity or another in the past. i do not know the particulars. mrs. oswald or mr. lane could better advise the commission about the point. of course my designation was at the request of mrs. oswald to act in her behalf, since there was no counsel of her choice present at the time. the chairman. true. mr. doyle. in view of the appearance--i wonder if it might be straightened out--if mr. lane wishes to enter his appearance in the matter. of course i would immediately respectfully move for leave to withdraw. the chairman. mrs. oswald, what is your wish? mrs. oswald. well, mr. lane is just here for a few hours, chief justice warren. he flew in just for a few hours. he is catching a o'clock plane out. and i thought--he had asked permission just to sit in for these few hours. the chairman. either he represents you or he does not. mrs. oswald. no, sir, he does not represent me. the chairman. then we will excuse mr. lane. mr. lane. mr. chief justice---- the chairman. mr. lane, now really--either you are here as the attorney for mrs. oswald or you are not entitled to be in this room--one of the two. mr. lane. may i ask, mr. chief justice, if it is permissible for me to function at mrs. oswald's request as her counsel together with mr. doyle, just for an hour or two, and then be excused. the chairman. mr. doyle has said that if you are her attorney he is not. and mr. doyle is doing this as a public service. we must respect his views in the matter. mr. lane. i see. i did explain to mr. doyle before i came into the room exactly what the situation was. it was not until now that i understood his response. under those circumstances, i wonder if i might confer with mrs. oswald for just a minute or two. the chairman. if mrs. oswald wants to, she may. mrs. oswald. yes, thank you. the chairman. all right. you may take another room, if you wish. (brief recess.) the chairman. all right. mr. lane. under the circumstances, since i do have to leave and i will not be able to be here for the rest of the afternoon's session and for subsequent sessions--under those circumstances, since mr. doyle will not remain on jointly with me, i will at this time withdraw. the chairman. very well. now, we will continue. mr. rankin, you may continue with the hearing. mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, could you tell us first now, while you are fresh, about this conspiracy that you said that you knew about? mrs. oswald. yes--if you would like me to do it now. i was going to lead up to all the fundamentals, to my way of thinking. i have no proof, because naturally if i did i don't think we would be here. but i feel like there is a lot of speculation about everything. my way of thinking is because the involvement of myself at six flags and the way i was treated, as i have already put into the testimony, and as i stated yesterday, also, that i was supposed to be under protective custody, and i was not. i wonder why i didn't have protective custody, why i am not important enough, with papers out of the vault, and appearing before the hearing, that mr. sorrels, head of the secret service, didn't give me protective custody, even though you, yourself, mr. rankin, required it. these are the things i have to face that to me are very unusual. mr. rankin. well, it is such a serious charge to say that these two secret service men and your son and--i didn't understand for sure whether you included anyone else in your charge--were involved in a conspiracy to assassinate the president. mrs. oswald. no, no---- mr. rankin. and your daughter-in-law. mrs. oswald. that is not my statement. i said i thought that we have a plot in our own government, and that there is a high official involved. and i am thinking that probably these secret service men are part of it. now, i didn't say in a conspiracy--make it as strong as you did. i have made it strong. but i am under the impression that possibly there is a leak in our own government. and when i come to these papers--and i specifically yesterday morning asked about senator tower. now, i am not throwing any reflection on senator tower. but he made the statement in the paper that he had a letter from the state department saying that lee had renounced his citizenship. now, you see, i don't have that paper with me. i had it yesterday morning. but his whole quotes--the dates and everything of the letter that he was supposed to have had is not in correspondence with the dates that i have from the state department papers which you gentlemen know that i have all these papers from the state department. nothing corresponds with what i have. so i wanted to know and see this letter that senator tower claims he has. it could have been that it was an error in newspaper reporting, and i will say in slang he could have shot his mouth off, because he said he would not help the boy when the boy wrote him the letter. representative ford. mr. chairman, i saw the letter that lee harvey oswald wrote to senator tower the day after the assassination. and i believe i also saw the response that he received from one of the agencies of the federal government. senator tower had the original of the letter. if it is not in our commission files, i am sure it is available for the commission files--along with, whatever exchange of correspondence he had with the department of state concerning the matter. mrs. oswald. well, now, what is of utmost interest to me in this particular case is if there is such a letter, and it does not correspond with anything that i have, i would like to know who in the state department wrote this particular letter. representative ford. i would not know who in the state department wrote the letter. i would suspect it was the assistant secretary for congressional affairs, fred dutton, i believe. mrs. oswald. i am not suspecting, because i have many, many letters from the state department, and i also have something else that i will present that maybe would be another party involved. there is very conflicting testimony. you must realize that i went to washington in and was in conference with three officials. and this was another administration. now, i don't know much about politics, gentlemen. but i do know a little from the news. lee's defection was in one administration--right? and now this is of another administration, the kennedy administration. and there could be a leak in the state department. that is not impossible. so i have two instances that i, myself, am not satisfied. mr. rankin. a leak is so much different from a conspiracy to assassinate the president, though. mrs. oswald. yes, but this leak this could be the party involved in the assassination of the president--the high officials i am speaking of. i cannot pin it down to one sentence, gentlemen. mr. rankin. well, you named the secret service men, two of them. mrs. oswald. that is right. mr. rankin. now, do you have anything that shows you that either of those men were involved in the conspiracy to assassinate president kennedy? mrs. oswald. i will answer that emphatically no. what i have stated is the way they treated me, sir. i elaborated the way these two men treated me--correct? i did that testimony yesterday. so i have to consider these two men. i will put it that way. mr. rankin. let's consider marina oswald. do you have anything that will show that she was involved in any conspiracy to assassinate president kennedy? mrs. oswald. i feel like marina is involved and also mrs. paine, yes. mr. rankin. now, what do you have in that regard? mrs. oswald. all right--because marina--now this i have said to mr. jack lengett, who is a new york times newspaperman a long time ago. and i was ashamed to say it to anyone else. and i didn't tell it to him for a long time. the story yesterday at the six flags, when i said to you marina shrugged me off, and the second time she shrugged me off. the second time she said--and i would not say it now unless i had told mr. jack lengett--she said, "you no have job." in other words, since marina was being offered a home, then you go to--"you don't have job." before she was satisfied to take $ and live with me. i was giving her my money and giving her my love. and then, "you no have job." i am trying to show you the disposition of my daughter-in-law. i love her. but i am trying to show you that there is two sides. i told you how she hit the little girl with the comb. "mama, i no need you, mama. you don't have job." mr. rankin. why does that show she was involved in any conspiracy? mrs. oswald. because i am going to try to show there is discrepancies all along. she was not supposed to speak english. i testified that i, myself, questioned her for an fbi agent. i acted as interpreter. so marina did know english and understand english. so that is a question. mr. rankin. i thought you said she spoke broken english. mrs. oswald. broken english. but she is not supposed to speak english at all, until now that she has learned english. that has been publicized over and over. mr. rankin. and you think she could understand english fluently? mrs. oswald. yes, sir. i also told you when she lived with me that month in my home, how we conversed and talked. and yet the impression is that marina came here and didn't speak english at all. mr. rankin. how does that show she conspired to assassinate the president? mrs. oswald. because marina now is not happy. marina was very happy, i explained to you, the month she was with me in the beginning that they had rented this house. and then marina made friends, very, very many friends. and marina became discontented with lee. lee could not give her the things she wanted, what he told her about america. and marina now has become discontented with me. i don't mean now--i mean at the six flags. mama always had a big heart. i quit a job to help these children, and that is perfectly all right. that is my nature. but then, when she has somebody else, you are pushed aside. i am trying to show this. and, as i go along--i cannot help but face this, gentlemen, it is a fact. i cannot help but face these things. so i am under the impression--and this is speculation, like anything else--circumstantial evidence, let's say. i am just a layman. that is what you have against my son. nobody saw him with a rifle shoot the president. so you have mostly circumstantial evidence. i have to think of all these things, who might be involved in this. the secret service men, surely you will admit, did not guard our president properly. now, that was also stated in the newspaper by, i think it is, secret service judge baughman--am i saying that right? he is the one that--how lee got out of the building, and why the president--there are many, many people that wonder. so i, too, am wondering. so i say that president kennedy was improperly guarded. and i am not the only one that says that, sir. so i have to consider that. i have to consider the way i, myself, was treated at six flags for the three days. when i came here today--i have these notes, something very important about that particular incident at six flags, to back up my story with a witness. you don't have to take my word for it. mr. rankin. what else is there now in regard to marina that caused you to think she conspired to kill president kennedy? mrs. oswald. yes--because everything is laid out in mrs. paine's home and marina's home. the gun was in the garage. mr. rankin. well, that doesn't make marina do it, does it? mrs. oswald. no, but marina told the police that the gun was there the night before. she saw the gun in the garage the night before. she didn't see lee take it that morning. but she made a statement that she saw the gun the night before. the pictures of lee with the rifle came from that home. if lee is going to assassinate the president or anybody else, is he going to have photographs laying all around with the gun? no, sir. and there is too much evidence pointing to the assassination and my son being the guilty one in this particular house. all through the testimony, sir, everything has come from this particular house. and so i am a thinking person, i have to think. mr. rankin. why does that show that marina had anything to do with the conspiracy? mrs. oswald. well, we are speculating, let's say. marina is not happy. lee can't give her any money and things. and she has made friends with these russian folks that have cars and homes. and they are not happy because this russian girl doesn't have anything. they are not happy about that. and i am trying to show the disposition of the girl. i love my daughter-in-law even now. believe me, it is a sore spot to have to say this. but i have to face these facts of what i know. mr. rankin. you realize it is a very serious charge. mrs. oswald. yes, sir. and it is also a serious charge that my son is the assassin of president kennedy. you see, we have two sides here. it is a very serious charge, because no one saw him shoot the president. and yet this is an international affair. and the conclusion has come to the conclusion that lee harvey oswald has shot president kennedy, and he alone. lee harvey oswald, or mr. j. lee rankin, or anyone in this room could not have been in that many places in minutes time. it is utterly impossible. and this has been gone over by hundreds of people. there are investigations. i have , letters, sir--not just letters of sympathy--people that are investigating this. and i don't read all thoroughly, and i am a layman. but he step by step has been taken, from what the reports said--that he was on the sixth floor, and then they saw him in the cafeteria drinking a coca cola, and the president came. then he had to leave the building. he had so many blocks to walk before he caught a bus. he had to board the bus, he had to pay his fare, he had to get out of the bus, then he walked a few blocks, then he caught a taxicab, paid the taxi man, then he walked a few blocks, went to his home and got a coat. then he walked a few more blocks and shot the policeman. then he walked a few more blocks and he was in the theater. in minutes time it cannot be done. so i am convinced my son, and my son alone, if he is involved--i am a human being, and i say my son could have shot the president, and he could have been involved. i am not the type mother to think that he is perfect and he could not do it. but i say he did not do it alone--if he did it. because it is utterly impossible. and i do not believe my son did it. i think my son was framed because, gentlemen--would his rifle be in the sixth floor window of the depository--unless you want to say my son was completely out of his mind. and yet there has been no statement to that effect. wade has publicly said on the television when it happened that he is sane, he is well reasoned, he knows what he did. and lee never did break, with his black eyes. he kept saying he was innocent. and yet in hours time he was proven guilty. that doesn't make sense to me, an ordinary layman. so i have to consider who is involved. now, i am telling you that this girl was not happy with her situation. she had turned against me twice. you, yourself, yesterday said that she testified that i told her to tear up the picture. god give me the grace--i did no such thing. my testimony is true. so now she has lied there, i have found out. and every evidence of any importance has come from this house. i have to face that. mr. rankin. what else do you have that shows that she had any part in the conspiracy to assassinate the president? mrs. oswald. yes. i am under the impression that probably she--i think lee is an agent. i have always thought that, and i have as much circumstantial evidence that lee is an agent, that the dallas police has that he is a murderer, sir. mr. rankin. what do you base that on? mrs. oswald. well. i am going to tell my story. i have it all there. that is what i base it on. mr. rankin. can you tell us in summary? mrs. oswald. no, sir, i don't think i want to tell it to you that way, because i cannot, almost. mr. rankin. that is a very serious charge, that he was an agent, too. mrs. oswald. well, fine. so all right. if i feel that way, sir, don't i have the right, the american way, to speak up and to tell you what i feel? isn't that my privilege? mr. rankin. yes. but can't you tell us what you base it on? mrs. oswald. yes, sir, i will, as i go along, sir. mr. rankin. is that the only way you can tell it? mrs. oswald. i don't see how i can say to you i know he is an agent, and i have papers. i want to tell the whole story. i still have more papers. i have documents that i know you do not have, sir. mr. rankin. have you told us all that you know that would bear on your claim that marina oswald was---- mrs. oswald. had a part in it. mr. rankin. had a part in it or conspired to assassinate the president? mrs. oswald. yes, sir--i cannot prove it. and i cannot prove lee is an agent. i cannot prove these things. but i have facts that may lead up to them. i cannot prove it, because if i did we would not be having this commission, sir. i could say who shot president kennedy. mr. rankin. so in both cases of the agent--lee being an agent, your son, and marina oswald and the secret service agents or anybody else conspiring with him for the assassination of president kennedy, that is just suspicions. you cannot prove it--is that right? mrs. oswald. i would not use the word suspicion, because i am not the type person to be suspicious and imagine things. you may think so, because i am a woman. and this is my son. but my children were never tied to my apron strings. and i can prove to you, in his defection in , i made the statement that lee, as an individual, had the right to think and do what he wanted to. they even said he was a communist. if that is what he studied, and that is what he wanted to do, i accepted that, because that was his privilege as an individual. and that is public in , my statement, which shows that i am not the sobbing mother kind because he has gone to russia, and cry about it. i acknowledge that. i have acknowledged that if the children, like lee, went to dallas, as i testified that yesterday, and didn't tell me he was going to dallas--i don't grieve and lose my sleep over that. i have accepted that fact, because when lee and marina got ready to come to me that would be fine. in the meantime, i still have to live. mr. rankin. are you telling the commission that your son was part of a conspiracy to assassinate the president? mrs. oswald. i am saying that i realize that my son could possibly be part--yes--i realize he is a human being and he could possibly be in this, yes, sir. mr. rankin. are you saying he was? mrs. oswald. no, i do not know. i am saying possibly he is involved. mr. rankin. and you are saying possibly marina was involved? mrs. oswald. well, exactly what i am trying to say. if i had proof, sir, i would give the proof in an affidavit and this case would be closed, like mr. wade said. but i have as much right to my way of thinking as mr. wade has. mr. rankin. you are saying that possibly the secret service agents were involved, too? you don't have any proof of that? mrs. oswald. that is exactly what i have been trying to say. i have told you how i was treated, which has given me cause for this particular way of thinking--because i believe that my son is innocent. and i think that is the purpose of this commission, is to hear all witnesses and arrive at a conclusion. am i not right, gentlemen? so this is my way of thinking. so grant me my way of thinking. if i am wrong, fine. but you may learn something. mr. rankin. what about the high official now. can you tell us who that was? mrs. oswald. no, sir. i wish i did know. i have my own idea about that. i would rather not--because it is a high official--i would rather not give a name. but i have my own very strong suspicions as to the official who he might be. mr. rankin. we would appreciate your telling us within this group what you think. mrs. oswald. fine--and i expect to, mr. rankin. i am a person that is very outspoken, as you know by now, and i will certainly do that. but will you grant me the privilege first of finding out the name of the man in the state department that wrote the letter to senator tower, because it is an incorrect--it is incorrect--the whole testimony is incorrect. mr. rankin. we will get that correspondence for you. mrs. oswald. all right. i was going to go into something else, but while we are here, i will continue this. and this, to me, will be in this line. and i think very important to you gentlemen. and you do not have a copy of what i am going to show you. i am the only person that has this copy. i am sorry to take time, but these were not copied, sir. we sealed them up, and we were going to have them copied this afternoon. but i can get to this particular one. this is the defection. i have much more testimony than this. i have testimony, sir. mr. rankin. do you think that you can tell us the name of the high official you spoke about? mrs. oswald. yes, i think so. and i am going to tell you. but please do not ask me at this particular moment. i do not think this is the proper time for me to--it is just--i have no proof. understand? as i said, it is my right to think and my analysis of the papers i have. i have papers where i can come to a conclusion, just like you gentlemen are going to have papers and witnesses and come to a conclusion. now, this particular instance---- mr. dulles. i wonder if we could not possibly explore that agent matter. i am very much interested in that. i cannot be here tomorrow. we laid all the groundwork for that. the chairman. mr. dulles would like to know her reasons for believing that he was an agent. mrs. oswald. yes, sir, i have two very long stories. mr. dulles. i have to be absent, unfortunately, tomorrow, so i would like very much to have it. mr. rankin. if you could go into that question, mrs. oswald, because mr. dulles is not going to be here tomorrow. mrs. oswald. we have everything just so, and yet when we come here we don't have it. the international rescue committee is what i am looking for. i have also the original application from the albert schweitzer coming that you gentlemen do not have. the chairman. let's stay on one thing, please. mrs. oswald. all right. i am a little excited now, because i meant to go story by story. gentlemen, i have at least four more stories to tell--two i don't think there are some parts you possibly can know about. mr. rankin. well, if you could tell about why you think your son was an agent, it will help to get that taken care of this afternoon while mr. dulles can be with us. that is why i asked you that. mrs. oswald. yes, sir. we have a special file. you see, gentlemen, all morning long i was in the backroom and we were copying things. we had everything just so. so now i don't know what condition they are in. mr. doyle and i worked on the papers again last night and we had them just so. and then when they were copied, evidently they were mixed up again. mr. rankin. we tried to have you present so that would not happen. mrs. oswald. i guess you didn't accomplish that. mrs. oswald. well, they did take it into the other room, and we saw that they took it. well, i can be telling the story about it. it is the international rescue committee, and a telegram. i received a letter from lee--this is going to be real short, chief justice warren. it is going to continue this one story. and then i will go into the defection--is that right--because this will continue that. a letter from lee asking me to go to the red cross in vernon--i was on a case there--and asking me to show the letter to the lady at the red cross. and this is from moscow. this is the letter from moscow. and telling her that all exit visas and everything had been documented and he is ready to come home, but he needs help financially to come home. evidently you have that information. that i know, sir. mr. rankin. yes. mrs. oswald. so when i entered the vernon red cross--now, this came with lee's letter, chief justice warren--the letter you have there direct from moscow. that is why i have it, sir--because it was in lee's letter asking me to go to the red cross in vernon. so i have the original from moscow. i told the young lady, showed her the letter and showed her the paper. and i said, "would you find out, please, the address of the international rescue committee? my son is in russia and asked me to contact you." she said, "what is your son doing in russia?" i said, "i don't know." "you are his mother and you don't know what he is doing in russia?" i said, "young lady, i said i do not know what he is doing in russia." "well, i think anybody goes to russia doesn't need any help to get back, they should stay over there." so i said, "i am not interested in your personal opinion. i need help. would you please contact, give me the address of the international rescue committee so i can continue to try to get money for my son to come home?" she did not know of any address for the international rescue committee. i asked her if she had a private line to wichita falls, which was approximately miles away, which would be the next big city. she called wichita falls, and they did not know the address of the international committee. so i called robert and told robert what i had and asked him to try to find out the address of the international rescue committee. however, he gave me no satisfaction. now, i sent a telegram--and you know this part of it--to the state department, asking--i told them i was in a small town, vernon, tex., and i had received a letter from lee asking me to get the address and help from the international rescue committee. but being a small town i had no success--could they help me out? so they sent a telegram back with the address of the international rescue committee. that you have. and this is lee's letter--that goes with the other part. now, this young lady was very, very regalish. she didn't want to help anybody going to russia. so when i received the telegram from the state department, it was on a saturday. i called her that morning. i was delayed or days. and to me it was very important, since my son and daughter-in-law had all documents finished with to get the money to come home, because i wanted that baby to be born here. so i called her at her home and told her that i had the address from the state department of the international rescue committee, and would she be so kind enough as to come to the office and write the letter for me. she said, "well, mrs. oswald, i don't have a key." this is on a saturday morning and she is in the courthouse. i said, "do you mean to tell me you are in charge of the red cross and you don't have a key?" "no, i don't." "well, young lady, you have delayed me days, and i don't like your attitude. i am going to ask you especially to make a point to come to the office and get this in the mail for me. it is very important." so, reluctantly, after much persuasion, she came. so she wrote the letter to the international rescue committee, and handed it to me, and i mailed that letter--i mailed the letter. this is dated january , . so she called me--her name--mrs. harwell. she is the only woman in the red cross office in vernon, tex. she called me and told me she had received word from the international rescue committee. she read me this letter. so i said to mrs. harwell, "do you mind if i take the letter, because i am very forgetful?" so she took a scissors, gentlemen, and she cut this part out, which was her title and her address--it was addressed to her. this lady wanted no part of anybody in russia--understand? so she cut this out. but on the back page was the name. but that is why this space is here--she cut it out. now, the letter reads: "since we had a call from the state department on mr. oswald's case, your communication of january th did not come as a surprise." so this young lady has followed up with a letter of her own to the international rescue committee. "since we have had a call from the state department, your letter does not come as a surprise." i mailed the first letter, and it was just--so she followed up her feelings about a boy in russia. now, why does the state department dicker with me--that is not the word--and then see fit to put in a personal call to the international rescue committee? i would like to know who from the state department called the international rescue committee. there is my information there that i requested. why is a call necessary? mr. rankin. you think that shows there was a conspiracy? mrs. oswald. i am wondering and questioning why a call is necessary, a call, when they had contacted--and i am showing you what i have here. i don't see any necessity of the state department to call the international rescue committee. and, gentlemen, you have a copy of this--lee will not be helped. i would like to know who called the international rescue committee from the state department--yes, sir, i would. mr. rankin. yes, but you don't think that shows there is a conspiracy? mrs. oswald. well, no--now. mr. rankin, don't pin me down everything i say to the word conspiracy. i am trying to analyze a whole condensed program of things that are not correct. i am telling you about this. it could be just a simple thing, that he called. but i would like to know who called when it wasn't necessary to make a call, and lee was not going to get the money. read the letter. mr. rankin. the reason i ask you about the conspiracy is because that is such a serious charge. and, as you say, if you could prove that, that would decide everything around here. mrs. oswald. that is right. and i am going to see if i cannot show you these things. mr. rankin. if you are speculating, which you have a right to do, that is something different. mrs. oswald. well, i have explained that i am speculating, that i have all these documents, that some of them don't make sense. that is what i am trying to tell you. i mentioned that before. mr. rankin. you are not trying to say to the commission that you have the proof that there was a conspiracy? mrs. oswald. i have emphatically stated that i do not have the proof, because if i had the proof i would have an affidavit and give you gentlemen the proof. i made that clear two or three times. i wish i did have the proof, sir. i think i said yesterday--it doesn't surprise me that there may be someone in our state department or some official who would have part in this. he is a human being just like we are. he may have a title, but that doesn't make him a man back of the title. mr. dulles. what is this conspiracy now, mr. rankin? is this the conspiracy to do away with the president, or is this a different conspiracy? mr. rankin. the conspiracy i was asking about was the conspiracy, she said, about the assassination of president kennedy. and she said that it involved the two secret service agents and her daughter-in-law and her son. that is the one i was asking about. the chairman. and mrs. paine. mrs. oswald. and mrs. paine. i feel like the facts have come from this particular source. mr. rankin. now, as i understand she says now that she is speculating as to that being a possibility. mrs. oswald. well, now, mr. rankin. i have not changed my testimony, if you are implying that. i may not have put it in a position you understood. because as i say, i certainly did not mean to imply that i had proof, because if i had proof i would not be sitting here taking all my energy and trying to show you this little by little. i would have had an affidavit and show you the proof. so if you want to call it speculation, call it speculation. i don't care what you call it. but i am not satisfied in my mind that things are according to hoyle. and i believe that my son is innocent. and i also realize that my son could be involved. but i have no way of knowing these things unless i analyze the papers that i have, sir. mr. rankin. the commission would like to know what you base your assumption that your son was an agent on. could you help us? mrs. oswald. would you like me to go into this story--i will start with my son's life from the very beginning. mr. rankin. can't we get down to---- mrs. oswald. no, sir, we cannot. i am sorry. this is my life. i cannot survive in this world unless i know i have my american way of life and can start from the very beginning. i have to work into this. i cannot answer these questions like in a court, yes or no. and i will not answer yes or no. i want to tell you the story. and that is the only way you can get a true picture. i am the accused mother of this man, and i have family and grandchildren, and marina, my daughter-in-law. and i am going to do everything i can to try and prove he is innocent. mr. rankin. well, now, mrs. oswald, you are not claiming before this commission that there was anything back at the beginning, at the early childhood of your son, in which you thought he was an agent? mrs. oswald. yes, sir--at age . mr. rankin. well, why don't you start with age , then. mrs. oswald. well, aren't you gentlemen--i have a letter from you, mr. rankin. aren't you gentlemen interested in my son's life from the very beginning? i think you should, because it has been exploited in all the magazines and papers. and this is not my son is what i am trying to say. he is not a perfect boy, and i am not a perfect woman. but i can show a different side of lee harvey oswald, which i hope to do to this commission. mr. rankin. well, i plan to ask you about his early life and these other parts. but i thought it would be helpful if you would be willing to do it to tell the commission, while mr. dulles is here, what you base this claim upon that your son was an agent of the government. mrs. oswald. yes, and i would be happy to do it. mr. rankin. if you have to go to when he was years old as the first point, that will be fine. but if you could cover that--then we will go on to the other things. mrs. oswald. all right. i have your word that you will let me have my life story from early childhood and lee's life story from early childhood. now, i will start from age . is that satisfactory? mr. rankin. would you do that? mrs. oswald. thank you very much. we were in new orleans, la., at this particular time. on or about october th or th--and you have this, gentlemen, as my proof, that i am telling a true story, and i will have witnesses that will be called--is a letter---- mr. dulles. what year, mrs. oswald? mrs. oswald. i said --i am sorry. . no, wait now. --when we left new orleans is . am i not correct? i am a little excited now, because of what happened before. the note---- mr. rankin. he joined the marines in . does that help you? mrs. oswald. no, sir. wait. we have a note from the beauregard school by me that i was going to san diego. do you have the note? mr. rankin. we do. mrs. oswald. may i see that note, please? and that is approximately october th or the th, i think it is, . mr. dulles. i think you moved to fort worth with lee in september . mrs. oswald. yes, sir. so it was in ' . i think that is correct. let me see. mr. rankin. we are handing you this book that we received from the state of louisiana that is commission's exhibit no. , and turn to page and you will find the note you referred to. mrs. oswald. to the school. all right, gentlemen, this is a surprise. this is my note, isn't, to the school, that i am moving to san diego. and it has been blasted in all the papers how i moved around, and i was going to san diego. gentlemen, i had nothing to do with this note, nothing whatsoever. lee, my son, wrote the note--on or about october th or the th--october th. and now comes the story why he wrote the note. if you will see here, this is lee's handwriting, to the letters. mr. rankin. we offer in evidence that note on page . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , and received in evidence.) mrs. oswald. i had nothing to do with this note. now, i am working at kreeger's specialty shop, and something canal street in new orleans, la. i received a telephone call from the principal of the beauregard school saying. "mrs. oswald, i understand you are going to leave town, and we are awfully sorry to lose lee." of course now, gentlemen, i am working and this is news to me. so i said--i kind of went along with it a little bit. lee came into this shop later on that day. miss lillian new, i think her name was, who is manager of kreeger's shop, and has been for years--she will witness this. he said, "mother, i have quit school." mr. rankin. you say when the school authorities asked you, you sort of went along with it. what do you mean by that? mrs. oswald. when the lady called me and said that, "i understand you are leaving town, mrs. oswald." mr. rankin. what did you say? mrs. oswald. well, because there was a switchboard, and my job was in jeopardy, i don't know the exact words, but i said--i had to be kind of vague about it and not discuss it. i knew i wasn't leaving town, sir. mr. rankin. did you tell her you were not? mrs. oswald. no, i don't think i told her. but i had to be very--i would lose my job if they thought i was leaving town. it was news to me. so lee that afternoon, from school, came into kreeger's specialty shop where i was working and said, "mother. i want to join the marines, and i have quit school." now, mr. kreeger--and he may be leaving--mr. frank kreeger who is owner of kreeger's specialty shop, and all of the personnel there--this is a very small shop, and miss lillian, who was manager, knows of this. i became very excited and i started to cry. and they let me go home with lee. so lee was determined at age --his birthday was going to be october th, right--and this was october th--was going to join the marines. so what lee wanted me to do was falsify his birth certificate, which i would not do. and he kept after me, like a boy. now, this is a normal boy, wanting to join the marines. "i don't see why you don't just put that i am years old." i said, "lee. we cannot do that." he said, "everybody else"-- i said, "no, i am not going to do it." for or days lee and i bickered back and forth about me falsifying his age. so i have a very good friend, mr. clem sehrt, who is an attorney in new orleans, la. i called him and told him i had a personal problem. i had not seen mr. sehrt since early childhood. i knew the family. that lee was not of age and he wanted to join the marines. and he quit the school and told them we were going out of town. he said, "marguerite, i cannot advise you. it would be unethical. but a lot of boys join the service at age ." so he could not advise me. my sister, mrs. charles murret, french street, knows of the complete story. and so does my brother-in-law, mr. charles murret, who also said, "let him join, let him go. if he wants to go so badly, let him join the marines." i, at that time, was living at exchange place, which is the vieux carre section of the french quarter of new orleans. and, by the way, the papers said we lived over a saloon at that particular address. gentlemen, if you have this information, that is just the french part of town. it looks like the devil. of course i didn't have a fabulous apartment. but very wealthy people and very fine citizens live in that part of town, and there are hotels and saloons, and courtyards where the homes are. so i was very upset. there was a colonel on the street that i stopped--i didn't know him--i said, "sir, i would like to talk with you." i told him about the boy wanting to join the marines and i didn't know what to do. i was frantic. and he was insistent that i let him join the marines at age . so he advised me, "well, if he doesn't want to go to school, let him join the marines. it is done all the time." now, i was not too happy about this situation. now, a recruiting officer from the marine reserve in new orleans, la., was in my home the next day when i arrived from work, with lee, in uniform, in the home when i got into the home. he introduced me to him and he said, "mrs. oswald"--he didn't tell me what to do. he was very vague about the thing. i said, "no, lee is too young, age , to join the marines. they are liable to send him overseas." he said, "there is less delinquency in japan and those places than we have here." he saw nothing wrong with it. what he was doing was telling me to falsify his birth certificate, but not in plain words. he was telling me it would be all right for the boy to join the marines. he came to my home personally. so i went to an attorney with lee, because--here is the thing. lee's birth record is in new orleans. and i knew that the marine corps could easily check on this child, age --his birth record. so in order to have a happy situation, so i could work, and to see lee, i went to an attorney and paid $ and said that i lost lee's birth certificate, and kind of motioned to the attorney. i knew it would not stand up. i bought lee a duffle bag and everything, and lee went--we told him goodby, and lee was going to join the marines. i had to accept that, gentlemen. there was no other way i could do, but accept the fact to let him go. mr. rankin. who was that attorney? mrs. oswald. mr. clem sehrt. mr. boggs. what did mr. sehrt allegedly tell you? mrs. oswald. pardon? mr. boggs. what did mr. sehrt tell you? mrs. oswald. mr. sehrt is a family friend. mr. boggs. i know mr. sehrt very well. mrs. oswald. he said according to attorney ethics that he would not be able to advise me. before you came in, sir, i had stated that. now, when i get interrupted, i lose--this is a big thing for me. i am not making excuses. but, gentlemen, it is awfully hard to do this. so lee came home. and he said the captain said that he was too young. now, i don't question much. i don't know whether lee changed his mind, or they sent lee home. i do not know. i do not question that. all right. lee, at age , read robert's marine manual back and forth. he knew it by heart. robert had just gotten out of the marines, and his manual was home. and lee started to read communistic material along with that. mr. rankin. what communistic material did he read? mrs. oswald. it was a small book that he had gotten out of the library. and i knew he was reading it, mr. rankin. mr. rankin. was it in marxism, or what was it about? mrs. oswald. no--if you are saying the title is marxism--no, sir, the title was not. mr. rankin. was it about communism? mrs. oswald. it was more about communism. i knew he was reading it. but if we have this material in the public libraries, then certainly it is all right for us to read. and i think we should know about these things, and all of our scholars and educators and high school boys read subversive material, which we call subversive material. so i, as a mother, would not take the book away from him. that is fine. lee is a reader. i have said from early childhood he liked histories and maps. so that is fine. what i am saying now--we are getting to this agent part. he is with this recruiting officer and he is studying the marine manual--he knew it back and forth. in fact, he would take the book and have me question some of the things. and he was reading communism. lee lived for the time that he would become years old to join the marines--that whole year. mr. rankin. what did he do during that time? mrs. oswald. pardon? mr. rankin. what did he do during that year? mrs. oswald. what did he do during that year? he was working for--as a messenger for tujaque and son. mr. rankin. he had quite a few jobs, did he not? mrs. oswald. yes. i can explain that to you. his first job was tujaque and son, who was steamship people, and he was a messenger. and then he had a lot of friends. now, they say lee didn't have friends. there were boys of his age--while he was working he had an opportunity to make friends, coming to my home. and one of the young men knew of a better paying job, where they had coffee breaks and everything, so lee took that job, which was with a dental laboratory--if you have that information, sir. and i think that is the only two jobs--no, lee worked after school for dolly shoe co. i was working there, in charge of the hosiery department, and lee worked on friday afternoon and saturday as a shoe salesman. that was his first job--while he went to school he worked there. and then when he left school, as i told you, at age --the first job was tujaque and company, steamship, and then the dental laboratory. and that is the only jobs he had in new orleans. mr. rankin. were there not times he didn't have any job during that year? mrs. oswald. no, sir--because when we left new orleans, lee left this dental laboratory job--that is correct. so i moved back to fort worth, tex., because robert did not want to live in new orleans. robert was raised in texas, and has his girl friends and all his friends in texas. so when robert got out of the marines, he wanted to live in texas. so i know that lee wants to join the marines at age , so in the month of july --and, gentlemen, i have always been broke, and i mean broke. about a week before rent time, we had it pretty hard in order to have that rent. yet i take my furniture and ship it to new orleans so lee could be with his brother and we could be with the family--thinking maybe with robert he would not join the marines at age and finish his schooling. when lee became age , october th, he joined the marines. the reason why he didn't go into the marines until october th was the recruiting officer at the marines could not understand his birth certificate, because his father had died months before. so i had to send for an affidavit, even though i had the death notice from the paper and everything, and they could have--they could not understand that about that two months. i had to send to new orleans for an affidavit of his father's death. and so then lee joined the marines on october th. from the th to the th every day lee was leaving. we even laughed about it. because he would leave in the morning and come home in the evening. and it was because he was born months before his father--so he did join the marines at age . now--that, mr. dulles, is the part you wanted to know. but, before, that has something to do with it. lee---- mr. rankin. mr. dulles wanted to know what you based this idea that he was an agent on? mrs. oswald. that is one part. that is the beginning of it, mr. dulles. i have much more. that is the beginning of it, sir. mr. dulles. did he join at or ? mrs. oswald. he joined at age . i signed the paper. you will please forgive me when i make mistakes, and if you will correct me. now, at age - / lee was a member of the civil air patrol. do you have that information, gentlemen? i don't think you have. now, just a minute. i am sorry--this morning, when they were copying my papers. i put this in my bag. i have a picture right here--this is lee at age - / in the uniform of the civil air patrol. this is before the recruiting officer. we are going back. and this is what helped lee to make up his mind to join the service. the chairman. go right ahead, mrs. oswald. mrs. oswald. at age - / or so, lee joined the civil air patrol. he went on an airplane, on flights and everything. i got him the uniform, with robert's help. this young man--now, i do not know his name. he is from new orleans. and i am checking on these things. i have to do research on all of this, and do it alone. this young man and lee were very friendly. the young man that gave lee the idea of--went to beauregard school with him, and he and lee joined the civil air patrol together. that is the way i wish to state this. and he often came to the house. so there is a close friend of lee. lee is not supposed to have any friends. mr. rankin. did he have any girl friends, too? mrs. oswald. no. now, neither did robert or john edward. no, sir. neither of my boys had girl friends until after about age . mr. rankin. did he have other close friends, boy friends, besides these that you recall? mrs. oswald. no, sir, i would not say he had--unless during working--he was working at this time, and i was working during the day. but i mean at the house this young man came to the house, and several of the other young men, as i told you before. now, we are at the civil air patrol. and that is why lee went to the marine corps, is because of the civil air patrol. he wasn't in the civil air patrol long. mr. rankin. now, up to this point, you haven't told us anything that caused you to think he was an agent, have you? mrs. oswald. well, maybe, sir, i am not doing a very good job of what i am saying. mr. rankin. what do you think you have said that caused you to think---- mrs. oswald. i have said that a marine recruiting officer came to my home, and that lee then continued reading robert's manual by heart, and started reading communist literature. he is preparing himself to go into the marine service--at age --this year before he actually joined the service. i am saying he is already preparing himself. mr. rankin. to become an agent? mrs. oswald. yes, i think with the influence of this recruiting officer. mr. rankin. you think the recruiting officer inspired him---- mrs. oswald. yes, sir, influenced this boy. mr. rankin. ----to read the communist literature? mrs. oswald. yes, sir--and robert's marine book. mr. rankin. is there anything else you base that on, except what you have told us? mrs. oswald. about him being an agent? mr. rankin. yes. mrs. oswald. yes, sir, when i get through the whole story. mr. rankin. i mean as far as the recruiting officer. mrs. oswald. no. otherwise than lee's attitude. lee read this manual. he knew it by heart. i even said, "boy, you are going to be a general, if you ever get in the marines." mr. rankin. and you base the idea---- mrs. oswald. he had the idea. mr. rankin. he was being prepared to become an agent, and inspired by this recruiting officer? mrs. oswald. yes, sir. mr. rankin. by what you have told us about his reading the communist literature and this one pamphlet, and also the manual of the marine corps? mrs. oswald. yes, sir. and then living to when he is age to join the marines, which i knew, and which he did at age on his birthday. mr. rankin. now, what else do you base your idea that he was--ever became an agent or was going to become an agent on? mrs. oswald. many, many things. we always watched--it is "i led three lives"--the program--philbrick. we always watched that. and when lee returned from the service and the marines, the three days--that program was on, and he turned it off. he said, "mother, don't watch that, that is a lot of propaganda." it has been stated publicly that the fbi did not know--didn't have lee on the subversive list--i am probably not saying this right, gentlemen--but the rightwing in dallas. i don't know anything politically. the fbi and secret service had a list of names in dallas of people that had to be watched, and lee harvey oswald was not on that list. that would lead to believe there was some reason he was not on the list. mr. rankin. who did you get that from? mrs. oswald. from the newspapers and all over. and there has been a lot of comment about this all through. now, i don't say it is correct. but what i have explained to you before--my way of thinking has to go with this, because i know the boy and the whole life, and you do not, sir. mr. rankin. well, i want to try to find out all you know about it. mrs. oswald. fine. and i want you to. also, lee's letters--and i have them in the hotel--i didn't bring them, because i thought we were through, and you have the copies--most every letter from lee tells me something. when lee is coming back from russia he says, "i plan to stop over in washington a while." lee says in the letter, "marina's uncle is a major in the soviet union." "i am an american citizen and i will never take soviet citizenship." if you will read every letter--if you think he is an agent--every letter is telling his mother--"if something happens to me, mother, these are facts." i might be elaborating. but i think my son is an agent. and these things piece by piece are going together, as far as i am concerned. representative ford. when did you first think he was an agent? mrs. oswald. when lee defected. and i have always said a so-called defection, for this reason. now, we come to another letter. i am going to have to take some time now, because we are not going in sequence. the letter lee wrote to me from new orleans is what i need. mr. rankin. do you have the letter in which he says he was going to washington? mrs. oswald. yes, sir, i gave you that copy yesterday. i don't have the letter with me. they are at the hotel. mr. rankin. you gave it to us yesterday? mrs. oswald. yes, sir--that he would stop over in washington. mr. rankin. do you recall the date of that one? mrs. oswald. well, now, he was supposed to arrive in new york on the th of june, . and that is the letter. when he arrived, i do not know. and i do not know if he went to washington. as i stated yesterday, he went to robert's house, and i was on a case. so i don't know when he arrived in new york. now, this is the letter. lee is out of the marines, and he stays home with me days. and i have publicly stated--and this came out of my book this morning--lee came home september , . he stayed days with me. said he would like to travel on a ship working his way. possibly export and import. he remarked he could make more money that way. the next page is the letter he sent me, and then came the news of his being in russia. this is the letter. "dear mother"----- mr. dulles. is that dated? mrs. oswald. yes, sir. this is just dated september. he was released from the marine corps on september th--i believe i am correct, mr. rankin. and he stayed with me days. and then this is--well, the date on the envelope is september th. he stayed with me days. "dear mother, well, i have booked passage on a ship to europe. i would have had to sooner or later, and i think it is best to go now." "i would have had to sooner or later, so i think it is best that i go now. just remember above all else that my values are very different from robert or us, and it is difficult to tell you how i feel. just remember this is what i must do. i did not tell you about my plans because you could hardly be expected to understand. i did not see lillian while i was here. i will write you again as soon as i land. lee." mr. rankin. what do you think he meant by that? mrs. oswald. that is what i want to tell you. all of this speculation, gentlemen. and that is why i say the warren commission--unless they hear my story and the witnesses involved, cannot arrive at a true conclusion. now, what would you think about this? a few days later you get headlines. "fort worth boy has defected to russia." and i made the letter public. this letter says to his mother he is defecting to russia--right? that is the way you would read the letter. it is easily read this way when you think a boy has defected to russia. so you would read the letter that way. mr. dulles. mr. rankin, do we have correspondence while he was in the marines? mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, do you recall any letters you received from your son during the time he was in the marines? mrs. oswald. yes, sir. i have a special delivery letter. you see, gentlemen, that is why i have tried to explain to you before--if i could have gone from the story we would not all be so mixed up. this is a letter from the marines saying he is going to contact the red cross--when i told him about my illness. mr. rankin. well, that is the correspondence in regard to his getting out of the marines because of your need of his help and support. mrs. oswald. yes, that is right. mr. rankin. now, except for that correspondence, you don't have any other correspondence from him while he was in the marines? mrs. oswald. yes, sir, i did have several letters. what has happened, mr. rankin--when lee stayed with me the days, he left his seabag with me. and that is why i have his discharge papers and things. and then, as you know, when the defection broke, i had no place to go. so the lady i was working for even threatened to call the police, because of the defection. i was working for $ a week, gentlemen, taking care of her son. but i was happy to have a home and food, because i had had this accident, and i could rest. but my salary was $ for the whole week. but when the news broke, she didn't want to be involved with anyone who had a son as a defector, so she asked me to leave. it was a very cold winter night. and i said i would. but i didn't want to leave--didn't have any place to go. she said, "you will leave now or i will call the police." so i called robert and he told me to come out to his home. when i went out to his home, i brought lee's seabag, mr. rankin, with me. and i stayed there just a short time. and robert oswald would not let me have lee's seabag. and there were a few letters in there from lee in the seabag. and so i don't have the seabag. you can read this letter, then, this way. that he is telling me he is defecting to russia. we all agree there. then this same letter could be read the way i read it, as a mother. after three days he is leaving his mother. but we had a talk. when lee arrived home--and i will go into this thoroughly. i was ashamed when he arrived home. i was in a one bedroom and bath and a small kitchen. and my son came in about o'clock in the morning. i have never lived lavishly, but we have always had a nice clean little moderate house. and, remember, i was destitute. i had no money. you have the affidavits evidently from the red cross. if you don't, i have copies. the first thing i said to him, "honey, the first thing we will have to do is to move and find a decent place." i had a studio couch, which has two parts. the top part i put on the floor for my son to sleep on that particular night, in the one room. so he said, "we will talk about it in the morning, mother." so morning came. i brought the subject up immediately. i said, "the first thing we will have to do is find a place. i am well enough that i can babysit or pick up a few dollars. and until i settle my claim, i think we will be able to manage, and you will get a job." he said, "no, mother, my mind is made up. i have thought this out thoroughly. i have no background. if i stay here, i will get a job for about $ a week, and we will both be in a position that you are in. i want to board a ship and work in the import and export business, where there is some real money." mr. rankin. he had quite a little money saved, didn't he, from the marines? mrs. oswald. i will tell you about this--please, gentlemen, i will have to break if you don't. this is a very, very serious life that i have gone through. i didn't answer lee. this is the way i do the children. the chairman. we will take a minute recess now. (brief recess.) the chairman. the commission will be in order. mr. rankin, you may continue. mrs. oswald. mr. rankin, you mentioned about the $ , . now. i don't know if you know for a fact that lee had $ , . it was publicized in the paper that he had $ , , which is right here in . mr. rankin. did he tell you anything about that at the time? mrs. oswald. no, sir, he gave me $ . and he and his brother robert had arrived. and i am assuming it was over me because robert did not help me. and i have made that public in the red cross papers, that he had a family of their own, that they probably thought their duty was to their family. i had no help from the other two boys. and he gave me $ , and i stayed in this little place a few weeks, and then i got the job for $ a week. and that is lee's defection. so here is my only contact with lee in russia, at the metropole hotel--this is dated december , . now, i have settled with the insurance company, and i have a little money. so i sent a check to lee for $ . and this is his little note. the only contact i had with lee from the time of his immediate defection until the state department years later informed me of my son's address. and this is his little note that he needs money. so i would say that lee didn't have $ , , according to this proof. now, we are speculating, as you will admit, because you thought the letter to the school was from me. and you will have to admit that i have given you new evidence. and so maybe lee didn't have $ , , because he is asking for money there. that is when he is right in moscow. mr. rankin. of course, that is quite a while later. mrs. oswald. no, sir. he defected the end of november. this is december . mr. rankin. but he---- mrs. oswald. he had to make passage, and have some money. i don't know if it took $ , . i do not know, sir. but i am saying weeks later he needs money. we haven't gotten to this file yet. i will quote from a newspaper, the star telegram, , his defection, by mrs. aline mosby, who interviewed lee in moscow. it says here, "i saw my mother always as a worker, always with less than we could use, he said. he insisted his childhood was happy despite his poverty." we had a very happy family. he insisted--this is the story in . lee had a normal childhood. and now he is criticizing the united states. he says, "many things bothered him in the united states. race discrimination, harsh treatment of underdog, communists and hate." then on the other letter he is going to russia to write a book. and there is another story and another story. and all kind of stories. so what are we to believe, gentlemen. is he throwing us off the track because he is an agent. we are talking about speculation and newspaper papers, and so on. and we know when he came back that he did go to mrs. bates, a fort worth stenographer, and talked about the soviet union. she made it public. and he only had $ . and he did not finish that story. and she said he was very nervous. and he did not say he was an agent. but she got the impression that he was an agent. this has been made public in the star telegram--if you do not have that, i do. mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, is this the photostatic copy of the letter about his booking passage? mrs. oswald. yes, sir. mr. rankin. you read the original? mrs. oswald. yes, sir. mr. rankin. and this material on the bottom is just your own writing? mrs. oswald. yes. this was in this book. that is my writing at the bottom. mr. rankin. the letter i was referring to is exhibit . mrs. oswald. yes, sir, it is this letter. mr. rankin. we offer in evidence exhibit . the chairman. admitted. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. and received in evidence.) mr. rankin. now, this one starting, "dear mother, received your letter, and so forth"--that is the one about the marines, when he was asking you about getting out of the service and your need, and so forth? mrs. oswald. this is the letter which shows the different character of the boy that the newspapers are making of him--when i wrote and told him i had sold my furniture, and that my compensation and medical was stopped, immediately my son sends a special delivery letter, and that is the letter "received your letter, was very unhappy. i have contacted the red cross, and they will contact you." this is a nice boy to do this immediately, when he finds his mother is in trouble. he is not a louse, like the papers have been making him out. he might have some bad points, but so do all of us. mr. rankin. we will ask the reporter to mark this. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. rankin. exhibit is the letter you are just referring to? mrs. oswald. yes, sir. mr. rankin. we offer in evidence exhibit . the chairman. admitted. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. and received in evidence.) mr. rankin. then, mrs. oswald, the other one that you received from russia, with the check and the little note from your son lee is the one i am showing you? mrs. oswald. yes, sir. mr. rankin. will you mark that as exhibit ? (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. rankin. we offer in evidence exhibit and ask leave to substitute a copy. the chairman. admitted. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. and received in evidence.) mrs. oswald. i have followed up that request and sent the $ bill in an envelope. and i have all of this. but i am not going to go through all this paper. you will have all of this. mr. dulles. did that get through--just as a matter of curiosity. mrs. oswald. yes, that is what i am going to tell you. so i put a $ bill immediately in an envelope and sent it to lee. and then after i thought about it, i thought of a foreign money order. and gentlemen i have all this in black and white for you, and this gentleman will copy and have it--everything i am saying. so then i went to the bank and i got a foreign money order for $ , and i sent it to lee. it all went air mail. but it came back about months later, mr. dulles--the $ bill i got back in cash and the chase national bank foreign money order, that check came back in cash. i will have that proof for you. i understand it comes back by boat, and that is why it took so long. so i had no way of knowing that my contact with my son was successful. i didn't know until about months later he had not received my money. and by that time--well, i didn't know where he was, because i came to washington in january of , had a conference with mr. boster--mr. stanfield---- mr. rankin. did you think he was a russian agent at this time? mrs. oswald. no, sir; i did not think he was a russian agent. representative ford. i thought you answered in response to a question i asked, when you thought he was an agent, you said when he defected. mrs. oswald. i might have said defected to russia. no, sir; i never thought lee was a russian agent. representative ford. i meant an agent of the united states. it is my recollection that you said when he defected to the soviet union, you then thought he was an american agent. mrs. oswald. yes, that is right. that is correct. mr. rankin. what else caused you to think he was an american agent? mrs. oswald. all right. i might be letting things out the way i am going. and i am very unhappy about this. had i started with his childhood i could have worked up to age very peacefully, and you would have gotten everything. i hope i am not forgetting anything important. but now we have letters from the state department. well, my trip to washington has to come before the letters to the state department, sir. so i am in conference with the three men. i showed them the letter from the--the application from the albert schweitzer college, and lee's mail had been coming to my home. i didn't know whether he was living or dead. i did not want to mail these papers. so i made a personal trip to washington. i arrived at washington o'clock in the morning. i took a train, and borrowed money on an insurance policy i have, which i have proof. i had a bank account of $ , which i drew out and bought a pair of shoes. i have all that in proof, sir, the date that i left for the train. i was nights and days on the train, or days and nights. anyhow, i took a coach and sat up. i arrived at the station o'clock in the morning and i called the white house. a negro man was on the switchboard, and he said the offices were not open yet, they did not open until o'clock. he asked if i would leave my number. i asked to speak to the president. and he said the offices were not open yet. i said, "well, i have just arrived here from fort worth, tex., and i will call back at o'clock." so i called back at o'clock. everybody was just gracious to me over the phone. said that president kennedy was in a conference, and they would be happy to take any message. i asked to speak to secretary rusk, and they connected me with that office. and his young lady said he was in a conference, but anything she could do for me. i said, "yes. i have come to town about a son of mine who is lost in russia. i do want to speak--i would like personally to speak to secretary rusk." so she got off the line a few minutes. whether she gave him the message or what i do not know. she came back and said, "mrs. oswald, mr. rusk"--so evidently she handed him a note--and mr. boster was on the line--"that you talk to mr. boster, who is special officer in charge of soviet union affairs"--if i am correct. and mr. boster was on the line. i told him who i was. he said, "yes, i am familiar with the case, mrs. oswald." he said, "will an o'clock appointment be all right with you?" this is o'clock in the morning. so i said--this is quite an interesting story--i said, "mr. boster that would be fine. but i would rather not talk with you." i didn't know who mr. boster was. i said, "i would rather talk with secretary of state rusk. however, if i am unsuccessful in talking with him, then i will keep my appointment with you." so i asked mr. boster--i said, "mr. boster, would you please recommend a hotel that would be reasonable?" he said, "i don't know how reasonable, mrs. oswald, but i recommend the washington hotel. it will be near the state department and convenient to you." so i went to the washington hotel. and as we know, gentlemen, there were nothing but men. they asked me if i had reservation. i said, "no, i didn't, but mr. boster of the state department recommended that i come here." so they fixed me up with a room. i took a bath and dressed. i went to the appointment--because this is : , i am on the phone, and i had to take a cab to the hotel. i arrived at mr. boster's office at : . but before arriving at mr. boster's office. i stopped at a telephone in the corridor, and i called dean rusk's office again, because i didn't want to see mr. boster, and i asked to speak to dean rusk. and the young lady said, "mrs. oswald, talk to mr. boster. at least it is a start." so then i entered around the corridor into mr. boster's office. i have all the pictures of the state department and everything to prove this story is true. i told the young lady. "i am mrs. oswald. i have an o'clock appointment." mr. boster came out and said, "mrs. oswald, i am awfully glad you came early, because we are going to have a terrible snow storm, and we have orders to leave early in order to get home." so he called mr. stanfield--the arrangements had been made--now, the other man--i don't have that name here for you, mr. rankin. mr. rankin. is it mr. hickey? mrs. oswald. yes, mr. hickey. you are correct. so then we were in conference. so i showed the papers, like i am showing here. and i said, "now, i know you are not going to answer me, gentlemen, but i am under the impression that my son is an agent." "do you mean a russian agent?" i said, "no, working for our government, a u.s. agent. and i want to say this: that if he is, i don't appreciate it too much, because i am destitute, and just getting over a sickness," on that order. i had the audacity to say that. i had gone through all of this without medical, without money, without compensation. i am a desperate woman. so i said that. mr. rankin. what did they say to you? mrs. oswald. they did not answer that. i even said to them, "no, you won't tell me." so i didn't expect them to answer that. the chairman. did you mean you were seeking money from them? mrs. oswald. no, sir. i didn't think that my son should have gone--in a foreign country, and me being alone. what i was saying was that i think my son should be home with me, is really what i implied. the chairman. did you tell them that? mrs. oswald. in the words that i said before--i didn't come out and say i want my son home. but i implied that if he was an agent, that i thought that he needed to be home. mr. rankin. did you say anything about believing that your son might know full well what he was doing in trying to defect to the soviet union, he might like it better there than he did here? mrs. oswald. i do not remember saying this. i know what i did say, and they agreed with me. i said--because i remember this distinctly. i said, "now, he has been exploited all through the paper as a defector. if he is a defector"--because as we stated before, i don't know he is an agent, sir--and if he is a defector, that is his privilege, as an individual. and they said, "mrs. oswald, we want you to know that we feel the same way about it." that was their answer. mr. rankin. did you say anything about possibly he liked the soviet way of life better than ours? mrs. oswald. i may have. i do not remember, sir. honestly. i may have said that. i recall that they agreed with me, and they said, "we want him also to do what he wants to do." so now this is january , , is my trip to washington. approximately weeks later, on march , --which is weeks--i received a letter from the state department informing me of my son's address. mr. rankin. do you recall that they assured you there was no evidence he was an agent? mrs. oswald. no, sir, there was no comment to that effect. mr. rankin. and they told you to dismiss any such ideas from your mind? mrs. oswald. no, sir. mr. rankin. you are sure they didn't tell you that? mrs. oswald. i am positive. i said to them, "of course, i don't expect you to answer me." no, sir, there was nothing mentioned about the agent at all. and in fact, i would think, just as a layman, that the state department would not even consider discussing that with me. but i mean it was not discussed. i am positive of that. mr. rankin. if they recorded in a memorandum as of that date that they did say that to you, that would be incorrect? mrs. oswald. that is incorrect, emphatically incorrect. that is incorrect. because i said, "i don't expect you to tell me. but if he is an agent," i didn't think it was the thing to do. well, on january was my trip to washington, . approximately weeks later, on march , , i received a letter from the state department informing me of my son's address, which you probably have, if you don't, sir, i have the copies. and also stating that my son wishes to return back to the united states--just weeks after my trip to washington. now, you want to know why i think my son is an agent. and i have been telling you all along. here is a very important thing why my son was an agent. on march i receive a letter of his address and stating that my son wishes to return back to the united states. you have that, sir? mr. rankin. yes. mrs. oswald. on april , , he marries a russian girl--approximately weeks later. now, why does a man who wants to come back to the united states, weeks later--here is the proof--april , , is the wedding date--marry a russian girl? because i say--and i may be wrong--the u.s. embassy has ordered him to marry this russian girl. and a few weeks later, may , , he is coming home with the russian girl. and as we know, he does get out of the soviet union with the russian girl, with money loaned to him by the u.s. embassy. i may be wrong, gentlemen, but two on two in my books makes four. i have many more things that can go to this, and that has been published. i will probably never know whether my son was an agent, because i do not expect to be told these facts. but isn't it peculiar that a boy is coming home, and the embassy informs me of that--i have all this, mr. rankin, and you know i do. you will have the copies. and then weeks later he marries a russian girl. and the proof of it is that he does come home with the russian girl in a short length of time. and lee would have been home year earlier. but because of the lack of money to come home. mr. rankin. did you ever ask him whether he married the russian girl because they ordered him to? mrs. oswald. no, sir. i have never asked lee any questions of that kind. the only question i asked lee was when they were living with me that month, i said, "lee, i want to know one thing. why is it you came back to the united states when you had a job and you were married to a russian girl," and they sent me lovely gifts and photographs and everything. so they seemed to be well off. i have a beautiful scarf--they sent tea, boxes of candy, which the postage is terrific. he says, "not even marina knows that." and that is the only question i have ever asked my son. this may be hard to believe. but i have explained to you over and over that i think we, as individuals, have a right to our own life. mr. rankin. you saw your daughter-in-law and your son living together with you, didn't you, for some time? mrs. oswald. yes. they lived with me month. mr. rankin. did you think they were in love with each other? mrs. oswald. yes, they were definitely in love with each other. yes, i think they were in love with each other. mr. rankin. did you think at that time it was just because he was an agent and ordered to marry her that he married her? mrs. oswald. no. i would say this. this is purely speculation. he knew marina, and he loved marina. they met at a dance. so that was--he had a girl friend. we are saying if he is an agent--i have to say "if." then he tells the embassy that he is in love with a russian girl. and so it is a good idea to bring the russian girl to the united states. he will have contacts. now, when i was in mrs. paine's home, on the table was a lot of papers from lee. the daily worker i happen to know about. and many, many subversive--now, i say if lee is going to assassinate a president, or lee is anything that he is otherwise than an agent, lee would not have all these things, he would not have his finger in everything. he would not be reading only communism and marxism, that he would be a fanatic about that one thing and have a cause to assassinate the president. but that is not the picture of lee harvey oswald. lee has his hand in everything. mr. rankin. what do you mean by everything? mrs. oswald. well, cuba--because we know in new orleans he was arrested for fair play for cuba. he read the daily worker. and the other ones i don't know. but it was in the paper. there is plenty of subversive material. mr. rankin. what about books? did he read books much while he was living with you? mrs. oswald. yes, he read continuously. he went immediately to the library upon coming to the united states. he read continuously. all kinds of books. i tried, when he defected--i went to the library to find out the kind of literature that lee read. but they could not give me that information. they said the only way they could give that information was when a book was overdue, and was out. but otherwise they have no record. now, it has been stated in the paper--maybe new orleans is different, i don't know, but i know in fort worth i could not get the information. stated he had books--the assassination of huey long and things of that sort. they must have a different system. because in fort worth, tex., they do not have that system. the only way they can tell is if a book is out. but i know lee read. and i have stated in all of this. anyway, from vincent peale on down to anything you want to mention. lee read continuously. mr. rankin. now, was there any time that marina said anything to you to lead you to believe that she thought your son, lee, married her because he was an agent? mrs. oswald. no, sir, no, sir. not at any time at all. mr. rankin. you think she loved him? mrs. oswald. i believe that marina loved him in a way. but i believe that marina wanted to come to america. i believe that lee had talked america to her, and she wanted to come to america. i say this for a lot of little things that happened--that marina wanted to come to america. maybe she loved him. i am sure she did, anyway. she said that she did. mr. rankin. i am not clear about this being ordered to marry her. you don't mean that your son didn't love her. mrs. oswald. well, i could mean that--if he is an agent, and he has a girl friend, and it is to the benefit of the country that he marry this girl friend, and the embassy helped him get this russian girl out of russia--let's face it, well, whether he loved her or not, he would take her to america, if that would give him contact with russians, yes, sir. mr. rankin. is that what you mean? mrs. oswald. i would say that. mr. rankin. and you don't think it was because your son loved her, then? mrs. oswald. i do not know whether my son loved her or not. but i am telling you why he would do this--in -weeks time. now, you have a -week period in here. mr. rankin. i understand that. but i think it is a very serious thing to say about your son, that he would do a thing like that to a girl. mrs. oswald. no, sir, it is not a serious thing. i know a little about the cia, and so on, the u- , powers, and things that have been made public. they go through any extreme for their country. i do not think that would be serious for him to marry a russian girl and bring her here, so he would have contact. i think that is all part of an agent's duty. mr. rankin. you think your son was capable of doing that? mrs. oswald. yes, sir, i think my son was an agent. i certainly do. mr. rankin. have you got anything more that caused you to think he was an agent? mrs. oswald. yes, i have things that have been coming out in the paper. and i am not the only one that thinks my son is an agent. there has been many, many publications questioning whether lee was an agent or not because of circumstances, and so on, and so forth, through the newspapers. mr. rankin. that is newspaper accounts you are talking about now? mrs. oswald. yes. and as i said about the fbi. mr. rankin. what about your own knowledge? mrs. oswald. well, that is why i wanted to go into the story. i wouldn't have become emotionally upset had i started in sequence. i told you about him not wanting me to see that program. and then the letters. there is so much. about him being an agent--all of his correspondence with the embassy in moscow. i have the letters in the hotel. one of the letters states that the russians cannot hold you--"the russians cannot hold you. you are an american citizen. you are not a bona fide russian resident." we have the letters. you have a copy of the letter, mr. rankin. and "if you will show this letter to the russians, they cannot hold you in minsk." mr. rankin. they would say that about you if you were over there, or anyone. mrs. oswald. the point i am trying to bring there is lee has always been an american citizen--according to all of my papers from the state department. mr. rankin. yes. mrs. oswald. and they would say that about anyone--all right, i will grant you that. you are probably right. mr. rankin. so that doesn't prove he is an agent, that i can see. now, how do you feel it shows he was an agent? mrs. oswald. because he has the sanction of the american embassy all through this affair. mr. rankin. they would give that to any of us. mrs. oswald. all right--so you are telling me that. but this man is married to a russian girl, and does come back within a short time, and could have come back sooner. it was the lack of money. and that is another thing. the state department repeatedly kept writing me, and i have the letters, for the money. i have copies of my letters also. i could not raise the money. i said i had a ' buick car, and all i could get a loan on was $ . they wrote back and said could you ask some friends, or do you have any relatives-- and some odd dollars they needed. and i went to very prominent people in vernon, tex.--one who is a very respected citizen that they recommended me to go, who has a citizen award. and i felt very confident maybe he would help me. i told him that my son, who was a very young man, who was an american citizen, is trying to get back to the united states, but there is lack of money, and if he knew of any way possible he could help me. he said "you mean he is a defector?" i said, "possibly so. the paper has said he was a defector." and he said, "well, i am sorry, mrs. oswald, but these boys that are in the service and defect, i don't have any use for." and i said, "do you go to church, sir?" he said, "yes, i do." and i said, "probably you go to church to put your hat on. because here is a boy. let's say he has made a mistake. he has gone to russia. but let's say he realizes now he has made a mistake, and he wants to come back. are you telling me you won't help him?" "that is what i am telling you, mrs. oswald. i don't have any use for anybody." which senator tower said that he would not help lee--made it public. these are nice people saying this. i say the ones who are down and out are the ones that need the help. this boy was a young boy. let's say he is not an agent. let's say he defected to russia. yet he wants to come back. he deserved a helping hand. i went to people. i did not beg. but i presented my case. and not a one offered to help. mr. rankin. didn't you understand that the state department had to try to find out if they could--or you or your son could get the money from other sources before they could advance the money? mrs. oswald. yes, sir, i understand that. i am trying to tell you that i tried awfully hard, but with no success. mr. rankin. so they were just trying to do their duty in that regard, were they not? mrs. oswald. it could be, yes. it could be. mr. rankin. you don't think that makes him an agent, just because they asked you---- mrs. oswald. i think--well, as you say, they would probably help anyone. and then again, because he is married to a russian girl, and because all these documents and everything are handled through the u.s. embassy. and because of my trip to washington--which was red carpet treatment. let's say, gentlemen, if a woman gets on the phone at o'clock and has an appointment at o'clock with three big men, that is wonderful treatment. now, they probably would do that to anybody. i don't know. mr. rankin. they might have done that---- mrs. oswald. i haven't been that fortunate before. mr. rankin. well, that shouldn't be held against them that they treated you nicely. mrs. oswald. no, i have told you, mr. rankin, they were most gracious to me. the administration was most gracious to me. mr. rankin. i don't see why you should think that because they treated you nicely, that was any sign he was an agent. mrs. oswald. well, maybe you don't see why. but this is my son. and this is the way i think, because i happen to know all of the other things that you don't know--the life and everything. i happen to think this. and this is my privilege to think this way. and i can almost back it up with these things. this is a stranger to you folks. but this is a boy i have known from a child. mr. rankin. how much money do you think, he received for being an agent? mrs. oswald. that i do not know. mr. rankin. you have no idea? mrs. oswald. but i do know this, and i have stated this. i have approximately and some odd dollars. and i lost my job. that can be proven. i was a nurse on the to shift, working in a rest home, for a very wealthy woman. and it would have been at least a year, a year and a half case. she is not that bad off. she is just an invalid. she is going to live quite a while. when i returned home from the six flags on thanksgiving day, the deputy sheriff at fort worth, tex. went to get my pay. and the nurse, the to : o'clock nurse--i went to --and my patient cried and said that they were awfully sorry, but they could not have me back on the case. that the woman at the rest home refused to have me. now, i was not working for the rest home. i was doing private duty. but i understand that this is her place of business, and my presence there might have been--hurt her money part. but this is our christian way of life. the boy was accused of killing the president, with no proof. and then the mother loses her job. now, that is my position. you asked me the question. but marina has $ , publicly. what she has, i do not know. now, gentlemen, $ , is a lot of money in donation dribs and drabs--is a very large sum of money. i question where does that money come from. yes, some of it could be coming from lee's back pay. and she might have more than that. that was the amount made public--$ , . and here is a mother without a job. and everybody knows i have no money. and my contributions are and some odd dollars. mr. rankin. now, when you say that money that marina has might come from your son's back pay, what do you base that on? just speculation? mrs. oswald. i am basing all of this on speculation. sir, if i had proof, i would not be taking my energy and my emotional capacity to bring all this out--if i had proof he was an agent. mr. rankin. when they asked you to contribute some money to help bring him home from russia, did it occur to you that if he is an agent the government could just pay his way? mrs. oswald. yes. but they don't want the public to know he is an agent. they want me to have all of this. they don't want the public to know. i am going around to people--you brought up a very good point. i am going around trying to get money for this boy to come home, so the public knows. sure, they could have given him the money to come home. mr. rankin. are you trying to get money now? i don't understand what you mean by that? mrs. oswald. i think, mr. rankin, you asked me the question that if he was an agent, that the government would have given him the money to come home without any trouble. i say just the opposite. that it was a very good point. if he was an agent, it would make it hard for him to get the money to come home. remember, i am under the impression he is coming home with this russian girl in order to continue his work. so he cannot be given the money immediately to come home, because his mother might tell the story to someone. lee was almost a year coming home for lack of money. so then they have an excuse to loan him the money. mr. rankin. did you ever learn that he was getting money from the red cross in addition to his pay--that is the russian or soviet red cross, when he was over there? mrs. oswald. no, sir. mr. rankin. you don't know what he did with that? mrs. oswald. i don't know anything about that. the red cross from here? mr. rankin. the soviet red cross. mrs. oswald. no, sir, i know nothing about that. mr. rankin. you didn't know he was supposed to have gotten an amount equal to the pay he received from his job. he got that from the red cross. mrs. oswald. i don't follow you. i do not know. i don't understand. mr. rankin. he got so much a month from his job in the electronics factory. you understood that. mrs. oswald. in russia? mr. rankin. yes. mrs. oswald. he was not in an electronics factory. i thought he was working in a radio factory. all right, fine. mr. rankin. and then he got an equal amount, we understand, from the red cross of the soviet union. did you know that? mrs. oswald. no, sir. now, explain to me--when you say the red cross of the soviet union. is that our american red cross in the soviet union, or this is part of the russian red cross? mr. rankin. this is part of the russian red cross. mrs. oswald. i do not know that. mr. rankin. it is not any part of the american red cross. mrs. oswald. no, i do not know that. mr. rankin. their red cross is somewhat different than ours, i understand, because the government has so much to do with activity there that the red cross is closely associated with the government itself, while in this country, as you know, it is generally supported by the public. mrs. oswald. no, i did not know that. now, one other thing pertaining to this. when marina and lee returned from russia, and they were at my daughter-in-law's home, robert's home, and i came in from the job in the country to see them, i said--up until this time, gentlemen, i thought russians were peasant-looking people, like the public. and i said, "lee, she doesn't look russian at all. she looks american." he said, "of course, mother, that is why i married her, is because she looks american." in front of my daughter-in-law and robert. he bragged that she looked like an american girl. and there is all little things of that sort. as i say, i cannot remember everything in my life, because i am going--this is way back--in a few hours time, mr. rankin. but there is many, many things that come up. mr. rankin. how does that show that he was an agent at that time. i don't understand that. mrs. oswald. i don't either. but i am telling you the expressions. he is making a point. and what i was going to make a point--lee loved his work, and lee loved the marines. lee loved the marines, mr. rankin. even coming back--he was a military man. and that has also been stated in the paper, that he had a military manner about him. i think district attorney wade remarked something of that order. people have noticed that. mr. rankin. what made you think he loved the marines? was there something he did when he came back? mrs. oswald. yes. he loved the marines because his brother was a marine, for one thing. and john edward--that is his career-- years. my brother was in the navy. his father was a veteran. we are a servicemen family. and i know lee loved the marines. i told you how he read the manual before he left. and on leaves, coming home, lee would brag. he even said when he came home from japan, "mother, my stay in japan, just the trip alone would have cost about $ , ." now, lee, i know also, was in the air force of the marines, and he went to biloxi, miss., for schooling. lee has had quite a bit of schooling. and lee spoke russian equivalent to year when he defected to russia. i have that on his application from the albert schweitzer college. and lee spoke and wrote russian fluently when he went to russia. so lee learns russian in the marines. mr. rankin. did he ever talk about reenlisting into the marines after he returned? mrs. oswald. well, when lee returned he was with me days, and then, of course, he went over to visit robert's house. so actually we didn't talk. i was trying to find a home. and i didn't think he would go. i was hoping that lee would not go on the ship and work. i was hoping he would stay home. we were interrupted before. when he said to me about, that he wanted to work on a ship in the import and export business, i started to tell you i agreed with him. and this is how you have to do--particularly when you are a woman. a father could tell the man, "you are not going to do this." but i went along with that. and then the next day i said, "lee, why don't you stay," and i went into that--"until i settle my claim, and i can babysit and we can get along." he said, "no, my mind is made up. if i stay, we will both be in these circumstances." so on the third day--i knew he wanted to do this, but i didn't think he was going to do it for a month or two. but on the third day he came with his suitcase in the room and he said, "mother, i am off." so since his mind was made up, i told him goodby. mr. rankin. he said nothing about reenlisting in the marines? mrs. oswald. no, the three days he was home. that was the conversation, about him going on a ship. i saw his passport. and his passport was stamped "import and export" on his passport. mr. rankin. did it say anything about soviet russia on it? mrs. oswald. no. what i am saying is that i saw the passport with big writing "export and import." i think it was blue. i did not read the passport, because lee was there, but i happened to see the passport, "export and import" stamped. whether he had another passport, i do not know. i didn't ask. i am saying this--and god knows i am telling you the truth. i am just this type person. it is because of my life. mr. rankin. did you know that he spoke russian at that time, when he had this passport? mrs. oswald. no, sir; i did not know. the only time i knew that he spoke russian is what came out in the news. but when i really knew was lee's application for the albert schweitzer college. shall we go into that--the application? mr. rankin. yes. mrs. oswald. now, the first that i knew--no, i am wrong. it is not the first i knew. i had received a letter from lee while in the marines before he knew of my trouble, stating that he was accepted by the albert schweitzer college. and that letter was in the sea bag that i told you about, that i do not have. mr. dulles. would you give us the date of that letter? mrs. oswald. the other letter would have been--let's see. lee was told in july about my trouble. and the other letter i would say would be about may or june. this is march . i received this in care of lee. and you see, sir, i have a lot of addresses, because i am now living in these homes. mr. dulles. ' or ' ? mrs. oswald. . let's see now. then i heard from the state department in . "due to a number of circumstances, we found ourselves forced to make a slight change in the arrival and departure dates of the third term. the first lecture will be held on tuesday afternoon . o'clock, april , instead of taking place on the st with the arrival day on the th. it will mean that the students arrive either on the evening of monday, the th, or before noon on april th. this change, however, makes it possible to end the term on the weekend of july . we hope that you will still be able to fit this change of dates into your travel plan. should it not be possible for you to arrive on the earlier date we, of course, understand the difficulty. in the latter case, please drop us a line." so that is how i knew that lee--i opened his mail. i didn't know whether my son was living or dead, sir. and that is how i knew--i won't go into all this. he made a deposit. i have all of this for you. he made a deposit. and this is my copies to them. now, one thing i have forgotten. while at the state department, the state department told me that lee had gone to finland before russia. and i did not know that. now, lee had applied at a college in finland, evidently, because on the application it states such a fact. i did not know, because the paper just said he arrived in russia--until i went to the state department. so what i am trying to say--i may be forgetting a lot of important things, because i am just now remembering what the state department told me. i don't think i am forgetting too much. but, after all, i am going through a whole life, and it is very hard. this is lee's original application, that you cannot possibly have had. this is the only application there is. so this is something new for you gentlemen. i am not going to go through it all, because you have a copy. but i am going to show you the thinking of this young man. "special interests: religious, vocational, literary, sports, and hobbies. philosophy, psychology, ideology, football, baseball, tennis, stamp collecting"--lee had a stamp collecting book. "nature of private reading: jack london, darwin, norman vincent peale, scientific books, philosophy, and so on." representative ford. that is an application to where? mrs. oswald. this is an original application for the albert schweitzer school. "active part taken in organizations. student body movement in school for control of juvenile delinquency, member ymca, and aya association." i don't know what that is. mr. rankin. where did you get this copy? mrs. oswald. i had contacted congressman jim wright, that has helped me--helped me to locate lee through the state department. but mr. jim wright was not successful. i was successful because of my trip to washington, as you know. and from the trip to washington, i went to the building where mr. jim wright worked, and i went in to tell the secretary about the trip to washington. and that i had heard from lee. well, i had information here that lee had paid a deposit. so i had written the school and asked if we were entitled to the return of the deposit, since he didn't show up. but i did not get an answer. so mr. wright's secretary said that, "mrs. oswald, i will write and see what we can do." so she wrote, and then they sent the application and everything back to jim wright's office. and that is how i got the application. mr. doyle. they may be interested in knowing where the college is. mrs. oswald. it is in switzerland. albert schweitzer college, chur walden, graubuenen, switzerland. "application form. high school. completed high school by correspondence." i have that. his original correspondence in the service--completed high school. mr. rankin. is that part of his marine work--he finished high school that way? mrs. oswald. yes, sir. "january ' , passing on scale of b plus. college: none." and then i read his books. now, we go down to here. "vocational interests if decided upon: to be a short story writer on contemporary american life." now, "general statement regarding reasons for wishing to attend the albert schweitzer college: in order to acquire a fuller understanding of that subject which interests me most, philosophy, to meet with europeans who can broaden my scope of understanding, to receive formal education by institutes of high standing and character, to broaden my knowledge of german, and to live in a healthy climate and good moral atmosphere." this is very good thinking, gentlemen. we are getting a picture now of the boy which has been not told in the paper. i have read this one particular statement at three press conferences. the first press conference was about members there, from foreign lands and everything. nothing was printed. then i had a second press conference with men and i said, "now, i am tired of the things that are being said about my family, myself, and lee. we are not perfect. but i know there is some good things. and i have read a particular statement that has not been printed. let's see if one of you has the courage to print it." there was there. that did not come out. i had a third conference, and i said the same thing and quoted this. that was not made public in the paper. i hold a lot of these answers, gentlemen, as you know by now. mr. rankin. you notice the next paragraph, about his plans? mrs. oswald. yes, "plans to be pursued after the period at albert schweitzer college: to attend the short summer course of the university of turku, turku, finland." now, i have a brochure. this i cannot understand--from this college, dated . i have this for you, mr. rankin--dated . lee is in russia. and the men in the state department told me he went to finland before russia. but this is dated . i have it for you. but i don't understand that. "then to return to america and pursue my chosen vocation." mr. rankin. i want to ask you about that. do you think he meant this at the time? mrs. oswald. i do not know. i am saying--and i am going to stick to my story--that lee is an agent, then a lot of this is a lot of baloney. i cannot make it any stronger. i don't know, sir. the boy is gone, and i didn't hear from his own lips. mr. rankin. you think that he decided to defect after this application, then? mrs. oswald. i do not know, sir, because i have not had this from the boy. i am speculating. but i have a lot of documents to sustain my speculation. mr. rankin. now, this, you cannot tell one way or another about whether he is an agent by this. mrs. oswald. i cannot tell by anything he is an agent, if you want proof. i am becoming a little discouraged about this, because i keep telling you--i did not have proof, sir. but i am giving you documents leading to it. mr. rankin. all i am trying to find out is what you have. you are giving us that. i am also trying to find out whatever proof you have about these various things that we can rely on. mrs. oswald. well, i am going to state once and for all, because it upsets me very much emotionally. and i have stated before, i do not have proof, sir. i do not have proof of an agent. i do not have proof my son is innocent. i do not have proof. mr. rankin. you don't have any proof of a conspiracy? mrs. oswald. of anything. it is just as i feel, like the dallas police do not have proof my son shot president kennedy. if they have anything, it is circumstantial evidence. i have as much circumstantial evidence here that lee was an agent as the dallas police have that he shot president kennedy. "familiarity with foreign languages, if any. russian equal in fluency to about year's education or schooling. i also speak a very little german. general condition of health: good. have you ever had any serious illness or nervous disturbances: no." mr. rankin. is that correct? mrs. oswald. that is correct. i want to get to that psychiatric. there will be a story there. "does such a condition still exist: no." i don't understand this--do you? "general condition of health: good. have you had a serious illness or nervous disturbance, no. if so, explain." then he has a dash. "are you at present receiving medical or psychiatric care? no." and then he gives as references--you have this, so i won't go into it. a chaplain--would you like me to go into all these names for the record? mr. rankin. no, we can offer this. did you know any of those people that he showed as references? mrs. oswald. no, sir. i do not. and that is dated the d, th, ' . and this is another application form from the albert schweitzer college. "i hereby apply to attend the student course from april , to june , . surname: oswald. christian name: lee harvey. mr. age, . mother tongue: english. other language you know: russian. equal in fluency to year of schooling. occupation: student. nationality: american. exact address: mcaf, macs- , santa ana, california, usa. remarks: please inform me of the amount of the deposit if required so i can forward it and confirm my reservation and show my sincerity of purpose. thank you. lee harvey oswald." well, he did, and i have this here, make a deposit of $ , which the school informed me that they would not be able to refund, because it would take care of any incidentals that had occurred for him not appearing. gentlemen, it is minutes to five, i believe i had a full day. i worked last night on the papers. i came early to have copies made. this was a complete story, i believe, and i have at least three other complete stories. and i have a story of my life that i believe from newspaper accounts that you will be very surprised also to know the type person i am. but according to the newspaper--of course, really nothing bad has been said about me, otherwise than one particular instance. that i can prove and have witnesses that it is not the case. the chairman. mrs. oswald, you said you had three more stories. just name them. name what stories they are, so we will know what they are. mrs. oswald. yes, sir. it would be lee's life, sir, from early childhood, and the psychiatric treatment in new york, that i want to tell you about. the chairman. up to ? mrs. oswald. yes, sir, because we have finished that, because we went into that. and then my life, from early childhood, which you have asked, mr. rankin, in a letter. the third was lee as an agent, which i have gone into. the chairman. lee what? mrs. oswald. lee being an agent. but i have really gone into that. the chairman. so really, there are only two more? mrs. oswald. yes, sir, my life and lee's life. now, i would like you to have this picture--if you have not seen it. and i will not comment on it. i want you to study it thoroughly, use a magnifying glass, if possible, and if you care to, we will discuss it. now, this is out of the post magazine. there is another picture that i would like the commission to get which, is in the memorial issue of president kennedy--i think it is the post. i will get that information for you. mr. doyle. would you like to advise the commission generally what you believe they will find out from this? mrs. oswald. i would rather not comment on that at this particular moment. i submit it to them for them to look over all the people, to study it. i have two. you may have that one for the record. mr. dulles. what does this purport to be of? mrs. oswald. that is a picture of the book depository the day of the assassination of president kennedy. and there are people in the picture. the chairman. well, is there anything you want us to see in the picture? mrs. oswald. well, i would rather you see it yourself. i see what i see. the chairman. what do you see? mrs. oswald. well, all right. i see marina and the child--the girl and the baby, it could be marina. the chairman. will you show us, please? mrs. oswald. and, again, i am saying--i cannot be sure this is the picture. but this right here. this girl with this baby could possibly be marina and june. mr. rankin. and that is the girl---- mrs. oswald. this girl holding the baby. mr. rankin. right next to the door? mrs. oswald. yes, sir, right next to the door. in back of her is the hat of a man. i have started this. i will continue. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , for identification.) mr. rankin. mr. chairman, may i offer this? the chairman. yes. mr. rankin. i offer in evidence exhibit . and that is the photograph that you were just referring to, mrs. oswald? mrs. oswald. yes, sir, that is the photograph the day of the assassination. mr. rankin. and you pointed out the girl on the left column---- mrs. oswald. of the entrance to the book depository, holding a child. (the document heretofore marked for identification as commission exhibit no. was received in evidence.) mr. dulles. do we know the time this was taken? mr. rankin. can you tell about the time this was taken? mrs. oswald. yes. this, i understand, was when president kennedy was shot. he is supposed to be holding his throat here. and this is the car. this is right after he passed the book depository, when he is supposed to have been shot. the chairman. very well. we will adjourn until tomorrow at o'clock. (whereupon, at : p.m., the president's commission recessed.) _wednesday, february , _ testimony of mrs. marguerite oswald resumed the president's commission met at a.m. on february , , at maryland avenue ne., washington, d.c. present were chief justice earl warren, chairman; representative hale boggs and representative gerald r. ford, members. also present were j. lee rankin, general counsel; wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel; and john f. doyle, attorney for mrs. marguerite oswald. the chairman. the commission will be in order. we will proceed to the hearing. the chairman. mrs. oswald, did you have anything you wanted to say to us this morning before we start the questioning? mrs. oswald. yes, i meant to yesterday morning. i have two or three things that are worrying me. mr. rankin, on monday, when i testified that i had not been questioned officially, you told me that i had. and if i remember correctly, sir, you said that there was pages of testimony, or was it pages? mr. rankin. twenty-eight, i think. mrs. oswald. well, mr. doyle, as my attorney--i am very concerned about that, because i want to know--if it is my testimony--because the little while--the testimony that i gave to the fbi when i entered the courthouse was approximately about minutes. they immediately left to investigate. they did not talk to me again, sir. and then the only other testimony that i gave on tape was the starting of lee's defection at the six flags inn, which i would say ran approximately or minutes. and that is the only time i have testified. now, if you have all this other testimony from me, i don't think it is fair, because i should know what i am supposed to have said. i need to know what i am supposed to have said. the chairman. mrs. oswald, whatever we have that we are told you have said, you and your attorney are entitled to see, and i will see that you can. we won't delay the proceeding this morning. but you may see it before you leave the building. mrs. oswald. yes--it is very important to know that. thank you, justice warren. the chairman. all right. mr. rankin. mr. chairman, on that point, will it be satisfactory if we furnish a clean photostatic copy to mr. doyle? the chairman. yes, that will be satisfactory. you may do that, yes. mrs. oswald. i certainly need to know what i am supposed to have said. there is an fbi agent by the name of mr. john fain. i will ask you, mr. rankin, if you have his address, or do you know about mr. john fain? mr. rankin. i know of mr. john fain as one of the agents that had some interviews with your son. mrs. oswald. now, mr. john fain is the agent that i called upon myself after lee's defection. i read where the secret service were investigating the family background, and i mistook it for the fbi. so i called the fbi and he came to my home. and he is the agent who recommended me to talk to jim wright and sam rayburn as a friend, and to write the letters. now, the one point i am going to bring out is this. when lee returned from russia and was at robert's home, mr. fain--in the meantime he had come over to robert and talked to him several times, and to me, supposedly as a friend--he said he was not on the case. i do not know this. but he came to robert's home and said to lee--my daughter-in-law is a witness there--"lee, i am not on the case, but i would like you voluntarily to come to the office at your convenience and tell me your story, because i am interested in your case. your mother was the one who contacted me. and i have been to see robert. and i am quite interested in a young boy going to russia. and you must have a story." so lee voluntarily went with mr. fain to the fbi office. then when lee returned, his remark was "well, he didn't believe me. he wanted me to take a lie detector test, which i refused." now, mr. john fain may have the story we are looking for, you see--because lee went and gave the story. and i want to make sure you know where he is now. i have information from senator mike monroney that in march--i am ahead of my story. the fbi agents now in fort worth have told me they do not know mr. john fain. i said i happen to know that is his name. "well, mrs. oswald, i worked in this office years, and there has never been such a person as mr. john fain." so i have investigated. and senator mike monroney gave this information. he did work in the fort worth office from march to october , and then he retired in january , . he is not a man to retire as far as age, as far as i am concerned. i don't think mr. john fain is that old. the chairman. we will check that out. mrs. oswald. i have his last address in houston, if you don't have it. all right. fine. now, one thing about lee being an agent i read. the neighbors that were interviewed in fort worth, tex., by the fbi--this is from newspaper accounts--said that lee always walked a few feet in front of his wife when they went walking, and they wondered about that, because it was very strange that he should walk ahead. i am speculating maybe, but maybe there is a reason that lee would walk ahead to protect his wife. that is my reasoning--as an agent. the letter that is missing--and mr. doyle can verify this--the first letter to lee is missing, that lee wrote to me, rather, from russia. and this letter stated--and it seemed to me, mr. rankin, i have seen it in one of the magazines--as i have stated i have sold several of lee's letters. and maybe in the rush the letter got lost or stolen, i don't know. but his first letter, he told me not to send him any money. "i repeat, do not send any money as it is not necessary for you to pay me back. you could send reading matter. i am lonesome to read. also, send a can of rise shaving cream, a gillette razor," and there was a book he wanted to read, i believe it was . mr. rankin. what date was this you sent that? mrs. oswald. this is a letter lee sent to me that is missing--the first letter that lee sent to me. and why i sent the money--because i had used his income tax return, which was $ , because lee was lost--and i was destitute, and i knew lee would never prosecute his mother for using his money, because lee would help me. mr. rankin. you mean that was a refund. mrs. oswald. a refund. and i got the refund and used it, sir. and i also used lee's first check that came from the marines. and i had no way of knowing where lee was. and i used it. and so i offered to pay lee back. and this letter has been printed. i have seen it. but i do not have it. so that is very important. mr. doyle. as you had mentioned, you and i went through the papers that you had brought with you from your home in texas to washington, and we did not find such a letter among those papers. mrs. oswald. that is right. i have those letters laminated, and i didn't give a list, and if it was taken i don't know what became of the letter. mr. rankin. mr. liebeler said he had seen references to the letter. mrs. oswald. references. and i am sure it was probably one of the letters i had sold, as i told you. yes, sir, you are correct there. now, there is another thing that we have skipped. while in dallas weeks ago i had a press conference, and i called jaggars-chiles-stovall inc., browder, in dallas. now, this is a printing shop, where lee worked. now, this is another thing. mr. rankin. that was the photoengraving place that you talked about, wasn't it, in your testimony? mrs. oswald. photoengraving place. i talked to mr. stovall. now, lee was employed there, he informs me, from october th to april th, and i asked him about the young couple coming to the house, if he was the father of the girl, or if he knew of a couple who had a russian--the girl had a russian father, the grandfather, as i testified. mr. rankin. what did he say about that? mrs. oswald. no, sir, he said, no. and he didn't know about that. he said--this is the part--that lee had worked at a place prior to his place. that is not so, and i can prove it. i was on an ob case for mrs. rosenthal. we will have to get a calendar. october th, or thereabouts, is when i was released from this ob case. and this was the sunday that i asked to get off an hour or two, and went to lee's house, and saw this couple. mr. rankin. october th was a friday. mrs. oswald. was a friday. all right. now, so, let's see where i am. this woman would not give me the information, of her last check to me. i tried and tried, and told her how important it was. it was a friday. so then it would have to be, then, mr. rankin, the week before--the sunday of the week before then. mr. rankin. that would be october , . mrs. oswald. i am still going to try to investigate this thoroughly, because it is very important. he claimed that lee worked another place first. now, do you know if lee---- the chairman. let's don't--we will go into those things. mrs. oswald. but if you don't know, chief justice warren, how will you go into it? the chairman. please don't turn this into examining the commission. we will go into those things very thoroughly. just go ahead with your story. mrs. oswald. well, this is a lie, and i want to know about this lie. the chairman. all right, you have told us. mrs. oswald. i have not finished, sir. the chairman. well, you may go ahead and tell what you want. but don't question the commission. that is the only thing i am asking you. mrs. oswald. well, i don't know about questioning. mr. doyle. i think if you compose yourself, if you would, and just go ahead and give the commission all the information you have. mrs. oswald.. well, that is what i think i am doing. if i am doing it a wrong way, you will have to understand. i am a layman. i am the mother of this accused boy. i understand that is what the commission is for, to get all information possible to come to a conclusion. and if i have found out that my date of employment is the date that lee was employed in dallas, and this man said he worked some place before, i think that is very important information. the chairman. we will check on that. go right ahead with your own story. mrs. oswald. maybe i should apologize for taking up so much of the commission's time, sir. mr. doyle. go right ahead with the business, and when you give the commission the facts, then the commission will take on from there in their own judgment. mr. rankin.. mr. doyle, while she is taking a moment, i will hand you a photostatic copy of this tape recording of an interview with mrs. marguerite oswald--it purports to be that--recorded on november , , an interview by j. m. howard. mr. doyle.. thank you. mrs. oswald. now, one thing we have not covered was lee's discharge. the chairman. may i interrupt just a minute? is that the document we were talking about just a little while ago, a copy of which was to be given to mrs. oswald? mr. rankin. that is right, that is the one requested. the chairman. and the one you were speaking of---- mr. rankin. as a -page document. the chairman. yes--all right. now, you may continue, mrs. oswald. mrs. oswald. thank you very much. this is lee's questionable, dishonorable discharge, where i come in. the first envelope was addressed to lee harvey oswald, airmail. and lee was in russia, as we know. we have the proof. and you have all of the copies of this, i am sure. the chairman. yes. mrs. oswald. and this you do not have. you have a copy now, but you do not have the story, mr. rankin. it states that the discharge by reason of unfitness, recommendation for discharge, reason of unfitness. well. i wrote to the u.s. marine corps--now, where is the copy of my letter? i talked to a commandant at the marine corps and read this to him. and he advised me how to write to the marine corps, the official of the marine corps. and that is a copy of the letter. i asked--well, he will get me the letter, i am sure. so then i will read the answer to my letter. is that satisfactory? mr. rankin. yes. mr. liebeler is going to get the copy that he has. now, can you tell the commission when you first learned about this matter? mrs. oswald. it would be on the envelope, sir. the envelope is mailed, glenview, april , illinois. but, as you see, it had gone to a lot of addresses, because i had moved around quite a bit. so we would have to say i got it some time later than the original. mr. rankin. now, does this involve the question of the undesirable discharge? mrs. oswald. yes, sir; it does. mr. rankin. and did you ever write to secretary connally about that, later governor connally? mrs. oswald. no, sir, i never did write to him. mr. rankin. all right. will you tell us what happened? mrs. oswald. i wrote a letter, and was told how to write the letter. and this is the answer to the letter. i won't read it all, because you have a copy. but i have a few points to make here. mr. rankin. do you recall who told you that--the name of the man? mrs. oswald. it was the marine base in fort worth, tex., one of the captains there. mr. rankin. thank you. mrs. oswald. told me who to write to. mr. rankin. you don't remember the name? mrs. oswald. no, sir; i do not. mr. rankin. all right. mrs. oswald. the letter to commandant, marine air reserve, jtmgr, april , "to your son was prompted by his request for soviet citizenship. an investigation concerning this matter has been conducted by military authorities and the case will be placed before a board of officers which will recommend that your son be retained in or separated from the u.s. marine corps reserve. your son, of course, has the right to appear in person or to present any facts or evidence which would assist the board in reaching its decision. the letter of april informed him of his rights. in view of the fact that he has not been informed--that he has not informed this headquarters of his current address, and that he has left the united states without permission, it is considered that a letter sent to the last address on file at this headquarters is sufficient notification. a letter will be sent by certified mail informing your son of a convening date of the board. should you be aware of any facts or information which would assist the board in evaluating your son's case, it is suggested that you forward them to this headquarters. it is regretted that action of this nature must be taken in your son's case. m. g. letscher, first lieutenant, united states marine corps, administrative office, aviation class , reserve section." now, my letter is important. now, this was addressed to me. this is what i want the commission to know. this was addressed to lee, the original. then i wrote in behalf of my son, and this was addressed to me. then i received a letter addressed to mr. lee harvey oswald. by now, i am corresponding with these people, and i ask for--i need my letter. and i ask for the reason for the dishonorable discharge, and said that i would act in behalf of my son, because i have pertinent information to that fact. mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, i will ask the reporter to mark this as the next number. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , for identification.) mr. rankin. this is correspondence with regard to the dishonorable discharge. mrs. oswald, will you look at a photostatic copy of that correspondence? mrs. oswald. yes, that is the letter i just read. that is the back of the envelope. and this letter. mr. rankin. that is a very poor copy. mrs. oswald. is this the letter we taped? mr. liebeler. i don't believe so, no. mrs. oswald. i know we taped one, because we could not copy it. mr. rankin. can you read it? mrs. oswald. yes. "i desire to inform"---- mr. rankin. that is your letter of april , ? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. and who did you send it to? mr. liebeler. may i say this, mr. rankin: we did tape that, and i do have a transcription of it here. mrs. oswald. "i ask for a stay of action, and i will be willing to act in his behalf." mr. rankin. mrs. oswald. i will hand you what i am asking the reporter to mark as exhibit . i ask you if exhibit is a correct transcription of your letter. mrs. oswald. yes. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , for identification.) mrs. oswald. "i am writing you on behalf of my son. he is out of the country at present, and since i have no contact with him i wish to request a stay of action concerning his discharge. also, i desire to be informed of the charges against him. please state reasons for such discharge. after hearing from you, i will be willing to act in his behalf." so then comes a registered return receipt, addressed only to mr. lee harvey oswald. mr. rankin. now, will you examine the rest of exhibit and state whether that is the rest of the correspondence in regard to the matter that you know about? mrs. oswald. this is addressed to me--this envelope is addressed to me, that is right, sir. mr. rankin. and those photostatic copies in exhibit are all copies of your papers that you furnished to us, so we could make them, is that right? mrs. oswald. yes, sir, that is correct. mr. rankin. i offer in evidence exhibits and . the chairman. they may be admitted, with those numbers. (the documents heretofore marked for identification as commission exhibits nos. and were received in evidence.) mrs. oswald. i believe, chief justice warren, i am giving information that this commission did not have before. i do not think they had this return addressee, which is important, because after corresponding with me, as mrs. marguerite oswald, they sent the dishonorable discharge in lee's name, addressee only, when they knew he was out of the country. i would like to know why. that is another reason why i think that lee was probably an agent. mr. rankin. what do you mean by that, mrs. oswald? could you explain that a little more? mrs. oswald. yes. i do not think they wanted me to have the dishonorable discharge. again, they wanted me to be upset and tell people about it, but not have the proof of the dishonorable discharge. mr. rankin. don't you think it is possible that they felt he was the one involved, and, therefore, they had to get the word directly to him for legal reasons? mrs. oswald. no, sir, because, legally--i am glad you brought up the point, mr. rankin. your copies state that anyone can act in your behalf. and i wrote, as i read the copy, that i would be willing to act in my son's behalf, and i was making arrangements to get money and go there and act in his behalf because i had pertinent information. and they ignored my letter and sent this--yes, sir. mr. rankin. they may have felt you had not been given authority to act. mrs. oswald. well, what they may feel and what they should do--i am saying i am an american citizen, and i have some rights. and when i want to act in behalf of my son, we don't know whether he is living or dead, then i should act in behalf, i should not get a return. i am glad you are bringing these points up. my rights have been invaded and my son's. i make that statement for the record. now, we shall go to lee's childhood. the chairman. yes. mrs. oswald. now, chief justice warren, i have pictures of my son that mr. jenner would like this commission to have, because it shows lee at age and , and myself, which was supposed to be a life of psychiatric treatment. and i am more than happy--i volunteered to help my country in every way possible--to let the commission have everything that i have. but you must understand that these are very valuable pictures, sir. i am having people wanting rights to a book, and these pictures are very, very valuable to me. and i would not want any of these pictures lost. financially they are valuable, and to my story, sir. and they are the only pictures in existence. i have sold a few pictures in order to live. but the way i have done it--the photographer had this picture in particular--have come to my home and copied the pictures and gave it to me back in my hand. i cannot afford to have any of these pictures lost, sir. it is my story that some day i hope to write. so i was told that if i continue with the life history of lee as a child and show the pictures, then they would have to be admitted for the record. am i correct, sir? the chairman. that is our way of proceeding, yes. mrs. oswald. so now when i show the pictures, will you personally give me assurance that these pictures will in no way be used? the chairman. no, i cannot do that. the commission cannot do it. if you have something that you consider your personal property, that you do not want to give to the commission, you may withhold it. mrs. oswald. i did not say, sir, i did not want to give it to the commission. the chairman. just a minute. i do not believe they bear directly on the matter we are investigating. they might be helpful. they might not be helpful. but you may have the choice of determining whether you want to introduce them or not. but if you do introduce them, the commission cannot put any limitation upon the use that it might make of them. now, i don't mean by that that we are going to necessarily distribute them or anything of that kind. but the commission cannot limit itself in the reception of its evidence. it must have the power to do with it whatever is necessary to develop the facts. mrs. oswald. well, i give you that power. and i voluntarily would like for you to have everything i have, including pictures. but i just wanted assurance that these pictures would not be exploited in any way. for some reason or other--i am not putting it into words--but these are my personal pictures. and i want the commission to have them. and it is pertinent to the story, i understand, mr. doyle, is that correct--because it shows lee smiling, and his life and my life in new orleans, which, i understand that the commission is very interested in. am i not correct, mr. doyle? mr. doyle. mrs. oswald, as the situation has developed here, the introduction of the pictures into evidence, of course, must necessarily involve their physical copying, and the retention of the copies in the file. the commission itself has stated that it can give you no assurance whatsoever concerning the use of these papers. i would, myself, be of the view that the pictures introduced into the record here would be certainly used for the purposes of the investigation and the purposes of the commission as established by the executive order. but they can give you no blanket--or have not chosen to give you any blanket assurance of the use of the pictures, and have given you completely the choice that if you have any concern about it whatsoever, that you retain the pictures yourself. the choice they have given you is if you wish to have--to present the pictures to the commission in the course of your testimony, they will be glad to receive them, they will--there will be copies made of them, the originals, of course, will remain in your custody. their purposes will be--their use will be the uses of the commission. but the commission gives you no assurance whatsoever of the use, and gives you the complete choice of either submitting them or not under those circumstances. mrs. oswald. well, being a layman, i understand, i think, what you are telling me, in a way. but, on the other hand, being a layman, i feel actually i have no choice. you have to understand i am not an attorney. mr. doyle. but you do have a choice, because you are not here under subpena. your materials have not been subpenaed. the commission has advised you openly here that you may submit them or not as you see fit to do. so there is no force, no legal force at all. this is absolutely up to you. the only thing that has been expressed to you is that they can give you no assurance or guarantee as to what use the commission will make of them, that they will make what use they believe in their judgment is required by the executive order and the purposes of their investigation. mrs. oswald. i understand. and that is why i wanted the commission to have all pictures that i have. now, may i request something? i don't think it is presumptuous of me. maybe it is. could i sign for my rights for these pictures, and then let you have the pictures? i am afraid that they may get lost. the chairman. i think, mrs. oswald, if you have any doubt us to whether a misuse will be made of your papers, or if they are as valuable, moneywise, to you as you think they are, then i would suggest to you that you retain them yourself. we, of course, would be interested to see them, and they might be helpful--i don't know, because i don't know what you have there, or what context the pictures will be in. but as your lawyer has told you, you are not under subpena here, you appeared voluntarily because you requested to testify before us. those documents are not under subpena. they belong to you. they are in your possession. i have not seen them. you are at liberty to use them in your testimony or not, as you please. but if you do, the commission cannot put any limitations on the use that it will make of them. mrs. oswald. even though you have stated, chief justice warren, just now, that you do not know if they are valuable to the commission--and yet i have information from mr. jenner that they are valuable to the commission, because they pertain to lee's life at age to age . the chairman. yes, i say they might be. i don't know. i have never seen them. but the choice is with you, mrs. oswald. you may do just as you please. if you wish to testify concerning them, and put them in the hands of the commission, you may do so. but the commission cannot limit itself in the use of its testimony. mrs. oswald. i want the commission to have this. moneywise, it is more important for the commission to know this boy's life and my life--but also i need to protect myself financially, because i am a widow, and do not have the money. and this will mean--these are valuable pictures. i am not questioning the integrity of this commission or the loyalty. what i am questioning is that possibly they may get lost or someone may somehow or other get ahold of these pictures and exploit them, and get money for them, which has happened to some other pictures already, sir, and then---- the chairman. not those that you have given to the commission? mrs. oswald. no, sir--but with another---- the chairman. well, i think, mrs. oswald, it would serve no purpose for us to debate the matter. i have tried to tell you very frankly, and your lawyer has told you very frankly and correctly, that you have a free choice to do just as you please. and we will abide by that choice that you may make. mrs. oswald. may i confer with my lawyer for about minutes? the chairman. yes. we will take a recess, and you may talk to him. (brief recess.) the chairman. come to order, please. mrs. oswald. last night, mr. rankin, i read lee working at one place after tujaque. i do not know the name, sir. i think he worked there just a few days. he had the keys to the office. and, as i returned home from work one day, another young man was at the apartment, the door of the apartment, and said that lee was discharged, and that lee had the keys to the office, and just then lee walked up and gave this young man the keys. now, i do not know the name of the place. and i believe he just worked there, sir, a few days. i read that afterwards. if you will refresh me, i will give you any information i have. but it is hard for me to think of everything. i believe we have cleared up the business today that we have missed. i have decided--and maybe i am wrong, because to me money is only good as to its use. however, there have been so many things since the assassination that has not been in my favor, i believe that i am going to keep my personal pictures. the chairman. you may do so. mrs. oswald. if at any time in the future that you would like to have these pictures, i will be more than happy to have copies made and give them to the commission. there is another matter, mr. rankin, that is very important, that you asked me--governor connally's letter. mr. rankin. yes. mrs. oswald. i had read this at the press conference. a letter from lee harvey oswald to john connally, secretary of the navy. this is just written from the newspaper article. "i have been in the soviet union with the full sanction of the u.s. embassy in moscow." he asked the navy department to take the necessary steps to repair the damage to me and my family. "i shall employ all means to right the gross mistakes or injustices to a bona fide u.s. citizen, an ex-serviceman." now, i do not consider this a threat, because i, myself, if i had a dishonorable discharge, and i was a good marine for years, and i felt like it hurt my mother and my children, and my wife, i would make such a statement, because i am a very definite person, as you know by now. i have been testifying for days. and my son is of the same nature. he loved the marines, and as far as he was concerned, he served his country years. and it was a stigma to me and his children, and he wanted to right the wrong. so i do not consider this a threat. he went to austin. there was an article in the paper--trying to get this rectified, and the young lady gave a very nice report of lee, said he was very polite. this is not a threat. this is just how lee was tried immediately in a few hours time, newspaper talk, and so on and so forth. i would state this emphatically more maybe than lee did, if i had a dishonorable discharge, sir. mr. rankin. did you ever hear your son say anything against governor connally? mrs. oswald. no, sir. but here is what i have written down. the day at robert's house, when i came in from the country, i, myself, gave lee the copy--we had many copies--you showed me the copy--i gave him the copy and told him--i had written him and told him about the dishonorable discharge, but i did not send any papers, because i didn't want the russians to know. but when i came, i had a scrapbook, and i gave him a copy, mr. rankin, of the reason for dishonorable discharge. he says "don't worry about it, mother. i can fix that. it is no problem." so then the boy tried to fix it. and this is not a threat. my son is of this disposition, and he felt like he was a good marine. that i know. i would do the same. and i will read it now to governor connally: "i shall employ all means to right the gross mistake done to my family and my now dead son." i expect to write to anybody officially to rectify this mistake. i have shown this publicly at press conferences, and so i will employ all means to rectify this mistake--the mother of lee harvey oswald. i intended to do that. that is my life's work. i have the name of the man i talked to. chief justice warren--i will start from lee as baby, before i get to this. lee was born october , , in new orleans, la. his mother, marguerite claverie oswald, his father's name was robert edward lee, he was named after general lee. the family's name is harvey--his grandmother's name was harvey. and so he was named lee harvey oswald. lee was born months after the death of his father, who died from a heart attack, coronary thrombosis. lee was a very happy baby. i stayed home with the children as long as i could, because i believe that a mother should be home with her children. i don't want to get into my story, though. lee had a normal life as far as i, his mother, is concerned. he had a bicycle, he had everything that other children had. lee has wisdom without education. from a very small child--i have said this before, sir, and i have publicly stated this in --lee seemed to know the answers to things without schooling. that type child, in a way, is bored with schooling, because he is a little advanced. lee used to climb on top of the roof with binoculars, looking at the stars. he was reading astrology. lee knew about any and every animal there was. he studied animals. all of their feeding habits, sleeping habits. he could converse--and that is why he was at the bronx zoo when he was picked up for truancy--he loved animals. lee played monopoly. lee played chess. lee had a stamp collection, and even wrote to other young men and exchanged stamps, sir. and lee read history books, books too deep for a child his age. at age he was always instructed not to contact me at work unless it was an emergency, because my work came first--he called me at work and said, "mother, queen elizabeth's baby has been born." he broke the rule to let me know that queen elizabeth's baby had been born. nine years old. that was important to him. he liked things of that sort. he loved comics, read comic books. he loved television programs. but most of all he loved the news on radio and television. if he was in the midst of a story, a film--he would turn it off for news. that was important. and i have stated in , which is in print, that lee loved maps. lee would study maps, sir. and he could tell you the distance from here and there. and when he was home on leave, i was amazed. something was said about an airplane trip. immediately he knew how many miles in the air that that plane took. lee read very, very important things. and any and everything he could do. yet he played monopoly, played baseball. he belonged to the "y." he used to go swimming. he would come by work with his head wet, and i would say, "hurry home, honey, you are going to catch cold." and i considered that, sir, a very normal life. i am probably forgetting some things. so then robert joined the marines in --am i correct--that robert joined the marines? no, robert joined the marines in . we are now in fort worth, tex., until . so then i decided, since i was working, i did not want lee to be alone. up until this time, sir, he had a brother. so i sold my home at ewing street, and went to new york city, not as a venture, but because my older son, john edward pic, lived in new york, and had lived in new york for years. he was in the coast guard, as a military man. he has now been in the service years, and at that time it would have been approximately or years--i may be off because that is approximately. so he was stationed in new york. so i had no problem of selling my home and going there, thinking that john edward would leave new york. but the main thing was to be where i had family. and i moved to new york for that reason. mr. rankin. about what date was that? mrs. oswald. this was exactly august , because i wanted to get there in time for lee's schooling. and if i am not mistaken, robert joined the marines in july of . and that was my reason for going. i immediately enrolled lee in a lutheran school, because lee was not confirmed--he was baptized in the lutheran faith, but because of moving around--i had married mr. ekdahl in this period and so on, lee was not confirmed. i enrolled him in the lutheran school which took him approximately an hour or longer by subway to get there. it was quite a distance. that is when we first arrived in new york. i believe that lee was in that school a very short time, or weeks, because at this time i was living in my daughter-in-law's home and son. and we were not welcome, sir. we were welcome for a few days. but then we were to get a place of our own--because her mother lived with her, and her mother had left to go visit a sister. so lee and i could come to visit. but we were not going to live with john and his wife. so we just stayed there a short time. mr. rankin. was there any time that you recall that there was a threat of lee oswald against mrs. pic with a knife or anything like that? do you remember that? mrs. oswald. yes, i do. i am glad you said that. my daughter-in-law was very upset. the very first time we went there--i stated before, and i am glad i said that--that we were not welcome. and immediately it was asked what did we plan to do, as soon as we put our foot in the house. and i had made it plain to john edward that i was going to have a place of my own, that we were just coming there to get located. my daughter-in-law resented the fact that her mother--this went on before i got there--that her mother had to leave the house and go visit a sister so i could come, john edward's mother. i had never met my daughter-in-law. she didn't like me, and she didn't like lee. so she--what is the word to say--not picked on the child, but she showed her displeasure. and she is a very--not, i would say so much an emotional person--but this girl is a new yorker who was brought up in this particular neighborhood, which i believe is a poor section of new york. the mother had lived in this home all her life. and this girl cursed like a trooper. she is--you cannot express it, mr. rankin--but not of a character of a high caliber. at this particular time she had never been out of this neighborhood, or out of new york. and lee loved the little baby. and he played with the baby and wanted to hold the baby and everything, which she objected. we were not wanted, sir, from the very beginning. so there was, i think now--it was not a kitchen knife--it was a little pocket knife, a child's knife, that lee had. so she hit lee. so lee had the knife--now, i remember this distinctly, because i remember how awful i thought marjory was about this. lee had the knife in his hand. he was whittling, because john edward whittled ships and taught lee to whittle ships. he puts them in the glass, you know. and he was whittling when this incident occurred. and that is what it occurred about, because there was scraps of the wood on the floor. so when she attacked the child, he had the knife in hand. so she made the statement to my son that we had to leave, that lee tried to use a knife on her. now, i say that is not true, gentlemen. you can be provoked into something. and because of the fact that he was whittling, and had the knife in his hand, they struggled. he did not use the knife--he had an opportunity to use the knife. but it wasn't a kitchen knife or a big knife. it was a little knife. so i will explain it that way, sir. so immediately then i started to look for a place. i did find a place, i think, off the concourse. i do not remember the street. mr. rankin. was that in the bronx? mrs. oswald. off the concourse, in the bronx. and it was a basement apartment. i had shipped some of my furniture. it was in a storehouse at this time. so i got it out and put it in this basement. lee had his own single bed. it was a one--one great big, big room. but we had the kitchen--regular new york type style--the kitchen and the bedroom and everything together, but large enough--a big one-room apartment. and there was a single bed that lee slept on, and i slept on the studio couch. then lee went to school. mr. rankin. was that public school ? mrs. oswald. i have that information here. went to school in the neighborhood, public school , which is a junior high school in the bronx. it states here he attended of days. this is the place we were living that lee was picked up by the truant officer in the bronx zoo. i was informed of this at work, and i had to appear before a board, which i did. lee went back to school. then he was picked up again in the bronx zoo. and i had to appear before a board committee again. then the third time that lee was picked up, we were--i never did get a subpena, but we were told that he had to appear at children's court. but i never--how i got the notice to appear at children's court--i am at a loss, sir. but i did not contact at this time a lawyer or anything. i did not know. i did not think it was anything serious, because the texas laws are not like the new york laws. in new york, if you are out of school one day you go to children's court. in texas the children stay out of school for months at a time. lee had never done this. so i appeared with my son in court. there was a judge asked me if i want to be represented by court counsel. and i believe i said, yes, i believe i was represented by the court counsel at this particular time. and within a few minutes time--because there were hundreds of people sitting, waiting with their truant children, and it was just like this--you didn't take the time we are taking here, a half hour, to discuss the case. it was done immediately. my child was taken from me in the courtroom. mr. rankin. had he been out of school quite a bit? mrs. oswald. no, sir. at this time, he had not been out of school quite a bit. so then i was given a slip of paper--no, i am sorry. i was told where to go, where lee was, which was another office. they took lee from me in the courtroom, two men, officers, presumably. then i went into another office and here was lee. lee was wearing his brother's marine ring, just an ornament ring. they gave me lee's ring and the things he had in his pocket, and told me that lee was going to be at this home, which i think the name was the warwick home for boys. and gave me a slip of paper and told me when i could visit lee. and that was all i knew at this particular time. the child was immediately taken, and i was told to visit the child. now, i believe it was--this home was in brooklyn. i may have the name wrong. it was an old, old home in brooklyn. so i went to visit my son. and i hope some day to rectify this, because i think conditions of this kind in our united states of america are deplorable. and i want that to go down in the record. mr. rankin. did they tell you why he was taken to this home, your son? mrs. oswald. for truancy, yes, sir. so i had to stand single file approximately a block and a half, sir, with puerto ricans and negroes and everything, and people of my class, single file, until we got to the main part of this building, which had a wire, a very heavy wire, partition wire, a man sitting back of the desk, but a man in the front of the gate that let me in. i had packages of gum and some candy for my son. and i sat down there. and the gum wrappers were taken off the gum, and the candy wrappers were taken off. and my pocketbook was emptied. yes, sir, and i asked why. it was because the children in this home were such criminals, dope fiends, and had been in criminal offenses, that anybody entering this home had to be searched in case the parents were bringing cigarettes or narcotics or anything. so that is why i was searched. so i was escorted into a large room, where there were parents talking with their children. and lee came out. he started to cry. he said, "mother, i want to get out of here. there are children in here who have killed people, and smoke. i want to get out." so then i realized--i had not realized until i went there what kind of place we had my child in. we don't have these kinds of places in texas or new orleans, sir. then i realized what a serious thing this was. and this is when i decided i needed an attorney. but lee, i think, was approximately in that home--i am not sure-- or weeks, which accounts for his truancy that the papers say that lee was a truant, that he was out of school so long. it is because he was in this home, sir. that accounts for a lot of the truancy. mr. rankin. did you talk to him about his truancy, say anything to him about it, or ask him about it, how he happened to stay out of school? mrs. oswald. yes, sir, i asked lee. well, this comes in another part. mr. rankin. all right. mrs. oswald. so i left my son that day, and i think i visited him a couple of times after that. i am not quite sure. but in the meantime, i engaged an attorney. i do not know the name of the attorney, and i wish i did. when i told the attorney about lee--and i have stated this at a press conference--he raised the roof, so as to say. he was indignant. i cannot quote his exact words. but what he said was that new york state picked up these boys and put them on a farm, and they pay these boys to work on this farm for the state of new york. now, i may not be saying this exactly. you may have the picture of the home. but these boys work on the farm and are paid for it, i understand. that is all i can remember, sir, about this unpleasant thing, because i did not think it would ever come in my life, and after the time it happened i tried to put it out of my mind. but now i am refreshed a little on that. so lee was in this home or weeks, i believe. you probably have the record. so then we were asked to appear to court. i went into court with this attorney. and there, again, real fast we were in the courtroom and lee was brought in, and lee sat down by me. and i remember this distinctly, because lee had ear trouble quite often. and i saw his ear running, and i said, "lee, you are having an earache." and the judge heard me saying something to lee. he said, "what did you tell your boy, mrs. oswald?" i said, "judge, i asked him if he had an earache." i didn't know they were going to give me the child then. so the judge talked to lee and asked lee if he was going to be good, and go back to school. lee answered, "yes, sir." and he said to me, "mrs. oswald, i understand that you and your daughter-in-law do not get along." i said, "that is correct." and he suggested that lee would be much better off back in the open wide spaces that he was used to instead of in new york, where we had no family then, because the daughter-in-law and son were not friendly with us. and this judge suggested that. and the judge gave me my son, right then and there, gentlemen. i left the courtroom with my boy. he was given to me in my custody. now, that is all i know of the case. the particular case. from there, we went into an office where there was a probation officer, mr. john carro. mr. carro talked with lee and asked lee if he was going to go back to school. "yes, sir." he reprimanded him a little bit--maybe not that, but gave him a little talk. and he said, "lee, you are to report to me once a week for probation." i am going to stress this. i have been in this commission days. and you know i am very definite. so i was very definite with mr. carro. i did not mince my words. i said, "mr. carro, my son is not reporting to you once a week. this is not a criminal offense. he was picked up for truancy, he has assured the judge, promised the judge that he would be back to school. he has promised you he would be back to school. let's give this boy a chance, and let's see if he will go to school." "and then, mr. carro, if he doesn't go to school, then you can have him report to you." mr. carro didn't take that graciously, which is true. when you don't agree with anyone over you, then you are in the minority, and you just as well make up your mind right then and there, that is it. so from that time on mr. carro pestered me and lee. mr. carro would call me at work, sir, and say that he had gone by the school, and that they were having trouble with lee. and i went to the school and talked to the principal and she said, "mrs. oswald, what happened while the probation officer was here--lee moved the chair back, and it made a little noise." and that is what mr. carro reported. in plain words, gentlemen, mr. carro was indignant at my attitude, because he was an official. mr. rankin. what school was that? mrs. oswald. this was the first school, sir. then i moved. i am a little confused. just a minute. i took lee out of the first school because the children knew that he had been in the home, and i thought he didn't stand a chance. so i moved to help my child again. and i personally went with lee to the principal and told the principal--not in front of lee--had a talk with her--that lee had been in this home, and that if she could help him in any way, and knew of any friends, children his age that lived in the neighborhood where we lived, i would appreciate it. and she did help. there was a young lady in this building that we lived, in the bronx--now we are living near the bronx zoo. mr. rankin. is this the new school? mrs. oswald. this is the new school. and we are living near the bronx zoo, which is and something street. mr. rankin. and this is public school ? mrs. oswald. yes, sir--public school . so i talked to the principal and told her about the trouble and asked if she could not help us. mr. rankin. now, the place that he was committed to was--do you recall that was berkshire farms? mrs. oswald. no, because he was not committed to a farm, as far as i knew, sir. all i knew was that he was in this home in brooklyn. he was never committed to a farm, as far as i know, sir. he was in this home all this time. and this is where i am assuming, because i knew nothing about this--the psychiatric treatment took place, and naturally that is why they would have him in this home to observe him. and, by the way, i was called one day to go to the home and a young lady talked with me. and i sensed that she was questioning me for a reason, because i had been on my own all these years, and i am a business woman. so i remembered one distinct incident. she said, "mrs. oswald, how strong do you believe in education?" and i said, "i believe strongly in education, but not to an extent that a mother should go out and work and deprive her children of a mother's home and love in order to make the extra money to give her children a college education," because i happen to know that a college education sometimes is not as important as wisdom. there are college graduates that do not know how to apply their ability. and so to me--i could never be home with my children. i had to work and leave my children--which was a very sore spot, let's say. i would have given the world if i could have been home and raised my children. and here are women, because of material things, and because they want to give their children a college education, deprive their children of this motherly love, that i myself was deprived of because of an unfortunate affair. so to get education to that extent, no, sir, i do not approve of it. i think it is more important for children to come home and have someone in that home when they come home from school, and do without a college education. i am strongly for that, because of my experience. mr. rankin. was lee oswald a good student? mrs. oswald. i have his records from all the schools in new orleans, sir. but we are not through with new york--that will show he passed satisfactory grades. mr. rankin. how about new york? was he a good student there? mrs. oswald. i think he was an average student. yes. now, i personally brought lee to the school and talked to some of the teachers. and they told me that lee was a bright boy, but that he was bored with school--there was just something there. lee was in a sense bored with school in this sense--that lee was an overly bright boy, studious boy, and he should have been placed in a school that we have now, i understand, for special children of this sort. mr. rankin. but his grades were not too good during this period? mrs. oswald. they were passing grades, i would say. now, that is what i know about the new york situation. now, it has come out, gentlemen, that he had had psychiatric treatment there. i did not know of any psychiatric treatment there. but now i am assuming naturally he did have it then. there is a report on it. i wish to say this. i am just a practical nurse. i became a nurse because of my experiences, and i wanted to devote my life to humanity, which i have stated before. but i do know this. i work in hospitals, rest homes, private homes, and all of our hospitals, and all of our rest homes, and all of our institutions are understaffed. now, i think you will agree there. we are all understaffed. every one i have ever been in. so i will say if lee had psychiatric treatment in this home, there are hundreds and hundreds of children, he could not have had a complete psychiatric examination. we do not know. i do not know if he had a complete. but i will say that according to other institutions, that this institution was also understaffed. i am going to make one remark to mr. jack ruby. he has to have five psychiatrists. now, here is one little psychiatric examination on a -year-old boy. so, then we will go to lee's schooling in new orleans. mr. rankin. before you leave new york, did you ever tell anybody that you took lee oswald to new york so he could have mental tests at the jacobi hospital? mrs. oswald. no, sir, never. my child was a normal child--and while in new york. i explained to you he had a dog with puppies. the school teachers talked well about him. he had a bicycle. there was nothing abnormal about lee oswald. it has been stated also i was offered psychiatric treatment which is incorrect. this mr. carro i understand is a very big man. he may be supplying the files with all of this. but, sir, it is untrue. mr. rankin. then you went to new orleans after that? mrs. oswald. no. then they assigned a big brother to lee. this is important to the story. so this man came out to the apartment on several occasions and saw the type person i was and my son was. and he did not see anything wrong with the child. evidently not. because he suggested that it might be a good idea--i had told him the way mr. carro was doing. mr. carro was pestering me, sir, at work, with just little insignificant reports that i would call the school and the principal would assure me everything was all right. so he thought that it would be better if i would take the child away. and i didn't know i could do that. i didn't know exactly the charge. so, i said, "is it all right? they won't arrest us and bring us back?" he said, "no, there is no extraditing"--that was his words. so, i wrote mr. carro a letter explaining that i was taking--lee and i were going to new orleans, and lee had cousins his age in new orleans, and i thought the child would be better off amongst his own family. and the judge had recommended that if we could possibly leave new york that it would be better for lee. and i wrote mr. carro the letter, sir. i did not flee new york. i had the decency to write him a letter. and the big brother is the one that recommended this. now, that is what i know of the new york. mr. rankin. do you remember the name of the big brother? mrs. oswald. no, sir; i do not know the name of the big brother. but from the newspaper accounts, they know the name. the big brother stated how clean the apartment was, and how nice we were. mr. rankin. and then you went to new orleans, did you? mrs. oswald. yes, sir. then we went to new orleans. and we stayed at my sister's house, french street, and immediately lee enrolled in--let's get back to this. this is in fort worth, tex. lee attended the ridglea west school and graduated--was promoted to junior high in . in is when we went to new york. now, we are in new orleans. lee was immediately enrolled in beauregard school in new orleans, la., upon arriving in new orleans. and here is his certificate of promotion to high school. and they have stated that his attendance was very good. he just missed days, i think, out of the whole term, which is considered very good. mr. rankin. how was he as a student in new orleans? mrs. oswald. c grades. he was promoted, or he wouldn't have c grades. so that is two certificates there. then i have another certificate. he went to--no, i would not have the certain, and then from the promotion he was promoted to the warren easton high school. and that is the school that lee wrote the note--am i correct? mr. rankin. yes. it is already in evidence. he wrote and said you were going to san diego, and it was not your note at all. he signed your name. mrs. oswald. that is right. and then, as you know, robert was discharged from the marines, and robert did not want to live in new orleans. so there again--so we could be a family--and this young boy, who was the youngest, could be with a brother. i moved back to fort worth, sir, because robert was in fort worth so we could be a family again. however, i moved in july, and lee joined the marines in october. so we were just there a few months. lee attended arlington high school there. and when we came back to fort worth, tex., the school did not know what to do with lee. lee, i think, was approximately weeks entering the school. he was too far advanced from the new orleans and new york schools, and not advanced enough--let's see if i can explain this right--according to his age. he was too old to be in the junior, or vice versa. but i do know, and i have witnesses to this, that lee could not immediately enter school. they had to have a conference, a board conference, because of lee's curriculum from school. they didn't know which school to place him in. mr. rankin. how did he get along with you? did you get along well together? mrs. oswald. yes. lee was a very quiet and studious boy. none of my children gave me any trouble, thank god. we have no police record, sir, or anything like that. and the children were always more or less home. and particularly lee. lee would go to the movies, and things like that. he was a normal boy. but when he was home, he was most happy. and i am of this disposition. he could keep himself occupied--reading and when he watched a football game on television, he would have the score pad, and things of that sort. and so he was quite happy in his own way. now, here is something very important. while in new orleans, in order to go to arlington heights school, which is one of the ritziest schools in new orleans, all the wealthy people go there, and we happened to live in the vicinity--lee wanted a two-wheel bicycle, sir, and i bought him one. so when school opened, lee went to school on a two-wheel bicycle. can you picture this. a - / -year-old boy going to school on a bicycle, when all the other children had their own cars? just picture this. my children never did want anything, and particularly lee. mr. rankin. how did he get along with his brothers? mrs. oswald. well, now, at this time he didn't know too much about his brothers. john edward had been in the service since age , so it has been a number of years, other than leaves. and robert had just finished his -year hitch. so you see the brothers have had nothing to do with lee since age actually--otherwise than visits. because when robert came back, then lee joined the marines. now, this is the u.s. marine corps acceptance. and it says "i am very pleased to notify you that your son, lee harvey oswald, has successfully passed the mental, moral, and physical examinations," and so forth. my son was a marine. and i understand a very important marine. he was in electronics. i have read--one of the marines that was with him said when he defected to russia they had to change the system. he must have had a real responsible position, if lee defected to russia, and all the systems had to be changed. i don't know if this is correct. but this man made the statement, sir. mr. rankin. did he have any courts-martial that you knew about while he was in the marines? mrs. oswald. i did not know until what came out in the paper. and i have discussed that with several high officials, marines, and so on and so forth. a lot of men, they tell me, carry a gun. and if you did curse an officer, that is done sometimes, too--that is not anything criminal. i mean we all get provoked at some particular time. i am not taking up for the boy. i don't know what happened. but i know i myself would be guilty of that, if someone pushed me, that i may curse him. and i am sure it is done quite often. and i understand that lee slashed his wrist. i find that from the paper. mr. rankin. did you know anything about that? how that happened? mrs. oswald. no, sir--otherwise than what i know in the paper. i do not know, sir. mr. rankin. what about a man that was killed, that was one of his buddies in the marines? did you ever know anything about that? mrs. oswald. no. this is the first time i have heard about that. i haven't even read that in the paper. i did not know about that. if i can help you in any way--his picture in the marines--there are names of the men on the back. i do not know what they mean. but the names of the men are on the back of picture, sir. the chairman. when was it that he slashed his wrist--in the marine corps? mrs. oswald. i understand when he was in moscow--is that correct? i do not know otherwise from what i read in the paper. these things, how could i know. representative ford. may i see that picture? mr. rankin. in the soviet union? mrs. oswald. yes. and that is why, too, it has been stated that he was possibly an agent, to show, when the russians would not give him citizenship, he slashed his wrist, to show that he did not want to return back to the united states, and forced the russians to keep him there. that has been stated. mr. rankin. did you ever know that he shot himself while he was in the marines? mrs. oswald. i read that in the paper. mr. rankin. he never told you that? mrs. oswald. no, sir. and i read in the paper that it could have been an accident. mr. rankin. did you know anything about how good a shot he was? did he ever tell you that? mrs. oswald. lee came home with a trophy, but it is a marine trophy--may i have that please, i need a number. it is not on this. we have another picture. but it had lee harvey oswald. but it was given not to him, but to the platoon. and he was very, very proud of it. lee was very proud of his marine hitch, because every time he came on leave, that is all he talked about. that i know. and i am the only one that knows this. mr. rankin. was that trophy with regard to marksmanship? mrs. oswald. yes. now, marina would have that. i gave that to lee and marina when they returned from russia, and the marine book that lee was so proud of, and the baby book that i had all these years. and i think it was in regard to marksmanship. now, i have lee's--they are copying all of this, mr. doyle--lee's shooting record. i have that, sir. i have anything you want. it was left in his sea bag. and all of this was left in lee's sea bag. this is a picture of lee with his marines, and, it is a special, i think he was doing special work there. i am not familiar--i wasn't told that. but it is different than the other picture. lee went to many, many a school, gentlemen. he went to the marine air force base in biloxi, mississippi, to schooling. he went to jacksonville and some others. i remarked, "your brothers were not sent from here to there like you were." lee was in japan, lee was in corregidor, lee was in the philippines, and lee was in formosa. that has not been publicly stated. mr. rankin. do you know what schooling he had at these various places? mrs. oswald. no, sir. i would think that it was special schooling. mr. rankin. he never told you? mrs. oswald. no, sir. but the other brothers didn't have that type schooling. and i even remarked about it. mr. rankin. did you ever hear your son say anything for or against president kennedy? mrs. oswald. while marina and lee were in my home that month, and i had a television---- mr. rankin. about what time was that? mrs. oswald. this was july, --when they stayed the month with me. yes, they were delighted with president kennedy, both. mr. rankin. what did they say about him? mrs. oswald. nothing political--just "like president kennedy." he was telling marina about president kennedy. "i like president kennedy"--"i like, too." my son has never said anything to me politically about anyone. my son loved the marines, and loved his work and has never, never said anything against--the only time i questioned my son was ask him why he decided to come home, and he said, "not even marina knows that." that was the one question i wanted to know, because of the many things that they sent me from russia, as i have previously stated. that was the only thing. so that satisfied me. mr. rankin. did you know anything about his guns--what guns he had? mrs. oswald. oh, this is very important, and i am glad you brought this up. this is the part in new orleans that i forgot about. while lee was working for tujague & co. he started to have a bank account, and it was in a homestead. i do not know the name, but it was on canal street, or block of canal street, because it was even with exchange place. and he started to save his money. the purpose of saving his money was to go on a tour with a young group. he was working for a steamship place as a mess engineer so he was going around to all of these seagoing trips. and i saw the brochure. it was sponsored by very prominent people. there was nothing wrong with it. if he wanted to go, that was all right--could go on this. so he started to save his money to go. however, this was in january--you want the date? mr. rankin. yes. mrs. oswald. are we in in new orleans? yes. no, this would be. january, --lee took his money out of the homestead, which was approximately $ , or something like that. and lee harvey oswald bought an electric football machine--cost approximately $ . he bought a bow and arrow set--maybe about $ or $ . and he bought a gun. now, i don't know about guns. i was going to say bb gun, but i will not say it was a bb gun--but robert oswald will know--or a rifle. but it was not an expensive gun. he was just / years old. and i am of the opinion if he bought a real gun, i would have had to sign or something. i may be wrong. but anyhow it was a gun to go squirrel hunting or rabbit hunting. i will identify it like that. and then we can go into it further. and he paid $ on a coat for me. and the very first job that--the very first pay that lee got from this job from tujague sir, he came home with a bird cage on a stand that had a planter. it had the ivy in the planter, it had the parakeet, and it had a complete set of food for the parakeet. his very first pay. and then he paid his room and board. i kept this bird cage--the stand was collapsible--all these years, in the back of my car, and put it up, no matter where i was on a case, and had the bird up until about years ago--no, i had the bird, and gave it to lee when they came back from russia. what has become of it i do not know. i gave the bird and bird cage to lee and marina when they came back from russia. i am trying to give you the picture of this boy. would you ask me some more questions, please? it is awful hard for me to remember everything. mr. rankin. do you remember any other guns he had? mrs. oswald. no, sir. this is the only gun that i have known lee to have. mr. rankin. now, about officer tippit. mrs. oswald. let me finish about robert and his gun. this is important to you. when we came to new orleans, i worked at washer bros., in new orleans--transferred from--goldrings in new orleans is washer bros. in fort worth, tex. so i worked at washer bros. lee came into the place i worked one day with the gun and wanted me to sign a paper so he could sell the gun. well, i was indignant that he came where i was working with a gun. i said, "lee, we will talk about it later." and several of the salesladies thought that i brushed him off real fast. well, now, robert bought that gun from lee, and gave lee $ for the gun. it was months we were living in new orleans. so robert gave lee $ for the gun. and robert used to go hunting with it at his mother-in-law's house. i have stated they live in the country and they go rabbit and squirrel hunting. robert would know about the gun, the type gun and everything. i do not know. mr. rankin. you have told us all you know about the gun? mrs. oswald. that is all i know about the gun. and robert bought the gun from lee, gave him $ . mr. rankin. you haven't told us whether you thought your son killed officer tippit. mrs. oswald. i strictly do not believe that lee killed officer tippit. mr. rankin. can you tell us why? mrs. oswald. yes. i am sorry to have to elaborate so, but this, as you know, is very important. mr. lane and myself are investigating, with hundreds of investigators. i have over , letters. we have reporters and people investigating for us, that are not satisfied with the whole case. and mr. lane has a lot of affidavits. i cannot say what mr. lane has. but he is doing a very good job about this. and we have come to the conclusion that lee is not guilty of officer tippit. now, i gave you a picture yesterday--you might have it there, i don't know, mr. rankin--that could possibly be marina and the child. we have found out that the book depository building--mr. lane has this information--it is owned by the city of dallas--i should not go into that, i don't know. he has all of this information. or it is a lease. it is government-owned some way or other. i should not say. mr. lane has all of this. we have been investigating night and day. the chairman. well, we have the picture, mrs. oswald. mrs. oswald. all right. on the picture, then--and i have talked to mr. doyle about this--you might think i am crazy to say so. the first thing i saw in this picture--this picture was sent to me by a woman with a letter telling me to look at the picture carefully. i did not read the letter. i did not want her opinion, or other people's opinion about this picture. we have a lot of comments about this picture. i immediately looked at the picture when i opened it. the first thing i saw was my son lee and marina and the child. then when i called this woman long distance. i said, "you want to know what i saw in the picture?" and i told her. she says, "no, that is not what i see." representative ford. did you say your first reaction was that you saw lee, marina and the child? mrs. oswald. that was my first reaction. and, if i am correct--i don't say i am correct--but if i am correct, this would be the solution. lee was escorted out of the building. kennedy is shot now--i will have to show you the picture. he has passed the window where lee's rifle is supposed to be. and he is shot in the neck. he has passed this particular part. he is shot in the neck. and then this man that i think is lee--and i wish i could swear to it, but i am fully convinced--is being escorted out of the building and could be escorted--i am speculating, sir--i have no proof of this. i wish i did. could be escorted out of the building by a policeman. mr. rankin. is the picture you are looking at the one you referred to? mrs. oswald. yes, sir, it is--exhibit . mr. rankin. that is exhibit ? mrs. oswald. now, this is who i think lee is. mr. rankin. that is---- mrs. oswald. there is no face. mr. rankin. that is the man right in the doorway? mrs. oswald. yes, sir. this is lee's build and everything. the first thing i saw. now, they think this is lee. no, sir, i do not. everybody thinks this is lee. mr. rankin. when you say they think--it is the man leaning against the side of the doorway, is that right? mrs. oswald. yes. that is the picture that everybody is convinced is lee. mr. rankin. and you think it is the one next to him that doesn't show any face? it shows the arms over the head? mrs. oswald. he has his arms up in the air. now, that is what i saw immediately--against everybody else seeing it. and this woman and child could possibly be marina. now, to explain this--whether i thought lee shot officer tippit or not--lee could be escorted out of this building with a gun in his back possibly. i am just speculating, sir. but there is a lot of speculation in this case all over the world. from foreign countries i have letters. and that is how he got out of the building. and this same officer could have been killed, because he was involved in this, and then he could have been killed, to be kept quiet. there is a possibility of this, gentlemen. mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, will you take this blue pencil and carefully mark on exhibit ? mrs. oswald. i don't mean to be telling this commission what to do. and i cannot do it. but i would like to have this picture printed. and i am willing--i have some few dollars--i have been selling some pictures. i am willing to give a reward of $ , if this picture can be printed and these people come--it would have to be secret service, fbi, and state their names. i would like to have the people here--let us find out who those people are. mr. rankin. will you mark the letter "a" above the part that you have circled on exhibit , that you say are marina and the little girl? mrs. oswald. all right. mr. rankin. and "b" over what you circled as being your idea of lee oswald being there. mrs. oswald. now, that is what i saw, and nobody else has seen this. they see the man next to him. would you want me to put the man next to it that they see as lee? he has the same clothes on as lee. mr. rankin. well--you can testify the man that other people said was lee oswald, that you pointed to before on exhibit , would be the one in between, would that be right? mrs. oswald. yes. he has the same clothes as lee. mr. rankin. mr. chairman, we offer in evidence exhibit as now marked with the identification. (the document referred to was received, as indicated, as commission exhibit no. .) mr. rankin. do you have any other reasons why you think that officer tippit was not killed by your son lee oswald? mrs. oswald. i do not. but, gentlemen, mr. mark lane has affidavits. and we are investigating this--if you will have his testimony. he has pertinent information to this. i intend, when i finish here--i am going to be very quiet about what happened here, with no comments. but when i finish here, i am going on speaking tours. i am going to continue the investigation of the shooting. this is for you. but i intend to continue as long as this commission is in session, to investigate, like we have been doing, we have come up with some very---- the chairman. some very what? mrs. oswald. very important factors in this case. the chairman. well, i thought that is what you were here to tell us about. mrs. oswald. i am not the investigator. mr. lane is the investigator. mr. lane is my son's attorney, representing my son. and he is investigating the death of president kennedy and the consequent murder of my son. and he is making tours. and we have these reporters. and we have people giving us their opinions. we have many, many letters from expert riflemen. and i have in my possession--they also write to me--that have gone through this particular instance, and say it cannot possibly be done in that length of time and so on and so forth. we have a lot of expert opinions. mr. rankin. are you willing to give those to the commission? mrs. oswald. yes, sir, we want to. this is what i say is our american way of life. this boy was shot down handcuffed, within a few hours time, without trial or jury or counsel, even. he did not have a right to defend himself. so mr. lane immediately started to defend this boy. and people have come to our rescue. when i read mr. lane's brief, and i realized the truth of some of the statements he said, i contacted mr. lane, as you know, and we tried to come before the commission. so from now on, when i am through with this commission, i am going to work with mr. lane in my own way--i am booked in new york on a tour next week. and i am going to talk only about the investigation. we have help, sir. we have mr. laurence ross, who is in new zealand, who writes articles--very good. and captain wooster, is an expert rifleman of new zealand. he does this all the time. he goes all over. i am not saying it correctly. but he is an expert. and he said that he himself could hardly do it. and he practices all the time. that is his--that is what he does for a living. he is an expert. and we have many, many such letters. i have , letters, sir. mr. doyle has seen my letters and read a few. we have attorneys writing us. we have ministers. we have all types of people that are not satisfied with this boy being charged with the assassination of president kennedy. and, of course, not satisfied with the way he was shot down without trial. and we are going to continue to investigate and fight this in our own way, when i leave the commission, sir. the chairman. do you have an agent for this tour, lecture tour you are making? mrs. oswald. no, sir; i do not. mr. lane has--well, i don't say booked me, because that would not be the word. but i am supposed to appear monday at town hall in new york--no, tuesday, the th. it is going to be a forum. there are three very prominent men going to be on the panel. and we are going to ask questions and talk. we will have our public support by bringing these matters before the public, because we are convinced--and there are millions of other people convinced, also--that this is not as plain as it seems to be, that there is more to it. and they are not satisfied. we are going to continue to investigate, with the help of the public. the chairman. are you to be compensated for these lectures? mrs. oswald. no. my trip is being paid to new york. and i am to live in a home with a family. as far as that, i know nothing else about this. the chairman. who does know the details of it? mrs. oswald. well, now, mr. lane would know the details. and maybe you think i am being a very foolish woman. but here. when i read--because i have been very cautious so let's say now i am not being cautious. but here is why. when i read mr. lane's brief--and i don't know, gentlemen, if you have read it--but i believe it would be pertinent to this commission to get a copy. it is written in the guardian--two or three briefs. and i was convinced this man had some pertinent ideas about it. and when i engaged mr. lane, he said, "mrs. oswald, i will tell you about myself." i said, "i do not want to hear. as far as i am concerned, you could be a communist. but to me a communist is a human being. that is just his way of life." we are americans. we have japanese people. that is their way of life. a communist, as long as he is not hurting our government, that is his right to be a communist. that is his way of life. i did not want to know anything about mr. lane, because i knew mr. lane wrote sensible things, that mr. lane was interested. and what he wrote made sense. and that is all i am interested in, sir. if mr. lane is getting money, and i am appearing, that is just fine. i am not interested. if i can get before the public and through mr. lane doing it, i want to get before that public and state my american way of life and try to prove my son is innocent. the main part of this is to try to prove lee harvey oswald innocent. the chairman. very well. mr. rankin. you said during your testimony that an agent showed you a picture at the six flags inn. do you remember that? mrs. oswald. yes, and i am glad you brought that up, because i have notes on this, too. i have something important to say about that. mr. rankin. i will ask the reporter to mark this. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mrs. oswald. before i see a picture, see--if it was in a square, cupped in a hand, i believe it would be better for me for identification. that is the way i saw it. it was cupped in his hand. mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, all i have is exhibit , in the shape it is in. and i will hand it to you and ask you if you recall that as being the picture that was shown to you. mrs. oswald. no, sir. this is not the picture shown me. the picture that was shown me was a full face and just shoulders. this is not the picture. this picture was about this size, very glossy black and white, with a big face and shoulders. i have background here, a lot of white. but this took the whole picture--the face and shoulders. and this door was just ajar. and this man had this picture--and the two corners were cut. mr. rankin. about what size is the picture you are looking at? mrs. oswald. that is about three by four--approximately three by four, cupped in this man's hand, and the two corners were cut. the two top corners. and a very glossy picture, black and white, with a big face and shoulders. this is the picture shown me, sir. now, at six flags inn, about days later, when i entered the room, on the table were a lot of newspapers. i walked into the room in the presence of my son, and all of the agents. as i stated before, marina and i knew nothing of what went on. we did not know how lee was shot or anything, because we did not sit down and watch television. mr. rankin. what son are you talking about? mrs. oswald. robert. so this is approximately the wednesday, the th--no--sunday was the th. about the th--it was a few days after lee was shot, a couple of days. so i walked into the room, and i picked this paper up and turned it over, and i exclaimed, "this is the picture of the man that the fbi agent showed me." and one of the agents said, "mrs. oswald, that is the man that shot your son." believe me, gentlemen, i didn't even ask his name. and nothing more was said. now, that is very unusual. mr. rankin. now, the picture that you are talking about that you picked up, was a picture in the newspaper? mrs. oswald. in the newspaper. the bottom part of the newspaper. i can see that like i can see the picture. i had never seen the picture before. mr. rankin. did you later learn whose picture that was? mrs. oswald. yes, when i returned to my home in fort worth, tex., about a week later, mr. blair justice, of the star telegram, brought me all the papers, that was the next time i saw the pictures and knew it was mr. ruby. and it was a bottom page, and it was this picture shown me. now, this is what i want to know. mr. rankin. tell us who was there when you said that, about the picture in the paper? mrs. oswald. mr. mike howard, mr. garry seals--well, all of the agents there. the room was full. and robert oswald was there. the room was full. mr. rankin. was marina there? mrs. oswald. marina was in the bedroom. marina and i stayed in the bedroom with the children. we could get snatches of the television and so on. the children had diarrhea and so on. we were busy. as i picked the paper up and turned it over, it was on the back. this picture i saw, the same picture. mr. rankin. do you know whether your son lee oswald knew jack ruby? mrs. oswald. no, sir, i have no way of knowing that. i just hope that he did, if i am right. if lee is an agent, i hope he knew jack ruby. representative ford. when you made that statement, after looking at the newspaper, did you say it loudly enough for people in the room to hear it? mrs. oswald. yes, sir, because they answered me. they said, "that is the picture of the man that shot your son." but nothing has been said since that. that is the part that i question all about this. and then i am not asked to be subpenaed at jack ruby's trial or anything. the fbi says yes, they showed me a picture, but that wasn't a picture of jack ruby, not even giving me a chance. i don't understand. something is not according to hoyle. i keep telling you gentlemen. now, i can identify this picture, i believe, out of a hundred pictures. it was a black and white glossy picture of a big face and shoulders. and why i express it--he had it cupped in his hand, and he poked his arm and his hand with my bifocals, and all i could see was the picture and the hand. i didn't even see mr. odum so much. that was that hand poked in front of me. i am positive of this. yet i am not asked any more about the picture. they state, yes, they showed me a picture, but not this picture. i am positive, gentlemen. mr. rankin. i will ask you about a list of names and see if you know any of them, or if your son, lee oswald, knew any of them, to your knowledge. mrs. oswald. i will be happy to answer. mr. rankin. karen bennett, do you know that? mrs. oswald. yes. i have inquired about this karen bennett. mr. rankin. did you know her? mrs. oswald. i do not know whether i knew her or not. i have asked several people to investigate this for me. upon returning from the country on an ob case. i went to work for royal clothiers, in fort worth, tex., as an outside sales lady. in ob you have to wait for the babies--and i needed to live. there was a young lady there by the name of carol, i called her. it could be karen. looked very much like the young lady i saw on the television. that is the first time i connected the two. her father was one of the biggest gangsters in fort worth, tex. and he himself was killed by the gangland of fort worth, tex. why i know that--the manager of this royal clothiers had remarked who karen's father was, and i said to him, "i don't appreciate your broadcasting that. i think what her father did has nothing to do with the girl. she is working. give her a chance to her own life." i am always standing up and getting myself in trouble. i want you to know that. maybe i am not liked. but if that makes not being liked, i will continue not being liked, sir. so this is when i first started to work. however, i found out that the young lady also had another job at night, which is all right. she was working as a barmaid in a tavern on hemphill street, in fort worth, tex., and she had two small children, and so if she worked at the royal clothiers during the day, it was necessary that she work at this saloon, or whatever you want to call it at night. mr. rankin. was she married? mrs. oswald. no, she was not married. that maybe is what she had to do to support her children. and i understand, because i was left alone. but--she and i became involved in this way. in the front of the store was a showcase with cheap jewelry. this is a credit place, rings, diamond rings, and bracelets. and carol had the key to this case, and so did i. and there was some talk about a ring or something missing. i realized right then and there i could not put myself in a position of things being stolen, because here was a girl who they said her father was a gangster, and she was working in a bar. and my son was a known defector. so i quit that job. now, on television for the ruby trial here comes the girl. i thought i recognized this girl. the name is karen bennett. and i called her carol, it could be karen bennett. i didn't have much to do with the girl. so i immediately told this story to mr. jack langueth of the new york times, and i told also to another star telegram reporter, mr. john mcconnoch, because i wanted them to investigate. but i have not heard anything about it. mr. rankin. how about bruce carlin? mrs. oswald. no, sir. mr. rankin. you don't know whether your son knew him? mrs. oswald. no, sir. i would not know anybody that my son knew. that i am positive--because he never did tell me any of this. but continue. mr. rankin. robert kermit patterson, also known as bobby patterson? mrs. oswald. no, sir. mr. rankin. donald c. stuart? mrs. oswald. no, sir. mr. rankin. charles arndt? mrs. oswald. no, sir. mr. rankin. james a. jackson? mrs. oswald. no, you know, a few of those names sound to me like they might be on the back of both of these pictures. i am not sure. mr. rankin. they are supposed to be associates or friends or people that mr. ruby knew and associated with closely. stanley or katya skotnicki? mrs. oswald. no, sir. mr. rankin. larry crafard, or crawford? mrs. oswald. no, sir. mr. rankin. do you remember that name? mrs. oswald. no, sir. i was trying to connect the name with a couple. mr. rankin. do you know whether he ever spent any time in the silver spur? mrs. oswald. if lee ever did? mr. rankin. yes. mrs. oswald. i have had no knowledge of lee for year. none whatsoever. mr. rankin. and before that do you know whether he spent any time in the silver spur in dallas? mrs. oswald. no, sir. and before that, as to what i do know, that lee did not drink and lee did not smoke, and lee wasn't the type--not that he did not maybe go into saloons--but from what i know of him, he did not go into places like that of his own. if he was working he might have gone into these places. mr. rankin. these are the nightclubs jack ruby was associated with. you recognize that? mrs. oswald. no, i don't. mr. rankin. and the vegas club was another one. do you know whether he spent time there? mrs. oswald. i would have no way of knowing. mr. rankin. and the sovereign club? mrs. oswald. i have no way of knowing. i am going to say, again, mr. lane would have ways of knowing about all these clubs and everything, because that is his part of our investigation. i would like to get back to patrolman tippit. mr. rankin. all right. i just want to try to cover this book about lee oswald's marksmanship. that has been marked exhibit . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , for identification.) mr. rankin. it is a book that you brought here. mrs. oswald. yes, it was left in his sea bag, when he came home from the marine corps. mr. rankin. and that reads, "u.s. marine corps score book, oswald, l. h." mrs. oswald. that is correct. mr. rankin. that is your son's? mrs. oswald. that is correct. that is his platoon, , that is the one he got the trophy with. mr. rankin. were the various marks in that book in pencil that you see there in the book when you first found it? mrs. oswald. yes, sir, i have not touched the book. mr. rankin. is it in the same condition? mrs. oswald. that is the same condition that it was in his sea bag. mr. rankin. we offer in evidence exhibit , and ask leave to substitute a copy. the chairman. it may be introduced. (the document heretofore marked as commission exhibit no. was received in evidence.) mr. rankin. mr. reporter, will you mark this ? (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification and received in evidence.) mr. rankin. mrs. oswald. i will ask you to glance through exhibit and state whether or not that appears to be photostatic copy of---- mrs. oswald. yes, that is the photostatic copy---- mr. rankin. of exhibit ? mrs. oswald. that is correct. mr. rankin. and you will see it has the same markings. mrs. oswald. yes, sir, that is correct. mr. rankin. this is a copy we will substitute. now, do you want to tell about the shooting of officer tippit? mrs. oswald. yes. i have many, many clippings--as i say, we have all these people working. and we have come to the conclusion, and have never seen where they had an autopsy on patrolman tippit or even his gun or anything. in other words, patrolman tippit's life has been quiet from the very beginning after the shooting. i have never seen anything about him in print. and we question where all the money that has been given to mrs. tippit has come from. that is a tremendous amount of money--tremendous for donations. the chairman. you say you question the money? mrs. oswald. yes, sir; the donations to mrs. tippit. the chairman. you mean you question whether she received them or not? mrs. oswald. no--where is the money coming from? as far as she knows, sir, they are donations. but where is the actual money coming from, because it is such a large amount? like i question marina's money. she has now $ , . that is just what they have stated she has. what she has may be more. but that is a lot of money for donations, a tremendous lot of money. and mrs. tippit has, i think, almost half a million dollars. is that correct? i am not quite sure. but, anyhow, it is a large amount of money. and with our investigation and things that are not according to hoyle, we do question where the money is coming from. the chairman. do you have any idea where it comes from, after your investigation? mrs. oswald. well, mr. lane has. i do not have all the information. he has this information. and we are still investigating it, sir. and we will investigate if it takes another year or two. we are going to continue to arrive at the truth. mr. rankin. you referred to an article in the time magazine of february , , volume , no. , when you said there were some things that were wrong in it--do you remember that? mrs. oswald. yes, sir. mr. rankin. did you write a letter about this assassination of president kennedy to president johnson at some time? mrs. oswald. no, sir; i never have. mr. rankin. did you send a telegram? mrs. oswald. no, sir. the only telegram i sent to president johnson was stating that i had sent a telegram to you and chief justice warren, if you remember. mr. rankin. did you get any response from the white house? mrs. oswald. no, sir; i did not get a response from the white house. and i am indignant at the response that i did get. what it did was to inform me, i was so graciously treated by mr. kennedy and his administration, as i have stated and testified, that i am shocked that i am now to be told that i am not to worry the president. "in response to your telegram to the president, i wish to inform you that any requests or any information dealing with the inquiry conducted by chief justice warren should properly be directed to the commission. i note in your telegram that you have directed your request to the chief justice and to mr. rankin, the commission's general counsel. sincerely, lee c. white, assistant special counsel to the president." mr. rankin. that is the response that you received from the white house? mrs. oswald. from the telegram that i sent, when i sent a telegram to you and chief justice warren--i sent him a telegram. i have it right here, sir. you don't know about the telegram. here is a copy of the telegram. "president lyndon b. johnson. i have sent night letters to chief justice earl warren and j. lee rankin imploring both in the name of justice and our american way of life to let my son lee harvey oswald be represented by counsel so that all witnesses including my son's widow will be cross-examined. respectfully yours, mrs. marguerite oswald." and this is the response to that. and i don't think that is a gracious response at all. if i want to write the president or send him a telegram, i think i have as much right as anyone else to do so. mr. rankin. did you comment on the fact of this response from the white house when you received it to anybody? mrs. oswald. yes, sir. there was a reporter from time magazine that i commented to, because i was indignant, as i said. and he said, "well, if you or your next door neighbor or anybody walking in the street wanted to write the president, that is our american way of life." and i agreed with him. mr. rankin. now, you are quoted in this article as saying "why, i have got as much right as any citizen to write the president of the united states, to petition him, and let me tell you this, mr. johnson should also remember that i am not just anyone, and that he is only president of the united states by the grace of my son's action." is that a correct quote? mrs. oswald. no, that is not a correct quote. and that is why i was indignant yesterday when i read that. and there is more discrepancies. i did tell him about receiving the letter, and i had just received it--that i was indignant they should write and as much intimate that i should not write the president. i made a special appeal to the president. mr. rankin. do you recall what you did say? did you say anything like this? mrs. oswald. no, sir. there was nothing said to this reporter about president johnson--because i believe my son is innocent. so if i say that, then i would be saying that my son is guilty. and that is why the president is now the president. no, sir. i did not say that. mr. rankin. what reporter for time magazine was that that you were talking to? mrs. oswald. i can find out the name for you, or i can think about it. let's see. i think the name is sullivan. i did not want to think--but i think it is sullivan. do you have that information? mr. rankin. no. mrs. oswald. well, i will get it for you, or maybe it will come to me. mr. rankin. all right. mrs. oswald. but i do know, because i was paid for the picture--one of the pictures in that magazine. mr. rankin. we would appreciate your telling us as accurately as you can. mrs. oswald. i want to give you any and every information i can. the chairman. did the man who interviewed you in this matter also pay for the picture--the same man? mrs. oswald. yes sir--for the time magazine. mr. rankin. did he pay you for any part of the story? mrs. oswald. no sir. no, i am wrong there, he did. he paid me for part of the story. that is not the story. this isn't the story that was supposed to have come out. it was a much nicer and softer story. but we have found out that when we give these press notices, that they don't come out the way you give them. and they explain--like if i was to tell mr. sullivan, "i am disappointed in your story"--"well, mrs. oswald, our editor edits to make room," and so on. that is what you get. i was disappointed in the story, because the story was that i felt so sorry for marina, to think that she had to go through the rest of her life thinking in her mind that her husband was the killer of president kennedy, and that she would have to tell her children that she had gone down in history, that their father was the killer of president kennedy. and i went on with a long story. i said--they said "marina had stringy hair, and she didn't have this or that." let me tell you, i would rather have marina with the stringy hair and less clothes, but thinking that her husband was innocent, like she thought the days i was there--rather than the picture now, where she smokes, she no longer nurses her baby, she left her baby in texas to come to the warren commission, which is not the marina i know. "marina, mama, no, no, she never left her children." and well groomed. but she thinks now her husband shot president kennedy. what an awful thing. i would much rather have no money and stringy hair and be the girl i was before, and believe my husband was innocent. the chairman. how much did life pay you for your story? mrs. oswald. is that pertinent? the chairman. or time, rather. mrs. oswald. is that pertinent to the commission, or is that my personal? mr. doyle. i don't think the chief justice--he has simply asked you a question. if you wish to answer the question that is fine. if you don't, if you tell the chief justice you don't wish to answer the question---- mrs. oswald. well, it doesn't have any bearing. i think the amount i got would be immaterial to the commission. i don't know. the chairman. well. i think it might be material under some circumstances. but if she doesn't wish to tell us, that is all right. mrs. oswald. it is not--just like the pictures. i want you to have the pictures. and you didn't seem to think they were important enough. i am asking if this is important to the commission, because that is my personal life. it is no crime to sell the pictures. i have no job or income. if i want to sell a picture to a magazine or a newspaper, and protect myself financially, i am going to continue to do that. mr. doyle. the commission has stated to you that it would be interested in knowing, that it feels it might be of some value to them. but if you do not wish to say anything about it, they would not press you. so again, it would be completely up to you. mrs. oswald. i think that would probably, like these pictures, be my personal---- mr. rankin. did you learn about the attempt of your son to shoot general walker? mrs. oswald. i am delighted you asked me that question. i have these notes here, and didn't go through that. the first time i knew about general walker was through the paper. now, i became indignant. i do not remember the quotes. but why i became indignant, was that i had lee's handwriting in russian. but no one came to me to find out about this note. that is the part, gentlemen, that is so peculiar about this whole thing. i understand through reporters that the note was shown to mrs. ruth paine, and wanted to know if the handwriting was lee's handwriting. but no one has come to find out if i had any handwriting of lee in russian, which i have. mr. rankin. did you think this was in russian? mrs. oswald. yes. i am under the impression that the note was in russian. it stated in the paper. mr. rankin. when did you learn about the walker incident? mrs. oswald. through the newspaper. and it has been changed, the story, now. if i can remember. now, i will get this for you. i have a friend that has one of the most complete scrapbooks in the united states, that helps in this investigation. and i can get all these articles, sir. and i will help in every way possible. if i remember correctly, it was stated that marina found this note in the room that says "i may be arrested, and if so get in touch with the russian consul" and told her where to go to the jailhouse. i wish i knew the exact quote. so we are getting back to an agent now. from what i remember in the beginning, he did not say in the note that he was going to kill general walker--that he would be involved in something that might cause him to be arrested and so on. i remember this. that was in the very beginning, sir. it came out in fort worth, tex. so he is going to be involved in something. that doesn't mean he is going to shoot general walker. mr. rankin. when did you learn that he did try to shoot general walker? mrs. oswald. as the story started to leak out from the paper, what we call leaks. i have to say this, because we are investigating this. i am not the main investigator. but i talk to people. they call, and i get letters from them. every now and then mr. jim martin, who is the business manager for marina, would quote marina--not marina, but he would quote marina about general walker, quoted her about thinking in her mind that her husband had killed the president. and i was firing back through the newspapers and saying mr. jim martin was an american citizen, and i didn't appreciate him quoting my daughter-in-law about these things, because they are of no advantage. how can they prove that lee had killed general walker, because now maybe they would not have the bullets--and so on. it happened before. mr. rankin. you knew that he was not killed. mrs. oswald. what good would it be for mr. martin to make a statement like this that marina said, and publicize it, when they possibly could not now prove that lee had anything to do with it, gun or bullets or anything. i could not see his purpose in doing this--which has hurt my daughter-in-law very much. i have many letters from people expressing their opinion that they did not appreciate her coming out with these remarks. but it is mr. jim martin. marina is a foreign girl, and doesn't know what these people are doing to her, mr. rankin. i have publicly fought this over and over--if you have my quotes from the fort worth star telegram and so on, and probably the new york papers. i deeply feel sorry for marina. marina is a russian girl. maybe if her husband was picked up to be a murderer, maybe they would shoot him in russia. i don't know. but here we have an american way of life that marina is not familiar with. mr. rankin. don't you want her to tell the truth about it? mrs. oswald. i want marina to tell the truth just like i want to tell the truth. but from my testimony here, i have found out that marina has lied. mr. rankin. what have you found out about the walker incident? have you found anything about that was untrue that marina said? mrs. oswald. that marina said it? mr. rankin. yes. mrs. oswald. i have not heard marina say it. i have not heard marina say it. i can answer this way. this comes from mr. jim martin. there is many, many things about mr. jim martin and mr. thorne that i don't think maybe it is right that i should say these things in front of the commission, because they are rumors. but a rumor, you will have to, in a case as big as this, and where there are so many people involved, you have to analyze these rumors. i will say this: i understand from many, many a source that the dallas bar association is going to have mr. jim thorne before them. now that is my understanding there. mr. rankin. so all you know about the walker incident is what you have read in the papers. mrs. oswald. what i have read in the paper. and i certainly did not appreciate that. mr. jim martin is a citizen, if marina is not. mr. rankin. now, did you ever ask your son, lee oswald, whether he was an agent of anybody? mrs. oswald. no sir, i have never asked lee oswald if he was an agent because i felt like he would not tell me. mr. rankin. but you have not asked him. mrs. oswald. no, i have not asked him. oh, one very important thing that i must tell you. on november --that was the night of november , and the day of november was when i found out that marina was going to live with someone else, and we had no contact. so i knew i wasn't wanted or involved. i was in the bedroom. and i left the inn of the six flags, gentlemen, under strict security protection. i opened the door and had my coat and pocketbook, and i went out doors. and i was about feet when they realized that i had left the inn. now, there was a man on the outside, stationed there night and day. but there was a little arbor. and this was in the bedroom. we had two entrances--one to the living room and one to the bedroom. i opened the bedroom door. i had my coat and bag and i was going to go home. i was going to take a bus and go home because i didn't get to talk to my daughter-in-law--they had taken over. and i was or feet when two agents came and took me by the arm and i went back in. i didn't make a stink or anything about it. and that night i sat up all night, and the next morning i insisted upon going home. but the point that has to be made is was i under arrest or not--since these men came and took me by the arm and brought me back to the inn of the six flags. the chairman. were you all dressed to go home when they took hold of you that way? mrs. oswald. yes, sir, when they took hold of me this way. and i didn't say anything. i just went back in. so then the doctor--i do not know his name, you have his name--the doctor came in to see the children, they had diarrhea. and the man whispered something to the doctor. and we closed the door. the doctor asked me for lee's social security number. and i have testified that i had gone home the night before to get all my papers, after much persuasion. i started to look through the papers for lee's number. and i started to cry. he and i were in the room alone. i think this was purposely, because they said something to the doctor. i said i am very upset and told the doctor what happened. and i said "you know, my heart is breaking. i cannot understand how they would do something like that, and not tell me about it." so he talked with me, and he gave me two pills. when we opened the door he said to the agents "she is all right, she has a right to her feelings." so they must have thought that i was--something was wrong with me. they thought--because i took the attitude immediately--well, robert said it--i said "why didn't you let me know." "well, just because the way you are acting now." i said "how am i acting. i am acting in a normal way. i have lost my son. now you have made arrangements without consulting me to take my daughter and two grandchildren to live with strangers. this is a normal reaction. am i going to say yes, take my daughter-in-law and grandchildren, i don't need my part of them." this is a normal reaction. reverend saunders, louis saunders, who is a minister at the grave, accidentally came at the very last minute. he had not preached a sermon in years. he is head of the council of churches. he heard we could not get a minister so he was able to come at the very last minute. and rev. granville walker was sent to my home in fort worth, tex., the next day after i arrived home, to help, to console me about this case. so he said "mrs. oswald, i understand that marina has been offered a very fine home, and how do you feel about that. are you not glad that your daughter-in-law is going to be taken care of and the children have an education." i said "no, reverend saunders, i do not feel that way about it. those are material things. how do we know if these children will live to derive any benefit from this education. i think that we should stick together as a family. her mama, like she wanted. the girl said she has no mama. everything was arranged for the mama. she is talking about money and material things. i expressed my opinion at the six flags, that we start with $ --no contributions were coming in. and then if we cannot make it, then let the ones that are so concerned help us. and i remarked--i am working for a very wealthy woman. who knows, maybe she will give us $ , . let us stick together as a family. reverend saunders says "mrs. oswald, your philosophy of life is beautiful, and it is a biblical way. but you know you have to be practical." so the very next day, sir--and this is in "christianity today," to prove my point--mr. jim cox, who writes for "christianity today" and is a star telegram reporter called me and said "mrs. oswald, reverend saunders called me and wanted me to get a story from you, because he thought you had such a wonderful philosophy of life." i sat down, and mr. jimmy cox stayed home from church--i gave mr. jimmy cox a story that is in christianity today, that only goes to ministers, and it is because of reverend saunders. so i do have people to testify about this particular thing. and i did act in a normal way. that is a normal reaction, to not want to give up my family. mr. rankin. mrs. oswald. i will give you exhibits through , both inclusive, and ask you if that is--if those are photostatic copies of your correspondence--would you look at each one of them--with the state department that you have referred to in your testimony? mrs. oswald. yes, sir. do you want the numbers as i go along? mr. rankin. no. you just look at them. mrs. oswald. that is correct. representative ford. these are copies, mr. rankin, of her letters to the state department and the responses? mrs. oswald. that is correct. mr. rankin. yes, that is correct, is it not, mrs. oswald? mrs. oswald. yes, that is correct. mr. rankin. and these copies were made under your supervision were they not. mrs. oswald. that is correct. and i voluntarily gave you every copy i have. that is correct. that is correct. that is correct. some of this seems to be scratched out here. mr. doyle. on exhibit no. , there seems to be some x markings around. will you put that aside, and we can compare that with the original. mrs. oswald. this is correct. that is correct. that is correct. i don't remember writing to mrs. james. i remember calling her on the telephone. this is my handwriting. i guess i did. yes, that is my handwriting. that is correct. that is correct. that is correct. and this is correct, but should have a card with it. mr. doyle. you are referring to ? mrs. oswald. yes. and it should have with it a card, a postcard, from lee. mr. doyle. set aside with . mr. rankin. do you have a copy of ? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. will you please check to see that is a correct copy. mr. chairman, i think that we might gain time now if we would check these exhibits out with mrs. oswald, and be able to offer them at whatever time we reconvene. that is all we propose to do now. the chairman. all right. mrs. oswald. this is the card that should have gone with that. mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, were you able to find your copy of exhibit , and compare it and see whether that which is marked on is on your copy? mrs. oswald. no sir, we have not found that yet. "yours th" is scratched out. mr. rankin. so that is correct, but apparently there are some errors---- mrs. oswald. there are more errors, too. because it doesn't say "services department of state." mr. doyle. does not appear to be a photostat of the exhibit. mr. rankin. but it does have exactly the same material on it, doesn't it? mrs. oswald. it doesn't have this--"collect." i would not say it was an exact copy. mr. doyle. it appears to have substantially the information on it. it is not a photostat of it. mr. rankin. i might advise you, mrs. oswald, this is from the state department's file, from which the telegram was made up that was sent to you. mr. doyle. it is not a photostat, but it does have substantially the information that is set forth in the telegram itself. mr. rankin. now, you have examined all of the exhibits, through , both inclusive, and found them, except for what you and your counsel said about exhibit , and the card that was with , to be correct. mrs. oswald. that is correct. mr. rankin. we offer in evidence exhibits through , both inclusive. the chairman. they may be admitted. (commission exhibit nos. through , heretofore marked for identification, were received in evidence.) mrs. oswald. this is the card that goes with this letter, as an explanation. (the card referred to was marked exhibit no. for identification.) mr. rankin. exhibit is the card you have just referred to that goes with exhibit , is that right? mrs. oswald. yes, sir. mr. rankin. we offer in evidence exhibit , and ask that a copy be substituted. the chairman. that may be admitted. (the card referred to was received in evidence as commission exhibit no. .) mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, would you examine exhibits through , both inclusive? and tell us whether or not those appear to be photostatic copies of correspondence about the albert schweitzer college and application? mrs. oswald. yes, that is right. that is right. this is correct. that is right. that is right. that is right. that is right. that is right. that is right. that is right. that is right. that is right. those are all right, sir. mr. rankin. you have just finished comparing exhibits through both inclusive, and found them to be correct photostatic copies of your files concerning the albert schweitzer matter? mrs. oswald. that is right. mr. rankin. we offer in evidence, exhibits through both inclusive. the chairman. they may be admitted. (the photostatic copies referred to were received in evidence as commission exhibit nos. through , inclusive.) the chairman. have you introduced all the records you have now? mr. rankin. just a few more, mr. chairman. (the document referred to was marked for identification.) mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, i hand you exhibit and ask you if that is one of the letters that you referred to in your testimony? mrs. oswald. that is right. mr. rankin. and it is one that you received? mrs. oswald. it is one that i received in a letter from russia, from lee. and you have the letter, telling me to go to the international rescue committee, and to show the papers to the red cross in vernon. this is the letter inclosed in that letter. mr. rankin. we offer in evidence exhibit , and ask leave to substitute a copy. the chairman. it may be admitted. (the letter referred to was received in evidence as commission exhibit no. .) (documents marked and for identification.) mr. rankin. exhibits and are the telegram and the letter you received back from your transmission to the white house that you have testified about this morning, is that right? mrs. oswald. that is right. mr. rankin. and you say you would like to have the originals back? mrs. oswald. yes, sir. mr. rankin. we offer in evidence exhibits and and ask leave to substitute copies. the chairman. it may be admitted on that condition. (commission exhibits nos. and were admitted in evidence.) the chairman. are all the records identified now and admitted, mr. rankin? mr. rankin. mr. chairman, we have one further matter, and that is some correspondence that involves her son's communications with the embassy, which correspondence was examined in the presence of mr. mark lane when we were taking photostatic copies. and during that examination, mrs. oswald was able to identify the handwriting on part of them, and not able to identify it on another part. is that right, mrs. oswald? mrs. oswald. that is right; yes, sir. mr. rankin. and we think we should probably, to cover that matter, ask her briefly to point those out. the chairman. very well. let's get that done before we adjourn, and then we will adjourn for lunch. mr. rankin. mr. reporter, i will ask you to mark these exhibits, which are the ones that i understand mrs. oswald was able to identify the handwriting on. (documents were marked commission exhibits nos. through for identification.) mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, will you examine exhibits through , both inclusive, and tell us whether or not those are photostatic copies of communications of your son that you recognize the handwriting on of the originals? mrs. oswald. yes, sir. mr. doyle. if you do not on any one of them, announce the number. mrs. oswald. this is one i would believe that i have stated--if he wrote it, he wrote it very careful. it is not scribbled like he usually does. mr. doyle. that is . mr. rankin. can you tell whether or not that is his signature on the second page of exhibit ? mrs. oswald. it is just a little different. that could be forged. just a little difference. we write left handed, and we have a trend. mr. rankin. is that one that you said before that you thought you could recognize? mrs. oswald. i don't know, sir. i have no way of knowing. how would i know? mr. rankin. do you recognize the handwriting now? mrs. oswald. as i have stated before, when i am looking at it, it doesn't appear to be immediately as lee's handwriting. but it could be something that he has recopied over and over to get such a perfect lettering. it is not scribbled like we usually scribble. now, this was one also that i would say---- mr. rankin. that is exhibit . mrs. oswald. that is scribbled. mr. rankin. that is more scribbled, you say? mrs. oswald. it is not quite as his ordinary writing. it is a little more thoughtfully written. mr. rankin. you think it is his, though? mrs. oswald. i would say this is his. mr. rankin. yes. mrs. oswald. now, this is thoughtfully written, too, yet it is his. mr. rankin. exhibit . mrs. oswald. i am looking at this handwriting, because the rest of it is printed. i do not know too much about lee's printing. mr. rankin. can you tell about the handwriting? mrs. oswald. the signature looks like lee's signature. mr. rankin. yes. mrs. oswald. i will state again this looks like lee's handwriting, but very thoughtfully written. mr. rankin. that is exhibit . is that right? mrs. oswald. that is right. and this is lee's signature. mr. rankin. that is exhibit that you just referred to? mrs. oswald. yes, sir. now, i would say it is all lee's handwriting, but very thoughtfully written. mr. rankin. thank you. we offer in evidence exhibits through , both inclusive. the chairman. they may be admitted. (the documents referred to were received in evidence as commission exhibits nos. through , inclusive.) (a group of documents was then marked through for identification.) mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, i will hand you exhibits through , both inclusive, and ask you to examine those, and state whether you recognize the handwriting. mrs. oswald. that doesn't look too much like lee's handwriting. it could be a finer pen and more thoughtfully written. but i cannot identify this as lee's handwriting. mr. rankin. can you tell about the signature? mrs. oswald. the signature looks a little like lee's signature. mr. doyle. you refer to , when you are discussing this? mrs. oswald. yes, . now, this one i would say was not lee's handwriting. mr. rankin. that is ? mrs. oswald. . i have never known lee to sign lee harvey oswald. he always signed lee h. there again, that could be lee's handwriting with a fine pen. but very thoughtfully written. but i will say it is not lee's. i don't think it is. i cannot be positive. but i do not think it is lee's handwriting. mr. rankin. that is exhibit that you have been referring to? mrs. oswald. exhibit . here is another of the same caliber. it is too perfect. the writing is too perfect. mr. rankin. what about the signature? mrs. oswald. the signature looks like lee's signature. mr. doyle. that is . mrs. oswald. . yes, sir. this is a little different signature, i would say, than his normal signature. mr. rankin. ? mrs. oswald. , yes, sir. mr. rankin. you think that exhibit is your son's handwriting or not? mrs. oswald. i would have to say with reservations again. it would have to be rewritten very thoroughly. it is not scribbled enough. mr. rankin. you think that those letters, through , are too carefully done for your son lee? mrs. oswald. yes, sir. and if he did do them, he would have to have four or five copies to do it so perfect. this is a little more scribbled. this signature looks more like lee's than the other did. mr. rankin. that is ? mrs. oswald. yes, sir. . this looks like lee's handwriting--a lot of misspelling, and his signature. . now his russian handwriting i know only from return addresses. however, i do have two brown papers with russian writing on, from gifts that were sent to me. but i don't know if lee addressed them or not. and this is lee's handwriting with a very fine pen. isn't this handwriting backwards for a left hand? it seems when i looked at "my," it should be going this way--because i write like lee, left handed. mr. rankin. when you refer to this--or asked whether it was backwards, you were referring to exhibit , were you? mrs. oswald. yes. this "m" should be going this way--which it is really. but it is kind of hard to testify to. i would say this is lee's handwriting with a very fine pen, with reservations. mr. rankin. exhibit . we offer in evidence exhibits through , both inclusive. the chairman. they may be admitted. (the documents referred to were received in evidence as commission exhibits nos. through , inclusive.) the chairman. mrs. oswald, are you now ready--we are not going to ask you to do it right now, but we are going to recess at o'clock. but are we now at the point where we can hear whatever you want to tell us about your life? mrs. oswald. i am sorry, but i would like to have lunch. the chairman. i said that we were going to have lunch. but when we return--you have things up to that point of your story? mrs. oswald. yes, sir. the chairman. very well. you have another question you want to ask before we recess for lunch? mr. rankin. i should like to offer for the limited purpose, mr. chairman, of the fact that we presented this picture to mrs. oswald and she said it was not the picture that was presented to her--for that limited purpose i should like to offer exhibit . the chairman. it may be so admitted. (the picture referred to was received in evidence as commission exhibit no. .) mr. doyle. mr. chief justice, during the noon hour may i have the custody of this transcript of a tape recording of an interview with mrs. oswald, the pages which was tendered to us by mr. rankin this morning--and i will return it. mr. rankin. that is for them to have. the chairman. that is to become your own. mr. doyle. to become the property of mrs. oswald. the chairman. the property of mrs. oswald, yes. that is what we gave it to you for. she requested that. mr. doyle. thank you very much. the chairman. very well, we will recess now until o'clock. (whereupon, at : p.m., the president's commission recessed.) afternoon session testimony of mrs. marguerite oswald resumed the president's commission reconvened at : p.m. the chairman. all right, mr. rankin, will you proceed with the hearing? mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, you said that you would like to turn now to telling us about your life. we would appreciate that if you would do that. mrs. oswald. yes. the chairman. mrs. oswald, if you would prefer not to tell the story of your life, that is perfectly all right. mrs. oswald. i want to tell the story but there is something else that upsets me. the chairman. it is perfectly all right if you don't wish to. you may take your time now and go right ahead. mrs. oswald. i am sorry, you will have to excuse me about the story of my life, and mr. doyle knows why, but there is one part of the story of my life that will have a great connection with this, i believe. i married mr. edwin ekdahl who was an electrical engineer and a $ , a year man with an expense account. mr. ekdahl had a woman before he married me. of course, i didn't know about it, sir. i made him wait a year before i married him, but the way i found this out, i received a telephone call, a telegram rather, he traveled--lots of times lee and i traveled with him--stating he wouldn't return home when he was supposed to and for me not to meet him. so, i called his office, i was familiar with, knew his secretary, and i was going to tell her that mr. ekdahl would be delayed or days. but immediately she said, "mrs. ekdahl, mr. ekdahl is not in, he has gone out to lunch." so, i said, the general conversation went "when will he be back" and so on, and so that evening i took the car and i went to the texas electric co., works for the texaco, the main office in new york, but he was working in fort worth at the time, went to the building and saw him leave the building and i followed him and to an apartment house, saw him go into this apartment house. then i went back home, and my oldest son, john edward pic, who is in the service, had a friend at the house who was about years older. i told them about what happened. so it was night by this time. the kids went with me. i called mr. john mcclain, who is an attorney, and we live next door to mr. mcclain, and told him that i had seen mr. ekdahl go into a home when he was supposed to be out of town and what should i do. he said, "mrs. oswald, just ring the phone. do you know the woman?" and i said, "yes." "just ring the phone and let him know that you know he is there, that you saw him." after i thought about it i thought that is not a good idea because he could leave and say he was just there on business and i wanted to catch him there. so the kids and i planned that we would say she had a telegram, so we went up the stairs, i believe it was the second or the third floor, and the young man knocked on the door and said, "telegram for mrs. clary"--was her name. she said, "please push it under the door" and i told him no; he said, "no, you have to sign for it." so with that she opened the door to sign for it and with that i, my son, and with the other young man walked into the room and mrs. clary had on a negligee, and my husband had his sleeves rolled up and his tie off sitting on a sofa, and he said, "marguerite, marguerite, you have everything wrong, you have everything wrong." he says, "listen to me." i said, "i don't want to hear one thing. i have seen everything i want to see, this is it." my two boys, in military school, the two older boys, i am paying for the two older boys because i have sold a piece of property. i wanted to take care as long as i had money of my own children and when i married mr. ekdahl if he would support me and lee i would be able to take care of john edward, and robert in military school, we couldn't have them with us because mr. ekdahl traveled. this man never let me share with his insurance policies, beneficiary, in other words, i was another woman to him. i received $ a month and that was it. that was all the money i had from mr. ekdahl, and when we traveled, for instance, we were in santa fe, n. mex., and he was with all the businessmen, we would have to wait until mr. ekdahl got through, the baby and i, in order to eat, whether it was or o'clock in the evening because here i was, registered under mrs. ekdahl and i had a checking account, but under the name of oswald, which was the money i was using for the children so it was kind of inconvenient for me to write a check under the name of oswald. i am trying to point out the kind of man he was. i had a nice living in this sense. we lived in the finest hotels and we had the finest food because all of this was charged to his expense account but he gave me nothing but this $ . that was a standard thing and he expected me to account for every cent of the hundred dollars that i spent, which i refused to do. so, we argued naturally, because this is not a marriage. any man who marries a woman naturally shares, she shares in his bank account and in his insurance and so on and so forth. i wanted to divorce mr. ekdahl naturally but my two boys as i have stated before were in the military school, and i wanted to wait until the end of the season, the school season. so, lee and i went to covington, la., and i picked the boys up at military school because this was summer time--rather i wasn't back to him. i left him and went back to him. but this particular time i picked the boys up at military school and we spent the summer in covington, la., and by the way, i forgot to say that lee had a beautiful voice and sang beautifully at age in covington, la., he sang a solo in the church, silent night, and that can be verified. this is a very small town and the only lutheran church there. so, mr. ekdahl came to covington, la., and i went back again to mr. ekdahl. but this time i went back to him i hadn't found out about the woman. i got excited. then i found out about the woman, he rented a place on th avenue, a home. and after i was there about a day i was in the yard hanging out some things and it was in the apartment house downstairs and a woman came along and i said, "how are you? i am mrs. ekdahl." she looked astonished, and after i had made friends with her she informed me mr. ekdahl had a woman in this particular house while i was in covington and she thought she was his wife but now i am the wife come. then i found out about the woman and we went to her apartment and caught her there. this is the end of the season by this time. in the meantime mr. ekdahl filed suit for divorce from me. i thought i was sitting pretty. he didn't have anything on me. i had him for adultery with witnesses and everything and i didn't have an idea that he could sue me for a divorce, but mr. ekdahl did sue me for a divorce, and mr. ekdahl got the divorce. it was a jury case, and mr. john mcclain, was my attorney, the man i told you that i called to find out what to do. now, mr. fred korth represented mr. ekdahl and when i walked into the courtroom, gentlemen, there were witnesses there that i had never seen before. a mr. george levine, who is a very big businessman and who mr. ekdahl was representing in fort worth for the electrical part of his plant. i knew him this way. one time we went to the circus with his wife, my husband, myself and lee, before going to the circus we had dinner. now, understand we are having dinner in a public place. from the dinner we go to the circus, we are in a public place and i want you to know that it is the only time i had seen mr. george levine, when mr. george levine rushed from work in his khaki pants and got on the witness stand swore how i nagged mr. ekdahl and how i threw bottles at him and so on and so forth. there were other witnesses that i had never seen, sir, who swore how i nagged mr. ekdahl, and mr. ekdahl got his divorce from me. now, days after the assassination, after lee's death, while i am at six flags it comes over the radio that mr. korth knew the family, this happened in , sir, then mr. korth knew the family, and that he had represented mr. ekdahl in divorce proceedings and, of course, talked to the reporters where they got the information that i hit him with a bottle and so on and so forth. now, that is my story there. i am not even guilty of that divorce, as you see. this can be proved by my son john edward pic because he was a witness, sir. i do not think i am going--i am not going to speculate but give my thoughts to anyone who would immediately make a statement that he had represented the mother of the accused assassin as an attorney years ago, and that i nagged mr. ekdahl and so on and so forth. that was publicly announced about days after my son was shot, sir. now, the name then, of course, he probably knew the name oswald, but the name then was ekdahl that i would say would stick in his mind more. i will try to get to the very beginning of my life, chief justice. the chairman. any time. just take your time. mrs. oswald. my mother died when i was quite young and my father raised us with housekeepers. my aunt lived in the neighborhood and i had a lot of cousins and a lot of aunts. my father was french, his name was claverie, and my mother was german, the name is stucke. all of my father's folks spoke french and my father spoke french to his sisters. i was a child of one parent, and yet i have had a normal life, a very hard normal life that i had been able to combat all by myself, sir, without much help from anyone. i am saying that in reference to lee being alone; there have been so many psychiatrists saying he was by himself and he had a father image and that is why he did the shooting. there are many, many children with one parent who are perfectly normal children and i happen to be one myself. i had a very happy childhood. i sang. i sang from the kindergarten at grammar school, and all through grammar school i was the lead singer. i was one of the most popular young ladies in the school. i also play piano by ear. i don't know a note. i used to play the marching school song for the school children. at my grammar school graduation i had the honor of wearing a pink dress instead of a white dress and sang the song "little pink roses." so i had a very happy childhood and a very full childhood. i played the piano. we had house parties in those days and a lot of gatherings and it was everything marguerite--and i also played a ukulele, so i have a very full happy childhood. at the age of , i am ahead of my story--i have had year high school education. i know that on my applications i had that i had completed high school but that is almost necessary to get a job. but i had year of high school education is all that i had, sir. i then went to work at age , not quite , for one of the biggest corporation lawyers in new orleans, la. the name then was dufour, rosen, wolff, and kammer. mr. dufour died while i was there and mr. kammer, i believe, is still living but they were corporation attorneys for that firm plus or other attorneys that handled divorce cases and similar cases and i was receptionist in the outer office. so, everybody who came into the office had to state their business to me, because the attorneys were very busy, and if it was a particular case i had to know who to refer the party to this particular man. so, naturally, i got a very large education, let's say, by doing this, and the mayor and everybody in the town, these are the largest attorneys, corporation attorneys in new orleans, sir, and they were attorneys representing the new orleans public service and big things of that sort, and the mayor and all used to call me the boss. when the mayor came in he had an appointment but i still had to ring the phone to see if the men were ready to see him. so they called me the boss. i was also a maid in one of the carnival balls. i am a very poor young lady but a very, let's say, popular young lady. my early childhood. we lived on the phillips street in new orleans which was a very poor neighborhood. my father was one of the very first streetcar conductors and stayed on the very same line all these years until he retired and they gave him a citation because he was on the same line all those years from retirement, and we lived in a mixed neighborhood of negroes and white, and my childhood i played with negroes, sir, right next door to me was a lovely family that i grew up with this negro family. i married mr. edward john pic, jr., while working at the law firm. i was married to mr. pic two and a half years when i became with child, and he did not want any children. his family and my family tried to talk to him, and, well, his family almost beat him up to say, but nobody could do anything with him. so, at months i left mr. pic. mr. pic did not divorce me, and you have the records there of me divorcing mr. pic, contrary to all other stories, sir. this child, john edward pic then i bore alone, without a husband. i was months pregnant. i had more months to go, and i had this child without a husband. so, i have had two children without a husband present, lee and the first child. mr. oswald was an insurance agent, and he used to collect insurance at my sister's house, and the day that i left mr. pic he helped move my furniture, the things that i was going to take. i didn't see mr. ekdahl for some time and---- the chairman. ekdahl or oswald. mrs. oswald. mr. oswald, sir, i am sorry. john edward and i were coming from the park one day, and mr. ekdahl picked--mr. oswald picked me up, and he was separated from his wife, however, not divorced but had been separated for a number of years, and i started dating mr. ekdahl and we decided to marry and he divorced his wife. mr. rankin. you said ekdahl again. mrs. oswald. oswald, i am sorry, and then he got the divorce proceeding. he was separated for a long time but never had been divorced from his wife but when we knew he was going to marry, and i also then got the divorce from mr. pic. i was not divorced there from mr. pic, either. we were legally separated but i was not divorced from him. so, mr. oswald and i married and of that marriage robert was born months later, and as you know consequently lee, months after his father had died. now, mr. oswald was a very good man. there was the only happy part of my life. when he died hardly anybody knew that john edward pic was not his son. he wanted to adopt john edward, but because his father was supporting him which i think was only $ a month, i explained to lee that i thought we should save this money for the boys' education and let his own father support him and naturally we would educate and do all we could do but that was no more than right. so that is why he did not adopt john edward. now, that is the story of my three marriages. i have been married approximately years in the three times that i have been married, sir, and i would say, i am probably guilty of a lot of things but the initial guilt has never been mine in any of these marriages, the first marriage i had explained, the second marriage was death, and the third marriage was mr. ekdahl. i think then you know the rest of the story, how i lived with my children and tried to support my children. i have often held two jobs trying to support my children. i have a whole file that the commission has copies of jobs that i have worked, and i have also worked for these places twice, and have gone back. i have wonderful recommendations. i think i have been fired about five times in my life, and i have had much, much employment, and the reason for that is finances, in other words, i have always had a very low salary, and i am a very aggressive sales person, as these papers say, and i always produce for my people and i was in demand actually. they would come to me and offer me , dollars more, believe me, gentlemen. i would quit the job where i was and quit the new job because dollars paid my light and heat bill and gave my children some clothes and that is mostly the reason for all of this employment, and also i used to quit my job as much as possible in the summer time when the children were little in order to be home with them. now, i skipped a part in the beginning about the children being placed in the lutheran home. i am lutheran and i was a church member, a church worker, i should say. i helped, i sewed, natural gifted, i never did take a lesson, i never did use a pattern, my sister can verify this. i used to come home from the attorneys with material, cut out the material, sew it, press it and go out on a date. i just had the knack of doing things that way, sir, and she can verify this because my niece, i taught her to sew and my sister said, "you are so slow, aunt marguerite used to sew on the material and go out on a date," and my niece would say, "is it true, my mother said you would sew on material and go out on a date," and i said, "i wish i had a nickel for every time i did." so those are gifted things i can't explain. lee had certain gifted ways about him also. in the early part of my life that i had skipped when the war broke out and my finances were gone, i talked with the church. it was on alva street in new orleans, not too far where my home was and they investigated the money i had, and i had a little money left at this time and they let me place the two older boys in the lutheran home which is a home only for the lutheran church. this is not an institution. they have their own private school on the ground, and it is primarily based for children of one parent. however, they do take orphans. it was really not designed to be an orphan home. it was for children of one parent and you pay according to your circumstances, and they investigated my salary and after i went to work, i paid according to my circumstances for my two boys. i took my two boys home with me every weekend, sir, and brought them back in time for sunday so they can go to church with the children in the home. they got a wonderful education because the school on the school grounds had very few children in them. there would be maybe two or three children to a particular grade so they had wonderful school. lee was too young. they would not take lee into the home until he was years old. so, i have hired maids and i have quit many a job for this. you have a background on my job, this accounts for it. many a position and i have always had title and no money, assistant manager or manager in charge of a department, and i have had to quit that, because the maid wouldn't show up, and you couldn't get a maid for love or money. war had broken out and the negroes in new orleans were going into factories and so on and so forth so there is many a job i had to leave in order to stay home and mind lee until i could get help. then my sister helped with lee. there is one particular instance, i let a couple have my home, plus $ a month in order to care for lee while i worked, and this couple after about month's time had neglected lee and so i had to put them out of the house and there again i had to quit a job, and take care of lee until i could make arrangements and my sister could help me with it. so when lee was years old i was having it very difficult with lee, because of the different people to take care of lee, and the different jobs that i had to give up. however, i was never in want of work. it was during the war and i was always able to get work, but i realized if i continued to quit jobs because i couldn't hold the jobs that some day i wouldn't have enough jobs in new orleans for me to hold one. so, then at age lee was placed in the home. i waited patiently for age because i wanted naturally for the brothers to be together. it was hard on lee also because lee was at a different place and his brothers were at a different place. so at age i placed lee in a lutheran home. of course, you have to be under strict investigation financially and otherwise to do this because this is a church placement, sir. then, i became manager of princess hosiery shop on canal street. i opened that shop and i was left by myself and in days' time i hired four girls. there was the first shop this man has had. he now has, i think, stores and he always remembers me as on the road of starting him to success, because this young man didn't have much money at the time. and this is where i met mr. ekdahl and there is why i didn't want to marry right away because the children were being taken care of and i was manager of the hosiery shop. so, now, i was sitting pretty in our american slang and i did not want to marry. but he persisted. he decided he wanted to marry me and i decided to marry him. i went to the lutheran home and talked to the, well, you don't call him a manager, the head of the home, and i was going to marry mr. ekdahl, and i asked if i should have, if i could have lee, that i didn't want the children, john edward, and robert to miss their schooling and i told them that i would wait until the children got out of school to marry mr. ekdahl but mr. ekdahl traveled, and, yet, he had a stroke and mr. ekdahl had offered, if i would come to dallas, he was being transferred to dallas, that he would pay my room, my living quarters and everything if i would cook and take care of him and i told the home, the lutheran home about this arrangement, so there was nothing going to be immoral about it, sir, or i wouldn't have explained to the lutheran home and they let me have lee under those circumstances because they knew that i was a good woman and doing the best i could. so, i got lee, and when we went to dallas, i then realized i did not want to marry mr. ekdahl, but i had already given up my position as manager of the hosiery shop, and had taken lee out of school so with the money, i told you i had some money, and i had sold a piece of property, i bought another piece of property for a very small down payment on victor street in dallas, tex., and mr. ekdahl traveled. now, mr. ekdahl used to come on weekends and stay at my home. of course, in his bedroom with my children, just maybe not even every weekend because he traveled, and then i decided i would marry mr. ekdahl. i mean i decided not to, i mean, he was a persistent one. then i married mr. ekdahl and the home was sold and i traveled with mr. ekdahl and the children were put into military school with the money i sold the home with. i believe i have covered everything. i am not quite sure. are there any questions, mr. rankin, that i haven't gotten? mr. rankin. i think that is very helpful. i would like to ask you about those pictures that you offered and then decided you didn't want to give us. if you would get those out, i would like to identify them so that there cannot be any misunderstanding about just what they are about. could you do that? mrs. oswald. by the way, one of the reporters when i came downstairs said "what is all the commotion about those pictures, you have, mrs. oswald?" where do those leaks come from? that is the example. they wanted to know about the pictures. mr. chief justice, this is lee at months. the chairman. he was a good looking baby. mrs. oswald. this is lee there at years. would--if you would like a copy of the marina pictures, sir, i would be more than happy to do that. i think they are in an envelope. this is important, mr. rankin. this has something to do with time magazine is what i think he did. this is where he got that from. these were copied for this session. these are from my other boys to mother, and john edward and which i wanted to show we were a family but as soon as the boys married--here is another thing, which is true to human nature. i am a widow woman with no money and i happened not to have the type daughter-in-laws who wanted a widow woman in case they have to support me. my children make very low salaries and so i am not alone, we have thousands and thousands of women like me. it is hard to say the children don't want you. but there are many, many mothers whose sons have married because it is different with a girl. now a girl will take care of the mother but the boy's mother is usually nothing and i am not going to be helped or supported. i am going to take care of myself because that is the attitude and that was the attitude when i was sick. lee harvey oswald was the only one who has helped his mother at any time but i wanted to show mothers today cared and everything until they married. that was the type family we were, sir. and this was the picture, mr. rankin, of the three children which is a happy life and he wanted to be in new orleans. mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, i am going to call your attention to exhibit which you just referred to and said maybe that is what you meant. mrs. oswald. yes, because i gave him this when he entered the home. mr. rankin. this exhibit refers to the letter you received from me as general counsel for the commission, and then a letter to the president, and your appeal to the president, is that right? mrs. oswald. that is correct. mr. rankin. and this is a copy you released for the press conference in dallas. that is exhibit . i offer exhibit . the chairman. it may be admitted. mr. rankin. if you will permit me, i will ask the court reporter to identify these pictures and i don't intend to offer them but then i will ask you each one by number so we can make it clear, and then return them to you, so you can tell us what they are about, is that all right with you? mrs. oswald. yes, that is just fine, thank you. mr. rankin. now, mrs. oswald, i will hand you exhibits through , both inclusive, and ask you to take them starting with exhibit and referring to the exhibit in each case, tell the commission what the picture is about. mrs. oswald. is of the three children, john edward, robert, and lee and the three are smiling. in fact this picture was in a magazine because of the three good poses. it is hard to get three pictures alike. mr. rankin. about how old are the children in that picture? mrs. oswald. i know lee was approximately going on years old. there is years difference in robert so robert would be , that is correct and john edward would be . that is when they went to military school. this is a picture of lee at age months. mr. rankin. you are talking about exhibit ? mrs. oswald. , yes, sir. this is a picture of lee at the bronx zoo, exhibit at age . mr. rankin. that is the bronx zoo in new york? mrs. oswald. yes, sir. mr. rankin. that is the bronx zoo in new york that you told us about. mrs. oswald. yes, sir. is a picture of lee in atsugi, japan in showing his strength. mr. rankin. that shows him in marine uniform also, does it? mrs. oswald. in his marine uniform showing his muscles to his mother. and this is a picture, exhibit taken in corregidor in the wilderness. mr. rankin. he is still in the marines there? mrs. oswald. oh, yes, he is in fatigues, there. this is a picture taken august , taken in california coming home on leave from japan. mr. rankin. he is still in the marines? mrs. oswald. yes, he is still in the marines august . this is a picture of lee taken in minsk, russia june st, , minsk, ussr, exhibit . there is a picture of marguerite oswald, the mother taken in new orleans. mr. rankin. what is the number? mrs. oswald. . mr. rankin. thank you. that is your own picture? mrs. oswald. yes, sir. this is a mother's day card sent to me from santa ana, california on may , from lee. mr. rankin. that is exhibit ? mrs. oswald. and this is exhibit which is a christmas card i had sent lee on his first christmas away from home--he joined in october--that lee had kept all these years in his sea bag, this was found in his sea bag he left with me. this is a book of christmas carols exhibit that was also found in lee's sea bag. mr. rankin. now, exhibits to both inclusive, are those all of the pictures that you were offering the commission this morning? mrs. oswald. i have many more pictures, i would be happy to show you but these are the pictures that your mr. jenner said he would like to have for the commission. mr. rankin. and that you were referring to when you offered them to the commission? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. thank you very much and we would like to return them to you at this time. the chairman. we will return them to you, mrs. oswald. mr. rankin. that is all i have, mr. chairman. the chairman. well i think that will be all then. thank you mrs. oswald and if you become too tired with your testimony, we know it has been a long and arduous task for you, but we appreciate your presence. now, mr. doyle. mr. doyle. sorry for the interruption, sir. mrs. oswald, do you care to make any comment to the commission about the tape recording, the transcript of the tape recording of mrs. marguerite oswald furnished to you by the commission this morning? do you care to make any comment about that? mrs. oswald. should i go all the way and make the comment? mr. doyle. you make any comment you desire on that paper. i ask you whether or not you have any comment to make concerning that paper that you sent, that you were given? mrs. oswald. i am concerned about one thing, mr. doyle, if i may just step over there and ask you a question. the chairman. you may step out in the hall and talk to mr. doyle. mrs. oswald. chief justice warren and mr. rankin, i have read this and it has upset me very, very much, that is what i was upset about. i have stated before in my testimony that at the end of the six flags i insisted upon going home and getting my important papers and i was ignored. i wanted to testify. they put robert on tape many a time and marina continuously and i didn't have an interview. i have stated this previously, if you remember, and then finally a mr. howard put me on tape for about or minutes only, sir, and i had started with the defection because i was under the impression that we missed a bet when we didn't find out how lee got to russia and as far as i know, no reporter has been able to find out what ship he left on, and then robert left the bedroom because he had the news that we could not get a minister, if you recall, and cried, and i said to mr. howard "now all that i have left me because i see my son crying bitterly." i have stated these facts before, a very short interview. this interview is supposed to have been by mr. howard, sir. the same mr. mike howard that i have previously identified before on many occasions, and i swear before this committee that now my life is more in danger which i have said before, because i did not give this testimony. this is the testimony that has been gathered by known facts because i have been a public figure. i have had three press conferences, i have written for magazines and newspapers. i have not kept quiet, sir, as you know, so these things have been accumulated. i was not questioned and answered, sir. i have stated it before and i state it now. this is the same man who was sent to me in fort worth, tex. that i have complained that i did not get protection, if you will recall. this is the very same man, sir. this is the same man that i have told you that gave my daughter-in-law a red-carpet treatment if you will recall along with the other one i identified in the picture. this is the man i have been sitting here complaining about. here is my evidence. i am ready to have a heart attack. i was sick, sir, when i read it because i realize now how my life is in danger and i want to say this: many people know about this, many people, sir, mr. jack langdon of the morning times, mr. blair justice of the star telegram and i immediately called mr. blair justice of the star telegram when this man knocked on my door last week to protect me, and told blair justice that this was the man, there was an article written in the star telegram, not printed but about pointed every lie at the six flags i made it plain that the other one if he had a gun would have shot me in my prior testimony, mr. rankin you remember that, so i told mr. justice, i said "justice i am scared to death. this is the same man that i am suspicious of that they have now sent to guard me," and as you know, sir, i was not protected. i was not protected while in fort worth. i have testified to that, if you will recall. this is the man, and i did not give this testimony, sir. i have repeatedly stated to newspapermen and to everybody publicly that i have never been questioned. the only thing i could figure why i was never questioned is because lee was an agent, and i have stated that fact. why they left me alone, because i have never been questioned. mr. tom whalen who is an announcer for one of the television stations in fort worth he kept calling lee the assassin of president kennedy, and i called mr. whalen and i said to mr. whalen "you don't know that lee assassinated president kennedy. i object to that." i said "i can't tell you what to do, sir, but i would like you to say the accused assassin because this is what he is" and he apologized and we talked a little while and i said no sir, i told him i was not--i had never been interviewed. he says "i can't believe that, mrs. oswald." i said "believe it or not i have never been interviewed," which i made a statement upon arriving in washington that i have never had a complete tape recording or question and answer. i went to the courthouse, and gave my information to the fbi men as i stated previously, which took a few minutes. i never did see those men after that. they weren't investigated and at the six flags i repeatedly wanted to go home and get my papers and give the documents that i have here, as i stated, and i was not questioned, sir at six flags. i was questioned for about or minutes and i stopped this way. all of my thoughts have gone from me because i see my son crying. i have previously stated that. mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, in light of your saying that you didn't give this interview evidenced by this document, a copy of which we gave to you which purports to have been recorded on november , , by mr. howard, i would like to have that identified by the reporter and then give you another copy that you can compare, and i would like to ask you just a few questions about it. mrs. oswald. fine. mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, i hand you back the -page reported interview that i just referred to that has just been marked exhibit and ask you if that is the document that you were referring to in your testimony? mrs. oswald. yes, sir; this is the document i am referring to. mr. rankin. that you just said you did not give that interview? mrs. oswald. that is correct. and i will finish something, too, mr. mark r. lane called and i told mr. mark lane about the secret service man. he knows about this, many know about this, i have witnesses by this. mr. rankin. what do you mean by this? mrs. oswald. about this man, mr. howard. mr. rankin. i see. but not that you said that you did not give this interview. mrs. oswald. pardon? mr. rankin. when you say this, you didn't mean that they know that you did not give this interview? mrs. oswald. no. they knew that i didn't testify, i am sorry. but mr. mark lane called me the morning that i was to--the day i was supposed to leave fort worth to come to washington, sir, and i said to mr. mark lane, "i am not going in the car with mr. mike howard." and there was another mr. howard by the way who came there that day. i don't know whether he was his brother or not, we will have to find out, sir, the day i was going to leave for washington, and i said, "lane, i am scared to death." he says "don't worry. i will call mr. walden, who is the star telegram reporter and ask him to accompany you." and mr. mark lane called mr. walden of the star telegram and asked him to accompany me and mr. walden did accompany me with these two secret service men to the airport and when mr. walden entered my home i told him i am so glad you are here because i didn't want to go with this agent by myself. and this is the same agent now--chief justice are you interested enough for me to tell you a little more? the chairman. about this? mrs. oswald. yes. the chairman. tell what you wish about it. mrs. oswald. we are going to go back now a little bit and then you will see the pattern. at the end of the six flags; i will make it as short as possible and when everything was mama and we were going to live together and i told you they took her from me and i didn't see her, then marina's testimony started to change, sir. marina's testimony was not this testimony the first days. i have testified, and she has testified differently than me. i don't know of all of her testimony but the first days, this was not her husband's rifle, at the police station and she admitted but it wasn't her husband's rifle. she was going to live with her mama and everything was fine and then when i told you the way they did, then marina turned against her mama, you no have work, and from that time marina has been changed to a different personality, let's admit it, sir, marina has been changing to a different personality. her statements, her way of life, she smokes, as i said today. i am not saying it now, she stopped nursing her baby. this is a russian girl, i know she lived with me month, how untouched of worldly things she was, and i mentioned before there was a lot of rumors that i didn't feel like i wanted to go into but that i couldn't overlook. sir, if you would know the rumors, then you would put two and two together what i have been trying to say. this man, along with the other one that i have identified, are definitely in this pattern, and marina oswald, yes, marina oswald has changed completely. she made a statement on television now she is happy that she has ever been and people have written, her husband is only gone months. mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, this exhibit , you understand, is a transcription, that is the writing out of what was on the tape, you understand that? mrs. oswald. but i was never taped, sir. mr. rankin. we have asked, mr. chairman, that the tape be sent over so that it can be heard, if you wish. the chairman. now, you mean. mr. rankin. yes. it is on its way over. the chairman. oh, yes. mrs. oswald. i have stated previously, if i was taped it was during a conversation going on that they taped me. i have never sat down and been taped, sir. i don't think i am out of my mind, i wonder why. the chairman. may i see this. mrs. oswald. mr. max phillips, who is a secret service agent brought a dictaphone into my home, on thomas place, when i left six flags, and i saw it connected and mr. jim cox of the star telegram can prove that i disconnected it. when i was telling mr. jim cox my story about putting my children into a lutheran home and i thought it was a personal story that had nothing to do with this particular case i disconnected the tape recorder. mr. max phillips brought a tape recorder into my home and as you know i do a lot of talking. and i never did sit down. mr. rankin. this was a tape recording at the six flags. mrs. oswald. no, sir. mr. rankin. it purports to be. you understand that? mrs. oswald. yes, i understand that thoroughly. i would like to produce some other evidence that i have also to this commission. i have, as mr. doyle knows, a tape recorder with a few recordings on it, and there are several, two, i believe. mr. sorrels' recordings on that. i found it necessary, because my mail was being opened, my mail, i have reported to the postal inspections, i have stated in the beginning that all of my rights were taken away from me, and, sir, believe me they were, and when i was a lone woman i would say something i was supposed to be out of my mind and didn't know what i was talking about i started to decide i needed some evidence too and mr. sorrels kept pushing me off about seeing my daughter-in-law, i have him on tape, and i have mr. thorne on tape about my mail being opened. i have some other evidence. mr. rankin. have you ever transcribed that? mrs. oswald. no sir. mr. rankin. would you transcribe that and send us copies of it? mrs. oswald. yes, sir. that is a very long document. i was never questioned and answered. the chairman. it would hardly seem possible, mrs. oswald, that unless this is a complete fabrication that anyone could have given these answers but you, it is--so many of these questions and answers are exactly what you have told us. mrs. oswald. exactly what i have told you, sir, i have been in the news continuously, i have made the same statements over and over in magazines and newspapers and press conferences, yes, sir, that is not news to anybody. and as a matter of fact, i was taped, oh, this might be a point, i was taped at my first press conference which was at the fort worth press club which i talked approximately hours, and there was a tape recorder there. i talked over hours at that press conference. mr. rankin. this is question and answer? for instance, and i am looking at page , there are different questions and answers. mrs. oswald. that is a condensed version of my whole testimony, as i say, because i have been in the public eye and i have all of these things public. these things have been made public. mr. rankin. this purports to be following the tape recording as to your son robert, you remember his giving a tape recording interview? mrs. oswald. yes, robert gave a tape recording, i told you, and so did marina and i was not asked to be tape recorded. i myself asked to give testimony and i did give about - or -minutes testimony that i say again that i ended up with now all my thoughts are gone, i see my son crying, a very short, and if i remember correctly, i started with the defection. i do know because i said "robert doesn't know anything about my trip to washington. he wasn't interested and maybe he should listen to my testimony." and i got not far from it when robert cried and that ended that testimony. the chairman. mrs. oswald, while we are waiting, you may relax. we will take a little recess, if you want to refresh yourself, you may step out. that is perfectly all right. mrs. oswald. one thing, of course i am not supposed to tell you what to do, i know and i don't mean to, chief justice, but since this man was reassigned to guard me in fort worth i would like to know if he was free or if he was taken off another assignment to come to fort worth to guard me for this trip? because it is the same man, understand? mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, i think in regard to that i had better state on the record we had nothing to do, that is the commission or myself, about the selection of any of the personnel. we just asked the secret service to handle it and so we don't at this time know what the answer is to your question. mrs. oswald. thank you. (short recess.) the chairman. all right, mr. rankin, you may continue. mr. rankin. mr. chairman, we have this transcript at this time that we are ready to play now and it starts out with robert oswald's testimony or answers and questions like the transcription, written transcription states at the head of it, and i think it might be helpful if we just start with that and we can move on if you wish to with the other. the chairman. all right. (playing of tape recording.) mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, this is about pages out of around between and of your son's transcription. do you recognize your son's voice? mrs. oswald. yes, i have to listen really, it is a recorder, i am sure, but i have to, you know, listen, that story is right. there are two discrepancies so far as dates. mr. rankin. but you do recognize it? it sounds like him? mrs. oswald. yes, it sounds like him. it is the recorder. mr. rankin. is it all right for us to pass down to yours at this time? mrs. oswald. yes, and i want the time on it. mr. rankin. yes. mrs. oswald. that would be how many pages? about the months he made an error, it is june and they were in my home with me by july . (transcription played.) mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, do you have any problem about that being your voice on the tape? mrs. oswald. no, sir, but i think probably the rest of it is my voice. i had a news conference at the fort worth press club at fort worth, tex., that i was on tape for hours. now, here is what--this is probably a little over minutes to hear "pardon me, you will have to excuse me." and there was a lot of break there. that is exactly minutes. i have testified that at the inn of six flags i talked for about minutes and then i stopped because my son was crying, and i still say i testified for minutes approximately at the inn of six flags. i had a press conference at the fort worth press club, that can be verified that i talked for over hours that i was on tape. i was sitting on a desk with many, many reporters because this was when it just happened, and we had a lot of reporters, and in the back of me was a man, and everything i said was on this tape, and it was over hours that i talked at this press club. mr. rankin. did you say the things that you say here? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. in answer to these questions? mrs. oswald. yes, and all through here is my story, yes, sir. mr. rankin. at the press club? mrs. oswald. yes, sir. i talked for hours. mr. rankin. and you didn't say it to this agent? mrs. oswald. i said, and i am going to continue to say this, that i had approximately minutes interview at the inn of six flags, and then the telephone rang and robert came out and started crying, and i said i see my son crying so now all my thoughts have left me and i was not interviewed any further at the inn of six flags, sir. mr. rankin. on this tape you heard a little child talking, didn't you? mrs. oswald. yes, that is right. mr. rankin. now, was there a little child like that at this---- mrs. oswald. yes, june was at the inn of the six flags and if i am as smart as they are and if they are as smart as i am, there could be a little child crying all during the rest of the testimony. mr. rankin. i see, but there wasn't a little child at the place where you gave your press conference? mrs. oswald. no, but i am not familiar with--but couldn't a tape be added and spliced and couldn't a child voice be put in? i am just saying, because i have said before and i am saying now i was taped for about minutes, just where this business came in was exactly minutes, "pardon me," now i spoke for over two and a half hours at the fort worth press club and was taped there. what they can do with that tape, i don't know. mr. rankin. who asked you the questions when you were answering them at the fort worth press club? mrs. oswald. now, it was not in this sequence, answer and questions. so, i am saying, i do not know how they can get my voice and do the tape and answering questions for the rest, but gentlemen, i am not out of my mind and i have said this over and over publicly, that i have never been interviewed, answer and question, but for about minutes at the inn of the six flags. mr. rankin. mr. chairman, then i would like to go down about or minutes more maybe and see what it sounds like and the background if we play for just a few minutes. the chairman. all right. mr. rankin. would you drop down for another minutes? skip about minutes, please. mrs. oswald. after you start may i say something else? mr. rankin. yes. mrs. oswald. all of this here i have said and also said in my home and i have testified that there was a tape recorder in my home brought in by mr. max phillips, mr. rankin. why can't--i don't know anything about tape but it can be spliced and edited and so forth, that much i know because when i have talked for reporters, they don't use everything i say. they splice. mr. rankin. but you recognize, mrs. oswald, it would be quite a job to splice in each one of those questions. mrs. oswald. well, the assassination of the president of the united states and a scapegoat for it would be quite a job, it would be worth while, yes, sir, i realize that. mr. rankin. let's try a little more. (transcription played.) mr. rankin. do you want to say anything more about this? mrs. oswald. yes, i do. i haven't gone through all of this. i have made the statement over and over that my conversation was stopped. it was approximately a -minute conversation and it was stopped with the remark "i see my son crying. all my thoughts have left me." is that remark in this any place? mr. rankin. i don't recall that it is. mrs. oswald. well, we will have to recall, because this, i have stated and was said and that is when i stopped the conversation at the inn of the six flags. robert came out crying because he couldn't get a minister and i said, "i see my son crying, now all my thoughts have left me," and the interview stopped at the inn of six flags which i have testified was approximately minutes. now, sir, there was a microphone in my home. this is not news to anybody. i have said this over and over and over. the ordinary layman by now knows my whole story, chief justice warren. there was mr. max phillips who had a microphone in my home. i testified on tape for over hours at--talked at the fort worth club, which would be, it is the same story over and over, i have told you all the same story that you already have here. the chairman. yes, but it wasn't the same man interrogating you at this place as it was at this hotel, was it? mrs. oswald. about now--i don't know if this is the same man on the whole tape because i haven't listened to it. no, no one interrogated me at the fort worth press club, sir. i talked, there was an open press. the chairman. but it is the same voice we are hearing now asking you questions as at the beginning of this tape, isn't it? mrs. oswald. that is correct. i have just stated, since this is a very big operation, that this could be edited and this man's voice put on there. this i know, because the radio stations called me and they edited what i do. isn't this possible, that this could be edited, and that this man asked the questions and then my voice be put in. it would be a big job but i am asking isn't that possible? i swear that i have never had answers and questions of this sort, gentlemen. the chairman. shall we turn over about minutes more and see if the same voices are in it there? (transcription played.) mrs. oswald. i am not sure but i think it was possible it was an editor that he put me on there. (transcription played.) the chairman. well, mrs. oswald, those are the same voices. mrs. oswald. that is mr. mike howard's voice, yes, sir, i recognize his voice, yes, sir. the chairman. and that is your voice? mrs. oswald. that is my voice. the chairman. yes. mrs. oswald. but i am not going to vary from my story. the chairman. yes, all right. mrs. oswald. that is an interview just minutes at the inn of six flags and that was the only time when going to the courthouse and asked for the fbi of lee getting the money to come home from the state department and congressman wright knew about it and they left and they didn't even come back and talk to me, sir, yes, sir. mr. rankin. play just the last part. mrs. oswald. the last minutes. mr. rankin. these last remarks that we listened to were on page . (transcription played.) the chairman. those are the same two voices, howard's voice and your voice. mrs. oswald. yes, i say those are the two same voices, mr. mike howard's voice, yes, sir. mr. rankin. that is on page of the transcript. mr. chairman, do you think there is any need for any more? the chairman. i don't see any need for going any further with it. mrs. oswald says she didn't have this interview, these questions were not asked of her and these answers given but she does identify the voices as being hers and all we have is her word, and this tape, and the transcription at the present time. so for the moment, i suppose we will just have to leave it where it is. i don't see any other answer to it. mrs. oswald. all right. mr. rankin. mrs. oswald, i have shown you during a recess what has been marked as exhibit , and you have examined the handwriting of that exhibit. mrs. oswald. yes. mr. rankin. and the various letters there. can you tell us whether or not those handwritings on those various letters are those of your son, lee harvey oswald? mrs. oswald. it looks like his handwriting, i would say so. i am not handwriting expert. it looks very much like his writing. mr. rankin. thank you. we offer in evidence exhibit . the chairman. it will be admitted. (the document was received in evidence as commission exhibit no. .) mr. rankin. we understand, mr. doyle, that you have examined the original documents of exhibits through , and compared them with the photostatic copies that have been marked. mr. doyle. i have. mr. rankin. and stipulate for the record that the photostats are correct, of the originals, is that agreeable? mr. doyle. i do. mr. rankin. thank you. mr. chairman, i have nothing further unless mrs. oswald has something or mr. doyle cares to interrogate mrs. oswald about anything. the chairman. mrs. oswald, do you have anything more you want to say? mrs. oswald. no, i don't have anything more. do you have any questions, mr. doyle? the chairman. mr. doyle, do you have anything to say? mr. doyle. i have no further questions, no. the chairman. well, thank you very much, mrs. oswald, for appearing voluntarily before the commission and giving your testimony, and mr. doyle, i want to express the appreciation of the commission for the help you have been to mrs. oswald and to the commission in representing her on this occasion. we know that it disrupted your week very badly. we know that you responded to this call for public service on a moment's notice, and we appreciate it all the more because of that. my own personal thanks to you in addition to those of the commission. mr. doyle. thank you, your honor. i assume that my designation was for the purpose of the hearing and with the conclusion that will have finished my job. the chairman. thank you. unless mrs. oswald should like to ask you some questions about the matter at the conclusion of the testimony, i think that will be all. mr. doyle. very well. the chairman. thank you both. mrs. oswald. you and i are through as attorney and client? mr. doyle. yes. mrs. oswald. this will not be pursued any further? mr. doyle. unless you have some questions, thank you. mrs. oswald. gentlemen, you are making a very big mistake. i thank you very much for inviting me here. the chairman. i don't understand you. mrs. oswald. i think you are making a very big mistake not pursuing this further because i have told important people about this particular incident and i say it is correct and i hope you will continue while i am gone not just to ignore what i have said. the chairman. mrs. oswald, you misjudge the commission when you say we will not pursue it further. mrs. oswald. fine, i don't know, i am asking. the chairman. you may be sure we will pursue it further. mrs. oswald. thank you, and i have more people that i could call. i have told mr. doyle the people. would you like me to name the people on the record for you? mr. lane, i called mr. lane---- the chairman. to what purpose are you naming these people? mrs. oswald. to the purpose that mr. mike howard who came to fort worth last week to protect me, i called these people and told them how concerned i was that he was the one. the chairman. i think you have told us what you told them, so that we have it here in the record now. we are adjourned. (whereupon, at : p.m., the president's commission recessed.) _thursday, february , _ testimony of robert edward lee oswald the president's commission met at : a.m., on february , , at maryland avenue ne., washington, d.c. present were chief justice earl warren, chairman; senator john cooper, representative hale boggs, representative gerald r. ford, and allen w. dulles, members. also present were j. lee rankin, general counsel; albert e. jenner, jr., assistant counsel; wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel; william mckenzie, attorney for robert edward lee oswald and leon jaworski, special counsel to the attorney general of texas. the chairman. gentlemen, the commission will be in order. i will make a brief statement for the benefit of mr. mckenzie and mr. oswald, so you will know just what this is about. on november , , president lyndon b. johnson issued executive order no. , appointing a commission "to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of the late president john f. kennedy and the subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination." on december , , congress adopted joint resolution s.j. , which authorizes the commission or any member of the commission or any agent or agency designated by the commission for such purpose to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, and receive evidence. on january , , the commission adopted a resolution authorizing each member of the commission, and its general counsel, j. lee rankin, to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, and receive evidence concerning any matters under investigation by the commission. the purpose of this hearing is to take the testimony of mr. robert oswald, the brother of lee harvey oswald, who prior to his death was charged with the assassination of president kennedy. since the commission is inquiring fully into the background of lee harvey oswald and those associated with him, it is the intention of the commission to ask mr. robert oswald questions concerning lee harvey oswald on any and all matters relating to the assassination. the commission also intends to ask mr. robert oswald questions relating to the assassination of president kennedy and the subsequent violent death of lee harvey oswald. mr. robert oswald has also been furnished with a copy of this statement and a copy of the rules adopted by the commission for the taking of testimony and the production of evidence. mr. robert oswald has also been furnished with a copy of executive order no. , and congressional resolution s.j. no. , which set forth the general scope of the commission's inquiry and its authority for examining witnesses and receiving evidence. that is just for your general information, mr. oswald. you are here with your attorney, mr. mckenzie. would you state your name for the commission? mr. mckenzie. mr. chief justice and members of the commission, my name is william a. mckenzie. our office is fidelity union life building, dallas, tex. i am a member of the state bar of texas and licensed to practice before the supreme court of that state. the chairman. and you are here to advise and represent mr. robert oswald? mr. mckenzie. i am here to advise and represent mr. oswald. and i might state, further, that mr. oswald will freely give answers to any questions that the commission might desire to ask of him. the chairman. thank you very much. there are present at the commission this morning mr. allen dulles, commissioner, and myself. i will be leaving fairly shortly to attend a session of the supreme court, but in my absence mr. allen dulles will conduct the hearing. mr. oswald, would you please rise and be sworn? do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god, in all of these proceedings at which you are to testify? mr. oswald. i do. mr. mckenzie. mr. chief justice, if you may pardon me for just a second. in coming down to the commission's hearing room, i left part of my file in mr. jenner's office, and i have asked mr. liebeler if he will step out and get the file. the chairman. you would like to wait for that? mr. mckenzie. if you don't mind. the chairman. i might add, while we are waiting for that to come back, that mr. albert jenner, one of the associate counsel for the commission, will conduct the examination this morning. mr. mckenzie. yes, sir. i would like to state for the record that i have furnished to mr. jenner and mr. liebeler this morning a letter dated february , , dictated by myself, but signed by robert l. oswald and witnessed by pete white, joan connelly, and henry baer, which i would like for the commission to have a copy of, and which i furnished to the commission. and, further, that i have furnished to mr. jenner and mr. liebeler, counsel for the commission, a letter dated february , , signed by mrs. marina n. oswald and witnessed by declan p. ford, katherine n. ford, and joan connelly. the reason that i furnish these letters to the commission i think will be obvious from a reading of the letters, and, secondly, will likewise explain my position to some extent. and, further, i have furnished to mr. jenner and mr. liebeler letters dated february , , addressed to mr. james h. martin, farrar, dallas, tex., signed by myself, and likewise signed by marina n. oswald, and witnessed by katherine ford, a copy of which i furnished to mr. lee rankin, counsel for the commission; and a letter of like date, february , , addressed to mr. john m. thorne, thorne and leach, attorneys and counselors-at-law, of grand prairie, tex., signed by mrs. marina n. oswald, and witnessed by mrs. katherine ford. i furnish these to the commission for the commission's information. the chairman. thank you. thank you very much, mr. mckenzie. is there anything, mr. mckenzie, you would like to know about our procedure that you are not acquainted with? it is very informal. mr. mckenzie. mr. chief justice, i will say this. this is the first time i have had the privilege of appearing before such a distinguished group of citizens of this country, headed by yourself, and that we are ready to proceed. the chairman. mr. jenner? mr. jenner. thank you, mr. chief justice. may i suggest the wisdom of identifying each of these series of four letters with an exhibit number, and may the reporter supply me with the next number. the first letter mentioned by mr. mckenzie is the letter dated february , , addressed to mr. mckenzie, and signed by mr. robert l. oswald, witnessed by mr. henry baer, joan connelly, and peter white. that will be marked commission exhibit no. . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , for identification.) mr. jenner. the second letter mentioned by mr. mckenzie is dated february , , also addressed to mr. mckenzie, signed by mrs. marina n. oswald, and witnessed by declan p. ford, katherine n. ford, and joan connelly. that will be marked commission exhibit . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. , for identification.) mr. jenner. the next letter is dated february , , and addressed to mr. james h. martin, identified by mr. mckenzie, and signed by mrs. marina n. oswald, witnessed by mrs. katherine ford. two pages. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. jenner. the next and last of the series is a letter of the same date, february , , addressed to mr. thorne, john m. thorne, signed by mrs. marina n. oswald, and witnessed by mrs. katherine ford, two pages. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. mckenzie. mr. jenner, if i may at this time, i would like to make one other statement to the commission. the chairman. before you do that, may i ask if you want those introduced into evidence? mr. jenner. yes. thank you, mr. chief justice. i offer in evidence as commission exhibits through , inclusive, the documents that have been so identified and marked. the chairman. they may be admitted. (the documents heretofore marked commission exhibits nos. through , inclusive, for identification, were received in evidence.) the chairman. now, mr. mckenzie? mr. mckenzie. thank you, mr. chief justice. we have brought with us the original copies of various letters received from--dating from through , from lee harvey oswald to robert l. oswald, together with some copies of a contract between mr. oswald--robert oswald, marina oswald, john thorne, and james martin. we bring those voluntarily and gladly. i would like to give them to the commission with the understanding and stipulation that they will not be released to the press or to any news media, with the exception and understanding of your final report. the chairman. that is the only purpose we would have in having them, and we will not release them to the press or to any other person. mr. mckenzie. i understand that, sir. and the only reason i make that stipulation is for the record. the chairman. yes. with the understanding that the commission will use it for any purpose that is within the scope of the executive order. mr. mckenzie. absolutely. the chairman. and for no other purpose. mr. mckenzie. absolutely. the chairman. do you want to keep the originals and have copies made for us, or do you want to leave the originals with us? mr. mckenzie. well, sir, we have already started making the copies this morning. the chairman. that is all right. either way you want to do it. mr. mckenzie. whichever way the commission would prefer. but we have started making copies this morning. the chairman. that is all right, then. you may do it that way. mr. jenner, i guess you may proceed. mr. jenner. thank you, mr. chief justice. we have made copies of a number of the originals, additional ones of which are also being made. and as i identify the documents, i will be asking leave to introduce photostatic or xerox copies of the originals, and i will so indicate at the appropriate moment. the chairman. very well. mr. jenner. mr. chief justice, mr. dulles--we have had a very short session with mr. mckenzie and mr. oswald, which has been pleasant and of the character indicated here, with full cooperation by both gentlemen. and we have explained to mr. oswald that this particular phase of the matter covers lee harvey oswald's entire life, and i added it also covered mr. oswald's life. at times the particular thrust of the examination might not be particularly apparent to mr. mckenzie, but he is at liberty to inquire as the case might be. but we are covering the entire lives. mr. jenner. mr. oswald, would you be good enough to state your full name? mr. oswald. robert edward lee oswald. mr. jenner. and you reside now where? mr. oswald. at sierra drive, denton, tex. mr. jenner. what is your present business or occupation? mr. oswald. i am employed by the acme brick co. in the capacity of sales coordinator. mr. jenner. what city or town? mr. oswald. denton, tex. mr. jenner. what is the nature of your employment by that company? mr. oswald. i am in the market department of the acme brick co., coordinating between the marketing and plant department, scheduling the plant's production, processing and handling all orders, correspondence relating to the orders, and generally following through in the line of customers service, from prior to placing the orders by various customers, architects, home builders and so forth, to the completion of the invoices. mr. jenner. and how long have you been so employed by the acme brick co.? mr. oswald. april of this year, , will be years. mr. jenner. and i think it might be helpful at this point--what is the date of your birth? mr. oswald. april , , sir. mr. jenner. can you tell me how many years old you are? mr. oswald. i will be years old april , . the chairman. mr. jenner, if you excuse me now, i am going to attend a session of the supreme court. and if you are here this afternoon, i will be back to be with you. mr. dulles (presiding). you may proceed, mr. jenner. mr. jenner. thank you. mr. dulles. would you identify your family--mrs. oswald, and your two fine children? mr. oswald. thank you. my wife's name is vada marie oswald. my daughter's name is cathy marie oswald, and my son's name is robert lee edward oswald, jr. mr. jenner. the ages? mr. oswald. cathy is years old, and robert lee will be years old this april. mr. jenner. would you give us mrs. oswald's maiden name? mr. oswald. vada marie mercer. mr. jenner. she is a native of your present town? mr. oswald. no, sir. she is from keeter, tex. my wife was raised on a farm. this community is located close to boyd, tex., which is approximately miles northwest of fort worth. mr. jenner. all right. your father's full name? mr. oswald. robert edward lee oswald. mr. jenner. edward? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and he is now deceased? mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. and as i recall, he died in august of . mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. you were then about what-- years old? mr. oswald. five years old, sir. mr. jenner. now, your mother is marguerite oswald? mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. do you recall her middle name? mr. oswald. claverie. mr. jenner. and what was her maiden name? mr. oswald. i don't remember. mr. jenner. i think it was claverie. you have a brother, john pic? mr. oswald. that is correct. john edward pic. mr. jenner. and he is a stepbrother? mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is correct. mr. jenner. and born of a marriage of your mother with whom? mr. oswald. pardon me. he is a half brother. mr. mckenzie. he is a half brother, mr. jenner. mr. jenner. i am sorry to say that meant the same thing to me. but i am probably in error. a half brother. mr. oswald. i am sorry. i didn't hear the next question. mr. jenner. that is all right. you correct me when i am wrong. don't hesitate to do that. your half brother's father was whom? mr. oswald. this i do not know. i don't know his full name. mr. jenner. was it john, to the best of your recollection? mr. oswald. i would be of the opinion it was john. mr. jenner. have you ever met him? mr. oswald. no, sir; i have not. mr. jenner. you never had any acquaintance with him? mr. oswald. no, sir. i might further say i don't believe i have ever seen a picture identified as being john's father. mr. dulles. you are speaking of the father now? mr. jenner. that is correct, sir. and your half brother, john pic, is older than you, is he not? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. do you happen to recall his age? mr. oswald. yes, sir; he is now years old. his birthday is january , . mr. jenner. during your lifetime, you have had contact with him, have you not? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and as boys, the family lived together? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. now, your mother, mrs. marguerite claverie oswald, was married a third time, was she not? mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is correct. mr. jenner. to whom? mr. oswald. mr. edwin, i believe his middle initial was m. ekdahl. mr. jenner. when did that marriage take place, to the best of your recollection? mr. oswald. or early ' . mr. jenner. were you present on that occasion? mr. oswald. no, sir; i was not. mr. jenner. had you become acquainted with him prior to the time of the marriage of your mother to mr. ekdahl? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i certainly did. mr. jenner. would you indicate the general circumstances? mr. oswald. well, we was residing at dallas, tex. i don't recall the address. it was victor street. mr. jenner. when you say "we"---- mr. oswald. it was my mother, john edward pic, myself, and lee harvey oswald. residing at the victor street address, in dallas, tex. i recall that perhaps more numerous occasions he was there--now i can say three or four times he was around the house prior to the marriage. mr. jenner. and what was the nature of your mother's employment, if she was employed, in the period immediately preceding the marriage of your mother to mr. ekdahl? mr. oswald. i am sorry, sir, i don't remember. mr. jenner. but she was employed? mr. oswald. yes, sir. i do recall that this was quite a large house. it was a two-story house. and she was renting apartments. mr. jenner. serving as a rental agent? mr. oswald. no. she owned the house, to my knowledge--she owned this house. i believe there were two upstairs apartments. mr. jenner. in addition to that, was your mother separately or independently employed--that is independently from---- mr. oswald. i believe so, sir. where, i do not recall. mr. jenner. and at that time all three of you boys were attending--would that be elementary school at that time? mr. oswald. elementary school, that is correct. mr. jenner. in dallas? mr. oswald. lee was not. mr. jenner. i beg your pardon? mr. oswald. this would have been prior to lee's sixth birthday, i believe, and he would not be attending at that particular time. mr. jenner. but you and your brother john were? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. would you be good enough to tell the commission as much as you can recall, especially of your early life--elementary school days. we are not going to probe into this in any great length. but we would like the background and flavor in which the family lived. start as early as you have any reasonable recollection. mr. oswald. all right, sir. i believe after my father's death in , john was attending elementary school. we lived at the corner of alvar and galvez, in new orleans, la. and the school was right across the street from us, elementary school. john, of course, started---- mr. jenner. excuse me, sir. did i ask you where you were born? mr. oswald. no, you did not. mr. jenner. would you state that? mr. oswald. i was born in new orleans, la. mr. jenner. all right. excuse the interruption. mr. oswald. john attended the school approximately years before i started elementary school. and during this time, the way i remember it, it was a frame building. but by the time i attended first grade it was a brick school building. i do not recall attending for a very long period, because i believe---- mr. jenner. do you recall the name of the elementary school? mr. oswald. no, sir; i do not. mr. mckenzie. mr. jenner, if i may interrupt at this time--robert, in giving this narrative, tie it down as closely as you possibly can to date, to names, to street addresses--just give us as complete detail as you possibly can. mr. oswald. all right, sir. mr. mckenzie. the names of the school, the names of your teachers, and so forth, if you recall. mr. oswald. i believe i was at the point that i don't recall attending this school very much. i perhaps was there the first full year. however, approximately around this time--this would be in --mother placed john edward and myself in a catholic school, which i do not recall the name of, but it was located in algiers, la. mr. jenner. is that a suburb of new orleans? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. mckenzie. just across the mississippi river from new orleans proper. mr. dulles. could i ask a question, mr. jenner? in this school, did you live there, and spend the night there--you were living there all the time? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. dulles. or were you going home? mr. oswald. no, sir; we were living there. lee, of course, at this time, was still very young, and he stayed with mother. i don't recall any address particularly at that time. we were at the catholic school for approximately year. mr. jenner. that would take you to . mr. oswald. yes, sir. and, at that time we were moved by mother from the catholic school and placed into the bethlehem orphan home, in new orleans, la. we used to refer to it as the boh. mr. jenner. excuse me, sir, if i interrupt you at that point. that would be ? mr. oswald. the best i can remember. mr. jenner. lee was only years old. so the "we" did not include lee, is that correct, sir? mr. oswald. that is correct. it included john edward and myself. mr. jenner. as mr. dulles inquired of you at the catholic school--was this an orphan home in which both you and john lived at the home? mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. twenty-four hours a day? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. where did lee reside during this period of your life? mr. oswald. i do not recall the address at that particular time. i might state that i know mother had sold the house on alvar and galvez streets in new orleans, and they were living elsewhere, i remember the house, but i cannot remember the address. mr. jenner. i was particularly interested in whether lee was living with your mother. mr. oswald. yes, sir. he was at this time living with mother. and it is my understanding from her, during later years, discussing with her, that she had various maids or housekeepers come in to keep lee at this early age. mr. jenner. so, i take it, she was employed. mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. was she also employed during the year when you boys were at the catholic school? mr. oswald. i am sure--i feel sure she was, sir. mr. jenner. could we say, except as i might return to the subject specifically, that from the time of the death of your father, in august of , at least until the time of her marriage with mr. ekdahl, she was always employed, either continuously or with short breaks? mr. oswald. yes, sir; we certainly can. mr. jenner. she was the sole support, as far as you know, of your family? mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. all right. i interrupted you--pardon me. you and john entered the bethlehem orphan home. would you describe to us the nature of that school? mr. oswald. well---- mr. jenner. was it a public or private institution? mr. oswald. i would say it was a private home. the atmosphere generally--of course all the boys and girls were separated--i recall just one large dormitory building, sleeping area and so forth. the cafeteria was located---- mr. dulles. could you tell us about how many there were in this orphanage, roughly? was it , , ? mr. oswald. i would say around to , sir. mr. jenner. so you are now about years old, am i correct? mr. oswald. --that would be correct, sir. the cafeteria was located in a separate, or perhaps a wing of this large dormitory building. the school area was located in a separate building towards the entrance of the home. there was quite a large playground there, and quite a large playroom within that large dormitory. mr. mckenzie. the home itself was located in new orleans, is that correct? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. in the city proper, rather than a suburb? mr. oswald. i would say that was so, sir. i still recall that it was pretty close to the end of the st. charles street carline at that particular time. my recollection of the atmosphere and the general conditions there--it was nice, i had a lot of friends there at the home. it was a christian atmosphere. going back to the catholic school--we had to go to church every morning and so forth like that. but here at the tables and so forth we had our grace and such as that. it was generally a christian atmosphere there. he treated us well, i might add--better than the catholic school did. they were not as strict as far as discipline was concerned, but they certainly kept us in line. mr. dulles. could i ask a question there? was this a denominational school, or a publicly maintained school? mr. oswald. i don't believe it was a denominational school. i believe it was a public--i feel it was a private school or home. but that the religious background did not have anything to do with it. it might have been just a protestant home. mr. jenner. i am curious, if i may, mr. dulles--the name of this school or home is the bethlehem orphan home. but neither of you boys was an orphan. mr. oswald. no, sir. mr. jenner. i take it, then, that apart from the name of the school, there were orphans and young people, children such as you, whose mothers, or perhaps fathers, were unable to take care of them during the daytime completely, and the school accepted children under those circumstances. mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is my understanding. mr. jenner. therefore, it was not exclusively for orphans? mr. oswald. no, sir. mr. dulles. i think i have read somewhere--i would like to ask, if i may--i understand there had to be only one parent, though. i don't think if you had two parents you were eligible for this school. i don't know where i read that, but i recollect that. is that the case, do you remember? mr. oswald. my recollection on that, sir, was that i do recall mother saying something that there was a little difficulty in placing us in there, because we were not orphans. but that they had from time to time made exceptions to this, where one parent was living and unable to attend the children fully during the day and so forth, and even at night. mr. jenner. now, you entered in . did you and john continue in this school--for what period of time? mr. oswald. until we moved to dallas, in , sir. mr. jenner. before we get to that, has mr. oswald responded to the questions you had in mind, to describe the nature of the school? mr. dulles. yes. mr. jenner. were you visited by your mother and lee to the extent that she brought him along, when you and john were in the bethlehem orphan home? mr. oswald. yes, sir; we were. i do recall quite vividly that on wednesdays--this perhaps might have been during the summer months only--that john and i would go to downtown new orleans and meet mother at her place of employment, and either spend the afternoon with her, or she would give us money to go to a movie or something. and at this time mother was employed as a manager or assistant manager of a hosiery shop located on canal street. i don't recall the name of it, or the exact address of it. mr. jenner. would you be good enough to inform the commission to the best of your recollection about weekends? did your mother visit you on weekends? were you free to return home and spend the weekend? describe that, please. mr. oswald. i do not recall on the weekends--a weekend, i should say, that we visited mother. normally, we just saw her once a week at that particular time. i do not recall--i have been thinking about this--seeing lee too often at that time. mr. jenner. you and john would be naturally curious to see him once in awhile? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i know we did. i cannot remember it too clearly. but i would say that it wasn't too frequently that we did see lee. mr. jenner. now, you moved to dallas in ? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. was there anything unusual prior to the time you moved to dallas about your life and your relationships with your mother and with lee, if any? was there an event that is now etched on your mind? mr. oswald. i would like to back up there just a little bit. lee was placed at the bethlehem orphan home for approximately the last year that we were there. mr. jenner. that would be, then, ? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. i see. mr. dulles. he would have been to years old then? mr. jenner. yes. he was born in october . so he would then be approximately --well, when he was placed in bethlehem home it was some time during the year , to the best of your recollection? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. would you be good enough to relate to the commission the circumstances that brought that about? what do you recall as to why? mr. oswald. my opinion on that, sir, was this. that mother had wanted to bring lee to the home at an earlier date, but that they had a minimum age required before he could be placed in there, because they did not have any real small children there. i mean there was no nursery there that i recall. and there was no very young children. when i say very young--say under years old. i remember some children there that perhaps were four or three and a half years old. mr. jenner. i take it, mr. oswald, your mother put lee in the orphan home at the first opportunity open to her under the rules or policy of the bethlehem orphan home in that respect. mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. now, did she come to visit the home when lee was placed in the home? if i may, you recall you said you were free on wednesdays, it may have been limited to the summer time, and you and john would go into the new orleans town district and visit your mother. did she come to see lee? does that stimulate your recollection that she did come to visit? mr. oswald. yes, sir; she did come to visit us. i recall after lee was placed in the home, that all three of us would go down and visit mother, and we always took lee with us. mr. jenner. i see. what contact did you have with lee in that -year period, in , when he was with you boys in the home? mr. oswald. john and i both looked on lee as our kid brother, and we stayed pretty close to him, and defended him whenever we had to. mr. jenner. how did lee get along during those days? let's confine it to up to , when you moved to dallas. mr. oswald. i don't recall any instance where it would stand out in my mind that he did not get along with anybody. mr. jenner. he had the normal life of a -year-old at that particular time--got into his fights to the extent everyone else did? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. mckenzie. you mean at the time he was years old? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. there may be others who would be interested in his course of conduct and his reactions even at age . you will forgive me for going into that. mr. oswald. certainly. mr. jenner. but your present recollection, as far as lee's relationship with other -year-olds or 's or 's, his general course of conduct, with regard to the interplay between himself and others at or near his age, is what you would describe as normal? mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is correct. mr. jenner. all right. now we are moving to dallas in . you brought out the fact that lee became enrolled in bethlehem orphan home, because i asked you questions whether there was anything unusual etched on your mind at that time that had occurred up to the point of your moving to dallas. was there anything else that this discussion, that is now stimulated that you would like to report? mr. oswald. no, sir, i cannot think of anything else. mr. jenner. now, what was the reason you moved to dallas? mr. oswald. i don't really know, sir. of course we were quite happy to leave the bethlehem orphan home. by that, i don't mean to imply that they didn't treat us well there. but, of course, we were quite happy to be with mother again, all of us together. as to the reason why mother moved us to dallas, i do not know. mr. jenner. now, when you moved to dallas, you resided--can you recall the address or at least approximately where you lived in dallas? mr. oswald. as i recall, it was victor street. it was a corner house, a large two-story white--i feel sure it was a frame white house. the garage was to the back side of the house. victor street ran in front of the house, and another street down the side where you entered the garage. mr. jenner. i don't think i asked you this. it is a little bit out of order. do you happen to recall your brother john's date of birth? mr. oswald. yes, sir; you did ask me that. it was january , . yes, sir. mr. jenner. all right. thank you. your mother, did she become immediately employed in dallas, or had she already arranged for employment in dallas? mr. oswald. this i do not recall, sir. i feel more like that she perhaps had arranged for employment in dallas before we moved there. i would think this would be the natural thing to do. we had never been to texas before. and, to my knowledge, she didn't know anybody in texas. and why we moved to dallas, i certainly don't recall any reason at all. mr. jenner. did you have any relatives in dallas? mr. oswald. no, sir. mr. jenner. where did mr. ekdahl reside? was he living in or a native of dallas? mr. oswald. i understand mr. ekdahl was from boston, mass., and he was at that time--i believe that is correct, sir--at least the way i remember it--employed by the texas electric co. mr. jenner. at what office? mr. oswald. at dallas. it might not have been texas electric. texas power and light, perhaps--something like that. mr. jenner. but mr. ekdahl was then living in dallas when you, your mother, your brother john, and your brother lee moved to dallas? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. and had you become--you boys become acquainted with mr. ekdahl prior to the time you moved to dallas? mr. oswald. no, sir. mr. jenner. and do you recall any discussion of mr. ekdahl prior to the time of your moving to dallas? mr. oswald. no, sir. mr. jenner. now, your education was, of course, continued when you moved to dallas. would you tell us about that--all three of you? you and your brother john first, because lee was not yet of school age. mr. oswald. all right, sir. i recall the elementary school there in dallas. it was the davy crockett elementary school, which was approximately three or four blocks from the house. mr. dulles. what was that name? mr. oswald. davy crockett. mr. jenner. both you and your brother john were enrolled? mr. oswald. yes, sir. and there was--i believe it was a city park right across the street from this elementary school that i recall playing ping pong and croquet and swimming over there, and such as that. mr. jenner. this period of your life, as you recall it, was a pleasant one? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and except for the restrictions that you and john encountered in the catholic school and in the bethlehem orphan home, what is your recollection of that early period of your life--subject to those limitations--normal and pleasant? mr. oswald. the only thing i can remember--i did have a little difficulty because i had something of a southern drawl. mr. jenner. when you reached texas? mr. oswald. yes, sir. and i do recall having a little difficulty in school myself, to make myself clearly understood. mr. dulles. may i ask a question there? when you went to the davy crockett school, was that a school where you lived, or did you live at home and just attend the school during the school hours? mr. oswald. that was a public school in dallas, and we did not live there. we lived at home. mr. dulles. and your mother then was employed, as i understand it. mr. oswald. to the best of my knowledge--i feel certain she was employed. mr. jenner. do you recall the nature of her employment there? mr. oswald. no, sir; i do not. mr. jenner. she was employed full-time during the daytime, home on weekends? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. now, what was happening to lee when you were living in dallas--in the sense of who took care of him during the daytime, if anyone? what was done for his comfort? mr. oswald. this i don't remember, sir. i don't remember any housekeeper or any maid that mother had at this time. something is coming into my mind about a day nursery. i think perhaps---- mr. jenner. a day nursery? mr. oswald. yes, sir--that lee was taken to during the day when mother was working, and brought home with her at night. i believe that is correct. mr. jenner. would you boys take him to the day nursery and bring him home? mr. oswald. no, sir. mr. jenner. did you play any part in that at all? mr. oswald. no, sir, i do not have any recollection of taking lee to the day nursery or bringing him back. mr. jenner. now, would you please indicate how long you remained in the davy crockett elementary school, you and john? mr. oswald. say for year, sir, school year. mr. jenner. all right. now, during this year, did you become acquainted with mr. ekdahl? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i would say towards the latter part of that school year. mr. jenner. he could come--he did on occasion come to visit your mother's home? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. would you please indicate whether the contact that you boys had with mr. ekdahl about that--that is, he would visit the home occasionally? mr. oswald. yes. mr. jenner. did he take you boys out? mr. oswald. i don't recall. i think perhaps on maybe two occasions we did go to the zoo. i don't recall any other occasions. mr. jenner. we now have you towards the latter part of the year--you were now years old. am i correct about that? mr. oswald. , i would be years old. mr. jenner. your brother john was ? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. and your brother lee was then ? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. did you continue--when did you change--you said you stayed at davy crockett elementary school a year. and then you entered what school? mr. oswald. in the fall of that year we entered chamberlain-hunt military academy, at port gibson, miss. that was the fall of . mr. jenner. you and john? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. now, what was the date that you gave me as to the marriage of your mother and mr. ekdahl? mr. oswald. approximately the early part of . that is what i stated before. and i think now that it would be more correct--after we completed the year at davy crockett, i believe they were married shortly after the end of the school year. mr. jenner. that is in june, probably? mr. oswald. yes, sir; somewhere along that time. mr. jenner. and that would be--june of ' ? mr. mckenzie. june of ' . mr. jenner. so that following the marriage of your mother and mr. ekdahl--what was his full name? mr. oswald. edwin a. ekdahl. i believe his middle initial was "a." mr. jenner. and he was employed, as you stated, by a utility company in dallas at that time? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. now, do you have a recollection or did you come to learn the arrangements, if any, between mr. ekdahl and your mother as to the financing of the attendance of yourself and your brother john at chamberlain-hunt military academy? mr. oswald. my mother told us that she was taking care of all the expenses at the academy. mr. jenner. she told you at this time? mr. oswald. yes, sir. this is my recollection. mr. jenner. and that was your understanding of both you and john at that particular time? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. that she was financing your attendance at the military academy? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. dulles. was she working at that time, or during the period that she was married to mr. ekdahl was she a housewife? mr. oswald. i believe after the marriage to mr. ekdahl, she was not working. mr. jenner. did you have a conversation with her, and did you then come to learn, or have you subsequently come to learn as to how she did finance your attendance at the military academy? mr. oswald. no, sir; i do not. i assume at that particular time that--i did not know the quantity of life insurance that my father had when he passed away. i thought it was perhaps substantial. perhaps to me at that time, a young age, $ , or $ , was a lot of money. from the insurance money, from my father's death, she was able to place us in this military school in mississippi. mr. jenner. do i recall correctly that you also testified earlier that your mother sold--there was a home in new orleans which was sold? mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is correct. mr. jenner. and possibly some of the proceeds of the sale of that home were still intact? mr. oswald. this would be my opinion, that it was. i do not know if the home was paid for or anything. mr. jenner. this is all speculation? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. mckenzie. mr. jenner, if i may interrupt. robert, don't speculate, and don't give any conjecture. tell what you know, and give them the facts as fully as possible. but i am confident that the commission is not interested in any speculation. mr. jenner. and if you do speculate, tell us so. mr. mckenzie. yes--indicate that you are speculating. mr. dulles. do we know the amount of insurance on mr. oswald's life? mr. jenner. i cannot give you the figure, but it is small. mr. dulles. it is known in the record? mr. jenner. yes, sir. representative ford. may i ask a question? following your mother's marriage to mr. ekdahl, did he move in to the residence where you were living, or vice versa, or what were the circumstances? mr. oswald. no, sir. he did move into the home on victor street, following the marriage. mr. dulles. you were living, though, in the military academy. was that a school where you lived? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. dulles. you lived there? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. dulles. day and night? mr. oswald. during the period that we went to the military school, we stayed there day and night, through the months of the school year. mr. jenner. what was the distance from dallas--in general--to the military school? mr. mckenzie. it is approximately or miles. mr. oswald. it was miles south of vicksburg, miss. mr. jenner. quite a distance? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. dulles. so you could not go home weekends? mr. oswald. no, sir; we did not go home weekends. mr. jenner. from the time of the marriage of your mother to mr. ekdahl, to the time you boys left for military school, you all lived in the home on victor street? mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. he moved into the home immediately upon the marriage? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. dulles. could i ask one question? was there a summer holiday, then, when you went home from the military academy? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. dulles. you were home for months, roughly? mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is correct. mr. dulles. that would be in the summer of ' ? mr. oswald. the summer of ' . mr. jenner. it might help if you tell us how long you and john remained at the military school. mr. oswald. three school years. mr. jenner. that would be in , , and . so that you left the military school approximately in june of , is that correct? mr. oswald. that would be correct. mr. jenner. ' or ' ? mr. oswald. well, the school year would be through ' would be year, ' through ' would be years, ' through ' would be the third year. mr. jenner. all right. june of ' ? mr. oswald. yes, sir. and i might say there, when school--the last year that we were there, when school was completed, mother had indicated to us that she wanted us to go to summer school and stay up there that summer. and we did, john and i, stay there at the school after practically all the other ones had left, because i recall helping pack away some old springfield rifles at that time in cosmolene. mr. jenner. the marriage of your mother and mr. ekdahl terminated in divorce, as i recall it. mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. do you recall approximately when that was? mr. oswald. no, sir. i believe that this would be some time in ' . i believe she had divorced mr. ekdahl before our final year at the academy. mr. jenner. mr. liebeler will get the date. i don't recall it myself at the moment. did your mother and mr. ekdahl have occasion during this -year period, plus the summer school, to visit you and john in the military academy? mr. oswald. yes, sir; they did. i recall mr. ekdahl coming there with mother and lee in a buick at that time, that i recall. i don't recall many occasions that mr. ekdahl was there. i might state that at christmas time i believe on each year that we were up at the military school that we returned home. by home, i mean fort worth, or wherever they were living. one year i believe it was benbrook, tex., outside of fort worth. mr. jenner. now, would you be good enough, having mentioned that, to state for the record where your mother and mr. ekdahl resided during the period of time you were at the military school? mr. oswald. i believe the first year---- mr. jenner. chronologically. mr. oswald. the first year that we attended there, mr. ekdahl was on the road quite a bit. and they had during the winter of gone to boston, where they stayed, i would say, for approximately months. i understand mr. ekdahl had been married and had a son by a prior marriage, and they had lived together, all of them--lee, my mother, mr. ekdahl, and his son--in boston. but that he was on the road quite a bit. and i recall a picture of mother and lee in arizona. mr. jenner. living in arizona? mr. oswald. no, sir; not living. on one of the trips. mr. jenner. i see. representative ford. one of the trips with mr. ekdahl? mr. oswald. ekdahl, and mother and lee had gone along with him. whether this was a business trip or a vacation trip, i don't recall. mr. jenner. i see. following their living for months in boston, where did they live thereafter, during that period of time, until the divorce? mr. oswald. i believe after they left massachusetts, they moved to benbrook, tex., and resided at benbrook, tex. mr. jenner. and where is benbrook with respect to dallas? mr. oswald. it is--well, with respect to fort worth, that to me would be easier to say, it is just a little ways northwest of fort worth, on the edge of the city limits of fort worth now. at this particular time it was just more or less a wide spot in the road. the house--i recall going there, perhaps this was during christmas leave from the academy--the house was a good sized stone home that had some acreage with it. there was a creek that was perhaps or yards behind the house. i remember, i believe, right before we arrived on this first occasion, lee had found a skunk out there. he didn't know what a skunk was, but he found out. mr. mckenzie. benbrook is a suburb of fort worth. mr. oswald. yes, benbrook is a suburb of fort worth. as i indicated, at that time---- mr. jenner. could you fix the year? mr. oswald. this would be--i feel certain that this was the first year that we were in military school, and the first christmas. mr. jenner. the first christmas. that would be christmas . mr. oswald. pardon me. let me back up earlier. they were in massachusetts at that time. this would be the second year. mr. jenner. i take it, then, the first christmas, , included the period when your mother, mr. ekdahl, and lee resided in boston with mr. ekdahl's son by a former marriage. mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. and that the living in benbrook, tex., followed the termination of the stay in boston? mr. oswald. that is correct. but i do recall now the first christmas that i was at the military school, because they were so far away, and it was impractical to travel that distance in that length of time--that john went with some friends of his that he made at the academy and stayed at their home--i don't recall where. i remember i went with one of my friends and stayed at his home during christmas. mr. jenner. these were friends of yours in the academy? mr. oswald. that is correct. and their parents agreed to that--because they didn't want us to stay up in the academy at christmas time more or less by ourselves. they wanted to have us with them. mr. jenner. you seem to have a rather vivid recollection of the benbrook, tex., home. i take it that during a summer vacation you lived in benbrook, tex., with your mother and mr. ekdahl and lee. mr. oswald. this particular house i refer to, a native stone home--i believe that is correct. mr. jenner. so that you did have at least two summers at home while you were at the military academy, and the third summer your mother asked you to stay during summer school, and you did not come home? mr. oswald. she asked us, and it was the intent that we stay. but at the last moment we did not go to summer school that year at the academy. we did come to fort worth. mr. jenner. i see. mr. mckenzie. mr. jenner, may i interrupt you please? robert, when did you leave, or when did your mother sell the house on victor street in dallas. tex., if you recall? mr. oswald. i believe she sold it at the time that they moved to boston, mass. mr. mckenzie. that was some time prior to christmas of , is that correct? mr. oswald. that is correct. if i may ask this, sir: if someone would furnish me the date of the divorce. i believe this would help tie down some other dates. mr. mckenzie. off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. mckenzie. i want to assure the commission and counsel that the copy of the transcript of robert oswald's testimony will not be given to the press until such time as the commission makes its final report--if at that time. representative ford. i think that is most important, that we don't indicate that they will never be given to the press. mr. dulles. no. that was made clear before you came in--that this would be available for use in connection with the report in any way that the commission saw fit. mr. jenner. is it all right to proceed, sir? mr. dulles. yes, please, mr. jenner. mr. jenner. the second residence, then, was--i mean the second one during this particular period we were talking about, was in benbrook, tex. how long, or over what period of time did your family reside in benbrook, tex.? mr. oswald. i would say at least approximately a year or a year and a half at that particular house. mr. jenner. you say in that particular house. did they occupy another home in benbrook, tex.? mr. oswald. this was--on our return from military school, the last year we attended, when we returned, mother had purchased a small home there in benbrook, a little bit closer in to fort worth. mr. dulles. this was after the divorce? mr. oswald. yes, sir; this was after the divorce. representative ford. she owned the original house in benbrook? mr. oswald. no, sir; not the stone house. i believe mr. ekdahl had rented that house, or leased it. representative ford. then she purchased this second house? mr. oswald. that is right. after the divorce, she purchased this smaller home. mr. jenner. until you boys returned from military academy, or at least until the time of the divorce of your mother and mr. ekdahl, she was not employed? she was home? mr. oswald. to my knowledge, that is correct. she was not employed at that time, or during the marriage to mr. ekdahl--she was not employed at any time i am aware of. mr. jenner. and able to give the normal and full time and attention of a mother to her son, lee? mr. oswald. that is correct, to the best of my knowledge. mr. jenner. well, during the summertime, when you did spend summer vacations back in benbrook, tex., you had an opportunity to observe personally on this subject, did you not? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. that your mother was not employed, and she was caring for lee during that period? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. did she have any assistance? mr. oswald. no, sir, she did not. none that i recall. mr. jenner. no household help? mr. oswald. no, sir; none that i recall. mr. dulles. could i ask a question there? maybe you are going to cover that. i would like to ask as to--was lee harvey going to kindergarten at this time, or where was he from an educational point of view? he was or years old now. mr. jenner. yes. he was years old--he was years old when they moved to--the commencement of the military school period, your brother, lee, was years old? mr. oswald. six years old. mr. jenner. and that is about the time when you enter elementary school, is it not? mr. oswald. that i entered elementary school? mr. jenner. no--children generally. mr. oswald. yes, sir. i don't believe, however, though, that lee at the age of went to elementary school. mr. jenner. would you tell us what the circumstances were in that connection, to the best of your recollection, and now. mr. oswald. all right, sir. to the best of my recollection, it was that mr. ekdahl was traveling quite a bit, and that mother was traveling with him, and lee did not attend a school during that year. mr. jenner. did lee travel with them? mr. oswald. i believe that he did during that time. mr. jenner. that is your best recollection? mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is my best recollection. mr. jenner. you are trying not to speculate. mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. mckenzie. off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. jenner. back on the record. mr. mckenzie. i believe, to my best recollection, that the school age--commencement age was years old. mr. dulles. i think what we are trying to get at is what was lee doing--was he with the mother, was he in some kind of kindergarten? do you recall during those years you were in the military academy--where was lee? representative ford. when you say the school age, in texas, you mean the mandatory attendance age? mr. jaworski. that is correct. mr. mckenzie. yes, that is what i have reference to. mr. jaworski. i recall, if i may add, at the age of , children were normally sent to kindergarten in those days. mr. jenner. as you have now related it to us, mr. oswald, in this period, let's call it the military school period because we have identified the time question--at the commencement lee was then years old. and as we now learn, normally that would be a kindergarten period. he was traveling or accompanied his mother, your mother, and mr. ekdahl in their travels in connection with mr. ekdahl's business, and he was not either in kindergarten or otherwise in school. mr. oswald. yes, sir; i am of this opinion--he was not. mr. jenner. and that was your information at the time that you and john were attending military school? mr. oswald. that would be correct, sir. mr. dulles. do you know where he was, and who was taking care of him during that period--if your mother was traveling with mr. ekdahl? mr. oswald. i believe lee was going with them, sir, during these travels. i don't recall--other than this one photograph--at one time they were out in arizona. i don't recall any other places that they traveled to. i am sure mother, she was writing us quite frequently, john and i, usually just one letter to both of us--any other names or areas that they had traveled during this period. mr. jenner. now, may we proceed to the succeeding school period, which would be the year ' -' . he is now at that time years of age. your mother and mr. ekdahl and lee were then residing in benbrook, tex. mr. oswald. benbrook; yes, sir. mr. jenner. did lee enter elementary school at that time? mr. oswald. yes, sir; he did. i don't know if the school name was benbrook school. mr. jenner. it was an elementary school? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i know where it is located there and everything. i believe it is closed down now. mr. jenner. you learned of this during the summer vacation, or from letters from your mother? mr. oswald. yes, sir--perhaps both--one way or the other during that period we were aware that lee was attending school in benbrook. mr. jenner. up to this point what were the relationships between yourself and your brother john? cordial and normal brother relationships? mr. oswald. i might say then as now they were cordial. we always got along. he was a little bit older than i was, of course. he had his group of friends, i had mine. we got along just fine. mr. jenner. and the relationship of your brother john and yourself on the one hand, and lee on the other--let us take the - to - to -year-old period. mr. oswald. john and i both, i feel, especially from my side, that we were his big brothers, and when we were around lee we took care of him. we played together, to some extent, anyway. perhaps our interests were a little bit different than lee's at that early age of his life--a spread of years between lee and i and years between lee and john. mr. jenner. yes. that is quite a gap. a boy years old who has a brother years old--that would be you--and a brother years old, that would be john--at that age, that is quite a gap. did you spend much time with him, for example, when you were home during the summer vacations? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i would say we did spend quite a bit of time--both john and i--with lee. i recall going fishing, things like that. but mostly i recall staying at the house at benbrook, the native stone home, out there, and staying within the confines out there, and playing, and staying out there most of the time. i do recall on a number of occasions that mr. ekdahl, my mother, and all three of us would drive into fort worth and go to the movie theater, which at that time was the closest one coming in from benbrook into fort worth. i recall going there quite a few times. mr. jenner. would you relate for us as you recall now the relationships between you and john--between you boys and your mother? was that a pleasant one? were there any difficulties that you now recall? personality-wise, for example. mr. oswald. none that i recall. at that time, i do recall one instance out there at the house, stone house there in benbrook--my mother was a little upset with mr. ekdahl over the fact that--this was, i am sure, the second christmas we were there from military school. mr. jenner. that would be ? mr. oswald. that would be , christmas . he was showering us with candies, cokes, and so forth. and mother thought that he was overdoing it. and we argued the other way. we was on mr. ekdahl's side. mr. jenner. but your relations with your mother, as you recall them now, during this period were pleasant, normal, and you were having no difficulties with her? mr. oswald. no, sir; pleasant memories to me. mr. jenner. anything other than the difficulties two lively boys have when they are naughty? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. dulles. were you conscious at that time of the growing difficulty between your mother and mr. ekdahl? was that apparent at that time? or did that only come later? mr. oswald. no, sir. at that time, it was not apparent to me. mr. dulles. at no time was that a factor in your life, particularly? mr. oswald. no, sir. i would say at no time it was. in moving up perhaps there to the time of the divorce and everything, i don't remember when mr. ekdahl moved out of the house. at that time we were living on eighth avenue in fort worth. this was during a summer period there. and i think this was the summer after the second year that we attended there--this would be the summer of . mr. dulles. if it is agreeable, i think we will adjourn for just a minute. it is now o'clock. representative ford. mr. dulles, may i suggest that we get what the law was in texas at the time, as to when children mandatorily had to attend school? i think that can be checked out very simply and put in the record. mr. dulles. yes. i think that should be in the record. (brief recess.) mr. dulles. the commission will come to order. we will resume, mr. jenner, with your questions. mr. jenner. thank you. it may well be, mr. chairman, that the exhibits through , which although already admitted in evidence, may play some part in these proceedings at some future date. and may i further qualify the exhibits. mr. dulles. certainly. mr. jenner. mr. mckenzie, would you be good enough to hand them to the witness? would you turn to the second page of exhibit no. , mr. oswald? are you familiar with the signatures on the second page of that exhibit? mr. oswald. yes, i am. mr. jenner. and would you identify them, please, in the order in which they appear, and state whether or not they are the signatures of the persons who purported to have signed? mr. oswald. my signature, robert l. oswald, i signed it. witnessed by henry baer, joan connelly, and pete white. and they are known to me. mr. jenner. did they affix those signatures in your presence? mr. oswald. yes, sir; they did. mr. jenner. and they are persons known to you? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. would you identify them for the record? mr. oswald. mr. henry baer is a partner in william a. mckenzie's law firm, in dallas, tex. mr. jenner. he is mr. mckenzie's partner? mr. oswald. yes. miss joan connelly is the secretary in that firm. and mr. pete white is an associate partner in the law firm of mr. mckenzie. mr. jenner. i take it, then, that that document was executed in mr. mckenzie's office. mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. mckenzie. now, mr. jenner, may i interrupt at this point? i would like to add for the record that i was not present at the time that this letter was executed or witnessed. however, i did dictate it in the presence of mr. oswald and, of course, to my secretary, and, of course, to my partner, henry baer. mr. jenner. is miss connelly your secretary? mr. mckenzie. yes, sir. mr. jenner. now, would you take the second letter in that group, and give me the exhibit number--turn to the exhibit page and identify the situation similarly, if you are acquainted with them, and state whether it was signed in your presence and where. mr. oswald. commission exhibit no. --i was not present when this letter was signed. mr. jenner. does the letter bear your signature? mr. oswald. no, sir; it does not. mr. jenner. are you familiar with the signatures of those who purported to have signed it? mr. oswald. i am not familiar with the signature--i am familiar with the signature of mrs. marina n. oswald. i am not familiar with the signature of mr. declan p. ford or his wife, katherine n. ford. i am familiar with the signature of joan connelly, mr. mckenzie's secretary. mr. jenner. would you please identify who mr. and mrs. ford are? mr. oswald. the best way i could do that, i believe, is that they are friends of marina n. oswald. i became acquainted with mrs. ford on wednesday weeks ago, whatever date that is, and mr. ford the following day. mr. jenner. what were the circumstances under which you became acquainted with mrs. ford? mr. oswald. pardon me just a minute. i would like to correct that. it was tuesday rather than wednesday weeks ago that i first became acquainted with mrs. ford. at that time, mrs. ford acted as an interpreter between mr. thorne and myself to relate to mrs. marina oswald what we were talking about. mr. jenner. excuse me, sir. you mentioned a mr. thorne? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. that is mr. john thorne who at that time was the attorney for mrs. marina oswald? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. and where did this take place? mr. oswald. at my residence, at sierra drive, denton, tex. mr. jenner. who was present at that time in addition to yourself, mr. thorne, and mrs. ford? mr. oswald. my wife, vada marie oswald, was present. mr. jenner. and your acquaintance with mr. ford, you say, was the following day? mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is correct. mr. jenner. where did that take place, and in whose presence? mr. oswald. at my residence, again, in denton, tex., in the presence of my wife, vada, mrs. marina oswald, and mrs. kathy ford. mr. jenner. as to mrs. ford, it is weeks ago last tuesday, or weeks ago today? mr. oswald. pardon me just a minute. mr. mckenzie. two weeks ago this past tuesday. mr. oswald. pardon me. mr. jenner. i wish you would hesitate and make reasonably certain of this. mr. oswald. yes, sir; i believe i have erred here. instead of being weeks ago this past tuesday, it was a week ago tuesday that i first met kathy ford. and it was the following day, on that wednesday, that i met mr. ford. in other words, i wish to correct it was not weeks ago, but week ago. mr. jenner. now that you have a calendar before you, would you give us the date so we will have it in the record now? mr. oswald. on tuesday, february , , was the day i first met mrs. kathy ford in the presence of mr. john thorne and my wife, vada, in my home in denton, tex. on february th i met mr. ford in the presence of my wife in my residence at denton, tex. mr. jenner. returning to the exhibit to which you have been directing your attention, which is no. , you were able to identify mrs. marina oswald's signature, and miss connelly's? mr. oswald. yes. mr. jenner. the others you were unable to identify? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. all right. would you turn, then, to the next exhibit, give us the number? mr. oswald. commission exhibit no. . mr. jenner. is it signed on its face? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. well, then, directing your attention to the first page of the exhibit, does it bear a signature? mr. oswald. yes, sir; it does. mr. jenner. are you familiar with that signature? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i am. mr. jenner. whose signature is it? mr. oswald. mr. william a. mckenzie. mr. jenner. this is the mr. mckenzie present here representing you? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and does that exhibit consist of more than page? mr. oswald. yes, sir; it does. mr. jenner. turn to the second page. does it bear a signature? mr. oswald. yes, sir; it does. mr. jenner. are you familiar with those signatures? mr. oswald. the two signatures appear on the second page. one i am familiar with--mrs. marina oswald. mr. jenner. excuse me, sir. is that the first of those that are in a series? mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is correct. mr. jenner. and you are familiar with that, and that is her signature? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. the next signature purports to be that of whom? mr. oswald. mrs. katherine ford. mr. jenner. and your testimony, if i repeated the questions that i did as to the previous exhibit, regarding mrs. ford, would be the same? you are not familiar with her signature? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. and the next signature, please? mr. oswald. sir? mr. jenner. the next signature? mr. oswald. that is the only two signatures that appear on that second page. mr. jenner. would you proceed to the next exhibit? mr. oswald. . mr. jenner. that consists of how many pages? mr. oswald. two pages. mr. jenner. does it bear a signature on the first page? mr. oswald. there is a signature on the first page. the signature is mr. william a. mckenzie. mr. jenner. you are familiar with that signature, and that is his signature? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. the same gentleman we have identified? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. all right. are there any signatures on the second page of that exhibit? mr. oswald. yes, sir. there are two signatures on the second page, and in order as they appear---- mr. jenner. excuse me. are you familiar with either of them? mr. oswald. i am familiar with one of them. mr. jenner. all right. let's take the first one, which is what? mr. oswald. mrs. marina n. oswald. mr. jenner. you are familiar with her signature? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i am. mr. jenner. is that her signature? mr. oswald. yes, sir. i would say that was her signature. mr. jenner. and the second name appears to be that of whom? mr. oswald. mrs. katherine ford. mr. jenner. and your testimony with respect to her, were i to pursue it, would be the same as you testified to a previous exhibit, insofar as your familiarity with her signature is concerned? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. thank you, sir. forgive the interruption, mr. chairman. mr. dulles. that is all right. mr. jenner. mr. chairman, mr. mckenzie has produced for us and tendered to us four documents, during the recess, which i would wish to identify. they have a relationship to the exhibits, the signatures of which i have just finished having identified. would you mark those, please, mr. liebeler? mr. dulles. do you wish these admitted as exhibits? mr. jenner. if you please, sir. i would like to identify the exhibits and indicate their content first. i would call on you, mr. mckenzie, to identify the series of exhibits. they are numbered, mr. chairman, commission exhibits , , , and . if you will identify them, i may have some questions of the witness. mr. mckenzie. mr. chairman, exhibit no. is a contract dated december , , addressed to mr. james h. martin, dallas, tex., and signed by mrs. marina n. oswald, consisting of four pages. mr. dulles. i wish that admitted at this time with that description. mr. jenner. if i may put one question to the witness: mr. oswald, would you look at the last page of that exhibit? does it purport to bear a signature? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. are you familiar with that signature? mr. oswald. there are three signatures. mr. jenner. are you familiar with all of them? mr. oswald. may i ask my attorney something here? mr. jenner. surely. mr. mckenzie. mr. jenner, if i may interrupt you, and pardon me for doing so--on page there is likewise a signature. and i think perhaps he should start at that page. mr. jenner. that is a fine suggestion. will you now refer to page . does it bear a signature? mr. oswald. yes, sir; it does. mr. jenner. are you familiar with that signature? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i am. mr. jenner. whose signature is it? mr. oswald. mrs. marina n. oswald. mr. jenner. turn to page . there are several signatures on that page, is that correct? mr. oswald. that is correct. there are three. mr. jenner. are you familiar with any of them? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i am. mr. jenner. would you take them in order, taking the uppermost one first. indicate whether you are familiar with that signature, and whose signature it is. mr. oswald. it is my own signature, robert oswald. mr. jenner. the next under that? mr. oswald. mr. james h. martin. mr. jenner. are you familiar with that signature? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and it is his signature? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. who is mr. james h. martin? mr. oswald. he was, at that time, when this contract was signed, appointed as marina's business agent. but employed at the inn of the six flags at arlington, tex. mr. jenner. he has been identified in previous sessions before the commission. and there is a third signature? mr. oswald. yes, sir; there is. mr. jenner. and are you familiar with that signature? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i am. mr. jenner. whose is it, please? mr. oswald. mr. john m. thorne, attorney. mr. jenner. and he is the mr. thorne that we have identified a few moments ago? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. he was at that time the attorney for mrs. marina oswald? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. is there a fourth signature? mr. oswald. no, sir; there is not. mr. jenner. were those signatures affixed in your presence? mr. oswald. yes, sir; they were. mr. dulles. mr. jenner, i believe these are photostatic copies, are they not, that are being identified? mr. jenner. yes, sir. mr. mckenzie, would you please make a statement with respect to that? mr. mckenzie. yes, sir. i was going to at this time, mr. jenner, state for the record that exhibit is a photostatic copy. and this photostatic copy was furnished to me by mrs. marina n. oswald. mr. dulles. where is the original of that? mr. mckenzie. marina n. oswald has the original. mr. dulles. has that been so compared, that we know this is a true copy? mr. mckenzie. mr. chairman. pardon me. i retract that statement. marina n. oswald furnished to me a copy of this exhibit, but it was a signed copy, and it was an original copy. mr. jenner. a duplicate original? mr. mckenzie. yes. and i presume mr. james martin had the original, since it is addressed to him. mr. dulles. and both the original and this duplicate bear these signatures, do they? mr. mckenzie. i have never seen the original, sir, but i presume that they do. and i think robert oswald here can clarify that, because he was present at the time that the original was signed, and also the duplicate copies. mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. dulles. and the duplicates were signed by the same parties as the original? mr. oswald. yes, sir. representative ford. may i ask--did you get a copy of the original at the time? mr. oswald. no, sir. i received a copy in the mail the second day after the signatures were signed. my copies were unsigned. mr. jenner. mr. oswald, were you present when all of the copies were contemporaneously signed, if they were contemporaneously signed? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i was. mr. jenner. so you know of your own knowledge that what has been termed here the original, which may be in the possession of mr. martin, was signed, and was signed in your presence? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and the document which we are now discussing is a photostatic copy of a carbon copy of the original? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. executed contemporaneously with the original? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. would you have any further questions? mr. dulles. no, i have no further questions. shall we admit this at this time, or do you want to wait until you have gone through them all, and then admit them all? mr. jenner. it might be more convenient to identify them all, because they are of a series, if i have your permission. mr. dulles. certainly. mr. mckenzie. the next document is commission exhibit , and purports to be a photocopy, or is a photocopy of a purported contract between marina n. oswald and robert oswald, bearing the date of december , , and purportedly signed by marina n. oswald, robert l. oswald, john m. thorne, attorney, and james h. martin, approved as to form, and consisting of two pages. mr. jenner. now, if you would turn to the second page, please, sir--i notice a recital, "executed by the undersigned parties this ninth day of december a.d., ," and what purports to be your signature. was this document, or that of which this is a xerox copy, executed on that date? mr. oswald. i do not have a calendar before me. if the ninth day of december was a monday, it was signed on that date. mr. jenner. mr. dulles is checking the calendar. mr. dulles. i am afraid i don't have a calendar here. mr. jenner. i am observing a calendar, and the ninth was a monday. mr. mckenzie, does the previous document also bear a date? mr. mckenzie. it bears the date of december , mr. jenner. mr. jenner. december , then, was a saturday. mr. mckenzie. if monday was the ninth, friday was the sixth. mr. jenner. was the previous exhibit, which is numbered , executed on december th? mr. oswald. no, sir; it was not. mr. jenner. on what date was it executed? mr. oswald. it was executed on monday, december th. mr. jenner. despite its bearing a date of december th, it was actually executed on the ninth, when commission exhibit was executed? mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is correct. mr. jenner. now, directing your attention to the second page of exhibit no. , that likewise bears a series of signatures. i ask you first whether those signatures were affixed in your presence? mr. oswald. yes, sir; they were. mr. jenner. now, was the document now identified as , which is a xerox copy--was the original of exhibit executed at the same time as the copy which you have produced for us executed? mr. oswald. may i have that again, please, sir? yes, sir; that is correct. mr. jenner. that is, there were a series of papers, original and carbon copies, signed, at one and the same time? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and all of them were signed in your presence? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. all right. now, there are four signatures on that page. would you proceed to state your familiarity with those signatures and identify them? mr. oswald. all right. left to right, as the signatures appear--my signature, robert l. oswald. mr. jenner. and to the right of that? mr. oswald. and to the right of that, the signature of mrs. marina n. oswald, which i am familiar with. the next signature is mr. john m. thorne, attorney, and i am familiar with his signature. and the last signature that appears on this second page, mr. james h. martin. i am also familiar with his signature. mr. jenner. and these persons are the same persons you have heretofore identified? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and is the document of which this is a xerox copy in the same condition now as it was the time those signatures were affixed to it? mr. oswald. may i have a moment, sir? mr. jenner. yes. mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is correct. mr. jenner. is that likewise true of exhibit no. ? would you take a look at it, please? mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is correct. and if i may say this about this--on page of exhibit , you will note that towards the upper right-hand part of this page there was--on this copy, there is a dark mark, following the word "royalties." representative ford. what page is that? mr. oswald. page , the sixth line, the word that was crossed off or out of the contract was the word "gifts." mr. jenner. and was that done in the course of the discussion and preceding the execution of the document? mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is correct. mr. jenner. so the document is in the same condition it was when executed? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. would you identify the next exhibit, mr. mckenzie? mr. mckenzie. the next exhibit is a photocopy of an investment agency agreement. it is commission exhibit no. . this exhibit bears the date of december , , and is an agreement by and between john m. thorne and james h. martin, co-trustees, of dallas county, tex., referred to in the exhibit as principal, and the first national bank of fort worth, tex., referred to in the exhibit as agent. the exhibit consists of pages, together with a schedule a and a letter addressed to the trust department of the first national bank of fort worth, tex. this exhibit is a photocopy of a photocopy of a duplicate original. i have seen the duplicate original upon which it had the names, handwritten names of john m. thorne, co-trustee, and james h. martin, co-trustee, as principal, on page , and preston a. utterbach, vice president and trust officer of the first national bank of fort worth, tex. however, these xerox copies of a copy, being a photocopy, do not have the signatures on, because the second photocopy did not reproduce the signatures. i have seen those. mr. jenner. the xerox machine was unable to pick up the signatures? mr. mckenzie. no. the prior photocopy was unable to pick up the signatures. mr. dulles. because they had not been put on, or because they didn't pick them up? mr. mckenzie. it would not pick them up, mr. dulles. the signatures were on the instrument itself, but the photo machine would not reproduce the signatures. mr. jenner. you actually saw the signatures? mr. mckenzie. yes, sir. mr. jenner. where did you see that document, mr. mckenzie? mr. mckenzie. marina n. oswald gave it to me in my office. mr. jenner. would you state the thrust or substance of those agreements? mr. mckenzie. the substance of it is that mr. thorne and mr. martin, as principals, constituted the first national bank of fort worth as the agent to hold certain trust funds, consisting, as shown by the exhibit, attached to this exhibit, of $ , . mr. jenner. it was deposited with the first national bank of fort worth under this trust and deposit agreement, agency agreement? mr. mckenzie. yes, sir. i presume that to be true. i know preston utterbach. and if his signature was on it, i know that the funds were deposited there at the bank, or else he would not have executed it. mr. dulles. could i ask the source of these funds, if you know? mr. mckenzie. i do not know them, sir. but marina oswald has told me that she felt that the funds came from contributions made to herself and her children, from various sources, of which i know nothing. mr. jenner. excuse me, mr. mckenzie. did you use the word "felt." she told you she felt? mr. mckenzie. yes, i did. mr. jenner. that is the extent of your personal knowledge? mr. mckenzie. yes, sir. mr. jenner. mr. oswald, do you have any personal knowledge, apart from or in addition to that of mr. mckenzie, with respect to the source of the funds? mr. oswald. i would say this was monies received through the mails, and delivered in person to mr. thorne or perhaps mr. martin by various people who wanted to contribute to marina's welfare and her children's welfare. mr. jenner. upon what is your statement based? conversations? mr. oswald. conversations, and also being---- mr. jenner. with whom, sir? mr. oswald. marina n. oswald. mr. jenner. she related this to you? mr. oswald. yes. mr. jenner. all right. anybody else? what about mr. thorne and mr. martin? had you had conversations with them as to the source of these funds? mr. oswald. yes, sir. i would say that would be correct, too. mr. jenner. did these conversations take place in the presence of mrs. marina oswald? your conversations with mr. thorne and mr. martin? mr. oswald. not that i recall, sir. i am thinking perhaps, when i was aware at first that the $ , was to be placed in the trust fund at the first national bank of fort worth, i learned this through a conversation on the telephone. mr. jenner. with whom? mr. oswald. with mr. jim martin. mr. jenner. are you familiar with mr. martin's voice? mr. oswald. yes. mr. jenner. did you call him or did he call you? mr. oswald. i do not recall, sir. mr. jenner. when did this take place? mr. oswald. approximately a week prior to the actual deposit and setting up of the trust fund at the first national bank in fort worth. representative ford. mr. jenner, i suggest we get a copy of the deposit slip or some other validation of the actual amount. mr. jenner. thank you, sir. we will undertake to do that. these documents, as i have indicated, were produced for us during the recess. we don't have the full information. perhaps, mr. mckenzie--you have been quite helpful. you might be further helpful to us--you might have the deposit--evidence of the deposit. mr. mckenzie. mr. jenner, i wish i did have it. however, i know that the first national bank of fort worth would gladly duplicate that for you. and i contemplate that i will be in the process of obtaining a copy from either mr. thorne or mr. martin in the very near future, because i have asked both of those gentlemen, on behalf of marina oswald and her children, for a full and complete accounting as of february , , and i will likewise say that she has informed me up until february , , she has had no accounting from either of those gentlemen. mr. jenner. is there another exhibit? mr. mckenzie. yes, sir. the next exhibit, mr. jenner, is commission exhibit no. , which is a xerox copy of a power of attorney granted to the firm of thorne and leach, attorneys and counselors at law, bearing the date of december , , in which it has three--i presume these are omissions from the exhibit--commencing on line , following the words "trust funds", there is an omission, and then the word "bequests", and then there is another omission, and on line , at the beginning of that line, there is an omission. mr. dulles. what is the nature of the omissions? mr. mckenzie. mr. dulles, i have been told that the word "gifts" was omitted. the word "gift" was originally in it. but i have been told the word "gift" was omitted, or struck out. mr. jenner. mr. dulles, i had intended to question the witness about that. mr. mckenzie. this contract provides that marina n. oswald, "bargain, transfer, sell and assign an undivided percent of all such sums when collected or paid to my account," referring to the fund in the preceding paragraph. the agreement is signed by marina n. oswald, witnessed by james h. martin, and accepted by john m. thorne. i am familiar with marina n. oswald's signature, and this is a copy of her signature, or is her signature. i am not familiar with mr. martin's signature or mr. thorne's signature. mr. jenner. directing your attention to that document, mr. oswald, are you familiar with any of the signatures it bears? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i am. mr. jenner. would you identify each signature and indicate those with which you are familiar? mr. oswald. as they appear in order, the first signature is mrs. marina n. oswald. i am familiar with this signature. the second signature is mr. james h. martin. i am familiar with his signature. mr. jenner. it is his signature? mr. oswald. i would say yes, it is. mr. jenner. all right. mr. dulles. is that under "accepted"--is that first word there "john"? mr. oswald. yes, sir. and the last signature as appears on this exhibit is the signature of john m. thorne. mr. jenner. do you know the day upon which that document was executed? it bears a date of december , which is a thursday. mr. oswald. no, sir; i do not. pardon me--the th day of december is the date purported--that this document was executed at. i am not familiar that it was executed on that date. mr. jenner. are you familiar with the date when it was in fact executed? mr. oswald. no, sir; i am not. i might further state i was not present when this document was signed, and i was not aware of this document until thursday, february th. mr. jenner. ---- mr. oswald. . mr. jenner. may i inquire of you, mr. mckenzie, whether you have seen the original of the document of which this purports to be a xerox copy? mr. mckenzie. i have not, sir. but i have seen a duplicate copy, an original copy. mr. jenner. a duplicate executed copy? mr. mckenzie. yes, sir. mr. jenner. that was furnished to you by whom? mr. mckenzie. by marina n. oswald. mr. jenner. and this is a photostatic copy of what, with respect to an original, carbon copy or otherwise? mr. mckenzie. it is a photocopy of a carbon copy. mr. jenner. and have you personally seen the carbon copy of which this is a photo? mr. mckenzie. yes, sir; i have. mr. jenner. and is the document now identified as commission exhibit no. in the same condition now as it was when you first saw it? mr. mckenzie. exactly. mr. jenner. and to the best of your recollection, is it a duplicate of the original? mr. mckenzie. yes, sir. the next exhibit is commission exhibit no. entitled "the oswald trust," and bearing a heading, "the state of texas, county of dallas, know all men by these presents," and it is a trust agreement dated december , , by and between marina nikolaevna oswald "a widow, hereinafter called grantor, and john m. thorne and james h. martin of dallas county, texas, co-trustees, hereinafter called the trustee" in which it describes certain funds described on schedule a attached to this exhibit, which consists of some six pages, plus the schedule a, schedule a describing the trust funds as cash, $ , . and i might add, in my opinion, mr. jenner, for whatever it may be worth, that this trust grants to john thorne and james martin purportedly grants unto those two men as co-trustees absolute discretion as to the distribution of the trust funds. in fact, on page it says, "as the trustee shall in either case in its uncontrolled discretion deem advisable." mr. dulles. who is the beneficiary of this trust? mr. mckenzie. marina oswald and her children, in the discretion of john thorne and james martin. representative ford. is that $ , the same $ , referred to in a previous exhibit? mr. mckenzie. mr. ford, i presume so. but that is only a presumption on my part. i do not know. i might further add, for the benefit of counsel and the commission, that marina oswald has informed me, and i think robert oswald can testify as to this, which i leave to your discretion, that at no time have these, up until february --have these---- mr. jenner. ? mr. mckenzie. --have these exhibits, numbered consecutively from through , been read to her in russian. and at the time of execution, they were not interpreted, nor did they show of the contents--what the contents were, except as explained to her in english. mr. jenner. mr. mckenzie, the document is identified as commission exhibit no. , directing your attention to page , has blanks for signatures, and names of grantor and co-trustees under those lines. could i ask you whether you have seen the original of this document? mr. mckenzie. i have not, sir. i have seen a copy. mr. jenner. an executed copy? mr. mckenzie. to the best of my recollection, it was an executed copy, yes, sir. mr. jenner. and from what source did you obtain or was the document exhibited to you? mr. mckenzie. the document was given to me by marina oswald. mr. jenner. and you observed that it was executed? mr. mckenzie. yes, sir. mr. jenner. by the persons whose names appear on page of the exhibit ? mr. mckenzie. yes, sir. i have made these exhibits available to the commission for whatever purpose they may serve the commission, and for no other purpose. mr. dulles. yes. i think we might want to reserve on that until the whole commission can get together. we want to examine everything within the mandate we have been given by the president. we don't want to go afield, quite naturally. and we cannot tell at this stage what bearing these particular papers might have. so i think i would like to reserve judgment on these. mr. mckenzie. well, mr. dulles, i made that statement in view of that fact. i felt that that would be true. mr. jenner. mr. mckenzie, for the purpose of our record, would you be offended if we had you sworn, so you could then state that the statements you have made to the commission are true and correct? mr. mckenzie. i would not be offended in any way. mr. dulles. do you, mr. mckenzie, swear that what you have stated, is the full truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. mckenzie. i do, mr. dulles. mr. jenner. mr. chairman, i offer in evidence as commission exhibits through , inclusive, the documents that have been so identified. mr. dulles. they may be accepted. (the documents referred to were marked commission exhibits nos. through , inclusive, for identification, and received in evidence.) mr. dulles. i wish to state, in accepting these documents, the commission does not want to pass on or assume any responsibility with respect to the financial or other arrangements described in these documents. mr. jenner. i sought to identify them, mr. chairman, and gentlemen, and to tender them in evidence because of events of the past few days, and to confirm mr. mckenzie's authority to speak on behalf of mr. oswald. mr. dulles. very well. mr. jenner. at the recess, mr. oswald, we were dealing with--excuse me. we were dealing with the period of time that you and your mother and your two brothers lived in benbrook, tex. this brought us through the summer of , i believe. am i correct? mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. mr. liebeler has determined that the divorce of mr. ekdahl and your mother took place in . we cannot give you the month and the day in , but it was during the year . we had reached the point in which you related to us that, i believe, following the divorce of mr. ekdahl and your mother, she purchased a small home. mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. and refresh my recollection, please--was that in benbrook, tex.? mr. oswald. that was in benbrook, tex. mr. jenner. have we reached a point now at which your brother, lee, had entered elementary school? mr. oswald. yes, sir; we have. mr. jenner. and you boys have now terminated your attendance at the military academy? mr. oswald. yes, that is correct. mr. jenner. and would you please relate what elementary school you and your brother, john, attended, and lee, if he attended the same school? mr. oswald. prior to the school year of - , we moved to ewing street, ewing street, within the limits of the city of fort worth. mr. jenner. was the home that had been purchased in benbrook, tex., sold? mr. oswald. i would say yes, sir. mr. jenner. well, you state that you would say. is that your best information? mr. oswald. yes, sir. i am not aware of any transactions in regards to the selling of that home or anything. since we did move, and she did purchase this home on ewing street, in fort worth, i would assume that she did sell the house at benbrook, because she didn't rent it, and we no longer went out there. i feel sure she did sell it. mr. jenner. did i understand you to say that your mother purchased a home at ewing? mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is correct. mr. jenner. would you, in very short compass, tell us the physical characteristics of that home? mr. oswald. it was a two bedroom, asbestos siding, with an attached garage, red roof, small porch on the front, and an average sized lot. mr. jenner. these homes you have been describing all have, as i recall it--have either attached garage or separate garages. mr. oswald. yes, sir--with the exception of the home there in benbrook that my mother purchased after the divorce from mr. ekdahl--it did not have a garage, and i did not recall a garage at the native stone house in benbrook. mr. jenner. the purpose of my inquiry was, did the family have an automobile? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. was that true when you lived in louisiana? mr. oswald. to my best recollection on that--my father did have, at the time of his death, either a or chevrolet. i believe my mother sold it after his death. i believe she did not own an automobile in new orleans, when we were at the bethlehem orphan home. mr. jenner. were you boys interested in automobiles, as most young teenagers are? mr. oswald. i think so, sir. mr. jenner. tinker around with them, drive them? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. both you and your brother john? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. later on, in later years, did your brother lee--was he likewise interested in automobiles, did he tinker with them? mr. oswald. not to my knowledge, sir, did he tinker with them. even though i can recall a couple of occasions with automobiles that i owned that he would assist me in any repairs i might be making on the automobile at that time. mr. jenner. well, i have in mind his interest now. was he a good driver? mr. oswald. to my knowledge, he did not drive. mr. jenner. he did not drive at all? mr. oswald. no, sir; he did not. mr. jenner. did you ever see him drive an automobile? mr. oswald. no, sir; i did not. on two or three occasions in later years, i offered to teach him to drive. mr. jenner. you recall this specifically now, do you? would you relate to the commission this course of events in his life--a young man who never did learn, at least to your knowledge, to drive an automobile? mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is correct. the first occasion that i recall that i offered to lee to teach him how to drive--at that time, i owned a ' chevrolet. i had married, and i was residing at davenport, fort worth, tex., a home which i had purchased. and lee was home on leave. mr. jenner. give us the time, please, as closely as you can. mr. oswald. this would be some time in . mr. jenner. he was then in the marine corps? mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is correct. mr. jenner. and he was home on leave? mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is correct. mr. jenner. state the circumstances, will you please? mr. oswald. with relation to my offer to teach him how to drive? mr. jenner. yes. how did that come about? mr. oswald. well, he was spending a day, or part of a day over at our house. we were going to the grocery store or something--lee and i. as i backed out of the driveway, i recall saying something to him, or he brought it up, or something--about wanting to learn how to drive. and i said, "well, we can start right now." it was an automatic transmission. "it is the easiest thing in the world to do. there is nothing to worry about. and i would be right here with you." well, he didn't think that was the time to try to start. he did want to learn how to drive, though. and he did not take the wheel. mr. jenner. he did not? mr. oswald. no, sir. at no time was i present when he took the wheel of a car and drove it. mr. jenner. and on any occasion in your lifetime, did you ever see him, whether you were in the vehicle--whether or not you were in the vehicle--behind the wheel and actually operating in motion an automobile? mr. oswald. no, sir; i have never known him to operate an automobile, to drive it. mr. jenner. what about mrs. marina oswald in that respect? mr. oswald. no, sir; to my knowledge she does not drive and she does not know how to drive, and i have never seen her operate an automobile. mr. jenner. i notice when you are smoking that you hold the cigarette in your left hand. are you left handed? mr. oswald. yes, sir. i am left handed when i write and eat. mr. jenner. and you are right handed otherwise? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. throwing a baseball? mr. oswald. throwing a baseball. at one time i could handle it with both hands--especially a football better than a baseball. but i have returned to my right hand on that. i was more accurate with my right hand than with my left hand, in throwing things. i kick footballs right footed and so forth. mr. jenner. what about your father? was he right handed or left handed? mr. oswald. this i do not know, sir. mr. jenner. your mother? mr. oswald. my mother is left handed. mr. jenner. and your brother lee? mr. oswald. he was right handed. representative ford. was there ever a time that he appeared to be left handed, as far as you recollect? mr. oswald. no, sir. i have never known him to handle anything--throw a baseball, football, et cetera, fire a rifle, or do anything, left handed. mr. jenner. in order to be certain of the details in this respect, when he wrote, did be write with his right or his left hand? mr. oswald. right handed. mr. jenner. right handed? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and you in fact have seen him write with his right hand? mr. oswald. yes, sir, i have. mr. jenner. during your youth? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. did you ever--was there ever an occasion when you saw him write or attempt to write with his left hand? mr. oswald. no, sir, i have never seen him at any time, on any occasion, ever attempt to write or do anything left handed. mr. jenner. you really covered my next question, but i would like to ask it anyhow. there are men in athletics who are either right handed or left handed, but who throw or bat or do something from the other side. did he ever throw left handed or in any athletic endeavor employ his left hand predominantly as against his right hand? mr. oswald. no, sir; not to my knowledge, he never did. mr. jenner. from your many years of experience with him, being associated with him, as his brother, was he a predominantly right-handed person? mr. oswald. yes, sir; he most certainly was. representative ford. and you personally saw him throw, kick, or do anything athletic over the years, and saw him use his right hand exclusively? mr. oswald. yes, sir. i would say without qualification--i might be repeating myself here--at no time did i ever know him to do anything left handed, to the extent that it would be predominant. of course his hands worked together, and so forth. but i have never known him to do anything left handed. mr. jenner. from your long acquaintance with him, and your intimate knowledge of his physical characteristics in that respect, do you have an opinion as to whether he was instinctively right-handed or instinctively a left-handed person? mr. oswald. i would say he was instinctively a right-handed person. mr. jenner. in all the years you were with him, you had opportunity to see him react instantaneously without having time to think about using his right hand or left hand? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. did you observe him on many occasions? mr. oswald. yes. i have never known him to use his left hand in any manner when an occasion would require that he use either hand--instinctively went to his right hand. mr. jenner. was he a coordinated person in the use of his right hand? some are not coordinated athletically. mr. oswald. my opinion of this, sir, would be that he was coordinated to the extent that looking at myself and many, i would compare us as two peas in a pod. quite fast, well coordinated. mr. jenner. he was dextrous? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and well coordinated? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and you had an opportunity over the years to see him engage in athletics, did you? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. during your youth, as a young man, in any event, did you and your brother john and lee have an interest in guns, rifles, pistols, cap guns, firearms generally? mr. oswald. yes, sir; we certainly did. i would say this. mr. jenner. now, this includes all three of you? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i understand that. of course john and i, when we attended military school, we had more of an opportunity to become acquainted with firearms. we certainly played with cap pistols, rubber guns, et cetera, when we were young. lee did the same thing. however, i would say this. mother did not like firearms. mr. dulles. we will recess now until o'clock this afternoon. (whereupon, at : p.m., the president's commission recessed.) afternoon session testimony of robert edward lee oswald resumed the president's commission reconvened at p.m. mr. dulles. the commission will come to order. mr. dulles. mr. jenner, will you please continue? mr. jenner. thank you, sir. mr. reporter, would you read the last question and answer we have so we can orient ourselves. to refresh your recollection, mr. oswald, i had commenced to examine you with respect to the interests of yourself, your brother john, and your brother lee in firearms, even at the children's stage. and you had indicated developments in that area as you became older. i think you reached the point where, as an example, you said of course your brother john and yourself had attended military school. mr. oswald. and, also, i believe, sir, the question referred to all three of us. mr. jenner. yes. mr. oswald. to what extent we were familiar with firearms. to elaborate, at military school john was by far the better shot of the two of us. he was on the school rifle team. and, at this time, i was years old--when i first attended there. my hunting instinct came alive. mr. jenner. hunting? mr. oswald. hunting instinct came alive, and at the first opportunity i started hunting squirrels and so forth there in mississippi. i did this on practically every occasion i had. john was on the rifle team. and up to that time, a number of years after that, we never had a firearm in the house. my mother didn't like them. she was scared of them. and after we moved to ewing street, none of us owned a rifle, even a . , or a shotgun, or any type of firearm. and when i wanted to go hunting from there, i had various friends that had rifles that i would borrow, and i would go to the west side of fort worth, and benbrook, and do my squirrel hunting. i don't recall at anytime during that period that lee went with me. i don't know that john did--because approximately this time he had reached the age of , at which time he joined the u.s. coast guard. mr. jenner. this is when you moved over to ewing street in fort worth? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. up to that time, had you and lee at any time gone hunting? mr. oswald. no, sir; i do not recall any time that we went hunting at that time. mr. jenner. this was - . so he was to years old? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. had, to your knowledge, lee gone hunting or used firearms or played or been interested in firearms with you or with your brother? mr. oswald. no, sir. to my knowledge i don't remember any time he went hunting with myself or my older brother john. as i stated, there was no firearms in the house. he liked cap pistols, like any other kid. and to the extent that we didn't even own a bb gun. mr. jenner. had you ever had bb guns around your home? mr. oswald. no, sir. mr. jenner. had you boys ever owned one? mr. oswald. no, sir. mr. jenner. by this time, i assume you had shot one. mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. owned by one of your pals or somebody around the neighborhood? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and lee had what you would describe as a normal interest in firearms? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. that every boy has? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. but not beyond that? mr. oswald. no, sir. mr. jenner. were there any pistol or rifle ranges around that you boys attended? mr. oswald. no, sir; there was not. mr. jenner. now, your brother john at this point entered the coast guard? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. you were attending--you were then . you were now attending high school, i assume. mr. oswald. junior high school. mr. jenner. in fort worth? mr. oswald. fort worth, w. c. stripling junior high school. mr. dulles. what was the name of that? mr. oswald. w. c. stripling junior high school. mr. jenner. did your brother john attend high school? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. what high school did he attend? mr. oswald. we went for awhile--to get this thing in sequence, before he went into the coast guard he attended arlington heights high school in fort worth, i believe, for one-half year, and then he transferred to paschal high school in fort worth. mr. jenner. had you attended either of those high schools? mr. oswald. yes, sir; arlington heights high school. mr. jenner. i think i might go back a little bit. i will return to the firearms. but to maintain the sequence, when you and your brother john came to benbrook, tex., after you completed your schooling at the military school, i assume you attended school in benbrook, tex. mr. oswald. no, sir; we did not, because we were just there during the summer months. and we moved prior to the school year of ---- mr. jenner. ' ? mr. oswald. ' --we moved to the address on ewing street. mr. jenner. all right. and each of you then enrolled in arlington? mr. oswald. i was in the ninth grade, which was junior high school in texas. i enrolled in w. c. stripling. mr. jenner. first? mr. oswald. yes, sir. and john edward enrolled in arlington heights high school. mr. jenner. w. c. stripling high school was a junior high school? mr. oswald. yes. mr. jenner. and arlington heights high school was senior high school? mr. oswald. yes, sir; the last years. mr. jenner. and, at this time, your brother lee was enrolled in---- mr. oswald. west ridglea elementary school. mr. jenner. so at this point each of you was attending a different school? mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is correct. mr. jenner. and lee was years old. you continued at arlington heights junior high school for how long? mr. oswald. no, sir--w. c. stripling junior high school. for year, the ninth grade. if i may, sir, perhaps correct something--i don't know for sure which way it was. when i said lee attended west ridglea elementary school, i think perhaps the first year he attended arlington heights elementary school, because i don't believe the west ridglea elementary school was completed at that time. mr. jenner. we might take you in sequence so that at least i don't get confused. you spent a year at w.c. stripling high school? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. so we now have--we are now into ' -' , is that correct? mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. and after a year at w.c. stripling high school, you enrolled where? mr. oswald. at arlington heights high school. mr. jenner. and that would be in the fall of ? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and you attended arlington heights high school how long? mr. oswald. i attended my sophomore year. in my sophomore year i started---- mr. jenner. would that be , the end of your sophomore year? mr. oswald. no, sir; would be the end of the school year. that summer there i started a job with an a&p supermarket there in fort worth. i might say along this period mother seemed to be having difficulty keeping a job or making enough money and so forth to raise us. i stayed out of school that next year and worked for a&p. mr. jenner. out of school - ? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. did your brother remain in school--john? mr. oswald. john at this time was in the coast guard. mr. jenner. already in the coast guard? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. all right. and you worked at the a&p during this period? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. did you contribute your earnings to your mother? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. they were probably not a great amount at this age. do you recall what they were, per week? mr. oswald. perhaps my starting salary was somewhere around $ a week, or something like that. i believe by the end of the year i had become a checker, and perhaps it was $ or $ a week. mr. jenner. what proportion of that did you contribute to the sustaining of the family? mr. oswald. i would say practically all of it, but what i needed for expenses, a little spending money. mr. jenner. do you know whether your brother john made an allotment of any kind to your mother or sent her any money? mr. oswald. to my knowledge, he did not. mr. jenner. was there any illness or disability of any kind that contributed to your mother's difficulty in obtaining positions during this period? mr. oswald. no, sir; she was not disabled. i don't recall any particular length of illness that she had at this time that would not allow her to work. mr. jenner. what was the reason, if you recall, she was having difficulty in obtaining work, or was there any particular reason? mr. oswald. none that i recall, sir. no particular reason i can recall. mr. jenner. your brother lee was living at home during this time? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. was he working after school, or making any effort to earn some money? mr. oswald. no, sir; he was not. he might have on occasion mowed somebody's lawn or something like that, where he would have a little spending money, or something. but nothing frequently, consistently. mr. jenner. i see. proceeding with you, at the end of the school year ' -' --i assume you continued working there the summer of ' ? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and did you reenter school that fall? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i did. mr. jenner. where? mr. oswald. arlington heights high school. representative ford. may i ask a question? during this -year period that you worked for the a&p, mr. oswald, were you the principal source of income for your mother, lee, and yourself? mr. oswald. mother was working. whether or not i was making more than she was at that time, i do not know. representative ford. she was working spasmodically or regularly during this period? mr. oswald. i believe almost regularly, very little off. i cannot recall right now what she was doing. i think perhaps during this period she was selling insurance. representative ford. while she was in this occupation, who took care of lee? mr. oswald. well, no one did. lee was, of course, at school. when he returned home from school in the afternoon, he managed for himself, until i or my mother returned home from work. representative ford. he was or ? mr. mckenzie. eleven years old. representative ford. thank you. mr. jenner. i think representative ford's question may have been induced by the fact you said that at about this time of which we are speaking your mother was having trouble retaining her position or obtaining positions. i assumed from that, perhaps incorrectly, that there were gaps, there were times when she was not employed, and, therefore, did need you to remain out of school to help. is that a fair statement? mr. oswald. i would say that is a fair statement and generally so. a little more comes to mind there. i believe, perhaps, that she might have been selling insurance. i think she was acting at that time as what you would call a hostess or a welcoming party for the city of fort worth. in other words, she went out and met new people coming into fort worth--something along that line. and apparently it wasn't very much money, very little. and i think during this period also she was trying to locate other types of work that would perhaps earn her more. i believe that would be more accurate to what i really had in mind, there. mr. jenner. but during all of the period, from the divorce of your mother and mr. ekdahl, proceeding from that time forward, she again returned to what she had been doing prior to the marriage--that is, working to sustain the family? mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is correct. mr. jenner. and if i may use the expression you did, lee was left to shift for himself during the daytime, get to school, get back to school, and be around until either you boys returned to the home or your mother returned to the home? mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is correct. mr. jenner. because he didn't have anybody particularly assigned or who undertook to care for him? mr. oswald. no, sir. i might say you mentioned "you boys." of course at this time john was in the coast guard, so it was either myself or my mother. mr. jenner. and particularly during the year you were employed at the a&p, and your mother was also employed, then certainly during that period there was no one even available to take care of him, is that correct? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. what were your hours? mr. oswald. my hours varied somewhat. we had different types of shifts for different days. normally perhaps from to or o'clock, and on the weekends--stock day was wednesday, when all shipments came in, to restock the store. that was wednesday and saturday. usually they were long days. i worked from o'clock to o'clock or o'clock at night. and on saturdays practically always after the store was closed, we did the cleanup, and rewaxing the floors and sometimes it was anywhere from to : at night, and perhaps even o'clock before i was home. mr. dulles. did lee's school at that time keep him until about o'clock, do you know? mr. oswald. i believe, sir, that would be--he was, of course, at that time, attending west ridglea elementary school. i believe it would be about o'clock, because i believe high school at that time--we were getting out at : . and i believe the elementary school was either minutes or an hour earlier. mr. jenner. you attended arlington heights high school for the school year ' -' ? mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is correct. mr. jenner. and what about the year ' -' ? mr. oswald. july i joined the marine corps. mr. jenner. and in july , when you joined the marine corps, what do you recall was your status as far as your schooling was concerned? mr. oswald. i completed my junior year in high school. mr. dulles. did you enlist for years? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and your brother was still in the coast guard? mr. oswald. yes, sir; he was still in the coast guard at that time. mr. jenner. and, at that time, i take it your brother lee was attending arlington heights high school? that would be ? mr. oswald. just a minute, please. in lee was years old. he would be attending w. c. stripling junior high school then. mr. jenner. i see. for the school year - ? mr. oswald. yes, sir. junior high school there was from the seventh to the ninth grades. and as soon as he was through with his sixth year, he started attending w. c. stripling junior high school. mr. jenner. as soon as he finished the sixth year at ridglea elementary school, he entered w. c. stripling high school, as a seventh grader? mr. oswald. yes, sir--junior high school. mr. jenner. now, the condition that you described as to lee shifting for himself during the daytime, when your mother was away working and you were away working, and your brother john was in the coast guard, continued, i take it, when he began attendance and while he was attending w. c. stripling junior high school? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. was there a discussion, a family discussion when you enlisted in the marines, or prior to your enlisting in the marines, as to your doing so, and quitting high school? mr. oswald. no, sir; there was not. mr. jenner. that was of your own volition? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. did you talk to your mother in advance about it? mr. oswald. no, sir. mr. jenner. not at all? mr. oswald. no, sir. mr. jenner. had anything preceded in the way of family discussion of your brother john's entry into the coast guard? mr. oswald. i feel like it was, sir. he had previously---- mr. jenner. this is your best recollection? mr. oswald. yes, sir. he had previously, before going into the coast guard, joined the marine corps reserve, the base of which was, at that time, at grand prairie, tex. i believe it was howitzer, something like that. and he was perhaps in that or months before he joined the coast guard. when it came up about the coast guard, i believe we all talked about it, or at least he talked to lee about it in front of me. mr. jenner. you used an expression, "i believe we talked about it." is it your recollection that you did? mr. oswald. yes, sir. nothing that i remember particular about that. mr. jenner. what was the character of the discussion, mr. oswald? you had a family in which your mother was having some difficulty supporting you boys? you had a brother who needed to be supported. was there any discussion--or was there a discussion of what would happen in the event that first john and then you joined the service? mr. oswald. i believe reflecting on what mother said to me when i made my decision to join the marine corps was that perhaps it was the best thing, where i would not be a burden to her to that extent, and also perhaps be able to help her when she needed help. and i think this would be in line with what was said when john left for the coast guard, that this would be, of course, one less for her to take care of at the house, to feed and to clothe, and so forth. and it would relieve her of her responsibility along that line--it would help her, because of the limited amount of funds that she had coming in. mr. jenner. did you ever make an allotment of any portion of your service pay to your mother? mr. oswald. no, sir; i did not. mr. jenner. to your knowledge, did john? mr. oswald. no, sir; he did not. mr. jenner. you were single at this time? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. your brother john was? mr. oswald. ? mr. jenner. when he entered the coast guard. mr. oswald. when he entered the coast guard he was single. mr. jenner. did he marry while he was in the service? mr. oswald. yes, sir; he did. mr. jenner. now, was he in the coast guard when he married? mr. oswald. yes, sir; he was. mr. jenner. i take it he did leave the coast guard. mr. oswald. yes, sir; he has. mr. jenner. and did he enter into military service when he left the coast guard? mr. oswald. yes, sir; he did. he transferred from the coast guard into the u.s. air force. mr. jenner. and when was that? mr. oswald. i believe this to be around . i believe it would be accurate to say in . i do recall a letter from john to the extent that he lost a stripe when he transferred from one service to the other, and i believe this letter came to me when i was in korea, which was and early ' . i believe it was . mr. jenner. when you were in korea, did you say? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. when did you say, if you did, that your brother john married? do you recall the year? mr. oswald. i believe this would be late or ' . mr. jenner. that was during the period you were working at the a&p? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and where was he stationed at that time? mr. oswald. new york city. mr. jenner. staten island, i guess. i would like to ask some questions about that later on, but i prefer now to return to this. you enlisted in the marines, then, in the summer of . mr. oswald. july , . mr. jenner. would you give us in very short compass your military career? mr. oswald. i went to boot camp at san diego, calif., and from san diego i went to combat training at camp pendleton, calif. when i left camp pendleton, i was transferred from the infantry into the marine air wing. i went to jacksonville, fla. to a preparatory school down there in marine aviation--more or less to determine your ability and what your strong points were, and what field you would be best qualified in the aviation division. from jacksonville, fla., i went into millington, tenn., right outside of memphis, tenn., a navy school, where for approximately months i attended metalsmith school. from memphis, tenn., or millington, tenn., i went to miami, fla. for approximately months. i was not in school any longer. i was on the job. and from miami, i was sent overseas to korea. mr. jenner. and how long were you overseas? mr. oswald. approximately months, sir. mr. jenner. from when to when? mr. oswald. i reported to santa ana, calif. in january or february of . mr. jenner. and you were discharged from the marines---- mr. oswald. july of . mr. jenner. so you had a full years in the marines. mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is correct. mr. jenner. during that -year period, what contact did you have with the members of your family, and with particular reference, if you can give that first, with your brother lee--his writing you, you writing him? mr. oswald. yes, sir; we were corresponding infrequently, i would say--not very many letters between i and lee direct when i was in the service, especially the first part of my tour in the service. in , after traveling from camp pendleton, calif., to jacksonville, fla., i did have a -day leave. they were in new york city at that time. mr. jenner. this was then some time in , i take it? mr. oswald. no, sir-- . mr. jenner. ? mr. oswald. yes, sir. this was---- mr. jenner. you mean your mother and lee--that is the period of time they were in new york city? mr. oswald. that's correct. mr. jenner. living there. mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. did you see them? mr. oswald. no, sir; not at that time. i spent my leave in fort worth, because i did not feel i had enough time to travel to new york and down to jacksonville, fla. after completing metalsmith school at millington, tenn., i took a -day leave. mr. jenner. fix the time. mr. oswald. this was july or august of . i had my orders to go to miami, fla. i took a -day leave and left millington, tenn., by car and came to new york city and spent days in new york with lee, mother, john, and his family. mr. jenner. where did you stay? mr. oswald. at mother's apartment, with lee, in the bronx some place--i do not recall the address. mr. jenner. what, if anything, did you learn at that time regarding lee's attendance or nonattendance in school? mr. oswald. nothing on that, sir. this was in the summer time. lee, of course, was home and not supposed to be in school. and i do not think anything was brought up that i recall about whether or not lee had been attending school regularly or not. mr. mckenzie. can we go off the record? mr. jenner. yes. (discussion off the record.) mr. dulles. back on the record. mr. jenner. referring to the -day leave in new york city, did you spend time with your brother lee? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. your mother was working during that period of time, was she not? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. in spending time with him, did you take him around, or accompany him, visiting various places in new york city? mr. oswald. he took me around, sir. mr. jenner. did you have occasion during that period to take any photographs, snapshots, of lee? mr. oswald. i certainly can identify the one appearing in life--yes, sir; i did. mr. jenner. just hold your answers right in this area exactly to my questions. mr. oswald. i'm sorry. mr. jenner. were these taken with your camera, or was it a camera that your mother or brother owned or had? mr. oswald. this was my camera. mr. dulles. what do these questions refer to? do they refer to the pictures in life? mr. jenner. well, i really did not want to refer to that at the moment. do you remember any of the places at which you took snapshots of lee during this -day leave? mr. oswald. the bronx zoo i believe was about the only time i can recall taking any pictures of him. mr. jenner. i am at liberty to advise you, mr. oswald, that when your mother testified before the commission she did produce a number of photographs, snapshots, and otherwise, among which was a snapshot of your brother, lee, taken at the new york zoo--that she testified was taken at the new york zoo. is that the incident in which you took the photograph of your brother lee, as far as you know? mr. oswald. you say the new york zoo, sir. as far as i know there is just one zoo up there referred to as the bronx zoo. i do recall, and i still have the picture that i took of lee at the bronx zoo. i certainly feel that perhaps either i sent copies of it to mother, or to lee after i had the film developed. mr. jenner. mr. chairman, may i go off the record a moment? (discussion off the record.) mr. dulles. back on the record. mr. jenner. for the purpose of the record, i have before me the february , , issue of life magazine, on pp. -a, -b, and of which there appear a number of photographs. i think it would be well if we gave this spread page an exhibit number. and since it really consists of two separate pages--the next exhibit numbers are what? mr. liebeler. and . mr. jenner. we will mark -b as and page as . (the material referred to was marked commission exhibits nos. and , respectively, for identification.) mr. mckenzie. mr. jenner--the only thing you are offering to the commission at this time as i understand it are the pictures that appear on those two pages and not the text. mr. jenner. that's correct, sir. directing your attention to page , identified as commission exhibit , there is a picture of a young boy and the background looks like it might be taken in a zoo. you mentioned that you had taken a snapshot of your brother on this -day leave. could you examine that and see if you can identify that as being the snapshot you took? mr. oswald. yes, sir, i do so identify that picture. that was taken at the bronx zoo--a picture of lee harvey oswald, taken during my -day leave in new york city in , approximately july or august of . mr. jenner. was school in session at that time? mr. oswald. no, sir, school was not in session at that time. this was during the summer months. mr. jenner. so there was no obligation on the part of your brother to have been in school at this particular time? mr. oswald. that's correct, sir. mr. jenner. now, appearing immediately above that snapshot is a snapshot or a photograph, a picture of two boys. do you recognize either or both of those children? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i do. i recognize the young boy standing, and i recognize him to be lee harvey oswald. mr. jenner. and who is the boy appearing lower in that photograph? mr. oswald. i do not recognize him, sir. mr. jenner. this is in the upper right hand corner of commission exhibit . appearing immediately to the left--but before i proceed to that, are you able to identify that sufficiently to indicate to us the age of your brother at the time that picture was taken? mr. oswald. i would say he was approximately or years old at that time. mr. jenner. and at this time he was residing where? mr. oswald. if he was years old at the time the photograph was taken, he was residing in fort worth, tex. if he was years old, he would be residing in new york city. mr. jenner. to the left appears another photograph of a young man in a striped shirt, a striped t-shirt. do you observe that? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i do. mr. jenner. it is apparently a blowup from a group picture. who is that? mr. oswald. i recognize him to be my brother, lee harvey oswald. mr. jenner. and do you recognize the clothing, have you seen him in that clothing before? mr. oswald. not that i recall. the tennis shoes look familiar. mr. jenner. and are you able to make out the age of your brother at the time this picture was taken? mr. oswald. i would say approximately or years old. mr. jenner. so if it were at age , he would have been residing where? mr. oswald. in fort worth, tex. mr. jenner. and you have already given the age. to the left of that picture is another photograph or apparently a snapshot. i notice that there are part of some persons behind the central figure. do you recognize the figure in that photograph? mr. oswald. yes; i do. mr. jenner. who is it? mr. oswald. i recognize it to be lee harvey oswald. mr. jenner. at what age? mr. oswald. seven or eight years old. mr. jenner. and assuming age , where was he residing at that time? mr. oswald. this would be--the year when he was would be or . he would be residing in fort worth, tex. mr. jenner. and if he were , he still would be residing in fort worth, tex. mr. oswald. that's correct, sir. mr. jenner. to the left of that picture is a picture of--i don't know whether that is one snapshot or two. mr. oswald. it is one, sir. mr. jenner. showing three persons, three children. are you able to identify all three? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i am. mr. jenner. would you please identify and give the ages? mr. oswald. left to right, i identify myself at the age of . mr. jenner. with the sailor hat on? mr. oswald. with the sailor hat on, right. in the center i identify it to be lee harvey oswald at the age of . on the far right i identify john edward pic at the age of . mr. jenner. and you boys were residing where at that time? mr. oswald. at dallas, tex., on victor street. that was taken right outside, at the side of the house. mr. jenner. do you recall the circumstances under which the picture was taken? mr. oswald. no, sir; other than we wanted to take some pictures. mr. jenner. your present recollection is who took the picture? mr. oswald. my mother. mr. jenner. in the background is what? mr. oswald. the house that we lived in on victor street. mr. jenner. there is a spread picture at the bottom of the double page. are you familiar with the area which is shown in that picture? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i am. mr. jenner. what is that area? mr. oswald. that is on the playground of ridglea west elementary school. mr. jenner. and do you recognize any of the persons shown in that reproduction? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i do. mr. jenner. would you identify those, if any, you so recognize? mr. oswald. the only person i recognize in this photograph is this young man right here--i do not recall his name--i believe his name was donald. he lived right around the corner from us. mr. jenner. mr. oswald, i hand you a brush pen. would you indicate by an arrow the person to whom you made reference? thank you. would you do the same on the picture identified in the extreme upper right hand corner on exhibit . now, i notice on the spread picture at the bottom of the page, which was identified as a schoolmate, that there is to the left of that picture a picture with an imprinted arrow. do you recognize the person to whom the arrow is pointing? mr. oswald. no, sir; i do not. mr. jenner. are you able to say whether that is or is not your brother lee? mr. oswald. no, sir; from this picture, i cannot determine if it is lee or not. mr. jenner. are you able to see it clearly enough to say that it is not? mr. oswald. no, sir; i am not able to see it clearly enough to make a positive statement one way or the other. it appears to be a little fuzzy. mr. jenner. do you have an opinion as to whether it is or not? mr. oswald. no, sir; i do not. mr. jenner. you just do not recognize it? mr. oswald. i just do not recognize it. mr. jenner. all right. now on page -a, which we will mark as commission exhibit no. --do you recognize that photograph depicted on that page? (the material referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. oswald. yes, sir; i do. mr. jenner. who is it? mr. oswald. i recognize lee harvey oswald. mr. jenner. have you seen the original of that reproduction? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i most certainly have. i might add that i wore that same baby suit. mr. jenner. that is shown in that picture? mr. oswald. yes, sir. and john edward did, too. mr. jenner. now, turning to pages and , which we will have marked as commission exhibit , so far as page is concerned, and page marked as . (the material referred to was marked respectively commission exhibits nos. and for identification.) mr. jenner. spread across page and partially on page is a photograph, or a reproduction of a photograph. do you recognize any of the persons depicted on that spread page? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and do you recognize more than one person? mr. oswald. no, sir; i do not. mr. jenner. and which one do you recognize? mr. oswald. in the foreground on the left-hand side, on page , i recognize that to be lee harvey oswald. mr. jenner. is that the boy with the v-shaped design on his sweater or t-shirt, with his hand on his chest? mr. oswald. yes sir; that is correct. mr. jenner. would you identify that by an arrow. are you able to, in looking at that--to tell at what age that was taken, and where? mr. oswald. i would say approximately years old. i cannot recognize the classroom there. at lee would have been---- mr. jenner. he was in new york city, was he not? mr. oswald. , yes, sir. mr. jenner. on page , which we will mark as commission exhibit , there is a photograph or reproduction of a photograph in the lower right-hand corner. (the material referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. jenner. do you recognize anyone in that reproduction? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i do. mr. jenner. do you recognize both people? mr. oswald. no, sir; i do not. mr. jenner. would you indicate the person you recognize? mr. oswald. i recognize the person on the left-hand side of this photograph. mr. jenner. that is the man? mr. oswald. yes, sir. i recognize him to be lee harvey oswald. mr. jenner. at about what age? mr. oswald. since i am aware of where this picture was taken, at the age of . mr. jenner. would you elaborate---- mr. oswald. i am aware where this picture was taken. this is in arlington heights high school. i believe this exhibit right behind him in the background was on the third floor of arlington heights high school. mr. jenner. and that was taken at the high school? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and he was of what age at that time? mr. oswald. . mr. jenner. well, it is pretty clear, since there is a gentleman and a lady in this picture, the only two persons indicated, and you have identified your brother--would you still, however, put a arrow pointing to your brother. thank you. turning to page -a, which is commission exhibit , there are two pictures reproduced in the lower right-hand corner. (the material referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. jenner. do you recognize those? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i do. mr. jenner. and would you state what they are? mr. oswald. both pictures are pictures of lee harvey oswald. mr. jenner. and he appears to be in military garb. were those taken when he was in the marines? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. by the way, did you see him in his service uniform at any time? mr. oswald. no, sir; i did not. mr. jenner. but you do recognize these pictures as depicting your brother? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. on pages and of life magazine, which will be commission exhibits and , there is a spread picture. (the material referred to was marked commission exhibit nos. and , respectively, for identification.) mr. jenner. do you recognize any of the persons depicted in that spread picture? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i do, but only one. mr. jenner. identify the one you recognize, and locate it in the picture. mr. oswald. i recognize lee harvey oswald being in the foreground of the picture, approximately in the center of the picture. mr. jenner. would you identify him with this brush pencil? then on exhibit , which is page -b of this issue of life magazine, there appears at the bottom a reproduction of identity cards. i direct your attention to the left-hand identity card upon which appears a photograph, a reproduction of a photograph. do you recognize that? mr. oswald. i would have to say that he appears heavier, his face is fuller, he has more hair on his head, but the eyes and the nose and the mouth are lee harvey oswald's. i had not studied that picture before. but he does seem to be quite fullfaced, if that is the terminology to use there, and much more hair on his head--there again in relation to the hair i am assuming here this photograph of lee was taken after he returned from russia. mr. jenner. i would rather not have you assume anything at the moment. do you identify that as a reproduction of a picture of your brother? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i do. mr. jenner. are you acquainted with--were you at the time acquainted with the circumstances under which there was issued or purported to be issued a selective service system classification card in the name of alek james hidell? mr. oswald. no, sir; i was not. mr. jenner. and did you ever have a discussion with your brother with respect to his use, if he did, of the name alek james hidell, a. j. hidell, or any combination of that, in which the surname hidell was employed? mr. oswald. no, sir; i did not. and if i may say, at no time have i ever known him to use any other name than lee harvey oswald. mr. jenner. i take it, then, you are unacquainted with any circumstances under which he employed, if he did employ at any time, the surname hidell? mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. or any other alias? mr. oswald. that's correct, sir. mr. jenner. did you ever know him to employ an alias? mr. oswald. no, i had not. mr. jenner. have you ever employed one? mr. oswald. off the record, please. mr. jenner. i will withdraw that question. mr. oswald. this is what it amounts to. mr. mckenzie. let me state this for the purposes of the record. in order to avoid publicity or avoid newsmen, we did travel to friendship airport from dallas, texas, yesterday evening, february th, and robert oswald traveled under the name of f. m. johnson. mr. dulles. off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. dulles. back on the record. mr. jenner. on the following page, which is page , commission exhibit , is a photograph, reproduction of a photograph in the lower right-hand corner. (the material referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. jenner. you recognize the person depicted in that photograph? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i do. mr. jenner. would you identify them? mr. oswald. i recognize the two people in the photograph--the woman being mrs. marina oswald, and the man being lee harvey oswald. mr. jenner. have you ever seen that picture before? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i believe i have. mr. jenner. did you see it prior to november , ? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i believe i did, and the reason why i say i believe--i believe i either have a copy of this photograph myself, or one very, very similar to it. mr. jenner. how did you come into the possession of the photograph? mr. oswald. lee had sent it to me from russia, showed me pictures of him and his wife on their wedding day in april, . i received the photographs, though, in approximately may, . mr. jenner. do you still have those photographs in your possession? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i do. if i may say, i did turn over i believe four photographs that lee had sent me from russia, and i believe in all four photographs lee and marina were in them. and i turned these over to mr. jim h. martin. mr. jenner. but they are your personal property. mr. oswald. yes, sir; they are. mr. jenner. i want to get into that period of time when you were in correspondence with your brother at a later moment. turning now to page , which is commission exhibit , in the lower left-hand corner of that is a reproduction, or what purports to be a reproduction of a photograph. (the material referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. jenner. do you recognize either of the two persons depicted in that photograph? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i recognize the man on the right with the piece of paper in his hand, and a notebook i believe under his left arm, to be lee harvey oswald. mr. jenner. do you recognize the other man who is partially shown in that photograph? mr. oswald. no, sir; i do not. mr. jenner. did you see that photograph at any time prior to november , ? mr. oswald. no, sir; i had not. mr. jenner. and on page , which is commission exhibit no. , there are two photographs, one showing a lady and a child, in the upper right-hand corner. (the material referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. jenner. directing your attention to that picture first, do you recognize either of the persons shown in that photograph? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i do. i recognize both persons. mr. jenner. would you identify them, please? mr. oswald. the child is june lee oswald, and the woman is mrs. marina oswald. mr. jenner. and june oswald is your brother's child? mr. oswald. that's correct, sir. mr. jenner. had you seen that photograph at any time prior to november , ? mr. oswald. no, sir; i had not. mr. jenner. in the lower right-hand corner is a photograph of a man holding a firearm or rifle with a pistol on his right hip and some papers of some kind in--he is holding the rifle in his left hand, the papers in his right hand. do you recognize the person depicted in that photograph? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i do. i recognize him to be my brother, lee harvey oswald. mr. jenner. had you seen that photograph at any time prior to november , ? mr. oswald. no, sir; i had not. mr. jenner. have you seen the photograph of which that is a reproduction since november , ? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i have. mr. jenner. under what circumstances? mr. oswald. at the inn of the six flags at arlington. tex., approximately november , , in the presence of u.s. secret service and marina oswald and myself. mr. dulles. your mother was not there then? mr. oswald. she was there at the time, but i do not believe she was in the room when this photograph was shown. mr. jenner. mr. chairman, i offer in evidence as commission exhibits through the pages of the issue of life magazine i have identified that bear those exhibit numbers. mr. dulles. yes. i understand counsel for mr. oswald has pointed out that i believe you are offering only the photographs and not the text? mr. jenner. thank you, sir. may i amend my offer. i offer in evidence the reproduction of photographs which the witness has identified that appear on commission exhibits through . mr. dulles. they may be accepted. (the portion of the documents heretofore marked commission exhibits nos. through for identification were received in evidence.) mr. jenner. i do not offer any of the text or any other portions of those pages. mr. dulles. that is so noted. mr. jenner. are there any other events or happenings or circumstances during this -day period in new york city that come to your mind? you have told of the incident of taking the photograph which was identified. you told of visiting various places in new york city and being with your brother lee. was it a good deal during this -day period? mr. oswald. yes, sir; practically every day, and practically every night, with two exceptions at night, where my brother john fixed me up with a blind date for one night only--no, i take that back. it would be just one night lee was not with me, and that would be on the night i had a blind date with a girl from new york city, with my brother john and his wife. mr. jenner. did you and your brother lee visit your brother john's home during this -day stay? mr. oswald. no, sir, we did not. mr. jenner. did you have any discussion with your brother lee--put it this way--did you become aware during this -day period as to whether your mother and brother had stayed with your brother john at any time during their new york visit? mr. oswald. yes, sir. it was my understanding that when they first arrived in new york for a brief period they stayed together. mr. jenner. was there any discussion with you as to why they left the home of your brother john? mr. oswald. no, sir; not to any extent--no, sir, no discussion. mr. jenner. no discussion of any difficulties or any incidents that had arisen while they were living with your brother john's family? mr. oswald. no, sir. mr. jenner. that induced or had a bearing upon leaving and taking an apartment in the bronx? mr. oswald. i do not know of any discussion or any difficulty that was mentioned to me, but i understand there was some difficulty. mr. jenner. please, mr. oswald--the subject was not discussed with you during the -day period you were on leave? mr. oswald. that's correct, sir. mr. jenner. was it discussed with you at any time prior to november , ? mr. oswald. no, sir; it was not. mr. jenner. was there any discussion on the subject of your brother's progress in schooling in new york city? mr. oswald. no, sir; there was not. mr. jenner. was the subject of his attendance at school, whether the attendance was good or bad--was school discussed at all, as you recall? mr. oswald. no, sir; not to my recollection. mr. jenner. and as a layman, and acquainted with your brother, what was your impression? give us your present impression of your brother's state of mind during that -day period. was he normal and happy and friendly? mr. oswald. he was very normal. he did not appear to be unhappy. he was quite happy to see me. we spent a good deal of time together during that -day visit. at no time did he act abnormally. mr. jenner. did he complain to you about school? mr. oswald. no, sir; he did not. mr. jenner. in general did he complain about anything--any special gripes? mr. oswald. none that i recall, sir. mr. jenner. do you recall that as being a happy -day visit on your -day leave in new york city? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. both you and your brother? mr. oswald. yes, sir; that's correct. mr. jenner. did you spend time with your mother as well as your brother lee during the -day period? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i did. mr. jenner. that would be when--the evenings and on sunday? mr. oswald. generally in the evenings. that is the way i recall it. mr. jenner. you and your brother lee and your mother--did you do any visiting during the evening, movies, any entertainment, go out? mr. oswald. yes, sir; lee and i did. mother did not join us. mr. jenner. what was your impression of your mother's state of mind and well-being and her general feeling while you were there during that -day period? mr. oswald. may i have that again, please? (the reporter read the pending question.) mr. oswald. my impression of my mother at that time was that she was still having a little difficulty making enough money to have the things that she wanted to have, i should say. but generally her health was good, and nothing that i recall comes to mind that would indicate that there was any difficulty between her and lee. they seemed to be getting along quite well. mr. jenner. your impression during the -day period, i take it then, was that the relationship between your mother and lee was friendly, was it? mr. oswald. yes, sir; that's correct. mr. jenner. were there any arguments during the time you were there between them? mr. oswald. yes, sir; there were. mr. jenner. did he at any time during that period--was he discourteous to his mother? mr. oswald. if i may in my own words here, sir---- mr. jenner. yes, sir. mr. oswald. the word "discourteous"--my mother did not wish us to go to certain places--i say certain places--i do not recall the places. she just did not want us going, inasmuch as we were going during the day. i wanted to see as much of new york as i could while i was there. and i recall that lee and mother and i had something of an argument in reference to staying away from the house during the day so long, and so forth. and it was not her wish that we do that. and if this was being discourteous--that is why i qualify that. mr. jenner. nothing extraordinary. mr. oswald. no, sir. mr. jenner. now, your leave terminated. you went back to florida, and you eventually wound up in korea. mr. oswald. that's correct, sir. mr. dulles. could i ask a question before we leave the new york period? while you were there, was there any discussion about these absences from school which i think took place just the months before you were there--although i am not absolutely clear on that. it seems to me as i understand it your mother and lee arrived in the bronx area around september of ' , i think it was, and this was in the summer of ' that you visited them there, is that correct? mr. oswald. that's correct, sir. mr. dulles. so that according to what i recall--and this may not be accurate--what is referred to as the truancy, the days absence from school, had occurred some time prior to your visit. maybe you do not recall that. that did not come up at all? mr. oswald. no; it did not come up at all. mr. dulles. did anything come up about a psychiatric examination? mr. oswald. no, sir; it did not. representative ford. there was no mention of the farm? mr. oswald. no, sir. mr. dulles. so the psychiatric examination was not mentioned in your presence? mr. oswald. no, sir. mr. jenner. it had taken place i think in may of . mr. oswald. if i may, sir--mother did mention that lee had appeared before a judge, and she said it was a negro judge. i asked why, and she said because he had been absent from school too long, no specific dates or length of time was mentioned, and that they were stricter in new york about that than in texas. representative ford. did this bother her, disturb her? did she indicate the reaction to that? mr. oswald. no, sir--at that time i do not recall any reaction that she had, or any comment she made about it. she just very briefly stated that he had appeared before this negro judge in new york city, and just what i previously related about it. that was the only thing she said about it. representative ford. she did not mention a man named carro? mr. oswald. no, sir; nobody's name was mentioned, not even the judge's name. mr. jenner. to the best of your present recollection, that is about all that occurred in the way of conversation respecting some possible truancy? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. that is all you now can recall. mr. oswald. yes, sir; that's correct. mr. jenner. you were mustered out of the marines in july of . mr. oswald. that's correct, sir. mr. jenner. did you return--well, when you were mustered out, where did you go? mr. oswald. fort worth, tex. mr. jenner. and where were your mother and brother living at that time? mr. oswald. in new orleans, la. mr. jenner. were you still single? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. would you explain why you went to fort worth, tex., rather than to new orleans? mr. oswald. i considered fort worth, tex., my home. i wanted to go there. i had quite a few friends. i wanted to find a job in fort worth, tex. and that is where i wanted to live. mr. jenner. and you did undertake residence there? mr. oswald. i did, sir. mr. jenner. have you continued to be a resident of fort worth, tex., ever since? mr. oswald. no, sir, i have not. mr. jenner. indicate in short compass where you have resided since you got out of the service? mr. oswald. from i resided in fort worth, tex., until march of . from march of until september , i resided in malvern, ark. and from september until present date i have resided in denton, tex. mr. jenner. did you visit your mother and your brother in new orleans when you returned from the service in july of ? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i did. i did not--yes, sir, it was in july when i made my first trip from fort worth, tex., to new orleans, la. i had purchased a car the second day i was home from the service, a chevrolet, and i drove it on the third day or the second night to new orleans, la. mr. jenner. were your quarters in a hotel, or did you join your brother and mother? mr. oswald. i joined my mother and brother. mr. jenner. how long did you stay in new orleans on that trip? mr. oswald. approximately week. mr. jenner. and you lived with your mother and brother? mr. oswald. that's correct. mr. jenner. that was in july of ? mr. oswald. yes, sir; that's correct. mr. jenner. he was not in school at that time. mr. oswald. no, sir; he was not. mr. jenner. now, how did you find your brother, as to the state of health and state of mind? mr. oswald. he seemed to be the same to me. he had joined at that time--no, sir--he had not at that time been in the civil air patrol. at that time lee was working i believe for an export firm there in new orleans. i do not know the name of it. i do not believe i ever heard the name of it. i might have. mother was also working at that time. mr. jenner. had you seen your brother in the interim--that is the interim between the -day leave in new york city and your return from korea in july of ? mr. oswald. there was one leave, or perhaps it was this time in that lee was in the civil air patrol there in new orleans, because i remember his uniform that he had. and we went out to lunch on a sunday afternoon. and he had his uniform on--mother, he, and i. mr. mckenzie. robert, he asked you this--if between the time you went to new york city and left there, and the time you went to korea and came back, and you were mustered out of the marine corps, did you see your brother at any time during that period of time? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i recall now. leaving miami, fla., in --january or february--i took another -day leave, i believe it was, and i traveled to new orleans first, where mother and lee was, and at this time he was in the civil air patrol. and i spent or days there in new orleans. mr. jenner. you stayed with your mother and brother? mr. oswald. yes; i did. mr. dulles. when you come to a good place, mr. jenner, we will stop for minutes. mr. jenner. the commission's convenience is my convenience. representative boggs. may i ask one or two questions. your brother john--is he alive? mr. oswald. yes, sir. representative boggs. where is he? mr. oswald. san antonio, tex., in the u.s. air force. mr. dulles. he is a half brother. representative boggs. he is your older brother? mr. oswald. yes, sir. representative boggs. how old is he? mr. oswald. he is now. representative boggs. you never had any problems in school or in the marine corps, did you--i mean serious problems? mr. oswald. no, sir; no serious problems. representative boggs. you always had problems. but you never were in any trouble? mr. oswald. i have never been in any serious trouble in my life. representative boggs. ever been arrested? mr. oswald. no, sir. the only time i was on the inside of a jail was one time in hazel, tex., when i refused to sign a traffic ticket on the spot and i requested to be taken to the courthouse. representative boggs. did you ever have any psychiatric mental troubles? mr. oswald. no, sir. representative boggs. did you consider your brother a normal human being? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i most certainly did. representative boggs. in every way? mr. oswald. in every way. representative boggs. did he ever give you any indications of being--did he ever discuss with you such things as shooting at general walker? mr. oswald. no, sir. mr. mckenzie. in order to clear something up, mr. boggs, let me ask one question, if i may, for the record. mr. dulles. please. do you want this on the record or off? mr. mckenzie. robert, from the time that your brother, lee harvey oswald came back from russia, when was this? mr. oswald. this was in june . mr. mckenzie. and then when was the next time that you saw him after he came to your home in fort worth, tex., in june of ? mr. dulles. just after he returned from russia? mr. mckenzie. yes. mr. oswald. i saw him on a number of occasions there in fort worth, tex., after he moved out of my residence to mother's, from mother's apartment to his apartment with marina, and the children, and when they moved to dallas, tex., that was the last time i saw him. mr. mckenzie. when did he move to dallas, tex. mr. oswald. this was approximately october . mr. mckenzie. all right, from the time of october , when was--from then when was the next time you saw him? mr. oswald. on november , . mr. mckenzie. where was that? mr. oswald. at the dallas county jail or dallas city jail. mr. mckenzie. it was the dallas city jail. mr. oswald. dallas city jail. mr. mckenzie. what were those circumstances? were you in a room with him or were you talking to him through a partition or over a telephone or what, explain that to the commission, if you will? mr. oswald. i was talking to him over a telephone through a glass window, and he was on the locked side. mr. mckenzie. so for a period of over a year from the time he left fort worth and moved to dallas, tex., you did not see him, is that correct? mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. mckenzie. all right representative boggs. when you last saw him was october , is that what you said? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. mckenzie. and you had previously seen him when he resided in your home for how long a period of time? mr. oswald. approximately to weeks. mr. dulles. i imagine this would be covered later but it fits in. i think you are quite right. i have a question or two. representative boggs. i have to go back to the house in a few minutes. mr. dulles. go right ahead. ask him any questions you wish to. representative boggs. at the time he resided in your home these or weeks were your relations with him cordial or friendly? mr. oswald. it was cordial, yes, more or less like he had not been to russia. we were just together again. representative boggs. did you have any political discussions with him at any time? mr. oswald. no, sir; i did not. representative boggs. he never discussed political matters with you? mr. oswald. no, sir; he did not. i would say we had a tacit agreement it was never brought up. representative boggs. by tacit, do you mean that---- mr. oswald. an unspoken agreement that we never would discuss it. representative boggs. i understand. had you arrived at this agreement because on previous occasions you had disagreed about political matters? mr. oswald. no, sir; that was not the reason. we just never discussed politics. representative boggs. did you have any interest in political affairs, i mean---- mr. oswald. a little bit, sir. representative boggs. i mean from a philosophical point of view? mr. oswald. my own interest in politics from a philosophical point of view would be that i considered myself a conservative, a born conservative. certainly agreed percent with the u.s. constitution and the laws that are set forth, and it is my upbringing, it is what i always believed in and i will always believe in it. representative ford. did you say that was your mother's philosophy, too? mr. mckenzie. no, sir; he did not say. mr. oswald. would i say that? representative ford. yes. mr. oswald. i would say--i will tell you, at this present time i feel like perhaps she has been hurt a great deal and perhaps her thinking is being changed at this very moment and at the present time since november d. but prior to that time my opinion would be that she would be of the same opinion that i was. representative ford. that is why you said your attitude was based on your upbringing. mr. oswald. yes, sir. of course, to qualify that my mother didn't actually bring me up too much. the orphan home and the military academy, and i believe there my basic philosophy was formulated. it was a very good school. representative boggs. what military academy was that? mr. oswald. chamberlain hunt military academy at port gibson, miss. representative ford. during the or weeks that lee resided in your home, did he ever indicate why he went to russia? you must have talked about it some. mr. oswald. there again i believe we did more talking through the mails about why he went to russia than we did when he returned from russia. i, of course, wanted to talk to him about this. mr. dulles. you have those letters, i believe. mr. oswald. yes, sir; we have those letters. mr. mckenzie. those letters have already been given to the commission. mr. jenner. we will present them in evidence, i think probably this afternoon. representative boggs. did he ever tell you? mr. oswald. no, sir; not point blank did he ever tell me why he went to russia. representative boggs. did he tell you why he came back? mr. oswald. yes, sir; that he was in--the letters that i have from him while he was in russia would indicate the same thing, that he was very unhappy living in russia and he wanted to return to the united states, which, of course, made me very happy, and i felt like, and tried to look at it from the standpoint that maybe he just sowed some wild oats. he kind of went off to the far end of it, but i believe everyone of us at one time, especially around that age, might have done something or reached out far afield, so to speak, before we came to our senses and returned to a normal life. mr. dulles. did he seem different when he came back from russia, was there a change in the man before and after? mr. oswald. physically? mr. dulles. no, i mean at all--changes, outlook, attitude and general---- mr. oswald. the mental attitude he had from his letters that he wrote me when he first arrived in russia were quite disturbing to me. statements, various statements, i can't quote them word for word, but in the line of--well, he wanted to denounce his citizenship. he was a marxist and he was a communist and he wanted to stay in russia, and so forth. but when he started writing again in --yes, , his letters certainly indicated that he had changed his mind, and that he wanted to return to the united states and start his life as a u.s. citizen. representative boggs. you got to know mrs. oswald when she returned with him? mr. oswald. yes, sir. representative boggs. was the relationship between your family and your wife and mrs. oswald, of course, i realize you had a language barrier, but was it pleasant? mr. oswald. yes, sir. i would describe it as very pleasant. we immediately, my wife and i both, took to marina and june, the baby, at that time, and my wife and i both were just tickled to death, so to speak, for an opportunity to be with somebody like marina and to show her things that she had never seen before in her life. representative boggs. in the time, of course, you had known her ever since she came here, and you have seen her since the assassination of president kennedy, have you had any feeling that she was anything other than a normal housewife? you know there has been speculation that in light of the fact she was born in russia and that she got an exit visa without too much difficulty that maybe she had connections that were not entirely just that of a normal housewife. did you ever have any feeling---- mr. oswald. the only time i had any reservations about marina oswald was on friday, november , until approximately days later. i say during this -day period i was not sure whether or not she had been involved in any of the happenings of that date. i wanted not to believe that she did, but i wanted to be cautious about it. i believe on sunday night, november , in my presence she gave a complete--and freely stated everything up to that time that she was aware of to the u.s. secret service on a tape recorder. and i formulated my opinion then that apparently, and i feel this way now, that she did not have anything to do with that, and she is nothing other than just what she appears to be, just a housewife, having a very difficult time at this time. representative boggs. have you in your own mind reached any conclusions on whether or not your brother killed president kennedy? mr. oswald. based on the circumstantial evidence that has been reported in newspapers and over the radio and television, i would have to say that it appears that he did kill president kennedy. representative boggs. would you, having reached that conclusion under the circumstances that you outlined a moment ago, and having known him all of his life, although not too intimately the last year of his life, would you give us any reason for why he may have done this? mr. oswald. no, sir; i could not. representative boggs. it came as, i would think, a great shock to you? mr. oswald. yes, sir; it certainly did, and i might add that the lee harvey oswald that i knew would not have killed anybody. representative boggs. have you discussed this matter with your stepbrother since it happened? mr. oswald. yes, sir. representative boggs. this, as i understand, mr. counsel, is hearsay but we are just trying to establish---- mr. mckenzie. mr. boggs, in order that the record be absolutely clear, you were not here when we commenced this morning due to your duties at the house, let me state this for the purpose of the record and yourself and the entire commission, you ask robert oswald any question that you want to ask him. representative boggs. thank you very much. mr. mckenzie. and furthermore, any information we have or any information we can get from any source will likewise be turned over to the federal bureau of investigation or to this commission or to any other investigative agency, because---- representative boggs. the mandate that we are operating under is that we discover the truth. mr. mckenzie. i can assure you, sir, that the main reason that we are here, and i speak for robert oswald, is to see that the truth is given fully, and developed as fully as possible, to give any light to this tragic event. representative boggs. i just have one or two other questions. mr. oswald. i believe your last question was whether or not---- representative boggs. i am frankly reluctant to ask you the question, but you and your brother john must have speculated about how this event could have happened, did you not? mr. oswald. yes, and no, sir. to this extent: on sunday night november , with the help of the secret service, i was able to reach my older brother john by telephone. he did not have a telephone in his house. we had to go through the air force base where he was located. mr. dulles. where was he living then? mr. oswald. in san antonio with the air force. i talked to him that night and, of course, at that time he was aware that lee had been killed. i talked briefly to him, i say briefly, perhaps or minutes, and discussed with him whether or not he thought it was best that he attended the funeral or not, and it was my opinion that it would not be best for him or his family since he was, his name was pic, and to a great extent he would be out of the picture and there was no sense in exposing him to the publicity of the funeral. not to mention the travel time involved in coming up from san antonio and the like. mr. dulles. you were not in touch with him between the time of the assassination and the arrest of your brother and the time of his death, the hours? mr. oswald. no, sir. mr. dulles. you were not in touch with your brother pic at that time? mr. oswald. no, sir; i was not. mr. mckenzie. but you attempted to reach him? mr. oswald. no. mr. mckenzie. you did afterwards. representative boggs. have you seen much of your mother since the assassination? mr. oswald. no, sir; i have not. representative boggs. is this because you had some emotional problems or difficulties, or what? mr. oswald. sir, i would say, of course, mother was out at the inn of six flags with marina and myself and the children during the week following up to friday which would be, i believe, the th of november, when she went to her home and i left her to go after my wife and the children out at the farm, and marina went over to mr. martin's house, this was the last time i have seen her since then. she has called quite a few times. i talked to her a number of times on the telephone. she is rather persistent to the extent that, and this is not new to me, we have never really gotten along, she tries to dominate me and my wife, and i might say that applies to john and his family, and also to the extent that it applied to lee and his wife, and there is just generally the picture as far as i and my mother are concerned. representative boggs. that is all, mr. chairman. mr. dulles. the testimony we had here from mrs. oswald indicated that it was approximately a year prior to the assassination of the president that he had not been in touch with his mother, and your testimony is to the general effect that about the same period, you had not been in touch. is that just a coincidence, or did something happen about that time so that both of you, both brothers more or less separated from the mother? mr. oswald. no, sir---- mr. dulles. maybe it is geographic, maybe there is some other reason for it. representative boggs. i had understood him to say he had not been in contact with his brother lee, i didn't hear him say anything about his mother. mr. mckenzie. that is correct. for the year prior to november d had you been in touch with your mother or had your mother been in touch with you, robert? mr. oswald. no, sir; we had not been in touch. representative boggs. your mother in her testimony before the commission, gave the impression and later in press stories that she thought that maybe your brother was an agent of the cia. did you ever have any reason to think that? mr. oswald. no, sir; and the only time the thought ever entered my mind as to him being an agent of the cia or any other u.s. government bureau was on his return from russia while residing at my residence in fort worth, the fbi had called and requested that he come down for an interview there in fort worth. on the completion of his interview when i came home from work that night, he discussed it briefly and i asked him how did they treat him, and so forth. he said just fine, and he says, "they asked me was i a secret agent," or some type of agent for the u.s. government and he laughed and he said, "well, don't you know?" i remember that. that was just crossed out of my mind. representative ford. between november and the last time you saw your mother did she ever mention to you that she thought lee was an agent of the federal government? mr. oswald. this was prior to november ? representative ford. no, from november until the last time you saw your mother, did she ever mention to you that she thought lee was an agent of the federal government? mr. oswald. yes, sir; she did. representative ford. can you tell us when? mr. oswald. during the middle to the latter part of the week that we were at the inn of the six flags, and at least one conversation since we left the inn of the six flags, i think it took place during december . mr. jenner. by telephone or personal? mr. oswald. by telephone, sir. mr. jenner. would you be good enough to relate--for representative ford--who was present, what the circumstances were, what was said, and in the presence of whom by your mother at the six flags? mr. oswald. i believe it was just mother and i, and i might say on numerous occasions she pulled me to one side or to one room to say something to me. it was on one of these occasions that she was talking to me about this. mr. jenner. relate as closely as you can recall it now what did she say? mr. oswald. she said she had knowledge of facts in writing that almost conclusively proved to her that lee was an agent of the cia. mr. jenner. did she identify the facts in writing? mr. oswald. no, sir; she did not. mr. jenner. did you inquire of her on that subject? mr. oswald. no, sir; i did not. mr. jenner. did you ask her to state to you the basis, any specific basis of hers on which she predicated her statement? mr. oswald. no, sir; i did ask her if she had such facts to please give it to the u.s. secret service. representative ford. what did she say to that? mr. oswald. i think she more or less shrugged her shoulders and walked off. mr. dulles. had she been in touch with the man who has appeared as her counsel at that time, mr. lane? mr. oswald. no, sir; she had not. mr. dulles. she had not. representative boggs. you at various times have tried to help your mother, i gather, while you were growing up. mr. oswald. yes, sir. representative boggs. i gather you found it rather difficult even when you were younger to get along with your mother? mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is correct. mr. jenner. excuse me, sir, is that also true of your brother, lee, and your brother, john? representative boggs. those were the questions i was about to ask. mr. oswald. i would say this would also apply to my older brother john, and also to lee. it appears as though lee was able to put up with her more than i or my older brother john could. representative boggs. your father died when you were what, about ? mr. oswald. five years old, sir. representative boggs. you were living in new orleans when he died? mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. representative boggs. what did he do? mr. oswald. he worked for the metropolitan life insurance company of new orleans, in the office in new orleans. representative ford. were your mother and father living a happy normal life at the time of his death? mr. oswald. well, sir, i was years old and i would say that they were. certainly i do not recall any instance that would indicate that they were not, and i think we had a very fine family atmosphere. mr. jenner. would you state for us, please, on the same subject, the life and relationship between your mother and mr. ekdahl, give us the same thing with respect to that period, did they get along well normally? mr. oswald. well, i was, of course, older and perhaps remember more, to this extent that on perhaps two or three occasions, i recall some very loud arguments where they were in one room with the door closed, and perhaps i by myself or perhaps in the presence of john was in another room. nothing that i can recall that was said during this arguing other than it was just loud. mr. jenner. during this period, representative boggs, the two boys john and robert were at the military school. they were home during the summer vacation period but otherwise they were in military school. mr. dulles. i think maybe we ought to give the witness a little rest. he has been on for hours. hale, have you got anything more you want to ask now? representative boggs. no, i would just like to thank the witness for his cooperation. mr. oswald. thank you, sir. mr. dulles. do you have anything? do you have to go back? representative ford. i am going to stay until we get some notice from the house if we have any call or a vote. mr. dulles. shall we take just minutes off then and it might be agreeable. (short recess.) mr. dulles. proceed, mr. jenner. representative ford. it would be helpful because we are likely to get a call almost any time to go back to the house, if i could ask a few questions. mr. jenner. go right ahead. mr. dulles. okay. representative ford. mr. oswald, what was your reaction to lee's discharge from the marine corps? mr. oswald. he had an honorable discharge he told me. i had no adverse reaction to it. mr. jenner. did you have in mind, representative ford, the change in the status of that discharge? representative ford. no, i was referring to the circumstances under which he was discharged prematurely. he did get an honorable discharge at the outset but he was released prematurely on a hardship basis. mr. oswald. yes. representative ford. were you familiar with that? mr. oswald. i was not familiar with that at the time it was going on. of course, i was familiar after he was released on that basis. i remember lee telling me, he said, "well, i only lack a month," or a few days anyway before his regular release was up and i believe that was all that was said between lee and i about it. representative ford. when did you learn about the change in his discharge? mr. oswald. sometime during the year of , through my mother. she had advised me at that time she had received mail for lee from the marine corps or from the navy department, stating that generally the reasons he had not notified them of changes of address, and perhaps even to the extent that he had left the country in the manner that he did, that it was going to go before a review board, and that he was to appear before this board to state his case, otherwise it would proceed without him. then i became aware that the board's decision was an undesirable or a dishonorable discharge, i don't recollect which. representative ford. did you take any action when you learned of these circumstances to help your mother or to contact lee about this situation? mr. oswald. no, sir; because at this time in reference to lee there he had already stopped writing to both i and mother and there was no way that we knew of to contact lee, and mother said she was going to take care of it and try to have it postponed or something or other, and the board reached a final decision. representative ford. when your mother went to washington, did she tell you in advance or give you any indication she was going to do that? mr. oswald. no, sir; she did not. i was aware of it after she came back from washington. representative ford. did she fill you in in some detail about her return from washington? mr. oswald. no, sir; she did not. she did not go into any particular detail other than she tried to impress on me she had seen some, as she put it, some very important and influential people in washington. and that was about the text of the conversation in reference to that. representative ford. did she volunteer this or did you ask her about it? mr. oswald. she volunteered this because i did not know of the trip to washington until after she returned from the trip to washington. she volunteered information to me that she had been in washington and saw numbers of people, different people. representative ford. the principal information you have about lee's return from the soviet union is included in the letters that you have from lee? mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is correct. representative ford. those will be submitted subsequently. mr. mckenzie. they have been submitted already, mr. ford. mr. jenner. excuse me, did you address me? mr. mckenzie. the commission has copies of the letters. representative ford. the commission has copies and they will be submitted for the record. would you care to comment in addition on what you found out from lee subsequently of his experiences in the soviet union. why he wanted to come back? mr. oswald. no, sir; i never questioned him about that because we covered it, i believe quite fully in our letters. i was, of course, thoroughly convinced and quite happy that he did want to return to the united states and i felt there was no need to go into the reason why he changed his mind because i believe we had covered that in the letters. representative ford. at the time he indicated a desire to come back to the united states, did he ever contact you about funds for that purpose? mr. oswald. no, sir; i volunteered to help him any way i could on that. he turned down the offer. he turned it down one time i believe in letters offering him to come stay at our house when he returned with his wife and the baby. representative ford. when he did return, after having borrowed money from the federal government, did he ever ask you for any help and assistance in repaying the loan? mr. oswald. on his arrival in new york city, i believe the date to be june , back in , my wife received a telephone call from special services welfare center located at new york city stating that lee and his family were present and that they needed funds to reach their destination, fort worth, tex., and the lady that talked to my wife put it to the extent they were unable to help them and if some member of the family was going to help them, they had better do so then. my wife didn't know anything else to say but of course that we would, and this is what i wanted her to say. she called me at my office that day. the banks had closed but i do have a friend in fort worth who was employed at a bank, cashier, i believe his title, and i called him and asked him if it would be possible to withdraw $ . this was not at my bank, i would give him a check on my checking account, and at which time i wired the money to the welfare bureau in new york, care of lee harvey oswald. representative ford. and that was the money that they, marina and lee, used to get to fort worth. mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. representative ford. did lee ever repay you for that? mr. oswald. yes, sir; he did. he had actually spent a little over $ for the plane tickets and, of course, we met him at dallas, love field, on their arrival there. the next day even though i insisted that he keep it, he returned what he had left from the $ and he said he would pay me back as soon as he was able to and i told him not to worry about that, but just to take his time. representative ford. how long did it take him to repay the remainder? mr. oswald. i say approximately $ to $ during the period he first started to work there in fort worth and prior to their departure to dallas he repaid this $ -$ a week from his pay check. representative ford. did you have any knowledge that lee had become fluent in russian, in the russian language, at the time he came out of the marine corps? mr. oswald. no, sir; i had not. there is also one of his first letters from the hotel in russia that he pointed out to me that i didn't even know that he could write or speak russian. he was being rather sarcastic in his first letters, and he pointed this out. i would answer it that i was not aware that he could speak or could write any foreign language when he was in the marine corps and after he got out of it. representative ford. you had no prior knowledge that he was studying russian or had become articulate in russian? mr. oswald. no, sir; i did not. representative ford. in your experiences with lee during your lifetime, did he ever show a skill at language, for languages? mr. oswald. no, sir; i know of no time nor can i recall of any time that he studied any foreign language or in my presence that he even read a book in a foreign language or attempted to teach himself any type of foreign language. mr. jenner. representative ford, if you have reached a break, i would like to identify the exhibit the witness provided and also identify the letter to which you now have reference. would you obtain that telegram and also identify the date of the letter to which you have lastly made reference so that i may identify our copies? mr. mckenzie. november , , is the letter, mr. jenner, and the telegram is june , . mr. jenner. mr. chairman, we have marked photostatic copies of the telegram to which the witness referred as having been received from the special welfare services as commission exhibit no. , and the letter of november , , as commission exhibit . (the telegram and letter referred to were marked commission exhibit nos. and , respectively, for identification.) mr. jenner. would you obtain the original of those or hand the witness the originals? mr. mckenzie. i have just handed them to him. mr. jenner. would you hand him the original of the letter, please? directing your attention to the telegram first, mr. oswald, which is now marked commission exhibit , is that the original of the telegram to which you made reference as having been received first by telephone call through your wife on june , ---- mr. oswald. pardon me, june . mr. jenner. ? mr. oswald. yes, sir. this reply that we are referring to here now is june . mr. jenner. i see. mr. oswald. we were first contacted on the evening of june . mr. jenner. i take it then, sir, that you received a telephone call on june , is that correct? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. or your wife did. and exhibit which is dated the th, is what? mr. oswald. i am sorry, sir. mr. jenner. following the receipt of the telephone call on june , did you receive or did you send any communication from or to the new york welfare center? mr. oswald. yes, sir. i sent a telegram on the afternoon of june , , wiring a total of $ to the special service welfare center at new york, and also enclosing a message to lee to contact me or to the extent that someone there perhaps would notify me when to expect them in fort worth. mr. jenner. did you receive word from new york as to when lee and marina might expect to be in dallas? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i did. mr. jenner. and was that by telegram or telephone? mr. oswald. this was by telephone i first received the word. mr. jenner. did you receive something in writing that confirmed that? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i did. mr. jenner. is that document before you? mr. oswald. yes, sir; it is. mr. jenner. it is marked commission exhibit , and you actually received that document which is now before you? mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is correct. mr. jenner. june . mr. chairman, i offer in evidence as commission exhibit , the document so marked and identified. mr. dulles. it may be accepted. (the document heretofore marked commission exhibit no. was received in evidence.) mr. jenner. the letter of november , --do you have a better copy, is that ? mr. oswald. it is . mr. dulles. may i just ask a question, are we putting in the original of that or is a photographic copy being substituted for it? mr. jenner. we are employing as a substitute for the original a photostatic copy which has been marked commission exhibit . mr. dulles. all right. mr. mckenzie. mr. chairman, could i be excused for just a moment, please? (short recess.) mr. jenner. in view of the witness' testimony, may i suggest to the commission the feasibility of identifying this particular exhibit since the witness referred to it in response to the questions put by representative ford. mr. dulles. all right. mr. jenner. would you identify the date of commission exhibit , the original? mr. oswald. the date of the letter is november , . mr. jenner. whose handwriting is it? mr. oswald. it is in lee harvey oswald's handwriting. mr. jenner. it is addressed, the second page of the exhibit, is an envelope, which is addressed to r. oswald, davenport street, fort worth, tex., u.s.a., is that you? mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is correct. mr. jenner. are you able to identify that which appears in the upper lefthand corner of the original. mr. oswald. no, sir; i am not. mr. jenner. is that in russian? mr. oswald. i would assume that it would be. mr. jenner. did you receive the letter, commission exhibit , in due course? mr. oswald. i did. i received it on the th day of november . mr. jenner. is this the letter to which you made reference in responding to representative ford's questions? mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is correct. mr. jenner. is the letter in the same condition now and is the envelope now in the same condition now that it was when you received it except that the envelope has been opened to remove the contents? mr. oswald. yes, sir; they are. mr. jenner. does that include the scratching out that appears at the bottom of the second page? mr. oswald. yes, sir; it does. mr. jenner. is that which appears under the attempted obliteration, can you see what was obliterated on the second page, when you examine the original? mr. oswald. i might refer to the first cross out there, it looks like he had signed his name there "lee." the second cross out, one word or three words or four words out of the five are legible "this written in russian" the balance of the words that were crossed out, i cannot make out. mr. jenner. mr. chairman, i would suggest, if i may, that the witness might read this short letter aloud to the commission which will, indicate to the commission the mental state of lee harvey oswald at the time he went to russia in the very early days, and bring it to your attention immediately. mr. dulles. what is the date of this? mr. mckenzie. november , , sir. mr. dulles. proceed, if you will. mr. mckenzie. do you mind if i read it, mr. jenner, and saving his voice a little bit? mr. jenner. no. mr. mckenzie. this i believe is the second letter that robert received from russia after he had sent a telegram to lee telling him what a mistake he had made, and this is the contents of the letter. "november , . dear robert: "well, what shall we talk about? the weather perhaps? certainly you do not wish me to speak of my decision to remain in the soviet union and apply for citizenship here since i am afraid you would not be able to comprehend my reasons. "you really don't know anything about me. do you know, for instance, that i have waited to do this for well over a year? do you know that i" then there is a parenthesis and some russian printing which i presume to be russian and the parenthesis is closed, "speak a fair amount of russian which i have been studying for many months? i have been told that i will not have to leave the soviet union if i did not care to. this then is my decision. i will not leave this country, the soviet union under any conditions. i will never return to the united states which is a country i hate. some day perhaps soon and then again perhaps in a few years i will become a citizen of the soviet union, but it is a very legal process in any event. i will not have to leave the soviet union and i will never leave. "i received your telegram and i was glad to hear from you. only one word bothered me. the word 'mistake' i assume you mean that i have made a 'mistake.' it is not for you to tell me this. you cannot understand my reasons for this very serious action. i will not speak to anyone from the united states over the telephone since it might be tapped by the americans. if you wish to correspond with me you can write to the below address, but i really don't see what we could talk about. if you want to send me some money that i can use but i do not expect to be able to pay it back." then it is signed "lee", and then over to the left-hand side on the bottom of the page it says, "lee harvey oswald, metropole hotel, room , moscow, ussr," and then underneath some writing in russian, which i take to be russian, which is scratched out. mr. jenner. thank you. mr. mckenzie, you have stated that this was the second letter that had been received by mr. robert oswald following lee harvey oswald's taking up residence in russia. is that correct, mr. oswald? mr. mckenzie. i said it is the second or third letter. i don't know exactly. mr. oswald. i believe, sir, it is the first letter, if i may have a moment here. mr. jenner. i thought it was the first. mr. mckenzie. there is one other letter here from santa ana, calif. mr. jenner. that was earlier. mr. oswald. this was the first letter lee had written to me from russia. mr. dulles. could you refresh my memory as to the date of his arrival in russia? mr. oswald. october . mr. dulles. october . mr. oswald. . mr. dulles. and this was---- mr. jenner. november . mr. dulles. november . he had been there about weeks. mr. oswald. the first time i was aware he was in russia was on halloween day , october . mr. dulles. thank you. mr. jenner. my attention is arrested to that portion of the letter in which there appears to be a reference to a telegram which you had previously sent him. mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. had you sent him such a telegram? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i had. mr. jenner. what impelled you or induced you to do that? what event, stimulation? mr. oswald. after we were notified that lee was in russia. mr. jenner. who notified you? mr. oswald. star telegram reporter in fort worth, tex. later on that same day there was quite a few newspaper reporters out to my house. i first objected to speaking to them until they stated that perhaps if we cooperated with them they would perhaps be the only source of information--that they could relay to us when they received anything about what lee was doing, and so forth, and i agreed to talk to them. after this interview with three or four newspaper reporters they had left the house, and another man, i do not recall his name, from the star telegram in fort worth, came to the house, and i spoke with him, and i believe at this time he suggested that it would not be wise because i was asking what did he think as to how i might contact lee, and he suggested a letter--pardon me, a telegram, to secretary of state christian herter, and a telegram to lee. i called the western union and sent telegrams, and at this time---- mr. jenner. excuse me, sir, telegrams, you sent one to mr. herter and one to your brother? mr. oswald. yes, sir; sent two. at this time i advised the reporter of the contents of the telegram. i did not receive confirmation of these telegrams from western union. mr. jenner. i take it from that you do not have copies? mr. oswald. no, sir. however, they are printed in their entirety in the next edition of the star telegram, which i believe would be november st edition. mr. jenner. november , ? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. would you please state to the best of your present recollection what your instruction by way of message was to the western union? mr. oswald. in the telegram to secretary of state christian herter, i requested his assistance in contacting lee oswald through any means available. mr. jenner. did you indicate for what purpose, sir? mr. oswald. i don't believe i did, sir. and the telegram to lee harvey oswald, i asked him to contact me through any means available. i did use the word "mistake." mr. jenner. would you please give me your best recollection of the message, as you recall it, that you dispatched or ordered dispatched? mr. oswald. my best recollection of that is i sent the telegram to lee harvey oswald care of the u.s. embassy in moscow, russia, requesting lee to contact me through any means available, and the one word "mistake. keep your nose clean," signed "robert l. oswald, davenport." mr. jenner. the word "mistake" was by itself? mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is correct. the phrase of "keep your nose clean," is something we have said to each other since knee high, so he would know that i did send the telegram. mr. jenner. did you receive a response to that telegram? mr. oswald. no, sir; i did not receive a response to either one of the telegrams. mr. jenner. neither from the state department, mr. herter, nor an assistant on that telegram, nor from your brother lee on his telegram? mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. other than the letter of november , , now identified as commission exhibit no. ? mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. it is the first word you had from him in which he acknowledges or made plain that he had received the telegram? mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is correct. mr. dulles. excuse me, has been submitted? mr. jenner. i think it has not. may i offer in evidence as commission exhibit the document that has been so identified. mr. dulles. accepted. (the document heretofore marked commission exhibit no. was received in evidence.) mr. jenner. it being understood with mr. mckenzie that we may introduce in evidence the photostatic copy in lieu of the original, the original having been produced before the commission. mr. mckenzie. yes, sir. mr. jenner. did you speak, did you have any conversation with your brother upon his return from russia respecting your dispatch of the telegram and his reaction to it? mr. oswald. no, sir; i did not. i had more or less forgotten it myself. mr. jenner. there is a reference in your brother's letter of november to his reluctance to engage in a telephone conversation. had you attempted to reach him by telephone? mr. oswald. i had decided to try to reach him by telephone on sunday, november , . i did not. mr. jenner. you were unable to, you mean? mr. oswald. no, sir; i did not. i placed the call and i received the new york operator, overseas operator, and there was some discussion as to what time it was in moscow, and so forth, and i changed my mind and did not. however, i am aware that my mother tried and did for a moment have lee on the telephone in moscow. mr. jenner. at that time? mr. oswald. at approximately that same date. mr. jenner. did you ever make any effort to reach him by telephone thereafter? mr. oswald. no, sir; i did not. mr. jenner. did he reach you by telephone or attempt to do so as far as you know? mr. oswald. no, sir; not to my knowledge did he. mr. jenner. there is a reference in the letter of november to his willingness to accept money from you if you would send any. did you send him any money? mr. oswald. no, sir; i did not. my reply to that was if he used it to come back i would gladly send it. mr. jenner. your reply--did you write him a letter? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. do you have a copy of that letter? mr. oswald. no, sir; i do not have a copy of any letter that i wrote to him. mr. jenner. you do not know the whereabouts of that letter? mr. oswald. no, sir; i do not, other than to say that i asked mrs. marina oswald if lee kept any of my letters and her reply was that "no, he always threw them away." mr. jenner. in view of that, mr. oswald, would you please recite to the best of your recollection the contents of your letter in response to your brother's letter of november , ? mr. oswald. sir, i do not remember anything other than that statement referring to the money request. i do not recall anything else in the letter. mr. jenner. you have heard mr. mckenzie read that letter through. did it refresh your recollection, or does it as to whether you made any comment upon his political statements in his letter to you of november ? mr. oswald. i do not believe i did at any time make any statement in reference to his political statements that he made in the letter of november . generally, my statements to the members of the press at the time was that i felt lee was not aware of what he was doing. i believe i referred to him as a kid. and that he just generally didn't know what he was doing, and that was just about the general text of anything i had to say to the members of the press at that time. mr. jenner. there is an entry in your brother's diary of november , , somewhat cryptic, referring to three telephone calls from mother and brother. now you say you didn't call. do you know whether your brother john ever called him? mr. oswald. no, sir, not to my knowledge. however, that was november , sir, . mr. jenner. that is when the entry was made. mr. oswald. i would say that he did not at that time try to contact lee by telephone, because i do not believe at that early date--he was in japan and was not aware that lee had gone to russia, because we were just aware of it on october , and recalling a letter from john over there, that he was not aware of it for a number of days after he actually went over there. mr. jenner. i see. but efforts were made on the part of your mother to reach him or she did reach him by telephone? mr. oswald. yes, sir, i understand he spoke to her briefly, and then he hung up. mr. jenner. for the purpose of refreshing your recollection, would you be good enough to read your brother's letter to you or what purports to be your brother's letter to you of november , , and in reading through it--the reason i have asked you to look at it is that the letter is framed as a response to what apparently were questions that you put to him in your letter which was in response to his letter of november , and seeking to refresh your recollection as to the contents of your letter. mr. chairman, this is a fairly long letter, and if chief justice warren has a little time perhaps we might have mr. oswald read the letter over this evening since we are quite late in the day and i can pursue it tomorrow. mr. dulles. i think we had better adjourn fairly soon. mr. jenner. this would be a convenient time if it is convenient with you gentlemen. the chairman. what does mr. mckenzie think, i see him smiling. mr. mckenzie. i am not going to place myself in a position, mr. chief justice, of overruling either you or mr. dulles. mr. jenner. i can question the witness with respect to some unrelated matters. that matter is not related to this, if i might. mr. mckenzie. mr. jenner, one thing i would appreciate if you could bring out in response to some of mr. bogg's questions which i don't believe he was quite clear on, i would like for the sake of the record to show what robert's career in the marine corps was from the standpoint of whether he was a noncommissioned officer, and so forth, and so on, if you could bring that out. mr. jenner. all right. i had asked him to state his military career and maybe out of modesty he just left left that out. would you--you did give us in detail in your various stages and your specialty. mr. oswald. i might say going through boot camp at san diego, calif., during the second week of boot training i was selected as the right guide of the platoon which actually was a go-between the drill instructors and the rest of the platoon, and i retained that position all the way through the remainder of the boot camp. on completion of boot camp i was a pfc. i retained that--excuse me, i retained that rank until i went to miami, fla., at which time on my departure from miami, fla., i received my corporal's stripe, and prior to leaving korea in april of i received my sergeant's stripe which was my last stripe that i received in the marine corps. i did receive, of course, an honorable discharge, a good conduct medal, and the various citations of the unit in korea, presidential unit citations, and such. mr. jenner. all right. thank you. i can't recall whether it was representative boggs or representative ford who was questioning you about conversations between yourself and your mother regarding her claim that your brother may have been a representative of the cia or some other government agency, and you mentioned there were two occasions. i did ask you to state the detail of one of the occasions which was in the six flags motel in dallas. would you please state where the second conversation took place and who was present and what was said? mr. oswald. the second conversation took place over the telephone in a call that originated from my mother's house in fort worth, tex., to my home in denton, tex. i do not know if my wife was present at my end or who was present on the other end, at my mother's home. mr. jenner. you recognized her voice? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i did. mr. jenner. it was your mother? mr. oswald. it was my mother. mr. jenner. what did she say on the subject? mr. oswald. she was still pursuing this question or this speculation as far as i am concerned that lee was an agent of the cia, and that she was going to be able to, i believe use used the word "concrete", to be able to concretely establish that with the officials. mr. jenner. you fixed that as having occurred subsequent to the occasion in the six flags motel? mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. can you fix the time of the second occasion more definitely than that it followed the other? mr. oswald. i would say this was approximately during the week of december , . mr. jenner. was it before or after her trip to washington which you have testified about when mr. ford questioned you? mr. oswald. this was before her trip to washington. mr. jenner. now, when your mother returned from washington, when she made her trip here about which you testified in response to questions from representative ford, did she say anything about her claim or speculation, as you put it, that your brother was or might have been an agent of the cia or some other agency of the united states? mr. oswald. i have not talked to my mother since she has been to washington. mr. jenner. i see. so there has been no claim by her to you since the occasion of the second conversation which was a telephone call? mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. during the time of your youth and your association with your brother lee you testified this morning of the normal interest of boys in firearms. you have also testified that your brother lee was right handed. did you ever see him handle even a toy pistol or a cap gun other than with his right hand? mr. oswald. no, sir, not that i can remember. you, of course, recall sometimes when maybe he was two-gun pete, so to speak. mr. jenner. he was what? mr. oswald. he was two-gun pete, so to speak, when we were playing cops and robbers or cowboys and indians, where he would have two guns. mr. jenner. with the exception of having two guns when he had one he had it in his right hand? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. what ever type of playing, shooting, sitting, or otherwise, he always had the pistol, rifle or cap gun in his right hand? mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. you said you were using b-b guns. were there occasions when lee also occasionally shot a b-b gun rifle? mr. oswald. not to my knowledge, sir. mr. jenner. i have a recollection that when he was mustered out of the service in september of he spent two or three days at home in fort worth. mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. and there was an occasion when you and he and some friends of yours went on a hunting trip. mr. oswald. my brother-in-law. mr. jenner. or you went squirrel shooting or rabbit shooting. mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. just the two of you, or did anybody accompany you? mr. oswald. three of us. mr. jenner. did you have a rifle? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i did. mr. jenner. those i take it were . 's. mr. oswald. all three were . caliber, that is correct. mr. jenner. where did you obtain them? mr. oswald. two of them belonged to me and one of them belonged to my brother-in-law. mr. jenner. your brother-in-law? mr. oswald. my brother-in-law. mr. jenner. what is his name? mr. oswald. s. r. mercer, jr. mr. jenner. what was the occasion of this trip? how did it come about? did you suggest it, your brother-in-law, lee or how? mr. oswald. the day that i recall that lee stayed with us in--between the time he was discharged and the time he was supposed to be leaving for new orleans was a period of to days. one of those days, i feel sure was a saturday, either we spent all day out at my in-laws' farm or the afternoon at the farm at which time lee and i, and my brother-in-law went hunting. mr. dulles. was this a couple of days before he left for russia? mr. oswald. this was a couple of days before he left for new orleans or about day or days before he left for new orleans. mr. dulles. and then he shipped out? mr. oswald. to locate a job. mr. jenner. on that occasion, that incident, did he have occasion to discharge the . caliber rifle he was carrying? mr. oswald. yes, sir; he did. mr. jenner. did you see him do so? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. from what shoulder did he, against which shoulder did he place the butt of the gun? mr. oswald. the right shoulder. mr. jenner. and with which hand or fingers of which hand did he pull the trigger and discharge the gun? mr. oswald. the right hand, sir. mr. jenner. did he exhibit any proficiency in the use of that . caliber gun on that occasion? mr. oswald. i would say an average amount. mr. jenner. hunting rabbits or squirrels with a rifle takes pretty good marksmanship. did any of you boys bring down a rabbit or squirrel, on the fly, i mean? mr. oswald. as i recall, one small, very small cottontail as he ran across the peanut field, all three of us were shooting at him, and my weapon that i had, one of the weapons that belonged to me, was a semiautomatic and i perhaps had a burst of four or five rounds that i said i got him. but all three of us were shooting at him. mr. mckenzie. did all three of you claim him? mr. oswald. no, sir; i did. mr. jenner. was that your only victory on that hunting trip or did someone else shoot down a squirrel or a rabbit? mr. oswald. no squirrels were killed that day and perhaps i believe this was the occasion that we went into what we called a briar patch located off to the left of the farmhouse; at that particular time it was very thick with cottontails, and i believe we exterminated about eight of them at that time between the three of us because it was the type of brush and thorns that didn't grow very high but we were able to see over them, so getting three of us out there it wasn't very hard to kill eight of them. mr. jenner. now, had you and your brother engaged in this very light form of hunting at any other time during your lifetime? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. would you indicate the frequency of that? mr. oswald. if i recall, only one other occasion that we had been hunting together. this was during a leave that lee had from the marine corps. mr. jenner. during a leave that he had? mr. oswald. yes, sir. and at which time, if i may correct myself there, another time comes to mind, i recall two times that we had this type of light hunting out there at that farm, at the same place. one time was during a leave that he had from the marine corps. i don't recall of any game at that particular time that we shot. i know we did handle the rifle and fired maybe target practice, something along that line. i don't recall of anything. the second time that i now remember is during his stay after he returned from russia, during his stay at my home in fort worth, that my wife and i and our children took him and his wife and child out to the farm to meet our in-laws, my in-laws, and also to do a little hunting while we was out there, and which we did just a very little bit. i believe this was on a sunday afternoon and we didn't stay out very long. mr. jenner. what weapons did you use on that occasion? mr. oswald. on that occasion, i believe the same weapons we used before. mr. jenner. would that be true of all three occasions? mr. oswald. i believe on the first occasion, which was the occasion that lee came home on leave, that at that time i only owned one . rifle. mr. jenner. was that the semiautomatic? mr. oswald. no, sir; it was not the semiautomatic, it was a bolt action rifle, with a clip on it. however, i believe lee either used my brother-in-law's rifle---- mr. jenner. was that a bolt-action rifle? mr. oswald. yes, sir; it is a bolt-action rifle. he either used that rifle or a single-shot, bolt-action rifle, another . that was out at the farm. mr. jenner. on the occasion during which you went hunting during that -day period, interregnum his return and his discharge and his departure for new orleans, was the weapon he employed a bolt-action weapon? mr. oswald. yes, sir; it was. mr. jenner. is it a fair statement on my part that on all the occasions that you recall hunting with lee he employed a bolt-action rifle? mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. during your youth and prior to these occasions about which you testified, do you know of the fact or know by rumor or otherwise that your brother engaged in this light hunting or other kind of hunting where he used a firearm even though he was not with you or you did not accompany him? mr. oswald. i feel surely that he did, without recalling any particular time that he told me, but his interest along that line was generally like mine, that is hunting and fishing, and i am sure when he had an opportunity to hunt that he did do so. mr. dulles. did he ever tell you about hunting in russia? mr. oswald. yes, sir; he did. mr. jenner. would you relate that, please, tell us when the conversation took place and the circumstances, if it was a conversation? mr. oswald. the circumstances was it was in a letter i received from him. mr. jenner. is that one of the letters you produced? mr. oswald. yes, sir; it is. mr. jenner. did you have any conversation with him in addition to the letter, apart from the letter? mr. oswald. i believe i did along that line because as i stated our interests in hunting and fishing was mutual and he did state that he was able to---- mr. jenner. in response to mr. dulles' question, would you give the conversation? we will take care of the letter in the morning. mr. oswald. no, sir; i am trying to give the conversation. mr. jenner. thank you. proceed. mr. oswald. that we talked about hunting over there, and he said that he had only been hunting a half dozen times, and so forth, and that he had only used a shotgun, and a couple of times he did shoot a duck. mr. jenner. it was all shotgun shooting, no rifle shooting? mr. oswald. no rifle shooting, no sir. that is all they were allowed to have, the shotgun. mr. jenner. this conversation took place, as i understand it, on his return from russia when he was living with you for that month, that would be june-july of ? mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is correct. mr. jenner. and that is the extent of the conversation? mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is. mr. jenner. as you now recall it--there have been some reports, and they are only reports as far as we of the staff are concerned, of speculation about a television set, whether your brother purchased or owned a television set and whether he purchased it outright or on time with a guarantee from you. what information or knowledge do you have in that connection? mr. oswald. i am not aware that he purchased a television set, sir. i did at his request, when he and marina and the baby were living in fort worth. mr. jenner. where in fort worth? mr. oswald. mercedes street in fort worth, in a small duplex which was---- mr. jenner. can you fix even more definitely the time of this event? mr. oswald. this was approximately the latter part of september, . and at his request---- mr. jenner. he came to you, excuse me. mr. oswald. he called me, sir. mr. jenner. he called you by telephone? mr. oswald. yes, sir; he called me at my office from his place of employment in fort worth at that time. mr. jenner. give us the substance of what he said. mr. oswald. we talked briefly about how each family was doing, and so forth, and he said that he would like to establish credit and he had tried to charge something at montgomery ward's at fort worth, the west th street store, and they had stated that he needed to have somebody cosign or vouch for him, and this was his request to me, and i said gladly i would do so, and late that afternoon after work, this was approximately : by the time i arrived at montgomery ward, i did sign for lee's charge account. however, i was not aware of what he was charging. mr. jenner. there was no discussion, i take it, at that time of what--the use to which he intended to put his credit? mr. oswald. no, sir; i believe perhaps he did mention something about a baby chair and a baby bed. mr. jenner. was there ever any discussion between you about his purchase or acquisition of a television set? mr. oswald. no, sir; there was not. mr. jenner. were you ever in his home or apartment? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i was. mr. jenner. did you see a television set there? mr. oswald. pardon me, you are referring to the apartment on mercedes street, is that correct? mr. jenner. yes. mr. oswald. yes, i was in his home quite a few times and there was not a television set that i remember. mr. jenner. on any occasion that you were there? mr. oswald. no, sir. mr. jenner. on any occasion when you were in any place of residence of your brother after his return to the united states, did you see in those premises a television set? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. where was that? mr. oswald. at my house and at my mother's house. mr. jenner. i should have been more specific and identified a residence as one of his own rather than living with you or living with your mother. mr. oswald. at no residence that he lived in that i was aware of at any time did i see him with a television set that i would take to be his own. mr. jenner. did you ever have any discussions--did any discussion ever occur between the two of you with respect to his acquisition of a television set? mr. oswald. none that i recall, sir. mr. jenner. this is, as far as you are concerned, a total blank, this television set matter? mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. dulles. i think we had better adjourn pretty soon. this man has had quite an ordeal for the day. mr. jenner. it is acceptable. mr. dulles. is it acceptable to you? the chairman. yes. mr. oswald. i have no objection to continuing. mr. mckenzie. if you would prefer to reconvene tomorrow morning we can reconvene then. mr. rankin. i think o'clock is better. i think we can finish up in the morning. mr. dulles. thank you. at o'clock in the morning. (whereupon, at : p.m., the president's commission recessed.) _friday, february , _ testimony of robert edward lee oswald resumed the president's commission met at a.m. on february , , at maryland avenue ne., washington, d.c. present were chief justice earl warren, chairman; and allen w. dulles, member. also present were j. lee rankin, general counsel; albert e. jenner, jr., assistant counsel; wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel; and william mckenzie, attorney for robert edward lee oswald. the chairman. gentlemen, the commission will be in order. as yesterday, i will only be able to be here for a comparatively short time, because we have our weekly conference of the supreme court today. and when i leave, mr. allen dulles will conduct the hearing. we will now proceed with the testimony. mr. jenner. thank you, mr. chief justice. i would like to return, mr. oswald, to the time that your brother lee was discharged from military service and spent approximately days at home. you recall that period? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i do. mr. jenner. now, would you please describe his physical appearance the last time you saw him during that -day period? mr. oswald. his hair was brown and curly, a full set of hair. his physical appearance--he was trim, weighed approximately pounds, he was approximately foot - / , he seemed to be in fine physical shape at that time. mr. jenner. i mentioned days. was i wrong about the days, or was it a little longer period? mr. oswald. no, sir; my recollection on that period was or days, and only during one of these day do i remember seeing him. he spent the day at our house. mr. jenner. it was your impression, sir, that he was in good health, bright and alert mentally at that time? mr. oswald. yes, sir; he most certainly was. mr. jenner. did you describe his physical appearance as far as his head of hair was concerned? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. a full head of hair? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. did he appear strained in any respect? mr. oswald. no, sir; he did not. mr. jenner. his mental condition, as far as you can tell, is what you would regard or had regarded as normal during your acquaintance with him as his brother? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. now, will you then jump to the first time you saw him subsequently thereto, which i understand was in june . state the date, please, as closely as you can. mr. oswald. this was june , . mr. jenner. and where did you see him? mr. oswald. at dallas, love field. mr. jenner. now, on that occasion--and take in also the period of time that he lived with you in your home during june and part of july --what did you observe, and if in contrast by way of contrast, in his physical appearance and demeanor as against the last time you had seen him, in . mr. oswald. his appearance had changed to the extent that he had lost a considerable amount of hair; his hair had become very kinky in comparison with his naturally curly hair prior to his departure to russia. mr. jenner. had his hair been in any respect kinky, as you put it, in november of immediately prior to his leaving for russia? mr. oswald. that would have been in september. mr. jenner. september--i am sorry. mr. oswald. no, sir; it was not. it was curly. mr. jenner. did that arrest your attention, the difference in the texture of his head of hair? mr. oswald. yes, sir; it certainly did. mr. jenner. you, though years old at the time of your father's death--do you recall his physical appearance insofar as his head of hair? mr. oswald. my father's head of hair? mr. jenner. yes. mr. oswald. he had a full set of hair. mr. jenner. do you have any baldness or tendency towards baldness in your family? mr. oswald. none that i am aware of. mr. jenner. now, i include both your mother and father and relatives on either side, to the extent that you have met those people. mr. oswald. no, sir; no one that i recall that i met, relatives on either my father's or mother's side, had any tendency towards baldness. mr. jenner. and you have none? mr. oswald. no, sir; i do not. mr. jenner. and your brother john? mr. oswald. no, sir. mr. jenner. he still has a full head of hair? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. even now? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. what else did you observe by way of his facial appearance--whether he was drawn, or bouncy and healthy, as he had been when you had seen him in september of ? mr. oswald. he appeared the first couple of days upon his return, june , , to be rather tense and anxious. i also noted that his complexion had changed somewhat to the extent that he had always been very fair complected--his complexion was rather ruddy at this time--you might say it appeared like an artificial suntan that you get out of a bottle, but very slight--in other words, a tint of brown to a tint of yellow. mr. jenner. what else did you notice by contrast, so far as his physical appearance is concerned? and then, next, i want to go to his demeanor. mr. oswald. i believe his weight perhaps was a little bit less at that time. i would say probably pounds--approximately pounds less than what he was in , before he went to russia. mr. jenner. did you say he appeared drawn as compared with his appearance in --facially? mr. oswald. i would say to some extent; yes, sir. mr. jenner. now, would you please relate to the commission any other differences, if there were any, in demeanor? mr. oswald. to me, he acted the same as he did in prior to going to russia. our conversations at the time he returned from russia in june of --he appeared to be the same boy i had known before, with the exception of what i noted on his physical appearance. as far as his conversations were concerned at this particular time, june of , i noticed no difference. he appeared to have picked up something of an accent. but i took this to mean that because he had been speaking the russian language and living in russia during a period of approximately two and a half years, that this was the reason for the accent. mr. jenner. did these differences in physical appearance, especially his hair, his skin tone, his overall facial and physical appearance, lead you at that moment, in the light of what had occurred in the meantime, your exchange of correspondence, lead you to form an opinion, at least tentative, as to what might have occurred or happened to your brother while he was in russia? mr. oswald. in reference to that, sir; his hair--i did, either on the first or second night, when he was there at the house--i pointed it out to him and actually had him bend his head down to where i could look at the top of it, and it was very thin on the top--you could see just right down to his scalp. and his comment on that was that he thought the weather had affected his hair, the cold weather. mr. jenner. did he make any comments when you met him at love field, and did you ride in with him from love field to your home? mr. oswald. yes, sir. we were in my personal car, and my wife and my children were with me. we met him and his wife and his baby. he seemed, perhaps the word is disappointed, when there were no newspaper reporters around. he did comment on this. mr. jenner. tell us what he said. mr. oswald. i believe his comment was something, "what, no photographers or anything?" i said, "no, i have been able to keep it quiet." mr. jenner. and where was that remark made? mr. oswald. at love field, as they came through the gate. mr. jenner. did he make any remarks on that subject as you drove into town? mr. oswald. no, sir; he did not. mr. jenner. did he make any other comments that arrested your attention when he arrived at love field or while you were driving into town? mr. oswald. yes, sir; he did. in reference to newspaper reporters again, or photographers, he asked me if i had been receiving calls and so forth, and i told him i had received two or three calls, but i said nothing, and they were not aware of his schedule of arrival in the united states, and they were not aware at that time, to my knowledge, that he had arrived at love field, and that he was going to be at my home. mr. jenner. having in mind the changes in physical appearance, and also the course of events since the day of his arrival at love field to the present time, have you formed an opinion, mr. oswald, as to whether your brother may have undergone some treatment of some kind in russia that affected his mind? mr. oswald. yes, sir. since lee's death on november th, i have formed an opinion in that respect. mr. jenner. what is that opinion? mr. oswald. that, perhaps in sheer speculation on my part--that due to the nature of the change in his hair, in the baldness that appeared, i reached the opinion that perhaps something in the nature of shock treatments or something along that line had been given him in russia. mr. jenner. you base this opinion on any factors other than or in addition to this change of physical appearance that you noted on his return from russia? mr. oswald. no, sir; i do not. mr. jenner. has the course of events affected the opinion you have now expressed? mr. oswald. yes, sir; since the course of events, since friday, november , , his death following on the th of november , i have searched my own mind for possible reasons of why or how this all came about. that has been one of my opinions--in reference to his hair structure and so forth, and his baldness--pardon me just a minute, please. mr. jenner. have you concluded your answer? mr. oswald. yes, thank you. mr. jenner. has this course of events and your brother's physical appearance and any other factors you had in mind led you to form an opinion as to whether he was or had been an agent of the government of the ussr? mr. mckenzie. you are asking him, mr. jenner, to speculate. mr. jenner. i am. mr. oswald. may i have that again, please? mr. mckenzie. his question was--this is off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. oswald. no, sir. mr. mckenzie. mr. jenner, may i ask a question at this time? robert, at any time after your brother returned from russia, or at any time after he went to russia, did he ever remark to you as to whether or not he had been ill while in russia? mr. oswald. no, sir; he did not. mr. mckenzie. has his wife, marina oswald, ever said anything to you about whether or not he was ill while he resided in russia? mr. oswald. yes, sir; she has. mr. mckenzie. and what did she say? mr. jenner. could you fix the time, please? mr. oswald. my conversation with marina oswald? mr. jenner. yes. mr. oswald. approximately weeks ago, in one of our conversations. mr. jenner. and where did that take place? mr. oswald. i believe in my car on the way to the cemetery, or returning from the cemetery, to mr. martin's house, in dallas, tex. mr. jenner. anyone other than marina and yourself present? mr. oswald. no, sir. mr. jenner. all right. state the conversation. mr. oswald. if i may fix the date more accurately here, sir; if i could possibly refer to my diary. i recall this conversation on january , , between marina oswald and myself in my car, at which time she stated to me---- mr. jenner. excuse me, sir, to what are you now referring to refresh your recollection? mr. oswald. this would be to a followup of the conversation we had in reference to---- mr. jenner. excuse me--the document. mr. oswald. i am referring to my notebook that i have been keeping in various events that have occurred since november , . mr. jenner. for the purpose of the record, would you read the first three words and the last three words of the page to which you are making reference? mr. oswald. "sunday, january , . jim advised that"---- mr. jenner. that is on the first line? mr. oswald. yes, sir. the last line is "told her this story." mr. jenner. all right. proceed, sir. mr. oswald. we had a discussion---- mr. mckenzie. pardon me just a second. for the sake of the record, let me state this. a copy of this diary has been furnished to the commission, photostated by the commission, and mr. jenner has it in front of him. mr. jenner. i will qualify it, mr. chief justice. but i didn't want to take your honor's time at the moment, because i do want to cover another subject while you are still here. proceed, sir. mr. oswald. what prompted my question as to whether or not lee was ill while he was in russia was the followup of a conversation that we had in relation to an incident that occurred some time in the year of . i am not able to place the date of that purported incident. i was advised at that time in reference to this incident that on one day, that lee was going to shoot at or shoot mr. richard m. nixon, that marina n. oswald locked lee harvey oswald in the bathroom for the entire day. at the end of this brief remark in relation to mr. nixon, i asked her at that time had lee been ill or been in the hospital while he was in russia. and, at this time, she told me yes, that he had, on two occasions, been in the hospital in russia. i asked her what was the nature of the illness. my best recollection of that, sir, was that he was having difficulty with his sinus, and that the cold was bothering him somewhat. and i do not recall anything more specific than that in relation to the illness. mr. dulles. could i ask one question there? did marina say whether this was while they were in minsk, or she didn't indicate where he was at the time? mr. oswald. no, sir, she did not. mr. dulles. she did not? mr. oswald. no, sir; she did not. mr. jenner. have you now stated and exhausted your recollection of everything she said on that subject of his illness on that particular occasion? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i have. mr. jenner. and you did not pursue the matter any further than you have indicated with her? mr. oswald. sir, i believe i attempted to, and with her limited knowledge of the english language, we were encountering some difficulties. and i told her perhaps at a later date, or something of that nature, that we could discuss it more fully. mr. jenner. did you ever pursue it with her on any subsequent occasion? mr. oswald. no, sir; i have not. mr. jenner. if i may, mr. chief justice, i will return to that illness feature at a later point. you have an entry in your diary under the date of january , ---- mr. oswald. yes, sir, in reference to mr. nixon? mr. jenner. yes. now, you have alluded to mr. nixon in testifying with respect to your conversation on the subject of illness with marina. mr. chief justice, if i may, i will read the entry on that particular date, and will wish to question the witness about it. "sunday, january , . jim advised that marina told him that lee wanted to"--and there are a series of five dashes, followed by the letters, "nmr, also, but marina locked lee in the bathroom all day. this was confirmed later this day by marina. on the way to the cemetery." is that in your handwriting? mr. oswald. yes, sir; it is. mr. jenner. would you please supply, if suppliable, what is indicated by the three dashes preceding the letters "nmr" and identify what the letters "nmr" refer to? mr. oswald. if i may, sir, correct you there. there are five dashes there. and the word "shoot" was my intention to leave blank there. and the initials "nmr" stands for richard m. nixon in reverse. mr. jenner. i take it, then, that the five dashes were inserted there as a substitute for the word "shoot"? mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. and the initials are those of richard m. nixon reversed? mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. now, would you please state fully when this matter or this incident first came to your attention where and through and by whom? mr. oswald. the first time i was aware of this incident was at mr. jim h. martin's home in dallas, tex. mr. jenner. on what day? mr. oswald. on sunday, january , . mr. jenner. what was the occasion for your being there? mr. oswald. to visit with marina, and to take her to the cemetery. mr. jenner. you entered the home? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. was your wife, mrs. oswald, with you? mr. oswald. yes, sir; she was. mr. jenner. your children? mr. oswald. yes, sir; they were. mr. jenner. you entered the home, and who was there? mr. oswald. mr. and mrs. james h. martin, i believe their children were also present, and in the living room of their home there was two secret service agents, or one secret service agent, and two dallas police officers. mr. jenner. are you able to identify any of those four men? do you recall any of them at the moment? mr. oswald. i believe, sir, that one of the secret service agents, if he was either the only one there, or two of them were there, the one that i do recall, mr. bob jameson or jimson, of the dallas office--the u.s. secret service office in dallas. mr. jenner. now, to what richard m. nixon did the initials "nmr" as you have placed them in this note refer? mr. oswald. to the past vice president of the united states. mr. jenner. now, proceed to tell us about how the circumstance arose, your first conversation of it, your first notice of it. mr. oswald. i was talking with mr. jim martin about various other matters. mr. jenner. excuse me, sir. where were you in talking to mr. jim martin? mr. oswald. i was in the den of his home, sitting on a sofa. mr. jenner. and who was present? mr. oswald. jim martin and i were sitting on the sofa, and i believe my wife and his wife were at the end of the den in the kitchen part of it, standing by the sink. mr. jenner. what is the distance between yourselves sitting on the sofa and the others? mr. oswald. i would say approximately or feet, sir. mr. jenner. and was there a doorway, was it open? mr. oswald. no, sir; it is an open room. mr. jenner. so you were all in the same room--one section of it you describe as a den? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and the other section consists of what? mr. oswald. the kitchen, the sink, refrigerator, a washing machine, built-in oven and range. mr. jenner. all right. proceed. mr. oswald. we discussed other matters. i do not recall what they were. just talking to him about how marina was doing and so forth, and any other thing that we might be talking about in general, small talk. and we finally--he finally brought up this question. mr. jenner. what did he say and how did he approach it? reproduce it as best you can, sir. mr. oswald. i believe he moved very close to me. i was turned towards him. he was to my left. i might say at this time that the women at the sink would be on my far right, behind me generally. and he related to me---- mr. jenner. what did he say? mr. oswald. this incident, that marina had told him that on a day still not identified to me, that he, lee harvey oswald, had the intention to shoot mr. richard m. nixon, and that marina n. oswald had locked lee in the bathroom for the entire day. and that was the text to my best remembrance--that was everything that was said from him. mr. jenner. have you now exhausted your recollection? mr. oswald. of mr. martin's conversation to me? mr. jenner. yes. mr. oswald. yes, sir; i have. mr. jenner. did he say how he had come about this information? mr. oswald. no, other than he had a conversation with marina n. oswald. mr. jenner. and he was relating to you a conversation he had had with her? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. did he say that she had reported this to him? mr. oswald. yes, sir; he did. mr. jenner. did you inquire of him as to why this had not been disclosed to you before? mr. oswald. no, sir; i did not. mr. jenner. did you ask any questions of him in that connection? mr. oswald. no, sir; i did not. i might add that my reaction at that time was that i was rather speechless. i believe i just shook my head in utter disbelief to what i was hearing. mr. jenner. did mr. martin relate to you when marina had told him this story? mr. oswald. no, sir; not to my recollection. mr. jenner. did you question him with respect to that? mr. oswald. no, sir; i did not. mr. jenner. did you make any effort to fix the time when the event in question had taken place? mr. oswald. yes, sir; in my own mind i did. mr. jenner. you didn't question mr. martin about it, however? mr. oswald. no, sir; i did not. mr. dulles. at this time, did you know of the rumors with regard to the attack on general walker or not? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i did. and i refer, again, to the entry on january , , and the statement that jim advised that marina told him that lee wanted to "blank nmr, also." and by that "also" i was aware of the attempt on general walker's life. mr. jenner. was anything said during the course of your conversation with mr. martin in the den with respect to the information you had that an attempt had been made by your brother on the life of general walker? mr. oswald. no, sir, not at this conversation, it was not. mr. jenner. did you ever talk to mr. martin at any time subsequent to this, with respect to this event? mr. oswald. yes, sir--preceding this day of january , , approximately or weeks prior to that---- mr. jenner. this particular event, i mean--mr. martin's relating to you that marina had advised him that your brother wanted to shoot richard m. nixon, the vice president of the united states. did you have a further conversation with mr. martin at any time subsequent to that--that is, after january , ? mr. oswald. no, sir; i did not. mr. jenner. you have not up to this moment? mr. oswald. no, sir; i have not. mr. jenner. you did not at any time later that day? you had only this one conversation with mr. martin, and none other? mr. oswald. on this subject, yes, sir, that is correct. mr. jenner. on this particular subject, you made no effort to question him further about it? mr. oswald. no, sir. mr. jenner. and you have now exhausted your recollection as to all of your conversation on this occasion with mr. martin? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i have. mr. jenner. and you at no time ever pursued it further with him? mr. oswald. no, sir; i did not. mr. jenner. did you report or relate this to the secret service or the fbi or any other agency of the u.s. government? mr. oswald. no, sir; i did not. mr. mckenzie. pardon me just a minute, mr. jenner. may i ask a question? you have, have you not, furnished the fbi a copy of this diary that you have kept since november d? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. mckenzie. and likewise you furnished it to this commission? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. when was your diary furnished to the commission for the first time? mr. mckenzie. yesterday morning. mr. oswald. february , . mr. jenner. yesterday morning when you and your counsel tendered it to me? mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. but between the th of january and yesterday morning, when you tendered the diary to me, you made no tender of any written materials nor did you relate orally to any agent or agency of the u.s. government this particular incident? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i had. mr. jenner. you had? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. please state to whom and when? mr. oswald. this was two fbi agents on the night of--may i have a calendar, please? on february , , i turned over my notebook to two fbi agents at my home in denton, tex., at which time they asked me about this particular incident. i referred them to my diary, and turned over the diary, with the advice of my counsel. mr. jenner. was that incident related by you to them at your instance, or did they come to you with specific reference to it? mr. oswald. they did have a specific reference to it on the night of february , . mr. jenner. who raised it--you or the agents? mr. oswald. the agents did, sir. mr. jenner. did they state to you as to how they had come to have that information? mr. oswald. no, sir; they did not. mr. mckenzie. for the sake of the record, mr. jenner, i would like to state what i told the agents. mr. jenner. now, returning to--when did you tell them, mr. mckenzie? mr. mckenzie. mr. jenner, the best i recall it was either monday--it was monday, february th. mr. jenner. monday of this week? mr. mckenzie. yes, this past monday. and i might add that i received the diary myself sometime around : or o'clock on saturday, february th, and i read the diary sunday evening, february th, and gave the information to the fbi agents on february th, at which time i suggested that if they would like to talk to robert about it they could be free to do so. mr. oswald. may i say something here, bill? mr. mckenzie did not know the exact meaning of this statement on january , . he asked me in his office on monday afternoon, february , , to fill in the blanks, and to give the man's name to the initials and what it meant, at which time i did. mr. jenner. but from the th of january to saturday february , , you had not drawn this matter to the attention of any agency of the united states or any agent of the united states, or any other person, is that correct? mr. oswald. no, sir; that is not correct. i did not speak to any agent of the u.s. government. my wife read my diary, and she asked me what that entry was. mr. jenner. when did you prepare this diary? mr. oswald. i prepared it on the dates noted in the diary. in this particular instance, sunday, january , . mr. jenner. that particular entry, i take it, then, from your testimony, was made contemporaneously with the event itself--that is, on january , ? mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. this news from mr. martin startled and upset you, did it not? mr. oswald. yes, sir; it did. mr. jenner. you mentioned that you had gone to the martin home, one of the purposes being to take marina to the cemetery. mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. did you do so? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i did. mr. jenner. as soon as you were in her presence in the automobile, or while you were driving there, did you raise this subject with her? mr. oswald. no, sir; i did not. mr. jenner. you made no mention of what mr. martin had said to you? mr. oswald. no, sir; i did not. mr. jenner. did you ever speak to marina about it? mr. oswald. yes, sir; she raised the question to me, or told me of the incident. mr. jenner. i see. was it on your way to the cemetery, while you were there, or returning from the cemetery? mr. oswald. on the way to the cemetery, sir. mr. jenner. please try to reconstruct the circumstances, and state as clearly as you can how she raised the subject with you, and what she said--first stating, however, who was in the automobile as you were driving to the cemetery. mr. oswald. it was marina n. oswald and myself, only. mr. jenner. all right. now, try to--give us the scene just as it occurred--how she brought it out. mr. oswald. we had been talking about the children, her children and my children, family affairs, and so forth, attempting to carry on a reasonable facsimile of a complete conversation within her limited knowledge of english. and at a pause in this conversation, she started relating to me this incident. mr. jenner. please, mr. oswald--when you say she started relating this incident, it doesn't help us any, it is not evidentiary. how did she do it? what did she say, as best you are able to recall? how did she bring it up? mr. mckenzie. in her own words, robert, try to reconstruct exactly what was said to you from the time you left jim martin's house until you went--in dallas, tex., until you arrived in fort worth, tex., at the cemetery. mr. oswald. on this subject, to the best of my knowledge, marina said to me, "robert, lee also wanted to shoot mr. nixon." and, at that time, i believe i gave her the statement that "yes, jim told me about this when we were sitting in the den that afternoon." mr. jenner. you say you gave her the statement--you mean that is what you said to her? mr. oswald. yes, sir. and she made her statement, referring to this incident of mr. nixon. and then she related---- mr. jenner. what did she say? mr. oswald. i might say this, sir. in practically the same words that mr. martin had told me, because he had reportedly received the conversation from marina, within her limited english--it rang a bell to the extent that the words were close to being the same to the way mr. martin had related it to me. it was a very brief statement on her behalf that lee was going to shoot mr. richard m. nixon, and that she, marina n. oswald, locked lee in the bathroom all day. i did ask her was he very angry. her reply was at first he certainly was, or was, but later---- mr. jenner. when you say at first, you mean her first response to your question was, "he certainly was." mr. oswald. yes, sir; or that he was. i don't believe she knows the word "certainly." that he was angry, and that he calmed down during the period that he was locked in the bathroom. and i asked her at the end of that statement, "did he beat you or hurt you?" she said, "no, he did not spank me." that is, to the best of my recollection, the entire conversation on the incident of mr. richard m. nixon. mr. jenner. did you inquire--you have now exhausted your recollection? mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. did you inquire of her as to when this incident took place? mr. oswald. no, sir; i did not. mr. jenner. did she volunteer it? mr. oswald. no, sir; she did not. mr. jenner. did you inquire of mr. martin as to when the incident took place? mr. oswald. i do not recall that i did, sir. mr. jenner. did you make any inquiry as to where they were residing at the time the incident was alleged to have taken place, or might have taken place? mr. oswald. no, sir; i did not. mr. jenner. did you assume any particular residence? mr. oswald. i assumed that this took place in one of two apartments that they lived in in dallas, tex. the addresses i am not familiar with. they are the only two houses or apartments that i did see for myself from the outside on the night of thanksgiving, , whatever the date was, at which time we had dinner at the martin's home for the first time that mrs. martin had met marina n. oswald. and, at the conclusion of the dinner, the secret service agents, with us, wanted marina to point out to them the two apartments that they had lived in in dallas. mr. jenner. and you accompanied them, did you? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i was in the car. mr. jenner. did you thereafter pursue this occurrence, or alleged occurrence, and obtain any additional information about it, with anybody--the secret service, the fbi, mr. thorne, mr. martin, marina--anybody at all? mr. oswald. no, sir; i have not. mr. jenner. did you inquire of marina as to how she locked him in the bathroom? mr. oswald. no, sir; i did not. mr. jenner. did it occur to you that it might be quite difficult for a -pound woman to lock your brother in a bathroom? mr. oswald. yes, sir; it has occurred to me exactly how this was possible, to the extent that a bathroom usually has a lock on the inside and not on the outside. mr. jenner. well, if he didn't want to be locked in the bathroom, she would have quite a difficulty--she could not force him into the bathroom. mr. mckenzie. mr. jenner, that is a question for rank speculation. mr. jenner. i appreciate that, sir. i am trying to jog his recollection. mr. mckenzie. may i ask him a question at this time to maybe perhaps assist you? the chairman. you may ask, yes. mr. mckenzie. robert, has marina told you at anytime or do you now know where they were residing when this occurrence happened? mr. oswald. no, sir; she has not. and i am not aware from any source where this event took place. mr. mckenzie. were you ever in their apartments in dallas, tex., at anytime? mr. oswald. no, sir; i was not. mr. mckenzie. prior to going to--with the secret service and marina on thanksgiving evening, was that the first time that you had ever seen the apartments where they lived? mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. the chairman. i think we will take a break now. i must be going to my conference. so we will recess for just a moment. (brief recess.) mr. dulles. the commission will come to order. mr. jenner, if you will proceed. mr. jenner. thank you, sir. mr. oswald, we have some data that indicates or confirms the fact that mr. nixon was invited to dallas in april of , by the southeast dallas chamber of commerce to receive the good american award, but that at the last minute it was necessary for him to cancel his attendance--he was unable to attend, and did not come to dallas on that occasion. there was some publicity in connection with the giving of the award prior to the event. but i take it from your testimony that at least you did not pursue with marina or with mr. martin their fixing the time of the event in which marina, according to the information given you, locked your brother lee in the bathroom to prevent him from any violence on mr. nixon. mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. mckenzie. mr. jenner, if i may, with mr. dulles' approval, interrupt you one more time for another statement. i recall when mr. nixon was coming to dallas at the invitation of mr. carlson and others to receive this award. however, mr. nixon did come to dallas some time within weeks prior to november , . the exact date i cannot fix, because i don't recall the exact date. but it is my best recollection that he was there in that period of time. mr. jenner. mr. mckenzie, that may well be so. our information indicates to the contrary--that he was in dallas on the st of november . mr. mckenzie. that is what i say, sir. mr. jenner. you said several weeks prior. mr. mckenzie. i said some time within weeks prior to november d. mr. jenner. well, our information is that he was in dallas on the st of november , and not prior to that time. but we will---- mr. dulles. i think there is a misunderstanding there. you are technically correct. it was the day before. mr. mckenzie. i couldn't remember the exact date, mr. dulles, and i wasn't going to be tied down to any exact date. mr. dulles. you are technically correct. mr. mckenzie. november was before november . mr. jenner. well, the inference of the weeks---- mr. mckenzie. mr. jenner, the reason i say weeks--as i explained to mr. dulles, i don't know exactly when it was, but i know it was prior to november d, dick nixon was in dallas. mr. jenner. well, mr. chairman, we will obtain that information and make it part of the record. now, mr. oswald, in view of what you have related with regard to this particular event, i ask you this question: would you please state why you did not report this circumstance to any agency or agent of the u.s. government up to the time that you gave your diary to mr. mckenzie and he turned it over to the fbi? mr. oswald. an assumption on my part at the time this was told to me was that some federal agents were aware of this. nobody told me that they were aware of it. i repeat, again, it was an assumption on my part that somebody was perhaps aware of this, as they were, before i was--aware of the alleged shot at general walker of the same year. mr. jenner. i see. did you discuss this event with mrs. oswald, that is, your wife, vada? mr. oswald. briefly i did, sir. mr. jenner. now, when did you do that? mr. oswald. some time around the latter part of january , at which time---- mr. jenner. excuse me. that is several weeks after you made this entry in your diary, and after the event occurred? mr. oswald. two or three weeks after i made this entry in my diary january , yes, sir, that is correct. mr. jenner. what were the circumstances that led you to discuss the matter with her? mr. oswald. my wife had read my diary, and she had come to this entry on january , , and she asked me to fill in the blanks and state who it was, at which time i did. mr. dulles. did i understand you to say earlier that your wife also prepared a diary? mr. oswald. no, sir, she did not. she had read my diary, sir. mr. jenner. until you retained mr. mckenzie, had you retained counsel? mr. oswald. i had consulted counsel. mr. jenner. and what counsel? mr. oswald. mr. weldon knight, of denton, tex. mr. jenner. had you exhibited to mr. knight the diary we have been discussing? mr. oswald. no, sir; he was not aware of the diary we are discussing. mr. jenner. i take it from your testimony you did not discuss this particular event with mr. knight. mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. did you ever exhibit your diary to mr. thorne? mr. oswald. no, sir; i did not. mr. jenner. did you ever discuss the existence of the diary with mr. thorne? mr. oswald. no, sir; i did not. mr. jenner. prior to the time you delivered the diary to mr. mckenzie, had you disclosed to anybody other than mrs. oswald, your wife vada, the existence of the diary? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i did. mr. mckenzie. to whom? mr. oswald. mrs. marina oswald, approximately the first week of february , or january --i advised her that i---- mr. mckenzie. you say approximately the first week of january or february. you mean approximately the first week of february or the last week of january? mr. oswald. yes, sir--thank you--that i was writing down various happenings that had occurred since november , . mr. jenner. and you were in the process of preparing a memorandum, really, rather than a diary, of past events? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. all right. did you do any more than just tell her that you were preparing such a statement or memorandum? mr. oswald. no, sir; i did not. mr. jenner. you did not have occasion, then, at that time to discuss further with her the richard m. nixon matter? mr. oswald. no, sir; i did not. mr. jenner. since we have referred to this document, mr. chairman, could i pursue it, at least as to how it came into existence? mr. dulles. do you propose to introduce it in evidence? mr. jenner. yes, i do. i propose now to qualify the diary which you so kindly produced yesterday, mr. mckenzie. mr. mckenzie. certainly. mr. jenner. mr. oswald, yesterday morning your counsel, mr. mckenzie, delivered to me as an agent of the commission a ringed notebook, which you have before you, do you not? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. and is that notebook still intact as it was when you delivered it to me yesterday? mr. oswald. yes, sir; it is. mr. jenner. does any part of that notebook contain any entries relating to anything involving your brother? mr. oswald. yes, sir; it does. mr. jenner. would you note the particular pages and put a paper clip on them, please? would you read the first paragraph of the first page which has been clipped? mr. oswald. "dated december , , for the history of the past weeks as seen through my eyes, and heard with my ears, and felt with my body, i write for future reference for myself and for the future members of the family." mr. jenner. would you read the last sentence of the last page you have clipped? mr. oswald. "marina said she was shocked when the fbi told her this story." mr. jenner. may i approach the witness, mr. chairman? mr. dulles. please. what was "this story"? mr. jenner. may we consider that a question to the witness, please? mr. dulles. yes. mr. oswald. if i may read the entire entry dated january , . mr. jenner. is this entry in your handwriting? mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. was it made contemporaneously with the event recorded? mr. oswald. yes, sir; it was. mr. jenner. this event took place on sunday, january , ? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and you made an entry contemporaneously or shortly thereafter? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. for what purpose? mr. oswald. for the purpose of writing down a reference for myself and for my family on all events that i could learn about in relation to lee's life. mr. jenner. mr. chairman, before the paragraph is read, if i may--is there another entry in your handwriting on that page? mr. oswald. yes, sir; there is. mr. jenner. is it the only other entry on that page? mr. oswald. yes, sir; it is. mr. jenner. is it the entry of january--sunday, january , , relative to mr. nixon about which you have already testified? mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is correct. mr. jenner. and which you have read in full into the record? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i have. mr. jenner. now, you are going to read for the purpose of the record the balance of that page, are you not? mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is correct. mr. jenner. all right. mr. oswald. "sunday, january , . marina and the martins had gone to kathy ford's house in richardson, when we arrived at the martin's house around p.m. they returned approximately about : p.m. on the way to the grocery, jim said the fbi had asked marina during the week if she knew"---- mr. jenner. is there a blank there? mr. oswald. no, sir. i had omitted a word. mr. jenner. what was the word? mr. oswald. "that lee". mr. jenner. was it an inadvertent omission? mr. oswald. yes, it was. mr. jenner. and the omission was what word? mr. oswald. "if she knew lee had"---- mr. jenner. you now have a specific recollection you intended to write the word "lee"? mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is correct. "if she knew lee had tried to commit suicide while in russia prior to their marriage. she did not, and it was the first i knew about it. marina later confirmed this, and said that she had asked lee two or three times what was the cut on his wrist, pointing to the cut on his left wrist. lee would become very mad and tell her nothing. the fbi read this in marina's book." mr. mckenzie. "read this in marina's book." you misread there. "the fbi read this in lee's book." mr. jenner. that is correct? mr. oswald. that is correct. "understand he had a date with another girl around p.m. (this is in moscow.)" mr. jenner. is that in parentheses? mr. oswald. yes, sir; it is. mr. jenner. the words "this is in moscow" are in parentheses? mr. oswald. yes, sir. "and right before she was due to arrive, he cut his wrist. marina said she was 'shocked' when the fbi told her this story." mr. jenner. i will not question the witness further about that entry--unless you wish to pursue it at the moment. mr. dulles. no, follow your own order. there is one question i would ask that relates to the past. that is what you testified to just a moment before. this is with regard to locking in the bathroom for a day. did marina indicate that that was for the purpose of keeping lee away from possibly nixon, if he was to be there that day, or was it to cool him down? did you get any impression as to what the purpose was of the locking in the bathroom? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i most certainly did. her intentions as related to me was to keep him from shooting at mr. nixon. mr. jenner. on that particular day, or on some future occasion? mr. oswald. i would say on the particular day--pardon me. i misunderstood the question. mr. mckenzie. i think he misunderstood the question. mr. jenner. all right. was it your impression that mr. nixon was to be in dallas on that particular day, and that that is the day that marina locked him in the bathroom? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. was she locking him in the bathroom to cool him off so he would not attempt it when mr. nixon might be in town some later date? mr. oswald. no, sir, it was her intention, or my impression of her intentions, that she locked him in the bathroom on that date, to keep him on that date from shooting at mr. richard m. nixon. mr. jenner. so your impression was this was an imminent event? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. dulles. or that she thought it was an imminent event? mr. oswald. yes, that, thank you. mr. dulles. that is all i have now. mr. jenner. i take it from your testimony that this ringed notebook, and in part a diary, is a record first of past events--that you prepared it subsequently to the events recorded therein. mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is correct. mr. jenner. now, start from the beginning, that is the first page, the first paragraph of which you have read, in order to identify it. i notice a date--december , . do you find it, sir? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. is that the date on which you prepared at least the first page or started this memorandum? mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is correct. mr. jenner. now, would you please take that memorandum or notebook and identify each page that you wrote at the first sitting--that is, what you first recorded in the book on the first occasion you wrote in it. mr. oswald. on the eighth page, approximately midway down, in the left-hand margin i have a date of - . mr. jenner. all right. now, i take it, therefore, that your first entries were made--that you made, covered the pages commencing with the page dated at the top december , , and proceeding consecutively to the eighth page, and in the center of that page approximately, at the margin, there appears the figures - . mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. you wrote all the intervening material at one sitting? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. and the - refers, i take it, to december , ? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. and that is the day following your having made the first entries? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. which is december , . are all the pages that intervene in your handwriting? mr. oswald. yes, sir; they are. mr. mckenzie. mr. jenner, if i may, and for the purpose of the record, to help speed up the proceedings, i will state on behalf of mr. oswald that all the pages of the diary which you have there in front of you, and which should be and will be marked an exhibit to the commission's record, are in mr. oswald's handwriting, they were written simultaneously on the date as shown in the diary, and were his recollections of the event as it occurred on that date. is that correct robert? mr. jenner. i appreciate your suggestion, mr. mckenzie, but there are some breaks that i would like to identify. mr. mckenzie. pardon me, sir. mr. jenner. i have marked the document now as commission exhibit . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. dulles. and you wish to ask that it be admitted in evidence? mr. jenner. if i may defer that for a moment. are all of the pages of the diary which you have separated and clipped together at my request in your handwriting? mr. oswald. yes, sir; they are. mr. jenner. now, proceeding from the eighth page, which contains the date entry december , , would you please identify what you wrote on the particular occasion--that is, december , ? i take it the balance of that page? mr. oswald. the balance of that page, the following entire page, and the first part of the next page. mr. jenner. down to what? mr. oswald. "for me to come to his office" and a date---- mr. jenner. is the date - - ? mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is correct. mr. dulles. are these pages numbered? mr. jenner. they are not. mr. mckenzie. i think we should have them numbered at this time, if the commission would so desire, sir. we can number them--robert can number them at the bottom of the page consecutively all the way through, and likewise number the exhibit. mr. jenner. i would like to number the photostat that we have rather than to place any markings on the original. mr. mckenzie. that is fine. mr. jenner. would it help you, mr. chairman, if i examined from the seat beside you, so you can see the exhibit? the occasion next after december , , when you made an entry in your notebook, i take it, was on december , . mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. and would you please indicate commencing with that entry in the upper portion of the page how much--what portions of the notebook you wrote on that occasion? mr. oswald. on the page referred to, from the date of - - , on the th page following that, i have an asterisk in the left-hand column. mr. jenner. would you read the first line of that page? mr. oswald. "complete with marina." mr. jenner. and the last line? mr. oswald. "around a.m., the first great shock of the day"---- mr. jenner. just the last line. mr. oswald. "also they were having a hard time locating". mr. jenner. now, there is an asterisk in the left-hand margin? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. approximately the center of the page? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. i gather from your testimony that the entry you made then on th of december , commenced at the point that you have that date in the margin, and runs to, throughout the pages consecutively--down to the asterisk of the page you have now identified. mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. when did you make the entry that is opposite the asterisk, and that follows the asterisk? mr. oswald. i do not recall the exact date, sir. i do recall stopping at that period and making the balance of the entries at a later date after december , , and prior to january , . mr. dulles. were they all made at one time? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. dulles. the post asterisk entries? mr. oswald. yes, sir. from the asterisk until the completion of the diary to the date of january , , was made at one time. mr. jenner. and it recorded past events. it was not made contemporaneously with the events recorded? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. so that the first entries in this notebook that are diary entries in the sense that they are made contemporaneously with the event, to immediately record the event, are those appearing on the last page, consisting of two entries, one dated sunday, january , , and one dated sunday, january , ? mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is correct. i have noted an error in those dates to the extent that there is only days in between those two sundays. one date is wrong. mr. jenner. you mean either january , , is incorrect or sunday, january , , is incorrect? mr. oswald. yes, sir. it was an error on my part. and if i may refer to a calendar, i will correct the dates. mr. jenner. is that a ' calendar you have there? mr. oswald. no, sir; this is a ' . i would correct the first date as appeared in my diary of sunday, january , , to be corrected to january , , and the second date of january would be correct, sir. mr. jenner. so wherever in your testimony this morning you have referred to the sunday, january date, that is to be corrected to january , ? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. for the purpose of further identification of the exhibit, and in the context of mr. mckenzie's and my agreement to substitute a photostatic copy for the original. i will undertake to number the pages of the exhibit on the photostatic copy. mr. mckenzie. would you like robert to do that? mr. jenner. well, i would like to have him follow, so that the numbers on the photostat correspond with the pages consecutively in the original. as i number the pages, mr. oswald, would you follow me, so that the page numbers i place on the exhibit are correct in that they are in sequence with the original? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. the first page i am marking no. . the next page, no. . the next, no. . would you observe each time that the photostat is a photostat of the original? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i am observing it. mr. jenner. page is next. five is next. six is next. seven is next. eight is next. nine is next. ten is next. eleven is next. twelve is next. thirteen is next. fourteen. fifteen. sixteen. seventeen. eighteen. nineteen. twenty. now, page is the reverse side of the page numbered on its face , is it not? mr. oswald. no, sir; that is not correct. it is an insertion to the page that has not been numbered yet, page . mr. jenner. but isn't it a fact that the entry on the page now numbered is on the reverse side of the page numbered on its face ? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i am sorry. you are correct, sir. mr. jenner. but the point you are making is that the entry on page now numbered relates to page ? mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is correct. mr. jenner. all right. we will now mark page . twenty-two. mr. dulles. what are you marking that insert as far as our copy is concerned? mr. jenner. as page . mr. dulles. wouldn't it be better to make it -a? mr. jenner. i thought from the record that i had made clear that page number was the reverse side of page numbered on its face . mr. dulles. all right. just so you are clear. mr. jenner. have we covered page ? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. twenty-three. twenty-four. twenty-five. twenty-six. twenty-seven. as i proceeded in numbering the photostat, you placed, did you not, in your own handwriting--followed me and placed the same page numbers in your own handwriting on the pages in question as you wrote the numbers on them--the same pages--on the photostat? mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is correct. mr. dulles. off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. dulles. back on the record. mr. jenner. mr. oswald, do the entries that you have made in the notebook on pages through now identified represent your recollection of the events recorded at the time that you recorded the events? mr. oswald. yes, sir; they do. mr. jenner. have you had an opportunity to review those entries since they were made? mr. oswald. no, sir; i have not. mr. jenner. have you reread any portions of any of these entries, other than or in addition to those you read to the commission this morning? mr. oswald. no, sir; i have not. mr. dulles. mr. chairman, i now offer in evidence as commission exhibit no. the pages of the notebook which have been identified by the witness, and which have been numbered through . mr. dulles. exhibit no. will be accepted. (the document heretofore marked for identification as commission exhibit no. was received in evidence.) mr. jenner. now, i would like to direct your attention to page of your notebook. mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. at that point you were recording the course of events on what day? mr. oswald. friday, november , . mr. jenner. to orient you and the commission, the entry to which i refer, that is the paragraph, reads as follows. follow me, please. "mother and i talked briefly and after about minutes we were taken across the hall to where marina and the two children were. (this was the first i knew of the new baby.) a mrs. paine was also present. we talked a little and shortly mr. paine--who the police had been talking to, came out of the office and mrs. paine introduced us. i did not like the appearance of mr. paine, nothing really to put my finger on, but i just had a feeling. "i still do not know why or how"--what is that next word? mr. oswald. "but". mr. jenner. "but mr. and mrs. paine are somehow involved in this affair. shortly thereafter mother, marina, and the children and the paines left to go to the paines' house in irving, and i advised them i would stay there and see them tomorrow." when you recorded "i would stay there" you mean remain in dallas? what did you mean? mr. oswald. my full meaning there, sir, was that i would remain at the dallas police station, and take a hotel room in dallas, and spend the night. mr. jenner. now---- mr. dulles. may i ask just one question there for clarity? it refers to an office. is that the office of the dallas police? mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is correct. mr. dulles. the dallas police station? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. i take it from this entry you had not heretofore ever met either mr. or mrs. paine? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. and would you elaborate upon, please, your statement recorded on december , , that you did not like the appearance of mr. paine "nothing really to put my finger on, but i just had a feeling. i still do not know why or how, but mr. and mrs. paine are somehow involved in this affair." mr. oswald. well, i was introduced to mr. paine at the dallas police office on the night of november , . his wife introduced us. his handshake was very weak and what i might term a live fish handshake. mr. jenner. live or dead? mr. oswald. and his general appearance, his face, and most particularly his eyes to me had what i would term a distant look to them, and that he wasn't really looking at you when he was. mr. mckenzie. mr. jenner, if you will, please, would you ask the witness whether he meant a live fish or a cold dead fish. mr. oswald. sir, i believe i mean a live fish. a cold, dead fish would be stiff. mr. mckenzie. all right. mr. jenner. we are seeking to obtain the basis upon which you made this entry. mr. oswald. it was mr. paine's general appearance and the manner in which he held himself, and by this i mean the way he stood and the way he looked at you, and you had that feeling, as i stated before, that he was not really looking at you. mr. dulles. you say there that mrs. paine introduced mr. paine to you. when had you previously made the acquaintance of mrs. paine--just before this? mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is correct. mr. dulles. on that same day? mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is correct. mr. jenner. and you record that in your memorandum, do you not, on a previous page? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i do. mr. jenner. the fact of the introduction? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i do so. mr. jenner. i think the commission would be interested further in explaining your remark "i still do not know why or how, but mr. and mrs. paine are somehow involved in this affair." what did you mean by that? that is on page . mr. oswald. yes, sir; i just wanted to verify that this was still under my date, original entry of december , . at the time i wrote the statement, "i still do not know why or how, but mr. and mrs. paine are somehow involved in this affair." i meant by this statement that i had gathered that after our meeting of november , , at the dallas police station, to the date of december , , that mr. paine and mrs. paine were separated, and that i had read approximately at this time--and i am not sure that i had read this particular thing in the newspaper prior to december , --but i feel like i did--that in a dallas paper it referred to an incident at a grand prairie rifle range where some people had identified lee as being at this rifle range, and that on one occasion a man, and the description was given in the newspaper, had handed lee harvey oswald a rifle over this fence where he was standing inside the rifle range. as i read this description in the newspaper, i reached the conclusion from that description that it was mr. paine. mr. jenner. any other basis that you now recall upon which you predicated the statement that, "somehow mr. and mrs. paine are involved in this affair." mr. oswald. yes, sir; if the newspaper i read at that particular time is dated after december , , the statement that i just read a few minutes ago, "i still do not know why or how, but mr. and mrs. paine are somehow involved in this affair"--i made that statement then based on my meeting mr. and mrs. paine at the dallas police station on friday night, november , . mr. jenner. now, would you please describe mr. paine as he appeared on that particular occasion--first, his physical appearance, and then follow with how he was dressed. give his height, weight, color of eyes and hair, as you recall them. mr. oswald. i recall mr. paine to be approximately feet in height. i do not recall the color of his hair. he is of slender build. perhaps i would establish his weight around or pounds. his facial appearance was quite drawn--and this is a conclusion on my part, because i had not met him before--he appeared to be quite drawn in the face. his eyes, i would say, would have to me a hollow look. mr. jenner. what color were his eyes? mr. oswald. i do not know, sir. mr. jenner. you don't presently recall? mr. oswald. no, sir; i do not. mr. jenner. you made no note of it at the time? mr. oswald. no, sir; i did not. mr. jenner. what was his complexion--ruddy, pale? mr. oswald. i would say his complexion would be ruddy complected. mr. jenner. was he clean shaven? mr. oswald. to the best of my recollection, he was, sir. mr. jenner. no mustache, no beard? mr. oswald. no, sir. mr. jenner. what else did you notice about his appearance? how did he part his hair? do you recall? mr. oswald. no, sir; i do not. mr. jenner. do you recall whether he did part it? mr. oswald. no, sir; i do not. i believe this to be correct--that i never did get any higher than looking at mr. paine's eyes, and i do not believe i looked at his hair or above his eyes at any time. mr. jenner. how long were you with mr. paine on that occasion? mr. oswald. approximately five minutes. mr. jenner. had you ever seen mr. paine subsequently thereto? mr. oswald. yes, sir, i have. mr. jenner. on how many occasions? mr. oswald. on one other occasion, sir. mr. jenner. when? mr. oswald. this would be approximately a sunday afternoon in the middle of december . mr. jenner. that would be approximately a week after you made this entry? mr. oswald. yes, sir. in the presence of mr. jim h. martin, and mr. john thorne. we traveled from mr. martin's home to the paines' house in irving to pick up marina's and lee's clothes that were still there. mr. jenner. still at the paines' home? mr. oswald. still at the paines' home. i saw mr. and mrs. paine again on that day--i mean at that time. that was my second and only time i have ever seen them. mr. and mrs. paine helped gather up the belongings of marina and the children and lee's personal belongings that were still there. mr. jenner. to make it clear, mr. oswald, did mr. paine accompany you with mr. martin and mr. thorne to the paine home, or did you meet mr. paine when you arrived there? mr. oswald. we met mr. paine and mrs. paine on our arrival at their home in irving, texas. mr. jenner. how long were you there? mr. oswald. approximately minutes to an hour. mr. jenner. how was he clothed on that occasion? mr. oswald. in a sport shirt and a pair of slacks, sir. mr. jenner. and how was he clothed on the occasion that you record here on page ? mr. oswald. i believe also at that time, sir, that he had a sport shirt on and a pair of slacks, and perhaps a sport jacket or jacket of some type. mr. jenner. was his head covered on either occasion? mr. oswald. no. sir, it was not. mr. jenner. what did you notice, if anything, as to whether he had straight hair or a full head of hair on him? was he bald? you have already said you don't recall the color of his hair, am i correct on that? mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. in referring to the second meeting of mr. paine and myself, in reference to his hair, i would say his hair was practically a full set of hair, dark and short. mr. jenner. when you say short, you mean cut short, or a crew cut? mr. oswald. no, sir, just cut short. mr. jenner. how do you describe your own head of hair, as to its cut? is it cut short? mr. oswald. presently, i would describe wearing mine at a medium length, for myself. mr. mckenzie. how about mr. jenner's? mr. oswald. i would describe his as being in medium length. mr. jenner. i think you are right. mr. dulles. may i ask one question there? had you known prior to november d that marina was living with mrs. paine? mr. oswald. no, sir; i did not. mr. dulles. you had not known that before november d? mr. oswald. that is correct, i did not. mr. jenner. did you know at the time you were introduced to mr. paine? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i did. mr. jenner. and you had become advised in that respect by whom? mr. oswald. by mrs. paine. mr. jenner. are those the only two occasions you have had any contact with mr. paine? mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is correct. mr. jenner. would you describe her, please? mr. oswald. a tall woman, approximately pounds--and by tall i mean approximately foot , or feet in height. mr. jenner. weighing only pounds? mr. oswald. yes, sir, very slender. a slender face, also--not a full face. mr. jenner. when you say also, are you now referring to mr. paine? mr. oswald. no, sir; i was referring to my statement that mrs. paine was slender, and also that she was slender in the face. mr. jenner. all right. thank you. mr. oswald. long hair, i believe to be brown in color. mr. jenner. how did she do her hair, was it in braids? mr. oswald. no, sir. i believe it was just hanging down long. mr. jenner. when you say long, how long? mr. oswald. shoulder height. mr. jenner. mr. oswald, would you accommodate us--not to do it now, but at noontime, if you have the time, to read through, your diary to the court reporter, because some of the writing i have difficulty interpreting. the commission would appreciate it if you would interpret your own writing on the exhibit. mr. oswald. all right, sir. i understand that you want me to read the entire diary, is that correct? mr. jenner. yes, to the court reporter--as part of the record, mr. chairman. mr. dulles. you may proceed. mr. jenner. what kind of a student were you, mr. oswald? mr. oswald. i believe my average in school was--if i may, sir, ask you--are you talking about my over-all average? mr. jenner. yes, sir, i seek only the over-all. mr. oswald. i would say a c or c-plus, sir. mr. jenner. are you acquainted with the scholarship in that respect of your brother john? mr. oswald. no, sir; i am not. i could, if you wish me to, make an opinion on what i think it would be. mr. jenner. this opinion being based upon your attending school with him, as you testified yesterday? mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is correct. mr. jenner. and discussions with him back and forth between the both of you as to how you were getting along? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. common interest in your progress scholarshipwise? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. what is your present recollection as to his scholarship? mr. oswald. that would be a c-plus or a b. mr. jenner. a touch higher than yours? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. did you have an opportunity during your lifetime to form a like opinion as to the scholarship of your brother lee? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i have. mr. jenner. and what was his scholarship? mr. oswald. i would say a c to a c-plus, in the same category that i place myself. mr. jenner. mr. oswald and mr. mckenzie, mr. chairman, have furnished us with the originals of a series of letters and postcards which mr. oswald, the witness, received from his brother lee harvey oswald. we have prepared photostatic copies on a xerox machine of each of those letters, and each envelope relating to that letter. and in the case of postcards the front and reverse side of postcards. we were further accommodated, by--yesterday afternoon following the close of the session--by sitting down with mr. oswald and in his presence comparing the photostatic copy of each document with the original, the original being in the possession of mr. oswald. and i am marking each of those documents with an exhibit number. mr. dulles. could you give us, mr. jenner, the first and last dates, so we have an idea of the period covered? i have a general idea, of course. mr. jenner. yes. two of these items are not in exact sequence, but---- mr. dulles. two have been introduced already, have they not? mr. mckenzie. yes, i think you are right, mr. dulles. mr. jenner. that is correct. a letter of november , , introduced in evidence yesterday. i don't recall what the second one was, but at least---- mr. dulles. were they marked at that time as exhibits? mr. jenner. that was marked as an exhibit. and mr. liebeler has it. the november letter, mr. chairman, is marked commission exhibit no. , and it is in evidence. mr. dulles. there was only one letter, or were there two? mr. jenner. there was just one letter. i think, if you please, you have reference to a telegram, which is exhibit no. . mr. dulles. that is it--the telegram. mr. jenner. being a telegram dated june . mr. dulles. and these other exhibits cover what period? mr. jenner. they commence--the first, commission exhibit no. , is a letter of eight pages dated november , , and concluding with exhibit no. , a letter of two pages dated march , . mr. dulles. were those all from russia? mr. jenner. they were all from russia, save the letter dated march , , being exhibit no. , a letter of two pages. all the others are from russia. mr. dulles. where was that letter from--do you recall? mr. jenner. it is postmarked--the envelope "lee h. oswald, p.o. box , dallas, texas." and the cancellation stamp likewise says dallas, texas. the date is that which i have already recited. mr. dulles. that was after lee harvey's return from the soviet union? mr. jenner. yes, he returned in june of . mr. dulles. and that letter is dated what? mr. jenner. march , . would you follow me, mr. oswald? in each instance, when we compared the letters and the envelopes, it is a fact, is it not, mr. oswald, that the letter in question was contained in the envelope of which we have a photostatic copy--and was received by you intact? that is, the envelope was sealed, and the letter content was in the envelope, that you personally opened the envelope and removed the letter content? that in each instance, the letter content is in the handwriting of your brother, lee harvey oswald, entirely, with the exception of commission exhibit , which is a letter of three pages dated may , , upon the last page of which there is a paragraph in the handwriting of marina oswald, written in the russian language? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i take that to be mrs. marina oswald's writing at that time. mr. jenner. and there appears on that page following that paragraph written in russian what purports to be an english interpretation of it? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. furthermore, that in each instance the envelope and the letter content is--are in the same condition now as they were when you received them? mr. mckenzie. except for opening. mr. jenner. except for the opening of the envelope which was necessary for you to do in order to remove the content. is my statement correct? mr. oswald. with this exception, sir. that a number of the letters were not opened by me personally. by that, i mean my wife opened them when she received the mail at the house. i have marked the chronological date on the front of them in the last few days. mr. jenner. so that there appears on these exhibits in your handwriting a date on the envelope and in some instances on the letter content? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. which you wrote thereon, and which was not on either the envelope or the letter at the time it was received by you? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. those exhibit numbers--excuse me. there are three postcards--commission exhibit no. , dated december , , which is a christmas card, commission exhibit , which is a postcard dated october , , and commission exhibit , a postcard dated april , . each of those was received by you in due course, mr. oswald, as you related to me yesterday. i want you to confirm this. and is in the handwriting of your brother, lee harvey oswald. and except for notations of dates which appear thereon or may appear thereon in your handwriting, they are in the same condition now as when you received them? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. now, i wish you would--i want to exhibit to you the postcard dated april , , which is commission exhibit no. . mr. dulles. as i understand it, these letters have not yet been formally introduced in evidence. mr. jenner. they have not, sir. mr. dulles. very well. i might add, mr. mckenzie, that, of course, one does not know whether those letters were opened by the authorities in the soviet union before being forwarded. i think that ought to be on the record. mr. mckenzie. yes, sir. mr. jenner. commission exhibit no. i now hand you, mr. oswald. there is a date appearing thereon which reads, according to my interpretation --and then i cannot quite decipher it. would you look at the original, please? mr. dulles. the european system of marking is different from the american system. mr. jenner. that is what i seek to bring out, sir. do you now have the original before you? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. would you read the figures to which i point? the first is ? mr. oswald. / / . mr. jenner. indicating what date? mr. oswald. april , , in accordance with the european system of dating. mr. jenner. of putting the day first, the month second, and the year last? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. dulles. do you recall whether these letters were opened by cutting or opened by unsealing? mr. oswald. i believe without exception, sir, looking at the originals, that they were opened by unsealing, rather than cutting. mr. dulles. i was asking because it is sometimes possible, by modern methods, to determine whether a letter has been opened and resealed, and if the letter is cut, that can be done. if the letter has been torn open where the seal is, you cannot do anything with it. you cannot always do this, but there are certain techniques. mr. mckenzie. mr. chairman, did you have reference to when robert opened the letters? mr. dulles. well, what i had reference to is to whether if the letters were cut and not resealed, then there is a certain possibility of ascertaining whether the letter has been previously opened by a censor, and then resealed. i was just getting at that. mr. jenner. mr. dulles is interested, i see, in whether the letters had been censored in russia before they arrived in the united states. mr. dulles. that was my point. mr. jenner. may i inquire of the witness on that subject further? mr. mckenzie. let me state this for the record. when robert oswald or his wife opened the letters, as you can plainly see from the letters here in front of you, they were either opened by letter opener--a knife or a letter opener, or just torn open. mr. jenner. mr. chairman, it is entirely possible and might even be probable that the commission would be interested in examining the originals on this subject--that is, to determine through experts as to whether the envelopes had been opened and censored, and the contents censored, before being resealed, if they had been so opened, and dispatched to the united states. and i take it that your inquiry was directed towards that. mr. dulles. that is correct. mr. jenner. may i inquire of mr. mckenzie, in the light of that fact, as to whether these originals of these letters would be available to us so that we may have expert examination of them for that purpose? mr. mckenzie. yes, sir; i will make them available at any time that the commission so desires. and i would like further to say, mr. chairman, that it is my opinion, based on a reading of these letters--and i feel that robert oswald concurs in my opinion here--that many of the letters were censored, because the letters actually have reference to the censor in many instances. and i speak of that--the censor in the soviet union. mr. dulles. yes. i have not yet read the letters. mr. jenner. the photostats that we have of the letters will reveal that to which mr. mckenzie is now referring. we took the face of each envelope and in most instances of the reverse side of the envelope. and in each instance the front and reverse side of each postcard. mr. dulles. and in each case i believe we will have in our records, will we not, the date when it was mailed and the date of receipt? mr. jenner. to the extent that is revealed by the face and reverse side of the envelope; yes, sir. mr. dulles. because if you have a case where a letter takes four or five days, longer than another letter, that may mean nothing, or it may mean quite a good deal. mr. mckenzie. in some instances, mr. chairman, it took five days to receive a letter from the soviet union to fort worth, texas. mr. dulles. that is par for the course, i guess. mr. mckenzie. yes, sir. but i might also add sometimes it takes five days for a letter to get from downtown dallas to the suburbs in dallas, texas. mr. jenner. now, mr.---- mr. oswald. pardon me, sir, if i may, i would like to say something to my attorney. mr. jenner. surely. mr. dulles. off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. dulles. back on the record. proceed, mr. jenner. mr. jenner. would you turn to the letter of september , , please? that is commission exhibit . mr. oswald. all right, sir. mr. jenner. do you have it? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. in addition--did anything accompany that letter in the way of photographs? mr. oswald. yes, sir, there was. mr. jenner. is a reference made to those photographs in the letter? mr. oswald. yes, sir; there is. mr. jenner. and do you still have the photographs? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i do. mr. jenner. and you have them there before you? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i do. mr. jenner. and how many are there, and what do they depict? mr. oswald. there is a total of three photographs depicting purportedly pictures in minsk, russia. mr. jenner. is there any handwriting on the reverse side of any of these exhibits? mr. oswald. yes, sir; on two of the three photographs there is. mr. jenner. i will mark this exhibit as commission exhibit , the next as -a and the next as -b. (the documents referred to were marked commission exhibits and -a and -b for identification.) mr. jenner. the witness now has before him a photograph marked commission exhibit , on the reverse side of which appears some handwriting. do you recognize that handwriting? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i do. mr. jenner. whose is it? mr. oswald. i recognize it to be lee harvey oswald's. mr. jenner. would you read it? mr. oswald. "trade union hall on the main street." mr. jenner. and on the opposite side on which this handwriting appears is a picture of a public building? mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is correct. mr. jenner. i turn your attention to the document marked commission exhibit no. -a. on the reverse side of that does there appear some handwriting? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. whose handwriting is it? mr. oswald. i recognize that to be lee harvey oswald's. mr. jenner. would you read it, please? mr. oswald. "a square in minsk." mr. jenner. and on the opposite side is also depicted a public building? mr. oswald. yes, sir, that is correct. mr. jenner. exhibit no. -b, does the reverse side of that exhibit contain any handwriting? mr. oswald. no, sir, it does not. mr. jenner. the face of the exhibit, however, depicts a plaza with some public buildings? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. would you replace those photographs, please, in the envelope with the original? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. now, would you turn to the letter dated january , , being commission exhibit no. ? mr. oswald. all right, sir. mr. jenner. were there any contents accompanying this letter in addition to the letter itself? mr. oswald. i believe it did contain, sir--since there is no reference within the letter itself---- mr. jenner. it is your recollection? mr. oswald. yes, sir; it is my recollection that it did contain two photographs. mr. jenner. is it not a fact, sir, that when you exhibited the original of the letter, the original of the envelope, and removed the contents yesterday afternoon in my presence, that the two photographs to which you now refer were contained in the envelope? mr. oswald. yes, sir, that is correct. mr. jenner. now, mr. liebeler, would you give us those a and b numbers, please? mr. liebeler. -a and b. (the documents referred to were marked commission exhibits -a and -b, for identification.) mr. jenner. directing your attention to commission exhibit -a, that is a photograph, is it not? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. is there handwriting on the reverse side of that photograph? mr. oswald. yes, sir; there is. mr. jenner. do you recognize the handwriting? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i do. mr. jenner. whose is it? mr. oswald. lee harvey oswald's. mr. jenner. what does it say? mr. oswald. "april , . marina--lee." mr. jenner. now, turn to the face of the exhibit, do you recognize the persons depicted in that photograph? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i do. mr. jenner. who are they? mr. oswald. left to right, lee harvey oswald and marina n. oswald. mr. jenner. and is the exhibit in the same condition it was when you removed the exhibit from the envelope upon receipt of the envelope, except for the exhibit number? mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is correct. mr. jenner. would you turn to the other exhibit, commission exhibit no. -b? and does the reverse side of that exhibit contain some handwriting? mr. oswald. yes, sir; it does. mr. jenner. do you recognize the handwriting? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i do. mr. jenner. whose is it? mr. oswald. lee harvey oswald's. mr. jenner. what does it say? mr. oswald. "marina, wedding day, april , ." mr. jenner. would you turn to the face of the exhibit. do you recognize the person depicted on it? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i do. mr. jenner. who is it? mr. oswald. marina n. oswald. mr. jenner. is that exhibit in the same condition now as it was when you received it and removed it from the envelope in which it was contained, being the letter dated january , ? mr. oswald. yes, sir; it is. mr. jenner. mr. chairman, i offer in evidence the series of letters which i have identified, and which the witness has confirmed, and the contents, being the now five photographs which have been identified, as commission exhibits nos. , being a letter of eight pages, dated november , ; , a letter of one page--we don't have a more accurate date than the summer of ; , a letter of one page, dated december , ; , a letter of two pages, may , ; , a letter of three pages, dated may , . mr. mckenzie. pardon me, mr. jenner, just a second. the letter that you have referred to as being dated december , , does not have a date on it. it's received december , ? mr. jenner. that is in the witness' handwriting. mr. mckenzie. yes; in the witness' handwriting. mr. jenner. the letter itself is undated. mr. mckenzie. that is correct. mr. jenner. the words "received" and the figures december , , are written by you on the letter? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. and is that in fact the date it was received here in america by you? mr. oswald. it was, sir. mr. jenner. thank you for following me, mr. mckenzie. mr. mckenzie. yes, sir. mr. jenner. mr. chairman, exhibit is the letter which contains in part the paragraph written in russian which on its face purports to have been a notation by marina, which we have already identified. exhibit is a letter of two pages, dated june , . exhibit is a letter of two pages dated july , . exhibit is a letter of one page dated july , . exhibit is a letter of two pages dated august , . exhibit we have already identified. that is september , , the letter of three pages which contain the pictures of the public buildings and plaza in minsk, russia. exhibit is a letter of two pages dated october , . exhibit is a letter of three pages dated november , . mr. mckenzie. pardon me just a second, mr. jenner. don't you have one dated november , ? mr. jenner. yes, it is out of order. i will reach it in due course. i am correct that there is a letter of three pages dated november , ? mr. mckenzie. yes, sir. mr. jenner. exhibit is a letter of two pages dated november , . mr. mckenzie. yes, sir. mr. jenner. exhibit is a letter of two pages dated november , . that is the one to which you have reference. mr. mckenzie. yes, sir. mr. jenner. exhibit is a christmas card dated december , . it is contained in an envelope, i believe. mr. mckenzie. yes, sir, it is. mr. jenner. is my statement correct? mr. mckenzie. that is correct. mr. jenner. exhibit is a letter of two pages dated december , . mr. mckenzie. yes, sir. mr. jenner. exhibit is a letter of one page dated december , . mr. mckenzie. december , ? mr. jenner. yes, sir. mr. mckenzie. three pages? mr. jenner. one page. mr. mckenzie. that is correct. mr. jenner. exhibit is a letter of two pages dated january , . mr. mckenzie. that is correct. mr. jenner. january , . mr. mckenzie. that is correct. mr. jenner. exhibit is a letter of three pages which we have identified, dated january , , and contains the two photographs, one of marina on the wedding day and then one of both of them on their wedding day. exhibit is a letter of three pages dated february , . mr. mckenzie. yes, sir. mr. jenner. exhibit is a letter of two pages dated march , . mr. mckenzie. yes, sir. mr. jenner. exhibit is a letter of two pages, dated april , . mr. mckenzie. again, on the letter of march , , the date on that letter is the date written by robert oswald the day he received that letter. the letter itself is actually undated. but the envelope is dated by robert oswald. mr. jenner. that is correct, mr. oswald? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. and is the envelope postmarked? mr. oswald. yes, sir; it is. mr. jenner. and the postmark is---- mr. oswald. march , , sir. mr. jenner. thank you. mr. dulles. that is date of receipt? mr. mckenzie. yes, sir. mr. jenner. exhibit is a letter of two pages dated april , . mr. mckenzie. yes, sir. mr. jenner. exhibit is a letter of two pages dated may , . mr. mckenzie. yes, sir. mr. jenner. exhibit is the front and reverse side of a postcard dated october , . mr. mckenzie. no, sir. april , . mr. jenner. that is the postcard the witness---- mr. mckenzie. has previously identified as being in the european tradition of dating. mr. jenner. exhibit is a letter of one page dated november , . or is that ' ? would you check me on that, please? mr. mckenzie. i don't find that. is it a letter or a postcard? that is november . that should be november , . the photocopy did not pick up all of it. and if you would like for us, we will change that to november . it should be november th. mr. jenner. would you make that change, please, in ink. mr. mckenzie. that is exhibit no. . mr. jenner. commission exhibit no. , a letter of one page, the original dated november th. what year? mr. mckenzie. just november th. but the postmark shows it was dated november , . mr. jenner. exhibit no. is a postcard dated april , . mr. oswald. to which you have previously referred. mr. jenner. have we got a duplication? mr. mckenzie. yes, sir. mr. jenner. are exhibits and duplicates? mr. mckenzie. i would have to look at the exhibit. i have the original here in front of me. mr. jenner. they are different exhibits. mr. mckenzie. this is exhibit . the other one is this one you have here, and it is dated october , . mr. jenner. all right. to make sure the record is clear, mr. chairman--exhibit no. , which is a postcard, is cancelled on its face at dallas on the th day of october , and it reads on the other side, "dear robert, for the new address you can write to box , dallas, texas. also please stop by the house and collect any mail which may have come in before the post office had a chance to change my address to dallas." and then in the center of the card "lee", with two x marks. is that correct? mr. mckenzie. that is correct. mr. jenner. now, that is exhibit . now, exhibit ---- mr. dulles. let me see. i would like to straighten that out. off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. dulles. back on the record. mr. jenner. exhibit no. is the postcard dated april , . mr. mckenzie. that is correct. mr. jenner. i might say, mr. chairman, i had marked the exhibits correctly. mr. mckenzie. and i concur in that remark. mr. jenner. exhibit no. is a letter of two pages dated march , . mr. mckenzie. dated march , . it is postmarked the th, but dated march , . mr. jenner. mr. chairman, i offer in evidence as commission exhibits, exhibits through , both inclusive, the documents that have been marked with the exhibit numbers so indicated, including the sub-exhibit numbers on the photographs which have been heretofore identified. mr. dulles. they may be received. (the documents referred to were marked commission exhibits through , inclusive, and received in evidence.) mr. mckenzie. mr. jenner, if i may, i would like to say something for the purpose of the record. robert oswald has brought these exhibits voluntarily. they are at the commission's convenience at any time. we do not know whether or not they have been censored in russia, but we are confident that they were, because some of the letters refer to the censor in russia. mr. jenner. that will appear, mr. chairman, from the photostats of the exhibits as offered in evidence. mr. dulles. thank you very much, mr. mckenzie. mr. mckenzie. yes, sir. mr. jenner. now, mr. mckenzie, among the original postcards and letters which you produced for us is a postcard dated january ---- mr. mckenzie. january th. mr. jenner. january , . and may i have that, please? mr. mckenzie. yes, sir; you may. mr. jenner. that will be marked as commission exhibit no. . (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification.) mr. jenner. does the witness have the original before him? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. examining commission exhibit no. , which purports to be a postcard, it is in fact a postcard, is it not? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. and do you recognize the handwriting on the face and reverse side of that postcard? mr. oswald. yes, sir, i do. mr. jenner. whose handwriting is it? mr. oswald. lee harvey oswald's. mr. jenner. did you receive that postcard in due course or about the cancellation date appearing on the face of the card? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i did. mr. jenner. and that cancellation date is january , , is it not? mr. oswald. no, sir; that is not correct. it is january , . mr. jenner. this photostat makes a look like a . this postcard was written to you, sent to you by your brother, lee harvey oswald, thanking you for a christmas gift, was it not? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. and is the postcard in the same condition now as it was when you received it? mr. oswald. exactly, sir. mr. jenner. mr. chairman, i offer in evidence as commission exhibit no. the document which we have so marked. mr. dulles. it may be received. (the document heretofore marked for identification as commission exhibit no. was received in evidence.) mr. jenner. we will return, mr. oswald, to the period about which inquiries were made of you by representative ford and representative boggs yesterday. that is, you had testified, as you will recall, of efforts on the part of your mother to reach your brother by telephone in russia when news reached america of his alleged defection. i am merely seeking to orient you at the moment. mr. oswald. yes, sir. thank you. mr. jenner. in due course, you received a letter communication from him, did you not? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i did. mr. jenner. including the letter of november , , about which i questioned you yesterday. now, i wish to proceed to the next letter, which is the letter of november , , a rather long letter. as a matter of fact, it consists of eight pages. would you get that letter before you, please? mr. oswald. all right, sir. i have the letter before me now, sir. mr. jenner. now, you will note from the letter that it purports to be, and from its contents it is indicated that your brother lee is responding to correspondence that he had in turn received from you. i ask you this question first. as to all of these letters which you have now identified this morning, or substantially all of them, had you been in correspondence with your brother in the sense that you also wrote him? mr. oswald. yes, sir, that is correct. mr. jenner. did you by any chance happen to retain a copy of, or copies of any of the letters you sent him? mr. oswald. no, sir, i did not. mr. jenner. so that at the moment we would have to call solely on your recollection as to what you might have written during this period of time while he was in russia? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. dulles. you made no copies of the letters yourself when you sent them--you just sent an original? there was no copy? mr. oswald. that is correct, no copies were made. mr. jenner. i suggested that you might, during the evening, read the letter of november th so as to refresh your recollection as to whether you had written him posing questions to which he responded. have you had that opportunity? mr. oswald. no, sir; i have not had that opportunity to read this letter. mr. jenner. i would prefer to pass this letter, then, mr. chairman, until the witness does have an opportunity to read it. would you try and do so at your first opportunity? mr. oswald. all right, sir. mr. mckenzie. it won't take but a minute here to do it. mr. jenner. all right. (discussion off the record.) mr. dulles. we will recess for lunch at this time. (whereupon, at : p.m., the president's commission recessed.) afternoon session testimony of robert edward lee oswald resumed the president's commission reconvened at : p.m. mr. dulles. you may proceed, mr. jenner. mr. jenner. mr. oswald, i have asked you--may i inquire of you whether during the noon hour recess you have read commission exhibit , which is a letter of november , , from your brother to you? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i have. mr. jenner. and have you also read the letter that preceded that one, to wit, the letter of november , , which is to you from your brother, which is commission exhibit no. ? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i have. mr. jenner. now, mr. chairman, the letter of november , which is the earlier of these two letters--this was written by lee harvey oswald shortly after he arrived in moscow in . in substance, he said in the letter that he supposed his brother robert, the witness here, did not wish to speak of his decision, that is, of lee harvey oswald's decision to remain in the soviet union and apply for citizenship there, since robert would not be able--and now i quote--"to comprehend my reasons"--that is lee harvey oswald's reasons. "you really don't know anything about me. do you know for instance, that i have wanted to do this for well over a year? do you know that i speak a fair amount of russian, which i have been studying for months?" the letter also said that he would not leave the soviet union under any conditions, and would never return to the united states, "which is a country i hate." he made reference to the fact that he received a telegram from robert in which robert had apparently said that he thought lee "was making a mistake." now, directing your attention to the november letter first, would you please state your reaction when you read that letter? (at this point the letters of november , and november , were physically set forth in the transcript of testimony. in order to achieve consistency in the handling of the exhibits upon the printing of the testimony, those letters are not reproduced in the printed transcript. they are reproduced in the exhibit section as commission exhibits nos. and .) mr. oswald. i recall my reactions to this letter, sir. it was something i more or less expected in general, since this was, more or less in general what the newspapers had been publishing. mr. jenner. is that the only reason you make that remark--that you had expected it in general solely because of what you read in the newspapers, or had there been any other factor that led you to have that expectation? mr. oswald. no, sir; there was no other factor that led be to believe that anything like this was going to happen prior to the happening. my reaction to the letter, as i have stated, was solely in general expecting from what i read in the newspaper that the letter would be something of this nature when i did hear from him. mr. jenner. had you had any conversation prior thereto during your lifetime and that of your brother lee in which he expressed his views of the character that he wrote in this letter of november , ? mr. oswald. no, sir; i most certainly did not. mr. jenner. had you ever discussed with him, in any conversation between you and your brother lee, with or without your brother john present or your mother, in which his feeling toward or reaction to the government of the united states had been discussed? mr. oswald. no, sir; at no time, as i stated yesterday, have we ever discussed politics, and most assuredly i did not have any inclination in any degree that anything of this nature was in his mind. mr. jenner. so the views expressed by your brother in the letter of november came to you as a complete surprise? mr. oswald. yes, sir; with the qualification that this is what i expected after reading the newspapers. mr. dulles. may i ask one question there. when your brother left, after that short stay following his service in the marine corps, did you know that he was going to russia--did he say anything to you about going to russia at that time? mr. oswald. no, sir; he did not. mr. jenner. what did he say to you as to his plans? mr. oswald. that he was going to new orleans, louisiana, to visit my aunt lillian. mr. jenner. your aunt lillian whom? mr. oswald. murret. mr. jenner. the family you identified yesterday--the murret branch of your family? mr. oswald. i don't recall identifying them. mr. jenner. there was one occasion yesterday. mr. oswald. all right. yes, sir; that is correct. and that he was---- mr. jenner. that is an aunt on which side--your father's or mother's? mr. oswald. my mother's side. and that he was going to visit with them, and at the same time find a job in new orleans, and make his home in new orleans, louisiana. mr. jenner. did he give you any indication at any time during his stay--this was in fort worth? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. during his stay in fort worth, upon his return and discharge from the service, and while he was there, that gave you any indication whatsoever of any intention on his part to leave the country? mr. oswald. no, sir; none whatsoever. mr. jenner. whether he was going to go to europe, russia, or anywhere else? mr. oswald. no, sir. the only information he gave me was that he was going only to new orleans, louisiana, from fort worth, texas. mr. jenner. did you spend a good deal of time with him while he was in fort worth, texas, in this interim period? mr. oswald. approximately one day out of the two or three days he was there. mr. jenner. are you suggesting that most of your contact with him during this period was on one of those days, or that the total amount of time that you spent with him during that period aggregated one day? mr. oswald. i believe, sir, that i at least talked to him on the telephone on one day, and then the next day he spent the day at our home. mr. jenner. and that is the day that you went off hunting, which you testified about yesterday? mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is correct. mr. jenner. and never during any of the contact that you had with him did he imply or state directly that he had any contemplation of a trip which would take him out of the united states? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. dulles. you didn't know about his having applied for a new passport? mr. oswald. no, sir, i did not know he applied for any passport. mr. jenner. during the day that he visited you, did your mother visit at your home on that day? mr. oswald. no, sir; she did not. mr. jenner. at any time during the period between his discharge from the marines and his arrival in fort worth, and his departure, was there any occasion on which both you, your mother, and your brother lee were together? mr. oswald. none that i recall, sir. mr. jenner. was there any discussion between you at any time during that period of the reason, if any special reason, for his discharge from the marine corps, earlier than he might have been discharged in normal course, which as i understand would have been in december of that year? mr. oswald. i believe, sir, we had a brief discussion on that. mr. jenner. who initiated it? mr. oswald. i feel certain like i did. mr. jenner. and what did you do? ask him--just tell us what you asked him. and why you were curious, if you were. mr. oswald. to the best of my memory, i asked him--because i was aware of his approximate date of discharge, his regular date of discharge, or release from the service, and i asked him why he was discharged or released earlier than that date. and his reply was that mother had written the red cross and requested that he be released earlier. mr. jenner. written the red cross? mr. oswald. yes, sir. i also---- mr. jenner. did he say why she had written requesting that he be released earlier? mr. oswald. no, sir, not to my recollection. mr. jenner. he just said mother had written the red cross asking that he be released earlier. mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. that is all he said? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. he didn't elaborate on that? mr. oswald. no, sir. mr. jenner. and you didn't inquire of him beyond that? mr. oswald. no, sir, i did not. mr. jenner. when had you last seen your mother prior to this occasion? mr. oswald. may i have his release date, please? mr. liebeler. september , . mr. oswald. i would say approximately three or four months earlier. mr. jenner. three or four months. that would be sometime in may? mr. oswald. approximately, yes, sir. mr. jenner. ? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. had you talked with her in the interim period? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i had. mr. jenner. how long prior to his return to fort worth on september or , , had you talked to her? mr. oswald. i do not remember, sir. mr. jenner. well, could you give us an estimate, that is in terms of whether it was weeks or several months? mr. oswald. i can give an estimate of several months. mr. jenner. several months? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. your mother was then residing in fort worth, was she not? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. dulles. was she hospitalized at this period? mr. oswald. no, sir, she was not. not to my knowledge. mr. jenner. were you aware of her state of well being? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. during the four month period? mr. oswald. sir? during the four month period? mr. jenner. you say for three to four months prior to september , you had not seen your mother, that for several months prior to that, you had not talked with her. i take it from that that you were not aware of her well being, whether she was in good health, poor health, or otherwise? mr. oswald. during the approximate date of three or four months prior to lee's release from the service, i was aware that she did have an accident at her place of employment there in fort worth, at which time, if memory serves me correct, something fell on her, on her face, and injured her nose. i was aware from conversations with her at that time that she was consulting or going to various doctors. and she told me at that time---- mr. jenner. excuse me. having reached that point--is that how you first discovered that your mother had suffered an accident? you say she told you. mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is correct. mr. jenner. and i take it, then, that you had not talked with her for several months prior to september nor seen her before sometime, or later than sometime in april of , that this telephone conversation must have taken place several months prior to september . am i correct about that? mr. oswald. it was not a telephone conversation, sir. mr. jenner. you saw her? mr. oswald. yes. mr. jenner. in the month of april ' ? mr. oswald. approximately that date. mr. jenner. and did you visit her, or did she visit you? mr. oswald. i saw her at her place of employment. mr. jenner. and how did that come about? mr. oswald. i do not remember, sir. mr. jenner. would it refresh your recollection if i recited some possibilities--that she called you and asked you to come to see her, that you desired to inquire of her, see if she was all right, or was it that you just happened to be in the downtown fort worth area, and you stopped by to see her, knowing where she was employed? mr. oswald. i believe the latter would possibly be more accurate. mr. jenner. is that your best recollection at the moment? mr. oswald. yes, sir. she was not employed at that time at the downtown area of fort worth, but rather at a suburb store, cox's department store. mr. jenner. this is a shoe store? mr. oswald. no, sir, this is just a large department store, from wearing apparel to toys, a full line store. mr. jenner. how did you become aware she was employed there? mr. oswald. i do not remember, sir. mr. jenner. how long--did you know then how long she had been employed at cox's department store? mr. oswald. no, sir, i did not. mr. jenner. how did you become aware of the fact she was so employed? mr. oswald. i do not remember, sir. mr. jenner. you have no recollection? mr. oswald. no, sir, i do not. mr. dulles. about how long was this after the accident, or was it after the accident? mr. oswald. my recollection of that, sir--this was shortly after the accident. she was still employed there, even though i understand from our conversation that day that she had been off for a while--i don't know how long a period--and that she was still employed there. because this is where i did see her, at her counter in this department store. mr. jenner. on this occasion, when you stopped by to see her, she related to you an accident she had suffered--that was the first news you had of it? mr. oswald. that is correct. yes, sir. mr. jenner. you had not known she was ill or what her state of well being was prior to that time? mr. oswald. none that i remember, sir. mr. jenner. where is the cox's department store located with respect to your place of business? i am seeking now distance, and the convenience of getting there. mr. oswald. from my place of business at that time in fort worth this was approximately four or five miles west. i might further state, sir, it was approximately two miles from my home. mr. jenner. did you come from your home to her place of business or from work to her place of business? mr. oswald. i believe i went from home to her place of business. mr. jenner. was this a week day, a working day? mr. oswald. no, sir, i don't believe it was. mr. jenner. that is not for you. was it for her? mr. oswald. it was for her, sir, not for me. mr. jenner. i take it, then, it was a saturday. mr. oswald. i would believe that would be correct, sir. mr. jenner. and has this discussion served to refresh your recollection or stimulate your recollection now as to why you went by to see her? mr. oswald. no, sir; it has not. mr. jenner. may i ask you this, sir? when had you last seen your mother prior to this occasion that you visited her? mr. oswald. i do not remember, sir. i would say, as we said before, several months. mr. jenner. all right. that would be several more months, back into the winter time of ? mr. oswald. ' , sir. mr. jenner. yes--' . well, would it be back in the winter of ' , say january? or could it have been? mr. oswald. no, sir, not that long. we are talking, if i am correct, sir, approximately april of . january of would be well over a year. it had not been that long. mr. jenner. well, then--i had said january ' , and you said several months. now, several months prior to april of , would be or might be as far back as january of , am i not correct? mr. oswald. yes, sir, it could be that far. mr. jenner. and your present recollection is that it might have been that much of a period of time--sometime in january, , to this occasion in april of when you had--you visited her at cox's department store? mr. oswald. yes, sir; or possibly even longer. mr. jenner. possibly even longer than that. back into . mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. could you give me your best recollection at the moment as to the last time you saw your mother in the year ? mr. oswald. i cannot recall any specific time during the year of that i did see her. mr. jenner. would it be if at all quite infrequent? mr. oswald. yes, sir, quite infrequent. mr. jenner. this leads me to put this general question to you, mr. oswald. i take it that for some period of time in that area of time--that is ' , ' , and perhaps even back of that--your contact with your mother was quite limited? mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is correct. mr. jenner. over what period of time did that persist? give us the broad picture first. mr. oswald. i would say, sir, quite frankly that the original occurred prior to my joining the marine corps in . mr. jenner. and persisted thereafter? mr. oswald. persisted thereafter that i saw her only very infrequently. mr. jenner. did your joining the marine corps--was that stimulated in any respect by your relations with your mother, or your mother's with you? mr. oswald. partly, sir; it was. mr. jenner. would you state that, please? mr. oswald. at the end of the school year of , which was approximately may , ---- mr. jenner. you were then years old, is that correct? mr. oswald. years old. i, of course, was still living at home. in approximately the middle part of june a friend of mine in fort worth and i decided to take a hitch-hiking trip to florida. we left fort worth in the middle of june, , and we---- mr. dulles. ' ? mr. oswald. yes, sir. in june of we left fort worth and traveled i believed as far as gulfport, mississippi. and this friend i was with--he did have a defect from birth on one foot that was starting to bother him. and we decided it was best to return to fort worth, by a different route than we originally left fort worth. we went from fort worth to shreveport, new orleans, and gulfport, mississippi. our return was gulfport, mississippi, new orleans, houston, big springs, tex., and fort worth, tex. at that time i stayed at his home, with his mother and himself. mr. jenner. why? mr. oswald. because mother and i was having a disagreement. mr. jenner. about what? mr. oswald. about whether or not i was old enough to start my own life generally. mr. jenner. that is whether you would depart the family home and live on your own? mr. oswald. yes, sir, and generally whether or not i had the right to start my own life in the manner that i wanted to. mr. jenner. were you unhappy with the manner and fashion of life that you had led up to that moment? mr. oswald. not in the manner or fashion, sir. i objected quite strongly to the apparent efforts of our mother to control me completely in all respects. mr. jenner. did that condition or relationship exist with respect to your brother, john pic? mr. oswald. i would say generally it would, sir. mr. jenner. it did rather than it would? mr. oswald. that it did, yes, sir--thank you. mr. jenner. and was that a factor in his enlisting in the coast guard? mr. oswald. it is not to my knowledge that it was. mr. jenner. i take it you and john, then, had had, if i may use my own expression, difficulties in your relationships with your mother, particularly with reference to what you gentlemen thought as you reached age , as the right to be independent and lead your own lives? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. dulles. do you think that your brother, lee oswald, had the same feeling, that may have affected his joining the marines? mr. oswald. based on my own personal experience, sir, i would reach that conclusion. mr. dulles. you would? mr. oswald. yes, sir, i would. mr. dulles. thank you. did your mother know about this hitch-hiking trip, or did you just go off on the trip? mr. oswald. i just went off on the trip, sir. mr. jenner. without advising her? mr. oswald. yes, sir, that is correct. mr. jenner. did you get in touch with her upon your return to fort worth? mr. oswald. no, sir; i did not. i would say this. i did attempt to call her before i left fort worth on this trip, and there was no answer at home. mr. jenner. all right. now what led us back along this trail was the conversation you had with your brother lee when he was discharged from the marines on september , , and his statement to you that he had an early discharge because your mother had written a letter to the red cross. mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. and then you saw her in april, and that was the last time you saw her prior to seeing your brother on his discharge from the marines? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. now---- mr. dulles. could i ask one question there. do you know whether your brother stimulated this letter from your mother with regard to early discharge, or do you think she did this on her own, or don't you know? mr. oswald. it is my understanding, sir, that she had originated the request to the red cross. mr. jenner. and that understanding is based on what? mr. oswald. just a general feeling that i had at that time. mr. jenner. was it induced also by discovering from your brother that your mother had written a letter to the red cross? mr. oswald. i am sure it was, sir. and i might add i pointed out to lee why did you accept this early discharge, since he only had a few months more, i believe it was, to go. because it had been my experience in the service that when i ran across somebody who, for one reason or another, was going to get out a little bit early, i understood that they perhaps were subject to recall for that period at a later date, or something along that line. and i thought it was unwise. mr. jenner. is this what you said to him? mr. oswald. yes, sir. i pointed out--i felt like since it was to be under the regular enlistment period very shortly thereafter, i believe september , , that it would have been the wise thing to stay in. mr. jenner. what did he say to that? mr. oswald. i do not recall, sir. mr. jenner. you were living in fort worth, married, and still you were having substantially little contact with your mother, is that correct? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. would you explain to the commission the reasons for that, the conditions which brought that about? mr. oswald. after my marriage to vada m. oswald, my mother on a number of occasions--i say a number--perhaps three or four occasions--made it quite difficult for my wife and myself when we were in her presence at her apartment there in fort worth. mr. jenner. now, please, mr. oswald--when you say your mother made it quite difficult, give us some examples. what do you mean by "made it quite difficult"? mr. oswald. generally, sir, it was the continuation that, even though i was married and apparently able to take care of myself and start my own family, she certainly wanted to--my mother certainly wanted to--still control my thinking, my actions, and my wife's actions. mr. jenner. can you give us one specific example? mr. oswald. sir, i cannot recall any specific examples. mr. jenner. indicate the nature of those incidents. mr. dulles. had she objected to your marriage? mr. oswald. i don't believe she did, sir. at least i do not recall any time that she ever stated that, any objections to my marriage. mr. jenner. did you have the feeling that she objected? mr. oswald. yes, sir, to some extent i did. mr. jenner. did you have a conversation with her about your becoming married before you became married? mr. oswald. yes, sir, i did. mr. jenner. and did she--what views did she express in that connection? mr. oswald. i believe, sir, that would be generally that i was leaving her alone, that both lee and john at this time were in the service, and she would be alone, and that she would like for me to live with her, that i would stay with her. mr. jenner. when was your marriage again, please? mr. oswald. i have never stated it before, sir. it was in november--november or , . mr. mckenzie. off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. jenner. the question has been asked of you as to the date of your marriage. mr. oswald. this was in november , sir. mr. jenner. had you been courting your present wife prior to that time? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. was your mother acquainted with her? mr. oswald. yes sir; she was. mr. jenner. did she--did her objections to your marriage, in addition to those you stated--were there any personalities in the sense of her objecting to your fiance? mr. oswald. none that i recall, sir. mr. jenner. did you have any feeling that there was any personality in the sense of objection on her part, or lack of approval of your fiance? mr. oswald. if i might say, sir, i feel sure there was, and in my mind right now--i can think of really no one that she ever approved of to the extent of my friend, either boys or girls. mr. jenner. was that also true of your brother, john pic? and i will also ask you about lee harvey. mr. oswald. john very seldom, if memory serves me correct, ever brought any of his friends over to the house, to meet mother. mr. jenner. presented them to mother, you mean? mr. oswald. presented them to mother. mr. jenner. was that his choice? mr. oswald. i would say so now that i believe it would have been his choice. mr. jenner. he preferred not to? mr. oswald. this would be my assumption, that he preferred not to. mr. jenner. not presenting his friends to your mother? mr. oswald. yes sir; that is correct. mr. jenner. would you answer the same question as to lee, as to whether he brought his friends to your home? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i believe he did. he quite frequently played around the house with friends there in the neighborhood. mr. jenner. they were children, however, in the immediate neighborhood? mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is correct. mr. jenner. he is five years younger than you. mr. oswald. yes, sir. he would have been in , this period we are talking about. mr. jenner. we are interested in this matter of the antipathy existing between you and john on the one hand and your mother on the other. had that gone on for sometime? in order that i don't violate the same thing that i raise with you occasionally, let me take you back to the military school days, or to bethlehem orphanage. did a measure of antipathy exist at that time? mr. oswald. no, sir; i don't believe it did. mr. jenner. when did it really arise in any marked degree? mr. oswald. i believe after her divorce from mr. ekdahl. mr. jenner. that was in june . mr. oswald. yes, sir. and from the time that we moved to the young street address in fort worth. mr. jenner. at or about that time? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. would you refresh my recollection as to when that was? was that in ? mr. oswald. yes, sir; it was. mr. jenner. would you please indicate how that antipathy or that change was evident? what change of attitude was there, either on the part of you boys, or on her part, or on the part of all of you? mr. oswald. perhaps, sir, for the first time in any period, all of us were together. and perhaps, sir--i say perhaps this would be correct--she did not know myself and my older brother john at that particular time to any extent. mr. jenner. you had been away at school pretty much? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. but you had been home for three months in the summertime? mr. oswald. that is correct. but still, searching my own mind, i certainly felt this way at that time. and john and i were not accustomed to her. certainly i cannot speak for john. but for myself, on that point, i would say we were not accustomed to her. we had become--there again i say we--john and i--i feel like i certainly had become more disciplined and used to being disciplined by men, and not used to having a woman around the house. i believe this was perhaps my feeling at that time. mr. jenner. all right. now, if we can return to the events of april , did your mother appear to you to have been injured? mr. oswald. yes, sir; she did. mr. jenner. what evidence was there of her injury? mr. oswald. there appeared to be a little swelling in the upper part of the nose. mr. jenner. any scratch or other skin break? mr. oswald. no, sir; none that i recall. mr. jenner. did you form an opinion at that time as to whether her injury was major or minor? mr. oswald. i asked her about it, or she volunteered the information of how the accident occurred, and that she had been seeing doctors, and so forth. and i did recall her stating to me that she had been to either two or three doctors, and none of them had said anything was wrong with her, and then she was insisting that there was definitely something wrong, and she was continuing to see other doctors. mr. jenner. had that sort of thing occurred prior thereto, in which your mother felt that she was ill and she went to physicians, and the physicians indicated otherwise? mr. oswald. not to my knowledge, sir. mr. jenner. she was not chronic in that respect? mr. oswald. no, sir, not to my knowledge. mr. dulles. was she hospitalized at any time in connection with this injury? mr. oswald. not to my knowledge, sir. mr. dulles. did she have to give up her work for a period of time, or did she continue working? mr. oswald. i believe she did miss a short period of time when the accident occurred. mr. dulles. thank you. mr. jenner. but she was at work on the day you visited her? mr. oswald. yes, sir, that is correct. mr. jenner. were you forewarned that your brother was returning from the service earlier than he was scheduled to return? mr. oswald. no, sir, i don't believe i was. mr. jenner. were you forewarned that he was returning at all at this particular time--that is, on or about the th of september, ? mr. oswald. if i may take a moment, please, sir. mr. jenner. yes, sir. mr. oswald. no, sir, i was not aware that he was being released from the service earlier. mr. jenner. had you received any communication from him prior to his return--that is a communication that was reasonably near the time of his return? mr. oswald. the only one that i have a record of, sir, is a letter dated--postmarked june , , at santa ana, california, addressed to me at my fort worth address of davenport, return address, pfc. l. h. oswald, santa ana, california. the letter itself is undated. mr. jenner. you have made reference, mr. oswald, to a letter you received in an envelope postmarked june , , from your brother. you have the original of that letter before you? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i do. mr. jenner. now, that letter--did you receive in addition to this letter until september , , any other letter from your brother? mr. oswald. not that i can recall, sir, or that i have record of. mr. jenner. now, this letter in the third paragraph reads, "well, pretty soon i will be getting out of the corps, and i know what i want to be and how i am going to be it, which i guess is the most important thing in my life"--"in life." have i read it correctly? mr. oswald. you have, sir. mr. jenner. did you respond to that letter? mr. oswald. not to my recollection did i respond to the letter, sir. mr. jenner. now, when your brother was mustered out, on or about september , , did you have a discussion with him with respect to this subject matter--that is what he wanted to be in life, and how he was going to go about it? mr. oswald. no, sir, i did not--to this extent. he did, of course, indicate to me that he wanted to go to new orleans, louisiana, and live and find a job there, and he did not indicate what type of job or what type of work he wanted to do. mr. jenner. for the purpose of the record, mr. chairman, this letter has been identified and is in evidence as commission exhibit no. . how did you learn that your brother was in fort worth, upon his being mustered out of the marines? mr. oswald. i believe, sir, he called me on arrival at fort worth. mr. jenner. that was the first notice or knowledge that you had that he had been discharged? mr. oswald. i believe that is correct. mr. jenner. is that correct? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and his call to you was the first notice or knowledge you had that he was in fort worth? mr. oswald. yes, sir, that is correct. mr. jenner. it necessarily follows, and i take it it is a fact, that your mother had not called you to advise you that he was being discharged or would be discharged at or about that time? mr. oswald. not that i can remember, sir. mr. dulles. might i ask you at this point whether your brother ever talked to you about his experience in the marines. did he tell you anything about that, give you any incidents? i think you only had one day--that would have taken place on that one day, between the three or four days between his return and going off again. mr. jenner. or may i add, mr. chairman, any correspondence he had in the marines, and any leaves. mr. dulles. we have no letters, have we, from the witness? mr. jenner. no, but i thought there might possibly be some. mr. dulles. i don't want to interrupt, but it seemed to me to fit in at this particular point. mr. oswald. i do not recall, other than general discussion, about the marine corps. i recall--and i believe this was on his leave in , when we discussed this--i had asked him did he know any of my drill instructors, and i at the time recalled a senior drilling instructor at camp pendleton, by the name of sgt. cobie. and he stated he did not. however, he did run across, while he was in boot camp, some other drill instructor, but he could not recall his name, who stated he recalled me, or asked him one day did he have a brother that had been in the marine corps a few years before. he said yes, he had. and apparently this man did remember me, because he asked was i the right guide in that platoon. and my brother lee did not know that i was. i do recall that conversation. mr. jenner. did you have any other conversation with him or any correspondence from him in which the subject matter of his career in the marines was discussed, or to which allusion was made? mr. oswald. i certainly received other letters during the course of his enlistment in the united states marine corps. i do not recall any specific instance that reflected what his opinion was of the marine corps, nor that at any time i remember did he refer to any happenings or incidents while he was in the marine corps that perhaps might upset him, or might have made him happy. mr. jenner. nothing either way? mr. oswald. no, sir. mr. jenner. completely bland in that respect? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. dulles. do you recall whether any of those letters are available now? do you have those letters? mr. oswald. no, sir; i believe i do not have those. i say i believe i do not. i have looked for just everything that i could possibly find on lee's life, and letters and so forth, and i have not run across any others. mr. jenner. i was about to ask you that. you have made a thorough search? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i have. mr. dulles. if you should find them, you will make them available to us, will you not? mr. oswald. certainly, sir. mr. dulles. thank you. just one more question on that, if i may. i would gather that the correspondence you had during his stay in russia was more voluminous than while he was in the marine corps, from what you tell me. mr. oswald. yes, sir; it certainly was. there was certainly a larger flow of letters from him, and from me to him, at this time than there was during his stay in the united states marine corps. mr. dulles. thank you. mr. jenner. so while he was in russia, he wrote you considerably more often, at least after the first year, i guess it was, or nine months, than he had theretofore? mr. oswald. no, sir. if i might there again refer to the letters from russia received from lee harvey oswald and placed in evidence before this commission, when he notified us in that he was no longer going to write or contact us, and did not want us to contact him in any way, it was until april of before i heard from him again, which was, of course, a period of time after one year. mr. jenner. had you written him in the meantime? mr. oswald. no, sir; i did not. mr. jenner. did you know where he was in the meantime--that is, any particular town or city in russia? mr. oswald. no, sir; i did not. mr. dulles. and you had the impression that he did not want you to write to him at that time? mr. mckenzie. mr. dulles, he says that in the letters. mr. jenner. yes--one of these letters i am about to examine him about so states. that is correct, is it not? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. i take it, then, however, that in contrast, commencing with the letter in , april i believe you said it was--from that time forward, there was, by comparison, a considerable number of letters, and a larger volume of correspondence than you had ever had from your brother? mr. oswald. yes, sir, there was a continuous flow. realizing the period that it would take to make a complete cycle of the exchange of one letter to another, of approximately two weeks--the letters were quite regular. mr. jenner. and this had not been the pattern even in prior years. mr. oswald. no, sir; it was not. mr. jenner. when he was in the marine corps, or when you were in the marine corps? mr. oswald. no, sir; it was not. mr. jenner. confirmatory of that, mr. oswald, i note in commission exhibit no. , is the last paragraph which reads, "i know i haven't written in a long time. please excuse me. well, there really isn't too much news here. but i would like to hear from you and the family. write soon. your brother, lee". i take it from that that there had been--this was the first communication you had had from him, as he says, in a long time. mr. oswald. yes, sir, that is correct. mr. jenner. does your memory serve you sufficiently now to define more clearly the period to which he refers as "a long time"? mr. oswald. i would say in between the leave in , and his letter received, postmarked in june , i would not have received over two or three letters. mr. jenner. his leave in ' was when, again, please? mr. oswald. i recall this to be in the early fall of the year--perhaps september. mr. jenner. all right. directing your attention now back to the letter of november , , which is commission exhibit , i will ask you this: is this the first letter you received from him from russia? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. is it the first communication of any kind, at least directly from or initially by him, that you had from him? mr. oswald. yes, sir, that is correct. mr. jenner. this is, then, the first time you heard from him from the day he departed to go to new orleans, as he had stated to you, for the purpose of finding employment? mr. oswald. yes, sir, that is correct. mr. jenner. you testified yesterday that you responded to this letter--that is, commission exhibit , dated november , . is that correct? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. you were unable to recall particularly well yesterday your letter in response to commission exhibit . has the reading of the letter of november , , which is commission exhibit , and your re-reading of the letter of november , commission exhibit , served to refresh your recollection as to the contents of your letter which you wrote in response to commission exhibit ? mr. oswald. to some degree, sir, it most certainly has. mr. jenner. all right. would you now, having had your recollection refreshed, relate to us as near as may be, if you are able to do so, your letter in response to your brother's letter, commission exhibit ? mr. oswald. which was the letter of november --is that correct? mr. jenner. that is correct. mr. oswald. to the best of my recollection, in my response to his letter, i asked him why he went to russia, and for what purpose he went to russia. and i believe, sir, that is to the best of my ability, in the remembrance of my letter, that would be the only two questions that i asked him. mr. jenner. now, in the letter of november , he says, "do you know, for instance, that i have wanted to do this for well over a year"--that is, go to russia. i take it from your prior testimony that you had not known, either well over a year or even for an instant, that he had any intention of going to russia. mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. had the name albert schweitzer college ever been mentioned by your brother lee prior to this time--that is, let us say, prior to the middle of september ? mr. oswald. no, sir; it was not. mr. jenner. he also states in this letter of november --makes the rhetorical question--"do you know that i speak a fair amount of russian, which i have been studying for many months". had that subject matter ever come to your attention prior to his uttering it in the letter of november ? mr. oswald. no, sir; it had not. mr. jenner. you did not know, up until this time, that your brother had been studying russian while in the marines? mr. oswald. that is correct. and again if i may elaborate on that, i was not aware that he ever studied any foreign language. mr. dulles. did your brother ever talk to you about what he was reading during this period? mr. jenner. or at any time, during his school period? mr. oswald. no, sir. of course, i have seen him read various books. i never did see him read a book--unless the covers--or perhaps if i picked it up--it didn't indicate anything about communism or socialism. he did like to read. he read quite a bit. and by this, i have observed him to read anything from funny books to novels, to westerns, the full scope. he liked american history. i have seen him read american history a great deal. mr. jenner. was he a voracious reader? that is, did he read a great deal, devote much attention to reading? mr. oswald. yes, sir, he was what i would term an assiduous reader. mr. jenner. i am directing your attention to his--oh, say, from age, let's say, nine or ten to the time he enlisted in the marines--maybe we better go back a little bit more, since you were away. i would like to cover his youth up to the time he enlisted in the marines. is that the period of which you speak? mr. oswald. no, sir; i do not. i speak of a later period--my visit to new orleans after i received my discharge from the marine corps. mr. jenner. and before he enlisted in the marines? mr. oswald. yes, sir; before he enlisted in the marine corps. and of his moving to fort worth. mr. jenner. fix the time. mr. oswald. with mother--in . mr. jenner. on these occasions you observed him reading assiduously? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and you had an opportunity, and you embraced it to some extent, just out of curiosity if nothing else, of observing the nature and character of the literature and the subject matter of the literature he was reading? mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is correct. mr. jenner. and it is of the nature and the subject matter you already stated? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. during any of that period, and any observation you ever made whether then or prior thereto, had you noticed him or seen any books--he uses the expression "marxism", communism--or any books or works, or pamphlets of that nature? mr. oswald. no, sir, i did not. i did not at any time observe him reading or have in his possession any type of pamphlet or book, should i say, of a political nature. mr. jenner. even american politics? mr. oswald. american politics, of course--american history, of course, would go into some degree of american politics. mr. jenner. i think you are probably right. but other than american history. mr. oswald. no, sir, i did not observe him. mr. jenner. now, your brother states in this letter of november , the united states was a country that he hated. taking the whole letter, we would like to have you state what your reaction to the letter was when you received it and read it, in view of the rather severe things he says, and startling things he says in this letter. mr. oswald. if i may, sir, refer to my testimony yesterday in relation to this letter, and my reactions then, i thought more along that line. i have not come up with any other conclusions where my thinking as to my reaction at the time i received the letter--other than it was something that i expected, due to what i had read in the newspapers prior to receiving the letter of november , . mr. jenner. your shock, if i may call it such, had been conditioned---- mr. oswald. to some degree it had; yes, sir. mr. jenner. in other words, then, the letter, when you did receive it, with these utterances in it, did not surprise you? mr. oswald. i feel, perhaps, if anything would have surprised me that did not appear, to my recollection, would be the statement "i will never return to the united states, which is a country i hate," particularly the latter part of that statement--"which is a country i hate." mr. jenner. that did shock you despite your having read the newspaper clippings or articles? mr. oswald. yes, sir, i feel certain that it did. mr. jenner. and in your response to your brother's letter, did you advert to that particular portion of his letter? to the best of your recollection? mr. oswald. yes, sir--i was just making a note on that. i didn't realize you would ask me that so soon. i do believe i asked him why he hated the united states. mr. jenner. now, have you given us--exhausted your recollection as to the content of the letter you wrote in response to the letter of november , commission exhibit ? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i feel i have. mr. jenner. well, now, let us turn, if we might, to letter no. , which is exhibit , an eight-page letter. mr. oswald. all right, sir. mr. jenner. mr. chairman, to summarize this letter, if i may, for you, it is an eight-page letter. lee harvey oswald sets forth in it extensively his philosophies, what they purport to be as of that time, the reasons why he has decided to defect to the soviet union. he complained about the economic system in the united states. mr. dulles. system? mr. jenner. system--which he stated exploited all of its workers. he complained of segregation and unemployment, and automation in the united states. he stressed disapproval of american foreign policy, which he characterized as being one of imperialism. in framework, it is framed as a response partly to some questions that our present witness has posed in a letter, which mr. robert oswald had written in response to the letter of november , such as a question as to why lee harvey oswald and his fellow workers and communists would like to see the present capitalist system of the united states overthrown--he having made an indication to the witness in that respect. apparently in robert's letter to lee, he had couched it in terms of suggesting that apparently lee harvey oswald thought he might have some advantage economically if he went to russia, and lee harvey oswald responded, "so you speak of advantages. do you think that is why i am here, for personal material advantages? happiness is not based on one's self, does not consist of a small home, of taking and getting. happiness is taking part in a struggle where there is no borderline between one's own personal world and the world in general. i never believed i would find more material advantages at this stage of development in the soviet union than i might have had in the united states." mr. mckenzie. at this point, mr. chairman, i might also add, in connection with what mr. jenner has stated about this letter, that the letter appears, in answering questions that robert may have posed in a previous letter to lee harvey oswald--it appears to have been lifted in some respects out of a communist text, and it even appears to me--and this is pure supposition, that it could possibly have been written by someone else with lee harvey oswald coming back in and adding other things to it. it is the longest letter received, consisting of some eight pages. a careful reading of the letter will show only one or two misspelled words, whereas in the other letters there are a number of misspelled words. and i don't know what that adds or detracts from the record. but i do feel that there is a difference in the letters as you read all of them put together. mr. dulles. i am glad you called that to our attention. it is an interesting observation. mr. oswald. and i would like to, if i may, point out something i observed in between the letter of november , , and the letter of november , . in the letter of november , , towards the last paragraph on the last page, i quote, "i really don't see what we could talk about. if you want to send me money, that i can use. but i do not expect to be able to pay it back." i now refer to the letter of november , , on the last page, the second last paragraph, "i have no money problems at all"--underlined. "my situation was not really as stable then as it is now. i have no troubles at all now along that line." mr. mckenzie. and, furthermore, he had moved from room in the metropole hotel to room in the metropole hotel. and marks on the letter of november th, "note new room number." mr. dulles. could i get into the record here, just for clarification--when was this written in relation to his arrival in the soviet union? do we have that on the record? was it a month after? was it before the other incident that has been described for the record, with regard to---- mr. oswald. if i may, sir; i believe i can answer that. mr. jenner. i didn't want to hazard a guess. if you know, will you please state it? mr. oswald. i believe lee, as a matter of record, did arrive in the soviet union on october , . mr. dulles. is it written then, roughly, a little less than a month and--a little over a month after his arrival--these two letters referred to? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. i intended to draw your attention to that which you have already mentioned--that is, in the letter of november he indicated that he would be pleased if you would send him some funds, whereas on the last page of the letter of november th he advises you that as far as funds are concerned--he is in good shape. mr. dulles. and both of these letters were written, as i recall, before he was advised that he could not stay on in the soviet union the first time? mr. jenner. that is correct, sir. they are written before he went to minsk, as well. mr. dulles. thank you. mr. jenner. had you sent him any funds in the interim period? mr. oswald. no, sir. referring to my testimony yesterday--at which time i replied to his letter of november , , on his request for any money that i might send him, i stated to him i would gladly send him the necessary money for his return to the united states, and for that reason only. i did not enclose any money in my answer. mr. jenner. now, that is an interesting factor about which i would like to inquire of you; also, as to its implication. later, your brother, as the correspondence we have now introduced in evidence discloses, desired to return to the united states. and he was having, according to the correspondence, some problem in raising the necessary funds to return to the united states. did he at any time write you requesting that you honor your letter in response to his letter of november th in which you said you would gladly send him money to return to the united states? mr. oswald. no, sir; he did not request it directly. he had certainly indicated, as his letters do indicate, that he was having a little difficulty in raising the necessary funds to return to the united states. and i, in my reply to that letter, volunteered to raise the necessary funds to bring his wife and himself to the united states. mr. jenner. would you identify the particular letter to which you now refer? mr. oswald. in reply to your question, sir, i am referring to the letter of february , . mr. jenner. which, for the record, is commission exhibit . did you respond to that letter and offer to advance to him the funds necessary to bring about his return to the united states? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i did. and i also included an offer for him to stay with us on his return to the united states, he and his family, for any length of time that they so desired, until he was able to get settled himself. mr. jenner. did you ever receive from him a letter in which he responded directly to your offer to advance funds? perhaps i will put it this way. have you produced all of the letters that you received from him while he was in russia? mr. oswald. to my knowledge this is all of the letters i received from him. mr. jenner. did you make it a practice during this period to keep, intentionally and deliberately keep, all letters that you received from him? mr. oswald. yes, sir; that was my intention. mr. jenner. to the best of your knowledge you have produced all of those letters to the commission? mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. did you ever report to your brother that it would be necessary for you to make a loan on your automobile in order to advance any funds to him? mr. oswald. no, sir, i did not. mr. jenner. including particularly the $ that you advanced to him when he returned in june of ? mr. oswald. no, sir, i did not. mr. jenner. did you become aware at any time prior to november , , that he made a representation to the new york welfare authorities that it would be necessary for you to make a loan on your automobile to advance the $ ? mr. oswald. no, sir, i have not. mr. jenner. there was no discussion of that subject by him with you when he returned to fort worth and lived in your home, or thereafter? mr. oswald. no, sir. this is the first knowledge i have of such a report. mr. jenner. all right. now, returning to the letter of november --and keeping in mind, also, the letter--let's just stay with the letter of november th. prior to the time of the receipt of that letter, had your brother lee ever in your presence uttered thoughts of that nature, or even spoken to you any thoughts of the nature contained in the letter of november th with respect to the united states, its economic system, communist russia, or countries of that character? mr. oswald. no, sir; he did not. mr. jenner. and what was your reaction to the letter of november , particularly those features of it dealing with his attitudes towards the united states and its political and economic and social system? mr. oswald. sir, i remember somewhat vividly my reply to him--my reply to his letter---- mr. jenner. you did reply to the letter of november th? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. would you please state what your reply was? mr. oswald. i did reply to the letter of november , , and it was--and i believe until this day remains to be the longest letter i ever wrote. mr. jenner. all right--tell us about it. mr. oswald. i answered all the questions as to--if i may refer to the first question. "do you remember the time you told me about the efforts of your milk company to form a union? try to see why workers must form unions against employers in the united states." i recall i did reply to that statement. mr. jenner. what did you say? mr. oswald. it was my opinion--and i am not anti-union or pro-union. i believe it should be taken on the basis of the individual companies. it was my opinion that i expressed to him at that time that in this country, the employees did have a right to vote yes or no whether or not they wanted a union, and in this particular instance, the union was voted out. mr. dulles. could we just have a moment's pause? (brief recess.) mr. dulles. will you proceed? is it all right to proceed? mr. oswald. yes, sir; please. mr. jenner. you were reciting what you said in your letter of response to the letter of november . mr. oswald. all right, sir, if i may pause a moment to locate the second question or some statement that perhaps i recall referring to directly in my reply--i recall replying to the statement that was, that is contained, on the second page of the letter of november , to the latter part of this statement that i will quote from: "see the segregation, see the unemployment and what automation is. remember how you were laid off at convair?" i am referring now to the last question of "remember how you were laid off at convair?" mr. jenner. yes. mr. oswald. i believe i pointed out to him at that time that this was something i was aware of when i accepted the job at convair in fort worth, texas. it was a condition, perhaps an unspoken condition, because it was a government job in that when i was laid off, i did not have to go only to the government to look for employment but i was able to secure the type of employment that i was most interested in at that time or that he had a variety to choose from and that no one would say to me that, "you work here or there." mr. jenner. did you experience any bitterness in being laid off at convair? mr. oswald. no, sir. mr. jenner. resentful? mr. oswald. no, sir; i do not. mr. jenner. what was your reaction? mr. oswald. my reaction since i have been laid off at convair and when i was laid off at convair i felt like it was the best thing that ever happened to me. mr. jenner. when did that event take place? mr. oswald. in august, , sir. mr. jenner. all right. proceed with your recollection of your reply to this letter. mr. oswald. if i may, sir, continue to answer something along the question of how i felt or reacted to my layoff at convair; the reason why i recall the date is because my daughter was born two or three days after i was laid off, and i knew i was going to be laid off before she was born and i did not tell my wife and i recall that quite vividly. thank you. mr. jenner. i think i will ask you an additional question about that, if i may, please. mr. oswald. all right, sir. mr. jenner. was there any discussion, at least in lee's presence, regarding your being laid off at convair and your attitude with respect thereto. mr. oswald. no, sir; none that i recall. mr. jenner. and where was he--let's see, , he was in the marines then. mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is correct. mr. jenner. i take it then sometime along the line you had advised him that you were no longer with convair. mr. oswald. yes, sir; i feel certain like i did. mr. jenner. perhaps you wrote him to that effect or you told him about it when he was on leave in . mr. oswald. i would feel like perhaps i wrote him about it. mr. jenner. and to the best of your recollection did you indicate any resentment or bitterness in that regard? mr. oswald. no, sir. as i have never been resentful to that or bitter about it. mr. jenner. so that at least, as far as you can recall, any statement you made or any attitude you have with respect to your layoff which might have come to his attention, did not form a basis for his predicating the convair comment, on which he might have predicated the convair comment, in his letter of november ? mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. all right. proceed. mr. oswald. i also---- mr. jenner. excuse me, if i asked you a similar line of questions with respect to the union question would your answer be the same? mr. oswald. yes, sir; it certainly would. mr. jenner. you never expressed any dislike of unions. you never expressed to him, or in his presence, or members of your family, views that unions were exploited? mr. oswald. no, sir; i did not. mr. jenner. all right. by the way, had there been any discussion in the course of your youth, as you boys grew up, expressions in your family of any of these attitudes that he is expressing in his letter of november and his letter of november ? mr. oswald. no, sir. to my knowledge there was never any type of discussion that would reflect any of the statements or questions that he wrote in his letter of november , . mr. jenner. would you say to the extent there were discussions among you, and your family life, that the contrary was expressed? mr. oswald. i do not recall any discussions, sir, but if there was any discussion it would have been to the contrary. mr. jenner. your family was always a typical, loyal american family? mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. that is, loyal to the government of the united states and you thought well of it? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. when i say, you, i mean all of the members of your family as far as you knew? mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is correct. mr. jenner. all right. proceed with your recollection of your response. mr. oswald. i refer to his statement in the letter of november on the second page, "i can still see japan and the philippines and their puppet governments. more important, i can see the americans in uniform, men who were there because they were drafted or because they were adventurers or unemployed in civilian life." i referred to my own volunteering in the united states marine corps at that time, and i felt that nothing he pointed out there applied to my case, and i felt quite a few other men felt as i did, as to the reasons behind their joining the united states service. mr. jenner. had you expressed any dissatisfaction to him with your tour in the marines, or was that subject discussed in family councils or visits on his part to fort worth? mr. mckenzie. may i for just a moment? (discussion off the record.) mr. oswald. would you repeat the question, i believe i had it; i want to be sure of it. (the question was read.) mr. oswald. i do not believe that at any time we discussed it. we might have mentioned my tour in the united states marine corps. he was very proud of my service record and it would so indicate that i conducted myself in the best tradition of the united states marine corps; not that i was any lily white, but i was never in any serious trouble and i progressed in rank in keeping with the period that i was in the united states marine corps. mr. jenner. had that thought been expressed, or at least that flavor left, with the members of your family? mr. oswald. i feel that it was, particularly to lee, because i---- mr. jenner. would you elaborate on that, please; we are interested in that. mr. oswald. yes, sir. because i feel very surely that the reason that lee joined the united states marine corps was because of my service in the united states marine corps and he wanted to follow---- mr. jenner. and your reaction to it had been communicated by you to him? mr. oswald. i feel like it was, sir. mr. jenner. many witnesses have a habit that you have when you feel like it was. do you mean that you actually conveyed that thought to him? mr. oswald. i believe i did, sir. mr. jenner. all right. mr. oswald. thank you. i believe i was stating that i believe that the reason that lee joined the united states marine corps was to follow in my footsteps, in that same service, and frankly i believe that at that time in earlier years and later years that he looked up to me, not only in that respect, but that eventually he wanted to follow in my footsteps. i would say within the family relation that lee and i were closer than lee and mother or lee and john during our entire lifetime. that if there was something that he was going to discuss with anybody, or say to anybody, within the family i would be the one that he would discuss it with. i refer to his statement on the second page of the letter of november , , "i will ask you a question, robert, what do you support the american government for? what is the ideal you put forward. do not say freedom because freedom is a word used by all people through all of time." i did refer to the word "freedom" and i recall stating to him that the word "freedom" to me was something that was earned and not handed down. i refer to the third page of the letter of november , , and the brief statement, "america is a dying country." i replied to him that perhaps, and i believe some great man said this statement at one time or the other, i do not recall who, that we were a sleeping giant, and that we were coming awake. this was, of course, in reference to the communist world. mr. jenner. this was something you said in your letter? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. all right. mr. dulles. may i ask what is the date of this letter? mr. jenner. it is in response to the letter of november . mr. dulles. november , yes. mr. oswald. i refer to the bottom of the page of the letter of november , "so you speak of advantages. do you think that is why i am here for personal material advantages, happiness is not based on oneself, it does not consist of a small home of taking and getting." i recall my reply to this series of questions as being--as to having that right to seek for oneself his own personal desires to the extent that the material advantages were something of a secondary nature, and was something of a reward for his efforts. mr. jenner. while the witness is looking further, mr. chairman, this is a little tedious, but as counsel for the commission, i suggest its importance and relevancy in that, if nothing else, it serves to demonstrate the response of the witness to the letter indicating the attitude of the oswald family on these subjects and isolating these views to lee harvey oswald. mr. dulles. i think this is important, and the more i hear of this letter the more i get the impression that there was some help given in writing this letter. mr. jenner. that is why i am spending so much time on it. mr. dulles. yes. mr. jenner. with apologies to you, mr. mckenzie, that is the only way we can go at it because we don't have the actual response itself. mr. mckenzie. mr. jenner, i commend you on the way that you are conducting this interrogation. mr. jenner. thank you. mr. mckenzie. mr. oswald, under no circumstances speculate on what you wrote in answer to these letters. state to the best of your recollection only what you did write, if you recall. if you can't recall tell mr. jenner so. mr. oswald. yes, sir, this is what i have been doing, sir. mr. dulles. in view of the importance of this letter of november and certain other of these letters, as chairman and in view of the absence of a number of my colleagues today for unavoidable reasons, i think it might be well to insert the entire letter in the record and possibly certain other letters on which you are going to interrogate the witness. you see no objection? mr. mckenzie. none whatsoever, mr. chairman. mr. dulles. i have in mind that other members of the commission may not be able to read all of the exhibits but i think they should read these letters on which we are interrogating the witness. mr. mckenzie. yes, sir. mr. dulles. in order to get the full purport, flavor of this particular line of interrogation. mr. mckenzie. i couldn't concur more, mr. dulles. mr. dulles. we will leave it then to your discretion with mr. rankin to decide what letters should go in, in connection with his testimony. mr. mckenzie. i might add in that regard, mr. chairman, that i have no objection, whatsoever to any or all of the letters going into the record. mr. dulles. thank you. mr. jenner. they are already in the record. but you mean set forth in full in the record. mr. mckenzie. i would mark right now the spot in the record following the chairman's remarks and my concurrence and, of course, mr. jenner's suggestion that the letter be in its entirety placed in the record, i would mark that place now so that it could go in at this spot. mr. jenner. also the letter of november . and november letter. mr. jenner. proceed, mr. oswald. mr. oswald. i do not recall any other statements that i would have replied to, or did reply to, in my reply to his letter of november , . mr. jenner. all right, sir. now, did you receive any direct response to your letter, and your next letter is commission exhibit no. , sometime during the summer of , it is a short one-page letter. mr. oswald. this is december, , sir. mr. jenner. no, it is in the summer of , isn't it, or is that the one-page letter which you had written december , . mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and is that the next letter you received from your brother? mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. is there any reference in that letter to the response you made to the november letter? mr. oswald. no, sir. there is not. mr. jenner. did you receive any subsequent letter in which he made any direct response to your long letter which you wrote him in response to the letter of november ? mr. oswald. no, sir, he did not, and if i might say i wrote earlier and as a reminder to myself that i was concerned at the time i received the letter of december , . mr. jenner. that is commission exhibit . mr. oswald. that lee did not have time to receive my reply to his letter of november , . mr. jenner. i see. then the next letter you received, at least in the series you have produced, is may , , a two-page letter, commission exhibit . mr. oswald. could i have that date again, please, sir? mr. jenner. may , . mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. he makes no response in that letter to your response to his letter of november . mr. oswald. no, sir, he does not. perhaps, sir, the only way that i can be aware that he received my letter in reply to november letter, to his letter of november , , i did enclose one photograph of my daughter cathy marie oswald at the age of years old in that letter. mr. jenner. in your response to his letter of november ? mr. oswald. yes, sir; and at a later date lee was to tell me that he did keep this photograph, so he did receive my letter. mr. jenner. would you repeat what you just said, sir, or would you read it, mr. reporter? (the reporter read the answer.) mr. jenner. you said lee was to tell you, did you mean by that expression that he actually acknowledged receipt of the photograph? mr. oswald. yes, sir, he did. mr. jenner. which leads you to believe necessarily then that he received your response to his letter of november . mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. did he state that he had received that photograph in a letter that he wrote you or was that orally after he returned to the united states? mr. oswald. i believe this was orally, sir. mr. jenner. after he returned to the united states? mr. oswald. yes, sir, that is correct. mr. jenner. now, returning to his short stay at fort worth upon his being discharged from the marines, what do you recall, if anything, of any discussion respecting his financial status at that time, that is whether he was in funds and if so, what volume of funds. mr. oswald. i was not aware of his financial situation at that time. mr. jenner. was it discussed? mr. oswald. not that i recall, sir. mr. jenner. did any member of the family, during that period of time, ever discuss with you, having in turn discussed that subject matter with lee? mr. oswald. no, sir, they did not. mr. jenner. did you ever have a conversation with your mother prior to november , respecting lee's financial status at the period of time when he was immediately--right at the time he was discharged from the marines? mr. oswald. no, sir; i did not. i do not remember one. mr. jenner. so that up to november , , there was never any discussion in which you participated or which you overheard on that subject? mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. now, with respect to the remaining series of letters, were you ever advised while your brother lee was in russia how much money he was given or earned? mr. oswald. while he was---- mr. jenner. or he received? mr. oswald. while he was in russia employed? mr. jenner. while he was in russia. mr. oswald. while he was in russia. mr. jenner. either from his employment or by gift. mr. oswald. yes, sir; there is a reply in one of these letters that i received from lee from russia stating how much he was making while employed in russia. mr. jenner. the letter will, of course, be the best evidence of that. did he say it in terms of dollars or in terms of rubles, what is your recollection? mr. oswald. in both, sir. i believe he stated it in the words rubles and in parentheses in the amount of american dollars. mr. jenner. i see, we will find that out. mr. oswald. and i believe on a monthly basis. mr. jenner. did he ever write you as to whether he had received any money by way of gift from any agency in russia? mr. oswald. no, sir. mr. mckenzie. mr. jenner, i respectfully submit that the letters themselves would be the best evidence. mr. jenner. you are undoubtedly correct and i will desist. did you have any discussion with him on that subject after he returned from russia? mr. oswald. no, sir, i did not. mr. jenner. or on the subject of his earnings in russia? mr. oswald. none that i recall, sir. mr. jenner. did you receive any packages or gifts from russia while your brother was there? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i did. mr. jenner. what did you receive? mr. oswald. well---- mr. jenner. and give the approximate times. mr. oswald. there again, sir, there is a letter from lee in russia stating that he had sent a gift or gifts to us at my residence in fort worth, tex. i recall that on two occasions we received gifts from russia at my address in fort worth, tex. i believe the first one consisted of russian cigarettes, russian candy, six place mats or six napkins that marina had embroidered herself. mr. mckenzie. or at least what they told you marina had embroidered. mr. oswald. yes, sir. and also a russian wooden doll, the type that pops open in the middle and has a smaller doll on the inside and so forth down the line until you end up with one approximately an inch high from one originating from one six or seven inches high. that was the first package that i recall receiving from lee and his wife while they were in russia. mr. jenner. approximately when was that? mr. oswald. prior to christmas of . mr. jenner. there was a second occasion when you received a package? mr. oswald. yes, sir, that is correct. mr. jenner. what was that? mr. oswald. this was closer to christmas of . mr. jenner. and it contained what? mr. oswald. it contained one russian children's book. mr. jenner. in the russian language or in english? mr. oswald. in the russian language, sir, and going by the cover of the book and as you open the book in the center section, a russian rocket ship would unfold and be standing in the launch position, and was quite evident by the pictures, at least in the book, that this was a book for russian children depicting the russian efforts toward their space program. mr. jenner. do you still have that book? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i do. and there was also another children's book, and i believe this package only consisted of a present for cathy marie oswald for christmas, from her aunt and uncle, lee and marina. mr. jenner. a child's gift? mr. oswald. yes, sir, and the second book was a child's coloring book, a russian coloring book. mr. jenner. does that exhaust your recollection as to gifts you received from them or from lee while they were in russia? mr. oswald. yes, sir, it does. mr. jenner. did he ever send you a pair of boots? mr. oswald. no, sir, he did not. and i might add we also still have the child's coloring book that was received at that time for christmas, . mr. jenner. all right, sir. now, would you please relate to us everything that your brother lee told you about hunting in russia? mr. mckenzie. you mean other than in correspondence? mr. jenner. i mean other than by the correspondence. i should precede that by the question did you have any conversation with him about hunting in russia? mr. oswald. yes, sir, i did. mr. jenner. and that occurred after he returned to the united states? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. fix the approximate date. mr. oswald. approximately the latter part of june, . mr. jenner. while he was residing in your home? mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. what did he say? excuse me, this occurred in your home? mr. oswald. yes, sir; it did. mr. jenner. was anyone present other than yourself and your brother? mr. oswald. perhaps marina and my wife vada. as i best remember the conversation, since our interest in hunting was mutual, that he had on two or three occasions gone bird hunting or duck hunting and that he had killed some birds and some ducks on two or three of these occasions that he had gone in, that he had only used a shotgun, that they were not allowed to have a rifle. mr. jenner. was there any discussion of that subject matter on any other occasion prior to november , ? mr. oswald. i believe in his letters---- mr. jenner. no, discussions. mr. oswald. pardon me, no, sir; there was not, not that i recall. mr. jenner. did you have any discussion with him during the period from his return in june of up to november , , of his membership in a gun club while he was in russia? mr. oswald. no, sir; i did not. mr. jenner. did any discussion occur between you as to his membership in any other group while he was in russia, whether it was a gun club, a social club, a labor union or otherwise? mr. oswald. none that i recall, sir. mr. jenner. in one of the letters, your brother lee asked you whether, to check to see if, the united states had any, lodged any charges against him. do you recall that? mr. oswald. briefly, yes, sir. mr. jenner. what did you do when he made that request to you, if any? mr. oswald. i recall replying to his letter and stated that to my knowledge, and i could see no reason why they would have any charges against him for going to russia, because he was an american citizen, and he was free to do as he chooses as long as it was not harmful to the united states government and i didn't feel like he had done anything harmful to the united states government by going to russia. mr. jenner. did you ever write in any of the letters that you wrote him, did you raise the question with him of whether he had in fact renounced or attempted to renounce his united states citizenship? mr. oswald. i was advised that, at the time, that we became aware that lee was in russia by newspaper correspondents in fort worth, tex., that the united states embassy acting on their own accord, would not allow him to sign any final papers denouncing his united states citizenship. whether he wanted to or not they were attempting to prevent him from doing this. i never did hear any more about that. perhaps during the correspondence or on his return from russia, this was certainly evident that he had not signed any final papers denouncing his united states citizenship. mr. jenner. i take it from your response, sir, that you did not raise that matter with him in any letters that you wrote to him? mr. oswald. not to my recollection, sir. mr. jenner. did you have any discussion with him on the subject on his return to the united states? mr. oswald. possibly so, sir. mr. jenner. do you recall that distinctly at the moment? mr. oswald. no, sir, i do not. mr. jenner. did your brother lee raise again with you, following your response to his request that you investigate whether or not there were any other charges against him; did he raise again with you the question of whether you had made an investigation, whether there were charges? mr. mckenzie. when you say did he raise again---- mr. jenner. at any time subsequent thereto, that is apart from the correspondence which has been introduced in evidence. mr. mckenzie. there are several instances in the correspondence, mr. jenner, there are questions raised about this. are you talking about after he returned from--to the united states from the soviet union? mr. jenner. yes, sir; i am at the moment. mr. mckenzie. all right. mr. oswald. no, sir; not to my recollection. mr. jenner. when he returned to the united states and while he was living with you, was there or were there any occasions in which there was discussion of his trip back from russia and the course they took in returning to the united states, the means and manner of return? mr. oswald. yes, sir; there was. mr. jenner. give us your recollection of what that discussion was and what your brother and/or marina said to you and your wife vada or either of them? mr. oswald. i recall asking him how his trip was from russia to new york city by boat. i asked him what route they had traveled, and he advised me then, that is as i believe he advised me in one of his letters, the first one, was to go from minsk to moscow and then from moscow to holland, i believe, to board a ship that touched at england, and from england to new york city. mr. jenner. did he or they---- mr. oswald. he. mr. jenner. this is a conversation with him? mr. oswald. yes, sir, that is correct. mr. jenner. did you have any conversation with marina on this subject or in her presence? mr. oswald. not that i recall, no, sir. mr. jenner. but he did state specifically that they had gone to moscow? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and from moscow to where? mr. oswald. to holland, if my memory serves me correct, sir. mr. jenner. did he say, did he indicate, how they had traveled from moscow to holland, by what means of conveyance? mr. oswald. no, sir, he did not. mr. jenner. was anything said about how long they stayed in moscow before they took off for holland? mr. oswald. in this discussion, i do not recall that he did, sir. mr. jenner. and did he say how long they stayed in holland, if they stayed there at all? mr. oswald. no, sir, he did not. mr. jenner. but you do recall his stating specifically they touched england in the sense that the ship---- mr. oswald. yes, sir; for supplies or for some other reason, it appeared not to be, i say appeared, i assume it was not a very long stay there and that they did not leave the ship. mr. jenner. he did state that they did not leave the ship at that point? mr. oswald. no, sir; this is an assumption on my part--the way he put it to me. mr. jenner. and they proceeded from there directly to new york harbor, new york city. mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is correct. mr. jenner. by what means? and he did report that to you? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. did this series of letters you received in the early portion, period of his stay in russia excite your suspicions as to whether he was or might be a russian agent? mr. oswald. if i understand the question correctly this was the early stay of his in russia in ? mr. jenner. yes, sir, and let us say to the early part of . mr. oswald. no, sir. mr. jenner. did you have any occasion to discuss that subject during this period of time with your mother or she with you? mr. oswald. prior to his return in she did discuss this with me. mr. jenner. all right. where did this discussion take place? mr. oswald. if i may fix the date approximately, sir, if you could give me the date of her trip to washington, d.c. mr. jenner. you have me at a disadvantage because mr. liebeler has been called out and he can furnish that. i don't want to guess at it. mr. mckenzie. may i then ask if possibly the chairman might recall? mr. dulles. the date of that visit to washington? mr. mckenzie. yes, sir. mr. dulles. no, i don't think i do. mr. mckenzie. possibly mr. rankin might know. mr. jenner. our information was that that was january , . mr. oswald. thank you, sir. if i may have, the question again, please. (the question was read by the reporter.) mr. jenner. whether the suspicions, on the part of yourself or your mother, were that your brother was or might be an agent for the russian government. mr. oswald. pardon me, sir, i believe i misunderstood. i thought it was in reference to whether or not lee might have been an agent of the united states government. mr. jenner. no. it was the russian government i asked about. mr. oswald. i am sorry, sir. at no time was any discussion that i have been into indicated that in any way. mr. jenner. now, you have referred then to, or had in mind, a conversation with your mother as to whether your brother was an agent of the united states government. mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is correct. mr. jenner. and are you able to fix the time of that discussion now having been supplied with the date when your mother visited washington? mr. oswald. approximately the spring of . mr. jenner. several months following her visit to washington in january, . mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. where did that discussion take place? mr. oswald. i believe this was a telephone conversation, sir. mr. jenner. did you call her or did she call you? mr. oswald. she called me, sir. mr. jenner. and you recognized her voice, did you? mr. oswald. yes, sir, i did. mr. jenner. what did she say on the subject? mr. oswald. that she told me briefly about her trip to washington, and that she, as she put it, had seen various important people, and that she was reaching or coming to the conclusion that lee was an agent of one sort or another for the united states government. mr. jenner. did you respond to that? mr. oswald. i do not recall, sir, that i did; if so, what my response might have been. mr. jenner. you don't recall whether you responded, and if you did, you don't recall your response? mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. all right, have you given us now all your conversations you had with your mother on the subject of whether your brother, that is up to november , , as to whether your brother was or might have been an agent of the government of the united states or an agent of any other government including that of russia? mr. oswald. yes, sir, that is correct. mr. jenner. as you received these letters, particularly the series of letters in , up to the first of january, , did there occur to you the thought that your brother was or might be an agent of the russian government? mr. oswald. no, sir; it most certainly did not. mr. jenner. and at any time thereafter up to november , ? mr. oswald. no, sir; it has not. mr. jenner. did you have any contact with the state department or did the state department have any contact with you at any time while your brother was in russia? mr. mckenzie. mr. jenner, i believe the record will show there was a previous telegram to mr. christian herter who was secretary of state at the time. mr. jenner. other than the telegram you testified about yesterday. mr. oswald. no, sir. mr. jenner. did you have any conversations with your mother respecting her contacts, if any, with the state department during the period of time your brother was in russia? mr. oswald. no, sir, i did not. mr. jenner. did you at any time prior to november , , no, i will include that date, let's say at any time prior to december , , have any view or suspicion that marina oswald was or might have been an agent of the russian government? mr. oswald. no, sir; i did not. mr. jenner. in the letter of july , , being commission exhibit , your brother expresses or states, makes some derogatory comments respecting russia. is that the first information or knowledge that you had of any change of attitude on his part? mr. oswald. no, sir, it was not. mr. jenner. indicate the prior event that gave you some suspicion in that connection. mr. oswald. if i understand it correctly, sir, whether or not had i had any prior indication prior to receiving the letter of july , , that lee was becoming---- mr. jenner. disenchanted. mr. oswald. disenchanted with the russian way of life? mr. jenner. yes. mr. oswald. when i received his first letter from russia after a year or so of silence---- mr. jenner. give the date of the letter. there is a break between december , and may , . is it the letter of may of ? mr. oswald. i am referring to the letter of may , . mr. jenner. all right. it is commission exhibit . mr. oswald. it indicated to me, whether it so states in there or not, because he did start writing again that he was in fact disenchanted with the russian way of life. mr. jenner. this is the first letter you received after lee had gone to minsk, is it not? mr. oswald. yes, sir, that is correct. mr. jenner. and it is the first letter you received following the undated letter of, in december, , but that you have noted was received on the th of december, . mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. i take it then the subsequent letters heightened your impression of suspicion that he was becoming--either was completely or was becoming, disenchanted with russia. mr. oswald. yes, sir, in his letter it certainly doesn't indicate that he was, but it was my opinion at that time and still is that he was then---- mr. jenner. after you had read that letter, meaning the letter of may , , which is commission exhibit , you felt that, or you had the reaction that, he was becoming disenchanted with russia? mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. and that was later confirmed by subsequent letters in which he expressly stated---- mr. mckenzie. disenchantment. mr. oswald. yes, sir, that is correct. (discussion off the record.) mr. jenner. there appears to be on some of the envelopes now in evidence some stamps. they are in russian but they may indicate that they are stamps placed upon those envelopes by a censor, and we will now undertake to investigate that circumstance. mr. mckenzie. would you like for me to tell you which ones? mr. jenner. if you will give me the dates i will recite the exhibit numbers. mr. mckenzie. it is june , . mr. jenner. that is commission exhibit no. . mr. mckenzie. august , . mr. jenner. is the envelope dated august ? mr. mckenzie. yes. mr. jenner. would you see if that contains a one-page letter; oh, yes, august , that is commission exhibit no. . you need not do it. mr. mckenzie. and september , . mr. jenner. that is commission exhibit no. . mr. mckenzie. and i call the commission's attention particularly to the word stamped on the envelope "recommende" for whatever it means. mr. dulles. that is french. mr. jenner. would you please relate, mr. oswald, marina's ability to speak or understand english at the time that she and your brother returned from russia in june of ? mr. oswald. her ability to understand was far less than her ability to speak english words. i spoke to her on the telephone the night of june , from new york city, to my residence in fort worth, tex., and her statement to me at that time was, "hello, robert." i replied but no answer, and lee took the telephone over again. mr. jenner. during the month they lived in your home, were you better able to form an opinion as to her ability to speak and understand english? mr. oswald. i believe the best way to establish the degree of what she understood in english at that time and her ability to speak the english language would be very, very, very small, if anything at all. mr. jenner. as to her facility in that regard--did her facility in that regard become better as the months and years wore on? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. was there any discussion which you overheard or with you, respecting her undertaking to study, learn to speak, english? mr. oswald. yes, sir; she most certainly wanted to learn to speak english at the time, and she was staying at my home in fort worth, tex., and prior to their departure from fort worth, tex., to dallas, tex., in the winter of . mr. jenner. what was your brother's attitude with respect to her desires in that respect? mr. oswald. i do not recall him stating his desires in that respect either pro or con. mr. jenner. you have no impressions on the subject either way? mr. oswald. no, sir. i might have an impression, pardon me, that he wanted her particularly at the time we were staying, they were staying at my home in fort worth, tex., to learn english. mr. jenner. that was expressed in your presence during that period of time by him? mr. oswald. not in so many words, sir. it was perhaps implied, and he left me with the impression that he wanted her to learn english at that time or as soon as she possibly could, and i might add that on a number of occasions during the visit at my home in fort worth, tex., that my daughter cathy, with her childhood language in , which would establish her age at years old, would talk to her and it appeared that she would gather more english from cathy than she would the adults in the family. mr. jenner. did the state department or any agency of the united states, get in touch with you with respect to your supplying funds or the possibility of your supplying funds to your brother while he was still in russia for the purpose of financing his return to the united states? mr. oswald. no, sir; they did not. mr. jenner. did any agency of the united states or any public body located in new york city get in touch with you with respect to supplying him funds for his transportation from new york city to fort worth? mr. oswald. yes, sir, they did. mr. jenner. was that the initial request or knowledge to you that you received that funds were necessary, or would be needed for that purpose? mr. oswald. yes, sir, that is correct. mr. jenner. do you remember the name of the agency? was it the one that you identified yesterday? mr. oswald. yes, sir, it was. mr. jenner. all right. in his letter of november , , he makes a request for a football. did you send the football to him? mr. oswald. no, sir, i did not. mr. jenner. in the letter of december , , which is commission exhibit no. , he makes a reference to the fact that he had not received any letter with "certain" questions. apparently questions that you had put to him. mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. do you have that letter? mr. oswald. the letter of july ? mr. jenner. no, this is december . mr. oswald. pardon me. mr. jenner. that is commission exhibit . it is two pages. mr. oswald. yes, sir, i have the letter. mr. jenner. does that refresh your recollection as to some letter you had written him prior thereto? mr. oswald. yes, sir, i do. mr. jenner. will you state what the letter was and whether it was in response to an earlier letter? mr. oswald. no, sir, it was not in response--it was a response to an earlier letter from lee. i did in an effort to determine whether or not all my letters---- mr. jenner. the last prior letter was the letter of november , , commission exhibit , and then immediately prior to that was the letter of november , , commission exhibit . mr. oswald. in reference to the question regarding that letter of december , , at which time he stated "i did not receive any letter with 'certain' questions." i did write him a letter at which time i recall raising two political type questions to see whether or not he would receive---- mr. jenner. he would respond? mr. oswald. sir? mr. jenner. to see whether he would respond, did you say? mr. oswald. to see whether or not he would receive the letter itself. mr. jenner. i am sorry, i thought you said to receive. mr. oswald. i believe, sir; if my memory serves me correct in some earlier letters he refers there to some russian censors he felt like were censoring his mail and my mail also and i wanted to find out in my own way whether this was so or not. i might say that was the only time i attempted to raise any type of political questions in my response to any of his letters or any other letters that i sent him, because i did want the letters to go through rather than be destroyed or not received by him. mr. jenner. we can draw our own inference as to whether he received your letter. was there any discussion of the subject after return to the united states, that is, the subject whether he had received your letter? mr. oswald. not to my recollection, sir. mr. jenner. did you have any discussion with your brother on the subject of his undesirable discharge after he returned to the united states? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i did. mr. jenner. and when was that? was it more than one occasion? mr. oswald. i believe, sir, only on one occasion did we discuss that matter. mr. jenner. when was that? where was it? mr. oswald. approximately june at my home in fort worth, tex. mr. jenner. who was present? mr. oswald. i believe just lee and i were present in this one room which was the living room of our home. mr. jenner. in your home? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. what did he say? mr. oswald. he said he wanted to go down the next day to the marine corps office in fort worth, tex., and discuss with them and perhaps find out what action he needed to take to have this corrected to an honorable discharge. mr. jenner. what did you say? mr. oswald. my reply to him on that was that i thought that that was a good idea and that he might raise the question at the marine corps office in fort worth, tex., if i could be of some assistance in writing the marine corps office directly on behalf of him. i do not recall if he made this trip to the marine corps office. i do not recall any further conversation in reference to his dishonorable discharge. mr. jenner. would you turn your attention now to the letter of may , , shortly before he returned to the united states? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. commission exhibit . as i recall that letter, he refers to some things that you had said when he departed for russia. do you find that portion of the letter? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i do. mr. jenner. would you read it aloud, please, just that portion? mr. mckenzie. may i interrupt you at this point, mr. jenner? please, mr. chairman. mr. dulles. certainly, proceed. mr. mckenzie. the two letters of november and november which we should make copies of for the purposes of the record, if you will pull them out of your file there i will--do you want to take the originals? mr. jenner. that will be the best way of doing it. mr. mckenzie. except that yours are already marked with the exhibit number. i have no objection. i will find out who i should see about making these. mr. jenner. why do you not make them on the xerox machine? i had asked you to read that portion of the letter so we can place the matter in context. mr. oswald. "i know what was said about me when i left the united states as mother sent me clippings from the newspapers. however, i realize it was just the shock of the news which made you say all those things. however, i will just remind you again not to make any statement or comments if you are approached by the newspapers between now and the time we actually arrive in the united states." mr. jenner. is he referring then to things that were reported in the newspaper clippings that you said or is he referring to something you said to him before he departed for russia, or is he referring to something you said in a letter you may have written him when he was in russia? mr. oswald. he is referring, sir, to the clippings of newspapers that mother had sent him containing reportedly my statements to the newspapers at the time we were advised on october , that lee was in russia. mr. jenner. did you have occasion to make any comments to newspaper reporters when it became known that he was about to return to the united states? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i did. mr. jenner. and did those come to your brother's attention? mr. oswald. no, sir; they did not. mr. jenner. did you ever discuss them or he with you? mr. oswald. when the newspaper reporters contacted me prior to his arrival in new york city, i did not divulge my knowledge of his departure as per this letter of may , , the approximate date he would be in the united states. i did not give them any indication whatsoever at that time that he was leaving the soviet union. mr. jenner. did you ever respond to that particular letter? mr. oswald. no, sir; i did not. mr. dulles. may i ask a question here? you indicated that your brother was disappointed when he arrived at love airfield and the newspapermen were not there when he came back from russia. did the newspapermen thereafter talk with your brother at your house or elsewhere? mr. oswald. they attempted to, sir. i say "they." it was, more specifically, one newspaperman. mr. jenner. but he did not succeed in getting an interview? mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. reference is made in your brother's letter to you of november , , which is commission exhibit , to thanksgiving dinner. would you obtain that exhibit, please? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i have it. mr. dulles. what thanksgiving, ? mr. jenner. , sir. was the thanksgiving dinner held at your home on thanksgiving day, november ? mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. would you tell us all of the circumstances preceding, leading up to and what occurred on that date and who attended the thanksgiving dinner? mr. oswald. lee and marina and their small child had moved to dallas, tex. mr. jenner. where in dallas, tex.? do you recall? mr. oswald. i did not have any address, sir. i had only a post office box, box , dallas, tex. mr. jenner. all right. mr. oswald. my older brother john had called me from san antonio, tex., prior to thanksgiving , indicating that he was going to be able to take a leave---- mr. jenner. excuse me, mr. oswald. mr. chairman, there is some confusion respecting this thanksgiving dinner. mr. oswald. where john was stationed in the air force--he called me from san antonio stating that he would be able to take a leave during the period of thanksgiving of november and that they would travel from san antonio, tex., to my home in fort worth, tex. i wrote lee and asked him would it be possible for him to join us at that time with his family. mr. jenner. did you indicate in your letter that his brother john and wife were to join you on that occasion? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i did. mr. jenner. did you indicate that anyone in addition, to wit, your mother, was also to join you on that occasion? mr. oswald. no, sir; i did not. mr. jenner. all right. mr. oswald. in reference to the letter dated november , , from lee harvey oswald---- mr. jenner. that is commission exhibit . mr. oswald. it replied to my letter: "in answer to your kind invitation for thanksgiving, we love to come and will be in fort worth thanksgiving morning and we shall come by bus and give you a ring on the phone from the bus station (about : ). see you soon. lee." mr. jenner. did he come to fort worth? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. for that particular occasion? mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. when did he arrive? mr. oswald. approximately nine to ten o'clock in the morning. mr. jenner. of thanksgiving day? mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is correct. mr. jenner. was he accompanied by anyone? mr. oswald. yes, sir; he was. mr. jenner. who? mr. oswald. marina n. oswald and the baby june lee oswald. mr. jenner. did all of you have thanksgiving dinner on that day? mr. oswald. yes, sir; we did. mr. jenner. did both lee and marina attend that dinner? mr. oswald. yes, sir; they did. mr. jenner. and john pic and his wife? mr. oswald. yes, sir; they did. mr. jenner. you and your wife? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. your children? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. the children of lee and marina? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. mckenzie. the child. there was only one at that time. mr. jenner. that is right, the child june. anyone else? mr. oswald. the children of john and marge pic. mr. jenner. but your mother did not attend the dinner? mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. had you invited her? mr. oswald. no, sir; i had not. mr. jenner. as far as you know, she was unaware of it? mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is correct. mr. jenner. was any comment made that she was not present, about the fact that she was not present at the dinner? mr. oswald. no, sir; there was not. mr. jenner. was anything said about what your brother lee was doing by way of employment in dallas? mr. oswald. yes, sir; there was. mr. jenner. what was said, and by whom? mr. oswald. i feel like i had asked lee what he was doing at that particular time, and his reply to me was that he was working for a traffic outfit in dallas, the name of which i do not recall. however, he did state the name of the firm. i do not recall the name of the firm. and that it was to him very interesting work. he thought that he could perhaps learn this type of work and progress in it quite ably. mr. dulles. how did he appear to you mentally and physically on this occasion of the thanksgiving dinner? mr. oswald. very fit physically and very alert mentally. mr. jenner. discussion on that day occurred between you and your half-brother, john pic, did it not, respecting your brother lee's un-american beliefs? mr. oswald. yes, sir; it did. mr. jenner. would you relate that discussion between yourself--was it confined to a discussion between yourself and john pic? mr. oswald. yes, sir; it was. mr. jenner. did you raise the subject? mr. oswald. i believe i did, sir. mr. jenner. you were concerned about his un-american beliefs, were you not? mr. oswald. i was not concerned about them. i wanted to state to john, since he had not been in contact with lee when lee was in russia, or when he was at my home in fort worth, that this conversation took place. mr. jenner. you state it. mr. dulles. was john present? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. dulles. he was present. mr. mckenzie. it was to john. mr. dulles. was he present? mr. oswald. no, sir; he was not. i was about to say that this conversation took place on our way from my house to the bus station to pick up lee, marina and june the morning of thanksgiving . i do not recall the circumstances preceding this particular point of why i brought it up other than i do recall mentioning that the fbi had talked to lee and apparently that everything was all right because they were not proceeding to discuss with him at any length and they were not holding him for any reason, so i assumed that everything was all right in that respect. mr. jenner. i see. have you exhausted your present recollection of that conversation? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i have. mr. dulles. how did you know that the fbi had talked with lee? mr. oswald. lee had told me and i was aware that they had called my house and requested lee to come down to their office in fort worth and talk with them. mr. dulles. did he report to you on that conversation at all? the details of it? mr. oswald. a very small detail of it, sir. mr. jenner. what details? mr. oswald. i asked him when i returned home from work that afternoon how did it go. he said, "just fine." he said they asked him at the last whether or not he was an agent for the united states government. his reply was "don't you know?" mr. jenner. you recited that yesterday. mr. mckenzie. this was testified to yesterday. it is repetition. mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. did you at that time say to john that the fbi had--excuse me--had assured you that lee was all right and not dangerous to our country? mr. oswald. no, sir; i had not. mr. jenner. did you say to john on that occasion or any other occasion that he need not worry about lee in connection with possible danger to our country? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i did. mr. jenner. when was that? mr. oswald. this was on the same occasion on the trip to the bus station as i have so indicated, that i had assumed, since they were not holding lee or questioning him to any frequency, because at that time they had only questioned him to my knowledge one time, that everything as far as un-american views that he expressed when he went to russia, everything was cleared and they had no reason to hold him or suspect him of anything. mr. dulles. did you know about the fair play for cuba incident in new orleans at this time? mr. oswald. no, sir; i did not. mr. jenner. did your brother lee and marina leave your home after thanksgiving dinner? mr. oswald. yes, sir; they did. mr. jenner. that same day? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. did you have occasion to see your brother at any time from that moment when he departed until sometime on the d of november ? mr. oswald. no, sir; i did not. mr. mckenzie. mr. jenner, may i interrupt you one more time? in response to your question, mr. chairman, it is my best recollection, and i may be wrong and stand to be corrected if i am wrong, that the fair play for cuba or the pro-castro leaflets that he was handing out in new orleans was in the summer of . mr. dulles. i think you may be right. do you remember that? mr. jenner. yes, that is correct. mr. dulles. that is correct. it had not taken place. mr. mckenzie. it had not taken place in november of . mr. dulles. right. mr. mckenzie. to the best of our knowledge. mr. jenner. did the witness have any opportunity to respond to my last question? mr. mckenzie. you had finished your question and i interrupted you before you could make another question. mr. jenner. you mean the witness had responded to it? mr. dulles. no; i do not think he had. mr. jenner. would you read the pending question? (the last question was read by the reporter.) mr. jenner. did you see marina at any time subsequent to their departure on thanksgiving day, november and november , ? mr. oswald. no, sir; i had not. mr. dulles. did you have any telephone conversations with either of them? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i had. mr. jenner. in the interim period? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i had. mr. jenner. were there a number of those or were they infrequent? mr. oswald. i recall only one, sir. mr. jenner. when did that take place? mr. oswald. approximately two or three weeks after thanksgiving of . mr. jenner. that would be sometime then in december of ? mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. did you call him or did he call you? mr. oswald. no, sir; he called me. mr. jenner. you recognized his voice? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and was it day or night? mr. oswald. it was, i believe it was sunday afternoon, sir. mr. jenner. sunday afternoon. and what was the occasion of his making that call as you recall it? mr. oswald. that he was in town briefly. mr. jenner. in fort worth? mr. oswald. in fort worth, tex., and that i asked would we see him; he said no, they were visiting some friends. mr. jenner. "they" meaning he and marina? mr. oswald. yes, sir, and that they would be leaving for dallas very shortly. mr. jenner. that was a social call? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. you have given the full of the conversation? mr. oswald. to the best of my remembrance; yes, sir. it was very short. mr. jenner. did you have occasion to talk to marina over the telephone on that particular time? mr. oswald. no, sir; i did not. mr. jenner. did he talk with any other member of your family on that occasion? mr. oswald. no, sir; he did not. mr. jenner. other than that telephone conversation, had you had any other conversation with your brother lee from the time on thanksgiving day, november to the time you saw him on november , ? mr. oswald. i did not see him on november---- mr. mckenzie. he did not see him on that day. mr. oswald. on november , . mr. mckenzie. he saw him on november , . mr. jenner. then my question is november . mr. oswald. no, sir; i had not had any conversation with him after november , thanksgiving day, other than the one i have mentioned, up to the time of november , . mr. dulles. did you make any attempts to get in touch with him in that period? mr. oswald. only through the mail, sir. mr. jenner. i was about to come to that. did you have any correspondence with him in the sense of your dispatching a letter or note or he dispatching one to you? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i did. mr. jenner. did you retain the correspondence insofar as anything you received from him is concerned? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i did. mr. mckenzie. and that has previously been furnished to the commission. mr. jenner. it has previously been furnished and it is, i see, a postcard which is dated as i recall--you give the date. mr. oswald. we are still referring to the period after november , thanksgiving day? mr. jenner. yes, we are. mr. oswald. all right, sir. one postcard dated january , . mr. jenner. and that is commission exhibit . did you receive any other correspondence? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i did. mr. jenner. and do you have it there? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i do. mr. jenner. and it is a letter dated? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. what date? mr. oswald. march , . mr. jenner. and that is commission exhibit . did you receive any other correspondence from him? mr. oswald. no, sir; i have not. mr. jenner. did you dispatch any to him? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i had. mr. jenner. did they have any relation to either of the exhibits you have now identified? mr. oswald. no, sir; they did not. mr. jenner. that is, neither exhibit nor exhibit was in response to any communication that you had dispatched to him? mr. oswald. pardon me, sir, i was incorrect on that. the letter of march , was in response to a letter i had written him approximately the first week of march . mr. jenner. did you retain a copy of the letter you sent him? and if you made one, did you retain a copy? mr. oswald. no, sir; no copy was made and i did not retain it. mr. jenner. would you state the contents of your letter? mr. oswald. it was, briefly, sir, that we had moved to malvern, ark. i informed him of my new address and advised him that i had placed my home in fort worth, tex., up for sale, and i had been given an opportunity by the company for a better and higher position, and that i had taken this opportunity and moved to malvern, ark. and requested, if possible, we would like to have them visit us. mr. dulles. when did you move to malvern, approximately? mr. oswald. the fifth day of march , sir. mr. dulles. and how long were you there? mr. oswald. to september , , sir. mr. dulles. and then you returned to---- mr. oswald. no, sir. then i moved to denton, tex. mr. dulles. denton, tex.? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. so that at the time of the event, november , , you were residing in malvern, tex.? mr. oswald. no, sir; i was residing in denton, tex. mr. jenner. i should have said malvern, ark., anyhow. mr. dulles. let's see, you were then in malvern, ark., from march , to approximately september ? mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is correct. mr. jenner. that is where i misunderstood. i thought he said december. all right, sir. i take it then at least from thanksgiving day, , and the d day of november, , you never had any discussions with robert with respect to his desire, if any, to return to russia, with lee rather? mr. oswald. no, sir; i did not. mr. jenner. did you ever have any discussion with him on that subject? mr. oswald. no, sir; i did not. mr. jenner. did you ever have any discussion with him or he with you or with marina or she with you on her return to russia, whether he desired it or she did? mr. oswald. during that period? mr. jenner. prior to november , . mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. when did that discussion that you now have in mind take place? mr. oswald. at my home in june of , sir. mr. jenner. who was present? mr. oswald. my wife vada and lee. mr. jenner. with marina i take it? mr. oswald. and marina was there. yes, sir; i was having a conversation or she was having something of a conversation with me. mr. jenner. before you give the conversation, was there ever any other occasion up to and including november , when you had a discussion with your brother or with marina respecting the return of either of them to russia? mr. oswald. no, sir; i only recall this one occasion. mr. jenner. state what was said, please, and by whom. mr. oswald. this was said by marina oswald in june of in very broken english: "i never want to go to russia again." mr. jenner. return to russia? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and that was said in the presence of your brother lee, your presence and your wife's presence? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i feel certain that all four of us were present. mr. jenner. did your brother say anything on that occasion? mr. oswald. no, sir. mr. jenner. as to that subject matter? mr. oswald. no, sir. mr. jenner. this took place in your home? how long after they had returned from russia did this conversation take place? mr. mckenzie. what was that question? mr. oswald. i would say or weeks. mr. jenner. one or two weeks after they had returned from russia? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. dulles. that is when they were staying with you after their return? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. at any time prior to november , , were you aware or did any incident arise or conversation take place indicating any desire on your brother lee's part to go to cuba? mr. oswald. no, sir; it did not. mr. jenner. or to mexico? mr. oswald. no, sir; it did not. mr. jenner. or any other country than the united states? mr. oswald. no, sir; there was not. mr. dulles. was there any particular reason why you did not have some contact with lee during the period november, thanksgiving , and your departure for arkansas in march of ? mr. oswald. no, sir; none that i was aware of. i did write him on two or three occasions asking him to advise me of his address in dallas, tex., so when i had an opportunity either on business or otherwise passing through where i could possibly stop and see him, if not marina and the child. his response to this was as it is stated in the letter of march , , that generally he was moving and it was not settled and he would always retain the post office box in dallas, tex., where i might reach him through the mail and that i would not be able to see him or his family when i came through town. mr. dulles. did that surprise you? mr. oswald. it did not at first, sir, because i realized he was not settled as to a stable job and to an apartment. however, it did concern me later, and i refer to my letter that i wrote him in march of which he replied to on march or march , . mr. jenner. which is commission exhibit . mr. oswald. that i would like to have an address other than a post office box, and when again he did not furnish me this information, i did not respond to his letter of march , . the last time i wrote him was in september when i returned to texas and our moving into denton, tex., advising him of my new address, and still at that time requesting again an address where they were staying at in dallas so that i might contact him, since again we were close together, approximately miles away. mr. jenner. and he did not respond to that? mr. oswald. no, sir; he never responded to that letter that i wrote him in september other than on the day that i visited him at dallas county jail or dallas city jail on november , , he did say before i had an opportunity to say anything to him, "robert, you now are living in denton, aren't you?" and i said yes. in other words, he had received my letter of september . mr. jenner. this was elicited by mr. dulles' question, his failure to advise you in due course eventually here as late as september of his location in dallas aroused some suspicions, doubts or a question in your mind? mr. oswald. it did to this extent, that i thought perhaps---- mr. jenner. keep in mind all this history also, mr. oswald. mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. that you testified about. mr. oswald. that perhaps he was angry at us or did not want to have anything to do with us. however, it was also my thinking on this that this would be out of character for him because he normally would keep in contact with me and let me have his address and so forth, even though he had furnished a post office box at first and which i understood, but his failure to give me an address indicated---- mr. jenner. despite your at least two requests? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. or three requests? mr. oswald. indicated to me that perhaps something of a different nature was going on that i was not aware of, whether he was having trouble with marina and perhaps the baby, and they were not getting along and he did not want me to become aware of this situation; this would be my only speculation on that, sir. mr. dulles. did your wife have any contact with marina over this period we are discussing from thanksgiving of to november ? mr. oswald. no, sir; she did not. mr. jenner. did she ever indicate to you that she made any effort to effect a contact with marina? mr. oswald. did my wife? no, sir; she did not. mr. jenner. in the light, mr. oswald, of the fact that your brother, as you testified, you thought looked up to you in his youth at least, in the light of his departure for russia, in the light of the correspondence that you had with him in russia about which you have testified, in the light of the conversations that you had with him upon his return, did not the fact that you did not hear from him for as long a period as from thanksgiving day of to well into the fall of raise any question in your mind beyond that which you have now testified about? mr. oswald. no, sir. mr. jenner. that it might be something other than possible marital difficulties? mr. oswald. no, sir. of course, i refer to the postcard of january , , and the letter of march , , which i would state other than the fact that he did not advise me of his residence in dallas, tex.---- mr. jenner. despite the fact that you requested it? mr. oswald. right, that the infrequency of the mail at this time was going back to prior to the time that he was in russia, to the extent that he was not writing frequently then when he was in the service and so forth, and then again i thought that he was returning to this, because i was also not writing him as frequently as we had while he was in russia. and it is my opinion, sir, that lee felt that he had caused me enough difficulty, that he did not want to in any way, even though i had offered my assistance after his return from russia, in any way that i possibly could, that he did not want to burden me in case he was in any financial difficulty or any other difficulty. mr. jenner. all right, thank you. i am going to attempt to cover in general terms, mr. chairman, representative ford's questions and see if i can shorten up the examination in that respect. mr. dulles. could i have just a word with you for just a moment. (short recess.) mr. jenner. you are acquainted at least by hearsay at the moment, are you not, with respect to an alleged attack having been made by your brother upon general walker? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i am. mr. jenner. it is that to which i wish to direct a question. did you have any knowledge or information of any kind or character at any time prior to november , , of that incident? mr. oswald. no, sir; i did not. mr. jenner. no one had spoken to you about it? mr. oswald. no, sir; they had not. mr. jenner. when did it first come to your attention? mr. oswald. in the newspaper. i believe this to be sometime in the latter part of december or january . mr. jenner. it was subsequent to your brother's death? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and you had no information direct or indirect of any kind or character, scuttlebutt, hearsay or otherwise, up to that moment? mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. dulles. did you know of any acts of violence that your brother had carried out or had contemplated or attempted during his life other than school boy antics? mr. oswald. no, sir; i was not. i have never known him to attempt or indicate to attempt to carry out any type of violence other than a schoolboy---- mr. jenner. was he given to tantrums? mr. oswald. no, sir; he was not. mr. dulles. did he ever seem to you to be a man who repressed himself, that he was boiling inside and that there were a great many emotions that he had that he was holding in? did you get that impression from your knowledge of him? mr. oswald. no, sir; i did not. i would say that lee's character was that he was more of a listener than a talker, not to the extent of being an introvert. i do not believe he was an introvert. mr. jenner. i was about to ask you that question. there have been people who have been interviewed, teachers and others, a good many of them as a matter of fact, who have described your brother as an introvert. your mother used the expression that he was a loner in a statement that she made to the authorities in new york city, and i think on this record. was he in your opinion, gathered from your actual experience with him during his lifetime, a loner, that is, a person who would tend to prefer to be by himself and not seek out friends, not necessarily repulse friends but not affirmatively seek them out? mr. oswald. i would say yes and no, sir, to that question if i may. mr. jenner. all right. would you expand then and explain your answer yes and no? mr. oswald. i feel like in the late s to about the time of my departure to the service in july of , that he did seek out friends, and that he did have friends. however, after my release from the service in , i do believe that he had become more grown to himself. mr. jenner. that is during the interim he had become, while you were away? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. you noticed a change in him when you returned from the service? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. is that what you mean to say? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. all right, proceed and describe that to us. mr. oswald. still my contact with him was limited, but he did appear to be drawn within himself more than he had been prior, and i do not know of any friends that he had at that particular time. one factor of course would be that he had moved quite frequently or a number of times during this period. mr. jenner. apart from the reason, for the moment, i seek to draw from you your personal reaction as to whether he had become more retiring and that you had actually noticed that difference in him? mr. oswald. well, to me, sir, he had become or appeared to become more drawn into himself to the extent that i noticed that he wanted to read more, and of course when he wanted to read he wanted to be by himself. however, to me personally at that time when we were together, if he did not wish to read, he seemed and appeared to be as he was prior to , sir. mr. jenner. did that state of mind or his action, did you notice that that persisted when he returned from russia? was he still of that retiring nature? mr. oswald. no, sir; he was not. i felt that he was more of a gregarious type person that wanted to mix with people and wanted to talk to people. mr. jenner. after he left your home and took residence with your mother and thereafter in various places in fort worth, did he seek you out? mr. oswald. yes, sir. he called me on a number of occasions at my office. mr. jenner. did he come by your home and visit you voluntarily without invitation? mr. oswald. i do not recall of any time, sir. i usually was talking to him on the telephone quite frequently during the period that he had moved out of my mother's apartment into their own duplex, to the extent that i always told him that if he would like to come out any time just to give me a ring and i would gladly pick them up and bring them out to the house and return them to their home. mr. jenner. did he do so? mr. oswald. no, sir; he did not. mr. dulles. there has been some testimony here before the commission to the general effect that in the latter period he broke pretty much away with some of the russian group of friends in dallas that marina had developed or liked to be with, and that is because she could talk russian. did you see anything of that, and can you throw any further light on that? mr. oswald. no, sir; i did not. i was aware or had become aware of this group or some other group of the russian-speaking population in dallas, and i was aware of mr. gregory in fort worth, tex., who had come to my house before lee and marina had moved out, to speak in the russian language to marina and to lee. i was not aware that--i was aware that he was talking with and becoming acquainted with this group of persons, and i was not aware of the fact that he was withdrawing from this group of people. mr. dulles. did you know anything about his relations with a certain man named de mohrenschildt? mr. oswald. no, sir; i did not. mr. jenner. is the name familiar to you? mr. oswald. no, sir; it is not. mr. mckenzie. off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. mckenzie. mr. dulles, who is the chairman of the session today, has asked mr. oswald if he knows or has heard of a man by the name of de mohrenschildt. robert oswald's answer i believe is reflected on the record that he did not know mr. de mohrenschildt. i have stated off the record to mr. dulles and to mr. jenner that i know george de mohrenschildt. i became acquainted with george de mohrenschildt in this manner. shortly after the law was passed in texas that we could have women jurors---- mr. jenner. could you fix that time? mr. mckenzie. no, i cannot, but it has been within the last five years. i would say. but shortly after the law was passed that we could have women jurors sitting in our courts, my wife happened to be on a jury in dallas, texas, in one of our district courts. sitting on that same jury with my wife, sally mckenzie was a man by the name of george de mohrenschildt. as a result of her jury experience in the trial of this case, in which he was a juror, i met george de mohrenschildt. i have since come to know him briefly, and in no way intimately. george de mohrenschildt at one time was married to a lady from pennsylvania by the name of wynne sharples. they were subsequently divorced in dallas. wynne sharples is an m.d. by profession. she comes from a well-known pennsylvania family, and her father has been engaged in the oil business under the name of sharples oil company. wynne sharples, following her divorce from george de mohrenschildt, remarried and married another m.d. mr. jenner. what is her married name? mr. mckenzie. i do not recall her married name, but i do believe that she and her then husband, and i presume her present husband, the doctor that she married, were engaged in medical research at some hospital in philadelphia or baltimore, looking to the cause and a cure of a children's ailment of a very serious nature, and i believe it was connected with some blood type ailment. mr. jenner. leukemia? mr. mckenzie. no, it was not leukemia. there was an article on wynne sharples in one of the magazine supplements of either the dallas times-herald or the dallas morning news, within the past five years. george de mohrenschildt has subsequently remarried, and some time within the past two years there was an article on george de mohrenschildt in one of the dallas daily newspapers, telling of a trip that he and his new bride were going to take through mexico and central america walking. in other words, they were going to walk from dallas or the mexican-united states border through mexico and through central america. it is my understanding that such a trip was taken, and that george de mohrenschildt has since that time returned to dallas, tex. in fact, i have seen him in dallas, tex., within the past months. i do not know of any relationship between george de mohrenschildt and marina oswald or lee harvey oswald, nor have i ever heard of any. mr. jenner. would you describe george de mohrenschildt physically, his physical appearance, the one you have in mind? mr. mckenzie. the man that i know is a large man, approximately six foot one to three inches. he would probably weigh to maybe pounds. mr. jenner. age? mr. mckenzie. he appears to be between and or or . he has got a dark complexion, and i would say a typically foreign expression or foreign look to him, from the standpoint of being either a russian or of the slavic races. mr. jenner. have you ever spoken with him, to give us your impression of whether he has a foreign inflection in his speech? mr. mckenzie. he does have a foreign inflection in his speech, and i have heard, i do not know this to be true, but i have heard that mr. de mohrenschildt has quite a way with the ladies. mr. jenner. all right, thanks. mr. dulles. thank you very much. mr. jenner. mr. oswald, i have asked you about the nixon and general walker incidents. did you at any time prior to november , , have drawn to your attention any incident of any kind or character of action on the part of your brother lee similar to those which have been raised as to general walker and richard nixon? mr. oswald. no, sir, i have not. mr. jenner. you have seen pictures of, and you have heard about, the rifle which was allegedly employed by the assassin of president kennedy in that assassination? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and you have seen pictures of it? mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. did you at any time prior to november , , ever see the rifle which is alleged to have been employed in the assassination of president kennedy? mr. oswald. i have not. mr. jenner. did you ever see at your home or any place a rifle of that character in the possession of your brother, lee harvey oswald? mr. oswald. no, sir, i have not. mr. jenner. did you ever see any rifle of that character in or about any premises that he might or was occupying or that marina was occupying? mr. oswald. no, sir, i have not. i might further state i never knew him to own but one firearm in his entire life, and that was a . caliber rifle that he purchased from new orleans, la., and on my visit to new orleans, la., in on my discharge from the service, i purchased this from lee for a total of $ . he had given approximately $ for the rifle. it would not fire. and i gave him $ for it, and took it back to fort worth and worked on it and put it into working condition. mr. jenner. did you have any discussion, did any discussion take place between you and lee, or in your presence, other than that which you have testified heretofore up to this moment, of his use of a firearm, be it a pistol or a rifle, during the period from june to, and including, the d of november, ? mr. oswald. no, sir, i had not. mr. jenner. nothing of that character occurred between you or in your presence and his presence during all of that period of time? mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. i might say what they were saying at my home in fort worth, tex., on davenport street during the first week, lee and i were discussing hunting and so forth out at my in-laws' farm, i did produce at that time all weapons in my possession in front of marina and lee. they made marina oswald nervous, and shortly after looking at my weapons, i returned them to their proper place, and that was the only time that i have ever seen him handle a weapon from the time that he returned from russia in until the reports of present-day activities along that line that he handled a weapon. mr. jenner. just to nail down this subject, i take it then that at no time from the time of his return in june of to the united states to and including november , , did you ever see him in the possession of a firearm of any kind or character? mr. oswald. no, sir; i did not. if i may, sir, referring to the hunting trip that we did take at the farm in june of ---- mr. jenner. other than that to which you have already testified? mr. oswald. yes, sir, that is correct, at no time. mr. jenner. and you had that in mind when you answered my question in the negative? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. i was excluding your prior testimony. mr. oswald. yes, sir. thank you. mr. jenner. apart from newspaper photographs, have you ever to your knowledge seen jack ruby on television? mr. oswald. no, sir, i have not. mr. jenner. or a person said to be jack ruby? mr. oswald. no, sir, i have not. mr. mckenzie. use his full name. mr. jenner. jack rubenstein. mr. oswald. no, sir, i have not. mr. jenner. have you ever been in any establishment allegedly operated by him or in which he has an interest, to your knowledge? mr. oswald. would you mind, sir, giving me the names of those establishments? mr. jenner. i will do that from other papers later on, but to your present knowledge, without refreshing or stimulating your recollection, could you give me an answer? mr. oswald. i have not, sir. mr. mckenzie. now would you go on and ask him, or would you prefer to---- mr. jenner. would you mind waiting? i am just taking care of representative ford's questions at the moment. your mother testified that an fbi agent had shown her a picture of some man on the evening of saturday, november , . she testified further that later, after your brother had been killed, she saw a picture of jack ruby or jack rubenstein alias jack ruby in the newspaper, and that she exclaimed in your presence that ruby was the man whose picture had been shown to her on a saturday night, november , , by an agent of the fbi. does that refresh your recollection? mr. oswald. yes, sir, that is correct. mr. jenner. and did that take place? mr. oswald. yes, sir, it did. mr. jenner. would you please testify or tell us of where that took place, who was present and what the circumstances were? mr. oswald. that took place at the inn of the six flags in arlington, tex., during the week of november , , in the presence i believe of two or more secret service agents, and perhaps an arlington police officer in the rooms that were assigned at the inn of the six flags, and i feel like at least one of the secret service agents that was present---- mr. jenner. excuse me, sir, you used the expression "and i feel like". do you mean you are speculating? mr. oswald. i believe, is that a better expression, sir? mr. jenner. go ahead, and then i will ask you on what basis you base that belief. mr. oswald. all right, sir. i believe that the secret service agents, at least one of them was mr. mike howard. mr. jenner. that is your best recollection? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. that is what you mean by believe? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. all right. mr. oswald. i testify it was either two or three secret service agents present, and my best recollection, another secret service agent would be mr. charles i. kunkel, and if my recollection serves me correctly, there was an arlington police officer at the time. it would be either mr. bob parsons or mr. jeff gan. mr. jenner. these were the persons present on this occasion? mr. oswald. i believe this to be. mr. jenner. and what occurred and what was said? mr. oswald. i believe, to my best recollection, mother was in another room and she had received a copy of a newspaper which i cannot identify, that reportedly had a picture of mr. rubenstein or mr. jack ruby, and mother exclaimed to me---- mr. jenner. did she come into the room in which you gentlemen were? mr. oswald. yes, sir, she did. mr. jenner. and she had the newspaper in her possession? mr. oswald. yes, sir, she did. mr. jenner. and she walked among you and said something? mr. oswald. yes, sir, she did. mr. jenner. did she exhibit anything? mr. oswald. yes, sir, she did. mr. jenner. what did she exhibit? mr. oswald. a picture that i could recognize as a picture now of a man known as jack ruby. mr. jenner. that was a picture in the newspaper? mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. all right, proceed. mr. oswald. and she stated to me---- mr. jenner. in the presence of the others? mr. oswald. yes, sir; that on saturday night, november , , that two fbi agents had gone to the executive inn in dallas, to the rooms where mother and marina and baby june lee oswald were staying, and that at this particular time marina was taking a bath or a shower, mother had just completed hers, she was in a robe, she did not open the door fully, that one of the fbi agents produced a picture that she stated was mr. jack ruby, and that was the text of it. mr. dulles. you did not see the picture that was shown by the secret service man? mr. oswald. the fbi man? mr. dulles. the fbi man. mr. oswald. no, sir, i did not. i was not there. mr. jenner. assuming it was shown, it was not exhibited to you. your mother stated that a picture of mr. jack ruby had been exhibited to her by an fbi man. mr. oswald. that a picture that an fbi man---- mr. jenner. on the saturday night, november , . mr. oswald. yes, sir, that the fbi man exhibited a picture, and mother said that she recognized from the newspaper to be mr. jack ruby. mr. jenner. did any of the gentlemen present say anything when your mother made that statement? mr. oswald. i believe they did, sir. mr. jenner. all right. give us your best recollection of what was said, and if you can identify the person, do so, but in any event tell us what was said, if you can identify them only by stating he was a police officer or a secret service man or an fbi agent, then do that. mr. oswald. i believe mr. mike howard of the united states secret service looked at the picture in the newspaper and said something to mother in the line or in the nature of "are you sure" and so forth like that. it was very brief, and she was saying that she was positive. mr. jenner. she responded that she was certain of it? mr. oswald. yes, sir, that she was certain that the photograph shown to her on saturday night, november , , was the man in the picture being identified as mr. jack ruby, the killer of my brother, lee harvey oswald. mr. dulles. did she say anything about what the officer who had shown her this photograph had said to her, or explained why he was showing that picture? mr. oswald. i believe, sir, she did indicate that they wanted to show it to marina for identification, and mother explained to him that she was in the shower and was fixing to go to bed, and they were very tired. mr. jenner. now would you give us please your opinion and judgment as to the stability of your mother? mr. oswald. prior to november , ----correction, prior to november , , i believed her to be a stable average person. however, during the week of november , including the date of november , , through friday of that week, which was november , , due to the happenings and the events that had ensued from the november d afternoon through sunday of november d, it is my opinion that at first that her reactions were quite normal, and to be expected. however, it is my opinion during the latter part of that week, from approximately wednesday, november , , that her reactions to other matters related to the events of november and november , , were abnormal reactions. mr. jenner. did those normal or abnormal reactions continue to the best of your knowledge thereafter? mr. oswald. since i have not seen her, sir, since friday november , , i have talked with her on telephone calls only, i have no opinion on that at this time. mr. jenner. one way or the other? mr. oswald. one way or the other. mr. jenner. whether continued or not continued? mr. oswald. yes. mr. jenner. you have testified that you thought you had an influence on lee's joining the marines. that is an influence of an example rather than a direct influence, that is any direct contact by you suggesting that if he entered the service he should enter the marines? mr. oswald. that would be correct, sir. it would be as an example. mr. jenner. you mentioned a mr. gregory having visited at your home. will you identify him, please? mr. oswald. i believe his given name, sir, is mr. peter gregory, but i am confused a little bit about his son. his son's name is paul gregory, or vice versa. mr. jenner. it is peter. mr. oswald. thank you. mr. peter gregory came to my residence in fort worth, tex. on davenport street. mr. jenner. approximately when, please? mr. oswald. two occasions, the first occasion being approximately the last week in june, . mr. jenner. what was that occasion? mr. oswald. he had come over to see lee and meet marina and talk with them in his native russian language. mr. jenner. was he accompanied by anyone? mr. oswald. not on this first occasion, sir, if my memory serves me correctly. i believe he was by himself. mr. jenner. was anything said in your presence that you understood, having in mind that he spoke russian at least in part of that occasion, as to how he became aware that lee and marina were residing with you temporarily? mr. oswald. we were expecting mr. gregory to come by that night. the preceding or days, i understood from lee, that when he inquired at one of the bureaus of the texas employment agencies in fort worth, that someone that he had talked to about a job had set up an appointment with lee to go see mr. gregory, since lee could speak russian and write the russian language, they thought perhaps mr. gregory might know of some contact that he could place lee with, where lee might obtain a job speaking and writing the russian language. i understood from lee---- mr. jenner. that is the result of discussions in your presence in your home? mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is correct. mr. jenner. by lee and marina? mr. oswald. by lee to me. mr. jenner. lee to you? mr. oswald. yes, sir. and i understood that---- mr. jenner. mr. oswald, if you could, if it is the result of lee having told you, would you please state it in those terms rather than that you understood, because your understanding may be based on hearsay that is not the fact. mr. oswald. lee in our conversation told me that he went to mr. gregory's office on the first occasion to meet mr. gregory. mr. jenner. and that would be before this last week in june when mr. gregory visited your home? mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. dulles. what is mr. gregory's profession, do you happen to know? mr. oswald. he was a consultant geologist. on this first occasion that lee spent or hours talking with mr. gregory, and at the end of this occasion, mr. gregory gave lee a letter to the effect, which i did read---- mr. jenner. did your brother lee exhibit this letter to you? mr. oswald. yes, sir, he did. mr. jenner. have you seen the letter from the time that you read it to the present time? mr. oswald. no, sir, i have not. mr. jenner. and as far as you know the letter doesn't exist. you don't know whether it exists? mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. would you please recite the content of it as you now recall it? mr. oswald. that it stated that lee harvey oswald was competent to speak and write the russian language fluently. that is my general remembrance of this letter. mr. jenner. was it signed? did it have a signature? mr. oswald. yes, sir, it did. mr. jenner. was it on a letterhead? mr. oswald. i believe it was, sir. mr. dulles. was mr. gregory a russian by origin as far as you know? mr. oswald. yes, sir, he was. mr. jenner. did your brother tell you that? mr. oswald. yes, sir, he did. mr. dulles. was he a naturalized american, or don't you know? mr. oswald. this i do not know, sir. but during this conversation, he told me about mr. gregory to the extent that he had come from russia approximately---- mr. dulles. this is your brother now? mr. oswald. yes, sir, talking to me. approximately years prior to that time. mr. jenner. so he had been in this country for approximately years? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. it was not long after that conversation in which your brother lee reported these things to you that mr. gregory visited at your home the last week in june of , is that correct? mr. oswald. yes, sir, approximately the last week in june . mr. dulles. did your brother tell you where he had gotten to know mr. gregory? mr. oswald. yes, sir, he had. mr. jenner. would you please relate that? mr. oswald. through the lady at the texas employment agency. mr. jenner. he had gone to the texas employment agency and had an interview with that lady? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. in charge of the agency? mr. oswald. one of the personnel working within the agency. mr. jenner. did your brother say to you that she had suggested mr. gregory as a possible source? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. with regard to employment? mr. oswald. that she had volunteered to call mr. gregory on his behalf to set up an appointment where lee could go by and see him and talk with him in relation to employment. mr. jenner. did your brother indicate that that was his first acquaintance or knowledge of the fact that a person named peter gregory existed? mr. oswald. yes, sir; he did. mr. jenner. and he said that to you affirmatively? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. in the course of that conversation, did your brother report to you any recommendations by the lady in charge of the agency with respect to his contacting any other persons who were of russian derivation or who could or might speak russian and be of possible assistance to your brother in obtaining employment? mr. oswald. no, sir, he did not. mr. jenner. the conversation was confined to a mr. peter gregory? mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. and have you now given us all you can recall as to that conversation? mr. oswald. yes, sir, i have. mr. jenner. and mr. gregory visited your home the last week in june or at least approximately then? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. he came alone to the best of your recollection? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and it was a visit, intended as a visit with lee and marina primarily? mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. you were present when he came to your home? mr. oswald. yes, sir, i was. mr. jenner. did he exhibit any acquaintance, prior acquaintance with lee or with marina? mr. oswald. he certainly recognized lee. he did not recognize marina. mr. jenner. was he introduced to her? mr. oswald. yes, he was. mr. jenner. on that occasion? mr. oswald. yes, sir, he was. mr. jenner. in your presence? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and it is your impression that he was not acquainted with her prior to that time? mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. or she with him? mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. dulles. could i ask one question here. do you know of any other close friends of lee's? mr. oswald. at that time, sir, i was not aware of any others. mr. dulles. the fords you met later, i believe, did you not? mr. oswald. yes, sir, that is correct. mr. dulles. and are they russian or is one of them russian? mr. oswald. his wife is originally from russia. mr. jenner. how did you discover that, mr. oswald? mr. oswald. that mrs. ford was russian? mr. jenner. yes. mr. oswald. i believe marina told me. mr. jenner. representative ford has asked that that subject be inquired into also, sir. mr. dulles. won't you pursue it then if you wish, in whatever way? mr. jenner. would you relate to us to the best of your recollection the names of lee's friends or associates from his return to this country in june up to and including november , ? mr. oswald. the only ones i was aware of, sir, other than members of the family, was mr. peter gregory and his son, paul gregory. mr. jenner. may i stop you at that moment. you say his son paul gregory. did you come to meet paul gregory as well as peter? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i did. mr. jenner. on some occasion subsequent to this last week in june of ' ? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i did. mr. jenner. had you known that there was a paul gregory at the time peter gregory visited your home in june of ' ? mr. oswald. no, sir. he might possibly have mentioned his son at that time, but i do not recall that he did. mr. jenner. you don't have any specific recollection of it? mr. oswald. no, sir; i do not. mr. jenner. when did you meet paul gregory? mr. oswald. approximately or days later. mr. jenner. under what circumstances? mr. oswald. mr. peter gregory and mr. paul gregory both came to the house. mr. jenner. and this is the second occasion of mr. gregory being in your home, to which you have already alluded? mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. and what was the purpose of their visit at your house on that occasion? mr. oswald. to meet with lee and marina again, and to the best of my remembrance, for his son, paul gregory, who was attending either the university of oklahoma or oklahoma university, or oklahoma state university, at which he was studying the russian language. and i believe at this time he stated he was a junior at the university, and that he wanted to be around others who spoke the russian language, besides his father, to improve his language, or his knowledge of the russian language. mr. jenner. was that stated in your presence? mr. oswald. yes, sir, it was. mr. jenner. in this case, you now identified? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. by paul gregory? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. did he attempt to converse, or converse with lee, and/or with marina in russian on that occasion? mr. oswald. he did with both. mr. jenner. and on both occasions did peter gregory confer or talk with lee and marina or either of them or both of them in russian? mr. oswald. yes, sir, they did. mr. jenner. were you forewarned or did you have notice that the gregorys, paul and peter, were to visit you on the second occasion? mr. oswald. i do not recall, sir. mr. jenner. do you recall any conversation you had with your brother in advance of that visit, or with marina on that subject? mr. oswald. no, sir, i do not recall any. mr. jenner. are those the only two occasions that you ever saw or talked with peter gregory? mr. oswald. no, sir, it was not. mr. jenner. when subsequent to the second visit to your home, the first time subsequent thereto, did you see or speak with peter gregory? mr. oswald. i spoke again with mr. peter gregory on sunday morning, november , . mr. jenner. so it was an occasion subsequent to the death of president kennedy? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. where did that take place? mr. oswald. at howard johnson's restaurant on the turnpike between fort worth and dallas. mr. jenner. how did that come about? mr. oswald. i was to meet mr. gregory and two secret service agents at that establishment, to proceed with them from there to the executive inn at dallas, tex. mr. jenner. who had arranged that rendezvous? mr. oswald. by mutual consent between myself and the secret service agent, mike howard. mr. jenner. mr. howard suggested it? mr. oswald. he suggested this as a point of rendezvous on our way to dallas. mr. dulles. i believe this is described in your diary, is it not? mr. oswald. yes, sir; it is. mr. jenner. did you see or speak with peter gregory--have you seen or spoken with peter gregory at any time subsequent to this occasion? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i have. mr. jenner. now, first--when was that? is it recorded in your diary? mr. oswald. no, sir, i do not believe it is in my diary. mr. jenner. and when did that meeting take place? the one you now have in mind. mr. oswald. on three or four occasions during the week of november , . mr. jenner. in what city or town? mr. oswald. at the inn of the six flags, in arlington, tex. mr. jenner. and was he visiting there? mr. oswald. no, sir; he was there voluntarily to act as an interpreter between the united states secret service and marina n. oswald. mr. jenner. i see. subsequent to that time, have you seen or spoken with peter gregory? mr. oswald. no, sir; i have not. mr. jenner. all right. now, you were seeking to report to us the friends and acquaintances of your brother and your sister-in-law subsequent to their return to the united states in june of . now, who next in addition to paul and peter gregory? mr. oswald. none, sir. mr. jenner. none? mr. oswald. none. mr. jenner. were the fords friends of your brother lee and your sister-in-law marina? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and you became acquainted with them, when for the first time? mr. mckenzie. last tuesday, a week ago this past tuesday, on february , . mr. jenner. you were unacquainted with either of them prior to that time? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. and you have already testified about the paines. and you can recall none other--no other persons? mr. oswald. no, sir. mr. jenner. friend or acquaintance of either marina or of your brother lee harvey oswald? mr. oswald. other than the ones i have described. mr. jenner. all right. mr. dulles. plus, of course, the paines, whom you have already discussed, and others you may have discussed. mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. did you have any knowledge of your brother lee's defection or alleged defection other than that which you read in the newspapers? mr. oswald. no, sir; i had not. mr. jenner. and other--other than there might be a reference to that subject in the correspondence you have produced for us? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. do you have any possible reason to believe that your brother lee harvey oswald knew jack ruby, or jack rubinstein, alias jack ruby? mr. oswald. sir, are you asking for my opinion? mr. jenner. i am asking if you have any knowledge first--anything upon which you can base an opinion. mr. oswald. no, sir, i do not. mr. jenner. that he did or might have had an acquaintance with jack ruby, or jack rubinstein? mr. oswald. no, sir; i do not. mr. jenner. i will ask you the same question as to officer tippit. mr. oswald. no, sir. i do not. mr. dulles. with regard to jack ruby, you hesitated a moment. do you have anything else in your mind about that that you wanted to add or could add? mr. oswald. i just misinterpreted his question as to whether or not he wanted my opinion, rather than any facts that i might have. mr. dulles. well, let's ask for your opinion now. mr. jenner. now, we will go to your opinion. do you have an opinion? mr. oswald. based on the newspaper articles that appeared during the week of november , , at which time two reported employees of mr. jack ruby, a man and a woman, stated to newspaper reporters that they had seen lee harvey oswald in mr. ruby's establishment, known as the carousel club, and also on one occasion either or both of these reported witnesses stated that they had seen mr. ruby speaking to lee harvey oswald. mr. jenner. and it is on the basis of that newspaper report and only that that you voice this opinion? mr. oswald. no, sir. i might further elaborate on my opinion that at various times through various magazine articles and television programs, indicating the route taken supposedly by my brother lee from the place of his boarding house, or apartment, and prior to his capture, was in a direct or approximately a direct line to mr. ruby's apartment. mr. jenner. are you acquainted with the decision which your sister-in-law, marina, reached not to reside with your mother? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i most certainly am. mr. jenner. and did you take part in that decision, or were you present during the course of any event that resulted in her ultimate decision? mr. oswald. i would say that that decision, sir, was percent my decision, and only percent marina n. oswald's decision. mr. jenner. all right. now, as to that event, would you please tell us the course it took, your participation in it, where it occurred, and as much as you now recall about it? mr. oswald. this took place at the inn---- mr. jenner. before you answer--it is not recorded in your diary, is it? mr. mckenzie. the diary would be the best evidence of that. mr. jenner. in order that i don't try to examine over pages---- mr. dulles. i have just read the diary, and i do not recall it. mr. mckenzie. i don't, either. i don't believe it is. mr. jenner. proceed. mr. oswald. this occurred at the inn of the six flags in arlington, tex. mr. jenner. fix the time. mr. oswald. on thursday morning, november , , at which time i talked to mrs. marina n. oswald. mr. jenner. in whose presence, if anyone? mr. oswald. if memory serves me correct, sir, in the presence of mr. jim martin, and perhaps one secret service agent that i cannot recall vividly enough to identify by name. that mr. martin--if i may back up, sir. we did have a secret service agent there. i do recall he was mr. gopadze, who was acting as an interpreter. and i do believe that mr. gopadze acted as an interpreter at the time when we discussed with marina the possibility of her moving to mr. jim martin's home in dallas, tex., as a permanent guest or for as long as she wished to with her children, and i believe at this time she asked my opinion of this, whether or not i thought this was the thing to do, and my advice to her was that it was, and that she was going to abide by my decision that this was the thing to do at that time. mr. jenner. this discussion occurred in the presence of these people you have mentioned? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. included in that discussion, was the alternative of her residing with your mother discussed? mr. oswald. no, sir; it was not, because i did not look to that as an alternative. mr. jenner. do you know whether marina--had there been any discussion prior thereto, to your knowledge, of any possibility or suggestion by anyone that marina undertake residence with your mother? mr. oswald. not to my knowledge, sir, was there any discussion between me and marina or myself and my mother that marina was going to reside in her place. mr. jenner. as a possibility? mr. oswald. not to my knowledge, sir. i might---- mr. jenner. whether the discussion was directly with you or not, was the subject of the possibility--it is always possible--of marina residing with your mother--was it raised during this period of time? did you know of anybody ever suggesting it, or it being considered--apart from whether there was discussion with you directly? mr. oswald. no, sir, to my knowledge i was not aware of any situation such as that. mr. jenner. i forgot now. did you say marina was present during the course of this discussion? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. and did she say anything on the subject through the interpreter? mr. oswald. if i may, sir, go to the preceding day of thursday, november , , to wednesday, november , , at which time i was advised by secret service agent mike howard of the offer of mr. jim martin to take marina and the children into the family, into his family, and raise them as he would his own members of the family. i did not discuss at first with marina this offer. i did discuss with mr. jim martin, prior to discussing with marina n. oswald, this possibility. mr. jenner. this possibility being what possibility? mr. oswald. of marina accepting this offer. mr. jenner. of mr. martin? mr. oswald. of mr. martin's, that is correct. after my discussion with mr. martin on this question-- mr. jenner. in that discussion, were any alternatives discussed? mr. oswald. no, sir, there was not. it was a discussion only about mr. martin's offer to her with me in the presence of two secret service agents at lunch on that day, wednesday, november , . at the end of that discussion. i considered in my own mind for a number of hours, perhaps three or four hours, at which time i spoke to marina n. oswald. mr. jenner. at the six flags? mr. oswald. at the inn of the six flags, in a motel room. mr. jenner. anybody else present? mr. oswald. no, sir. mr. jenner. all right. mr. oswald. they were present in the room, but we were in a separate room. mr. jenner. they didn't take part in the discussion? mr. oswald. that is correct. at which time i pointed out mr. martin to marina oswald, and related to her as best i could at that time his offer to take marina into his home, and the children into his home. mr. jenner. let me interrupt you. you say you pointed out mr. martin to your sister-in-law, marina? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. i take it--am i correct from that that she had not theretofore become acquainted with him? mr. oswald. no, sir, i believe she had, but at that time she had seen so many people come in and out of there, that she did not remember which man was mr. martin. and, at this time, i did point out mr. martin, so that she would know him from then on. mr. jenner. was any question raised about her residing at the home of a person who was a complete stranger to her? and about whom you knew little or nothing? mr. oswald. at this time i was considering this, and i believe this was my attempt to have marina consider this, of moving into a home with a complete strange family. mr. jenner. in other words, you were raising a question in your own mind on the subject? mr. oswald. yes, sir. up to that time of mr. martin's offer, not recalling anybody that i stated it to--i assumed it my full responsibility to have marina and her children move into my home in denton, texas. mr. jenner. had you suggested that to her? mr. oswald. no, sir. mr. jenner. or to anybody else? mr. oswald. no, sir. mr. jenner. had the suggestion been made to you? mr. oswald. no, sir, it had not. mr. dulles. was going back to the paines in the picture at that time? mr. oswald. to some extent, and that was excluded entirely by me, sir. mr. jenner. for what reason? mr. oswald. for my observations of mr. and mrs. paine at the dallas police office, as previously testified. mr. jenner. the antipathy to them that arose, or that you had when you met mr. paine, and mrs. paine that evening? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. did marina say anything to you on the subject, of her desire or possibility of her residing--returning to reside with the paines? mr. oswald. yes, sir, she did. mr. jenner. and what did she say on that subject? mr. oswald. that she thought she could go back up to mr. and mrs. paine and live. mr. jenner. did she indicate that that would be entirely acceptable to her? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. even desirable to her? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and what was your response to that? mr. oswald. i indicated to her that i thought that that was not the thing to do. mr. jenner. did you say that to her? mr. oswald. yes, sir, i did. mr. jenner. affirmatively? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and what did she say in response to that? mr. oswald. i believe, sir, to the best of my memory she wanted to know why i did not want her to return with her children to mr. and mrs. paine. mr. jenner. that is a normal response. what did you say to that? mr. oswald. as best i could i indicated to her i didn't think they were the proper or correct people for her to be associated with. mr. jenner. well, that is a term of conclusion, mr. oswald. would you please tell us--were you more specific than that, or just say, "i don't think they are the proper people"? mr. oswald. no, sir. it is very difficult. mr. jenner. try and reconstruct this conversation as best you can. mr. mckenzie. mr. jenner, he is trying his best to reconstruct the conversation, and i think he has testified to the best of his recollection. mr. dulles. are you tired at all? mr. oswald. no, sir, i am not tired. thank you, sir. mr. mckenzie. let me ask you one question, if i may. mr. jenner. could he answer the question i have just put to him first? mr. mckenzie. surely. mr. oswald. may i, sir, in my own way? mr. dulles. do you object to the question? mr. mckenzie. no, i don't object to it, mr. dulles. i don't think that robert being a layman knows what a conclusion is insofar as the way the question was framed or insofar as the way it was responded to. and i think he is trying to answer your question. mr. jenner. i don't mean to suggest otherwise. but the witness, as always--this is not criticism of this witness--they do tend to speak in terms of conclusions. i am seeking as best you are able to do to reconstruct this event and recite what occurred. mr. dulles. would you restate the question, or rephrase it, whichever you wish to do? mr. jenner. when marina indicated to you her desire to return to the paines and live with the paines, and you responded as you have now testified, that you thought that that would be unwise, and they were not the kind of people with whom she should reside, would you please call on your recollection so as to state, to the extent that you can, exactly what you said to her in that respect? mr. oswald. my recollection of that, sir--i stated to her, because of her limited knowledge of english, that no--perhaps with some hand signals accompanying my "no" that this was not the thing to do. and i perhaps pointed to myself and indicated let me help her on this line--something of that nature, sir. that is the best i can do. mr. jenner. did you indicate to her by sign or by expression or statement that you were suspicious of the paines or that your reaction of that--was that saturday night, did you say? mr. oswald. no, this was a wednesday. mr. jenner. wednesday night--had led you to have some reservations about them? mr. oswald. no, sir. i perhaps attempted to give her some more indication on that. but due to the difficulty at that time of the language barrier, and her limited english, and she, i believe, was agreeable in accepting my explanation, no matter how brief it was--because, at this time, she was certainly looking to me for advice in trying to follow my wishes as best as i could get them over to her. mr. dulles. may i just add for the record that the commission realizes that mr. and mrs. paine were separated or were living separately, and it was probably going back to mrs. paine, although i understand mr. paine from time to time would visit there. mr. oswald. that is my understanding, too, sir. mr. jenner. and was that the understanding at the time you gave marina this advice? mr. oswald. yes, sir; it was. mr. dulles. do you know whether mr. paine stayed there from time to time, or he just visited his wife? i understand they are separated, and not divorced. isn't that correct? mr. jenner. that is my understanding. mr. oswald. that is my understanding, also. and in answer to your question, sir, i became aware of this on saturday night, november , , at the dallas police office. mr. jenner. aware of the separation? mr. oswald. yes, sir. as the paines were about to depart with marina and the children and my mother. and the statement was made by mr. paine that he would--i believe this to be my best recollection--that he would take them out there and return to his apartment, at which time the looks on both my mother's and myself's faces asked the question to mrs. paine, without saying anything, and she said, "well, it is a difficult situation, i will explain it on the way." mr. jenner. and that increased your antipathy? mr. oswald. yes, sir; it did. mr. jenner. and the decision was made, as you have related then, that marina would reside with the martins? mr. oswald. not on wednesday night, sir. on thursday, the ensuing night. mr. jenner. the following day? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and you have told us about that. mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. now, you had occasion to observe, did you not, the treatment of fbi agents of your mother, at least in your presence? their attitude towards her and their treatment of her? mr. oswald. sir, i do not recall any fbi agents in the presence of my mother. mr. jenner. you do not? mr. oswald. if i may, sir--i believe you have reference to the united states secret service agents there. mr. jenner. no. i was going to ask you that. but representative ford has a question which he has limited, however, to the fbi, so i did want to cover that. you have no basis for an opinion, then, as to the treatment of your mother, marguerite, accorded to her by the--by fbi agents? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. you might have an opinion, but you have no--well, i will withdraw that. now, i ask you, likewise, with respect to the secret service agents. mr. oswald. there was some friction with one agent and my mother, whom she seemed to resent very harshly, any time this agent spoke to her. mr. jenner. you used the word "harshly." does that include "unjustly" in your opinion? mr. oswald. no, sir; it would not. mr. jenner. did you share the opinion that the secret service agent you have in mind was treating her harshly? mr. oswald. no, sir; i would not be of that opinion. and the secret service agent in question here is mr. charlie kunkel. mr. jenner. during this period, did you have a good impression of him? mr. oswald. yes, sir, i did. mr. jenner. having in mind all of the circumstances, and the stresses, and his duties, do you have an opinion as to whether he accorded her normal and expected courtesy and proper treatment? mr. oswald. only on one occasion i might have a hesitation to give a positive answer to that, sir. this occurred at the inn of the six flags, in arlington, texas. as mr. kunkel was going out the front door one day--i do not recall the day--i would say this would be approximately wednesday, november , --there was a brief exchange at the doorway between mr. kunkel and my mother, of which i am attempting to recall, at which time my mother stated to him to the best of my remembrance, that "please, sir, don't say anything to me at all." and mr. kunkel's reply was--and he was irritated--that he would not unless he had to, and for her not to please say anything to him. and that was the end of that. mr. jenner. that is the only harshness, if you would call it harshness, that you observed occurring between any secret service agent and your mother? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. your mother has made an assertion before the commission that she believes that the fbi should have interviewed her, and she asserts that the fbi did not interview her. do you have any information on that subject? mr. oswald. are we referring to the period of the week of november , sir? mr. jenner. yes. mr. oswald. may i have your question again, please? (the reporter read the pending question.) mr. oswald. during the week of november , , my mother, mrs. marguerite c. oswald, was not interviewed by fbi agents. i might add nor myself by the fbi agents. and the only person out there, to my knowledge, that was interviewed by the fbi agents was mrs. marina n. oswald. mr. dulles. you had been interviewed, though, at a previous time by fbi agents, had you not? mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is correct. mr. dulles. i think that is indicated in your diary. mr. jenner. i will touch on that subject in due course. but representative boggs' area of questioning is confined to your mother. do you have any--do you know why the fbi did not interview your mother? mr. oswald. the fbi did not arrive at the inn of the six flags in arlington, texas, until, to the best of my memory, wednesday, november , . there is a possibility this might have been tuesday, november th. but i do believe it was wednesday. and their purpose of coming out there at that time, as stated to me by a united states secret service man, mike howard, was to interview marina n. oswald. mr. jenner. and did they do so? mr. oswald. they did, sir. mr. jenner. and did they interview your mother? mr. oswald. no, sir, they did not. mr. jenner. did they interview you? mr. oswald. no, sir, they did not. if i may, sir--in reply to your question whether or not they interviewed mrs. marina n. oswald at that time, they attempted to interview her at that time. mr. jenner. was there an interpreter present? mr. oswald. yes, sir, there was. it was mr. lee gopadze of the united states secret service. mr. jenner. and you emphasize the word "attempt". would you describe the circumstances and what occurred? mr. oswald. when the fbi agents arrived there--i can identify one of them as a mr. brown, even though i know there are two or three mr. browns that i have met in the fbi--i do not know his initials--the other man i cannot remember his name. when the two agents and mr. gopadze came in, marina immediately identified or recognized one of the agents who she had talked to before, and it is my understanding now, at the paines' home in irving, texas. mr. jenner. when? mr. oswald. it is my understanding some time in the early part of , sir. mr. jenner. and did marina state that, or did someone state that in your presence? mr. oswald. this came to my knowledge, sir, after the departure of the fbi agents on this particular day. mr. jenner. through what source? mr. oswald. i believe, sir, through, to the best of my memory--through mr. lee gopadze, who acted as an interpreter. mr. jenner. was marina present when you were afforded that information? mr. oswald. i believe she was, sir. mr. jenner. and did she have an aversion to being interviewed by the fbi agent on this occasion? mr. oswald. yes, sir, she did. mr. jenner. and she expressed that aversion? mr. oswald. yes, sir, she did. mr. jenner. was the reason given in your presence? mr. oswald. that she did not---- mr. jenner. was it--yes or no? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. by whom; mr. gopadze, by interpretation, interpreting marina? mr. oswald. there, again, sir, this was knowledge given to me after their departure. mr. jenner. yes--but through what source did you obtain it? mr. oswald. through mr. gopadze, in the presence of marina oswald. and other secret service agents. mr. jenner. and what did he say as to her aversion? mr. oswald. that marina had recognized this one fbi agent as a man who had come to the paines' home in irving, texas, and perhaps at another location where they might have lived in dallas, or the surrounding territory, and had questioned lee on these occasions. mr. jenner. in the home? mr. oswald. in or outside of the home. i do not know whether it took place on the inside--but within the immediate grounds of the home, at least. mr. dulles. and was this early in ? prior, anyway, to november , , was it not? mr. oswald. yes, sir, that is correct. and that this particular one agent--not the mr. brown i have referred to, but the other gentleman that i do not recall his name--she had an aversion to speaking to him because she was of the opinion that he had harassed lee in his interviews, and my observation of this at this time, at this particular interview, was attempting to start--i would say this was certainly so. his manner was very harsh, sir. mr. jenner. harsh towards marina? mr. oswald. yes, sir, it most certainly was. and by the tone of conversation by marina to mr. gopadze, who was interpreting---- mr. jenner. in your presence? mr. oswald. in my presence. and the tone of the reply between this gentleman and mr. gopadze, and back to marina, it was quite evident there was a harshness there, and that marina did not want to speak to the fbi at that time. and she was refusing to. and they were insisting, sir. and they implied in so many words, as i sat there--if i might state--with secret service agent gary seals, of mobile, ala.--we were opening the first batch of mail that had come to marina and lee's attention, and we were perhaps just four or five feet away from where they were attempting this interview, and it came to my ears that they were implying that if she did not cooperate with the fbi agent there, that this would perhaps--i say, again, i am implying--in so many words, that they would perhaps deport her from the united states and back to russia. i arose and called mr. mike howard of the united states secret service into the back bathroom, and stated this to him. and i also stated that i realized there was some friction here between the united states secret service and the fbi to the extent that i was of the opinion that they did not want the fbi at that time to be aware of the tape recording that had been made of marina n. oswald, that she had been interviewed, in other words, by the united states secret service before the fbi arrived at the location. mr. jenner. you mean that the secret service did not want the fbi to know that they had taped an interview with marina? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. what was his response? mr. oswald. he said, "robert, i cannot tell you what to do." i did ask him if he would go over there to speak to him, and kind of tone it down--if they were going to get anything out of her, they would not get it that way. and he said he would speak to her. approximately, at this time, the telephone rang, and he had to speak on the telephone. i returned to my chair at the table where we were still opening mail, and again for the second time, the same implication was brought out. mr. jenner. by the fbi agents? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. to marina? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. in your presence? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. they spoke english? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. was the interpreter whom you named--was he participating? mr. oswald. yes, sir. it was from the fbi agent, the other gentleman, not named brown, to mr. gopadze, to mrs. oswald, from mrs. oswald back to mr. gopadze to the other gentleman. mr. jenner. proceed. mr. oswald. on the second occurrence of this implication, of the same implication, i arose again, and mr. howard was walking across the room, and i stopped him, and i told him for the second time, or requested for the second time that he please say something to them about that. mr. jenner. did you speak loudly enough to be overheard? mr. oswald. no, sir. i just asked mr. howard to please inform the fbi that she had, to the contrary, been very cooperative from the time she had been out there, up until their arrival. and, again, i referred to mr. howard the reference there of perhaps the friction, or the condition that i assumed, that they did not want the fbi aware of the tape recording at this time. and his reply to me, he said, "robert, do what you want to do. you certainly absolutely are free to say anything you want to say." mr. jenner. and did you? mr. oswald. i certainly did, sir. mr. jenner. what did you say? you went over to the agent? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i went over to mr. brown, the agent i knew, who was sitting at the end of the coffee table--it was a large round coffee table. and i sat there, and i spoke to him without saying so much about--anything about the tape recording. i did say to him--and i was shaking my finger at him, sir, i might say that--that i resented the implications that they were passing on to marina, because of her apparent uncooperative attitude. mr. jenner. supposed, you mean? mr. oswald. yes, sir. and that i knew for a fact that she had been very cooperative and highly cooperative. and i returned to my chair at the table. they attempted for another or minutes to interview marina oswald at that time, at which time mr. brown--he left the immediate area of interviewing there, and came over and started speaking to me. i do not recall what our conversation was. i think perhaps it was on what had transpired out there prior to their arrival. as the other gentlemen arose---- mr. jenner. transpired where, prior to their arrival? mr. oswald. out at the inn of the six flags, prior to the arrival of the fbi agents. and as the other fbi agent arose rather disgustedly to end the attempted interview, he walked to the door, opened the door, and spoke very harshly to mr. brown, who was just kneeling down in front of me--he said, "just cut it off right there, mr. brown." mr. brown indicated he wanted to talk to me some more. he just motioned to him to cut it off right here. mr. brown left and went outside with him. about minutes later mr. brown appeared again, and asked me to come outside, which i did. and then the agent apologized to me. he said he thought i was one of the police officers out there and not robert oswald--he was not aware of who i was. at which time we went into the adjoining set of rooms, in the presence of both agents, and mr. brown asked me if--it was his understanding that marina had been interviewed and had been cooperative prior to their arrival out there, and i said this was so. mr. jenner. was the secret service mentioned as having interviewed her? mr. oswald. no, sir; it was not. mr. jenner. the only expression was that, had she been interviewed. mr. oswald. i believe, sir, that is correct. mr. brown did use the term had she been interviewed. and my reply, i believe, verbatim would be--my answer to that question, sir, is yes. mr. jenner. and the secret service, as the interviewers, had been mentioned? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. by you? mr. oswald. no, sir. mr. jenner. by mr. brown? mr. oswald. implied, sir, by mr. brown. mr. jenner. is that the end of that incident? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. representative ford has a notation here to obtain from you all the details on when you knew that your brother lee wished to return from russia, and you have given us those details, have you not? the information and knowledge came to you through the correspondence which now has been identified and admitted in the record? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. and you had no other source? mr. oswald. no, sir, i did not. mr. jenner. did you have any discussion with your mother with respect to supplying funds--either her doing so or your doing so--to your brother lee when he was in russia? mr. oswald. my mother did write me on one occasion, sir, requesting that---- mr. jenner. this is while he was in russia? mr. oswald. that is correct. i believe at this time she was residing in crowell, texas. mr. jenner. she wrote you a note? mr. oswald. stating that if i wanted to help lee in any way, that i had to go through her to do it to the extent that she was going to handle everything, and that she was demanding--and that was the word she used in the letter--that i do so. mr. jenner. that you do what? mr. oswald. send any funds that i might want to send to lee to her, to forward to lee. this i did not do, sir. mr. jenner. did you respond to that letter? mr. oswald. no, sir, i did not. mr. jenner. can you fix, approximately, when you received that letter? mr. oswald. approximately july or august of , sir. mr. jenner. other than that letter, did you have any--well, in addition to the letter, did you ever have a discussion with your mother on the subject matter of supplying funds for your brother while he was in russia? mr. oswald. no, sir, i did not. mr. jenner. and she had none with you, and none occurred in your presence? mr. oswald. no, sir, she did not. mr. jenner. what part, if any, did you play in assisting, if you did assist, your brother lee in his making of repayments of the funds he had borrowed from the state department? mr. oswald. i did not assist him in any way, sir. mr. dulles. he did not request it? mr. oswald. no, sir; he did not. he wanted to do this on his own. mr. jenner. did you discuss that subject with him? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i did. mr. jenner. and did he so express himself? mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. did you offer to help him? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i did. mr. jenner. and he refused? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. at any time--let us confine it first to the period that your brother resided with you in your home, upon his return from russia--did he express to you any opinion or make any comment on his regard for, or affection for, or lack of affection for, or regard for marina? mr. oswald. no, sir; he did not. mr. jenner. was the subject ever discussed between you during that month that he was at your home? mr. oswald. no, sir; it was not. mr. jenner. was the subject ever discussed at any time thereafter? mr. oswald. no, sir; it was not. mr. jenner. did you have occasion--obviously, you did--to observe the relationship between your brother lee and your sister-in-law marina, in their--as husband and wife? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i did observe that. mr. jenner. and would you please state what you observed in that respect? mr. oswald. i felt on two or three occasions that lee's tone of voice to marina--not understanding what was being said--but by the general tone of voice, that he was being overbearing or forceful. mr. jenner. inconsiderate? mr. oswald. sir? mr. jenner. inconsiderate? mr. oswald. inconsiderate. mr. jenner. of her? mr. oswald. of her--some little thing she might want to do. i say some little thing--something that she was going to do there at the house or something, or was doing--i don't recall any specific incident. mr. dulles. do you recall her reaction? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i do. mr. dulles. what was it? mr. oswald. it was usually silence. mr. jenner. usually what, sir? mr. oswald. silence. mr. jenner. a silence that indicated resentment on her part, or rejection on her part, of comments your brother was making to her? mr. oswald. generally, sir, i formed my opinion by the expression on her face, and her reaction as indicated, that it was not very pleasing to her to be perhaps reprimanded. mr. jenner. in the presence of somebody else? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. tell us, if you will, please, from your observation of your brother and marina, during all of the period of time up to and through thanksgiving of , her attitude towards your brother in the normal course. mr. oswald. i believe, sir, it would be described as just a normal attitude of a wife to a husband. they seemed affectionate--both of them appeared to be--and i believe this still to be so--very affectionate to the baby june lee oswald. mr. jenner. and it is your opinion, based on your observation during this period of time, up to and including august of --thanksgiving day --it is your opinion that they led a reasonably normal married life, having in mind all the problems that were facing them? mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is correct. mr. jenner. did your brother ever discuss with you any incident in which he thought that marina had been guilty of some misconduct--i don't mean sexual misconduct, but did he complain about her conduct? mr. oswald. no, sir; he did not. mr. jenner. any kind or character, at any time? mr. oswald. no, sir; he did not. mr. jenner. was there ever a discussion in your presence by anyone, including your brother and/or your sister-in-law, on the subject of his having physically harmed her? mr. oswald. no, sir; there was not. mr. jenner. the subject was never discussed in your presence? mr. oswald. no, sir; it was not. mr. jenner. by anyone? mr. oswald. no, sir. mr. jenner. did it come to your attention at any time prior to november , , or november , , that your brother had inflicted some physical harm on your sister-in-law? mr. oswald. no, sir; it did not. mr. jenner. did you ever see her when she had darkened eyes, as though a black eye had been inflicted upon her? mr. oswald. no, sir; i did not. mr. jenner. or any other physical injury? mr. oswald. no, sir; i did not. mr. jenner. your mother, in her appearance before the commission, has stated, and implied, at least, that your sister-in-law marina could understand english and could read english--let's confine it to the period up to and including november , . what is your opinion on that subject? mr. oswald. it is my opinion even now, sir, if i may go a little bit further, that her understanding of the english language is less than what it appears to be. she does not understand a considerable amount that she, by her actions, appears to understand. this has come to my attention since her visit to washington. mr. jenner. you mean since she appeared before the commission? mr. oswald. that is correct. she does not grasp enough, and by this i mean, sir, to any extent--perhaps it might be best if i compared that with my experience with my children, approximately a three or four year old--if that much. mr. jenner. in other words, do i fairly state that your testimony, even to the present time, and including all of the period preceding the present time, in your contacts with her, it is your opinion that she has a very limited command of the english language, whether you speak in terms of reading or understanding or speaking? mr. oswald. that is correct. i might further qualify that, sir--that she could perhaps speak more english words than she can read or understand. mr. jenner. and you do not, therefore, share your mother's expressed view and opinion that she understands the english language to a greater extent than, to use the vernacular--than she lets on? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. did your mother mention to you or has your mother mentioned to you at any time any--or asserted any claims on her part, that there were any stolen documents, either stolen from her or stolen from anyone else, that would be relevant to this matter? mr. oswald. no, sir; she has not. mr. dulles. has he spoken to you about the disposition of funds that might have come without a clear address or indication as to for whom they were intended as between herself and marina? mr. oswald. no, sir; she has not. mr. jenner. now, mr. oswald, when your brother returned from russia, was there ever an occasion, to the time of his death, when he discussed with you the subject as to why he had returned from russia? this is, apart from the correspondence. did you ever have a discussion with him on that subject, or he with you, or a discussion that occurred in your presence? mr. oswald. none, sir, that i recall. mr. jenner. none whatsoever? mr. oswald. none. mr. jenner. now, is that likewise true of your sister-in-law? did she ever discuss it in your presence, or with you? mr. oswald. no, sir; at no time has she. mr. jenner. did you ever inquire of either of them on that subject? mr. oswald. no, sir; i do not recall at any time discussing it. mr. jenner. nor were you present at any time when anyone else ever inquired of either of them on that subject, up to and including november , ? mr. oswald. no, sir; i was not. mr. jenner. i take it from previous questions that you have no knowledge of marina ever having had a black eye or being otherwise molested or beaten by your brother, or anyone else. mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. were members of your family together, including marina, to celebrate, to the extent it might have been celebrated, christmas of ? mr. oswald. christmas of , sir? mr. jenner. yes, sir. mr. oswald. i am sorry--i misinterpreted that. christmas of --christmas eve of my wife and i and my children traveled from our home in denton to the martin's residence in dallas, texas, and spent christmas eve, or the biggest part of that day, with marina. mr. jenner. did you remain over to christmas day? mr. oswald. no, sir; we did not. mr. jenner. was your mother present on christmas eve while you were there? mr. oswald. no, sir; she was not. mr. jenner. do you know whether she was invited to attend? mr. oswald. no, sir; she was not. mr. jenner. as far as you know, she didn't know you were attending there on christmas eve, is that correct? mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. was there any discussion that occurred during the time of your visit on christmas eve, , of your mother? was she mentioned? mr. oswald. no, sir; she was not. mr. jenner. do you have an opinion as to whether the secret service kept your sister-in-law marina secluded against her will following november , ? mr. oswald. i have an opinion, sir, that they did not keep her secluded. mr. jenner. then you do not--all right. representative ford is particularly concerned as to how stable a person your mother is, which would be of interest, of course, i must tell you, to the commission, in judging the weight they might give to her testimony. and while i did ask you some questions on that subject this afternoon, would you give us your opinion on that? mr. oswald. i believe, sir, i would refer to my prior testimony on that. mr. jenner. nothing has occurred since that you would seek to elaborate upon that? mr. oswald. perhaps one thing, sir. mr. jenner. all right. mr. oswald. that occurred during the week of december , . it came to my attention from my wife, during the latter part of that week, that my mother said on one occasion, when i talked to her over the phone, a phone call that she had originated from her home in fort worth, texas, while the secret service agents were still present with her, as they were in my home in denton, texas, that she turned around at the end of the conversation and said that i requested that they leave her home. and this, to my knowledge, was the reason why they left my mother's home prior to the time they ever left my home. and, as a matter of fact, some of the agents that were at my mother's home came out to denton to stay at my home. and one of them had conveyed to my wife what was said that night. mr. jenner. and that is an additional factor affecting your opinion as to the stability of your mother? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. which leads you to the view that she, since this tragic event, she is not as stable as she was prior thereto? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. now---- mr. oswald. and i might add, sir--i don't believe i stated this. i, of course, did not request that the agents be removed from my mother's residence. mr. jenner. all right, sir. you have testified to ownership of rifles. mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. and do you still own a rifle? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i do. mr. jenner. did you own and possess a rifle--i will withdraw that. did you ever take a rifle to the irving sports shop in irving, tex.? mr. oswald. no, sir; i did not. mr. jenner. have you ever been in the irving sports shop in irving, tex.? mr. oswald. no, sir; i have not. mr. jenner. did anybody ever take any firearm owned by you or possessed by you and take it to the irving sports shop in irving, tex.? mr. oswald. no, sir; they have not. mr. jenner. may i inquire of you, mr. mckenzie--i have a question here dealing with the nature of marina's contract--if there is still one between robert, marina, and thorne. do we have that contract? mr. mckenzie. yes, it is in evidence and has been given an exhibit number. and i might also state that i have just left mr. rankin's office where i was contacted by long distance telephone from my office in dallas, tex., and had a letter read to me over the telephone that mr. thorne has sent to marina oswald at the home of mr. declan p. ford, in dallas. tex., to the effect that he has had and received a letter from me, but regardless of my letter to him, that she cannot unilaterally cancel his contract, and that his contract is one that is coupled with an interest and that it would be to her best interest to immediately contact him directly in order that certain probate papers may be filed in connection with the death of lee harvey oswald, to establish her community interest under the laws of the state of texas in the estate of lee harvey oswald; and, further that there was some $ , being held for marina oswald in fort worth, tex., subject to the payment of $ by marina n. oswald, and that likewise there were other business contracts needed to be affirmed or discussed with marina oswald by mr. thorne. i might add in that connection that i have instructed my office to have marina oswald bring the letter to my office this afternoon or this evening, have a photostatic copy made of mr. thorne's letter, and i further instructed my office to contact mr. thorne by mail, certified mail, return receipt requested, and requesting in such letter to have mr. thorne contact me directly relative to the representation of marina oswald. and i have directed a copy of that letter to be sent to the grievance committee of the dallas bar association. mr. jenner. i take it there at least was, and there is a dispute about it at the moment, as to whether it is still legally effective, an agreement between, or a contract between marina on the one hand and robert martin and thorne on the other. mr. mckenzie. yes, mr. jenner. and all of those agreements are in the record, and have been produced. and i might also say that marina oswald had placed both messrs. thorne and martin on notice that she has discharged them as her attorney and business agent, respectively, and, further, that i have likewise notified them since mrs. oswald has turned the matter over to me. and, further, for the purpose of the record, i will state that mrs. oswald has paid me the sum of $ , which is not my usual fee, to represent her as a retainer. mr. jenner. and you do represent her? mr. mckenzie. and i do represent her, and do not desire one dime out of any contributions that she may have received by anyone for the benefit of herself or her children, nor would i accept same. mr. jenner. do you have a written contract with her? mr. mckenzie. i have no written contract with her. mr. jenner. do you know whether marina knows or can use or understand any language other than russian, and other than english, to the extent that she is able to use and understand it? mr. oswald. no, sir; i do not. i do know that she knows a little french. mr. jenner. and that is the extent of your information on the subject? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. how do you know that she knows a little french? mr. oswald. during her recent stay at my home in denton, tex.---- mr. jenner. how recent was that? just a few days ago? mr. oswald. within the past days to two weeks--i believe this was brought about, to the best of my recollection, due to a television commercial with a little french involved. i gave my total french vocabulary of parlez vouz français, or something, and she replied to that. and we asked her did she speak french, and she said four or five other words, and she said that was about all of it. mr. jenner. did your brother ever speak to you or raise the subject of his jealousy or possible jealousy concerning marina and any other man or men? mr. oswald. no, sir, he did not. mr. jenner. and did any discussion of that subject or possible subject ever take place in your presence by anybody? mr. oswald. no, sir; it did not. mr. jenner. do you know any of the following members of the russian emigré group? i will omit those you have already identified. george bouhe? mr. oswald. no, sir; i do not. mr. jenner. have you ever heard of that name? mr. oswald. no, sir; i have not. mr. jenner. teofil meller? mr. oswald. no, sir; i do not. mr. jenner. have you ever heard the name before? mr. oswald. no, sir; i have not. mr. jenner. elena hall? mr. oswald. no, sir, i do not. mr. jenner. have you ever heard the name before? mr. oswald. no, sir, i have not. mr. jenner. mrs. frank h. ray? mr. oswald. yes, sir, i have. mr. jenner. have you heard that name or know of it during the lifetime of your brother lee? mr. oswald. no, sir; i did not. mr. jenner. you became acquainted with that name, with that person, subsequent to his death? mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is correct. mr. jenner. are you acquainted with her? mr. oswald. yes, sir, i am. mr. jenner. what were the circumstances, and when? mr. oswald. on february , , i went to mr. and mrs. declan ford's home from denton, tex., on my way to washington, d.c., to visit with marina briefly, and on arrival there mrs. ray--and i feel like this is the same one--was babysitting with the youngest child of lee harvey and marina n. oswald. also, mr. and mrs. declan ford's child and her own child. and i had a cup of coffee and waited on a taxicab. mr. jenner. that is the extent of your acquaintance with her? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. that is the first time you ever saw or met or heard of her? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. to the best of your information, did marina ever tease your brother lee in public? mr. oswald. not to my knowledge, sir. mr. jenner. did she, in your presence, or to your knowledge, through other means ever make fun of his ideas? deprecate his ideas? mr. oswald. no, sir; not to my knowledge. mr. jenner. did she ever, in your presence, ever make any comments with respect to your brother's sexual power? mr. oswald. no, sir; she did not. mr. jenner. was the subject of sex as between your brother and marina ever discussed? mr. oswald. no, sir; it was not. mr. jenner. and do you know whether any remarks of that nature were made by anyone, including marina, to or in the presence of your wife, vada? mr. oswald. no, sir. mr. jenner. has anyone or did anyone during the lifetime of your brother ever discuss or raise the subject with you? mr. oswald. no, sir, they did not. mr. jenner. did you ever during all the period of your brother's lifetime, ever hear any discussion? mr. oswald. no, sir; i did not. mr. jenner. on that subject? mr. oswald. no, sir. mr. jenner. do you record in your memorandum, diary, all of the course of events of november , , in which you took any part? in particular, your visit to the police station on november d. what i am getting at, mr. oswald--if what you have written in your memorandum represents your best and sharpest recollection of the course of events recorded there as of the time you wrote that--that may satisfy the gentleman who wished that inquiry to be made. mr. oswald. referring to the time i arrived at the dallas police station? mr. jenner. yes. mr. oswald. on the night of november , ? mr. jenner. yes, sir. mr. mckenzie. is there anything---- mr. jenner. and any other visits that you made on the d or th. mr. mckenzie. other than what is in your diary, is there anything else you could add to it in the way of expanding on what is in your diary? mr. chairman, also in the interests of a chronological and connected record, having in mind the context of the record when it is read, may i suggest that the memorandum diary which we have identified and admitted in evidence, be set forth in full in the transcript? mr. dulles. i think it would be useful to do that. mr. jenner. i think this would be a good point to do that. i will ask mr. oswald a few things. have you recorded in your notebook how the assassination of the president first came to your attention, where you were, where you proceeded from that point on, and what occurred with respect to the subject matter really from minute to minute or hour to hour throughout the course of the day? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i have. mr. jenner. and all of your conversations and your contacts with anyone during the course of the day having relation to the subject matter of the assassination of president kennedy on that day? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i believe i do. mr. jenner. and the subsequent arrest of your brother and your visit to the city jail? mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is correct. mr. jenner. and is that likewise true--that is a detailed recording of the course of events as you participated in them on the d and th of november? mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is correct. mr. jenner. now, mr. mckenzie has kindly asked a question that i would wish also to join in and put to you. having glanced through the memorandum again, or read it--is there anything you wish to add to any of the recordings that you have made in your notebook? mr. oswald. well---- mr. jenner. that is that you might have been stimulated during the course of the questioning yesterday and today to recall, that you did not recall at the time you made those entries? mr. oswald. no, sir--not to the entries or material that is already in here. of course this is not complete to the extent it is my intention to complete at least as fully as i possibly can the entire week out at the inn of the six flags--and possibly other events that has occurred to me since that time that would be more in the nature of a personal nature than anything that perhaps the commission would be interested in. however, i might say that any time that i do complete this, i would certainly turn it over to the commission, if they or my attorney deemed it necessary. mr. jenner. if you elaborate further on your memorandum, as i understand, you will supply the commission with a copy, and with your willingness also to exhibit the original of what you add to it? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. mckenzie. yes, sir, we shall. mr. jenner. mr. chairman, you have read the memorandum. it does purport to state in some detail and accuracy the course of events of the d, d, and th, and during that week. was there anything in the course of your reading that memorandum that might have led you to pose any further questions of the witness? mr. dulles. no, i think not at this time. i would have to go over it again and i will do that. but, at this time--it seemed to me, as i read it, to cover the area you have indicated. i, of course, cannot myself judge the completeness of it. but it seems to cover the points that i would have questioned the witness on if i had not had the diary available. mr. jenner. there is this feature. mr. liebeler and i have not examined the memorandum in depth with a view as to whether any thing said in it would stimulate us to ask further questions. i read it last night, but not with a view in mind of asking additional questions. mr. dulles. well, i read it from the same angle. i read it during these proceedings, and, therefore, i was distracted from time to time. i think it is a very helpful memorandum from the point of view of the commission. do you wish to--it has been introduced in evidence. mr. jenner. it is in the record. mr. dulles. but do you wish it put in this record? mr. jenner. yes, i would like to have it recited in full in the record. and as i recall, you agreed, mr. oswald, to dictate--to take the memorandum and dictate it aloud on a tape, and mr. mckenzie will forward the tape to us. mr. oswald. yes, sir; i have so agreed. mr. dulles. and when you do forward it, would you kindly advise us at that time if there is anything on a rereading of this memorandum which you would like to supplement or add which you feel will be essential for the commission to have, or desirable for the commission to have? mr. oswald. i will certainly do so, sir. mr. mckenzie. and, further, mr. dulles, in the event that any of the attorneys representing or working with the commission see fit to be in dallas in the course of the investigation of the commission, with a little notice mr. oswald will be glad to appear and talk with them at any time. mr. dulles. thank you. and it is, of course, possible that we might wish to recall you. i am not at all sure, and i hope that will not be necessary. but we always have to reserve that for the commission. mr. jenner. there may be other witnesses who will say things upon which we would like your testimony. for the period recorded in the memorandum, and the events recorded in the memorandum, the recordings are full and complete, is that correct? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. and if you wish, or should determine to add to it, it will be with respect to matters that have occurred subsequently to those events recorded in the memorandum? mr. oswald. yes, sir, that is correct. mr. mckenzie. with one exception, mr. jenner. in the event there is some recollection or something that is recalled to his mind, he would likewise add that to the memorandum. mr. dulles. i will direct that a photostat of commission's exhibit describing the events of november , , and immediately following days insofar as concerns the witness be incorporated in the record at this point. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification and received in evidence.) mr. jenner. have you spoken to any member of the dutz murret family in new orleans since november , ? mr. oswald. i have not. mr. jenner. what knowledge do you have as to the cause of the split between your sister-in-law, marina, and ruth paine? mr. oswald. the cause of that split, sir---- mr. jenner. what knowledge do you have of the split, first? mr. oswald. full knowledge of the split, sir. mr. jenner. all right. will you tell us about it? what led to it and---- mr. oswald. under my advice to marina oswald i requested that she sever all connections with mr. and mrs. paine. mr. jenner. when did you give that advice and make that request? mr. oswald. at the inn of the six flags. mr. jenner. was this the same occasion about which you have already testified, and which consideration was being given, to whether your sister-in-law marina would reside with the martins rather than with the paines? mr. oswald. this was the first occasion, sir. mr. jenner. i take it then from your present testimony, just answering my present questions, that the discussion went beyond the question whether marina would reside with the paines as distinguished from the martins, and when i say beyond, it went to the question of whether marina would have anything to do with the paines thereafter. am i correct? mr. oswald. not fully, sir. mr. jenner. all right. will you please explain? mr. oswald. to the extent that the question arose whether or not after our first agreement that she would not live with the paines, that question never has been brought up again. the question has come up from mrs. marina oswald. the time i fix this second query or inquiry from her was approximately december or , , at which time we were advised that mrs. paine had written her a letter or letters requesting that she contact mrs. paine. mr. jenner. what was the date? mr. oswald. approximately december or december . mr. jenner. marina advised you that mrs. ruth paine had written her. mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. had written her, marina? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. asking marina to do what? mr. oswald. to contact mrs. paine; that mrs. paine wanted to speak with her. i do not recall any specific reference as to what she had to speak to her about. she just wanted to speak to marina oswald. she did not reply to these letters. she asked me would it be all right in my opinion for her to call her on the phone. i recommended that she did not talk to mrs. paine at all nor answer her letters and to my knowledge this request has been done. mr. mckenzie. to the best of your knowledge, is that right? mr. oswald. to the best of my knowledge she has not contacted mr. or mrs. paine. mr. jenner. she has followed your admonition or advice to have no contact whatever with mrs. paine? mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. or to permit mrs. paine to have any contact with her, marina? mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. mckenzie. may i ask a question right there, please? mr. jenner. yes. mr. mckenzie. mr. oswald, your testimony is from the best of your knowledge, is that correct, insofar as any contact with the paines or mrs. paine is concerned? mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. mckenzie. and if the paines have contacted marina oswald or if marina oswald has contacted the paines, do you or do you not know of any such contact? mr. oswald. i am not aware of any such contact. mr. mckenzie. all right, sir. proceed. mr. jenner. i direct your attention to the month of october, for a moment. were you aware that your sister-in-law marina was living with elena hall at that time? mr. oswald. october, , sir? mr. jenner. yes. mr. oswald. one moment, please. no, sir. i was not aware of that. mr. jenner. were you aware of where your brother lee was living in the month of october, ? mr. oswald. only to the city in which he was living. mr. jenner. and what city was that? mr. oswald. dallas, tex., sir. if i might ask, sir, can you fix the date in october, when marina oswald was reported living with mrs. hall? mr. jenner. no, i can't at the moment. but neither marina nor your brother was residing in fort worth at that time? mr. oswald. no, sir, they were not. mr. jenner. from your previous testimony i gather that you did not know the whereabouts of your brother lee other than that it was, you supposed, somewhere in dallas? mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. if i might make one correction, sir. mr. jenner. all right. mr. oswald. referring to the postcard received from lee oswald post dated october , in dallas, tex., i recall receiving this two days after he had moved from fort worth, tex., so it would be the first part of october of they were residing in fort worth, tex. mr. jenner, all right, with the exception of that. mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. i take it you are not in the habit of retaining personal correspondence you receive from others? mr. oswald. no, sir; i am not. mr. jenner. i think you have explained why you retained the particular correspondence that you produced for us, that it was from your brother while he was in russia. mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. and after he returned you received some correspondence and you retained that as well. mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. did the somewhat abrupt change in the attitude of your brother lee toward the united states come as a surprise to you? mr. oswald. you are referring to the period in ? mr. jenner. i am. mr. oswald. yes, sir; it did. mr. jenner. that is the letters of may and may and those that followed. but that change, and his desire to return to the united states, did come as a surprise to you, is that correct, sir? mr. mckenzie. are you asking about his return to the united states or his going to russia? mr. jenner. no, sir, his return to the united states, his change of attitude. mr. oswald. it was quite a surprise to me that he wished to return to the united states from russia. mr. jenner. was the change in attitude toward the united states as expressed first in the letters of november and november , , and then the series of letters that commenced in the spring of a surprise to you? mr. oswald. no, sir; it was not a surprise to me. mr. jenner. would you explain both of your answers. mr. oswald. there, sir, i felt like in the due course he would certainly change his mind and opinion of the u.s.s.r., and i felt very strongly that after a period of so many months or a year or two that he would change his mind and return to the united states. mr. jenner. now, prior to your brother's leaving russia to return to the united states, that is actually a day or two before, if not the day before they left minsk for moscow, in may of , your brother lee outlined his projected route by return to the united states. he spoke in that letter of leaving from england and arriving in new orleans. mr. oswald. i beg your pardon, sir? mr. jenner. there is a difference in the route actually taken. did you ever discuss with lee why that change in route occurred? are you seeking that may letter? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i am. mr. jenner. it is probably the d of may and that is exhibit . mr. oswald. yes, sir; i have the letter before me. you are referring to the letter of may , ? mr. jenner. well, it would appear from the notation handed to me. is there any discussion in that letter about the route of his return, projected return, to the united states? mr. oswald. yes, sir; there is. mr. jenner. what does it say, please? mr. oswald. "well, we have finally gotten the word from the u.s. embassy and shall leave for moscow tomorrow. we will be to days in moscow and then leave for england where we shall board a ship for america. the transatlantic trip will take another two weeks or so." mr. jenner. now, the fact is that they did go to moscow and then to holland, and boarded a ship at holland, and as you say touched england and then went directly to the united states. did you ever discuss with your brother that change in route? mr. oswald. no, sir; i did not. and i did fail to read further on down where it does refer to, as he put it, "will actually arrive in america probably in new orleans." mr. jenner. he actually arrived in new york city. mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. that subject matter was never discussed by you with him? mr. oswald. no, sir; it was not. mr. jenner. or by him in your presence? mr. oswald. no, sir; it was not. mr. jenner. or by marina? mr. oswald. no, sir. mr. jenner. with you or in your presence? mr. oswald. no, sir; it was not. mr. jenner. have you related, during the course of the day and yesterday, called our attention to all of the correspondence between yourself and your brother from the time of his return to the united states in june of to and through november , ? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i have. mr. jenner. according to our records you and your wife, vada, or either or both of you, had the following contacts with the fbi during the lifetime of your brother lee. i direct your attention first, to the possibility of refreshing your recollection, to the date of april , . were you interviewed by an fbi agent on that day, and would the name fain serve to refresh your recollection on that score? mr. oswald. it certainly does, sir. i cannot recall the date of our interview or our conversation. mr. jenner. this would be in the spring, let us say, of . i have given you the date. does that sound right to you, april , . mr. oswald. it sounds approximately right, sir, because i do recall i just started my employment with the acme brick company in fort worth on the th of april, . i do not believe that it was that close to my date of employment with the acme brick company. i feel like it would have been perhaps or days later. mr. jenner. all right. subject to that, do you recall the interview, is the name familiar to you as being the gentleman who interviewed you? mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is correct. mr. jenner. and what inquiries did mr. fain make of you? what subject matter, first. mr. oswald. he was inquiring as to whether or not i had heard from my brother lee harvey oswald recently, i believe that is the way it was put. mr. jenner. did he at that time inquire of you on the subject matter of your brother's defection? mr. oswald. not to my remembrance, sir. mr. dulles. by subject matter, do you mean reason? mr. jenner. reason or the fact that he had defected or what he might have known about his defection. mr. oswald. no, sir; i do not believe he did. mr. jenner. he didn't discuss that. according to your recollection, there was no discussion of that subject? mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. was the subject of the possibility of your being contacted by any soviet officials discussed? mr. oswald. it was discussed not in the term of soviet officials. in case any---- mr. jenner. any representative. mr. oswald. any communist party member or so forth along that line contacted me, i assured him i would certainly, if necessary, take care of myself or if i had time report it to his attention. mr. jenner. you would report all contacts to the fbi either directly to mr. fain or some other fbi agent or office? mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. and you agreed to do that? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i most certainly did. mr. dulles. have you had any other calls from the fbi officers since that date? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i have. mr. jenner. i think we will get to that. mr. dulles. are they pertinent? mr. jenner. yes, they are and i think i have them listed. was the subject of the possibility of your receiving any request by any such people for any item of personal identification of your brother discussed with mr. fain. mr. oswald. no, sir; i do not recall that it was. mr. jenner. you have no present recollection of that? mr. oswald. no, sir; i do not. mr. jenner. this is not--trying not to be repetitious but the author of this memorandum is highly desirous of inquiring of you as to whether the subject of personal identification of your brother was raised by mr. fain in any connection or in any aspect. mr. dulles. i don't understand that question, what do you mean by personal identification? mr. jenner. some item of personal identification. mr. mckenzie. marks identifying. mr. dulles. wound or anything of that sort? mr. jenner. yes. mr. dulles. physical marks really. mr. jenner. two classifications, physical marks how he could be identified; secondly any items of identification, such as registration cards, things of that nature. but first personal identification in the sense of physical properties. the person of your brother lee. mr. oswald. i believe mr. fain did at that time inquire as to any scars that might appear, that i was aware of on lee's body. the only scar that i was familiar with was the one over one ear, i do not recall which ear it was, where he had a mastoid operation performed at an earlier date. mr. jenner. that is his right ear, was it not? mr. oswald. i still don't know, sir. i don't recall. mr. jenner. i see. in that connection, however, did mr. fain raise with you the subject that if anyone inquired of you as to any items of scars or other possible identification that you would in turn advise the fbi that such an inquiry had been made of you? mr. oswald. that is correct, sir, and i might say it was my further understanding that i did agree if anybody inquired about lee in such a nature that other than perhaps newspaper reporters, who were properly identified to me and i did know, i would inform him or his office of this inquiry. mr. jenner. your present recollection as to aspects of identification was limited, that is the only one you discussed with mr. fain was the fact that your brother had a mastoid operation on one of his ears. mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. and you knew of no other scar or similar identification on his body? mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. now, do you recall being again interviewed by mr. fain on september , ? this would be a couple of months, two or three months after your brother returned--no, he is still in russia. mr. dulles. he is still in russia. mr. jenner. perhaps i may refresh your recollection an interview by mr. fain with you respecting your then current knowledge of your brother lee's activities in russia. mr. oswald. may i inquire, sir, was this a telephone conversation? mr. jenner. all that is reported to me in this memorandum is that mr. fain again interviewed you on september , with respect to your knowledge of your brother lee's activities in russia. mr. oswald. i do believe that he did, sir, and i believe this was over the telephone. mr. jenner. by way of a telephone call? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. you do not recall as of this time or approximately this time any personal interview that is as distinct from interview by telephone? mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. do you recall that during the course of that conversation you advised fbi agent fain that your brother had been critical of the russians. mr. oswald. this was in september , sir? mr. jenner. yes, sir. mr. oswald. yes, sir, i did, sir. mr. jenner. and that you were surprised that the russians would permit such criticism to be conveyed to you by letter? mr. oswald. i do not recall that specific statement but i do not deny it. mr. jenner. it is possible that you made that statement? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. now, the next date is may , . was to your knowledge or by report from your wife, was your wife interviewed by the fbi on that date or approximately that date? mr. oswald. my remembrance on that, sir, is that she was on or around that date, and also by telephone. mr. jenner. did she report both occasions to you? mr. oswald. yes, sir, she did. mr. jenner. all right. would you please recite those, taking them in the order, what she said to you and where and what the circumstances were? mr. oswald. she was at our residence in fort worth, tex., and she acknowledged that mr. fain---- mr. jenner. did she tell you that, sir? mr. oswald. yes. i might add very courteously, inquired---- mr. jenner. that mr. fain was quite courteous in his inquiries of vada? mr. oswald. yes. he inquired over the phone as to whether or not we had recently heard from lee, and was there any indication about how his efforts to return to the united states were progressing from that end. mr. dulles. how did it happen he called upon your wife, rather than you; were you away at that time, away on business or what? mr. oswald. i don't believe i was, sir. i do believe mr. fain was courteous enough perhaps not to call me at my office, and it was of such a nature that he felt like perhaps my wife could certainly answer whether or not we had heard from him recently. mr. dulles. i see. mr jenner. did she report to you as to whether any understanding had been made by her, that she or you or both of you would advise the fbi as soon as you had information as to when he might return to the united states? mr. oswald. no, sir, i do not recall that. mr. jenner. you don't recall her reporting that to you? mr. oswald. no, sir, i do not. mr. jenner. you had already agreed with mr. fain back in september, , to keep him advised of the comings and goings of your brother in any event, did you not? mr. oswald. yes, sir, i do not believe it was my intentions, nor do i believe i conveyed it to mr. fain at that time, that i would, as soon as i did have notice that when, or approximately when, he was going to arrive, that i would notify them. this was certainly not my intention then. it perhaps didn't even occur to me at that time. mr. jenner. did you say anything to mrs. oswald, mrs. vada oswald, when she stated she had agreed to keep the fbi advised, or to advise the fbi when you and she or either of you was further notified as to the time, if any, of your brother lee's return to the united states? mr. oswald. no, sir, my wife did not advise me that she made any type of statement to mr. fain of that effect. so, i certainly did not advise her to what we would do or convey to the fbi when we did have knowledge of it. mr. jenner. to the best of your recollection then there was no discussion on that particular phase of your brother's presence in russia on the occasion you are now testifying about? mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. now, you adverted to two occasions when the fbi interviewed your wife. was the second one june , , or thereabouts? in other words, approximately five weeks later? mr. oswald. the date was june , , sir? mr. jenner. yes, sir. mr. oswald. i believe that would be correct, sir, or approximately correct. mr. jenner. did you have a conversation with mrs. vada oswald on that subject and did she make a report to you of any kind? mr. oswald. yes, sir, i believe this is the occasion that either mr. fain or some other agent called the house in fort worth, tex., and requested my wife to pass on to lee harvey oswald that they would like to see him at their office in fort worth, tex., for an interview. this is the only other time my wife ever conveyed to me that the fbi had called the home and spoke to her, nothing else was said about it. mr. dulles. this was about a month after his return, wasn't it? mr. oswald. approximately weeks. mr. jenner. was there any discussion on this particular occasion between you and your wife on the subject of her not advising the fbi of your brother's arrival in the united states? mr. oswald. no, sir, there was not. mr. jenner. no discussion on that subject at all? mr. oswald. no, sir, not at all. mr. jenner. did she report to you that she had stated to mr. fain that your brother lee and his wife marina and their child had come to fort worth and were living with you and with her? mr. oswald. no, sir; she did not state that to me. mr. jenner. would you give again the full conversation? mr. oswald. on that date of june , ? mr. jenner. yes, between yourself and your wife vada. mr. mckenzie. to the best of your recollection. mr. jenner. yes. mr. oswald. to the best of my recollection, the full text of my conversation with my wife was that mr. fain or some other member of the fbi bureau in fort worth, tex., had called and spoke to her and requested that she pass on to lee harvey oswald that they would like to speak to him at their office in fort worth, tex. i would not say this was part of the conversation, i would assume at that time, as i would assume now, that perhaps he asked her was lee and his family there. if you know my wife, she didn't lie to mr. fain or any other fbi agent, and she said he was, and perhaps this prompted the request. i might say this, sir. if they did not know that lee harvey oswald had returned in june, until june , , somebody was asleep on the job. mr. jenner. i would perhaps be inclined to agree with that, sir. but as far as your conversation with your wife vada is concerned, she said nothing that she had advised the fbi that--she had discussed with mr. fain the fact that she had not advised the fbi of your brother lee's return. mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. now, do you recall an interview with the fbi, or they with you, on august , or thereabouts in fort worth? mr. oswald. yes, sir, and i recall that this was by telephone at the general office of the acme brick company and outside of my office as i was leaving the office to go to lunch that day. the telephone call came through and i took it in another office and spoke to mr. fain briefly. he inquired---- mr. jenner. he identified himself as mr. fain? mr. oswald. yes, sir, that is correct. mr. jenner. had you become acquainted with his telephone voice at least by that time? mr. oswald. yes, i had. mr. jenner. and that voice was the voice that you identified at that time as that of mr. fain? mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. all right. what did he say and what did you say? mr. oswald. he inquired as to where lee was living at at that time and to the best of my recollection my reply to him was that i did not know the house number. i knew the street not by name but by locale and i gave him this location. mr. jenner. would you please tell me what you said to him? mr. oswald. that to the best of my recollection, that this duplex was located across the street from the side of montgomery ward located on west th street in fort worth, tex., approximately three or four blocks from west th street. mr. mckenzie. mr. chairman, you have greatly inconvenienced yourself this evening and accommodated both myself and mr. oswald for which we thank you. however, it is now or minutes of o'clock in the evening, and mr. oswald has been testifying here for, to the best way i can---- mr. dulles. it will be hours pretty soon, hours. mr. mckenzie. approximately hours and by the same token mr. jenner has been questioning him for a like period of time, with the exception of the few questions you have asked and the few questions i have asked, and i submit maybe we should start again in the morning. and i likewise say that he is perfectly willing to go forward but i do know that you have plans and if we can meet---- mr. dulles. we will have to do it tomorrow. mr. mckenzie. we can be here at : , if it will suit the commission's---- (discussion off the record.) mr. dulles. : tomorrow morning. and we will adjourn at o'clock, come hell or high water. (whereupon, at : p.m., the president's commission recessed.) _saturday, february , _ testimony of robert edward lee oswald resumed the president's commission met at a.m. on february , , at maryland avenue ne., washington, d.c. present was allen w. dulles, member. also present were albert jenner, assistant counsel; and william mckenzie, attorney for robert edward lee oswald. mr. dulles. the commission will come to order. we will continue the hearing of mr. robert oswald. mr. jenner. thank you, sir. have you now recited for us all of the occasions on which any agent of the fbi called or visited with you prior to november , ? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i have. mr. dulles. and your answer would include any other government investigatory bodies, would it? i mean you didn't have the secret service at this time? mr. mckenzie. in answer to your question, mr. jenner, and to mr. dulles' further question, robert has told me there was one other agency that he does recall at this time. mr. jenner. why don't we have him recite it, and then see if it is pertinent. or, may i suggest, mr. chairman, we might go off the record and see what it was. mr. mckenzie. it was immigration and naturalization. mr. jenner. fix the date, please. excuse me. there was one other government agency that interviewed you? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. would you give the time, please? mr. oswald. to the best of my recollection, this was approximately january or february of , at my residence in fort worth, tex., approximately o'clock or : p.m. the gentleman had called my home from dallas, tex. mr. jenner. had he called you? mr. oswald. no, sir; he had called my home, and my wife had talked to him, and he asked if it was satisfactory if he came over to ask us some questions and some background information in regard to lee harvey oswald. mr. jenner. was this a week day or a sunday? mr. oswald. this was a week day, sir. my wife---- mr. jenner. how did you become informed of this? mr. oswald. my wife called me at my office, sir. and she advised the gentleman on the phone unless i said to the contrary it was certainly satisfactory for him to come that night, which he did, at approximately or : p.m. mr. jenner. and you were there? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i was there, and my wife was present. mr. jenner. did he give you his name, and do you recall what the name was? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i am sure he did give his name, but i do not recall what his name was. it was a rather brief meeting and conversation that we had, and it was with regards to the possibility or inquiry into the possibility of having lee's wife, mrs. marina n. oswald, brought to this country, with lee harvey oswald. mr. jenner. as best as you can, would you reconstruct the conversation? mr. oswald. this gentleman did take notes or perhaps he did have a form outlining various questions that he needed answers to. i do not recall any specific questions. however, i did state to him, after three or four questions, in regards to lee harvey oswald being in the soviet union, and quite surprised, i do recall, myself that he was not aware of the reasons why--or the reported reasons why lee had gone to the soviet union. and i suggested to the gentleman at that time that he perhaps contact the fbi and i specifically mentioned mr. fain by name--he said he was acquainted with mr. fain of the fbi bureau, and that he would get the background information from mr. fain in regards to lee harvey oswald. i believe, sir, to the best of my remembrance that he stated at that time he was not aware of the situation, and he thought this was just an "ordinary" case of bringing an immigrant in from the soviet union to the united states. mr. jenner. and when he said that, what person did you have in mind? mr. oswald. marina n. oswald. mr. jenner. that is the person to whom you thought he was referring, was marina? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. dulles. and this was after, as i recall, your correspondence showed that they were planning to come back, was it not? mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. could you give us a little more of your recollection as to the thrust of his inquiries, the subject matter of his inquiries? mr. oswald. i believe, sir, the best of my recollection on that would be directed to us at that time about marina n. oswald. mr. jenner. of what nature--her age? mr. oswald. i do not recall any specific questions, sir. mr. dulles. did they inquire about the marriage? that would be one of the things they would inquire about. because it would be the marriage to an american that would give her the preference. i was wondering if that might have been the subject of the inquiry--whether you had evidence that she was married to your brother. mr. oswald. no, sir; i do not recall that specific question, but perhaps this ground was covered. it was just a general background on marina n. oswald. mr. jenner. but it did relate to marina n. oswald? you recall that much? mr. oswald. yes, sir; it did. mr. jenner. and the questions were directed toward her and about her specifically? mr. oswald. more so than lee harvey oswald. some questions were addressed to me by the gentleman in relation to my brother, lee harvey oswald. mr. jenner. and the inquiries of the agent--he inquired of you as to whether you were the brother of lee harvey oswald, did he? mr. oswald. i am sure he did, sir. mr. jenner. i am just trying to reconstruct the scene for you. mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and whether your brother lee harvey oswald was then in russia, and had been in russia? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. whether he was married, and married to marina? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and was he familiar with marina's name? mr. oswald. yes, sir; he was. i might further add, sir, if i may, that the gentleman advised me he assumed that lee was employed by the government in some capacity in russia, and not having any background or apparent background of lee's reported reasons for going to russia. mr. jenner. and did you make any response to that, when his conversation was such as to indicate that he was not fully advised of the circumstances under which your brother had entered and remained in russia? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i did--to the extent as i have already testified. i believe perhaps at this point, if not this exact point, i referred him to the fbi bureau and mr. fain. mr. jenner. did he ask you--did he inquire whether you had received correspondence from your brother, or the extent to which you had been in touch with each other? mr. oswald. not that i recall, sir. mr. jenner. these are horribly leading questions--but i take it then his inquiries were largely directed toward, as a representative of the immigration and naturalization service, obtaining information as to marina, whom he understood to be the wife of your brother, who, in turn, was about to return to the united states with marina, then a citizen of russia? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. how long did this interview last? mr. oswald. approximately minutes, sir. mr. jenner. and your mind's eye is that he had a form, or he had some set questions which he was asking from a sheet of paper? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i do. mr. jenner. rather than the typical fbi or secret service inquiry, in which the questions range, as mine have, for example, largely dependent upon what your answers to the previous questions were? mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. i believe the gentleman did have some type of set form as to questions he was referring to when he spoke to me. mr. jenner. did he go into your family background, your own age, your occupation, and that sort of thing? mr. oswald. i believe, sir; he just went into my background, as to the extent of my relation to lee harvey and marina n. oswald at that particular time. mr. jenner. would you describe this gentleman, please--his physical appearance? mr. mckenzie. if you recall. mr. jenner. yes, of course. mr. oswald. to the best of my remembrance, i would describe this man to be average build, rather short, approximately -foot or -foot , perhaps in his middle forties or early fifties. i do recall, sir; if i might further add, as the gentleman was leaving the house that night, i requested of him if it was possible for him to notify me when and if marina's visa would be accepted or not, and he replied to me at that time that he could not do that. and i replied back to him that i guess i would know about it from the extent that if she arrived over here, it was approved. mr. jenner. have you now exhausted your recollection of this particular incident? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i have. mr. dulles. could i ask a question there? do you recall that at any time the state department was in touch with you over this general period--that is, the period of your brother's stay in the soviet union, or his prospective return here? mr. oswald. no, sir; at no time was i aware of any member of the state department being in contact with me. and i might further add that at this particular time, after the immigration and naturalization agent was there, including my prior testimony as to the contacts with the fbi bureau, these were the only times prior to his arrival i was in contact with any government agency. mr. jenner. any agency of the government of the united states? mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is correct. mr. jenner. now, were you consciously in contact during any of that period up to november , , with any agent or agency of any other government? mr. oswald. no, sir; i was not. and i might further add that no one else other than perhaps my close friends inquired as to my contact with lee harvey oswald during that period. mr. jenner. all right. you have related to us an incident of your brother being interviewed by the fbi, and he reporting back to you either that evening or that same day of that interview. that is the one in which your brother reported to you that inquiry had been made of him as to whether he was an agent of any agency of the united states, and you responded--i have forgotten now just how you phrased it. mr. oswald. "well, don't you know, sir?" mr. jenner. now, in addition to that particular occasion, were there any instances in which you were directly advised or advised by your brother or by mrs. vada oswald of any other interviews by any agent of the united states government with your brother, after his return from russia? mr. oswald. i believe, sir, to the best of my remembrance on that question, that i was advised by lee harvey oswald, after he and his wife took up residence on mercedes street in fort worth, that the fbi had contacted him and held an interview with lee harvey oswald in their car in front of their apartment on mercedes street. mr. jenner. when you say in their car, you mean the automobile of the agents? mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. and was that approximately the middle of october--i mean the middle of august? mr. oswald. yes, sir; it would have been approximately the middle of august . mr. jenner. your brother reported that to you, did he? mr. oswald. yes, sir; he did. mr. jenner. is that the first information you had about it--that is, did it come through your brother initially to you? mr. oswald. no, sir; i had indication from mr. fain, when he called me at my office, inquiring as to where lee was residing at that time, that they did want to speak to him. mr. jenner. i see. and i take it, then, that mr. fain had called you at your office, as you testified yesterday, shortly before this interview took place with your brother. mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. did you inquire of your brother about it, or did he volunteer it? mr. oswald. he volunteered the information, sir. mr. jenner. i have forgotten now. have i had you recite what your brother said to you about it? mr. oswald. no, sir; you have not. mr. jenner. would you please state that--and who was present when your brother related this to you? mr. oswald. to the best of my remembrance of that occasion, sir, it was in the presence of my brother, myself, and his wife, marina n. oswald. mr. jenner. in their home, or your home? mr. oswald. in their home, on mercedes street--either the afternoon or the following day of the interview. and he just simply stated to me, sir, that the fbi had been by and had held an interview with him in their car in the front of their residence on mercedes street. mr. jenner. did he tell you anything about the thrust of the interview, anything that had been said, what the inquiries were of him? mr. oswald. no, sir; i do not recall any. mr. jenner. your recollection now serves you only to say that he did report to you that fbi agents had interviewed him in their automobile, in front of or near their apartment on mercedes street-- mercedes street--is that correct? mr. oswald. i do not recall the number of the house, sir. i do recall it was at the mercedes street address, and i have exhausted my recollection of that particular occasion. mr. jenner. do you recall what you said or what others said--that is, others in addition to your brother--on that particular occasion, when he recited the event? mr. oswald. no, sir; i do not recall any further comment about that particular event at that time. mr. dulles. there is one question i would like to ask at this point. this is slightly on a different subject. mrs. marina oswald, as i recall--and i don't know whether you were present, mr. jenner, when she gave this testimony or not. mr. jenner. i think not. mr. dulles. she stated that in the later period she had the impression that your brother was trying to break off a little with, i might call it, the russian group in fort worth that he had had a good many contacts with. that is when they called, he did not seem to welcome their coming, and they slowly stopped coming. i think this was to the house on mercedes street. do you have any recollection of that? did you know about that? did marina speak to you about that? or did your brother speak to you about that? mr. jenner. or did you have any impressions about it? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i do have impressions about that--at that particular time when they were residing in fort worth. if i may, sir---- mr. dulles. it was fort worth when this took place? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. dulles. mercedes street is in fort worth? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. would you sort of start at the beginning, and give us what impressions you had, as to how this impressed you, as an incident? mr. oswald. all right, sir. during the period that they resided at the mercedes street address, i was of the opinion--and i was present on one occasion at the mercedes street address---- mr. jenner. could you fix the time? mr. oswald. this would be approximately the latter part of august , sir. mr. jenner. it would be subsequent to this interview by the fbi agents with your brother in the automobile near their home? mr. oswald. to the best of my recollection, i would say that would be so, sir. mr. jenner. all right. mr. oswald. that mr. paul gregory had retained marina in the capacity of teaching him the russian language, and he in return was paying her a certain amount per hour for this instruction. mr. jenner. and how did you come by that information? mr. oswald. on the night that i was present at the home or apartment on mercedes street, i was informed---- mr. jenner. by whom? mr. oswald. by lee harvey oswald--that mr. paul gregory was due to arrive at any moment, to take him and marina driving around fort worth, tex. during this period marina and mr. paul gregory would converse in the russian language, and that she would be paid by the hour for her time, and for the instruction. mr. jenner. who was present on this occasion when your brother told you that, in addition to yourself and your brother? mr. oswald. marina n. oswald. mr. jenner. and your brother spoke in english, did he? mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. to the best of your knowledge and present recollection, did marina understand what he was relating to you? did he make it apparent to her? mr. oswald. i believe, sir, to the best of my recollection that generally she was apparent to what he was saying to me. i do feel like she certainly recognized the name of mr. paul gregory and was able more or less to fill in the conversation to the extent that she understood that mr. gregory was due to arrive, and that they were to converse in the russian language for his benefit. and it was my understanding at this time, either implied or stated to me, by lee harvey oswald, that this was not the first occasion that this had occurred. mr. jenner. i see. mr. mckenzie. mr. dulles, if i may interrupt at this time--you have brought here with you this morning a copy of the new york times which you have very kindly allowed me to look at and read. on page of the new york times, saturday edition, february , , there is an article there---- mr. dulles. i may add i have not read the paper yet. mr. mckenzie. there is an article here by mr. anthony lewis, correspondent for the new york times, dateline washington, february , which i would like to put into the record. now, the reason i would like to put it into the record---- mr. jenner. mr. mckenzie, would it suit your convenience if we finished this incident, and then you put this matter into the record, or is it pertinent to this particular point? mr. mckenzie. it is not pertinent to this line of inquiry, mr. jenner. but with the chairman's permission, i would like to insert it into the record, or make a statement into the record at this time. mr. dulles. it is all right--go ahead. mr. mckenzie. it is apparent to me, from a reading of this article, that someone other than robert oswald or myself has made a statement to the press. we have consistently stated to the press that mr. oswald was under oath before this commission, and that being under oath before this commission he was in no position, or that it would not be an appropriate time for any statement to be given to the press. and yet in this article, mr. lewis has given some direct quotes, or what appear to be direct quotes, of mr. oswald's testimony before this commission. mr. dulles. i wonder if it would be agreeable to you, if we go off the record at this point. mr. mckenzie. if i may still be on the record for one more second, please, sir--i would like to further and say that some of the text of this article gives testimony in the same light, and nearly in the same manner in which robert oswald has testified. now, if there is a leak to the press, or if anyone on the commission or its staff are giving articles to the press, then i want to know as soon as possible, because if that is so we will go down and have a press interview, and i just don't think it is fair to the witness, nor do i think it is fair to the commission. and if you feel that i am right in my statement here, then i would like to have this article inserted in the record. now, if you would like to go off the record, that is fine with me, sir. mr. dulles. just for a moment. (discussion off the record.) mr. dulles. back on the record. mr. mckenzie. mr. dulles, off the record we have discussed the new york times article, and i have stated to you--the new york times article referred to as the one by anthony lewis, of february , . mr. dulles. i think it is of february , but reported in the times on february . mr. mckenzie. that is correct. i have stated to you that at no time to my knowledge has robert oswald given any statements to the press as set forth in this article, particularly his testimony to the commission. and, further, that both robert oswald and his counsel have stated to the press that while mr. oswald was under oath to the commission, and subject to recall by the commission, that he would not issue any press statements, because i have likened it to a grand jury investigation, and i have stated this to the press. and i did not deem it appropriate at any time for him to make any statements to the press of his testimony before this commission. and yet there are--i find in this article by mr. lewis, dateline february , certain excerpts from his testimony before the commission--and it can come from only one place, and that is from someone on the commission's staff. mr. dulles. well, i may wish to make an exception to that--having been in washington a long time, and knowing that things have a way of leaking, and many ways of leaking. mr. mckenzie. well, sir, i will state to you--maybe my statement is too strong. but i will state to you, sir, that at no time has mr. oswald or myself made any statements giving testimony to the press which has previously been given to the commission. mr. dulles. i am very glad to hear that statement. mr. mckenzie. and, further---- mr. jenner. i have every confidence in that. as a matter of fact, i have been with both of you most of the time. mr. mckenzie. and, further, if it has been given to the press by someone other than the people in this room, and i feel confident it was not given to the press by anyone--because i have either been with you, mr. dulles, or mr. jenner. but i feel that the commission should investigate this to see if there is a leak, and, if so, i feel that it is reprehensible. mr. dulles. i will present your statement to the chief justice. do you wish to identify the statements to which you take exception? mr. mckenzie. i will identify it this way. let me just identify it this way: "his brother told the commission that lee seemed changed when he returned to the united states. he had lost a lot of hair, which robert said was unusual for their family, and he appeared to be under a strain." "robert testified that the last time he saw lee before the assassination was at thanksgiving in ." now, i offer that, sir, for the record from the standpoint that that is testimony given to the commission and quoted in this article. there are other items or matters in the article which mr. lewis could have received from public records, or from newspaper morgues, or newspaper records. however, the two quotes that i have given from this article are direct testimony from the commission, from the commission's records. mr. jenner. i think in fairness, mr. mckenzie, they are with respect to subject matter. i don't think they are direct quotes of the witness' testimony. mr. mckenzie. but you will agree with me, won't you, mr. jenner, that they are in respect to subject matter, matters testified to before the commission by robert oswald? mr. jenner. the subject matter of the hair, yes. i recall specifically asking mr. oswald about that yesterday. we had not inquired of the witness about that prior to that time. mr. mckenzie. i might further add, sir, that i am familiar with the statements made to the press by you, mr. dulles. mr. dulles. i think you heard both of them that i made yesterday before the morning, afternoon and evening sessions. mr. mckenzie. yes, sir; i did. and i would be remiss if i did not add that i know that you--when you have made statements to the press, you have been most fair, both to the press, to the commission, and also the witness. and i am in full accord with the statements that have been made to the press by yourself, by mr. rankin, and by the chief justice. i might also add, mr. dulles, if i may, sir, that the only reason i bring this up is that i do feel that mr. robert oswald is under strict--the strictest of oaths to give his testimony only to the commission, in the interests of finding out the truth, and that he has not given any statements to the press nor have i. mr. dulles. on that latter point, i would say that i appreciate and respect the position that you have taken in this respect, that in the case of previous witnesses, the commission itself has no authority to, as i understand it, and has not attempted to "muzzle" witnesses that have appeared before it as to what they themselves may say after the hearings. the chief justice has enjoined them during the hearings not to discuss the proceedings. am i correct, mr. jenner? mr. jenner. that is my understanding. mr. mckenzie. and that is exactly the position we are taking, sir. and that is exactly the position that we have taken, and will continue to take at all times while he is under oath to the commission, and until such time as he is released from that oath. mr. dulles. well, i will see that your statement is brought specifically to the attention of the chief justice and mr. rankin. mr. mckenzie. thank you, sir. mr. dulles. shall we proceed, mr. jenner? mr. jenner. yes, thank you, sir. when the discussion of the times article arose, you were in the process, mr. oswald, of relating to us an incident of one evening in the home of your brother, in which--with respect to which paul gregory, the son of peter gregory, was expected to arrive at your brother's home and then to drive about the city of fort worth with marina, she talking to him in russian and he likewise in russian, as part of a course of instruction in conversational russian between marina and paul gregory, who was seeking to improve his command of the russian language. and you had reached the point at which you related a conversation with you in the presence of marina, which you thought she understood and she took sufficient part, in to lead you to believe she did understand it. mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. does that refresh your recollection as to where we were? mr. oswald. yes, sir; it does. mr. dulles. and i would like to add, as i understand it, it was indicated to you by your brother that this was to be on a financial basis--that is, she was in effect giving russian lessons to paul gregory, and would be paid for it. mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. was any amount of money mentioned? it was by the hour, i think you said. mr. oswald. yes, sir; a figure was mentioned. however, i do not recall the exact figure. i could perhaps to the best of my ability and remembrance of the occasion place the figure at over $ an hour. i do not recall any further conversation that i had with marina and lee oswald on that occasion. i did leave their residence before the reported time that mr. gregory was due to arrive. mr. jenner. did anything occur that evening, in the course of that interchange and conversation, that had a bearing upon, or led you to believe or have the impression, that your brother lee was seeking to break off or lessen relations on his part and marina's part with their russian friends? mr. oswald. no, sir; there was not. mr. jenner. all right, proceed. mr. dulles. could i ask one question there? did your brother indicate whether these lessons were being given in his and marina's home, or whether they were to be given at the gregory home? mr. oswald. no, sir. it was implied if not stated to me at that time that the lesson was to be given going around fort worth, tex. mr. jenner. this particular occasion? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. did you get any impression, mr. oswald, as to the course of procedure in that respect for any future occasions, or those that had occurred in the past, because i believe you indicated that your impression was that this was not arising for the first time that evening. mr. oswald. no, sir; i do not recall anything being stated at that time or any other time where these lessons were to be given other than my impression of that one night that it was to be given as they drove around fort worth, tex. mr. jenner. am i correct in my impression of your testimony that your impression in turn was that this relationship had existed at least somewhat before this occasion? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. then would you proceed to the next circumstance or event which led you eventually to the conclusion or impression that your brother was seeking to lessen the relations between themselves, he and marina, and their russian friends? mr. oswald. to the contrary, sir, that was the only time that i recall that any people of russian descent or interested in the russian language was mentioned in my presence, and i base my opinion on that particular incident that they were not at the time seeking to lessen their relationship within this group of people when they did reside at the mercedes street address in fort worth, tex. mr. jenner. i see. i had been under the impression, mr. oswald, from your first immediate response to mr. dulles' question on this subject, that you had stated or at least indicated--i had that impression--that you had noted somewhere along a point of time while they were on mercedes street, some effort on the part of your brother to lessen the intensity at least of the degree of intercourse between themselves, that is he and marina, and their friends of russian derivation. am i correct in that? mr. oswald. i believe you are incorrect in that, sir. i believe i stated to mr. dulles that to the contrary at that particular time they were not attempting to lessen their relations with this group of persons. and i cited the incident of that night as they awaited on the arrival of mr. paul gregory as an example that they were still in contact at least with that member of mr. gregory's family, if not mr. gregory. mr. jenner. i see. mr. dulles. it may well have been that the testimony that we previously had related to a subsequent period. mr. jenner. that may well be. i was not here when marina testified. it does lead me, mr. chairman, however, to make some further inquiries on this subject. mr. dulles. all right. mr. jenner. how old, in your judgment, if you have an impression, was mr. paul gregory? mr. oswald. yes, sir. i would place his age at that time approximately or years of age. mr. jenner. and i believe you testified last evening that you had met paul gregory. mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. did you gain any impression that evening that prior contacts between paul gregory and your brother and sister-in-law in this area had embraced other occasions when they, meaning marina and paul gregory, had driven about the city of fort worth? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i was of that opinion--whether it was stated or implied, at that time. mr. jenner. could you state for us a little more in detail any remark that led to that conclusion? mr. oswald. no, sir; i do not recall any specific remark that was made at that time. but i was, as i am now, of the opinion that there were or had been prior interviews or lessons between marina oswald and lee harvey oswald and mr. paul gregory. mr. jenner. that is prior occasions when this method of conducting a lesson had been pursued--that is, just driving about the city of fort worth? mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is correct. mr. jenner. now, did there occur subsequently any further occasions in which the conducting of lessons by marina with or for paul gregory arose? mr. oswald. not to my knowledge, sir. mr. jenner. up to the time that they had left fort worth, which, as i recall, was the day after thanksgiving, , did there come to your attention, either through your brother or marina or some other source, the undertaking by marina to give or participate in lessons to persons other than paul gregory, the teaching or increasing the facility of use of the russian language on the part of someone else? mr. oswald. no, sir. and if i may, sir, to understand the question fully--you referred to the day after thanksgiving, , as the day that they had left fort worth, tex. they had given up their residence on mercedes street in the early part of october , and moved to dallas, tex., address unknown to me. on the occasion referred to on thanksgiving , it was my understanding that they returned to dallas when they departed from my home in fort worth, tex. mr. jenner. you are absolutely correct. i did misstate your testimony. but up until the time they did leave, were there any further occasions on which you received the impression, at least, that marina had been engaged, either for compensation or voluntarily in teaching conversational russian or increasing the facility or use of the russian language by someone else? mr. oswald. no, sir; i am not acquainted with any other persons that perhaps she had pursued this line of employment with, or volunteered to instruct anybody else in the use of the russian language. mr. jenner. does that exhaust this subject, mr. chairman? mr. dulles. yes. you may proceed. mr. jenner. at any time before marina and lee left fort worth to go to dallas, did you become aware of her, at least from time to time, living with others in the city of fort worth--that is, not living with your brother in their home? mr. oswald. no, sir; i was not aware of that. mr. jenner. mr. oswald; i anticipate that a series of names which i am about to put to you would in large part be strange to you, but one of the other divisions of the investigation staff desires me to inquire whether any of these names are familiar to you. prior to november , , did you or your brother, lee, or any member of the oswald family--that would include your brother john and your mother--as far as you know hear of any of the following persons: mr. chairman, may i withdraw that question and put it to the witness first. did you, at any time prior to november , , know of or hear of any of the following persons: one, george senator? mr. oswald. no, sir; i have not. mr. jenner. and that name is unfamiliar to you? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. ralph paul? mr. oswald. no, sir; i did not. mr. dulles. we will assume that each of those questions the name is also unfamiliar to you. mr. oswald. that is correct. if you would like, may i suggest that you read the entire list and if any of them are familiar to me i would stop you on that occasion. mr. jenner. thank you. andrew armstrong; karen bennett, also sometimes known as carlin; bruce carlin; roy william pike, alias mickey ryan; robert kermit patterson, alias bobby patterson; donald c. stuart; charles arndt; stanley or katch skotnicki; larry crafard; eva grant; joe bonds; joyce lee mcdonald, also known as joy dale. mr. oswald. no, sir; i have not heard of any of those people mentioned by name, nor am i familiar with any of their names. mr. jenner. and as far as you know, none of the members of your family, including your brother lee, and marina, knew of, or were acquainted with any of these people? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. and this likewise would include your wife vada and your mother and your brother john? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. do you know whether or not your brother lee ever visited any of the following night clubs, bars, or taverns or restaurants in the dallas-fort worth area: the bullpen drive-in; the carousel club. mr. oswald. pardon me, mr. jenner. this is prior to november , --is that correct? mr. jenner. it is, sir. mr. oswald. thank you. mr. jenner. i will repeat the list. the bullpen drive-in; the carousel club; the vegas club; the sovereign club. mr. oswald. no, sir; i am not aware at any time that he did enter these establishments. mr. jenner. have you been in any of these establishments? mr. oswald. no, sir; i have not. mr. jenner. this leads me to ask you about your brother's drinking habits, if any. did he take an occasional drink--i mean of intoxicating liquor? mr. oswald. to the best of my remembrance, sir, on that particular point, i have never known him to take a drink of an alcoholic beverage. mr. jenner. and have you been with him on occasion when you have had alcoholic beverage, whereas at the same time he declined to have any, or did not have any? mr. oswald. no, sir; i do not recall any occasion such as that. mr. jenner. were there occasions on which you would have drawn to your attention the fact that your brother was not a drinking man--even a social drinker? that is, were you present when others might have been having a social drink at which your brother either declined or just didn't have one? mr. oswald. no, sir; i do not recall any such incident. mr. jenner. but you do have a firm recollection or opinion, in any event, that your brother was not a drinking man, even a social drinker? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. and am i correct that you did testify a moment ago that there was never an occasion when you saw your brother imbibe an intoxicating liquor? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. what about marina in that respect? mr. oswald. there, again, sir, we are referring to the time prior to november , , is that correct? mr. jenner. well, let's take that first. mr. oswald. no, sir; i have not. nor was i present on any occasion that she did take a drink of any type of alcoholic beverage. mr. jenner. now, i will take the period from the d of november to the present time. mr. oswald. yes, sir, i have been in her presence on a number of occasions where she has taken a drink of an alcoholic beverage. mr. jenner. and has it been just an occasional drink, purely social drinking? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. and---- mr. oswald. if i may qualify one point of that statement, as to being a social drink--during the period that we was at the inn of the six flags in arlington, tex., the baby, rachel oswald, being breast fed, and due to the nature that she was quite upset at that particular time, that she was not eating proper, and that they were having some difficulty--she was having difficulty maintaining the natural milk supply in her own body for the baby, that one six-pack of beer was brought in, and at no time did i see her drink other than one beer at a time or one beer per day to help fortify herself in this production of milk. mr. jenner. did you ever hear any conversation in which your brother participated or marina participated with you or in your presence respecting the subject of his or her or their attendance at any night club, bar, tavern, or restaurant in the dallas-fort worth area, and when i use the word restaurant, i am thinking of a restaurant in which intoxicating liquors or entertainment might be employed. mr. oswald. i am sorry i keep referring to this point again, sir, but this was prior to november , ? mr. jenner. yes, sir. mr. oswald. no, sir; i was not aware of that. mr. jenner. all right. that is, your brother and marina were not in the habit of--you know of no occasion on which they attended bars or restaurants with entertainment which might be described as night clubs and that sort of thing? mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. and i take it that is not your habit, either? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. dulles. to your knowledge, did he have any friends in this circle, the nightclub circle? mr. oswald. not that i was aware of, sir, prior to november , . mr. jenner. do you know of any friends or classmates or associates, either of yourself or your brother lee, who have become nightclub entertainers? and may i say that includes so-called stripteasers or musicians or singers, or masters of ceremony. mr. oswald. if i may refresh my memory to the question, sir, you did include myself in that statement, did you not? mr. jenner. yes, sir. mr. oswald. the only gentleman that i was ever in a remote way acquainted with who has become perhaps what might be determined an entertainer as you have outlined was a boy that attended high school with me in fort worth, tex., and he is now known as, as then--i believe his correct name is mr. van williams. if i might pinpoint the series of programs on television that he appeared in was surfside six, and other western and detective type series programs on television. mr. jenner. do you know whether your brother was acquainted with him? mr. oswald. i would be of the opinion, sir, that he was not acquainted with mr. williams. mr. jenner. now, do you know of any friends, classmates or associates of either yourself or your brother lee who have become waitresses, bartenders, or, to use the vernacular, bouncers? you know what a bouncer is? mr. oswald. yes, sir. to answer your question, sir, i do not know of any that are personally acquainted to myself or that i would be of the opinion that were acquainted with lee harvey oswald. mr. jenner. and the same question as to members or employees of any gun clubs or shooting ranges, rifle ranges. mr. oswald. yes; am acquainted with at least two people who have joined or belonged to a gun club or something of that nature. mr. jenner. would you please identify them, and also state whether or not your brother lee was acquainted with these people. mr. oswald. mr. bill harlan, formerly of the acme brick co., in fort worth, tex., and mr.--i am quite sure that mr. harlan is not acquainted with my brother, lee harvey oswald. the other gentleman is mr. jewel godi, of the acme brick co., in denton, tex., who is not acquainted with my brother lee harvey oswald. mr. jenner. i take it these two gentlemen you have identified are fellow employees of acme brick co.? mr. oswald. or ex-employees that have become my personal friends, sir. mr. jenner. as far as you know--i will withdraw that, because it would be repetitious. what kind of gun clubs--hunting clubs, or gun practice clubs? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. harlan belonged to an archery club in fort worth, tex., that i believe was also part of a gun club. and mr. godi belongs to a denton gun club of the nature of a practice range. mr. jenner. do you know of any possible homosexual tendency or activity of your brother, lee harvey oswald? mr. oswald. no, sir; i do not. mr. jenner. do you have any information as to whether he at any time met with suspected homosexuals or whether he went to the places reputedly frequented by homosexuals? mr. oswald. no, sir; i do not. mr. jenner. what was your brother's attitude toward sex in general? mr. oswald. i do not have an opinion on that, sir. mr. jenner. do you have any opinion whether it was a normal, healthy attitude? mr. oswald. i would say it would be a normal, healthy attitude, sir. mr. jenner. do you have, any--do you know what his attitude was, if he had one and you are acquainted with, toward homosexuality and homosexuals? mr. oswald. no, sir; i am not of any opinion on that particular question. mr. jenner. and this series of questions which i have been asked to put to you, i intended to include his entire lifetime. and were you answering the questions with that in mind? mr. oswald. yes, sir. i would not change my own answers on that basis. mr. jenner. do you know whether or not any of the persons whose names i read to you, that series of names, beginning with george senator, and concluding with joyce lee mcdonald, contacted any member of your family or friends subsequent to november , ? mr. oswald. no, sir; not to my knowledge. mr. jenner. or any employer or fellow employee of yours? mr. oswald. no, sir. not to my knowledge. mr. jenner. and i take it from your previous answer, which was that these names were unfamiliar to you, that they certainly did not contact you--at least you did not know consciously that they contacted you. mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. this is not, i anticipate, fully repetitious, mr. chairman, but an inquiry has been made--i just want to make certain of it. were you at all aware as to whether in october of --aware of the fact, that for a short time marina resided with elena hall? mr. oswald. no, sir; i was not. mr. jenner. and were you aware that there was for a short period of time some argument or fight between your brother and marina which may have played a part in her visiting in the home of elena hall for a short time in october ? mr. oswald. no, sir; i was not. mr. jenner. i take it, sir, this is all completely new to you. you have no information on this subject. mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. you were not aware of anything of this nature at that time? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. mr. mckenzie described at length yesterday mr. george de mohrenschildt. as i recall it, your testimony was that you were unacquainted with this gentleman. mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. did you ever hear either your brother--were you present when either your brother or marina discussed, or may have discussed mr. de mohrenschildt? mr. oswald. no, sir; i have not been. mr. jenner. are you aware of any threat that your brother uttered against or may have uttered against mr. de mohrenschildt? mr. oswald. no, sir; i am not aware of any threat. mr. jenner. you are now aware of the photograph of your brother with the pistol on his hip and holding the rifle and also holding a sheaf of papers, are you not? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i am. mr. jenner. and did you see that photograph by any chance at any time prior to november , ? mr. oswald. no, sir; i have not. or did not. mr. jenner. you were unaware that it had been taken? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. dulles. did you know that your brother had either the gun or the pistol? mr. oswald. no, sir. mr. dulles. or had acquired the gun or pistol? mr. oswald. no, sir; i did not. mr. jenner. did marina, following november , , herself also acquire the same antipathy that you have testified you had with respect to the paines? mr. oswald. i would be of the opinion, sir, that she has not or does not have the antipathy that i have to the paines. however, i feel confident that she has followed my advice along that line, and not contacted mr. or mrs. paine since november , . mr. jenner. all right, sir. mr. dulles. did you have the impression that mrs. paine had some ulterior motive, other than a good motive, desire to befriend marina when she was in some distress, and to gain the chance to talk russian with her? mr. oswald. no, sir; i would not have an opinion of that, since i was not aware of the circumstances of how they did become acquainted, and consequently started living in her residence in irving, tex. mr. dulles. i gathered from your previous testimony that your feeling, visceral feeling, related both to mrs. paine and to mr. paine. mr. oswald. yes, sir; it did. more so, if i might add, sir, to mr. paine than mrs. paine. but still i will include both of them in that answer. mr. dulles. did you know anything of mr. paine's background and affiliations? mr. oswald. no, sir; i did not. mr. dulles. you knew of mrs. paine's interest in learning russian, did you not, and in russian matters? mr. oswald. following november , , this has been reported to me. mr. dulles. by marina? mr. oswald. no, sir; i believe i read this in various reported news articles and magazines that she has stated this was her intention. mr. dulles. and marina did not talk to you about either of the paines particularly? mr. oswald. no, sir; not to any extent. mr. jenner. your information with respect to the paines, other than your meeting them, i believe you said, the evening of november , and later in the inn of the six flags, is based primarily--in addition to that--on items you have read in the newspaper and that sort of thing? mr. oswald. sir, to fully understand the question, you referred to a meeting of mr. and mrs. paine at the inn of the six flags? mr. jenner. i thought you said that mrs. paine--or was it mrs. ford in the inn of the six flags? mr. oswald. no, sir; neither of the ladies you have mentioned were in the inn of the six flags. mr. jenner. then your whole acquaintance with the paines was your being introduced to them, is that correct? mr. oswald. no, sir; that is not correct. mr. jenner. would you relate your acquaintance with the paines, and when it first arose? mr. oswald. the first occasion that i met mr. and mrs. paine, was at the dallas police station on the night of november , . mr. dulles. may i ask there--had you heard about them before? mr. oswald. no, sir; i had not. mr. dulles. hadn't even heard about them? mr. oswald. no, sir; i had not. and my subsequent second meeting with mr. and mrs. paine--and i might add my last meeting with mr. and mrs. paine--was at their home in irving, tex., on the day that mr. john thorne, mr. jim martin and myself--for the purpose of picking up marina n. oswald's and lee harvey oswald's personal belongings. this was the only time that i have met them since the night of november , . mr. dulles. did anything transpire on that occasion, when you were taking up marina's and your brother's belongings? mr. oswald. perhaps, sir, the only thing that i recall that would perhaps be of some type of significance was that mr. paine, at the approximate time we were ready to depart from his home, called me over to the side and stated that he would like to know where marina was staying, and they would like to be in contact with her. and my comment to him was that marina was leaving the area, and that she was to be well taken care of. and at that time we left. mr. dulles. do you know whether the paines have been in touch with marina since that particular time, when you left the paine's home? mr. oswald. to my knowledge, sir, they have not in person been in contact with marina oswald. however, it is my understanding from mr. jim martin and mrs. marina oswald that mrs. paine has written a number of letters to mrs. marina oswald during her stay at the martin's home in dallas, tex. mr. dulles. do you know the content of those letters? mr. oswald. no, sir; i do not. mr. dulles. do you know whether marina still has them in her possession? mr. oswald. i would be of the opinion that she does, sir. and the only comment she had made to me directly, or mr. martin perhaps made to me, as to the contents of the letters was that they wanted to talk with marina, they wanted to be in contact with marina in person. mr. dulles. thank you. mr. jenner. off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. dulles. back on the record. mr. jenner. mr. oswald, during all of the time that your brother and your sister-in-law marina resided in fort worth, tex., were you aware of any occasion when your sister resided or visited with, and lived with, anyone else other than your brother lee in their home? mr. oswald. sir, if i may correct you--you referred to her as my sister. mr. jenner. i meant sister-in-law. mr. oswald. no, sir; i was not acquainted at any time that she did. mr. jenner. do you have any knowledge or acquaintance with whether marina did any shopping on her own? mr. oswald. during the period that they were in fort worth, tex., sir? mr. jenner. yes. mr. oswald. yes, sir, i am acquainted. mr. jenner. would you relate your knowledge in that respect? mr. oswald. a conversation with my wife on return home from work one afternoon, approximately the latter part of june --correction, sir. it was not a conversation with my wife--it was a conversation with my mother, at approximately the latter part of august , or the first part of october . and, to the best of my recollection, the conversation was to the effect that lee harvey oswald had gone downtown in fort worth, tex., looking for a job, and that marina wanted to find lee while he was downtown, and even though reportedly from my mother that she insisted that she not leave the house, she did, carrying the baby, june lee oswald with her, and walked approximately or blocks into downtown fort worth. it is my understanding that she became lost or needed assistance in her directions, in her attempt either to find lee harvey oswald or return home, that she asked the assistance of a police officer, and that apparently she did not have any other difficulty. it is my understanding at that time that she did purchase either some baby clothes or perhaps some clothes for herself. mr. jenner. and this was all related to you by your mother? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. and does that exhaust your fund of knowledge as to any shopping trips or visiting and shopping at a local shopping center or stores by marina? mr. oswald. yes, sir--prior to november . mr. jenner. november , ? mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is correct. mr. dulles. the diary, or memorandum, has considerable information, you may recall, with purchases that were made by others for marina and the child, as i recall. mr. jenner. that was afterward. mr. dulles. that was afterward? mr. oswald. if i may, sir, i do recall another instance. in the presence of myself, lee harvey oswald and mrs. marina oswald and the baby june lee oswald, approximately the middle of june --the occasion was a grocery shopping for my family and for---- mr. jenner. june of ? mr. oswald. thank you, sir. june of . and this was to my knowledge---- mr. jenner. your statement was a slip of the tongue? mr. oswald. that is correct. and there was, to my knowledge, at that time the first occasion that mrs. marina oswald had ever been in a supermarket of the nature that is found in the united states. mr. jenner. tell us about the occasion. mr. oswald. i remember the occasion quite vividly. if you ever have the opportunity, sir, to take a person of that nature into a supermarket or an average size store, and watch the expression on their face, as to the magnitude of the food and the variety of the food that was in her presence--and i believe for the first time to any extent--it was quite a pleasant observation, i might add, sir. she was quite overwhelmed. mr. jenner. surprised and overwhelmed? mr. oswald. surprised---- mr. dulles. there is nothing like it in minsk. mr. oswald. i feel certain, sir, there is not. mr. jenner. did you get the impression that her reaction was such to indicate that at least she had never seen anything of this nature? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i was of the exact opinion she had not seen anything anywhere comparable to that in the nature of a food store. mr. jenner. now, did you get the impression this was a spontaneous reaction on her part? mr. oswald. most certainly it was, sir. mr. jenner. she was not putting on an act to impress you and lee and anyone accompanying you? mr. oswald. no, sir. mr. jenner. this is of interest, mr. chairman, particularly the spontaneity. mr. dulles. was that in dallas or fort worth? mr. oswald. this was in fort worth, tex. mr. jenner. this is while they were living with you, mr. oswald? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. how did this arise? did you just decide--was this part of showing her fort worth, or was it developed from desiring to go to the supermarket to purchase something, or was it a combination of both? mr oswald. sir, i believe it was a combination of both. if i might add, the store that i went into was not the store that i usually purchased groceries from. mr. jenner. you were leading--you were doing the leading of this party? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. and, in addition to yourself and marina, who was present? mr. oswald. only the baby, june lee oswald. mr. jenner. just the two of you going, and you were showing her around the town? mr. oswald. and lee harvey oswald. mr. dulles. and you made some purchases? mr. oswald. yes, sir; we did. and she made some purchases. or she selected some items. mr. dulles. can you tell us whether marina had from time to time a certain amount of money for her own disposition? did your brother lee leave her money? mr. oswald. not to my knowledge that he did, sir. mr. jenner. would it be your impression that he did not? mr. oswald. it would be my impression that he did not. mr. jenner. i would appreciate it if you would proceed to tell about your taking her around on this particular day, and her reactions, perhaps, to other things that you showed her in fort worth at this early stage of her being in this country. mr. oswald. her reactions in the supermarket, sir, as i have testified, i believe to be completely spontaneous, and certainly from all appearances it was entirely new to her. i do recall we started off in the section of the store--do you want me to name the store, sir? mr. jenner. yes; you might do that. mr. oswald. it was a safeway grocery store, located on camp bowie and ridglea addition of fort worth, tex. mr. jenner. i take it camp bowie is the name of a street? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. and you obtained any additional impressions as you made this tour of fort worth, that is, as to her reactions to her new surroundings? mr. oswald. yes, sir. she reacted to a walk that we took after leaving the grocery store and drove across the street to a suburban shopping center, with a large variety of different type stores. i do not recall going into any particular store. we were, as the term is applied, window shopping. and she was quite impressed at the articles of clothing, of jewelry, of shoes, and such items as might be displayed in this type of suburban shopping center which would more or less encompass a full variety of practically everything other than large appliances at this time. mr. jenner. all right. at any time prior to november , , did you become acquainted with her habits, if any, with respect to independent shopping on her part--that is, shopping by herself for foodstuffs or articles of clothing for little june or for herself? mr. oswald. none other than, sir, that i have already related as related by my mother to me. mr. jenner. is the name hutch's market familiar to you? mr. oswald. it is not. mr. jenner. you testified yesterday that, as i recall--and if i am incorrect, please correct me--that your impression at least was that your mother was opposed to your marriage? mr. oswald. that is right. mr. jenner. am i correct up to that point? mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is right. mr. jenner. without the degree of that opposition. was it quite affirmative? did she make any scene? did she talk--express to you unequivocally her opposition? give us those circumstances, please. mr. oswald. no, sir; i do not recall any specific instance where she firmly stated that she was against my marriage. it might have been little things along that line she might have said to me that i do not recall formulated my opinion that she was to some degree at least having objections to my marriage. mr. jenner. but did you have the feeling, and was it conveyed to you, that she was quite affirmatively opposed to your marriage? mr. oswald. i would say generally; yes, sir. mr. jenner. all right. did marina and your mother stay at the adolphus hotel in dallas? mr. oswald. in what period? mr. jenner. before they moved to the executive house? mr. dulles. right after november --maybe the night of november . i think they had a room and moved out. mr. jenner. i thought the witness referred to the adolphus hotel yesterday. mr. mckenzie. he has not referred to the adolphus hotel. mr. oswald. i believe that is right. my first occasion to meet with my mother and marina oswald on november , ---- mr. jenner. that is a saturday. mr. oswald. was at the adolphus hotel, rather than the baker hotel, as noted in my notes on page , in my diary. mr. jenner. i had noted that, mr. oswald. and would you identify the page to which you have reference now? mr. oswald. page , sir. mr. jenner. page of your memorandum? mr. oswald. that is right. and i might point out at the time i wrote it down in parens--"i believe." in other words, my statement was "i received a call from mother while at the da's office, and she advised she was at the baker hotel--i believe." mr. jenner. and your recollection has now been refreshed that that was the adolphus hotel rather than the baker hotel? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i am of the opinion now it was the adolphus hotel rather than the baker hotel. mr. jenner. and then the next day they were moved to or themselves moved to executive house. mr. oswald. no, sir; that is not correct. they were moved later on, on saturday, november , , to the executive inn. mr. jenner. executive inn that is called? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. rather than executive house? mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is right. mr. jenner. they went from the adolphus hotel in dallas to the executive inn? mr. oswald. yes, sir. that is my understanding, that they did. mr. jenner. i see. mr. dulles. were those quarters, as far as you recall, retained for them by the life people, life, time, fortune people? mr. oswald. in my conversation with my mother on saturday, november , while i was at the district attorney's office in dallas, tex., she related to me at that time that they had furnished her and marina oswald and the babies three rooms at the adolphus hotel, and that life magazine was paying for these rooms, and that they could keep these rooms as they wanted--as long as they wanted to be close to lee and the situation that was erupting in dallas, tex., at this time. mr. jenner. i see. did you, during this period of time, have occasion to visit them at the adolphus hotel? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i did. mr. jenner. and is that recorded in your memorandum. mr. oswald. yes, sir; it is. mr. jenner. then i don't wish to burden the record by asking you about it again. did you have occasion to visit them at the executive inn? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i did. mr. jenner. and is that recorded in your memorandum? mr. oswald. yes, sir; it is. mr. jenner. identify the page, please. mr. oswald. that begins on page , at the bottom of the page, under the date of sunday, november , . mr. jenner. and on that same day, did they move to the inn of the six flags? mr. oswald. that is right--later on in the afternoon, sunday, november . mr. jenner. did you accompany them on that occasion? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i did. i was in a separate car, but they were in the same party. mr. jenner. all three phases, mr. oswald--adolphus hotel, executive inn, and the journey to and living at the inn of the six flags, they are recorded in your memorandum? mr. oswald. yes, sir; they are. mr. jenner. did there come a time when differences arose between marina and your mother? mr. mckenzie. you have covered that. mr. jenner. are you sure? mr. mckenzie. i will submit it to the chair. mr. dulles. i would think so. i think that has been covered. mr. oswald. did you want me to answer that, sir? mr. jenner. we don't want it if it is repetitious. mr. oswald. i believe that has already been testified to, sir. mr. jenner. during the course of the days immediately following november , , whether at the adolphus or the executive inn or the inn of the six flags, did any time arise, any talk with you or in your presence, of a supposed possible conspiracy between the secret service men on the one hand and marina on the other? mr. oswald. no, sir; there was not. mr. jenner. nothing of that character arose, as far as you can recall? mr. oswald. no, sir. mr. jenner. and i may say to you, mr. oswald, that the purpose of asking you that question is a statement made by your mother that there was a conspiracy between marina and the secret service to turn marina against your mother and against your brother, lee harvey oswald, or the memory of your brother. mr. oswald. i would say to the best of my remembrance of all happenings at the inn of the six flags that at no time, to my knowledge, was there any type of conspiracy of that nature, and at no time was i aware of any type of conspiracy that would even resemble that statement, sir. mr. jenner. all right. mr. dulles. as i recall, however, you have testified that you discussed with the secret service the type of interrogation that the fbi were carrying on, and that has been fully presented in the record. mr. oswald. that is right. mr. jenner. following november , , you saw a good deal of marina, did you not in those few days? you were guiding her and advising her? mr. oswald. that is right. mr. jenner. and you already testified that on at least one occasion, or maybe two, that you had taken her to your brother's grave in the cemetery. mr. oswald. yes, sir; on quite a few other occasions also. mr. jenner. in addition? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. dulles. and in your memorandum or diary--i don't know how we described that, but i think variously as memorandum or diary. mr. jenner. i would say memorandum, except the last pages a diary. mr. dulles. in your memorandum you have recounted certain problems in connection with the funeral arrangements. is there anything else you would like to add to that? mr. oswald. no, sir; i would not. mr. jenner. on the basis of your participating in the course of events subsequent to november , and your continuing presence at the inn, and advising your sister-in-law, marina, do you have an opinion as to whether the secret service or anyone else was overly influencing marina? or even that they were attempting to influence her? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i believe that--perhaps i did not get the full statement there. i believe you included anyone, including the secret service agents. mr. jenner. could we confine it to the secret service first? mr. oswald. all right. in answer to that part of the question, i would say i felt like they were not attempting to influence marina. mr. jenner. would it be your impression that they were trying to be completely fair, even leaning over backwards? or do you have any impression in that respect? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i do have an impression and opinion on that. mr. jenner. would you state it? mr. oswald. that i felt at no time during our stay at the inn of the six flags during the week of november , , including sunday, november , , that the united states secret service agents that were present at one time or another did anything other than to be extremely helpful to marina, and not to the point of attempting to affect her judgment or to, so to speak, put words into her mouth, or in any way lead her with relation to the events that had occurred on november , , or prior events that she had recorded on her tape recording interview in the inn of the six flags, or the events that happened sunday, november , , until the time she left the inn of the six flags. in other words, they conducted themselves in a highly admirable way at all times. mr. jenner. now, would you give us your same opinion with respect to the fbi? mr. oswald. as i testified yesterday, sir; i was of the opinion on the first and the second interview--and i refer to the first interview as i did yesterday as an attempted interview, and i referred to the second interview, to the best of my recollection it was the second interview, at which time the fbi, in my opinion, kept marina oswald in an interview to the extent that it had almost entirely exhausted her. mr. jenner. is this the occasion you related to us yesterday, or is this another one? mr. oswald. no, sir; this is the second occasion, when there was an interview. mr. jenner. would you please tell us about that, and when it occurred? mr. oswald. this interview occurred approximately wednesday night, november , . mr. jenner. where? mr. oswald. at the inn of the six flags, at which time the fbi agents and mr. tom kelley, of the united states secret service, left the room that we had been staying in with marina oswald and went to the adjoining set of rooms that was located, of course, right next to the room we had been staying, and commenced an interview. it is my understanding that mr. kelley was not present at this interview. however, he was in the adjoining room to that set of rooms, and that he was not permitted to be within the immediate interviewing area. i do not recall the exact length of this interview. but as the night progressed, it became at least apparent to me that due to the state of marina oswald at that time, considering all the things that had occurred, and the difficulty that she was having producing enough milk for the baby rachel, that they were extremely disregarding her own personal welfare at this time. and i did go to the adjoining rooms, and i believe mr. kelley opened the door. and at that time i related to him that the babies had awakened, and that they needed their mother, marina oswald. he immediately informed the interviewers in the next room. and as my memory serves me, mr. kelley turned to me and stated he was glad i did that, and i stated to him that the babies were still asleep, and i did it on the very purpose of stopping the interview, too, to the length and the nature of marina's welfare, and to the extent that that was quite late at night. mr. dulles. were you present during the whole interview? mr. oswald. no, sir; i was not. i was in the adjoining rooms, keeping an eye just in case the babies did wake and so forth. mr. dulles. was there an interpreter present at that time? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. dulles. was that fbi or secret service interpreter? mr. oswald. to the best of my memory, sir, that was mr. lee gopadze of the united states secret service. mr. mckenzie. mr. gopadze was participating in the interview? mr. oswald. that is right. mr. dulles. but only as interpreter. mr. oswald. that is right. mr. jenner. do you have an opinion as to whether marina was or is involved in any plot or conspiracy in connection with this affair? mr. oswald. may i have the first part of that question again? (the reporter read the question.) mr. oswald. no, sir; i do not. mr. jenner. do you have an opinion to the contrary? that is, that she is not? mr. oswald. i am of the opinion, sir, that she is not involved in any conspiracy or was involved in any way with the event that took place on november , . mr. jenner. thank you. mr. dulles. could i ask a question there? do you have any opinion as to whether any american security service, secret service, fbi, cia, were in any way involved in any conspiracy or plot or otherwise involved in this whole affair? mr. oswald. sir, you are asking me of my opinion? mr. dulles. only your opinion, yes--obviously if you have information or any evidence we would like to have it. mr. oswald. no, sir; i do not have any evidence or information along that line. i do have an opinion, sir, qualified to this extent. that it is very difficult for me to feel that lee harvey oswald acted entirely on his own without any assistance whatsoever. now, whether this assistance was from my--from any member of any government agency, or just individuals, i do not know. i do feel like he had assistance of one nature or another, sir. mr. mckenzie. robert, that does not answer mr. dulles' question. and i want you to answer his question fully. mr. dulles. my question was really directed toward any security agency of the united states government. mr. mckenzie. if i may state your question, mr. dulles, to mr. oswald--his question was whether or not any security agency of the united states government, whether it be the fbi, the secret service, the cia, or any government agency, had any part in a conspiracy or plot dealing with the events of november , and what your opinion is concerning the same. mr. dulles. that is correctly stated. mr. oswald. all right. i would correct my answer to this extent, sir. i would be of the opinion that no agency of the united states government was in any way involved with the assassination of the president of the united states on november , . does that answer the question? mr. jenner. or in any way involved with your brother's, lee harvey oswald. would you go that far? mr. oswald. when we say involved, sir--excluding the interviews that i am aware of and so forth. yes, sir; i would be of that opinion. mr. dulles. to which you have testified with regard to the fbi and the immigration and naturalization. mr. oswald. that is right. mr. jenner. would you elaborate further, please, when you first undertook to answer mr. dulles question--you made some references to an opinion on your part that your brother, lee harvey oswald, must have had some assistance. would you please state what you had in mind there? assistance with what, sir? mr. oswald. my opinion on that, sir, would be that, concluding that lee harvey oswald did actually shoot the president of the united states and governor connally of texas on november , --i do feel that he did have assistance to the extent that perhaps some money was given to him, and that other types of assistance, such as perhaps training and orientations as to perhaps the method to be used. i believe that would conclude my opinion on the assistance i had reference to. mr. jenner. this is based, i gather from what you have just said, on the assumption or opinion--i will say assumption first--that your brother lee harvey oswald did assassinate president kennedy? mr. oswald. that is right. mr. jenner. and do you have that opinion? mr. oswald. that he did assassinate the president of the united states? mr. jenner. yes. mr. oswald. on his own, sir? mr. dulles. did he handle the gun and shoot the shots? mr. jenner. let's take it in alternatives. you state it in your own words. mr. mckenzie. he has stated this once before, but i am going to ask him to state it again. mr. jenner. yes, i would like to have that clearly stated. mr. oswald. sir, as i previously testified to that question, based on the circumstantial evidence that has been put forth and that i have read from the newspapers and general impression of the time that the event took place, and the subsequent following days of that event, that i would be of the opinion, purely based on these circumstantial points, that he did actually fire the rifle that killed the president of the united states and wounded the governor of texas, mr. connally. mr. dulles. the same would apply to the attack on officer tippit? mr. oswald. i would base my opinion on officer tippit's death, sir, on my conversation with the district attorney of dallas, tex., on the morning of saturday, november , , at which time during our conversation he said in his mind and based on the evidence and the eye witnesses, that he was reported to have, that there was no question to him that lee harvey oswald did in fact kill officer j. d. tippit in dallas, tex. mr. mckenzie. and you believe that would be correct? mr. oswald. i believe that would be correct. mr. jenner. have you had any conversation with marina---- mr. dulles. just one point on that. you have testified that you felt that your brother did have or would have required some outside help or assistance to do what he did--roughly to that effect, i believe. mr. oswald. that is right. mr. dulles. have you any idea at all or any thoughts as to what kind of help, where that could have come from, who was involved. i have in mind--was this in your opinion a rightist plot, a leftist plot, an anarchist plot? mr. oswald. if i may take your question, sir; in the parts that you pointed out--i believe the first part was to where and how. mr. dulles. and who. mr. jenner. may have assisted. mr. oswald. the where and the how, sir, i am not of any opinion. and as to who might have assisted him, as related in my diary, or memorandum---- mr. jenner. identify the page, please. mr. oswald. on page --and i quote--"i still do not know why or how, but mr. and mrs. paine are somehow involved in this affair." i am still of that opinion, sir. and as to any other persons that i might suggest was involved in any way in this affair, i do not know of their names nor can i identify them in any way. mr. dulles. as this covers two of my questions---- mr. jenner. why don't you proceed. mr. dulles. may i proceed at this time. i will proceed with a couple of questions i have at this time. mr. oswald. pardon me, sir; may i interrupt you here? and i would like to add something to my previous statement there. mr. dulles. please, yes. mr. oswald. perhaps there is one other person that i feel like would be involved in this affair, and the subsequent death of my brother, lee harvey oswald, and that was the man that actually shot lee harvey oswald, mr. jack ruby or mr. rubenstein. and that would be the only other party that i could possibly attempt to identify that i feel like would have been involved and perhaps assisted lee in this assassination. mr. jenner. would you please give us the basis of your opinion? mr. oswald. i am of the opinion, as previously stated, based on newspaper accounts and magazine articles of mr. ruby's activities, to the best of my remembrance, as reported in one newspaper i recall reading after november , , that a period of a couple of months, or months, prior to mr. ruby's killing my brother, lee harvey oswald, in a dallas police station, that he appeared at the dallas police station and started making acquaintances at the dallas police station to the extent that he, from then on, appeared frequently and was able to move about the dallas police station very easily. based on that and the shooting of lee harvey oswald, i am of the opinion that mr. ruby did in fact know lee harvey oswald prior to sunday, november , --sunday, november , , and that he was in my opinion paid to silence lee harvey oswald. mr. dulles. this is based on--this opinion is based on what you have read in the press subsequent to november ? mr. oswald. november ; sir, , the day of my brother's death. up until that time i had never heard of mr. jack ruby. mr. dulles. i was including all of the press accounts that carried through from the time of the assassination. mr. jenner. well, the witness has referred, of course, to events immediately preceding november --that is mr. ruby's apparent interest in--his frequent visits to the quarters--did you say the police department? mr. oswald. yes, sir; the dallas police station. mr. dulles. i was trying to get at also--to cover what you had previously said about possible aid in connection with the assassination of the president. is that based largely on what you have read subsequent thereto? mr. oswald. that is right. mr. dulles. this question of mine covers the whole period of your relationship with your brother. do you recall during that entire period, up to november , that your brother made any comments with regard to president kennedy of a derogatory nature or character or of any other character? did he ever discuss the president with you during the whole period? of course, he was only president for the last years. mr. oswald. no, sir; i do not recall at any time that he ever mentioned president kennedy's name or referred to him in any way, either pro or con. mr. dulles. governor connally--the same question. mr. oswald. no, sir; not as governor connally. mr. dulles. or as secretary of the navy? mr. oswald. yes, sir; to the extent that he had mentioned his letter to governor connally, his request for his assistance in correcting the dishonorable or undesirable discharge that he had received from the united states marine corps. mr. dulles. what was his comment with regard to mr. connally, secretary of the navy, and later governor? mr. mckenzie. if you recall, go ahead and tell him. but it is covered in some of the letters previously introduced into testimony. mr. jenner. if there was any discussion, i would like to have that. and i take it, mr. chairman, you are interested in that as well. mr. dulles. i am interested in that, because there has been some testimony here from mrs. oswald to the general effect that he had not expressed any antipathy to secretary of the navy and governor connally, but rather the contrary. i would like to get your impression of that, what he might have said to you on that subject. mr. oswald. all right. i do recall a conversation at my home in fort worth, tex., between myself and lee harvey oswald---- mr. jenner. fix the time, please. mr. oswald. approximately the middle part of june , at which time the subject was brought up by him about his efforts to have the discharge corrected to an honorable discharge, and that again he advised me that he had written to the then secretary of the navy, john b. connally, and that mr. connally, or his office had replied that he was no longer the secretary of the navy, and that he had turned over the correspondence to the then secretary of the navy, mr. korth, i believe. mr. mckenzie. mr. fred korth. mr. oswald. i do not recall any further discussion on that subject. and he did not indicate to me the pro or con of any antipathy toward mr. connally. mr. dulles. he expressed no antipathy? mr. jenner. as a person? mr. oswald. as a person, he did not make any comment, sir. mr. jenner. and did he at any time, apart from this particular event you are now relating, at any time prior to november , , ever express any antipathy toward governor connally as a person? mr. oswald. no, sir; he did not. mr. dulles. did you ever hear marina oswald express any views about president kennedy one way or the other? mr. oswald. no, sir; i do not recall at any time that she has expressed any views on mr. kennedy. mr. dulles. do you recall at any time that lee harvey oswald expressed antipathy to government in general, people in authority, leaders? mr. oswald. no, sir; i do not recall. mr. dulles. did he express any--apart from the letters, what he said in his letters to you, which we have--but after he returned from the soviet union, and during the period you saw him, subsequent to his return, did he ever discuss with you the failures of government, that government itself was not good, or if the kind of government we had in the united states was not good, as was expressed to some extent in the letters? mr. oswald. no, sir; i do not recall at any time other than in his letters during the period of the latter part of , at any time that he made any derogatory remarks about any official or any particular leader or the government of the united states. mr. dulles. and that statement would include general walker, would it? mr. oswald. yes, sir; it most certainly would. mr. dulles. he never discussed general walker with you? mr. oswald. no, sir; i never heard him mention the gentleman's name. mr. dulles. did your brother have any sort of pet hatreds, institutions, people or otherwise, that he disliked, apart from what he said in his letters? i am talking now of the period after his return from russia. mr. oswald. no, sir; to my knowledge he did not. mr. dulles. i have nothing further at this time. i may have one last question at the end. do you wish to follow up on any of these points? mr. jenner. no; not right at the moment. would you take your diary. there are one or two items that i would like to clear up. page --you speak of the old denton plant and the new denton plant. would you please locate those plants? mr. oswald. they are both located at denton, tex., and they are located approximately a mile apart, sir. mr. jenner. and they are the plants of the acme brick co. by whom you are employed? mr. oswald. that is right. mr. jenner. and the reason i asked you about these is that you talk about going from the old to the new plant, and i wanted to locate them. mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. the incident in new orleans in which your brother was distributing literature of the fair play for cuba committee--did that come to your attention at that time? mr. oswald. no, sir; that did not. mr. jenner. and when was the first time that you became--you ever heard of the fair play for cuba committee, or anything about it? mr. oswald. i believe this to be, sir, to the best of my remembrance, on friday night, november , , at the fbi office in dallas, tex. mr. dulles. you are referring there, i assume, to lee harvey oswald's connection with the committee, aren't you? or are you referring to the fact whether he knew there was a committee. mr. jenner. both. i will separate those. did you know there was such a committee at any time up to that occasion--had you heard of its existence? mr. oswald. perhaps i had read about it in the paper and not recalling any significant value to myself i perhaps had forgotten about it. mr. jenner. then i will ask you the other part. had you heard of any connection on the part of your brother with or any activity on his part with respect to the fair play for cuba committee, prior to november , . mr. oswald. no, sir; i had not. mr. dulles. you knew nothing of his short arrest in new orleans? mr. oswald. no, sir; i did not. mr. dulles. you didn't even know he was arrested? mr. oswald. no, sir. i did not even know he had traveled from dallas, tex., to new orleans, until that night of november , . mr. jenner. page of your memorandum--you recited there that an announcer--i assume a radio station announcer--called you. did you find that? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i do find the area that you are referring to. the announcer did not call me, sir. it was the radio announcer on the radio. mr. jenner. i see. and what did the announcer say? mr. oswald. to the best of my remembrance, sir, the announcer stated that a man identified as lee oswald had been arrested in connection with a policeman's death and possibly the death of the president of the united states on or about that approximate time. mr. jenner. and was that the first intimation of any kind or character, or the first notice or knowledge to you, of the possible involvement of your brother, lee harvey oswald, either in the murder of policeman tippit or in the assassination of president kennedy. mr. oswald. that is right. mr. jenner. and where were you when that announcement was made? mr. oswald. i was in the office of the new denton plant when this announcement was made, or at least i first became aware of the announcement on the radio at that time. mr. jenner. now, would you give us your immediate mental reaction when you heard that? mr. oswald. i believe, sir, my reaction to that would be somewhat stunned. mr. jenner. stunned in the sense of disbelieving? you just could not absorb it? mr. oswald. no, sir; not to that extent. if i may say this. my own personal mental attitude, through my entire life, seems to react to trouble to the extent that i do not perhaps go to pieces, so to speak, that i react apparently calmly in the face of adversity. mr. jenner. i take it with that disposition that you have that anything in life is possible--no matter how extraordinary it may seem at the moment--you retain a grip on yourself? mr. oswald. yes, sir; or at least attempt to. mr. jenner. you were disbelieving, but it might have been--at least your thought was that it was possible, though, you were disbelieving at the moment? mr. oswald. that is right. mr. jenner. then you state in your memorandum on page that you immediately called your wife vada. mr. oswald. that is right. mr. jenner. and you went directly to the phone and called her? mr. oswald. that is right. mr. jenner. what did you say to her? mr. oswald. i asked her first had she been listening to the television or the radio set, and was she aware that lee had been arrested. she stated she had not heard this, even though she had been listening to television. in her statement to me, to the best of my recollection at that time, was that they had not, over the television set, referred to lee by name. mr. jenner. and, as i recall in your memorandum, you immediately told her you were going to come right home. mr. oswald. that is right. mr. jenner. and you did depart for home? mr. oswald. that is right. mr. jenner. on page of your memorandum, you make a reference to your brother's arrest. would you find that place on page ? the report to you of his arrest. mr. oswald. yes, sir; i have it. mr. jenner. and as i recall, that was a report to you that he had been arrested? mr. oswald. that is right. mr. jenner. by whom, and by what means? mr. oswald. over the telephone, by mr. dubose, the credit manager in our fort worth general office. and, "bob, brace yourself, your brother has been arrested." mr. jenner. what did you say? mr. oswald. "yes; i know. i just heard." mr. jenner. did mr. dubose elaborate? did he say only your brother has been arrested? mr. oswald. yes, sir. to the best of my recollection that was his exact words. mr. jenner. did he add, if i may refresh your recollection, assuming it is so, that he had been arrested in connection with the assassination of president kennedy, and the murder of officer tippit? mr. oswald. no, sir; i believe i did not give him an opportunity, if he wanted to state that, to complete his statement. mr. jenner. you have now given us the whole of that particular conversation? mr. oswald. that is right. if i might add--other than that as noted on page , that he did advise me that my mother was trying to reach me, and gave me a number to call. mr. jenner. i wish to go to that next. you did call her? mr. oswald. that is right. mr. jenner. and where was she? to where was your call directed? mr. oswald. to fort worth, tex., to which address i am not acquainted, but the telephone number is her residence in fort worth, tex. i believe that to be thomas place. mr. jenner. and when you called that number, your mother was home? mr. oswald. that is right. mr. jenner. all right. what did you say to her? mr. oswald. my comment to her that this was robert, and she immediately started advising me of what she had heard, and that she had been in contact with a star telegram reporter. mr. jenner. that is the star telegram reporter for the dallas star telegram? mr. oswald. no, sir, for the fort worth star telegram, sir. mr. jenner. thank you. mr. oswald. and that she was going to go to dallas in the presence of this fort worth star telegram, and she asked me did i have enough money to fly down immediately. i advised her i was or miles away from dallas, tex., that i was not in arkansas, and that it was my intention to go to dallas just as fast as possible. and she stated that she believed she would stay at the baker hotel, and asked me to meet her there. i agreed to this. however, this meeting never did take place at the baker hotel. mr. jenner. a meeting did take place at the adolphus? mr. oswald. no, sir. as prior testimony--at the dallas police station, on the night of november , . mr. jenner. you referred to, on page --to a fort worth general office, and a gentleman by the name of reger. mr. oswald. that is right. mr. jenner. and that is the fort worth general office of the acme brick co.? mr. oswald. that is right. mr. jenner. you mentioned another gentleman there. i don't know if i read your writing correctly. bill---- mr. oswald. darwin. mr. jenner. did you speak with him on that occasion that you related in your notes? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i did. mr. jenner. and what was the purpose of your talking with those gentlemen? mr. oswald. the purpose of talking to mr. darwin was to advise him that i needed to go to dallas, and his immediate reply was yes, he had just heard--i believe he did say--about lee, or about my brother, and that i was to do just anything that i deemed necessary and not worry about the office. and he did inform me at the latter part of this conversation that the fbi had called the fort worth general office in an attempt to talk to me or to locate me. mr. jenner. was any suggestion made by him at that time that you get in touch with the fort worth office of the fbi? mr. oswald. no, sir; i advised him that i would contact the fbi upon completion of our conversation. mr. jenner. and you did so? mr. oswald. i did so. mr. jenner. and a reference to that---- mr. dulles. by telephone? mr. oswald. that is right. mr. jenner. a reference to that appears on page of your memorandum. mr. oswald. that is right. mr. jenner. i won't go into that interview. but on that occasion, and all other occasions when you had interviews with, or were interviewed either by the fbi or secret service, you related the whole truth and nothing but the truth to the best of your knowledge and information at the time you were being interviewed? mr. oswald. that is right. mr. jenner. at this moment, had you contacted anyone other than those you have now mentioned? up to this point of the sequence of events? mr. oswald. may i qualify that question--outside of my office in denton, tex., sir. mr. jenner. the office in denton, tex., the call to your mother, the call to mrs. oswald, your wife vada, the call to the fbi office. mr. oswald. no, sir; i did not. mr. jenner. are all of the contacts that you had and all of the occasions of interviews during the period november , , through the following week, november , recorded in your memorandum? mr. dulles. i wonder if to save time we could ask him to review that memorandum and to report if he finds that there are other calls that were made. mr. jenner. will that be acceptable to you, mr. mckenzie? mr. mckenzie. fine. mr dulles, it is a quarter of one. being as how it is a quarter of one, i know you have a luncheon meeting to go to. our plane does not leave until o'clock. we have to leave here no later than : . we will be glad to have lunch and come back, if it would suit your convenience. mr. jenner. there are a couple of things, in the interests really of mr. oswald, that have turned up, when i studied the memorandum last night, that i am sure mr. mckenzie would like to have. mr. dulles. yes; i would like to give mr. mckenzie plenty of time. if the car is there, i can wait another or minutes. but i think that it would be better if i were to come back. we will recess at this time until p.m. (whereupon, at : p.m., the president's commission recessed.) afternoon session testimony of robert edward lee oswald resumed the president's commission reconvened at : p.m. mr. dulles. the commission will come to order. mr. jenner. returning to page of your memorandum, as i recall your recording of the events of that day, november , , you first learned of the assassination or attempted assassination as of that moment of president kennedy while you were at lunch with some fellow workers. mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. and would you identify those fellow workers, please? mr. oswald. if i might---- mr. mckenzie. i ask you to withdraw that. mr. jenner. all right. you don't like the expression "fellow workers"? mr. dulles. you object to the whole question, or just the way it was phrased? mr. mckenzie. let's rephrase it, mr. dulles, if i may, please. mr. jenner. i will yield to you, mr. mckenzie. fellow employees. mr. mckenzie. that is fine. mr. jenner. you were at lunch with fellow employees of acme brick co.? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. would you please identify those gentlemen? mr. oswald. they are mr. bill darwin, the director of marketing of the acme brick co., mr. burnett henry, director of plants and transportation of the acme brick co., mr. bob oech, who is the texas division plant manager. mr. jenner. of acme brick co.? mr. oswald. of acme brick co. and mr. bud adams, who is the plant manager of both the old and new denton plants. mr. jenner. and it was at this time and on this occasion at lunchtime that you first heard any intimation or otherwise of the assassination or attempted assassination of president kennedy? mr. oswald. yes, sir. at the completion of our lunch, as we were departing from the restaurant, as noted in my memorandum, page . mr. jenner. now, you speak on that page of driving in an automobile, either all or some of you gentlemen. whose automobile was that? mr. oswald. all of us were in one automobile, and we were in mr. burnett henry's automobile. mr. jenner. and i take it--did the automobile have a radio in it? mr. oswald. yes, sir; it did. mr. jenner. and did you gentlemen have the radio in operation? mr. oswald. yes, sir; we did. mr. jenner. and listening to it? mr. oswald. yes, sir; we were. mr. jenner. were you listening to anything in particular? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. what? mr. oswald. we were listening to a newscast of the events that had already taken place in dallas, tex., at approximately : that afternoon. mr. jenner. and you record the time in your notebook? mr. oswald. yes, sir--as approximately p.m., sir. mr. jenner. i think we had reached page of your memorandum. you record on pages and --i think towards the bottom of page , and the upper portion of page --your meeting that day or early evening with marina and, i believe your mother--but at least marina. is that correct? in dallas? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. and just for the purpose of making sure of the record, i gather from your testimony yesterday that this was the first time that you had seen marina since thanksgiving day of ? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. and where did this visit take place--where did you meet her on this occasion? mr. oswald. at the dallas police station. mr. jenner. did she have either or both of her children with her? mr. oswald. she had both of her children with her. mr. jenner. that would include the infant rachel? mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is correct. mr. jenner. were you advised at any time prior to this occasion that her second child had been born to her? mr. oswald. no, sir; i had not been. mr. jenner. and this was the first information you had on this subject? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. dulles. you probably knew that a child was contemplated. mr. jenner. well, he might not. mr. oswald. no, sir; i wasn't aware of that. mr. jenner. had you even up to that moment been advised directly or indirectly that marina had been pregnant, from which pregnancy the child rachel had been born? mr. oswald. no, sir; i had not been advised. mr. jenner. was there an interpreter present at the time you visited with marina; as i recall your mother was present, also. mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. was there an interpreter there at that time? mr. oswald. there was a mrs. paine there, who was acting as an interpreter. mr. jenner. you have now named everybody present--yourself, marina, and her two children, your mother, yourself, and mrs. paine. mr. oswald. with the exception, sir, that there was a police officer, or my assumption that he was a police officer, in the room. mr. jenner. was he in uniform or plain clothes? mr. oswald. plain clothes. mr. dulles. mr. paine was not there at this time? mr. oswald. no, sir, he was not. mr. dulles. he came later that day, did he? mr. oswald. just a very few minutes after this meeting. mr. jenner. mrs. paine then acted as interpreter between yourself and marina and between her and others in the party? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. did you say anything in the presence of everybody to her with respect to the birth of her second child, which came as a complete surprise to you? mr. oswald. if memory serves me correct, sir, i did make some type of statement to that effect. mr. jenner. did you express surprise? mr. oswald. i feel certain that i did, sir. mr. jenner. do you recall now--you walked into the room, and there was marina with these others, but with two children, one an infant that you had not seen before. was it immediately explained to you? did you inquire as to the identity of the infant? can you reconstruct that for us? mr. oswald. to the best of my remembrance on that, sir, possibly during the preceding half hour, when i was talking with my mother, she possibly--this i am not clear--advised me of the second child. if she did not, i was, of course, much more surprised when i walked into the room where marina was holding the infant. i remember looking at the infant, as marina held the infant, and making some type of comment about whether or not it was a boy or girl and how old it was. mr. jenner. i don't recall this recorded in your memorandum--and it may very well be--that the preceding half hour you had had a meeting or conference with your mother? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. and was that--in whose presence was that conference? mr. oswald. first in the presence of two or three fbi agents, and a star telegram reporter, fort worth star telegram reporter, at the dallas police station. mr. jenner. do you record that event in your memorandum? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i do, on page . mr. jenner. on page there is a reference, i think i have interpreted your writing, to a mr. cummings. would you find that place on page ? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i have it. mr. jenner. do i interpret your writing correctly? mr. oswald. that is correct. i believe his name to be a lieutenant cummings. mr. jenner. that is what i sought. he was an officer of the dallas police force? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. i believe you record on page , that mr. cummings, lieutenant cummings, or some other--well, i don't want to interpret what you do record--but you received a report at that time, according to your memorandum, of the fact of the arrest of your brother, lee, in connection with the murder of officer tippit. mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. is that the first information you had that your brother had actually been arrested in connection with that incident? mr. oswald. no, sir; it was not. mr. jenner. when had you first received information in that respect? mr. oswald. as my prior testimony stated, at the office, at the new denton plant, when lee's name was first mentioned, stating that he had been arrested in regards to the shooting to death of a police officer, and possibly the president of the united states. mr. jenner. all right. page --did you, at the time of the events recorded on page , see or request to see your brother, lee harvey oswald? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i did. mr. jenner. and of whom did you make that request? first i would put it this way: did you see lee harvey oswald on that day or evening? mr. oswald. no, sir; i did not. mr. jenner. but you did make a request? of whom did you make that request? mr. oswald. to a police officer. i cannot recall his name. he reportedly passed on my request to captain of police, captain fritz. mr. jenner. and what was his response? mr. oswald. the police officer who passed on my request asked that i stay around, that captain fritz was quite busy, that he would see me later. mr. jenner. and did you see captain fritz later? mr. oswald. i did see him, but i did not talk to him. by this, i mean he was in his glass office, within an office, and i did see him through the glass, but i did not talk to captain fritz. mr. jenner. what was the disposition of your--at least as of that day--of your request to see your brother? mr. oswald. none, sir. mr. jenner. not decided either way? mr. oswald. i never did receive an answer either way, sir. mr. jenner. i see. and you eventually left the police station, did you? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. you record on page that you walked to your automobile, do you not? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i do. mr. jenner. now, would you trace your course from the time you left the dallas city police office to the time you retired that evening? mr. oswald. you are referring to the time that i first left the dallas police office? mr. jenner. yes--start there, and trace your steps to the time you retired for the evening. mr. oswald. well, my departure of the dallas police office--i walked to my car that was in a parking lot approximately seven blocks away. mr. jenner. about what time of day or evening was this? mr. oswald. to the best of my recollection, approximately o'clock at night, sir. mr. jenner. all right, sir. when you left the dallas police office or station, did you then have a definite route in mind as to where you were going? mr. oswald. no, sir; i did not. mr. jenner. you had no arrangements with anybody, and no one had any with you, with respect to where you might or could go? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. all right. proceed, please. mr. oswald. on arrival at my car in the parking lot in dallas, tex., i started to drive, i did drive to fort worth, tex., by highway . mr. jenner. you were then--you then had in mind doing what--returning home? mr. oswald. no, sir; that was not the direction of home, sir. i did not have anything in mind other than i wanted to drive and to arrange my thoughts at that particular time. mr. jenner. all right. now, you do say, and i quote from your memorandum, "i was attempting to arrange my thoughts and my fears." do you find that expression on page ? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. now, would you please explain to the commission what was meant when you recorded the sentence, "i was attempting to arrange my thoughts and my fears"? mr. oswald. what i meant by that statement, sir--not being disrespectful--i believe it speaks for itself in view of the happenings of the day. to further elaborate on that, i wanted to have some time by myself to think about the happenings of the day and the arrest of my brother, lee harvey oswald, and the reference to my fears, whether or not he could have possibly done this. he had been up to that time either accused or arrested for the death of police officer j. d. tippit, and the investigation that was now going on in dallas as to the death of the president of the united states and the wounding of governor connally, of texas. mr. jenner. all right. you were then driving in your automobile. did you actually reach fort worth? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i did. mr. jenner. and then what did you do? mr. oswald. after driving through fort worth, to the west side of fort worth, i turned around and headed back toward dallas. mr. jenner. excuse me. up to this point it was continuous driving, except as you might have been resting or waiting a change of stoplight or something of that character? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. did anybody contact you, or did you speak with anybody during the period of this drive up to the moment we now have reached? mr. oswald. no, sir; they did not. mr. jenner. all right, sir. you reversed your course and then where did you go? mr. oswald. when i reversed my course, i still did not have any idea as to exactly where i was going. but i did reverse my course, and i started driving on the turnpike between fort worth and dallas. mr. jenner. does that have a highway number? i notice you mentioned a highway . is that the same as the turnpike? mr. oswald. no, sir; it is not. mr. jenner. would you explain that, please? mr. oswald. highway is on the old highway from fort worth to dallas, the turnpike being a later and more modern trafficway. mr. mckenzie. and a toll road. mr. oswald. and a toll road. mr. jenner. did you take highway in going to fort worth? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i did. mr. jenner. but you returned by the toll road? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. all right, sir. i take it you continued your drive--continued to drive along, while you were attempting to rearrange your thoughts. mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. and you eventually arrived where? mr. oswald. at dallas, tex., sir. mr. jenner. did you become a guest of a hotel; did you register anywhere? mr. oswald. yes, sir, i did. mr. jenner. where? mr. oswald. at the statler hilton hotel. mr. jenner. in dallas? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. now, up to that moment, having in mind your route, had anybody contacted you, had you spoken with anybody? up to the time that you entered the statler hilton hotel to register? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i had spoken to somebody. mr. jenner. who was that? mr. oswald. a gas station attendant midway on the turnpike where i stopped to buy gas. mr. jenner. but other than that incident, you had no contact with anyone? mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. all right. you registered? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. did you go to your room? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i did. mr. dulles. approximately what time was this? mr. oswald. approximately : p.m., that night, sir. mr. jenner. after registering, did you retire for the evening, or did you go somewhere? mr. oswald. no, sir; i did not retire for the evening. i did, in fact, go into the coffee room of the statler hilton hotel in dallas, and have a ham sandwich and some milk, and shortly after completing this, i walked across the street, which was approximately a half a block down the street, to the dallas police station again. mr. jenner. all right. now, up to that moment, other than was necessary for you to register and your conversation with a waitress, in connection with your having some evening lunch, did you have any contact with anybody? mr. oswald. no, sir; i did not. mr. jenner. did you have any contact at all of any kind or character up to this moment with anybody in connection with the events of the day? mr. oswald. no, sir; i had not. mr. jenner. all right. you went across the street to the dallas city police station? mr. oswald. yes, sir, i did. mr. jenner. had you had an appointment? mr. oswald. no, sir, i did not. mr. jenner. what was your purpose in going across the street for that visit? mr. oswald. i wanted to speak to captain fritz, if possible. mr. jenner. you record on page that you entered the dallas police station, you were interviewed or consulted by some fbi agents in a small office. mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. do you recall their names? mr. oswald. no, sir; i do not. mr. jenner. i take it in any event, however, that they questioned you, did they? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. and were all the answers that you gave the truth and nothing but the truth to the best of your information, recollection, and belief, at that time? mr. oswald. it most certainly was, sir. mr. jenner. all right, sir. when did you learn, if you ever learned, that your brother, lee harvey oswald, had in fact been charged with the assassination of president kennedy? mr. oswald. at approximately midnight or a few minutes before midnight, november , . mr. jenner. and is that recorded on page of your memorandum? mr. oswald. yes, sir, it is. mr. jenner. what was your reaction when that information was conveyed to you? what were your thoughts? mr. oswald. i do not recall if i had any thoughts at that particular time, sir. i did not make any comment that i recall. i believe i just shook my head. mr. jenner. i was going to ask you in connection with page , your opinion respecting the possible involvement of your brother, lee harvey oswald, in the assassination of president kennedy, but mr. dulles this morning in his questions has covered that subject, so i will skip it. now, did you see captain fritz that evening? mr. oswald. no, sir, i did not. mr. jenner. did you attempt to see him? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i did. mr. jenner. did you inquire further with respect to an opportunity on your part that you wished to see your brother? mr. oswald. no, sir; i had been told so many times that captain fritz was quite busy, and i realize, of course, he was, and i let it go at that. mr. jenner. now, following your visit to the police station, which you do record there, and therefore i won't go into it further, what did you do that evening? mr. oswald. i returned to my hotel, sir. mr. jenner. and retired? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. now, between the time you left the statler hilton hotel and the time you returned there to retire, were you contacted by anybody or did you have any conversation with anybody respecting the course of events of the day, other than you have recorded in your memorandum? mr. oswald. no, sir; i did not. and i might add i did register under my regular name at the statler hilton. mr. jenner. i didn't even think to ask you that, because i assumed it was so. on page , you record and report the following morning an occasion when you were in the barber shop of the statler hilton, obtaining a shave. isn't that correct, sir? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. and you also record an observation by one or both of the barbers, i think the gentleman who was shaving you, on the subject of your brother, lee harvey oswald deserved a fair trial like anybody else. mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. and then you end up that comment, "but i did leave my barber a -cent tip." that followed an observation on your part that you did not engage in that conversation, and you merely listened. mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. now, would you indicate to me the significance if there is any significance, of the expression "but i did leave my barber a -cent tip." mr. oswald. the only significance, sir, that i put to it at that time was that for the first time i was listening to somebody other than police officers and fbi agents as to the past events of the preceding day, and i was more or less hearing again for the first time a reaction, either--pro and con, to these two gentlemen's opinions, who i would take at that time would be average people, as to whether or not lee did have a right to a fair trial, regardless of what he had done or been accused of. mr. jenner. and do i take it a fair interpretation of your comment is that you were pleased that average everyday people, that their reaction was that your brother, lee harvey oswald, was entitled to, and they hoped he would obtain a fair and impartial trial when put to trial? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. and your reference to a -cent tip was an emphasis in your own mind of your pleasure that a spontaneous reaction of ordinary people was that he was entitled to and they hoped he would receive a fair and impartial trial? mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. would you turn to page , please? you record events--you were then in the district attorney's office? mr. oswald. yes, sir; that is correct. mr. jenner. you refer to a "h. wade." who is h. wade? mr. oswald. mr. henry wade. mr. jenner. and what office did he hold? mr. oswald. dallas district attorney. mr. jenner. all right. i don't know as i interpret your handwriting clearly. it looks to me as though you have written reference to a jim bowie. who was jim bowie? mr. oswald. first assistant district attorney to mr. henry wade. mr. jenner. on page you use--you make a reference to, or a comment with regard to a conversation which i take it took place between you and mr. wade and mr. bowie, either or both of them, which was "not too informative." do you find that? mr. oswald. yes, sir, i do see the section that you are referring to--if i may elaborate on that. mr. jenner. i would like to have you elaborate. mr. oswald. "not too informative on either side." mr. jenner. either side of what? mr. oswald. referring to the district attorney's office as one side and my side as the other side. mr. jenner. on what issue? mr. oswald. of the conversations that we had in reference to the legal standing of lee harvey oswald or to his guilt, of the accusations that had been--that he had been charged with. mr. jenner. would you turn to page ? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. jenner. there is a reference there to a conversation as to whether lee harvey oswald would say anything to you when and if you interviewed him. mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. what did you have in mind as to the subject matter about which lee harvey oswald might speak with you? mr. oswald. to the amount of involvement, if any, with relation to the death of the president of the united states on november , . mr. jenner. you were then contemplating your prospective conversation with him? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. and you use an expression also there that you would do your best. do you find that? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i do. mr. jenner. now, you would do your best to do what, sir? mr. oswald. to find out. mr. jenner. from whom? mr. oswald. from lee harvey oswald, during our conversation or our---- mr. jenner. your prospective interview? mr. oswald. our prospective interview, whether or not he did in fact perform the acts, either alone or with other people, that he had been accused of. mr. jenner. i see. now, following that conversation that you do record on that page, did you see your brother? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i did. mr. jenner. where? mr. oswald. dallas police station. mr. jenner. will you describe the surroundings? mr. oswald. i was taken up on the elevator by a dallas police officer--mr. tom kelley, inspector from washington, d.c., u.s. secret service joined us, and one agent, mr. mike howard. on arrival to the floor where lee was being held, the police officer passed through a glass slot in the window to another police officer the pass, i believe signed by captain fritz, which authorization was for me to see lee harvey oswald. two or three minutes went by, and i was advised that he was now ready to see me, and i was taken to a small room to the left of the elevators on this floor, and no one else was in this room on his side, or my side of the glass partitions that separated the locked side from the unlocked side. and lee was standing there before me on the other side of the glass. mr. dulles. did you have the impression that the officers had told your brother that you were the one who was coming to see him? mr. oswald. no, sir; i did not. mr. dulles. because you just said that the officer said he was ready to see you, and i gained the impression from that---- mr. oswald. yes, sir--whether or not i meant by that that--i do not believe that was my full meaning on that statement, because i was not aware that they had actually told lee that it was me he was about to see. mr. jenner. did you converse with your brother? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i did. mr. jenner. by what means? mr. oswald. by telephone, while looking at him through the glass partition. mr. dulles. how far apart were you, roughly? mr. oswald. just a matter of inches. mr. jenner. how long were you in that room, conversing with your brother? mr. oswald. approximately minutes. mr. jenner. and as near as you can recall, what did he say to you and what did you say to him? mr. oswald. i do recall to the best of my ability his first statement to me was "how are you?" my reply was "i am fine." i asked him how he was--as i observed the cuts and bruises on his face. he said he was just fine, and that they were treating him okay. i believe his next statement was at this time "i cannot or would not say anything because the line is apparently tapped." i did not comment on that, and he rather carried the conversation for or minutes. mr. jenner. would you repeat it to us as best you can recall it, please? mr. oswald. sir, i do not recall this particular part of the conversation. mr. jenner. just do your best. mr. oswald. i am sorry, sir, i just cannot recall that particular part of the conversation. i might comment on that particular part to this extent. that i felt that it was rather a mechanical conversation from his standpoint. he seemed to be speaking very fast, and there was approximately or minutes of him speaking in this nature. then i took the initiative and started speaking to him about the family. mr. jenner. his family? mr. oswald. about the family, including his family, my family. and, also, at this time, when we talked about his family in particular--i believe my question to him was "what about marina and the children?" his reply to me at that time was "don't worry about them. the paines will take care of them"--that his friends, the paines, would take care of them satisfactorily. mr. jenner. that lee's friends, the paines, would take care of them satisfactorily? mr. oswald. that is correct. my reply to him on that was what he considered to be his friends were not mine. mr. jenner. did he respond to that? mr. oswald. not to my recollection, sir. mr. dulles. were you the first member of the family to see him, or had marina seen him the day before? mr. mckenzie. both marina and marguerite had seen him before. mr. oswald. earlier that afternoon, sir. i was the last member of the family to see him. mr. jenner. did you say anything about the new child, rachel? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i did. mr. jenner. did you raise that, or did he? mr. oswald. i believe i did, sir. mr. jenner. what did you say? mr. oswald. i simply stated that i had seen the new baby and was not aware of it at that time. mr. jenner. not aware that the baby had been born? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. did he respond to that? mr. oswald. yes, sir, he did. mr. jenner. what did he say? mr. oswald. he smiled and stated he had hoped for a boy rather than a girl. his further comment was, "well, you know how that goes." mr. jenner. he said nothing, i take it, then, by way of apology or otherwise that you had not theretofore been informed of the birth of this child? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. you record on page of your memorandum--you use this expression: "i was not talking to the lee i knew." do you find that? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i do. mr. jenner. would you read that full sentence? mr. oswald. "he talked about the paines as his friends and that they would take care of marina and the children." excuse me--i started too soon. mr. jenner. that is all right. mr. oswald. "i stated who he considered to be his friends were not necessarily mine. i did this to try to get through to him. to me his answers were mechanical and i was not talking to the lee i knew." mr. jenner. were you able to get through to him? did you feel you got through to him? mr. oswald. no, sir; i was not. mr. jenner. and would you elaborate, please, on your expression "i was not talking to the lee i knew"? mr. oswald. i was referring more specifically to the first part of our conversation, where his conversation seemed to me, as previously stated, very mechanical. mr. jenner. you had the feeling he was not exposing himself fully to you? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. was this the last time you ever saw your brother? mr. oswald. alive, sir? mr. jenner. yes. mr. oswald. yes, sir; it was. mr. jenner. on page you record a later conversation after you had left your brother--you have an expression there along the lines that you agreed with someone that if the conversation had been person to person, that things might have been different. do you find that? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i do. mr. jenner. would you please elaborate on what you meant by that? mr. oswald. by "we" in that paragraph, sir, on page , i am talking about mr. tom kelley, inspector from washington, d.c., united states secret service, and agent, mr. mike howard. our discussion was of the nature--i related to them as best i could remember my entire conversation with lee harvey oswald on that afternoon of november , , and i was of the opinion, or perhaps expressed, either by mr. kelley or mr. mike howard, that had we been placed in a room facing each other, perhaps more could have been learned or something could have been learned about whether or not he was actually guilty or how much he was involved in the assassination of the president of the united states. mr. jenner. could i elaborate on that? if you talked person to person to him in a room, in which there was assurance there was no bugging, nobody listening to your conversation, that you might have been able to obtain more information from him? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. is that a fair summary? mr. oswald. that is, sir. mr. jenner. if you wish him to elaborate or expand or amend that, mr. mckenzie, it is perfectly all right with me. mr. mckenzie. no--that is all right. mr. jenner. does mr. oswald wish to elaborate? mr. oswald. no, sir; i do not. mr. jenner. mr. chairman, i have concluded my examination. on behalf of myself and the staff, i express to mr. oswald and to mr. mckenzie our appreciation for the splendid cooperation that we have received, and the frank and direct answers that the witness has given to all of the questions i have put to him. mr. mckenzie. thank you, sir. mr. dulles. i am very glad that was put on the record. i entirely share it for the commission. mr. oswald. if i could, possibly, sir, at this time---- mr. jenner. would you like to add anything? mr. oswald. i would like to make one little statement in regard to my memorandum, on page . mr. jenner. proceed. mr. oswald. in relation or reference to my intentions at that time, as it is now, as recorded on page , "intentions then as now was to find out the truth and nothing else." thank you. mr. dulles. thank you. i have one question, only one. you testified, i believe, yesterday that when you met your brother at the airport, upon his return from the soviet union, that he seemed somewhat disappointed that the press was not there to meet him and talk with him. do you recall, in your relations with your brother, any other instances where he appeared to desire publicity? mr. oswald. no, sir; it is my opinion that that was the only time that i felt like possibly he did want publicity. at later dates, at my home, in fort worth, tex., where they stayed, on quite a few occasions, either by telephone call or the newspaper reporter actually coming to my home, he stated he did not want to speak to him, and he did not want to see them, and they did not, sir, while he was in the presence of my home. mr. dulles. thank you very much. mr. jenner. may i ask one further thing? what is your religion? mr. oswald. i was raised in the lutheran religion, sir. mr. jenner. and were all three of you boys so reared? mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. were you steady churchgoers? or were you churchgoers at all? mr. oswald. yes, sir, we were. mr. jenner. all three of you? mr. oswald. yes, sir; we were. mr. jenner. i have nothing further. mr. dulles. i want to join mr. jenner in expressing to you and your counsel, mr. mckenzie, our thanks for your full and i believe frank testimony. i think you have been very helpful to us. i wish to thank you for it. mr. oswald. thank you, sir. and we hope that we have been of some help. mr. jenner. you have. mr. mckenzie. i thank you, mr. chairman, for that statement, and likewise, mr. jenner, i appreciate on behalf of myself and mr. oswald your statement for the record. i only have a few brief questions, mr. chairman, if i may, sir. mr. dulles. these are to be put to your client? mr. mckenzie. yes, sir. although i will say this at this time--that the chair has very generously, and mr. jenner likewise, granted me the opportunity to question or ask mr. oswald questions as we proceeded along. robert, there is a contract which has been introduced into the record, and i believe it is commission exhibit no. , which contract is dated december , , and it is signed by marina n. oswald and yourself, and approved as to form by john m. thorne, attorney, and james h. martin. in this contract, it provides that marina oswald has appointed you as an assistant business manager to mr. martin. and in the last paragraph of the contract there is a statement to the effect that she has employed the firm of thorne and leach, attorneys-at-law, and further agreed that their services will be available at all times to yourself and that you will use same as required by you. now, my question to you is this: have you ever at any time employed mr. john m. thorne to represent you? mr. oswald. no, sir; i have not. mr. mckenzie. has mr. thorne ever represented you in any capacity? mr. oswald. no, sir; he has not. mr. mckenzie. all right, sir. mr. dulles. may i just ask one question? mr. mckenzie now is your appointed lawyer? mr. oswald. he is my selected lawyer. mr. mckenzie. did lee harvey oswald ever tell you or advise you, or has marina n. oswald told you of any trips that lee took, or cities that he visited in russia, other than moscow, minsk, or the hunting trip he took while he was in russia reported in your diary? or reported not in your diary, but reported in the letters to you? mr. oswald. no, sir; he did not. mr. mckenzie. do you know of any cities or any places that he might have gone in russia, other than the two cities that i have named, and the hunting trip that he took as reported in the letter to you, which has been introduced into evidence? mr. oswald. no, sir; i am not aware of any other cities. mr. mckenzie. did marina n. oswald have either june oswald, her two-year-old child, or rachel, her infant child, baptized, to your knowledge? mr. oswald. yes, sir; she has. mr. mckenzie. and where was that, sir? mr. oswald. it is my understanding that this took place in dallas, tex., some time in the year of , sir. mr. dulles. you are speaking now of june? mr. oswald. i am speaking now of june. mr. mckenzie. has the baby rachel been baptized as of this time? mr. oswald. not to my knowledge, sir. mr. mckenzie. do you know what faith june was baptized in? by faith i refer to what particular church or denomination. mr. oswald. i believe, sir, this was the greek orthodox church. mr. mckenzie. from your acquaintance with marina oswald, and based on your discussions with her, both in your home and elsewhere, including cemetery visits which you have made with her, do you now consider and believe that marina n. oswald is a christian and believes in the teachings of our lord and savior jesus christ? mr. oswald. i do, sir. mr. mckenzie. has she professed such faith to you? mr. oswald. not directly, sir--only by implication, sir. mr. mckenzie. do you believe or have you formed an opinion now, based on your discussions and observations of marina oswald, as to whether or not marina n. oswald is a communist or a soviet agent, either now or at any time since you met her at dallas, love field, in june of ? mr. oswald. no, sir; i do not believe that she is any of those things. mr. mckenzie. now, do you think she is a communist? mr. oswald. no, sir; i do not. mr. mckenzie. do you have any opinion as to whether or not she is at this time or since she arrived in this country? mr. oswald. i am of the opinion that she is not, based on my observations of her reactions and her conversations with me. mr. mckenzie. mr. oswald, have i or has anyone at any time coached or briefed you--and if you don't understand what i mean by the word "coached" please tell me so--as to what you should testify here before this commission, other than my cautioning you not to speculate or use conjecture? mr. oswald. no, sir; you have not. mr. mckenzie. has anyone? mr. oswald. no, sir; they have not. mr. mckenzie. have you told the commission---- mr. jenner. excuse me--that anyone includes any member of the staff of this commission? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. mckenzie. and likewise it includes, does it not, any member of the fbi, or the secret service or any other federal agency? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. mckenzie. and the same would apply to any state agency of texas? mr. oswald. sir, that would apply to anybody, no matter what his position with any government agency or individual. mr. mckenzie. now, have you told the commission during the hearings here, since you have been testifying, only the facts as you knew them, or the facts as you know them now? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. mckenzie. and have you expressed opinions or speculated only when the commission or mr. jenner or myself have asked you to do so? mr. oswald. yes, sir, i have. mr. mckenzie. have you testified, mr. oswald, truthfully to the best of your recollection in each instance? mr. oswald. yes, sir, i have. mr. mckenzie. and in the event you have inadvertently made any mistake on dates, addresses, or facts, do you now ask the chairman's permission to change your answer and correct any mistakes which you might have made in the event a mistake is at any time hereafter called to your attention? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i do so. mr. dulles. well, could i supplement that? in the event that you, yourself, find any mistakes--i think you said if it was called to his attention---- mr. mckenzie. yes, sir. mr. oswald. yes, sir, i certainly will. mr. dulles. may i just add here--i hope that that will be looked over, the record will be looked over fairly promptly, so that we can make any corrections within a reasonable length of time. mr. mckenzie. yes, sir; as soon as we receive it, mr. chairman, we will do so. mr. jenner. may i say in that connection, mr. mckenzie, if you could have him dictate that tape covering his memorandum, we can perhaps actually incorporate that in the record, which you will receive. mr. mckenzie. we cannot do it today, because we won't get to dallas until late this evening. and i am going to church tomorrow and teach sunday school and be with my children. mr. oswald. and i with mine, sir. mr. mckenzie. i will make arrangements the first of the week to have it done. mr. jenner. send it to mr. rankin. mr. mckenzie. i shall. if you receive from any source any further documentary information or any type of information which might be considered as evidence by this commission, do you now ask the commission's approval and permission to deliver such documents or information, if any, to the fbi, so that the information may be immediately forwarded to the commission to assist in preparing its final report? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i do. mr. dulles. is that satisfactory to you, mr. jenner? mr. jenner. yes, sir. mr. mckenzie. likewise, do you authorize me to deliver any like information or documents which i may receive, discover or otherwise have in my possession to the same agencies for the same purpose? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i most certainly do. mr. jenner. here, again, mr. mckenzie, if anything is delivered, would you have it delivered to mr. rankin, rather than to me? mr. mckenzie. yes, sir. have you ever applied for relief, unemployment compensation, or any other form of welfare aid? mr. oswald. no, sir; i have not. mr. mckenzie. and i refer there, sir, to both the federal government aid programs and likewise any aid program of the state of texas or the state of louisiana. mr. oswald. that is correct--or any other state of the united states. mr. mckenzie. i believe that you have previously testified to this, but i want to make it absolutely clear. do you now believe that lee harvey oswald was at any time an agent of any agency of the united states government, from the time that he departed for russia, until the day of his death on november , ? mr. oswald. i do not believe that he was an agent of any government. mr. mckenzie. prior to november , , did you know of any activities of lee harvey oswald relative to the fair play for cuba committee or his arrest in new orleans, la.? mr. oswald. no, sir, i did not. mr. mckenzie. mr. oswald, what has been your position insofar as the press is concerned, since the unfortunate and tragic happenings of november , ? mr. oswald. my position with any news media, whether it be the newspapers, magazines, television, et cetera, has been that--no comment, and the only comment i ever made to any of them, at a very early date, was that i would abide by the decision of the commission which is now known as the warren committee. mr. mckenzie. have you ever sought to elaborate or give any statement to the press at any time? mr. oswald. no, sir; i have not. mr. mckenzie. do you recall any statements made by marina n. oswald expressing sympathy for president's family? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i do. mr. mckenzie. and if you will, state the source of your recollection and where the statement was made, and if she has ever made any statement to that effect to yourself. mr. oswald. yes, sir; she did make a statement directly to myself. to the best of my recollection, this was first done on monday, november , , at the inn of the six flags, at arlington, tex., as marina and myself observed the beginning of the funeral for the president of the united states. mr. mckenzie. and was there anyone else present at that time? mr. oswald. yes, sir; there were other people in the room. whether or not they overheard our conversation, i do not know, sir. mr. dulles. you observed that on television, i gather? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. mckenzie. were there any secret service agents there at that time? mr. oswald. yes, sir. mr. mckenzie. were they in the room with you and marina oswald? mr. oswald. yes, sir; they were. mr. mckenzie. and did they overhear any expressions of sympathy which she might have said? mr. oswald. it is possible that they did, sir. mr. mckenzie. have you ever testified in a lawsuit or given a deposition before a court reporter prior to your appearance before this commission? mr. oswald. no, sir; i have not. mr. mckenzie. now, you have testified that you have not given any statements to the press other than the statement to the effect that you would abide with and be satisfied with the report of this commission. since arriving in washington, and since you have been sworn under oath before the commission, have you given any statement to the press, other than saying goodnight, or good afternoon, or good morning? mr. oswald. i believe at one time i did say thank you. other than that, sir, i have not. mr. mckenzie. now, have you read an article here in the new york times of saturday, february , , on page of the first section, entitled, "russian training of oswald hinted"? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i have. mr. mckenzie. do you know mr. anthony lewis? mr. oswald. no, sir; i do not. mr. mckenzie. all right, sir. have you ever talked with mr. lewis? mr. oswald. no, sir; not to my knowledge. mr. mckenzie. now, you have testified this afternoon following our lunch break that you visited lee oswald in the dallas county jail. do you recall that testimony--the testimony of just a few minutes ago? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i do. mr. mckenzie. have you previously testified to that before the commission, to your recollection? mr. oswald. to my recollection, i believe we at least touched on that during our first session on february , . mr. mckenzie. when you were in the jail--and i believe it is in the sixth floor of the dallas county jail--i mean the dallas city jail--talking with your brother, lee harvey oswald, did you ask him at that time if he had committed the crime? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i had. mr. mckenzie. you did ask him that question? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i did. mr. mckenzie. and what did he say? mr. oswald. i put it to him as stated in my diary, sir. mr. jenner. identify the page, please. mr. oswald. on page , "i do not recall everything he said. i did try to point out to him that the evidence was overwhelming that he did kill police officer tippit and possibly the president. to this he replied 'do not form any opinion on the so-called evidence.'" mr. jenner. is that all he said? he said nothing else? mr. oswald. to that---- mr. jenner. in response to you? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. at no time when you interviewed him over the telephone while you were in that--the sixth floor--did he affirmatively deny either that he had shot officer tippit or that he shot the president? mr. oswald. he did not admit to anything whatsoever. mr. jenner. nor did he deny it affirmatively--other than the remark that you have recorded in your memorandum? mr. oswald. that is correct, sir. mr. mckenzie. in other words, mr. oswald, when you were talking there with your brother, in the city jail of dallas, he did not deny that he had killed officer tippit, nor did he deny that he had assassinated president kennedy? mr. oswald. he did not admit to anything, sir. mr. mckenzie. and he didn't deny anything? mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. mckenzie. have you, or haven't you told this commission that you believed a denial? mr. jenner. excuse me, mr. mckenzie, i don't understand that question. mr. mckenzie. it says in this article that he told the commission that he believed the denial. since there was no denial, there was nothing for you to believe. mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. up to this moment he has never testified as to that, to my recollection. mr. mckenzie. that is correct. again, based on the evidence that you have read or heard in newspaper articles, whether it be evidence or not, but based on everything that you have heard or read, you now believe that your brother, lee harvey oswald, did kill mr. tippit and assassinated president kennedy, is that correct? mr. oswald. purely on the circumstantial evidence that has been brought to my attention or that i have read. mr. mckenzie. i believe that is all, mr. chairman. mr. jenner. may i ask one question? mr. oswald, until this afternoon, when you recalled orally here the circumstances and the event of your discussion with your brother on the sixth floor of the dallas--is that dallas county? mr. mckenzie. no; it is dallas city jail. mr. jenner. dallas city jail--had i had any conversation with you at all on that subject? mr. oswald. none that i recall, sir. mr. jenner. thank you. mr. mckenzie. that is all, mr. chairman. mr. dulles. that will then conclude the testimony of mr. robert oswald, with the understanding that the commission might later wish to recall him if any facts are adduced that would make that desirable. mr. mckenzie. mr. dulles--is he now released from his oath to the commission, subject to recall and being resworn? mr. dulles. that is correct. mr. jenner. that is correct. that is my understanding. in any event, i so agree, mr. chairman. mr. mckenzie. thank you, sir. i would like to state to the commission one further thing, mr. dulles, if i may. we very much appreciate, and by "we" i mean myself as counsel, and mr. oswald as a witness, the manner in which the commission and its counsel have conducted the interrogation of mr. oswald. we further appreciate the opportunity to be in washington and to be heard, and hope that in some manner that we may assist in shedding some light that will assist this commission in making its final report, and that the true facts of this situation will be known to the president of the united states to use at his discretion. mr. dulles. thank you very much, mr. mckenzie. mr. jenner. may i ask one more question? up until this afternoon when i questioned you, possibly there might have been a question this morning on the subject of any opinion which you might have held dealing with whether your brother did or did not participate in the shooting of officer tippit or the assassination of president kennedy, had i had any conversation with you on that subject? mr. oswald. yes, sir; i believe you had. mr. jenner. when was that? mr. oswald. i believe this was on the first session, during the first session on wednesday, february , . mr. jenner. was it in this room? mr. oswald. yes, sir; it was. mr. jenner. that is all i meant. i had no separate--no conversation with you on the subject other than as i might have put a question to you in the presence of the commission. mr. oswald. that is correct. mr. jenner. thank you. mr. dulles. and a part of the record. mr. jenner. and as part of the record; yes, sir. mr. dulles. we will adjourn. (whereupon, at : p.m., the president's commission recessed.) _thursday, february , _ testimony of james herbert martin the president's commission met : a.m. on february , , at maryland avenue ne., washington, d.c. present were chief justice earl warren, chairman; senator john sherman cooper, representative hale boggs, representative gerald r. ford, and allen w. dulles, members. also present were j. lee rankin, general counsel; norman redlich, assistant counsel; paul w. leech, counsel to james herbert martin; charles murray and charles rhyne, observers; and dean robert g. storey, special counsel to the attorney general of texas. the chairman. the commission will be in order. let the record show that mr. martin, first that commissioners dulles and ford and i are present. mr. martin, the witness, is here with his lawyer; would you state your name for the record, please? mr. leech. paul leech. the chairman. mr. leech, i understand you are a partner of mr. thorne who was here representing mrs. oswald. mr. leech. yes, sir. the chairman. gentlemen, i will just read an opening statement to you that we make for the record and for the benefit of the witness each time we convene. on november , , president lyndon b. johnson issued executive order no. appointing a commission "to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of the late president john f. kennedy, and the subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination." on december , , congress adopted joint resolution s.j. which authorizes the commission, or any member of the commission, or any agent or agency designated by the commission for such purpose, to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, and receive evidence. on january , , the commission adopted a resolution authorizing each member of the commission and its general counsel, j. lee rankin, to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, and receive evidence. on january , , the commission adopted a resolution authorizing each member of the commission and its general counsel, j. lee rankin, to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, and receive evidence concerning any matter under investigation by the commission. the purpose of this hearing is to take the testimony of mr. james herbert martin who has acted as the business manager of mrs. marina oswald, the widow of lee harvey oswald, who, prior to his death, was charged with the assassination of president kennedy. in view of mr. martin's close association with mrs. oswald it is the intention of this commission to ask mr. martin questions concerning this association and any and all matters related to the assassination, and to the subsequent killing of lee harvey oswald. mr. martin has been furnished with a copy of this statement and a copy of the rules adopted by the commission for the taking of testimony or the production of evidence. mr. martin has also been furnished with a copy of executive order no. and congressional resolution s.j. res. which set forth the general scope of the commission's inquiry and its authority for the examining of witnesses and the receiving of evidence. i should also like to read into the record at this time a copy of a letter dated february , , to mr. martin from mr. j. lee rankin, general counsel of the commission, which reads as follows: "dear mr. martin: "confirming discussions between the staff of this commission and john m. thorne, esquire, your counsel, we hereby request that you appear before this commission at : a.m., on february , , at room , maryland avenue, ne., washington, d.c., for the purpose of giving sworn testimony concerning your association with mrs. marina oswald and your knowledge of the facts relating to the assassination of president kennedy and the subsequent killing of lee harvey oswald. "you are hereby requested to produce before this commission at that time any and all books, records, papers, notes, and documents pertaining to your association with marina oswald and your knowledge of the facts relating to the assassination of president kennedy and the subsequent killing of lee harvey oswald including, but not limited to, those books, records, papers, notes, and documents pertaining to ( ) your business dealings with marina oswald, ( ) your activities as marina oswald's business representative, ( ) marina oswald's business dealings with others, ( ) your dealings with marina oswald in connection with the preparation of any testimony, interviews, public appearances, story, article, or other narrative concerning her personal history or the assassination of president kennedy and the killing of lee harvey oswald, and ( ) your dealings with marina oswald in connection with her appearance before this commission. "the commission is authorized to reimburse you for your expenses in connection with your appearance before the commission, and the necessary details will be arranged when you are here. "attached herewith are copies of executive order no. , dated november , , s.j. res. -- th cong., st session, and the rules of this commission in connection with hearings conducted for the purpose of taking of testimony or the production of evidence." i assume, gentlemen, you did receive a copy of that letter? mr. leech. yes, we did. the chairman. i will not be able to be here at all times today because we have, we are hearing arguments in the court at o'clock and i must leave to be there, but mr. dulles anticipates being here all day so in my absence he will conduct hearings. congressman ford has some unfinished business at the congress as i have at the court so he probably will not be here all through the day. mr. martin, will you please rise and be sworn? do you solemnly swear in this proceeding before the commission to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. martin. i do. mr. leech. your honor, who are these other gentlemen here. i haven't been introduced to them. the chairman. this is mr. charles rhyne, who represents the american bar association. mr. leech. former president of the american bar association? the chairman. yes, and mr. murray who is also in the public defender's office of the district of columbia. mr. rankin. he represents mr. walter craig, too. the chairman. he and mr. rhyne represent mr. walter craig. mr. leech. who is that? mr. rankin. mr. craig is the president of the bar association and was asked to act in order to protect or advise the commission as to any interests of lee h. oswald because of--you probably saw the notice in the paper and so forth. mr. leech. you represent the man from arizona? mr. rhyne. walter e. craig, president of the american bar association. mr. rankin. mr. storey is the representative of the attorney general of texas. mr. leech. he is dean of the southern methodist law school. mr. rankin. yes. the chairman. of course, this is professor redlich of our staff. and this is the reporter. all right, mr. rankin will conduct the examination. will you proceed, mr. rankin? mr. rankin. mr. leech, does the reporter have your full name? mr. leech. yes, sir; he does. mr. rankin. mr. martin, will you tell us your name, please? mr. martin. james herbert martin. mr. rankin. where do you live? mr. martin. dallas, tex. mr. rankin. how long have you lived there? mr. martin. since . mr. rankin. what is your occupation? mr. martin. hotel executive. mr. rankin. are you now connected with the six flags motel? mr. martin. no. mr. rankin. were you at one time? mr. martin. yes. mr. rankin. and during what period? mr. martin. from may of until january , . mr. rankin. what was your position with that institution? mr. martin. resident manager. mr. rankin. while you were at the six flags inn, did you become acquainted with marina oswald? mr. martin. yes. mr. rankin. about when was the first time that you met her? mr. martin. i guess it was november . mr. rankin. of what year? mr. martin. . mr. rankin. and will you tell us how that acquaintance started? mr. martin. well, i was called by the tarrant county sheriff on sunday. mr. rankin. who was that? mr. martin. lew evans. mr. rankin. yes. mr. martin. about o'clock in the morning, and they wanted a room where they could question the oswald family. i told them they could have it, and about four o'clock, i guess, four or four-thirty, i don't know the exact time they came in with the whole family, and we gave them several rooms to accommodate the family. mr. rankin. were you introduced to marina oswald at that time? mr. martin. well, i don't believe i was ever really introduced to her. mr. rankin. how did you come to know her then? mr. martin. well, just through association. mr. rankin. i see. did you know the county sheriff before that? mr. martin. vaguely, not to any great extent. mr. rankin. do you know of any particular reason why he chose your establishment? mr. martin. because of the central location between dallas and fort worth and the isolation of it. mr. rankin. at that time who came to stay with you at the six flags inn, marina and some of her family? mr. martin. well, marina and the two children and robert and marguerite oswald. mr. rankin. did they have several suites there? mr. martin. they had one room, well, one suite, room and and then we gave them two other rooms for the secret service. mr. rankin. did anyone make arrangements with you besides the county sheriff about how this would be handled? mr. martin. yes, secret service. mr. rankin. who, for the secret service? mr. martin. let's see, charles kunkel, and howard--i can't remember his first name. mr. rankin. secret service man? mr. martin. yes. mr. rankin. where was this arrangement made? mr. martin. well, down in the room in the suite. mr. rankin. there at the six flags inn? mr. martin. yes. mr. rankin. and the three of you were there together, were you? mr. martin. yes, there were also arlington police officers and several other secret service men. mr. rankin. who participated in the conversation? mr. martin. well, i don't know who else was in the conversation. it was primarily between kunkel and howard and myself. mr. rankin. what was said in regard to this arrangement at that time? mr. martin. well, they said that they would need these rooms to accommodate the family and they had no idea how long they would need it. mr. rankin. was anything said about the price and who would make payment? mr. martin. yes. they said that the government would take care of the room rate on it. mr. rankin. did you have to submit this matter to any of your superiors or did you make the decision at that time? mr. martin. no, i made the decision. mr. rankin. had you had any prior dealings with the secret service people before that? mr. martin. no. mr. rankin. how long did marguerite oswald stay there? mr. martin. i believe she left on friday. mr. rankin. what day? mr. martin. or maybe thursday. would be the th or th, i am not certain as to the exact date. mr. rankin. do you recall any incidents where marguerite oswald sought to leave prior to the thursday or friday that she left? mr. martin. no, i don't recall anything like that. mr. rankin. have you ever assisted the local police officers in any other way at your six flags inn before that? mr. martin. yes. mr. rankin. in a general way what was the nature of that assistance. mr. martin. well, of course, i can't recall any specific instances. i know we cooperate with the law enforcement officers in anything they have to ask us, and we cooperate with them, giving them information. i don't know of any particular incidents other than---- mr. rankin. would you describe briefly just where these rooms were in your inn and where the secret service were compared with marina oswald's rooms? mr. martin. well, marina oswald was in rooms and , which were connecting rooms, and the rooms faced away from the entrance to the motel. and then the secret service had and also. they were rooms next door to it, but not connecting. mr. rankin. after marina first came there did the secret service have someone on duty while she was at the six flags? mr. martin. yes. mr. rankin. all the time? mr. martin. yes. mr. rankin. do you recall who that was? mr. martin. let's see--well, i remember his first name now, mike howard, and charles kunkel, lee gopadze was there part of the time. they seemed to change quite frequently. mr. rankin. did they have someone there hours of the day? mr. martin. yes, sir. mr. rankin. during this early period did you ever talk to marina? mr. martin. no, except to say hello. mr. rankin. do you know whether she talked english much at that time? mr. martin. from all appearances, she didn't. mr. rankin. did anyone visit you while she was there at the six flags during this early period that you recall? mr. martin. not to my knowledge other than the fbi. mr. rankin. did you invite marina and her family to come to your home for thanksgiving? mr. martin. yes. mr. rankin. will you tell us how that happened? mr. martin. well, it just happened. i don't know, i think i asked robert if he would like to come out for dinner, thanksgiving dinner. they weren't going to have a very happy thanksgiving, and living in those rooms was pretty cramped. mr. rankin. when was this that you asked robert? mr. martin. i believe on wednesday. mr. rankin. did you include robert and his wife as well as marina and her family in the invitation? mr. martin. well, robert's wife wasn't there, but i included robert. he came out to the house also. mr. rankin. did marina then come to your house for thanksgiving? mr. martin. yes. mr. rankin. who all came at that time? mr. martin. let's see, there were marina and june lee, and robert, charlie kunkel, and one arlington police officer. i don't recall his name. mr. rankin. what time of the day did they come? mr. martin. i believe it was or o'clock in the afternoon. mr. rankin. did you invite marguerite oswald to thanksgiving dinner at that time, too? mr. martin. no. mr. rankin. did you say anything to her about it? mr. martin. no. as i recall i just asked, i believe i just asked robert if they would like to come, they were welcome if they would like to come. mr. rankin. you mean by that that you included marguerite oswald in your invitation? mr. martin. i don't think i named her. i don't know if she had left by then. mr. rankin. you didn't deliberately exclude her from the invitation? mr. martin. no. mr. rankin. then did you at some time discuss with marina the possibility of her staying at your home rather than at the six flags inn? mr. martin. no, i discussed it with secret service first. mr. rankin. when was that? mr. martin. thursday or friday. mr. rankin. before this thanksgiving dinner or afterwards? mr. martin. i don't recall. i know the secret service made a statement that they were quite concerned as to where marina would go after she left the inn. they had no place to put her and they had no idea where she was going to go. mr. rankin. do you recall when they made that statement? mr. martin. no, it was wednesday or thursday. mr. rankin. at that time did you say anything about that? mr. martin. i told them that if they couldn't find any place for her that i would be glad to take them into my home. mr. rankin. was anything said about what compensation you would receive for that? mr. martin. no. there was no compensation considered. mr. rankin. you didn't suggest any and they didn't, is that right? mr. martin. that is correct. mr. rankin. did you discuss that idea with marina at all? mr. martin. no. they, the secret service told robert about it, and---- mr. rankin. how do you know that? mr. martin. because he told me they had. and then robert thanked me and said that it would work out all right. mr. rankin. before you made that suggestion had you had any discussions about selling any rights to marina's stories or anything of that character? mr. martin. no. mr. rankin. with any media? mr. martin. no. mr. rankin. how did you happen to make this offer? mr. martin. i felt sorry for her. mr. rankin. did you limit the offer to marina and her children? mr. martin. yes. mr. rankin. was there any talk at that time about robert living at your home, too? mr. martin. no. mr. rankin. anything about marguerite living there? mr. martin. no. mr. rankin. did you discuss this proposal with your wife before you made it? mr. martin. no. mr. rankin. could you describe for the commission briefly your home, how the layout of it was? mr. martin. well, it is a three-bedroom house, with a living room, dining room, den and kitchen, two baths. mr. rankin. all of it on the same floor? mr. martin. yes. mr. rankin. could you give us an idea of where the bedrooms were from the rest of the house? mr. martin. well, as you come in the front door you go through one end of the living room, and then into a hallway, and the bedrooms are along the hall. mr. rankin. and is yours and mrs. martin's bedroom at the end of the hall? mr. martin. yes. mr. rankin. does it have a private bath associated with that suite? mr. martin. yes. mr. rankin. and all of the rooms of the house are on one floor, is that right? mr. martin. yes. mr. rankin. and then where was marina's bedroom from yours? mr. martin. the next room. mr. rankin. and where was the bath that she used? mr. martin. right across the hall from it. mr. rankin. and then after marina's room right next to hers? mr. martin. is a children's bedroom. mr. rankin. that was the closest one to the living room, is that right? mr. martin. yes. mr. rankin. about how large was your bedroom? mr. martin. i think it is about by, maybe by , . mr. rankin. how large was marina's room? mr. martin. about by . mr. rankin. and the children's room? mr. martin. about the same size. mr. rankin. what children do you have? mr. martin. i have a -year-old boy and a -year-old boy and a -year-old girl. mr. rankin. and they are all living at home? mr. martin. yes. mr. rankin. and they have been throughout this period, have they? mr. martin. yes. mr. rankin. had you discussed the assassination with marina at all prior to the time she came to live with you? mr. martin. no. mr. rankin. had you discussed any financial arrangements with her or the idea that you should manage her affairs before she came to live with you? mr. martin. no. mr. rankin. when did the donations for marina and her children start to come in, do you recall the date? mr. martin. no. mr. rankin. was it before she came to live with you? mr. martin. not to my knowledge, i didn't--i think it started after she came into the house. the chairman. mr. rankin, if you will excuse me now, gentlemen, i am going to retire to my court work and mr. dulles, will you conduct the hearing? if you are still in session i will be here this afternoon to see you, if not, gentlemen, i am very glad to have seen you, both of you. give mr. thorne my regards, please. (at this point, the chief justice warren left the hearing room.) mr. dulles. will you proceed, please. mr. rankin. when did the idea of your being marina's business manager first come up. mr. martin. it was after the first of december. she had been there about or days, i guess. mr. rankin. that is ? mr. martin. . mr. rankin. will you tell us how it came up? mr. martin. one of the secret service agents suggested that i get an attorney for marina. mr. rankin. who was that? mr. martin. lee gopadze. mr. rankin. where did this conversation occur? mr. martin. in the den. mr. rankin. who was there? mr. martin. i think marina was there. mr. rankin. anyone else? mr. martin. not to my knowledge. mr. rankin. about what time of the day, do you recall? mr. martin. no. mr. rankin. mr. gopadze made this suggestion, he made it to you, did he? mr. martin. yes. mr. rankin. did he say that in english? mr. martin. yes. mr. rankin. did you know whether marina understood it? mr. martin. well, he had discussed it with her. mr. rankin. how do you know? mr. martin. well, he was talking about it to her about something in russian. mr. rankin. and then he turned to you, did he? mr. martin. yes. mr. rankin. did he say anything about who you should get as a lawyer for her? mr. martin. no. mr. rankin. what did you say about that? mr. martin. well, i told him i would be happy to get one for her. mr. rankin. did you do that? mr. martin. yes. john thorne. mr. rankin. how did you happen to select john thorne? mr. martin. i had known him from association at the inn. mr. rankin. had he ever acted as your attorney? mr. martin. no. mr. rankin. what was the nature of your acquaintance with him? mr. martin. just a passing acquaintance. mr. rankin. did you discuss with marina the qualifications of this attorney? mr. martin. no. mr. rankin. did you say anything about it to mr. gopadze? mr. martin. i, like i probably mentioned, john had handled some movie work and he would probably know something about the area in which we were talking. mr. rankin. after you had made the suggestion of mr. thorne as a lawyer did you do anything about it? mr. martin. i called mr. thorne. mr. rankin. on the telephone? mr. martin. yes. mr. rankin. and then what happened? mr. martin. he came over, i believe, the next day and talked to marina and lee gopadze and myself. mr. rankin. how did he talk to marina? mr. martin. well, through lee gopadze. mr. rankin. as an interpreter? mr. martin. as an interpreter. mr. rankin. mr. gopadze is fluent in both russian and english? mr. martin. yes. mr. rankin. could you tell what mr. gopadze said to marina? mr. martin. no. mr. rankin. did you discuss the nature of this retainer with mr. thorne at that time? mr. martin. i don't understand the question. mr. rankin. did you discuss what he would be doing if he was employed as her lawyer? mr. martin. handling all her legal work. mr. rankin. did you tell him that? mr. martin. yes. mr. rankin. and did you say anything about what the legal work would involve, the kind of work it would be? mr. martin. i don't believe so at the time. i may have mentioned something about her story or something like that. i don't recall the conversation. mr. rankin. was anything said about the donations at that time? mr. martin. no. mr. rankin. did you discuss what he would be paid by way of compensation? mr. martin. not at that time. it was later. mr. rankin. was anything said by you or mr. thorne about his qualifications to act as her attorney? mr. martin. not that i recall. mr. rankin. were formal arrangements made about the employment of mr. thorne as counsel for marina? mr. martin. yes. mr. rankin. when was that done? mr. martin. i believe that was december . mr. rankin. do you recall anything else that was said or done at this conversation when mr. thorne came over and talked to marina through the interpreter and you were present? mr. martin. no. mr. rankin. was there a formal contract executed between marina and mr. thorne at some time? mr. martin. yes. mr. rankin. you think that was december to your recollection. mr. martin. either the th or the th. mr. rankin. now, before that contract was executed did you discuss it with mr. thorne? mr. martin. yes. mr. rankin. was marina present when you did? mr. martin. i don't believe so. mr. rankin. where did this discussion occur? mr. martin. i believe it was at the inn. mr. rankin. your office? mr. martin. no, in the coffee shoppe. mr. rankin. who else was present. mr. martin. no one. mr. rankin. did you then go over the terms of the contract with him? mr. martin. no. i think i left that up to him. mr. rankin. were you then the manager of marina's affairs? mr. martin. no. mr. rankin. who were you acting for in regard to that arrangement? mr. martin. well, acting for marina although i had no--i had no contract to that effect. mr. rankin. you were still acting under this suggestion by mr. gopadze that some counsel be gotten for her? mr. martin. yes. mr. rankin. and you did go over the terms of this contract at that time, did you? mr. martin. yes. mr. rankin. did you make any suggestions for changes? mr. martin. that we delete it, on my contract, we deleted any gifts or contributions. mr. rankin. that is on the draft of the contract for you to act as manager? mr. martin. yes. mr. rankin. and when did that idea of your acting as manager come up? mr. martin. well, i believe it was the same day that john thorne came out to talk to marina and to gopadze. mr. rankin. do you know who brought it up? mr. martin. no. mr. rankin. did you suggest that you act as manager? mr. martin. i don't believe i suggested it. we were discussing the need for a manager, and i don't know who brought it up as far as my being the one. mr. rankin. at that time was there any discussion about what compensation you would have? mr. martin. no. mr. rankin. when you were talking to mr. thorne in the coffee shoppe was there a discussion about how much compensation he would receive for acting as attorney? mr. martin. yes. mr. rankin. what was said about that? mr. martin. well, just that it would be percent. mr. rankin. had you ever discussed that before with him? mr. martin. not that i recall. (at this point, senator cooper entered the hearing room.) mr. dulles. senator, we welcome you. senator cooper. thank you. mr. dulles. would you proceed? would you just resume for a moment where we are in the proceedings? mr. rankin. we are discussing the contract between mr. martin and marina and also how mr. thorne became counsel under the contracts that were made. senator cooper. yes. mr. rankin. this -percent figure for john thorne and the contract with regard to his appointment then was his suggestion so far as you know? mr. martin. as far as i know. i think we had discussed it. mr. rankin. you had discussed it? mr. martin. i don't know exactly how we came to these figures as far as that is concerned. mr. rankin. but you think you had discussed it before the meeting at the coffee shoppe that you described? mr. martin. probably so. mr. rankin. did you suggest the amount? mr. martin. i don't know. mr. rankin. you don't recall whether you did or he did? mr. martin. no. mr. rankin. did you talk that over with marina? mr. martin. yes. mr. rankin. who was present at that time? mr. martin. i believe lee gopadze. mr. rankin. anyone else? mr. martin. well, there were several times we discussed it with marina. one time robert was there. he read the contracts. let's see, he usually came in on sunday so he read the contracts more at length. mr. rankin. did robert come in before or after your conversation in the coffee shoppe that you referred to? mr. martin. i believe after. mr. rankin. after you had the conversation in the coffee shoppe with mr. thorne, did you make any changes in the draft of the contract. mr. martin. yes. mr. leech. excuse me, what contract are you talking about? mr. rankin. thorne contract. were you referring to the thorne contract? mr. martin. yes. mr. rankin. what changes did you make at that time? mr. martin. we deleted gifts, contributions. he used a standard contractual form, and in that contractual form it includes gifts and contributions, and we deleted those. mr. rankin. i hand you exhibit no. and ask you if that is a photostat copy of the contract you have been referring to? mr. martin. yes. mr. rankin. and it has stricken out the words that you have just described with regard to donations and gifts? mr. martin. yes. mr. rankin. it does give him an interest in collections, trust funds and bequests, according to the language of this exhibit no. . do you know what was meant by that? mr. martin. no. that was in the standard contract that this was drawn from. mr. rankin. did you ever discuss this contract, exhibit no. , with marina oswald? mr. martin. yes, with mr. thorne and robert oswald present. mr. rankin. when was that? mr. martin. between the st and the th of december . i can't recall the dates. mr. rankin. do you remember where you were when you had that discussion? mr. martin. at the house, my home. mr. rankin. what did you say to marina about it? mr. martin. i don't recall any conversation at all. mr. rankin. was anything said about the percent at that time? mr. martin. well, she knew it was percent. mr. rankin. how do you know she knew that? mr. martin. well, we explained it to her. mr. rankin. who explained it? mr. martin. i don't know whether i did or whether john thorne did or robert. mr. rankin. did she understand english enough to understand what you were talking about? mr. martin. yes. mr. rankin. how do you know that? mr. martin. because of her reaction to it. mr. rankin. did she react about the percent? mr. martin. no. i mean there was no reaction as far as her, a definite reaction but i could tell she understood it. mr. rankin. can you tell us what you observed about her that caused you to think that she understood it? mr. martin. well, i don't know. i think it was explained to her as cents of a dollar. mr. rankin. was anything---- mr. martin. but she said she understood percents. mr. rankin. how did she say that? mr. martin. that way. "i understand percents" or something of that type. mr. rankin. was there any discussion with marina about the effect of this contract on donations and contributions from the public? mr. martin. yes. we said that that would not be included in that percent. mr. rankin. did you say anything to marina about whether this was a good contract for her? mr. martin. i probably did. mr. rankin. do you recall what you said? mr. martin. no. mr. rankin. you have no recollection about that? mr. martin. no. actually we left most of it up to robert. mr. rankin. so whatever explanation was made to marina was really made by robert, is that right? mr. leech. excuse me for just a minute. (discussion off the record.) mr. rankin. back on the record. mr. leech. mr. martin's contract and robert had a contract with her, too, and mr. thorne's contract were left with her. they were not signed that day. mr. rankin. you tell us what you know about that, mr. martin. mr. martin. well, robert wanted to read over the contracts and think them over, and i believe he took copies of them. now, i am not sure, i am not certain, about that. mr. rankin. when did robert get involved here, of getting a share? mr. martin. from the beginning. mr. rankin. were you present when that matter came up? mr. martin. yes. that was marina's request that he participate. mr. rankin. when was that request made? mr. martin. prior to the signing of the contracts, probably december -- d or th. mr. rankin. who was present at that time? mr. martin. i believe john thorne and robert, marina and myself. mr. rankin. what did marina say about that at that time? mr. martin. she wanted robert to have some of the money. mr. rankin. what did robert say about that? mr. martin. as i recall he didn't say much of anything. mr. rankin. did he say anything to indicate that he thought that was a good idea, a bad idea? mr. martin. no. i think he said, "thank you," that is about it. mr. rankin. did marina say anything about how much she wanted robert to get? mr. martin. yes. mr. rankin. what did she say about that? mr. martin. ten percent. mr. rankin. she just said percent, is that all? mr. martin. yes. mr. rankin. did marina make any explanation of how she decided that robert should get a share, too? mr. martin. no, other than she wanted to give robert something. representative ford. may i ask a question? mr. rankin. surely. representative ford. was there any discussion at any time, mr. martin, as to whether marguerite should have any benefits from it? mr. martin. no. mr. rankin. did marina discuss with you at that time what robert was to do for his percent? mr. martin. no. mr. rankin. do you recall any discussion about what you were to do for your share? mr. martin. yes, to sell her story. mr. rankin. and what would mr. thorne do for his percent? mr. martin. handle all the legal work involved. mr. rankin. did you ever hear any discussion about what robert was to do for his percentage? mr. martin. we said that--let's see--we would discuss with him on various occasions any of these contracts, but that he was--he would take over the handling of marina's affairs in case of my disability. mr. leech. off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. rankin. was there anything more said than you have related about what robert would do for his share? mr. martin. no. i think i probably remarked to him that there would probably be plenty for him to do. mr. rankin. was there any dispute between any of you or with marina at this time about the percentages? mr. martin. no. the only thing that i recall was the terms of the contract, of my contract. mr. rankin. was something said about that? mr. martin. was years. mr. rankin. yes. mr. martin. and marina thought that was too long. mr. rankin. what did she say about that? mr. martin. she said she thought years was too long. mr. rankin. what did you say? mr. martin. let's see, she wanted a year contract and i told her that actually year, there is no telling how this story would develop or anything, and that year might interfere with the sale of the story. mr. rankin. what did she say to that? mr. martin. that they agreed to it. mr. rankin. she agreed then to the years? mr. martin. yes. mr. rankin. was any interpreter present at that time? mr. martin. no. mr. rankin. so whatever marina understood about was from her understanding of english and communication with you and robert and mr. thorne? mr. martin. well, lee gopadze had discussed it prior to that. mr. rankin. was that in your presence? mr. martin. no. he just discussed it, the general terms, i assume. mr. rankin. but you don't know. mr. martin. of course. i couldn't understand what he was saying. we left the contracts with her for several days. mr. rankin. but you don't know what was done with them? mr. martin. no. mr. rankin. because you weren't present. do you know whether she understood english enough to read those contracts at that time? mr. martin. no. she couldn't have read the contracts at that time. but she said she understood it sufficiently, and that she would trust robert's judgment on it. mr. rankin. when did she say that? mr. martin. just before--i guess the same day she signed it. mr. rankin. i will ask you to look at exhibit no. and tell us whether you recognize the signatures on that? mr. martin. yes. mr. rankin. whose signatures are they? mr. martin. mrs. marina n. oswald and james h. martin. mr. rankin. in the parts that are stricken out---- mr. martin. john m. thorne. mr. rankin. on exhibit no. were those stricken out before the discussion of the contract? mr. martin. yes. mr. rankin. was that done when you were there? mr. martin. yes. mr. rankin. did you observe the signing? mr. martin. yes. mr. leech. they were not signed the date it says they were signed. mr. martin. on the th. mr. leech. the date it says they were signed that is the date they were drawn up but they were all signed the same time, weren't they, mr. martin? mr. martin. yes. mr. rankin. can you tell us what the facts are in that regard, mr. martin? mr. martin. the contracts were drawn--let's see--the contracts were drawn and robert wanted to go over them, so we held it in abeyance. i think he was there on a sunday and he came back on a tuesday, i am not sure about the days, and signed the contracts. mr. rankin. do you know the signature of marina oswald? mr. martin. yes. mr. rankin. will you tell us whether or not exhibit no. bears her signature? mr. martin. yes, it does. mr. rankin. it appears to be witnessed by you, is that your signature? mr. martin. yes. mr. rankin. and the acceptance at the bottom of exhibit no. , do you know whose signature that is? mr. martin. john thorne's. mr. rankin. and you say that the exhibit was, the contract, exhibit no. was executed on the th rather than the th day of december. mr. martin. well, i can't recall the dates on it. mr. leech. excuse me for just a minute. (discussion off the record.) mr. leech. counsel, for what it is worth, robert's was executed at the same time as the other ones. i believe his is dated the th, isn't it? so it would have been the th or afterwards. they were all executed at the same time. mr. rankin. mr. martin, do you know that? mr. martin. i know they were all executed the same time. mr. rankin. whether or not it was the th or the th you don't recall at this time? mr. martin. no. i am fairly certain it was not the th. mr. rankin. are you certain what date it was? mr. martin. no. mr. rankin. what is your best recollection in that regard? mr. martin. well, it was several days after the contracts were drawn that they were executed, and i believe the contracts were drawn, and the date that they were drawn was entered on the contract. mr. rankin. you think that might have been december that they were drawn then? mr. martin. yes. mr. rankin. mr. chairman, that is already in evidence. mr. dulles. it has already been admitted. mr. rankin. yes. mr. dulles. mr. rankin, we would like to have a short adjournment at : . the members of the commission would like to speak with you. (short recess.) mr. dulles. the commission will resume. mr. rankin, will you please continue with the examination? mr. rankin. mr. martin, i have been asking you about some of your contractual and financial arrangements with marina oswald and also mr. thorne's and robert oswald's. if you and your counsel won't object i would like to depart from that because i would like to have this information developed when some of the members of the commission are here who might not be at other times during your examination. mr. martin. one thing mr. leech brought to my attention was that he thought maybe you might be under the impression that these contracts were all drawn on the same date, december . they weren't drawn on the same date. i think it was the th, th and th, or the th, th, and th. robert's was drawn on the th, mine was drawn the th, and mr. thorne's was drawn the th. mr. rankin. thank you. i want to ask you about a particular incident that was referred to in the houston post, an article in the paper and the source was given as you and that is in regard to mr. nixon, richard nixon, former vice president of the united states. did marina ever say anything to you about lee oswald planning any violent action or assassination of richard m. nixon? mr. martin. yes. mr. rankin. when did you first learn about that? mr. martin. i don't remember the date. it was sometime in january, and she mentioned it, said that he had come home one night and said, one evening, and said that he had waited for nixon to shoot him. mr. rankin. where was this? mr. martin. in dallas. mr. rankin. what time was it that he came home that night? mr. martin. i didn't question her too much about the time. i assumed that it was after work. mr. rankin. at about what time of the day was it? mr. martin. five or six o'clock. she said they were living on neely street, and he came home that night, and told her about it. so the next morning he got up, nixon had not come into town, so he said that he would be in the next day, and so he got up the next morning and got dressed with a suit, i believe she said, and she locked him in the bathroom and kept him there all day, they said. mr. rankin. did she say how she locked him in the bathroom? mr. martin. no. mr. rankin. did you ask her how she could do that, whether there was a lock on the inside of the bathroom or outside? mr. martin. no, i thought it was a little--i thought the story was a little far-fetched myself. mr. rankin. what did you say to her about it? mr. martin. well, i said, "don't go around telling people something like that." mr. rankin. did she say anything about whether it was true or not? mr. martin. she said it was true. mr. dulles. may i ask a question? mr. rankin. yes. mr. dulles. was this brought up in connection with anything in particular or just come out of the blue, blurted out? mr. martin. it just came out of the blue. mr. dulles. there was no prior conversation that led up to this or any background to it? mr. martin. not that i recall. it was just a statement that she made. i think she was talking about oswald---- representative ford. was she prone to come out with these kinds of comments or was this an unusual circumstance? mr. martin. no. she at times referred to some particular incident in russia or various things like that. and they would be completely unattached to anything that we had been talking about. mr. rankin. what more did you say to her about this incident when she brought it up? mr. martin. well, the only time i recall nixon being in dallas was in november. now, she was not living with oswald in november, and---- mr. rankin. did you say that to her? mr. martin. no. i just let the thing go. mr. rankin. you didn't even ask her how she locked him in the bathroom? mr. martin. no. i thought about it, because i know the only bathroom doors i have seen lock from the inside and they swing in. mr. rankin. did you ask her what he did after he was locked in the bathroom? mr. martin. yes. mr. rankin. what did she say about that? mr. martin. she said he didn't do anything. when she let him out that night, and i suppose he would be pretty mad at her, and she said no, he wasn't. mr. rankin. did she say she kept him in the bathroom all day? mr. martin. yes. representative ford. was anybody else present at the time of this statement by her to you? mr. martin. my wife. representative ford. did your wife make any inquiry? mr. martin. no. we thought it was some kind of a story. mr. rankin. you mean you thought it was an untrue story? mr. martin. yes, and why, i don't know. it didn't sound logical. mr. rankin. were there other conversations with marina that you had where you thought she was telling you things that were untrue? mr. martin. she would relate stories about russia that i would listen to but they didn't sound right. mr. rankin. do you recall any? mr. martin. well, they mostly dealt with boy friends. mr. rankin. what did she say in that regard? mr. martin. oh, she would talk about some individual boy friends, usually a non-russian, someone from rumania or germany or from some other country. mr. rankin. what did she say? mr. leech. is this going to be made public? mr. rankin. this might be, yes. mr. martin. oh, i don't know about specific incidents. she would remark about she knew--i am trying to think of a specific--one was, let's see, she left leningrad and went to minsk because of an association with a married man there. representative ford. in leningrad? mr. martin. it was either she left leningrad to go to minsk or vice versa. representative ford. but she left one or the other to go to the other because of an association with a married man? mr. martin. yes. mr. rankin. where was the association, in leningrad or in minsk? mr. martin. well, it was in the city that she left. mr. rankin. she was getting away from that association, was she? mr. martin. yes. mr. rankin. by going to the other city? mr. martin. yes. mr. rankin. do you recall any other conversation when she told you something that you don't believe? mr. martin. oh, she remarked about people that she knew in russia that had, we will say, lovers---- mr. dulles. did she tell anything about a letter that she wrote to a boy friend in minsk? mr. martin. after she was here in new orleans? mr. dulles. yes. mr. martin. yes. mr. dulles. what did she say about that? mr. martin. let's see, she said she wrote the letter, and i believe what it was she told the boy that she wasn't--she wanted to come back to russia, to him, she loved him, and the letter was returned, i believe, for lack of postage, and oswald got hold of the letter, and he asked her about it, and i think he asked her either to read it or he would read it. i believe she read it to him. this caused quite a bit of difficulty. now, that is when she was in new orleans. mr. rankin. when she was telling you about these people that had lovers in russia, you didn't believe these stories? is that what you are saying? mr. martin. well, of course, i know nothing about russian life. mr. rankin. yes. mr. martin. so i more or less took it with a grain of salt. i didn't put any credibility to it or any doubt to it. it was just something that was said and i didn't either accept it or reject it. mr. rankin. how did she happen to tell you about going to minsk to get away from a married man in leningrad? tell us how that came up. mr. martin. i think she was just talking about boy friends, i guess. mr. rankin. did she tell you she had quite a few boy friends? mr. martin. yes. mr. rankin. was that in russia that she had the boy friends? mr. martin. yes. mr. rankin. how many did she tell you about? mr. martin. oh, boy. well, she didn't mention any names as such, and i don't know whether different stories got confused to being two different people or--i would say or . mr. rankin. did she include lee oswald among those? mr. martin. well, you mean as a boy friend? mr. rankin. yes. mr. martin. no. mr. rankin. did she tell you anything about her relations with these boy friends? mr. martin. no. mr. rankin. you say you didn't believe these stories? mr. martin. well, i didn't have any reason to disbelieve or to believe them. they were just conversation. mr. rankin. now, on the nixon matter, when that came to your attention, did you tell anyone else about it? mr. martin. i discussed it with my wife, and with john thorne. mr. dulles. excuse me just a moment. mr. martin, this is congressman boggs, a member of the commission, and this is mr. leech, counsel for mr. martin. mr. leech. i know mr. boggs, i met him in new orleans years ago. mr. rankin. will you tell us about the conversation when you related this to someone else? mr. martin. it was on the telephone, and i was quite shocked at first about it and then thinking it over, it didn't sound logical. mr. rankin. you believed it at first? mr. martin. yes. i guess i didn't see any reason for it not to be true. but then i didn't see any reason for it to be a lie, either, and i supposed it was possible. mr. rankin. when did you tell mr. thorne about it with reference to when marina told you? mr. martin. the same day. i don't recall the date at all. mr. rankin. what did you say to mr. thorne about it? mr. martin. i just related the incident, what she had told me. mr. rankin. did you say anything to him about telling the commission about it? mr. martin. no. mr. rankin. did he say anything about telling the commission about it? mr. martin. no, i don't believe so. mr. rankin. was there anything else said in this telephone conversation with mr. thorne except relating what marina had said? mr. martin. i remarked what a big bombshell that would be as far as publicity was concerned if the newspapers ever got hold of something like that. mr. rankin. that it would be helpful in regard to marina's story, did you say that? mr. martin. no, i did think it would be harmful. mr. rankin. did you say that to him? mr. martin. i believe so. mr. dulles. why would it be harmful? mr. martin. well, this purportedly took place after the walker incident, and she had made a statement that if oswald repeated anything of a similar nature as the walker incident she would turn him over to the police, and this was a repeat or similar, he actually didn't shoot at him but threatened to, and she did not report it to the police. mr. dulles. i see. the walker incident took place on april , , according to our records. senator cooper. i would like you if you can to repeat everything that mrs. oswald told you about the nixon incident. what did lee say to her? mr. martin. this has been a very confusing months---- senator cooper. i know that. mr. martin. to me. senator cooper. do the best you can. take your time and tell us about it. mr. martin. i couldn't recall it verbatim, but she said he came in one evening, early in the evening, and said that he had tried to shoot nixon but that he had not come into town that night as he was supposed to have, or that day, but that he would be in the next day, and he would take care of it then. (discussion off the record.) senator cooper. i think you said that she did at least partly identify the time by saying at the time they were living on neely street. mr. martin. neely street. mr. dulles. may i just add there our records indicate they were living on neely street on march , between march , , and april , . senator cooper. did mrs. oswald tell you anything that he said about the way or means he intended to kill him or at what place? mr. martin. no. mr. redlich. do you recall what weapon she mentioned at the time? mr. martin. i don't know if i recall that she said shoot him or kill him. representative ford. could she speak english well enough to differentiate between shoot and kill? mr. martin. at the time? representative ford. yes. mr. martin. yes. representative ford. she could distinguish english that well? mr. redlich. did she mention a pistol or rifle? mr. martin. no. mr. redlich. did she mention whether he was employed at the time or unemployed at the time? mr. martin. i don't believe so. mr. redlich. did you ask her how it was possible for her to keep him in a bathroom for one whole day? mr. martin. no. mr. dulles. did you ask her why lee harvey oswald wanted to kill nixon, any motive? mr. martin. i think i asked, "well, why would he want to do that?" and she shrugged her shoulders. senator cooper. i would like to follow up on that. in this conversation with her, did he give any reason to marina oswald why he wanted to kill nixon? mr. martin. evidently not. she didn't answer. she didn't answer me when i asked. mr. redlich. mr. martin, you have said in your opinion the nixon incident was after the walker incident. mr. martin. well, that is what she said. mr. redlich. did she relate it to the general walker incident in any way when she discussed the nixon incident with you? mr. martin. she just said it was after general walker. mr. redlich. did she relate to you any conversation that she may have had with lee harvey oswald relating the nixon incident to the walker incident? mr. martin. no. mr. redlich. did she refer to any promise that he may have made at the time of the walker incident that may have related to the nixon incident? mr. martin. no. i remember her saying after the walker incident she told him that if he ever did anything of that nature again that she would report him to the police. mr. dulles. how did you know the nixon incident was after or supposed to be after the walker incident? did she say that? mr. martin. she said it was. mr. dulles. she said that? mr. martin. yes; i asked when it happened and she said after walker. mr. redlich. when she told you that she had threatened lee oswald with going to the police if there were another incident, did you ever ask her why she had not done so in light of the nixon incident which subsequently followed? mr. martin. i must not have because i think i would have remembered it if i had. mr. redlich. did you ever consider reporting the nixon incident to any federal authorities? mr. martin. if it didn't come out in the hearing, yes. mr. redlich. when mrs. oswald was preparing to come to washington with you for the hearings before this commission, did you discuss the nixon incident with her? mr. martin. i don't think so. i know i told her to be sure to tell the truth to the commission. she had mentioned that she had lied to the fbi. mr. redlich. with regard to what? mr. martin. on a mexico trip. she told the fbi she didn't know he had gone there or that he was going. mr. redlich. to the best of your knowledge had she ever related the nixon incident to the fbi or secret service prior to her trip to washington? mr. martin. i don't know. i was never in on any of the questions. mr. redlich. did you give her any advice in connection with any of those interviews? mr. martin. no. i told her if she got tired to tell them so that they could come back the next day. mr. redlich. you say when she was planning to come here you advised her to tell the truth? mr. martin. yes. mr. redlich. did you give her similar advice in connection with the fbi and secret service interviews? mr. martin. i don't think the situation ever arose. she asked specifically about the mexico incident. mr. redlich. throughout the many interviews with the fbi and secret service you never asked her, i take it, whether she had discussed the nixon incident with the fbi or the secret service? mr. martin. i think i may have asked her when she told me, if she had told the fbi. mr. redlich. what did she say? mr. martin. she said no. mr. redlich. what did you say? mr. martin. i don't recall if i said anything. representative ford. mr. redlich. i wonder if we couldn't have mr. martin tell us the time of day and the circumstances that this conversation with marina in the presence of your wife arose, not necessarily the date but the time of day, and the overall---- mr. martin. it was in the evening. representative ford. you were sitting around the room? mr. martin. yes, in the den. representative ford. just the three of you? mr. martin. yes. representative ford. did she just start talking or did you prompt her or just how did the situation arise? mr. martin. i don't recall. i think maybe--i think it just came into conversation as we were talking about the whole thing in general. mr. dulles. were you talking at that time about what her memoirs or any writings she might---- mr. martin. no. mr. dulles. --she might produce would include? mr. martin. no. representative ford. what was your wife's reaction to this story? mr. martin. well, she couldn't believe it either. representative ford. did she ask any questions about it such as the ones you have indicated? mr. martin. no, other than the ones i asked. mr. redlich. could you tell us with whom you have discussed the nixon incident other than those that you have mentioned thus far, i believe thus far you have said mrs. martin and mr. thorne. is there anyone else you have told this to? mr. martin. don levine. mr. redlich. who? mr. martin. levine. mr. redlich. who is he? mr. martin. a writer. mr. redlich. for what publication. mr. martin. he is an author. mr. dulles. freelance writer and author, isaac don levine for the record. mr. redlich. when did you relate this incident to him? mr. martin. back in january. mr. redlich. could you tell us why you told him? mr. martin. he is of the opinion that there is more to this than meets the eye, so to speak. he is---- mr. dulles. more to what? mr. martin. more to the assassination. mr. dulles. the nixon story? mr. martin. no. mr. dulles. the whole assassination, kennedy assassination? mr. martin. and he--of course, he is quite familiar with russian affairs, and he said the stories just don't match, and he was trying to tie in oswald, i guess, with the communist party or some attachment there some place, and i mentioned that i thought he was just a nut. mr. redlich. that who was. mr. martin. oswald. and i said, i told him i didn't know how true it was but then i related the story, and he--i cautioned him not to pass it around or anything like that, which he said he wouldn't. mr. redlich. were you or marina oswald compensated in any way for the release of this information to mr. levine? mr. martin. no. mr. dulles. was mr. levine at this time trying to get the rights to the story or the right to write the story? mr. martin. he wants to write the story, and through meredith press. mr. redlich. were you negotiating with mr. levine at the time concerning the rights to marina oswald's story? mr. martin. yes. mr. redlich. and it was during the course of these negotiations that you revealed to him the nixon incident? mr. martin. yes. mr. redlich. and this, you say, was sometime in january? mr. martin. yes. mr. redlich. did you tell anyone else other than mr. levine? mr. martin. not that i recall unless it was robert oswald. mr. redlich. will you try to refresh your recollection with regard to robert? mr. martin. i beg your pardon? mr. redlich. do you recall whether you had a conversation in mid-january with robert oswald concerning the nixon incident? mr. martin. i don't remember. i was trying to remember that the other day to find out if i had mentioned it to him. and---- mr. redlich. do you recall when robert oswald would come to visit your house? mr. martin. on sundays. mr. redlich. and what would he do on these sundays? mr. martin. usually take marina and the baby to the cemetery. mr. redlich. do you recall whether on one of those sundays you had a conversation with him concerning the nixon incident? mr. martin. i don't remember. i am not sure whether i did tell him or not. it seems to me that i did, but i can't recall the incident at all. mr. redlich. did mrs. oswald, marina oswald, ever indicate to you that she had discussed the nixon incident with anyone else? mr. martin. no. mr. redlich. to be more specific, did she ever indicate to you whether she had discussed the nixon incident with robert oswald? mr. martin. no. mr. redlich. with mrs. marguerite oswald? mr. martin. no. mr. redlich. with any federal authority? mr. martin. no. mr. redlich. could you state again what your advice to her was with regard to the revealing of this incident? mr. martin. well, i told her it would be advisable just not to say anything about it. mr. redlich. to anyone? mr. martin. that is right. mr. redlich. but you related the incident to mr. levine. mr. martin. yes. mr. redlich. when you accompanied mrs. oswald to washington for the hearings before this commission, did the nixon incident come up at all during your conversations? mr. martin. not that i recall. mr. redlich. this incident which you regarded of such importance at the time you didn't discuss with her at all during the time she was appearing before this commission? mr. martin. i don't remember mentioning it to her. mr. redlich. you didn't ask her whether she had told the commissioners? mr. martin. i think i asked john thorne if she had mentioned it. mr. redlich. what did mr. thorne say? mr. martin. he said no, not yet. and i dropped it at that. mr. redlich. you and mr. thorne didn't have any conversations concerning whether she should mention it? mr. martin. no. mr. redlich. at the conclusion of the testimony did you ask mrs. oswald whether she had mentioned it? mr. martin. not to my knowledge, no. mr. redlich. did you discuss with mr. thorne the question of whether she had mentioned the nixon incident before this commission? mr. martin. i think so. mr. redlich. what did mr. thorne say? mr. martin. he said no. mr. redlich. did you and mr. thorne discuss whether she should have mentioned that incident before this commission? mr. martin. no. mr. redlich. did you think it was an important incident, mr. martin? mr. martin. no. i don't know why--the credibility of it didn't sound logical. it didn't seem to me that it actually happened. mr. redlich. did you speak to any representative of the houston post or the associated press with regard to this incident in the last several days? mr. martin. yesterday morning. mr. redlich. could you tell us the nature of that conversation? mr. martin. he came out and asked me. mr. redlich. who is "he"? mr. martin. let's see, his name is creighton, i believe or the last name began with a "c", he is with the houston post, reporter. he came out and asked me what i knew about the nixon incident and i said i know nothing about it. he said well he had it on good authority that there was a diary that lee harvey oswald had written and it was mentioned in the diary. now, i have never heard of a diary involved. there are some pages of manuscript that he is supposed to have written, but i have never heard of a diary. then--which i told him. he asked me if i knew of anyone that he could contact to find more about it. and i said well, if anybody knows about it, it will be the commission, and i told him that i had just heard about it the day before, and he asked if marina knew anything about it, and i said i don't know. mr. redlich. you didn't discuss with this reporter whether you believed the incident to be true? mr. martin. no. mr. redlich. at the time you first learned about the incident you thought it was of sufficient importance that you called mr. thorne the same day, isn't that right? mr. martin. yes. we discussed it back and forth and i don't--we couldn't think of how it could happen. mr. leech. could we go off the record? (discussion off the record.) mr. dulles. read this brief report into the record. mr. redlich. i would like to read into the record a story which appears in the washington post february , -- , , dated houston, texas, february , associated press: "the houston post quoted an associate of lee harvey oswald's widow tonight as saying oswald planned to kill former vice president richard m. nixon. the post quoted james martin, until a few days ago marina oswald's business representative, as saying that evidence to this effect had been presented to the warren commission investigating the assassination of president john f. kennedy. martin is scheduled to testify before the commissioners thursday. nixon was in dallas the day before president kennedy was killed. oswald was charged with the slaying." mr. martin. now. i did not tell him--i told him exactly what i told you, that i had no knowledge of it. i had secondhand knowledge only of it. i said if anyone knew about it the commission would know it. mr. redlich. did you tell him that this evidence had been presented before the warren commission? mr. martin. no, i told him if anybody knew about it, you would know about it. senator cooper. i think you said a minute ago that you only learned about it the day before? mr. martin. that is what i told the newspaper reporter. senator cooper. what is the significance of that? did you talk to somebody the day before? mr. martin. no, it was just a method of brushing him off. senator cooper. had you talked to robert oswald the day before? mr. martin. no. senator cooper. may i ask this: now, mrs. marina oswald told you about the nixon incident? mr. martin. yes. senator cooper. had she previously told you about the walker incident? mr. martin. yes. senator cooper. general walker? mr. martin. yes, after it came out in the newspapers. the first i heard about it was when i read in the newspapers. senator cooper. then she talked to you about it? mr. martin. i asked her about it. senator cooper. you have read somewhere, have you, that mrs. marina oswald said that lee oswald gave her his reason for wanting to shoot at general walker? mr. martin. the reason she gave me was that lee harvey oswald thought that general walker was a fascist. senator cooper. right. mr. martin. and needed to be killed. senator cooper. did she tell you any statement that lee oswald made giving his reasons that he wanted to kill or shoot richard nixon? mr. martin. no. senator cooper. didn't talk about that at all? mr. martin. no. senator cooper. did she ever tell you of any other statements that lee oswald had made to her about his, any attempts that he made or any intentions that he had to kill any other person? mr. martin. no. senator cooper. you are sure of that? mr. martin. positive. senator cooper. did she tell you about any statements that lee oswald might have made about president kennedy? mr. martin. no. anything that---- senator cooper. you must have talked to her a great deal about this assassination of president kennedy. mr. martin. actually, i tried to avoid most of this stuff. senator cooper. what? mr. martin. i tried to avoid most of these things. i don't know, i figured they would be a sore spot with her, but i don't know whether they were or not. senator cooper. it would be tremendously helpful to this commission to know if she did talk to you about the assassination of president kennedy and anything that lee oswald might have said about him before and tell us anything---- mr. martin. if she had said anything to me about it i would definitely tell you. i cannot recall any incident that--of the conversation between she and lee about any other assassination or about the president. mr. dulles. had you ever met or heard of lee harvey oswald prior to november , ? mr. martin. no. representative boggs. mrs. oswald lived in your home for how long? mr. martin. about - / months. representative boggs. you had many conversations with her in that period of time. mr. martin. no, not really many. i was usually out of the house, and there weren't many opportunities that arose to have a conversation. representative boggs. did you ever have any reason to believe that she was anything other than what she appeared to be, namely an ordinary housewife who had come to this country as the wife of an american whom she married? mr. martin. looking back on the whole picture, she doesn't seem quite right. i mean she doesn't fit. representative boggs. what do you mean by that? mr. martin. as a mother and a housewife. she is too cold for one thing. representative boggs. cold in what way? mr. martin. emotionally. this thing, i don't know whether it is the russian woman or what, but this thing would have terrifically upset an american woman, and she was not very upset at all. representative ford. not upset about the assassination? mr. martin. about her husband. representative ford. about her husband's subsequent death? representative boggs. well now---- mr. martin. she was to a degree. but it didn't ring true. representative boggs. so what do you mean by that. do you mean that because of her coolness under very terrific--very difficult conditions and a very difficult situation, that maybe she was not just what she appeared to be, and if not, what do you think she was? mr. martin. i have no idea. it is the way she treated, the way she treated contributions, for instance; someone would send a dollar, i don't know, maybe it was her last dollar, and she would look at it and throw it aside and say, "oh, it is just a dollar." and john thorne and i kind of built up an image for her or of her, for the american public, and she is not exactly as we picture her in the news articles. mr. redlich. would you spell that out in more detail? mr. martin. well, for one thing, i recall instances that she read the bible every day, she didn't crack a bible. she got up between and o'clock every morning. the only household chores she did was wash the evening dinner dishes, and occasionally she would vacuum. representative boggs. this may be attributed to lack of energy or laziness. mr. martin. well, yes, that is true. but she is not a humble person at all. representative ford. did you ever see her cry or show any comparable emotions? mr. martin. no. the closest i ever saw her to really showing any emotion at all was when, it was about a week after she had been there, she saw a picture, of jackie kennedy's picture--a picture of jackie kennedy, i don't know whether it was life magazine or what. representative boggs. did she ever do anything or say anything that would give you any reason to believe that maybe she was part of an intelligence system? mr. martin. no. although i have wondered about it since. mr. redlich. since when, mr. martin? mr. martin. well, this whole thing, since i got into it. this whole thing seems to me like i have been kind of made a patsy. robert oswald wouldn't take her in right after this incident because he was afraid of what might happen, might or might not happen. the fords also expressed the same opinion. mr. dulles. what do you mean by the same opinion? mr. martin. that they wouldn't have taken her in at first. mr. ford expressed the opinion that he was afraid of what the public reaction might be and he didn't know what to think. we took her in with the full knowledge that anything could happen, and anything might happen, and it was done strictly on an altruistic basis at first, and then this manager thing came in which i wish it hadn't at all. but be that as it may, it has happened, and things have been turned upside down. but then as soon as the secret service was pulled off then robert insisted that she move from my home to his home, and start proceedings to cancel the contracts that are in existence. she was up there--she came back to the doctor on a tuesday after she left our home, and stopped in at the house and said she wanted to come back to live with us. mr. dulles. when was this approximately? just after she moved to the fords or how long after she moved? mr. martin. no, she left my home on sunday, went to denton to live with robert, came back to the doctor, dr. bishop, on tuesday, and came over to the house to pick up some of her belongings, and---- mr. redlich. excuse me, just so the commission has the date straight, the sunday you are referring to when she left is the sunday after her appearance before this commission? mr. martin. yes. mr. redlich. that would be the th of february, is that correct? mr. martin. right. then on tuesday, which would be the th, she came back to the house, and wanted to move back in. representative ford. who drove her, how did she get there? mr. martin. vada oswald, robert oswald's wife. mr. redlich. are you finished with what you were about to say? mr. martin. it just seemed strange to me that a sudden move should be made like that and then within two days after that, it was tuesday, and wednesday, thursday and i received a letter from her discharging me as her manager or attempting to discharge me. representative boggs. i was asking you about intelligence and that sort of thing. this would not indicate that sort of thing to you, would it? mr. martin. no, but the whole thing seemed to be a kind of a preplanned thing. mr. redlich. will you spell that out in more detail because when congressman boggs asked you questions as to whether mrs. oswald might be part of soviet intelligence you replied you are now beginning to wonder, and you also replied you wonder if you have been made a patsy. could you, in your own words, explain that answer in greater detail? mr. martin. of course, not knowing how a spy would work or anything, i have no knowledge of anything of this sort, this whole thing shows a lack of gratefulness or something, and actually she showed the same thing with mrs. paine. she lived with mrs. paine for quite some time. then mrs. paine has been trying to contact her consistently for, well, ever since the assassination, and we have passed letters to her, letters from mrs. paine to marina, wherein she has asked marina to at least call her or do something, and marina doesn't want to have anything to do with her. mr. redlich. has marina given you a reason for that? mr. martin. she said she doesn't like her. mr. dulles. do you know why it was that robert oswald advised her not to go back to the paines or did you know that he did? mr. martin. i knew that he did. mr. dulles. do you know the reason for that? mr. martin. no. he said he just didn't like her. mr. dulles. he gave no reasons? mr. martin. no. mr. redlich. and mrs. oswald, marina oswald, gave no reason to you as to why she didn't like the paines? mr. martin. no, i think it is because robert didn't. that is a thought. mr. redlich. you said that---- mr. martin. she has expressed that. mr. redlich. you said that you were beginning to wonder whether this is a preplanned affair. what do you mean by that? mr. martin. well, i don't mean preplanned from the very beginning, but i think probably sometime in december from then on it might have been planned. we have accumulated for her a considerable amount of money in story rights. representative boggs. how much? mr. martin. well, on advances, this is not the ultimate or the end result, but just on advances, it is $ , . mr. redlich. mr. martin, you are reading from a document. is that something---- mr. martin. this i brought for you. we don't have the money. but these are the contracts that have been negotiated. mr. redlich. is this something you are turning over to the commission? mr. martin. yes, that is for your information. mr. dulles. what is the nature of this document? mr. martin. it is a handwritten---- mr. dulles. by whom? mr. martin. by me, a handwritten list of the publishers, and the news media that i have contacted in marina's behalf to sell her movie rights, the tv right, book rights and so forth. mr. dulles. and the amount they have proposed to pay for them? mr. martin. well, these are just the advances. now, in the case of texitalia films, for instance---- mr. redlich. could i interrupt and get this identified? mr. martin. certainly. mr. redlich. with your permission, we would like to introduce this into evidence and take, a photostatic copy and leave you with the original. mr. martin. certainly. mr. dulles. would you describe this? mr. redlich. this document lists various publications, media of communication, and indicating the amounts which have been the subject of negotiation, and the contracts, if any, which have been signed with these various media of publication concerning marina oswald's story. mr. dulles. mr. martin has said this is written in his own hand, is that correct, mr. martin? mr. martin. yes, sir. representative boggs. mr. chairman, i have to go to a meeting at the speaker's office momentarily, i would just like to ask one further question of this witness. now, i understand about the business negotiations here and so forth, but i want you to be specific--anything that comes to your mind as to whether or not this woman, anything more than what i asked you about. mr. leech. can you give us about two minutes in that room? (discussion off the record.) mr. redlich. back on the record. mr. dulles. just one minute. this should go in the record. representative boggs. who is this individual? mr. martin. i have been trying to remember his name. i can find out his name. it began with an "h". mr. dulles. would you repeat the story, please, and then we will continue with the examination. mr. martin. i met a gentleman who is an executive with the dinkler hotel chain, and he related the story to me that was told to him by one of their engineers, a maintenance man in the atlanta, in their atlanta hotel. the maintenance man's wife was an, or is a long distance telephone operator, and on the night preceding the assassination there was an individual that called, well, the way i heard the story, that she said he sounded like he had been drinking, and that he mentioned to her to remember this telephone call because it would go down in history. he made a credit card call to lee harvey oswald, and simply said, "proceed as planned." then he made another telephone call to jack ruby and told him that if anything went wrong he knew what to do. now, i questioned this, i guess there are numerous rumors of this type or whatever it is, and he said no, that it was definitely the truth, and the reason she hadn't come out before with it was that it is a violation of federal law to listen to a long distance telephone call, and that they finally did report it to the fbi. mr. redlich. the person you were speaking to, as i understand this story, received the information from a maintenance man whose wife was the telephone operator who overheard the conversation? mr. martin. yes. representative boggs. was this a telephone operator in a dinkler hotel? mr. martin. i didn't get that whether it was in a dinkler hotel or whether she was in the long distance or toll offices in atlanta. representative boggs. did this person have the credit card number and so forth? mr. martin. no. the person that i was talking to? representative boggs. did the telephone operator have it? mr. martin. the telephone operator did, or the telephone company has the records. representative boggs. do you have any other information that would indicate that---- mr. martin. no, i know this doesn't indicate anything about marina as far as--no, it is just a strange feeling as far as marina is concerned. she is too cold. mr. redlich. when did you hear about this story, mr. martin? mr. martin. about a week ago. mr. redlich. you haven't discussed it at all with marina in that week? mr. martin. no. mr. redlich. i would like to question you again on congressman boggs point. you have said she is too cold, you have said you thought that all this was preplanned. is there anything specific in anything that she told you or in any of her actions which would lead you to believe that she has withheld certain information from you, or this commission, concerning her knowledge about the assassination? mr. martin. no, except she made a remark to me one time that she didn't volunteer anything. she only answered questions. representative ford. this was after the return from the commission hearing? mr. martin. no, this was sometime ago. that was before---- representative ford. before the commission hearing where she appeared? mr. martin. yes. and it was---- mr. dulles. is that all you had on this particular point? representative boggs. yes. mr. martin. i don't remember what brought it up even. she didn't like the fbi. she said that. and she didn't like to answer questions. mr. redlich. did she tell you why? mr. martin. no. she just didn't like them. boguslav in particular. mr. dulles. but her remark was made before her hearing before this commission? mr. martin. yes. mr. dulles. and did not relate then to that hearing. mr. martin. no. mr. redlich. did she indicate to you she had revealed everything that there was to reveal before this commission? mr. martin. yes. there again i didn't question her about anything that she said in the commission. i didn't feel it was any of my business for one thing, and all i asked her is how it went, and she would say fine, and that would be the end of it. that is the limit of my questioning her as far as testimony within the commission was concerned. mr. redlich. will you tell us how you found out about the general walker incident? mr. martin. read it from the newspapers. mr. redlich. when you read about it did you talk to mrs. oswald about it? mr. martin. yes. mr. redlich. could you tell us the nature of the conversation? mr. martin. well, i asked her if it was true, and she said yes, and i also asked her who was with oswald, and she said no one. he did things alone. and, let's see, she related the story as to the note he had written. he had left earlier in the evening, and he hadn't come home at the, we'll say, at an early hour, and she was getting quite upset with him, and she found this note on a bed table or somewhere in the bedroom, and read it, and it simply said that he might be gone for a time or he might be in jail, and instructions as to what to do in case he was gone. mr. redlich. did marina tell you all about this? mr. martin. yes. mr. redlich. in english? mr. martin. yes. mr. redlich. she knew english well enough to be able to relate this type of story? mr. martin. she learned very rapidly. mr. redlich. do you recall approximately when that was? mr. martin. no. it was the same day it came out in the paper. representative ford. did she know of her own knowledge about general walker? did she indicate any background information about general walker? mr. martin. no. representative ford. she only told what lee told her about it? mr. martin. lee told her he was a fascist. mr. dulles. did she recount to you, that is, did marina account to you, what she said to lee harvey after this incident, after the walker incident, after he told her about the walker incident? mr. martin. yes, she said that she hid the note that he left in a cookbook and told him if he ever did anything like that again that she would turn that note over to the police and turn him over to the police also. mr. redlich. mr. martin, were you aware that marina oswald had given this information voluntarily to the secret service or the fbi concerning the walker incident? mr. martin. no. mr. redlich. did you ever ask her about it? mr. martin. well, it was in the newspapers so i assumed they knew about it. mr. redlich. and you assumed she had volunteered this information? mr. martin. well, of course now, i was a little concerned to begin with as to how it got out. mr. redlich. why were you concerned? mr. martin. well, if she had told it to the fri and the fbi only then how did it get in the newspapers? mr. redlich. what was the--you say you were concerned that certain aspects of her story were being released. what was the nature of your concern? mr. martin. well, i was just wondering how that information got to the newspapers? mr. redlich. did you ask her? mr. martin. no, i didn't ask her because she didn't see any newspaper reporters at all. mr. redlich. did you ask any of the agents of the fbi or the secret service? mr. martin. yes, mr. heitman. mr. redlich. what did mr. heitman tell you? mr. martin. he said it didn't come from the dallas office. he said it must have come from washington. the houston chronicle brought it out. mr. redlich. by washington he meant the washington office? mr. martin. of the fbi, the justice department. mr. redlich. fbi. that was his opinion as to where this information could come from? mr. martin. yes. mr. redlich. did you ever ask mrs. oswald why she had not revealed this information prior to that time? mr. martin. no. i tried to stay as far away from this investigation as possible, because i didn't want to get into it at all to be real frank about it. i figured there are people better equipped than i to ferret out information and they have methods of doing it that i have no idea about. mr. redlich. at that time, however, you were acting as her business representative. mr. martin. yes. because i had to refute something in the paper. mr. redlich. were you assisting her at that time in the preparation of any narratives that she was preparing in connection with her story? mr. martin. no. she has never written anything other than the manuscript that she wrote for the commission. and we have never pre-prepared anything. mr. dulles. has she had conversations with others, to your knowledge, who have been writing material, isaac don levine, for example? mr. martin. the only one would be levine. mr. dulles. the only one would be isaac don levine? mr. martin. levine told me she told him that her husband was a trotskyite. now what that means, i don't know but he seemed to think quite a bit. mr. dulles. marina told isaac don levine? mr. martin. yes. mr. dulles. that marina's husband? mr. martin. lee oswald was a trotskyite. mr. dulles. he was a trotskyite. mr. redlich. mr. martin, in what way do you consider yourself a patsy? mr. martin. well, because this, for instance---- mr. redlich. may we introduce this in evidence so we know what we are talking about? mr. chairman, i offer---- mr. dulles. identify it. mr. redlich. in the course of the witness' explanation of his business representation of mrs. oswald the witness has presented before this commission a list of arrangements that he has entered into or is considering entering into concerning the sale of certain aspects of mrs. oswald's story. this document is, we are told, written in mr. martin's handwriting. i show the witness commission exhibit no. and ask you whether this document is one that you have brought before the commission and whether its contents are as i have described them. mr. martin. yes, it is. mr. redlich. mr. chairman, i ask that commission exhibit no. be admitted. mr. dulles. it shall be admitted. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification and received in evidence.) mr. redlich. it is understood that a photostat of this exhibit will be made part of the permanent record of the commission, and that the original will be returned to the witness. mr. dulles. i wonder if you wouldn't leave us the original in this case because this was prepared for the commission? mr. martin. you can have the original. mr. dulles. we will keep the original and we will be glad to give you a photostat for your records. mr. martin. i have it right up here. mr. dulles. do you want to read that into the record, it is quite short and it might make the record more intelligible. mr. redlich. since this is in the handwriting of the witness may i suggest that the witness read it? mr. dulles. right. mr. martin. texitalia films, $ , movie and the tv rights, world wide plus $ , plus expenses per film appearance, plus $ , per--plus expenses for personal appearance. contract was signed february . life magazine was $ , , north american rights for lee had photo with rifle and pistol. stern magazine, $ , , story serial rights for germany and italy only, with a - percent reciprocal for serial rights in europe, percent to marina. stern magazine, $ , picture rights on the seven photos with same arrangements as above. mr. redlich. finish the documents. mr. martin. meredith press, $ , advance on world book rights. london daily mirror $ , guarantee on - reciprocal for british commonwealth rights on rifle photo. detroit free press stole photo and has sold it to foreign news media thereby leaving themselves liable. this week magazine, $ , for -word article. total is $ , . mr. redlich. mr. martin, it is in connection with this document that you have referred to yourself as a possible patsy? mr. martin. yes. mr. dulles. could i ask just one moment before that, how much has been received and how much is---- mr. martin. $ , of it. the rest is being held, $ , in texitalia films they have the money. mr. dulles. who is they? mr. martin. texitalia films. but they don't want to part with it until this is settled. mr. redlich. until what is settled? mr. martin. until there is an amicable settlement between marina oswald and myself. mr. redlich. concerning your representation of her? mr. martin. yes. mr. dulles. you mean they are holding their own money and not paying it at the present time? mr. martin. yes. mr. redlich. it hasn't been put in escrow or anything of that kind? mr. martin. no. we have received $ , from life magazine. that is in an escrow account. i have a check for $ , from stern magazine, which is uncashed because the attorney mckenzie who has been hired by robert wrote a letter to stern magazine saying that i had no authority to make any deals for marina. so they stopped payment on the check. of course, i haven't tried to cash the check, so it is sitting. mr. redlich. at this time, rather than go into the details of these business arrangements, i would like to revert to the question posed earlier in connection with this document, you referred to yourself as a patsy. would you care to explain that? mr. martin. well, i have put in approximately - / months of good, hard work and grief trying in the first place, trying to keep the news media away from her and at the same time trying to sell her story. mr. redlich. don't assume we know anything, tell us everything. mr. martin. i had to leave my job at the inn of the six flags to properly handle this which was the first of the year. i could not keep going on both jobs. these contracts were negotiated on the basis of my contract with her, which states that i have full power to sign any contracts for her in these fields. william mckenzie, who is, was hired, apparently, by robert oswald, and is acting in his behalf, i guess, although he is using marina oswald's name, has tried to cancel my contract retroactively, in other words, just like it was never there at all, and it just happened too suddenly for it not to have been planned. mr. redlich. what would have been planned? what is the plan that you suspect? mr. martin. well, the dropping of it--as soon as the money starts to come in, then the first thing they want to do is get rid of the personal manager and the attorney who has been taking all, who have been the buffers for the - / months prior to that. the secret service was pulled off, there is apparently no danger at all concerning her life or anyone connected with her. so they feel perfectly safe in taking off, carrying on where we left off, utilizing all the work that we had put into it. this was not a decision that was made in two days. mr. redlich. could you be more specific in terms of your suspicions with regard to the plan which you have alleged here was designed to get you off this job? mr. martin. well, i have letters from--one from marina and one from mckenzie, that requests my discharge from this contractual agreement. now they have actually no reason to cancel the contract. i have performed as far as these sales are concerned quite well, and, of course, those are just advance payments of $ , . there would be more on royalties after that. mr. dulles. did you sign these agreements or mr. thorne or did marina sign them? mr. martin. i did. mr. dulles. these agreements with the news media? mr. martin. i did. mr. dulles. you signed them? mr. martin. according to the contract that i have with marina, "you will authorize me and approve for and in my behalf and in your discretion and decision the following: approve and permit the use of my name, photographs, likeness, voice, sound effects, characters, persons for all publicity, advertising and the promotion of any and all ventures desired by you to be undertaken by me and for the performance by me of any appearance or service. you are authorized, empowered and directed by me." mr. dulles. i think we have a copy of this, do we not? mr. redlich. yes. you are reading from---- mr. martin. my contract. mr. redlich. yes, just so the record is clear, the contract between james martin and marina oswald is commission exhibit which was introduced in connection with robert oswald's testimony. mr. martin, there has been introduced in a prior hearing what is now commission exhibits nos. and , a letter from william mckenzie to you and a letter from william mckenzie to mr. thorne concerning the discharging of your services. do you have any document which you wish to introduce at the present time concerning that--the reasons given for your discharge, because i would like to ask you questions concerning that? mr. leech. may i ask the date of the letter please, sir? give me the date. i think we have the originals, sir. mr. redlich. there is one dated february , two of them dated february . mr. leech. yes, one to jim martin and one to mr. john thorne. mr. redlich. one is addressed to mr. james martin and the other to mr. john thorne. mr. leech. yes, sir; we have the originals. mr. redlich. do you have with you any other letters in connection with the termination of mr. martin's services? mr. martin. one from marina oswald. (discussion off the record.) mr. redlich. mr. martin, you said earlier in your testimony that you were building a public image of marina oswald? mr. martin. yes. mr. redlich. would you tell the commission what you mean by that? mr. martin. well, in this type of thing---- mr. redlich. may i interrupt and suggest you don't thumb through---- mr. martin. excuse me. we were trying to create in the public mind an image of a bereaved widow and a simple lost girl. and i think we did actually. this was for her, as i say, for her benefit. she has received some $ , in contributions, and the image is not all true. mr. redlich. would you tell us in respect to which in your opinion the image is not true? mr. martin. well, as i mentioned before about the bible, this is a very small incident, she has received numerous bibles in the mail, and to my knowledge has never read the first page of one, and most of them are in russian. this is a small thing really but it is part of her image, that she is a religious person. she wants to be thought of as we have built her now but she doesn't conform to that image. mr. redlich. in what way, how? mr. martin. well, she is lazy, for one thing. mr. redlich. lazy in what respect? mr. martin. well, as far as even taking care of the children. the children bother her. i mean to her they are a constant upset. when she left our home to go up to denton, my wife offered to keep the baby there at the house if she liked, and marina took her up on it and then robert told her she had better take the baby with her. she hadn't seen the baby for over a week. and the first day she was back she was willing to leave the baby again. mr. redlich. is there anything else? mr. martin. her lack of, well, humbleness as far as all these contributions are concerned. she takes it as a matter of--she takes it for granted. she is quite unhappy when the contributions slack off. mr. redlich. has she discussed the amount of contributions with you? mr. martin. i have kept her informed all along on it. mr. redlich. has she indicated that there is some relationship between the story that she reveals to the public and the contributions which she will receive? mr. martin. yes. mr. redlich. would you be more specific about that? mr. martin. well, she has read newspaper articles, for instance, that i haven't written but i have directed. mr. redlich. directed? mr. martin. by giving them information. mr. redlich. what is the nature---- mr. martin. to build it up. mr. redlich. what is the nature of these articles? mr. martin. well, i recall one, i wonder if i have it, i guess i don't have it, that was written by bill burrus of the times herald in dallas. it was a very good article, and not quite true, we will say. it is shaded in truth. mr. redlich. do you have the article with you? mr. martin. here is one bill burrus did that is when she went to midnight mass. mr. redlich. mr. martin has submitted to the commission an article which does not carry a date or the name of the publication in which it appears, but is headed "marina oswald attended mass, had quiet yule", by bill burrus. mr. martin. that was the dallas times herald. mr. redlich. since we would like to question the witness about this, i would like to label it commission exhibit no. and ask it be introduced in evidence. mr. dulles. it will be admitted with no objection. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification and received in evidence.) mr. redlich. i hand you commission exhibit , mr. martin. will you tell us in what respects this article is not true? mr. martin. well, i wouldn't say it is strictly not true. but it embellishes the truth. mr. redlich. could you be specific in terms of references to the particular article? mr. martin. well, for instance, let's see, is this where she went to church? mr. dulles. did she go to church? mr. martin. yes. mr. leech. it is my partner's church. mr. martin. well, for instance, "she wandered around the secret quarters for long periods of time, sometimes she listened to christmas carols over radio or television", which i believe is not true. i don't believe i told that; that was just added in there. "marina continued her studies of the english language and watched television, including her favorite steve allen show". she doesn't even like steve allen. and, of course, she is never studying english. mr. dulles. was this information that you gave to mr. burrus? mr. martin. no. that is the trouble with newspapers. i have told bill burrus that she watches steve allen. she does but just for lack of anything else to do. now i didn't say anything about the christmas carols nor about studying the english language. mr. dulles. you say she has not been studying the english language? mr. martin. no, she is learning it quite rapidly because she had to in her own defense in order to converse with people. when she was living with us, there was no one there that spoke russian so she had to learn english in order to converse. mr. dulles. is there anything else in this particular article that you would either regard as unslanted or untrue? mr. martin. no. mr. dulles. could you give us other examples where---- mr. martin. there is the first one. mr. dulles. if you are planning to comment on that i would like to introduce it in evidence. mr. martin. yes. this will go with it. mr. redlich. the witness has submitted to the commission an article appearing in the dallas times herald on sunday, december , , the headline reading, "marina oswald, all the pity in the world won't help", written by bill burrus. this has now been marked as commission exhibit no. , and i ask that it be admitted in evidence. mr. dulles. this will be admitted, if there is no objection. (the document referred to was marked commission exhibit no. for identification and received in evidence.) mr. redlich. mr. martin, i hand you commission exhibit no. and ask you to tell the commission in what respects if any there is material in this article which you regard as untrue or exaggerated or slanted? mr. martin. here is a sentence in here, "she pores over the letters reaching her more than a thousand so far and is choked with emotion by the compassion and support they express", the only thing she did actually was to open the letters and did not open all of them. the only letters she read or attempted to read were ones written in russian. mr. redlich. what was her reaction to those letters? mr. martin. acceptance of it but no real thankfulness. the further it went, the longer it went, it seemed the less she cared whether---- mr. dulles. did burrus get this slanted material from you? mr. martin. yes. mr. redlich. do you recall anything she specifically said in response to these letters that is leading you to the conclusion that you have reached? mr. martin. that she specifically said? mr. redlich. yes. mr. martin. well, for instance, one day she opened a letter and there was a dollar in it and she said, "oh, a dollar", and threw it on the table, and there are little things that living as closely as we did, you can't really recall the specific incidents but there is a general feeling, and there is a complete lack of compassion as to what all these people are doing for her or trying to do for her. mr. redlich. but you can't recall anything specific that she said which would indicate this lack of compassion? mr. martin. no, other than "the american people are crazy for sending me that money". mr. redlich. is that a quotation from mrs. oswald? she said the american people are crazy for sending this money? mr. martin. yes. mr. redlich. did she elaborate on it? mr. martin. no. mr. redlich. did you reply to that? mr. martin. i told her that they felt sorry for her and she didn't say anything. mr. redlich. did she make any other comments of that nature? mr. martin. other than that dollar bill. those are the only ones i can remember specifically. mr. redlich. would you continue your examination of commission exhibit no. ? mr. martin. well, let's see, "unlike her husband, marina is devout. she is a member of the greek orthodox church", that is not true. she was not a devout greek orthodox. she was not devout anything so far as religion is concerned. mr. dulles. did she ever say anything about the baptism of her child in that church to you? mr. martin. well, now let's see, she was supposed to have gotten june baptized without her husband's knowledge. mr. redlich. you say she was supposed to have, where did you get that information? mr. martin. well, i read it somewhere prior to this article. this article has it in there. i didn't give him this information. he got it from some other article, and i recall reading it. and when she read this, she commented on it. she said he did know that june was being baptized. mr. redlich. did she read that? mr. martin. yes. mr. redlich. in english? mr. martin. yes. mr. redlich. she knew english well enough to read this? mr. martin. yes. it took her a while to read it. mr. redlich. i would like to call the attention---- mr. martin. this is december . mr. redlich. i would like to call the attention of the commission to the date which is sunday, december . you say as of sunday, december , which is a little over weeks after she came to live with you, mrs. oswald knew english well enough to be able to read this and understand it? mr. martin. not to read it legibly, i mean not to understand every word of it but she understood the biggest part of the article. i was quite amazed at how much she could read. she can't read writing or says she can't, but she can read printing or typing. here is another one now, "she is poring over children's primary readers and studying the russian-english dictionary attempting to understand all the words and talk about her." she had one child's book that one of the secret service men brought her, and she looked at it and that was the end of that. mr. redlich. where did this information appearing in this story come from? did you tell that to mr. burrus? mr. martin. yes. mr. redlich. when mrs. oswald read this story and saw things that were not quite true, did she discuss that fact with you? mr. martin. on one occasion, let's see, what was it--it may have been in this article. oh, yes, about the baptism. she said that lee did know about the baptism. this was gleaned from some place else. mr. dulles. before or afterward? mr. martin. well, she said before. before the baptism. "she washes clothes for herself and june lee, she cooks her own meals favoring macaroni and other casserole dishes." she did not cook her own meals. she cooked twice while she was at the house in two and a half months. mr. redlich. is this fact one which you related to mr. burrus, the fact she cooked her own meals? mr. martin. i didn't say she cooked her own meals but she cooked. mr. redlich. do you recall what reaction if any mrs. oswald had in reading this comment? mr. martin. the only one she commented on was she doesn't like macaroni, it is noodles. mr. redlich. but mrs. oswald voiced no objection to your giving this information to the newspapers which to use your expression was not quite true? mr. martin. no. "marina now has the first dish washer she has ever used and she thinks it is wonderful". actually, she didn't like it but now in most of this stuff bill burrus would ask me a question like, "does she have a dish washer", and i would say "yes", and he would elaborate on it. this is quite a sympathetic article. "marina gets up at about a.m. every day." she always got up between and . "she asked secret service men to read some of the letters to her". i don't recall any incident where she did. mr. redlich. was that also a fact which you gave to mr. burrus? mr. martin. no. "as the hours and days tick by marina watches television and struggles with newspapers. these things bring tears to her eyes, pictures of president kennedy, jackie, lee oswald, mrs. tippit, the wife of the slain police officer. sometimes she turns off the set." that is not true. mr. redlich. could you be a little bit more specific about that? were there instances in which she saw these people mentioned and what was her reaction? mr. martin. no real reaction at all. just there on television. mr. dulles. you started to describe earlier i think when she saw a picture of mrs. jacqueline kennedy and she made certain remarks. i don't know that we finished that. mr. martin. well, yes; she did. she remarked, "oh, jackie, jackie", and that was it. there wasn't--kind of shook her head. that is in this article, too, and that is true. of course, this last paragraph, "the agents speak through curtains and she feels hunted sometimes despite friendly letters and packages". i don't think she has ever felt hunted or in danger. she has expressed that opinion. she didn't feel that anyone was--anyone intended to harm her. mr. dulles. did she ever express any ideas about going back to the soviet union? mr. martin. she said it once and i questioned her about it. she said she was just--what was it--just joking. she used a funny sounding word for joking. i don't remember what it was. mr. redlich. do you have any further comments with regard to this particular exhibit? mr. martin. no. mr. redlich. i suggest this would be a good time for recess, mr. chairman. mr. dulles. all right. the commission will be adjourned until p.m., this afternoon. would you report with your counsel at that time? (whereupon, at : p.m., the president's commission recessed.) transcriber's notes: punctuation and spelling were made consistent when a predominant preference was found in this book; otherwise they were not changed. misspellings in quoted evidence not changed; misspellings that could be due to mispronunciations were not changed. some simple typographical errors were corrected. inconsistent hyphenation of compound words retained. ambiguous end-of-line hyphens retained. occasional uses of "mr." for "mrs." and of "mrs." for "mr." corrected. dubious repeated words, (e.g., "what took place by way of of conversation?") retained. several unbalanced quotation marks not remedied. occasional periods that should be question marks not changed. occasional periods that should be commas, and commas that should be periods, were changed only when they clearly had been misprinted (at the end of a paragraph or following a speaker's name in small-caps at the beginning of a line). some commas and semi-colons were printed so faintly that they appear to be periods or colons: some were found and corrected, but some almost certainly remain. the index and illustrated exhibits volumes of this series may not be available at project gutenberg. pages ix-xi: a three-page list of exhibit numbers has been omitted from this ebook. page : "mrs. oswald. no, i don't remember that lee had just" probably should have a period after "that". page : "mr. rankin. did our husband" probably should be "your". page : "no, she will probably be home in time to fix my supper?" probably should end with a period instead of a question mark. page : spurious quotation mark removed before "the money that came into my home that" page : missing closing quotation mark for: 'i said "no, reverend saunders,' page : "and you worked at the a. & p. during this period?" changed to "a&p" for consistency with other occurrences of that abbreviation. page : "copy for the original. i will undertake" the period probably should be a comma. www.history-matters.com. transcriber's note: stylized "u" is denoted as =u=. italics are represented by _underscores_. investigation of the assassination of president john f. kennedy hearings before the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy pursuant to executive order , an executive order creating a commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of the late president john f. kennedy and the subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and s.j. res. , th congress, a concurrent resolution conferring upon the commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas _volume_ xi united states government printing office washington, d.c. u.s. government printing office, washington: for sale in complete sets by the superintendent of documents, u.s. government printing office washington, d.c., president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy chief justice earl warren, _chairman_ senator richard b. russell senator john sherman cooper representative hale boggs representative gerald r. ford mr. allen w. dulles mr. john j. mccloy j. lee rankin, _general counsel_ _assistant counsel_ francis w. h. adams joseph a. ball david w. belin william t. coleman, jr. melvin aron eisenberg burt w. griffin leon d. hubert, jr. albert e. jenner, jr. wesley j. liebeler norman redlich w. david slawson arlen specter samuel a. stern howard p. willens[a] [a] mr. willens also acted as liaison between the commission and the department of justice. _staff members_ phillip barson edward a. conroy john hart ely alfred goldberg murray j. laulicht arthur marmor richard m. mosk john j. o'brien stuart pollak alfredda scobey charles n. shaffer, jr. biographical information on the commissioners and the staff can be found in the commission's _report_. preface the testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume xi: john edward pic, lee harvey oswald's halfbrother; edward john pic, jr., john edward pic's father; kerry wendell thornley, a marine corps acquaintance of oswald; george b. church, jr., mrs. george b. church, jr., and billy joe lord, who were on the boat oswald took when he left the united states for russia; alexander kleinlerer, mrs. donald gibson, ruth hyde paine, michael ralph paine, and gary taylor, who became acquainted with oswald and his wife after their return to texas in ; m. waldo george, the oswald's landlord at neely street in dallas; william kirk stuckey, who gave testimony relating to oswald's political views; horace elroy twiford and estelle twiford, who gave testimony relating to the date and route of oswald's trip to mexico in ; virginia h. james, james d. crowley, james l. ritchie, and carroll hamilton seeley, jr., of the u.s. state department; louis feldsott, who gave testimony relating to the purchase of the c rifle; j. philip lux and albert c. yeargan, jr., employees of sporting-goods stores in dallas; howard leslie brennan, who was present at the assassination scene; louis weinstock, an official of the communist party, vincent t. lee, an official of the fair play for cuba committee, and farrell dobbs, an official of the socialist workers party, who testified concerning contacts oswald had with their groups; virginia gray, who gave testimony concerning a letter written by oswald; albert f. staples, who gave testimony concerning records relating to marina oswald; katherine mallory, monica kramer, and rita naman, who encountered oswald while touring russia in ; john bryan mcfarland, meryl mcfarland, and pamela mumford, who were on the bus oswald took to mexico in the fall of ; dial duwayne ryder, hunter schmidt, jr., charles w. greener, gertrude hunter, edith whitworth, james lehrer, and mrs. lee harvey oswald, who gave testimony concerning an allegation that oswald had taken a rifle to a gun-repair shop in dallas; eugene d. anderson and james a. zahm, of the u.s. marine corps, experts on the subject of marksmanship; c. a. hamblen, robert gene fenley, and aubrey lee lewis, who gave testimony concerning an allegation that oswald was sending and receiving telegrams through a dallas western union office; dean adams andrews, jr., evaristo rodriguez, orest pena, ruperto pena, and sylvia odio, who testified concerning contacts they believed they had with oswald in new orleans and dallas under various circumstances; edwin a. walker, who testified concerning an attempt on his life on april , , and his attorney, clyde j. watts; ivan d. lee, an agent of the fbi, who gave testimony regarding photographs which he took of general walker's residence; bernard weissman, who paid for an advertisement concerning president kennedy which appeared in a dallas newspaper on november , ; warren allen reynolds, who was present in the vicinity of the tippit crime scene; priscilla mary post johnson, who interviewed oswald in moscow; eric rogers, who lived in the same building as oswald and his wife in new orleans in ; bardwell d. odum, james r. malley, and richard helms, who testified concerning a photograph which was shown to marguerite oswald for purposes of identification; peter megargee brown, who testified concerning records relating to oswald when he lived in new york during his youth; francis j. martello of the new orleans police department, who interrogated oswald in august ; john corporon, an official of a new orleans broadcasting station; mrs. j. v. allen, who testified concerning the schooling of oswald's brothers; lillian murret, oswald's aunt; and john w. burcham, emmett charles barbe, jr., hilda l. smith, j. rachal, bobb hunley, robert j. creel, helen p. cunningham, theodore frank gangl, gene graves, and robert l. adams, who testified concerning oswald's employment history. contents page preface v testimony of-- john edward pic edward john pic, jr kerry wendell thornley george b. church, jr mrs. george b. church, jr billy joe lord alexander kleinlerer mrs. donald gibson ruth hyde paine , m. waldo george william kirk stuckey horace elroy twiford estelle twiford virginia h. james james l. ritchie carroll hamilton seeley, jr louis feldsott j. philip lux howard leslie brennan albert c. yeargan, jr louis weinstock vincent t. lee farrell dobbs virginia gray albert f. staples katherine mallory monica kramer rita naman john bryan mcfarland and meryl mcfarland pamela mumford dial duwayne ryder hunter schmidt, jr charles w. greener gertrude hunter edith whitworth mrs. lee harvey oswald, edith whitworth, and gertrude hunter eugene d. anderson james a. zahm c. a. hamblen robert gene fenley aubrey lee lewis dean adams andrews, jr evaristo rodriguez orest pena ruperto pena sylvia odio michael ralph paine edwin a. walker and clyde j. watts bernard weissman warren allen reynolds priscilla mary post johnson eric rogers james lehrer bardwell d. odum james r. malley richard helms peter megargee brown gary taylor francis l. martello john corporon mrs. j. v. allen lillian murret john w. burcham emmett charles barbe, jr hilda l. smith j. rachal bobb hunley robert j. creel helen p. cunningham theodore frank gangl gene graves robert l. adams ivan d. lee james d. crowley exhibits introduced page allen exhibit no.: anderson exhibit no. brown exhibit no. burcham exhibit no.: creel exhibit no.: cunningham exhibit no. gangl exhibit no. graves exhibit no. gray exhibit no. greener exhibit no.: hunley exhibit no.: james exhibit no.: -a johnson exhibit no.: kramer exhibit no.: lee exhibit: a b lewis exhibit no. murret exhibit no. odio exhibit no. odum exhibit no. pena exhibit no. pic exhibit no.: -a -a -a -a -a -a -b -a -a -a -a -a -a -a -a -b -a -a -a -a -a -a -b -a -b -a -b -c -a -b -a -b -a -b -a -b -a -b -a -b -a -b -a -b -a -b -a -b -a -b -a -b -a -b -a -b -a -b -a -b -a -b rachal exhibit no.: rogers exhibit no. seeley exhibit no.: smith exhibit no. staples exhibit no. stuckey exhibit no.: thornley exhibit no.: twiford exhibit no. walker exhibit no.: weinstock exhibit no. weissman exhibit no. hearings before the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy testimony of john edward pic the testimony of john edward pic was taken at : a.m., on may , , at maryland avenue ne., washington, d.c., by messrs. john hart ely and albert e. jenner, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. jenner. sergeant pic, do you swear in your testimony you are about to give that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? mr. pic. yes; i do. mr. jenner. state your full name, please. mr. pic. staff sergeant john edward pic, sir, u.s. air force. mr. jenner. and that pic is spelled p-i-c-? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. give me your home address. mr. pic. westville, san antonio, tex. mr. jenner. you are a married man? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. give the full name of your wife including her married name, children, if any, ages and names and where born. mr. pic. my wife's maiden name is margaret dorothy fuhrman. my eldest is john edward pic, jr., may, . my daughter, janet ann pic, october ; james michael pic, february . mr. jenner. your wife margaret is--she was born where? mr. pic. new york city, sir. mr. jenner. her parents are native americans as well as she? mr. pic. no, sir; they are not. mr. jenner. what do you know of them? mr. pic. her father died; i never met the man while we were going together. her mother and father were separated. her mother was born in hungary, i think. her father was also, sir. mr. jenner. what do you understand as to when they came to this country? mr. pic. i have never inquired. it has probably been mentioned but i have forgotten. mr. jenner. was it your impression they had been here a good many years? mr. pic. yes, sir; they have seven children. the eldest being in her forties, i am pretty sure. mr. jenner. i see. when you met your wife she was living with her mother? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. where? mr. pic. east d street, new york city. mr. jenner. and you were at that time in the service? mr. pic. yes, sir; u.s. coast guard, assigned to u.s. coast guard cutter _rockaway_. mr. jenner. how old is mrs. pic? mr. pic. thirty, sir. she turned the st of december. mr. jenner. of ? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. she was born december , ? mr. pic. it may be , sir; i never remember. i am giving sworn testimony, i don't want to lie about my wife's birthday; it is either the st or d, i am pretty sure it is the st. mr. jenner. you are stationed where at present? mr. pic. i am attached to wilford hall, usaf hospital, lackland air force base, san antonio, tex. mr. jenner. do you--what is your particular assignment? mr. pic. i am ncoic, special procedures branch, department of pathology, wilford hall hospital. i have had this job since the th of february this year, and my other ones, i had another job when i talked to the secret service if you would be interested in that. mr. jenner. how long have you been at lackland? mr. pic. i have been there since august , sir. mr. jenner. my information is you were born in new orleans on january , ? mr. pic. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. you entered the coast guard. mr. pic. it was either or january , sir. mr. jenner. and you were then years of age? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and that was where? mr. pic. i processed my enlistment in fort worth. i was sworn into the coast guard in dallas, tex. mr. jenner. i think it might be well if we had your service history all in one spot so you go ahead and for my benefit speak a little more slowly so i can absorb it. mr. pic. all right, sir. approximately january , enlisted in coast guard in dallas, tex.; from january until may , i was in boot camp at u.s. coast guard training station, cape may, n.j. in may until january , i was attached to u.s. coast guard cutter _rockaway_. january until approximately june was stationed at u.s. coast guard training station, groton, conn. from june until january , i was stationed at u.s. coast guard base, st. george, staten island, n.y. from january until april , i was stationed at u.s. naval training station, bainbridge, md. april until february , i was stationed at u.s. coast guard psu, which is port security unit, ellis island, n.y. february until september , i was stationed aboard the u.s. coast guard cutter _firebush_. mr. jenner. were you at sea? mr. pic. yes, sir; this was classified as sea duty. it was really a buoy tender. mr. jenner. in what area? mr. pic. new york area, sir. mr. jenner. were you on ship all the time during that period? mr. pic. we would go out a day, come back the next; back and forth. mr. jenner. what i am really getting at is when you were ashore were you home? mr. pic. yes, sir; i went home the minute i got off the ship. mr. jenner. ok. mr. pic. september until april --these months i am pretty sure, i am certain are ok. mr. jenner. that is all right. mr. pic. i was stationed at u.s. naval hospital, portsmouth, va. my address when i lived there was, for months we lived with my sister-in-law in norfolk. mr. jenner. name her, please. mr. pic. mrs. emma parrish, i believe. mr. jenner. that was your wife's sister? mr. pic. that is correct, sir. then in january of we moved over to portsmouth, va., holliday street. april for about , weeks, i was then stationed again at st. george, staten island, and i received orders through the coast guard cutter _halfmoon_, and i was on the coast guard cutter _halfmoon_ until january . mr. jenner. and at sea or---- mr. pic. yes, sir; this was weather patrol duty. mr. jenner. you did come ashore when you got home? mr. pic. we pulled weather patrol, sir. we would be out or weeks and we would be in or weeks; and this i tolerated for months. on february , i joined the air force. i joined the air force on staten island, n.y. my address at this time was st. marks place, staten island, n.y. mr. jenner. in a few words, what was that transition. had you appeared---- mr. pic. my enlistment from the coast guard was complete, sir, and i decided that staying in the coast guard for or some odd years i wouldn't see much of my family and i understood the air force was a family man's outfit and i figured that was for me. so the day after i got out of the coast guard i joined the air force--no broken service. i was stationed at mitchel air force base, hempstead, long island, n.y., until october, end of september, october , and received orders to japan, apo , tachikawa, japan. mr. jenner. what year were you in? mr. pic. when i received my orders. mr. jenner. at this time when you were assigned to japan, that was the period of time also when your brother lee oswald, then in the marines, was also stationed in japan? mr. pic. to the best of my knowledge; yes, sir. mr. jenner. were you aware of that fact when you were stationed in japan? mr. pic. when i received my orders, i was under the impression he was in korea, sir. i knew he was overseas in the japanese-korean area. mr. jenner. had you had any communication from him prior to your going to japan? mr. pic. to the best of my knowledge, sir, sometime after he entered the service and went overseas i received a letter from him, very short note. he wrote a very short note. i no longer have this. mr. jenner. he entered the service in october of ? mr. pic. i was in the air force at mitchel air force base at the time. do you want me to finish with my military dates, and then i can go back? mr. jenner. yes. mr. pic. november , november until july, , i was stationed in japan. in august until the present date assigned to lackland, wilford hall air force hospital, lackland air force base. now, in the time period from--my mother paid us a christmas visit, sir, during the christmas holidays of , i believe, after lee had joined the marine corps. mr. jenner. yes; that would be a little over a year, that would be a year and months after he had joined the marine corps. mr. pic. yes. mr. jenner. where were you at that time? mr. pic. i was stationed at mitchel air force base, sir, and i believe my address was avenue c, east meadow, long island. i was living right next to the air force base. mr. jenner. had you known prior to that time, which presumably you did, that lee had entered the service? mr. pic. yes, sir; i knew this. mr. jenner. had enlisted in the marines? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and how had you learned that, through your mother? mr. pic. yes, sir; through my mother. mr. jenner. had you learned that at or about the time he actually enlisted? what were the circumstances? mr. pic. concerning what, sir? mr. jenner. his enlistment, when you learned about it, and how. he enlisted in october . he was then years old. mr. pic. my mother told me some way or another, i don't remember, sir. this is how i learned about it, either by phone call or by letter or some way. of course, i knew he would do it as soon as he reached the age. mr. jenner. all right. why did you know he would do it and tell us the circumstances upon which you, the facts upon which you base that observation? mr. pic. he did it for the same reasons that i did it and robert did it, i assume, to get from out and under. mr. jenner. out and under what? mr. pic. the yoke of oppression from my mother. mr. jenner. had that been a matter of discussion between you and for example, between you and your brother robert? mr. pic. no, sir; it was just something we understood about and never discussed. mr. jenner. and that would include lee as well as your brother robert; that is, you were all aware of it? mr. pic. i know this includes my brother robert. of course, when i was years old i didn't discuss things like this with lee, who was much younger. mr. jenner. please elaborate on that. you made a general statement---- mr. pic. ok. mr. jenner. which lawyers would call a mixed matter of conclusion and of fact and we would like to know the circumstances in general. mr. pic. ok. mr. jenner. they would probably go back for a good many years and it involves a personality. mr. pic. well, why don't i start with the death of lee's father, and i think really starting there i can tell you more of my own feelings and so forth. i can make one statement but to bring out the circumstances i think i should go back a little further. mr. jenner. all right. i will come back to this eventually. i will start you off this way. you are the brother of lee harvey oswald. mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and you are also the brother of robert? mr. pic. robert lee edward oswald, jr. mr. jenner. robert lee edward oswald? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. i notice in your statements that you refer to him as robert lee edward oswald. there are some references by others to robert e. lee oswald. mr. pic. yes. mr. jenner. your stepfather is generally referred to in the record and by witnesses as lee oswald. what was his full name? mr. pic. to the best of my knowledge, sir, it was robert lee edward oswald. mr. jenner. in any event your brother robert was a junior. mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. your brother robert was born april , ; is that to the best of your recollection? mr. pic. yes, sir; to the best of my recollection. mr. jenner. and your brother lee harvey oswald, october , ? mr. pic. that is correct, air. mr. jenner. your father's name? mr. pic. edward john pic, sir. mr. jenner. you are named after him except---- mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. the two surnames were reversed? mr. pic. yes, sir; i think it appears on here. yes, sir; i think it appears on here. yes, sir. john pic, jr., in fact his name is---- mr. jenner. edward john pic, jr. mr. pic. right. mr. jenner. and your mother was marguerite claverie oswald? mr. pic. claverie, marguerite frances. mr. jenner. and your mother and father were married what date? mr. pic. eighth day of august , sir. mr. jenner. and you are now reading from what? mr. pic. the marriage certificate of edward john pic, jr., and mrs. marguerite frances claverie. mr. jenner. that is a marriage certificate that you, that is among your personal papers? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. i am going to put an exhibit number on it. we will take a photograph of it and return the original to you. mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. mr. reporter, would you mark that as john pic exhibit no. . (john pic exhibit no. was marked for identification.) mr. jenner. i offer in evidence as john pic exhibit no. , a marriage certificate certified and dated august , , reflecting the marriage of edward john pic, jr. and miss marguerite frances claverie on the st day of august , in harrison county, miss. the marriage certificate does not show the town. sergeant, do you have any recollection of your father? mr. pic. my own father? mr. jenner. yes, sir. mr. pic. no, sir, i don't. mr. jenner. do you have any recollection of ever having seen your father? mr. pic. no, sir; i don't. mr. jenner. you were too young at the time but you eventually became aware of the fact that your mother, marguerite, and your father, edward, were divorced not long after your birth? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. did you become aware also of the fact that at the time of your birth that your father and mother were separated? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. this is the first information, i take it, then, in the utterance i have just made? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. that you have become aware that your mother and your father were separated at the time of your birth? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. you did learn about that? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. from your mother? mr. pic. from life magazine, sir. mr. jenner. i see. well, that is what i was really getting at. mr. pic. o.k. mr. jenner. it was only in the last or months that you learned that at the time of your birth your mother and your father were separated? mr. pic. that is correct, sir. i had always been told that they were divorced because he didn't want children. i didn't know anything else but that. i didn't know the time periods or anything else, sir. mr. jenner. your stepfather, when your mother and your stepfather--i will call him lee oswald because all the witnesses have referred to him as lee oswald, is that what he was called, do you have any recollection of it? mr. pic. i remember him being referred to as mr. oswald, sir. mr. jenner. mr. oswald? mr. pic. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. did you have a recollection at the time, at least--that is an inelegant question. do you recall your mother then marrying lee oswald or mr. oswald? mr. pic. i knew they were married, i don't recall the marriage ceremony. mr. jenner. what do you recall about him, sergeant? mr. pic. i recall he was an insurance salesman, sir, for the metropolitan life insurance co. he used to take me on his rounds for collections sometimes. he was very strict with us. we got whippings when we were bad. mr. jenner. you don't mean to claim that any of them was undeserved? mr. pic. no, sir. not in the least. mr. jenner. i should say this to you, i think. the witnesses all, everybody spoke well of your stepfather. mr. pic. that is how i remember him, sir. mr. jenner. you were born in new orleans? mr. pic. i was? mr. jenner. i am really putting a question mark at the end. mr. pic. yes, sir; i was born at new orleans. mr. jenner. and the family lived in new orleans? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. were you ever informed by anybody as to the business of your father, not your stepfather but your---- mr. pic. my real father? mr. jenner. yes; or occupation? mr. pic. from what i was told he was a stevedore and had once been a professional basketball player. this is all i remember ever hearing about him. mr. jenner. and this was information that came from primarily your mother? mr. pic. from my mother; yes, sir. mr. jenner. as a boy as you grew up in new orleans were you advised whether your father was alive, whether he was in new orleans or where he was or anything about him in that connection? mr. pic. being the nosy child i was, every once in a while i would look him up in the phone book so i knew he existed. mr. jenner. did you make any inquiries to find out what his business was or occupation? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. did you ever make any attempt to go to where he might be working or living to see what he looked like? mr. pic. i thought of it several times but i never made an attempt. mr. jenner. were you influenced in this in any respect by your mother? mr. pic. no, sir. i do remember on several occasions when we would visit the lillian murrets the name would come up that he had visited them, they would see him now and then and, of course, every time this cropped up it made me more inquisitive. mr. jenner. you mentioned lillian murret, that is your aunt, your mother's sister? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and her husband is charles "dutz" murret? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. in those early years, did your family reside somewhere near the murrets? i am going to get into all those addresses if i can, but i am thinking of the overall relationship geographically. mr. pic. as i recollect, the house was where mr. oswald died, all i know is that it was on the corner of alvez and galvez. mr. jenner. alvar? mr. pic. there you go. i think the street that ran next to it was galvez. mr. jenner. you are correct. mr. pic. this is the first real--i remember a first real house prior to this, where it was, sir, i don't know. i was about at the time. mr. jenner. but the first one you remember is the house on the corner that you have mentioned? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. do any of these addresses refresh your recollection? alvar? mr. pic. it may be the address of the house on alvez and galvez, i don't know. mr. jenner. no? mr. pic. i don't know, sir. no, sir. mr. jenner. alvar? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. paul morphy? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. gallier? mr. pic. the name, the streets sound--i may have heard it before. mr. jenner. gallier? mr. pic. only the street sounds familiar. mr. jenner. greenwood? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. north--my pronunciation will be bad--telemachus. mr. pic. no. mr. jenner. south cortez? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. you had to get away yesterday before a letter arrived which is at your base now, from mr. rankin, general counsel for the commission, confirming arrangements for you to appear and have your deposition taken before the commission, and enclosing with that letter copies of the legislation being senate joint resolution no. authorizing the creation of the commission, and a copy of president johnson's executive orders bringing the commission into existence no. , and a copy of the rules and regulations of the commission itself for the taking of depositions. when you return to lackland base you will find that letter probably in the possession of your commanding officer, and he will deliver it to you. the commission was authorized by the resolution i have mentioned and brought into existence by the president to investigate the facts and circumstances involved in and surrounding the assassination of president kennedy on november , , and we have understood from witnesses and other information we have, that you had and still have information bearing upon the facts and circumstances relative to that assassination, and it is this line of questioning that is directed toward that. we appreciate your appearing voluntarily from lackland base to appear here today. that letter, and the enclosures state that you are entitled to counsel if you want counsel present, and if you desire to have counsel present i can suspend this now. mr. pic. i have nothing to hide, sir. mr. jenner. go ahead, john. mr. ely. i just wanted to check on a couple of addresses with you, sir. hennesey, do you remember that? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. ely. what about taft place? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. you attended william frantz elementary school in dallas, did you not? mr. pic. new orleans. mr. jenner. with your brother, robert? mr. pic. what grade was i in, sir. he was two grades behind me. if i was in the third, he was there. if i wasn't, he wasn't. mr. jenner. well, the record shows you enrolled in william frantz school at north galvez on the th of september at which time you were - / years old. mr. pic. well, he wouldn't be there. mr. jenner. not at that time. he was then - / . do you recall transferring from william frantz elementary school to george washington elementary school? mr. pic. yes, sir; i do. mr. jenner. was that some time in late september or in november, perhaps of . mr. pic. well, prior to that we went to another place, sir. mr. jenner. your first elementary school was william frantz? mr. pic. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. and you attended william frantz until when, to the best of your recollection? mr. pic. i don't think i attended william frantz after---- mr. jenner. the death of your stepfather? mr. pic. yes, sir; somewhere around there. we went to a boarding school over in gretna, la. infant jesus college was the name of it, i believe, both robert and i, and we hated the place. mr. jenner. that was a very short period of time? mr. pic. yes, sir; because we hated the place. mr. jenner. i will get to that in a moment. mr. pic. i don't know whether it was before washington or after. i think it was before washington. mr. jenner. perhaps i can refresh your recollection this way. your stepfather died in august of . you were then living in the house at the corner of alvar and galvez which you recall as alvez and galvez. do you recall that some months after the death of your father and in the following year, the late winter or early spring, that you moved from that house? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. do you recall a physician by the name of mancuso? mr. pic. it may or may not be familiar, sir. i don't know. mr. jenner. he was the doctor who delivered lee, and also the man who rented the house in which you had been living. do you recall that? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. you do recall leaving that house in which you had been living at the time of the death of your stepfather? mr. pic. yes, sir; sometime afterward. mr. jenner. do you recall that it was a matter of months and not a matter of years? mr. pic. it had to be months, sir, because i have got something else for here. mr. jenner. when you moved from the house in which you had been living at the time of the death of your stepfather, do you recall moving to congress street? mr. pic. no, sir. i remember moving to a bartholomew street. mr. jenner. that bartholomew street, i will get to that in a moment, perhaps to refresh your recollection was a little house that your mother purchased on contract. mr. pic. what, bartholomew? mr. jenner. yes. mr. pic. i remember that house. mr. jenner. bartholomew. mr. pic. that could be it, sir. mr. jenner. before you moved to bartholomew you lived, did you not, at congress? mr. pic. i don't remember, sir. mr. jenner. your mother didn't sell the alvar street house until january of . mr. pic. i thought it was sold the day we moved out. mr. jenner. it was rented by dr. mancuso the day you moved out, and ultimately your mother regained possession in january , and he then purchased that house substantially contemporaneously, in january of . mr. pic. can i ask you a question? mr. jenner. yes, sir. mr. pic. being mr. oswald was in the insurance business, and being i was rather young, how did he leave her, i have no idea. mr. jenner. well, i will answer that question. you tell me what you thought at the time and what your impression now is. mr. pic. well, he didn't leave her much is what i was told. mr. jenner. was that the feeling you had at the time? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. well, he did leave a small insurance policy, and the house on alvar, on the corner of alvar and galvez, which was being purchased under contract, and that is about all. i take it, it is your recollection, sergeant, that when you and your mother and robert and lee, who was then an infant child, just a few months old, left the house on alvar you entered some institution. mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and what is your recollection of that institution? mr. pic. i believe it was in gretna, la. mr. jenner. spell that for the reporter. mr. pic. g-r-e-t-n-a, a whole bunch of little towns right across the river from new orleans, west wego, and a couple of others, that was one of these, i think it was gretna, it might be in one of that group. mr. jenner. yes. mr. pic. and the name of the school was infant jesus college and it was a catholic school, sir. and us not being catholics they lowered the boom on us. mr. jenner. that would be you and your brother? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and you were at that time just about years old. was it before your th birthday or what? mr. pic. i wouldn't remember that, sir. mr. jenner. it was in , however? mr. pic. i thought it was in the end of . it is either the end of or early . mr. jenner. is it your recollection that---- mr. pic. we were still living on alvez and galvez when we went to that school. mr. jenner. all right. that is what i wanted to straighten out. your mother put you and robert in the catholic boarding school before the family actually moved out of the alvar home? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. all right. how long were you boys at that catholic institution? mr. pic. my best recollection is that it was to the end of the school year, . mr. jenner. that would be the summer of ? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. all right. your mother was not working at that time, was she? mr. pic. as far as i know; no, sir. mr. jenner. what is your recollection as to why you were placed in that institution inasmuch as your mother was not working, and at that time you were still living or she was, with lee at alvar? mr. pic. my impression then, sir; i don't know, i can give you my impressions now---- mr. jenner. are these impressions that you are about to give me and i do want you to give them to me, gathered from recollection of the course of events over a period of years? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. all right. based on discussions in the family over a period of years? mr. pic. based mainly on experiences in contact with my mother over a period of years, sir. mr. jenner. all right; tell us about them. mr. pic. i think it was probably because it was cheaper to maintain robert and i over at this school than it was to maintain us at home. i mean we boarded there, they fed us, went to school. i don't know what the fee was but this was the impression i have now. mr. jenner. while you boys were at the catholic school, did your mother and lee leave, if you have a recollection of this, the alvar home? this would be sometime between the first of january , and the time you finished the second semester, let us say. mr. pic. if this house between alvez and bartholomew is a green house. mr. jenner. green? mr. pic. green, i can remember it. you can tell me if it was green, i don't know, sir. i remember a green house somewhere in this time period. mr. jenner. let me get at that this way. you and robert were lodged eventually in the bethlehem---- mr. pic. bethlehem orphans home, somewhere on st. peters street, new orleans. i think this was in , though, this happened. mr. jenner. evangelical lutheran bethlehem orphan asylum. mr. pic. right. that is the name. mr. jenner. known as the bethlehem children's home? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and--all right, now, you entered there on the d of january . is that your recollection? mr. pic. that is my recollection. mr. jenner. the winter of ? mr. pic. yes, sir; i know it was a little bit after the war was declared. mr. jenner. all right. now, taking that date, january , and going back---- mr. pic. ok. mr. jenner. to the end of the school year in ---- mr. pic. well, the school in september --i think i put in about a year and a half in this washington elementary school after we were taken out of infant jesus college. mr. jenner. at that time didn't you live at congress street in new orleans? mr. pic. sir, if you have a map of new orleans and show me where this is maybe i can remember, but i don't remember anything but bartholomew. mr. jenner. for the purposes of refreshing your recollection the records of the public school system of new orleans reflect the following: that you were enrolled at william frantz school located at north galvez when you were - / years old on september , . you continued there thereafter until september , . mr. pic. september . mr. jenner. these records would show that you were discharged from the william frantz elementary school on january , . mr. pic. that is better. mr. jenner. and that you reentered william frantz on september , , and you transferred to george washington elementary school on november , . at the time of the transfer you lived at congress street. your mother purchased the house at bartholomew on the th of march . and she sold it on the th of january . with that information, does that serve to refresh your recollection that the course of circumstances might have been these. i will state them and then you correct me. i don't want you to take my word for it but this is solely for the purpose of refreshing your recollection, if it does refresh your recollection. your stepfather died in august of . in the winter of , early, sometime in january , your mother took you and your brother, robert, out of school, you were in the william frantz elementary school at that time, and placed you in the catholic school. mr. pic. i think prior or right after this catholic school there was another school which was in downtown new orleans. it was a day school. she would bring us there in the morning and take us home at night. i don't remember too much. we didn't stay there very long. mr. jenner. it is your definite recollection, however, that you were at the catholic orphanage school in the winter of , which would be approximately months after the death of your stepfather. mr. pic. no, sir; i don't make that statement. i make the statement that it is my definite recollection i was in the infant jesus college school while we lived in this house on alvez. what months these were, sir, i don't know. mr. jenner. and it is the best of your recollection at the present time that that was the school period ending in the summer of ? mr. pic. i think so, sir. mr. jenner. what is your recollection as to the school you attended commencing the school year september ? did you return to william frantz? mr. pic. i went to george washington--if i was there at william frantz, i don't remember. well, the dates you give me it would be---- mr. jenner. a short time? mr. pic. right. i remember george washington. mr. jenner. were you living at home at that time? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. was that congress? mr. pic. i don't know, sir. mr. jenner. would a map of new orleans help you any? mr. pic. possible; i don't remember this congress, i remember a green house, this was a green house i remember. what street it was on, i don't know. but i do remember something about a green house. mr. jenner. was it in the french quarter, in the old city? mr. pic. the way i remember the french quarter is down in here somewhere, and this is certainly not the french quarter. here is this gretna. it may be in algiers that infant jesus, one of these two, either gretna or algiers. i think it was gretna. mr. jenner. your mother said it was algiers, and there is evidence that it was located in algiers. mr. pic. ok, sir; algiers. i know it was across the river. mr. jenner. you do have a recollection, however, of living in a house on bartholomew? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. do you happen to remember, you don't remember now the exact address? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. it was at bartholomew. did you live in the bartholomew house? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. was it before or during, or when was it with respect to when you and robert entered the bethlehem orphanage? mr. pic. we was living there when i went to washington. mr. jenner. george washington elementary school at st. cloud? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. our records show your mother purchased the bartholomew property in march of , march to be exact. mr. pic. when i was at infant jesus college, i couldn't very well remember that congress street because i probably--we wasn't living there. mr. jenner. you weren't living---- mr. pic. at home. mr. jenner. no. mr. pic. so, i am afraid i can't remember that congress street address. i remember a green house. mr. jenner. a green house. mr. pic. yes; that is about the best i can do. mr. jenner. in any event it was a house different from or other than the alvar? mr. pic. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. in which you were living at the time of the death of your stepfather? mr. pic. yes. mr. jenner. that is good enough. you remember being with your brother robert in the bethlehem orphanage? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and your initial utterance voluntarily was that you entered there in . mr. pic. yes, sir; it was right after the war. mr. jenner. the records show that it was in the month of january . you were then years old so you might have some reasonable recollection of it. tell us the circumstances and what you understand about it. mr. pic. well, while we lived on this bartholomew street my mother opened in the front room a little store called oswald's notion shop. i think she sold spools of thread and needles and things like this. mr. jenner. did she sell any sweets or candy for children? mr. pic. yes, sir; i remember we used to go in there and swipe it. mr. jenner. was your mother working at that time other than managing or operating this little notions and sweet shop? mr. pic. not that i remember, sir. mr. jenner. and it was in a segment of the home at bartholomew? mr. pic. yes, sir; it was the very front room. mr. jenner. and you boys were then attending school where? mr. pic. washington. mr. jenner. when i say you boys, it is your brother robert and yourself. mr. pic. yes, sir; i am sure robert was attending school then. it was washington. mr. jenner. yes. your brother robert entered grammar school on september , . that was william frantz so he was of school age at the time we are talking about. describe that little house to us on bartholomew. was it a new house? mr. pic. no, sir; it wasn't new. i guess it had about a minimum of two bedrooms, rather large back yard. we had a dog, and the dog's name was sunshine. there was a fence ran down it. i remember the house. mr. jenner. was it a nice neighborhood? mr. pic. it wasn't as nice as alvez and galvez. mr. jenner. at that time. i see. now, you lead me to ask something i should have asked heretofore, tell me about the neighborhood at alvar. what do you recall about that? mr. pic. they were all brand new houses. in fact, i think we were the first ones to move in on the street, and most of the other ones were under construction there. william frantz was building a new school. it was a rather nice neighborhood. middle income, i guess, at that time. mr. jenner. and the bartholomew home was not as new and the neighborhood was not quite the same as at alvar, but what kind of a neighborhood was it? was it a reasonably nice place, area? you describe it. don't ever let me put words in your mouth. mr. pic. well, digging back in my sociology courses, i would say it was upper-lower class, if there is such a classification. mr. jenner. do you remember any neighbors at bartholomew? mr. pic. yes, sir; there was a milkman, his name was bud. right on the other corner from bartholomew, on st. cloud was a theater, i think was called the nola, and he lived behind this theater, he was our milkman, and my mother and his wife and him were rather friendly, and we used to go on trips on the weekends to the parks and things like this. mr. jenner. now, i ask you again what you recall to have been the circumstances under which you entered the bethlehem orphanage, you and your brother robert? mr. pic. i can only give you impressions, i have now, sir. mr. jenner. are these impressions that you gained now, gained from an attempt to refresh your recollection? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. as to the circumstances at that time? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. all right. mr. pic. i think properly the notion store wasn't a booming business, and she had to go to work and since we were reminded we were orphans all the time, the right place to be would be in an orphan home. mr. jenner. your mother did remind you repeatedly that you were orphans? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. that sort of thing. would you elaborate on that, please? mr. pic. well, sir; she constantly reminded us we were orphans, that she didn't have the money to support us in everything, and she opened a notion store to make money, and she wasn't making money, and i remember she closed it and went to work at about the same time that we entered bethlehem. mr. jenner. in january , lee was a little over years old, is that correct; he was born october . mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. you were then and your brother robert was , i am talking about approximate ages now. mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. i think you entered bethlehem before your tenth birthday. mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and a few months before his eighth birthday. did lee eventually join you at bethlehem? mr. pic. yes, sir; he did. the exact date i don't remember. i know he was there for only a matter of months. he wasn't there as long as robert and i was. mr. jenner. i show you a document i will have marked as john pic exhibit no. , please, for purposes of identification which appears to be a xerox reproduction of an application blank executed by mrs. marguerite oswald and related minutes for admission of lee oswald to the evangelical lutheran bethlehem orphan asylum association, dated at new orleans, december , , and showing entry of lee oswald into the orphanage asylum on the th day of december . (john pic exhibit no. was marked for identification.) mr. jenner. sergeant, i direct your attention to the line on which appears what purports to be the signature of "mrs. marguerite oswald." you are familiar with the handwriting, are you not? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. of your mother marguerite? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and with her signature? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. drawing on that familiarity, is that signature the signature of your mother? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. i offer in evidence the document now identified as john pic exhibit no. . having done that, sergeant, does that refresh your recollection as to the time when your brother lee oswald was admitted to the orphanage asylum? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. do you recall it to have been sometime in late or thereabout? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. what is your recollection as to when he was--he joined you at the orphan asylum. mr. pic. i remember we were there a while, sir. he came, and to the best of my recollection he didn't stay but months at the longest, and left again. i don't think--he wasn't there as long as we were. mr. jenner. i direct your attention, sergeant, to the fact your mother has listed on this application her address as sherwood forest drive. mr. pic. that address is familiar to me. sherwood forest drive part of it, the numbers are not. mr. jenner. i wouldn't expect you to remember the exact number but the street you do recall? mr. pic. yes, sir; i do. in fact, the murrets lived on the same street. mr. jenner. is it your impression then that the address of sherwood forest drive was probably the address of the murrets? mr. pic. no, sir; i wouldn't say that. mr. jenner. do you recall your mother moving out of bartholomew? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and so that it is your recollection that sometime between your entry into the bethlehem orphanage at which time the family lived at bartholomew, that your mother and lee or at least your mother left, it must have been your mother and lee, left the bartholomew residence and moved to another home on sherwood drive? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. tell us about that. you put it in sequence as best you can. mr. pic. if there was anything between bartholomew and sherwood forest drive, i don't remember, sir. i do remember the sherwood forest drive house, and if i remember right it was three or four doors down from the murrets. mr. jenner. where would that be in your recollection with respect to bartholomew? mr. pic. oh, that is way across town, sir. that is in the city park area. in fact, it was only a block from city park. mr. jenner. and lee was then--your mother had him with her because at this time, december , he was just a little over years old. mr. pic. yes. mr. jenner. the records show that the bartholomew home was sold on the th of january . does that refresh your recollection as to sequence that prior to her sale of the house she moved out of the house and over to sherwood drive and the placing of you boys in the bethlehem orphanage school was all part of the picture? she sold the bartholomew house, entered you boys in the orphanage in january . mr. pic. you want to know if i think she sold the house before we were placed in the home? mr. jenner. yes. mr. pic. i don't know, sir. mr. jenner. but after you were in the home, that is the bethlehem orphanage home that house was disposed of in some fashion at least? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and she moved into another house on sherwood drive? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. by the way, do you remember anybody, an uncle of yours by the name of john oswald? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. or---- mr. pic. i remember an uncle on my stepfather's side. i don't recall his name, sir. mr. jenner. w. s. oswald, is that familiar to you? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. but other than an uncle on your stepfather's side, that is you don't recall his name, his first name? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. his name was oswald, though? mr. pic. i know it was on his side, sir. it may have been his sister, i don't know. maybe his brother-in-law. mr. jenner. but you don't know. i will identify as john pic exhibit no. another application blank, this one dated january , , for admission of robert edward oswald, jr., to the evangelical lutheran bethlehem orphan asylum, which is dated january , , and direct you, sergeant to the signature appearing on that exhibit reading "mrs. lee oswald." are you familiar with that signature? mr. pic. that is the first time i have ever seen her use the word "lee." mr. jenner. but the handwriting; that is her handwriting? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. i offer in evidence a document now identified as john pic exhibit no. . (john pic exhibit no. was marked for identification.) mr. jenner. now, directing your attention to that exhibit which shows the entry of your brother robert in the orphanage asylum on january , , is it a fact that you and your brother robert entered the asylum at the same time? mr. pic. to the best of my recollection, yes, sir. mr. jenner. i direct your attention to this. there appears in the line designated "mother" written in longhand marguerite claverie oswald, address, bartholomew, and then right above it there is written pauline street--january . do you recall your mother moving with lee to a place on pauline street in january of ? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. all you recall is that she and lee did move to a place, another place from the bartholomew address? mr. pic. well, it shows it there. i thought it was sherwood forest, i don't know. mr. jenner. it might have been shortly after that? mr. pic. this is not familiar at all, sir. mr. jenner. that is the pauline street address is not at all familiar? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. is any of this application blank, that is any of the longhand on it, in the hand of your mother other than her signature? mr. pic. i wouldn't know, sir. mr. jenner. your religion is lutheran, is it not? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and you were baptized in the lutheran church, were you not? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. your recollection is that your brother lee was taken from the orphanage home before you and robert were? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. you were released in june of ? mr. pic. i have--i may have. if you say it was june, sir, ok. it was may or june. mr. jenner. may or june of . and does it refresh your recollection that your brother lee was released from that home the previous january, as a matter of fact on---- mr. pic. he didn't go when we went and he didn't leave, all i know is he didn't enter when we entered and he didn't leave when we left. it was between those periods the best i can state. mr. jenner. the record (pic exhibit) shows he was released from the home on the th of january, (pic exhibit no. a), and that he entered the home on the th of december, (pic exhibit no. ). so he was there years. mr. pic. no, sir; that is not right. mr. jenner. that doesn't square with your recollection, you mean? mr. pic. no, sir. he may have been in and out of there off and on but he didn't spend full time there that long. you see she may have pulled him out there for a couple of weeks to stay with the murrets, and things or even longer and still have him charged against bethlehem. mr. jenner. i misspoke when i said years. it would be the period from december , , to january , , which is year and month. mr. pic. no, sir; that would only be a year and month. mr. jenner. for the record then that span of time for your brother between january , , when he was released, and december , , when he entered is approximately months. mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. that is about what you remember, isn't it? mr. pic. well, i remember it about months. but i guess that is right. i know he wasn't in there a full months at a clip. he was in and out of there in months. at that school if your parents wanted to take you home for a couple or weeks they took you home for a couple or weeks. mr. jenner. and you do remember your mother did that? mr. pic. sure, i am sure he stayed at the murrets also. mr. jenner. well, the murrets recall that. now, i show you an exhibit which we will identify as john pic exhibit no. which for purposes of identification is a xerox duplication of a letter from mrs. marguerite oswald to the reverend harold of the evangelical lutheran orphanage asylum dated february , , addressed victor, dallas, tex. it is in longhand. would you please examine it for the purpose of answering a question i will put to you as to whether it is in the handwriting of your mother? mr. pic. it appears to me, sir; to be her handwriting. mr. jenner. i offer in evidence john pic exhibit no. . (john pic exhibit no. was marked for identification.) mr. jenner. i have marked as john pic exhibit no. another application for admission to evangelical lutheran bethlehem orphan asylum association dated december , , for the admission of john edward pic and robert oswald to that orphanage, but the information on the application is confined to john edward pic. unfortunately, mr. pic, this application, for some reason by oversight was not signed by your mother. do you remember a pastor by the name of rev. j. h. nau? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. at the redeemer lutheran church? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. by the way, mr. reporter, for purposes of the record, there appears on this application the fact that the marriage of sergeant pic's mother marguerite and his father edward john pic, jr. was at gulfport, la. mr. pic. mississippi. mr. jenner. no, it says gulfport, la. here and should have been gulfport, miss.? mr. pic. yes; mississippi. mr. jenner. do you remember a pastor by the name of reverend scherer? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. the trinity evangelical church. mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. do you remember a rev. m. r. lecron? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. of the redeemer church? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. by the way, all you boys were christened in the lutheran church, faith, were you not? mr. pic. i don't know or remember if lee was. i don't know about lee. mr. jenner. the record of the bethlehem children's home show that he was baptized by the rev. m. r. lecron of the redeemer lutheran church. the exact date, however, is not given. mr. pic. they even have his birthday wrong there. mr. jenner. day. they have it as the th whereas it was th. as a matter of fact, your mother on one of her papers fixes it on the th. mr. pic. so does one of the letters. mr. jenner. i offer john pic exhibit no. in evidence. (john pic exhibit no. was marked for identification.) mr. jenner. we will adjourn now and reconvene at o'clock. (whereupon, at : p.m., the proceeding was recessed.) testimony of john edward pic resumed the proceeding was reconvened at : p.m. mr. jenner. all right, sergeant. do you recall along about this time that you were in the bethlehem orphanage your mother became acquainted with a man by the name of e. a. ekdahl and subsequently married? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and it was about this time, around , that you boys were withdrawn from the bethlehem orphanage and taken to texas? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. now, i will go back a little bit because i want you to put it in sequence. before we adjourned for noon recess, i covered the matter of the period of the birth of lee, the death of your stepfather lee oswald, and then brought you up to the bethlehem school and stopped there. to the extent you have impressions commencing with, let us say, your entry into grammar school, at that time your stepfather lee oswald was alive. mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. you were, when you entered grammar school that was kindergarten you were only four and half years old. mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. do you recall moving from place to place before you finally settled in---- mr. pic. i just remember one residence prior to alvez and galvez. mr. jenner. i see. mr. pic. where that would have been, i don't remember. mr. jenner. ok. but you sort of settled down in alvar? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. that your stepfather had purchased that home in ? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and then you went along, he died about a year and a half later after he purchased it. take us from the time that your stepfather died and tell us your impressions of how the home life changed; if it did change, what effect, if any, you observed that you now can recall that circumstances had on your mother; and what kind of life you and the boys began to lead as distinguished from the life you led while your stepfather was alive if there is any change now. i don't want to put any words in your mouth. mr. pic. well, we were from the time of his death, placed in two boarding schools prior to bethlehem, this infant jesus, and the other one i don't recall the name of, the other one being a day school. mr. jenner. sort of a day school, your mother took you in the morning and brought you back. that is two of the boys, not lee? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. he was almost a suckling child? mr. pic. i don't remember. i don't see how he could have been there. now this day school was prior to infant jesus, it had to be. we went to infant jesus and out of there back home for a year or so where we attended washington and then into bethlehem. like i said before, we were constantly reminded we were orphans and had financial difficulty. mr. jenner. excuse me, sir; when you just talked about washington and bethlehem you put washington before bethlehem, and this morning you put washington into bethlehem. mr. pic. no, sir; we went to washington before bethlehem. mr. jenner. i think you will find that the record of this morning, i am pretty sure, will show a different sequence. that is your impression, that you went into bethlehem a few months after your stepfather died? mr. pic. no, sir; infant jesus. mr. jenner. infant jesus. i see. go ahead. you are right. mr. pic. we were constantly reminded we were orphans and there were financial difficulties, and i was rather young, i don't remember too much about this, but it was always something to do about money problems. we kind of liked infant jesus, it wasn't bad at all. we had a pretty good childhood while we lived on bartholomew street, there were no major problems there. and even at bethlehem we both, robert and i enjoyed bethlehem. i mean we were all there with the kids with the same problems, same age groups, and everything. things for myself became worse when lee came there, that is why i know he wasn't there too long. mr. jenner. tell us about it? mr. pic. at bethlehem they had a ruling that if you had a younger brother or sister there they had bowel movements in their pants the older brothers would clean them up, and they would yank me out of classes in school to go do this and, of course, this peeved me very much, and i wasn't but or or . mr. jenner. he was only years old? mr. pic. yes; but i was . and they did quite a few things like this. if there was an older brother or sister there they had to take care of the younger child. the people there didn't all the time. mr. jenner. was this -year spread as the years went on between you and lee, did that affect your relationship with him as distinguished from your relationship with your brother robert who was only years younger? mr. pic. well, anything i was involved in robert always was. lee was left out because of the age difference. robert and i went to all these homes together and all the schools together. lee didn't, of course. mr. jenner. during the course of the years your companions and friends, i assume were different, that is you and robert on the one hand? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and lee on the other? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. his life differed a little from yours too, didn't it, that is at the outset of this early period your mother, except for this period at bethlehem, when he was there, except for his being withdrawn for a few weeks at a time, he was largely with her? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. living with her? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and did she express problems on her part with him? mr. pic. well, she referred how would she work and take care of a child and things like this, both. it would seem that the problem with robert and i was easier to solve than the problem with lee. mr. jenner. i interrupted you. go ahead with your account. mr. pic. well, up until we left bethlehem, i can only recall three places of employment for mrs. oswald, one being oswald's notion store which was - , thereabouts. mr. jenner. while you had the bethlehem house? mr. pic. no; that was before bethlehem. mr. jenner. i don't mean bethlehem, bartholomew street? mr. pic. yes; after we were placed in bethlehem she was a manager of princess hosiery on canal street and pittsburgh plate and glass co., i don't remember which one came first. mr. jenner. myrtle evans referred to pittsburgh plate and lillian murret referred to pittsburgh plate. you do recall that? mr. pic. yes, sir; in fact, i think at the time she worked at pittsburgh plate she was going with mr. ekdahl. in fact, i think i remember him driving us over there or something once. mr. jenner. when you were at bethlehem, did your aunt lillian ever have occasion to visit? mr. pic. she never visited us that i recall. we visited her many times. mr. jenner. while you were at bethlehem? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. do you recall myrtle evans visiting on any occasion? mr. pic. i don't remember. wait a minute. myrtle evans, is she kind of heavy? mr. jenner. she is now. mr. pic. she was then too, that is the same one. mr. jenner. energetic? mr. pic. yes; i remember a myrtle. mr. jenner. she had taken some accounting and---- mr. pic. the name is familiar, sir. i can't place the lady. mr. jenner. she had been a girl friend of your mother's? mr. pic. yes; i wouldn't speculate whether she visited us or not at bethlehem, sir. mr. jenner. do you remember the evanses coming over to see you when you were at covington, one time? mr. pic. i don't recollect, sir. mr. jenner. do you recollect myrtle evans coming and visiting when you first went to texas? mr. pic. sir; i don't remember myrtle evans that much. the name myrtle is familiar to me. just like this woman that worked at holmes for years is familiar to me. where i had seen her and different places? mr. jenner. h-o-l-m-e-s? mr. pic. yes, sir; this is a department store in new orleans. mr. jenner. of course you would recall the murret family. mr. pic. yes; i recall them very good. mr. jenner. there were a couple of those children about your age and robert's, is that right? mr. pic. i can only--let's see, charles, there is marilyn and charles. mr. jenner. marilyn is the youngest? mr. pic. marilyn is the youngest, no, sir; boogie is the youngest. mr. jenner. b-o-o-g-i-e? mr. pic. what is he doing now. i heard he was playing semipro ball. mr. jenner. no. he is not doing that any more. is boogie john? mr. pic. no, sir; i think---- mr. jenner. one is a dentist, one is with squibb, gene is a seminarian. mr. pic. gene is the priest. gene is the one who is my age or thereabouts. boogie was closer to robert's age. mr. jenner. she had five children? mr. pic. right. mr. jenner. marilyn. mr. pic. joyce. mr. jenner. marilyn, joyce, john, gene---- mr. pic. charles. mr. jenner. and charles. they are all alive? mr. pic. right. mr. jenner. that was a fairly lively family, apparently all nice people. mr. pic. yes, sir; we enjoyed going there very much. mr. jenner. how did lee get along with them? mr. pic. well, i don't know how he got along with them. i know he was placed there several times to stay for a while. i don't know if the people resented this or was glad to have him or not. mr. jenner. well, they were glad to have him. they appeared to me to be generous people. mr. pic. yes, sir. we always could count on our uncle for a dollar or two. mr. jenner. yes. i take it from the questions i asked you this morning that you had little or no contact with your stepfather's family, with the oswald family? mr. pic. there was no contact that i remember at all, sir, after his death. prior to his death, there was quite a bit of contact from what i remember. i remember maybe it was his mother, grandmother we would visit. he had this other oswald who was either a brother or sister or something, we visited these people. i remember the older woman we visited always gave us kids, including me, it was just robert and i, a whole bunch of toys for christmas every christmas. but after his death, there was no contact at all, sir. mr. jenner. what is your impression as to why that took place? mr. pic. i will speculate and say that---- mr. jenner. give me the impression you have rather than speculate. mr. pic. they couldn't get along with mrs. oswald. mr. jenner. with your mother? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. do you recall an incident, sergeant, when your mother went to work in , and she had a couple, a mr. and mrs. roach taking care of lee who was then---- mr. pic. what was roach's first name, sir? mr. jenner. thomas. mr. pic. what street did he live on? mr. jenner. pauline. mr. pic. no, sir; i don't. the only one i could think of that may have taken care of lee was this milkman bud and his wife. mr. jenner. to help refresh your recollection, it is a fact that your mother lived with lee at pauline street in , and a couple present there by the name of mr. and mrs. thomas roach, thomas and dora roach. they had been living on de lessups street in new orleans, in the block. mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. and moved into pauline, or your mother moved into pauline street with them. there was a whole question as to who was the renter, whether it was the roaches or your mother? mr. pic. no, sir; this i don't recall at all. mr. jenner. and it wasn't long after they were there that some difficulty arose with respect to lee and that ended that. it was about weeks or a month, months. but you have no recollection of that? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. all right. the question i asked you and which i keep interrupting in was to give me your impressions of change, if any, with the coming of the death of your stepfather, and you were in the course of recounting that. mr. pic. well, it struck me or it strikes me that we became lower and lower in the class structure. mr. jenner. as your financial status---- mr. pic. and our class structure, both. mr. jenner. would you elaborate on that? your financial status went down? mr. pic. right. mr. jenner. and then you say lower in the class structure? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. tell me about that? mr. pic. i would say we were in the middle classes while we lived on alvez. mr. jenner. while your father was alive? mr. pic. and, being we moved to bartholomew, and being in orphan homes, i think we went to the upper lower class, one class structure dropped, two class structures dropped, something like that. mr. jenner. were you conscious of that even as a -year-old? mr. pic. well, i realized that we weren't living as good as we used to, sir. mr. jenner. go ahead. mr. pic. well, once we were placed in an orphan home, and we were with our own kind, so to speak. i had no feelings whatsoever. i mean, we enjoyed that place. they were rather strict but we enjoyed it. we had quite a bit of freedom even though they were strict. we would sneak out of the place at night and do all kinds of childish things. but robert and i enjoyed it. mr. jenner. i am thinking more of your relations with your mother. was her personality affected by the death of your stepfather? mr. pic. probably she confided and put to me most of her problems since she didn't have a husband to do this with, always referring to me as the oldest and things like this. when we were in bethlehem we didn't see that much of her. mr. jenner. i see. mr. pic. maybe once every weeks, that would be the most often. maybe once in a while she would drop around. mr. jenner. while you were at bethlehem did you visit the murrets? mr. pic. yes, sir; several times, lots of times. you see the home once or twice a year, would take us to the city park there in new orleans. we would get on the rides and naturally the murrets were right there, and so we would rent bikes for free. it was on the home and i would ride over to their house and visit with them a while, so did robert. whenever we had a chance we were more than glad to go there. mr. jenner. while at least through the bethlehem orphanage period your present recollection is you accommodated to circumstances and within the limits of the circumstances your impression is that you lived a reasonably happy life? mr. pic. we enjoyed it. mr. jenner. like all children you accommodated yourself to the circumstances? mr. pic. yes. mr. jenner. well, i think probably a good new start off point is mr. ekdahl. tell us your recollection of him, what led up, your present recollection of the circumstances which brought him into your lives and when you first were aware of his existence and what your circumstance was at that time, what your mother's was? mr. pic. okay. mr. jenner. give times as best you can. mr. pic. if you can date for me when i had my appendix out i can practically date for you mr. ekdahl's---- mr. jenner. i am afraid i can't. were you at bethlehem orphanage? mr. pic. yes; i was at bethlehem so it would be either or , and i am sure she was at pittsburgh at that time. mr. jenner. pittsburgh plate? mr. pic. right. and it was right after i had my appendix out that he appeared on the scene. and she visited us more often when she was going with him. mr. jenner. and she brought him with her, did she? mr. pic. yes; he had the car. mr. jenner. by the way, did your mother have an automobile during this period following your stepfather's death? mr. pic. i don't think so, sir. mr. jenner. but mr. ekdahl did have an automobile? mr. pic. yes, sir; he had a buick. mr. jenner. and your mother visited you more often? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. all right. mr. pic. and they on weekends took us to covington. i remember once, it may have been more. mr. jenner. all right. i wanted to ask you about that. while your stepfather was still alive, did you occasionally visit covington? mr. pic. yes, sir; we did. mr. jenner. covington, as i understand it, covington, la., is sort of a summer resort area, is it not? mr. pic. yes, sir; it is on the--it is north of new orleans on the northern shore of lake pontchartrain, and the murrets used to go to mandeville, which is about miles closer to new orleans than covington was, and we used to visit them back and forth during the summer. mr. jenner. do you recall the names of any of those people that you--whose homes you, the summer resort homes that you rented during the summer period? mr. pic. to the best of my recollection, sir, we were in cabins at these tourist places. we were never at anybody's home. the murrets were, i believe, at somebody's home in mandeville. they had a large house there. mr. jenner. does mrs. benny c-o-m-m-a-n-c-e, is that name familiar to you? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. at west th street, covington, familiar to you? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. does the address vermont stimulate your recollection over in covington? mr. pic. no, sir; if it was this time period it doesn't. that may have been the street we lived on when we went there in , i don't know. mr. jenner. all right. i ask you to relate the circumstances respecting mr. ekdahl. mr. pic. well, in june , we were removed from bethlehem, and---- mr. jenner. did you know about that in advance? were you aware you were going to be removed and why? mr. pic. i don't remember how much in advance we knew this. we knew maybe a couple of weeks ahead of time. mr. jenner. or maybe the more important thing is why were you being removed from bethlehem? what were the circumstances of bringing that about? mr. pic. well, she was marrying mr. ekdahl, and if you had two parents they wouldn't allow you to stay at bethlehem. mr. jenner. she was not yet married to him? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. didn't marry him until the th of march ? mr. pic. that is about right, sir. mr. jenner. so you were removed in june or may , and the record shows in june. describe mr. ekdahl, please, to the extent you now have a recollection? mr. pic. he was---- mr. jenner. who was he? who did you understand he was? mr. pic. he was an electrical engineer. his home was in boston, mass., somewhere around there. he was described to us as a yankee, of course. rather tall, i think he was over feet. he had white hair, wore glasses, very nice man. mr. jenner. very nice man. i take it he was older than your mother? mr. pic. yes, sir; he appeared to be somewhat older, quite a bit. mr. jenner. a man of at least, apparently of considerably better means than your mother? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. than you boys had been accustomed to? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. what about his health, what did you understand as to that? mr. pic. i have no recollection of knowing anything about his health at that time, sir. mr. jenner. i see. when you were taken from bethlehem orphanage in june of , where did you go? mr. pic. dallas, tex., sir. mr. jenner. and do you recall where you lived in dallas, tex.? mr. pic. i remember what the house looks like, sir. i don't remember the address. you can probably refresh me on that. mr. jenner. i will do so and i want to make it accurate. victor was the address. mr. pic. that sounds familiar. mr. jenner. in dallas. would you please describe that victor street home? mr. pic. it was white, two story. mr. jenner. frame, brick? mr. pic. frame. i think it contained four apartments, maybe only two. i am pretty sure it was four though, two up and two down. we lived on the lower right, in boxcar-type rooms. mr. jenner. what do you mean by that? mr. pic. well, railroad style, living room, bedroom, bathroom, bedroom, kitchen. mr. jenner. one lined the other, you mean? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. i see. with a long hallway to connect it; is that it? mr. pic. the hall ran into each room as you walked by it. mr. jenner. yes; you lived there with your mother, with lee, and with robert? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. at the outset? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. mr. ekdahl did not live with you when you first went to dallas, tex.? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. do you have any recollection where he lived? first, was he in dallas? mr. pic. i think he was in fort worth, sir. and he used to come over to dallas to see us. is that right? mr. jenner. i think that is right. i can't answer. mr. pic. okay. mr. jenner. that was one of the reasons why i asked my first question. mr. pic. i think that is the way the setup was, sir. mr. jenner. i think that is so but i don't know. he would come over from fort worth and visit you? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. you boys, when you reached dallas in , you entered school, grammar school at that time, did you? mr. pic. robert--just a moment, sir; i remember i attended a summer school session of the th grade. robert may have. i don't really remember. i think he did. mr. jenner. we are in the summer of ? mr. pic. yes, sir; we went to summer school. i did, i know. i think he may have. mr. jenner. do you remember that it was the davy crockett---- mr. pic. no, sir; it was not the davy crockett. it was another school. davy crockett is where we entered in september. we meanwhile went to summer school. mr. jenner. i see. mr. pic. if you can give me a map of dallas? mr. jenner. you never heard of it? mr. pic. give me a map of texas and i can show you where approximately the school was and i will show you where it was. mr. jenner. you did, after that summer school period in the summer of , enter grammar school in dallas? mr. pic. that is right. davy crockett elementary school. i entered the th grade and robert entered the th. mr. jenner. let's see, lee is now almost years old. did he enter davy crockett at that time? mr. pic. to the best of my recollection, no, sir. mr. jenner. at that age he would be going to kindergarten anyhow. all right, you and robert then entered davy crockett? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. you continued on at davy crockett in the fall semester? mr. pic. just a moment. mr. jenner. yes? mr. pic. this house we went to in dallas. mr. jenner. yes. mr. pic. my mother owned it and rented the rest of it or she owned one side of it. mr. jenner. it was a duplex? mr. pic. right. mr. jenner. myrtle evans testified that she recalled visiting you, the family, on a trip she made to dallas on one occasion, on a buying trip or something or accompanied a friend of hers, it was on a ladies' apparel buying trip and she remembered it as what she called them, two-place houses. to me they are duplexes. mr. pic. right; duplex. mr. jenner. so her recollection is fairly good then. does that affect your recollection that it was a four-apartment building rather than it was a two-apartment building? mr. pic. i am pretty sure it was four apartments. mr. jenner. okay; go ahead. mr. pic. well, i was under the impression and always have been that she owned the house, and there was some arrangement with mr. ekdahl as to how she got it or something. she was renting to one couple upstairs, i know; is this right? mr. jenner. yes. mr. pic. we are in davy crockett elementary school, sir. mr. jenner. carry on. mr. pic. well, that would be september . in the summer of she married mr. ekdahl. i think you dated that as march or april. mr. jenner. she married him, in fact, on may , . i said march before; i misspoke. it was may , . mr. pic. i have got summer. it is pretty good. mr. jenner. did he then move into the victor place? mr. pic. yes, sir; she took a short honeymoon for a day or two and came back and moved in. mr. jenner. in the summer of did you and robert continue on at--through that summer in dallas? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. that following september, however, you transferred to some other school; did you not? mr. pic. yes, sir; and we were aware of this school before the school session ended in . i knew before we left davy crockett we were going. mr. jenner. what was the name of that? mr. pic. in september , sir, robert and i entered chamberlain-hunt academy, military school for boys, port gibson, miss. mr. jenner. and you were aware of that--that that was forthcoming? mr. pic. yes, sir; as early as may i think. mr. jenner. and what were the circumstances? mr. pic. mr. ekdahl had to travel and so we were going to boarding school. mr. jenner. i exhibited to you earlier, and you identified a letter of your mother's dated february , , to the bethlehem orphanage, john pic exhibit no. in which your mother is petitioning the bethlehem orphanage for the return of you two boys to the orphanage. mr. pic. i don't think i was aware of this letter. mr. jenner. you were not aware? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. so circumstances that you can recall now of the possible relationship between your mother and ekdahl that might have led to her seeking to do this? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. she says in her letter she is thinking in terms of returning you to bethlehem because she is going to be traveling with her husband when she does marry him--that is mr. ekdahl. there was no discussion in your presence that you can recall on that subject? mr. pic. not returning to bethlehem, no, sir; not that i remember. i have to find victor street and from there i can just about guess where the school was. i am lost on this map. i can't find victor street and where i lived. mr. jenner. was davy crockett grammar school near your home at victor street? mr. pic. about three blocks, sir. three long blocks. mr. jenner. describe that neighborhood to us. mr. pic. i think it would be middle class. mr. jenner. a level up from what you had been accustomed back in new orleans? mr. pic. yes, sir. there were fine brick homes; in fact, i had a paper route out there that i delivered, and easily middle class. maybe some upper middle class. mr. jenner. was your life there pleasant? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and when mr. ekdahl moved in were the relationships generally among all, now five of you, pleasant? mr. pic. between mr. ekdahl and the three boys they were pleasant, sir. i think there were some arguments between mr. ekdahl and my mother from time to time. mr. jenner. you were aware of those? mr. pic. yes, sir. i am going to need a map with a listing of the schools. this one doesn't seem to have one. this summer school was about a good miles away. we walked it in the morning. mr. jenner. you and robert? mr. pic. i think me and robert. we had other friends that we went to school with. mr. jenner. of course. mr. pic. and there were always a group of us. i don't remember if robert went or not, sir, to tell you the truth. mr. jenner. i see. when you came around to the fall of , however, you entered the chamberlain-hunt military academy? mr. pic. yes, sir; in fact, the trip to chamberlain-hunt was a side trip because mr. ekdahl, my mother, and lee were on their way to boston to visit his folks. and so they dropped us off at the school and then proceeded to boston. mr. jenner. was that a motor trip? mr. pic. yes, sir; it was in a buick. mr. jenner. you remained at chamberlain-hunt military academy except for summer vacation, or something of that nature, for how long? mr. pic. well, sir, you just want a blanket statement. i have got a whole bunch of goodies while i was at chamberlain-hunt. mr. jenner. all right. go ahead. mr. pic. during christmas vacation of robert and i received money to go home for the christmas holidays. we were to take the train from vicksburg, miss., to shreveport, la. these were instructions and when we arrived at shreveport, we were to wait for mr. ekdahl to pick us up. we arrived and he wasn't there. so i think we waited around, i have an estimate of between and hours, and then he showed up. he then drove us to fort worth, benbrook, tex., and we had a house about miles below fort worth in benbrook, it was way out. it wasn't the same benbrook house, it was further. this was a brick house. mr. jenner. the first house in benbrook? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. had you known the family had moved to benbrook, tex.? mr. pic. yes, sir; because we was writing. mr. jenner. because of correspondence? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. this was your first view of that house? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. tell us what it was; describe it to us? mr. pic. it was rather isolated on one of the main highways. in fact, i just drove that way recently and i couldn't find the place. when i went up to fort worth in i was looking for the house, i couldn't find it. mr. jenner. was it granbury road, box , benbrook, tex.? mr. pic. yes, sir; that sounds familiar. this was a brick house, with quite a bit of ground. i think way back they told us that one of the roosevelt sons had a house out there, that is how i remember. we arrived there sometime the next day or two; my mother quizzed us on why we were so late. one reason we were late besides the wait was the heavy fog, and i informed her we had to wait a while for mr. ekdahl, and she kind of hinted to me, i think i was at the time, did i see another woman or was there anything shady about it or something. that is all i have to say about that. she was under the impression years later, she told me that he had met some woman in shreveport and they were having some fun. mr. jenner. you were in benbrook, tex., then for the christmas holiday? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. you and robert? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. lee was living with mr. ekdahl and your mother at the benbrook, tex., home out on the outskirts of fort worth; i guess this is---- mr. pic. yes, sir; that is correct. mr. jenner. and you returned after the christmas holiday to---- mr. pic. it would be january we returned to, back to chamberlain-hunt. mr. jenner. did you return home at all from then on until the summer of ? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. where were you during the summer of ? mr. pic. in the summer of , robert and i were informed that we would stay at the academy to attend summer session there. well, school let out in may and i think summer session starts in june, so there was a waiting period of about to weeks, so we just stayed there. this suited us fine. we really liked the school. sometime during that waiting period my mother showed up and informed us that her and mr. ekdahl had separated, and she showed up with lee, of course, and she was going to take us to covington where we would stay the summer. we had--the commandant of the school was an attorney, and i think she got some legal assistance from him about divorce proceeding or something. she talked to him about it, i know. his name was farrell, herbert d. farrell. he was commandant of the school. did you ever talk to him? mr. jenner. not that i know of. mr. pic. a real nice man, too. she had the car. mr. jenner. the buick? mr. pic. yes, sir. she had it. mr. jenner. had she taken a home or a house in covington? mr. pic. yes, sir. when we arrived there she looked for a house, and there always is one neighborhood two or three blocks from the downtown area that we stayed in during the summers and she took a house in this area. that address i don't remember. mr. jenner. does the address, the street vermont street refresh your recollection, vermont? mr. pic. the only thing i remember about the house is a lady next door was plagued by squirrels throwing nuts on her roof because she was out every morning chasing them with a broom. mr. jenner. the squirrels? mr. pic. the squirrels. this was a one-story brick house, and we lived on the right side. mr. jenner. you stayed there throughout the summer? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. did you return to chamberlain-hunt that fall? mr. pic. yes, sir; we returned to chamberlain-hunt in september . then for the christmas holidays, , , we returned to covington where she and lee still were, and spent those holidays there. during those holidays we made one trip to new orleans with this other boy who lived in covington also that we went to school with, and they were driving to new orleans so we all bummed a ride and went to new orleans and visited the murrets a day or so. i think it was day. mr. jenner. did your mother accompany you? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. had lee entered grammar school at this time? mr. pic. i wouldn't know, sir. mr. jenner. our records show that he entered---- mr. pic. he probably did. mr. jenner. he entered in september , , and continued to january , , old covington grammar school. mr. pic. probably. mr. jenner. is that your impression at the time that he was in school, he is now years old? mr. pic. i think he had to be in school or they came and got him. my next note says that sometime between january until may mr. ekdahl and my mother were reunited. robert and i---- mr. jenner. had she returned to---- mr. pic. to fort worth. she didn't return to fort worth. they moved to fort worth. we had never been to fort worth before that except in benbrook. mr. jenner. i see. this was from benbrook, tex., to fort worth? mr. pic. right. this address i don't remember, sir. mr. jenner. does the address eighth avenue, fort worth, refresh your recollection? mr. pic. yes, sir; that is it. mr. jenner. all right. go ahead. mr. pic. ok. during that summer her and mr. ekdahl had their ins and outs. mr. jenner. you were home? mr. pic. yes, sir; i was assistant manager of an ice cream parlor. now let's go back further than that. when we first got there i got a job for the summer at walgreen's, and i worked there for a couple of weeks before they fired me. mr. jenner. you are now years old? mr. pic. yes, sir. and while i was working there i met this other boy, his name was sammy, his last name i don't remember, he was from california. he was working in walgreen's in fort worth, also. so, after i lost my job at walgreen's i got this other job, assistant manager of tex-gold ice cream parlor which was on eighth avenue, about blocks from the house. mr. jenner. describe that house, please. mr. pic. it was the second house from the corner. on the corner lived the mcleans who was an attorney and i think he was her attorney or his brother was her attorney in her divorce proceedings. they had a couple of boys we became friendly with. the house itself was a brick, i remember brick with a garage in the back. i think there was an upstairs or side. mr. jenner. describe the neighborhood, please. mr. pic. i would say it would be middle class. mr. jenner. it was comparable to the neighborhood you lived in at victor in dallas? mr. pic. yes, sir. i was assistant manager of this tex-gold ice cream parlor. mr. jenner. what was robert doing? mr. pic. nothing. mr. jenner. he didn't work? mr. pic. i don't think so. mr. jenner. all right. mr. pic. that is right, he was playing around with girls at that time. like i said, my mother and mr. ekdahl were having problems. it would seem they would have a fight about every other day and he would leave and come back. well, it seems one night, as i was returning from work, i think we closed the store about o'clock, mr. ekdahl and she drove up and told me that they wouldn't be home that night, that they were going downtown to the worth hotel. this was one of their reunions, and this was one of their longer separation periods. so, i went back and i told lee and robert, and this seemed to really elate lee, this made him really happy that they were getting back together. mr. ekdahl, while robert and i were at the academy would write us, he was a great one for writing poetry. he would send us a poem about ourselves or something, treated us real swell. well---- mr. jenner. i--what is your impression of mr. ekdahl, did lee like him? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. that is your definite impression that he liked him. mr. pic. yes, sir; i think lee found in him the father he never had. he had treated him real good and i am sure that lee felt the same way, i know he did. he felt the same way about it, because mr. ekdahl treated all of us like his own children. mr. jenner. there appears to be in the file at chamberlain-hunt military academy a letter from mr. ekdahl to your--to you boys dated august , carrying a return address of the fayette hotel on third street of fort worth. mr. pic. i don't know, sir. mr. jenner. this would be at the time when your mother was living in covington. during that period. mr. pic. i didn't know about it. mr. jenner. you have no recollection of it? mr. pic. i don't know where mr. ekdahl was when she was in covington. i know he was in the fort worth-dallas area is all i knew. mr. jenner. your mother and ekdahl, this incident you mentioned, you mentioned that because it impressed you that they were getting back together again, more friendly? mr. pic. no, sir; i mentioned it because it impressed lee. mr. jenner. i see. mr. pic. i think it impressed him more than it did either of the older boys. mr. jenner. did anything else occur during that summer? mr. pic. a whole bunch of stuff. mr. jenner. all right. go ahead. mr. pic. i think this is the same summer when we made the raid. i don't know if you know about the raid or not. mr. jenner. i don't think so. mr. pic. well, this guy sammy that i knew had another--knew a couple, a young married couple named marvin and goldie, i don't remember their last names, sir, and sammy and i were friends, sammy lived in a downtown hotel, and marvin and goldie had a house somewhere in the fort worth area. so we became friendly the four of us, and then they would come over to my house, and they got to know my mother and everything. well, after they broke up again, after this last incident. mr. jenner. this is still during the summer of ? mr. pic. yes, sir; this is still during the summer, my mother had strong suspicions that mr. ekdahl was seeing another woman and she was following him, i don't know how. i know she had the lead, she knew where the woman lived and everything. so, one night marvin, goldie, sammy, my mother and i all piled into this young couple's car, went over to these apartments, and sammy acted as a messenger, and knocked on the door and said, "telegram" for this woman, whoever she was. i don't remember the name. when she opened the door, my mother pushed her way in, this woman was dressed in a nightgown negligee, mr. ekdahl was seated in the living room in his shirt sleeves and she made a big fuss about this. she's got him now and all this stuff. that is about it. well, that is all to that incident. in september, robert--well, in august--robert and i in september returned to chamberlain-hunt, this is september . during the school year - i was informed about divorce proceedings. christmas holidays, , robert and i returned to the house on eighth avenue in fort worth and those are the pictures of lee sitting on the bike, it is in that time period. mr. jenner. let's identify those. i hand you pic exhibit nos. and . mr. pic. yes, sir; this was taken during that time period. this is the front lawn of the house on eighth avenue and the white house in the background would be that of the attorney mr. mclean. mr. jenner. did you take those pictures? mr. pic. sir? mr. jenner. did you take the pictures? mr. pic. my brother robert and i each had a box camera we received--no, we had the box camera before that. we took it with our box camera. mr. jenner. all right. i offer those exhibits in evidence. (john pic exhibits nos. and were marked for identification.) mr. jenner. was mr. ekdahl living in the home at that time? mr. pic. we did not see him during those holidays. mr. jenner. you returned to the academy following the christmas vacation? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and you continued on through the end of that school year, did you? mr. pic. yes, sir; to may . mr. jenner. give me your impressions of lee, he is now getting to be or years old, his attitudes and course of conduct, and his relationships with other children, either in the neighborhood or at school. mr. pic. well, sir; when we were home, robert and i, of course, that was the only time we seen lee, he would tag along with us to the movies and everything. he did what we did, got in the same trouble we did and so forth. i don't remember observing him with the other children. i had my own problems at the age of . we did know that during the school year of - , divorce proceedings were going to take place shortly. we returned from chamberlain-hunt in may , to a house i don't remember the address of, sir, but we were back down in the lower class again. mr. jenner. the house at---- mr. pic. it was right slap next to the railroad tracks. mr. jenner. willing street, fort worth. mr. pic. if that is next to the railroad tracks, that is it. i remember we had to listen to the trains going back and forth. she had moved in this house a couple or months prior to us returning from school. mr. jenner. the divorce had taken place in the meantime? mr. pic. no, sir; it had not. mr. jenner. was mr. ekdahl in this lower class house? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. did you see him during that summer? mr. pic. no, sir--yes, sir. but not prior to may . i seen him later during the summer. mr. jenner. yes. you and robert were home during that summer of , were you? mr. pic. may i continue? mr. jenner. yes. mr. pic. when we returned home i seen this house and my first impressions were that we are back to where we were. lee had a dog that a woman had given him, i think it is the same dog we have pictures of, and i kind of had the feeling that our days at chamberlain-hunt were ended even though it didn't come officially. then sometime in the summer of , the divorce took place in tarrant county, city of fort worth. i had to testify. i think they attempted to put lee on the stand but he said that he wouldn't know right from wrong and the truth from a falsehood so they excused him as a witness being he was under age. i don't remember my testimony completely. i do remember that my mother had made the statement that if mr. ekdahl ever hit her again that she would send me in there to beat him up or, something which i doubt that i could have done. i was told by her that she was contesting the divorce so that he would still support her. she lost, he won. the divorce was granted. i was also told that there was a settlement of about $ , and she stated that just about all of this went to the lawyer. right after this is when she purchased the house in benbrook, tex., the little house. mr. jenner. describe that house. mr. pic. it was an l-shaped house, sir, being the top of the l was her bedroom, bathroom, kitchen, and living room with a screened-in porch. she and lee slept together. my brother and i slept in the living room in the screened-in porch on studio couches. when we moved into this house and after the divorce and everything became final, i was---- mr. jenner. excuse me, was that san saba? mr. pic. no, sir; i don't know nothing about san saba. mr. jenner. do you recall the street you were on in benbrook; this first house? mr. pic. there were no streets. we used a post office box number up at the post office there. because i was sending away for stamps at the time from different companies, and i was collecting stamps and i would go pick up the mail at the post office. mr. jenner. the first house in benbrook was on granbury road, that is your recollection? that is the one you have already mentioned heretofore? mr. pic. granbury road is familiar, sir, if that is the one that is way far south of town on granbury road, then that is it. mr. jenner. well, there is a letter in the file at the hunt military academy in october of informing them that a new address would be granbury road, route , box in benbrook. mr. pic. that is the one further south of fort worth. mr. jenner. that is the first one? mr. pic. right. mr. jenner. the house you are now mentioning in benbrook was the summer of is different from the first one? mr. pic. yes, sir; it is. mr. jenner. you can't remember the street address? mr. pic. there was no street address. this was the first and only house built there. mr. jenner. i see. mr. pic. they just built up this area and she got the very first house. two pictures there, lee and lee's dog and this is taken at the house in benbrook, that house. mr. jenner. would you select those, please? mr. pic. these were taken in covington. mr. jenner. excuse me, the witness has referred to two pictures marked john pic exhibits nos. and . those were taken when? mr. pic. it would be the summer of at covington, la. mr. jenner. and those pictures are pictures of whom? mr. pic. lee harvey oswald. mr. jenner. all right. mr. pic. holding a fish. mr. jenner. i offer in evidence john pic exhibits nos. and . (john pic exhibits nos. and were marked for identification.) mr. jenner. the witness has now handed me two pictures, pic exhibits nos. and one of which shows a young boy with a black-and-white dog, and the other shows with a house in the background. the other shows a house in the background and a black-and-white dog in front and an automobile. could you decipher, referring to the exhibit numbers, the handwriting appearing at the top of each of those? you are looking at exhibit what now? mr. pic. exhibit no. , sir, shows lee's dog and the family car. this car belonged to us, that is why i brought it. the house in the background was the one and only grocery store, groceteria, whatever you want to call it, and laundromat in the area. this is where we did all of our food buying. mr. jenner. shopping? mr. pic. as far as the neighborhood was concerned. mr. jenner. there is some writing at the top of the picture; what does it say? mr. pic. this says "blackie, ." mr. jenner. blackie was the name of the dog? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. take that other exhibit and tell us what it was. mr. pic. this was the same dog lee had in when we returned from the school. exhibit no. shows the same store in the background and lee harvey oswald, and a dog named blackie. and to the right of the picture is the roof and corner of the house. mr. jenner. the house in which you lived? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. i offer in evidence john pic exhibits nos. and . (john pic exhibits nos. and were marked for identification.) mr. pic. after the divorce she bought the house in benbrook, tex., and then she was either working at or just got the job at leonard bros., fort worth, department store, fort worth, tex. at this time robert and i were informed that we would not return to chamberlain-hunt in the fall. this, i think, was the first time that i actually recall any hostility towards my mother. mr. jenner. on your part? mr. pic. yes, sir; this was quite a blow to me because we did want to go back. i had more years in high school and i was going to be in the th grade and i did want to finish there. mr. jenner. how did robert react to that? mr. pic. he felt the same way, sir. he wanted to go back. but we were informed because of the monetary situation it would be impossible for us to go back. in fact, my mother informed me that the best thing for me to do was not return to school but to get a job and help the family supplement its income. mr. jenner. that is withdraw from school entirely? mr. pic. yes, sir; i was at this time. in september, lee and robert returned to school, and i went to work. i obtained a job at everybody's department store which belonged to leonard bros. i was a shoe stock boy at the salary of $ a week. mr. jenner. did you pay some of that money to your mother? mr. pic. i think at least $ out of every pay check i did. mr. jenner. $ a week? mr. pic. yes, sir; i think my take-home pay was $ . after taxes. which left me $ . to ride back and forth on the bus with. mr. jenner. did you continue to live in this home in benbrook? mr. pic. no, sir; about the same time that i went to work and lee and robert returned to school is when my mother bought the house at ewing. mr. jenner. in fort worth? mr. pic. that is right, sir. it was just impossible for her and i to go to work and leave them out in the sticks, but being we moved on ewing they could walk to school. in fact, i left for work earlier than she did, a couple of hours, in fact. mr. jenner. had lee attended school in benbrook, tex.? mr. pic. no, sir; not in the little house because we moved in the summer and moved out in the early fall. mr. jenner. had he attended a day school or a nursery school in benbrook, tex., at anytime to your knowledge over this period of years? mr. pic. during the summer, sir, my mother worked at leonard bros., the three boys were left alone at home. mr. jenner. what about the previous years? mr. pic. she didn't work the previous years. she was still married to mr. ekdahl. mr. jenner. i appreciate that. i wonder if he went to nursery school--when you first went to benbrook, tex., when you were on granbury road? mr. pic. i wouldn't know that, sir. mr. jenner. you have no impression? mr. pic. that i don't remember. mr. jenner. all right. you now started to work in the fall of . mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. the family moves into fort worth at ewing street. mr. pic. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. and lee and robert enter school in fort worth. mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. is that correct? do you remember the school, one would be a grammar school and one a junior high school. mr. pic. i think robert went to sterling junior high school. in fact, she would drive him there in the morning, and lee was going to ridglea, west ridglea elementary school, something like that. mr. jenner. what happened to lee? you were working. mr. pic. right. mr. jenner. robert was in school. mr. pic. right. mr. jenner. and lee was in school. mr. pic. right. mr. jenner. did robert come home from school to take care of lee when he finished? mr. pic. lee returned home before robert did, sir. mr. jenner. what did he do? mr. pic. i have no idea, sir. mr. jenner. your mother was at work? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. he would just come home and wait until somebody came home? mr. pic. yes, sir; there was no tv at that time so---- mr. jenner. was he--what about his habits in that respect? did--your mother taught him to return home immediately and to stay in the house until she arrived? mr. pic. i am sure he always did, sir, knowing his personality. he was not the type to goof off in things like this. mr. jenner. did you notice any tendencies on his part to do heavy reading at this stage of his life? mr. pic. he always read a lot, sir. mr. jenner. he did? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. what about his--was he gregarious or not? did he exhibit tendencies to be with other people and children in the neighborhood or the contrary? mr. pic. not too much, sir. there weren't that many children his age in the neighborhood. in fact, most of them were my age and my brother robert's. mr. jenner. did this age gap between you and lee and between lee and your brother robert affect your relationships with him now that you had reached the age you were now , robert was , and lee was . mr. pic. we played with lee. lee had his dog. on the weekends, sunday, we would all go to the movies, the whole family. i usually went to work at sunup and returned at dark myself. in the fall of it was the fad among high school students and young teenagers to join either the national guard or naval reserve or some reserve outfit like this, so i was only at the time, and i wanted to do this, and my mother thought it would be a real good way to supplement the income. so---- mr. jenner. did you get paid for this service? mr. pic. yes, sir; we would meet once a month and draw a day's salary, something like this. it wasn't much money, a couple or $ a meeting; something like that. so we went to the notary, i think, this was mclean's office and she swore to a notary that i was . mr. jenner. but you were not in fact ? mr. pic. no, sir; i was . she gave my birthday as january . can we go off the record? (discussion off the record.) mr. pic. ok, so i joined the marine corps reserve sometime in october . i was attached to the d, th military howitzer battalion, u.s. marine corps reserve, fort worth, tex. about that time i started thinking and decided regardless of how my mother felt what happened, i was going to go back to school. so in january i went back to school and finished my high school education. mr. jenner. to what school did you return? mr. pic. i attended arlington heights high school, sir. mr. jenner. in fort worth? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. did you work after school? did you do anything to supplement your income? mr. pic. i was able to retain my job at everybody's as a stock boy for about month on this part-time basis but at the end of february they informed me there was no way i could be kept on a part-time basis so i left the job and i then got a job at burt's shoestore. at burt's shoestore i was working part time but really making more than full time because i was a stock boy at $ and all the commissions i could make in their stockroom plus all day saturday. mr. jenner. selling shoes? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. what was your mother doing at this time? mr. pic. i believe at this time, sir, she was working at sterling's department store in fort worth after leaving leonard bros., before i left everybody's, i think. mr. jenner. was robert working after school? mr. pic. yes; he was working at the a & p. mr. jenner. had he been working at the a & p after school from the previous fall? mr. pic. this would be . february , and i am sure he was working at a & p and going to school at that time, some time during that period. he and i were both working and going to school, both. so, in january , i returned to high school, arlington heights high school, fort worth, tex., and was a junior, th grade there. the school session ended and then i attended summer school to make up for what i had lost at paschal high school, fort worth, tex. mr. jenner. p-a-s-k-a-l? mr. pic. p-a-s-c-h-a-l, sir; is the way they spell it, sir. i still had the job at burt's. so i attended summer school at paschal, the summer of . september of ---- mr. jenner. excuse me, what did lee do now? had he been in school in the fall and winter of and the winter and spring of ? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. all right. now, vacation is here. what did he do during the summer? you went to school, and you worked at burt's, what was he doing? mr. pic. playing around home. and going to this camp carter that we ran across in the letter, i guess, i don't remember. mr. jenner. what was robert doing during the summer? mr. pic. he was working at the a & p, sir; i believe. mr. jenner. were both of you boys contributing to the support of your mother during this period? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. both of you? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. were you continuing to give your mother the $ a week you had started to give her in the fall of ? mr. pic. well, as far as i am concerned, being that i had no set income, i worked on a guaranteed salary of $ plus commissions my pay might fluctuate between $ , $ a week depending on how good a week i had. and i pro-rated this accordingly with her. mr. jenner. and was robert contributing something as well? mr. pic. yes, sir; he was. mr. jenner. lee didn't work at any time? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. did you ever recall lee up through this time through the summer of doing any work? mr. pic. no. mr. jenner. he is now years old? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. he didn't have any paper routes or do the things that a -year-old sometimes does? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. all right. mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. we have now reached the fall of . mr. pic. yes, sir; september , i decided--well, let's go back to when i went back to high school. mr. jenner. all right. it is january of . mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. lee was at ridglea. mr. pic. ok. i figured since i was smart enough to decide to go back to high school and my mother tried to talk me out of it i felt it was my own doing and therefore it was my own responsibility, so i decided since that is the way she felt and that was the way i felt i would sign my own report cards and take care of my own notes and everything. my hostility towards her increased at this time because she pushed me to work and make money, and i knew an education, as much as i could get would be the best thing for me. since i took on the responsibility of going back to school i figured i could take care of the rest of it and i wanted nothing from her in this regard. this i did. i signed my own report card, wrote my own notes when i played hooky and missed school. mr. jenner. signing her name? mr. pic. yes, sir; so in---- mr. jenner. by the way what kind of a student were you? mr. pic. i was a pretty good student at chamberlain-hunt. i had an a-b average at chamberlain-hunt, i believe, i did not do too good in the public schools, it was a little bit different, in chamberlain-hunt. the classes being a little larger, no individualized concern, just mass teaching. this was a little hard for me to adjust to. i did, i think i had a b or c average at arlington heights. my summer school session, i think i maintained a b-c average. maybe an a in one subject. so that in the , the summer of , i went to paschal high school for the summer session, and i decided at this time that i liked paschal better than arlington heights, so i fixed up my own transfer papers and i transferred to paschal high school in the fall of , which i did enjoy the school better. arlington heights was rather a snobbish school, the rich kids went there and everything, and being i was enrolled in what was called distributive education which means you go to school and work part time you are kind of looked down upon in these type schools. but in paschal it wasn't that way. the kids weren't snobbish and they weren't so high class, the majority of them. i didn't do too good that particular year. i was working pretty hard, and i think i flunked one subject. so right after the christmas holidays , i was coming towards my th birthday and i decided i had just about finished school and i would be graduated, if i passed everything i would, and i decided to join the service, the coast guard, and then i processed my paper work, and days prior to graduation i quit school and joined the coast guard. at this time to get in the coast guard was rather hard to do. you had to get on a waiting list and when they called you and you didn't show up for it you didn't get in maybe for months or so. i joined the coast guard because it was the hardest service to get into. i wasn't interested in the army or the marine corps or the navy. i took the one that was hardest, the hardest requirement and i got into it. so, in january, approximately january i joined the coast guard, and left for cape may, n.j. i did not see robert, lee, or my mother until october , months later. mr. jenner. october of ? mr. pic. no, sir; . . mr. jenner. before we get to that or probe that any further, lee returned to school in the fall of ? mr. pic. that is right. mr. jenner. he was still at ridglea elementary, then? mr. pic. as far as i know, sir. mr. jenner. what was his general attitude and his activities during this period , , through the summer of . mr. pic. sir; i was years old, i wasn't interested in what an - -year old kids activities were in school. i mean i had girls on my mind and other things like that, you know. mr. jenner. yes. mr. pic. to be honest with you. mr. jenner. yes, of course. what was your impression of him at that time? mr. pic. he would get into his trouble, and maybe he would have trouble with a neighbor now and then about walking across their lawn or something. i remember once there was a fight on the bus because of lee that my brother robert got beat up because. robert probably would remember that better than i did. mr. jenner. i don't know whether he mentioned that. mr. pic. i know he got his rear end whipped because of lee. mr. jenner. all right. you entered the coast guard, and then you didn't see either of your brothers or your mother from the time of your enlistment in january of . mr. pic. that is right. mr. jenner. until when? mr. pic. october , sir. early october . mr. jenner. what was that occasion? mr. pic. i went back home on leave, back to fort worth on leave, sir. mr. jenner. how long were you home on leave? mr. pic. i think i took days' leave. i think i stayed there , , something like that, about weeks. mr. jenner. what was the general atmosphere around the house at that time? mr. pic. well, everybody was glad to see me. i was--well, i come home with a couple of hundred dollars, you know a sailor off the high seas always saves his money and the mother right away wanted to hold it for me and so she conned me into that, and she let me have a few dollars of my own. then i spent most of my time looking up old girl friends and things, and visiting mr. conway. he and i were always playing chess together. mr. jenner. mr. conway, i took his deposition. mr. pic. yes, very nice man. mr. jenner. he spoke of playing chess with you a great deal. mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. i had forgotten that. lived across the street. mr. pic. no, sir; about five doors, four doors to the right of us. mr. jenner. on the same side of the street? mr. pic. same side. mr. jenner. hiram conway. mr. pic. hiram p. conway. mr. jenner. you then returned to the service? mr. pic. yes. i reported back to my ship. mr. jenner. when next did you see your mother or lee or robert? mr. pic. august , sir. mr. jenner. when you were back in the fall of , was lee in school? mr. pic. yes, sir; as far as i know. mr. jenner. at ridglea elementary? mr. pic. yes, sir; as far as i know. mr. jenner. robert was still in school. he is now - / years of age? mr. pic. i don't know if he was. going through those letters there was a time period he was in school, out of school. i don't really remember. i don't think he was in school when i returned on leave. mr. jenner. what was he doing? mr. pic. a & p, sir. mr. jenner. working. are you now and were you then aware of the fact that your father contributed to your support during all the years actually until you reached your th birthday? mr. pic. yes, sir; that is when i decided to make it all on my own since she reminded me of the fact that she wouldn't get no money after i was so that was one thing that contributed to me deciding to leave. mr. jenner. were you aware during all these years of what the amount of that contribution was? mr. pic. no, sir; i wasn't. mr. jenner. but you were aware of the fact that your father was making contributions? mr. pic. i was always told it wasn't enough, sir. mr. jenner. apart from that you were aware of the fact your father was making contributions? mr. pic. right. she reminded me the day i became that the payments stopped right then and there. mr. jenner. the fact is that they did. mr. pic. i know. i have no reason to doubt that. what was the amount? (discussion off the record.) mr. jenner. when you were in the service did you make any allotment to your mother? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. did you send her any money at any time while you were in the service? mr. pic. quite frequently, sir. mr. jenner. tell us about that. tell us as best you can the amount. mr. pic. when i was in boot camp from january to may , the only amount they paid us was $ every weeks and they held back the rest of our pay until we would graduate and then we would have money to go to our next station with. they do this to recruits. i don't remember if i sent any of this or not, sir. mr. jenner. did you send any of the excess when you got it? mr. pic. in those letters i presented you could add them up and see how much i sent in the year . i think i sent $ , $ at a time when i had it. i was making $ a month. how much could i send and still be a sailor? mr. jenner. this is not in any sense a criticism, sergeant. all i am doing is seeking some facts. mr. pic. well, sir, in the letters she refers to , , , sometimes. mr. jenner. i show you john pic exhibits nos. and , and referring to no. , at the bottom of which is written lee, age - / . would you identify that, please? mr. pic. yes, sir; this is lee harvey oswald age - / as the picture states written in the handwriting of mrs. marguerite oswald. this picture was taken at lillian murret's at sherwood forest drive. mr. jenner. that was your aunt's home in sherwood forest, new orleans. mr. pic. yes, sir; i am sure of that. mr. jenner. i show you john pic exhibit no. which--would you identify that? mr. pic. yes, sir; this is a picture of lee harvey oswald, i guess at the same time, with a dog, and i am sure this was taken at lillian murret's in sherwood forest drive. mr. jenner. at the same time that john pic exhibit no. was taken? mr. pic. yes; i think so. mr. jenner. all right. i hand you now john pic exhibit no. , a photograph of a young man. would you identify that as to time and place if you can, and age, his age, the subject's age? mr. pic. sir, this is a picture of lee harvey oswald which i believe to have been taken when he was in about the second or third grade. mr. jenner. that would be when you were living in dallas? mr. pic. fort worth, sir. mr. jenner. fort worth, yes; ewing. mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. i hand you john pic exhibits nos. and . i don't know which depicts this young man at the younger age. take the younger one. mr. pic. exhibit no. , sir, i believe was taken either in late or early , and it shows a picture of lee harvey oswald approximately how he looked when he came to new york to stay with my wife and i in august of . exhibit no. , to my best recollection, i think, is a picture sent to me by my mother in approximately , , maybe in , from new orleans, la. it is a picture of lee harvey oswald. mr. jenner. it is after they returned to new orleans? mr. pic. i am pretty sure that picture was taken in new orleans. mr. jenner. all right. i offer in evidence john pic exhibits nos. , , , , and . (john pic exhibits nos. , , , , and were marked for identification.) mr. jenner. what were the circumstances surrounding and leading up to your mother and lee coming to new york city in the summer of ? mr. pic. i think this was brought on because robert joined the service sometime previous to that. that would be about right, april , did he join the service. i don't know when. he wasn't there at the time. he was in the service when they came. mr. jenner. yes. he entered the service as soon as he reached his majority. mr. pic. so that would be april . mr. jenner. was there an incident respecting, between robert and your mother and some young lady in which, in whom he was interested just before he entered the service? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. you came to know about that? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. by what means? mr. pic. by way of my mother, sir. mr. jenner. all right, what was it? mr. pic. robert had been seeing this girl and she had a club foot. my mother didn't feel that they should be married. he wanted to marry her, and she conned him out of it. mr. jenner. all right. had you received any letters from robert on that subject at anytime? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. between the time you were home in october of and the summer of , had you seen your mother or either of your brothers? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. all right. now, my question to you was what led up to and what were the circumstances involving or surrounding the visit of your mother and lee to new york in the summer of . mr. pic. well, robert had joined the service in april . it was the summer months, so lee was not in school, and the trip to new york was feasible, being lee would have no schooltime lost, it was my impression and also my wife's--meanwhile, i was married, you know, if you are interested in this. mr. jenner. yes; i am. mr. pic. august , , i married my wife margaret dorothy fuhrman. mr. jenner. you had met her after you had entered the service and while you were stationed in the new york area? mr. pic. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. at this time, that is the summer of you were living where? mr. pic. east d street, sir. mr. jenner. did you have any children at that time? mr. pic. in august ; yes, sir. i did. mr. jenner. your first child was born? mr. pic. yes, sir; john edward pic, jr. mr. jenner. was the child born before or after your mother and lee arrived. mr. pic. before, sir. mr. jenner. all right. mr. pic. he was born may , approximately months before they arrived. mr. jenner. all right. did you invite your mother and lee to come to new york? mr. pic. the impression that my wife and myself had was they were coming to visit, sir, and we had nothing against this. my mother-in-law, we lived with her at the time, she was visiting her other daughter, mrs. emma parrish, in norfolk, va., she was staying with them, so we had the room for them. mr. jenner. but that was your mother's apartment or home? mr. pic. mother-in-law's. mr. jenner. was it an apartment or a home? mr. pic. yes, sir; it was a box, freight-car type railroad apartment. mr. jenner. one room in back of the other? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. so you were then guests of your mother-in-law at that particular time, that is, living in her home or apartment? and your impression was that your mother and lee they were just visiting for the summer months or for a period, to visit for the summer months or a period during the summer that was your definite impression. mr. pic. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. all right, what happened? mr. pic. at this time i was stationed at u.s. coast guard, port security unit, ellis island, new york. my status there, i was, i worked once every fourth night, also every fourth weekend so i wasn't home all the time. when they came i took leave so i could spend more time with them. mr. jenner. "i took lee," would you elaborate on that? what do you mean you took lee. mr. pic. i am allowed days leave a year and i took off, i took a week or so, i think. mr. jenner. i misunderstood you, i thought you said you took lee but you said you took leave. mr. pic. leave. mr. jenner. you took days leave. mr. pic. no, sir; maybe a week or two. mr. jenner. what was your impression, you were with them or tried to be with them during that -week period. mr. pic. just a minute, sir. that is where i began my notes. august , my mother and lee came to new york. they brought with them quite a bit of luggage, and their own tv set. on my way home i had to walk about to blocks to the subway, and lee walked up to meet me as i was walking home, i told my wife and lee decided to go up and meet me. we met in the street and i was real glad to see him and he was real glad to see me. we were real good friends. i think a matter of a few days or so i took my leave. lee and i visited some of the landmarks of new york, the museum of natural history, polk's hobby shop on th avenue. i took him on the staten island ferry, and several other excursions we made. mr. jenner. go ahead. mr. pic. well, sir; it wasn't but a matter of days before i could sense they moved in to stay for good, and this not being my apartment, but my mother-in-law's apartment, my wife kind of frowned upon this a little bit. we didn't really mind as long as my mother-in-law wasn't there, but she was due back in a matter of a month or so. during my leave i was under the impression that i may get out of the service in january of , when my enlistment was up, so i went around to several colleges. my mother drove me to these colleges, fordham university, for one, and brooklyn, some college in brooklyn, a couple of other ones i inquired about. i remember one conversation in the car that she reminded me that even though margy was my wife, she wasn't quite as good as i was, and things like this. she didn't say too many good things about my wife. well, naturally, i resented this, because i put my wife before my mother any day. things were pretty good during the time i was on leave. when i went back to work i would come home my wife would tell me about some little problem they would have. the first problem that i recollect was that there was no support for the grocery bill whatsoever. i don't think i was making more than $ a month, and they were eating up quite a bit, and i just casually mentioned that and my mother got very much upset about it. so every night i got home and especially the nights i was away and i would come home the next day my wife would have more to tell me about the little arguments. it seems it is my wife's impression that whenever there was an argument that my mother antagonized lee towards hostility against my wife. my wife liked lee. my wife and i had talked several times that it would be nice if lee would stay with us alone, and we wouldn't mind having him. but we never bothered mentioning this because we knew it was an impossibility. it got toward schooltime and they had their foothold in the house and he was going to enroll in the neighborhood school, and they planned to stay with us, and i didn't much like this. we couldn't afford to have them, and took him up to enroll in this school. mr. jenner. you did? mr. pic. no, sir; my mother did. i think this is a public school in new york city located on about th, th street between third avenue and second avenue. lee didn't like this school. i didn't much blame him. mr. ely. when you visited these colleges, had you received credit for finishing high school somehow? mr. pic. no. mr. jenner. did you hear anything to the effect that the reason why your mother and lee had come to new york had anything to do with lee's being given some sort of mental tests? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. was there a period of time just before the enrollment of lee in the new york public school, that he attended for about a month a lutheran denominational school? mr. pic. i don't know, sir. i am not up to that yet. mr. jenner. i see. all right. mr. pic. at about the same time that lee was enrolled in school that we had the big trouble. it seems that there was an argument about the tv set one day, and--between my wife and my mother. it seems that according to my wife's statement that my mother antagonized lee, being very hostile toward my wife and he pulled out a pocketknife and said that if she made any attempt to do anything about it that he would use it on her, at the same time lee struck his mother. this perturbed my wife to no end. so, i came home that night, and the facts were related to me. mr. jenner. when the facts were related to you was your mother present, lee present, your wife present? if not, who was present? mr. pic. i think my wife told me this in private, sir. i went and asked my mother about it. mr. jenner. your mother was home? mr. pic. yes, sir; she was home. mr. jenner. you went and spoke with your mother? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. was lee present when you spoke to your mother? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. what did you say to your mother and what did she say to you? mr. pic. i asked her about the incident and she attempted to brush it off as not being as serious as my wife put it. that lee did not pull a pocketknife on her. that they just had a little argument about what tv channel they were going to watch. being as prejudiced as i am i rather believed my wife rather than my mother. mr. jenner. did you speak to lee about the incident? mr. pic. i am getting to that, sir. so i approached lee on this subject, and about the first couple of words out of my wife he became real hostile toward me, and let me get my notes on it. when this happened it perturbed my wife so much that she told them they are going to leave whether they liked it or not, and i think lee had the hostility toward my wife right then and there, when they were getting thrown out of the house as they put it. when i attempted to talk to lee about this, he ignored me, and i was never able to get to the kid again after that. he didn't care to hear anything i had to say to him. so in a matter of a few days they packed up and left, sir. they moved to the bronx somewhere. mr. jenner. did you see them from time to time thereafter? mr. pic. yes, i can continue if you wish. unless you want to stop there and ask me something about it. mr. jenner. well, at this point, yes, i would like to ask you this: you hadn't seen them from october of until the summer of . did you notice any change in him, his overall attitude, his relations with his mother, his demeanor, his feelings towards others, his actions toward others? mr. pic. he was definitely the boss. mr. jenner. now, tell us on what you base that? mr. pic. i mean if he decided to do something, regardless of what my mother said, he did it. she had no authority whatsoever with him. he had no respect for her at all. he and my wife got along very well together when they were alone, when she wasn't present, she and lee got along very well. she always reminded me of this. mr. jenner. your wife reminded you of that? mr. pic. yes, sir. without my mother present she could make it with lee. mr. jenner. but as soon as your mother came within contact with lee in your home, then the attitude changed? mr. pic. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. up to this incident when this knife pulling incident occurred, how had your relations with lee been? mr. pic. been very good, sir. he and i had gone on all these excursions throughout new york city, and i tried to show him what i could, and spend as much time as i could with him. mr. jenner. you found him to have--he was interested in that sort of thing? mr. pic. yes, sir; he loved to go to the museum of natural history, anything like that he liked. mr. jenner. did you speak to him about this relationship he appeared to have with his mother in which he minded her or not as he saw fit and did as he wished? mr. pic. not until the knife pulling incident. mr. jenner. and you did discuss that subject with him on that occasion? mr. pic. i attempted to, sir. mr. jenner. did you attempt to do it thereafter when you saw him from time to time? mr. pic. sir, he would have nothing to do with me thereafter. mr. jenner. he would not. mr. pic. no, sir; he wouldn't even speak to me. mr. jenner. there was an absolute, complete change then in his relations with you? mr. pic. yes, sir; that is correct. mr. jenner. it was a marked one? mr. pic. that is correct. i have a couple of more incidents in which i can relate that even more so. mr. jenner. would you do that? mr. pic. well, the day they moved out they had done this before i came home from work. mr. jenner. they had moved out before you came home from work? mr. pic. that is correct, sir. to elaborate, in my notes i have "after i approached lee about this incident his feelings toward me became hostile and thereafter remained indifferent to me and never again was i able to communicate with him in any way." mr. jenner. sergeant, if you can, instead of just reading from your notes, read your notes, and if they refresh your recollection and then give in your own words the facts. mr. pic. well, prior to this particular incident, i would consider us the best of friends as far as older brother-younger brother relationship. my wife always says that he idolized me and thought quite a bit of me. mr. jenner. up to this time, the relationship between you and your brother lee, and your brother robert, all three of you, had been a cordial normal friendly relationship that you expect to exist among brothers? mr. pic. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. what was your nickname? mr. pic. pic. mr. jenner. what was your brother robert's nickname? mr. pic. in chamberlain-hunt we referred to him as "mouse". i think that hung on a while after that. mr. jenner. what nickname did he have before that? mr. pic. none that i recall. mr. jenner. why did he get that? was he a quiet boy? mr. pic. he was the littlest one in chamberlain-hunt and that was why they called him that. mr. jenner. i see, size. mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. did lee ever have a nickname? mr. pic. not that i know of, sir. mr. jenner. you had the feeling, did you, up until this incident at least that lee is a young boy, years younger than you, and his brother robert years older than he, and he looked up to both of you as older brothers? mr. pic. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. and you had, both you and your brother robert had love in your heart for your brother lee? mr. pic. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. and you felt he reciprocated that? mr. pic. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. and the relationship between yourself and your brother robert was cordial? mr. pic. they always have, and still are, sir. mr. jenner. i may say to you that he so testified. all right. mr. pic. so they moved out in about september , maybe it was late september, early october, somewhere around there, so from about somewhere between september of and january , my brother robert came to new york on leave, and we were all invited up to the bronx. mr. jenner. to visit whom? mr. pic. sir? mr. jenner. to visit whom? mr. pic. to visit my mother and my brother. mr. jenner. your brother? mr. pic. that is correct. mr. jenner. did your brother's wife accompany him? mr. pic. he wasn't married at that time, sir. mr. jenner. he wasn't married? mr. pic. i think this was, his leave was probably in october or november , a matter of a month or two after they had moved out. we visited their apartment in the bronx. mr. jenner. excuse me, where did your brother stay? mr. pic. i think he stayed at the soldier-sailor-airmen club in new york. mr. jenner. in any event he did not stay with you. mr. pic. no, sir; he may have stayed with my mother also. i don't think so. maybe for a night or two. we went out, my wife fixed him up with a date with one of her girl friends and we went out together a couple of times. so, we were invited up there for this sunday dinner. so it was my mother, lee, robert, my wife, myself, and my son. robert was already there when we arrived. when lee seen me or my wife he left the room. for dinner he sat in the front room watching tv and didn't join us whatsoever. mr. jenner. he did not join you for dinner? mr. pic. no, sir. didn't speak to me or my wife. mr. jenner. that put a kind of pall on the visit, did it not? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. did you--he didn't speak to you. did you attempt to speak with him? mr. pic. yes, sir; i did. mr. jenner. did he answer you? mr. pic. he shrugged his shoulders a couple of times maybe. he wasn't interested in anything i had to say. mr. jenner. he was definitely hostile to you and to mrs. pic? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and that continued throughout the entire visit that evening or was it an evening? mr. pic. it was early afternoon until dusk. we did have an infant son we had to get home. mr. jenner. was it a sunday or saturday? mr. pic. i am sure it was a sunday. in january ---- mr. jenner. excuse me, what did you observe with respect to the attitude of lee toward his mother on that occasion? mr. pic. when he was eating he came and got what he wanted, picked up his plate, went to the living room and watched tv. he decided what he wanted to eat and maybe she helped him. i don't really remember too much about it. i know he did not eat with us. mr. jenner. did you notice his relation, if any, with robert? mr. pic. from what i was told later and so forth when i wasn't present him and robert got along real good. mr. jenner. excuse me. my question was did you observe on this occasion. mr. pic. there was nothing to observe while i was present, sir. he was completely withdrawn from the crowd. mr. jenner. he withdrew from everybody? mr. pic. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. all right. mr. pic. personally, i didn't know if he was more hostile towards me or my wife. i still don't know this fact. maybe it was her, maybe it was me, maybe it was both of us. in january , i did reenlist in the coast guard. i decided to stay in rather than quit, and so forth. mr. jenner. from the time of that october visit of robert to january , did you see lee at any time during that period? mr. pic. no, sir; i did not. i seen my mother on several occasions. she was working on d street in a lerner's dress shop. i guess i would see her maybe once every weeks to once a month, we dropped downtown, my wife and i, to see her. mr. jenner. what did she say about lee during that time when you saw her on those occasions? mr. pic. whenever i seen her, whether i was alone or with my wife, i was usually alone, i went to see her myself, my wife didn't care to see my mother, she would complain about her financial status and when i would ask her about how lee was doing she would say, "ok" but would not elaborate. said "he is ok, but he doesn't have a brother, an older brother to talk to or no one to do anything with." mr. jenner. during this period of time and up to january , in any of the contacts you had with your mother did you learn or were you advised or did you become aware that there was difficulty with lee with respect to truancy in attendance at school? mr. pic. i am not quite there, sir. mr. jenner. all right. the answer is, i take it, that up to this point of january you were not aware. mr. pic. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. despite the fact that you had seen your mother from time to time during that period? mr. pic. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. all right, we are at january , when you reenlisted in the coast guard. mr. pic. that is right. so in february , my wife and i were again invited to their apartment. this may or may not have been the same apartment we originally visited. i don't remember, sir. i know it was up in the bronx. i think it may have been a different apartment. is that right? mr. jenner. yes. mr. pic. as my wife and i walked in, lee walked out and my mother informed us that he would probably go to the bronx zoo. we had sunday dinner, and in the course of the conversation my mother informed me that lee was having a truancy problem and that the school officials had suggested that he might need psychiatric aid to combat his truancy problem. she informed me that lee said that he would not see a head shrinker or nut doctor, and she wanted any suggestions or opinions from me as to how to get him to see him, and i told her just take him down there. that is all i could suggest. mr. jenner. what was her response to that? mr. pic. well, lee was still the boss. if he didn't want to go see the psychiatrist, he wasn't going. mr. jenner. she had no control over him? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. and you were quite aware of that, were you? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. did you discuss that with her? mr. pic. no, sir; she discussed it with me. i mean she told me that she couldn't control him and so forth. this i knew. mr. jenner. did you get the impression from anything she said to you that this truancy or this lack of control problem had been something that had suddenly arisen or---- mr. pic. i think it was gradual, and getting worse and worse as time went by. mr. jenner. sergeant, when you were still home and up to the time you enlisted which was in january , had there been any control problems with respect to lee? in other words, had you noticed this problem developing, any headstrong attitudes on his part? cudgel your mind and take yourself back. mr. pic. i would say, sir, that whenever there was a disciplinary problem to be taken care of that it wasn't enforced with lee by his mother prior to . she always reminded robert and i that we were the older and we should see to these things that he don't do them and so forth. mr. jenner. what did you and robert do about it? mr. pic. not much, sir. mr. jenner. did you speak to him? you were his older brother. he had the love and affection for you? mr. pic. well, sir; what was serious to her probably wasn't serious to a - and -year old kid or - . there was no big troubles he got into that any kid does. mr. jenner. what did you notice up until the time you enlisted in january , of lee's relations with other children in the neighborhood or his schoolmates. what was your overall impression, first? mr. pic. to my best recollection, sir; there were no other children in the neighborhood of his age group that he played consistently with. i think most of the time he went to play with other children it was a matter of a couple, couple of blocks away or so, with his own age group. mr. jenner. was he inclined to remain in the house rather than go out and play with other children? mr. pic. yes, sir; he was more inclined to stay in the house than go out and play. mr. jenner. was that noticeable to you? mr. pic. i wasn't there that much, sir; i was working and going to school, both. i wasn't there to observe this. mr. jenner. i see. mr. pic. except maybe on a weekend occasionally. mr. jenner. but you did notice that when they came to new york in , particularly in the fall of , that by that time he had become quite headstrong? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and that his mother and your mother marguerite, had pretty well lost any influence or control over him? mr. pic. that is absolutely true, sir. mr. jenner. all right. now, we brought you up to enlistment in january . mr. pic. on the occasion when we visited them in february . mr. jenner. yes. mr. pic. at this same time in february , i received orders to go aboard ship again, so from the time period february , until september , i was in and out of new york at sea. mr. jenner. did you see either your mother or lee during that period of time? mr. pic. i did not see lee after the february visit, sir. i had seen her on several occasions. mr. jenner. during this---- mr. pic. downtown where she worked. mr. jenner. she was still working in lerner's in the spring and summer of or had she changed jobs? mr. pic. to my best recollection it was still lerner's. mr. jenner. do you recall her working at a hosiery shop during this period of time rather than lerner's? mr. pic. i wouldn't remember, sir. mr. jenner. she might have been but you just don't have a recollection? mr. pic. wherever she was working at the time, i mean she shifted jobs quite often and it is kind of hard keeping track of them. mr. jenner. did she have difficulty with her employers, get along with fellow workers at these various shops? mr. pic. whenever she changed jobs she always gave me a rationalized answer. mr. jenner. well, that is a conclusion. tell me what it was. mr. pic. i remember once, it may have been the lerner shop or it may have been this hosiery shop which you are referring to, that she told me that they let her go because she didn't use an underarm deoderant. that was the reason she gave me, sir. she said she couldn't do nothing about it. she uses it but if it don't work what can she do about it. other times whenever she changed jobs it was always because the next job was better. mr. jenner. during the time, on the occasions when you saw her, which was relatively infrequent from january of to, what is the next date you gave, september of ? mr. pic. august-september . mr. jenner. august of , september of , was there any discussion with her about lee? mr. pic. when i asked about him it was the same old stuff, he is getting along better. she would tell me that he still doesn't have anybody to confide in, things like this. mr. jenner. was there any further discussion about truancy, any possibility of care for him by a psychiatrist? mr. pic. no, sir; when i asked about this she said everything was working out fine. mr. jenner. all right. mr. pic. whenever i would meet her it would be the same old song and dance, like hinting around i should help support her which i couldn't afford to do, sir. mr. jenner. you had a wife and child by that time? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. what was your compensation? mr. pic. for what, sir? mr. jenner. in the service at this time. mr. pic. i was petty officer, second class, i guess my base pay was maybe $ , plus extras, quarters allowances, maybe total $ a month. mr. jenner. was your wife still residing with your mother-in-law? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and were you contributing to the support of that whole family unit? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. mother-in-law, wife and child? mr. pic. yes, sir; i was paying the rent and buying the groceries. in fact, that year i claimed my mother-in-law as a dependent on my income tax, sir. mr. jenner. by the way, you had claimed, did you, at some point in your service your mother as a dependent? mr. pic. in one of her letters she refers to that. i don't recollect that, sir. i think it was prior to my joining the service that she referred to. when i was working full time, maybe the year right after, i don't remember, sir, that incident at all. mr. jenner. all right. mr. pic. well, on these visits that i would spend with her downtown, we would eat lunch or something on saturday. it got old after a while listening to her so i knew i was getting transferred to virginia in september, , so my wife left in august of to live with her sister until i was stationed there in september, . mr. jenner. where did her sister live? mr. pic. norfolk, va. and i was to be stationed at portsmouth, va., at the naval hospital there for school purposes. when i did finally get transferred from the ship to portsmouth, va., i did not make known to my mother our whereabouts or our address. mr. jenner. why not? mr. pic. like i said, sir; it was getting kind of old. the only time i had seen her would be downtown and she didn't have much to say to me and i didn't have too much to say to her. mr. jenner. during this period of time there came about a substantially complete rupture then between yourself and your mother? mr. pic. to a certain degree. mr. jenner. did you see your brother at any time thereafter? mr. pic. no, sir; i did not. mr. jenner. was there an occasion in thanksgiving when you saw him? mr. pic. yes, sir; i can get to that. there are things happened prior to that. mr. jenner. you did see him---- mr. pic. no, sir; i did not see him. i seen my mother. mr. jenner. i see. all right; go ahead. mr. pic. i returned from portsmouth, va., in april , sir; and took up residency at st. marks place, staten island, n.y. we returned really to east d street, stayed there a matter of a couple of days until i found us a place to live in staten island and then my wife and i moved over to staten island leaving my mother-in-law in the apartment, being i felt because my wife had six brothers and sisters that they could worry about her. i didn't see that it was my responsibility much longer. my wife was the youngest child, and we lived there almost years. i was then assigned to the u.s. coast guard cutter _halfmoon_, which is a weather vessel, and this is where i am in and out for -, -week periods at a time. it was during this time that she wrote me at the base, my mother, and informed me that they were back in new orleans, and you have the letters referring to this, sir. it was either sometime in the fall of or the winter of that my mother called me from new orleans. mr. jenner. by telephone? mr. pic. yes, sir; and said she wanted to visit again. mr. jenner. you were then in new york? mr. pic. yes, sir; well, lee was still with her, and my wife frowned upon this, and being that we did have a one-bedroom apartment, and we did have two children at this time there was no way at all we could accommodate two of them. she was very upset about this that i wouldn't have her up. there was nothing i could do about it, though. i knew if she came up they were coming up to stay, and i didn't want a repeat of what we had. so in february , i joined the air force and was stationed at mitchel air force base in new york which is about , miles east of new york city. in october , lee joined the marine corps. mr. jenner. how did that come to your attention? mr. pic. my mother informed me of this fact. mr. jenner. by letter? mr. pic. we were writing again. so, it was just a matter of corresponding by mail up until the christmas holidays of when my mother--let me make sure that date is right--i am fairly certain, sir; that it was the christmas holidays of rather than the christmas holidays of --that she visited us. mr. jenner. she did come to new york? mr. pic. right. she come to--we had moved to avenue c east meadow, on long island. i had two children but we had a -bedroom apartment which was part of base housing and we could accommodate her here. she came from fort worth when she arrived. somehow or another between new orleans and this visit she and lee had gone back to fort worth. mr. jenner. you were aware of the fact she had returned to fort worth? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and you learned that through correspondence? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. with her. mr. pic. yes, sir; her position at that time, so she told us, was that she was a greeter for the city of fort worth. she would welcome people to town and things like this. mr. jenner. i think she was employed for a while in an organization called welcome wagon. that is a national organization. mr. pic. when she was employed is when she visited us. i think this was christmas of , is that right? mr. ely. i think that would be the same thing probably, welcome wagon greets people. mr. pic. is this when she had that job? mr. jenner. i am not sure of the date but it is true that during that, when she returned to fort worth sometime along there she did have a position of that character. mr. pic. she stayed over the christmas holidays, left approximately the th of january, sometime. mr. jenner. did you have conversations here about lee during that time? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. what did she say? mr. pic. lee was in the marine corps, lee was very happy to be in the marine corps, lee was proud to be in the marine corps. lee loved the marine corps. he just liked it. mr. jenner. i see. what had occurred to robert in the meantime? this is december of . was he still in the service? mr. pic. no, sir; he was not, i don't believe. i think he had gotten discharged and gotten married, was residing in fort worth with his wife. mr. jenner. he was discharged in the spring of - , rather; and stayed at exchange alley for a short while. mr. pic. i don't know that. mr. jenner. then went to fort worth and your mother and your brother lee followed and your brother lee attended high school for about or weeks in the fall of in fort worth, arlington heights high school, and enlisted in october , in the marines. mr. pic. lee enlisted in , i believe. mr. ely. . mr. jenner. was it. then your brother robert was discharged, mustered out in ? mr. pic. that sounds about right. and stayed in exchange alley a short time, didn't like it, went on to fort worth. after she left in january of we continued to communicate by mail and every now and then a phone call. then in august of i received my orders to japan, and we left mitchel and departed cross country. mr. jenner. you and your wife and children? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. by what, automobile? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. by this time you owned an automobile? mr. pic. my second one. mr. jenner. second one? mr. pic. i purchased my first one when i was stationed in virginia. we arrived in fort worth, approximately , october . i remember we were in her house on halloween night because i pulled the car up behind and locked the gates so i would not have my hub caps stolen. mr. jenner. where did she reside then? mr. pic. i think you ought to refresh my memory on that. it was a little circle. did she have an address with a little circle, some kind of circle or something? mr. jenner. do you have that? mr. pic. what she lived on described the street, it was a circle, something like that. mr. jenner. her first house and apartment in new york was , that was your apartment, east . and then she moved over to sheridan avenue in the bronx, and then east th street in the bronx. west fifth street, fort worth. mr. pic. that isn't familiar. mr. jenner. it is not familiar? mr. pic. it could be it, though, i can probably find it on the map of fort worth if we still have got it because i remember that place real well. i was thrown out of there. some people hold a grudge a long time. sir, that is probably it, west fifth street, because the location west fifth street is probably about the same place. mr. jenner. you said you were thrown out of there. i assume an incident occurred? mr. pic. yes, sir; i am getting to that. mr. jenner. all right. mr. pic. while we were staying there, i was traveling cross country and really didn't know where i was going or what time i would have to be there. we were waiting for our port call to know when we would have to be in san francisco to catch our flight out of there, and so i had no idea how long i would be in fort worth, and so i made a phone call from there to mitchel to try to find out, and didn't find out anything. then the sunday that we were there--well, prior to this, when we arrived there the same day my brother robert came over to see us. he was then working for a milk company, borden's milk co., i believe. he was giving my mother free milk, all the extras that he had and so forth. mr. jenner. this is the first time you had seen your brother robert, i take it, since his visit to new york city, is that correct? mr. pic. that is correct. mr. jenner. and that was a cordial reunion, was it? mr. pic. yes; it was. mr. jenner. was your mother working at that time? mr. pic. she was working, sir, when we arrived there, at cox, i believe, department store at the candy counter, i believe it was cox, i know she was working at a candy counter. mr. jenner. all right. mr. pic. when we got there, my mother informed us she had no food in the house so my wife and i went and bought a whole bunch of groceries for our stay which we expected to do. i got in contact with some old friends, and they invited me over for sunday dinner the following sunday at their house, and being i was pressed for time i had another sunday dinner invitation at my brother robert's house. my mother was invited to this dinner. mr. jenner. at your brother's? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. yes. mr. pic. he then resided at davenport street, i believe. well, it seems that my mother declined her part of the invitation, and was quite put out that my wife and i did not decline our part because she decided that we should spend sunday dinner eating with her. so, my wife and i and two children drove off to my brother robert's house to go eat. after we were there for about a half hour, she called us up and told me to come get our bags, that we would have to leave. so, my wife and i, we left the kids at my brother robert's because we knew there would be a big scene with all the trimmings, and we went back and we walked in, didn't say nothing, just packed up our bags and she was yelling and screaming reminding us about the time we threw her out of the apartment in new york and she was getting even with us for this when we threw her and lee out. i then informed her that i wanted nothing more to do with her and that every time she and my wife got together, that she had nothing but bad things to say about her. and i let her know that our relationship ends right then and there, and since that time, sir, i have not written her, talked to her, anything. mr. jenner. or seen her. mr. pic. or have seen her, except in magazines and stuff. she has sent me a bunch of junk in the mail. during this conversation when we was getting thrown out, i reminded her that she made nothing but trouble for us and especially my wife, she was always on my wife. and so i owed her a few dollars for the phone call i had made, so i gave her $ and this seemed to satisfy, well, probably accomplished what she set out to do, get some money off of me one way or the other. this i how i looked at it. this didn't upset her, after we left, after i gave her $ . so, we went to my brother robert's, we ate, we stayed at their house until tuesday morning, and we left and then went to japan, sir. mr. jenner. all right. let's suspend for dinner. mr. pic. could i just add one thing, sir? mr. jenner. yes. mr. pic. while we were there, i was informed that lee was in japan. mr. jenner. you were informed by your mother? mr. pic. yes, sir. and that we should see him when we get there. mr. jenner. were you advised as to where in japan he was? mr. pic. i was given his address, sir. after arriving there it was just a matter of a week or so i received a letter from my mother which i never acknowledged or maybe it was my brother, it was one of the two, saying lee was traveling across the united states at the same time i was. he had left japan before i arrived in japan. i arrived in japan november and i don't know what date he left, sir. i never got to see him in japan. this would probably be a good time to suspend. mr. jenner. before we do that, did you have any conversation with your brother about, your brother robert about your brother lee while you were there in ? mr. pic. i think i may have let him know how lee acted toward me. he didn't want nothing to do with me. the only things i heard about lee was that he was in the marine corps and he liked it. mr. jenner. did your brother robert say anything about having been in new orleans before he came to fort worth? mr. pic. he told me about a trip that he made to pick them up or something down there. they called him up one time and he drove down and got them and drove back all in the same trip. mr. jenner. that must have been the time when they left new orleans and came to fort worth. mr. pic. sir, in the testimony of marilyn murret, i am going to make a statement. mr. jenner. what testimony of marilyn murret? mr. pic. this is what i am going to tell you that prior to his defection she knew he was in europe and everywhere that i read in here, no one knew he was going to europe. she informed me before anyone knew he defected that he was in europe. mr. jenner. who informed you? mr. pic. marilyn murret in japan. she was in japan. she visited with me. mr. jenner. all right. i will go into that right after dinner. mr. pic. all right, sir. mr. jenner. we will suspend until : . (whereupon, at : p.m., the proceeding was recessed.) testimony of john edward pic resumed the proceeding was reconvened at : p.m. mr. jenner. when we adjourned for dinner you were telling us the incident in august, i believe it was , when you visited your mother and your brother on your way to california on your assignment to japan. mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. would you read me the last answer of the witness, please? (the answer, as recorded, was read by the reporter.) mr. jenner. marilyn murret is your cousin? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. one of the children of charles and lillian murret? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. by the way, did your wife and children accompany you to japan? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and you arrived in japan about when? mr. pic. november , sir. mr. jenner. were you aware before you left for japan that marilyn murret, was in japan? mr. pic. she was not in japan then, sir. mr. jenner. all right. you arrived in japan and went over there sometime while you were in japan. by the way, first where were you stationed? mr. pic. my military address was u.s.a.f. hospital, tachikawa, apo , san francisco, calif. mr. jenner. you heard from or saw marilyn murret after you got there? mr. pic. right. in approximately october-november, early november, the end of october she called me up at the hospital, and it had been years since i had seen her, and she told me she had come from australia. she was traveling around the world, and i invited her out to the house the next weekend. she couldn't come during the week. she was teaching school in japan and as a freelance teacher working for no agency, just doing this to earn her own traveling money. so she visited us on a sunday, i believe. we talked about the family and everything. she talked about lee, about how proud he was to be in the marine corps, and he really put on a big show about this. mr. jenner. how did she know that, did she reveal? mr. pic. she had seen him, evidently, when he was first in the marine corps. she described him in uniform, and---- mr. jenner. you had the impression she had actually seen him in japan? mr. pic. no; she wasn't in japan the same time he was. this is a year after i am in japan, sir, before i had seen her. mr. jenner. i see. mr. pic. and she had seen him when he first joined the marine corps, is my impression, sometime while he was in the marine corps and in the states. mr. jenner. you had the impression that lee had visited their home in new orleans? mr. pic. yes, sir; that is the impression i got. mr. jenner. go on. mr. pic. well, at this time, my mother was still writing to me, i never answered any of her letters. maybe i would receive a letter from her every once, every or months. i also was aware of the fact that lee was going to be discharged from the marine corps. mr. jenner. you became aware of that through what means? mr. pic. the letters i would receive from my mother. she informed me that marilyn murret--that lee upon his discharge had gone to europe. i asked her how did he ever decide that, and where did he get the money and she said he saved it while he was in the marine corps. mr. jenner. did she say he had gone to europe? mr. pic. yes, sir. her quote, sir, to the best of my knowledge, "do you know that lee is in europe?" i said, "no, i don't know that." i had no way of knowing that. so i started asking her about him, and this is what she told me that lee had gone to europe. it was that night, sir, on the o'clock news that i learned that lee had defected. mr. jenner. you say o'clock news--was that---- mr. pic. japan time, sir, that night. mr. jenner. i mean, what source was the news? mr. pic. american armed forces network. my wife and i were in bed, and i was about half asleep, and the radio was closest to her and she nudged me and told me, and i said, "no, it couldn't be." so the next day it appeared in the paper. mr. jenner. what paper? mr. pic. the stars and stripes, sir. then i heard it on the radio again the next day. there were a couple or three articles in the stars and stripes about his defection. and i reported to the osi and told them who i was, and i told them who he was. then i got in contact with the embassy in japan. mr. jenner. that is the american embassy? mr. pic. yes, sir; and attempted to contact lee. the only thing i could get out was a telegram. i think my quote in the telegram was "please reconsider your actions." this, i understand, was delivered to him at the metropole hotel in moscow. after this defection i received several---- mr. jenner. excuse me. mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. when you heard this what was your reaction? mr. pic. i didn't believe it. i mean my wife told me it was him, and i think i stayed awake until the o'clock news to hear it and they mentioned it, and that was it, and so the next day it was in the paper and that is when i reported to the osi. mr. jenner. what is osi? mr. pic. office of special investigator, i believe, for the air force. mr. jenner. well, after the rebroadcasts and you became convinced it was your brother what was your reaction? mr. pic. it was hard to believe. it was just something you never expect. mr. jenner. had he done or said anything during all your life together which served to lead you to think, well maybe it is so that he has? mr. pic. well, sir, ever since he was born and i was old enough to remember, i always had a feeling that some great tragedy was going to strike lee in some way or another, and when this happened i figured this was it. in fact, on the very day of the assassination i was thinking about it when i was getting ready to go to work, and just, i was thinking about him at that time and i figured well, when he defected and came back--that was his big tragedy. i found out it wasn't. mr. jenner. would you give me--elaborate on that. why did you have a feeling for some time that someday he would have, would suffer a great tragedy? mr. pic. i don't know. it was just one of those things i can't explain. i always had this feeling about him. not as a kid, of course, but in my young adulthood i thought that about him, especially after the incident in new york. i thought this way. i had this feeling. mr. jenner. you had a feeling at any time that he was groping for a position or station in life, that he realized was beyond his attainment, or any resentment on his part of his station in life? mr. pic. i think he resented the fact that he never really had a father, especially after he lost mr. ekdahl and his one and only chance to get what he was looking for. maybe that is why he looked to robert and i like he did. mr. jenner. did you see marilyn murret again? mr. pic. yes, sir; she and i never discussed this. those were the orders of osi, not to discuss it with anyone. i made them aware of her, her presence in japan. i don't know if they ever contacted her or not, sir. i told them about her mentioning this to me that she knew he was in europe. how she knew, i don't know, sir. and everything i have read states that no one knew he was going. mr. jenner. but she was in your home? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. the very day that the announcement was made? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. that lee had defected to russia? mr. pic. yes, sir; and the radio wasn't on or anything. i had the hi-fi, she liked classical music, and i was playing some of my records for her, and at no time during the day did we have any radio broadcasts. she came about noon. maybe it was on prior to this, i don't think so, because at o'clock---- mr. jenner. if it had been on, prior to that time, she didn't mention any defection? all she said to you was, "did you know that lee was in europe?" is that correct? mr. pic. that is correct, sir. she didn't specify any country. in fact, i asked her what country, and she said she didn't know. she just knew he was in europe. she had come from australia to japan. i think she may have been in japan a month prior to contacting me, a month, a little less probably. mr. jenner. you saw her again after that, did you? mr. pic. yes, sir; she visited our house several times. i think the last time we seen her was about april or may when she left japan. we never seen her again. she said she would contact us and tell us when she was leaving, but she never did. mr. jenner. what was your assignment in japan? mr. pic. i was a medical laboratory technician at the hospital there, sir. mr. jenner. when did you return to the united states? mr. pic. july , sir. mr. jenner. and to where did you return? mr. pic. to lackland air force base where i am presently stationed. in japan, there is more that happened, sir. mr. jenner. all right. mr. pic. i received--i wrote lee, i mean robert, and asked him about this. of course in japan we didn't get much news and the osi wouldn't tell me too much. the embassy, all they confirmed is that he did defect. i guess in a period of , months i got information from robert through several letters. every time i got some information i went to the osi about this. it seems there was a letter, i don't remember if robert had copied it from lee's letter or he had sent me the original letter. i showed this, i gave it to the osi. if they gave it back, it is destroyed now, sir. in this letter he said that no one should try to contact him because the american capitalists would be listening over the phone. he mentioned that he had been contemplating this act for quite awhile. that no one knew it. this is all in my osi report. and from what other information i had, i received the impression that him turning toward communism or marxism, whichever you want to call it, took place while he was in japan and in the marine corps, sir, from the insinuations that were involved in the letter or from his own statements. mr. jenner. up to this time, sergeant, in all your association with your brother, had there been occasions when there were discussions with him in the family about any theories or reactions of his toward democracy, communism, marxism, or any other form of government? mr. pic. sir, the last time he talked to me, i think he was only about , years old. mr. jenner. well, the answer is no? mr. pic. no, sir; that is the answer--no, sir. mr. jenner. that is that there hadn't been any such discussions? mr. pic. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. you--i take it from that answer--you never heard him assert any views? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. on his part, with respect to that subject matter? mr. pic. no, sir. while i was processing to return to the states, i had seen in the paper and everything that lee was returning to the united states. when i got my assignment to lackland, the osi kind of put it to me that if i didn't want to be in the same vicinity as lee that they could change my orders, and i told them that the united states felt he was reliable enough for, confident enough in him to let him return, that i would see no reason to change my assignment. the osi authorities said there was no objection to me visiting him, talking to him or anything else. so i didn't make any attempt to get my assignment changed because of these reasons. being it was close enough, you know, to see him fairly easily. mr. jenner. did anything else occur that you think is pertinent to the time of your return to the united states? mr. pic. no, sir; the only thing i knew about him was what i read in the newspaper about him returning with his wife and child. mr. jenner. when you say newspapers this is the stars and stripes? mr. pic. yes, sir; stars and stripes. mr. jenner. that is before you returned to this country you had read in the stars and stripes that he had returned to the united states? mr. pic. no, sir; he was on his way, sir. mr. jenner. he was on his way back? mr. pic. he was on his way back at the same time i was on my way back. mr. jenner. you knew he was on his way back, according to the stars and stripes, with his wife and child? mr. pic. yes; sir. mr. jenner. and you arrived at lackland air force base when? mr. pic. i arrived in the san antonio area approximately the st of july , and got a house, got settled and then i signed in on my base in august. i was permitted days leave, days travel time, which i took advantage of. i think i took days leave. so i started work in august, the latter part of august. mr. jenner. during that period of time of your days' leave, after arriving at lackland air force base and san antonio, did you make any attempt to find out anything about your brother, where he was? mr. pic. yes, sir; i called robert, and we wrote a couple of letters, and he told me lee was back, and he was living in dallas and working there, and everything seemed to be okay. mr. jenner. did your brother tell you that lee, when he returned to this country, had lived with him for a while? mr. pic. i don't know if it was in these conversations. i learned at the thanksgiving reunion that he did. mr. jenner. which was thanksgiving of ? mr. pic. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. up to the time you saw your brother, i take it, you saw him thanksgiving ? mr. pic. yes, sir; we arrived at my brother robert's thanksgiving day between about : , : . mr. jenner. in the morning? mr. pic. in the morning. we were to meet lee and his wife at the greyhound bus station approximately o'clock. so robert and i went down to pick him up. we picked them up outside the greyhound bus station. whether or not they--we had no way of seeing them getting off a bus. they were at the station when we got there. we did all the friendly sayings and i was---- mr. jenner. tell us what happened now? what was the attitude, what were your impressions? mr. pic. well, i still was wondering if he was going to have this feeling of hostility toward me that he had shown the last time he had seen me, but it didn't manifest itself whatsoever. he introduced me to his wife, and i gave her a kiss, and his child. we got in the car, and he said i hadn't changed much, and we just talked like that. at no time did marina speak any english. she would ask him questions in what i believe was russian and he would talk back to her in--and talk through. mr. jenner. did you have any discussion with him on that subject--where he had learned russian? mr. pic. well, sir, i knew he had been in russia over years, so evidently he had learned russian while there. mr. jenner. there was no occasion because of that, it never occurred to you to ask him about how and when he had learned? mr. pic. i wasn't going to pry into his affairs, sir. mr. jenner. you didn't? mr. pic. no, sir; i didn't. mr. jenner. did you inquire of him as to his life in russia? mr. pic. we let him do the talking, sir. mr. jenner. did he speak of it? mr. pic. yes, sir; he did. mr. jenner. what did he say? mr. pic. he told us he worked in a factory there. mr. jenner. did he say what kind of work he did? mr. pic. no, sir; he didn't. mr. jenner. what kind of a factory it was? mr. pic. something to do with metalwork, aluminum, something like that, i believe. he told me he was making about $ a month, i think, while he worked there. mr. jenner. did he say he had accommodations that supplemented that salary? was there anything about whether he had to pay rent or not pay rent for his quarters? mr. pic. he didn't talk about anything prior to him and marina being married. mr. jenner. he did not? mr. pic. no, sir; all the conversation was after their marriage. mr. jenner. no discussion of his as to why he went to russia in the first place? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. was there any discussion of his defection or attempted defection? mr. pic. per se, no, sir. mr. jenner. you are qualifying that. you say per se. mr. pic. right. he did mention that because of his actions he had received a dishonorable discharge from the marine corps and that he was attempting to get this changed to an honorable status. mr. jenner. did he appear bitter about it? mr. pic. he showed us his card which stated dishonorable or bad conduct, something like that. i think it was dishonorable. he showed it to me. mr. jenner. what was his--what impression did you have as to his overall attitude? what impression did you have as to his state of mind? mr. pic. he impressed me that he was glad to be back, that he didn't really enjoy his stay in russia. he commented about the hard life they had there. mr. jenner. what did he say about that? mr. pic. what did he say, sir? mr. jenner. yes. mr. pic. a shortage of food, rationing of certain items, about eating a lot of cabbage. he did say that the u.s. government gave him the money to come back on. he was in the process of paying them back. in fact, he let it be known that regardless of anything else he was going to pay the government back. mr. jenner. did he say "regardless of anything else, i am going to pay them back"? on what do you base that conclusory statement? mr. pic. well, he made the statement they paid and he is paying them back, and he has got this job and he was telling me his financial situation, and saying so much money is going to pay the government back. mr. jenner. what did he say about his financial situation? mr. pic. he didn't give me--this is what he gave me for an address. he said he lived in an apartment, one room apartment. they had no television, no radio, no coffee pot. in fact, we brought him a coffee pot for a present. gave them a coffee pot and bought the little girl a stuffed animal of some type. mr. jenner. thanksgiving day you did this? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. how come you brought him a coffee pot? mr. pic. i was going to give him a present. mr. jenner. it is the coffee pot that interests me. here you hadn't seen him for a long time, you were bringing him a gift--why were you---- mr. pic. well, my wife being a yankee---- mr. jenner. why did you bring him a coffee pot? mr. pic. my wife in her yankee ways believed when you don't see people a long time you bring them a gift. it's just a token. we brought my brother robert a present, a set of dishes i had in japan, i bought them in japan, and so naturally we couldn't give them anything without giving the other people something. mr. jenner. it isn't the fact that you brought him a gift. i can understand that. that would be, i might be even a little surprised if you hadn't. it is the particular gift in which i am interested. why did you select a coffee pot? was there something that led to that particular selection on your part? mr. pic. no, sir; we didn't know what really to bring them, and my wife says, it was one of these glass coffee pots that you put the candle under, you see, it wasn't a regular percolator. it was one of these that a hostess always likes to have available to pour coffee out of. mr. jenner. i see. mr. pic. and my wife had one, and she liked it so she figured we would give them one. mr. jenner. all right. tell us everything that occurred on that day, what he said, what robert said that is pertinent, what you said, things that occurred, just completely exhaust your recollection. mr. pic. well, lee informed us that he was working at some type photography printing company. mr. jenner. in dallas? mr. pic. yes, sir; in dallas. mr. jenner. you were advised during the course of that day he was then at that time living in dallas? mr. pic. yes, sir; that is what he said. mr. jenner. and working in some kind of photographic work in dallas? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. all right. mr. pic. i said he referred to their living conditions. mr. jenner. what did he say? mr. pic. they had a one-room, i think it was one room. they ate and slept in the same room, i believe. they had no radio, no tv. that marina, when they first arrived, was really astounded about supermarkets. every time she went in one she lost control of herself. marina herself wore no lipstick, very plainly dressed. lee appeared to be a good father in that he would relieve marina the burden of holding the child and taking care of it. mr. jenner. how was he attired when you met him at the bus station? mr. pic. he had on a sport jacket and tie. sports jacket and tie. mr. jenner. he was clean and neat? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. how did marina and your brother lee appear to be getting along? mr. pic. well, sir; being they only spoke russian to each other, i don't know what they said but they appeared to be just like any other married couple married a year or . mr. jenner. was there any conversation during the course of the day in which you participated or overheard as to marina's undertaking to learn english? mr. pic. well, my sister-in-law, vada---- mr. jenner. that is robert's wife? mr. pic. wife. of course, she had, she and my wife had a lot to say to each other, and through my wife, i found out what vada had said to her, that lee did not permit marina to wear any lipstick, he did not permit her to learn english. my wife, she thought this was really absurd and said the best thing to do was to get them a tv set and let her sit home and learn english. my wife thought it was terrible the way her conditions were as far as this was concerned. the girls seemed to gather in the dinette and we sat around in the living room, talking. mr. jenner. was anything said by vada or your wife on that occasion as to the reason why lee was not permitting marina to learn english and speak it and write it? mr. pic. well, my wife assumed that if she did ever learn english she would wise up, being we had seen the japanese wise with their husbands. for example, while they were living over in japan and the wife is usually meek and mild but when they get over here they change, you see, she gets her american ways, and lowers the boom on the husband like all the other american wives do. and my wife was under the impression that this would happen if once she did learn english and everything. mr. jenner. all right. keep talking about what occurred on this particular day, what was said, what your impressions were until you exhaust all of your recollection. mr. pic. well, marina and the two wives helped prepare the meal, set the table, and we ate, and there was family talk. at no time did we mention our mother. she wasn't present. in fact--i will take that statement back. some time during our stay there vada mentioned that she had seen my mother driving around with a man and she thought she had remarried. this may have been that day, it may have been a day or so later. we stayed there thursday, friday, and saturday and we left sunday. mr. jenner. was anything said during the course of that occasion or in your presence or reported to you by your wife, as to how vada and marina had gotten along while the oswalds, your brother, and she lived with your brother robert and your sister-in-law vada? mr. pic. i wouldn't remember that, sir. if it was any talk it was probably on caring, and so forth, about the child and so forth, which is small talk to the men, of course. mr. jenner. did you learn on that day that lee had lived with your brother for a while? mr. pic. i had learned during that time period that lee and marina had lived with robert when they returned, and that an attempt was made by the press and tv to contact them, but robert wouldn't let them. he wasn't going to go through it again. robert only had a one--two-bedroom apartment, i mean house, and i am sure when we stayed there we were crowded a little bit. my wife and i slept on the floor, and i am sure marina and robert, i don't know where they slept--i mean lee. mr. jenner. your children slept in the bed and you and your wife slept on a mattress on the floor? mr. pic. a couple of blankets on the floor, sir. mr. jenner. did you learn during that period of time that lee had lived with your brother for a time? mr. pic. possibly, sir; i don't recall. mr. jenner. was anything said about the fact or any allusion to the fact that during this period, up to thanksgiving day, there had been a time when marina had not lived with your brother lee? mr. pic. no, sir. i understood they arrived from new york, at new york together, and proceeded--there was a short stay, i think, mentioned in new york. where they stayed, i don't know, sir, and then they proceeded to texas and lived with robert. mr. jenner. i am referring particularly to september and october and part of november . was there any reference or any discussion of it or anything said in your presence of the fact that marina had lived apart, separate and apart from lee? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. during one or more periods of time in september or october and november ? mr. pic. possibly it could have been being marina stayed there while lee went to look for a job in dallas. i think, that may have been mentioned. mr. jenner. was there at any time mentioned even while he was working in fort worth, fully employed that she had separated from him and gone to live elsewhere? mr. pic. i am not aware that he did work in fort worth, sir, at any time. mr. jenner. you didn't learn at that time, thanksgiving, that he had worked in fort worth? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. was the leslie welding co. mentioned at all? mr. pic. something about welding was mentioned, that he tried it when he first came back, now that you mention it. mr. jenner. was it your impression or did you gain the impression then that he had had some employment in fort worth then as a welder? mr. pic. i don't remember if it was fort worth, sir, or where it was. i just know that welding was mentioned. mr. jenner. in that connection, was it mentioned or in any fashion indicated to you that he had been employed as a welder whether in fort worth or otherwise, but he had been employed as a welder? mr. pic. it was my impression because of his experience in the soviet union working with metals that this helped him in getting his job as a welder. mr. jenner. when he first returned? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and that that was a position or work that he had had prior to the time that he obtained the position in dallas about which he spoke? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. that is a position preceding his work in the photography field in some firm in dallas? mr. pic. right. mr. jenner. anything said about his financial status--that is, his and marina's, and the child? mr. pic. well, he said he wasn't making very much money, but they were managing to get by. they couldn't afford a tv, couldn't afford a radio, couldn't afford these necessities of life. mr. jenner. did he say anything during the course of that day on the subject of any political philosophy of his? mr. pic. no, sir; not at all. mr. jenner. politics wasn't discussed? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. whether party politics or politics in the broad sense? mr. pic. no, sir; not at all. mr. jenner. how did he look to you physically as compared with when you had seen him last? mr. pic. i would have never recognized him, sir. mr. jenner. all right. your brother robert said something along these lines. you had last seen him in --that was prior to this occasion, the last time you had seen him was when he was in new york city? mr. pic. which was a little over years. mr. jenner. well, just about years. mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. of course you had seen him in february , i think you said. mr. pic. right. but we walked in and he walked out. mr. jenner. but you saw him? mr. pic. right, i had seen him for a moment. mr. jenner. he was then at that particular time in the neighborhood of years of age? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. now, when you saw him years later he was . mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. you noticed, did you, a material change, physically first, let's take his physical appearance? mr. pic. yes, sir. physically i noticed that. mr. jenner. what did you notice? mr. pic. he was much thinner than i had remembered him. he didn't have as much hair. mr. jenner. did that arrest your attention? was that a material difference? did that strike you? mr. pic. yes, sir; it struck me quite profusely. mr. jenner. what else did you notice about his physical appearance that arrested your attention? mr. pic. his face features were somewhat different, being his eyes were set back maybe, you know like in these army pictures, they looked different than i remembered him. his face was rounder. marilyn had described him to me when he went in the marine corps as having a bull neck. this i didn't notice at all. i looked for this, i didn't notice this at all, sir. mr. jenner. he seemed more slender? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. he had materially less hair? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. his eyes seemed a little sunken? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. did he give you the appearance of--was he taut, was he relaxed or taut, or just what appearance did he have in that connection? mr. pic. sir, he didn't strike me as being relaxed because i was not with him. mr. jenner. you were not? mr. pic. no, sir; because of these other feelings we had developed years prior to this. i wondered about how he still felt about that. mr. jenner. but nothing occurred to lead you to believe that he still remembered it vividly, or did or didn't? mr. pic. when he was introduced to my wife again he did mention that he remembered her. but other than that, he completely ignored her. mr. jenner. was that pretty obvious? mr. pic. to her it was, sir. she mentioned it to me several times. he arrived about . mr. jenner. in the afternoon? mr. pic. right; and that is when we picked him up, so i guess we ate about , o'clock or so. and then the girls cleared off the table and they sat and had coffee and i took them out, they wanted to see my car. mr. jenner. took who out? mr. pic. lee and robert both. they looked at my car. mr. jenner. did you take marina out with you? mr. pic. no; she stayed in the house with the girls, and we talked about cars. mr. jenner. what did he say about a car? mr. pic. i was made aware sometime during the day that he wasn't driving. other than this---- mr. jenner. how did you become aware of that? mr. pic. he said he couldn't get a license, to me. mr. jenner. did he say why he couldn't get a license? mr. pic. he said it and give me the impression because of his citizenship status being he had a dishonorable discharge. mr. jenner. did you ever see your brother lee harvey oswald drive an automobile? mr. pic. no, sir; never in my life. mr. jenner. while you boys were still in fort worth and before you enlisted in the coast guard in january had you--you had an automobile, didn't you? mr. pic. i drove the family car. mr. jenner. did your brother robert drive? mr. pic. he may have known how. he was not permitted to drive the family car. mr. jenner. i remember when i was a boy i wasn't permitted to drive the family car, in the broad sense. mr. pic. right. he never swiped it. mr. jenner. i was permitted to drive it up and down the driveway or when my father was with me, i could drive it around the block or something like that the way kids do. was robert permitted to do that on a limited scale? mr. pic. i wouldn't remember that, sir. mr. jenner. did you own what we used to call in my day an old jalopy while you were still in fort worth? mr. pic. that picture of that automobile there was quite an old jalopy, sir. mr. jenner. that was before you enlisted? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. did your brother robert ever drive that? mr. pic. to the best of my recollection, no, sir. in fact, i only drove it a few times myself. this is the picture with the dog. mr. jenner. that is the picture of the car in john pic's exhibit no. ? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. lee never drove it, to your knowledge? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. was your brother robert interested in automobiles? mr. pic. all kids are interested in automobiles. mr. jenner. no; please--was he interested in automobiles? mr. pic. sure, he wanted to drive. he seen i was driving so he wanted to drive and he wasn't as old as i was, i was permitted to drive and he wasn't. mr. jenner. what about your brother lee harvey oswald in that respect? mr. pic. i don't know if he ever was really interested at that age to drive a car or not, sir. mr. jenner. was anything said on the day, thanksgiving day , to lead you to believe that he knew how to drive or operate an automobile? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. by the way, are you right handed? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. is your brother lee right or left handed? mr. pic. i think he was right handed, sir. i think we were all right handed, robert had tendencies toward the left hand and i think my mother made him change. mr. jenner. was anything said during the course of that occasion when you saw him about his experiences in the marines? mr. pic. there probably was, sir, but i don't remember what they referred to. i know he told me he was at atsugo naval air station. this i didn't know until he told me exactly where he was in japan. i was familiar with the atsugo area. mr. jenner. did he say anything about having been in the philippines? mr. pic. reading the magazine i now know that---- mr. jenner. did he say anything then? mr. pic. no, sir; at that time i don't remember knowing that he had been in the philippines. mr. jenner. did he say anything about ever having been in formosa? mr. pic. no, sir. just japan, i think possibly korea, maybe, was mentioned. mr. jenner. but there was no discussion of his marine career to speak of? mr. pic. he was affiliated with radar, he told me, radio radar. mr. jenner. did the subject arise of why he went to russia? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. that was not discussed at all? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. nothing was said? anything said about his experiences in russia prior to the time he became married there? mr. pic. no sir; he didn't mention that at all to me. mr. jenner. and anything said about his problems with the--i will withdraw that. was anything said about his defection or attempted defection to russia? mr. pic. no, sir; he did not mention his defection at all. why he did it or how he did it, he didn't mention anything, and i didn't ask him. mr. jenner. during the several days you were in fort worth visiting your brother robert, did you and he go hunting? mr. pic. we went fishing, sir. mr. jenner. fishing? i take it you did not go hunting. mr. pic. no, sir; not at that particular time. when i first went there in , we did go hunting. mr. jenner. i see. when you three boys were in fort worth, that is before you enlisted in january , did you boys occasionally go hunting? mr. pic. we had no firearms whatsoever, sir, in the house. mr. jenner. so you did not go hunting? mr. pic. i didn't. robert possibly did with some friends of his. i don't think lee ever did. we went fishing several times. mr. jenner. after you returned to this country in , thereafter there were occasions, where there, or some one occasion, at least, when you did go squirrel or rabbit hunting with your brother robert? mr. pic. no, sir; that was in . mr. jenner. oh, yes. when you were traveling across country to california? mr. pic. yes; we went to his in-law's farm and we did a little hunting on his father-in-law's property. mr. jenner. what kind of firearms? mr. pic. . , sir. mr. jenner. single shot? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. you say the subject of your mother was not mentioned in the course of this thanksgiving day visit? mr. pic. no, sir; robert and i never brought her up in any conversations we had. mr. jenner. did lee? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. what did he say about her? mr. pic. he mentioned her, that he had seen her or been in touch with her when he first came back, maybe even stayed with her for a week or two when he first came back, i don't remember. my wife later told me that marina couldn't get along with my mother. mr. jenner. marina told your wife that she couldn't get along with your mother? mr. pic. no, sir; i think it was vada told my wife that marina couldn't. i think she rather observed this rather than being told by marina. mr. jenner. i see. mr. pic. that the two of them, not that they didn't get along, but that marina disliked her. mr. jenner. is that the last time you saw your brother lee? mr. pic. well, sir, in the course of that thanksgiving day, my brother robert offered to drive him back to the bus station. lee made a phone call and it was my understanding that the people that he phoned were of russian descent, and that marina often visited with them or talked with them, so she could talk in her own native tongue, and that their boy, who was attending, i believe, the university of oklahoma---- mr. jenner. paul gregory? mr. pic. sir, i don't remember his name at all, because i was mad at the time i was introduced to him. mr. jenner. introduced to whom? mr. pic. this gentleman who picked him up. mr. jenner. was he a young man? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. all right, tell us the circumstances, tell us what led up to this incident, and tell us all about the incident. mr. pic. well, they made the phone call, and lee said that they would be picked up by their friends, and i think sometime between and that night he came by. now, my brother robert, whenever he introduces me to anyone always refers to me as his brother. lee referred to me as his half brother when he introduced me. mr. jenner. on this occasion? mr. pic. it was very pronounced. he wanted to let the man know i was only his half brother. and this kind of peeved me a little bit. because we never mentioned the fact that we were half brothers. mr. jenner. you never had that feeling? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. was this the first time that your brother had ever introduced you to anyone as his half brother? i am talking about your brother lee now. mr. pic. i think possibly, sir, this is the first time he ever introduced me to anyone. mr. jenner. was this the first time he had ever referred to you as your half brother? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. his half brother? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. is that so? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and that irritated you on this occasion? mr. pic. yes, sir. right then and there i had the feeling that the hostile feeling was still there. up until this time it didn't show itself, but i felt then, well, he still felt the same way. mr. jenner. this young man from the university of oklahoma, whose name, by the way, was gregory---- mr. pic. he was at the university of oklahoma. mr. jenner. yes. mr. pic. i have said this three or four times, i wasn't certain, but i am sure he was and i was introduced to him as lee's half brother, and the man was studying russian at the school. his parents were from russia. mr. jenner. he came alone, did he? mr. pic. the car was parked out front, sir. mr. jenner. well, he was alone when he came in? mr. pic. he was in the house alone. mr. jenner. was it night? mr. pic. yes; it was dark between and in november. mr. jenner. did you go out to the car? mr. pic. no; i didn't. we stayed in the house. mr. jenner. did robert go out to the car? mr. pic. i don't remember, sir. i don't think so. mr. jenner. did marina appear to be acquainted with this young man? mr. pic. yes; as soon as he walked in she started talking russian to him. mr. jenner. did he respond in russian? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. lee spoke to him in russian? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. except when he was introducing you to him he introduced you in english as his half brother? mr. pic. well, lee would speak to him part russian, part english. he was only there maybe a couple or minutes. i had the impression that this gentleman could speak russian better than lee. mr. jenner. what gave you that impression? mr. pic. because lee wouldn't converse fully with him in russian whereas him and marina did converse fully in russian. mr. jenner. any other impressions you got of this several hours visit with your brother lee? mr. pic. well, right before they left, sir; i told him that if he needs any help or anything, to let me know. i told him i was unable to help him financially but he is welcome to pay us a visit any time he wished, stay with us, talk like that. mr. jenner. what did he say? mr. pic. he said ok. he told me to write to him, and in this book, sir, which i had there he wrote his post office box address in dallas. mr. jenner. we will give that little book, to which you make reference, john pic exhibit no. . (the document referred to was marked john pic exhibit no. for identification.) mr. jenner. i have john pic exhibit no. in my hand. what is this? mr. pic. a black memo book, i guess. mr. jenner. of yours? mr. pic. yes, sir; i had it in my car at the time. whenever i travel i keep a little book with my mileage on it and so forth. mr. jenner. i notice that the fist ruled page of this book on which there appear some figures, the letter "b" and then there are some handwritings which appears to be russian. i show that to you. mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. in whose handwriting is that? mr. pic. that is in the handwriting of marina oswald, sir. mr. jenner. what was the occasion of her writing in this book? mr. pic. only part of this, sir, is in the handwriting of marina oswald. this right here [indicating]. mr. jenner. that is the word beginning with the letter, it looks like the letter "n" or "m" and the word right below that beginning with the letter "d," and a word right below that beginning, it looks like a capital "h"? mr. pic. that is right, sir. the other ones are in my handwriting. mr. jenner. the others are all figures? mr. pic. right. mr. jenner. what was the occasion of her writing that on the page? mr. pic. she being a pharmacist, and me being in the medical field, we tried to communicate with each other just to make small talk with medical terminology, metric system and so forth, just some way to kill time with each other she and i seemed to be able to do this to some degree. mr. jenner. that is to communicate? mr. pic. yes; as long as we stuck within the pharmacy and medical field. mr. jenner. did she know some english terms in the pharmacy, medical field? mr. pic. she used latin phrases, some of which were familiar to me. mr. jenner. just what was that writing, some medical terms? mr. pic. yes; i think these are names of drugs she was writing down. i wouldn't know. mr. jenner. there is a large letter "b" on that page. how did that get on there? mr. pic. i don't know, sir. i don't know, sir. i wouldn't venture a guess whose handwriting it is. mr. jenner. there is a square to the left of the handwriting in russian, what does that signify? mr. pic. this was placed there by the secret service, in san antonio, sir, to identify the handwritings in this book, the square being the handwriting of marina oswald, the parentheses being the handwriting of myself and the mark with the circle being the handwriting of lee harvey oswald. mr. jenner. so that wherever throughout that book a zero appears that is the handwriting of lee harvey oswald? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. wherever the parentheses mark appears that is your handwriting? mr. pic. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. and wherever the square appears that is marina's handwriting? mr. pic. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. turn the page over. on the reverse side of that page that is all your handwriting? mr. pic. except this up here, sir. mr. jenner. the reverse side of the previous page. mr. pic. yes, sir; that is my handwriting. mr. jenner. all right. now, the front side of the next page which has the letter "a" printed on it, in the upper right-hand corner. is that in your handwriting? mr. pic. everything except this top portion, sir. mr. jenner. the top portion? mr. pic. starting with liquid measure would be my handwriting. mr. jenner. and then there is something above that? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. whose handwriting is that? mr. pic. i believe that to be marina oswald's, sir. mr. jenner. everything below that is yours? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. all right. the reverse side of that page, that is the reverse side of the "a" page is in whose handwriting? mr. pic. my handwriting, sir. mr. jenner. then the page opposite that? mr. pic. that is in my handwriting, sir. mr. jenner. the reverse side of that page is blank. then the face of the next page is some figures and the words "highway start, fort worth," and "highway" again, those are all in whose handwriting? mr. pic. my handwriting, sir. mr. jenner. then the series of pages are blank, and the first writing we see thereafter is on the "c" page, some letters and a figure. whose handwriting is that? mr. pic. that is mine, sir. mr. jenner. the next handwriting appears on the last ruled page. whose handwriting is that? mr. pic. that is the handwriting of my wife, sir. mr. jenner. all of it? mr. pic. yes, sir; she loves to write her name. mr. jenner. all right. then on the next to the last page in the book which is a plain white page, appears p.o. box , dallas, tex. mr. pic. that is the handwriting of lee harvey oswald, sir. mr. jenner. and on the opposite page, which is the inside of the back cover---- mr. pic. this is the identifying mark in the hand of secret service agent ben a. vidles, in san antonio, tex. mr. jenner. this book is in the same condition now as it was? mr. pic. when i gave it to the secret service. mr. jenner. when you gave it to the secret service. mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. plus the identifying marks you have described? mr. pic. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. i offer in evidence a document, memorandum book now marked as "john pic exhibit no. ." (the document heretofore marked for identification as john pic exhibit no. was received in evidence.) mr. jenner. did you thereafter prior to november , up to but prior to november , , hear anything about your brother? mr. pic. the day or two after they left robert and i went fishing. while we were in the boat there was robert, myself, and my oldest boy, and at this time i asked him about lee, i asked him if he considered or thought that lee was a little on the pink side and just how he was getting along. robert informed me that he had had seen fbi agents once in awhile who said lee was doing pretty good and that there was nothing to worry about. and all reports that he had had were favorable towards lee. mr. jenner. robert did tell you that the fbi had checked with him? mr. pic. he had seen an agent now and then, sir. mr. jenner. he didn't elaborate as to whether the fbi had come to visit him or whether he had merely run into some fbi agent? mr. pic. i had the impression that they had visited him where he worked, sir. mr. jenner. did you hear anything else about your brother from that occasion up to but not including november , ? mr. pic. well, other information i gathered from my talks with robert in those few days was that lee and marina made the trip to see them in fort worth fairly regular, to have dinner, things like this. it seems that vada and marina were at one time, i was told, talking---- mr. jenner. by whom? mr. pic. by vada, marina was trying to make a point about her wedding ring being she couldn't speak english, vada got the impression that marina had been married before. mr. jenner. that marina had been married before? mr. pic. yes, sir; this is the only thing she could gather from marina flashing her wedding ring and talking about this. the four of us were present, robert, myself, and the two wives. but this was done over coffee. mr. jenner. this was after lee and marina had left? mr. pic. yes, sir; this was after they had left. mr. jenner. what did robert say on that subject, if anything? mr. pic. nothing. that he didn't think she had been married before. mr. jenner. did you visit your brother robert, and did he visit you subsequent to that occasion on thanksgiving up to but not including november , ? mr. pic. a couple or days prior to christmas of , robert and his family returned the visit to our home in san antonio, sir. i asked robert this time if he had seen or heard from lee since we had last seen him and he told me, no. mr. jenner. was there any comment on that subject that he had not heard from lee up to that time? mr. pic. it was really only a matter of or weeks at the most, sir. mr. jenner. so it didn't occasion any surprise on your part? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. were you given any other information by robert with respect to lee? mr. pic. no, sir; not that i recall. mr. jenner. did you see robert again subsequent to this pre-christmas party ? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. and up to but not including november , ? mr. pic. i still haven't seen him since christmas . mr. jenner. have you corresponded? mr. pic. we have written a few letters, and i was permitted to make a phone call to him right after the assassination. mr. jenner. what did he say in the course of that conversation? what did you say? mr. pic. this was--i was permitted to make the phone call after lee's murder. the secret service said i could contact robert. he had called where i worked and left a number. i contacted the secret service. they told me go ahead and call this number, call them back and tell them the gist of the conversation. i called him up at this number. someone answered the phone and i asked for robert and they called him to the phone. he told me that he and his--told me his wife and children were at the farm with her folks, i believe that is what he told me. that he was--he couldn't tell me where he was but he was in arlington, tex. mr. jenner. robert was? mr. pic. yes, sir; under custody of the secret service. mr. jenner. what day of the week was this? mr. pic. this was sunday, sir. mr. jenner. the day of the death of your brother? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. the th of november ? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. what else was said? mr. pic. he told me that some local business people would make arrangements for the funeral and there would be no expense to him. i told him i was sorry it happened and everything. mr. jenner. did he say anything about having seen your brother at the dallas city police station prior to this telephone conversation? mr. pic. no, sir; he didn't. mr. jenner. was there any discussion in this telephone conversation about the assassination of president kennedy? mr. pic. no, sir; there wasn't. mr. jenner. about the possible involvement of your brother in that connection? mr. pic. no, sir; there wasn't. mr. jenner. i take it, then, it was confined largely, if not exclusively, to the death of your brother? mr. pic. the conversation was just about as i related it, sir. it was mostly confined to the death of lee. mr. jenner. and his burial? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. did you attend the funeral services? mr. pic. no, sir; i was not permitted. in fact, the secret service did not let me write robert for, i think, to days after the assassination. at that time they granted me permission to freely correspond with him. mr. jenner. and you did so? mr. pic. i think we have written about two, three letters back and forth. i am the one who fails to write. he never fails to write. mr. jenner. the subject matter of these letters involved lee; any of them? mr. pic. i think the very first one i got concerned the welfare of his family. they were out at the farm. that his company treated him very good about all the time lost. that marina asked about us and how we were getting along. in my return letter to him i told him nobody had bothered us and we were getting along just fine. he informed me that he was--i suggested if they could, to come down and stay with us awhile. we had just purchased a new house, we had the room, and he wrote back and told me that because he had missed all the time because of the incidents he was unable to get any more time from his company without losing his job. mr. jenner. have you seen marina in the meantime? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. the last time you saw her, i take it, then, was thanksgiving day ? mr. pic. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. has there been any correspondence between you? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. has there been any correspondence that was indirect in any fashion? mr. pic. my last letter i received from robert was right after he appeared here. he mentioned that marina often asked about my wife and i. other than this, there has been no mention. he has mentioned about the grave being desecrated, and some information concerning the gravesite of lee. mr. jenner. before i return to some specifics, is there anything else that has occurred to you in your reflection on this matter that you would like to mention? mr. pic. the actual assassination, that time period or what, sir? mr. jenner. well, anything you think that might be relevant to the commission's investigation as to the circumstances surrounding the assassination of president kennedy, any persons involved therein, the subsequent death of your brother. mr. pic. most of the information that i have seen and heard has been all new to me, like his escapades in new orleans, passing out the leaflets and his radio program. mr. jenner. those incidents, by the way, were unknown to you until after the assassination, i take it? mr. pic. yes, sir; i assure you if i had known he was doing his escapades again i would have went to the proper authorities about it. mr. jenner. i show you an exhibit, a series of exhibits, first commission exhibit no. and exhibit no. being some spread pages of an issue of life magazine of february , . i direct your attention first to the lower left-hand spread at the bottom of the page. do you recognize the area shown there? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. do you see somebody in that picture that appears to be your brother? mr. pic. this one here with the arrow. mr. jenner. the one that has the printed arrow? mr. pic. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. and you recognize that as your brother? mr. pic. because they say so, sir. mr. jenner. please, i don't want you to say---- mr. pic. no; i couldn't recognize that. mr. jenner. because this magazine says that it is. mr. pic. no, sir; i couldn't recognize him from that picture. mr. jenner. you don't recognize anybody else in the picture after studying it that appears to be your brother? when i say your brother now, i am talking about lee. mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. in the upper portion there are a series of photographs spread from left-hand page across to the right-hand page. take those on the left which appears to be a photograph of three young men. do you recognize the persons shown in that photograph? mr. pic. yes; i recognize this photograph, the people from left to right being robert oswald, the center one being lee oswald, and the third one being myself. this picture was taken at the house in dallas when we returned from new orleans. mr. jenner. you mean from--when you came from new orleans after being at the bethlehem orphanage home? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and you went to dallas? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. it was taken in dallas at or about that time? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. the next one is prominent; in front is a picture of a young boy. there is a partially shown girl and apparently another boy with a striped shirt in the background. do you recognize that picture? mr. pic. yes; i recognize that as lee harvey oswald. mr. jenner. do you have any impression as to when and where that was taken? mr. pic. just looking at the picture, i would guess first, second grade, maybe. i would have to guess at it. mr. jenner. then there is one immediately to the right of that, a young man in the foreground sitting on the floor, with his knees, legs crossed, and his arms also crossed. there are some other people apparently in the background. mr. pic. i recognize that as lee harvey oswald. mr. jenner. does anything about the picture enable you to identify as to where that was taken? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. then to the right there is a picture of two young men, the upper portion of the--one young man at the bottom and then apparently a young man standing up in back of that person. do you recognize either of those young people? mr. pic. yes; i recognize lee harvey oswald. mr. jenner. is he the one to which the black arrow is pointing? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. then right below that is a picture of a young man standing in front of an iron fence, which appears to be probably at a zoo. do you recognize that? mr. pic. sir, from that picture, i could not recognize that that is lee harvey oswald. mr. jenner. that young fellow is shown there, he doesn't look like you recall lee looked in and when you saw him in new york city? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. commission exhibit no. --do you recognize anybody in that picture that appears to be lee oswald? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. there is a young fellow in the foreground--everybody else is facing the other way. he is in a pantomime, or grimace. do you recognize that as lee harvey oswald? mr. pic. no, sir; looking at that picture--and i have looked at it several times--that looks more like robert than it does lee, to my recollection. mr. jenner. all right. on exhibit no. , the lower right-hand corner, there is another picture. do you recognize that as your brother lee in that picture? mr. pic. yes, sir; that is about how he looked when i seen him in , his profile. mr. jenner. do you recognize the person, the lady to the right who is pointing her finger at him? mr. pic. no, sir; i don't. mr. jenner. exhibit no. is two figures, taking them from top to bottom and in the lower right-hand corner, do you recognize those? mr. pic. no, sir; i don't. mr. jenner. neither one of them? mr. pic. no, sir. the lower one appears to me to look like robert rather than lee. the upper one, unless they tell me that, i would never guess that that would be lee, sir. mr. jenner. all right. exhibit no. , there is in the lower left-hand corner, there is a reproduction of a service card and a reproduction, also, of a photograph with the head of a man. do you recognize that? mr. pic. that looks to me approximately how lee oswald looked when i seen him thanksgiving . mr. jenner. directing your attention to exhibit, commission exhibit no. , do you recognize any of the servicemen shown in that picture as your brother lee? mr. pic. no, sir; i do not recognize them. mr. jenner. exhibit no. , the lower left-hand corner there is a photograph of a young lady and a young man. do you recognize either of those persons? mr. pic. he appears to me as lee harvey oswald in when i seen him. mr. jenner. and the lady? mr. pic. she is his wife, marina, sir. mr. jenner. commission exhibit no. , at the bottom of the page, there is a picture of a young man handing out a leaflet, and another man to the left of him who is reaching out for it. do you recognize the young man handing out the leaflet? mr. pic. no, sir; i would be unable to recognize him. mr. jenner. as to whether he was your brother? mr. pic. that is correct. mr. jenner. exhibit no. , in the upper right-hand corner, is a picture of a lady, a young lady with a child. do you recognize either of those persons? mr. pic. yes; i recognize marina oswald. mr. jenner. and the baby? mr. pic. no, sir; i couldn't recognize the baby. mr. jenner. below that is a picture purporting to be that of your brother with a pistol on his right hip, and with a firearm, a rifle in his left hand holding up what appear to be some leaflets. do you recognize that as your brother lee? mr. pic. that is how he looked to me in when i seen him, sir. mr. jenner. that is a duplicate of the picture on the cover. you have produced for us a series of letters from your mother to yourself, from your brother lee to yourself, and from your brother robert to yourself which have been marked john pic exhibits nos. through , inclusive. did you assist mr. ely, in the preparation of this list of exhibits? mr. pic. no, sir; i arranged the stacks. he took it from the stacks i arranged previously. mr. jenner. for the purpose of the record, then, john pic exhibit no. is a letter from marguerite oswald to john pic, postmarked may , , and its accompanying envelope as john pic exhibit no. -a. john pic exhibit no. is a letter from your mother to you, postmarked may , , or the envelope is so postmarked. its accompanying envelope being marked john pic exhibit no. -a. john pic exhibit no. , a letter from marguerite oswald to john pic enclosed in envelope, exhibit no. -a, postmarked at fort worth, may , . by the way, exhibit no. -a is postmarked fort worth. all of these exhibits until i indicate otherwise from here on are marked with a return address to m. oswald, ewing, fort worth, tex. mr. pic. . mr. jenner. what did i say? ; that is correct. you are right. exhibit no. is a letter from marguerite oswald to john pic, accompanying envelope is exhibit no. -a postmarked june , . exhibit no. and its reverse side, which is marked exhibit no. -b, is a letter from lee harvey oswald to john pic enclosed in envelope marked john pic exhibit no. -a, postmarked at fort worth, tex., on august , . this envelope has no return address on it. exhibit no. is a letter from marguerite oswald to john pic in an envelope postmarked august , , marked exhibit no. -a. exhibit no. is a letter from marguerite to john pic enclosed in envelope postmarked november , , and identified as john pic exhibit no. -a. the next is john pic exhibit no. , a letter from marguerite oswald to john pic enclosed in envelope postmarked december , , the envelope being marked john pic exhibit no. -a. this does have the return address lee oswald, ewing, fort worth, tex. the next is a short longhand note on a small sheet marked john pic exhibit no. which is undated, lee harvey oswald to john pic, which was enclosed with exhibit no. . the next is a card, christmas card, marked john pic exhibit no. , inside cover of which in longhand says, "dear pic," and then there is in longhand and pencil "i sure am sorry that you can't come home for christmas so i am sending you this fruitcake. merry christmas"--spelled mary--"from lee." the next is john pic no. , a letter from marguerite oswald to john pic enclosed in envelope marked pic exhibit no. -a and postmarked in fort worth, april , , with the usual return address. exhibit no. is a letter from marguerite oswald to john pic enclosed in envelope postmarked at fort worth on april , . that envelope is marked john pic exhibit no. -a. the previous envelope in which exhibit no. was enclosed was marked exhibit no. -a. i will say for the record in each instance where there is a letter accompanied by an envelope, the envelope is marked with a letter "a" but with the same number as the letter. exhibit no. is a letter from marguerite oswald to john pic enclosed in an envelope marked exhibit no. -a, postmarked at fort worth, may , . the next is exhibit no. , a letter from marguerite oswald to john pic enclosed in an envelope marked exhibit no. -a, postmarked at fort worth on june , . exhibit no. is a letter from marguerite oswald to john pic and exhibit no. -b is a birthday card from marguerite. both are enclosed in an envelope marked john pic exhibit no. -a, postmarked at fort worth, tex., june , , bearing the usual return address. exhibit no. is a letter from marguerite oswald to john pic enclosed in an envelope marked pic exhibit no. -a, postmarked fort worth, july , , with the usual return address. the next is a letter without an envelope which is marked john pic exhibit no. . the letter is dated may , . the exhibit no. is a letter from marguerite oswald to john pic enclosed is an envelope, exhibit no. -a, postmarked in new orleans on june , , containing the return address, m. oswald, st. mary, new orleans, la. the next is exhibit no. ; it is a letter from marguerite oswald to john pic enclosed in an envelope postmarked at new orleans, october , , which in turn is marked john pic exhibit no. -a. it contains the return address, m. oswald, exchange, new orleans, la. if i neglected to do so, exhibit no. is the letter from marguerite oswald to john pic. exhibit no. also is a letter from marguerite oswald to john pic enclosed in an envelope marked exhibit no. -a, postmarked at new orleans, la., on november , , containing return address, m. oswald, exchange, new orleans, la. exhibit no. is a letter from marguerite oswald to john pic enclosed in an envelope marked exhibit no. -a, postmarked at new orleans, la., on november , , return address, mrs. m. oswald, exchange, new orleans, la. mr. pic, are exhibits nos. and -a, and -a, and -a, and -a, and -a, and -a--excuse me, strike out that and -a-- and -a, and -a, and -a, and -a, and -a, and -a, and -a, and -a, , and -a, and -a, and -a, and -a, all in the handwriting of your mother marguerite oswald? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and were those envelopes addressed to you at various places you were then, that is as of the time they were postmarked received by you at or about the postmarked dates or shortly thereafter which each envelope bears? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. there is one exhibit that doesn't have an envelope. was that letter received by you shortly after the date it bears? mr. pic. you refer to exhibit no. , sir? mr. jenner. yes, sir. mr. pic. to the best of my knowledge; yes, sir. mr. jenner. these are all, they all consist of correspondence from your mother to you? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and they happen to be correspondence which you have retained over the years? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. except for the exhibit marks on those, they are in the same condition now as they were at the time you received them and opened them in the case of the envelopes? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and that the letters are in the condition they were at the time you read them? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. go back to pic exhibit no. , in whose handwriting is that exhibit? mr. pic. exhibit no. , sir, is in the handwriting of--there is exhibits nos. , -a, and -b. mr. jenner. exhibit no. , i am referring to. mr. pic. they are both in the handwriting of lee harvey oswald. mr. jenner. exhibits nos. and -a; correct? mr. pic. no, sir; exhibits nos. , -a, and -b. exhibit no. is the insert in envelope exhibit no. -a. mr. jenner. then look at exhibits nos. and -a. mr. pic. they are marked exhibits nos. and -a, sir. mr. jenner. all right. the contents are marked exhibit no. . mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. in whose handwriting is the envelope? mr. pic. lee harvey oswald's. mr. jenner. and whose handwriting is that which appears in the inside of that card? mr. pic. my mother's, sir. mr. jenner. is there any handwriting of lee harvey oswald on that card? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. the card was enclosed, was it in the exhibit marked john pic no. -a? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. turn to exhibit no. . that is a note you received from your brother? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. is that in his handwriting? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. it is undated. mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. do you have the envelope in which that was enclosed? mr. pic. sir, it may be exhibit no. -a, i don't know. mr. jenner. it may have been enclosed in exhibit no. -a? mr. pic. it may have been enclosed in exhibit no. -a, i don't know, sir. mr. jenner. in any event, it is in the handwriting of your brother? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and you received it in due course some time? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. on or about the holiday period---- mr. pic. i would guess that exhibit no. goes in envelope exhibit no. -a. mr. jenner. all right. would you put them in there? mr. pic. and the date on envelope exhibit no. -a is december, and this is a christmas card from lee, sir. mr. jenner. that christmas card on the inside is the handwriting of your mother, however? mr. pic. no, sir. lee harvey oswald. mr. jenner. all right. now, the exhibit marked john pic no. , do you have a recollection as to the envelope in which that was enclosed? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. do you have a recollection as to approximately when you received it, that is john pic exhibit no. ? mr. pic. i would speculate and say that exhibit no. goes in envelope exhibit no. -a, and that exhibit no. either came some little period of time before or after the contents in envelope exhibit no. -a. mr. jenner. that is while you were away at military school? mr. pic. no, sir; this is when i am in the coast guard. mr. jenner. all right. all those exhibits i have now identified, that is after i identified your mother's letters, are in the handwriting of lee oswald? mr. pic. all except exhibit no. , sir. mr. jenner. and exhibit no. is in the handwriting of your mother? mr. pic. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. it appears to be and is a christmas card? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. from its contents are you able to tell us approximately when you received that? mr. pic. it would be, i would say sometime after christmas of , sir. mr. jenner. all right. would you put all those exhibits back in order? mr. pic. what belongs with what i think. mr. jenner. yes. mr. pic. exhibits nos. -a and here, sir. mr. jenner. you have already told us of exhibits no. -a belonging with exhibit no. . you have also produced for us correspondence that you happen still to have in your possession from your brother robert oswald, have you not? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. i place that correspondence before you and ask you to follow me as i place the exhibit numbers in the record. exhibit no. is a letter from robert to you. mr. pic. they are marked all with "b's." mr. jenner. exhibit no. -b is a letter from your brother robert to you enclosed in an envelope marked exhibit no. -a, postmarked october , ? mr. pic. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. from where? mr. pic. u.s. navy , sir. unit . mr. jenner. and to you at? mr. pic. at east d street, new york city, sir. mr. jenner. exhibit no. -b is the contents of exhibit no. -a, the contents consisting of a letter from your brother robert to you, the envelope is postmarked june , . mr. pic. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. and it is addressed to you where? mr. pic. u.s. coast guard station, staten island, n.y. mr. jenner. all right. exhibit no. -b is the contents of the envelope marked exhibit no. -a, the contents consisting of a letter from your brother robert to you, and the envelope being postmarked june , . mr. pic. plus a picture. mr. jenner. there is also enclosed in that envelope a picture? mr. pic. that is right, sir. mr. jenner. which is marked---- mr. pic. exhibit no. -c. mr. jenner. exhibit no. -c. the picture is a picture of whom? mr. pic. two what appear to be marines, sir; the one on the left being robert oswald. mr. jenner. may i see it, please, sir? do you know the other marine? mr. pic. no, sir; i do not. mr. jenner. exhibit no. -a is an envelope postmarked december , , its contents being a letter marked exhibit no. -b, being a letter from your brother robert to you. mr. pic. being a christmas card, sir; with a letter written on the christmas card. mr. jenner. on the inside? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and some inscription, also, under the christmas greetings? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. now, are those exhibits all in the handwriting, except for the photograph, of course, in the handwriting of your brother robert? mr. pic. yes, sir; to my best of my knowledge. mr. jenner. did you receive those exhibits, the envelopes, and the contents in due course after they were posted? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and you have retained them in your possession since that time? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. all right. have you also produced for us some additional correspondence between your mother and yourself? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. being exclusively letters from her to you? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. they being in the following series: exhibit no. -a, an envelope addressed to you postmarked june , ---- mr. pic. fort worth, tex. mr. jenner. fort worth, tex. what is the return address? mr. pic. m. oswald, ewing, fort worth, tex. mr. jenner. and the contents consisting of a letter from your mother to you? mr. pic. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. and that is marked exhibit no. -b? mr. pic. yes. mr. jenner. the next envelope and letter, the envelope is marked exhibit no. -a. is it postmarked? mr. pic. partial postmark, sir. mr. jenner. how much of it can you read? mr. pic. texas , sir. mr. jenner. its contents marked? mr. pic. exhibit no. -b, sir. mr. jenner. that is a letter from your mother to you? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. enclosed with the envelope we have identified? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. the next exhibit is what? mr. pic. exhibit no. -a, sir. mr. jenner. postmarked? mr. pic. fort worth, august , . mr. jenner. what return address? mr. pic. m. oswald, ewing, fort worth, tex. mr. jenner. the contents have been marked? mr. pic. exhibit no. -b, sir. mr. jenner. the letter from your mother to you? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. enclosed in that envelope? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. the next exhibit? mr. pic. is just a letter dated exhibit no. . mr. pic. is just a letter marked exhibit no. . mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. is it dated? mr. pic. the only mention is the word saturday, sir. mr. jenner. it is undated? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. it is in the handwriting of your mother? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. you received it in due course? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. some time or other? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. but you did not retain the envelope? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. can you tell from its content approximately when you received it? was it after you entered the coast guard? mr. pic. yes, sir; definitely after i entered the coast guard, in fact it mentions the korean war, so it was after the onset of the korean war. mr. jenner. was it received subsequently to the letter and envelope, the envelope being postmarked august , , being the previous exhibit? mr. pic. i wouldn't know, sir. mr. jenner. all right. the next exhibit. mr. pic. envelope exhibit no. -a, sir, postmarked fort worth, tex.; return address, m. oswald, ewing, fort worth, tex. mr. jenner. what is the postmark date? mr. pic. september , . mr. jenner. contents marked? mr. pic. exhibit no. -b, sir. mr. jenner. being a letter from your mother to you? mr. pic. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. the next exhibit? mr. pic. exhibit no. -a bearing the postmark september , return address, m. oswald, ewing street, fort worth, tex. mr. jenner. and postmarked at fort worth? mr. pic. yes, sir; postmarked at fort worth. mr. jenner. its contents marked--what is the exhibit number on the contents? mr. pic. exhibit no. -b, sir. mr. jenner. then the next exhibit? mr. pic. the next exhibit no. -a, postmarked fort worth, tex., december , , no return address. mr. jenner. the contents? mr. pic. christmas card marked exhibit no. -b with a short note. mr. jenner. in the handwriting of your mother? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. all right. next exhibit? mr. pic. envelope exhibit no. -a, postmarked fort worth, tex., january , , return address, m. oswald, ewing, fort worth, tex. contents of envelope marked exhibit no. -b containing a letter from my mother to myself. mr. jenner. all right. next exhibit? mr. pic. envelope exhibit no. -a postmarked fort worth tex., april , . the only thing made out on the return address is "m.o. fort worth, texas." mr. jenner. contents? mr. pic. contents exhibit no. -b, a letter from my mother to myself, sir. mr. jenner. next exhibit? mr. pic. envelope marked exhibit no. -a, postmarked fort worth, tex., may , , return address, m. oswald, ewing, contents exhibit no. -b letter from my mother to myself, sir. mr. jenner. the next exhibit? mr. pic. envelope marked exhibit no. -a postmarked fort worth, tex., may , return address , mrs. m. oswald, ewing, fort worth, tex., contents letter marked exhibit no. -b, a letter from my mother to myself, sir. mr. jenner. next exhibit? mr. pic. a letter, envelope marked exhibit no. -a postmarked fort worth, tex., june , , return address m. oswald ewing, fort worth, tex., contents marked exhibit no. -b, letter from my mother to myself, sir. mr. jenner. next exhibit? mr. pic. envelope marked exhibit no. -a, postmarked fort worth, tex., june , , return address m. oswald ewing, fort worth, tex., contents marked exhibit no. -b, a letter from my mother to myself, sir. mr. jenner. next exhibit? mr. pic. envelope marked exhibit no. -a postmarked fort worth, tex., july , , return address m. oswald, ewing, fort worth, tex., contents marked exhibit no. -b, a letter from my mother to myself, sir. mr. jenner. next exhibit? mr. pic. an envelope marked exhibit no. -a, postmarked fort worth, tex., february , , return address m. oswald ewing, fort worth, tex. contents exhibit no. -b, a letter from my mother to myself, sir. mr. jenner. next exhibit? mr. pic. envelope marked exhibit no. -a, postmarked fort worth, tex., may , , m. oswald, ewing, fort worth, tex., contents marked exhibit no. -b, letter from my mother to myself. mr. jenner. the last of the series? mr. pic. an envelope marked exhibit no. -a, postmarked fort worth, tex., dated th of march , return address m. oswald ewing, fort worth, tex. contents marked exhibit no. -a also. the letter from my mother to myself. mr. jenner. ok, that is a mistake then. we will change that marking to exhibit no. -b, which i am now doing. the letters that have been identified with exhibit no. -a and concluding with exhibit no. -b, are all in the handwriting of your mother, are they not? mr. pic. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. and it is correspondence which you received in due course on or about the dates or shortly after the dates that the various envelopes were postmarked? mr. pic. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. and you have retained them in your possession in the entire time? mr. pic. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. there is an exhibit still before you marked john pic exhibit no.---- mr. pic. exhibit no. . mr. jenner. what is that? mr. pic. this appears to be a "shot" record of lee harvey oswald written in an unknown hand, which gives him a smallpox date of august , . mr. jenner. how did that come into your possession? mr. pic. it was just laying in the box with all this other stuff, sir. mr. jenner. i offer those exhibits now commencing with exhibit no. -a to and including exhibits nos. -b, plus , in evidence. (the documents referred to were marked john pic exhibits nos. -a to -b, inclusive, and exhibit no. for identification and received in evidence.) mr. jenner. mr. pic, we have made copies of all those exhibits and we appreciate your bringing the originals, and you may take the originals back with you to san antonio. those exhibits consisting of the photographs of your brother which you brought, we will have duplicated and returned to you in due course. mr. pic. all right. mr. jenner. direct your attention, if you will, to exhibit no. -a, an envelope and its contents, exhibit no. , this being a letter from fort worth, june , , to you at brooklyn, n.y. there is an inside page reading, "mother called in on and told some of my problems." do you find that? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. uncle dutz wired $ . that is your uncle charles murret? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and then it reads, "and lee was invited to spend a couple of weeks, so i sent him on the train by himself. to what is your mother referring in connection with her problems and the wiring of the $ by your uncle? mr. pic. it appears to me, sir, that at this time period she was between jobs. further down she states she is starting on a new job monday. mr. jenner. does she refer to that job on the page that is numbered , i believe, as mcdonald kitchens is the name? mr. pic. she first refers to it on the one where it begins, "mother called in on". mr. jenner. now, the mother there mentioned is your mother, isn't it? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. then there is a page numbered ? mr. pic. that is right, sir. mr. jenner. which referred to mcdonald's kitchens as the name and what they do is cook food for commercial use? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. "i will drive a station wagon and deliver the food, also." mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. is that a job she was about to obtain? mr. pic. i can only assume from the letter, sir; i have no other knowledge of that. mr. jenner. she makes a reference on that page "haven't sold the house as yet but have a good prospect." calling your attention to the date, june , , what house was that? mr. pic. i am sure this refers to the little house in benbrook, sir. mr. jenner. it refers to people called delogans. who are they? mr. pic. i assume these people were renting the house from her, i don't remember them. mr. jenner. that was a duplex of some kind? mr. pic. no, sir; that was this little l-shaped house. mr. jenner. in all this correspondence, sergeant, by and large your mother very frequently, if not all the time, refers to her straitened circumstances, need for funds, and references to you having sent money. in your testimony you have referred to conversations with her on the subject and she raised the subject to you. was that something that was pretty constantly in her mind all the time? mr. pic. yes, sir; it was. mr. jenner. did she talk about that subject at times when you were of the opinion that she was not as straitened as she appears to report in these letters? mr. pic. will you repeat that, please, sir? mr. jenner. would you read it, please, mr. reporter. (the question, as recorded, was read by the reporter.) mr. pic. i am sorry, sir; i don't understand your question. mr. jenner. were you of the opinion from time to time that on these occasions when she talked about what appears to be that she was in extremis with respect to finances when in fact she was not, she was overstating this condition or status? mr. pic. yes; i believe she overstated it most of the time. mr. jenner. because there were purchases of houses, at least on the installment plan, and she seemed to have capital to do that, did she not? mr. pic. yes, sir; she could always buy and sell a house some way or other. mr. jenner. what was your impression as to why she was doing this; to impress you boys or was that just her fixation or personality trait? mr. pic. it is my impression that she did it in order to make a profit on every deal she got involved with. mr. jenner. i am not thinking of a house sale as such. but that question was more directed to her talking about her financial circumstances. was she attempting to impress you boys that she was working herself to the bone to support you and you should be more grateful than you appeared to be, and that sort of thing? mr. pic. that is practically verbatim, sir. mr. jenner. please; you say that is practically verbatim, you mean you have uttered what was in her mind? mr. pic. no; just about what she says. she said at those times. mr. jenner. were you under the impression that she was overstating in that respect? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. was that likewise the feeling of your brother robert? mr. pic. yes, i am sure it was. mr. jenner. what was your impression as to whether your mother was always sincere and straightforward with respect to that subject matter? mr. pic. my opinion, sir; at the time was all she cared about was getting hold of and making some money in some form or another. this is her god, so to speak, was to get money. and to get as much out of me as she could and as much out of robert as she could. mr. jenner. and as much out of anybody else as she could? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. was there any--you talk about the difficulties with mr. ekdahl. do you recall any discussions between them with respect to any dissatisfaction on your mother's part with funds that were given her by mr. ekdahl? mr. pic. yes, sir; she always wanted more money out of him. that was the basis of all the arguments. mr. jenner. and was she complaining to him that he didn't give her enough money? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. was your mother an extravagant person money-wise? mr. pic. i don't know what she did with the money, sir. she bought very little as far as clothes and things. we didn't eat steak every day. we didn't eat that good. in fact, when i joined the service in , i was pounds, and my weight prior to that was usually about , . i think within a month or two after i joined the service i was up to and none of my uniforms fit me. i was--there is a picture of me in the pasqual high school thing, and i am very thin. people couldn't recognize me from that picture. i lost a lot of weight working, and not eating too good. i would come home and have to fix my own meals. mr. jenner. was your mother attentive in that respect? did she go out of her way to have meals ready for you boys when you returned to home either after work or after school or otherwise? mr. pic. if there was a majority eating there was usually something set aside for the lesser, which was kept warm in the oven. mr. jenner. you mean the member of the family who was absent at mealtime she would save something for him? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. did you get the feeling, you and your brother, in due course, that your mother's references to these financial needs at times, at least when, to use the vernacular, she was crying wolf? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. these continued references by her to her financial needs, did you think that had an effect on lee as well as on yourself and your brother? mr. pic. it didn't affect me that much. i ignored most of them. if i had money i sent it. if i didn't, that was it. lee was brought up in this atmosphere of constant money problems, and i am sure it had quite an effect on him, and also robert. mr. jenner. in her letter enclosed in the envelope postmarked june , ---- mr. pic. what number is that, sir? mr. jenner. that is exhibits nos. and -a--she makes reference that robert has been saving his money since january to buy a car and "gives me $ a week and never spends a cent unless absolutely necessary (is he tight) but he has saved $ since the first of the year and is hiding"---- mr. pic. hitting. mr. jenner. "for $ " and so on. mr. pic. before buying a car. mr. jenner. "won't loan me a penny, pays his room and board regularly. he gets weeks vacation with pay, i believe, will start in july." do you remember your mother attempting to borrow money from you? mr. pic. when i went home on leave in with a hundred or so dollars, like i mentioned before, she wanted to hold it, just about the whole amount except for about $ from me, so nothing would happen to it, and i might get robbed or something, she felt. whenever she could she attempted to get a buck out of any of us. mr. jenner. did you get any of that money back? mr. pic. i got it all back and subsequently when i left i gave her, i think $ or so. mr. jenner. in that same letter she refers to, she said, "i only made $ last month and am just starting to get leads. i am back with the same company." to what company is she referring in that letter which is postmarked june , ? mr. pic. i don't know, sir. it sounds to me like it would be an insurance company. mr. jenner. do you recall your mother selling insurance? mr. pic. yes; i knew approximately at this time period she sold insurance. mr. jenner. there is a reference to lee taking tap dancing lessons, also, in that letter, that he is a good dancer, "with his voice it would be a good thing to start dancing lessons and when he is a little older take voice." mr. pic. i think this statement here about this practically like several other statements which are either direct or indirect were an attempt to get me to donate some money to this cause or something else. of course this, to me, is a come-on for maybe next time i write i will say, "hurrah, hurrah, lee is going to take tap dancing lessons" and then she will write and say she can't afford it and to send a little money to help him. she did these things. in fact, in some of her letters she refers to it is my fault they are in trouble because i stated i would help pay for the car and since i was in the service i wasn't holding up my end of the bargain. mr. jenner. what about that incident? mr. pic. sir, that is in the second group of letters. mr. jenner. what about this particular incident you mentioned? what are the facts about that? mr. pic. just what it states here. this is all i know, sir. what it states in this letter. mr. jenner. about the dancing and voice? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. did you ever hear of lee, other than this letter of lee taking dancing lessons? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. did you ever hear otherwise of his taking dancing lessons than in this letter? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. did either you or robert ever take dancing lessons or voice lessons? mr. pic. i think when we were very small and mr. oswald was still alive we did, sir. mr. jenner. now, the other thing to which i referred, as you made reference to something about making payments on a car. what was that about? mr. pic. that would be in that second group, sir. in the second group is really the financial statements. every one of them contained something pertaining to her finances. mr. jenner. the early enlistments of yourself and robert and lee--do you think that had anything to do with your mother's persistent references, allusions to finances? mr. pic. i did not enlist as fast as the other boys. i waited a year after i was of age. i am sure that prior to my enlistment, as a matter of fact, i knew she mentioned when i do get in i should make out an allotment to her and so forth. mr. jenner. do you think there was an incentive on the part of lee and robert to enlist as soon as possible to get away from your mother? mr. pic. yes, sir; i do. mr. jenner. did you and your brother robert have discussions on this subject? mr. pic. no, sir; we never discussed these things. it was just a feeling it was always around. we knew these things without discussing them. mr. jenner. did you live in an atmosphere in which your mother directly or indirectly indicated to you that she thought she had been unfairly dealt with in her life? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. you had that very definite impression? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. you had---- mr. pic. i did not have this impression. she related this to me, sir. i didn't feel she had it any tougher than a lot of people walking around. mr. jenner. that is what i am getting at, this was an impression she was seeking to create. mr. pic. that is right, sir. mr. jenner. you felt she did not have it any tougher. she was creating an impression that did not square with the facts? mr. pic. yes, sir. every time she met anyone she would remind them she was a widow with three children. mr. jenner. do you have an opinion also as to whether this atmosphere in which lee lived had an effect upon him and his personality? mr. pic. i am sure it did, sir. also, lee slept with my mother until i joined the service in . this would make him approximately , well, almost years old. mr. jenner. when you say slept with, you mean in the same bed? mr. pic. in the same bed, sir. mr. jenner. as far as you know or say when lee came and stayed with you a short while in did he likewise sleep with your mother? mr. pic. no, sir; he did not. mr. jenner. he had reached a measure of independence by that time? mr. pic. well, sir; when i left and went into the service there was a vacant bed in the house. mr. jenner. and at that time was that literally the first time that lee had separate quarters for himself other than the period of time that mr. ekdahl lived with you and the period of time when your stepfather lee oswald was alive? mr. pic. lee wasn't born when lee oswald was alive, sir. mr. jenner. that is right. well, then, except for the time mr. ekdahl lived with you? mr. pic. that is true, sir. that would make him about - / years old. mr. jenner. up to the time he was - / years old, why he roomed and slept with his mother in the same bed? mr. pic. i would like to interject here. mr. jenner. yes, i am seeking something of the personality of your mother and the effect on you, had an effect on robert, and probably a more material effect on lee, is that correct? mr. pic. yes; i am sure it did. when i reached , i was eligible for the service, but i was really in no hurry, i wanted to finish my high school education, and when i decided to join the coast guard--at that time to join the coast guard you needed your parent's consent up until the age of . i asked her for it and she hesitated and i told her if she didn't give it to me i would join another branch where i didn't need it and then i got it. i am sure that neither robert nor lee needed their mother's consent to join the marine corps at the age of . i know for the coast guard we did, sir, the coast guard was not a part of the department of defense at that time. mr. jenner. directing your attention to exhibits nos. and -a, the second page of that letter, exhibit no. , reads, "robert left friday morning for san diego. he joined the marines and signed for years. i am glad he decided to enlist. he realized his mistake about getting married, and"--would you read the rest of it? mr. pic. "and probably having to go just the same." mr. jenner. "and then probably having to go just the same." is that the incident in which your mother opposed your brother robert's marriage to the little crippled girl? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. turn to exhibit no. . there is a reference there to a lady, ethel somebody at holmes. would you read that? mr. pic. "ethel nunncy at holmes asks about you." mr. jenner. and that is--holmes is a department store? mr. pic. in new orleans. mr. jenner. who was ethel nunncy? mr. pic. she was a friend of my mother's, sir, that i had known of since i was a small--i was a baby. mr. jenner. sir, this exchange alley--did they have to live under these conditions? mr. pic. all i know is that they lived there. she thought they did. mr. jenner. exhibit no. -b which is a letter from your mother to you postmarked at fort worth, june , , reading "dear john, your sense of responsibility seems nil" or null. mr. pic. nil, null. mr. jenner. n-u-l-l. "remember it was you insisted i buy the car as you planned to work at consolidated. well i have been in a jam financially ever since you left." what is the next word? mr. pic. "kept waiting and robbing peter to pay paul." mr. jenner. "until you were"---- mr. pic. kept waiting and robbing peter to pay paul until you were finished with your boot training as your letters indicated you would send a hundred fifty dollars and about fifty dollars a month." mr. jenner. had you so indicated? mr. pic. i don't believe so, sir. i don't see how, i wasn't making but $ per month. mr. jenner. what truth was there in her statement that it was you who insisted that she buy the car? mr. pic. well, that old jalopy i have a picture of was falling apart and before i went in the service she had a ride home from work and the generator wouldn't generate, and the battery wouldn't battery and it just kept cutting out, so we needed a new car. mr. jenner. was that particular car about which you have just described--about which you were having trouble--was that the family car or a car owned by you? mr. pic. a family car, i never owned a car, sir, when i lived at home. mr. jenner. i take it you had urged her to buy a new car to replace that one? mr. pic. we all wanted a new car, sir, because the other one wouldn't run. she had to get it pushed every morning to get to work. she would have us out in the street waving down people to help her get the car pushed. further on, sir, "i wrote you and told you about a girl loaning me $ on my ring. i lost the ring and wasn't able to pay it." sir, i wouldn't believe that. i am sure at that time i didn't. and the way she goes on the next page, "cox found out about me borrowing" and let her go. i don't believe this. mr. jenner. the next letter, exhibit no. -b, and in an envelope marked in , it says "dear john, well, i have the house in benbrook up for sale." could you read the name? mr. pic. it appears to me to be j. piner powell real estate is handling it. do you want me to read on? mr. jenner. yes. mr. pic. "the problem is to find someone with enough cash as a loan company won't make a new loan and i have about $ , in it. nothing but bad news. up to date i am still not working." read on, sir? mr. jenner. that is about enough. did your mother write you a letter that had good news in it? mr. pic. i never recall one, sir. mr. jenner. around your home was the atmosphere that, "we are poor but we will get along?" as your mother sought to lead you boys to accommodate yourselves to the circumstances that everything would turn out all right eventually? mr. pic. none of us really paid much attention to this, sir. i didn't, and i am sure robert didn't. i don't think lee did because robert and i would probably talk and we didn't pay much attention to it. mr. jenner. you heard it so often you just became inured to it, hardened to it; is that it? mr. pic. well, we didn't believe it after the problems she put on. just like when my wife and i got married she sent a package containing revere ware which i haven't received yet and she swears up and down she sent it, and she has never gotten it in the return mail either. and i know she never sent anything. when we would be home alone, before she would return from work, we have a rather friendly atmosphere, but as soon as she came home we all got into that depression rut again. mr. jenner. was your---- mr. pic. this is prior to my going in the service, sir. mr. jenner. there were times that the atmosphere around your home was depressing? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and was that due largely to your mother? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. the things she said and the attitudes she assumed? mr. pic. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. and while you and your brother got along well you boys were not getting along well with your mother in that sense? mr. pic. robert and i and lee, we had our fights among us, like all brothers do. but we could handle ourselves and our own problems, but the atmosphere just changed when she was around. mr. jenner. did your mother ever say anything about whether people liked her or disliked her? mr. pic. she didn't have to. she didn't have many friends and usually the new friends she made she didn't keep very long. mr. jenner. that was her history? mr. pic. i remember every time we moved she always had fights with the neighbors or something or another. mr. jenner. was she a person who was resentful of the status of others? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and you boys were aware of that, were you? mr. pic. i was aware of it. she always--i remember once when we lived on eighth avenue, i believe was the place, the people named mclean living next to us, of course he was an attorney and everything, and they had some money, and my mother---- mr. jenner. what town was this? mr. pic. this was fort worth, sir. my mother remarked to me once that mrs. mclean had said she went and played the slot machines and lost $ in it, and she raved and ranted about this for half an hour or an hour about how this woman could go and waste $ and what she could do with it and everything. she resented the fact this woman lost her own money. mr. jenner. i haven't found a single letter yet, sergeant, in which your mother fails to mention the subject of money. mr. pic. you may find a christmas card, "love, mother," sir. mr. jenner. a letter? mr. pic. no, sir; i don't think you will. these are only part of them. i threw out a whole bunch a couple of years ago. they were all basically the same. mr. jenner. was your mother loving and affectionate toward you boys? mr. pic. i would say for myself, sir, i wasn't to her. mr. jenner. what is that? mr. pic. i was not toward her. mr. jenner. why? mr. pic. i had no motherly love feeling toward her. like i say, i think i first became resentful to her when she informed me i would not return to the military school and from then my hostilities toward her grew. mr. jenner. well, up to that point, what had been your feeling toward your mother? mr. pic. we had never been in a very affectionate family, sir. mr. jenner. that is affectionate with respect to the boys toward your mother? mr. pic. that is right, sir; kissing her, and things like this. it is my own opinion that she is out right now to make as much money as she can on her relationship with lee harvey oswald. that is the only thing--i don't really believe she really believes he is innocent. i think she is out to make money than if she has to say he is guilty. i think she is a phony in the whole deal. also, i think you will find with myself, robert and lee, also, that we didn't have these or don't have these feelings towards money that she does. i mean i live on my base pay and i have for years, and robert makes the best what he can, and whenever we get together, we never discuss money. the only time i seen lee as an adult he didn't discuss it, not to the extent that we were used to, we never felt this way. mr. jenner. it is your information, is it, that your mother's first marriage was to your father? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. her second, then, to robert lee edward oswald? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and her third to e. a. ekdahl? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. so far as you know she has not been married otherwise than those three occasions? mr. pic. no, sir; has she? mr. jenner. we don't know, if she has we don't know anything about it. did your brother lee on the occasion on thanksgiving day say anything about whether he had had a hard time in russia? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. that is a hard time in the sense of earning a living? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. or some other sense? mr. pic. yes, sir; earning a living. mr. jenner. what do you recall he said in that connection? mr. pic. that he made about $ a month, and it wasn't the money so much. it was the products were not available to him and also his wife to get even with the money, and they consistently ate cabbage and he was tired of cabbage, and he struck me he was not complaining about the money but the availability of food. mr. jenner. is it your impression that he had become disenchanted with russia? mr. pic. yes; i got this impression. mr. jenner. did you ever hear him say anything while you were boys in which he expressed dissatisfaction with the united states or its government? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. he made no comment on that subject when you saw him on thanksgiving day ? mr. pic. i think his only bitter feelings that i recollect was his dishonorable discharge from the marine corps. this was the only bitter feelings he reported to me in anyway. mr. jenner. i would like to have you tell us what he said as--did he return to that subject repeatedly? what leads you now to conclude or state by way of conclusion that he was bitter about that? mr. pic. i think the idea of driving came up, the talk about automobiles. i also think that he made the statement---- mr. jenner. when you say that is your present recollection? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. all right. mr. pic. i also think that he made the statement that he---- mr. jenner. here, again, you mean to the best of your recollection? mr. pic. yes, sir; to the best of my knowledge, that he made the statement he wasn't driving because of this dishonorable discharge he received. he was unable to obtain a driver's license. then he told me he was attempting to get this changed, and he had written several letters to the secretary of the navy about getting it changed. mr. jenner. did he mention the then governor connally in that connection? mr. pic. i believe he did, sir. mr. jenner. governor connally was not then secretary of the navy. did he express any resentment toward governor connally? mr. pic. i think when he explained it to me---- mr. jenner. please, you have said again "i think." mr. pic. to the best of my recollection, sir, when he mentioned to me that he had written to get it changed, governor connally was the secretary of the navy. he did mention the name connally. mr. jenner. did you have any feeling or get the impression that he was bitter toward governor connally as a person? he was not, then, of course---- mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. secretary of the navy. mr. pic. no, sir; just the fact that the man had the job and he was the man he had written it to. mr. jenner. was anything said about fair play for cuba committee on this occasion? mr. pic. there was no discussion about cuba. i think this was right after the cuban crisis, and i think we may have talked about the mobilization a little bit. mr. jenner. did he express any views on that subject? mr. pic. no, sir; he didn't. mr. jenner. was president kennedy discussed at anytime? mr. pic. i don't recollect, sir. he struck me on that meeting as really only having two purposes: one, to straighten out the dishonorable discharge and the other one to pay back the government the money it had lent him to come back to the united states. mr. jenner. you were interested--charlie murret was a dentist and a graduate of louisiana state university. joyce murret married an athletic coach and lives in beaumont, tex.? mr. pic. right. mr. jenner. gene murret you have mentioned. he is a seminarian at mobile, ala. boogie murret works for squibb & co. he is a graduate of loyola of new orleans. mr. pic. someone mentioned, i don't know if it was vada or my brother, robert---- mr. jenner. on this thanksgiving day occasion? mr. pic. yes; after they had left, that marina's uncle, brother, some relation, was an officer in the russian army. she had stated she had a relative in the soviet armed forces. mr. jenner. it was your impression that either vada had or robert had? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. some of the witnesses have testified that lee was quick to anger as a boy. do you remember anything about that? what is your impression about that? mr. pic. i don't remember, sir. mr. jenner. was he a considerate young man? mr. pic. i think towards robert and myself he was, sir. towards other people, no. mr. jenner. was his attitude towards other people different from that which he had toward you and robert? mr. pic. yes; i believe so. mr. jenner. in what respect--what did you notice about him in that regard? mr. pic. he would rather play with us than play with other children, and he always wanted to go with us wherever we went. whenever we had a birthday or christmas he would never forget us. i think he was very considerate towards robert and myself. mr. jenner. from time to time we have been off the record and had some discussions in discussing documents and other things. do you recall anything we discussed off the record that you think is pertinent here that i have failed to place on the record? mr. pic. i don't remember what has been off the record, sir. mr. jenner. i will put it this way then: is there anything you would like to add at the moment now that i am about to finish questioning you that you think you would like to have on the record? mr. pic. if you are interested in my opinions---- mr. jenner. yes, sir; anything that you want to add. mr. pic. i think, i believe that lee oswald did the crime that he is accused of. i think that anything he may have done was aided with a little extra push from his mother in the living conditions that she presented to him. i also think that his reason for leaving the marine corps is not true and accurate. i mean i don't think he cared to get out of the marine corps to help his mother. he probably used this as an excuse to get out and go to his defection. i know myself i wouldn't have gotten out of the service because of her, and i am sure robert wouldn't either, and this makes me believe that lee wouldn't have. mr. jenner. what kind of a student was your brother, do you know, do you recall, rather? mr. pic. i think in elementary school he was fairly good, sir. mr. jenner. but then in the later grades, th, th, th, th, and th? mr. pic. i have no idea, sir. mr. jenner. well, that is about all. i sure appreciate your coming, and the commission likewise, at some inconvenience to yourself. you will be able to catch that : plane in the morning and get yourself back to your son's birthday party. mr. pic. i hope what i have told you has been something new and not repetitious. mr. jenner. much of what you have told us has been new. much of what you have told us has been very helpful to us in the way of corroborating matters about which we were not fully informed or in doubt, and opinions have been expressed particularly with respect to your brother have been helpful. that leads me to ask you this further question: give me your overall impression of your brother lee oswald as a personality, as he developed. mr. pic. sir; i remember lee oswald as a child, up until about the age of or . to me, he appeared a normal healthy robust boy who would get in fights and still have his serious moments. mr. jenner. you got in fights, too, didn't you? mr. pic. sure. mr. jenner. and your brother robert? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. these are not fights that you would regard as other than boys getting into? mr. pic. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. that is, it wasn't because he was unduly belligerent? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. all right. go ahead. mr. pic. he got in his usual trouble around the neighborhood as far as getting in people's yards, probably, and letting the dog go astray, normal healthy boy. i think as he became older, prior to me entering the service, he became slightly cocky and belligerent toward his mother. he never showed any of this toward robert or myself. i am afraid it probably rubbed off of robert and myself and it affected lee, because we didn't really take much stock into what she was saying. i don't think we were as cocky, as belligerent as he was. there was---- mr. jenner. do you think that was a defensive mechanism, on his part? mr. pic. yes, sir; i think so. mr. jenner. did your mother ever say anything around your home about that employers were overreaching her, and employers overreached poor working people or anything along those lines? mr. pic. no; she always reminded us she worked like a slave to provide for us three boys. she couldn't wait for a day we would grow up and support her. when lee visited us in new york he came there a friendly, nice easy-to-like kid. mr. jenner. this is in the summer? mr. pic. yes, sir; he had the interest of boys at that age, the museum of natural history, sightseeing excursions and so forth. until the incident where i talked to him we never had a bad word between us other than maybe joking or playing around. i tried to interest him in a hobby of building boats or collecting stamps again while he was---- mr. jenner. had he been interested in those two hobbies? mr. pic. yes; he and i, all three of us collected stamps. i played chess with lee quite a bit and robert, too. we all did this. played monopoly together, the three of us. when i approached him on this knife-pulling incident he became very hostile towards me. and he was never the same again with me. mr. jenner. that was the first time he had ever been hostile in that sense towards you? mr. pic. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and that rupture was never repaired thereafter? mr. pic. no, sir. mr. jenner. did you have the impression when you saw him on thanksgiving of that in the meantime he had become embittered, resentful of his station? mr. pic. well, sir; the lee harvey oswald i met in november of was not the lee harvey oswald i had known years previous. this person struck me as someone with a chip on his shoulder, who had these purposes i mentioned, to do something about. mr. jenner. what purposes? mr. pic. to repay the government and get his discharge changed. it appeared to me that he was a good father towards his child, and not knowing the conversation between he and his wife i couldn't form much of an opinion there. mr. jenner. all right, sir; that is about it. mr. pic. ok, sir; thank you very much. mr. jenner. this transcript will be prepared by the reporters and it will be sent to your commanding officer, and would you please get it immediately and read it and sign it. if you make any corrections in it, put your initials beside the correction, or over, above, your initial somewhere around the correction so we know it is you who did it, and return it to us as promptly as possible. it may be that the secret service will bring it out, but it will be delivered to you next week. all right. affidavit of edward john pic, jr. the following affidavit was executed by edward john pic, jr., on june , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy state of louisiana, _parish of orleans, ss_: edward john pic, jr., jay street, new orleans, la., being duly sworn says: . i am the same edward john pic, jr., who was deposed by albert e. jenner, jr., member of the legal staff of the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy, on april , . when marguerite claverie pic and i separated after we had lived together a year, we resided in a house on genois street, south of canal street, in new orleans. this was a rented house. the rent was either $ or $ per month. at no time prior to our separation did marguerite work. during all of that period she was a housewife. . i neither refused nor failed to support her either during or after our marriage. there were personality and incompatibility difficulties between us commencing at an early stage of our marriage. we just couldn't get along, things kept getting worse and worse. marguerite was aware of my earning capacity at the time we married. there were difficulties between us respecting money and household financial management, but this was only one of the sources of the difficulties. my financial situation did not worsen after our marriage. . marguerite's pregnancy with my son john edward pic was not the cause of our separation. i had no objection to children. it was a coincidence that about that time we had reached the point that we could not make a go with each other any more. our separation which was amicable and which was arranged through an attorney would have taken place irrespective of marguerite's pregnancy with my son john edward pic. . as i testified in my deposition, marguerite was a nice girl. i haven't anything whatsoever adverse to say against her, it is just that we couldn't get along. our dispositions would not jell. i do not mean to imply that the fault, if any, lay with either of us. we just didn't get along. . my distinct recollection is that i had no difficulty maintaining the household and supporting my family though there was some difference between marguerite and me as to the manner, style and the level on which our household should be maintained. signed the th day of june . (s) edward john pic, jr., edward john pic, jr. testimony of kerry wendell thornley the testimony of kerry wendell thornley was taken at : a.m., on may , , at maryland avenue ne., washington, d.c., by messrs. john ely and albert e. jenner, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. jenner. mr. thornley, in the deposition you are about to give, do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? mr. thornley. i do. mr. jenner. you are kerry wendell thornley, spelled k-e-r-r-y w-e-n-d-e-l-l t-h-o-r-n-l-e-y? mr. thornley. that is correct, sir. mr. jenner. mr. thornley, where do you reside now? mr. thornley. at south st street in arlington, va. mr. jenner. did you at one time reside at dauphine street in new orleans? mr. thornley. yes, sir. mr. jenner. what is your present occupation? mr. thornley. i am a doorman at the building where i reside, shirlington house. mr. jenner. doorman. mr. thornley. at the building where i reside. mr. jenner. what is the name of that building? mr. thornley. shirlington house. i also work on the switchboard there three nights a week. mr. jenner. i see. by the way, mr. thornley, you received, did you not, a letter from mr. rankin, the general counsel of the commission in which he enclosed---- mr. thornley. confirming this appointment---- mr. jenner. copies of the legislation, senate joint resolution no. , authorizing the creation of the commission and president johnson's order , bringing the commission into existence and fixing its powers and duties and responsibilities? mr. thornley. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and also a copy of the rules and regulations of the commission for the taking of depositions? mr. thornley. yes, sir. mr. jenner. i take it you understand the basic obligation placed upon the commission is to investigate the facts and circumstances surrounding and bearing upon the assassination of president kennedy, and events collateral thereto. in the course of doing that the commission and its staff, and i, albert e. jenner, jr., a member of the commission legal staff, have been interviewing and taking the testimony of various persons who, among other things, came in contact with a man named lee harvey oswald. we understand that you had some contact with him, fortuitous or otherwise as it might be. are we correct in that? mr. thornley. yes, sir. mr. jenner. would you tell us the--may i ask you this first. were you born and reared in this country? mr. thornley. yes, sir. mr. jenner. are you married or unmarried? mr. thornley. unmarried. mr. jenner. unmarried you said? mr. thornley. yes, sir. mr. jenner. what is your age? mr. thornley. i am . mr. jenner. when was your birthday? mr. thornley. april , this last month. mr. jenner. april of this last month? i am poor in mathematics, what year was your birth? mr. thornley. . mr. jenner. when did you first become acquainted with him? mr. thornley. i was--it was around easter of , either shortly before or shortly after. mr. jenner. let's see. he was in the marines at that time? mr. thornley. yes, sir. mr. jenner. i take it you also were? mr. thornley. yes, sir. mr. jenner. how long had you been in the marines? mr. thornley. at that time i had been in the marines over half a year. i had been in the reserve for many years. i had been on active duty for over half a year. mr. jenner. you were then years of age? mr. thornley. about; yes, sir. mr. jenner. tell me about what your occupation and activity had been up to the time you enlisted in the marines. mr. thornley. well, the year before i was a student at the university of southern california, and before that i was a student at california high school in whittier, calif. mr. jenner. i take it then that you are a native californian? mr. thornley. yes, sir. mr. jenner. did you receive your degree? mr. thornley. no. i was--i completed my freshman year and then i went on active duty to serve my -year obligation in the marine reserve. mr. jenner. you did not return to college after you were mustered out of the marines? mr. thornley. no, sir. mr. jenner. was your discharge honorable? mr. thornley. yes, sir. mr. jenner. where were you based when you first met lee harvey oswald? mr. thornley. at a subsidiary of el toro marine base, referred to as lta, santa ana, calif., or just outside of santa ana. mr. jenner. what was your rank at that time? mr. thornley. at that time i was acting corporal. mr. jenner. what was your assignment then? mr. thornley. i was an aviation electronics operator. i was working in an aircraft control center reading radarscopes and keeping track of ingoing and outgoing flights. mr. jenner. what was lee harvey oswald's assignment and activity service-wise at that period? mr. thornley. at that time his assignments and activities were primary janitorial. he was--he had lost his clearance previously, and if i remember, he was assigned to make the coffee, mow the lawn, swab down decks, and things of this nature. mr. jenner. what were the circumstances as you learned of them, or knew of them at the time, as to how or why he lost his clearance as you put it. mr. thornley. well, i asked somebody, and i was told, and i don't remember who told me, it was a general rumor, general scuttlebutt at the time, that he had poured beer over a staff nco's head in an enlisted club in japan, and had been put in the brig for that, and having been put in the brig would automatically lose his clearance to work in the electronics control center. mr. jenner. i was going to ask you what losing clearance meant. you have indicated that--or would you state it more specifically. mr. thornley. well, that meant in a practical sense, that meant that he was not permitted to enter certain areas wherein the equipment, in this case equipment, was kept; that we would not want other unauthorized persons to have knowledge of. and on occasion information, i imagine, would also come to the man who was cleared, in the process of his work, that he would be expected to keep to himself. mr. jenner. i assume you had clearance? mr. thornley. yes, sir; i was, i think, cleared for confidential at the time. mr. jenner. cleared for confidential. i was about to ask you what level of clearance was involved. mr. thornley. i believe it was just confidential to work there at el toro on that particular equipment. mr. jenner. that is the clearance about which you speak when you talk about oswald having lost it? mr. thornley. oswald, i believe, had a higher clearance. this is also just based upon rumor. i believe he at one time worked in the security files, it is the s & c files, somewhere either at lta or at el toro. mr. jenner. did you ever work in the security files? mr. thornley. no, sir. mr. jenner. and that was a level of clearance---- mr. thornley. probably a secret clearance would be required. mr. jenner. it was at least higher than the clearance about which you first spoke? mr. thornley. yes, sir. mr. jenner. the clearance that you had in mind of which you first spoke was the clearance to operate radar detection devices? mr. thornley. right. mr. jenner. and your knowledge of his loss of clearance was by hearsay or rumor. as i understand it the circumstances took place off base one day? mr. thornley. no; this was on base as i understand it. it was in an enlisted club or staff sergeant's club, something of that nature. mr. jenner. he had gotten into difficulty with a staff sergeant and had poured beer on the person of a staff sergeant and gotten into some kind of an altercation? mr. thornley. yes, sir. mr. jenner. as a result of that he was court-martialed and had been subjected to the loss of clearance? mr. thornley. that is correct. mr. jenner. was that clearance of his restored? mr. thornley. i doubt it very much, because months afterwards, after i had left the outfit--i know it wasn't restored while i was in the outfit. mr. jenner. when did you leave the outfit? mr. thornley. i left in june and went overseas. mr. jenner. up to that time his clearance had not been restored? mr. thornley. definitely not. and shortly thereafter he got out of the service. mr. jenner. so that as far as you have any personal knowledge oswald never operated any radar equipment while he was at el toro, did you say? mr. thornley. yes; el toro, lta. as far as my personal knowledge goes, he didn't. mr. jenner. would you state the circumstances under which you became acquainted--let me put it this way first. what was the extent of your acquaintance with lee harvey oswald, and here at the moment i am directing myself only to whether you were friends, were you merely on the base together? indicate the level of friendship first or acquaintanceship. mr. thornley. i would say we were close acquaintances in the sense that we weren't friends in that we didn't pull liberty together or seek each other out, yet when we were thrown together in an assignment or something, moving equipment, something of that nature, we spoke and when we were on the base and happened to be in the same area and were not required to be working, we would sometimes sit down and discuss things. that would be my statement there. mr. jenner. so there was a degree of affinity in the sense that you were friendly in performing your military tasks together whenever you were thrown together in that respect. you felt friendly toward each other. you were never off base with him on liberty? mr. thornley. no, sir. mr. jenner. there were times when you were at liberty on the base, i assume, and you and he fraternized? mr. thornley. yes. mr. jenner. now, did you live in the same quarters? mr. thornley. well, not actually. we lived in quonset huts there, and he lived in a different hut than i did. we did live in the same general area, however. mr. jenner. this acquaintance arose in the spring of , is that correct? mr. thornley. yes, sir. mr. jenner. can you fix the time a little more definitely than merely the spring? mr. thornley. i really can't, sir. i have been racking my brain on that one since november, and i can't fix the time. i do remember having taken some time off that year around easter and going on a trip with some civilian friends of mine, who were out of school for easter vacation, and i know i was in the outfit that oswald was in at that time, and i know that either shortly before that trip or shortly afterwards. i can remember from the books i was reading at the time and things like that, that i met him. mr. jenner. do you associate the books you were reading at that time with anything oswald may have been reading? mr. thornley. yes. oswald was not reading but did advise me to read george orwell's " " which i read at that time. mr. jenner. was he on the base when you came there? mr. thornley. well, i was on the base in a different outfit before i came into macs , the outfit i was in. mr. jenner. marine air control squadron. mr. thornley. i was in macs which was right next door to macs or was at that time, on the base. mr. jenner. were you aware of his presence when you were in the other macs? mr. thornley. no; not until i came into his outfit. and only sometime after i came into that outfit did i become aware of his presence. mr. jenner. were you--i will withdraw that. was oswald as far as you knew on the base before you came over to his unit? mr. thornley. i would assume so, but i wouldn't know for sure. i know he was recently back from japan as were most of the men in marine control squadron when i came into it. how long he had been back i don't know. i certainly didn't know at that time. and thinking on what knowledge of him i have gained since then, i still couldn't say. mr. jenner. well, in any event you first became acquainted with or aware of his presence around easter time in ? mr. thornley. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and you were transferred from that base when? mr. thornley. june. mr. jenner. in june. so likely it was that you knew him in april, may, and in june until you were transferred out? mr. thornley. right. mr. jenner. when in june were you transferred out? mr. thornley. once again the exact date would be available in my military record, but offhand---- mr. jenner. give it to me as best you recall it, forepart, latter part, middle? mr. thornley. let's see, it was toward the latter part. in fact, i can give you pretty close to the exact date. it was around june , because we arrived in japan on july and it took days to get over there. it took us some time to get debarked or to get embarked, rather. mr. jenner. all right. i take it from the remark you have made in your reflecting on this matter that you were--you devoted yourself to some fairly considerable extent to reading? mr. thornley. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and in what fields? mr. thornley. completely omniverous. anything that i would happen to get a hold of i would read. at that time i was reading, well, at oswald's advice i read " ." at someone else's advice i was reading a book called "humanism," by corliss lamont, as i remember, and i was reading either "the brothers karamazov" or the "idiot" by dostoievsky, i forget which, at that time. mr. jenner. but your reading had some reasonable amount of organization or direction? mr. thornley. none whatsoever; no, sir. it never has. mr. jenner. i see. you weren't engaged in any organized reading at that time, were you? mr. thornley. no. mr. jenner. but there were areas which did draw your attention by and large? mr. thornley. definitely; yes. mr. jenner. what were those areas? mr. thornley. philosophy, politics, religion. mr. jenner. did you find that oswald had reasonably similar interests? mr. thornley. yes; i would say. mr. jenner. in his reading? mr. thornley. yes; i would say particularly in politics and philosophy. mr. jenner. was it those mutual interests that brought about your acquaintance with him or some other fashion? mr. thornley. yes, sir; it was those interests. my first memory of him is that one afternoon he was sitting on a bucket out in front of a hut, an inverted bucket, with some other marines. they were discussing religion. i entered the discussion. it was known already in the outfit that i was an atheist. immediately somebody pointed out to me that oswald was also an atheist. mr. jenner. did they point that out to you in his presence? mr. thornley. yes. mr. jenner. what reaction did he have to that? mr. thornley. he said, "what do you think of communism?" and i said---- mr. jenner. he didn't say anything about having been pointed out as being an atheist? mr. thornley. no; he wasn't offended at this at all. he was--it was done in a friendly manner, anyway, and he just said to me--the first thing he said to me was with his little grin; he looked at me and he said, "what do you think of communism?" and i replied i didn't think too much of communism, in a favorable sense, and he said, "well, i think the best religion is communism." and i got the impression at the time that he said this in order to shock. he was playing to the galleries, i felt. mr. jenner. the boys who were sitting around? mr. thornley. yes, sir. mr. jenner. engaged in scuttlebutt? mr. thornley. right. he was smirking as he said this and he said it very gently. he didn't seem to be a glass-eyed fanatic by any means. mr. jenner. did you have occasion to discuss the same subject thereafter? mr. thornley. yes, sir. mr. jenner. from time to time? mr. thornley. from time to time. mr. jenner. was it reasonably frequent? mr. thornley. i would say about a half dozen times in that time period. mr. jenner. in those subsequent discussions were some of them private in the sense you were not gathered around with others? mr. thornley. well, i don't recall us ever having a private serious discussion. a couple of times we were working together. there would be others around, not on a constant basis anyway, but coming and going, and as i recall a couple of times we were thrown together. working together, we weren't having a serious discussion; we were joking. mr. jenner. did you have occasion in those additional half dozen instances of discussions with him, the viewpoint you have just expressed, that is, that his initial raising of the issue was more by way of provoking or shocking those about him rather than any utterances on his part of sincerity in a belief that communism was itself a religion? mr. thornley. it became obvious to me after a while, in talking to him, that definitely he thought that communism was the best--that the marxist morality was the most rational morality to follow that he knew of. and that communism was the best system in the world. i still certainly wouldn't--wouldn't have predicted, for example, his defection to the soviet union, because once again he seemed idle in his admiration for communism. he didn't seem to be an activist. mr. jenner. would you explain what you mean by idle in his admiration of the communistic system? mr. thornley. well, it seemed to be theoretical. it seemed strictly a dispassionate appraisal--i did know at the time that he was learning the russian language. i knew he was subscribing to pravda or a russian newspaper of some kind from moscow. all of this i took as a sign of his interest in the subject, and not as a sign of any active commitment to the communist ends. mr. jenner. you felt there was no devotion there. that it was somewhat of an intellectual interest, a curiosity. but i don't want to put words in your mouth, so tell me. mr. thornley. i wouldn't put it quite that weakly. while i didn't feel there was any rabid devotion there, i wouldn't call it a complete idle curiosity either. i would call it a definite interest. mr. jenner. a definite interest. mr. thornley. but not a fanatical devotion. mr. jenner. you said you knew at that time that he was studying russian. how did you become aware of that? mr. thornley. probably by hearsay once again. i do remember one time hearing the comment made by one man in the outfit that there was some other man in the outfit who was taking a russian newspaper and who was a communist and when i said, "well, who is that?" he said, "oswald," and i said, "oh, well." that is probably where i learned it. mr. jenner. how did you learn that he was a subscriber to pravda and the other russian publications you have mentioned? mr. thornley. well, i don't think--it was either pravda or some other russian publication. mr. jenner. i see. mr. thornley. the way i learned that was a story that i believe bud simco, a friend of mine in the same outfit, in the outfit at the same time, told me that one time a lieutenant, and i forget which lieutenant it was (i do remember at the time i did know who he was talking about) found out that oswald, by--he happened to be in the mailroom or something, and saw a paper with oswald's address on it. mr. jenner. that is the officer happened to be in the mailroom? mr. thornley. yes; and that it was written--he noticed this paper was written in russian and at the time got very excited, attempted to draw this to the attention of oswald's section chief, the commanding officer, and, of course, there was nothing these people could do about it, and at the time the story was related to me. i remember i thought it was rather humorous that this young, either second or first lieutenant should get so excited because oswald happened to be subscribing to a russian newspaper. mr. jenner. was this lieutenant's name delprado? mr. thornley. i will bet it was. that is very familiar. i think so. mr. jenner. have you ever subscribed to a russian language newspaper or other publications? mr. thornley. other russian publications? mr. jenner. yes, sir. mr. thornley. no, sir. mr. jenner. have you ever subscribed to a publication that was printed in the russian language? mr. thornley. no, sir. mr. jenner. have you ever been a subscriber to any literature by way of news media or otherwise, published by any organization reputed to be communistic or pink or that sort of thing? i don't want to get it too broad. mr. thornley. only i. f. stone's newsletter and that certainly---- mr. jenner. whose? mr. thornley. i. f. stone's newsletter and i wouldn't say---- mr. jenner. tell me about that. mr. thornley. he is a washington reporter who is a rather extreme leftist, but certainly within the bounds of what is accepted in this country as non-subversive. mr. jenner. describe yourself in that respect. where are you, a middle-of-the-roader? mr. thornley. i would say i am an extreme rightist. i call myself a libertarian, which is that i believe in the complete sovereignty of the individual, or at least as much individual liberty as is practical under any given system. mr. jenner. you don't have to be an extreme rightist to believe in the sovereignty of the individual. mr. thornley. well, it is getting that way in this country today. at least most people who listen to me talk call me a rightist. i wouldn't say so either. i think the political spectrum was fine for france at the time of the revolution. i don't think it applies to the united states of america today in any respect whatsoever. i don't think you can call a man an extreme leftist, rightist, or middle-of-the-roader and have him classified that simply. mr. jenner. do you have any brothers and sisters? mr. thornley. i have two brothers. mr. jenner. what do they do? mr. thornley. they go to, one of them goes to junior college, i believe, and the other one goes to high school. they are in whittier, calif. mr. jenner. are your folks alive? mr. thornley. yes, sir. mr. jenner. what does your father do? mr. thornley. he is a photoengraver. mr. jenner. let's get back to oswald. describe this individual to me. first describe him physically. mr. thornley. physically, i would say he was slightly below average height. had, as i recall, gray or blue eyes. always had, or almost always had a petulant expression on his face. pursed-up lip expression, either a frown or a smile, depending on the circumstances. was of average build, and his hair was brown, and tending to, like mine, tending to bald a little on each side. mr. jenner. above the temple. what would you say he weighed? mr. thornley. i would say he weighed about pounds, maybe . mr. jenner. how tall was he? mr. thornley. i would say he was about five-five maybe. i don't know. mr. jenner. how tall are you? mr. thornley. i am five-ten. mr. jenner. was he shorter than you? mr. thornley. yes. mr. jenner. what habits did he have with respect to his person--was he neat, clean? mr. thornley. extremely sloppy. mr. jenner. extremely sloppy? mr. thornley. he was. this i think might not have been true of him in civilian life. mr. jenner. you don't know one way or the other? mr. thornley. no; but i do have reason to believe that it wasn't true of him in civilian life because it fitted into a general personality pattern of his: to do whatever was not wanted of him, a recalcitrant trend in his personality. mr. jenner. you think it was deliberate? mr. thornley. i think it tended to be deliberate; yes. it was a gesture of rebellion on his part. mr. jenner. did you ever discuss that matter with him, as dress. mr. thornley. no. mr. jenner. the attitude of rebellion? mr. thornley. no; because this attitude of rebellion was a fairly common thing in the service. mr. jenner. on the part of others as well as oswald? mr. thornley. as well as oswald. oswald did carry it to--was the most extreme example i can think of stateside. however, overseas, in the outfit he had been in before, as i discovered later, this was quite common. mr. jenner. how much later? mr. thornley. three months--well, immediately, as soon as i left, as soon as i got overseas. i walked in to the barracks on the fourth of july over there and saw beer bottles spread all over, and some character sitting in the back of the barracks with a broken beer bottle cutting his arm, for what reason i don't remember. they found beer cans in a trash can in macs and there was a drastic investigation; so there is an indication of a difference between stateside and overseas. oswald was typical, very typical of the outfit he had just left overseas. mr. jenner. so that it is your impression, you would say. i gather, that as of that particular time when you first knew him that he was still carrying some of his experience personal attentionwise from what he had experienced overseas? mr. thornley. yes. mr. jenner. and he was still following the habits he had acquired overseas? mr. thornley. yes. mr. jenner. did you think it went beyond that, this unkemptness or this sloppiness? mr. thornley. it did go beyond that, because he seemed to be a person who would go out of his way to get into trouble, get some officer or staff sergeant mad at him. he would make wise remarks. he had a general bitter attitude toward the corps. he used to pull his hat down over his eyes so he wouldn't have to look at anything around him and go walking around very beetle bailey style. mr. jenner. what is beetle bailey? mr. thornley. beetle bailey is a comic strip character who walks around with his hat over his eyes very much as oswald did. mr. jenner. you want to keep in mind, mr. thornley, i am an old man and there are things i don't pick up or get hep to. mr. thornley. this is nothing recent. this is a comic strip that has been around quite a few years now. mr. jenner. you go on and tell us about his personality. mr. thornley. all right. mr. jenner. including any physical characteristics or habits. mr. thornley. i think i have covered all physical characteristics. his shoes were always unshined. as i mentioned, he walked around with the bill of his cap down over his eyes and you got the impression that he was doing this so he wouldn't have to look at anything around him. mr. jenner. and he was doing that so that he would not be assigned additional work or---- mr. thornley. no; he was just doing that--this was just an attempt, i think, on his part, to blot out the military so he wouldn't have to look at it; he wouldn't have to think about it. in fact, i think he made a comment to that effect at one time; that when he had his bill of his cap over his eyes so he would see as little as possible, because he didn't like what he had to look at. he had, as i remember, he had a sense of humor, and i can only think of a couple of examples of it. i have only been able to think of a couple of examples of it over the past few months, but i have a strong general impression in my mind that there were more examples that i just don't remember. mr. jenner. well, you draw on your recollection as best you can and you just keep telling us now in your own words and i will try to not interrupt you too much. mr. thornley. all right. one example was, that i remember--of course, it was well known in the outfit that, or popularly believed that oswald had communist sympathies---- mr. jenner. you didn't share that view? mr. thornley. not as much as some did, and while this was popularly believed, i mention this as kind of a framework for the significance of oswald's comment: master sergeant spar, our section chief, jumped up on the fender one day and said, "all right, everybody gather around," and oswald said in a very thick russian accent, "ah ha, collective farm lecture," in a very delighted tone. this brought him laughs at the time, and he had gotten me to read " ," as i mentioned earlier, and this was one of his favorites---- mr. jenner. tell me what " " was. mr. thornley. this was a book about--it is a projection into the future, supposed to take place in in england under a complete police state. it is, i would say, an anti-utopian novel, by george orwell, a criticism of english socialism and what it might lead to, based upon orwell's experiences with communism and nazism, his observations about a society in which a mythical leader called big brother dominates everybody's life. where there are television cameras on every individual at all times watching his every act, where sex is practically outlawed, where the world is perpetually at war, three big police states constantly at war with one another, and where thought police keep every, all of the citizens in line. oswald would often compare the marine corps with the system of government outlined in " ." i remember one day we were loading equipment---- mr. jenner. by way of protest against the marine corps? mr. thornley. yes; humorously, satirically. one day we were unloading, moving a radarscope off the truck and it slipped, and he said, "be careful with big brother's equipment." it was things like this. he did a lot of that. i remember one day he--i was walking along with my hands in my pocket, which is something you don't do in the service if you are--certainly if you are in an infantry outfit you don't dare. things were a little lax in our outfit, so we could get away with it once in a while, so i happened to be walking along with my hands in my pockets and suddenly i heard a voice: "hey, smith, winston," and rattle off a serial number, "get your hands out of your pockets," which was a direct quote from the book " ." these are the only examples of oswald's, that particular aspect of oswald's character that i recall. mr. jenner. i am stimulated to ask you this question by something you just said. did he have a good memory? mr. thornley. i think he must have had a good memory; yes. if he wanted to remember something, he could. i think he also had good ability to blot out unpleasant thoughts in his mind. mr. jenner. what about his powers of assimilation of what he read, and his powers of critique? mr. thornley. i certainly think he understood much more than many people in the press have seemed to feel. i don't think he was a man who was grasping onto his particular beliefs because he didn't understand them. i don't think he was just trying to know something over his head, by any means. i think he understood what he was talking about. sometimes i think there were gaps in his knowledge. i think there were many things he didn't know, and this came from a haphazard education. mr. jenner. you became acquainted with the fact that he had had a somewhat haphazard education? mr. thornley. it was obvious. i didn't become acquainted with it specifically until recently in the news. but---- mr. jenner. you had that impression at the time? mr. thornley. i had that impression; yes, sir. mr. jenner. how did that impression arise? because of the lack of analysis or real critique on his part of that which he was reading? inability to assimilate the thrust of a work? mr. thornley. no; i wouldn't say that. i would say he could analyze what he read very well, but it was a very subjective impression, and the idea i got was that there were a lot of things he didn't know, and just a lot of facts that he wasn't familiar with. i guess sometimes, probably in discussions, i would run into something. i would mention something and he would say, "what is that?" i know we did have a couple of very hot arguments and i am sure we were throwing facts at one another, and he was certainly able to belt them out when he wanted to, facts that suited his purpose in arguing. mr. jenner. what was your impression of his--the extent of his formal education and the extent of any private education of his; that is, reading--self-education. mr. thornley. self-education. i was certainly surprised that--when i read in the papers that he had not graduated, i think they said he had not graduated from high school. mr. jenner. that is correct. mr. thornley. i thought he had graduated from high school. i assumed that. i would say that his self-education certainly must have been--perhaps, in fact, he took usafi courses, u.s. armed forces institute courses, or something along that line, because he was one who gave the impression of having some education, certainly. mr. jenner. do you have an impression of his intellect? mr. thornley. yes; i think he was---- mr. jenner. i am speaking in the abstract. mr. thornley. i think he was extremely intelligent, with what information he had at hand he could always do very well and in an argument he was quick. he was quick to answer, and it was not a matter of just grabbing at something. it was a matter of coming back with a fairly precise answer to your question or to your objection to his argument. mr. jenner. i take it then it was your impression--i will change my question because i don't want to ask a leading question here. what was your impression as to whether his learning, in the sense we are talking about now, was superficial or was he able to master that which he read, and engage in personal self-critique of that which he read, discover its weaknesses, and apprehend its major thrust? mr. thornley. well, i would say as i have said before, he certainly understood what he read. how much he had read, i don't know, but i do know that when he got on a subject in which he was interested, he showed a grasp of it. this is true with the book " ," for example. it is true with marxism. mr. jenner. now that interests me also. you mentioned that before; that is, his espousal of or interest in marxism as such. what was his ability, if he had any, and i am talking now idealistically only, to compare marxism, communism, democracy? mr. thornley. i understand. i think---- mr. jenner. and did he understand the distinctions? mr. thornley. well, i think he understood the distinctions as well as most reasonably educated people do. i think he certainly had a marxist bias in how--where he drew the lines. for example, he could look upon the soviet system today as a democracy by, of course, giving a completely different definition to the word "democracy" than i, for example. he would give---- mr. jenner. can you remember some discussions or incidents that explain that? would he use objectivism? mr. thornley. well, i remember one in particular that always reminded me of his general outlook. one day we got into an argument and i thought i was really going to pin him to the wall, i thought i was going to win this argument. mr. jenner. on what subject? mr. thornley. on marxism. on the theory of history. mr. jenner. reconstruct the argument for me. mr. thornley. well, all right. let me add this. when i was in my freshman year in college, in my english class, i believe it was, perhaps it was a history class we had been required to read, it was a history workshop, we had been required to read the communist manifesto which presents an outline of the theory of the marx-engels outlook on past and future history. the dialectical outlook. oswald was also familiar with this outlook. as to what it constituted we both agreed. oswald had argued previously that communism was a rational approach to life, a scientific approach to life, marxism. mr. jenner. this was in argumentation with you? mr. thornley. yes. mr. jenner. all right. mr. thornley. with me. i challenged him to show me any shred of evidence to support the idea that history took place in the manner described by engels and marx (this was not just an arbitrary system looted as many suspect, from hegel) and he, after some attempt to give me a satisfactory answer, which he was unable to do, became aware of that and he admitted that there was no justification, logically, for the communist theory of history or the marxist theory of history, but that marxism was still, in his opinion, the best system for other reasons that there was---- mr. jenner. best as against what? mr. thornley. as against, well primarily as against religions. he did--that first comment of his always sticks in my mind, about communism being the best religion. he did think of communism as, not as a religion in the strict sense but as an overwhelming cultural outlook that, once applied to a country, would make it much better off than, say the roman catholic church cultural outlook or the hindu cultural outlook or the islamic cultural outlook, and he felt that, as i say, to get back to this argument, he felt that there were enough other things about communism that justified it that one could accept the theory of history on faith. mr. jenner. what other things? mr. thornley. well, for one thing: the idea that he felt--as did marx--that under capitalism workers are exploited, that in some way they are robbed of their full reward for their work by means of entrepreneurs' profits, and he felt that marxism took his money but instead of taking it away from the worker spent it on the worker. he felt that under a soviet--under the present soviet system, for example, that the money was spent for the benefit of the people rather than going to the individual who happened to be running the enterprise, and he thought this was a juster situation. mr. jenner. did you raise with him the price the individual had to pay for the material accommodation accorded the worker under the communist system; for the substance or money, of which you speak, being returned to the worker? the price paid in terms of individual liberty as against the capitalistic or democratic system? mr. thornley. you couldn't say this to him. because he would say: "how do you know? how do you know what is going on there." mr. jenner. first; did you raise it with him? mr. thornley. i raised it with him. mr. jenner. you being a libertarian as you say? mr. thornley. well, at that time i was--my ideas have changed since that time. at that time i was much to the left in my political thinking once again; well, i would say about in the same position that mr. stone who i spoke of earlier is now. i was on the "left-hand" side of the acceptable political spectrum in this country, and so, therefore, these issues, the issues i would now raise with him had i again the chance to speak to him, would be much different than the issues i raised with him at that time. i did not raise that issue particularly, i did not push it. mr. jenner. was there much, if any, discussion at the time on the issue of individual liberty? mr. thornley. no; very little, because i wasn't too concerned about it at the time and neither was he. we were both concerned about what was the best for the greatest number of people. i don't think that concept was clear to either one of us. mr. jenner. but, even having in mind the status of your political thinking at that moment, your political thinking did not square with his? mr. thornley. no; i was opposed to the great trust that he put in, much greater than i suspected at that time, of course, trust that he put in the soviet government in the world today i felt they were misguided idealists. he felt they weren't misguided. mr. jenner. give us as best you can recall his comments and views with respect to capitalism of the variety then existing, or as he understood existed in this nation. mr. thornley. well, i wouldn't say that we--i can't recall us having gone into any detail about anything so relevant to anything as capitalism in this nation at the time. mr. jenner. these discussions were broader. they were more abstract? mr. thornley. usually, yes. whenever we got specific we usually discussed the marine corps. mr. jenner. i see. you did not discuss the united states of america as such? mr. thornley. no. mr. jenner. and the soviet union as such, and compared the two countries? mr. thornley. well, as i say, you couldn't do this with oswald because whenever you tried to make any statement about the soviet union he would challenge it on the grounds that we were probably propagandized in this country and we had no knowledge of what was going on over there. mr. jenner. did he purport to know what was going on over there? mr. thornley. no. mr. jenner. did he show any interest in what was going on over there? mr. thornley. he definitely showed interest. mr. jenner. give us some examples and tell us. mr. thornley. i would say he took an agnostical approach to this. it seemed that he didn't know whether to believe what he read in his russian newspaper, not that he used those exact words, or what he heard in this country. he took the attitude that "well, they may be right and we may be right but i suspect they are right." this, of course, once again, i always got the impression in any of these discussions that part of his slight bias toward the communist way of life was an act of rebellion against the present circumstances. mr. jenner. do you think that bias, if any, was a mild bias? mr. thornley. i thought so at the time. mr. jenner. did you have any impression at anytime that he was interested from an objective standpoint; that he might like to experience by way of personal investigation what was going on in russia? mr. thornley. it never dawned on me. it was the farthest thing from my mind. although i certainly will say this: when he did go to russia it seemed to me as a much more likely alternative for oswald than say joining the communist party in the united states. mr. jenner. excuse me. mr. thornley. it seemed to fit his personality. mr. jenner. would you read that? i lost the thought of it. (the reporter read the answer.) mr. jenner. would you elaborate, please? mr. thornley. well, oswald was not militant. at the time it didn't seem to me he was at all militant. that he was at all a fighter, the kind of person who would glory in thinking of himself as marching along in a great crusade of some kind. he would be the kind of person who would take a quiet, as quiet as possible, for him personally, approach to something. for example, going to the soviet union would be a way he could experience what he thought were the benefits of communism without committing himself to storming the bastille, so to speak. mr. jenner. is it a fair statement that, in seeking to interpret or enlarge upon what you say, that you did not have the impression of him as being a person who thought in terms of seeking to implant in this country, for example, by force or violence or other leadership, communism or marxism so as materially to affect or change the government here? mr. thornley. no; i don't think he felt he had to do that. i think he felt that that would inevitably happen some day and he was just getting into the swing of things by doing things his way. i don't think he felt that he could do much to promote the communist cause or hinder it. mr. jenner. did he ever lead you to believe or did you have the impression that he had any thought or desire or inclination to implant communism here or elsewhere. mr. thornley. no; not any more than merely to with the argument. he certainly would have liked to have converted me or any other person who was willing to discuss it with him. he would have liked to have persuaded them that his ideas were correct. if he had done so, i have no idea what he would have done then. i don't think he did either. mr. jenner. what about his relationships, camaraderie with others on base? mr. thornley. almost nil. mr. jenner. almost nil. mr. thornley. yes, he got along---- mr. jenner. enlarge on that please. mr. thornley. he got along with very few people. mr. jenner. why was that, in your opinion? mr. thornley. he was extremely unpredictable. he and i stopped speaking before i finally left the outfit. this will give you an example of---- mr. jenner. how did that arise? mr. thornley. it was a saturday morning. we had been called out to march in a parade for a man or some men--i believe they were staff nco's--who were retiring from the marine corps. this was a common occurrence. every now and then we had to give up our saturday morning liberty to go march in one of these parades and everybody, of course, having just gotten up, and having to stand out, to look forward to a morning of standing out in the hot sun and marching around, was irritable. so, we were involved at the moment in a "hurry-up and wait routine" which is common in large organizations like the military. we were waiting at the moment, in the parking lot by the parade ground, sitting. oswald and i happened to be sitting next to each other on a log that was used to bank cars, in the parking lot. i had just finished " " a couple of days earlier, and i had not yet discussed it with oswald, and i was--he said something and i said something; i don't recall what it was--i was definitely thinking of " " at the time and i was using terms from " ." oswald didn't seem to be particularly amused by what i was saying, and he was--he seemed to be kind of lost in his own thoughts, and so i stopped making any comments at all to him for awhile. then he turned to me and said something about the stupidity of the parade, of the whole circumstance right at the moment, how angry it made him, and i said, i believe my words were, "well, comes the revolution you will change all that." at which time he looked at me like a betrayed caesar and screamed, screamed definitely, "not you, too, thornley." and i remember his voice cracked as he said this. he was definitely disturbed at what i had said and i didn't really think i had said that much. he put his hands in his pockets and pulled his hat down over his eyes and walked away and went over and sat down someplace else alone, and i thought, well, you know, forget about it, and i never said anything to him again and he never said anything to me again. mr. jenner. you mean you never spoke to each other from that time on? mr. thornley. no; and shortly thereafter i left the outfit for overseas. i don't recall that we were ever in a situation where we would have spoken, but i know we never spoke after that. and this happened with many people, this reaction of oswald's, and therefore he had few friends. he never seemed to have any one friend for a long length of time, one acquaintance. he seemed to guard against developing real close friendships. mr. jenner. did you ever--excuse me, you recall being interviewed by an agent of the fbi? mr. thornley. yes, sir. mr. jenner. this was in new orleans on monday the th of---- mr. thornley. this was on an afternoon. does he have the time down? mr. jenner. th of november. mr. thornley. that was secret service, wasn't it? let's see, the d, d, th. mr. jenner. this was special agent merwin alderson and special agent richard farrell. it was the monday following the assassination. mr. thornley. what i believe happened is--i believe they arrived in arnaud's restaurant where i was working at the time about midnight sunday night so it would actually be monday, yes, sir, that they talked to me. i gathered at the time these gentlemen were from the secret service, but those are the gentlemen. mr. jenner. did you say to them in connection with this sudden termination of the relationship between yourself and oswald "that you had made this comment to oswald, that he was a communist and that things would be different when the revolution came"? mr. thornley. no; i didn't tell them he was a communist; no. but oswald, certainly that was his reason for his anger. there was an implied accusation of communism in my saying, "comes the revolution you will change all that." mr. jenner. yes. mr. thornley. you see, he wasn't understanding the comments i was making in relation to " " at all, our traditional meeting ground here. he was interpreting them in light of his alleged communism, and that is why he became angry. but no; i didn't say to him, "you are a communist"--ever. mr. jenner. it is your explanation. mr. thornley. this was not my opinion. mr. jenner. you are saying that he interpreted your comment to be that you accused him of being a communist, and then he made the remark, "not you, too." mr. thornley. i am sure he interpreted that that way but i certainly didn't think he was a communist and i certainly didn't tell him so. mr. jenner. to what did you attribute this inability of his to maintain reasonably cordial or at least military-service family relations with his fellow marines? mr. thornley. well, at the time i just thought--well, the man is a nut--at the very moment it happened, i dismissed it without thinking about it. mr. jenner. see if you can articulate a little more, when you say "a nut," a lot of people will interpret the expression "a nut" differently. mr. thornley. i understand that. i was just trying to give you my first impression first: that he was some kind of a nut, and i stopped thinking about it. mr. jenner. you mean a nut in the sense of an extremist, not an organized thinker? mr. thornley. i didn't think about that enough to classify it. i just thought, "something is wrong with him, maybe something is bugging him today, maybe he is crazy, i don't know what," but i just wasn't at that moment--it wasn't that important to me, i didn't feel much better than he did that morning, i am sure, so i just shrugged it off. later, i did reflect on it, and that, combined with his general habits in relation to his superiors, and to the other men in the outfit, caused me to decide that he had a definite tendency toward irrationality at times, an emotional instability. once again right away, i didn't know exactly what was the cause of this. a couple of years later i had good reason to think about it some more, at which time i noticed---- mr. jenner. now when please? before the assassination? mr. thornley. yes, while working on my book, "the idle warriors." mr. jenner. about when was this? mr. thornley. from the time he went to the soviet union until february of . mr. jenner. you learned that he had gone to the soviet union? mr. thornley. yes; i was stationed at his former outfit, marine air control squadron , at the time he went to the soviet union. mr. jenner. where were you then stationed? mr. thornley. that is where i was at the time. mr. jenner. what country? mr. thornley. at atsugi, japan. mr. jenner. i see. and you learned about it through what source? mr. thornley. the stars and stripes, the military newspaper in the far east. it was on page , i believe, a little article about lee harvey oswald having appeared in the american embassy in moscow, having plopped down his passport and requested soviet citizenship. my first reaction was, "good lord, what is going on here?" and afterward, i, of course--it began to occur to me, his interest in communism, and i started kicking myself, thinking, well, you know, just for so misjudging a person. i just---- mr. jenner. misjudging? what respect, please? mr. thornley. as far as his sincerity went. i did not ever think he was so interested in communism to go to all the trouble to go to the soviet union and certainly to jeopardize his citizenship, and so forth. this was a great surprise to me. and right away i began to try to figure out the mechanism of his thinking. mr. jenner. i see. keep going and tell me what your rationalization and thinking was at that time. mr. thornley. and what caused him to do this. this gets us back to the emotional instability and why did it occur. i do believe, to begin with, oswald, how long ago he had acquired the idea i don't know, but i think in his mind it was almost a certainty that the world would end up under a totalitarian government or under totalitarian governments. i think he accepted orwell's premise in this that their was no fighting it. that sooner or later you were going to have to love big brother and i think this was the central, i think this was the central thing that disturbed him and caused many of his other reactions. i think he wanted to be on the winning side for one thing, and, therefore, the great interest in communism. i think he wanted--i think he felt he was under a totalitarian system while in the marine corps, and, therefore, the extreme reactions when someone would call him a communist. i think he had a persecution complex, and i think he strove to maintain it. i could not go so far as to say why. perhaps it was necessary to his self-esteem in some way. this was and is the general conclusion i now have as to his general motivations, his overall motivations, insofar as he has tended to be emotionally unstable. mr. jenner. do you think he was emotionally unstable? mr. thornley. i think so. mr. jenner. that is an opinion you gathered from your association with him in the marines. mr. thornley. yes. primarily once again from that last experience, that short exchange and just the complete unexpectedness of it. and then, of course, after that was when i learned some of the other things, such as the pouring the beer over the staff sergeant's head. these things, i don't know when i learned them, but i do definitely know i learned them afterwards because i---- mr. jenner. you mean you learned of that incident after you left the base at el toro? mr. thornley. i believe i learned it over in japan, as a matter of fact, i believe soon after i got there somebody mentioned it in some connection or another, and that was because i remember, yes, i am sure it happened over there because i remember, then i said, "oh, he was in this unit? he was in here in macs ?" and somebody said, "yes." and that was another connection in my mind as far as oswald was concerned. and then when the defection occurred, i therefore felt that i--i had been thinking about writing a book on the marine corps. i had not decided exactly what it was going to concern, what it was going to be about as far as plot or theme went, the background would be the marine corps in japan, because that was the first big, at that time to me, dramatic experience of my life suitable for a book, worth telling about. so, when the defection occurred on that same day, i thought, "well, this is it. i am in a perfect position to tell how this took place, why this happened." i was not so interested in explaining lee harvey oswald to myself or anybody else, as i was in explaining that particular phenomenon of disillusionment with the united states after serving in the marine corps overseas in a peacetime capacity; thus the title: the idle warriors. since oswald inspired the book, i did base a good deal of it as a matter of convenience on his personality and on his ideas. mr. jenner. you said you had the impression as you sat there in japan that here was a man whom you felt wanted to be on the winning side. mr. thornley. yes. mr. jenner. what impression did you have as to why? did you, for example, have the impression that he felt that his life had been such that he had been deprived of the opportunity to be on a good side? mr. thornley. no. mr. jenner. that he conceived to be the leading side? mr. thornley. no. i had a definite impression of why. mr. jenner. all right. mr. thornley. i think it is a mistake that many people make, and i think it is a mistake he shared, and that is: he looked upon, not only marxists make this mistake, but he looked upon history as god. he looked upon the eyes of future people as some kind of tribunal, and he wanted to be on the winning side so that , years from now people would look in the history books and say, "well, this man was ahead of his time. this man was"--he wanted to be looked back upon with honor by future generations. it was, i think, a substitute, in his case, for traditional religion. the eyes of the future became what to another man would be the eyes of god, or perhaps to yet another man the eyes of his own conscience. mr. jenner. so it wasn't in the prosaic sense of merely wanting to be on the "winning side." mr. thornley. no. mr. jenner. when things developed---- mr. thornley. no; i don't think he expected things to develop within his lifetime. i am sure that he didn't. he just wanted to be on the winning side for all eternity. mr. jenner. you had the impression that that was in terms of selflessness? that he thought also in terms that lee harvey oswald would be associated with this forward thinking? mr. thornley. right. he was concerned with his image in history and i do think that is why he chose once again, once again why he chose the particular method he chose and did it in the way he did. it got him in the newspapers. it did broadcast his name out. i think he probably expected the russians to accept him on a much higher--in a much higher capacity than they did. i think he expected them to, in his own dreams, to invite him to take a position in their government, possibly as a technician, and i think he then felt that he could go out into the world, into the communist world and distinguish himself and work his way up into the party, perhaps. he was definitely---- mr. jenner. did it have to be the communist world or could it be any world that he saw projected into the future? mr. thornley. definitely. mr. jenner. and as you put it this, in your opinion, had become a religion with him. mr. thornley. much more than he himself realized even though he called it his religion. mr. jenner. did you have the impression there was a personal selflessness, that is a--i will put it in terms of disregard or rather this way--that as far as his physical person was concerned, he wasn't concerned about life in the sense that he wanted to continue to maintain life in his body? mr. thornley. no; i think he wanted physical happiness. i think this is why he didn't do something like just join the communist party. i believe he felt that was dangerous. i think he wanted to live comfortably. but i think if it came to a choice between the two, or to put it this way, more relevant to events that developed later, i think if it became to his mind impossible for him to have this degree of physical comfort that he expected or sought, i think he would then throw himself entirely on the other thing he also wanted, which was the image in history. i don't think that--i think he wanted both if he could have them. if he didn't, he wanted to die with the knowledge that, or with the idea that he was somebody. mr. jenner. did you have the impression at any time that he, in turn, embraced a realization that he was lacking in ability to accomplish the former, that is, personal comfort and status, that is that he felt that there was a lack of ability, capacity, training, education on his part? mr. thornley. when i knew him, i don't think he had the vaguest thought in that direction. i do definitely, of course, based solely upon what i have read in the newspapers, think he came to that moment, after returning to the united states from the soviet union. i think he was getting panicky. mr. jenner. in our discussion you can see it is important to me to obtain your thinking, uninfluenced to the extent you can do it by subsequent events. of course complete lack of influence is not possible, but i am seeking your views as to your state of mind prior to november . mr. thornley. all right. i would say that prior to november , i felt that he had gradually become disillusioned with the united states for many reasons, at the bottom was also his conviction, well, in fact, his disillusionment with the united states in the far east probably contributed to some extent to his conviction that the communists would eventually prevail, the communist culture would eventually prevail in the world, and i then had the feeling that he certainly--i thought he would probably stay in russia, for example, forever. i didn't know what he was doing there. i realized from what i read at that time that he was not--he did not have russian citizenship. he was staying there as an immigrant. i expected him probably to adjust to russian life and that would be the last that the western world would ever hear of oswald. everything oswald has ever done has surprised me. mr. jenner. please elaborate on that. mr. thornley. when i knew him and since i knew him, when i knew him i was surprised when he was offended at my statement about the coming of the revolution that saturday morning. i was surprised when i read in the papers overseas that he had gone to the soviet union. i was surprised when he came back. and i was entirely caught unaware when it turned out that he was involved in the assassination, to such an extent that for some time afterwards, i thought he was innocent. mr. jenner. why were you surprised when he came back and tell us before you do that where were you and how did you find out about it. mr. thornley. i was in new orleans. my parents sent me an article from the los angeles times about it. the reason i was surprised at his coming back was as i said before, i just expected that would be the last i would hear of him. i fully expected him to adjust to soviet life. i thought what he--at that time i thought what he probably lacked in the marine corps was any sympathy for the overall purpose of the marine corps. whereas he certainly had sympathy for the overall purpose of the soviet government, so i don't think he would mind the restrictions imposed on him, as he resented them in the marine corps. i did not expect him to become disillusioned, certainly, with the soviet union. i am not, of course, sure that he did become disillusioned with it. it just seemed unlike him to come back to this country when he said he would never live in either as a capitalist or as a worker. mr. jenner. when did he say that? mr. thornley. he said that at a press conference in moscow according to the papers. mr. jenner. this was something you read in the stars and stripes? mr. thornley. i don't know whether i read this in the stars and stripes or whether i read this--i certainly read it when he came back from russia, i remember. it was in the article from the times my folks sent me. said when he had left for the soviet union he had said such-and-such, quote. mr. jenner. you said you did not expect him to become disillusioned with soviet russia. was it your impression at any time, take the several stages, that he had a conviction with respect to any form of political philosophy or government? mr. thornley. well, he did definitely always before and after have a marxist bias. from anything that has come to me, that has never--i have never reason--never had reason to doubt that. mr. jenner. that, you think, was a conviction? mr. thornley. i think that was an irrevocable conviction, you might say. mr. jenner. you do not think it was not merely a theoretical concept which he used for argumentation? mr. thornley. let me put it this way. i think you could sit down and argue with him for a number of years in a great marathon argument and have piles of facts and i don't think you could have changed his mind on that unless you knew why he believed it in the first place. i certainly don't. i don't think with any kind of formal argument you could have shaken that conviction. and that is why i say irrevocable. it was just--never getting back to looking at things from any other way once he had become a marxist, whenever that was. mr. jenner. was he able to articulate distinctions between marxism, communism, capitalism, democracy? mr. thornley. at the time i knew him and argued with him he didn't bother to articulate distinctions between marxism and communism. at a latter time i understand he did. mr. jenner. he attempted to. mr. thornley. at the time i knew his communism was the modern, living vicar of marxism, period. mr. jenner. were you in new orleans when he was arrested for distributing fair play for cuba committee leaflets? mr. thornley. i arrived in new orleans in the early part of september. if i was in new orleans---- mr. jenner. ? mr. thornley. yes. mr. jenner. this occurred in august of . mr. thornley. then i wasn't there; no. mr. jenner. did you hear about it? mr. thornley. no; i didn't. i didn't hear about it until after the assassination. mr. jenner. did you ever hear any of those tapes? mr. thornley. i heard part of one of them after the assassination, once again. mr. jenner. did that part include his effort to distinguish between marxism and democracy in response to a question put to him by either mr. stuckey or one of the other participants? mr. thornley. that is exactly what he was talking about at the time. i happened to be standing in the television station in new orleans and he was saying, and i just got a snatch of it, i was passing through the room or something; and he was saying, "well, there are many marxist countries in the world today." mr. jenner. this was by way of his answering a question as to what was the distinction between marxism and communism? mr. thornley. yes; he was saying there are many non-communist marxist countries in the world today and he was definitely making a distinction between marxism and communism. mr. jenner. but all he did was to cite the countries. he didn't attempt to make the distinction. mr. thornley. it was only a snatch of it. mr. jenner. that was a fair representation of his utterances during those two radio broadcasts and one television broadcast. you mentioned also that you had a feeling on his part that he was laboring under a persecution complex? mr. thornley. yes. mr. jenner. that was not necessarily based alone on the incident you relate that occurred on that saturday morning? were there other incidents? mr. thornley. yes; there were many comments on his part about the walls having ears, about--i think he felt the marine corps kept a pretty close watch on him because of his "subversive" activities and, for that reason in fact, i think he sought to keep himself convinced that he was being watched and being pushed a little harder than anyone else. i don't think he was consciously, perhaps not consciously, aware of the fact that he went out of his way to get into trouble. i think it was kind of necessary to him to believe that he was being picked on. it wasn't anything extreme. i wouldn't go so far as to call it, call him a paranoid, but a definite tendency there was in that direction, i think. mr. jenner. would you put it in terms that he had the feeling that he was being unjustifiably put upon? mr. thornley. oh, always; yes. he was, in fact, you almost got the feeling that he was--this was happening because of his defense. i mean he was always speaking of the injustices which had been perpetrated against him. mr. jenner. of his injustices as to him personally, different from the treatment of others about him? mr. thornley. to him personally; yes. well, and it was the fact that he had lost his clearance, and had gone out of his way to get into some degree of trouble that went on to support this. for example, we would stand at muster in the morning, and sergeant spar would call the roll and he would say "oswald" and oswald would step out of the ranks and he would send him off to mow the lawn or something. oswald did get special treatment. as i say, he had brought it on himself but he made the most of it, too, as far as using it as a means of getting or attempting to get sympathy. mr. jenner. well, what was the sergeant's name? mr. thornley. sergeant spar. mr. jenner. spar. in using his name, i don't wish to, i am not suggesting anything personal as to sergeant spar, but i am going to use him as a faceless marine sergeant. mr. thornley. and a very good one. mr. jenner. you marines, at least some of you, i assume, as had gi's and others, you buttered up sergeants, too, didn't you, in order to avoid being assigned too often to disagreeable tasks? mr. thornley. no; you didn't have to. so long as you kept in line and obeyed orders, you didn't have to--you weren't assigned any disagreeable task in the kind of outfit i was in because there weren't that many. when there was a disagreeable task to be done, it was assigned to somebody who had stepped out of line and there were always enough people who had stepped out of line and it was no problem to find them. in fact, the problem was to find enough disagreeable tasks to go around. the only exception to this would be overseas; a typhoon would hit sometimes and then everybody would have to go out and we would have to all, much to our dismay, wade around at o'clock in the morning and tear down tents and so on and so forth. mr. jenner. that was a thing that was common to all of you. mr. thornley. yes. mr. jenner. it was not a disagreeable task in the sense we are talking about. mr. thornley. right; and that was never necessary to have to butter up that i can ever think of to a superior of any kind in order to get exempted from anything. mr. jenner. well, do you think oswald was aware that all he had to be was more tractable to the customs and practices of the marine corps in which he was then living and he would not be assigned disagreeable tasks more often than others? mr. thornley. well, that is hard to say. i don't know whether he was aware of that or not. i am not sure whether he permitted himself to be aware of it. maybe he was aware of it and maybe he couldn't help. he had compulsions to do these things. maybe he thought it was worth it and maybe he didn't feel that he was being treated unjustly at all. maybe he just wanted everybody to think he felt he was being treated unjustly, if you follow me. mr. jenner. i do. mr. thornley. it could have been any of these things. this--i think it would take a good psychiatrist to find out which. mr. jenner. you also used the expression that he strove to maintain the status or milieu in which he had brought himself. mr. thornley. yes; i think this was possibly so. i think perhaps the feeling of being persecuted was necessary to his self-esteem. this is, i understand, a common thing, and it certainly fits in with everything else i know about him. mr. jenner. did you have that impression that you have just expressed at the time that you were associated with him in the marines? mr. thornley. at the time i was associated with him, i didn't have that impression because i was too busy wondering just what it was. i used to--i would see him doing something stupid, maybe a wisecrack to an officer, for example, and i would say, "well, doesn't the idiot know that if he does that he is going to have to do this" and yet he would resent his punishment. mr. jenner. what would he do afterward? mr. thornley. as if it had been thrust upon him for no reason whatsoever, out of the blue. mr. jenner. did you have a feeling that he was impulsive in that respect, in the sense that sometimes he did things? mr. thornley. he was definitely impulsive. mr. jenner. that he had no control? mr. thornley. well, i don't know whether he had no control or whether he would just do things without thinking. i think maybe he just let, relaxed his controls once in a while, and why, i don't know. mr. jenner. did you have the feeling he was impulsive? mr. thornley. oh, definitely. mr. jenner. he acted on the spur of the moment? mr. thornley. he was spontaneous, very much so. this was--i had this impression the whole time i knew him. mr. jenner. you did have the impression and i think you have mentioned it several times, that he had an exaggerated, either mild or otherwise, self-esteem. mr. thornley. no; i didn't mention that that i recall. i did say that i think maintaining the persecution complex was necessary for his self-esteem and he was concerned very much with his image in history but i don't think in the sense of being secure about his self-esteem; i don't think he was either conceited, for example, egotistical, or just plain confident. i don't think--i don't have any reason to believe that he in his own eyes, had any reason to be proud of himself beyond the average, at most. mr. jenner. i wasn't thinking of self-esteem in that sense and i didn't gather from your remark that you were thinking of it in that sense either, but rather in the sense of self-esteem in his own eyes, not in the sense of accomplishment or egoism. mr. thornley. now, i don't know. self-esteem in one's own eyes, it seems to me, would have to be justified by some means. some people justify it by means of their attraction to the opposite sex or by means of their standing in some country club. i think oswald justified it by means of his recalcitrance, kind of a reverse self-esteem. by means of his unwillingness to do what he was ordered, for example. mr. jenner. did you have the feeling that he sought the esteem of others, not necessarily his officers, but the esteem of somebody or some group or some persons about him and in his life---- mr. thornley. i think he wanted this very much but i don't think he knew how to go about getting it. he wanted it, and yet he certainly didn't--i think he would have felt he was cheating himself if he had offered them anything in exchange for it. he wanted it but he wanted it to come to him for no reason. he didn't want to have to earn it. i got that impression. that is a very mild impression. mr. jenner. we are dealing in a very delicate field here and i am pressing you very severely. mr. thornley. these are sometimes very gray, thin lines we have to distinguish between. mr. jenner. we are probing for motivation. did you ever discuss with him the matter of education? mr. thornley. no. mr. jenner. his own; or education in the abstract; or the need for education in order to attain accomplishments; or any regard to whether his status in life, his personal comfort, his personal peace, could be advanced by further education? mr. thornley. no. mr. jenner. did you ever have the feeling of any discomfort on his part or inferiority because of his limited education? mr. thornley. no. first of all, in the marine corps there is a prevalence of this kind of feeling among many of the enlisted men, and oswald was exempt from it. mr. jenner. what do you mean "exempt from it"? mr. thornley. well, he didn't, for example, have the usual bitterness toward somebody who read, well, just merely because he did read. mr. jenner. he may have felt superior because he did read, did you have that feeling? mr. thornley. oh, yes. mr. jenner. that was a definite feeling? mr. thornley. i wouldn't say anything in my experience with him caused me to particularly notice that he felt superior because he did read. but except, yes, there is one time a friend of his, i don't know who it was, i haven't been able to recall the name at present, one morning looked over at our commanding officer who was walking by, colonel poindexter, an air ace in korea---- mr. jenner. a what? mr. thornley. an ace pilot in korea, and made the comment, "there goes a mental midgit" which drew glee from oswald, as i remember. but aside from that one particular incident--well, in any case, when he was dealing with military superiors he always felt superior to them. you got that impression. but dealing with the other marines who maybe did have an education or did not have an education, i didn't get any, ever get any impression one way or the other that he had a tendency to react to this. mr. jenner. as between yourself and him, your association, what was your feeling? did he regard himself as compatible with you and you with him? mr. thornley. yes; definitely. i didn't get any idea that he was--i thought his education was about the same as my own which certainly isn't spectacular by any means. i thought he might have had a year of college. i knew he had--i figured he had graduated from high school. it never occurred to me to think any more about it. i did, as i mentioned before, notice once in a while that he had gaps in his knowledge, but many people do, in fact all of us do, i am sure, in some fields. but in oswald's case they perhaps had an unusual pattern to them or something that made me notice them, perhaps. perhaps he was better read, for example, on marxist economics than any other school of economics, things like this. but that was the extent of it. mr. jenner. was there in your kicking around with him in your discussions--was there ever any discussion of your past, of his past, his life? mr. thornley. none whatsoever. this i am almost certain of. i had no idea, for example, that he was from texas or where he was from. at that time i don't recall him having a texas accent, either. i had no idea that his father had died when he was young. i had no idea about his family, anything along this line and i don't think i ever discussed my past with him. mr. jenner. was any mention ever made of his attendance at or even the name of the albert schweitzer college? mr. thornley. no. mr. jenner. no discussions about any plans of his or possibility of his seeking further education of any kind or character when he was mustered out of the marines? mr. thornley. none whatsoever. for one thing we were not close enough friends to have any personal interests in each other. i looked upon him as somebody to argue with, another atheist--therefore, without the problem of religion between us--and to argue philosophy and politics about, and i think he looked upon me in about the same light. mr. jenner. what was your dexterity with marine weapons? mr. thornley. mine? mr. jenner. yes. mr. thornley. i was a sharpshooter. mr. jenner. what was his? mr. thornley. i believe--well, at that time i didn't know. mr. jenner. you didn't know. i want your viewpoint as of that time. while you were based at el toro, did the unit engage with any regularity in rifle practice? mr. thornley. none whatsoever. at that time, the whole time i was there, we did not engage in rifle practice. mr. jenner. as a matter of curiosity on my own part, why was that? mr. thornley. well, in the marine corps you are required once a year to go to the rifle range and qualify. i was not there an entire year. point no. , this was the marine air wing which has much less of an emphasis on, in general, on rifle practice because it is not going to be utilized in battle, and a much stronger emphasis, in the case of the outfit we were in, on our particular military occupational specialty. mr. jenner. which was? mr. thornley. aviation electronic operator. mr. jenner. was this true when you reached japan? mr. thornley. more so. when i reached japan, however, we did go to the rifle range one time shortly after i got there, and qualify. i recall at that time that in japan we weren't even having rifle inspections. there you could put your rifle away in your locker and forget about it, and take it out every couple of months and make sure it hadn't corroded away, and put it back again. mr. jenner. but you didn't even have rifle inspection? mr. thornley. once in a while we would have one, but not with any frequency whatsoever. mr. jenner. were you forewarned so that you could clean your rifle? mr. thornley. no; usually you were caught unawares, which was why you kept it clean in the locker. mr. jenner. i see. what are the grades of marksmanship? mr. thornley. marksman, sharpshooter, and expert. mr. jenner. marksman, sharpshooter, and expert. therefore, i gather from that that marksman was the basic grade. mr. thornley. yes. mr. jenner. a grade that every marine was expected to, and had to, attain that grade? mr. thornley. not had to attain, some didn't, and there was no particular penalty involved, except maybe something a little extracurricular when you were in boot camp. otherwise, you didn't wear a marksman's medal is all. you didn't have any qualification in the infantry; of course, it would be looked down upon in the case of promotion or something like that. in the air wing it had much slighter significance than that. maybe if you were being considered for a meritorious promotion and you hadn't qualified you wouldn't get it, but day to day it had no significance. mr. jenner. were the standards applied in the air wing with respect to qualifications for these three classes as severe or as high as the standards applied, let us say, in the marine infantry? mr. thornley. exactly the same; yes. mr. jenner. exactly the same. would you please state for me your concept of the degree of marksmanship for (a) marksman, (b) sharpshooter, (c) expert? mr. thornley. well, a marksman is an average shooter. a man, i think, could pick up a rifle and with a little commonsense and a minimum knowledge of the basics of marksmanship qualify as a marksman. when a man doesn't qualify as a marksman it is usually either because he is nervous on the day of qualification or he is gun shy or some outside influence confuses him; maybe he gets his windage off, something like this. sharpshooter is just a little above average. it ranges over about--a pretty wide field. but it is a man who--a sharpshooter would be a man, the average man, with a good, maybe a week of training on how to use a rifle, and some practice. whereas an expert is the kind of man i would hate to have on the other side in a war. he is accurate with his rifle up to and including yards in a number of different positions. hits the bull's-eye or close to the bull's-eye an overwhelming percentage of the time. mr. jenner. is that the category in which we would place that to which we refer generally as the sniper? mr. thornley. yes. well, any man might be assigned as a sniper, i imagine. but an expert rifleman would perform much better. mr. jenner. maybe be a superior sniper. mr. thornley. yes. definitely. mr. jenner. and to attain the position of expert marksman must there be considerable practice and use of the weapon or is it more of natural ability? mr. thornley. now, you enter in once again to natural ability, just as not qualifying might be caused by a lack of natural ability of some kind. an expert rifleman probably would have a much calmer nervous system or, you might say, a much greater degree of control. i would imagine training can make up for this. i know a couple of times i just missed expert by a few points. it seemed that i couldn't make expert. it seemed to me there was just something i didn't have in order to make expert. it was very frustrating. mr. jenner. you tried? mr. thornley. yes; it takes a great degree of control, primarily. of course, the other things like good eyesight and so on and so forth. mr. jenner. oh, yes. mr. thornley. yes. mr. jenner. did you ever discuss with oswald his degree of proficiency in the use of the rifle? mr. thornley. not to the best of my knowledge. mr. jenner. did you have any impressions that you gathered in that respect while you were with him at el toro? mr. thornley. none whatsoever. had somebody asked me to guess about oswald, i would have said, well, he probably didn't qualify, just because that was the type of guy he was, but that is all. mr. jenner. you would never have expected him to have been a sharpshooter, for example? mr. thornley. it wouldn't have greatly surprised me if he was and it wouldn't have greatly surprised me if he wasn't. this is something very difficult: to look at a man and tell, at least it is very difficult for me. i have seen some drill instructors who could do it. but to tell whether he is going to be an expert or a sharpshooter, marksman, i am not qualified. mr. jenner. while you were stationed with him at el toro, did you ever go off base with him? mr. thornley. no. mr. jenner. did you ever have any discussion of dates? mr. thornley. no. mr. jenner. his attitude toward women? mr. thornley. no. mr. jenner. sex? mr. thornley. none whatsoever. mr. jenner. was there any scuttlebutt around the camp in that regard with respect to him? mr. thornley. not to the best of my knowledge. mr. jenner. sex habits, propensities? mr. thornley. no; you stand a risk in the marine corps, if you are at all quiet and tend to be introverted, of being suspected of being homosexual, but to the best of my knowledge there were never any comments made of this nature. mr. jenner. do you recall some other readings of his in addition to " "? mr. thornley. i do recall having mentioned dostoievsky to him and i know he had read something and i think it was "crime and punishment" but i am not sure. it was something i had not read by dostoievsky when i had read about, i guess at that time, about three or four books. mr. jenner. it is a great book. mr. thornley. someday i am going to get around to it. mr. jenner. have you not read it yet? it is a really great book. mr. thornley. no; and i don't recall him mentioning any other books offhand. i don't--i can't think of a thing besides " " and some book by dostoievsky. mr. jenner. while you were based at el toro did he engage, did you notice, in any officer baiting on his part with respect, in particular, to such matters as foreign affairs? mr. thornley. yes; not on foreign affairs, no, but the same officer, lieutenant donovan, spoke of in a foreign affairs lecture in the newspapers, i do remember him baiting him on a couple of occasions. mr. jenner. oswald attempting to bait lieutenant donovan? mr. thornley. i don't remember what it was. i know, i believe lieutenant donovan was also a lieutenant which i had had a couple of run-ins with if i remember correctly. if not, it was lieutenant delprado. it was one of the two of them. mine were completely accidental and i went to great length to keep away from one of them because it seemed like any time i was around him i happened to do something to irritate him. but oswald, i don't recall exactly what he said, but he a couple or three times went out of his way to say something to one of these lieutenants that would cause them to be irritated and in this you can't really say that he was exceptional. it happened many times. in oswald's case though, it was exceptionally---- mr. jenner. you mean it happened many times with respect to other noncoms in the marines with respect to these officers? mr. thornley. right; but in oswald's case it seemed a little more deliberate. some guys would get mad and they would say something, or sometimes they would do something by accident, and they would get themselves involved and then they would decide, "well, what the hell," and push it all away. oswald it seemed didn't have to have any reason. he just told an officer to get lost. mr. jenner. he baited an officer for the pleasure of it? mr. thornley. yes; i might mention that this was one means by which he won the admiration of others in the outfit in that the junior officers especially are usually disliked, or were in that outfit, and this made him on such occasions as he engaged with an officer in some kind of officer baiting, this won the respect, for at least a few minutes, of the men--who would kind of laugh about it, and chuckle over it and tell others about it. perhaps this is why he did it. mr. jenner. you mentioned some slovenliness on his part; what about his quarters, his barracks; did you have occasion to observe them? mr. thornley. i don't think i was ever in his barracks. i do recall having been told that he had russian books and that is all i--that is the only connection i can make now in my mind with his quarters. i don't think i ever saw them. mr. jenner. you already have given us something of his view of the u.s. marine corps. would you give us a summary of that? give us your impression of his views with respect to the u.s. marine corps. mr. thornley. well, definitely the marine corps was not what he had expected it to be when he joined. also he felt that the officers and the staff nco's at the marine corps were incompetent to give him orders. mr. jenner. incompetent in what sense, they were below him intellectually? mr. thornley. they were below him intellectually--and for various other reasons in each case, too. maybe this officer was ignorant, as was brought out about foreign affairs, in oswald's mind, knew less than oswald did about it. i don't hold with the stand that oswald would study up on foreign affairs simply in order to bait the officer. i think it just happened to be that oswald would see that the officer was basing his foreign affairs maybe on time magazine when oswald had done a little more reading and i think he resented this time magazine approach to foreign affairs. mr. jenner. how did these discussions arise, mr. thornley, the discussion of foreign affairs by officers? mr. thornley. well, the officers, every so many weeks--this is mentioned somewhere in this pile of papers--every so many weeks a lieutenant is appointed to give a foreign affairs lecture or a current affairs lecture, pardon me, to the troops, at which time he explains the world situation in a half hour. i remember having one second lieutenant telling us about dalai lama or it was a first lieutenant and i forget what he told us, but it was something completely absurd. i think at that time the dalai lama had just disappeared or something, and one would get the impression, i think, that he thought the dalai lama was a leader in pakistan or something. mr. jenner. that is the impression the lieutenant tried to convey? mr. thornley. well, i think that was the impression the lieutenant had had when he had been assigned to give this lecture. the last minute, he got down and started going through the news magazines to get his information, got it somewhat inaccurately, and didn't particularly care whether it was accurate or not anyway. stood up in front of the troops and reeled off the lecture, and, of course, most of the enlisted men didn't know enough to criticize him either because they weren't that interested, and that was it--with a couple of people laughing up their sleeves, and this happened later, this didn't happen at the time i knew oswald. however, in such a situation oswald would have been careful i am sure to raise his hand and correct the lieutenant. mr. jenner. i was going to get to that. during the course of these lectures did the troops as you called them engage in discussion with the instructor? mr. thornley. they were permitted to ask questions, to raise their hands to ask questions. and oswald would have probably asked a question which would have made light of the lieutenant's ignorance. mr. jenner. put the lieutenant at a disadvantage? mr. thornley. yes. mr. jenner. were you present at any times when you were at el toro when the lectures occurred when, at that time oswald raised his hand and engaged in dissertation? mr. thornley. i might have been but i don't recall it if i was. i recall being present at several lectures at el toro, and it just might have happened. it was the kind of thing oswald would do and it wouldn't even have phased me. i probably wouldn't even have bothered to remember if it had happened. it would have been just part of the daily routine there so i would have---- mr. jenner. did you ever engage in that sort of thing? mr. thornley. no; i never had guts enough to stand up and tell an officer he didn't know what he was talking about. behind his back i might tell somebody that such-and-such officer didn't know what he was talking about, but i was never quite that brash--in that particular respect, anyway. mr. jenner. what were your impressions on oswald being interested in music? mr. thornley. not being interested in music myself particularly---- mr. jenner. i take it you had none; that is, any impressions as to his interests? mr. thornley. no, therefore, i had none; correct. mr. jenner. did you ever play chess with him? mr. thornley. no. mr. jenner. did you ever see him playing chess with anyone else? mr. thornley. just now you mentioned the word "chess" as a definite association; i think he did play chess. i can't place the person. this--there were some other people in the outfit who played chess. there is one name i have been trying to remember for a long time, and i think it starts with "win" something. "winter" something. i'm probably way off base there. but a tall blond corporal, i believe, played chess and a couple of other men in the outfit played chess. at that time, i guess at that, i knew how to play chess. i have never been particularly interested, though, in the game so i don't--i am pretty sure i didn't play chess with him. in fact, come to think of it i had just been cured of playing chess months before that; somebody beat me in about six moves and i stopped playing for about a year. it wasn't me. mr. jenner. while at el toro did oswald become engaged in any physical altercations with anybody? mr. thornley. no; definitely not to my knowledge. never got into any fights or even any hot personal argument over anything, that i know of. mr. jenner. what was your impression, if you had one then, as to his disposition in that regard? mr. thornley. i had the impression that he avoided violence. mr. jenner. while you were at el toro do you recall whether oswald ever went off the base on liberty? mr. thornley. as far as i know he didn't. mr. jenner. were there any discussions on the base as to what, if anything, oswald did? mr. thornley. not in my presence. mr. jenner. what, if anything, oswald had done off the base on liberty? mr. thornley. not in my presence. mr. jenner. was there ever any discussion of cuba and castro and that problem? mr. thornley. yes, sir. mr. jenner. all right; tell us all about that. mr. thornley. well, at that time i and oswald were both, and a couple of other men in the outfit, were quite sure that castro was a great hero. mr. jenner. why? mr. thornley. well, he was liberating cuba from batista and, of course, we had heard all about batista and what an evil man he was, which i am sure was true, and most of us had read some of the things written by castro, some of castro's promises--such as he would take no part in the government after the revolution, such things--so we had the definite impression--i remember there was one puerto rican boy, myself, oswald, a couple of others who had quite an admiration for castro, and thought the pro-communist statements he was or might be making at the time, were made simply to guarantee a little more independence for his island because it was located so close to the united states. in other words, i felt at the time he was playing both ends against the middle in order to go his own way, something like charles de gaulle is doing right now by recognizing red china. i felt it was purely statesmanship, statecraft, power politics. i didn't feel that castro was a dedicated communist. whether oswald did or not i don't know. he admired castro because of the social reforms castro was introducing. so did i at that time. delgado, the puerto rican boy, as i recall it, was becoming worried at that time because he was beginning to think maybe castro was communistic. i didn't think so. oswald, as far as i know, didn't have anything to say on that matter. and that is about all i can tell you. mr. jenner. well, you say that you admired castro and you knew oswald admired castro. tell us on what you base that comment. mr. thornley. well, once again as i remember, there was one of these afternoon discussions once again, and somebody was saying something, worried about castro, it might have been delgado, it might have been somebody else, i don't think it was delgado that day because i think he was defending castro, somebody said something against castro, and oswald said that he didn't think castro was so bad. he thought castro was good for cuba, and they said why, and i took up the argument, which was the argument i just gave you, the naive idea i had at the time that he was playing for independence, and oswald remained silent, shaking his head affirmatively a couple of times, and that was it. mr. jenner. shaking his head affirmatively with respect to the comments you were making? mr. thornley. yes; to my argument, to my justification of castro. mr. jenner. but you recall no provocative remarks that he made in that connection? mr. thornley. no. mr. jenner. did oswald have a nickname? mr. thornley. not that i know of except oz sometimes. mr. jenner. did you ever hear him referred to as "ozzie rabbit"? mr. thornley. well, yes; i didn't realize that anybody else referred to him as such but i always thought of him as such. he reminded me very much of a cartoon character at that time. it was kind of pathetic. there was something about this little smile of his, and his expression on his face and the shape of his head, just the general, his general appearance established a definite association in my mind with some warner bros. cartoon character, i believe warner bros. and i, very recently, in a discussion with someone, describing oswald mentioned that he reminded you of--i said: "i think there is a character called oswald rabbit who appears in movie cartoons." and they shook their head. now, i know where i got that particular example so i probably heard him referred to as "ozzie rabbit," though i don't recall specifically. mr. jenner. did he occasionally have a nickname or a reference made to him attendant upon his interest in the study of the russian language or his interest in communism or in russia or soviet---- mr. thornley. only he was sometimes called the communist and he would, sometimes i know--as far as his study of the russian language went he made no attempt to hide this. in fact, he made--would make attempts to show it off by speaking a little russian. mr. jenner. he was proud of that, was he? mr. thornley. yes; there was someone else in the outfit who spoke russian, don't ask me who, they used to exchange a few comments in the morning at muster and say hello to each other or something, and he also would make jokes in russian, not in russian, but in english, in a thick russian accent many times; this was very typical of him. mr. jenner. he resorted to that area and use of satire? mr. thornley. yes; until i had made the comment that implied he was a communist, i had no idea---- mr. jenner. that he was sensitive? mr. thornley. that he was sensitive about it because he didn't seem to be. mr. jenner. did he have any visitors? mr. thornley. not that i recall. mr. jenner. was there any discussion at anytime about the possibility of his going to russia? mr. thornley. no. mr. jenner. this was a complete surprise to you when you saw it in stars and stripes? mr. thornley. somebody would say to him, "why don't you go and live in russia," in the middle of an argument. mr. jenner. i didn't mean that in that sense but did he volunteer a statement on his part about his going to russia? mr. thornley. never anything; no. mr. jenner. i take it it was your opinion he was not a communist at the time he was assigned to el toro? mr. thornley. that was my opinion. mr. jenner. i take it you have never seen or talked with oswald subsequent to the time he left or you left for japan, from el toro? mr. thornley. no. mr. jenner. that is, my statement is correct. mr. thornley. yes, sir. mr. jenner. it follows, i take it, that you were never aware that he was in new orleans when you were there? mr. thornley. no; i wasn't. mr. jenner. you were not aware of his comings and goings other than the newspaper report that your folks sent you? mr. thornley. i was aware that he had come back from the soviet union and gone to dallas, and i know i at that time did think about going to see him in dallas for the book, to find out just why he did go to russia, to check it with my own theory. mr. jenner. i am going to get to that in due course. mr. thornley. but aside from knowing that he came back and went to live in dallas with a russian wife and a child i had no idea of his comings or goings. mr. jenner. at the time you had some notion of going to dallas to see him or fort worth, as the case might be, it was with respect to the book you have talked about you were then in the process of writing or fulminating about? mr. thornley. yes; it was practically--well, it was finished by that time but i was thinking about, i was definitely planning to rewrite it. i didn't know how soon, and i thought before i did rewrite it i would go talk to him and see what he could tell me about. there were a lot of gaps in the book, and in the book i was not able to explain how he got from the united states to russia and things like that. a lot of things i wanted to check out and i thought if i could get him to cooperate with me, perhaps not even in telling him i was writing the book, i could get the information i wanted. mr. jenner. and this was the state of mind you had after you had heard that he returned to the united states? mr. thornley. right. mr. jenner. which was june of , when he returned? mr. thornley. right, and i had finished the book in february. mr. jenner. of ? mr. thornley. . mr. jenner. . you were in mexico and mexico city in ? mr. thornley. yes. mr. jenner. cover that for us. what was the motivation, the length of the trip? mr. thornley. i will have to begin at the beginning on that. on april , my parents sent me a gift of $ on the condition that i spend it for a bus ticket to visit them that summer. which i did, and i left around--well, i arrived in california on may . i remember going along the border and seeing fireworks on the other side of the border. mr. jenner. what border? mr. thornley. from yuma to san diego. mr. jenner. mexican border? mr. thornley. that is cinco de mayo. i arrived in california on may and i stayed there until late august. now, i think in one of these reports that i gave to the fbi the information might be different. since then i have checked with notebooks that i kept of my activity, and i was on my way back to new orleans in late august. i went by way of mexico city because i have taken years of spanish in school and i never had the opportunity to live in an environment where i would have to use it, depend on it solely, and i wanted to see how i would do. i have always wanted to visit mexico, to see mexico city. i checked into the prices. i had found out i had enough money that i would be able to go down to mexico city and stay a short while. so i went down there for about a week, actually it was days i spent within mexico, from tijuana to mexico city, on a mexican bus, and then when my money began to run out from mexico city to matamoros or brownsville, tex., on a mexican bus. at this time, on my way up on a bus to matamoros, it was september , because i had that in my notes, i have some notes about the bus ride and the date september . and i went from brownsville to new orleans by way of either greyhound or continental. mr. jenner. when did you arrive in new orleans? mr. thornley. i went directly to new orleans, so i imagine i arrived in new orleans on september , possibly september . mr. jenner. so that between approximately may , , and september and ---- mr. thornley. say may to september . mr. jenner. you were not in new orleans? mr. thornley. right. mr. jenner. you were returning to your home in california? you stayed there for approximately a month or so? mr. thornley. longer than that. mr. jenner. longer than that. you then went to mexico, mexico city, and you then returned directly to new orleans? mr. thornley. yes, sir. mr. jenner. during none of that period of time did you have any contact with or hear anything about oswald? mr. thornley. definitely not. mr. jenner. you at one time at least were acquainted with a lady by the name of sylvia bortin? mr. thornley. sylvia bortin? mr. jenner. b-o-r-t-i-n. mr. thornley. yes; this young lady, by the way---- mr. jenner. where did she reside? mr. thornley. in whittier, calif., or at least last summer she did, i don't know where she resides now. this young lady, by the way, was mentioned in--her mention in this whole matter came out of a misunderstanding on my part of a question asked by the fbi agents. mr. jenner. all right. would you explain that, please? mr. thornley. i don't recall what the question was--oh, yes, he had asked me something about, i believe it was the first unitarian church in los angeles. i had mentioned earlier at the time i was talking to oswald, and knew oswald, i had been going to the first unitarian church in los angeles. this is a group of quite far to the left people politically for the most part, and mentioned in order to explain my political relationship with oswald, at that moment, and he began to ask me questions about the first unitarian church and i answered, and then he realized or understood or asked what oswald's connection with the first unitarian church was and i explained to him that there was none. miss bortin never knew oswald and vice versa, and these people were two different parts of my life. there was this civilian compartment and the military compartment, and i never intermingled them. mr. jenner. this young lady married and her husband is now in havana, cuba? mr. thornley. that is what she told me last summer; yes. he was going to school in cuba. mr. jenner. i take it this had nothing to do with yourself and oswald's views with respect to castro that you told us about. mr. thornley. no; this happened, i think, later, in fact i am sure it happened later. at that time miss bortin, she was then unmarried, did not know robert uname, i believe. i met him, i believe, september a year later. mr. jenner. had you finished that? mr. thornley. yes. mr. jenner. i take it that oswald had no close personal friends at least that you observed? mr. thornley. that is correct. and the name of his closest friends i do not know. i do remember he had a close acquaintance that he seemed to get along with pretty well. mr. jenner. in the unit? mr. thornley. yes; but i don't recall this man's name. if it was mentioned to me, i probably could, but---- mr. jenner. you were groping for it when you were interviewed. you suggested it might be charles---- mr. thornley. i mentioned a charles. mr. jenner. weis. mr. thornley. weir, but that was not the man. this was a friend of a friend of the friend or a man who could give them that information perhaps that i couldn't. at this time perhaps, also, i was thinking of a possibility it might have been weir and since then i have remembered definitely who weir was. mr. jenner. who was he? mr. thornley. i don't remember whether his first name was charles but i remember who he was. mr. jenner. he was a noncom? mr. thornley. there was a man named cooley. there was somebody else, and these are my associations, but who it was who used to talk russian in the ranks with oswald in the morning i don't know, but that is who it was. mr. jenner. is this particular man you now mentioned the man who occasionally talked russian with oswald in the ranks, is he the man who you had in mind? mr. thornley. yes. mr. jenner. as having been a friend of oswald's? mr. thornley. yes; in that in the same respect that i was a friend of oswald's. once, again, the exact terminology i would use would be close acquaintance. mr. jenner. yes; i would say from your description of the relationship with oswald that it was more an acquaintanceship than a friendship. mr. thornley. i think it was probably the same with this person from what i recall, to my knowledge. mr. jenner. in other words, when you say friend, he wasn't a buddy of oswald? mr. thornley. no; oswald was not the type of person who had, as it has been emphasized on all parts, i think, and it confirms my own impression, was not the type of person who made close friends or who stuck with close friends. mr. jenner. you saw no instance in which oswald evidenced affection for anybody, i mean in the nice sense of the word? mr. thornley. no; none whatsoever. mr. jenner. or anybody evidenced any affection in the nice sense of the word for him? mr. thornley. no. mr. jenner. i take it your trip to mexico city was purely one of general interest as you have described and had nothing to do with any interest on your part in going to cuba or attempting to go to cuba? mr. thornley. believe me, no. i have no desire to go to cuba unless i am going to take a rifle and be on an invasion force or something. mr. jenner. did you hear of anybody in the marine corps, whose last name was hidell? mr. thornley. at the time this name was mentioned to me that was--that person, whoever it was that oswald used to speak to in the ranks in the morning came to my mind. but i can't say that that was the name, and i am--of course, now, i am very leery that that--very uncertain as to ever having heard the name hidell, and i doubt it very much. mr. jenner. shortly after the unfortunate occurrence of november , , you were interviewed by secret service agents, were you not? mr. thornley. yes. now, this is what i had mentioned earlier. this was the monday interview, of november , actually it was midnight sunday night as i recall. it seemed to me a couple of days later before i spoke to the fbi. i believe there was a mr. rice--was one of the men. mr. jenner. this was the evening of the d of november? mr. thornley. was it the d? mr. jenner. it probably ran over. mr. thornley. it must have been saturday evening then. i had thought it was sunday evening. mr. jenner. in any event you were then interviewed by some newspaper reporters? mr. thornley. yes; that was quite some time afterward. mr. jenner. well, it was before november , , was it not? mr. thornley. it was after the th, i think. it was after i had finished talking to the fbi, as i remember. mr. jenner. i will mark as thornley's exhibit no. what purports to be a xerox reprint of a newspaper article. (the document referred to was marked thornley exhibit no. for identification.) mr. jenner. are you acquainted with that? mr. thornley. yes, sir. mr. jenner. what newspaper was this from? mr. thornley. the states-item of new orleans. mr. jenner. and that article was a result of the newspaperman's interview with you? mr. thornley. yes, sir. mr. jenner. did you see it upon its publication? mr. thornley. yes, sir. mr. jenner. you are familiar with it? mr. thornley. yes, sir. mr. jenner. does it substantially accurately reflect at least portions of, in reasonable context, the interview you had with the newspaper reporter? mr. thornley. yes; to a surprising degree for a newspaper, on the basis of my past experience in dealings with them. mr. jenner. is there anything in that article that you regard as reasonably seriously erroneous? mr. thornley. not when i read it the last time. mr. jenner. insofar as it attributes anything to you? mr. thornley. may i reread it? mr. jenner. yes. mr. thornley. i would say this is accurate in everything it attributes to me. mr. jenner. all right. i offer thornley exhibit no. in evidence. now, it appears from that article and from the testimony you have given this morning that you were stimulated, or, as you have indicated you prepared at least a first draft of a book or pamphlet or article respecting your experiences in the marine corps, and one of the central characters of which, mythical or otherwise, was a friend, oswald. mr. thornley. that is correct. mr. jenner. and when i spoke to you by telephone the other day i inquired of you as to whether that was still in existence and you responded that it was. mr. thornley. yes. mr. jenner. and you were kind enough to say you would bring it with you. mr. thornley. yes. mr. jenner. have you done so? mr. thornley. yes. mr. jenner. may i see it, please? mr. thornley. yes, sir; here is the draft completed in february of . mr. jenner. yes; i am interested in seeing that in its condition as of that time. mr. thornley. right. that is it. there is only one addition and there is some blank paper on top. there is one addition, and that is the short preface written yesterday to give some idea of how much was fact and how much was fiction. mr. jenner. all right--the page numbered ? mr. thornley. there was a table of contents once and it took two pages. mr. jenner. which i might identify in addition thereto as having the word "preface," at its top and your name and the date may , , arlington, va., at the bottom. that is what you prepared yesterday, is that correct? mr. thornley. correct. mr. jenner. all of the balance, therefore, commencing with the pages numbered and running through, i assume, consecutively? mr. thornley. yes. mr. jenner. to page is the article as it was when you completed it in february ? mr. thornley. precisely. mr. jenner. i would like the opportunity of reading through this and, of course, -odd pages, we don't have the time to do it as of the moment, and the commission would like to have it among its records. may i have the material and i will take it in the back room. we have a xerox, and have it duplicated? this, i appreciate, is your personal property and it is of value. it is not something that the commission will place in the hands of others who may make commercial use of it. mr. thornley. i am quite sure that it will be perfectly safe. mr. jenner. all right. it is in the same condition now, that is, pages through , as those pages were when you completed this manuscript in february ? mr. thornley. yes; there might have been a couple of spelling errors corrected since then or typographical errors but that is all. mr. jenner. and that article of which we now speak and which for purposes of identification i will mark as thornley exhibit no. , and i offer thornley exhibit no. in evidence. (the document referred to was marked thornley exhibit no. for identification.) mr. jenner. subsequently thereto, i understand from my conversation with you, you prepared a revision of that paper. mr. thornley. i have been working on a revision. mr. jenner. and you were kind enough to say you would bring that along with you as well. have you done so? mr. thornley. i have been between this draft---- mr. jenner. when you said "this draft" you are referring to thornley exhibit no. ? mr. thornley. exhibit no. , and the draft i am now giving you--several illegible drafts were made. this represents not the latest draft, but the latest typewritten draft. it represents a fragment of it. the first third, almost the first third, minus a couple of pages of a novelette based upon this exhibit no. . mr. jenner. for purposes of identification the witness has now handed me a set of letter-sized pages numbered through , consecutively. are they consecutive? mr. thornley. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and i take it, as against the length of the other paper, that these pages through , represent an incomplete novel. mr. thornley. yes. mr. jenner. that is it covers only a portion of the areas and times covered by thornley exhibit no. . mr. thornley. this ones takes a completely different approach in that this did not take a chronological approach to the development of the character based on oswald, but takes a flashback approach. mr. jenner. i see. mr. thornley. centering around an investigation of that character after his defection to the soviet union. mr. jenner. for further identification of the document which i will mark thornley exhibit no. , page is entitled "chapter , gung ho." page is entitled "chapter , fallen comrade." page , in the center, is entitled "chapter , hush hush." page is entitled "chapter , blue marines." page , in the upper portion, is entitled "chapter , peace gospel." page is entitled, at the head, "chapter , the killer." page , near the center, is entitled "chapter , captain kidd." page , at the bottom, "chapter , mutiny." page , "chapter , john henry." page , "chapter , the storms." and page , "chapter , the chicken." (the document referred to was marked thornley exhibit no. for identification.) mr. thornley. now, this exhibit no. is a much greater fictionalized approach toward, well, as far as reference goes to oswald, the character upon--the character which is based upon oswald in exhibit no. , johnny shellburn, exhibit no. is much farther from life. mr. jenner. is johnny shellburn assimilated to oswald? mr. thornley. yes; much more so in exhibit no. , though, than in this one. mr. jenner. that is exhibit no. . mr. thornley. yes; since i wrote exhibit no. , i have learned to write fiction rather than a thinly disguised biography. mr. jenner. in other words, exhibit no. was primarily a biography? mr. thornley. not in the strict sense that it portrayed a man's life in detail, but in the sense that any reference, most of the references, as is explained in this preface toward the end of the book---- mr. jenner. when you say this preface, you mean the preface to exhibit no. ? mr. thornley. that is, johnny shellburn toward the end of the book, well, from before the middle of the book on, extends more and more to reflect oswald's character, and i definitely was thinking about lee harvey oswald when i wrote this book, exhibit no. , whereas---- mr. jenner. in your discussion refer to them by exhibit number. mr. thornley. i will keep my hands below the table. mr. jenner. you don't have to do that. just use the exhibit numbers. mr. thornley. whereas in exhibit no. , i have universalized it more, tried to get away from giving any impression that i am making a chronology of the life and times of lee harvey oswald, which is something i thought would be relevant as far as the commission would be concerned in reading the material. mr. jenner. would you mark exhibit no. accordingly, mr. reporter? i offer in evidence thornley exhibit no. . i take it, mr. thornley, that you commenced the preparation of exhibit no. subsequently to the assassination of president john fitzgerald kennedy. mr. thornley. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and that exhibit no. reflects a course of events and their imprint upon you that occurred on and after november , . mr. thornley. no, no; exhibit no. reflects the same course of events reflected in exhibit no. . as far as the telling of the story goes and the characters therein it takes place back in . it makes a definite attempt, however, to get away from oswald as a specific character and to discuss the problem of disillusionment in the peacetime military or disillusionment with values on a much more universalized range than exhibit no. . mr. jenner. all right. may i make a copy of exhibit no. ? mr. thornley. yes. mr. jenner. under the same circumstances and upon the same conditions as you granted your consent to make a copy of exhibit no. ? mr. thornley. yes, sir; exhibit no. also does include some things on--that i have acquired through the news on oswald since the assassination because oswald tends to reflect the type of person i was talking about. so to put it, to make it as clear as possible, right now i realize i am saying exhibit no. is more like oswald and less like oswald, to put it as clearly as possible. mr. jenner. you are going in two directions at once. mr. thornley. exhibit no. is more like the oswald i knew in macs , the oswald of my experience, whereas exhibit no. is a universalized oswaldian-type character based upon not only my own experience but the news that has come to me about oswald, about other people like oswald, other defectors, other assassins, and so on and so forth, since november . mr. jenner. all right. now, mr. thornley, tell me something about kerry thornley. you obviously, to me, are not a doorman. mr. thornley. oh, yes; i am a doorman. mr. jenner. you are at the moment performing that service. but that isn't your objective in life. mr. thornley. my objective is to write books, novels primarily, as many as i can in the years that are given to me, and possibly upon publication of one of them to go back to school to further my ability to write. mr. jenner. are you taking any training in that respect or have you in recent years? mr. thornley. well, not formally. i have devoted myself to a lot of exercises in writing, and i have availed myself of the help of any experts i could grab onto, including successful novelists and former newspaper reporters and so on and so forth, to help me solve problems in my writing and improve it, but there is really, to my mind, my outlook on writing a novel; for example, there is not much you can learn from a formal course in writing. i think you can learn much more from, say, the study of linguistics or semantics; if you are going to learn anything from a university, for example, on writing, and this i intend to do in due time. mr. jenner. we occasionally have been off the record, not often, and i have talked with you on the telephone. is there anything that was said between us in the course of our telephone conversations or in any off-the-record discussions that you think is pertinent to the commission's assignment of investigating the assassination of president kennedy that i have failed to bring onto the record? mr. thornley. no, sir; i think we have very thoroughly covered it. mr. jenner. is there anything that occurs to you that you would like to add that you think might be pertinent to our inquiry and of help to the commission? mr. thornley. no; there is certainly nothing else i can think of. mr. jenner. your deposition will be written up rather promptly. we probably will have it tomorrow, and would you be good enough to call me, say--when do you go on duty? mr. thornley. at o'clock. mr. jenner. call me in the forenoon--i mean right after lunch--and if it is convenient will you come in and read over your deposition and sign it? mr. thornley. all right. may i just, to make absolutely sure, may i take down your phone number once more? affidavit of george b. church, jr. the following affidavit was executed by george b. church, jr. on june , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy state of florida, _county of hillsborough, ss_: i, george b. church, jr., sunset drive, tampa , florida, being duly sworn say: . i am a retired lieutenant colonel in the united states army and am now a junior high school teacher in tampa. i am attending the university of florida this summer. . my wife and i travelled to europe on the s.s. marion lykes which departed new orleans, louisiana for lehavre, france, on or about september , . this vessel was a freighter with accommodations for passengers assigned two to a room. on this particular trip, there were but four passengers aboard. one of them was lee harvey oswald, who shared a state room with an individual named billy joe lord. the trip from new orleans, louisiana, terminated at lehavre, france. the entire trip was approximately days. . before this trip, i had never before seen nor heard of lee harvey oswald. . all of the passengers ate at one table; however, lee harvey oswald missed quite a few meals because he was seasick much of the time. furthermore, there was no fixed schedule for meals. when we did have meals with oswald, he sat cater-cornered from me. however, oswald was rather withdrawn, and thus i did not converse with him a great deal. oswald did state during our discussion of our destinations, that he was going to attend a university in switzerland. oswald did not give the name of the university and did not indicate that he had a clear cut schedule as to his course of study. . i recall having discussed with oswald the depression of the 's. oswald appeared quite bitter as to the hard time his mother had suffered during this period. i tried to point out to oswald that i had lived through and survived the depression and that millions of people in the united states also had suffered during those years. this, however, made no impression on oswald. . oswald spent much of the time by himself. he did not participate in any of the social activities, nor in any conversation. he did mention his service in the marine corps, and he stated that he did not like the military service. generally oswald was not friendly, and he did not make much of an impression on me since i was not particularly interested in him. . the ship had a receiver in the ward room which was off and on during the voyage. i did listen to it occasionally, and i did understand german. i do not know if oswald listened to the receiver or not, and i have no idea as to his knowledge of any foreign language. . oswald did not indicate that he was going to go to russia. . after the trip i never saw nor heard from lee harvey oswald again. signed this th day of june . (s) george b. church, jr., george b. church, jr. affidavit of mrs. george b. church, jr. the following affidavit was executed by mrs. george b. church, jr., on june , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy state of florida, _county of hillsborough, ss_: i, mrs. george b. church, jr., being duly sworn say: . i live at sunset drive, tampa , florida. i travelled to europe on the s.s. marion lykes which departed new orleans, louisiana for lehavre, france, on or about september , . . i recall that besides my husband, there were two other passengers: lee harvey oswald and bill lord. my husband and i sat at the same table with oswald for meals, but outside of meals, we did not have much contact with him. while i had endeavored to get acquainted with lee harvey oswald, he did not enter into friendly conversation. he stayed to himself, and i considered him peculiar. . oswald indicated that the purpose of the trip was to attend a university in switzerland, but he evaded giving the name of the university and, he did not indicate any clear cut or positive courses of study other than a statement to the effect that he might study philosophy or psychology. his attitude seemed to be one of resentment. his roommate, bill lord, was going to attend a university in france and was studying french during the trip. lord was quite exuberant about his course of study and purpose of life, in contrast to the attitude of lee harvey oswald. . i do not recall oswald doing any reading. however, i gave him a book which he never returned. . upon completion of the voyage aboard the s.s. marion lykes, i obtained the address of bill lord for the purpose of perhaps later writing him or sending him christmas cards. i also requested oswald's address and he questioned the purpose of my request. he later reluctantly furnished his home address as, c/o mrs. m. oswald, west fifth street, fort worth, texas. i wrote this in my address book. . at no time did lee harvey oswald indicate that he was actually planning or attempting to defect or go to russia. there was no indication that oswald had any communist leanings. i did notice that oswald spoke with the chief engineer who was then aboard the s.s. marion lykes. the chief engineer indicated to me that he felt that oswald was a smart boy. . this was the last i ever saw or heard from lee harvey oswald. signed this th day of june . (s) mrs. george b. church, jr., mrs. george b. church, jr. affidavit of billy joe lord the following affidavit was executed by billy joe lord on june , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy state of texas, _county of travis, ss_: i, billy joe lord, being duly sworn say: . i am an airman third class in the united states air force, and i am in the th bomb wing, combat defense squadron at bergstrom air force base, texas. i am years old and my parents live at midland, texas. . after graduating from midland high school in , with the financial assistance of my parents, i made plans to continue my education in france. during august, , i made an application for a passport, and on or about september , , i departed midland, texas via train for new orleans, louisiana, arriving there about september , . i spent the next three days touring the city of new orleans and making several trips to the ticket office of the lykes lines. the cost of passage aboard the ship s.s. marion lykes amounted to slightly more than $ . i registered and stayed in the lasalle hotel on canal street, which was near the city library. i visited the library several times during this stay in the city. during this period i did not know lee harvey oswald. . on september , , i boarded the freighter s.s. marion lykes at new orleans. upon boarding the ship, i was shown to my room, and when i got there, lee harvey oswald was already there and moving in. we were to share this room. i had never before seen nor heard of lee harvey oswald. lee harvey oswald and i shared this cabin for the duration of the trip to france which was fourteen days. . in our first conversation, oswald said that he was recently discharged from the marines and that he had worked in some technical field while in the marines. he indicated that he was somewhat bitter about the fact that his mother had to work in a drugstore in fort worth, texas, and was having a difficult time. he also said that he would probably return to the united states to work. he gave no indication of his ultimate destination, although he said he was going to travel around in europe and possibly attend school in switzerland if he had sufficient funds. also in this first conversation, we discussed religion. i do not know why we discussed religion except that possibly he noticed that i had a bible. oswald maintained that he could not see how i could believe in god in view of the fact that science had disproved the existence of god, and that there was only matter. . after the first day, i hardly conversed with oswald at all. oswald was not outgoing and neither was i. we just were not very friendly. . besides oswald and myself, there were two other passengers aboard the ship. they were a retired u.s. army colonel and his wife, colonel and mrs. george b. church, jr. all four of the passengers generally ate their meals together in the ships officer's mess. oswald ate most of his meals with us. i do not recall colonel church and his wife associating very much with lee harvey oswald. . i shared a closet with oswald, but i did not notice anything out of the ordinary among oswald's possessions. he did show me either his military identification card or his passport. . oswald did not indicate that he might defect to russia. to the best of my knowledge, oswald did not receive any correspondence or communications while aboard the ship, nor did he associate with any of the ship's crew. oswald never mentioned any contacts or friends in europe. . lee harvey oswald appeared to be a normal, healthy individual, mentally alert, but extremely cynical in his general attitude. on october , , our ship arrived in france, and i disembarked from the ship. i never saw or heard from him again. it is my recollection that he departed from the ship subsequent to my departure. i had written my mother about all the passengers. when oswald defected, she sent me a newspaper clipping about it. . oswald spent a great deal of his time during the trip on the deck. i do not recall him doing any reading. i do recall, however, that there was a radio speaker which received programs from europe and that oswald and colonel church seemed to understand a little bit of the foreign language that came over on the speaker. i thought it was german, but i am not sure. . i attended the institute of french studies at the city of tours, province of touraine, france, from october, to february, intermittently while auditing courses at the university of poitires, tours, france, and at the sorbonne, university of paris, france. i returned to the united states aboard the french ship, liberty, in june, . i went to france again in february of for further education, and returned to the united states in february of . signed this th day of june . (s) billy joe lord, billy joe lord. affidavit of alexander kleinlerer the following affidavit was executed by alexander kleinlerer on june , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy state of texas, _county of tarrant, ss_: alexander kleinlerer of kent street, fort worth, texas, being duly sworn, says: . my name is alexander kleinlerer and i do now reside and for several years last pass have resided at the above address. . i am and have for several years been a foreign representative of loma industries, a plastics production company, located at west pafford street, fort worth, texas. i am years of age and single. i was born in poland of polish parents both of whom died in german concentration camps during world war ii. during the war i lost all members of my family, not only my immediate family, but my relatives as well, other than a sister in paris, france who is still alive and a cousin who once resided in russia but who now lives in poland. the area in poland in which i and my family and relatives resided was overrun by the german army. i was confined in buchenwald concentration camp until when i was liberated by general patton's forces. i immediately moved to czechoslovakia and then to france. in may of , i journeyed from france to the united states and found employment with loma industries. i returned to france as a foreign representative for that company in november of and remained there until june of when i returned to the united states. in due course thereafter i became a naturalized citizen of the united states in may . . i speak a number of european languages well. as a result i have become acquainted with numerous foreign language speaking individuals in the fort worth-dallas area. these include, insofar as the oswald incident is concerned, anna meller, george bouhe, mr. and mrs. george demohrenschildt, mr. and mrs. max clark, mrs. elena hall, lydia dymitruk, mr. and mrs. declan p. ford and mr. and mrs. igor vladimir voshinin. . during , i was enamoured of and was courting mrs. elena hall who was then divorced from her husband john. i first become acquainted with lee harvey and marina oswald on a sunday morning in the fore part of september . i was working in mrs. hall's garage at trail lake drive, fort worth, texas, building wooden baffles for stereo speakers. george bouhe, a valued friend of mine, drove up in his automobile accompanied by oswald, marina and their infant child. i was introduced to oswald and to marina. oswald somewhat stiffly acknowledged the introduction but was laconic and uncommunicative thereafter. they had come to inquire of mrs. hall about dental problems of marina's. i have a fairly distinct recollection that mrs. anna meller also accompanied the group on this occasion. mrs. hall is a dental technician employed by the patterson dental laboratory in fort worth. the group was seeking mrs. hall's help as to where a low cost dentist or clinic could be found where they might take marina for dental care, having in mind that the oswalds were in straitened financial circumstances. i do not recall what the result of this conversation was in that connection as i did not accompany the group when they went into mrs. hall's home. . thereafter during september, while the oswalds still resided on mercedes street near the montgomery ward store, i visited there with mrs. hall on two occasions. the reason for the earliest of these additional occasions was that mrs. hall and george bouhe had asked me to inquire among the girls in my office for dresses and other wearing apparel for marina. i collected some sweaters, skirts and a dress or two. mrs. hall also inquired among her friends and collected some things. we put these together in one package and mrs. hall and i drove to the oswald apartment on mercedes street to deliver the package. we were shocked to find that the oswald child had no baby crib or bed but was kept on the floor in the bedroom either in a suitcase or between two suitcases. . within a few days we returned to the oswalds with a baby bed that mrs. hall had obtained from some friend. we purchased a mattress for the baby bed and delivered these items to the oswalds at the mercedes street apartment. . there was another occasion when i was at the mercedes street apartment. george bouhe had called me and asked me to meet him there. this had nothing to do with the oswalds. george bouhe and i are good friends and he was calling to say that he was going to be in fort worth at the oswalds and asked me to drop by so we could have a friendly visit. on this occasion i saw the oswalds briefly. i recall that anna meller came with george bouhe and there was an older lady whose name i do not now recall. i remember that oswald and marina were seated at the dining table eating. we were sitting there talking with mr. george bouhe when suddenly oswald noticed there was no butter on the table. he rose red faced and angry and in our presence rudely and in a domineering and overbearing manner, and as though marina was a mere chattel, proceeded to vigourously reprimand her. it was like a sergeant bullying a new recruit. we were all embarrassed and shocked. . mrs. hall was injured in an automobile accident in fort worth the evening of october , . marina and the child were residing in mrs. hall's home at this time. they had come to mrs. hall's home earlier in the month because oswald had, we understood, lost his job and it had been agreed among mrs. hall, george bouhe and the others that oswald would go to dallas to seek employment and marina would stay with mrs. hall. mrs. hall was released from the hospital in the latter part of october, i think around october th. she spent a few days at home and on october , , a date which i have checked from a receipt that i have, she left fort worth for garden city, new york, to visit with friends. while away on this trip she was reunited with and remarried her former husband john hall. my recollection is that they returned to fort worth about the th or th of november , and in any event by the th. while mrs. hall was in the hospital and while she was visiting in new york, i frequently called at the hall home during my lunch period (usually about : p.m.), at the request of mrs. hall, to inquire of marina's needs and her welfare and to see that matters about the house were all right. i reported regularly to mrs. hall what my impressions were. . during the periods mrs. hall was in the hospital and later in new york, oswald came to the hall home on several occasions on friday night and stayed until late sunday afternoon or early sunday evening when he returned by bus to dallas. mrs. hall's home is approximately to miles from the business district of fort worth, and it is approximately to miles from the fort worth business district to the business district of dallas. a trip from mrs. hall's home to dallas involves in travel some or more miles. . i distinctly recall the occasion upon which and the circumstances under which marina left mrs. hall's and was taken by oswald and george demohrenschildt's daughter alexandra and her husband gary taylor to dallas to live. it was on a sunday while mrs. hall was in new york. my recollection is that it was in the fore part of november on the sunday preceding the return of mr. and mrs. hall from new york. on the preceding friday evening the phone rang in my apartment. it was marina. she said that she was going to leave the halls and go to dallas to live with oswald. at this point oswald interrupted and spoke on the telephone saying to me in a commanding way that they were going to move into dallas that coming week-end and he directed me to come by the next day. i came by the halls the next day, which was saturday, in the morning. marina and oswald were there. i entered the house. marina was in the living room with her child in her arms. we had just begun to discuss the matter of moving the next day when oswald observed that the zipper on marina's skirt was not completely closed. he called to her in a very angry and commanding tone of voice just like an officer commanding a soldier. his exact words were, "come here!", in the russian language, and he uttered them the way you would call a dog with which you were displeased in order to inflict punishment on him. he was standing in the doorway leading from the living room into another room of the house. when she reached the doorway he rudely reprimanded her in a flat imperious voice about being careless in her dress and slapped her hard in the face twice. marina still had the baby in her arms. her face was red and tears came to her eyes. all this took place in my presence. i was very much embarrassed and also angry but i had long been afraid of oswald and i did not say anything. . the arrangements for moving the following day were discussed. i was to be there to supervise the removal of the oswald paraphernalia and to lock up the hall residence. . when i arrived at the hall's residence on that sunday morning, marina and george demohrenschildt's daughter, alexandra taylor, were there. oswald and gary taylor, the husband of alexandra, george demohrenschildt's daughter, were off somewhere in fort worth seeking to rent a "u-haul-it" automobile trailer into which the oswald paraphernalia was to be placed. most of the oswald goods that had been stored in mrs. hall's garage and which had been in her home were already packed in preparation for placing in the "u-haul-it" trailer. oswald and gary taylor returned in due course, in taylor's automobile with the trailer hooked on behind. taylor among other occupations, was a taxi driver in dallas at this time. . i had met both alexandra and gary taylor at the hall's on a prior occasion. this was a weekday evening after mrs. hall returned from the hospital. they had been eating dinner at mrs. hall's home. i came to visit mrs. hall and was surprised to see them all at the table. of course i left immediately since i hadn't been invited to the dinner. the taylors brought oswald with them in taylor's car so that oswald could visit marina. . i supervised the placing of the oswald goods and wearing apparel in the "u-haul-it" trailer. there were several instances in which i had to intervene when oswald picked up some of mrs. hall's things to place in the trailer. i could not say whether this was deliberate or inadvertent, except that there were several instances. my recollection is that oswald and taylor had obtained the trailer at a service station in fort worth. it seems to me it was a place somewhere on barry street. in due course the loading was completed. they got into taylor's automobile and drove off. i understood from the telephone conversation on friday night and my visit with the oswalds at the halls on saturday, and the conversations that took place on sunday, that the oswalds were moving into an apartment in dallas which oswald had very recently rented. this was the last time i ever saw either of the oswalds or had any contact with them. i had arrived at mrs. hall's around : p.m. and they departed around : p.m. . i recall that while marina was staying at the halls, and either before mrs. hall went to the hospital, or during the four or five days she was at home before departing for new york, that oswald telephoned to speak with marina. this was on a saturday evening. . i recall the time that oswald reported he had lost his job at leslie welding company. it was the first week-end in october . my recollection is that it was agreed that marina would come to mrs. hall's house to stay while oswald looked for a job in dallas. i am uncertain whether marina was brought directly to the halls from the mercedes street apartment. there may have been something about marina being taken to the taylors' apartment in dallas for a few days so that she could have some dental care at the baylor university clinic in dallas. i do recall clearly that mrs. hall had a pickup truck which was owned by the dental laboratory where she was employed. mrs. hall had permission to drive to and from work with the pickup truck. it was agreed that the oswald household goods and other paraphernalia would be moved to the halls in the pickup truck. it may well be that marina went directly to the taylors; that the oswald household goods and paraphernalia was taken to the halls; and that marina came to the halls when her dental care at baylor clinic was completed. i understand marina's appointments were on october th, th and th. it is my recollection, however, that the oswald goods were packed in the trailer by john hall and mrs. hall and were taken to the halls. it may be that oswald helped. my impression is that this was done on a monday, but since, as i have now been advised, oswald apparently worked at leslie welding company on monday, october th, that the transfer of the oswald goods did not take place until monday night after oswald returned from his last working day at leslie welding company. it was at mrs. hall's invitation that marina went to live at mrs. hall's house. . in any event, i recall that nothing was heard from oswald for a number of days after marina came to mrs. halls to live. i assumed he was in dallas, and knowing that the distance between dallas and mrs. hall's home in fort worth was great, i thought relatively nothing of this, except that i thought that he should have telephoned. . on a good many of the occasions that i dropped by the hall residence during my luncheon hour, i found that marina had not yet awakened. i would have to arouse her by ringing the door bell and banging on the front door. i would find the household unkept, unwashed dishes in the sink or on the eating table, and her's and the baby's clothing strewn about the room. marina would come to the door in a wrap-around, her hair disheveled and her eyes heavy with the effect of many hours of sleep. she would make some excuses about sleeping late. on other occasions i was frequently in the hall home when mrs. hall was home in the evenings and on weekends. i noticed that marina did nothing to help mrs. hall in the house. mrs. hall often complained to me that marina was lazy, that she slept until noon or thereabouts, and would not do anything around the house to help. i observed on many occasions that marina was not neat and that she often dressed rather haphazardly. . i was concerned and suspicious about oswald from the outset. i could not understand how he had been able to go to russia and return with seeming ease, especially since he had attempted to defect and because i was aware that my cousin had not been able to get his wife and child out of russia although he now lives in poland. also, i was alarmed from the outset by oswald's talk. other friends told me he frequently compared conditions here in america with those in russia to the detriment of america and he did this in a way that was contemptuous of america. they said he would repeatedly say that there was no unemployment in russia but that there was a lot of it in america; that capitalists in america lived off the workers. they said he argued that in russia medical attention and care was at hand and was free, whereas in america you either had to pay doctors or hospitals or that even in clinics you always had to pay something. . i saw magazines about russia in the oswald apartment on mercedes street. some were in the russian language and some were in english. there were also newspapers in the russian language. . i have always been very grateful to america. americans have been very kind to me and i think a good deal of this country. it upset me when oswald would say things against the united states. i did not argue with him because he appeared to me to be dangerous in his mind and i was frightened. i once said to him that, unlike him, i had come to this country for freedom and not to look for trouble by criticizing the united states; that while i did not have much money, i did have freedom and opportunity and americans were kind to me. . i and mrs. hall, mrs. meller, george bouhe, and the others were disturbed that oswald flatly declined to make any effort to teach marina english. he said he wanted to keep his russian sharpened up. we thought this was very selfish of him. he would speak to other members of our group in russian. i refused to discuss anything with him in russian. i told him that if he wanted to talk with me he would have to talk to me in english; that he was born and raised in this country and his national tongue was english and he should be proud to speak english. i never answered him at any time in russian. i thought at times he was bent on making marina dissatisfied with the united states and also that he did not want her to have friends. . he treated marina very poorly. he belittled her and was boorish to her in our presence. he talked to her and ordered her around just as though she were a mere chattel. he was never polite or tender to her. i feel very strongly that she was frightened of him. the only occasion i saw him physically mistreat her was the occasion i have mentioned but i heard repeatedly from mrs. hall, george bouhe, and others that oswald was physically mistreating her. . oswald was not grateful for any of the help that was being accorded to him and marina. he never once offered to contribute in even a small way to mrs. hall or any of the others with whom marina stayed. this was often a topic of conversation among us. we did not have much money ourselves and we were knocking ourselves out to help. he did not express any thanks or evidence the slightest appreciation; in fact, he evidenced displeasure and contempt. . i expressed to mrs. hall and to my friend george bouhe, and to others that i thought that they were only worsening things because the oswalds did not appear appreciative of what was being done for them. he acted as though the world owed him a living. i had the impression from time to time that marina was pretending and acting. . oswald always acted toward her like a soldier commanding one of his troops. my overall impression of oswald was that he was angry with the whole world and with himself to boot; that he really did not know what he wanted; that he was frustrated because he was not looked up to; and that he was dissatisfied with everything, including himself. . mrs. hall told me on several occasions that marina had said to her that she was quite afraid of oswald and that when she got to know a little more english she intended to leave him. oswald did not care who was present as far as his boorish attitude toward marina was concerned. it seemed that he did not care what others thought about anything. . anna meller, mrs. hall, george bouhe and the demohrenschildts, and all that group had pity for marina and her child. none of us cared for oswald because of his political philosophy, his criticism of the united states, his apparent lack of interest in anyone but himself and because of his treatment of marina. although the men were sometimes skeptical about helping them out, the ladies were quite compassionate about marina and felt that she needed help not only because of their straitened financial circumstances, but because of oswald's mistreatment of her. . i recall that when i saw the newspaper item in the fort worth paper about oswald returning from russia with his russian wife, i spoke to max clark and his wife. they are good friends and fine people, and he is a lawyer. we were all apprehensive about coming in contact with the oswalds but all the friends of mine later expressed the view that the federal bureau of investigation knew oswald and marina were coming into this country, and if they did not do anything about it, it was probably all right to have contact with them. i am afraid i never became completely reassured. . marina never had any money, not even pennies. oswald would not give any money to her. consequently, when she lived with mrs. hall and later with the others she and her baby were utterly dependent upon their host. she could not buy even a package of cigarettes, and even had she wished, she could not tender any token to her hosts. signed this th day of june . (s) alexander kleinlerer, alexander kleinlerer. testimony of mrs. donald gibson the testimony of mrs. donald gibson was taken at a.m., on may , , at maryland avenue ne., washington, d.c., by mr. albert e. jenner, jr., assistant counsel, and richard m. mosk, member of the staff of the president's commission. mr. jenner. would you be sworn? mrs. gibson, in the testimony you are about to give on your deposition do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? mrs. gibson. i do. mr. jenner. be seated, please. you are mrs. donald gibson? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. you are the former alexandra de mohrenschildt? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. and you were at one time married to mr. gary taylor, of dallas, tex.? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. you now live in wingdale, n.y.? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. what is your address in wingdale? mrs. gibson. harlem valley state hospital, building , wingdale, n.y. mr. jenner. i take it you are employed at the hospital? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. that is a state mental institution? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. is your husband also employed there? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. our information is that you were born on christmas day ? mrs. gibson. yes; that is right. mr. jenner. that was here in the united states? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. new york, to be exact? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. so that you are now years of age and will be next december? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. your father is george sergei de mohrenschildt? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. your stepmother is jeanne fomenko de mohrenschildt? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. f-o-m-e-n-k-o? mrs. gibson. i didn't know that. mr. jenner. also at one point in her life, jeanne bogoiavlensky; is that correct? mrs. gibson. yes; bogoiavlensky. mr. jenner. you were a resident of dallas, tex., in ? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. you were then married to gary taylor? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. what was your address? mrs. gibson. fairmount. mr. jenner. you married mr. taylor at a very early age as i recall? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. when was that? mrs. gibson. november , . mr. jenner. i don't care for the details, but after you married mr. taylor, you and he lived in various places in dallas? mrs. gibson. that is right. mr. jenner. what was the nature of his employment? mrs. gibson. well, he did all sorts of things. he went to school at one time, to college. mr. jenner. in dallas? mrs. gibson. no; in arlington. we lived in arlington, too. mr. jenner. what college was that? mrs. gibson. arlington state. i can't recall all the jobs he did. i mean he did a little bit of this and a little bit of that. mr. jenner. let's get to . what was he doing then? mrs. gibson. he was working off and on with a photographer, working on a movie, and driving a taxi part time. he also, he and this friend of his, steve moore, were trying to found this little company of landscaping. that didn't work out, so he still kept on his photography business. mr. jenner. do you recall his first name? mrs. gibson. well, it is---- mr. jenner. do you recall his birthday? mrs. gibson. december , i think . mr. jenner. so he was older, years older than you? mrs. gibson. he was years older than me; that is right. mr. jenner. i take it you were subsequently divorced? mrs. gibson. that is right. mr. jenner. you and mr. taylor. and when was that? mrs. gibson. our divorce became final, i believe, the th of april of last year. mr. jenner. of ? mrs. gibson. . mr. jenner. i take it there is a waiting period then? mrs. gibson. three months. mr. jenner. so the decree was entered the th of january? mrs. gibson. i really don't know. i didn't enter it. i left dallas and asked him to please divorce me. mr. jenner. i see. mrs. gibson. i didn't want to go through all the rigmarole of getting a divorce; no. i wanted to get out of dallas right then. mr. jenner. were you living together as man and wife during all of the year ? mrs. gibson. until november, the last part of november of ; yes. mr. jenner. had you been separated prior to that time? mrs. gibson. yes; in , i believe. mr. jenner. do you have a child? mrs. gibson. one child. mr. jenner. born of that marriage? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. and that child's name? mrs. gibson. curtis lee taylor. mr. jenner. when was that child born? mrs. gibson. february , . mr. jenner. while living at fairmount in dallas during the year , did you become acquainted with a lady by the name of marina oswald? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. did you also become acquainted with a gentleman by the name of lee harvey oswald? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. with whom did you become acquainted first? mrs. gibson. marina oswald. mr. jenner. tell me when, as closely as you can fix it. let me put it this way. tell me first the circumstances under which you became acquainted, what led up to it and how it occurred, and then fix as closely as you can when in you did become acquainted. mrs. gibson. well, my stepmother and my father called me up. mr. jenner. your stepmother is jeanne de mohrenschildt? mrs. gibson. jeanne; and my father called me up one evening and asked me---- mr. jenner. at your apartment? mrs. gibson. at my apartment; and asked me if i would please take care of marina oswald's child while she went to the dentist, and could she stay overnight with me because she had two appointments in a row, one on one day and one the next day, and i said all right. and as for the date, i imagine you know it better than i do. mr. jenner. i don't know anything better than you do. mrs. gibson. if you give me the date on the pads. i don't remember the dates at all. mr. jenner. was it the month of september? mrs. gibson. no. as i said, i thought it was before september. mr. jenner. before september? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. do you remember anything about the weather? mrs. gibson. it was very hot, but i don't remember the month. it could have been---- mr. jenner. could it have been in august? mrs. gibson. it could have been the latter part of august. it seems to me that would be about right. mr. jenner. can you recall anything about what your father and/or your stepmother said to you in identifying these people? you were naturally curious as to who they were? mrs. gibson. they told me that they were recently, marina and lee were recently here from russia, and hadn't been in dallas very long, or fort worth, wherever they were staying, and that she had a child the same age as mine, and that my stepmother thought it would be very nice if we got acquainted. and she said marina was around my age, and asked if i would please help them out since they didn't have any room in their apartment to keep her while she had these dental appointments. mr. jenner. that is, they didn't have any room in the de mohrenschildts' apartment? mrs. gibson. that is right. mr. jenner. from that conversation you became aware, had the impression that your father and your stepmother had had some prior acquaintance with these people? mrs. gibson. i think they just recently met them. mr. jenner. that was the impression? mrs. gibson. that was the impression i got. mr. jenner. do you recall what day of the week--that is, not the particular date as such, but was it a weekday, a saturday, or a sunday? mrs. gibson. it was a weekday. whether it was in the beginning of the week or the middle or the end i don't remember, but it was a weekday. mr. jenner. what time of day was it? mrs. gibson. well, they called me the night before, but it was in the early morning of the next day. mr. jenner. that you met marina? mrs. gibson. that i met marina. mr. jenner. did marina come alone? mrs. gibson. no; my stepmother brought her and the child. mr. jenner. that was in the morning? mrs. gibson. in the morning; that is right. mr. jenner. describe your apartment, will you please? mrs. gibson. how do you mean describe it? mr. jenner. how many rooms, living room, bedroom, two bedrooms, kitchen, dining room? mrs. gibson. well, there are five rooms, i guess, in all. mr. jenner. and they consisted of? mrs. gibson. living room, dining room, kitchen, bedroom, and bathroom. there was a small adjoining room to the bedroom but it wouldn't be classified as a whole room. mr. jenner. sort of more of a dressing room? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. for what purpose were you employing that room at that time? mrs. gibson. my child slept in that room. mr. jenner. where did you folks, that is yourself and your husband, normally sleep? mrs. gibson. we slept in the living room. mr. jenner. that was your normal practice? mrs. gibson. that is right. mr. jenner. so that the bedroom you mentioned was not occupied? mrs. gibson. no; it wasn't. mr. jenner. it was not in use, rather, at the time that marina stayed with you? mrs. gibson. no; it was used as a playroom really for my son curtis. mr. jenner. your stepmother brought marina and the baby to your home? mrs. gibson. that is right. mr. jenner. was your husband home at that time? mrs. gibson. no; i don't think so. mr. jenner. that is it was at a time when he would have departed for work? mrs. gibson. yes; i believe he had already gone to work. mr. jenner. you said that marina was to receive some dental care? mrs. gibson. that is right. mr. jenner. did she remain in the apartment all day after she arrived? mrs. gibson. after she came back from the dentist, she stayed there, i think she had a tooth, one or two pulled, and she stayed there that afternoon, after she came back from the dentist. mr. jenner. your stepmother brought her and then your stepmother took her to the dentist? mrs. gibson. that is right. mr. jenner. they returned? mrs. gibson. that is right. mr. jenner. that afternoon. mrs. gibson. that is right. mr. jenner. did marina remain and the baby remain with you overnight and into the next day? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. where did marina and her child stay that evening? mrs. gibson. they slept in the bedroom. mr. jenner. you didn't lodge her child, june, in the room in which your son curtis was? mrs. gibson. no. mr. jenner. when did you first meet lee harvey oswald? mrs. gibson. i believe it was on the evening of the first day that marina stayed with me. mr. jenner. did someone bring him or did he come alone? mrs. gibson. as far as i know, he came alone. mr. jenner. what was your impression as to the place from which he had come? mrs. gibson. i don't know where he had come from. mr. jenner. but he came alone? mrs. gibson. as far as i know; yes. mr. jenner. was marina able to speak english? mrs. gibson. no; not a word. mr. jenner. did you have any problems in that connection? mrs. gibson. well, i got a little dictionary and tried to figure out a few words, but it was very hard to communicate with her. mr. jenner. i take it then from your remark that you yourself are not fluent in russian? mrs. gibson. no. mr. jenner. do you understand russian? mrs. gibson. a few words. mr. jenner. your father speaks russian fluently, does he not? mrs. gibson. yes; he does. mr. jenner. and your stepmother? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. despite their fluency in russian, you never acquired any fluency? you just didn't acquire any familiarity with russian? mrs. gibson. no. mr. jenner. except your understanding of a few words? mrs. gibson. no; i didn't. mr. jenner. in any event you are unable to speak it? mrs. gibson. that is right. mr. jenner. when oswald came to your house that evening, did he speak english or russian? mrs. gibson. he spoke english to us and russian to marina. mr. jenner. when he arrived, did he speak with his child? mrs. gibson. oh, yes. mr. jenner. in what language did he speak with the child? mrs. gibson. russian. mr. jenner. that was not merely small talk? all of his conversation with his child was in russian? mrs. gibson. some was small talk. you could tell that he was just playing around, and when he really talked to her, it was in russian. of course once in a while he'd lapse into english. mr. jenner. you minded the child june while marina was at the dentist? mrs. gibson. that is right. mr. jenner. and also the following day while she was at the dentist? mrs. gibson. that is right. mr. jenner. how did you get along with the child? mrs. gibson. not very well. mr. jenner. tell us about that. mrs. gibson. pardon? i didn't understand you. mr. jenner. you say you didn't get along very well with the child. state it more fully to me factually; what the problems were. mrs. gibson. well, the minute marina left, the child would start to cry. she whimpered all the time. i couldn't feed her. every time i got near her she'd scream. she never slept. she's a very difficult child to get along with. she was not at all affectionate to anybody else but to her own parents. mr. jenner. do you think she found it strange to have anyone speak to her in english as distinguished from russian? mrs. gibson. i don't know if it was the english. i don't believe she had ever been with anybody but her parents and i think that might have had a lot to do with it, plus she was very spoiled, very catered to by her mother and her father. mr. jenner. there were subsequent occasions when you visited the oswalds or they visited you or marina visited you or you visited marina? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. drawing on the whole span of your acquaintance with the oswalds, rather than merely those first days, did you ever hear lee oswald address his child other than in russian? mrs. gibson. oh, like i said, sometimes he'd lapse into english. i imagine it was mainly for our benefit, more so than the child's. i mean normally he probably spoke to the child alone or when he was with marina always in russian. he never spoke english to her ever or even tried to teach her english, never attempted to. mr. jenner. that is he never spoke to marina other than in russian, and as you say, he never tried to teach her english? mrs. gibson. he never tried to teach her english, never, not one word. mr. jenner. did that strike you and your husband gary as a little out of the ordinary? mrs. gibson. well, we told him we thought that it was extremely stupid and we asked him why, and he said that he didn't want to lose his russian. she, of course--in russia i believe she worked in a pharmacy. wasn't she a pharmacist? and therefore we said to be able to get a license over here she would have to speak english, and it didn't seem to bother him. i think he didn't like the idea of her having more education than he did. i think he wanted her to remain solely dependent on him. mr. jenner. during all the period that you and your husband were acquainted with the oswalds, was there ever any discussion about either of them returning to russia? mrs. gibson. no; he did not want to go back. mr. jenner. did he say that? mrs. gibson. yes. he disliked russia just like he disliked the united states. mr. jenner. what was your impression of him? was he looking for utopia? mrs. gibson. i'd say so. he didn't agree with communism and he didn't agree with capitalism. he had his own ideas completely on government. mr. jenner. would you please call on your recollection and tell us what you recall as to what his beliefs, political beliefs, were, as he expressed them? mrs. gibson. well, i'd say that his beliefs were more socialistic than anything else. i mean he believed in the perfect government, free of want and need, and free of taxation, free of discrimination, free of any police force, the right to be able to do exactly what he pleased, exactly when he pleased, just total and complete freedom in everything. mr. jenner. did he talk in terms of any obligation to this so-called perfect state? mrs. gibson. no. actually i think he believed in no government whatsoever, just a perfect place where people lived happily all together and no religion, nothing of any sort, no ties and no holds to anything except himself. mr. jenner. did he ever discuss in that connection the necessity for making a contribution to that society; working himself? or was this a utopia in which he was to be free to do what he pleased, work or not as he saw fit? mrs. gibson. i really don't know if he planned to work or not. i don't know what lee wanted to do in life. i think he wanted to be a very important person without putting anything into it at all. mr. jenner. did you have any impression of resentment on his part? mrs. gibson. he resented any type of authority. he expected to be the highest paid immediately, the best liked, the highest skilled. he resented any people in high places, any people of any authority in government or, oh, in let's say the police force or anything like that, or in your army, navy, marines or whatever he was in. mr. jenner. were there discussions between your husband and him on these subjects? mrs. gibson. yes; quite frequently. they argued a lot about it. mr. jenner. was there any discussion--you say he wanted to be the highest paid, he wanted to be the leader and that sort of thing. did your husband raise with him any necessity on his part to qualify himself for those positions and that high pay? mrs. gibson. well, my husband told him you can't be something for nothing. he said you can't expect to get high pay and receive a good position with no education and no ambition, no particular goal, no anything. well, he just expected a lot for nothing. mr. jenner. you have the impression that he was not an ambitious person, ambitious in the sense of willing to devote himself to an objective and work toward something? mrs. gibson. no; i don't think he knew what he wanted. mr. jenner. as distinguished from just being given to him or falling in his lap? mrs. gibson. no; i don't think he knew what he wanted, and i don't think he was too interested in working toward anything. he expected things to be just given to him on a silver platter. but in his ideas, he was extremely devoted. mr. jenner. he was devoted to his concepts? mrs. gibson. to his ideas as to how he thought. you couldn't change his mind no matter what you said to him. mr. jenner. he was rigid in his views then? mrs. gibson. very, very rigid in his ideas. mr. jenner. what did he say about russia during these periods when you had these discussions? mrs. gibson. well, he said he was very disappointed in russia. russia was not what he thought it would be. it was not the ideal place, that communism was not the ideal government, that he disliked communism just as he disliked capitalism, that he disliked russia very much. mr. jenner. did he tell you about his life in russia? you were curious about it and your husband too, i assume? mrs. gibson. yes; he told us bits and pieces about it, and then of course he gave us a manuscript to read. he told us quite a bit about russia, yes. mr. jenner. would you please state what you recall as to what he said in that connection? mrs. gibson. well, i can't recall any specific thing. i recall that he said he was quite sick over there; this didn't hold too well. he said he was treated with a little more deference than the next ordinary russian person because he was american, that he had a terrific time leaving russia, and that it scared him very much. mr. jenner. you mean terrific in the sense of difficulty? mrs. gibson. a very difficult time. i think he said it took him a year to be able to get out of russia. he almost didn't make it. it scared him very much. he was supposed to give over his citizenship and become a citizen of russia to be able to work there, but he didn't do this, and he was still able to work there. he didn't know why exactly, but they allowed him to work there anyway. but they kept pressuring him to give up his citizenship to be able to work in russia, get working papers. mr. jenner. tell us more about that. tell us everything you remember as to what he said about the fact that they pressured him to give up his citizenship so he could stay in russia and work. mrs. gibson. well, i don't know how you consider pressuring him. they kept suggesting that he should give up his citizenship to be able to work in russia; otherwise, why was he there? if he was there obviously he wanted to become a russian. to be able to work in russia you were supposed to be a russian citizen. you had to give up your citizenship. and he kept objecting to this. i guess he was scared. he didn't really want to go as far as giving up his american citizenship. mr. jenner. did he say anything about his course of conduct when he first went to russia, any attempted surrender by him of his citizenship at that time voluntarily? mrs. gibson. no; i don't recall that he did say anything about voluntarily giving up his citizenship; no. he might have. i don't recall that. mr. jenner. was there any discussion as to how he met marina; and their courtship and marriage? mrs. gibson. there was. i don't remember too much of it. i think he met her in minsk. i believe he was working there at a factory that manufactured television chassis, and he met her, i don't know exactly how. i think he met her when he was sick in the hospital. i don't know what was wrong with him. and they i guess went out from there, and i guess, i don't know how long they went out, and they got married. mr. jenner. when you say "went out" you meant began to date? mrs. gibson. dating; yes. i don't know exactly what you do in russia. and i think she wanted to come to the united states very badly. mr. jenner. would you elaborate on that, calling of course on your recollection of what was said which gave you these impressions? that is, what you learned from her or from conversations with him in her presence? mrs. gibson. no; i guess this was rather hearsay. i think she told this to my stepmother in conversation, that she wanted very much to come to the united states to make a better life for herself, that she wasn't very much interested in politics, just in a better place to live. supposedly this is the reason she married lee. mr. jenner. that was your impression in any event? mrs. gibson. this is what i was told, yes. mr. jenner. nothing occurred during the period of time that you had this acquaintanceship with the oswalds that disabused you of that impression? mrs. gibson. no; and i wouldn't say there was a tremendous amount of love lost between them. mr. jenner. between marina and lee harvey oswald? mrs. gibson. that is right. they quarreled quite a lot. mr. jenner. would you tell us about this lack of rapport between marina and lee harvey oswald? mrs. gibson. well, they fought quite a bit. they fought in russian, always verbally when i saw them, but when she was living with mrs. hall in fort worth, i was told that he beat her up on numerous occasions, physically assaulted her, and that mrs. hall and her, oh, i don't know what you would call him, her fiance, alex---- mr. jenner. is that alex, alexander kleinlerer? mrs. gibson. i guess so. i don't know his name. mr. jenner. describe him to us. mrs. gibson. describe him? mr. jenner. physically. mrs. gibson. he was short, very dark, moustache, black moustache, european dresser, an accent, very much the gangster type in his looks, very oily looking, very oily in personality, actually a rather creepy customer. he spoke russian fluently. i think he spoke quite a few languages fluently. he, i believe, was born or originated in paris. i have no idea what his occupation was. but he did not get along with lee at all. he had numerous arguments with him over marina and how he beat her. mr. jenner. did any of this occur in your presence? mrs. gibson. one afternoon he was telling lee off very, very---- mr. jenner. tell us where this occurred? mrs. gibson. this occurred in mrs. hall's home in fort worth. mr. jenner. you were present? mrs. gibson. and my husband; we were both present. mr. jenner. and who else please? mrs. gibson. mrs. hall and marina were in the other room. lee and alex, and he was telling lee off in no uncertain terms about how he beat up marina, and about his whole outlook on life. he was really giving him a tongue lashing. mr. jenner. and what response did he obtain from lee? mrs. gibson. very sullen, very sharp answers. in fact i thought there was going to be a fight there for a minute. mr. jenner. did lee deny at that time in your presence, these accusations being uttered by alexander kleinlerer? mrs. gibson. he said it was none of his business. mr. jenner. but he didn't deny that he had done this? mrs. gibson. no. mr. jenner. he just said it was none of kleinlerer's business? mrs. gibson. that is right. mr. jenner. had either you or your husband ever--did either you or your husband ever talk to lee oswald about his treatment of marina? mrs. gibson. no; we never talked to him about beating his wife. we just talked to him about how he should teach her english, how it was very important for her to know english. mr. jenner. i take it that that phase, that is the teaching of english to her, that sort of conversation occurred several times during your acquaintanceship with oswald? mrs. gibson. oh, yes; very often. mr. jenner. and his response always was that he didn't want to lose---- mrs. gibson. he didn't want to lose his russian. mr. jenner. was there anything said by you or gary that he could speak to her in russian and she could speak with him in russian but at the same time she could be taught english? mrs. gibson. no. mr. jenner. neither you nor your husband gary urged that alternative? mrs. gibson. no; we just gave up. mr. jenner. what was lee oswald's personality? was he a gracious person, ungracious, was he rude, or was he not? was he appreciative? mrs. gibson. he could be very, very rude. he appreciated absolutely nothing you did for him. he never thanked you for anything. he seemed to expect it of you. mr. jenner. we are going to get into all that eventually, but you and your husband gary were very helpful to him, reasonably so in any event. you did a number of things for him; did you not? mrs. gibson. i'd say we did a number of things for him that we didn't have to do, and we certainly didn't need to do, and we certainly didn't owe him anything. but we did try to help. mr. jenner. now in the face of all that, you say that at no time did he express any appreciation or thanks. mrs. gibson. i think the only time he ever said thank you was when we moved him from fort worth to dallas. i think it was a very brief thank you, and that was that. mr. jenner. but otherwise, he neither expressed nor did you feel any evidence of appreciation on his part for what you and your husband did? mrs. gibson. no; i didn't feel anything. i fed his wife quite a few meals. he never offered me any reimbursement of any type for it. he never thanked me. he just seemed to act as if we owed it to him, and i felt that i didn't owe him a thing. mr. jenner. what about marina, on the other hand, in this connection? mrs. gibson. i think marina was appreciative. mr. jenner. discounting the difficulty of communication? mrs. gibson. i had the feeling she was appreciative; yes. but she was exceedingly lazy. she would do nothing to help. the only thing she would do would be to take care of her child. she would do this, thank goodness, but otherwise she would do nothing to help. she wouldn't help with the dishes or clearing the table or preparing the meal, cleaning the apartment, anything pertaining to the extra work i had to do because she was there. mrs. hall had the same complaint. mr. jenner. mrs. hall expressed this complaint to you? mrs. gibson. exactly the same complaint: that marina slept very late, which she didn't do in my apartment but she did there, that she did not help with the house, that she didn't do anything really; just sat around and took care of the baby. mr. jenner. over this period--let me fix the period of time. you first met them, your present recollection is, sometime the latter part of august . when was the last time you saw either of the oswalds? mrs. gibson. well, when i returned a manuscript to lee oswald, it could have been either the end of november or the middle of december. i am not sure which. mr. jenner. ? mrs. gibson. ; that is right. mr. jenner. over this period of approximately, let us say, - / months in , how many times did marina stay in your home? you have given one occasion. mrs. gibson. it must have been at least two or three, no more than that. mr. jenner. over that - / month period, the oswalds were in your home no more than two or three times that is on visits, one or the other of them? mrs. gibson. no; he was. she was only there one other time to visit. he popped in and out frequently. she was in fort worth at the time, and i didn't see her. mr. jenner. going back to this following or second day of marina's visit in august, i take it your stepmother picked her up and took her to the dentist on the second day as well? mrs. gibson. that is correct. mr. jenner. did she return to fort worth that day? mrs. gibson. i think she took a bus that afternoon to fort worth. mr. jenner. did she go to the bus station by herself or was she taken? mrs. gibson. my stepmother took her. mr. jenner. did you learn where the oswalds were living or staying at that time? that is, is this the first occasion that you met them? mrs. gibson. well, they must have been staying at that duplex. mr. jenner. on mercedes street? mrs. gibson. yes; that is where they must have been staying. mr. jenner. were you ever in that home or apartment? mrs. gibson. yes; i was. mr. jenner. when was the first occasion you were in that duplex? mrs. gibson. it was sunday afternoon somewhere, it must have been about weeks or more after i first met them. gary and i went over to visit them in fort worth. mr. jenner. weekday or weekend? mrs. gibson. sunday. mr. jenner. on a sunday. this was then in september of ? mrs. gibson. it must have been early september or late august. mr. jenner. this was a visit on your part? mrs. gibson. that is right. mr. jenner. were they aware of the fact that you were going to visit them? mrs. gibson. no. mr. jenner. when you arrived there, was anyone there? mrs. gibson. i am not very clear on that point. it is possible that lee's mother was just leaving. i am not sure. she was either just leaving or she had just left before we came. i don't remember. i am not too clear on if i met her passing as she was going out or if i didn't meet her. mr. jenner. how did you know where they lived? mrs. gibson. lee i believe--lee gave us their address. mr. jenner. on what occasion did he give you their address? mrs. gibson. it must have been one of the times he stopped by, dropped in. i don't really know. mr. jenner. i don't know as i asked you this. did he visit at your home at anytime during those first days that marina stayed with you? mrs. gibson. yes; he came to visit the first evening. mr. jenner. had you expected him? mrs. gibson. i had thought that he might be coming. i believe she had told my stepmother that lee was dropping by or my stepmother had told me. somebody had said something. mr. jenner. that was the first occasion on which you met lee harvey oswald? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. did he stay the evening and then leave? mrs. gibson. he stayed about an hour and then he left. mr. jenner. and what did you notice with respect to the relations between lee oswald and marina on that first occasion? mrs. gibson. i'd say they got along fairly well. mr. jenner. what was your impression as to whether he was employed at that time? mrs. gibson. i didn't get any impression one way or the other. mr. jenner. did you get any impression in that respect when you and your husband, gary, visited them on the sunday afternoon you have mentioned? mrs. gibson. i believe he talked about his employment, but i am not sure. he must have. they must have talked about it. mr. jenner. your impression was he was then working at some kind of employment? mrs. gibson. yes; i mean it was just normal to assume. he had an apartment and a child and a wife. he must have been working. mr. jenner. were there any others than those you have mentioned who were at the apartment on that sunday afternoon; you have mentioned the possibility of lee harvey oswald's mother and, of course, there was lee and the baby and marina. mrs. gibson. later on in the early evening some people came to visit, some of the russian colony from fort worth and dallas. i don't recall the names. i think mrs. hall and alex were there. otherwise, there must have been four other people, four or five other people besides them. mr. jenner. i will mention some names. mamantov? mrs. gibson. no; i don't know that name. mr. jenner. meller? mrs. gibson. no; i don't know. mr. jenner. you are familiar with the name meller, aren't you? mrs. gibson. no; i don't believe so. mr. jenner. i think you mentioned mrs. hall and kleinlerer. mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. as possibly having been there. mr. and mrs. max clark? mrs. gibson. that is a possibility. the more i think about it, it is possible, but i am not sure. mr. jenner. you were acquainted with or aware of the clarks? mrs. gibson. yes; i believe i knew them. mr. jenner. they were friends of your father and stepmother? mrs. gibson. yes; i am not positive that i knew them very well, but i have a feeling, the name rings a bell definitely. mr. jenner. are you familiar with the name george bouhe? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. was george bouhe there? mrs. gibson. i am not sure, but the more i think about it, you asked me this question earlier, i think he was there. i think he was the extra man that was there. mr. jenner. what impression did you get as to whether it had been expected that this group was to come by or did they just happen by? mrs. gibson. no; i think they just dropped in. mr. jenner. did they stay very long? mrs. gibson. i left before they left. i don't know. mr. jenner. what was the nature of the conversation on that occasion? mrs. gibson. i couldn't really tell. a lot of it was in russian. you couldn't tell what was going on. mr. jenner. these were by and large russian-speaking people? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. describe the apartment to me, will you please? mrs. gibson. oh, my. well, it was rather nice. it was clean. there was a living room and a kitchen and a bedroom and a bath, hardwood floors, good paint. it was a duplex. a large backyard. the furniture was rundown but it was usable. all in all it was not a bad apartment. mr. jenner. what impressions did you get of lee harvey oswald throughout the - / month period, as to his dress and his self-respect and care? mrs. gibson. he was not a very clean person. in fact, i'd say he wasn't clean at all. he seemed to wear the same shirt for week after week. every time we saw him he had the same clothes on. fairly clean-shaven, but otherwise he was definitely not a clean person in dress. mr. jenner. and marina on the other hand? mrs. gibson. i'd say she was fairly clean. mr. jenner. what was lee oswald's attitude and his posture with respect to other people? was he reasonably polite and respectful? how did he conduct himself in the presence of others? mrs. gibson. it would depend on who the people were. he could be very polite if he wished. he could be very sarcastic, very blunt if he wished. he could be a very friendly person if he wished, and he could be very quiet if he wished. it just depended on who the people were. mr. jenner. which was predominant? mrs. gibson. oh, i don't know. it was really a mixture. he was easy, not too hard to get along with as far as we were concerned. we argued with him but it was always a friendly argument. when i saw him with other people, he was as friendly, smiling, but with his wife he could be very quiet, very brooding. that is about all i can tell you. mr. jenner. it has been said of him by some people that he was somewhat of an introvert, very quiet, not seeking the company of others. mrs. gibson. no; i wouldn't say he would seek out company, but when they came or when he went to visit them or us, he was always very--he didn't seem to be introverted; no. he seemed to be quite friendly, quite extroverted, no trouble expressing himself. he didn't sit in silence for hours. mr. jenner. what about his regard, his attitude toward others with respect to--that is did he--let's take your father's folks, did he have respect for your father? did he like him? mrs. gibson. yes; he liked my father very much. he had a great deal of respect for him. mr. jenner. and your husband gary? mrs. gibson. i would imagine he did. mr. jenner. what is your impression? mrs. gibson. yes; i'd say marina probably liked gary more than lee, though. mr. jenner. lee did visit at your home? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. and he did on occasion seek out your husband? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. and your husband occasionally sought out him? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. did lee express any views with respect to others in that milieux, that company, the halls, the mellers, the clarks, bouhe, the voshinins, the russian emigree colony? mrs. gibson. well, he liked mr. bouhe very much and he expected a lot of him. i think he thought that mr. bouhe might be his key to getting a good job. mrs. hall now, he liked her, but he said she was a crude, coarse woman. i think maybe he really deeply didn't like her that well. alex--what did you say his name was? mr. jenner. kleinlerer. mrs. gibson. he didn't like him at all, and the other people you mention, i imagine he has talked about them, but i can't place them, so i don't know his opinion on them. mr. jenner. these people were trying to help, were they not? mrs. gibson. yes; especially george bouhe. mr. jenner. what was lee's attitude toward that effort? mrs. gibson. i don't know. i don't know why they were trying to help him. he didn't deserve it. they didn't owe it to him. yet he seemed to, i got the feeling he thought they did. why, i don't know. mr. jenner. did you get the feeling at any time that he was contemptuous of any of them? mrs. gibson. when they didn't come up with something he wanted; yes. i'd say george bouhe was the one that stuck by him the most, more than my father, more than any of them. mrs. hall got disgusted with the whole thing, and especially, well, with both of them really, a lot with marina and a lot with lee. she got very disgusted with the whole situation. my father did, too. george bouhe seemed to be the only one that sort of stuck by them. mr. jenner. why did your father become disgusted with them? mrs. gibson. oh, just in general, with lee's lack of being able to get a good job or being able to really stick with anything, his treatment of his wife, his treatment of his fellowmen, just his total indifference. my father just got very aggravated with the whole thing, got aggravated with marina for taking lee's abuse, and he just got fed up. mr. jenner. now, there came an occasion when he either lost or quit his position in fort worth, isn't that so? mrs. gibson. i guess so. mr. jenner. well, that---- mrs. gibson. i imagine, i don't know if he lost it or if he quit. i believe he said he quit. mr. jenner. all right, now that you have said that, the fact is that he did quit. now, to help orient yourself, that occurred on the th of october , which was, i think, a tuesday but i will check on that to make sure. that was a monday. now, between that sunday afternoon which would be either late in august or some time in september, and the th of october, which was a monday, when he left the leslie welding co., had you seen the oswalds? mrs. gibson. between when? mr. jenner. between the sunday that you visited them and the th of october. mrs. gibson. no; i don't believe we had. we might have. he might have popped in. i don't know. mr. jenner. you have mentioned---- mrs. gibson. is this before he stayed at the ymca? this is before, isn't it? mr. jenner. yes. to help you in that respect, he stayed at the ymca october through october , . mrs. gibson. he might have popped in. i don't recall whether he did or not. mr. jenner. now, during that period of time, from that sunday to october , had marina stayed with you? mrs. gibson. no; i don't believe so. mr. jenner. you do recall lee oswald being in fort worth at the ymca, however, do you? mrs. gibson. in fort worth? mr. jenner. i mean in dallas. mrs. gibson. yes; we took him there. mr. jenner. you did take him to the ymca? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. all right. now, that was the th of october? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. . where was marina then? mrs. gibson. she might have been with us at the time. mr. jenner. do you recall whether you went to fort worth and picked him up and took him to the ymca? mrs. gibson. no; i don't believe we did. mr. jenner. give me your best recollection of that circumstance. mrs. gibson. all i can remember is letting him off at the ymca. i am almost positive we wouldn't go to fort worth, though, to pick him up. no; i don't believe so. mr. jenner. that was a monday. mrs. gibson. it was the afternoon when we dropped him at the y. mr. jenner. and you have no present recollection where you picked him up, whether---- mrs. gibson. no. mr. jenner. whether he had come to your house or what the circumstances were? mrs. gibson. no; i sure don't. i think he might have come to our house, but i am not sure. mr. jenner. did marina stay with you during this october period at all? mrs. gibson. i think she stayed with us the time that he was in the ymca. mr. jenner. that is? mrs. gibson. i think she stayed with us about days. mr. jenner. that is days? mrs. gibson. no; i don't believe she stayed with us the full time, no. mr. jenner. but she did stay with you during a period? mrs. gibson. a few; yes. mr. jenner. do you have a recollection of how she got there, whether you went or your husband went and picked her up and brought her to your home or whether lee brought her? mrs. gibson. no; i don't believe lee brought her. i think it would be more--it would be normal to assume, i don't remember this, that my stepmother or my father must have brought her, because i know we didn't. i don't recall picking her up at all. mr. jenner. but she stayed with you then, you think, during the period that he was at the ymca? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. now, did lee visit at your home while she was there during this ymca period? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. do you recall whether your husband gary went over to the ymca and picked him up and brought him to your home? mrs. gibson. no; i don't think so. i think he came by bus, or walked. that was possible, too. it wasn't that far. mr. jenner. would you locate your apartment at fairmont with respect to the location of the dallas ymca. that was downtown? mrs. gibson. well, it was almost downtown. i believe it was on maple avenue or very near maple avenue. mr. jenner. that is, the ymca was? mrs. gibson. yes; and maple avenue, we were only one block off of maple avenue. we ran parallel with maple, fairmont did, and we were only block off of maple, and i'd say it was, oh, maybe blocks from the ymca. mr. jenner. an easy walk? mrs. gibson. yes; or , maybe farther, but it was not a real long walk. it is possible to walk the distance. bus service was very frequent and very easy to get. mr. jenner. now, did you become aware, you and your husband, of the fact that lee obtained a position at jaggars-chiles-stovall on the th of october? that is while he was at the ymca, he had already obtained this position and had begun to work at jaggars-chiles-stovall? mrs. gibson. he began to work there while he was at the y? mr. jenner. he went to work on the th of october . mrs. gibson. oh my goodness. well, it is possible that we knew this. i know, i remember that he was employed there because i remember he used to tell gary how he liked the job, how that interested him. now, when i thought he was employed there i don't know. i remember when he was at the y that he was looking for a place to live in the dallas-oak cliff area. mr. jenner. did you or your ex-husband gary or both of you help him to look? mrs. gibson. yes; i believe one evening we went out with them and looked over the prospective places, places that we knew of, the place where we used to live--and worthington, and just in the general low-rent area which would be accessible to where he was going to be working. mr. jenner. so that you knew at that time where he was working or going to work? mrs. gibson. we knew the location of the place where he was working. now, i am not sure if we knew that he was working already or if we thought he was still unemployed, not unemployed but already employed but not working yet. mr. jenner. do you recall mrs. hall having been involved in an automobile accident? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. that was in october, was it not, ? mrs. gibson. i don't know what the month was, but i imagine it was. it must have been in the latter part of october. mr. jenner. do you recall marina residing with mrs. hall? mrs. gibson. she was with mrs. hall before the accident and after the accident and while mrs. hall was in the hospital she lived at the house. mr. jenner. do you recall also that mrs. hall, after she returned from the hospital, went to new york city? mrs. gibson. yes; i do. mr. jenner. and that while she was in new york city, that marina stayed at her home also? mrs. gibson. yes; she did. mr. jenner. do you know whether during that period lee oswald stayed at the halls'? mrs. gibson. yes; he did. i believe, while mrs. hall was in the hospital; he stayed with marina while she was alone for , , or days, something like that. he was there off and on. he spent quite a few nights there, i know this. mr. jenner. were there any occasions when you and your husband or either of you were at the halls' when oswald was there? mrs. gibson. i believe we took him to fort worth once to visit, and we stayed for supper, and mrs. hall was there and she cooked us supper. this is before her accident, and alex was there and marina and gary and myself. mr. jenner. this is the occasion to which you earlier made a reference, is it, or had you done so? mrs. gibson. it was the occasion where alex and lee got into an argument; yes. and this was prior to mrs. hall's accident. we stayed until fairly late in the evening. i can't remember if we brought lee back with us or if he spent the night. it would seem logical, i think we brought lee back with us. mr. jenner. you brought him back to where? mrs. gibson. to dallas. mr. jenner. to where in dallas? mrs. gibson. i don't know. i can't remember. mr. jenner. this was before he stayed at the ymca? mrs. gibson. no; this was after. mr. jenner. this was after mrs. hall returned from the hospital? mrs. gibson. no; this was before her accident. this is while marina was there. mr. jenner. to help orient you, she was in the hospital from the th of october to the th of october . mrs. gibson. this is before her accident. i think only a couple of days before her accident or a day before, because i remember how shocked i was when i heard that she had been in an accident. it was only a day or two before, so where would he have been living, at the y, wouldn't he, at that time? mr. jenner. he would be at the y. mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. he was at the y on the th. mrs. gibson. i imagine that is where we dropped him then. mr. jenner. do you know of your own personal knowledge the fact that lee stayed with marina at the halls' from time to time? mrs. gibson. yes; mrs. hall told me--he told me and marina---- mr. jenner. oswald told you? mrs. gibson. yes; and marina told me in a roundabout fashion. mr. jenner. how? mrs. gibson. well, she'd tell, you know, mrs. hall to tell me something and mrs. hall would tell me, that is how, or through lee, or through gestures or a dictionary she would be able to tell me a few words. mr. jenner. do you know whether or where, i will put it that way, where lee stayed between the th of october , when he left the y, and november , , when they moved into the elsbeth street apartment? mrs. gibson. i know that he stayed part of the time, i'd say a good portion of the time, at mrs. hall's. now, whether he had another residence i don't know. i know he spent a few evenings with my father. if he spent a night there i don't know. mr. jenner. when you say he spent a few evenings with your father, i infer from that--and if my inference is wrong please tell me--that there were occasions when he stayed overnight in your father's home. mrs. gibson. no; not occasions. i think possibly one or two times. but he would be over there evenings and they would talk. then he would leave. now, where he went to i don't know. mr. jenner. but your recollection is that there were at least several occasions in which he stayed overnight in your father's home? mrs. gibson. yes; i am trying very hard to think of where he stayed. it is such a very vague recollection, so vague it is barely there, that he had a room. but i don't know where. mr. jenner. during this period? mrs. gibson. during that period; yes. mr. jenner. from the th to the d? mrs. gibson. yes; it is so vague but it is there, that he had a room somewhere. where i don't know. i just can't think. mr. jenner. do you have a recollection that either you or your husband ever went to visit him at some room? mrs. gibson. no; gary possibly, but me, no. gary might have picked him up some place, but not me. i don't recall. it is just so vague and maybe it is just because you think there was one that i say this. but i feel that there was a room some place. mr. jenner. do you have any recollection that your stepmother gave you at any time an address? mrs. gibson. no; i don't. mr. jenner. at which lee, a place where lee was staying during this period from october to november ? mrs. gibson. no; i don't. she might have, but i have no recollection of it whatsoever. but then we weren't on too tremendously good terms and i might have just not even thought of what she said. mr. jenner. in any event, it is your recollection that during this period, october through november , that lee did stay a good portion of the time at the halls? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. with marina? mrs. gibson. it seems to me that he had a place to live somewhere near where he was working, somewhere easily accessible on foot, to where he was working. mr. jenner. that is your former husband gary's recollection, and he seemed reasonably confident that you would recall the address. mrs. gibson. no, no; no idea. did gary mention something about one night we were in oak cliff and we were looking for some place. mr. jenner. he said you were looking for oswald? mrs. gibson. is that what he said? and we went up and down and up and down and we never found the place. i recall one evening, i don't remember what we were looking for, but i recall this. mr. jenner. you were looking for oswald? mrs. gibson. is that who we were looking for? mr. jenner. no; i---- mrs. gibson. i don't know, i am not sure, but one evening gary and i were looking for some place, and i don't know where it was. but it was in oak cliff. it was right over the river. and we went up and down and back and forth for a good hour looking for this address. and i can't think of where it was, and we never found it. i do remember that. we never found it. mr. jenner. but it had something to do with oswald? mrs. gibson. i think it did. i think it had to do with a room that he had over there, but where it was, the address, i don't know. i never knew oak cliff very well in the first place. mr. jenner. you say he was now employed and could afford a room? mrs. gibson. yes; but i don't know where. i--we couldn't find it wherever it was, because we looked. mr. jenner. but you did have an address at that time? mrs. gibson. i had an address for something i was looking for. what it was i don't know. if i was looking for him or if i was looking for somebody else, if gary was looking for somebody, i don't recall. but it could possibly be that it was him that we were looking for. i don't know how gary thinks i can remember an address, though. i don't. mr. jenner. do you recall an occasion when you assisted marina and lee to move into the elsbeth street apartment? mrs. gibson. yes; i do. mr. jenner. what day of the week was that? mrs. gibson. i don't know. weekend. mr. jenner. was that a weekend? mrs. gibson. it seems reasonable that it would have been a weekend, but then with gary working as a cabdriver, i don't know if it was or not, because he sometimes worked weekends. they were good days to work. saturday was very good. was it a sunday? mr. jenner. yes. wait a minute, it was a saturday, the d of november , was a saturday. mrs. gibson. did we move him in on that day or did he start rent from that day? mr. jenner. the advice of the landlord or manager of the building was they moved in on the third, but do you recall that it was a weekend rather than a weekday? mrs. gibson. i wouldn't know. it could have been. it seems more logical that it would have been a weekend. mr. jenner. now, tell us about that from the beginning. what led up to it, how you participated, the extent you participated with your husband? mrs. gibson. well, when we were over in fort worth visiting mrs. hall, we had taken lee over there to see marina, we told them we would help them move when he found a place, and he came by one evening or---- mr. jenner. excuse me. this then was after he had obtained a job? mrs. gibson. yes. he either called or came by one evening. mr. jenner. was mrs. hall home on that occasion when you went over to see them? mrs. gibson. when we moved them or before, that other time? mr. jenner. that other time. mrs. gibson. yes; she was. mr. jenner. so this was subsequent to october ? mrs. gibson. and also we were over there to visit them also another time after she had the accident, and i remember she was in bed. mr. jenner. was it before or after she went to the hospital? mrs. gibson. it was after, right after, when she came home and she was still in bed. it was before she went to new york. mr. jenner. she came back on the th of october? mrs. gibson. yes; and we went over there and she was still in bed. mr. jenner. was that the occasion? was he there? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. was that the occasion when you told him that you would help him move? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. when he found a place? mrs. gibson. yes; i believe he said he was looking. and i believe---- mr. jenner. lee was at the halls' on that occasion? mrs. gibson. no; i think we took him there. mr. jenner. all right, he was not at the ymca. mrs. gibson. no. mr. jenner. he was not staying at the halls'? mrs. gibson. no; he came to our apartment. mr. jenner. so he must have been staying somewhere in dallas? mrs. gibson. yes; he must have been. he came to our apartment. i don't ever recall taking him back to any place in particular, or picking him up at any place in particular. see, that is my problem. but i do remember the visit when she was in bed, and we told them that we would help them move. and i guess he must have called us or come to visit us about moving, and we took our car and i think, i don't know if we rented a trailer, i think they rented a trailer in fort worth, i am not sure, and left it in dallas. mr. jenner. let's get it sequentially. you left your apartment? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. lee came to your apartment? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. in the morning was it? mrs. gibson. morning or early afternoon. mr. jenner. and then you left your apartment? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. you, your husband, and lee? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. and where did you go? mrs. gibson. to drop the baby off. mr. jenner. your baby? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. with a sitter? mrs. gibson. no; to mrs. taylor, gary's mother. mr. jenner. all right. mrs. gibson. from there we went to fort worth to mrs. hall's, and then lee and gary went to rent a trailer, and i stayed with marina. mr. jenner. was mrs. hall home on that occasion? mrs. gibson. no. mr. jenner. where was mrs. hall? mrs. gibson. i don't know. i guess she was in new york. so, they came back with the trailer and we started to load up all the stuff, and alex---- mr. jenner. kleinlerer? mrs. gibson. kleinlerer came by, i guess to supervise the moving, to see that nothing was taken of mrs. hall's, and he watched us move and we got all their stuff out, and we took them to their apartment in oak cliff, elsbeth apartment, to move them in there. by then it was early evening, and then we left them there. we looked over the apartment and we left them there. mr. jenner. your husband rented that trailer? mrs. gibson. i think lee did; didn't he? i don't think gary paid for it. did gary pay for it? i can't imagine gary paying for it. he might have, but i don't see it. mr. jenner. apart from that, did lee thank you for spending the day? mrs. gibson. very briefly, thank you, and that was all. marina was not happy with the apartment at all. she said it was filthy dirty, it was a pigsty and she didn't want to stay there. lee said it could be fixed up. mr. jenner. what was their attitude toward each other on that occasion? mrs. gibson. they were arguing. mr. jenner. during the day when you reached the elsbeth street apartment? mrs. gibson. not too much during the day but after she saw the apartment she was very unhappy with it and they were arguing very much when we left. mr. jenner. was it your impression she had not seen it? mrs. gibson. no; i don't believe she had; no. mr. jenner. what was your impression of the apartment? mrs. gibson. it was a hole. it was terrible, very dirty, very badly kept, really quite a slum. it had possibilities to be fixed up. it was large, quite large, built very strangely, little rooms here and there, lots of doors, lots of windows. the floor had big bumps in it, you know. it was like the building had shifted and you walked up hill, you know, to get from one side of the room to the other. it was not a nice place; no. mr. jenner. was it a brick structure, wooden? mrs. gibson. it was brick outside, dark red brick. it was a small apartment building. i think two stories, overrun with weeds and garbage and people. mr. jenner. did you visit the oswald's in that apartment thereafter? mrs. gibson. no. mr. jenner. do you know whether your husband did? mrs. gibson. i think he told me when i came back to dallas in december that he visited them once. mr. jenner. i take it then that sometime after november , you left dallas? mrs. gibson. yes; i left dallas the latter part of november. mr. jenner. and just to orient you, where did you go? mrs. gibson. i went to tucson, ariz. mr. jenner. you were with your aunt? mrs. gibson. no; i was by myself. mr. jenner. had you lived in tucson? mrs. gibson. before that, no; not really. i had been to boarding school there a few years, and i lived in tucson year with my aunt in a house that we rented, and her husband, but i had not lived in tucson before this. mr. jenner. let's identify her. what was her name? mrs. gibson. mrs. tilton. mr. jenner. what was her full name? mrs. gibson. do you want her first name? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. gibson. nancy. mr. jenner. nancy tilton? mrs. gibson. nancy sands tilton. mr. jenner. and her married name? mrs. gibson. mrs. charles elliott tilton iii. mr. jenner. and in previous years you had as a young girl, even as a child, lived with her; had you not? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. that was a good many years? mrs. gibson. yes; years. mr. jenner. fourteen years. was that in arizona or florida? mrs. gibson. it was all around. i lived in vermont in the summer, arizona in the winter, florida sometimes. it depended. mr. jenner. your aunt was a person of means i gather? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. you have already mentioned that you saw lee harvey oswald when you returned from arizona? mrs. gibson. i am not sure if it was then or if it was right before i left. mr. jenner. before you left for what? mrs. gibson. arizona. mr. jenner. and where did you see him? mrs. gibson. at the apartment. he came by to pick up a manuscript that i had of his. mr. jenner. that is at your apartment? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. i show you a document that is in evidence in this proceeding as commission exhibit no. . would you examine that and tell me whether that is the manuscript to which you have made reference several times. mrs. gibson. i believe it is. yes; it is. mr. jenner. tell me the circumstances under which you first saw that document and how it came into your possession? mrs. gibson. i asked lee if he had written anything on russia that i could read, if he had any material, and he said yes, he did; that he had a manuscript that he had written on general life in russia and i asked him if i could read it and he said yes and he gave it to me. he brought it over one evening. i have no idea of the date or the time. mr. jenner. was it reasonably early in the course of your acquaintance with the oswalds? mrs. gibson. i think it was before they moved to dallas, to oak cliff. mr. jenner. did you ever discuss the manuscript with him? mrs. gibson. yes; i did. i told him he should publish it and he said no, that it was not for people to read. mr. jenner. did you ever discuss its contents with him? mrs. gibson. yes; a little bit. i asked him questions about it. mr. jenner. can you recall any of the inquiries you made of the discussions you had with him regarding the substance of it? mrs. gibson. well, i asked him, i believe on this manuscript that it was said that you could not move from town to town. mr. jenner. in russia? mrs. gibson. yes; and he was telling me why. mr. jenner. what did he say? mrs. gibson. he said that the housing problem was so difficult there that once you got an apartment or a room in one city, that you had to wait in line in another city to get housing, therefore, you were not allowed to leave from one city to another unless you already had housing and a job. but for him it was easier because he was an american, and i guess as he said they were trying to impress him a little bit. mr. jenner. in that connection did he imply that he was free to move about the country as he saw fit? mrs. gibson. freer than russians i would imagine. he did imply that he was freer than they were. mr. jenner. to move around? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. did he say that he had at any time left minsk to go anywhere else? mrs. gibson. i believe he had been to moscow. mr. jenner. was that in connection with his efforts to return to this country? mrs. gibson. i have no idea. i think it was just to see the countryside. mr. jenner. would you look further through that manuscript and see if your recollection is refreshed as to any other discussion you had with him? mrs. gibson. well, we talked a little bit about clothing and food. mr. jenner. that is a generalization. tell me what you talked about. mrs. gibson. well, he said that the russian people were very impressed with his clothing, that they did not have the quality or the style that he had. also the sparseness of fruits, vegetables there. he told them about the supermarkets we had here and how plentiful fruit and vegetables were, how expensive butter and everything was in russia, like that, your dairy products, aside from milk, butter, and cottage cheese, and all these things were extremely expensive and, well, like gold. education we talked about, how much higher their educational standards are. mr. jenner. than ours? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. what did he say in that connection? mrs. gibson. they are much higher, that everybody is trained there to do something. that they have what would be considered, well, like your elementary school, and after you finished this required, oh, i don't know what it is, or years of school, you take this test, and if you pass this test you are admitted into what is considered college. if you don't pass it, you are able to choose a vocational school that you can go to to train you in some vocation, oh, like bricklayers or electricians or plumbers or something like this. you are allowed to choose whatever you want. you hear, he said, that women are laying streets, let's say, in russia and he said that isn't because they are made to but this is because what they have chosen to do, what they want to do. that is about the general gist of what he had to say. mr. jenner. do you recall something about a time when little june was baptized? mrs. gibson. yes; i do. mr. jenner. tell us about that, please. mrs. gibson. well, one evening there was a knock at the door and i went to answer it and mrs. hall and marina and june were outside, and mrs. hall came in and told me that she had just brought marina and june to dallas. mr. jenner. did marina and the baby come in the apartment, too? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. and mrs. hall said this in the presence of marina? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. was your husband home? mrs. gibson. no. she said that they brought the baby to dallas to be baptized without lee knowing it because he would object, and that marina had been brought up in russia with religion, although it was against the law there, and that she wanted her child to be baptized, and that lee objected so strongly to it that she did it on the sly, and she asked me please not to tell him. and she left a box of clothes of his there for me that she had bought him. it was his birthday, i believe, the next day. mr. jenner. lee's birthday? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. all right. now, he was born on the th of october , so this was the occasion when he was living at the ymca? mrs. gibson. his birthday was the next day or something, or a couple of days. mr. jenner. he was at the ymca from the th through the th, ? mrs. gibson. i am getting my days messed up, because i thought she stayed with us while he was at the ymca. she must not have. you know, i can't place when she stayed with us. i can just place the period of time that she stayed with us, you know, that it was not over or days. mr. jenner. could it have been right following his leaving the ymca? mrs. gibson. it possibly could have been. i really don't know. but like i said, that is something i forgot. now that you know his birthday, you can place when she was baptized and when she brought this box to me. mr. jenner. she was baptized the day before his birthday? mrs. gibson. i am not sure if it was the day before or days or days, but it was real close to his birthday. mr. jenner. real close? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. the records indicate the baptism occurred on the th of october, . mrs. gibson. then it must have been the day before. mr. jenner. which is the day before his birthday, but the occasion you remember it was about his birthday time? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. they left a box of clothing or some gift? mrs. gibson. oh, it had a shirt and a pair of sox and general things. mr. jenner. these were new? mrs. gibson. brand new. mr. jenner. a gift? mrs. gibson. a gift; yes. from his wife. mr. jenner. didn't it seem strange to you at that time with him at the ymca they didn't ring him up or go by the ymca and leave this birthday gift? mrs. gibson. she didn't want him to know that she was in dallas because she didn't want him to know she had baptized the baby. mr. jenner. did lee speak with you on that subject? mrs. gibson. yes; i guess it must have been the next day that he dropped by and i gave him the box, and i didn't say anything about this, but i think he had heard it. i think he had talked to marina or something on the telephone. mr. jenner. he became aware when he came by the next day, which would be his birthday, that they had---- mrs. gibson. i think she told him on the telephone that she had baptized the baby, and he asked me if i knew, and i said yes, and he said, "why didn't you tell me?" and i said, that it was not any of my business. mr. jenner. i am a little bit confused. he came by the next day, that is the day after mrs. hall and marina were there? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. and he came by to pick up his birthday gifts? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. at that occasion you didn't say anything to him about the baptism? mrs. gibson. no. mr. jenner. therefore, at some subsequent occasion---- mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. after that---- mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. there was a discussion? mrs. gibson. yes; i think it was probably the day after that that he dropped by and he asked me about this. he asked me if they had been there, and i said yes. he says, "why didn't you tell me?" mr. jenner. why you didn't tell him what? mrs. gibson. that they had been there and that the baby had been baptized, and i said that it was none of my business. mr. jenner. the thing that confuses me a little bit is he came by and picked up the birthday gift. mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. nothing was said about baptism. mrs. gibson. no. mr. jenner. on that occasion. mrs. gibson. no, no; i think he---- mr. jenner. therefore, he must have known or inquired as to where you got the birthday gift, correct? mrs. gibson. i don't recall. i think i had some story fixed up for that. mrs. hall, i think, told me to tell him that she had been by, or something. i can't remember what it was, but she had some story, you know, for how come i had that. mr. jenner. that would explain that, then. mrs. gibson. yes; i don't, you know, really remember what was said exactly. mr. jenner. the day following that occasion---- mrs. gibson. i did not tell him that i had seen marina, though. mr. jenner. is when he approached you on the subject? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. of the baptism and why you hadn't told him? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. what did you say to him? mrs. gibson. i told him it was none of my business, and he wasn't too happy about it. mr. jenner. what did he say about the fact that june had been baptized? mrs. gibson. not too much. he wasn't really that upset about it. he just said he didn't like the idea, but that was all. he wasn't terribly upset about it. mr. jenner. mrs. gibson, was he upset because the baby had been baptized in the russian orthodox church rather than the lutheran church, for example? mrs. gibson. no; he was an atheist. he just didn't want anything to do with religion. mr. jenner. did you and your husband have discussions with him on the subject of religion? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. and what were his views on the subject of religion? mrs. gibson. he didn't believe in it. he didn't believe in god. he didn't believe in anything. mr. jenner. and did that discussion occur reasonably often, on more than one occasion? mrs. gibson. oh, it was mentioned in with politics. you know how that can get. the two subjects you are not supposed to talk about we talked about probably the most. mr. jenner. what was your impression about any view or hope or desire or ambition on his part of some future attainment? mrs. gibson. he didn't really talk too much about in the future or what he wanted to do. i don't know what he wanted to do with himself. mr. jenner. was president kennedy ever mentioned in the course of the discussions between your husband and lee? mrs. gibson. never, never. he wasn't president at the time anyway, was he? mr. jenner. yes; he was. mrs. gibson. yes; he was. he had just become president, hadn't he? no, he was never mentioned. now, the only person ever mentioned pertaining to that was the governor of texas. mr. jenner. he became president in . mrs. gibson. it was the governor of texas who was mentioned mostly. mr. jenner. tell us about that. mrs. gibson. first you are going to have to tell me who the governor was. mr. jenner. connally. mrs. gibson. connally. wasn't that the one that---- mr. jenner. that had been secretary of the navy. mrs. gibson. that had been secretary of the navy, was it? well, for some reason lee just didn't like him. i don't know why, but he didn't like him. mr. jenner. would this refresh your recollection, that the subject of governor connally arose in connection with something about lee's discharge from the marines? mrs. gibson. i don't recall. i just know lee never spoke too much about why he left the marines or anything like that. i don't know. maybe it was a dishonorable discharge, i don't know. all i know is that it was something he didn't talk about. and there was a reason why he did not like connally. mr. jenner. whatever the reason was, he didn't articulate the reason particularly? mrs. gibson. no; he just didn't like him. mr. jenner. but you have the definite impression he had an aversion to governor connally? mrs. gibson. yes; but he never ever said a word about kennedy. mr. jenner. did you answer? mrs. gibson. yes; i did; yes. mr. jenner. your answer is yes? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. that he did have a definite aversion? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. to governor connally as a person? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. and did he speak of that reasonably frequently in these discussions? mrs. gibson. no; not really, no. he didn't bring it up frequently. mr. jenner. but he was definite and affirmative about it, was he? mrs. gibson. yes; he didn't like him. mr. jenner. was general walker ever discussed? mrs. gibson. no, no. mr. jenner. were there any discussions in these political arguments between your husband gary and lee oswald about, oh, the american civil liberties union, the birch society, people having, let's say, extreme right viewpoints or left viewpoints? mrs. gibson. gary was quite a democrat, and he disliked the birch society intensely. so every once in a while they would come into the conversation, being that gary felt so personal about them. he didn't like them at all. and gary once in a while would make a comment, "oh, he is a bircher," i can't name any particular person, but just somebody in particular. i think dallas is a fairly republican city. no, there was nothing ever about any of the different factions, or right or left wing. just i know gary disliked the birchers. as i recall, i don't think lee had much to say about them. i think maybe he liked more radical people than we did, you know, the normal straight down the middle or conservative or something. mr. jenner. were there occasions when you saw either of the oswalds at your father's home? mrs. gibson. no. mr. jenner. were there occasions when your father and your stepmother brought either of the oswalds to your apartment other than those you have already testified about? mrs. gibson. not that i recall, no. mr. jenner. do you recall seeing oswald on the day before he moved into the ymca? he moved into the ymca on monday, october . did you see him the previous day, sunday? mrs. gibson. i don't know. i really don't know. mr. jenner. but you do recall taking him to the ymca? mrs. gibson. yes. mrs. jenner. on monday, the th? mrs. gibson. yes; we might have. i don't know. mr. jenner. did you go and pick up oswald at mrs. hall's when you took him to the ymca, or did he just come by your apartment? mrs. gibson. i can't remember where we picked him up, but i know we didn't go to fort worth to pick him up, no. it could have been at the bus station. mr. jenner. but you went somewhere to pick him up is your recollection? mrs. gibson. we could have gone somewhere. he could have come to our apartment. i don't recall. mr. jenner. you were aware of marina staying with the halls? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. mrs. hall? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. were you aware of her going to attend to mrs. hall; to do that before she actually went to live with mrs. hall? mrs. gibson. i might have heard something about it from my father. i don't know. mr. jenner. but you did not hear it from mrs. hall? mrs. gibson. i didn't know mrs. hall until i met her through marina. mr. jenner. after marina---- mrs. gibson. when i went to visit there. mr. jenner. that is when you went to visit marina while she was staying at the hall's? mrs. gibson. yes; when lee and gary and i went over there. that is the first time i ever met her. but she was very friendly because she knew my father, you know, and so it was a very friendly atmosphere. did mrs. hall give a fixed time of when marina stayed with her? mr. jenner. i can't say it was a fixed time, but she testified that it was before she had her automobile accident. mrs. gibson. well, what i am trying to fix in my mind is when marina stayed with me, you know. mr. jenner. that is the or days? mrs. gibson. yes; i can't fix that in my mind at all now. i thought it was when he was at the ymca and then it couldn't have been because of when the baby was baptized and when his birthday was. but it must have been shortly before that, because it wasn't after that. so it must have been before. mr. jenner. well, it wasn't on the th of october because you took him to the ymca on the th. was marina living with you then? mrs. gibson. no; not then, no. but she might have been shortly before that. i believe she was at mrs. hall's then, wasn't she. doesn't she know where she was? mr. jenner. well, she has got some impressions; yes. mrs. gibson. i hope she does. mr. jenner. i am trying to find out what you recall. mrs. gibson. well, you know, i can't recall when she was there. i know when she wasn't there now more than i did before, from placing his birthday and the box and that, i know she wasn't there then. mr. jenner. wasn't where? mrs. gibson. at my place. i know she wasn't there then, because she came to visit me from fort worth with mrs. hall. but how long she had been with mrs. hall must not have been too long. mr. jenner. the thing that bothers me, also, mrs. gibson, mrs. hall entered the hospital on the th of october. mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. that is lee's birthday. she was at your place the preceding day? mrs. gibson. i think it was that night that she got in the accident. that is why i said it was very shocking when i heard, you know, that she had been in an accident. mr. jenner. and at the time she had her accident, marina was living with the halls'? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. was living at mrs. hall's home? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. your husband gary recalls that while lee was at the ymca, that he came to visit at your home. mrs. gibson. that is possible. mr. jenner. and his recollection was that marina was with you at that time. mrs. gibson. well, she couldn't have been. mr. jenner. all right. could it be that she stayed with you for a few days after he left the ymca and before they moved into the elsbeth street home or apartment? mrs. gibson. well, i don't know how it could be possible, because when we moved her from fort worth, she was at mrs. hall's. now whether she stayed with me while mrs. hall was in new york, she couldn't have because she was, mrs. hall was in new york when we moved marina, see, and marina was there. now, i suppose it is possible that she stayed with us, then, but i remember she stayed with mrs. hall after the accident because mrs. hall needed her. she couldn't get around. i know she was there before the accident because of the baptism and lee's birthday. so it leads me to believe she was there the whole time, you know. mr. jenner. do you recall when the oswalds left the mercedes street apartment? mrs. gibson. no; i don't know when they left that. they moved, from there they moved all her stuff to mrs. hall's. mr. jenner. right from the mercedes apartment? mrs. gibson. i guess they must have. all the stuff was there. mr. jenner. do you recall an occasion when your father moved marina and the baby from the elsbeth street apartment to mrs. meller's? mrs. gibson. no. mr. jenner. do you recall the oswalds living at neely street? mrs. gibson. where was that? mr. jenner. that is just about a block from the elsbeth street apartment, which they moved into from the elsbeth street apartment. mrs. gibson. that must have been after i left. mr. jenner. yes; it was. mrs. gibson. no. mr. jenner. you just don't recall anything about that? mrs. gibson. no; i wasn't there. mr. jenner. now, you do recall marina staying or days. mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. can you grasp in your recollection why? what led up to that? mrs. gibson. i think it was the period before she went to mrs. hall's. it must have been after lee lost his job, or quit. mr. jenner. in fort worth? mrs. gibson. yes; and before he got the new one. it must have been then. and i think it was while they were trying to find her a place to live, while he was job hunting. mr. jenner. and before he got his job with jaggars-chiles-stovall? mrs. gibson. it must have been. mr. jenner. on the th of october? you see that is a -day period, mrs. gibson. mrs. gibson. between when he lost his job and got his job? mr. jenner. that is right. mrs. gibson. that is probably where she stayed then. i am not sure. mr. jenner. the last day he worked at leslie welding was the th of october . he became employed and went to work for jaggars-chiles-stovall on the th of october . mrs. gibson. that probably was when she stayed with us, then. i just don't have any recollection of when it was. mr. jenner. do you have any recollection that she came to stay with you, the reason why? was she having difficulty with oswald? was that the reason, or was it because he was out of work? mrs. gibson. i think it was because he was out of work. i don't think they had any money. i think my father lent them money, didn't he? i don't know. somebody must have given them money. it was bouhe, that is who it was who lent them money. mr. jenner. it was only days, mrs. gibson. mrs. gibson. no; but he had to have money to get started. he had to have money to stay at the ymca. he had to have money to get started, and i know who gave him money. george bouhe did. mr. jenner. yes; george bouhe did, there is no question about that. mrs. gibson. because i recall that. he gave him money, and he also had the debt to pay to the american embassy. mr. jenner. do you have any recollection as to where oswald stayed prior to the time that he went to the ymca on the th of october, that is between the th of october and the th of october? that is a week. mrs. gibson. no; all i know is he never did stay at our place overnight ever. mr. jenner. do you recall when you were looking for this address, was it an address on north beckley? mrs. gibson. it is possible that it was. mr. jenner. does that stimulate your recollection at all? mrs. gibson. no; it doesn't. i just know that beckley is near the river. mr. jenner. and you were looking in the area. mrs. gibson. near the river; yes. mr. jenner. now, between the th of october and the d of november, which was the day you picked up oswald and marina and the baby and took them to the elsbeth street apartment, do you know where oswald was staying? mrs. gibson. no; but it was probably in that area where i was looking, you know. i am not even sure who i was looking for, but it seems possible. i don't know anybody else in oak cliff, you know. if that is anywhere near the jaggars co., and i think it is, that is probably where, and who we were looking for. mr. jenner. was marina taken to the dentist to your knowledge other than the first period, the first visit in august of ? mrs. gibson. i think she might have had another appointment. that possibly could have been the other reason why she stayed with me, but i am not positive. it seems to me you know by the dentist records if she had. i remember she had teeth pulled. now, how many--and, as i recall, those first appointments led to a later appointment after her mouth had healed. but i am not sure. mr. jenner. did marina stay at the halls' on more than one occasion, that is periods? mrs. gibson. i don't believe so. mr. jenner. was it just one period? mrs. gibson. i think it was one period. mr. jenner. did it have anything to do with mrs. hall's accident? mrs. gibson. why marina stayed there, you mean, or why she left? mr. jenner. why she went there in the first instance. mrs. gibson. no; mrs. hall had not had her accident when marina first moved in. mr. jenner. was mrs. hall aware that marina had stayed at your home? mrs. gibson. i think so. in fact, i could almost say positively she must have been aware of it. mr. jenner. what leads you to say that? mrs. gibson. well, i mean she never knew that marina and i knew each other. she brought her to my place. i had told her that, i believe i myself, told her that marina had stayed with me. i mean it is just in common conversation that she must have known. didn't she know? mr. jenner. including this - or -day period? mrs. gibson. yes; she must have known because that was before marina stayed with her. does she know? mr. jenner. she didn't mention it in her testimony. mrs. gibson. am i the last one to testify? mr. jenner. no. mrs. gibson, were you aware that lee oswald gave your apartment address and your telephone number--when i say your i mean you and your husband--when he was seeking employment in dallas? mrs. gibson. yes; he asked gary's permission and gary said all right. mr. jenner. that was in your presence? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. was that permission requested before he went to the ymca on the th of october? he obtained his job at jaggars, remember, on the th of october. mrs. gibson. i believe it was before. he said he needed to establish a residence, and a place where people could get in touch with him, where if there were any jobs coming up that they could get in touch with him and call him and he would check with us and we would tell him if there had been any calls for him or messages during the day. mr. jenner. now, were there any calls or messages? mrs. gibson. no; not that i recall. i don't believe there were. mr. jenner. and do you recall him looking for work during this period? that would be the th, th, th, and th of october. mrs. gibson. i really don't know. if he had a job, it doesn't seem that he would be looking for a job. mr. jenner. he was at the texas employment commission on the th, th, and th. mrs. gibson. then probably he was. and if he gave our address and our phone number; i am sure he was. mr. jenner. but you don't recall where he was staying during that period? mrs. gibson. no. mr. jenner. the th, th, th, th, th, and th? mrs. gibson. no. mr. jenner. could he have been staying at hall's? mrs. gibson. gee, it is possible, but i don't know. mr. jenner. but you do recall that he did stay at the hall's a good deal or portions of the time that marina was there? mrs. gibson. yes; he went there weekends, as i recall, when he was working. he spent the weekends there. mr. jenner. when he was working at jaggars? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. so when he began to work at jaggars, which was the th of october, up to the d of november when you and your husband, mr. taylor, took the oswalds to the elsbeth street apartment, he visited at the hall's on weekends? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. so there was some place he was staying then himself during that period? mrs. gibson. yes; there must have been. mr. jenner. did mrs. hall live in fort worth? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. and fort worth is approximately miles? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. from dallas, isn't it? mrs. gibson. he didn't stay in fort worth. mr. jenner. he stayed in dallas? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. but you can't recall still where he stayed in dallas? mrs. gibson. no; i have no idea. mr. jenner. but it is now your definite recollection that he did stay in dallas? mrs. gibson. well, i know that---- mr. jenner. excuse me--after he became employed at jaggars? mrs. gibson. yes; i will tell you why. because he told us that he goes by bus friday night or something to fort worth and he'd come back sunday evening. so it would be my normal assumption, i would say, that he was staying in dallas at the time. mr. jenner. had you and your father had some difficulty, some spats between the two of you along about this time? mrs. gibson. no; we had been spatting all our life. mr. jenner. i mean were you on speaking terms? mrs. gibson. yes; i'd say so. mr. jenner. do you recall at least one occasion when you picked up oswald in front of the ymca? mrs. gibson. no; i don't. mr. jenner. that your husband gary would go over and pick him up? mrs. gibson. i guess so. mr. jenner. bring him to your apartment? mrs. gibson. i guess so, or he'd walk. i don't know. i don't believe gary picked him up there. i believe he walked or took the bus. mr. jenner. what do you recall with respect to lee's habits of temperance or intemperance, drinking? mrs. gibson. i never saw him take a drink. mr. jenner. did he smoke? mrs. gibson. i don't think he did. mr. jenner. did marina smoke? mrs. gibson. on the sly. mr. jenner. why? mrs. gibson. because he objected to smoking, as i recall. he did. he didn't like to see her smoke, and he didn't like to see her wear any makeup. mr. jenner. did any discussions respecting that occur at your home? mrs. gibson. no; she told me this. don't ask me how. we just got it across to each other, you know. mr. jenner. how did she communicate with you? mrs. gibson. well, when two people get together, if you try hard enough you will get your idea across. if you have a dictionary and two hands, you will get the idea across, and that is how we managed to, you know, get our ideas fairly well across most of the time. but we didn't make too great an attempt at speaking because it was so much effort. but i do know this about makeup and smoking. mr. jenner. were there arguments between them on the subject? mrs. gibson. oh, i'd say maybe small ones. he didn't like her to wear lipstick and she liked to, things like that. she did like to smoke. mr. jenner. what about his reading habits? mrs. gibson. he read a lot. mr. jenner. how do you know that? mrs. gibson. my father had given him books to read. he was very much interested in them. mr. jenner. did he have them with him at times when he was at your place? mrs. gibson. one book i think he gave me that my father had asked him to give me or i gave him that my father had asked him to give me, one way or the other, it was called "animal farm." mr. jenner. what is that book about? mrs. gibson. it is a satire, i guess. it is about animals, but it is a takeoff on people. orwell--did he write it? mr. jenner. i think so. what is your recollection as to whether you gave oswald that book to read or whether your father gave it to him to read? mrs. gibson. one way or the other it got to me. either my father gave it to me to read and i gave it to lee or he gave it to lee to read and then lee gave it to me. it was one way or the other. mr. jenner. do you remember any other books? mrs. gibson. i think my father gave him some literature. i don't know what it was, though. oh, " " was another book that he read. mr. jenner. did he indicate that he had read it before? mrs. gibson. i believe that he had. that was by orwell, too, wasn't it? mr. jenner. yes; it was. did he indicate that he had read " " when he was a marine at el toro, calif.? mrs. gibson. no; i think he read it again. my father had it and my father read it, and i think lee said he wanted to read it again. mr. jenner. did he ever discuss that book in your presence? mrs. gibson. no. mr. jenner. what else do you recall as to the titles of books he read? mrs. gibson. i think he read the "rise and the fall of the third reich." he read hitler's, what would it be, autobiography? mr. jenner. "mein kampf"? mrs. gibson. yes; he read the marx book--what was that, was that the rise and fall of the third reich? no; what was it, about marxism? mr. jenner. "das kapital"? mrs. gibson. i don't know what it was, but anyway, he read a book that marx wrote on marxism, and that is about all i can recall on his literature. mr. jenner. do you recall some people or a person whose first name was natasha or evalina? mrs. gibson. i know natasha. mr. jenner. how did natasha come into this? mrs. gibson. first you will have to give me her last name so i am sure i have got the right one. mr. jenner. i can't give it to you. mrs. gibson. you don't have it? mr. jenner. i can't because i don't know. mrs. gibson. you can't because you don't have it? really? mr. jenner. really. mrs. gibson. well, natasha was a friend of my parents. they got in some numerous squabbles and sometimes they'd part. mr. jenner. was she a single lady? mrs. gibson. no; she has a husband. mr. jenner. they lived in dallas? mrs. gibson. yes; they are russian. i can't think of her last name for the life of me. now, i don't know if natasha knew lee or not. natasha was a friend of my father and jeanne. they got in numerous squabbles. their friendship would break off and then they'd come back together again after a few months after the squabble had quieted down. now, whether she knew lee or not, i don't know. mr. jenner. you mentioned that in one of your interviews, and my query of you is what led you to mention that, natasha? mrs. gibson. well, being that she was one of the russian colony i figured probably she would know them. that is all. mr. jenner. you were speculating? mrs. gibson. speculating; that is all. whether she did or not, i have no idea. mr. jenner. in one of your interviews you stated that after marina had stayed with you, she had moved into the hall's. does that refresh your recollection that that - or -day period was immediately preceding her moving into the hall's? mrs. gibson. no. when all those questions were given to me, i didn't have much time to think. it was completely by surprise. and when i said that, i meant the first day, because as you found out, those days that i am talking about are extremely vague. why i don't know, but they are very vague. mr. jenner. do you recall whether possibly oswald stayed with his mother in fort worth? mrs. gibson. maybe. mr. jenner. in this period, say, from october through november ? mrs. gibson. no; i don't believe he did, because he had to be in dallas. he couldn't commute to dallas every day. does his mother say this? mr. jenner. no. do you have any recollection that oswald stayed in the elsbeth street apartment before marina was moved in? mrs. gibson. no; i don't believe he did. mr. jenner. did any discussion occur as to whether oswald had renounced or attempted to renounce his american citizenship? mrs. gibson. no. mr. jenner. was the subject even discussed? mrs. gibson. well, it was when he told us about how, you know, the russians wanted him to give it up. mr. jenner. and he declined to? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. was marina politically minded? mrs. gibson. no; i wouldn't say so. mr. jenner. but she was religious? mrs. gibson. yes; i'd say she was. mr. jenner. what was your impression of oswald as to his intellect? mrs. gibson. i think he was very intelligent. mr. jenner. was he articulate? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. and what about his argumentation? mrs. gibson. very good. he could make almost anybody believe what he was saying. mr. jenner. he was strong in his convictions? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. unbending? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. do you have any impression of whether he was quick-tempered or prone to violence? mrs. gibson. i think he was very quick tempered. mr. jenner. he flared up, did he, during these arguments? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. and other things, with your husband? mrs. gibson. no; not with my husband. with his wife. he got disgusted, i think, with our stupidity, as he called it, which used to infuriate me. i don't particularly like being called stupid, and he used to call us stupid a lot. mr. jenner. was that because you differed in your view? mrs. gibson. differed with him. mr. jenner. from him? mrs. gibson. yes; that was his favorite word, we were stupid, we weren't using our brains. he'd come up with something like, "how could you possibly say such a thing?" mr. jenner. did you ever pick him up at the jaggars place of business? mrs. gibson. no. mr. jenner. your father and your stepmother now reside in haiti? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. when did they go to haiti? mrs. gibson. last year some time. mr. jenner. june of . mrs. gibson. i don't know. mr. jenner. have you seen your father or your stepmother since then? mrs. gibson. yes; i saw them a couple of weeks ago. mr. jenner. when they were here to testify, they dropped by to see you, did they? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. your husband donald gibson is a native-born american? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. in an interview on december , , you are reported to have said that lee oswald occasionally came to your apartment, of yourself and your husband, and although marina stayed at your apartment, only about weeks, oswald continued to visit on occasions. does that refresh your recollection that this stay of marina at your home was longer than to days? mrs. gibson. it must have been misunderstood. if i had said weeks i must have meant in all, meaning putting all your days together, because i never would have said weeks meaning a solid period of time of weeks. mr. jenner. i think that is about all. i neglected to do this, mrs. gibson. you received a letter from mr. rankin, did you not? mrs. gibson. yes; i did. mr. jenner. general counsel for the commission, with which he enclosed a copy of the legislation, senate joint resolution , authorizing the creation of this commission? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. a copy of president johnson's executive order no. which created the commission? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. and fixed its scope and its powers and its duties and responsibilities, which in general are to investigate the circumstances surrounding leading up to, and involving the assassination of president john fitzgerald kennedy? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. and, also, a copy of the rules and regulations of the commission under which depositions are taken? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. and you understand from all those papers that the commission is interviewing people who had, fortunately, or unfortunately, touched the life of lee harvey oswald and others? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. and we had understood and as has now been revealed you did have a connection with or some connection with the oswalds? mrs. gibson. yes. mr. jenner. which you have now elucidated. i am albert e. jenner, jr., one of the members of the legal staff of the commission, and mr. mosk, who was present earlier, likewise is a member. now, having in mind the objects and purposes and duties of the commission, is there anything that occurs to you that you would like to add that you think would be helpful to the commission in its investigation of this subject? mrs. gibson. no. mr. jenner. all right, that is all i have, and i appreciate very much your coming here today. i know it is a considerable inconvenience. affidavit of ruth hyde paine the following affidavit was executed by ruth hyde paine on june , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy state of texas, _county of dallas, ss_: ruth hyde paine, being affirmed, says: . i reside at west th street, irving, texas. i am the ruth hyde paine who testified before the commission on march , and , , and gave testimony by deposition in washington, d.c. at the offices of the commission on saturday, march , , and gave further testimony by deposition in my home the evening of monday, march , . . on the occasion of saturday, november , , about which i testified before the commission, when i took marina and lee oswald in my station wagon to the texas automobile drivers bureau station in the oak cliff section of dallas, texas, to enable lee oswald to make application for an automobile driver's learner's permit, each of my two children and both of the oswald children, june and rachel, accompanied us. . upon our arrival at the automobile drivers license bureau, which was located in a shopping center area in oak cliff, we discovered that the automobile drivers license bureau was closed. all of us went down the street to a ten cent store which was located approximately three doors down the street from the automobile drivers license bureau station. we entered the store. i purchased some child panties for my children and marina selected and lee paid for an infant's pacifier. . after we made the purchases, all of us returned to my station wagon, entered it, and i drove directly to my home in irving, texas. upon arrival there, all of us entered my home where we remained throughout the balance of that day and evening. marina and lee oswald and their children were present in my home throughout the two following days and evenings, november and , . lee oswald returned to his work at the texas school book depository tuesday morning, november , . i was present in my home throughout november and , , except as described in paragraph . . during the course of my testimony by deposition in washington, d.c. on saturday, march , , mr. jenner examined me with respect to the various entries in my calendar diary, commission exhibit no. , for the period commencing and following september , , including, in particular, those entries respecting baby and child clinic appointments for june oswald and rachel oswald, in clinics in irving, texas, and in dallas, texas, as well as other appointments for june oswald. on all occasions following marina's return to my home from parkland hospital on october , , following the birth of her daughter rachel on october , , when baby clinic, dental and other medical and physical attention appointments for either of marina's children were made, and about which i have heretofore testified, i drove to the clinic or doctor's office in my station wagon accompanied by each of my children and by marina and both of her children. this was so irrespective of which of marina's children was to receive medical or other attention. . there were a number of occasions subsequent to september , , on which marina and both of her children accompanied me when i drove in my station wagon to shops, grocery stores, etc., in and about irving, texas, to do limited shopping or purchase food stuffs. on each of these occasions, we were also accompanied by my children. understandably, marina desired "to get out of the house" and visit with me around irving, texas, when convenient to me. i understood this and often went out of my way to invite her to come with me. she always brought her daughter june and after the birth of her daughter rachel, also brought her. . on none of the above occasions did we shop in or visit or enter any furniture store. this includes the furniture mart, a store that was located at east irving boulevard, irving, texas, which i now understand was owned and operated during its existence by one edith whitworth. . there were only two occasions during all the period in the fall of that i took marina and lee together in my station wagon to dallas, texas, or anywhere in irving, texas. one occasion was a trip to dallas, texas, the morning of november , , which i have mentioned above. (the other is described in paragraph .) i do not know mrs. whitworth. i never visited her place of business, nor did i ever drive lee oswald or marina to that place of business; and, to the best of my knowledge and recollection, marina was never at or in that place of business with or without lee oswald during the period she resided in my home in the fall of . . at no time after marina and i and our children arrived in irving, texas, on september , , from new orleans, louisiana, did i ever take lee oswald or marina oswald to the irving sports shop, which is located at east irving boulevard, irving, texas. i was quite aware during all of this period of marina's activities and where she was. i know of no occasion when either she or lee oswald visited either the furniture mart or the irving sports shop. . there was no occasion during the period marina resided with me in the fall of , of which i was aware or now recollect, that marina rode either in my station wagon or any other automobile or means of conveyance with lee oswald at the wheel. neither the irving sports shop nor mrs. whitworth nor dyal ryder was ever mentioned in my presence by either of the oswalds. . i never drove lee oswald, with or without marina, to any area or place in or about either dallas, fort worth, or irving, texas, to enable lee oswald to engage in rifle practice. i did not know until the afternoon of november , , that he possessed or owned a firearm of any kind or character. at no time prior to november , , did i know or had i heard of anybody by the name of dyal ryder. . lee oswald was not in my home and to the best of my knowledge was not in irving, texas, at any time on november or , . my recollection is clear that on each of those days, as well as november , , marina and her two children, june and rachel, were present in my home day and night. lee oswald arrived at my home from dallas, texas, between : p.m. and : p.m. on november , , for his customary week-end visit, which as to this particular week-end was to extend over through armistice day, november , . except for the trip to dallas, texas, on november , , which i have described above, lee oswald remained in my home from the time of his arrival, the late afternoon of november , , until he departed for dallas, texas, in the early morning of november , . . i was not present in my home for part of the day on november , . as i testified, i made a trip that day, which was armistice day and a holiday, to dallas, texas. i was gone from approximately : a.m. to : p.m. not wishing to burden lee and marina with my children, i had them stay at my neighbors the craigs. marina and lee oswald and their children were in my home when i left and were there when i returned. based upon my conversation with marina and lee oswald, and my understanding of their plans for the day, it is my clear opinion that all of them remained in my home during my trip to and from dallas. . there was one occasion in addition to the occasion of nov. , , which i have described above, that i drove marina and lee in my station wagon to dallas, texas. on monday, october , which was the day before lee oswald obtained a position at the texas school book depository, i drove him to dallas, texas. we were accompanied by marina and her child june as well as by my children. i testified about this event. we left lee oswald off in dallas at ross avenue near lamarr. i then took my typewriter to a shop in dallas for repair and marina and i and our children returned to irving, texas. signed this th day of june . (s) ruth hyde paine, ruth hyde paine. affidavit of m. waldo george the following affidavit was executed by m. waldo george on june , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy state of texas, _county of dallas, ss_: m. waldo george, inverness street, dallas, being duly sworn says: . i am the office manager of tucker manning insurance company. i am the owner of the premises at neeley street, dallas, texas, consisting of two apartments, one upper and one lower. in the latter part of january the upper apartment became vacant and i posted it "for rent" by means of an appropriate sign in the yard in front of the premises. . on march , , i was advised by mrs. george that an individual by the name of "oswald" had inquired about renting the apartment. later that day i met the individual who identified himself as lee h. oswald. i advised him that the rent for the apartment was $ per month, and he rented the apartment on a month-to-month basis, paying me $ in cash for one month's rent in advance. . on april , , i collected $ in cash from oswald, covering rent for the month of april to and including may , . . shortly after this occasion the downstairs tenants, mr. and mrs. george b. gray, called me and informed me that the man in the upstairs apartment was beating his wife. i made no inquiry into this subject matter. . two or three days later, myself and mrs. george called on the oswalds in their apartment and invited them to attend gaston avenue baptist church with us. he informed me and mrs. george that he attended the russian orthodox church although they were not regular in their attendance, because they had to depend on their friends to take them. . during this visit oswald stated that he had met his wife while he was serving in the united states marines as a guard at the united states embassy in russia, and had married his wife in russia. i made direct inquiry of him as to whether he had had any difficulty in getting out of russia with his wife and he said that he had had no difficulty whatsoever. . neither myself or mrs. george saw oswald again at any time thereafter. oswald did not pay rent for the succeeding rental period of may through june , . because my attention was diverted by other matters, i did not go by the apartment to collect the rent for that period until several days after may , . when i arrived at the apartment i found it vacant. signed this th day of june at dallas texas. (s) m. waldo george, m. waldo george. testimony of william kirk stuckey the testimony of william kirk stuckey was taken at : a.m., on june , , at maryland avenue ne., washington, d.c., by mr. albert e. jenner, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. jenner. do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, in your deposition which you are about to give? mr. stuckey. i do. mr. jenner. be seated. state your full name? mr. stuckey. william kirk stuckey. mr. jenner. i regret, mr. stuckey, that we have to inconvenience you to have you back to have your deposition taken again. but through some happenstance in new orleans, the transcript of your deposition never went beyond the u.s. attorney's office apparently, and we appreciate your willingness to come up here and be with us today so that i can depose you again. when i took your deposition before you had received a letter from mr. rankin, had you not? mr. stuckey. no. mr. jenner. i guess i called you when i was down there, didn't i? mr. stuckey. yes; that is correct. mr. jenner. and i explained to you at that time, the time before when i took your deposition, however, the legislation under which the commission was authorized and the executive order of the president creating the commission and the rules and regulations of the commission on the taking of depositions? mr. stuckey. yes; i understand that. mr. jenner. thank you. in effect, we want to inquire of you in particular with respect to the course of events in which you interviewed lee harvey oswald while he was in new orleans in at some radio broadcasts which you, in your professional capacity, that is, your professional business, had organized, had put on, and you had some fairly extended acquaintance with oswald in a professional sense. mr. stuckey. yes. would you like me to tell you from the very first? mr. jenner. well, i think for the very first, for the purpose of the record, identify yourself, who you were then and who you are now, and your profession and business and associations. mr. stuckey. fine. at present i am employed at tulane university as a special writer. in this capacity i write a syndicated column on higher education which tulane distributes to newspapers throughout the country. in august i was a broadcaster with wdsu radio, new orleans. this is the nbc station. i had a weekly -minute radio program on economic and political developments in latin america. i had been in this particular specialty for about years previous. prior to that i was a columnist with new orleans states item, with an interest in latin america. as a result i had been looking for a long time for representatives of the fair play for cuba committee in that area. mr. jenner. if you would excuse me a second, would you give me your formal education because, as i recall in taking your deposition in new orleans, you acquired some interest in south american relations which led you into looking for something on this fair play for cuba committee. mr. stuckey. yes. formal education was a b.s. degree in journalism from southern methodist university in dallas. after graduation i went into the marine corps and completed years of service, after which i spent some months in central america and mexico traveling around, essentially hitchhiking, some walking, some third-class bus riding, in which i acquired a good deal of spanish and an interest in the countries. mr. jenner. what is a third-class bus? mr. stuckey. that is where the goats and chickens aren't on top; they are in there with you. mr. jenner. i see. mr. stuckey. after i returned i went into the newspaper business. mr. jenner. excuse me, how old are you? mr. stuckey. thirty-two. mr. jenner. you are married? mr. stuckey. yes; and---- mr. jenner. do you have a family and you live in new orleans? mr. stuckey. yes. mr. jenner. what is your address? mr. stuckey. state street, and i have two children. i went into the newspaper business after returning from latin america, working largely as a political reporter for a number of years. mr. jenner. were you giving attention to any particular phase of politics? mr. stuckey. local government? mr. jenner. thinking of it in the higher sense--local government. mr. stuckey. you mean in a higher sense, in a subject category? mr. jenner. yes. mr. stuckey. i was interested particularly in planning and zoning. mr. jenner. did you acquire also an interest in south american relations? mr. stuckey. yes; well, i had this interest, but i had no opportunity to exercise this interest in my work until the new orleans states item made me a columnist. this was in february when i started my column, and this extended on until april, i believe it was, . mr. jenner. what was the title of that column? mr. stuckey. new orleans and the americas. that was really my first professional involvement in latin american affairs. after i left the paper, doing public relations, i acquired this radio program, this radio broadcast, which was a very short thing. it was largely to keep my name in front of the public in this capacity. and---- mr. jenner. that was a broadcast program? mr. stuckey. yes. mr. jenner. it was put on regularly, was it? mr. stuckey. once a week. mr. jenner. and it is the nbc station down there? mr. stuckey. yes. mr. jenner. radio and television or just radio? mr. stuckey. radio. mr. jenner. that program had a title? mr. stuckey. yes; latin listening post. mr. jenner. tell us in general the character of that program and to what you were directing your attention. mr. stuckey. politics and economics. i inquired a bit about the cuban situation. i had a number of programs that i think you would classify as news features. they didn't particularly have current events value, but they were interesting topics, and i just went and talked about them. i talked about social welfare programs in uruguay, the mexican revolution; central american common market; the character of the latin american university student, this sort of thing. occasionally, when i had a live one, when i heard there was somebody in town who was a latin bigwig, i would bring him on and we would talk whatever he wanted to talk about. mr. jenner. how did you organize those programs? mr. stuckey. well---- mr. jenner. did you have any preliminary discussions with the people you were going to have on your programs? mr. stuckey. yes, yes; sometimes i took up to to days to prepare a -minute broadcast. mr. jenner. yes. mr. stuckey. actually it is minutes which demands about words, which was just about as long or longer than the column that i used to write, so these columns, words, which would run about a column and a half of type in the paper, consumed within a -minute period on the broadcast. anything else along that line? mr. jenner. i think that covers it generally. tell us the nature of your work with tulane university. mr. stuckey. yes. mr. jenner. you became associated with tulane when? mr. stuckey. in january, january . mr. jenner. of this year? mr. stuckey. yes. mr. jenner. what is the nature of that work? mr. stuckey. i write a syndicated column on higher education. the column is called dimension in education. we deal with all manner of events and affairs affecting higher education, and sometimes things that do not affect higher education. i roam the spectrum of interest in the things. it is extremely interesting. i sometimes write about such things as the common market, the humanities versus science, all this sort of thing, all the current controversies we get into. mr. jenner. is that in the nature of public relations work? mr. stuckey. yes; very soft shell public relations. sometimes we don't even mention tulane. it is just that i think probably tulane just wants to be established as a fount of wisdom in this particular field, and that is why they print these reports. mr. jenner. during the year , did an event occur, a series of events occur, in which you became acquainted with a man by the name of lee harvey oswald? mr. stuckey. yes. mr. jenner. in your own words, taking it from the very first instant of the course of events, perhaps even before you met this man, tell us in your own words, and it doesn't have to be chronological, but the way you would put it out, about it. mr. stuckey. fine. as i told you before, as a latin american columnist and one interested in affairs, i had been looking for some time in new orleans for representatives of the fair play for cuba committee. there haven't been any. most of the organizations that i had contact with in my work---- mr. jenner. excuse me--how did you learn about the fair play for cuba committee? mr. stuckey. i was going to get to that. mr. jenner. all right. mr. stuckey. most of the organizations that i had contact with were refugee organizations, very violently anti-castro groups, and there were a number of them in new orleans. these people were news sources for me also. i used them quite frequently. one day, i think it was in august, the latter part of july of , i was in the bank, and i ran across a refugee friend of mine by the name of carlos bringuier. bringuier told me---- mr. jenner. excuse me--identify mr. bringuier. mr. stuckey. mr. bringuier at that time was the new orleans delegate to the revolutionary student directorate which was an anti-castro group with headquarters in miami. he also ran a clothing store called casa roca. he was an attorney in havana before the revolution, the cuban revolution of , and had been very active ever since i had known him in new orleans in anti-castro activity. i had interviewed him on a number of occasions in connection with cuban current events. mr. bringuier ran into me in the bank, and i spoke to him and he said that a representative of the fair play for cuba committee had appeared in new orleans and that he had had an encounter with him shortly before. mr. jenner. that interested you? mr. stuckey. yes, very much, very much, because i knew something of the reputation of this group. i regarded them as being about the leading pro-castro organization in this country, a propaganda organ for the castro forces, and i had done a considerable amount of reading of congressional testimony, articles, and this sort of thing about their activities. mr. bringuier said he had had an encounter with a young man who was representing the fair play for cuba committee in new orleans. mr. jenner. excuse me--you had known bringuier and you had had contact with him; had he ever been on your program up to this moment that you speak of? mr. stuckey. no; he had never been on my program, but, as a newspaperman, i had contacted him quite frequently for information. mr. jenner. proceed. mr. stuckey. he told me that--this is in the bank--a few days before, i don't recall exactly---- mr. jenner. this was a chance meeting? mr. stuckey. this was a chance meeting with mr. bringuier. i was cashing my paycheck and bringuier told me a few days before he had run into this fellow in his store, this casa roca--this young man had approached him. mr. jenner. a young man had come in? mr. stuckey. a young man. at the time he had mentioned no name. if he had, it wouldn't have made any difference to me because the name meant nothing. he said a young man came in, introduced himself and said he was a veteran of the marine corps, he had just gotten out, and that he was very disturbed by this cuban situation and he wanted to do something about hurting castro, or trying to change the regime. he, in some way---- mr. jenner. this was something this up-to-the-moment unnamed young man had said to mr. bringuier? mr. stuckey. had said to mr. bringuier as bringuier recounted it to me later. i am telling you bringuier's story now. mr. jenner. yes; i wanted to make clear that you were. mr. stuckey. right. now, this young man said somehow he knew bringuier was connected with the revolutionary student directorate, how, i don't know. but, at any rate, as i said, he offered his services. then he presented a marine corps handbook to bringuier. he said, "this might help you out in your guerrilla activities and such. this is my own personal marine corps handbook", which bringuier accepted. that was the gist of the conversation. bringuier told me that sometime after that, i don't recall exactly how long it was, he was walking on canal street, the main street of new orleans, about a block away from his store, and he ran into this young man again. this time he was distributing literature, handbills, and the handbills said, "hands off cuba", and on the handbill it said, "join the fair play for cuba committee in new orleans, charter member branch". it was this same young man. bringuier, who was a rather excitable fellow, and he couldn't understand why this fellow was now distributing pro-castro literature whereas a short time before he had posed as an anti-castro man. so bringuier got into a shouting match with him on the street corner, and i think some blows were exchanged, i am not sure. mr. jenner. bringuier is again telling you this? mr. stuckey. this is what bringuier is telling me, because i did not witness this. at any rate, regardless of what happened, i don't know the exact sequence of events, the police arrived on the scene and took everybody down to the jail. oswald was booked for disturbing the peace, and i think later fined $ , and let go. well, this is what bringuier told me in the bank. mr. jenner. i may assume up to this moment you had not seen anything in the newspapers on this subject? mr. stuckey. no; i hadn't. there wouldn't have been anything in the newspaper had it not been in my column, and my column at that time did not exist. mr. jenner. i see. mr. stuckey. so i mentioned to bringuier that i was interested in locating this fellow and talking to him. bringuier gave me his name. mr. jenner. do you recall that this was the early part of august? mr. stuckey. or the latter part of july, i am not really sure. it wasn't--i would say probably the early part of august. it was a friday. i can tell you that. mr. jenner. it was august , . mr. stuckey. that is quite possible. so i inquired as to the name and the address of this fellow, and telephone, if any, and bringuier said his name was lee oswald, and he lived on magazine street, somewhere in the block, i forget the exact address, and he had no telephone. this was a friday. my program is on a saturday. i decided that early the next morning i would go by this address and ask oswald if he would appear on my program. so very early, it was about o'clock the following--wait a minute, i am losing some chronology. this was not the next saturday. then some time elapsed, and, at any rate, it was august when i went by his house. i forget now exactly why this time did elapse, but it did. mr. jenner. had he again distributed handbills? mr. stuckey. to my knowledge; no. he may have. he may have. but, of course, i had no particular interest in it, and the papers were not carrying stories about it, and i, well, just had no contact with him at all. i did not meet him until august , at which time i went by his house on magazine street to ask him to appear on my program. this was early in the morning, about o'clock. i went early because i wanted to get him before he left. mr. jenner. this was a saturday? mr. stuckey. it is a saturday. i knocked on the door, and this young fellow came out, without a shirt. he had a pair of marine corps fatigue trousers on. i asked him, "are you lee oswald?" and he said "yes." i introduced myself and i told him i would like to have him on my program that night. so he asked me in on the porch. this was a screened porch, and i had a very brief chat. he said he would ask me inside for some coffee but that his wife and his baby were sleeping so we had better talk on the porch. mr. jenner. describe this magazine street place. were you able to find it easily? mr. stuckey. yes; no problem. it was on the side of the house--or the entrance was on the side. mr. jenner. was on the side and somewhat back from the front? mr. stuckey. yes; it was facing the street; it wasn't facing the side of the property, but it was offset, to the rear. mr. jenner. frame house? mr. stuckey. yes; it was a frame house, as well as i recall. mr. jenner. yes. mr. stuckey. so we had a few cursory remarks there about the organization. he showed me his membership card to the fair play for cuba committee, which was interesting, and it identified him as the secretary of the new orleans chapter of the fair play for cuba committee, and it was signed by a. hidell, president. mr. jenner. was that president or secretary? mr. stuckey. president, a. hidell. he was identified on the card, as i recall, as the secretary. mr. jenner. that is, oswald? mr. stuckey. oswald; yes. it was a card on which there was a handwritten--it said "mr." and then a blank, and a handwritten name "lee oswald" was in the center of the card. in the lower right-hand corner it was signed by a. hidell, president. mr. jenner. was this name familiar to you? mr. stuckey. no; as a matter of fact, i would like to explain this, that the name meant nothing to me at all, and the name never occurred to me again, i never thought of the name again, until after the assassination when mr. henry wade of dallas on television on a sunday, i believe, mentioned that oswald purchased a rifle from a chicago mail-order house and had used the name a. hidell in purchasing the rifle. when he said "a. hidell" it hit me like, it was like a light bulb over my head, i recalled the name. otherwise i would never have remembered the name. oswald gave me some pieces of literature at this time. there were several--i will mention them if you would like. mr. jenner. i wish you would. mr. stuckey. there were two speeches by fidel castro. one was "the revolution must be a school of unfettered thought." another was "bureaucracy and sectarianism." there was a pamphlet by jean paul sartre, and this pamphlet was called "ideology and revolution." there was a pamphlet called "the crime against cuba," by corliss lamont. i believe that is all the literature that he gave me at that time. i got some subsequently to that which, incidentally, mr. jenner. i promised you that pamphlet the last time i saw you, and i couldn't find it, but i have since found it, and i brought it up for you. i will give it to you now before i forget. mr. jenner. yes. i will show you what is marked garner exhibit no. and ask you if you recognize the person shown on that photograph. mr. stuckey. yes; that is lee oswald. mr. jenner. does it look like him as of the time that you interviewed him on saturday, august ? mr. stuckey. almost exactly. he was dressed almost in exactly the same way, with a short-sleeved dress shirt, and a tie, and a black looseleaf notebook under his arm which apparently he used as a holder for literature. mr. jenner. i hand you a series of exhibits, pizzo exhibits nos. -a, -b, and -c. would you examine those and tell me whether your friend, mr. bringuier, is shown on any of those photographs? mr. stuckey. he is not there. mr. jenner. you were referring to pizzo exhibit no. -a; he is not on that one? mr. stuckey. no. pizzo exhibit -c is of oswald alone. mr. jenner. pizzo exhibit -c is a picture of oswald? mr. stuckey. yes. pizzo exhibit -b is also oswald, but bringuier is not in the picture. mr. jenner. all right. we will mark the pamphlet you have brought with you, which is entitled "the cuban 'episode' and the american press: april - , " as stuckey exhibit no. . (the pamphlet was marked stuckey exhibit no. for identification.) mr. jenner. handing you stuckey exhibit no. , being a -page pamphlet--i guess it is including the back cover--is that one of the pamphlets that he handed to you and exhibited to you on august and saturday morning when you interviewed him in his home? mr. stuckey. no; this is not one. i received this pamphlet that night when he showed up at the radio station. mr. jenner. we will go into it later on, but i think for purposes of identification, was it a pamphlet that he gave you? mr. stuckey. yes; he gave it to me. mr. jenner. prior to the radio broadcast you are about to describe? mr. stuckey. immediately prior to that. incidentally, i requested all the literature that he had. mr. jenner. you did? mr. stuckey. yes; and he gave me everything he could find that morning which were the four or five pieces i have already described. then at night he says, "look, i found this also", and he brought this. mr. jenner. meaning stuckey exhibit no. ? mr. stuckey. stuckey exhibit no. . mr. jenner. i offer stuckey exhibit no. in evidence. all right, we had you still on saturday morning talking with him at his home on magazine street. mr. stuckey. right. we discussed literature, his literature, the pieces of information i have already described. he showed me the fair play for cuba committee membership card. i asked him about the membership of this organization, and he said there were quite a few, quite a few members. the figure or sticks in my head. i don't really recall why now. there were that many officers or something like that, or people he mentioned that he was responsible to, or active workers, something like that, although i guess i shouldn't mention it until i have a more coherent idea of why he used that. mr. jenner. just give your best recollection of what he said on that occasion. mr. stuckey. right. also as i recall, he was very vehement, insisting he was not the president, but was the secretary, and that was the occasion in which he pulled out his card showing that he was the secretary, not the president, and this other gentleman, hidell, was the president. mr. jenner. did that strike you in any special way that he was apparently careful to point out to you that he was secretary instead of president? mr. stuckey. no; it made no impression on me, none whatsoever. it seemed logical. he appeared to be a very logical, intelligent fellow, and the only strange thing about him was his organization. this was, seemed, incongruous to me that a group of this type--or he should associate with a group of this type, because he did not seem the type at all, or at least what i have in my mind as the type. i would like to mention this. i was arrested by his cleancutness. i didn't expect this at all. i expected a folk-singer type, something of that kind, somebody with a beard and sandals, and he said--i found this fellow, instead i found this fellow who was neat and clean, watched himself pretty well. mr. jenner. you mean he watched his---- mr. stuckey. he seemed to be very conscious about all of his words, all of his movements, sort of very deliberate. he was very deliberate with his words, and struck me as being rather articulate. he was the type of person you would say would inspire confidence. this was the incongruity that struck me, the fact that this type of person should be with this organization. that is the gist of the first meeting. i asked him to meet me at the radio station that afternoon about o'clock for the interview, and he agreed. mr. jenner. this was to be an interview preliminary to a broadcast? mr. stuckey. well, this was to be a recorded interview prior to the broadcast. mr. jenner. why would you do that? mr. stuckey. to avoid the possibility of errors. it is a risky business going on live. you know, you never know when you are going to slip up and, particularly, with somebody as controversial as a representative of the fair play for cuba committee you want to know what you have in hand before you put it on. during that day i thought quite a bit about oswald before he arrived at the station for the interview, and i was interested in his articulateness and in discussing this organization, so i had decided during the day that instead of just interviewing him for minutes, which was the length of my program, that i would just let him talk as long as he wanted to. mr. jenner. in the private interview with you? mr. stuckey. yes; but record it. mr. jenner. yes; of course. mr. stuckey. yes. and then i thought after doing that i could take some excerpts out for a -minute program, and then ask the management at the station if they would be interested in running the whole thing in toto as a demonstration of the line of this organization. so this was the decision i made before the broadcast. i drew up a lengthy list of questions, and then i met him that afternoon about o'clock at the studios of wdsu, royal street, new orleans. mr. jenner. that is in the french quarter, is it not? mr. stuckey. in the french quarter. he was dressed exactly as he is shown in this picture. mr. jenner. garner exhibit no. . mr. stuckey. which is exhibit no. , short-sleeved dress shirt with a tie, a black looseleaf notebook under his arm. there were no preliminary remarks particularly. we just went immediately into the studio. it was at this point that he gave me this pamphlet. mr. jenner. stuckey exhibit no. . mr. stuckey. yes. mr. jenner. is that correct? mr. stuckey. that is correct. and we were seated--this conversation was witnessed or listened to by an engineer in wdsu by the name of al campin. mr. jenner. was that prearranged? mr. stuckey. well, you have to have an engineer to record it. mr. jenner. i see. mr. stuckey. he just happened to be there operating the equipment, but he was, i mean he was, there, as a witness, and was greatly interested in it, because like me he hadn't run across too many of these birds, and we were curious to see how they thought and why. so at that time then we began a long rambling recorded interview which lasted minutes, covered a wide range of subjects. naturally, a lot of the subjects had to do with cuba. we discussed the problem of the refugees leaving cuba, we discussed as to whether or not castro was an independent ruler of an independent nation or whether he was merely the head of a colony which was the line that i took. mr. jenner. head of a colony? mr. stuckey. yes; a russian colony, cuba. this was the line that i took in this questioning. we discussed the economic situation in cuba, as to what had happened to the economy since castro took over. we discussed a few abstracts. i asked him the definition of "democracy," which was interesting to me. mr. jenner. do you have a transcript of that interview? mr. stuckey. i do. mr. jenner. have you brought one with you? mr. stuckey. yes. mr. jenner. may i have it, please? mr. stuckey. incidentally, i have a letter here that you may or may not be interested in. father clancy is the chairman of the political science department at loyola university in new orleans. i sent him this transcript as a catholic and as a political science man just to see what his opinion was, and he went much stronger than i ever did after reading that, but the last paragraph, i thought, was interesting, and i thought you might be interested in reading the letter. mr. jenner. the witness has furnished me a -page document on light-weight, green-tinted paper. the first page is entitled "transcript of taped interview between william k. stuckey and lee harvey oswald, august , ," and the last page of which, the last three lines of which, read: "stuckey: tonight we have been talking with lee h. oswald, secretary of the fair play for cuba committee, new orleans," et cetera. "(standard close.)" i wonder if you would be good enough, mr. stuckey, to initial each of these pages. we will mark this as stuckey exhibit no. . i suggest you put your initials at the bottom. (the document was marked stuckey exhibit no. for identification.) mr. jenner. the witness has now placed his initials at the foot of each of the pages of the transcript. when and how was this document prepared, stuckey exhibit no. ? mr. stuckey. i typed it. mr. jenner. you typed it as you were listening to your tape? mr. stuckey. yes. mr. jenner. you have also brought with you the actual original tape of this interview? mr. stuckey. yes. mr. jenner. that is the radio tape? mr. stuckey. yes. mr. jenner. and this -page document is a literal transcription or translation of that tape? mr. stuckey. yes; there are some errors, but they are very, very small errors, largely typographical errors. mr. jenner. prepared by you? mr. stuckey. yes. mr. jenner. would you look at the -page document, and if there are any errors other than obvious typographical errors which you would like to draw to our attention, i wish you would do it. you were going to look through it and see if there were---- mr. stuckey. i can tell you in advance there are no errors in fact, and no deletions, with the exception of this last paragraph which i abbreviated by saying "standard close." all that was, was i would have been talking with lee harvey oswald--"this is bill stuckey, latin listening post. good night"--that is all that was, no facts at all. mr. jenner. the words ("standard close") appearing on the last line of page is a shorthand way of your designating your customary signoff? mr. stuckey. yes; correct. mr. jenner. all right. i offer in evidence stuckey exhibit no. . mr. stuckey. i was going to refer to this definition of "democracy" that he gave. mr. jenner. yes. mr. stuckey. are you interested in it? mr. jenner. yes. mr. stuckey. this is interesting to me for a number of reasons, not just the meaning but how adept this fellow was at taking a question, any question, and distorting it for his own purposes, saying what he wanted to say while making you think that he was answering your question. he was expert in dialectics. "stuckey: what's your definition of democracy?" mr. jenner. you are reading from stuckey exhibit no. now? mr. stuckey. correct. "oswald: my definition--well, the definition of democracy--that's a very good one. that's a very controversial viewpoint. you know, it used to be very clear, but now it is not. you know, when our forefathers drew up the constitution they considered that democracy was creating an atmosphere of freedom of discussion, of argument, of finding the truth; these rights, well, the classic rights of having life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness. in latin america they have none of those rights, none of them at all, and that is my definition of democracy, the right to be in a minority and not to be suppressed; the right to see for yourself without government restrictions such countries as cuba, and we are restricted from going to cuba." the question was, "what is your definition of democracy?", and we discussed the passport ban as part of the definition. mr. jenner. in other words, he did not respond to your question? mr. stuckey. no; except obliquely to make the point. mr. jenner. did you find that he did that--it will appear, of course, in that transcript---- mr. stuckey. constantly throughout the interview. mr. jenner. in your discussions with him he parried your questions by not answering them. mr. stuckey. he would--his general attack would be "i am glad you asked that question, it is very good," and then he would proceed to talk about what he wanted to talk about, and completely ignore your questions on occasions. so there were at least half a dozen examples of that. mr. jenner. in the transcript which you have furnished? mr. stuckey. yes. mr. jenner. did you supply a copy of that transcript to anyone else prior to your bringing stuckey exhibit no. today? mr. stuckey. yes; i did. mr. jenner. to whom? mr. stuckey. to the federal bureau of investigation. mr. jenner. when you were interviewed by the fbi you supplied the fbi with a transcript? mr. stuckey. no; as a matter of fact i gave the tape to the fbi the monday following the interview, which would have been august , . i told them i thought it was very interesting, and if they would like to have a transcript they could copy it, which they did. they made a copy and then they gave me a copy of their transcript, and returned the tape to me. mr. jenner. but stuckey exhibit no. is the one that you prepared? mr. stuckey. correct. mr. jenner. and not one that the fbi prepared. mr. stuckey. correct. mr. jenner. all right. this was on saturday afternoon. were you scheduled to go on the air that evening? mr. stuckey. yes; my broadcast time is : . i met him about , about two and a half hours in advance. mr. jenner. had you contemplated that the broadcast that evening would be a discourse only between you and lee harvey oswald? mr. stuckey. yes. mr. jenner. is that the way it developed? mr. stuckey. that is the way it developed. mr. jenner. what was the nature of that broadcast? i should say to you we have from--what is the radio station? mr. stuckey. wdsu. mr. jenner. from wdsu we have obtained a copy of that tape. mr. stuckey. now, you mean of this tape? mr. jenner. no. mr. stuckey. because i don't think they have a copy of that tape. mr. jenner. no; the broadcast that evening i am talking about. mr. stuckey. is that right? they located it? mr. jenner. yes. mr. stuckey. because i tried to find a copy of that mainly to take it off the market and never did locate it. i couldn't find it. this must be a recent development. mr. jenner. yes; but despite that would you tell us about that broadcast? mr. stuckey. yes. as i said, this was a -minute, rambling interview between oswald and myself, and following the interview, first we played it back to hear it. he was satisfied. mr. jenner. that is, you played back the tape of which exhibit no. is a transcript? mr. stuckey. correct; oswald was satisfied. i think he thought he had scored quite a coup. then i went back over it in his presence and with the engineer's help excerpted a couple of the remarks by oswald in this. i forget now what the excerpts were. it has been so long ago. i think we had his definition of democracy because that, in particular, struck me, and we had a couple of his comments in which he said castro was a free and independent leader of a free and independent state, and the rest of it, as i recall, was largely my summarizing of the other principal points of the -minute interview, and it was broadcast on schedule that night. mr. jenner. you had watered it down in length to how many minutes? mr. stuckey. five minutes. mr. jenner. five minutes? mr. stuckey. actually - / . mr. jenner. so you took the portions of your -minute interview, which we now have a transcript of, which is exhibit no. , and boiled that down to - / minutes? mr. stuckey. correct. mr. jenner. and that was a radio broadcast? mr. stuckey. yes. mr. jenner. that evening. all right. was that your last contact with mr. oswald? mr. stuckey. no; it was not. mr. jenner. following the broadcast did you have any further conversation with him, that evening? mr. stuckey. that evening; no. the only thing that did transpire was i told him that i was going to talk to the news director to see if the news director was interested in running the entire -minute tape later, and i told him to get in touch with me, oswald to get in touch with me monday, and i would let him know what the news director said, and that was all the conversation we had that night, and he went his way. i did just that the next monday, i called the news director and asked him if he had heard the tape, and he said no. i asked him if he was interested in running it. i told him i thought it was pretty interesting, and he said, for some reason, he thought that it would be more spectacular a little bit--there would be more public interest if we did not run this tape at all, but instead arrange a second program, a debate panel show, with some local anti-communists on there to refute some of his arguments, which i did. which i did--i arranged a debate show for a regular radio feature that wdsu has called "conversation carte blanche." this is a -minute public affairs program that runs daily. it is almost always interviews of people in the news locally or this sort of thing. i was in charge of arranging the panel, so i picked mr. edward s. butler. mr. jenner. tell us who he is. mr. stuckey. he is the executive director of the information council of the americas in new orleans. mr. jenner. what is that organization? mr. stuckey. it is an anti-communist propaganda organization. their principal activity is to take tape-recorded interviews with cuban refugees or refugees from iron curtain countries, and distribute these tapes which are naturally, it goes without saying, these tapes are very strongly anti-communist, and they distribute these tapes to radio stations throughout latin america. as i recall, they came to have over stations using these tapes regularly. well, mr. butler is a friend of mine. i knew him as a columnist, and it just seemed like---- mr. jenner. he was an articulate and knowledgeable man in this area to which he directs his attention? mr. stuckey. yes; so i asked him to be one of the panelists on the show, which he accepted, and, incidentally, i let him hear the -minute tape in advance; and for the other panelist i asked mr. bringuier, mr. carlos bringuier, that we mentioned earlier, as being the man who led me to oswald--i asked him to appear on the show to give it a little cuban flavor. and then oswald called me after it was arranged, and i told him we were going to arrange the show and would he be interested, and he said, yes, indeed, and then he said, "how many of you am i going to have to fight?" that was his version of saying how many are on the panel. mr. jenner. he said this to you? mr. stuckey. yes; in a jocular way. mr. jenner. where did this take place, on the telephone? mr. stuckey. on the telephone; yes. this was monday or tuesday, the th or the th of august, whenever it was that i had informed him of the show. mr. jenner. had he called you? mr. stuckey. yes; i gave him my office number so he called me at a prearranged time. he was very punctual, very punctual. he was always there on time, all those calls came on time. so i informed him about this debate show and he agreed. he said he thought that would be interesting. then the next time i see him is on the afternoon of august , wednesday. i believe this was about : . mr. jenner. was this to be a preliminary session also? mr. stuckey. yes--well, no; this was to be a live program. the conversation carte blanche panel show is not to be prerecorded as the other one was. mr. jenner. i appreciate that, but i was just talking about your meeting with him on wednesday afternoon, the st, at : . the program went on at what time? mr. stuckey. at : . mr. jenner. i see. it was not long before the program. mr. stuckey. no. mr. jenner. it was not a preliminary interview such as you had had, which is transcribed as stuckey exhibit no. ? mr. stuckey. no; there were some comments of which i will tell you later. mr. jenner. all right. mr. stuckey. i would like to add this, this is very interesting, and gave a little bit of spice to this encounter. during that day, wednesday, august , one of my news sources called me up and said, "i hear you are going to have oswald on carte blanche." i said, "yes, that is right." he said, "we have some information about mr. oswald, the fact that he lived in russia for years." he had omitted reference to this in the -minute previous interview, and in all of our conversations. mr. jenner. he had never mentioned that subject prior to that? mr. stuckey. as a matter of fact, he gives an account of his background in here. mr. jenner. in stuckey exhibit no. ? mr. stuckey. right; in which he completely omits this. would you like me to read it? mr. jenner. yes; you have turned to a particular page? mr. stuckey. yes; i will be reading from this. here is my question. "stuckey:"---- mr. jenner. maybe we can identify the page. mr. stuckey. this will be page . mr. jenner. page of stuckey exhibit no. . mr. stuckey. my question was: "mr. oswald, i am curious about your personal background. if you could tell something about where you came from, your education and your career to date, it would be interesting. "oswald:"--this is his reply--"i would be very happy to. i was born in new orleans in . for a short length of time during my childhood i lived in texas and new york. during my junior high school days i attended beauregard junior high school. i attended that school for years. then i went to warren eastern high school, and i attended that school for over a year. then my family and i moved to texas where we have many relatives, and i continued my schooling there. i entered the united states marine corps in . i spent years in the united states marine corps working my way up through the ranks to the position of buck sergeant, and i served honorably having been discharged. then i went back to work in texas and have recently arrived in new orleans with my family, with my wife and my child." there is his answer. he omits the years in russia by saying that, referring to the fact that, after leaving the marine corps he says he went to texas and then to new orleans. you will note in there he lied about his rank he achieved in the marine corps. why, i don't know. as far as i know he was just a pfc. mr. jenner. he never rose any higher. mr. stuckey. and, as i recall, he did not go to warren eastern high school over a year. mr. jenner. you have become aware he attended beauregard only year rather than ? mr. stuckey. yes. mr. jenner. that he attended warren eastern about weeks or months. mr. stuckey. that was my impression. i mention this because with this in mind, this is why it was so interesting to me to find out on that day, august , that he had lied to me, that he had, in fact, lived in russia for years, and had just recently returned, and this individual who called me and gave me this information gave me dates of washington newspaper clippings that i could check, which were stories about his leaving for russia, or rather his appearance in moscow in . mr. jenner. now, this information came to you between the time of your interview transcribed as stuckey exhibit no. and the st of august when you were about to put on your debate program, the discussion program? mr. stuckey. that is correct. mr. jenner. did this come to you sufficiently in advance to enable you to do some checking vis-a-vis newspaper or articles? mr. stuckey. yes. mr. jenner. and was he unaware when he came in at : on the afternoon of wednesday that you had done this, had received this information and had done some research? mr. stuckey. he was unaware of that fact. during that day mr. butler called, after i had already been tipped off about his russian residence, mr. butler called and said he too had found out the same thing, i think later; his source apparently was the house un-american activities committee or something like that. at any rate, we thought this was very interesting and we agreed together to produce this information on the program that night. mr. jenner. you were going to face him on the program with this? mr. stuckey. unawareness. mr. jenner. you thought it might be a bombshell and be unaware to him. mr. stuckey. exactly. mr. jenner. all right. mr. stuckey. and we decided it would be me who would do it as the introducing participant. so at about : that afternoon i arrived at the studio alone. oswald appeared, and in a very heavy gray flannel suit, and this is august in new orleans, it is extremely hot, that he appears in a very heavy gray flannel suit, very bulky, badly cut suit, and looking very hot and uncomfortable. he had a blue shirt on and a dark tie, and a black looseleaf notebook. mr. jenner. the same one he had had before? mr. stuckey. as far as i know. we shook hands, passed a few pleasantries, nothing much of importance. mr. jenner. were the others present? mr. stuckey. no; they arrived a little bit later. oswald was there first, as usual on time, and then mr. butler came in with mr. bringuier. both looked as if they had pounds and pounds of literature with them, and statistics. mr. jenner. did bringuier and oswald recognize each other? mr. stuckey. oh, yes. mr. jenner. and it was apparent to you they were acquainted? mr. stuckey. oh, yes; indeed. mr. jenner. and that oswald was acquainted with bringuier and vice versa? mr. stuckey. right. mr. jenner. had oswald met mr. butler before? mr. stuckey. i don't know if he had or not. it was my impression that he had not, but i think he knew who he was. oswald asked me something about the organization, and i told him, i said, "well, it is just like your organization; it is a propaganda outfit, just on the other side of the fence," and that satisfied his curiosity. i think he immediately kissed it off as a hopeless rightist organization, "you can't reason with those people," that approach. so it was a somewhat touchy exchange there between bringuier and oswald in the studio. bringuier, as well as i recall, started out with a remark like this, saying, "you know, i thought you were a very nice boy. you really made a good impression on me when i first met you." referring to oswald's visit to bringuier in the store when oswald was posing as an anti-castro enthusiast, and bringuier said, "i cannot understand how you have let yourself become entangled with this group." he said, "i don't think you know what you are doing." oswald said something to the effect that, "i don't think you know what you are doing," and back and forth such as this. bringuier said, "anytime you want to get out of your organization and join mine there is a place for you," and he says, "i hope one day you will see the light." and again oswald says, "i hope you see the light," and that was about all there was to that. butler didn't say anything to him particularly. it was just pleasantries, "how do you do," and such. mr. jenner. how old a man is butler? mr. stuckey. butler is in his late twenties, he is or . mr. jenner. is he an educated man? mr. stuckey. college, as far as i know. he is advertising, public relations man before he went into the propaganda business, and that was about the extent of the exchanges prior to the broadcast. then i left to go back to the newsroom, which was a different room from the room where we were sitting, to get bill slatter, who is the official moderator of the program, and we came back and picked up our participants and went into the broadcast room. as i recall, in opening the show bill slatter said that myself and he would be talking to three other people. in other words, i was not considered a panelist, but there were two station people and three panel people. this was the way it was explained, and slatter turned the program over to me after a very brief introduction and description of oswald and a brief capsule of his background in new orleans to date, and then he turned the show over to me, and i gave a several-minute description of the organization, mr. oswald and his activities in new orleans up to that time, and then i pulled the russian thing on him. i did mention--i think i did it this way, i said: "mr. oswald, in the previous interview, gave me a description of his background. he told me this and that and this and that, but he omitted some information, to the best of my knowledge," and i mentioned that that day some newspaper clippings had come to my attention about his residence in russia, and i said, "is this true, mr. oswald?"; and oswald said, "yes." mr. jenner. would you mark what i hand you, mr. reporter, as stuckey exhibit no. . (the item was marked stuckey exhibit no. for identification.) mr. stuckey. you may be interested in knowing that the information council of the americas, mr. butler's organization, has since made a record out of this debate, and just released it about weeks ago, called "self-portrait in red." mr. jenner. i am going to hand you, to refresh your recollection, if it needs refreshing, a -page document which i have marked for purposes of identification only as stuckey exhibit no. . each of these pages bears the figure in red ink at the bottom. it is also known here as, that is, around here, as commission document no. b. the pages are numbered at the top through , inclusive. it purports to be a transcript of a tape recording of your broadcast of the evening about which you speak, a debate on august , . we have obtained from the radio station, wdsu, a duplicate of the tape itself. would you take a look at this transcript and perhaps, if you will run through it, tell us whether it is, to your recollection, a transcript of your program that night? mr. stuckey. i would like to say this about this transcript. i think it is very unfair. these people have put in all of oswald's hesitations, his "er's," and that sort of thing. i notice when the ap ran an account of this after the assassination they had done all of this on oswald. they were apparently trying to make him look stupid. everybody else was using the "er's," but they didn't put those in. mr. jenner. i will say it is a transcript--your attention is drawn to the fact that the hesitations of oswald are included, but the hesitations of, let us say, even yourself and the other participants, are not. mr. stuckey. are not. mr. jenner. and in that sense it is in some measure a distortion of the actual tape. mr. stuckey. a slight distortion. i think it is an unfair thing. mr. jenner. well, we have the actual tape so the hesitations will appear, and what i was using this primarily for is to afford you an opportunity, if you wish to use it, to refresh your recollection of this program. what were some of the things that you now recall that struck you about this dissertation? mr. stuckey. well, of course, the principal thing that came out on that program, aside from the russian residence, the most striking thing was his admission that he was a marxist. we asked him if he was a communist--we were always doing this--he was very clever about avoiding the question. he would usually say, "as i said before, i belong to no other organization other than the fair play for cuba committee." so we asked him this question, of course, and he gave us that answer, and i asked, "are you a marxist?"; and he said, "yes." otherwise, it was--the program was largely speeches by bringuier and butler, and oswald did not have a chance to ramble much or to talk much as he had earlier, and most of his answers are rather short. mr. jenner. did you get into a discussion of democracy and communism and marxism and then the distinctions? mr. stuckey. yes, yes. mr. jenner. the distinctions between them? mr. stuckey. a brief discussion. we asked him, i say "we," i mean mr. butler asked him the difference between being a marxist and being a communist, and this was a typical oblique oswald answer. he says, "it is the same difference between ghana and guinea, and even in great britain they have socialized medicine," and that is about the extent of the answer. mr. jenner. what impression did you have as to this man's deep or fundamental appreciation of marxism, democracy, communism, fascism, socialism, as the case might be? mr. stuckey. it was my impression he had done a great deal of reading. mr. jenner. did you have an impression that his knowledge--that he was, if i may use this expression, that he had a superficial knowledge as distinguished from a close study with a critical leader or teacher pointing out to him the fundamental distinctions between these systems? mr. stuckey. it would be difficult to say. it was apparent he was acquainted with a wide body of facts and he knew appropriate words and such from historical points concerning the development of marxism. mr. jenner. you see i am seeking your impression at the time and not one that you have formed since. mr. stuckey. yes; right. well, i had not run across many marxists in my time, and i guess this was about the first professional marxist i had run across, and he impressed me as knowing something about the subject. but again it was difficult to appraise the full measure of his learning because of his oblique way of answering questions and dodging questions whenever he did not want to speak about a particular point. i would hesitate to say whether it was superficial or not. i just don't know that much about it. mr. jenner. give me your impression of his demeanor. mr. stuckey. confident. mr. jenner. confident, self-assured? mr. stuckey. self-assured, logical. mr. jenner. able to handle questions? mr. stuckey. very well qualified to handle questions, articulate. there was a little bit of a woodenness in his voice at times, and a little stiff. this was another impression of mine about oswald, his academic manner. if he could use a six-syllable word---- mr. jenner. you mean demeanor? mr. stuckey. demeanor; yes. if he could use a six-syllable word instead of a two-syllable word, he would do so. now that characteristic in itself would not tend to make it that his learning was superficial. mr. jenner. did you have the impression he searched for the multisyllable word? mr. stuckey. yes, yes; as i say, he would prefer that. i don't know why--of course, this is all hindsight, but it occurred to me he would be the type of man who would not use the word, say, "murder," when he could use something a little more formal like "act of violence," this sort of thing. it was, as a matter of fact, his manner was sort of quasi-legal. it was almost as if he had--as if he were a young attorney. he seemed to be very well acquainted with the legal terminology dealing with constitutional rights. mr. jenner. did this discussion become heated? mr. stuckey. yes; it did. it got rather heated. mr. butler, in particular, more or less took the offensive, and attempted to trip him up a few times on questions, questions about the nature of marxism and of the nature of the castro regime and this sort of thing, and mr. oswald handled himself very well, as usual. i think that we finished him on that program. i think that after that program the fair play for cuba committee, if there ever was one in new orleans, had no future there, because we had publicly linked the fair play for cuba committee with a fellow who had lived in russia for years and who was an admitted marxist. the interesting thing, or rather the danger involved, was the fact that oswald seemed like such a nice, bright boy and was extremely believable before this. we thought the fellow could probably get quite a few members if he was really indeed serious about getting members. we figured after this broadcast of august , why, that was no longer possible. mr. jenner. the broadcast ran approximately how long? mr. stuckey. twenty-five minutes. mr. jenner. and after the broadcast broke up was that the last of your contacts with oswald? mr. stuckey. no; it wasn't. the others left, and oswald looked a little dejected, and i said, "well, let's go out and have a beer," and he says, "all right." so we left the studio and went to a bar called comeaux's bar. it is about a half-block from the studio and this was the first time that his manner kind of changed from the quasi-legal position, and he relaxed a little bit. this was the first time i ever saw him relaxed and off of his guard. we had about an hour's conversation, minutes to an hour, maybe a little more, maybe a little less, and, by the way, i mentioned his suit being rather gawky cut, and he told me afterward the suit was purchased in russia, and they didn't know much about making clothes over there. would you like me to tell you about the conversation? mr. jenner. yes; i would. mr. stuckey. we covered a number of points because i was relaxed, as far as i was concerned professionally i had no other occasion to contact oswald. he was off the spot. so we just had a little conversation. during that conversation he told me that he was reading at that time about indonesian communism, and that he was reading everything he could get his hands on. he offered an opinion about sukarno, that he was not really a communist, that he was merely an opportunist who was using the communists. we had a discussion about alcohol. i noticed he wasn't doing very good with his beer, and it was a hot night, and he made a reference to that. he said, "well, you see, i am not used to drinking beer. i am a vodka drinker." and he said, "my father-in-law taught me how to drink vodka," and then he proceeded to tell me that his father-in-law, who was the father of his wife marina, was a russian army colonel, and mentioned that as an army colonel he earned quite a bit more money than oswald was earning in russia. oswald told me at that time he was making about rubles a month as a factory worker, whereas his father-in-law, the colonel, was making something like rubles a month, so he could afford all the vodka he wanted, and he says that is who taught him to drink vodka. may i refresh my memory---- mr. jenner. yes. mr. stuckey. with some notes? mr. jenner. yes. you have mentioned marina for the first time when you cited her a moment ago. had he mentioned her prior to that time? mr. stuckey. not by name. he only referred to her as "my wife." mr. jenner. had he identified her as to her origin here or in russia? mr. stuckey. yes; this was afterward. naturally when we brought up this business about the russian residence, he mentioned she was a russian girl and spoke no english. he said that was the way he wanted it because it gave him an opportunity to keep up his russian. he wanted to keep his russian up, and so they spoke nothing but russian in the home. mr. jenner. did he say anything about having any family? mr. stuckey. he mentioned a wife and child. now on the first broadcast on saturday the th he mentioned, you will recall, in that brief digest of his background, he said he had been in the marine corps and then had left and gone to texas and had recently arrived in new orleans with his wife and his child. so in that case he mentioned that he did have a daughter and a wife. i see something i have omitted about the first meeting i had with him on the morning of august th. mr. jenner. all right. mr. stuckey. at his home. mr. jenner. tell us about that. mr. stuckey. he told me at that time he was working as an assistant to a commercial photographer in new orleans. mr. jenner. you made no check on that? mr. stuckey. no; i didn't check him out. mr. jenner. you were not then aware of the fact that, the fact was that he was not an assistant to a commercial photographer. mr. stuckey. no; i was not aware of that. mr. jenner. did he tell you where he was working? mr. stuckey. no. mr. jenner. you were not aware, therefore, at that time he was at that time an oiler or a greaser at the reily coffee co. mr. stuckey. is that correct? mr. jenner. he was out of work at that time, but he had been. mr. stuckey. i never could figure out why he referred to the trade of photography. had he been involved in photography? mr. jenner. when he was in dallas prior to his coming to new orleans in the spring of , he had been an apprentice with a company, jaggars-chiles-stovall, a commercial advertising photographing company that produced advertising materials, mats, and photographs, and that sort of thing. he worked in the darkroom. he had very limited experience. mr. stuckey. that apparently is what he was referring to. mr. jenner. yes. mr. stuckey. here is some additional information if you would like me to bring this out. mr. jenner. yes; go ahead. mr. stuckey. i am going to the conversation after the broadcast of the st, this is with oswald and me at comeaux's bar. i asked him at that time how he became interested in marxism and he said that there are many books on the subject in any public library. i asked him if he, if his family was an influence on him in any way. he says, "no," and he kind of looked a little amused. he said, "no," he says, "they are pretty much typical new orleans types," and that was about all he said. mr. jenner. did he mention his mother? mr. stuckey. no; he didn't. as a matter of fact, when we referred to his family, all his references were in the plural, and it was my impression that he had a mother and a father, sisters, aunts, uncles and everybody, because the general impression was that there were a number of people in the family. i was surprised to find out that it wasn't true, later. mr. jenner. well, he had relatives in new orleans, the murret family. mr. stuckey. i see. mr. jenner. mrs. murret is--marguerite oswald, that is his mother--that was her sister. mr. stuckey. he told me that he had begun to read marx and engels at the age of , but he said the conclusive thing that made him decide that marxism was the answer was his service in japan. he said living conditions over there convinced him something was wrong with the system, and that possibly marxism was the answer. he said it was in japan that he made up his mind to go to russia and see for himself how a revolutionary society operates, a marxist society. mr. jenner. he thought that russia was a marxist society? mr. stuckey. yes. mr. jenner. did you question or discuss with him whether he found that the system in russia was a marxist society or whether it was---- mr. stuckey. yes; he wasn't very pleased apparently with some of the aspects of russian political life. particularly in the factories he said that a lot of the attitudes and this sort of thing was the same sort of attitude that you would find in an american factory. there was a lot of dead-heading, as we say in louisiana. i don't know what your expression is. mr. jenner. goldbricking. mr. stuckey. goldbricking. the boss' relatives on the payrolls at nice salaries. mr. jenner. nepotism. mr. stuckey. nepotism, this sort of thing. anybody with any authority at all would just use it to death to get everybody extra privileges that they could, and a lot of dishonesty, padding of production figures and this sort of thing. he said he wasn't very impressed. mr. jenner. were you curious as to why he had come back to the united states and did you, if you were curious, discuss that subject with him? mr. stuckey. i don't believe i did. as a matter of fact, i wasn't curious at the time. we just accepted the fact that he had. in hindsight we should have asked a lot of questions about him. mr. jenner. the newspaper material that you had read, there was, was there not, something about his dishonorable discharge from the marines? mr. stuckey. no; i don't recall any reference to that in the newspapers. incidentally, oswald had told me and had produced a discharge card that he was honorably discharged from the marine corps. he produced a card showing this. mr. jenner. when had he done that? mr. stuckey. this was the night of the th at the radio station. why he did this i don't know. i forget what the circumstances were. i recognized the card because, after all, i was a marine myself and i had one exactly like it. mr. jenner. did you, in the tete-a-tete in comeaux's bar discuss with him his attempt, when in russia, to renounce his american citizenship? mr. stuckey. no; we didn't, because that was alluded to in the broadcast and, as far as i was concerned, it was satisfactorily answered. mr. jenner. he does respond--you say, and i am now turning to the document identified as stuckey exhibit no. , a transcript of that radio debate--in your preliminary remarks you advert to the fact that you had sought an independent source, washington newspaper clippings--you advert to the fact that mr. oswald, and i am reading, "mr. oswald had attempted to renounce his american citizenship in and become a soviet citizen. "there was another clipping dated saying mr. oswald had returned from the soviet union with his wife and child after having lived there years. mr. oswald, are these correct?" and he responds, "that is correct." i might say for the record that the date is the date that appears in this transcript, but the fact is that it was . that was either a slip of the tongue or it is a typographical error, is that correct? mr. stuckey. i think so. mr. jenner. but in this informal conversation following the broadcast you did not pursue these subjects? mr. stuckey. not those. we discussed other subjects. he made another observation about life in russia. he said things were extremely bland, homogenized. mr. jenner. did he elaborate on that? mr. stuckey. yes; i thought it was interesting. mr. jenner. tell us about that, please. mr. stuckey. he said that nobody--everybody seems to be almost alike in russia because, after all, they had eliminated a lot of the dissenting elements in russian society and had achieved fairly homogenous blend of population as a result. mr. jenner. that was an observation on his part, was it, of an aspect of russian society that disappointed him? mr. stuckey. i don't know. i don't recall him expressing an opinion as to whether he was disappointed by that. it was a comment. his tone was slightly acid as if he did not like it, but again this is my impression. he did say this which was interesting, he said that they wouldn't allow any fair play for cuba committees in russia. mr. jenner. he did? mr. stuckey. yes; he said they just would not because it is the type of organization that russian society would just suppress. mr. jenner. russian society? mr. stuckey. the russian authorities would suppress. mr. jenner. russian authorities suppress any militant organization of this character. mr. stuckey. exactly. mr. jenner. whether it was fair play for cuba or anything else that is militant in the sense of being openly critical of the russian society and russian politics? mr. stuckey. correct. mr. jenner. did he observe on that subject, did he observe in the sense of his feeling that in america you are permitted within the bounds of the constitution to enjoy free speech and criticize your government as distinguished from not being able to do so in russia? mr. stuckey. he didn't add anything other than what i have already said, but the implication was that we can do that here. "after all, you know here i have this organization and i am doing this. they probably would not let me do a similar thing in russia," and this was his tone. mr. jenner. do you have any impression as to his regard or judgment with respect to the government in which he was, whose privileges he was then exercising? mr. stuckey. no; he had given lip service a time or two to the fact that he considered himself a loyal american. he was constantly referring to rights, constitutional rights, and he made some historical references. he illustrated the development of these rights in america. mr. jenner. did this informal conversation at comeaux's bar go on, you said, for about an hour? mr. stuckey. approximately an hour. mr. jenner. was he comfortable in the sense--was he eager, was he pleased---- mr. stuckey. he was relaxed, he was friendly. he seemed to be relieved it was all over. my impression was he was relieved that he did not have to hide the bit about the russian residence any more, and that it had been a strain doing so, because his manner was completely different. there wasn't the stiffness or the guarded words and guarded replies. he seemed fairly open, and i have no reason to believe that everything he told me that night was not true. i think it was true. mr. jenner. was there any difference in his attitude or demeanor with respect to personal self-confidence, for example, in that saturday interview at his home and your interview with him prior to the monday night broadcast, taking that as a base, and comparing it with his attitude in comeaux's bar after you had revealed the fact that he had been in russia and had attempted to defect? mr. stuckey. well, there wasn't any change. he was pretty consistent in his behavior from the very first time i met him until comeaux's bar, so this was the only notable change i observed. the manner was always guarded, even from the very first when he came out on his porch on august in his dungarees, his manner was guarded. mr. jenner. was it guarded in comeaux's? mr. stuckey. no; it was not. mr. jenner. this was much more relaxed? mr. stuckey. considerably. mr. jenner. following that tete-a-tete in comeaux's bar for about an hour, did you ever see oswald after that? mr. stuckey. that was the last time i ever saw him. mr. jenner. when was the next time you heard of oswald? mr. stuckey. on november , . mr. jenner. what was that occasion? mr. stuckey. the assassination of president kennedy. mr. jenner. how was it raised, what brought it to your attention? mr. stuckey. i was watching a tv news broadcast at the time, and they had a bulletin in which they said a suspect had been arrested in the assassination, and they mentioned lee harvey oswald, and i fell to the ground practically; i was surprised. mr. jenner. was there a video tape? mr. stuckey. yes. following the debate show of august , bill slatter, the radio announcer, decided that some news had been made that night on the show, so he took oswald back to the studio to repeat some of the statements he had made on the radio show for video tape. and they interviewed oswald for quite a while, i would say for minutes. but i understand that that night they only ran a brief excerpt of that tape, and the rest of it they threw away. mr. jenner. the station has supplied us with what tape they did not throw away, the video tape. mr. stuckey. they are not throwing away anything at that station any more, by the way, now. mr. jenner. i suppose not. without speculation on your part, if you have a recollection, do you recall whether he was right handed or left handed? mr. stuckey. i don't recall. i don't believe that he ever had the opportunity to use his hand in such a way you could identify it. i never saw him writing. mr. jenner. at least you never noticed it one way or the other? mr. stuckey. no. mr. jenner. did he smoke? mr. stuckey. no; he did not smoke. again, this was part of my--of the impression of him that struck me. he seemed like somebody that took very good care of himself, very prudent, temperate, that sort of person. it was my impression oswald regarded himself as living in a world of intellectual inferiors. mr. jenner. please elaborate on that. and on what do you base that, please? mr. stuckey. well, i base a lot of this on the conversation that we had in comeaux's bar. after all, i had paid some attention to oswald, nobody else had particularly, and he seemed to enjoy talking with somebody he didn't regard as a stupid person, and it was my impression he thought that everybody else he had come in contact with was rather cloddish, and got the impression that he thought that he had--his philosophy, the way he felt about things, all this sort of thing, most people just could not understand this, and only an intelligent or educated person could. i don't mean to say that there was any arrogance in his manner. there was just--well, you can spot intelligence, or at least i can, i think, and this was a man who was intelligent, who was aware that he was intelligent, and who would like to have an opportunity to express his intelligence--that was my impression. mr. jenner. what impression did you obtain of this man with respect to his volatility, that is, did you get any impression that he was quick to anger? mr. stuckey. no; very well-disciplined, as a matter of fact. after all, he had been provoked on several occasions that afternoon by bringuier and butler on the show. mr. jenner. or that evening. mr. stuckey. that evening; yes. and, of course, bringuier's attempt to convert him to the cause of revolutionary students directorate was presented in a rather biting way, and oswald just took it, and just more or less told him that he wasn't interested, whereas other people might have gotten a little mad. after all, you have to recognize that oswald--they were ganging up on him. there were a bunch of us around there. there were three people who disagreed with him, and he was only one man, and the fact that he kept his composure with this type of environment indicates discipline. mr. jenner. that is right. now, i show you a pizzo exhibit no. -a. do you see mr. oswald shown on that exhibit? mr. stuckey. yes. mr. jenner. is there a mark or something over his head? mr. stuckey. yes; there is a green cross of some sort. mr. jenner. all right. there is a man to his left, there is an arrow, a vertical arrow, over that man's head. do you recognize that person? mr. stuckey. no. mr. jenner. far to the left, the most extreme left, of the picture is another man with dark glasses on. he has a green vertical stripe over his head. do you recognize him? mr. stuckey. no. mr. jenner. now, to the left of the man with the vertical arrow above his head is a tall rather husky young fellow whose back is turned. do you, by any chance, recognize him? mr. stuckey. this one? mr. jenner. yes. mr. stuckey. no. mr. jenner. i will ask you the general question do you recognize anybody depicted on pizzo exhibit no. -a other than oswald? mr. stuckey. oswald is the only person i recognize in that picture. mr. jenner. i show you pizzo exhibit no. -b. do you recognize oswald on that picture? mr. stuckey. yes; he has the green mark above his head. mr. jenner. that is the vertical mark and it is the only mark on that photograph, is it not? mr. stuckey. that is correct. mr. jenner. directing your attention to the group of men on that photograph in which oswald is a part although his back is to the group, do you recognize any of those men shown on that photograph? mr. stuckey. no; i recognize nobody. mr. jenner. and to the right side of the girl there are some ladies. do you recognize any of them? mr. stuckey. i was just looking over that. one of them looks vaguely familiar, but--no; i would have to say. no; i don't know the women. mr. jenner. do you recognize the vicinity or place shown? mr. stuckey. yes; that is the front of the international trade mart building on common and camp streets in new orleans. mr. jenner. if i may have that tape so i can put an exhibit number on it---- mr. stuckey. do you want to take it now rather than go through all the letter-writing proceedings? mr. jenner. i am not going to take it, but i am going to mark it and give it back to you. i don't want to have possession of it. i just want to look to see---- mr. stuckey. would it be easier for the commission if it were made into a record rather than a tape? i have a record that i have made, my own personal record. mr. jenner. i will inquire about that. it possibly might be better. you mean a platter, a disc? mr. stuckey. a platter, a disc. mr. jenner. i suppose a tape is easier to preserve. a hundred years from now this tape would be just as true as it is today, that is assuming it is kept under good conditions, whereas a platter might deteriorate. mr. stuckey. that is true. mr. jenner. so i think we had better have the tape. mr. stuckey. the disc would start decomposing after about the th time you played them, and also they get scratched and such. but one thing is you can't erase a record and you can erase a tape. that is the kind of nightmares you have with a tape. i was afraid to have a copy made of that thing for a long time just out of fear somebody might make a mistake and it would be erased. mr. jenner. you have insured against that by your disk, a platter? mr. stuckey. that is correct. mr. jenner. mr. stuckey, was a recording made on audio tape of the -minute interview that you had with mr. oswald on monday, the th of august? mr. stuckey. yes; i have made one record which is strictly for my own use. mr. jenner. you say you made it? mr. stuckey. yes. mr. jenner. i take it it was made for you by somebody? mr. stuckey. it was made for me by cosimo's recording studio in new orleans. mr. jenner. from what source was the tape made by the commercial company you have named? mr. stuckey. from---- mr. jenner. what was used to make the tape? did you have a tape and you made a copy of the tape? mr. stuckey. no; they took my original tape and from that they made the disc. mr. jenner. i see. we are a little confused here. you have an audio tape of the -minute interview, do you? mr. stuckey. yes; i do. mr. jenner. and you also have a wax disk? mr. stuckey. that is correct. mr. jenner. it is the wax disk which is the disk recording from the original tape? mr. stuckey. that is correct. mr. jenner. and it is the wax disk that was made by the commercial people you have named? mr. stuckey. true. mr. jenner. what i am getting at, mr. stuckey, was an audio tape transcript made of your interview with him on the th of august ? mr. stuckey. yes. mr. jenner. who made the original tape? mr. stuckey. the original tape was made by wdsu radio in the studios of wdsu, and the engineer doing the taping was mr. al campin. mr. jenner. do you know what happened to that original tape? mr. stuckey. yes; i have it; it is in my possession. mr. jenner. did you bring it with you today? mr. stuckey. no; this is a copy which you have in your hand. mr. jenner. did you bring a copy of that tape, which is stuckey exhibit no. ? mr. stuckey. that is correct? mr. jenner. from what source did you obtain the original tape? mr. stuckey. from wdsu. when the management of wdsu decided not to run that tape but instead to have the debate, the second show, then they gave me the tape. mr. jenner. what is now marked as stuckey exhibit no. is a reproduction on tape of the original tape? mr. stuckey. that is correct. mr. jenner. who made the reproduction which is stuckey exhibit no. ? mr. stuckey. cosimo's recording studio. mr. jenner. where are they located? do you happen offhand to recall the address? mr. stuckey. it is on governor nichol's street in the block. mr. jenner. would you tell us the full name of that company? mr. stuckey. yes; cosimo's recording studio, i believe it is. mr. jenner. did you have more than one tape reproduction made of that? mr. stuckey. yes; i have had--how many do i have? i have two copies and the record in addition to the original tape, so there are four pieces of, four items involved. mr. jenner. you will recall, mr. stuckey, that you were good enough when i was in new orleans to take me over to the radio station, what is the name of it again? mr. stuckey. wdsu. mr. jenner. wdsu, and there was played in my presence and in my hearing a tape transcript of your -minute interview with oswald on the th of august . is the tape which i have in my hand, marked stuckey exhibit no. , the tape that was played that evening in my presence? mr. stuckey. it is. mr. jenner. and it is in the same condition now as it was at the time i heard it? mr. stuckey. exactly. mr. jenner. it is in the same condition now as it was when it was prepared by cosimo's? mr. stuckey. correct. mr. jenner. subject to my understanding with you that you will receive a communication from mr. rankin respecting the preservation of this tape against commercial use, i offer stuckey exhibit no. in evidence. i am going to return the tape to you so that there will be no question in your mind but what, in the meantime, until you do receive mr. rankin's letter, that the tape has been in your possession, and no one has made, surreptitiously or otherwise by accident or any fashion, a copy of it. mr. stuckey. very good. mr. jenner. i think i will state for the record, mr. reporter, that in an off-the-record discussion with mr. stuckey respecting the audio tape of the interview of august , , stuckey exhibit no. , mr. stuckey has agreed that he will supply or return, let us say, exhibit no. to us upon his receipt of a communication from mr. rankin, as counsel for the commission, that the tape when redelivered to us and becomes part of the record of the commission, will not be subjected to use for any commercial purpose and reproduction. mr. stuckey. i would like to ask for one qualification. mr. jenner. all right. mr. stuckey. i would like my attorney to read over the letter before---- mr. jenner. of course. mr. stuckey. before sending you the tape, and in case we suggest possibly some changes---- mr. jenner. i think that is wise. since i am returning the tape to you, why, i am sure you won't send it back unless your counsel is satisfied that you are reasonably protected, because we appreciate the fact that this is personal property and that it has some commercial value to you and, frankly, we would be a little bit surprised if you were not concerned about preserving that. i think that is all. is there anything that you would like to add, that you think might be helpful to the commission in its investigation of the assassination of president john fitzgerald kennedy? mr. stuckey. i think we have covered just about everything. mr. jenner. all right. mr. stuckey. certainly all the hard facts. mr. jenner. what is that? mr. stuckey. i say certainly all the hard facts. the rest is just a lot of speculation and such. mr. jenner. one other thing. give bringuier's physical description, describe bringuier physically to me, please. mr. stuckey. describe oswald? mr. jenner. no; bringuier. mr. stuckey. he is about feet inches. he is not particularly dark-skinned, although his hair is black, his eyes are brown. he has the beginnings of a paunch, although his build is generally rather slender; he wears glasses, smokes cigars. i can't think of a thing else. mr. jenner. ok. i guess that is about it. affidavit of horace elroy twiford the following affidavit was executed by horace elroy twiford on july , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy state of texas, _county of harris, ss_: i, horace elroy twiford, schley street, houston, texas, being duly sworn say: . i have been a resident of houston since may, , and i am a merchant seaman. i am a member of the socialist labor party. . the first time i ever heard of lee harvey oswald was in july , when the headquarters of the socialist labor party in new york wrote me that oswald had requested literature. the new york headquarters usually furnishes me with the names of any persons in the texas area who make inquiries about the socialist labor party. i then routinely mailed oswald literature concerning the socialist labor party to a box number in dallas appearing on twiford exhibit no. . i had my return address on the envelope containing the material i sent to oswald. . twiford exhibit no. is the envelope which oswald sent to the socialist labor party in new york, and which they in turn sent to me. . the handwritten note across the front of this envelope, containing the words "labor day issue wp, / / " is in my handwriting and indicates that i mailed to oswald on september , , the labor day issue of the "weekly people." i do not recall if this was the first time i sent him material. . i recollect having flown home to visit my wife on september , , from new orleans, louisiana, where the s.s. del monte, the ship upon which i was working, was docked. either at this time or on october , when the s.s. del monte reached houston, my wife told me that a l. h. oswald had called and asked for me during the week. my wife had written his name and the words "fair play for cuba committee" on a piece of paper in order to mention the telephone call. . i recollect that my wife told me that this telephone call had taken place during the week preceding my visit home. i had been home on the previous weekend, and neither at that time nor prior thereto had my wife said anything about a telephone call from oswald. . i have never seen nor heard from lee harvey oswald. signed this th day of july . (s) horace elroy twiford, horace elroy twiford. affidavit of mrs. estelle twiford the following affidavit was executed by mrs. estelle twiford on july , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy state of texas, _county of harris, ss_: i, mrs. estelle twiford, schley street, houston, texas, being duly sworn say: . i am the wife of horace elroy twiford. . in late september of , lee harvey oswald telephoned my house and asked to speak to my husband. i told him that my husband was at sea. oswald inquired as to how my husband had his address. he also said that he had hoped to discuss ideas with my husband for a few hours before he flew down to mexico. he said he only had a few hours. i assume he was calling from the houston area since he did not, to my knowledge, place a long distance call. however, he did not specifically say that he was in houston. i have no information concerning his whereabouts when this call was placed. i told him if he desired to correspond with my husband, he could direct a letter to schley street, houston, texas, and i would see that my husband received it. . i cannot recall the date of the call, but i think it occurred during the week prior to the weekend my husband flew home to visit me from new orleans where his ship was docked. i recall, my husband had shipped out the weekend prior to the call. . i cannot recall the exact time he called, but i think that it was in the evening, sometime between : and : o'clock. i was not working during this period. . i wrote down on a slip of paper that oswald had called and that he mentioned he was a member of the fair play for cuba committee. i did this in order to remember to tell my husband about the call. i told my husband about the call on the weekend he visited me. i have initialed and released note made of telephone call. (to secret service.) . oswald did not state what he was going to mexico for, nor did he state how long he would be there. . other than the above mentioned telephone call, i have never had any contact with lee harvey oswald. . i am not a member of the socialist labor party. signed this d day of july . (s) mrs. estelle twiford, mrs. estelle twiford. testimony of virginia h. james the testimony of virginia h. james was taken at : p.m., on june , , at maryland avenue ne., washington, d.c., by messrs. william t. coleman, jr., and w. david slawson, assistant counsel of the president's commission. thomas ehrlich, special assistant to the legal adviser, department of state, was present. mr. coleman. miss james, would you state your name for the record? miss james. virginia h. james. mr. coleman. do you mind raising your right hand? do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? miss james. i do. mr. coleman. miss james, as you know, you are the international relations officer, office of soviet affairs, in the department of state. you will be asked to testify about your actions with respect to oswald concerning his attempt to return to the united states commencing in , and his attempt to secure a visa for his wife, marina. you will also be questioned concerning your actions in connection with obtaining a waiver of section (g) of the immigration and nationality act for marina, and what part, if any, you had in getting the bureau of immigration and naturalization to reverse its initial decision to refuse such waiver. and i will also ask you a few questions on whether you have any knowledge concerning actions taken by the department in when oswald first attempted to renounce his american citizenship. would you state for the record your present address? miss james. q street nw. mr. coleman. are you presently employed by the federal government? miss james. i am employed by the department of state in the office of soviet union affairs. mr. coleman. what is your official title? miss james. international relations officer. mr. coleman. did you occupy that position from through to date? miss james. i did; and do still. mr. coleman. i have shown you, and i take it you are generally familiar with, the resolution of congress which was adopted by congress in connection with this commission. miss james. yes. mr. coleman. to the best of your present knowledge, miss james, could you tell me the first time you heard the name oswald? miss james. when i read a copy of the telegram from the american embassy at moscow, dated, as i recall, october , , saying that oswald had called at the embassy and had attempted to renounce his american citizenship. mr. coleman. would you accept my suggestion if i told you that that telegram was dated october rather than the th? miss james. yes. mr. coleman. why did you receive, obtain or see a copy of the telegram? miss james. to begin with, it is my function in the department of state in the office of soviet union affairs, to handle matters relating to visas, issuance of visas and passport matters from the political angle only. mr. coleman. for what area? miss james. for the office of soviet union affairs, and it is part of our responsibility to know what goes on in the american embassy in moscow, and to see how it is handled in order that we can continue our function of advising, helping and assisting so it is routine for our office to get a copy of all these telegrams. practically every telegram that goes back and forth between the embassy in moscow and the department, both ways, comes through our office. mr. coleman. what did you do after you received the telegram, or saw a copy of the telegram? miss james. i think we took no action at that time. we read it with a great deal of interest, as we do all of this type of case of a potential defector, and a person who is an american citizen who is renouncing american citizenship is very unusual. i don't recall any action except that i know it was a source, i mean the subject of unhappy conversation in the office, to see this man carrying on this type of action. mr. coleman. you knew, didn't you, that within or days after the telegram was received, that the state department sent a reply to the embassy? miss james. i must have seen it. i notice from the file copy i cleared it, but i don't remember that exact telegram. mr. coleman. i show you commission exhibit no. , which is a copy of the telegram. miss james. i recall this. mr. coleman. you do recall it? miss james. i do. mr. coleman. do you recall clearing the text of it? miss james. i can't recall clearing the text of it, but i am perfectly sure that it was a natural thing for me to clear the text. mr. coleman. they normally would clear it with your office? miss james. yes. mr. coleman. and so, therefore, when it is recorded in the lower left-hand corner that it had been cleared with you, you have no doubt of the accuracy of that statement? miss james. i have no reason to doubt. mr. coleman. the accuracy of that statement? miss james. because we, the office of soviet union affairs, try to get all offices in the department to clear everything that is going to moscow. mr. coleman. after clearing the telegram, what was the next time that you had anything to do with the name oswald, to the best of your knowledge? miss james. as i recall, we had a copy of the report that came in from the embassy telling more in detail about his appearance at the embassy, and i also read it in the washington papers. mr. coleman. could we mark as james exhibit no. , and i show you--a reference sheet from bernice waterman to ee:sov, virginia james, under date of november , , and i ask you do you remember seeing that reference sheet? (the document referred to was marked james exhibit no. for identification.) miss james. yes; i remember seeing it in this form [pointing to document in the file]. mr. coleman. that [james exhibit no. ] is a photostatic copy? miss james. yes; i mean the yellow [copy in the file] i recall. mr. coleman. do you know why you asked them to send you a copy of the telegram of november ? miss james. again, it is in accordance with my continuing responsibility to follow these cases of visa and passport matters, and the only way we can be informed is to have all the incoming and outgoing correspondence. mr. coleman. after you received that document which has been marked as james exhibit no. , did you receive other material from miss waterman in connection with oswald during the period november , , to july ? miss james. i don't recall having received anything from miss waterman, but i am sure that we would have had copies of anything coming back and forth, back from the embassy on the case which we would have read. mr. coleman. so, therefore, you would say that you or someone in your office should have received in the normal course every embassy despatch dealing with oswald that went to the department of state? miss james. routine. in fact, it would have been out of order if we hadn't gotten it. mr. coleman. did you early in december draft a letter for mr. davis' signature to mr. snyder dealing with the general question of how he should handle people who want to renounce their citizenship in the soviet union? miss james. may i ask is that the letter in which we tried to give him helpful advice in handling cases of people who tried to renounce? mr. coleman. yes. miss james. yes; and, as i recall--if it is the letter i think--it included several paragraphs that had been contributed by mr. hickey in the passport office. i am not sure that is the one. i would like to see it, please. mr. coleman. i show you a photostatic copy of a letter which has already been marked commission exhibit no. . it is from nathaniel davis to richard e. snyder, and it is under date of december , , and it is state department file document no. xiii- . i ask you whether you drafted that letter. miss james. as i recall, i did. i am sure i did, in fact. mr. coleman. you were replying to mr. snyder's letter to mr. boster, under date of october , , which has already been marked as commission exhibit no. , is that correct? miss james. as i read this letter, it didn't refer specifically to the oswald case. mr. coleman. that is because the oswald case hadn't yet occurred. miss james. yes; i mean the effect of renouncing. i mean it had no relation; yes. he had called that in. yes; i remember that. this isn't the one, though. you just handed me one by mr. snyder to mr. davis. mr. coleman. yes. miss james. now, you asked me if i drafted it. i did draft it. mr. coleman. miss james, i take it that after you drafted the letter of december , commission exhibit no. , that from that time until some time in july that you had no knowledge of any actions with respect to oswald. miss james. as i recall, i did not, unless, as i say, there had been something in from moscow in the ordinary routine way it would have gone across my desk. mr. coleman. on july , , or shortly thereafter, perhaps on july , the state department received a foreign service despatch dated july , , from the american embassy in moscow, which has already been marked as commission exhibit no. . i show you a photostatic copy of commission exhibit no. and ask you whether you have seen the original or a copy of that document? miss james. yes; i recall this. mr. coleman. now, after you saw that, what did you do? miss james. as i recall, at that time, in , through that period there were several persons in the soviet union who attempted or could be placed in the category of defectors. webster was one, these various people that mr. snyder mentioned, and this was a very serious question. we discussed these matters in our office, and so when we saw this, we immediately were interested in it, and the most important thing to our mind was what answer is going to be made to it. so i think i called miss waterman and wanted to know what the passport office, what action they were going to take on the letter, and told her that sov was interested and we wanted to clear it, as i recall. mr. coleman. did you speak first to mr. boster about it? miss james. yes; i would have talked to mr. boster about this. he was interested in it. mr. coleman. who is he? miss james. he was officer in charge of our office at that time. mr. coleman. was he your superior? miss james. yes. mr. coleman. what did you tell miss waterman? miss james. as i recall, i would not have made any policy, any effort to judge what they would do, but i would only say we want to know what action you are going to take. that is the way i recall that i would handle it. mr. coleman. did you say that the passport office was the only office of the state department whose communications to moscow are not cleared in the sov? miss james. miss waterman says i did, and i wouldn't be surprised if i had said it. i know we all felt many times that we would like to have had more of the communications cleared with us, and i have no doubt that i must have said it if she said i did. mr. coleman. do you recall her replying that she had never heard that---- miss james. yes; i do remember at one time she said she didn't recall that this was a necessity, that they had to clear everything with us. mr. coleman. but she did tell you that she would put a memorandum in the file to show that there was a special interest of the sov in the reply to the embassy despatch of july ? miss james. yes. mr. coleman. what was the special interest of the sov? miss james. again, it is the same interest i outlined before, which is our responsibility of advising and knowing what is going on in the embassy in moscow. we are the political office. we are responsible for the embassy, and we work together very closely, and we want to be sure that what they send in is answered, how it is answered, and it is our routine way of working to be sure that any despatch is answered, and especially one of this type where we are interested in the case because of the nature of the case. mr. coleman. i show you an operations memorandum from the department of state to the american embassy in moscow, dated august , , which has already been marked as commission exhibit no. , and i ask you if you saw a copy of that memorandum at or around the time when it was sent, namely in august ? miss james. my reply is we should have seen it, but whether we did or not i don't think we did according to this file. mr. coleman. you are saying there is nothing on the file which indicates that you got a copy. miss james. nothing on the file that indicates we had it. mr. coleman. you said that---- miss james. but i think we must have known that they made this decision. mr. coleman. did you have anything to do with the making of the decision? miss james. no; i don't think i can say we had anything to do with the making of the decision. those matters are legal decisions, and the passport office would make it on the basis of their information. mr. coleman. you or your office never called, to the best of your knowledge---- miss james. to needle them on to make it? no. mr. coleman. to make it one way or the other? miss james. no. mr. coleman. could you tell me from your file the next document that you looked at after receiving a copy of the embassy despatch of july , ? miss james. i have some notes i think will help me better than the file which isn't in chronological order. i think it would have been the embassy report asking for a security advisory opinion on mrs. oswald's visa application, which would be august , , commission no. x- ---- mr. coleman. you mean state department number. miss james. i say, state department no. x- ( ). mr. coleman. can the record show that the commission exhibit number on that document is commission exhibit no. . now, you say you received a copy of the august , ---- miss james. yes, sir; i received that. mr. coleman. operations memorandum---- miss james. twenty-five. mr. coleman. now, after you received a copy, what did you do? miss james. i have no exact remembrance of that, but i can tell you what my practice is. in receiving a document like this, and we have many cases similar, i keep it some place handy, and i will check with the visa office and see what they are going to do about it, and are they going to--are they handling it. then we follow through to see if she is passed by the various security offices. we are aware when these come in that a person has an exit visa. this time it was before the exit visa, i think. yes--well, we were trying to get this case prepared so it wouldn't be held up in moscow because of investigations that might be delayed on this side. mr. coleman. why would you do that? miss james. only because it is our regular practice to expedite these matters. mr. coleman. wouldn't that depend upon whether the case was meritorious or not? miss james. yes; but i mean as a general thing we would expedite, hoping it would be expedited until it its turned down. then if it is turned down, that is the end of it. mr. coleman. what you are saying is that sov just wants to make sure that all the paperwork gets done, that you are really not making the decisions but you don't want any decision held up on the ground that the papers aren't there, but you have no particular interest which way the decision would be made? miss james. yes; we have an interest in that. we know from our policy what we think is good for the u.s. government, and we would hope that cases are handled in that framework. mr. coleman. would you say that there was a decision in the oswald case that the best thing for the united states was to get oswald out of moscow, russia, and back to the united states, even if he had renounced his citizenship? miss james. i can't go on that because that is a supposition, but on the basis of the case we felt that it was better for the u.s. government to bring oswald back. mr. coleman. who made that decision? miss james. again, that is our general policy. when we received this omv asking for an advisory opinion on mrs. oswald's visa application, we already knew that the passport office had approved her husband's citizenship. mr. coleman. so you say, therefore, that once it was clear that oswald was still an american citizen, that you felt it was to the interests of the united states? miss james. of the united states? mr. coleman. to get him out of russia? miss james. to get him out of the soviet union, and also to bring his family. mr. coleman. now, could you look in file no. viii of the state department, document no. . is that a telegram? miss james. no; that is a wire. mr. coleman. would you read what it says? will you describe to whom it is sent and tell me what it means? miss james. it says, it is addressed to the american embassy in moscow and refers to this request for an advisory opinion---- mr. coleman. it has typed thereon: sov, miss james. you signed it, didn't you? miss james. no; this was the visa office telegram, and in fact i didn't initial that telegram. it has my name on it, but mr. owen initialed it. mr. coleman. does it have your name? miss james. it has my name typed on it, but mr. owen initialed it. mr. coleman. on october , , a cable was sent to the embassy in moscow having something to do with oswald. would you indicate for the record what the cable said? miss james. as i understand it, the cable authorized the american embassy in moscow to issue a visa to mrs. oswald if when she appeared there was nothing against her otherwise derogatory, and the cable also indicated that her membership in the trade union would not affect the issuance of a visa, that such membership did not indicate that she was a communist. mr. coleman. now, the cable or the copy that i have seen indicates that it was typed by you, at least your name appears on it. miss james. no; it was drafted by the visa office, drafted by v. smith, typed by initials rlc, signed in the visa office by frank l. auerbach, and sent to the soviet desk, office of soviet union affairs, for clearance, typed "sov miss james" and in parentheses "(in substance)," and i apparently was out that day and it has mr. owen's initials on it, and there is another initial which i don't identify, but mine are not on that. mr. coleman. but to the best of your recollection you never saw that or had anything to do with it? miss james. never saw that cable, but i was aware that they approved it. mr. coleman. had there been some discussion of the operation memorandum of august , , commission exhibit no. , in your office as to whether mrs. marina oswald was eligible for a nonquota immigrant visa? miss james. i don't recall any special detailed discussion, except that this was a case, an unusual case, which we would be interested in following. mr. coleman. were you the one in the office who had the initial contact with the ins, in connection with the waiver of section (g)? miss james. as i recall, i had no contact with ins at that time. i never remember discussing these cases directly with ins. our conversations were all with the visa office. mr. coleman. you dealt directly with the visa office? miss james. yes. mr. coleman. is mr. crump in your office? miss james. i was going to say i dealt with mr. crump in the visa office at that time. mr. coleman. but he is not in your office? miss james. no; he was in the visa office, now assigned abroad. mr. coleman. did you know that the visa office had made a request of ins to get it to, ( ) determine whether mrs. oswald was eligible to come into the country, and, ( ) whether it would waive the section (g) provision? i just asked you, miss james, what you knew. when was the first time you knew that---- miss james. when mr. crump told me that ins had approved the petition of the husband but had not approved the request for waiver of section no. (g). mr. coleman. prior to that time, you had nothing to do with the visa request or the section (g) waiver? miss james. no; i don't recall having anything to do with it. mr. coleman. do you recall---- miss james. as i recall, it was a surprise to me that it was refused. mr. coleman. but you had nothing to do with the first petition? miss james. no. mr. coleman. you weren't the one that sent the petition from the department of state to ins? miss james. no; that is routine visa work. mr. coleman. do you recall when mr. crump informed you that ins had refused to grant the waiver under section (g)? miss james. i don't recall the date. i do recall his informing me that they had had this information from ins that the petition was approved, but that the section (g) waiver was not approved and, therefore, it looked as though mrs. oswald would not be able to come directly to the united states. if she came at all she would have to go via another country that did not have this sanction against it. mr. coleman. could you explain for the record just what the sanction is under section (g)? miss james. yes; the sanction is that the united states will not issue an immigration visa to a citizen of a country which refuses to accept a deportee from the united states based on the reasoning that if you can't deport to that country, if a person turns out to be an unsatisfactory immigrant, you are stuck with that immigrant. mr. coleman. does that mean that the person cannot come into the united states? miss james. no; it means that mrs. oswald could have gone to belgium, france, england, any other country that accepts deportees, and applied for an immigration visa and have been admitted without any question on a section (g) waiver. mr. coleman. i have marked as james exhibit no. a memorandum from robert i. owen to john e. crump, under date of march , , and the subject of the memorandum is: "operation of sanctions imposed by section (g) of the immigration and nationality act in case of mrs. marina n. oswald." (the document referred to was marked james deposition exhibit no. , for identification.) mr. coleman. did you prepare the original of that memorandum. miss james. yes; i prepared it under mr. owen's supervision. mr. coleman. do you recall mr. owen asking you to prepare it? miss james. this was my responsibility, this case, but i had long discussions with mr. owen on the case as to how we should proceed with it before i wrote the memorandum. mr. coleman. and mr. owen told you, "why don't you draft a memorandum for mr. crump explaining to him the situation?" miss james. we came to agreement in a talk as to how to handle the case, and i drafted the memorandum which would go to mr. crump because he was the officer in the visa office handling the case. mr. coleman. in the third paragraph of the memorandum it is stated that: "sov believes it is in the interest of the u.s. to get lee harvey oswald and his family out of the soviet union and on their way to this country soon. an unstable character, whose actions are entirely unpredictable, oswald may well refuse to leave the ussr or subsequently attempt to return there if we should make it impossible for him to be accompanied from moscow by his wife and child." did you draft that? miss james. yes. mr. coleman. was this language that mr. owen had discussed with you and told you to put in the memorandum? miss james. my way of working is to draft a memorandum in rough draft. i give it to mr. owen. he and i--he might well have put in some few words. i don't know just where he would have changed it or whether he did change it. i can't say. it is impossible to say at this time unless i had the original draft, but i know he was in agreement with this. mr. coleman. were you the one that brought up the point that oswald was an unstable character, or was that something mr. owen contributed? miss james. i believe the department--i will say our office was sure that he was an unstable character by the very fact that he had tried to renounce his american citizenship, and then come--by the fact he had tried to renounce his american citizenship, makes him an unstable character to me. mr. coleman. was it your thought that once he got out of russia and back into the united states, that we wouldn't let him go back again? miss james. i think we would have--i would have, based on my work in the office, i would have hoped we would have done everything to keep him from going back. whether the passport regulations would have made this possible, i don't know. mr. coleman. you never wrote a memorandum to the passport office, though? miss james. no; that if he applies again, don't let him go back--no; we did not. mr. coleman. why didn't you do that in the light of the fact---- miss james. because there was no reason at this time. he was in the soviet union trying to get out, and it would not have occurred to me to predict that years from now he might want to go back and we should put a stop on his passport. in fact, i don't ever recall taking such action. mr. coleman. after you drafted this memorandum, did you send the telegram to the embassy which you suggest in the last paragraph should be sent? miss james. i did not send any telegram as far as i know. if it had been sent, it would have been sent by the visa office on the basis of our recommendation. i would assume if they agreed to this memorandum, they sent it. mr. coleman. was the memorandum which i have marked as james exhibit no. in any way motivated or written as a result of the telegram dated march , , which you received from the embassy in moscow, which says: "please advise when decision on petition in (g) waiver lee oswald wife may be expected," which i have marked as james exhibit no. and am showing you a copy of it. (the document referred to was marked james exhibit no. for identification.) miss james. may i have you repeat that question again, please? mr. coleman. i am asking you was the memorandum of march , , drafted by you, which we have marked as james exhibit no. , in any way motivated by the telegram from the embassy dated march , which i have marked as james exhibit no. ? it came out of state department file iv- . miss james. my memory is that it was not motivated in entirety, although undoubtedly the telegram brought the case to our attention. as i recall in those days or weeks preceding march , i had been in conversation with mr. crump and mr. owen and i had been discussing the case, and i cannot be sure, but i believe that we would have had this in our mind before the telegram came in. but undoubtedly the telegram would make us expedite the writing of this memorandum. mr. coleman. after you wrote the memorandum of march , , did you draft the letter which mr. crump sent to ins, asking it to reconsider its original decision that it would not waive section (g)? miss james. may i see a copy of that letter? you asked me if i drafted it? mr. coleman. yes. miss james. no; i did not draft it, but i believe some of the reasoning in the letter was based on the memorandum from sov. mr. coleman. can you tell me who drafted it? miss james. mr. crump has his initials on the file copy. again, i didn't clear that outgoing letter. mr. owen cleared it. mr. coleman. did you draft a memorandum from mr. hale to mr. cieplinski, dated march , , or did mr. crump draft that? miss james. mr. crump drafted that. mr. coleman. march , . miss james. we have march from hale to cieplinski. it was drafted on the th, apparently sent on the d. mr. coleman. i will mark as james exhibit no. -a a memorandum from mr. hale to mr. cieplinski in re immigrant visa of mrs. marina h. oswald, and ask you whether you have seen a copy of that document. miss james. yes. mr. coleman. you got a copy, but you didn't draft it? miss james. no; you said, did i see a copy of it, i thought. mr. coleman. yes; and is that the same document that you described as the memorandum dated march ? miss james. yes. mr. coleman. after the memorandum---- miss james. may i have a moment, please, to read this letter that they sent to the ins? mr. coleman. sure. miss james. which i don't remember seeing before. mr. coleman. you didn't draft that letter? miss james. no. thank you. mr. coleman. you say you didn't draft that? miss james. no; it was drafted in the visa office. mr. coleman. but you knew that it had gone out, i take it? miss james. i received a copy of it, so, therefore, i knew that they had sent this to the head of the special consular administration at that time, sca. mr. coleman. now after---- miss james. special consular affairs, i beg your pardon. mr. coleman. after that letter was sent out, did you have occasion to call ins, and ask them to find out what the status of the letter was? miss james. to the best of my memory i never called ins on this case. mr. coleman. my problem is i have a letter here which is from robinson to michael cieplinski, and it says at the bottom: " - - miss james sov called to say she had received letter from mr. oswald's mother saying he had written he had no money and was unable to travel." miss james. i would have called the visa office on that. that doesn't mean i called ins. mr. coleman. oh, i see. all your calls were to the visa office? miss james. yes; in fact, i think i am clear that in saying that there is a policy that all approaches to ins are through the visa office. mr. coleman. i will mark as james exhibit no. a copy of a letter from robert h. robinson to mr. michael cieplinski, dated may , , and i ask you whether you have seen a copy of that letter. (the document referred to was marked james exhibit no. for identification.) miss james. i don't recall having seen it at the time. i do recall reading it in the file prior to my coming to this meeting. mr. coleman. do you recall making the call that they at the bottom said you made? miss james. i am sure that i did if mr. crump put his initials on it. i don't remember it. i do remember the letter from mr. oswald's mother. in fact, i had some telephone calls from her, also. mr. coleman. do you recall receiving a copy of a telegram from the embassy at moscow, which telegram is dated may , , which i have marked as james exhibit no. ? (the document referred to was marked james exhibit no. for identification.) mr. coleman. have you seen that telegram? miss james. an information copy came to eur, which is european bureau, and i am sure that that means that an information copy came on down to the office of soviet union affairs, and i would have seen it, and that is why i called to inquire about the case. mr. coleman. and there is a note on there that on may , , you called to inquire about the case and apparently you were told that the waiver had been granted. miss james. yes. mr. coleman. do you know why you made the call? miss james. well, i would have considered, reading it today, that this is an urgent telegram from the embassy in moscow wanting some action from the department, and i would have made the call to try to get done what the embassy was pleading for, action one way or the other on this case. mr. coleman. did you clear this with anybody else within the office? miss james. there is nothing to clear on this, only that i called to find out--i might well have talked to mr. owen about this telegram. i am sure he saw it. the general routing is for telegrams to go through the officer in charge to the person who handles the specific subject, but it has been a part of my duty to have called them to---- mr. coleman. and you say that as a result of getting the telegram from moscow, that you without consulting with anybody else in the office would call and find out the status? miss james. i wouldn't have to have any further instruction on that telegram. mr. coleman. i would then like to show you a document which has been marked as commission--james exhibit no. which is a telegram to the american embassy in moscow, dated may , , and ask you whether you sent that telegram. (the document referred to was marked james exhibit no. for identification.) miss james. that telegram was sent by the visa office of the department, and was apparently cleared by me telephonically and initialed by mr. crump as having cleared with me over the telephone. mr. coleman. oh, i see, mr. crump is in the visa office? miss james. yes; now this gives me a lead to another paper back there, where i said i had not seen it. it had mr. owen's initials or some initials, which i couldn't identify. i now identify those initials as mr. crump's initials, and, after that, it said miss james, in substance. i now realize that he had probably telephoned to me, cleared it in substance, initialed it, sent it up to sov, and mr. owen put his initials on it, and i never had my initials on it for that reason. mr. coleman. in other words, you say that this telegram which i have marked as james exhibit no. , was actually drafted by mr. crump as a result of mr. crump's office finding out that the waiver had been granted? miss james. yes. mr. coleman. that they called you, told you what they were going to do, and you said, "fine," and that is how your name got on the telegram? miss james. that is why my name is there and mr. crump's initials above it show that he was the officer who cleared it with me. mr. coleman. now, i take it in the document that i have marked as james exhibit no. , which is a telegram dated march , , in which the embassy at moscow was instructed to "withhold action on department's omv " because the sanction is being reconsidered. that telegram also was not drafted by you, and the only reason why your name appears on it is that it was cleared with you over the telephone. (the document referred to was marked james exhibit no. for identification.) miss james. yes; and, again, although that was cleared, those are my initials, vhj, that is my initials. it was apparently cleared over the phone telephonically and also sent it up to us and mr. owen and i each initialed it, vhj, and o for owen. mr. coleman. but the fact that your name appeared on the telegrams doesn't mean you wrote them? miss james. no; you see, the way the telegrams are in the state department, that first line says drafted by, and then underneath is clearances, and those offices are clearing offices. mr. coleman. and could you identify for me a letter which i have marked james exhibit no. , which is a letter from michael cieplinski to mr. farrell, dated march , . i ask you whether that is a copy of the letter which was sent forward to the immigration service asking them to reconsider the waiver? miss james. this exhibit is a photostatic copy of the file copy which is in the file i am examining, and it is an exact copy. i did not clear it. mr. coleman. as far as you know, that is a copy of the letter? miss james. an exact copy; yes. i see the initials are carried through. everything is exactly the way the file copy is, the department's file copy. (discussion off the record.) mr. coleman. i would like to mark as james exhibit no. a transmittal slip under date of march , , and it bears the signature which purports to be virginia h. james, and i ask you whether that is your signature that appears thereon. miss james. yes. mr. coleman. now, what occasioned your sending this transmittal slip to the american embassy and the attachment? miss james. we wanted the embassy in moscow to know what we were doing on the despatches and telegrams that they sent in, and that we were in agreement with their recommendation, that we were making these recommendations to the visa office, and this would more or less give them some assurance that their recommendations were in harmony with our thinking. this is the way we work, very closely with the embassy in moscow. when we are in harmony with what they do, we write memos through the department. we frequently send memos to them so they say, "well, we have made the right recommendation. the political office is supporting us and now we wait for the other offices in the department." mr. coleman. were you aware, did you know, or did you have anything to do with suggesting to the embassy that they should try to send mrs. marina oswald into the country by her first going to brussels? miss james. no; except that is a regular procedure that we use, we call it third country procedure. the immigrant can't come directly to the united states. they do go to another country. mr. coleman. but you were not the one to suggest it in the oswald case? miss james. no; it is established procedure, though. it would not be unusual for any officer in the visa office to think of that. mr. coleman. but you didn't suggest it? miss james. no; i did not. mr. coleman. now, when mr. oswald came into the country--when oswald left moscow, i take it you were informed the day he left or the day after he left, and did you receive a copy of the telegram from moscow to the state department, dated may ? miss james. yes; our office received it, sov. mr. coleman. i have marked that as james exhibit no. . (the document referred to was marked james exhibit no. , for identification.) miss james. yes. mr. coleman. and you then, after he got back, drafted a letter to oswald's mother? miss james. yes. mr. coleman. i will mark that as james exhibit no. . (the document referred to was marked james exhibit no. for identification.) mr. coleman. this is in file iv, a copy of it. i show you a copy of a letter from robert i. owen to mrs. oswald, under date of june , , and ask you whether that is the letter. miss james. yes; i drafted that letter. i recall it. mr. coleman. now, in connection with the oswald case, was there any instance where you wanted to do one thing but somebody told you no, something else would have to be done? miss james. in the oswald case? mr. coleman. yes. miss james. we worked in harmony on these cases. the visa office is very well--harmonize with sov policy on these cases. there is no bickering or unpleasantness or somebody pulling one way or the other. we seem to go along with them. every time one comes up they go along in the regular way based upon established policy. mr. coleman. there was no instance where you said, "i think that this ought to be done" and somebody said, "i don't care what you think, this is the way it should be done." miss james. no. mr. coleman. in all these cases you discussed the problem with the visa office and you reached a mutual agreement. you never had a dispute? miss james. i recall no such feeling or reactions. mr. coleman. you had indicated earlier, miss james, that there was a general policy in your office to see that husbands and wives were not separated. would you want to describe for the record just what that policy was? miss james. may i go back historically? mr. coleman. yes. miss james. since the time we first recognized the soviet union, we have had these cases of separated families, spouses, husbands and wives and children and other relatives who by some reason or another, mostly because of the operation of communist policy, have become separated from their american citizen families. and from the time we first recognized the soviets, this has been a problem there. files are filled with notes to the soviet government asking them to please issue exit visas to permit certain relatives to join families in the united states. this has gone on, and i remember hearing an officer say that if the result of recognizing the soviet union was for no other reason than to assist these people this was a very powerful reason. during world war ii no visas were issued and nobody traveled and this died. right after the war we again had the problem of people trying to get their relatives out, and the number was greatly increased by russia taking over those various countries, lithuania, estonia, parts of poland, parts of czechoslovakia, rumania went into the soviet union, and we had the number greatly enlarged. then, in addition to that, because of war operations, american citizens were stationed in the soviet union and they had married soviet women, and so we had pressing cases of correspondents. american correspondents, a few people assigned to the embassy in moscow who married soviet wives, probably about or who were very, what we would call, worthy cases of good marriages and good people who had made a good marriage with women we thought were good people, and they have since made good american citizens. so in , when stalin died, we had the first break, and they issued the visas on this group. and since then we have gone forward with this. we saw we had a break and so we have been pressing the soviet government to issue visas to clear this problem up. in when mr. nixon went there, he was importuned by relatives to help to get their relatives out, i mean american citizens, and he took a list of about people, and he agreed to take up these cases, and we added a number of worthy cases, and mr. khrushchev said, "i want to clear up this problem"--present it through channels. since then, we have presented it through channels and we have succeeded in getting about relatives of american citizens out. and the defector's wife falls into that pattern, because while we are not sympathetic with these people we know that if we refuse to grant u.s. visas to a wife of an american citizen, the soviet government can immediately say, "well, we grant visas to these people, exit visas. then you don't allow them to go to the united states. what does this mean?" so that was the basis of our whole policy with marina oswald, that we felt that we didn't want to put the embassy in a position of fighting for exit visas for relatives, and then when they issue you say, "well, this is not quite the kind we want." mr. coleman. in other words, you say that once the passport office made the decision that oswald was still an american citizen, then your policy that you don't want to separate husbands and wives came into play, and if the soviet union is willing to let both of them out, that we will let them come in? miss james. that is the basic policy. that was the whole interest in our office, the embassy in moscow's primary interest there as far as marina oswald was concerned, and her child. mr. coleman. i have no further questions. thank you. testimony of james l. ritchie the testimony of james l. ritchie was taken at : p.m., on june , , at maryland avenue ne., washington, d.c., by messrs. william t. coleman, jr., and w. david slawson, assistant counsel of the president's commission, thomas ehrlich, special assistant to the legal adviser, department of state, and carroll h. seeley, jr., were present. mr. coleman. mr. ritchie, will you state your full name? mr. ritchie. james l. ritchie. mr. coleman. will you raise your right hand? do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give is the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. ritchie. i do. mr. coleman. please state your name and address. mr. ritchie. james l. ritchie, north th street, arlington, va. mr. coleman. our information is, sir, that some time around october , , you had occasion to look at the oswald file---- mr. ritchie. i did. mr. coleman. after the department received a telegram from the cia indicating that oswald had made an inquiry at the russian embassy in mexico city, and that you took certain action as a result of looking at the file? mr. ritchie. i did. mr. coleman. and that is what we want to ask you about, sir. but before i do that, let me ask you a few preliminary questions. mr. ritchie. certainly. mr. coleman. you have given your address, is that correct? mr. ritchie. yes, sir. mr. coleman. where are you presently working? mr. ritchie. state department passport office, legal division. mr. coleman. and what is your position? mr. ritchie. attorney advisor. mr. coleman. and how long have you been in that capacity? mr. ritchie. nine or ten years. mr. coleman. are you a member of the bar? mr. ritchie. yes; district of columbia. mr. coleman. when was the first time you ever heard the name lee harvey oswald? mr. ritchie. october , . mr. coleman. and would you indicate what occasioned your hearing the name? mr. ritchie. the security division transmitted a telegram from the cia marked secret, to the passport office. it was received in the legal division october , and it had been marked "mr. anderson, pull previous" which means get the file, and it was then handed to me october , approximately. mr. coleman. who handed it to you? mr. ritchie. i don't know. it was placed on my desk. i imagine the file---- mr. coleman. prior to that time, you hadn't called for the file? you knew nothing about the case? mr. ritchie. no; i knew nothing about it. it had been placed on my desk for review. i read the telegram, noted that copies had been sent to sca, that is the bureau of security and consular affairs, cma, mexico, the soviet desk, and the press section of rar. mr. seeley. american republics political division. mr. coleman. then what did you do after you got the telegram? mr. ritchie. i reviewed the entire file. mr. coleman. that means you read every document in the file? mr. ritchie. yes. mr. coleman. and do you have any idea how long it took you? mr. ritchie. not more than a half hour. mr. coleman. and then what did you do after you read or reviewed the file? mr. ritchie. i don't want to say i read every item. i read the majority. mr. coleman. as a lawyer? mr. ritchie. yes; i glanced over it. mr. coleman. you read what you felt was relevant? mr. ritchie. relevant. mr. coleman. but you did thumb through every document? mr. ritchie. yes. mr. coleman. what did you then do? mr. ritchie. i made a judgment there was no passport action to be taken, and marked the file to be filed. mr. coleman. did you make a written memorandum? mr. ritchie. no, sir; just put "file" on it. mr. coleman. did you discuss it with mr. seeley or anyone else? mr. ritchie. i took the file to mr. seeley. mr. coleman. did you summarize for him what was in the file? mr. ritchie. no; i did not. i don't know what my exact words were to him. i must have said, "look at this." mr. coleman. didn't you say to him, "this guy was a defector"? mr. ritchie. i don't recall what i said to him, back in october. i know i said something to him. i directed his attention to it. mr. coleman. then did he discuss it with you? mr. ritchie. no. mr. coleman. you put the file on his desk and you didn't have anything to do with it? mr. ritchie. that is right. mr. coleman. why did you put it on his desk? mr. ritchie. he was in charge of the section, and i just brought it to him for his attention. mr. coleman. would you do that with every file that you are asked to review? mr. ritchie. those files that i thought should be brought to his attention; yes. mr. coleman. so, therefore, you felt that this file was other than just the routine file that you would look at and put back? mr. ritchie. yes, sir. mr. coleman. wouldn't you tell mr. seeley something as to why you thought it was other than routine? mr. ritchie. no, sir; i just said "look at it." i presume i just directed his attention to the file, and that he should look at it. mr. coleman. and then you had no more discussion with him? mr. ritchie. none that i can recall. mr. coleman. did you say anything to him, like for example, "this guy the last time he was abroad tried to, or at least threatened that he would give to the soviets whatever he had learned in the marine corps with reference to our radar information"? mr. ritchie. i have no recollection of my conversation with mr. seeley. all i know is my usual procedure is i review a case. if there is no passport action to be taken, i place it, mark it "file" and place it in the box to go to file. mr. coleman. without mr. seeley taking a look at it? mr. ritchie. without mr. seeley ever seeing it. mr. coleman. and this one you felt---- mr. ritchie. and this one i felt he should see. mr. coleman. but you didn't give him any memorandum---- mr. ritchie. no, sir. mr. coleman. or point out what he should look at? mr. ritchie. i may have directed his attention to the case, but i have no independent recollection of it. mr. coleman. then after october , , you had no contact with oswald, the file or anything else? mr. ritchie. no, sir; let me change that. i reviewed the file before i came here. i have reviewed the file. mr. coleman. oh, sure. that is all. thank you, sir. testimony of carroll hamilton seeley, jr. the testimony of carroll hamilton seeley, jr., was taken at a.m., on june , , at maryland avenue ne., washington, d.c., by messrs. william t. coleman, jr., and w. david slawson, assistant counsel of the president's commission. thomas ehrlich, esq., special assistant to the legal adviser, department of state, and james l. ritchie, were present. mr. coleman. would you state your full name, please, sir? mr. seeley. carroll hamilton seeley, jr. mr. coleman. would you raise your right hand, please? do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give in this deposition is the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. seeley. i do. mr. coleman. sir, i would like to state that you have been called and asked to give a deposition because in looking through certain files supplied us by the state department, there are indications that you had something to do with one or more of the documents in the file, and we also want to ask you concerning what you did after you received information that a person named lee harvey oswald was at the soviet embassy in mexico city some time around the first of october. as we understand it you received such notice on or about the th of october. mr. seeley. i did see the notice. i think that i saw that notice on the d, on october , . mr. coleman. those are the two subjects that we are going to question you about. mr. seeley. yes, sir. mr. coleman. would you state your address for the record? mr. seeley. my address is nashville road, lanham, md. mr. coleman. are you familiar with the congressional resolution in re this commission? mr. seeley. i am familiar with the newspaper accounts. mr. coleman. you are familiar with the resolution? mr. seeley. i am familiar with it to the extent that i have read in the newspapers that there is a commission set up to investigate the assassination. mr. coleman. would you state whether you are presently employed by the federal government? mr. seeley. yes, sir; i am. i am employed with the department of state. mr. coleman. what is your position with the state department? mr. seeley. i am assistant chief of the legal division of the passport office of the department of state. mr. coleman. who is your immediate superior? mr. seeley. robert d. johnson, chief counsel. mr. coleman. how long have you had that position? mr. seeley. i have been in that position since approximately february . mr. coleman. prior to february , what was your position? mr. seeley. i was chief of the security branch of the legal division of the passport office. mr. coleman. how long did you have that job? mr. seeley. i had held that job since approximately . mr. coleman. as assistant to mr. johnson---- mr. seeley. yes. mr. coleman. what are your duties? mr. seeley. my duties are mainly supervisory and to review material that has been prepared in the passport office legal division, and on some occasions to clear information or material that has been prepared in other divisions of the passport office. mr. coleman. i take it you are a lawyer? mr. seeley. yes, sir; i am. mr. coleman. are you a member of the bar? mr. seeley. yes, sir; i am. mr. coleman. of what state or states? mr. seeley. i am a member of the bar of the district of columbia. mr. coleman. how long have you been with the department of state? mr. seeley. i have been with the department of state since . mr. coleman. could you tell me the first time you heard, read or saw the name lee harvey oswald? mr. seeley. well, mr. coleman, i don't have an independent recollection of that. i feel that probably the name first appears in the file on march , . mr. coleman. so, therefore, by consulting the file, to refresh your recollection, you think that the first time you heard or saw the name lee harvey oswald was in march ? mr. seeley. it is possible, it may have been that i had heard of it before, though, because he did have some publicity, and i usually follow those items, but i don't have any recollection of it. mr. coleman. what happened in march , that occasioned your knowing or hearing the name lee harvey oswald? mr. seeley. may i look at the file? mr. coleman. certainly. i take it, sir, you are looking at the file which is the file of the passport--the original passport file of the state department. mr. seeley. yes, sir. mr. coleman. that is the file that has been given state department file no. x, is that correct? mr. seeley. yes, sir. the first time my name appears in the file is on a form ds- , which is a reference slip, and it is addressed to mr. cacciatore in pt-f, and to mr. seeley, in pt-ls. it requests to know insofar as i am concerned, should instruction be classified confidential. mr. coleman. sir, i will mark for the purposes of this deposition a document as s- , meaning seeley exhibit no. , which is the state department document which already has been marked by the state department as x- . mr. seeley. yes, sir. (the document referred to was marked seeley exhibit no. for identification.) mr. coleman. who is the reference slip dated march , , from? mr. seeley. mr. kupiec. mr. coleman. to two persons, and you are one of the two persons, mr. seeley, is that correct? mr. seeley. yes, sir. mr. coleman. i show you the document which has been marked as s- and ask you is that a copy of the document you referred to? mr. seeley. yes, sir. mr. coleman. i take it that you got this because someone asked whether the instructions should be classified as confidential. mr. seeley. yes, sir. i don't have an independent recollection of this, but i assume that it is referring to this instruction which is state department's document x- , which had been classified as official only. mr. coleman. sir, i show you a document which has already been marked as commission exhibit no. , and ask you whether these were the instructions that were attached to s- . mr. seeley. so far as i am able to determine, i don't have an independent recollection, but looking at the formation of the file and the fact that this was not sent, and i know that there was another one that was sent, i believe it is the same document. mr. coleman. and you were asked as to whether it should be classified as confidential? mr. seeley. yes, sir. mr. coleman. what, if anything, did you do? mr. seeley. i don't know. i have no recollection of what action i took on that particular aspect of it. mr. coleman. you don't recall ever talking to miss waterman or anyone else in the department as to what form the proposed instruction should take? mr. seeley. no. i don't know whether i even know miss waterman. i know mr. kupiec, and i probably know miss waterman, but i don't have recollection of what she looks like. mr. coleman. did you ever discuss with mr. kupiec as to what form the instruction should take? mr. seeley. no, sir. this instruction was drafted by miss waterman, and it was sent up for clearance to ptl, mr. johnson. i presume that when it went to either mr. cacciatore or mr. kupiec, i put my name on for the clearance procedure, in particular with regard to whether the thing should have been classified, have a higher classification than it did. mr. coleman. you don't have any independent recollection of discussing oswald? mr. seeley. no, sir. mr. coleman. or whether the instruction should have been in a different form? mr. seeley. no, sir; i do not. mr. coleman. could you tell me the next occasion where you had anything to do with oswald, or the file? mr. seeley. the next occasion, i think, relates to document x- . mr. coleman. i would like to mark as s- a memorandum from robert d. johnson to mr. john t. white, under date of march , , which in the state department files has been marked as x- . (the document referred to was marked seeley exhibit no. for identification.) mr. coleman. is that the document referred to? mr. seeley. yes, sir; it is. mr. coleman. now, sir, did you draft s- ? mr. seeley. yes, sir; i did. mr. coleman. can you tell me the circumstances surrounding your drafting s- ? mr. seeley. this particular item i do have a recollection of because there was a discussion between mr. johnson and myself concerning the propriety of sending the passport through the mail as had been proposed. mr. coleman. what was that discussion? mr. seeley. we were opposed to this action on several grounds. mr. coleman. what were they? mr. seeley. one was the fact that i think we already had information that mrs. oswald, the mother, had not been able to get in touch with her son. mr. coleman. you are talking about oswald's mother? mr. seeley. the mother; yes. and we felt that the mails shouldn't be trusted for a u.s. passport which we know has a value outside the united states. mr. coleman. now, you also indicated in the memorandum that, "we should not be bound by the opinion he expressed in paragraph of his letter set out in moscow despatch no. of february , ." mr. seeley. may i get that? it is no. . the paragraph that we are referring to reads: "i desire to return to the united states, that is if we could come to some agreement concerning the dropping of any legal proceedings against me. if so, then i would be free to ask the russian authorities to allow me to leave. if i could show them my american passport, i am of the opinion they would give me an exit visa." the item in the memorandum concerns itself mainly with his request for agreement concerning the dropping of any legal proceedings against him. mr. coleman. you indicated that the department ought not to give such agreement. mr. seeley. yes. mr. coleman. did you have any discussions with mr. johnson with respect to this march , , memorandum? mr. seeley. yes, sir. i don't have a complete recollection of it, but i do know that i did discuss this particular item, particularly the mailing of the passport, with mr. johnson. mr. coleman. and do you recall what mr. johnson said? mr. seeley. i think mr. johnson was the one that instructed me to draft this so that we would not send this through the mail, so that the passport would not be sent through the mail. mr. coleman. after the memorandum of march , , and this discussion you had with mr. johnson, what did you do? mr. seeley. i am sorry? mr. coleman. did you draft the instructions in the form that they actually went forward? mr. seeley. no, sir. mr. coleman. did you have anything to do with that? mr. seeley. no, sir; except i think there is a clearance, but i am not sure about that. i think we cleared it. mr. coleman. and the instructions that actually went forward did indicate that they ought not to return the passport by mail? mr. seeley. yes, sir. mr. coleman. what was the date of that instruction? mr. seeley. the instruction that went forward? mr. coleman. yes. mr. seeley. that was ae- , of april , . it is department x- . mr. coleman. will the record show that that document has already been marked as commission exhibit no. before the commission. you say that you read commission exhibit no. and cleared it before it went forward? mr. seeley. yes, sir. mr. coleman. exhibit no. which you referred to as x- shows on the left-hand side that there is a notation that a copy of the instructions was sent to the cia. mr. seeley. was furnished to the cia. mr. coleman. was that done at the same time the instructions went forward? mr. seeley. no, sir. mr. coleman. did you have anything to do with sending it to the cia? mr. seeley. i don't have a recollection on this. i would imagine what happened is that there was a request by the cia for a copy of this, and that i authorized them to be furnished a copy on october , . mr. coleman. i take it you actually read the instructions which went forward on april , . mr. seeley. yes, sir. my initials are at the bottom. mr. coleman. the fact that your initials are at the bottom indicates that you approved them? mr. seeley. yes, sir. mr. coleman. what was the next occasion on which you had anything to do with the oswald file or heard the name oswald? mr. seeley. i will have to check the file. the next occasion where the record shows that i had something to do with the oswald file concerns item x- . it is a department of state instruction, w- , dated july , , drafted by mrs. waterman, and i cleared this particular instruction. mr. coleman. can we note for the record that that instruction has already been marked as commission exhibit no. ? mr. seeley. yes, sir. mr. coleman. you cleared those instructions prior to the time you received word from mr. snyder in the embassy in moscow that oswald had appeared at the embassy on july , , or ? mr. seeley. of ? mr. coleman. . mr. seeley. yes, sir; that is true. i wasn't sure of the time element in there, but that is true. this went out the same day, apparently, that the instruction was drafted and was sent in, or the despatch was drafted and sent in. mr. coleman. so, therefore, you took that action or you approved that action prior to the time that you knew that oswald had appeared at the embassy in moscow? mr. seeley. yes, sir. mr. coleman. is it a fair reading of the july , , instructions which you approved, that you indicated that oswald could be given back his passport? mr. seeley. no, sir; i don't think so. i call your attention to paragraph of the despatch; "it is noted that the embassy intends to seek the department's prior advice before granting mr. oswald documentation as a united states citizen upon any application he may submit." mr. coleman. so, therefore, as of this time it was still open as far as the department was concerned in washington whether oswald had renounced his citizenship and was entitled to a passport? mr. seeley. yes, sir. i don't think that the adjudicative proceeding had been completed. mr. coleman. when was the adjudicative process completed so far as you were concerned, that the passport office in washington determined that in its opinion, that mr. oswald was still a citizen? mr. seeley. i would say that the operations memorandum of august , , from the department of state to the american embassy in moscow which refers to the embassy despatch no. , the passport renewal application and the questionnaire. mr. coleman. you would say that as of that date the passport office determined that oswald was still a citizen? mr. seeley. i would say at that date that we concurred in the conclusion of the embassy that he had not expatriated--that we had no information or evidence that he had expatriated himself. mr. coleman. did you have anything to do with this decision? mr. seeley. not the citizenship decision; no, sir. i had nothing to do with that. mr. coleman. you weren't consulted prior to the time the decision was made? mr. seeley. no, sir. mr. coleman. did you approve the operations memorandum of august ? mr. seeley. yes, sir. mr. coleman. ; before it was sent forward? mr. seeley. yes, sir; i did. my initials are at the bottom there. mr. coleman. if you had disapproved it, at least there would have been further discussion? mr. seeley. yes, sir; there would have been. mr. coleman. so, to that extent, you did have something to do with the decision? mr. seeley. well, to that extent, there was no consultation. this was sent up for clearance, and insofar as the citizenship angle was concerned, i agreed with what they had done. mr. coleman. did you call for and look at the file prior to the time you initialed the operations memorandum of august , ? mr. seeley. i would presume that i had the whole file. mr. ehrlich has suggested that i mention that i was not in the citizenship area at the time that i put my concurrence on this operations memorandum, and i was looking at it only from the aspect of my own area. mr. coleman. what was your area? mr. seeley. i was in the security branch. i was chief of the security branch of the legal division. mr. coleman. what did you have to do with the decision? mr. seeley. in this particular case if you had objected, i am sure that there would have been further discussion on this particular case. mr. coleman. could we mark as seeley exhibit no. --instead of "s" i think we had better call these seeley exhibits, the operations memorandum dated august , , from the department of state to the american embassy. mr. seeley. fine, sir. (the document referred to was marked seeley exhibit no. for identification.) mr. coleman. that is the document that you referred to as x- , is that correct? mr. seeley. x- , that is correct. mr. coleman. if you had felt that there was evidence in the file that oswald had renounced his citizenship, i take it you would not have approved this memorandum, is that correct? mr. seeley. no, sir; i would not have. mr. coleman. you would not have approved it? mr. seeley. no, sir; i would not have approved it. mr. coleman. there would have been further discussions? mr. seeley. yes, sir. mr. coleman. so, therefore, as far as you were concerned in reviewing the file and what you knew and looking over it, what miss waterman had said and what mr. snyder had said, that your decision was that you saw no reason why you would disagree with the decision? mr. seeley. i was in complete agreement with the decision. mr. coleman. after you concurred in the operations memorandum of august , , what was the next occasion on which you had anything to do with the oswald file? mr. seeley. so far as i can determine---- mr. coleman. the commission exhibit no. is the same as i have marked as seeley exhibit no. . mr. seeley. so far as i can determine by examination of the file, the next contact i had with the file concerns a slip that is part of state x- , consisting of a ds- reference slip dated - - . mr. coleman. that is attached to a letter from l. a. mack, to the director of the passport office of the state department, is that correct? mr. seeley. mr. coleman, on that particular item, i don't think that that was what it was attached to. i think it was probably attached to x- . mr. coleman. what is that? mr. seeley. that is a memorandum from miss knight to mr. boswell. mr. coleman. will you read that memorandum into the record? it is short. mr. seeley. yes; the subject is: "lee harvey oswald." it is classified "confidential." it states: "we refer to the office memorandum of july , , from sy, which stated that 'renounced united states citizenship.' mr. oswald attempted to renounce united states citizenship but did not in fact renounce united states citizenship. our determination on the basis of the information and evidence presently of record is that mr. oswald did not expatriate himself, and remains a citizen of the united states." mr. coleman. you say that your reference slip of - - was attached to that memorandum? mr. seeley. i would presume it was. mr. coleman. would you look at the letter, the mack letter from the immigration and naturalization service to the director of passports? mr. seeley. i am looking at it. mr. coleman. did you see that letter or did you have anything to do with that letter? mr. seeley. so far as i know, i had nothing to do with that letter. i have seen the letter. mr. coleman. by the time you did, the reference slip of - - --which i would like the reporter to indicate was marked seeley exhibit no. --what was your job in the state department? (the document referred to was marked seeley exhibit no. for identification.) mr. seeley. at the time that i--i was still chief of the security branch of the legal division. mr. coleman. what does pt-l mean? mr. seeley. pt-l, passport-legal, pt-ls, passport-legal security. to give you an idea about it, the legal division is divided into two branches, and we have a short designation for it, pt-ls and pt-lad. mr. coleman. i see. mr. seeley. i will tell you further if you wish, about this particular item. this was---- mr. coleman. what is this particular item? you are now talking about the letter? mr. seeley. the letter; yes. mr. coleman. it is the mack letter? mr. seeley. state department file x- . it was addressed to our liaison branch, and i see at the bottom it was reviewed by mr. reichman, of the immigration and naturalization service. and i would presume that i did not, that this was not in the file at the time that this ds- , that it was probably in liaison, and the file was called for. it was reviewed. the file was then reviewed by mr. reichman who answered for his own service. (discussion off the record.) mr. coleman. now, sir; what was the next occasion on which you had anything to do with the oswald file? mr. seeley. the next occasion concerns item x- . mr. coleman. we have marked as seeley deposition exhibit no. a memorandum from robert owen, to michael cieplinski, dated march , . (the document referred to was marked seeley exhibit no. for identification.) mr. coleman. i ask you, sir; whether that is the document you refer to. mr. seeley. yes, sir. mr. coleman. did you draft seeley exhibit no. ? mr. seeley. no, sir. mr. coleman. you reviewed it? mr. seeley. yes, sir; on march , . mr. coleman. did you have anything to do with seeley exhibit no. other than the fact that you just read it? mr. seeley. no, sir. mr. coleman. why would you be reading it? mr. seeley. the item was referred to, a copy of this item was referred to miss knight. it was, in turn, referred to the legal division, and then in turn referred to the security branch of the legal division. mr. coleman. did you take any action with respect to it? mr. seeley. no, sir; i did not, other than to note that i had read it and initialed it. mr. coleman. did the fact that he had originally stated that he had information as a radar operator in the marine corps which he would make available to the soviet union--did that in any way raise in your mind a security problem? mr. seeley. yes, sir; i thought that this certainly raised a doubt. he had originally, i think, way back had made some similar type statement. here he made the statement, "oswald stated he had never in fact been subjected to any questioning or briefing by the soviet authorities concerning his life or experiences prior to entering the soviet union, and never provided such information to any soviet organ." i thought that certainly there were two statements by him. mr. coleman. i note on the copy you have there is a red check right beside the line which i read. did you place that red check on there? mr. seeley. i don't think so, sir. it looks like--i think i had a regular pencil, and i think i would have done it with a pencil. mr. coleman. merely because a person who had attempted to defect now says when he is trying to get back into the country, "i really didn't tell the soviets anything," that wouldn't completely satisfy you that maybe he hadn't, would it? mr. seeley. no, sir; but i had no information that he had in fact done so. he had just made a statement that he would. i think that was his original statement. mr. coleman. but you didn't do anything other than read seeley exhibit no. ? mr. seeley. that is right, sir. mr. coleman. when was the next occasion you had anything to do with the file? mr. seeley. the next concerns item x- , which is a memorandum from robert d. johnson to william o. boswell, dated may , . mr. coleman. we have marked that as seeley exhibit no. , and identified as a memorandum from robert d. johnson to william o. boswell, dated may , . (the document referred to was marked seeley exhibit no. for identification.) mr. coleman. did you draft this memorandum? mr. seeley. no, sir; i did not. mr. coleman. what did you have to do with it? you just read it? mr. seeley. no, sir; i signed it in mr. johnson's stead, to send it on its way to mr. boswell. mr. coleman. in effect, you said that based upon the evidence and information of record, that oswald had not expatriated himself under the pertinent laws of the united states? mr. seeley. yes, sir. mr. coleman. did you review the file before you wrote that memorandum? mr. seeley. i didn't write the memorandum. before i signed it? mr. coleman. yes. mr. seeley. i don't have any recollection of it. i presume the file was with the memorandum. that is in the normal course of business, that would be the way it was handled. mr. coleman. but you don't have any independent recollection of whether you checked through the file to see whether---- mr. seeley. no, sir; i do not. mr. coleman. could you tell me who wrote the memorandum from looking at the initials? mr. seeley. i think it was a mrs. abboud. mr. coleman. did you discuss it with her before? mr. seeley. no, sir; i did not. this came from the citizenship area. she is in the citizenship area. mr. coleman. if they prepare a memorandum for your signature, just merely because somebody in the citizenship area drafts it doesn't mean that you sign it, does it? mr. seeley. no, sir; it does not. i would imagine, although i don't have any recollection, that i did look into the file. mr. coleman. is it fair to say that you would not just initial it merely because somebody else had drafted it? mr. seeley. yes, sir. mr. coleman. and normally you would look through the file? mr. seeley. yes, sir; in the normal course of business i would look at the file--see what my own conclusion was. mr. coleman. after you drafted or after you initialed the memorandum which has been marked as seeley exhibit no. , what was the next occasion you had to look at the oswald file? mr. seeley. the next occasion concerned the two items that are identified as x- . mr. coleman. could we mark as seeley exhibit no. a photostatic copy of an article which appeared in the washington post on saturday, june , , and also attached is a reference slip. (the document referred to was marked seeley exhibit no. for identification.) mr. coleman. are they the two items that you refer to? mr. seeley. yes, sir; they are. mr. coleman. now, i take it you just read this and put it in the file. mr. seeley. i would presume that i cut this article out. i see that it is my printing on the side there where it says "oswald, lee harvey" on the right-hand side. mr. coleman. that is your printing? mr. seeley. yes, sir; and i would presume that i saw the article in the newspaper, cut it out and brought it to be filed with this case. mr. coleman. sir, i show you a sheet which has the word "refusal" commission exhibit no. , and ask you whether that hand printing that appears there is your printing, too? mr. seeley. no, sir; that is not. i have looked at that. it doesn't look like mine. mr. coleman. now, after you put this newspaper article in the file, did you have anything else to do with the file? mr. seeley. yes; i sent this item, this is cs, these items to our special services, miss waters. mr. coleman. do you know what she did? mr. seeley. no; i don't. i have no recollection. i see that it was as requested. it may have been a telephone request. mr. coleman. did you have anything else to do with the file? mr. seeley. yes, sir; i did. mr. coleman. what was that? mr. seeley. that was on october , . mr. coleman. what occasioned your looking at the file on october , ? mr. seeley. i am looking right now at state department exhibit x- . mr. coleman. and what occasioned your looking at the file on october , ? mr. seeley. it was the transmittal from inr of the department transmitting a secret--well, i know what it is, a cia document, telegram, to the passport office. mr. coleman. can you recall what the cia telegram said? mr. seeley. the telegram said in effect that lee oswald had appeared or had contacted, i believe was the word, the soviet embassy in mexico city in october . mr. coleman. now, did the telegram also indicate that oswald was the person who in had attempted to defect? mr. seeley. yes, sir. mr. coleman. now, when you got the telegram on your desk, did you also get the file with it? mr. seeley. yes, sir; the passport file. mr. coleman. that came to you at the same time, or did you get the telegram and then send for the file? mr. seeley. i had the whole thing. i am morally certain on this, that i had the whole file. i can tell by the reconstruction on this. mr. ritchie and myself have discussed this. we are both sure how this went about. do you want me to give this reconstruction? mr. coleman. you can, if you wish to; yes. mr. seeley. i notice that there was a little note. "mr. anderson pull previous." "previous" means to pull the file, whatever file there is. this was on october . the file was pulled according to our records in our office on october or , i forget the exact date. it was within a day or so thereafter this. and i presume that this was first reviewed by mr. ritchie and then reviewed by myself. mr. coleman. when you pulled the file which is the state department file x---- mr. seeley. yes, sir. mr. coleman. did you send for the security file? mr. seeley. no, sir; i did not. mr. coleman. why wouldn't you send for the security file if you get a telegram from a security agency saying that the gentleman who was down at the russian embassy in mexico city is the same guy who in attempted to defect? mr. seeley. i looked at this report strictly from a passport office point of view. the significance which, of course, might have great intelligence significance, had little or no significance insofar as any action that we would take in the passport office is concerned. mr. coleman. why would that be, sir? mr. seeley. well, we have to have some basis under our regulations to take any action. mr. coleman. i mean why, if you get information which you can immediately realize may have intelligence significance, why wouldn't you look at it from a point of view of intelligence? mr. seeley. well, i am working for the passport office. certainly, if i saw something that i could do something about, i would take whatever action i thought was necessary. mr. coleman. why didn't you, for example, write a letter to the fbi saying that this fellow is down in mexico city, are you interested, or do you want to see the file? mr. seeley. well, i would say the probability is that a copy of this was apparently furnished to the federal bureau of investigation. mr. coleman. and you noted that, i take it, at the time of reviewing the file? mr. seeley. i have no independent recollection that i did. mr. coleman. but the fair assumption is that you did? mr. seeley. i would assume that. mr. coleman. i take it that is also the reason why you didn't notify the cia, because the telegram had come from the cia? mr. seeley. yes; from the cia. mr. coleman. when you looked at the file, did you know or were you aware after looking at the file that oswald in june had been issued a passport? mr. seeley. i presume i was. the passport is the next item there, and i am sure that i looked at it and saw that he did have a passport. mr. coleman. did you after you looked at it say to yourself "can we revoke this passport?" mr. seeley. i am sure that is why i looked at it. i am sure of that, mr. coleman, that i looked at it with that view in mind, if there was any action to be taken of that sort. mr. coleman. did you know that he had defected or attempted to defect in ? mr. seeley. yes, sir. mr. coleman. did you know that when he attempted to defect that he had indicated that he was going to pass some radar information to the russians if they gave him citizenship? mr. seeley. yes, sir. mr. coleman. did you know that the soviet desk had indicated in or that it would be to the interests of the united states to get him out of russia and back to the united states? mr. seeley. yes, sir. mr. coleman. did you note in his passport application for his passport that he indicated that one of the countries that he intended to travel to was russia? mr. seeley. i don't have an independent recollection of that. i presume i did note that. mr. coleman. and you are saying with all that information that you would look at that file, i take it you did it on october ? mr. seeley. yes, sir. mr. coleman. read it and just put it back and did nothing about it? mr. seeley. i did nothing about it other than to note the fact that i had read the telegram. mr. coleman. all i am saying, just asking for your best recollection---- mr. seeley. yes, sir. mr. coleman. i realize you did nothing, but wouldn't that cause you to at least do something, to talk to somebody and say, "can we do something about this?" mr. seeley. mr. ritchie and i undoubtedly talked about this, or at least we both saw it. i was well aware of the file. but there was no particular passport significance to the fact that a man shows up down at the soviet embassy in mexico city. he was married to a soviet citizen. i think there is an indication somewhere she was supposed to report or something. i don't know what the score was on that. mr. coleman. but the problem is, sir, that---- mr. seeley. but even if she was to report, i don't get the significance of an individual appearing at a soviet embassy, either here or anywhere else in the world, by itself meaning anything insofar as passports is concerned. mr. coleman. sir, the problem is, if there is a problem, that on june , , when mr. oswald applied for his passport, the state department issued it routinely because under the lookout system there was nothing on oswald, so, therefore, it went out the next day. mr. seeley. yes, sir. mr. coleman. and we think, from what we know, that as of june or no one looked at the file, so, therefore, there is no reason why the passport wouldn't go out. mr. seeley. i would presume from looking at this file, that that is absolutely correct. mr. coleman. but our problem is that if on june or june someone had looked at the file, would you have issued the passport based upon what was in the file as of june or , or would you have at least talked to people to see whether some action should be taken? mr. seeley. if i had seen this application on june or , before it had been issued, i think i probably would have discussed it. but that would have been the end of it. we have no basis upon which to deny him or hold up his passport. there would have been a discussion. mr. coleman. are you saying, then, it is your opinion that after reviewing the file that if the request for a passport had come in and you had looked at the file before the passport was issued, there was no regulation or legal basis on which you could refuse him a passport? mr. seeley. that is correct. that is absolutely correct. mr. coleman. and, therefore, i take it then, that the only additional information you got in the october cia telegram was that he was in mexico city, and he had visited the russian embassy in mexico city. mr. seeley. that is correct. mr. coleman. and it is your position that he had the right to go back to russia if he wanted to go anyway; is that correct? mr. seeley. yes, sir. mr. coleman. and so, therefore, there is nothing that you could have done about it? mr. seeley. no, sir. mr. coleman. did you make any memorandum or any memoranda when you looked at the file in october ? mr. seeley. aside from this notation which is in my handwriting, which says "noted chs - - " that is the extent of the documentation that i gave to them. mr. coleman. but you do say you had some discussions with the other gentlemen that looked at the file? mr. seeley. i don't have a recollection. i don't know whether mr. ritchie does. i don't believe he does either, but the fact that we both had it, he may have passed it to me. you have to get this in context. we have hundreds of these cases. this is one case out of hundreds. i am surprised that i have got any recollection, but i do have some, as i mentioned before in my testimony here, that i did have some recollection of it. mr. coleman. no one called you and said, "well, look, let him have the passport, don't do anything about it," i take it? mr. seeley. oh, no, sir. at the time the passport was issued, it was issued. mr. coleman. but i mean when you got the telegram, nobody called you and said, "look, just skip it. let him have the passport." mr. seeley. no, sir. mr. coleman. "don't do anything about it"? mr. seeley. no, sir. mr. coleman. all the action you took, you took independently? mr. seeley. yes, sir; as my own independent action. mr. coleman. i take it if faced with the situation again, knowing only what you knew on october , , you would take the same action today? mr. seeley. yes, sir; that is correct. there is one additional item, and that is under our new regulations we do put a card in on a defector or a person--i think i can give you the definition here. "defectors, expatriates and repatriates whose activities or background demand further inquiry prior to issuance of passport facilities." i presume that under this criteria, in fact i know under this criteria that oswald would have a card placed against him today. mr. coleman. is it your opinion as assistant legal counsel to the passport office that you still in the final analysis couldn't deny him the passport? mr. seeley. that is definite. mr. coleman. and you would have to give it to him? mr. seeley. yes, sir. mr. coleman. has there been any other case of a defector where you have actually issued him another passport? mr. seeley. we have issued passports to defectors, at least one that i know of, and i think we have furnished a report on that. mr. coleman. you say there is a case of another defector? mr. seeley. yes, sir; in connection with the answer to this question, we did a research job on a list of defectors which had been furnished to the department of state by the department of defense, and our search disclosed that only one of these individuals, a paul david wilson, had applied for passport facilities since his return to the united states, and he was issued a passport. mr. coleman. to go where, sir? mr. seeley. to visit mexico, colombia, south america, and was uncertain of others. mr. coleman. was that done routinely or was that done after looking at his file? mr. seeley. my recollection of this, that this was a routine issuance of a passport to a person on whom we had no information. mr. coleman. in other words, this was another case where because you didn't have a lookout card---- mr. seeley. yes. mr. coleman. nobody ever looked at the file? mr. seeley. yes, sir; well, there was no file. we have no file on this man other than his name. the passport office has no file on this man, paul david wilson. mr. coleman. but there has been no case where you had a file, you knew he had defected, and then applied for another passport and before you issued the second passport you had to make a decision as to whether you could refuse to issue him a passport? mr. seeley. none to my knowledge. mr. coleman. i have no further questions, unless you have something else you would want to say. mr. seeley. i have nothing further, mr. coleman. i will be glad to help all i can. that is all i can say. mr. coleman. thank you for coming over. affidavit of louis feldsott the following affidavit was executed by louis feldsott on july , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy state of new york, _county of rockland, ss_: i, louis feldsott, being duly sworn say: . i am the president of crescent firearms, inc., west th street, new york , new york. . on november , , the f.b.i. contacted me and asked if crescent firearms, inc., had any records concerning the sale of an italian made . m/m rifle with the serial number c . . i was able to find a record of the sale of this rifle which indicated that the weapon had been sold to kleins' sporting goods, inc., chicago, illinois on june , . i conveyed this information to the f.b.i. during the evening of november , . . further records involving the purchase, sale, and transportation of the weapon have been turned over to the f.b.i. signed the d day of july . (s) louis feldsott, louis feldsott. affidavit of j. philip lux the following affidavit was executed by j. philip lux on july , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy state of texas, _county of dallas, ss_: i, j. philip lux, being duly sworn say: . i am now store manager at the h. l. green company, main street, dallas, texas. i was not employed by the h. l. green company in . . h. l. green company records show that in , the company had in stock and sold italian . mm rifles that were surpluses from world war ii. . the records also reflect the fact that the h. l. green company received its supply of italian . mm rifles from the crescent firearms company, new york city. . a review of the records has failed to reflect any record of a . mm rifle with serial no. c . . as far as i know, the h. l. green company is the only company in dallas handling any quantity of these italian . mm rifles. signed the d day of july . (s) j. philip lux, j. philip lux. affidavit of howard leslie brennan the following affidavit was executed by howard leslie brennan on may , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy state of texas, _county of dallas, ss_: i, howard leslie brennan, being first duly sworn, do upon oath depose and state: on or about march , , i testified in washington, d.c., before the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy. in that connection i testified as to the reasons why i declined on november , , to give positive identification of lee harvey oswald as the man i saw firing a rifle from the southeast corner of the sixth floor of the texas school book depository building on november , . included in these reasons at pages and of volume of the transcript of the commission proceedings are the following reasons: "and then i felt that my family could be in danger, and i, myself, might be in danger. and since they already had the man for murder, that he wasn't going to be set free to escape and get out of the country immediately, and i could very easily sooner than the fbi or the secret service wanted me, my testimony in, i could very easily get in touch with them, if they didn't get in touch with me, and to see that the man didn't get loose." "... "because i had already more or less give a detailed description of the man, and i talked to the secret service and gave them my statement, and they had convinced me that it would be strictly confidential and all that. but still i felt like if i was the only eye witness, that anything could happen to me or my family." i have also been advised that on page of volume of the transcript of the commission proceedings, the following appears: "mr. belin. what do you mean by security reasons for your family, and yourself? "mr. brennan. i believe at that time, and i still believe it was a communist activity, and i felt like there had been more than one eye witness, and if it got to be a known fact that i was an eye witness, my family or i, either one, might not be safe." i hereby state that this is a court reporter's error and that in truth and in fact my answer to the question was: "mr. brennan: i believe at that time, and i still believe it was a communist activity, and i felt like there _hadn't_ been more than one eye witness, and if it got to be a known fact that i was an eye witness, my family or i, either one, might not be safe." signed the th day of may . (s) howard leslie brennan. howard leslie brennan. affidavit of albert c. yeargan, jr. the following affidavit was executed by albert c. yeargan, jr., on july , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy state of texas, _county of dallas, ss_: i, albert c. yeargan, jr., mayflower drive, dallas, texas, being duly sworn say: . i was the sporting goods department manager at the h. l. green company, main street, dallas, texas, from the summer of until march , . i am now employed by smitty's sporting goods, west jefferson avenue, dallas, texas. . when i worked for the h. l. green company, it had in stock and was offering for sale a large number of italian . mm rifles that were surpluses from world war ii. . on november , , fbi agents, secret service agents, and i examined all sales records and receipt records concerning italian . mm rifles. . the records showed that the h. l. green company obtained its supply of these italian . mm rifles from the crescent firearms company in new york city. . a review of all of the records failed to reflect any record of sale of a . mm rifle with the serial number c . . as far as i know, the h. l. green company was at that time the only company in dallas that handled any quantity of these italian . mm rifles. signed the st day of july . (s) albert c. yeargan, jr., albert c. yeargan, jr. affidavit of louis weinstock the following affidavit was executed by louis weinstock on may , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy state of new york, _county of new york, ss_: louis weinstock, being duly sworn, says: . on or about december , , i was general manager of "the worker," the address of which is west street. new york , new york. on or about december , , i wrote the attached letter on the letterhead of "the worker" addressed to lee harvey oswald, post office box , dallas, texas, and sent or caused such letter to be sent to mr. oswald. i have initialed that letter immediately below the initials "wjl" appearing thereon for the purpose of identifying it as weinstock exhibit no. . . the letter refers to certain "blow ups" which were apparently sent to "the worker" by mr. oswald. i described those "blow ups" in my letter as "poster like blow ups" and indicated that they would be "most useful at newsstands and other public places to call the attention of newspaper readers that 'the worker' is available." . while my recollection is not entirely clear concerning the nature of the "blow ups" which oswald had apparently sent to "the worker," it appears from the description of such "blow ups" in my letter that they must have consisted of the item which has been marked as exhibit a in the deposition of mr. arnold s. johnson, which exhibit, as indicated in mr. johnson's testimony, was obtained from the files of "the worker" and turned over to the federal bureau of investigation by mr. johnson's counsel. . aside from the attached letter of december , . i know of no other correspondence which i may have written to lee harvey oswald and i do not recall receiving anything from him other than the material described in this affidavit. signed the th day of may . (s) louis weinstock, louis weinstock. affidavit of vincent t. lee the following affidavit was executed by vincent t. lee on may , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy state of new york, _county of new york, ss_: vincent t. lee, being duly sworn says: . my name is vincent t. lee. i reside at - / st. mark's place, new york, new york. i was formerly the national director for the fair play for cuba committee. i make this affidavit to supplement the testimony which i gave to the above commission on april , . . i have examined the attached membership card of the fair play for cuba committee and state that it is an authentic membership card of that organization and that it bears my signature.[b] . i sent that card or caused it to be sent to lee harvey oswald on or about may , . . i have initialed the attached card under the initials wjl which appear on the card for the purposes of identification of that card in the record of the proceedings of the above commission. signed the th day of may . (s) vincent t. lee, vincent t. lee. [b] the fpcc membership card referred to in the above affidavit is commission exhibit no. . affidavit of farrell dobbs the following affidavit was executed by farrell dobbs on june , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy state of new york, _county of new york, ss_: i, farrell dobbs, being duly sworn, depose and say: . i have read the twenty-six page transcript of the examination of me in a proceeding of the commission to report upon the assassination of president john f. kennedy, held at new york, n.y., on april , , and find it accurate with the exception of the corrections noted and initialled by me on pages , , & . . i have read the original of a letter dated november , , to mr. lee h. oswald from farrell dobbs, and have initialled it so that it may be substituted as r. watts exhibit for the typewritten copy shown me on april , .[c] i have no doubt that it is a letter i wrote, and the signature is mine. . i have initialled the original of a letter dated december , , to mr. lee h. oswald, signed "bob chester," so that it may be substituted as r. watts exhibit for the typewritten copy shown me on april , . . as requested on pages - , i have made a further search of our files for the letter and reproductions from lee h. oswald referred to in the bob chester letter but have found no record of them. further, i have discussed this matter with mr. chester and he advises me that he has had a vague recollection that the reproductions were of headlines from the _militant_ but has no further recollection of any correspondence with lee h. oswald. . as requested on page , i have made a further search for a copy of r. watts exhibit and for the letter and clipping referred to in it as from lee h. oswald but have been unable to find any such material in our files. . as requested in j. lee rankin's letter to mr. rowland watts dated may , , i have made inquiry of the young socialist alliance and am advised that its files have been searched and that its representatives have found no record that lee h. oswald's name was ever referred to it, nor does it have any record of ever having had anything in its files from, to, or concerning lee h. oswald. . in pursuance of the information supplied in mr. rankin's letter to mr. watts dated may , , i have made inquiry of _the militant_ and have had its files further searched. there is no photograph of lee harvey oswald, with or without a rifle, in its files (other than a clipping from the daily press after he was taken into custody). i am confident no photograph of him was ever received prior to president kennedy's assassination. . to the best of my knowledge and belief, i have submitted to you all of the material in the files of the socialist workers party, _the militant_, and pioneer publishers, concerning lee harvey oswald, and i have no further material or information concerning him. signed the th day of june . (s) farrell dobbs, farrell dobbs. [c] since all of the rowland watts exhibits have been redesignated as farrell dobbs exhibits, r. watts exhibits nos. , , and referred to in the above affidavit have been marked farrell dobbs exhibits nos. , , and , respectively. affidavit of virginia gray the following affidavit was executed by virginia gray on may , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy state of north carolina, _county of durham, ss_: virginia gray, being duly sworn says: . my name is virginia gray. i am the assistant curator of manuscripts of the duke university library, durham, north carolina, (the library) and the person most familiar with the records of the socialist party of america which are now in the possession of the library. . the records of the library reflect that it purchased the original official records of the socialist party of america covering the period from to from leon kramer, a new york dealer in leftist literature. since the time of that original purchase the library has become the unofficial repository for files of the socialist party of america and periodically acquires the inactive records of that organization. . on or about january , the library acquired certain records of the socialist party of america from mr. stephen siteman, executive secretary of that party, east th street, new york, new york. . a letter dated october , addressed "dear sirs" from lee oswald and an advertisement coupon of "the socialist call", photostatic copies of which are attached to this affidavit, were found in those materials while they were being processed by the library.[d] . the library has received additional materials from the socialist party of america and is presently processing such materials. as of the date of this affidavit, however, the only materials relating to lee harvey oswald which have been found amongst the records of the socialist party of america presently in the possession of the library are those of which photostatic copies are attached. signed the th day of may . (s) virginia gray, (mrs.) virginia gray. [d] the photostatic copies referred to in the above affidavit have been marked gray exhibit no. . affidavit of dr. albert f. staples the following affidavit was executed by dr. albert f. staples on may , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy state of texas, _county of dallas, ss_: dr. albert f. staples, being duly sworn says: . my name is albert f. staples. i reside at ellsworth street, dallas, texas. i am a dentist at the baylor university college of dentistry and am familiar with the records in possession of the college relating to mrs. lee harvey oswald. . i have caused a search of the files of the baylor university college of dentistry which reveals a file on mrs. lee harvey oswald. the foregoing file is now in the possession of the deponent. to the best of my knowledge this file contains the only papers relating to mrs. lee harvey oswald in the possession or control of the baylor university college of dentistry. accordingly under my supervision photostatic copies[e] have been made of this entire file, such copies being attached to this affidavit. . on information and belief the attached photostatic copies are of the entire file and comprise all the papers relating to mrs. lee harvey oswald in the possession and control of the baylor university dental clinic. signed the th day of may . (s) dr. albert f. staples, dr. albert f. staples. [e] the photostatic copies referred to in the above affidavit have been marked staples exhibit no. . affidavit of katherine mallory the following affidavit was executed by katherine mallory on july , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy state of new york, _county of broome, ss_: i, katherine mallory, east main street, endicott, new york, being duly sworn say: . in i was a sophomore at the university of michigan. in march of , i was a member of the university of michigan band which toured russia and the near east. . we arrived in minsk, u.s.s.r. from moscow on march , . while in minsk, the band gave some concerts at the minsk polytechnic institute. we stayed in a hotel in minsk. we left minsk on march and proceeded to kiev, u.s.s.r. . there was an evening in minsk when members of the band were divided into small groups, each of which was assigned a russian interpreter, for the purpose of going on a tour of the facilities of the minsk polytechnic institute. . near the conclusion of this tour, at about : p.m., when the band members were boarding a bus, i became surrounded by russian students who were asking me questions. although one student was interpreting i was having difficulty communicating with them. . at this point, an american approached and offered to act as an interpreter. i accepted the offer. while i never really had a chance to talk with him, he mentioned that he was an ex-marine from texas. sometimes he spoke with a texas accent and at other times he spoke with an english accent. somehow i got the impression that he was working in russia and that he never intended to return to the united states. . this american appeared well dressed. i think he wore a camel hair coat and possibly a tie. he did not indicate if he had been at the concert. . after just a few minutes of further questions from the russian students, with the american interpreting, i boarded the bus. i never again saw nor heard from this individual. i noted in my diary something about the incident, and i wrote that this american seemed to be a crackpot. i did not meet any other americans in minsk. . i have seen pictures of lee harvey oswald in the newspaper, and the individual i saw in minsk very much resembles oswald as pictured. i recall that the person i saw seemed to have more hair and was heavier than lee harvey oswald as pictured in the newspapers. . except possibly for this one occasion in minsk, i never saw nor communicated with lee harvey oswald. signed the th day of july . (s) katherine mallory, katherine mallory. affidavit of katherine mallory the following affidavit was executed by katherine mallory on july , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy state of new york, _county of broome, ss_: i, katherine mallory, east main street, endicott, new york, being duly sworn say: following my telephone interview on july , with mr. richard mosk, i rechecked my diary of the university of michigan symphony band tour and letters which i sent to my parents. therefore, i append the following minor corrections of statements in the interest of being as accurate as i can. statements , , and . i made no mention of the tour of the institute and therefore cannot verify the details of the arrangement, i.e., small groups. however, i recall that the tour preceded the talent show. the following is a statement from my diary; "tonight the students at the bilo (sic) russian (white russian) polytechnic institute put on a talent show for us ... (description of performance).... afterward jerry anderson and i missed getting out with our crowd and we were mobbed by the students. i met a boy from texas (now a russian citizen) who translated questions and answers for me." in a letter to my parents dated march , , "the first night we were there, the students of the polytechnic institute gave us a reception and put on a very nice talent show. afterwards, we all were mobbed by the students. i met a young man probably about who is from texas but after the war he became a citizen of minsk. it was rather weird meeting an ex-american but he did come in handy as an interpreter for me and the other students i was talking to." statement . while i am sure that in conversations about this incident i applied term "crackpot" i did not note it in my diary. all other statements prepared on the basis of the telephone interview are true. signed the th day of july . (s) katherine mallory, katherine mallory. affidavit of mrs. monica kramer the following affidavit was executed by mrs. monica kramer on july , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy state of california, _county of santa barbara, ss_: i, mrs. monica kramer, janin way, sunny acres, solvang, california, being duly sworn say: . in , miss rita naman and i took a trip to europe which included a visit to the soviet union. miss. naman had purchased a singer automobile in great britain and we drove through europe and the soviet union. . when we were in moscow staying at the national hotel, we met mrs. marie hyde, who, to the best of my knowledge, presently resides in port angeles, washington. mrs. hyde was desirous of driving with us to warsaw. such an arrangement was made. . my travel notes indicate that we arrived in minsk, u.s.s.r., on august . after arriving at our hotel, we were asked to take a guided tour of minsk. we subsequently found out that after we left the hotel, our bags had been searched. out intourist guide's name was svetlana. . we visited the central square where we stopped to take some photographs. kramer exhibit , also labelled commission no. d, is a photograph taken by miss naman in minsk on august , . as i recall, it was taken between : p.m. and : p.m. the building in the background is the palace of culture, and the statue is one of joseph stalin. the automobile in the center of the picture is the one that was then owned by miss naman. the woman at the far left is the intourist guide. she appears to be speaking with me, the woman standing next to her. there are three men to the right of the automobile and a small boy in front of it, all of whom i did not know. . on every occasion that we stopped while on the trip through russia, people would gather around the automobile and look at it. as a result, we became accustomed to this and therefore paid little or no attention to these people. . i cannot recall these three men. i never spoke with them. it now appears to me that the man in the middle, wearing dark trousers and a dark, short-sleeved plaid shirt, resembles lee harvey oswald, whose picture i have seen in the newspapers. . i recall that miss naman spoke with somebody in minsk who spoke english. they talked about records. i do not recall if this person was lee harvey oswald. . we left minsk on august , . . except for possibly on august , , i never met nor communicated with lee harvey oswald. signed the th day of july . (s) mrs. monica kramer, mrs. monica kramer. affidavit of rita naman the following affidavit was executed by rita naman on july , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy state of california, _county of santa barbara, ss_: i, rita naman, janin way, sunny acres, solvang, california, being duly sworn say: . i am in the real estate business in santa ynez, california, and i live with mrs. monica kramer. . in , mrs. kramer and i took a trip to europe. i purchased an automobile in england, and we drove it through europe and the soviet union. . while in moscow we stayed at the national hotel. there we met mrs. marie hyde, who, as far as i know, currently resides in port angeles, washington. we arranged to drive her to warsaw, poland. . all three of us left moscow and travelled to minsk, u. s. s. r. we arrived there on august , . after going to our hotel, i was called by the intourist office and asked to go there. the official at the intourist office wanted to know why i was in russia. he appeared hostile. i suspect that they were interested in me because in moscow, i had given a person who claimed to be a student a newsweek magazine along with my business card. the official then insisted that mrs. kramer, mrs. hyde, and i go on a tour of minsk. when we returned to our room after the tour, we found that our luggage had been searched. . our intourist guide's name was svetlana. we visited the central square where we stopped to take some photographs. kramer exhibit , also labelled commission no. d, is a photograph taken by me at this time. as i recall, it was taken about or : p.m. the building in the background is the palace of culture, and the statue is one of joseph stalin. the automobile in the center of the picture was owned by me. the woman at the far left is the intourist guide. she appears to be speaking with a woman standing next to her, who is mrs. kramer. there are three men to the right of the automobile and a small boy in front of it, all of whom i did not know. . kramer exhibit no. , also labelled commission no. c, is a photograph taken by me at the same place and at about the same time; however, i took this photograph with mrs. hyde's camera. in this photograph mrs. hyde is at the far left with the intourist guide and mrs. kramer. only two men are pictured to the right of the car. . i do not remember speaking to any of the men pictured in kramer exhibit and in kramer exhibit . i was so disturbed by the earlier interview with the intourist guide official, that i cannot remember much of what happened thereafter. . i do recall that after this photograph was taken, i went to a nearby record store. when i left the store, a man spoke to me in an american accent and asked me about my car. he asked how many miles to the gallon it travelled. i do not recall if this man was the same one pictured in kramer exhibit and in kramer exhibit . . the man appearing in these photographs, wearing dark trousers and a dark, short-sleeved, check shirt, resembles lee harvey oswald, whose picture i have seen in the newspapers. . except for possibly on august , , i never met nor communicated with lee harvey oswald. . we left minsk on august , . signed the th day of july . (s) rita naman, rita naman. affidavit of john bryan mcfarland and meryl mcfarland the following affidavit was executed by john bryan mcfarland and meryl mcfarland on may , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy great britain and northern ireland, _county of lancaster, city of liverpool, consulate of the united states of america, ss_: before me wilfred v. duke, consul of the united states of america, duly commissioned and qualified, personally came john bryan mcfarland and meryl mcfarland, of a riversdale road, liverpool, , england, who being duly sworn, depose and say that: q. when and where did you board the bus for mexico city? a. we boarded the continental trailways bus at jackson, mississippi, and traveled via connecting buses to mexico city where we arrived september , . q. when and where did you first see the man later identified as lee harvey oswald? a. we changed buses at houston, texas, at : a.m. september th and it was probably about : a.m. after it became light that we first saw him. q. what reason did oswald give for traveling to mexico? a. he stated that he was en route to cuba and that he could not travel there from the united states as it was against the law. q. did you see oswald speaking to any other persons? a. yes. we observed him conversing occasionally with two young australian women who boarded the bus on the evening of september th at monterrey, mexico. he also conversed occasionally with an elderly man who sat in the seat next to him for a time. q. when did it first occur to you that lee harvey oswald was the man you had met on the bus? a. when we saw his pictures in the newspapers. q. how many suitcases was oswald carrying when he boarded the bus at houston, texas, or any other time? a. we did not see him carrying any suitcases at any time. q. did oswald check any luggage with the bus company so it would have been carried underneath the bus in the baggage compartment? a. we never actually saw him check any luggage in with the bus company, but in the bus station at mexico city the last we saw of him was waiting at the luggage check-out place obviously to collect some luggage. q. what kind of luggage was he carrying? a. we did not notice but presume he must have been carrying some hand luggage. q. did he check any suitcases or other packages at a place en route to mexico city or otherwise dispose of them? a. we never actually saw him check any luggage in with the bus company, but in the bus station at mexico city the last we saw of him was waiting at the luggage check-out place obviously to collect some luggage. q. what kind of clothing was he wearing? a. as far as we recollect, ordinary slacks and, a more definite recollection, a sort of zipper jerkin. q. did he mention any names or places either in the united states or mexico, in any connection whatever? a. only new orleans, whence he said he had come. in the course of conversation, we worked out that he must have left new orleans at about the same time we had left jackson, mississippi, i.e. : p.m. on wednesday, september th, . q. did he show you any documents, such as passport or fair play for cuba committee card, or letters, newspaper clippings or other similar material? if so, describe them as fully as possible. a. we saw no document, but he said he was the secretary of the new orleans branch of the fair play for cuba organization, and that he was on his way to cuba to see castro if he could. we saw him at the next table to ourselves in the customs shed at laredo, but did not notice his passport or tourist card. signed the th day of may . (s) j. b. mcfarland, john bryan mcfarland. (s) meryl mcfarland, meryl mcfarland. testimony of pamela mumford the testimony of pamela mumford was taken at : p.m., on may , , at wilshire boulevard, los angeles, calif., by mr. joseph a. ball, assistant counsel of the president's commission. miss mumford was accompanied by her attorney, mr. c. c. dillavou. pamela mumford, called as a witness herein, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: mr. ball. you received a letter, didn't you, from mr. rankin, as counsel for the commission, advising you that we would request you to give your deposition? miss mumford. yes; that's right. mr. ball. and you also received a copy of the joint resolution of the congress, didn't you, authorizing the commission to proceed to investigate the facts concerning the assassination of president kennedy? miss mumford. yes. mr. ball. and you willingly give your deposition today, do you not? miss mumford. i do. mr. ball. to tell us all the facts that you might know to assist us in this investigation? miss mumford. right. mr. ball. your name is pamela mumford? miss mumford. right. mr. ball. where do you live? miss mumford. north new hampshire avenue, los angeles . mr. ball. what is your occupation? miss mumford. secretary. mr. ball. a legal secretary? miss mumford. legal secretary. mr. ball. and you work for the firm of dillavou & cox, do you? miss mumford. right. mr. ball. that is in a building at th and grand, los angeles, calif.? miss mumford. right. mr. ball. now, because of the fact that you will not appear before the commission, and the members of the commission will have to read this deposition, they would like to know something about you: where you were born, your education. so, just go ahead and tell me all you can about yourself. miss mumford. well, i was born in the fiji islands in , and my father was transferred to australia in . i was brought up and went to school in australia until . and then i traveled to england, where i worked for a period of a year. i went to europe and then i obtained a working visa to come to the united states. i worked in new york for months and then my friend and i traveled through the united states and mexico on our way to los angeles where we intended to remain. mr. ball. now, what was your friend's name? miss mumford. patricia winston. mr. ball. and she left australia with you, did she? miss mumford. she left with me, yes. we had been traveling together for years. and she also made the journey through the states and through mexico with me. that takes us up to los angeles. mr. ball. when did you arrive in los angeles? miss mumford. in the first week of november . mr. ball. is patricia winston a legal secretary also? miss mumford. no; patricia is an occupational therapist, who was also born in the fiji islands and raised in australia. our families were friends. and she was unable to obtain work in california owing to certain california laws. she had to sit for some exam to enable her to work here. so, finally, she returned home to australia in january, mid-january. and she is there now. mr. ball. as of ? miss mumford. yes. mr. ball. how old is patricia winston? miss mumford. she is . mr. ball. you took a trip into mexico last fall, didn't you? miss mumford. yes. mr. ball. and did you travel from new york to mexico? miss mumford. well, we traveled by bus on a scheme which allowed us to travel on trailways buses for a period of months for a certain amount. we just got on and off at various places we wanted to see: for instance, washington, d.c.; miami, where we stayed a week; then we went across to new orleans, down through texas to laredo, and from laredo we crossed the border also by bus and went to monterrey. we spent one day in monterrey and left by bus at : p.m. at monterrey, and it was on that bus that we met lee harvey oswald. mr. ball. where did you buy your ticket to mexico? miss mumford. well, the ticket we had on this deal enabled us only to travel in the states, not in mexico. so, we bought the ticket on the bus at laredo and that enabled us to stop off in monterrey. but the ticket was from laredo to mexico city. mr. ball. and from what company did you buy the ticket? miss mumford. as far as i can remember, it was a bus company called transporter del norte. mr. ball. and did you buy the bus ticket in laredo at the trailways bus depot? miss mumford. yes. mr. ball. what date did you buy the bus ticket? miss mumford. it must have been september . mr. ball. and you left laredo at what time? miss mumford. early september the th. mr. ball. didn't you leave the bus depot at laredo on september th, about o'clock in the morning, or was it september ? miss mumford. september . now, hold on. we had one day in monterrey and one night in monterrey. we left monterrey, i know, on the night of september at : p.m. mr. ball. and you had come down to monterrey from laredo the day before, hadn't you? miss mumford. the day before, yes. mr. ball. now, on the way from laredo to monterrey you didn't see oswald? miss mumford. no. mr. ball. you saw him on a bus that left monterrey? miss mumford. that left monterrey. but he had traveled from laredo on that same bus. mr. ball. how do you know that? miss mumford. he told us. mr. ball. now, you got on the bus at monterrey on the evening of september at : p.m., you just told me? miss mumford. yes. mr. ball. and what was the company that operated that bus, do you know? miss mumford. that was also transporter del norte. mr. ball. and were there the same accommodations for all travelers? miss mumford. yes; there were. there were four seats in the front that were occupied by english-speaking people. but, having got on so late in the journey, we were taken down to the back to sit with the mexicans. and we were the only english-speaking people at the back of the bus. mr. ball. all others were mexican-speaking? miss mumford. yes. mr. ball. now, who were the english-speaking people that you mentioned? will you describe them? miss mumford. there was a young english couple who were traveling down to the yucatan to study the indians and their way of life. there was an elderly english gentleman in his mid- or late-sixties, i should imagine. he told us during the journey that he had lived on and off in mexico for years. then there was the young texan, lee harvey oswald, and patricia and myself. mr. ball. now, when you first boarded the bus did you speak to the english-speaking people? miss mumford. we got on and oswald heard patricia and i talking. and we had two heavy overnight bags, and he told us later that he had turned to his companion, who was the middle-aged english gentleman, and said, "i wonder how you say 'how can i help you' in spanish", which gave us the opinion later that he couldn't speak the language: couldn't speak spanish. he took us for two spanish girls, i guess, and was going to help us with our luggage. mr. ball. did he help you with your luggage? miss mumford. no. mr. ball. you went on to the back of the bus? miss mumford. yes. mr. ball. you didn't say anything to the four english-speaking people when you first got on the bus? miss mumford. no. mr. ball. and they didn't speak to you? miss mumford. no. mr. ball. when did you first speak to any of these four? miss mumford. oswald was the first one we spoke to. he left his seat and came down to the back of the bus to speak to us. mr. ball. that was after the bus had left monterrey? miss mumford. yes. mr. ball. and while it was en route? miss mumford. yes. mr. ball. what did he say to you? miss mumford. well, he said that he had heard us speaking english and wondered where we came from. he then told us the story of how he had thought we were mexican and was going to help us if he could speak the language. mr. ball. what did he say? can you tell me his language as close as you can? miss mumford. no, i can't really put it into his words; not at that stage. he then proceeded to tell us about himself. mr. ball. what did he say? miss mumford. i will have to refer to notes. oh, yes; the first thing he told us was that he was from fort worth, in texas. and he wanted to know where we had been, and we told him we were australians. he wanted to know the places we had visited. we told him. and he mentioned that he had been in japan while he was in the marines, and that was the closest he had got to australia and that he would very much like to go to australia. he then told us that he had been to russia and asked whether we had ever been to russia. we said no, and we told him of a friend of ours, a fellow australian, who had been to moscow, and her experiences there. and we asked him what he was doing in russia and did he have trouble getting in. he said that he was studying there. he had an apartment in moscow and was studying. we didn't ask him what he was studying. at this stage he showed us his passport that had a russian stamp on it; some sort of a russian stamp. and he didn't mention his russian wife at all. but we noticed he had a gold wedding ring on his left hand. we made about three stops or four stops every or hours, and he didn't speak to us during these stops. we got speaking to the other british people. mr. ball. did he speak to you again after that time that he first came back? miss mumford. yes; oh, about hours before we arrived in mexico city he asked us whether we had accommodations arranged there. and we said no, we had a vague idea from a book called "mexico on five dollars a day" where we were going to stay. and he suggested that on previous trips to mexico city he had stayed at a place called the hotel cuba, and he recommended it for clean and cheap living. and he then made a crack that he wasn't suggesting the hotel cuba because he was going to be there; he just suggested it to help us. and we decided that we wouldn't take him up on his suggestion; that we would go our own way. then we arrived in the mexico city bus station and he didn't speak to us, attempt to speak to us at all. he was one of the first off the bus and the last i remember seeing him he was standing across the end of the room. mr. ball. at the bus station? miss mumford. at the bus station. and we left by taxi. mr. ball. then you had two conversations with him? miss mumford. yes. mr. ball. or more? miss mumford. no; two. during the trip i engaged the middle-aged english gentleman in conversation, asking him about the weather, and what it was like usually. and he said, "the young man traveling beside me has traveled to mexico also. why don't you talk to him?" and that was all. mr. ball. where were you when you talked to the english gentleman; the elderly man? miss mumford. just standing outside at one of the rest stops, standing outside waiting to board the bus. mr. ball. did you talk to any one of these four people as the bus was en route, except oswald; the four english-speaking people? miss mumford. not on the bus. we did speak to the young english couple for a while, told them where we had lived in london, and they had told us very vaguely, i remember, that they were also traveling through the united states, but their main aim wasn't to go to the tourist resorts in america but to go down to mexico. mr. ball. did you get their names? did they tell you their names? miss mumford. no. mr. ball. you didn't ask them their name? miss. mumford. no. mr. ball. when did you talk to this elderly english gentleman who was sitting beside oswald when you first got on the bus? miss mumford. the only time we talked to him was at one of the rest stops outside the bus. and i just happened to ask him about the weather, and that was the only conversation. mr. ball. did he say anything else to you on the trip except that there was a young man sitting next to him that had been in mexico before? miss mumford. no. mr. ball. that's all he said? miss mumford. yes. mr. ball. about how many people were on this bus? miss mumford. there must have been about rows on both sides, with two people on each. about , . it was crowded. mr. ball. i have a note here of a statement you made to an agent for the federal bureau of investigation on the th of december in which it was reported that you estimated about passengers. do you recall that? did you ever say that? miss mumford. well, these were conflicting reports, naturally. the fbi questioned patricia at our apartment and he then questioned me here and, naturally, two people get different ideas on a bus load. but, it was well crowded. there were a lot of children on the bus. i should imagine there would be--they were long, great big, long, heavy buses. mr. ball. were there any vacant seats when you got on? miss mumford. quite a few people boarded in monterrey. and we were a bit frightened that we wouldn't get a seat together. but i think we were one of the few people who got on first. mr. ball. what part of the bus did you sit in? miss mumford. in the middle of the bus, more towards the back than the front. mr. ball. did the english man ever come back while you were being seated and speak in spanish to any of the mexican people? miss mumford. no. mr. ball. you don't recall that the english man ever came back and asked the mexican people to make room for you to sit down? miss mumford. no. mr. ball. at the bus stops, you say, you did not talk to oswald? miss mumford. no. he was the first off the bus and the last back on. he had a meal at every bus stop. mr. ball. oh, he did? miss mumford. yes. mr. ball. he ate at every bus stop? miss mumford. yes. i never saw him ordering. i took it that he didn't speak the language, but he always managed to order himself a large meal, because he never seemed to get it over to them what he wanted. mr. ball. what gave you the impression that he did not speak the language? miss mumford. well, simply that on arriving on the bus he told us--when we had boarded the bus he had told us that he had turned to the english gentleman and asked "i wonder how you say 'can i help you' in spanish." mr. ball. you told him when he came back to talk to you that you had had a friend travel in russia? miss mumford. yes. mr. ball. and you say you had mentioned her experiences. what did you tell him about that? miss mumford. well, we said that she had come back and told us that moscow was a beautiful city and she had gathered the impression that they were being taken on a tour and shown only what they wanted to be shown. she, being a school teacher, asked a lot of questions of their female guide, and the questions just were evaded or not answered. and she said she got the impression that she was told to say certain things and nothing else. mr. ball. did oswald make any remark to that? miss mumford. no; the only remark he made on his life in moscow was that he had had a lot of trouble getting out. that's all he said. mr. ball. did he make any statement at all concerning his life in the soviet union; whether he had enjoyed the stay there or not? miss mumford. no; he gave me the impression that he was the average, normal american citizen who had gone over there and had wanted to get out and couldn't get out for some red tape reasons. mr. ball. did he say anything or make any mention of politics? miss mumford. no; never. mr. ball. did he mention anything about communism, socialism, or anything of that sort? miss mumford. no; he never said anything about his political views or even mention politics at all. mr. ball. you did see his passport, though? miss mumford. yes. mr. ball. how did he happen to show you this passport? miss mumford. well, i think it was rather to prove that he had been in russia. i think he was trying to find places that we hadn't been that he had, and he just--in fact, he left us at the seat to go up and take his passport from his traveling bag and bring it down to show us. mr. ball. had he told you his name before that? miss mumford. he never mentioned his name once. mr. ball. he never did? miss mumford. he never introduced himself; no. mr. ball. how did you know his name? miss mumford. we didn't. mr. ball. did you notice the name on the passport? miss mumford. well, i didn't; no. pat says it rang a bell when the rest of the business came up, and we recognized him on television. and she said, when the name came through on the television, it did ring a bell with her, but she said even then she couldn't picture that name on the passport. mr. ball. you did see the name on the passport, did you? miss mumford. well, yes, he must have shown it to us. i can't really remember. mr. ball. but you didn't remember the name? miss mumford. no. mr. ball. you made no note of it? miss mumford. no. mr. ball. did the elderly englishman ever make a statement to you as to whether or not the young man sitting next to him on the bus, that is, oswald, had been to mexico city before, or been to mexico before? miss mumford. yes; oswald must have told him he had been there numerous times, because this englishman did refer us, or did refer me to oswald and say "he has been there before. why don't you ask him?" mr. ball. did he say he had been to mexico city or mexico before? miss mumford. i think we were speaking about mexico generally, because we had contemplated a trip down to acapulco, and i was interested in the difference in temperatures. mr. ball. was that at a bus stop? miss mumford. yes, outside the bus; a rest stop. mr. ball. now, you gained some impression, didn't you, from talking to the english man, that he had not known oswald before? miss mumford. only by his reference to oswald as "the young man sitting next to me." they were talking quite a lot, the four of them. in the first two seats were the young english couple, and directly behind them were oswald, sitting on the aisle, and the englishman, sitting near the window. and we could hear them talking a lot, and laughing, when we were sitting in the back, wondering what was going on. mr. ball. did you gain the impression from anything else said by the englishman that he was not traveling in the company of oswald? miss mumford. no. mr. ball. nothing except that he referred to him as the young man---- miss mumford. yes; but they never spoke to each other on rest stops. oswald just went his way completely. mr. ball. when you arrived at mexico city did the english man get off the bus with oswald, or at the same time when oswald did? miss mumford. i don't remember. i remember oswald was standing completely alone in the bus station. mr. ball. what did the englishman do? miss mumford. i don't remember what he did at all. we got off the bus and i don't remember seeing him leave the bus even. mr. ball. now, did you have any conversation with the english couple to indicate that they had never before seen oswald? miss mumford. no; i don't think they made any reference to him at all. mr. ball. the federal bureau of investigation agent that you talked to on the th of december stated this: that in talking with the englishman, the elderly englishman, he said, and i will quote what he put down, "i gather the young man sitting with me has been to mexico city before." do you remember words like that used by the englishman? miss mumford. that may have been his words. i really don't remember. that was just the general impression i got of what he said to me. mr. ball. now, also at that time, the agent reported that it was your opinion that "oswald was traveling alone, and that he had had no previous contact with any of the english-speaking people on the bus prior to that time." did you tell him that? miss mumford. yes; and that is still my opinion. mr. ball. did you have breakfast on that morning before you got into one of your stops? did you have a breakfast? miss mumford. yes. mr. ball. where? did you notice the name of the place? miss mumford. no; i don't know the name of the place. it was about a.m. in the morning and we arrived in mexico city at about , so it would have been about hours before we arrived in the city. mr. ball. did you eat with oswald at that time; eat breakfast with him? miss mumford. no. mr. ball. did he eat breakfast with anyone? miss mumford. i don't remember at that particular stage. earlier in the night, twice, i knew he ate alone. mr. ball. in the statement which the agent reported, the agent reported his conversation with you, and he says that, "oswald always ate alone except for breakfast on the morning of september , , when he ate with the english couple." do you remember whether oswald ate breakfast with the english couple? miss mumford. i don't; no. pat may have remembered that. i don't remember seeing him at all in that particular restaurant. mr. ball. did you give this young man a nickname? miss mumford. "texas." mr. ball. did you call him "texas" to his face? miss mumford. no. mr. ball. you just called him "texas" when you---- miss mumford. no; we wrote home from mexico city describing the awful bus trip, with crying kids, et cetera, and happened to mention that there was a young texan and we called him "texas." mr. ball. but you didn't call him "texas" to his face? miss mumford. no, no. mr. ball. how was this boy from texas dressed? miss mumford. he was dressed casually. i don't remember what color trousers he had on. he had on a dark sweater. i know that. it was a wool sweater, a sort of a charcoal gray color. when we saw him on television, being arrested or being taken down to the dallas county jail, patricia was the first to recognize that that was the same sweater. we were reluctant to believe this, of course, at first; that we knew this man. but she said the thinning hair on the top, the thinning, curly, wiry hair, plus the sweater that she recognized right away, and i recognized afterwards, made us almost certain that this was the same man. mr. ball. did he have a shirt on? miss mumford. i don't remember. in discussing this with patricia she said that she felt he had some sort of a checked shirt on, just underneath. mr. ball. he didn't have a tie on? miss mumford. no. mr. ball. open? miss mumford. open sport shirt; yes. mr. ball. and did he have on a jersey; pale-green jersey that you noticed? miss mumford. no; not pale green. mr. ball. now, you said he had some luggage. did you see the luggage? miss mumford. yes. mr. ball. how much luggage did he have? miss mumford. just one medium sized--i can't remember whether it was an overnight bag or one of these pouch affairs, you know. mr. ball. was it a zipper bag? miss mumford. well, i thought it was a zipper bag. i am not really certain on that point. mr. ball. what color was it? miss mumford. i don't know. mr. ball. did he have the bag with him in the seat, or near the seat where he was sitting? miss mumford. up on the railing, above him. mr. ball. and when he left the bus in mexico city did he carry the luggage with him? miss mumford. i can't say for sure. mr. ball. when you last saw him standing in the bus depot did he have a piece of luggage in his hand? miss mumford. i can't remember that either. mr. ball. did oswald tell you where he had boarded the bus? miss mumford. no; i don't think he did. mr. ball. what was the name of the bus depot in mexico city where you last saw oswald? miss mumford. i am not sure of that. i know the name of the bus, or i am fairly certain of the name of the bus. but i am not sure of the bus station. mr. ball. were there a lot of bus stations? miss mumford. well, that is a point i am not sure of. we took a bus down to acapulco from mexico city and i have the feeling that was the busline we took to acapulco. i know there are about three different buslines situated in different places in mexico city, and i am not sure just what was the name of the depot we came into. mr. ball. now, again, on the luggage, did he have one or more pieces of luggage? miss mumford. i think it was one. mr. ball. just one? miss mumford. yes. mr. ball. and that was a zipper type? miss mumford. yes. mr. ball. are you able to tell me what color it was? miss mumford. no. mr. ball. you saw oswald on television after the president had been shot, didn't you? miss mumford. yes. mr. ball. now, tell me where you were when you saw the television and who was with you and what you said. miss mumford. on the friday night of the d, pat and i left by bus for las vegas for the weekend. patricia was not working at that time. i am not sure whether she had seen television shots--i think we had both seen television shots before we left for the bus station. i am not familiar with whether we realized at that stage that it was him or not. i remember in las vegas we had a television in our motel room and it was then that we were both very sure that it was the same man. mr. ball. you saw him on television, did you? miss mumford. yes. mr. ball. and you thought you recognized him then? miss mumford. yes. mr. ball. as the man you had met on the bus? miss mumford. yes. mr. ball. the man you have referred to as "texas"? miss mumford. yes; well, we knew we had seen him somewhere before, and we were sort of going over our travels in our mind, and it hit us that it was on that bus, particularly when they said he was from fort worth, or from texas. mr. ball. now, can you give me a description of the englishman; what he looked like? you told me his approximate age. miss mumford. he was short. yes; about ' ". quite bald, plump; fat. he was also dressed casually. mr. ball. did he have a tie on? miss mumford. i don't remember. he seemed to me not to be well dressed. he was scruffy. he spoke well. he spoke with a cultured english accent more than a cockney or a suburbia accent. mr. ball. did he tell you whether or not he had lived in mexico before? miss mumford. yes; not--he didn't specify mexico city. he said that he had lived on and off in mexico for years. mr. ball. did he tell you his name? miss mumford. no. mr. ball. well, you were shown pictures of a man later on by the federal bureau of investigation agent, were you not? miss mumford. yes. mr. ball. and they showed you pictures of oswald, didn't they; lee harvey oswald? miss mumford. no. mr. ball. you didn't ever see a picture of oswald? miss mumford. no. mr. ball. but they showed you pictures of a man, did they not? miss mumford. yes; they showed us two pictures the first time, one picture i was fairly certain was the same gentleman. the other picture, whom they said was the same man, i couldn't give that description--i couldn't say definitely that it was him or even the same man. the second time the fbi official showed me a photo was some weeks or months later and i could make a definite--what is the word i want? mr. ball. identification? miss mumford. identification of that picture. mr. ball. what did you tell the agent? miss mumford. well, that third picture, on the second time he had showed it to me, was, i was certain, the same man. mr. ball. you mean the elderly englishman? miss mumford. the elderly englishman. mr. ball. that you had seen on the bus? miss mumford. yes. mr. ball. did you ever see this englishman again? miss mumford. no. mr. ball. except this night, or this ride on the bus? miss mumford. yes; that was the only time. mr. ball. did they tell you that the englishman's name was john howard bowen? miss mumford. no; i don't recall ever being told his name. mr. ball. or that he might have had the name albert osborne? miss mumford. no. mr. ball. you don't remember either of those? miss mumford. no. mr. ball. was your friend with you when the agent showed you the pictures? miss mumford. the first set of pictures, she was still in this country and she was also shown them. the second set of pictures was shown to me after she had left. mr. ball. when the first set of pictures was shown to your friend patricia winston, what did she say? miss mumford. if i remember correctly, she felt the same way as i did: that one of the photos was a good likeness, and the other one she couldn't make an identification. mr. ball. do you have anything else that you would care to say; any impressions that you obtained from this ride on the bus that you think might be of assistance to us? miss mumford. no. mr. ball. you have told us about all you know about that trip, have you, now? miss mumford. yes. mr. ball. this will be written up and submitted to you for your signature, i hope this week. mr. dillavou. you mentioned to me, pam, something about the frugality of this boy in his travels. i don't know if you want that---- mr. ball. yes; we would like that. miss mumford. oh, yes; he did say that the hotel cuba was a very cheap place to stay, and i think either patricia or myself made the comment, "well, that suits us fine because that is the way we do it, too." that is the only thing i can remember that he said that referred to his way of travel. mr. ball. did he say anything about how much money he had, or how much he could spend or would spend? miss mumford. no. mr. ball. that's all. testimony of dial duwayne ryder the testimony of dial duwayne ryder was taken at : p.m., on march , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. liebeler. would you please rise, i will swear you as a witness. do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. ryder. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. please be seated. my name is wesley j. liebeler. i am a member of the legal staff of the president's commission investigating the assassination of president kennedy. staff members have been authorized to take testimony of witnesses by the commission pursuant to authority granted to it by executive order no. dated november , , and joint resolution of congress no. . the commission has adopted rules of procedure in conformance with the executive order and the joint resolution. i understand that mr. rankin, the general counsel to the commission, wrote you a letter last week and told you that i would contact you to take your testimony this week. he sent with that letter, i understand, a copy of that executive order and joint resolution together with a copy of the rules of procedure adopted by the commission for the taking of testimony of witnesses. you received that letter? mr. ryder. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. and copies of the papers i referred to? mr. ryder. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. today we want to examine you briefly concerning the possibility that you did some work on a rifle for a man by the name of oswald who may in fact have been lee harvey oswald. before we get into that, we would like to have you state your full name for the court reporter. mr. ryder. dial duwayne [spelling] r-y-d-e-r. mr. liebeler. what is your address? mr. ryder. harvard. mr. liebeler. what city? mr. ryder. irving, tex. mr. liebeler. where are you employed, mr. ryder? mr. ryder. irving sports shop. mr. liebeler. where is that? mr. ryder. east irving boulevard, irving, tex. mr. liebeler. what kind of place is the irving sports shop? mr. ryder. well, it's a retail sporting goods store. mr. liebeler. what do you do in your work there? mr. ryder. actually, my capacity is, i guess you could refer to it as service manager. i do all the service work, gun work, outboard motor work, rig boats. i guess you say general flunkie or service man you refer to it as. mr. liebeler. how old are you? mr. ryder. twenty-five. mr. liebeler. were you born here in texas? mr. ryder. no, sir; i was born in claremont, ill. mr. liebeler. when did you move to texas? mr. ryder. . mr. liebeler. ? mr. ryder. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. where did you go to school? mr. ryder. irving high school; actually, i went all the way through the irving public school system. mr. liebeler. and you graduated from the irving public high school? mr. ryder. yes. mr. liebeler. when did you graduate from high school? mr. ryder. . mr. liebeler. how long have you been working for the irving sports shop? mr. ryder. five years be close enough; it's a little less than , but covers it. mr. liebeler. are you married? mr. ryder. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. do you have children? mr. ryder. no, sir. mr. liebeler. how long have you been married? mr. ryder. five years. mr. liebeler. have you been in the military service? mr. ryder. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. what branch were you in? mr. ryder. went in the national guard, th armored division which i am still an active member. mr. liebeler. of the national guard? mr. ryder. yes. mr. liebeler. did you serve on active duty with the u.s. army? mr. ryder. yes. mr. liebeler. for years? mr. ryder. no; actually it was, let's see, i guess you say it was months, , something like that. in other words, while i was on months' training, they activated the th armored division and i was called in to stay extra months on active duty. mr. liebeler. where were you stationed while on active duty? mr. ryder. fort leonard wood, fort knox for advanced individual training, and fort polk, la., with the th. mr. liebeler. what kind of training did you receive? mr. ryder. armored tank training. mr. liebeler. you served as a tanker at fort polk? mr. ryder. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. what is your rank in the national guard? mr. ryder. now? mr. liebeler. yes. mr. ryder. sergeant. mr. liebeler. what was it at the time you went into active duty? mr. ryder. it was june in when i reported to fort leonard wood. mr. liebeler. june what? what was your rank when you went on active duty? mr. ryder. i was just an e- . mr. liebeler. e- ? mr. ryder. yes; or private--beginner--actually, i had months actually, national guard work which waives your time for e- , three months' period. of course, there isn't much difference in pay rate. mr. liebeler. it appears that there was a newspaper story that appeared in the dallas times herald on november , , and apparently a version of that story was carried in the new york times on november , , which mentions you. do you recall being interviewed by a reporter from a dallas newspaper? mr. ryder. after the story was out; yes--before, no. mr. liebeler. what do you mean by that? mr. ryder. well, the deal is the story came out on thanksgiving and early that morning the telephone rang--i would say roughly : or , something like that--and i answered the phone and a guy introduced himself and i told him i didn't have any comment and hung up. mr. liebeler. this was a newspaperman? mr. ryder. to tell you the truth, i didn't pay that much attention. i was half asleep because it was a day off. i was going to get some of that extra dozing time, you know, and i just told him i didn't have any comment and hung the phone up and took it off the hook and later on that day, cbs television came out and they were wanting a blownup deal on it to put on television when they found it was opposite which came out in the times herald. mr. liebeler. in other words, you were not interviewed as far as you can remember by a newspaper reporter prior to the time the story came out in the times herald? mr. ryder. not as far as i know. i was interviewed by the fbi and dallas police department and i believe a couple secret service men came out. mr. liebeler. which one of those interviewed you first? mr. ryder. the fbi was the first one out. mr. liebeler. do you remember what the date was when the fbi first interviewed you? mr. ryder. it was on monday, the day of the funeral of president kennedy. mr. liebeler. that would have been november . friday was the d, saturday would be the d, sunday the h, monday the th. do you remember the name of the fbi man? mr. ryder. mr. horton. mr. liebeler. horton [spelling] e-m-o-r-y e. h-o-r-t-o-n? mr. ryder. i didn't get his first name. his last name stuck with me--well, i don't know why; it just stayed there. mr. liebeler. what did mr. horton say to you and what did you say to him, to the best of your recollection? mr. ryder. of course, we were closed on that monday. mr. liebeler. the irving sports shop was closed? mr. ryder. right, and he came to the house, so, at that time he showed me pictures of lee harvey oswald and pictures of the gun and asked me about it. i said "well, the face and the body features of oswald there was real common in this country." i mean, you know, in this area in texas and that to say that i had him in the shop, actually, this was after a period of time that we boiled it down to. oh, i told him i had a ticket with the name oswald, no date, no address, just for drilling and tapping and boresighting--no address, or name; he didn't say he'd like to see the ticket and was looking at the pictures, then i seen the gun. of course, from the picture i told him as far as i could remember i told him i hadn't mounted that scope, you know. mr. liebeler. you based that statement that you had not mounted the scope on your recollection that you had not worked on that particular kind of rifle, is that correct? mr. ryder. right, on this italian rifle--i never worked on them. i seen them but as far as doing any physical work, i haven't done none even to this date, i haven't worked on any of them. mr. liebeler. you are absolutely sure about that? mr. ryder. i am positive on that, very positive. so, we went up to the irving sports shop and i opened it up and got the ticket and showed him. it was just a little repair ticket actually what it amounted to. mr. liebeler. did it have a number on it? mr. ryder. yes, sir; i don't remember the number. mr. liebeler. did you give the tag to mr. horton? mr. ryder. no; he told us to hold on to it, keep it and they would probably get it later on and they did. it seems to me like it was or weeks ago they came and got it now. mr. liebeler. just or weeks ago? mr. ryder. yes. mr. liebeler. who came and got it? mr. ryder. i don't know; the boss, mr. greener, gave it to him. it was on saturday, i believe it was. mr. liebeler. did that tag indicate the nature of the work that was to be done? mr. ryder. well, actually, all it had on it was drill and tapping; it said drill and tap and a price of $ . , i believe it was and boresight, of course, no charge on that, so by us charging $ . a hole--that's what we normally charge for drillin' and tappin'--would on this particular thing, would have been three holes drill and tap, where in the picture of the gun there was only two screws holding the mount of the scope on which is, more or less, made it positive we hadn't mounted it on the gun, so mr. horton, so he took it for granted that i hadn't done the work on it and i am sure i haven't because---- mr. liebeler. what kind of gun was it? mr. ryder. it was a . italian. mr. liebeler. do you know the make? mr. ryder. like i say, i have seen several of them but as far as who made the gun, i don't know; probably some italian gun manufacturer but as far as who it was, i don't know. i can't read italian. mr. liebeler. could you tell from looking at the ticket when this work was done? first of all, the tag was not dated? mr. ryder. the tag was not dated. mr. liebeler. could you make any estimate of the time by looking at this ticket as to when the work was done? mr. ryder. well, it was done sometime between the st and th of november. mr. liebeler. how could you tell that? mr. ryder. because the work was done while the greeners or the woody francis greeners, the owners of the sport shop were on vacation. mr. liebeler. how do you know? mr. ryder. they were gone that weeks. mr. liebeler. how do you know it was done while they were gone? mr. ryder. actually, i can't really say too definitely sure but i am quite sure it was because he doesn't remember seeing the gun in the shop while he was there. in other words, before they left, and of course, it was gone when they came back. mr. liebeler. when you say "the gun," what do you mean? mr. ryder. the one i worked on--in other words, he keeps a pretty good watch on my work to make sure i'm getting it out on time and he will check fairly close every day, every other day, and check to make sure i'm getting the work out, that old work isn't laying there to be done. he's pretty sharp on remembering names and he would have remembered that quite surely if---- mr. liebeler. do you have much work of this type? mr. ryder. yes, sir; at that time. mr. liebeler. you did have quite a lot of work at this time mounting telescopic sights? mr. ryder. yes; when they left, that's weeks prior to the opening of the deer season here and i guess that weeks i mounted , , maybe scopes in that week as well as run the business while they was gone which is quite a headache in itself. that's just prior to hunting season, you see. just like i told everybody all along, i couldn't say specifically if it was by seeing pictures if it was him or another oswald. in other words, i don't put that close relation to a man's face to a particular item of work. mr. liebeler. when did the deer season open--the th or th of november? mr. ryder. the th, i believe it was this year. mr. liebeler. and you say you mounted perhaps as many as scopes in the weeks preceding that day? mr. ryder. very possibly. mr. liebeler. let's go back to the last weeks in october. did you have a similar number of scopes to mount during that time? mr. ryder. not quite that many. lot of these guys like to get their scopes mounted just before they leave. for instance, buying these license plates and getting your car inspected works the same way. they wait until the last minute before they really get ready to go. mr. liebeler. do you have any recollection of about how many scopes you might have mounted during the last weeks in october? mr. ryder. no, sir; i sure wouldn't say specific to remember, sure wouldn't be sure about the number. mr. liebeler. it would not have been as many as you did the first weeks in november but would it have been more than ? mr. ryder. oh, yeah; i'm quite sure. i say roughly scopes. of course, a lot of these people that buy their scopes wholesale or buy a cheap scope that we don't handle, we handle the better priced and better scopes and they buy these things and mounts and everything somewhere else and have us mount them. mr. liebeler. the thing i am working toward here is trying to fix the date on which this ticket with the name oswald on it--when the work was done. mr. ryder. yes. mr. liebeler. if you mounted, say, scopes or approximately that many during the last weeks of october, isn't it possible that the oswald scope could have been mounted during that period of time and your boss would not have remembered the name oswald as being connected with one of those rifles? mr. ryder. could have, but like i say, he's pretty sharp. he's pretty smart; i mean in keeping up with the business, you know what i mean. in other words, the flow of the work that i had; in other words, he keeps a close watch on it. mr. liebeler. now you stated that the repair tag had a number on it. are these repair tags taken off a book with tags with consecutive numbers on them? mr. ryder. no, sir. mr. liebeler. where do these numbers come from? mr. ryder. we buy repair tags, of course, they have a main base of the tag, just a tag you can tear off and you can tear off--say i have number of the other piece; in other words, have the right tag on the gun. as far as sequence, we don't use any. we have a box and we reach over, get a tag, put a man's name on it. the same tag is used on reels, rods, outboard motors, boats. mr. liebeler. so there is no possible way in which you could fix the date by observing the sequence of the number on the tag? mr. ryder. no. mr. liebeler. could you limit it to a period of weeks? mr. ryder. like i say, it would be from the st to around the th or th of november while the greeners was away. mr. liebeler. you said before you were quite sure you never worked on a---- mr. ryder. the italian gun. mr. liebeler. the italian rifle. do you have any recollection of the kind of rifle that this oswald tag referred to? mr. ryder. no, sir; i don't. that's another place where we did--in other words, i did so many and i was so rushed that i didn't pay a whole lot of attention to what tag was to have such and such a scope put on. that is where actually our fall-down went on the thing. mr. liebeler. there is no indication on the tag as to what kind of rifle it would be? mr. ryder. no, sir. mr. liebeler. are you helped at all by the fact that the tag indicates that three holes were drilled? do you ordinarily drill three holes on all rifles? mr. ryder. we boiled it down to this: that there are two type bases used that have three. the redfield base and the buehler base and then, actually, these could go on any gun that you want. in other words, if a man bought a redfield or buehler base they can be adapted to any gun with three holes. now any imported, we couldn't say definitely if it was imported because the springfield o a requires three holes; the british requires three holes. these are guns they use and that's the only ones we could think of offhand that would require just three holes, so we boiled it down, it was either buehler, redfield base or with the weaver base being on the springfield o a . mr. liebeler. or the british rifle? mr. ryder. yes. mr. liebeler. you say you boiled this down in your conversation with horton from the fbi? mr. ryder. actually, this was amongst ourselves, i and mr. greener. actually, there was a lady from the washington press, of course, i don't know, i forgotten which paper she worked with but she was with the washington press and we discussed this with her quite thoroughly. mr. liebeler. do you remember her name? mr. ryder. i sure don't. she, in turn, called klein's and found out the rifle that was used in the assassination had already been drilled and tapped. in other words, he had bought the scope and rifle from klein's and they were shipped together and all he had to do was attach it to this particular gun. in other words, the one he used in the assassination. of course, they order by serial number. mr. liebeler. you also testified you did not mount any scope on an italian rifle? mr. ryder. right. mr. liebeler. you say, that when you mount a scope you do not charge for the process of boresighting, is that correct? mr. ryder. actually, it's hard to say, really. at that time we were not charging if we drilled and tapped one, we didn't do it. now we do charge extra, $ . bore sighting. mr. liebeler. do you recall if there was an extra $ . for boresighting indicated on the ticket in question? mr. ryder. i don't even remember. mr. liebeler. do you remember discussing that point with agent horton? mr. ryder. yeah; we talked maybe we did charge $ . for the boresighting. as a matter of fact, i did because $ --or was it $ . --i don't even remember that now. mr. liebeler. you don't now remember whether the ticket was for $ . or $ ? mr. ryder. that's right, right now, i don't. it seems like to me it was for $ . for drill, tapping, and bore sighting. i believe it was for $ . . in other words, i didn't charge for boresighting. mr. liebeler. what do you do when you bore sight a rifle? mr. ryder. well, i use a sight-a-line. that's actually three different things but, what it is, it's an optic deal made by this manufacturing company that has a little cross hair in it just like a scope. it lays like such instead of like such [illustrating]. by taking a little sprig that fits different caliber rifles, fits in the rifle, you look through the scope and line the four cross hairs together to the center point of the cross hairs. it doesn't zero a gun by any means. it just gets you--oh, better where you can tell where you're hitting. mr. liebeler. so, you can't really zero a gun any by just boresighting it? mr. ryder. no; actually, it lines your bore and your sight at one point or close to one point where you can get your point from there without wasting ammunition. if i were to anchor a barrel or piece of pipe in a vise and pick out a spot over there on that building [indicating] somewhere; say, draw a circle and i line this with that and aline the sight, i have a scope or open sight either one, over to that point, i go to shoot at it offhand and there's a different way i hold that gun. this breaks it down to a fine deal where you understand the difference between boresighting and zero. if you been in the army, you know the difference. in other words, this method i was just describing say, to the building, is the way we use the bore sight. mr. liebeler. but now you have a little machine that does that? mr. ryder. yes; we have this little optical instrument we use now which makes it simple and faster. mr. liebeler. have you ever worked with any rifles that came from klein's in chicago or mail-order rifles that came with scopes mounted on it? mr. ryder. you can't tell unless a man tells you. in other words, to look at one you can't tell any difference in workmanship. mr. liebeler. as far as how the scope was mounted, you mean? mr. ryder. right. mr. liebeler. do you have any way of knowing whether these scopes are boresighted when mounted by a mail-order house or not? mr. ryder. most likely they are. now, i don't know how they operate, if they do boresight any there or not. i do know for a fact if you boresight or zero a boresight on a redfield base or any base except bausch and lomb, other than those, other than the bausch and lomb, if you take the scope off and put it back on you have to rezero. in other words, if they did boresight it and take it back off and ship it, it's going to be entirely different when the man receives the gun. it might be close enough for a man to shoot one in but won't be near as close. mr. liebeler. you think that a rifle would have to be zeroed in any event after it had been shipped from a mail-order house before it could be used to shoot accurately? mr. ryder. yes; take for example, i have a model winchester . - caliber with a k- weaver scope; nearly every season prior to deer season i will shoot it in and i have found several times it has been off just by riding in the back of the car. taking it in and out of a gun case, things like that will make them off. in other words, they are not built so rigid that a little something here and there can get bumped loose so it would be like i say, he would have to have it zeroed after he received it from the mail-order house, most definitely. mr. liebeler. if i were to tell you that this particular rifle had been carried to new orleans and back in a station wagon and had laid in a garage in irving for months prior to the assassination and had been moved around in the garage, would that lead you to believe it might be out of sight at that time? mr. ryder. yes; it could be very possible. mr. liebeler. do you think it would be probable or do you have any experience to make a judgment like that? mr. ryder. like i say, of course, i take proper good care of the gun i got and i have to readjust it quite often when i shoot it in. of course, then again, too, later on, from one season to the next i might change from the way i held my gun which is another thing to make a lot of difference in the way i shoot but one to be carried that far, unless it was really taken care of can very, very easily be knocked out of alinement or out of adjustment. another thing, too, on just looking at this picture---- mr. liebeler. the picture of the rifle? mr. ryder. the picture of the rifle that mr. horton had; this was a real cheap, common, real flimsy looking--of course, i couldn't tell by just looking at the picture say the type of material it was made of, but to me it looked rather cheap. it would be very easily knocked out of adjustment. mr. liebeler. you have never been shown the actual rifle itself, is that correct? mr. ryder. no, sir; i haven't. i would like to see which mount it is, see whose make it is, but i haven't seen it yet. mr. liebeler. do you remember being interviewed by an agent of the secret service? mr. ryder. they came out and talked to mr. greener rather than myself. well, i talked with them, too; we had a triangular, circular conversation--mr. greener, myself, and the agent. mr. liebeler. do you remember the agent's name? mr. ryder. no, sir. mr. liebeler. would it refresh your recollection if i said his name was elmer w. moore? mr. ryder. doesn't ring a bell. mr. liebeler. do you remember telling the secret service agent that you were certain after viewing photographs of oswald that you had never done any work for him; in fact had never seen him? mr. ryder. not actually in that tone; like i say, like i told all of them that interviewed me, even the reporter, that his features are very common, i say, for the working class in the dallas and fort worth area and he could have been in the shop, sport shop, i might ought to say, and be easily mistaken for another person or another person similar to his features could have been in, but i couldn't say specific if he had been in the shop or not, i mean, that's something i won't draw a conclusion on because like i say his features, face and all is common with the working class here and he could easily be mistaken one way or the other either for him or for another person. mr. liebeler. now, as far as outside of the shop is concerned, you see, i'm troubled to some extent because i have before me a report of the agent from the secret service and a report from the agent of the fbi. one report says you are quite sure you have seen and talked to oswald and the other one says you are quite sure you have not seen him. i am puzzled by those statements. mr. ryder. like i continue to say all the way through on their investigation, both that secret service man and from the fbi that he could have been in the shop; i could have talked to him but to say i had definitely, i couldn't say i have really talked to him. mr. liebeler. could you say you definitely have ever seen him outside of the shop anyplace? mr. ryder. no, sir; i don't believe i have. i mean i couldn't say specific because back again to the common features, so on and so forth, but, actually, we have drawn a conclusion, of course, that is, i and the boys and people concerned at the sport shop there that it was either this oswald with another gun or another oswald with another gun. we know definitely that it was another gun. we know that for sure. mr. liebeler. and you have already carefully considered the possibility of identifying that other gun but you are not able to do it? mr. ryder. right; mr. greener called all the other oswalds listed in the dallas and irving directories. mr. liebeler. he did that? mr. ryder. right, with no avail; in other words, nothing turned up. mr. liebeler. whose handwriting does the name oswald appear to be written in? mr. ryder. it's mine. mr. liebeler. it is your own handwriting? mr. ryder. it is my own handwriting; the whole thing was written up by me. mr. liebeler. when did you first discover this tag? mr. ryder. well, it's kind of funny, actually, how i found the tag. my workbench generally is cluttered up, you know how tools get scattered around and i was--i had been to the evinrude service school---- mr. liebeler. here in dallas? mr. ryder. yeah, at the marriott over here and we were talking about it that evening and, of course, by the time i got back from the service clinic was just about time to close and we left and that saturday afternoon i started cleaning off the workbench and i found the ticket of which i didn't say anything to anybody else there and when mr. horton came out on monday, well, then i told him we had a tag. i didn't want to keep anything back but after he showed me the picture and everything i apparently drew my conclusions of not working on that particular gun anyway. mr. liebeler. how did horton know to come out to the sports shop? mr. ryder. actually, i don't know. he evidently was checking all of the---- mr. liebeler. gunshops? mr. ryder. gunshops and hit us on monday, well, let's see, it was, oh, it was about : or that morning whenever he first came out. mr. liebeler. you are not familiar with this particular kind of rifle, are you? you have not worked on any similar rifles? mr. ryder. well, there's quite a few similar but this particular one is a real oddity. it's an odd job and i have never worked on any. i have seen several. mr. liebeler. have you ever broken one down? mr. ryder. no, sir; never have. as a matter of fact, the only thing i can remember doing is just pulling the bolt back on it and closing it back up. that, to me, is common; i always make sure there's no shells or anything before i look at one. that's the first thing if you hand me a pistol, i kick the cylinder out or spin it through to make sure it's unloaded but this gun is real odd, i mean it's a crude-built gun. mr. liebeler. when a gun is broken down, by that, i am sure you understand that i mean you remove the action and the barrel from the stock. the rifle then is, generally speaking, in two shorter pieces. mr. ryder. right. mr. liebeler. the two pieces you have are shorter than the gun is when put together? mr. ryder. right. mr. liebeler. that is generally true because the stock of the rifle doesn't ordinarily extend to the end of the barrel? mr. ryder. right; now on some military rifles they do extend all the way to the end of the barrel or close to the end, put it that way. mr. liebeler. did you note in connection with the picture that you observed of this rifle they found in the texas school book depository building, did you note whether or not on that rifle the stock went very close to the end of the barrel or didn't come out so far? mr. ryder. as far as i remember it had been cut off, or, in other words, it didn't go to the end of the barrel, as far as i remember, i don't. i am quite sure it didn't. it went a little over half way in the picture that i saw. mr. liebeler. you mentioned that sometimes in the military rifles the stock goes quite far along the barrel? mr. ryder. right. mr. liebeler. is that not a common type of construction in a domestic rifle or nonmilitary rifle? mr. ryder. right; or nonmilitary or what we call a sporter rifle your stock goes half way to the end of the barrel leaving the end of the barrel to wiggle as it may. a military rifle, m- , garand, o a , , they all are of wood and completely encased around the barrel. in other words, you had a piece run all the way on the bottom of it; piece that filled in on the top side. lot of people use military rifles or use sporter rifles that some cut the stock off at a slight angle, say, a little above half way of the barrel. others go ahead and spend and buy the sporter-type stock they can fit their gun to, but as far as i remember, this stock on the picture didn't go all the way to the end of the barrel. mr. liebeler. unless you can think of anything else that you want to add at this point i just tell you for the record that my present inclination is to close the deposition at this point. i may wish to question you again and possibly bring the rifle down here so you can look at it. unless you can think of anything else you want to add at this time that you think might be helpful, we will terminate. can you think of anything else? mr. ryder. no; i can't think of anything right now. mr. liebeler. i want to ask one or two more questions. you mentioned you were interviewed by the dallas police force about this. do you remember the name of the man or men who talked to you on the dallas police force? mr. ryder. no, sir; i don't. actually, i say dallas police department, it was the sheriff's department rather than the dallas police department, really. of course, i connect the two together but they're two separate organizations; i know that. mr. liebeler. in view of my former statement, i would like to thank you at this time. if we decide to continue with this, we will advise you in the future. testimony of dial duwayne ryder resumed the testimony of dial duwayne ryder was taken at : p.m., on april , , at the irving sports shop, east irving boulevard, irving, tex., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. liebeler. this is the continued deposition of dial duwayne ryder. the witness having been previously sworn, we will continue with the examination. first of all, mr. ryder, i want to show you a picture that has been marked exhibit no. , on mr. greener's deposition. i ask you if that is a picture of the repair tag that you found here in the shop? mr. ryder. yes; that is the one right there. mr. liebeler. it has the name oswald on it and the words drill and tap $ . ; bore sight, $ . ; total $ . mr. ryder. that is the one we was thinking about the other day. did it have the $ tag or the $ . tag, because we sometimes charge for the boresight and sometimes don't, depending on the type work we do or what we actually do on the thing. mr. liebeler. do you remember the exact details under which you found the tag in the shop? mr. ryder. well, we talked about this thing on saturday morning and like i said before, like you saw the workbench up there today, that it is cluttered up, and on saturday evening i was cleaning it off and found the tag laying back on the workbench. mr. liebeler. the saturday following the assassination? mr. ryder. yes. mr. liebeler. you found the tag there yourself? mr. ryder. yes. mr. liebeler. had the fbi been out here prior to that time? mr. ryder. no. mr. liebeler. they had not? mr. ryder. no, sir. mr. liebeler. when did the fbi first come out? mr. ryder. on monday. mr. liebeler. on monday? mr. ryder. yes; that was on monday, of the funeral of the late president. mr. liebeler. that would have been november , , when the fbi came out on monday and you gave them the tag or showed them this tag; is that right? mr. ryder. he told us to hold onto it, and then they later came by and got the tag. mr. liebeler. did you ever talk to the newspaper reporter about this? mr. ryder. there were several out here after the fbi had been out, and we told them the same thing that we told the fbi. mr. liebeler. but you didn't talk to any newspaper reporter before the fbi came out here? mr. ryder. no. mr. liebeler. you are quite sure about that? mr. ryder. i am positive about that. mr. liebeler. it was your impression at the time the fbi came that they were making a routine check of all guns? mr. ryder. that is my opinion. that is the idea i had. mr. liebeler. you don't know of any special reason why they came to this particular gun shop? mr. ryder. no; he didn't give any specific reason. he was just checking us out. like i say, probably just routine like he checked all others. mr. liebeler. now i show you two pictures that have been marked exhibits nos. and on mr. greener's deposition. they are pictures of a rifle, and i ask you if you have ever seen a rifle like that or ever worked on one here in your shop? mr. ryder. i have seen them but never have worked on one of them. mr. liebeler. had you seen them before the assassination? mr. ryder. this is what i was talking about the other day. this is not as plain a picture as mr. horton had. evidently that is a reprint, but there are two screws, one here and one here, where on the tag i have charged for three holes. mr. liebeler. you are indicating the screws on exhibit no. , that hold the scope mount to the rifle; is that correct? mr. ryder. mr. horton, the fbi man, on the rifle he had it was real plain and you could see these two screws, and this was a hole, but there wasn't any screws. there was just two screws in the mount. mr. liebeler. the mount had three holes but only two screws? mr. ryder. that is apparently in the picture you have here, and this is what i was referring to as a cheap mount. this looked to me like even in this picture it was real thin gage metal. i can show you something like that, that we use on a . scope, and that is all we use. mr. liebeler. but in your opinion it is too light a mount? mr. ryder. yes; it is too easy to get jarred off on a high-powered rifle. mr. liebeler. that would throw the accuracy of the rifle off, wouldn't it? mr. ryder. yes. mr. liebeler. that is all i have, mr. ryder. i just wanted you to look at the pictures, and i thank you very much. mr. ryder. i don't know which one it was, but it looked--it looks like a copy of the one the fbi man had, except it's been copied over and over. this is not as plain as the one he had. mr. liebeler. let me ask you if the fbi or anybody that ever talked to you ever showed you any pictures of a man and asked you if you could identify that man as oswald? mr. ryder. he showed me a picture of oswald, but like i told him, i couldn't say definitely if i knew him or not. mr. liebeler. let me show you some other pictures that we have. the first five pictures have previously been marked commission exhibits nos. and through , and i will ask you if you can recognize the man or men described in these pictures. have you ever seen them anywhere, as far as you can recall? and second, if you have ever seen him in the shop? mr. ryder. no; they don't look like--too familiar to me. mr. liebeler. do they appear to be pictures of the same man to you, or a different man? mr. ryder. they look actually to me like they are different men. these two look real close. mr. liebeler. referring to commission exhibits nos. and ? mr. ryder. yes; they look real similar in their hairline. actually, i guess this looks about the same, too. mr. liebeler. referring to commission exhibit no. . but the other two pictures look a little different? mr. ryder. yes. mr. liebeler. the other two being commission exhibits nos. and ? now i show you a picture that has been marked previously as pizzo exhibit no. -a. i ask you to look at all the individuals in that picture and tell me if you recognize any of them. there are two individuals that have been marked by a green mark, but don't confine your attention to them. mr. ryder. this one i know is oswald, as the pictures in the paper, but as far as seeing the guy personally, i don't think i ever have. i could have, but being in business here, it would be hard to say. any of the others, i don't believe i have seen any of the others, but this one, like i say, just by picture---- mr. liebeler. you are referring to the man that has been marked with an "x"? mr. ryder. right. mr. liebeler. or with two lines as opposed to one straight line on pizzo exhibit no. -a. i now will show you pizzo exhibit no. -b, and ask you if you recognize anybody in that picture? there is a man marked with a green mark in the left-hand corner of the picture. mr. ryder. this would be the only one. like i say, seeing him on television and in the paper, that is as far as i could go. mr. liebeler. the man marked with the green line, is that right? mr. ryder. yes. mr. liebeler. here is another picture which has been marked pizzo exhibit no. -c. do you recognize him? mr. ryder. this is the same picture that the fbi had of oswald, the same picture. mr. liebeler. you don't remember seeing this man in the shop? mr. ryder. like i say, as many people as we have in here, it would be hard to distinguish one from another unless they come in quite frequently and you begin to know them. then you would know what he looks like and kind of put a name with a face. there are several people that come in here that have been coming in for several years, but i can't make this old ticker work up there as to their names. mr. liebeler. so you aren't able to say whether this man was in the shop? mr. ryder. he may have or may not have been. i couldn't say for sure. mr. liebeler. all right, thank you, mr. ryder. we appreciate your cooperation the commission wants to thank you very much for the cooperation that you have given us. mr. ryder. yes. testimony of dial duwayne ryder resumed the testimony of dial duwayne ryder was taken at : p.m., on july , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. liebeler. will you stand and raise your right hand, please. do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. ryder. yes. mr. liebeler. i believe this is the third time that we have met and i have advised you previously of the nature of the commission's work and you are familiar with the kind of problems that we have? mr. ryder. yes. mr. liebeler. and you are aware of your rights to have an attorney if you want to--we have already discussed that previously, as i recall, and you know who i am, and, of course, you are dial ryder and you work at the irving sports shop, and we have had previous testimony concerning the possibility that lee harvey oswald may have had some work done on his rifle in your sports shop. when i talked to you previously, i asked you if i recall correctly about any conversations that you might have had with a newspaper reporter from the dallas times herald; do you recall me asking you about that? mr. ryder. yes; i do. mr. liebeler. and my recollection is that you told me that you had not talked to any newspaper reporters from the dallas times herald in connection with the story that appeared in that newspaper on november , ? mr. ryder. yes. mr. liebeler. and specifically you had said that you had not talked to a newspaper reporter on the morning of november , , although you did say that on that morning, sometime around about : a newspaper reporter did call you from the dallas times herald and told you that he wanted to talk to you about this whole situation and you refused to talk to him? mr. ryder. that's right. mr. liebeler. and you hung up the telephone and as i recall, you testified that you then took the receiver off the hook, making it impossible for any other calls to come into your telephone; is that correct? mr. ryder. that's right. mr. liebeler. and you were interviewed by the fbi again on may , , and you told them that same story; is that correct? mr. ryder. that's right. mr. liebeler. is that in fact correct? mr. ryder. that's right. it sure is. mr. liebeler. i want to advise you of the fact that we have located the newspaper reporter who supposedly talked to you that morning and his name is hunter schmidt, jr., and that he has testified that he came to work at the dallas times herald that morning and had a lead on this story that he had gotten from an anonymous telephone call that some woman made to the fbi and one was made to a television station here in dallas telling them that oswald had had some work done in your sports shop and i think i previously asked you about this and you said you didn't have anything to do with those anonymous telephone calls; is that right? mr. ryder. that's right. mr. liebeler. schmidt says that he started looking for your name which he got from somewhere, apparently in connection with the dallas police department and tracked you down at your home and called you between : and o'clock on the morning of november , , and that apparently your wife answered the telephone as you were still asleep and you came to the telephone and you appeared to be sleepy and that he talked to you for an extended period of time, and that you gave him the information that subsequently appeared in the newspaper article on november , , in the dallas times herald. mr. schmidt was advised when he testified that you had denied giving him this story, although you had admitted that some reporter had called you on the telephone that morning. is the name hunter schmidt familiar to you at all? mr. ryder. no; it's not. mr. liebeler. do you remember whether or not that was the particular newspaper reporter that called you that morning? mr. ryder. i couldn't say definitely for sure--like i said--i told them i had no comment on it and hung the thing up. mr. liebeler. in addition to the fact that mr. schmidt has so testified, i have been advised that one of mr. schmidt's associates was sitting right there in the office at the time schmidt called you and heard the entire conversation between schmidt and yourself and he said that schmidt did talk to you for an extended period of time, or to a person by the name of dial ryder, who gave him this information about the gun work being done at the irving sports shop and he said he heard the whole conversation. mr. schmidt has, during the course of his testimony, volunteered to take a polygraph examination on this whole question as to whether or not he talked to you that morning and as to whether or not you gave him the information about the gun ticket and about the three holes that were drilled in the rifle and all the other information that appeared in that newspaper story. i am not here to say myself who is telling the truth, because i don't know, but it is perfectly obvious that one of you is not telling the truth, either mr. schmidt or you. i don't know what reasons you would have for not telling the truth, and i don't know what reasons mr. schmidt would have for not telling the truth, but i wonder if on reflection and in view of the statements that i have just made to you, if you can ponder this whole question and perhaps refresh your recollection. i don't know whether you talked to this newspaper reporter or not, but in view of the fact that we have this other testimony, i wonder if it would in some way refresh your recollection that in fact you did talk to this man? mr. ryder. no; like i said, the only people i talked to were mr. horton with the fbi and then the dallas police department or the sheriff's department--is the only ones i talked to about this, until, like i told you--the cbs reporters came out and we made the television deal after radios and everything got the thing and then we thought we had it straightened out with them, but as far as that morning, i didn't talk to anybody over the phone about it except i said i had no comment and hung up the receiver and then took the receiver back off of the hook and went on about my business of sleeping on this sunday morning. mr. liebeler. do you know a woman by the name of edith whitworth? mr. ryder. let's see--there was a lady from the washington press. mr. liebeler. no; this is a woman who used to run a furniture shop in irving, which is down on irving boulevard. mr. ryder. no; i don't know her. mr. liebeler. do you know whether mr. greener knows her? mr. ryder. now, he might--i don't know. mr. liebeler. do you know any woman by the name of mrs. gertrude hunter who also lives in irving and is a friend of mrs. whitworth's? mr. ryder. no, sir; i don't know them. mr. liebeler. are you aware of the fact that just down irving boulevard from the irving sports shop, a block and a half or so west, there used to be another gunshop where a man carried guns? mr. ryder. well, there was a little place down there where he handled guns--i don't know whether--if he was able to work on them or not, but it was about two blocks down the street or a block and a half or something like that. mr. liebeler. toward the west? mr. ryder. yes. mr. liebeler. and do you know that there used to be a used furniture shop that was there? mr. ryder. yes; it's still there. mr. liebeler. but you didn't know the people that ran it? mr. ryder. no; i didn't. mr. liebeler. now, mr. schmidt is sitting out here in the front office and i'm going to ask him to come in and have you two gentlemen discuss this problem, see if there is some way we can resolve this story on this telephone conversation. (at this point mr. hunter schmidt, jr., entered the room.) mr. liebeler. i have brought mr. hunter schmidt, jr., into the room and mr. schmidt has previously been sworn as a witness and testified yesterday on this question. i introduce you to mr. dial ryder. mr. schmidt. mr. ryder, how do you do? mr. liebeler. as i have indicated to mr. ryder, mr. schmidt testified yesterday that on the morning of november , , you came to work in your office at the dallas times herald and received information of some sort that possibly lee oswald had had some work done on a rifle, on his rifle or a rifle, in some sports shops or gunshop in the outlying areas of dallas. would you tell us briefly what happened after that, mr. schmidt? mr. schmidt. after i got the tip, i traced it down and thought it was garland first and i looked it up in the phonebook--the city directory--and the usual sources that we go through--i looked through and this ryder was the only one that i could find, or apparently he was the one that said what i was looking for. mr. liebeler. where did you get ryder's name in the first place; do you know? mr. schmidt. well, it was from a tip around the police station. now, i don't remember. i have been trying to remember where--who specifically it came from, but it was one of the many we were getting at that time. as i said before, we had several different leads on different stories and that they were coming in pretty thick, so i don't really remember where i got the ryder name, but it came from around the police station, one of our boys covering this angle of the assassination, called in from down there that a ryder was supposed to have mounted a scope on a rifle for a customer named oswald, so i started checking from there, and like i said yesterday, i thought at first it was garland and i had to do it by a process of elimination. mr. liebeler. and you went through the city directory and you finally found it in the phone book? mr. schmidt. i believe i used the phonebooks and i found this ryder and i called him up. mr. liebeler. about what time in the morning? mr. schmidt. oh, : or --something like that. i come in at o'clock and it may be a little after , but i estimate it was between : or , but it was early, and i called the ryder and there was a woman answered the phone. then, apparently the ryder i talked to, and i guess it's this same dial ryder, i'm not sure, but the ryder i talked to apparently had to get out of bed, there was a little interval, and come to the phone, and the person i talked to sounded sleepy. he gave me the information i got and it was very matter of fact and i believe you used the term "cordial" yesterday. i guess--that would be it--he was not antagonistic, but he was very--just very conversational in the question and answer session and explanation, and he said he had a ticket with the name oswald on it and that it could have been the oswald. he said he didn't remember for sure what the face looked like with the oswald ticket, but he understands--he said he understood that this oswald had a very common face for this area and i asked about buying ammunition or how many time he came in. i think he was sort of vague on that--he wasn't sure how many times he had been in, and besides talking about the sighting the rifle and the boring of the holes, that was in essence what it was, what we had in the paper. i believe i explained to you about the boresighting bit. mr. liebeler. there was some conversation between you about that? mr. schmidt. he mentioned the boresighting and i don't think i understood it fully and that might have been a little incorrect in the paper, but that was the only thing that this technicality bit about the boresighting. mr. liebeler. now, mr. ryder, you have been sitting here watching mr. schmidt and listening to his voice; does his voice seem at all familiar to you? mr. ryder. sure doesn't--not to me at all. mr. liebeler. would you tell us what your recollection is of what happened on that morning? mr. ryder. well, like i have said before, and it is in my testimony--the fbi has the same thing--the phone rang. it was roughly : , i would say it was closer to : than it was , and the reporter asked me had i mounted the scope on the oswald gun and i told him i had no comment and i hung up, i mean, i took the receiver off the hook and that's all i done and all i said here. mr. liebeler. now, mr. schmidt, after listening to mr. ryder's voice, can you identify it as the voice you say you spoke to on the telephone that day, or are you unable to do it? mr. schmidt. no; i couldn't honestly identify him by voice now. it was or months ago and i only talked to ryder once. mr. liebeler. mr. ryder, do you know of any other ryders out there in the area who would have any knowledge of this gun ticket at the irving sports shop? mr. ryder. not that i know of--not that i know of. mr. liebeler. now, as i indicated to you, mr. schmidt has volunteered and requested a polygraph examination to try to clear this matter up, and i wonder if you have any suggestion that you think of as to how it might be done? mr. ryder. well, i'll take the thing if you want me to take it. mr. liebeler. well, i don't want to ask you to do it, but if you want to request it and assist the commission in clearing this matter up, i think we could make arrangements to have a polygraph examination administered to both of you. mr. ryder. well, i'm not one to volunteer for anything. mr. schmidt. i am perfectly willing to, because i stand beside that story. i don't know this man personally, if this is the ryder of the gun shop, the irving sports shop, and the same one that identified himself that morning--that was the information i got from him and i don't have any reason to lie about it, you know, i get the same amount of pay, i don't get any extra money for that story and i didn't even get a byline for the story. i knew that it would be just part of a story. so, i feel like i am a professional with my business and i just don't like to be doubted. mr. liebeler. do you remember whether or not there was anybody else in your office at the time you heard this conversation that you had with ryder? mr. schmidt. there were several men around there but i'm not sure whether they recall this conversation or not or whether they were even paying any attention. there are a couple of men that sit right to my left and a couple to my right. mr. liebeler. well, the commission has followed the practice of due regard for the civil rights of the people who have been involved in this thing and it is not requesting anybody to take a polygraph examination, and it is not prepared to make an exception in this case for you, mr. ryder. if you want to volunteer to do so, the commission will take it under advisement and decide what it wants to do, but it is not going to request you to do so, and i cannot even put myself in the position of even asking you to or urging you to or suggesting that you do so. that's entirely up to you. mr. ryder. well, like i said, i will take the thing if it boils down to that. like i say, and i have contended all along, that i did not talk to anybody on thanksgiving day, that morning. i didn't talk to anybody. that was my day off. mr. liebeler. did you have any conversations with any other newspaper reporters--that afternoon, but of course, that day--which you said you wanted to enjoy as your day off, but you did go over to the shop that afternoon and meet the television people, did you not? mr. ryder. right, that's after the story broke over the radio. mr. liebeler. and in the newspaper? mr. ryder. yes; and in the newspaper, and then we got with the cbs boys and made the little film that they wanted. mr. liebeler. do you remember talking to any newspaper reporters at any time the next day or the day after that about this whole story? mr. ryder. well, they were all over the place the next day--on friday--friday and saturday. mr. liebeler. but you still take the position that you had nothing to do with the original story that came out and you never talked to the newspaper reporters prior to the time the story came out in the dallas times herald? mr. ryder. right. mr. liebeler. do you have any idea where they got the story? mr. ryder. i still don't know--i kind of felt like where they got it was over the radio--originally--i don't know. the cbs boys said that they got it off of the associated press wires, is how they got it, or over the ap. mr. liebeler. now, it is not the ordinary practice, of course, for the commission to advise witnesses what kind of an investigation it has made in connection with this thing, at least, not until the report comes out, but i think you ought to know that as a result of the existence of this gun ticket and the story that you told the fbi and the commission, the fbi has attempted to find every oswald in the whole dallas and fort worth area and the surrounding area and it has found many of them and it has questioned all of them, some of whom have moved out of dallas and fort worth, as to whether or not they ever had any work done in that gunshop, and you should know that none of them ever did, and you should also know, and i think you probably do by now, that lee oswald could not have had any scope mounted on the rifle that he used to assassinate the president in your shop, and in fact, i don't think you claim you did mount that particular scope? mr. ryder. that's right. we have claimed that it wasn't that one. on the monday after, well, it was the monday of the funeral of president kennedy, that mr. horton came out and i thought at that time i had it cleared with him that i hadn't mounted the scope on the gun he used to assassinate the president. mr. liebeler. that you had not? mr. ryder. that we had not. mr. liebeler. and you weren't able to remember lee harvey oswald's face as being the face of the man who had previously been in that shop; isn't that right? mr. ryder. that's right. mr. liebeler. and you couldn't associate any specific gun or any specific man with that particular work ticket; isn't that right? mr. ryder. right. mr. liebeler. do you have any possible suggestions as to where that work ticket could have come from if it appears, and it certainly does appear, that no other oswald came in there and there is no evidence of any sort to indicate that lee harvey oswald ever had any other rifle than the one he used to assassinate the president, and he never brought that one in the sports shop? mr. ryder. all i know is that we had the ticket laying on the workbench back there and i had written it up and completed the work on it and the gun had been picked up. now, as to whether it was lee oswald, i couldn't positively identify him or if there was another one out there right now i could not identify anybody if they said they did bring it in. mr. liebeler. and to the best of your recollection, you wrote that gun ticket sometime in the early part of november; is that right? mr. ryder. yes. mr. liebeler. and you are certain that you wrote it up before november ? mr. ryder. right. mr. liebeler. but you are not able to associate that particular ticket with any particular gun in your own mind? mr. ryder. that's right. mr. liebeler. i also recall that when i asked you questions about this before, you indicated that possibly we could fix the date on which this ticket had been written because you had written it with a pencil and you said you remembered you had gone to dallas on that particular day, and that you used a pencil to get some materials from a wholesale shop. of course, the fbi, as you now know, has gone and has found out every day that you ever went to dallas to get gun materials and asked you if you could identify the time and the date by reviewing this list of materials that you got from the wholesale house in dallas and you weren't able to associate it with any particular day you used a pencil. mr. ryder. right; he had or days there that he showed me some copies--actually, he gave me some dates that i came to town and signed and there were or days there in that period that i had signed with a pencil, and it could have been that some of those days i had a pencil laying handy and i just picked it up rather than taking my pen out of my shirt. mr. liebeler. would you be surprised if the commission concluded, after this investigation that the fbi conducted and the questioning that we have done, that there was never any man in there by the name of oswald with any gun at all? mr. ryder. yeah--like i said--all i've got is that ticket with his name on it and the work being done. mr. liebeler. well, at this point i think we might as well conclude the deposition. the commission will take under advisement mr. schmidt's request to have a polygraph examination administered to him, and i am advised by one of the u.s. attorneys here that one of the other reporters over at the newspaper does remember the conversation and we will take his deposition tomorrow. if you want to have a polygraph examination administered to you, after reflecting on this, or if you have anything further to say about the whole thing, contact miss stroud here at the u.s. attorneys' office, if you want to. mr. ryder. okay. is that all? mr. liebeler. yes; that's all. thanks a lot, mr. ryder. testimony of hunter schmidt, jr. the testimony of hunter schmidt, jr., was taken at : p.m., on july , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. liebeler. would you rise and raise your right hand? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. schmidt. i do. mr. liebeler. will you please sit down. my name is wesley j. liebeler. i am an attorney on the staff of the president's commission investigating the assassination of president kennedy. i have been authorized to take your testimony by the commission pursuant to authority granted to it by executive order , dated november , , and the joint resolution of congress no. . under the commission's rules of procedure, you are entitled to have an attorney present should you wish to have one. and you are entitled to days' notice of the hearing, should you wish to insist upon it. and you are entitled to all privileges in terms of not answering questions that you would have in any other proceeding. i assume that you are prepared to proceed at this point without an attorney, since you don't have one here? mr. schmidt. i don't think that it would be necessary. mr. liebeler. would you state your full name for the record? mr. schmidt. hunter schmidt, jr. mr. liebeler. what is your address? mr. schmidt. osceola trail, carrollton, tex. mr. liebeler. when were you born? mr. schmidt. september , . mr. liebeler. give us your educational background. mr. schmidt. tyler high school, tyler junior college; i have a b.a. from lamar tech, and i am working on my masters at smu. mr. liebeler. in what? in journalism? mr. schmidt. no; in government. two courses and a thesis away. mr. liebeler. i understand that you are presently employed by the dallas times herald, is that correct? mr. schmidt. that's right. mr. liebeler. and you work for them in the capacity of? mr. schmidt. county editor. mr. liebeler. county editor. what do you do as county editor? mr. schmidt. i cover, or well you might say my beat is everything in dallas county outside of the city of dallas, and parts of eastern tarrant county. that is roughly some surrounding towns, and i take care of the general news coverage in that area. mr. liebeler. at the request of the president's commission, the federal bureau of investigation conducted certain investigations into the facts surrounding a story that appeared in the november , , edition of the dallas times herald. mr. schmidt. thanksgiving day; that's right. mr. liebeler. the story related to the possibility that lee harvey oswald had had a telescopic sight mounted on a rifle at a sports shop in irving, tex. mr. schmidt. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. it is my understanding from reviewing the fbi report, that you were the reporter that wrote that story? mr. schmidt. i gathered facts for the story and gave the facts to the rewrite man who wrote the actual story, but they were from the facts that i gathered. we were checking out several, running down all clues and all possible reports at that time. anything that might be a lead to the story, we checked out. we checked out many many things of that nature, and that was just one of the tips that i checked out. mr. liebeler. where did you first get information that oswald had had a scope mounted on his rifle at this irving sport shop? mr. schmidt. we heard of it, i think it was around the police station somewhere. i don't remember where that exact tip came from. we heard that a gunsight had been mounted by a man named ryder, and they thought at first it was garland. mr. liebeler. you mean garland, tex.? mr. schmidt. garland, tex.; that's right. since that was my beat, well, they gave me the tip to check it and i checked it in garland and found out that there wasn't any ryder listed in the city directory and so forth, so i did it by process of elimination and checked several towns, and i found, well, i came to rest on irving, because i found the ryder there listed as the sports shop man, and i just took it that that was the gunsmith. mr. liebeler. do you recall whether ryder, when you checked the city directory, that ryder was listed as being associated with a gunshop, or did you just find the name ryder and call him? mr. schmidt. i don't remember exactly what i found in the city directory then. it was a process of elimination, and apparently that looked like the only one in irving, so i checked that. mr. liebeler. now, did there come a time when you called mr. ryder on the telephone? mr. schmidt. yes; this was thanksgiving morning. in fact, that is the same morning i got the tip. after the process of elimination, i called ryder and it was early that morning. i called out there, and a woman answered the phone, and he apparently had gotten out of bed, from the time it took. he sounded sleepy on the phone and so forth. so i talked to him then on the phone and asked him about the information i got for the story. mr. liebeler. how long did you talk to him on the phone about that? mr. schmidt. oh, i am just guessing. i would estimate minutes or roughly thereabouts. mr. liebeler. what did he tell you? mr. schmidt. he told me--i asked if he had a customer--now this is a tip we got, that this ryder mounted a scope for a customer, and the customer's name on the ticket with the gun was oswald. and he confirmed on the phone that morning. and the reason i took it as the truth was because i didn't think a fellow would get out of bed early and make up a story half asleep and fabricate a story that early in the morning, and get out of bed on a holiday. he told me that he had a ticket with the name oswald on it, that it was a foreign-made rifle, that he did put the scope, bored the holes and sighted it in. i asked him if he bought any ammunition, and he said no; he didn't. i think he said he didn't remember him buying any ammunition. he then gave me the prices for the mounting of the scope, $ . . i think he said he bored three at $ . a sight, and $ . for the boresighting--i mean for the hole drilling. and $ . for the sighting in of the rifle. and let's see, after he gave me the prices and everything, i just took it as pretty authoritative, because i didn't know that much about rifles. mr. liebeler. now, you say that ryder told you that he believed that the rifle was a foreign make; is that right? mr. schmidt. yes; i asked him what kind it was. he said he didn't remember for sure, but he said he believed it was a foreign-made rifle. mr. liebeler. did ryder say anything about the fact that he was sleepy and had not slept well the night before? mr. schmidt. no, i don't believe he mentioned that. mr. liebeler. you have no recollection of that? did ryder tell you what boresighting was, or did you know about that? mr. schmidt. no; i might have gotten that mixed up in the story. some of the people who know more about rifles than i do said that wasn't exactly correct. the boresighting was explained in the story, but i did the best i could with the information i had there. mr. liebeler. did you have any conversation with ryder about the significance of the term boresighting? mr. schmidt. not that i remember. this boresighting thing came up--there is a fellow down there that knows something about rifles, and i mentioned boresighting, and then there was a conversation with the rewrite man that took the facts i had and added to the story. the top of the story is the story i got from ryder, and the other part of the story were some other tips that had been run down and other parts of the story we pieced together about the general investigation and so forth. mr. liebeler. what was ryder's attitude when he talked to you on the phone that morning? mr. schmidt. well, it was just a man giving information, as far as i was concerned. he wasn't antagonistic or anything. it was just a matter of facts, i would say. mr. liebeler. do you remember telling the fbi about this? mr. schmidt. yes. mr. liebeler. petrocas from oklahoma; an fbi agent? mr. schmidt. i am not sure. mr. liebeler. do you remember telling him that ryder was cordial and invited you to get in touch with him again? mr. schmidt. yes; he did. i think he said get in touch with him again if i wanted to, i am not too sure, but it was that type conversation. he wasn't antagonistic. as a matter of fact, it was like you would get a story from anybody. nothing apparently controversial about it. mr. liebeler. the fbi report that i have also indicates that the agent says that you told him that ryder did explain to you in detail the significance of the term "boresighting." do you recall telling the agent that? mr. schmidt. i don't remember for sure. that was back, i guess, in may. i don't remember any detail about the boresighting, but i remember him mentioning boresighting. mr. liebeler. this fbi report indicates that on the evening of november , , which was the same day that you had talked to ryder, you saw a taped television interview? mr. schmidt. a denial. he denied the story that he had given me that morning. but the thing that, immediately after i saw that, i called one of the fellows on the paper. i think it was charlie dameron or ken smart or one of my immediate superiors, and told him i thought the story had something behind it because they didn't mention the ticket, they didn't mention about the name oswald on it, in the denial, and they didn't mention the cost of doing this. mr. liebeler. it did not? mr. schmidt. it did not, as best i remember, mention the cost of doing that, and didn't mention the ticket. it just said he denied the report that he put the sight on the rifle. mr. liebeler. now, according to this report that i have, and it says, "schmidt advised that while at his address the evening of november , , he observed a taped television interview on a o'clock news of cbs television, in which ryder denied furnishing any of the information to a dallas times herald reporter as set forth in the article which had appeared in the newspaper that day." mr. schmidt. right. about that o'clock, i was guessing that that was the o'clock news. i did see a television denial of that, and i am just guessing that it was the o'clock news. it was cbs, because i know i remember it was. it had to be cbs because i believe, and i am not sure about that o'clock, because the best i can remember, it was walter cronkite reading the denial, and if it was walter cronkite, it couldn't have been the o'clock news, because i don't think he was on then. in any event, i did see the television denial of it, and i am pretty sure it was cbs. mr. liebeler. and ryder actually appeared on the television taped program, at that time; did he? mr. schmidt. i am trying to remember that. i just remember the denial clearly on television. i wouldn't swear to ryder being on the television tape. mr. liebeler. do you remember for sure that ryder denied furnishing any information to a dallas times herald reporter? mr. schmidt. in that interview he denied having done, having mounted a scope on the rifle, and he denied the story in the times herald, is what he was doing in essence. and he said he just didn't do it, is what he said on that, or what the story on the television said. mr. liebeler. do you remember whether or not he specifically denied having told that story to a dallas times herald reporter? mr. schmidt. no; i don't remember if he specifically said that in essence. i remember the denial being credited to ryder. as best i can recall now, the denial being credited to ryder. he said he denied the story in the times herald, that he did thus and so, that he mounted the scope. now i am trying to remember back from what i saw on that television, because now i understand he has denied to his boss later on. his boss had talked to our people at the herald. he denied to his boss later on, and his boss talked to us and said that he denied to him talking to anybody from the times herald. mr. liebeler. did you ever talk to greener (ryder's boss) about this? mr. schmidt. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. tell us about that. mr. schmidt. on the phone. mr. liebeler. tell us about that. mr. schmidt. he called. he was very cordial. he called in and he said that--this is after he had talked to somebody else, as i understand it. either he called in, or i called him. we got together on the phone, and i told him that i talked to the man thanksgiving morning and got those facts from him. and he said that the guy denied the story, and that was in essence what was said. i told him i didn't know why he denied it or anything, unless he figured that it might not go over very well with the public. mr. liebeler. did greener know about this work that had supposedly been done on oswald's rifle, when you called him? mr. schmidt. i don't remember discussing that, whether he knew about the work or not. but i remember pointing out the fact that in the denial that i heard on television, that the ticket and the cost and all that wasn't mentioned. and as i have said, i didn't know that much about rifles, and i told the man i couldn't make up that much about it. mr. liebeler. do you remember greener telling you that he was completely unaware of any of the information that was set forth in the article that appeared in the paper on november , , until after he had been contacted by a cbs television reporter that afternoon, and that was the first time that he read it? that he, greener, had learned any of the facts about this whole thing? mr. schmidt. i believe he said something to that in essence. mr. liebeler. did you ask greener why ryder had denied talking to you and giving you the information? mr. schmidt. did i ask greener why ryder denied it? mr. liebeler. yes; as i understand, the sequence went something like this. you talked to ryder on thanksgiving morning, and he gave you all the information and you wrote the story that came out in the paper. mr. schmidt. right. mr. liebeler. and that night you saw on television a program on which ryder in general denied ever talking to you, or denied the story that was printed in the paper? mr. schmidt. right. mr. liebeler. and i understand shortly after that time you called greener? mr. schmidt. i believe it was the next day. mr. liebeler. you said to greener, what is going on. did you ask him why ryder denied the story that he had previously given you? that is my question now. mr. schmidt. i could have very well. i do remember talking to greener and telling him that, i am sure, i got the story from ryder that thanksgiving morning, and i told him the reasons i thought that it was a factual story because, as i said before, about getting up early on a holiday, and the ticket with the name oswald on it, and the cost and everything. mr. liebeler. now did greener ever tell you that ryder had told him, greener, that he had never talked to a reporter from the dallas times herald? mr. schmidt. i believe greener said that ryder said that he hadn't talked to anybody, as best i can remember. i think he did. mr. liebeler. have you ever talked to ryder at any other time except on the morning of thanksgiving, november , ? mr. schmidt. no, sir; i wouldn't know him if he walked in this room now. mr. liebeler. have you had any other possible source of information for this story? did you talk to anybody in the dallas police department about it? mr. schmidt. about the mounting; no, sir. mr. liebeler. how about the fbi? mr. schmidt. no, sir; i got all those facts from ryder. mr. liebeler. you got those facts from ryder? mr. schmidt. yes, sir; nowhere else did i get any information. i thought that was getting it from the horse's mouth. if i thought there was anything phony about it, i would have told the city editor about it. mr. liebeler. had you given consideration to the reason for ryder denying having talked to you? he denied talking to you, he denied it to the television reporter, and furthermore, he has denied it to me under oath. mr. schmidt. well, he would have to deny it under oath, but like i say, i wouldn't have any reason to fabricate the story. i didn't get any extra compensation for it. i got paid the same thing if i hadn't gotten the story, if it had been a complete hoax. mr. liebeler. well, i think you got the information for the story somewhere. i don't think there is any question about that. but isn't it a possibility that you might have gotten the information from some other place, a confidential source of information that you would rather not disclose? wouldn't that be a sufficient reason to say you got the story from ryder? mr. schmidt. no, sir; i had no reason to fabricate anything about mr. ryder. i don't know the man. i have nothing against him. i just have a story, and i will stick by that story we had in the paper. but the only thing possible that i would be willing to retract any part would be some details of how you do the boresighting. but i don't know that much about rifles as to why he would deny it, except that he possibly could have thought that wouldn't go over too well with the public, "here i mounted a sight on the gun that killed the president." many people would think--he never told me that this was the gun that lee harvey oswald used on the president. he said a customer with a ticket on it that said oswald, and i believe i asked him what oswald looked like, and i don't think he could put the face with the ticket, if i remember correctly. i believe i asked him that, but i wouldn't have any reason to fabricate anything. and the man i was looking for was the man who mounted the scope. after i got that with these other bits of evidence behind it, or evidence in my mind, probably circumstantial, but to me it seemed like human nature. mr. liebeler. it was enough evidence to justify writing a newspaper article? mr. schmidt. i think so, and we try to be factual. i think we have tried to be very factual and very honest on this thing. at this time you see we were getting things that were hoaxes that was full of holes, and i wouldn't have any reason specifically to inflate this. mr. liebeler. well, you are absolutely firm in your position that on the morning of thanksgiving you did call ryder and you did talk to him and did get from him the basic facts about the gun, ticket, and the boresighting and the drilling of the hole? mr. schmidt. absolutely. like i say about the boresighting. i got the boresighting statement and details that i didn't know about. but i did get the cost. i got the ticket with the name oswald on it, that he mentioned in the story, the statement about the ammunition. he didn't buy any ammunition that he could remember. mr. liebeler. let me say this to you. we are faced with a situation where ryder has denied under oath the statement that you have just affirmed under oath. it is perfectly clear that somebody is not telling us the truth. mr. schmidt. obviously. mr. liebeler. what i would like to do in order to try to determine who is telling the truth about this question is have you come in here tomorrow evening at about : or so when mr. ryder is going to be here again to testify before the commission. after i discuss this with mr. ryder, by myself, for a while, i would like to bring you into the room and i would like to have you and mr. ryder see if you can't iron out this apparent inconsistency in the two stories. mr. schmidt. it is perfectly fine with me. mr. liebeler. then you are willing to do that? mr. schmidt. yes. mr. liebeler. at this point, we will suspend mr. schmidt's deposition until such time as we resume tomorrow in the presence of mr. ryder. and needless to say, of course, you will hold in complete confidence the request that i have made of you now until after we have our meeting with mr. ryder? mr. schmidt. that will be fine with me. mr. liebeler. i would be very unhappy if i found it in the newspaper before ryder gets here. mr. schmidt. is it free knowledge after that, though? mr. liebeler. that is something that is entirely up to you, i suppose. i don't know if the commission would request you not to write a story about it. i would like to talk to washington, and even if we request you not to write a story, that is all we can do. mr. schmidt. well, we have tried all the time to cooperate with people. if there is anything other than that you want me to do, if you have a polygraph test, i will be perfectly willing to submit to it. mr. liebeler. have i mentioned a polygraph test? mr. schmidt. no; but i would be perfectly willing to submit to that. mr. liebeler. that is something that we will take under advisement after we see what happens with regard to mr. ryder tomorrow. mr. schmidt. perfectly fine with me. testimony of charles w. greener the testimony of charles w. greener was taken at : p.m., on april , , at the irving sports shop, east irving boulevard, irving, tex., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. liebeler. i would like to swear you as a witness and she will take this all down. would you raise your right hand. do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. greener. i do. mr. liebeler. i think that mr. sanders' office called you previously and told you that we would be out here? mr. greener. yes. mr. liebeler. i have advised you that i am an attorney on the staff of the president's commission. i want to ask you about some of the background concerning the possibility that lee oswald or some other oswald had a rifle in the shop here and had some work done on it? would you state your name? mr. greener. charles w. greener. mr. liebeler. are you the owner and operator of the irving sports shop located at east irving boulevard in irving? mr. greener. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. is dial d. ryder one of your employees? mr. greener. yes. mr. liebeler. how long have you known ryder? mr. greener. approximately years. mr. liebeler. has he been employed by you here at the shop practically all that time? mr. greener. yes. mr. liebeler. we have a repair tag that has the number on it and the name oswald, indicating some repairs were to be made to a rifle. we will mark this picture as exhibit no. , on your deposition. i show you a picture of this tag and ask you if that is a tag of the type that you use here in this shop? mr. greener. right. mr. liebeler. have you ever seen that tag before? mr. greener. yes. mr. liebeler. do you remember the first time that you ever saw it? mr. greener. approximately a week or less after the assassination was the first time i had seen it. that was on thanksgiving day, i guess, because they called me at home and i was eating and i met some of the news media to go through this thanksgiving. mr. liebeler. had there been anything in the newspaper about this tag, or about oswald having any work done here before you saw the tag? mr. greener. yes; it had come out in the news, and this was walter cronkite was to run a retraction on it, or at least clarify the thing. mr. liebeler. what kind of retraction? mr. greener. well, they tried to clarify the thing to say that we had a tag showing a certain amount of work for an oswald, but as far as relating to that particular gun or that particular man, we had no real knowledge of the thing. mr. liebeler. had the fbi been out there at the shop before this thing came out in the newspaper? mr. greener. no; i don't think so. they came out after all the news stories. mr. liebeler. how did the newspaper get hold of this, do you know? mr. greener. i couldn't tell you that. mr. liebeler. you are pretty clear that it was in the press before the fbi ever talked to you? mr. greener. i am pretty sure it was. mr. liebeler. did you know whether the fbi could have talked to ryder or anybody else at the shop? mr. greener. that i don't know. mr. liebeler. you are the owner of the shop, are you not? mr. greener. right. mr. liebeler. were you here at the shop during the period after the assassination and prior to the time that the fbi came here for the first time? mr. greener. yes. mr. liebeler. if the fbi had come here to talk to anybody about oswald having been here, they would probably have talked to you, isn't that right? mr. greener. it is possible. now i do know that one newsman came in and he wasn't going to consult me in any way, so i don't know whether it would have been the case with the fbi or not. mr. liebeler. when did the newsman come in? mr. greener. that was on a--i believe that was on a monday--following monday, as i remember it. no; wait a minute. no; it wasn't a monday. that holiday, it's got me mixed up. it must have been on a friday after the thanksgiving holiday. mr. liebeler. that was after the story had already been out in the newspaper, is that right? mr. greener. yes. mr. liebeler. this reporter came in and wanted to talk to ryder? mr. greener. right. the paper stated the owner of the irving sports shop, and he apparently figured that was the correct information. of course, all the newspapers, they didn't check out any stories; they just run to their office and sent it in, as you well know. no one checked out anything. anything they could get hold of, they put in print, and some of the information they got a hold, i don't know where it came from. mr. liebeler. do you have any reason to believe that any reporter talked to ryder prior to the time the fbi came to your shop? mr. greener. one told me he did. mr. liebeler. do you remember that reporter's name? mr. greener. no; he was with the times herald. mr. liebeler. dallas times herald? mr. greener. i couldn't swear. mr. liebeler. he told you he talked to ryder? mr. greener. ryder told me he hadn't. mr. liebeler. ryder told you the reporter had not talked to him? mr. greener. had not talked to him. mr. liebeler. did the reporter tell you when he had talked to ryder? mr. greener. he told me that he talked to him earlier in the morning. i don't know when that was. i am inclined to believe, to the best of my knowledge, it was thanksgiving day. now i could be wrong on that. my recollection is that this story first came out--i am thinking it came out on thanksgiving day. mr. liebeler. i have here a clipping from the new york times of november , , which appears to be one of the first times that this story was released in the new york papers at any rate, november , . mr. greener. what was thanksgiving day? mr. liebeler. thanksgiving day was on a thursday, was it not? mr. greener. yes. mr. liebeler. that would have been november , so that the th would have been the day that it came out in the new york papers, and it very likely could have come out in the dallas paper on thanksgiving day. mr. greener. i think it was thanksgiving day when it came out in the paper, because i hadn't heard anything of it, and i remember we were playing dominoes when the paper came, and we quit and read the paper, and then also they had come by to check on this story, and we came up to the shop and went through that for walter cronkite's program. mr. liebeler. the reporter had come out to check out the story? mr. greener. yes. mr. liebeler. let the record show that the newspaper clipping that i previously referred to is from the new york times of november , , and the story is entitled, "gunsmith attached sight for man named oswald," and it is a story written by mr. john herbers, and it has been marked as exhibit no. , on mr. greener's deposition. now do you have a feeling or do you have the thought based on what this reporter from the dallas news told you that the reporter had talked to ryder prior to the time that the fbi ever came here to the shop? mr. greener. you are going to have to go through that again. i am not sure that i was following you all the way. i was thinking a little bit while you were talking. mr. liebeler. i am trying to find out at what time this story first broke, whether the fbi had been here at the shop to ask any questions before the story came out in the newspapers? mr. greener. as i recall, no. none of the law enforcing agencies had been by previous to that. mr. liebeler. your impression is that he came here because they saw the story in the paper? mr. greener. that is my idea. either that, or they were informed by the news reporters. mr. liebeler. now did this reporter from the dallas paper, whose name you don't remember, tell you that ryder had called him? mr. greener. no; he told me that he called him, called ryder. mr. liebeler. did he tell you how he got the idea to call ryder? mr. greener. no; he didn't. mr. liebeler. and you didn't ask him? mr. greener. no. mr. liebeler. did you discuss this question with ryder? mr. greener. yes; i did. and he said he had not talked to a newspaper reporter about it. mr. liebeler. at all? mr. greener. right. mr. liebeler. so you never had any opportunity or occasion to ask ryder whether a reporter or, or whether ryder contacted a reporter, because he simply denied talking to a reporter? mr. greener. no. mr. liebeler. do you remember when you asked ryder about this? mr. greener. must have been on friday, because i was a little bit aggravated at the whole setup. they got me out of bed a time or two at night, and i believe that i had called the times herald to talk to this reporter to see where he was supposed to have been getting his information. i'm sure that after i talked to them that day was when i questioned ryder. so i feel pretty sure it was friday or saturday. mr. liebeler. the th or th of november? mr. greener. yes. mr. liebeler. did ryder ever indicate to you that he had talked to a newspaper reporter about this? mr. greener. no; he did not. mr. liebeler. do you have any recollection at all of the name of this reporter from the dallas newspaper? mr. greener. no; i don't have the slightest idea about talking with reporters until this bunch that was going to run the program on walter cronkite's program had contacted me, and he called me. mr. liebeler. do you remember his name? mr. greener. no; i don't remember any of the boys with the television program at all. they had called me and wanted to come down and take some pictures, and he called me, ryder did. mr. liebeler. the television men had called ryder? mr. greener. that was after the newspaper article had appeared in the newspapers. mr. liebeler. and ryder called you and talked to you about it, whether these men could come down? mr. greener. yes; and i came down and met with them. mr. liebeler. do you remember what ryder told them? mr. greener. to the best of my knowledge, he told them that we had the ticket, but he didn't remember the name, didn't remember the gun, or the person, because actually here is the thing about this tag here. we have tried to keep a little better record. we get busy, you know, and get a little lax, just like you and everybody else does, and if we got two or three waiting, why, at that time we were not going to dally about what the name is or date or address or telephone number or anything. we felt like we didn't have time. mr. liebeler. this was just before the deer season? mr. greener. yes; i guess the deer season opened november in texas, and our workload was pretty heavy, and we were working short handed, too, which would be one reason for no more information on the tag or several other tags. mr. liebeler. can you fix the date? mr. greener. no; no way in the world. in the first place, i wasn't here. i feel sure i wasn't here at the time this went on. i was gone from--i don't remember what day i left. i started hunting in south dakota on november , and we came back somewhere between the th and th. mr. liebeler. what makes you feel that you weren't here at the time this tag was made up? mr. greener. well, in checking around, i feel like possibly that i would have noticed it on the gunrack. i would--i don't know whether i would or not, because i do some of the repair work myself, and a lot of times i go through the guns on the rack to be repaired, and if it is something i can do, i take care of it. if he is busy, then i take care of it. mr. liebeler. ryder, you mean? mr. greener. yes. mr. liebeler. but you have no recollection of this tag? mr. greener. none whatsoever, until, i believe, it was the day on thanksgiving when they came down here. now, i believe--this has been a long time and we are going into phases of this i hadn't thought of in a long time--it seems to me that the fbi got ahold of him and they come down scouring through the place. that was very possible after the newspaper report broke. it could have been before, but it seems to me that that is when the tag appeared. i believe it was an fbi man who was out here checking. mr. liebeler. well, now, if that is true, then the tag would have had to have been found and the fbi man would have had to have been here before the story broke in the newspaper? mr. greener. no; i said it could possibly be after the newspaper story appeared, but i believe when the tag was found lying on the desk somewhere, that the fbi man was here when it was found. mr. liebeler. that is the best recollection that you have? mr. greener. yes; right now. mr. liebeler. who found the tag; do you remember? mr. greener. no; i don't know. if i remember correctly, and i could be wrong, because like i said, you are going into things that hadn't entered my mind since november , along in there, and it seems to me that he had contacted ryder and they had come down here. mr. liebeler. the fbi? mr. greener. yes, and they found the tag on the workbench somewhere. mr. liebeler. your impression now is that the fbi man was here when the tag was found? mr. greener. that is my impression; yes. mr. liebeler. as we discussed briefly off the record before we started, it appears that there are three possibilities concerning this tag. one, in view of the fact that mr. ryder is quite clear in his own mind that he never worked on an italian rifle similar to the one that was found in the texas school book depository, we can conclude either that the oswald on the tag was lee oswald and he brought a different rifle in here, or it was a different oswald who brought another rifle in here, or that the tag is not a genuine tag, and that there never was a man who came in here with any gun at all. can you think of any other possibilities? mr. greener. that about covers the situation, it looks to me like. mr. liebeler. do you have any opinion as to what the real situation is? mr. greener. nothing more than i have confidence in the boy, or i wouldn't have him working for me. mr. liebeler. you don't think he would make this tag up to cause a lot of commotion? mr. greener. i don't think so. he doesn't seem like that type boy. i have lots of confidence in him or i wouldn't have him working for me and handling money. especially times i am going off. he--if he wasn't the right kind of boy, and he pretty well proved he is by dependability and in all the relations that we have together, and i just don't figure that is possible. now i say i don't figure that. of course, there is always possibilities of everything, but i don't feel that way. mr. liebeler. you don't feel ryder would do that? mr. greener. not at all; no. mr. liebeler. when we look at this tag, it appears in the photograph that it is in two parts. there is a top part entitled "repair tag," on which writing appears, reading "oswald, drill and tap, $ . . boresight, $ . ." or a total of $ . and it appears at the lower part of the tag; it is in the form of a claim check; isn't that correct? mr. greener. yes. mr. liebeler. the tag number, as i have indicated, is . would i be correct in assuming that if this tag had been made up when a customer came in and left their rifle, that the part of the tag entitled "claim check" would ordinarily have been torn off and given to the customer? mr. greener. no; you are wrong in assuming that. because i believe out of would not ask for a claim check. in the first place, out of that would lose the claim check before they got back, so if you are going to give them a claim check and stick to the thing, not letting them have the merchandise if they don't have the claim check---- mr. liebeler. you are running into a lot of trouble from a business point of view? mr. greener. yes; when they come back for the merchandise, i ask them what the name is, and if we have a gun to go by the name---- mr. liebeler. do you ordinarily tear off the claim check? mr. greener. no. if you look at the rack, you won't find one on the whole rack that has a claim check that has been torn off. mr. liebeler. there isn't any way you can tell from the number when the check was issued? mr. greener. no, because we got the tags dumped into a box, and we reach in and get a tag and tie it onto the merchandise and fill it out. mr. liebeler. i want to show you some pictures that have previously been marked in another part of these proceedings as commission exhibits nos. , , , , and , and ask you if you recall ever seeing the person or persons depicted in these pictures? mr. greener. no; i don't believe i could identify him as ever having any dealings. now there is a familiarity there, but i couldn't tie it with anything or anybody. mr. liebeler. you couldn't figure out in your mind why you think there is a familiarity to those pictures? mr. greener. no. mr. liebeler. had you ever seen those pictures before? mr. greener. no. mr. liebeler. has the fbi or dallas police department ever shown you pictures and asked you to identify them? mr. greener. no; they haven't shown me pictures of anyone for identification. mr. liebeler. i want to show you another picture which is a photograph that has been marked pizzo exhibit no. -b, a photograph of an individual on a street, and one of them has been indicated by a green mark on the picture, and ask you to examine that picture and tell me if you have ever seen that man before? mr. greener. not that i can recall now. mr. liebeler. i show you another photograph of a street scene which has been marked pizzo exhibit no. -a, and ask you if you recognize any of the people in that photograph? two of them have been marked with a green marker, but don't confine your attention entirely to those two individuals. tell me if you recognize any of the people in that picture? mr. greener. no. mr. liebeler. particularly i call your attention to the man who was standing immediately to the left of the man who is marked with the "x," rather than the line, not immediately, to the left of him, then, but the second man to the left. he is standing there with a tie and he has some papers in his hand. does he look familiar to you at all? mr. greener. no. mr. liebeler. i show you another picture that has been marked pizzo exhibit no. -c, and ask you if you can recall ever having seen that man? mr. greener. i don't recall. mr. liebeler. do you recognize that man in the picture? mr. greener. according to the other pictures in the paper, yes. mr. liebeler. who does it look like to you? mr. greener. it looks like oswald. mr. liebeler. but you don't ever remember having seen him? mr. greener. no; my mental pictures are not hardly as good as it used to be. you take fooling with people day in and day out, without some reason to recognize them, the next time you see them--there is a reason for it, you don't make a mental picture of every person that comes in. if he was ' " and weighed pounds, or gave you some trouble when he comes for his merchandise, then it is likely you would remember, but a guy just comes in and tells you what he wants done, and comes back, and gets his merchandise and doesn't give you any trouble, then you don't remember. usually i never forget a face. now, the first picture you showed me, there was something there, but i couldn't pin it to anything, though. mr. liebeler. i am marking two photographs of a rifle as exhibits nos. and , on the deposition of mr. greener. i have initialed both photographs for the purpose of identification, and i would like to have you initial them, too, so we don't get confused as to which picture we are looking at. mr. greener. both of them? mr. liebeler. both of them, please. these are pictures of a rifle. i would like to have you examine it and tell me whether you have ever seen that rifle or one similar to it. mr. greener. no; i don't remember this rifle at all. the first italian rifle that i remember seeing was in worland, wyo. a friend pulled his out, and that is the first italian rifle that i ever recall having seen. mr. liebeler. was that subsequent to the assassination? mr. greener. that was while we were on the trip. mr. liebeler. do you remember ever having seen a rifle like this in the shop here? mr. greener. no; i sure don't. mr. liebeler. i have taken the first two exhibits and marked them exhibits nos. and , on your deposition, and i have initialed both of them and i would like to have you initial them also for the purpose of identification. mr. greener. [initials.] mr. liebeler. have you made any attempt on your own part to try to figure out how this tag came to be in your shop? mr. greener. no; really i haven't inquired any at all on that. i inquired about the reporter deal, but i didn't inquire into anything at all about the tag, because i just assumed it was all open and above board and didn't go into it at all. mr. liebeler. now we have talked previously about the three possibilities that could possibly explain this tag, and you have told us that you don't think that ryder is the kind of guy who would write the tag up after the fact just to cause a commotion. there are two other possibilities. one, was that lee oswald had a different rifle in here. and the other is that there is a different oswald involved. do you have any opinion as to which of those possibilities might be correct? mr. greener. no; it would just be a---- mr. liebeler. wild speculation? mr. greener. very wild. very wild speculation. mr. liebeler. now, you told me before that you had been interviewed several times by the fbi and by the dallas police force. can you think of any questions that they asked you or things they discussed with you that we haven't covered here? mr. greener. no; i can't. it seems that we have gone into it far deeper than they ever did, the dallas police or the fbi. mr. liebeler. can you think of anything else that i should have asked you or that you can add that would help clear this situation up? mr. greener. no; sure can't. mr. liebeler. i have no further questions at this point, mr. greener. if you can't think of anything else that you think is appropriate to add to the record, i think we will terminate the deposition at this point. i want to thank you very much for the time you have given and the cooperation you have shown. i know you have been talked to about this a lot of times. i appreciate the cooperation you have shown the commission, and i thank you very much. mr. greener. we have tried to cooperate with them all the way through. when they continued to come back and ask the same questions and get me out of bed and all at or o'clock at night and get a tag they had looked at three or four times, i began to get a little bit aggravated. mr. ryder and i have always been interested in helping them in any way we could with any information we could give. i don't feel that he is the type boy to do that. of course, that again is people are involved. mr. liebeler. well, you have known the boy a long time and you should be in a position to make that kind of judgment? mr. greener. that is what he is. he has been a mighty fine boy and he is just an extraordinary boy. there is not many like him, and i would trust him with anything that i have to be done, and it just never struck me as him being that kind of boy. mr. liebeler. let me ask you a couple of other questions about rifles and sights. i know you do have a meeting at : . mr. greener. no; it was . mr. liebeler. i thought it was : . i am sorry you are not going to make the meeting. you may have read in the newspapers that oswald purchased this italian rifle, or was supposed to have purchased it from a mail-order house in chicago, with the telescopic sight mounted on the rifle at that time? mr. greener. yes. mr. liebeler. in your opinion, based on your experience in this field, do you think that a rifle that had been purchased from a mail-order house that is shipped through the mails with a scope mounted on it would be in a condition to fire accurately at that point without any further sighting in of the rifle by firing it? mr. greener. the possibility of it being, especially with this frail mount is, i am sure that that mount, according to what little information i have, the possibility of it being real accurate would be pretty small, i think. i think the gun would be--i think even a fellow that was going to go deer hunting would want to take the gun out and shoot it before he went hunting, and i think that holds very true with this case, regardless of whether we mounted the scope or who mounted it or it come mounted. i think the man would fire it before using it. mr. liebeler. you feel that because you don't think that a rifle would be able to be fired accurately unless it had been sighted? mr. greener. the possibility would be small that it would be real accurate; and you talk to most any of the fellows that go hunting, regardless of how expensive a mount they may have on the gun, he is going to take it and fire it before he goes hunting. that holds true in percent of the cases. the only reason not to would be the fact the man was in a real big hurry, he picked it up late in the afternoon and he was going to colorado and was getting there after the season and he was going to shoot and just take his chances. otherwise, he would take the gun out and fire it, out of , and fire it. mr. liebeler. would that be true even if it had been boresighted? mr. greener. yes; because actually the boresighting with the tools that we use, the accuracy of the thing on the windage part of it is very accurate, but as far as distance, different guns will travel a flatter trajectory than other guns will, and there is no calibration on the sighting tools that tell us that you can sight the gun in on target, that it is on or or or . there is no calibration for that. mr. liebeler. no calibration for the boresighting machine? mr. greener. no; you have the crosshairs and you line the two of them up, and that is approximately or yards range, but different guns will vary as to the trajectory, and one might hit the target and one be a little high and another a little low, so that is the reason the man takes his gun and shoots it in as far as the elevation is concerned. he can zero it in to what distance he wants to shoot it at. mr. liebeler. that would have to be done, as you have indicated, even if the rifle had been boresighted? mr. greener. that's right. it would be accurate as far as elevation. the windage part is usually right on target, but the elevation has to do with caliber. as far as your . italian gun is concerned, there is only two types. one is the hand load, and one is the military ammunition. because there is none of the major ammunition manufacturers that builds a sporting load for that gun, so it either has to be a hand load or old italian or military ammunition, and the hand load has to do with what size bullet and the power you get, and it would be more important on that gun to shoot it than it would any other caliber or of an american make that you get your larger manufacturers of ammunition loading for. mr. liebeler. do you have any . ammunition in your shop? mr. greener. not . italian. mr. liebeler. have you ever had? mr. greener. we have a . swedish and . jap, and i believe that is all of these . 's. mr. liebeler. do you do reloading of casings? mr. greener. no. mr. liebeler. the fellow has to do that himself? mr. greener. we sell the components and the loading equipment but we don't do any loading. the only one that i have been able to find out so far that hand loads . italian--i don't think this is a possibility, but ray acker with bell telephone is the only one i know that does any hand loading on . italians. mr. liebeler. he works for bell telephone co.? mr. greener. yes. mr. liebeler. he does this as a part-time occupation? mr. greener. hobby; yes. mr. liebeler. have you talked to him about this case at all? mr. greener. no; i don't guess i have ever called him. how i came to know that he reloads, and i don't know to what extent that he reloads, but i called one of my suppliers as to the availability of . italian, and he gave me his name, so that is the reason but i can't say, but as far as i know, he is the only one that loads . . there may be others that buy their own dies and hand loading, more especially since there are more guns coming out, but that would be, oh, a year and a half ago when i was told that he hand loaded . italians. mr. liebeler. do you need a particular kind of equipment to reload shells? mr. greener. very definitely. mr. liebeler. does the equipment vary with the caliber of the shell? mr. greener. very definitely. the presses usually will accept all the different calibers, and then you have to have your die sets. mr. liebeler. to pour it? mr. greener. you've got to have your shell holders, and your die holder that resizes the brass and inserts the bullet into it, the bullet seating and there is only one caliber that one set of dies will load. if you load a . die, you have to have . dies. if you load . - , you have to have . - , and you can't have any part of the two on the different calibers of ammunition. mr. liebeler. well, thank you again, and we appreciate your cooperation. testimony of gertrude hunter the testimony of gertrude hunter, was taken at : p.m., on july , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. liebeler. mrs. hunter, would you stand please and take the oath. do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mrs. hunter. i do. mr. liebeler. my name is wesley j. liebeler. i am an attorney on the staff of the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy. i have been authorized to take your testimony by the commission pursuant to authority granted to it by executive order no. , dated november , , and joint resolution of congress no. . pursuant to the rules governing the taking of testimony by the commission, you are entitled to have an attorney here if you wish and you are entitled to -days' notice of the hearing. you are not required to answer at this time any questions that you think might be incriminating or involve some other privilege, of course. most of the witnesses don't have an attorney and i see you don't have one here so i assume you want to proceed with the questioning without an attorney being present, is that correct? mrs. hunter. yes. mr. liebeler. would you state your name for the record, please? mrs. hunter. gertrude hunter. mr. liebeler. where do you live, mrs. hunter? mrs. hunter. south hastings, irving, tex. mr. liebeler. how long have you lived in irving? mrs. hunter. i think it was years the th of july--right at--between the th and th--i don't know the exact dates, but it was years. mr. liebeler. are you married, mrs. hunter? mrs. hunter. yes. mr. liebeler. do you have any children? mrs. hunter. four girls. mr. liebeler. how old are they? mrs. hunter. twenty-five, twenty-one, nineteen, and sixteen. mr. liebeler. where were you born? mrs. hunter. jacksonville, tex. mr. liebeler. and you have lived most of your life in texas? mrs. hunter. oh, yes; all my life. mr. liebeler. do you know mrs. edith whitworth? mrs. hunter. yes. mr. liebeler. how long have you known her? mrs. hunter. oh, ever since i came to irving. we are football fans together. mr. liebeler. you came to irving about years ago? mrs. hunter. yes; in july. mr. liebeler. it appears from information that has been provided to us by the fbi that you were in a store operated by mrs. whitworth sometime in --that was formerly operated by mrs. whitworth--at which time people who you now believe to be lee harvey oswald and his wife and children came into the store, is that correct? mrs. hunter. yes. mr. liebeler. would you tell us all the circumstances surrounding that event as best you can remember them? mrs. hunter. well, it was after o'clock and i had went down to talk to her--we were planning on a football trip and we were just sitting there in the store talking, discussing football games, and who was going with who and all, and this man drove up out in front of the store and he got out and he come in and he asked for a gunsmith. mr. liebeler. did you see the car drive up? mrs. hunter. yes. mr. liebeler. did you see who was driving it? mrs. hunter. yes. mr. liebeler. was this man driving it? mrs. hunter. yes. mr. liebeler. how many people were in the car? mrs. hunter. just him and a woman and two children. mr. liebeler. nobody else? mrs. hunter. no one else. mr. liebeler. you are quite sure about that? mrs. hunter. i'm positive, because i was sitting right there--i was sitting this way and the door was right here [indicating], and he drove cater-cornered up. mr. liebeler. and there are glass windows in the front of the store so that you could see right out into the street? mrs. hunter. it is a solid glass there and the door was standing open there. mr. liebeler. do you know about what kind of car it was? mrs. hunter. now, the reason i'm definite about the car--a friend of mine in houston--i was looking for them up and they had a car just like this and i had left a note on my mailbox that i would be at this place--telling them if anyone come i would be at this place and when they drove up i thought that was them and it was a two-tone blue ford. mr. liebeler. what year? mrs. hunter. or --i won't be positive about that, but i would rather say it was about a , i think. mr. liebeler. from which direction did this car drive up? mrs. hunter. well, now, where the car come from--i don't know whether it come up jefferson or down irving boulevard, but i know that it did park into the front of the store where i was sitting, you know, i was talking and i wasn't paying any attention to which way the car came from. the only thing i seen is the driver, when he drove up, and i seen the color of the car, i started to get up because i thought it was my friends from houston, and i looked and seen that it wasn't and he just got out and come in. she didn't get out at that time. he come in and asked for the gunsmith, and to the best of my knowledge, i'm not positive, but it seems to me like, because i was thinking that so many different times that they would come in--whether he had something in his hand or whether he didn't, but i know he went back to the car, and if he did, he put it in the car and when he come back in, she got out and followed him in, but he didn't help her out of the car, he didn't help her with the kids or nothing. she just followed him in. mr. liebeler. is the furniture store that mrs. whitworth operated at that time at the intersection of jefferson street and irving boulevard, is that right? mrs. hunter. yes; you come right in to jefferson and irving boulevard. it used to be the bus station--the continental bus station. mr. liebeler. and they had diagonal parking on that street? is that the way you parked? mrs. hunter. well, you see, it was where the buses used to park clean off the street to get out of the way of the traffic, you see, and you just come up with the nose right up and you would be out of the traffic. mr. liebeler. out of the main street? mrs. hunter. just like this here was the store [indicating], well, it was over this way and he just kind of cater-cornered up this way. mr. liebeler. so, he parked his car diagonally in front of the store and got out and came in? mrs. hunter. yes. mr. liebeler. what happened after he went back out and they came back into the store? mrs. hunter. well, he just come in and she was over when her desk was there and he asked her about some furniture or something and they walked and went back to the back and this woman, she followed them and this young baby and the new baby. mr. liebeler. this man asked mrs. whitworth about some furniture? mrs. hunter. yes. mr. liebeler. and mrs. whitworth and this man walked toward the back of the store and the woman and the children followed them; is that right? mrs. hunter. yes; but she wasn't--now, listen, she didn't pay any attention and this lady had had a new grandbaby. mr. liebeler. you mean mrs. whitworth? mrs. hunter. mrs. whitworth's daughter and she says, "let me trade you a boy for this girl and we will both have a boy and girl." well, they didn't offer to show the baby or nothing and she didn't say anything. we thought it was very funny and we discussed it after she walked out--about her not being interested in showing her new baby, and, of course, i didn't say anything to them, only i did see the little girl and so forth. i didn't put my hands on her or nothing and i didn't pay any attention to what they were saying at the back. all i know is that they were looking at some furniture there, back there. mr. liebeler. did this man oswald say anything about how old the little baby was? mrs. hunter. he said something to her but he was back far enough that what he said to her--i don't know--it was about weeks old or something like that. mr. liebeler. this is mrs. whitworth you are talking about now, or oswald? mrs. hunter. oswald; and she asked oswald something about the babies and i don't remember just what he said to her, but it was something about the baby, you know, and he didn't seem too enthused about that either. mr. liebeler. but you didn't hear oswald say anything to mrs. whitworth about how old the baby was? mrs. hunter. well, i won't be positive--it's been so long--just what he answered her, but just not looking for nothing--i didn't say too much about it, but we just thought it was a coincidence about him not being interested in us seeing the new baby. i think he did tell her when it was born; i'm not positive. mr. liebeler. can you fix for us the date on which this occurred? mrs. hunter. oh, no; not right offhand. all i know is that it was before the football game--i believe the richland hills football game and it was on a wednesday or a thursday--i won't say positive which one. mr. liebeler. how can you say it was on a wednesday or thursday? mrs. hunter. well, i never did go down to the store only on wednesdays or thursdays afternoons---only the days that we had charters, and i went down on friday afternoon. mr. liebeler. on the days you had charters; what do you mean by that? mrs. hunter. charter buses to go. mr. liebeler. to go to the football game? mrs. hunter. yes. mr. liebeler. did you have a charter bus to go to the football game at richland hills? mrs. hunter. no; we went in cars that night and that night i would always wait until my daughter calls at o'clock. when she would call, then i would go down to the store and that's the reason i definitely know it was after o'clock. mr. liebeler. which daughter is this that you are talking about? mrs. hunter. glenda. mr. liebeler. and what is her last name? mrs. hunter. hunter. mr. liebeler. how old is she? mrs. hunter. she's . mr. liebeler. and does she live with you at home? mrs. hunter. yes. mr. liebeler. how does it come that she calls you at o'clock? mrs. hunter. well, her lunch break--she gets her lunch break from until and she would always call me just a minute or two before she goes back to work--just a few seconds--every day before she goes to work. mr. liebeler. does she work here in dallas? mrs. hunter. at commercial title. mr. liebeler. she always calls you at about o'clock; is that right? mrs. hunter. between--she has to be back at her desk at . she will call me anywhere, you know, when it's handy--if she comes up in town to eat, it may be about minutes until . if she takes her lunch and eats there, it may be minutes to , but i would always wait--i would give her a chance to call me before i would leave and i never would leave before o'clock. mr. liebeler. how late in the afternoon could it have been, you think, that these people did come? mrs. hunter. well, i would say between : and : , because i never did stay gone past o'clock. my daughter comes in from school and she didn't have any way to get in the house. i locked the house and she would get to the house before and i would try to be back at the house before and there was just one or two evenings that i didn't get to the house before she come in. mr. liebeler. you say you would always try to get back home by o'clock? mrs. hunter. yes; so i could unlock the door. mr. liebeler. did you hear the conversation between mrs. whitworth and this man who came in about the gun? mrs. hunter. he just asked for the gunsmith and she told him the gunsmith had moved down the street and she went out in front and pointed down to where to go and told him where to go and showed him where it was at. i didn't go out the door. i was just sitting in a platform rocker and he thanked her and he just went back to the car. mr. liebeler. and after he went back to the car, then, they all came back again and went in the store? mrs. hunter. he came back in and then her and the children got out and followed him in. mr. liebeler. do you know whether mrs. whitworth told him where the gunshop that used to be in the furniture store had moved or did she direct him to another gunshop? mrs. hunter. no; she told him that this man had gone and she thought he was down in those sport shops or some kind of a shop down the street, or that there was one down there. mr. liebeler. are you familiar with where it is? mrs. hunter. she was over at the front and i was back here, but i heard the conversation, you know, what he was asking for and all that. mr. liebeler. do you remember whether he had anything in his hands when he came in? mrs. hunter. it seems to me like--i'm not positive--that he had something and it come to me that it was wrapped in brown paper. now, i'm not positive about that, but it was just something like you handle--he didn't have it up in his arms--he just had it in his hands. mr. liebeler. do you have any idea how long the package was, or do you remember that clearly? mrs. hunter. no; i just remember there was something in his hands. mr. liebeler. do you know where the irving sport shop is located? mrs. hunter. no; i sure don't--i have never been there. mr. liebeler. do you know mr. woodrow greener? mrs. hunter. no. mr. liebeler. do you know dial ryder? mrs. hunter. no; i don't know too many people, i guess, you would call me selfish, but i don't know too many people in irving--period. there are just a very few that i know--just the grocery store where we trade and the man that runs the bus station and mrs. whitworth and one or two i met going to the football games--i have been there years. mr. liebeler. was there anybody else in the store during the time these people were there? mrs. hunter. no; just me and her. mr. liebeler. did mrs. oswald say anything while she was in the store? mrs. hunter. i never did hear her open her mouth. mr. liebeler. how did the little girl, the -year-old, behave? was she well behaved? mrs. hunter. yes; she just went along holding her her mother's dresstail. he didn't help her with either one of the babies and she was walking along. you know, she is kind of shy and it was in a strange place and she was kind of holding to her mother's coattail when they were up there where i was at--where the table went around and i don't know--i just--they was kind of dressed bummy or something--i don't know what you would call it. she was kind of clean. he looked pretty nice. i just thought--why was she dressed like that--you know how you will notice that. mr. liebeler. did you hear the little girl say anything at all to her mother or her father? mrs. hunter. no; i didn't hear her say anything. now, when they went down the aisle, nearly to where mrs. whitworth and this man was, she looked down at her and said something, but i didn't understand what she said. she kind of whispered it to her. now, i don't know what she said or--she said shhh--or something like that to her--i didn't understand, but she did look down. mr. liebeler. the mother did look down to the little girl? mrs. hunter. yes. mr. liebeler. how long were these people in the store altogether--the family in the store altogether? mrs. hunter. oh, i don't know--i would be scared to say about that, because, not expecting anything--they come and went so much in there--i didn't pay no attention to about how long they was in there. mr. liebeler. were you along with them when they were looking at the furniture? mrs. hunter. no; i was sitting in the platform rocker. mr. liebeler. but the woman went back and looked at furniture with her husband? mrs. hunter. no; she didn't--that's what i say--she just walked along there and she didn't pay that furniture any mind. mr. liebeler. did you have any feeling that there was any argument going on between them or hostility between them or anything like that? mrs. hunter. well, now, i just think to myself--what is he looking at that for, she isn't interested. that's just the opinion that i got. mr. liebeler. you thought he seemed to be much more interested in the furniture than she did? mrs. hunter. yes. mr. liebeler. did it seem strange to you that these people were in the store there for the period of time that they were and there was not a single word exchanged between this man and woman? mrs. hunter. no; i didn't think nothing about that. i don't know--i don't pay too much attention to anything like that, because while they were back there, i got up and got out of my chair before they went back to the car and walked to the door, and was standing looking out the door up toward the bus that comes in for people to get off of, and i didn't pay them any more mind until they went out to get in the car. mr. liebeler. so, they went out and got in the car and what happened then? mrs. hunter. well, when they got in the car--he said something to her, but i couldn't hear that because i was standing in the door and he turned like he was going to go back down that way and i said, "don't go that way, it's a one-way street, you'll have to go through the red light and turn left." and he looked at me and he didn't say thank you or nothing and he just backed out and went on down and i watched him--he turned at the red light--turned down main street. mr. liebeler. he drove east down irving boulevard; is that right? mrs. hunter. he was going down toward plymouth park, i believe it was west--it's a one-way street and you have to go out and come down south. mr. liebeler. which way does irving boulevard run--it runs east and west, doesn't it? mrs. hunter. yes; i would say that it did. mr. liebeler. and it's a one-way street, and it's a one-way street running toward the west; is it not? mrs. hunter. yes. mr. liebeler. so, that he got into the car---- mrs. hunter. he got in the car and backed out here and he acted like he was going to turn this way and i said, "uh-uh, don't go back that way, that's a one-way street and you will have to go down here to the red light and turn to the left," and he went down and turned down main street to the left. mr. liebeler. he went down the street against the traffic, going the wrong direction? mrs. hunter. no; he went down with the traffic, down toward plymouth park. i would say he drove west with the one-way traffic. he was going to go back opposite, and he went on down to the red light on main street and turned to the left. now, where he went to from there, i don't know. i didn't pay him any mind because i was standing there watching some women coming down the street. mr. liebeler. when you say he was going to go back there--you mean in the direction of dallas, don't you? mrs. hunter. that's what i would figure, because he would have to turn, unless he thought he was going to turn and go back down jefferson, if he come in jefferson, but i don't know that he come in jefferson. he couldn't have done that--he would have gotten a ticket for that. mr. liebeler. now, let's see if we can establish it between ourselves here, first, for this discussion, which way irving boulevard runs. when you come toward irving from dallas, it runs--irving boulevard runs in the direction away from dallas, doesn't it, toward the west? mrs. hunter. yes. mr. liebeler. now, the man got in the car and he drove west in the direction of the traffic down irving boulevard? mrs. hunter. yes. mr. liebeler. and turned at the red light on main street? mrs. hunter. he turned left. mr. liebeler. he turned left at the intersection of main and irving boulevard? mrs. hunter. yes. mr. liebeler. and that's the last you saw of the car? mrs. hunter. that's the last i seen of it. mr. liebeler. did this man seem to have any difficulty driving the car as far as you could tell? mrs. hunter. no; not that i could tell. mr. liebeler. you have discussed this whole question, i am sure, with mrs. whitworth from time to time since it happened, haven't you? mrs. hunter. well, not too much. when they come on television and we noticed who it was--i don't know--let me see if i can remember the first time i seen him on television--i wasn't watching it when the president got killed and i didn't know anything about it until way after it happened. mr. liebeler. when did you first get the idea that those people that had been in the store were the oswalds? mrs. hunter. when i seen them on television, and i just says to whatever was sitting there, i said, "that man was down in the furniture store the other day." mr. liebeler. who was it in the room? mrs. hunter. well, it was just one of the kids i don't know--i forgot now which one of them it was, but we were sitting in the house and i said, "that man on television was down at the furniture store the other day," and it was after he got killed that they showed her, i believe, and i recognized her. mr. liebeler. did you recognize these people as soon as you saw them and prior to the time you discussed it with mrs. whitworth? mrs. hunter. well, now, i don't know just how soon--i couldn't be positive just how quick now--i done forgot--that i talked to her after that, but it was after i seen him on television that we discussed it a little bit and all, because after they fixed her up, she was pretty and we did discuss that--the difference she looks now and her down there in the store. mr. liebeler. you mean she does--you think she does look different now? mrs. hunter. oh, yes; she's pretty now. she looked awful down there in that store. mr. liebeler. do you think you would recognize her as the same person if you saw her again? mrs. hunter. i doubt it--very seriously. mr. liebeler. you don't think you would recognize her? mrs. hunter. no; i sure don't, not from the way she looked in that store that day and the way she looks now. now, that's how much difference there was and i generally notice anyone by their eyes quicker than anything else. mr. liebeler. when did you notice that she looked different? mrs. hunter. oh--it was---- mr. liebeler. is that when you saw her on television after the assassination? mrs. hunter. no; the first time i seen her, she looked just common, just like she did down there at the store that day, and i guess it was when they fixed her up--it must have been after the funeral and she was meeting with these people or something, because it was quite a discussion about how pretty she was and why she let herself go before, because we had discussed it that maybe he didn't want her to fix up or something. mr. liebeler. how long was it after the assassination that you noticed this difference between marina oswald as she appeared on television and in the paper? mrs. hunter. well, now, you may think i'm funny, but i didn't pay no attention at all to that television--my television wasn't on when he got killed or the parade or nothing. i was sitting at the table and after it happened, i wouldn't watch the television--i didn't watch none of the burial procedures or anything--any of that. mr. liebeler. but at some point you noticed that marina oswald looked different than she had the day she was in the store? mrs. hunter. yes. mr. liebeler. my question is, when did you first notice that? mrs. hunter. well, it was undoubtedly quite a few days or several days after oswald--after jack ruby killed oswald. mr. liebeler. as much as a week after that? mrs. hunter. well--it was just after that--i wouldn't say just definite what time it was, because, you don't notice anything like that. naturally, it's going to pop in your mind when you do notice something like that, but just as soon as i seen her fixed up on tv, i just noticed it was quite a difference of how she looked then and before. mr. liebeler. you think it was within a week after the time ruby shot oswald, is that right? mrs. hunter. i wouldn't say--not now, it has been too long ago. mr. liebeler. but you now do have some doubt in your mind after having seen her as to whether you would even recognize her as the same person that was in the store, is that right? mrs. hunter. well, with the way her features looked on television now and the way i seen her in the store--yes; because she dresses nice and she's real cute. she dresses cute and she was sloppy in the store that day. mr. liebeler. her face hasn't changed any, has it, she has the same face. mrs. hunter. oh, her hair makes a difference now. i might recognize her--i wouldn't say i wouldn't or i would, but i don't know--i've made the remark two or three times that she doesn't look like she did the day i seen her in the store. mr. liebeler. but you still don't have any doubt in your mind that it actually was she that was in the store the day you saw her? mrs. hunter. well, i will say this, that the one i seen in the store and the first time i seen her on television the first time was the same woman--let's put it that way. mr. liebeler. did you ever tell anybody that oswald actually turned down irving boulevard and went against the traffic when he came out of the store and went against the traffic? mrs. hunter. well, no; i didn't tell them that he went east. i told them he started to turn east and i told him he was going the wrong direction and he would have to turn back. now, that woman from england that came here-- mr. liebeler. were you there that day she came? mrs. hunter. yes; she come to my house that night. mr. liebeler. do you remember what you told her about that? mrs. hunter. well, just the same thing--about the same thing i have told you, because that's about all i know. i might have remembered a few different little points then that have slipped my mind now, but that's just like what i told you, i guess a few little ends and odds have slipped, but that's just about all i know, because i wasn't expecting that and i wasn't looking for nothing like that and i just didn't think too much about it. mr. liebeler. did mrs. whitworth see these people get in the car and drive away, do you know? mrs. hunter. i don't know, because she was on that side where they come out and i was on this--at a door standing in the door. mr. liebeler. you were closer to the door than mrs. whitworth? mrs. hunter. no; i was closer to the car than she was. she was back down here where they generally went into the store. mr. liebeler. she was further away from the front door where the car was parked than you were? mrs. hunter. now, i don't know whether she was in the door or not. i have never discussed it with her. mr. liebeler. and you have never told mrs. whitworth that this man got in the car and drove the wrong way down the street? mrs. hunter. the only thing that--i says, "he started to go back down irving boulevard." i did say that to her one day because it was a one-way street and he was going the wrong way then. mr. liebeler. do you think if we have mrs. oswald come in here next friday morning and you come in and look at her and the children too, do you think you would be able to come here and tell us if they were the people that were in that store? mrs. hunter. well, i wouldn't say--i just wouldn't say. mr. liebeler. well, we have asked mrs. whitworth to come in--to come back friday morning at o'clock and we will have mrs. oswald and the babies come in and we would like for you to come back to see if they were the people in the store. would you be willing to do that? mrs. hunter. yes; i will be willing to do it, but now, it's like i say--i wouldn't say i would recognize her now because she is pretty now. mr. liebeler. do you think she would recognize you, do you think she would remember being in the store if she had really been in there? mrs. hunter. i wouldn't know that--that's her--i don't know because i never did interfere with the people that come in there to do business with her or i i never did say anything to them and i never did answer her telephone or nothing at that business. i was just sitting in there talking to her. mr. liebeler. let me suspend with the questioning now, mrs. hunter, until friday morning. mrs. hunter. this friday morning? mr. liebeler. yes; day after tomorrow. you and mrs. whitworth can come back at that time and we will bring mrs. oswald here. mrs. hunter. that's all right. she is pretty now but she wasn't then. mr. liebeler. before you go, i want to show you some pictures here and ask you if you recognize any of the people in them. i show you pizzo exhibit no. -a and ask if you recognize anybody in that picture. mrs. hunter. well, just not offhand--not, no; i don't. mr. liebeler. i will ask you the same question with regard to pizzo exhibit no. -b. mrs. hunter. no. mr. liebeler. you don't recognize anybody in that picture? mrs. hunter. no. mr. liebeler. the same question with respect to bringuier exhibit no. . mrs. hunter. no; not dressed like that--i don't. mr. liebeler. i show you commission exhibit no. and ask if you recognize anybody in that picture. mrs. hunter. yes. mr. liebeler. you are pointing to a woman that's holding a child. mrs. hunter. i don't know what she's holding--i can't tell that. mr. liebeler. anyway, there is a woman sitting there in a chair? mrs. hunter. yes. mr. liebeler. as we face the picture, it's on the farthest left, is that right, and who is that? mrs. hunter. well, that looks like her a little bit--but she's got her hair fixed still different than she had it in the store that day. mr. liebeler. what about the man sitting right next to her, does he look like the man that was in the store that day? mrs. hunter. no. mr. liebeler. you don't think he resembles the man that was in the store? mrs. hunter. no; that's not him, and that's mrs. oswald. that may be a brother, but that's not him. i never did see his brother because i didn't watch none of that. i just didn't want to live with it. mr. liebeler. now, i show you a picture that has been marked garner exhibit no. and ask you if that looks like anybody you have ever seen before. mrs. hunter. well, now, looking from up this way it could be--from here up--it could be. mr. liebeler. you think that that resembles the man who was in the store somewhat? mrs. hunter. i would say he's kind of built that way. mr. liebeler. what about pizzo exhibit no. -c, does that look like the man who was in the store? mrs. hunter. well, it could look like him some, but he was not dressed that way. mr. liebeler. you are not sure that that was him? mrs. hunter. no; i wouldn't say it was with him dressed that way because i didn't have that much hankering to really tell what he really looked like and it has been so long since i've seen it on the television that i wouldn't guarantee that--not looking for nothing. mr. liebeler. all right, thank you very much. we will see you on friday. testimony of edith whitworth the testimony of edith whitworth was taken at p.m., on july , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. liebeler. would you stand and take the oath, please? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mrs. whitworth. i do. mr. liebeler. my name is wesley j. liebeler. i am an attorney on the staff of the president's commission investigating the assassination of president kennedy. i have been authorized to take your testimony by the commission pursuant to authority granted to it by executive order no. , dated november , , and by joint resolution of congress no. . under the commission's rules relating to the taking of testimony by the commission, you are entitled to have an attorney present at this or any other hearing at which you may appear before the commission and you are entitled to -days' notice of your appearance here. you are also entitled to exercise the usual privileges with regard to self incrimination and so forth as far as not answering questions is concerned. i assume that since you are here without an attorney, that you do not wish to have your attorney present at the session. in fact, very few witnesses do have their attorneys present. am i correct in that understanding? mrs. whitworth. well, i assume that--i don't see any use of me having one. mr. liebeler. would you state your name for the record? mrs. whitworth. my name is edith whitworth. mr. liebeler. where do you live? mrs. whitworth. i live at south jefferson, irving, tex. mr. liebeler. and you are married; is that correct? mrs. whitworth. yes. mr. liebeler. how many children do you have? mrs. whitworth. i have two. mr. liebeler. approximately how old are they? mrs. whitworth. my daughter is years old and my son years old. mr. liebeler. when were they born? mrs. whitworth. my daughter was born may , , and my son was born may , . mr. liebeler. your daughter is also married, is she not? mrs. whitworth. yes; she is. mr. liebeler. what is her married name? mrs. whitworth. her married name--her husband's name is bobby gene hollaway, and her name is joyce. mr. liebeler. it's spelled [spelling] h-o-l-l-a-w-a-y, is that correct? mrs. whitworth. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. do they have any children? mrs. whitworth. they have two children. mr. liebeler. how old are they, and when were they born? mrs. whitworth. the first one--bryan will be years old the th of october, i think i'm right on that; and the other one was born the th day of last october--he will be year old. mr. liebeler. the youngest one was born when? mrs. whitworth. wait--i said the th of october--i believe that oldest one is the th of october--i am sorry. mr. liebeler. what is the name of the older child? mrs. whitworth. bryan douglas. mr. liebeler. you say he was born on what date? mrs. whitworth. i believe it was october . mr. liebeler. what year? mrs. whitworth. and he will be years old this october--he was last year--that will be , wouldn't it? mr. liebeler. the other child's name is what? mrs. whitworth. jeffery lynn. he was born october , . you got me on those birthdays--i have forgotten them. i believe october is right--i'm not just real sure. mr. liebeler. it is my understanding that you formerly operated a used furniture store in irving, tex.; is that right? mrs. whitworth. yes; i did until about the th day of january of this year. mr. liebeler. what was the name of that store? mrs. whitworth. furniture mart. mr. liebeler. where was it located? mrs. whitworth. east irving boulevard. mr. liebeler. irving boulevard runs east and west, does it not? mrs. whitworth. yes; it does. mr. liebeler. which side of the street is the furniture store on? mrs. whitworth. that would be on the right-hand side going west. mr. liebeler. going away from dallas or toward dallas? mrs. whitworth. going west. mr. liebeler. that would be the north side? mrs. whitworth. the north side; yes. mr. liebeler. the fbi has advised us that you have told them that some time during , you believe that lee harvey oswald was in your furniture store; is that right? mrs. whitworth. yes; it is. mr. liebeler. would you tell me all the circumstances surrounding that event, to the best of your recollection? mrs. whitworth. well, as far as the date, i couldn't, you know, say that it was any day--any special day, but it was along the first of november. we had, you know, a discussion about the babies--that's the reason you have that there about my baby--my grandchildren, and their children. they had the baby with them at that time. we had at one time had a gun shop in there. we had a gunsmith sign out in front and i presume he had came up and saw that sign there and he stopped and came in. we have two doors in this place of business--one was on the west side and the west end, and one on the east end. he had pulled up there at the front as well as i remember and he walked around his car and came into the west door. mr. liebeler. you saw him drive up in the car? mrs. whitworth. yes; because it was all glass in front and i was sitting at the--well, it's the cash stand--we call it there. mr. liebeler. which direction was he driving the car at that time? mrs. whitworth. he was driving west on a one-way street--that's a one way there. mr. liebeler. running from east to west? mrs. whitworth. east to west. mr. liebeler. what kind of a car did he have, mrs. whitworth? mrs. whitworth. well, as far as i can remember--i wouldn't be--i wouldn't say for sure. all i can say is that i believe, you know, not paying a lot of attention to the car and the car not meaning anything at that time, that it was a two-tone blue and white. it was either a ford or a plymouth. now, i wouldn't swear to that, but it was either one--the car didn't mean anything to me at that time. anyway, he came in and he stood---- mr. liebeler. let me ask you some questions about the car first--how many people were in the car when you saw it drive up? mrs. whitworth. i didn't pay any attention to it--just really when it drove up out there. when i did pay attention to it was when he got back in it, you know, and it was faintly, you know. as to them getting back in it, i wouldn't say that there was anyone else in it--i wouldn't say that they were the only ones that was in it. they were the only ones that come in the store. mr. liebeler. did you notice specifically that oswald was driving? mrs. whitworth. i wouldn't say that he was, and i wouldn't say that he drove off in the car. i wouldn't say that, because, like i say, it didn't mean anything to me at that time, just faintly, i would say that that car was blue and white, two-tone, and that it was either a ford or a plymouth--now, i wouldn't swear to that. mr. liebeler. so, he drove up in front of the store and he got out of the car and came in--which door--did he come in? mrs. whitworth. he came in the west door. mr. liebeler. he came in the west door? mrs. whitworth. west door; he came in and he stood right in front of me there, and i arose up out of my chair and asked him, you know, if i could help him and he asked for something for a gun, and he had whatever this was wrapped up and it was about so long, as well as i can remember, not paying too much attention to it at that time, but we didn't have the gunshop in there then. it had gone out of business and i told him, no, i didn't have anything there, and whatever he was looking for--that i didn't have it. mr. liebeler. now, when you say, "so long," you held your hands up and how many inches was that--would you hold your hands up again? mrs. whitworth [indicating]. i would say it was about like that. mr. liebeler. how many inches do you think that is? mrs. whitworth. well, i would say about inches. mr. liebeler. about inches? mrs. whitworth. that's what i would say. you know, just judging it. it could have been longer and it could have been shorter, but it was wrapped up, i know that. mr. liebeler. he didn't have occasion to open it up for you while he was in the store? mrs. whitworth. no. mr. liebeler. now, did he ask you about a specific part for it? mrs. whitworth. yes; he did. but i don't know what it was because i didn't pay any attention to it because it was something, you know, for a gun and i couldn't help him, so i didn't pay any attention to it, you know, because i never worked in a gunshop anyway and i know nothing about guns whatever. mr. liebeler. how come he came into this used furniture shop looking for a gun part? mrs. whitworth. well, i had a sign--i mean, i had had a gun shop in there, a man had leased part of my store and he had a gunshop in there, one part of it, but he had been moved for quite a while, but the sign hadn't been taken down. mr. liebeler. so, there was still a sign on the front of the building saying that there was a gunshop there? mrs. whitworth. yes. mr. liebeler. go ahead and tell me what are the other circumstances? mrs. whitworth. and when i told him that i didn't have anything--i didn't have what he was looking for, but i probably told him where he could go get it. i don't remember that i did, but i usually would tell someone where they could go to get such a thing and he turned around and he looked and he realized, i guess, that it was a furniture store and he said, "you have furniture in here?" i said, "yes, i do." he says, "i'm going to need some in a couple of weeks or so," and i said, "well, i'll be glad to show you what i have." i had new and used furniture and he wanted bedroom furniture, he told me that, and he turned--he went back to the car and came back in and when he came back in his wife followed him in with the young baby and the little girl and we walked straight to the back of the building where i had the bedroom suites and i showed him the bedroom suites and i told him about the bedroom suites and i noticed that he would look over to her and she would never--she never uttered a word and i thought she didn't like what i had and was uninterested, because i didn't, you know, high pressure them to sell them. mr. liebeler. were they interested in new furniture or used furniture? mrs. whitworth. well, i never did get that far along to find out, you know, what they wanted, because she acted like she wasn't interested, you know, and i couldn't talk to him and he was the only one saying anything, and then we got talking about the babies. mr. liebeler. what was that conversation about? mrs. whitworth. well, we was comparing the birthdays of the children and my grandchildren had birthdays kind of similar to theirs, you know, and so it went even so far as to--i said, "well, we wanted a little girl. we wanted one of ours to be a little girl." he said, he wanted one of his to be a little boy and just jokingly, i said, "well, let's just swap then." and, he kind of smiled but she still didn't say anything, didn't even offer to show us the baby. we didn't know then, you know, that she couldn't even speak, or probably couldn't understand what we said, so she walked clear away from us and we walked back toward the front of the building there and she walked out ahead of him--the little girl was right in front of her, you know, and this was the older little girl, and they went on to the car and the little girl was kind of whining and at one time i thought--well, i'll offer her a piece of candy. i had candy in there, you know, but i never did, i never did offer them any candy and they went on off, but it was them just as sure as i'm sitting here--i'm sure it was him and her too. mr. liebeler. in this conversation about the babies, did they tell you--did this man tell you when his little baby had been born? mrs. whitworth. yes; it was weeks old. mr. liebeler. it was weeks old at that time? mrs. whitworth. yes. mr. liebeler. and he told you it was weeks old? mrs. whitworth. yes. mr. liebeler. did he tell you the date on which the baby was born? mrs. whitworth. he probably did at that time, but i don't know--the date on that kind of corresponded with the date of the birthday of my oldest grandson there. mr. liebeler. you have no recollection as to whether or not he told you the date or not; is that correct? or you just don't remember the date--do you remember whether he told you or not? mrs. whitworth. i'm sure that he told me. i just don't remember the date. mr. liebeler. did he tell you by saying, "well, the baby is weeks old," or did he tell you specifically that the baby was born on such and such a date; do you remember? mrs. whitworth. no; i wouldn't swear to it, but i'm pretty sure he told me the date at that time but the baby was weeks old and i judge that he would have been in the store around the th, th, or th of november, because we were fixing to go to a ball game, this lady and i, and i have a son that plays football for irving high school and we were going on to the football game and that's how come this lady to be in there. you know, we were planning to go together or get tickets to the football game and it had to be along in there--the first week in november. mr. liebeler. now, do you remember a specific football game that you were going to see; is that how you fixed the date as early in november? mrs. whitworth. yes. mr. liebeler. can you tell us what ball game that would have been? mrs. whitworth. it probably was richland hills that we were going to. mr. liebeler. richland hills was going to play who? mrs. whitworth. irving, and we were going to richland hills--that's a fort worth team. mr. liebeler. have you made any efforts, since this question came up, to find out the exact date on which the richland hills team played the irving team, did you go back and look it up? mrs. whitworth. i probably did at one time, but i couldn't tell you what the date was now, except that it was a friday night. it was going to be on friday and it was before that friday. now, mrs. hunter might be able to tell you that. i didn't go back and try to review anything before i come over here. at that time, you know, i knew what game it was, but i haven't reviewed it. mr. liebeler. did i understand you to say correctly that there was a friend of yours that was in the store at the time they were there? mrs. whitworth. yes. mr. liebeler. that was mrs. hunter? mrs. whitworth. yes; mrs. hunter. mr. liebeler. did i also understand you to say correctly that mrs. hunter was there for the purpose of getting tickets to go to the football game? mrs. whitworth. we were planning a trip, you know, to this football game. mr. liebeler. does mrs. hunter ordinarily come into the store? mrs. whitworth. yes; she did--i had just begun to know her, you know, and it all come about through school doings and all, and i usually got her tickets or she got my tickets when we were going to travel to a game or so. mr. liebeler. can you fix a day of the week any more specifically than you have as to when this might have occurred? mrs. whitworth. i couldn't--no; i couldn't. mr. liebeler. did mrs. hunter come in usually on a particular day or did she just come in from time to time? mrs. whitworth. well, she said she did--for some reason why or other, but to me, i couldn't fix any certain day, you know, working in the public like i did and all that. i couldn't, you know, not meaning anything at that time--i couldn't put a date on it, you know, what day she come or anything. usually, the tickets would go on sale on a tuesday or wednesday, if they were going to travel to play, and i have my tickets to the home games, you know, and she could say what day it was, but i couldn't. mr. liebeler. was this particular ball game going to be played at richland hills; is that right? mrs. whitworth. yes; it was. mr. liebeler. so you were talking about getting the tickets and were going on over to richland hills? mrs. whitworth. to this game. mr. liebeler. and you said lee oswald--the oswalds were in your store on the weekend preceding the game? mrs. whitworth. it wasn't the weekend. mr. liebeler. during the week? mrs. whitworth. during the week. mr. liebeler. right; during the week preceding the weekend on which richland hills played irving. mrs. whitworth. yes. mr. liebeler. do you remember being interviewed by two agents of the fbi about the middle of december on this whole question? mrs. whitworth. on a saturday; yes, sir. mr. liebeler. yes; saturday, december , . mrs. whitworth. i do remember; it was a saturday that they came out. mr. liebeler. and do you remember the names of the agents? mrs. whitworth. no; i don't. they were just two tall fellows and i don't even know the names--i didn't take them down and i didn't think it was that important. mr. liebeler. do you remember telling those two men specifically that when this man's wife came in, when oswald's wife came in, that oswald told you that his youngest child had been born on october , ? mrs. whitworth. probably so--somewhere, you know, it was along that time, but you know it has been so long now that i have forgotten the dates. mr. liebeler. and do you remember telling the fbi agents specifically the date october , ? mrs. whitworth. i believe so. now, like i say, i wouldn't swear to that but if i told them, that's what he had told me. i haven't reviewed this, like i say, before i come over here, so i'm just telling you what i think absolutely is true--the truth. mr. liebeler. right; and i want to try and find the state of your recollection as to just what this man told you about the date of birth of this young child, and if you remember specifically that he told you that the child was born october , , i want you to tell me that, and if you can't remember that, i want you just to say that and it is very important that you give me the exact state of your recollection on that. mrs. whitworth. now, i'm not going to say that i remember him telling me that because it has been too long ago, you know, it has been too long back to say it was october --like when i come over here and you asked me my grandson's birthday that i had forgotten and there is too much that goes through my mind in that length of time. we talked about it and i'm sure he told me the birthdays of the babies, but it has been too long now and i wouldn't say that he told me october , but the baby was weeks old when he was in the store and it was the first week in november that he was in the store and i don't know what date that would have been that he was in the store. mr. liebeler. was there anybody else in the store besides you and mrs. hunter and this man oswald and the wife and the two little children during this time? mrs. whitworth. no; i don't believe there was. there was someone out in front of the store, you know, there always was. i remember something about that, but i wouldn't swear that there was anyone out there in front, any particular person out in front, but there usually was two or three men that kind of hung around there because that was on the corner and had been the bus station and, you know, people just walk in and walk out there, you know, and they ask for information for first one thing and another, you know, in my store and i was always real good about giving them information and like i probably told him where he could go get the gun part he was looking for. mr. liebeler. do you remember whether you directed him to another gunshop or not? mrs. whitworth. just to be sure about it, i don't know now, but i'm just almost sure that i did if he asked me. mr. liebeler. do you remember where you told him to go? mrs. whitworth. if i directed him, it would have been east of me, probably at the irving sports shop or even down on the highway at some pawnshop or something like that. mr. liebeler. do you know the man who owns the irving sports shop? mrs. whitworth. yes; woodrow greener. mr. liebeler. how long have you known him? mrs. whitworth. oh, i have known woodrow for about years, i guess. mr. liebeler. are you a good friend of his or close to him at all? mrs. whitworth. no; i wouldn't say real close--i just knew him. he had been in and out of business there for a number of years and i have lived in irving all of my life, so i wouldn't say i was a real close friend to him--i just know him. mr. liebeler. do you know a young man by the name of dial ryder? mrs. whitworth. i didn't know dial ryder. mr. liebeler. do you know ryder now; have you met him since that time? mrs. whitworth. no; i haven't. mr. liebeler. have you ever discussed this series of events with mr. greener? mrs. whitworth. yes; i did discuss it with mr. greener over the telephone and woodrow greener was out of town. he said at that time he probably was, but he was gone deer hunting, you know, he hunts, and he and his wife were out of town at that time because we talked about it. mr. liebeler. when did you talk to mr. greener about this; do you remember? mrs. whitworth. when the fbi men came out there and talked to me on the saturday. mr. liebeler. on that same saturday? mrs. whitworth. yes. mr. liebeler. and you never had any discussion with mr. greener at any time about this at all prior to the time in november when the fbi talked to you; is that right? mrs. whitworth. not until the fbi talked to me, you know, i didn't talk to him or anything, but i called woodrow on the telephone and told him and the fbi men were in his store at that time when i called him and that was the only time he told me, but i don't think i was even in town at that time. mr. liebeler. do you read the newspaper, generally speaking? mrs. whitworth. yes. mr. liebeler. which newspapers do you read? mrs. whitworth. well, i take them all--i read them all. i take the dallas morning news and i take the times herald out of dallas and then i have the irving papers too and i read them all. mr. liebeler. do you remember that shortly after the assassination, around thanksgiving time, as a matter of fact, there was a story in the dallas times herald to the effect that oswald had had some work done on his rifle in the irving sports shop? mrs. whitworth. yes; i read that and i also saw it on television. mr. liebeler. when you saw that, it was also reported on television; is that right? mrs. whitworth. yes; it sure did. as well as i can remember it, it showed this ryder, or whatever his name was, working around there and talking to the men. mr. liebeler. who was the first person you ever discussed oswald's presence in your store with? mrs. whitworth. i never discussed it until i saw him on television and also his wife. first, when i saw him on television i told my husband, but my husband didn't work in the store, then, he worked at another furniture store on down on the east end of the road, you know, and i told him, i said, "why, i have seen the fellow somewhere before," and it didn't dawn on me at that minute where. he says, "well, you have probably seen him in the store." just like that. i mean, anybody would come through irving and be looking for anything like that would more than likely stop in my store quicker than they would any other place. mr. liebeler. looking for furniture, you mean? mrs. whitworth. well, if he was looking for a gun or anything like that he would stop in there because this sign was a real good sign, you know, it was and out there, and also it was a good furniture location. so he said "you probably have," and we didn't discuss it any more until we saw her on television, mrs. oswald, and she was leaving the jail or something, with her mother-in-law and had these two babies. i said, "oh, yes, i remember them real well," and i discussed it again with him and i told him about this and i said that those kids are about the age of bryan and jeff and we discussed it again and then i knew definitely he had been in there and i knew that he was the fellow that i talked to, and i said, "well, he seemed to be such a nice man." he even thanked me for my time when he walked out--you know, he thanked me for the time i had spent with him, more so than anyone else. i mean, very few people will thank anyone for their time in a store like that, you know, but he did. he thanked me for his time. mr. liebeler. isn't it a fact that a newspaper reporter came into your store one day and talked to you about this? mrs. whitworth. a lady. mr. liebeler. when was that? mrs. whitworth. she was before the fbi men came and talked to me and i don't have her name, but one of the fbi men called me and asked me if i remembered her name and i don't. the only thing, she came in a little foreign car and another gentleman was driving the car for her and she showed me her credentials, just who she was, and she told me she was a white house correspondent. mr. liebeler. would you remember her name if i suggested it to you? mrs. whitworth. i don't know whether i would or not. mr. liebeler. how about coleman, does that seem familiar to you? mrs. whitworth. might have been. mr. liebeler. do you remember when she came by, was that after you had seen ryder on television telling about oswald? mrs. whitworth. no; that was before. mr. liebeler. it was before? mrs. whitworth. yes; it was before. mr. liebeler. and did you tell this lady reporter the same story you told us--exactly? mrs. whitworth. yes; and she took it down at that time and this gentleman that was with her, he had a tape recorder and he took down everything that i said. mr. liebeler. they took it down on a tape recorder? mrs. whitworth. yes; he sure did, and she wrote it down in a little notebook, you know, but she accidentally stopped in the store. i had never told anyone, you know, had ever made the statement to anybody that he was in there. of course, it was discussed, i'm sure, to people that i knew, you know, i said, "well, i had seen him," but there are a lot of people in irving i'm sure that had seen him and his wife both. mr. liebeler. did it occur to you after you became aware of the fact that oswald had been in your store asking for some repairs about a gun that you should call the fbi or the dallas police department and tell them about this? mrs. whitworth. no; it really didn't. i just figured i would wait and see if anybody got to looking for him. i didn't contact anyone. i waited until they contacted me. i didn't know where i could be any help to them at all. mr. liebeler. so, the oswalds walked out of the store? mrs. whitworth. yes. mr. liebeler. and then you said mrs. oswald, i believe, and the children went out first; is that right? mrs. whitworth. they were ahead of him. mr. liebeler. how long was oswald in the store--how long did he stay in the store after they left? mrs. whitworth. well, he followed them right on out, but they were in line. she started out before he did, with the children, and the little girl--the little -year-old, you know, was ahead of all of them and i had a little stepoff there and the mother kind of waited until she stepped off of that, but oswald himself never did help her with the children or anything like that while she was in the store, you know. mr. liebeler. and during the time they were in the store she didn't say one word? mrs. whitworth. she never uttered one word that i knew about. i caught him at one time looking at her and i kind of felt like they were exchanging glances or something like that, you know, but she never uttered one word, either whether she liked it or whether she didn't like it, and i made the remark after they left, after we talked about trading the children, you know, jokingly, and i said to mrs. hunter, "well, i don't think she liked what i said about trading those children," and she didn't offer to show us the baby. mr. liebeler. you made quite a fuss over the children, i presume? mrs. whitworth. yes; i am a great hand to notice children. i just really am, you know, and i always felt like it was one way to get in touch with the customer--is to brag on the children, you know. the closer you get to them the better off you are when you are trying to sell them something, and really, i was, you know, interested in selling him furniture when he told me he needed it. mr. liebeler. how about this little -year-old girl, did she seem to be an ordinarily developed girl---she could walk around and everything? mrs. whitworth. yes; she was pretty. mr. liebeler. did she say anything at all? mrs. whitworth. she mumbled--as she went out of the store she was about halfway crying, not really crying, but mumbling something. i couldn't understand her or anything, and that's the reason that at one time i thought--well, i'll hand her a piece of candy, but then i didn't because a lot of people don't like you to give their children candy and the woman hadn't been friendly enough with me to make me really want to, but i really would have liked to have given the little girl some candy. she was a beautiful little child. mr. liebeler. did the little girl say anything you could understand at all? mrs. whitworth. no; she just kind of whined like, you know, it might have been that she was a little cowed or something--i don't know. mr. liebeler. now, as they walked out of the store, did you see them get in the car? mrs. whitworth. i probably did, but i didn't pay much attention to them--to remember how they did--i didn't--it was just like anybody else walking out of the store, you know, i didn't see them get in the car. i'm sure they got in a car and i just faintly remember that maybe that that car was a two-tone car and that they got in there and drove off and like i say, i don't know how they got into the car, because i didn't pay too much attention to them. mr. liebeler. did you see where they went when they got in the car? mrs. whitworth. i didn't pay too much attention. mrs. hunter said they went back the wrong way down the street. mr. liebeler. but you didn't see that? mrs. whitworth. i probably saw it but i didn't--i wouldn't say that they did because i don't know. so many people pull that stunt anyway and it was just everyday, you know, people make mistakes on that street all the time about going the wrong way and i had seen numbers of them going the wrong way and if they did go, the wrong way, you know, i don't remember it. mr. liebeler. it wasn't such an extraordinary thing to have that happen? mrs. whitworth. no; but what was, you know, out of the ordinary person--not talking. i'm friendly--i'm just a real friendly person and going on over the babies--i would have liked to have looked at the baby and all. that was what stuck with me more than anything else, you know, the way she acted and him too. he was nothing out of the ordinary except that he thanked me for his time, you know, that he had taken, and i suggested furniture to him and tried to find out what kind they were looking for and they weren't quite ready for it and it was going to be a couple of weeks before they moved out and he told me that they were living in an apartment. mr. liebeler. what did he tell you about that? mrs. whitworth. i asked him. so many people would come in the store, you know, to buy furniture you know, and try to get it as cheap as they could because they were living in a furnished apartment, so i usually asked them if they were in apartments or something, and he told me they were and i know they wanted bedroom furniture, because i took them back there and showed them bedroom furniture. they also had to have living room furniture and i asked him what type of furniture and i said, "so many people are using early american or danish modern." i mean, young people were using a lot of that danish modern and i couldn't get anything out of her even after suggesting that and i thought if i suggested that that they would tell me what they were looking for, but i never did find out. mr. liebeler. did he say where they lived? mrs. whitworth. no. mr. liebeler. but he said they were living in an apartment? mrs. whitworth. they were living in an apartment--yes. mr. liebeler. now, did you hear subsequent to that time on television that oswald and his wife weren't living together? mrs. whitworth. i heard, yes; you know--after the assassination, i mean, but even at that time i never asked him his name or anything like that. if i had carried out what i usually do, i would have gotten his name, because if they are looking for anything that i don't have--didn't have in the store, i would suggest that they let me give them a card, you know, to go to the wholesale house. had i given them a card to the wholesale house, he would have had to give me his name. you see, i didn't get that far along on it. i mean, you know, and i just didn't--i wished i had now, but she sure was with him, whether she knew where she was going or what she was doing or anything, but she certainly was with him. even, you know, her dress and all--as far as telling you what color she had on--i could tell you just about how she was dressed. she looked clean but she looked like she was a person that had gotten in the car to come up to town for something and she probably come out of the house with just the dress she had on and a short coat, and the little girl had on some kind of a short coat. it wasn't really cold--it wasn't real cold then and he had on slacks. he didn't have on what i call really work clothes--he wasn't dressed--but he had on a pair of slacks. mr. liebeler. what kind of shirt did he have on? mrs. whitworth. it was a sport coat, i think, with the collar turned back and he had on a sweater, you know, deal. they weren't dressed, you know, really dressed, but they were dressed good enough to go out, you know, to kind of casual shop or something like that--that kind of shopping. mr. liebeler. are you absolutely sure that they drove up at first in an automobile and that they went back out and got into an automobile and drove away? mrs. whitworth. yes; they did. mr. liebeler. the report that i have of the interview you had with the fbi agents in december indicates that you told them that they went out of the store and got into the car and made a =u=-turn and drove off east down irving boulevard. mrs. whitworth. yes. mr. liebeler. do you remember telling them that? mrs. whitworth. well, where i got that--i wouldn't swear that they really went down, you know, turned their car there--mrs. hunter told me that they did, you know, and kind of reviewed me at that time, but so many people did that anyway that they went back down the wrong way. it has been so long now i have, you know, really forgotten whether they did or not, but you know, the color of the car and the make of the car stands out more to me than anything. there was only one correct way for them to go and that was west. mr. liebeler. you didn't at any time see anybody else with them? mrs. whitworth. i wouldn't swear to it. mr. liebeler. you didn't see anybody? mrs. whitworth. i didn't see anyone--no. they didn't get out of the car, let me put it that way. mr. liebeler. did you see the car close enough at any time to see whether there was anybody else sitting in the car? mrs. whitworth. i could have seen it, but i didn't pay any attention to it. they could have had a driver--i don't know. mr. liebeler. you are sure it wasn't a station wagon that was sitting out there? mrs. whitworth. i'm not sure--i'm really not, but it does not seem like it was. had i known all this was coming up i would have took it all down, but you know, people--when you are in business, you don't pay a lot of attention to that, but there are incidents that happen that will, you know, be clear in your mind. mr. liebeler. i show you a picture that has been marked pizzo exhibit no. -a, and i ask you if you recognize anybody in that picture? mrs. whitworth. i don't--no; i don't. mr. liebeler. i show you another photograph that has been marked pizzo exhibit no. -b, and ask you if you recognize anybody in that picture? mrs. whitworth. i don't know this one either. mr. liebeler. you don't recognize anybody in there either? mrs. whitworth. no; not as far as i see it. mr. liebeler. now, what about bringuier exhibit no. , do you see anybody in there that looks familiar? mrs. whitworth. i couldn't identify anyone in there. mr. liebeler. now, what about garner exhibit no. , does that person look familiar to you? mrs. whitworth. yes; he does. mr. liebeler. that one does? mrs. whitworth. yes. mr. liebeler. and is that the same man that came in the store that day? mrs. whitworth. yes; he looked younger in the store than he does there. of course, there's the shadow that's on him there that causes him to look that way, but he does. mr. liebeler. does that look like the man that came in the store--do you have any doubt about it? mrs. whitworth. i don't have a doubt in the world but what it wasn't him. mr. liebeler. now, i will show you this one--pizzo exhibit no. -c. mrs. whitworth. now, that looks more like him--he was more pleasant looking in the store than he is in these pictures here. mr. liebeler. now, i show you a picture that has been marked commission exhibit no. , and ask you if you recognize anybody in that picture? mrs. whitworth. huh. mr. liebeler. who do you recognize there? mrs. whitworth. mrs. oswald is there, i mean, his wife. mr. liebeler. and you think that's the woman that was in the store that day? mrs. whitworth. yes; but of course she's not dressed there like she was, but that's her and that's the little girl and the little girl wasn't dressed like that either. mr. liebeler. now, i will show you a photograph marked commission exhibit no. and i ask you if you recognize anybody in there? mrs. whitworth. well, that's his wife there, isn't it? mr. liebeler. does that look like the woman that was in the store? mrs. whitworth. yes; she was attractive even then, i mean, she was a pretty girl then, of course, when she came in the store she wore her hair just right back and had it in a pony tail back that way. mr. liebeler. did she have short hair or long hair? mrs. whitworth. she had long hair and had enough that she could tie it back here. mr. liebeler. what about that man sitting in the middle there of commission exhibit no. , does he look familiar to you? mrs. whitworth. well, yes; he kind of resembles him--yes. mr. liebeler. does that look something like the man that was in the store? mrs. whitworth. yes; the one sitting there with her? mr. liebeler. yes; here is another picture that has been marked as commission exhibit no. , and i ask you if you recognize any of the people in that picture? mrs. whitworth. that's mrs. oswald there. mr. liebeler. what about the man? does that man look like the man that was there in the store? mrs. whitworth. well, it resembles him. of course, if i could see him right in the face, you know, like i looked at him--the features are---like him. mr. liebeler. yes; and in exhibit no. , of course, he does present a full face. mrs. whitworth. that looks more like him there, you know, it really does. mr. liebeler. now, mrs. whitworth, the testimony that you have given to us about this event is of considerable importance to the commission for many reasons that are not, i'm sure, even clear to you at the moment. mrs. whitworth. yes. mr. liebeler. would you be willing to come back again on friday morning and meet with marina oswald and the children to see if those really were the people that were in your store? mrs. whitworth. this friday morning? mr. liebeler. yes. mrs. whitworth. i like you to put it up early enough--i go to work at on friday and if you would make it real early, and i have another appointment real early friday morning that i could put off, i guess, or maybe do it in the morning. i have an appointment to get my hair fixed on friday and i have that every friday morning and i go to work at and i would like for this not to interfere any more than is possible, you know, with my job. i work for j. c. penney's there in plymouth park and they are real nice. they have given me time off because they had to, you know, but i would rather it not interfere with that. mr. liebeler. what time would be convenient for you on friday morning--about o'clock? mrs. whitworth. i would like to meet with her--that would be all right. really, i would like to meet with her one time, you know, to--of course, i have only seen her on television and i saw her there at the store and i would like for her to tell me that she went into that store. i believe she would if she's telling what she did--she might not recognize me now, you know, out of the store, but i believe that woman would tell you that she went in that store if she saw that store. i believe she would--that little girl, the oldest one, isn't she a dark headed girl, and at that time she wore--she had her bangs cut. mr. liebeler. i don't know; i have never seen the little girl. mrs. whitworth. well, she was real attractive and i am attracted to little girls, you know, i just love them. of course, i love little boys, too, you understand, because i've got one of them, but little girls--mine--i used to sew for them and i have always wanted another little girl and i always made over little girls more so than i did little boys, that that little girl, as well as i remember, she had straight hair and she had little bangs in the front and she was just a real cute child, but i would really like to meet with them again and i would like for her to tell me that she went in that store. she would remember it; i'm sure that she would remember it. there isn't any doubt in my mind but that she wasn't in there and him too. mr. liebeler. then, we will meet with you again at o'clock on friday morning. mrs. whitworth. all right. mr. liebeler. by the way, how long would you say that the husband and wife were in the store from the time that they came back in the second time? mrs. whitworth. well, or minutes--maybe. mr. liebeler. that was during the time that they were looking at furniture? mrs. whitworth. yes; she didn't come in, now, until he went back to the car. mr. liebeler. my question is: from the time that he went back out and she came in, how long were the two of them in the store together? mrs. whitworth. i'd say or minutes, which is a long time. mr. liebeler. yes; and did she seem interested in any of the furniture--what did she do during this or minute period? mrs. whitworth. well, she walked back where we were and i had moved some beds to show her, pulling them around and showing them to her, and as well as i remember, i had a little red maple suite back there and i had some dark walnut suites and i was showing them used furniture because they looked like people that would buy used furniture and she stood there and looked and, like i say, the little girl was whining around and i would see him exchange glances at her, you know, kind of look up and down but i never did see her--i never did catch her but i thought they were exchanging glances at one another and she was not interested and she walked back up and around in the other part of the store and i stayed back there and i talked to him. mr. liebeler. did you have the feeling that there was any hostility between these two people that they weren't getting along too well? mrs. whitworth. well, she just didn't say anything. she wasn't interested in what he was looking at, didn't look to be, you know, and if they were--well--i just don't know, or i would say that there was any misunderstanding--there wasn't any smiles and there wasn't any jokes and neither one of them exchanged smiles. it wouldn't be like if i was going out shopping and my husband was going to buy something for me. i believe i would be more pleasant, but you know, i guess she just didn't know what he was talking about, but we were looking at furniture and i believe he went back to the car and told her to get out. mr. liebeler. she just didn't seem to be very interested in that furniture? mrs. whitworth. no; she didn't. mr. liebeler. have you ever had any other occasion in the entire time you have been running a furniture store, when a man and a wife came in and spent or minutes looking at furniture in a store and they never exchanged one single word between each other? mrs. whitworth. no; not one single word. mr. liebeler. that just almost defies ordinary human experience; doesn't it? mrs. whitworth. yes. mr. liebeler. wouldn't you say that--usually? mrs. whitworth. no; i never had anything like that. they usually agree or disagree and they usually exchange a few words. mr. liebeler. yes; they usually exchange a few words. mrs. whitworth. no; i never had an occasion like that--that's the reason it stood out to me like that more than anything else. i have waited on a lot of people in years and i have had an awful lot of people come in my store. some of them i would recognize and some of them i wouldn't, but that incident just stood out and after all of this--you just knew it was them. mr. liebeler. would it refresh your recollection if i suggested that oswald, or this man that came into the store, was looking for a plunger--did he tell you what he was looking for, that he was looking for a plunger? mrs. whitworth. it might have been a plunger. like i say, i don't know a thing in the world about guns. it could have been a plunger. we have discussed that since then and i have never said what it was that he was looking for--whatever he had--he had in his hands. i mean, he had something in his hand. mr. liebeler. where were you standing in the store when he walked out and they got in the car? mrs. whitworth. i believe i walked back up to where my cash--in my cash stand and it hit me about right here and i could lean on it and my candy stand--i would have had to walk around another bar to have gotten to the candy because i couldn't reach over and get it and i was standing right like this and i was looking down on them and this bar hit me about right here [indicating]. mr. liebeler. about waist high? mrs. whitworth. and i couldn't have went inside unless i had turned and walked back around and that's as far as i got--was the cash register. mr. liebeler. could you see the car from where you were standing? mrs. whitworth. i could have. mr. liebeler. did you actually see it drive east down irving boulevard against the traffic? mrs. whitworth. i wouldn't say that i did see it drive east--i don't believe--we talked about it. mr. liebeler. who did? mrs. whitworth. well, i might have made a statement one time about that, but right now, i wouldn't say he did. there's too many cars that drove up there that did go the wrong way, but i would say it was a blue and white car and i have always said that it was a ford or plymouth--it was something with fins on it. mr. liebeler. you say we discussed it--what do you mean by that--who is "we"? mrs. whitworth. mrs. hunter and i, you know, now as far as going back down the wrong way on that street--i wouldn't swear that the man did and i don't think that i ever made the statement that he drove off, because i don't know that he did. mr. liebeler. i quote the fbi report of your interview on december , : "on leaving the furniture mart (second hand furniture store) the oswalds made a =u=-turn and left driving against traffic on east irving boulevard in the direction of a gun repair shop in either a or two-tone blue and white ford or plymouth." do you remember telling the agents that? mrs. whitworth. i probably did and it might be fresher in my mind at that time that they did go, but right now--i have talked with mrs. hunter so much, that she was the one actually that said that they went on the one way street the wrong way. now, i might have said it at that time, but right now, you know, it has been a good while since that happened and not ever thinking anything would come of it--that i could be more specific on what happened on the inside of the store than what happened on the outside, because things like that happen every day, you know, i mean on the outside, but no two people ever come in there and acted like that for that length of time, you know, that i'm not going to swear that he went the wrong way and i'm not going to say that he drove that car off from there. like i say, it wasn't that important to me to know that at that time because i didn't know i was going to have to--if i had--i would have been more specific about it, but i was in a position where i could have seen it, but we remarked after he left about what i had said and i got no comment about it from her, you know. mr. liebeler. all right, thank you very much and we will see you friday morning. mrs. whitworth. all right. testimony of mrs. lee harvey oswald, edith whitworth, and gertrude hunter the testimony of mrs. lee harvey oswald, edith whitworth, and gertrude hunter was taken at a.m., on july , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. present were june oswald and rachel oswald, children of mrs. lee harvey oswald; william a. mckenzie and henry baer, counsel for mrs. lee harvey oswald; peter paul gregory, interpreter; and forrest sorrels and john joe howlett, special agents of the u.s. secret service. [note.--the asterisk represents a response by marina oswald without assistance of the interpreter. all other responses shown for marina oswald were through the interpreter.] mr. liebeler. may the record show, marina, that you have previously been sworn as a witness when you appeared before the commission in washington? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. liebeler. and you will regard the testimony that you are going to give here this morning as a continuation of the testimony you gave to the commission, and i assume you will regard yourself as being under oath as you did before the commission? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. liebeler. am i correct in understanding that marina has indicated she will regard herself as being under a continuing oath? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. liebeler. the basic purpose for your presence here this morning relates to testimony that has been given by two ladies, mrs. whitworth and mrs. hunter, who are outside, that you were in a furniture store in irving, tex., in early november with your two children and with lee harvey oswald. mrs. oswald. [no response.] mr. liebeler. i understand that you had previously testified about this and have told the commission that you were not in the store at that time. we want these two ladies to have an opportunity to see you and have you see them, to see if your recollection can be refreshed or if they were mistaken. is that agreeable with you, marina? mrs. oswald. yes; i can remember--i'm sure, i never forget and the baby is just weeks. i would like to know under what circumstances these two ladies saw me at that particular time? mr. mckenzie. and furthermore, where the store is located? mr. liebeler. let the record show that mrs. whitworth and mrs. hunter have come into the room [reporter's note: : a.m.], and let the record further show that they have both previously testified that sometime in early november , they saw marina and the two children and lee oswald in a furniture store located on east irving boulevard in irving, tex. mrs. oswald. i don't remember the name of the street. mr. liebeler. now, i will ask mrs. whitworth, who was the operator of that store, the address of the store and to describe the store generally for marina and its name. mrs. whitworth. the store was known as the furniture mart. the name was clearly on it, and it was located at east irving boulevard. that's at the corner of jefferson and irving boulevard on the north side of the street and in the same block with the bank. in fact, the back of it was up to the bank & trust there and it looked like at one time it might have been a service station and we had changed it into a furniture store, and they would have seen more used furniture in it, because we had new and used furniture. this clear enough? mrs. oswald. i don't remember the names of the streets--that wouldn't be material to me. i wouldn't remember it. mr. liebeler. all right. mr. gregory. would you like for me to give the complete answer of this lady to her? mr. liebeler. yes. mrs. whitworth. that would be the main thoroughfare in irving. mr. gregory. that's the street across from the bank? mrs. whitworth. no; it would be in the same block with the irving bank & trust. mrs. oswald. the only thing i am interested in is whether mrs. whitworth actually knows me or not, whether this lady actually saw me or knows me or not. that's what i am interested in. mr. liebeler. let us ask mrs. whitworth to describe briefly the circumstances under which you say these people came in the store. mr. mckenzie. and the time of the day, establish the time of the day and the complete circumstances. mrs. whitworth. well, it would be more from the middle of the day until, you see, say o'clock in the afternoon or maybe o'clock in the afternoon. when they came in, and drove up to the front, and mr. oswald came in the store first. he came in and asked, you know, about this part of the gun and then he went back to the car, and after asking me about, you know, it--i said i didn't have the part--i didn't have the gun part that he wanted, he said, "you have furniture in here?" and i said, "yes." he said, "i am going to be needing some," and he went back to the car and took whatever he had back to the car, and then he came back in and she followed him and she had the baby in her arms. it was a tiny baby--he told me it was weeks old, and this little girl [indicating june oswald] was walking in front of mrs. oswald and she was whining a little bit and mrs. oswald was, you know, carrying the baby and we come back in and went to the extreme back of the store, and i showed them some bedroom suites and had to pull these beds out and mrs. oswald stood there and she never said anything, but mr. oswald and i talked, you know, about the furniture, and then we talked about the babies, but she turned and left before he did, you know, because i walked back up to the front of the store with him, because she was already at the front of the store by the time we turned and went up there, and it was a cool day and it was cool enough that you would have on a little wrap and this little girl, as well as i remember, had on some kind of a short sweater or coat, and mrs. oswald had on a short coat too, and she had her hair tied back. she doesn't look like she does today, because her face was fuller then and it might have been because she just had this baby then and still hadn't gone back like she was. this baby was just a tiny thing. i didn't see it, it was wrapped up in some kind of a blanket, but this little girl--it definitely was her. it seemed like her hair was a little darker but she did have on some kind of a cap. mr. liebeler. do you understand this? *mrs. oswald. i wonder if somebody was in car or not? mrs. whitworth. that, i wouldn't testify that there was anybody in the car with you, because i observed what happened in the store, you know. i mean, you impressed me in the store and not out of the store. i didn't notice, because too many people drove up. i thought your car was a two-tone car, either a ford or a plymouth--now--i don't know. i thought it was blue and white--i wouldn't, you know, swear to that. i mean, too many cars drove up out in front like that, but it was what happened on the inside of the store that i was more impressed with and remembered, and your actions and his, because she acted like she wasn't interested in what he said because she didn't exchange words or anything, but i did talk to him, and i know it was him and i know she was in there. she may not remember it, but if i was to see her today and seeing her that day and i was to meet her on the street, it would be hard for me to identify her. you know, she still has the features, but her face was round and she had her hair pulled back [indicating]. mr. gregory. you mean in a pony tail? mrs. whitworth. in a pony tail. *mrs. oswald. no; it wasn't that. mrs. whitworth. well, there was something tied around it--you had something tied around it, i mean, slicked back from her face. *mrs. oswald. i didn't wear this. mrs. whitworth. i called it a pony tail, but it was kind of pulled back to the back. *mrs. oswald. i had two pigtails. mrs. whitworth. well, she might have--it was tied back and whipped back from her face. her face was round then and she was pretty then--i'd say she was pretty. *mrs. oswald. thank you. mrs. whitworth. the little girl--i tried to talk to her and attract her attention, but she was whining all the time she was in there and she was trying to attend to this little girl and had this baby in her arms and the little girl walked out in front of her, you know, when they left the store. *mrs. oswald. just one time i was in the store? i do not remember that i was ever in a furniture store. that does not make a difference for me. i recall the time when i was in a store with mrs. ruth paine. mr. gregory. which store was it? mrs. oswald. in that store they were selling baby things and towels and i was looking for something for a child. mrs. whitworth. no; i didn't sell anything like that--mine was all furniture. *mrs. oswald. there was just one store like that. mrs. whitworth. but we went to the extreme back of the store and, as well as i remember, i had a used reddish maple bookcase headboard bed, you know, i was showing you. mrs. oswald. i was never in any furniture store. mrs. whitworth. well, she didn't act like she was, even that day, you know, she walked off. *mrs. oswald. you know, not because i want to say you are wrong, but i can't remember i was in a furniture store, especially when i talked with somebody. mr. liebeler. now, marina, you said you do remember one time that you were in a store with mrs. paine and with lee and with the children. do you remember how long you were in the store that time? *mrs. oswald. about minutes. mr. liebeler. and how long, mrs. whitworth, was she in the store this time that you are talking about? mrs. whitworth. i would say from to minutes. mr. liebeler. but you don't remember marina seeing any furniture in the store at that time? *mrs. oswald. no; this was a cafe on that side--on the left side and baby clothes on the right side, and a radio and that's all. mr. liebeler. do you remember what you went to that store for? *mrs. oswald. to buy junie pants--rubber pants. mr. liebeler. did you buy some clothes for june; do you remember ever seeing these ladies before, marina? *mrs. oswald. just this one [indicating mrs. hunter]. perhaps, now, i saw her, because there is a woman of that particular type, a lady like this out in richardson--i may have seen a lady like this in richardson. mr. liebeler. but you do remember seeing a woman that looked something like mrs. hunter, here, mrs. hunter being the woman in the blue dress? *mrs. oswald. i don't think that i saw her, but i saw a woman or women like her--not one, but many of that type. mr. liebeler. now, mrs. hunter, as you sit here and you look at these children and you look at marina, are you sure in your own mind that these were the people who were in the store that day? mrs. hunter. i have seen marina several times before the baby came--several times. she said she saw me--do you remember talking to a lady about getting help for you before your baby came? mrs. oswald. for housework? mrs. hunter. no; she was talking about the welfare of clothes for the baby before the baby came, but i don't know who she was. mr. liebeler. now, wait just a minute, mrs. hunter, you say you talked to marina about this? mrs. hunter. she was with another woman and this other woman didn't come around, and i couldn't understand too much of what she said, and she couldn't understand too much of what i said, and i says, "if you need help with this baby, we can get you help at parkland hospital." do you remember that? mr. liebeler. just a minute, would you describe the other woman? mrs. hunter. now, the other woman don't mean a thing to me. all i know, she was with this other woman, but i live on second street and it was down below me, four or five different streets and this woman, i believe, was going to see someone about fixing a tire or changing a tire. now, i couldn't tell you what the other woman had on because it was just curiosity to me why--that her couldn't speak like we could and was in this condition and i kept asking her where her husband was and i never did make her understand me and i finally asked her if they had separated [indicating hand signals]--and i did that way--with her, and she made me understand he was staying over in town, but then, i didn't know who she was or nothing about her. mr. liebeler. where did all this happen? mrs. hunter. let me see, it was in a filling station--how come me at the station--i don't know whether that's the day that we looked at a car that this man had for sale at the station or not. mr. liebeler. where do you think this happened, mrs. hunter? mrs. hunter. it was on the corner of sixth and hastings street--i know where the station was--i couldn't even tell you the name of the station, because we were looking at a car there. mr. liebeler. now, what were the circumstances under which you were in this station, mrs. hunter? mrs. hunter. now, i have never been there but about twice, but at this particular time, last july until right after christmas, we were looking just for a used pickup or a used car for my husband to haul his tools in. we have a used car at this time there was a car for sale there. *mrs. oswald. after christmas? mrs. hunter. what? *mrs. oswald. after christmas? mrs. hunter. no; i said we were looking for used cars, so that's bound to have been my purpose there because we do not trade with that man. do you know a driveway and a filling station and a washateria on sixth street? mrs. oswald. no; i don't remember irving. mrs. hunter. this was before--i would say it was in september or october. it was before--just a little while, i know, before your baby came, because i won't tell you the remark i made, but anyhow, i know it was pretty close--almost due time--you could tell from the way you were carrying the baby, it was almost time for the baby. *mrs. oswald. i can't remember her [indicating mrs. whitworth]. mr. liebeler. didn't you see this other woman at all, mrs. hunter? mrs. hunter. no; she got out and had her back to me and if i'm not badly mistaken the woman had on a dark dress, but what the woman looked like, it wasn't even dawning on me, because i wasn't even interested. the only thing i seen that she was very uncomfortable and what i thought she was saying was that she was going to have to have help when the baby comes. mr. mckenzie. excuse me, but i would like to ask her a question; may i? mr. liebeler. yes. mr. mckenzie. mrs. hunter, what is your full name, please? mrs. hunter. gertrude hunter. mr. mckenzie. what is your husband's name? mrs. hunter. john t. hunter. mr. mckenzie. do you work with mrs. whitworth there in the store? mrs. hunter. no; just visiting her. mr. mckenzie. you were not in the store on this particular occasion that mrs. whitworth has described; is that correct? mrs. hunter. yes; i was there. mr. mckenzie. you were there? mrs. hunter. yes. mr. mckenzie. and what were you doing in the store that morning or that day? mrs. hunter. we go to football games together and we were down discussing whether we was going to have, what do you call it, caravan cars or charter a bus, and it was after o'clock in the afternoon, because i never did leave the house only after . my daughter works at commercial title and she calls me before she goes back off of her lunch hour at o'clock. mr. liebeler. so, this was after o'clock and prior to the football weekend; is that correct? mrs. hunter. on wednesday or thursday--i won't say just which day. mr. liebeler. now, on that occasion when you were in the store with mrs. whitworth at the furniture mart, did mrs. oswald or her husband buy any clothes or anything of the sort? mrs. hunter. well, she went to talking about the cafe. it used to be a bus station and it has the counter and the chairs for the cafe. the only thing she had there was the candy, and there was some used clothes and a church or welfare or something had had them there, they had their used clothes there, and there were some shoes there. now, she might have thought she was in a cafe or a drygoods store. *mrs. oswald. no. mr. mckenzie. at that time i'm asking you about, did either mrs. oswald or her husband buy any clothes; do you recall? mrs. hunter. no; they didn't buy anything. mr. liebeler. you had seen mrs. oswald before; is that correct? mrs. hunter. yes; but i didn't know who she was until now--i do now--i would know her eyes. mr. mckenzie. of course, you have seen many pictures of her since then. mrs. hunter. no; i'll be honest with you, i have only seen her once on television and that was in washington, and day before yesterday i wanted to be sure that this woman had the long hair, and the way it looked there. now, i'm honest with him about that. i didn't watch the run of it on television. mr. mckenzie. by "him" you are referring to mr. liebeler here? mrs. hunter. well, i don't know what his name is. mr. liebeler. that's right. mr. mckenzie. now, on this occasion when she was in the store with the two children and her husband, that mrs. whitworth has described, did you notice the automobile that they came in? mrs. hunter. i sure did. mr. mckenzie. and was it in the same automobile you had seen her in before at the filling station? mrs. hunter. no. *mrs. oswald. not the same? not the same? mr. mckenzie. did you go outside and see the automobile? mrs. hunter. i was standing in the side door looking up and down the street while she had went with them to the back. now, i didn't hear her say nothing and i don't know whether she said something to the little girl, or what she said, but she did go "shhh." she could have said "shhh" or something, but i remember her making some kind of a remark to the little girl. mr. mckenzie. to quiet the little girl? mrs. hunter. yes. mr. mckenzie. now, at that time did you notice the automobile in front? mrs. hunter. can i tell him what i told you? mr. liebeler. yes. mrs. hunter. well, what i meant--i didn't want to do something that i shouldn't. i was looking for some friends of mine from houston that drove a two-tone blue and white ford--a --i think it was, and when this car drove up, i left a note on my mailbox when i left the house and i told them if they come while i was gone to come down to this place, because i would be there, or left her telephone number on the note too, and when they drove up---- mr. liebeler. who is "they" now? mrs. hunter. mr. and mrs. dominik from houston, and when this car drove up, i thought it was them and i just said, "well, my company has come," and that was it and when i seen he was getting out of the car i just seen then that it wasn't, and i just sat back down in the platform rocker there where i was sitting. it was a partition in the front part of the store and i was sitting right here in platform rocker and there was some tables and chairs over here and i had opened this side door. she had it shut and i had opened it. mr. mckenzie. did your friends from houston come while they were there? mrs. hunter. no; they never did come up until later on, and he come up in a truck--several weeks later. mr. mckenzie. was there anybody else in the automobile that drove up that they got out of? mrs. hunter. no; just her and him and the two children. now, i wasn't up close to the car. i was standing in the door and the car was parked over here something like this, and somebody could have been down in the floorboard of the car--i wouldn't say they wasn't. mr. mckenzie. did you see who was driving the automobile? mrs. hunter. he got under the steering wheel. *mrs. oswald. lee? mr. liebeler. and you saw him drive the car? mrs. hunter. i seen him at the steering wheel, under the steering wheel, and if there was someone else, now, in there, you couldn't see them. mr. liebeler. well, in any event, mr. oswald got behind the steering wheel of the car and he drove the car out of the parking lot in front of the building somewhere; isn't that right? *mrs. oswald. i have never seen lee drive the car in my lifetime. lee never drove a car with me or the children in it. the only time i saw him behind the wheel was when ruth paine taught him to drive the car, he was practicing parking the car when ruth paine was teaching him to drive. mr. liebeler. and that was all in front of mr. paine's house; wasn't it? *mrs. oswald. yes. i'm sure this lady is trying to tell the truth, but the only possible person who could have driven the car when we were in that store could have been mrs. ruth paine. she knows all the stores where we went because we never went there without her. mrs. hunter. well, you've got your privileges--you've got your privileges. mr. mckenzie. mrs. hunter, back in september or october when you were in the shell filling station and mrs. oswald and the little girl here, june, and another lady happened to be there--that was the occasion when your husband was looking for the pickup truck--did either mrs. oswald get out of the car or did the other lady get out of the automobile? mrs. hunter. she was standing beside the car, now, i don't even remember the baby being there--being in the car. mr. liebeler. but mrs. oswald was standing beside the car? mrs. hunter. standing beside the car. mr. mckenzie. and where was the other lady standing? mrs. hunter. well, she went either to the restroom or into the filling station. she wasn't out there--i never did say anything to this woman. mr. mckenzie. the other woman---- mrs. hunter. do you remember anyone saying anything to you about a salvation army woman? *mrs. oswald. salvation army woman? i don't know what the salvation army is. mrs. hunter. this woman was dressed and i told her i would get her, i would get her a contact. she dresses in these regular white uniforms most of the time? mrs. oswald. at the time this lady claims that she saw me, i was not interested in any help or i did not need any help for the baby from the standpoint of social help, because we already made all the preparations for the baby. mr. liebeler. mrs. hunter, when you say you saw these people at the service station, you indicated that the other lady got out of the car, and even though you didn't see her face, you did see her standing in the area of the service station; is that right? mrs. hunter. you see, we had drove up where he had some used cars and she was there by herself because---- mr. liebeler. when you say "she" you have to say who. mrs. hunter. mrs. oswald. mr. liebeler. mrs. oswald? mrs. hunter. and i don't know whether she had got out to go into the restroom or what, but that's where she seen me instead of in richardson. mr. liebeler. my question is, did you see the other lady standing in the area of the filling station? mrs. hunter. no; i didn't see the other woman--i really couldn't tell you what she looked like. i just seen a woman go into the filling station or into the restroom and i presumed it was who she was with, because she said--she didn't ask for any help and i couldn't understand her and she couldn't understand me, you see. mr. liebeler. now, mrs. hunter, i want to try and find out--you said you saw this other woman walk into the restroom? mrs. hunter. i seen a woman--i don't know whether it was the one that was driving the car she was in or not, because she was standing beside the car. mr. liebeler. that's what i'm trying to get to--was this a skinny woman, a fat woman, a tall or short woman--what did she look like as you saw her walk into the restroom? mrs. hunter. the woman, i don't believe she was quite as heavy as i am and a little bit taller. mr. liebeler. how tall are you? mrs. hunter. five feet two. mr. liebeler. and she's just a little bit taller than you? mrs. hunter. i would say this woman was taller than i am. mr. liebeler. how much? mrs. hunter. about feet . mr. liebeler. about feet or feet --how much do you think she weighed? mrs. hunter. i would say about . mr. liebeler. now, did you see anybody else around the automobile? mrs. hunter. no. mr. liebeler. what kind of car was it? mrs. hunter. when we got in our car and left she was still standing beside the car. mr. liebeler. mrs. oswald was? mrs. hunter. yes. mr. liebeler. what kind of car was it? mrs. hunter. well, now, i wouldn't say as to that. mr. liebeler. was it a convertible, was it a volkswagen, was it a station wagon, or was it an ordinary american-type car? mrs. hunter. it was just a car--but i wouldn't go back to it, because it didn't dawn on me for sure. mr. liebeler. was it a station wagon? mrs. hunter. no. mr. liebeler. now, you saw mrs. oswald, or who you think was mrs. oswald, in the station there that day before you saw her in the furniture mart; is that right? mrs. hunter. yes. mr. liebeler. now, when you saw her in the furniture mart, did you recognize her? mrs. hunter. no; it didn't dawn on me--i didn't think a thing in the world about it. *mrs. oswald. excuse me, do you remember how i was dressed and was i pregnant at that time? mrs. hunter. yes. *mrs. oswald. and what did i have on? mrs. hunter. all i know is you had on a jacket. *mrs. oswald. what color? mrs. hunter. it was pretty chilly--it was a rose or more of a--it wasn't red. *mrs. oswald. was it blue? mrs. hunter. it was more of a rose. *mrs. oswald. i had a rose short one. mr. liebeler. now, you testified before you had seen mrs. oswald several times. mrs. hunter. yes; but i didn't know who she was. mr. liebeler. tell us about the other times you saw her. mrs. hunter. i have seen her in minyards grocery store. mr. liebeler. what is that? mr. mckenzie. [spelling] m-i-n-y-a-r-d-s. mr. liebeler. where is that? mrs. hunter. on irving boulevard. *mrs. oswald. grocery store? mrs. hunter. and this drive-in grocery that i was talking about, if you remember there--i think i had seen her there. mr. liebeler. now, aside from the gas station and the furniture shop and the grocery store, did you ever see her any place else? mrs. hunter. well, just them things, then at once it dawns on me about her, but she had ribbons in here hair. *mrs. oswald. what did i have? mrs. hunter. she was wearing a pigtail or something--her hair was long, and i remember one side the string was hanging down longer and that was at the furniture store. mr. liebeler. you mean the pigtail? mrs. hunter. what i can remember about her was the sad expression in her face--she had a very, very sad expression in her face. mr. liebeler. was anybody else with mrs. oswald when you saw her in the grocery store? mrs. hunter. well, i didn't pay no attention to who she was with, or who was with her or nothing about it. i just remember her. mr. liebeler. you just remember her? *mrs. oswald. i never wore any ribbons or bows in the hair. maybe it was somebody just like me? mr. liebeler. how is it you remember seeing mrs. oswald when you have no recollection of who she was with or anything like that? mrs. hunter. well, her eyes--i would know her on the street by her eyes if i was to meet her. *mrs. oswald. everybody knows my eyes. mr. liebeler. what about you, mrs. whitworth, do you recognize these people as the people that were in your store that day? mrs. whitworth. well, like i say, she has changed, but i am definitely sure they were in there. mr. liebeler. now, as you sit here and look at these children who have been here this morning with mrs. oswald, do you recognize them? mrs. whitworth. they have grown, and according to their ages and all--they were there. mr. liebeler. do you have any doubt about that? mrs. whitworth. i don't have a doubt in the world but that they were there. i believe it might have been, if she could remember, probably about her, of course, the first time after she had this new baby over here, her husband told me--lee harvey oswald told me that the baby was weeks old and we discussed my grandchildren about the same age and they were boys. she probably didn't understand our discussion but we discussed these two children and my two grandchildren. *mrs. oswald. i remember lee exchanging conversations with a woman, but she was a younger woman and they were talking about the baby. mrs. whitworth. that was me, probably, but my hair might not be as gray as it is today and i probably have changed, too, but we discussed the babies and trading babies, you know, we was just joking, in fact, in fact i was, anyway, and he said he had hoped to have had a boy when he had the two girls, and we were hoping for a little granddaughter. we talked and she walked off. she never would--she never offered to show us the baby or anything and that's what impressed me more than anything else. otherwise, i probably would have never paid any attention to them being in the store or anything else, but it was that special talking to him and i was to expedite just about like he was on television one time. it was cool that day and you had to have on--it was probably the th, th, or th of november. *mrs. oswald. that sounds just about like lee. mr. liebeler. and marina made that answer when mrs. whitworth remarked that lee said that he hoped to have a boy and, isn't that right, marina? *mrs. oswald. no; i don't hear this. mr. liebeler. because he did want that? *mrs. oswald. yes. mr. liebeler. now, mrs. whitworth, did he do something unusual--did he drive up at the store and park the car and get out? mrs. whitworth. i wouldn't say what he did do, but i saw the car come up and i think it was his own car, and i think that it was his own car and i know the door that he came in and i know he went back to the car and she came in, but she didn't come in the same door as he did. whether he drove that car up there, i won't say he didn't and i won't say he drove it off. mr. liebeler. you told the fbi that he got into the car and drove it off going the wrong way down the street, as a matter of fact? mrs. whitworth. i think, really, that mrs. hunter and i had talked about it, but i'm not going to say that she described the car at all, but all i want to say is that they were in that store that day, you know, they've got four of them and i didn't see anyone else in the car and i didn't think you could do it, and if i did at that time, why it was maybe because i had talked to mrs. hunter previously about that, because the car did come up there to the gate and they would make a =u=-turn and go back down the way--back down that one way, and mrs. hunter would notice it, where i wouldn't pay too much attention about what happened every day. mr. liebeler. now, you don't recall whether he drove the car or not? mrs. whitworth. it has been a long time and i don't recall. mr. liebeler. did you tell me yesterday or the day before yesterday that you saw this car drive up in front and the man get out, and did it appear to you that he was driving the car? mrs. whitworth. i saw him get out of the car and come to the west door; absolutely. mr. liebeler. which side of the car did he get out from; do you remember? did you see anybody else in the car at all, besides this woman and the two children? mrs. whitworth. i didn't pay any attention at that time that they were in the car, you know, when they first drove up but i didn't know that they come in the car and they had to get out of a car to come in there; they wouldn't have walked up. mr. mckenzie. why do you say they wouldn't have walked up there, mrs. whitworth? mrs. whitworth. well, they would have had to have lived pretty close and around there and i had never seen them come in there before. mr. liebeler. did you know where they were living? mrs. whitworth. well, not until after all this happened--the assassination and everything--and they lived pretty close around there. i had never seen mrs. paine walk by there before. mr. liebeler. did you know where they were living? mrs. whitworth. well, i asked them when all this happened and everything. if they lived out where they did, it would have been too far from my store to have walked up there. mr. liebeler. you were under the impression at that time that they were living together; isn't that right? mrs. whitworth. well, yes; he told me they were living in an apartment, and i asked him. *mrs. oswald. living in an apartment? mrs. whitworth. yes; i said, "you are living in an apartment," and wanting to move out, you know, and he said, "yes." so, i just assumed when people come in wanting to buy furniture and they are going to need some, that they are either in an apartment fixing to move out, or need some--they are going to need some and they are fixing to move out, but he wasn't quite ready then--he said. mr. liebeler. did you specifically ask him or did he specifically tell you that they were living in an apartment together? mrs. whitworth. no; i asked him--yes. mr. liebeler. he told you that they were living in an apartment together? mrs. whitworth. yes. mr. liebeler. you have learned since that time that they weren't living together; isn't that right? mrs. whitworth. yes; i believe so. mr. mckenzie. do you recall in talking to this lady if she had a tooth missing in front? one or two teeth missing? mrs. whitworth. i don't recall that--all i noticed--she didn't even utter a word--i didn't notice it. mr. mckenzie. do you remember if she had a tooth or two missing? *mrs. oswald. you know me; you know me? mr. mckenzie. mrs. oswald has indicated to mrs. hunter that mrs. hunter had said she remembered talking to marina. now, what about you, mrs. hunter; do you remember whether she had any teeth missing? mrs. hunter. well, i don't remember anything about her teeth because she would have to almost move her lips, you know, if you didn't pay close attention, now, that was just a very few seconds with her at this station--very few. the only thing that i caught was right here [indicating]. mr. mckenzie. now, don't you think you would notice it if somebody had a tooth out in front of their mouth? mrs. hunter. not necessarily, because i don't pay no attention to nobody--only their eyes and their feet. mr. mckenzie. i don't have any more questions. mr. liebeler. marina, did you at any time go with lee and the children when lee had something with him wrapped in a brown sack that he took into a store? *mrs. oswald. no. mrs. whitworth. it would be about this long [indicating]. mr. liebeler. indicating about how long? mrs. whitworth. i would say about or inches. mrs. oswald. i would have noticed if he had had an object with him. mr. liebeler. now, mrs. whitworth, you testified that when this man came in the store he did have an object with him about inches long wrapped in brown paper; isn't that right? mrs. whitworth. yes. mr. liebeler. and you also testified that this man asked about a part for a gun; isn't that right? mrs. whitworth. yes. mr. liebeler. and you know he had some part of the gun wrapped in this package; didn't he? mrs. whitworth. yes. mr. liebeler. and you also testified that this man asked about a part for a gun; isn't that right? mrs. whitworth. yes. mr. liebeler. and you thought that he had some part of the gun wrapped in this package; isn't that right? mrs. whitworth. yes. mr. liebeler. do you understand that, mrs. oswald? mrs. oswald. even if he did, i would not have understood what he was saying because i simply did not know the language, but i don't recall him having any object in his hands such as that referred to here. mr. liebeler. at any time; is that correct? mrs. oswald. no; at no time. mr. mckenzie. she is saying he went back to the car and got this part? mr. liebeler. what were you saying, mrs. whitworth? mrs. whitworth. he went back to the car and took whatever he had in his hand--he must have put it in the car, because i never noticed any more; she came in, you know, but he came back in the store before she did, because she followed him in and in the store--i don't see why that she couldn't remember it, it's different, you know, from other stores that you would go in where you bought soft goods. mr. liebeler. now, you say he brought this package into the store? mrs. whitworth. yes. mr. liebeler. mr. mckenzie, do you wish to inquire as to this package? mr. mckenzie. mrs. whitworth, when this man whom you have identified as lee harvey oswald, whom you know now was lee harvey oswald, from his pictures in the paper, came into your store, you stated that he had a package in his hand about to inches long; is that correct? mrs. whitworth. no; i saw him. mr. mckenzie. i say, you had seen that and stated that he had such a package? mrs. whitworth. i saw him; yes. mr. mckenzie. how was the package wrapped? mrs. whitworth. loosely in brown paper and you know, it didn't have any strings on it, as far as i remember--it was loosely tied. mr. mckenzie. well, was it a package in a bag? mrs. whitworth. no; he held it with one hand. mr. mckenzie. he held it with one hand? mrs. whitworth. yes. mr. mckenzie. did it look like a piece of pipe or did it look like a gun stock, or did it look like a piece of wood or what did it look like that was in the package? mrs. whitworth. i didn't see it. mr. mckenzie. how big around was the package? mrs. whitworth. it wasn't large--i'd say it might have been this big [indicating]. mr. mckenzie. you are making a sign with your hands there, with both hands---- mrs. whitworth. what is that--about or inches in diameter? mr. mckenzie. all right. mrs. whitworth. and then it was some or inches long. mr. mckenzie. so, the package that he had was or inches in diameter and approximately inches long; is that right? mr. liebeler. fifteen to inches long. mrs. whitworth. that's right. mr. mckenzie. what did he say to you when he came into the store? mrs. whitworth. he asked me if i had this particular part, some particular part, but not knowing about guns, i didn't have it. i don't remember it, you know, what he asked for. mr. mckenzie. to the best of your recollection, if you will, state for the purpose of the record here exactly what he said to you? mrs. whitworth. well, he asked me if i had this part, whatever it was, pertaining to a gun. mr. mckenzie. and what part was it? mrs. whitworth. i don't know--because i don't know anything about guns. mr. mckenzie. can you state it in his words? mrs. whitworth. i cannot. mr. mckenzie. you cannot tell us exactly what he said, but this is just what your recollection is of what he said? mrs. whitworth. that's right. mr. mckenzie. and what did he say to you then--give us your best recollection. mr. liebeler. let me ask a question, if i may. mrs. whitworth, isn't it a fact that you told a newspaper reporter that came by your store shortly after this happened what that part was that he was looking for; a miss campbell or mrs. campbell? mrs. whitworth. no; i didn't. mrs. hunter and i discussed it afterwards, and i think that she might know more about guns and she said it was a plunger, but i'm not sure--i might have told them that i thought it was a plunger, but i don't remember. mr. mckenzie. and you did not tell the reporter what you thought it was; is that right? mrs. whitworth. no; i didn't--i don't believe i ever made the statement that i knew exactly what it was. mr. liebeler. well, you told the reporter that you thought it was a plunger; isn't that a fact? mrs. whitworth. i believe mrs. hunter said that. she talked to the same reporter--i don't know what it was, because i don't remember. mr. liebeler. did the reporter make a tape recording of the conversation? mrs. whitworth. the reporter made a tape recording of my conversation--part of it, i would say. mr. liebeler. did she ever give you a copy of that tape recording? mrs. whitworth. no. mr. mckenzie. did he tell you what the part that he was looking for was to be used with or for? mrs. whitworth. no; because i didn't ask him. mr. mckenzie. did he tell you that he was looking for a part for a gun? mrs. whitworth. well, it was for a gun, because he asked for it, you know, that part. he came in because i had a gunsmith sign on the street and there had been one there. mr. liebeler. did he tell you that? mrs. whitworth. no; he didn't tell me that. mr. liebeler. how did you know that he came in because you had a gunsmith sign on the door? mrs. whitworth. well, i presume that because he asked for a gun part. mr. liebeler. and what part did he ask for? mrs. whitworth. i don't know. mr. liebeler. how did you know it was a part for a gun? mrs. whitworth. well, i just knew it was--whatever he asked for was, you know, pertaining to a gun, but as far as what it was, i don't know. i didn't pay that much attention to it because i had people coming in every day asking for something for a gun. mr. liebeler. did he tell you it was a part for a gun? mrs. whitworth. i knew that it was at that time. mr. liebeler. did he tell you that it was? mrs. whitworth. that it was? mr. liebeler. yes. mrs. whitworth. no; he didn't tell me. mr. liebeler. did he mention guns? mrs. whitworth. we didn't talk about it. we didn't talk about it--when i told him i didn't have the gunsmith, that he had moved, that he was no longer there and when i told him we no longer had a gunsmith we didn't talk about what he wanted any more. mr. mckenzie. to the best of your recollection, and that's based on your conversation with mrs. hunter, the part that he asked for was a plunger? mrs. whitworth. well, to the best of my recollection it was, but i wouldn't say definitely that he asked for a plunger. mr. mckenzie. do you recognize that a plunger is a part of a gun? mrs. whitworth. i wouldn't unless somebody told me that it was. mr. mckenzie. well, you say you recognized the part that he asked for as being a part of a gun? mrs. whitworth. yes. mr. mckenzie. he didn't mention to you a gun part at that time, did he, or did he? mrs. whitworth. well, he asked in such a way that i knew he was seeking the gun shop and not the furniture store. mr. liebeler. was the word "gun" ever used? mrs. whitworth. yes; it was, because i told him the gunsmith had moved. mr. mckenzie. and what did he say then, please, ma'am? mrs. whitworth. he turned around and he looked at me. he was standing practically in the front or in the middle of the store and he turned and i had furniture all around me--dinette suites over on this side and there was living room furniture to this side, and in front of him there was living room furniture and bedroom furniture and he said, "you have furniture?" i said, "yes." he said, "i'm going to need some in about weeks," and i said, "all right, i'll be glad to show you some." he turns and walks out the door that he came in and took whatever he had in his hand back in the car and that's when mrs. oswald followed him back in and he got back in the store before she did. mr. mckenzie. did you hear them talking together? mrs. whitworth. i never did hear her utter one word. mr. mckenzie. did he say anything to her? mrs. whitworth. he never said anything to her other than he might have glanced at her and i thought that they were exchanging glances, you know. she didn't utter a word. mr. mckenzie. and he didn't utter a word to her? mrs. whitworth. not to her--but to me. mr. mckenzie. now, he said he was going to need some furniture in approximately weeks? mrs. whitworth. yes. mr. mckenzie. at that time did you ask him where he was living? mrs. whitworth. i asked him if he was living at an apartment and he said, "yes." mr. mckenzie. did he tell you where? mrs. whitworth. no. mr. mckenzie. did he tell you where he was moving to? mrs. whitworth. no; he hadn't got that place yet. mr. mckenzie. did he ask you if you delivered? mrs. whitworth. no; we didn't get that far along. mr. mckenzie. i see. he didn't like the piece of furniture that you showed to him, is that it? mrs. whitworth. i probably didn't have what he was looking for. we talked about not having it. mr. mckenzie. well, in any event, he didn't seek to buy any of the furniture that you showed him? mrs. whitworth. no. mr. mckenzie. did he state what he was looking for, did he tell you what he was looking for? mrs. whitworth. i asked him what kind of furniture that he was looking, and i suggested furnitures to him if he bought new furniture. i said, "do you like early american, or do you like danish modern?" and we exchanged those words and he never uttered what he liked or anything. he didn't say what he liked. mr. mckenzie. now, mrs. whitworth, there had been a gun shop in that particular location before you moved in with your furniture store? mrs. whitworth. no; i leased one corner of my store to a gunsmith. mr. mckenzie. and what was his name? mrs. whitworth. his name was warren graves. mr. liebeler. does he still operate a gun shop? mrs. whitworth. no; he doesn't. mr. liebeler. does he still live in the irving area? mrs. whitworth. he still lives in irving. mr. mckenzie. had you had any previous experience with guns? mrs. whitworth. other than just seeing guns in that little corner of the building, it seems like, and you know, hearing conversations on guns, but i knew nothing about guns. mr. mckenzie. well, did you know anything about the various nomenclature or the various parts of a gun? mrs. whitworth. no; i didn't. mr. mckenzie. but you did recognize that a plunger was a part of a gun when this man came in? mrs. whitworth. well, in the way that he asked for it, i knew that it was a gun part that he wanted because i didn't have it. mr. mckenzie. in what way did he ask for it, explain what you mean by that? mrs. whitworth. as well as i can remember, i told him we didn't have a gunsmith and he asked for this part and i don't remember really just what he asked for, but whatever it was, it led me to know that he wanted a gunsmith, which we didn't have. mr. mckenzie. were you in the front of the store when he came in? mrs. whitworth. yes; i was in the cash stand. mr. mckenzie. was mrs. hunter still sitting there on the platform chair? mrs. whitworth. she was sitting there in the front. mr. mckenzie. and how far away was she from you when he came in? mrs. whitworth. i was behind the stand, which i guess that was probably or feet in squares and i would have had to have gotten out of the stand and walked clear around and mrs. hunter, i imagine, was probably feet from me. mr. mckenzie. was she as close to you as i am now--just directly across, i mean? mrs. whitworth. yes. mr. mckenzie. about the same distance that we are apart now? mrs. whitworth. there was a counter between us. mr. mckenzie. and we are about feet apart now, aren't we? mrs. whitworth. yes. mr. mckenzie. when the man came in, was there anyone else in the store other than mrs. hunter and yourself? mrs. whitworth. i don't believe there was anyone in the store but mrs. hunter and myself. now, there was probably someone on the outside. mr. mckenzie. now, if i may direct this question to mrs. hunter; mrs. hunter, do you recall any of the conversation that you heard mrs. whitworth testify about this morning? mrs. hunter. well, when he drove up in the car and i thought it was my friends from houston and when i seen it wasn't, i sat back down in the chair and he went down to the door on that end of the building and went in and he asked her, he says, "where is your gunsmith?" i remember that and he had something--i won't say just what it was, because i wasn't particularly interested. i wasn't in her being down there at the time. she told him that the gunsmith was moved--that he wasn't there, and she showed him down the street where to go to. mr. mckenzie. where did she tell him to go? mrs. hunter. well, now, i don't know, but it was back down east on irving boulevard. mrs. whitworth. there was a gunsmith or a sports shop or something back down there. mrs. hunter. there was a sport shop down there where she showed him to go. i remember that much of it. mr. mckenzie. you said this man got out of the car and came to the other door, the door back to the back? mrs. whitworth. he came to the west door. mrs. hunter. i believe if i could draw a picture of it i could explain it better that way. [the witness proceeded to draw while testifying.] there's a partition right here and there are table and chairs right back in here, and over here is where her telephone is and where her table and there's a little counter right back in here, right back down this way, and right back here was the gunsmith where he had that leased, and all of this back here was furniture and this partition over here--these little tables and chairs over here--that looked kinda like a cafe where you would sit, at the tables and all. over here, all there was was used clothes and things. mr. mckenzie. where is the door? mrs. hunter. now, this is a door where i was sitting in the chair right here looking out and he come in by this door right over here and come up to where her counter was. i was sitting right here in the chair and she comes back out here and looks down this way and showed him which way to go to where this gunsmith was and when he goes back to the car and put what he had in his hand--he went back to the car for the purpose of that, and when he come back in, he come back in this way. when she got out with the children, she come in this door right here that i had got up and opened after i sat down there. mr. mckenzie. that would be the east door? mrs. hunter. well, yes; i guess so, and she walked on around and i just sat back down and i didn't pay her any attention or anything and they had gone back into the back here and she walked on along right along in here and the little girl was pulling, hanging on to her dress tail and she either told her to be quiet or said "shhh" or something like that, and that is the only thing that i heard the woman say. well, he goes back and goes back and gets in the car and she followed him out--she put the little girl in the car, then she got in the car, and he didn't offer to help her no way putting the babies in the car and he was talking to her and looking back down this way and he turned and when he pointed, i said, "you can't go back down that way, it's a one way street. you will have to go up here to the red light and turn to your left and come back around." mr. mckenzie. when you told him that, where were you standing? mrs. hunter. i was standing right in this door here. mr. mckenzie. right at the curb? mrs. hunter. no; the car was--let's say it was about like this, because there is a porch or a thing with a top over it, you know, and he catercornered down this way and i was right over here [indicating]. mr. mckenzie. now, at that time when you were standing in the doorway and he had gotten in the car and you told him he could not go that way, where was mrs. oswald sitting? mrs. hunter. she was in the car by him and the little girl was standing up in the seat between them and she had the tiny baby in her hands. mr. mckenzie. and was it a two-door automobile or a four-door automobile? mrs. hunter. well, i wouldn't say as to that, but i believe it was a two-door, but i wouldn't swear to it. mr. mckenzie. and he was behind the wheel? mrs. hunter. yes. mr. mckenzie. and she was sitting next to him? mrs. hunter. yes. mr. mckenzie. with the child between them? mrs. hunter. yes. mr. mckenzie. and there was no one else in the car other than the baby? mrs. hunter. if it was, they was down in the floorboard of the car and when he started out, he pulled out back that way, and i said, "don't go back that way, it's a one-way street." i said, "go down to the red light." mr. mckenzie. what did he say then? mrs. hunter. he didn't say anything; he didn't thank me nor nothing. mr. liebeler. but from where you were standing you could see him drive the automobile out into irving boulevard, going down to the next red light where he made a turn and drove out of sight; isn't that right? mrs. hunter. well, he went down irving boulevard--i told him to go to the red light, but she wasn't interested in what he was going to buy at all. mr. liebeler. in any event, you saw them drive out of the area? mrs. hunter. yes; i sure did. mr. liebeler. and they were driving west? mrs. hunter. i'll stake my life on that, that's how positive i am to it. mr. liebeler. he was driving the right way down the street? mrs. hunter. yes. mr. liebeler. could this car have been an oldsmobile? mrs. hunter. no, sir; it was a ford--it was just like the one that my friends had in houston. mr. liebeler. you are sure it wasn't a foreign car of any kind? mrs. hunter. oh, no; no. mr. liebeler. it was a ford? mrs. hunter. it was a --i think it was a ford instead of a . mr. mckenzie. blue and white? mrs. hunter. blue and white--yes, sir. mr. mckenzie. blue on the bottom and white on the top? mrs. hunter. yes, sir; i think i've got a picture of the car that my friends--the one that i was waiting for. could i ask her a question? [addressing marina oswald.] don't you have a rinse on your hair now? *mrs. oswald. a rinse--yes. my hair is dark--not too dark. mrs. hunter. a dirty blonde. *mrs. oswald. well, thank you. mrs. hunter. like his [indicating mr. liebeler]. mr. mckenzie. i don't have any more questions. mrs. whitworth, we certainly do thank you and mrs. hunter, we certainly do thank you very much. mrs. hunter. how soon are you going to be through with us--the reason i want to know--i am going to be out of town next week. [addressing marina oswald.] it's nice i met you in person now and your babies are very sweet. (at this point mrs. whitworth and mrs. hunter left the hearing room.) mr. mckenzie. marina, do you remember a blue and white car? *mrs. oswald. i don't know--what kind of car did mrs. paine have? mr. mckenzie. do you know what kind of car mr. paine had? *mrs. oswald. no; i don't. mr. mckenzie. what kind of car did mrs. paine have? *mrs. oswald. i don't know that either, but all the time mrs. paine, she take me to the store. mr. mckenzie. mr. gregory, what do you do in fort worth? mr. gregory. i am a petroleum engineer. mr. mckenzie. and are you on your own over there? mr. gregory. well, half of my time is my own and the other half of my time is with a company on salary, and i am chairman of an engineering committee. mr. liebeler. i believe you have previously testified, marina, that the only time lee came up to the paine's, except on the weekends, in irving, was on thursday night, november , ? *mrs. oswald. yes; he was all the time there on weekends for the th or the d of november or september? mr. liebeler. yes; i was trying to figure out what day in the week that he was there when you all were supposed to have been in this store--it would be wednesday or thursday, but lee was never in irving on wednesday or thursday at any time; is that right. mrs. oswald. just one time when he came to see me the night before the assassination. mr. liebeler. you are absolutely sure about that? *mrs. oswald. oh, sure, if you don't believe me, ask mrs. paine. you know, if he has a job--maybe--he don't have a job then? mr. mckenzie. at the time when he didn't have a job, did he come? *mrs. oswald. november he had a job. mr. mckenzie. but when he didn't have a job, did he come out there during the week other than weekends. *mrs. oswald. he spent days on one occasion during the week when he had no job. *mrs. oswald. he had job at that time in november. mr. mckenzie. now, before rachel was born, did he come during the week? *mrs. oswald. yes; i remember that only once he came--only once before rachel was born during the week. mr. mckenzie. after rachel was born at parkland hospital, did he come during the week up until the time he got a job? *mrs. oswald. no. mr. liebeler. he didn't come to irving during the week at any time after rachel was born, as a matter of fact, except on thursday night? *mrs. oswald. rachel was born either saturday night or sunday. mr. liebeler. october the th? *mrs. oswald. when rachel was born? mr. gregory. she wants to say what day of the week--it was either the th or th of october, but she wants to know the day of the week. mr. liebeler. sunday. *mrs. oswald. he was at home the weekend before rachel was born. he sent me to the hospital sunday night at o'clock. *mrs. oswald. well, he go working the next morning and he come to see ruth paine and she take him to the hospital to see me and baby and he spent the night in her house. mr. liebeler. what day did lee come to see you in the hospital, do you remember? *mrs. oswald. monday. mr. liebeler. and on monday night he stayed at ruth paine's house; is that right? *mrs. oswald. yes. mr. liebeler. and then you went home the next morning? *mrs. oswald. yes; to ruth paine's. lee was at work and ruth paine take me from the hospital. mr. mckenzie. you were in the hospital sunday, monday, and left tuesday? *mrs. oswald. no; i was just sunday night--i was one and a half days-- hours or hours or something like that. mr. liebeler. so, that on monday, october , lee came to irving after work? *mrs. oswald. yes. mr. liebeler. and came to the hospital to see you with mrs. paine? *mrs. oswald. with mrs. paine. mr. liebeler. and stayed at mrs. paine's house that night and went back to work on tuesday morning? *mrs. oswald. yes. mr. liebeler. and he did not come to the hospital at any other time or to take you home; is that right? *mrs. oswald. yes. mr. liebeler. after rachel was born and after lee had been there on monday to see you, did he come back to irving at any time during the week except the night before the assassination? mrs. oswald. no; he came to irving only the weekends--only on weekends. mr. liebeler. now, before the time that rachel was born, you said that he came to irving during the week and spent days before he got his job; was that just after he came back from mexico? mrs. oswald. he spent day in irving after he came back from mexico, and the following day he went to look for work and he was looking for work all week long and returned to irving on saturday. mr. liebeler. did he come to work during the week at any time after he got his job and up until rachel was born, except on weekends? mrs. oswald. as i remember--not. mr. liebeler. let's take a short recess for lunch, and we will resume at : p.m. (whereupon, at : p.m., the proceeding was recessed.) testimony of mrs. lee harvey oswald resumed the proceeding was reconvened at : p.m. mr. liebeler. you previously told the commission that lee oswald prepared a notebook in which he kept plans and notes about his attack on general walker; is that right? mrs. oswald. i saw this book only after the attempt on walker's life. he burned it or disposed of it. mr. liebeler. tell me when you first saw the notebook? *mrs. oswald. three days after this happened. mr. liebeler. you saw the notebook days after it had happened? *mrs. oswald. i think so. mr. liebeler. how did you come to see it then? mrs. oswald. when he was destroying it. mr. liebeler. is that the only time you ever saw it? mrs. oswald. i saw on several occasions that he was writing something in the book, but he was hiding it from me and he was locking it in his room. mr. liebeler. did he actually lock the door to his room when he left the apartment? mrs. oswald. the door to his room could be locked only from the inside and he was locking the door when he was writing in the book, otherwise, he was hiding it in some secret place and he warned me not to mess around and look around his things. he asked me not to go into his room and look around. mr. liebeler. you saw him writing in this book before the night that he shot at general walker? *mrs. oswald. not before the night. mr. mckenzie. after? *mrs. oswald. no; not before-- month before, but not every day, you know, sometimes. i saw him writing on several occasions in that book prior to the attempt on walker's life, only i did not know what he was writing. mr. liebeler. even though you could have gone into this room to look at the book, you did not do so, because lee had told you not to; is that correct? mrs. oswald. yes; he forbade me looking around in his room, and so i did not see the book or look at it. mr. liebeler. but days after he shot at general walker, you saw him destroy the book; is that correct? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. liebeler. how did he destroy it? mrs. oswald. he burned it. mr. liebeler. where? mrs. oswald. in the apartment house on neeley. mr. liebeler. where in the apartment? mrs. oswald. he burned it with matches over a wash bowl in the bathroom. mr. liebeler. and you first became aware of this when you smelled it burning; is that correct? mrs. oswald. i did not see the book, but i saw him writing in this book several times, but after he burns the book he told me what was in that book and he showed me several photographs. before he burned the book, he showed me several photographs that were in the book. i asked him what the pictures were and he said, "well, this one is the picture of the house of general walker's--his residence." mr. liebeler. and that picture was pasted in the notebook; is that right? mrs. oswald. no; it was loose in the book--i really don't remember. mr. mckenzie. establish what kind of book it was and the size of it. *mrs. oswald. the size--it looked like this size of paper. mr. liebeler. it was a book something like the reporter is using? *mrs. oswald. no; a legal size paper--it was a legal size notebook--this size. mr. liebeler. so, the notebook was about the same size as a legal size pad; is that right? *mrs. oswald [nodding head for an affirmative reply]. mr. liebeler. did you say anything to lee when you saw him destroying this book about why he prepared it and why he left it there in the apartment when he went to shoot general walker? mrs. oswald. no; i did not. no; i never asked him why he left it in the apartment, why he left his book in the apartment while he went to shoot general walker. i did not ask him why he left it in the apartment. i asked him what for was he making all these entries in the book and he answered that he wanted to leave a complete record so that all the details would be in it. he told me that these entries consisted of the description of the house of general walker, the distances, the location, and the distribution of windows in it. mr. liebeler. what did he want to leave this record for? mrs. oswald. all these details--all these records, that he was writing it either for his own use so that he would know what to do when the time came to shoot general walker. i am guessing that perhaps he did it to appear to be a brave man in case he were arrested, but that is my supposition. i was so afraid after this attempt on walker's life that the police might come to the house. i was afraid that there would be evidence in the house such as this book. mr. liebeler. did you talk to lee about that? mrs. oswald. oh, yes. mr. liebeler. what did you say and what did he say? *mrs. oswald. what did i say? mr. liebeler. and what did he say? *mrs. oswald. and what did he say? mr. liebeler. both. mrs. oswald. i told him that it is best not to have this kind of stuff in the house--this book. mr. liebeler. when did you tell him that? mrs. oswald. at the time he was destroying it--he showed me this book after this attempt on walker's life, and i suggested to him that it would be awfully bad to keep a thing like that in the house. mr. liebeler. when did he first show it to you? mrs. oswald. three days after the attempt-- days after this attempt, he took the rifle from the house, took it somewhere and buried it. mr. liebeler. three days after the attempt? mrs. oswald. yes, yes. mr. liebeler. so that he actually took the rifle out of the house and took it away and hid it somewhere? *mrs. oswald. yes. mrs. oswald. no; the day lee shot at walker, he buried the rifle because when he came home and told me that he shot at general walker and i asked him where the rifle was and he said he buried it. mr. liebeler. he shot at general walker on april , which was on wednesday. *mrs. oswald. wednesday? mr. liebeler. yes; it was on wednesday. mrs. oswald. as i remember, it was the weekend--saturday or sunday when lee brought the rifle back home. mr. liebeler. what weekend following the time he shot at general walker? *mrs. oswald. the same weekend of the same week. mr. liebeler. had he destroyed the notebook before he brought the rifle back? mrs. oswald. no. mr. liebeler. how long after he brought the rifle back did he destroy he book? mrs. oswald. he destroyed the book approximately an hour after he brought the rifle home. mr. liebeler. after he brought the rifle home, then, he showed you the book? *mrs. oswald. yes. mr. liebeler. and you said it was not a good idea to keep this book? *mrs. oswald. yes. mr. liebeler. and then he burned the book? *mrs. oswald. yes. mr. liebeler. did you ask him why he had not destroyed the book before he actually went to shoot general walker? mrs. oswald. it never came to me, myself, to ask him that question. mr. liebeler. did you see him take the pictures, the photographs, out of the book when he destroyed it? mrs. oswald. when i saw him burning the book--i'm not positive that he burned the photographs or not with the book. he retained the negatives and he preserved either the photographs themselves or the negatives. i know that they have the photographs and i don't know whether they got the originals or whether they made them from the negatives. mr. mckenzie. now, when you say "they," marina, who do you mean by "they?" mrs. oswald. fbi, secret service, and the president's commission. mr. liebeler. i show you commission exhibit no. , which is a copy of one of the photographs that was found among these effects after the assassination. *mrs. oswald. yes. mr. liebeler. does that appear to be one of the photographs about which you were speaking? *mrs. oswald. yes; that's one. mr. liebeler. are you absolutely sure about that? *mrs. oswald. no; i don't remember when lee showed me the picture that it was this. mrs. oswald. when i was first shown this picture, i remember that there was a license plate number on this car. mr. liebeler. when lee showed you the picture, there was a license plate number on the car? *mrs. oswald. yes. mr. liebeler. as shown in commission exhibit no. ; is that right? *mrs. oswald. yes. mr. liebeler. when you look at this picture you see that there is a black mark on the back of this, do you know what makes that black mark? *mrs. oswald. no; but i think when the commission showed me this picture the number was there. mr. mckenzie. license plate? mrs. oswald. i would have remembered this black spot if it were there at the time the commission showed me this, or the fbi. when the fbi first showed me this photograph i remember that the license plate, the number of the license plate was on this car, was on the photograph. *mrs. oswald. it had the white and black numbers. there was no black spot that i see on it now. when lee showed me this photograph there was the number on the license plate on this picture. i would have remembered it if there were a black spot on the back of the car where the license plate would be. mr. liebeler. the original of this picture, the actual photograph, has a hole through it. that's what makes this black spot. *mrs. oswald. this is from the negative? mr. gregory. this picture was made from the original photograph, rather than from a negative? mr. liebeler. yes; it's simply a picture of a picture. mrs. oswald. when the fbi and lee showed me this particular picture---- *mrs. oswald. not this big size. mrs. oswald. this photograph--it was a smaller size. mr. liebeler. yes. mrs. oswald. there was a license plate on this car. mr. liebeler. do you remember that very clearly? mrs. oswald. when lee showed it to me, i remember very distinctly that there was a license plate on this car. when this business about general walker came up i would have remembered this black spot. mr. liebeler. or the hole? mrs. oswald. or the hole in the original--i would have remembered it. mr. liebeler. and you remember, then, that the license plate was actually on that car when you saw the picture? mrs. oswald. this black spot is so striking i would have remembered it if it were on the photograph that lee showed me or the fbi. mr. liebeler. let's address ourselves also, not just to the black spot but to the possibility that they may have shown you the actual original photograph on which there is no black spot, but which has a hole right through the photograph. mrs. oswald. there was no hole in the original when they showed it to me--i'm positive of it. mr. mckenzie. all right, let me ask her a question. mrs. oswald. this is the first time i saw a black spot or have heard about a hole in the original photograph. *mrs. oswald. why does the commission not ask me about this? mr. mckenzie. well, the commission is asking you about it now, because mr. liebeler represents the commission. *mrs. oswald. i know it. mr. mckenzie. let me ask you--when lee showed you this picture, which is commission exhibit no. , had it been folded over? *mrs. oswald. no. mr. mckenzie. at that time did the car that appears in the picture, did it have a hole in the picture? mrs. oswald. no. mr. mckenzie. when the fbi or the secret service showed you this picture, had it been folded? *mrs. oswald. no. mr. mckenzie. who showed you the picture--the fbi or the secret service or the commission? *mrs. oswald. the fbi first and then the commission. mr. mckenzie. now, at the time the commission showed you the picture in washington, was there a hole shown in the picture where the car's license plate would be? *mrs. oswald. no; i don't know what happened to this picture, because when the commission showed me the picture there was not this spot here. mrs. oswald. if there was a hole, i would have asked them right away why that hole is there or the black spot. mr. mckenzie. off the record, please. (discussion between mr. mckenzie and mr. liebeler to the effect that the picture might have been creased in the process of making a print from the original photograph.) mr. mckenzie. one more question--is this the first time that you have seen the picture when there was a black spot in the back of the automobile? *mrs. oswald. yes; the first time. mr. liebeler. have you ever seen a picture like this that had a hole in it? *mrs. oswald. no. mr. liebeler. do you think of anything else about this walker incident that you haven't already told the commission that you think we should know that you can remember? mrs. oswald. i think i have told all i know about it--i can't remember anything else now. mr. liebeler. did it seem strange to you at the time, marina, that lee did make these careful plans, take pictures, and write it up in a notebook, and then when he went out to shoot at general walker he left all that incriminating evidence right in the house so that if he had ever been stopped and questioned and if that notebook had been found, it would have clearly indicated that he was the one that shot at general walker? mrs. oswald. he was such a person that nothing seems peculiar to me for what he did. i had so many surprises from him that nothing surprised me. he may have wished to appear such a brave man or something. mr. liebeler. did you ever have the feeling that he really wanted to be caught in connection with the walker affair? mrs. oswald. i don't know how to answer that--maybe yes and maybe no. i couldn't read his mind. mr. liebeler. do you think that the picture that he asked you to take when he was holding the rifle and the newspapers, and that he then autographed for june, do you think that was connected with the walker thing at all? mrs. oswald. i think so, because it happened just before he went to shoot general walker. then, i asked him why he was taking this silly picture and he answered that he simply wanted to send it to the newspaper. mr. liebeler. the militant? *mrs. oswald. the militant. mrs. oswald. i didn't attach any significance to what he said at the time, but he added, "that maybe some day june will remember me." he must have had something in his mind--some grandiose plans. mr. liebeler. you told the commission that in november , you stayed with anna meller and with mrs. ford for weeks? *mrs. oswald. yes; week. mr. liebeler. one week with each person? *mrs. oswald. i think maybe i was days at anna meller's house--yes. mr. liebeler. how long do you think you were with them altogether? *mrs. oswald. one week or days. mr. liebeler. now, you also told us that you went to anna meller's in a taxicab? *mrs. oswald. yes. mr. liebeler. were you separated from lee at any other time in the fall of except this time? mrs. oswald. the only time i was separated from lee, not because we quarreled, but because i lived with elena hall in fort worth. mr. liebeler. now, you went to anna meller's one night in a taxicab? *mrs. oswald. yes. mr. liebeler. did you bring any of the things for the baby, the furniture or your clothes or things like that to anna meller's? *mrs. oswald. no. mr. liebeler. at no time? *mrs. oswald. no; i just take baby and bottle. mr. liebeler. what about the next day, did you get anything over to the meller's house the next day? *mrs. oswald. no. mrs. oswald. no; after a couple of days anna meller went and bought some diapers for the baby, then, i wanted to take my things away from lee and george de mohrenschildt took me in his car and we got the things from the house. mr. liebeler. where did you take the things then? mrs. oswald. to anna meller's house. mr. liebeler. how long did you stay at anna meller's house before mohrenschildt brought the things there? *mrs. oswald. two or three days. mr. liebeler. and how long did you stay at anna meller's after de mohrenschildt brought your things there and before you went to mrs. ford's? *mrs. oswald. two more days. mr. liebeler. when de mohrenschildt came and took these things, they filled up his whole car almost, didn't they? there were quite a lot of things? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. liebeler. did you take these things from anna meller's over to the fords' house? mrs. oswald. only the bare necessities. mr. liebeler. what did you do with the other things that you had brought to anna meller's? mrs. oswald. they remained at anna meller's. mr. liebeler. who took the things from meller's to ford's? mrs. oswald. i don't remember. mr. liebeler. was it george de mohrenschildt? *mrs. oswald. no. mr. liebeler. was it mr. ford or mrs. ford? *mrs. oswald. i don't remember. mr. liebeler. do you remember what day it was that de mohrenschildt moved these things for you, what day of the week? mrs. oswald. the weekend--probably sunday. mr. liebeler. what day did you first go to anna meller's; do you remember? mrs. oswald. i don't remember. *mrs. oswald. about days before. mr. liebeler. did lee know where you went the night you left him? *mrs. oswald. no. mr. liebeler. when did he first find out where you were? mrs. oswald. george de mohrenschildt knew that i was at anna meller's and he telephoned lee, but he did not tell lee where i was. he asked him to come to his house where i would also be at the time so that we could discuss the things. mr. liebeler. the day you went to take the things to anna meller's, de mohrenschildt went to your apartment in his car; is that right? *mrs. oswald. yes. mr. liebeler. who was with him? *mrs. oswald. his wife. mr. liebeler. were you with him? *mrs. oswald. yes. mr. liebeler. so, that you and mrs. de mohrenschildt and george de mohrenschildt came in the car out to the apartment? *mrs. oswald. yes. mr. liebeler. and got these other things? *mrs. oswald. yes. mr. liebeler. and left? *mrs. oswald. yes. mr. liebeler. was lee there when you came? *mrs. oswald. yes. mr. liebeler. what happened when the three of you came to the apartment? mrs. oswald. nothing happened except he was very angry and i took things. mr. liebeler. what did he say? *mrs. oswald. he did not want me to leave. mr. liebeler. what did he say? *mrs. oswald. i don't remember. mr. liebeler. did he talk to de mohrenschildt? mrs. oswald. i was collecting things, so i don't know what transpired--i was busy. lee was helping me to gather the things, because he said he didn't want anything--to take the whole works. mr. liebeler. do you remember that lee first said that he was going to tear your dresses up and break all the baby things if you left and went away? *mrs. oswald. no; maybe that's george de mohrenschildt's joke. mr. liebeler. that's what george de mohrenschildt told the commission. *mrs. oswald. i know it. mr. liebeler. i don't think he meant it as a joke when he told it. *mrs. oswald. i don't know. mrs. oswald. maybe lee said that to george de mohrenschildt. i do not know whether lee said that to george de mohrenschildt or not. i was busy gathering the things. mr. liebeler. did there appear to be an argument or a discussion between lee and de mohrenschildt at that time? mrs. oswald. i don't think so--perhaps they were speaking together--talking english and i didn't understand them. mr. liebeler. how would they usually talk to each other--in russian or in english? mrs. oswald. both russian and english. mr. liebeler. did george bouhe have anything to do with your leaving lee this time? mrs. oswald. george bouhe told me that if i wanted to leave lee, he would help me at first, provided i would not go back to lee. bouhe did not interfere into my and lee's affairs, but he wanted to know if i wanted to leave him permanently, he would help me. he told me that if i wanted to leave him for good, then he would help me out, but not if i would go back to him because the second time nobody would help me. mr. liebeler. now, in fact, you did later go back to lee; didn't you? mrs. oswald. yes; he's my husband. mr. liebeler. and it is also a fact that when you did, george bouhe was displeased--unhappy? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. liebeler. and in fact he even asked you to give back to him the dictionary that he had given you; didn't he? mrs. oswald. yes. mr. liebeler. and he helped you no more after that? mrs. oswald. that's correct. mr. liebeler. george de mohrenschildt recalls this sunday morning differently--he said that he came there with his wife and that you were still at the apartment with lee, and that he and his wife came in and told lee that they were going to take you away because he had been beating you in the past, and that he convinced you to leave and that you all left then that sunday morning and he took you over to meller's. he does not say you had previously gone to meller's. mrs. oswald. that's not so. i was not at the apartment with lee. i came that sunday with the de mohrenschildts to the apartment. i was at anna meller's and george de mohrenschildt told me to be at his house at a certain hour, o'clock, or sometime, and that lee will come to his house, and anna meller took me. george bouhe came to anna meller's and took me to george de mohrenschildt's house and lee came to de mohrenschildt's house in a bus. lee came to de mohrenschildt's house on a bus. mr. liebeler. was this the same sunday? mrs. oswald. that same sunday. mr. mckenzie. later in the day? mrs. oswald. ten o'clock or eleven. mr. mckenzie. and before you went to the apartment? *mrs. oswald. yes. mr. mckenzie. did lee and mrs. de mohrenschildt and george de mohrenschildt go to the apartment together in george de mohrenschildt's car? mrs. oswald. i do not remember right now whether lee left after this confrontation at de mohrenschildt's house, whether lee left first or whether we all left de mohrenschildt's house together, but i do remember distinctly that i went in the car with george de mohrenschildt and his wife. i did not go with lee and so it is impossible that they came later. mr. liebeler. what happened at de mohrenschildt's house this morning--what was said there? mrs. oswald. de mohrenschildt was telling lee that that was not the way to treat his wife and lee begged me to stay with him. mr. liebeler. was de mohrenschildt's wife there at this time? *mrs. oswald. yes. mr. liebeler. how did the meeting at de mohrenschildt's house end; do you remember? mrs. oswald. i did not agree to go back with lee and either lee left by the bus first, or, i don't remember it clearly what happened. *mrs. oswald. no; i don't know what happened--i don't remember if lee goes with us or if he goes first. mr. liebeler. but you do remember that lee was at the apartment on elsbeth street when you went there to get the clothes and things for the baby? *mrs. oswald. yes. mr. liebeler. when you came there, did he just help you load the things up? *mrs. oswald. yes. mr. liebeler. he didn't seem to be angry about anything? *mrs. oswald. yes; he was angry. that's why he helped me. mr. liebeler. how did you come to go back to lee, and that was when he came out to anna ray's and met you there? mrs. oswald. he telephoned me several times begging me to return and he came to anna ray's and he cried and you know a woman's heart--i went back to him. he said he didn't care to live if i did not return. mr. liebeler. who paid the taxi fare when you went over to anna meller's the first time? *mrs. oswald. the first time--anna meller. mr. liebeler. the commission has been advised that some time in the spring of , you, yourself, either threatened to or actually tried to commit suicide. can you tell us about that? mrs. oswald. do i have the right now not to discuss that? mr. liebeler. if you don't want to discuss that, certainly, but i really would like to have lee's reaction to the whole thing. but if you don't want to tell us about it--all right. mrs. oswald. at my attempt at suicide, lee struck me in the face and told me to go to bed and that i should never attempt to do that--only foolish people would do it. mr. liebeler. did you tell him that you were going to do it, or did you actually try? mrs. oswald. no; i didn't tell him, but i tried. mr. liebeler. but you don't want to discuss it any further? *mrs. oswald. no. mr. liebeler. do you have a copy of lee's diary? *mrs. oswald. yes;--i have that now. mr. liebeler. did you have a copy of the diary before it was printed in the dallas morning news? *mrs. oswald. no. mr. mckenzie. you might also ask her if i had a copy of it. mr. liebeler. do you know whether or not mr. mckenzie had a copy of the diary? *mrs. oswald. i don't know--ask him. i don't know what you have in your office--i'm sorry. mr. mckenzie. let the record show that mr. mckenzie does not have a copy of the diary, and that mrs. oswald states she did not have a copy of the diary prior to its being published by the dallas morning news, and for the purposes of the record the life magazine and time, inc., first gave me a copy of the diary, and i in turn furnished a copy of the diary to mrs. oswald from the copy that was given to me by time, inc. mr. liebeler. so, that now, you do have a copy of the diary; is this correct? *mrs. oswald. yes. mr. liebeler. and it was given to you by mr. mckenzie after he got it from time-life, inc.? *mrs. oswald. yes. mr. liebeler. did you make an arrangement with life magazine to give them permission to publish the diary? mrs. oswald. yes; after it has been published in the newspapers. i, myself, would not have been willing for it to be published in the first place. mr. liebeler. did life magazine pay you anything for the privilege of publishing the diary? *mrs. oswald. yes; $ , . i would like to know where the dallas morning news got the diary. mr. liebeler. i can tell you this much, mrs. oswald, that the dallas morning news did not get a copy of the diary from the commission. other than that, i can't say anything. mrs. oswald. if it is possible, i would like to determine where they got it. mr. liebeler. when did you enter into this arrangement with life magazine and how did it come about, mrs. oswald; will you tell us? mrs. oswald. i don't remember what day---- mr. mckenzie. it was after it was published in the dallas morning news. mr. liebeler. am i correct in stating that the transaction was negotiated between representatives of life magazine and your attorney, mr. william a. mckenzie? an attorney here in dallas? *mrs. oswald. yes. mr. liebeler. i have no more questions. *mrs. oswald. thank you. mr. mckenzie. i have a couple of questions. marina, there is a difference, is there not, in your mind between a marxist and a communist? *mrs. oswald. what? mrs. oswald. i never was interested in this so i don't know--it makes me no difference. mr. mckenzie. a communist ordinarily is known as a party member; is that correct? mrs. oswald. a communist does not necessarily have to be a member of the party. people that believe in communism do not necessarily have a party card. the fact is that a communist is not necessarily a member of the party. he may be a communist by his choice but not necessarily a member of the party. mr. mckenzie. well, lee was a marxist by his choice; is that correct? mrs. oswald. i don't know what he thought. mr. mckenzie. that's all. mrs. oswald. i think he was just a sick person. he didn't know himself what he was. mr. liebeler. mrs. oswald, as we discussed this morning, we want to go out to irving and all look at the store and see if it refreshes your recollection as to whether or not you were there, so at this time we will adjourn the deposition, to be resumed out at the location of this store in irving, if that is agreeable with counsel for mrs. oswald. mr. mckenzie. it is agreeable. (at this point the proceedings of this deposition were adjourned and messrs. liebeler and mckenzie, marina oswald, the reporter, odell oliver, and secret service agents john joe howlett and forrest sorrels in charge of the dallas secret service office traveled to irving, walked through the store heretofore referred to, departed the same and while standing in front of the store the following proceedings were had:) mr. liebeler. let the record show that we are resuming the deposition in front of east irving boulevard, irving, tex., and the record will indicate that mr. mckenzie and mrs. oswald, mr. sorrels and mr. howlett, the court reporter and i walked inside of the building here at east irving boulevard and walked around inside and outside, and this is at : p.m., in an effort to refresh mrs. oswald's recollection as to whether or not she has ever been in this store. mr. liebeler. have you had a chance to go through the store, marina? *mrs. oswald. no; this is the first time. mr. liebeler. this is the first time you have been here? *mrs. oswald. yes. mr. liebeler. and you have now looked at the outside of the store and looked through the inside? *mrs. oswald. yes. mr. liebeler. and you are quite sure you have never been here before? *mrs. oswald. i'm sure i never was here before--i am quite sure. mr. liebeler. you are sure of that in spite of the testimony that you heard this morning from mrs. whitworth and mrs. hunter; is that right? *mrs. oswald. yes; that's right. she told how i was dressed with a rose jacket--that's true i had a rose jacket. mr. liebeler. she may have seen you somewhere? *mrs. oswald. yes; but i never was here--maybe she saw me on the street somewhere. she said it looked like she saw me someplace else and that's the reason why i wanted to see this store, but maybe i have forgotten by now---- mr. liebeler. you are now standing directly in front of the store at east irving boulevard, aren't you? *mrs. oswald. yes. mr. liebeler. and you are sure you have never been here before? *mrs. oswald. no; i have never been here before. mr. liebeler. do you have anything to add, mr. mckenzie? mr. mckenzie. no. *mrs. oswald. i don't know if i were inside this store, but i don't recall it now. mr. liebeler. you don't recognize this store as a place you have ever been before? *mrs. oswald. no. mr. liebeler. i have no further questions, and this will adjourn the deposition. testimony of maj. eugene d. anderson the testimony of maj. eugene d. anderson was taken at : p.m., on july , , at maryland avenue ne., washington, d.c., by messrs. j. lee rankin, general counsel; and arlen specter, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. specter. may the record show that this is a deposition proceeding of the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy, and that our witnesses today are maj. eugene d. anderson and m. sgt. james a. zahm of the u.s. marine corps who have been asked to testify about their knowledge of the capabilities of a marksman using a rifle with a scope. with that preliminary statement of purpose, would you stand, major anderson and raise your right hand please. do you solemnly swear that the testimony you shall give before the president's commission in this deposition proceeding will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? major anderson. i do. mr. specter. would you state you full name for the record please. major anderson. eugene d. anderson. mr. specter. what is your occupation or profession, sir? major anderson. i am a major in the u.s. marine corps. mr. specter. how long have you been in the marine corps. major anderson. twenty-six years months. mr. specter. of what do your current duties consist? major anderson. i am assistant head of the marksmanship branch, headquarters marine corps. mr. specter. and where is your current duty station? major anderson. in navy annex, headquarters marine corps, washington, d.c. mr. specter. how long have you held that position? major anderson. i have been stationed here for years. mr. specter. would you outline briefly your qualifications, if any, in marksmanship? major anderson. i have been working in marksmanship training for approximately years. i am a distinguished rifle shot in the marine corps, master rifle shot, national rifle association of america. mr. specter. would you outline briefly the qualifications or tests which must be achieved in order to qualify as a distinguished shot? major anderson. a man must have acquired a minimum of points from winning medals in certain specified high-caliber matches. to win these points he must have placed among the top percent of the nondistinguished shooters participating in the match. by winning a gold medal he can earn points. by winning a silver medal he can earn eight points. by winning a bronze medal he can win six points. mr. specter. and what qualifications must be displayed to obtain the classification as master of the national rifle association of america? major anderson. you have to fire in a minimum number of national rifle association sponsored matches. (discussion off the record.) major anderson. i want to correct the record. mr. specter. proceed to do so. major anderson. i am a master with the pistol in the national rifle association. i am not classified with the rifle. mr. specter. and does your classification as a distinguished marksman apply to the rifle? major anderson. to the rifle, yes. mr. specter. i now hand you a document which has heretofore been introduced into evidence as commission exhibit no. . mr. specter. i ask you if you have heretofore had an opportunity to examine that document? major anderson. yes; i have. mr. specter. and would you describe for the record what that document is, please? major anderson. this is a u.s. rifle, caliber , m- and u.s. carbine, caliber , m- -a record scorebook that is maintained by a shooter who is training for firing for qualification or requalification in the marine corps. mr. specter. is that a standard record scorebook which the marine corps makes available to every marine who shoots under those circumstances? major anderson. it was standard at the time of issuance of this particular book. mr. specter. and what was that time? major anderson. in december . mr. specter. and does the name of any specific marine appear on the front page of that document? major anderson. yes; oswald. mr. specter. and are there any initials? major anderson. it appears to be "l. h." mr. specter. would you outline the marksmanship training, if any, which a marine recruit receives in the normal course of marine training? major anderson. he goes through a very intensive weeks' training period. during this weeks for the first week he receives a basic training in the care and cleaning of the weapon. he learns sighting and aiming. he learns manipulation of the trigger. he is exposed to various training aids. he goes through a series of exercises in what we call dry firing in which he assumes all of the positions that he is going to use in the full firing of the rifle over the qualification course. normally in about the middle of the second week or the latter part of the second week he conducts some firing with a . rifle and . pistol to familiarize himself with live ammunition and to give the coaches an opportunity to check on his previous training. he then proceeds to the rifle range and he zeros the rifle in normally at yards. this consists of a few rounds being fired at a target, and the sights are changed so that at this particular range, either or yards, this rifle will strike the bull's-eye at the sight setting so indicated when there is no wind blowing and all the conditions for firing are ideal. then the following week he goes out to the range and he fires over the course completely, consisting of firing at , , and yards. he will normally fire possibly rounds the first day, which is rounds over the required amount to fire the course. this firing is normally done at yards. the following days, possibly the second or third day he may fire as much as rounds each day, giving him an opportunity to acquire more practice with the gun, and to get a better opportunity to find out the zero of his weapon and where the strike of his bullet is going to be under any given circumstances. then on thursday he will fire preliminary day, in which he will fire over the course one time under all circumstances exactly as he will do the following day for record day, except that on preliminary day he is allowed to have a coach on the range with him on the firing line to assist him in all phases. the following day on record day, he fires over the course rounds for his qualification score record. at this time the coach may give him any assistance possible as long as he is behind the firing line. once he steps onto the firing line, assumes the firing position, then he is completely on his own. he cannot be helped by any gestures or comments or in any way given any assistance from anyone whatsoever. he completes this firing and the score that he attains then becomes his qualification score. mr. specter. was that training program in effect during ? major anderson. with some possible minor deviations, yes. generally speaking this is exactly what he would have done in . mr. specter. would that training then necessarily have preceded the compilation of a marksmanship test as is reflected in the document which has been marked commission exhibit no. ? major anderson. i am not sure i understand exactly what you mean? mr. specter. perhaps i can rephrase it. would your presumption be that l. h. oswald, whose test score you have before you, would have received the training such as that which you have just described? major anderson. absolutely. he fired every day according to this. the only exception might be that if he was required to go to the sick bay for some minor treatment, and missed maybe an hour a day or some sort of thing such as that. mr. specter. and the basis for your statement on that would be your conclusion based on the fact that l. h. oswald had undergone a test where he completed these documents under the category of "us marine corps scorebook for us rifle caliber . m- and us carbine caliber . m- -a ?" major anderson. yes, sir; this document shows by dates and days as indicated that he fired daily and sighted in his rifle as prescribed. mr. specter. of course, you didn't know mr. oswald personally? major anderson. i never knew him whatsoever. mr. specter. so that your conclusion as to his training is based upon the inference which arises from the document which i have presented to you. that is to say, you know that if a man has one of those scorebooks, that he must have received that training? major anderson. absolutely. he received this in full. mr. specter. does that document have some record of practicing as well as actual scoring in it, major anderson? major anderson. this record shows that on thursday of the week preceding the record firing week, he fired approximately rounds which were not scored, appear to be zeroing in shots. there is no day here to indicate any firing on friday. monday is shown of the following week with a shot group, and shows that he fires the entire course on monday throughout. mr. specter. major anderson, i now show you a letter which i have marked for the purpose of this deposition as anderson exhibit no. , and ask you for the record to tell us what is the date of that letter, first of all? major anderson. january . (major anderson deposition exhibit no. was marked for identification.) mr. specter. to whom is the letter addressed? major anderson. mr. j. lee rankin, general counsel, president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy. mr. specter. and by whom was the letter written? major anderson. the signature shows it was from a. g. folsom, jr., lieutenant colonel, u.s. marine corps. mr. specter. have you had an opportunity heretofore to examine that letter? major anderson. yes; i have. mr. specter. and whom does that letter concern itself with? major anderson. the letter concerns a mr. oswald. mr. specter. lee harvey oswald? major anderson. yes; lee harvey oswald. mr. specter. does that letter contain with it the marksmanship practice which mr. oswald had while in the marine corps? major anderson. it so indicates; yes. mr. specter. what is the procedure of the marine corps in retaining such information on men who were in the corps and had marksmanship training? major anderson. any time a man goes through any type of live firing, the type of firing, the number of rounds he has fired, the course he has fired is supposed to be and supposedly is entered in his record book in the spaces provided for his training? mr. specter. what do you mean by live firing, sir? major anderson. by live firing i mean any time a live round of ammunition is actually placed in the gun and it is fired. mr. specter. is that distinguished from some other type of firing, or heavy firing? major anderson. yes; it is distinguished from what we call dry firing in that no ammunition is used whatsoever. a man just simulates that he is firing the gun. mr. specter. does that letter set forth the marksmanship practice which mr. oswald had in the marine corps? major anderson. it does; yes. it shows that he had the course a firing and followed by "fam" firing in the b course. mr. specter. by "fam" firing, what does that mean? major anderson. this is sharp terminology for familiarization firing and it is used to familiarize a man with the weapon prior to his being armed with said weapon. mr. specter. and on what date was the a course registered? major anderson. december . mr. specter. and what weapon was used? major anderson. the m- rifle. mr. specter. and what was his final qualification there? major anderson. . mr. specter. and what rating is that equivalent to, or within what range of rating is that score? major anderson. that should have been a sharpshooter. mr. specter. and what was the authorized ammunition allowance? major anderson. rounds for recruit firing. mr. specter. and during what period was that? major anderson. that was to be fired within a -week period. mr. specter. did he have exposure on another course for m- firing at a later date? major anderson. the record shows that may he fired the b course. mr. specter. and what weapon was used at that time? major anderson. the m- rifle. mr. specter. and what score was obtained on that occasion? major anderson. for marksman. mr. specter. and what was the authorized ammunition allowance? major anderson. rounds. mr. specter. would there be any reason why the scores might differ from to , based on the layout of the courses or any of the conditions surrounding those tests, major anderson? major anderson. yes; the day the was fired appears to be according to the record book to have been an ideal day under firing conditions. mr. specter. when you say the record book you meant commission exhibit no. that you referred to? major anderson. yes; when he fired that he had just completed a very intensive preliminary training period. he had the services of an experienced highly trained coach. he had high motivation. he had presumably a good to excellent rifle and good ammunition. we have nothing here to show under what conditions the b course was fired. it might well have been a bad day for firing the rifle--windy, rainy, dark. there is little probability that he had a good, expert coach, and he probably didn't have as high a motivation because he was no longer in recruit training and under the care of the drill instructor. there is some possibility that the rifle he was firing might not have been as good a rifle as the rifle that he was firing in his a course firing, because may well have carried this rifle for quite some time, and it got banged around in normal usage. mr. specter. what are the differences between the a and b courses, major anderson? major anderson. the a course is fired at , , and yards. the b course is exactly the same course as far as targets, number of rounds and positions are concerned, but it is fired entirely at yards. mr. specter. are there compensations in the scoring to allow for the difference in distances? major anderson. yes; there is. mr. specter. what other familiarity with weapons did mr. oswald possess according to that document identified as anderson exhibit no. ? major anderson. on december he fired the browning automatic rifle familiarization rounds. mr. specter. is there any score indicated on that firing? major anderson. there will be no scores indicated for familiarization firing. it is not scored. mr. specter. what other familiarization? major anderson. on december he fired the pistol familiarization rounds. on may he fired the -gage riot gun familiarization rounds, again on may he fired the . caliber pistol rounds for familiarization and on march he fired the -gage riot gun rounds for familiarization. mr. specter. based on what you see of mr. oswald's marksmanship capabilities from the marine corps records which you have before you, major anderson, how would you characterize him as a marksman? major anderson. i would say that as compared to other marines receiving the same type of training, that oswald was a good shot, somewhat better than or equal to--better than the average let us say. as compared to a civilian who had not received this intensive training, he would be considered as a good to excellent shot. mr. specter. major anderson, i now want to show you certain photographs which have been heretofore identified and introduced into the commission's record as a preliminary to asking your opinion on the difficulty of certain shots which i will identify. first i show you commission exhibit no. which is an overhead photograph of an area known as dealey plaza, which the record will show is the situs of the assassination of president kennedy. i now show you commission exhibit no. which is a photograph of the texas school book depository building with the letter "a" pointing to the half-opened window, that is the bottom portion of the window which is half opened, where other witnesses have testified that the assassin stood. let me add as a factor for you to assume to be true, this the record will show is based upon eyewitnesses at the scene, that the weapon partly protruded from the window identified as letter "a" in exhibit no. pointing at an angle which is not completely in a straight line but very much in a straight line with the angle of the street being designated as elm street, which street runs on a downgrade of approximately °. i now show you a document identified as commission exhibit no. , and a second document identified as commission exhibit no. , which depict frame no. and frame no. on photographs in the nature of moving pictures taken by abraham zapruder at the assassination site which the evidence indicates was the range of the first shot which struck president kennedy in the lower portion of his neck, with that bullet striking at a distance from . feet to a distance of . feet. stated differently, the evidence shows that somewhere between these two pictures president kennedy was shot in the neck, and as the photograph of the rifle scope shows in the left-hand corner lower picture, that is the view through the telescopic lens which the marksman had based on onsite tests which were made in dallas with a camera mounted looking through the scope on commission exhibit no. , which is the weapon identified as the assassination rifle. now assuming those factors to be true for purposes of this next question, how would you characterize the difficulty of a shot at that range, which would strike the president in the lower portion of his neck at a spot indicated by a white mark on the back of the stand-in the photograph marked "re-enactment"? my question, then, is how would you characterize the difficulty or ease of that shot for a marksman with mr. oswald's capabilities? major anderson. in my opinion this is not a particularly difficult shot, and that oswald had full capabilities to make this shot. mr. specter. i now show you a document marked as commission exhibit no. , which characterizes what was believed to have been the shot which struck president kennedy in the head at a distance from rifle in window to the president of . feet, with the photograph through rifle scope identified on the document being the view which the marksman had of the president at the time the president was struck in the head, and i ask you again for an opinion as to the ease or difficulty of that shot, taking into consideration the capabilities of mr. oswald as a marksman, evidenced by the marine corps documents on him. major anderson. i consider it to be not a particularly difficult shot at this short range, and that oswald had full capabilities to make such a shot. (discussion off the record.) mr. specter. may the record show that we have been off the record because mr. rankin stepped out, but we will proceed now to complete the deposition since he hasn't returned at this time. major anderson, assume if you will that there were three shots fired by the assassin with a mannlicher-carcano rifle in a time span of . to . seconds. would that speed of firing be within the capabilities of mr. oswald based upon the information as to his marksmanship ability from the marine corps records? major anderson. yes, sir; it would. mr. specter. major anderson, are you as familiar with the telescopic sights as is master sergeant zahm? major anderson. no, sir; i am not. sergeant zahm is far more familiar and much more of an expert on telescopic sights than i am. mr. specter. has the testimony which you have provided here today on the general propositions to which you have testified been within your sphere of specialization? major anderson. yes, sir; they have. mr. specter. that concludes the deposition of you, major anderson. we very much appreciate your coming. major anderson. you are quite welcome. testimony of sgt. james a. zahm the testimony of sgt. james a. zahm was taken on july , , at maryland avenue ne., washington, d.c., by messrs. j. lee rankin, general counsel; and arlen specter, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. specter. sergeant zahm, will you stand and raise your right hand. do you solemnly swear that the testimony which you shall give before the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? sergeant zahm. i do. mr. specter. would you state your full name for the record, please? sergeant zahm. james a. zahm. mr. specter. what is your profession or occupation, please? sergeant zahm. master sergeant. mr. specter. and in what branch of the service are you? sergeant zahm. u.s. marine corps. mr. specter. how long have you been in the marine corps, sergeant zahm? sergeant zahm. eighteen years. mr. specter. of what do your current duties consist? sergeant zahm. i am the nco in charge of the marksmanship training unit armory at the marksmanship training unit in the weapons training battalion marine corps school, quantico, va. mr. specter. when you say nco, what do you mean by that for the record. sergeant zahm. noncommissioned officer. mr. specter. how long have you been so occupied in that particular duty? sergeant zahm. two years months. mr. specter. what experience have you had if any in marksmanship? sergeant zahm. i became engaged in competitive shooting in , and i became a distinguished rifleman in . i fired the national matches from through to date about eight times. this is annually. i won the president's match in at the national matches and the leech cup in , and the marine corps cup in . there are some others. mr. specter. what experience have you had with telescopic sights, sergeant zahm? sergeant zahm. one of my additional duties at the present time is the noncommissioned officer in charge of the long-range team. this consists of about members of the marine corps rifle and pistol team, and i am charged with training, providing weapons, and hand loading the ammunition for practice and eventual firing at and , yards in the interservice match. mr. specter. are telescopic sights used regularly in those activities? sergeant zahm. yes. mr. specter. could you characterize for me in some manner your experience then with telescopic sights in the number that you have used or duration of time where you have used telescopic sights? sergeant zahm. well, from my own experience, and it is true that the higher powered telescopes are used in the particular type of firing we are doing right now, deliberate slow fire at extreme ranges of and , yards. we use -power to -power telescopes. these are unsuitable for moving targets or closer ranges from unsteady positions, because the power of the telescope tends to magnify the shooter's movements and makes a hold more difficult. in the lower-powered telescope such as four-power telescope at closer ranges ranging from to yards, this is an ideal type of weapon for moving targets or type of telescope for moving targets, and for the closer ranges, things being inherent in the focus of the scopes when you get in too close, the higher power type scopes tend to blur out to a certain degree. mr. specter. can you characterize the increased efficiency of a marksman in using a four-power scope as opposed to using only the iron sights? sergeant zahm. well, with the iron sights you have more room for error in the fact that you have three variables. you have your targets, your front sight and your rear sight, and you have the possibility of an error in alining the sights, and then you also have the possibility of an error in the sights on the targets, which we refer to as the sight picture. looking through aperture or even the open buckhorn type sights, when you are concentrating on your sights, your targets tend to become blurred because of the close focus of your eye in alining the sights. now this as opposed to telescope of a four-power nature it is a natural characteristic of a telescope when you are looking for your target, it is a natural thing to center your target in the view of your telescope, and in the center view of your telescope is the aiming crosshairs. this is only one point. if you get this one point, the crosshairs in the proper relationship to your target, this is an aid in locating, finding your target, because you are using the scope in the sense as binoculars. once you have found your target, your sights are already alined, and then through good trigger manipulation the shot should be well on the target. mr. specter. with respect to rapid-fire shooting, how does the telescopic sight on a four-power scope work out? sergeant zahm. four-power being a reasonably low-power scope, it has a fairly broad field of view. by this we mean it covers a reasonable amount of area out at about yards, about i think probably around feet or so. using the scope, rapidly working a bolt and using the scope to relocate your target quickly and at the same time when you locate that target you identify it and the crosshairs are in close relationship to the point you want to shoot at, it just takes a minor move in aiming to bring the crosshairs to bear, and then it is a quick squeeze. mr. specter. would you characterize it as easy, difficult, or how would you characterize it to use a scope, a four-power scope in rapid fire? sergeant zahm. a real aid, an extreme aid. mr. specter. suppose in focusing in through the four-power scope you do not get a completely circular view, but instead get a partial view with a corner of the view being blacked out because you don't have the scope in direct alinement, but you are still able to see a sufficient amount of daylight through the scope so that you can see where the crosshairs line up on target. is it in sufficient alinement at that juncture to permit the marksman to shoot accurately? sergeant zahm. yes. mr. specter. and how does that work out that the alinement is sufficient to permit an accurate shot, even though the marksman does not have a completely clear view through the entire circle of the scope? sergeant zahm. well, in the assembly of the telescope, the aiming reticle or crosshair is so placed in the scope that it is in the same plane as the focus of the lenses, and regardless of the position of the eye behind the scope, this makes no apparent or no real movement of the reticle on the target itself, so if the shooter can look through the scope and see the juncture of the crosshairs, and it is on his target, if he properly manipulates the trigger he will get a hit. mr. specter. have you had an opportunity to examine the documents identified as commission exhibit no. and exhibit no. to major anderson's deposition, sergeant zahm? sergeant zahm. yes; i have. mr. specter. based on the tests of mr. oswald shown by those documents, how would you characterize his ability as a marksman? sergeant zahm. i would say in the marine corps he is a good shot, slightly above average, and as compared to the average male of his age throughout the civilian, throughout the united states, that he is an excellent shot. mr. specter. how much familiarity would a man with oswald's qualifications, obtained in the marine corps, require in order to operate a rifle with a scope such as a mannlicher-carcano rifle with a four-power scope? sergeant zahm. how much familiarity would he require? mr. specter. let me rephrase the question. would it be very difficult for a man with oswald's capabilities as a marksman to use a rifle with a four-power scope? sergeant zahm. no; i feel that the instruction that he had received qualifies him on the basic fundamentals of marksmanship. there are just a few refinements in the operation of the bolt rifle and the scope through a minimum amount of experimenting would make him as proficient with the bolt and the scope as it did with the weapons he received instruction on, and if not it would improve his proficiency actually through the use of the telescope. i feel that this would be an advantage. mr. specter. how many shots in your opinion would a man like oswald have to take in order to be able to operate a rifle with a four-power scope, based on the training he had received in the marine corps? sergeant zahm. based on that training, his basic knowledge in sight manipulation and trigger squeeze and what not, i would say that he would be capable of sighting that rifle in well, firing it, with rounds. mr. specter. would dry runs be an aid to a man like oswald in learning how to operate a rifle with a scope on it. sergeant zahm. yes. mr. specter. would you describe for the record what is meant in marksmanship terms by a dry run? sergeant zahm. dry firing is working the bolt and manipulating the trigger and alining the sights, whether it be scope or iron, without any ammunition. the advantage in the scope in dry firing is that when he snaps the trigger or squeezes the trigger, he can see any apparent error in his trigger manipulation, movement of the piece, by the jump of the crosshair much easier than he can with iron sights. mr. specter. would the use of a four-power scope be a real advantage to a marksman of mr. oswald's capabilities or of a slight advantage, or how would you characterize the advantage that he would obtain, if any, from the use of such a scope? sergeant zahm. i consider it a real advantage, particularly at the range of yards, in identifying your target. it allows you to see your target clearly, and it is still of a minimum amount of power that it doesn't exaggerate your own body movements. it just is an aid in seeing in the fact that you only have the one element, the crosshair, in relation to the target as opposed to iron sights with alining the sights and then alining them on the target. it is a real aid. mr. specter. sergeant zahm, i am now going to show you the same photographs which i showed to major anderson in setting the basis for asking you a hypothetical question on capabilities here. as the record will show, we have heretofore before the president's commission entered into evidence exhibit no. which is an overhead shot of dealey plaza. commission exhibit no. , which i am now displaying to you, is a photograph of the texas school book depository building. the evidence in the record indicates that the marksman stood at the point designated "a" with the lower half of the window being raised halfway, and the gun protruding out of that window pointing down the street called elm street in approximately the angle of my pencil which is virtually although not exactly straight down the street. elm street declines ° as it slopes under the triple underpass. as the evidence will further show, commission exhibits nos. and respectively depict frames and of the zapruder film which is a range of the first shot from . feet to . feet. in the lower left-hand corner under designation "photograph through rifle scope" there is shown the view of the marksman from the sixth floor of the depository building as he looked down at president kennedy with this picture being taken of a stand-in for president kennedy, with the white mark designating the spot on the president where the first bullet struck him. now assuming that the president was struck under those circumstances at a distance of from . feet to . feet, using a . mm mannlicher-carcano rifle with a four-power scope, would a man with oswald's marksmanship capabilities be able to complete such a shot and strike the target on the white mark there? sergeant zahm. very definitely. mr. specter. how would you characterize that, as a difficult, not too difficult, easy, or how would you characterize that shot? sergeant zahm. with the equipment he had and with his ability, i consider it a very easy shot. mr. specter. now taking a look at commission exhibit no. , which as the record will show, has been introduced into evidence to depict the shot which struck president kennedy in the head at a distance from the rifle in the window to the part of the president's body being . feet. assuming the same factors about using a mannlicher-carcano rifle and pointing it down elm street as shown on commission exhibit no. , would a marksman of mr. oswald's capabilities using such a rifle with a -power scope be able to strike the president in the back of the head? would mr. oswald possess the capability to complete such a shot which did, in this situation, strike the president in the back of the head? sergeant zahm. yes; i think that aiming at the mass of what portion of the president is visible at that distance and with his equipment, he would very easily have attained a hit, not necessarily aiming and hitting in the head. this would have been a little more difficult and probably be to the top of his ability, aiming and striking the president in the head. but assuming that he aimed at the mass to the center portion of the president's body, he would have hit him very definitely someplace, and the fact that he hit him in the head, but he could have hit, got a hit. mr. specter. so you would have expected a man of oswald's capabilities at a distance of . feet to strike the president someplace aiming at him under those circumstances? sergeant zahm. yes. mr. specter. and within the range of where you would expect him to hit him, would that include the president's head? sergeant zahm. yes. mr. specter. and how would you characterize that shot with respect to whether it was difficult or not difficult? (discussion off the record.) mr. specter. let's go back on the record. may the record show that sergeant zahm has questioned the appearance of the "photograph through rifle scope" which appear on exhibits nos. and . and as the record will show, there are only four photographs on exhibit no. whereas there are eight on commission exhibit no. , so that necessarily the photograph through the rifle scope is much smaller as it is depicted on exhibit no. , and i want you to bear that in mind, sergeant zahm, in answering the question as to whether you consider the shot at a distance of . feet to be difficult or not difficult; or characterize it for me in your own words. sergeant zahm. i consider it still an easy shot, a little more difficult from the president's body position and increase in distance of approximately feet, but i still consider it an easy shot for a man with the equipment he had and his ability. mr. specter. assuming that there were three shots fired in a range of . to . seconds, would that speed of firing at that range indicated in the prior questions be within mr. oswald's capabilities as a marksman? sergeant zahm. yes. mr. specter. what effect if any would the alinement of the street have on the moving vehicle in the way that it is shown on the picture, exhibit no. ? sergeant zahm. this is a definite advantage to the shooter, the vehicle moving directly away from him and the downgrade of the street, and he being in an elevated position made an almost stationary target while he was aiming in, very little movement if any. mr. specter. how would the fact that the street had a ° decline affect the difficulty of the shot. sergeant zahm. it would make it easier because oswald was in an elevated position, and therefore if the car was traveling on a level terrain, it would apparently--he would have to keep adjusting by holding up a little bit as the car traveled. but by going downgrade this just straightened out his line of sight that much better. mr. specter. so that if the car had been proceeding on a level, the assassin would have had to have raised his weapon as the distance between the rifle and the car increased to allow for trajectory? sergeant zahm. no; just to allow for the movement of the targets, the travel. assume that you are aiming standing at ground level and aiming down a little at somebody walking straight away from you, and you could hold your finger and point to him and never have to move it. but when he gets to the bottom of the hill and the ground levels out, then as he continues on you have to point your finger---- mr. specter. raise your finger as you are indicating with your finger now? sergeant zahm. right; you would have to raise your finger to track the target. mr. specter. so that if you were aiming at a man in a moving car driving on the horizontal, as he got farther away from you, would you (a) hold your rifle at the same level, (b) lower it, or (c) raise it? sergeant zahm. if you were in an elevated, a slightly elevated position, and he was driving on straight level terrain, you would have to continually track and raise your weapon as he increased his distance from you. mr. specter. and if he was going down in an angle of descent, would that decrease the necessity for you to raise your rifle in tracking him? sergeant zahm. right; it would slow the movement down. there still might be a slight movement, but it wouldn't be as fast. therefore, not affecting the aiming or possibly having to introduce a lead in your aiming, because the target is staying relatively in the same position on the line of sight. mr. specter. so then it would have been an aid to the assassin to have had the president's car going on a downgrade because that would have taken into consideration some of the adjustment necessary by virtue of the greater distance between the rifle and the victim? sergeant zahm. yes. mr. specter. do you have anything to add, sergeant zahm, which you think might be helpful in this analysis? sergeant zahm. no, sir; i don't think so. mr. specter. thank you very much for appearing before the commission today, sir. testimony of c. a. hamblen the testimony of c. a. hamblen was taken at : p.m., on july , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. liebeler. you may remain seated. will you raise your right hand? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. hamblen. i do. mr. liebeler. my name is wesley j. liebeler. i am an attorney on the president's commission investigating the assassination of president kennedy. i have been authorized to take your testimony by the commission pursuant to authority granted to it by executive order , dated november , , and the joint resolution of congress, no. . you are entitled under the rules of the commission governing the taking of testimony of witnesses to have an attorney present, should you wish. i understand that you are present pursuant to a subpena that was served on you some days ago by the u.s. secret service, and i presume since you don't have an attorney with you at this time, you are prepared to proceed with your testimony without an attorney? mr. hamblen. i don't need an attorney. you might wish to make a little correction. this should be c. a. hamblen instead of c. r. mr. liebeler. your name is c. a. h-a-m-b-l-e-n? mr. hamblen. that's right. mr. liebeler. how old are you? mr. hamblen. i will be in december. mr. liebeler. you are employed by the western union telegraph co.; isn't that right? mr. hamblen. yes. mr. liebeler. how long have you worked for them? mr. hamblen. it will be years the th day of august. mr. liebeler. i want to come right to the point in this deposition. i think you know basically the reason we have asked you to come over. it is my understanding that you had a conversation with a newspaper reporter by the name of bob fenley shortly after the assassination, in which you told him, in substance, that you thought that a man who you thought looked like lee oswald had been in your office and had either sent a telegram or cashed a money order telegram that he had in his possession; is that correct? mr. hamblen. not exactly. mr. liebeler. what is it exactly? mr. hamblen. during that time, i came in contact with newspaper correspondents from all over the world. in my years of service to the company, i have never disclosed the contents of a telegram, who they were addressed to, who they were from, or anything pertaining to them. i don't think i told mr. fenley that a lee oswald had been in there, because talking with those correspondents, i wouldn't divulge any patron coming into the telegraph office in search of any of our services, money orders, telegrams, collateral services, collection services, anything that we have to offer. i believe there is some misunderstanding on mr. fenley's part there. perhaps i did tell him that i thought i had seen someone that looked like the man that i saw over television. mr. liebeler. do you remember---- mr. hamblen. i thought he was the assassinator. mr. liebeler. do you remember talking to mr. fenley about this? mr. hamblen. i don't remember telling anyone that, of anyone filing a telegram with us. i remember talking with fenley, but i wouldn't disclose any information. mr. liebeler. what did you say to fenley? mr. hamblen. just in general conversation like i would with wes wise or any of the other reporters that i come in contact with. mr. liebeler. didn't you tell fenley that you thought you had seen somebody that reminded you of oswald in your office? mr. hamblen. yes; i did tell him that i had saw oswald. i may have told him that. i don't recall what all was said--as many of those correspondents that i talked to during that period of time. then the employees under me, we never discuss any telegrams unless it is necessary for them to ask me to pass upon a telegram so it could be transmitted. mr. liebeler. do you remember telling fenley that when you saw the picture of the alleged assassin on television, that he looked very much like a man that had caused you a hard time on several instances in your office? mr. hamblen. i don't remember telling fenley anything like that. mr. liebeler. do you remember signing a statement to that effect for mr. wilcox on december , , and i show you a copy. mr. hamblen. that i told fenley that i saw that man in there? mr. liebeler. yes. mr. hamblen. i told wilcox that i thought i saw him, but i don't think i told fenley. mr. liebeler. read the first paragraph of that statement. mr. hamblen (reading). i don't think i told fenley that. i remember telling mr. wilcox that i thought a party had been in there that resembled oswald, on several different occasions. mr. liebeler. well, now the statement that i have shown you here, which is wilcox exhibit no. , is a copy of a statement that you signed on december , , isn't it? that is your signature? mr. hamblen. yes; that is my signature. mr. liebeler. could i have it back, please? now, that statement says, and i quote: "i was in conversation with a reporter at the counter and remarked to him that i was watching my tv, enjoying the ernie ford show, when word was flashed that the president had been shot and that i thought to myself what a coincidence it was that i recognized the picture of the accused gunman when i recognized it when he was slain in jail. he asked me how i could remember so vividly the photo and my answer to him that the picture was or was the spit image of a party that had caused me a hard time on several instances in his transactions of business within the past several months. (mr. bob fenley was the reporter.)" mr. hamblen. well, now, if i gave bob any information like that, i don't recall it now. i might have at the time that i wrote the statement. mr. liebeler. now you had several conversations with mr. wilcox about this whole matter over a period of time? mr. hamblen. yes. mr. liebeler. mr. wilcox and the company conducted a thorough investigation of the files? mr. hamblen. i am sure they did. mr. liebeler. and tried to find the telegrams that you thought this man that was in there may have sent; isn't that right? mr. hamblen. yes. mr. liebeler. were you able to find them? mr. hamblen. i wasn't able to detect any one. mr. liebeler. after this investigation was made, mr. wilcox showed you these telegrams that you have associated or thought might be associated with oswald? mr. hamblen. they were brought to me in the presence of mr. wilcox and the vice president of the company in charge of this investigation. mr. liebeler. you weren't able to identify any of those telegrams as having been sent by this man you thought looked like oswald; isn't that right? mr. hamblen. that's right. and i think i am pretty good on recognizing handwriting after handling as many as i have over those years of time. mr. liebeler. to the best of your recollection at this time, do you think that lee oswald was ever in your office? mr. hamblen. i wouldn't say that it was lee oswald. i would say it was someone that resembled him from the picture that i had seen in the paper and on tv. mr. liebeler. but you aren't able to state positively that it was lee oswald? mr. hamblen. no, sir. mr. liebeler. now, i show you a photograph that has been marked pizzo exhibit no. -a, and ask you if you can see anybody in that picture that you think might have been the man that was in your office that we have been talking about. mr. hamblen. no, sir. mr. liebeler. i show you a picture that has been marked bringuier exhibit no. , and ask you if you recognize anybody in that picture. mr. hamblen. no, sir; i do not. mr. liebeler. do you recall specifically that mr. aubrey lee lewis at one time in the fall of had some trouble paying somebody a money order because this fellow expected to get the money order without proper identification; that you became involved in this and helped mr. lewis handle it? mr. hamblen. yes, sir; i did. mr. liebeler. do you remember what the fellow looked like? mr. hamblen. no; i can't tell you what he looked like. mr. liebeler. do you know if it was lee harvey oswald? mr. hamblen. i wouldn't say that it was. mr. liebeler. do you think he resembled oswald in any way? mr. hamblen. no; i don't. different ways people dress and everything, they come in one time and we pay them money orders and the next time they come in we hardly recognize them. i remember it was a very small money order, too small to quibble over. i can't remember where it was from. i know it was under $ , i know that. usually i pay people without identification when it is a small money order, which the clerks are not allowed to do. they have to get my permission before they can make payment on a money order where a person is unable to furnish proper identification. but on small amounts, i take it upon myself to assume the responsibility, hoping that i will pay the right man. mr. liebeler. after looking at this picture that we have looked at, and after reviewing your recollection, you are not able to identify any of the people who you saw in your office during that period as being lee harvey oswald, isn't that a fact? mr. hamblen. no, sir. mr. liebeler. am i correct in assuming that you are quite certain that oswald was not a regular customer, in any event? he was never coming into your office at regular intervals, is that correct? mr. hamblen. well, i wouldn't say lee oswald came in there at regular intervals. we have patrons that visit us sometimes once a week, sometimes half a dozen times a week. if it was him, he was very infrequent. i will say if it was him, he wasn't there over three times, that i recall. mr. liebeler. there was a fellow that you thought resembled oswald to some extent that did come in on occasion, or at least two or three times, but you are not able to positively state that it was oswald? mr. hamblen. no, sir. mr. liebeler. am i correct in understanding that in your discussions with mr. wilcox and with the other officials of the company, you did the best that you could to straighten this whole matter out and determine whether it was oswald or not? mr. hamblen. i certainly did. mr. liebeler. you were unable, after working with mr. wilcox, to pin down any of these telegrams or money orders that would indicate that it was oswald? mr. hamblen. that is correct. mr. liebeler. now, specifically, i show you a picture marked "pizzo exhibit no. -c," and ask you if that looks like that man who was in your office. mr. hamblen. no; i wouldn't say that that was the man that was in there. no resemblance. mr. liebeler. i want to cut your testimony as short as i possibly can, because you are not feeling well. we appreciate your cooperation in coming in when you don't feel well like you have. mr. hamblen. i appreciate it. i was in the x-ray all morning and yesterday morning for hours. mr. liebeler. thank you very much, mr. hamblen, for coming in. i appreciate it very much. mr. hamblen. if i can help you any further, well, you have my address. mr. liebeler. we will get in touch with you. testimony of robert gene fenley the testimony of robert gene fenley, was taken at : a.m., on july , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex. by mr. leon d. hubert, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. sam kelley, assistant attorney general of texas, was present. mr. hubert. this is the deposition of robert gene fenley. mr. fenley, my name is leon hubert. i am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the president's commission. under the provisions of executive order dated november , , and the joint resolution of congress no. , and the rules of procedure adopted by the president's commission in conformance with that executive order and the joint resolution, i have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you. i state to you now that the general nature of the commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relevant to the assassination of president kennedy and the subsequent violent death of lee harvey oswald. in particular as to you, mr. fenley, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. now, i understand that you are appearing here today by virtue of a letter request mailed to you by mr. j. lee rankin, general counsel of the staff of the president's commission, which you received about days ago? mr. fenley. that is correct. mr. hubert. will you please rise so i may administer the oath? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. fenley. i do. mr. hubert. will you state your full name? mr. fenley. robert gene fenley. mr. hubert. g-e-n-e is your middle name? mr. fenley. correct. mr. hubert. where do you live, sir? mr. fenley. strayhorn drive, mesquite, tex. mr. hubert. what is your occupation, mr. fenley? mr. fenley. reporter for the dallas times herald. mr. hubert. how long have you been so employed? mr. fenley. nine years. mr. hubert. how old are you? mr. fenley. thirty-six. mr. hubert. were you in newspaper work before you joined the times herald? mr. fenley. yes. mr. hubert. with what newspaper? mr. fenley. prior to the times herald, i was with the lubbock avalanche journal, the denton record chronicle, and the pryor, oklahoma, times democrat. mr. hubert. did you go to college, sir? mr. fenley. i went to oklahoma university. mr. hubert. did you graduate? mr. fenley. four years. no; i did not graduate. mr. hubert. study journalism? mr. fenley. yes; part of the time. mr. hubert. your whole adult experience, i gather, therefore, has been in newspaper work? mr. fenley. that is true. mr. hubert. now, do you know a mr. hamblen connected with the western union co. here in dallas? mr. fenley. yes; i have talked with him on one occasion. i don't know him personally. mr. hubert. what was that one occasion? mr. fenley. the date is rather vague in my mind. mr. hubert. can you tell us perhaps the occasion? mr. fenley. yes; i am a stringer. mr. hubert. a what? mr. fenley. a stringer. a correspondent for time magazine, and i had written a long piece which we transmitted by western union, and i had gone into western union to hand this over for transmitting, and i fell in conversation with mr. hamblen. mr. hubert. had you known him prior to that time? mr. fenley. no; i had not. mr. hubert. could you tell us about what time of day it was? mr. fenley. it was at night. i forget the exact time of night, but i believe i had driven from mesquite with the story to give it to western union. it might have been or o'clock. mr. hubert. it happened that hamblen was the clerk or employee of the western union in service? mr. fenley. yes, sir. mr. hubert. can you tell us how you came to engage him in conversation? mr. fenley. he noticed the wire or press message which i had, and it had to do with the assassination, or oswald, frankly. i can't remember the content of the wire, but we sort of chatted there for a moment, and he recalled that he was certain that oswald had come into the office on occasion. i don't know whether he used the word several. i took it to mean that. and received some various small amounts of money orders. and certainly this was interesting to me. we kept chatting and i asked him, now how big were the amounts of the orders, and he said, "i don't think there would be anything over $ , $ or $ ." and i asked him, "now, you are pretty sure this was oswald? i mean, the guy you have seen in the pictures and things like that?" and he replied he was. he said, "he used to come in and would give the girls a hard time. he was a cantankerous individual." mr. hubert. did he mention what girls? mr. fenley. no; not by name. so he said, "i believe the last time"--and he couldn't recall the date or anything--"that he came in, he went himself to wait on the fellow because he knew that he was sort of difficult to deal with." well, this was certainly interesting to me as a newspaperman. mr. hubert. had you heard that story before? mr. fenley. no; i had not. mr. hubert. in other words, your coming upon this story was something of a gratuity? mr. fenley. it certainly was. i was slightly amazed. and the other thing, there was a marble countertop there in the office, and he said, or he recalled that oswald had written in what he described a curious sort of printing with, as best he could tell, he wrote out some letters. for instance, an "n" he said as printed by oswald would have a high rising right side to it. he said it was a rather curious sort of printing. mr. hubert. did he demonstrate that to you? mr. fenley. he demonstrated this on the marble. mr. hubert. hamblen did so? mr. fenley. yes. mr. hubert. did he indicate that it was in a foreign alphabet? mr. fenley. no. mr. hubert. just a peculiar art? mr. fenley. i took it to be certainly the english alphabet, but with a peculiar sort of printing. mr. hubert. did he indicate what was the nature of the difficulty that he had had on previous occasions with the man he said was oswald? mr. fenley. nothing other than an indication that oswald was difficult to deal with. mr. hubert. but he didn't say how he was difficult to deal with? mr. fenley. no; not specifically. well, at this moment i thought, well, this sounds like quite an interesting story. and hamblen gave me his card. so i went home, and the next day---- mr. hubert. how long was the conversation? mr. fenley. oh, not over minutes long. i asked him also, which i failed to mention, how could we get the records, or how could anyone get the records, and he indicated it would be very difficult. of course, this would be very helpful if you would get the names or the identification of people who had sent any money orders to oswald, and he indicated that there were so many of that type of money order coming in that they just couldn't keep all the records. and i got the impression that it would be either impossible or almost impossible to run it down. mr. hubert. you mentioned, i think, that you were particularly interested as to the certainty of his identification of oswald as the man, and that you made some inquiry along that line? mr. fenley. yes. mr. hubert. what did you do by way of testing him, as it were, on that identification? mr. fenley. well, as i said, i went home that night, and, of course, we don't have--we are an afternoon newspaper and don't have deadlines until the morning. the next morning i went to talk to our police reporter, whose name is george carter, and i hold him what hamblen had told me. i said i am not too sure of it. i think it needs a double check. and he said, well, i know the guy. mr. hubert. meaning hamblen? mr. fenley. yes; he said he knew the fellow over at western union, and he said, "i know he is in at mike's, which is a little barbecue stand across from the city hall." hamblen would come into mike's on occasion, and george knew him. and i said, "george, why don't you go talk to him and see if he will tell you the same thing?" and george did. when he did, we compared notes, and he had told george just precisely, as best we knew, the same content he told me. so george wrote the story. mr. hubert. did you yourself make any notes contemporaneously with the conversation with hamblen or later? mr. fenley. no; i may have made some at home, jotted down a couple of things on a scrap of paper. in fact, i know i did. mr. hubert. is that available? mr. fenley. i doubt it. i am sure i have thrown it away. i was very interested in the story, but i was sort of afraid to take notes in front of him, since a lot of people will suddenly freeze up when you start taking notes. mr. hubert. but to come back to the question of identification, i think you mentioned that it struck you that that was the key to the story, as it were? mr. fenley. yes. mr. hubert. did you press him in any way about the identification? mr. fenley. not a great deal. i really, after asking another question about it, saying, "now you really feel like you saw oswald," then i didn't press the matter any further, because i was afraid he would freeze up. mr. hubert. i understand too that his identification, as he stated it to you, was based upon comparison of the mental image he had of the man that had come in with the pictures of oswald he had seen since the assassination? mr. fenley. on television. and frankly, for that reason, i wasn't too darn sure that he knew what he was talking about. so i mean, you always have this suspicion that somebody is trying to identify in the case or something, and this is precisely why i went to carter and said, "why don't you talk to him?" mr. hubert. in other words even on that day you were wondering whether this man really had seen oswald or not? mr. fenley. yes. mr. hubert. did he mention to you anything about oswald having come to collect any money order in company with the person of spanish or latin american appearance? mr. fenley. no; he did one thing, and i am really squeezing my memory here. i believe he said he thought he lived at the "y" on one occasion, that he came over again--i am not too certain of that because all of this business is really, there is so much of this jumbled up, but i do believe he said he thought he was living at the "y." mr. hubert. there was no other person present when you spoke to hamblen? mr. fenley. there were people in the foyer of the office. mr. hubert. but no one in this conversation? mr. fenley. no one immediately. mr. hubert. did hamblen know who you were? mr. fenley. i think so, being that i did send the telegram addressed to time, inc., and signed robert fenley of dallas times herald. mr. hubert. did this conversation occur after your story had been filed, or while it was being filed, or interspersed? mr. fenley. interspersed. mr. hubert. and he volunteered all of this? mr. fenley. yes. mr. hubert. i mean the beginning of it? mr. fenley. yes; i certainly forgot what preceded his volunteering it, but it was a volunteered thing. certainly i couldn't have had any information to question him. mr. hubert. in fact, you did not have any information about this at all? mr. fenley. no; it took me rather by surprise. mr. hubert. now there is one other matter. you indicated you didn't know what day this occurred on, and i wonder if there is any way you could fix it? it would have been, i suppose, after the shooting of oswald? mr. fenley. yes; certainly. mr. hubert. how long after? mr. fenley. it wasn't too long after that. now i remember one other person who came in, and oddly enough he didn't hear the conversation, but there is sort of a coincidence that at the door was a fellow by the name of marsh clark who is also a full-time time man. mr. hubert. with what? mr. fenley. i believe he is in detroit or chicago. mr. hubert. with what? mr. fenley. time. and also i saw that he had a long thick file, and i casually inquired who he was with, and it turned out he was with time also. marsh, i don't believe--in fact i am fairly certain--did not hear what hamblen had told me. mr. hubert. did marsh clark come in, or did you see him after your conversation was over? mr. fenley. yes; i made myself acquainted to him after the conversation with hamblen, but he was the only other person that i could identify as being there. i was trying to think by that--now marsh was still in town, so it must not have been--we could go back to the file on this thing and find that story, and it would have been about days before that story appeared. mr. hubert. let me make this point to you. i notice from the calendar that i have before me of the year that november was thursday and was thanksgiving. could you relate this meeting with hamblen to that date? mr. fenley. it seems to me it might be--my memory on these things is terrible--but it seems to me that it might have been around thanksgiving, now that you mention it. mr. hubert. would you say that it was within the week immediately succeeding the shooting of oswald? mr. fenley. i couldn't be positive, but i think it could have been; yes. this could be checked very easily by going to the newspaper file and getting the date and then going back a couple of days. mr. hubert. this mr. carter, i think you said, checked with mr. hamblen? that is, he told you he did? mr. fenley. yes. mr. hubert. on the same day that you told him about it, which was the next day? mr. fenley. the next day after; yes. mr. hubert. i think you mentioned that he said that you suggested that he check it out with hamblen, and that he did right away, or in a few hours? mr. fenley. i would have written the story myself, except i felt a little dubious, i must say, of it and i wanted george to do the same thing and see if the story matched. so now, frankly, i am not too positive when george actually talked to hamblen, but i believe the story appeared on a saturday morning. so if it could have been thanksgiving, if thanksgiving would be on a thursday, and george talked to him on friday, it would appear for the saturday paper. mr. hubert. but you have a recollection that clark spoke to you after having spoken to hamblen? mr. fenley. yes; i am certain of that. mr. hubert. before the story appeared? mr. fenley. yes. mr. hubert. and told you that the story he got from hamblen was about the same as what you told him hamblen told you? mr. fenley. you mean carter? mr. hubert. yes; george carter. mr. fenley. yes. mr. hubert. is there anything else, sir, you would like to comment upon concerning this matter? mr. fenley. no; gee, i wish i--i am still very curious about this, but what results, if any, this yielded, frankly, i don't mean this for the record, but i frankly heard that he recanted the tale. mr. hubert. let me ask you this. this is a part of the formality of closing these depositions. i don't think, and i ask you to state whether you concur, that there has been any conversation between us this morning other than that which has been recorded in this deposition? mr. fenley. no. mr. hubert. you do concur? mr. fenley. i concur. mr. hubert. thank you very much, sir. mr. fenley. yes, sir. testimony of aubrey lee lewis the testimony of aubrey lee lewis was taken at : a.m., on july , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. leon d. hubert, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. dean robert g. story, special counsel to the attorney general of texas and sam kelley, assistant attorney general of texas, were present. mr. hubert. this is the deposition of aubrey lee lewis. mr. lewis, my name is leon hubert. i am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the president's commission. under the provisions of executive order dated november , , and the joint resolution of congress no. , and the rules of procedure adopted by the president's commission in conformance with that executive order and the joint resolution, i have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you. i state to you now that the general nature of the commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relevant to the assassination of president kennedy and the subsequent violent death of lee harvey oswald. in particular as to you, mr. lewis, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. now i understand, mr. lewis, that you appeared here today by virtue of a letter requesting you to do so, addressed to you by mr. j. lee rankin, general counsel of the staff of the president's commission. mr. lewis. yes. mr. hubert. when did you receive that? mr. lewis. it was friday. mr. hubert. friday, the th, is that correct? mr. lewis. yes. mr. hubert. will you stand, please, and take the oath? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. lewis. i do. mr. hubert. will you state your name? mr. lewis. aubrey lee lewis. mr. hubert. where do you live? mr. lewis. tolosa drive. mr. hubert. what is your occupation? mr. lewis. i am an assistant branch manager. mr. hubert. of what? mr. lewis. western union telegraph co. mr. hubert. where? mr. lewis. lemmon avenue. mr. hubert. in what city? mr. lewis. dallas, tex. mr. hubert. how long have you been so occupied? mr. lewis. five years. mr. hubert. what was your occupation prior to that time? mr. lewis. u.s. navy. mr. hubert. and prior to that? mr. lewis. high school. mr. hubert. how old are you? mr. lewis. twenty-six. mr. hubert. so that all of your adult life you have been employed by the western union? mr. lewis. yes, sir. mr. hubert. have you held the same position all that time? mr. lewis. no; i have held the same position about the last year and a half. mr. hubert. what are your general duties in that capacity? mr. lewis. i am an operator to receive and send telegrams, and advise the other personnel, instruct the new personnel about the daily routine of the office. mr. hubert. is that branch number known by a particular designation or number? mr. lewis. it is b- branch office. mr. hubert. on lemmon? mr. lewis. yes; lemmon avenue. mr. hubert. do you know mr. c. a. hamblen? mr. lewis. yes, sir. mr. hubert. what is his first name? mr. lewis. curtis. mr. hubert. is he employed by the western union? mr. lewis. yes, sir. mr. hubert. where? mr. lewis. at main, dallas, tex. mr. hubert. that is the downtown office? mr. lewis. that is the main branch; yes, sir; main office. mr. hubert. how long have you known him? mr. lewis. i have known him the better part of years. about - / . mr. hubert. have you ever worked with him? mr. lewis. yes, sir. mr. hubert. when? mr. lewis. you mean what years, or when? mr. hubert. i have specifically in mind sometime prior to november . mr. lewis. i worked under him nearly years. mr. hubert. where was that? mr. lewis. that was at the main office, main. he is the early night manager. mr. hubert. at the main street branch? mr. lewis. yes, sir. mr. hubert. so that you worked under him at the main street branch until about years ago? mr. lewis. about a year and a half ago. mr. hubert. now were you working with him either at the main street branch or at the other branch that you mentioned sometime during the fall of ? mr. lewis. yes, sir. mr. hubert. where was that? which one? mr. lewis. that was at the main street; main. mr. hubert. how did you come to be working there? mr. lewis. i was pulled in from my job because they were short downtown. people were on vacation. mr. hubert. how long a period did you work with mr. hamblen then at the main branch? mr. lewis. i was down weeks altogether, and he was out the first week. i relieved him the first week, and then i relieved this other fellow the second week, and i worked under him the second week i was there. mr. hubert. so that you worked under mr. hamblen at the main branch during the early night shift for week? mr. lewis. yes, sir. mr. hubert. could you place that week? mr. lewis. it was in october, i believe. i am not for sure. mr. hubert. would that be a matter of record on this part? mr. lewis. it is in the paper there. i don't know exactly what date it was. mr. hubert. i now show you a photostatic copy of a document dated dallas, tex., december , , addressed to mr. wilcox, apparently signed by aubrey lee lewis, which has heretofore been identified as follows: "exhibit no. in the deposition of laurance r. wilcox at dallas, tex., march , , wjl." i have shown you this photostatic copy of this document which i have just described, and i now ask you if that is a photostat of your signature? mr. lewis. yes. mr. hubert. is this document addressed to mr. wilcox and identified as i have stated a moment ago, a correct statement of facts, so far as you know? mr. lewis. yes, sir. mr. hubert. now i wish you would give us further details concerning the incident to which reference is made in this exhibit no. , wilcox' deposition, with reference to hamblen's difficulty with a man named oswald? mr. lewis. well, as i said, i was working the early night money order counter, and this party approached me and said he had a money order, and i asked him for his identification, which he didn't have any at that time. and i asked him could he obtain some, and he said he guessed he could if he had to. he left and came back with some identification. i believe it was a little navy id release card. and i paid him on that. he gave me quite a bit of trouble. mr. hubert. of what nature? mr. lewis. oh, he was cursing and telling how lousy everything was. mr. hubert. did mr. hamblen have any part in that matter? mr. lewis. i beg your pardon? mr. hubert. did mr. hamblen have any part in this matter? mr. lewis. well, yes. when we have difficulty with anybody, he comes up and helps us. mr. hubert. did he come up on this occasion? mr. lewis. yes, sir. mr. hubert. did he speak to this individual? mr. lewis. yes. mr. hubert. can you tell us what conversation or statements passed between mr. hamblen and the individual? mr. lewis. it was just about the identification, about that you have to have it before you can get your money. mr. hubert. prior to the time when the man went off to get the identification? mr. lewis. yes. mr. hubert. how long was mr. hamblen with this man? mr. lewis. i couldn't say for sure. i don't really know. mr. hubert. how long were you with him on the first occasion? mr. lewis. the first occasion i would say about to minutes. mr. hubert. now how long after having left to get the identification did he come back with his identification you referred to? mr. lewis. it wasn't long. i would say about to minutes. mr. hubert. did mr. hamblen see him then? mr. lewis. yes. mr. hubert. how do you know that? mr. lewis. because he came back up to the counter. mr. hubert. mr. hamblen did? mr. lewis. yes. mr. hubert. why did he do that? did you ask him to? mr. lewis. he saw him come in, and he came back and helped me out with him. mr. hubert. was this person disagreeable on the second occasion? mr. lewis. he was somewhat disagreeable--still in a nasty mood--you might say. mr. hubert. when you say nasty mood, could you give us an example of what physically happened that you characterize as nasty? mr. lewis. well, cursing and telling us how lousy we are, and that he had been paid money orders before and never had to have any identification. and just generally what everybody else tells us. it is nothing new. we hear it quite often. mr. hubert. do you remember this person's name? mr. lewis. no, sir. mr. hubert. did mr. hamblen tell you that he had had difficulty with this man prior to this occasion? mr. lewis. no, sir. mr. hubert. did he tell you that he had ever cashed any money orders for this person prior to this occasion? mr. lewis. i don't believe so, no, sir. mr. hubert. do you recall any address to the payee? mr. lewis. the ymca is the only address that he gave me. mr. hubert. was the telegram money order addressed to the ymca? mr. lewis. yes, sir; as far as i can remember, it was. mr. hubert. well, now, as i understand it, it must have come in with the telegram? mr. lewis. he came in with the check. mr. hubert. the check? mr. lewis. yes, sir. mr. hubert. your recollection is, the check was addressed to the ymca, to an individual at the y? mr. lewis. we have a rubber stamp at each branch office which is stamped at the top of their checks where it was issued, and as i recall, it was issued at the cotton exchange office. mr. hubert. at the cotton exchange office? mr. lewis. yes, sir. mr. hubert. of dallas, tex.? mr. lewis. dallas. mr. hubert. so that there was someone in dallas sending a money order from the cotton exchange office? mr. lewis. no, sir. that is where it was addressed, to the cotton exchange. that is where the money order was sent to. i have no idea where it was sent from. mr. hubert. well, what is this part then about, ymca? mr. lewis. we have an "office issued" and there is a rubber stamp on the check where it was issued at, but i have no idea or know where it was coming from. that was where the check was written up at, at the cotton exchange. mr. hubert. and it was addressed to the payee? mr. lewis. to the payee at the ymca. mr. hubert. how are those checks handled? for instance, when it was issued by the cotton exchange branch, would it have been mailed or delivered? mr. lewis. delivered by boy. mr. hubert. delivered by boy? mr. lewis. to the clerk. mr. hubert. to the addressee? mr. lewis. to the clerk at the ymca. the clerk signs for it and keeps them there in a little box they have there. mr. hubert. do you know of your own knowledge whether this was done in this case? that is to say, that the clerk receipted for it at the ymca? mr. lewis. so far as i know, that is how it was handled. mr. hubert. i mean if you know that absolutely, or are you just assuming that is the way? mr. lewis. i am just assuming that is the way it was handled. mr. hubert. you don't have any particular knowledge on this occasion? mr. lewis. no; i don't. mr. hubert. can you give us a description of this individual? mr. lewis. the only thing i could remember was that he was of a feminine, very slender build fellow. mr. hubert. what do you mean? mr. lewis. well, he talked funny and peculiar. mr. hubert. did he have an accent? mr. lewis. no accent. just the way a person acts. mr. hubert. what was his mannerism? mr. lewis. mannerism was feminine. mr. hubert. in what way? mr. lewis. well, i don't know how to describe it. mr. hubert. just an overall impression? mr. lewis. just an overall impression, of the person. as far as remembering his weight and height and everything like that, i wouldn't. i have no idea. mr. hubert. was he dark complexioned? mr. lewis. dark complexioned. mr. hubert. do you remember the color of his eyes? mr. lewis. no, sir. mr. hubert. had dark hair? mr. lewis. that is the only thing i remember. mr. hubert. how was he dressed? mr. lewis. i don't recall that either. mr. hubert. was he alone? mr. lewis. no, sir. there was a companion with him. mr. hubert. how did you know that the person with him was with him? in fact was a companion? mr. lewis. they were talking. they came together and left together both times. mr. hubert. i understand you to say that the companion of the payee that we have been talking about was of a latin american or spanish type? mr. lewis. yes; that i do recall. mr. hubert. by that, you mean what? mr. lewis. dark complexioned, and just looked of spanish descent. mr. hubert. latin american? mr. lewis. latin american descent. mr. hubert. they were speaking english? mr. lewis. normal speech in english. mr. hubert. did you notice any spanish accent? mr. lewis. the fellow had a spanish accent. mr. hubert. he was accompanied by the boy with a spanish accent? mr. lewis. yes. mr. hubert. do you recall anything else that happened? mr. lewis. no, sir; i wasn't paying much attention to him. mr. hubert. i don't mean the exact conversation, but just the general situation. mr. lewis. no; i wouldn't know. mr. hubert. how would you describe the person of spanish accent insofar as build and size and weight? mr. lewis. he was of short and slender build. mr. hubert. shorter than the payee? mr. lewis. about the same. mr. hubert. about the same weight? mr. lewis. approximately, yes. mr. hubert. do you remember how he was dressed? mr. lewis. no, sir. mr. hubert. do you recall how much the money order was for? mr. lewis. no; it was for a small amount. i don't recall the exact amount. mr. hubert. you had never had any other business with this payee before? mr. lewis. no, sir. mr. hubert. you didn't have any afterward? mr. lewis. no, sir. mr. hubert. and hamblen did not mention to you that he had had any before? mr. lewis. no, sir. the first time i knew about that was when we went into our district manager's office. mr. hubert. now, i show you a picture which i have marked for identification on the back thereof on the lower right-hand corner the following words: "dallas, tex., july , , exhibit no. of aubrey l. lewis." i ask you if this picture resembles the person that you have been testifying about as the payee on the occasion you have mentioned? mr. lewis. i couldn't say if it resembled him. mr. hubert. you have no recollection whether it looks like him at all? mr. lewis. i sure don't. mr. hubert. you said he had dark hair? mr. lewis. that is true. he had dark hair, but as far as any features, i don't remember the eyes or nose or anything. i don't recall them. mr. hubert. you don't recall, as i understand from your statement, that the man's name was oswald? mr. lewis. no, sir; i do not recall that. mr. hubert. you are familiar with the fact that mr. hamblen says he was oswald? mr. lewis. yes; i am familiar with that. mr. hubert. but you don't remember? mr. lewis. i don't remember. mr. hubert. you cannot tell us now whether or not the picture shown in exhibit no. , which in fact is a picture of lee harvey oswald, was the man you have been testifying about as the payee of that money order? mr. lewis. i couldn't say for sure. mr. hubert. can you say for sure either way that it was or it was not? mr. lewis. no; i can't be sure. mr. hubert. in other words, it could be and it could not be? mr. lewis. yes, sir; it could be and it couldn't be. i have no way of knowing. mr. hubert. you will not say it was not that man? mr. lewis. i wouldn't say it wasn't, but i wouldn't say it was, because it could be. i don't know. mr. hubert. do you recall making any comments to mr. hamblen on the occasion that you have been testifying about, and after this payee had left, that you would like to punch the heads of people of this character? mr. lewis. yes; i made that statement. mr. hubert. you made that statement to mr. hamblen? mr. lewis. yes, sir. mr. hubert. why was that? mr. lewis. well, he is just a person that kind of gives you a bad time. you can do without that kind. you don't have time to fool with them. mr. hubert. now when did it first come to your attention that it was possible that the man that had dealings with you, as you have testified, might be lee harvey oswald? mr. lewis. mr. hamblen, after i had gone back on my job quite sometime, called me at home one night and asked me did i recall when i had paid that party, and i told him i recalled it. and he asked me did i recognize him as being oswald, and i said, "no, i have never put it together." i just never did. and i still can't picture the two. i had forgotten all about it. mr. hubert. when was it that hamblen approached you, as you say he did, and asked you about this? mr. lewis. i don't recall the date, but it was a couple of weeks after the assassination, after he was killed. mr. hubert. you say then it was about the first week in december? mr. lewis. i would say somewhere along in there. i am not for sure, but it was a short time span. mr. hubert. would it thus have been about months after you had had this episode, that this episode occurred between you and this man? mr. lewis. yes, sir. mr. hubert. then your memory did not associate the payee with lee harvey oswald? mr. lewis. no, sir. mr. hubert. at that time had you been shown or looked at pictures of lee harvey oswald? mr. lewis. i had seen him on tv. mr. hubert. have you at any time prior to today been shown a picture of lee harvey oswald as i have shown it to you? mr. lewis. i don't recall if mr. wilcox had one or not. i am not sure. but i saw it in the newspapers and on tv, and i don't recall seeing one that day. i could have. he possibly had one. mr. hubert. what i am talking about is the day that inquiry was focused upon the possibility of this payee as lee harvey oswald. were you then shown a picture and asked if it was that man as i have done today? mr. lewis. i believe i was. i am not for sure, but i believe mr. wilcox had one at the time. mr. hubert. i think you have described the identification card which this payee ultimately produced and which you ultimately recognized? mr. lewis. yes, sir. mr. hubert. i believe you said it was a navy id card? mr. lewis. it was a little release card you get when you get out of the service. mr. hubert. did it have a picture on it? mr. lewis. no, sir. it just had his name and some of them have serial numbers and some of them don't. mr. hubert. so the identification established then was that the person who held the telegram also held a card addressed to the payee of the telegram? mr. lewis. yes. mr. hubert. did he have a library card as well? mr. lewis. i believe it was a library card also. mr. hubert. that didn't have any picture? mr. lewis. that didn't have a picture; no. this id that he had wasn't very good at all, as far as we considered identification to pay money orders. mr. hubert. why not? mr. lewis. we like to have pictures on identification and some legal papers, you might say; insurance and driver's license. mr. hubert. driver's license? mr. lewis. driver's license; yes. mr. hubert. did you ask for that? mr. lewis. i asked for it, and he didn't have any. mr. hubert. did he say he didn't drive? mr. lewis. he didn't make comment. he said he didn't have any license. mr. hubert. you think it was about a half hour after the first episode that he returned with the other identification? mr. lewis. yes, sir. mr. hubert. was the latin american looking person with him on both occasions? mr. lewis. both occasions; yes. mr. hubert. all right, sir, have you anything to add? mr. lewis. no, sir. mr. hubert. i think you made reference to the fact that the check from the western union, which was the subject of this whole episode, had been purchased by someone and payable to the payee involved at the cotton exchange branch? mr. lewis. cotton exchange branch. mr. hubert. is that in dallas? mr. lewis. yes, sir; it is in the cotton exchange building. i think it is on north ervay.[f] mr. hubert. all right, sir, i ask you whether you concur with me that since i have met you today, which was the first time we ever met, there has been no conversation between us other than that which has been covered in the deposition in one way or another, is that correct? mr. lewis. that's correct. mr. hubert. thank you very much, sir. mr. lewis. thank you, sir. [f] north st. paul, one block from ervay and ymca. testimony of dean adams andrews jr. the testimony of dean adams andrews, jr., was taken on july , , at the old civil courts building, royal and conti streets, new orleans, la., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. dean andrews, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: mr. liebeler. mr. andrews, as you know by now, i am an attorney on the staff of the president's commission. i have been authorized to take your deposition pursuant to authority granted to the commission by executive order no. , dated november , , and joint resolution of congress, no. . i understand that the secret service served a subpena on you last week to be here today, so you have had the requisite notice for the proceeding. as you are a member of the bar--as you know, of course, you are entitled to counsel, but you can probably forego that if you want to. you also know that you have all the usual privileges not to answer questions on the grounds of incrimination and whatever other privileges you might have and want to exercise. mr. liebeler. would you state your full name for the record, please. mr. andrews. dean, and the middle initial is a, a for adams, andrews, jr. mr. liebeler. i am correct, am i not, that you are a member of the bar of louisiana? mr. andrews. i am a member of the bar of the state of louisiana. mr. liebeler. and you regularly practice law in the city of new orleans? mr. andrews. that's my office; yes. mr. liebeler. where do you live? mr. andrews. metairie lawn drive. that's in metairie, la. mr. liebeler. metairie lawn drive in metairie? mr. andrews. yes. mr. liebeler. where do you maintain your offices? mr. andrews. maison blanche building, new orleans. mr. liebeler. i am advised by the fbi that you told them that lee harvey oswald came into your office some time during the summer of . would you tell us in your own words just what happened as far as that is concerned? mr. andrews. i don't recall the dates, but briefly, it is this: oswald came in the office accompanied by some gay kids. they were mexicanos. he wanted to find out what could be done in connection with a discharge, a yellow paper discharge, so i explained to him he would have to advance the funds to transcribe whatever records they had up in the adjutant general's office. when he brought the money, i would do the work, and we saw him three or four times subsequent to that, not in the company of the gay kids. he had this mexicano with him. i assume he is a mex because the latins do not wear a butch haircut. mr. liebeler. the first time he came in he was with these mexicans, and there were also some gay kids. by that, of course, you mean people that appeared to you to be homosexuals? mr. andrews. well, they swish. what they are, i don't know. we call them gay kids. mr. liebeler. had you ever seen any of those kids before? mr. andrews. none of them. mr. liebeler. have you seen any of them since? mr. andrews. since the first time they came in? mr. liebeler. since the first time they came in? mr. andrews. yes. mr. liebeler. you have? mr. andrews. yes. mr. liebeler. did they ever come back with oswald? mr. andrews. no; mexicanos came back. mr. liebeler. where did you see these gay kids after the first time? mr. andrews. first district precinct. police picked them up for wearing clothes of the opposite sex. mr. liebeler. how many of them were there? mr. andrews. about . mr. liebeler. they weren't all with oswald, were they? mr. andrews. no; oswald--you see, they made what they call a scoop and put them all in the pokey. i went down for the ones i represented. they were in the holding pavilion. i paroled them and got them out. mr. liebeler. you do represent from time to time some of these gay kids, is that correct? mr. andrews. yes. mr. liebeler. you say that some of the gay kids that you saw at the time the police arrested this large group of them for wearing clothes of the opposite sex were the ones that had been with oswald? mr. andrews. yes. mr. liebeler. were you able to identify them by name? mr. andrews. no; you see, they just--we don't even open up files on them. we don't open a file. we mark what we call a working file. we make a few notes and put it in the general week's work. if you come back and the office is retained, we make a permanent file and--but these kids come and go like--you know. mr. liebeler. when were these people picked up by the police as you have told us? mr. andrews. let me think. some time in may. i went and checked the records. i couldn't find nothing on it. i believe it's may of . mr. liebeler. they were picked up in may of ? mr. andrews. on friday. mr. liebeler. that was after oswald had been in your office? mr. andrews. after oswald's initial contact. i think he had come back with this mexicano one more time. mr. liebeler. before these people were arrested? mr. andrews. yes; then the second time he came back, we talked about the yellow paper discharge, about his status as a citizen, and about his wife's status. mr. liebeler. now before we get into that, let me try and pin down how long it was after the first time oswald came in that these kids all got arrested. all of them for wearing these clothes? mr. andrews. i don't know it was . that i can't remember. mr. liebeler. was it a month? two months? a week? mr. andrews. no; it wasn't that. ten days at the most. mr. liebeler. i suppose the new orleans police department files would reflect the dates these people were picked up? mr. andrews. i checked the first district's blotter and the people are there, but i just can't get their names. you see, they wear names just like you and i wear clothes. today their name is candy; tomorrow it is butsie; next day it is mary. you never know what they are. names are a very improbable method of identification. more sight. like you see a dog. he is black and white. that's your dog. you know them by sight mostly. mr. liebeler. do you remember what date it was that that large arrest was made? mr. andrews. no; every friday is arrest day in new orleans. they clean them all up. the shotgun squad keeps the riots, the mugging, and all the humbug out. they have been doing that very effectively. you can pick just any friday. mr. liebeler. this was on a friday? mr. andrews. it had to be a friday or saturday. mr. liebeler. in may of ? mr. andrews. yes. mr. liebeler. after you saw these kids at this big pickup on friday or saturday, did you ever see any of them again after that? mr. andrews. no; still looking for them. they owe me a fee. mr. liebeler. they are always the hardest ones to find. mr. andrews. they usually pay. they are screwed in. mr. liebeler. what did oswald say to you about his own citizenship status? you say that he mentioned that the second time he came back. what did he talk to you about in that regard? mr. andrews. they came in usually after hours, about , : , and as i recall, he had alleged that he had abandoned his citizenship. he didn't say how; he didn't say where. i assumed that he was one of the people who wanted to join the free world and--i represented one or two of them. they had belonged to the world citizenship--i explained to him there are certain steps he had to do, such as taking an oath of loyalty to a foreign power, voting in a foreign country election, or some method that is recognized defectively as loss of citizenship. then i told him, "your presence in the united states is proof you are a citizen. otherwise, you would be an alien with an alien registration with a green card, form ." mr. liebeler. had he told you he had been out of the country? mr. andrews. yes. mr. liebeler. did he tell you where he had gone? mr. andrews. no. mr. liebeler. since he had been out of the country, the fact that he was back and didn't have an alien card was proof he was a citizen? mr. andrews. yes. mr. liebeler. do you remember any other part of the conversation? mr. andrews. when he asked the questions--i don't know which visit it was--about citizenship of his wife, i asked the birthplace or origin cited for citizenship purposes--that's what counts--and he said russia, so i just assumed he had met someone somewhere, some place, either in russia or in europe, married them, and brought them over here as a gi, a gi bride, and wanted to go through the routine of naturalization, which is years after lawful admission into the united states if you are married, and five years if you are not, maintain the status here in the states cumulatively for years. mr. liebeler. did he indicate that he wanted to institute citizenship proceedings for his wife? mr. andrews. yes; i told him to go to immigration and get the forms. cost him $ . all he had to do was execute them. he didn't need a lawyer. that was the end of that. mr. liebeler. how many times did he come into your office? mr. andrews. minimum of three, maximum of five, counting initial visit. mr. liebeler. and did you talk about different subjects at different times? as i understand it, the first time he came there, he was primarily concerned about his discharge, is that correct? mr. andrews. well, i may have the subject matter of the visits reversed because with the company he kept and the conversation--he could talk fairly well--i figured that this was another one of what we call in my office free alley clients, so we didn't maintain the normalcy with the file that--might have scratched a few notes on a piece of pad, and days later threw the whole thing away. didn't pay too much attention to him. only time i really paid attention to this boy, he was in the front of the maison blanche building giving out these kooky castro things. mr. liebeler. when was this, approximately? mr. andrews. i don't remember. i was coming from the nbc building, and i walked past him. you know how you see somebody, recognize him. so i turned around, came back, and asked him what he was doing giving that junk out. he said it was a job. i reminded him of the $ he owed the office. he said he would come over there, but he never did. mr. liebeler. did he tell you that he was getting paid to hand out this literature? mr. andrews. yes. mr. liebeler. did he tell you how much? mr. andrews. no. mr. liebeler. do you remember telling the fbi that he told you that he was being paid $ a day for handing out these leaflets? mr. andrews. i could have told them that. i know i reminded him of the $ . i may have it confused, the $ . what i do recall, he said it was a job. i guess i asked him how much he was making. they were little square chits a little bit smaller than the picture you have of him over there [indicating]. mr. liebeler. he was handing out these leaflets? mr. andrews. they were black-and-white pamphlets extolling the virtues of castro, which around here doesn't do too good. they have a lot of guys, mexicanos and cubanos, that will tear your head off if they see you fooling with these things. mr. liebeler. what were they like? mr. andrews. they were pamphlets, single-sheet pamphlets. mr. liebeler. just one sheet? it wasn't a booklet? mr. andrews. no. mr. liebeler. what color were the pamphlets? you say it was white paper? mr. andrews. white paper offset with black. mr. liebeler. could it have been yellow paper? mr. andrews. i am totally colorblind. i wouldn't know. but i think it is black and white. mr. liebeler. you are colorblind? mr. andrews. yes. most of them wanted it around there. you give it to them, the people look at it and they drop it, right now. mr. liebeler. do you remember what day of the week this was that you saw him handing this stuff out? mr. andrews. it was in the middle of the week, around tuesday or wednesday. mr. liebeler. where is the maison blanche building? what street is it on? mr. andrews. canal street. it is on this side. it is bounded by dauphine and burgundy. mr. liebeler. how far is it from the international trade mart? mr. andrews. it depends on what route you take. if you come up camp street, it would be two blocks to canal and four blocks toward the cemetery; so it would be about six blocks. it would be six blocks no matter which way you went, but you would walk four blocks on common street or gravier, and then two blocks over the other way. mr. liebeler [handing picture to witness]. i show you a picture that has been marked as "garner exhibit no. ," and ask you if you recognize the individual in that picture and the street scene, if you are familiar with it. mr. andrews. this is oswald. mr. liebeler. that's the fellow who was in your office? mr. andrews. yes. mr. liebeler. do you have any doubt about that in your mind? mr. andrews. i don't believe; no. this is him. i just can't place it. this isn't where i saw him. this is probably around the vicinity of the international trade mart. mr. liebeler [handing picture to witness]. i show you another picture that has been marked for identification as "bringuier exhibit no. ," and ask you if you recognize anybody in that picture and the street scene. mr. andrews. oswald is marked with an x, and a client of mine is over here on the right-hand side. mr. liebeler. is that a a paying client or what? mr. andrews. no; paying client [indicating]. and this dress belongs to a girl friend. mr. liebeler. which one is your client? mr. andrews. it should be three. there's two sisters and this young lady [indicating]. mr. liebeler. what's her name? mr. andrews. i don't remember. mr. liebeler. you are referring to the woman that appears on the far right-hand side of the picture with a handbag on her arm? mr. andrews. yes. mr. liebeler. now you say oswald is marked with an x, and you identify that as the man that you saw in your office and the same man you saw passing out pamphlets? mr. andrews. yes. mr. liebeler. i call your attention specifically to the second man who is standing behind oswald to his right and facing toward the front wearing a white, short-sleeved shirt and necktie, who also appears to have some leaflets in his hand. have you ever seen that man before? mr. andrews. the mexicano that i associate oswald with is approximately the same height, with the exception that he has a pronounced short butch haircut. he is stocky, well built. mr. liebeler. the fellow that i have indicated to you on "bringuier exhibit no. " is too slightly built to be associated with oswald; is that correct? mr. andrews. he is stocky. has what they call an athletic build. mr. liebeler. was this other fellow taller than oswald or shorter than oswald? mr. andrews. very close. not taller. probably same height; maybe a little smaller. mr. liebeler. how much would you say the mexican weighed, approximately? mr. andrews. about , . mr. liebeler. you say he was of medium build or heavy build? mr. andrews. well, stocky. he could go to "fist city" pretty good if he had to. mr. liebeler. how old would you say he was? mr. andrews. about . hard to tell. mr. liebeler. do you remember what he was wearing when he came into the office with oswald on these different occasions? mr. andrews. normally, different colored silk pongee shirts, which are pretty rare, you know, for the heat, or what appeared to be pongee material. mr. liebeler. did you ever talk to this other fellow? mr. andrews. well, he talked spanish, and all i told him was poco poco. that was it. mr. liebeler. do you speak spanish? mr. andrews. i can understand a little. i can if you speak it. i can read it. that's about all. mr. liebeler [handing picture to witness]. i show you a picture which has been marked "frank pizzo exhibit no. -c," and ask you if that is the same man that was in your office and the same man you say was passing out literature in the street. mr. andrews. it appears to be. mr. liebeler. would you recognize this mexican again if you saw him? mr. andrews. yes. mr. liebeler. do you remember telling the fbi that you wouldn't be able to recognize him again if you saw him? mr. andrews. probably did. been a long time. there's three people i am going to find: one of them is the real guy that killed the president; the mexican; and clay bertrand. mr. liebeler. do you mean to suggest by that statement that you have considerable doubt in your mind that oswald killed the president? mr. andrews. i know good and well he did not. with that weapon, he couldn't have been capable of making three controlled shots in that short time. mr. liebeler. you are basing your opinion on reports that you have received over news media as to how many shots were fired in what period of time; is that correct? mr. andrews. i am basing my opinion on five years as an ordnanceman in the navy. you can lean into those things, and with throwing the bolts--if i couldn't do it myself, hours a day, doing this for a living, constantly on the range, i know this civilian couldn't do it. he might have been a sharp marksman at one time, but if you don't lean into that rifle and don't squeeze and control consistently, your brain can tell you how to do it, but you don't have the capability. mr. liebeler. you have used a pronoun in this last series of statements, the pronoun "it." you are making certain assumptions as to what actually happened, or you have a certain notion in your mind as to what happened based on material you read in the newspaper? mr. andrews. it doesn't make any difference. what you have to do is lean into a weapon, and, to fire three shots controlled with accuracy, this boy couldn't do it. forget the president. mr. liebeler. you base that judgment on the fact that, in your own experience, it is difficult to do that sort of thing? mr. andrews. you have to stay with it. you just don't pick up a rifle or a pistol or whatever weapon you are using and stay proficient with it. you have to know what you are doing. you have to be a conniver. this boy could have connived the deal, but i think he is a patsy. somebody else pulled the trigger. mr. liebeler. however, as we have indicated, it is your opinion. you don't have any evidence other than what you have already told us about your surmise and opinions about the rifle on which to base that statement; is that correct? if you do, i want to know what it is. mr. andrews. if i did, i would give it to you. it's just taking the years and thinking about it a bit. i have fired as much as , rounds of ammo a day for days a week. you get pretty good with it as long as you keep firing. then i have gone back after weeks. i used to be able to take a shotgun, go on a skeet, and pop out of . after weeks, i could only pop of them. i would have to start shooting again, same way with the rifle and machineguns. every other person i knew, same thing happened to them. you just have to stay at it. mr. liebeler. now, did you see oswald at any time subsequent to that time you saw him in the street handing out literature? mr. andrews. i have never seen him since. mr. liebeler. can you tell us what month that was, approximately? mr. andrews. summertime. before july. i think the last time would be around--the last could have been, i guess, around the th of july. mr. liebeler. around the th of july? mr. andrews. i don't believe it was after that. it could have been before, but not after. mr. liebeler. now, you mentioned this mexican that accompanied oswald to your office. have you seen him at any time subsequent to the last time oswald came into your office? mr. andrews. no. mr. liebeler. can you tell us approximately how long a period of time elapsed from the last time oswald came into your office to the last time you saw him in the street handing out literature? mr. andrews. i would say about weeks, just guessing. mr. liebeler. and you have never seen the mexican at any other time since then? mr. andrews. no. he just couldn't have disappeared because the mexican community here is pretty small. you can squeeze it pretty good, the latin community. he is not known around here. mr. liebeler. have you made an attempt to find him since the assassination? mr. andrews. yes. mr. liebeler. and you haven't had any success? mr. andrews. no. not too many places they can go not being noticed. mr. liebeler. was there anybody else with oswald that day you saw him handing out literature? mr. andrews. oh, people standing there with him. whether they were with him or not, i wouldn't know. mr. liebeler. did it appear that there was anybody else helping him hand out literature? mr. andrews. there was one person, but they had no literature. they weren't giving anything out. let me see that picture of that little bitty guy, that weasel before. mr. liebeler. [handing picture to witness]. this is bringuier exhibit no. . mr. andrews. no; he resembled this boy, but it is not him. it is a pale face instead of a latin. mr. liebeler. when you talked to oswald on the street that day, did he give you any idea who was paying him to hand this stuff out? mr. andrews. no; he just said, "it's a job." mr. liebeler. my understanding is, of course, that you are here under subpena and subpena duces tecum, asking you to bring with you any records that you might have in your office indicating or reflecting oswald's visit, and my understanding is that you indicated that you were unable to find any such records. mr. andrews. right. my office was rifled shortly after i got out of the hospital, and i talked with the fbi people. we couldn't find anything prior to it. whoever was kind enough to mess my office up, going through it, we haven't found anything since. mr. liebeler. you have caused a thorough search to be made of your office for these records? mr. andrews. yes. mr. liebeler. you haven't been able to come up with anything? mr. andrews. no. mr. liebeler. did there come a time after the assassination when you had some further involvement with oswald, or at least an apparent involvement with oswald; as i understand it? mr. andrews. no; nothing at all with oswald. i was in hotel dieu, and the phone rang and a voice i recognized as clay bertrand asked me if i would go to dallas and houston--i think--dallas, i guess, wherever it was that this boy was being held--and defend him. i told him i was sick in the hospital. if i couldn't go, i would find somebody that could go. mr. liebeler. you told him you were sick in the hospital and what? mr. andrews. that's where i was when the call came through. it came through the hospital switchboard. i said that i wasn't in shape enough to go to dallas and defend him and i would see what i could do. mr. liebeler. now what can you tell us about this clay bertrand? you met him prior to that time? mr. andrews. i had seen clay bertrand once some time ago, probably a couple of years. he's the one who calls in behalf of gay kids normally, either to obtain bond or parole for them. i would assume that he was the one that originally sent oswald and the gay kids, these mexicanos, to the office because i had never seen those people before at all. they were just walk-ins. mr. liebeler. you say that you think you saw clay bertrand some time about years prior to the time you received this telephone call that you have just told us about? mr. andrews. yes; he is mostly a voice on the phone. mr. liebeler. what day did you receive the telephone call from clay bertrand asking you to defend oswald? mr. andrews. i don't remember. it was a friday or a saturday. mr. liebeler. immediately following the assassination? mr. andrews. i don't know about that. i didn't know. yes; i did. i guess i did because i was--they told me i was squirrelly in the hospital. mr. liebeler. you had pneumonia; is that right? mr. andrews. yes. mr. liebeler. and as i understand it, you were under heavy sedation at that time in connection with your treatment for pneumonia? mr. andrews. yes; this is what happened: after i got the call, i called my secretary at her home and asked her if she had remembered lee harvey oswald's file. of course, she didn't remember, and i had to tell her about all the kooky kids. she thought we had a file in the office. i would assume that he would have called subsequent to this boy's arrest. i am pretty sure it was before the assassination. i don't know. mr. liebeler. you don't mean before the assassination--don't you mean before oswald had been shot? after the assassination and before oswald had been shot? mr. andrews. after oswald's arrest and prior to his---- mr. liebeler. his death? mr. andrews. his death. mr. liebeler. now my recollection from reviewing reports from the fbi is that you first advised the fbi of this, telling them that you recall that clay bertrand had called you at some time between o'clock and o'clock in the evening and spoke to you about this matter. do you remember telling the fbi about that? mr. andrews. i remember speaking with them. the exact words, i do not, but that's probably correct. mr. liebeler. do you remember what time approximately that clay bertrand did call you? mr. andrews. i will tell you: they feed around : . by the time i got fed, it was about o'clock. they picked the tray up. so that's about the right time. it's around that time. mr. liebeler. now you said that after clay bertrand called you, you called your secretary and asked her if she remembered the oswald file; is that correct? mr. andrews. yes; she didn't remember oswald at all. she knows that occasionally these people walk in and out of the office and she had remembered something, but nothing of any value. mr. liebeler. and do you remember that after you got out of the hospital, you discussed with your secretary the telephone call that you made to her at home? mr. andrews. yes. mr. liebeler. and do you recall that she said that she remembered that you called her at approximately o'clock on the afternoon of november , ? mr. andrews. yes. mr. liebeler. now have you--let's take it one step further: do you also recall the fact that your private investigator spent most of that afternoon with you in your hospital room? mr. andrews. yes; he was there. mr. liebeler. he was there with you? mr. andrews. yes; preston m. davis. mr. liebeler. do you remember approximately what time he left? mr. andrews. no. mr. liebeler. would it have been before you called your secretary or afterwards? mr. andrews. yes. mr. liebeler. before you called? mr. andrews. no; after. mr. liebeler. after you called your secretary? mr. andrews. let's see. he wasn't there when i made the phone call. he wasn't there when clay bertrand called me, i am pretty sure, because he would have remembered it if i didn't. mr. liebeler. you discussed it and he doesn't, in fact, remember that you received the telephone call from clay bertrand? mr. andrews. he wasn't there. while he was there, we received no call from clay bertrand or no call concerning the office or business because i would have talked to him about it. mr. liebeler. you say that he left before you called your secretary? mr. andrews. i think he left around chow time, which, i think, is around o'clock. i could be wrong. mr. liebeler. now after giving this time sequence that we have talked about here the consideration that i am sure you have after discussing it with the fbi, have you come up with any solution in your own mind to the apparent problems that exist here? that is to say, that your recollection is that you called your secretary after you received the call from clay bertrand and you called your secretary at o'clock, which would indicate that you must have received the call from clay bertrand prior to o'clock, but you did not receive the call from mr. bertrand while mr. davis was there, and he left at approximately o'clock or shortly before you called your secretary, in addition to which, you first recall receiving the call from clay bertrand some time between o'clock and o'clock in the evening. mr. andrews. well, the time factor i can't help you with. it is impossible. but i feel this: i wouldn't have called my secretary--if i couldn't get her to verify it, i would tell you that i was smoking weed. you know, sailing out on cloud . mr. liebeler. but, in fact, she did verify the fact that you did call her? mr. andrews. yes; i often thought it was a nightmare or a dream, but it isn't. it's just that i can't place--other than what i told regis kennedy and john rice, the exact time i can't help you on. but if it hadn't been for calling her and asking her---- mr. liebeler. to look up the oswald file or if she remembered the oswald file? mr. andrews. yes; i would just say i have a pretty vivid imagination and let's just forget it. anything other than the law practice--i would say that what regis suspects is that i was full of that dope, but i normally take certain steps, and this is the way i would have done it is what i did. i called her. had davis been there when the call came in, davis would have been told, and he would have left the hospital, went down to the office, and shook the office down for the file, and called me from there before he went home. i know it couldn't have come in while he was there. the only media of time that i can use is either medication or food. of course, being fat, i like food. i wasn't much interested in food. they weren't feeding me too much, and i am pretty sure it was after medication and food and the tray had been picked up that the call came in. mr. liebeler. of course, they fed you more than once up there? mr. andrews. they feed three times a day, but they don't feed you enough to keep a sparrow alive. mr. liebeler. well, in any event, you are not able to clarify for us the sequence of what happened? mr. andrews. well, the sequence of events had to be this: davis spent saturday afternoon with me. he probably left just before chow, and then i ate, and the phone call came in some time after chow. i am positive it wasn't as late as o'clock. i think the latest it could have been is , but miss springer says i called her some time around , : --i don't know which. mr. liebeler. miss springer is your secretary? mr. andrews. yes. mr. liebeler. now do you recall talking to an fbi agent, regis l. kennedy, and carl l. schlaeger on november ? mr. andrews. i don't remember--kennedy, yes; schlaeger, no. i don't even know if he was in the same room. i don't think i have even seen him, much less talk to him. mr. liebeler. kennedy was; yes? mr. andrews. yes. mr. liebeler. they usually go around in pairs? mr. andrews. well, they work in teams, so he's got to have been there. mr. liebeler. now kennedy came and visited you at the hospital; is that correct? mr. andrews. right. mr. liebeler. now---- mr. andrews. i remember that pretty good because i called the feebees, and the guy says to put the phone, you know, and nothing happened. mr. liebeler. the feebees? mr. andrews. that's what we call the federal guys. all of a sudden, like a big hurricane, here they come. mr. liebeler. do you remember telling him at that time that you thought that clay bertrand had come into the office with oswald when oswald had been in the office earlier last spring? mr. andrews. no; i don't remember. mr. liebeler. was bertrand ever in the office with oswald? mr. andrews. not that i remember. mr. liebeler. do you have a picture in your mind of this clay bertrand? mr. andrews. oh, i ran up on that rat about weeks ago and he spooked, ran in the street. i would have beat him with a chain if i had caught him. mr. liebeler. let me ask you this: when i was down here in april, before i talked to you about this thing, and i was going to take your deposition at that time, but we didn't make arrangements, in your continuing discussions with the fbi, you finally came to the conclusion that clay bertrand was a figment of your imagination? mr. andrews. that's what the feebees put on. i know that the two feebees are going to put these people on the street looking, and i can't find the guy, and i am not going to tie up all the agents on something that isn't that solid. i told them, "write what you want, that i am nuts. i don't care." they were running on the time factor, and the hills were shook up plenty to get it, get it, get it. i couldn't give it to them. i have been playing cops and robbers with them. you can tell when the steam is on. they are on you like the plague. they never leave. they are like cancer. eternal. mr. liebeler. that was the description of the situation? mr. andrews. it was my decision if they were to stay there. if i decide yes, they stay. if i decide no, they go. so i told them, "close your file and go some place else." that's the real reason why it was done. i don't know what they wrote in the report, but that's the real reason. mr. liebeler. now subsequent to that time, however, you actually ran into clay bertrand in the street? mr. andrews. about weeks ago. i am trying to think of the name of this bar. that's where this rascal bums out. i was trying to get past him so i could get a nickel in the phone and call the feebees or john rice, but he saw me and spooked and ran. i haven't seen him since. mr. liebeler. did you talk to him that day? mr. andrews. no; if i would have got close enough to talk to him, i would have grabbed him. mr. liebeler. what does this guy look like? mr. andrews. he is about feet inches. got sandy hair, blue eyes, ruddy complexion. must weigh about , , . he really took off, that rascal. mr. liebeler. he recognized you? mr. andrews. he had to because if he would have let me get to that phone and make the call, he would be in custody. mr. liebeler. you wanted to get hold of this guy and make him available to the fbi for interview, or mr. rice of the secret service? mr. andrews. what i wanted to do and should have done is crack him in the head with a bottle, but i figured i would be a good, law-abiding citizen and call them and let them grab him, but i made the biggest mistake of the century. i should have grabbed him right there. i probably will never find him again. he has been bugging me ever since this happened. mr. liebeler. now before you ran into clay bertrand in the street on this day, did you have a notion in your mind what he looked like? mr. andrews. i had seen him before one time to recognize him. mr. liebeler. when you saw him that day, he appeared to you as he had before when you recognized him? mr. andrews. he hasn't changed any appearance, i don't think. maybe a little fatter, maybe a little skinnier. mr. liebeler. now i have a rather lengthy report of an interview that mr. kennedy had with you on december , , in which he reports you as stating that you had a mental picture of clay bertrand as being approximately feet inch to feet inches in height, brown hair, and well dressed. mr. andrews. yes. mr. liebeler. now this description is different, at least in terms of height of the man, than the one you have just given us of clay bertrand. mr. andrews. but, you know, i don't play boy scouts and measure them. i have only seen this fellow twice in my life. i don't think there is that much in the description. there may be some to some artist, but to me, there isn't that much difference. might be for you all. mr. liebeler. i think you said he was feet inches before. mr. andrews. well, i can't give you any better because this time i was looking for the fellow, he was sitting down. i am just estimating. you meet a guy years ago, you meet him, period. mr. liebeler. which time was he sitting down? mr. andrews. he was standing up first time. mr. liebeler. i thought you met him on the street the second time when you---- mr. andrews. no, he was in a barroom. mr. liebeler. he was sitting in a bar when you saw him weeks ago? mr. andrews. a table at the right-hand side. i go there every now and then spooking for him. mr. liebeler. what's the name of the bar you saw him in that day, do you remember? mr. andrews. cosimo's, used to be. little freaky joint. mr. liebeler. well, now, if you didn't see him standing up on that day---- mr. andrews. no. mr. liebeler. so that you didn't have any basis on which to change your mental picture of this man in regard to his height from the first one that you had? mr. andrews. no. mr. liebeler. i am at a loss to understand why you told agent kennedy on december that he was feet to feet and now you have told us that he was feet when at no time did you see the man standing up. mr. andrews. because, i guess, the first time--and i am guessing now---- mr. liebeler. is this fellow a homosexual, do you say? mr. andrews. bisexual. what they call a swinging cat. mr. liebeler. and you haven't seen him at any time since that day? mr. andrews. i haven't seen him since. mr. liebeler. now have you had your office searched for any records relating to clay bertrand? mr. andrews. yes. mr. liebeler. have you found anything? mr. andrews. no; nothing. mr. liebeler. has this fellow bertrand sent you business in the past? mr. andrews. prior to--i guess the last time would be february of . mr. liebeler. and mostly he refers, i think you said, these gay kids, is that right? mr. andrews. right. mr. liebeler. in discussing this matter with your private detective, mr. davis, and miss springer, your secretary, have you asked them whether or not they have any recollection of ever having seen oswald in the office? mr. andrews. davis does; springer doesn't. mr. liebeler. davis does have a recollection? mr. andrews. yes; he recalls. he usually stays with me until about closing time. we review whatever he is doing, and he remembers them as a group. mr. liebeler. so he was there then the first time they were there? the only time that he was with a group is the first time, is that right? mr. andrews. right. mr. liebeler. have you discussed with miss springer and mr. davis the whereabouts or any recollection they might have about clay bertrand? mr. andrews. they weren't with me, i believe, at the time i knew bertrand. mr. liebeler. have you discussed it with them? mr. andrews. yes; but they weren't employed by me at the time i knew him. mr. liebeler. so they have no recollection of bertrand? mr. andrews. no. mr. liebeler. when oswald came into your office, of course, he told you what his name was, didn't he? mr. andrews. lee oswald. i don't know whether that's his name or not. mr. liebeler. but that's what he told you? mr. andrews. that's what he told me. mr. liebeler. do you remember discussing or mentioning his name to davis at any time prior to november , ? mr. andrews. what the procedure is--i am in a different office now than i was then, and it was a very small office, and they would come into it--well, what i would call my office--and they just had the reception room out in the front, and davis would go out there, and on those matters, it's not a matter that he would be discussing, but probably some words passed as to the swishing and the characteristics that they had, but other than that in the business, unless something is assigned to him, he knows nothing in that office unless it is assigned to him. mr. liebeler. so you say you probably did not mention oswald's name to davis? mr. andrews. i probably did not, other than we commented on the group in general, but none of the business that was involved or any names. mr. liebeler. is it an extraordinary thing for a bunch of gay kids to come into your office like that, or did they come from time to time? mr. andrews. well, let's see. last week there were six of them in there. depends on how bad the police are rousing them. they shoo them in. my best customers are the police. they shoo them into the office. god bless the police. mr. liebeler. did you ever know a man by the name of kerry thornley as one of these gay kids? mr. andrews. no. mr. liebeler. have you ever heard of thornley? mr. andrews. no; i represent them and that's about all there is to it. when they owe me money, i know where to go grab them, and that's about as far as if goes. is he supposed to be down here? mr. liebeler. thornley? mr. andrews. yes; i can find out if he ever made the scene here real easy. mr. liebeler. no; he is not in new orleans, i don't think, at the moment. when oswald told you about his discharge, did he tell you what branch of the service he had been in? mr. andrews. no. mr. liebeler. did he tell you why he got discharged? mr. andrews. no. mr. liebeler. did he tell you what kind of a discharge he had? mr. andrews. he told me he was dishonorably discharged. that's what i call a yellow sheet discharge. i told him i needed his serial number, the service he was in, the approximate time he got discharged, and, i think, $ or $ , i forget which, and to take the service, his rate or rank, the serial number, and to write to the adjutant general for the transcript of the proceedings that washed him out so that they could be examined and see if there was any method of reopening or reconsideration on the file. mr. liebeler. but he did not tell you any of those things? mr. andrews. no; he said he would come back, and he came back, but i still didn't get his serial number and i still didn't get the money. mr. liebeler. do you remember specifically that he stated he had a dishonorable discharge as opposed to some other kind of discharge? do you have a specific recollection on that? mr. andrews. we call them in the navy, b.c.d.'s and i associated that. he never mentioned the specific type discharge. it was one that was other than honorable, as we would put it in the legal sense. i just assumed it was a b.c.d. if he was in the marines or navy. if he was in the army, it's a yellow discharge. mr. liebeler. did he tell you if he was working at that time or if he had a job when he first came into your office? mr. andrews. never asked him. mr. liebeler. did he associate his other than honorable discharge with difficulty in obtaining employment? mr. andrews. i just don't remember. he had a reason why he wanted it reopened. what, i don't recall. he had a reason. i don't recall. he mentioned a reason, but i don't recall. i was trying to remember where they were seated to see if that would help, but no. mr. liebeler. tell me approximately how tall oswald was. mr. andrews. oh, about feet inches, feet inches, i guess. mr. liebeler. and about how much did he weigh? mr. andrews. about , . mr. liebeler. i don't think i have any more questions. do you have anything else that you would like to add? mr. andrews. i wish i could be more specific, that's all. this is my impression, for whatever it is worth, of clay bertrand: his connections with oswald i don't know at all. i think he is a lawyer without a brief case. that's my opinion. he sends the kids different places. whether this boy is associated with lee oswald or not, i don't know, but i would say, when i met him about weeks ago when i ran up on him and he ran away from me, he could be running because he owes me money, or he could be running because they have been squeezing the quarter pretty good looking for him while i was in the hospital, and somebody might have passed the word he was hot and i was looking for him, but i have never been able to figure out the reason why he would call me, and the only other part of this thing that i understand, but apparently i haven't been able to communicate, is i called monk zelden on a sunday at the n.o.a.c. and asked monk if he would go over--be interested in a retainer and go over to dallas and see about that boy. i thought i called monk once. monk says we talked twice. i don't remember the second. it's all one conversation with me. only thing i do remember about it, while i was talking with monk, he said, don't worry about it. your client just got shot. that was the end of the case. even if he was a bona fide client, i never did get to him; somebody else got to him before i did. other than that, that's the whole thing, but this boy bertrand has been bugging me ever since. i will find him sooner or later. mr. liebeler. does bertrand owe you money? mr. andrews. yes; i ain't looking for him for that. i want to find out why he called me on behalf of this boy after the president was assassinated. mr. liebeler. how come bertrand owes you money? mr. andrews. i have done him some legal work that he has failed to pay the office for. mr. liebeler. when was that? mr. andrews. that's in a period of years that i have--like you are bertrand. you call up and ask me to go down and get mr. x out. if mr. x doesn't pay on those kinds of calls, bertrand has a guarantee for the payment of appearance. one or two of these kids had skipped. i had to go pay the penalty, which was a lot of trouble. mr. liebeler. you were going to hold bertrand for that? mr. andrews. yes. mr. liebeler. did oswald appear to you to be gay? mr. andrews. you can't tell. i couldn't say. he swang with the kids. he didn't swish, but birds of a feather flock together. i don't know any squares that run with them. they may go down to look. mr. liebeler. when you say he didn't swish, what do you mean by that? mr. andrews. he is not effeminate; his voice isn't squeaky; he didn't walk like or talk like a girl; he walks and talks like a man. mr. liebeler. did you notice anything about the way he walked? was there anything striking about the way he carried himself? mr. andrews. i never paid attention. i never watched him walk other than into and out of the office. there's nothing that would draw my attention to anything out of the ordinary, but i just assumed that he knew these people and was running with them. they had no reason to come. the three gay kids he was with, they were ostentatious. they were what we call swishers. you can just look at them. all they had to do was open their mouth. that was it. walk, they can swing better than sammy kaye. they do real good. with those pronounced ones, you never know what the relationship is with anyone else with them, but i have no way of telling whether he is gay or not, other than he came in with what they call here queens. that's about it. mr. liebeler. you have never seen any of these people since that first day they came into your office with oswald, that first day and when you saw them down at the police station? mr. andrews. the three queens? the three gay boys? no; i have never seen them. mr. liebeler. there were just three of them? mr. andrews. the latin type. mexicanos will crop their hair and a latin won't, so i assume he is a mex. mr. liebeler. so altogether there were five of them that came into the office? mr. andrews. five. the only other thing that shook me to my toes--you have the other part--the secret service brought me some things. they don't have the complete photograph. they have another photograph with the two realpey sisters. they are actually in the office, and that shook me down to my toes pretty good. mr. liebeler [handing picture to witness]. the picture you refer to might be pizzo exhibit no. -b. is that the one? mr. andrews. yes, this is it. victoria realpey-plaza and her sister marguerite realpey-plaza, and i can't recall this young lady's name here at all [indicating]. mr. liebeler. you are pointing to the three women who are standing---- mr. andrews. the one facing, standing as you look at it. mr. liebeler. that's the one you can't identify? mr. andrews. yes; i have her file in the office. uncle is a warden at the parish prison here in new orleans. mr. liebeler. and you are referring to the three women that are standing at the right side of pizzo exhibit no. -b? mr. andrews. the girl carrying the pocketbook. mr. liebeler. that's the one whose name you can't remember at the moment? mr. andrews. right. mr. liebeler. now this little fellow standing on the far left side of the picture, have you ever seen him before? is he one of those gay boys who were in the office? mr. andrews. no; these were all americanos, these boys. he may be, but he is latin looking. mr. liebeler. he looks like a latin? mr. andrews. right. this boy should be able to be found. i wanted to look for him, but i didn't have a picture of him. mr. liebeler. who is that? mr. andrews. the one you just asked me about. if you put some circulars around to have the latin american people squeezed gently, he has got to be found. they are very clannish. there are only certain places they go. somebody has to remember him. he can't just come into new orleans and disappear. as long as he walks the street, he has to eat and he has to have some place to sleep and--but i didn't have a picture of him, and nobody--you just can't do it. but a lot of water has run under the stream. he may or may not be here, but it wouldn't be too hard to locate him, you know, with the proper identification. mr. liebeler. well, your friends down the street have been trying to find him and haven't come up with him yet. mr. andrews. debrueys? mr. liebeler. yes. mr. andrews. sometimes the stools on that are not too good. they need latin stools for that boy. mr. liebeler. off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. liebeler. did you just indicate that you would like to find mr. bertrand and he did run off? did you see him run off? mr. andrews. yes; i chased him, but i couldn't go. mr. liebeler. this was when you saw him weeks ago? mr. andrews. yes; this barroom is right adjacent to--the street--as you go in, there are two entrances, one on the block side and one on the corner. i had no more idea of finding him than jumping off the bridge. i went in there hoping, and the hope came through. i was so surprised to see him there. i kept working my way there to go to the front when he recognized me and he sprinted out the door on the side of the street and was gone. i had to go past him to go to the phone. i should have conked him with the beer bottle. mr. liebeler. he took off as soon as he saw you? mr. andrews. no; but i was moving to go to the phone. he thought i was moving towards him. mr. liebeler [handing picture to witness]. i show you pizzo exhibit no. -a, and ask you if you can recognize anybody in that picture. mr. andrews. the one that has a brief case under his arm, full face towards the looker, appears to be lee oswald. this boy back here [indicating] appears to be familiar, but i would have to blow his face up to be sure. he is in between. see, this one here [indicating]? i have never seen this picture before. mr. liebeler. between oswald, who has the cross mark over his head, and the man who has the arrow over his head? mr. andrews. he is a local boy here, a face i recall. it would take me a while to place it, but the face appears to be familiar. mr. liebeler. you haven't seen this picture before, is that correct? mr. andrews. i don't believe. mr. liebeler. the secret service and the fbi have shown you various pictures, but you don't recall this one? mr. andrews. i don't recall seeing that one. there was one of a series where--one of an attorney in town was there--where we all knew him. they may have shown me this, but i don't remember. we used to have a club back in called lock (?) fraternity, and he resembles a boy that was a member. mr. liebeler. i don't think i have any more questions, mr. andrews. i want to thank you very much for coming in and i appreciate the cooperation you have given us. mr. andrews. i only wish i could do better. testimony of evaristo rodriguez the testimony of evaristo rodriguez, was taken on july , , at the old civil courts building, royal and conti streets, new orleans, la., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. special agent richard e. logan, interpreter, federal bureau of investigation, was present. evaristo rodriguez, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified, through the interpreter, mr. logan, as follows: mr. liebeler. i am an attorney on the staff of the president's commission investigating the assassination of president kennedy. i have been authorized to take your testimony by the commission pursuant to authority granted to it by executive order no. , dated november , , and joint resolution of congress no. . you are entitled under the rules of the commission to have an attorney present during your questioning. you are not required to answer questions that you think might be harmful to yourself to answer. you may state the reasons why you don't want to answer them if you wish to do that. you are entitled to -days' notice under the rules. i assume you are prepared to proceed with the testimony at this time since you are here, and i assume that since you do not have an attorney, you are prepared to go ahead without one. mr. rodriguez. i am ready to answer all the questions. i have been advised of my rights as you have stated them to me, and i am ready to answer any questions that i can help you with. mr. liebeler. where were you born, evaristo? mr. rodriguez [writing]. gibara, oriente, cuba. that's the province, oriente, and the city is gibara. mr. liebeler. when were you born? mr. rodriguez. july , . mr. liebeler. where do you live now? mr. rodriguez. chartres street. mr. liebeler. are you still a citizen of cuba? mr. rodriguez. yes. mr. liebeler. how long have you lived in the united states? mr. rodriguez. i came here in on a boat. i was first here in . i was on a boat. and i went to costa rica and a few other countries. i came back here in january of . i have been here since january of . mr. liebeler. when did you leave cuba? mr. rodriguez. december of . mr. liebeler. how did you come to leave cuba? mr. rodriguez. i left cuba because they were about to put me in the armed forces. i didn't care to. i wasn't in agreement with the present government, so i took off. mr. liebeler. how did you get out? mr. rodriguez. on a boat. i came out on a small boat, a small merchant ship. mr. liebeler. did you work on that boat then or where did you go? mr. rodriguez. i had been working on this boat for about years and months. mr. liebeler. is that the boat that sunk? mr. rodriguez. it's not the same boat that sunk, but it was a boat of the same company, barcelona co., that sunk. mr. liebeler. eventually, one of your boats did sink and you came then here to new orleans, is that correct, and that's when you stayed in the united states? (discussion between witness and interpreter.) mr. logan. i am going to have to ask him a couple of things on this because as i get it in my mind, it seems that he was on a boat. (discussion between witness and interpreter.) mr. rodriguez. first of all, i was on this boat called the _barcelona_ in the pacific, and this boat sunk, and we were transferred to another boat, the _san jose_, that first traveled to some other countries, and then when i got to new orleans, this is where i asked for my political asylum. mr. liebeler. off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. liebeler. where do you work? mr. rodriguez. i am a bartender at nights at the habana bar at decatur street. mr. liebeler. how long have you worked there? mr. rodriguez. about year and months. i have worked there about year and months. mr. liebeler. do you know orest pena? mr. rodriguez. yes. mr. liebeler. ruperto pena? mr. rodriguez [answering directly]. yes. mr. liebeler. carlos bringuier? mr. rodriguez [answering directly]. yes. mr. liebeler. we have information that you saw a man whom you believe to be lee harvey oswald in the bar some time in . would you tell us all about that? mr. rodriguez. these men came into the bar, two men came into the bar, one of them which i learned later through tv and pictures and newspapers was oswald. these men came into the bar. one of them spoke spanish and the one who spoke spanish ordered the tequila, so i told him that the price of the tequila was cents. i brought him the tequila and a little water. the man protested at the price, thought it was too high, and he made some statement to the effect that he was a cuban, but an american citizen, and that surely--words to the effect that surely the owner of this bar must be a capitalist, and we had a little debate about the price, but that passed over. then the man who i later learned was oswald ordered a lemonade. now i didn't know what to give him because we don't have lemonades in the bar. so i asked orest pena how i should fix a lemonade. orest told me to take a little of this lemon flavoring, squirt in some water, and charge him cents for the lemonade, and that's the incident surrounding that situation. mr. liebeler. you did not know the names of these men at that time, did you? mr. rodriguez. i didn't know the names of them then; no. mr. liebeler. did both of the men speak spanish or just one of them? mr. rodriguez. only the man that appeared to be a latin or cuban spoke spanish. mr. liebeler. so the man who you later thought to be oswald did not speak spanish; is that right? mr. rodriguez. no; the man i later learned to be oswald did not speak spanish. mr. liebeler. what time of the day did this happen? mr. rodriguez. this happened about : or between : and o'clock in the morning. i am not certain of the exact hour, but that's the best of my recollection. mr. liebeler. were either of these men drunk? mr. rodriguez. the man i later learned to be oswald had his arm around the latin-appearing man, and oswald appeared to be somewhat drunk. mr. liebeler. you mentioned previously that someone was a cuban but an american citizen. were you referring to the man that was with oswald, or orest pena, the owner of the bar? mr. rodriguez. what i did was, the latin-appearing man asked me if the owner of the bar was a cuban, and i told him that he was a cuban, but an american citizen. that's the way that was. mr. liebeler. are you able to say the nationality of the man that was with oswald? mr. rodriguez. i am not able to state what his exact nationality was, but he appeared to be a latin, and that's about as far as i can go. he could have been a mexican; he could have been a cuban, but at this point, i don't recall. mr. liebeler. what did this man look like? mr. logan. you want a description of him? mr. liebeler. yes; how old? mr. rodriguez. he was a man about years old, very hairy arms, dark hair on his arms. mr. liebeler. about how tall was he? mr. logan. he says he was about my height. that's about feet . he is about the same build of man as i am, short and rather stocky, wide. he was a stocky man with broad shoulders, about feet inches. mr. liebeler. do you know how much he weighed approximately? mr. logan. he probably hit around . he doesn't remember the exact weight, but he would guess around the same weight as i appear to be. mr. liebeler. so he weighed about pounds or so? mr. rodriguez. yes. mr. liebeler. was he taller or shorter than oswald? mr. rodriguez. just a little taller than oswald. mr. liebeler. was he heavier than oswald or lighter? mr. rodriguez. he was huskier and appeared to weigh more than oswald. mr. liebeler. do you remember what color his hair was? mr. rodriguez. he had a high forehead, you might say. he had this back here, the hairline was right back in here like this [indicating]. mr. liebeler. he had a receding hairline in the front? mr. logan. he says it's not like yours and mine; it's rather receding on the sides toward--at the front. mr. liebeler. off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. liebeler. now how tall would you estimate oswald was? mr. rodriguez. i didn't get a good look of oswald standing up straight because oswald was drunk and he was more or less in a sagging position most of the time. therefore, i wasn't able to get a good look, but he was a little shorter than feet , the height of the other man. he was a little shorter than that, maybe feet or feet , but i couldn't tell for sure because oswald wasn't standing up too straight at the time. in fact, oswald came in and draped over the table after he sat down. mr. liebeler. did oswald become sick? mr. rodriguez. he became sick on the table and on the floor. mr. liebeler. then did he go in the street and continue being sick? mr. rodriguez. the latin-appearing man helped him to the street where he continued to be sick. mr. liebeler. what was oswald wearing? mr. rodriguez. oswald as i recall, had on a dark pair of pants and a short-sleeved white shirt. mr. liebeler. did he have a tie on? mr. rodriguez. oswald had what appeared to be a small bow tie. mr. liebeler. are you sure? mr. rodriguez. but the thing is, oswald's collar was open and this thing was hanging from one side of it. mr. liebeler. it was a clip-on bow tie? mr. rodriguez. it was a clip-on thing as i recall. mr. liebeler. when did this happen; what month? mr. rodriguez. i can't remember exactly, but i know it was just about year ago, and i presume it was in august. mr. liebeler. do you remember when orest pena went to puerto rico? mr. rodriguez. i don't remember when orest went to puerto rico. i don't recall when orest went to puerto rico. mr. liebeler. was oswald in the bar before orest went to puerto rico or afterward or while he was gone? do you remember specifically? do you remember that he did go to puerto rico? (discussion between witness and interpreter.) mr. rodriguez. orest just said he was going on vacation and didn't tell me where he was going. mr. liebeler. do you remember when he went on vacation? think of it in comparison to the time that oswald was in the bar. was oswald in the bar before orest went on vacation or afterward or while he was on vacation. mr. rodriguez. orest was in the bar when oswald was there. mr. liebeler. so he couldn't have been on vacation at the time? mr. rodriguez. orest was in the bar when oswald was because at that time, i recall i had to ask orest how to make the lemonade for oswald, so---- mr. liebeler. now think again, and think if this was before orest went on vacation or afterward. mr. logan. the incident, you mean, in the bar? mr. liebeler. yes. mr. rodriguez. i don't remember whether it was before or after. mr. liebeler. do you remember when carlos bringuier was arrested and went to jail? mr. rodriguez. i remember him being arrested, but i don't remember--i remember when carlos bringuier was arrested, but--i was on the street and i saw carlos. i saw carlos bringuier talking to the policeman at the time that he was arrested, but i didn't see him get into the police car because i took off. i left because i thought i might be following the same path. mr. liebeler. were you walking when you saw carlos arrested? mr. rodriguez. i was in a car passing in the street when i saw carlos talking with the police. mr. liebeler. who was with you in the car? mr. rodriguez. orest pena had driven me to the doctor, and this is how we happened to be in the car together when we passed going to the habana bar when we saw carlos. mr. liebeler. off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. liebeler. did orest see bringuier that day? mr. rodriguez. i don't know whether orest saw him or not. orest was doing the driving. i am not sure whether he saw him or not. mr. liebeler. was oswald in the bar before or after you saw carlos in the street with the policeman? mr. rodriguez. i am not sure, but it was either a couple of days before oswald was in the bar or a couple of days after, but i can't remember well enough to be exact. mr. liebeler. but it was about that time that you saw oswald in the bar; is that right? mr. rodriguez. yes; it was about the same time, same time in relation to days, you know, that same period. mr. liebeler. yes. do you remember whether you and orest saw carlos in the street before orest went on vacation or afterward? mr. rodriguez. i don't remember whether it was before orest went on vacation or after that i saw carlos in the street. mr. liebeler. orest was in the bar when oswald was there? that's right, is it not? mr. rodriguez. yes. he was in the bar when oswald was there. mr. logan. he says he is trying to remember the best he can. mr. liebeler. he is doing very well. mr. logan. he is saying that the time passes and it is hard for him to remember everything, but he is trying to remember the best he can. mr. liebeler. did orest see oswald? mr. rodriguez. i didn't see, i don't believe, that orest saw oswald. orest was in the back part of the bar near the telephone, and oswald and his friend were sitting at a table near the cigarette machine, which is in the right-hand side of the front part of the bar, and oswald's back was to the place where orest was at the time. mr. liebeler. did orest come up and talk to them when you had this argument about the lemonade and tequila? mr. rodriguez. no; orest never talked to oswald or the other man during this altercation about the tequila. mr. liebeler. to the best of your knowledge, orest never came up or looked at them or saw them while they were there? mr. rodriguez. to the best of my recollection, orest pena never saw these two men up close, and, as a matter of fact, orest was talking on the telephone, and when i asked him about the lemonade, he just told me what to do and didn't pay any more attention to it than that. mr. liebeler. did you see anybody else with carlos and the policeman at the time you saw carlos on the street with the policeman as you have already told us? mr. rodriguez. at the time i saw carlos bringuier on the street with the police, i didn't see anybody being put into the police car, but i remember slightly that there were probably three other people in the police car at the time, but i don't know who they were, and i was passing in a car, of course, and didn't have an opportunity to pay any attention to that. mr. liebeler. you didn't see oswald there? mr. rodriguez. i didn't see oswald at that time. mr. liebeler. do you know celso hernandez? mr. rodriguez. i don't know him. i am acquainted with bringuier. mr. liebeler. when did you first think that the man you saw in the bar, as you have told us, was oswald? mr. logan. i am going to have to break this down for him. mr. liebeler. what did he say so far? mr. logan. he is answering an entirely different question, something about bringuier. mr. liebeler. i think we should put this on the record. mr. logan. let me find out if he understood the question first because the thing is, i think he has got something else in mind. mr. liebeler. yes; that is the problem. mr. logan. i will get that out of him, too, the part you want. (discussion between witness and interpreter.) mr. logan. no, no. he doesn't get the message, and i am sure i am saying it plain enough. mr. liebeler. when did you first become aware of the name of this man? mr. rodriguez. the first time that i knew that the man in the bar was oswald was--the first time that i realized that the man in the bar was oswald was after president kennedy had been assassinated and i saw oswald's picture in the paper with his name and so forth, and that's how i first became aware or first came to realize that the man who had been in the bar with the latin-appearing man was the same person as oswald. mr. liebeler. did you discuss this with orest pena after you became aware that the man in the bar was the same man as the man whom we think shot president kennedy? and specifically, i want to ask you if orest pena recognized oswald's picture independently from you or if he only became aware that it was oswald that was in the bar after you called it to his attention. mr. logan. all right. i will ask him the first one and then i will ask him the second one. mr. rodriguez. the first question is that i actually heard the news of the president's death on the radio, and they still hadn't given out the name of the assassin, who they thought it was. so later on when it came out in the newspaper, i saw the picture in the newspaper of oswald, and then i pointed out to orest that this was the fellow who was in the bar and had the argument about the lemonade or about the tequila, rather, and not in the bar at the time because the other fellow argued about the tequila. mr. logan. now what was that number two again? mr. liebeler. did orest mention it to you first by himself? did he know that that man had been in the bar, or did he only come to think that after you had pointed out to him it was the same man that you thought had bought the lemonade? mr. rodriguez. no; orest had never seen this man whose picture was in the paper that i recognized as being the man in the bar and who the paper described as lee harvey oswald. mr. liebeler. did you ever tell bringuier that the man that was in the bar with oswald was being sought by the fbi, being looked for by the fbi? mr. rodriguez. i told bringuier that oswald had been in the bar. this is after, of course, i discovered that it was oswald. but i don't remember ever telling bringuier that the fbi was looking for these people or either one of them. mr. liebeler. so to the best of your recollection, you did not tell bringuier that the fbi was looking for this man that was with oswald? mr. rodriguez. i never told bringuier that the fbi was looking for the man that was with oswald. i only mentioned to bringuier that oswald was the same one that had been in there that had been drinking lemonade in that bar previously. mr. liebeler. am i correct in saying that the only times that you have been in new orleans are, one, the period of time beginning in january of to the present time, and once before at one prior time, the exact date of which i do not recall, but you tell me. those two times. are there any other times you have been in new orleans? let me rephrase the question: you came to new orleans in january of and have been here ever since, and you were in new orleans at least once prior to that time. tell me when that was. mr. rodriguez. i got on a boat in cuba. we went to mexico. then we went to new york with sugar. then we went to norfolk, and from norfolk, we went to bermuda, and then to the dominican republic. mr. logan. unless you want that. i just told him that whole route was not important if he could come down to the exact month he was in new orleans. here's the thing: he says now that the very first time he was ever in new orleans was on a boat that came from cuba in april of . he was working on a boat that landed in new orleans in april of . now he doesn't remember the exact month in that he was in new orleans. mr. liebeler. were you ever in new orleans in ? mr. rodriguez. to the best of my recollection, i was here in may of where i caught the ship _barcelona_. mr. liebeler. did you know orest pena at that time? (discussion between witness and interpreter.) mr. logan. as i get it, he knew orest not well, but he knew him. had seen him at the bar, around the bars. mr. liebeler. do you remember talking to him in may of in his bar here in new orleans? mr. logan. he remembers probably he talked to orest during may of . i asked him what they talked about. he said, "like small talk about boats, about this, about that. nothing in particular." mr. liebeler. were you in the bar in may of with orest pena at any time when orest pena got into a fight or big argument with another man? mr. rodriguez. i don't remember orest being in a fight with anybody in the bar in , in may of . mr. liebeler. did orest pena ever say to you in words or in substance that castro should have been notified about something as soon as possible, and particularly, in may of ? mr. rodriguez. i don't remember him saying anything like that. mr. logan. what he was telling me in all this flurry was that orest, as far as political situations, is happy with his life here in the united states, and i have asked him three times if he remembers orest making any statement like that, that castro should have been notified immediately, and he says he has never heard him say anything like that. he doesn't remember. mr. liebeler. and you don't remember any fight that orest got into with another man? mr. rodriguez. i don't remember anything about a fight or a discussion. mr. liebeler. all right [handing picture to witness]. i show you a picture that has been marked "bringuier exhibit no. ," and ask you if you can identify anybody in that picture. mr. rodriguez. i identify oswald as the man with the x on him. mr. liebeler. anybody else? mr. rodriguez. no. mr. liebeler. i draw your attention particularly to the man standing to oswald's right, and the second man behind him, who appears to have leaflets in his hand, wearing a tie and short-sleeved white shirt, and facing directly into the camera. mr. rodriguez. the only one that i am able to identify in that picture is oswald himself. mr. liebeler. is that the man that was in the bar? mr. rodriguez. the same man that was in the bar as previously mentioned. mr. liebeler. do you have any question about that in your mind? mr. rodriguez. i am positive of this. mr. liebeler [handing picture to witness]. i show you a photograph that has been marked "garner exhibit no. ," and ask you if you recognize that man. mr. rodriguez. the man appears to be oswald, but the first picture is a much better photograph in my mind for identifying oswald. in other words, i was able to tell in the first photograph that the man was oswald. in this photograph, the second photograph that i have been shown---- mr. liebeler. "garner exhibit no. ." mr. rodriguez. the man appears to be oswald, but---- mr. liebeler. the witness indicates that he is clear in his mind that the man with the x in "bringuier exhibit no. " is the man who was in the bar and who he identifies as lee harvey oswald more than he is about the man shown in garner exhibit no. . do you have any question that that man was in your bar, referring to the man portrayed in "garner exhibit no. ?" mr. rodriguez. as far as this "exhibit no. ," a man appears to be oswald as i recognize him from newspaper pictures of oswald. mr. liebeler. referring to "garner exhibit no. ." but the man in "bringuier exhibit no. " looks more like the man who was in the bar? mr. rodriguez. the man in "bringuier exhibit no. " i have identified as the man who i learned later was oswald. mr. liebeler [handing picture to witness]. i show you a picture which has been marked "pizzo exhibit no. -c," and ask you if that looks like the man who was in the bar. mr. rodriguez. this appears to me that this is the man. it looks somewhat like the man that was in the bar with oswald, but---- mr. liebeler. like the man that was in the bar with oswald? mr. rodriguez. yes. mr. liebeler. that's what he said? mr. logan. now he says no. he says that this--how do you want to call it? mr. liebeler. "pizzo exhibit no. -c." mr. logan. "pizzo exhibit no. -c" does not appear like the man in bar. the other man was more of a latin-appearing man. mr. liebeler. well, now, have you ever seen this man, set forth in "pizzo exhibit no. -c," in the bar at all; at any time? mr. liebeler. what is he saying? mr. logan. he is saying that this reminds him of oswald because of these--the eye part here [indicating], the sagging eyes, like, you know--i don't know how you want to say that--like he has puffy eyelids. mr. liebeler. he has an area around the eyes---- mr. logan. that reminds him of oswald. mr. liebeler. does he identify this man as oswald? mr. logan. he says that the man in this exhibit appears to him to be oswald, but, of course, he says it has been a long time since he saw him and he is not ready to be positive on that. that's as close as you can come to it, i guess. mr. liebeler. you are not sure that this was the man that was in the bar? mr. logan. now he says it is him. mr. liebeler. it is or isn't? mr. logan. in his mind, "bringuier exhibit no. " which has the man with the x on him is the man who was in the bar and who he later learned was oswald. this picture stands out in his mind the best, reminds him of the man the best; this one---- mr. liebeler. "pizzo exhibit no. -c." mr. logan. appears to him to be oswald, but he still says that the other photograph is the one that he can best identify him as the man who was in the bar. what we have got going here is the fact that this looks like oswald, but he is--probably since the other photograph reminds him distinctly of the fact that that was the man that was in the bar, he is a little reluctant to say that. mr. liebeler. all right. thank you very much. testimony of orest pena the testimony of orest pena was taken on july , , at the old civil courts building, royal and conti streets, new orleans, la., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. orest pena, having first been duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: mr. liebeler. would you state your full name for the record. mr. pena. orest pena. mr. liebeler. that's o-r-e-s-t p-e-n-a; is that correct? mr. pena. yes. mr. liebeler. what is your address? mr. pena. decatur. mr. liebeler. is that your place of business or is that your residence? mr. pena. no; that's my place of business. on the ground floor is my place of business. on the second floor, in the rear of the second floor i live. mr. liebeler. i am an attorney for the president's commission. i understand that the secret service served a subpena on you last week and you are here under that subpena at this time. the rules of the commission entitle you to have your lawyer present if you wish. mr. pena. i don't think i need him. mr. liebeler. you have the right under our rules not to answer any question that you don't want to answer in the first instance, specifying the reasons if you do refuse to answer any questions. i am here under the authority granted to the commission by executive order no. , dated november , , and joint resolution of congress no. . i understand that attached to the subpena are copies of the executive order that i have referred to and rules of the commission; is that correct? (the witness handed document to counsel.) mr. liebeler. yes; they are attached. where were you born, mr. pena? mr. pena. in colon, cuba. mr. liebeler. when? mr. pena. august , . mr. liebeler. are you a citizen of the united states? mr. pena. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. when did you become a citizen? mr. pena. i became a citizen may , . mr. liebeler. and you became a citizen through naturalization; is that correct? mr. pena. yes. mr. liebeler. the place of business that you have at decatur street is a bar and lounge? mr. pena. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. what is the name of it? mr. pena. habana bar and lounge. mr. liebeler. am i correct in understanding that you have a brother by the name of ruperto pena? mr. pena. yes. mr. liebeler. does he work with you in the bar and lounge? mr. pena. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. am i also correct in understanding that one of the bartenders is named evaristo rodriguez? mr. pena. yes. mr. liebeler. do you know carlos bringuier? mr. pena. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. is mr. bringuier connected with a clothing store located close to your bar and lounge? mr. pena. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. when did you first meet mr. bringuier? mr. pena. when he came to the--if i am not wrong, i believe i met him when he started the store. mr. liebeler. approximately how long ago was it that you met mr. bringuier? mr. pena. i don't know exactly. might be a year and a half or years. mr. liebeler. mr. bringuier is active in anti-castro cuban affairs; is that correct? mr. pena. yes. mr. liebeler. have you ever had any connection with cuban politics? mr. pena. not with him, but with something else here in new orleans, an organization, about years ago, more or less. mr. liebeler. what organization was that? mr. pena. i don't know. the fbi know very well because a person from the fbi was there all the time. i don't remember exactly the name of the organization right now, but the organization was in the balter building, i think, in the second floor. mr. liebeler. whatever the organization's name was, was it an anti-castro cuban organization? mr. pena. it was in the balter building, the only one there. mr. liebeler. is that the organization sometimes known as jure, j-u-r-e? mr. pena. i don't know. mr. liebeler. _junta revolucionaria_ cubana? mr. pena. the chief or the boss of that organization, who was in miami, barrona. he was the boss of that organization. mr. liebeler. barrona? mr. pena. yes. he was the boss of that organization. mr. liebeler. when did you leave cuba? mr. pena. i left cuba in september . mr. liebeler. have you been back to cuba since that time? mr. pena. yes. mr. liebeler. would you tell us when? mr. pena. oh, many times i went to cuba. my last time i went to cuba was about months, i believe, after castro took over, but before, i used to go very often because all my family is in cuba, my mother, my father--before my father died, i used to go to cuba many times. i was a seaman, too. i used to ship out with the united fruit co. and the lykes brothers co. that's before castro took over. mr. liebeler. when did you stop working as a seaman? mr. pena. just before i went in business, in--i went in business . i stop in . mr. liebeler. you stopped working as a seaman in ? mr. pena. yes. mr. liebeler. were you in cuba in april or may of ? mr. pena. i think that's the last time i was in cuba. mr. liebeler. what was the purpose of your trip to cuba at that time? mr. pena. i went to cuba--i don't know. i went to have an operation. yes. mr. liebeler. while you were in cuba, did you have any contact with any officials in the castro government? mr. pena. no; not any. mr. liebeler. have you ever expressed a favorable attitude toward the castro regime? mr. pena. no; i never was for--i was against batista, but i never was even--i didn't even know castro. mr. liebeler. you had nothing to do with castro? mr. pena. no. mr. liebeler. now after you came back to the united states from cuba in ---- mr. pena. yes. mr. liebeler. did you go directly back to the united states? mr. pena. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. did you go anywhere else---- mr. pena. no. mr. liebeler. except to cuba on that trip? mr. pena. no; i came back to--i went from here to--directly from here to havana and from havana to new orleans. mr. liebeler. after your trip to cuba in , when was the next time that you were out of the united states? mr. pena. it was last summer. i went on vacation to mexico. mr. liebeler. how long were you there? mr. pena. nine days. i plan weeks, but i got sick to my stomach, so i came back. mr. liebeler. was that strictly a vacation trip? mr. pena. yes. mr. liebeler. it had nothing to do with politics or anything like that? mr. pena. no. mr. liebeler. do you have your passport here, mr. pena? mr. pena. yes [handing document to counsel]. mr. liebeler. the witness has handed me his passport, which is numbered d- , and issued on june , . it carries the name of orest pena and indicates a birth date of august , , that the birthplace is cuba, that he is feet inches tall, has black hair and brown eyes. after you went to mexico in may of , when did you next leave the united states? mr. pena. about or months after that vacation i went to puerto rico for week and to the dominican republic for week. mr. liebeler. can you tell us exactly when it was that you left new orleans at that time to go to puerto rico? mr. pena. i don't remember, but you have it there, the date i entered the dominican republic. i went week before that by delta co., directly from new orleans to san juan, p.r., by delta airlines. mr. liebeler. are you indicating a visa stamp on page of the passport, which is difficult to read? mr. pena. the d of august; yes. mr. liebeler. august ? mr. pena. but then i got to puerto rico about the th. mr. liebeler. fourteenth or fifteenth of august? mr. pena. fourteenth or fifteenth, something like that, of august. mr. liebeler. when did you leave new orleans? mr. pena. you leave new orleans around o'clock. about hours later you are in san juan, p.r. mr. liebeler. that would have been august or ? mr. pena. the th or th of august i left new orleans. then, after i got to puerto rico, week after that i went to the dominican republic. mr. liebeler. now, mr. pena, i would like to make arrangements with the secret service agent who is here to make photographic copies of this passport and to mark it in connection with our deposition. would it be agreeable with you to deliver it to him now? mr. pena. yes. you can get the exact date by delta airlines i went to puerto rico. mr. liebeler. it seems from the visa that if you went to puerto rico a week before you went to the dominican republic, the stamp here shows it would have been around the th or th of august , and that's close enough. (whereupon, a brief recess was taken.) testimony of orest pena resumed mr. liebeler. what was the purpose of your trip to puerto rico and the dominican republic in august? mr. pena. just a vacation. mr. liebeler. you did not go to cuba at that time? mr. pena. no. mr. liebeler. did you have any contact with any representatives of the cuban government while you were in puerto rico or the dominican republic? mr. pena. no. mr. liebeler. have you had any contact with any such representatives at any time during ? mr. pena. no. mr. liebeler. now, in may of , you took a trip to europe; is that correct? mr. pena. yes. mr. liebeler. you then went to london? mr. pena. yes. mr. liebeler. paris? mr. pena. yes. mr. liebeler. madrid? mr. pena. yes. mr. liebeler. rome? mr. pena. yes. mr. liebeler. munich? mr. pena. yes. mr. liebeler. berlin? mr. pena. no; i did not go to munich. mr. liebeler. you did not go to munich? mr. pena. no. mr. liebeler. did your plane land in munich on the way to berlin? mr. pena. no. from rome, i went to frankfurt, germany, and i stayed there about--i think about an hour and a half, something like that, to make connections on the next plane to berlin, and then coming back from berlin, fly from berlin to frankfurt again, from frankfurt took lufthansa, and directly to new york, and from new york, i wait about hours and took the eastern airlines, a night trip, to new orleans straight again. mr. liebeler. what was the purpose of that trip? mr. pena. just a vacation. mr. liebeler. you had no contact with any agents of any foreign government at any time other than the custom officials and that sort of thing? mr. pena. oh, when i went to berlin; i went for--when i was in berlin, i took a tour for hours to east berlin. mr. liebeler. on december , , you were interviewed by two agents of the federal bureau of investigation, mr. steinmeyer and mr. logan. do you remember that? mr. pena. i have been interviewed by the fbi so many times i don't remember. something. but it might be true. you tell me about what to refresh my mind, and i can tell you about whether that is true or not. mr. liebeler. well, let me come back to that in just a moment. do you remember being interviewed by two fbi agents on june , , when you and mr. tamberella went to the fbi office here in new orleans? mr. pena. that's about weeks ago? mr. liebeler. yes. mr. pena. yes. mr. liebeler. do you remember generally what you told them at that time? mr. pena. yes. mr. liebeler. would you tell us? mr. pena. what, approximately, i can remember? mr. liebeler. would you tell us now what you told them at that time? mr. pena. well, they asked me in connection with the--mr. kennedy, the late president kennedy's assassination, and also if i know anything about it. i told them i didn't know anything about it. they asked me if i saw oswald; so i said i saw him once. he went to my place of business with one or two friends. i don't know exactly. my bar is a very long bar, so to me it looked like he was with two friends. my bartender, evaristo rodriguez, said he was with only one man, so i don't know exactly. it was something that happened in my place of business; a customer asking for a lemonade; a man. they don't usually do that. that was the first time in years i have been in business that a customer asked for a lemonade. so my bartender--he learned to be a bartender at my place of business; he was a seaman before--he came to me and said, "the customer wants a lemonade. do we do that?" i said, "sure." he didn't know how to make it, so i said, "take a glass of water, couple of spoons of sugar, some lemon." he say, "how much should i charge?" i said, "twenty-five cents." he went back and made a lemonade and put it to oswald. then oswald got mad. said cents was too much for the lemonade, and then he asked for a tequila for his friend. mr. liebeler. did oswald ask for the tequila or did his friend? mr. pena. i don't know exactly. i was away from there. i didn't pay any attention. they got mad about the cents for the lemonade and cents for the tequila, so they asked my bartender, evaristo, why i charge so much for the drinks and i was a capitalist charging too much for the drinks. he went and came to me and told me about it. i said, "don't worry about it. they pay you already?" "yes." "don't worry about it." if you are going to worry about all the customers, you are going to go crazy. then i don't know whether he left or something, but he vomited after that; oswald did. i don't know anything but they walked away; that's all. when the assassination happened, they put the pictures over on the television, so i saw oswald and i said, "that's the man who came to my place one time, the man who ordered the lemonade." evaristo came and said, "look! that's the man that assassinated mr. kennedy is the one that was here one time." mr. liebeler. you told this to rodriguez? mr. pena. no; he told me. i identified to him by the television. i saw him that day. mr. liebeler. you recognized oswald yourself even before rodriguez came to you and told you about that; is that right? mr. pena. yes. when he told me about the lemonade, i took a look at the customer; took a look and forget about it. no sense in going about there and discuss with him, and then all of that was forgotten. after the assassination, we were speaking about that man was here one time. we used to go to bringuier's place about the incident that we got with oswald, and bringuier is very much interested. he called--my brother called bringuier. we didn't pay any attention until the fbi came one time and asked me. mr. liebeler. the fbi did come and ask you about this? mr. pena. yes; so when the---- mr. liebeler. was that shortly after the assassination? mr. pena. yes. so i told him just like i tell you. then they start coming, and over and over and over, and then i told the same thing what i knew about, and that's all i know about. mr. liebeler. now did you ever see oswald at any other time? mr. pena. no; i didn't. mr. liebeler. did you ever see the man who was with him at any other time? mr. pena. the man that was with him looked spanish; more cuban than anything else. you are american. you might know your people. i am cuban. i can sight them. i don't think i am being mistaken about him, about cuban people. i can spot them when i see them that they might be a cuban. mr. liebeler. you thought this man might be a cuban? mr. pena. to me, i thought he was a cuban. i can tell that is true. i wasn't even too close to him. mr. liebeler. you were never too close to this man? mr. pena. no. mr. liebeler. did you see oswald clearly enough to be absolutely sure in your mind that it was oswald in the bar? mr. pena. yes. mr. liebeler. did you ever see this cuban-looking man that was with him at any other time or any other place? mr. pena. no. see, after--that was before the assassination of mr. kennedy--there was an incident in my place. two guys came. they said they were mexican. they didn't look like mexicans. they looked more like cubans. they came to my place. i got a bongo with a chain. i got two bongoes for the people to play that with the music. i got a chain because i lose one of them one time. maybe some guy was drunk. that's why i put a chain on it so they can't take it away. i was fixing the bongo on that day and they came in. they came to see me. they said, "that's what you have to have here in this country, a chain?" i was mad because one of the customers broke the bongo. i said, "what you mean by that?" when i got mad, i got a little bit--i don't know--aggressive by the way i speak. so i told them, "what you mean by that?" they said, "well, in this country you have to put a chain?" i said, "that's so they don't take the bongo away." they said, "this is a democratic country?" i said, "where you come from?" he said, "i come from mexico." i said, "don't tell me about mexico; you take a car to mexico, they steal the four wheels away." so right away they saw me mad, so they left, so i called the--i think i called the fbi and told them about it. i told them where they walk, which way they walked. they say, "if they come back to your place, call us again." i just forgot about it. i never saw them no more. mr. liebeler. did you call the fbi yourself, do you remember that? mr. pena. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. why did you call the fbi about these men? mr. pena. i don't like it, the way they were, the way they spoke about the country here, so--i didn't like it, so i called the fbi. mr. liebeler. and the fbi told you if they came back---- mr. pena. if they came back, to please call them back. mr. liebeler. do you remember who you talked to at the fbi? mr. pena. i don't know exactly. see, i used to call de brueys. you are from washington, huh? mr. liebeler. yes. mr. pena. i am going to talk to you about de brueys and the fbi agency in new orleans, in louisiana. mr. liebeler. do you think you talked to de brueys at this time? mr. pena. i don't know exactly. sometimes you call there and they tell you he is not in there and you talk to somebody else if you want to give the message in the fbi, see, because de brueys isn't there. mr. liebeler. now, these two mexicans that came into your bar and with whom you had the discussion about the bongo drums, were they the same men or the same man that was with oswald when he was in the bar? mr. pena. no; i don't believe so. mr. liebeler. did they appear to you to have been entirely different people? mr. pena. well, i know it was not oswald. mr. liebeler. was oswald there at the time you had the argument with the men about the bongo drums? mr. pena. no. mr. liebeler. do you know whether or not either of the men who argued with you about the bongo drums had been with oswald when he was in the bar? mr. pena. see, the man was over--i can't identify him. i can't. oswald i did because of the lemonade. i looked to him, that's all, but the other guy i can't identify. he looked like a cuban, but i can't say that exactly. maybe if i would see him again i would say, "well, that's the man." mr. liebeler. but you aren't able to say whether the two men who argued with you about the bongo drums had any connection with oswald or had been with oswald when he was in the bar? mr. pena. i can't say that. mr. liebeler. you didn't recognize either of these two men that argued with you about the bongo drums as the men that had been with oswald before? mr. pena. no. mr. liebeler. had you ever seen these mexicans before they argued with you about the bongo drums? mr. pena. i don't think they were mexicans. they speak very, very different, and they looked like cubans. they spoke something like cubans. mr. liebeler. did you ever see them again after that time? mr. pena. no. mr. liebeler. you never saw them before that time, to the best of your knowledge? mr. pena. no. mr. liebeler. is this the story that you told to the fbi after the assassination, that you had seen oswald in the bar and rodriguez had seen him in the bar? mr. pena. more or less. mr. liebeler. when you talked to the fbi weeks ago, did they ask you about this again? mr. pena. yes; they asked me about this more than a dozen times. mr. liebeler. they asked you more than a dozen times about this? mr. pena. yes. mr. liebeler. and did they come to your bar to ask you about this? mr. pena. they come to my bar. they been calling me to come to the fbi office. that's why sometimes--one time i went down and got a lawyer. i don't need a lawyer about for this. i just tell you the truth. when i finish with him--you are from washington. i tell you, bringuier hates the united states as much as he hates russia. mr. liebeler. bringuier does? mr. pena. the day mr. kennedy put a blockade in cuba--you remember, about a year and a half, more or less--mr. carlos bringuier was telling me--excuse me--(obscenity) in spanish more than a dozen times, and i couldn't stand that. i have never done anything against the united states. i said, "no." anyway, anything you want to ask me--and you can ask mr. bringuier is that true or not, and let him and me take a lie detector test to see who is right on it. mr. liebeler. you say that you have never done anything against the interests of the united states? mr. pena. no; i have not ever. mr. liebeler. well, i have no reason whatsoever not to believe that statement, mr. pena. mr. pena. okay. mr. liebeler. why do you say that mr. bringuier hates the united states more than he does russia? mr. pena. because he does as much. mr. liebeler. as much? mr. pena. yes. mr. liebeler. why does he dislike the united states? has he ever told you? mr. pena. no; but the way he talks, that the united states didn't help to overthrow castro, and he can go over there and take over. mr. liebeler. is that the basis for mr. bringuier's bad feeling towards the united states, that we haven't done anything to overcome the castro regime? mr. pena. well, the way he talks to me, he hates the united states as much as he hates russia. that's what i told you, what he said, more than a dozen times. and if that is not true, let him take a lie detector test and find out whether that is true or not true. mr. liebeler. did you tell mr. bringuier about having seen oswald in the bar? mr. pena. yes; we was talking about that day. you see, i did like very, very much mr. kennedy. mr. liebeler. you did or did not? mr. pena. i did. very, very much. so i was hurt when he got killed. so when i saw the man there--i saw the man--so i went around and told most of my customers that i saw oswald came to my place. mr. liebeler. when you talked to the fbi on june , , you told them, did you not, that you had never told anybody that oswald had been in the bar? mr. pena. that i never told anybody? mr. liebeler. yes. mr. pena. that's not true. mr. liebeler. didn't you tell that to the fbi? mr. pena. i don't think that's so. that i never told anybody? mr. liebeler. yes. mr. pena. i didn't told anybody before? mr. liebeler. i have a report before me, mr. pena, of an interview of you in the presence of your attorney, mr. tamberella, which was made by mr. de brueys and mr. wall. that was in the fbi office on june , and on page of this particular report, which is page of the larger report, it says, and i quote: "orest pena specifically stated he had never told anyone, including carlos bringuier, that oswald had been in the habana bar with a mexican prior to the assassination of president kennedy. he also said he never heard his brother, ruperto pena, say that oswald had been in the bar with a mexican. he also stated that he had no information that the fbi was ever looking for a mexican who had ever patronized his bar." did you tell the fbi that? mr. pena. i don't think so. mr. liebeler. in fact, you did tell bringuier that you had seen oswald in the bar? mr. pena. when we were talking after the assassination, we were talking about it. mr. liebeler. did you tell the fbi agents back in december that oswald had been in the bar and that you had seen him? mr. pena. yes. mr. liebeler. and that rodriguez had seen him there, too? mr. pena. yes; that's the first time they interviewed me about oswald. mr. liebeler. on december , as far as i can tell. i have only two reports. mr. pena. last year, you mean? mr. liebeler. in . i have a report dated december , , of an interview with you in which you told the fbi that you had seen oswald in the bar and then i have a report of the interview on june , , a month ago, which says that you told them that you never told anybody that oswald had been in the bar and, of course, that's one of the reasons why we called you in and wanted to talk to you because there is an apparent conflict between the two fbi reports that we have on that question. now let me ask you this: you have a good deal of hostility toward the fbi, do you not? mr. pena. we got to talk about something else before i tell about the fbi in new orleans, so you let me know so i tell about the fbi, what i think about it, if i can express myself well enough to put my point of view about some of the agents of the fbi in new orleans. anyway, i will tell you. see if you can understand my view. mr. liebeler. very well. let's get to that later. regardless of what it says in this fbi report, the fact is, you did see oswald in the bar and you did tell bringuier, didn't you? mr. pena. we was talking about--i know we was talking about it with so many people around there, i can't tell you exactly. i know he knew because we was talking about it. mr. liebeler. right. did you actually see the man who ordered the lemonade in the bar? mr. pena. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. can you tell me approximately when it was that you saw oswald in the bar? now in this connection, let me help your thinking about it by reminding you that you went to puerto rico on about august or , . was it before that or after that that you saw oswald? mr. pena. i don't remember exactly. mr. liebeler. you can't remember? mr. pena. no; it wasn't easy then. there was nothing in the incident. he had money to pay for it and we just forgot about it. mr. liebeler. you can't remember whether it was before you went to puerto rico and the dominican republic or afterward? mr. pena. no; i can't. mr. liebeler. did your brother, ruperto, ever tell you that the two men who had given you a hard time about the bongo drums had come back to the bar? mr. pena. he told me something about that he saw the men passing by in a car and he called bringuier and so bringuier called the fbi, so they said that they called the fbi. mr. liebeler. was ruperto in the bar when you had the argument with the fellow about the bongo drums? mr. pena. i don't know exactly. mr. liebeler. but you say that ruperto saw these two men later on driving past the bar; is that correct? mr. pena. i wasn't there that date. i wasn't around there that date. he saw the two men and the fbi told me if i see them coming to my place, to call them. he saw the two men sitting in a car and--i don't know exactly. he went to bringuier and told bringuier, so bringuier called the fbi. that's what they said. i don't know. mr. liebeler. you have no personal knowledge of any of that? mr. pena. no. i believe my brother told me he saw the men or something, but i didn't pay no attention about it. mr. liebeler. there's no connection between these two men that your brother, ruperto, saw and the man who was in the bar with oswald as far as you know? mr. pena. no. mr. liebeler. do you remember whether ruperto was in the bar when oswald was there? mr. pena. i don't believe he was there. i don't believe so. mr. liebeler. was evaristo rodriguez there? mr. pena. when oswald was there? mr. liebeler. yes. mr. pena. he was the one who was serving oswald. mr. liebeler [handing picture to witness]. i show you a picture that has previously been marked as "bringuier exhibit no. ," and i ask you if you recognize anybody in that picture. mr. pena. yes, oswald; i recognize him. mr. liebeler. which one is oswald? mr. pena. oswald is marked in some way. mr. liebeler. he has an "x" on him, is that correct? mr. pena. yes. mr. liebeler. do you recognize the place where this picture was taken? mr. pena. i know about it now because i seen in the fbi. they have a place. put it on the television. that's the international trade mart, i believe so. mr. liebeler. the fbi put this picture on television? mr. pena. i don't know exactly if that picture or another picture, but they got oswald and a group--i don't know if this group--handing out propaganda to other people. i got in an argument with the fbi about that, too. i told them if they had that propaganda paper, why don't they find out the printing, where they printing that propaganda, and that would be easy to find the other people. see, i---- mr. liebeler. why, because if they found the place where the propaganda was printed, they would---- mr. pena. yes. those people might know oswald and many other people in connection with oswald. mr. liebeler. would it surprise you if i told you we do know who printed the handbills? mr. pena. well--you say you do know? mr. liebeler. yes. mr. pena. okay. i took two courses in investigation work, one from the international detective school, and one from the applied sciences of chicago. the big man there is an ex-fbi man, mr. dickerson cook. so i took that course, too. after i finished, he sent me a letter. i like investigation very much. mr. liebeler. let me point out to you a young man in this picture. he is the second man to oswald's right and behind. he is standing there with some leaflets in his hand. he has a white, short-sleeved shirt on and a tie, and he appears to be handing out leaflets. did you ever see that man before? mr. pena. i don't believe so. mr. liebeler. could he have been the man who was with oswald in the bar? mr. pena. i couldn't say. mr. liebeler. you don't recognize anybody else in that picture except oswald, is that correct? mr. pena. yes. mr. liebeler [handing picture to witness]. i show you a picture which has been previously identified as "pizzo exhibit no. -a," and ask you if you recognize anybody in that picture. mr. pena. i recognize oswald there [indicating]. mr. liebeler. he has a green "x" line over his head? mr. pena. yes. mr. liebeler. do you recognize anyone else in the picture? mr. pena. no. mr. liebeler [handing picture to witness]. i ask you the same question with respect to "pizzo exhibit no. -b." mr. pena. i recognize him [indicating]. mr. liebeler. with the green marking over his head? mr. pena. yes. mr. liebeler. and no one else? mr. pena. no. mr. liebeler [handing picture to witness]. i show you a picture which has been previously identified as "garner exhibit no. ," and ask you if you recognize that man. mr. pena. yes; that's oswald. mr. liebeler. do you recognize him as the same man who was in the bar? mr. pena. yes. mr. liebeler [handing picture to witness]. i show you a picture that has been marked "pizzo exhibit no. -c," and ask you if you can identify that man. mr. pena. yes; that's oswald. mr. liebeler. that's the same man who was in your bar? mr. pena. yes. mr. liebeler. do you have any doubt in your mind that it was oswald who was in your bar? mr. pena. he was there. mr. liebeler. he was there? mr. pena. yes. mr. liebeler. am i correct in my understanding of your previous testimony that after you saw the picture of oswald on television after the assassination, you, yourself, recognized that as the man that had been in the bar, even before rodriguez mentioned it to you? mr. pena. well, i seen it and i came down. i was talking about it, and i recognized him right away. mr. liebeler. even before rodriguez spoke to you about it, or was it after rodriguez spoke to you about it? mr. pena. i was talking about it, and the man was in my place, you know. then rodriguez came over and said, "you remember that man who was drinking that lemonade?" then my mind got clear. he just run from his house to my house to tell me about it. mr. liebeler. you had seen oswald on television before rodriguez told you about it and you thought you recognized him as having been in the place? mr. pena. yes. mr. liebeler. then rodriguez reminded you of the lemonade and then it became clear in your mind that oswald was the man who had ordered the lemonade and had been in your place? mr. pena. yes. mr. liebeler. rodriguez told the fbi that shortly after oswald had been in the bar, after the lemonade incident, that he went to a doctor's office with you and this was just before you went to puerto rico and the dominican republic. do you have any recollection of that? mr. pena. we went to a doctor's office? mr. liebeler. yes. to be more specific, rodriguez said that while he was riding back in the car with you, he saw bringuier in the street with some policemen. do you know anything about that? mr. pena. oh, yes. they got some kind of trouble. i went out. yes. and they got some group, or two or three people was giving propaganda away, and bringuier and one or two more guys went and started an argument with the guy who was giving the propaganda away in canal street. then the police came down and they arrested him. bringuier, and one or two more cubans, and one more guy. i don't know the guy. i have seen him, but i don't know the guy. and they put them in jail in the first district, and they was calling bringuier's brother-in-law. his name is--it is---- mr. liebeler. hernandez? is that celso hernandez? mr. pena. no. they called me up there. i say, "well--" so i went over there and put a bond, $ , so they can come out. mr. liebeler. you actually went to the police station and put up bond for bringuier? mr. pena. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. that was so that bringuier could get out? mr. pena. yes. one or two more guys. mr. liebeler. do you remember seeing the incident in the street as you drove by? mr. pena. no. mr. liebeler. did rodriguez tell you about it later on? he told you that he had seen it? mr. pena. yes. mr. liebeler. did he tell you that when he was with you at that time? did he mention it after the doctor's appointment where you had been together? mr. pena. what you mean? mr. liebeler. did rodriguez tell you that he had seen bringuier in the street on the way back from the doctor's appointment when he was with you? mr. pena. i don't remember that. mr. liebeler. in any event, you, yourself, did not see bringuier in the street with the policemen at that time, and later on, after bringuier had been arrested, you went over to the police station and put the bond up for bringuier? mr. pena. his brother-in-law in the store told me about it. he say, "i can't leave the store by myself." i said, "how much would the bond be?" then i said, "okay, i put the bond. then you give it back to me." mr. liebeler. now that was shortly before you went to puerto rico; is that correct? mr. pena. i don't know exactly. mr. liebeler. do you remember whether the incident with regard to the bond was about the time that oswald was in the bar and ordered the lemonade, or was it not about at that time? do you remember? mr. pena. i don't remember. mr. liebeler. do you remember one time about in may or so of that you got into a fight in your bar with some man who was standing there listening to you talk to some of your friends? mr. pena. i got so many fights in my place i don't know which one it is. mr. liebeler. do you know a man by the name of garcia? mr. pena. i don't know. mr. liebeler. hector josé garcia? mr. pena. hector josé garcia? mr. liebeler. we have a report that there was a man in your bar who heard you talking to two merchant seamen, and you are reported to have said: "castro should have been notified about that as soon as possible." do you remember saying anything about that? mr. pena. that castro should be notified about it? mr. liebeler. that castro should have been notified about that as soon as possible. mr. pena. no. mr. liebeler. have you ever had anything to do with castro? mr. pena. no; not ever. mr. liebeler. you say that rodriguez had worked as a merchant seaman prior to the time he went to work as a bartender, is that correct? mr. pena. yes. mr. liebeler. about what time did he start working as a bartender? mr. pena. when he came. his ship sunk and--somewhere in costa rica--and they was transferred to new orleans, and the company--agency that he worked for bring him to new orleans, bring a whole bunch to new orleans. they know i got room up in the house on the third floor. they ask me if i got rooms, so i rent rooms to those guys, so--evaristo, too--so in that time, i put evaristo to work for me. mr. liebeler. about how long ago was that? mr. pena. i don't know exactly. i know it's over a year. mr. liebeler. over a year? mr. pena. yes. mr. liebeler. you do have a lot of fights and difficulties in your bar, is that correct? mr. pena. yes. arguments. you know, a barroom. mr. liebeler. was the anti-castro organization that you worked with called the cuban revolutionary council? mr. pena. yes. mr. liebeler. that was the name of it? mr. pena. and the delegate here was serrgio arcacha. he was the boss of the organization. mr. liebeler. do you remember having your picture in the paper at one time---- mr. pena. yes. mr. liebeler. in connection with this, on the front page? mr. pena. yes. mr. liebeler. that would have been some time in late december of approximately? mr. pena. i don't know exactly. mr. liebeler. do you remember that when you talked to the fbi just last month, they asked you when you went to puerto rico and the dominican republic in august of , and they asked you the days? mr. pena. yes. mr. liebeler. and did you subsequently discuss that with your attorney, mr. tamberella? mr. pena. yes. well, see, why, the reason i took tamberella with me was because from my point of view, the fbi of new orleans ask me about the same things so many times that somehow i was mad, so i said--about , times they ask me the same thing over and over and over, and tamberella is my lawyer, so i went to tamberella and said, "look! they look silly to me." they say the same thing so much, so i want to see if i can't stop this. if they come around asking me something else, that's okay, but for the same thing, i can't tell no more about that. he said, "okay, i go with you." mr. liebeler. now my reports indicate that mr. tamberella called the fbi office back after your interview and told the fbi that you had left for puerto rico on august , . mr. pena. august ? mr. liebeler. yes. that you were not able to tell them the exact date at the time of the interview, but later, mr. tamberella told them that. that does not appear to be correct, does it? mr. pena. i don't know exactly. it wasn't in the passport, the date? mr. liebeler. well, the date was august in the passport. mr. pena. the date in the passport was the date i came out of the dominican republic, the d. i came back on my way back to new orleans the d of august. mr. liebeler. let me ask you this---- mr. pena. yes; might be the day i came out of the dominican republic. i don't know exactly. might be the th because i spent week--if that date, august , is the date i left the dominican republic, might be the th because i spent weeks between the two places. delta airlines can give you the date of the flight to puerto rico exactly. mr. liebeler. the only way that you and mr. tamberella were able to fix the date was by looking at the stamp on the passport; is that correct? mr. pena. yes. mr. liebeler. if the visa stamp is the date that you left the dominican republic---- mr. pena. it would be days before that. i went week in puerto rico and week in the dominican republic. mr. liebeler. if the date on the stamp was the day you went into the dominican republic---- mr. pena. it would be days before. mr. liebeler. you are absolutely clear in your mind, however, that you were here in new orleans on the day that bringuier was arrested in connection with the propaganda demonstration on the street because you put up the bond to get him out. if i told you that that happened on august , , that would indicate that you were here in new orleans at that time and that you must have left some time subsequent to august , ? mr. pena. i don't know. it might be another time, but the time i placed the bond for him, i was here because i was the one went up to the first precinct to give the money. mr. liebeler. that was the time bringuier had gotten into a fight with this man over distributing propaganda leaflets? mr. pena. i didn't see the fight. mr. liebeler. but he told you about it? mr. pena. yes. mr. liebeler. did he tell you how this fight came about? mr. pena. some other cuban, a friend of bringuier's, one of the cubans i placed the bond for, came to bringuier's store--that's what they told me about it, what i hear--and told bringuier, "look, bringuier, there is a man there giving propaganda against the cuban society in favor of castro." so bringuier came out, but the two men got away, and how they--i don't know what happened, what was the argument, but they got arrested by the policemen. mr. liebeler. that was the time when you put up the bond to get him out? mr. pena. yes; if that's the same time. i don't know if he got in some other trouble like that a different time. i don't know. i put bond for him one time. i don't know if it was--i don't remember exactly. mr. liebeler. well, the description of the incident that you have given us about the propaganda sounds very much like the one that occurred on august , and the man who was handing out the literature was oswald, and bringuier was arrested along with two other men along with oswald. that would seem to place you here in the united states at that time. we can always check what the procedure is on that visa stamp so we can figure out when you left the united states. mr. pena. you don't need a visa to go to puerto rico when you are an american citizen, but the delta airlines, if they keep records, can give you the exact date and the hour i left new orleans to go to san juan, p.r., last summer. i know it was in august because in august is my birthday. mr. liebeler. you went to puerto rico on your birthday? mr. pena. well, i stay there on my birthday. mr. liebeler. when is your birthday? mr. pena. august . mr. liebeler. august ? mr. pena. fifteen. mr. liebeler. i show you a photographic copy of a passport application dated june , , and ask you if that is a copy of the passport application that you filled out on or about that day [handing document to witness]. mr. pena. yes. mr. liebeler. that is a copy of your passport application, is it? mr. pena. i believe so. mr. liebeler. i would like to mark that as "orest pena exhibit no. ," and i will just write it on here if i may. (whereupon, the document offered by counsel was duly marked for identification as "orest pena exhibit no. .") mr. liebeler. i have marked this "orest pena exhibit no. ," new orleans, july , , and i have placed my initials on it. would you initial it below my initials just so we know we are talking about the same document. mr. pena. over here [indicating]? mr. liebeler. yes; just put your initials on it. (witness complying.) mr. liebeler. now this application also has a part , which is required to be filled out by naturalized citizens. that is also a part of your application; is it not? [handing document to witness.] is that a part of your application, too, mr. pena? mr. pena. i don't know. might be. something wrong here. how--went to mexico? i don't know exactly. mr. liebeler. what's the problem? mr. pena. i don't know. says here i was in mexico. i don't know when i went to mexico. when i got my passport, i don't remember exactly. i believe i got my passport--when i went to mexico? how come it says here i went to mexico? mr. liebeler. you told us you went to mexico in may of , if i am not mistaken. is that right? mr. pena. i know i went to mexico last year. mr. liebeler. well, this passport application, the one that we have already marked, is dated june , and the part, the supplement to it, or what purports to be a supplement to it indicates that you went to mexico for days in may of . now this part that we are looking at is not signed by you at any point. mr. pena. you mean that's when i applied for my passport? mr. liebeler. no; you applied for your passport on june , . that was after you came back from mexico. you didn't need your passport to go to mexico. i don't think you did, anyway. mr. pena. yes; i believe so. i got my citizen papers; yes. mr. liebeler. but the information that is set forth on this second part of the application, to the extent that it indicates that you went to cuba in in may and april, is correct, is it not? mr. pena. well, i don't know the exact date, but it was around there, somewhere around there. mr. liebeler. the information that you came to the united states in october of is correct, is it not? that's correct approximately? mr. pena. yes; around. mr. liebeler. and you lived at west th street in new york city, did you not, for a time? mr. pena. yes; i lived in that place. mr. liebeler. now on the application, the original application that we have marked as "exhibit no. ," which you signed, it indicates, does it not, that you were going to go to spain and that you planned to go to spain for a vacation trip of approximately weeks. mr. pena. yes. mr. liebeler. now in fact, you didn't go to spain at that time; is that right? mr. pena. yes. mr. liebeler. you went to puerto rico and the dominican republic? mr. pena. yes. mr. liebeler. what made you change your mind about that? mr. pena. i don't know; i just changed my mind. i postponed the trip to europe for this year. mr. liebeler. do you recall that you did plan to go to spain on vacation? mr. pena. what? mr. liebeler. do you recall that you did plan to go to spain on vacation? mr. pena. yes, sir. that's where i did take my passport. you also use a passport. mr. liebeler. where did you fill this application out? mr. pena. right here in new orleans at loyola street, if i am not wrong, the new federal building. mr. liebeler. at loyola street, the new federal building? mr. pena. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. did you see lee harvey oswald at the passport office on the day you applied for this passport? mr. pena. i don't believe he was there. mr. liebeler. he applied for a passport on the same day. mr. pena. he applied for the passport on the same day? mr. liebeler. yes. mr. pena. i don't remember seeing him there. i remember the day i applied for my passport there were a lot of people from--i don't know from where, india or africa. you know, colored people. there were some people there. they were seamen or something, and one american girl got all of those colored people. she was helping all of them that day. a bunch of people there, colored people. mr. liebeler. you have no recollection of seeing oswald there at that time? mr. pena. no. mr. liebeler. as far as you know, you never saw oswald at any time other than that time you saw him in your bar? mr. pena. no. mr. liebeler. he never had any conversation with you; is that correct? mr. pena. not that i recall. mr. liebeler. have any other federal agencies besides the fbi interviewed you? mr. pena. you see, before, they used to go there and say, "we are from the federal bureau," and would just talk to them. i didn't know what agency. i never took no one's name or anything until later my lawyer told me, "every time you talk to one of these men, get their name, where they come from." that was very, very much later. before, they would just come around and tell me that they are asking me many things about people that was for castro. when you got a barroom, especially in spanish like i got--most of my customers are spanish seamen, foreign seamen--you hear the way they talk, and before, as i was against batista--most of the people here for castro, really for castro--they was going to my place. so when i joined the organization against castro in new orleans, one of the agents of the fbi, de brueys, started going to my place very, very often asking me about many different people, spanish people, what i knew, what i thought. i told him what i knew; that some people was for castro and some people was against. i told him what i saw. i never did ask him what he found out about those people. mr. liebeler. sometimes you would call the fbi and give them information, too; is that correct? mr. pena. yes. mr. liebeler. information that you picked up from conversations that took place at your bar and listening to those seamen? mr. pena. yes. mr. liebeler. now i have been provided with what are supposed to be all of the fbi reports about their conversations relating to the oswald case, and as far as i can tell, the only time the fbi has spoken to you about that was back in december , shortly after the assassination, and then again in june just a short time ago; when they came to question you again at my request after i had---- mr. pena. just those two times? mr. liebeler. yes; just twice. mr. pena. i believe it's very many more times than that. mr. liebeler. you think it is more times than that? mr. pena. oh, yes. mr. liebeler. you are sure these were fbi men? mr. pena. i don't know because, as i told you before, i didn't used to get the names until my lawyer told me, "look! every time you talk to one of those people, you better get the name and write it down so you know who you are talking about." mr. liebeler. you wanted to tell me something about the fbi in new orleans. why don't you do that now. mr. pena. you see, i started--like i told you, when that organization moved in new orleans---- mr. liebeler. this is the anti-castro organization? mr. pena. yes. so i went down there and joined the organization. in when i went to cuba, my mother told me how everything was going; so she says, "he is even worse than batista." so when i came back, i joined the organization a little bit after that, the organization here in new orleans. so i went and joined them and started working for the organization collecting money at my place of business and giving my own money for many things to the organization, you know, a dollar, two dollars. then de brueys came to the organization. maybe--i don't know if sent by the government or how, but he went to the organization. mr. liebeler. he joined it? mr. pena. no; he didn't join it, but he was sticking with the organization very, very close. mr. liebeler. they knew he was an fbi agent? mr. pena. yes; we knew he was an fbi agent. so from time to time he called me at my place. he went to my place and was asking me about this guy and that guy, different people here in new orleans. so i told him what i thought about the men. i tell you that and then you find out if i am right or if i am wrong. i never did ask if i was right or wrong. i told him about people that i am for sure they are for castro here in new orleans. so one way or the other, he was interfering with me somehow, mr. de brueys, so---- mr. liebeler. de brueys was interfering with you? mr. pena. yes. somehow. so one day i went to the fbi. they called me to the fbi. i don't remember exactly for what they called me. so i told de brueys'--i told de brueys' or somebody else that i talked to--de brueys' boss--i didn't ask them who it was. they was fbi. they was in the fbi office--i told the agency there i don't talk to de brueys. i don't trust him as an american. mr. liebeler. did you tell them any reasons why you didn't? mr. pena. because he was interfering very close with the organization against castro. so since that day--we got in a little bit of argument there. we was talking about somebody. the fbi asked me about a man that had been in the group before, about somebody--if i knew somebody--if i knew his way for signing. so i asked de brueys, "did i told you about this man?" he said, "no." i got mad. i said, "if you said i didn't told you about that man, i don't trust you as an american, to be for an american." so days later he went to my place of business. he said to me at the table, "i want to talk to you." i said, "okay, let's go." he said not to talk about him any more because what he could do is get me in big trouble. he said, "i am an fbi man. i can get you in big trouble." but he made a mistake. i had a girl that was with me that was here when he was discussing me. mr. liebeler. somebody else was there and heard it? mr. pena. yes. he was discussing me not to talk about it. he was an fbi man and he could get me in big trouble. so i talked to my girl friend and said, "look, i better pull out of this thing. what the fbi wants me is to pull away from that organization and just keep away from those things, politics," so i pull away, and i never did heard from the fbi any more until mr. kennedy got assassinated. they left me alone completely. they never asked me after i pulled out of the organization. after that, i never listened to anybody talking about politics in the place. i tried to keep out of it the most i could. they never did call me any more until oswald got--and then they started coming here talking to me because we was talking about the incident. mr. liebeler. so your complaints about the fbi here in new orleans relate basically to the anti-castro proposition and not to the investigation of the assassination; is that correct? mr. pena. no, no. that was way before. mr. liebeler. you don't have any criticism of the fbi as far as the investigation of the kennedy assassination was concerned except that you just don't like to talk to the fbi any more; is that right? mr. pena. you mean after the assassination? mr. liebeler. yes. mr. pena. after the assassination, they came and asked me so many times about the same thing, lemonade, it just looked silly to me. they came over so many times, i said, i better do something about it. i called my lawyer and said, "look! i don't know anything else about this. i want you to go with me there and put it clear that that's what i know about it and i don't want no more part of that." the thing--i got in an argument with one of the men there, the same thing i told you about the printing and the propaganda. i told him how i feel about that. i don't know whether i was right or wrong. he told me that the united states is a big country and it was hard to find. i told him, "i don't agree with you." i told him that. mr. liebeler. who? mr. pena. i talked to the agency about if that propaganda, where they was printing that propaganda, and i said, "why can't you find that place?" he said, "because the united states is a big country." i said, "it doesn't matter. each printing has their own type or letter that can be found somehow." mr. liebeler. so you told this fbi agent that they should find where the propaganda literature had been printed? mr. pena. the propaganda that oswald was giving away. they put that on television about or days after the assassination--oswald giving that propaganda. they knew that oswald was giving that propaganda away before mr. kennedy was killed. they got all of that propaganda and all of that film taken of oswald. mr. liebeler. you think they should find where those leaflets were printed? this is what you told them? mr. pena. the little bit i know about the investigation, they even--let me see how to say it. let me see--they even keep oswald from killing mr. kennedy. from my point of view as an investigator, if they went all the way from that propaganda, from where it was printed, maybe they can put oswald in jail. maybe the president not be killed. that was before mr. kennedy was killed. mr. liebeler. let me ask you this: do you have any evidence or do you know of any evidence that would link oswald to anybody else in a conspiracy to assassinate the president? mr. pena. no. mr. liebeler. do you have any information or knowledge that oswald was involved with pro-castro people in connection with the assassination? mr. pena. no; i can't tell you that. mr. liebeler. do you have any information that this was a pro-castro or a castro plot to assassinate president kennedy? mr. pena. no; i can't say that. mr. liebeler. do you know whether anybody else in new orleans has any information like that? mr. pena. no; i can't say that. mr. liebeler. what about bringuier? mr. pena. what i think about bringuier? he is just trying to get big name, collecting big name to make himself big when he come back to cuba. be one of the bosses. that's my point of view. i told you he don't like the united states and what i told you about; you can bring him here and tell him that orest pena told you that. i will stand a lie-detector test and invite him to take one, and i invite de brueys, too, to ask de brueys if that's true or not true he went to my place and tried to intimidate me. if he say no, i take a lie-detector test and he take a lie-detector test and maybe you will find one communist in the fbi. mr. liebeler. you think that bringuier is using his association with oswald to give himself a big name in connection with that? mr. pena. that's what it is. mr. liebeler. as far as you know, bringuier doesn't have any evidence that there was a pro-castro plot to assassinate the president. mr. pena. no; i don't know. see, bringuier know oswald very well. he told me one time--i don't know if that is true or not--he said that oswald brought him some kind of manual or a book. i believe he still have the book. and bringuier has his own organization here. they call it---- mr. liebeler. dre? mr. pena. cuban something. mr. liebeler. is that the dre? mr. pena. yes; something. mr. liebeler. cuban students directory? mr. pena. he said oswald came to infiltrate in his organization. mr. liebeler. and that oswald came to his store? mr. pena. yes. that's what he told me. before, i used to talk to him, go there or he came to my place. mr. liebeler. you and mr. bringuier are not too good friends any more; is that right? mr. pena. we was quite close until--when they started the blockade in cuba, the way he spoke about president kennedy. and i pulled a little bit out. i even used to give him sometimes more than $ . i don't know. he collected to send to miami, if he don't send it somewhere else. that's what he said. mr. liebeler. do you have anything else that you want to tell us at this time, mr. pena, that i haven't asked you about that you think we should know about? mr. pena. no. mr. liebeler. you can't think of anything? mr. pena. i tell you, bringuier don't do many things that he will tell you. he don't like america. time will tell. he is one of the guys that--do you remember when they were saying, "yankee, go home," in cuba? he was in cuba at that time. he was calling, "yankee, go home." mr. liebeler. has he ever favored castro that you know of? mr. pena. oh, of course. mr. liebeler. who, bringuier? mr. pena. yes. he said not? mr. liebeler. i am asking you did he ever favor castro. mr. pena. i was in cuba. i left cuba very long time ago. i never was involved in any kind of politics. i didn't like batista, but i wasn't in any organization. mr. liebeler. you didn't know of any. mr. pena. what i know about people, what i hear in my place, or what i hear other people talking, and what i hear about bringuier was, when castro started with his revolution of cuba, he was one of the cubans in the revolution calling, "yankee, go home." mr. liebeler. you don't think that bringuier is in favor of castro at this time? mr. pena. he? no, no. he hate castro and he hate russia, but he hates america as much, too. he just want to go back to cuba and be one of the bosses. mr. liebeler. be a big man? mr. pena. yes. mr. liebeler. all right, mr. pena. i want to thank you very much for coming in. mr. pena. i want you to know something: i love the united states more than many people that are born in this country and i got a place of business and i hear--they don't talk much now. they are very scared, but before, when castro was started, i learn many people, how much they was against this country, people that was born in this country. i love this country, believe me. maybe you don't believe me or have a bad report about me, but nobody make me a communist. believe that. believe it or not. mr. liebeler. all right. thank you very much. testimony of ruperto pena the testimony of ruperto pena was taken on july , , at the old civil courts building, royal and conti streets, new orleans, la., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. ruperto pena, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified, through the interpreter, as follows: mr. liebeler. first, let the record show that this testimony is being taken through an interpreter in the person of special agent richard e. logan of the federal bureau of investigation. mr. pena, i am an attorney on the staff of the president's commission investigating the assassination of president john f. kennedy. i have been authorized to take your testimony pursuant to certain regulations and orders that president johnson has issued, including executive order no. , dated november , , and joint resolution of congress no. . you are entitled to have an attorney. you do not have to answer the questions if you have any objections to them, and you are entitled to days' notice of the hearing. mr. logan. i have already explained to him that you are an attorney and about the commission and authorization. now i will just tell him about these rights that he has. (discussion between witness and interpreter). mr. logan. he says as long as he can answer them, that he will. mr. liebeler. i assume that he will be willing to proceed without an attorney? mr. logan. no; he doesn't care. mr. liebeler. where were you born, mr. pena? mr. pena. mantanza--that's the province--colón--that's the city--cuba. mr. liebeler. when? mr. pena. march , . mr. liebeler. you are still a citizen of cuba? mr. pena. yes. mr. liebeler. where do you work? mr. pena. with my brother at the--i help my brother run the bar, the habana bar, decatur street. the habana bar it is called. mr. liebeler. do you know carlos bringuier? mr. pena (answering directly). yes. mr. liebeler. and you are the brother of orest pena; is that correct? mr. pena. yes. mr. liebeler. do you know evaristo rodriguez? mr. pena (answering directly). yes. mr. liebeler. have you discussed with your brother an incident in the bar where a man ordered a lemonade? mr. pena. i didn't talk with my brother about it. i have discussed it with the bartender. mr. liebeler. rodriguez? mr. logan. because his brother, apparently--he wasn't there when the incident happened either. he didn't discuss it with his brother and the bartender. apparently, he just heard it through talk in the bar about the thing. mr. liebeler. you were not there at the time this happened? mr. pena. no; i wasn't there. mr. liebeler (handing picture to witness). i show you a picture which has been marked "garner exhibit no. ," and ask you if you recognize that man. mr. pena. i know him from the newspapers, but i have never seen him in person. (discussion between witness and interpreter.) mr. logan. he knows. just can't get it out right now. he doesn't remember his name. he knows his face because he has seen it in a lot of photographs and pictures in the newspaper. never saw him in person, but he knows the photograph of the man from pictures on tv and newspapers. mr. liebeler. and you know him as the man who assassinated president kennedy? mr. pena. yes; i do. i don't right at this second remember his name. mr. liebeler. oswald? mr. pena. oswald is the man. mr. liebeler (handing picture to witness). i show you a picture that has been marked "bringuier exhibit no. ," and ask you if you have ever seen any of the men in this picture, specifically that man who is handing out leaflets slightly to oswald's right, the man i point to with my pencil, and, for the purposes of the record, it is the man who stands behind oswald to his right, and he is the second man from oswald. he wears a short-sleeved shirt with a tie. mr. pena. i don't know anybody in there. i don't recognize anybody in there. mr. liebeler. did you ever tell carlos bringuier that you had seen oswald anywhere? mr. pena. no. mr. liebeler. were you in the bar, the habana bar, at the time when your brother got into an argument with two mexicans or cubans about the bongo drums? mr. pena. it was me that had the argument with them. i had an argument with a couple of them over there over the problem of cuba, but i was not there when the incident that your question specifically asked about took place. mr. liebeler. now, you did have an argument with two mexicans about cuba; is that right? mr. pena. the problems of cuba. mr. liebeler. and did you call the fbi? mr. pena. bringuier did. mr. liebeler. bringuier called the fbi? mr. pena. yes. mr. liebeler. how many times did you see these men? mr. pena. the first time i saw them was in the bar, the two of them. it was in the evening we were having this discussion over the problems of cuba. the second time was or days later--i am not positive about that--when i saw them pass the bar in a little car. mr. liebeler. did you ask bringuier to call the fbi? mr. pena. yes. what i did was, when i saw them passing in the car--these two men that i mentioned, passing in a car--i went out and took the license number and i gave this to bringuier, carlos bringuier, and i asked bringuier to call the fbi because i wasn't able to speak english well enough, and that's it. mr. liebeler. had you, yourself, ever called the fbi or any other government agency about these two men before you told bringuier to call them? mr. pena. i didn't call anybody before i told bringuier to call them, the fbi. mr. liebeler. are you sure? mr. pena. i am sure. i gave bringuier the number and told him to call the fbi because i couldn't speak english well enough. mr. liebeler. well, do you remember discussing this question with mr. logan back in may, and mr. logan asked you this question at that time, and don't you remember that you told mr. logan that you had called the fbi or the immigration and naturalization service? mr. pena. no; i didn't, but at that time, i just have said that i called one because it mentions there about the telephone. i just can't remember it now. mr. liebeler. why did you ask bringuier to call the fbi, when you saw these men in the car? mr. pena. the night that i had the discussion with these two men, i got the impression that they were pro-castro and probably communists, so that's why, when i saw them go by in the car a couple of days later, i asked bringuier to call the fbi to denounce them, to turn them in or denounce them, or to let them know that they were about. mr. liebeler. why didn't you call the fbi when you talked to them the first time? mr. pena. the first reason i did not call the fbi the first time was because this discussion took place at night and that, as soon as the discussion was terminated, these two men left, and so it just sort of ended right there. then, when i saw them again, i got bringuier to try to call them. mr. liebeler. did bringuier tell you that he did call the fbi? mr. pena. he called the fbi right in front of me. mr. liebeler. were you there when bringuier called the fbi? mr. pena. yes. i was right there when he was supposed to have called them. mr. liebeler. where did bringuier call them from? mr. pena. called them from bringuier's store. that's the casa rocca. that's right down the street from me. it's decatur. it's the casa rocca. it's a store. that's where the call was made from. mr. liebeler. did bringuier tell you who he talked to at the fbi? mr. pena. no. mr. liebeler. did these two men have anything to do with oswald, as far as you know? mr. pena. as far as i know, no. mr. liebeler. have you ever seen them again after you saw them in the car? mr. pena. no; never saw them since. mr. liebeler. have you ever been in favor of fidel castro in the early times? mr. pena. i have never been friendly toward castro. i am more or less pro-batista. mr. liebeler. do you have any information as to where these two men could be found now? mr. pena. no; i don't have any information. i am under the impression that one was a cuban and one was a mexican because of their method of speaking spanish, which varies from each spanish country, like a cuban speaking can recognize a mexican by his language rather than his appearance. mr. liebeler. what is the answer to the question? mr. pena. the answer to the question is that i do not have any information as to where these two men can be found now. mr. liebeler. did you give bringuier the license number of the automobile? mr. pena. yes; i gave it to bringuier. mr. liebeler. did bringuier give it to the fbi? mr. pena. bringuier gave it to them, the fbi, over the telephone. mr. liebeler. you are sure that you were present when bringuier talked to the fbi? mr. pena. the thing is, i was there when bringuier made a call supposedly to the fbi, but i can't say and won't say that i know bringuier was talking to the fbi. actually, as a matter of fact, he could have been talking to just anybody. that's what he just said. mr. liebeler. you had that problem because of your difficulty understanding the english language? mr. pena. the idea is that i was there when the call was made, but i don't know. as far as i am concerned, bringuier was talking to the fbi. mr. liebeler. it says here in this report that you weren't even there. (discussion between witness and interpreter.) mr. logan. he is telling me now about all the people that are exiles that are in cuba. they hollered, "yankee, no." but that's not pertinent. you want me to ask him again about his being present and see if we can make him remember? mr. liebeler. why does he mention this thing about cuba? he is not one of them? mr. logan. i dare say it is part of his nature. he is telling me that we have to be careful of all of these people, which we already know. mr. liebeler. now, mr. pena, did you tell mr. logan and agent de brueys that you were not present when carlos called the fbi? mr. pena. i don't know that i remember telling you that, but i say now that i was present when that call was made. mr. liebeler. now mr. bringuier said that you told him that one of the two mexicans had been in the bar with oswald. is that correct? mr. pena. i never told bringuier that. mr. liebeler. and you couldn't have told bringuier that because you weren't even in the bar when oswald was there and you never saw the man who was with oswald? mr. pena. that's right. i wasn't in the bar when---- mr. liebeler. do you have any knowledge that oswald was connected in any way with any conspiracy to assassinate the president? mr. pena. i have no information that oswald was ever connected with any organization or conspiracy to assassinate the president. mr. liebeler. is there anything else that you would like to tell us about this whole affair? mr. pena. i have no further information outside of what i have already said regarding the two mexicans. mr. liebeler. all right. thank you very much. testimony of sylvia odio the testimony of sylvia odio was taken at a.m., on july , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. liebeler. would you please rise and take the oath? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mrs. odio. yes; i do. mr. liebeler. please sit down. my name is wesley j. liebeler. i am an attorney on the staff of the president's commission investigating the assassination of president kennedy. i have been authorized to take your testimony by the commission, pursuant to authority granted to the commission by executive order dated november , , and joint resolution of congress no. . under the rules of the commission, you are entitled to have an attorney present, if you wish one. you are also entitled to days' notice of the hearing, and you are not required to answer any question that you think might incriminate you or might violate some other privilege you may have. i think the secret service did call you, or martha joe stroud, here in the u.s. attorney's office, called you and gave you notice. mrs. odio. yes. mr. liebeler. do you wish to have an attorney present? mrs. odio. no; i don't think so. mr. liebeler. we want to ask you some questions about the possibility that you saw lee harvey oswald. mrs. odio. before you start, let me give you a letter of my father's which he wrote me from prison. you can have it. it was very funny, because at the time he wrote it, the fbi incident happened a week later. i told my father this man had been in my house and he introduced himself as your friend; and he wrote me back in december telling me that such people were not his friends, and he said not to receive anybody in my house, and not any of them were his friends, and he didn't know those people. at the time i did give the names of one or two, and he wrote back, "i actually don't know who they are." mr. liebeler. let's come to this during the course of the questioning, but i am glad you brought it up. i do want to get to it, because it may help us determine who these people were. mrs. odio. yes. mr. liebeler. first of all, would you tell us where you were born? mrs. odio. in havana, cuba. mr. liebeler. approximately when? mrs. odio. . mr. liebeler. how long did you live in cuba? mrs. odio. until, well, i studied in the united states, so i mean--you mean my whole life until--it was . mr. liebeler. ? mrs. odio. yes. mr. liebeler. then you left cuba and came to the united states, is that correct? mrs. odio. yes. mr. liebeler. where did you come to in the united states? mrs. odio. we first came to miami, and we stayed there just a few days and left for ponce, puerto rico, and we stayed there years. mr. liebeler. then from ponce, did you come to dallas? mrs. odio. from ponce, i came straight to dallas last year, march of last year. mr. liebeler. so that you have been in dallas since march of , is that correct? mrs. odio. that's right. mr. liebeler. you indicated that you had gone to school in the united states. where? mrs. odio. eden hall convent of the sacred heart, in philadelphia. mr. liebeler. how long did you go to school there? mrs. odio. three years. mr. liebeler. that is what, high school? mrs. odio. that's right. from to . mr. liebeler. was that period of years the only time you were in the united states prior to the time that you came to dallas in march of ? the only time in the united states over any extended period of time? mrs. odio. excuse me, when i got married in , i stayed months-- months in new orleans. mr. liebeler. so that you lived in the united states for months in ? mrs. odio. that's right. mr. liebeler. you had been in philadelphia for years from on, is that correct? mrs. odio. no; from to , when i graduated. mr. liebeler. and for the period in new orleans and when you came to the united states finally? mrs. odio. in , december , . mr. liebeler. so after you came in december of , you went to puerto rico and lived in puerto rico for years, and you came to dallas in and you have been here ever since? mrs. odio. that's right. mr. liebeler. would you tell us briefly what your educational background is, mrs. odio? mrs. odio. well, i had grammar school in cuba. i started high school in cuba and then i was sent to the sacred heart and i applied for college, and went back and studied law in the university of villanova. i did not finish because my career was interrupted because of castro, and i didn't finish law. mr. liebeler. how much training did you have in law? mrs. odio. i had almost years. mr. liebeler. of law study in cuba? mrs. odio. yes. mr. liebeler. my record indicates that on december , , you were interviewed by two agents of the fbi, mr. james p. hosty and bardwell d. odum. do you remember that? mrs. odio. that's correct. mr. liebeler. it is my understanding that they interviewed you at your place of work, is that correct? mrs. odio. yes. mr. liebeler. do you remember approximately what they asked you and what you told them? mrs. odio. i think i remember. not exactly, but i think i can recall the conversation. mr. liebeler. would you give us the content of that conversation, as best you can recall it? mrs. odio. they told me they were coming because of the assassination of president kennedy, that they had news that i knew or i had known lee harvey oswald. and i told them that i had not known him as lee harvey oswald, but that he was introduced to me as leon oswald. and they showed me a picture of oswald and a picture of ruby. i did not know ruby, but i did recall oswald. they asked me about my activities in jure. that is the junta revolutionary, and it is led by manolo ray. i told him that i did belong to this organization because my father and mother had belonged in cuba, and i had seen him (ray) in puerto recently, and that i knew him personally, and that i did belong to jure. they asked me about the members here in dallas, and i told him a few names of the cubans here. they asked me to tell the story about what happened in my house. mr. liebeler. who was it that you had seen in puerto rico? mrs. odio. mr. ray, i had seen. he was a very close friend of my father and mother. he hid in my house several times in cuba. so they asked me to tell him how i came to know oswald, and i told them that it was something very brief and i could not recall the time, exact date. i still can't. we more or less have established that it was the end of september. and, of course, my sister had recognized him at the same time i did, but i did not say anything to her. she came very excited one day and said, "that is the man that was in my house." and i said, "yes; i remember." mr. liebeler. tell us all the circumstances surrounding the event when oswald came to your house. mrs. odio. well, i had been having little groups of cubans coming to my house who have been asking me to help them in jure. they were going to open a revolutionary paper here in dallas. and i told them at the time i was very busy with my four children, and i would help, in other things like selling bonus to help buy arms for cuba. and i said i would help as much as i could. those are my activities before oswald came. of course, all the cubans knew that i was involved in jure, but it did not have a lot of sympathy in dallas and i was criticized because of that. mr. liebeler. because of what now? mrs. odio. because i was sympathetic with ray and this movement. ray has always had the propaganda that he is a leftist and that he is castro without castro. so at that time i was planning to move over to oak cliff because it was much nearer to my work in irving. so we were all involved in this moving business, and my sister annie, who at the time was staying with some american friends, had come over that weekend to babysit for me. it either was a thursday or a friday. it must have been either one of those days, in the last days of september. and i was getting dressed to go out to a friend's house, and she was staying to babysit. like i said, the doorbell rang and she went over--she had a housecoat on--she wasn't dressed properly--and came back and said, "sylvia, there are three men at the door, and one seems to be an american, the other two seem to be cubans. do you know them?" so i put a housecoat on and stood at the door. i never opened my door unless i know who they are, because i have had occasions where cubans have introduced themselves as having arrived from cuba and known my family, and i never know. so i went to the door, and he said, "are you sarita odio?" and i said, "i am not. that is my sister studying at the university of dallas. i am sylvia." then he said, "is she the oldest?" and i said, "no; i am the oldest." and he said, "it is you we are looking for." so he said, "we are members of jure." this at the time struck me funny, because their faces did not seem familiar, and i asked them for their names. one of them said his name was leopoldo. he said that was his war name. in all this underground, everybody has a war name. this was done for safety in cuba. so when everybody came to exile, everyone was known by their war names. and the other one did give me his name, but i can't recall. i have been trying to recall. it was something like angelo. i have never been able to remember, and i couldn't be exact on this name, but the other one i am exact on; i remember perfectly. mr. liebeler. let me ask you this before you go ahead with the story. which one of the men told you that they were members of jure and did most of the talking? was it the american? mrs. odio. the american had not said a word yet. mr. liebeler. which one of the cubans? mrs. odio. the american was in the middle. they were leaning against the staircase. there was a tall one. let me tell you, they both looked very greasy like the kind of low cubans, not educated at all. and one was on the heavier side and had black hair. i recall one of them had glasses, if i remember. we have been trying to establish, my sister and i, the identity of this man. and one of them, the tall one, was the one called leopoldo. mr. liebeler. he did most of the talking? mrs. odio. he did most of the talking. the other one kept quiet, and the american, we will call him leon, said just a few little words in spanish, trying to be cute, but very few, like "hola," like that in spanish. mr. liebeler. did you have a chain on the door, or was the door completely opened? mrs. odio. i had a chain. mr. liebeler. was the chain fastened? mrs. odio. no; i unfastened it after a little while when they told me they were members of jure, and were trying to let me have them come into the house. when i said no, one of them said, "we are very good friends of your father." this struck me, because i didn't think my father could have such kind of friends, unless he knew them from anti-castro activities. he gave me so many details about where they saw my father and what activities he was in. i mean, they gave me almost incredible details about things that somebody who knows him really would or that somebody informed well knows. and after a little while, after they mentioned my father, they started talking about the american. he said, "you are working in the underground." and i said, "no, i am sorry to say i am not working in the underground." and he said, "we wanted you to meet this american. his name is leon oswald." he repeated it twice. then my sister annie by that time was standing near the door. she had come to see what was going on. and they introduced him as an american who was very much interested in the cuban cause. and let me see, if i recall exactly what they said about him. i don't recall at the time i was at the door things about him. i recall a telephone call that i had the next day from the so-called leopoldo, so i cannot remember the conversation at the door about this american. mr. liebeler. did your sister hear this man introduced as leon oswald? mrs. odio. she says she doesn't recall. she could not say that it is true. i mean, even though she said she thought i had mentioned the name very clearly, and i had mentioned the names of the three men. mr. liebeler. but she didn't remember it? mrs. odio. no; she said i mentioned it, because i made a comment. this i don't recall. i said, "i am going to see antonio alentado," which is one of the leaders of the jure here in dallas. and i think i just casually said, "i am going to mention these names to him to see if he knows any of them." but i forgot about them. mr. liebeler. did your sister see the men? mrs. odio. she saw the three of them. mr. liebeler. have you discussed this with her since that time? mrs. odio. i just had to discuss it because it was bothering me. i just had to know. mr. liebeler. did she think it was oswald? mrs. odio. well, her reaction to it when oswald came on television, she almost passed out on me, just like i did the day at work when i learned about the assassination of the president. her reaction was so obvious that it was him, i mean. and my reaction, we remember oswald the day he came to my house because he had not shaved and he had a kind of a very, i don't know how to express it, but some little hairs like if you haven't shaved, but it is not a thick moustache, but some kind of shadow. that is something i noticed. and he was wearing--the other ones were wearing white dirty shirts, but he was wearing a long sleeved shirt. mr. liebeler. what kind of shirt was it, a white shirt? mrs. odio. no; it was either green or blue, and he had it rolled up to here. mr. liebeler. almost to his elbows? mrs. odio. no; less than that, just the ends of the sleeves. mr. liebeler. did he have a tie? mrs. odio. no tie. mr. liebeler. was it a sport shirt, or working shirt? mrs. odio. he had it open. i don't know if he had a collar or not, but it was open. and the other one had a white undershirt. one of them was very hairy. where was i? i just want to remember everything. mr. liebeler. you mentioned when your sister saw oswald's picture on television that she almost passed out. did she recognize him, do you know, as the man that had been in the apartment? mrs. odio. she said, "sylvia, you know that man?" and i said "yes," and she said, "i know him." "he was the one that came to our door, and it couldn't be so, could it?" that was our first interview. we were very much concerned after that. we were concerned and very scared, because i mean, it was such a shock. this man, the other one, the second cuban, took out a letter written in spanish, and the content was something like we represent the revolutionary counsel, and we are making a big movement to buy arms for cuba and to help overthrow the dictator castro, and we want you to translate this letter and write it in english and send a whole lot of them to different industries to see if we can get some results. this same petition had been asked of me by alentado who was one of the leaders of jure, here in dallas. he had made this petition to me, "sylvia, let's write letters to different industries to see if we can raise some money." i had told him too, i was very busy. so i asked and i said, "are you sent by alentado? is this a petition?" mr. liebeler. you mentioned this alentado who was one of the jure representatives here in dallas. is that his full name? mrs. odio. his name is antonio. mr. liebeler. do you know a man by the name of george rodriguez alvareda? mrs. odio. yes. mr. liebeler. who is he? mrs. odio. he is another member of jure. and at the time, a little after that, after december, i was more in contact with him, and i will tell you why later. they are all members of jure here in dallas, working hard. and so i asked him if they were sent by him, and he said, "no". and i said, "do you know eugenio?" this is the war name for ----. that is his war name and everybody underground knows him as eugenio. so i didn't mention his real name. he didn't know. mr. liebeler. who did you ask this? mrs. odio. i asked these men when they came to the door--i asked if they had been sent by alentado, because i explained to them that he had already asked me to do the letters and he said no. and i said, "were you sent by eugenio," and he said no. and i said, "were you sent by ray," and he said no. and i said, "well, is this on your own?" and he said, "we have just come from new orleans and we have been trying to get this organized, this movement organized down there, and this is on our own, but we think we could do some kind of work." this was all talked very fast, not as slow as i am saying it now. you know how fast cubans talk. and he put the letter back in his pocket when i said no. and then i think i asked something to the american, trying to be nice, "have you ever been to cuba?" and he said, "no, i have never been to cuba." and i said, "are you interested in our movement?" and he said, "yes." this i had not remembered until lately. i had not spoken much to him and i said, "if you will excuse me, i have to leave," and i repeated, "i am going to write to my father and tell him you have come to visit me." and he said, "is he still in the isle of pines?" and i think that was the extent of the conversation. they left, and i saw them through the window leaving in a car. i can't recall the car. i have been trying to. mr. liebeler. do you know which one of the men was driving? mrs. odio. the tall one, leopoldo. mr. liebeler. leopoldo? mrs. odio. yes; oh, excuse me, i forgot something very important. they kept mentioning that they had come to visit me at such a time of night, it was almost o'clock, because they were leaving for a trip. and two or three times they said the same thing. they said, "we may stay until tomorrow, or we might leave tomorrow night, but please excuse us for the hour." and he mentioned two or three times they were leaving for a trip. i didn't ask where, and i had the feeling they were leaving for puerto rico or miami. mr. liebeler. but they did not indicate where they were going? mrs. odio. the next day leopoldo called me. i had gotten home from work, so i imagine it must have been friday. and they had come on thursday. i have been trying to establish that. he was trying to get fresh with me that night. he was trying to be too nice, telling me that i was pretty, and he started like that. that is the way he started the conversation. then he said, "what do you think of the american?" and i said, "i didn't think anything." and he said, "you know our idea is to introduce him to the underground in cuba, because he is great, he is kind of nuts." this was more or less--i can't repeat the exact words, because he was kind of nuts. he told us we don't have any guts, you cubans, because president kennedy should have been assassinated after the bay of pigs, and some cubans should have done that, because he was the one that was holding the freedom of cuba actually. and i started getting a little upset with the conversation. and he said, "it is so easy to do it." he has told us. and he (leopoldo) used two or three bad words, and i wouldn't repeat it in spanish. and he repeated again they were leaving for a trip and they would like very much to see me on their return to dallas. then he mentioned something more about oswald. they called him leon. he never mentioned the name oswald. mr. liebeler. he never mentioned the name of oswald on the telephone? mrs. odio. he never mentioned his last name. he always referred to the american or leon. mr. liebeler. did he mention his last name the night before? mrs. odio. before they left i asked their names again, and he mentioned their names again. mr. liebeler. but he did not mention oswald's name except as leon? mrs. odio. on the telephone conversation he referred to him as leon or an american. he said he had been a marine and he was so interested in helping the cubans, and he was terrific. that is the words he more or less used, in spanish, that he was terrific. and i don't remember what else he said, or something that he was coming back or something, and he would see me. it's been a long time and i don't remember too well, that is more or less what he said. mr. liebeler. did you have an opinion at that time as to why leopoldo called you back? what was his purpose in calling you back? mrs. odio. at first, i thought he was just trying to get fresh with me. the second time, it never occurred to me until i went to my psychiatrist. i used to go to see dr. einspruch in the southwestern medical school, and i used to tell him all the events that happened to me during the week. and he relates that i mentioned to him the fact that these men had been at my door, and the fact that these cubans were trying to get in the underground, and thought i was a good contact for it, they were simply trying to introduce him. anyhow, i did not know for what purpose. my father and mother are prisoners, and you never know if they can blackmail you or they are going to get them out of there, if you give them a certain amount of money. you never know what to expect. i expect anything. later on i did establish opinions, because you can't help but establish opinions. mr. liebeler. did you establish that opinion after the assassination or before the assassination? mrs. odio. this first opinion that i mentioned to my psychiatrist, i did not give it a second thought. i forgot to tell alentado about it; except days later i wrote to my father after they came, and mentioned the fact that the two men had called themselves friends of his. and later in december, because the letter takes a long time to get here, he writes me back, "i do not know any of these men. do not get involved with any of them." mr. liebeler. you have already given us a copy of the letter that you received from your father in which he told you that these people were not his friends, and told you not to get involved with them? mrs. odio. that's right. mr. liebeler. did you tell your father the names of these men when you wrote to him? mrs. odio. yes. mr. liebeler. your father did not, however, mention their names in his letter, did he? mrs. odio. he mentioned their war names, because this was the only thing i knew. i probably put an americano came too, two cubans with an american, and i gave the names of the cubans. mr. liebeler. the copy of the letter that you gave to me this morning, we will mark as odio exhibit no. . mrs. odio. he mentioned in the second paragraph, "you are very alone there in dallas. you don't have anybody, so please do not open your door to anybody that calls themselves my friends." mr. liebeler. i have initialed the letter and i would like to have you put your initials under my initials for the purpose of identifying the exhibit. mrs. odio. yes, okay. mr. liebeler. the letter is in spanish, and you have underlined certain parts of it about three-quarters of the way down, in spanish. would you read that translation to us? mrs. odio. "please tell me again who it is that calls himself my friend. be careful. i do not have any friends that have been near me lately, not even in dallas. so do not establish any friendships until you give me their full names again." mr. liebeler. does he say their "full names" in there? mrs. odio. their full names again, which means i had given their war names. mr. liebeler. so you must have given the name leopold? mrs. odio. he says, "you are very alone with no man to protect you, and you can be easily fooled." that is more or less what he says. we are brothers and sisters, a big family, and this has been very sad for both of them. i have little brothers in dallas in an orphanage. we have been, were a very united family, and he is always worried about us being alone after i divorced. he is still more worried, and he was always thinking that somebody could come in my door. he also had a thought that somebody could come by demanding money or something like that. you can probably have somebody who knows spanish do a better translation. mr. liebeler. this letter is dated december , , is that correct? mrs. odio. that's right. mr. liebeler. and it is dated nueva gerona. where is that? mrs. odio. the capital of isle of pines. mr. liebeler. your father is a prisoner there? mrs. odio. yes. mr. liebeler. are the prisoners permitted to write letters back and forth? mrs. odio. one letter a month, on one side. mr. liebeler. i would presume that the letters are read by castro's men? mrs. odio. they are all read. that is why i did not given him a lot of details. i managed to write very small so they would have a time reading it, like he does. you can see how perfectly he writes a letter. mr. liebeler. now, let me ask you how you managed to establish that these men came in late september. you previously stated that you couldn't remember the date exactly, but you had managed to establish it as being in late september. would you tell me the procedure that you went through to establish that date in your mind? mrs. odio. i told you my sister annie was staying with some american friends. she did not live with me. she had gone to live with the madlock's. and i called her many times to come and babysit for me during certain weekends, and she would come either on a thursday or friday, depending on when i called her. i told her that day that i was going out, but i wanted her to start packing for me because we were moving over to oak cliff. it must have been the last days of september, because we had already packages in the living room. we had already started to pack to go, and we had to move by the first of october since my rent was due that day, you see. mr. liebeler. now, you did move? mrs. odio. we did move the first of october to oak cliff. mr. liebeler. what was the address of the apartment in which you lived before you moved to oak cliff? mrs. odio. over in, it was, i am almost sure of the number-- magellan circle. it is the crestwood apartments. i am not sure of the number; i think it is. mr. liebeler. in any event, you were living at the crestwood apartments at the time these men came to your apartment? mrs. odio. that's right. the crestwood apartments are full of cubans. mr. liebeler. you left the crestwood apartments as of the first of october and moved to oak cliff? mrs. odio. that's right exactly. mr. liebeler. now, you are absolutely sure that these men came to your apartment before the first of october? mrs. odio. before the first of october. mr. liebeler. it would have been sometime toward the end of september, because you recall that you had already started to pack to move from the crestwood apartments to oak cliff? mrs. odio. the packages were in the living room, and annie was helping me. she was actually taking things out of the closet when they came. it took a long time to be sure of that, but i am certain of that. mr. liebeler. have you discussed this with your sister, annie? mrs. odio. we had to, yes, sir; and she was convinced it was in late september. because she had not come the previous week. for weeks, she had not come, but had come the last week to help me pack and move. mr. liebeler. did you have a lease on your apartment, at the crestwood apartments? mrs. odio. no; they don't take you by lease. you give a deposit, and you lose it if you move before months. mr. liebeler. had you lived at the crestwood apartments months? mrs. odio. no. i have told you i moved several times, and it is because of reasons of my work, and because my children at the time were in puerto rico, and i went down to get them in puerto rico june th. that was exactly the day that i saw ray again. we had been trying to establish a contact in dallas with mr. johnny martin, who is from uruguay. he is from there, and he had heard that i was involved in this movement. and he said that he had a lot of contacts in latin america to buy arms, particularly in brazil, and that if he were in contact with one of our chief leaders of the underground, he would be able to sell him second-hand arms that we could use in our revolution. i don't know if this is legal or illegal, i have no idea. but when he mentioned this fact, i jumped at the possibility that something could be done, because you kind of get desperate when you see your father and mother in prison, and you want to do something for them. so i called eugenio long distance from dallas. mr. liebeler. when was that, approximately? shortly after you came back from puerto rico? mrs. odio. i think i can give you the exact date. this was before i left for puerto rico. june , eugenio arrived from miami to see johnny martin. mr. liebeler. so you say that on june eugenio arrived from miami, is that correct? mrs. odio. he was supposed to have arrived june , but he never did, and i called two times to make another appointment with johnny, and he just arrived in time for me to see him. then it was a time when we met, not alentado, the other one, alvareda--rodriguez alvareda. so they went to my house. now, i was living at the time at oram street, the day they arrived. but when i went back to puerto rico, the same day, june , i saw ray, and i explained to him what johnny martin here in dallas was up to, and then he said that he was planning a trip also to see if something could be worked out. mr. ray himself was planning a trip in connection with that. he was going to washington to be interviewed by some high official. mr. liebeler. but he was going to come by dallas first? mrs. odio. yes. so i went to ponce, puerto rico, to get my children, which were four of them, and i brought them back to dallas. and this is when i moved to magellan circle to a bigger apartment, to the crestwood apartments. mr. liebeler. you moved there, after you came back from puerto rico with your children? mrs. odio. i moved there exactly the end of july, the end of the month, because i know when i moved, and then it was in august--let's see, i lived there july, august, and to the last day of september in this magellan circle, and then i moved to oak cliff. mr. liebeler. you actually did meet with eugenio here in dallas before you went to puerto rico? mrs. odio. oh, yes. mr. liebeler. did eugenio come to dallas at any other time after that to meet you? mrs. odio. no. mr. liebeler. how many times have you met with eugenio here in dallas? mrs. odio. once. mr. liebeler. that was in june of ? mrs. odio. that's right. mr. liebeler. so it was not eugenio who was with leon when those men came to your apartment? mrs. odio. no; i would have known eugenio. he was a very close friend of my family and he did underground activity with my mother and father. mr. liebeler. did you ever tell anybody that it was eugenio who had come to the apartment with leon? mrs. odio. no. mr. liebeler. do you know father mckann? mrs. odio. yes. mr. liebeler. do you remember that he called you on the telephone? mrs. odio. yes; he did call me on the telephone. mr. liebeler. on april , ? mrs. odio. the date, i don't recall. probably. mr. liebeler. it was approximately the end of april or early may of when he called you from new orleans? mrs. odio. from new orleans. mr. liebeler. do you remember discussing this whole question with him at that time? mrs. odio. yes. he asked me if i was withholding evidence of any kind. mr. liebeler. what did you tell him? mrs. odio. i told him that everything that i knew i had already told him, and that i didn't know anything else that i could recall that could be important to you. mr. liebeler. the only time that you were ever interviewed by anybody in connection with this was when agent hosty came to your place of work that day, isn't that correct? mrs. odio. that's correct. but three times i noticed a car standing in front of my door where i live on lovers lane. i don't know if it belonged to the secret service or the fbi, but i was kind of concerned about it. mr. liebeler. did you tell father mckann that one of the men--did you tell him the names of the men who were there? mrs. odio. i told him what i knew, the names of the men that i knew. mr. liebeler. you told him one was leopoldo? mrs. odio. yes. mr. liebeler. but you did not tell him that you could identify the other man as eugenio? mrs. odio. that's right. mr. liebeler. you did not tell him that? mrs. odio. no. mr. liebeler. now, i have a report before me of an interview with father mckann by a representative of the u.s. secret service in which it states that father mckann told this secret service agent that you had told him that one of the men was eugenio. but you indicated now that that is not so? mrs. odio. no. perhaps he could have misunderstood me, because he has the same problems with names. probably i did tell him that the man was not eugenio. mr. liebeler. do you remember discussing with him eugenio's visit to you in june? mrs. odio. i think i discussed it with him, yes. mr. liebeler. during that telephone conversation? mrs. odio. yes; i think i discussed it. mr. liebeler. did you tell father mckann that the name oswald was never used in your presence by any of these men? mrs. odio. never was used except to introduce me, and the time when they left. they did not refer to him as oswald. mr. liebeler. but they did in fact, introduce him as leon oswald? mrs. odio. and i shook hands with him. mr. liebeler. that is also what you told agent hosty when he interviewed you on december , , and that is indicated in his report? mrs. odio. oh, yes. mr. liebeler. now, a report that we have from agent hosty indicates that when you told him about leopoldo's telephone call to you the following day, that you told agent hosty that leopoldo told you he was not going to have anything more to do with leon oswald since leon was considered to be loco? mrs. odio. that's right. he used two tactics with me, and this i have analyzed. he wanted me to introduce this man. he thought that i had something to do with the underground, with the big operation, and i could get men into cuba. that is what he thought, which is not true. when i had no reaction to the american, he thought that he would mention that the man was loco and out of his mind and would be the kind of man that could do anything like getting underground in cuba, like killing castro. he repeated several times he was an expert shotman. and he said, "we probably won't have anything to do with him. he is kind of loco." when he mentioned the fact that we should have killed president kennedy--and this i recall in my conversation--he was trying to play it safe. if i liked him, then he would go along with me, but if i didn't like him, he was kind of retreating to see what my reaction was. it was cleverly done. mr. liebeler. so he actually played both sides of the fence? mrs. odio. that's right, both sides of the fence. mr. liebeler. did leopoldo tell you that leon had been in the armed forces? mrs. odio. yes. mr. liebeler. what did he tell you about that? mrs. odio. he said he had been in the marines. that is what he said. mr. liebeler. did he tell you that leon could help in the underground activities in which you were presumably engaged? mrs. odio. that's right. mr. liebeler. have you ever talked to eugenio about this matter since it happened? mrs. odio. no, i have not even contacted him. mr. liebeler. is your sister annie in dallas now? mrs. odio. she is coming now the end of july. mr. liebeler. she is not here now? mrs. odio. no, she is coming from florida. she is coming to live with me. she spent months with my brother. mr. liebeler. can you tell us what her address is in florida? mrs. odio. yes. she is in--wait second--southwest d place, miami, fla. mr. liebeler. how old were these two men that were with leon? mrs. odio. one of them must have been--he had a mark on his face like, i can't explain it--his complexion wasn't too soft. he was kind of like as if he had been in the sun. so he must have been about near , one of them. mr. liebeler. which one was that? mrs. odio. but the other one was young. that was the tall one. mr. liebeler. that was not leopoldo? mrs. odio. yes. mr. liebeler. alentado was younger? mrs. odio. yes. mr. liebeler. how old was he, would you say? mrs. odio. about , something like that. mr. liebeler. now how old would you say oswald was? did you form an opinion about that when you saw him at the time? mrs. odio. no; i have never thought about it. i mean, i never thought how old he was. he seemed to be a young man. i mean, not an old man. i would say he was a young man; yes. mr. liebeler. could you say how old you thought he was after you saw him that day in your apartment? mrs. odio. i can't say that. i can establish in my thoughts; yes, i could establish an age, but i didn't think of it at the time. mr. liebeler. what age would you establish you thought about it? mrs. odio. oh, or . mr. liebeler. have you read the newspapers and watched television since the assassination and observed oswald? mrs. odio. i read some of it. mr. liebeler. did you read how old he was? mrs. odio. i don't even know what age he is. mr. liebeler. about how tall was he? mrs. odio. he wasn't too tall. he was maybe inches taller than i am. mr. liebeler. how tall are you? mrs. odio. i am feet inches. mr. liebeler. so you think he was about feet ? mrs. odio. probably. mr. liebeler. about how was he built? was he a heavy man or a light man? mrs. odio. he was kind of a skinny man, because the shirt looked big on him, like it was borrowed. mr. liebeler. like it was borrowed from somebody else? mrs. odio. yes; that is the impression he gave me, because it kind of hung loose. mr. liebeler. didn't fit well? mrs. odio. it didn't fit. mr. liebeler. have you ever had anything to do with the dre movement here in dallas? mrs. odio. students revolutionary council, not at all. mr. liebeler. do you know any representatives of the dre? mrs. odio. i just knew one. mr. liebeler. who was that? mrs. odio. sarah castilo. now, i have heard about the directorate in new orleans, because i have family there and they told me about all the incidents about him in new orleans, about oswald giving propaganda in the street and how he was down in front of a judge and caused a fight with carlos bringuier, and that, of course, this man had been working pro-castro in this fair play for cuba. mr. liebeler. oswald, you mean? mrs. odio. oswald. mr. liebeler. do you know carlos? mrs. odio. yes; i have met him. i don't think he would remember me, but i know who carlos bringuier is. they call him carlitos. mr. liebeler. when did you meet him? mrs. odio. i think it was a long time ago in cuba, or i was introduced to him. mr. liebeler. you have never met him here in the united states? mrs. odio. no. mr. liebeler. who in new orleans told you about this incident between bringuier and oswald? mrs. odio. my family discussed it in new orleans how he had been handed the propaganda. the other member of the directorate came along, and they had a problem with him, because they were taken in front of a judge. this was true. mr. liebeler. have you read about that in the newspapers? mrs. odio. no; i haven't. this i know from my family, the information we heard from new orleans. mr. liebeler. how much of your family are living in new orleans? mrs. odio. i have an uncle and a cousin; a married cousin. mr. liebeler. which one of them told you about this? mrs. odio. i think it was my uncle. mr. liebeler. were you there at that time? mrs. odio. yes. mr. liebeler. in new orleans? mrs. odio. yes. mr. liebeler. what is your uncle's name? mrs. odio. agustin guitar. mr. liebeler. when was this that you discussed this with him? mrs. odio. february. mr. liebeler. in february of ? mrs. odio. yes. i remember that, because i had just come out of an operation. mr. liebeler. do you know a man by the name of joaquin martinez de pinillos? mrs. odio. no. mr. liebeler. do you know emanuel salvat? mrs. odio. i have heard about him very much. i know who he is, but i don't know him. mr. liebeler. do you associate him with one of the cuban organizations, salvat? mrs. odio. if i have heard something about him, it has been attached to some organization. mr. liebeler. you don't remember which one? mrs. odio. no. mr. liebeler. would it be the dre? mrs. odio. i can't say for sure. mr. liebeler. do you know a woman by the name of anna silvera? mrs. odio. i have heard about her, too. mr. liebeler. do you have any idea how these three men came to your apartment? have you ever thought about it and tried to establish any contact that they might have had with someone else that would have told them to come to your apartment? mrs. odio. they were coming from new orleans. mr. liebeler. they came directly from new orleans to your apartment? mrs. odio. if it was true. it is very easy to find out any cubans in dallas. either you look in the phone book, or you call the catholic relief service. if you say you are a friend of so and so, they will give you information enough. they will tell you where they live and what their phone number is and how to contact them. mr. liebeler. but you have no actual knowledge as to how these men came by your address? mrs. odio. i kind of asked them, and they told me because they knew my family. that is how they established the conversation. they knew him and wanted to help me, and knew i belonged to jure and all this. mr. liebeler. now, can you remember anything else about the incident when leon and the two men came to your apartment, or about the telephone call that you got from leopoldo, that you haven't already told me about? mrs. odio. no. if i have forgotten something, but i think all the important things i have told you, like the trip, that they were leaving for a trip. and this struck me funny, because why would they want to meet me, if they were leaving for some reason or purpose. and it has been a long time. you don't think about these things every day and i am trying real hard to remember everything i can. mr. liebeler. now, is there anything else that you think we should know about that we haven't already asked you about in connection with this whole affair? mrs. odio. no. it would be involving my opinion, but anything that is real facts of the thing, that really happened. mr. liebeler. is this the only time you ever saw the man called leon oswald? mrs. odio. the only time. mr. liebeler. have you ever told anybody else that you have seen him other times? mrs. odio. no, i don't think. it would be silly to withhold any information. i mean, the involvement was very slight, and look how much involved you get just from meeting him once. i have a pretty good idea who called the fbi. mr. liebeler. about what? mrs. odio. you see, i did not call the fbi to tell them this fact. mr. liebeler. why not? mrs. odio. i was going to, but i had to get around to it to do it myself, because at the time everything was so confused and everybody was so excited about it, and i wanted to wait to see if it was important. mr. liebeler. who do you think called the fbi? mrs. odio. mrs. connell, i think. mr. liebeler. when you were interviewed by the fbi at your place of work, did you have any opinion about the way that interview was conducted? mrs. odio. yes. it brought me a lot of problems in my work. the two men were extremely polite and nice, the two gentlemen from the fbi. you know how people were afraid at the time, and my company, some officials of it were quite concerned that the fbi should have come to see me. mr. liebeler. have you discussed with alentado these two men and how they came to see you? mrs. odio. i never talked to him about it. i decided not to mention anything after the fbi came to see me, because i thought they were going to contact him. i think i gave them the address and the telephone number. mr. liebeler. you gave that to the fbi? mrs. odio. yes. he actually wouldn't know anything about it. mr. liebeler. you say that because you asked these men if they had been sent by alentado and they said no? mrs. odio. that's right. mr. liebeler. mrs. connell that you refer to is mrs. c. l. connell, is that correct? mrs. odio. yes. mr. liebeler. how do you know her? mrs. odio. it is a strange thing. everything that has happened to me in the past year has been very strange. but i came from ponce because i was mentally sick at the time. i was very emotionally disturbed, and they thought that a change from puerto rico to dallas where my sister was would improve me, which it did, of course. and i was supposed to see dr. cowley in terrell. he is a cuban psychiatrist, but he was busy at the time and he couldn't help me. mrs. connell belonged to the mental health and at the time she had helped the cuban group some because they had money, and i was introduced by my sister. mr. liebeler. which one? mrs. odio. sarita. she actually sent part of the money for my trip to come here to dallas. mr. liebeler. mrs. connell? mrs. odio. yes. so i met her. we became very, very close friends, extremely close, and she talked to dr. stubblefield and she got me a psychiatrist which was dr. einspruch. i was here months before i went to get my children. we were close, like i said. mr. liebeler. what makes you think she called the fbi about this? mrs. odio. i am not certain of this, but i did discuss this with her after it happened, because i trusted her completely. i discussed it and told her that i was frightened, i didn't know what to do. i did not know if it was anything of importance that i should tell the fbi. and i was the only person--she was the only person i told. mr. liebeler. did you tell dr. einspruch about it? mrs. odio. yes; but the things you talk with a doctor in an office, he will tell you before that he is going to say it. he would have told me, "i am going to tell the fbi." you have to trust a doctor, especially a psychiatrist. i know they talked to him later, but i don't think it was him that called the fbi. mr. liebeler. did you tell mrs. connell that you had seen oswald at some anti-castro meetings, and that he had made some talks to these groups of refugees, and that he was very brilliant and clever and captivated the people to whom he had spoken? mrs. odio. no. mr. liebeler. you are sure you never told her that? mrs. odio. no. mr. liebeler. have you ever seen oswald at any meetings? mrs. odio. never. this is something when you talk to somebody, she probably was referring--we did have some meetings, yes. john martino spoke, who was an american, who was very clever and brilliant. i am not saying that she is lying at all. when you are excited, you might get all your facts mixed up, and martino was one of the men who was in isle of pines for years. and he mentioned the fact that he knew mr. odio, that mr. odio's daughters were in dallas, and she went to that meeting. i did not go, because they kept it quiet from me so i would not get upset about it. i don't know if you know who john martino is. mr. liebeler. is that the same man as johnny martin? mrs. odio. no. mr. liebeler. a different one? mrs. odio. yes. mr. liebeler. who is he? mrs. odio. martino is one that has written a book called "i was a prisoner in castro cuba," and he was on the isle of pines for years. he came to dallas and gave a talk to the cubans about conditions in cuba, and she was one of the ones that went to the meeting. mr. liebeler. mrs. connell? mrs. odio. yes; and my sister annie went, too. mr. liebeler. did dr. einspruch tell you that he had talked to the fbi? mrs. odio. yes. mr. liebeler. about this? mrs. odio. yes. mr. liebeler. did he tell you roughly what his conversation with the fbi was? mrs. odio. he told me that they had asked him if i had hallucinations, that i was a person who was trying to make up some kind of story. that was the context of our story. i trusted dr. einspruch very much. he always told me the truth. mr. liebeler. did he tell you he had told the fbi that you did not have hallucinations and you had probably not made this up? mrs. odio. yes. other people make it up, but---- mr. liebeler. did mr. einspruch tell you he had discussed this question with some representatives of the president's commission? mrs. odio. yes. mr. liebeler. did he tell you what that conversation was about? mrs. odio. he told me that they had talked about an hour and a half about this whole thing, and he told them that he had already told me the whole facts of the thing, and he said let's not mention it any more. you know what we discussed. don't be afraid. mr. liebeler. are you still seeing dr. einspruch? mrs. odio. no; i am through with therapy. he left. mr. liebeler. he is no longer in dallas? mrs. odio. no; he left for philadelphia for the u.s. naval hospital. mr. liebeler. did you tell dr. einspruch that you had seen oswald in more than one anti-castro cuban meeting? mrs. odio. no; i don't think so, because i have never seen him before except the day he came to the door. mr. liebeler. you have never seen him since? mrs. odio. no. mr. liebeler. you told us before that you had a fainting spell after you heard about the assassination. would you tell us about that, please? mrs. odio. well, i had been having fainting spells all the past year. i would pass out for hours, and this was part of my emotional problems. i was doing quite well except that i had come back from lunch, and i cannot deny that the news was a great shock to me, and i did pass out. i was taken in an ambulance to a hospital in irving. mr. liebeler. did you pass out as soon as you had heard that the president had been shot? mrs. odio. no; when i started thinking about it. mr. liebeler. had you heard that oswald was involved in it before you passed out? mrs. odio. can i say something off the record? mr. liebeler. yes. (witness talks off the record.) mr. liebeler. at this point, let's go back on the record. you indicated that you thought perhaps the three men who had come to your apartment had something to do with the assassination? mrs. odio. yes. mr. liebeler. and you thought of that before you had the fainting spell? mrs. odio. yes. of course, i have "psychiatric thinking." my psychiatrist says i have psychiatric thinking. i mean, i can perceive things very well. mr. liebeler. what kind of thinking? mrs. odio. he says i have tremendous intuition about things and psychiatric thinking, which has helped me many times. so immediately, for some reason, in my mind, i established a connection between the two greasy men that had come to my door and the conversation that the cubans should have killed president kennedy, and i couldn't believe it. i was so upset about it. so probably the lunch had something to do with it, too, and i was so upset, but that is probably why i passed out. mr. liebeler. had you heard the name oswald before you passed out? mrs. odio. no, sir. it was only the connection. mr. liebeler. you had made the connection in your mind between these three men that came to your apartment, and the assassination? mrs. odio. yes. mr. liebeler. primarily because of the remarks they had made about how the cubans should have assassinated president kennedy because of the bay of pigs situation, is that correct? mrs. odio. that's right. mr. liebeler. you had not seen any pictures of oswald or heard his name prior to the time of your passing out? mrs. odio. no; i don't recall--maybe you could tell me what the exact time they mentioned by the radio the name of the suspect. they spoke of a suspect all the time, but they did not mention any name. and i think i came out about o'clock that night. they gave me a shot, so i did not know any name until that night. mr. liebeler. what time did you pass out? mrs. odio. i came back from lunch about minutes before o'clock, because we had to punch the clock at , and by : we knew the president was dead, and we all decided to leave, and it was about minutes to that we walked out of the office, and i think i passed out back in the warehouse. mr. liebeler. just after you left the office? mrs. odio. yes. mr. liebeler. so it would have been sometime before o'clock or right after? mrs. odio. yes. mr. liebeler. did these men indicate that they had all come from new orleans together? mrs. odio. i am pretty sure that is what he said. either that they had been, or that they had just come. i cannot be sure of either one, but they had been in new orleans, or had just come from new orleans. mr. liebeler. would you recognize these men again if you saw their pictures, do you think? mrs. odio. i think i could recognize one of them. mr. liebeler. do you think they definitely look like cubans? mrs. odio. well, this is my opinion. they looked very much like mexicans. but i might be wrong at that, because i don't remember any mexican accent. but the color of mexicans, when i am referring to greasy, that kind of complexion, that is what i mean. mr. liebeler. when did you first become aware of the fact that this man who had been at your apartment was the man who had been arrested in connection with the assassination? mrs. odio. it was immediately. mr. liebeler. as soon as you saw his picture? mrs. odio. immediately; i was so sure. mr. liebeler. do you have any doubt about it? mrs. odio. i don't have any doubts. mr. liebeler. did you have any doubt about it then? mrs. odio. i kept saying it can't be to myself; it just can't be. i mean it couldn't be, but when my sister walked into the hospital and she said, "sylvia, have you seen the man?" and i said, "yes." and she said, "that was the man that was at the door of my house." so i had no doubts then. mr. liebeler. would you recognize this man's voice? mrs. odio. i don't know. i am not sure. mr. liebeler. i show you a photograph that has been marked as bringuier exhibit no. , and ask you if you can identify anybody in that photograph? mrs. odio. that is oswald. mr. liebeler. with the x? mrs. odio. yes. mr. liebeler. do you recognize anybody else in the picture? mrs. odio. no. mr. liebeler. i specifically call your attention to the man standing to oswald's right, the second man behind him, who is facing the camera and has in his hand some leaflets. mrs. odio. does he have some glasses on? mr. liebeler. the man that i just described? mrs. odio. does he have any glasses? mr. liebeler. let me see the picture. mrs. odio. he has the same build that that man has in the back. mr. liebeler. he has the same build? mrs. odio. a lot of hair here [pointing to the right temple]. mr. liebeler. you are pointing to this man here? mrs. odio. yes. mr. liebeler. you say that his hair appeared to be pulled back in some way? mrs. odio. one of them, leopoldo, or the other one. one has very thick hair. mr. liebeler. you are describing leopoldo? mrs. odio. he had hair in front, but he has it pushed back in here. mr. liebeler. like sort of a bald spot in his front? mrs. odio. yes. mr. liebeler. excuse me just a minute, i will be back. now, you have indicated that the individual standing immediately behind oswald and to his left, actually in front of the door of this building might look something like one of the men that was in your apartment? mrs. odio. that's right. that height and that tall. mr. liebeler. now, what about the man standing immediately next to him, so we have in the picture starting from the right, a head, and then a man standing in the opposite direction from oswald, and then we have oswald, and then we have the individual that you have just referred to about his pushed back hair, or the bald spot in the front, and then we have another man who has a group of leaflets in his hand. mrs. odio. he looks familiar, but i don't think that was one of the men i saw there at the door. i don't know, cubans sometimes have the same physique and everything, the narrowness of the shoulders. i mean the back looks something like this man i am telling you about. mr. liebeler. but you are unable to identify positively anybody else in the picture other than oswald? mrs. odio. no; that's correct. mr. liebeler. now, i show you a picture that has been marked pizzo exhibit no. -b, which appears to show a front view of the man with the bald spot, and i ask you if you recognize him as one of the men that was with oswald in the apartment. mrs. odio. no. mr. liebeler. are you sure that it was not, or you are unable to say? mrs. odio. no; that man was thinner and a little taller than that picture. mr. liebeler. now, you are referring---- mrs. odio. i am referring to this man now. mr. liebeler. you are referring to a man with the white shirt whose back is toward the camera? mrs. odio. yes. mr. liebeler. what about the man immediately behind oswald? mrs. odio. no; he was taller than that. mr. liebeler. let's refer to this as no. . does it appear to you that the man who is standing sort of sideways to the camera immediately behind oswald in pizzo exhibit no. -b is the same man as this man who is immediately behind oswald and facing away from the camera in bringuier exhibit no. ? mrs. odio. no; it seems like a different back to me. actually, possibly the same person, but for some reason, maybe the picture gives him a slimmer look. mr. liebeler. you keep referring in pizzo's exhibit to the man whose back is to the camera with a white shirt? mrs. odio. yes; he came with a white shirt. mr. liebeler. i am having trouble, because i first thought that this man here, who i will mark with the number in pizzo exhibit no. -b is the same as the man who i will mark as no. in bringuier's exhibit no. , but it appears that that is not so? mrs. odio. no; this man is this man in the picture. mr. liebeler. so we have established that no. in bringuier's exhibit no. is the same as the man marked no. in pizzo's exhibit no. -b? mrs. odio. exactly. mr. liebeler. and the man who we will mark in pizza's exhibit no. -b is the man marked in bringuier's exhibit no. ? mrs. odio. that's right. mr. liebeler. now, as far as the man marked no. in bringuier's exhibit no. is concerned, you think when you see him there, that might look like the man who was in the apartment? mrs. odio. he has the same build in the back, and same kind of profile, this side. here he looks a little broader, and that is not him. it is the same man, but that wasn't the way leopoldo looked. mr. liebeler. so the man marked in exhibit no. -b, pizzo, does not look like the man who was in your apartment? mrs. odio. no. mr. liebeler. you cannot in any event recognize the man who we shall mark in both pictures; is that correct? mrs. odio. correct. let me look at that man here [looking]. he wasn't one of them, but he looks so familiar to somebody, this one, the one that has his hand on his face. mr. liebeler. you indicate that the man who we shall mark in pizzo's exhibit no. -b looks somewhat familiar? mrs. odio. somewhat familiar; yes. mr. liebeler. now, i show you pizzo exhibit -a and ask you if you recognize anybody in that picture? mrs. odio. who is this man? mr. liebeler. you are referring to the man who we shall mark on exhibit no. -a. does he look familiar to you? mrs. odio. the color of him looks familiar. that was more or less the color of that short man. he did not look real white. mr. liebeler. does it appear to you that the man we have marked in exhibit no. -a is an oriental? mrs. odio. is an oriental? mr. liebeler. i don't know. does it look like it to you? mrs. odio. i don't know. i am just talking about the color of his face, the same color. now he looks more familiar in this picture, you see. mr. liebeler. when you say this, you point to the man who we will mark in pizzo exhibit no. -a, and he is the same man who is no. in pizzo exhibit no. -b, and no. in bringuier's exhibit no. ? they all seem to be the same man, don't they? mrs. odio. i think they are all the same man, but for some reason in this picture, he is wearing glasses, isn't he? mr. liebeler. well, it looks like it; doesn't it? mrs. odio. yes. mr. liebeler. did this man wear glasses who was in your apartment? mrs. odio. yes. mr. liebeler. he did? mrs. odio. didn't wear them all the time. mr. liebeler. now, do you recognize oswald in any of these pictures; in exhibit no. -a? mrs. odio. [pointing.] mr. liebeler. you indicate the man with the green x over his head as being oswald, and that is the man who was in your apartment? mrs. odio. he looks a little bit fatter. i don't know if it is the picture. he looked thinner when he was in the apartment, than he looks in this picture. he was kind of drawn when he was there. his face was kind of drawn. but he looks more familiar there. he looks more like he looked that day. mr. liebeler. in exhibit no. -b, the man with the green line over his head looks more like the man that was in your apartment; is that correct? mrs. odio. that's correct. mr. liebeler. do you have any doubt that that man with the green line over his head in pizzo exhibit no. -b was the man who was in your apartment? mrs. odio. well, if it is not, it is his twin. mr. liebeler. now, i show you a photograph that has been marked garner exhibit no. and ask you if you recognize that man. mrs. odio. that is oswald. mr. liebeler. is that the man who was in your apartment? mrs. odio. yes. mr. liebeler. are you sure? mrs. odio. he doesn't have the little thing, the little moustache that he had that day. he looks shaved there, and he did not look shaved that day. mr. liebeler. i show you pizzo exhibit no. -c and ask you if that looks like the man who was in your apartment? mrs. odio. that is not the expression he had, but he has the same forehead and everything. but his lips, the only thing that confuses me is the lips that did not look like the same man. it is that unshaved thing that got me that day. mr. liebeler. does pizzo exhibit no. -c appear to you, does the man in that picture appear to be somewhat unshaven, or similar to the one you saw in your apartment? mrs. odio. i think he was not. the only thing he had not shaved was around where the mouth is, and everything else was shaved. that is way he looked, kind of clothes hanging on him. mr. liebeler. do you think this man in pizzo exhibit no. -c is lee harvey oswald? mrs. odio. yes; i think that is him. mr. liebeler. do you think that is the man that was in your apartment? mrs. odio. well, let me say something. i think this man was the one that was in my apartment. i am not too sure of that picture. he didn't look like this. he was smiling that day. he was more smiling than in this picture. mr. liebeler. we have to put the pictures down on the record, because when somebody reads the record--you say that he---- mrs. odio. he looks more relaxed in exhibit no. -c. he looks more smiling, like exhibit no. -b, or different countenance. mr. liebeler. i have some motion pictures of the scene that we have been looking at here in these still pictures. these pictures that have been marked exhibit nos. -b and -c were taken from a movie that was made of that, and we also have on that movie a picture of lee oswald as he appeared on the television program in new orleans on a sound track. i want you to look at those pictures and tell us after you have looked at the pictures if you think that man was the same man who was in your apartment. i have not yet made arrangements for the projector to be set up, and there is an fbi agent bringing another picture over here from the fbi office that i want you to look at this morning before you leave. but i would like to have you--and i have another witness waiting for me, and i have nine more witnesses. could you come back later this evening to look at the motion pictures? and in the meantime, i will have the secret service set up a projection room to view the films? mrs. odio. yes. mr. liebeler. why don't we terminate momentarily now, and as soon as the fbi comes over, i will show you this picture, and i will call the secret service and find out when he can set up the viewing of this film, and i will tell you what time to come back. mrs. odio. since i am going to be downtown, do you want me to come back any special time? mr. liebeler. i will tell you as soon as i talk to mr. sorrels. mrs. odio. before i leave? mr. liebeler. i can't tell you before you leave. i will see if i can set up a time. when you say that these men came to your apartment in late september of , can you give me your best recollection as to how long before the first of october they came? you moved out of your apartment in the crestwood apartments on the very last day of september; is that correct? or can you remember? is there any way you can check that by finding out when you moved into your apartment in oak cliff? mrs. odio. the day i moved, i had gone to work, so it must have been on a monday or tuesday. this man must have come by the end of the previous weekend. mr. liebeler. i show you a calendar and point out to you that the last day of september was monday. mrs. odio. that is probably the day i moved. mr. liebeler. did you say that you also started working at a new job that same day? mrs. odio. no, sir. mr. liebeler. but you had been working on the day that you did move? mrs. odio. i started working initially the th of september, because it was too far away where i lived in irving. i started the th of september, i am almost sure of the th or the th. let me see what day was the th. it was a monday. it was the th, sir, that i started working at national chemsearch. (special agent bardwell o. odum of the federal bureau of investigation entered the hearing room.) mr. liebeler. this is mr. odum from the fbi. as a matter of fact, mr. odum was the man that interviewed you. mrs. odio. i remember. he looked very familiar. mr. odum. what is the name? mrs. odio. odio. mr. odum. i interview so many people, it slips my mind at the moment. (agent odum left the hearing room.) mr. liebeler. now, you have indicated on the calendar, you circled the th of september, and you drew a line around the th, th, and th of september. can you tell me what you meant by that? mrs. odio. the th was the day i moved. the th, th, and th, it could have been either of those days. it was not on a sunday. mr. liebeler. now you indicated previously that leopoldo called you the immediately following day after they had been there; is that correct? mrs. odio. that's correct. mr. liebeler. and you also testified, according to my recollection, that you had been at work on the day that leopoldo called you; is that correct? mrs. odio. yes; it would be the th or the th for sure. mr. liebeler. would you work on saturday? mrs. odio. no; but he could have called me saturday. but they would have come thursday or friday. mr. liebeler. thursday or friday? mrs. odio. that's right. mr. liebeler. because you had been at work on the day they came? mrs. odio. yes. mr. liebeler. do you remember whether you had been at work on the day that leopoldo called you? mrs. odio. i don't recall that. mr. liebeler. you can't recall that? mrs. odio. no. i know i was very busy with the kids, but i don't remember. mr. liebeler. i show you a picture which depicts the same individual that is depicted in an exhibit which has previously been marked commission exhibit no. , and i ask you if you recognize that man. mrs. odio. no, sir. mr. liebeler. that is not the man that was with leon when he came to your apartment? mrs. odio. no. i wish i could point him to you. one was very tall and slim, kind of. he had glasses, because he took them off and put them back on before he left, and they were not sunglasses. and the other one was short, very mexican looking. have you ever seen a short mexican with lots of thick hair and a lot of hair on his chest? mr. liebeler. so there was was a shorter one and a tall one, and the shorter one was rather husky? mrs. odio. he was not as big as this man. mr. liebeler. not as big as the man in exhibit no. ? mrs. odio. that's right. mr. liebeler. is that the man in exhibit no. that had a pushed back spot on his head? mrs. odio. it was different. in the middle of his head it was thick, and it looked like he didn't have any hair, and the other side, i didn't notice that. mr. liebeler. this was the taller man; is that right? the one known as leopoldo? mrs. odio. yes. mr. liebeler. about how much did the taller man weigh, could you guess? mrs. odio. he was thin--about pounds. mr. liebeler. how tall was he, about? mrs. odio. he was about - / inches, almost inches taller than i was. excuse me, he couldn't have. maybe it was just in the position he was standing. i know that made him look taller, and i had no heels on at the time, so he must have been feet; yes. mr. liebeler. and the shorter man was about how tall, would you say? was he taller or shorter than oswald? mrs. odio. shorter than oswald. mr. liebeler. about how much, could you guess? mrs. odio. five feet seven, something like that. mr. liebeler. so he could have been or inches shorter than oswald? mrs. odio. that's right. mr. liebeler. he weighed about how much, would you say? mrs. odio. pounds, something like that, because he was short, but he was stocky, and he was the one that had the strange complexion. mrs. liebeler. was it pock marked, would you say? mrs. odio. no; it was like--it wasn't, because he was, oh, it was like he had been in the sun for a long time. mr. liebeler. let's terminate now and we will resume when we show the film to you tonight. testimony of sylvia odio resumed the testimony of sylvia odio was taken at : p.m., on july , , at the office of the secret service, north ervay street, dallas, tex., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. forrest sorrels and john joe howlett, special agents of the u.s. secret service were present. mr. liebeler. this is the continued deposition of mrs. sylvia odio, which is now being continued in the office of the secret service. we have made arrangements in the presence of agent forrest sorrels and agent howlett, to show some movie films of some street scenes in the city of new orleans, and also a television appearance that lee harvey oswald made over station wdsu in new orleans in august of . i want to ask mrs. odio to watch the film, and if you recognize anybody in the film at any time say so as you see him and point the individual out and we will run the film backward and see what it looks like at that time. please go ahead, john. mrs. odio [viewing film]. the man from the back with the glasses, i have seen him, the tall thin one. i would like to see the beginning where the man started coming in. (film was rerun.) mrs. odio. you see the one with the glasses, that thin man. he doesn't have a mustache, though. mr. liebeler. that third man there? mrs. odio. i will show you the back when he comes. the man over to the right in the white shirt from the back, that looks so familiar. mr. liebeler. that one right over there? mrs. odio. right; he has the same build. mr. liebeler. can you back it up, john? let me ask you this now, sylvia. did you recognize lee harvey oswald? mrs. odio. oh, yes; definitely. he made a television appearance. he looked much more similar than the pictures from new orleans. he had the same mustache here. mr. liebeler. in the television appearance? mrs. odio. yes. mr. liebeler. what about in the pictures that you saw in the police station of him standing against the wall when he walked out of the police station, did that look like the man that was in your apartment? mrs. odio. yes. mr. liebeler. what about his voice? did you recognize any similarity in his voice? mrs. odio. no. i don't know if it was because in the television it changed, or something, and he didn't speak too much that day, and it is hard to remember a voice after such a long time. mr. liebeler. after looking at this picture, are you more convinced, or less convinced, or do you still have about the same feeling that you had before you looked at it that the man who was in your apartment late in september was the same man as lee harvey oswald? mrs. odio. i have to be careful about that, because i have the same feeling that it was, but at the same time i have been looking at papers for months and months of pictures, and these help you to remember too much. i wish i could isolate the incident without remembering the other pictures. i have a feeling there are certain pictures that do not resemble him. it was not the oswald that was standing in front of my door. he was kind of tired looking. he had a little smile, but he was sunken in in the face that day. more skinny, i would say. mr. liebeler. well, do you have any doubts in your mind after looking at these pictures that the man that was in your apartment was the same man as lee harvey oswald? mrs. odio. i don't have any doubts. mr. liebeler. do you want to run the picture once more, john? mrs. odio. what i am trying to establish is the man with the bald in the back was similar to the profile, but he seems lighter in this picture. but the men looked like mexicans. they did not look like cubans. mr. liebeler. now we have here two pictures that have been made from films of this movie. mrs. odio. in that picture he didn't resemble that at all [pointing]. mr. liebeler. you are referring to pizzo exhibit no. -b; the man marked with the number ? mrs. odio. that's right. mr. liebeler. that is the same man you have been talking about as looking similar? mrs. odio. that's right. but in the motion picture he looks thinner and i was trying to give you an idea of the man that i saw that day. mr. liebeler. do you think that the man you saw in the motion picture, who is the same man marked number in pizzo exhibit no. -b, could have been the same man that was in your apartment with oswald? mrs. odio. i think he had a mustache, and this man in the apartment does not have any mustache. mr. liebeler. but otherwise, you think that he looks similar? mrs. odio. they have the same stature and same build and profile. i can say he was standing to the side in the door, and his hair was pulled back on one side. mr. liebeler. do you want to run through it again, please? (film was rerun.) mrs. odio. the picture that resembled most, even though his hair was not so cut that day. mr. liebeler. you have referred to the individual that was walking out of the police station? mrs. odio. with his back. mr. liebeler. he had a mustache, and he had glasses on? mrs. odio. that day he did not have a mustache. he just had glasses, and he would take them off and on. lee oswald--leon is fatter in this picture than what i actually saw him. mr. liebeler. you think this man standing on the corner, who is no. in pizzo exhibit no. -b, is the same man you saw walking out of the police station? mrs. odio. no. mr. liebeler. it is a different man? mrs. odio. that's right. the one that is walking out of the door, kind of thin-looking individual, is darker. mr. liebeler. is the man that was walking out of the police station? mrs. odio. you want me to point it out? mr. liebeler. yes. run it back. i think we should indicate in the record there was a confusion in my mind, because i think it is pretty clear that the man that was walking out of the police station is a different man than is in pizzo exhibit no. -b. mrs. odio. he looked greasy looking. i will tell you when [looking at film]. mr. liebeler. is it that man with the sunglasses that walked out of the door? mrs. odio. that is the picture i see. that picture is what i mean. mr. liebeler. yes. there he is again [indicating individual with mustache leaving police station with carlos bringuier and others depicted on film]. mrs. odio. there he is again; big ears, but from the front, he doesn't resemble it. it is the same build from the back, that thin neck. mr. liebeler. you think that that man we have just seen in the picture resembles one of the men that was in your apartment? mrs. odio. from the back, because i remember that i put the light on on the porch, and i saw them get in the car. i wanted to be sure they were gone. mr. liebeler. but it is clearly not the same individual? mrs. odio. no, sir; clearly not the same. i am trying to see something, to put something in paper that would make me remember. [the film was rerun but the witness did not recognize anyone depicted on it except as indicated above.] mr. liebeler. thank you very much, mrs. odio. testimony of ruth hyde paine the testimony of ruth hyde paine was taken at : a.m., on july , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. liebeler. you are quite familiar with the proceedings of the commission and with the commission's rules governing the taking of testimony, since you have given testimony perhaps longer than any other witness we have had, so we won't go through all the rituals of explaining the purposes of why i am here, and i will come right to the point. in the testimony that you gave before the commission, mr. jenner asked you about the events of the evening of november , , as regards the relations between lee and marina. there was also considerable testimony about their whereabouts and about the possibility that oswald wrapped the rifle up that evening, but i am not particularly concerned about that. i do want to focus on your impression of the relations between lee and marina at that time. as i recall, the preceding sunday you had called oswald at his roominghouse and asked for lee oswald and, of course, were not able to talk to him because he was living there under the alias of o. h. lee. as i understand, on the following monday oswald called marina, as was his custom, and they had a considerable discussion over the use of the alias, and after that conversation, or conversations that took place on monday, lee did not call marina again that week; is that correct? mrs. paine. that's my impression. mr. liebeler. do you remember how many times oswald called marina on monday? mrs. paine. well, he called nearly every evening while he was working during the week--he usually called around : , just to talk. mr. liebeler. but specifically, on this monday following the sunday on which you called the roominghouse and asked for him, the monday on which they had the argument about his use of the alias, do you remember how many times he called and talked to marina on that day? mrs. paine. on that particular monday--only once, i think. mr. liebeler. only one time? mrs. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. did marina tell you, after she talked to him that monday, what the conversation was about? mrs. paine. yes; she did. mr. liebeler. what did she tell you? mrs. paine. she said--and i believe i have testified to this--that she was clearly upset. you are asking me what she told me of the conversation? mr. liebeler. yes. mrs. paine. i, of course, could tell that she was upset while talking to him, although i didn't understand much of what she said to him, as i was in the same room. she said that he was living under a different name; was angry that we had tried to call him and she said that this is not the first time she had felt between two fires, and i judge that she meant between a loyalty to him and a feeling that what he was doing was not right. mr. liebeler. did she say that this wasn't the first time that she felt between two fires, or did she use an expression that "this isn't the first time i felt fires?" mrs. paine. "between two fires," is my memory on that. twenty-two fires? this is a common expression in russian; it's like between the devil and the deep blue sea. mr. liebeler. between two fires, you mean? mrs. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. well, the only problem that i have is that on page of volume , of the page proofs your testimony indicates that. mrs. paine. that's why i would like to read my testimony. that's just incorrect. between fires--no, no--this is not it. this should be, "this is not the first time i felt between two fires," which, as i say, is like our expression, "between the devil and the deep blue sea." mr. liebeler. i will correct the page proofs to reflect that on your previous testimony. mrs. paine. it occurs twice there, i see. mr. liebeler. yes. did she tell you of any detail of what the argument was about--what the situation was? mrs. paine. well, she said that she felt he should not be using an alias. it wasn't contained in anything that was said, but i got the feeling that she was upset with his doing this or thinking that he should or could do it. mr. liebeler. did she tell you whether or not oswald had told her why he was using the alias? mrs. paine. she did not tell me anything about why. mr. liebeler. did you have any ideas as to why he might be doing it? mrs. paine. well, i did suppose the possibility--it is possible that he was worried about it being found out at the school book depository that he had a russian wife. he did ask me to ask mrs. randle to ask frazier not to ask questions, not to discuss the fact that he had a russian wife with the coworkers at the school book depository. i think he felt that, if this was known, it would also become known that he went to russia and the circumstances of that, and he felt, and this was a sheer guess on my part, and i judge that he felt this would make his job tenure unsure. mr. liebeler. in other words, you do say, however, that oswald did ask you to ask mrs. randle to ask wesley frazier not to talk about oswald's russian wife at the school book depository; is that correct? mrs. paine. that's right; so that my impression is supported to that extent. mr. liebeler. did you ask mrs. randle to ask mr. frazier to do that? mrs. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. do you know whether or not she did? mrs. paine. she said she had already discussed it and she judged that they would not be talking about it. mr. liebeler. you don't know whether mrs. randle ever specifically mentioned it to frazier after you talked to her? mrs. paine. no; i don't know that. mr. liebeler. do you remember when oswald asked you to do that? mrs. paine. it was very shortly after he got the job--it was in the first week, i would say. mr. liebeler. did marina tell you that she was angry with oswald for using this alias? mrs. paine. it was clear that she was angry--on the face of it. mr. liebeler. this was clear to you on monday after the conversation she had with oswald? mrs. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. oswald, of course, did not call marina at any time during the rest of that week. did you and marina discuss the reasons for this? mrs. paine. we didn't discuss reasons. she did say on wednesday, is my recollection, that she said, "he thinks he's punishing me," after i told her the fact that he was not calling as he usually did, and her comment was, "he thinks he's punishing me." mr. liebeler. did you think that marina continued to remain angry with oswald throughout that week for his use of the alias? mrs. paine. i don't think she continued to remain angry--no. we did briefly discuss why he came on thursday, with one another, after his arrival. mr. liebeler. before we get to that, what was your impression of the relations, if marina didn't tell you, between marina and oswald prior to the evening of thursday, november ? mrs. paine. they had a good many arguments and occasional heated words, and i felt this was--well, that marina is not one to maintain a feeling of anger--i don't know about that. mr. liebeler. what makes you say that marina is not one to maintain a feeling of anger? what is the basis for that judgment on your part? mrs. paine. well, i have very little basis. perhaps--she did write me during the summer, and you have that correspondence, saying that things were better when she didn't argue, and that may be the outward circumstances that i'm talking about. she certainly was cordial to lee when he arrived on thursday, and relations were normal between them, i would say. mr. liebeler. that's really what i want to come to and i want to ask you about, and you did say that on page of volume in your previous testimony. mr. jenner asked you as regards the evening of november , "was there a coolness between them?" mrs. paine. he went to bed very early. she stayed up and talked with me some, but there was no coolness that i noticed. he was quite friendly on the lawn as we---- then, mr. jenner said, "i mean coolness between himself and--between lee and marina." mrs. paine. i didn't notice any such coolness. rather, they seemed warm, like a couple making up a small spat. i should interject one thing here, too, that i recall as i entered the house and lee had just come in. i said to him, "our president is coming to town." you indicated specifically here that he was quite friendly on the lawn and that you noticed no coolness between them. now, what was marina's response to all this, the best you can recall? mrs. paine. you recall that he was there when i arrived from the grocery store. they had already met. her response was really to me, as he had gone on into the house. she mentioned to me her embarrassment that he hadn't called and asked if he could come. mr. liebeler. what about marina's response to lee, did i understand from reading your previous testimony that both you and marina were of the opinion that oswald had come home that night to make up the argument that marina and lee had had on the telephone on monday; isn't that correct? mrs. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. and oswald acted in a manner that led you to believe that he had come home specifically to make up the argument? mrs. paine. that it was at least conciliatory. mr. liebeler. what did oswald do that led you to believe that he wanted to make up the argument? did he do anything different out of the ordinary? mrs. paine. no; i would say just the contrary, that he proceeded as he might normally have done on a friday night coming home or coming to the house for the weekend. i don't think--i would be certain that he made no apology, just from my judgment of the man. mr. liebeler. at least, you didn't hear him make any apology? mrs. paine. i certainly didn't. mr. liebeler. did you hear him ask marina to move into dallas with him? mrs. paine. no. mr. liebeler. do you think that he might have asked her to do that? mrs. paine. she told me, and it should be there, that he had expressed to her--she told me the night of the d that he had expressed to her his wish that they could get together as soon as possible and have their apartment together. the setting in which she told me this left me with the impression that she was confused and hurt that he could be making a gesture toward the reestablishing of their family life when at the same time he must have been thinking about doing something that would necessarily destroy their family life. there was no indication to her, in what she told me, that he meant for her to do it right away. i have since heard this by rumor. mr. liebeler. now, i'm going to read some more of the testimony to you momentarily, some of marina's testimony, and i want to discuss it with you, but there is one bit of it particularly that i am confused about just from reading it and i get from it the possible inference and you also, i believe, indicate on page of your testimony, that on the evening of the st you and marina discussed plans for christmas? mrs. paine. well, i think it was then--i'm not positive that it was that night. mr. liebeler. was there any conversation between you and marina to the effect that oswald was not to come back to irving any more until christmas time? mrs. paine. oh, absolutely not. mr. liebeler. there was no indication that his pattern of coming on weekends was to change in any manner? mrs. paine. no; we had previously talked in terms of their staying at the house through christmas and then the oswalds getting an apartment again when they had saved up a little money, around the first of the year. mr. liebeler. let me read to you a part of the testimony that marina gave. mrs. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. which, frankly, seems to me somewhat inconsistent with the testimony that you have given about the events of this evening, although perhaps, these things might have happened outside of your presence and you were not aware of them. this appears at page of volume of the hearings. mr. rankin. did your husband give any reason for coming home on thursday? this, of course, was on thursday, november . mrs. oswald. he said that he was lonely because he hadn't come the preceding weekend and he wanted to make his peace with me. mr. rankin. did you say anything to him then? mrs. oswald. he tried to talk to me, but i would not answer him and he was very upset. mr. rankin. were you upset with him? mrs. oswald. i was angry, of course. he was not angry, he was upset. i was angry. he tried very hard to please me. he spent quite a bit of time putting away diapers and playing with the children on the street. mr. rankin. how did you indicate to him that you were angry with him? mrs. oswald. by not talking to him. mr. rankin. and how did he show that he was upset? mrs. oswald. he was upset over the fact that i would not answer him. he tried to start a conversation with me several times, but i would not answer and he said that he didn't want me to be angry at him because this upsets him. on that day he suggested that we rent an apartment in dallas. he said that he was tired of living alone and perhaps the reason for my being so angry was the fact that we were not living together, that if i want to, he would rent an apartment in dallas tomorrow, that he didn't want me to remain with ruth any longer, but wanted me to live with him in dallas. he repeated this not once, but several times, but i refused. and he said that once again i was preferring my friends to him and i didn't need him. mr. rankin. what did you say to that? mrs. oswald. i said it would be better if i remained with ruth until the holidays, he would come and that we would all meet together and this was better, because while he was living alone and i stayed with ruth, we were spending less money and i told him to buy me a washing machine, because with two children it became too difficult to wash by hand. mr. rankin. what did he say to that? mrs. oswald. he said he would buy me a washing machine. mr. rankin. what did you say to that? mrs. oswald. thank you, that it would be better if he bought something for himself, that i would manage. mrs. paine. i want to point out that she referred to his playing with the children on the street, meaning outdoors--the phrase is the same in russian, that is to say, the translation--it can mean either outdoors or on the street. when i arrived, he had been there for at least, i will say, minutes. i arrived around : and a good deal of this might have happened prior to then. mr. liebeler. prior to the time you came home? mrs. paine. prior to the time i arrived--yes. mr. liebeler. now, the next two sentences here i will read to you--two or three sentences more. mr. rankin. did this seem to make him more upset when you suggested that he wait about getting an apartment for you to live in? mrs. oswald. yes. he then stopped talking and sat down and watched television and then went to bed. i went to bed later. it was about o'clock when he went to sleep. i went to sleep at about : , but it seemed to me that he was not really asleep, but i didn't talk to him. i suggest that that testimony would indicate that there probably was a considerable degree of coolness between the oswalds that evening; would it suggest that to you? mrs. paine. it would suggest that to me. mr. liebeler. at least that their relations would not be normal. mrs. paine. well, i might describe what i think normal is. i said i thought their relations were fairly normal. mr. liebeler. well, was there usually a good deal of coolness between them? mrs. paine. they would often have small arguments--he wanted potatoes, or where was the ketchup level of arguments, which i felt just reflected a tension between them that showed in this way. now, very little was said--i don't remember well, but it was not uncommon for him to eat his meal and then leave the table before other people did. i don't remember specifically, but it's possible he did that night and go in to watch the television. in other words, his efforts at being sociable or friendly even was never very great. mr. liebeler. well, specifically, the part of your testimony, of course, that i have difficulty in reconciling with the testimony i have just read is when mr. jenner asked you if you detected any coolness between marina and him and you responded, "i didn't notice any such coolness. rather, they seemed warm like a couple making up a small spat." how clear and how definite is your recollection of the events of that evening? i can't possibly reconcile in my mind the testimony that marina gave with the notion that they looked like a couple that were making up from a small spat, and as far as that goes you can't either. mrs. paine. no; i can't--that may be just my interpretation. mr. liebeler. after hearing marina's testimony and reflecting on what happened that night, do you think that this testimony is consistent with what you remember having happened there that night? mrs. paine. well, i saw nothing of the argument she describes. mr. liebeler. yes; i appreciate that. mrs. paine. i saw no continuing of it in the sense that they threw barbs at each other later. i don't recall any such altercation, and as i say, i just don't remember well enough whether it was that night as he had on other nights--he ate and left the table without much conversation--or just what happened. it was really my assumption, i would say, that he was there to make up the quarrel over the telephone. mr. liebeler. and you specifically discussed that with marina that evening? mrs. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. and you both agreed that that was the reason he came there? mrs. paine. yes. no; i don't mean that i specifically recall real warmth being shown, but that his behavior was much as it often was and i judged that he was there to make up for the fight in some way. mr. liebeler. and you also thought from observing marina that she was glad to have him make up the spat or that they had made the spat up? mrs. paine. i didn't see anything opposite to that, at least, so i was left with my assumption unchallenged. mr. liebeler. so, as far as you know, the events that are described by marina's testimony that i have just read--could perfectly well have happened. mrs. paine. it could perfectly well have happened--indeed--yes. mr. liebeler. after the assassination, did you think about your previous judgment that oswald had come out there that evening to make up the argument that he had with marina? mrs. paine. that's what i thought he must have come for. mr. liebeler. after hearing this testimony, as it occurred between marina and lee that evening, do you think that could have had anything to do with his attitudes and feelings the next day? mrs. paine. what you read of her testimony is news to me. i had no idea what the tone was of any words that passed between them, and as i say, all i heard that was in any way familiar to me, was that he had asked her to take an apartment--nothing about it being right away. i would say it could certainly have affected his thinking about it the next day. it is conceivable even that he hadn't seriously thought about shooting the president, but that would be sheer conjecture on my part. mr. liebeler. did you have a washing machine in your house? mrs. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. did marina use it? mrs. paine. yes. if i may say--that i am disturbed by what she said. i was concerned all along in this arrangement that lee not resent my being--my offering a place for marina, and what she said would do a good deal to raise resentment in him, i would think. mr. liebeler. marina, of course, was aware of the fact that you did not want to conduct yourself in such a manner as to breed resentment on oswald's part with respect to his relations with marina? mrs. paine. we never discussed it explicitly. i probably would have if my russian had been better. she at one point said to him on a weekend when he came out that my russian was improving while his was getting worse, and i was embarrassed to have her say this. i may have testified to this, and just pointed out that i was getting more practice than he at that time was, but my feeling was that this was a mistake on her part in terms of his feelings to say that. mr. liebeler. did she say that in front of him? mrs. paine. yes; that's why i spoke up immediately and said, "well, you know a lot more vocabulary than i did." mr. liebeler. other witnesses have testified that marina was not always entirely considerate of oswald's feelings in the presence of others. would you think that would be a fair statement? mrs. paine. well, i seldom saw them in the presence of others. mr. liebeler. in the presence of others--i mean yourself. mrs. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. in the incident you have just related, of course, is an example. mrs. paine. i would say that it is an example and i am trying to think of others that i can make a generalization. i can't make a real generalization like that, and the reason i said, "in front of others," is because i do recall also, and i testified to this, that when they first went down to new orleans he got an apartment for her and i felt he was very anxious that she like it, and her responses to him were just simply not as enthusiastic as it was clear he had hoped. this was not embarrassing in front of someone else in a sense it wasn't that noticeable a thing, but i did feel that she wasn't trying very hard to understand his hope to please her. mr. liebeler. would it be a fair statement in your opinion that in point of fact both of these people were more interested in tearing each other down than they were in complementing each other or in trying to accommodate themselves to each other or to work out some sort of sincere relationship between themselves? mrs. paine. i don't think you can be that curt about it. marina never did speak to me about wanting to leave him. she spoke, and this appears in her letters too, of wishing to get along and spoke and wrote that she was encouraged that relations seemed better. it seemed to me that she accepted this as a situation a good deal short of ideal but nonetheless the one she was in and one she was to work with. mr. liebeler. my characterization assumed a continuance of the relationship. a simple solution perhaps to many situations like this, of course, is for people to leave each other. but while they were together--i'm not trying to get you to say that this is so--i have never seen them together, of course. mrs. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. but i have seen other people in whose behavior i might find some similarities to the oswalds or what i think the oswalds' situation might have been on the basis of the testimony we have had. but also, you said before there was a general coolness between them--oswald would argue about the ketchup. you indicated something about the ketchup. mrs. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. little things like this: marina made a statement in front of you that your russian was getting better and oswald's was getting worse, and of course, the testimony that marina gave herself about what happened between them--i am wondering if you know marina oswald or oswald well enough to make a judgment about this sort of thing. mrs. paine. well, i think i don't, and it's my guess that there was a lot more argument and contention between them than what i saw, just judging from what i have heard other people have said about it. i did see them trade barbs or comments and in that sense the answer was "yes" to your question of did they seem willing or out to hurt one another. i can't remember just how you phrased it. they were certainly not proceeding toward a mature relationship though---- mr. liebeler. did marina ever say anything to you about sexual relations between herself and oswald? mrs. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. have you testified about that previously? mrs. paine. no. mr. liebeler. would you care to tell us? mrs. paine. i will say this, that it is part of what convinced me that she was interested in helping the relationship. we talked about going to planned parenthood to get contraceptive information there weeks after the birth of rachel, that is, we were to go then for that. it must have been myself that suggested that she discuss with one of the counselors there her feelings about their sexual relationship. mr. liebeler. did she tell you her feelings about the sexual relationship? mrs. paine. well, i think i'll answer that simply--i don't think--let me say that i feel that the exposure of her private life has been considerable and should be limited to what is pertinent, and i think what is pertinent is whether she thought she would stay with him or not, and whether she planned to try to. mr. liebeler. other witnesses have testified to us that marina said in front of oswald and in front of them that oswald was not a satisfactory man in terms of sexual relations with her and that she did not obtain satisfaction with him and that he was, as far as she was concerned, much less than a man in his sexual relations with her, and i wonder if she told you some of those things. mrs. paine. surely nothing was said in his presence and i am shocked to hear that she discussed it in his presence with other people, which sounds like an attempt simply to injure him rather than an attempt to help the situation that needed help. now, no doubt my own attitudes affect how a person talks to me. she may have sensed that i was interested in a reconciliation, and their feelings, and would have known that i would not have accepted this, or perhaps not wanted to put it that way with respect to the denouncement of him, but it certainly was not put that way. mr. liebeler. did she suggest to you that she was not satisfied with her sexual relations with oswald? mrs. paine. yes; she did. mr. liebeler. did she ever tell you anything about the separation that occurred between herself and oswald in the fall of in november? mrs. paine. she mentioned that she had once left him. mr. liebeler. did she tell you any of the details of it? mrs. paine. probably very few of the details--i didn't know to whom she went. she described him as being ashen and shocked when she actually did walk out and then as pleading with her to come back, after a week, which she did, and that he said everything would be different and that she commented that it wasn't different and that was virtually all that was said about it. mr. liebeler. did she ever mention george de mohrenschildt to you? mrs. paine. well, that's how i met her. mr. liebeler. you know de mohrenschildt yourself? mrs. paine. i have met him once at a gathering where i first met the oswalds, so i knew that they knew them--they were the mutual friend between the hosts of the evening party. mr. liebeler. mr. glover? mrs. paine. and the oswalds, but that's the only time i have seen the de mohrenschildts. mr. liebeler. did she ever say anything to you about de mohrenschildt? mrs. paine. you mean that that might have been to whom she went? mr. liebeler. i just want to know if she ever discussed de mohrenschildt with you? mrs. paine. i recall her discussing a child. now, this is what i am not sure about, again my understanding of her russian may have interfered. she talked, i think, mrs. de mohrenschildt has a child or it may be his, and that this person is married and has a child, but i never got that straight as to who was married. mr. liebeler. she never discussed her own feelings about de mohrenschildt? mrs. paine. no. mr. liebeler. did she ever indicate that de mohrenschildt was in any way involved or related to the separation that occurred between herself and her husband? mrs. paine. no. mr. liebeler. i don't think i have any more questions. however, i would like to ask you one more. you have previously been questioned about and have heard about a supposed telephone call that was supposed to have been made from michael paine's office to your home shortly after the assassination, and i do not represent that i have knowledge of such call--that such call was ever made, but as you know, there were rumors to the effect that this man and woman together in this conversation--that one of them said that he wasn't really responsible for the assassination and they both knew who was and i think both you and michael have testified about this before and have denied that there was any such telephone conversation between you and anyone. was there a telephone conversation of any kind between you and michael between your residence and michael's office on november or november , ? mrs. paine. i have testified to the fact that michael called--i don't know whether it was from the cafeteria where he had been eating or more likely from his office, to my home, on the d. he had learned of the assassination at lunchtime and called to tell me to find out if i knew it, and this was the entire substance of the conversation. i told him i did know--from watching tv. mr. liebeler. was that the only telephone conversation between those two numbers on those days that you know of? mrs. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. have you ever thought or had reason to believe that marina oswald was responsible in any way for oswald's assassinating the president? mrs. paine. no. mr. liebeler. and you never meant to suggest anything or never said anything that would suggest that to michael or anybody else? mrs. paine. no--never--that has absolutely not occurred to me. mr. liebeler. of course; my question doesn't mean to imply that she is so responsible. had you and michael ever discussed oswald's alleged attack on general walker? mrs. paine. you mean since the assassination of president kennedy--have we discussed it? mr. liebeler. yes--at any time. mrs. paine. i suppose we have--i'm sure we have talked of it. mr. liebeler. did michael ever indicate to you in any way that he had knowledge of oswald's attack on general walker prior to november , ? mrs. paine. i would be absolutely certain he had not--his indications were such that he had no such information. mr. liebeler. by that answer you mean to say, one, that he did not indicate to you before the assassination that he did have knowledge, and, two, after the assassination when it became known that oswald had been involved in the general walker shooting, michael didn't indicate then that he had had any prior knowledge of it? mrs. paine. that's correct. of course, it wasn't until several days--more than a week after the assassination that something was printed about oswald there having been involved in an attempt on walker. mr. liebeler. but as far as you know, michael knew nothing about that until he found out about it in the newspaper? mrs. paine. that's right. mr. liebeler. when the dallas police and other authorities came out to your house, they eventually took all of oswald's personal effects, did they not? mrs. paine. no; they did not. mr. liebeler. did you have anything left in your house that belonged to oswald? mrs. paine. no; they were eventually taken by robert oswald in company with john thorne and jim martin. that was probably the first weekend in december, or at least weeks after the assassination--more likely . mr. liebeler. do you recall what was among these things that robert oswald and mr. martin took? mrs. paine. they took the clothes from the closet, boxes and things that i did not look into. i have heard from the police that it also included an old camera which they had to chase later and went up to robert oswald's to find it. mr. liebeler. were there any newspapers or magazines or anything like that, copies of the militant or the worker? mrs. paine. i did not see--most of what was done was what was put in. i busied myself in the bedroom getting out what was to go--what was the oswald's property. mr. liebeler. oswald did, of course, receive copies of the worker and the militant at your address? mrs. paine. i had seen that he received the worker. i had never opened the militant. i noticed on november when i looked at the pile of second class mail and third class mail that was waiting for him to come that weekend that it included a copy of the militant--that was the first i had noticed. this is after it had been in the newspaper. mr. liebeler. you don't remember which issue of the militant that was, do you? mrs. paine. it must have been the current one. mr. liebeler. what happened to that? mrs. paine. i threw it away, along with the worker and a russian paper, i guess. it was unopened and still in its jacket. mr. liebeler. do you remember when it had come? mrs. paine. during the week--well, no; it could have been during the weeks since he hadn't been there over the weekend. mr. liebeler. of course, he did come up on thursday night? mrs. paine. well, it wasn't discussed and it wasn't pointed out then. mr. liebeler. well, how did he usually handle this problem with the mail--he was accustomed to receiving these pieces--the issues of the newspaper, at your address, wasn't he? mrs. paine. i handed it to him or laid them on the couch for him to look at when he arrived on friday night. mr. liebeler. but he hadn't looked at these newspapers that had come during the period from his last visit to thursday? mrs. paine. that's right; he had not been there. mr. liebeler. he didn't look at those on thursday? mrs. paine. no. mr. liebeler. how many newspapers did you throw away, do you remember what they were? mrs. paine. well, i recall particularly the militant and the worker and it seems to me there was the russian minsk paper too, but i'm not certain. mr. liebeler. was there just one copy of the militant? mrs. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. and you don't remember when it had come? mrs. paine. no. mr. liebeler. how many copies of the worker? mrs. paine. one. mr. liebeler. i believe that's all. thank you for coming in. mrs. paine. all right. testimony of michael ralph paine the testimony of michael ralph paine was taken at : p.m., on july , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. liebeler. would you raise your right hand and take the oath, please? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. paine. yes; i do. mr. liebeler. would you state your name for the record? mr. paine. michael ralph paine. mr. liebeler. you are familiar with the commission's procedure and you have testified before the commission as i have heretofore indicated, isn't that correct? mr. paine. i have testified before--yes. mr. liebeler. you testified previously that when you first met lee oswald in april , that you discussed to some extent gen. edwin a. walker? mr. paine. yes; i think we did discuss him in passing. mr. liebeler. did oswald ever indicate to you in any way that he had been involved in the attempt on general walker's life? mr. paine. not that i remember at all--nothing whatsoever. i think the only thing he did--the only thing that i can remember now, was that he seemed to have a smile in regard to that person. it was inscrutable--i didn't know what he was smiling about--i just thought perhaps it was--the guy assumed it was rapport for a person who was an extreme proponent of a certain kind of patriotism or something. mr. liebeler. general walker was? mr. paine. general walker was--yes. mr. liebeler. now, when you first met oswald, as i recall, on april , i believe it was, of ? mr. paine. you have been keeping up with this--i haven't been thinking about oswald for a year. mr. liebeler. you don't have any recollection as to the date at this point? mr. paine. no. mr. liebeler. in any event, you did meet oswald sometime in april, for the first time; do you recall whether it was before or after that walker had been attacked? mr. paine. i don't recall now; and as i remember--back in the fall--i wasn't aware then whether it was before or after. it isn't just a lapse of memory now. mr. liebeler. do you remember discussing with oswald the fact that someone had shot at general walker? mr. paine. no--i don't. that would have led me to think it was prior to his being shot at. mr. liebeler. you are referring to this specific date. now, my question means to comprehend any time--do you remember discussing at any time with oswald the fact that general walker had been attacked? mr. paine. no; i did not. i didn't see him--i saw him that one evening, you see, and then i didn't see him for a space of some time. mr. liebeler. you didn't see him after that one time in april until after he had returned from new orleans? mr. paine. i guess that's right. mr. liebeler. so, that would have been in october ? mr. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. on june , , marina oswald testified before the commission at which time the following colloquy occurred, as indicated on page of the commission's transcript: mr. mckenzie. mrs. oswald, you say, or you said a few minutes ago, that mr. paine knew or knows more about your husband's attitude about the united states than you do. why did you say that? mrs. oswald. because my husband's favorite topic of discussion was politics and whoever he was with, he talked to them politics and mr. paine was with him a fair amount and i am not sure they talked about politics. apparently it should have been "i am quite sure they talked about politics." but, at any rate, the transcript does read, "i am not sure they talked about politics." they went to meetings of some kind together. i don't know what kind of meetings. mr. mckenzie. do you know where the meetings were? mrs. oswald. in dallas. after they came back from some meeting, my husband said to me something about walker being at this meeting. do you remember going at any meeting with lee oswald at which mr. walker was present? mr. paine. no--the only meeting i went to was the aclu meeting, that i recall. mr. liebeler. do you recall going to any meeting yourself in october , with or without oswald, at which general walker was present? mr. paine. general walker was present at the--oswald mentioned the u.n.-u.s. day meeting held by the rightists, which occurred a day or two or two nights before the aclu meeting. he had been to that by himself. i had gone that same evening to a john birch meeting. we were not together, but they were two things that occurred simultaneously, and that's where lee, by his report at the aclu meeting said he was and walker was there. maybe that's what marina had in mind. mr. liebeler. but you, yourself, don't have any recollection of your ever being at a meeting when he was there? mr. paine. no; i have never seen general walker that i can recall. mr. liebeler. you have never seen walker? mr. paine. unless he was--in a year previous to that i had been to the indignation committee meeting--no--that is the answer to your previous question. mr. liebeler. do--to the best of your recollection, you don't ever remember seeing general walker present? mr. paine. that's right. mr. liebeler. or having been at a meeting at which you subsequently learned that he was present, although you didn't see him? mr. paine. that's right--i can't remember about the previous year, but i don't think that has relevancy. mr. liebeler. well, since the time you met oswald--you were at no meetings at which general walker was present, to your knowledge? mr. paine. that's true. mr. liebeler. marina oswald goes on to testify and i will recapitulate part of it, "after they came back from some meeting, my husband said to me something about walker being at this meeting and he said, 'paine knows that i shot him.'" do you have any reason to believe that--the first question, of course, is and i have already asked you that and you testified you did not know oswald shot walker prior to the assassination of president kennedy; is that correct? mr. paine. that's right. mr. liebeler. now, do you have any reason to believe that oswald might have thought that you knew that he, oswald, had shot at general walker? mr. paine. i can't see how he would have thought i knew that. i just don't see--he might have said something that revealed that and i didn't catch his meaning, so it never sunk in to me at all, that is, to assume that he wasn't lying and that is the only way i can explain it. mr. liebeler. so that you think that this testimony that marina has given is either the result of a misapprehension, or a lie on oswald's part or on marina's part? mr. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. and you don't have any doubt about that whatsoever? mr. paine. i am perfectly certain that i didn't know he shot at walker. mr. liebeler. marina herself goes on to say: i don't know whether this was the truth or not, i don't know whether it was true or not, but this is what they told me. and i presume she means that's what lee had told her. mr. paine. now, wait--this is--it would be well to check for that "they"--this is testimony in june, you said, and that "they" could possibly be martin and thorne. i don't know much about martin and thorne either, but i had the impression that they were telling her stories. mr. liebeler. well, of course, this is what the translator said marina had said. marina is going to be here tomorrow and i will ask her about this then and see if she can clarify the record, but the point we want to bring out now at this time is that your testimony is quite clear that you did not know before the assassination that oswald had shot at general walker? mr. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. you testified before that oswald had shown you one of those newspapers of his one day and said you could tell what they wanted you to do by doing some reading between the lines; is that correct? mr. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. and my recollection is that he was specifically referring to a copy of the worker that he showed you at that time? mr. paine. it was. mr. liebeler. did you ever see oswald reading the militant? mr. paine. i do not now remember which are the things that i have come to realize later and which i knew at the time. i was not particularly aware of the militant, as i recall. i really have to remember what my feelings were back in the fall when i was questioned on the matter and that, as i recall, the name and quality or the name and nature of the militant wasn't really very familiar to me. mr. liebeler. did you ever have any discussion with oswald about the u.s. policies toward cuba? mr. paine. well, i don't think we did discuss that except in the very brief talk in the car when he was reciting someone else's approval--apparent approval of castro and citing that he was a communist. mr. liebeler. i remember you testified about that before--that it was on the way back home after an aclu meeting. mr. paine. that's right. mr. liebeler. and you told him, or thought if that was what he had to go on to identify anyone as a communist, that he apparently was reaching quite far? mr. paine. i thought so, yes. mr. liebeler. do you recall that in the fall of there was a climate of what might be called, and what was in fact called, detente between the united states and the soviet union that apparently led people in some quarters to believe that the soviet union would withdraw its support from the castro regime or at least modify its attitude? mr. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. did you ever have any discussion with oswald about that? mr. paine. no, we did not. mr. liebeler. did oswald ever indicate in any way that he was aware of such a thing? mr. paine. we very seldom spoke about it. most of our discussions were to the more specific elements, since there was such a wide area of disagreement it didn't seem best to talk about smaller points, so we didn't talk about soviet-american relations as i recall it in that regard. mr. liebeler. i show you a photograph which depicts the same individual as is depicted in commission exhibit no. and ask you to examine it and tell me if you recognize the individual? mr. paine. i remember the same face on a picture that i saw earlier, but i had not at that time, and do not now, recognize the person, but he could work at bell. mr. liebeler. in our discussions in washington, we had some conversations about what you thought oswald's possible motive might have been for the assassination--i don't think you have really ever set them forth for us on the record, and if you care to give us your views on that, i would appreciate having them. mr. paine. i was more eager to speak about it then--i was thinking about it then. since that time i haven't thought about it at all. mr. liebeler. can you reconstruct the thoughts that you had at the time you were in washington? mr. paine. i think my thoughts then were brief and they certainly are now. i thought it was a very spur of the moment idea that came into his head when he realized that he would have the opportunity with sort of a duck blind there, an opportunity to change the course of history, even though he couldn't predict from that action what course history would take, that in my opinion would not have deterred him from doing it. i thought that he was of the mind that something small or evolutionary changes were never going to be of any effect. it had to be, though he never revealed to me what kind of actions or policies he would have advocated or did advocate or did want to see--i had frequently had the impression that it was--it had to be of a rather drastic nature, where kindness or good feelings should not stand in the way of those actions. mr. liebeler. did he ever discuss with you his notion of how society ought to be structured? mr. paine. yes--he did discuss them but not in a way---did he ever describe anything that could be real. it was more a way that society should not be structured, that he talked about. now, i shouldn't really say that--it was a negative description of how society should not be, and i never did get a description of what he would like or what one of a more positive nature would be like. mr. liebeler. you had the feeling that whatever it was, if in fact he had a notion about it, would have required a drastic and sudden change? mr. paine. well, i don't know about the suddenness but he assumed that the society was all tied together, the church and the power structure and our education was all the same vile system and therefore there would have to be an overthrow of the whole thing. just how he was going to overthrow it or what he was going to overthrow toward--it was not clear to me, especially, because it was also apparent that he didn't particularly admire russia, so i didn't--i never did get it clear in my mind what program he was going to inaugurate with his new world. mr. liebeler. did he ever tell you he had written about this subject? mr. paine. no; he didn't. mr. liebeler. and you never read any of the things he wrote? mr. paine. no; i didn't. mr. liebeler. did you know he had written about anything? mr. paine. no; if i had thought he had written about something, i would certainly have been eager to have read it. mr. liebeler. did you ever have any opinion that this man was psychologically disturbed, suffering from personality disturbances and neurosis or psychosis--you pick it. mr. paine. no; truthfully, i should say that did not appear to be a good description. it seemed simpler and more to the point to say he was extremely bitter and couldn't believe there was much good will in people. there was mostly evil, conniving, or else stupidity--was the description--that was his opinion or would be his description of most people. that's my description, and the best description i can give of him--to call him other psychological names--names of paranoia or paranoid or something like that. mr. liebeler. what made you pick that particular name? mr. paine. well, that kind of suspicion of people--expecting them to be consciously perpetrating evil or ill toward him or toward the oppressed people--workers--is perhaps a trait of paranoia. mr. liebeler. do you think that he exhibited this trait? mr. paine. yes; he did, but it didn't seem to be uncontrollable. he didn't generally take it--i would say he was paranoid if he always took it personally, but he always seemed to transfer it to, or put himself in the class of people who were oppressed, so that's the distinction why i wouldn't call him sick or wouldn't have then called him sick--before the assassination. mr. liebeler. because he seemed to describe this feeling of his in institutional terms? mr. paine. that's right. mr. liebeler. and in terms of the social structure and the impact the world had on classes and groups of people? mr. paine. he was in the exploited class. mr. liebeler. yes; there was no doubt about that--i mean, as far as his own mind was concerned--that's what he thought? mr. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. so, that he would describe these terrible misfortunes that were being perpetrated on a class of people, but he would make it clear that he did regard himself as being included in that class of people. mr. paine. that's correct. now, i think he was a little--i can't remember now where i got the impression that he was allergic to the fbi, which is another case of him mentioning being sensitive to a person--a sense of persecution, but the only thing that i do remember that he did mention that surprised me a little bit was his sense of personal exploitation by his employer at the photoengraving company. mr. liebeler. and when you say you cannot remember where you got the idea that he was allergic to the fbi, you mean you don't remember whether you were aware of that before the assassination? mr. paine. that's correct. mr. liebeler. were you aware of it before the assassination or can't you remember? mr. paine. i think i learned that from ruth's statement of things that he had said and i don't remember whether that was before or after. mr. liebeler. for instance, if you were told that he in fact did have quite an allergy to the fbi, whether you were aware of it or not at that time, i suppose that that would provide an example of one or two things--either an accurate description of what was going on or a slightly exaggerated or greatly exaggerated notion of what was going on and to that extent a manifestation of this feeling of persecution, as he put it. mr. paine. yes; it was greatly exaggerated--it had, of course, some grounds, so you wouldn't be too inclined to call it paranoia and the fact that he also perhaps wanted to continue doing the things that would have to have the legitimate fear of the surveillance by the fbi because he would want to be attempting to do something that wasn't legal or proper. in other words, that would agitate him with grounds--for other reasons than paranoia. mr. liebeler. one of the witnesses who knew him in the marine corps testified that he thought that oswald had a persecution complex which he strove to maintain--had you ever thought of it in that way? mr. paine. well, he was certainly--i wanted to give him some sense of letting him participate in some sense of being effective to change the world and to let him be a little more generous in his thinking toward his enemies--his employers by suggesting that they weren't so fully in control of the social situation as he made out, and he certainly resisted all efforts on my part to think in a more generous and active way toward people toward whom he felt bitter. in other words, he had no inclination or tendency to try to get out of that mood--i don't remember now any illogical way he would have maintained that attitude. i suppose, though, he just had to fight so hard, or fighting is about the only way he would or could get it out. he perhaps never had any experience of relieving the feeling of hate or bitterness through being kind to someone, so you just wouldn't imagine he would think that that was just pious or just talking to suggest that that was a way out of that feeling. mr. liebeler. did you ever have the feeling that he had a considerable degree of hostility toward the society in general, toward our particular society? mr. paine. yes; he had unreasonable and unrealistic and pervasive feelings. mr. liebeler. in that it affected his attitude toward almost everything? mr. paine. yes. mr. liebeler. did he ever discuss with you his personal relations with his wife? mr. paine. no; he did not--he never spoke of girls at all. i thought he was very proper. mr. liebeler. what was that? mr. paine. well, this is the way i supposed he was. i knew that he didn't smoke or drink and it seemed inconsistent with a libertine attitude toward women or even a sensual enjoyment of women would be a form of life that would be contradictory to his ethics. mr. liebeler. you had no idea that he had been engaged in the fair play for cuba activities while he was in new orleans? mr. paine. no; i did not. mr. liebeler. did you ever talk to ruth about oswald's employment situation in new orleans? mr. paine. not that i can recall--no. i think i asked her what kind of a job he had found, and that was the extent of it. mr. liebeler. what did she tell you he had found? mr. paine. she said he had found the same kind of work he left here--the engraving business--or something like that. mr. liebeler. do you remember ruth ever mentioning that oswald had said that he had gotten fired from his job in new orleans because of his activities in the fair play for cuba committee? mr. paine. no; i don't remember her mentioning that. mr. liebeler. i don't think i have any more questions. thank you very much for coming. mr. paine. all right. testimony of maj. gen. edwin a. walker and gen. clyde j. watts the testimony of maj. gen. edwin a. walker was taken at : p.m., on july , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. liebeler. let the record indicate that general walker is being represented by clyde j. watts of oklahoma city. would you rise, general, and raise your right hand? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? general walker. i do. mr. liebeler. please sit down. my name is wesley j. liebeler. i am an attorney on the president's commission investigating the assassination of president john f. kennedy. i have been authorized to take your testimony by the commission pursuant to authority granted to the commission by president johnson's executive order no. , dated november , , and the joint resolution of congress no. . pursuant to the commission's rules of procedure, you are entitled to be represented by counsel. as the record now indicates, you are represented by counsel, general watts. i understand that you are appearing voluntarily before the commission in response to its request to give testimony touching upon certain matters relating to lee harvey oswald and to the assassination of president kennedy. is that correct? general walker. that is correct. mr. liebeler. i would like to have the record show that prior to the commencement of this deposition, a discussion between general watts and general walker and myself was had in which we reached an agreement under which a copy of the transcript of the testimony which will be taken here today will be made available here at the office of the u.s. attorney for examination by general walker and by his counsel. they will be given an opportunity to make whatever changes in the testimony may be necessary, so that the transcript reflects accurately what happened here today. we also agreed and confirmed in a telephone conversation with mr. rankin, the general counsel for the commission, that as soon as a copy can reasonably be made available, within or days after this transcript has been signed by general walker and approved by me, a copy of the transcript will be made available to general walker at his expense. it may be purchased from the court reporter here in dallas. we will make whatever arrangements may seem proper at that time to give the general a corrected copy. would you state your full name for the record, please? general walker. edwin a. walker. a stands for anderson. mr. liebeler. what is your address? general walker. turtle creek boulevard, dallas, tex. mr. liebeler. how long have you lived there? general walker. i believe since december of or january of . i am not sure of the month i moved in. mr. liebeler. i don't think we have to indicate a great deal of your background for the record, since i think we all know who you are, but you are a retired major general, are you not? general walker. no. i am former major general, now resigned from the u.s. army. mr. liebeler. you resigned from the army. where were you originally born and raised, general? general walker. at center point, tex. i was born in , november . center point is kerr county. it is c-e-n-t-e-r p-o-i-n-t, kerr county, tex. that is miles west of san antonio. mr. liebeler. since your resignation from the army and your taking up residence in dallas, you have been active, have you not, in various political endeavors here in dallas and throughout the united states? general walker. patriotic and political endeavors. mr. liebeler. it is my understanding that on the evening of april , , some person fired a shot at you while you were in your home on turtle creek boulevard; is that correct? general walker. that is correct. mr. liebeler. would you tell us the circumstances surrounding that event, as you can now recall them? general walker. i was sitting behind my desk. it was right at o'clock, and most of the lights were on in the house and the shades were up. i was sitting down behind a desk facing out from a corner, with my head over a pencil and paper working on my income tax when i heard a blast and a crack right over my head. mr. liebeler. what did you do then? general walker. i thought--we had been fooling with the screens on the house and i thought that possibly somebody had thrown a firecracker, that it exploded right over my head through the window right behind me. since there is a church back there, often there are children playing back there. then i looked around and saw that the screen was not out, but was in the window, and this couldn't possibly happen, so i got up and walked around the desk and looked back where i was sitting and i saw a hole in the wall which would have been to my left while i was sitting to my right as i looked back, and the desk was catercornered in the corner up against this wall. i noticed there was a hole in the wall, so i went upstairs and got a pistol and came back down and went out the back door, taking a look to see what might have happened. mr. liebeler. did you find anything outside that you could relate to this attack on you? general walker. no, sir; i couldn't. as i crossed a window coming downstairs in front, i saw a car at the bottom of the church alley just making a turn onto turtle creek. the car was unidentifiable. i could see the two back lights, and you have to look through trees there, and i could see it moving out. this car would have been about at the right time for anybody that was making a getaway. mr. liebeler. now as i understand it, there is an alley that runs directly at the rear of your house; is that correct? general walker. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. does that alley run directly into turtle creek boulevard, or does it join with another alley? general walker. no, sir; it joins with another alley, and it joins with the street called avondale. mr. liebeler. so that to get---- general walker. at one end is avondale, which runs into turtle creek going downhill east, and at the other end it goes into the parking lot of the church. as you enter that parking lot from my alley, if you turn directly right, you go down the church alley going into turtle creek, and that is where the car was going down that i referred to, and it was just making the turn out of the church alley. mr. liebeler. the alley that runs into turtle creek? general walker. no; directly from the church alley into the turtle creek main boulevard. now, there is another alley right at the entrance of my alley to the church parking lot, which runs straight west practically to oak lawn. hardly anybody knows it is there, because you have to ease down it with an automobile, it is so narrow. and as i know, only garbage trucks use it. i have been up and down it once or twice only. mr. liebeler. now when you got that pistol, did you go out the back door of your house? general walker. i went out the back door. mr. liebeler. you went into the alley? general walker. i went about halfway out to the alley. mr. liebeler. from that point you could observe this car that was just turning? general walker. no, sir. i observed that--it was already gone--i observed that from the window upstairs as i came down with the pistol. i could see out the south window, front and left. mr. liebeler. i would imagine that you assumed that that car had gone from the church parking lot down the alley and was at that point entering turtle creek boulevard? general walker. that is correct. mr. liebeler. did you see which direction it turned? general walker. left, going north. mr. liebeler. were you able to make any kind of identification of the automobile at all? general walker. none at all. mr. liebeler. were you able to see how many people were in it? general walker. no, sir. mr. liebeler. did it seem to be leaving in a hurry, or was it just debarking? general walker. there was no way to tell, because from the upstair's windows you were looking through trees at the car and i probably wouldn't have seen it unless i had seen the two taillights of it. it only has to go a few feet and it is beyond the bank where you can hardly see. mr. liebeler. i show you a photograph which is a copy of a photograph that has been marked commission exhibit no. , and ask you if you can identify that picture, or tell us what is portrayed in it. general walker. well, it looks like an old wornout picture of the wall beside my desk and the shothole as it appeared. it is not really a picture. they used, evidently had plastered this silver foil-type peculiar stuff on the wall previously and it is still there. mr. liebeler. but this does show the hole in the wall over your desk that was made by the bullet that struck the wall; is that correct? general walker. as far as i can identify it, that is what it looks like. i could take the picture and probably match it up with those flowers. it is a flower arrangement on this silver foil on the wall. mr. liebeler. that looks like your wallpaper, doesn't it? general walker. yes. mr. liebeler. i show you a copy of a picture that has been marked as commission exhibit no. , and ask you if you can recognize what is shown in that picture. general watts. can we go off the record a minute? mr. liebeler. certainly. (discussion off the record.) general walker. yes; i can identify this picture. mr. liebeler. what is it, generally? general walker. it is an outside picture taken looking into the house, taken from the west. the camera pointed east and took the house, and it shows the shot and the broken glass in the window. mr. liebeler. the window of your home? general walker. the window of my home at turtle creek boulevard. mr. liebeler. that is the window through which the shot was fired at you on april , ? general walker. that is correct. mr. liebeler. is it possible to see your desk? general walker. yes; you can see the chair. let's go off the record a minute. mr. liebeler. let's stay on the record. it is all right. general walker. all right, what i had mixed up, i never knew anybody got a picture of me pointing at anything, and that looks like my hand. i didn't know this photographer was outside at the time. i was thinking the picture was taken from the inside, but i see it perfectly now and it is from the outside. this looks like there is a table here, from this window, and in the corner running that way. mr. liebeler. just inside the window? general walker. just inside the window. then there is a space between that and the desk. then the desk is here at an angle across this corner, and that looks like the chair. no; i am not sure. i did have a chair in between me and the table, which may be that chair. it is possible that you are not seeing the desk chair. there are two windows in this wall, but those are too close to be the windows. that is one of those panels, i suspect, like the flower panel. the window is still further back here. mr. liebeler. so it is not possible to see your desk from that picture? general walker. that picture is taken at this angle, see. mr. liebeler. so you can't really see your desk? general walker. i would say my desk is back in that corner. mr. liebeler. but it would be directly, if you stood at the window and looked straight through the window, you would be able to see your desk across the room? general walker. that is correct. mr. liebeler. was your desk directly across the room from the window, or was it sitting catercornered? general walker. it was sitting catercornered in the corner on the opposite side of the room. i was facing out over the desk toward the center of the room. mr. liebeler. when the shot was fired? general walker. that is correct. mr. liebeler. so that you were almost facing the window at the time the shot was fired; is that correct? looking sideways? general walker. no; i was looking to the center of the room. mr. liebeler. sideways to the window? i am trying to drive at what kind of shot the man had at you. was he shooting at you from the side, from the back, or from the front? i think it would be from the side. general walker. more from the side than the front. definitely from the side but a little at an angle, because i was facing the center of the room. mr. liebeler. right. i show you a copy of a photograph that has been marked commission exhibit no. , and ask you if this is not also a picture of the window through which the shot was fired showing where the shot had apparently hit the sash at one point? general walker. that looks like the window and where the shot was fired through the window into the room. it certainly must be the same shot. mr. liebeler. it purports to be a photograph that was turned over to the commission by the police department and it purports to be a picture of that window. general walker. that is the same shot then. mr. liebeler. the bullet apparently actually hit a portion of the window frame before it went through. does that accord with your recollection? general walker. the bullet went through the screen frame. then it went through a portion of the window frame, and a portion of the glass. mr. liebeler. i show you a copy of a photograph that has been marked commission exhibit no. , and ask you if this is not in fact a picture of the next room. general walker. to closer identify that further, the screen frame has a crosspiece in the center also, and the bullet went through the crosspiece in the screen and then hit both the window frame and the glass. mr. liebeler. commission exhibit no. is a picture of the room next to the one in which you were sitting, and shows some literature that was stored and the place where the bullet came out. general walker. that identifies the next room where the bullet went through the wall by my desk and came out in the next room. the bullet was picked up lying on a piece of the literature there. mr. liebeler. i have here a photograph which i am marking as walker exhibit no. , and which i will initial for the purpose of identification, and ask you to do the same so that we have no confusion as to the identification of that picture. (general walker initials.) mr. liebeler. now are you able to tell from looking at that picture what it shows? general walker. yes; i can identify this picture. it is the backyard of my house at turtle creek. it is a view from a position taken near the west fence line, taken of the rear of my house, camera pointed east. it shows the fence running down on the left side between my rented property, and the church property. mr. liebeler. can you see the room in which you were sitting when this shot was fired at you in that picture. i call your attention to where the police officer is standing. there is a police officer standing over there in front of a window, isn't there? general walker. i can see the corner of the house. the window is right in here. mr. liebeler. now you have indicated that where the policeman is standing in this walker exhibit no. , is part of the entrance to the house, but that is not the room that you were sitting in at the time the shot was fired at you? you were sitting in a room that is not even visible in this picture, because it is behind some bushes and trees that appear to the left foreground of the picture; is that correct? general walker. that is correct. the policeman is to the left--to the right. his position is to the right. mr. liebeler. as you face the picture? general walker. of the room i was sitting in. mr. liebeler. you can't actually see the window through which the shot came in that picture? general walker. not in this picture, you can't see the window. mr. liebeler. the dallas police department, of course, sent officers out to investigate this after the shot was fired at you, did they not? general walker. that is correct. mr. liebeler. you got out in the backyard and reviewed the possibilities, to try and figure out what happened with them at that time, and specifically i wonder---- general walker. seems to me i talked to them in the room first and showed them around. i believe i did. i can't recall whether they asked me out or not. there wasn't much to tell them. mr. liebeler. were you able to determine the spot from which it appeared the shot had been fired? general walker. we lined up the shot, the police did, and i noticed they worked this whole area back here to the fence, and even went out into the alley to find the lattice fence that sits right here. mr. liebeler. you mean the area immediately behind the picture? general walker. just behind the camera that took this picture. mr. liebeler. yes; walker exhibit no. . were you able to determine to your satisfaction the place from which the shot was fired? general walker. i was convinced there wasn't any doubt the shot was fired about where this cameraman was standing, or a little bit behind him and outside the lattice fence, probably firing through the fence which had spaces in it, squares of about to inches. certainly the lineup of the holes in the two, in the window and in the wall, gives the direction. the distance would be questionable to this point, based on the information i have. mr. liebeler. i hand you a photograph that i have marked walker exhibit no. , and i ask you to initial it on the back near my initials there. (general walker initials.) mr. liebeler. now that in fact is a photograph, is it not, of the fence to which you have just referred? general walker. yes; it is. mr. liebeler. and you think that the shot was probably from the other side of that fence, behind the fence as we face it, and very likely the rifle was rested on one of the slats and fired through it, is that correct? i suggested that this picture was taken from inside the yard. general watts pointed out it was very likely taken looking from the alley, so if this picture had been taken at the time the man was shooting, he would be in that picture very likely with his back toward the camera with the rifle through the fence? general walker. if he fired through the fence, he would very likely have been right in this picture, that is correct. mr. liebeler. well, now, when i look at walker exhibit no. , since you have indicated you thought that the shot was fired somewhere about where the camera was located when this picture was taken, or slightly behind it on the other side of the fence, i have considerable difficulty in that i can't see the window through which the shot went. how could the shot have been fired from there? general walker. you can sit in the house and turn off your lights and look right out through the fence and all the areas in the fence. it is just a question of lighting. the difficulty you are having here is a question of lighting of the picture, but if you are looking from the inside of the house, you see that fence in many places, all places. mr. liebeler. so that this picture which was obviously taken at night with a flash attachment does not give a true picture of the situation? general walker. not at all, because you can't see the house, and that is why the picture with the policeman in it is so hard to identify. windows don't show there. there is a whole glassed-in porch to the left of the policeman, as you look at this picture. there is a by glassed window there with a back porch that sticks out a little bit that doesn't show. then there is a window beside that porch in the room i was sitting in. well, delete that. i don't think the cooler was in the window at that time, but from that window, there is a space of or feet. then you come to the window that was fired through, and then there is or feet to the corner of the house. then referring back to the picture we referred to, the policeman was in, you see the dark alley going down beside the house between the house and the fence, which is the north side, in general, of the house. mr. liebeler. that picture, being walker exhibit no. . general walker. but i don't see how you could take a picture and see less of the house, and it is definitely because of the lighting in the picture and everything dark. the whole house is dark under the light, the way that picture was taken, so that you see very little of the house except the policeman, what he has of the light coming out behind him. mr. liebeler. right. now did you make any sudden movement on or about the time that shot was fired? general walker. none that i was aware of; no. just moving with a pencil and thoroughly engrossed in my income tax. mr. liebeler. how far is it from where you were sitting to the fence where we think the shot was fired from? how many feet? general walker. i would say feet. i would say between and feet. mr. liebeler. did you ever say in words or substance after this shot was fired at you that the guy must have been a lousy shot? that sounds like something you might say, doesn't it? general walker. yes. mr. liebeler. do you remember saying that? general walker. but i will tell you what i did think. i think i said that, right. the police asked me to sit down. you want me to tell you? mr. liebeler. yes. general walker. the police asked me to sit down when i got there and they went through the motions of lining up the shot from inside and outside. and one policeman said, "he couldn't have missed you." and one said, a lieutenant i believe it was, said, "it was an attempted assassination." and i said, "what makes you call it that?" and he said, "because he definitely was out to get you." and i said, "your remark sounds like a natural remark." but as i later was analyzing the thing, he couldn't see either with a scope or without a scope. he couldn't see from his position any of the lattice work either in the windows or in the screens because of the light. it would have looked like one big lighted area, and he could have been a very good shot and just by chance he hit the woodwork. mr. liebeler. which he did in fact? general walker. which he did, and there was enough deflection in it to miss me, except for slivers of the bullet, the casing of the bullet that went into my arm laying on the desk--slivers of the shell jacket. mr. liebeler. i show you a photograph marked commission exhibit no. and ask you if you recognize the scene in that picture? general walker. yes; i identify this picture looking approximately south down the alley, taken from about the entrance of where the alley enters the church, a few steps short of where the alley enters the church parking area. it is facing approximately south. shows the back entrance to my back yard and the tree and my garbage can and the lattice fence on the west. mr. liebeler. the alley that runs down there is the alley that runs directly behind your house, isn't that correct? general walker. that is correct. and the direction we are looking is the direction in which it connects and joins avondale street. mr. liebeler. do you recognize that object in the background that looks like a building maybe under construction? general walker. that is the bigger apartment house down south of me. mr. liebeler. i show you a photograph marked commission exhibit no. , that is a copy of exhibit no. , and ask you if that larger apartment building shown in the right background of that picture is not in fact the same building that is shown as being under construction in commission exhibit no. ? general walker. as well as i can identify it, it looks like the same building. mr. liebeler. looking further at exhibit no. , there is a house that is circled and indicated by the letter "a." that is, in fact, your house, is it not? general walker. that is correct. mr. liebeler. and the street marked "e" is turtle creek boulevard? general walker. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. of course, the whole picture is an aerial view of the general vicinity of your house and the apartment building, is it not? general walker. that is correct. and "h" would be avondale. mr. liebeler. yes; that's right. and "g" is irving street? general walker. that i don't know. probably is. the church alley shows up here going into turtle creek. mr. liebeler. point that out to me, would you please? general walker. yes. mr. liebeler. it is a little street that runs right between your house and the big building immediately next to your house just outside the circle? general walker. which is the mormon church. mr. liebeler. this is the church, is that correct? general walker. and the car was right here i referred to. mr. liebeler. just turning from the church alley? general walker. just turning here, and turning this direction. mr. liebeler. turning left up turtle creek? general walker. yes. mr. liebeler. i show you a document, a picture which is a copy of commission exhibit no. and ask you if you recognize the scene portrayed in that picture? general walker. i recognize my house in this picture. mr. liebeler. do you recognize anything else? specifically, i draw your attention to the automobile that is shown in there. general walker. i do not recognize the car. mr. liebeler. do you know charles klihr? general walker. would you spell it again? mr. liebeler. i will spell it right in just a minute. k-l-i-h-r. rosebud street, irving, tex. do you know that man? general walker. not that spelling. i know a charles clyr. as i know the spelling, it is c-l-y-r. mr. liebeler. does he live out in irving? general walker. i think he does. mr. liebeler. would you recognize his address? general walker. i wouldn't recognize his address. i don't recognize that address. that could or couldn't be it. mr. liebeler. how about that car, do you recognize that as his car? general walker. i don't recognize that car. mr. liebeler. this gentleman that we may be talking about, we may be talking about the same man, is a volunteer worker for you from time to time? general walker. if it is the one i am referring to, he is in and out quite often, right. he and his wife have helped me quite a bit. mr. liebeler. but you aren't able to identify that car as being his? general walker. no; i am not. mr. liebeler. does that car appear to be a chevrolet? or aren't you able to tell by looking? general walker. i am not able to tell. i am not very good on cars. mr. liebeler. now, you indicate that to the very far left of this photograph, commission exhibit no. , through these bushes there is a window, and that is the window through which the shot was fired, is that correct? general walker. that is correct. mr. liebeler. that is the window immediately left of the gasmeter there as you look at the picture? general walker. that is correct. mr. liebeler. you don't have any doubt that that is the back of your house? general walker. none at all. that is the back of the house. mr. liebeler. you have never seen that picture before, have you? general walker. no; i haven't. mr. liebeler. i show you a photograph which is a copy of commission exhibit no. . the photograph that i refer to is set forth in this copy, and i refer specifically to the one denominated p- and ask you if you recognize the scene portrayed therein. general walker. yes; i recognize that as the back of my house, a portion of it. mr. liebeler. i have another photograph i have marked walker exhibit no. , and i ask you to initial that, if you would, for the purpose of identification. general walker (initials). can i look at it? mr. liebeler. yes, please. that is a picture of the back of your house too, isn't it? general walker. yes; it is. mr. liebeler. i have shown you another picture which is walker exhibit no. , and i ask you to initial that, and ask you if that isn't in fact a picture of the alley behind your house. general walker (initials). yes; that is a picture of the alley looking south toward the same apartment building we referred to before, down to where the alley connects with avondale showing the back fence and the entrance into my backyard. i believe the picture is taken at a different date from the other one we referred to, because the fence has been changed behind the house. mr. liebeler. that apartment is completed in the picture? general walker. that's right. there was work on the fence in the other house and, also, the apartment building is in further advanced stage of construction. mr. liebeler. in fact, it looks to be completed in walker exhibit no. , does it not, the apartment building? general walker. yes; it does. mr. liebeler. now, i show you a series of photographs which are copies of commission exhibits nos. , , , , and , and ask you if each and every one is not, in fact, an aerial view of the general vicinity of your home and surrounding area, and if the identification of landmarks in those pictures, insofar as you can tell, is correct. general walker. is identification of my home. would certainly include the area of my home. it is hard to identify the exact house marked "a". mr. liebeler. well, that big old apartment building is in there in ? general walker. that is correct. so it is bound to include the area of my home; is the area of my home, and it indicates my house; certainly includes the area of my home, and it would be very difficult without further study to definitely identify that as my home. they all include the area of my home. my home definitely is in those pictures. mr. liebeler. you don't see any obvious mistakes, at least, as far as the identification and the symbols on the pictures are concerned? general walker. no; i don't. mr. liebeler. going back to the record on this klihr, it does appear, in fact, to be k-l-i-h-r. general walker. why don't we ring the house and establish that that is correct. la - . (general watts called on phone and confirmed it was k-l-i-h-r.) general walker. what is it? general watts. k-l-i-h-r. general walker. all right; that is the original spelling you had? mr. liebeler. yes. general walker. ok; that is correct. it is charles klihr. mr. liebeler. do you know robert surrey? general walker. yes, i do. mr. liebeler. has mr. surrey discussed with you the fact that on june , , he was interviewed by an agent of the federal bureau of investigation and shown a picture, or a copy of a picture similar to commission exhibit no. , which showed this automobile behind your house with the license plate obliterated on it? did he tell you he had been asked about that? general walker. he told me about a picture being shown to him of the back side of my house, and i believe he referred to it showing some automobile or automobiles being behind the house, but i don't remember any reference to that car or the hole in it. there wasn't any reference to that car, if that is a hole in the car. mr. liebeler. i represent to you that commission exhibit no. that we have here is a copy of an original photograph, which in fact had a hole torn in there right where the black part is on the car. the original picture itself has a hole right through there. general walker. then it is not a hole in the car? mr. liebeler. no; it is a hole in the original photograph, of which this thing i show you now is a copy. general walker. oh, i see. mr. liebeler. i thought exactly what you thought the first time i looked at it; that that was a hole in the car. it is not. it is a hole in the picture. general walker. he referred to being shown photographs with the back of the premises and the car or something back there. mr. liebeler. but you don't remember him telling you that he was able to identify this as charles klihr's car? general walker. no; i don't remember that he identified the car. mr. liebeler. now, i understand that mr. surrey saw two men in the vicinity of your house shortly before april , , acting in a manner that he regarded as suspicious. did he report that to you at or about that time? general walker. he has reported that to me, and i don't remember the date on which he did. mr. liebeler. was it prior to the time that the shot was fired at you? general walker. i can't recall. mr. liebeler. you have no recollection of the fact, if it is a fact, that surrey had seen two men out there in an automobile that didn't have any license plate on it? general walker. yes; i do. i knew. he told me that he had come toward my house and noticed a car, as i remember, parked on avondale, and he went on by or backed up or something and got out and came behind the car and saw two men moving around in the area somewhere in the alley in the back part of my house. then he followed that car. they went down to the center of town, and he lost them. i would suspect that he told me that the next morning, if not that night. mr. liebeler. do you recall whether or not you reported that to the police? general walker. yes; that was called in to the police. as i recall, that was. i believe there is a report at the house that it was called in to the police. as i recall, it was, and i told them what we knew about it. mr. liebeler. as you reflect on that event, do you recall it was called in to the police prior to the time the shot was fired? general walker. as i reflect, it must have been called in either that night or the next morning. i don't recall the exact time, but the police record will show it. mr. liebeler. did you make the call yourself, or did someone else do that, if you remember? general walker. as i recall, i made it. mr. liebeler. do you remember what kind of response you got from the dallas police department? general walker. seemed normal. wasn't upset about it. mr. liebeler. now, subsequent to april , , of course, the dallas police department conducted an investigation of the attack on you; is that not right? general walker. will you repeat that? mr. liebeler. the dallas police department investigated this attack on you that occurred on april , ? they sent men out there and talked to you and took some pictures? general walker. oh, subsequent to it; yes. subsequent, right; they did. mr. liebeler. did they discuss with you any possible suspects that they might have come up with, any leads they had on it as to who might have been involved? general walker. i don't recall that they did. they may have, and i may have told them who had been in and about around the house, or who had worked for me. i don't recall this definitely, but the records will probably show. mr. liebeler. do you have any records like that here? general walker. no; i don't. mr. liebeler. did the name lee harvey oswald come up in connection with this investigation in any way at that time? general walker. no; it didn't. mr. liebeler. do you know william duff? general walker. i know who william duff is under that name; yes. mr. liebeler. in fact, he lived in your house for a while and worked for you as a batman? general walker. yes; that is what he calls himself; right. mr. liebeler. when did you first make the acquaintance of mr. duff? general walker. he walked in the house late one evening and said he was out of a job and out of a place to sleep, and i put him up and put him to work. the date i would have to get for you; i don't remember. mr. liebeler. well, was it sometime prior to april , , in any event? general walker. yes; it was. mr. liebeler. was duff living in your house at the time of the attack on you? general walker. no; he wasn't. mr. liebeler. about how long had he been gone; can you remember? general walker. as general figures, i would say he worked about months for me, and he had been gone a month or two. i would have to verify these. mr. liebeler. now, the fact is that you suspected, possibly, that duff might have been involved in this attack on your life, didn't you? general walker. i suspected that he might be involved. mr. liebeler. and you conducted an investigation of that possibility, did you not? general walker. that is correct. mr. liebeler. in connection with that investigation, two detectives from general watts' office, one, kester, and one, roberts, came down to dallas and engaged in an investigation, did they not? general walker. they did. mr. liebeler. will you tell us about that, please? general walker. they were in and out, as i remember, in the investigation, and in contact with my house from time to time during it, and even drove duff around in a car, finally, and he explained how he would have shot at me if he had intended to, or if he had any such intentions. general watts. i got a call--i don't remember the exact date--but i do have a record of it. i got a call from mrs. kenecht in general walker's office to the effect that an anonymous telephone call came in from some lady who advised mrs. kenecht that this boy duff had been going with the lady's daughter and had bragged to the daughter that he had been in on the shooting at general walker. so i sent these two investigators whose names were just mentioned, connected with our office. they are ex-detectives or policemen from the oklahoma city police department and do freelance investigating. i sent them down here with a tape recorder to verify as much as they could from duff, because we were very apprehensive that he might take another shot at walker. we couldn't get duff to admit that he actually fired the shot, but he professed to readiness to stage another attempt if someone would raise $ , . it is my recollection that the tape recording was turned over to the dallas police department. mr. liebeler. let me ask: were you, general walker, generally familiar with the events at the time, and reports were made to you about the progress? general walker. i was familiar with the progress of the investigation and got a final copy of it. i thought it solved nothing, but duff was telling his usual lies. mr. liebeler. general watts' description of these events is accurate, to the best of your knowledge; is that correct? general walker. that is correct, except that i do not agree with general watts' statement that duff had implicated himself in the attack on me by statements to the daughter of this woman who called mrs. kenecht. my information is only to the effect that the girl's mother was upset about her daughter's friendship with duff. as far as i know, she never said that duff admitted being involved in the attack on me that occurred on april , . mr. liebeler. general watts, you indicated you had some additional information on mr. duff. general watts. yes; one friday evening--i could get the exact date--i was dictating in my bedroom at home, and i looked up and there stood duff whom i hadn't seen since he had worked at general walker's, but whom we had investigated, and he told me a rather weird story. he had gone to the army and was stationed at fort sill, and immediately after the assassination he was interrogated by personnel from the justice department and was charged with fraudulent enlistment, according to him. he had failed to enter on his enlistment papers that he had worked for general walker, and when it became known that he had worked for general walker, he was charged with fraudulent enlistment along in december , and his pay cut off. he professed to me that he had been living at fort sill, although not under arrest, but without pay since the previous december, and had no funds, and was about to be discharged. so in order to keep tab on him, i arranged for him to get a job with a friend, paul blakeley, for whom he worked for a short time, and later got him another job with a contractor, w. h. thompson, for whom he is, as far as i know, still working. and after things get quieted down, i fully intend to see what information i can get out of duff, if you can depend on what he says, and if he knows anything, he has never told anybody up to this date. mr. liebeler. in fact, the inference to be drawn is that duff is an extremely unreliable individual, so far as telling the truth? general walker. i wouldn't believe anything the boy would say unless it was verified. general watts. i did call fort sill and talk to the judge advocate, who raised considerable question as to the accuracy of the story duff told me. and frankly, i wouldn't believe a word the boy would say unless i have absolute verification of it. but i am at least suspicious that he knows something that he has never told. mr. liebeler. as far as the attempt on general walker is concerned? general watts. that is right. mr. liebeler. well, now, what makes you think that he does know something about that? let me say this. since this is almost a friendly, if i may say so, session, i assume that we can take it that the remarks that you are making will be under oath, is that correct? and you will swear to that? general watts. yes. general walker. they should be identified as that of my attorney because they don't necessarily agree with my opinion. general watts. my opinion and general walker's don't frequently jibe. mr. liebeler. let us swear you. do you solemnly swear that the testimony you have given and you will give throughout the rest of this deposition will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? general watts. i do. mr. liebeler. now, you indicated that you had some belief that duff might know something about the attempt on general walker that he hasn't told you. do you have any basis for that? general watts. my only basis is suspicion. first; his generally unreliable nature. second; i have never fully satisfied myself as to the accuracy of the investigation these boys made where duff undoubtedly had made some kind of an alarming statement to this unknown woman who called in. we have never been able to locate or identify her. i have never reconciled his tape recorder statement that he had not shot at walker, but would do so for $ , , with the apparent statement to this unidentified woman's daughter that he had actually fired at walker. in other words, we could never verify that by our investigation. mr. liebeler. general walker, were you satisfied, or did you reach a conclusion as a result of these investigations or any other way, as to duff's involvement in the attack made on you on april . do you think he knows anything about it that he hasn't told us, or do you think he was involved in it in any way? do you have any evidence to indicate that he was? general walker. i also know that i wouldn't believe percent of what duff said about anything. i have come to no conclusion even after the investigation that he was even involved. knowing duff; i felt that if the investigators were a little bit naive, they got tricked more than duff got tricked. mr. liebeler. but these investigators weren't able to develop anything that led you to think that duff had been involved in the attack on you made on april , , isn't that right? general walker. it led me to believe what? mr. liebeler. that duff had been involved in the attack on you. general walker. according to his fantastic stories, it might lead to the belief that he had been involved, like my attorney says, but duff is so fantastic that i don't believe a word he says. mr. liebeler. do you have any evidence other than the statement that duff is alleged to have made to his girl friend that would indicate that he was involved in the attack on you? do you have any indication that he was involved in it at all? general walker. none; other than, as i remember what he has stated, and there is something else. and based on duff's nature. mr. liebeler. you wouldn't believe what he said? general walker. he never appeared a vicious fellow, and i rather liked the guy for what he was supposed to do at the time i had him, until i realized that nothing was truthful that he said, and i felt that he had left feeling friendly, actually, except that he left by having been ushered to the door while i was gone and told not to come back. general watts. he truly professes to feeling very friendly to general walker. i have never confronted him with the fact that the investigators have a tape recording that he was anxious to get a shot at walker for $ , , but i am still suspicious that duff knows something that he hasn't told. general walker. it is certainly true, to further my counsel's statement, that duff certainly lived in the area of night clubs and beer joints and so forth, and he could still know something and not be involved himself. general watts. yes. mr. liebeler. now, have you any information of any kind that would indicate or suggest who actually took that shot at you? general walker. none; other than the indications that have been brought up here with respect to duff. he did appear back in my house at one time after this, just walked in. which i don't bring up now as an idea that that gave further indication that he did. i can't seem to recall exactly what the purpose of his visit was, but i wasn't very warm toward him and he was soon out the door after talking to him maybe or minutes. other than duff and what we have covered here, the only indications of anybody that might have taken a shot at me is what has been said and expressed by other people regarding oswald's connection in the case of shooting at me. mr. liebeler. so aside from duff and aside from what has been made public as regards oswald's involvement, you have no other leads or conclusions or ideas as to who might have taken the shot at you on april , ? general walker. no; i am pretty well blocked by you all and the fact that--not particularly you, as the fbi having taken the information on the case from the city police, and it is difficult to find who is now responsible for an open case, and also the lack of contact with my counsel at any time regarding oswald's position in this from the time the shot was fired or even after the events of november , . mr. liebeler. well, of course, all that information will be made public eventually, and aside from that, the basic thrust of my question at this moment is, you don't have any other information other than what we have already covered here that would give us any ideas as to who might have done that, is that correct? general walker. that is correct. mr. liebeler. do you have any basis for believing that there was any connection between duff and oswald? general walker. none at all. mr. liebeler. you never even heard of oswald? general walker. only with respect to what we have passed over with regard to what we have said about duff, and we have heard said about oswald. i have no information of oswald's name ever being mentioned in my house, and i had never heard of the name with regard to the individual we are referring to at any time since i have been in dallas or any other time. mr. liebeler. you have never heard of any connection until the assassination? general walker. until his activities of november . more specifically, no knowledge or no reference of any indication that duff was in any way connected with oswald. i still think that the information that kirk coleman gave is very relevant to this case, and i would like to say as far as i am concerned, our efforts are practically blocked. i would like to see at least a capability of my counsel being able to talk to these witnesses freely and that you or the fbi give a release on them with respect to being able to discuss it as it involves me. mr. liebeler. well, has your counsel attempted to talk to mr. coleman and mr. coleman refused to talk to him? so far as i know, this commission---- general watts. i never tried to talk to coleman. general walker. the word we got is, the boy has been told not to say anything. that may not be the direct information, but i think you will find it about what the situation is. general watts. this is off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. liebeler. the last question was, has your counsel attempted to talk to mr. coleman and mr. coleman refused to talk to him? general walker. no; i have no knowledge of my counsel trying to speak to him, but i was told by others that tried to get to him that he has been advised and wasn't talking, and that he had been advised not to talk. mr. liebeler. when was that, general walker, do you remember? general walker. oh, it's been at least or months ago. mr. liebeler. do you know who told him he wasn't supposed to talk to anybody? general walker. no; i don't. it is my understanding some law enforcement agency in some echelon. but the important thing we would like to find out is who is responsible for the open case, if it is back in the hands of the city police or if it is still held under advisement, and as soon as it got back into their hands, we can go to dealing with them. until it does, under your requirements, if there are such requirements, the question becomes when can we get into this further? mr. liebeler. i want the record to indicate that the commission, to my knowledge at least, and i think i would know about it, has never told anybody not to talk to you about the attack on you in any way, shape or form whatsoever, and has no intention of doing so. that is point . point is that the commission is conducting its own investigation into this matter, and has requested the federal bureau of investigation to conduct an investigation into the matter, which it has done at the request of the commission, and the report will include a finding one way or the other as to whether oswald was the man who was involved in this attack on you. general walker. it will have such a finding? mr. liebeler. it certainly will, and will be a complete disclosure. general walker. then it must be handling the case, because we have information that the city police turned all the information over to the fbi and there was nothing for us to deal with them about. my counsel went to the city police on this. then the fbi definitely said that they had turned it over to the commission, and then they were under whatever wraps there were, but wraps that kept them from carrying on any development of the cases. mr. liebeler. no activity of this commission has ever foreclosed any other law enforcement agency from doing anything that they saw fit to do. the fbi conducts its investigation in any way it sees fit, and the dallas police department does the same thing. general walker. i think we should have a round robin discussion with the city police, fbi, and yourself, if you all have what you have stated, so that we will understand this too, and place this case and the warren reynolds case back where they should be. i would think that we should get together to establish who is responsible for the open cases in the city of dallas. mr. liebeler. well, the president's commission on the investigation of the assassination of president kennedy is certainly not responsible for open cases in the city of dallas. that your counsel will tell you. that is perfectly obvious. general walker. then i want to go on the record that the city police has misused the commission and also the fbi. mr. liebeler. i have no knowledge of that. general walker. i think it is--i can't straighten it out and neither can my counsel. i think it is perfectly obvious that somebody is misusing somebody, the fact that we have no starting point and this is an open case, and this is true with warren reynolds as well as myself. mr. liebeler. i am glad you brought that subject up. tell us what you know about that. general walker. i certainly will. mr. liebeler. before you do, i think i did hear the witness come in out here. go ahead. general walker. i would prefer you to question me on which way you want me to discuss this case and i will answer what is necessary. mr. liebeler. do you know warren reynolds? general walker. i do know warren reynolds. mr. liebeler. when did you meet him? general walker. my first contact with warren reynolds was by telephone, i would say sometime in the area of or days after he was shot through the temple. i thought i had the date of that, or the press release, but i didn't seem to bring it with me. but you probably have that date. it doesn't make much difference. i would say sometime i saw a notice in the paper when it came out to the effect that warren reynolds had been shot in the head and a latin type was seen running away. i left on a trip and came back to the house, and i was curious about warren reynolds and i asked somebody in the house to call and see about reynolds, and was told to call the hospital. i found out that day finally after calling out to his place of business, found out he was out walking around that afternoon. i think we found out he had just been released from the hospital that day. i would say that was about days from the time he was fired at. mr. liebeler. do you have the date of that? general walker. that was approximately january or january , , and within a day or two i had a telephone conversation over there. i talked to warren reynolds finally and he said he wanted to talk to me or said he would talk to me, and i asked him the circumstances of what had happened to him. within a day or two i would say--i said, "if you want to see me, you can." and he came to the house and discussed what had happened to him with regard to being shot through the head, how it all happened, and i have been quite interested in his case. mr. liebeler. now, am i correct in understanding that you initiated the contact with mr. reynolds? general walker. i did. mr. liebeler. how many times have you seen him? general walker. sir? mr. liebeler. when was the first time you actually saw him in person, if you ever did, and i believe that you did. general walker. i don't remember the exact date, but a week after the first telephone conversation, within a week or so after the first telephone conversation, i believe he dropped by the house with his brother. mr. liebeler. how many times have you seen him in person altogether? general walker. i believe he has been in the house twice. mr. liebeler. you have also had various telephone conversations with him, isn't that right, general walker? general walker. yes. mr. liebeler. in fact, you talked on the telephone with him yesterday noon, didn't you? general walker. very likely. mr. liebeler. do you recall whether you did? general walker. i talked to him yesterday, yes. i don't remember the exact time. mr. liebeler. will you tell us the substance, the general substance of your conversation with him over this period that you have been in contact with him. general walker. i was very much interested in his case and why they would have, why there would have been an attempt on his life, since, according to his story, you might say he was the last one to see oswald in the domestic state after he had killed police officer tippit. i have had these conversations with him to get all the details i could regarding why he thought he was shot at or who shot at him and what the police were doing about it, and how he felt about it. mr. liebeler. did he indicate to you the first time that he talked to you that he thought there was some connection between the attack on him and his observation of oswald? general walker. pardon? mr. liebeler. following the time that oswald shot officer tippit? general walker. will you repeat the question? mr. liebeler. did reynolds tell you that he thought there was some connection between the attack on him and oswald killing tippit? general walker. we discussed that. mr. liebeler. did he tell you that he thought there was a connection between the two? general walker. he seemed to think there might be. mr. liebeler. do you think there is? general walker. yes; i do. mr. liebeler. do you have any evidence to indicate that there is? general walker. i think there is a definite--i don't know that you could call it evidence--but you can anticipate that people would like to shut up anybody that knows anything about this case. people right here in dallas. and i don't think anybody knows or would have known at the time after november how much or how little warren reynolds knew. mr. liebeler. in fact, he doesn't know very much, does he? general walker. he would become a very good example, regardless of what he knew, to let everybody know that they better keep their mouths shut. mr. liebeler. well, now, wouldn't it be fair to say that that is pure speculation on your part? general walker. yes, but everything is speculation until you prove it or disprove it. mr. liebeler. but my basic problem is this, and i am not just trying to harass you. i want to know if you have any evidence or can give us some idea on how to approach this problem to find out if there is any connection, because the commission would certainly like to know if there is. general walker. i would be much interested in the hanging of the woman in the prison here in the cell that said she had worked in the carousel club, her only claim to fame, who i believe was the same woman, as i remember my information at this point, was the same woman that was driven over to this used car lot where the reynolds brothers worked. mr. liebeler. well, now, in point of fact, your primary source of information in connection with this whole thing is the newspaper story written by bob considine; isn't that right? that is where you first got all this information? general walker. he did cite this case; that is correct. that was one of the pieces of information i had. mr. liebeler. you cited from this newspaper story and the statements that warren reynolds has made to you, and your observations about what you have been told about the facts regarding this stripper. are these the only things that led you to believe, plus your other statement about keeping people quiet, are the only things that led you to believe there might be some connection between these two events? isn't that a fair statement? general walker. it would seem significant to me from reynolds' story that he was only checked by the law enforcement agencies days before he was shot, that somebody was watching what was going on. there are many things that would make me go into a lot of leads which no doubt make you all go into a lot of leads. probably what you already know, but just to say that one particular thing is the only thing that makes me curious about this attempt on warren's life as the one out of a hundred of used car lot operators in dallas, to attempt the assassination of warren who had seen oswald, makes this quite unusual. mr. liebeler. i want you to tell us right now on the record all of the things that you can think of that led you to believe that there is some connection between these two events, in addition to the ones that you have already suggested. general walker. i have just referred to one. mr. liebeler. that one that you referred to is the---- general walker. the fact that there has not been, as far as i know, any finding of the man who attempted to kill him, is another one. mr. liebeler. you mentioned previously that reynolds had said that the law enforcement--you didn't say reynolds said it--you said that you understood that the law enforcement officers had checked reynolds just days before he had been shot; is that correct? general walker. that is correct. mr. liebeler. that is what reynolds told you? general walker. that is correct. i believe he referred to them as fbi. mr. liebeler. do you have any other indications of any possible relationship between these things, that would help the commission try to find out if there is a relationship between these events? general walker. i don't think of anything else; no. mr. liebeler. now you sent a telegram to the commission suggesting that we question warren reynolds? general walker. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. as you probably know, of course, we have questioned him yesterday. general walker. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. did you discuss mr. reynolds' appearance with us, with him? general walker. i did. he called me on the telephone and we discussed it. he said you were a very nice young man. mr. liebeler. thank you, general walker. thank mr. reynolds. you didn't say that. that is what he said. that isn't what you said. general walker. i may call him tonight and tell him the same thing. i think we are working in the same effort and same direction. i haven't done anything to hide on this thing. i do ask that you all get the chain of command straightened out here, or chain of responsibility with respect to the case. mr. liebeler. those problems come up many times because there isn't any real chain of command or responsibility between these people. we don't have very much to do with the dallas police department. general walker. when they pass things to the fbi and the fbi is responsible to you, then it gives me a feeling it is probably out of their hands. certainly they have used that. mr. liebeler. now do you have any knowledge or any information that would indicate that oswald was involved in a conspiracy of any type on the assassination of the president? general walker. i think he designated his own conspiracy when he said he was a member of the fair play for cuba committee. that to me is a definite recognition of conspiracy. mr. liebeler. suggesting that the fair play for cuba committee was involved? general walker. i would say as a member of the fair play for cuba committee, it could not be segregated from being involved in it when one of its members does it, who thinks like they do. mr. liebeler. well, that is of course, your view. my question of you is this. do you have any evidence or any knowledge that would indicate either the involvement of the fair play for cuba committee or any other individual or organization in a conspiracy or plot to assassinate the president. the fact that oswald may have been a member of this organization, which he was, of course, is a fact that can be viewed from many different ways. but my question to you is somewhat different from that, and that is, do you know of or have any evidence to indicate that this organization or any other organization or any other person was involved with oswald in the assassination of the president? general walker. my answer to you is that i have exactly the evidence that you have, which is evidence that it was involved in the conspiracy, because he said he was a member of the fair play for cuba committee, and i consider the objectives of the fair play for cuba committee a communist activity and a conspiracy. mr. liebeler. do you know if anyone discussed the assassination with oswald prior to the time that he assassinated the president, if he did the assassination; do you have any indication of that? general walker. i have no personal knowledge that they did. mr. liebeler. do you have any indication that they did? general walker. i certainly do. mr. liebeler. would you tell us what that is? general walker. the indications seem to be not only mine, but all over the country that rubenstein and oswald had some association. mr. liebeler. can you indicate to us what it was? general walker. well, i am wondering about one thing, how rubenstein can take his car in to be fixed and oswald can sign the ticket and pick up the car. mr. liebeler. now can you tell us when and where that happened? general walker. i haven't been able to verify that it happened for sure, but i have been told that it happened. mr. liebeler. who told you that? general walker. my information came from a repairman, from another fellow to a friend of mine, to me. mr. liebeler. could you give us the name of the person? general walker. i don't think it is necessary. i think you have all the information, because the information also includes the fact that the records were picked up in the repair shop. mr. liebeler. whether we have the information or not, i am asking you if you know the name of that repairman who said that oswald said he picked up his car? general walker. no; i don't. mr. liebeler. do you know the name of the garage? general walker. no; i don't. as i remember, it was a hotel garage. mr. liebeler. can you give us the name of the people that brought the information to you, so it can be traced back to this source? who the garageman is, apparently as you say, that it came from a garageman somewhere. general walker. no; i think your sources are better than mine on this. mr. liebeler. that is not my question. my question is, do you know their names? general walker. yes; i do, but i am not telling. mr. liebeler. so you are not going to tell us the names of these people? general walker. hold up. off the record. (discussion off the record.) general walker. we are all working in the best interests of this thing. i don't see where my sources of information have to be revealed. you know whether the information is any good or not, and i don't see any reason to get any more people involved than are already involved in it. the information is either correct or incorrect, and can be substantiated by your commission, or it is not. this that i am telling you is the information i have got. now, if you all find out that it is absolutely necessary to your information, but revelation of the names of the people isn't necessary to your information with regard to the assassination. i think we have covered the assassination, and--as helpful as i can be--don't think i wouldn't be delighted to see exactly all the truth that can probably come out of it, come out of it. mr. liebeler. all we are asking you to do is give us whatever information you have that can help us in this investigation. general walker. that i think we have covered, haven't we? mr. liebeler. i don't know whether we have or not. general walker. if you find out you need the further information that will really help the assassination story--we will leave it like this--i will do the best i can to cooperate on it, but i don't think it is necessary to reveal all the sources of my information, and the story which you all should have the basic facts. the basic facts are the records on the story and you either know whether or not they are true or not. i haven't done all this investigation. mr. liebeler. well, i am not able to make a determination as to whether or not the information that you have would be helpful to the commission's work because i don't know what information you have. general walker. let's leave that, because if it is in the best interest of finding anything, that there is a hole in their findings, why we will reveal it. mr. liebeler. i am going to let the question stand. i do ask you to tell me who advised you or who apprised you of information that oswald picked up jack ruby's car, because i am not able to make a determination as to whether or not that information would be worthless to the commission. it might be helpful and it it might be that these people should be questioned by people on the commission staff or by the fbi. so for that reason, i am compelled to let the question stand, and i do renew my request for you to give me the answer. general walker. i will answer that at some later date if you find it necessary, i will reconsider it. mr. liebeler. now, aside from the matter we have just discussed, can you tell us what other common acquaintances mr. ruby and mr. oswald had, as that is the statement that started all this? you indicated that ruby and oswald had common acquaintances. general walker. i thought demar's statements--i believe the man is demar--were very interesting, and they were only by hearsay from the newspaper, if you call that hearsay. mr. liebeler. do you have any other indication that oswald and ruby were connected? general walker. i am going back on the other question. i say it was only from newspapers. they have been also from the owner or editor of the newspaper, who may have told me that his reporter had been in touch with demar. i believe the town is on the tennessee-kentucky border or somewhere up there. i don't recall the name of the town where he was at the time. mr. liebeler. this is demar that was up there? general walker. yes. have i got the right name? demar is the man that was on the program in one of rubenstein's clubs. mr. liebeler. the name seems familiar to me. i don't know the man's name actually myself. general walker. as i recall, it was demar, the one that made the original statement that he saw oswald in the club one night. that was printed in the press. mr. liebeler. aside from the fellow demar having made the statement, do you know of any other connection between ruby and oswald or any other common acquaintances that they may have? general walker. i believe we verified that oswald had been for a short period living in the same apartment house where ruby's sister lived. mr. liebeler. what is ruby's sister's name? general walker. eva grant. mr. liebeler. do you know what apartment house that is? general walker. no; i don't recall. mr. liebeler. who verified this? general walker. i say i believe i verified it. mr. liebeler. you did yourself? general walker. with assistance. mr. liebeler. now, you are telling me that you conducted an investigation of some sort into the possibility that ruby's sister, eva grant, and oswald lived in the same apartment house? now is that in the city of dallas? general walker. that is correct. and as i recall the address, i never did pinpoint it, but as i recall, it wouldn't be too far from where i live. and of course, i am still interested in my case with respect to oswald, if there is any significance. mr. liebeler. now can you tell me when they were supposed to have lived in this apartment house? general walker. i don't recall the date. mr. liebeler. was it ? general walker. this is getting pretty old in my mind. it definitely would have been in ; yes. mr. liebeler. ? general walker. right. mr. liebeler. was the apartment on neely street, if you remember? general walker. as i recall--is neely over in oak cliff or on this side? mr. liebeler. it is in oak cliff. general walker. no; it wasn't that far away. mr. liebeler. it wasn't in oak cliff at all? general walker. well, i had the idea at the time that it was on this side of town, out the side i am on. mr. liebeler. well, from the time oswald came back from the soviet union and moved to dallas and the time he was killed, he lived in an apartment on neely street, and on elsbeth street and in a room on marsalis street, and north beckley street. those are the only four places he ever lived. was it on any one of those four streets that this is supposed to have happened? general walker. i can't recall definitely. are they over in oak cliff? mr. liebeler. i believe each and every one of them, with the possible exception of marsalis, is. general walker. i can get the information that i must have recorded somewhere on the address we have. mr. liebeler. if you have any indication that oswald lived in the same apartment house that ruby's sister lived, i will appreciate it very much if you would supply it to the commission. general walker. take a note on that, will you. i believe there is a paper release on it. mr. liebeler. do you have any other information that would indicate any connection between ruby and oswald? by that question i do not mean to characterize the previous testimony. general walker. if oswald was the one that was at my house, i wonder where he was from the time he left until he got home, since the las vegas club is not too far from my house. mr. liebeler. do you have any indication that oswald went to that club? general walker. no; i don't. mr. liebeler. do you have any other information that would suggest a connection between these two men? general walker. i think the two boxes in the post office are very interesting. mr. liebeler. well, are you suggesting that because two men both happened to have post office boxes in the same post office, that that suggests there is some connection between them and indicates conspiracy to assassinate the president? general walker. the boxes were rented the same week. mr. liebeler. were what? general walker. i believe the boxes were arranged the same week in the post office. mr. liebeler. rented? general walker. rented. mr. liebeler. you think that suggests a conspiracy between oswald and ruby to assassinate the president? general walker. i think that is more information. mr. liebeler. but i want to know. general walker. that suggests a possible relationship. i think the fact that rubenstein shot oswald suggests plenty. i am convinced he couldn't have shot him except for one basic reason, and maybe many others, but to keep him quiet. that is what shooting people does. i think the whole city of dallas is very interested. i would be interested in the information on a professor wolf, william t. wolf. mr. liebeler. who is he? general walker. william t. mr. liebeler. what information is that? general walker. the first man we found in the paper that seemed to have come to death after the attempted shot at me. mr. liebeler. i am not familiar with the circumstances surrounding that. would you tell me about dr. wolf? general walker. william t. wolf is a professor that was supposedly burned up in an apartment, which seems impossible to have burned a man up, a normal man with his normal faculties, because the apartment, he couldn't have been trapped in it on the first floor. mr. liebeler. did you know dr. wolf? general walker. never heard of him until i read about him in the paper, and i believe i read about him days after they shot at me. mr. liebeler. you think there is some connection between dr. wolf's death and the shot at you? general walker. no; but i think there is some connection with respect to what is going on in dallas. mr. liebeler. well, now, does this relate to the possibility of a conspiracy between oswald and ruby to assassinate president kennedy? general walker. i think many unusual deaths in the city of dallas might show some indication of what is going on in dallas, to include what happened on the d of november. and i would refer to one other, a professor by the name of deen. his name is george c. deen. mr. liebeler. what has that got to do with the assassination of president kennedy? what are the facts about it? general walker. i would think it has to do with the investigation. mr. liebeler. well, in what way? general walker. it seems rather mysterious that a young doctor of psychiatry at timberlawn would, so far as i can tell, only show up in the obituary page. mr. liebeler. what happened to this fellow? general walker. reported died of natural causes, i believe, or certainly nothing more than the obituary, so far as i can find. mr. liebeler. are you familiar with the organization known as the minutemen? general walker. in general terms. mr. liebeler. are you a member of that organization? general walker. i am not. mr. liebeler. do you know of any connection between the minutemen and the assassination of president kennedy? general walker. i do not. mr. liebeler. do you know of any conspiracy or connection on the part of any so-called rightwing organization and the assassination of president kennedy? general walker. i do not. mr. liebeler. do you know of any connection between any of the people who associate themselves with and who, shall we say, follow you as a political leader, and the assassination of president kennedy? general walker. no. people that follow me are for constitutional government. this is absolutely in violation of constitutional government. very destructive to what we stand for. mr. liebeler. so you say that there is no involvement of any kind or nature whatever between any of the organizations or people that associate with you or are involved with you in the assassination of president kennedy? general walker. i certainly know of none, and i certainly wouldn't be suspicious of any. i would be suspicious from the center to the left. mr. liebeler. in any event, you don't have any knowledge of or information that would suggest to you any such conspiracy or involvement of any rightwing organization or person; is that correct? general walker. that is correct. mr. liebeler. now, i asked general watts to bring whatever records you have that would indicate your whereabouts in october and after that in . particularly, i want to know whether you were at a political rally or meeting that was held immediately prior to the visit of adlai stevenson to the city of dallas in october of . general walker. yes, i was the speaker on the day before mr. stevenson appeared in the auditorium. i was the speaker in the same room and the same platform on october . mr. liebeler. was that event called u.s. day? general walker. u.s. day rally. mr. liebeler. how many people would you say were there at that rally? general walker. the room holds about , seats, and there were about , to , . mr. liebeler. were you aware of the fact that lee harvey oswald claims to have been at that meeting? general walker. no, sir; i wasn't. mr. liebeler. you didn't know he was there at the time? general walker. i don't know yet. mr. liebeler. in any event, you didn't know then? general walker. certainly didn't. mr. liebeler. do you recall speaking--pardon me, not speaking, but going to any meetings of anti-castro cuban groups during the month of october ? general walker. during what month? mr. liebeler. october. general walker. i don't remember a date of attendance. mr. liebeler. isn't it a fact that there were some meetings here in dallas sponsored by an organization known as dre, which is a revolutionary group that is opposed to fidel castro? do you remember that? general walker. what does dre stand for? mr. liebeler. it is the initials of a lot of spanish words which stands for the student revolutionary council. it is an anti-castro organization. general walker. what does dre stand for? how would they have advertised themselves? mr. liebeler. i think it is probably dre. general walker. meaning what? mr. liebeler. it is spanish words i am not familiar with. general walker. well, there is a student directorate group, which i remember they call themselves, and that is the way they identified themselves. i attended a meeting sometime and listened to some speakers. mr. liebeler. they came from miami? general walker. i believe they came from miami. mr. liebeler. and you contributed $ to the organization that night? general walker. i believe i did. mr. liebeler. did you see lee harvey oswald at that meeting? general walker. no; i did not. mr. liebeler. in point of fact, it would be correct to state that, to your knowledge, you never saw or heard of lee harvey oswald at any time prior to the time that his name was announced after the assassination on november , ? general walker. that is correct. mr. liebeler. you had no connection of any sort whatsoever with him prior to that time? general walker. none at all. mr. liebeler. or since that time? general walker. or with anybody that i ever knew that was associated with him, unless duff turns out to be. general watts. off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. liebeler. do you know helmet hubert muench? general walker. that name is not familiar to me. can you give me anything to refresh me? mr. liebeler. yes. he is a west german journalist who wrote an article that appeared in the deutsche nationalzeitung und soldatenzeitung, a munich, germany, newspaper. general walker. no; i don't know him. mr. liebeler. did you ever talk to him? general walker. not that i know of. mr. liebeler. did you talk to him on a transatlantic telephone call in which you told him about the fact or the alleged fact that lee harvey oswald was the person who made an attempt on your life? general walker. i don't recall that name. did he speak english? i don't speak german. mr. liebeler. have you ever seen a copy of that newspaper? general walker. yes; i have. mr. liebeler. in fact, i suggest that you have seen the november , , copy of that newspaper which had on its front page a story entitled in german "the strange case of oswald", that told about how oswald had allegedly attacked you. general walker. november , that is correct. mr. liebeler. now, where did that newspaper get that information, do you know? general walker. i do not. there was an article in the paper that he probably got from me. mr. liebeler. well, in fact, the issue of that newspaper has right on the front page what purports to be a transcript of a telephone conversation between you and some other person. general walker. thorsten? mr. liebeler. yes. hasso thorsten, is that the man? general walker. he called me in shreveport. mr. liebeler. when were you in shreveport? general walker. he called me the morning of november , , about a.m. mr. liebeler. that is when you gave him this information about oswald having attacked you? general walker. i didn't give him all the information--i think the portion you are referring to, i didn't give him, because i had no way of knowing that oswald attacked me. i still don't. and i am not very prone to say in fact he did. in fact, i have always claimed he did not, until we can get into the case or somebody tells us differently that he did. mr. liebeler. do you have a record here that indicates when you were in shreveport? general walker. i don't know that i have a record here. i can tell you definitely when i was in shreveport. mr. liebeler. would you? general walker. well, starting back to make the record clear, i had a speaking engagement in hattiesburg, miss., either the th or th of november. i went from there to new orleans and stayed or days. i was in the airplane between new orleans and shreveport about halfway, when the pilot announced that the president had been assassinated. i landed in shreveport and went to the captain shreve hotel and stayed there two nights and returned to dallas and was walking into my house, just about the time of the immediate rerun of the shooting of oswald. i had been out of the city on speaking engagements. mr. liebeler. the question was, when were you in shreveport, and when did you talk to this man? general walker. i was in shreveport the night of the d and the night of the d. do you have a transcript of my conversation with mr. thorsten? mr. liebeler. yes, sir. general walker. sir? mr. liebeler. i have what appears to be that; yes. general walker. where did you get that? mr. liebeler. it is apparently taken from the newspaper. the newspaper itself had a transcript printed right in it. general walker. i believe the article you referred to in the newspaper was separate from the other article in the paper which evolved out of the conversation. mr. liebeler. now so that there were in this particular issue of the newspaper two transcripts of a conversation between yourself and thorsten, and also a story about how oswald had allegedly fired at you, is that correct? general walker. in the newspaper i remember two separate articles. one based upon the conversation we had between us, as he understood it, and then as a separate article which i consider that the newspaper had done on its own. mr. liebeler. what was the separate article about? did that have any reference to the fact that oswald had allegedly fired at you? general walker. yes. as i remember the article, it alleged that oswald was the one that had fired at me, and that this had been known earlier, and that this had been known and that nothing was done about it. and if something had been done about it at that time, he wouldn't have been the man that--it wouldn't have been possible for him to have killed the president. mr. liebeler. well, now, did you tell anybody from this newspaper that oswald had shot at you and that this had been known prior to the time of the assassination of the president? general walker. no; i did not. i wouldn't have known it. it was much later that they began to tie oswald into me, and i don't even know it yet. mr. liebeler. and you certainly didn't know it before november ? general walker. or the morning of the d, certainly not. i was very surprised to see the article. mr. liebeler. so the best of your recollection is that you never provided them with the information? general walker. i did not. i didn't know it at the time of this conversation at all. i didn't know it until i started reading the newspaper, which would have been later than then. mr. liebeler. i think that is right, so that you only had two conversations with these people, is that correct? general walker. in connection with this incident, as i remember, there was a call back to verify something on the original conversation? i don't remember how the conversation came about. there were two telephone conversations; right. mr. liebeler. they both took place while you were down in louisiana, the d and the d of november? general walker. the first one was o'clock in the morning the d, and it woke me up. mr. liebeler. you didn't have the faintest idea that oswald had taken a shot at you and you didn't make a statement to that effect to the newspaper? general walker. no; i didn't know. mr. liebeler. you didn't make a statement to the newspaper or anybody connected with it at any other time, isn't that a fact? general walker. no. mr. liebeler. is it not a fact? general walker. i might have said that the reports over here had connected oswald with me some subsequent time. mr. liebeler. i am somewhat puzzled by the whole thing, because the newspaper in which this apparently appeared is dated november , and in fact, that information was not known to anybody that i know of until a later date than that---- general walker. much later. mr. liebeler. several days, at any rate. general walker. people began to guess it immediately. i should say guess at it. mr. liebeler. it might have been that the article was based on speculation, and it might have been the newspaper was postdated too. i think that sometimes happens. general walker. i think that paper was definitely postdated. mr. liebeler. yes; that would explain it. that is what i mean, predated. general walker. that is something else. mr. liebeler. do you have any other information that you think the commission ought to have that we haven't already talked about? general walker. yes. i think the commission should look into george de mohrenschildt, if it hasn't. mr. liebeler. what do you know about mr. de mohrenschildt? general walker. i know that my information indicates that he lived next door to the professor that was supposed to have burned up. mr. liebeler. do you have any information that would connect de mohrenschildt to the assassination of president kennedy in any way? general walker. i have the information the paper had that connected him with the oswalds. mr. liebeler. yes? general walker. of course, it is common knowledge that de mohrenschildt was associated with oswald now. mr. liebeler. other than that, do you have any information to indicate that de mohrenschildt was involved in any way with the assassination of president kennedy? general walker. not directly. general watts. do you have any indirect evidence? general walker. i am tired of them blaming the rightwing, and i have had enough of this, and it is about time that the commission cleared the city of dallas. mr. liebeler. well, now, do you have any indirect indication or evidence that would associate de mohrenschildt with the assassination of president kennedy in any way? general walker. i think it is very important that de mohrenschildt knew oswald. i think it is very interesting. my information is that de mohrenschildt went to haiti. i have nothing further to add. mr. liebeler. now, is there anything else that you think the commission ought to know that we have not already mentioned here this evening? it is now : . general walker. where am i at? mr. liebeler. i didn't mean to suggest--i just wanted to let the record show we are both working very hard. general walker. i will stay here all night. mr. liebeler. if you have anything else that you think the commission should know or that you consider to be of material importance, i want you to say so, general walker, because i think that you have--i hope you realize that the commission is trying to do the best job that it can with the situation, and that if you can be of help to us, or if anybody else could be of help to us, we want your help. general walker. that is my approach to the problem. we certainly want the truth. we want the truth to come out. general watts. off the record. (discussion off the record.) general walker. i believe it has been released to the press that, and i am not sure that it has, but some information has gotten to me, i can't recall how, but the bullet that was fired at me matched the gun of the type that oswald used on the d. that sounds rather vague, but i believe that is the way the information has come. general watts. this is off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. liebeler. general watts has indicated that he had some ammunition the investigators got from mr. duff and i request you to forward that ammunition, to deliver it to the fbi in oklahoma city and ask them to forward it to the fbi laboratory, and i will contact the fbi in washington when i get back. general walker. don't you want to clarify that where they found that in the apartment, wasn't it? general watts. yes. i will get the investigator and get the detailed source of the ammunition and turn the ammunition over to the fbi in oklahoma city. general walker. i can think of nothing else that i am not sure hasn't already come to the commission one way or another. mr. liebeler. very well. i have no more questions. i want to thank you very much for coming down and appearing before us and giving us the testimony you have. we appreciate it. general walker. thank you very much. if i can do anything further for you, we will be happy to. testimony of bernard weissman the testimony of bernard weissman was taken at : a.m., on june , , at the u.s. district courthouse, foley square, new york, n.y., by mr. melvin aron eisenberg, assistant counsel of the president's commission. bernard weissman, called as a witness, having first been duly sworn by the notary public, testified as follows: mr. eisenberg. mr. weissman, could you state your full name? mr. weissman. bernard weissman. mr. eisenberg. and your address? mr. weissman. south columbus avenue, mount vernon, n.y. mr. eisenberg. mr. weissman, did you receive a copy of the rules governing this deposition? mr. weissman. i did. mr. eisenberg. have you had an opportunity to study them? mr. weissman. i have had an opportunity to study them. mr. eisenberg. what is your occupation, mr. weissman? mr. weissman. salesman. mr. eisenberg. how long have you lived at your present address? mr. weissman. presently or totally? mr. eisenberg. presently. mr. weissman. about year. mr. eisenberg. mr. weissman, i now hand you an advertisement beginning "welcome, mr. kennedy," from the dallas morning news, friday, november , , which i will mark weissman exhibit no. . (excerpt from dallas morning news, friday, november , , marked weissman exhibit no. .) mr. weissman. might i interject at this point that since i don't have the advice of counsel, that i reserve the right to refuse to answer any question that i feel may not be in my best interests at the moment? mr. eisenberg. certainly. now, under the rules, of course, you are entitled to counsel, and if you wish we can adjourn this deposition so that you can get counsel. mr. weissman. well, i have tried to get counsel, and i frankly can't afford it, and the counsel i could afford wouldn't take the case. mr. eisenberg. i see. well, would you wish us to try to make arrangements for a court-appointed counsel? mr. weissman. this would be entirely up to you. i should think possibly that if i can see my way clear to answer your more pertinent questions--in other words, to your satisfaction--it might not be necessary. otherwise, we can do this some other time. mr. eisenberg. well, it is entirely up to you. now, we can adjourn if you want or we can continue and see whether the questions are pertinent in your mind or not. mr. weissman. i would rather continue and to avoid repeating this again, taking time out. mr. eisenberg. mr. weissman, i hand you this advertisement which i have labeled weissman exhibit no. , and ask you whether you are familiar with this advertisement? mr. weissman. yes; i am. mr. eisenberg. are you the bernard weissman whose name appears at the bottom of this advertisement, as chairman? mr. weissman. yes. mr. eisenberg. mr. weissman, could you tell us how this advertisement came to be composed? mr. weissman. it is rather simple. a group of individuals in dallas, friends of mine, got together and decided to express our feeling about the domestic and foreign policy of the kennedy administration, and we felt that picketing, anything of the nature of picketing, and so forth, wouldn't go, since the stevenson incident. we decided that the best way to get our point across would be to run an ad. mr. eisenberg. when was this decision made? mr. weissman. the decision was made approximately a week or so before kennedy's arrival in dallas. mr. eisenberg. that would be approximately november , ? mr. weissman. approximately; a few days more, a few days less, in there. mr. eisenberg. who were the individuals who participated in this decision? mr. weissman. larry schmidt, bill burley, myself, and one or two other individuals who i would rather not mention. mr. eisenberg. can you state the reasons why you don't want to mention these individuals, mr. weissman? mr. weissman. yes. as a matter of fact, it is not that i doubt your sincerity, personally, it is just that i doubt that--or it is my feeling that there are several members of the commission that might use, if i implicate any individuals or organizations other than the ones i have mentioned, that this may be used as a political weapon later this year and the coming years, and i feel that what with very comprehensive fbi reports and the report i have given to the fbi myself, and the secret service, that any loose parts that are left out right now can be pieced together if you desire to do it, from their reports, very simply and very easily. the reason i don't have the confidence i should have, not in the commission itself, but in some of the counsel to the commission, for example, norman redlich, if even percent of what i hear about the individual is true, i don't want to have this man in a position to hurt anybody who has been or is an associate of mine. mr. eisenberg. well, mr. weissman, the subject of this deposition, of course, is the advertisement, and it is crucial to that question who composed the ad and who was instrumental in its placement in the newspaper. now, you are not represented by counsel, and i don't want to press you to answer a question in the absence of representation by counsel. however, since this is the very subject with which the deposition is concerned, i think that if you don't want to answer that question we should stand adjourned until you can obtain counsel, and i will attempt to get a court-appointed counsel for you, if you can't get counsel yourself. if you wish, and we can hold a recess while you think it over. mr. weissman. call a recess for a few minutes. (recess.) mr. weissman. what is your opinion here now? let me put it to you that way. mr. eisenberg. i think that if there is any question in your mind at all as to what questions you should answer, that you should get a lawyer. mr. weissman. this is what i am going to do. i am going to read you, it looks like about three or four pages, typewritten pages, i will read it into the record. it will tell the story why i came to dallas, exactly what i and several of my associates wished to accomplish. i will name them where necessary and when i am finished i will let this stand as my complete testimony, period, finis, and if at any other time the commission wants to talk with me, they will have to subpena me and at that time--i want to get it over once and for all. i am going to tell my story now as to why i did things i have done, how it came about, how the ad happened to fit into this pattern, and it will be all very simple and logical. mr. eisenberg. go ahead. you understand that when i say to go ahead i don't mean that we will not be asking further questions, but you are certainly welcome to put this in. mr. weissman. i understand. our preparation to come to dallas was made approximately---- mr. eisenberg. excuse me second, mr. weissman. i want you to be very sure that before you enter this statement in the record you shouldn't consult an attorney? (witness indicates.) mr. eisenberg. you are gesturing "no"? mr. weissman. i am gesturing "no"; that is right. about years ago in munich, germany, while i was in the service, i and several friends joined or formed a conservative political organization, dedicated to a conservative philosophy, and i am going to read what you might call the constitution or the aims of that organization. this was originally written by larry schmidt, who originally founded the organization, which is known as cusa, or conservatism, u.s.a., and this particular copy was prepared for the recruitment of new members and what was expected of them. it also applies to the members of what we call ourselves, the council. the council originally consisted of myself, of larry schmidt, of bill burley, of a larry jones, who is no longer associated in any way with us, of norman baker, who is no longer associated in any way with us, james mosley, who is no longer associated in any way with us. how was cusa organized? cusa, with its headquarters in dallas, no. louis street, is broken down into two branches. the stateside branch, which was headed by larry schmidt, and the overseas branch, which was headed by myself. although both presently function separately from each other, they both have the same organization, etc. on august , , the overseas branch will discontinue being a separate branch and will become completely subsidiary to the main stateside branch. cusa is set up similar to the ford motor co. and its dependent, the ford foundation. ford motor co. of cusa is american businesses, inc. or ambus. ambus will be a private profitmaking corporation which finances its own ford foundation, which is conservatism, usa, a nonprofit, nonpartisan conservative political foundation with the goals outlined above. the owners of ambus are the same as the five partners who are the board chairmen of cusa, the partners i mentioned before. all positions in ambus and cusa are appointed by the etc or the executive in the council, which again are the five members of that which has been mentioned. every member of cusa and ambus who works for either or both of ambus and cusa full time shall be paid at a salary at least equivalent to that paid a man in a similar position in industry or politics. in most cases ambus and cusa will pay its people higher salaries. cusa is broken down into three divisions: the political analysis division, the recruitment and fund solicitation division, and the foreign affairs division. ambus is divided into two divisions: the business management division and the public relations division. ambus' two divisions fully support the activities of cusa. each division has its own organizational setup and subsidiary sections and officers to carry out its functions. for a copy of this, ask the chief of your particular branch--that is pertaining to a new member. he will be happy to show it to you. for detailed information on the operations of any particular division, ask the chief of the division in question. geographically cusa is broken down into six regions. these are the eastern, northern, southern, southwestern, midwestern, and western regions. each region has several states under its jurisdiction. the headquarters of each region are as follows: eastern, new york city; northern, chicago; southern, atlanta; southwestern, dallas; midwestern, wichita; western, los angeles. these regional headquarters come directly under cusa's dallas home headquarters. each state within the region also has its cusa headquarters. in each case the headquarters is located in the capital of each state. the state headquarters come directly under the regional headquarters in which they are located. each state in turn is broken down into districts with several counties comprising a district. most states are broken down into four or five districts. these district headquarters come directly under the state headquarters and the breakdowns go along as i have mentioned, and it gets smaller and smaller as the areas get smaller. both ambus and cusa will have staffs in each of the regional state district and city headquarters. these will be full-time salaried employees. how does cusa expect to gain its goals? cusa is convinced it can induce all other conservative organizations to join it, especially if cusa has induced a large number, that more and more will want to jump on its bandwagon. for those organizations that refuse to join, cusa will bring pressures to bear to end their resistance. cusa will also work closely with conservatives in the republican and democratic parties. among cusa's members are some of the finest salesmen around, men who know how to convince, how to sell, how to persuade: cusa intends to work toward monopolization of the money available for rightwing organizations, thus forcing any organizations to come into the cusa fold. cusa will use any method, so long as it is legal and honorable, to attain its goal. a timetable has been set up to guide cusa's actions, when each project has to be completed, and places these projects in proper timetable sequence. what will happen to cusa after it reaches its goals? cusa shall continue to aid the conservative cause and keep our government conservative. so long as there is a u.s.a. there shall be a cusa. can i make a career of cusa? most definitely. cusa and ambus are big business. think of cusa as being the same as a political party like the democratic or republican. even if it isn't actually a third party, it shall function as one. however, if you desire and have the necessary qualifications, cusa will even run an individual for a political office if it feels you can win. ambus needs good business minds and cusa needs aggressive political minds. above all, cusa-ambus needs salesmen, public speakers, writers, debaters, analysts. men who think like men of action and act like men of thought. but cusa also needs background men, men willing to stay out of the public eye and work quietly to do the planning, thinking, creating, formalizing, and other things in a great cause. cusa-ambus has established regular wage scales along the line of the civil service, gs- to gs- . just what is a conservative, anyway? a conservative is a person who looks at a man or a woman as an individual and respects him or her as a unique human being rather than just a face in the crowd; a member of the mass who believes in individual initiative above collective charity, yet accepts charity where the individual cannot provide for himself; who believes the government should be supported by the people, not the people supported by the government; who believes government should be restricted to those areas of concern outlined in the constitution of the united states of america, leaving the citizen free to pursue life, liberty and happiness without the overburdens of excessive taxation that restrict such pursuits; who believes that every effort should be made by individuals to provide for themselves first and when that can't be done, help by local, state, or private charitable organizations rather than by federal government aid comprised of general taxation; who believes that the federal government should not compete with private enterprise or interfere with the rights of the states as outlined in the constitution; who believes that the best government is the government which governs least; who believes that the best interests of the american people should be served by its government first before the peoples of other countries, yet believes we americans must help the needy peoples of other countries; who believes the best interests of the u.s.a. should first be served by our federal government before the needs of other nations are looked into, yet that we should aid needy nations where aid is justified and deserved, and in the best interests of our country; who believes that the american form of republican government, a government of the people, for the people, by the people, with rule by law and constitution, is the only way of government and way of life for americans; who believes that although a government and system of law and rule and economics isn't perfect, it is the best one ever attempted by mankind in its long history; who believes that private enterprise and capitalism is the whole basis of our way of life and the reason of our way of life--and the reason our way of life is so richly endowed; who believes that communism is the greatest threat to the existence and freedom of america and must be completely defeated; who believes there can be no peace without victory over communism; who believes that the true revolutionary political system and the true revolution of mankind is the american democracy and democratic and political system; that the enslavement of man embodied in communism is as old as mankind itself, and therefore there is nothing revolutionary about it, even though it has a modern name and foundation and is certainly no good, indeed fatal, to mankind. is cusa identified with any other organization or society? cusa is associated with no organization or group, be it political, economic, social, fraternal, or religious. cusa is committed to none, either. i can interject a footnote of my own at this point. at council sessions we decided to use whatever vehicles were necessary in the way of other organizations to get cusa off the ground and at the same time keep the name cusa secret among ourselves, as it was our organization, you might say; no one of the other organizations that we became involved with knew anything about the existence of cusa or what we had planned to do with it. they did not know, the individuals that we were concerned with did not know, that in many cases, as a matter of fact, we were using them merely as a vehicle to further the interest of cusa. just who does cusa hope to elect president? i want to reiterate that this was prepared in late or very early . cusa considers senator barry goldwater (republican, arizona) as mr. conservative, u.s.a., and wholeheartedly endorses him for the presidency, although cusa is not committed to mr. goldwater in any way. however, it is felt that he is by far the most outstanding conservative politician and spokesman in the country. how does cusa feel about the so-called radical rightwing? cusa has proof that many so-called radical organizations are not really radical or at least as radical as the enemies or opposition of these organizations would have the public believe. cusa loathes extremism of the right, typified by the american nazi party, as much as it does the extremism of the left, exemplified by the communist party in the u.s.a. cusa does not believe, however, that an american can be too radical or extreme in his love or patriotism for his country. cusa endorses americanism, love of country, and patriotism, even if it does not always agree with what some citizens believe is wrong with our country, who is to blame for our faults and our solution to our problems. cusa has faith in and believes in many rightwing organizations and their endeavors, although it does not always agree with everything they say or do, the words or actions of their leaders. on the other hand, cusa does not condemn a patriot who, in the heat of anger or frustration, says things which are irresponsible and not honestly meant. on the other hand, cusa cannot subscribe to continued irresponsibility on the part of organizations, its leaders or membership. this is one reason, for example, recently in dallas, we decided not to become, at least as far as we knew, to become involved with anybody associated or doing business with general walker, as an example. we made it a point to try to stay clear of that. how does cusa feel about communism? cusa intends to do everything it can to destroy communism. cusa is against any philosophy, any organization, any group, any individual which threatens the freedom, way of life, or congressional government of the united states. cusa is against any tyranny, whatever its skin or title; against anything indecent, unlawful, or harmful to man. can anyone join cusa? any citizen of the united states who believes in what cusa is trying to do and who is not a demagog or dishonest, may join cusa regardless of race, religion, creed, or ethnic origin. cusa does not believe that patriotism is contingent upon skin, color, or religion or family background. let me say again that this was prepared in , and in its essence has been followed through to the--up until the d of november , and this, i think, would give some reasons or give you several answers as to why the ad was placed, why it read as it did. mr. eisenberg. that completes the statement? mr. weissman. that completes my statement. mr. eisenberg. ok; then we will stand adjourned. testimony of warren allen reynolds the testimony of warren allen reynolds was taken at : p.m., on july , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. liebeler. would you rise and raise your right hand? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. reynolds. i do. mr. liebeler. please sit down. my name is wesley j. liebeler. i am an attorney on the staff of the president's commission to investigate the assassination of president kennedy. i have been authorized to take your testimony by the commission pursuant to authority granted to it by president johnson's executive order no. , dated november , , and joint resolution of congress no. . under the rules of procedure governing the taking of testimony, you are entitled to have an attorney present at this hearing. you are also entitled to days' notice for the hearing, and you are entitled to exercise whatever rights and privileges, as far as not answering questions are concerned, as are afforded to you under the constitution and laws of the united states. i assume that you do not wish to have an attorney present, since you don't have one here. most of the witnesses do not have. mr. reynolds. that's right. mr. liebeler. would you state your full name for the record, please? mr. reynolds. warren allen reynolds. mr. liebeler. what is your address? mr. reynolds. mosswood. mr. liebeler. here in dallas? mr. reynolds. dallas. mr. liebeler. when were you born, mr. reynolds? mr. reynolds. june , . mr. liebeler. are you employed here in dallas? mr. reynolds. yes; reynolds motor co. mr. liebeler. what kind of company is that? mr. reynolds. it is a used-car lot. mr. liebeler. it is operated by you and by your brother; is that correct? mr. reynolds. it is operated by my brother, and i am an employee there. mr. liebeler. you are not an owner of the corporation? mr. reynolds. no, sir. mr. liebeler. you are employed by your brother? mr. reynolds. yes. mr. liebeler. would you give us briefly what your educational background is? mr. reynolds. high school. mr. liebeler. did you graduate from high school here in dallas? mr. reynolds. yes. mr. liebeler. which school? mr. reynolds. forest avenue high school. mr. liebeler. where is this reynolds motor co. located? mr. reynolds. east jefferson. mr. liebeler. how far is that from the corner of th and patton? mr. reynolds. one block. mr. liebeler. were you there at the used-car lot on november , ? mr. reynolds. yes. mr. liebeler. were you there at about, say, after the hour of o'clock noon in the afternoon? mr. reynolds. yes. mr. liebeler. tell us what you saw; will you, please? mr. reynolds. ok; our office is up high where i can have a pretty good view of what was going on. i heard the shots and, when i heard the shots, i went out on this front porch which is, like i say, high, and i saw this man coming down the street with the gun in his hand, swinging it just like he was running. he turned the corner of patton and jefferson, going west, and put the gun in his pants and took off, walking. mr. liebeler. how many shots did you hear? mr. reynolds. i really have no idea, to be honest with you. i would say four or five or six. i just would have no idea. i heard one, and then i heard a succession of some more, and i didn't see the officer get shot. mr. liebeler. did you see this man's face that had the gun in his hand? mr. reynolds. very good. mr. liebeler. subsequent to that time, you were questioned by the dallas police department, were you not? mr. reynolds. no. mr. liebeler. the dallas police department never talked to you about the man that you saw going down the street? mr. reynolds. now, they talked to me much later, you mean? mr. liebeler. ok; let me put it this way: when is the first time that anybody from any law-enforcement agency, and i mean by that, the fbi, secret service, dallas police department, dallas county sheriff's office; you pick it. when is the first time that they ever talked to you? mr. reynolds. january . mr. liebeler. that is the first time they ever talked to you about what you saw on that day? mr. reynolds. that's right. mr. liebeler. so you never in any way identified this man in the police department or any other authority, either in november or in december of ; is that correct? mr. reynolds. no; i sure didn't. mr. liebeler. so it can be in no way said that you "fingered" the man who was running down the street, and identified him as the man who was going around and putting the gun in his pocket? mr. reynolds. it can be said i didn't talk to the authorities. mr. liebeler. did you say anything about it to anybody else? mr. reynolds. i did. mr. liebeler. were you able to identify this man in your own mind? mr. reynolds. yes. mr. liebeler. you did identify him as lee harvey oswald in your own mind? mr. reynolds. yes. mr. liebeler. you had no question about it? mr. reynolds. no. mr. liebeler. let me show you some pictures that we have here. i show you a picture that has been marked garner exhibit no. and ask you if that is the man that you saw going down the street on the d of november as you have already told us. mr. reynolds. yes. mr. liebeler. you later identified that man as lee harvey oswald? mr. reynolds. in my mind. mr. liebeler. your mind, that is what i mean. mr. reynolds. yes. mr. liebeler. when you saw his picture in the newspaper and on television? is that right? mr. reynolds. yes; unless you have somebody that looks an awful lot like him there. mr. liebeler. i show you an exhibit that has been marked pizzo exhibit no. -c and ask you if that is the same man, in your opinion? mr. reynolds. yes. mr. liebeler. you were in no way, if i understand it correctly then, properly identified as anyone who had told the authorities that this man that was going down the street was the same man as lee harvey oswald, is that correct? mr. reynolds. well, yes and no. when it happened, and after i seen--and you probably know what i did--after i saw the man on the corner of patton and jefferson, i followed him up the street behind the service station and lost him. i went back there and looked up and down the alley and didn't see him, and looked through the cars and still didn't see him. then the police got there, and they took my name. while they were taking my name, some television camera got me, and i was on television, i am sure nationwide. then some man that i worked with wanted to be big time, i guess, so he called some radio station and told them what i had done, and they recorded that and ran it over and over and over again over the radio station. and other than that, no. mr. liebeler. well, what was it that they said you had done? all you had done was try to follow this man and he got away from you? mr. reynolds. and he got away. mr. liebeler. then you went back and you looked around for him around the car lot in the area and you weren't able to find him? mr. reynolds. i looked through the parking lot for him after. see, when he went behind the service station, i was right across the street, and when he ducked behind, i ran across the street and asked this man which way he went, and they told me the man had gone to the back. and i ran back there and looked up and down the alley right then and didn't see him, and i looked under the cars, and i assumed that he was still hiding there. mr. liebeler. in the parking lot? mr. reynolds. even to this day i assume that he was. mr. liebeler. where was this parking lot located now? mr. reynolds. it would be at the back of the texaco station that is on the corner of crawford and jefferson where they found his coat. mr. liebeler. they found his coat in the parking lot? mr. reynolds. they found his coat there. mr. liebeler. so that he had apparently gone through the parking lot? mr. reynolds. oh, yes. mr. liebeler. and gone down the alley or something back to jefferson street? mr. reynolds. yes. when the police got there, and they were all there, i was trying to assure them that he was still there close. this was all a bunch of confusion. they didn't know what was going on. and they got word that he was down at a library which was about blocks down the street on the opposite side of the street. mr. liebeler. down jefferson? mr. reynolds. down jefferson. and every one of them left to go there. so when they left, well, i did too, and i didn't know this man had shot a policeman. i wouldn't probably be near as brave if i had known that. the next time, i guarantee, i won't be as brave. mr. liebeler. no; i can't say that i blame you, although we don't know there is any connection. but we would certainly like to find it, if there is. mr. reynolds. there is no connection that you can prove now. mr. liebeler. let's come to that a little bit at a time. mr. reynolds. okay. mr. liebeler. when you were on television, what was shown is that you were talking to the policeman? mr. reynolds. they were taking my name. no name was shown, was mentioned. mr. liebeler. they were just taking down your name? mr. reynolds. just my name. mr. liebeler. when it was told on the radio about your involvement in it, was it also made clear that you had not, in fact, directed--let me ask the question this way. was it ever stated either on the television or the radio that you had directed the police to the texas theatre? mr. reynolds. not the direction. in the general direction, but not to the theatre. mr. liebeler. in fact, you were looking for this man who later turned out to be oswald, in this parking lot which was some distance from the texas theatre at that point? mr. reynolds. yes. mr. liebeler. and you never saw oswald continue on down the street--on down jefferson or go in the texas theatre, and you never told the police that he had gone in that direction, did you? mr. reynolds. i told the police he was going in that direction. mr. liebeler. he was going--you told the police he went into the parking lot, or what did you tell him? mr. reynolds. that he was going west. i told them that he was going west, and i had assumed that he just cut through the parking lot and kept going the general direction he was going in. mr. liebeler. but he hadn't gotten to jefferson by the time you had seen him? mr. reynolds. that's right. he was about almost half a block before he got to jefferson. mr. liebeler. but he was heading toward jefferson? mr. reynolds. yes; he was heading toward jefferson. mr. liebeler. you never saw him after he got to jefferson? mr. reynolds. yes. when he got to jefferson, that is when i followed him. mr. liebeler. and he went which way? mr. reynolds. went down jefferson, and then he went behind the station, and that is when i lost him. mr. liebeler. he went around behind the station, and there was a parking lot back there, is that right? mr. reynolds. that's right. mr. liebeler. you went back in the parking lot and you were looking for him there, but you never saw him again after he ducked off jefferson into the parking lot? mr. reynolds. just on television. mr. liebeler. then according to the information that i have, on january , , you were shot in the head by a bullet from a caliber rifle, is that correct? mr. reynolds. yes; right there [pointing to right temple]. mr. liebeler. on the right side of your head? mr. reynolds. yes; and it went to here [pointing to left ear]. mr. liebeler. would you tell us the circumstances in which that happened? mr. reynolds. i know this man was waiting for - / hours in a basement where i work. mr. liebeler. in a car lot? mr. reynolds. in a car lot. mr. liebeler. at the car lot? mr. reynolds. at the car lot, the johnny reynolds co. and when i went down to turn off the lights in this basement where he had taken the light globe out of the room, i went in there more or less in the dark to turn off the light. it is a switchboard, and when i walked up to it and turned two switches, this man couldn't hardly have been over a foot from me with the rifle, and shot me. when he shot me, i ran upstairs. i went around to the right about feet and got this towel to, of course, stop the blood, and when i turned around to go call the police, i had assumed all the time that i had been electrocuted for some silly reason, never dreaming i had been shot. but when i saw the man run off, i figured right then i must have been shot, so i ran on in and called the police. mr. liebeler. when did you see the man run off? mr. reynolds. when i ran upstairs and ran around to the right to get this towel, and he came up out of the basement. i saw him and two more people saw him. mr. liebeler. you then got the towel. did you call the police? mr. reynolds. i was able to call the police. then i laid down just for a few minutes, and the ambulance got there and carried me to the hospital, and by some miracle, i survived, very much a miracle. the police got the call at : p.m. in the evening of january . mr. liebeler. now were you able to identify the individual who ran up out of the basement? mr. reynolds. no. mr. liebeler. do you have any idea who it was? mr. reynolds. no. mr. liebeler. what kind of fellow did he look like? did you get a physical description of him? mr. reynolds. no; it was just a blur to me. it was just a blur, but the people that saw him said he was around foot , weight around or pounds, and was either spanish or cuban or indian or something like that; not negro. mr. liebeler. he was not a negro, but he was of a foreign extraction or foreign appearing, or dark colored? mr. reynolds. yes; dark colored, the way they described him. he had a rifle. mr. liebeler. do you have any idea as to why somebody might have wanted to take a shot at you, why did they? mr. reynolds. i have no proof. i would say it would be fair to think that somebody shot me on account of they thought i knew something or had some connection with lee oswald. it was definitely not people that i would know of, and it hadn't been business. i am sure it wasn't in business form. mr. liebeler. what did you do in the car lot? are you engaged actually in selling and trading automobiles? mr. reynolds. yes; generally everything. mr. liebeler. you can't think of any reason why one of your customers wanted to take a shot at you? mr. reynolds. no. mr. liebeler. is there anybody else around the company that might have been having trouble with anybody else that maybe you got shot by mistake, or something like that? is that possible? mr. reynolds. we ruled that out. mr. liebeler. you considered that possibility? mr. reynolds. i have considered everything. mr. liebeler. did the police conduct an investigation of this? mr. reynolds. yes. mr. liebeler. of this shooting? mr. reynolds. yes. mr. liebeler. in fact, they came out with a suspect, didn't they? mr. reynolds. they came out with one, yes. mr. liebeler. did you know that individual before he was picked up in connection with this investigation? mr. reynolds. yes. mr. liebeler. how long had you know him? mr. reynolds. i had known him for about or years. mr. liebeler. was he a friend of yours? mr. reynolds. no. mr. liebeler. how did you come to know him? mr. reynolds. just in business. our business with him was bad business. mr. liebeler. in what sense? mr. reynolds. well, he was a troublemaker. but at no time did i think he was the one that shot me. mr. liebeler. how did you form an opinion on the question of whether this was the man who shot you? in fact, we are talking about a man by the name of darrell wayne garner. mr. reynolds. that was just my personal opinion. mr. liebeler. you weren't able to see the man who shot you to say whether it was garner or whether it wasn't? mr. reynolds. no; that's right. mr. liebeler. isn't it a fact that garner had been in the car lot on january , , trying to sell you an automobile, particularly a oldsmobile for which he didn't have a title? mr. reynolds. not that i know of. mr. liebeler. have you discussed this with your brother? mr. reynolds. yes. mr. liebeler. your brother is johnny reynolds? mr. reynolds. yes. mr. liebeler. he lives at west five mile parkway, is that correct? mr. reynolds. that's right. mr. liebeler. would it surprise you to know that on january he apparently told the dallas police department that garner had been in the carlot on january and tried to trade a oldsmobile for which he did not have a title, and became extremely upset when he, johnny reynolds, wouldn't purchase the automobile from garner? mr. reynolds. i had to keep in mind that it is possible that that had happened and i just didn't, i mean i have been through an awful lot these months, and it is possible that i have just missed it, but i would say i would be a little bit surprised. mr. liebeler. what kind of person is garner? mr. reynolds. well, to describe him as best i can, i heard that his mother had $ hidden one night and he wanted it and she wouldn't tell him where it was, and he held a knife to her throat threatening to kill her unless she did. he is just a complete troublemaker. mr. liebeler. do you know where he lives? mr. reynolds. no; i heard he was in las vegas. in fact, i parked my car at his father-in-law's. he runs a little parking lot right there down the street, and it so happened i pulled into that parking lot when i came here. mr. liebeler. but you haven't seen him around recently? you don't know where he is? mr. reynolds. no. mr. liebeler. in any event, garner was released from the dallas police department after they conducted an investigation? mr. reynolds. yes. mr. liebeler. into the possibility he might have been involved in the shooting of you? mr. reynolds. yes. mr. liebeler. now, do you have any basis for your belief that the shot at you was somehow connected with the assassination, other than pure speculation or surmise on your part? mr. reynolds. no. mr. liebeler. do you have any idea as to who it might be other than the fact, as you have previously explained before, it might be that since your were associated in some way with oswald's apprehension in the texas theatre, that somebody wanted to get you for that? mr. reynolds. a lot of people thought that i followed him all the way to the texas theatre and pointed him out in the theatre. a lot of people, just rumors, thought that, and a lot of people still think it. mr. liebeler. but in fact, there isn't any fact that you can point to or tell me about that would connect up the assassination in any way with the shooting of you on january ? mr. reynolds. i can't think of anything that could be a fact unless we just found the man. mr. liebeler. for the purpose of our investigation, i mean if there were any connection between your shooting on january and oswald's arrest for the assassination, we want to know about it. that is perfectly clear, is it not? mr. reynolds. yes. mr. liebeler. i am asking you if you have any facts that would tie it up. mr. reynolds. i have no facts. i just have my own beliefs. mr. liebeler. and you do believe that there is some relation, do you? mr. reynolds. yes. mr. liebeler. do you know nancy j. mooney? mr. reynolds. no. mr. liebeler. have you ever heard of her? mr. reynolds. yes. mr. liebeler. what have you heard? mr. reynolds. i heard that she was with garner the night that i got shot. i heard that she took a lie detector test that helped free him. i heard that a few days later she was caught fighting and they put her in jail, and she hung herself. i heard that she formerly worked for jack ruby as a stripper. mr. liebeler. do you know who told you that? mr. reynolds. i read it in bob considine's article. mr. liebeler. is that the only source of your information concerning nancy j. mooney? mr. reynolds. the police told me that she had hung herself and that she was the one that was with garner. everybody calls him "dago." mr. liebeler. did the police department tell you that she had worked for jack ruby? mr. reynolds. no. mr. liebeler. the only source of information that you have for that is the article that bob considine wrote about this whole thing? mr. reynolds. that's right. mr. liebeler. have you heard anything about nancy j. mooney, or do you know anything about her other than that which you read in bob considine's newspaper article? mr. reynolds. no; i don't. well, i know one thing, she was , and her age, that is just what i have heard. mr. liebeler. you have heard that? mr. reynolds. from the police department. mr. liebeler. did you know that she also used the name betty macdonald? mr. reynolds. no; i didn't know that. mr. liebeler. my information is also that she is , not . mr. reynolds. twenty-four? mr. liebeler. did you ever hear that she tried to commit suicide prior to the time she hung herself in the dallas police station? mr. reynolds. no. mr. liebeler. or that she had four children that had been taken away from her because of her conduct? mr. reynolds. i see nothing in that whole story that considine wrote that would really come to me--be true. i mean, it is true in one sense, and it is fair story, but i don't see any connection there, let's say. mr. liebeler. considine was trying to create an impression that some girl had worked for jack ruby and was connected with garner, and hung herself in the police department? mr. reynolds. yes. mr. liebeler. do you believe there is any connection in that respect? mr. reynolds. no; i don't. mr. liebeler. have you considered, when you thought about this problem, that there are other people that actually went down to the police station and viewed oswald in lineups, and have testified in washington before this commission, and received international publicity in connection with the identification of oswald as the murderer of tippit and that so far at any rate they have not been attacked in any way such as you were? mr. reynolds. yes; i have. mr. liebeler. can you suggest to me why you were picked out to be shot for this reason and not these other people? mr. reynolds. the ones that i know, i am the only aggressor in the whole bunch. i am the only one that actually did something more than just look. i actually did something. mr. liebeler. but that is the only distinction you can see between yourself and those other people? mr. reynolds. that's right. mr. liebeler. have you discussed this question of the possible relationship between your shooting and the assassination, with general walker? mr. reynolds. yes; i have. mr. liebeler. what did you say to him and what did he say to you about this matter, if you remember. mr. reynolds. oh, i said to him basically the same thing that i have said to you, and he said it could be and he thinks that it's strange that i was shot. i think anybody would think it strange. but of course, if you have ever talked to him, he wouldn't say yes or no. mr. liebeler. does general walker know of any facts, so far as you know, that would relate your shooting to the assassination? mr. reynolds. no. mr. liebeler. he has never expressed a firm opinion to you one way or the other as to whether there was in fact, any connection between the two, has he? mr. reynolds. let me just let him answer that when he talks to you. mr. liebeler. did you know that he is going to talk to us? mr. reynolds. yes; i do. mr. liebeler. how do you know that? mr. reynolds. i talked to him. mr. liebeler. talked to him since we have invited him to come over and talk to us? mr. reynolds. yes. mr. liebeler. when is the last time you talked to general walker? mr. reynolds. around noon today. mr. liebeler. talked to him on the telephone? or in person? mr. reynolds. telephone; yes. mr. liebeler. did you discuss with him your appearance before the commission here? mr. reynolds. yes. mr. liebeler. would you tell us the general subject of your conversation? mr. reynolds. i just don't want to answer that, really. mr. liebeler. preceding your conversation at noon today, when was the last time you talked to him before that, do you remember, approximately? mr. reynolds. about a week ago. maybe weeks. mr. liebeler. how many times have you talked to him about this question altogether? mr. reynolds. i have no idea; five or six. mr. liebeler. now, in fact, general walker sent a telegram to the commission suggesting that we take your testimony, did he not? mr. reynolds. yes. mr. liebeler. you knew that he did? did he tell you that? mr. reynolds. yes. may i go off the record? mr. liebeler. sure. i think i have asked you all the questions i can think of, mr. reynolds, at this point. but i do want to say this to you. if you can think of anything else that you want the commission to know in connection with this whole thing, i want you to feel free to say what it is right now. or if you think there are any other facts that relate to this that we haven't brought out. mr. reynolds. i don't know of any. i think it should be investigated what happened to me. mr. liebeler. the dallas police department did conduct an investigation of the attack on you. mr. reynolds. but their investigation didn't go too much past garner. i mean they questioned a lot of people, but not anything of any importance. they have a little old bullet. i believe that is the only clue that they have. mr. liebeler. if you can't think of anything else that you think we ought to know and i haven't already asked you about, we can terminate the deposition at this point. mr. reynolds. i would like to say something that might be important. about weeks after i got out of the hospital, which would be around the th of february, my little -year-old daughter--somebody tried to pick her up, tried to get her in a car. now, again, whether that has any connection or not, i don't know, but it did happen, and it never had happened before nor after. but they even offered her money. she was smart enough to run and get away. mr. liebeler. have you seen any other indication that anybody has been following you or that anybody is watching you or anything like that? mr. reynolds. someone unscrewed my light globe one night on the front porch of my house, and someone definitely did it. whether it was a jokester or kid, but i have a lamp over the light. they had to take three screws loose to get to my light globe. they took those off and unscrewed my light, and that is for sure. now, that was around the th of february, too. mr. liebeler. that was after you had gotten out of the hospital? mr. reynolds. yes. mr. liebeler. is there anything else that would lead you to think anybody has been looking for you or looking after you? mr. reynolds. no. mr. liebeler. thank you very much, mr. reynolds. testimony of priscilla mary post johnson the testimony of priscilla mary post johnson, was taken at : a.m., on july , , at maryland avenue ne., washington, d.c., by messrs. w. david slawson and richard m. mosk, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. slawson. i will swear you in if you will rise? do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? miss johnson. i do. mr. slawson. miss johnson, would you please state your full name and address? miss johnson. my full name is priscilla mary post johnson, brattle street, cambridge, mass. mr. slawson. and would you state for the record your occupation or activities now and also what they were in when you saw lee harvey oswald? miss johnson. in i was a moscow correspondent for the north american newspaper alliance, and now i am a freelance writer on soviet affairs. mr. slawson. have you been given a copy of the executive order and the joint resolution authorizing the creation of this commission? miss johnson. i have. mr. slawson. and an opportunity to read them? miss johnson. i have. mr. slawson. miss johnson has been asked to testify this morning because she in the course of her duties as a newspaper correspondent in interviewed lee harvey oswald on at least one occasion while he was in moscow, just after he had announced to the american embassy that he wanted to renounce his american citizenship and become a soviet citizen. she is going to describe to the best of her recollection, with the help of her notes taken at the time, what went on during that interview. miss johnson, first i think we will put in as exhibits the various notes you have taken and articles you have written since that time, about your interview with mr. oswald. i present you a copy, marked johnson exhibit no. , of the notes you have said were taken at that time, and i wonder if you would acknowledge that that is a true copy. miss johnson. yes; it is. (priscilla mary post johnson exhibit no. was marked for identification.) mr. slawson. i present this as exhibit no. , introduce it in evidence as exhibit no. . (priscilla mary post johnson exhibit no. was received in evidence.) mr. slawson. miss johnson, i have marked this as exhibit no. . (priscilla mary post johnson exhibit no. was marked for identification.) mr. slawson. it purports to be a true copy of the article you wrote of your interview with mr. oswald, and submitted on november , . miss johnson. that is right. i submitted it to the soviet censor on november . mr. slawson. i submit this in evidence and mark it as exhibit no. . (priscilla mary post johnson exhibit no. was received in evidence.) mr. mosk. miss johnson, was anything censored? miss johnson. no. it would show on that. nothing was censored. mr. slawson. i now show you a document marked exhibit no. which purports to be a true copy of an article you wrote for the boston globe. miss johnson. i wrote it for the north american newspaper alliance. that just happens to be one place that it appeared. it probably appeared in other places too. (priscilla mary post johnson exhibit no. was marked for identification.) mr. slawson. then i will say your article---- miss johnson. for the north american newspaper alliance. mr. slawson. as it appeared in the---- miss johnson. as it appeared in the boston globe. mr. slawson. i believe that was on november , ? miss johnson. sunday. november . it was filed on november . mr. slawson. except for possible deletions of your complete article as it was submitted, is that a true copy of your article? miss johnson. a true copy of my article. mr. slawson. i present this in evidence as exhibit no. . (priscilla mary post johnson exhibit no. was received in evidence.) mr. slawson. i now have a document marked exhibit no. which is an article from the--a copy of an article from the christian science monitor of november , . (priscilla mary post johnson exhibit no. was marked for identification.) miss johnson. the interview was given november , and that is a true copy of the interview as published in the monitor. mr. slawson. for the record, miss johnson, that is an interview of you by a correspondent working for the christian science monitor; is that correct? miss johnson. yes. mr. slawson. i then introduce it in evidence as exhibit no. . (priscilla mary post johnson exhibit no. was received in evidence.) mr. slawson. miss johnson, i have here what purports to be a true copy of a statement you gave to a representative of the u.s. department of state on december , , and it has been marked priscilla johnson exhibit no. . (priscilla mary post johnson exhibit no. was marked for identification.) miss johnson. yes; that is okay. that is a copy. mr. slawson. i then introduce in evidence this exhibit no. . (priscilla mary post johnson exhibit no. was received in evidence.) mr. slawson. finally, i have here a document marked priscilla johnson exhibit no. , which purports to be a true copy of an article written by you as published in harper's magazine. miss johnson. april . mr. slawson. right; in the april issue. (priscilla mary post johnson exhibit no. was marked for identification.) miss johnson. yes. mr. slawson. that is a true copy? miss johnson. yes. mr. slawson. i introduce as evidence, present this as exhibit no. . (priscilla mary post johnson exhibit no. was received in evidence.) mr. slawson. miss johnson, to begin the deposition, i would like you to state, with the help of your notes or articles at any time you want to refer to them, exactly when and where and how many times you saw lee harvey oswald. miss johnson. may i have the calendar. i saw him, lee harvey oswald, on two occasions. first of all i had been at the american embassy in moscow, and mr. mcvickar, the consul, had told me that a would-be defector was staying at my hotel, that he had shown a reluctance to talk with officials of the embassy or with other correspondents, but knowing my interest in kind of human interest stories, he thought that i might want to see this man. this was on an afternoon in november, and i think it must have been monday, november , , that mr. mcvickar advised me to see mr. oswald. so i stopped by mr. oswald's room, which was the floor below my own room in the metropole hotel. he lived on the second floor. i asked him for an interview, and he agreed to come to my room in the hotel that evening at an hour he named. i forgot what hour it was-- or . so the second occasion on which i saw him was when he actually came that evening, and he stayed until the early hours of the morning, although i don't remember what hour. so far as i know, those were the only two occasions on which i saw him. mr. slawson. he was in the same hotel you were staying in? miss johnson. yes. could i interpolate a question here? mr. slawson. certainly. miss johnson. maybe it is out of line, but do you know whether he did stay at that hotel the rest of the time or did he go and leave? you see when i went back they had said he left. had he actually gone to another hotel or did he remain in that hotel all the time? mr. slawson. i believe that he was staying in the hotel metropole at the time you saw him, and i think he stayed there---- miss johnson. the rest of the time? mr. slawson. the rest of the time. he had previously been in, i think, the hotel berlin, but he had moved to the metropole before you saw him. miss johnson. and they did move him out of the berlin? mr. slawson. that is right. miss johnson. he stayed in the metropole? mr. slawson. stayed in the metropole. miss johnson. so i was informed incorrectly when i was told he had gone by the people at the hotel? mr. slawson. do you remember when you were informed that he had gone? miss johnson. yes. i think that it was thursday, the th. mr. slawson. could you state some of the details of that, how that came about that you were so informed? miss johnson. sure. well, i wrote the story about him. i must have filed it on the th, but i don't think it was in connection with the story but with rather the fact that i had been told by him that he thought he would leave the hotel at the end of the week. so as soon as i had written the story and wasn't too busy in other ways, i went to the hotel. the woman who sat on his floor, the second floor, and i think it was the th, a thursday, i asked if mr. oswald was there, because i wanted to catch him before he left. i expected he would leave the th. and because i kind of wanted to keep in contact with him, for his sake. and the woman who was sitting on the second floor--i don't know what you call her--who gave the keys out, just threw up her hands and said, "he is gone." so i asked her when he had gone, and she said she didn't know. so i assumed i had been informed correctly, and didn't try to get in touch with him again. and he had told me that he would let me know before he left for good, and he didn't either. mr. slawson. let us call a recess for a minute here, so that i can look for some records on oswald's stay at the hotel metropole. (discussion off the record.) mr. slawson. miss johnson, in connection with your statement that you had returned to see oswald and were told by a woman employee of the hotel on the second floor that he had left at a time which she did not know, i have here a copy of a letter oswald wrote his brother robert oswald dated november , (commission exhibit no. ). at the bottom of the letter he gives his address as "hotel metropole, room , moscow," with the marking, "(new room)." miss johnson. his room when i saw him was, i think it was room . it was down a corridor to the right. my room was , on the next floor. you turned just a little to the left to get to it. his was about or something like that. so he had probably been moved to a cheaper room. my room would probably have had the same rent as his--$ a day--but later his was maybe a little bit less. mr. slawson. i see. and would the woman employee of the hotel who told you that mr. oswald had gone have had charge only of the old corridor and not the corridor with room in it? miss johnson. no; i think she would have had charge of his new room too, but he would have entered it possibly from the other side of the landing. i rather forget where the was, but he might have entered it rather than from her desk turning right and then going down a corridor and then turning left. he might have taken his key from her and gone off to the left from her desk and from the elevator. she would have had charge of his room, but she might have been on duty for the first time since he moved, and only been aware that he had left--she might not have been trying to mislead me. it might have been her first day on duty since he switched his room, and she might have seen he wasn't in and not realized that he was on the same floor but in another room. i think the key thing is they probably gave him a very inexpensive room, since they were paying or since he was very poor. they perhaps accommodated him in allowing him to switch rooms. mr. slawson. you mentioned a minute ago that he might have taken his key from her. you mean by that that ordinarily--or rather, frequently--a hotel guest would leave his key with the woman on his floor, but that it was possible to carry the key with you so that you would not have to pick it up from her? miss johnson. no; customarily you pick it up from her when you go to your room and you leave it with her when you leave your room. it is simply that she would have had a book in which she had written down the room number of every guest, and i think each morning changes would be recorded there. my guess is that she rather than consciously misleading me--although she could have been told to say he was out, was gone--that there is a very good chance that she simply had not taken in that he was still there and in another room. he would have left his key though, and customarily she would have always asked him for the key when he left. mr. slawson. did oswald say something to you which would have led you to believe that he was interested in getting a less expensive room at the hotel? miss johnson. he struck me as notably reticent about his finances, about his financial situation. he told me, truthfully or otherwise; that he had been there for days on intourist. he said he was paying the standard room and food rate, and said "i want to make it clear they are not sponsoring me." i must have asked him about his financial situation in some detail, because i thought it would give a clue as to how they were handling him. if they had allowed him to go from the $ a day rate, that is the rate if you come intourist which he said he was on, if they allowed him to go from $ to a lesser sum, since mine was $ , that would indicate that they had an interest in him and they were seeking to help him, whether he knew it or not. and he was defensive. he bristled on the point, and i assume that there was more of an exchange of words than i took notes of, and that there was something there. i just didn't know what it was, and i couldn't get it out of him. but when you say he switched from to , was an outside room, the kind that foreigners have, and it would probably be bugged, and it would be for foreign guests coming in on intourist. i don't remember room , but the chances are it was an inside room. it might have been very small. it might or might not have had a bath attached to it, and the rate for it could have been as low as $ . a day. and they could have been either accommodating him because of their interest in him, or because they were simply responding to his financial situation while pending a decision on his request to stay. mr. slawson. while we are on this subject--how much he was paying for his hotel room and his finances generally--i am not clear whether you were able to get some kind of indication out of him whether he was paying the $ a day or simply the lower, something like $ a day. miss johnson. you see he said he had been there since days--perhaps what he said was since being there for days on intourist at $ a day "i have been paying the standard room and food rate." that is probably how i should read my own notes. "i want to make it clear they are not sponsoring me." your question is? mr. slawson. i am trying to establish what your impression was at the time of how much he was paying for that hotel room. miss johnson. at the time i was very unclear what he was paying. i think now he must have been paying $ for the days after his arrival in october, and $ a day after that until he left room . what he was paying when he moved into room i don't know. mr. mosk. that was $ a day the first days? miss johnson. yes, $ for the first days. probably after that $ a day, and after that i don't know. mr. slawson. are meals included in that $ a day? miss johnson. meals are included, but they wouldn't have been included once he went off it. mr. slawson. i realize you can only do this very approximately but if one were eating fairly inexpensively as oswald probably did---- miss johnson. and as i did. mr. slawson. but on the other hand he probably did not know much about the city of moscow, and so could not hunt out places that might be inexpensive. but how much per day do you think he could get along on for meals? miss johnson. perhaps i could just tell you from my own experience. i had a one-burner stove and i bought some food at the embassy commissary, some from the hotel, and some in the stores around, and my total living expenses probably didn't exceed $ a week, and my room would have been $ , and taxis would have been a little bit. so probably i could have done it on $ , and he without the stove and without the use of the commissary, but having probably modest tastes, he could have done it for somewhere between $ and $ a week foodwise. he did tell me that he had only been on one expedition by himself to this children's store where he got some food at the buffet, and if that is an indication that he was taking all his meals at the metropole, then it would have cost him $ to $ a week for food at least. mr. mosk. he generally didn't eat breakfast, or he generally ate very little for breakfast. would this make a difference? miss johnson. yes. mr. mosk. it might reduce it? miss johnson. because breakfast, coffee alone was very cheap. we had old rubles then, and i think it was--the figure in my mind is - / old rubles, which is cents, for coffee in the room, and they didn't charge you anything for room service. that would have been cheap, and soup was very nourishing and that was cheap. i think he knew his intourist guide pretty well, and she may have taken him home and given him food, or shown him cheap places to eat, so that when he said his only expedition himself, that could mean that he took literally himself but it could be he went other places with her, inexpensively. so he could have done pretty well. he could have kept it pretty low. mr. slawson. miss johnson, i don't think that we established clearly before when, or rather what day it was, when you spoke to john mcvickar and later spoke to lee harvey oswald and had your interview with him. miss johnson. i believe i spoke to john mcvickar either on friday, november , or monday, november . my recollection is that it was monday, the th, and that on coming home from the embassy, coming to the metropole, i went straight to oswald's room, and therefore that would have placed my original conversation with mcvickar on the th, my interview with oswald probably on the th, my writing of the story and my second conversation with mcvickar on the th, and my filing of the story on the th. but i could have seen oswald as late as the th; tuesday, the th. i could have seen oswald as late as tuesday, the th. my interview was the th or the th. mr. slawson. fine. miss johnson, i have here a copy of commission exhibit no. , which is a memorandum for the files dated november , , written by mr. john a. mcvickar of the american embassy in moscow. this is the same john mcvickar which you and i have been discussing and to whom you spoke about lee harvey oswald some time just before you saw mr. oswald. i hand you a copy of exhibit no. and would like you to take some time to read it and comment on your opinion of its accuracy, and make any corrections you like. it purports to record a discussion that you had with mr. mcvickar about lee harvey oswald. miss johnson. yes; firstly he says that i told him that i had seen oswald sunday, may . he would have meant here sunday, november . my recollection is that it was a monday night that i spoke with oswald, and it would therefore be monday, november , not may. mr. mosk. ? miss johnson. . yes; i was struck by oswald's reserve, and that comes out in the memo. i had forgotten, but i recollect, and it is not in my notes but i recollect that it is true that he said he had never talked so long about himself to anybody, that about his use of words struck me very much in conversation, that he sometimes pronounced a particular word correctly and later pronounced it incorrectly, and that simple words he sometimes mispronounced and hard ones he got right. mr. mosk. he was speaking in english? miss johnson. oh, yes; his emphasis on legality, i had the impression that unconsciously he wasn't -percent behind what he was doing, that he wanted to get out of it and he left a loophole and that the scapegoat was the embassy. mr. slawson. i would like to ask a question on that. you think then that he may have at least unconsciously had reservations right at that time that he was not doing the right thing? miss johnson. yes; and i think this is implicit in the interview and it corresponds with my recollection. it says here, "it was her opinion that he might consciously or not have been trying to leave a loophole for himself." i felt that in making such a scapegoat of the embassy and of mr. snyder, he was leaving himself a reason not to go back to the embassy, and hence not to really renounce his citizenship, and that impressed me even then, and i think that didn't come out in my story and it doesn't come out in my notes, but it does correspond with my recollection. i felt he was using his annoyance at the embassy for other reasons. it was a pretext, although i didn't think it was conscious. and i did bore in on whether the embassy had given him two versions, that is, whether they had said they were too busy, or whether there was legal grounds that they couldn't allow him to renounce citizenship until he had assurance of soviet citizenship. i was just interested in resolving the discrepancies, because i wanted to clarify the nature of the loophole he was leaving himself, rather really than to put the embassy on the spot. and also i wanted to get the embassy's role straight because i didn't know how fully in my story to put his annoyance at snyder, the consul. i wanted to be clear on what he was doing, before writing about his annoyance with snyder. mr. mosk. do you think, miss johnson, that he had any knowledge of the law of expatriation? miss johnson. my recollection of him was that he was very legally minded. he showed me his letters from the embassy, his exchange of letters from the embassy, and that is in the notes, that he claimed they were acting illegally. he showed me the text of these letters and asked me what i thought of them. he said that he had been told on saturday, october , that is a saturday, that they needed time to get the papers together. mr. mosk. but do you think that he had ever read a book of statutes or did he give you that impression, that somebody had told him about the law or that he had read the law? miss johnson. he claimed that they were acting illegally, and i am not at all sure that he didn't also indicate that he had a right, that he knew he had a right. i am not sure that he didn't say that they had told him at the embassy that they wanted some assurance that he had soviet citizenship, but actually i believe that this was more what i gathered from talking to mr. snyder and mr. mcvickar, that they actually wanted to give him time to think. somewhere i got the idea that he had also been told that they wanted assurance that he had soviet citizenship, before letting him renounce american citizenship. where i got the impression, i think it was from him, but i am not sure. yes; my guess about him is that he would feel that he knew the law. whether he would have seen it or been told it by somebody that he thought knew the law, he would have informed himself or thought he was informed about his legal rights. he seemed very stuck on the importance of legality, legalism. mr. slawson. miss johnson, i am going to now back up a bit and ask you some questions about the general atmosphere in moscow, quite apart from lee harvey oswald. i make reference here to exhibit no. , which we introduced just a minute ago. on the first page of that exhibit, which is your statement to the department of state, you mention that most of the defectors who came to moscow while you were a correspondent there came because of personal troubles they were having at home, rather than reasons of ideology. you also bring up the fact that, rather your belief that, the russians had wanted one or two defectors from the u.s. exhibition of to counter the negative propaganda they had been suffering from the frequent defections of east bloc persons to the west. i wonder if you would comment about both those points? first, if you could give us a description of approximately how many american defectors you either knew or had knowledge of at that time? miss johnson. well, i heard about most of those who came through, though i didn't necessarily interview them. there had been one called webster--richard webster, i think--from the fair, and he had had a job in ohio. he worked at the fair. i don't know what he did. at the end of the fair he asked to stay. that was, say, september or so of . we had defectors on the brain right then in moscow, all of us, because there had been a great deal of travel. the result was that a lot of tourists were there; there were an unusually large number. that is to say there had been three defectors. and webster, now, when you did go into it, it developed that he wasn't too happy with his wife and he was interested in a waitress at the hotel ukraine. there had been another one named petrulli--nicholas petrulli. i have forgotten the circumstances, but again they were personal, and i think he changed his mind. i think my colleague, mr. korengold, supported him, really, while he was thinking it over and deciding not to do it. that is as far as i can remember. those were better known cases that i didn't bother with because i couldn't compete with the agencies. and the oswald case i did see because mr. mcvickar said he was refusing to talk to journalists. so i thought that it might be an exclusive, for one thing, and he was right in my hotel, for another. but then, once i got talking to him, i realized right away that he was different. at least i found him interesting at the time. afterward i thought he was very interesting. i don't remember the petrulli case; it was probably after the oswald case, and then there were a couple named block--morris block and mrs. block. i one day encountered mrs. block on the third floor of my hotel, sitting talking with the woman who gave out the keys. she was quite a forthcoming lady who talked far more about herself than she should have, since they couldn't have wanted any publicity right then about themselves. so i knew about the blocks, too. mr. mosk. they also came back? miss johnson. they did come back this year, lately. but i didn't know too much about the blocks. there was something else about the blocks. maybe they had some connection with the soviet union. maybe he had been there before. there was some reason about the blocks. anyway, i couldn't get to interview them. that was the crux of the matter. so that oswald was the only--and there was something that made me think the blocks were not pure ideological, that they had some connections with russia as such, although i may be quite mistaken. mr. slawson. you mean possibly some business or personal connection that would give them a tie? miss johnson. right. mr. slawson. that would be different, quite apart from the ideology of communist russia? miss johnson. i had the feeling that perhaps mr. block had been in the soviet union before, perhaps in the service during war or that they were of russian ancestry, something of that kind, which took away from any ideological features. here oswald was of an age that made him different right away. he was only , and i had never heard of anybody of that age in the first place, or that generation, taking an ideological interest to the point where he would defect. his age made him extraordinary. somebody of his generation reminded me right away of the 's, and i lived in the hotel where i heard stories about the kind of defectors who came in the 's; that is, they had been ideological. they had come for reasons of race or sex; women desirous of emancipation, the american women; negroes desirous of thinking that here is a country where negroes were treated equally; people of leftist views; and among the press corps i was aware that most of the western press corps or much of it were fellow traveling or communist, and i read quite a bit about them. mr. mosk. this is during the thirties? mr. slawson. during the 's? miss johnson. yes. malcolm muggeridge, eugene lyons, louis fischer. and i would gather these tales, because i was interested in them. (discussion off the record.) mr. slawson. do you want to add something to what you have previously said? miss johnson. the ones we have are malcolm muggeridge, eugene lyons, louis fischer, walter duranty. these were famous cases of people who had a great interest in communism, and the soviet union in some ways was the promised land to them. mr. lyons later titled a book "assignment in utopia." our press corps was not at all like that. we were mostly there because moscow was a great place to make a name and a career, and we ranged from very interested, like me, to downright disenchanted, you know. we were all pretty anti and skeptical, and we were there because it was good for our careers rather than because we were interested in communism or because we thought it was the promised land, and that was always striking to me, because i often heard stories about the thirtys, and i really thought it sounded very exciting then. and he was the one person who seemed to have nineteen-thirtyish reasons, unemployment in the united states, economic difficulty, racial inequalities, interest in communism. so i thought sometime i would like to write an article about how the kind of newspaper people and the kind of defectors who really came now reflected what happened to the soviet union compared to the thirtys, going back to muggeridge's memoirs, lyons, fischer's memoirs, duranty's memoirs, and what other people had said about duranty to show what happened to the soviet union itself. it didn't attract people now for ideological reasons. it was a bourgeois country like any other, and if it attracted people from the west it was because they wanted to make it their career; it had become a career for foreigners; or because they were personal malcontents. they weren't getting along with their wives. it was the strangest kind of reason. oswald was the exception that proved the rule. and i had made notes about him in the interim, when i thought of him, because of this. he was the exception who proved the rule because he purported to be acting for ideological reasons. whenever i thought about him i thought: what is behind these professed reasons? they are really emotional reasons in his case, too, and i don't understand, although it is not obvious like a wife he is leaving, they are still emotional reasons, and i don't know what is behind his professed ideological reasons. and i can't guess. so he was the pin really for the piece, and i couldn't guess them. if i had known he was back in the states--i had thought about him, it seems to me, as recently as weeks before the assassination, and wondered, and the way that the thought used to come to me was, "i wonder what ever happened to that little lee oswald?" and had i known he was back--i thought he would have been disenchanted, trapped in russia, unable to get out--if i had known he was back i probably would have tried to see him, write him, go to see him. and if i had been able to figure out his reasons and what happened to him, maybe i could have written that piece. mr. mosk. you had no indication that people could not leave the soviet union? miss johnson. oh, yes; i did. i had plenty of indication that they couldn't leave, and i didn't assume for a second that he had ever left or gotten out, and i wanted, if i could, to help him, warn him subtly that he was going to be trapped. that is why i spent so long talking to him. but i assumed that my room was wired, and i couldn't be obvious about it, and i tried to do it by talking to him about economics. mr. slawson. before we get into the actual interview you had with mr. oswald, miss johnson, the other comment on the first page of exhibit no. which you made was, and i quote: "the russians had wanted one or two defectors from the u.s. exhibition of to counter the negative propaganda they had been suffering from the more or less frequent defections of east-bloc persons to the west." could you first identify the exhibition you are referring to, and then give the basis for your statement of what the russians wanted? miss johnson. right. i am speaking of the u.s. exhibition at sokolniki park in moscow that had been opened by vice president nixon in july of , which ran for weeks, which brought a great many americans to moscow for periods, fairly long periods of time, in the capacity of employees of the fair, setting up pavilions, setting up exhibits, some guides. and i didn't know this, but i had the impression that they had encouraged webster to defect. i may be quite mistaken about that. webster was an employee of the fair, and i thought perhaps they wanted one. that was just an assumption. oswald, however, i again bored in quite a bit in my talk with him as to whether they were encouraging him, and he said they were neither encouraging or discouraging. he was very anxious as to whether they were going to let him stay, and this did strike me as a little unusual. i thought they would encourage it. and i didn't know whether he was just a very anxious person, hence anxious, or whether they were keeping him on tenterhooks, not for tactical reasons at all but because of genuine doubts about having him. my only conclusion could be--it was at the time--that nikita khrushchev just had been to see eisenhower; that they were not encouraging defections because of the political atmosphere. i didn't realize that it might be anything personal about oswald. i assumed that it was the atmosphere. mr. slawson. when you first approached oswald to ask him for an interview--could you describe that? miss johnson. i knocked on his door, expecting to be let in. but i wasn't let in. he came out. he came to the door and i stayed in the hall. he stayed in the doorway as i recall it, and i asked him if he would let me talk to him; expected he would say no, from what mr. mcvickar had told me. but he said quite quickly yes, he would come, and he said he would come to my room. he didn't invite me to his, and he named an hour for that evening when he would come, and he did come that evening just at the time he said, and he stayed. mr. slawson. could you see into his room to see whether he was alone at that time? miss johnson. no; i had the impression he was alone, but i didn't see that anyone was there. had somebody been sitting in his room, i think i could have seen them. my guess is that his bed would have been out of sight, but that the chairs in which anybody would have been sitting with him might have been visible. but he may have had the door open sufficiently little or at such an angle that i couldn't have seen had he been alone. mr. slawson. did you know at the time that miss aline mosby, a newspaper reporter, i believe, for the associated press at that time---- miss johnson. for the united press international. mr. slawson. united press--had spoken to oswald several days earlier? miss johnson. no; i had been told he wasn't talking to people, and i hoped that he hadn't talked to anyone else. mr. slawson. did you ever learn from oswald that he had spoken to miss mosby earlier? miss johnson. no; i never heard from anyone until after november the d, , although mr. mcvickar had said that i could ask mr. korengold about him. that was a tip that perhaps he had talked to somebody at upi, but i didn't want to tip the upi that i was on to it because i thought that would reinvigorate their efforts. so i never did speak to anybody except mr. mcvickar. mr. slawson. while we are back on mr. mcvickar, i don't think we established for the record absolutely clearly whether there was anything in exhibit no. besides the date and the day which you felt should be corrected? miss johnson. no; not at all. there is a postscript at the bottom which is dated november . so far as i recall, this doesn't reflect another conversation. it simply reflects an afterthought on the part of mr. mcvickar, or conceivably a second conversation between me and mr. mcvickar. he may have asked me more questions, and this may reflect a little additional. mr. slawson. but it does not reflect a second conversation between you and lee harvey oswald; is that correct? miss johnson. no. mr. slawson. i asked you if that was correct? miss johnson. it is correct. it does not reflect a second conversation with mr. lee harvey oswald. mr. slawson. now then, we can get back to your interview with lee harvey oswald that evening. i have some questions here, but i want you to feel free to interject any comments of your own at any time. of course we have as exhibits many of your previous statements and articles reflecting your thinking about this before coming here today, so we can both, i think, confine ourselves to elaborations or possible corrections or discussions around the points that you have already set down in the exhibits. the first thing i would like to bring up is a point you touched upon briefly already in the exhibits, that oswald seemed to be greatly concerned with economics, and that you weren't, and that consequently a great deal of the time in the interview was taken up you might say with noncommunicative thought, or speech rather. i wonder if you would define what you mean by economics, and elaborate on that a little bit? miss johnson. well, since i liked mr. oswald, and since mr. mcvickar had pointed out to me that there was a narrow line between my duty as a correspondent and duty as an american, i hoped to establish some kind of communication with him, although i was really trying to write a story about him. i went outside my duty in the sense that i did try to establish some kind of communication. i rather quickly perceived that the best way to do this was to follow his lead and discuss economics. that is what interested him more than anything. he wasn't interested in talking about politics. he hadn't seen enough of soviet society to discuss it very concretely, nor was i in a position to point out to him too much about its shortcomings, because i was a correspondent there, because my room wasn't a really private place for conversation, and so i tried really to point out its shortcomings in economic terms which seemed to be the surest way of reaching him, and it was the subject on which he had the most interest. my notes therefore don't really reflect a great deal of that part of the conversation, because it meant nothing to me storywise at the time. it wasn't what i was going to write about. and i wasn't too interested in it really. i was just trying to talk with him. and so when i talked to him, what i said wasn't recorded in the notes, and the gist of his reply was--of his replies were--that is about the exploitation of the worker. i tried to point out to him that in the stage of primary accumulation any society has to take more from the workers. they have to be paid less than they really create. so there is poverty and injustice everywhere. it was by way of trying to say to him that things were not so good in the soviet union if he just would look, because i wanted him to think before he did it. i assumed his act was irrevocable and i was very sorry for him. so all this was couched in economic language, which takes up time, and in which i wasn't really too interested. i did feel that when he left that if i only understood economics more--had only taken more interest in it when i studied it, i had only studied it a bit more--that i could have answered him, talked with him in terms that he could really respect, and that it might have caused him to think more about his action and might even have caused him to hesitate, and might have built up his respect for me sufficiently that i could become someone whom he would have come back to talk to and could have been some help to him. and i felt that i had failed him in the sense that i could not talk to him in the one language that he really wanted to talk in and was interested in. i did as much as i could along those lines, but i felt that it had been inadequate in the situation in my own desire to help him. mr. slawson. you used the term "economics." do you mean by that, economics in the sense of a marxist versus capitalist discussion, terms like you used, "primary accumulation," "exploitation," and so on? miss johnson. yes, a little better than exploitation, more in primary accumulation, and comparing the two systems. if i had been good at comparing the two systems and using economic verbiage--i guess that what i am saying is that if i had had long words about economics, been able to throw them around with some authority, he would have respected me. he did respect words, long words, language, and if i had seemed to have a key to some occult science that he didn't know about but was interested in, that this would have compelled his respect and might have brought him back. but i had taken a course in soviet economics at harvard where they had waived the requirement that you had studied the american economic system, and i had done all right in the course, but that really was where my economic training began and ended, and i just barely sustained my interest through the course. i regreted very much after that conversation not having ever really studied economics formally, at least not knowing the terms. i am so uninterested in it that if somebody tells me the words i forget them. it was that bad with me. this was the only real occasion where i was very sorry. mr. slawson. in commission exhibit no. , which is john mcvickar's memorandum to files about his conversation with you, he quotes you as saying, "miss johnson remarked that although he used long words and seemed in some ways well-read, he often used words incorrectly as though he had learned them from a dictionary." was that in reference to these economic discussions you had with oswald? miss johnson. yes. i think really he didn't use long words too much about economics. i felt if i could have, i could have made an impression. words were important to him. and he was not qualified, mind you, for a technical discussion of economics. it wasn't that he was qualified for it. if i had been, i felt i would have had a value to him. mr. slawson. i wish you would elaborate on this: what kind of knowledge you felt lee oswald had on economics, and his general ability to engage in abstract argument and discussion. miss johnson. he liked to create the pretense, the impression that he was attracted to abstract discussion and was capable of engaging in it, and was drawn to it. but it was like pricking a balloon. i had the feeling that if you really did engage him on this ground, you very quickly would discover that he didn't have the capacity for a logical sustained argument about an abstract point on economics or on noneconomic, political matters or any matter, philosophical. actually the conversation kept coming back to him, and this was not only my desire for an interview. it was the way he led it. he really talked about himself the whole time. whatever he was talking about was really lee oswald. he seemed to me to have really zero capacity for a sustained abstract discussion on economics or any other subject, and i didn't think he knew anything about economics. in fact, if i had been a little smarter i would have just used the economic words that i could have remembered, compelled his respect and he wouldn't have known that i didn't know anything. mr. slawson. you said that you did not get into much political discussion with him. miss johnson. no, we didn't. partly i couldn't engage him directly on the soviet union because i had a poor status there as a correspondent. i worked for the weakest of the american agencies. i was always in danger of being expelled with my visa expiring. even then i was only on a month visa, and at that only because of the spirit of camp david. i had just barely gotten back in the country. i was just there on sufferance, and i really couldn't show my hand politically, tell him anything i thought politically. he also didn't seem interested in a pointed political discussion about either society. he seemed to be able or willing to discuss in generalizations rather than in direct terms, a comparison of the two societies or anything like this. the point where i felt i could engage him was on economics, and here we did go in for some comparisons of the two societies. that was all. but politics we hardly discussed, except when he brought it up. and he didn't bring it up in terms of people at all. (short recess.) mr. slawson. miss johnson, i wonder if you would search your memory with the help of your notes and make any comments you could on what contacts lee oswald had had with soviet officials before you saw him, any remarks he made or things you could read between the lines, and so on. miss johnson. i was looking for contact between him and the secret police, and i wanted to find out if there had been such contact, and if so, how much and was he aware of it. and i came away impressed only with the fact that he was secretive, and not at all certain what his contacts had been, but assuming that there had been some, whether or not he was aware of it. he was very reticent as to who he had seen, what agencies they represented. i asked him whether he had told intourist of his intention, and his answer, which is on the record somewhere, i asked him if they were encouraging him, and he said they treat it like a legal formality. they don't encourage and don't discourage you. "they do of course warn you that it is not easy to be accepted as a citizen of the soviet union." they were investigating the possibility of his studying. i assumed that the police had told him he wasn't to see any of us, and that they would tell him when he left the hotel at the end of the week not to tell any one before he left. i asked him if intourist knew about his intentions and he refused to answer. he said he had had an interview with an official of the soviet government a few days later. i assume that means after his arrival. but "official of the soviet government" meant nothing and i didn't know what agency that official represented. also i had the impression, in fact he said, he hoped that his experience as a radar operator would make him more desirable to them. that was the only thing that really showed any lack of integrity in a way about him, a negative thing. that is, he felt he had something he could give them, something that would hurt his country in a way, or could, and that was the one thing that was quite negative, that he was holding out some kind of bait. that also indicated his extreme naivete, because they have plenty of radar operators, and i doubted that anything in that realm would be of use to them, although perhaps he knew codes and things. i didn't know anything about that. mr. slawson. could you elaborate a little bit on that radar point. had you been informed by the american embassy at the time that he had told richard snyder that he had already volunteered to the soviet officials that he had been a radar operator in the marine corps, and would give the russian government any secrets he had possessed? miss johnson. i had no idea that he had told snyder that, but he did tell me--i got the impression, i am not sure that it is in the notes or not, i certainly got the impression that he was using his radar training as a come-on to them, hoped that that would make him of some value to them, and i---- mr. slawson. this was something then that he must have volunteered to you, because you would not have known to ask about it? miss johnson. well, again i am not very military minded, and i couldn't have cared less, you know. but somehow along the line, if it is not in my notes then it is a memory, then it is one of the things i didn't write--well, one thing is you know i tend to write what i thought i might use in the story. but i wasn't going to write a particularly negative story about him. i wasn't going to write that he was using it as a come-on so i might not have transcribed it just simply for that reason, that it wasn't a part of my story. but it definitely was an impression that he--and it was from him, certainly not from the embassy, that he was using that as a come-on, and i sure didn't like that. but it didn't occur to me he might have military secrets. i just felt, well hell, he didn't have much as a radar operator that they need, although even there i didn't know. maybe there was some little twist in our radar technique that he might know. it showed a lack of integrity in his personality, and that i remembered. what he might or might not have to offer them i didn't know. about the other point, police interest, i assumed the police would be the first people to be interested, and that whether he knew it or not, he had talked to somebody from the police, that he was getting a favorable room rate because of this interest. that is what i was after the whole time. but i was struck only by his secretiveness in answer to this, and i couldn't make out whether he had something to hide, whether he didn't know really what the situation was, or whether he was simply a very secretive person. mr. slawson. did he tell you that he had this information which he was, you might say, holding out as bait to the soviets, or that he had already given to the soviet government whatever expertise or information he might have had as a radar operator? miss johnson. i think he told me--could you repeat your question? mr. slawson. well, i will put it in a different way. i wonder whether your memory is that oswald was telling you that he had this information which he had not yet given to the soviet government, and hoped to use it as a means of convincing them to take him, or whether he had already given it to them? miss johnson. no; he didn't tell me that he had any specific information, that he offered it, that he had told them, or that he would tell them. it was not that explicit. it was something like if his experience as a radar operator would be of any use to them, perhaps they would let him work as a radar operator. it was a little more pointed than that, because i realized that he was going to make available his radar experience, and that he did want to use it as a come-on. it was a tiny bit, a little bit more pointed than that, but it was more in that category. if anything he learned as a radar operator in the marines would be useful to them, he would give it to them, and he hoped to continue his training, something like that. but it is not in my notes. it is memory, and it is the most negative recollection of him i had. mr. slawson. did he make any comments to you about having been interviewed by any soviet newspaper reporters or radio reporters or anything of that type? miss johnson. well, of course that is an obvious question i ought to have asked him, since a visiting foreigner very quickly does get that kind of attention, but i didn't ask him. mr. slawson. you did, i think, according to the statements you have made in these exhibits, ask him whether he had had any contacts with american communists or other communists before he came to the soviet union? miss johnson. i wasn't as suspicious about this as i had been on the soviet police angle, but he awakened my suspicions by his reticence. he seemed to have something to hide, and once again i didn't know whether he had something to hide or whether he was just very secretive, because i asked him what books he had read, and he wouldn't say. yet he was certainly trying to give me the impression that he was a book-learned boy, and this comes about page of my notes. we were talking about books, and we were talking about his contact with american socialists or communists about the same time. so perhaps the way that the conversation led from one to the other gave me the impression that he wasn't naming books because he didn't want to hurt authors by suggesting that they had had anything to do--he was taking full responsibility--that they had had anything to do with his defection. but you would think he would have mentioned books because he was giving the impression that he was a boy who paid a lot of attention and he really read books. then socialists and communists, i wasn't too suspicious although i should have been. how did he get there? it wasn't easy at all for him to do. i was more impressed, awed by it, than i was inquisitive about where he might have been coached. but he awakened me to the point that i should be inquisitive because of the very fact that he eluded, naming names, specified that he had no contacts with american communists, going out of his way to stress it. i am sure that this part of our conversation was quite a bit longer than came out in my notes. again you know i had no idea that he was going to ever be at all important. but it was he who put the emphasis on lack of contacts with american communists. he said american socialists were to be shunned by anybody with an interest in progressive ideology. i probably brought them up rather than the communists first, just as his interest in socialist literature. he answered, "well, they were to be shunned." this was an emphatic reply to what was probably a very vague, general, unemphatic question. and he called them "a dormant flag-waving organization." so that woke me up and i asked him what about american communists, and he said--he was very emphatic here and again probably at more length than was in the notes--that only through reading literature and observing, but he wouldn't name what literature, american communists "(i never saw an american communist)" he said, and i put that in parentheses because i was that uninterested, really. i didn't make it anything but a parenthetical observation, but only through reading did he conclude it was best. in other words it was he who had tried to emphasize that there had not been people involved. retrospectively i see that this was important, that there may have been people involved. mr. slawson. you say retrospectively you see that it was important. do you mean by that that you see now it was very important to him that he establish to you that he had come only on his own? miss johnson. well, i saw then that it was important to him to establish this to me. my story reflects whatever importance i gave it at the time. but if i knew about him then a tenth of what i know now, i would have tried to pin him down even more on it, that he might have had coaching. it is also the sort of thing that comes out more clearly when you look at your notes and you think about a person afterwards, just-how-did-he-get-here kind of a thing. how does a boy like this who doesn't know his way around moscow find his way here? but at the time i was talking to him, i had less interest really than in any help he may have had on the soviet side. mr. slawson. trying to divorce what you now know from what you knew then, did he go into any detail at all about his life before he came to russia, his life in the marine corps particularly? miss johnson. the only details there were about his experience abroad. he said literally nothing about his experience in the marine corps in the united states except that he was studying russian then. he did speak about his experience in the marine corps abroad in japan, in the philippines, and he indicated that he hated to be part of it, you know, "oppressing power." he said he had been part of an invasion of indonesia in march , that there was a communist-inspired social turnover, that they had to sit off the coast in ships with enough ammunition to intervene. he was told that they might have had to go in in suez in . he had been in japan and the philippines, and he hated to participate in what he viewed as american imperialism, but details of his life in the marine corps he didn't go into at all. mr. slawson. at that time did you yourself speak a fair amount of russian? miss johnson. yes. mr. slawson. were you able to judge his facility in that language? miss johnson. no; because our conversation was totally in english. it was he who volunteered about his linguistic competence, and i think that he said that while the berlitz method had helped him learn to read and write, and i queried "write" because writing is even harder than speaking, it hadn't taught him to speak. and he indicated considerable helplessness in the language. there are a number of things not in the notes, such as perhaps this, about the language, there was more than is in the notes. his helplessness about the city, the fact that he had only been on one walk by himself is not in my notes, but it is in my story. there are a few things like that that weren't in the notes, but that came across very clearly. i had the feeling that he felt quite helpless in russian, not that he hadn't studied it but he simply didn't find the study was useful in his day-to-day getting around the city. mr. slawson. your article quotes oswald as saying that he used berlitz methods in learning the language. does your memory have anything to add to that as to what exactly he might have meant? miss johnson. yes. this was another point where he struck me as really rather elusive about an innocent enough subject. i see on page , he said, "i started learning russian a year ago along with my other preparations." well, his saying "along with my other preparations" took my interest at the time. what were they? whether i tried to find out more about what they were and failed and therefore that is not in the notes, but he threw it out and he then didn't really deliver as far as detailing them. he said, "i was able to teach myself to read and write from berlitz. i still have trouble speaking." so i said, "well, how did you teach yourself to read and write from berlitz? did you just get a textbook or did you go into some city nearby for lessons at a school?" and he wouldn't answer, and that struck me as one hell of a--i mean a strange thing to be elusive about. why, learning a language is just something you can tell somebody, so i thought. so i said, "practice or a teacher? did you have a teacher or did you just do it from practice?" and he wouldn't say. and then that got me sufficiently curious that i asked him on what money he had come to the soviet union. that was my next question. he did have a way of a little bit piquing your curiosity and then failing to deliver. he liked to play cat and mouse with your curiosity. mr. slawson. can you go into and describe what kind of assurances oswald said he had been given at that time about his ability to stay indefinitely in the soviet union, or lack of assurances? miss johnson. this was a point on which his anxiety was patent, and he said almost at the beginning of the interview, "they have confirmed the fact that i will not have to leave the soviet union, be forced to leave even if the supreme soviet refuses my request for soviet citizenship." this came up repeatedly in the conversation, that he was anxious, that he had been very anxious that he would be forced to go--what was your question exactly again? mr. slawson. i think you are already addressing yourself to it. i am interested in what oswald told you about how sure he was at that time that he would be permitted to stay in the soviet union. miss johnson. well, he had by that time been told that he wouldn't have to leave, and as it had obviously been very recently that he had been told. it was obviously also an enormous relief to him but he hadn't quite recovered from the anxiety he had felt before the assurance, because it kept coming up again and again. in fact, he even---- mr. slawson. could you state for the record what kept coming up again and again? i mean, what did he tell you he had been told? miss johnson. the fact that he could stay in the soviet union as a resident alien even if he did not receive soviet citizenship, that he wouldn't have to leave the country. it came up almost as a leit motif of this conversation, his anxiety about staying, and his recent reassurance by them that he could remain as a resident alien had not altogether quelled the anxiety which was still alive, even though the assurance was there. he was holding on to it and repeating it, you know, reiterating it as though it gave him something to hold on to. in fact, he did give this as a reason for his talking to me, that he no longer was afraid that by talking to a foreigner he would be compromising his ability to stay. in other words, all the time i was also curious really as to just what he was. was he a publicity seeker? was he doing it for that reason? and so he said he wouldn't have talked, that he would have given no statement to the press, which was a rather pretentious way i guess of describing his utterances up to that time, if the embassy hadn't already released it, and he wouldn't have said anything to anyone if they hadn't released it. this was another reason for his being mad at the embassy. then he went on to say as another reason for talking--he was already inconsistent there--he would like to give his side of the story and give the people of the united states something to think about. and then on top of that, that having been assured "i would not have to return to the united states i assumed it would be safe for me to give my side of the story," and at the time i underlined the word "safe." why did he think it would be unsafe, and "my side of the story"? he is assuming that the embassy is giving out a negative story about him. he was paranoid. i mean he assumed that they were saying nasty things about him and he wanted to set the record straight. this told me something about him already at the beginning of the interview, that he really was a little bit paranoid. mr. slawson. i have intentionally asked you of your impressions on this point, without giving you some other information that we have, and i now want to give that information to you and see whether in the light of this, what is your interpretation of oswald's attitude at that time. his historic diary, which is commission exhibit no. , has an entry that on november he interviewed aline mosby. that is incorrect, probably a day late. it was probably the th or the th. on november , which he places as the day after he interviewed her, he has the following entry: "a russian official comes to my room, asks how i am, notifies me i can remain in u.s.s.r. 'til some solution is found with what to do with me. it is comforting news for me." miss johnson. that was the th. mr. slawson. but i say, do not take the dates correctly except that one date comes after another, because he also placed the interview with mosby the th, which we know must have been at least as early as the th, and possibly as early as the th. miss johnson. in other words--yes; but that might help account for the fullness. either he is lying; i.e., really he is misled, or not lying but confused about his reason for talking to me, and i think he was. mr. slawson. but i think that the significance of the entry is that the promise that he could stay was very distinctly qualified. miss johnson. "until some solution----" mr. slawson. "is found what to do with me." miss johnson. that is interesting: "until some solution." the way he put it to me was, and he put it more than once, it is in the notes, "even if they refuse that, i won't have to leave." i imagine that his talking to me for so long, however, could be partly because he did feel the heat was off him in some way. that might be one reason. another thing is that leads me to date my own interview the th, because for some reason i have the feeling that that information has been conveyed to him on the day before i talked to him. mr. slawson. i don't think this is a basis for your dating your interview on the th, because i think he has everything moved up a day here. he puts the mosby interview on the th which we know was on the th, so he probably puts the russian officials coming to his room on the th when it probably occurred on the th. miss johnson. that would be a sunday. but soviet officials do do things on sundays. they definitely do. but even so, it is more likely that that happened on the th, mosby on the th. that is possible, too. mr. slawson. yes. miss johnson. so they had just simply said until--in other words, he is inexact for all his legalism. either he is confused and inexact, or he was misleading purposely. he may have misunderstood the official, thought the official was promising more than he was. mr. slawson. it could be, except that this of course is his diary entry, so he must have known what he was writing there, unless he wrote it down much later. in other words, it is possible that he made the entry in the diary at a much later time when he then realized that the promise had been qualified, and was under the impression when he spoke to you that he had received an unconditional promise. but the reason i brought this up was whether with the insight that he may have known when he spoke to you, that he had not quite received the unconditional promise he purported to have received, does this give you any further insight on him? i don't want you to just speculate here. miss johnson. well, whether he viewed publicity as actually perhaps helping his case, or whether enjoying the sense of importance that publicity gave him, he was rationalizing it by thinking that he was manipulating the situation to his advantage by having a little more publicity. this is the only thing i wonder. or possibly it was simply relief. he did use the word "safe," that he felt it would be safe. mr. slawson. i think we have about got out all on that point we can. could you elaborate a little more on oswald's attitude toward the embassy's reluctance to permit him to renounce his citizenship, on what he felt the embassy was doing here, and what your impression was what the embassy was doing? miss johnson. my impression from talking to john mcvickar was that the embassy had tried to give him a cooling off period, to be sure he knew what he was doing, but that it had also written him, informed him in writing that he could renounce his citizenship and he had a perfect right to come in and do so. the embassy's behavior had been correct, and on the side it was trying to be humane, giving him time to think out what he was doing. mr. slawson. did he show you the letter the embassy had written him? miss johnson. he showed me two letters, and i think he asked me something about them. i was very amused, because the embassy was his scapegoat, and he did keep bringing it up. but this contrasted with really the correctness of the letters that he showed me from them, and it contrasted with the rather kindly attitude that mr. mcvickar had. and then on top of that he kept saying he shouldn't be too mad at them, but he indicated that he was very very mad at them indeed. he said november he had written a letter of protest to the ambassador protesting the way snyder had carried out his duties, and had received a letter back, and he then gave me, showed me the letter. but my impression is that he showed me two letters. mr. slawson. perhaps i can refresh your recollection a little. i am now on page of your exhibit no. , in which you quote from a letter from the state department which he showed you. miss johnson. this is mr. thompson's letter. he did show it to me. i remember now that he showed me the letter. mr. slawson. a letter from mr. thompson? miss johnson. from ambassador thompson. well, i am not sure. he said he wrote a letter of protest to the u.s. ambassador, and he received this letter back. but it may have been that the letter was signed by mr. snyder. mr. slawson. yes. do you think that your recollection of two letters may be that one he wrote and the other he received, or do you distinctly remember that he received two which he showed you? miss johnson. i thought he showed me two things, but the only one i wrote anything about was the embassy's reply, and either my memory has miscarried and he only showed me one letter, or i simply don't recollect what the other one was. mr. slawson. is it correct that the embassy reply you are referring to is the one that is quoted on page ? miss johnson. right. mr. slawson. of your exhibit no. ? miss johnson. right. mr. slawson. did he show you any communications he had received from his family or anybody else? miss johnson. no. he told me that--again there is a little more here than is in the notes but it is partly a matter of impression. he was avoiding hearing from them, and they called him, and he said it was to ask him to come back, and he wouldn't answer. how did he know they were asking him to come back if he didn't answer? he was full of those kinds of contradictions, but that he was avoiding them. as far as i recollect he didn't show me anything from his family. mr. slawson. did he tell you why he was avoiding communications with his family? miss johnson. no. mr. slawson. did he---- miss johnson. well, maybe he felt his resolve was shaky. i felt his resolve was shaky, and maybe he felt so too, and he was afraid if he talked to them they would talk him out of it. mr. slawson. in one of your exhibits you comment on his reply to one of your questions, that if he was so adamant on wanting to renounce his american citizenship, he could do so by going back to the embassy, and that he had been so informed in the letter. his reply to that, according to your exhibits, was that they would simply give him the same runaround again. do you have anything to add to that? miss johnson. well, it has come up. it is in the notes several times here, and i may not catch it each time. but i think i have already spoken for the record my impression that he was really not consistent about the embassy, or i might say just putting it a little more strongly and editorially, he was not quite honest, because he claimed he was so mad he wouldn't go back, yet he was so firm in his resolve as a great big man, that he was going to give up his citizenship, you know. but i pointed out to him that this seemed to me to be pique, boyish pique. whether i actually said it, you know, i probably didn't quite, but that is what i thought. he was indulging himself. if he was really so resolved to give up his citizenship, then why let a little thing like annoyance over his october the st interview stand in the way of doing this, which he felt was an important principle and act? and i did point out to him the discrepancies in a gentler way than i honestly thought. the answers in my notes reflect his response to this, not the way that i put it to him, that he wouldn't go back because of this and that. he did show me the letter, but my impression is that he wanted to know whether i thought that the letter was proper treatment. showing it to me was to me an indication of his very legal approach, legalistic approach to things, and it seemed to me of course nothing exceptional about the letter. you see there he knew what he could do, and he was in light of that refusing to go to the embassy. that seemed to me very immature, and from the standpoint of his stated principles, very inconsistent. mr. slawson. i just have one final question here. i would like to bring together---- miss johnson. excuse me, could i add something there? mr. slawson. yes. miss johnson. and that really was one more thing that led me to think that he was less than certain about his attempt to defect. well, leaving himself this loophole was it seemed to me important, it seemed important at the time, and he knew he was doing it, because i pointed it out to him. he knew he was doing it, and he got out of it by whatever it was he said to me. i can't isolate all the comments in the notes, but they are all there. he got out of it, but he knew he was doing it. mr. slawson. but you felt that all these comments then were more or less excuses made up in his own mind, either consciously or unconsciously, that he was--excuses for not going back to the embassy to make this final step of dissolving his citizenship? miss johnson. and that behind what appeared to me to be boyish pique lay something else. he was leaving himself a way out, and i was fully aware of it at the time. mr. slawson. we previously have discussed how much he probably was paying for his hotel room at various times, and for his meals. i bring to your attention one of your statements in the exhibits, that he said he had been living on intourist vouchers for days, and we have already gone into what days probably meant. did he make any other comments that would relate to how much money his attempt to defect was costing him? miss johnson. finance was certainly something i talked to him about, and it was something he was notably elusive about, and again he said he was paying the standard rate. "i want to make it clear they are not sponsoring me." naturally i wanted to know on what money he got there, and it was in response to this that he told me the itinerary by which he came, by which he said he came, that is from new orleans to le havre, to helsinki. he gave me his route. whether it was the true route i don't know, but he gave me what he said was the route, and the method of transport. he said he left from new orleans september . i wasn't absolutely sure that was the date he gave me, on a friday by ship. actually the th was a saturday. and he might have left on the th. that it took him days to get to le havre, that he booked a flight to helsinki but you couldn't fly to helsinki from le havre. you would have to fly from paris. mr. slawson. actually he flew from london. he went from le havre to london and then helsinki. miss johnson. by the same ship? mr. slawson. no; by airplane i believe. anyway he disembarked on the ship at le havre, as he told you, then went from there to london i believe by airplane, although i am not certain. but then he went by airplane from london to helsinki. miss johnson. yes; actually he got his visa in london probably. mr. slawson. well, i do know some of these facts, but i would like you to go on the best of your recollection. miss johnson. he said nothing about london at all. i never was sure how the hell he got to helsinki, but he said he went by train from helsinki to moscow, and he repeated that for days he had been on those vouchers. mr. slawson. did he indicate to you anything about how he got his visa? miss johnson. no; not at all. i may well have asked him too. a question and a nonreply, though, are not recorded in my notes, but i may well have asked him. on the other hand i think i would have remembered if he had said anything. if he just evaded the way he evaded a lot, i might not have put it down, because evasion was really quite characteristic of him. but of course i was curious where he got it, and how. and i do have $ written down here as the rate. you know there was a businessman's rate of $ a day at that time, and also the $ rate i am telling you is as of that time because it is now $ . but i do have $ written down, so i assumed that he specified that he was there at the $ rate those days, not the $ . no; he said nothing about a visa, and of course i was curious. mr. slawson. i have no more specific questions, miss johnson. if you have anything at all to add, or any further comments you want to make, please go ahead and do so. miss johnson. no; i don't. mr. slawson. thank you very much for coming here. miss johnson. thank you. testimony of eric rogers the testimony of eric rogers was taken on july , , at the old civil courts building, royal and conti streets, new orleans, la., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. eric rogers, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: mr. liebeler. mr. rogers, i am an attorney on the staff of the president's commission. i think i met you one day. mr. rogers. i remember you; yes, sir. mr. liebeler. i wanted to ask you a few questions about oswald. i am questioning you under authority granted to me by the commission under executive order no. , dated november , , and joint resolution of congress, no. . you are entitled to have an attorney if you want to and you don't have to answer any questions if you feel that they are incriminating. mr. rogers. well, i can't answer what i don't know. i will tell you just what i told them, you see. that's all i saw. mr. liebeler. mr. rogers, am i correct in understanding that you lived at magazine street during the period last summer when---- mr. rogers. i did; a few months. mr. liebeler. when did you move there? mr. rogers. it was around in the--in july, around july. mr. liebeler. was oswald there? mr. rogers. he was there for a short period of time. mr. liebeler. you lived right next door to oswald? mr. rogers. my apartment was in the front and my window was right next--near his apartment. mr. liebeler. you met oswald and came to know him? did you ever meet him? mr. rogers. no; i never met him. he didn't bid the time to anyone. mr. liebeler. did you talk to him or anything? mr. rogers. no; never did. mr. liebeler. did you know what his name was? mr. rogers. just by mail coming in the box on the front. mr. liebeler. did you ever talk to his wife? mr. rogers. she spoke russian. she did bid the time of day, that's all, but he didn't. he wouldn't bid the time to no one. mr. liebeler. did they ever have any arguments that you know of? mr. rogers. some spats, but in russian, looked like. you know what i mean? mr. liebeler. they spoke russian and you couldn't understand what they were saying? mr. rogers. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. did you ever see oswald have any visitors at his apartment? mr. rogers. he had no one. had some kind of a dark fellow asked where he lived. mr. liebeler. did he appear to be a cuban? mr. rogers. yes; spanish type of person. mr. liebeler. was that in august, do you remember? mr. rogers. around that time. i believe it was around that time. mr. liebeler. now do you remember anybody else that visited oswald at his apartment? mr. rogers. probably at the time they had this--you know--fair play for cuba, something like that. i think they were radio interviewers, i think. looked like local people. didn't look like--heard him saying something about wanting to play on radio. that's all. mr. liebeler. you don't remember any other ones? mr. rogers. not that i know of unless i was at work. i wasn't there all the time. mr. liebeler. your wife was in the hospital part of this time, is that correct? mr. rogers. that's right. mr. liebeler. did you work at that time, sir? mr. rogers. no; i wasn't working at that time. see, mr. liebeler, i am on pension, you see. i am only allowed to make so much a year because of the pension, you see. mr. liebeler. i see. did you ever see oswald sitting on the front porch? mr. rogers. oh, yes; with books, reading. mr. liebeler. did he read a lot? mr. rogers. yes. mr. liebeler. did you ever see any rifle or firearms of any type in his possession at that time? mr. rogers. no; i never. we did see one time some--the mailman brought a big package in. i wouldn't say what it was, of course. i guess they checked that through the mail. mr. liebeler. when was that? mr. rogers. it was in the summer, some time before he left, somewhere around that time. mr. liebeler. oswald's apartment had a little porch in the front? mr. rogers. screened porch. mr. liebeler. it had blinds in it, too, that you could let down, did it not? mr. rogers. yes. mr. liebeler. so it would have been possible for him to have sat in that porch and you couldn't see him very well from the street? mr. rogers. he wouldn't discuss anything on the porch. he would go in the house. mr. liebeler. would it have been possible to sit in that porch and drop the blinds so that people couldn't see you? mr. rogers. it could be possible. i don't know. i never--i seen him sitting down there and go in and out, coming in and out. mr. liebeler. we talked to you previously out at the apartment, and my recollection is that you told us that some time in september, i believe, that a station wagon came and picked up mrs. oswald. mr. rogers. that was the time he left town. mr. liebeler. tell us about that. mr. rogers. the station wagon was visible. i called my wife. i said "well, he must be leaving." they were packing all the things. probably left the next night or sometime like i told you, the following night after. had the two things in his hand and goggles on like he was running out of there. i don't know what he was doing. mr. liebeler. tell us about those goggles. were they something like sunglasses? describe them. mr. rogers. i don't know. i couldn't say that. mr. liebeler. did you see what license plates the station wagon had on it? mr. rogers. no, mr. liebeler, i couldn't tell you on that. kind of a gray station wagon. he was putting the packing, everything in that himself. mr. liebeler. do you know when the station wagon left? mr. rogers. well, i told my wife--she said she might have left early in the morning before we got up, with the lady. mr. liebeler. you think that she might have left with the lady? mr. rogers. yes. then he left that night or late afternoon. went out in a hurry. left all the lights on. mr. liebeler. who was in the station wagon? was there another lady? mr. rogers. yes. mr. liebeler. did you see the station wagon leave? mr. rogers. we didn't see it leave, but it wasn't there when he left. there was nobody else evidently. mr. liebeler. did you see oswald at all after the station wagon left? mr. rogers. no; i didn't see him until that night. he slipped out of there. he was going out to catch the bus across the street. the bus stop is right across the street from us. mr. liebeler. you did see oswald come out of the apartment in the evening? mr. rogers. yes. we was sitting on the porch at that time. mr. liebeler. so it is clear to you that oswald did not leave with the ladies in the station wagon? mr. rogers. no; he didn't leave with them in the station wagon. it was the following evening he left on the bus with these two handbags. mr. liebeler. that was in the evening? mr. rogers. yes. mr. liebeler. he ran across the street and got on the bus? mr. rogers. that's right. mr. liebeler. did he get on the bus at the bus stop? mr. rogers. bus stop on the corner right opposite. mr. liebeler. toward the center of the city? mr. rogers. yes. mr. liebeler. did you see the bags that he had in his hand when he went out? mr. rogers. my wife seen some of them. mr. liebeler (handing pictures to witness). let me show you some pictures and see if these look like it. mr. rogers (indicating). this middle one, i know that ain't the type there. that's not the type. mr. liebeler (handing picture to witness). i show you a picture of a bag that has been marked as "commission exhibit no. ," and ask you if that looks like the bag. mr. rogers. that's it. that's it. mr. liebeler. does that look like one of the bags? mr. rogers. that looks to me like it was. mr. liebeler (handing picture to witness). now i show you a picture which we will mark rogers exhibit no. , showing two views of a bag. does it look like the one oswald had? mr. rogers. you mean--he had two of them. mr. liebeler. how many did he have? mr. rogers. he had two of them in my estimation, each one in one hand. they looked like these here to me, to my knowledge. i mean, yes. i don't think it was this type [indicating]. i would say this type [indicating]. mr. liebeler. and you are pointing to no. a- , which is a picture of commission exhibit no. and do you think he had two bags that looked like "commission exhibit no. ." did he carry both in one hand? mr. rogers. one in each hand. mr. liebeler. as far as you can tell, he did not have a bag similar to rogers exhibit no. ? mr. rogers. no, no. it was kind of daylight. you could see. you know what i mean? mr. liebeler. what makes you sure that he didn't have one like rogers exhibit no. ? is it a different size? mr. rogers. it was--they both look like the same size, and they were well packed. they were well stuffed. i know they wasn't light. i don't know what he had in them. mr. liebeler. so in your estimation, he had two bags like exhibit ? mr. rogers. if i am not mistaken, they are the two bags that my wife and i identified when they came over to the house, somebody from oklahoma. he was transferred down here. mr. liebeler. an fbi agent? mr. rogers. yes. mr. liebeler. they actually brought the bags over? mr. rogers. they had the pictures like this. mr. liebeler. did he show you pictures like these two that i have got here? mr. rogers. sure did. mr. liebeler. they had bags like exhibit ? mr. rogers. yes. this is the type. that's the green type of looking luggage. mr. liebeler. you say again that he did not have a bag that looked like rogers exhibit no. ? mr. rogers. yes. mr. liebeler. now, did oswald leave as far as you can tell on the same day that the station wagon left, or on the next day? mr. rogers. well, they packed that night and, yes; they left on the same day, the following evening. mr. liebeler. they packed the station wagon on one day and the next day you looked out and the station wagon was gone? mr. rogers. he left that following evening. i figured he was moving. i don't know. if he was moving, he was supposed to tell the landlord. mr. liebeler. did he talk to the landlord about it? mr. rogers. no; but she knew about it. he didn't talk to her. he didn't talk to nobody. he would give you the money and wouldn't say nothing. he was quiet himself, that's all. mr. liebeler (handing picture to witness). i am going to show you a picture that has been marked "bringuier exhibit no. ," and ask you if you recognize anybody in that picture. mr. rogers. wait. let me get my glasses on. i can see better this way. [examining picture.] no, mr. liebeler, i don't think. i don't think. no; i don't think i know any one in there. mr. liebeler (handing picture to witness). i show you a picture that has been marked "garner exhibit no. ," and ask you if you recognize any individual that is in that picture. mr. rogers. well, maybe he did identify him, but i never saw this man. no. that's when this happened? mr. garner did, but i didn't. no, i--if he did come around, i wasn't there. if i did, i would tell you, you know. mr. liebeler (handing picture to witness). i show you a picture that has been marked "pizzo exhibit no. -a," and ask you if you recognize that man. mr. rogers. no. i seen plenty people, but i don't know him either. if i did, i would tell you. mr. liebeler. all right. thank you very much, mr. rogers. mr. rogers. under oath, i tell you just exactly what i tell you, the same thing. as far as the boy is concerned, you know, he never spoke to anybody. go in and out, eat and clean. didn't nobody knew his business. mr. liebeler. he kept pretty much to himself? mr. rogers. yes. testimony of james lehrer the testimony of james lehrer was taken at : a.m., on july , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. liebeler. will you please stand and take the oath? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. lehrer. i do. mr. liebeler. my name is wesley j. liebeler. i am an attorney on the staff of the president's commission investigating the assassination of president kennedy. i have been authorized to take your testimony by the commission pursuant to authority granted to it by president johnson's executive order , dated november , , and joint resolution of congress, no. . under the commission's rules governing the taking of testimony, you are entitled to days' notice and to have an attorney here if you want to, and you are entitled to the usual privileges and rights concerning self incrimination and that sort of thing as far as answering my questions are concerned. i know that you have not had days' notice of this, but i understand that you are here voluntarily and that you are prepared to proceed without an attorney; is that correct? mr. lehrer. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. please state your name. mr. lehrer. james lehrer [spelling], l-e-h-r-e-r. mr. liebeler. when and where were you born? mr. lehrer. may , , wichita, kans. mr. liebeler. where do you live? mr. lehrer. dallas; west beverly. mr. liebeler. would you outline your educational background for us, please? mr. lehrer. high school, graduate of victoria college, university of missouri. mr. liebeler. what did you major in at the university? mr. lehrer. journalism. mr. liebeler. are you presently employed by the dallas times herald? mr. lehrer. yes. mr. liebeler. how long have you worked with them? mr. lehrer. nearly years. mr. liebeler. what is your job over there? mr. lehrer. i am a reporter. mr. liebeler. do you cover a specific beat? mr. lehrer. i cover the federal beat, labor, and politics--some politics. mr. liebeler. what did you do before you went to work with the dallas times herald? mr. lehrer. i was with the dallas morning news about years. mr. liebeler. before that? mr. lehrer. i was in the marine corps. i went there directly from school into the service. mr. liebeler. and then you came to work for the dallas morning news? mr. lehrer. i did. mr. liebeler. then you went to work for the dallas times herald and you are employed by them now? mr. lehrer. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. i have received information that you were in the office of the dallas times herald on the morning of november , ; is that correct? mr. lehrer. yes. mr. liebeler. would you tell us when you got there and what you did that morning and what you saw? mr. lehrer. well, it was thanksgiving and i got there about or : , something like that, and i don't remember specifically any stories that i worked on on that day. it was just a routine day, not a routine day--a holiday is not routine, because you don't work the whole day on a holiday, so i only worked until around noon that day. mr. liebeler. you got to the office about o'clock? mr. lehrer. about or : --something like that. mr. liebeler. do you know hunter schmidt, jr.? mr. lehrer. yes; i do. mr. liebeler. is he also employed as a reporter by the dallas times herald? mr. lehrer. yes. mr. liebeler. and he was at that time? mr. lehrer. right. mr. liebeler. did you see him in the office that morning? mr. lehrer. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. are you familiar with the fact that a story appeared in the dallas times herald on this day concerning a gunshop in irving, tex., at which oswald was supposed to have had some work done on a rifle? mr. lehrer. right. mr. liebeler. were you aware of how that story came into the office of the newspaper? mr. lehrer. yes; in a general way. the desk, or the city desk, which consists of the city editor and the assistant city editor or the rewrite staff--somewhere they got a tip that there was a fellow in irving who had mounted the sight or knew something about it. it was given to hunter to check out. i happened to be sitting over there. i do not normally work physically on the city desk, but all of us had been working on the assassination aspects and it had been a lot of my responsibility in particular, because so much of it was on my beat at that time, and somebody said they got this guy and they gave it to hunter to check out and i was sitting right next to hunter and when he checked it out--in other words--when he called. mr. liebeler. what did he do--do you remember? mr. lehrer. well, he just--he was talking to somebody on the telephone and he was given the checkout and he had the man's name before he called and he called somebody on the phone and i was doing something myself--i wasn't writing a story, but i was sitting there and he was talking to this guy, talking to somebody on the telephone, let's put it that way, and when he got through he said something about, "yeah--this is it; that's right." or, it was words to that effect, and then i looked at his notes, you know, and said, "that's a hell of a story," or something like that, and about that time somebody said, "don't talk about it, write it." so he gave it to, i think it was--i'm not sure about this, but i think it was in a general story of the assassination developments of that day, which we were running every day, and i think a rewrite man may have taken the notes and written the story. i don't recall seeing hunter write the story. mr. liebeler. do you know the name of the man that schmidt was talking to? mr. lehrer. i can only assume it was ryder. mr. liebeler. what leads you to that assumption? mr. lehrer. well, it was just circumstantially--i believe it was. i mean, he was given this name and the information that this man is supposed to have mounted the sight on oswald's rifle. mr. liebeler. and the name he was given was dial ryder; is that right? mr. lehrer. that's right; that's right. mr. liebeler. and he was told to check that story? mr. lehrer. that's right. mr. liebeler. and he proceeded to do it? mr. lehrer. he proceeded to do it. he dialed a number and got somebody on the line and started talking and when he got through, he said, "that's right." i looked at his notes--i don't have a specific recollection of what the notes said, but i remember that he had some quotes there, i mean, he had some information in the notes that verified the story, and at that time--one of the reasons i was interested in it--i was working on the story we finally ran the next day on the fbi looking for where oswald might have possibly test fired this rifle, so that was one of the reasons i was particularly interested in it, because i wasn't coordinating our assassination coverage, but i was vitally involved in it, i would say, at that time, and i was working on this, and i think he gave the notes to a rewrite man. i'm not sure, but i don't know what happened after that. mr. liebeler. in any event, you have the specific recollection that schmidt engaged in a conversation over the telephone for some period of time at a time when he was supposed to be checking out this story of the gunsmith in irving? mr. lehrer. that's right. mr. liebeler. after this conversation was over, he indicated to you that the story checked out? mr. lehrer. that's right. mr. liebeler. subsequently that day the story, in fact, appeared in the newspaper, indicating that there was evidence to show that oswald had taken his rifle to this particular gunshop. mr. lehrer. right. mr. liebeler. have you discussed this situation with schmidt recently? mr. lehrer. no; actually, i talked to him about it briefly this morning. he was somewhat--he didn't recall who was sitting next to him and i told him i had, because i didn't think there was any problem, and i just mentioned that. now, the fbi--one thing--as far as that's concerned--and as far as the fact that somebody might think that hunter and i got together on this--the day the fbi got this, and apparently it was sent down by the commission who said, "check this out"--that ryder apparently--there was some question about it--and the fbi came up there and a guy by the name of--well, there were two agents from oklahoma city who were working a special on the assassination at that time--just the assassination story. it was petrakis and some other guy--i don't remember the other guy's name, but they came up and talked to ken smart. you see, there was no byline on the story and they said, "who wrote the story?" and smart apparently said he didn't know and they went back and looked in the files and that indicated who wrote it and so ken came over to me and showed me the story with petrakis and this other guy there, and he said, "did you write the story?" and i said, "no, hunter schmidt wrote the story"; that's how they found out hunter even wrote it--where he got the information was when i told him and so then we talked about this thing briefly, you know, and ken said, "apparently ryder is saying that he didn't talk to anybody at the time," and i told smart and petrakis and this other fellow here that i was sitting right next to the fellow and that he was talking to somebody and i assumed it was ryder and then i hadn't even mentioned it to hunter, because hunter was not in the office that day and petrakis finally got ahold of him at home on the phone, i believe, or talked to him later and hunter didn't even know until this morning. as i say, then hunter told me that--it was you, i believe, that told him that there was a witness who could verify that there was such a conversation and he said, "who is that, what are you talking about?" and he said, "why didn't you tell me before?" i said i didn't think there would be any problem--i just mentioned it to martha jo in passing here one day. mr. liebeler. you say this morning schmidt told you he had been over here last night and he had been questioned? mr. lehrer. yes. mr. liebeler. did he tell you the details of his experience last night? mr. lehrer. a little bit. mr. liebeler. he told you that mr. ryder had been in here? mr. lehrer. yes; that ryder was here. mr. liebeler. but in point of fact and indicating for the record, the way the information came most recently to my attention, that you had overheard this, because mrs. martha jo stroud, an assistant u.s. attorney in this office, told me that you had come over here after we had asked schmidt to come over and testify. mr. lehrer. right. mr. liebeler. and you mentioned to her in passing that you thought probably we wanted schmidt to come over so we could ask him about this newspaper story that was written in connection with the irving sports shop; isn't that right? mr. lehrer. well, specifically, when martha jo called hunter and told him that somebody from the warren commission wanted to talk to him on a certain day, hunter came over to me and said, "somebody from washington is coming in," and you know, i didn't know that anybody was coming in. you know, you are unannounced on your trips here and this is part of my responsibility to cover warren commission people when they come and i try to do it, and i said--we discussed, "maybe they want to talk to you about this deal, because the fbi had talked to you before," and so the next day when i was down talking to martha jo, we were talking about it and i indicated to her this was probably what it was. i told her what it was probably about and i said there was no problem--i was just sitting there and just sitting there very casually. mr. liebeler. you don't have any doubt in your mind whatsoever that schmidt actually talked to ryder that morning, do you? mr. lehrer. no. mr. liebeler. you are aware of the fact, of course, that ryder denies talking to this man? mr. lehrer. that's what i understand. mr. liebeler. and you have no information that would suggest any reason why ryder would deny this? mr. lehrer. i can't think of any reason unless he denies the information, if he just denies the technicality that he didn't talk to a newspaperman or didn't talk to schmidt specifically, that's one thing; if he's denying the whole bit, that's conceivable. mr. liebeler. no; he doesn't deny the whole bit, he just denies that he was the one that gave that story out. mr. lehrer. i see; i don't know what it could be in that. mr. liebeler. can you think of any reason why schmidt might be lying about it? mr. lehrer. no; he had nothing to gain by it. it was just a story, and my goodness, we were working--i mean--there were a multitude of stories and a multitude of checking out and we were deluged just like everybody was with rumors and things of this and that and he would have no reason to write something that wasn't true. the fact is, he didn't even have his name on it, so he didn't have anything to gain by it. mr. liebeler. all right, thank you very much. mr. lehrer. thank you. mr. liebeler. we appreciate your cooperation. mr. lehrer. all right. affidavit of bardwell d. odum the following affidavit was executed by bardwell d. odum on july , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy state of texas, _county of dallas, ss_: i, bardwell d. odum, having first been duly sworn, depose as follows: i am presently a special agent of the federal bureau of investigation, u.s. department of justice, and have been employed in such a capacity since june , . on november , , while acting officially in my capacity as a special agent of the federal bureau of investigation, i obtained a photograph of an unknown individual, furnished to the federal bureau of investigation by the central intelligence agency, and proceeded to the executive inn, a motel, at dallas, texas, where marina oswald was staying. in view of the source of this picture, and, in order to remove all background data which might possibly have disclosed the location where the picture was taken, i trimmed off the background. the straight cuts made were more quickly done than a complete trimming of the silhouette and i considered them as effective for the desired purpose. i desired to show this photograph to marina oswald in an attempt to identify the individual portrayed in the photograph and to determine if he was an associate of lee harvey oswald. it was raining and almost dark. i went to the door of marina oswald's room and knocked, identifying myself. marguerite oswald opened the door slightly and, upon being informed that i wished to speak to marina oswald, told me that marina oswald was completely exhausted and could not be interviewed. marguerite oswald did not admit me to the motel room. i told her i desired to show a photograph to marina oswald, and marguerite oswald again said that marina was completely exhausted and could not be interviewed due to that fact. i then showed marguerite oswald the photograph in question. she looked at it briefly and stated that she had never seen this individual. i then departed the executive inn. the conversation with marguerite oswald and the exhibition of the photograph took place while i was standing outside the door to the room and marguerite oswald was standing inside with the door slightly ajar. attached hereto are two photographic copies of the front and back of a photograph.[g] i have examined these copies and they are exact copies of the photograph of the unknown individual which i showed to mrs. marguerite oswald on november , . signed this th day of july . (s) bardwell d. odum, bardwell d. odum. [g] the photograph referred to in the above affidavit of special agent bardwell d. odum appears in the exhibit volumes as odum exhibit no. . affidavit of james r. malley the following affidavit was executed by james r. malley on july , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy district of columbia, _ss_: i, james r. malley, inspector, federal bureau of investigation, department of justice, being first duly sworn, depose as follows: in accordance with a request by mr. howard p. willens, a member of the staff of the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy, i transmitted to the commission on february , , a copy of a photograph of an unidentified man which was made available to the federal bureau of investigation by the central intelligence agency. prior to transmitting the aforementioned copy of this photograph to the president's commission, i used a scissors and trimmed from the photograph all background which surrounded the head, shoulders and arms of the unidentified individual. i did this, inasmuch as the central intelligence agency had previously advised that it had no objection to this bureau furnishing a copy of this photograph to the president's commission with all background eliminated. i have examined a copy of commission exhibit , which is attached,[h] and it appears such exhibit was made from the copy of the photograph of the unidentified individual which i cropped and transmitted to mr. willens on february , . to my knowledge, the identity of the unknown individual depicted in the copy of the photograph which i transmitted to mr. willens on february , , has not been established. i have reviewed records of the federal bureau of investigation in this particular matter and such records disclose that a duplicate copy of this same photograph was cropped in a different shape to remove background by special agent bardwell d. odum of the dallas office of the federal bureau of investigation and was then exhibited to mrs. marguerite oswald by special agent odum on november , . signed this th day of july , at washington, d.c. (s) james r. malley, james r. malley. [h] the photograph referred to in the above affidavit of inspector james r. malley is identical to commission exhibit no. and appears in the exhibit volumes. affidavit of richard helms the following affidavit was executed by richard helms on august , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy state of virginia, _county of fairfax, ss_: richard helms, being duly sworn says: . i am the deputy director for plans of the central intelligence agency. . i base this affidavit on my personal knowledge of the affairs of the central intelligence agency and on detailed inquiries of those officers and employees within my supervision who would have knowledge about any photographs furnished by that agency to the federal bureau of investigation. . i have personally examined the photograph which has been marked commission exhibit no. , a copy of which is attached to the affidavit of inspector james r. malley, dated july , , and the photograph attached to the affidavit of special agent bardwell d. odum dated july , . . those photographs are partial copies of a photograph furnished by the central intelligence agency to the federal bureau of investigation on november , . they are referred to as partial only because, on information and belief, odum and malley personally trimmed or cropped their copies of the photograph to exclude the background against which the individual portrayed in these photographs is depicted in the original photograph. . the figure portrayed in those photographs is the same individual portrayed in the original photograph. . the original photograph was taken outside of the continental united states sometime during the period july , to november , . signed this th day of august . (s) richard helms. richard helms. affidavit of peter megargee brown the following affidavit was executed by peter megargee brown on may , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy state of new york, _county of new york, ss_: peter megargee brown, being duly sworn, says: i am a member of the firm of cadwalader, wickersham & taft, counsel for the community service society and am familiar with the papers and records in the possession of the society relating to lee harvey oswald. this firm has caused a search of the files of community service society under my supervision which reveals one file entitled "marguerite claverie oswald # ". the foregoing file is now in the possession of the deponent. to the best of my knowledge this file contains the only papers relating to lee harvey oswald in the possession or control of the community service society. accordingly under my supervision photostatic copies have been made of this entire file, such copies being attached to this affidavit. in information and belief the attached photostatic copies[i] are of the entire file and comprise all the papers relating to lee harvey oswald in the possession and control of the community service society or its counsel. signed this th day of may . (s) peter megargee brown, peter megargee brown. [i] the attached photostatic copies referred to in the above affidavit appear in the exhibit volumes as brown exhibit no. . affidavit of gary taylor the following affidavit was executed by gary taylor on august , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy state of texas, _county of dallas, ss_: i, gary taylor, orlando court, apartment , dallas, tex., being sworn, say: . as i testified in my deposition, i went with lee harvey oswald on or about november , , to a gasoline service station in fort worth, texas, where oswald rented a u-haul trailer which we were to use and did use in transporting oswald's household goods and paraphernalia from mrs. hall's home in fort worth to the oswalds' elsbeth street apartment in dallas. . the rental charge for the trailer was about $ . and was paid by oswald. i made the cash deposit to secure the return of the trailer. i returned the trailer that afternoon and picked up the deposit. signed this th day of august . (s) gary e. taylor, gary e. taylor. affidavit of francis l. martello the following affidavit was executed by francis l. martello on july , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy state of louisiana, _parish of orleans, ss_: i, lt. francis l. martello, police headquarters, tulane avenue, new orleans, la., being first duly sworn, depose and say: . i am a lieutenant in the new orleans police department. . when a suspect is arrested, an arrest report is filled out. the notations concerning the height and the weight of the suspect are the figures supplied by him. . when a suspect is booked, he is fingerprinted, photographed, weighed and measured. thus, the weight figure on the bureau of identification card would be the result of an actual weigh-in. signed this st day of july , at new orleans, la. (s) francis l. martello, lieutenant francis l. martello. affidavit of john corporon the following affidavit was executed by john corporon on july , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy state of louisiana, _parish of orleans, ss_: john corporon, being duly sworn, says: . my name is john corporon. i am and have been since at least august , , head of the news department of wdsu-tv and radio, new orleans. . as such i am familiar with the programs broadcast over both wdsu-tv and wdsu radio. . mr. william stuckey has never had any tv or radio show known as "latin american focus" on that station or, to the best of my knowledge, any other radio or tv station. . in august of mr. stuckey had a radio program called "latin listening post" which was broadcast some of the time over wdsu radio. . lee harvey oswald appeared briefly on stuckey's radio program known as "latin listening post" on august , . . to the best of my knowledge oswald never appeared on any other tv or radio program in connection with mr. stuckey or any other program either over radio or television in the city of new orleans with the exception of a radio program known as "conversation carte blanche" on which oswald appeared on august , and on a brief tv news program following the broadcast of "conversation carte blanche" on that date. signed this th day of july . (s) john r. corporon, john corporon. affidavit of mrs. j. u. allen the following affidavit was executed by mrs. j. u. allen on june , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy state of mississippi, _county of claiborne, ss_: mrs. j. u. allen, port gibson, claiborne county, state of louisiana, being duly sworn, says: . i am secretary of chamberlain-hunt academy, a boys military academy at port gibson, mississippi, and i am in charge and custody of its books and records. . i have examined the records and files of chamberlain-hunt academy for the years through , both inclusive, which are kept in the regular and usual course of business under my supervision. it appears from those records that john edward pic and robert lee oswald, half brothers and sons of marguerite oswald (and for a portion of the period through was mrs. edwin a. ekdahl), entered chamberlain-hunt academy in september , on transfer from davy crockett school in dallas, texas. they continued as students during the school years - , - , and - . said records show that john edward pic was transferred to arlington heights high school, fort worth, texas, in september . the records do not show the school to which robert lee oswald was transferred at the end of the academic year - . . the exhibits marked chamberlain-hunt academy exhibits nos. to [j] are verifax copies of the records of chamberlain-hunt academy respecting the attendance of john edward pic and robert lee oswald as students at said academy. said exhibits were prepared under my personal supervision and direction. . included in the files of chamberlain-hunt academy are various items of correspondence. chamberlain-hunt academy exhibits nos. to are true and correct verifax & thermofax copies of said items of correspondence. the verifax copies were prepared under my personal supervision and direction. signed this th day of june . (s) mrs. j. u. allen, mrs. j. u. allen. [j] chamberlain-hunt academy exhibits nos. - were subsequently relabeled allen exhibits nos. - , respectively. affidavit of lillian murret the following affidavit was executed by lillian murret on june , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy state of louisiana, _parish of orleans, ss_: lillian murret, being duly sworn, says: . affiant is the sister of marguerite claverie oswald. . in the month of may , marguerite claverie oswald sent affiant a snapshot photograph of herself and her husband, edwin a. ekdahl, taken on their marriage day, may , . . lillian murret exhibit no. is the original of the aforesaid snapshot photograph. affiant recalls the physical appearances of her sister marguerite claverie oswald and of her newly wed husband edwin a. ekdahl as of the year . the lady pictured in the snapshot photograph, which is lillian murret exhibit no. , is affiant's sister marguerite claverie oswald. the gentleman pictured in the photograph (lillian murret exhibit no. ) is edwin a. ekdahl, the husband of marguerite claverie oswald. the photograph is in each instance an accurate and true photographic representation of mr. and mrs. edwin a. ekdahl as they looked and appeared in may of . . lillian murret exhibit no. , when received by affiant in may , bore on the reverse side the inscription or endorsement: "may th--happy though married." affiant is familiar with the handwriting of her sister marguerite claverie oswald. the aforesaid longhand inscription on the reverse side of lillian murret exhibit no. is in the handwriting of affiant's sister marguerite claverie oswald. . lillian murret exhibit no. is in the same condition now as it was when received by affiant in may of . signed this d day of june . (s) mrs. lillian murret, lillian murret. affidavit of john w. burcham the following affidavit was executed by john w. burcham on june , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy state of texas, _county of travis, ss_: i, john w. burcham, sometimes referred to as jack w. bucham, being duly sworn, say: . i am a resident of austin, texas, and am chief of unemployment insurance of the texas employment commission at austin, texas. . burcham exhibit no. , consisting of pages, is a photostatic copy of my report of november , , respecting the interstate unemployment compensation claim of lee harvey oswald and of the various claimant payment records and documents described in said report. . burcham exhibits nos. and have been personally examined by me. from my knowledge of procedures and operations of the insurance department of the texas employment commission, burcham exhibit no. appears to me to be the copy of the form b- mailed to l. h. oswald by the texas employment commission on april , , and burcham exhibit no. appears to be the document mailed by the texas employment commission along with the final payment mailed to l. h. oswald notifying him this was his last payment. signed this th day of june . (s) john w. burcham, john w. burcham. affidavit of emmett charles barbe, jr. the following affidavit was executed by emmett charles barbe, jr., on june , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy state of louisiana, _parish of orleans, ss_: emmett charles barbe, jr. of new orleans, la., being duly sworn, says: . i am employed by william b. reily company, inc., as maintenance foreman. the william b. reily company plant is located at magazine street, new orleans, louisiana. i have been employed by that company for five years. during the year i was serving as maintenance foreman. . william b. reily company is engaged in the roasting, grinding, canning, bagging, and sale of coffee. in its roasting, grinding, canning, and bagging operations a great deal of machinery consisting of chains, conveyer belts, motors, blowers, automatic hoppers, grinders, etc., distributed over some five floors of the premises is employed in said operations. said machinery must be kept well greased and oiled. this work required the full time of one man. . lee harvey oswald became employed by william b. reily company, inc. as a greaser and oiler maintenance man on may , . his employment terminated on july , . during the latter portion of his employment, i served as his immediate supervisor. as his supervisor i was aware of oswald's performance or lack thereof of his duties. . there were occasions from time to time when i was unable to locate oswald in and about the premises and learned that he was in the habit of absenting himself from the premises without leave and visiting a service station establishment adjacent to the reily coffee company known as alba's crescent city garage. furthermore, oswald had become quite indifferent to the performance of his duties. i spoke with him from time to time about his absences and his indifferences, all to no avail. ultimately i recommended to my superiors that oswald be discharged. my request was granted and he was discharged on july , . signed this th day of june . (s) emmett charles barbe, jr. emmett charles barbe, jr. affidavit of hilda l. smith the following affidavit was executed by hilda l. smith on june , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy state of louisiana, _parish of orleans, ss_: i, hilda l. smith, st. charles, apartment , new orleans, la., being first duly sworn, depose and say: . that i was employed by the louisiana labor department, division of employment security, employment service, and unemployment compensation, camp street, new orleans , louisiana, on april and april , . . i interviewed lee harvey oswald when he applied for his initial interstate claim. . i recall that when i interviewed him, he was very evasive. he was very abrupt and i considered him unusual. i only saw him this one time since others handled his continued interstate claim. . the signature appearing on the attached interstate claim, labelled louisiana department of labor exhibit no. is my signature.[k] signed this th day of june . (s) hilda l. smith, hilda l. smith. [k] louisiana department of labor exhibit no. was subsequently relabeled as smith exhibit no. . affidavit of j. rachal the following affidavit was executed by j. rachal on june , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy state of louisiana, _parish of orleans, ss_: j. rachal, of new orleans, la., being duly sworn says: . my name is j. rachal. i am now and have for a number of years past been employed by the louisiana department of labor, division of employment security, professional unit. . in my capacity as placement interviewer in the professional unit of the louisiana state employment security division of the louisiana department of labor, i had occasion to become acquainted with one lee harvey oswald. i recall his being in my office and at my desk on april , , which was his initial visit. . at that time louisiana department of labor exhibit number [l] was filled out, in part by mr. oswald and in part by me. said exhibit number is the registration card so made out by lee harvey oswald and myself, recording oswald's registration as an unemployed worker who had come from texas and was seeking employment in new orleans. . the hand-printing, with the exception of the block entitled "skills, knowledge, abilities, and experience," and the notations in the block entitled "special information and employment counseling statement," and the letters "rif" in the upper right-hand corner of the inside face of exhibit number , is that of the applicant, lee harvey oswald. the writing other than that of lee harvey oswald is that of affiant. the signature appearing at the foot of the inside face of exhibit number is that of affiant. exhibit number is part of the books and records of the aforesaid division of employment security of the louisiana department of labor, kept in the usual and regular course of business. . exhibit number reflects that lee harvey oswald first called at the unemployment division on april , , and at that time was interviewed by me and supplied the personal data and prior employment and experience facts recited on exhibit no. . . upon noting that oswald had listed photographer as one of his skills, i telephonically contacted the george reppel studio, elysian fields, to determine if they needed the services of a photographer. upon learning that they could employ the services of a photographer, i directed oswald to report to that company for possible employment, and i recorded that reference on the reverse side of exhibit number . a few days later i recontacted the studio and learned that oswald had not appeared there. . exhibit number also reflects the fact that on april , , oswald again reported to the unemployment compensation office at camp street, which is the claims office, and filed an interstate claim against the state of texas for unemployment compensation. this was a reactivation of his claim. i had learned from my earlier interview that oswald had therefore been employed for relatively short periods of time at fort worth, texas, and dallas, texas. the letters "rif" appearing in the upper right-hand corner of exhibit number are an abbreviation for the words "reduction in force." the presence of those letters on exhibit number means that oswald advised me that the reason for his termination of employment at jaggars, chiles, stovall of dallas, texas, was a reduction in force, a prerequisite to a valid claim for unemployment compensation. . i recall that oswald was neatly dressed with a suit, dress shirt, and tie on the occasion of our initial interview. on july , , he was more casually dressed. . oswald returned after the april , , visit to our office on july , . between the april and july dates, the application card had been green-lined in the right hand column either because the applicant had not come in in four weeks or his claim had been cancelled or terminated sometime during that period. sometime subsequent to july , , oswald's application card was again green-lined for one of the two reasons above stated. this application card is marked exhibit number . . i recall that oswald returned some time, either late in july or the forepart of august , seeking employment assistance. in the meantime, the incident involving the fair play for cuba committee had come to my attention. i had seen oswald on a television broadcast showing him distributing fair play for cuba handbills. there was reference in the broadcast to his having lived in russia, marrying a russian girl, and returning to this country. i discussed the matter with my supervisor, miss hope kristofferson. as a result, it was determined that we should not undertake to furnish employment references for him. this was the last contact i had with mr. oswald. . louisiana department of labor exhibit numbers and [m] are also records of the division of employment security of the department of labor of louisiana in new orleans. the forms themselves are identical with exhibit number , and the recorded information is substantially identical with the information set forth in exhibit number . exhibits numbers and were prepared in another section of my division and reflect the fact that on may , , oswald was referred to commerce pictures company of new orleans for possible employment as a developer, and the initials "nr" appearing in green crayon on the reverse side of exhibit number reflect the fact that oswald did not report to the commerce picture company. serial number appearing under the heading "remarks" on the same line on which the green crayoned letters "nr" appear means that the unemployed person failed to respond and that his unemployment compensation would be delayed one week to make further determination of the applicant's status. . inasmuch as oswald was an interstate claimant and the libel was against the state of texas, his weekly appearances for the purposes of keeping his interstate claim alive were furnished to the texas employment commission in austin, texas, and they in turn would issue an unemployment check which would be mailed directly to oswald. oswald's weekly appearances at our office were recorded on form -b- . signed this d day of june . (s) john russell rachal, j. rachal. [l] louisiana department of labor exhibit no. was subsequently relabeled rachal exhibit no. . [m] louisiana department of labor exhibits nos. and were subsequently relabeled rachal exhibits nos. and , respectively. affidavit of bobb hunley the following affidavit was executed by bobb hunley on june , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy state of louisiana, _parish of orleans, ss_: i, bobb hunley, employed by the louisiana labor department, division of employment security, employment service, and unemployment compensation, camp street, new orleans , la., being first duly sworn, depose and say: . that i recall handling lee harvey oswald's interstate claims at the division of employment security office. . generally there is a line of claimants with their ib- forms which they have previously filled out. i sign them and fill in blanks four through eight. . i recall nothing unusual about lee harvey oswald. he usually wore a t-shirt and light windbreaker. . we do not check to see if the claimant has contacted the places listed in item of the ib- form. thus, i have no knowledge of whether oswald contacted the employers he listed. . the signatures appearing on the attached interstate claims, labelled as louisiana department of labor exhibit nos. , , , and , and the interstate request for recommendation of monetary determination, louisiana department of labor exhibit nos. and are my signatures.[n] signed this th day of june . (s) bobb w. hunley, bobb hunley. [n] louisiana department of labor exhibits nos. - were subsequently relabeled hunley exhibits nos. - , respectively. affidavit of robert j. creel the following affidavit was executed by robert j. creel on june , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy state of louisiana, _parish of orleans, ss_: robert j. creel, of new orleans, la., being duly sworn, says: . my name is robert j. creel. i am employed by the state of louisiana, department of labor, division of employment security, employment service and unemployment compensation, camp street, new orleans, louisiana, and have been so employed since prior to the year . . i am familiar with the records and documents maintained by said division of employment security. . the several louisiana department of labor exhibits nos. through ,[o] both inclusive, which have been submitted to me and which i have examined are either original or exact copies of records of the state of louisiana, department of labor, division of employment security, unemployment insurance service, maintained by it in the usual and regular course of business. said exhibits relate to the interstate claim of lee harvey oswald against the state of texas, and record the investigation and disposition of said claim by the state of louisiana and the state of texas. signed this th day of june, . (s) robert j. creel, robert j. creel. [o] louisiana department of labor exhibits nos. - were subsequently relabeled creel exhibits nos. - , respectively. affidavit of helen p. cunningham the following affidavit was executed by helen p. cunningham on june , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy state of texas, _county of dallas, ss_: mrs. helen p. cunningham, being duly sworn, says: . i am in the employ of the texas employment commission as an employment counselor. as appears from my deposition i had occasion in my official capacity to counsel with lee harvey oswald. i am familiar with the official books and records of the texas employment commission maintained at its dallas, texas, office. cunningham exhibit no. is the original copy of the counseling record card which was prepared in the course of and in connection with the counseling service rendered by me. . all of the handwriting appearing on both sides of the counseling record card is in my hand and consists of entries made by me at the time i interviewed lee harvey oswald on october and , . the entries under the portion of the exhibit entitled "counselor's notes" reflect that oswald was referred on october , , for a position at harrell and huntington, architects, for a position as messenger at $ . an hour, and thereafter to jaggars printing for a position as photo-printing trainee at $ . an hour. the entry " - - " on the face of the counseling record card reflects the fact that oswald had obtained employment at jaggars printing and that the case was closed successfully. . on the face of the card is reflected the fact that mr. don brooks, counselor in the industrial division of the texas employment commission, interviewed oswald previous to october , and , . . as it appears from the entries in my hand on the reverse side of cunningham exhibit no. , i recorded the fact that i obtained oswald's "general aptitude test" battery results from the fort worth office of the texas employment commission. i concluded after examining the gatb obtained from the fort worth office and after interviewing oswald that because he was in great financial need for immediate employment, that i should classify him for clerical work and i noted on the face of the card the proper clerical code, being -x . . i also recorded the fact that on october , , oswald was referred to jaggars-chiles-stovall printing company as a photo-print trainee and that oswald was enthusiastic about the possibility of his being employed. i also recorded the fact that oswald reported on october , , that he had obtained the jaggars-chiles-stovall position and that he was pleased. . in my counseling with oswald and as appears from my entry under the heading "other plans" oswald told me that he hoped to develop through a work-study program at dallas college or arlington state qualification for responsible junior executive employment but that this must be delayed because of his and his family's immediate financial needs and responsibilities. . the notation "d. brooks" appearing on the face of cunningham exhibit no. refers to don brooks, who is identified above; my signature appears to the right of the notation of mr. brooks' name. i wrote "d. brooks" name on the face of cunningham exhibit no. . . cunningham exhibits -a, -a and -a are, respectively, originals of cunningham exhibits , and . . the green-ink entry on the facing side of cunningham exhibit no. -a, " - - ", means that on that date it was confirmed that oswald was employed. the succeeding entry being " - - " records the fact that oswald came to the commission on that date, seeking employment; he having lost his position with jaggars-chiles-stovall. the succeeding entry " - - " records the fact that oswald visited the commission offices in further pursuit of employment. the succeeding entry, which is in green crayon, " - - " when considered with the entry dated " - - " in the referral section of the exhibit, records the fact that on that day oswald was mailed a call-in card for possible referral to texas power and light company for a position as meter reader but failed to respond. the next entry on the face of cunningham exhibit no. -a which is "ri- - - " records the fact that his case was reactivated as of that date and the final entry " - - " in green crayon records the closing of his case due to his having obtained employment. this entry is related to the final entry in the referral section of cunningham exhibit no. -a which recites under the heading "remarks" that at : a.m. on october , , it was ascertained by robert l. adams that oswald had obtained employment. signed this th day of june . (s) helen p. cunningham, helen p. cunningham. affidavit of theodore frank gangl the following affidavit was executed by theodore frank gangl on june , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy state of texas, _county of dallas, ss_: i, theodore frank gangl, mohawk drive, dallas, tex., being duly sworn, depose and say: . that i am plant superintendent for the padgett printing corporation, north industrial, dallas, texas. . on october , , i interviewed lee harvey oswald, who had applied for employment in response to an advertisement the padgett printing corporation placed in the local newspaper. we were seeking a typesetter in the composing room. . oswald was well dressed and neat. he made a favorable impression on the foreman of the department to whom i introduced oswald. since oswald had worked in a trade plant i was interested in him as a possible employee. . oswald filled out the application. padgett printing corporation exhibit no. [p] is a photostatic copy of the original application which was filled in during the course of my interview with oswald. the original application was prepared and maintained among the records of padgett printing corporation in the usual and regular course of its business. the exhibit is a copy of the application as it was when it was completed by me on or about october , . it is entirely in oswald's handwriting except for my initials in the blank, "interviewed by", the date, the word "over", and the handwriting on the reverse side, all of which are in my handwriting. . oswald said he could be reached at the irving, texas, phone number he listed on the application, and he suggested particular periods of the week he would most likely be available to respond to a telephone call. . shortly after the interview, i called mr. stovall at jaggars-chiles-stovall, where oswald had previously worked. mr. stovall was not there, so i spoke with somebody who had worked with oswald there. he implied that oswald's fellow employees did not like him because he was propagandizing and had been seen reading a foreign newspaper. . i later talked with mr. robert stovall, who is a friend of mine, and he said oswald could not get along there and he could not adapt himself to the type of work assigned to him. . as a result of this conversation i wrote the comments that appear on the back of the application and decided that we would not hire him. . i called oswald at the irving, texas, telephone number he had written on the application and told him that we had hired somebody with better qualifications. signed this th day of june . (s) theo. f. gangl, theodore f. gangl. [p] padgett printing corp. exhibit no. was subsequently relabeled gangl exhibit no. . affidavit of gene graves the following affidavit was executed by gene graves on june , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy state of texas, _county of tarrent, ss_: my name is gene graves and i am employed as a secretary with the leslie welding co., inc., e-north vacek, fort worth, tex. i certify that the attached copies[q] of time cards of lee harvey oswald are true and correct. signed this th day of june . (s) gene graves, gene graves. [q] these attachments were subsequently relabeled graves exhibit no. . affidavit of robert l. adams the following affidavit was executed by robert l. adams on august , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy state of texas, _county of dallas, ss_: i, robert l. adams, being duly sworn, say: . i am now, and during all of the year was an employee of the texas employment commission as an employment interviewer. as appears from my deposition, i had occasion, during the month of october, , to refer lee harvey oswald to several employment opportunities that had come to the attention of the texas employment commission. . i am familiar with the official books and records of the texas employment commission maintained at its dallas, texas, office. cunningham exhibit -a is the original of the texas employment commission employment, application, counseling, and referral card or record, familiarly known as an "e- ," respecting lee harvey oswald. it was prepared and maintained in the usual course of the business and services rendered by the texas employment commission. the entries thereon are true and correct. . cunningham exhibit -a is a single-fold card. the last three lines of entries on the lower portion of the inside (when folded) of cunningham exhibit -a are in my hand. all of those entries were made by me. . at the time that my deposition was taken, i did not have before me either cunningham exhibit -a or a copy or duplicate thereof. however, since that time i have had an opportunity to examine cunningham exhibit -a. this has served to refresh my recollection of my contacts with lee harvey oswald and the job employment opportunity references which i made for him on october , , and , . . as appears from the last three sets of entries in my hand on the lower portion of the inside pages of cunningham exhibit -a: (a) on october , , the texas employment commission had on hand an order from the solid state electronics company of texas for a sales clerk at an indicated compensation of $ per month, for permanent employment, for which they desired the commission to refer an applicant. on that day i called bl - , which is the telephone number in irving, texas, that appears on the face of cunningham exhibit -a. i was told that oswald was not in. i left a message with the person who answered, requesting that mr. oswald contact me. the entry "left msg to call under the column headed "remarks" is my notation of the fact that i made the telephone call and left the message on october , as i have just stated. oswald contacted me the next day either by telephone or in person in the commission offices. my present recollection does not serve me to say which. i had in the meantime contacted the prospective employer and discussed with him the matter of oswald's qualifications for the position they had in mind. as a result of that conversation, i had received authority to send oswald for an interview. since i had authority to refer oswald, i did not call the prospective employer again, but sent oswald directly. accordingly, the word "direct," which i wrote in the column headed "remarks," records that fact. later that day i personally checked with solid state electronics company of texas and was advised that oswald had followed through on my job reference, had been interviewed, but had not been hired. the initials "nh" that appear under the column headed "results" mean "not hired." i made that entry when i learned that oswald had responded to the job opportunity but had not been hired. (b) on october , , i referred oswald on a clerk trainee job opportunity at $ . an hour with the burton-dixie company of dallas. i made this reference directly, that is, while he was in the texas employment commission offices. later that day i checked with burton-dixie company and learned that oswald had responded to the reference but had not been hired. the word "direct" appearing under the column headed "remarks" is my recording of the fact that i referred oswald directly to the employer on this order. (c) on october , , i was advised by mr. roy of trans texas airways that the company was contemplating expansion and that he would need possibly as many as twelve or fourteen ramp agents, as they are called by the airlines industry; we call them baggage or cargo handlers. he advised me of the minimum qualifications and asked me to send out job applicants who met them. he advised that the salary was $ per month and that the employment was permanent. oswald was one of the possible applicants whom i referred for interview on this order. my best recollection is that on that day i called the bl - irving, texas, telephone number listed on the face of cunningham exhibit -a. i learned from the person who answered the phone that oswald was not there. i left a message with that person that oswald should contact me at the commission. my further recollection is that the following morning at : o'clock i again called the bl - irving, texas, number and learned from the person who answered that oswald was not there and that he had in the meantime obtained employment and was working. i thereupon made the entry, appearing in the column headed "remarks," which reads: "working : a - rla," in order to record the information i had received as a result of my telephone call. on the following day, october , , i "green dated" the face of cunningham exhibit -a. this means, as appears from the face of cunningham exhibit -a, that i entered in green crayon the date october , , which is our way of recording the fact that the applicant is no longer available for employment. the initials "nr" appearing under the column headed "results" mean "non-report" or, in other words, that the man referred on the job application did not report. i included that designation under the column headed "results" as a result of the information i received when i made the foregoing telephone call at : in the morning of october , . inasmuch as i did not talk with oswald either by telephone or in person in connection with this job order, i do not know whether he was ever advised of this referral, but under the circumstances i do not see how he could have been. signed this th day of august . (s) robert l adams, robert l. adams. affidavit of ivan d. lee the following affidavit was executed by ivan d. lee on june , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy state of texas, _county of dallas, ss_: i, ivan d. lee, being duly sworn, depose as follows: in my performance of duties as a special agent of the federal bureau of investigation, i was assigned to take photographs of the rear of major edwin a. walker's residence at turtle creek boulevard, dallas, texas. on february , , accompanied by special agent w. james wood, i proceeded to the alley area located behind the residence of major general walker and took photographs from an automobile of the federal bureau of investigation proceeding slowly through the alleyway. these photographs were taken at approximately : a.m. on february , . at approximately : a.m., i returned to the area on foot and took two photographs, looking south by southwest down the alleyway behind major general walker's residence toward avondale street, dallas. after returning to the bureau automobile, we proceeded through the alley once again at approximately : a.m. and took another photograph of the rear of the residence of major general edwin a. walker. at approximately : a.m. another trip was made through the alley and another photograph was taken of the rear of the residence of major general edwin a. walker. photographs numbered on the back as dl [r] depict rear views of the residence of major general edwin a. walker, and is the same residence as depicted in commission exhibit number and marked as fbi inventory number . photographs numbered as dl [s] depict the alleyway looking south by southwest from the church of jesus christ latter day saints parking lot which is located adjacent to and north of the property of major general edwin a. walker. in the left hand side of the photographs of the alleyway, a driveway is noted, which is the driveway leading to the back of major general edwin a. walker's residence. i used a federal bureau of investigation owned millimeter robot camera in taking the above photographs. signed this st day of june , at dallas, tex. (s) ivan d. lee, ivan d. lee. [r] this photograph was labeled ivan lee exhibit a. [s] this photograph was labeled ivan lee exhibit b. affidavit of james d. crowley the following affidavit was executed by james d. crowley on june , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy district of columbia, _ss_: james d. crowley, being duly sworn, deposes and says: on august , , he was duly appointed an officer in the department of state, as a specialist in intelligence matters; that he has continued to serve in that capacity since that time, and that he has personal knowledge of the matters related in this affidavit: . i am one of the officers in the department of state responsible for disseminating throughout the department various reports, memoranda and documents which are received from other united states government agencies. . the first time i remember learning of oswald's existence was when i received copies of a telegraphic message, dated october , , from the central intelligence agency, which contained information pertaining to his current activities. i requested that a search of the office of security records be made on october , , to determine if the department had received any information previously. based on a quick review of the office of security file on oswald, i disseminated copies of the central intelligence agency message to the various offices within the department which were interested in receiving this type of material. . i also briefly reviewed oswald's office of security file on november , . although i am not certain, i believe the impetus for this review was either my receipt of a federal bureau of investigation report dated october , on lee harvey oswald or my receipt of a federal bureau of investigation report dated october , on the fair play for cuba committee--new orleans division. both of these reports were received in the intelligence processing section on november , . . in both instances, i reviewed the office of security file in a routine manner and had it returned to the office of security file room the same day in which it was charged to me. signed this th day of june . (s) james d. crowley, james d. crowley. transcriber's notes: punctuation and spelling were made consistent when a predominant preference was found in this book; otherwise they were not changed. misspellings in quoted evidence not changed; misspellings that could be due to mispronunciations were not changed. some simple typographical errors were corrected. inconsistent hyphenation of compound words retained. ambiguous end-of-line hyphens retained. occasional uses of "mr." for "mrs." and of "mrs." for "mr." corrected. dubious repeated words, (e.g., "what took place by way of of conversation?") retained. several unbalanced quotation marks not remedied. occasional periods that should be question marks not changed. occasional periods that should be commas, and commas that should be periods, were changed only when they clearly had been misprinted (at the end of a paragraph or following a speaker's name in small-caps at the beginning of a line). some commas and semi-colons were printed so faintly that they appear to be periods or colons: some were found and corrected, but some almost certainly remain. in the source for this volume, the name "de mohrenschildt" sometimes is printed in quoted material or affidavits as "de mohrenschildt" or "demohrenschildt", and all variations have been retained here. in another volume, which contained testimony from mr. and mrs. de mohrenschildt, "de" always was capitalized and was a separate word. footnotes have been repositioned to immediately follow the affidavits or other information that reference them. the index and illustrated exhibits volumes of this series may not be available at project gutenberg. the preface and contents refer to "mrs. j. v. allen" but the name in her affidavit is "mrs. j. u. allen". none of these were changed here. page : "enclosed is an envelope" probably should be "in". page : "mr. pic. is just a letter marked exhibit no. ." is a misprint for "mr. jenner." page : "merely to with the argument" probably should be "to win". page : "out intourist guide's name" was printed that way. page : "ribbons in here hair" was printed that way. page : "i wasn't in her being down there at the time." was printed that way. page : "the testimony of maj. eugene d. anderson was taken" was misprinted with the initial "a" instead of "d"; changed here for consistency with other instances. page : "put an americano came too" possibly should be "name". page : "from a caliber rifle" was printed without a period before " ". page : "carlot" was printed that way. page : "jack w. bucham" was printed with that way, not as "burcham". www.history-matters.com. transcriber's note: stylized "u" and "v" are denoted as =u= and =v=. italics are represented by _underscores_. investigation of the assassination of president john f. kennedy hearings before the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy pursuant to executive order , an executive order creating a commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of the late president john f. kennedy and the subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and s.j. res. , th congress, a concurrent resolution conferring upon the commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas _volume_ x united states government printing office washington, d.c. u.s. government printing office, washington: for sale in complete sets by the superintendent of documents, u.s. government printing office washington, d.c., president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy chief justice earl warren, _chairman_ senator richard b. russell senator john sherman cooper representative hale boggs representative gerald r. ford mr. allen w. dulles mr. john j. mccloy j. lee rankin, _general counsel_ _assistant counsel_ francis w. h. adams joseph a. ball david w. belin william t. coleman, jr. melvin aron eisenberg burt w. griffin leon d. hubert, jr. albert e. jenner, jr. wesley j. liebeler norman redlich w. david slawson arlen specter samuel a. stern howard p. willens[a] [a] mr. willens also acted as liaison between the commission and the department of justice. _staff members_ phillip barson edward a. conroy john hart ely alfred goldberg murray j. laulicht arthur marmor richard m. mosk john j. o'brien stuart pollak alfredda scobey charles n. shaffer, jr. biographical information on the commissioners and the staff can be found in the commission's _report_. preface the testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume x: everett d. glover, who became acquainted with lee harvey oswald following his return to texas in ; carlos bringuier, francis l. martello, charles hall steele, jr., charles hall steele, sr., philip geraci iii, vance blalock, vincent t. lee, arnold samuel johnson, james j. tormey, farrell dobbs, and john j. abt, who testified concerning oswald's political activities and associations; helen p. cunningham, r. l. adams, donald e. brooks, irving statman, tommy bargas, robert l. stovall, john g. graef, dennis hyman ofstein, and charles joseph le blanc, who testified concerning oswald's employment history; adrian thomas alba, who was acquainted with oswald in new orleans in ; chester allen riggs, jr., mr. and mrs. mahlon f. tobias, sr., mr. and mrs. jesse j. garner, richard leroy hulen, colin barnhorst, and mr. and mrs. arthur carl johnson, who testified concerning oswald's various residences; and clifton m. shasteen, leonard edwin hutchison, frank pizzo, albert guy bogard, floyd guy davis, virginia louise davis, malcolm howard price, jr., garland glenwill slack, dr. homer wood, sterling charles wood, theresa wood, glenn emmett smith, w. w. semingsen, and laurance r. wilcox, who testified concerning contacts they believed they had with oswald under varying circumstances. contents page preface v testimony of-- everett d. glover. carlos bringuier francis l. martello. charles hall steele, jr charles hall steele, sr philip geraci iii vance blalock vincent t. lee arnold samuel johnson james j. tormey farrell dobbs john j. abt helen p. cunningham r. l. adams donald e. brooks irving statman tommy bargas robert l. stovall john g. graef dennis hyman ofstein charles joseph le blanc adrian thomas alba chester allen riggs, jr mrs. mahlon f. tobias m. f. tobias, sr mrs. jesse garner jesse j. garner richard leroy hulen colin barnhorst mrs. arthur carl (gladys j.) johnson a. c. johnson clifton m. shasteen leonard edwin hutchison frank pizzo albert guy bogard floyd guy davis virginia louise davis malcolm howard price, jr garland glenwill slack homer wood sterling charles wood theresa wood glenn emmett smith w. w. semingsen laurance r. wilcox exhibits introduced page commission exhibit no. bringuier exhibit no.: cunningham exhibit no.: -a -a -a dobbs exhibit no.: garner exhibit no. hulen exhibit no.: johnson (arnold) exhibit no.: -a -a johnson (gladys) exhibit a lee exhibit no.: -a -a -b -c pizzo exhibit no.: -a -b -c semingsen exhibit no.: tobias (mrs. mahlon f.) exhibit no. tobias (mahlon f., sr.) exhibit no. tormey exhibit no.: wilcox exhibit no.: hearings before the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy testimony of everett d. glover the testimony of everett d. glover was taken at a.m., on march , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. albert e. jenner, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. jenner. mr. glover, would you stand? do you promise to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in response to my questions in the taking now of your deposition? mr. glover. i do. mr. jenner. mr. glover, you have received, i think, sometime last week a letter from mr. rankin, general counsel for the commission, advising you we desire to take your testimony by deposition. mr. glover. advising me that you wanted to take my testimony. i don't know whether it was specifically deposition, but yes. mr. jenner. now the commission has been established to investigate and report all the circumstances surrounding the assassination of president kennedy and any participation by lee harvey oswald and marina oswald and others in that tragic event. we understand that you had some acquaintance with the oswalds as well as people in the community who, in turn, had an acquaintance with the oswald's, and that you also had an acquaintance with george de mohrenschildt, naming him in particular, although there are others i will probably examine you about. but it is in those general areas that i will proceed. now you are at liberty to have counsel present should you so desire, and since you don't appear to have anybody with you, i assume you do not wish any counsel? mr. glover. that's right. mr. jenner. your name is everett d. glover? mr. glover. right. mr. jenner. do you reside in dallas, tex.? mr. glover. right. mr. jenner. where is your present residence? mr. glover. my present residence is webbs chapel road, dallas, . mr. jenner. how long have you resided there, sir? mr. glover. since january , of this year, . mr. jenner. where did you reside immediately prior to that? mr. glover. southwestern boulevard. i forget the zone in dallas. mr. jenner. how long had you resided there? mr. glover. sometime around april , of . mr. jenner. i will have to keep going back. where did you live prior to that? mr. glover. i lived at potomac in dallas also. it is in university park. mr. jenner. for what span of time? mr. glover. span of time there, i don't have the figures right in my mind, but approximately years there. mr. jenner. that would take you back to sometime in ? mr. glover. yes. we'd have to check these to be sure, this is approximately. mr. jenner. that is sufficient. i will ask you this general question. over how long have you resided in dallas or the dallas area? mr. glover. since . june , , i took a position with socony mobil oil co. and came here to work on that day. i have lived here since that time. mr. jenner. are you married? mr. glover. i am married; yes. mr. jenner. do you have a family? mr. glover. well, i am married for the second time at the present time. my former wife and a son by my former marriage are living in pennsylvania. mr. jenner. of what country are you a native? mr. glover. united states. mr. jenner. you were born in the united states? mr. glover. oh, yes. mr. jenner. how old are you? mr. glover. years old. mr. jenner. where were you born in the united states? mr. glover. i was born in worcester, mass. i resided in millbury, mass., but i was actually born in the city of worcester. mr. jenner. tell me about your education, please. elementary school and high school and if you went beyond high school. mr. glover. yes; i went to college at north clark university in worcester, mass., and i later went to the university of wisconsin. i completed a master's degree there and a great deal of work on a doctor's degree. mr. jenner. so you have a bachelor of arts degree? mr. glover. yes. mr. jenner. and master's degree and you have completed a good deal of work on a ph. d.? mr. glover. right. mr. jenner. you were first married when? mr. glover. . mr. jenner. where were you residing then? mr. glover. at that time i was residing in worcester, mass. mr. jenner. what was your wife's maiden name? mr. glover. the name was mary elizabeth butler. mr. jenner. she was a resident of worcester, was she? mr. glover. she was a resident of worcester. mr. jenner. and was a native-born american? mr. glover. yes; she was. mr. jenner. how many children do you have by that marriage? mr. glover. i have one. mr. jenner. he is with his mother, is he? mr. glover. he is with his mother now in pennsylvania; yes. mr. jenner. that marriage was terminated in divorce when? mr. glover. in texas last year, , in june, i believe it was, the th. mr. jenner. all right, had you been separated from your wife prior to that time? mr. glover. yes; i had been separated. mr. jenner. when did the separation occur? mr. glover. the separation occurred on approximately september of . mr. jenner. where were you residing then? mr. glover. i was residing at potomac. mr. jenner. did your wife leave this vicinity then? mr. glover. yes; she left this vicinity then. mr. jenner. and returned to where or went to where? mr. glover. she didn't return. the circumstances of her leaving were that my son is very interested avocationally in ice skating, and he had earned enough money selling the times herald, the local newspaper, to take him for summer's ice skating, and it so happened that he ended up in hershey, pa., which has a teacher or pro who is very good, and the circumstances just happened that way. mr. jenner. indoor arena rink? mr. glover. yes; he stayed there for the summer and he wanted to stay there beyond that time very badly. he wanted to continue his ice skating under some such situation as he had there, and my wife and i had not gotten along too well, and it seemed like a natural time to make a separation, so she left and went to pennsylvania during this time at approximately the end of the summer and stayed there, and i filed for a divorce. again i am not sure of the actual date, but approximately december of that year, . and the divorce was granted in the summer in , approximately june , of . mr. jenner. and you remarried when? mr. glover. i remarried august the th of this same year, . mr. jenner. and remained in the same quarters, did you? mr. glover. no; i moved about april to southwestern boulevard after having sold the house at potomac, which i owned, and made the divorce settlement. then i moved to southwestern boulevard where i rented a house with two colleagues of mine where i worked, who were all unattached, since i had to move from potomac. one moved in on december , , and another one on january , . mr. jenner. now when you and your wife separated, that is when she went to pennsylvania, hershey, pa., with her son for this period, did anyone join you in your quarters as roommates or persons living with you? mr. glover. well, these are the people i just referred to. one man, richard l. pierce, who works with me in the same section of my laboratory, joined me december , of , and the second man, volkmar schmidt, who came from germany and worked with the company as a geologist, came to live with me approximately january . it was an arrangement we tried out to see if there would be mutual satisfaction. mr. jenner. do you have a german derivation? mr. glover. i do not. mr. jenner. what is yours? mr. glover. my background on that respect, my derivation would be english on both sides. i know on the glover side it is english and goes back down to the , but i don't know the other side very well. mr. jenner. all right. what is your occupation, profession, business or avocation? mr. glover. well, occupation is as a chemist working with the geology group in the exploration section of socony mobil oil co., field research laboratory here in dallas. mr. jenner. your master's degree was in what? mr. glover. it was in soil science. mr. jenner. involved chemistry? mr. glover. involved chemistry of fine grain material such as soil, sediments, and so forth. this is the reason that i am working where i am, because of the kind of work i do, in the geology section. it is not soil per se, but using techniques in dealing with problems similar to soil problems. mr. jenner. and in turn, related to the discovery or production or recovery of oil? mr. glover. it is related particularly to the exploration for oil. that is the study of the mechanical constituents of rocks in which the oil is found. i would say involving research work in order to find some more easily recognized signs of oil. that is the long term objective. mr. jenner. i would say this to you, sir. it is common that witnesses can, especially in this type of examination where the witness sits across the desk from a questioner, to drop his voice. so to the extent that you can recall it, you won't do it all the time, keep your voice up. mr. glover. yes. mr. jenner. are you acquainted with a mr. george de mohrenschildt? mr. glover. yes; i am. mr. jenner. when and under what circumstances did you first become acquainted with mr. george de mohrenschildt? mr. glover. again this is connected with my ice skating activities which i didn't mention. i mentioned my son's. one of my avocations is ice skating. i do not know the exact time, but sometime in the period, i would say to , when i have been ice skating, i met mrs. de mohrenschildt on the ice rink skating by herself. she skated a considerable time, maybe, probably, part of a year, and then later she brought mr. de mohrenschildt there, and that is the first acquaintance i had with them. this was a casual acquaintance. mr. jenner. is this the present mrs. de mohrenschildt? mr. glover. this is the present mrs. de mohrenschildt. mr. jenner. was she then married to mr. de mohrenschildt? mr. glover. i have no way of knowing. i wouldn't have thought of this particularly except in conversation with the fbi. by their reaction, what he said, apparently there was some question about this, but i wouldn't have known that myself. i assumed she was. mr. jenner. well, in order that we are certain we have the same lady in mind, did you learn what her first name was? mr. glover. yes. the name she wanted to be called was "jon," the french j-e-a-n-n-e. i didn't see it written down, but she insisted on her being called "jon," the french. mr. jenner. by american, it is jeanne? mr. glover. jeanne, right. mr. jenner. when you talk about ice skating, you mean figure skating? mr. glover. figure skating; right. mr. jenner. this relationship, at least for a time, was relatively casual? mr. glover. it was very casual. in fact, they did not seem very much interested in other people. mr. jenner. did that acquaintance ripen eventually into a friendship, or at least a closer relationship than that you have indicated? mr. glover. well, there are two phases of my acquaintance with them. the first phase ended when they didn't come to the skating rink any more, and i cannot recall when this was. but if it were necessary to find out, i could possibly find out more in detail, because they joined the dallas figure skating club which i belonged to, and it was after i had belonged to that organization a year or so that they left. mr. jenner. would you give me for the moment your best recollection as to when the first period of time to which you have reference ended? mr. glover. ended? mr. jenner. that is, the casual acquaintance. mr. glover. i really honestly don't know when that was. mr. jenner. maybe we can get at it this way. what is your present recollection as to the intervening span in which you had either little or no contact with the de mohrenschildts? how long did that run? mr. glover. well, i know when i met them--i think i know when i met them again. this was in connection with playing tennis. and that must have been in the spring, i believe, of , sometime in that period. mr. jenner. you and your former wife were still living together at that time? mr. glover. yes, that's right; my former wife was still in dallas. mr. jenner. would you say that the intervening period when you had a little or no contact with the de mohrenschildts covered as much as a couple of years? mr. glover. i would say that is what i think, but i could check this point if necessary. mr. jenner. we will let you know as to whether we want you to do that. that acquaintance was then renewed under what circumstances? mr. glover. i went to a party at a friend's house one night. mr. jenner. who is the friend? mr. glover. the man's name is lauriston c. marshall. mr. jenner. that is a new name to me. mr. glover. well, he is called larry, but his name, i am quite sure, was---- mr. jenner. l-a-u-r-i-s-t-o-n c. m-a-r-s-h-a-l-l? mr. glover. yes. mr. jenner. all right. mr. glover. he lived in garland here. mr. jenner. garland, tex.? mr. glover. right. this is not where i met the de mohrenschildts, but that is the connection. i was at his house and i met sam ballen. and something was said about playing tennis, and it turns out that he likes to play tennis and i also like to play tennis. i hadn't played very much since i had been in dallas, but i always wanted to play more than i had a chance to, and he said, "how about tomorrow morning?" and i agreed, okay. so when i went to play tennis the next morning, it turned out that the other two people involved in this match of four people, doubles, was the de mohrenschildts. mr. jenner. you played doubles in tennis with him the next morning, sunday morning? mr. glover. this sounds right. i believe it was a saturday night party, and i was playing sunday morning. i believe that is what it was. mr. jenner. and your friendship with the de mohrenschildts blossomed? mr. glover. well, we played tennis an awful lot more. that was the basis. mr. jenner. you say the double, the lady who played tennis with you on that initial occasion, was the same lady who had accompanied mr. de mohrenschildt earlier on the ice rink? mr. glover. that's correct. mr. jenner. will you tell me, please, and i want you to tell me in your own words. i will try not to interrupt you, or at least i will keep it to a minimum, what you learned about george de mohrenschildt first? mr. glover. you mean what i learned about him from my complete acquaintance with him? mr. jenner. yes. mr. glover. what he was like and so forth? mr. jenner. what he was like, what you learned from him, if you can indicate information you received directly from him as to his travels, if any, as to his work, as to any associations he had. mr. glover. well, it is pretty hard to produce some order out of it, because i never got a complete picture. but he had apparently, and i believe this to be true, had come back from a trip to south america. i mean to mexico where he had walked from the north edge of mexico down to central america, to panama. mr. jenner. your information in this respect was obtained directly from him? mr. glover. directly from him and also by films which he had showing his trip, and also the fact that he apparently corresponded with sam ballen during the time that he had been down there, and that was mentioned, the fact that he had corresponded. mr. jenner. who mentioned it, ballen or de mohrenschildt? mr. glover. i couldn't be sure about that, sir, but from one or the other people, i am sure i got the distinct impression that they corresponded. he sent letters to sam ballen during the time he was there, so i do believe, and i have no reason not to believe, that he made such a trip, seeing the film. mr. jenner. you saw the film? mr. glover. yes. mr. jenner. you also talked to mr. de mohrenschildt, or he with you? mr. glover. yes. mr. jenner. you had conversations with him about his trip to mexico, and he told you about it? mr. glover. yes. mr. jenner. did he exhibit the film? mr. glover. he exhibited the film. mr. jenner. was mrs. de mohrenschildt the lady called jeanne and who preferred to be called "jon" (jeanne)? mr. glover. yes. mr. jenner. was she present when the film was shown? mr. glover. she was present. mr. jenner. and you also had conversation with her? mr. glover. yes, sir; i did. mr. jenner. did she confirm, as well as mr. de mohrenschildt, their trip, walking trip into mexico? mr. glover. yes. mr. jenner. was anything said about the de mohrenschildts, either of them having any--having met any officials with the soviet union? mr. glover. during that trip? mr. jenner. yes. mr. glover. no, sir; not that i remember. mr. jenner. not at all? mr. glover. nothing was said. mr. jenner. you have no impression on that score, then? mr. glover. i cannot remember any such thing was said. mr. jenner. i take it then, it is your impression that this was a walking pleasure trip, a vacation, that sort of thing in which he and mrs. de mohrenschildt traveled from the border--that would be the north border of mexico down as far as panama? mr. glover. yes, but i would amend your statement a little bit. you said pleasure trip. it was in a sense, the way i understood the reason for this was, that de mohrenschildt had a son and daughter by his, according to him, i believe, last marriage. the son had died of cystic fibrosis, and i had the impression that he was very much attached to his son, and this was one of the reasons that he sort of threw up everything. i had been given to believe he was in the oil consulting business. mr. jenner. you were given to believe that de mohrenschildt was in the oil consulting business? mr. glover. previous to that and after that time, too, and that he had thrown everything up and done this. he said that he and someone else started to make this trip at a much earlier time. i am not sure what time it was, but it was a long time. seems to me he said they tried to drive a model "t" ford and hadn't been successful. mr. jenner. that would be quite a long time ago? mr. glover. yes. that might be older than de mohrenschildt is. i don't know when he came here, really, of course. mr. jenner. all right. mr. glover. but anyway, maybe it is a model "a" ford. i really am not sure about that point. it doesn't sound right, a model "t" ford. mr. jenner. a model "t," say that is my error, and the model "a"---- mr. glover. model "a" came in and . mr. jenner. , , and . i was about a junior in college then. mr. glover. yes. i am a little bit younger than that. i was years old in , but i distinctly remember the model "t's." i am not sure, but the important thing as far as my recollection was, he said he wanted to take this trip and started to take it with another fellow and he didn't get very far, but then he this time did take the trip and the feeling i had was the motivation was--he had been completely broken up by his son dying and he wanted to do this a long time ago, he went ahead and did it. and his wife wanted to do it with him and they did it. mr. jenner. so the impression you obtained from the conversation you heard overall was that the trip was not motivated by any objective or plan to have any contact with any persons connected with the soviet union, or representing the soviet union? mr. glover. no; i did not get any such impression. one other thing, i did get the impression, he mentioned specifically that he had some business along the way, which was looking at old mining areas. now i got the impression, although it was a hazy one, that he was actually being paid by some private concern to look at old mining areas as he passed through there. mr. jenner. all right. did you have any impression of any other trips that mr. de mohrenschildt made outside of this country? mr. glover. yes. he told me that after the war he was on a, i don't know whether he was connected--somehow he said with a state department venture which he was doing something with regard to advising in oil matters in yugoslavia. mr. jenner. and that he had gone to yugoslavia? mr. glover. he had gone to yugoslavia, he told me that. he described the living there when he was there, drinking lots of wine in yugoslavia with women and so forth, and it wasn't very descriptive, but from what he said, i got a very distinct impression he had been there, yes. mr. jenner. did you get an impression that he was married at that time? mr. glover. i did. in fact, the impression i have, and i am not sure exactly where it all comes from, when i first met mrs. de mohrenschildt, she was alone, and her husband was never with her, and she was not very cordial at all. you saw someone skating around and you'd just say a word and she was not particularly cordial. and even later, i am not sure exactly the amount of time, but maybe a season of skating, he appeared. and i assumed afterwards, i am not sure what basis i had, that this was the time that he was away in yugoslavia, and he came back. and i think they referred to that afterwards, as if that were the case. mr. jenner. in this early period was anything else said to you affirmatively that jeanne or "jon" de mohrenschildt was his wife at that time? mr. glover. when i come to think of it, i don't know of any specific instance where there was a big point made of them being married, but i assumed, since they were living together, and i just assumed that. mr. jenner. how do you know they were living together? mr. glover. at what time? mr. jenner. the earlier period. mr. glover. the earlier period, no. the later period i didn't live too far away from them. i would go to their house and have a glass of beer after the tennis match, and later i went to their house quite often. mr. jenner. the tennis match was the second period? mr. glover. the first period i don't have any proof whatsoever except it seemed to me they were giving the same name. mr. jenner. they were? mr. glover. i believe so. now that could be checked with the dallas figure skating club where they were members. i assumed they were husband and wife. mr. jenner. what did you learn as to george de mohrenschildt's past in connection with whether he had been married more than once? mr. glover. he said he had been married four times, including this. mr. jenner. including the marriage to jeanne or jon? mr. glover. yes. mr. jenner. so he had had three marriages prior to this time? mr. glover. that is what he said. he used to talk about that quite often, make remarks to the fact that he had been married four times. mr. jenner. you have mentioned a son who died. did he say anything about having any other children? mr. glover. a daughter. mr. jenner. a daughter? mr. glover. same wife. mr. jenner. was anything said about whether she was alive or dead? mr. glover. yes; he talked quite a bit about her. mr. jenner. as being alive or dead? mr. glover. as being alive. mr. jenner. was there an occasion eventually in which there was a discussion in which he indicated that she had been--she had become deceased? mr. glover. no. he never indicated anything to me that she had become deceased. he talked quite a bit about her and was still talking about custody of the daughter who was remaining with the mother, who was trying to prevent any possible change in custody. that was right up to the last i knew him. mr. jenner. do you recall whether at any time you stated to the fbi that he had two children and they had both died? mr. glover. i stated that he had two children? mr. jenner. yes. mr. glover. and they had both died? mr. jenner. did die, yes. mr. glover. i did not state such. mr. jenner. had two children by the marriage to wynne sharples. mr. glover. the last name sharples is correct, and i remember the nickname "deedee" of the woman who he said he was married to by whom he had two children. i did not say to the fbi that he had two children who died. i have said he had two children one of which died who apparently had cystic fibrosis. mr. jenner. all right, did he mention any other relative of his? mr. glover. i was asked this question by the fbi, and i believe he mentioned--i know he mentioned a brother--a brother who taught school, and i believe it is dartmouth, n.h., and i think he taught history. anyhow, he taught some subject or related subject on liberal arts, but i don't know. mr. jenner. he did mention dartmouth? mr. glover. i couldn't be sure. mr. jenner. could have--could he have mentioned princeton instead of dartmouth? mr. glover. i don't think so, because i remember it being in that area up in the upper new england states, somewhere. mr. jenner. was there any discussion of jeanne or "jon's" background? mr. glover. yes. the impression i got of her background was that she was of white russian stock and came through china where she was married, and then came to this country. that is the impression i got. mr. jenner. that she had come from russia and gone to china? mr. glover. i don't know whether anyone said white russia, but whether they said that or not, i got the impression that she had come originally from russia. mr. jenner. did you learn anything about--perhaps i'd better so pursue mrs. de mohrenschildt. she had come through china? mr. glover. she lived in china and was brought up there as a young girl, married, presumably, a chinese man, and then came to this country. that is the story i got, and apparently from what she said, he did not adjust. mr. jenner. she came here with her husband? mr. glover. that is the impression i got. mr. jenner. you had the impression that he was a chinese? mr. glover. i had that impression. mr. jenner. after they arrived here, the husband did not adjust well? mr. glover. right, and it led to their breakup. mr. jenner. and they were then divorced? mr. glover. yes. mr. jenner. or at least broke up, as far as you know? mr. glover. that is the impression i got. mr. jenner. and that her marriage to george de mohrenschildt was her second marriage? mr. glover. that is the impression i got. mr. jenner. did you learn whether mrs. de mohrenschildt had any business or occupation herself? mr. glover. yes, i did. she had worked some time during--at the time that i first met her, she worked as a designer of clothes. mr. jenner. for what company? mr. glover. i don't know what company, but she worked here in dallas at the time. i believe at the time she joined the figure skating club, someone learned that. i don't think she told me particularly, but someone, that she did this. mr. jenner. did you ever have a conversation on the subject with her which served to confirm the report that you had obtained from someone else? that is, that she worked as a designer here in dallas. mr. glover. i cannot recall at the time of the first meeting with her, but at a later time, from things that were said, i am quite sure that she referred to that time when she worked, yes, here in dallas. mr. jenner. give me your general impression of her. what kind of person was and is she? mr. glover. well, the most obvious thing about her that i can recall was her very, very great desire to help and dominate people, to help solve their problems, is the thing that always impressed me about her. she had one daughter, which i haven't mentioned, apparently by this previous marriage, who grew up and who i met one time when she was passing through. mr. jenner. that is, passing through dallas? mr. glover. with her husband. that was during the later period. mr. jenner. she was married and lived somewhere else in this country? mr. glover. all i know is that daughter and husband came from a mexican trip and were going to alaska. and she had this one daughter who she talked very much about, how she had brought her up and so forth, and she seemed to have a desire to sort of help people out and sort of arrange their affairs. she tried one time to give me advice on my family situation, at which time, as one would say, i told her off, told her that i had my own ideas about what i wanted to do about the situation and was not interested in hers at all. but that is the most outstanding impression i have of her, always trying to do something for someone, arrange things in some way, sort of an overdeveloped mother tendency, to me. mr. jenner. describe the physical characteristics of her, please. mr. glover. physically, i am depending somewhat on some pictures she showed. according to her, when she showed pictures in the album. mr. jenner. i don't mean--are you relating to the pictures to describe mrs. de mohrenschildt? mr. glover. no; well, i will just leave that out, if you prefer. mr. jenner. describe the physical characteristics of mrs. de mohrenschildt as you knew her, saw her. mr. glover. well, she was a person who looked in fairly good physical shape. mr. jenner. about how old? mr. glover. she looked like she was about years old. she was accumulating fat on her body which was very noticeable. we played tennis all the time, and she looked like someone fortyish and was beginning to get quite a lot of fat. mr. jenner. what about coloration? mr. glover. color of hair was brown, medium brown. i don't remember people's eyes very well. it sort of seems to me like they were blue. i am not sure. her height was medium height. mr. jenner. medium for a woman and medium for a man differ--what would you say, five two, or five three or five five? mr. glover. i am not very conscious. i would say five five or five six, maybe. mr. jenner. miss reporter, would you please stand and tell us how tall you are? the reporter. i am five two and a half in my stocking feet and about five five with heels. mr. jenner. having observed the reporter, what is your present recollection about mrs. de mohrenschildt's height. is she taller or shorter? mr. glover. i would say her height without her heels or anything was at least as tall as she is standing now, would be five five or five six which i said, or possibly taller than that. i am not very sure. mr. jenner. but she was inclined to be on the heavy side? mr. glover. slightly. she was getting heavy. mr. jenner. what would you say she weighed, offhand? mr. glover. she talked about that when we were playing tennis. i can't remember. i really don't know. maybe, i would say, to , or so. mr. jenner. she was five five and she weighed pounds? she would be awfully thin. mr. glover. well, she must have weighed more than that. i am not very conscious about that. (comments off the record.) mr. glover. maybe she would be or so. maybe she weighed a little bit more than that. mr. jenner. did mr. de mohrenschildt speak to you of his background? mr. glover. he spoke somewhat of it. i didn't get a very clear picture of the exact tracings of his background. i got a picture of him having been born in sweden. he said he came from sweden. and having lived in russia for a short time, and then having left there. and the next thing i remember him saying was that he fought with the polish national army sometime in the second world war, and had left the army. now i am not quite sure when that was, when the army was disbanded, when hitler invaded, or some other time. i am not sure. it must have been then, i guess, but that is the hazy impression i have of that part of it. mr. jenner. at the time of the invasion of poland by hitler, which was roughly september of , de mohrenschildt then left poland? mr. glover. well, he left the polish army at the same time. i really don't know for sure when that was. i didn't think very much about it. mr. jenner. did he say he came directly to this country at that time? mr. glover. i do not have any impression of him saying he came directly here, no. the next thing i remember about his telling his background was that he came here to this country. mr. jenner. here in texas? mr. glover. first he came to new york, according to his story. and i remember one comment he made about that. he was wined and dined and passed around to people who he knew in some way, and this was fine, but when he came to find a job, he had a lot of trouble. and the next period i remember is that he was at the university of texas, and i assume he was going to school and got a degree in petroleum engineering. mr. jenner. but you are not so sure about that? you have the impression that he was a person who had the benefit of higher education? mr. glover. yes; i assumed that he had had at least some school knowledge of the subject of petroleum engineering or petroleum in general. mr. jenner. he did say that he attended the university in this state? mr. glover. yes; he said he attended the university of texas, i am quite sure. at least i got that impression. i am not sure of his exact words. he talked about being a student, so i guess i just assumed that. i don't know whether he said specifically he attended as a full-time student. mr. jenner. describe george de mohrenschildt. mr. glover. he is a heavy set rather mr. atlas type. mr. jenner. atlas or adonis? mr. glover. i notice that he is still around, mr. atlas. very healthy looking specimen. tall and heavy set. little bit clumsy in his movements. mr. jenner. a big man, in other words? mr. glover. big man, yes. mr. jenner. and handsome? mr. glover. well, that is a matter of what you call handsome. mr. jenner. you described him in that respect. mr. glover. well, i think he was a, he might be called handsome by somebody. i would call him a good heavy-looking physical specimen. mr. jenner. color of hair? mr. glover. hair was some kind of brown. mr. jenner. had a good crop of hair? mr. glover. yes; a lot of curly, wavy hair. mr. jenner. what about his personality? mr. glover. he was a very great mixture of things. mr. jenner. tell us about it. mr. glover. he was a very cynical sort of person. he was a bohemian sort of person. mr. jenner. what do you mean by that? i think i know what you mean, but what do you mean by "bohemian type of person"? mr. glover. i mean he lived the kind of life where he went the way he wanted to go and he did what he wanted to do and he didn't care very much about what anyone said. he wanted to play tennis, morning, noon and night. he wanted to dress the way he wanted to. he was not very conforming in his physical dress or in his appearance or anything else. but the main thing that impressed me most about him was his immaturity. he acted like a fellow who is in his teens, who was reacting against everything in the world and never settled down, and acted like this minor revolution which occurs in most people, of being against authority and so forth, and wanted to travel over the world and do things himself. he is sort of a revolution inside of him. it never stops. he was sort of a rebel. mr. jenner. would you say he really had somewhat adolescent tendencies and had never grown up? mr. glover. i would say that he was very much so; yes. mr. jenner. in your time and my time, we talked about "joe college." is that expression familiar to you? mr. glover. yes. mr. jenner. was he that kind of a person, breezy? mr. glover. yes; very much so. very outspoken. his language sometimes wasn't very nice. he said anything he wanted to say. mr. jenner. was he, in his conversation, somewhat of a braggart? mr. glover. yes; he was. mr. jenner. talked about himself a great deal and what his accomplishments were and so forth? mr. glover. yes; he did. he was somewhat of a braggart. he did, like many, many people, he embroidered things. i had the feeling one could never place full stock in exactly all the things he said. he was like a lot of people, he embroidered things. not so much a braggart exactly as just one who just talked a lot about everything. i think, yes; he was sort of a braggart in a way. mr. jenner. what would you say were his attitudes and his relationships, first, with the male sex, and second with the ladies? mr. glover. female sex? mr. jenner. overall attitude. mr. glover. his overall attitude, one of his preoccupations was sex, seemingly, the female sex. he used to talk about every female he saw go by. he would ride along in his car and blow the horn at any female he saw going down the street. and his attitude toward males, as far as i know, there was no particular, nothing particular to be said on that subject. mr. jenner. but he showed considerable interest in ladies? mr. glover. yes; he showed a very, very great interest in them, sort of a preoccupation thing with him. mr. jenner. did he seem to ingratiate himself with ladies when he was in their presence? mr. glover. yes; he was even somewhat rougher than that. he would act very, very aggressive toward them, very aggressive toward them. i don't know whether his bite was as bad as his bark. i never saw any evidence of it, but he was very, very rough and aggressive with people. mr. jenner. would you give me your present overall impression of george de mohrenschildt insofar as character and integrity are concerned? mr. glover. well, he was a man who obviously very much embroidered things he said. and also from his political opinions, which he gave out from time to time, didn't show very clearly where he stood. mr. jenner. now would you give the circumstances and your--first give me your overall impression as to his political views. and i mean political in the sense of, first, i mean political in the sense of the views he entertained with respect to governments in general, and in particular, i mean as against any political party. mr. glover. well, he said--the main thing there is his cynical attitude towards things. i don't think he respected any kind of authority. i think that he is sort of apolitical. he sort of resented having to conform very much. but his political views, as far as our system versus communism, for instance, it wasn't very clear how he stood. he made remarks which suggested that he didn't like the way the communists were treated. very pointed remarks, sometimes. mr. jenner. he didn't like the way the communists were treated? mr. glover. yes; he didn't like the treatment that some communists were given. i can give you an example. mr. jenner. you mean in this country or in the soviet union? mr. glover. well, i was thinking of outside this country. mr. jenner. all right. mr. glover. so i would say that the whole question---- mr. jenner. what did he say in that respect which gave you that impression? mr. glover. well, i remember that at the time of castro and cuba, when the incident occurred of removing the russian missiles---- mr. jenner. missile sites? mr. glover. yes; he was very much upset about this, and he was very angry at kennedy for doing what he did. mr. jenner. what did he say, as best you can give us in substance? i know you can't remember the words, but in substance, what he said. mr. glover. well, the substance of what he said, he didn't like what kennedy was doing at all. and the reason he gave, as far as i can remember, was the possible involvement in a nuclear war. mr. jenner. you seek to imply that de mohrenschildt was opposed to what kennedy was doing, not because of dislike for castro, but rather that he feared we would be, those actions might involve us in a nuclear war? mr. glover. well, in this particular point, yes. he also remarked, which shows that he had sympathy with castro--it is not possible for me to separate those exactly, but in this particular thing, i remember one time being very, very excited about the missile business in cuba, and this business came up that that would lead us into a nuclear war. in other words, he was suggesting that he was sympathetic with castro, at least i thought so--well, castro is all right, he can't do any harm, he is just a little guy, and this is the general impression i got. again, those may not be the exact expressions that he may have used. mr. jenner. would you give me an example that he was sympathetic with what castro represented? mr. glover. he certainly never, in my acquaintance with him, tried to make out a case for the communist system against our system. it was just sort of his shouting off about this thing i just described. and also i remember one very distinctly, which i told the fbi. one time there was a cartoon in the newspaper which pictured khrushchev with the face of a pig, a caricature, and george was very, very indignant about them doing that. and i said to george, well, he does look like a pig. and after all, the caricature has been around since the days of the famous frenchman---- mr. jenner. lautrec? mr. glover. no; it isn't lautrec. it's daumier. i don't know, but that is what i was thinking, and he does look like one. and so he showed on this point that he resented something very much about this. mr. jenner. did you ever get into any political discussions with de mohrenschildt? mr. glover. there is not very much i remember, because as i say, there was never any real discussion about such issues, that amounted to anything, but there were occasions when he seemed to agree to what i consider a reasonable view. for instance, things in russia at the present time. i recall one instance once before that there was a discussion--whether it came from a remark of a public figure in the press or somebody else who may have been present, but there was a discussion about the fact that under the khrushchev regime things had loosened up somewhat in russia. whoever was responsible for it, i think it was a public figure at the time who was talking, said that it was very true, things had loosened up in russia, but how does the russian feel about this. the answer was that the russians didn't feel that it is necessarily going to stay that way very long. i remember talking about this in the presence of george and he seemed to be quite agreeable on this idea. mr. jenner. when is the last time you saw de mohrenschildt? mr. glover. i saw him sometime in the early part of may, i believe. i moved into my house at southwestern about the th of april, and i had taken all his furniture which he had, looking for a place to store, and we three fellows were needing furniture, because i sent all my furniture to my former wife, all the good furniture, so he was going to let us use the furniture for as long as we wanted, to save him storage fees and help us out. we moved it over, and then he finally, on leaving to go to haiti, before he was going, he dropped by the house sometime in the day he departed, i think it was in the last few days of may, first week or two---- mr. jenner. ? mr. glover. , right. he came by the house looking for something which had been stored in some of the boxes, and they were loaded with their trailer and cargo to load on the boat in florida where they going to take off from. they were sending goods by boat and flying themselves. mr. jenner. that's the last time you have seen him? mr. glover. that is the last time i have seen him. mr. jenner. have you heard from him at any time? mr. glover. have i heard from him? mr. jenner. what has been the extent of that contact, first? mr. glover. well, he wrote to me and his wife wrote to me telling about how things were going in haiti, and i have replied very little to him. i have replied, i don't know how many times, maybe once when they first went down there, and i replied after january , when i moved. i shipped most of his furniture to a storage, keeping some back that i can still use in the new house, and i wrote to him telling him, i told him i didn't need the furniture, and i haven't corresponded with him very much. mr. jenner. in that correspondence he--has he given you any information as to what they are doing in haiti? did you have any information before they left for haiti as to what they were, or thought they were, going to do? mr. glover. yes. i have the information from talking very much about his haiti venture, and the impression i got was somewhat hazy, but the first part was that he was going to be doing a geological survey for chemicals and minerals. mr. jenner. for what? mr. glover. minerals of economic value. mr. jenner. did he indicate the group or company for which he was to do this work, or was it independent? mr. glover. i had the impression that he was the one who was running the show himself, but he was associated with some other businessman that was connected with it, that besides this initial venture of doing this chemical survey, they were also going to do other things and set up business ventures. that is what the other part involved, and i had the impression that this all tied together. mr. jenner. this was in the nature, as near as you can recall, of a joint venture of some kind? mr. glover. yes; except he gave me the impression that he was really running the show, and i also had the impression, which he didn't emphasize, but that someone else was providing the money if there was any money needed. mr. jenner. give us your knowledge and also your impression of the de mohrenschildt's financial status when they resided here in dallas? mr. glover. i had the impression that they didn't have very much money, because he had been away, and the time he came back, the oil consulting business had gone down pretty much. this was about the time when the companies were reorganizing and they were tightening their belts, and it just wasn't such good times, and he apparently had trouble in getting any oil consultant jobs. this was the impression i got from him and he didn't do very much, except i got the impression that he might have owned some leases, and he---- mr. jenner. oil leases? mr. glover. oil leases. and he talked about one particular one where there was litigation about it. and i got the impression that he didn't have very much money, except possibly some money coming in from the oil leases and they didn't have lots of food. they didn't have anything but very simple food, simple clothes. they hadn't bought anything new. they had clothes from time before, which were quite expensive, but they did, however, have a nice car. but they didn't spend a lot of money and didn't seem to have a lot. mr. jenner. would you say they attempted to live frugally? mr. glover. yes; i would say they attempted to live frugally. mr. jenner. speaking there about attire, in this connection, as evidence of their financial status or condition, do you recall mentioning to the fbi their tennis clothing and from time to time other clothing was quite informal, even to the extent of not being appropriate? mr. glover. well, mrs. de mohrenschildt used to wear a bathing suit all the time when she was playing tennis, one piece bathing suit, in which the lower half was sort of bikini like. and george just wore a pair of shorts. that is accepted attire for a man tennis player. we used to go to the dallas athletic country club east of the city to play, sometimes, because sam ballen had a membership, and she was told it is against the rules to appear on the courts with a bathing suit. mr. jenner. tell me about sam ballen. who is he? mr. glover. sam ballen, i met him in the way i told you, and he told me that he had been in the stock market business in new york, and came here to organize a company which deals in cataloging, and has a library for oil well logs. these are the records of the physical measurements made in the oil well, and apparently was very successful in doing this. i have known him for the past years--i met him actually when i told you; at lauriston marshall's house sometime in , i guess. mr. jenner. is ballen a friend of mr. de mohrenschildt? mr. glover. ballen is a friend of the de mohrenschildts. mr. jenner. was it your impression that they were closely acquainted? mr. glover. fairly well, yes; closely acquainted. mr. jenner. did you play tennis together with mr. ballen and the de mohrenschildts on more than one occasion? did you continue to have this acquaintanceship subsequent to that first occasion about which you have testified? mr. glover. very much so; yes. mr. jenner. were there occasions thereafter--social events, parties, visits in the home, and what not, that sam ballen participated? mr. glover. yes; there were occasions, although the main association was that we played tennis together. we made a very good team. we have about the same degree of skill at it; yes. mr. jenner. does he reside here in dallas? mr. glover. yes; he does. mr. jenner. he still stays--lives here? mr. glover. as far as i know. mr. jenner. do you know of a company with which he is associated? mr. glover. i do not know the name offhand. mr. jenner. and that his name is spelled b-a-l-l-e-n, and his first name is samuel? mr. glover. i just call him sam. i don't know whether his name is samuel or not. mr. jenner. do you know anything about the de mohrenschildts' views toward religion? mr. glover. they are very much against religion, i am quite sure. they don't think very much of organized religion at all. mr. jenner. do you have any information more definite than that? are they atheistic, are they just--don't have any feeling one way or the other? mr. glover. be hard for me to say. i would think probably that atheistic would be more the correct term, but i don't recall specific remarks that they made. mr. jenner. did you have any impression, and do you now, as to any political affiliation of the de mohrenschildts together or separate? mr. glover. any kind of affiliation? mr. jenner. political or otherwise. mr. glover. political or otherwise. well, business, he belongs to the petroleum club. he talks about being down there. and i don't know of any other organizations. mr. jenner. well---- mr. glover. well, cystic fibrosis, they are very active in that, because of his son. mr. jenner. that is a charity organization? mr. glover. a charity organization. and they were very active in this, because the wife, although it was not her son involved, was very, very active in that and went from door to door collecting, trying to get money for this purpose. i don't know of any other organizations. i remember one time being invited to some kind of charity program over at the--i don't know how to call it any more, but there is a center for retarded children over in the cedar springs area, which it seems that a mexican-american organization was sponsoring, and he invited me to go to that. i don't know if they were members or not. i think that was sort of a mexican-american, i am not sure. mr. jenner. did you ever have the impression they ever belonged to any political organizations? mr. glover. no; i did not have any impression that he belonged to any. mr. jenner. did they express what their politics were? that is, say, as between being republican or democrat? mr. glover. i don't recall anything very strong on that subject. mr. jenner. did you, during your time here in dallas, become acquainted with marina and lee oswald? mr. glover. i did. mr. jenner. would you state when it was that you first became acquainted with either or both of them. mr. glover. i am not able to give a specific time. i met marina first at the home of george de mohrenschildt. mr. jenner. all right, give me the circumstances and when that occurred and what led up to it, and what you knew in advance before the meeting was held, about that? that is, whether this came all of a sudden without any advance notice, or whether there had been some discussion with the de mohrenschildts prior to that time. just tell me the whole circumstances leading up to the moment you met marina. mr. glover. i am not able to state a specific time, but of course it was somewhere, i am not really able to say whether it was sometime in december, or in january, or sometime in that time, or in the first part. mr. jenner. what year? mr. glover. this would be the year - . mr. jenner. now would you fix it with respect to when your wife and you separated. was that in december of , did you say? mr. glover. no, we separated before september , . i am not able to say when she (marina) came to the de mohrenschildts. marina came to the de mohrenschildts several times. the first time i met her and subsequent times, she was also there. mr. jenner. had there been--has there been any conversation about the oswalds with you or in your presence prior to the time that you met marina? mr. glover. well, i am not sure about this, but i would think, yes; they had mentioned her. mr. jenner. the de mohrenschildts had mentioned her? mr. glover. had mentioned her and her husband and their situation, but i really do not know a hundred percent that they mentioned it before i came over there. i rather think they mentioned she was coming there previous to my meeting her. mr. jenner. what did they say about her in advance of the meeting? mr. glover. well, they told about, this is as far as i remember, that they told about her coming over here with oswald and, as far as i remember the impression i got from de mohrenschildt--it might not have been entirely from him, it may have come later--oswald had gone to russia to live and had become a citizen. that is the impression i got. and that he had decided he didn't like russia and he came back here and brought his russian-born wife with him, and were living in fort worth, and they were having trouble getting along, the oswalds were. mr. jenner. getting along with each other? mr. glover. getting along with each other. mr. jenner. you remember that distinctly? mr. glover. yes; i remember that very distinctly, because they were trying to find a place for marina to stay. mr. jenner. you learned all this through conversations with the de mohrenschildts? mr. glover. right. mr. jenner. is that correct? mr. glover. yes. mr. jenner. and either or both of them told you that the oswalds were not getting along? mr. glover. yes. mr. jenner. and that they were seeking what for them? mr. glover. they were seeking a place particularly for marina to stay. she had a baby. and seeking a place for her to stay where she could just get a living, because apparently her husband didn't get along with her, lee oswald didn't get along, and i am not sure whether he had lost his job or something. it was suggested it was financial difficulties, the main thing, they didn't get along, and were trying to find a place for her where she could live. mr. jenner. did either of the de mohrenschildts speak russian? mr. glover. so far as i know, both of them spoke russian. mr. jenner. in your presence? mr. glover. yes; spoke russian, what i assumed to be russian. mr. jenner. what is your command, if any, of the russian language? mr. glover. well, i know "da," but i know very little about it. i have started to study russian in connection with scientific work, because it is very valuable to be able to speak russian, and i have always wanted to learn to speak russian, but somehow i never got to do this. it is very slight, actually, and they both, as far as i know, spoke russian. mr. jenner. now tell us what the occasion was, how it came about that you met marina on this first occasion? mr. glover. well, i am not sure again as to all the details, but i believe that it was this way. that they told about her and that, i came over there one night when she was there. i might have been invited to dinner when she was there, or i might have just come over when she was there, and they called me during the day and said, "glover, come over and meet this woman." mr. jenner. your recollection is that either george or jeanne called you and asked you to come over to their home to meet marina? mr. glover. yes; i am quite sure that he invited me to come over there, because that is usually the way. they were always inviting me to come over. mr. jenner. and your impression, this was an evening or during the daytime? mr. glover. well, i couldn't be sure, because she would sometimes come and stay for a day. it might be in the evening or it might have been on a weekend during the daytime. my impression was, it was in the evening. mr. jenner. but your impression also was that this time that she had been invited by them on occasions prior to this particular one? mr. glover. i am not sure whether they had invited her prior or not. mr. jenner. i'm just asking you what your impression was at that time. mr. glover. at that time that i first saw her? mr. jenner. yes; as to whether she had been there to visit the de mohrenschildts. mr. glover. my impression was that she probably had, but i really couldn't be sure about that. mr. jenner. anything said that evening indicating how she had reached the de mohrenschildt's home? mr. glover. you mean just physically brought there? mr. jenner. had they, the de mohrenschildts gone to pick her up? had she gotten there by bus herself? had she gotten a cab, or how did she get there? mr. glover. i don't remember specifically how she had been brought there. mr. jenner. that subject was not raised so as to give you the impression one way or the other, is that correct? mr. glover. well, since she didn't have any means of going herself, i am sure, whether she came by bus or whether she was brought by them, i had the impression that she was living in fort worth at the time, and i know she was, because at one time, either this time or another time, i volunteered, since i had a car, to take her down to the bus station with the de mohrenschildts to take her on her way back to fort worth, and the bus wasn't leaving right away, and there was a long wait, so we took her over to fort worth. but i am not sure whether that was this time or another time. mr. jenner. had you had the impression then in that connection that there were occasions when she had come or gone back by way of bus, or that she was capable of doing so? mr. glover. that she was capable, yes. mr. jenner. and she knew enough about bus travel between fort worth and dallas and the location of the de mohrenschildt home so that she, unaccompanied by someone, could travel back and forth? mr. glover. well, at least go to the fort worth bus. i'm not sure about whether they would pick her up or what. that is the impression i got from the fact we took her to the bus station and she was supposed to leave by bus. mr. jenner. who was present? yourself, marina, and the two de mohrenschildts on this occasion? mr. glover. i believe that is correct. mr. jenner. anybody else that you can recall? mr. glover. i do not believe so, but i could not be a hundred percent sure. i believe that is the way it was. mr. jenner. have the de mohrenschildts said anything to you about how they had become acquainted with the oswalds? mr. glover. they had not said anything specifically, but again, i had the impression that because they were russian speaking and knew some of the other people around the area who were russian speaking, they learned from people they knew in fort worth of this russian girl who was here in this country. mr. jenner. what, if anything, did they say about their interest in her beyond, let's say, pure curiosity? mr. glover. that is really the extent of what they ever said, that they were curious, and also trying to help her out. this was right in character with jeanne, who was always trying to help people out in such situations. mr. jenner. was she a generous person in that respect? mr. glover. i think you would call it generous although you have to realize this is a double-edged sword. people sometimes do things in order to control things and arrange things, and other times they do things out of the goodness of their heart, and i think it was one of the facts, she liked to help people out, and arrange things. maybe this is my male bias coming into it. mr. jenner. but in any event, they were, on the surface at least, cordial, and seeking to help her? mr. glover. that's right. mr. jenner. did you detect that that was an active and not merely a passive effort on their part? mr. glover. yes; i felt it was an active thing. mr. jenner. they were pursuing it with some vigor? mr. glover. yes; i would say so. mr. jenner. let's take george in particular. was it characteristic of him? was he a generous man and wanted to help others? mr. glover. much less so, i would say, than mrs. de mohrenschildt. i rather would attribute it to her. maybe it is my male bias coming out, blaming it on jeanne for being so interested in somebody else, but he went along with this too, and there were several other people i met there who they were trying to be good to. i think they were trying to do this to help. and shortly after my former wife left and i was by myself, i think they, in their relation to me, were trying to do something to help me out. mr. jenner. you met her on this occasion. how many additional occasions were there? mr. glover. i can't be sure of the number of occasions, because she came several times to the de mohrenschildt house. mr. jenner. alone? mr. glover. yes; she came several times alone, and i would say two or three times i saw her there. mr. jenner. and each occasion you saw her on these two or three or even more occasions, she was always alone in the sense that she was not accompanied on any of those occasions by lee oswald? mr. glover. that's correct. mr. jenner. is that correct? mr. glover. that's correct. mr. jenner. what was the length of this visit that you had on the first occasion? mr. glover. i am not really sure of the time, but the impression i had, it was in the evening, and again i am not sure which one of the times, but the impression i had, it was in the evening that i was over there, either to eat, and she left quite early in the evening. well, we took, maybe, or she was taken by them, but one time she left around o'clock or something like this, to get a bus to fort worth. whether this was the first time, i really can't be sure. mr. jenner. was it your impression she and her husband were living together at that time? mr. glover. yes; it was my impression. i am not really sure now whether anything was said to the contrary on that or not. my impression was that she was living with her husband on this first occasion, yes. mr. jenner. did any occasion arise when you were advised or had the impression that she was not then at that period of time living with her husband? mr. glover. yes; i think this is subsequent to this first time i met her. whatever those occasions were, they had arranged for her to stay with someone here in the dallas area. mr. jenner. do you know the name? mr. glover. i do not remember the name of the people, but they had arranged for her to stay here, and she had stayed for, as i recall, a fairly short time, that the arrangement did not work out. mr. jenner. does the name elena hall trigger your recollection? mr. glover. elena hall? mr. jenner. h-a-l-l? mr. glover. i don't recall ever having heard that name. mr. jenner. meller, m-e-l-l-e-r? mr. glover. i couldn't be very sure about that. they might have mentioned a name, but i do not recall. they mentioned the names of quite a number of people to me, and i am not sure. mr. jenner. what impression did you have of marina on this first occasion? mr. glover. well, my first impression was she was sort of an innocent person caught up in the situation. although i have very little to go on, and i could not communicate with her, only through the de mohrenschildts. mr. jenner. did she speak any english on that occasion? mr. glover. she spoke practically none. no english. she understood a little bit that people said in english. mr. jenner. but she did not speak it? mr. glover. she couldn't speak english. it was very difficult for me to get any real good impression from her. mr. jenner. and she was quite young? mr. glover. yes; she was quite young. mr. jenner. let's say this is february of , did you say that was, or march? mr. glover. this was sometime in the first part of the year. mr. jenner. of ? mr. glover. yes; it was probably in january. that would be my best recollection. it was during that time. it might have been later than that. i am hazy. the only thing i have to go by is, i learned later after discussion of the visit of oswald and his wife to our house, i learned pretty much from the conversation that that meeting took place in the latter part of february. now i did not recall, i just talked with the other people who lived in the house, and we figured it must have been about that time. and other people present recalled this, so this is how i figured the whole business. and i know i met marina previous to that time. i know i was away for a week in february when i went on a business trip to pennsylvania, and so i assume it was somewhere in january, but i really do not remember. again, if i had to recall those events, i might be able to. i can remember some of the events, but i am not very sure about it. mr. jenner. when next did you meet marina after this occasion? mr. glover. well, again, i am not sure at all about those occasions. she would come and stay at the house, and if i came in from playing tennis with george, she might have been there. this may have happened two or three times. mr. jenner. there came an occasion, did there not, in which you met lee oswald? mr. glover. yes; when i met lee oswald the first time, was at their house. mr. jenner. did marina accompany the de mohrenschildts on that occasion? mr. glover. that's right. mr. jenner. when was that and how did that arise, and what was the circumstance? mr. glover. the only thing i can remember about this, is again to fix this with respect to the other meeting when he and his wife, oswald and his wife, came to my house, and that was apparently in late february, so it must have been previous to that. mr. jenner. does the date february , , refresh your recollection as to the occasion they came to your home? mr. glover. well, i think i remember in the conversation with the fbi they mentioned a date about washington's birthday. mr. jenner. it is not lincoln's? mr. glover. i think it was washington's birthday, but i don't remember dates, so i had no actual recollection of the specific date. mr. jenner. yes; that is washington's birthday. [checking calendar.] mr. glover. the only thing i have a hazy recollection about, that it was on a tuesday or wednesday of the week. mr. jenner. washington's birthday in , was on a friday. mr. glover. maybe it was. my recollection isn't worth much on this. mr. jenner. it was the latter part of february, in any event, of ? mr. glover. the meeting at which i first met oswald was just previous to the meeting where i met oswald and his wife the second time. mr. jenner. there were two occasions when you met oswald and his wife? mr. glover. that's right. the first one was at the de mohrenschildts. mr. jenner. excuse me, we have one meeting described which you set in the early part of the year, marina alone. that is, she was unaccompanied by her husband, and you met her at the de mohrenschildts? mr. glover. yes. mr. jenner. there might have been some additional occasions when you saw her at the de mohrenschildts prior to your having met lee oswald? mr. glover. that's right. mr. jenner. now what was the circumstance under which you had your first meeting or first occasion that you met lee oswald? mr. glover. on that occasion the de mohrenschildts invited the two oswalds and invited quite a number of other people--i was included--to their house. mr. jenner. about when was this? mr. glover. well, this was just previous to the time that oswald and his wife came to my house, so i would say it was just a few days or a week before that. mr. jenner. at the de mohrenschildts, who was present on that occasion? mr. glover. this is where i have difficulty in recollection. several times the de mohrenschildts had invited me to their house for dinner, when he had informal dinners, and i am not really sure at all who was present. i am sure that de mohrenschildt and his wife, marina oswald and lee oswald, and myself, and volkmar schmidt. mr. jenner. he was then living with you? mr. glover. living with me. he was there. and of the other people, i have just a poor impression as to whether---- mr. jenner. what about pierce? mr. glover. pierce was not there, i know that. mr. jenner. wasn't there anybody by the name of fredricksen? mr. glover. he was not there. mr. jenner. do you know fredricksen? mr. glover. you are talking about the first meeting? i know fredricksen. he had his office next to me at the laboratory. he works also at the laboratory, so i know him quite well. he was not there. mr. jenner. you have exhausted your recollection now? there were additional persons present on this occasion, but you don't recall their names? mr. glover. i can recall names of people who might have been there, and i certainly wouldn't swear to it, because i really don't remember that well. mr. jenner. was it a large party? mr. glover. there were quite a number of people for the small apartment. there may have been five or six, seven or eight more people. mr. jenner. there may have been five or six or seven or eight more people in addition to these you have named? mr. glover. yes. now i have an impression, and i may be completely wrong, that a man by the name of richmond was there. mr. jenner. richmond? mr. glover. i am not sure how you'd spell his name. i know they called him high richmond, and he works at the, they call it scas, which is southwest center for advanced studies. he has taught physics at smu. he may have been there. i do not know for sure. sam ballen might have been there, i don't know. i am not clear at all who might have been there. mr. jenner. all right, this was a dinner party or an evening party? mr. glover. sort of a dinner. mr. jenner. what did the oswalds look like and what was your impression of lee oswald? tell me how the oswalds were generally attired? did anything impress you? mr. glover. not well attired for clothing and shoes, those sort of things. i got the impression that they certainly were not perfectly well attired. as i remember, oswald just wore an open shirt and a pair of pants. he wasn't dressed up at all. some of the other people were dressed up. mr. jenner. even though this was in february ? mr. glover. well, i don't know. i got the impression that he was informally attired as opposed to formally attired, and his wife was also. that is the impression i got. maybe she was dressed up more. again, only impression i have is the informality of it as opposed to some of the other people who would be wearing suits. i can't remember what i was wearing at that time myself. i have the impression that they were different people than a lot of other people. mr. jenner. you did? mr. glover. yes. mr. jenner. that would be true of each of them? mr. glover. about her, i don't know. it is hard to say. i don't remember much of an impression of her, except she was a quiet little girl with a baby over on the bed sofa. mr. jenner. she brought the child with her? mr. glover. i am pretty sure; yes. now again, i believe so, but again, i am not a hundred percent sure. mr. jenner. on this previous occasion had she brought her child with her? mr. glover. i believe she always had her child with her. mr. jenner. to the best of your recollection, on that occasion, she had the child with her? mr. glover. yes. mr. jenner. what occurred that evening in the way of discussion? mr. glover. this evening several people talked to oswald. i talked very little. mr. jenner. english or russian? mr. glover. no, i don't remember whether there was any conversation in russian or not. i really didn't talk hardly any to the oswalds, any myself that evening. i know i remember that volkmar schmidt talked with him considerably, but he did not talk in russian. volkmar talked english. mr. jenner. does volkmar schmidt have command of the russian language? mr. glover. he has no command of russian, although norman fredricksen and pierce and volkmar all had started to study russian. there was a course at the school. i believe there was a course at the laboratory, a private teacher was giving classes. they all three started to take, but volkmar and pierce stopped, and fredricksen was the only one who continued. mr. jenner. is the name voshinin familiar to you? mr. glover. yes. mr. jenner. was he the instructor or the tutor for fredricksen and pierce? mr. glover. i do not believe so. i don't think that is the--i am quite sure that is not the same person at all. the facts i have about the teacher, it was a man who worked for some oil company here in dallas who taught classes on the side. maybe he was an interpreter, or maybe he was in the laboratory in geology for an oil company, but he was teaching on the side. mr. jenner. voshinin worked for sun, did he not? mr. glover. not the voshinin that i know. i know one voshinin, and he is teaching in the chemical engineering school of smu. and his wife does translating. now i don't know of any other voshinin. i don't recall the name very well of this man who was teaching, but fredricksen ended up by taking russian lessons from an older woman who, i think, was related to a woman who--i beg your pardon, fredricksen took lessons later from a woman who was related to the man who worked for some oil company, who had originally given classes, and that woman's name i do not remember. mr. jenner. his mother-in-law? voshinin's mother-in-law, mrs. gravitis? mr. glover. she had some kind of a name she was known by. i am quite sure--i can't remember whether it was voshinin--it is not the voshinin that teaches at smu. mr. jenner. it is a different one? mr. glover. the only voshinin i know is the man that teaches at smu. mr. jenner. does anything stand out in your mind on this initial meeting which you met lee oswald? and if so, would you please state it. mr. glover. well, the story from the beginning that the de mohrenschildts told, and the meeting on this first occasion, i didn't talk very much to him--was a perplexing business to me. in the first place, when he [de mohrenschildt] told the story, i didn't believe it was possible for any one to go to russia and work as he did and come back to this country. i doubted it was quite possible. and i mentioned this fact to some of the people i worked with. one fellow was particularly anti-russian in every way, and he thought this easily possible for a person to do this, that this made sense. in other words, that i was dubious of the story from the beginning. the thing that i kept thinking all the time, and this is apparently where i made a mistake, was that, if someone in his position had done what he said and brought a russian wife here, that certainly would be known by the authorities, the fbi particularly, and that if a person like he were running around the way he was and doing what he was doing, then he would be someone who is known very well by the fbi people. i told the fbi about this, and i also told them what de mohrenschildt had written to me quite recently. mr. jenner. tell me about that. mr. glover. de mohrenschildt told me in a letter that oswald had been checked by the fbi---- mr. jenner. do you have it? mr. glover. i gave it to the fbi. they have the letter. he stated in the letter that he had asked the fbi about this man, and i don't remember the words he used in the letter, but they are in that letter, but words to the effect that they passed on him, or he was harmless, or he was something, suggesting that he was all right, he said, from their point of view. mr. jenner. that is, de mohrenschildt says in this letter that he made an inquiry of the fbi and the fbi reassured him? mr. glover. yes. mr. jenner. that is, oswald was all right? mr. glover. yes. mr. jenner. i don't want to put words in your mouth. i want you to, by your recollection of what was stated, repeat it again so that it is not in my words. mr. glover. yes. well, i did get the impression from what i recall of his letter, that he had checked with the fbi, and i remember he stated specifically in the letter, either in fort worth or dallas, about oswald, and they told him that he was apparently all right, he was acceptable. they passed on him in some way. i don't remember the exact way he put it. it is in the letter. mr. jenner. had you had any discussion with de mohrenschildt on that subject on or about the time of your meeting the oswalds? mr. glover. when i got this letter, it reminded me that at one time when they were first talking about putting marina somewhere, getting her to go somewhere, that he had made some remark to the same effect, that he had some people who were very dubious of the situation, they didn't want to have anything to do with the people, and he told them he checked with the fbi and they were all right, or words to that effect. mr. jenner. you used an expression a few minutes ago that apparently you made a mistake. do you recall that? mr. glover. yes. mr. jenner. in this connection, what do you mean by that? mr. glover. i referred directly to one thing, i made the mistake of assuming that a man in his situation--of assuming that, because this man had the history of having been in russia, apparently, and had brought his russian wife with him, and so forth, that the fbi would know all about it, and although i was very much perplexed by him, i felt that he must be not a dangerous person. i don't think the fbi thought he was as dangerous as he was, and i think i made a mistake when i assumed that they could know that he was harmless. i assumed that the fbi would know about such a person, and in having this conversation with them, they said, of course they are not able to do that. mr. jenner. did you have any contact with the fbi prior to november , , concerning the oswalds, or either of them? mr. glover. i did not. mr. jenner. did they--they didn't interview you, and you made no calls or had any contact with them? mr. glover. that's right. mr. jenner. what was your impression of oswald on this first occasion that you met him? mr. glover. well, i didn't get too much of an impression. i didn't really talk to him very much. mr. jenner. did you get an impression of him being a man of education, or lack of it? mr. glover. i certainly got the impression that he was someone who had a fairly lowly background and didn't have very much in his life. mr. jenner. very much in his life in the way of material things? mr. glover. yes; i would say so. mr. jenner. or very much in the way of an education? mr. glover. material, educational, and spiritual. mr. jenner. spiritual or education or material? mr. glover. that is the impression i got, but it's hard to put that down as an impression of this first meeting exactly. my impression does not come very much from the first meeting where i did not talk to him very much. subsequently talking with schmidt and the subsequent meeting at my house and talking with the other people, my impression comes from that total rather than any detailed thing he said. mr. jenner. then i will ask you what, as near as you can fix it, what your impression of oswald was? let's say, as of november , ? i am not thinking in terms that you thought about him on that day, but i am trying to fix a cutoff period. mr. glover. well, i came to the conclusion that he was, in the first place, obviously a fellow who was not satisfied with anything. he was not satisfied with what was in this country originally. he was not satisfied with the life in russia. and he was not adjusting at all when he came back, so he was very maladjusted. mr. jenner. had you had the impression that, or did you have the impression that he was generally a maladjusted person? mr. glover. well, certainly from his whole situation i would conclude that he was maladjusted. in the course of fitting into a social and political group at all, he didn't adjust, didn't fit in. mr. jenner. had you had the impression then that he was not a person of sufficient education with background or capacity, for example, for travel or to become a part of the group strata of society in which you moved? mr. glover. oh, yes; i had the impression that he did not have a capacity to do that. my best word to describe him, my own personal word is that he was a ne'er-do-well. he did not adjust anywhere. he obviously didn't get along with his wife. he was very---- mr. jenner. was that obvious to you in her presence when you saw him in her presence? mr. glover. no; it was not obvious. this was only obvious from the description the de mohrenschildts gave, but i still think this is a very important thing. i don't judge another person by the detailed things he says. i judge a person by the whole style of his life. this includes his relationship to other people, like his wife. mr. jenner. i agree. the reason i pressed you again there was to bring out whether you were relying entirely on what the de mohrenschildts said to you, or whether you were also relying on your contacts with the oswalds and the general reputation in that community in which you lived in regard to that. they had views towards the oswalds, and when i say community, i mean a circle of people. mr. glover. yes. well, i have to admit that i have no direct evidence of the two oswalds having trouble, but it was mentioned by the de mohrenschildts, and i don't know whether by anyone else, that they didn't get along. and that fact also, along with this, would fit into the picture, as i learned later, he lost his job here in dallas. and he had apparently lost his job in fort worth, and this added to the picture of someone who wasn't able to adjust. and such people who cannot adjust in their own work are very likely to be people who are not happy in their homelife and take it out on people in the homelife. this is the inference i gave, and the only evidence i have is what de mohrenschildt told me about that. i cannot say that i observed the oswalds being antagonistic to each other. mr. jenner. now this first occasion then was an evening at the de mohrenschildts, that he called you up without you having any prior notice, that the oswalds were going to be there, and you went over and met them? mr. glover. no. mr. jenner. you knew in advance? mr. glover. i believe they said when they called that these people were going to be there. i don't know how much notice they gave. mr. jenner. is there anything about which you haven't testified that struck you about the oswalds on that occasion? mr. glover. no; i don't believe so. mr. jenner. did he speak russian during the course of the evening? mr. glover. i'm not sure. mr. jenner. all right. or at least a language that was not english? mr. glover. i really couldn't be sure on that point. mr. jenner. did she take part in the conversation to any extent? mr. glover. well, she never did take part in the conversation very much. mr. jenner. when was the last occasion you saw the oswalds? mr. glover. this, as i said before, was a few days to a week, i believe, after the time i saw them at the de mohrenschildts'. mr. jenner. was that at your home? mr. glover. that was at my home. mr. jenner. was this a visit or an assembly that you organized? mr. glover. yes; i was the prime mover in organizing it. mr. jenner. tell us what motivated you and what you went about doing, and who was there. mr. glover. well, i didn't get a very good impression of oswald this first time, because i didn't talk with him. but i talked with volkmar schmidt, and we talked with dick pierce, who was living with us, and we talked about it. i asked dick if he would like to meet this fellow, like to see what he was like, because the whole thing seemed rather an unbelievable story that this could happen. it was unknown as far as my experience is concerned. and mrs. de mohrenschildt had been pushing the fact that marina did not have anyone to converse with, and she also said that lee would not make any effort to help his wife learn english. mr. jenner. all right. now, i would like a little more development of that. who made the statement to you? mr. glover. one of the de mohrenschildts. mr. jenner. one of the de mohrenschildts? this was not merely an idle remark, a chance remark made one time, but had they mentioned it several times? mr. glover. i believe so; yes. mr. jenner. in talking to you about the oswalds? mr. glover. i would say so. mr. jenner. they did say collectively--i mean--they did say affirmatively that one of the problems was that lee oswald was adverse to his wife marina, learning the english language, or to use the english language? mr. glover. certainly that he didn't make any effort to help her. mr. jenner. all right, okay, go ahead about your party now. mr. glover. it so happened at this time that ruth paine, who is an acquaintance of mine---- mr. jenner. how did you become acquainted with ruth paine? mr. glover. i became acquainted with ruth paine either through the unitarian church here in dallas, or through a singing group which had members in it, from the unitarian church, i am not sure which. as i remember, it may not be entirely correct, but sometime after ' , i think, ' to ' in there, i was more active. i had joined the unitarian church sometime after coming to dallas, and i used to sing some time in the church choir, and my former wife did sing much more than i did. sometime during that period michael paine came to sing with the unitarian church. it seems he had been trying out various choirs around the town. mr. jenner. had you known him prior to this time? mr. glover. i had not and i don't think his wife came there much to the church. i am not sure whether she ever came to the church. i believe she is a quaker, and i think she came very little to the church. maybe she did come and sing in the choir. subsequently it was, as i remember, it was through him that i met her, and probably at a singing group which was organized, in which the majority of the members of the singing group were people who sing in the unitarian choir. mr. jenner. was this kind of a madrigal group? mr. glover. yes. this was what it was called, depending on the membership at any time. they sing all kinds of things. mr. jenner. go ahead about your party. mr. glover. okay, so i knew at this time i had seen ruth paine on a few occasions in the past months or a year, and i must have been talking with her or seen her somewhere previous to this time of the party, at which time she mentioned that she was going, she thought she was going to teach a course in russian at st. mark school; and that she was trying to brush up on the russian, on--or maybe i am just thinking she said this latter. but she was interested, and i didn't really know--i think at that time i was aware of the fact she had majored in russian in school, or knew russian very well, and de mohrenschildt's wife jeanne, was trying to find someone who could converse with her, and i thought i would tell ruth paine about her, maybe she would be interested in talking with this woman. so i invited her, and she said she would be interested. that is the explanation of how she came. mr. jenner. did you tell ruth paine about the oswalds, to the extent that you knew about them at that time? mr. glover. i am sure i did. mr. jenner. did she indicate whether she had any acquaintance or knowledge of the oswalds? mr. glover. well, it never occurred to me to question this until it was brought up by the fbi. as far as i know, this was completely new to her. mr. jenner. your reaction at that time, in any event, was, as far as mrs. paine is concerned, your knowledge of her, she knew nothing about the oswalds? mr. glover. that's right, completely new to her. dick pierce came. at the time, dick kept company with a girl who works at the laboratory, betty macdonald, and she came along. i believe he invited her to come. mr. jenner. did she speak russian? mr. glover. no; she did not. mr. jenner. all right, then you had pierce accompanied by betty macdonald? mr. glover. right. mr. jenner. and you had ruth paine. was she accompanied by her husband? mr. glover. yes. mr. jenner. she was accompanied by her husband on that occasion? mr. glover. i am pretty sure that he was there. again i am not a hundred percent sure. i think we talked about this, the three of us, that were living together. i am sure he was there. mr. jenner. were you aware that mrs. paine and her husband were separated? mr. glover. i was. mr. jenner. as of that time? mr. glover. i knew about that situation; yes. i don't think i invited him particularly, although i may have mentioned him, but i invited her because of the russian. norm fredricksen was in the office next to me, and i told him about the situation and asked him if he would be interested in coming, and he said he would come and he came. mr. jenner. is he a married man? mr. glover. yes. mr. jenner. did he bring mrs. fredricksen? mr. glover. he brought mrs. fredricksen; yes, sir. i had the impression at that time that norm had been the most studious of the three that had taken russian and he was continuing. he was going to graduate school and he wanted to make it a major language. at least that was the motive he presented to me. i was interested in someone who could speak russian and could hear both these people talk, so i invited him. i think that is all the people that were there. i know that when i talked to the fbi, i omitted betty macdonald's name in my statement. mr. jenner. at least for the moment this exhausts your recollection as to who attended your party? mr. glover. i believe so. i don't call it a party. mr. jenner. i think you mentioned the de mohrenschildts. did they drop in? mr. glover. yes; for a few minutes, and went somewhere else. they were going somewhere. mr. jenner. did the discussion take place--were there any discussions during the course of that evening with lee oswald which dealt with his political views? mr. glover. yes; there were discussions. mr. jenner. tell us about them. mr. glover. again i have to give an overall impression i got. this may be partly as a result of questioning from some of the people present, but among the things that came out was that, and again i mentioned this before in connection with the other meeting, it is an overall impression--he was apparently a marxist. now i am not sure that i can say that he said exactly these words himself, or whether this was repeated to me after by schmidt or pierce or mrs. paine or someone, but as i say, i pay less attention to what a person says in detail than to the overall impression of what their style is; but i do remember specifically that he or someone else present said he was a marxist---- mr. jenner. what impression did you have of the distinction, if any, between marxism and communism? mr. glover. well, with reference specifically to the so-called communist regime, the impression i got was that he was a marxist theoretically, but he did not like what he saw in russia. he didn't like it and came back, but apparently this did not satisfy him. mr. jenner. he had theories, but what he saw in russia didn't measure up to those theories? mr. glover. apparently so. mr. jenner. his so-called ideals? mr. glover. yes. mr. jenner. in any event, he had--what he had come back to here in america didn't measure up to what he---- mr. glover. apparently. he said so. mr. jenner. would you put that in your own words. what did he say on this occasion? mr. glover. again i have to qualify this. maybe it is one of the impressions i got from other people talking afterwards, but i feel he said that he did not think that the russian system measured up at all to his idea of what the society should be like, and obviously he didn't think the american system measured up or he wouldn't have gone there in the first place, and i am sure he said he did not think the american system measured up to his ideals. mr. jenner. was there any discussion about his life or their life in russia? mr. glover. yes; there was considerable. mr. jenner. tell us about that. mr. glover. well, the thing i remember was that he was working in some kind of a trade. i don't remember what trade he was working at. and i don't remember really too many strong impressions. the strong impression i got of things that he talked about were the--was the fact that his wife was not treated very well in russia after she married him. she was apparently looked down on. this was the impression i had from listening to oswald, either oswald or conversation with his wife. mr. jenner. that occurred at this meeting at your house? mr. glover. i believe so, yes. mr. jenner. by the way, how did you get the oswalds there? did you call them directly, or did you have somebody intervene for you? how was that arranged? mr. glover. i talked with the de mohrenschildts as to where they lived. by this time he was living in dallas. he had gotten a job in dallas and they were living in dallas. mr. jenner. jaggars-chiles-stovall? mr. glover. i don't know the name of the company, but i asked them (de mohrenschildts) about where he lived, and they gave me his telephone number at the place where he worked. i still have his telephone number and i called him and asked him if he would come over to the house to meet some people, some such words as that, and he said, he would. i believe he gave me the address. it might have been the de mohrenschildts who gave me the address originally. i have that address and had it on a slip of paper in my purse, and when i was about to throw away the slip of paper on which i accumulated a lot of addresses, i copied it down in my address book. i just in--i just had a feeling i ought to record this. mr. jenner. he lived on elsbeth street? mr. glover. he lived on elsbeth, that's right. the only thing i remember about the place at work was that i think he worked in the photographic department of some, apparently something to do with a printing plant. then i called him and i asked him if he would come over, and he didn't have any transportation, and i offered to come over and pick him up. my wife remembers that i was down at the ice rink skating. i went down there early and picked him up on the way back home. mr. jenner. was anything said during the time that you knew oswald or had any contact with him as to whether he was able to drive an automobile and operate an automobile? mr. glover. i do not recall anything said about that. mr. jenner. i ask you to state the discussions that occurred at this party in your home, or gathering, let's put it that way. would that be a better description? it was a gathering rather than a party? mr. glover. well, of course, one's immediate reaction to being associated with any dastardly act or event is of course so painful that i shrink away from him. it wasn't a party. it was a gathering for a fairly specific reason, to look at this fellow and let some other people look at him and see what they made of him, so i call it a gathering. mr. jenner. i think that that is a fair statement of it, in any event. tell us what he said his life in russia was like, his views, if he expressed any views, and then i am going to ask you after that your impression of the man. mr. glover. well, i don't really recall anything that he said specifically. seems like his conversation was of the type where he did not initiate very much himself. he answered questions, and maybe it is partly hindsight, now, i don't know, and it is hard to say, one has the impression that he wasn't very candid at all. he was not the open type of person who one might have hoped for. maybe it was too much to hope, but i believe it has happened of people who have done, say, something like he did in the direction of russia, and have realized how wrong it was and have come back to the fold, and have been candid about their experiences, and of people who have gone in a communist direction certainly, and who have retraced their steps and come back to realize the truth of the matter and have been very candid about it. and he was certainly not a candid person. i do not remember specifically anything he said. it is hard really to get a very good impression of things. it seems like he was trying to go along with things. he was enjoying being asked questions by people, and he was going along with the questioning. that was the impression i got. i remember this discussion of what he was doing (for work), but i don't remember what it was. i remember his discussion of the--it might have been his wife, i am not sure of which one it was, the uneven man to woman ratio in russia. and i don't know that that occurred that night or sometime previous on another occasion. it might have occurred on another occasion with his wife only present, but that fact was brought out about the uneven ratio, and i got the impression that might have been one of the reasons that she jumped at a chance to marry someone. an fbi man pointed out to me that this was not very logical because of the differences in the age. she is very young, and the people were--who were killed off in world war ii would be in my generation of or years old and there might not be much competition there. but that was the impression i got. then there was also something mentioned about the treatment of the cubans. it seems they lived near a place where there were cubans. mr. jenner. it seems what? mr. glover. it seems they were living at or near a place where cubans who had been brought from cuba by the communist regime were being indoctrinated. mr. jenner. this is while they were in russia? mr. glover. this is while they were in russia, yes. mr. jenner. then it must have been in the town, at least they knew of some cubans being in russia? mr. glover. i used the words "being indoctrinated," because i assume this is what was going on. i don't think he used that word. mr. jenner. did he indicate that he had any contact with them? mr. glover. nothing specifically that i remember was said about having actual contact with individuals, but quite a bit was said about the treatment. actual contact, i don't know whether he said that, but it didn't stick in my mind that he had any actual contact, but they did talk about the way they were treated, and he gave the impression they were really treated well. mr. jenner. the cubans were? mr. glover. the cubans were really treated well and given everything they wanted, and lots of girls for them, and the girls all fell for the cubans, as it were, you know. mr. jenner. did oswald express views with respect to castro and the cubans? mr. glover. i could not remember any specific view about them, but i got the impression from his description of the cubans who were there, that he might have been trying to create the impression that the cubans were very much accepted by the russians. apparently, in all this conversation, i believe he was being very cagey about making statements, but he would give the impression that these people must have been pretty nice. they were being treated so by the russians. actually, he gave it as a matter of fact that they were being treated very well. i don't remember him having said anything specifically about his liking or not liking the cubans or castro. mr. jenner. anything else that occurred that evening with respect to conversation and his political views and life in russia that you now recall? mr. glover. no; i don't think there is anything that i recall right at the moment. mr. jenner. did mrs. paine take part in these discussions? mr. glover. yes; she talked to both oswald and she talked to his wife very much. mr. jenner. when she talked to marina, in what language did she speak? mr. glover. well, i believe what she said, she said in russian. i don't believe marina was able to converse in english. mr. jenner. did she translate for marina? mr. glover. yes; i believe she did. mr. jenner. did oswald translate for her? mr. glover. marina, i cannot be sure about that. i don't remember that he did. mr. jenner. this was in a house or in an apartment? mr. glover. it was in a house. mr. jenner. did the women kind of move around and the men gather together, or would, as sometimes happens at meetings of this nature, were you all gathered generally in the same room or the same general vicinity and everybody take part in the social intercourse and interplay? mr. glover. well, i don't remember any particular pattern. the only person who would talk very much to marina was ruth paine, because she was the only woman. mr. jenner. what about the de mohrenschildts? did they just drop in and leave right away? mr. glover. they stayed a very brief time. mr. jenner. did the de mohrenschildts take part? there wasn't anybody other than mrs. paine, or possibly lee oswald, to translate for marina, is that a fair statement? mr. glover. that's right. the de mohrenschildts did not come in at the beginning of the evening. they came sometime, if i remember, around o'clock and stayed a short while and left. mr. jenner. did your guests press oswald as to his political views? mr. glover. yes; he had been in russia. he didn't think very much of that. he didn't think much of the united states' system, but what it was about the system, he didn't know. mr. jenner. in other words, they pressed him so they backed him in a corner, to use the vernacular, and he had no real answers? mr. glover. that's right. i think they ascertained that pretty well. mr. jenner. he just reiterated, "i am a marxist," or "i believe in communism," or i have these ideals, but i haven't found the ideal site anywhere? so far, that is a fairly general statement? mr. glover. i think so. mr. jenner. since i said so much about it, is there anything you want to elaborate on in that connection? mr. glover. no; i think what you said i agree to, that he was essentially more on the defensive. they asked him, as i just stated, what is the answer, and he essentially stated he didn't know the answer. mr. jenner. do you have any impression as to why, if you had an impression at all, why this man did not want his wife to learn english? and if so, what was that impression? mr. glover. well, the impression i had was simply one of maybe wanting to control her, but i did not think of anything beyond the usual situation which can happen with a man and his wife, where one person of the two is much, is very much the dominating person. mr. jenner. did you feel he was the dominating person in the couple? mr. glover. i certainly did, because in the first place, the story i heard was they were trying to find a place for marina where she could get away from him, but this later time they appeared to get along, so i assumed she was staying with him. mr. jenner. what impression did you have of him then and subsequently, as to whether he was a stable person? mr. glover. i did not think of stability at all, because he was fairly well behaved at the times i saw him. it is true, i did not think he was very candid, but i felt---- mr. jenner. you did not think he was very candid? mr. glover. i did not think he was very candid, no; but i felt that whatever he was doing, he was able to get along in some way. but i had the impression of his being a ne'er-do-well sort of fellow, who would go from one place to another, never making adjustments very well. i did not get the impression, as i stated before, i did not get the impression of him being violent, which later came out, and---- mr. jenner. did you have any impression as to whether he was a man who was well-adjusted, poorly adjusted, or otherwise? mr. glover. well, in the sense that if a person's whole philosophy of life, what he lives by, is very much in doubt, i would say from that point of view, he was poorly adjusted. from the point of view, possibly of his ability to get along in some fashion, he had one job and he had another job--i mean he apparently worked in fort worth and then he got a job in dallas, and after he left here he went to new orleans and got a job, and he was able to get along in some fashion, but obviously he was poorly adjusted as far as his whole living was concerned. mr. jenner. do you have an opinion of how much maturity, a person lacking in maturity, or what view, if any, do you have in that connection, or did you acquire? mr. glover. well, in the sense that a person is not mature until he discovers what he is living by, he certainly was very immature. he apparently never did develop any set rules by which he lived by, in spite of his purported marxism. apparently the dominating thing in this--in his life was that he had grown up in a poor environment, and i am getting this from what i have read in the newspapers. it is sort of hindsight. mr. jenner. try to keep that out as much as possible. i am trying to get your impression gleaned from the times you met the man. mr. glover. well, i would say that i didn't really have any impression of great instability. but i had the impression that he didn't know what he wanted at all. mr. jenner. did you have any impression that he was not capable of knowing what he wanted? i don't mean mental operation. i mean a man whose background was so shallow, and education so limited, that he really had no capacity for determining in any reasonable capacity since, what his regions of reaching and desires were? mr. glover. well, i would guess, i thought at the time that a person in his situation who had done the things he did, it looked like if he had never discovered what he wanted to live by by that time, that he probably never would discover what he was going to live by--of course i didn't keep contact with him after this meeting--and, consequently, had no further chance to observe him. mr. jenner. i am going to talk about that in a moment. mr. glover. okay. mr. jenner. did you get any impression of him as to whether he felt the world had treated him poorly and he had any grudge as to the world, his lot in life, if not directed toward any person, that he decided he would rationalize to avoid self-analysis? mr. glover. i didn't get a very strong impression of that at all at the time. i think he was particularly well behaved when we met him, because i think he was pretty much flattered that someone else would take an interest in him, and i think he ate this up to be questioned about something by somebody who might have some status in society where he didn't have any. but i didn't get the impression that he was terribly bitter about this. i got the impression he was very unsatisfied and unadjusted, maladjusted. he didn't make any adjustment. mr. jenner. during the conversation, did he make any remarks, that you recall, concerning the united states? mr. glover. no; he did not make any remarks, except the remarks about the system not being a satisfactory one. mr. jenner. was president kennedy mentioned? mr. glover. i do not believe so. mr. jenner. did he say anything as to whether he was involved in or supporting any particular political causes? mr. glover. no; he did not say anything about that at all. mr. jenner. you got no impression that evening as to whether he might or could be or was--might be or could be or was a person given to violence? mr. glover. no; i did not get the impression that he was given to violence, except for the fact that he had mistreated his wife, apparently, according to the de mohrenschildts. they led me to think that he might take out his aggression, as a psychologist might say, but certainly not the violence of the type of the assassination or something like this. mr. jenner. that is the last occasion that you saw the oswalds? mr. glover. essentially that is the last. i hedge a little bit on this because i faintly recollect that de mohrenschildt came by the house where i was living once, and he may have had oswald with him, but it was nothing but a passing meeting. if it existed, i am not quite sure. it was nothing of significance that existed. mr. jenner. did you see or meet, or were you present at any time subsequent to this meeting when marina was present? mr. glover. yes; i was present at one time. let's see now, the sequence of events after that were, de mohrenschildt left for haiti sometime in early may. i am not really sure whether it is before they left. i guess it might have been before they left, or right after they left. i had a record player which they had loaned me. mr. jenner. from the de mohrenschildts? mr. glover. the de mohrenschildts had loaned me, and when pierce and schmidt moved in, they had record players, and they (de mohrenschildts) wanted to give the record player to marina. mr. jenner. the de mohrenschildts? mr. glover. yes; i had the record player, so one night when pierce and i were going to visit a friend for dinner, a fellow by the name of bob tabbert, who i used to work with, we brought the record player with us and left it off at marina's place. now at that time i knew where they lived, because i picked them up before at elsbeth, and this time it was in the evening and we drove up by the apartment where they lived, and just as we drove up, marina was wheeling her baby on the side of the road, and it was obvious she was going somewhere else, and it was difficult to communicate with her, but apparently she knew about the record player, and she pointed up to a house, and we drove and waited in the street until she went to a door in the house, and we understood she lived there, and it was somewhat of a ramshackled house, and it was around the corner, i don't know the name of the street, i could find it, i'm sure, it was the first---- mr. jenner. neely street? mr. glover. i don't remember the name. i could find the street, because it was the first street on the left going north on elsbeth. mr. jenner. in any event, this was an apartment building or home different from the one in which you picked them up in february of ? mr. glover. that's right. so i gave her the record player. mr. jenner. gave it to her? mr. glover. that's right. that is what de mohrenschildt asked me to do. mr. jenner. lee oswald did not appear on the scene at that time? mr. glover. no; he was not there. mr. jenner. did you know he was not there? mr. glover. no; i didn't know he was not there; no. well, i am not sure about that. seems to me, yes, that i asked if her husband was there, because the record player had been standing waiting to be taken over there for sometime when we were going, and it had fallen off and had the arm damaged, and i could not converse with her, and i tried to explain, and i asked if her husband was there, and i had the impression he wasn't there, and i am not sure about that. mr. jenner. then what we have referred to was the last contact you had with marina? mr. glover. that was the last time i saw her. mr. jenner. did mrs. paine ever talk to you about marina at any time thereafter? mr. glover. the paines, either one or the other, talked to me after that time. on one occasion i got a call on the telephone, i am not sure whether it was mr. or mrs. paine, in which they said the record player--i believe it was the same one i had given or taken over to her that belonged to the de mohrenschildts, was there at their house, and that she--first of all, the events after that went like this. the de mohrenschildts left and they told me oswald lost his job and had gone to new orleans. then i believe it was only later through the paines that i learned, i believe it was a telephone conversation, that marina was staying there with them, or had been staying with them, and also left to go to new orleans. mr. jenner. this was in the spring of ? mr. glover. this was sometime after the first of may. and i think at this time i learned through them that marina had gone to join him in new orleans. mr. jenner. was anything said about mrs. paine having taken marina to new orleans? mr. glover. nothing was said about her taking her to new orleans, but i do believe i knew at that time that marina had stayed with her. i think i learned it through conversation with them. i don't remember having heard from or seen the paines since the time they were at my house until the time that i have learned marina had gone to new orleans and had previously stayed with ruth. and until the time that mike came over and delivered the record player. i think mike was the one who brought the record player, and i don't remember the circumstances on that, but i believe it was he. i am not sure i was home. i am not sure about that. mr. jenner. by the way, that letter that de mohrenschildt wrote you from haiti, does this refresh your recollection more exactly as to his remarks about what you have testified: "it is interesting, but before we began to help marina and the child, we asked the fbi man in dallas or in fort worth about lee, and he told us he was completely harmless?" mr. glover. yes; he used the word harmless, but i wasn't sure i was quoting what he said. mr. jenner. are you recounting a sequence of events with respect to marina? mr. glover. yes; so i learned, at the time they brought the record player, that she had gone to new orleans. then the only other connection i had with them was that later than that, and now again i am not quite sure about the date, but it seems it must have been after i was married and i was still living on southwestern, but i got a call from one of the paines saying they had records that the de mohrenschildts had given marina. these were for russian speaking people learning english, i believe, that they had, and what to do with them? and i said, bring them over here and i will store them. and i remember talking, and i remember michael paine brought the records over to me and came in the house, and i talked with him a little bit. at this time michael paine told me the last information i had about them. he told me that, i am not sure whether he said they were back, marina was coming back, or marina had already come back to dallas, that lee had lost his job and that lee was coming back, and that was in the time i believe---- mr. jenner. was coming back to live or was visiting? mr. glover. well, was coming back. presumably he lost his job and was coming back here. mr. jenner. lost his job in new orleans? mr. glover. right; and he was coming back here to live. that is the last i heard of them until the event of november d. mr. jenner. all right. now, is there anything mr. glover, that has occurred to you that you would like to add to the record that you think might be helpful to the commission in its investigation of the assassination of president kennedy and any of the people about which i have questioned you, and--or anything else that you think might help the commission in the task of ascertaining the basic facts and truths with respect to that tragic event? mr. glover. i don't believe there is anything else i have of any value to add. mr. jenner. now you understand the rules of the commission. you may, if you wish, read over your testimony, and it will be available to you next week if you wish to do so. if not, you have the privilege of waiving that right should you so desire. you also have the privilege of signing the deposition, if you prefer to do that. that is, read and sign it. and you also have the privilege of waiving that right. do you have any reaction on either of those subjects at the moment? mr. glover. i don't have any reaction. i consider this as, because i don't know very much about the legal aspects, i consider this to be a technicality. maybe i should ask someone. mr. jenner. frankly, it is not anything of great moment, but if you wish to, if you prefer--that you read your deposition over it will be available to you next week, should you so desire. mr. glover. i believe so. i think i would like to read it. mr. jenner. i would think that it would be about tuesday. if you will call here and ask for me or ask for mr. liebeler, your transcript will be available. and if you have any changes or corrections call them to our attention and we will make them either on the face of the deposition or ask you to be resworn and then you state the corrections or additions. mr. glover. yes. mr. jenner. with this i have no further questions. i have only this to say, that i appreciate your appearing here voluntarily and inconveniencing yourself, and to the extent i had to inquire into your personal life, i hope you realize that it is part of my job and nothing personal on my part. mr. glover. i have something to say also. i think that it is not a question of my doing anyone a favor. i consider it a duty to tell what i know about such a situation. mr. jenner. all right, that is where we are at the moment. testimony of carlos bringuier the testimony of carlos bringuier was taken on april - , , at the old civil courts building, royal and conti streets, new orleans, la., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. carlos bringuier, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: mr. liebeler. my name is wesley j. liebeler. i am a member of the legal staff of the president's commission investigating the assassination of president kennedy. staff members have been authorized to take testimony of witnesses, including you, by the commission, pursuant to authority granted to the commission by executive order no. dated november , , and joint resolution of congress no. . i understand that mr. rankin wrote to you last week, stating that i would contact you in connection with the taking of your testimony. i understand that he sent with his letter a copy of the executive order and resolution to which i have just referred as well as a copy of the rules of procedure of the commission relating to the taking of testimony of witnesses. did you receive mr. rankin's letter? mr. bringuier. yes, sir; i received it. mr. liebeler. and you received copies of the documents that i have referred to? mr. bringuier. that is right. i received. mr. liebeler. the commission is interested in learning from you, mr. bringuier, about the contact that you had with lee harvey oswald while he was present in new orleans in the summer and early fall of . before we get into the details of that testimony, however, will you state your full name for the record. mr. bringuier. carlos bringuier. mr. liebeler. what is your address, mr. bringuier? mr. bringuier. excuse me one moment. may i explain to you? in cuba we use a long name with a lot of middle names. do you want the whole middle name too? mr. liebeler. no; i think that is enough. mr. bringuier. it is enough? o.k. mr. liebeler. where do you live? mr. bringuier. i live in adele street, apartment f. mr. liebeler. here in new orleans? mr. bringuier. here in new orleans. mr. liebeler. where were you born? mr. bringuier. i was born in havana, june , . mr. liebeler. how long did you live in havana? mr. bringuier. well, i was living in havana until may , . i left havana to guatemala and argentina, and i came to the states in february , . mr. liebeler. you came then to new orleans, is that correct? mr. bringuier. that day i arrived to miami, florida, and i was in miami for days, and i came to new orleans in february , . mr. liebeler. have you been here in new orleans ever since? mr. bringuier. that is right. mr. liebeler. you are a cuban national, is that correct? mr. bringuier. that is correct. mr. liebeler. are you presently employed? mr. bringuier. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. what do you do? mr. bringuier. well, i am a salesman, retail clothing store with the name of casa roca, decatur street. i am a salesman and manager of the store. mr. liebeler. how long have you been so employed? mr. bringuier. i started to work in that store in october , . mr. liebeler. had you been employed here in new orleans prior to that time? mr. bringuier. yes, sir; i was working for year in ward's discount house, canal street. mr. liebeler. you worked there as a salesman also? mr. bringuier. as a salesman also. mr. liebeler. what is your educational background? mr. bringuier. well, i was attorney in cuba and assistant secretary for the criminal court in havana. i got my degree in . mr. liebeler. your degree in what field? mr. bringuier. law. mr. liebeler. in law? mr. bringuier. that is right. mr. liebeler. so you then were trained as a lawyer in cuba---- mr. bringuier. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. prior to the time that castro came to power? is that correct? mr. bringuier. that is correct. mr. liebeler. and did you actually practice law in cuba? mr. bringuier. not actually, no. i didn't practice law, because i was working, as i told you, in the criminal court, and in havana, in cuba, when you was employee of the criminal court, you could not practice law. mr. liebeler. did you become a member of the bar in cuba or do some act that is similar of becoming a member of the bar here in the united states? mr. bringuier. no; i didn't do any act to become here in united states member of bar. mr. liebeler. but in cuba? mr. bringuier. in cuba, yes. mr. liebeler. you actually were a member of the bar in cuba? mr. bringuier. that is right. mr. liebeler. it is my understanding that you have been active in the anti-castro movement here in new orleans. is that correct? mr. bringuier. that is correct. mr. liebeler. am i correct in understanding that you left cuba because of your feeling against the castro regime and your opposition to that regime? mr. bringuier. that is correct. i did not believe in it, i did not agree with the communist regime in cuba. mr. liebeler. as a result, you left cuba and came to the united states? is that correct? mr. bringuier. that is correct. mr. liebeler. has your family joined you here in the united states? mr. bringuier. well, when i went to argentina, i went with my wife and the three kids at that moment, and after i came to the united states alone, and months later they met me here in the states. i want to explain that i am not in the states as a cuban refugee but as an immigrant, as a resident. mr. liebeler. and as an immigrant from cuba, or from some other---- mr. bringuier. from cuba [producing document]. mr. liebeler. you have shown me an identification card from the department of immigration and naturalization, indicating that you were admitted to the united states as an immigrant on february , . is that correct? mr. bringuier. that is correct. (document returned to witness.) mr. liebeler. i am correct in understanding, am i not, that you have been involved to one degree or another in anti-castro activities here in new orleans since your arrival? mr. bringuier. yes, sir; soon after i arrived here to new orleans, i founded a newsletter for the cubans with the name of crusada. that was my first work here in new orleans. after that i joined, at the beginning of , the new orleans delegation of the cuban revolutionary council, and i was working as secretary of publicity and propaganda here in new orleans for the cuban anti-castro. that was, i believe, june or july--june . after that, i resigned, and in july i was designated new orleans delegate of the cuban student directorate, and i am in that position from that time to now. mr. liebeler. did there come a time when you met lee harvey oswald? mr. bringuier. i beg your pardon? mr. liebeler. did there come a time when you met lee harvey oswald? mr. bringuier. yes. mr. liebeler. tell us when that was and the circumstances of the event. mr. bringuier. well, the first day that i saw lee harvey oswald was on august , , but before we go deeper in this matter about oswald, i think that i would like to explain to you two things that i think will facilitate the commission to understand my feeling at that moment. mr. liebeler. that is perfectly all right. go ahead. mr. bringuier. and you see, in august , , my organization, the cuban student directorate, carry on a shelling of havana, and a few days later when person from the fbi contacted me here in new orleans--his name was warren c. de brueys. mr. de brueys was talking to me in the thompson cafeteria. at that moment i was the only one from the cuban student directorate here in the city, and he was asking to me about my activities here in the city, and when i told him that i was the only one, he didn't believe that, and he advised me--and i quote, "we could infiltrate your organization and find out what you are doing here." my answer to him was, "well, you will have to infiltrate myself, because i am the only one." and i want to put this out, because after the assassination of mr. kennedy, when i was interviewed, i told something that some part of the press or some persons now are trying to use to tell that maybe oswald was a man from the fbi or the cia. i will go into that later on. after that, after my conversation with de brueys, i always was waiting that maybe someone will come to infiltrate my organization from the fbi, because i already was told by one of the fbi agent that they will try to infiltrate my organization. next thing is this: on august , , i receive in my store--i have over there the office of the delegation too, the visit of two cubans, who told me that they had already desert from one anti-castro training camp that was across lake pontchartrain here in new orleans. until that moment i did not know nothing about that anti-castro training camp here in the city, and they told me that that anti-castro training camp was a branch of the christian democratic movement--that is another anti-castro organization--and they told me that they had the fear inside the training camp that there was a castro agent inside that training camp. a few days before, too, the police found here in new orleans about mile from that training camp a big lot of ammunition and weapons and all those things, and when oswald came to me on august i had inside myself the feeling, well, maybe this is from the fbi, or maybe this is a communist, because the fbi already had told me that maybe they will infiltrate my organization, but that feeling--i only had that feeling on august , because days later i was convinced that oswald was not an fbi agent and that he was a pro-castro agent. when i told that to the press after the assassination, i saw in some magazines that i was not sure if he was an fbi or not, and that is not the truth, because on august , months before the assassination, i was sure that he was a pro-castro and not an fbi. i want to have that clear. mr. liebeler. to summarize your statement, when oswald came to see you on august ---- mr. bringuier. that is right. mr. liebeler. you were suspicious of him on two different counts? mr. bringuier. that is right. mr. liebeler. one, that he might possibly have been an infiltrator working for the fbi? mr. bringuier. that is right. mr. liebeler. and you were worried about this because of what agent de brueys had said to you---- mr. bringuier. a year ago. mr. liebeler. almost a year prior to that time? mr. bringuier. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. you were also concerned about the possibility that oswald might have been a communist or a castro agent of some sort, who was trying to infiltrate your organization on behalf of that group? mr. bringuier. that is right. now that day, on august , i was talking in the store with one young american--the name of him is philip geraci--and minutes later mr. oswald came inside the store. he start to look around, several articles, and he show interest in my conversation with geraci. i was explaining to geraci that our fight is a fight of cubans and that he was too young, that if he want to distribute literature against castro, i would give him the literature but not admit him to the fight. at that moment also he start to agree with i, oswald start to agree with my point of view and he show real interest in the fight against castro. he told me that he was against castro and that he was against communism. he told me--he asked me first for some english literature against castro, and i gave him some copies of the cuban report printed by the cuban student directorate. after that, oswald told me that he had been in the marine corps and that he had training in guerrilla warfare and that he was willing to train cubans to fight against castro. even more, he told me that he was willing to go himself to fight against castro. that was on august . i turned down his offer. i told him that i don't have nothing to do with military activities, that my only duties here in new orleans are propaganda and information and not military activities. that was my answer to him. he insisted, and he told me that he will bring to me next day one book as a present, as a gift to me, to train cubans to fight against castro. before he left---- mr. liebeler. was geraci present throughout this entire conversation? mr. bringuier. pardon? mr. liebeler. was mr. geraci present throughout this entire conversation that you had with oswald? mr. bringuier. i think so, yes, sir; yes, sir. mr. liebeler. was there a mr. blalock there? mr. bringuier. who? mr. liebeler. blalock, b-l-a-l-o-c-k. do you remember him? mr. bringuier. well, there was another young boy. what was his name did you say? mr. liebeler. blalock, b-l-a-l-o-c-k. mr. bringuier. i could not tell you, because i don't remember the name of the other boy who was there, but i think that i saw him just one time in my life. geraci was with another person over there, another young boy, and---- mr. liebeler. did oswald mention during this conversation that he could easily derail a train, for example, by securing and fastening a chain around the railroad track? do you remember him mentioning something like that? mr. bringuier. well, you see; i do not exactly remember all the details, because we were talking for about--i believe about hour, something like that, and at that moment i didn't know what was going to happen and i didn't pay too much attention to all the things that was being telling over there, but the result of the conversation were this that i am telling to you. maybe he mentioned that. i could not tell to you that he mentioned that, because i am not--i don't remember. he could have mentioned that, because he was talking about the experience that he had in guerrilla warfare in the marine corps. before he left the store, he put his hand in the pocket and he offered me money. mr. liebeler. oswald did? mr. bringuier. yes. mr. liebeler. how much did he offer you? mr. bringuier. well, i don't know. as soon as he put the hand in the pocket and he told me, "well, at least let me contribute to your group with some money," at that moment i didn't have the permit from the city hall here in new orleans to collect money in the city, and i told him that i could not accept his money, and i told him that if he want to contribute to our group, he could send the money directly to the headquarters in miami, because they had the authorization over there in miami, and i gave him the number of the post office box of the organization in miami. and after that, i left the store, because i had to go to the bank to make the deposit, and oswald was in the store talking to my brother-in-law--that is my partner in the store--rolando pelaez. mr. liebeler. is that p-e-l-a-e-z? mr. bringuier. that is right. oswald was talking to him for about half an hour, and later on when i came back from the bank i asked to my brother-in-law, "well, what do you think about this guy who was here?" mr. liebeler. did he tell you his name was lee oswald? mr. bringuier. yes; he told me that his name was lee oswald, and he told me one address in magazine street, but i didn't remember at that moment the number, and when i asked to my brother-in-law that, he told me that oswald looked like really a smart person and really interested in the fight against communism, and he gave to my brother a good impression, and i told my brother that i could not trust him, because--i didn't know what was inside of me, but i had some feeling that i could not trust him. i told that to my brother that day. next day, on august , oswald came back to the store, but i was not in the store at that moment, and he left with my brother-in-law a guidebook for marines for me with the name "l. h. oswald" in the top of the first page. when i came back to the store, my brother-in-law gave to me the guidebook for marines. i was looking in the guidebook for marines. i found interest in it and i keep it, and later--i forgot about that just for days more--on august i was coming back to the store at o'clock in the afternoon, and one friend of mine with the name of celso hernandez came to me and told me that in canal street there was a young man carrying a sign telling "viva fidel" in spanish, and some other thing about cuba, but my friend don't speak nothing in english, and the only thing that he understood was the "viva fidel" in spanish. he told me that he was blaming the person in spanish, but that the person maybe didn't understood what he was telling to him and he came to me to let me know what was going on over there. at that moment was in the store another cuban with the name of miguel cruz, and we went all three with a big sign that i have in the store in color. the sign is the statue of liberty with a knife in the back, and the hand, knifing her in the back, has the initials of the soviet union, and it said, "danger. only miles from the united states cuba lies in chains." we pick up the sign and we went to canal street to find the guy. we were walking all canal street to rampart street, but we could not find him. we were asking to different people in the street, but nobody saw him, nobody told us, yes, i saw him, or, he went to this side. i decided to get a canal streetcar to search for him, and we went in the canal streetcar until about the block of canal street, and we came back in the canal streetcar, but we could not find him at that moment. i went back to the store, but just or minutes later one of my two friends, miguel cruz, came back running and told me that the guy was another time in canal street and that celso was watching him over there. i went over there with the sign another time, and i was surprised when i recognized that the guy with the sign hanging on the chest, said, "viva fidel" and "hands off cuba," was lee harvey oswald. until that moment i only knew oswald as a guy who was offering his service to train cubans, and when i saw that he was with a sign defending fidel castro and praising fidel castro, i became angry. that was in the block of canal street just in front of the store where i was working my first year here in new orleans. mr. liebeler. was that the international trade mart? mr. bringuier. no; ward discount house. he make another appearance in the international trade mart, later, and i will go into that, too. when i saw that was oswald and he recognized me, he was also surprised, but just for a few seconds. immediately he smiled to me and he offered the hand to shake hands with me. i became more angry and i start to tell him that he don't have any face to do that, with what face he was doing that, because he had just came to me days ago offering me his service and that he was a castro agent, and i start to blame him in the street. that was a friday around o'clock at this moment, and many people start to gather around us to see what was going on over there. i start to explain to the people what oswald did to me, because i wanted to move the american people against him, not to take the fight for myself as a cuban but to move the american people to fight him, and i told them that that was a castro agent, that he was a pro-communist, and that he was trying to do to them exactly what he did to us in cuba, kill them and send their children to the execution wall. those were my phrases at the moment. the people in the street became angry and they started to shout to him, "traitor! communist! go to cuba! kill him!" and some other phrases that i do not know if i could tell in the record. mr. liebeler. you mean they cursed at him, they swore at him? mr. bringuier. that is right, some bad phrases, bad words. mr. liebeler. yes. mr. bringuier. and at that moment, one of the americans push him by one arm. one policeman came. when policeman came to me and asked me to keep walking and to let oswald distribute his literature that he was handing out--he was handing out yellow leaflets of the fair play for cuba committee, new orleans chapter--and i told to the policeman that i was cuban, i explained to him what oswald did to me, and i told him that i don't know if was against the law, but that i will not leave that place until oswald left and that i will make some trouble. the policeman left, i believe going to some place to call the headquarters, and at one moment my friend celso took the literature from oswald, the yellow sheets, and broke it and threw it on the air. there were a lot of yellow sheets flying. and i was more angry, and i went near oswald to hit him. i took my glasses off and i went near to him to hit him, but when he sensed my intention, he put his arm down as an x, like this here (demonstrating). mr. liebeler. he crossed his arms in front of him? mr. bringuier. that is right, put his face and told me, "o.k. carlos, if you want to hit me, hit me." at that moment, that made me to reaction that he was trying to appear as a martyr if i will hit him, and i decide not to hit him, and just a few seconds later arrive two police cars, and one of the policeman over there was lieutenant gaillot, g-a-i-l-l-o-t. they put oswald and my two friends in one of the police cars, and i went with lieutenant gaillot in the other police car to the first district of police here in new orleans. when we were in the first district of police, we were in the same room, one small room over there, and some of the policemen start to question oswald if he was a communist, what he was doing that, and all those things, and oswald at that moment--that was in front of myself--was really cold blood. he was answering the questions that he would like to answer, and he was not nervous, he was not out of control, he was confident in himself at that moment over there. one of the questions that they asked to him was about his organization, the fair play for cuba, and i saw him showing some papers that--i believe they were the credentials of the fair play for cuba committee, that the fair play for cuba committee is a national organization, and when he told that, he was so kind of proud that it was not a small group but a national group all over the united states, and they asked of him the name of the members. no. excuse me. before they asked him if he has any office. he told them no, that there were--they were holding the meetings in different house, different homes, different members of the organization one night in one house, another night in another house, but in front of me he didn't told nothing about any office. when they asked him about the name of the members, he answered that he could not tell the name of the members in front of myself, because he will not like to let me know who were the ones who were helping him here in the city, and at that moment the police came out of the room and that was the last time that i saw him that day. mr. liebeler. did the police keep you in jail too? mr. bringuier. well, yes. i had to put--they took my fingerprints and my picture, and i have to put $ bond that night with my two friends too, and i don't know, but after the assassination i heard that oswald didn't put the $ bond, that somebody went to the first district and make--i believe you call that an affidavit or something like that, and he will appear in court and he will not have to put the $ . he didn't put the $ bond. that is what i heard. i didn't saw that. i am not sure of that. next time that i saw him---- mr. liebeler. did you appear in court later? mr. bringuier. yes, sir; later. that was august . mr. liebeler. yes, on monday. mr. bringuier. monday. mr. liebeler. and you pleaded not guilty to the offense that you were charged with? mr. bringuier. that is right; that is right. and he plead guilty. mr. liebeler. oswald was there in court? mr. bringuier. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. and you saw him in court? mr. bringuier. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. and that is what you were just about to tell me? mr. bringuier. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. go ahead. mr. bringuier. in august , we appear in the second municipal court in new orleans. i came first with my friends, and there were some other cubans over there, and i saw when oswald came inside the court. i saw him. he went directly to sit down in the middle of the seat of the colored people. see, here in the court you have two sides, one for the white people and one for the colored people, and he walked directly inside of the colored people and he sat directly among them in the middle, and that made me to be angry too, because i saw that he was trying to win the colored people for his side. when he will appear in the court, he will defend fidel castro, he will defend the fair play for cuba, and the colored people will feel good for him, and that is a tremendous work of propaganda for his cause. that is one of the things that made me to think that he was a really smart guy and not a nut. when the judge call us, he plead guilty, i plead not guilty, and my friends plead not guilty. i brought the marines guidebook, the guidebook for marines, and i explain to the judge that the incident was originated when oswald tried to infiltrate the organization and that if he will not do that, i will not have any fight with him in the street, and i showed to him the guidebook for marines with the name of oswald on the top of the first page, and the judge dismisses the charges against us and fined him $ . mr. liebeler. fined oswald $ ? mr. bringuier. ten dollars, that is right. in the court was at that moment one cameraman from wdsu, and he make--he did an interview to oswald after the trial and he took some movies of ourselves, and later i receive one phone call from bill stuckey. i had talk to stuckey the day of the trial in the morning. i met him in the bank and i explained to him what was going on in the second municipal court, and he was the one who send the reporter over there to the trial. i am not sure if was the same day or next day of the trial stuckey called me asking for oswald's address. i get the affidavit from the court dissertation, and i give to him the address in dissertation, and i asked him why he was looking for that. he told me that he was going to make an interview to oswald. i disagreed with him at that moment, i told him that i was thinking that it was not good to let a communist go to radio station and tell all his lies, because there are many people who understand what was happening in cuba, but there are many people who do not know exactly what is happening in cuba. stuckey offered me to make another interview to me next saturday in his program, but i didn't agree with that neither, and i asked him to arrange a radio debate, because in that way we could tell our point of view at the same moment in the same place. on august another friend of mine left to me a message in the store that oswald was another time handing out pro-castro propaganda for the fair play for cuba committee, this time in front of the international trade mart here in new orleans. i wasn't in the store at that moment, and when i came back and i received the message, i went to the international trade mart, but i could not find oswald, he had already left, and i was talking later on with my friend, and the information that i received was that he was over there with two other persons. later i saw the picture of those two persons, and they have a latin aspect. i do not know if they are latin americans or not, but at least there is one who is. mr. liebeler. did somebody show you pictures of these individuals? mr. bringuier. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. who did? mr. bringuier. the secret service tried to see if i know them, if i could identify them. mr. liebeler. [exhibiting photograph to witness.] i show you a picture, which has previously been marked as "pizzo exhibit -a," and i ask you if that is one of the pictures or a picture like the one the secret service showed to you. mr. bringuier. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. [exhibiting photograph to witness.] i show you another picture, which has previously been marked "pizzo exhibit -b." mr. bringuier. [indicating.] see this guy, see this japanese? he is from the kasuga co. here in new orleans. he had the office in international trade mart. mr. liebeler. and you pointed to the person standing immediately behind and to oswald's right with his hands up behind his head? mr. bringuier. [demonstrating.] that is right. mr. liebeler. and that is on exhibit -a. now do you recognize the person with the "x" over his head? mr. bringuier. yes, sir; that was lee harvey oswald. mr. liebeler. now there is a person standing to oswald's left wearing a white shirt and facing the same direction that oswald was facing, and i will indicate that person with a pen mark on the picture. [marking photograph.] i have drawn an arrow pointing to the person to which i refer, and i ask you if you recognize that person. mr. bringuier. no; i don't recognize him. i believe that this is one of the pictures that i saw before, but i don't recognize him. for me, he looked like as a latin american. mr. liebeler. now in the far foreground of this picture, there is a man who has been marked with a green mark, just one mark, and we are referring at this point to exhibit -a. do you recognize that person? mr. bringuier. no, sir. mr. liebeler. is that another one of the individuals to which you referred as having a latin-type complexion, or is it not? mr. bringuier. no, sir. i believe--no; this is not the one that i said. mr. liebeler. i have one other picture here of this scene which has not previously been marked, and i will show that picture to you and ask you if you can identify anybody in that picture with the exception of oswald, of course. [exhibiting photograph to witness.] mr. bringuier. the only one that i could recognize here is oswald. mr. liebeler. and he is the person with the "hands off cuba"? mr. bringuier. "hands off cuba" leaflets in his hand, the first one in front, just in the middle of the picture. mr. liebeler. [marking photograph.] i have marked the picture i just referred to as "exhibit no. " to your deposition. mr. bringuier. do you want that i sign the picture? mr. liebeler. yes. would you initial the picture for identification purposes? (the witness complied.) mr. liebeler. thank you. mr. bringuier. you want that i sign these too? mr. liebeler. no. we have identified those as pizzo exhibits -a and -b, and you have noted that they are---- mr. bringuier. yes. mr. liebeler. i thought you mentioned that there were two different people that appeared to you to be latin people. mr. bringuier. sure. this one that i see here [indicating], this is the one looked like to me a latin, but, if i am not wrong, somebody showed me another picture where is another guy distributing the leaflets. i believe so. mr. liebeler. do you think that was a secret service man or an fbi agent? do you know? mr. bringuier. i think that was a secret service man. maybe i am wrong. i saw those days a lot of pictures; but--let me tell you something else: if my opinion is not wrong, if i am not mistaken this moment, i think that the other man was maybe in some kind of bermuda shorts or something like that. mr. liebeler. i don't have any pictures in my possession showing that. the commission has requested the actual film, the tv film itself, to be delivered to it, and they will examine it, and if such a person does appear in the films, i will send you a picture of it. mr. bringuier. okay. mr. liebeler. and i will also speak to the secret service about it and see if we can find such a picture. according to the secret service, one of these gentlemen has been identified as mr. charles hall steele, jr. mr. bringuier. he was working in the pap's super market here in new orleans. i believe so, that he was working over there. there was one cuban who, when saw his face in the television, called me to tell me that, and i called the secret service and let them know. mr. liebeler. mr. steele will be in the office here this afternoon, so we will have an opportunity to determine if it is the same man that was marked with the arrow in pizzo exhibit -a or not. so you went over to the international trade mart on this day in an attempt to find oswald, but you were not successful? is that correct? mr. bringuier. that is correct. after that my friend showed to me one of the leaflets that oswald was handing out in front of the international trade mart, the yellow leaflets, and i found something interesting at this point. there was a difference among the leaflets that he was handing out on august in the international trade mart and the leaflets that he was handing out on canal street on august . mr. liebeler. what was the difference? mr. bringuier. the leaflet he was handing out on canal street august didn't have his name of oswald, at least the ones that i saw. they have the name a. j. hidell, and one post office box here in new orleans and the address, and the leaflets that he was handing out on august have the name l. h. oswald, magazine street. in the yellow leaflets he was offering free literature and lectures, and he was asking to the people to join the new orleans chapter of the fair play for cuba committee, and at the end he said, "everyone welcome." my friend asked to me if i think that it would be good that he will go to oswald's house posing as a pro-castro and try to get as much information as possible from oswald. i told him yes; and that night he went to oswald's house with the leaflets. mr. liebeler. what day was this now? do you remember? mr. bringuier. august . i believe so. i think that. i am sure. mr. liebeler. that was the same day that---- mr. bringuier. that he was distributing the leaflets. mr. liebeler. the second time? mr. bringuier. the second time. the first time was a friday, august , and the second time--i think that was another friday, august . my friend went to oswald's house and he was talking to oswald for about hour inside his house, in the porch of the house, and there was when we found that oswald had some connection with russia, or something like that, because the daughter came to the porch and oswald spoke to her in russian, and my friend heard that language and he asked oswald if that was russian, and oswald told him yes, that he was attending tulane university and that he was studying language, that that was the reason why he speak russian. he give to my friend an application to become a member of the new orleans chapter of the fair play for cuba committee. after the assassination my friend turned [over] to the secret service one copy of the application. i have here one, one copy [producing document]. this is a photocopy. my friend keep the original. mr. liebeler. do you have another copy of this? mr. bringuier. no; that is the only one that i have. he has the original. if you want to keep that, for me it is no trouble, because always i could take more copies. mr. liebeler. i see. your friend still has the original? mr. bringuier. the original; that is right. mr. liebeler. well, let's mark this one as "exhibit " to your deposition. off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. liebeler. let the record show that we asked mr. bringuier to initial a picture which we discussed before on the record, and that picture, which is a picture of a street scene in front of the international trade mart has been marked "exhibit " to mr. bringuier's deposition taken here in new orleans on april , . we shall now mark as "exhibit " to that deposition a photocopy of an application to the fair play for cuba committee, new orleans, la., which mr. bringuier says is a copy of an application which was given to a friend of his whose name we have agreed not to indicate on the record, given by lee oswald on or about august , . is that correct? mr. bringuier. yes. mr. liebeler. i have initialed exhibit no. and i ask you to do the same, if you would. [the witness complied.] mr. liebeler. please go ahead. mr. bringuier. at that conversation oswald was defending fidel castro, and he advised to my friend that the united states don't have the right to invade or to overthrow any other government, and that if the united states will do that to cuba, he will fight defending castro, because castro was right. i gave the copy of the transcription of the conversation with my friend to the secret service the days after the kennedy assassination. mr. liebeler. that is the day that you and your friend discussed this after your friend returned from oswald's and you made a recording of that conversation? mr. bringuier. not a recording, not a recording exactly; but when my friend came back from oswald's house, he told me what happened over there and he was trying to contact some authority to let him go deeper inside the fair play for cuba committee here in new orleans. mr. liebeler. your friend was? mr. bringuier. yes; my friend was trying to contact some authorities, because he didn't want to be involved in that matter without the knowledge of the u.s. government. we also discussed this conversation in front of ed butler. mr. liebeler. who? mr. bringuier. ed butler, edward butler, for the information council of the americas, the day or days previous to the debate when my friend and myself went to butler's office, and my friend was explaining to butler all the conversation and the point of view of oswald, and the matter that oswald spoke in russian, and at that moment my friend had found that oswald had been in russia and that he was married to one russian girl. we gave all that information to butler and he was trying to contact some person, somebody in washington, to get more the background of oswald before the debate. after that, the last day that i saw oswald was august , the day of the debate. i went to wdsu radio about : , minutes before the time of the debate. when i went to the lobby, there were already there--bill stuckey and lee harvey oswald. i shake hands with stuckey. stuckey indicate to me that oswald was there. oswald stand up and came to me and shake hands with me. i was talking to stuckey for a few minutes, and after that stuckey left the lobby and went inside the wdsu radio station to check--i believe that was to check in what room we will have the debate. i was talking to oswald that day before the debate started. i was trying to be as friendly to him as i could. i really believe that the best thing that i could do is to get one communist out of the communist party and put him to work against communism, because he know what communism mean, and i told to oswald that i don't have nothing against him in the personal way, just in the ideologic way. i told him that for me it was impossible to see one american being a communist, because communism is trying to destroy the united states, and that if any moment when he will be at bed he will start to think that he can do something good for his country, for his family, and for himself, he could come to me, because i would receive him, because i repeat to him i didn't have nothing against him in the personal way. he smiled to me. he told me--he answered me that he was in the right side, the correct side, and that i was in the wrong side, and that he was doing his best. that were his words at that moment. before we went inside the room of the debate, he saw my guidebook for marines that i was carrying with me, because i did not know what will happen in the debate and i will have to have that weapon with me to destroy him personally as a traitor if he doing something wrong in the debate. when he saw the guidebook for marines, he smiled to me, and he told me, "well, listen, carlos, don't try to do an invasion with that guidebook for marines, because that is an old one and that will be a failure." that was his joke in that moment. after that we went to the debate, and i think that you have the whole history of the debate, you have the transcription and everything, [so] that i don't have to go inside that, because that is subjective, not objective. you have the objective, and that is the debate. mr. liebeler. that is right. we do have a transcript and we listened to it on the tape last night over at the television station too. mr. bringuier. and there is something that i want to show you too. i told to you about the training camp that were across the lake pontchartrain. mr. liebeler. yes. mr. bringuier. [producing newspaper.] at the beginning of august in the diario las americas from miami for september ---- mr. liebeler. for september , ? mr. bringuier. that is right. [indicating photograph.] this is the spy who was inside the training camp. the christian democratic movement turned him over to the fbi, and the fbi was questioning him in miami. the christian democratic movement found a letter, according to this information, from this guy directed to carlos lechuga, former cuban ambassador to mexico and now cuban ambassador to the united nations in new york. in that letter the spy, fernando fernandez, was warning lechuga that they have to be alert from that date to august , and the day that oswald came trying to infiltrate my organization was on august . this sounds for me strange in all this matter. [indicating.] here is another interview from fernandez here days later. mr. liebeler. you are referring to a copy of the same newspaper but for the date of september , , on the front page of which---- mr. bringuier. [indicating.] here. "fernando fernandez is in favor of coexistence with the communist regime of castro." that is the title in spanish. mr. liebeler. let me see if i can understand what you are saying. you say that fernandez wrote a letter to lechuga? mr. bringuier. fernandez wrote a letter to lechuga in mexico. mr. liebeler. lechuga is a member of the castro government? mr. bringuier. right. mr. liebeler. he is now ambassador to the united nations? mr. bringuier. in new york; right. mr. liebeler. fernandez is the person who was the castro spy who had infiltrated the training camp in louisiana? mr. bringuier. for the christian democratic movement here in louisiana. mr. liebeler. now the christian democratic movement is--what? pro-castro? mr. bringuier. anti-castro. mr. liebeler. it is an anti-castro organization? mr. bringuier. yes; they were training cubans over here to make a commando action against castro, but they find out that there was a castro spy inside the training camp, and they went back to miami with the people and with him, and they turn him over to the fbi. i think that after that the leader for the christian democratic movement--or that the fbi didn't found nothing, because was not against the law to spy inside an anti-castro organization. it was against the law to spy inside the u.s. government but not inside the anti-castro organization. and my feeling--and this is the question that i am asking myself--in new orleans we are about miles from miami. in miami is where the headquarters of all the anti-castro groups. i could not find any reason for oswald to come to me and offer me his service to train cubans in guerrilla warfare at the same moment when there was a secret anti-castro training camp in new orleans and a castro spy was inside that training camp. that for me is--because, if he was willing to infiltrate one active organization, he will go directly to miami and he will offer his service over there in miami, but not in new orleans where it is not publicly known that there was something going on at that moment. i believe that that was the only time here in new orleans that there was something like that, and it was a coincidence. and there is another coincidence too for me, and that is that when oswald left the city he went to mexico, and the letter from fernandez that was intercepted here was to mexico too, and oswald visit the cuban consulate in mexico, and the fernandez letter was to the cuban ambassador to mexico. for me, that is a big doubt. mr. liebeler. go ahead. mr. bringuier. you see, after the debate, the same night of the debate, i went to the radio station here in new orleans and the local papers and the united press international office, and i gave a press release. if you want a copy, i could give you a copy. i gave a copy to the secret service. the most interesting thing is the four things that i asked to the secret service of new orleans. i think that this is the second one where i said, "write to your congressman asking for a full investigation of mr. lee h. oswald, a confessed marxist" [producing document]. and that was months before the assassination. mr. liebeler. do you have another copy of this? mr. bringuier. i have the original of that. you can have that. mr. liebeler. i have marked a copy of the press release distributed to the various communications media here in new orleans, on august , ---- mr. bringuier. no, august . mr. liebeler. august , ? mr. bringuier. august , the night of the debate. mr. liebeler. i mark it as "exhibit no. " to your deposition, and i have initialed it. would you initial it? [the witness complied.] mr. liebeler. let me go over some of this testimony that you have just given to see if i understand. mr. fernandez wrote to mr. lechuga a letter in which fernandez said that we--meaning the castro people? mr. bringuier. yes. mr. liebeler. must be on guard up until august ? mr. bringuier. august , that is right. mr. liebeler. of ? mr. bringuier. that is right. mr. liebeler. you indicated that oswald had come to your store or offices on august , ? mr. bringuier. that is right. mr. liebeler. oswald came to you offering to assist in the military training of cubans? mr. bringuier. that is right. mr. liebeler. at that time, there was, in fact, a training camp near new orleans---- mr. bringuier. that is right. mr. liebeler. for the training of people for military action against castro? mr. bringuier. right. mr. liebeler. and that was not public knowledge at that time? mr. bringuier. that is right. mr. liebeler. so you are tying this up in your mind by considering the possibility that oswald was, in fact, a castro agent? mr. bringuier. that is right. mr. liebeler. and did know about the existence of this training camp, because mr. fernandez had already himself infiltrated that training camp? mr. bringuier. that is right. mr. liebeler. and that fernandez had told oswald about the existence of this camp and had asked oswald himself to try to infiltrate that camp for your organization? mr. bringuier. excuse me. mr. liebeler. is that correct? mr. bringuier. well, the only thing that i don't believe is that fernandez had told directly to oswald. what i believe is that fernandez had informed some people outside the united states, and these people had informed oswald and had gave to oswald the order to try to infiltrate the cuban group here in new orleans. mr. liebeler. and mr. fernandez was, on this theory, aware of that and was aware of approximately the time oswald would make this attempt, and, therefore, indicated to lechuga that there would be some danger of oswald being discovered as an attempted infiltrator? mr. bringuier. i beg pardon? i don't understand the words. mr. liebeler. as i understand, part of the hypothesis here, the theory, relates to the fact that fernandez said to lechuga, "we must be careful, or we will be in danger,"--up until about august . now does that statement have anything to do with oswald? mr. bringuier. well, what i think is this: he send that letter to lechuga, and on august oswald came to me offering his service to train cubans, all in the same period of time. something that never was happening here in new orleans, that there was a secret anti-castro training camp, and the chairman of the fair play for cuba committee trying to join the cuban group here in new orleans. those are the facts. i don't want to tell something that i am not sure about. i just want to show you that tremendous coincidence or that connection. mr. liebeler. now it doesn't seem likely, does it, that oswald would go around handing out literature in the streets like he did if he was actually attempting to infiltrate the anti-castro movement? mr. bringuier. remember that that was after i turned down his offer and after i told him that i don't have nothing to do with military activities and that here there is nothing, and that i turned down completely him. he didn't went openly to do that before the attempt to infiltrate the training camp; he went openly to do that after he was turned down. mr. liebeler. do you know of any conceivable association between anybody in the pro-castro movement and oswald that could have acted as a source of information to oswald--conducted the orders to him? mr. bringuier. no. mr. liebeler. would you have any way of obtaining information of that sort as a result of your anti-castro activities and contacts? if there were such a person as this, do you think you would be likely to know about it? mr. bringuier. beg your pardon? mr. liebeler. if there were such a person, that is to say, some agent of the castro movement who had been working with oswald, do you think that you would have had access to that information or you would have been likely to find out about it? mr. bringuier. you see, that is a hard question, because here in the city you have a lot of persons. there are some who are pro-castro, there are many who are anti-castro. even among the cubans you could have some castro agents here in the city and you could not have control of everybody. but there is something else: the owner of the havana bar--the havana bar is located in decatur street, just two door or three door from my store--the owner of the havana bar is a cuban, and he and one of the employees over there, gave the information to me after kennedy's assassination--not before--that oswald went to the havana bar one time. he asked for some lemonade. he was with one mexican at that moment, and when oswald was drinking the lemonade, he start to say that, sure, the owner of that place had to be a cuban capitalistic, and that he argue about the price of the lemonade. he was telling that that was too much for a lemonade, and he feel bad at that moment, oswald feel bad at that moment--he had some vomits and he went out to the sidewalk to vomit outside on the sidewalk. these persons here from the havana bar told me that the guy, the mexican, who was with oswald, was the same one that one time the fbi told them that if they will see him, call them immediately because that was a pro-communist. i remember that was between august and august was that period of time. i could not locate that because i start to find out all these things after the kennedy assassination, not before, because before i did not found any connection. they did not told nothing of this before to me. between the th and the th the brother of the owner of the havana bar came to my store asking me to call the fbi, because he already saw one automobile passing by the street with two mexicans, one of them the one who had been with oswald in the bar, and he told me that the fbi, one agent from the fbi, had been in the bar and told them that if they will see those two guy to call them. this person, the brother of the owner of the bar, he gave to me at that moment the number of the plate of the automobile, but he didn't get from what state. i called the fbi, because this person don't know to speak english. that was the reason why he came to me. i talked to the person in the fbi. i explained what was going on, but looked like this person on the telephone didn't know nothing about that matter and he took the--i believe that he took the notes of what i was telling to him, and that was all. mr. liebeler. when did this happen, before the assassination or after? mr. bringuier. i called before the assassination, but i didn't know that that was any connection with oswald, because they didn't told me at the havana bar that one of them was the one that was with oswald in the havana bar, and even more they didn't told me oswald had been in the havana bar. after i learn that oswald was one day over there with one mexican, the brother of the owner told me, "yes. you remember those two mexicans? one of them was the one who was with oswald in the bar." mr. liebeler. now, tell me approximately when you called the fbi about this. mr. bringuier. well, that was between the th of august and the th of august, because that was when the owner of the havana bar was on vacation. the brother was the one who was at the front of the business at that moment, and we figure that the owner of the havana bar went on vacation from august to august and that had to happen in that period of time. mr. liebeler. as i understand it, some time between august and august the brother of the owner of the havana bar told you that he had seen a man that had been formerly identified to him by the fbi, and the fbi had asked this man, the brother of the owner of the bar, to notify them if he saw this man? mr. bringuier. yes. mr. liebeler. and he had seen this man together with another man driving in an automobile somewhere here in new orleans? is that correct? mr. bringuier. but the question is this: the fbi was according to the information that the brother of the owner of the havana bar told me, the fbi was looking for both men, not for one. mr. liebeler. for both of them? mr. bringuier. for both of them, but just one of them was in the havana bar with oswald, not both. mr. liebeler. what is the name of the brother of the owner of the havana bar? mr. bringuier. ruperto peña, and the one who saw oswald in the bar--that was the one who served the lemonade to him--evaristo rodriguez. mr. liebeler. did you report this to the fbi when you talked to them after the assassination? mr. bringuier. after the assassination? mr. liebeler. yes. mr. bringuier. i report this to the secret service. i believe so. [producing document.] i have here a copy of the letter that i send to the headquarters on november , , informing here to the headquarters the information that i gave to the secret service about the man who was working in the pap's supermarket, that he was going to delgado trades school, i believe with the name of charles, and i have here that i gave to the secret service this information during that day. mr. liebeler. may i see that? [document exhibited to counsel.] mr. liebeler. it is in spanish? mr. bringuier. yes. mr. liebeler. off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. liebeler. you have given me a draft of a document entitled "open letter to people of new orleans," which i have marked "exhibit no. " to your deposition taken here in new orleans on april , , and i have initialed it in the lower right hand corner. would you initial it, please? mr. bringuier. [complying.] and you agree to send me back the original? mr. liebeler. yes. i will take this and have a copy made, and i will send the original back to you. i have your address on my copy here of mr. rankin's letter, which is decatur street, new orleans, la. is that correct? mr. bringuier. that is correct. that is my store. you can send the mail to there. mr. liebeler. correct. now "exhibit no. ," as i understand it, is a draft of a letter that you proposed to distribute here in new orleans some time after the debate that you had with oswald on august , . is that correct? mr. bringuier. that is correct. mr. liebeler. it, in fact, was never distributed because you---- mr. bringuier. i went to the city hall, and they informed me--i think the person that informed me--maybe i am wrong--is mr. diboll--i had that name here wrote on the back--and he gave to me the information that it had to be - / by - / and this was not possible to distribute in that size, and i decided not to distribute. mr. liebeler. but you prepared this some time during august in ? mr. bringuier. that is right, that is right. mr. liebeler. that was done prior to the assassination? mr. bringuier. that is right. do you have any information from oswald going to cuba? mr. liebeler. you mean--has it ever appeared that oswald actually went to cuba? not as far as i know. mr. bringuier. well [producing magazine], there is here in this magazine--this is bohemia international--this is printed in venezuela--february , --there is an article by dr. herminio portell-vila. he is a professor of history of cuba, dr. herminio portell-vila, and an old diplomat from cuba. i think he is living in washington, d.c. and he said here [exhibiting page] that in one speech from castro on november , , in the university of havana, castro said--and i quote: "the first time that oswald was in cuba"--and that immediately he cut the speech, he changed and he talked of something else. maybe you have a record of that speech delivered from castro in the university of havana and you could check if castro said that days after the assassination or not. mr. liebeler. and what kind of magazine is this bohemia international? mr. bringuier. bohemia was the biggest weekly magazine in cuba. mr. liebeler. prior to the castro regime? mr. bringuier. that is right. and during the castro regime they were defending castro a lot of time, but in the director, the editor, went into exile, and---- mr. liebeler. and he now publishes this magazine from venezuela? mr. bringuier. that is right. he was publishing that from new york about one year, i believe, sir, and then at a later date moved to venezuela, but that is circulating here inside the united states. mr. liebeler. you have referred to an issue of that magazine of february , , and to an article that begins on page . what is the title of the article? mr. bringuier. disfraz. that is mask, costume. that says "change of---- mr. liebeler. change of costume? mr. bringuier. yes. mr. liebeler. and this is an article about lee oswald and the fair play for cuba committee. is that correct? mr. bringuier. that is correct. mr. liebeler. and the caption under the picture of lee oswald, as it appears on page , reads what in english? would you translate that for us? mr. bringuier. "when castro in his speech of november , , at the university of havana said literally that 'the first time that oswald was in cuba,' he went out of his tongue, that is literally, under the influence of cognac--peralta, that is a brand of cognac--'he told something that is really important.'" mr. liebeler. that is what it says? mr. bringuier. that is what it says here, and if you want to take the name of the person who wrote it---- mr. liebeler. yes. the article was written by---- mr. bringuier. i don't know if you have a copy of---- mr. liebeler. off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. liebeler. do you want to put that on the record, that story you told me just a minute ago? mr. bringuier. last january i went to miami, fla., where i was talking to dr. emilio nunez-portuondo, former cuban ambassador to the united nations, and he told me that just after the assassination of president kennedy he received a request from one of the biggest mexican newspapers asking him for some public declarations of opinion about the assassination. he sent that day a letter with his press release inside, addressed to one friend of him who is living in mexico city and his friend deliver that press release to the mexico city newspaper in mexico. in that release, mr. nunez-portuondo blamed fidel castro as the "intellectual murderer of president kennedy." dr. portuondo told me that the same day that that information appear in the paper, his friend suffer an attempt to be kidnaped. there went about eight men to this man house, and when they were trying to put him inside one automobile, at the same moment pass a reporter--i believe that was from the ap--and when the reporter saw what was going on, he start to ask for help. at that moment the police came and started to question the eight men, and, according to nunez-portuondo, they identified themselves as members of the secret service of the mexican government, and mr. portuondo's friend was beaten so hard that he had to go to a hospital for days with a broken leg, just because he was the one who deliver nunez-portuondo's statement to the mexican newspaper blaming fidel castro for the murder of president kennedy. mr. liebeler. i want to go back briefly to the letter from fernandez to lechuga which you indicated had been intercepted. mr. bringuier. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. what letter is this and who intercepted it? mr. bringuier. well, i believe that that letter was intercepted here in new orleans when fernandez was sending the letter to mexico. i didn't have too much contact with that deal, because that was for another organization, not my organization, and i didn't want to be involved, in that that maybe was against the law. i always try to be out of---- mr. liebeler. you mean this letter was intercepted by some other cuban organization? mr. bringuier. yes; for the same organization who had the training camp. mr. liebeler. that was intercepted while it was in the u.s. mails? mr. bringuier. i think so. i think that he gave that letter to somebody to drop in the mail, and that somebody that was suspicious about him, they opened the letter and they found what the letter was telling. i don't know what they do with the letter. i don't know nothing else. i know about what is said in the paper. i know that they dismantle all the training camp here in new orleans. they went back to miami. i paid the trip for two of them to go back to miami. excuse me. i did not pay the trip, i collect some monies among some cubans, and we paid the trip. i don't want to set something on the record that is not---- mr. liebeler. does it say something about the letter in these newspaper stories that you have referred me to? mr. bringuier. pardon? mr. liebeler. does it refer to the letter in these newspaper stories? mr. bringuier. that is right, is covering the whole history about it [producing newspaper]. mr. liebeler. these newspaper stories are, as we have indicated, in the diario las americas, issues of september , , and september , . do you have copies of these or do you want to keep these? mr. bringuier. i think they are the only ones we have. mr. liebeler. yes. mr. bringuier. i will tell something else to you: this information--they are taking this information from the miami herald. mr. liebeler. you are referring now---- mr. bringuier. that was the one who interview fernando fernandez, the miami herald made an interview to fernando fernandez. i already asked to some person in miami to send me the miami herald, from september to september to try to get all the information directly from the miami herald but at this moment i only have the spanish publication over there. mr. liebeler. do you know where fernandez is now? mr. bringuier. no; i don't know where he is. he was telling in that interview that he was willing to go to cuba, to go back to cuba. i don't know whether he is in cuba now or not. excuse me. did you check any other trip from oswald to mexico previously to the trip weeks before the assassination? because i think that you have to know sure that mr. stuckey, bill stuckey, made another interview to oswald, and he had the tape of that interview. i have one tape of that interview. i think that that interview was made on august , , and at that interview oswald said, answering to one question, that he had been in mexico, and in all the magazines that i am reading they are talking about oswald was born in new orleans, he went to new york, he came back to new orleans, he went to the marines, he went to russia, he came back, he he went to dallas, he came to new orleans back, he went to mexico weeks before the assassination, but i don't read in any newspaper or any magazine talking about some other trip from oswald to mexico, and if you have that tape, in oswald's own voice, he admitted that he had been to mexico before august . mr. liebeler. well, mr. stuckey will be here this afternoon. we will ask him about that. mr. bringuier. thank you. mr. liebeler. going back briefly to this story of mr. peña telling you that he had seen oswald in the havana bar with this other mexican, did the fbi ever talk to mr. peña about this? do you know? mr. bringuier. i don't know. i know that the owner of the havana bar, in my opinion, is a good person, but he says that always when he talk to the fbi in the bar or something like that, that he lose customers, because, you see, to those bars sometime there are people, customers, who don't like to see fbi around there, and he says that always he lose customers when the fbi start to go over there, and sometime he become angry and sometime he don't want to talk about. i am sure that the brother, ruperto--i am sure that he will tell everything that he knows. mr. liebeler. did you form any opinion as to whether the report that ruperto made about oswald being in the bar was an accurate report? mr. bringuier. well, the question is this: was not only ruperto told me that oswald went to havana bar. the one who told me that was evaristo rodriguez, and i never saw evaristo rodriguez telling lies or never--evaristo is quiet person, he is young, married, but he is quiet. he is not an extrovert, that is, not a---- mr. liebeler. he wouldn't be likely to make this story up? mr. bringuier. no; i don't believe so. (at this point, mr. jenner entered the room to obtain photographs, and there ensued an off the record discussion about the photographs.) mr. bringuier. i remember that when somebody--i believe that was the secret service--showed to me the other picture that i tell you, that they were--they had already identified one and they were trying to identify the other one. i am sure that there were two, and no doubt about that. mr. liebeler. in any event, you didn't recognize any of the---- mr. bringuier. no. mr. liebeler. individuals in the pictures that we showed you previously, pizzo exhibits -a and -b, and exhibit no. to your own deposition? mr. bringuier. pardon? mr. liebeler. the only person you recognized in those pictures was lee oswald? mr. bringuier. that is right, that is right, and the guy i showed you, the one from kasuga, the japanese. mr. liebeler. [exhibiting photograph to witness.] now i show you exhibit no. to the affidavit of jesse garner, and i ask you if you recognize the individual in that picture. mr. bringuier. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. and who is that? mr. bringuier. well, the picture look like that is lee harvey oswald. mr. liebeler. and it shows him handing out a leaflet? mr. bringuier. "hands off cuba." mr. liebeler. reading off "hands off cuba," does it not? does that leaflet look similar to the leaflet you saw oswald handing out? mr. bringuier. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. and you recognize that man obviously as oswald, don't you? mr. bringuier. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. i don't think i have any more questions at this point, but if you have anything else that you want to add, why, you can go right ahead and do it. you have done most of the testifying without my help and you have done very well. mr. bringuier. thank you. i don't know if you had already the information that the cuban student directorate headquarters in miami gave to the press on january about jack ruby's second trip to cuba in . mr. liebeler. i am not familiar with it offhand. what is it? mr. bringuier. well, you could check the name and the date of the newspaper. it is the same "diario las americas" from miami, february , , information from the cuban student directorate headquarters in miami telling that jack ruby went to cuba at the end of through mexico, and he was in cuba until the beginning of . after that i talked to them by long-distance telephone, long-distance call, and they informed me that they already have turned over to the fbi all the proof about this trip from ruby going to cuba. mr. liebeler. what is the name of the person that you spoke to in miami? mr. bringuier. the person to whom i spoke in miami, his name is joaquin martinez de pinillos. mr. liebeler. and he indicated that the information concerning ruby's trip had already been given to the fbi? mr. bringuier. to the fbi. that is right. mr. liebeler. can you think of anything else that you think we should know about at this moment? mr. liebeler. off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. liebeler. back on the record. going back briefly to the time at which you and oswald and your other friends were arrested and taken to the police station here in new orleans on august , , were you interviewed at the police station by any agent of the fbi? mr. bringuier. well, there were two plain-clothing agents that identified (themselves) as a member of the fbi, i believe, and they were questioning us on the generalities of oswald and all, and when i was explaining to them and all, they had some kind of confusion sometime because they didn't know if we were communists, and i had to explain to them three or four times that we were not the communists and that oswald was the one that was doing that in favor of castro. mr. liebeler. do you know whether they interviewed oswald? mr. bringuier. i think. i thought that they interviewed oswald, but not in front of me. they were talking to him in front of me, but when they were ready to interview oswald, they moved to other place to interview him. mr. liebeler. you had to point out to them several times that it was oswald who was the castro provocateur, so to say, and not you? is that correct? mr. bringuier. yes, sir; because they were asking to us in one way as if we were communists or pro-castro, and i had to explain to them in three or four different times that we were cubans but we were not pro-castro and that we were the ones in the fight against oswald. mr. liebeler. i have no more questions at this time, mr. bringuier. if you can't think of anything else that you want to add now--can you think of anything else? mr. bringuier. no, sir; i don't. mr. liebeler. i want to thank you very much for spending the time that you have with us and for cooperating with us the way you have. you have been very helpful. on behalf of the commission, i want to thank you very much. testimony of francis l. martello the testimony of francis l. martello was taken on april - , , at the old civil courts building, royal and conti streets, new orleans, la., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. francis l. martello, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: mr. liebeler. my name is wesley j. liebeler. i am a member of the legal staff of the president's commission investigating the assassination of president kennedy. staff members have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the commission pursuant to authority granted to the commission by executive order no. , dated november , and joint resolution of congress no. . i understand that mr. rankin wrote to you last week advising you that we would be in touch with you concerning the taking of your testimony, and that enclosed with the letter were copies of executive order no. , and joint resolution of congress no. , as well as a copy of the rules of procedure adopted by the commission governing the taking of testimony of witnesses. is that correct? mr. martello. that is correct. mr. liebeler. the general area of our inquiry of you, lieutenant martello, relates to the information received by the commission that you interviewed lee harvey oswald some time in august of after he had been arrested by the new orleans police department as a result of his activities in connection with the fair play for cuba committee. before i get into the details of that testimony, however, would you please state your full name for the record? mr. martello. francis l. martello, lieutenant, new orleans police department. mr. liebeler. what is your residence, sir? mr. martello. maple street, new orleans, la. mr. liebeler. how long have you been with the new orleans police department? mr. martello. fifteen years and nine months. mr. liebeler. where were you born? mr. martello. in new orleans. mr. liebeler. and you have resided in new orleans basically all of your life? is that right? mr. martello. yes. mr. liebeler. what assignments have you had with the new orleans police department generally over the period that you have been---- mr. martello. for years i was assigned to patrol, precincts, and districts. for the next years i was assigned as an instructor at the new orleans police academy. for the following years i was the deputy commander of the intelligence division of the new orleans police department, and since that time i have been a platoon commander in the first district police station. mr. liebeler. did there come a time in august of when you heard or heard of or became acquainted with lee harvey oswald? mr. martello. that is correct, sir. he was arrested on canal street on a friday, the friday prior to my interview, and upon coming to work on saturday morning, as a routine matter i checked the arrest records, noted the charge, observed some placards marked as evidence, saw that they were signed by the fair play for cuba [committee], and decided to interview the person who i later found out was lee harvey oswald, the subject who was arrested. mr. liebeler. did you subsequently interview oswald? mr. martello. that is correct, sir. mr. liebeler. was this a part of an official investigation conducted by the new orleans police department? mr. martello. yes, sir; it was. it was to ascertain primarily that all parties, all of us law enforcement agencies, that would be interested would be notified; also to ascertain if the various agencies within our department were notified, and also to obtain any information that would be of value to the department concerning any future demonstrations that this person or persons affiliated with him may perform in the city, so that we would be prepared for such eventualities. mr. liebeler. at the time you interviewed oswald, were you acting as platoon commander of the first district? mr. martello. at that time i was the deputy commander of the first district, which was a position whereby i was to assist the captain in all phases of police work involving the first district area. mr. liebeler. and the first district of the new orleans police department was the district in which this difficulty in which oswald was involved occurred? is that correct? mr. martello. that is correct, sir. mr. liebeler. do you have various headquarters of the new orleans police department broken down by district? mr. martello. yes. mr. liebeler. and you have a station house for the first district and for other districts? mr. martello. yes. mr. liebeler. was oswald confined in the stationhouse for the first district at that time? mr. martello. that is correct, sir. he was confined in the first district, which is located at north rampart street. mr. liebeler. did you make any notes of your interview with oswald at the time you interviewed him? mr. martello. yes, sir; i did. i made a personal history background investigation, which is a common practice and when dealing with any person affiliated with any organization that demonstrates in the city, and also to attempt to ascertain their ideologies and find out in what area they would most likely demonstrate, on what side of the fence, so to speak, as we call it, and see whether or not they were potential agitators or troublemakers. this would assist the department in planning for future demonstrations by these persons if they so demonstrated. mr. liebeler. now after you interviewed oswald and made these notes, it is my understanding that while you did not prepare a memorandum on your interview at that time, you subsequently, that is, after the assassination, on the basis of the notes you did make at the time you interviewed oswald, you prepared a memorandum setting forth the results of your interview with oswald. is that correct? mr. martello. that is correct, sir. mr. liebeler. can you tell us approximately when you did interview him? mr. martello. [referring to notes]. i interviewed oswald at a.m. on saturday, august , . mr. liebeler. that would have been the day following his arrest? is that correct? mr. martello. that is correct, sir. mr. liebeler. august would have been a friday? is that correct? mr. martello. yes; that is correct. the day of his arrest was on friday, august , . mr. liebeler. i also understand that you provided a copy of the memorandum that you did prepare to the fbi? is that correct? mr. martello. originally--wait--originally i was contacted by the u.s. secret service on the morning after the assassination of the president at approximately o'clock in the morning, and i was interviewed concerning what information i had developed at the time of the interview. mr. liebeler. do you remember which agent of the secret service did talk to you? mr. martello. yes; i remember something like querie. no; i believe it was mr. vial, v-i-a-l, who originally spoke to me, and since that time there were numerous phone calls to my home and at work with various members of the u.s. secret service who spoke to me concerning the interview that i had with harvey oswald. mr. liebeler. did you also turn over to the secret service or to the fbi the pamphlets and other materials that had been found in oswald's possession at the time of his arrest? mr. martello. that is correct, sir. i turned that information over to the secret service. mr. liebeler. then you subsequently prepared the memorandum to which we have already referred, and you provided a copy of that memorandum to the secret service or to the fbi? is that correct? mr. martello. that is correct, sir. mr. liebeler. [exhibiting document to witness.] i want to show you a copy of your memorandum, and i will ask you if you yourself have a copy of your memorandum with you. mr. martello. no, sir. mr. liebeler. i show you a copy of your memorandum and ask you to examine it and tell me whether or not that is a copy of your memorandum. i show you a copy in the form of a report of the federal bureau of investigation, and i call your attention to the fact that it is the report of special agent john l. quigley, which indicates that on november , , agent quigley did interview you, and he set forth in the memorandum, starting at the bottom of page , what purports to be the text of the memorandum which you prepared concerning your interview of oswald. would you examine that portion of your report and tell me whether or not that is or appears to you to be a correct copy of the memorandum that you prepared? mr. martello. yes; it is. mr. liebeler. at this point we will physically incorporate into the record the memorandum of lieutenant martello, the report to which lieutenant martello and i have been referring. i provide the reporter with a copy for that purpose. (the report referred to by counsel is here made part of the record:) "about a.m. on saturday, august , , i observed a placard and handbills which had been placed into evidence against an accused person. this placard contained information concerning the fair play for cuba committee. i determined that a subject by the name of lee harvey oswald was arrested on friday, august , when he was passing out handbills on canal street and was carrying this placard about his person. "prior to being assigned to the first district, i had worked with the intelligence unit for two years and since i was generally familiar with various groups and organizations that demonstrate or picket in the city, i decided i would question this individual to see if i could develop any information which would be of value and to ascertain if all interested parties had been notified. "i requested the doorman to bring lee harvey oswald into the interview room. i then took the material which was to be used as evidence into this room. at the same time i reviewed the arrest record on oswald and determined that while he was distributing fair play for cuba literature on the street he became involved in a disturbance with celso macario hernandez, carlos jose bringuier and miguel mariano cruz. "when oswald was brought into the office, i introduced myself to him as lieutenant francis l. martello and i was in uniform at the time. "i asked oswald if he had any identification papers. at this time oswald produced his wallet. upon my request, he removed the papers and i examined them. he had in his wallet a number of miscellaneous papers, cards and identification items. the only ones that i felt were of any significance were the following, which i made note of: " . social security card bearing # - - in the name of lee harvey oswald. " . selective service draft card in the name of lee harvey oswald bearing # - - - , classification-- a. (i do not know what draft board was registered with.) " . card bearing name lee harvey oswald reflecting he was a member of the fair play for cuba committee; address listed as broadway, new york , new york; telephone #oregon - , headquarters for fair play for cuba committee. card was signed by v. t. lee, executive secretary; card issued / / . " . card for the new orleans chapter of the fair play for cuba committee in name of lee harvey oswald signed by a. j. hidell, chapter president, issued june , . "the notes of my interview reflect that oswald gave his date of birth as october , at new orleans, louisiana; that he served three years in the u.s. marine corps and stated he was honorably discharged on july , from santa ana, california. his wife's name was marino _prossa_, a white female, age . oswald stated he had one daughter, june lee oswald, white female, months of age, and he had been residing at magazine street with his wife and daughter for the past four months. oswald said that since he resided at mercedes street in fort worth, texas and had also lived in arlington, texas. oswald said his mother's name was margaret oswald, his father, robert lee oswald, being deceased. he told me he had two brothers, robert oswald, living in fort worth, texas, and john oswald, arlington, texas. he also stated he lived somewhere on exchange place in new orleans but could not remember the address, and that he had attended beauregard junior high school and warren easton high school, both in new orleans, and that he attended riegeala west elementary school in fort worth, texas. oswald told me he had moved to new orleans from fort worth about four months ago. "when questioned about the fair play for cuba committee, oswald stated that he had been a member for three months. i asked how he had become affiliated with the fair play for cuba committee and he stated he became interested in that committee in los angeles, california in while in the u.s. marine corps. the facts as to just how he first became interested in the fair play for cuba committee while in the marine corps are vague, however i recall that he said he had obtained some fair play for cuba committee literature and had gotten into some difficulty in the marine corps for having this literature. "oswald was asked how many members of the fair play for cuba committee were in the new orleans chapter and he stated there were . i asked him to identify the members of the fair play for cuba committee in new orleans and he refused to give names of the members or any identifying data regarding them. oswald was asked why he refused and he said that this was a minority group holding unpopular views at this time and it would not be beneficial to them if he gave their names. oswald was asked approximately how many people attended meetings of the new orleans chapter of the fair play for cuba committee and he said approximately five attended the meetings, which were held once a month. he was asked where and he said at various places in the city. he was asked specifically at what addresses or locations were the meetings held and stated that the meetings were held on pine street. he was asked at whose residence the meetings were held and he refused to give any further information. it should be noted at this time during prior investigation conducted, while i was a member of the intelligence unit, information was developed that fair play for cuba committee literature was found in the block of pine street, new orleans, which was near the residence of dr. leonard reissman, a professor at tulane university. this investigation was conducted by me. "as i remember, dr. reissman was reported to be a member of the new orleans council of peaceful alternatives which is a 'ban the bomb' group recently established in the city and had conducted meetings and two or three demonstrations in the city. knowing that dr. reissman was reportedly a member of the new orleans council of peaceful alternatives i thought there might be a tie between this organization and the fair play for cuba committee. "when oswald stated that meetings of the fair play for cuba committee had been held on pine street, the name of dr. reissman came to mind. i asked oswald if he knew dr. reissman or if he held meetings at dr. reissman's house. oswald did not give me a direct answer to this question, however i gathered from the expression on his face and what appeared to be an immediate nervous reaction that there was possibly a connection between dr. reissman and oswald; this, however, is purely an assumption on my own part and i have nothing on which to base this. i also asked oswald if he knew a dr. forrest e. la violette, a professor at tulane university. i asked him this question because i remembered that la violette allegedly had possession of fair play for cuba literature during the year . i cannot remember any further details about this nor do i have any information that he is or was connected with the fair play for cuba committee in new orleans. oswald became very evasive in his answers and would not divulge any information concerning the fair play for cuba committee, where the group met, or the identities of the members. "oswald was then asked what religion he practiced and he stated he was a lutheran and also that he was presently unemployed but had worked at william b. reily coffee company, new orleans, about three months, working on heavy machinery and earned $ per week. he worked from may to july , at that company. he further stated that he had worked for jax brewery approximately - / months ago. "i asked him again about the members of the fair play for cuba committee in new orleans and why the information was such a big secret; that if had nothing to hide, he would give me the information. oswald said one of the members of the fair play for cuba committee in new orleans was named 'john' and that this individual went to tulane university. he refused to give any more information concerning the fair play for cuba committee in new orleans. "since he did not appear to be particularly receptive at this time, the interview was concluded and he was returned to the cell block. prior to entering the cell block, oswald was again allowed to use the telephone. "several hours later after oswald was interviewed by a special agent of the federal bureau of investigation, a white female came to the station and identified herself as mrs. _murat_, who stated she was a relative of oswald and lived on france street. she stated she wanted to know the charge against oswald and i told her, explaining to her the procedure whereby oswald could be released. she became very reluctant to become involved in the release of oswald as she stated since he was involved with the fair play for cuba committee, she did not want to get mixed up with it in any way. i spoke to her concerning oswald's background and she stated oswald had a hard time coming up insofar as his family life was concerned and she felt that this had a direct bearing on his actions and that he had gone to russia and stayed over there for a few years; he married while in russia and came back to the united states with his wife. she stated oswald did not allow anything but russian to be spoken in his home. she was asked why he did not allow english to be spoken and she related she had spoken to oswald's wife about this and she said this was his desire. she further stated she had asked oswald's wife if she liked america and the wife answered 'yes i do' but said her husband (oswald) did not like america. i did not question her any further. "after mrs. _murat_ left, i decided to further question oswald and had him again brought out of the cell to me. i then asked if he had given me all of the needed information about his background and he said he had. i asked him if he lived in russia and he stated that somebody had told me this. he then admitted he had lived in russia for - / years, going there by 'slow boat to europe.' i asked him how he got over there and he related he left fort worth, texas, stayed in new orleans a few days and then took the 'slow boat to europe.' he took a tour of europe and wound up in russia. he lived in moscow and minsk, russia and told me he lived there from october, to july, . i asked him if his wife was russian and he said yes. he said her true name was marino _prossa_ and that it was an abbreviation of her name, marino prossakaya; he said she was an alien m- . i then asked him if he was a communist and he said he was not. i asked him if he was a socialist and he said 'guilty.' we then spoke at length concerning the philosophies of communism, socialism and america. he said he was in full accord with the book, das kapital, which book was written by karl marx. i know that this book condemns the american way of government in entirety. i asked him if he thought that the communist way of life was better than the american way of life and he replied there was not true communism in russia. he said that marx was a socialist and although communism is attributed to marx, that marx was not a communist but a socialist. he stated this was the reason he did not consider himself to be a communist. i asked him what his opinion was of the form of communism in russia since he had lived there for two years and he replied 'it stunk.' he said they have 'fat stinking politicians over there just like we have over here' and that they do not follow the great concepts of karl marx, that the leaders have everything and the people are still poor and depressed. i asked oswald why he would not allow members of his family to learn english as this would be required to educate his children and communicate with people. he stated the reason why he did this was because he hated america and he did not want them to become 'americanized' and that his plans were to go back to russia. he stated he had already applied to the state department for a visa to go back by using the excuse that his wife was a russian. i asked him what he thought about president john f. kennedy and nikita khrushchev. he said he thought they got along very well together. i then asked him if he had to place allegiance or make a decision between russia or america, which he would choose and he said 'i would place my allegiance at the foot of democracy.' i then asked him if he would consider himself a 'student of the world,' explaining that i meant by this a person who attempts to find a utopia on earth and that he said he could be classified as such an individual. i asked him if he had any religious convictions and whether he believed in god since karl marx did not believe in god. i was trying to find out if he was an atheist. his answer to me was that he was christened as a lutheran but that he has not followed any religion since youth. i asked him if he was an agnostic and he said he could be classified 'as a marxist in his beliefs.' i then spoke to him about the fair play for cuba committee again and asked him if he knew that castro had admitted that he was a marxist-leninist and he said he did. he was then asked if he truly believed castro was really interested in the welfare of the cuban people and he replied that he was not going to discuss the merits and demerits of castro but was primarily concerned with the poor people of cuba and that if this country would have good relations with the poor people of cuba and quit worrying about castro, that was his main concern; he stated this was the reason he was interested in the fair play for cuba committee. "oswald was then returned to the cell block. "i then took my notes, along with several copies of the literature of oswald, and placed them in a file folder, in the file cabinet. "the day after the assassination of president john f. kennedy, mr. adrian g. vial, u.s. secret service, who had spoken to me earlier at about a.m. saturday morning, november , , wherein he had obtained information regarding my interview with oswald, came to the first district station on saturday, november , at about p.m. and told me the secret service was conducting an official investigation regarding the assassination of the president of the united states. at the outset of the interview i got out the original file folder on lee harvey oswald, opened it and gave mr. vial all of the literature i had obtained from oswald, which consisted of some pamphlets, leaflets and booklets put out by the fair play for cuba committee headquarters. upon going through these pamphlets i discovered a photograph of lee harvey oswald which appeared to be a passport photograph, and a small piece of white paper containing handwritten notes on same. this photograph and paper had inadvertently become misplaced with the literature during the interview i had with oswald. this piece of paper, which was folded over twice and was about " by " in size, contained some english writing and some writing which appeared to me to be in a foreign language which i could not identify. before i gave this paper to mr. vial, i made a copy of the information, which is as follows: [see commission exhibit no. .] mr. liebeler. did you form an opinion during the time that you interviewed oswald as to whether or not he was telling you the truth about the matters that you questioned him about and reported in your memorandum? mr. martello. he did give me the impression that--in the majority of the interview--that it was the truth. mr. liebeler. now specifically--off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. liebeler. in your report you indicated that oswald told you that he had become interested in the fair play for cuba committee in los angeles, calif., in while in the u.s. marine corps. is that correct? mr. martello. that is correct, sir. mr. liebeler. did you have the feeling that he was telling you the truth about that particular aspect of the interview, or do you have any recollection as to that specific aspect of it? mr. martello. i wouldn't know exactly, to my recollection, whether or not he was being truthful in that particular area. mr. liebeler. in the next paragraph--go ahead--are you through? mr. martello. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. in the next paragraph of your report, you indicate that oswald told you that there were about members of the fair play for cuba committee here in new orleans. did you have any reason to question that statement? mr. martello. i didn't believe it was a true statement because of the fact that there was very little activity, to my knowledge, of the fair play for cuba committee in the city of new orleans, and since it was such a new organization, or which appeared to me to be a new organization in the city, it didn't seem likely there would be members in the community. mr. liebeler. did you ever become aware of the existence of any other member of the group in new orleans---- mr. martello. no, sir. mr. liebeler. other than oswald? mr. martello. no; other than information that had been developed that there were some possible connections. however, there was no basis in fact that any other person, to my knowledge, was a member of the fair play for cuba committee. this particular man, oswald, was the first person that i have come in contact with that i knew for a fact stated he was a member of the fair play for cuba committee. mr. liebeler. he is not only the first person you came in contact with who indicated he was a member of the fair play for cuba committee, but he is the only one that you ever saw or heard of in the city of new orleans? is that correct? mr. martello. that is correct. mr. liebeler. after this affair with oswald, as far as you know, there was no other activity by the fair play for cuba committee in new orleans? is that correct? mr. martello. the only other activity that i could recall was a passing out of leaflets. again this was by oswald, and that was the only other time i have known of any activities by this group. mr. liebeler. you know that oswald appeared on a radio program broadcast over wdsu and appeared briefly on a television broadcast over the same station in connection with his activities? mr. martello. i have read an account in the local newspaper to that effect. however, i did not hear the radio broadcast or see the tv program. mr. liebeler. was that account in the paper before or after the assassination? do you remember? mr. martello. that was before the assassination. mr. liebeler. your report refers to a professor at tulane university by the name of dr. leonard reissman. did the department, to your knowledge, conduct any investigation of dr. reissman in an attempt to associate him with the fair play for cuba committee or to determine whether or not he was associated with the fair play for cuba committee here in new orleans? mr. martello. not to my knowledge, sir. mr. liebeler. do you have any personal knowledge of the background of dr. reissman, other than as set forth in your memorandum? mr. martello. no, sir. mr. liebeler. do you know what he teaches at tulane university? mr. martello. no, sir; i do not. mr. liebeler. further on in your report there is a reference to another professor at tulane by the name of la violette, and you indicate on that you had some recollection that this professor allegedly had possession of fair play for cuba literature in . do you remember any of the details of that? mr. martello. no, sir; i do not. mr. liebeler. was there any investigation conducted of this particular professor in an attempt to determine whether he was associated with oswald in any way? mr. martello. no, sir; there was not. mr. liebeler. did oswald indicate to you in any way that he himself knew either of these two professors or any other professor at tulane university, or had ever had anything to do with them or with other professors? mr. martello. he did not indicate by name, but there was a meeting place on pine street, the block of pine street in new orleans, where there were meetings held. mr. liebeler. this is meetings of the fair play for cuba committee? mr. martello. no, sir. mr. liebeler. what kind of meetings? mr. martello. just meetings by other groups. there was no indication of any names, but i had asked him if he held his meetings on pine street, and he reflected--only in gesture--that there was some, or appeared to be some, connection between the two, but it is mere speculation upon my part. mr. liebeler. he didn't indicate one way or the other, directly or indirectly, that this was the case? mr. martello. no, sir. mr. liebeler. from your memorandum it appears that oswald told you that he had worked for the jax brewery about - / months prior to the time of the interview. did you make any check with the jax brewing co. to determine whether or not this was a true statement? mr. martello. no, sir; i did not. mr. liebeler. you are unable to state at this time whether it is true or false that oswald worked at the jax brewery? mr. martello. that is correct, sir. i am unable to state that as a fact. mr. liebeler. you also indicate that you terminated your interview with oswald, and he was permitted to use the telephone, apparently as a result of which a mrs. murat--spelled m-u-r-a-t in the memorandum, but i believe it is correctly spelled m-u-r-r-e-t---- mr. martello. that is right. mr. liebeler. appeared at the station. did you personally talk to this woman who came to the station? mr. martello. that is correct, sir; i did. mr. liebeler. and you set forth in your memorandum the statements made by mrs. murret and the position that she took with regard to this whole thing, and that is a correct summary of the events that occurred with regard to mrs. murret, is it not? mr. martello. that is correct. mr. liebeler. did you form any impression of this woman's feelings about oswald or her attitude toward this whole event? mr. martello. yes, sir; i did. she gave me the impression that she wanted to help him and she didn't want to become involved, due to the affiliation, as he stated he was a member of the fair play for cuba, and she was leery on becoming involved in obtaining his release. i explained to her the release procedure whereby, if she desired to assist him in being released from jail by parole or bond and she didn't want to become involved in the release procedure--but she did give me the impression that she was interested in him, as a relative, i imagine. mr. liebeler. do you know whether or not she subsequently did involve herself in oswald's release? mr. martello. no, sir; i did not know if she did become involved in his release. i don't think she did, because during the second interview with lee harvey oswald i allowed him to use the telephone in the captain's office where he called someone, some male, white male, or some male. i don't know who he spoke to, but obviously his attempt to get any assistance from mrs. murret was unsuccessful. mr. liebeler. mrs. murret also told you that oswald had at one time been in the soviet union, did she not? mr. martello. that is correct, sir. mr. liebeler. and then you subsequently questioned oswald concerning this matter, did you? mr. martello. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. and in your memorandum you indicate that you had asked oswald what his opinion was of the form of communism in russia, and he replied that it stunk? is that correct? mr. martello. that is correct, sir. mr. liebeler. that did in fact occur? is that right? mr. martello. that is correct, sir. mr. liebeler. did oswald indicate to you any other attitudes that he had toward the soviet union, or did he particularize or go into more detail as to why he was dissatisfied with his stay in the soviet union? mr. martello. other than what i have in the memorandum where he stated that the people were still poor and depressed and that the present form of communism was not what it should be, the ideals, as he stated, were not in fact the true conditions in russia. mr. liebeler. now your memorandum also indicates that you asked oswald why he would not permit members of his family to learn the english language, and the memorandum indicates that oswald said the reason why he did not so permit them was because he hated america and he did not want his family to become americanized since he planned to go back to russia. is that correct? mr. martello. that is correct, sir. mr. liebeler. and oswald did tell you that, did he not? mr. martello. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. we have down here a statement, on the one hand, that as far as oswald is concerned the system in russia, to use his word, "stunk," and, on the other hand, he said that he hated america and had indicated a desire to return to russia. do you remember how he presented these ideas, and did he seem to be equally convinced as to both these propositions, or did he display any emotion concerning either one of these propositions, or just what was his general attitude? mr. martello. his general attitude was, he stated that he believed in a socialistic form of government and that in choosing between america and russia, he gave me the impression that he would choose the lesser of the two evils, in his opinion. mr. liebeler. did he indicate which, in his opinion, was the lesser of the two evils? mr. martello. from the way he spoke, the impression i received, it appeared to me that he felt that russia was the lesser of the two evils. mr. liebeler. did he express this idea with great forcefulness, or just sort of a "pox on both your houses" fashion, that really it was just too ridiculous, and that sort of thing? mr. martello. with a nonchalant attitude. he was a very cool speaker. i don't know too much of his formal education. i read an account in the newspaper about it, but from the way he spoke, it was quite obvious that he had done a heck of a lot of reading in his lifetime, and his approach was academic, more or less theories but with no aggressiveness or emotional outbursts in any way, shape, or form. it was just a very calm conversation we had, and there was no emotion involved whatsoever. mr. liebeler. did he show any hesitancy about expressing these ideas to you as a member of the police department? mr. martello. none whatsoever, sir. mr. liebeler. he didn't seem to be bothered by you or afraid of you, or anything like that? mr. martello. no, sir; none whatsoever. i generally try to establish a rapport with any group that would demonstrate in the city, which was one of the objectives i had with oswald. if in the future he would demonstrate, why, i could speak to him. it is a lot easier when you know somebody than when you don't, and they may comply with a request rather than the ultimates of the law. mr. liebeler. now, your memorandum also indicates that you asked oswald what he thought about president kennedy and premier khrushchev, and the memorandum also indicates that oswald said that he thought they got along very well together. what was his attitude when he made that remark? tell us as much as you can remember of the background of that aspect of your conversation. mr. martello. the reason i asked that question was again to get his feelings on where his loyalty would rest between america and russia, and it was just another way of asking the same question. he gave me the impression that he seemed to favor president kennedy more than he did khrushchev in his statement. this is unusual, and i couldn't quite understand his reason for this reaction, as all of his thoughts seemed to go into the direction of the socialist or russian way of life, but he showed in his manner of speaking that he liked the president, the impression i got, or, if he didn't like him, of the two he disliked, he disliked the president the least. he is a very peculiar type of an individual, which is typical of quite a few of the many demonstrators that i have handled during the period of years while in the intelligence division. they seemed to be trying to find themselves or something. i am not expert in the field or anything, not trying to go out of my bounds, but quite a few of them, after lengthy interviews you find that they have some peculiarities about their thinking that does not follow logically with their movements or their action. mr. liebeler. and this attitude that oswald demonstrated toward the president is an example of that sort of thing? is that correct? mr. martello. that is correct, sir. mr. liebeler. it didn't seem to fit in with the rest of his statements? mr. martello. didn't seem to fit in. mr. liebeler. do you remember any more specifically or in any more detail just what the conversation concerning kennedy was? mr. martello. it would only be vaguely at this time, but it was in the general areas of leadership of the president in comparison to the leadership of khrushchev, how each was leading the various countries, and again an analogy or comparison of the two forms of government, which one he thought was running it the best, but we didn't go into this at any great length. mr. liebeler. well, your recollection is quite clear that, in spite of the fact that oswald demonstrated a general inclination to favor the soviet union and its institutions, he did in spite of that indicate a preference for president kennedy as opposed to premier khrushchev? mr. martello. that is correct, sir. mr. liebeler. and that he in no way demonstrated any animosity or ill feelings toward president kennedy? mr. martello. no, sir; he did not. at no time during the interview with oswald did he demonstrate any type of aggressiveness in any way, shape, or form, other than his demonstration on canal street with the picket sign. mr. liebeler. did you consider whether oswald was prone to violence or was a violent kind of person? mr. martello. no, sir; i did not, for the simple reason that when he had made the friendship of the people with the anti-castro groups in the city and offered them assistance, and when they saw him on canal street with pro-castro signs they became insulting and abusive to the point of becoming violent toward him, and he never reacted to the action that was being directed toward him. mr. liebeler. these anti-castro characters attempted to provoke oswald into some kind of physical conflict, did they not, as a matter of fact? mr. martello. that is correct, sir. mr. liebeler. and he didn't respond? mr. martello. that is correct, sir. mr. liebeler. did you eventually learn what became of this case, how it was disposed of in court? mr. martello. yes, sir; the next day, the following monday. the following monday i went to court, municipal court, and i heard the evidence in the case. he was charged--all of them were charged with creating a scene, which is a typical municipal charge used in minor disturbances. it expedites everything much nicer, and there was no--there wasn't any detailed information given other than what he was charged with. the judge found him guilty and gave him, i believe, $ or days, or something like that. mr. liebeler. do you remember whether oswald pleaded guilty or not guilty? mr. martello. i do not remember, sir. mr. liebeler. the cubans who were involved in it were released without any fine or any punishment, were they not? mr. martello. i do not remember, sir. mr. liebeler. you didn't have any occasion to discuss this thing with oswald after the case had been disposed of? mr. martello. no, sir. that was all there was to it. mr. liebeler. is there any other reason that you didn't regard oswald as a violent kind of person, other than the one that you mentioned concerning his failure to respond to the provocation of the cubans? mr. martello. he did not impress me at the time i interviewed him as a violent person by any of the responses to questions, by observing his physical makeup. not in any way, shape, or form did he appear to me as being violent in any way. he displayed very little emotion and was completely unconcerned and aloof. off the record? mr. liebeler. off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. liebeler. when you subsequently heard that oswald had been arrested in connection with the assassination, were you surprised? mr. martello. yes, sir; i was, i was very much surprised. mr. liebeler. would you tell us---- mr. martello. because he did not give me the impression of being a violent individual. he was a very passive type of an individual. mr. liebeler. you have had experience with other pickets here in new orleans on several questions, and have you run into people who demonstrated a passivity in the face of provocation before? mr. martello. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. did oswald appear to be this kind of person? mr. martello. yes, sir; he did, with one extension of the incident with the cubans. although he was passive in his demonstration, he seemed to have set them up, so to speak, to create an incident, but when the incident occurred he remained absolutely peaceful and gentle. mr. liebeler. you just didn't think at the time you heard that oswald had been arrested in connection with the assassination that he would have been capable of performing that act? or did you have an opinion on that question? mr. martello. well, as far as being capable of an act, i guess everybody is capable of an act, but as far as ever dreaming or thinking that oswald would do what it is alleged that he has done, i would bet my head on a chopping block that he wouldn't do it. mr. liebeler. you just wouldn't have been able to predict that this guy would have done something like that? mr. martello. that is right. mr. liebeler. and such an act would appear to you to be entirely inconsistent with the attitude demonstrated to you while you knew him here in new orleans? is that correct? mr. martello. absolutely correct, sir. mr. liebeler. you indicate in your memorandum that you went through your notes and the other materials that were collected at the time oswald was arrested, and you found a photograph of oswald and a small piece of white paper containing certain handwritten notes, which is attached to the report that we have. there is a photostatic copy of a sheet of paper with handwritten notes, and i ask you whether or not that is a photostatic copy of the paper that you found in the material you have just described? mr. martello. yes; it is. mr. liebeler. and the original of this was taken from oswald at the time of his arrest? is that correct? mr. martello. it wasn't actually taken from him. due to the amount of material he had in his possession, and upon oswald taking various credentials and identification cards out, it was left--it was inadvertently picked up with the literature, and i put it in a file folder and it remained there. i thought no more of it. he had already been interviewed by the intelligence division of our department. it was just by coincidence that i kept the notes. normally i would have discarded them. mr. liebeler. you turned the original of the paper that was kept over to the federal bureau of investigation, did you not? mr. martello. no, sir; i turned the original paper over to the united states secret service along with the pamphlets, all of the pamphlets. mr. liebeler. as far as you know, the secret service still has that material? mr. martello. that is correct, sir. mr. liebeler. now did you become involved in any other questioning of oswald or investigation of oswald, or did you become involved in anything else having anything to do with oswald back in august of other than what we have already talked about? mr. martello. no, sir; i did not see him but one more time, and that was when he went to court, and that was the last time i saw him. the only times i spoke to him was the times that we had mentioned during the interview. mr. liebeler. were you present at any time when oswald may have been interviewed by other officers or personnel of the police department? mr. martello. no, sir; i was not. i understand that he was interviewed at the time of his arrest by members of the intelligence division of the new orleans police department. mr. liebeler. did you interview any of the cubans that were arrested at the same time oswald was arrested? mr. martello. no, sir; i did not. i believe the cubans were paroled. that is it, they were paroled. mr. liebeler. after the assassination, did the new orleans police department, to your knowledge, engage in any investigation concerning oswald or his prior activities in new orleans? mr. martello. not to my knowledge, sir. they may have, but at that time i was in the first district, assigned to the first district, and i wouldn't know if they had conducted any further investigations. mr. liebeler. can you think of anything that you think the commission ought to know about that is within your knowledge, that i haven't asked you about or we haven't covered so far? if you can i would like to have you indicate it so that we could have the benefit of it. mr. martello. i think you did a very good job on me. i don't think there are any questions that haven't been answered. mr. liebeler. in view of that, i have no other questions at this point. i do want to thank you, lieutenant martello, for the cooperation you have shown to us, and on behalf of the commission i want to thank you very sincerely for your coming here and giving the testimony that you have given. thank you very much. mr. martello. thank you, sir. testimony of charles hall steele, jr. the testimony of charles hall steele, jr., was taken on april , , at the old civil courts building, royal and conti streets, new orleans, la., by mr. albert e. jenner, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. charles hall steele, jr., madrid street, new orleans, la., after first being duly sworn, testified as follows: mr. jenner. you are charles hall steele, jr., is that right? mr. steele. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and your address is madrid street here in new orleans? mr. steele. that's right. mr. jenner. and is that spelled s-t-e-e-l-e? mr. steele. yes. mr. jenner. i am albert e. jenner, jr., attorney on the legal staff on the president's commission, investigating the facts and circumstances surrounding the assassination last november of president john fitzgerald kennedy. did you receive a letter from mr. rankin, general counsel for the commission? mr. steele. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and enclosed with that letter were senate joint resolution , which authorized the creation of the commission to investigate the assassination of the late president; is that right? mr. steele. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and the executive order no. of president lyndon b. johnson, appointing that commission and fixing its powers and duties. that was enclosed also in the letter? mr. steele. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and a copy of the rules and regulations under which we take testimony, both before the commission and also by way of deposition, such as in this instance. you received that also? mr. steele. yes. mr. jenner. now, you have appeared here voluntarily today, is that right? mr. steele. yes, sir. mr. jenner. from those papers that you received, did you become aware of the purpose for the existence of the president's commission, that it is enjoined by legislation to investigate the circumstances and all the facts relating to the assassination of president john fitzgerald kennedy on the d of november , and the subsequent death and murder of lee harvey oswald on the th of november ? mr. steele. yes, sir. mr. jenner. we of the legal staff are questioning various people, sometimes before the commission and sometimes in private depositions, such as this one, who in the ordinary course of their lifetime touched the life of lee harvey oswald, or someone in his family, the facts of which might help the commission in its ultimate determination of this tragedy, and we understand that you are one of those who came into contact with lee harvey oswald during the time he lived in new orleans; is that right? mr. steele. yes, sir. mr. jenner. first, are you a native born american? mr. steele. yes, sir. mr. jenner. here in new orleans? mr. steele. in new orleans; yes. mr. jenner. and your father likewise is a native born american, is that right? mr. steele. yes, sir. mr. jenner. in louisiana? mr. steele. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and your mother? mr. steele. from new orleans, la. mr. jenner. how old are you? mr. steele. twenty. mr. jenner. are you a student? mr. steele. well, that's hard to say. i haven't graduated or got my diploma yet from delgado. however, i finished a course up there, and they let me out. mr. jenner. delgado--is that a trade school? mr. steele. yes, sir. mr. jenner. are you working part time or what? mr. steele. i was working part time and going to school. i was working after school, and then after they let me out i started to work full time. however, right now, i am waiting to go into the service. mr. jenner. do you know a young lady by the name of charlene stouff? mr. steele. yes. mr. jenner. is she a friend of yours? mr. steele. yes. mr. jenner. do you recall an occasion when you accompanied her to the employment service office? mr. steele. yes, sir. mr. jenner. when was that? mr. steele. as to the date i couldn't say, but that's the date they took films of me passing out leaflets. mr. jenner. on canal street? mr. steele. well, not on canal street; it was in front of the trade mart building. mr. jenner. what street is the trade mart building on? mr. steele. well, i don't know the street offhand. i know where it is. i have been there many times for different things; it's down the street from canal street, just one block. mr. jenner. you say you have been there many times? mr. steele. yes; buying wholesale stuff for my father, and all. mr. jenner. how did you become involved in that passing out literature business? mr. steele. well, she had to take this test for the school board building. mr. jenner. she did? mr. steele. yes. mr. jenner. you are talking about charlene stouff? mr. steele. that's right. mr. jenner. for what purpose did she have to take this test? mr. steele. applying for a job. mr. jenner. what kind of a job? mr. steele. secretary of some sort; i don't know exactly what job that was to be. mr. jenner. and you accompanied her? mr. steele. well, she asked me if i would drive her down there, and i drove her down. mr. jenner. was this the u.s. employment service? mr. steele. i couldn't say. it's the one on canal street, approximately in the block, i think. mr. jenner. all right, proceed; tell me all about it, what happened, and everything. mr. steele. to tell you the truth, i never thought any more about it until mr. rice came to see me, but i was just sitting around there and had about an hour to kill more or less. i was there a good while waiting for her. mr. jenner. you were waiting for her to take the test? mr. steele. yes, sir. mr. jenner. all right, what happened? mr. steele. this gentleman came up and introduced himself to me. mr. jenner. what did he look like? mr. steele. it was oswald, he turned out to be. he introduced himself and asked me if i would like to make a couple of dollars. mr. jenner. did he introduce himself as lee harvey oswald? mr. steele. well, i couldn't tell you that. i presume he did, but that's only presumption on my part. i don't remember names too well; just faces, and that's about all, so then after he asked me if i would like to make some money, i asked him, "doing what?" and he said, "passing out these leaflets in front of the trade mart building," and i said, "about how long will it take?" and he said, "about or minutes at the most." i figured $ for minutes, and i am going on vacation next week, that could come in handy, and so i said, "all right," that i would go over there and do it, and so in the meantime charlene had come back. she had finished her test, and she had to go back to the school board building to see some guy that she saw before about the job, so i brought her over to that gentleman, and then i went back over to the trade mart building, where he and another fellow came up, and he handed me these leaflets, so i just started passing them out. mr. jenner. did you look at them before you started passing them out? mr. steele. no; i didn't look at them. i have walked down canal street myself a lot of times, and somebody has handed me a leaflet like that, and i just take it, and most of the time i just throw it in the nearest trash can; i don't read them. mr. jenner. did you have a sign, or was anybody carrying a sign there? mr. steele. no; but these pictures that mr. rice showed me, the fbi agent, i saw myself on those, and there was a gentleman in the rear who was also passing out leaflets, and i never saw him at the time i was there, but he's in the pictures. mr. jenner. what did he look like, this man who was there also passing out leaflets? mr. steele. well, i shouldn't say this, i guess, but he was sort of cuban looking, like that. mr. jenner. olive skinned, do you mean? mr. steele. yes; olive skinned, but he was back in the rear, passing out leaflets, and i never did even see him. mr. jenner. and this man, oswald, who asked you to pass out the leaflets for or minutes, was he also passing out the leaflets at the same time? mr. steele. i never noticed. mr. jenner. did you notice whether he was there, or whether he remained there after he gave you these leaflets? mr. steele. oh, he was there. in fact, he had leaflets in his hand. mr. jenner. do you think he was passing them out? mr. steele. i guess so, but, i mean, to say that he was just standing there passing them out, i didn't pay any attention to that. i was just trying to get mine passed out and get my $ and leave. i didn't even look at him after a few minutes. mr. jenner. did you more or less walk up and down in front of the building passing out these leaflets? mr. steele. more or less. i figured the sooner i got rid of them the sooner i could leave, so that's all i was interested in doing. mr. jenner. did anybody talk to you about it, or say what the purpose of this was? mr. steele. no. mr. jenner. did anybody protest that you were passing out leaflets of which they disapproved? mr. steele. nobody. as a matter of fact, i didn't have any trouble getting rid of them. the people just sort of grabbed them as they passed by. it was just something free, you know, and i guess there's always a feeling that when you get something free you might as well take it. mr. jenner. what time of day did you go into the unemployment office with your girl friend? mr. steele. before , possibly or : ; i don't remember that. mr. jenner. do you remember the conversation with your girl friend when you told her that you were going to pass out these leaflets in front of this building? mr. steele. no; she was just saying she had to go back to the school board building to see this guy. mr. jenner. did you have any discussion with her as to whether she would accompany you? mr. steele. accompany me where? mr. jenner. accompany you to where you were going to pass out these leaflets? mr. steele. no. mr. jenner. did you drive her somewhere before you went back to pass out these leaflets? mr. steele. to the school board building. mr. jenner. the orleans parish school board? mr. steele. yes, sir. mr. jenner. did you return there and pick her up? mr. steele. i returned there, but i didn't pick her up. i don't know what happened, but i missed her somehow. mr. jenner. you say lee oswald told you it would take or minutes to pass out these leaflets. what time did you get back to pass them out after you had taken your girl friend to the school board building? mr. steele. i don't know what time it was, but i figure i was in front of the trade mart building about minutes-- or minutes; i think it was about after , maybe minutes after, when i got there. it only takes a few minutes to get from the school board building down to the trade mart. i had to be to work for o'clock. mr. jenner. you had to go to work that afternoon, that this happened? mr. steele. yes; i had to be at work at o'clock that afternoon. later on that night she called me and told me that my picture was on television. mr. jenner. did you see her before she came to see you about your picture being on television? mr. steele. no; i saw her later. mr. jenner. you saw her later that night? mr. steele. i don't think any more that night; i think it was the next day. mr. jenner. did you have a conversation with her about passing out these leaflets. mr. steele. yes. mr. jenner. what did you say to her and what did she say to you? mr. steele. she told me that i was in trouble, that there was some kind of a deal on television about passing out these leaflets or something, and from what she had read before, it sounded like communism, or something. now, i had taken a course in high school on that, so i knew a little bit about that, so i thought i had better tell my boss about it, which i did. mr. jenner. you told your boss about it? mr. steele. yes; after i had that talk with her, when she told me i was in trouble. mr. jenner. do you remember what time it was she called you and told you about this being on television? mr. steele. well, i know it was after o'clock. mr. jenner. that same day, when this occurred? mr. steele. yes; it was that same night. mr. jenner. and then you told your boss about it? mr. steele. yes, sir. mr. jenner. that same night? mr. steele. that same night. mr. jenner. who was your boss? mr. steele. henry muller. mr. jenner. henry muller? mr. steele. well, i think it was alfred muller. mr. jenner. alfred muller? mr. steele. yes, i think that's henry's brother. mr. jenner. what did your girl friend say when you had this discussion with her, to the effect that this literature might be communistic, or whatever it was she said? was she alarmed? mr. steele. yes, she was pretty excited, but we never really discussed it. i just told her i didn't know a thing about it, that i just made $ by passing these leaflets out, but i didn't know what it was all about. mr. jenner. but she did think you were in trouble? mr. steele. well, from what she saw on television, she thought i was. mr. jenner. what was your reaction? mr. steele. i got a little scared and worried, and so i called the fbi and told them about it. mr. jenner. you called the fbi right away? mr. steele. yes. mr. jenner. do you recall some pictures being taken during that time you were passing out this literature? mr. steele. at the time, when i noticed the cameras, that's when i looked down at the leaflets to see what i was passing out. mr. jenner. that's when you really took an interest in these leaflets? mr. steele. yes. that's when i looked at one of them and saw what it was. mr. jenner. did you go and call the tv station? mr. steele. yes; i called three of them. one of them didn't know anything about it. mr. jenner. why did you call the tv stations? mr. steele. to get my picture off of the television. mr. jenner. had you told your father in the meantime? mr. steele. no; i called him, but they were out to dinner. they had gone to camp leroy johnson, i believe. mr. jenner. was there any trouble during the time you were passing out these leaflets? mr. steele. no. mr. jenner. nobody tried to interfere with your passing them out? mr. steele. no. mr. jenner. nobody was arrested? mr. steele. no. mr. jenner. the police didn't come? mr. steele. no. i think you are talking about a different occasion now. i didn't know anything about that at the time, not until i was in the federal building, and they said something about it. mr. jenner. you say somebody else was helping pass out these leaflets? mr. steele. that's right. mr. jenner. was it somebody that walked up with oswald? mr. steele. yes. mr. jenner. but when you arrived on the scene, he was not there, is that right? mr. steele. do you mean oswald? mr. jenner. yes; and this man that walked up with him. mr. steele. no; i waited for him. mr. jenner. for oswald? mr. steele. yes; i waited for him maybe a minute, or a few seconds--i don't know how long it was, but it wasn't long. mr. jenner. and then he came? mr. steele. yes. mr. jenner. and somebody was accompanying him? mr. steele. yes. mr. jenner. did you know that man? mr. steele. no. mr. jenner. was he introduced to you? mr. steele. he was introduced to me, but i don't remember him. mr. jenner. did you eventually look at these leaflets? mr. steele. yes; after a few minutes. when i saw the cameras, i got suspicious then and looked at one of them. mr. jenner. did you have two supplies of these leaflets? mr. steele. yes. mr. jenner. tell me the circumstances. about how many had you given out at the time you quit? mr. steele. i had given out one supply and had gone back, and he had handed me some more, and at that time i seen the cameras, and that's when i looked to see what i was passing out. mr. jenner. looked at these leaflets? mr. steele. yes; at the leaflets. mr. jenner. all right, and then what happened? mr. steele. well, it didn't sound right to me. i don't remember exactly what it said, but it said something about keeping hands off of cuba, or something like that, and it just didn't sound right, and i knew that we were on bad terms with cuba. mr. jenner. what did you do then? mr. steele. i told oswald that i didn't want any more to do with it, and i wasn't going to pass out any more leaflets, and he said, "well, all right," and he gave me the $ , and i left. mr. jenner. he didn't pursue it any further? mr. steele. no. mr. jenner. but he went ahead and gave you the $ ; is that right? mr. steele. yes; and then i walked off. mr. jenner. did you have any leaflets left when you left the scene? mr. steele. no. i got rid of the ones i had left. mr. jenner. do you remember telling the fbi that you threw the remainder of the leaflets in a trash can there at the scene? mr. steele. yes; i threw what i had left in the trash can. i mean, when i left there, i didn't have any with me. mr. jenner. you threw the remaining leaflets away that you had? mr. steele. yes, sir; i threw them in the trash can around there some place, but after leaving that spot, you know. i mean, the can wasn't right there where i was passing them out. mr. jenner. did you have any conversation with oswald about whether these leaflets were or were not communistic in nature? mr. steele. i did ask him if they were communistic, and he said they were not. he said they were from an organization affiliated with tulane university, or something to that effect, of somehow being connected with tulane. i believe i had asked him something about the leaflets before, and he told me about them being connected with tulane--some connection there. i don't remember exactly what he said, but i do remember him telling me about that, you know, the other time i asked him, and so then i told him i didn't want any more to do with it, and he gave me the $ . mr. jenner. he did persist in your continuing to pass them out? mr. steele. no; he didn't. mr. jenner. did he deny they had any connection with communism, in so many words? mr. steele. he denied that; yes, sir. he didn't really say what it was for. mr. jenner. he just said it was from an organization connected with tulane university? mr. steele. yes. mr. jenner. but that didn't reassure you, did it? mr. steele. no: it didn't. it made me stop and wonder though if it was or wasn't, but then i didn't think any more about it. mr. jenner. anyhow, you didn't want any more to do with it once you saw the cameras, did you? mr. steele. no; i didn't. mr. jenner. and you got your $ , which was the price agreed on, and you left, is that right? mr. steele. that's right. mr. jenner. this man that came along with oswald, have you ever seen him since then? mr. steele. no. mr. jenner. had you ever seen him before that time? mr. steele. no; i never did. mr. jenner. was there any conversation between oswald and the man he brought along with him that you might have overheard? mr. steele. no. mr. jenner. what was your impression of the connection between them, if any? mr. steele. the same as mine. he was getting them out of this unemployment place, just like he did me. mr. jenner. when you first went into this unemployment place, did you notice oswald in there at that time? mr. steele. no. mr. jenner. when did you first notice him? mr. steele. when he came up to me and asked me if i wanted to make a couple of dollars. mr. jenner. tell me about that, when you first noticed him--when he approached you, and what he said. first, how was he dressed, if you remember? mr. steele. he had on a white shirt and tie and black pants, and he had a little briefcase with him, i think. mr. jenner. probably containing a supply of these leaflets, do you think? mr. steele. well, i don't know. mr. jenner. but he had a little briefcase that you saw, is that right? mr. steele. yes; he had a briefcase with him. mr. jenner. have you ever heard of the name hidell--a. j. hidell? mr. steele. no. mr. jenner. you have never heard of him? mr. steele. no. mr. jenner. what did the fbi say to you after you talked to them? mr. steele. that night? mr. jenner. yes. mr. steele. they told me they couldn't do anything about keeping my picture off of television, and that the best thing for me to do would be to call the stations and tell them about it, and ask them to keep my picture off. mr. jenner. all right now; have you told me everything you know about this incident? mr. steele. as far as i remember. mr. jenner. and everything as far as your participation in this is concerned? mr. steele. yes. mr. jenner. did oswald ever contact you again to pass out any more leaflets? mr. steele. no, sir. mr. jenner. did anyone ever contact you on his behalf and ask you to pass out leaflets at all? mr. steele. no. mr. jenner. i'm going to show you some pictures that are marked pizzo exhibits nos. -a and -b, and exhibit no. , deposition, carlos bringuier, april , . disregarding the various arrows and marks, because they will serve only to confuse you, do you see the man known as lee harvey oswald on any of those pictures? mr. steele. yes; in all three. mr. jenner. all three? mr. steele. yes. mr. jenner. point to the one on your left, which is -a, which is oswald? (the witness has pointed to the figure of a man over whose head there is a green cross.) mr. jenner. now, the second picture, which is -b, do you see him on that one? (the witness points to a man over whose head there is a green vertical stripe.) mr. jenner. and do you see him on the third picture, which is the one identified as exhibit no. ? point to him. (let the record show that the witness has indicated by pointing the figure of the man identified as lee harvey oswald.) mr. jenner. put an "x" on his body, if you will. (let the record show that the witness has put a red "x" mark on the body of the man known to be lee harvey oswald, and that he is the same man shown in each picture, and so identified by the witness.) mr. jenner. now, taking a look at -a, you see there is an arrow over the head of a man to the left of the man over whose head you put the green cross? mr. steele. what's that? mr. jenner. you see that arrow over the head of the man to the left of the man with the green cross over his head? mr. steele. yes. mr. jenner. do you recognize this man over the head of whom there is an arrow? mr. steele. no. mr. jenner. was he there the day that you were passing out this literature? mr. steele. not that i could see at the time, but from previous pictures that i have seen, he apparently was though. mr. jenner. previous pictures that you have seen from whom? mr. steele. the fbi and the secret service. mr. jenner. are you shown on any of these pictures now? mr. steele. yes. mr. jenner. you are? mr. steele. oh, am i shown? mr. jenner. yes. mr. steele. no. mr. jenner. do you see yourself on any of these pictures? mr. steele. no, i don't; not on these. mr. jenner. do you see anybody else on those pictures that you now recognize as having been present on the first occasion, on the occasion when you were there, other than lee harvey oswald? mr. steele. that i remember; no. mr. jenner. no one else? mr. steele. no. mr. jenner. there was no incident on the day that you passed out this literature? mr. steele. no. mr. jenner. and the police didn't come? mr. steele. no. mr. jenner. when was that, august ? mr. steele. i can't give the date on that; i don't know. mr. jenner. it was in august though, wasn't it? mr. steele. it was in august all right, but i don't remember the exact date. mr. jenner. do you remember that some people were taking pictures? mr. steele. yes; i do. mr. jenner. and you remember your girl friend calling you that evening and saying you were on television? mr. steele. yes; she came over. mr. jenner. she came over to your place? mr. steele. yes, sir. i remember now; she came over. mr. jenner. where were you then? mr. steele. i was at work. mr. jenner. did you call the fbi then? mr. steele. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and the fbi said what? mr. steele. i had asked them about getting my picture off of television, and they said they couldn't do anything about it, that there was nothing wrong with it--that it was news. mr. jenner. they couldn't interfere with the news media? mr. steele. that's right. mr. jenner. that's what they told you? mr. steele. yes. mr. jenner. did you call the television stations? mr. steele. yes, sir. mr. jenner. what did you tell them? mr. steele. i asked them if they would take my picture off of the television screen. i told them who i was, and i told them about it, that i was the gentleman that had passed out the literature, and i told them that my father was with the sheriff's office, and it wouldn't be too good with him, and at the time didn't know what i was passing out, until i had seen the cameras, and then looked at them, and they said, "well, all right then," and it never came on television anymore, until the president's death. mr. jenner. describe this man who came along with oswald. mr. steele. right now i haven't the slightest idea what he looked like. i think, as i recall, he was about oswald's height. mr. jenner. oswald was foot . you say he was the same height, or taller, or what? mr. steele. well, he wasn't shorter. he was either the same height or slightly taller. mr. jenner. would it refresh your recollection if i told you that when you were interviewed by special agents of the federal bureau of investigation on the th of november, , that you told them that he was aged or years, that he was about feet tall, slender built, dark hair, and olive complexion? mr. steele. yes. mr. jenner. was that the way you recall him? mr. steele. yes; he was slender built and about my complexion. mr. jenner. you have dark skin? mr. steele. caucasian, dark. mr. jenner. what would you say he weighed? mr. steele. about , , i guess. mr. jenner. how tall are you? mr. steele. six feet. mr. jenner. would this man have been about your height? mr. steele. i guess so, but it didn't seem like he was quite as tall as i am. mr. jenner. do you think he was more slender than you? mr. steele. yes. mr. jenner. how was he dressed? mr. steele. sport shirt, as far as i can remember. mr. jenner. white or colored, or what? mr. steele. i don't even remember the man right now, to tell you the truth. i just have a very vague recollection of what he looked like. mr. jenner. but you are sure he was slender built? mr. steele. yes, sir. mr. jenner. now, you have the right, if you wish to exercise it, of reading over your deposition and signing it, or you may waive that right and let the court reporter transcribe your testimony, and it will be forwarded direct to washington. what do you prefer to do? mr. steele. well, i will do what you consider best. mr. jenner. well, you are willing to waive the necessity of reading your deposition and signing it then? mr. steele. yes, sir. mr. jenner. all right. is there anything else that occurred that you haven't told me about, or that i haven't asked you about, that would be of assistance to the commission? mr. steele. no; i can't think of anything else. mr. jenner. all right. thank you for coming in voluntarily and testifying. testimony of charles hall steele, sr. the testimony of charles hall steele, sr., was taken on april , , at the old civil courts building, royal and conti streets, new orleans, la., by mr. albert e. jenner, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. charles hall steele, sr., madrid street, new orleans, la., after first being duly sworn, testified as follows: mr. jenner. you are mr. charles hall steele, sr., is that right? mr. steele. right. mr. jenner. and you have seen the letter received by your son from mr. rankin, general counsel of the president's commission, have you not? mr. steele. yes. mr. jenner. you have read it? mr. steele. yes. mr. jenner. did you also read the documents that were enclosed with that letter? mr. steele. no, sir. mr. jenner. well, those documents, mr. steele, consist of senate joint resolution , authorizing the creation of the commission to investigate the assassination of president john fitzgerald kennedy; the executive order no. of president lyndon b. johnson, appointing that commission and fixing its powers and its duties, and a copy of the rules and regulations under which we take testimony before the commission and also by deposition, as in this case. the commission is directed to investigate all the facts and circumstances surrounding or bearing upon the assassination of our late president kennedy. i am albert e. jenner, jr., one of the various members of the legal staff of the commission, and we are here today taking depositions of witnesses who may have in some way touched the lives of the oswald family during their residence here in new orleans. you have told us that you have some concern about your boy in this matter, and you have also told me of your position in this community both as a family man and a public official. i think it will be proper, due to the circumstances of your situation, to put a statement from you into the record of these proceedings before the commission, and so, with your permission, i will ask you some questions at this time. mr. steele. all right. mr. jenner. now, you are a native-born american here, and your wife is a native-born american, and all your children were born here, is that right? mr. steele. correct. mr. jenner. in and around this area? mr. steele. yes, sir. mr. jenner. you are how old now, sir? mr. steele. i am , but i will be the th of august, this year-- . mr. jenner. do you have any children in addition to charles hall, jr.? mr. steele. i have a daughter jacqueline; she's a twin to charles, and i have one boy gerald, who is aged . mr. jenner. jacqueline, what is she doing? mr. steele. she is at mercy hospital, a student nurse. she will graduate in august. mr. jenner. now, tell me about yourself, mr. steele? mr. steele. i am a deputy sheriff, attached to the civil district court, and an officer of the court. i own a small business known as the liberty coffee and household co. mr. jenner. you are a service man, are you? mr. steele. years on active national guard status, subject to hours' notice. mr. jenner. were you in world war ii? mr. steele. i was. mr. jenner. what was the nature of that service? mr. steele. i was inducted right here in , june or july; i don't remember exactly, and i went on duty with the afrtc, at fort knox, ky. that's the air force replacement training center, at fort knox, and then i was transferred to the th armored division, and that division was sent to england, but i didn't go with them. i was in the cadre that was sent to the tank destroyer battalion at camp forest, tenn., and we pulled winter maneuvers, after which they found that our unit was not ready to go overseas, so we were disbanded and i was then sent to the st tank destroyer battalion at camp shelby, where i was a sergeant, and then i was sent to the d tank destroyer battalion, and i finally ended up after years in charleston, s.c., in charge of a g.u. ward, so i spent two lovely years living off of uncle sam, and i was discharged as a staff sergeant, and then i went to fort sill, okla., in , after being commissioned in the national guard in , and received my field commission in artillery, and i have stepped my way up to where i am now a major, general staff, assistant g- . mr. jenner. all right; now tell me about your boy. had he ever been in trouble before this thing occurred? mr. steele. he never had a police record, or anything like that. mr. jenner. are you catholic? mr. steele. my family is; i am not. i am presbyterian, but the children are catholic. mr. jenner. then i take it your boy has never been in any serious trouble? mr. steele. he had better not be. mr. jenner. you heard his story, didn't you, mr. steele, about what happened on this occasion? mr. steele. i started that story off with him from the minute he hit that front door, and i have been right with him on down through the fbi, the secret service, and everybody, right on through, and this is the only time that he has ever been questioned outside of my presence. mr. jenner. well, he is your son, and i know you have his welfare in mind all the time, and there is a possibility that fathers might become prejudiced in matters of this kind, but knowing him as you do and being his father, and knowing his weaknesses and so forth, do you think now that he is telling the truth about this? mr. steele. well, let me put it this way. in my experience, being a battery commander and handling to men at one time, and i have been in court, and with my experience and all that, i have honestly tried to trick him, using the same tactics that you might say the best attorneys would use, and i feel that he is honestly telling the truth. i feel he has told that story over and over again in exactly the same way, so that's the only conclusion i can come to. in my own mind, i am positive he didn't know what he was doing at the time. mr. jenner. you gave him a good cross examination, in other words, is that right? mr. steele. believe me, because i was under a nervous tension over this, i'll tell you. i was just promoted in august, to my present position, and actually i am not a state officer; i am a federal officer, and at the same time i had been in the middle of a campaign, running for the democratic nomination for committeeman, and i am a member of the pledged electors' group, and i advocate that i as a democrat am pledged to the choice of the democratic party, and i just couldn't stand by and let something like this come up and take that all away from me, so i certainly did cross-examine him, and i got to the bottom of it, and i'm satisfied that he was not at fault. he had a weak moment in which he saw a chance to make a couple of bucks, but other than that, he didn't have the slightest idea of what he was doing. i'm satisfied of that. mr. jenner. is there anything else that you would like to add to what you have said, mr. steele? mr. steele. no; i think that's about it. mr. jenner. now, you have the privilege, if you wish, to read and sign your deposition, or you may waive that, and the reporter will transcribe the deposition, and it will be forwarded direct to washington. what is your preference on that? mr. steele. i will waive it. mr. jenner. all right, mr. steele; thank you for coming in and testifying voluntarily. i wanted your background in the record, in view of the fact that your boy did have personal contact with oswald and particularly because of your position in the community, i wanted your background in the record. thank you very much. mr. steele. i think i can promise you that he is not going to get into any more trouble. we had that out over and over, and i don't think he will be passing out any more leaflets. mr. jenner. i think we all believe that, mr. steele; well, thank you again for giving your statement. it will be of help to the commission in evaluating the testimony of your son, by showing his family background, and so forth. thank you. testimony of philip geraci iii the testimony of philip geraci iii, accompanied by his mother, was taken on april - , , at the old civil courts building, royal and conti streets, new orleans, la., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. (reporter's note: the witness, philip geraci, was accompanied into the hearing room by his mother.) philip geraci, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: mr. liebeler. my name is wesley j. liebeler. i am a member of the legal staff of the president's commission investigating the assassination of president kennedy. staff members have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the commission pursuant to authority granted to the commission by executive order no. , dated november , , and joint resolution of congress no. . i understand that mr. lee rankin wrote you a letter last week in which he told you that i would contact you, did he not? mr. geraci. a letter? no. mr. liebeler. you did not receive a letter from mr. rankin? mrs. geraci. would you please give us one. we would like to have it to keep. mr. geraci. somebody said they sent one. mr. liebeler. you didn't receive it? mr. geraci. no. mrs. geraci. we did not receive it. mr. liebeler. now i think in point of fact that is right. i think that the decision to take your testimony was made subsequent to the time that the letters were sent out to other witnesses. now you are---- mrs. geraci. may i make a statement before we go any further? mr. liebeler. let the record indicate that mrs. geraci is in the hearing room at her request to assist her son and give moral support. mrs. geraci. and we want no publicity at all, please. mr. liebeler. we have already given to the reporters the names of some of the witnesses who came in, but we have already been advised that you did not want any publicity at this point, and we did not give your name to the newspaper reporter or make any statement about philip's appearance here. mr. geraci. does that mean i can't tell anyone about it? mr. liebeler. that is something you can settle among yourselves. mr. geraci. i told everybody i went to a doctor's appointment this evening. mr. liebeler. [handing documents to witness] now i want to give you a copy of the joint resolution of congress and of the executive order that i have just referred to, and also of the rules of practice adopted by the commission concerning the taking of testimony of witnesses. those rules provide that technically you are entitled to days' notice before you appear to have your testimony taken, but you are entitled to waive that notice, and i assume that, since you are here, you would be willing to waive it with regard to the testimony. is that right, philip? mr. geraci. i don't know. mrs. geraci. yes. well, they did not notify us days ahead of time, but that is all right. we are here. they called yesterday. mr. liebeler. you have indicated that you are willing to go ahead with the testimony instead of waiting for the days' notice? (mrs. geraci nodded assent.) mr. liebeler. philip, would you state your full name for the record, please? mr. geraci. philip geraci, the third. mr. liebeler. what is your address? mr. geraci. green acres road. mr. liebeler. new orleans? mr. geraci. metairie. mr. liebeler. when were you born? mr. geraci. february , . mr. liebeler. so you are now about years old or years old? mr. geraci. yes. well, i am . mr. liebeler. do you go to school? mr. geraci. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. where? mr. geraci. east jefferson high school. mr. liebeler. and you are--what?--a junior there now, or a senior? mr. geraci. no, sophomore, th grade. mr. liebeler. th grade. do you know a man by the name of carlos bringuier? mr. geraci. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. when did you first meet him? mr. geraci. well, this was summer, last summer, some place around the beginning of it, and--you want me to tell you everything about it? mr. liebeler. yes. mr. geraci. well, i was down there with a friend. [addressing mother.] do you think i should give his name? (mrs. geraci nodded assent.) mr. liebeler. please do. you were down where? mr. geraci. down there in new orleans, i mean on canal street. we had to go to some radio shop. it was bill dwyer. that is a friend. and we were down there and we wanted to go in radio shops and everything, so i saw--going down there i saw, looking to the side, that they had a sign saying "casa roca," and i took spanish in school, so i was interested, and i went in there and--well, he was a little reluctant, but we went anyway. mr. liebeler. your friend was a little reluctant? mr. geraci. yes, a little bit. he didn't get mixed up in this or anything. and then, well, when we were in there, we looked around a little at everything, then i asked the man there--i didn't know it was carlos bringuier then--i asked him was he a cuban. he said yes, he was an exile, and everything, you know. i asked him a few things, i guess--i don't know exactly what--you know, just a little conversation like. then i ask him was there anything that i as an american could do. he said, well, he didn't know, to come back later. you know, he acted as though maybe--like--just like he just didn't want me to help or something like that, i guess, so we left and went home, and that was it. mr. liebeler. and when did you see him again, if you did? you did see him again, didn't you? mr. geraci. yes. mr. liebeler. when? mr. geraci. i don't remember when. i remember i saw him a few times, i couldn't exactly say how many, but i went back another time when i was in town, i stopped off and saw him, and i saw him another time. then i think it was about the fourth time that i was there that i saw lee harvey oswald. mr. liebeler. now before we get to that, did you ever raise any money for carlos' activities? mr. geraci. not until the third time. mr. liebeler. what happened? mr. geraci. no; wait. come to think of it, i think it was about the fifth time that i saw oswald; something like that. i remember i went back--it was about the third time--after asking him--i asked him, "do you think it is possible to raise donations?" and he said, "well, yes; it is possible." and he showed me these little yellow slips, sort of like yellow, and they were like receipts if you paid, and he said i could get them--you know--if i wanted to, i could, you know, go, and he could give them to me, and go and get donations and give the people this receipt and bring the money back to him. mr. liebeler. so did you take some of the receipts? mr. geraci. yes. mr. liebeler. and did you get some money? mr. geraci. yes. mr. liebeler. and you gave it to carlos? mr. geraci. yes; it was about $ . mr. liebeler. and you turned that money over to him? mr. geraci. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. now, is it correct that on the day that you came into the casa roca to give this money to carlos that you met lee oswald? mr. geraci. i don't know if i turned in the money or not. no; i don't think i turned in money, but i couldn't be sure. i remember i went there, and that is the time the last guy, vance blalock, came along with me. it was his first time and everything. and we went in there--i might have turned it in, i am not too sure. maybe i did; maybe i didn't. i can't remember too much, but i was in there anyway talking to him and that is when i met him. mr. liebeler. that is when you met oswald? mr. geraci. yes; you want me to tell all that? mr. liebeler. yes; tell me all the circumstances of how oswald---- mr. geraci. everything i know? mr. liebeler. met you and everything you know about it, what the conversation was, who was there. mr. geraci. well, we were--vance and me went in there, vance and i, we went into there, i introduced vance to carlos, and carlos started talking to him about, you know, freedom and all that, democracy and everything. then later on while we were talking, lee oswald came in, you know, while we were talking, and he came in a little while later. he was by himself and he seemed a little nervous. i remember he was dressed just like in that picture there shows. [indicating photograph.] mr. liebeler. you are referring to a picture here on the table? mr. geraci. yes, sir; well he was dressed something like that. mr. liebeler. which has previously been marked as exhibit to the affidavit of jesse j. garner. i show you that picture. [exhibiting photograph to witness.] you say lee was dressed something like that when you met him? mr. geraci. yes; you know, he had on a tie and a shirt, short sleeved shirt, and sort of like dress pants. i don't know the color of them, but they were sort of like dress pants, just about as much as this. [indicating photograph.] mr. liebeler. do you recognize that individual in the picture as being the man that you saw in the store that day? mr. geraci. well, tell you the truth, when i first heard about it in the papers and on the tv, i didn't recognize him. see, i forgot that i met this guy over there, you know, i forgot about it, and i thought i didn't meet him. it wasn't until the fbi man came to my house and he showed me a picture of him when he was first under arrest, and he got arrested in august, the th i think. mr. liebeler. he showed you a picture that had been taken of lee when he had been under arrest here in new orleans? mr. geraci. yes; it was one of those things with three things, showing him from the front, the side, and his face. mr. liebeler. did you then recognize the man in the picture that they showed you as being the man that you met in the store that day? mr. geraci. well, you see, i didn't exactly recognize him maybe, but anyway i was pretty sure it was him though. he said--he showed me that and said, "do you ever remember an ex-marine--and then i remembered there was a guy who was dressed something like that who was an ex-marine who came in, and he did have a funny name, you know, like lee. it's a little unusual, it's kind of rare, and i remembered the last name was a little hard, so it just fits that that was him. mr. liebeler. now what kind of conversations did you have with this fellow or what did you talk about? mr. geraci. well, first---- mr. liebeler. as i understand it now, there were this marine, lee oswald, and carlos, and vance blalock and yourself. is that right? mr. geraci. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. was there anybody else there? mr. geraci. well, while we were talking, this man came up. he was in a big truck, some big truck. i never looked at it closely. he came up and stopped, and the man rushed in, and he was wearing--well, he was wearing one of these--like a cap like you see them wearing over in england. i don't know what kind it is, but anyway it is the kind that truckdrivers wear, i guess, and he looked kind of spanish. maybe he was a cuban exile. he was kind of fat, and he came in and showed carlos this broken radio that he had, so carlos left and he started fixing the radio and left us to talk to ourselves, lee and me and my friend. well, he is the only other person i know that came in. i don't know if he knew what was going on. mr. liebeler. now tell us the conversation that you and lee and vance and carlos had, the best you can recall it. mr. geraci. well, carlos and me and vance were kind of talking among ourselves, and he came in and said, "excuse me," and, you know, he acted a little nervous and things like that. he asked, "is this the cuban headquarters, cuban exile headquarters?" and, "are you a cuban exile?" you know, the way i acted when i first went in there. just asked him a few questions, was he a cuban exile, and carlos said yes. he asked him some questions like was he connected with the cosa nostra, la cosi nostra. mr. liebeler. who asked that? mr. geraci. oswald; he asked that. mr. liebeler. of carlos? mr. geraci. yes; and carlos said no, he wasn't. oswald then asked where was his headquarters--in miami? and carlos said yes; and he said--let's see--and then oswald asked, said something like, "it is kind of exciting meeting someone"--i don't know if he said exciting--but he expressed something like that. he said, you know, he expressed wonder or something like that at meeting somebody who was a real cuban exile, you know, someone who is really trying to do something to help free cuba and all that. he didn't really say much. in the papers they said he tried to join and all that. that must have been later, because this was---- mr. liebeler. he didn't do that when you were there? mr. geraci. no. this was his first visit. as far as i can make out, it must have been, and he asked a few questions like that. carlos just answered real simply and all that, he didn't go into any big speeches, you know, with them, like he did for me and vance, just answered his questions simply. then when the man came in with the broken radio, carlos left, and that left oswald, me, and vance by ourselves. then, well, we asked--you know, we were a little interested in guerrilla warfare ourselves and things like that, and he said, well, he was an ex-marine, said he was in the marines once. he said he learned a little bit about that stuff, and he said a few things about guerrilla warfare i remember, like he said the way to derail a train was to wrap chain around the ties of the track and then lock it with a padlock and the train would derail. he said the thing he liked best of all was learning how to blow up the huey p. long bridge. he said you put explosive at each end on the banks and blow it up, and that leaves the one column standing. and he said how to make a homemade gun and how to make gunpowder, homemade gunpowder. he just went into those real simply. he didn't really, you know, tell us how to do it or anything, just said like if you want to make a homemade gun, you know, do something like--you know, the thing you pull back [demonstrating] and it goes forward, like on one of the pinball machines. he just said something like that. he didn't really go into detail or anything. we didn't ask him. and by this time carlos came back from the other guy, and came back, and he was listening, and, well, that is about all. oh, there was one important thing. oswald said something like that he had a military manual from when he was in the marines, and he said he would give it to me, and i said, "that is all right. you don't have to. you can give it to carlos." he said, "well, ok, he will give it to carlos next time he comes." and after that--well, everybody left. that is as far as i can make out. mr. liebeler. do you remember---- mr. geraci. and he said he was going to come back later and give carlos this military manual from when he was in the marines. mr. liebeler. and was he going to give this to carlos for carlos' benefit, or was he---- mr. geraci. for carlos' benefit, i guess, carlos' or the cuban exiles'. mr. liebeler. did you hear any conversation about training guerrillas to oppose castro? mr. geraci. no. he didn't say anything about being an expert rifle shooter, never said anything about going to russia or joining or training or anything like that. mr. liebeler. well, was there a conversation concerning the training of anti-castro troops or guerrillas to oppose castro? mr. geraci. no; that must have been later, maybe when he came back some other time. mr. liebeler. now were you present at all times while oswald was there? mr. geraci. we got there before he did and we left at the same time he did. mr. liebeler. so, as far as you know, there wouldn't have been any opportunity for oswald and carlos to talk among themselves where you wouldn't have heard what they said? mr. geraci. that is right; because we were there all the time. mr. liebeler. and you have no recollection that oswald told carlos that he wanted to help train anti-castro guerrillas to fight against castro? mr. geraci. none at all; none that i remember. mr. liebeler. all right. now what was oswald going to bring this marine book back for? mr. geraci. well, i guess to give to carlos to help him out or something. first he was going to give it to me and vance. i guess he wanted us to blow up the bridge or something. i don't know. we said no; and so he said, "ok, i will give it to carlos," you know, because after all carlos--i guess he could use it better than we could, you know, blow up bridges in cuba or something, and i guess he was just going to give it to him so he could learn some stuff from it. i wouldn't know. mr. liebeler. now when you left the store did you try to follow oswald at all? mr. geraci. well, we had some thought about it. when he left, he was going to go down--he crossed canal street and he was--he kept on going that way, i think on st. charles or claiborne--way down there near the end--which one is closer to the river? st. charles? mr. liebeler. i am not familiar with new orleans, so i get them mixed up. mr. geraci. it must have been st. charles he went down, and vance said, "hey, let's follow him, see where he lives." he told us where he lived, but the way he told us the address---- mr. liebeler. you don't know what it was? mr. geraci. when the fbi man came by my house that day, he asked me, and i could just barely remember it. i remember it was to the left of canal street. it was magazine street. mr. liebeler. magazine street? what number? mr. geraci. well, i remembered the number a little. i couldn't remember it altogether, but i remember---- mr. liebeler. do you remember that he had told you the number? mr. geraci. yes; and i could--i had a few--i mean i had a little recollection about what it was, like it was a big number sort of like and had two zeros in it or something. i don't even remember. it seemed that his number did have that. we decided--we thought maybe we can follow him for fun, but we decided no, we had better not, you know, because it was not good or anything, so we just went up canal street. mr. liebeler. do you remember whether oswald said anything about having been in florida? mr. geraci. in florida? mr. liebeler. yes. mr. geraci. i am not too sure about that. mr. liebeler. you don't remember one way or the other whether---- mr. geraci. the only thing i remember about florida is when he asked was headquarters down there. he could have, but i don't know. mr. liebeler. now did you ever see oswald after that? mr. geraci. no; that was the last time; first and last. mr. liebeler. how about carlos? did you see him after that? mr. geraci. yes. that time when we found out that it was oswald who killed him, well, then i went there, you know, to get things straightened out and talk with carlos a little about him, you know. mr. liebeler. you went back and talked with carlos, about this meeting with oswald, after the assassination? is that right? mr. geraci. yes. mr. liebeler. do you remember whether you saw carlos between the time that you met oswald and the assassination? mr. geraci. carlos? mr. liebeler. yes. mr. geraci. not that i remember. mr. liebeler. can you tell us approximately when it was that you met oswald? was it july or august? mr. geraci. well, last time the fbi man came, i estimated around late july. i couldn't remember now, so i will just stick with late july. that seems to stick pretty good. vance said the same thing himself when the fbi man questioned him, so i am pretty sure it was between late july--middle july to late july. mr. liebeler. did you form any opinion about oswald when you met him? mr. geraci. when i met him? mr. liebeler. yes. what did you think of him? mr. geraci. well, when he went in there, i noticed he was a little nervous. mr. liebeler. how did he show his nervousness? do you remember? mr. geraci. well, the way he talked, you know. well, you know, the way he talked i guess, kind of, you know, searching around for words and all that, and i remember he leaned on the table, and i remember reading once that, you know, if you exert some physical exertion, it kind of helps you tend to calm down or something like that. anyway, i could tell by the way he was leaning on the table that maybe he was nervous. mr. liebeler. other than this nervousness, did you form any other opinion about it? mr. geraci. not particularly. mr. liebeler. did he appear to be an intelligent person? mr. geraci. intelligent person? mr. liebeler. yes. mr. geraci. sort of. he didn't appear stupid or anything like that. he seemed ok, you know. he didn't seem like a communist. seemed like he just wanted to, you know, help out too, sort of. mr. liebeler. did you subsequently learn that oswald was arrested by the new orleans police department for distributing fair play for cuba committee leaflets? mr. geraci. i didn't know that until after he killed kennedy and it was in the papers. mr. liebeler. you didn't hear it? mr. geraci. on the radio? mr. liebeler. on the radio or television. mr. geraci. no. mr. liebeler. do you think you have now told us everything that you can remember about this meeting you had with oswald and carlos? is there anything else that you can think of? mr. geraci. no. there might be one thing. carlos, when he talked to me and vance and my friend, bill dwyer, the first time, you know, he made speeches and all that. when he met him--i don't know--seemed like maybe he didn't want him or something. i am not too sure. mr. liebeler. carlos didn't seem to open up to oswald? mr. geraci. that is right. he opened up enough, you know, but he didn't give him any speeches or anything like that. mr. liebeler. if you can think of anything else that occurred, we would like to have you tell us. mr. geraci. ok. mr. liebeler. if you can't, i don't have any other questions. mr. geraci. he did seem like--i guess he did seem like the type who was a little antisocial. mr. liebeler. he didn't seem to be too friendly? mr. geraci. no. he seemed friendly. i mean, he seemed friendly, you know, but he--maybe like he didn't have enough experience with people, sort of. he seemed friendly though. that is one thing. mr. liebeler. i don't have any other questions. mrs. geraci. do you have a record of me reporting carlos to the fbi? do you have that in the record anywhere where i found out--he told me he was going to collect money for cuba, but i didn't know he was giving out these little tickets as he called them, and then when i found out he had collected $ and brought it down and i saw the receipts and he had more tickets, we forbade him to go down there, and carlos called the house to try to get him a--what is it--a license or permit to go from house to house and collect money. mr. geraci. he never called me. mrs. geraci. he did call me. mr. geraci. he called you? carlos? mrs. geraci. i spoke with him on the phone. mr. geraci. that is because i told him--when i collected, a man told me to do something like that, that i needed a license, so i went and told carlos, "you have to get a license." he said, "don't collect any more until i get one." then he went to city hall and got some stuff he had to fill out. mr. liebeler. this wasn't oswald who told you you couldn't collect? mr. geraci. no. mr. liebeler. oswald didn't have anything to do with this? mr. geraci. no; this was before i knew oswald. this is a man works some place--who works in a cleaner's, i remember. i went there and he said i had to get a license to do that, so i called carlos on the phone and told him. mrs. geraci. then when carlos called the house, i realized he was still involved in this. mr. geraci. i told you i was. mrs. geraci. i put my foot down and told him he couldn't do it any more, and i called the fbi. mr. geraci. and the better business bureau. mrs. geraci. they told me to call the better business bureau, but the man at the fbi told me he couldn't give out any information as to whether this was a communist organization or not, and the headquarters were in miami, and the best thing to do would be not to let him get involved in it any more. then i called the better business bureau, and they were supposed to check with miami, but i never did get a report back from him. mr. liebeler. was this before or after you met oswald? mr. geraci. this was before. mrs. geraci. but he has the receipt at home with the date on it. when he gave carlos money, carlos gave him a receipt. mr. geraci. i remember carlos making out a check to give the money to miami too. when i gave him the money, he put the money in his bank and made out a check to the headquarters. mrs. geraci. we met carlos just now in the hall, and he told me the best thing philip could do would be listen to his parents and be a good student. right now that would be the way he could help combat communism. and i told him i thought he was too young to get involved in things like this, selling tickets for cuba and all this stuff. last year he was only and too young to be involved in all that mess. the man at the fbi told me that an organization could be all right today and next week it would be communist-controlled and how was i to know. mr. liebeler. do you know who you talked to at the fbi? mrs. geraci. gee, i may have his name at home with these slips of paper that i took from him. mr. liebeler. it is not really important. i just wondered if you remembered. mrs. geraci. well, i wanted his name cleared for getting mixed up with carlos, because i didn't know from beans about carlos. he could be a communist. i don't know who is and who isn't. when i found out he met oswald, i nearly died. the week this happened he was camping with the boy scouts and gone friday, saturday, and sunday when the stuff was on tv. mr. geraci. i was in school when he got shot. mrs. geraci. but you were in camp, but you didn't see a lot of the funeral and all that stuff showing oswald's picture. mr. liebeler. how did you first become aware that oswald was the fellow you met? did vance talk to you about it? do you remember? mr. geraci. the first time was when the fbi agent came to my house and asked did i see an ex-marine and showed a picture and all that. i didn't even know it before that. it was just then that i realized. mr. liebeler. did the fbi man tell you how he---- mr. geraci. got my name? mr. liebeler. what prompted him, why did he come to your house? did he tell you? mr. geraci. well, he said he couldn't tell me that. i asked him, and he said, well, he couldn't tell me. of course, i guess it might have been because we--my mother called, you know, about this cuban business--they got my name on their list or something, i guess, and when they found out that he tried to join that group, that must have been where it came from. that is what i think. mrs. geraci. they probably had a list of people who were collecting money for the organization. mr. liebeler. ok, i don't have any more questions. i do want to thank you very much for coming in and being as cooperative as you have, and, on behalf of the commission, i want to thank you very much. mr. geraci. ok. mrs. geraci. you are welcome, so long as we don't have any publicity. mr. liebeler. that is something you never can guarantee. testimony of vance blalock the testimony of vance blalock, accompanied by his parents, was taken on april - , , at the old civil courts building, royal and conti streets, new orleans, la., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. vance blalock, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: mr. liebeler. my name is wesley j. liebeler. i am a member of the legal staff of the president's commission investigating the assassination of president kennedy. staff members have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the commission, pursuant to authority granted to the commission by executive order no. , dated november , , and joint resolution of congress no. . i understand, vance, that mr. lee rankin, who is general counsel of the commission, wrote you a letter last week---- mr. blalock. that is right. mr. liebeler. and told you that i would be in touch with you concerning the taking of your testimony. i understand that mr. rankin enclosed with that letter a copy of the executive order and of the resolution of congress to which i have just referred, as well as a copy of the rules of procedure adopted by the commission governing the taking of the testimony of witnesses. did you receive that letter and those documents? mr. blalock. yes; i did. mr. liebeler. we want to inquire very briefly of you concerning an event which occurred some time in the summer of here in new orleans. we understand that you were present at a meeting, a chance meeting, between lee harvey oswald and carlos bringuier. before we get into the details of that, however, would you state your full name for the record. mr. blalock. vance douglas blalock. mr. liebeler. let the record show that your mother and father are here in the room with us. how old are you, vance? mr. blalock. i am . mr. liebeler. where were you born? mr. blalock. lake charles, la. mr. liebeler. where do you live now? mr. blalock. metairie, la. mr. liebeler. how long have you lived there? mr. blalock. less than a year. mr. liebeler. do you go to school? mr. blalock. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. where? mr. blalock. east jefferson high school. mr. liebeler. what grade are you in at east jefferson high school? mr. blalock. tenth. mr. liebeler. do you know carlos bringuier? mr. blalock. i have met him once. mr. liebeler. how did it happen that you met him? mr. blalock. i went downtown with my friend, philip geraci. we went to a store to return funds that philip had collected for the organization this man had had, and while i was there i met carlos. that is how i met him. mr. liebeler. did you have anything to do with these funds that were collected by your friend geraci? mr. blalock. no, sir; i didn't. mr. liebeler. that was entirely his operation? mr. blalock. yes. mr. liebeler. do you remember where you went that day with philip? mr. blalock. yes, sir; we went to decatur street, i believe it is. i am not sure. the store is the casa roca. mr. liebeler. what organization was it that bringuier was running? do you know? mr. blalock. i couldn't say the spanish name. the american name of it is the cuban student revolutionary organization. mr. liebeler. can you tell me approximately when that was? mr. blalock. last part of the summer. i couldn't---- mr. liebeler. late july or early august would it be, or some time in august of ? mr. blalock. august would be the closest i could get. i don't remember the exact date. mr. liebeler. tell me the conversation that you and philip had with bringuier when you went into the store. mr. blalock. oh, we entered the store and philip introduced me to carlos, and i told him--i saw the funds philip had collected for him, and i told him i was curious about what it was for, and then he explained for me how the organization worked and told me he received the funds from people in new orleans and sent it to florida, and that was his total business, and he explained that communism was where the kids are supposed to tell everything on their parents, to obey the state and not their parents. mr. liebeler. present at this conversation were just you and philip and carlos? is that right? mr. blalock. no; there was another man--must have worked at the store. he was present. mr. liebeler. did you know what his name was? mr. blalock. no, sir. mr. liebeler. now while you were there in the store, did you notice anybody else present? mr. blalock. well, a man from a moving company or some trucking company came in. he had a radio that needed to be fixed, a broken radio, and lee harvey oswald came in. mr. liebeler. tell us, to the best of your recollection, the things that happened as far as oswald was concerned. mr. blalock. he walked up to us and leaned against the desk and listened to the conversation. then he started asking questions about the organization, and we were talking about guerrilla warfare, just in case the country got in war how young students could help, something in that nature, and then he started--then oswald, lee harvey oswald, asked carlos bringuier all about the organization and what part it played in the main movement in florida. mr. liebeler. did they say anything else? was there more to the conversation? mr. blalock. let's see. mr. liebeler. did this man who walked up introduce himself by name? mr. blalock. i believe so, but i don't remember what name he gave. mr. liebeler. are you now convinced that he was lee harvey oswald? mr. blalock. yes, sir. i know his face. i recognized his face. mr. liebeler. but you don't remember that he mentioned the name lee harvey oswald at that time? mr. blalock. no. mr. liebeler. did oswald say anything about having been a marine? mr. blalock. yes, sir; he did, and he explained that he took training in guerrilla warfare, and he told us how to blow up bridges, derail trains, make zip guns, make homemade gunpowder. mr. liebeler. he told you about this in detail? mr. blalock. he told us how to blow up the huey p. long bridge. mr. liebeler. tell us just what he told you about that. i know you can't remember the exact words, but you can remember the substance of the conversation. we want you to tell us about it. mr. blalock. he told us to put powder charges at each end of the bridge from the foundation to where the foundation meets the suspension part, and to blow that part up and the center part of the bridge would collapse. mr. liebeler. did he talk about any other aspect of guerrilla warfare that you can remember? mr. blalock. he said that if you don't have the materials you need always available, you had to do without stuff. mr. liebeler. did he give any specific example of that? mr. blalock. gunpowder, high explosives. mr. liebeler. did he tell you how to do without gunpowder in these activities? mr. blalock. he told us how to derail a train without gunpowder. mr. liebeler. what did he say about that? mr. blalock. he said put a chain around the railroad track and lock it to the track with a lock. mr. liebeler. and then when the train hit the chain it would derail the train? mr. blalock. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. did he say that he knew how to make gunpowder? mr. blalock. yes, sir; he told us the formula, and i--saltpeter and nitrate--some formula--i don't remember. mr. liebeler. did he say anything about guns? mr. blalock. about zip guns, how to make them out of tubing and a plunger. mr. liebeler. did he say something to the effect that he knew all about guns? mr. blalock. no; he told us he had a manual that explained all about guns, a marine manual, and that he had training in guns, trained with guns. mr. liebeler. do you remember anything else that he said? mr. blalock. not right offhand. mr. liebeler. did he talk to bringuier about helping bringuier in this organization, or just what was the general context of this conversation? was this just a general discussion of guerrilla warfare, or did it relate to the activities of bringuier's anti-castro organization? what can you remember? mr. blalock. he just asked him about the anti-castro organization and asked him to explain it to him, and he said he was interested in finding out how it operated. he didn't say he wanted to join it: he just said he was interested in it. oh, and bringuier gave him literature, a cuban newspaper and leaflets or booklets. mr. liebeler. was there any discussion of politics? mr. blalock. not to my recollection. mr. liebeler. was there any mention of president kennedy? mr. blalock. no, sir. i couldn't say for sure there was no mention of president kennedy. i don't think there was. mr. liebeler. what did you think of oswald? mr. blalock. he seemed like a very intelligent man to me, well spoken, looked well dressed, well groomed. mr. liebeler. did you think anything else about him, or is that about it? mr. blalock. that is the impression that i got right at the moment. mr. liebeler. did he say anything about florida? mr. blalock. just mentioned the cuban anti-castro organization there. mr. liebeler. what did he say about that? mr. blalock. i don't remember exactly, but i think he said he had been there and he had looked into it. i couldn't say for sure on that. mr. liebeler. did he mention the name of the organization? mr. blalock. no, sir. no, i don't recall any name. mr. liebeler. do you remember being interviewed about this subject by an fbi agent? mr. blalock. yes, sir; i do, during the christmas holidays. mr. liebeler. do you remember his name? mr. blalock. no, sir; i don't. all i know is a lieutenant or something like that. mr. liebeler. do you think you would remember his name if i mentioned it to you? mr. blalock. i might, or my mother might. she was present. mr. liebeler. your mother was present when you were interviewed by the fbi? mr. blalock. yes. mr. liebeler. would it refresh your recollection if i told you that the report that i have of the interview that you had with the fbi agent indicates that the man's name was kevin j. herrigan? mr. blalock. herrigan? no. no; i don't remember that name. mr. liebeler. do you remember talking to the fbi agent about oswald's remark concerning having been to florida? mr. blalock. no, sir; i don't remember what i told the fbi agent. i don't remember anything about oswald saying--only that i think he said he had been there. mr. liebeler. well, the report that i have here says that you seemed to remember oswald mentioning something about having recently visited something called the casa nostra, c-a-s-a n-o-s-t-r-a. do you remember saying anything about that to the fbi man? mr. blalock. yes, sir; i remember mentioning the organization, but i couldn't remember the name. that organization was mentioned in the conversation with carlos bringuier and harvey oswald. mr. liebeler. it was? mr. blalock. i believe so. mr. liebeler. do you remember that it was oswald who mentioned it? mr. blalock. i don't remember which one mentioned it first. mr. liebeler. and it was mentioned as being a cuban organization in florida? is that your recollection? mr. blalock. yes, sir; i think that is the name they mentioned. it could be something similar. i know i got this mafia name mixed up with a cuban organization name. mr. liebeler. well, you know that that name that i just mentioned, casa nostra, is very similar to the cosa nostra. do you think you may have been confused at the time you talked with him? mr. blalock. well, i meant the cuban organization. i may have said the mafia, the cosa nostra. mr. liebeler. you may have used that name? mr. blalock. but i meant the cuban---- mr. liebeler. you meant some anti-castro cuban organization? mr. blalock. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. so the best you can recall, oswald didn't say that he had recently visited someone in the cosa nostra? mr. blalock. no, sir. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. but you do recall sort of vaguely that oswald did say that he had been in florida and he had visited an anti-castro cuban organization there? mr. blalock. yes, sir; i do. mr. liebeler. can you remember anything else about this incident in the store that day when oswald came in? mr. blalock. oh, he said he lived on magazine street. mr. liebeler. did he give his exact address to you? do you remember? mr. blalock. i don't believe he gave his exact address, but i couldn't say for sure. mr. liebeler. did he say anything about whether he was working or not, whether he had a job? mr. blalock. i don't remember if he said anything about his job. mr. liebeler. did he tell you anything about his background? did he say he was from new orleans or anything about that? mr. blalock. no, sir; i don't remember anything about that. mr. liebeler. can you think of anything else that happened? mr. blalock. philip geraci and i started following him home after we both left the store. oswald, philip and i both left the store about the same time. we started to follow oswald to his house just out of curiosity, and i recollect that oswald said he would give us his marine manual if we ever came back, if we contacted him. mr. liebeler. that he would give you the marine manual if you saw each other at the store again? mr. blalock. at the store or just saw each other, if we would contact him and get it, we could have it. if he saw us again, he would give it to us. mr. liebeler. how long did you continue to follow him home? did you just walk out and walk down the street with him, or did you sort of shadow him or---- mr. blalock. no, sir. we walked out the door. we both started different directions, and philip and i said, "why don't we follow him and get the marine manual now, nothing else to do." we started to go to the corner, and we didn't see him, so we went on our way. mr. liebeler. did you ever see the marine manual? mr. blalock. no, sir; i didn't. mr. liebeler. did you ever talk to mr. bringuier again after that? mr. blalock. no, sir. mr. liebeler. you never saw carlos again until just today---- mr. blalock. no, sir. mr. liebeler. when you saw him come out of this room and leave the building? mr. blalock. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. are you and philip good friends? mr. blalock. i wouldn't say real close friends, but we are friends. mr. liebeler. did you talk about this incident or talk about oswald at all after this time but prior to the assassination? mr. blalock. no, sir; i don't believe we did. we talked about the cuban student organization. mr. liebeler. were you aware of the fact that oswald was subsequently arrested here in new orleans in connection with his activity on behalf of the fair play for cuba committee? mr. blalock. no; i didn't know about that until after the assassination. mr. liebeler. you didn't hear oswald debate carlos on the radio program---- mr. blalock. no, sir. mr. liebeler. or you didn't see oswald on television? mr. blalock. no, sir. i might have. i just don't remember it. mr. liebeler. did philip say anything about having seen these things? mr. blalock. not to me he didn't. mr. liebeler. so you never had any real discussions, as far as you remember, with philip about oswald until the time of the assassination? is that correct? mr. blalock. that is correct. mr. liebeler. you must have talked to philip about oswald after the assassination. mr. blalock. yes. mr. liebeler. did you recall to each other and discuss with each other the meeting that you had with oswald in the store on decatur street at that time? mr. blalock. i think i was the one that recognized him. i called it to philip's attention, and the next day at school he said, "yes, that is the man we met at the store." i recognized oswald late one night when i was just about going to bed. i told my daddy, "i went uptown and met that man up there." mr. liebeler. this was shortly after the assassination? mr. blalock. yes; during the time they didn't have any shows but the funeral and---- mr. liebeler. [exhibiting photograph to witness.] let me show you a picture that has been marked as exhibit to the affidavit of jesse j. garner taken at new orleans, april , , and i ask you if you recognize the individual portrayed in that picture. mr. blalock. yes, sir; i recognize him. mr. liebeler. and do you recognize him as the man you met in the store that day? mr. blalock. yes, sir; lee harvey oswald. mr. liebeler. can you think of anything else now about your contact with oswald, or can you think of anything else that you know about him that i haven't asked you about and you think the commission should know about? mr. blalock. i can't think of anything else. mr. liebeler. i don't have any other questions. if you can't think of anything else, we will terminate the deposition. on behalf of the commission, i want to thank you very much. testimony of vincent t. lee the testimony of vincent t. lee was taken at : p.m., on april , , at the u.s. courthouse, foley square, new york, n.y., by messrs. j. lee rankin, general counsel, and wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. vincent t. lee was accompanied by his attorney, stanley faulkner. vincent t. lee, having duly affirmed, was examined and testified as follows: mr. rankin. mr. lee, this deposition is being taken by the commission under the authority of executive order no. and joint resolution of the congress no. . my name is j. lee rankin. i am general counsel for the commission. mr. liebeler is associated with me in this work. you have a right to have a copy of your testimony if you wish to pay for it and you may ask the reporters to make such arrangements. during the examination you have a right to have counsel, which you have here, and counsel may object to any of the questions. at the close of the examination by myself, if counsel wishes to ask you questions to clarify or make clear any particular part of your testimony or correct it, if you wish to call anything to his attention, why, he is free to do that. where do you live, mr. lee? mr. lee. - / st. mark's place, new york city. mr. rankin. you are entitled under the rules of the commission to days' notice, and i assume since you are here you are willing to waive that and go ahead with the deposition. mr. lee. yes. mr. rankin. do you have an official connection with the fair play for cuba committee? mr. lee. the fair play for cuba committee is no longer a functioning organization. mr. rankin. did you at one time have such a connection? mr. lee. yes; i did. mr. rankin. during what period? mr. lee. from the year of --yes, last year. mr. rankin. when was it closed up? mr. lee. officially the office went out of existence december . mr. rankin. in ? mr. lee. december . eviction notice was served and the office was closed. mr. rankin. did you have some communications with lee harvey oswald? mr. lee. yes; i did. mr. rankin. have you made a search of your files for all communications that you had with him? mr. lee. upon being communicated with by the federal agents, from the federal bureau of investigation, at their behest i made an exhausting search throughout the whole fair play offices for any and all communications which were there, and finding certain communications i turned them over to the federal agents, particularly federal agent kennedy, in early december . mr. rankin. when did you make that search? mr. lee. within a day or two after being contacted by the federal agents. mr. rankin. can you tell us the approximate date of that contact? mr. lee. i believe it was the first week of december. mr. rankin. ? mr. lee. , yes. i am not positive. i am pretty sure it was somewhere around that time. mr. rankin. was that search made by you personally? mr. lee. yes, sir. mr. rankin. was it a thorough and complete search? mr. lee. well, i went through every scrap of paper down to the last little scrap behind the desk and under radiators and in cabinets and in drawers and under desk blotters and every possible conceivable place any piece of paper might have been stored or fallen to and laid down or anything else. mr. rankin. so you are satisfied---- mr. lee. as far as i know i went through every--to the best of my knowledge i went through everything i could find and everything that i found i turned over to the agents afterwards, after having copies made. mr. rankin. did you or anybody on behalf of your committee have any oral communications with lee harvey oswald that you know of? mr. lee. to my knowledge there was never any such communication. i can't ever remember ever having such communication myself. i don't know that anybody else did. nobody that i have known has ever mentioned such a thing to me. (document marked lee exhibit no. .) mr. rankin. i hand you exhibit no. and ask you if that is a letter that you or your committee received from lee harvey oswald? mr. lee. this looks very much like such a letter, sir. mr. rankin. did you receive it near the date that it bears? mr. lee. there is not a date--it is not dated. this particular letter is not dated. evidently here on the bottom is a notation which is made. this letter requests that the organization send some literature which the organization had published and there is a notation on the bottom which says the material was sent. it says "sent / / ," which i assume was quite some time ago. i can remember when people wrote in, we had many, many communications from many parts of the country, and when they asked for something we would send it to them and we would mark the thing "sent so and so," so we would know the communication had been answered and what had been done about it. mr. rankin. do you know whether that notation "sent / / " and also the circling of the " " was done by you? mr. lee. this is doubtful because at that time, let's see, at that time i was not in the new york office. i was out on a national tour, i believe i was on the west coast at that time. we have had other people coming in to volunteer to, you know, wrap packages and address envelopes and things like that, come in for an hour or two, and go on about their business, whatever it is, and evidently somebody else did this because at that time i was on the west coast. mr. rankin. would you be able to tell whether or not the letter, exhibit , was dated or sent to you, rather than dated, somewhere around the time that this "sent" recording was made? mr. lee. i have absolutely no reason to believe otherwise. i believe there might have been an envelope which--some of the letters had envelopes. i don't know whether this particular one did or not. i think this is one of the first communications we would have, and it goes back to the end of april , and to the best of my knowledge all my experience has been that these things, just so much of this was done; it was an automatic thing that was sent or replied, a certain date, which meant within that period of time, a week or so, sometimes it was slow, sometimes it was done the same day, sometimes it was done, you know, several days later, but within a week, around that area i would imagine is when that thing was replied. (lee exhibits nos. to marked.) mr. rankin. mr. lee, in accordance with the practice on these exhibits, when these exhibits are examined, the counsel doing the examining initials them, and also the witness. would you be kind enough to do it under my initials. mr. lee. well, i would like to know what my--i would like to understand what my signature would imply. mr. rankin. it only implies that this exhibit was presented to you at the time, so there won't be any question about it. mr. lee. yes. where should i initial it? mr. rankin. just under mine, so it doesn't show anything except that fact. (witness complies.) mr. rankin. do you have any independent recollection, mr. lee, of this exhibit coming to your own attention at any time, other than when you went to search the files and find out what you had? mr. lee. no; i don't have. mr. rankin. i hand you exhibit and ask you to examine that and see if you recall if your committee or you received it on or about or near the date that it bears. mr. lee. this looks precisely like such a communication received. mr. rankin. you will notice that it bears the date may at the top. mr. lee. yes; and i have every reason to believe that it would be an accurate---- mr. rankin. and you are quite sure that you received exhibit before you received exhibit ? mr. lee. well, like i say, you see, this one here was, i believe--i believe this probably arrived--i have every reason to believe that this arrived particularly during the weeks that i was away from the office, before this one. mr. rankin. this one---- mr. lee. and in piecing the thing together to the best of my own knowledge over a period of time like this and by using this to jog my recollection, this one here would have come to my attention after this one. mr. rankin. when you say this one here---- mr. lee. this one dated--exhibit no. , dated may , yes. mr. rankin. came to you after exhibit no. ? mr. lee. yes. mr. rankin. did you do anything about the information that was in exhibit no. ? mr. lee. well, i cannot be sure what i did, because i have no--i never bothered to keep records on these details. mr. rankin. i see. mr. lee. but i had a general policy which i pursued, when somebody addressed a communication which i received, i would write to them, trying to present them with the information they requested or the material which they requested in whatever way i thought best at the time for the particular case, whatever it was. like i said, not having saved--not having made any copies of any of these things, i can't be sure of what i did. i really don't know what i would have said, but i always made it a policy to try and reply to these communications. mr. rankin. mr. lee, i hand you exhibit no. , which purports to be a photocopy of a purported reply that you have made to lee harvey oswald's letter of may , exhibit no. , purporting to be a letter of may . do you recall having sent that? mr. lee. yes. it's dated may . mr. rankin. yes. mr. lee. this is a copy--this must be a copy of a letter--this looks like my signature here, and i don't actually recall this--did i miss something?--oh, i see. i don't actually recall writing the letter, but it looks like something which i might have written at the time in response to the previous inquiry. mr. rankin. yes. mr. lee. but i can't say that i remember sitting down and writing it. mr. rankin. we will try to secure the original and submit it to you for your approval in substitution for this copy. mr. lee. well, i am not actually questioning it. i am saying i can't really remember. actually, i have thought about this. i haven't a real recollection of sitting down and writing, you know, letters to that particular person. like i said, i was answering as many communications myself as possible to many, many inquiries which came into the office, so it is hard for me to pick out such and such a person a year later, even if something had happened in between to make the name prominent, to go back then. the name wouldn't mean too much to me at that time that i had written. mr. rankin. and when you referred to his getting a post office box as a must, what did you mean by that? mr. lee. well, this is a recommendation which was made, an organizational recommendation which had been made a long time before i myself had gone into a position with the organization. because of the nature of the organization, people would come and go. they would support it and then drop out, and sometimes they would move, and if somebody--naturally most of the thing was just a small, little local activity. people didn't maintain business offices for such an organization, and if a person would move or drop out of the organization and the activities, the communications between the national office and the local area would get all tangled up because we didn't know where the mail would be returned, where we would write, whereas if there was a post office box, if one person in the organization dropped out who was receiving mail, then the mail would still be delivered to a post office box, where the other officials of the chapter, if it still existed, would still have access to the mail and be able to reply to communications from the national organization concerning the activities of the organization. the purpose of the post office box was purely to facilitate communications between areas and maintain them on a permanent basis. mr. rankin. i hand you exhibit -a and see if you recall seeing the original of which that appears to be a photocopy. it is dated may , . mr. lee. it looks very much like a formal notice that i may have sent. i mean, i was accustomed to sending many such communications, and that looks very much like something i would have sent. did i sign the other one? mr. rankin. no. i hand you exhibit no. , which i don't find to be dated, either, but it does show an address in new orleans which helps to make it possible for us to fix the general period. do you recall having seen that before? mr. lee. yes. this was another one of the communications which were sent to me. obviously, not through recollection of having seen the letters but piecing these things together, i conclude that this was one of the letters which were sent after i had entered into direct communications with this person, because he no longer addresses it "dear sirs." evidently he has received communications from us, so he addresses us by name. i would say that evidently that was a communication sent to me which i received. mr. rankin. you will note it has four pages as a part of the letter and has a membership blank for---- mr. lee. yes. my recollection on this is that in previous letters--for a moment i would like to go over this and make sure i don't get the letters confused one with the other. this--yes, yes. this evidently is a letter which was sent in reply, after i had--he had in one letter asked for information about the possibilities of doing--setting up a chapter, for which i had sent him the rules and regulations regarding the functioning of our organization and copies of our constitution and bylaws and things like that. this evidently is a letter which he wrote in which he replies that he had gone ahead and acted on his own without any authorization from the organization, and if i recall correctly this was also a letter which was received by myself in my capacity, not having any great happiness at somebody going off on their own and doing something against the rules of the organization, under the name of the organization, which is obviously what was done, because this set up himself--this thing reads, "new orleans chapter, member branch." there was no such thing, because he had just received--just previous to this he had received the regulations, and my letter would give an indication of what would be necessary to set up a chapter, which would certainly consist of more than one person operating on his own, and this, if i recall correctly, was such a letter which i received. naturally, anybody in an organization position such as i was in any other organization, you would always be interested in expanding and getting your ideas across and reaching more people, and when somebody writes to you and says they would like to help you, your immediate response is, "well, wonderful. here is a new contact in a new part of the hinterlands and, gee, i hope this works out." and then, when somebody goes off like this, violating all the rules that you send him, it comes as quite a disappointment, because you have had hopes. obviously this man was not operating in an official capacity for the organization. as he states, he went off with his own innovations and everything else. mr. rankin. you will note that he refers in the letter to this throw sheet. mr. lee. yes. mr. rankin. and the fact that he has established a charter in violation of your instructions. mr. lee. yes. i certainly do. mr. rankin. and then he also refers to his membership blank. mr. lee. yes, which is another complete violation. it has no---- mr. rankin. apparently both of those were enclosed with a letter, were they? mr. lee. evidently, yes. to the best of my recollection, they would be. as i say, all of these details--i can't be positive of every little thing, because it's been such a time and so much has transpired in between. mr. rankin. exhibit no. is apparently a letter of august from lee harvey oswald. do you recall that? mr. lee. there was a couple of letters here. i don't know whether it was these two, exhibits and , but it's hard for me to determine, they came so close together. they came, you know, almost on top of each other, to the best of my recollection, that i don't know which one--only by studying the text can you halfway determine which came first. i remember vaguely receiving these communications in this order. you see here, another case where i mentioned, and i would recommend not trying to get an office to start off with, particularly the--what was being espoused by our organization wouldn't be the most popular thing in the area of new orleans, louisiana, and i would automatically, myself, personally, from my own experience, would say to anybody, "you know, you better be way ahead before you start something like that," and certainly he has gone ahead against all of that recommendation from everybody else. but to the best of my recollection, these letters were very close together, about the same time, the same issue. mr. rankin. that was one of the letters, exhibit no. , that you supplied the fbi at the time? mr. lee. yes. (document marked lee exhibit no. .) mr. rankin. your exhibit no. , which apparently is composed of a letter and an affidavit in regard to a charge against lee harvey oswald, and a clipping in regard to the disposition of that charge, do you recall that correspondence and the attachments? mr. lee. yes, i have a recollection of this. i don't think the clipping--as a matter of fact, i seem to remember that this clipping was not attached to a piece of paper, though. i think this may have been attached since i submitted it. that is the only difference i can see. mr. rankin. apparently since you furnished the letter, exhibit , and the copy of the charge against lee harvey oswald and the clipping, the clipping has been stapled to a piece of paper? mr. lee. yes. the reason i say that is simply because i never paper-clip things; i always rubber cement them. (document marked lee exhibit no. .) mr. rankin. i hand you exhibit , which consists of two pages of a letter dated august , and an envelope attached by a clip, and ask you if that exhibit in that form was one you received from lee harvey oswald and furnished to the bureau as you described? mr. lee. i believe so; yes. mr. rankin. throughout this period of time you had no oral or personal telephone conversations with lee harvey oswald, did you? mr. lee. to the best of my knowledge, to the very best of my knowledge, i can't ever remember speaking to this person. the only communications i can recall or having heard of him was through these series of letters, and i have subsequently seen photographs, and as a matter of fact i was another one of the millions of tv witnesses, and i don't recall ever having seen the man or having heard his voice. the only thing i ever had at all, that i can ever remember, are purely these communications. he is a complete stranger to me outside of this, and even within the framework of this he wasn't very much more than a stranger. (documents marked lee exhibits nos. a through c.) mr. rankin. i hand you exhibits a, b and c, respectively, which appear to be change of address cards. mr. lee. yes, these are post office cards. i have a recollection of receiving these. of course we always got scads of these too, but this was a very normal thing. usually people send these in with changes of address, people who subscribe to our publications and things. do you want me to initial those? mr. rankin. would you initial those? (witness complies.) (document marked lee exhibit no. .) mr. rankin. i hand you exhibit and ask you if you recall having seen that before? mr. lee. it seems like there should be a letter to go with it. i believe that each of the things that i turned in, where it was available, there was an envelope with the letter. i don't recall that i turned in any isolated envelope that wasn't with a letter. mr. faulkner. this has a postmark, new orleans, aug. . mr. rankin. i might ask you, mr. lee, if that envelope, exhibit , might be connected with the exhibit . mr. lee. well, now, it's possible. the letter is dated august , and the thing is postmarked pm, august . i assume--it looks very much like it would fit in there, the envelope and paper match up, and there is no difference in the ink, the pen used, from what i can see. i do remember specifically that when i turned over the material to the federal agents i did--i don't recall at any time having a loose envelope, it was with one of the letters. mr. rankin. it is apparently closer to any of the letters timewise. mr. lee. it is very likely that it goes with this letter, and from my own experience there is a date discrepancy of a couple of days there, but i have carried a letter around in my pocket for a couple of days, too, and i can very well assume that somebody else would do the same. mr. rankin. on the back of exhibit there is a penciled number. does that have anything to do with your organization? mr. lee. i haven't the faintest idea what this thing is, sir. there is one on here too. i have never seen this before. it is certainly not my hand on these things, and i very much--in fact i am pretty positive that this material has been added to these letters since i turned these things into the federal agents. it is probably a filing code number or something or other used by the federal agents. mr. rankin. the fbi, yes. mr. lee. it is not in my hand, and it certainly doesn't look like--in fact i remember when i made copies of these things i was looking at both sides of the papers to make sure that i had a complete copy when i made the copy of these letters for my own personal file on the issue, and these things were not on. i am sure that these things were not on them when i turned them in. mr. rankin. by "these things" you mean those pencil marks on the back? mr. lee. the penciled digits on the back of the letters. mr. rankin. such as on exhibit that i just referred you to, the mark " - - "? mr. lee. yes, those things must have been added after i turned them in. mr. rankin. mr. lee, i asked you about the circling of the figure and the notation "sent / / " on exhibit . as i recall, you said you were out traveling over the country at that time, and you knew you were not in the office so as to send that literature. do you have any idea what copies were sent? mr. lee. well, this is back in april of , and he asks, i quote, "i now ask for or ," and the circle is around , and this, the normal procedure had always been to note it. when the circle was made around the , i just assume, and i very much believe, that it was items that were sent. now, we have printed various leaflets, and this is what was sent, these leaflets, such as, you know, calling for the end of hostile relations, and so forth, between the government of the united states and the government of cuba, which we used for distribution at various public affairs and public places. mr. rankin. we had information from the bureau that you had said that notation was by you and that you sent the material. is that incorrect? mr. lee. well, i can't see how it could possibly be when i wasn't in the area at the time. the th of april i was somewhere on the west coast, i was somewhere between los angeles and seattle, washington. i arrived on the west coast, i believe, on april the st or d of , and i didn't return until the first week of may of , and the last point of departure to new york was from, i believe, the city of chicago. i was out on the west coast and the west and midwest during that period of time, and i wasn't there. now, i assume that at some point along the line in my communications i had sent this gentleman some material, which we always had in stock. this was part of our activity, to print up leaflets and pamphlets and translations of various things and provide them to the general public. but this particular item, assuming that all these dates are correct, i can't possibly have sent it. but the point is that i would authorize--to me it was a standard policy that if anybody asked for anything that we had, we would give it to them, and that is the best i can say. but as for myself, at that particular date, i was not in the new york area. i was very far away at that particular time. in fact i was definitely on the west coast of the united states at that time. mr. rankin. so if they recorded that you said that, there was some error? mr. lee. there was an error somewhere. maybe they got confused in the conversation over maybe something else, some other communication that i mentioned, that i had felt that i had replied to, communications, and sent him stuff like the constitution and bylaws. maybe that might have got confused. mr. rankin. was there any connection with you or your organization or anyone from your organization that you know of with the acts of lee harvey oswald in connection with the assassination of the president? mr. lee. with myself or organizationally, to the best of my knowledge, no; nor have i heard or know of any other person related to the organization in any way. definitely there would be no connection between the act--acts of lee harvey oswald. whether or not he did anything in relation to the assassination, i don't know. as i understood, this is what is trying to be determined, and so forth, with this hearing. but whether he did or did not in relation, we had no--nothing to do with this. in fact i would feel very free to say that this particular act by anybody would be the worst possible thing that we could conceive of. our idea was certainly not to engage in any activities of violence or illegal actions of any kind. we try very much to maintain a character of nonviolent participation in community affairs. in fact we have organizationally held, in which i directed and participated, demonstrations in which we made a very firm commitment to peaceful assembly and demonstration, and even when attacked physically did not respond to the attack but withheld and conducted ourselves peacefully and legally. mr. rankin. was lee harvey oswald a member of your organization? mr. lee. i have no record of this. you see, we never kept a membership file. we never at any time maintained a membership file. if somebody asked to join the organization, we made out a membership card for them and the card was sent to the person, but there was no duplicate and there was no special recording of it; it was just a simple formality, and we just sent them the card. and so there is no way that i can tell for sure that he was or he wasn't, because we never did maintain a file in this direction. mr. rankin. do you recall anything about his being a member, as far as your recollection? mr. lee. i am not sure on that score. i mean i don't know. it is entirely possible. it is entirely possible. but i can't say that i recall, you know, filling out a card for him. it is entirely possible. i may very well have. but as far as saying absolutely i remember, no, i don't, i can't say that, because i really don't remember, but i will say it is entirely possible. in fact i would assume from the communications--i would assume from the communications which were conducted with this gentleman that it is very likely that he asked to join, and our membership was the type of thing where it was open to anybody who asked to become a member, was given membership. we had no restrictions on membership. in fact we had one of the policy statements of the organization, its constitution and bylaws, was that it was open to all regardless of race, creed, color, religion, national origin or political opinion. it was open to anybody, anybody at all could join, and from the communications, since i was writing to him in connection with--he was asking if he could start a chapter, well, i can't conceive of my writing to a nonmember in the direction of starting a chapter. it is very--i assume that he must have at some point along the line asked to join as a member and met the simple requirements of sending in a membership fee, which was really a subscription to any of our publications, and i assume that he must have been, otherwise i can't quite conceive of my having written to him about membership, starting a chapter, replying to such a question without having--the letters--evidently there would have been some communication saying, well, "you can't do it unless you join," and from the letters you showed me, which i assume are correct, he must have already at some point in the communications decided to join the organization. mr. rankin. i call your attention to the first paragraph, mr. lee, of exhibit no. . mr. lee. oh, yes; sure, here it is, "i am requesting formal membership in your organizations." well, evidently at this point, at the end of may, , he requested formal--i don't--let's see, is there a note in here of having sent him--well, anyhow, assuming that accompanying this letter there was---- mr. rankin. let me call your attention to exhibit , and there is in the first paragraph there---- mr. lee. oh, yes; evidently he did join, yes. i assumed that it was so, because i can't conceive of having written him about a chapter unless he had joined. one doesn't organizationally ask people to help the organization who are not members. mr. rankin. do you know of any combination, conspiracy or common action of any kind that worked with lee harvey oswald in connection with his acts concerning the assassination of president kennedy? mr. lee. i have no knowledge of any such thing. mr. rankin. do you know of any members of fair play for cuba committee in new orleans that were working with lee harvey oswald in connection with anything he did there for the committee? mr. lee. no; i have no recollection of any such thing. in fact all i can recall is that the man communicated i think to me that somehow in these letters that he had nobody and that he was completely alone, and that in fact i think one of the letters mentioned how he was out somewhere all alone and that he had no--nobody at all, nobody working with him or through him or for him or around him or anything else. he gave me the impression that he was completely isolated in his community, which became obvious to me from his actions which would certainly isolate him in his community. i could see very well how he would be. mr. rankin. i call your attention to exhibit and the paragraph in which he says he was working with three people in the demonstration. he doesn't purport to say they are members. mr. lee. demonstration of three. i wonder if he was one of the three, or who it was. somewhere in some of these letters, i don't know where--i could check back--i got the indication that he had no support and that he was completely isolated. now, what this business of the three people is, i have no idea. he doesn't seem to mention anything more about this, and i don't even know whether he was one of the three or whether there were three besides him or what. mr. rankin. i call your attention to exhibit , in which he refers to the fact that he was attacked during one of the demonstrations, and then the following page of that exhibit , that robbed him of any associates. mr. lee. "... the support i had, leaving me alone." yes, i guess this is what i had in mind, "this incident robbed me of what support i had, leaving me alone." now, what support he had, i don't know. if i recall correctly, at this incident which he mentions here, he had sent me the things from his court, the arrest things, and the only people that are mentioned in that are oswald and the people who he claims attacked him, and that is the only people, evidently, according to the court records and the police, you know, who the police brought charges on. there didn't seem to be anybody involved but this lee harvey oswald and the cuban exiles who he became involved in a fracas with down there. so i don't know how much validity--i really don't know how much validity there is in these other people existing, whether they did or not. mr. rankin. do you know of any members of the fair play for cuba committee in dallas? mr. lee. as i said, i never kept a membership file and i don't recall who is a member and who wouldn't be a member. i know we received many communications requesting literature of various types and things like that from all over the country, and i don't know of any state of the union which has not been sent some material at some time during the - / -year history of the organization. i would assume that somewhere, at some time, in texas some people wrote in and received something, some communication, but as far as doing anything particularly about dallas, no. the only thing i know about dallas is what i read in the papers, which doesn't tell me too much. mr. rankin. and that same situation about whether there were any members of the committee in new orleans would be true, would it? mr. lee. well, it is like i say. as for membership, this is an almost impossible situation in view of the fact that we didn't conduct a membership file or a duplicate membership card system and we just had mailing lists. in fact the mailing lists--even the mailing lists wouldn't tell very much, if anything, and that was just a case, anybody who thought somebody should receive a communication gave the name of somebody, in fact for now deceased governor lehman was on that list, senators and congressmen were placed on the mailing list, everybody and his brother who we thought should be--well, we thought some reason should receive the material which we sent out, we just sent material. it could be anybody. and like i say, stuff went to all over the country, just automatically, just did large mailings to every place we could think of, dream of or hope for in any of our activities of mailing. but as far as particularly--there was never an active organization of the committee in these areas. we have had in the past--there was in existence in the committee a series of chapters, committee chapters, in various parts of the country, but there were never any chapters or active participation on a local level, to my knowledge, in either texas or louisiana at any time during the entire history of the organization. mr. rankin. is there any information, evidence or knowledge that you haven't given us that would bear upon this assassination of president kennedy, that might help the commission? mr. lee. no, sir; i have no information whatsoever. i have more than personal, more than just curiosity, and i hope very much to know the truth about this incident and hope very much that the truth is known, particularly for my own personal reasons, as well as any other reasons, because having been practically a victim of very serious slander in this direction, both by individuals and by elements of the press and various periodicals, i have very serious concern about developing the truth. i have been threatened. people have tried to break into my home, somehow connecting myself and my organizational activities, quite falsely, with the assassination--i would like to see the truth come up, because i am quite sure that any investigation will show that this was not true, that i didn't have any part of this. i am as much interested and probably more interested in my own way in having the facts presented than many of the average people on the street. i have a personal involvement in this. mr. rankin. that is all. mr. faulkner, do you have anything? mr. faulkner. i was just going to ask mr. lee one question with regard to exhibit no. , where the date in the lower right-hand corner appears reading, "sent / / " in his handwriting. mr. lee. well, you see, the thing is, i don't think it is, because i don't see how i could have written that if i wasn't there. that's the whole thing. but it could be--like i said, that office was an open door. everybody used to come and go, and people would come in and say, "i've got twenty minutes"--a kid from school, some kid would come in and say, "i've got minutes between classes. can i do something to help you?" and somebody would say, "yes, wrap that package", and they would be off minutes later. so it could be anybody in the world. or perhaps the only possibility is when i returned, perhaps somebody mentioned that it was taken care of, and i wrote it after my return. but certainly not at that time, because i wasn't even present. mr. rankin. is it satisfactory, mr. lee, if we finally obtain the originals from the bureau and send them to you of these exhibits and -a, which purport to be copies or photocopies of your correspondence, and on your verification substitute those for those copies? mr. faulkner. if---- mr. lee. if you find it's necessary. actually, as i say, i would assume these very much--i mean, this looks very much like what i would expect a duplicate, a duplication of the stationery which i used to look like. i mean, just, you know, like i say, i assume---- mr. faulkner. we would be satisfied. mr. lee. (continuing.) i would be satisfied to make this---- mr. faulkner. if you are satisfied when you see the original, compare it with this, and if you are satisfied that they correspond, there is no reason to call mr. lee. mr. lee. no; i am quite agreeable to verification. mr. rankin. fine. thank you very much. testimony of arnold samuel johnson the testimony of arnold samuel johnson was taken at : a.m., on april , , at the u.s. courthouse, foley square, new york, n.y., by messrs. j. lee rankin, general counsel, and wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. arnold samuel johnson was accompanied by his attorney, john j. abt. arnold samuel johnson, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: mr. rankin. will you give the reporter your name and address. mr. johnson. arnold samuel johnson. my home address is seventh avenue, new york city. mr. rankin. mr. johnson, my name is j. lee rankin. i am general counsel for the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy. we are here to take your testimony with regard to that matter, and we have certain rules and procedures that the commission has set up to be followed in connection with the hearings and testimony that is taken for the consideration of the commission. mr. liebeler is here as my assistant, and he is one of the several counsel of the commission. the commission acts in accordance with an executive order of president johnson, no. , and a joint resolution of the congress no. . under the rules you have a right to a -day notice of this examination. i understand you are appearing voluntarily and do not require that? mr. johnson. that is right. mr. rankin. you are also entitled to have counsel, and i understand mr. abt is acting as your counsel in connection with this proceeding. mr. johnson. correct. mr. rankin. you also have a right to have a copy of the testimony made available to you. however, it is at your own expense. we just tell the reporter that you can get it if you pay for it. your counsel has a right to make objections during the proceedings and also at the close of the examination on behalf of the commission to ask you such questions as he may care to, that may clarify anything that you say that he thinks either you desire to have clarified or he thinks in his good judgment should be either clarified or elaborated upon or require further questions from him to make clear what he thinks your testimony is. are there any questions which you have in regard to it? mr. johnson. perfectly all right. mr. rankin. mr. johnson, can you identify for us the position you occupied at the time you received some communications from lee harvey oswald? mr. johnson. yes; i was the director of the information and lecture bureau of the communist party. mr. rankin. i may ask you some questions trying to cover things which i ordinarily would, and you wait for your counsel. is it possible for you to tell us whether you continue to occupy that position now? is that any problem? mr. abt. i think not. i think there is no problem. mr. johnson. no problem. mr. rankin. and you do? mr. johnson. i do. mr. rankin. do you have anything to do with the subscription list of the worker? mr. johnson. immediately, i do not. mr. rankin. would you know, then, whether lee harvey oswald was a subscriber to the worker, of your own knowledge? mr. abt. just say of your own knowledge, whether you actually know it or don't. mr. johnson. i mean, not of my own knowledge; no. that's the point, i would say. mr. rankin. did the fact that he was a subscriber come to your attention at some time, through hearsay or otherwise? mr. johnson. through hearsay only. mr. rankin. was that from him or someone else? mr. johnson. from him in one of the letters. mr. rankin. did you supply some correspondence that you had with lee harvey oswald to someone in connection with the consideration of the assassination of president kennedy? mr. johnson. yes; i supplied all of it. mr. rankin. about when was that that you did supply that information? mr. johnson. in the first week of december. mr. rankin. what year? mr. johnson. . mr. rankin. how did you happen to supply that information? mr. johnson. well, i supplied it in the office of john abt to the representative of the fbi at the time, in the presence of my attorney, john abt, and it was supplied to the fbi agent who came, and i assume was conducting the investigation on behalf of the commission at the time. mr. rankin. now, before you supplied that material to this fbi agent, did you make any search of files to determine what information, correspondence or records you had in regard to lee harvey oswald? mr. johnson. oh, yes. very extensive. we went through every bit of the office. mr. rankin. did you do that yourself or have it done under your supervision and direction? mr. johnson. i did it myself. mr. rankin. how large a search was that? i would like to establish how complete, if i can. mr. johnson. i will admit the files are not exactly in an organized fashion. it's--it was material in which there were a lot of other letters and things like that. so i went through these files several times. mr. rankin. yourself? mr. johnson. all the files, back and forth. mr. rankin. you did that yourself? mr. johnson. yes. mr. rankin. and those were all the files that you could find that might show any correspondence between---- mr. johnson. oh, yes. mr. rankin. the communist party and mr. lee harvey oswald? mr. johnson. yes; that would be the complete file, everything, all the correspondence. mr. rankin. about when did you make this search? mr. johnson. frankly, i started right after the assassination was announced. as soon as that name appeared, i started to make a search. mr. rankin. why did you do this? mr. johnson. somehow the name struck my memory. mr. rankin. why did you supply the information to the fbi agent that was investigating? mr. johnson. oh, because i felt dutybound to cooperate in the full with the government in any investigation of this assassination. mr. rankin. do you know whether or not lee harvey oswald was ever a member of the communist party of the united states of america? mr. johnson. to my knowledge, he was never such, and i would know. mr. rankin. you think you would know? mr. johnson. oh, yes; i would, i am sure. mr. rankin. i hand you an exhibit that has been marked---- mr. liebeler. exhibit no. on the examination of arnold johnson, april , . it has been our practice for the examining attorney and for the witness to initial the exhibit for purposes of identification so there is no confusion. mr. rankin. mr. johnson, would you be kind enough to initial the exhibit under my initials so we both certify one of the exhibits offered. mr. johnson. yes (witness complies). (document marked johnson exhibit no. .) mr. rankin. will you examine that exhibit no. on your examination and determine whether you have seen that before? mr. johnson. yes; i have. mr. rankin. about when did you receive it? mr. johnson. in late june or early july--i believe june--of . mr. rankin. where did you receive it? mr. johnson. in my office. mr. rankin. is it in substantially the same form that it was when you received it, except for some notations by you on it? mr. johnson. yes. mr. rankin. you recognize that there are some notations by you on that exhibit ? mr. johnson. yes; there are. mr. rankin. will you tell us about those, please? mr. johnson. the notations are "send catalog and limited supply." mr. rankin. what does that mean? mr. johnson. that is in reference to a request for literature, and i stated to send a limited supply, i mean, which means usually a copy of one, a single copy of several pieces at the particular time. mr. rankin. i see. and what does the catalog reference mean? mr. johnson. the catalog is a---- mr. rankin. a listing of your supplies and literature? mr. johnson. it is a listing of literature, which is a rather old catalog, to tell the truth about it, of the international publishers, which usually is included in--which includes many other pieces of literature that if the person was interested they could purchase. mr. rankin. will you explain the other notation? mr. johnson. the other notation is "lit sent," which means that the literature was sent. mr. rankin. that notation was made by you too? mr. johnson. that is my writing too. mr. rankin. and the double line? mr. johnson. this double line refers to this particular point of literature, and i made that double line. that is all. mr. rankin. does this exhibit , as you received it, consist of two handwritten pages apparently written by lee harvey oswald on or before the date they bear, together with a single printed sheet about "hands off cuba"? mr. johnson. yes. in the letter he refers to the leaflet "like the one enclosed," and that accompanied the letter. it is also true on the leaflet he refers to the term "free literature." mr. rankin. do you have any recollection of just what literature you sent? mr. johnson. at the time when i turned this over i included copies of what i would assume would have been the literature at the time. mr. rankin. that is when you turned it over to the fbi? mr. johnson. yes; i turned over copies of the literature at the same time. that would be the normal thing for that particular period. i think i could think through carefully---- mr. rankin. would that be four or five pieces? mr. johnson. possibly more than that; about seven or eight. mr. rankin. could you briefly describe about what they were for the record? mr. johnson. well, they would be those pieces of literature which somehow state what was being distributed around that time from our offices, and i know it included a pamphlet "end the cold war" by gus hall; it included a pamphlet on the mccarran act. i think it would have included at that time another pamphlet on "peaceful co-existence." then the pamphlet that we usually sent by elizabeth flynn, something of the history of the communist party, "horizons of the future." i am guessing now, to tell the truth about it, from here on. mr. rankin. do you recall the reference in this exhibit to honorary membership cards in the fair play for cuba? mr. johnson. i know the reference is there; yes. mr. rankin. do you recall whether or not the cards were enclosed or not? mr. johnson. i really don't remember that. mr. rankin. did you ever have any oral communications with lee harvey oswald? mr. johnson. none whatsoever. mr. rankin. did you ever have any oral communications with anybody on his behalf? mr. johnson. none whatsoever. mr. rankin. do you recall doing anything about the honorary membership cards, giving them to mr. hall and mr. davis, or anything like that? mr. johnson. no. that is where i don't really recall about them. if i would have done that, then i am sure that i would have remembered it. mr. rankin. do you recall doing anything else about the letter, exhibit , and the printed sheet attached to it beyond what you have described? mr. johnson. i replied to it. (document marked johnson exhibit no. .) mr. rankin. i hand you exhibit no. on your examination and ask you if you will identify that by stating whether or not you have seen that copy and the original of that copy at some time. mr. johnson. yes. this is my reply to the letter we have just been discussing. mr. rankin. did you prepare that reply? mr. johnson. i did. mr. rankin. did you send it on or about the date it bears to mr. oswald? mr. johnson. yes; i did. mr. rankin. would you kindly initial it. (witness complies.) mr. rankin. thank you. what did you mean in exhibit by the statement that "we do not have any organizational ties with the committee"? mr. johnson. that is in reference to the fair play for cuba committee. mr. rankin. yes. mr. johnson. and there are no organizational ties between the communist party and the fair play for cuba committee; and since he was writing on that subject, i wanted to make it clear that there is no such relationship existing, so that literature that was being sent was not being sent from the viewpoint of the fair play for cuba committee as such, or anything like that. mr. rankin. by "organizational ties" did you mean to distinguish between that kind of a tie and some other kind of a tie; is that what you were trying to do? mr. johnson. in the sense--well, in this sense, that while not being responsible for what that committee may do, if there were activities being done by a committee which would have our sympathy, well, there would be that kind of relationship; but that is not any--not where we would assume responsibility for it, nor could we indicate what its policy would be, or anything like that. mr. rankin. you are trying to distinguish between some official relationship and mere sympathy? mr. johnson. that is correct. mr. rankin. is that it? you did recognize a sympathy or desire to encourage the fair play for cuba committee, i take it, then? mr. johnson. that and other similar committees, whatever they may be, but not exclusively that. (document marked johnson exhibit no. .) mr. rankin. i hand you exhibit no. and ask you if you recall having received that from lee harvey oswald? mr. johnson. yes; i do. mr. rankin. is that one of the letters that you delivered to the fbi at the time you described? mr. johnson. that is. mr. rankin. did you receive it on or about the date it bears? mr. johnson. i think so. i mean within those days; not on the day but afterward. mr. rankin. do you recall receiving the honorary membership card of esteem that he says he is sending to you? mr. johnson. somehow i do not; at least i never kept it, and it wasn't attached to the letter at all when i found it in the files, or anything like that. i do not recall that. mr. rankin. will you kindly initial exhibit too, please. (witness complies.) mr. rankin. there is a reference in the second paragraph of exhibit no. to a clipping. do you recall that at all? mr. johnson. i recall a clipping that had something to do with either a distribution of literature or a--and i think that was it. i am not too sure whether it also had something about an arrest or some altercation that he had been in. i did not keep it. i did not regard it as of any particular significance. mr. rankin. do you recall destroying it or do you know what happened to the clipping? mr. johnson. well, things like that i would just very likely throw in the wastebasket; that's all. mr. rankin. do you recall whether or not you responded to the exhibit no. ? mr. johnson. i responded to that together with other letters. mr. rankin. at some later date? mr. johnson. at a later date. mr. rankin. there is a request in exhibit for additional information or literature. do you recall whether you sent any additional---- mr. johnson. i don't recall exactly, but i would rather imagine not, and for a very simple reason: if i would have, i would have made a notation on here, "literature sent." mr. rankin. i see. i hand you what has been marked johnson exhibit no. and ask you if you recall receiving that. mr. johnson. yes; i do. mr. rankin. about when compared with the date it bears? do you remember? mr. johnson. within just a few days after that. mr. rankin. will you please initial that below my initials. (witness complies.) mr. rankin. is exhibit in the same condition as it was when you received it, except the notations on it that---- mr. johnson. yes; it is. mr. rankin. is it one of the papers that you supplied the fbi at the time that you referred to? mr. johnson. that is correct. mr. rankin. and does it consist of three pages, handwritten? mr. johnson. right. three full pages; yes. mr. rankin. it is dated august , ; is that correct? mr. johnson. that's right. mr. rankin. now, will you tell us about the notations that you put on exhibit ? describe first each one as you tell about it. mr. johnson. the notations that i put on? mr. rankin. yes. mr. johnson. this one, "fair play is a broader comm." i put that simply as a point to be emphasized in my reply. the two lines on page ---- mr. rankin. the top of the page? mr. johnson. at the top of the page--as a point to consider in making my reply. those are the only notations that i've got on it. mr. rankin. now, there is another notation in ink, "arnold, please reply," with the capital letter e, apparently. mr. johnson. yes. mr. rankin. do you know who put that on? mr. johnson. yes. mr. rankin. will you tell us? mr. johnson. elizabeth gurley flynn. mr. rankin. who is she? mr. abt. mr. rankin, i have advised mr. johnson respectfully to decline to give any further information on this subject. mr. rankin. will you tell us what you meant by that notation, that is, "broader comm."? mr. johnson. that the fair play for cuba committee is a committee which is inclusive of people of varied political viewpoints and backgrounds, and it is not what we term a--a more limited committee, which would have people more closely associated with us, but rather includes people who vigorously disagree with us, and in this sense is a broader committee. mr. rankin. that is, it might consist of people who were sympathetic with the communist movement and also those who were in support of the cuban movement but not necessarily with the communist movement? is that what you are saying? mr. johnson. yes; and who may even be vigorously opposed to the communist movement. mr. rankin. there is a reference to lee oswald trying to dissolve his united states citizenship. had you known of that before you received this letter? mr. johnson. no; i did not. mr. rankin. did you discuss this exhibit with anyone else at the time you prepared your answer? mr. johnson. when elizabeth gave it to me, just that she indicated that i should answer it. there was really no discussion of what the answer would be. mr. rankin. did you give him an answer as to whether he should remain in the background, i.e., underground? mr. johnson. yes; i did. mr. rankin. did you do that in your letter? mr. johnson. in my letter; yes. mr. rankin. there is on the last or third page, mr. johnson, a notation, "arnold," with a line above and below that. do you know whose handwriting that is? mr. johnson. elizabeth flynn's. mr. rankin. i hand you exhibit -a and ask you if that is a reply that you prepared to exhibit . mr. johnson. it is, but it is also to a further letter (indicating). mr. rankin. i hand you johnson exhibit no. , dated september , , apparently in the handwriting of lee harvey oswald and consisting of a part of one page in handwriting. is that the other letter that you referred to, that exhibit -a is a response to? mr. johnson. yes. mr. rankin. did you receive exhibit on or about the date it bears? mr. johnson. shortly after; yes. mr. rankin. is it in the same form? mr. johnson. it is. mr. rankin. so by exhibit -a you tried to answer both exhibit and exhibit ? is that what you mean? mr. johnson. and the one previous to that, too. there were three letters that come in under this. mr. rankin. by these three, you are referring to exhibit ---- mr. johnson. no. , , and . mr. rankin. will you initial those two as i have done, mr. johnson. (witness complies.) mr. rankin. in exhibit -a, you speak about finding some way to get in touch with mr. oswald in baltimore. can you tell us what you meant by that? mr. johnson. in his letter of september , he refers that he is going to come to the baltimore-washington area and asked for information about how to reach somebody. it is not my practice to refer them to people until a person comes into an area, and if there is any reason to refer them to a person, then i do so under those circumstances. thus, this is a simple form of simply--of just saying that when such a circumstance arises we can make a contact, that is, look him up wherever he is at the time. mr. rankin. after you received the letter, exhibit , with regard to lee harvey oswald's trying to dissolve his american citizenship while he was in the soviet union, did you make any inquiry to try to determine whether he had taken such action? mr. johnson. nothing further than was in the letter itself. mr. rankin. and you said that it is often advisable for some people to remain in the background, not underground. what did you mean by that? mr. johnson. very simply that as an american citizen, whatever he is doing should always be aboveground; that a person remains in the background within any organizational activities, that he does not push himself forward in whatever he is doing. (document marked johnson exhibit no. .) mr. rankin. i hand you exhibit no. and ask you whether that letter dated august , , consisting of two pages and an envelope, was one of the pieces of correspondence you turned over to the fbi at the time you described? mr. johnson. it is. mr. rankin. had you seen that exhibit at some time prior to the time you turned it over? mr. johnson. oh, yes; just within a couple of days before, i think it was. mr. rankin. it is addressed to a mr. or m. bert. i guess mr. bert. mr. johnson. mr. bert. mr. rankin. can you tell us who that is? mr. johnson. he is the managing editor of the worker. mr. rankin. how did that exhibit come to your attention? mr. johnson. i inquired specifically of the worker as to whether there was any other correspondence when i was assembling the material to turn over, and i insisted upon a search of files, in an easy way, "please look through the files and see if there is anything." mr. rankin. who did you make that inquiry of? mr. johnson. i made that actually to mr. jackson. mr. rankin. can you tell us who mr. jackson is, enough so that we can know how he may be acting or he may have the authority to search the files? mr. johnson. he is the editor of the worker. mr. rankin. that was done shortly before you turned over the other papers and this to the fbi? mr. johnson. yes. mr. rankin. do you have any basis for believing that when you made such a request it would be carried out? mr. johnson. oh, yes. mr. rankin. can you tell us enough about that so we would know what reason you would have to believe that it would be carried out? mr. johnson. well, the relationship would be one, which was very normal; the editorial policy of the worker in relationship to the assassination; and insistence upon cooperation in any fashion to determine anything related to it that would be helpful in the work of the commission or government agencies involved. there was no resistance, and there was immediately a willingness and desire to do so; that is all. mr. rankin. did you ask that there be a complete search for anything that would show any correspondence? mr. johnson. i did. mr. rankin. or contact with lee harvey oswald by either the communist party in the united states or the worker? mr. johnson. i did. mr. rankin. are you satisfied that that search was full and complete? mr. johnson. yes; i am. mr. rankin. and that whatever you turned over to the fbi was all that either of those organizations had in their possession? mr. johnson. that is correct. mr. rankin. did you have any further conversation with mr. bert in regard to lee harvey oswald? mr. johnson. only in the sense of asking whether he was sure that there was no other communications, and i think that was really all. i mean i didn't ask him what his reactions were or anything like that. mr. rankin. and you did not discuss the correspondence in the sense of what it contained? mr. johnson. no; i think i did discuss this, i asked him whether there was any reply to it, and he said, no; that he did not reply. and i asked him specifically as to whether--"are you sure?" because i wondered if there was anything further, and he said he was very sure about that. mr. rankin. would you initial that too, please, mr. johnson. (witness complies.) mr. rankin. do you know the mr. weinstock that is referred to in this exhibit ? mr. johnson. yes; i do. mr. rankin. can you tell us who he is or was at that time? mr. johnson. he was at that time the managing--the business manager of the worker. mr. rankin. would you tell us where he is now? mr. johnson. right at the moment he is out of town. he had a heart illness some time back. mr. rankin. is he somewhat disabled? mr. johnson. yes. well, he is not working at all now, and i--he was in town a few days ago seeing doctors, and i told him about this request. i asked him specifically whether he knew anything about--anything further about this letter, and so forth. he did not recall a thing. mr. rankin. did you ask him whether he had any other contacts with lee harvey oswald except the one that is referred to in that letter? mr. johnson. he did not recall it. i asked him that. i also made a search of his back files and found nothing. mr. rankin. did you make any inquiry as to whether he knew anything else about lee harvey oswald? mr. johnson. i inquired, i asked him that--this was all on the telephone--and he said, no. and he went to this thing out in the country some place, just to sort of recover from this illness. mr. rankin. and there is a mr. tormey that is referred to in that letter. do you know him too? mr. abt. mr. tormey is here, and he is prepared to testify. mr. johnson. yes; i do. mr. rankin. do you know what position he occupied about that time? mr. johnson. about that time he was the executive secretary of the hall-davis defense committee. (document marked johnson exhibit no. a.) mr. rankin. mr. johnson, i hand you exhibit a, which i was informed was one of the works of lee harvey oswald that you turned over to the fbi at the same time. do you recall having seen that? mr. johnson. yes. mr. rankin. do you know whether or not that was one of the pieces of lee harvey oswald's purported works that he had sent to mr. weinstock? mr. johnson. whether he had sent it to mr. weinstock or whether he had sent it to mr. bert, i don't know. i got it at the same time as i got the letter from mr. bert. mr. rankin. but you do believe that it was sent to one or the other? mr. johnson. it was sent to one or the other. it could have been either one. mr. rankin. and do you understand that it was purportedly something that lee harvey oswald claimed to have made up himself? mr. johnson. yes. mr. rankin. do you know whether or not mr. weinstock wrote any letter back to lee harvey oswald about that or other material that he had sent in? mr. johnson. not of my own knowledge, other than there is a reference to it in that letter. mr. rankin. yes; and you have already testified that you asked mr. weinstock about it, and he did not recall any answer; is that correct? mr. johnson. that is correct. mr. rankin. i notice with exhibit , the envelope shows considerable difficulty in reaching the addressee. mr. johnson. that is correct. mr. rankin. do you know how it happened to get to mr. bert? mr. johnson. well, the address is wrong in that on the envelope it is west d street, and the proper address would have been west th street. that is the first mistake. therefore it was apparently turned back, and then the post office made the correction. (witness initials exhibit no. a.) (document marked johnson exhibit no. .) mr. rankin. i hand you exhibit , which is a letter from lee harvey oswald, with the envelope. do you recall having received that and turning that over to the fbi? mr. johnson. yes; i do. mr. rankin. at the time you referred to? mr. johnson. yes; i do. mr. rankin. do you know whether you received it near the date that shows on the envelope? mr. johnson. i know when i received it. mr. rankin. oh, you do recall? mr. johnson. and it was not near the date. mr. rankin. i see. when was it? mr. johnson. the envelope has a postmark of the st of november. i received it on the th of november. that is the day after thanksgiving. mr. rankin. you were probably surprised to receive---- mr. johnson. i was. this was after the assassination date by a week. mr. rankin. did you answer that letter? mr. johnson. no. mr. rankin. you did not? mr. johnson. no. mr. rankin. you remember receiving it personally rather than someone in your office at that time? mr. johnson. it was brought in by the mail carrier in the normal--in the afternoon, and then was delivered to me within the office, yes. mr. rankin. will you place your initials under mine? (witness complies.) mr. rankin. do you know any reason for the delay in the letter? mr. johnson. i really do not. that's an unusual delay. i could readily see a delay occurring after the d, but to have a delay from the st to that date seems to me to be beyond all normal procedure. even when mails are held and checked during a thing like that, they wouldn't stand so long. i cannot understand. mr. rankin. did you make any examination at the time to determine whether exhibit had been opened by anyone before you received it? mr. johnson. no; except that the envelope has the unusual line on the back which indicates that there was possibly an opening and return. but that could also be the way it was folded or something like that. but you can see the line here [indicating]. mr. rankin. will you mark that---- mr. johnson. you see that. it looks that to me, anyway, as if this was the line where it had been opened and then put back. then if you look at the envelope itself, as an airmail envelope, normally this part would be turned down, and instead it's open like this. now, it's true that, folded that way, it fits in only when it is this way, but then this line should not have been here. there is something odd about the whole letter as far as the delivery itself is concerned. mr. rankin. would you make a pen line on the place on the back that you find that unusual marking, please. mr. johnson. (witness complies.) i will admit i was very much surprised when i received that letter. i was bound to look at it. mr. rankin. did you discuss it with anyone at the time? mr. johnson. i guess i just made comments all over the place about getting a letter from him at that time. mr. rankin. do you have any question about whether exhibit was prepared and sent by lee harvey oswald? mr. johnson. i never studied his handwriting too carefully. there are several things that looked a little bit odd about it. it's a little hard to say. for instance, you have a different kind of ink in two places here. it seems that way to me. but that's pretty hard to say with modern pens. the way he signs his name and the way--that could be a problem, because he didn't always sign it the same--or he has "mr. a. johnston" up here, and it starts "mr. johnson" up here. i don't know what all the confusing elements are, but i would just as soon leave that to someone who is more--who is a handwriting expert, and i am not. mr. rankin. did you ever have a conversation---- mr. johnson. it may be worthwhile to check it with a handwriting expert on that. mr. rankin. a conversation with v. t. lee or any others in regard to the fair play for cuba matter and lee harvey oswald? mr. johnson. at no time. mr. rankin. did you have any conversation with anyone about the effect of the assassination by lee harvey oswald and his connection with the fair play for cuba effort in new orleans on the communist party? mr. johnson. will you state that again? mr. rankin. read the question, please. (question read.) mr. johnson. not in that sense, no. not in relationship to fair play for cuba et cetera. mr. rankin. in some other sense, did you? mr. johnson. well, normally, just within our own--among our own people, i would naturally discuss it and say that somebody could try to make a false charge against us in some fashion, and that we of necessity would have to react quickly to it so as to make clear that he was never a member of the communist party, never associated with us in any fashion of a political or organizational character. mr. rankin. did you make any inquiry to determine whether or not any members of the communist party of the united states were involved in any conspiracy with lee harvey oswald about the assassination? mr. johnson. oh, i would say very definitely that they were not. there was never any such relationships at all. there was nobody that i know of who had any contact whatsoever, and i think i would have known. mr. rankin. by nobody, do you mean---- mr. johnson. no communist of any character, at any time. mr. rankin. have you made sufficient inquiry or have sufficient knowledge so you were satisfied that that would be true? mr. johnson. oh, yes. there was no relationships whatsoever. i would say definitely i would know if any communist would have had any conversation, and i know of none, no communication or conversation. mr. rankin. by any conversation, you mean with regard to the assassination of president kennedy? mr. johnson. yes. mr. rankin. did you have any contacts with the---- mr. johnson. that's so flagrantly against anything about the communist viewpoint that it's---- mr. rankin. will you explain that, mr. johnson? mr. johnson. communists just do not believe in assassination as a method of social change, and---- mr. rankin. you mean that as far as the communist party of the united states is concerned? mr. johnson. definitely. mr. rankin. or generally? mr. johnson. definitely and generally. i mean that very specifically. it has nothing to do with it. we would say that anybody who harbors such a thought is not only not a communist but an anti-communist basically. mr. rankin. would you extend that to cover the activities of various groups in the soviet union? mr. johnson. as far as assassination is concerned, yes. mr. rankin. i thought there was information that they had people connected with the government who were engaged in trying to understand and be able to use methods of assassination. mr. johnson. no. mr. rankin. you don't think that's true? mr. johnson. oh, no. that's not true. that's dissident groups, groups like that, not communist groups. mr. rankin. you don't think that is a part presently of the soviet union---- mr. johnson. definitely not. mr. rankin. and you don't think it is any part of the plans of the communist party of the united states? mr. johnson. i know that a thousand percent. we have for years made it a point if anybody has such viewpoints they cannot ever be a member of the party. they are expelled et cetera. we specifically speak against any acts of terrorism or individual violence et cetera. mr. rankin. did you have any contact with columbia broadcasting system in regard to news matters relating to lee harvey oswald? mr. johnson. that's what i was referring to before, that as soon as--yes, on the--i was trying to say the date, on the d, the day after the assassination, i called and issued a statement to all the news media in which i made it clear that lee harvey oswald was not associated with us in any way and so forth, and they carried this on the radio or on television, i think one of them did. but it was also carried on the front page of the new york times and through other papers. that was called in to all the stations, not just to columbia. there was a seven-sentence statement. mr. rankin. did you ever say that lee harvey oswald was not given citizenship in the soviet union because they considered him a fascist, or words to that effect? mr. johnson. i don't recall that. i don't recall that. mr. rankin. was that your belief? mr. johnson. i never got involved in the reason, as i recall, as to why he was not given citizenship there. i assumed they had good reasons. mr. rankin. did you ever see any writings or communications or anything to indicate that he had a fascist philosophy? mr. johnson. the only feature within that would be, within one of these letters, when he refers to the fact that he attended the walker meeting down there in dallas; another reported story of his volunteering to be on both sides as far as cuba was concerned, and then the further point, and this is a matter of political orientation maybe as to why he was in contact with senator tower instead of senator yarborough; that is just pure speculation, it doesn't mean very much. mr. rankin. most of his expressions in his correspondence that you produced indicated an interest and sympathy with the communist party rather than any fascist group, didn't they? mr. johnson. but the main point would be that this act is so contradictory to anything in the communist viewpoint, and that would be the essential test, that any person who has that kind of a mentality could just as well be covering up in communications, and that would be one of the difficulties of it; but the act itself, you see, would be an act, that kind of act of terrorism based upon the climate and everything there which would have been an act from a fascist-minded person instead of from a communist-minded person. mr. rankin. do you have any evidence or know of any evidence to indicate that this assassination was a rightist or extreme right plot of any kind, conspiracy? mr. johnson. not of evidence in that sense, no. if you draw conclusions from the materials that were being circulated in dallas, that ad in the newspaper that morning, and the various communications of people, of the added hate atmosphere, the warnings that were made of that hatred, that was all of a rightist character. mr. rankin. but that wouldn't necessarily mean that there was any plot or conspiracy to assassinate president kennedy, would it? or does it to you? mr. johnson. well, i would rather think not. i mean i would rather think that nobody would proceed from any of this to the point of assassination. and there it is a matter i think where a person may have an opinion and not necessarily have evidence that could substantiate the opinion. mr. rankin. or you could speculate easily? mr. johnson. that is speculation. mr. rankin. whether it was a rightist plot or there was a leftist plot? mr. johnson. if there was a plot, it was only a rightist plot. mr. rankin. and you say that because you consider the act of assassination to accomplish political ends is not within the communist party philosophy; is that right? mr. johnson. that is basically true. the second basic point would be the attitude of the communist towards president kennedy was one of high regard and respect, even though sharply differing on many things, but it was always that. mr. rankin. mr. johnson, do you have any other papers or knowledge bearing upon the assassination of president kennedy that you haven't related here? mr. johnson. no, i do not. mr. rankin. that is all i have, mr. abt. do you have anything? mr. abt. i have nothing. mr. rankin. mr. abt, may we ask you to be so kind as to be sworn and act as a witness for a brief moment? mr. abt. surely. testimony of james j. tormey the testimony of james j. tormey was taken at : a.m., on april , , at the u.s. courthouse, foley square, new york, n.y., by messrs. j. lee rankin, general counsel and wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. james j. tormey was accompanied by his attorney, john j. abt. james j. tormey, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: mr. rankin. give the reporter your name and your address. mr. tormey. james j. tormey, t-o-r-m-e-y, willoughby avenue, brooklyn, n.y. mr. rankin. mr. tormey, you received some correspondence from lee harvey oswald, did you? mr. tormey. i received--a letter was referred to me from him. mr. rankin. who referred the letter to you? mr. tormey. i don't know who it was, but apparently the letter which is addressed on the upper right-hand side to west th street was referred, and i don't remember who referred it. mr. rankin. will you tell us what your position was at the time you received this referral? mr. tormey. yes; i was the executive secretary of the hall-davis defense committee. (objects marked tormey exhibit no. .) mr. rankin. mr. tormey, will you examine exhibit no. on the deposition that you are giving today, which consists of several placard-type pieces of material, together with some plastic pieces, and tell us whether or not you have seen those before? mr. tormey. i have seen them before. mr. rankin. that exhibit , i did not fully describe as i asked you to examine it. it also includes a little note purportedly from lee harvey oswald, addressed to "dear sirs," with an address, west th street, apparently, new york. mr. tormey. i imagine that is th street. i am not sure. mr. rankin. twenty-six; yes. and that was a part of the exhibit that included these other materials that i have described, was it, when you received it? mr. tormey. that is right. mr. rankin. after you received exhibit with those various materials and that note on yellow paper, what did you do? mr. tormey. well, after reading it over i answered to the person who signed the letter, stating that i would put it on file, expressing appreciation for sending them, that i would put it on file in the event that we would have any occasion to use his services. (document marked tormey exhibit no. .) mr. rankin. i hand you exhibit no. and ask you if that is a carbon copy of the answer that you prepared and sent. mr. tormey. yes; it is. mr. rankin. under our practice, the examining attorney is asked to initial the exhibit, and the witness too, so it will be established that we both---- mr. tormey. examined it? mr. rankin. examined it; yes. would you kindly do that? (witness complies.) mr. rankin. and kindly do the same for exhibit . (witness complies.) mr. rankin. mr. tormey, we have initialed exhibit no. on the back of one of the placards, which appear to be the same, reading "the gus hall-benjamin davis defense committee," below that the words "end mccarranism" in large letters, and there are two of those, apparently identical; and then two plastic sheets, with the same legend on each of them, one of them apparently a negative and the other a positive, and then the little note headed "dear sirs" and signed "lee h. oswald," and message on the back, instructions, and so forth; is that correct? mr. tormey. yes. mr. rankin. did you have any other communications with lee harvey oswald except exhibits and ? mr. tormey. i have no recollection of any. mr. rankin. have you made any search of your files to determine whether or not there is anything else that you have? mr. tormey. i did, sir. mr. rankin. when did you do that? mr. tormey. well, it was--it would be sometime in the latter part of november or the early part of december of . mr. rankin. how did you happen to make that search? mr. tormey. well, i had been told that a letter had been received from me by him, and i decided to conduct a routine check. mr. rankin. what was the nature of that search? will you tell us so we can know how complete it was? mr. tormey. yes; well, first i kept copies of all communications that i had with anyone. mr. rankin. yes. mr. tormey. so i would assume in advance that there was a copy, and i asked the person who was managing the office at the time that i was there to look into the files to see if it were possible that such a communication did exist. i found that copy of communication. mr. rankin. was the person that you asked to make that search a person under your control and direction? mr. tormey. at the time i was with hall and davis. mr. rankin. but at the time you requested this search, this person was not under your control and direction, i take it? mr. tormey. well, not control and direction. mr. rankin. i see. but there was a sufficient relationship so that you are satisfied that the search was made, and it was a thorough search? mr. tormey. i am perfectly satisfied. mr. rankin. and you are able to assure us that there is nothing else so far as you know in regard to any communication of any type with lee harvey oswald? mr. tormey. i give that assurance. mr. rankin. do you know of any effort in regard to any conspiracy or common action between any people associated with this gus hall-benjamin j. davis defense committee that were involved with lee harvey oswald in the assassination of president kennedy? mr. tormey. i have no such knowledge. mr. rankin. do you have any information that would cause you to believe that there was any such association? mr. tormey. no; i have not. mr. rankin. did you ever use any of the material in exhibit in connection with your work on the committee? mr. tormey. no, sir. mr. rankin. do you have any other knowledge in regard to the assassination of president kennedy that you have not related to us? mr. tormey. no, sir. mr. rankin. thank you very much. testimony of farrell dobbs the testimony of farrell dobbs was taken at : a.m., on april , , at the u.s. courthouse, foley square, new york, n.y., by messrs. j. lee rankin, general counsel and wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. farrell dobbs was accompanied by his attorney, rowland watts. farrell dobbs, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: mr. rankin. in this examination, mr. dobbs, we are proceeding in accordance with the procedures that the commission has set out and by reason of the executive order of president johnson no. and the joint resolution of congress no. . the examination will be done by myself, j. lee rankin, general counsel for the commission. mr. liebeler is associated with me in that regard. you are entitled to a -day notice of this examination. i assume, since you are willing to come here, you are willing to waive that -day notice and proceed with the hearing at this time; is that right? mr. dobbs. that's right. mr. rankin. you are also entitled to have your counsel here, as you have, and during the examination, if he has any objection to any questions or wants to have a recess so that he may talk with you, of course, he may. at the close of your testimony, if there is something that he would like to examine you about so as to clarify anything that you said or give you an opportunity to correct or to change it, that is provided for, too. do you have any questions before we start? mr. watts. mr. rankin, i think that it should show on the record that this is a voluntary appearance, that mr. dobbs volunteered what information he had and offered to come if you chose to have him. mr. rankin. yes; we wish to have that on the record. did you produce the information that was requested of you? mr. dobbs. yes; i turned it over to mr. watts, and he forwarded it to you. mr. rankin. do you have from the militant files the -month introductory subscription blank stamped september , ? mr. watts. yes; we offer it. mr. rankin. will you mark that as exhibit . (marked dobbs' exhibit no. .) mr. rankin. do you have the -month renewal blank stamped may , ? mr. watts. yes; we offer that. mr. rankin. mark that exhibit , please. (marked dobbs' exhibit no. .) mr. rankin. do you have the addressograph plate for lee h. oswald? mr. watts. yes; we offer that. mr. rankin. mark that exhibit , please. (marked dobbs' exhibit no. .) mr. rankin. and from the pioneer publishers' files--i failed to ask you for the change of address notice postmarked june , , and november , . do you have those? mr. watts. yes; i offer them. mr. rankin. mark those exhibits and respectively. (marked dobbs' exhibits nos. and .) mr. rankin. do you have from the pioneer publishers' files an order for the teachings of leon trotsky and a cash memo dated may , , indicating that cents had been received? mr. watts. yes; we have that, and with them is a carbon copy of a letter from pioneer publishers, dated september , , and a canceled envelope postmarked january , i believe, , to pioneer publishers from lee oswald, and we offer all of those. mr. rankin. thank you. mr. watts. in addition, from pioneer publishers, we have a letter from lee oswald with a date january , the year not identified, ordering "the coming american revolution," "the end of the comintern," and "the manifesto of the fourth internationale," indicating that cents is enclosed and requesting the english words of the song "the internationale," and attached is a receipt or a cash memo of pioneer publishers, indicating that cents was received. mr. rankin. mark that no. . (marked dobbs' exhibit no. .) mr. watts. we also have a carbon copy of a letter dated april , , to mr. oswald, setting forth the english words of the internationale. i believe that is all we have from pioneer publishers. mr. rankin. do you have any document from the files of the socialist workers party? mr. watts. yes. mr. rankin. will you describe those, please? mr. watts. we have a letter dated august , , signed lee h. oswald to the socialist workers party, asking for information concerning the nature of the party and expressing an interest in finding out all he can about the program. we have a coupon dated as having been received october , , signed lee h. oswald, indicating that he would like to join the socialist workers party, and we have a carbon copy of a letter dated august , , apparently in answer to the first letter, thanking mr. oswald for his request for information and indicating that a pamphlet concerning the socialist workers party was being enclosed and inviting further inquiry if he had any more questions. mr. rankin. the last material you have described, mr. watts will be marked dobbs' no. . (marked dobbs' exhibit no. .) mr. watts. we have, in addition, a letter dated september , , signed lee h. oswald. attached to it is what appears to be its envelope from new orleans, postmarked august , . this letter requests information concerning swp representatives in the washington-baltimore area and states that mr. oswald expects to be moving into that area in october. that is all i have. mr. rankin. thank you. the last letter and envelope are marked dobbs' exhibit no. . (marked dobbs' exhibit no. .) mr. rankin. mr. dobbs, do you have some occupation at the present time? mr. dobbs. i am secretary of the socialist workers party. mr. rankin. have you been in that position for some time? mr. dobbs. since . mr. rankin. did you have some correspondence with lee harvey oswald? mr. dobbs. we have nothing in our files other than what we have turned over to you. i might add that i feel certain that we would have responded to his--the coupon that he sent indicating a desire to join the party. it's not surprising we wouldn't have kept a file copy, because our interest in cases of this kind is an established thing. it is our policy not to take anybody into membership in the party unless we have a branch of the party in the area where they are resident. in such case we would--we would have replied to him to that effect. we would have suggested to him that he interest himself in the circulation of the militant and socialist literature and would have expressed a desire for continued fraternal contact with him on that basis. mr. rankin. do you recall having seen dobbs' no. at some time? mr. dobbs. i recall that only in the sense that i assisted in the search of the files after november to find everything we could. mr. rankin. will you describe to the commission what happened at that time, what you did? did you do something to try to find out if there was any contact or communication between your organization and lee harvey oswald? mr. dobbs. yes. i received a telephone call from one of the newspaper reporters asking me if oswald had ever been a subscribed to the militant. i told him not to my knowledge. i then, however, went and checked the files, discovered he had been, and with that i decided to check every file that i could, and find whatever information was in the files, and get it together. mr. rankin. about when did you do that? mr. dobbs. this would have been done, i believe, about monday following the assassination. i think it was on monday morning i received the call. mr. rankin. what kind of a search was made at that time; can you describe that for the commission, please? mr. dobbs. yes. we went through all the files that we had, and, well, i guess that is about all i can say. mr. rankin. who do you mean by "we." mr. dobbs. myself and members of the organization who work as my voluntary office assistants, and i cooperated with the people in charge of the militant business office, and the pioneer publishing business office. mr. rankin. and how complete was that search? mr. dobbs. we made it as thorough as we could, to our best knowledge. we have given you everything we had in the files. mr. rankin. as a result of that search, you discovered dobbs' no. , did you? mr. dobbs. yes. mr. rankin. that is a subscription for the months' introductory subscription of the militant---- mr. dobbs. yes, that is correct. mr. rankin. by lee harvey oswald, or lee h. oswald? mr. dobbs. yes, that is correct. mr. rankin. it is a practice in taking these depositions, mr. dobbs, for the counsel that is examining to initial whatever exhibits are presented, and also for the witness, so that it can be recognized as official. (witness complies.) (document marked dobbs' exhibit no. .) mr. rankin. did you at that time also discover dobbs' no. ? mr. dobbs. yes. mr. rankin. and what is that? mr. dobbs. it is a renewal of the trial subscription, and it is stamped may , . mr. rankin. will you kindly initial that too? (witness complies.) (addressograph plate marked dobbs' exhibit no. .) mr. dobbs. yes. mr. rankin. will you please initial that? mr. dobbs. yes. (witness complies.) (document marked dobbs' exhibit no. .) mr. rankin. do you recall at that time discovering dobbs' no. ? mr. dobbs. yes. mr. rankin. what is that? mr. dobbs. it is a notification of change of address sent by lee h. oswald and stamped "received" on june , . mr. rankin. will you please initial that? mr. dobbs. yes (witness complies). (document marked dobbs' exhibit no. .) mr. rankin. then did you discover at that time dobbs' no. ? mr. dobbs. yes. mr. rankin. that is also a change-of-address notice? mr. dobbs. it is a change of address notice from lee h. oswald stamped "received" november , . mr. rankin. changing the address from new orleans back to dallas? mr. dobbs. yes. mr. rankin. will you kindly initial that? (witness complies.) (document marked dobbs' exhibit no. .) mr. rankin. do you recall receiving dobbs' no. ? mr. dobbs. yes. mr. rankin. what does that consist of? mr. dobbs. a cash receipt for cents received from oswald. mr. watts. correction, mr. rankin. it is not really a cash receipt; it is a cash office memo. mr. rankin. thank you. is that correct? mr. dobbs. that is correct, yes, under date of august , . and the second item is an order blank requesting a book, the teachings of leon trotsky, signed by lee h. oswald, stamped "received" august , . a third item is a letter under date of september , , to lee h. oswald from pioneer publishers, acknowledging receipt of the order and indicating that the book ordered is out of print and that he will be given a -cent credit on the money he sent in. mr. rankin. the last item is the envelope? mr. dobbs. the last item is an envelope postmarked dallas, tex., either january or january , it is difficult to discern, , with oswald's name in the upper left-hand corner. mr. rankin. would you kindly initial that? mr. dobbs. each separately. mr. rankin. no, just the first one. (witness complies.) mr. rankin. did you handle any part of the transactions involved in dobbs' no. yourself? mr. dobbs. no, not personally. (document marked dobbs' exhibit no. .) mr. rankin. will you examine dobbs' no. and tell us what it is, please? mr. dobbs. an office cash memo acknowledging cents received from l. h. oswald, dated january , , and a letter to pioneer publishers from lee h. oswald under date of january , . mr. rankin. will you initial that, please, mr. dobbs? (witness complies.) (document marked dobbs' exhibit no. .) mr. rankin. will you examine watts' no. and tell us what that is. mr. dobbs. it is a letter to lee h. oswald from pioneer publishers under date of april , . mr. rankin. will you initial that? (witness complies.) (document marked dobbs' exhibit no. .) mr. rankin. and dobbs' no. , tell us what that is, please. mr. dobbs. a coupon signed "lee h. oswald," received under date of october , , in which he indicates, by placing a check in an appropriate place, that he would like to join the socialist workers party. mr. rankin. that is what you have referred to in your prior testimony when you said that you would have responded to it in the way you have described if you knew that there was no organization in that locality? mr. dobbs. that is correct. mr. rankin. was there a socialist workers party organization in the dallas area at that time? mr. dobbs. no, no; there was not. mr. rankin. you haven't discovered any copy of a communication to lee harvey oswald along the lines that you have described, have you? mr. dobbs. no, sir; i have not. mr. rankin. but you know it is a standard practice, and that is the way you would have responded? mr. dobbs. that is correct. (document marked dobbs' exhibit no. .) mr. rankin. mr. dobbs, we have what has been marked as dobbs' no. , which purports to be a copy, photocopy, of a carbon of your response as of november , , to mr. oswald's letter. will you examine that and see whether or not it is? mr. rankin. i would like to correct the record to show that this is a typewritten copy of the original, apparently not the carbon. mr. watts. clarify that. you are saying that it is a typewritten copy of the original of the letter---- mr. rankin. purportedly. mr. watts. purportedly received by mr. oswald? mr. rankin. yes. mr. liebeler. off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. rankin. will you first respond, mr. dobbs, to whether or not this dobbs' no. appears to be a typewritten copy of a letter that you wrote to lee harvey oswald in response to his inquiry about the socialist workers party? mr. dobbs. yes, it appears to be the type of letter i would have written. mr. rankin. do you understand that we are going to secure the original and submit it to you to see if it is in fact the letter that you did write, and if you find that it is, then it will be offered as a part of this deposition? mr. dobbs. yes. mr. rankin. will you initial now dobbs' no. , please? (witness complies.) mr. watts. mr. rankin, in his responding he did not get past that coupon. mr. rankin. yes. will you describe the balance of dobbs' no. ? i understand you completed with the coupon but not the other two pieces. mr. dobbs. the second item is a letter from lee h. oswald, addressed apparently to the socialist workers party and marked "received" under date of august , , in which he requests information about the nature of the party and its policies. the third is a letter to lee h. oswald from the socialist workers party under date of august , , indicating that a pamphlet is being enclosed for him entitled "the socialist workers party--what it is, what it stands for." mr. rankin. i asked you whether or not the socialist workers party had any organization in dallas. what is the fact in regard to fort worth and new orleans at that time? mr. dobbs. no, we had no organization anywhere in that area. (document marked dobbs' exhibit no. .) mr. rankin. will you examine dobbs' no. and tell us what that exhibit consists of. mr. dobbs. a letter signed "lee h. oswald" to the socialist workers party, dated september , , stating that he would like to know if he could get in direct contact with swp representatives in the washington, d.c.-baltimore area. mr. rankin. will you please initial that? mr. dobbs. right on the envelope? mr. rankin. that is right. (witness complies.) mr. rankin. i notice that dobbs' no. refers to a sherry finer signed on the letter, copy of which is dated august , . mr. dobbs. yes. mr. rankin. who is sherry finer? mr. dobbs. she is one of the volunteer assistants that helps me occasionally with office work. mr. rankin. and no. is a typewritten copy of the original, purportedly an answer to lee harvey oswald that we have already referred to, and you have said you thought it would be the type of letter at least that you would write in answer? mr. dobbs. that is correct. mr. rankin. and we have said that we would get the original and submit it to you for your examination. if you find that the original is the original of dobbs' no. when it is submitted to you, will you then initial it and return it to us so we can make it a part of the record here? mr. dobbs. i will do so. mr. rankin. thank you. (document marked dobbs' exhibit no. .) mr. rankin. i hand you dobbs' no. and ask you if you know anything about the person bob chester that purportedly signed the original of that letter. mr. dobbs. yes. mr. rankin. who is that bob chester? mr. dobbs. it is an associate of mine, works in collaboration with me, a day volunteer here in the party office. mr. rankin. do you know anything about the blowups, reversal and reproduction work that he refers to there? mr. dobbs. i can only assume that he would have written about---- mr. watts. excuse me. you should answer what you know, farrell; and if you want to express an opinion, it is all right, but make it very clear whether or not you have any knowledge. mr. dobbs. would you ask me the question again; perhaps i did not understand. mr. rankin. i am interested in your knowledge about that material that is referred to in the letter, the blowups and reproductions and the other things that are referred to in the first paragraph. mr. dobbs. so far as i can perceive, it refers to a technical process. i wouldn't know anything beyond that. mr. rankin. and you don't know whether there was anything of that kind; at least you did not find it when you made the search? mr. dobbs. i have no indication of such information in our search. mr. rankin. mr. chester is still with your organization? mr. dobbs. he is. mr. rankin. and you don't recall this exhibit no. or the original or copies or anything of that kind? mr. dobbs. no; i do not. mr. rankin. you did not find it when you made your search? mr. dobbs. that's right. mr. rankin. would you kindly make a search to see if there is such a letter and such materials in your files? mr. dobbs. yes; we will look for that. mr. watts. mr. rankin, you are requesting mr. dobbs to make a further search to see if he can find the letter and reproductions referred to; is that correct? mr. rankin. yes, both; and if he does find them, to forward them to us so they can be incorporated after they are initialed as a part of the record in this deposition. (document marked dobbs' exhibit no. .) mr. rankin. mr. dobbs, do you recall seeing dobbs' no. ? mr. dobbs. no; i do not. mr. rankin. do you recognize the signature? mr. dobbs. yes; that would have been one of my associates that helps me in volunteer office work. mr. rankin. and you recognize the stationery, i suppose? mr. dobbs. yes; that appears to be on our letterhead. mr. rankin. when you made a search of the files, you did not find any letter like dobbs' no. ? mr. dobbs. no; i did not. mr. rankin. did you have any information as to whether or not such a letter was sent? mr. dobbs. no, no. i would assume, in view of the fact that it does appear to be an official party letterhead, that the letter would have been sent, but we would not have kept a file copy of it. mr. rankin. i see. and you do recognize the signature? mr. dobbs. yes. mr. rankin. would you kindly initial that, please. mr. dobbs. (witness complies.) mr. rankin. do you have any recollection of any other correspondence or communications of any kind? mr. dobbs. no; i do not, sir. mr. rankin. with lee harvey oswald? mr. dobbs. i do not. mr. rankin. you will note that dobbs' no. refers to a communication from lee harvey oswald of march , presumably . do you recall ever having seen that? mr. dobbs. no; i do not, and obviously it was not in our files or we would have included it in the material we turned over to you. mr. rankin. while you are making further search for this last item, would you kindly make another search to see if you do have any copy of dobbs' no. and also the letter from lee harvey oswald of march ? mr. dobbs. that's referred to here? mr. rankin. yes. mr. dobbs. yes. we will make a recheck. mr. rankin. we should also like that clipping that is referred to as being enclosed with mr. oswald's letter, if you find it. mr. dobbs. yes. mr. rankin. i was not quite clear, mr. dobbs, about your response in regard to that. is that the type of letter you would not expect to have a copy of in the files? mr. dobbs. yes. mr. rankin. because it is a general form that is followed? is that the reason? mr. dobbs. yes. the reason--i can explain to you, however, our basic procedure in matters of this kind. we receive quite a few inquiries, and we have more or less an established policy of reply along the lines i have indicated to you, so we do not keep an accumulation of the--all the letters received and all the replies sent. as i told you, our office work is done essentially by volunteer help. we are a small organization with meager resources, and we have to adjust our proceedings accordingly. mr. rankin. do you have any knowledge of any collaboration, association or combination of any of the people in the socialist workers party, pioneer publishers, or the militant, with lee harvey oswald and his action in connection with the assassination of president kennedy? mr. dobbs. none whatever. so far as i know, nobody in any of the categories mentioned by you ever knew anything about him other than the written material that we have made available to you. mr. rankin. with your position in connection with these organizations, would you have such material? would such information be available to you if it existed? mr. dobbs. yes. if anybody in the organization would know, i would know. i am the central executive officer of the party. mr. rankin. you are satisfied that no one had such an association with lee harvey oswald from those organizations? mr. dobbs. absolutely so. mr. rankin. do you know of any other communications, either orally or in writing, between any of those organizations and lee harvey oswald, other than what has been produced here? mr. dobbs. no; i do not. mr. rankin. we have some information, mr. dobbs, that when lee harvey oswald was about years of age, he communicated with the socialist party of america and the socialist call. i would like to know whether or not those have any relationship with the organizations that i have just described that you have some connection with? mr. dobbs. no, sir; it is an entirely different organization. our organization didn't come into being until . mr. rankin. and these organizations, the socialist call and the socialist party of america, were not predecessors of your organization? mr. dobbs. no. mr. rankin. or associated in any way? mr. dobbs. no. mr. rankin. do you have any knowledge of any conspiracy or association with lee harvey oswald by anybody with regard to whatever he did in connection with the assassination of president kennedy? mr. dobbs. no; i do not, and i would add that it's a matter of historic record, long established, that our organization's philosophy is opposed to individual acts of political terrorism. mr. rankin. do you have any additional information beyond what you have supplied here that might be of assistance to the commission in regard to the assassination of president kennedy? mr. dobbs. no; we do not. we have sought voluntarily to provide you everything we have in the spirit of giving you whatever cooperation we could, and we have given you all the information we had. mr. rankin. and that includes anything, either oral or in writing? mr. dobbs. correct. mr. rankin. thank you very much, mr. dobbs. testimony of john j. abt the testimony of john j. abt was taken at : a.m., on april , , at the u.s. courthouse, foley square, new york, n.y., by messrs. j. lee rankin, general counsel, and wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. john abt, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: mr. rankin. will you state your name? mr. abt. john j. abt. mr. rankin. where do you live? mr. abt. central park west, new york city. mr. rankin. you are a practicing attorney in the city of new york? mr. abt. i am. mr. rankin. how long have you been practicing law? mr. abt. a long time, mr. rankin, since . you do the mathematics. mr. rankin. you have been informed, i am sure, that lee harvey oswald, after his arrest, tried to reach you to request that you act as his counsel. i don't know how you were informed, but i have seen it in the newspapers. when did it first come to your attention? mr. abt. may i tell you the story, mr. rankin? perhaps that is the simplest way. mr. rankin. yes. mr. abt. on friday evening, the d, my wife and i left the city to spend the weekend at a little cabin we have up in the connecticut woods. sometime on saturday, several people phoned me to say that they had heard on the radio that oswald had asked that i represent him, and then shortly after that the press--both the press, radio, and tv reporters began to call me up there. i may say we have a radio but we have no tv there. and in the interim i turned on the radio and heard the same report. i informed them--and these calls kept on all day and night saturday and again sunday morning--i informed all of the reporters with whom i spoke that i had received no request either from oswald or from anyone on his behalf to represent him, and hence i was in no position to give any definitive answer to any such proposal if, as and when it came. i told them, however, that if i were requested to represent him, i felt that it would probably be difficult, if not impossible, for me to do so because of my commitments to other clients. i never had any communication, either directly from oswald or from anyone on his behalf, and all of my information about the whole matter to this day came from what the press told me in those telephone conversations and what i subsequently read in the newspapers. mr. rankin. mr. abt, did you learn that lee harvey oswald was interested in having you represent him apparently because of some prior connection of yours with the american civil liberties union? mr. abt. no. my assumption was, and it is pure assumption, that he read about some of my representation in the press, and, therefore, it occurred to him that i might be a good man to represent him, but that is pure assumption on my part. i have no direct knowledge of the whole matter. mr. rankin. you have told us all that you know about it? mr. abt. yes. i may say that i have had no prior contact with oswald, knew nothing about him, did not know the name, and this request came as something entirely new and surprising to me when it came. mr. rankin. none of your clients had ever communicated to you about him prior to that time you heard about it over the radio? mr. abt. no; i had no recollection of even having heard the name, his name, before that time. mr. rankin. thank you. mr. abt. right. testimony of mrs. helen p. cunningham the testimony of mrs. helen p. cunningham was taken at : p.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. albert e. jenner, assistant counsel of the president's commission. robert t. davis, assistant attorney general of texas, was present. mr. jenner. would you state your full name? mrs. cunningham. helen p. cunningham. mr. jenner. and would you rise and be sworn. mrs. cunningham, in your testimony that you are about to give, do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? mrs. cunningham. i do. mr. jenner. i am albert e. jenner, jr. i am a member of the legal staff of the president's commission. the president's commission was created by u.s. senate joint resolution . that commission under that legislation is appointed to investigate the assassination of our late president, john fitzgerald kennedy. the president of the united states, mr. lyndon b. johnson, did act pursuant to that legislation and under executive order , he appointed the commission and brought it into legal existence. its duties, as i have indicated, are to investigate the assassination of the late president, john fitzgerald kennedy, and in the course of that work, which has now been going on for some time, we find many people, especially people here in dallas, who had some kind of contact in the normal and usual and regular course of business, most of them, whether state agents or otherwise, with lee harvey oswald and some of them with his wife, marina. we understand from others of your fellow employees of the commission that you had some contact with lee harvey oswald and i would like to ask you some questions about that. am i right in my assumption that you did have some contact with him? mrs. cunningham. yes. mr. jenner. and it was in your capacity, in the due course of your work with the texas employment commission, that office being located here in dallas? mrs. cunningham. yes, sir. mr. jenner. where do you reside, mrs. cunningham? mrs. cunningham. north winnetka. mr. jenner. in dallas? mrs. cunningham. yes, sir. mr. jenner. are you a native of dallas? mrs. cunningham. what is your definition of "native"--born here, sir? mr. jenner. well, say--born or lived most of your life in dallas? mrs. cunningham. no, sir; my speech indicates that i was not. mr. jenner. i detected that. mrs. cunningham. i was born in st. louis, mo., and resided in missouri in various portions of it. if my voice is low, young lady, if it doesn't come to you, well please call my attention to it. we came to dallas in and we have resided here since then. mr. jenner. how long have you been employed by or associated with the texas employment commission? mrs. cunningham. since august of , if i am remembering my dates properly. mr. jenner. and your duties with the commission, say, the last years have been what? mrs. cunningham. as an employment counselor. mr. jenner. explain what that is, please? mrs. cunningham. we are a small group of workers that are set into our operation, who are given more time to deal with applicants, who for one reason or another had difficulty in finding jobs or in holding jobs, and we used the best techniques that are available to us to be helpful, primarily to the applicant, but also preparing him for what he finds in the labor market, and what working conditions are, and what employers' requirements are. mr. jenner. tell me, in general, how does the texas employment commission function? mrs. cunningham. as a quasi-federal-state operation under the u.s. department of labor and you undoubtedly know that there is a bureau of employment security office here. mr. jenner. that's the federal bureau? mrs. cunningham. yes, sir. mr. jenner. or agency? mrs. cunningham. yes, sir; which represents the u.s. department of labor and serves a region in which we are. i am by my paycheck an employee of the state of texas, however. it works, in general, however, as all the public employment offices do, in the different states. now, do you want more detail than that, or was that helpful. mr. jenner. well, probably, that is sufficient, with a little supplementation. let me put to you a couple of hypotheticals. someone comes into this state who has had no connection with any employment in the state of texas and that hypothetical person comes to the texas employment commission and said he is seeking employment--does the texas employment commission do anything, or would it do anything about seeking employment for him? mrs. cunningham. certainly. we have, you know, what is commonly known as a clearance procedure, which is an interchange of orders and applicants among the states and it is an interlocked operation among states. mr. jenner. and that particular person, i take it from what you say, you would inquire of him as to his past employment? mrs. cunningham. yes, sir. mr. jenner. in the other states, and would seek the information from the other states by way of confirmation, or would you go that far? mrs. cunningham. no, sir; we generally accept the applicant's statement as to what his previous employment is, and in general, the employer checks references if he is considering hiring that individual. mr. jenner. now, the second hypothetical i would like to put to you--i anticipate the answer is obvious--he is employed by someone in texas, let's say, in this county, that employment terminates, he then comes to the texas employment commission, i take it you would undertake upon review of his record and make it a necessary recording of that record; to also seek to obtain him employment if he sought it? mrs. cunningham. yes, sir. we are a public agency and our doors are open to the public. mr. jenner. is it coordinated in anyway with unemployment compensation? mrs. cunningham. yes, sir. mr. jenner. tell us how that operates? mrs. cunningham. well, you know the legislation better than i do, because i am assuming that your profession is a lawyer? mr. jenner. yes; i am a lawyer, but don't presume i know anything. mrs. cunningham. well, i would hate to be talking to the table [laughing]. mr. jenner. mrs. cunningham, the person who reads the record may not be a lawyer. mrs. cunningham. i see. mr. jenner. and may not understand this and my purpose is to record how the commission functions. mrs. cunningham. the original legislation established the employment service and the unemployment compensation program under one law, and until about year ago in dallas, applicants for unemployment compensation applied at usually the same office for recording their availability for work and making a claim for unemployment compensation, as where the employment services were housed in the last year in this particular area, and it is not true throughout all the public employment service offices--not even in this district. we have split out the employment services from the unemployment services, but there is a coordination between the offices and in the procedures on unemployment compensation, i know the general law and the necessity for being able and available for work, while being a claimant, and i make no pretense of knowing the up-to-date details of that. mr. jenner. no; i wasn't seeking that. i just wanted the general picture of how they are coordinated. mrs. cunningham. and you see, one of the necessities for a person filing a claim for unemployment compensation is that he be registered in a public employment office. mr. jenner. and be available? mrs. cunningham. be available and be able to work. those are basic requirements and i think those are the same throughout the states. mr. jenner. now, in the performance of your duties, your particular function with the texas employment commission, did you have occasion to counsel, talk with, or examine a man by the name of lee harvey oswald? mrs. cunningham. yes, sir. mr. jenner. tell us about that please, ma'am. if you need any of these records to refresh your recollection, please use them, and as you refer to them, would you hesitate so i can identify the exhibit to which you make reference? you may use those documents to refresh your recollection. you did have a direct contact with lee harvey oswald and i would like to have you give me the time, when it commenced, and relate it to us. mrs. cunningham. as mr. statman has probably told you, a photostat of the counseling record is not here. the record i am now looking at is the application form. mr. jenner. excuse me, it is the form that i described in the record, the top line of which reads, "describe your longest and most important jobs, including military service. begin with your most recent job." it is also the application form called e- . mrs. cunningham. yes; it is e- . mr. jenner. we will mark it cunningham exhibit no. . now, i take it you were at the texas employment commission and mr. oswald came in; is that correct? [the original of cunningham exhibit no. is in evidence as cunningham exhibit no. -a.] mrs. cunningham. no, sir. i'm on the record. i got a call from an acquaintance of mine, as i recall it, it was from mr. teofil meller, m-e-l-l-e-r (spelling). mr. jenner. that is t-e-o-f-i-l m-e-l-l-e-r (spelling)? mrs. cunningham. you can be right--i was recalling it with an "h" in it, but i believe that's the way he does spell it--asking me if i would see lee harvey oswald or lee oswald, as it was known, as they were giving assistance to his wife and infant child, and they were saying, "if you can help him, it will help the family and relieve us of this burden." mr. jenner. you understood, then, from mr. meller, that the wife, at least, was residing with him? mrs. cunningham. at or had previously resided there for a brief time. i can't be certain of that. mr. jenner. in any event, that the mellers were under obligation to assist or they had volunteered to assist? mrs. cunningham. volunteered to assist. mr. jenner. they had volunteered to assist the oswalds or at least mrs. oswald? mr. jenner. did mr. meller say anything to you at this time as to who mrs. oswald was and who mr. oswald was? mrs. cunningham. as i recall, he said that oswald was a fort worth boy who had lived in russia and had married a russian girl, and it was she who was in their residence and it was their offspring. mr. jenner. that is, they had a child and the child was the offspring of this marriage? mrs. cunningham. yes, sir. mr. jenner. all right. go ahead. mrs. cunningham. i cannot be certain whether i gave an appointment at that time or not, or simply said, "well, ask him to come in and see me"; that would be normal procedure, or usually we look up any records that we may already have, you see, sir, and if you will excuse me, i will see what i have on some little scratch notes here when mr. odum of the fbi called me from the district office. mr. jenner. you use anything you wish to refresh your recollection. mrs. cunningham. all right, sir. i am uncertain whether the - - dating on this application form is my handwriting or not. i know that the - - is. mr. jenner. that's october , ? mrs. cunningham. yes, sir--that is my dating of the application card and i would suspect that that was the first day on which i saw him, but i could have seen him on the th. mr. jenner. all right. mrs. cunningham. part of the application appears to be in lee harvey oswald's own handwriting or printing. mr. jenner. was this application filled out in your presence? mrs. cunningham. that, i cannot recall, sir. mr. jenner. was it filled out as part of your interview that you then conducted? mrs. cunningham. that would depend whether i saw him on the th and the th, also, and i cannot be sure of that at this time. mr. jenner. does it indicate that the form at least was commenced to be filled out on the th, and that in any event, most of the information thereon was recorded on the th and the th of october ? mrs. cunningham. or thereabout, because our practice is--if we have a current date that we did not redate every day--the individual is in--on the application form, you see. mr. jenner. would it indicate at least reasonable certainty in your own mind that he was in your own office on the th day of october ? mrs. cunningham. yes, sir; and that i talked with him. mr. jenner. yes. mrs. cunningham. the greater part of the information concerning his reputation and training is in my handwriting. mr. jenner. and that would indicate that you obtained that from him when you interviewed him on the th of october ? mrs. cunningham. yes; it also indicates that i used one of our counseling tools, an interest checklist. mr. jenner. explain what that is. mrs. cunningham. it is a form which asks for quick decisions about a person's interests, like or dislike or question about sample jobs or work and it is the relationship of the individual's interest to groups of jobs. it would further indicate that on the th of october in , i learned from him that he had taken our general aptitude test battery in the fort worth office. mr. jenner. now, your general aptitude test battery is something distinct from the short form of test you just a moment ago mentioned, is it? mrs. cunningham. yes, sir; it is a correlated tool--the interest check list delves into interest. the general aptitude tests battery is a measure of aptitude. mr. jenner. now, would you tell me what the results of the inquiries as to the interests tests were? mrs. cunningham. there is no indication on this form, and i would not have detailed recollection of it, sir. mr. jenner. do you have any kind of recollection, detailed or otherwise? mrs. cunningham. to tell you the truth, unless i saw it--i saw i.c.l. here--i would have been uncertain whether i used this counseling tool. mr. jenner. mrs. cunningham, this is mr. robert davis of the attorney general's office of the state of texas. mr. davis. thank you so much for coming today, mrs. cunningham. mr. jenner. do you have any recollection of the subject of his interest tests? mrs. cunningham. i recall that there was some in the writing area. mr. jenner. this was an aptitude, a particular aptitude? mrs. cunningham. interest, sir; i am speaking of. mr. jenner. he had an interest in doing some writing? mrs. cunningham. yes. mr. jenner. do you recall your inquiries of him on that subject, how did you probe him in that connection? he had an interest, but the fact that somebody says he has an interest in doing something, that isn't sufficient for you, is it? mrs. cunningham. no, sir; but usually i use the aptitude test results along with the interests check list, and i could well have said something--"yes, you have the capabilities for writing, but this is in a job area where you are not likely to get a job quickly," and i did not probe, as you are saying, as to what he wrote about or anything of that kind, sir. mr. jenner. and you did not undertake a probing to determine whether it was merely an interest to go on to determine whether there was an aptitude coupled with it? mrs. cunningham. the aptitude test indicates that there is some because the verbal score is high and the clerical score is high, but my concern was primarily to meet this family's need. mr. jenner. the immediate need? mrs. cunningham. the immediate need for income, and the young man's apparent need for employment, and in the counseling service, i attempt to do two things. first of all, to help young people to find a vocational choice which may not be an immediate thing that they can get into, but then, secondly, basically--applicants come to us for a job and i use the interest check list and the general aptitude test battery in working toward both purposes, and if the job can be in line with their vocational choice--fine and good--but if it is an immediate need for employment, then the emphasis is toward what can you get with immediacy? what is available? where are your qualifications as of today likely to be used in the present labor market? and, basically, that is what i did with oswald, because as he was presented to me, that was the immediate thing--was at least to get this young man into work where he could support a family and himself, and i didn't even--i would at--i would say--attempt a vocational choice with him nor give that much time to lee harvey oswald. also, the test results can be used in exploring what are the most likely possibilities and can be helpful to our placement staff in knowing at least where this individual has the potential for serving an employer well, and that's what some of these indications at the lower part concerning the test data indicates. mr. jenner. now, would you please interpret that for me? what the tests indicate? now, you are interpreting here the tests made by the fort worth district office, are you? mrs. cunningham. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and you obtained those results by communicating with the fort worth office? mrs. cunningham. yes. mr. jenner. either on or prior to october , ? mrs. cunningham. subsequent to - - . mr. jenner. and when you got those results, what did you find in interpreting them? you see, the reader of this transcript will look at these forms and see nothing but figures. mrs. cunningham. yes. mr. jenner. what do they mean? mrs. cunningham. have you identified this form? mr. jenner. yes; the form you now hold in your left hand, which i have marked as cunningham exhibit no. , we have identified as "individual aptitude profile" and we have read into the record the figures sequentially occurring at the bottom, beginning with figure and ending with . [the original of cunningham exhibit no. is in evidence as cunningham exhibit no. -a.] mrs. cunningham. have you used this data here at all? mr. jenner. mr. statman said you would be better able to interpret than he, and he suggested that when you testified that i ask you to do that. mrs. cunningham. very well, sir. to the right of the form we were just speaking of---- mr. jenner. in the vertical column? mrs. cunningham. under the headings "oap". mr. jenner. meaning? mrs. cunningham. occupational aptitude pattern--the numbers of the patterns which are circled are the ones in which the applicant has made the minimum scores or above, and are indicative of strength for various patterns of occupations. mr. jenner. now, various patterns--aptitudes for various occupations? mrs. cunningham. yes, sir. you will see that if i copied correctly, the entries on the face of the application card are those which are circled on the test record, and are the ones that he had potential in those patterns--"jobs for occupational patterns." mr. jenner. and in which did he have potential and which were indicated as deficiencies or weaknesses, if any? mrs. cunningham. of the patterns, then being used by the employment service, there were only three in which he did not meet the minimum requirements. mr. jenner. and those three? mrs. cunningham. or , , , , and . mr. jenner. you have just called off numbers that are encircled on the exhibit "individual aptitude profile"? mrs. cunningham. no, sir; they are struck off. mr. jenner. and they are stricken off for what reason? mrs. cunningham. because the applicant's scores did not meet the minimum standards to qualify for those occupational aptitude patterns. mr. jenner. what occupational aptitude patterns are indicated by the numbers you have read which in turn were stricken off on that exhibit? mrs. cunningham. i'm sorry, sir; i cannot at this point answer that because we are using a new manual with new occupational patterns and there are a number of the detailed jobs in these patterns, and i could not even expect to carry the whole matter in my head. mr. jenner. all right. mrs. cunningham. if you like--i shall talk a little about this. mr. jenner. now, before you go to the bottom line, there are numbered aptitude patterns that are encircled. that means that the applicant had the minimum aptitude for each of those that are encircled? mrs. cunningham. yes, sir. mr. jenner. since you were not able to tell me what the aptitudes were in which there was an indicated deficiency by the striking of the number, i assume you are not able to tell me what the aptitudes were that are encircled, in which he did score in them. mrs. cunningham. not in detail. mr. jenner. are you able to do some interpreting? mrs. cunningham. yes. mr. jenner. would you do so? mrs. cunningham. perhaps i should talk about the next two columns to the right here. mr. jenner. you are still talking about the same exhibit? mrs. cunningham. yes--note that the date on this is - - . mr. jenner. that's october , . mrs. cunningham. and these are three specific tests which are set into the testing program in the dallas clerical and sales office. comparing the standards of those specific tests with the report as given from the fort worth office, i chose three of them--the b- , which is a general clerical--a general office clerk is the designation of it; by bx- , and a b- . if my recollection serves me properly at the time of this interview, the b- was aptitude for entering drafting. the bx- is an experimental test for claims examiners in the insurance industry. on each of these three specifics, he scored high. mr. jenner. what led you to select those, as to this man? mrs. cunningham. basically, it's usually done in relation to his interests, and because of jobs available in this labor market or possibly available. for instance, the clerk general office cuts across all industry, and strength in it can be used in a number of industries, and in a number of work situations. mr. jenner. yes. mrs. cunningham. we have a lot of insurance and insurance firms here. the claims examiner is not usually a beginning job, but it is some indication that a young person can start in the clerical field and perhaps move in this direction in the insurance industry. i would assume that there was a relationship to some discussion of this experience and training in the military corps in the electronics and radar that suggests the drafting or because i knew of some possibilities in that area. i see nothing in what i have recorded about the high school training which would so indicate that. mr. jenner. all of these records that have been placed before you, being three in number, do you interpret them indicating anything other than--i do not mean to be deprecatory here, that this man had about a high school education. mrs. cunningham. sir, i accepted his statement that at some time and some place, usually when the young man is in the armed services, he had taken the high school equivalency test and had passed it. there is nothing from the aptitude scores that would lead me to believe otherwise. in fact, there are some things in it that would tend to say that he could do college work. mr. jenner. indicate that, please--what leads you to say that? mrs. cunningham. well, the "g" score, which is a general ability and not an iq score, is above . we have certain standards that we carry in the back of our head that that says--yes. mr. jenner. it says--yes--what? mrs. cunningham. college capabilities. mr. jenner. all right. mrs. cunningham. other factors being equal, of course. the verbal is quite high--this is one of the learning tools, exact knowledge of words and word meanings. mr. jenner. and his score in that connection was? mrs. cunningham. . mr. jenner. you say this is quite high--what is an average? mrs. cunningham. we are told that about percent of the people who take this test score and below, and the other percent of necessity and above--the break point is. we are warned against, however, looking at any one of these items and considering it alone, except as we were talking of possibility for college training altogether. mr. jenner. his score in the first category you have mentioned was what? mrs. cunningham. . mr. jenner. that is close to the minimum? mrs. cunningham. no, sir. mr. jenner. explain that. mrs. cunningham. you said "the minimum"? mr. jenner. the minimum necessary--is there a minimum standard? mrs. cunningham. a necessary for what, of course, is the immediate question. mr. jenner. well, for you to decide, for example, "well, this man does have capability for college study." mrs. cunningham. i have not reviewed these figures that are in our manuals recently, but if i recall correctly, is thought sufficient to do a junior college or possibly in some--a -year course; that about is required on the "g" score for professional schools, and is quite good for finishing a -year college. as you see, this score is close to that, and we consider the test only about percent of the total in making decisions about vocation and it is not the biggest factor. mr. jenner. off the record a minute. (discussion between counsel jenner and the witness, mrs. cunningham, off the record.) mr. jenner. now, i think we had better be on the record on this. mrs. cunningham. none of our tests are personality tests. mr. jenner. you see, i want you to tell me what these are, and if i misinterpret them, i want you to correct me. it is important that we know what testing was done and that we don't misinterpret it ourselves. now, is any of this a personality test? mrs. cunningham. no, sir; none whatsoever. it is aptitude--it is an interest checklist and i am an employment counselor only, and that is why you got part of the answers from me a while ago, was that i was limiting it to that segment of counseling which presumably is my specialty, and for which i am paid by the texas employment commission. in general, i would say that the tests indicate potential for quite a broad number of jobs--certainly in the semiskilled and skilled occupations. mr. jenner. would these be a potential with training? mrs. cunningham. yes, sir. certainly i have indicated the areas in the clerical field by the tests that i selected and most of the drafting jobs, of course, are semiprofessional. i did not apparently think that these others were important at the time or i would have given other classifications. mr. jenner. other classification tests? mrs. cunningham. no, sir; i'm sorry--i am throwing you on terminology. this indicates where the application is held. mr. jenner. would you tell us what you mean by "this"? mrs. cunningham. the words "routine clerical work-- -x . " is a classification of the application in the area where the application will be held by the placement interviewers for referral on jobs. mr. jenner. this represents an entry based on your judgment in interviewing? mrs. cunningham. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and that is your personal entry and your handwriting? mrs. cunningham. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and what does that job classification mean and what degree of aptitude, if any, does it indicate? mrs. cunningham. on the entry level. mr. jenner. just the entry level? mrs. cunningham. into routine clerical work--it covers a lot of jobs and a lot of work circumstances. mr. jenner. now, i ask you this--there is a surface inconsistency between that particular classification you gave him and your testimony with respect to his capabilities to do college work. i say there is a surface inconsistency, would you explain that? mrs. cunningham. yes, sir. to enter professional jobs, usually the employers require more training or experience in the area of the profession. the availability in this labor market of clerical jobs to a newcomer into the labor market area is very much greater and, therefore, the job opportunities for this young man in a clerical entry job would be much brighter than in an entry for a professional job. mr. jenner. so, i take it, then, in that classification as dictated by your knowledge of the available labor market, this was an area which at the time seemed to afford greater opportunity for placement of this young man immediately. mrs. cunningham. yes, sir. mr. jenner. having in mind the information related to you by mr. meller, that there was dire need for financial assistance here. mrs. cunningham. yes. mr. jenner. and the other aptitudes you recorded on his ability you thought to do college work--those are not inconsistent with the classification you gave when you considered the whole problem that was facing you at the immediate time. mrs. cunningham. then i was talking about the potential only for the future, he had not even started college--a college training, by the record as i was giving it, sir, and because there is nothing as presented in the work history when i first worked with him which would indicate that he had ever worked at a professional or semiprofessional level that would give strength to a professional classification, and remembering, too, that the aptitude test is really only about percent of the decision as to where this individual shall seek as of this time in this place---- mr. jenner. the other factors being for one instance--one, the ready labor market, and two, the immediate need, if there is an absolute immediate need, and what other factors? mrs. cunningham. previous work experience--a good work record within the present labor market can be a big factor. any employer, as you well know, would much prefer to pick up the phone and call for a reference than to write to podunk and maybe get a communication and maybe not, and they don't know really what that firm is or with whom he is communicating, and i would say in general, and this is a personal judgment, that the incoming person to a labor market has to take the lower pay, the less desirable job, until he gets a work record in the community, unless he is highly qualified and in one of the shortage occupations. mr. jenner. and from your visit with this young man, he had not much of a work record, do i fairly state that? mrs. cunningham. the work record when he came to me was limited in length of time as indicated on the application. it was mixed, as far as occupation was concerned in the semiskilled, in the sales, in the clerical. mr. jenner. that is, he had a semimixed work record involving one or more of the three major groups you have now mentioned. mrs. cunningham. yes. mr. jenner. your answer was "yes"--when you nod your head, we can't get it on the record. mrs. cunningham. i thought i had said it was broken and limited, so, "yes" is the answer. mr. jenner. all right, you go right ahead, you are doing fine. mrs. cunningham. please note that in the work record there is an entry subsequent to when he was counseled, and that is in the semiprofessional or professional, if anyone would look at it. mr. jenner. you say "subsequent," does that mean a later time or subsequently during the course of the interview you had with him? mrs. cunningham. no, sir; at a later time. mr. jenner. when? mrs. cunningham. as indicated on the record it is months to july of in photography. mr. jenner. and he had the experience for that length of time somewhere? mrs. cunningham. it indicates that it was in new orleans with william b. reily co. mr. jenner. and he reported that as having been experienced in what connection? mrs. cunningham. looking at the subsequent dating of the application card, it would appear that this was recorded in october . mr. jenner. now, that is important and i am interested in that. in october , which was a year subsequent to your interview, which had commenced at least on october , , does it appear from those forms that he again returned to the dallas office to make a work application? mrs. cunningham. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and did you again counsel with or see him? mrs. cunningham. no, sir. i did not know until after the president's assassination that he had recontacted the office after these october interviews of which we have been talking. mr. jenner. is there a record on any one of those exhibits of the number of applications that he made and when those applications were made in the sense of his personal appearance for the application? you have mentioned one, that is your own, that was generated by mr. meller? do your initials appear there, or do you just happen to recall that? is there something on the form in the way of your initials or signature that indicates to you that you did that? there appears on the reverse side of the form, e- , (cunningham exhibit no. ) in the handwriting, the word "cunningham." is that in your handwriting? mrs. cunningham. yes, sir. mr. jenner. there appears above it, and also is a signature--are you familiar with that signature? mrs. cunningham. yes. mr. jenner. whose is it? mrs. cunningham. it is of a counselor, at least presently a counselor, in the industrial office. mr. jenner. of the texas employment commission? mrs. cunningham. of the texas employment commission in dallas. mr. jenner. is there any significance in the fact that his name appears above yours or yours below his? mrs. cunningham. yes, sir. mr. jenner. all right, tell us about it. mrs. cunningham. this brings to mind that in seeking the records for this applicant, because--i guess the mellers must have said "he has already been down to the texas employment commission office and has not gotten a job," then, i started trying to find the records, so i did not duplicate, and i am uncertain whether this is the record that mr. brooks transmitted to our office or not. mr. jenner. who is mr. brooks? mrs. cunningham. the counselor in the industrial office. mr. jenner. here in dallas? mrs. cunningham. here in dallas. mr. jenner. and you are in what office here in dallas? mrs. cunningham. clerical and sales. mr. jenner. so that your counseling and your examination is directed primarily to clerical and sales? mrs. cunningham. sir, i would not agree fully with that. we take the public as it comes to our door and it is entirely possible for me to have an applicant arrive where i could decide that he was better served in another office and would transmit records and suggest that the applicant call at that office. in the dallas organization we have our offices organized around occupations basically, and in our particular building, as you may have been told, we have a professional office and the clerical and sales office. we also have an industrial office. mr. jenner. in the same building? mrs. cunningham. no, sir; at ross street, and this original application card could have come from there to our files. mr. jenner. and is the fact that your signature appears under mr. brooks' signature indicative of that likelihood? mrs. cunningham. yes, sir; by location it would be. these comments that are above mr. brooks' are in my writing. mr. jenner. they are? mrs. cunningham. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and those comments are under the classification headed or entitled, "applicant's characteristics--well groomed and spoken. business suit. alert replies. expresses self extremely well." that's in your handwriting? mrs. cunningham. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and you made that record after you had interviewed mr. oswald? mrs. cunningham. perhaps after at least the second interview when i had had the tests results. usually, i try to hold it until i more or less synchronize the information that i get. mr. jenner. in any event, that records your reaction of him at that time? after you had the interview or interviews with him? mrs. cunningham. yes, sir. mr. jenner. now, above that, under the heading, "conditions affecting employment," there appears--would you read each line, and as you read it, is that in your handwriting? mrs. cunningham. yes, sir; "bus transportation." mr. jenner. bus transportation meant what? mrs. cunningham. that he did not have a car and driver's license, and so consequently, he would have to use public transportation in seeking a job. mr. jenner. you interest me; you say he did not have an automobile or driver's license. did you make inquiry on that subject--did he have a driver's license? mrs. cunningham. the front of the card--there are entries above the word "car--no" the license that we usually use here is a driver's license; then the word "none" is in front of it. now, i didn't know who made these entries. they could have been made by oswald or they could have been made by mr. brooks, if this is a photostat of the card which mr. brooks first worked with. can you see that? mr. jenner. yes; i see what it is. that's what mr. statman said in his testimony and in any event, from examining the card and your interview, it was your impression on that day that he did not have a driver's license? mrs. cunningham. yes. mr. jenner. is that correct? mrs. cunningham. yes, sir. mr. jenner. but you don't recall you made a specific inquiry on the subject? mrs. cunningham. no, sir; what is on the card would tend to indicate that i took it as it was recorded and that i did ask whether he had to use the bus to get to and from work--to--yes. mr. jenner. now, the next line in your handwriting reads---- mrs. cunningham. "wife and child" and in parenthesis " months" which indicates the information i was given about the age of the child as of that date. mr. jenner. the child was months old? mrs. cunningham. yes, sir. mr. jenner. when did you make the entries about which i am now examining you? mrs. cunningham. in october . mr. jenner. at that time this child was more than months old? mrs. cunningham. i could have recorded it wrong. i could have been informed wrong. mr. jenner. let me see--i will withdraw that--i may be wrong. mrs. cunningham. i don't even know enough to check on it. mr. jenner. that's what you recorded, in any event? mrs. cunningham. yes. mr. jenner. and you would have received that information from him? mrs. cunningham. yes, sir. mr. jenner. the next line? mrs. cunningham. "outstanding verbal and clerical potential." that comes from what i was seeing on the test scores. it is to alert the placement worker of where the counselor finds his greatest potential to be through the testing. mr. jenner. all right. next line. mrs. cunningham. "financial position necessitates immediate employment." mr. jenner. and that in turn affected what i might describe as being your immediate classification of him? mrs. cunningham. yes. mr. jenner. and has a bearing on that--is there another line in your hand? mrs. cunningham. yes, sir. mr. jenner. what is it? mrs. cunningham. "brother--junior executive, acme brick" and the second line entry---- mr. jenner. that would have been information you received from him? mrs. cunningham. yes. "brother--staff sgt. air force." mr. jenner. does that indicate to you two separate brothers? mrs. cunningham. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and that is information that he afforded you? mrs. cunningham. yes, sir. the next entry is " - - ." mr. jenner. all right, that is days later? mrs. cunningham. it sounds like to me the first day i saw the boy, or the second day. mr. jenner. yes; you are right. mrs. cunningham. "hpc" for my initials, and a "b" with a circle in it. mr. jenner. meaning what? mrs. cunningham. i'm sorry--i'm not certain as to why that "b" was recorded there. we do use or did use, an a, b, c, d, e, f, for the kinds of problem and it could have been that, but i am unsure of what that entry means. mr. jenner. what were your a-b-c problems? mrs. cunningham. this gentleman is going to ask me to remember the whole manual this afternoon. "a" is little or no work experience, and entry into the labor force basically, with no vocational choice. "b" is an entry into the labor force or relatively so, or re-entry with a questionable choice. mr. jenner. you mean questionable choice in what sense? mrs. cunningham. that the applicant says, "i want to be a lawyer," and you say, "are you ready, what training do you have, what is the indication?" mr. jenner. your questionable choice, therefore, is a question on your part as to his capability to attain that which he desires? mrs. cunningham. which is an expressed desire, but you see, sir, i do not have my basic counseling record among these papers and this is part of the reason that i am uncertain here. if i had the comparable and complete record, i could better answer the present question. mr. jenner. what is your best recollection? mrs. cunningham. i have no definite recollection of what the boy asked for, as far as an occupation is concerned. mr. jenner. he wanted work immediately, you were also attempting to determine what he was seeking ultimately and your judgment of his capabilities to accomplish that which he sought ultimately; am i correct? mrs. cunningham. yes--but i again remind you that i did not attempt with oswald the full counseling service, because i placed emphasis on the immediate with him. mr. jenner. well, that's important to me. mrs. cunningham. yes, i'm sure it is. mr. jenner. what is "c"? mrs. cunningham. "c" is expressed change of occupation for a variety of reasons. mr. jenner. a desire to change whatever occupation he had been pursuing? mrs. cunningham. and in that case it is presumed that the person is fully qualified in an occupation from his work experience. mr. jenner. if a counselor reached the conclusion that he was not qualified or needed further training or you had any question about it as to the other occupation or the change of occupation the applicant desired, would you then classify him under "b" rather than "c"? mrs. cunningham. no, sir; because as a counselor, i am applicant-and-individual oriented, and i guess as a counselor also, i work under the philosophy that the individual has some choices of his own and the best that i can do is give him information, use what tools and what knowledge i have gotten out of training and experience to help him to make the best choices, but the decisions basically are the applicant's. mr. jenner. did you say there was a "d" classification? mrs. cunningham. yes; there is a "d". mr. jenner. what is that? mrs. cunningham. i'm sorry, i cannot bring it to mind at the moment. there is an "e" and an "f" and a "g". the "f" is emotional problems, which were not apparent in this young man to me in the few times that i saw him. he was well contained, well spoken, and did not give any information, as i recall, except what i referred to. as i see his mother on television, this interviewee seems to me, and i have to use that verb, that there is a certain same kind of firmness in the individual there, and certain capabilities there, and to use words well. mr. jenner. on the part of mrs. marguerite oswald? mrs. cunningham. yes, sir. mr. jenner. do you notice any personality quirks or qualities or attributes in marguerite oswald as you observed her on television and her son, lee harvey oswald? mrs. cunningham. there is a driving in the woman that i did not see in the son. there is a strident of voice in the mother as she comes through to me on television that was not in the son. he was very self-contained. i didn't probe for information because i was trying to meet the immediate need and to deal with the employment problem, only, sir, and then we also have workload and time pressures on us, as you well know in any job there are that. we have applicants who are waiting to be interviewed and i guess now, with hindsight, i'm sorry that i didn't--but that's hindsight. mr. jenner. do you have capabilities in that area? mrs. cunningham. sir? mr. jenner. do you have capabilities in the area of inquiry into personality--when i said "capabilities"--first, do you have any training in that area? you necessarily have some experience, i am sure--formal training, let me put it that way. mrs. cunningham. yes, sir. mr. jenner. i'm going to get into your overall training in a little bit. mrs. cunningham. i hesitate to say this, because the pressures are with us in the texas employment commission, to do a limited job on the vocational employment thing, because that is our emphasis and that is as right, but i have to say that i think a life is a unit and that you can't take a slice out of it and look at it alone and be very effective, nor that a human being can cut away from all his past, nor his associates, nor the other things that are affecting him and so i try to approach an individual, when time permits and when it seems like it might be effective in his vocational life, to get some information about other parts of his life. mr. jenner. all right. now, i got you off on this because i asked you what the "b" in the circle meant--may we go back to that? mrs. cunningham. i thought i had answered completely. mr. jenner. i think you have, but as i say, i got you off on it when we reached that point--i interrupted you. mrs. cunningham. the entries on the application form, e- (cunningham exhibit no. ) below "do not write below this line"--none are in my handwriting and they are not counseling records. they are referral placement records. mr. jenner. now, does the recording there indicate a reference of a job to the applicant and the result of that reference--what happened after the reference was made? mrs. cunningham. the record is not absolutely complete, but in general--yes--and some line entries--yes. mr. jenner. would that form necessarily indicate if the applicant refused the position as distinguished from the possibility, for example, that the employer, when he interviewed the applicant, concluded that he did not wish to employ him? mrs. cunningham. there is some indication of each, yes. mr. jenner. now, taking those entries, would you comment on each of them in that respect, taking them seriatically and tell us about it. mrs. cunningham. on the first line entry, in the column headed "call" there is a dash. that indicates to me that the applicant was not called in, that he was in the office and referred to the placement section. on the same line, under the word "referred" there is a date-- - , which is struck through, and above that is written " - " and then under the heading, "employer or agency," i am reading the entry there, "harrel and harrington, architects;" under job title or purpose, the word "messenger"; under the abbreviation for duration, the letter "p" which indicates a permanent job; under "pay", i am reading $ . . mr. jenner. per hour? mrs. cunningham. the hour is not indicated--that is inferred. there is no entry under "results". on the same line under "remarks" are the initials "ll". mr. jenner. whose initials are those? mrs. cunningham. placement worker who was with us formerly, whose name is louise latham. mr. jenner. she was with you until yesterday? mrs. cunningham. well, i knew it has been an off again and on again situation--so you are more current than i about even in my own agency. shall i begin on the next line? mr. jenner. now, as far as that reference is concerned, there is nothing recorded as to what the result of that reference was? mrs. cunningham. that is right. after having seen it, my recollection was that the boy was not hired. mr. jenner. that was the decision of the employer? mrs. cunningham. yes, sir; and that is the information that would have come through me, either from talking to the placement worker or to oswald on a second interview, you see? mr. jenner. the cause for that doesn't appear--of course, it may be that when he got there the job was filled or anyone of a number of reasons? mrs. cunningham. since it is a blank entry, the applicant could not have reported, or the employer had rejected him, or he had seen other applicants and chose from them. mr. jenner. all right. let's go to the next line. mrs. cunningham. under the column "call"-- - - . mr. jenner. that indicates what? mrs. cunningham. that he was called by telephone message, because there is a "tm" above the date. mr. jenner. that means "telephone message"? mrs. cunningham. i think that i am correct that that is the meaning there. under the "referred"--nro. mr. jenner. what does that mean? mrs. cunningham. no referral offered. mr. jenner. what does that mean? mrs. cunningham. that in trying to fill an order of an employer, the placement interviewer called in a given number of applicants, in trying to find one who would meet his specifications after reviewing application cards (referring to form e- ; cunningham exhibit no. ), and i would read it that the applicant replied that he came to the placement worker, that in the discussion the placement worker made the decision not to refer him. mr. jenner. is there a recording there of what the prospective reference would have been? mrs. cunningham. yes--employer agency: the dallas transit. mr. jenner. for what position? mrs. cunningham. messenger, and i cannot read something in parentheses after that--"permanent duration"--i judge it to be $ a month. mr. jenner. all right. mrs. cunningham. there is nothing in the result column. mr. jenner. whose initials? mrs. cunningham. i'm sorry, i cannot distinguish them. mr. jenner. all right. mrs. cunningham. however, there is the date-- - , and i can't read what is above the date-- - . mr. jenner. is that on the same line? mrs. cunningham. yes; i think. mr. jenner. let me see if i can read it--could that first word be "working" and then there is some initial following - , the first of which appears to be "w", the next is "t", and the next is "f". mrs. cunningham. i wouldn't risk a guess at either one of those, sir, because i am not acquainted with this handwriting and it is not mine. mr. jenner. all right. go to the next line, please. mrs. cunningham. the next line--there is a dash under the word "call", "referred"--there is a date - , there are no other entries on that line. mr. jenner. so, what does that mean to you? mrs. cunningham. well, it can mean a number of things. mr. jenner. all right. mrs. cunningham. there is no indication on the front of the card to indicate that the applicant was in the office at that time. it can be that someone started an entry and never completed it, and i am sorry, i just don't know. mr. jenner. okay, let's get to the next line. mrs. cunningham. under "called"--the change of the year is indicated by having been written. mr. jenner. let's---- mrs. cunningham. under that is may and the letter "m" which indicates a call in by mail. we use a form. mr. jenner. does that mean the applicant called in? mrs. cunningham. no, sir. mr. jenner. that means the agency called him in by mail? mrs. cunningham. yes, just as the - - "tm" meant telephone message. mr. jenner. all right. mrs. cunningham. there is no entry under "referred". under "employer--agency" is texas power & light co. the job title or purpose is "meter reader." the duration is permanent, the pay is $ . a runover item in the "results" column is an e- . that is one of our form numbers which the employment service uses to inform the unemployment compensation office that an applicant who is a claimant was called but did not report or did not accept--or at any rate appears not to be available for referral to jobs. mr. jenner. could it be that there was no response to the mail notice? mrs. cunningham. yes, sir; it does mean that because there is no entry in the referred column, you see. mr. jenner. all right. mrs. cunningham. under the remarks are the letters "nr" which means "nonreport"--just what you were asking, and there is a repetition, if i am reading it correctly, of e- , which is the same entry we just spoke of and the date---- mr. jenner. one, which is a similar entry meaning the same thing as the previous one? mrs. cunningham. which is a duplicate entry--e- ? mr. jenner. i wanted to make clear that you weren't merely reading the same entry you read before. mrs. cunningham. no, sir; on the same line is written the date - - , which is days subsequent to when the card was mailed, wasn't it? mr. jenner. what was the date--may , ? mrs. cunningham. yes, sir. mr. jenner. all right. mrs. cunningham. and then in parentheses are written the words "moved--left no address" and there are two initials there that i cannot decipher. mr. jenner. i don't think i need to ask you to interpret that. mrs. cunningham. all right. mr. jenner. is there another line? mrs. cunningham. under the word "called" is - - --tm, indicating a telephone message under the column headed "referred" is - - . employer-agency--i read--"solid state electric; job title or purpose--sales clerk; duration--permanent; pay--$ a month; under "results"--"nh"--meaning, "not hired." under "remarks" is printed the word "direct," which i interpret to mean that our staff member did not make an appointment for the applicant but asked him to go directly to see the employer. mr. jenner. the "not hired" entry indicates what to you as to whether the employer rejected the applicant or whether the applicant declined their employment or any other reason. what did that indicate to you in this area? mrs. cunningham. ordinarily it means that the employer rejected the applicant and i am seeing that there was an erasure in this "nh" which looks as if it could have been "arj". mr. jenner. what does that mean? mrs. cunningham. that means "applicant rejected job," and frequently these kind of changes are usual happenings with us because we can always call an employer and check too quickly and he will say one thing, or if you talk to another person in staff they will say, "no; we didn't hire him." can you see how that would happen, sir? mr. jenner. yes; that combination with the erasure leads you to interpret that, that while there was initially a report that the applicant refused the job, on a further check it was ascertained that he was not hired, meaning that the prospective employer did not hire the applicant, rather than that the applicant rejected the position? mrs. cunningham. yes, sir. mr. jenner. is there another entry? mrs. cunningham. i think i got into the column under "remarks" and had explained the word "direct" before. mr. jenner. all right. mrs. cunningham. i'm sorry--i cannot read the entry under the word "direct." i can read the initials "rla", who is our mr. robert adams. mr. jenner. that is the man i examined this morning? mrs. cunningham. yes. mr. jenner. that means that robert adams handled that particular item? mrs. cunningham. yes, sir; and that he saw the applicant on that day and gave the referral. mr. jenner. all right. mrs. cunningham. in the next line under the word "called" is a dash, which indicates that the applicant was not called in, but probably appeared at the office and was routed back to the placement interviewer, and the date is the next day-- - - ; "employer agency is burton-dixie"; job title or purpose is "clerk trainee"; the duration is permanent; the pay is $ . , the results are "nh", which means "not hired." under "remarks" is "direct" and the initials rla which is our mr. bob adams. mr. jenner. all right. mrs. cunningham. under "called"-- - , with a "t," which means that he was called by telephone, under "referred" is - , which would indicate that he reported the same day, and under "employer-agency--trans-texas"; under "job title or purpose--cargo handler"; under "duration" is "p"--under "pay" is $ . mr. jenner. that's a month? mrs. cunningham. yes, sir; "result" is "nr". mr. jenner. what do you mean by that? mrs. cunningham. "nonreport." mr. jenner. that in turn means what? mrs. cunningham. that the applicant accepted the referral, led the placement interviewer to assume that he would see the employer, and that when the placement interviewer checked with the employer, he reported to him that the applicant had not reported. under "remarks"--working--i think it is : a.m., - . there is no indication of where working. mr. jenner. are there any initials there? mrs. cunningham. "rla." mr. jenner. that's the same mr. adams? mrs. cunningham. yes, sir. mr. jenner. that would indicate that when that reference was made, it was found that mr. oswald was already working somewhere else? mrs. cunningham. yes, sir; it would indicate that mr. adams very likely checked the following day in some fashion or it could be that oswald called mr. adams and reported that he was working. mr. jenner. this reference was made on what day, according to that record? mrs. cunningham. are you using the word "reference" as we use the word "referral," sir? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. cunningham. - . mr. jenner. and then there is an indication that mr. adams made a check on that reference the following day or the same day? mrs. cunningham. i am uncertain which it is referring to, whether he left the entry there--let me go back--"nr" that he called the employer on the th and recorded the "nr," or whether there was a conversation between him and oswald on th, from where he got the information he was working--i do not know whether he ever worked at trans-texas from this. mr. jenner. does this complete the entries under that section of the form? mrs. cunningham. yes, sir. mr. jenner. now, give me your impression of lee harvey oswald, as you recall him, doing your best to transport yourself back to the time that you had contact with him. mrs. cunningham. self-contained, able, perhaps not giving any more information than he was asked for, entirely presentable as far as grooming and appearance was concerned; there was nothing at all that i recall that was argumentative in my contacts with him. the general appearance was of, and what these records indicate to me, was of a young applicant with capability, not any sound or extensive work experience, the longest period of the training and experience was in the marine corps---- mr. jenner. and a limited education? mrs. cunningham. a limited education, but he had done something about it before he came to me or he wouldn't have a high school equivalency certificate, if he did have. at least, i had no reason to question that he did not have, after i got the test results from the fort worth office. mr. jenner. mrs. cunningham, would you tell me, please, your education qualifications for the work you are doing and your experience qualifications and what brought you into this field? mrs. cunningham. i have a master's degree from the university of missouri, which was granted in . it is a b.s. in educational and vocational guidance. mr. jenner. you have a master's--and you have a b.s.--did you say? mrs. cunningham. i have the b.s. and the master's subsequent to it and i have a b.s. in education from southeast missouri college in , which you see comes before this master's work. mr. jenner. yes. mrs. cunningham. i have taken some subsequent courses at night classes as i could at a variety of universities, st. louis university, washington university, in st. louis, at smu--a summer subsequent to the master's at the university of minnesota. mr. jenner. all in what areas? mrs. cunningham. the b.s. was education. mr. jenner. that was in ? mrs. cunningham. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and at southeast missouri, did you say? mrs. cunningham. yes; cape girardeau. and my undergraduate majors are math and science, i guess i've got one in english, too, that i picked up. mr. jenner. you graduated from college, then what did you do--there's years there i wanted to cover. mrs. cunningham. i taught school and went to school some summers, i did some social work during the depression days in the southeast missouri area. mr. jenner. i remember them--i was practicing law then. mrs. cunningham. you should have been down where they have good land and poor people, down in the boot heel of missouri. mr. jenner. in the wood river country? mrs. cunningham. in the boot heel of missouri where the mississippi and ohio come together. mr. jenner. i was down in the area where the mississippi and ohio come together forming the tip of illinois--down at little egypt. mrs. cunningham. in cairo? mr. jenner. yes, in cairo. mrs. cunningham. and part of the time i was a housewife. in i went to jefferson city where my husband was employed--this was jefferson city, mo. mr. jenner. that is the state capital? mrs. cunningham. yes. i was with the missouri employment commission and i worked in the central office there and he was a teacher in the public schools of the city and i went from there to the st. louis metropolitan office in the spring of , i think. mr. jenner. was that the opa? mrs. cunningham. no; that was the war manpower commission--really during the war period. you know, we moved from state to federal and then back to state--it was much easier going in than coming out--with the stroke of a pen--we were in. i moved with that agency, i guess, from interviewer to labor market analyst for that metropolitan area and then i taught awhile. there may have been a period where i was not employed, because mr. cunningham and i have had heavy family responsibilities on the other end of life from to the death of his mother this past christmas at , the same as churchill, and in , we came down here. i have basically worked for a. harris as an accounting clerk. in i had qualified under the texas law and had taken the examinations, and in august --i was employed by the texas employment commission as an interviewer of some variety. mr. jenner. and you have been at it ever since? mrs. cunningham. yes. mr. jenner. mrs. cunningham, does anything occur to you that you think might be helpful to the commission in these areas about which i have inquired of you which, due to my lack of knowledge of the facts or for any other reason i have not brought out, that you would like to volunteer and which you regard as pertinent to our investigation? mrs. cunningham. i've never really been into the investigation--of course, have never been into any kind which was of such grave importance as this, sir. i couldn't really make a judgment of what would be important to you. mr. jenner. well, i don't want you to try to make a judgment as to what would be important--all i said, is there anything you think is pertinent? mrs. cunningham. yes. i would like to say this: as i said to the gentlemen from the fbi who called me. i have not been close to the mellers recently. you see, this acquaintance came through our both working for a. harris. mr. jenner. for whom? mrs. cunningham. a. harris & co. mr. jenner. what business is a. harris? mrs. cunningham. a retail trade--it is now sanger-harris, one of the major department stores here, but i have no reason to believe otherwise that the mellers were good citizens and very grateful for american democracy. i rather suspect that the records show that i was a sponsor of mr. meller for his citizenship, and i think, having been one made me value my own greater, because i came down and sat in the courtroom and saw what it meant to incoming people. i also recounted to him that one time when we were playing tennis--mr. meller came to the court, and he said, "i have a letter i want to show you," in a state of excitement, and i said, "you have?" and he got it out and it was from the u.s. department of state, saying "you registered as an alien" at such and such address. "we have a request from australia of a sister or a woman who purports to be your sister, and she is asking for your address. do we have your permission to give it to her?" and then teofil said, "nowhere else in the world would any government be this considerate of me. i am only an alien." now, i haven't seen him because our paths haven't crossed very much in the recent years, but i think that that incident sticks with me because, again, i'm a stick in the mud--i have been in missouri and i have been to texas, and i just have to get some experience by reading and by studying and by talking with people, and other experiences, but when i worked at a. harris, i talked with some of the displaced people who had been through world war ii and through the horrors of that period and it was a broadening of my own experience. there was some gaining of some firsthand knowledge of the jewish people and their history. i read some in the area. i helped them a bit with their use of english in the trade and they were all apologetic to me for involving me, you see, and i said--well, i just accepted the boy as another applicant. mr. jenner. it was the normal course, as far as you were concerned? mrs. cunningham. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and you saw nothing that would lead you to believe it was other than the normal course as far as the mellers were concerned and they were activated by charity in their hearts and desire to help out? mrs. cunningham. that's right, and out of their own suffering. it is my observation that people who have suffered and who have helped to share, tend to do it a little more, probably, than those who have never known what it is to starve. mr. jenner. do you ever recall a conversation of whether the subject of mr. oswald's loss of these positions arose, and whether he said anything on that subject? mrs. cunningham. which positions, please, sir? mr. jenner. you interviewed him - --he had been employed prior thereto by leslie welding co., i think? mrs. cunningham. yes. mr. jenner. doing sheet metal work, he says, "made ventilators, cut sheet metal-- months"? mrs. cunningham. that is a fort worth employer, is it not, sir? mr. jenner. yes; it is. all i am seeking to do is to stimulate your recollection--if you have one--as to whether the subject ever arose in which he said he was having difficulty obtaining a position or retaining, either way, and whether he made any comments in that area? mrs. cunningham. no, sir; the entry which is on the application card in "reason for leaving" is "laid off." i do not know whose handwriting it is in, and i did not delve into that. mr. jenner. you didn't delve into that? mrs. cunningham. no, sir--that says, "dallas" doesn't it-- - . i was thinking it was a fort worth employer--i did not go into that, as i recall, sir. mr. jenner. i think it was a fort worth employer, as a matter of fact. mrs. cunningham. i don't know--why it seemed to stick in my head that that leslie welding was fort worth, whether he told me he had worked briefly in fort worth or how it got there. mr. jenner. you have no entries in any of those papers to refer to the fact that he had been in russia and that he returned from russia with his russian wife--why is that? mrs. cunningham. i think that in the kind of job we are in, sir; we never know who is sitting beside us. we are, as i say, a public agency and there is a certain amount of information that is supplied us by the applicant, and ours is not an investigative procedure. there is a certain amount of information that one accepts and works from, and i think that i would not have thought this a pertinent entry on this employment. he was back in the united states. i would work on the assumption that the federal government would know why he was back and had given him permission to be back. sometimes, with noncitizens, we ask for some kind of an emigration card or a visa and make that kind of an inquiry. this young man came to me, presented as an american citizen, the record indicated that; he had served in our armed forces and i guess that i would also add, rightly or wrongly, that in my judgment this could have blocked his getting employment here and if the employer learned it by questioning him when he was an applicant, he would make use of the information as he saw fit. basically, i try to assume that the other guy is telling me the truth and unless it is apparent that some things don't stack up, i don't probe and say, "now, what were you doing between so and so and so," or if there is a big gap which could indicate a prison sentence or hospitalization or what have you, i would probe there. if he has his dates befuddled, i may work with him to help him to recall or suggest to him that maybe some home work--he ought to write all this down so that when he is filling an application form out for work so that he can get it accurate. as you well know, this is not too cosmopolitan an area, with people with a lot of backgrounds in it, and you see "oswald" is not again a name that would indicate anything but an american background--the appearance of the american, his speech, and so i just give those two basic reasons. mr. jenner. did you inquire of him as to whether he spoke russian with a view in mind possibly of recording that as a job qualification? mrs. cunningham. no, sir; i did not. if he had been apparently a russian citizen or of russian derivation, i could well have done it, as i enter spanish, or polish, or german, and i would not think that russian would be very helpful because all of this background doesn't say--translator--or again any of the rare jobs or professional, does it, and that in our classification is professional work. mr. jenner. i can think of nothing else that has stimulated me to inquire further of you. i appreciate very much your coming over and this has been a helpful interview and at some inconvenience to you, i appreciate. you have been very helpful and very cooperative. now, you may read your deposition, make any corrections in it you wish, sign it and miss oliver will have it ready sometime next week. if you will call mr. barefoot sanders' office and speak with his secretary, she will let you know when it is ready to be read. mrs. cunningham. let me make a note as to when and where. mr. jenner. all right--she will have it for you, and thank you again very much. testimony of r. l. adams the testimony of r. l. adams was taken at : p.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. albert e. jenner, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. robert t. davis, assistant attorney general of texas, was present. mr. jenner. mr. adams, would you rise and be sworn, please? mr. adams. surely. mr. jenner. do you solemnly swear in the testimony which you are about to give on deposition that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? mr. adams. i do. mr. jenner. for the record, i am albert e. jenner, jr., one of the members of the legal staff on the president's commission, which, as i believe you know, was authorized to be created by senate joint resolution , and president johnson added to that legislative authority by an executive order appointing the commission and fixed its powers and duties. in general its duties are directed towards investigating all of the facts and circumstances surrounding the tragic event of november , , the assassination of president john fitzgerald kennedy. this has brought us as members of the staff and the commission itself to inquire into a rather wide range of circumstances, including running down a lot of things that have arisen by way of rumor and otherwise, to sort out the wheat from the chaff. one of the people towards whom our particular inquiries have been directed is lee harvey oswald, and we have testimony from a host of people who had some contact with him during his lifetime. the particular assignment of our division, mr. liebeler and i and others helping us, is of mr. oswald's life from the day he came on this earth until his death on the th of november . if i may ask you some questions--i understand you had some contact with him or in your official capacity in the texas employment commission, you in turn have people under your supervision and direction at least who had contact with him? mr. adams. yes, sir. mr. jenner. you are mr. r. l. adams of the texas employment commission, and is that located at elm street? mr. adams. yes, sir. mr. jenner. if you would, would you state your official position with the texas employment commission, please? mr. adams. i am employed as a placement interviewer. mr. jenner. and do you have persons under your supervision and direction? mr. adams. no; i do not. mr. jenner. tell me what is the texas employment commission? mr. adams. the texas employment commission is the texas version of the federal-state employment service. as such, it is operated and jointly federal-state funded, and seeks to assist those people who are unemployed primarily through finding employment for them and in the event that we are unable to do so, to provide them with unemployment compensation for such time as they may be eligible. mr. jenner. i happen to be an illinoian myself. i practice law in chicago--it's tied in with the unemployment compensation commission? mr. adams. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and those who had suffered unemployment seek the assistance of the texas employment commission to obtain for them new employment? mr. adams. yes, sir. mr. jenner. how does that operate, do you--do the employers register with you or they call you up--i would like to have you give me a normal operation so that we can compare that background on normalcy against what might have occurred with respect to lee harvey oswald. mr. adams. normally, employers in all categories of business and industry will use many avenues to obtain suitable employees. one of them, hopefully used by most of them, is the texas employment commission. mr. jenner. i said to you that my impression from the depositions we have taken is that your commission does have and is held in reasonably high regard by employers and the ones i have interviewed have indicated that they may resort to the commission rather frequently. mr. adams. i am delighted to hear it. it is a selling job--this is not your main thing, but because it is a state-federal organization, it has been subjected to a lot of unpleasant publicity which was formerly known as the texas unemployment commission, which did nothing to enhance it. i worked on the street for a while calling on businesses and more often than not i ran into people who were very dissatisfied with the commission because of previous poor service, or alleged poor service, and in the time that i have been with the commission, years, i think we have striven to improve the quality of service, both to employers and to applicants and so employers do call us. some of them have standing orders with us. some of them use us once and they don't get what they want and that's the last we hear from them, but by the same token we hope that all people unemployed would come to us in the course of their efforts to find jobs. i think many people mistakenly assume that tec exists to find them jobs. this is not true. tec exists to help them find jobs and in the course of their job seeking, they, i suspect percent of them, will register with tec and with other agencies. mr. jenner. other like agencies or private employment agencies? mr. adams. private agencies and, of course, we have the continuing battle of the public versus private activities. mr. jenner. the scope of employment, that is the work, is of great variety, is it, the jobs that are being served? mr. adams. yes; all the way from laborers up through doctors of philosophy in varying fields. mr. jenner. do you ever seek, for example, let's use a hypothetical day--you mention a doctor of philosophy--let's say he had a ph. d. in geology, and he came to the commission. you do not have at the moment, let us say, with respect to this hypothetical ph. d., an inquiry from a prospective employer. do you mean that the tec would in that kind of an incident--a man of quite high education, would you seek a position for him by calling possible employers? mr. adams. yes; we would do this and we refer to it either as job development or the projection of a highly qualified applicant to selected employers who might be in need of such a man. mr. jenner. when did you become employed by or connected with the tec, as you call it? mr. adams. well, i retired from the united states air force in january of , and attempted to be a salesman for about a year and thereby losing my hat and shirt, and i decided i had misused the talents that i had mastered in the service and returned to government service. mr. jenner. that was when? mr. adams. i joined tec on march , . mr. jenner. are you a native of this area? mr. adams. no, i am a chicagoan. mr. jenner. you are--so am i. i think i mentioned that. how old are you? mr. adams. i am , sir. mr. jenner. was there an occasion when in your position with tec you had some contact with lee harvey oswald? mr. adams. yes. mr. jenner. would you relate that and give all the circumstances as you now recall, in the chronology that you recall? mr. adams. i can't, except that my memory was refreshed by my office manager subsequent to the events of november . mr. jenner. having refreshed your recollection, do you now have a recollection? mr. adams. vaguely. mr. jenner. well, give us your best recollection--your best present recollection of this event and relate it. mr. adams. at the time that i--in september, beginning the second week in september of , i was brought in from employment service representative duties, which is going out and calling on businesses to gain some experience on a placement desk. after i had been there, well, when november the d rolled around and a couple of months--when this happened, the following monday morning when i came to work, i said, "i'll bet that boy is in my files." i went to check and i couldn't find any record of it and the office manager said, "what are you looking for?" and i said, "you know what i am looking for." and he said, "i've found it." mr. jenner. who is the office manager? mr. adams. mr. a. k. sayre [spelling] s-a-y-r-e. mr. jenner. is he still with the tec? mr. adams. he is still the office manager--yes, sir. mr. jenner. by the way, then, is there a lady there by the name of louise latham? mr. adams. she resigned from the texas employment commission effective yesterday, but she lives in the local area. mr. jenner. that is mrs. louise latham? mr. adams. yes; but in any event, i was concerned, quite frankly, that i might have referred him on a job, mr. oswald, on a job with the texas depository and my office manager assured me that i had not, but he said, "you did talk to him several times, what do you remember about it?" "did i make any written comments, good or bad about him?" and he said, "no, you didn't." and i said, "then my only recollection about him was he was a nonentity, just another applicant who was neither outstanding or, i mean--inadequate." mr. jenner. he made no impression on you? mr. adams. no. mr. jenner. what kind of records are kept with respect to job applicants, those who are seeking positions, and they are placed or not placed, what kind of record would i expect to find if i looked? mr. adams. well, there are several--one a lindex strip is at the receptionist which purportedly has a listing of all of the applicants who are currently registered with our office. then, for each applicant there are one or more application cards covering a primary code, an occupational code which is that code in which we feel he is best qualified, the additional cards being for secondary codes for other jobs for which he might be qualified for or which he may have performed in the past, so that there would be one or more application cards, a lindex strip, and the counseling records if the individual had been counseled. mr. jenner. now, assuming mrs. latham assisted lee oswald in obtaining a position, a record of some kind--some kind of a recordation of that fact would be made? mr. adams. yes, on the application--on the individual's application card, the face gives essential information as to names, address, telephone number, birthdate, height, weight, education, the job code to which he has been assigned, the high school from which he graduated, the college which he attended and/or which he graduated, special skills which he may possess in the use of business machines, and any hobbies which might be job oriented, such as skin diving and things of that sort, and the back side shows the jobs the individual has held, beginning with the most recent and going back to the most significant job he has held. inside the folded card, one-half of the upper half is for comments concerning availability of public or private transportation, the minimum salary the individual is willing to accept, any restrictions or qualifications the individual may place on employment. the other half of the upper portion indicates whether or not the individual has been counseled. it may include pertinent information such as the individual has been under psychiatric care, has a police record, anything which might be necessary in discussing this individual intelligently with an employer. the bottom half lists the referrals or attempted referrals of this individual for employment. each time an attempt is made to contact the individual, an entry will be made indicating the date when the contact is attempted, the method, that is, whether by telephone, by telephone message or by mail, the date on which he was referred, if he was referred, or if he was not referred, whether he refused the job or whether he was found not qualified; if he was referred, whether or not he was hired; if he was a claimant, whether or not--if he rejected the job--that information was sent to the claims office indicating that he had rejected employment or rejected an offer of employment, anything pertaining to this particular job offer is shown on a given line or lines, as it might be. mr. jenner. and are they now in the possession of tec, records of that character relating to lee harvey oswald? mr. adams. i don't know from my own knowledge, sir. mr. jenner. would mr. sayre know that? mr. adams. it is my belief that these records are in the hands of the fbi or secret service, but he would know. mr. jenner. were photostatic copies made, do you know? mr. adams. that, i don't know, sir. apparently, i did talk to him on the phone several times, because the card indicates that i had done so and i do not recall. mr. jenner. well, do you recall when you were interviewed by mr. odum of the fbi on the th of november ? mr. adams. yes, sir. mr. jenner. at that time you appeared to have a recollection of a telephone call from oswald on october , in response to a message of your own of october , . do you recall that incident? mr. adams. no, sir; i couldn't say that i positively do. if the record says i did, i did. mr. jenner. then, i take it, that a record of the transaction was made? mr. adams. yes. mr. jenner. if it occurred? mr. adams. yes. mr. jenner. and you have no recollection independent of that record? mr. adams. no, sir--if i might clarify that, sir, by saying that in the case of an applicant with whom one has repeated dealings, whether good or bad, these would stick. otherwise, one talks to anywhere to to applicants a day, day in and day out, personally and by telephone and with the exception of those applicants with whom i have had extensive dealings either because they are problem cases or because they are really outstanding good applicants, i don't remember that. if confronted by one, i could be able to say, "yes; i have talked to that man," but otherwise i couldn't. mr. jenner. you apparently indicated to mr. odum, a reference on your part on october , to solid state electronics co. of texas, do you recall referring him to the solid state electronics co. on or about the th of october ? mr. adams. i can recall having had that order because it was unusual in the sense that i had not dealt with an order of that type before from a company engaged in the sale of electronics parts who wanted an individual who had had some knowledge of electronics or electronics parts. presumably, if i referred to--mr. oswald, it was because his military or civilian background indicated he had had training in this field. mr. jenner. do you recall any more about that incident? mr. adams. no; i can't say i do, sir. mr. jenner. do you recall what the nature of the job was? mr. adams. as best i can recall, it was where--it was loosely what we called a parts counterman. mr. jenner. parts counterman? mr. adams. a sales clerk. mr. jenner. a sales clerk? mr. adams. yes; in sales. mr. jenner. do you recall what the salary was? mr. adams. it seems to me it was quite good for the dallas area. i would guess it was in the neighborhood of in excess of $ a week, it seems. mr. jenner. i take it that that reference was made to oswald then by telephone rather than his coming into your office? mr. adams. my policy as a placement interviewer, sir, is this: if i have once met an applicant and then there is not a long lapse until such time as i have an opening to discuss with him, or on which to refer him, i will refer him by telephone if i think he is otherwise qualified. mr. jenner. do you recall his coming into the office the th or the th of october? mr. adams. i couldn't honestly say that i do; no, sir. mr. jenner. would this registration card have some entry in that respect, if he came in? mr. adams. well, possibly. the policy in our office is that each month an individual should be contacted either by phone or in person. if a person is contacted more than once, either by phone or in person, only the initial date for that month is shown. it is repetitive and takes up a lot of unnecessary space. mr. jenner. does burton-dixie co. awaken or refresh your recollection in this connection? mr. adams. only to the extent that they are one of the employers with whom i have dealt. mr. jenner. yes? mr. adams. and, in making these referrals, i have found in my short time with the commission that it is not too wise to be bound entirely by the employer's stated requirements. i can best explain this by saying that as recently as yesterday i referred a young man on an order which i had had for a week and on which i had made prior referrals of individuals who, in my opinion, were at least as well-qualified and certainly made a better appearance and yet this last individual was the man who was hired. so, when i first determined this, i decided that i would not certainly make wholesale referrals without regard to the employer's requirements, but on the other hand, in any case where i thought the individual was such that the employer might see in him something that i did not see, i wouldn't take a chance. i would refer him if i felt he met any or many of the employer's basic requirements. mr. jenner. do you recall any incidents of any others in the agency who sought to assist oswald, of which you have any knowledge? mr. adams. yes, sir; subsequent to these incidents, i am aware that other people in the commission had talked to mr. oswald prior to november d. mr. jenner. but what you have stated is the extent of your contact with him? mr. adams. yes, sir; to the best of my knowledge. mr. jenner. i take it, and am i correct, that he was not employed or hired by the solid state electronics co. of texas on your reference? mr. adams. to the best of my knowledge he was not hired on any of the jobs to which i referred him. mr. jenner. and does the name trans-texas stimulate your recollection as to any possible reference? mr. adams. yes, sir; about--in late october or early november, trans-texas airways called mr. roy---- mr. jenner. who is mr. roy? mr. adams. he is not the station manager, he is the--i really don't know what his title is, but anyway, he deals with the people who are more concerned with servicing the aircraft than with passengers. anyway, he advised me that the company was contemplating expansion and he would need possibly as many as or ramp agents and--as they are called by the airline industry--we call them baggage, cargo handlers, and he gave me qualifications, minimum qualifications, to send out those who met the qualifications. mr. jenner. was lee harvey oswald one of those you sent out? mr. adams. if the record indicates, he was. mr. jenner. but here again you have no recollection beyond what the record shows? mr. adams. no, sir. mr. jenner. do you have any recollection as to salary, for example, as compared with that that you mentioned--you mentioned some kind of a figure, with respect to solid state electronics co? mr. adams. i think that the going rate of trans-texas then was $ a month plus overtime. mr. jenner. did oswald report on that reference? mr. adams. i don't know, sir. mr. jenner. would it refresh your recollection if i told you that he did not, and that he became employed by the texas state book depository on the th of october ? mr. adams. no, sir. mr. jenner. the incident to which you refer occurred the latter part of october or the first part of november, that is with trans-texas? mr. adams. as best i recall it; yes. mr. jenner. i would like to talk to mr. sayre--what is the telephone number over there? mr. adams. it is riverside - . the unfortunate thing about it, as i said, about being a placement interviewer is that unless there is something outstanding about the individual or something appears in the record it is just another applicant. mr. jenner. you interview a good many people every day, day after day, and unless something strikes you out of the ordinary with respect to a particular job applicant or unemployed person, that makes it stand out in your mind, you are unable to sort out or recall specifically? mr. adams. right. i could rattle off the names of half a dozen applicants who are ex-convicts, alcoholics, or either recovered from psychiatric treatment or who are presently undergoing psychiatric treatment, or when i look at their record i see consistent "no hire" or "failed to accept employment," but these people will stick with me, but if i recall, mr. oswald had not been registered too long or, beginning with my contact--my contact with him renewed his relationship with our placement office. in other words, as i try to visualize his card, i don't see a whole card full of entries--just a few up at the top. mr. jenner. there is one card for each job applicant? mr. adams. yes, sir; at least. mr. jenner. and if he has been back and forth a couple, of times there might be more than one card? mr. adams. if he was coded. for instance, suppose he said, "i have been a truck driver for years." i will say, "fine, you get an additional code for truck driving," which is a code, and this card, we would either send with him to the industrial office for placing in their files, or we would send it--he might say, "i will accept labor work," and we would say, "fine, we will send a card up to forrest avenue or to irving," whichever is the closest to where he lives or to dallas west. or, he might say, "i have a degree in economics," and we would say, "good, we will give you an " " code and send it upstairs to the professional office." so, conceivably, depending on the individual, he could have a half a dozen cards. in addition, if he had been job counseled, they would have a counseling record. fortunately, or unfortunately, the employment commission, the texas employment commission, and presumably, the other states, is not in position to do any checking on people. the only way we get any information, derogatory information, is either through the individual's disclosing it voluntarily, or through an employer saying, "i sent this man down for a truth verification test, and he busted it," and then we would say, "would you mind telling us what the information was, so that we may not use this against the individual and try to find out what his problem is and see if we can't help him with it." he might say, "no; i don't care to do that," and then we would say, "does it involve felony or is it a matter of personality, or what?" and they might say, "there is something odd about his personality," and we would say, "thank you." this is the only way we get any information and, of course, it sometimes backfires unfortunately. employers will assume mistakenly that anybody we send is as pure as the driven snow, and they may or may not be. mr. jenner. do you think of anything else at this time that might be helpful to the commission in this connection--what i am anxious to get is the history of this man at the texas employment commission. mr. adams. yes; i believe mrs. helen cunningham counseled him. i believed she counseled mr. oswald. mr. jenner. is she still employed by the commission? mr. adams. yes. mr. sayre is also her boss. mr. jenner. maybe i can get both of them over here this afternoon and take their deposition. mr. adams. it is my personal opinion that mrs. marguerite oswald is more to be pitied than censored, because if she had only taken the kid to the psychiatrist when they asked her to--of course, this might still have happened, but then again it might not. mr. jenner. and, of course, in a situation like this, mr. adams, there are all kinds of "ifs": if somebody had done this, if only this had been done. mr. adams. well, even the little contact that i had with him, i thought--was there something there i should have noticed and if i start letting this get on my back, i will start examining every applicant who comes in--he may be a potential fiend, "i'll have to watch you," and pretty soon i'll be talking to myself. mr. jenner. yes; you are always subject to the accusation of being a meddler. it is pretty hard to say just where the scope of your probing should go--a reasonable amount of probing should go and where you have to hold down the gate. mr. adams. the first i knew about it was when it came out in the paper that he had been a claimant. mr. jenner. yes; for unemployment compensation? mr. adams. right, from this district or fort worth, i don't know which one exactly. mr. jenner. by the way, do you have an office over in fort worth? mr. adams. yes. mr. jenner. do you have an office similar to this one, that is, that aids persons to obtain employment? mr. adams. yes; the state is divided into districts. the dallas district is unique in that it encompasses only dallas county. out in west texas, i guess, the districts encompass maybe or counties. mr. jenner. but fort worth's district--who is the general manager there? mr. adams. i don't know, sir. i have heard his name, but i can't recall it. mr. jenner. do you recall the telephone number? mr. adams. no, sir; i sure don't. whenever we have dealings with them at my level it is simply paperwork. you send a notice to them that we have these jobs available and employers ask us to start signing out from dallas to find--to try to find someone, we'll say, in a -mile radius, or in a -mile radius, as the case may be--it's all done by paper, you see. i'm sure mr. sayre would know the people to contact with them. whenever we do uncover any derogatory information, well, anything which leads us to believe that the applicant is not--does not appear to be the type of person that we should refer, we have no way--we are precluded from making any written comment. i would just say, "see adams before it is turned over." mr. jenner. and that means if an occasion arises to refer this man or he makes an inquiry subsequently, then anybody reading the card realizes that there might be something derogatory or at least something special, and they should come to you and talk to you about it? mr. adams. that's right; for instance, an employer will report that he thinks an individual is a sex deviate or something of that sort. now, in the naivete of the texas employment commission, i have made an entry, "employer reports that this individual appears to have undesirable traits of character," and they say, "oh, you can't put that in." mr. jenner. off the record. (at this point counsel jenner conversed by telephone to mr. sayre of the texas employment office.) mr. jenner. he said he turned over those records to the district office and he is going to run them down for me this afternoon and call me back. mr. adams. i remember reading the paper that on account of his having applied for unemployment compensation, he made a trip to corpus and then to mexico and came back--it was none of my business and i never did pursue it with the commission, but if he had nothing to draw on, he would certainly have applied for his unemployment compensation and it would have been recorded, whether here, corpus christi, or fort worth or where--the lord only knows--i don't know. mr. jenner. that's all that occurs to me, sir, and i appreciate your coming in and your help. mr. adams. i'm sorry i couldn't be more helpful. mr. jenner. well, sometimes you people think you are not more helpful, to use your expression, when, as a fact you are. mr. adams. i hope so. mr. jenner. it's hard to tell from your vantage point whether you are or aren't, but the fact you appear here and tell us what you know is always helpful. i appreciate it very much. mr. adams. i know it is like the intelligence business in the service, you take all the little pieces and piece them together, and you make a picture. mr. jenner. you have a right to read your deposition and to sign it, if you see fit, and you also have the right to waive that privilege if you wish. mr. adams. i would like to see it and i will sign it. mr. jenner. we will have it ready toward the end of this week or early next week, and if you will call the u.s. attorney, barefoot sanders, he will know whether it is ready for you to read and sign. thank you very much, sir. mr. adams. thank you. testimony of donald e. brooks the testimony of donald e. brooks was taken at p.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by messrs. david w. belin, albert b. jenner, jr., and wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. jenner. would you rise and be sworn, mr. brooks. do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? mr. brooks. i do. mr. jenner. mr. brooks, i am albert e. jenner, jr., a member of the legal staff of the warren commission. the warren commission was appointed pursuant to joint resolution , which authorizes the commission to investigate the circumstances surrounding the assassination of our late president, john fitzgerald kennedy, on november , , and then president johnson, pursuant to that resolution and executive order , appointed the commission and outlined its powers and duties and authorities. we have a legal staff authorized by the commission to come here, and other places in the nation, and make inquiry of persons who had some direct connection, or indirect, or whatnot, with the events, and also those who did, or might have had, some contact with one lee harvey oswald. mr. brooks. yes, sir. mr. jenner. in the performance of their official duties or otherwise, which we think might be relevant or pertinent to the inquiry we are making. it is my understanding that you had such a contact. do you reside here in dallas? mr. brooks. yes, sir. mr. jenner. what is your address? mr. brooks. dyer. mr. jenner. are you a native texan? mr. brooks. no; i was born in wichita, kans. mr. jenner. you came here when? mr. brooks. when i was about years old. mr. jenner. but since, you have been a resident in and about dallas? mr. brooks. i have been a resident of dallas since . mr. jenner. you are a married man? mr. brooks. yes; i am. mr. jenner. have a family? mr. brooks. yes; i have two children. mr. jenner. what is your business, occupation, profession, and with whom are you associated? mr. brooks. associated with the texas employment commission, and i am an employment counselor. mr. jenner. employment counselor? mr. brooks. yes. mr. jenner. how long have you held that position? mr. brooks. about a year. it will be years in july, actually, in this position. mr. jenner. so you became one in july of ? mr. brooks. yes, sir. mr. jenner. at the dallas office? mr. brooks. yes, sir; i have been in the dallas office. mr. jenner. do you function in any particular division of the dallas office of the texas employment commission? mr. brooks. yes; counseling department in the industrial office. mr. jenner. in the industrial office? mr. brooks. yes, sir. mr. jenner. now there are counseling departments, are there not, and divisions or offices other than the industrial? mr. brooks. there are people assigned to be employment counselors in the other offices. mr. jenner. in the course of that employment, did the occasion arise in which you met officially a man by the name of lee harvey oswald? mr. brooks. yes; he was referred to me by the placement division. mr. jenner. now give us the circumstances, first, so that someone reading the transcript will be able to comprehend the circumstances under which this young man was referred to you. mr. brooks. as i remember it, he was referred to me because he had shown reluctance to accept employment in the industrial field, and therefore, this is one of the reasons they send a man to the counseling division, and this is how he came to me. mr. jenner. came to your division? mr. brooks. yes. mr. jenner. i take it then that the texas employment commission--let's use a hypothetical now at the moment: assume there has been an applicant for employment. there appear to be positions open in the industrial field. the applicant indicates some reluctance to accept, to seek, at least, employment in the industrial field, but mentions preference for some other field. the fact that there is a reference to you does not necessarily mean, does it, that the applicant is one who is inclined to "gold brick" and is not really looking for a job? mr. brooks. nothing in conference like that. mr. jenner. tell us what the industrial field is? mr. brooks. the industrial field, of course, is primarily jobs with factories, actually. that includes skilled and semiskilled jobs, and also in our industrial office, truck driving and service station work is also included in this field. but primarily it is an office where the factory employer calls in for factory laborers, whether they be skilled or unskilled. mr. jenner. all right, now, yesterday mr. adams, mr. statman, and mrs. cunningham provided some records from the texas employment commission, and i notice that on one of them appears your name, don brooks, and that is what is referred to generally as an applicant card. mr. brooks. e- . mr. jenner. e- (cunningham exhibit no. ), and that the other witnesses generally refer to that as an e- card? mr. brooks. yes, sir. mr. jenner. now would you please examine that e- card, particularly the inside face which bears your signature. by the way, does that bear your signature? mr. brooks. yes, sir; that is my signature. mr. jenner. it says interviewer. where it says interviewer, there is a signature on the card opposite the word interviewer, and that signature in longhand is don brooks, and that is the witness' signature. there appears below that signature, the word "cunningham." she was in yesterday. that is a fellow counselor, also? mr. brooks. yes, sir; in the clerical and professional office. mr. jenner. professional and clerical? mr. brooks. yes, sir. mr. jenner. can you explain to us the coincidence of each of you having signed that form? mr. brooks. probably because this card was transferred over to the other office, actually. mr. jenner. from your office back over to mrs. cunningham? mr. brooks. and she signed below because--i wouldn't swear to this but evidently she made some more comments in here. mr. jenner. when an interview is held, do you interviewers make notations on this card? mr. brooks. what sort of notations? mr. jenner. the sort of notations that appear on the card now? mr. brooks. sure. we give applicant's characteristics usually, and then if there is any special information, we put it in on condition that it might affect employment. mr. jenner. is any of that writing that appears above your signature yours? mr. brooks. no, sir; i can't see any of my writing. mr. jenner. now examine--examining the bottom half of that application (cunningham exhibit no. ), is there any writing of yours on it? mr. brooks. no, sir; i don't recognize any of my writing on this at all in this section, where we send them out on the job. this is where usually the placement interviewer sends them on. mr. jenner. you are not a placement interviewer? mr. brooks. no, sir. mr. jenner. you are a counselor. so that on the inside of the card when folded, there is nothing in your handwriting on that card other than your signature, is that correct? mr. brooks. that is all i see, sir. yes, sir. mr. jenner. now would you turn the exhibit over. would that be the top portion when folded that you are now looking at? mr. brooks. yes; this is the face. mr. jenner. now on the face, which is the bottom half of the exhibit, is there any handwriting of yours? mr. brooks. yes, sir; i see some. looks like up in the left corner: i see high school, years in the area. service dates also. also a date over here, - - . mr. jenner. - - ? mr. brooks. yes, sir. mr. jenner. what does that indicate? mr. brooks. that means that he was in on that date, october , . mr. jenner. and that you interviewed him? mr. brooks. me; yes. mr. jenner. these notations that you have now identified, was that information he furnished you on that occasion? mr. brooks. yes; this is usually the primary interview. first day, actually. mr. jenner. now does this refresh your recollection as to what occurred after the interview of october , as to whether you had further contact with him, for example? mr. brooks. this evidently--i wouldn't want to swear to this. mr. jenner. you aren't certain? go ahead, but you say you aren't certain? mr. brooks. i know that he was referred to me, and that is all. i was the one that changed his occupation code. mr. jenner. would you explain that? mr. brooks. we assign an occupational code to our applicants, and these occupational codes refer to specific work, whether it is a trainee job or a semiskilled job or skilled job. and he had a previous code, i don't know what it is now, but this -x . . mr. jenner. now that is written in whose handwriting? mr. brooks. that is not my handwriting. mr. jenner. that looks like mrs. cunningham's. i think i can tell you that is mrs. cunningham's writing. that was an assignment of code made by whom? mr. brooks. i don't recognize her number. it was made by someone else other than me, actually. i had thought i gave him a code number but that is not my handwriting there. i am not sure about what code, i know i put him in the other office, which was our clerical. mr. jenner. after interviewing him you determined he should be classified in the clerical? mr. brooks. yes, sir; because he was interested. mr. jenner. and not classified in the industrial division? mr. brooks. yes; this was because of interests, primarily? mr. jenner. whose interests, his? mr. brooks. yes; his interests. mr. jenner. did you determine his interests after you had examined him and your judgment as to where best he might be able to obtain employment, having in mind those interests? mr. brooks. was not in the industrial office; yes, sir. mr. jenner. did he express an aversion to factory work? mr. brooks. i can't tell you the words, but i got this general impression, as far as i remember; yes, sir; and he did not want to do factory work. of course, we try to place an individual where he wants--will be exposed to his job. mr. jenner. do you have any recollection of who put on that same side of the folded card, the face, "lee oswald, west fifth street, irving, tex."? mr. brooks. right here, this lee oswald is, as far as i can tell, my handwriting, his name. west fifth street is someone else's handwriting. just like irving, tex. blackburn - is somebody else's handwriting. - - . mr. jenner. that is the social security number? mr. brooks. yes; as far as i can determine. this carbon makes it a little difficult. and the service date, and this where it says none, referring to driver's license. and car, no. those two are my handwriting, i am sure. mr. jenner. could i stop you there. the word "none," opposite or to the left of the word, "license," before which there also appears a square, directing your attention to that, is that "none," in your handwriting? mr. brooks. yes, sir. mr. jenner. what does that signify? mr. brooks. that he didn't have a driver's license. mr. jenner. that he didn't have a driver's license? mr. brooks. yes. mr. jenner. is that a square that you make normally? mr. brooks. yes. this is of importance especially in the industrial office because a lot of times a person working in a factory office might be required to sub in as perhaps a driver of machinery, and we always ask--pay attention to this, not because of texas, but because of commercial operator's license. mr. jenner. let me inquire of you a little further on that. does your inquiry go beyond asking whether he has a driver's license? that is, do you go on and ask whether he is able to operate a motor vehicle? mr. brooks. yes, sir. well, not necessarily. i mean, if he doesn't have a driver's license, he is not supposed to be driving, actually. mr. jenner. but he could get one the next day, couldn't he? mr. brooks. yes. sometimes i have gone further and asked, are you able to drive a car. i have done this on occasion. mr. jenner. do you have any recollection of whether you did that on this occasion? mr. brooks. no, sir; i might have and i might not have. i wouldn't want to swear that i did either one. mr. jenner. but your entry does indicate for certain that he did not have a driver's license, and you made inquiry on that subject? mr. brooks. yes. mr. jenner. all right, go on. maybe there is something else that you have written there to stimulate me to ask you something. mr. brooks. we have not covered my handwriting. unfortunately, my handwriting is pretty easy to see. i write big. now this--i am on the back of the card now. now this leslie welding co. in dallas, months, - , $ . an hour, sheet metal worker, mild ventilators, is in my handwriting. mr. jenner. is that something he told you? mr. brooks. yes. mr. jenner. by the way, was this form e- , made up in your office or made up in some other office? mr. brooks. the original must have been made up in my office. that is usually the procedure, actually. mr. jenner. do you recall whether you made inquiry of the fort worth office as to whether they had what you call this atb? mr. brooks. this is something--oh, you mean, test records? mr. jenner. yes. mr. brooks. no, sir; i didn't, i am sure of this. the other office, mrs. cunningham, might have, but i didn't. mr. jenner. do you have a mrs. louise latham? mr. brooks. yes. she works for the commission. she works in c&s. i am not too familiar. i believe she is a placement interviewer. mr. jenner. i notice on the bottom below your signature the last two lines appear the initials rla. is that probably mr. adams, the rla? mr. brooks. it might be and might not be. i am not too familiar with the person. i know who is over there. mr. jenner. do you recall anything about this young man? mr. brooks. no; i wouldn't want to say. the only thing i recall vaguely now--at the time when i was asked, i was surprised that i had taken his application. i had not remembered it at the time, actually. i had vaguely remembered the name oswald, but then--when i saw about it, i remembered that vaguely he was somebody referred to me from the placement, actually, and he didn't want, evidently did not want industrial work and he had an interest in clerical, and i gave him a clerical code, although the code number is not in my handwriting. mr. jenner. it is the classification you gave him? mr. brooks. i think that is the one i gave him. i am not certain, but i think that is the one i gave him; yes. i mean, to say anything further, i would have to perhaps look in the e- . mr. jenner. in whose handwriting are the entries appearing on the back of the card in the squares relating to summary of other work experience. shoe salesman, months, new orleans, la. general office work, year, new orleans, la., . mr. brooks. this is my handwriting. shoe salesman, months, louisiana, central office. general--excuse me, year, new orleans, . that is my handwriting. mr. jenner. did he supply that information? mr. brooks. yes; probably on the initial interview. mr. jenner. do you recall conversing with him or going back into his history when he was in the service or was married and where he had been? mr. brooks. i would not want to say if i did. i usually do. but, of course, i inquired evidently about the service or i have--i wouldn't have put the service date. mr. jenner. those service dates, where are they? mr. brooks. they are on the front of the card here; right here. mr. jenner. oh, yes. under the heading "entry on active service," october , . "released from active service," september , . but you do recall, or you wouldn't have made the entry "general office work, year, new orleans, la., "? mr. brooks. that is my handwriting. mr. jenner. that was made in the usual regular course of your business and in having an interview with this man? mr. brooks. yes; that is right. i put those dates there. mr. jenner. the back of the card, which is exhibit e- (cunningham exhibit no. ), when we look at that address, that is, lee oswald, west fifth street, irving, tex., that appears to have been written over something that had been erased first. mr. brooks. this is probably due to the fact that he probably moved. mr. jenner. moved? mr. brooks. yes, sir. we have to keep, we try to keep up our address dates as current as possible, because if we don't, there was no way to get in contact with the applicant. mr. jenner. i see another entry of - - , and then mrs. cunningham of - - , and then an entry or series of entries in october . would i be correct in supposing that when you interviewed him on the th of october , and put in whatever address he had at that time, and then later on in october , when he was again interviewed, he had a new address, and the old address was erased and the new address put in? mr. brooks. yes; that is the way it usually happens. mr. jenner. i will have to get the original to bring out that latent address. mr. brooks, you have been very helpful to us. mr. brooks. i wish i could remember more, actually. mr. jenner. you have added to our fund of knowledge, so don't you be regretful. there are one or two things here that neither mr. statman nor mr. adams nor mrs. cunningham could enlighten us about and you have done so, so you have been helpful and i appreciate it. i know you are anxious to be more helpful as we all are, but all we can do is get the basic facts. mr. brooks. i want to be certain if i say something. but i wish i could remember more about the applicant oswald, himself, but it is hard to do, actually. i was surprised actually at the time, of course, when they had told me i had taken his application. actually, i didn't remember it at the time, but i thought about it. and the marine corps probably brought in back a little, and like everyone else, i read the papers a lot. but i can't remember anything specific about him, just general things. mr. jenner. by the way, mr. brooks, you have a right to read over your deposition if you so desire. and you have a right to sign it if you so desire. and you also have a right to waive that if you wish. it is your choice, one way or the other. if you desire to read it and sign it---- mr. brooks. did you want me to sign it? mr. jenner. well, as a matter of fact, it would be more convenient for us to have the reporter certify the accuracy in transcribing and just send it to washington so we don't have to go to the trouble of calling you in and asking you to read it, but it is your option. mr. brooks. no; if you don't want me to, i won't. mr. jenner. i would just as soon be relieved of it, but i don't want to press you on it. mr. brooks. to the best of my knowledge, that is all i remember. i could have been confused about some issues, but i don't think so. mr. jenner. as far as you are concerned, you waive the signing of the deposition? mr. brooks. yes. mr. jenner. if you think of anything hereafter, there will be members of the legal staff here next week, and if they are not, call barefoot sanders and he will relay the information to us. thanks for coming over. we appreciate it. testimony of irving statman the testimony of irving statman was taken at : p.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. albert e. jenner, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. robert t. davis, assistant attorney general of texas, was present. mr. jenner. mr. statman, would you rise and be sworn, please? do you solemnly swear that in the deposition you are about to give, you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. statman. i do. mr. jenner. i'm albert e. jenner, jr., of the legal staff of the warren commission. the commission was authorized by senate joint resolution to provide a body to investigate the assassination of our late president, john fitzgerald kennedy, and pursuant to that legislation, the president, lyndon b. johnson, appointed the commission under executive order , and we of the staff are enjoined by the commission and the commission itself to inquire into all the circumstances, especially that we find pertinent data, regarding lee harvey oswald, to investigate his life and a good many people, you included, either in an official capacity or friends with other people who touched his life in some fashion or other. your employment is what? mr. statman. the assistant district director of the dallas district of the texas employment commission. mr. jenner. and just tell us generally what your duties are in that respect? mr. statman. well, we have the unemployment compensation of this and the placement office, and research and statistical branch, and an office in garland and in grand prairie. they are separate entities and it is my duty to assist the district director in any functions there are, and to assist in any problems that there are in any of the offices. mr. jenner. is there any office of the commission in fort worth? mr. statman. yes. we are the dallas district. now, also, he was registered in the fort worth district too. mr. jenner. he was? mr. statman. yes; but our connection with him was in actually three capacities--number one, as an applicant for a job, and as an applicant for a job, we had him counseled. in other words, if there are any reasons to believe that employment might be difficult for a person to obtain due to, maybe inexperience or due to change in occupation or some problem, we have a counseling setup that will counsel this person to the point where we feel we can help place him. in other words, now, we are not equipped to give him psychological counseling or give him home therapy. our job is placement counseling and we are trying to counsel them to the point where we can facilitate placing him onto a job and counseling duties then are through. he was also referred to the counselor due to some apparent counseling needs, and he also filed a claim for unemployment insurance, so those are the three areas that he touched in the dallas district. mr. jenner. you learned of those three areas--his touching those areas from books, records and documents of the commission? mr. statman. well, that's true. when this fbi man came in, and i can't think of his name--i've got his card, but i probably cleaned my nails with it, but anyway, he came in and asked for a copy of, or the actual documents, and we told him that we had a certain amount of documents here and there were others in austin, due to that interstate claim situation, and so we gave him all of our records, and also he contacted an fbi agent in austin, and our austin state office gave him some records. now, in preparing these records, then, i saw the documents that we had on him. now, what i have with me here is a copy of his application card. mr. jenner. could i describe that on the record first? mr. statman. yes; i think it is an e- , let me make sure what this number is, and--it is his application card. mr. jenner. excuse me, sir, mr. statman has handed me a form entitled--what? mr. statman. it's an e- --it's an e- application. mr. jenner. now, you have handed me two sheets. mr. statman. now, this represents the front. mr. jenner. the top sheet i have is the front of the card and the second sheet is the inside or reverse side? mr. statman. no; the inside--this is a folded affair and, let me me fold it for you properly. in other words, this is the way the card would look. mr. jenner. it's a foldover card. mr. statman. right--like this. now, this is an exact replica. mr. jenner. it is letter size when opened fully, and it is folded in half. the bottom of the top sheet reads, "application card e- " ( ) and for purposes of identification of the record what would be the back of the card when folded, but which is the top of the sheet as i hold it in my hand, it reads, "describe your longest and most important jobs, including military service, beginning with your most recent job." the second sheet which would form the reverse side of the card, portions of which i have read and which in turn would be the inside of the card when folded, has no form number on it, but it reads at the top, "do not write below this line," and then in the next line in printing. "conditions affecting employment," in the left-hand side, and "handicap description," on the right-hand side. mr. statman. do you want me to interpret on that? mr. jenner. yes; i do. [the exhibit is cunningham exhibit no. .] now, this card--i will turn it now back to the front or top of the folded card. will you state for the record what this is and does it relate to lee oswald, first? mr. statman. this is his application card. mr. jenner. now, folding it in half, so that i understand it, as folded in half--what now is facing us with the form number at the bottom, would be top of the folded card. [the original card, of which cunningham exhibit no. is a copy, is in evidence as cunningham exhibit no. -a.] mr. statman. right. mr. jenner. that means that lee oswald had a contact with the texas employment commission and this is a record made. mr. statman. on - - . this card indicates that he came in. mr. jenner. that he came in on the th of october ? mr. statman. that was his first contact with us. mr. jenner. and what is done, then, in the normal course of this sort of thing, when an applicant comes in for the first time? mr. statman. the first is--this card is filled out, and the number one thing is to get the pertinent facts, and do you want me to give what we have on him? mr. jenner. yes. mr. statman. we have his name and his address. mr. jenner. and what address is that? mr. statman. west fifth street, irving, tex., and a telephone number that indicates an irving number--bl- - , social security number was given-- - - . now, under this is his military service to ascertain if he is a veteran, because veterans get preference. in other words, i don't know if you need to know that, but that pink card indicates a veteran, and by law we are to give veterans preference, and the information here is to again ascertain if he is to get veterans preference. in this he listed the entry of his service date-- - - , and he was released from active service - - . then, underneath--another category, "if needed for work, do you have--" and it indicates "license, trucks, uniforms, car, tools," and he stated that he had none of these. in other words, some companies before they will hire you, like a mechanic has to have his own tools and some don't. mr. jenner. he answered he had none of those; is that correct? mr. statman. yes--none. now, he gave his educational background--do you want to go into that? mr. jenner. yes. mr. statman. he stated that he went to arlington heights, fort worth, years, / and in that---- mr. jenner. what is / ? mr. statman. apparently, that is when he left school--i don't know--i'm guessing at that. mr. jenner. but that card does indicate that he told the interviewing official of the commission that he attended arlington heights high school in fort worth for years, terminating in may . mr. statman. i think you can figure out, if that would be the start--let me see--in , how old would he have been--he would have been years old, so it seems more plausible that he left in than he started, wouldn't it to you? mr. jenner. yes. mr. statman. all right. he indicated courses that he took-- years english, year general math, year algebra, year general science. now, he indicates he has gotten a high school equivalency. that could have been obtained either through taking a g.e.d.---- mr. jenner. what is that? mr. statman. general education--something--anyway, you can take a test here and they will give you what is know as a high school equivalency, or he might have obtained that in the army or in the marine corps, but this is tantamount to having a high school education without completing the years. mr. jenner. but indicating he did not complete years? mr. statman. not years formal education. he is, as the name indicates, it is an equivalent--it's a certification that the man has an equivalency of a high school education. mr. jenner. all right. mr. statman. then, he had - / months of electronic fundamentals, - / months radar operator. mr. jenner. does he have some dates? mr. statman. that's --that was prior to when he was in the marine corps. now, i can't tell you whether those dates run concurrently or not. he might have had a training first and then the radar operation next. mr. jenner. by the way, in whose handwriting or hand printing is that document? mr. statman. i can't be sure--some of these are self applicants. in other words, they take it themselves, and others are prepared by the interviewer. now, this don brooks could tell you. here is his signature. mr. jenner. here is whose signature? mr. statman. lee harvey oswald's. this is on a different document. mr. jenner. we will get to that in a minute. mr. statman. i would guess that don brooks did this, because it is fairly consistent, i mean, you don't see a change of handwriting. usually the applicant, if he is making the application will show a different handwriting. mr. jenner. is mr. don brooks still employed by the commission? mr. statman. yes. usually, if the applicant makes the application and the interviewer completes it, you can see a change in the handwritings and you don't here. again, i am guessing that this was prepared by don brooks. now, up on the top is identifying information. mr. jenner. now, this is up on top of the exhibit as folded in half? mr. statman. yes, adjacent to the identifying information--there is a block--marital status, widow, single, and divorced, and he has checked "marital status." underneath that is a block for number of dependents, and he has indicated that he has two dependents. mr. jenner. that would indicate a wife and child? mr. statman. not necessarily--it would just indicate he has two dependents. i couldn't say he had a wife and child--knowing a little bit about him you could say that. birthday - - . mr. jenner. is that - or - - ? mr. statman. i'm sorry, you are right, it is - - . height feet inches, weight, pounds, education--he has listed high school with an asterisk, and the asterisk indicates he has a high school equivalent as opposed to years formal education. now, in the block showing his test results, which refer to this general aptitude test battery and which i have a document on that, and if you want to wait, we will come to that later. mr. jenner. i do want to go into it and we will hold that off. mr. statman. that indicates--no, let's do go into this. in the general aptitude battery--you have certain cutoff scores, and these scores indicate a propensity or an aptitude in the certain occupational areas, which are totaled by numbers. now, the aptitudes that he has proficiency in or propensity in has been indicated in the test results. mr. jenner. and those in turn you will discuss in connection with another document? mr. statman. well, you've got helen cunningham, who is a counselor and she can give you a lot better information on that. mr. jenner. all right. mr. statman. now, on the front in the date column--we do not always indicate when an individual is in, only when we see his card might become inactive, we will put it, so this doesn't necessarily mean that these are the only times he has been in, but this does indicate, as we previously stated, that he originally came in - - , he was in on - - , and he was in on - - , he was in on - - , he was in on - - . this r.i. indicates a reinterview. that means that he has been previously registered and we are reinterviewing him to bring his card up to date. mr. jenner. and the r.i. appears to the left of the entry--october , ; correct? mr. statman. yes, sir. now, there is just one more bit of information on this. is your wife employed--and he indicated "no". now, we are turning this document on the back. mr. jenner. that is--it would be the back when folded? mr. statman. right. now, this is the information on the back--this is the job history, the chronological job history, including military service, and we are starting chronologically backwards, with the latest job first. on this is indicated that he worked for leslie welding co., length of job-- months; date ended-- / ; rate of pay, $ . ; the duties--he has sheet metal works, and i think it says, "made ventilators and cut sheet metal." mr. jenner. that's correct. mr. statman. okay. the next job chronologically was [reading] the william b. rilly co. do you want that address? mr. jenner. if you please. mr. statman (reading). magazine street, new orleans, la. this rilly is r-i-l-l-y (spelling), william b. rilly, and this was typographical and that was the nature of the business; length of job-- months; date ended-- / ; rate of pay--$ . . as far as job descriptions, he just said "photography." now, the reason for leaving on both of these jobs was, "laid off." then, he gives the u.s. marine corps, radar--april-- years-- . that was his discharge. then, also, we have a summary of other work history. but this is a work history that might be pertinent, but he hasn't spent too much time on. let's go back up on the fold, under "identifying information," and there is an occupational title and a code. the occupational title listed, "routine clerical work." the code is x . this "x" indicates that he has not had any experience, and this type of work is an entry work. in other words, it is work that he might be interested in and proficient in if he could get training in it. in other words, they deemed that he was not really qualified for anything, and when you have somebody without any apparent qualifications you try to determine some sort of entry job. mr. jenner. therefore, i conclude--do i correctly--that from this, the interviewer concluded this man had no particular skills or qualifications. mr. statman. no; this interviewer ascertained that this individual did not have a definitive type occupation, so he was sent to the counselor and after the counselor counseled and tested oswald, then it was ascertained that this area of work would probably be the most conducive for him. you see, that's why he was sent to the counselor, because the interviewer could not make a definitive description or a judgment on his work. that's where our counselor comes in. now, we are on the back. under "miscellaneous" we had--shoe salesman, months, new orleans, la.; general office work-- year, new orleans, la., . that concludes the information on the back. mr. jenner. now, we turn to the inside. mr. statman. right. on the inside are his "conditions affecting employment?" that would be anything that in any way could, as the statement says, affect employment adversely or benignly. on this is first listed, "bus transportation." it indicates that if a job required a car, he couldn't go. mr. jenner. now, i am interested in that--that is a normal inquiry made, is it, of persons seeking employment? mr. statman. yes; because there are certain geographical areas in dallas that are not accessible by bus transportation, so when we get an order in this area we know that the applicant has to have his own transportation or he wouldn't be readily available for the job. mr. jenner. does it mean not only that he does not have an automobile to drive, but that he is unable to drive one, even if one is furnished? mr. statman. no. mr. jenner. it means only that he does not have that type of transportation available? mr. statman. no; this bus transportation means only that in the event that he would get a job, he would have to get to the job by bus transportation. mr. jenner. all right. mr. statman. there is no indication that he can't get a car at a later date? mr. jenner. there is no indication by that in what i am interested, of whether he is able or not able to drive an automobile. mr. statman. no; it just describes the motor transportation that he would have to employ in commuting to his work. now, the next remark is "outstanding verbal and clerical work." now, that was taken off of the g.a.t.b., which we will get into in a minute. in other words, it indicated that he had a great aptitude for vocabulary and also for clerical type work. this is ascertained off of his tests. mr. jenner. all right. mr. statman. the next is "financial position necessitates immediate employment." in other words, that would indicate that even though he might be qualified for a certain level of work, financially exigencies would force him into taking the first thing that came along. mr. jenner. the important thing then was to get a job right away? mr. statman. right. mr. jenner. and after he has gotten it, he might be able to entertain getting some other job? mr. statman. right--in other words, i might be a civil engineer, but i've just come into town and i will wash dishes until i can get enough money to get my immediate needs taken care of so i can hunt for a job. underneath here, "brother, junior executive, acme brick co.; brother--staff sergeant, air force," and the initials of the interviewer that talked to him--it is - - and it has h.p.c., which is helen p. cunningham. mr. jenner. that is the lady i am about to interview? mr. statman. that's right. now, as i say, this document was prepared by two people, by don brooks, acting as the initial application taker, and by helen cunningham in her capacity as a counselor. "applicant's characteristics," this is just a word picture of the interviewer's or counselor's idea on this applicant. we use that in order to, when we are looking through to call in somebody for jobs, you can kind get an idea of what impression they have made on our personnel. now, their impression was "well groomed and business suit"--something. mr. jenner. i think it reads, "well groomed and spoken, business suit, alert replies--expressed self extremely well." mr. statman. right. mr. jenner. in whose handwriting is that? mr. statman. well, i don't know; it's either don brook's or helen cunningham's, so helen can verify that. now, the lower half of this inside card indicates any placement action we have taken with this person. mr. jenner. all right. mr. statman. now, we referred him on / to harrel huntington--i can't read this. mr. jenner. let me give it a try--h-a-r-r-e-l [spelling] and h-a-r-r-i-n-g-t-o-n [spelling]. mr. statman. you are better at that; you must have had hieroglyphics in school. the job was a messenger job. mr. jenner. yes; it looks like they are architects--that harrel and harrington--it looks like exchange "exch"; is that correct? mr. statman. that's probably where the job was--at exchange park, the job was messenger at $ . an hour, and no indication of what disposition was made. they should have posted probably "not hired" in there and then they called him in about a job for dallas transit as messenger and no referral was offered. mr. jenner. what does that mean? mr. statman. that means that after he got there, either the job was filled or they decided that maybe he wasn't qualified for it. mr. jenner. what is the date of that? mr. statman. he was called in - - by telephone message, so apparently they talked to him on the phone and decided not to refer him. then a call-in card was sent to him--this was a message card by mail - - . mr. jenner. that would be may , ? mr. statman. yes. now, he didn't respond to this, so we issued an e- , which inactivated his card. in other words, after working days, if he doesn't respond, we deem this person not available. then, a telephone message on - - was sent and then on - - he was referred to solid state electronics. mr. jenner. does it indicate the kind of job? mr. statman. yes; as a sales clerk and it paid $ a month and he was not hired. on - - he was referred to burton-dixie as a clerk trainee at $ . an hour. he was not hired. on - he was called on the phone and referred direct on the same day to trans-texas as a cargo handler, and he did not report. in other words, he just didn't show up, and then they have a notation here that looks like--it says, "working - r.l.a." in other words, robert adams in some manner of fashion---- mr. jenner. ascertained that he was working? mr. statman. ascertained or received word that he was working. now, our next document--let's take the easiest one--e- (a) ( ), which is the test record card, and that indicates the different types of tests we give. mr. jenner. is that on a -sided card? mr. statman. yes, sir. mr. jenner. it does not fold? mr. statman. yes, sir; i'm sorry; it's like this. mr. jenner. it is -sided but just one sheet? mr. statman. right, and then on the front is also the individual---- mr. jenner. it is half the size of a letter-size sheet of paper? mr. statman. right; it is the information on the individual aptitude profile. mr. jenner. all right, may i identify it a little further for the record? it is marked as cunningham exhibit no. . [the original of cunningham exhibit no. is in evidence as cunningham exhibit no. -a.] mr. statman. yes; start it this way [indicating]. mr. jenner. all right. looking at the face of the card at the top there is a blank for "name," which is not filled in. at the bottom of the card, an aptitude score appears the figures sequentially: , , , , , , , , . mr. statman. those indicate his scores in his tests. mr. jenner. on the face of the card appears in bold face caps "individual aptitude profile." mr. statman. okay. now, again, as i say, a complete battery of tests is given to make up this g.a.t.b., which stands for general aptitude test batteries. now, certain parts of these tests when converted, give you scores in general intelligence, verbal, numbers, special conception, perception, clerical, motor coordination, finger dexterity, and manual dexterity. now, by a combination of some of these parts of tests, it will give you an occupational aptitude in certain areas, which are numbered and circled. now, these occupational aptitudes or proficiencies are circled, and these are used---- mr. jenner. the ones that are circled are what? mr. statman. are the ones he has some proficiency in. in other words, " " means he had some writing ability. now, i'm not that conversant with these cards. mr. jenner. will mrs. cunningham know that? mr. statman. she will know and she can tell you, and also he has taken some other tests--a b- and a b- . mr. jenner. what are those? mr. statman. i think they are clerical; you better ask her for sure. i'm fairly sure they are clerical. now, that's all this is. mr. jenner. what is that bottom line there that i read before? mr. statman. those are the scores he made in these different parts. mr. jenner. i see. mr. statman. in other words, you see, he made in general intelligence, in verbal; you remember she indicated he did good on verbal and you remember she did indicate that he did good on clerical. now, they have a cut-off sheet with certain numbers and you run this down, let's say, in order to be good in occupational pattern " ," you have to have on your g, and on your p, and on your f, which he did. let's say, to be good--he missed five. let's say you have to have a , , and . he only has on this and on this, so he wouldn't pass this pattern. so, actually, the different cut-off scores would indicate which patterns you pass, and the patterns you pass indicate an aptitude or propensity in certain occupational patterns. mr. jenner. mrs. cunningham will be able to give us that? mr. statman. yes; i have been away from this a while, but they go into automobile mechanics and maybe clerical, and the first one is literary, art, design, and so forth and so on. as you go down, it takes less proficiency or less mental acuity to pass a test. mr. jenner. while i am thinking about it, who is in charge of the fort worth office. i can call on there tomorrow? mr. statman. krizan, he is the district director, k-r-i-z-a-n [spelling]. that is his last name. wayland is his first name. now we might have the same thing in fort worth that we are doing here. i think we had some dealings with him in fort worth. now, along with this should be his counseling card, which would indicate the type of counseling and any responses. i can't find that; i don't know--i know the fbi man has it. we might not have made a picture of it or it might have gotten lost, but again, helen remembers enough about it to give you the pertinent details of it. ask her about the e- or the counseling card. all right, now, here is where it gets a little complicated. mr. jenner. now, we are going to a third document? mr. statman. the third document is---- mr. jenner. is that a card also? mr. statman. yes; this a card. mr. jenner. it is a folded card? mr. statman. yes; it folds. mr. jenner. it is a letter-size sheet. it is marked cunningham exhibit no. . would you put the two sheets in the position they would be in with the card? [the original card, of which cunningham exhibit no. is a copy, is in evidence as cunningham exhibit no. -a.] mr. statman. i'm trying to. this isn't one of our normal documents, as i said, this is an interstate document. you know, there is a different address on the test-record card than on the application card and you may want to bring that out. mr. jenner. i do want to bring that out; the address on the aptitude test card, i see, is fairmount in dallas. mr. statman. okay. i'm sorry; i should have mentioned that to you before. mr. jenner. opposite the word "comments" on the face of the card---- mr. statman. that's g.a.t.b. in fort worth, june , so that indicates that he had had this complete g.a.t.b. given in fort worth in , and maybe in order not to be redundant, they might have sent and gotten; yes, in fact, i know they did because you see--you don't have any indication here of the make-up, so these scores and patterns were obtained from the fort worth office. mr. jenner. the date, october , , appearing on the reverse of the card lettered "individual aptitude tests" would, i take it, in view of what you have now said, be the date on which the information was obtained from the fort worth office? mr. statman. well, no; the g.a.t.b. in fort worth, june --that's when he took it. mr. jenner. there is another date below that. mr. statman. no; you see, all this dealings has been in , hasn't it? this would probably indicate the fort worth action, wouldn't it? mr. jenner. well, what i was trying to attempt to do was bring it out. mr. statman. well, everything else we have done is in , so we would have to ascertain here or assume that this - - was the date that the g.a.t.b. was administered to him in fort worth. no; that couldn't be right either, because june wouldn't be . mr. jenner. he came to this country on june , . mr. statman. well, maybe this is a mistake and it should have been - - . that would be more than likely the dates, wouldn't it? mr. jenner. possibly. mr. statman. you see, everything else we have on the application that indicates - - , wouldn't it? in other words, we have had no dealings with him back in , have we? mr. jenner. not in the dallas office. mr. statman. no, no; again, i guess you would have to postulate that that should be - - . in other words, on - - , they recorded this information from the fort worth records. mr. jenner. taking you back to the previous exhibit, i direct your attention to a date of - - , appearing---- mr. statman. no; you are right--okay--they contacted fort worth on - - , and received this information from them. mr. jenner. this aptitude information from them? mr. statman. right. in other words, the test was not administered in the dallas office, it was administered in fort worth. have i got you confused, finally? mr. jenner. no; you don't have me confused; you are doing splendidly. you are very helpful. mr. statman. now, this document [cunningham exhibit no. ] is a claim document, b- (a). mr. jenner. excuse me, may i have this described a little more for the record? mr. statman. well, i want you to note that there is an original date on there indicating a new orleans address and then a dallas address. mr. jenner. you are going to explain that--all i'm going to do at the moment is to identify the document for the record. mr. statman. it is a b- (a), cunningham exhibit no. . mr. jenner. it is a document in typing opposite the printed designation--the name is "l. h. oswald" and to the right of that in printing is "ss number," which i take it is his social security number? mr. statman. right. mr. jenner. it is - - . in longhand above that line, i have just read, appears p.o. box . mr. statman. all right--now, to go on with that and also in longhand is the irving address, west fifth, irving. mr. jenner. i see there are some strike-outs. mr. statman. right. now, the original document was typed giving l. h. oswald, france street, new orleans, la. mr. jenner. is it french? mr. statman. france--it looks like france. mr. jenner. french, f-r-e-n-c-h [spelling]. mr. statman. it looks like "a" to me. mr. jenner. f-r-a-n-c-e [spelling]. we'll let mr. davis look at it. mr. davis. i think it is french, f-r-e-n-c-h [spelling]. it's french in the writing. mr. statman. i'm talking about the typing now--the typing is "a." mr. davis. well, the typing is "a," but it looks like the writing is french. mr. statman. i was just talking about the typing. i'm just discussing the typing with you now. mr. jenner. okay, it is france street in typing. following that is french street, stricken out, that is in longhand, and above the strike-out is west fifth, in longhand, and below that is "irving, texas." mr. statman. the reason i am making a differentiation between that, is that the typing of it was done in new orleans because that is where this document was originally issued. mr. jenner. why was it originally issued in new orleans? mr. statman. because he was in new orleans filing an interstate claim against texas. mr. jenner. the interstate claim being a claim of an applicant who has been residing in a state other than texas and he is making a claim against the state of texas. mr. statman. well, it is a claim where a person has earned his wages in one state and is filing in another state against the state in which he has earned his wage credits. so, he has earned his wage credits in texas. he was filing in new orleans against the state of texas. that's where this original document was made. mr. jenner. does it appear from this document as to when that claim was filed in new orleans? mr. statman. i am just trying to figure out something here--the initial claim in new orleans was filed on - - . mr. jenner. that's the th day of may, , when he filed the claim in new orleans? mr. statman. then, in texas on - - it was determined that he was entitled to $ . a week. mr. jenner. on - - or - - --he filed a claim may . mr. statman. no; - - . mr. jenner. oh; - - --the date of filing the claim was april , , and action was taken on that claim by the texas employment commission on---- mr. statman. they made a monetary determination on it on - - . mr. jenner. on what date? mr. statman. on may , . in other words, what they do is check his wage credits, and then ascertain how much weekly amount he is entitled to; that is, the weekly benefit amount, and how much total amounts he is entitled to. mr. jenner. and what was the total? mr. statman. the weekly benefit amount was $ a week, a total of $ ; in other words, he could draw for about weeks. his bye that's the benefit year ends on - - . all that means is that the claim is in force to this date. mr. jenner. he would receive that amount of money per week until that date? mr. statman. no; until he received a total of $ , but he had that whole year to draw that money. let's say he went to work for months and let's say he drew checks--that would be $ , and then he went to work for months; well, between the months and this - - , he would still be entitled to draw, if he were unemployed, $ more. now, for some reason or other, he was filing in new orleans--on these dates, and that is indicated by the i-b- , that means he is filing an interstate correspondence. this information is sent to texas and texas posts it on its card. do you want all these dates that he filed? mr. jenner. well, they are on the record. mr. statman. yes. mr. jenner. but what i do want to know is--he filed claims when in new orleans on the dates listed. mr. statman. up until this point. mr. jenner. he filed those up to and including line , is that correct? mr. statman. yes. mr. jenner. so, that would mean he filed claims on separate occasions? mr. statman. yes; in new orleans. that is indicated by the i-b- and i-b- symbols, indicating that that is an interstate claim. in other words, he is residing in one state and filing against another. mr. jenner. excuse me, for the record, those claims--the first is on may , , and the th is on september , , am i correct? mr. statman. right. now, the last two claims, if you will notice---- mr. jenner. those are on lines what? mr. statman. lines and , so he filed through line . mr. jenner. through line rather than through line ? mr. statman. yes. mr. jenner. and line , the date is september , ? mr. statman. now, on the last two dates that he filed a claim-- - - and - - , the symbol changes to c.c., which indicates "continued claim," which in turn indicates that it is an intrastate claim. in other words, he is now filing in texas against texas. mr. jenner. now, if he had not exhausted his interstate claim, that is the amount due him, and he returned to dallas---- mr. statman. he didn't exhaust his interstate claim--you know, once you set up a claim, that's all the money you get, regardless of which state you are in. he just happened to return to the state in which he had earned his wage credits, so his claim reverted from an interstate claim to an intrastate only due to geographical location, not due to any monetary consideration. mr. jenner. then, the explanation is--although the classifications changed from interstate to intrastate, it was the same claim. mr. statman. right--it was the same claim, it's just a matter of changing geographical locations. mr. jenner. of the claimant? mr. statman. yes. mr. jenner. back to the state of texas? mr. statman. back to the state of texas. you see, he could have started his claim in texas and moved to new orleans and that would have gone from an intrastate claim to an interstate claim. i had trouble with that fbi man on that. mr. jenner. you did? mr. statman. well, i mean, it can be confusing, because each state has their own set of regulations, and actually, we have an interstate unit in austin that pays claims from people outside of texas who are filing against texas, and we also have interstate claims the other way. we have people who have earned their wage credits in new york and are living here in dallas, so, when they file a claim, they are filing an interstate claim against new york. you see, what has happened, this originated--this interstate claim filed against texas, and when he returned to texas it became an intrastate. mr. jenner. does that cover that side of the card? mr. statman. that covers everything. so, according to this, it would indicate that he filed, now, you notice he had no signatures here. we have these individuals, when they come to our office, sign their names once, because they sign their individual cards, and we want to compare their each weekly signature with a card here to make sure that the person who is signing this claim for unemployment insurance is the one that filed the card. mr. jenner. whose signature appears on the inside of the card when folded? mr. statman. right; you see, here we had not his signature because he was in new orleans. mr. jenner. now, when you say "here" you are referring to lines through , isn't that correct? mr. statman. through . in other words, in the space for remarks, through , his signature does not appear. mr. jenner. if he were here in texas when those claims were made, his signature would appear on each of those lines? mr. statman. no; just one time. mr. jenner. at the top--meaning line ? mr. statman. no; at different offices--some offices make them sign it every time he goes in. again, it's redundant. actually, all you want is a true signature to compare the continued claim card he signs each week, to make sure this individual's signature checks. then, when he came in on - - he signed this card in our office, to establish a signature for us to be able to check future documents with. mr. jenner. all right, and to pay him any balance due on his claim, or had it been paid out by that time? mr. statman. well, he drew, actually, i can't tell you how much money he drew, because of a lot of times an individual might file for his unemployment and for some reason or another he might be ineligible so he won't get any money. these records do not indicate the amount of money he has collected. you will have to get that out of austin--the chief of the insurance claims. mr. jenner. mr. davis is an expert at that and anyhow it is his home town. is that right, mr. davis? mr. davis. that's right. mr. statman. in other words, i could go in and file for my unemployment and they might have phoned me for a job wednesday and i said, "my wife is working and i have got to stay here with my kids," and i wasn't able and available for work that week. so, even though i filed for a claim that week, i would be ineligible, so just the mere signing of these cards would not indicate the payment to an individual. mr. jenner. you have been extremely helpful. mr. statman. i hope so. i hope i didn't confuse you too much. mr. jenner. you didn't confuse us at all. mr. statman. now, do you want to keep all of those records? mr. jenner. oh, yes; very much so. i offer the three documents in evidence as cunningham exhibits nos. , , and , respectively. [the original copies of the cards marked cunningham exhibits nos. , , and are in evidence as cunningham exhibits nos. -a, -a, and -a.] mr. statman. okay, i guess that's all right--i don't know. actually, our records are supposed to be confidential and we are supposed to have a court order before we release them, but i will just leave them with you and if i get in trouble i'll come to see you. mr. jenner. if you get in any trouble about them, we will see that they are returned and we will make copies for you, but, of course, you can see they are hard to duplicate. mr. statman. are you going to be in town for a few days? mr. jenner. i'll be in town tomorrow and i'll be back next week. there will be members of the legal staff here all the time. mr. statman. fine. all right, i'm just going to leave these with you. if something comes up i might have to solicit your aid. mr. jenner. you've got a certified record of the fact you left them here. mr. statman. no; i don't mean that. i might should not have released these to you without authorization from austin, but if that comes up, you look like a pretty good lawyer and you might be able to bring us out of it. mr. davis. yes; if you get locked up, we will spring you out. mr. jenner. mr. davis is from the texas attorney general's office. mr. statman. i'm not trying to be negative about this, but you know, when you deal with the state, sometimes if you don't follow the protocol there is difficulty. mr. davis. if you have any question on it i would be glad to talk with them and tell them that we have made a formal request of you to leave them with us. mr. statman. all right, fine. is that all? mr. jenner. that's all. thank you very much. if you want to read this over, you may. mr. statman. no; that's all right. mr. jenner. and you waive signature too? mr. statman. right. mr. jenner. all right, thank you very much. you have been very helpful. mr. davis. thank you very much. mr. statman. all right, i'm glad i could help. testimony of tommy bargas the testimony of tommy bargas was taken at : a.m., on march , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. albert e. jenner, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. robert t. davis, assistant attorney general of texas, was present. mr. jenner. mr. bargas, do you swear that in the deposition i am about to take of you that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? mr. bargas. yes, sir. mr. jenner. will you state your name, please? mr. bargas. tommy bargas, b-a-r-g-a-s [spelling]. mr. jenner. and where do you live? mr. bargas. east drew, fort worth, tex. mr. jenner. mr. bargas, did you receive recently a letter from mr. rankin, the general counsel for the commission? mr. bargas. yes, sir. mr. jenner. is the letter asking you if you would appear and permit your deposition to be taken, with which was enclosed copies of executive order , creating the commission, and of senate joint resolution , authorizing the president to appoint and create the commission, and also a copy of the rules of procedure of the commission for the questioning of witnesses by members of the staff of the commission? mr. bargas. yes. mr. jenner. i am albert e. jenner, jr., one of the counsel on the legal staff of the commission, and mr. robert davis is here, who is a special assistant attorney general of the state of texas, and is cooperating with us and we with him and the attorney general, in the investigation that the state of texas is carrying on. now, you appear voluntarily? mr. bargas. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and the commission, as you know, from these papers enclosed is investigating the tragedy of the assassination of president john f. kennedy, and many people have had some contact with various circumstances and incidents involving persons who may or could have been involved in turn in that assassination, and we have information that you had some contact with a man known as lee harvey oswald, and we would like to inquire of you about that contact. you live in fort worth--how long have you resided in fort worth? mr. bargas. i have lived in fort worth all my life. mr. jenner. all of your life? mr. bargas. yes. mr. jenner. you are a native texan? mr. bargas. yes. mr. jenner. and born and reared in texas? mr. bargas. yes. mr. jenner. and did you, during his lifetime, come to know a man by the name of lee harvey oswald? mr. bargas. i only knew him when he went to work for louv-r-pak weather co. mr. jenner. but you did have a contact--you came to know him? mr. bargas. yes; i did. mr. jenner. at some contact you came to know him, whatever the case might be? mr. bargas. yes, sir. mr. jenner. how long have you been employed by leslie welding co.? mr. bargas. i been employed with them ever since . mr. jenner. and does that include the year ? mr. bargas. yes, sir. mr. jenner. by whom were you employed during the year prior thereto? mr. bargas. louv-r-pak. mr. jenner. l-o-u-v-r-p-a-k [spelling]. i take it, then, that somewhere along the line a company known as louv-r-pak merged into or associated with leslie welding co.? mr. bargas. that's right. mr. jenner. and you, as an employee of louv-r-pak then became automatically an employee of leslie welding co.? mr. bargas. yes, sir. mr. jenner. is louv-r-pak a division of the leslie welding co.? mr. bargas. yes. mr. jenner. and tell us, at least in general, what is the business of leslie welding co.? mr. bargas. leslie welding co. manufactures louvers and ventilators for attics, houses--commercial and residential. mr. jenner. what was the business of louv-r-pak? mr. bargas. louv-r-pak is the same line. mr. jenner. it was the same line? mr. bargas. yes. mr. jenner. i use the present tense when i refer to leslie welding co., that is, what is its business--was that that you have described its business in ? mr. bargas. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and thereafter as well, to the present time? mr. bargas. yes, sir. mr. jenner. now, tell me, if you will, your particular connection with first--louv-r-pak and then leslie welding co.? mr. bargas. well, i was at louv-r-pak just a regular employee, and then in leslie welding, after it was purchased by leslie welding co.--louv-r-pak was--then, after a short time i became foreman down there. mr. jenner. foreman in the louv-r-pak division of the leslie welding co.? mr. bargas. right, sir. mr. jenner. what kind of work was under your supervision and direction as a foreman? mr. bargas. as a foreman it was total supervision of the plant. in other words--assign men to their jobs and see that they carried them out. mr. jenner. did you do any hiring of people? mr. bargas. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and discharging of people? mr. bargas. yes, sir. mr. jenner. i take it that the making of these louvers involves welding and sheet metal work? mr. bargas. yes, sir. mr. jenner. what kind of work is that--is that forming, and cutting and stripping and punching? mr. bargas. spot welding and resistance welding was all they use. mr. jenner. spot welding and resistance welding? mr. bargas. resistance welding and spot welding is the same thing. mr. jenner. does the sheet metal come in size or do you have to form it in some fashion? mr. bargas. we have to form it in various different sizes to specifications called for. mr. jenner. and then, the louvers are spot welded and placed--they are moved up and down in various directions, are they? mr. bargas. yes, sir. mr. jenner. does leslie welding co. have any plants other than in fort worth? mr. bargas. it has one in atlanta, ga. mr. jenner. is its home office located here or in atlanta, ga.? mr. bargas. no, sir; it is located in chicago. mr. jenner. in chicago proper or some suburb of chicago? mr. bargas. in a suburb. mr. jenner. is that melrose park or franklin park? mr. bargas. franklin park. mr. jenner. have you ever been up there? mr. bargas. yes, sir. mr. jenner. are there any production facilities there at franklin park? mr. bargas. yes, sir. mr. jenner. that's near o'hare field? mr. bargas. it is near to o'hare field. mr. jenner. and, near mannheim road--i think mannheim road bisects franklin park, doesn't it? mr. bargas. i'm not too familiar with it, but i did travel on mannheim road. i remember that, but i'm not too familiar with the area. mr. jenner. did someone by the name of lee harvey oswald ever work for leslie welding co. here in fort worth? mr. bargas. yes, sir. mr. jenner. did you have anything to do with that? mr. bargas. in what manner? in what respect? mr. jenner. well, did you hire him, for example? mr. bargas. well, he came down--we called in for men at the texas employment office and they sent him down and naturally he was interviewed. mr. jenner. did you do the calling in? mr. bargas. i don't do the calling in, no. mr. jenner. you told somebody working for you or under your direction to call the texas employment agency? mr. bargas. well, the secretary called. mr. jenner. at your direction, however? mr. bargas. right. mr. jenner. and what did you tell her you wanted in the way of an employee? mr. bargas. i wanted a suitable employee that we could train that had some sheet metal experience, that we could train--that was willing to learn, starting at a low grade. mr. jenner. when was this? mr. bargas. i do not know exactly the date. mr. jenner. i have a date in my notes of july , , does that approximate it? mr. bargas. that's approximately right. mr. jenner. it was in ? mr. bargas. i believe it was. mr. jenner. and it was in july sometime? mr. bargas. sometime in july. mr. jenner. along about the middle of july? is that correct? mr. bargas. yes; somewhere around in there. mr. jenner. in response to this message that had been transmitted to the texas state employment agency, somebody by the name of lee oswald came to your place of business, to the factory, and you had made it clear through your secretary, who called on your behalf, that you were seeking somebody who was going to start at the bottom, to be trained, that if he had some sheet metal experience that would be fine? mr. bargas. that's right. mr. jenner. but, whoever this employee or prospective employee would be, would start at a low rate and it would be contemplated that he would be trained? mr. bargas. yes, sir. mr. jenner. now, lee oswald came on the scene--do you recall your meeting with him? mr. bargas. no--not very distinctly--no. mr. jenner. do you relatively frequently have occasion to seek new employees? mr. bargas. yes, sir. mr. jenner. this was not out of the ordinary? mr. bargas. no, sir. mr. jenner. it was just in the regular course of business? mr. bargas. right. mr. jenner. and neither the nature of the employment, nor the man himself in either respect--was there anything unusual or particular about it? mr. bargas. no--none whatever. mr. jenner. and tell us about that meeting, to the extent you can recall it. mr. bargas. well, it's pretty hard because i meet so many people that's come in and out. mr. jenner. i appreciate that--it may be important to us, mr. bargas, that your recollection is exactly what it is, that this employment was just the usual, ordinary sort of thing and that he didn't impress you greatly--don't you be embarrassed at all--all we want to find out from you is what your personal recollection is and what you remember, that's all. it may be just as important to us that you remember very little, because it was not extraordinary, as your remembering something particular about it. give us what you now recall took place. mr. bargas. well, the only thing that i remember taking place was him coming into the plant. mr. jenner. and he came to see you--or he was directed to you? mr. bargas. he was directed to me, and he came in and i gave him an application to fill out and we talked and i gave him instructions of what i expected of the men when he came to be employed there. mr. jenner. would you tell us as best you can now recall that conversation--what you told him--what did you expect, what did you say to him that you expected? mr. bargas. well, i have three basic rules that i go by--one, is that i expect a man to be there on time and i expect him, when he punches in in the morning to be prepared to work, and if he is going to be absent for any reason at all, i expect him to call in in the morning before o'clock which is one of our company rules, and then i went along stating what he would be doing, where he would be working---- mr. jenner. all right, tell us what you said to him, in substance. mr. bargas. what i said to him in substance probably was--i usually tell them, "you will be working in this department," and---- mr. jenner. which department? mr. bargas. the turbine department. mr. jenner. the turbine department? mr. bargas. the turbine department, and that's another ventilator which we make, and this ventilator requires a little cutting to do with the shears, and he told me that he had had sheet metal experience while he was in the service. mr. jenner. all right, go ahead. mr. bargas. and so---- mr. jenner. what kind of cutting--you say with the shears--is it a power-operated shears? mr. bargas. a power-operated shears. mr. jenner. go ahead. mr. bargas. and then after that, i put him to work. mr. jenner. now, i would like to stick to that beginning a little bit--do you recall what inquiries you made of him as to his immediate history, that is, did you inquire of him as to past positions, if any, he had held? mr. bargas. no. mr. jenner. when you talked with him, i take it from your answer that you did inquire of him as to what sheet metal work experience he had had, if any? mr. bargas. if any. mr. jenner. and his response was--what did he say? mr. bargas. well, he said he had had some when he was in the service and that's all, and he didn't give no full detail as to what he was doing or how he was doing it. mr. jenner. and you didn't inquire? mr. bargas. no; i didn't. mr. jenner. i take it, then, at that stage of the game it was your impression or your thought, since this was to be a low hourly rated employee, that you would soon find out if he had any experience? mr. bargas. right, sir. mr. jenner. and you intended to train him in any event? mr. bargas. right. mr. jenner. now, do you have any recollection of his appearance on that occasion, how he was attired with respect to cleanliness, did he have a suit coat on, a jacket, or a t-shirt, or if you have no recollection, then just say you don't? mr. bargas. no. mr. jenner. this was just an employment in the ordinary course of business that you do frequently? mr. bargas. yes. mr. jenner. and nothing with respect to this man impressed you or now stands out? mr. bargas. no. mr. jenner. at this initial interview? mr. bargas. no. mr. jenner. do you recall inquiring of him as to where he lived? mr. bargas. no. mr. jenner. as to whether he had a telephone or not? mr. bargas. no. mr. jenner. was he married--did he have a family? mr. bargas. the only thing--he was married but he never stated--he never said what nationality his wife was or anything like that. as a matter of fact, he never--we never communicated that much. in other words, we didn't talk--we didn't communicate between each other that much. once or twice i tried to talk with him, you know, we usually try to find out how the employees are getting along, whether they like their jobs they are working at and if not, then we try to place them in a different position, and i make them satisfactory and that way i feel that a man can put out more. mr. jenner. that's right. mr. bargas. and so, i tried to talk to him once or twice and all i would get "yes", "no" and that was it, and as long as i gave him the job he went and done it as everybody else in the plant, so i didn't have no grudge on him or nothing at all. i assigned him a job and he done it and i was satisfied. mr. jenner. he was a somewhat uncommunicative person? mr. bargas. yes, sir. mr. jenner. but this did not interfere with his work? mr. bargas. no, sir. mr. jenner. as far as you were concerned, even though he was uncommunicative, he was doing his work and he wasn't causing any trouble, so as far as his personality was concerned, you let that pass? mr. bargas. it was satisfactory with me. mr. jenner. what kind of an employee was he, or what is your impression and present recollection? mr. bargas. well, as much as i can remember of the short time he was there, it was a very short time he was there--he was a good employee. i imagine if he pursued that trade, he might have come out to be a pretty good sheet metal man--i don't know. mr. jenner. but at least that's your impression? mr. bargas. that's my impression. mr. jenner. i take it he did not volunteer anything with respect to his past or his family or his current activities outside the plant? mr. bargas. no. mr. jenner. what were his relations, if any, with respect to other employees? mr. bargas. none whatever. mr. jenner. do you mean by that that he kept to himself? mr. bargas. totally. mr. jenner. totally--what about lunch times--employees usually get together at lunch time? mr. bargas. well, everybody used to get together over there except himself. he would take his lunch and move over to the side there and eat his lunch by himself and he didn't talk to nobody about nothing, so nobody ever even messed with him, i mean as far as that's concerned. mr. jenner. what impression did you have as to whether he was indifferent to his work, happy with his work--what impression do you have as to his reaction to his work? mr. bargas. none that i can remember. mr. jenner. nothing stands out? mr. bargas. no. mr. jenner. do you have any impression as to whether he ever sought to be particularly industrious or tried to impress you? mr. bargas. no; the only thing i can remember--he just done his job--that's all. mr. jenner. he was prompt, was he, in the mornings? mr. bargas. as far as i can remember he was there every day. mr. jenner. and he had a good attendance record, as far as you can recall? mr. bargas. yes. mr. jenner. do you have any recollection of anybody employed at the plant with whom oswald did or might have associated after work hours or on weekends? mr. bargas. no. mr. jenner. and as far as you observed, during the days of employment, he kept pretty much to himself anyhow? mr. bargas. that's right. mr. jenner. did you ever observe anything with respect to his temperament--was he quick tempered, was there any incident that occurred that would give you a basis for an opinion? mr. bargas. no. mr. jenner. how long did he work there, to the best of your recollection? mr. bargas. i believe it was up until september, if i'm not mistaken, somewhere right along in there. mr. jenner. would this serve to refresh your recollection, that he worked until on or about october th ? mr. bargas. no; i don't remember. mr. jenner. could he have worked until october th? mr. bargas. it is possible. mr. jenner. but your present recollection is more like sometime in the course of september when his employment was terminated? mr. bargas. yes. mr. jenner. what were the circumstances respecting the termination of his employment? mr. bargas. well, what happened is--he went home one day, not during working hours, but it was right after the regular working hours. mr. jenner. after the regular quitting time? mr. bargas. after quitting time at : , and he went home and he didn't give any indication of whether he was going to quit or he was going to leave or anything like that. mr. jenner. you expected him back the next day? mr. bargas. i expected him back the next morning and if i'm not mistaken, it was friday, and monday he didn't show up, i believe it was; if i'm not mistaken--i can't place it, and so he didn't call in and he didn't have a phone, as far as i can remember, so i never tried to get in contact with him or anything like that, and i figured he may have someone to call in or something like that, so i just let it ride, and then he didn't show up the second day after that, so all i said then was, "well, i imagine he quit because a line of guys had done the same thing." in other words, a lot of them just never did show up and that's all that happened. they would come back on the following friday or something like that and say, "i quit, i've got another job." that's what the other guys would say. well, he was different--when he left the only thing he done was he wrote in to the plant and told us where to send his check to. he said he was up there in irving somewhere--i don't remember the address or exactly what place it was, but as far as i know that was it. i never had seen him since then and the last time i heard of him was when his name sounded off on the radio. mr. jenner. where were you then? mr. bargas. i was there at the plant. mr. jenner. this was in the afternoon of november d? mr. bargas. right. mr. jenner. of ? mr. bargas. right. mr. jenner. and you heard his name broadcast on the radio? mr. bargas. yes. mr. jenner. and that awakened your memory? mr. bargas. well, it come to me--in other words--the name right there, it rang a bell--in other words, because i remember some of the names--in other words, when they say them, i can more or less remember them, and then i even said to myself, well, i wasn't too sure of it then, you know, because there are so many oswalds, so when i got home that afternoon, i was watching the television and there they came with a flash picture of him and i remembered him. mr. jenner. on the television? mr. bargas. yes. mr. jenner. and the flash picture you saw was lee harvey oswald who had been an employee under your supervision and direction? mr. bargas. yes--he was the one that had been employed there. mr. jenner. you recognized him? mr. bargas. i recognized him. mr. jenner. and, did that excite you to look at other television showings to confirm your recollection that the man under arrest by the dallas city police was lee harvey oswald, a former employee of leslie welding company? mr. bargas. well, i followed the whole thing pretty well. i mean--it wasn't that i was interested in knowing whether i knew the man, because it didn't impress me very much of having known the man that done the deed that he did, but i did follow it pretty close and as i said, as i followed him more and more, i remembered him more and more. mr. jenner. during the period of his employment, that was approximately a couple of months or a little more--more or less--did he evidence any disposition toward physical violence, quick temper, arguments with fellow employees, or anything of that nature? mr. bargas. none that i can remember. mr. jenner. i show you commission exhibits and through , inclusive, and ask you to examine those photographs and tell me if the man depicted on those photographs, in your opinion, bears any resemblance to lee harvey oswald? mr. bargas. [examining exhibits referred to.] none of them. mr. jenner. he does not? mr. bargas. no. mr. jenner. what about his skills, did he do a reasonably satisfactory job? mr. bargas. yes. mr. jenner. mr. bargas, i think that's about all the questions i have. i would like to ask you, however, this general question as to whether anything has occurred to you, any incident or anything else that has come to your mind that you think might be helpful to the commission in its investigation of the assassination of president kennedy? mr. bargas. no. mr. jenner. all right. you are privileged to read your deposition, if you wish to, and to sign it, if you wish to. it isn't required and you may waive it if you see fit--that is--forego it. miss oliver will have it ready sometime during the week if you want to call in to mr. sanders' office, the united states attorney's office, and come in and read it, you have a right to have a copy of your deposition if you wish to purchase one, and miss oliver will be quite willing to sell you one at whatever her rates are. do you have any preferences in this connection? mr. bargas. i would like to have one of those depositions--yes. mr. jenner. when you call into mr. sanders and he will put you in touch with miss oliver and you can make arrangements with her for a copy, and i appreciate your coming in and regret any inconvenience to you, but you have been helpful to us. mr. bargas. well, i'm glad i have. as far as i know--i don't know--as much as i knew about the man, i don't think i can tell you enough--as much as i thought i knew the man. if i had known anything like that about the man, he would have never been employed there. mr. jenner. well, so say we all. mr. bargas. but it's just one of those things. mr. jenner. thank you very much. i appreciate it. mr. bargas. all right. testimony of robert l. stovall the testimony of robert l. stovall was taken at : p.m., on march , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. albert e. jenner, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. robert t. davis, assistant attorney general of texas, was present. mr. jenner. mr. stovall, would you please rise and be sworn. do you swear in your testimony that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? mr. stovall. yes; i do. mr. jenner. you are robert l. stovall? mr. stovall. yes. mr. jenner. that's [spelling] s-t-o-v-a-l-l? mr. stovall. yes. mr. jenner. you are president of jaggars-chiles-stovall, browder, here in dallas, is that right? mr. stovall. right. mr. jenner. mr. stovall, my name is [spelling] j-e-n-n-e-r, albert e. jenner, jr., and i am a member of the legal staff of the commission appointed to investigate the assassination of president kennedy. you received from mr. rankin, the general counsel of the commission, a letter in which he enclosed, three documents--joint resolution authorizing the creation of the commission, executive order of president johnson, creating the commission, and then the rules of procedure of the commission itself. mr. stovall. right. mr. jenner. and you appear voluntarily in an effort to assist the commission in its work? mr. stovall. yes. mr. jenner. we are investigating as you notice in those papers all the possible pertinent facts and circumstances surrounding that horrible event, to see if we can enlighten the citizenry of the country and at least get all of the facts recorded, and in the main, as a matter of fact, get rid of a lot of rumors that keep cropping up here and there, and since lee oswald was employed by your company, we would like to make some inquiries of your company, if we may. mr. stovall. yes. mr. jenner. are you a native of dallas, texas? mr. stovall. dallas; yes. mr. jenner. how old are you, by the way? mr. stovall. forty-three. mr. jenner. and is this your company--is it a corporation or a partnership? mr. stovall. it is a corporation. mr. jenner. are you the principal shareholder? mr. stovall. yes. mr. jenner. did you organize the company? mr. stovall. no; this is the second generation of the company. the original founders disposed of their holdings about - / years ago. mr. jenner. disposed of them to you and your family? mr. stovall. and several of our employees. mr. jenner. and you have been with the company how long? mr. stovall. twenty-five years. mr. jenner. that has been, i gather then, considering your age--your entire business career has been spent with jaggars-chiles-stovall? mr. stovall. well, except while i was in the navy and i worked summers while i was going to college. mr. jenner. where did you attend the university, by the way? mr. stovall. i went to texas tech and smu. i attended smu at night and worked in the day. mr. jenner. what does your company do? mr. stovall. we are in the typographic services. we serve advertising agencies, advertising departments, and the graphic arts industry as a middle supplier for type services. we also produce newspaper mats for duplication throughout the united states. mr. jenner. do you do any work for any federal agency? mr. stovall. yes, sir. mr. jenner. is it secret or confidential work or classified work of any kind? mr. stovall. on occasion we do. most of it is not, but we do on occasion. we are cleared through the navy bureau materiel here, although i believe it now has been incorporated under the department of defense as a single unit. mr. jenner. without disclosing any secrets in that connection or classifications, what is the nature of that work? mr. stovall. generally speaking, the nature of the work is charting and mapping, and actually all we do is set words, letters, and figures. we have no correlation of what they refer to. mr. jenner. it's charting of coastal areas, sea bottoms, and some land areas or what? mr. stovall. yes; and some foreign areas, too. mr. jenner. that is, other than continental united states? mr. stovall. yes; right. mr. jenner. was any of this work done in the department or area to which lee oswald had access while he was employed by your company? mr. stovall. not in the department at all. whatever secret work we might have been performing, we do it with the persons who had been cleared by the regular procedures and they are the only eyes who view this. mr. jenner. so, anything that is classified is done only by employees of yours who have been cleared by an appropriate federal agency? mr. stovall. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and then, i gather that as far as lee harvey oswald is concerned, he had no part in it nor access to any of this work? mr. stovall. this is correct. mr. jenner. and that your company is at pains to see that no one other than those who are cleared have access to it? mr. stovall. that is correct. mr. jenner. and that was true while he was working for you? mr. stovall. yes. in fact, at such times as we have any secret work going, even at the point of being rude, we see that no one has access to any of this material. i won't say--rude--but we strictly enforce it. mr. jenner. well, you make it pretty firm, which is right? mr. stovall. right. mr. jenner. do you do any lithography work? mr. stovall. no. mr. jenner. do you do any printing of advertisements, papers, newspapers, periodicals? mr. stovall. no. mr. jenner. you set type, of course? mr. stovall. we set type. the only printing we do is a proving process, and that should we do an ad, let's say some of the savings bond committee and ship one hundred mats, we would also ship one hundred proofs. mr. jenner. you pull off proofs but your presses are proof presses, and that's all? mr. stovall. right; we have no printing presses in this regard. mr. jenner. i take it you do a lot of camera work? mr. stovall. considerable; yes. mr. jenner. but it is commercial camera work? mr. stovall. right; it isn't even photography. it is only the part of reducing and enlarging printed material that we set in our type shop. it has to be re-sized and we also make screen veloxes. mr. jenner. explain for the record what that is. mr. stovall. a velox is a photographic print that has been screened by a dot press to separate the tone values in order that a camera can shoot them in black and white or in any group of colors, but it breaks it down into minute units that a camera will recognize. mr. jenner. that's like half tones for newspaper printing? mr. stovall. right. mr. jenner. do you do any plate work other than the mats? mr. stovall. no. mr. jenner. is the term "microdot printing" or lithographing familiar to you? mr. stovall. lithography is--microdot printing is not. mr. jenner. and you don't do any work of that nature and character? mr. stovall. no. mr. jenner. other than the preparation of or use of dot work as you have already described it? mr. stovall. yes. mr. jenner. you personally have no familiarity with microdot reduction of some image? mr. stovall. no; we have no equipment and i have no experience in that. i am familiar with the microfilm as to the advantages of it from the standpoint of storage and so forth, but as to participating in any microfilming operation, we don't. mr. jenner. or any microdot in printing? mr. stovall. no, sir. mr. jenner. for example, taking a by printed sheet and microdot reducing it to less than the area of a postage stamp. mr. stovall. there are several specialty houses here and this is all done by recordak and it is a specialty with them and they have the equipment. mr. jenner. but you have none and you have never done it? mr. stovall. no. mr. jenner. do you recall the circumstances under which lee harvey oswald was employed by your company? mr. stovall. i know the circumstances only from the statement made by john graef, the fellow you interviewed this morning. he made the interview himself. we were in the market for a trainee to learn this simple photoprint process. he has had a connection with the employment commission and the state employment commission for a quite a few years in that we use their services. that's what they are for. mr. jenner. you personally had nothing to do with oswald's initial employment? mr. stovall. no. mr jenner. that was mr. graef? mr. stovall. yes; he is the head of that department. mr. jenner. were you aware of his progress or lack of it? mr. stovall. yes--through their information. mr. jenner. through reports from mr. graef? mr. stovall. right. mr. jenner. and he kept you advised from time to time? mr. stovall. yes. mr. jenner. and you were personally aware of oswald's progress or lack of it? mr. stovall. right. mr. jenner. and were there any incidents that came to your attention with respect to oswald's relations with other employees? mr. stovall. not that i personally know of--on occasion one or two fellows would mention that they didn't have any real liking for him because he was such an oddball, but as far as i'm concerned, i never spoke to the fellow. mr. jenner. you saw him in and about the premises, however? mr. stovall. yes, sir; i have seen him in and about the premises. mr. jenner. did any occasion arise in which the subject of his conversation or his talking about russia arose or was reported to you? mr. stovall. only after he left our employ was any mention made of it. mr. jenner. tell us about that. mr. stovall. he sought employment at another company here in town, a printing company. mr. jenner. do you recall the name of that company? mr. stovall. padgett printing co.--padgett printing and lithographing co., and the superintendent over there called me and he gave us as a reference. mr. jenner. do you know the superintendent's name? mr. stovall. ted gangel. mr. jenner. would you spell it, please? mr. jenner. g-a-n-g-e-l [spelling], or g-a-n-g-l--i won't be sure. mr. jenner. they are here in dallas? mr. stovall. yes--he's their superintendent. he called me and asked me and i told him i did not know, but i would check, so i asked john graef and they said this fellow was kind of an oddball, and he was kinda peculiar sometimes and that he had had some knowledge of the russian language, which--this is all i knew, so i told ted, i said, "ted, i don't know, this guy may be a damn communist. i can't tell you. if i was you, i wouldn't hire him." so, he didn't, but he did come out of the marines and supposedly he had a discharge that was satisfactory but i did not ever see this discharge. mr. jenner. was anything said in connection with your inquiries at that time about his having had a russian language newspaper around your place of employment? mr. stovall. one of the fellows mentioned that he thought he might have, but in further discussion he was unable to pinpoint whether he was positive of this or whether he just thought it was. this fellow ofstein--i think he made mention of it, the fact that he thought he might have seen one. mr. jenner. well, he said not only did he see it, but that he read it. he had some command of the russian language himself. he was a student at the service language school in monterey, calif., when he was in the service. mr. stovall. actually, when i was talking to this fellow padgett, i was really just shooting off my mouth, but it seemed the way it turned out, that maybe there was a little bit of founding to it. mr. jenner. was there anything that came to your attention about his discharge from the marines? mr. stovall. no; i really didn't know any particulars on it until this incident happened. mr. jenner. it was subsequent to november , ? mr. stovall. no, previous to that. mr. jenner. did it ever come to your attention of oswald having any contact with any of your employees subsequent to the termination of his employment? mr. stovall. not that i know of. mr. jenner. i have here commission exhibit , which purports to be the original of an employee identification questionnaire of your company, with respect to lee harvey oswald, and would you look at it, please? mr. stovall. (examining instrument referred to.) mr. jenner. and are you familiar in fact with what it purports to be? mr. stovall. yes; this is the employment card that we had on him. mr. jenner. and that is part of your original books and records of your company, kept in the usual and regular course of business? mr. stovall. right--this was picked up by the secret service and somewhere i have a receipt from them, well, there is a negative--i destroyed the positive. mr. jenner. now, you are showing me a receipt and if i could read backwards, i would be able to read this. mr. stovall. if you have a mirror, you can look at it and read it. mr. jenner. off the record. (discussion between counsel jenner and the witness, mr. stovall, off the record.) mr. jenner. are you able to tell me whose handwriting that is in the extreme upper right-hand corner of exhibit ? mr. stovall. that is one of the personnel--in our bookkeeping and payroll department, and i could not tell you who it would be, but it would be one of three people. mr. jenner. but it is an entry by an employee of your company made in the usual and regular course of business, is it? mr. stovall. yes. mr. jenner. and it records the date of termination of oswald's employment? mr. stovall. right. mr. jenner. the sixth day of april ? mr. stovall. he was given notice the latter part of march, and our company's procedure is to give a fellow a week or days notice prior to the termination. mr. jenner. was his termination prospectively or otherwise discussed with you prior to it? mr. stovall. oh, probably it was--i would not say for sure whether it was or wasn't. i'm pretty much of a dog around there when things don't go right i'm the one that has to do all the yelling, and if a guy doesn't produce, i say, "let's do something," and from this basis i feel the responsibility to say that i probably had something to do with this termination, not as an individual, but only on his performance as far as the work standards were concerned. mr. jenner. what was this man's skill to the extent that you recall, in these areas in which you sought to train him? mr. stovall. he had no skill. he had no training whatsoever. you see, we employed him only as a trainee and i think we probably started him at $ . or $ . , or something like that, and automatically we give a youngster a - or -cent raise quarterly, but within months, if they have shown no aptitude, we give up on them and have a parting of the ways. mr. jenner. and that is what happened here? mr. stovall. yes; because we give them a raise doesn't mean that the person is competent, it means that it is just a system of employment we have when we start someone on minimum, or generally a -day basis, and we give them a nickel or dime, and then within a maximum of months, if they have shown no aptitude, we just have to terminate them. mr. jenner. that's in fairness to them as well as to your company? mr. stovall. right. mr. jenner. you also turned over to the secret service the application for employment that oswald made with padgett printing co.? mr. stovall. yes. i do not have that receipt with padgett. mr. jenner. how did you come to have that, by the way? mr. stovall. the secret service on saturday--i made contact with them--mr. deprato--this is his signature and i don't recall the other gentleman's name, and in our discussion, i mentioned the fact that i thought this fellow had sought employment with another company, but i didn't know what disposition had been made of it, and they asked would i call there, so while they were in my office i called, but there was no one there and i knew this fellow and i called his home and he is an astronomer as a hobby and he was giving a lecture to some students, so i made a contact with the person who was on the phone out here at the astronomy auditorium at the fair, and he called me and i asked him could i get hold of this application for the secret service and he said "yes," he would get it and bring it by, and in the meantime these fellows had gone somewhere else and i told them i would meet them sunday in my office, so i did and gave it to them. the reason i had it--they asked me to secure it for them. mr. jenner. and you did? mr. stovall. and i did. mr. jenner. the expression "microdots" does that mean anything to you? mr. stovall. no; we have never gotten any microfilming processes whatsoever. mr. jenner. mr. stovall, your able employee, mr. graef, has given me a good deal of detail and has been very helpful and likewise you have been. is there anything that i have failed to bring out here because i don't know about it or haven't been stimulated to do so that you think might be helpful to the commission in its investigation? mr. stovall. i don't believe so. there was such a short period of time this fellow worked for us and he was a constant source of irritation because of his lack of productive ability, that---- mr. jenner. would you elaborate on that, please? mr. stovall. we would ask him to reduce a line to inches in width, that happened to be , and he might make it - / or - / , and this was a loss in labor and materials both, and it had to be redone. mr. jenner. did this occur with greater frequency than you thought--than your people thought was permissible, having in mind the progress which you would expect of him or a man in his position to have attained? mr. stovall. yes; that's true. mr. jenner. what about his relations with others in the company--other employees--how did he get along, or did that come to your attention? mr. stovall. i don't think anyone liked him or disliked him either one. he was just one of those people you don't know. if you don't know a guy, you can't know if you don't like him. that's probably the main reason we don't like him. someone made mention in one instance that he bumped them in a dark room, which is a walkway area, and if a guy's bent over a tray and somebody else is coming by--he will get bumped, and it depends on who is doing the bumping, whether you get upset about it or not. mr. jenner. well, it can be done without taking offense to one another? mr. stovall. there's nothing at all wrong in it. there's no pain at all in saying "excuse me." mr. jenner. yes; and apparently he was not inclined to do that. mr. stovall. it seems that that's so--yes. mr. jenner. have you had an impression as to whether he was an outgoing person or a reserved person--keeping to himself? mr. stovall. i think he must have been reserved, because the fellows who worked right with him, no one seems to have had any particular conversation with him. one guy invited him to go to church and he had such an unpleasant reception to it that that was the end of that. mr. jenner. what incident was that--tell us about that. mr. stovall. well, the fellow asked him what his religion was, and he asked him if he would like to go to church and i don't know what he said, but that was the end of that. mr. jenner. he made it pretty clear he didn't want to go? mr. stovall. it seems that's the way it was. mr. jenner. and he didn't want to be bothered by anyone? mr. stovall. he didn't want to discuss it either. mr. jenner. all right; does anything else occur to you? mr. stovall. not that i know of--the fellow had a good record of being on the job, i mean, he didn't have any absenteeism. mr. jenner. he was prompt and worked every day and had little in the way of absenteeism? mr. stovall. yes. mr. jenner. mr. graef said that he sought overtime employment; do you recall that? mr. stovall. only by his statements that he made it known that he was available to work on saturday and he simply had a wife and kid and needed the money and i'm sure that he did, as far as that goes, because of the rate of pay he was working, living in these times, it didn't go very far. mr. jenner. your overall impression is that he was an industrious person? mr. stovall. he was inefficient--i wouldn't say he was industrious--if he would have maybe applied himself at least--he was inept in this particular craft. mr. jenner. all right. we appreciate this very much. now, you have the right to read your deposition, and make any corrections in it you wish and to sign it. miss oliver ought to have it ready sometime this week, if you wish to do that. you may obtain a copy if you wish by arrangement with her and she charges cents a page. mr. stovall. well, is it part of your procedure that i sign your copy? mr. jenner. no; you may waive it. mr. stovall. i don't have any use for it. mr. jenner. you don't have any use for it and you don't care to come back and read it for purposes of correction, at least your curiosity might bring you to read it sometime--other than that you have no desire to come back? mr. stovall. i suppose it is for the corporation--i should put it with our papers. that is my only reason for wanting it. that--the same as we are keeping these. mr. jenner. you have two employees here--mr. graef and mr. ofstein--do you want her to write all three depositions or just your own? mr. stovall. well, is the writing she does--is this the only reason it is for us? mr. jenner. no; we have it written up for ourselves and that is why you can obtain a copy at cents a page. mr. stovall. if there is some means of getting a copy of it--the only reason i was wanting it is for the record. i don't care anything about it otherwise--i suppose it might be of use. if this is out of order or anything, as far as i am concerned--that's all right. mr. jenner. it's nothing out of order at all--all she does is for the small price of cents a page is just a matter of preparing an extra copy, so, you go ahead and prepare a set, then, and i would suggest that you deliver it under seal to mr. stovall. do you want all three or just your own? mr. stovall. if you don't mind i would just put the others in there, too. mr. jenner. yes, i understand; some people under the circumstances you are in do obtain copies, so that they can keep them in the corporate records. mr. stovall. well, it's from the standpoint of corporate records of all the interviews and questions and so forth that we have been through on this--we have nothing other than three receipts and somewhere down the line in the years to come i would like to have it. mr. jenner. you will find along the line in these depositions that they have covered everything that has been covered before and some more. we are able to probe a little more than those boys. they knew what they were after but they didn't have all the information that we have now. mr. stovall. well, the men whom i have been in contact with have been nothing but nice. mr. jenner. oh, yes; the secret service men are always nice. mr. stovall. they are gentlemen of the first degree. mr. jenner. well, i can certify to that--they are very fine and very helpful, and greatly grieved over this as everybody else is. that's all and thank you very much for coming. mr. stovall. all right. thank you. testimony of john g. graef the testimony of john g. graef was taken at : a.m., on march , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. albert e. jenner, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. robert t. davis, assistant attorney general of texas, was present. mr. jenner. would you rise and be sworn, please, mr. graef? mr. graef. certainly. mr. jenner. do you solemnly swear in your testimony to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? mr. graef. i do. mr. jenner. mr. graef, i am albert e. jenner, jr., and i am a member of the legal staff of the commission appointed to investigate the assassination of president kennedy, our president, and i think mr. rankin of the commission sent you, or you have received from mr. rankin, a letter together with copies of the senate joint resolution , creating the commission, authorizing its creation, and president johnson's executive order , appointing the commission and fixing its power and also a copy of the procedural regulations adopted by the commission with respect to the taking of testimony. mr. graef. that's correct. mr. jenner. and you appear here voluntarily? mr. graef. yes; i do. mr. jenner. the commission, as you know from those documents, is appointed to investigate the circumstances surrounding the assassination of president kennedy, and particularly any facts and circumstances respecting the involvement of lee harvey oswald, and that tragic event, and seeks to gain information from those who had some touch with his life, and we understand you had some connection with him with respect to an early employment, in , by mr. oswald, in your company--jaggars, j-a-g-g-a-r-s [spelling], chiles, c-h-i-l-e-s [spelling], stovall, s-t-o-v-a-l-l [spelling]. mr. jenner. off the record. (discussion between counsel jenner and the witness, graef, off the record.) mr. jenner. our information is that lee oswald was an employee of jaggars-chiles-stovall in october ; is that correct? mr. graef. that's correct. mr. jenner. now, you lived at browder, b-r-o-w-d-e-r [spelling]? mr. graef. no; that is the address of the firm--jaggars-chiles-stovall. mr. jenner. you reside where? mr. graef. at turtle creek. mr. jenner. here in dallas? mr. graef. that is correct. mr. jenner. and you have been a resident here in dallas for about how long? mr. graef. approximately years. mr. jenner. and you are a married man and have a family, i assume? mr. graef. that's correct. mr. jenner. and how long have you been employed or associated with jaggars-chiles-stovall? mr. graef. about or years; perhaps a little longer. mr. jenner. since your earlier answer that oswald was employed at one time in october , by this company, do you have knowledge or reasonably direct information as to the circumstances leading up to his employment, and what kind of an employee he was? mr. graef. yes; i do. mr. jenner. would you, in your own words, just tell us about it? mr. graef. certainly. mr. jenner. start at the very beginning, as best you can, so i can get the whole story of the matter. mr. graef. fine. about that time--it was, i believe, october, i don't have any written information in front of me that i recall---- mr. jenner. this is ? mr. graef. that's correct--i'll have to recall as best i can. in about october , as director of our photographic department we found ourselves in need of another man, so at this time i called the texas employment commission and spoke to them about sending me someone having as close as possible the abilities that might work out in our photographic department. mr. jenner. would you tell us what you told her in that connection, as best as you can reconstruct it, giving us her name--it was a her? mr. graef. i believe i remember--yes--louise latham. mr. jenner. what your normal practice is in that respect? mr. graef. yes. mr. jenner. and, particularly what you did on this occasion? mr. graef. being the director of the photographic department for some time, on numerous occasions it has been necessary for me to call and ask the texas employment and other sources for help in the normal turnover of employees that come up in any business. mr. jenner. could you tell me something about those normal sources, because we may wish to look to them and see if we can find anybody else who had any possible contact with this man? mr. graef. surely. i can't name other employment agencies, but i will say, private employment agencies who occasionally have called us and told us that they had someone they thought had ability along our line, but this hadn't been as successful to us as the texas employment commission. they seem to have a bigger repertoire of personnel needing jobs. mr. jenner. is that a public agency? mr. graef. yes; it is. mr. jenner. state or local? mr. graef. state; it is a state agency. mr. jenner. it is here in dallas? mr. graef. it is here in dallas. mr. jenner. the office you called? mr. graef. the office i called--that's correct. mr. jenner. i assume it has offices in other cities in texas? mr. graef. i believe so; so i called--but to reiterate--mainly our best source of employees has been the texas employment commission. they have a larger pool to draw from, so i called--in the course of my dealing with them--they have various departments and in the course of dealing with them, i became familiar with one person. our particular photographic department is not one that we find experienced personnel readily, and the work we do is, i would say, quite different in various ways from ordinary photography, as most people know it. i will enlarge on that slightly by saying we do many, many things with letters. for example, we can take a straight line of type and we can curve it or bend it or twist it or put it in a circle, for example, and so, rather than just taking pictures of people as ordinary photographers do, this work which we perform for advertising agencies and artists in this area is a matter of training, learning first to use the equipment we have which takes some time, and then the differences in the material that we use. for example, the characteristics of photographic paper, the characteristics of chemicals that we use, and it is only after learning and becoming familiar with the equipment and the materials that then you find out whether an employee will produce the work properly, on time, and well, and so, it is usually some time before an employee develops into or either becomes the kind of employee you want. in other words, after this training period, and you have spent time with him teaching him the equipment and the material, perhaps at this late date, many months by now may have gone by--perhaps he can't--he isn't careful enough in the job--he begins producing, but perhaps we will say he doesn't work as hard as you would like, so quite often we spend a great deal of time teaching someone, only to find out after some months have passed that he isn't a desirable employee, but is just one of those things. we must, of course, in order to find out if they will do the job, go through the process of teaching him the equipment and about the materials, so i've gone into this because it will help later on in explaining the termination of lee oswald with us, but because of these various facts that i have mentioned, i became familiar with one person in particular down at the employment office, the texas employment commission--the agency. i, of course, had never met this person, but through phone conversations i explained after many times what i needed, the type person i was looking for--perhaps with an artistic background, perhaps with photographic experience somewhere, in the army or elsewhere, and i told her the various attributes that i thought a person should have in order to make a success of our work. mr. jenner. would you try to reconstruct this now--just assume you are on the telephone now. mr. graef. okay. mr. jenner. and carry yourself back out there to a year and a half ago? mr. graef. yes; i'll try to do that. so, i called this person repeatedly--after the first call or two--this has gone on now over several years and she knew the type person i was looking for and the type of experience that i was looking for, so i called her, and her name was louise latham. mr. jenner. is she still employed by the texas employment agency, do you know? mr. graef. i don't know--i really don't know--a very charming person over the phone. mr. jenner. and, had you put in this call, let's say--how long before she sent, if she did, lee harvey oswald over to see you--when did you start out to seek this employee, is what i am getting at? mr. graef. let me refer to this employee questionnaire. mr. jenner. does that have an exhibit number on it? mr. graef. yes, no. . mr. jenner. commission exhibit no. . mr. graef. now, it says here he was employed october , , so i would say probably weeks prior to that time, roughly about the st of october was when i placed the call. mr. jenner. do you recall whether anybody other than or in addition to lee oswald had been sent you before he came? mr. graef. yes. i don't remember the sequence--whether lee was first or whether lee was last. as i recall, there were about two or three--all of them young men, average young men--lee oswald was average. mr. jenner. would you have in your files--what do you call that that is marked "commission exhibit "? mr. graef. i am holding in my hand this same commission exhibit no. , and it's an employee identification questionnaire of our firm jaggars-chiles-stovall. mr. jenner. would you have had a card, would it still be retained in your files for the other people you might have interviewed? mr. graef. no. no--i wouldn't. normally, when the texas employment commission sends someone over for an interview, i meet them and we sit down, of course, and discuss their past history, employment history, and the various personal histories of that person. the texas employment commission sends a card over from them, telling who the bearer is and it also has a space on it that says "was this employee hired?", which you will mail back to them and "not hired," and the reason why you didn't hire them, and in every case, as i recall, the people whom i did not hire, i would just mark it in the appropriate space and drop it in the mail and it is returned to them. so, of these two or three young men who came to me after--at this period, about october , lee was one of them and seemed to me to be the most serious and a shade--i'm searching for the right word--when i say "serious" and just a shade more determined, perhaps--he seemed like he had had a slight edge on the other one or two fellows that came there, and i thought--well---- mr. jenner. i take it that you personally did the interviewing of all of these? mr. graef. that's correct. mr. jenner. including lee harvey oswald? mr. graef. that's correct. i had talked with this mrs. louise latham, it's mrs.--also--each time she would call. of course, i would notify her that i could use another employee and perhaps or days would go by until she saw, knowing these various things that i needed--she would call me and say, "i believe i have a young man who looks like a pretty good prospect," and so i would say, "thank you." and she would send him over. mr. jenner. have you now recited all of the things you indicated to her in connection with this particular employment or in employment need? mr. graef. i---- mr. jenner. as to what you were looking for. mr. graef. yes; i believe so. mr. jenner. right. mr. graef. so, lee came over and i met him in the outer office. he handed me the employment card from the texas employment commission. this, as i remember, just has a name and address and who sent him, and then was he hired or was he not hired. mr. jenner. do you recall how he looked--how he was attired, for example, on that occasion--that's a pretty big order? mr. graef. yes--my memory fails me a little here, but it seems to me he wore a suit, a dark gray suit, modestly dressed and he was very businesslike and likeable. mr. jenner. you say your recollection doesn't serve you well as to his attire on this particular occasion? mr. graef. that's correct. mr. jenner. it could be that he did not have a suit--gray? a collar, or otherwise? mr. graef. it could have been, yes, but that's just an impression that hits my mind, but i could very easily be wrong. mr. jenner. could he have had a white t-shirt and one of these lightweight zipper jackets on? mr. graef. no--no, definitely not. mr. jenner. definitely not? mr. graef. no. mr. jenner. you have a definite recollection that he had a suit coat on? mr. graef. yes, his appearance was as most young men would appear in applying for a job--tend to look nice and he made a nice appearance. mr. jenner. all right. mr. graef. so, he came in---- mr. jenner. excuse me, did he have a tie? mr. graef. yes. mr. jenner. he did have a tie? mr. graef. yes; i'm pretty certain he had a tie. mr. jenner. he gave you a reasonably fair impression? mr. graef. that's correct. mr. jenner. at first blush? mr. graef. that's correct--he came in and i met him in the outer office, and we sat down in the outer office. mr. jenner. i take it you had never seen this man before? mr. graef. no; that's correct. mr. jenner. had you ever heard of him before? mr. graef. no. mr. jenner. did anything occur during the course of that interview which triggered any thought in your mind that you might have, or could have heard about him before? mr. graef. no. mr. jenner. as an individual? mr. graef. no. mr. jenner. he remained throughout a complete stranger except to the extent of your questioning, which elicited some knowledge of him? mr. graef. that's right. he was at that time a complete stranger. i had never seen him before or heard of him before. he was just another applicant for a job, is what it amounted to. mr. jenner. all right. go ahead. mr. graef. so, we sat down and he gave me the card and he told me his name was lee harvey oswald, and we went through the normal job interview that we give most young men. i know--i don't, of course, remember--because of the time it has been, the exact extent of our whole conversation, but i do remember various phases of it. mr. jenner. reconstruct it to the extent that you can and avoid to the extent you can assumption--that something must have happened and finally give us, to the best of your ability, what you do recall, even though you don't recall it on the button, so to speak. mr. graef. well, certain parts of it i remember almost word for word, and then, of course, other, i think less important parts, i have forgotten completely. i do remember that--i believe that mrs. latham in the texas employment agency--at the time that she called me, she said that he had recently been discharged from the marines. when he came in, i found this--that i was just slightly embarrassed that i had forgotten it, and among the other duties, of course--these things will happen, and when he sat down and introduced himself as lee harvey oswald, i asked him where his last position was, and he said, "the marines," and i recovered slightly, remembering that i had already been told this and, to cover up my embarrassment slightly, i laughed and i said, "oh, yes." i said, "honorably discharged, of course," as a joke, and he said, "oh, yes," and we went on with other facts of the interview. i remember him--i don't believe he gave me an address. i think he said it was just temporary where he was staying, or something to that effect. i also believe at the time he told me he had a wife and a child or a child coming. i don't remember exactly about that, because i, of course--any employer is looking for someone dependable and a family man offers perhaps a little more dependability, needing a position, than a single person. so, that i think is about--i think i did ask him where--when he mentioned the marines, where he had served, and i believe he told me korea, and i didn't go into it any further. i felt reasonably sure because he had come through the texas employment commission--i didn't even think of checking on his honorable discharge--honorable or dishonorable or questionable discharge. i somehow had just assumed being through a state agency, that they perhaps had a much larger file on him, that my going into various details would just be going over--plowing up ground again, so i just figured--i never even thought about checking into his discharge or when he had been discharged. i think he had been discharged sometime prior to this--i don't at the moment remember exactly when he got out of the marines or was discharged, but the impression that was left with me and i suppose he told this to mrs. latham--was that it had been a very recent thing, because i recall that that's what she told me, and that's what he told me when he came to me--when i asked him. mr. jenner. that it had been very recent? mr. graef. oh, yes; it had been very recent, because when i asked him about his last employment he said, "the marines," he had just gotten out of the marines, and then i recovered, you know, and said, "oh, yes," because louise latham had already told me this. at any rate, he seemed the applicant with the best chance of success that had been sent over. mr. jenner. would you go back a little bit? mr. graef. certainly. mr. jenner. what inquiries did you make of him with respect to your qualifications for this position--his prior experience, if any? mr. graef. none--none. i assumed that--now, he was sent over, if i remember right--i was also told by this mrs. latham, something about that he had perhaps some photographic experience in the marines or there was some--there was some quality there that helped. and i believe it was that he had had a little bit of photograph experience in the marines that might be helpful. in other words, he was a little familiar with the processing of film and so forth and, of course, this would add a little weight to his becoming a successful employee. mr. jenner. i take it from your recital up to this moment that you are primarily interested at this point, having in mind the nature of the business, that this man would embrace ultimately what you were looking more for--let's say--general character, whether he seemed like a man who was going to be in this community a while? mr. graef. yes. mr. jenner. whether he was sincerely interested in obtaining employment that you expected to rely upon your teaching--i mean your company--under your supervision and direction--the teaching and training of this man for the position which you ultimately would seek to fill. mr. graef. yes; very well put. mr. jenner. and it might even have been that if this man had no photographic experience whatsoever, but seemed--well, let's say clean cut and eager and intelligent, just out of the marines and seeking to obtain employment and settle down, that that might have been sufficient qualifications for you? mr. graef. yes--if, of course, there was no one with any better promise that came along. mr. jenner. yes. mr. graef. there have been several times when we have needed someone, when they would send two or three people over, and it was necessary for us to pick someone who had practically no experience in this work because you don't find anyone who is experienced in the type work we do. it is a very highly specialized trade. the best you can hope to find is perhaps, and i'll tell you as i told this mrs. latham, the person that stands the best chance of success is perhaps someone who is industrious, willing to work, and not afraid of work, who perhaps has some artistic ability, because the area is opaquing of negatives with brushes and so forth, and possibly has some photographic experience, where they may know about paper and at least there will be some processes that they may have already learned or become familiar with and we won't have to begin from the very beginning. mr. jenner. you are talking about photographic paper? mr. graef. yes. mr. jenner. for example, some young man who has had an abiding interest in amateur photography, in developing his own film---- mr. graef. that's correct, and so you see he would become familiar with quite a few things in his hobby that he would know about when he came to work for us. we wouldn't have to start from the very beginning and say, "now, this is film, and this is paper," and the difference between the two and start from the very beginning. so, to explain a little bit about why i didn't make any inquiries, i didn't frankly feel that any were necessary. the fact that he had--that the employment agency had said--told me--that he had recently been discharged from the marines, or had gotten out of the marines, and the fact that he had backed up that statement immediately when he came over and said that he had been recently discharged from the marines, and i asked him if he had been honorably discharged, more as a joke, and he said "yes," he had. to me, what background was there to check into? was i going to go through his commanding officer or his sergeant, for example? mr. jenner. well, it was a half truth--he had been honorably discharged and then dishonorably discharged. mr. graef. i wish i had--but the whole thing, of course, seemed so on the level that i just hoped that he would be a person that could fill the job. mr. jenner. was this interview in the ordinary course of business? mr. graef. oh, yes. mr. jenner. and having in mind the particular position you desired to train the man for whom you were looking, and having in mind the work--the background of work of the texas employment agency, you made, i take it, the inquiries you would normally make under the circumstances? mr. graef. yes. mr. jenner. there was nothing extraordinary about this? mr. graef. no. mr. jenner. out of the ordinary pattern? mr. graef. no--he came in for this interview sometime in the morning, : or : , and we perhaps talked for minutes. of course, i took down his name and whatever information i could get on a piece of paper, just for my own record, as i did with the other two or three boys that had come previously or after him, and finally there was no one else, and so then i had to make a decision, and, of course, i think i threw this piece of paper away because they were just personal notes that i had made about the interview, so that i could look back and remind myself who was who. so, i believe, in fact i am very certain that lee called me back--i told him--at the time i interviewed him, i thought i knew that he had the best chance of the other fellows of doing the job, and usually i call them and would tell them that they are hired, but i think in this case that there was no phone and that when i asked him could i call him and let him know whether he had been hired or whether he had not been hired--he said, "no, there is no phone" where i could call him, and i said, "well, i'll be making a decision perhaps tomorrow and if you would care to call, i can let you know then." mr. jenner. didn't that excite any wonder on your part that there was no telephone at which he could be reached? mr. graef. no, not really. it's surprising how many of the young men are in transit or moving--in many, many cases the people that have applied for the job--it may just be circumstantial, but the people that have applied for work with me don't have phones. they may have a neighbor somewhere who they might give, but usually that's reluctant because the neighbor doesn't want to be bothered and many, many of them won't have phones, and many, many of them have very temporary addresses. i mean, it may be a room somewhere where they are residing for or or days and they are in the process of finding some other place to live, so this didn't excite any curiosity at all on my part. the fact that he had again said he had been discharged recently from the marines--it seemed entirely plausible that he was trying to find--he said he had a wife and either a baby--like i say, i don't remember whether the baby was coming or already here--i think she was here at that time. i think he said he had a wife and baby. i could easily see how he would be looking or could have been looking for a few weeks for better quarters and would not have a phone and would not have a permanent address. so, this didn't excite any particular curiosity on my part and i was intent, of course, on finding a dependable employee. that was my main concern, so, i at this interview felt that he had the best chance of making a go of this than the other applicants and so i told him, "i'll be deciding definitely in a day or two. call me back," which he did and i said, "okay, come on in to work." mr. jenner. so that you were not looking for any special skill. if the gentleman whom you were interviewing had it, that would be a plus factor? mr. graef. correct--correct. mr. jenner. do you recall inquiring of him the extent, if any, of his skills with respect to photography and his experience in that connection, if any? mr. graef. i don't recall; no. i believe i may have--because this would be one of the normal things i would do in an interview. i think that he exhibited enough, as i recall--i think he exhibited enough knowledge that there again--about photography, that there was no curiosity raised on my part that he didn't know about it. i'm almost certain that i generally just asked him one or two things about it and he answered them satisfactorily, or i would have, because that's the usual thing--i asked them about these things--artistic ability, any photographic experience, are you handy with your hands--they work with their hands a good deal, and all these things combined, would combine to make a topnotch man provided he worked. mr. jenner. yes. mr. graef. provided he was industrious and wanted to do a good job. we'll say he wasn't lazy--at the same time--so the various qualities i'm looking for in our type of work, in our department, are pretty hard to find all of them in one man. so, lee came to work for us--i don't remember the exact salary; but it was about, oh, somewhere, i think about $ . or $ . an hour; somewhere in there. mr. jenner. was that for a -hour week? mr. graef. yes. mr. jenner. looking at commission exhibit no. again, would you identify the handwriting and block printing on this exhibit , if you can? there appears the word "terminated" with the date - - , which i assume is april , ? mr. graef. yes. mr. jenner. in whose handwriting is that notation; do you know? mr. graef. i don't know; i don't know. now, this is my handwriting--the date employed--october , . i am almost positive that this is lee's block printing. mr. jenner. that is the name "lee harvey oswald"? mr. graef. "lee harvey oswald," and the various data on this card--the social security number and the phone number. mr. jenner. in view of your testimony, i'd like to ask you about that. now, there is a phone number there--is that la- - ? mr. graef. that's correct. mr. jenner. in view of what you said that he responded to your inquiry that he didn't have a phone number, how do you account for how that phone number got into the blocks there? mr. graef. into this box here--at the time that i interviewed him, it was probably--then, i--after this card was written, he may have been employed here at our place, oh, perhaps a week or two before this card was brought in to him to sign. mr. jenner. i see. mr. graef. in other words, i think because of the busy way the department runs, sometimes days will elapse before we get around to getting one of these to him and getting his social security number and so forth. in other words, he came to work and some days may have elapsed from the time, for example, that we had the interviews, there may have been some days passed before he actually came to work. now, at this time, when i took this information down on my notes, my personal notes of the interview, there was no phone number, as i recall. mr. jenner. yes. mr. graef. now, at the time i didn't notice this at all, but at the time that this was written, of course--here the phone number is, so he obviously had a phone number at this time, but he didn't, as i remember, he didn't, because i didn't call him--i don't believe. mr. jenner. now, do you recognize the handwriting in which that phone number and the social security number are? mr. graef. yes; i am pretty sure that that is lee's printing. mr. jenner. then, to the left under the heading "name in full," and above that is lee harvey oswald, you have testified to that, and the next line is "present address." mr. graef. yes. mr. jenner. there appears immediately above those printed words " fairmount," and that is lined out. do you recognize that handwriting? mr. graef. the " fairmount," i am certain is lee's also. mr. jenner. and above that is elsbeth street? mr. graef. yes; now, i don't recognize that handwriting. now, this card would ordinarily be kept in the front office; it would not be in my possession, and so for some reason this is probably one of the office personnel who wrote this and crossed that--lee's writing--out and wrote in this at the top for some reason or other. mr. jenner. wrote in elsbeth street? mr. graef. that's correct. mr. jenner. and the next line there appears the word "permanent home address," and above that is p.o. box . mr. graef. yes. mr. jenner. you don't know that handwriting? mr. graef. i don't know that handwriting; i don't recognize that. mr. jenner. you don't recall his having advised you that he had a post office box? mr. graef. no--no. mr. jenner. you were about to refer to a figure number, "number of dependents." there appears to have been a " " written in there, and an overlay on top of that is a " "? mr. graef. the " " is mine. now, i don't know why--i can almost remember writing that " " but whether he changed his mind and wanted it put " "--that sometimes happens with income tax the way it is--that may have happened because he first was going to take two dependents and then decided to change it to a " "--it was probably about the time that this was brought in. it looks like my " " but i'm not sure about it. i've looked at it and it looks like a " " that i might make over it, but i can't recall. i thought i might help a little there but i don't think i can. whether he wrote down " " on the number of dependents and then decided--when the card was in my possession, when i was going to turn it into the front office to make it " ", and then i changed it--that may have happened, but i do not recall. mr. jenner. well, it is obviously either a different handwriting or certainly a different instrument. mr. graef. yes. mr. jenner. that's a different signature. mr. graef. i was just comparing the pen i used to--used up here and this may be pencil. no, i believe it is a ballpoint pen. mr. jenner. now, that card is signed "lee harvey oswald." do you recall whether the card was signed in your presence? mr. graef. no; it may not have been. in other words, generally, we hand this card to an employee and he fills out the whole card and then i would take it and turn it up to the front office, so i could have been back in the department working when he filled the whole thing out and signed it. mr. jenner. now, is commission exhibit part of the books and records of jaggars-chiles-stovall kept in the usual and regular course of business? mr. graef. yes. mr. jenner. and prepared in part by you and the remaining part under your general supervision and direction? mr. graef. yes; i would say. in other words, i turned the card over to the employee and asked him to fill it out with the information it has on the card. he returns it to me and i turn it into the front office. mr. jenner. and this particular card, with respect to lee harvey oswald, to the best of your recollection was made and thereafter maintained among other books, files, and records and documents of jaggars-chiles-stovall as they ordinarily are? mr. graef. yes; they are. mr. jenner. there is nothing unusual, extraordinary or out of line? mr. graef. no. mr. jenner. with respect to the manner in which and the circumstances under which commission exhibit came into existence and was maintained? mr. graef. that's correct. mr. jenner. and to the best of your knowledge, information and belief, is this card now in the same condition it was as of the date of termination of employment of lee harvey oswald, except for the pencil notation in the extreme bottom right hand portion of the card on its face and in which appeared in an encirclement, the letter "d" and the figure " "? mr. graef. to the best of my knowledge, it is. i haven't seen the card since i turned it into the office at the time that he was employed, so the handwriting that says, "terminated," there, and that date--i haven't seen--i mean whether the card has been altered or not i don't know, because, of course, i didn't see it at any time after that date. mr. jenner. you mean after the date terminated - - ? mr. graef. yes; after "terminated" was written there. i haven't actually seen the card since the time that he was employed, roughly, since he wrote the card out and handed it to me and i turned it into the front office. to the best of my recollection that's the last time i have seen that. mr. jenner. now, you do recall that this card, at least to the extent of the name, lee harvey oswald, in block printing and your handwriting of the date october , --that was filled out to that extent at least in your presence? mr. graef. mainly, yes. i mean, i may have been in the department and doing some other tasks, but he sat down and filled it out. i gave it to him and he sat down somewhere and filled it out and i may have been moving around somewhere. i didn't actually watch him write it out word for word and line for line. the reason this october is in my handwriting--ordinarily the employee fills that out. mr. jenner. that appears opposite the printed words, "date employed"? mr. graef. yes; ordinarily, the employee will go ahead and fill that date in also, but he had forgotten to and this was probably filled out a few days after he was employed. mr. jenner. but that is in your handwriting? mr. graef. but that is in my handwriting. i vaguely recall that he had not filled that in and i said something, "i'll save you the trouble," and then i wrote that in. mr. jenner. all right. i offer in evidence as commission exhibit no. , the employee identification questionnaire of jaggars-chiles-stovall co. which has now been identified. how long have you been employed by jaggars-chiles-stovall? mr. graef. approximately or --i've almost forgotten--it seems it was either or , i came with them. mr. jenner. is this an old dallas firm? mr. graef. yes. mr. jenner. by reputation, how long has it been around here? mr. graef. i believe about since . mr. jenner. does this company do any lithography? mr. graef. no. mr. jenner. tell us in general, apart from your particular interests and work in the company, what in general does the company do? mr. graef. we set type. we have an enormous inventory of all kinds of type faces, all designs, for example, scripts--roman letters, sans serif faces--an enormous repertoire of styles from which advertising agencies and artists can choose to make up advertisements for headlines or body copy. this basically is our biggest function. we don't do any printing. mr. jenner. do you make mats? mr. graef. yes; it's a rather complete service. we can take an advertisement from the very beginning and actually carry it all the way through to the end, to the point where we mail the mats to the newspapers for insertion, but we don't do any printing as such, of any kind. mr. jenner. are you a native of dallas? mr. graef. no. mr. jenner. just tell me in a few words something about yourself? mr. graef. oh, golly--i was born in chicago, ill. mr. jenner. so was i. mr. graef. i went to lane tech. mr. jenner. i went to lindblom high school, and that's where i practiced law and have done for years. mr. graef. well, i haven't been back there for quite some time. i left there about , after graduating from high school, took commercial art at lane tech, and i went down to tennessee and worked at the kingsport press designing book covers and also the holston ordnance works, and during the very beginning of the war, this was the last--the second world war--then i was drafted into the service and served as an airborne engineer for years. mr. jenner. in the army? mr. graef. yes; i spent years overseas and came back to kingsport, tenn., and then the wife and i decided to head west, and while i was away, she had written various chambers of commerce around the country and the dallas chamber of commerce did the best job, so we decided to take a short vacation here and see if i could find work, which i did, and which we did and i did, and this was in , so we have been here ever since. mr. jenner. you were each native born americans? mr. graef. that's correct. and honorably discharged--period. mr. jenner. now, this man is employed--carry on. mr. graef. yes. mr. jenner. was he regular in his arrival at work? mr. graef. yes. mr. jenner. were his work habits in that connection satisfactory? mr. graef. yes. i would say he was very punctual in his arrival to work. he began working under me and i began the process of teaching him how to use our equipment. mr. jenner. all right. now, he worked directly with you or under you or under your supervision and direction? mr. graef. that's correct--that's correct. he was with me a great part of the time. of course, there are various times when i couldn't be with him, but for the better part of the first or months of his employment--he worked for us approximately months. mr. jenner. tell us what you taught him and how you attempted to train him and in what, and give me also, when you are doing that, his skills and aptitudes, as you recall them at the beginning? mr. graef. well, as i have explained, the most we hope for in a person is that perhaps any past skills they have will help them in learning our work, but basically our work is so different that there is no experienced help, and everyone who comes into the department is automatically a trainee. mr. jenner. and he fell into that category? mr. graef. that's correct. all our cameras are different from the ordinary cameras you find in commercial printing shops or printing establishments. mr. jenner. are these portable cameras or fixed cameras? mr. graef. no, fixed cameras--dark room cameras. mr. jenner. when i used the expression "fixed," i had in my own mind that they would be these large-size cameras, fixed in the sense that they would be adjacent to a wall or a bench or a table. mr. graef. or the floor? mr. jenner. or the floor. mr. graef. yes. mr. jenner. and be so heavy as not to be portable or so firmly secured as not to be removable? mr. graef. yes; that's right. mr. jenner. would you indicate their size? mr. graef. i would say approximately feet long total length, with or feet of the front of the camera projecting through a wall, which on the outside of that wall have the exposure lights to light whatever you are going to shoot. then, the back of the camera sticks through the wall in the darkroom and on the back of the camera, of course, you place your light-sensitive film and make your exposure this way. mr. jenner. and do you use light-sensitive film plates? mr. graef. no; ordinary commercial litho film or ortho film that are generally available from large companies. mr. jenner. indicate the size of the frames? mr. graef. approximately by inches. the difference in these cameras--they are commonly known as modification cameras. as i said previously, you could take a line of type and twist it or curve it or stretch it out of proportion. as they are different compared with ordinary cameras that are used in most places throughout the country in that they do not have any scales on them. ordinarily you measure a piece of copy and you set the cameras on a certain number, and for example, the same size--if you wanted to make the same size shot, you would set your copy board on no. , and you would set your film carrier on no. , put your film in and make your exposure, and you get a same size shot, but our cameras have no scales and you have to find visually and manually your sizes, everything is flexible on the camera. the boards move---- mr. jenner. what boards? mr. graef. the copy boards can twist. the film carrier can twist. mr. jenner. when you say "twist" do you mean twist the image? mr. graef. on its axis--actually twist on its axis. mr. jenner. you mean "twist" as distinguished from "turn"? mr. graef. well, let me say "turn"--then. can turn on its axis. the lens camera can be shifted up or down or to the right or left. there are various devices that are supplied with the camera, consisting of prisms through which you can make distortions, various other forms which can be used to make various complicated bends and waves in type or illustrations, or what have you. mr. jenner. now, the bends or waves--when you say bends or waves in type, you mean you do not bend or twist the copy itself--that is, the thing to be photographed, but by use of prisms and other distortion devices, the image implanted on the film is a twist or distortion of the copy or photograph? mr. graef. yes; except we do both. mr. jenner. you do straight photographing as well as distortion photography? mr. graef. well, many times, we will take the actual copy and twist it. anything goes to get the final results, whatever has to be done, for example if we want to make a curved shot of a label, a flat two-dimensional label, a printed label, and we wanted to curve that label, we might take an empty tin can and paste that on the tin can and tip the tin can so that the lens looking at it would pickup the curve. we would tilt the can to such a degree that the lens in its position would pickup this curve of the label, and, of course, we would make an exposure, so anything goes in camera modification. you start with the fundamentals of learning film and paper; the characteristics of them--we have many grades of paper, many contrasts of paper; we have several different varieties of film; the time developing these various papers--all of these have to be learned by an applicant before he can go on to beginning the camera, so it is a progression of a trade that takes time. mr. jenner. does this include color work? mr. graef. no; all black and white. mr. jenner. oh, all black and white? mr. graef. all black and white. we shoot color copy occasionally, but we don't do color work. mr. jenner. that is, when i say color work, i intended two things--first, color film and secondly, colored ultimate product. mr. graef. colored film, no; we do not develop colored film and we don't shoot colored film. we might, in black and white, make a two-color a set of two-color negatives or something, for example, we might shoot part of a label and furnish a negative that would print the black on something and we might furnish an additional negative that would register with the first, that would print a color. for example, a colored border around the black copy and we would furnish these two negatives to a customer and he might print it in two colors, choosing whatever colors he wanted. mr. jenner. yes; he could use whatever ink he wished to employ on the mat? mr. graef. that's correct. mr. jenner. or, do you sometimes use lead slugs? mr. graef. never. mr. jenner. of course, the customer would make a lead slug from the mat and then print it? mr. graef. yes. or, have a plate made, for example, in offset printing from our negatives--he could burn in plates and which would run two colors. he could burn his black plate and he could burn his red plate, for example. mr. jenner. well, i got you to digress a little bit from telling us your teaching of mr. oswald from his gradual development or undevelopment? mr. graef. of course, oswald was not the first one that has come into our department, because his wasn't an unusual case. he was just another employee among many whom i have trained during these years--through these years. mr. jenner. were there others you were training at this time? mr. graef. no. mr. jenner. of substantially like experience? mr. graef. no. there were others in various stages of training, but none who was starting from the very beginning, we'll say, so, of course, even though he had had--he said he had had experience in photography, we started from the very beginning because the papers that you ordinarily use in amateur photography are somewhat different from the papers that we use in our work. the film that you would use in amateur photography is different than the film that we use in our work, so we start from the beginning in every case and this was the situation with lee oswald. i began--we'll say for the first or days--he probably followed me around just to see what went on, learned how to make a print on the contact frame the way that our customers require, and became familiar with the routine of the department and little by little he was allowed to do various things to begin his training. this period is rather indistinct because all this was going on--it isn't a case of being able to devote all of one's time to a training, at the same time that he was being trained, there was other work that had to be produced, so he didn't receive--the full benefit, shall i say, of all of my time. i would say rather, he received just the time that i could allow him, which i always wanted to give him more time but never seemed to find that time, so little by little, as i say, this period is very indistinct, but little by little he learned to handle the various papers and the films and then we began teaching him how to work the modification cameras beginning with straight shooting. in other words--normal sizing of flax copy and also how to build jobs. each man is more or less an integrated supply of the work. the normal thing in our department is for a man to pick up a job or jobs, go back and shoot them, develop them, print them, dry them, bring them back up, cut them out, and bring them back up to the front of the department. mr. jenner. when you say "print them," you mean make prints from the negatives? mr. graef. make prints from the negatives on photographic paper, bring them back up to the front, reorganize them with their proper job tickets, and then take those finished jobs up to the front delivery desk. so, lee began straight shooting--normal enlargement and reduction of straight copy. mr. jenner. now, you mean by straight copy--do you distinguish that from the--from distortion photographing? mr. graef. distortion work; yes. now, the time that it took to bring him up to this point may have been or months, at any rate. it was at this time that we began, or he began to make a few mistakes on sizing. he would take a job back and it might be that his orders were to make it inches wide and when the final print came up it might be - / inches wide or - / inches wide and this would have to be done over. mr. jenner. now, as much a difference as one-eighth of an inch on sizing as against an order for, let's say, exactly inches or for one-eighth of an inch, as the case might be, would make that particular work unusable? mr. graef. correct. mr. jenner. this has to be exactitude? mr. graef. right. this didn't mean that every job was wrong, but little by little as the days passed and we got into--we'll say--into the fourth and fifth month of his employment, more and more he was being relied upon to produce this exact work and there were too many times--it was his mistakes were above normal--he was making too many mistakes. of course, we helped him as much as we could to do a better job. mr. jenner. was it your impression along about this area that the errors were ones of lack of skill, or do you have a recollection now of any attributing on your part of those errors to lack of interest, lack of industry, dissatisfaction with the position--would you give me your impression in this connection, please? mr. graef. well, my impression of his mistakes were somehow that he just couldn't manage to avoid them. it wasn't that he lacked industry or didn't try. whenever he was asked to do a job over, he would do it willingly for me, with no--he would be more perturbed at himself that he had made an error, so i think he just couldn't--he somehow couldn't manage to handle work that was that exact. it wasn't that he wasn't trying or didn't work hard to do the job, but somehow he just couldn't make it, and now, like i said, it wasn't every job that this happened, but it was too frequent to allow. there were too many times that these things had to be made over and they added to the final reason for dismissing him. mr. jenner. you carry on--i want this in your own words without prompting on my part. mr. graef. sure. now, this was approximately the fourth month that he began to be given the responsibility for making these jobs, and it began to become evident then that he was making these mistakes. we kept, of course, trying to train him--now, by this time he was working under other people, and many times he was going through the processes of doing these jobs by himself and carrying the whole job through as i have outlined previously. mr. jenner. this work didn't, i take it, require his creating any copies? mr. graef. i beg your pardon? mr. jenner. did you prepare copy--i'm talking about you personally? mr. graef. no; very, very seldom. mr. jenner. do you have a department in which advertising copy is prepared? mr. graef. if you mean by that--like pasting up advertisements? mr. jenner. no; i mean preparing them. mr. graef. actually working on layouts and ideas to be used--creative ideas and things like that? mr. jenner. yes; the body of copy. mr. graef. no; we do for our own firm create small ads and so forth. mr. jenner. what i am getting at, he never reached the point which he had to do any creating of copy in the sense that i am talking about, which would then lead you to have some experience with him as to his use of grammar? mr. graef. no. mr. jenner. or his skills along those lines? mr. graef. no; now, in the course of his carrying these jobs through and back in the darkroom, i began to hear vague rumors of friction between him and the other employees. the nature of our business is such that we are under pressure a good deal of the time to meet deadlines. mr. jenner. time pressures? mr. graef. yes; in the interest of teamwork and getting a job out, we try to tend to overlook things like that. mr. jenner. things like what? mr. graef. flareups of temper or an ugly word or something like that that someone who may be under particular pressure at the time, and someone says the wrong thing--it might set them off a little bit, so i began to hear rumors of some of these things happening with lee, but it has happened with other fellows also, but little by little, i mean other fellows who have had these flareups--i have had them myself--something will happen that will just be the straw that broke the camel's back, and you will spout off, you know, but this began happening--i began to hear rumors--i began, and of course, sometimes the boss is the last to know, and i began hearing that--or began noticing--that very few people liked him. he was very difficult to get along with. other people that worked with him, with whom i had conversations and lee's name came up or something came up about lee, they wouldn't speak kindly toward him, to say the very least, and something might have happened between them and lee that they hadn't mentioned it to anyone--some word that had been said in an unfriendly way, that they just overlooked or passed off, but it didn't leave a good impression with them from then on. lee was not one to make friends. i never had any words with him at all. he never countered any order that i gave him, he always did what i told him to do the way i told him to do it. it might have been wrong sometimes, but he never was antagonistic. mr. jenner. in other words, he might not have been able to carry out your directions, but he tried to do so? mr. graef. that's so. mr. jenner. you didn't mean your directions to him might have been wrong? mr. graef. no; he was not belligerent to me. anything that i told him to do, he did, or tried to do to the best of his ability. mr. jenner. but you began having the impression, with the increased intensity, that he was not getting along with employees at his level? mr. graef. right. i was a witness to one of these flareups which i had, up to this time, taken not lightly, but passed it off as one of those things that happen in our department quite frequently, but i was quite close to one of lee's flareups. i don't know who was responsible--whether it was lee or one of the other workers, so at the time i couldn't actually reprimand anyone, so i didn't, but tried to pacify and laugh the whole thing off and make some remark that "well, we are all under pressure. let's get down and let's get on with the job." something to that effect. then, the two people went their separate ways but it was quite a flareup, a sudden flareup of temper--a quick chip on the shoulder thing that i don't know--i have a hard time understanding people that lose their temper so quickly. mr. jenner. is that the impression you had of him? mr. graef. yes; at that time--from that time on i did have that impression. mr. jenner. now, was this more an impression you gained from several incidents rather than one isolated incident? mr. graef. no; of course, i have to take into account the evidence of all the other people--some of the things that they said and the way they didn't get along with him and then i saw the way he acted at this particular time, and i had never been particularly close enough to the boy so that i knew his personality. he was strictly a worker who was training and he did the job, or tried to do the job, and so i wasn't very close to his personality at all until this particular incident. it was only when he began--after, we'll say, he got out from under my wing as a trainer and began up to that time--he was following me around and was doing what i told him and there was very little chance for him to be alone with anyone and we didn't have any friction for about the first or months that he was employed, but he then began to be given the responsibility of doing these jobs himself. mr. jenner. himself and with others? mr. graef. and with others. mr. jenner. but not under your very immediate supervision? mr. graef. not under my immediate supervision; no. mr. jenner. did this call for him, then, to work and cooperate with others? mr. graef. right mr. jenner. and this was really the first time---- mr. graef. then, we'll say his personality began to come out. in the moving around the darkroom, the way you have to be congenial, cooperative in turning the light on and off as the various stages of the work progress, you may be developing film and someone may be coming out of one of our rooms and need the light on and there has to be a certain amount of give and take in these relationships and it began to become evident--some of the passages--passageways through our darkroom aren't particularly wide and everyone has learned to manage. you can't--you can pass one another, but not without each of you sort of squeezing by a little bit as you go, and it began to be evident that he wasn't congenial or cooperative in working with the rest of the people and moving about the darkroom and so forth. let me see, there was an incident about a russian newspaper deal--i was working at my desk one time and i looked over and it was probably a slack time in our business, and i looked over and lee was reading a newspaper, and i could see--it was from a distance of about to feet, i suppose, something like that, and it was just far enough away that i could see it was not a usual newspaper, and i asked him what he was reading, and he said, "a russian newspaper." i said, "a what?" and he said, "a russian newspaper." i said, "let's see it, and he brought it over and i said something like "what is the action on this?" and he said, "i studied russian in korea." this fit in with his previous statement when we employed him about being in korea, when he was a marine, and he said, "i like to keep up--keep in practice being able to read the russian language and study it or something to that effect, and i said, "well, lee, i wouldn't bring anything like that down here again, because some people might not take kindly to your reading anything like that." mr. jenner. did you ask him the source of this newspaper? mr. graef. no; no. mr. jenner. whether it was printed in russia or whether he had subscribed to it? mr. graef. it seems to me it was the "crocodile." now, it might not have been, but it just seems to me at the time that it was, but, of course, that too didn't seem particularly odd to me because a great many people in the country are studying that language these days and the fact that he had been a marine and been in korea, according to the report, it seemed reasonably plausible that he would have learned that language, or studied it and to me, certainly, of course, i know how people are and that there might be some--he might be making trouble for himself by causing suspicion and so forth, by having that newspaper or at least running around with it, flaunting it, we'll say. mr. jenner. when did this occur with respect to his period of employment--this incident? mr. graef. i can't really say for sure, but it must have been about the fourth or fifth month that he was there. mr. jenner. was it a factor in his ultimate discharge? mr. graef. let me say that didn't help. taken with the other--his personality, his not being able to do the job the way he should--when i say, "his personality," i mean the friction between the other employees. i didn't--it didn't actually weigh heavily, but it didn't do his case any good, let's put it that way. i didn't fire him specifically because he had the newspaper in his hand. mr. jenner. now, i put words in your mouth that he was discharged? mr. graef. yes; he was discharged. mr. jenner. did you discuss this with him? mr. graef. i did. mr. jenner. would you tell us about that, please? mr. graef. his record, as all this has brought out was--adding up to where he was not a desirable employee. his relationships with other employees had reached the point where no one that i know of was really friendly or liked him. his work as we progressed into the more intricate details of our production, didn't improve and it began to be evident after all the training that we had given up to this point that now that he was in a position where he should be able to produce jobs, actually he was not able to do so, and after a reasonable---- mr. jenner. was there ever any thought in your mind as to his ability ultimately to be able to do so? mr. graef. yes; i reached the opinion that he would not have--he would never be the kind of an employee that i was looking for, giving him every chance, you can make a mistake on one job or two jobs, and you always feel like you must--"let's try it one more time," and this was my thought, because after all, there had been several months passed where we had brought him up to this point and i feel we gave him every chance or tried to give him every chance to make a success, and still he was falling down and making these mistakes--sizing errors--and camerawork. when he had to make these things over, he would be mad at himself. he would go back and shoot it again, but it is obvious that he was taking twice as long when these things happened to produce one job because he was having to do the whole thing over again to get it right, that it couldn't be tolerated for much longer. about this time, i think it was in april, we had a fluctuation in business--it dropped and i thought, "well, this is the time to let lee harvey oswald--to let him go," so i called him back into the darkroom one day and i said, "lee, business is"---- mr. jenner. when you say this conversation took place in the darkroom, was the room dark? mr. graef. there were dim red lights. mr. jenner. why did you call him back in the darkroom rather than some other place? mr. graef. at the time it was the--i didn't want to embarrass the boy. mr. jenner. this was a private talk? mr. graef. yes. mr. jenner. out of the presence of anyone other than yourself and oswald? mr. graef. out of the presence of anyone else--yes. mr. jenner. and that was one of the reasons for your calling him back there? mr. graef. yes. i don't have a private office. my desk is with the other people in the production of work, and i don't have any private facilities where i can talk to someone, and back in the corner of the darkroom, it is illuminated by red lights. mr. jenner. are these infrared lights? is that what you mean? mr. graef. no; they are just red neon lights that provide dim illumination, but at this particular spot in the darkroom, i can see when anyone is within or feet of me, and, of course, i could lower my voice and not embarrass him when i released him, so i said, "lee, come on back, i would like to talk to you." so, we went back, and i said, "lee, i think this is as good a time as any to cut it short." i said, "business is pretty slow at this time, but the point is that you haven't been turning the work out like you should. there has been friction with other people," and so on. mr. jenner. what did he say when you said that? mr. graef. nothing. and i said, "this is, i think, the best time to just make a break of it." i believe i gave him a few days, and i said, "feel free, of course, to make any calls of the texas employment commission where you came from originally," and i told him, "i think you tried to do the work, but i just don't think that you have the qualities for doing the work that we need." and, there was no outburst on his part. he took this the whole time looking at the floor, i believe, and after i was through, he said, "well, thank you." and he turned around and walked off. mr. jenner. have you had occasion in your career to discharge other employees? mr. graef. yes. mr. jenner. and recalling the reaction of other employees, could you tell us your present view or opinion as to your experience--comparing your experience with the discharge of lee harvey oswald with the discharge of other employees--was it usual and normal? mr. graef. yes; i think it was just about the usual. he might have been perhaps a shade more quiet. there were no questions asked about why i thought he wasn't qualified. mr. jenner. do you think he was aware of it? mr. graef. i think he was aware of it; yes. mr. jenner. no outbursts of any kind? mr. graef. no. mr. jenner. anything said about what might happen if he sought references in any future employment? mr. graef. yes; i told him--i volunteered the information. i said, "lee, if there is another job that you find, i'll be glad to give you a recommendation, a good recommendation," because--i told him, "i think you have tried," and i think he had. it would have been, of course, with reservations--any new employer that had called me for a recommendation, i would have had to say something about his relations with other employees. mr. jenner. and that would have been somewhat negative? mr. graef. that's correct; but he did try to become a worker. it wasn't that he wasn't industrious--he was not lazy. he, to the best of his ability, tried but the ability was not there. mr. jenner. now, i take it then from your recital that his discharge was for the reasons you have given and not because of any past history that you discovered with respect to him? mr. graef. no. mr. jenner. and, throughout all of this employment, you had no information with regard to his past history other than you have related to us? mr. graef. no. mr. jenner. does jaggars-chiles-stovall do any highly secret work of any character or highly confidential work? mr. graef. yes, yes; we do some work for, i think, the army map service. we do a certain type of work for the engineers, i believe, but i couldn't be sure about that. mr. jenner. is that in your department or under your supervision or direction? mr. graef. no. mr. jenner. would he have had any contact with that? mr. graef. no. mr. jenner. did there come to your attention any scuttlebutt among employees as to any past history of his? mr. graef. no; i think if it had, i would have in fact--i am very positive i would have investigated that. mr. jenner. did any of the reports to you, which you have detailed to me, include anything with regard to any political theories or arguments or positions that he took as with respect to other employees? mr. graef. no; none. none that came to my attention. there was never any political conversations that i heard about him or between him, or that i heard him talking with the people or anything like that. mr. jenner. i think i have no more questions. i would like to put, however, the general question that i do put in all these depositions. is there anything that might occur to you that i have not stimulated to ask you but that you think--any incident that occurred or any circumstance that you think might possibly be of help to the commission in their investigation of this man and of the overall incident we are investigating? mr. graef. no; i really don't think so. of course, the whole thing is just a tragic, unbelievable thing. mr. jenner. yes. mr. graef. that you rub shoulders with someone who did such a thing is just fantastic. mr. jenner. if he did it? mr. graef. it's just unbelievable--it's still hard to believe that you were in such close contact with anyone that took part in the events. mr. jenner. now, is there anything in my off-the-record discussion we have had, and there have been substantially none, that took place during that interlude that i have failed to bring out? mr. graef. i might add this--i'll let you repeat that question in a moment. mr. jenner. all right. mr. graef. this thought occurred--i was trying to think a moment ago what i was going to do, because there was something that i wanted to make mention of for what it's worth, is that at this point during his employment with us, he was very anxious for overtime work. mr. jenner. is this the - or -month period you are talking about now? mr. graef. yes; that's correct, which if i may assume, he needed the money. it was invariably friday afternoon--and saturday, of course, is an overtime day to us and quite frequently we run saturday and saturday work we do at time and a half, which comes into play, and in fact, invariably friday afternoon he would volunteer and ask if we needed him the next day. then, unfortunately, of course, as i have mentioned, his work didn't come up to the quality that we needed so it was very, very seldom that we ever brought him in unless we were in a real bad--had an urgent work that absolutely had to go, but he desperately wanted to be called in on saturday for overtime work. mr. jenner. did any of his work, or was there any occasion when his ability to operate an automobile arose? mr. graef. no; as far as i know, he never had one. mr. jenner. and there was no occasion in his work when he might have been called upon to drive an automobile? mr. graef. no. mr. jenner. so, you have no impression--i gather--as to whether he could or could not drive an automobile or how well he might do so? mr. graef. no. the only impression that i have is that he rode the bus almost everywhere. i know--i'm pretty sure he did not have a car and he used to ride the bus. mr. jenner. i show you commission exhibits , , , , and , and ask you to examine those and tell me if the man who is depicted in those photographs bears any similarity or likeness to the man you knew as lee harvey oswald? you might spread them out and it would give you a better view. mr. graef. very slight; but to anyone who knew lee, they would immediately say "no." mr. jenner. did you ever see him attired in the fashion that the man shown on those photographs is attired? mr. graef. no; i don't think i ever did. now, toward the end of his employment, most of the time he used to wear a white t-shirt to work. i think he might have had a dark jacket over it. mr. jenner. a zipper jacket--lightweight? mr. graef. something perhaps--but it was rather dark, i think, but not like this. mr. jenner. is there in any discussion we have had possibly off the record which you regard as inconsistent with any testimony you have given here, and if so, what? mr. graef. like what, for example? now, when you say "inconsistent with any testimony," what do you mean? mr. jenner. well, for example, that you might have said off the record that you were uncertain as to whether--when you first interviewed him he was, in fact, with a suit coat with a shirt and tie, whereas, when i asked you on the record you were pretty firm about that sort of thing? mr. graef. yes; i am pretty firm. no, no; all of this testimony that i have given you is factual and true. mr. jenner. there is nothing you have said on the record that is inconsistent with anything you have said off the record? mr. graef. no--it hasn't been--anything that i have said has been an opinion or formulations--it has just been--it is just strictly as i remember it. mr. jenner. and to your best recollection, i have brought everything that was said off the record that is pertinent here and have got it on the record. mr. graef. yes; i believe so. mr. jenner. mr. davis, do you have any questions? mr. davis. no. mr. jenner. thank you very much, sir. mr. graef. well, you are certainly welcome. mr. jenner. you have a right to read your deposition, if you wish to, or you may waive it. you have that right, and you may waive it if you wish. the reporter will let you know one way or the other. mr. graef. what is the machinations of getting a copy? mr. jenner. when miss oliver has prepared a copy, you may call in and find out from mr. sanders and come down and read it, as you see fit and sign it. mr. graef. yes. mr. jenner. or, you may waive that. if you wish a copy of your testimony, you may obtain by arrangement with miss oliver. she will furnish you one at whatever her usual prices are. mr. graef. i think--i don't see any need for it--for signing it. there it is. mr. jenner. mr. graef, as these reports reached you from your employees, arousing your attention to the fact that some friction had arisen and was continuing as between him and other employees, what, if anything, did you do to acquaint yourself better with those circumstances and in that connection, tell us whether you talked with others, whether you talked with lee--in general, just what did you do in that connection? mr. graef. the rumors of these flareups, we'll say, i heard about them going back--we'll say, to some months. he was employed with us for a total of months. for about the first months he was in training and it was only after this months' period that he began to be in a close association with the other employees, so about this time, we'll say, the friction began between him and the other employees. now, several weeks went past--i'm sure--when these things came to pass and when i heard about them, and this flareup that i witnessed, and i don't know who was to blame, whether it was lee or whether it was the other fellow. i happened to be on the other side of the darkroom at the time and the two people were both, as i recall, trying to develop film in the same pan, and one was getting in the way of the other one, and ordinarily there is no--we don't have any trouble about this. all the jobs are rush, and you just make allowances and move over a little bit and both of you get in there together. this, i think, is what caused this particular thing, but lee was quick to--he had a chip on his shoulder, and he made--who spoke first, i really don't recall, but somebody said something about, "how about moving over a little bit?" and the other fellow said, "what do you mean, i have been here first," and one thing led to another, but it was over just about as quickly as it began, so this was the first time that this became evident, but as i said, couldn't actually lay it as it being lee's fault. now, these rumors come to me quite frequently. in the whole department we may have or people. mr. jenner. how many people work under you? mr. graef. directly under me, the day shift is seven or eight, and we have a few on the night shift also. we work quite close to this other department--which does photographic work also, and we have a sink on our side for camera work and then there is a developing sink back to back, at which this other department develops their work. mr. jenner. what do they do? mr. graef. setting type photographically. so, out of these many people, some of them are more prone to carry tales and others, of course, and you have to weigh the evidence, we'll say, and some of the people that had come to me during this time and just mentioned, or we'll say, scuttlebutt that went around about lee being hard to get along with, where, in fact, some of the people are hard to get along with themselves, so you just had to more or less try to get along with everyone. we all have to do that and it wasn't until this scene happened that i saw how lee's temper worked, but the--the overwhelming mass of evidence--everyone it seemed no one liked him. mr. jenner. he had no friends? mr. graef. no friends. mr. jenner. and he didn't appear to you to seek to cultivate any? mr. graef. by this time, you see, this months had elapsed and at this time work was suffering and he at this time--it was definite that he had no friends. everyone couldn't be wrong, and so all of this evidence weighed against the decision to keep him on as an employee. mr. jenner. it culminated in his discharge. mr. graef. in his dismissal? mr. jenner. all right, i guess that's about it. thank you. mr. graef. well, i hope i have been of whatever help i have been. mr. jenner. i am sorry to inconvenience you in this matter. mr. graef. if i can be of further assistance, please call me and i will be glad to do what i can. mr. jenner. all right, thank you very much. testimony of dennis hyman ofstein the testimony of dennis hyman ofstein was taken at p.m., on march , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. albert e. jenner, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. robert t. davis, assistant attorney general of texas, was present. mr. jenner. i am albert e. jenner, jr., counsel for the commission, and this is miss oliver. would you rise and be sworn? do you promise on this deposition which i am about to take of you to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. miss oliver, this is dennis hyman ofstein [spelling] d-e-n-n-i-s h-y-m-a-n o-f-s-t-e-i-n. is that correct? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and mr. ofstein, you received, did you, a letter from mr. rankin? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. general counsel for the commission, with which were enclosed three documents, a copy of executive order creating the commission to investigate the assassination of president kennedy. mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. that is an order of the president of the united states, lyndon b. johnson. there is a copy of senate joint resolution , authorizing the creation of the commission and a copy of the rules of procedure of the commission which we adopt. mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and you appear voluntarily? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. the commission, as you have learned, from those documents, is investigating all of the facts and circumstances surrounding the assassination of president kennedy, and to give particular attention to lee harvey oswald and anybody who had any contact with him during his lifetime. it is our information that you had some contact with him, or with people who had contact with him. the commission is interested in that contact, and i would like to ask you questions about it, if i may. mr. ofstein. very well, sir. mr. jenner. first, tell me a little bit about yourself. are you a former serviceman? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and what branch of service did you serve? mr. ofstein. i was in the army, sir. mr. jenner. and when did you go in and when were you discharged? mr. ofstein. i went in in august, i believe, in , and i was discharged november . mr. jenner. that was an honorable discharge, i assume? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and do you reside in dallas or fort worth? mr. ofstein. i reside in dallas at the present time. mr. jenner. are you a native of dallas? mr. ofstein. no, sir. mr. jenner. what is your home town? mr. ofstein. i reside in dallas at the present time; i was born in st. louis and i have lived in florida for the most part of my life. mr. jenner. and are you a married man? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. how long have you lived in dallas? mr. ofstein. approximately years. mr. jenner. that would take us back into --in any event? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and what has been the nature of your business, occupation, employment, profession or vocation? mr. ofstein. for the past years i have been with jaggars-chiles-stovall as a cameraman. mr. jenner. as a cameraman? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. what was your work immediately prior to that, by whom were you employed? mr. ofstein. i was working for sinclair refining co. at a local service station. mr. jenner. here in dallas? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. did you become acquainted with lee harvey oswald at any time during his lifetime? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. here in dallas? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. start at the very beginning, and in your own words tell the circumstances under which that acquaintance arose. mr. ofstein. well; it was when he became employed by jaggars-chiles-stovall as a cameraman trainee and he was in the same department i was and due to the fact that i had worked there and knew a little bit about the job, i was--as well as everyone else down there--expected to help him and more or less--not supervise, but kind of keep my eye on him and help him along. mr. jenner. what is your age, by the way? mr. ofstein. i am . mr. jenner. you were born in ? mr. ofstein. , sir. mr. jenner. , and mr. oswald's birth date was october , , you--so you were the same age? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. you were already employed by jaggars-chiles-stovall when lee oswald came there, were you? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. give me your best recollection as to when that was? mr. ofstein. it seems like it was october or november . mr. jenner. i have his employment card here--october , --does that sort of square with your recollection? mr. ofstein. yes, sir; roughly. mr. jenner. had you had any prior experience as a cameraman when you became employed by jaggars-chiles-stovall? mr. ofstein. no, sir. mr. jenner. you are still employed by them? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. you were initially a trainee as well as oswald? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and how did you become employed there? mr. ofstein. i was laid off by sinclair refining co. and i registered with the texas employment commission. mr. jenner. did anybody in particular handle that over there at the commission? mr. ofstein. i don't recall who the person was at the time. mr. jenner. a lady or a gentleman? mr. ofstein. i'm fairly certain it was a young lady and they sent me to jaggars-chiles-stovall. mr. jenner. does the name latham--louise latham trigger any recollection? mr. ofstein. the name is familiar--whether she was there or not--i don't know. mr. jenner. is that name familiar in connection with the texas employment commission? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. all right. i interrupted you--go ahead. mr. ofstein. i was sent there---- mr. jenner. and with whom did you talk when you came there? mr. ofstein. i was there early for the appointment and i talked to leonard calverly, who was the daytime foreman in the camera department, and he showed me around the place, and he talked to me and told me the final decision would be up to mr. graef. mr. jenner. that's g-r-a-e-f [spelling]? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. he is head of what? mr. ofstein. he is a supervisor in charge of the camera department, and i talked with him at approximately o'clock and he seemed satisfied--he would give me a try as a trainee, and wanted to know when i could come to work, and i told him that morning and i went to work immediately. mr. jenner. had you had any experience in the use of cameras? mr. ofstein. not in the same type of camera--no, sir. mr. jenner. what experience had you had in camera work? mr. ofstein. it had been strictly pleasure photography with smaller cameras. mr. jenner. had you done any developing work? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. you had had some darkroom experience? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. very much? mr. ofstein. not a whole lot--no, sir. mr. jenner. did either of these gentlemen inquire of you as to your experience in that direction? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. both of them? mr. ofstein. i don't recall--i know that mr. graef did. mr. jenner. what kind of photography work does jaggars-chiles-stovall do? mr. ofstein. it's strictly commercial--advertising type of photography. we make posters and poster effects and different types of effects for different advertising media--newspaper, magazines, and so forth--billboards. mr. jenner. what kind of cameras are employed? mr. ofstein. i'm not sure of the brand names we have. mr. jenner. i'm thinking more of the size, weight, whether they are portable or aren't portable, or whether they are fixed or aren't fixed. mr. ofstein. they are fixed, they move on a track to determine the size of the copy that is photographed, and they have fixed mounted lenses in the walls. mr. jenner. and you move from one lens to another, is that the way? mr. ofstein. no, sir; you mount the copy to be photographed on the board and you move that board, and the board that you put your film on--to get it different sizes. mr. jenner. what is the character of the training? mr. ofstein. mainly they start you out with doing small jobs--just normal--what we call straight shots. it amounts to getting a size and photographing it and developing it, opaquing the negatives, and making nice clean prints, and then as you progress you do more difficult type work. mr. jenner. do you know what lithography is, lithographing? mr. ofstein. no, sir; i have heard the term--that's all. mr. jenner. making metal plates? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. or reproductions? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. is there any lithographic work done by that company? mr. ofstein. i'm not certain--i don't believe so. mr. jenner. do they do any printing themselves? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. what is the nature of that kind of work? mr. ofstein. they have the photosetter machine which does the printing on film usually for a transfer to some other surface. they have hot metal, they have linotype and monotype, and, of course, they have reprint presses. mr. jenner. and you were trained to do what? mr. ofstein. strictly camera work. mr. jenner. did your work extend beyond the taking of the photographic imprint on a film? mr. ofstein. yes, sir; we were taught also to set filmotype, which is a process of writing out on a sheet of paper from a film negative that's already been put into a roll and making words and sentences and so on and photographing that, also, distortion of negatives and different types of copy. mr. jenner. what do you do to the distortion work? mr. ofstein. well, they have different processes--they have what they call perspective, which entails turning the copy board and the film mounting board at different angles from each other to make one end look smaller going off at a distance, and they have what is known as stretches and squats, which entails putting mirrors before the copy board to make a character or letter taller or smaller and doing circles. mr. jenner. they would have a magnifying or contracting mirror? mr. ofstein. yes, sir; and circles which is done with a circle device using a film positive to curve a straight line around and, of course, they have their different reproduction effects, such as the screens and the halftones. mr. jenner. do you know whether this company has done any confidential or secret work for any agency of the united states? mr. ofstein. i don't know the nature of the classification. i do know that they do work for the u.s. government. mr. jenner. have you ever participated in any of that work? mr. ofstein. only during strike--approximately weeks. mr. jenner. do you know whether lee oswald did? mr. ofstein. no, sir--i'm sure he didn't. mr. jenner. is that work confined to those in the plant who are particularly skilled or trained to do that particular kind of work? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. had lee oswald at the time his employment there was terminated reached that degree of skill? mr. ofstein. no, sir; that is handled by a different department altogether. mr. jenner. and how long had you been employed there when lee harvey came with the company? mr. ofstein. i was hired in march, years ago, --i would say approximately months. mr. jenner. do you recall when he came--about approximately when? mr. ofstein. october . mr. jenner. you became acquainted with him when he became employed? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. did you have any social contact with him during all the period of his employment? mr. ofstein. no, sir. mr. jenner. were you in contact with him because of the employment you had and the work you were doing and the work he was doing? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. did you ever become sufficiently acquainted with him that you either sought to visit him or invite him to visit you, or did an occasion arise ultimately in which you thought your acquaintance was sufficient or your interest in him or his wife or both of them was sufficient that you sought to have some social contact? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. when was that? mr. ofstein. on the day that his employment terminated, i told him that i hoped he found another job and we would have to get together sometime, being he was married and i was, and i believe it was approximately a week later when i wrote a letter to him inviting him and his wife to come and visit us some saturday evening and have social activities. mr. jenner. was there any response to that letter? mr. ofstein. no, sir; none whatsoever. mr. jenner. from the day his employment terminated to the present, have you seen him in person? mr. ofstein. no, sir. mr. jenner. from that day until the present, had you had any contact at all with him? mr. ofstein. no, sir; only my attempt at inviting him and his wife to the house. mr. jenner. other than that circumstance? mr. ofstein. no, sir. mr. jenner. how did you know where to write him? mr. ofstein. he gave me his address--post office box. mr. jenner. do you recall the number? mr. ofstein. i have it with me. mr. jenner. you made a note of it, i take it? mr. ofstein. yes; i wrote it down. mr. jenner. and you still have it? mr. ofstein. i believe so--yes, sir; post office box , dallas, tex. mr. jenner. did he give you a telephone number? mr. ofstein. no, sir. mr. jenner. what, if anything, do you know about oswald's ability to operate a motor vehicle? mr. ofstein. none whatsoever. mr. jenner. did your acquaintance reach the point at which he talked with you some of his past history? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. let's start back to the time he became employed in october , and you start in your own words and tell us your acquaintance with him, how that acquaintance ripened, if it did ripen, the nature of your work with him at the jaggars-chiles-stovall plant. mr. ofstein. well, after he became employed, we worked more or less side by side while he was training and everything, and the contact i had with him--it was necessary to teach him how to operate the cameras and how to opaque negatives and make clean prints and just the general work around there. mr. jenner. now, sticking right at that point--what was his skill and acquaintance in that connection when he first started? mr. ofstein. well, he seemed to take a great interest in it as far as skill went--it was, i would say, at the beginning approximately the same as anyone else's would have been. mr. jenner. little or none? mr. ofstein. little or none; yes, sir. mr. jenner. all right, proceed. mr. ofstein. he did improve somewhat, as far as i could see, but never turned out extreme quality work such as is required to leave the plant, and, of course, that is what caused the termination of his employment. it must have been about january of , that--of course--at the time, he was having trouble getting along with people. he wasn't the outgoing type who tried to make friends. you had to more or less stick with him and be with him constantly to even talk to him freely. he would shove his way in places, he wouldn't wait his turn at certain machines, and the reason i got along with him as well as i did, possibly, is because i am outgoing and i try to get along with everybody, and i believe that their own disposition is theirs. if i don't like it, i don't exactly have to put up with it, but i feel that there are people who don't like me for things i do, so i overlooked most of his bad traits and things that most of the other fellows got upset about and mad about. and, we talked occasionally and he wanted to know at one point if it was possible to make an enlargement of a normal negative there such as is taken in a small camera and i told him, "yes," and showed him how to do it, and he had one picture that he wanted to enlarge. it showed a river of some sort, with a fairly nice looking building in the background, and i asked him if that was in japan because he had been stationed in japan. mr. jenner. he told you he had? mr. ofstein. yes, sir; and he said, "no, it wasn't in japan," but he wouldn't elaborate on it, and i found out later that it was in minsk. mr. jenner. how much later did you find that out? mr. ofstein. possibly the latter part of february, or the middle part of february . mr. jenner. how did you find that out? mr. ofstein. he came down with some russian literature one day. mr. jenner. russian literature--what was the form of this literature? mr. ofstein. it was a newspaper, i believe, at the time. mr. jenner. english or russian? mr. ofstein. russian. mr. jenner. printed in russian hieroglyphics? mr. ofstein. yes, sir; yes. mr. jenner. in other words, it was a russian language publication? mr. ofstein. yes, sir; published in the soviet union. mr. jenner. did he show it to you? mr. ofstein. he didn't exactly show it to me, but it was in plain view. mr. jenner. did you look at it? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. do you remember anything about it that would tend to identify it? mr. ofstein. not extremely clearly--it was possibly a copy of the soviet white russian, i believe is what the title of it is, but i noticed that there--we had a conversation about the paper. mr. jenner. was anybody present in addition to yourself and oswald? mr. ofstein. i don't believe so; no, sir. mr. jenner. what was the substance of the conversation, first? mr. ofstein. well, he saw me looking at the paper and he wanted to know if i understood anything that was written there, as i had written down a couple of characters and i told him i read a little and understood a little, and therefore i asked him if he could read the paper, and he said, "yes," he understood russian very well, and that was possibly the thing that brought our friendship or acquaintanceship closer to being a friendship than anyone else's down there. mr. jenner. you discovered a common interest other than your work? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. where had you learned to decipher russian characters? mr. ofstein. i learned this while i was in the service. mr. jenner. where were you stationed? mr. ofstein. i was stationed in germany for the active part of my tour. i was stationed in california for my training and at the various and sundry other little towns for basic training and temporary status. mr. jenner. did you take any work in the language school out in california at monterey? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. what language did you study there? mr. ofstein. russian. mr. jenner. tell me how that came about? mr. ofstein. well, when i went in the service i was interested in radio--i was a disc jockey at the time, and the closest thing my recruiting sergeant said that i could get to radio would be possibly with the army security agency, so i signed up, and after basic training i went to fort devens, mass., and was held there on a temporary status while the agency determined what type training i should have, and i was given a language ability test and passed that and had a choice of three languages to take, and russian was my first choice and i was sent to monterey to study. mr. jenner. and how long were you at monterey? mr. ofstein. one year. mr. jenner. and was that entire year spent in the study of the russian language? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and i assume, with an entire year's study at that special school of monterey, you acquired a facility with the language, did you? mr. ofstein. not as well as i should have; no, sir. mr. jenner. and why was that? mr. ofstein. well, i was a little on the young side then and i was interested in other things and the freedom to leave the post and go to town and the availability of recreation there deterred my studies. mr. jenner. i see. you acquired some facility in reading russian? mr. ofstein. yes. mr. jenner. and some facility in speaking russian? mr. ofstein. yes. mr. jenner. was this conversational russian? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. what about writing russian? mr. ofstein. yes, sir; all that was covered. mr. jenner. and at the end of the year what happened? mr. ofstein. i was sent to an oversea duty station in germany and completed my tour there. mr. jenner. did you pursue your study of the russian language at anytime from the time you left monterey until the present? mr. ofstein. only in little--what you might say, self study in spurts. mr. jenner. all right. i interrupted you--you told him you could handle a few characters? mr. ofstein. yes. mr. jenner. did you then tell him about your study of the russian language when you were in the army? mr. ofstein. no, sir; he asked me where i had learned it and i told him i had picked it up during the time i was in the service, as well as the german language, which i picked up while i was stationed in germany, and i asked him where he had learned to read russian and he wouldn't elaborate on it at first, and after a period of time--i don't know how long--he did admit to me that he had been in the soviet union and my assumption was possibly that he had worked as an agent of the united states at the first. mr. jenner. what did he tell you, if he ever did, as to where he acquired his knowledge of and facility with the russian language? mr. ofstein. he never did elaborate on whether he learned it in the soviet union or before or just how he had picked it up. mr. jenner. he was uncommunicative on that subject? mr. ofstein. more or less; yes, sir. mr. jenner. but you did ask him directly? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and he did not respond? mr. ofstein. no, sir. mr. jenner. did you attempt to converse with him in russian or he with you? mr. ofstein. we said a few words in russian to each other--i would more or less ask him or tell him, "good morning" and ask him how he was feeling or some other things like that, and he would respond and usually make a criticism on my ability to speak the language. mr. jenner. he would make criticism--was that a friendly criticism on his part? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. it wasn't ridicule? mr. ofstein. no, sir. mr. jenner. all right; go ahead. mr. ofstein. and he seemed very happy of the fact that i was able to speak a little russian, and he seemed to enjoy that more than any of the other things down there. mr. jenner. with regard to your facility with the language, did you have a greater facility to understand it when spoken by someone else than you did with reading it or speaking it yourself? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and did he speak to you in russian from time to time? mr. ofstein. from time to time--very seldom. mr. jenner. you say he asked you to help him make an enlargement of a print or of a film? mr. ofstein. it was a print and he wanted a negative on it, so i got him a continuous tone negative, which is the type required for reproduction. mr. jenner. could you tell us what you mean by that--somebody has a positive print? mr. ofstein. yes. mr. jenner. and that's what he had? mr. ofstein. right. mr. jenner. and it showed a river and a nice building in the background? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and he wanted it enlarged? mr. ofstein. yes. mr. jenner. what did you do? mr. ofstein. i shot a negative of it from a masking film, which is the type film required to reproduce a photograph such as is used by most people of children or their houses or their cars, and showed him how to put it in the enlarger and blow it up and the type of paper to use, the different contrasts of paper, and he made the enlargement of the print. it was a pretty rough print--it had been torn at one time. mr. jenner. you mean his print had been torn? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. was it a photograph or a postcard, or was it something that you were under the impression he had taken? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. himself? mr. ofstein. right. mr. jenner. with a camera--what i would call a brownie camera? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. that sort of thing? mr. ofstein. right. mr. jenner. all right; go ahead. mr. ofstein. after i showed him how to do that, he experimented with it a little bit and got what he thought was possibly the best reproduction he could have gotten of it, and several times thereafter he made enlargements of pictures that he had while he was in the service, pictures that he said were taken in japan, showing snow on the ground in bivouac areas and so on with himself in several of them. mr. jenner. were there any more pictures of russia, taken in russia? mr. ofstein. not that i noticed. if he had any, he didn't show them. mr. jenner. but he did not have the facility himself to make these enlargements, you had to show him how to do it? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. about what period of time was this with respect to when he started working and when his employment was terminated? mr. ofstein. i would just make a guess that it was about month after he started, because he seemed interested in whether the company would allow him to reproduce his own pictures, and i told him that while they didn't sanction that sort of thing, that people do it now and then. they do it occasionally and end up reproducing a couple of pictures that wasn't anything out of the way. mr. jenner. he did reach a point where he told you something of his background? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. his past history? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. tell us about that. mr. ofstein. well, he said that he was in the marine corps and that after he disclosed that he had been in the soviet union, he told me that that had been after his tour of service with the marines, and again he wouldn't elaborate on how he was there or why he was there, and as i say, at that time i presumed he was possibly with the u.s. government or on a scholarship basis or some other basis and just didn't want to talk about it, so i didn't pursue it any further, and i discarded this idea after i learned that he had a russian wife. mr. jenner. when did that develop? mr. ofstein. that must have been about the middle or the latter part of february of . mr. jenner. how did you learn that? mr. ofstein. he brought it up one day when we were speaking of the russian language and i was talking to him about it--or we were talking together, i should say, about the soviet union, and he was telling me various things about their way of life over there and he mentioned that he had married a russian girl, a white russian. mr. jenner. can you tell us now what he said about what his life over there and his reactions to it--what did he say in that whole area in substance? mr. ofstein. well, the main thing--he dwelled on their difference of life--mainly to do with their food and the habits of the people and the military installations and the disbursement of the military units. he mentioned that they used caviar over there on bread the way we use butter, because of the lack of butter and dairy products, and how you would find things like loaves of bread on the tables in the cafes and restaurants the way we would find salt and pepper over here. he also mentioned about the russian guards. at this time he disclosed that the building in the photograph was some military headquarters and that the guards stationed there were armed with weapons and ammunition and had orders to shoot any trespassers or anyone trying to enter the building without permission. he also mentioned about the disbursement of the military units, saying that they didn't intermingle their armored divisions and infantry divisions and various units the way we do in the united states, that they would have all of their aircraft in one geographical location and their tanks in another geographical location, and their infantry in another, and he mentioned that in minsk he never saw a vapor trail, indicating the lack of aircraft in the area. he also said about the russian people that they were sentimental or serious people and somewhat simple, that---- mr. jenner. excuse me; i just wondered if you misspoke--you said they were sentimental and serious, did you intend both of those words? mr. ofstein. well, i was more or less searching for the right words. i remember he said they were simple and more or less serious minded. they were more mindful of world events than he thought the american people were, but that they didn't have the war hysteria, as he called it, that the people in the united states did. he said whenever you saw any indication in the russian newspapers of war, that the soviet people thought it was relatively close because of the lack of publication about it, such as at the lebanon crisis and he mentioned that he had been in moscow, i believe, and a couple of other cities other than minsk. mr. jenner. did he name any others besides moscow and minsk, did he name any others? mr. ofstein. he possibly did, but i don't recall what they would have been. mr. jenner. is it your recollection that he did mention some others, though you cannot recall the names; or, are you uncertain that he did mention any others at all that he had been in? mr. ofstein. i'm not extremely certain at all; it's possible that he did. mr. jenner. all right; when you were speaking freely without any prompting on my part, you mentioned minsk and moscow and others--now that i have pressed you a little, what is your present recollection on that score now? mr. ofstein. that he had mentioned them, but exactly what they were, whether they were large towns or whether they were small towns--i don't recall--whether he just visited them or had some purpose in being there, he never did mention that at all. he mentioned that he was in moscow for the may day parade at one time and that the soviets made a big show of power of their latest tanks and planes and so forth, and i asked him at one time about his freedom of movement, and he said that he had complete freedom of movement over there, that the mvd, i believe it was, had inquired of his neighbors about him and had talked to him on one occasion or two, but that they didn't put any holds on him or restrict him from any areas or anything like that, and i believe it was about this time that he mentioned he had married the white russian girl. mr. jenner. did he say anything about where the russian girl he married was? mr. ofstein. no, sir. mr. jenner. what was your impression as to where she was? mr. ofstein. my impression was that he was living with her--that he had her here in the united states. mr. jenner. but he didn't say anything that would lead you now to think or recall the statement on his part that she was with him in the united states, or is that an assumption on your part? mr. ofstein. yes; he did mention it. he mentioned that he had gotten several books from the library at times to take home for him and his wife to read. mr. jenner. in his discussions of life in russia, to the extent you can relate them, did he ever voice any political doctrine or theory? mr. ofstein. no, sir. mr. jenner. did you get any impression as to how he regarded his life in russia? mr. ofstein. only that he didn't think it was the type of life that he wanted to lead. mr. jenner. did he expand on that to any extent? mr. ofstein. well, he said that the people there were poor, they worked and made just about enough to buy their clothes and their food; that the only ones who had enough money to buy anything else, any of the luxuries in life, were those who were communist party officials or high ranking members in the party, and i asked him at one time if he were a communist and he said, "no." mr. jenner. did he voice any criticism of the communist party members--did he make any negative remarks? mr. ofstein. no; only that he didn't think that he would enjoy the communist way of life. mr. jenner. did he express any views to you with respect to his reaction to the government of the united states? mr. ofstein. no; he mentioned the last day he was with jaggars-chiles-stovall--i asked him what he was going to do, where he would go to work, and he said he didn't know. he liked the type of work at the company and that he would like to stay with this type of work and he would look around and if he didn't find anything else he could always go back to the soviet union, and sort of laughed about it. mr. jenner. do you think that comment of his with respect to returning to the soviet union was jocular? mr. ofstein. yes; it was sort of a flippant remark--"if i don't get a job here, i can go someplace else," and i mentioned at the time to him of a couple other shops around town that did that kind of work and suggested that he go see them. mr. jenner. what was his response, if any, to that? mr. ofstein. he said he might give them a try. mr. jenner. this was at the tail end of his employment with this company? mr. ofstein. yes; this was the last day. mr. jenner. how did he appear that day or react to the news which he received that his employment was being terminated? mr. ofstein. he seemed like he was calm, just like any other day except that he told me this was his last day with the company and more or less like it was just the end of the job and he was going to try to find another one. mr. jenner. did he say anything of whether he had been let out or whether he had quit? mr. ofstein. he just said he had been relieved from his duties as cameraman. mr. jenner. did he express any resentment in that connection? mr. ofstein. no, sir. mr. jenner. when he first came with the company, how did he get along with his fellow employees? mr. ofstein. not very well--just enough to talk to the people who were working alongside of him to learn what he had to do. mr. jenner. did those conditions or relations improve as the months went along? mr. ofstein. no, sir; they worsened. mr. jenner. they worsened? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. did they worsen before this russian language newspaper turned up, or did they really begin to worsen when the russian language newspaper turned up? mr. ofstein. they worsened before this. mr. jenner. you saw him every day that he worked? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and that you worked? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and you had some interest in him as a person? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. what was the reason for the difficulties he had with respect to fellow employees, and why did those relationships worsen? mr. ofstein. well, we work in a rather tight area. there is little room to move around in the darkroom, just about enough room for a man to stand by the developing trays and allow one person to squeeze behind him and get by, and he would make it a habit of just bursting through there head-on with no regard to who was in the room if anyone was there, and also we were required to get proofs of the work we had done on a bruning machine, which is somewhat like a thermofax--it works on the same principle of making a proof of it or a copy of it. mr. jenner. i tried a patent case against the bruning co., so i know what their machines are. mr. ofstein. but the other department with which we shared the bruning machine requires a little more delicate work with the machine, as their proofs are proofread. ours are just for further use in case a job comes back and we need to know what was on the job. he would burst in there and if someone else was on it, didn't make him any difference, he would go ahead and put his work through and, of course, this made people mad about it. mr. jenner. how would you describe all this, that he was inconsiderate? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and selfish and aggressive with respect to himself and impatient with the rights of others? mr. ofstein. yes; i think he thought he had the right of way in any case, either that or he was just in a hurry to get through, and through his hurrying be made no regard for anyone else's well-being or anyone else's jobs. mr. jenner. go ahead. mr. ofstein. i never heard him ask anyone to go to lunch with him, or no one, including myself, that i recall, asked him to go to lunch. i believe i might have asked him at one time and he always ate alone. mr. jenner. did he eat with you? mr. ofstein. no, sir. mr. jenner. even though you asked him? mr. ofstein. no, sir; not a bit. mr. jenner. but you did ask him? mr. ofstein. i believe i did; yes, sir. mr. jenner. and he declined? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and at least he didn't accept the invitation? mr. ofstein. right. mr. jenner. did you notice in particular, since you mentioned this without my prompting, that he did eat all by himself? mr. ofstein. i noticed that he didn't eat with anyone in the shop. mr. jenner. he was not a friendly person, then? mr. ofstein. he wasn't an outgoing person. i thought he could be friendly if, as with the russian language incident--there was something in common, something that he would take an interest in. mr. jenner. but he made no effort to develop things in common with others; is that right? mr. ofstein. no; that's right. mr. jenner. did you have any impression that he had an attitude of resentment toward anybody or anything or his lot in life? mr. ofstein. not extremely or exactly resentment. i would say he didn't get along with people and that several people had words with him at times about the way he barged around the plant, and one of the fellows back in the photosetter department almost got in a fight with him one day, and i believe it was mr. graef that stepped in and broke it up before it got started, but he was also offered rides by mr. graef, and i offered him a ride a couple of times either to his home or wherever he wanted to catch a bus, and i know that he always declined my offer of a ride. mr. jenner. what did he say? mr. ofstein. he said; no, he would go ahead and walk, and usually in the evening when he would leave he would say, "i am going up to the post office to pick up my mail," and a couple of times i would offer to give him a ride up this way, as it wasn't much out of my way and i have to come in this direction anyway to live oak before i turn, which is only about a block difference, and he always declined to ride and would walk. mr. jenner. did the subject matter of his experience with firearms ever arise? mr. ofstein. i don't believe so. mr. jenner. was there any discussion at any time in which he indicated or in which there was discussion of his ability in the use of firearms? mr. ofstein. it seems that he said while he was in the marines that he qualified as a marksman. mr. jenner. by the way, what is that rating; do you know? mr. ofstein. i'm not certain in the marines--it differs from the army, i am sure. mr. jenner. what is a marksman in the army, what level of skill is that? mr. ofstein. if i remember correctly, marksman is just barely qualifying, and "expert," of course, is the top you can go. mr. jenner. i have read about snipers--are they "experts", is that their classification? mr. ofstein. i'm not certain, but i'm sure they have to be fairly handy with a weapon. mr. jenner. your recollection is a little uncertain in this area, is it not? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. that is, with respect to what oswald might or did say to you on the subject? mr. ofstein. i know he said he qualified and i'm almost certain that he said as a marksman. mr. jenner. did your discussion go beyond that, did he elaborate on it in other words? mr. ofstein. no, sir. mr. jenner. and that's about the only instance in your recollection in which there was a discussion on the subject? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. what about his industry, his promptness, his attendance? mr. ofstein. he seemed to usually arrive on time and expressed a desire to work overtime if he was needed, except during the week at times there were periods when he said he had to go to school and he would leave with some books, i believe they were typing books from the library, and he mentioned that he was going to crozier tech at night, and i believe this was one night a week or two at the most. other than that, he was there every day, the best i recall, and he did work one saturday. mr. jenner. did he have difficulty obtaining saturday work from the company? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. why? mr. ofstein. well, they go on an experience and seniority basis as to overtime. the people with more seniority have a choice as to whether they want to work or not and usually they do. mr. jenner. to make that extra money? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and also, does skill have anything to do with it--you mentioned experience--you meant to include in that experience--his skill for the level of attainment? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and he had not reached the point at which all of these factors combined enabled him to command or be reasonably fortunate in respect to having overtime work? mr. ofstein. right. mr. jenner. had your skills reached the point at which you had overtime work on saturday when you sought it? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. what about his aptitudes with respect to the work for which he was being trained? mr. ofstein. he always strived to try to do good. it seemed like he was fast, but i noticed that quite a few of his jobs that he did perform did come back within a normal working day. mr. jenner. more than the normal? mr. ofstein. yes, sir; i would say so. mr. jenner. there are errors always made, i suppose, by everybody? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. but your impression is that his percentage of error was above average? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. was there any discussion of that in and among your fellow workers and with mr. graef? mr. ofstein. yes; it was battered around for quite awhile--exactly how long, i don't know. about the way that he was turning out a lot of work, because it had to be redone, therefore wasting company materials. mr. jenner. and time? mr. ofstein. yes, sir; and they had decided, i believe, it must have been a month before they finally let him go--to dismiss him. mr. jenner. was that the general scuttlebutt around the place? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. that he was reaching the end of his employment? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. did ever the occasion arise when you learned anything with respect to whether he was ever able to operate an automobile or ever owned one or got in one to drive it? mr. ofstein. no, sir; every time i saw him on the street coming down this way after work he was walking. mr. jenner. did he ever bring any of these books to work--books as distinguished from newspapers? mr. ofstein. i don't recall if he did or not, sir. mr. jenner. was it a russian newspaper that elicited this discussion between you as to the use of the russian language, or was it a book? mr. ofstein. it was a newspaper. mr. jenner. not a book? mr. ofstein. no, sir. mr. jenner. did you tell him where you had learned russian? mr. ofstein. no, sir; i just said while i was in the service i had picked it up. mr. jenner. did he at any time ever say or did you ever get the impression that he had studied russian while he was in the service? mr. ofstein. no, sir. mr. jenner. your impression was what in that connection? mr. ofstein. well, that he could either have learned it while in the soviet union or at a school. mr. jenner. at a private school? mr. ofstein. yes; private or public school. mr. jenner. but not while he was in the service? mr. ofstein. no, sir; he never led me to believe that. mr. jenner. the information he gave you with respect to the disposition of military units in russia--that information was of the character you have already related--that the tanks were in one area? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and the other types of equipment in another, and did he tell you where these various units were? mr. ofstein. the best i recall, he mentioned that, as i say, that he never saw a vapor trail of a plane around minsk, and he mentioned the location of the tanks, but i am not sure whether he mentioned whether it was north or south. mr. jenner. of what? mr. ofstein. in the soviet union. mr. jenner. in relating this to you, was it in terms of his having seen these units? mr. ofstein. that was the impression i got, though he never directly said so. mr. jenner. did he say anything about--after you learned that he was married to a russian woman--did he say anything to you about how he had met her and courted her or any of the circumstances with respect to his marrying her? mr. ofstein. no, sir. mr. jenner. it was just that he had married a russian citizen? mr. ofstein. right. mr. jenner. and brought her to this country? mr. ofstein. yes. mr. jenner. did he say anything about his military career? mr. ofstein. only that he had served in the marines and that he had served in japan. mr. jenner. did he say anything about his discharge from the marines? mr. ofstein. no, sir. mr. jenner. by the way when you first met this man, had you ever heard of him before or anything about him to your then recollection? mr. ofstein. no, sir. mr. jenner. what else did he say about the military dispositions? mr. ofstein. he said he felt it was a rather poor way to distribute the military because of the fact that support needed by one type of unit, such as the infantry, needs tanks--took such a long delay because they had to move it from another segment of the country and that he thought this was a rather poor situation. mr. jenner. did he say anything about the location of the--these units--were they widely disbursed, that is, let's take a tank unit--did you get the impression that the tank unit would be located far away from minsk or near minsk? mr. ofstein. i believe he said the tanks were in the north and i'm not familiar whether minsk is in the north of russia or not? mr. jenner. did you get the impression they were not in minsk, however? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. what did he say, if anything, about units that were located in and about minsk? mr. ofstein. the only thing he mentioned along that line was the military headquarters and to the best of my recollection, it was a secret police. mr. jenner. you mentioned in the--is that what you mean by the secret police, the nvd? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and, that they had a headquarters there in minsk? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. did he make any comment about the mvd? mr. ofstein. only that they had inquired about him several times and that they didn't follow him around. he said they were somewhat like our own federal bureau of investigation. mr. jenner. did he ever make any comparison that was, you thought, an attempt at being invidious with respect to the fbi as against the mvd? mr. ofstein. no, sir; he just said that their operations were somewhat similar in checking out people they wanted to check on. mr. jenner. other than that, did he ever say anything about the fbi? mr. ofstein. no, sir. mr. jenner. did he say anything about his observations that regarded, for example, an area in which he could see jet contrails, whether he would also find nearby, or even at a distance, any other military units? mr. ofstein. no, sir; he said if he saw tank treads of tanks, that he wouldn't see aircraft or infantry units nearby, and that if he saw contrails, it was the same as the infantry units, that they just wouldn't intermingle them. mr. jenner. did he say anything to you about what had led him to make these observations? mr. ofstein. well, as i said earlier that he had never seen any contrails, he said, in the minsk area and that he had been in moscow and i presumed he had seen the type units that were stationed at minsk and possibly at moscow. mr. jenner. is there any work done at jaggars-chile-stovall with the use of microdot? mr. ofstein. no, sir. mr. jenner. do you know what a microdot is? mr. ofstein. that was explained to me by lee oswald. mr. jenner. tell us about that. mr. ofstein. he asked me one day if i knew the term "microdot", and i told him, "no", i wasn't familiar with it and he told me that that was the method of taking a large area of type or a picture and reducing it down to an extremely small size for condensing and for purposes, such as where you had a lot of type to photograph to confine them into a small area, and he said that that is the way spies sometimes sent messages and pictures of diagrams and so on, was to take a microdot photograph of it and place it under a stamp and send it. i presumed that he had either read this in a book or had some knowledge of it from somewhere, but where, i didn't know. mr. jenner. when did this conversation occur with respect to the termination of his employment? mr. ofstein. this was possibly or months before. mr. jenner. so, this was after the time that the russian newspaper had shown up? mr. ofstein. i believe it was; yes, sir. mr. jenner. was it after the time you learned that he married a russian girl and brought her to this country? mr. ofstein. no, sir. mr. jenner. that occurred afterwards? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. what reaction did you have when oswald talked about--raised the subject of microdots and their use or possible use in espionage? mr. ofstein. i just thought that as far as he was concerned, it was possibly another phase of photography and that he was interested in it. it has since, come up down at the company--the use of microdots and the different techniques, but we are still not employing those techniques and i thought possibly that he might have also, as i have several times, come to read things about microfilm and, of course you see it in these science fiction movies of space travel and so--the use of microfilm, and i presumed this was along the same lines. mr. jenner. did it ever arouse in you any alarm or any doubt? mr. ofstein. no, sir; i just thought it was possibly a passing piece of conversation. mr. jenner. here again you didn't become suspicious or concerned? mr. ofstein. no, sir. mr. jenner. did you speak to anybody about that incident? mr. ofstein. no, sir. after oswald was released from employment, i did ask the recruiting sergeant for army security here in town, who i was stationed with overseas, about the possibility of getting the fbi to run a routine check on him because of the fact that i have done security work, and the fact that i also--this was just before i wrote the letter to oswald inviting him and his wife over--due to the fact that i wanted to keep my record clean. well, i didn't suspect him as being a spy or anything like that--i just wanted to make sure i was with the right company, and he told me that it was probably nothing. mr. jenner. you wanted to inquire not only with respect to him but also whether you were with the right company? mr. ofstein. well, sir, i wouldn't jeopardize losing any chance of getting a security clearance at anytime i needed it. mr. jenner. and, sergeant crozier, did you say his name was--i believe it is sergeant geiger. mr. ofstein. his first name is tom--i can't remember his last name now. mr. jenner. or, is it kriegler? mr. ofstein. kriegler--yes, sir. mr. jenner. he had been in the service with you, you had served together? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and, he reassured you? mr. ofstein. yes, sir; he said that it was probably nothing to worry about. mr. jenner. when you discussed this russian language newspaper with oswald, was there anything said as to the source of the paper? mr. ofstein. not immediately. i believe it was possibly about months before he left--i asked him where he got the paper and i said that i wanted to find a little more up-to-date material to study russian with, than what you find in the library, and that i had looked around town and on the newsstands that i saw handling them--russian language newspapers and he mentioned that he got it from a firm in new york or washington--victor a. kamkin. mr. jenner. that's k-a-m-k-i-n [spelling]? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and, he gave you the address in new york city? mr. ofstein. it was new york or washington--i don't know for certain. i made an error in my report to the fbi to that respect. mr. jenner. the fact is you were uncertain, but you indicated to the fbi more positively? mr. ofstein. yes, sir; whenever the agent came to my home and picked up the materials, the address was there and we clarified that. mr. jenner. what materials did he pick up? mr. ofstein. well, lee oswald had given me a russian newspaper, "the soviet white russian," and a couple of magazines--the one being a magazine newspaper type thing and one a magazine, and the fbi agent wanted these--one of them had his handwriting on the back. mr. jenner. and, those were turned over to the fbi? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. did the fbi approach you or did you approach the fbi? mr. ofstein. they approached me. mr. jenner. when was that? mr. ofstein. i believe it was sometime in december of last year. mr. jenner. of ? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. it was after the assassination? mr. ofstein. yes. mr. jenner. did any fbi agent to your knowledge ever speak to you about oswald anytime prior to november , ? mr. ofstein. no, sir. mr. jenner. and, other than your talk with the recruiting sergeant, sergeant kriegler, had you drawn the matter to the attention of any government agent or agency? mr. ofstein. no, sir. mr. jenner. do any of these names refresh your recollection as to the newspapers or magazines that he had--"soviet white russian"? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. do you recall that as being what? mr. ofstein. a local newspaper from the white russian portion of the soviet union? mr. jenner. and "the crocodile"? mr. ofstein. yes, sir; that was a--it would be hard to say whether that would be a newspaper or a magazine. it seemed like it was thick and stapled as a magazine, but in the form of a newspaper. mr. jenner. and, then "the agitator"? mr. ofstein. that was a magazine. mr. jenner. now, did he speak of these or did he have one or more of these off and on during his employment, or was there just one occasion that you saw them? mr. ofstein. i believe the only time he had them down there was one incident when i picked them up and the other time later on when he brought these to me with the address of victor kamkin. mr. jenner. after the specific instance about which you have testified, there was a subsequent instance in which he brought you for possible ordering purposes, some additional either periodicals or newspapers? mr. ofstein. right. mr. jenner. among which were the names of which i have related to you? mr. ofstein. right. now, he did mention that "the agitator" was a political magazine and that i probably wouldn't want to order. mr. jenner. he did say that it might well be something you wouldn't want to order? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. had you heard of "the agitator" up to this point? mr. ofstein. no, sir. mr. jenner. at no time while you were at monterey did "the agitator" come to your attention? mr. ofstein. no, sir. mr. jenner. do they use russian language newspapers and periodicals, that is, printed in russia? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. in the monterey language school? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. did he surrender these papers and these periodicals to you? mr. ofstein. yes; he gave them to me and i told him--i thanked him for them and told him i would bring them back within a couple of days and i was going to glance through them and he said that would be all right, that i could keep them. mr. jenner. that you could keep them and you didn't have to return them? mr. ofstein. right. mr. jenner. you surrendered them to the fbi, did you? mr. ofstein. yes. mr. jenner. on those--it seems to me you said earlier there was some handwriting on one or more of these newspapers or periodicals? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. whose handwriting? mr. ofstein. lee oswald's. mr. jenner. was the handwriting on those newspapers or periodicals placed on those items in your presence? mr. ofstein. i believe they were--i believe that was the address of victor kamkin on the back of one of them. mr. jenner. that is, oswald in your presence wrote the address of kamkin on some one of these documents? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. did you seek to have him help you with your russian beyond what you have now related to us? mr. ofstein. yes, sir; i asked him if he knew any other people who spoke russian, and he indicated that he did, that he knew several russian immigrants and i asked him at the time if he would be able to give me anyone's address so that i could speak with them and build up my vocabulary, and my ability to speak it, and he just kept putting me off and saying, "in time you'll meet them, in time you'll meet them" and i never did meet any of them. mr. jenner. did he give any reason for his apparent putting you off? mr. ofstein. yes, sir; he said that these people liked to speak with americans who had an interest in their language, but they wouldn't want to take just anyone who went down to the library and picked up a book and sputtered off a few words. he said they enjoyed having someone around who could more or less keep up a running conversation with them. mr. jenner. you thought he was classifying you as one who had a fairly poor command of the language? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and that he had some hesitation about throwing you in with a group that spoke fluently? mr. ofstein. yes. mr. jenner. this was not a derogatory attitude on his part? mr. ofstein. no, sir; he said with a little bit of study that i could possibly get in with the groups and speak with them. mr. jenner. and your feeling is fairly firm that his reluctance in that connection was along the lines you have indicated rather than a desire on his part to keep you from that group? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. do you feel that had you had a better command of the russian language he would have been willing to introduce you into that circle? mr. ofstein. i believe he would have; yes, sir. mr. jenner. do you know whether he had any social contact with any of the people in the plant? mr. ofstein. not to my knowledge; no, sir. mr. jenner. what is your impression as to whether he did or didn't? mr. ofstein. well, i feel that he possibly got along with me better than anyone else down there and we had no social contact. mr. jenner. he had none with you and you rationalized from that he had none with anybody else? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. that judgment was affected by the fact also that he appeared not to be getting along very well with others in the plant? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. did he say anything about being a marxist? mr. ofstein. no, sir. mr. jenner. was the subject ever mentioned? mr. ofstein. no. mr. jenner. you mentioned the secret police, did any conversation ever occur with respect to any contact of his with, or any contact by, the secret police with him? mr. ofstein. he said that they talked to him once or twice while he was there and that was all, but that mainly it was just like the fbi would be running a check on someone here--they would speak with people who knew them or who were located around them. mr. jenner. was there anything ever discussed during the period he was employed about any particular problems of his in russia, first, let me say this--any attempt on his part to defect from the united states and become a russian citizen? mr. ofstein. no, sir. mr. jenner. any illnesses on his part? mr. ofstein. no, sir. mr. jenner. any difficulties he may or did or might have encountered in connection with his return to the united states? mr. ofstein. no, sir. mr. jenner. or of his getting his wife out of russia? mr. ofstein. no, sir. mr. jenner. was the subject of his getting out of russia discussed at all? mr. ofstein. no, sir. mr. jenner. was the problem with the cuban nation or with mr. castro or any of castro's activities ever discussed? mr. ofstein. yes, sir; at one time when they were having a little difficulty down there. i don't recall just what the difficulty was at the time, but i made a rather derogatory remark about fidel castro's ancestry, and he never seemed to get upset about it. mr. jenner. you just got no response out of him at all on that? mr. ofstein. just a sort of a shrug of the shoulders. mr. jenner. i noticed there was a discussion between you or he with you, at least, about keeping to yourself the fact that he had been in russia? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. was there such an incident? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. will you tell us about it--how it arose, what the circumstances were, and what he said and what you said? mr. ofstein. i believe it was the same time that he informed me that he had been in the soviet union--he mentioned that he didn't want it to get around, at this time--this was the time i got the impression that possibly he had been an agent--what was a fleeting impression--and i remarked later that apparently he had told someone else down there because someone mentioned it to me about his having a russian wife. mr. jenner. was this before he told you he had one? mr. ofstein. no, sir; this was after--in fact, i believe it was after he had been released from employment, but at the time that he did ask me to keep the fact that he had been in russia to myself, i presumed that i was the only one that knew anything about his russian activities, that he had even been in the soviet union or had a russian wife. mr. jenner. i wonder if this would sort of refresh your recollection--victor kamkin bookstore, inc., th street nw., washington , d.c.? mr. ofstein. no, sir; that seems like it, that seems like it. mr. jenner. that sparks your recollection--with washington, d.c., as distinguished from any other city? mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. did you ever write kamkin? mr. ofstein. yes; i got several catalogues from him. mr. jenner. did you ever order any russian literature from him? mr. ofstein. no, sir. mr. jenner. is there anything that occurs to you that you think might be pertinent to the subject matter of the commission's investigation, which i haven't prompted up to the moment? mr. ofstein. as directly related to the assassination? mr. jenner. well--either way--you feel free to say. mr. ofstein. no, sir; to the best of my knowledge--no. mr. jenner. is there anything on the subject matter along the lines that i have questioned you that is in your contacts with lee oswald which have not been brought out, that you would like to tell us about, which you think might be helpful? mr. ofstein. nothing that i can recall. as i say, most of the things that he did tell me--i thought were mainly in the lines of conversation and nothing more, and that he never made any political advances one way or the other or gave his own political views. i mean, he never told me anything derogatory about the united states or about the soviet union--just that he had resided there. mr. jenner. all right, if you wish, you may read your deposition and make any corrections in it and sign it, or you are of liberty to waive that if you wish. you can do whatever you want--either way, but you have the right to read it and correct it if it needs correcting or additions and to sign it. i would like to know either way so that in case you decide to waive it, the reporter has a kind of a certification different from the kind that is put on when you elect to sign it. mr. ofstein. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and you are entitled to a copy of the deposition if you wish to purchase one from this young lady, and you can make arrangements with her in that respect. mr. ofstein. fine. i will waive the right to sign. mr. jenner. and if at anytime you want a copy of your deposition, call miss oliver and if you happen to forget her name, talk to the u.s. attorney and he will give you her name. mr. ofstein. fine. mr. jenner. thank you very much for coming. mr. ofstein. all right. thank you. testimony of charles joseph le blanc the testimony of charles joseph le blanc was taken on april - , , at the old civil courts building, royal and conti streets, new orleans, la., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. charles joseph le blanc, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows: mr. liebeler. my name is wesley j. liebeler, i am a member of the legal staff of the president's commission investigating the assassination of president kennedy. staff members have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the commission pursuant to authority granted to the commission by executive order no. , dated november , , and joint resolution of congress no. . i understand that mr. lee rankin, general counsel of the commission, wrote you last week advising that we would be in touch with you concerning the taking of your testimony, and that he included with his letter a copy of the executive order and the joint resolution to which i have just referred, as well as a copy of the rules of procedure of the commission governing the taking of testimony of witnesses. is that correct? mr. le blanc. yes. mr. liebeler. i understand, mr. le blanc, that you were employed by the william b. reily coffee co., the william b. reily co. more precisely, and still are. mr. le blanc. yes. mr. liebeler. that you were employed by that company during the time that lee harvey oswald was also employed by it. is that correct? mr. le blanc. yes. mr. liebeler. before we get into the details, would you state your full name for the record, please. mr. le blanc. charles joseph le blanc. mr. liebeler. where do you live, mr. le blanc? mr. le blanc. south roman. mr. liebeler. is that here in new orleans? mr. le blanc. new orleans. mr. liebeler. where and when were you born, sir? mr. le blanc. november , . new orleans, la. mr. liebeler. have you lived here in new orleans all of your life? mr. le blanc. well, i lived in metairie for--oh, i would say all but the last years. mr. liebeler. then you moved to new orleans? mr. le blanc. yes. mr. liebeler. by whom are you employed? mr. le blanc. william b. reily coffee co. mr. liebeler. and how long have you worked for them? mr. le blanc. nine years. mr. liebeler. in what capacity are you employed by them? mr. le blanc. what do you mean? what i---- mr. liebeler. what do you do? mr. le blanc. maintenance man. mr. liebeler. you work as a maintenance man? mr. le blanc. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. what do you do in that job? mr. le blanc. general maintenance. mr. liebeler. you keep the machinery in running order? mr. le blanc. the machinery and different office equipment that needs to be fixed. mr. liebeler. what kind of machinery do they have over there? mr. le blanc. packaging machinery for the coffee. mr. liebeler. for packaging coffee? mr. le blanc. yes. mr. liebeler. do they grind the coffee up too and mix it and blend it? mr. le blanc. they roast it, grind it, and then it goes into these hoppers, and then down to the packaging machinery. mr. liebeler. it is packed in cans or in paper sacks or---- mr. le blanc. cans and bags. mr. liebeler. or both? mr. le blanc. cans and bags. mr. liebeler. how many maintenance men, approximately, do they have working over there? mr. le blanc. let's see; four. mr. liebeler. four? mr. le blanc. yes, four. mr. liebeler. is that the usual number that they have? mr. le blanc. yes, that is about it mostly. mr. liebeler. do you remember that lee oswald was employed by the reily company? mr. le blanc. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. tell us, as best you can recall, when you first met oswald and what your relationship with him was, what kind of a person he was, what he did. mr. le blanc. well, when they first hired him, well, they brought him to me, because i was to break him in on his job, so i started the procedure of going--start from the fifth floor on down, work a floor each day with him to take and get him broke in on the job and start showing him the routine, how to go about greasing. the first day, i mean when i was showing him, it look like if he caught on to it, all right, if he didn't, it was still all right. he looked like he was just one of these guys that just didn't care whether he learned it or he didn't learn it. and then after i took and--we usually go by the week, because usually after a week anybody with any mechanical knowledge, there is nothing to it, because all it is is finding the grease and oil fittings and we put him on his own. i put him on the fifth floor and told him to take care of everything on the fifth floor and i would be back shortly to check. i would take and put him up there, and about a half hour or minutes or so, i would go back up and check how he is doing. i would go up there and i wouldn't find him. so i asked the fellows that would be working on the floor had they seen him, and they said yes, he squirted the oil can a couple of times around different things and they don't know where he went. so i would start hunting all over the building. there is five stories on one side and four on the other. i would cover from the roof on down and i wouldn't locate him, and i asked him, i said, "well, where have you been?" and all he would give me was that he was around. i asked him, "around where?" he says, "just around," and he would turn around and walk off. on one occasion when i was in the shop and i was working on some sort of piece of machinery--i can't recall what it was at the present time--and he come in the shop and he was standing there by me and watching me, and i asked him, i says, "are you finished all your greasing?" he said yes. so he asked me, said, "well, can i help you?" i said, "no, what i am doing i don't need no help." so he stood there a few minutes, and all of a sudden he said, "you like it here?" i said, "what do you mean?" he says, "do you like it here?" i says, "well, sure i like it here. i have been here a long time, about - / years or so." he says, "oh, hell, i don't mean this place." i said, "well, what do you mean?" he says, "this damn country." i said, "why, certainly, i love it. after all, this is my country." he turned around and walked off. he didn't say any more. and then after that a lot of times i would be looking for him and the engineer would be looking for him, and on quite a number of occasions when it would get to be a coffeebreak time, we usually go next door to the crescent city garage to get a coke, and there he would be sitting in there drinking a coke and looking at these magazines. mr. liebeler. did you have a regular break time? mr. le blanc. yes. mr. liebeler. in the shop? mr. le blanc. we had o'clock in the morning and : in the evening. each one of them was a -minute break. mr. liebeler. what time did you usually start work in the morning? mr. le blanc. well, i started on different hours there for awhile. for awhile when he was there, i think i was around to , and i pretty well stayed those hours as long as---- mr. liebeler. oswald was there? mr. le blanc. while oswald was there. mr. liebeler. except for the break periods, you were supposed to be at your job---- mr. le blanc. yes. mr. liebeler. in the plant? mr. le blanc. in the plant. that is right. mr. liebeler. now what kind of supervision did oswald have in his work? you said that you took him around and tried to teach him how to do the job, but then after you finished breaking him in, at least as far as the fifth floor is concerned, he would be pretty much on his own, wouldn't he? mr. le blanc. no. i mean from the--i started him on the fifth, and then he would work his way on down to the first floor. see? the way i broke him in, i told him, "make sure that you have got everything on that one floor," and i said, "if it takes you a day to do it, let it take you a day," i said, "but make sure that you have got everything greased and oiled and cleaned." and that is what he was supposed to do, and i told him, i said, "then if you get finished the fifth floor, or whatever floor you are on, you can always work to the next floor." and then in the evening at : when the lines were shut down, we had these three machines that had to be cleaned, oiled and greased every day and sometimes twice a day--it all depends on how they ran--and he had to see to it that each evening at : they was cleaned and greased. mr. liebeler. now did he have anybody keeping track of him as a general proposition? he really didn't, did he? i mean, he was just---- mr. le blanc. well, the majority of the time he had somebody over him, but as a practice, i mean after you got broke in on your job, well, they wouldn't look after you, keep looking after you. they figured, well, you knew your job and you would go ahead and do your job. but after awhile, well, they seen he was drifting off. right to the last day before they let him go, why, we kept an eye on him, because we seen then that he wasn't doing the work that he was supposed to be doing. mr. liebeler. he really wasn't doing the work? mr. le blanc. no. mr. liebeler. he wasn't greasing the machines? mr. le blanc. no. and you see, we have a greasing log that when you grease the machine you log it the day that you grease it, and actually a lot of times i think he might have put stuff down in the log that he didn't even get to sometimes. mr. liebeler. just so i can get an idea of what kind of work he was doing, how were the machines greased? did he have a grease gun or cups and---- mr. le blanc. yes; well, we have an air grease gun and we also have these hand-type grease guns. mr. liebeler. and you used just regular alemite fittings and grease guns? mr. le blanc. yes. mr. liebeler. so i would imagine from time to time he ended up with the grease on his hands and it was a greasy job? mr. le blanc. yes; it was a dirty job. mr. liebeler. did he ever complain about that? mr. le blanc. well, he would complain now and then. i would tell him, well, that goes in with the job of oiling and greasing. mr. liebeler. now was he just basically an oiler and greaser, or was he classified as a maintenance man? mr. le blanc. no. mr. liebeler. that is a different thing? mr. le blanc. he was hired as an oiler and greaser and helper. mr. liebeler. did he seem to have any kind of mechanical proficiency at all? i mean, could you tell? did he seem to know his way around machines? mr. le blanc. it didn't look like he had. i think--i mean i don't know--i think he had that in his application, that he was mechanically inclined, but it didn't show up that way. mr. liebeler. did you have any other conversations with oswald that you can remember? mr. le blanc. no; i tell you, he was a boy of very few words. he would walk past you and wouldn't even ask how you are doing, or come and talk, like a lot of us, we would stop and maybe pass a few jokes or just talk a little with each other, but him--i think it was months that he was with us--still, i think if he said words to me, it was plenty, because even when i was breaking him in he wasn't the type boy that would ask you different things about the machines. i was doing all the talking and he was just looking. mr. liebeler. did these absences of his occur pretty much all the time, or did it get worse as he stayed there? mr. le blanc. well, toward the last it begin to get pretty regular, and that is when i think they decided to let him go. and another thing i recall: he had this habit, every time he would walk past you he would just [demonstrating] just like a kid playing cowboys or something--you know, he used his finger like a gun. he would go, "pow!" and i used to look at him, and i said, "boy, what a crackpot this guy is!" mr. liebeler. that is what you thought? mr. le blanc. yes. right off the bat i said, "this is a crackpot"; right off. mr. liebeler. did he seem to just use his fingers like that, as a gun, as a joke, you mean, or---- mr. le blanc. well, i didn't know what to think of it, you know, because he--on quite a number of times he would do that, you know. if you would walk past him, he would do that. mr. liebeler. did he smile or laugh, or what? mr. le blanc. no. when he would do it, he wouldn't even crack a smile. that is what used to get me. if somebody would be doing something in a joking manner, at least they would smile, but he was one that very seldom would talk or would smile either, and that is why i could never figure him out. mr. liebeler. did oswald have any other associates or people that worked with him closely in the plant, or would you say that you probably worked with him as closely as anybody else? mr. le blanc. well, i imagine i was about the closest, myself and the other maintenance man. mr. liebeler. the other maintenance men? there were three more? mr. le blanc. well, there is the engineer, and they had this other boy. mr. liebeler. what is his name? mr. le blanc. well, the engineer is emmett barbe--i think you all have a statement from him--and then the other boy was arturo rodriguez. mr. liebeler. of mexican or puerto rican background? mr. le blanc. he is mexican, i think. mr. liebeler. do you know whether oswald was associated with rodriguez outside of the plant at all? mr. le blanc. no, sir. mr. liebeler. you don't have any way of knowing? mr. le blanc. no. mr. liebeler. did oswald ever talk to you about his family? mr. le blanc. no; that was something he very seldom talked about, and myself and the engineer, emmett barbe, we always were talking about our families. he had quite a bit of sickness and i had quite a bit of sickness, and a lot of times we would be talking about our families and kids and oswald, he never would bring in his family, and it was a good while after he was employed with us that i actually found out he was married, because i didn't think he was married because he never did talk about his wife or kids or nobody. mr. liebeler. did you have a lunch break---- mr. le blanc. yes. mr. liebeler. during the day, you had a lunch break? mr. le blanc. we had and : . now at that time i don't know whether we just had the : or we had two breaks--i can't recall--but i think it was two breaks, lunch breaks, and : . mr. liebeler. did oswald eat lunch with anybody? do you remember? mr. le blanc. not that i know of. he had never eaten with me, i know. mr. liebeler. where do you usually have lunch? mr. le blanc. well, myself, i bring mine; but most of them that don't bring their lunch, they usually go down to the corner restaurant. mr. liebeler. did oswald bring his lunch, or did he eat in the restaurant? mr. le blanc. well, no; i think he went down to the corner restaurant a lot of times. mr. liebeler. is that martin's restaurant? mr. le blanc. martin's; yes, sir. mr. liebeler. do you have any idea what he used to have for lunch? mr. le blanc. no, sir; i don't. mr. liebeler. do you have any idea how much he spent for his lunch? mr. le blanc. no, sir. mr. liebeler. what kind of a place is martin's, a pretty inexpensive place or---- mr. le blanc. it is a reasonable place for regular factory--most all the factory workers around there eat there. it is pretty reasonable. mr. liebeler. did you ever form any opinion of oswald? you mentioned that you thought he was probably a little bit of a crackpot or somewhat of a crackpot for playing this game with his fingers like he was shooting a gun, but just generally what did you think of this guy? mr. le blanc. i just--i used to always think--i didn't know whether he was right or whether he had troubles on his mind or what. i mean, i couldn't actually figure what was actually wrong with him, because, i mean, we would go on break and sit on the driveway on the bench. usually among the maintenance--we always usually a lot of times sit together and we would talk over the job or something, but he would sit on the bench, and he looked like he would be staring into space, and sometimes you would think he was looking right at you, and if you would happen to go to say something, he wouldn't answer you. looked like that is how far his mind was. mr. liebeler. he seemed to be thinking about something else? mr. le blanc. yes; and looked like his mind was far away at all times. mr. liebeler. there weren't any of the men there that, as far as you knew, he ever really talked to---- mr. le blanc. no. mr. liebeler. or anyone he ever opened up to in anyway? mr. le blanc. no. mr. liebeler. did you talk about oswald with the men over there since the assassination? mr. le blanc. what is that? mr. liebeler. have you talked about oswald with the other maintenance men or the other men at the plant? mr. le blanc. no; i tell you, we hadn't talked very much, because we just--we left things as was. mr. liebeler. you never had any conversations with anybody that you can remember, speculating as to whether oswald really did this or whether he was capable of it, he was that kind of a guy? mr. le blanc. well, the most talk was around the plant a lot of times, that they thought he was actually too stupid to actually pull something like that. they didn't think he even had enough brains to pull a foolish thing like that, because that is just the kind of a person he looked to be. mr. liebeler. he didn't seem to be particularly intelligent or---- mr. le blanc. no. mr. liebeler. did he seem to be interested in his surroundings or just sort of a---- mr. le blanc. like in his greasing records, one time something could be spelled right, and just a little ways away he might have to use the same word and it would be all misspelled. i don't know whether he didn't know how to write or he just didn't care how he put it down. mr. liebeler. did you ever question him about that or indicate to him that he was misspelling words? mr. le blanc. well, on a couple of occasions i told him if he could write plainer, it would be a lot better for me to check, because a lot of times if something would go wrong with a machine, we would go to that greasing log and check when is the last time it was greased, and when you would look at his writing, it would be like greek, you couldn't hardly understand it. mr. liebeler. what did he say about that? mr. le blanc. well, he would look at you and turn around and walk off. mr. liebeler. he wouldn't say anything? mr. le blanc. wouldn't say nothing. that is what used to get me. i used to--if i bawled him out about not greasing something, ordinarily a man would tell you, well, i will try to do better, or, that is the best i could do, or something like that, but that is what used to get me so mad when he would give me no answer whatsoever, and that is when i told him one day, i said, "you are going to end up driving me crazy if i am going to have to keep up with this guy, because he don't give me no answer whatsoever if i bawl him out about his job or anything." mr. liebeler. who did you tell that to--mr. barbe? mr. le blanc. well, i think it was barbe i told that to. mr. liebeler. he is a sort of a--what--engineer, plant engineer? mr. le blanc. yes; he is the plant engineer. mr. liebeler. you never mentioned to oswald the misspellings in the words that---- mr. le blanc. no; i didn't mention misspelling. i figured, well, maybe the boy can't spell so good, and i figured, well, as long as it was close, i might be able to understand it, but there was a couple of occasions he would put things down and i would have to actually ask him what it was, because it wasn't nowhere near the name that the machine would actually be. mr. liebeler. and you noticed that sometimes he would spell things right and sometimes he would just spell them wrong? mr. le blanc. sometimes he would spell them wrong and sometimes he would spell them right. that is what i couldn't understand about him. mr. liebeler. did you ever discuss that with mr. barbe or anybody? mr. le blanc. no; when mr. barbe noticed it was the day after the assassination when the agent was there and we were trying to get all the possible information we could get off of it, you know, and that is when we got the greasing records of when he was there and went through them, and that is when he seen a lot of misspelling. mr. liebeler. do you know whether those records were turned over to the secret service or the fbi? mr. le blanc. yes; they were turned over. mr. liebeler. the greasing records were? mr. le blanc. yes. mr. liebeler. can you think of anything else that you can remember about oswald that you think might be helpful? i am about out of questions myself. do you have anything else that you remember---- mr. le blanc. no. mr. liebeler. or that you think i should have asked you about? mr. le blanc. no. mr. liebeler. well, in that case, i want to thank you very much for the cooperation that you have shown us and for your patience. mr. le blanc. any way i could help. i was glad to. mr. liebeler. i want to thank you very much, mr. le blanc, both personally and on behalf of the commission. we appreciate it very much. mr. le blanc. because before he was killed, i told the investigators that if there was any way that i could help them to solve this thing--because we was pretty well shook up about it to think that somebody at our place, that worked at our place, had to pull a stunt like that, and we were out to get down to the bottom of it. mr. liebeler. did you ever hear oswald talking politics with anybody, or did you ever talk politics to him yourself? mr. le blanc. no; around election time or anything like that, sometimes a conversation or something would come up, but he never would bring up a conversation about any politics. mr. liebeler. you never heard him say anything about president kennedy? mr. le blanc. no, sir. mr. liebeler. you never had any question come up as to racial problems or integration problems? he never expressed himself on that? mr. le blanc. no. mr. liebeler. are there any negro employees over there at the plant? mr. le blanc. oh, yes; there is a number of them, quite a number of them. mr. liebeler. did oswald demonstrate any particular animosity toward them, or did he seem to treat them differently from the rest of the men? mr. le blanc. no; he went along just like if they was white, i mean just the way he went about with us, not saying anything. that was the same way with them, looked like. mr. liebeler. he didn't think that he was either--that he felt particularly differently about the negro employees than the other men? mr. le blanc. no; it didn't look like it. you know what i mean, with his attitude. mr. liebeler. i think we have covered it. thanks a lot. testimony of adrian thomas alba the testimony of adrian thomas alba was taken on april , , at the old civil courts building, royal and conti streets, new orleans, la., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. a witness, having been duly sworn by mr. wesley j. liebeler to testify the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help him god, testified as follows: mr. liebeler. mr. alba, my name is wesley j. liebeler. i am a member of the legal staff of the president's commission investigating the assassination of president kennedy. the commission has authorized staff members to take the testimony of witnesses pursuant to authority granted to it by executive order , dated november , , and joint resolution of congress no. . i understand that mr. rankin wrote to you last week and told you that i would be in touch with you concerning the taking of your testimony, and that he enclosed with his letter a copy of the executive order and the resolution referred to, together with a copy of the commission's rules of procedure governing the taking of the testimony by the commission? mr. alba. that is correct. mr. liebeler. we want to inquire of you concerning any knowledge you might have of lee harvey oswald which you might have gained as a result of, as we understand it, his habit or practice of coming into your garage, which is, we understand, located right next door to the reily company on magazine street, is that correct? mr. alba. that is correct. mr. liebeler. before we go into detail, will you state your full name for the record? mr. alba. adrian thomas alba. mr. liebeler. where were you born? mr. alba. in new orleans. mr. liebeler. when? mr. alba. january , . mr. liebeler. what is your employment at the present time? mr. alba. crescent city garage, auto garage. mr. liebeler. are you owner of the garage? mr. alba. yes, part owner. mr. liebeler. i beg your pardon? mr. alba. i am an officer in the garage. mr. liebeler. are you regularly located at the garage itself? do you work out of the garage? mr. alba. no, right there. mr. liebeler. right there? mr. alba. yes. mr. liebeler. what is the nature of the garage? mr. alba. auto storage garage primarily. mr. liebeler. the address of the garage is magazine street? mr. alba. that is correct. mr. liebeler. it is right next door to the william b. reily coffee co.? mr. alba. that is correct. mr. liebeler. did you ever become acquainted with or observe in your garage lee harvey oswald? mr. alba. through conversations and outdoor life magazines in the office--i have a coffee pot there, and a coffee table, and some chairs, and a magazine rack, where he frequented the magazines quite often and drank coffee. and i have a coke machine there. mr. liebeler. did this fellow, did you tell us what his name was? mr. alba. all i knew him was as "lee." mr. liebeler. just lee? mr. alba. yes. mr. liebeler. i understand that you are a gun enthusiast, is that correct? mr. alba. that is correct. mr. liebeler. and that you kept in your office in the garage various magazines relating to outdoor life and guns? mr. alba. yes. mr. liebeler. did oswald ever discuss guns with you? mr. alba. yes, he did. mr. liebeler. can you tell us what he said, and what you said on the subject? mr. alba. he pursued the issue of ordering guns, and how many guns had i ever ordered, and how long did it take to get them, and where had i ordered guns from---- mr. liebeler. go ahead. what did you tell him? just tell us the conversation that you had with him. mr. alba. i told him that i had a gun on order at the present time, a u.s. . caliber carbine, and he asked had i received the gun, on several occasions, after that. i told him no, that i hadn't. and he asked me would i consider selling him the gun if and when i got it. i told him no. mr. liebeler. was there anything peculiar about this particular rifle that made oswald want it? or why did he want you to sell this rifle? do you know? mr. alba. he told me he had a couple of guns, and he would like to have the carbine. he was familiar with the carbine from the service, i believe. mr. liebeler. and this was the regular m- carbine? mr. alba. regular m- carbine, yes. mr. liebeler. from whom had you ordered that carbine? do you recall? mr. alba. through the national rifle association. mr. liebeler. did oswald indicate to you what other kind of rifle or weapons that he had? mr. alba. no; he didn't. he did make a remark that he had--i think he said he had several rifles and several pistols, but he did not go into the nature of the arms, or how much, or what they were. mr. liebeler. did he ever express any interest in any rifle that you indicated that you had, other than this m- carbine that you told him you had ordered? mr. alba. one . springfield rifle that i had. mr. liebeler. did you have that? mr. alba. i was in the process of sporterizing that at the garage at the time---- mr. liebeler. what did he say about that particular weapon? mr. alba. he said what was it worth to me, and i told him it was worth over $ to me. there was no followup on that. mr. liebeler. was this particular rifle that you have referred to, a japanese rifle? mr. alba. no; it wasn't. i had a japanese rifle down there that was not for sale, and he was more partial to the japanese rifle than the springfield and the carbine put together. mr. liebeler. he was really interested---- mr. alba. he was more interested in the japanese rifle. mr. liebeler. had you already sporterized that? mr. alba. that was completely sporterized. mr. liebeler. what do you do to a rifle when you sporterize it? mr. alba. alter the stock, eliminate some of the weight, and the length of the stock, because it is a military piece to start with, and you glass-bead the stock. mr. liebeler. and what does that mean? mr. alba. to accurize the stock, and you put this where you have all metal to wood contact in the stock. it is referred to as accurizing, and sporterizing, and customizing a piece. mr. liebeler. what did oswald say about this particular japanese rifle? mr. alba. nothing other than his desire to possess the gun, or to purchase the gun from me. mr. liebeler. do you recall being interviewed by an agent of the fbi? mr. alba. yes; i do. mr. liebeler. how many times were you interviewed by the fbi? mr. alba. twice, i believe. let me retract that--the fbi came to the office, i think, three different times. i was never up in their office or contacted---- mr. liebeler. did you discuss this japanese rifle with them? mr. alba. yes; i did. mr. liebeler. and do you recall telling them that oswald was interested in the number of inches that had been cut from the barrel of the gun? mr. alba. i believe i did; yes. mr. liebeler. do you recall what oswald said about that? mr. alba. no; not other than a general discussion of the trajectory and the feet per second, and et cetera, and the general accuracy elimination--i mean elimination of the accuracy of the gun cutting the barrel off. mr. liebeler. what is the effect of cutting the barrel? mr. alba. on the accuracy of a rifle; none. mr. liebeler. did you tell oswald that? mr. alba. i did. mr. liebeler. did he seem surprised? mr. alba. not that my memory would--if my memory would serve me correctly; no. mr. liebeler. did he seem to have a fairly good knowledge of a rifle? mr. alba. he did of the military pieces, the m- and the garand. he was asking questions about the japanese rifle and the springfield, the -a, the a- springfield, inquiring questions about those pieces, but he seemed to have a very thorough knowledge of the m- and the garand. mr. liebeler. you just mentioned two different rifles, or three different rifles that he showed a real familiarity with? mr. alba. two. mr. liebeler. this was the straight m- gas-operated rifle that has been used by the military services? mr. alba. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. and the other was the springfield? mr. alba. no, no; the other was the garand m- . the garand m- and you have the m- carbine. both are gas-operated. mr. liebeler. those are the only two weapons that he showed any particular or real familiarity with, is that correct? mr. alba. that is correct. mr. liebeler. did he tell you how he became familiar with these? mr. alba. no; he didn't. mr. liebeler. did you ever give it any thought as to how he became familiar with these weapons? mr. alba. yes; i did. i assumed that was through the armed forces training. mr. liebeler. did he ever tell you anything about that? mr. alba. no; he hadn't, other than he had the service behind him. mr. liebeler. he didn't tell you what branch of the service he had been in? mr. alba. no; he didn't. mr. liebeler. the japanese rifle that you said you had completely sporterized, can you tell us approximately how long that weapon would be when it is put together? mr. alba. prior to sporterizing or after sporterizing? mr. liebeler. both? mr. alba. i took approximately to - / inches off of the barrel, and i think it was left with a - / -inch barrel, and it had approximately a - or a -inch barrel to start off with. mr. liebeler. when you fastened the barrel to the stock, can you tell us approximately how long that rifle would be? mr. alba. i can take a guess--i never really measured it, or any of my pieces, for that matter, but i would say approximately inches. mr. liebeler. can these rifles be readily broken down, taking the stock and removing it from the barrel? mr. alba. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. how long would the stock be separate from the barrel in this japanese rifle? mr. alba. from the butt of the stock to the extreme end of the forearm would be approximately inches, i imagine, or about feet. mr. liebeler. when you say that the barrel was inches long, do you mean that the entire length of the action and the barrel? mr. alba. the barrel only, from the breech to the muzzle. mr. liebeler. about how long is the action? mr. alba. about inches, or inches. you are asking me questions now that i have never pursued before for my own information and satisfaction. these are only approximate guesses. mr. liebeler. so the effect of sporterizing a rifle generally is to shorten the overall length of the rifle, is that not right, by removing a portion of the barrel itself? mr. alba. that is correct, and the weight. mr. liebeler. in addition to shortening the overall length of the rifle, also when you sporterize a rifle you shorten the stock itself so that when you break the rifle down into two pieces, the action and the barrel is one piece, and the stock the other piece, and the length of the rifle broken down, or the two pieces laid together, would be less also, isn't that correct? mr. alba. yes. mr. liebeler. because of the tendency to shorten the stock? mr. alba. but that is not the main motive behind it---- mr. liebeler. no; the motive behind it is to reduce the weight of the rifle? mr. alba. the weight; yes. mr. liebeler. did oswald indicate to you whether the weapons that he had or weapon was a military piece, or whether it had been sporterized, or anything about it? mr. alba. if my memory serves me, he told me he had a few rifles and a few pistols, and never pursued the issue any further to name what they were or what they weren't. i don't know whether it is an assumption on my part or not, and if i am not mistaken he said they were military arms. mr. liebeler. he didn't indicate whether he sporterized them or not? mr. alba. no, sir. mr. liebeler. did he display familiarity with the whole proposition of sporterizing a rifle? mr. alba. no; he didn't. mr. liebeler. did he display, or did you draw any conclusions as to whether he was familiar with this process or not? mr. alba. no. and yes; i would say that i had drawn an opinion that he was not familiar with the sporterizing of arms. mr. liebeler. do you remember any other conversations that you and oswald had about rifles or weapons? mr. alba. none other than he asking permission to borrow some magazines from time to time. and as far as i knew, they were all returned. mr. liebeler. what kind of magazines were these? mr. alba. outdoor life and field and stream, argosy, and hunting and fishing magazines, and national rifle association magazines. and guns and ammo magazines. mr. liebeler. did he ever have discussions with you about the relative merits of a small calibre as opposed to large calibre bullets? mr. alba. none. mr. liebeler. you are very clear about that in your mind? mr. alba. we discussed the wounding effect of combat guns of the small calibre versus the large calibres, yes. mr. liebeler. what was that discussion? mr. alba. well, the small calibre in the field would tend to disable a man and require two men to cart him off, versus the larger calibre which would knock out a man permanently. mr. liebeler. i am looking at an fbi report which indicates that on november , , you were interviewed by two agents of the fbi, mr. lester g. davis, and john william miller---- mr. alba. i remember that. mr. liebeler. and the report indicates that you recalled an additional conversation that you had with oswald in which you and oswald discussed the merits of small calibres and larger calibre bullets, and the report said that you recall that oswald mentioned that a small calibre bullet was more deadly than the larger one, to which point you agreed. mr. alba. having been left with a wounding effect you would survive a larger calibre wound, your chances of survival from a larger or large calibre wound would be greater than the smaller calibre. we went into the discussion of basing the thing in the ice pick versus the bread knife--i don't think i mentioned this part to the fbi--reflecting on the whole picture that you would be better off receiving a wound from a -inch bread knife than you would be being gigged once with a - or -inch ice pick, and that reflecting the difference between the large calibre wound and the small calibre wound. mr. liebeler. what led you and oswald to agree that you would be better off being hit with a bread knife than with the ice pick? mr. alba. internal bleeding. mr. liebeler. there would be more internal bleeding from the ice pick? mr. alba. small calibre or the ice pick; yes. mr. liebeler. so that you both agreed that the small calibre bullet would be more deadly than the larger one? mr. alba. being left with a wounded effect; in other words, if it was my intention to destroy an animal i would prefer the large calibre, but if an animal was wounded with a large calibre, or a small calibre bullet, i would say that the smaller calibre bullet would be more deadly in the end than the large calibre wound, and he might survive the large calibre with an open wound. mr. liebeler. during the course of this conversation, did oswald indicate in anyway whether the rifles that he had were large calibre or small calibre weapons? mr. alba. none other than the weapons were of the military, and i don't know--that part is an assumption on my part or whether he actually said it. he went to no length at all in discussing his firearms. in fact, it was my experience with lee oswald that you had to ask lee oswald questions. either lee oswald was talking to you, or he wasn't talking at all. and i may have asked him what he had in the way of firearms. mr. liebeler. did he mention that he had a pistol, or pistols? mr. alba. if i remember correctly, i think he said he had a few, or a couple, or two. i am not definite. mr. liebeler. a couple of pistols? mr. alba. pistols--he said he had a few rifles, and a few pistols--or it was a couple, or it was two. i am not clear. mr. liebeler. you were discussing this question of whether or not oswald had any pistols with the fbi, and do you remember discussing it? mr. alba. if i made any mention of it, i am sure it would be as i have just represented it to be. i have no recollection of my definite discussions with the fbi at the time. i do remember, however, meeting the gentlemen and discussing lee oswald with them. mr. liebeler. do you remember whether oswald seemed more interested or was disposed more in favor of rifles than pistols? or did he seem---- mr. alba. very definitely toward the rifle side. mr. liebeler. he was more interested in rifles? mr. alba. very little interested in the pistols. i had as many as three or--i think at one time four pistols down there, and lee oswald was very, very keen toward the rifles that were among my sporterizing projects, and so on; other than the pistols, he had very, very little interest in the pistols. mr. liebeler. do you do the sporterizing work on these weapons right there in your garage? mr. alba. that is correct. and what i didn't do, i jobbed out, that is, i gave out to gunsmiths. mr. liebeler. to what? mr. alba. to a gunsmith. mr. liebeler. did oswald ever tell you that he had fired these rifles or this rifle that he owned? mr. alba. none other than to ask me if i knew of a place where you could discharge firearms, that is, close by, without getting in the car and riding for hours. mr. liebeler. what did you say when he asked you about that? mr. alba. my reply was that i joined the national rifle association, and i have been able to shoot on the rifle range. it had been some years since i had done any shooting along the river road or the levy, or anything else like that, and that i am sure that if you attempted that today, they either would run you off or arrest you for discharging firearms. mr. liebeler. did you mention specifically a rifle range where you had discharged your firearms? mr. alba. i believe i did, and i am sure that if i did i told him that he would have to be a member in order to be able to use the range. mr. liebeler. what range was it? mr. alba. crescent gun, claiborne avenue, owns the range, and if you are a national rifle association member, then you have the privileges of belonging to the rifle range across the river, which belongs to crescent gun. mr. liebeler. did oswald ever indicate an intention to join the national rifle association? mr. alba. none. mr. liebeler. in connection with this carbine that you had ordered from the national rifle association, you indicated that he had expressed an interest in buying that weapon from you? is that correct? mr. alba. he had an interest very much, and after i told him that i wouldn't sell the gun, and i had mentioned that i was getting the gun for approximately $ through the n.r.a., and that this same gun on the market would sell from $ to $ , and he had made the expression that if and when "you get the carbine, should you decide to sell it, i would make it worthwhile for you to sell the gun." mr. liebeler. but he never spoke of joining the n.r.a. in order to obtain a carbine such as this himself? mr. alba. no. mr. liebeler. did he ask you how much it cost to join the national rifle association? mr. alba. no; he didn't. mr. liebeler. you didn't tell him? mr. alba. no. mr. liebeler. how much does it cost? mr. alba. $ . mr. liebeler. $ ? mr. alba. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. did you go through these various gun magazines and sporting magazines that oswald had looked at? you went through them after the assassination, is that correct? mr. alba. had i gone through these magazines that lee oswald had borrowed from me? mr. liebeler. yes. mr. alba. and had i gone through them since the assassination? mr. liebeler. yes. mr. alba. since the assassination the fbi and the secret service took the magazines off, and i have not received them since. mr. liebeler. but you had read these magazines or gone through them prior to the time that oswald looked at them? mr. alba. yes. mr. liebeler. then you left them in your office and oswald borrowed some and brought them back? mr. alba. well, we have a coffee urn and a coke machine and some chairs in there, and a coffee table, and on the coffee table i would say that i had approximately anywhere from to magazines. mr. liebeler. and you didn't go through them after the assassination and prior to the time that the fbi and the secret service removed them from your office? mr. alba. would you repeat the---- mr. liebeler. you didn't go through any of these magazines that oswald had looked at after the assassination and prior to the time that the fbi and the secret service had removed them from your office, is that correct? mr. alba. none other than my most current issues that i had recently received in the mail, such as the national rifle magazine or "guns and ammo" edition---- mr. liebeler. those magazines wouldn't have been at lee oswald's disposal because they would have come in after the time he had been there? mr. alba. that is correct. mr. liebeler. can you tell whether or not the magazines that oswald read, or borrowed and read and returned, were still there in the garage at the time of the assassination, or at the time the fbi came and took the magazines from you? mr. alba. lee oswald borrowed the magazines and requested permission to take one or two off at a time, and kept them anywhere from days to a week, and would make the point of letting me know that he was returning them. and then a few days later he would ask that he borrow another magazine or two magazines. i would say that there were anywhere from three to five definite occasions i do remember of lee oswald asking to take this and that magazine and letting me know that he returned the magazines. mr. liebeler. so as far as you know there was nobody else that would have removed them from your office, and they would have stayed there after oswald brought them back? mr. alba. some of them do disappear from time to time. mr. liebeler. and you have no way of knowing whether all the ones that oswald looked at were in your office when the fbi and the secret service came and picked them up? mr. alba. no. mr. liebeler. when was the last time you saw oswald? mr. alba. the last time i saw lee oswald was when he told me that he was leaving for michoud. he had put in an application at michoud, where he was going to make the big money, in this town here. he mentioned that prior or about weeks prior to leaving. when he did leave, he came in the office and he says, "well--" this was approximately o'clock in the morning, he said, "well, i will be seeing you." i said, "where are you headed?" he said, "out there, where the gold is." i said, "where is that?" he said, "i told you i was going out to michoud, and that i had an application out there." he said, "well, i have heard from them, and i have just wound up things next door at the coffee company, and i am on my way out there now." that again, was approximately--i may stand to be corrected on my timing--but that was approximately some weeks before the assassination. mr. liebeler. what is this "michoud" that he mentioned to you? how do you spell it? mr. alba. that's the national air space program, the rockets, out in gentilly. that's nasa. mr. liebeler. what kind of an operation do they have there? is it a manufacturing operation? mr. alba. it is the rocket, the atlas rocket, i believe. mr. liebeler. they construct them there, is that correct? mr. alba. that is correct. mr. liebeler. did he tell you what kind of work he was going to do for the organization? mr. alba. no; he didn't. mr. liebeler. you mentioned "michoud," and is that the name of a city here? mr. alba. michoud, that's this particular section of gentilly, gentilly section, where the plant is located. mr. liebeler. is that part of new orleans proper? mr. alba. it is part of new orleans, part of orleans parish. mr. liebeler. part of new orleans itself? mr. alba. yes. mr. liebeler. did oswald tell you what kind of work he was doing for reily co.? mr. alba. i don't think he ever did, but it was--it was obvious that he was in the electrical end of the maintenance end of the factory at w. b. reily coffee. mr. liebeler. what did he say? or why do you say it was obvious? mr. alba. he was just like the others there in the maintenance and the electrical end, and they would wear the electrician's belt with a bandoleer, screwdriver, pliers, and friction tape, et cetera. mr. liebeler. did he wear that? mr. alba. yes, he did. mr. liebeler. did you ever discuss this fellow oswald with anybody at the reily co.? mr. alba. not prior to the assassination, no. mr. liebeler. have you discussed it with people at the reily co. after the assassination? mr. alba. yes, i have. people were coming up to me at that time and asking me about what had happened to my friend lee oswald that used to hang around the office all the time, as an opening to discuss what had taken place in dallas. mr. liebeler. can you remember the name of the people at the coffee company that you discussed oswald with? mr. alba. the people in general that would come in the office during the day, as lee oswald himself would do. mr. liebeler. did the people that did come in that way indicate they also had known oswald while he worked at the coffee company? mr. alba. i hadn't realized anyone that knew lee oswald, or that that was the man who worked with them prior to the assassination, but after the assassination, which might be expected, it seems that anyone you would talk to knew who he was and had seen him, and so forth. mr. liebeler. do you remember any particular people who did, in fact, seem to know him, or that you think did know him that you talked to about him? mr. alba. none in particular, no. mr. liebeler. what was the general substance of these conversations? mr. alba. half kidding and half general conversations about, "isn't it something, what happened?" and that it happened to be someone that was right here at work "with us at reily, and that you knew from over here, next door." several people, employees at reily, would tell me that employees at reily had told them after the assassination, of course, that lee oswald spent as much time "over at alba's garage as he did over here in the plant." mr. liebeler. did that seem to be the case to you prior to the assassination? mr. alba. yes and no; if that is any kind of an answer. lee oswald was sent for and called from the office on several occasions. lee oswald would come to the office, put a nickel in the coke machine and start paging through magazines and just lost track of time. lee oswald was not talkative unless he was more or less pursuing the conversation himself. in fact, if that makes any sense to you---- mr. liebeler. so it seems to you then that he spent more time in your place than he should have been spending, is that correct? mr. alba. that is correct, but certainly not more time at my place than at reily coffee, as some might have tried to indicate to me in a conversation. but i am sure that it was intended only as a phrase of kidding. mr. liebeler. did you ever hear of complaints from the coffee company that oswald wasn't on the job over there? mr. alba. none other than from the men themselves that were working with lee oswald. mr. liebeler. you heard these complaints after the assassination, is that correct, didn't you? mr. alba. that is correct. mr. liebeler. you said that he was called from your garage to go back to the coffee company from time to time? mr. alba. there were anywhere from two to four different occasions that i can remember that someone would come in there and tell him, "now, lee oswald, they are looking for you over there. if you keep this up, you are going to get canned." and oswald would say, "i'm coming. i'm coming." mr. liebeler. and then he would go back to the coffee company? mr. alba. he would. mr. liebeler. how did this fellow impress you? mr. alba. he certainly didn't impress me as anyone capable or anyone burdened with a charge of assassinating the president of the united states, let alone any individual, for that matter. our conversations were purely the gun magazines, the firearms themselves, and little of anything else. lee oswald wasn't very talkative, not to be repeating myself, unless, of course, he was pretty much leading the conversation or doing the talking himself, on the same conversation level all the time--about the firearms. mr. liebeler. did he strike you as being peculiar in any way? mr. alba. yes; he did. he was quiet. mr. liebeler. he was quiet? mr. alba. he was quiet. you could ask lee oswald two or three questions, and if lee oswald wasn't apparently interested in the course of the conversation, he would just remain paging through the book and look up and say, "did you say something to me?" i hesitate putting the conversation back to lee oswald pursuing it first, but all you had to do was mention guns and gun magazines and lee oswald was very free with the conversation. mr. liebeler. did he seem to have an interest in firearms that was abnormal or extremely great, or anything like that? mr. alba. none. mr. liebeler. other than the fact that he was quiet, was there anything about him that struck you as being odd or peculiar? mr. alba. no. mr. liebeler. you didn't suspect he was a violent kind of person, or anything like that, the time that you knew him, did you? mr. alba. i would answer that indeed not. i had never gotten the impression from lee oswald that he was capable of any plot or assassination, or what have you, of that nature. mr. liebeler. and were you surprised when you heard he had been arrested in connection with the assassination? mr. alba. i was very much surprised. mr. liebeler. after you heard he had been charged with the assassination, did it seem to you then that he could have been capable of such a thing? or did you hold to your former opinion? mr. alba. i think i held to my former opinion. things i have seen on television, of course, and read in the newspapers, and so forth, has laid out some suggestive pattern that lee oswald was a subversive, et cetera, toward the country, and maybe even the president, or something; but prior to that assassination he gave me no indication at anytime that he was burdened with such a charge, or that he was concerned or involved with anything of that nature. he had never at anytime spoken against the president or the country. he had never at anytime, prior to the assassination, of course, mentioned communism to me, or anything suggestive or leading to it, or otherwise. mr. liebeler. do you remember whether he mentioned the president at all, one way or another? mr. alba. i think i might answer that with a definite answer--i can't remember anytime that lee oswald had ever mentioned the president, the country, foreign countries, et cetera. mr. liebeler. is it customary, or the usual sort of thing for people in this area to discuss politics, or discuss the president? people that come into your garage or---- mr. alba. well, the usual trend of conversation in the garage, other than the garage business or the personal customers' cars or neighbors that walk in the garage that want change for the coke machine, et cetera, would be either politics--i would say mostly politics more than anything else. mr. liebeler. what was the attitude of most of the men toward president kennedy? was he well liked down here, or was he not highly thought of? mr. alba. he was very highly thought of for his convictions, for his stand on his convictions, but he wasn't too well thought of for his stand on the integration program to the south. mr. liebeler. was it common for the people to complain about that sort of thing? mr. alba. that is correct. mr. liebeler. and you never heard oswald discuss that? mr. alba. not once. mr. liebeler. was he ever present when the subject was discussed by others, as far as you can recall? mr. alba. i really wouldn't know, or be able to comment whether he was or not. it's very possible that he was, and maybe on several occasions, but not to my recollection. mr. liebeler. he never responded in any way? mr. alba. no. mr. liebeler. i am going to show you some pictures that have been marked in other proceedings, five different pictures marked "commission exhibits , and through ," and ask you if you recognize the person or persons depicted in these pictures? (photographs shown to the witness.) mr. alba. no. mr. liebeler. i show you another picture marked "pizzo exhibit -a," and ask you if you recognize any of the people on that picture? mr. alba. lee oswald only. [viewing photograph.] mr. liebeler. which one is he? mr. alba. right here [indicating], and this looks like jack ruby [indicating], but i would only recognize him from the television pictures and pictures in the papers. mr liebeler. the picture that you indicated as being oswald is the man marked with an "x" over his head, is that correct? mr. alba. that is correct. mr. liebeler. i show you another picture which has been marked "pizzo exhibit -b" and ask you if you recognize anybody in that picture? mr. alba. lee oswald only. [viewing photograph.] mr. liebeler. and that is the man marked with a "green mark," is that correct? mr. alba. that is correct. mr. liebeler. do you recognize the street scene, by any chance? mr. alba. no. mr. liebeler. i show you another picture marked "pizzo exhibit -c," and ask you if you recognize that man? mr. alba. that's lee harvey oswald. [viewing photograph.] mr. liebeler. do you have anything else that you think that the commission would be interested in that i haven't asked you about, concerning your knowledge of oswald, and your relations with him? mr. alba. i wouldn't think. the source of conversations was of a nature of a neighborhood acquaintanceship, nothing more. he has never been suggestive toward any other things other than what i have already discussed with you, as far as his interest in guns and gun magazines and gun conversations. mr. liebeler. he never indicated any interest in cuba or cuban affairs? mr. alba. never. mr. liebeler. did you know that he had been arrested by the new orleans police department in connection with the distribution of "fair play for cuba committee" literature in new orleans? mr. alba. no; i hadn't, but i found out after the assassination. mr. liebeler. did you know that he appeared on wdsu television and debated with some cubans? you don't know that? mr. alba. no. mr. liebeler. if you can't think of anything else, anything else you would like to add at this point, i have no further questions. mr. alba. i would feel free if there was, but i don't think there is anything further that i would like to add that can be of any help to you. mr. liebeler. in view of that, on behalf of the commission i want to thank you very much for the cooperation you have shown. thank you very much. affidavit of chester allen riggs, jr. the following affidavit was executed by chester allen riggs, jr., on may , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy state of texas, _county of tarrant, ss_: chester allen riggs, jr., being duly sworn says: . i am vice president of orbit industries, inc., carroll, fort worth, texas. i reside at edgefield in that city. . i am and have been prior to july of , the owner of a duplex house located at mercedes street, fort worth, texas. that duplex contains two furnished apartments. . sometime in july, , i rented one of the apartment units to lee harvey oswald. while i do not keep precise records of the tenants of the above apartments, since there is a fairly high rate of turnover amongst them, to the best of my recollection, lee oswald and his wife lived in the apartment from some time in july of until early october of that year. . i do not keep records of the rental payable on each of the apartments. my records reflect only the total rental paid on a number of apartments which i own in the vicinity of mercedes street. as a result i am not able to state precisely the rental which lee oswald paid for the above apartment, but my recollection is quite clear that it was $ . a month. . the utilities in the apartment are in my name and are not changed with the movement of tenants through the apartment. the tenants are, however, responsible for the payment of the utility bills. whenever i receive a bill in respect to any of the apartments i forward it to the tenants for payment. i recall that the utilities in the apartment at mercedes averaged about $ . a month during the time that it was occupied by the oswalds. to the best of my knowledge oswald paid those utility bills directly. . i recall that when oswald rented the apartment he gave me the impression he would have no difficulty in handling the arrangements for the payment of the utilities and other incidental arrangements that had to be made in connection with his occupancy of the apartment. . to the best of my recollection oswald did not have a telephone in the apartment. . either at the time that oswald rented the apartment or shortly thereafter, he asked me to install new curtains in the apartment, which i agreed to do. while i had no difficulty with oswald in this connection he was quite definite in stating that he wanted the new curtains installed. . i subsequently called at the apartment to consult with oswald or his wife concerning the color of the drapes or curtains to be installed in the apartment. oswald was not present at the time and when i attempted to discuss the matter with his wife i could obtain no response from her. it appeared to me at the time that she was not interested in having the new curtains. subsequently i have learned that marina oswald had a limited command of the english language and it now appears to me in fact that she simply did not understand what i was talking about. . oswald never mentioned the new drapes or curtains after that time and they were never installed in the apartment while he lived there. . i do recall that when oswald asked about the curtains i told him that i would be willing to install them if he was planning to stay in the apartment for some period of time. i mentioned this because, as i have said, there was quite a high rate of turnover amongst the tenants because of the nature of the housing, which was of a low-income type, and i did not want to put new curtains in and then have oswald move out shortly thereafter. oswald told me that he had a job with a welding company nearby and was planning to stay in the apartment for some time. . my own business office is located near the apartment at mercedes street and i recall seeing oswald walk to work from the apartment. to the best of my knowledge oswald did not have a car while he lived in the above apartment. . oswald appeared to spend a considerable amount of time reading. from time to time i observed him doing that on the steps of the apartment and he was usually reading when i called at the apartment for the rent payment. . when oswald moved out sometime early in october he owed some rent and had not completely paid for the utilities which he used. i do not recall exactly what the amount was but it was not very large. . the oswalds left the apartment in good clean condition. . i do not know where oswald moved after he left the apartment at mercedes street and i do not know where he lived prior to the time he moved there. there was no adverse condition in the relations between oswald and myself which could have prompted oswald to leave the apartment. signed on may , , at fort worth, tex. (s) chester allen riggs, jr., chester allen riggs, jr. testimony of mrs. mahlon f. tobias the testimony of mrs. mahlon f. tobias was taken at p.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. albert e. jenner, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. jenner. mrs. tobias, would you rise and take the oath? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give before this commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mrs. tobias. i do. mr. jenner. you are mrs. m. f. tobias? mrs. tobias. that's right. mr. jenner. of elsbeth? mrs. tobias. that's right. mr. jenner. dallas, tex. mrs. tobias. that's right. mr. jenner. what does that "m" stand for? mrs. tobias. mahlon [spelling] m-a-h-l-o-n, and the "f" is forrest [spelling] f-o-r-r-e-s-t. mr. jenner. mrs. tobias, i am albert e. jenner, jr., a member of the legal staff of the president's commission. my file indicates that you and mr. tobias received a letter from mr. rankin, the general counsel of this commission? mrs. tobias. yes; we did. mr. jenner. with which was enclosed a copy of the senate joint resolution authorizing the creation of the commission and of president lyndon johnson's executive order creating the commission, and also a copy of the rules and regulations of the commission? mrs. tobias. that's right. mr. jenner. i'm sure you have noted from those documents that the commission is appointed to investigate and look into circumstances surrounding the assassination of our late president, john fitzgerald kennedy? mrs. tobias. that's right. mr. jenner. and this leads us from time to time to seek information and help from people who had some contact here and there with persons who went across the scene, so to speak, the stage--one of whom was lee harvey oswald, and we understand that in the ordinary course of your own life you had some contact with him--you and mr. tobias. mrs. tobias. with mr. oswald--that's right. we are managers of the apartment house--that's right. mr. jenner. and we would like to ask you a few questions about that, if i may? mrs. tobias. okay; i will be glad to help you all i can. mr. jenner. that is wonderful and i appreciate that very much. would you give me just a little bit of your history? mrs. tobias. my history--what do you mean? mr. jenner. are you a native american, and where were you born and so forth? mrs. tobias. yes; i was born in arkansas. i have lived in dallas, tex., years, but i have been all over the united states. i raised my family in michigan. i married in michigan. mr. jenner. what town in michigan? mrs. tobias. battle creek--my husband is from michigan and i went there as a bride and i raised my family in michigan, and we have been back here years. we have been in dallas--back in dallas about years--well, we have been back about years, but in dallas, tex., you mean, for years. mr. jenner. your husband is retired now? mrs. tobias. yes; my husband was in construction and during the war he worked for the government. we were just all over, but, of course, he broke his back--it will be years ago in august, and he worked up until years ago, so he had to give up years ago, and he is on social security, of course, and that's why we manage these apartments. mr. jenner. and you have been primarily a mother raising a brood of five boys and a housewife and also help your husband manage some apartments? mrs. tobias. that's right. mr. jenner. and in connection with the management of the apartments, is that how you had your contact with mr. oswald? mrs. tobias. with mr. oswald--that's right--he had one of the apartments. mr. jenner. located where? mrs. tobias. now, he was in -- and --just like--this is over here and is down here and there is one down and one up. mr. oswald lived in and we live over here in and it faces elsbeth. do you want a description of it? mr. jenner. let me get a piece of paper and let's draw a picture of it so i can orient myself. mrs. tobias. are you familiar with those apartments? mr. jenner. no; i'm not, i don't know a thing about them. mrs. tobias. we'll say now that this is elsbeth--this side runs down like this and then across. mr. jenner. which is north and which is south? mrs. tobias. let's see--this is west. mr. jenner. put a "w" there. mrs. tobias. let me see now, i want to make sure--there is west davis, but we are just on the corner of west davis and elsbeth, you see, that would be west, wouldn't it, still--i don't know my directions. mr. jenner. all right, we will do it this way--is this elsbeth [referring to map drawn by the witness]? mrs. tobias. this is elsbeth. mr. jenner. all right, write elsbeth in there. mrs. tobias. all right. [spelling] e-l-s-b-e-t-h, and this is--elsbeth and that side over here is davis. mr. jenner. now, where is davis street? mrs. tobias. this would be davis right there. mr. jenner. why don't you draw a line there for davis? mrs. tobias. there's one apartment down and one up over that one--this would be davis over here. mr. jenner. all right, write "davis" there. mrs. tobias. all right--right here is davis. now, davis faces west, so what would this direction be--this is direct west and east--davis is. mr. jenner. davis runs east and west? mrs. tobias. yes--east and west--and let me see--elsbeth would be north and south, wouldn't it? mr. jenner. that's right. all right, let's put the directions on here--put an "n" up here and an "s" down at the bottom. mrs. tobias. all right; i will put an "n" and an "s" down here. mr. jenner. and then put an "e" for east and a "w" to your right for west, and the "e" is to your left. mrs. tobias. okay. mr. jenner. now, how many apartments do you have in this building? mrs. tobias. ten. mr. jenner. there are apartments? mrs. tobias. yes. mr. jenner. and what are they--two-room, three-room, four-room? mrs. tobias. three. mr. jenner. they are a three-room apartment and they are all three-room apartments? mrs. tobias. all three room. mr. jenner. and you and mr. tobias occupy one? mrs. tobias. yes; we do--we have apartment over here on davis. you see, we live on davis and this is davis, like i drew it out here, you see, and we live on davis. he lived over here--he lived over here at , and do you want me to put there? mr. jenner. yes; put there--is it davis? mrs. tobias. no; it's elsbeth, but--shall i mark that out--this side is over here, and this is over here. mr. jenner. all right, put the right under the apartment no. . mrs. tobias. do you want me to strike over that? mr. jenner. no; no, you are fine-- is an entrance into apartment , is that right? mrs. tobias. that's correct. mr. jenner. and they occupied apartment ? mrs. tobias. they had no. right on the front. mr. jenner. they had two apartments? mrs. tobias. no; no. . mr. jenner. all right, no. , right on the front. mrs. tobias. right on the front. mr. jenner. that's elsbeth street, and is that the first floor or the second floor? mrs. tobias. first--apartment is downstairs and ours is the same across the front on the ground. mr. jenner. is yours on the first floor also? mrs. tobias. yes. mr. jenner. how many floors in this building? mrs. tobias. two floors--this one has one down and one up--you see, one comes down like this and one is up like this. mr. jenner. what do you mean "one down and one up"? mrs. tobias. well, you see, up over these now, this is a -story building. mr. jenner. there are apartments above each of the apartments nos. and ? mrs. tobias. that's right. mr. jenner. that is not true at the opposite end, the west end? mrs. tobias. here, you mean? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. tobias. this one right here is no. and over it is no. . do you know what i am talking about? mr. jenner. well, i will figure it out in a minute. i take it the entrances to the apartment building are on elsbeth street? mrs. tobias. yes. mr. jenner. and there are some apartments in the rear that go all the way through, do they? mrs. tobias. we have a back entrance and a front entrance. now, my back entrance goes out on davis and my front entrance comes out into this patio, and also would mr. oswald's come out into the patio. mr. jenner. now, i am interested in that. mrs. tobias. he has two entrances, remember now, that he could use. mr. jenner. i'll tell you what we will do--i'm going to mark this "tobias." may the record show that mrs. tobias has been drawing a plat of the apartment building on elsbeth street which i have now marked "tobias--no. ." mrs. tobias. yes--okay. mr. jenner. now, she has drawn a rectangle, and the north side is davis street, the east side of the rectangle is elsbeth street. now, mrs. tobias, you correct me if i am wrong. mrs. tobias. this would be south, wouldn't it--yes--that would be south--he lived on this south side. mr. jenner. mrs. tobias is pointing to the area of the plat which is marked "s" or the side opposite to that which is marked "n." mrs. tobias. yes. mr. jenner. the figure underneath the word "elsbeth" appearing on the east line of the rectangle is the apartment occupied by the oswalds. mrs. tobias. --apartment . mr. jenner. apartment . mrs. tobias. yes. mr. jenner. and that was on the ground floor? mrs. tobias. that's right. mr. jenner. and that's on the southeast corner of the building? mrs. tobias. that's right. mr. jenner. and you live in a similar three-room apartment on the northeast corner of the building? mrs. tobias. yes-- --that's right. mr. jenner. so, we will draw a little square in there, representing those apartments. mrs. tobias. that's right. mr. jenner. now, there are altogether how many apartments in the building? mrs. tobias. ten. mr. jenner. i'm going to write apartments on there. mrs. tobias. all right. mr. jenner. now, those apartments run back from interiors, or one after another, back from elsbeth street. mrs. tobias. that's right. mr. jenner. they have front entrances and rear entrances? mrs. tobias. that's right. mr. jenner. the rear entrance to your apartment is from davis street? mrs. tobias. davis street; that's right. mr. jenner. the rear entrance from the oswald apartment is from where? mrs. tobias. from the driveway, and that would be south, wouldn't it? mr. jenner. there is a driveway that runs along this way [indicating]? mrs. tobias. that's right. mr. jenner. it's a private driveway? mrs. tobias. yes, it is; it's private, it goes to the apartments. mr. jenner. all right, we'll call that "private driveway." mrs. tobias. that's right, and they are not allowed to park, you know, for any length of time--just for moving in and moving out, and here is a back door out here that is into that driveway. mr. jenner. so, his rear entrance was from the driveway? mrs. tobias. that's right. mr. jenner. which i have so marked. mrs. tobias. that's right. mr. jenner. now, you spoke of a court, did you not? mrs. tobias. no, i didn't--i said a patio. mr. jenner. a patio? mrs. tobias. a patio--in between--this side and this side (indicating). mr. jenner. in between the south side and the north side? mrs. tobias. that's right. we call it a patio, you know, there is a front entrance with each having their own and then, of course, we have cement there in that entrance and there's lots of shrubbery. mr. jenner. is this open to the sky? mrs. tobias. no; oh, sure, it's open. these buildings are all solid, what i mean, there is nothing like--what do you call these--a breezeway--there's nothing like that. it's just open in between and , if i am making it clear? mr. jenner. yes, you are. between your apartment on the north side of the building and their apartment on the south side--it is open? mrs. tobias. that is right. mr. jenner. there is no roof over that area? mrs. tobias. no; there isn't. mr. jenner. and you call that a patio? mrs. tobias. well, that's what they call it--i guess that's what it is. i think it is a patio. mr. jenner. well, i'm just trying to locate it. mrs. tobias. that's what it's called--a patio. mr. jenner. of course, i'm not trying to make any comment about it. mrs. tobias. that's what they do call it, though. mr. jenner. all right, we'll call it a patio--does the patio run from where? mrs. tobias. from elsbeth back to this. mr. jenner. all right, we will make that a dotted line--back to the rear of the building, which is the west end of the building, correct? mrs. tobias. right. now, there is no entrance for them to go out here. they got out over here--they come out into the hallway and into , and then, they have a back entrance. this one apartment--there's a back entrance only for that no. --no one else has a private but that no. . mr. jenner. how private is that patio? mrs. tobias. well, it's just an entrance leading out to each house--an entrance. mr. jenner. if a man were in that patio with a firearm or a weapon or a rifle and he were dry sighting--do you know what that is--dry shooting it? mrs. tobias. i think so. mr. jenner. that is, holding it up, not loaded, but practicing the trigger and sighting, and what not, would he be noticed? mrs. tobias. well, it's visible--that's what you meant? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. tobias. there's an awful lot of shrubbery out there in front of our window, the front window, and also--there's just an awful lot of shrubbery. it would be noticeable--sure, if you were up in the front, you would see it, but sad to say, i don't see very much from my front window because it's just loaded with shrubbery and the trees are quite tall--quite high. mr. jenner. now, this patio area which runs the length of the building from elsbeth street back west--that is an open space and it's open right up to the sky? mrs. tobias. that's correct. mr. jenner. during any of the time that the oswalds occupied apartment and were your tenants, did you ever see mr. oswald in the patio area with a weapon? mrs. tobias. no; i never did. mr. jenner. a firearm? mrs. tobias. no; i haven't. mr. jenner. whether in the patio or elsewhere? mrs. tobias. no; i never seen him appear out there--i never seen him with any gun. mr. jenner. did you ever hear that he had one while he was there? mrs. tobias. no; i didn't. i didn't hear that. i suppose we would have been real frightened, but we didn't--he did have an awful lot of trouble with his wife. mr. jenner. now, it is true, then i gather, from that chance remark that you made that if you saw him with a weapon that would have alarmed you? mrs. tobias. i think it would have because he was kind of an odd kind of a person. mr. jenner. now, were you in the office when that apartment was rented, did you have the first contact with him? mrs. tobias. yes; he came in our house. mr. jenner. why don't you tell me about that? mrs. tobias. well, the night he came over to rent the place---- mr. jenner. it was at night? mrs. tobias. in the evening--yes, and then he didn't take it, but he wanted to look around. he asked my husband if he might look around. mr. jenner. your husband was home? mrs. tobias. yes. mr. jenner. and you were home? mrs. tobias. yes. mr. jenner. it was in the evening? mrs. tobias. yes. mr. jenner. was anybody accompanying him? mrs. tobias. no; just oswald, my husband and i. mr. jenner. how was he dressed? mrs. tobias. well, he always seemed to wear slacks and just a t-shirt. mr. jenner. is it your recollection that on this occasion he was so dressed? mrs. tobias. just a jacket and slacks and i just can't remember if he had on a t-shirt or if he had on a sports shirt or a dress shirt that night, but he wanted to see the apartment. my husband took him over, because we don't like to rent the apartments in the evening--we don't have to, but just a lot of times my husband will go ahead and show them, because they said we don't have to after : or o'clock. my husband took him over and showed him the apartment and then he asked my husband if he could look around and my husband said, "sure." mr. jenner. mr. oswald wanted to look around the apartment or look around the building? mrs. tobias. he wanted to look around the building. he wanted to go around the building. so, he looked at the back entrance, the way he could get out the back entrance--now, that back entrance will go out, like i told you, this driveway--it will take you out onto davis. mr. jenner. the back entrance? mrs. tobias. the side entrance--his side entrance, we'll say. mr. jenner. he was looking at the back entrance of his apartment? mrs. tobias. yes, he went all through the back. mr. jenner. his apartment, which came in from the driveway? mrs. tobias. this is a driveway and down here in the hallway is the door. he wanted to see around in the back, he wanted to see the arrangement of the building, and how it was. there is a driveway that comes up off of davis and back in here of the slab that they can park on. of course, mr. oswald never had a car, and it just goes off onto davis, but that is that driveway where i told you--this driveway goes all the way around onto davis. mr. jenner. now, the driveway, which up to the moment i have limited from elsbeth street--it turns and goes out into davis? mrs. tobias. that's right. the driveway completely goes around. mr. jenner. i'm going to mark the west end of the driveway also--is that correct? mrs. tobias. the driveway goes out into davis--that's correct. so, it was a week later before he came back to rent it. mr. jenner. he waited a week? mrs. tobias. yes. mr. jenner. you told him what the cost was? mrs. tobias. yes, my husband told him that. mr. jenner. did he say anything about money at that time--did you make any inquiry as to whether or not he was working, where he worked? mrs. tobias. no; mr. oswald was very quiet. he had very little to say, so when he came back, he told my husband he had a wife and child. mr. jenner. were you present? mrs. tobias. yes, i was there when he rented it. mr. jenner. were you there when he made this statement that he had a wife and child? mrs. tobias. yes, and when they came in--i didn't see anyone for quite some time, perhaps days or weeks, and i said to my husband, "i thought he told us he had a wife and child?" he said, "well, he did." we don't know when he moved in because he could have used that driveway to the back door--you understand what i mean? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. tobias. and then, i suppose it was about weeks and then he got a phone call. mr. jenner. if you will pardon me, i would like to stay with a few of your earlier statements at the moment. mrs. tobias. all right. mr. jenner. when he first came and made the inquiry about the apartment and made this short tour around the place--it was at night? mrs. tobias. when he wanted to see the back door. mr. jenner. was anything said about his prior history then, whether he was married, not married, whether he had children--whether he had been? mrs. tobias. yes, he had a wife and a little girl. that's all we ever learned. we didn't know whether they came from fort worth or anywhere. we didn't know where he came from because he was very quiet mouthed. mr. jenner. didn't you ask about whether he was working? whether he had some money that he could pay the rent with? mrs. tobias. i tell you what--there is a card--the fbi picked the card up sometime ago, but they got to fill this rental card out and he is supposed, my husband slipped up on that, to give reference of where he has last worked and where his business place is, and so all he put on there was service. mr. jenner. meaning military service? mrs. tobias. i don't know--that's all they had--"service". mr. jenner. just the one word "service"? mrs. tobias. just the one word "service" and he signed it and then, of course, he slipped up on that--of course, we didn't have any idea there was anything like this. mr. jenner. of course not. mrs. tobias. like--since that happened, the people that own it have asked my husband to make sure that he examines those cards and then make them give a signature over on the side. all oswald did was just to give his, fill it in like it should have been filled in, and sign it and that's all he put. and they picked that card up some time ago. mr. jenner. the fbi did? mrs. tobias. yes, we had to sign it, my husband and i had to release it. mr. jenner. yes; that's all right. mrs. tobias. they picked that up some time ago and now that's where we slipped up, and that's all we ever knew, and i never knew where he worked. mr. jenner. he moved in in due course? mrs. tobias. yes; he moved in. mr. jenner. about how long after he had made this initial inquiry? mrs. tobias. you mean before he came in? mr. jenner. he came in on what date? mrs. tobias. well, the d of november--here's the books when you get ready for them--he moved in november , . mr. jenner. he moved in the d of november ? mrs. tobias. yes: but let me say--he rented it november --that's the day he paid his first rent and as we said, we never knew when he moved in. mr. jenner. when he paid his rent, that was about a week after this initial incident, was it not? mrs. tobias. no; you mean to look around? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. tobias. he looked around a week before he came back and rented it. mr. jenner. yes; so that he was there november the d and that would be approximately a week--that would make it the th of october? mrs. tobias. when he was there the first time--it would have been, because it was close to a week before he came back. mr. jenner. november would be a saturday and if it was about a week, then the previous occasion was on a saturday. mrs. tobias. when he rented it, you mean? mr. jenner. no; when he first came to talk to you. mrs. tobias. well, i just don't remember--really to tell you the truth. mr. jenner. it was about a week? mrs. tobias. it was--it was a week in between--a week elapsed there before he came back. mr. jenner. did he leave a deposit on that occasion? mrs. tobias. yes; a $ deposit for the key, which we asked to be deposited and he did; you mean on the apartment when he left, when he moved out? mr. jenner. no, no. mrs. tobias. no; he didn't that time. mr. jenner. when he rented the apartment, did he make an advance payment of rent or did he make a deposit? mrs. tobias. no; when he came back the d of november he paid a month's rent and which would have been a $ deposit--$ for the month and the $ deposit. mr. jenner. or $ altogether? mrs. tobias. yes; i thought you meant did he ask for his deposit back--he never. mr. jenner. well, i will get to that in a minute. mrs. tobias. i was getting mixed up--excuse me. mr. jenner. no; you weren't mixed up. they moved in--you don't know when they moved in? mrs. tobias. i honestly don't, and my husband said he didn't either, but they could use that side. mr. jenner. the driveway? mrs. tobias. yes; they could have pulled the car in there. mr. jenner. eventually you became aware that they were in the apartment? mrs. tobias. oh, yes; because after--we got a phone call. i didn't even know she was up there then, because she hadn't started coming out until they got this phone call. do you want me to tell you about that? mr. jenner. was that the first thing that aroused your attention of the fact that they were there? mrs. tobias. of her and the child--no, i had seen oswald, i think, in and out, but he just went real fast, but like i said, mrs. oswald didn't appear. it must have been maybe a week or days before i had seen mrs. oswald. mr. jenner. a week or days after you saw him--after they moved in? mrs. tobias. after he rented that; yes. mr. jenner. he received a telephone call? mrs. tobias. yes; and i answered the phone and they wanted to talk with mr. oswald, and i said, "well, i'm sorry but we don't make it a habit of calling our tenants to the phone." he said, "well, this is very important--i would like to get ahold of mr. oswald." i said, "would you like to give me a number?" he said, "just tell him george called and they will know what you are talking about." mr. jenner. he said, "just tell him george called"? mrs. tobias. yes; and my husband went over and got them--he thought, well maybe he should go get them. mr. jenner. did this man have an accent? mrs. tobias. well, he didn't talk like a southerner, i tell you that, because there's a difference there, isn't there? anyway, when he came--let me tell you this--she came with him and he used the phone. mr. jenner. you advised oswald that a call had been received? mrs. tobias. my husband went and told him. mr. jenner. the man was named george? mrs. tobias. then, he wanted to come back and use the phone. mr. jenner. he did come back and use the phone? mrs. tobias. yes; he came back and wanted to know if he could use the phone. mr. jenner. was anybody with him? mrs. tobias. mrs. oswald came with him. mr. jenner. had you met her before? mrs. tobias. no; i hadn't--that's what i started to tell you. mr. jenner. had your husband? mrs. tobias. no; he said that was the first he had seen of mrs. oswald. mr. jenner. what did she look like? mrs. tobias. i think she was real cute then, of course, she had that pony tail and she wasn't fixed up in those days. mr. jenner. she had a pony tail? mrs. tobias. oh, yes; she had long hair pulled back and she was very plain. i have seen pictures of her now since and she is really different. mr. jenner. she has a different hairdo now? mrs. tobias. yes; she's real cute now. anyway, he talked. mr. jenner. on the telephone? mrs. tobias. yes; and he didn't talk in english at all. mr. jenner. he talked in russian over the telephone? mrs. tobias. i don't know what it was but they never spoke a word of english. mr. jenner. was it your impression that he was calling the man who had called in and asked your husband to tell oswald that george had called? mrs. tobias. he just said to me--i was the one that answered my phone and i sent my husband over with the message and when he came back--when he called he did not talk in english--he never spoke a word in english, he did not, not one--mr. oswald didn't. mr. jenner. you mean on this occasion? mrs. tobias. at this time. mr. jenner. over the telephone? mrs. tobias. over the telephone that very time that my husband went over. mr. jenner. did she say anything? mrs. tobias. she got on the phone later and said something, but she spoke in another, you know, a foreign language. mr. jenner. she also spoke in a foreign language? mrs. tobias. she didn't speak in english, no. well, she went home---- mr. jenner. before we got home with her--were you introduced to her on that occasion? mrs. tobias. he didn't introduce her at all--you mean mrs. oswald? mr. jenner. was mrs. oswald introduced to you? mrs. tobias. no. mr. jenner. did she say anything to you? mrs. tobias. no--i was going to tell you what happened. after she went home, i said, to mr. oswald---- mr. jenner. would you wait a minute? mrs. tobias. sure. mr. jenner. did she say anything to you while she was in your apartment? mrs. tobias. just smiled. mr. jenner. she just smiled? mrs. tobias. that's all--when she came in she just smiled. mr. jenner. did he say, "this is my wife?" mrs. tobias. no; he did not. mr. jenner. he didn't introduce her at all? mrs. tobias. they just wanted to use the phone. mr. jenner. she was neatly dressed? mrs. tobias. yes. mr. jenner. and she was a nice young lady and you had a good impression of her? mrs. tobias. she was always very nice. mr. jenner. all right. now, you go ahead. mrs. tobias. well, she went back home and i had visions that she went to see about the youngster. mr. jenner. she went back to the apartment and he stayed? mrs. tobias. yes--i said to him, "what nationality are you folks?" because i knew he had talked to us in english. he said, "oh, we are czech." mr. jenner. he said they were czech? mrs. tobias. yes; so that's all i got out of him that night--just czech and when she came back she smiled again real cute and nice, but she never ever, ever made any effort to talk around him whatsoever, and that's what i found out that night. mr. jenner. and during all the time they were tenants in the apartment at elsbeth, did she ever use english at all in his presence while you were present? mrs. tobias. not to my knowledge--no, but when she came back--he called--he made another call and it was the same thing. mr. jenner. he spoke in a foreign tongue? mrs. tobias. yes; he did. mr. jenner. on the second occasion? mrs. tobias. yes--he didn't use english. mr. jenner. did she speak to that person also? mrs. tobias. well, if it's the one that called, she did, she talked for a second. mr. jenner. you have told me that she talked at the time of the first telephone call? mrs. tobias. yes--no; not the second time, i don't think she talked the second time. mr. jenner. now, i'll ask you some technical things--was he a good tenant in the sense that he paid his rent? mrs. tobias. yes; he paid his rent in advance. mr. jenner. did he pay it promptly? mrs. tobias. yes; now, you'll have to look here--my husband has got all that marked--later you can see that, but the last month---- mr. jenner. which was when? mr. tobias. it would have been--he paid--he moved in november--december, january, february, and he stayed until march the d. mr. jenner. march the d, ? mrs. tobias. that's right and then he lacked, i think, $ because i have heard him check it so many times. mr. jenner. he lacked $ ? mrs. tobias. i think that is what it is--i would have to look in here. my husband has it marked. mr. jenner. go ahead and look. when you say you are looking in here--you are looking in your records of receipts? mrs. tobias. yes. mr. jenner. that's your original record? mrs. tobias. yes; this is the first one. mr. jenner. excuse me--may i ask you a few questions about that--you keep a record of all receipts? mrs. tobias. oh, yes; we have one--they get one and the owner gets one. mr. jenner. when a rent payment is made, you make an entry in the book you have before you of having received a certain amount of money. it's in duplicate or triplicate--the tenant gets a copy of the receipt, you retain one in your book and you send one to the owners of the building? mrs. tobias. well, she gets the name of it and i think this is the other one--my husband has it marked here, so that every time they would come out they would have a lot of trouble looking and let me see, now--yes, he paid--he lacked $ --the balance. mr. jenner. explain to me what you mean by his lacking a balance? mrs. tobias. well, he paid the $ when he came at the regular date, and then the th--that would be the d and the th he came back and paid the other $ and here is the beginning--if you would like to check them. mr. jenner. i take it, then, is what you mean is that for the month of february, he paid first $ ? mrs. tobias. yes--right. mr. jenner. so, he was $ in arrears at that time? mrs. tobias. yes. mr. jenner. and he made that up--he paid the $ at a later date? mrs. tobias. yes; that's the receipt there. mr. jenner. in fact, on the th of february ? mrs. tobias. that's right. mr. jenner. that's receipt number , which i have before me, is the receipt which you gave for that final payment--the second installment? mrs. tobias. yes, sir; that's right. mr. jenner. now, you have the initial receipt, do you? mrs. tobias. the beginning--you mean? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. tobias. yes; here's where--when he moved in up here. mr. jenner. and that is receipt number , it is dated november , , and it recites that it was received from lee oswald--the amount of $ , and that's the deposit? mrs. tobias. yes; that's the deposit. mr. jenner. on number --that means apartment number at that entrance-- ? mrs. tobias. that's right. mr. jenner. then, i see here a second receipt dated the same date number , in the sum of $ , apartment , marked "void." what was the circumstance on that receipt being marked "void?" mrs. tobias. let me see--then you have another one? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. tobias. my husband perhaps thought he was going to be paid by the week and that's why he voided that one. mr. jenner. and that was voided on the same occasion? mrs. tobias. yes--a lot of them pay by the week, you see? mr. jenner. ascertaining that he was going to pay by the month, a third receipt was made out, number in the name of l. h. oswald for $ ? mrs. tobias. yes. mr. jenner. so, at this moment, he has now paid $ plus $ deposit? mrs. tobias. that's correct. mr. jenner. so, his payment is altogether $ ? mrs. tobias. that's right. mr. jenner. and the $ deposit is for what? mrs. tobias. well, that's the key deposit. mr. jenner. and when the tenant surrenders the key, he gets his $ back? mrs. tobias. well, if they leave the apartment clean or half way decent, she will refund it. mr. jenner. now, in your record here that you keep, this is kept in the usual, regular and ordinary course of business? mrs. tobias. you mean--my husband keeps this--we keep these books. mr. jenner. you keep these books regularly? mrs. tobias. yes. mr. jenner. and they are your permanent records? mrs. tobias. that's right--we have them from the time we moved in. mr. jenner. and these entries are all true and correct? mrs. tobias. that's correct. mr. jenner. and they are entries of receipts of rental payments for your tenants, including mr. oswald? mrs. tobias. that's correct. mr. jenner. the first of those payments consists of the ones i have recited on the d of november , and the last of which was the $ payment on february , ? mrs. tobias. that's correct--that's the last one. mr. jenner. that paid his rent for the month of march? mrs. tobias. through the d or to the d. mr. jenner. it paid it for the month of february and to and including the d day of march ? mrs. tobias. yes. mr. jenner. did he vacate the premises on the d of march? mrs. tobias. yes; he did. he moved out and that was on a sunday that he moved out and we note when he moved out. mr. jenner. go right ahead. mrs. tobias. they moved on this baby stroller. we thought that was so funny, because they just--now, you see, you perhaps have already talked to these people where they moved over on neely. mr. jenner. they moved to where from your place? mrs. tobias. on neely--like this is elsbeth, right down here on the corner---- mr. jenner. excuse me, why don't we use our little plat here, tobias exhibit no. ? mrs. tobias. this is his apartment--right down here on neely street. mr. jenner. on what street? mrs. tobias. on neely--now, this is elsbeth. mr. jenner. and neely also runs north and south? mrs. tobias. yes--no; wait a minute, it runs east and west. well, it's right behind an apartment building on elsbeth, just one building behind that apartment building on elsbeth. mr. jenner. about how far away from where you are? mrs. tobias. oh, it wouldn't be a block, it wouldn't be a good block--probably about half a block. mr. jenner. was there any conversation with you or your husband as to why they were moving? mrs. tobias. may i tell you? mr. jenner. yes; please do. mrs. tobias. well, they fought so much. mr. jenner. they fought so much. mrs. tobias. yes--they seemed to disagree and they didn't get along so good and the tenants would come and tell my husband that they kept them awake and the baby cried so much and that he could hear them falling down as if mrs. oswald was hitting the floor, so my husband went over and he said he was sorry but there was nothing going on and that everything was okay and we had one tenant over him--nobody has been able to contact her either--and she came over, and she said, "mr. tobias, i think he has made a new opening down there." she said, "i think he's put her right through there." and he did break a window--my husband had to fix that. mr. jenner. this was a pane of glass in the back door? mrs. tobias. in there--going out into the hall, out of their back kitchen, going into that little hall going outside. mr. jenner. your husband ascertained what? mrs. tobias. he had to put in a new pane. mr. jenner. why? mrs. tobias. well, they knocked it out--i guess from fighting--we don't know. mr. jenner. you weren't there? mrs. tobias. no. mr. jenner. and your husband wasn't there? mrs. tobias. they had come after us---- mr. jenner. you mean the tenants had come after you? mrs. tobias. oh, yes; they said they could hear glass falling and evidently they had put a baby blanket there--a baby blanket was all over it, tacked down over the window. mr. jenner. the pane of glass in the door was broken and they had tacked a baby blanket over the broken glass? mrs. tobias. yes, all the way around it--they had quite a large blanket and they put that around it, so my husband told them if they didn't straighten up or, you know, they were so annoying that the other people had to rest too, that he was sorry but they would have to find another place. mr. jenner. and it was shortly after that that they left? mrs. tobias. yes; shortly after that they moved in over on neely. mr. jenner. during this period that they lived there from the d of november , to the d of march , did you become better acquainted with mrs. oswald? mrs. tobias. yes. now, mrs. oswald would come in my house quite frequently. mr. jenner. she would? mrs. tobias. yes; she seemed very lonesome, and she would be standing out in the patio we were talking about, and right up at my walkway into the hallway, and i asked her if she didn't want to come in and she would say "yes," and so she and the baby came in, but she always would just smile. mr. jenner. did she speak with you? mrs. tobias. well, i was going to tell you--the first time she came in i said, "your husband says you are czech," and she began to shake her head--no. mr. jenner. she shook her head in the negative? mrs. tobias. she said, "no," and then she told me that. mr. jenner. what did she say? mrs. tobias. she said she was russian. mr. jenner. she said that in russian? mrs. tobias. no; she said that in english, but she said, "my husband said it was bad and my husband told me if i said i was russian people would be mean to me." mr. jenner. she made it known to you with her limited command of english--she said what you have now related? mrs. tobias. oh--yes; she said it. i understood her real well. mr. jenner. you did? mrs. tobias. and she said, "my husband thinks people will be mean to me," and i said, "nobody will be mean to you," and i said, "you are always welcome to come into my house." i am always nice to the tenants, but i don't run back and forth, but i try to be nice to them. a lot of them do seem lonesome when they come in. she came in lots of afternoons and would just set this little girl down on the floor and she was months old when they moved in there and she would crawl around over on the rug and she would stay in there sometimes an hour, and she did that lots of afternoons--just lots of afternoons she would come up. mr. jenner. and during that--with all of this period of time, you had many opportunities to observe her? mrs. tobias. yes; and then she came in the evening and wanted to know if she could use the phone. she said, "i don't know where my husband is." she told me that. mr. jenner. about when was that? mrs. tobias. well, that was just maybe a short time before they moved out of there--that could have been a short time, because they weren't there too much longer after that. it was in the evening and i had such a hard time talking to her myself, it seemed to be harder for her to grasp or to understand english than it was for me to her, so i said to her, "mrs. oswald, marina, can you read english?" she said "yes"--and i went and got a tablet of paper. mr. jenner. you got a tablet? mrs. tobias. yes; i did. i went over to the desk and i got a tablet and on this sheet of paper, you know, i took a pencil and i put on there, "when he gets home give him a good kick in the shin." and she just started laughing. she read that--she could read that, and she read that, and she thought that was real funny, and she said she would, so she came back the second time. mr. jenner. that evening? mrs. tobias. yes--she never did find him. she called--she must have called lots of places, but, of course, spoke not in english. mr. jenner. when she made these telephone calls, she always spoke in the foreign language? mrs. tobias. she never spoke in english. mr. jenner. you never heard her use english over the telephone? mrs. tobias. no; only when she would try to talk to me and i would see mrs. oswald every day. she would have a handwashing, you know, and there were lines in the back. mr. jenner. what kind of housekeeper was she? mrs. tobias. well, i never was in there but once, and i'll tell you why i was in there then--this fellow came over and he said to my husband, "i think that he's really hurt her this time." mr. jenner. now, this was another tenant? mrs. tobias. a tenant--yes, and we didn't hear her and i didn't see her out at the clothesline, and my husband said, "why don't you and i go over and rap on the door and see if she will come to the door and see if she's okay." he said, "we can tell her that the sweeper is over here--she hasn't found the sweeper--she doesn't know anything about it." mr. jenner. that would be the sweeper to use in the apartments? mrs. tobias. a vacuum sweeper. mr. jenner. i take it this was sometime in ? mrs. tobias. yes; because that could have been sometime in december, but i just don't have no dates. that's the worst part of it. if we had had any idea--but anyway, she came to the door and she had her housecoat on and she had marks on her face. mr. jenner. where--what portion--the left cheek or the right cheek? mrs. tobias. it would be like this [indicating]. mr. jenner. that's her right cheek? mrs. tobias. yes; she was facing me. mr. jenner. up near her eye? mrs. tobias. yes. and her eye was dark and we told her that--we spoke to her. mr. jenner. what did she say? mrs. tobias. we told her what we had come for, that over in the other building in the closets there was this vacuum cleaner and if she ever wanted to use it, she could come over and my husband told her--he said, "if you don't know where it is, come to my door and i will show you." mr. jenner. did she understand what you were saying? mrs. tobias. yes, she did. she understood--we made her understand, so i don't know when they came for the sweeper, but they always would come together and get that sweeper--you could hear them in the hall--they were right at my door. he would always come with her when she come to get the sweeper. he never seemed to want that woman to be out of his sight when he was around, but that's the only marks. now, she seemed to be okay and i just looked in her door--i never was in her house. mr. jenner. how did you find her apartment on that look in? mrs. tobias. my husband doesn't clean--he said it wasn't very clean. mr. jenner. it was not? mrs. tobias. not too clean, my husband said it wasn't too clean. mr. jenner. and was there anything out of the ordinary? i assume tenants leave your premises and the apartments are not too clean, and this is not an extraordinary experience, is it? mrs. tobias. well, it's just not picked up and cleaned up and swept up like it should be. we require them to use the vacuum and leave it like they find it. mr. jenner. but there was nothing in the way of broken furniture or gouged out walls? mrs. tobias. no, just that door. mr. jenner. just the pane in the door? mrs. tobias. yes; that pane in the back door had to be replaced. mr. jenner. did this man drive an automobile? mrs. tobias. no, he didn't own one while he was there? mr. jenner. did he drive one? mrs. tobias. no; i never seen him with one. mr. jenner. you never saw him drive one in your life? mrs. tobias. no; i never saw him drive an automobile in my life. he was always walking when i've seen him and they would go for a walk and maybe for groceries, and she would always be carrying that baby. he never carried that baby. she would always carry that child. that baby was real frightened. now, my husband is just real fond of children and they take up with my husband real easy, but this child was always too frightened and it always seemed to be so frightened and never seemed to want anyone near it. it always seemed to be such a frightened child. mr. jenner. did mrs. oswald occupy this apartment with her husband during all the period, november , , to and including march , ? mrs. tobias. well--do you want me to tell you something that happened? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. tobias. we had gone out for a ride on a sunday afternoon and when we came back, there was a car in the driveway. mr. jenner. excuse me, this is mr. davis from the state of texas attorney general's office. mr. davis. how are you--nice to see you. mrs. tobias. okay. mr. jenner. now, go right ahead. mrs. tobias. well, when we came up---- mr. jenner. this was on sunday? mrs. tobias. sunday afternoon. mr. jenner. how long after they moved in? mrs. tobias. well, i just don't know--but that's what i told those gentlemen, but it was before my husband was in that accident, i know. mr. jenner. and your husband was in the accident when? mrs. tobias. the th. mr. jenner. of what month? mrs. tobias. of november--the same month he moved in, because we still was driving our car, and our car was wrecked. mr. jenner. so, this occurred to the best of your recollection shortly before the accident? mrs. tobias. well, it would occur between the d and the th, because my husband had his accident on the th. mr. jenner. well, that's over weeks--was it at the tail end of the three weeks or the forepart of it? mrs. tobias. i don't remember that--i really don't. mr. jenner. they had been in the apartment for awhile? mrs. tobias. yes, and here is elsbeth and we parked here---- mr. jenner. the witness is again referring to the tobias exhibit no. . mrs. tobias. we parked here. mr. jenner. you parked on elsbeth street? mrs. tobias. yes, we don't have garages, so we just parked around over here, and over here in this driveway was this big convertible. mr. jenner. there was a convertible in the driveway which is located to the rear of the oswald apartment--you saw a convertible--what kind was it--are you familiar with automobiles? mrs. tobias. well, i don't drive--my husband and i have a different opinion on that, too. mr. jenner. did your husband see it on that occasion? mrs. tobias. well he did--he said he had seen it, but i thought it was a light car, a cream color. mr. jenner. a cream-colored car? mrs. tobias. i thought it was. mr. jenner. was it a sedan, two-door or four-door? mrs. tobias. it was a convertible is what it was with the top back--the top was back and there was a baby bed in that convertible and then there was some clothing in there, and when we stopped up there, i said to my husband, "i think someone is moving out." now, he went over home--i thought he did and i said, "i think i'll go over and check." mr. jenner. did you do so? mrs. tobias. i walked in the hallway and as i walked in the hallway a fellow came out---- mr. jenner. what did he look like? mrs. tobias. well, my husband and i have a different opinion on that. mr. jenner. i just want your view. mrs. tobias. well, he was a pretty-good-sized fellow--he was larger than oswald. mr. jenner. a big man? mrs. tobias. he was larger than oswald. mr. jenner. what would you say he weighed? mrs. tobias. well, i'm poor judging that, too. mr. jenner. well, i'm going to stand up. i'm foot inches and i weigh about pounds. mrs. tobias. well, he could have been a little heavier than you. mr. jenner. a little taller? mrs. tobias. he could have been a little taller and a little heavier. mr. jenner. as tall as foot ? mrs. tobias. i doubt if he was--you are how much-- what? mr. jenner. i am feet inches--one inch shorter than feet. mrs. tobias. well, he could have been right around there. mr. jenner. but heavier than i am? mrs. tobias. well, i believe he was heavier than you. mr. jenner. what color hair did he have? mrs. tobias. well, he had dark hair--kind of brown, i guess, and when i walked in the hallway, he walked out. i said, "what's coming off?" he said, "mrs. oswald is going away for awhile--or moving out" or something like that--that's the way he said it. mr. jenner. how old was this man? mrs. tobias. gee, i don't know. mr. jenner. what is your judgment? mrs. tobias. well, perhaps -- i would say or even in his late fifties. mr. jenner. well, and late fifties is a big difference. mrs. tobias. well, maybe he was a little over and maybe he was right around --he wasn't an old man. mr. jenner. he was more or less? mrs. tobias. yes--it would have been--that's what i thought. mr. jenner. all right. how was he dressed? mrs. tobias. with a brown--he had on a brown suit. mr. jenner. was he neatly dressed? mrs. tobias. yes; he was. mr. jenner. he didn't have slacks on? mrs. tobias. well, i think that was a suit--i think that was a suit. mr. jenner. he didn't wear shorts? mrs. tobias. oh, no. mr. jenner. how did he act? mrs. tobias. well, what he said--he walked out in the hallway, and i said, "what's coming off?" because i knew somebody was moving so, i didn't see mrs. oswald at all, now, but oswald walked out the door and this fellow walked out in the hall and he was the one that met me and he said, "well, mrs. oswald is going away for awhile--moving out for awhile." mr. jenner. did he say anything about whether mr. oswald was going to remain? mrs. tobias. that's all that was said and i went on home. mr. jenner. did you see her? mrs. tobias. no, i didn't see mrs. oswald at all, and i don't know when they moved out. mr. jenner. did they all move out or just marina? mrs. tobias. that's all he said--he just said, "mrs. oswald is going away for awhile or moving out for awhile." mr. jenner. did it come to your attention that she had moved? mrs. tobias. i didn't see her around--that's true, i didn't see her around. mr. jenner. did you see him around, that is, mr. oswald? mrs. tobias. no; because i think he used that back entrance because--i really do think he must have used that back entrance because you didn't see him much, not even when mrs. oswald was there, only when you see them go out together. mr. jenner. now, this was in the month of november? mrs. tobias. it would have to have been. mr. jenner. and it was something up to november --did he pay his rent for the month of december? mrs. tobias. oh, yes; it's all here. mr. jenner. all right; let's look at it. mrs. tobias. which one do we have now--which one is this? mr. jenner. that's november. mrs. tobias. well, you want all the way down--don't you? mr. jenner. give me the next one--that would be december--maybe i can help you with this. mrs. tobias. this is the deposit and the rent there. mr. jenner. this is the initial payment--now, i will look for december. mrs. tobias. all right, here it is--starting here. mr. jenner. you have a receipt no. in your book of original receipts here, dated december , , reciting, "received from l. h. oswald--$ for rental of apartment no. , from december , , to january , . paid in cash. signed by mrs. m. f. tobias, sr." mrs. tobias. that's when i had to take over. mr. jenner. that's your signature? mrs. tobias. that is right--after my husband was sick. mr. jenner. did he pay that to you in cash? mrs. tobias. yes; he did--he never gave checks. mr. jenner. and he handed it to your personally, so you knew on that occasion, which was the th of december , that he was there? mrs. tobias. oh, yes. mr. jenner. and he was paying his rent for the month of december? mrs. tobias. yes. mr. jenner. was mrs. oswald still absent? mrs. tobias. now, i don't know how long she was gone. now, we really don't--my husband said he didn't--he didn't see her around. mr. jenner. what is your recollection as to when you first saw her? mrs. tobias. after she came back? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. tobias. well, it could have been another week or days. mr. jenner. so that would be in the month of december --she was absent a week or days? mrs. tobias. she would have had to been because i didn't see her around, and they always kept their blinds down, you know, the shades was always pulled. mr. jenner. they were? mrs. tobias. oh, yes--day and night, you never seen any shades up over there, their shades was always down. mr. jenner. wasn't that strange? mrs. tobias. well, a lot of my tenants do--we don't think nothing about it. we've got so many of them that keeps them down. i always think there must be something wrong when they keep them down, but we don't bother our tenants. mr. jenner. now, he paid his rent for the month of january , did he not, and he paid it to you? mrs. tobias. if it's on there. mr. jenner. well, there is a receipt here no. , dated january , , "issued to l. h. oswald for $ for the rent of apartment no. from january , , to and including february , ," and it is signed m. f. tobias, sr. mrs. tobias. well, now, he signed that one. mr. jenner. is that his signature or yours? mrs. tobias. no; that's his--that's his. mr. jenner. that rent was paid in cash, was it? mrs. tobias. yes; he gave cash. mr. jenner. to him; to your husband? mrs. tobias. yes; he always gave cash. mr. jenner. and as of that time she was back in the apartment? mrs. tobias. oh, yes; she was--you see this was later after she had come back and when she got friendly and would come over, and she would come over nearly every afternoon later, but she didn't come around--i didn't see her so much when they first moved in. you see, i told you, when they first moved in, i said to my husband, "i thought this was the man with the wife and child?" he said, "yes, he told me that", but perhaps she wasn't around at the beginning for awhile. mr. jenner. did they have any guests, any callers? mrs. tobias. well, one lady came to my door one evening. mr. jenner. about when? mrs. tobias. in the evening--you mean? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. tobias. it was beginning to get dark. mr. jenner. when was it--was it the evening of the weekday or weekend? mrs. tobias. yes; it must have been a weekday because she said she had had a call. she came to my door and knocked. mr. jenner. the lady did? mrs. tobias. yes. mr. jenner. and what month was it. mrs. tobias. i don't even know that. she said she had been trying to contact mrs. oswald. mr. jenner. describe her please--age, weight--short or tall. mrs. tobias. well, i let her come in, i was going to tell you, and she was, oh, a dark lady. she said she was russian. i talked to her awhile. mr. jenner. was she dark-skinned or light-skinned? mrs. tobias. well, she wasn't a blonde, she was a brunette--she was a real nice looking woman. mr. jenner. she was white-skinned, however? mrs. tobias. oh, yes. mr. jenner. about how old? mrs. tobias. oh, perhaps and maybe a little older. mr. jenner. how tall was she? mrs. tobias. oh, about foot or foot inches. mr. jenner. and what did you judge she weighed? mrs. tobias. well, she had a coat on--i don't know--i just don't really know. she wasn't real large but she wasn't real small and she said mrs. oswald had called her earlier in the day and said that the baby was sick and she didn't have any money to take the baby to the doctor, and she couldn't get them to the door, she sat in there and talked to us a while and my husband says he just doesn't remember this--this was after he had his accident, because his memory was pretty bad after he had had this accident and i asked her if she would like to have me go over with her and see if we could get in, and she said, "i would, because i rang the doorbell and i rang the doorbell, and i can't get them to the door." and, i said, "okay, i'll go over with you." i didn't rap on the door, i just kept ringing the doorbell. well, now, he didn't come out the front door. mr. jenner. which door were you rapping on? the rear or the front door? mrs. tobias. i was ringing in the hallway, the front--i didn't rap on the door--i just rang the doorbell. we have doorbells. now, he didn't come out in the hall entrance, he came around. mr. jenner. who did? mrs. tobias. mr. oswald. mr. jenner. he came around from the back? mrs. tobias. yes; he came out of the back door and around and jumped in the hall, and i said, "mr. oswald, this lady is trying to find you people. you didn't answer." he said, "oh, i'll take care of it." and he ushered her right inside and that's the last i seen. mr. jenner. did she recognize him? mrs. tobias. i guess she did, because he just took her--they had nothing to say to each other in the hall. he just said, "oh, i'll take care of it." mr. jenner. no words passed between them? mrs. tobias. no; he just came from around. mr. jenner. when she came to your place, did she identify herself as--who she was and where she worked--did she work in the dallas area? mrs. tobias. she worked downtown in an office. mr. jenner. she said she worked downtown in an office? mrs. tobias. yes; and she said she was going to see if she could help. mr. jenner. did you ever see that lady again? mrs. tobias. i never seen her again and then, as i say, i seen a blonde-headed girl come there. mr. jenner. was this later? mrs. tobias. this was after she was there and she wanted to know which apartment, and i showed her, and that's all i ever seen of her. mr. jenner. describe that lady, please; she was a blonde? mrs. tobias. well, she was pretty slim. mr. jenner. she was slender, was she? mrs. tobias. yes; she was kind of thin. mr. jenner. how tall was she? mrs. tobias. oh, perhaps foot or foot --maybe inches. mr. jenner. not as tall as the first lady you described? mrs. tobias. well, they could have been somewhere near the same height, but she was a different type. mr. jenner. she was a different type person? mrs. tobias. yes; she was a blonde. mr. jenner. did she identify herself? mrs. tobias. no; she just asked which apartment mr. oswald lived in and i showed her and that's all i knew about it. mr. jenner. did she speak english? mrs. tobias. yes; she did--she talked to me in english. mr. jenner. about when was that, with respect to the other incident you have described? mrs. tobias. you mean between the two of them? mr. jenner. yes. mrs. tobias. well, i don't know whether it was a week later or weeks later, i just don't know. just like i said, that if we had had any idea about all this, we might have put down dates. mr. jenner. oh, sure. mrs. tobias. but i don't--i really don't know. when they don't find the party, they usually come to the manager, you see, and we try to help them if we can. mr. jenner. now, going back to these conversations you had with mrs. oswald about her being russian, was there an occasion when she talked to you about the fact that her husband didn't want people to know that she spoke russian? mrs. tobias. she didn't say "speak". she said, "he doesn't want me to tell that i am russian." mr. jenner. why? mrs. tobias. she said, "because people would be mean to me,"--she said they wouldn't be nice to her and they would be mean to her, and that was all said about that. mr. jenner. you reassured her? mrs. tobias. well, i told her i didn't think that was true. i said, "i don't think that's true. i don't think anyone would be mean to you because i don't know why anyone should be." i don't. mr. jenner. did she say anything about her husband saying that he didn't want it known that they spoke russian or that she was russian, because men would come around? mrs. tobias. no, no; that was the only occasion--the only time that ever anything was spoken. she was pretty quiet herself. mr. jenner. did they make any long distance calls? mrs. tobias. no; they didn't on our phone. they asked us--these were all local, but they were very quiet people. they seemed to stay to themselves, that is, they didn't mix with no tenants and the tenants said they never even cared to speak with them. they never seemed to want to speak. mr. jenner. that is the oswalds? mrs. tobias. didn't care to mix. mr. jenner. they didn't care to mix with other people--they made no effort to become friendly? mrs. tobias. no; i guess my house was the only one in the building she was ever in. mr. jenner. and as far as he was concerned, he had little contact with you, did he, other than pay the rent? mrs. tobias. no; my husband went over and got after them about the noise. i didn't go with him. you could speak to him and he would look at you so funny--he just didn't have anything to say. i heard a lady describe him in an interview on tv and that was him exactly. i told my husband, she couldn't do a better job--because he was tight, you know. mr. jenner. he was tightlipped most of the time? mrs. tobias. just as if his chin--just like that lady--i said to my husband, "isn't that something how she described him?" mr. jenner. did you ever see either of the oswalds after they left your building? mrs. tobias. oh, yes; they used to come back by, you see. i think i told you that my husband had had this accident. we have chairs--lawn chairs and we were sitting in the yard and she would come back by with the baby in her stroller and she would come up to the walk and smile. mr. jenner. did she talk to you? mrs. tobias. well, she never tried to have a conversation. i walked out to the car and i said, "you moved away and left us." mr. jenner. you walked out to the car? mrs. tobias. she was standing by a car--you see, those cars were parked there and i knew where she went, my husband and i would take walks and i said, "where did you go?" and she made " " on the car and then i knew it was neely--i said, "neely." mr. jenner. did she nod her head? mrs. tobias. yes; she was a real sweet little girl as far as i was concerned and she was a lonely person. i think she was very lonely. mr. jenner. is there anything you would like to add that i have not brought out, either because i don't know about it or for any reason, that you think might be helpful to the commission? mrs. tobias. well, they said to me that they thought this fellow that moved her out might have been this george, but they brought pictures--do you have pictures of the other men? mr. jenner. moved her out? mrs. tobias. you know--that day when they moved her out. mr. jenner. do i have pictures of a man by the name of george? mrs. tobias. yes; they brought some out but now, that did not look like the man to me. mr. jenner. do you recall them showing you a picture and telling you what the man's name was? mrs. tobias. no; is it paden? mr. jenner. the fbi agent? mrs. tobias. yes; i think he came to see us twice. mr. jenner. well, there are so many of them. mrs. tobias. and he was about one of the second groups that came and then later he came back with these pictures and he asked me if i thought that was the man i had seen in the hallway. mr. jenner. that would be the man who came to help her out of the apartment on that sunday? mrs. tobias. yes; he asked me if i thought that was him and i said, "well, it does not look like him to me." but, there has been a different opinion on that--my husband and i have had a different opinion on that all along about what we thought he looked like, but that did not look like the man to me. mr. jenner. well, i want your view. mrs. tobias. well, it didn't to me--it didn't look like the same man to me, but i couldn't swear who it was because i've only seen the picture, and i have seen pictures of mr. ruby, but the day they apprehended oswald, of course, we were looking on the tv. mr. jenner. did it look like pictures of mr. ruby you have seen? mrs. tobias. well, the one that he had didn't, but what i was going to tell you--after all that happened, and i seen pictures of him, on the tv---- mr. jenner. who--of ruby? mrs. tobias. yes; i told my husband, i said, "back in my mind that resembles the man more than anybody i have ever seen in my life," but now i wouldn't swear it because there was no resemblance of the pictures they brought out there to me, and the day that they arrested mr. oswald, lee oswald, we had tv on and i said to my husband, "look who they've got." he said, "what do you mean?" i said, "that's the guy that shot the president." he said, "who is it?" i said, "that's lee oswald." he said, "how do you know?" and i said, "don't you see him on there?" i recognized him right off and my husband's memory was kind of shook and he's just not the same person after he had this concussion. mr. jenner. i'm sorry to hear that. mrs. tobias. this big oil truck hit my husband, and you know, just almost got the car ahead and his nerves are just not the same--they haven't been the same. he says he's just not as stable--he's--he just don't seem to do what he should--it's coming gradually. the doctors say it will come, but he's kind of shook from the accident. i wasn't with him. mr. jenner. when you saw oswald around your home during those months, how was he dressed generally? mrs. tobias. well, he always just had slacks and a t-shirt or a jacket on, you know, a sport jacket--i don't mean a sport coat like a jacket. mr. jenner. a zipper jacket? mrs. tobias. yes and a t-shirt. he most always had on a t-shirt--you didn't see him very many times without a shirt. mr. jenner. i take it he got into no discussions with you or your husband about politics? mrs. tobias. no; lord, no. mr. jenner. as a matter of fact, he got in discussions with you about nothing? mrs. tobias. no, no; we had no contact with him. he just paid the rent and out he would go. he didn't make an effort to make a conversation even when he came to use the phone. mr. jenner. this is a furnished apartment? mrs. tobias. yes. mr. jenner. three rooms--do your three rooms consist of a living room, bedroom, and kitchen? mrs. tobias. yes; with the kitchen and dining room combined. mr. jenner. a kitchenette? mrs. tobias. and it is all in one and then there is a bed in the wall in the living room. mr. jenner. that opens into the living room. mrs. tobias. yes; the living room is real large, but the bedrooms are small. now, the kitchen that he had is smaller than the one i have, some of them are smaller, but that's the eating area, the dining area in the kitchen. mr. jenner. well, mrs. tobias, i can't think of anything else. i appreciate your coming up very much. these depositions are written up and you have the right, if you wish, to exercise it, to read the deposition and to sign it. we don't insist on that at all and you may waive the signing of the deposition if you wish, and it's your option, to do either way you would prefer--if you would prefer to read the deposition and sign it and you say so, the u.s. attorney will get in touch with you in due course and you may come in and read it and sign it. mrs. tobias. well, now, it doesn't matter to me because we would like to help you if we can and if we have been helpful and i tried to tell you exactly just what i know, which isn't very much help. i don't think we have been too much help because he moved out before all this happened. mr. jenner. well, you never can tell how much help you have been. you have been of help to me and i appreciate it very much. mrs. tobias. well, my husband and i have been willing--we have had a lot of people there. mr. jenner. if you wished to waive the signing of the deposition, we can just send it right into washington without troubling you to sign it. mrs. tobias. no; it is all right with me, because i have told you the truth. mr. jenner. oh, sure. mrs. tobias. all that is there is the truth and i have told you all i know. mr. jenner. well, thank you very much, and i will have your husband in now, if i may? mrs. tobias. okay. now, i couldn't swear that that was who the guy was. now, do you want me to leave the books with you? mr. jenner. yes; leave the books and we will give them to your husband. tobias exhibit no. is offered in evidence. mrs. tobias. okay. testimony of m. f. tobias, sr. the testimony of m. f. tobias, sr., was taken at : p.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. albert e. jenner, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. robert t. davis, assistant attorney general of texas, was present. mr. jenner. i understand you suffered an injury in an automobile accident? mr. tobias. yes; i ain't as young as i used to be since that. mr. jenner. this is mr. m. f. tobias, sr.? mr. tobias. that's right. mr. jenner. and he lives at elsbeth street, dallas, tex.? mr. tobias. six two and six four. mr. jenner. and he lives with mrs. tobias and you manage an apartment building at that address? mr. tobias. that's right; the wife and i together. mr. jenner. would you stand and be sworn, sir? mr. tobias, in your testimony you are about to give, do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. tobias. i do. mr. jenner. thank, you, sir. mr. tobias, i am albert e. jenner, jr., and i am a member of the legal staff of the president's commission. i understand from mrs. tobias that you and she received a letter from mr. rankin, the general counsel? mr. tobias. that's right. mr. jenner. with which was enclosed a copy of the senate joint resolution authorizing the creation of the president's commission? mr. tobias. that's right. mr. jenner. and of president johnson's executive order , creating the commission and appointing it and fixing its powers and duties and obligations, and also a copy of our rules and regulations for the taking of testimony. from those papers, i assume you are aware of the fact that at least our general direction is to investigate all the facts and circumstances surrounding the assassination of president kennedy on november , ? mr. tobias. that's right. mr. jenner. in the course of doing that, there are many people who, in their pursuit of their livelihoods, came in contact with a man by the name of lee oswald, and we understand you folks did and i would like to ask you a few questions about it. mr. tobias. go ahead; i'm willing to answer all i can. mr. jenner. you are aged what? mr. tobias. sixty-seven. mr. jenner. you are a native-born american? mr. tobias. yes. mr. jenner. born in battle creek, mich.? mr. tobias. that's right. mr. jenner. and your family--you raised two or three boys, as i understand it? mr. tobias. i've got two boys and two girls. mr. jenner. you have two boys and two girls and they are all adults and married now, i assume? mr. tobias. that's right. mr. jenner. and you are retired at the moment? mr. tobias. that's right. mr. jenner. and you and mrs. tobias manage this building on elsbeth street here in dallas? mr. tobias. that's right. mr. jenner. and in the course of your managing that building, you came in contact with a person by the name of lee oswald; is that so? mr. tobias. that's right. mr. jenner. tell me the circumstances? mr. tobias. well, i can tell you one thing, he was a funny duck. he came up there--maybe weeks before he rented it. mr. jenner. he rented it on november , ? mr. tobias. yes; but he came there maybe weeks before that. mr. jenner. that would be in october. he was alone, was he? mr. tobias. yes; and looked at the apartment. i told him what i wanted for it and i told him what the score was--we didn't allow no drinking or no parties, which i don't, and he says, "my wife isn't here"---- mr. jenner. off the record. (discussion between counsel jenner and the witness, mr. tobias, off the record.) mr. jenner. okay; now, that's what we want to get on the record. repeat that. mr. tobias. i tell them like this--what they drink in their apartment is their business, but when they get noisy that's mine. my business. then, he came back---- mr. jenner. was he alone? mr. tobias. yes; and he wanted to look at the apartment again, which happened to still be vacant, and then he wanted to go around the house. mr. jenner. around the apartment itself? mr. tobias. yes. mr. jenner. before you is tobias exhibit no. , and that is mrs. tobias' conception of a plat of your building. now, is there anything wrong with that? mr. tobias. well, it ain't the way i would have drawed it, because this building is kind of in a---- mr. jenner. well, now, mrs. tobias has drawn that green and i hand you now a red pen and ask you to draw one. mr. tobias. do you want me to drawn another one? mr. jenner. yes; let's mark it "tobias exhibit no. ," first. (the witness marks the instrument referred to as requested by counsel jenner.) mr. jenner. all right; draw me a plat of the building on the ground floor, that is the bottom surface. (witness tobias drew the plat requested by counsel jenner.) mr. jenner. now, mr. tobias has drawn a =u=-shaped outline. mr. tobias. this is all trees and shrubs in here. mr. jenner. in the =u= portion, that is a court or a patio, is it? mr. tobias. yes. mr. jenner. and that's trees and shrubs? mr. tobias. yes. mr. jenner. which is elsbeth street? you are now writing "elsbeth street" and this court faces on elsbeth street, does it? mrs. tobias. that's right; yes, sir. mr. jenner. all right. mr. tobias. this is a private driveway through here. mr. jenner. does the private driveway swing around to the rear? mr. tobias. and this is a line back here, a property line. now, this is davis street here. mr. jenner. all right, write davis street on there lengthwise, will you? mr. tobias. like that. [complied with request of counsel jenner.] mr. jenner. now, does this private driveway enter on elsbeth street? mr. tobias. the private driveway comes off from elsbeth. mr. jenner. put an arrow there, will you? mr. tobias. that's it. mr. jenner. and that's the private driveway? mr. tobias. now, his apartment was this one here. mr. jenner. draw a line across there, and put in the apartment number. mr. tobias. no. . mr. jenner. and at what address? mr. tobias. this is . mr. jenner. all right; write that in there, and now we've got that located. mr. tobias. [witness complied with request of counsel jenner.] he had an outside entrance--this is another apartment here, no. . mr. jenner. also on the ground floor? mr. tobias. also on the ground floor. they both used the same entrance here. mr. jenner. put an "x" there. mr. tobias. all the rest of the apartments--of course, there is an apartment here, and the same here [indicating]. it's two-story and the same thing upstairs. mr. jenner. what is the apartment number that is right in back of that patio? mr. tobias. this is no. . mr. jenner. and the one to the right? mr. tobias. this is no. . mr. jenner. and the one in front of that? mr. tobias. this is my apartment here. mr. jenner. number what? mr. tobias. no. . mr. jenner. and what address is that on elsbeth? mr. tobias. this is . mr. jenner. all right. write that in and now we're got it. now, what i want you to tell me about--is--tell me about that patio, how big is it? mr. tobias. oh, let's see, that must be to feet deep. mr. jenner. how far across? mr. tobias. about the same thing across. mr. jenner. does it have shrubbery and trees? mr. tobias. you see, you have a front door--this is our front entrance here. mr. jenner. will you put a little square there? mr. tobias. for these two apartments and for these three apartments here---- mr. jenner. i asked mrs. tobias, and i'm going to ask you this, because you are more accustomed to this sort of thing. could a man stand in that patio and dry sight a firearm or a weapon and not be noticed? mr. tobias. in the summertime--yes; because along here is shrubbery and along here is shrubbery. [indicating.] mr. jenner. now, would you put a figure in there, because we need it for the record and let's call that your first figure here--let's put an "a" in there, and the other one "b". now, those are shrubs or shrubbery? mr. tobias. that's right; and there is a brick wall across here. mr. jenner. how high is that brick wall? mr. tobias. that's about inches. mr. jenner. just a low wall? mr. tobias. yes; and there are shrubs on the outside of that wall and on the inside of the patio area here and in here in the center i have a round circle dug out and have got some kind of grass that grows right on there but that wouldn't amount to nothing. mr. jenner. that shrubbery that is facing on elsbeth street, how tall is that? mr. tobias. this shrubbery, now, faces these buildings here and it faces this apartment here. mr. jenner. the "a" shrubbery faces the address bank of apartments, and the "b" shrubbery faces your apartment? mr. tobias. yes; no. . now, this shrubbery is about to feet high. mr. jenner. that's the "a" shrubbery? mr. tobias. yes. this shrubbery over here is not so high because some of it died on me and i had to dig it up, but here now i have a big tree. mr. jenner. when you say "here," you are pointing to the center? mr. tobias. up here i have two pieces of shrubbery on each side of that. mr. jenner. the tree is what kind of a tree? mr. tobias. it's a fir tree. mr. jenner. it's solid right down to the ground? mr. tobias. that fir is up there maybe feet high. mr. jenner. so, somebody could stand behind the tree, and dry sight a rifle and not be seen from elsbeth street? mr. tobias. that's right. mr. jenner. now, pursuing this same subject--first, elsbeth street runs in what direction? mr. tobias. north and south. mr. jenner. which is the north end--the side or your side? mr. tobias. let me see, now. i get confused in directions. mr. jenner. well, let's put an "n" there for north and put an "s" up there for south and then over this way is to the east. mr. tobias. and this is west. mr. jenner. and if that is west, then this must be south and this must be north. mr. tobias. this is just exactly the way the apartment sets; this is west here. mr. jenner. put a "w" there and put an "e" up at the top for east. mr. tobias. i get confused with this direction myself here. mr. jenner. calling your attention to the rear entrance from the parkway, the driveway, what is there to the north of that, another building? mr. tobias. there is a house here. mr. jenner. a single-family dwelling? mr. tobias. yes; an old lady years old lives there. mr. jenner. and is that all open except for that house? mr. tobias. that's right. this is a regular driveway. we have our driveway here and she has her driveway too, you see. mr. jenner. all right; put another driveway in there. i'm going to mark that second driveway, if i might. [counsel jenner marked the instruments as stated.] there is a single-family dwelling, then? mr. tobias. she keeps--this old lady there keeps roomers. mr. jenner. she does? mr. tobias. what i mean, she just has just a room. mr. jenner. is that house about in here? mr. tobias. yes; that would be on the other side of the driveway here. mr. jenner. the other side of where i have marked this second driveway? mr. tobias. yes; facing elspeth. mr. jenner. what is the open space, say, between your building line and the single family dwelling? mr. tobias. oh, that must be--that can't be more than feet because there are driveways there. mr. jenner. could a man dry sighting a weapon, holding a rifle outside that rear entrance, do so without being detected and without people noticing it? mr. tobias. well, you've got the streets on elspeth and people in that house might see it, because her roomers are right there by that door. mr. jenner. now, people who are passing by or looking out of your window or looking out from this rooming house could see that? mr. tobias. yes. mr. jenner. did anybody ever say anything to you about oswald having a weapon? mr. tobias. no. mr. jenner. a firearm? mr. tobias. no. mr. jenner. using it--sighting it? mr. tobias. no. mr. jenner. was there ever an occasion when you noticed that there had been brought near the premises or on it or in his possession a package? mr. tobias. no; i never did see it because he always used his back door and i was over on the other side. mr. jenner. if you will pardon me--a package that to you you would recognize as a rifle? mr. tobias. no. mr. jenner. that possibly was a rifle? mr. tobias. no. mr. jenner. or, a bunch of curtain rods or window shades or something of that nature? mr. tobias. no. no; i've never seen nothing like that. i don't even remember the parcel post man ever leaving anything there--a package or anything. i never was in his apartment but twice, i don't think, while he lived there. i went in there with the exterminators twice, once a month, and we exterminated the place for cockroaches, that's one thing we don't like around here, and, of course, i had to get her permission to go in there. mr. jenner. did you speak with marina? mr. tobias. yes; and she was an awful nice girl. mr. jenner. she was? mr. tobias. yes; she was. mr. jenner. did she understand you when you spoke to her? mr. tobias. well, she was--would come out in her front yard--i sat in her front yard a lot and she would come out and bring the baby out and, of course, i think she could talk more english than what she put on she could, because he didn't want her to anyway. mr. jenner. how do you know that? mr. tobias. because she told the wife that he didn't want her to learn it. mr. jenner. did she give any reason? mr. tobias. yes; she said people will be mean to her. she got acquainted with them. she got acquainted with them and she used to come over to the house and sit with the wife a lot and the wife would talk to her. mr. jenner. and you moved in and around a lot, did you? mr. tobias. do you mean me--i was out around a lot? mr. jenner. yes; i mean you--you were around and you saw her with the child and you saw her in the apartment? mr. tobias. yes; i was around all the time--there is no night that goes by before i got to bed that i don't make a trip around the house. mr. jenner. you had an accident; when was that? mr. tobias. in october, i think it was. mr. jenner. and were you confined in your apartment for quite a while? mr. tobias. yes; i was there a week before i went to the hospital and i was in the hospital a week or better, and then i come home and i didn't do much but lay around--i had an awful concussion. mr. jenner. that's what i understand--are you feeling better now? mr. tobias. oh, i'm getting along all right now, only lost the hearing out of this ear. mr. jenner. but you did see marina in and around your apartment and you saw her out in the walk, walking the baby and she was friendly, was she? mr. tobias. she was always friendly. mr. jenner. a very nice girl? mr. tobias. yes. mr. jenner. clean and neat? mr. tobias. yes. mr. jenner. and attended to her child? mr. tobias. well, she took care of her baby, that's for sure, and it was always clean. mr. jenner. and she attempted to be pleasant and talk to you people to the limited extent she was able to do, is that a fair statement? mr. tobias. i didn't hear you. mr. jenner. i mean, she would say a few words to you--she had a limited command of english? mr. tobias. that's right. mr. jenner. but you tried to communicate with her and she with you? mr. tobias. yes. mr. jenner. at least to a limited extent? mr. tobias. well, i talked to her and, of course, she wouldn't say nothing back and oswald, i tried to talk to him several times and all i could get of him was a grunt. he was a kind of a guy that wouldn't talk to you at all. mr. jenner. is that right? mr. tobias. yes; and he was a peculiar duck. mr. jenner. how did your other tenants feel toward oswald? mr. tobias. well, they didn't like it. mr. jenner. they didn't like what? mr. tobias. they didn't like the way he beat her all the time. mr. jenner. they complained to you that he manhandled her? mr. tobias. yes; there was one man that came over there one night and he told me, he said, "i think that man over there is going to kill that girl," and i said, "i can't do a darn thing about it." i says, "that's domestic troubles and i don't jump into a man and a woman's fighting," which i don't. if he hurts her bad, then i'll have to take it up, but not until, so he knocked a window out of the back door. mr. jenner. when was that, when did that occur? mr. tobias. sir? mr. jenner. when did that occur? mr. tobias. while he was living there--along toward the last. i think it was the last month he was there. mr. jenner. how did that come to your attention? mr. tobias. well, i was going by there--and i cleaned the halls, and i was sweeping out the hall and i seen the window was broken and i spoke to him about it and he said, "i'll get it in" and he never did get it in. mr. jenner. did he tell you how it happened? mr. tobias. no. mr. jenner. did he have any covering up over it? mr. tobias. he got to fighting so much around there that i told the man that owned it, mr. jurek, so him and his wife went over there one night and told him that he was making too much noise with their fighting and they had to quit or move, so they moved. mr. jenner. you found this fellow pretty close-mouthed and laconic? mr. tobias. yes; he was--he didn't say nothing to nobody. mr. jenner. on the other hand, you found her to be pleasant, neat and a delightful young lady? mr. tobias. that's right. mr. jenner. a good mother? mr. tobias. she came over too, when he came over to use the telephone. mr. jenner. when was that--do you remember a particular incidence? mr. tobias. oh, well, one time--yes--somebody by the name of george called. mr. jenner. did you answer the phone on that occasion? mr. tobias. no; mother answered it and i don't hardly ever answer the phone because i can't hear good and this fellow wanted oswald and she asked him, i understand, who it was and she said it was george and i went over and told oswald that he was wanted on the phone and they came over there and they both talked and they both talked in their language. mr. jenner. you heard his end of the telephone conversation, did you? mr. tobias. no; you couldn't--because they talked in their language. mr. jenner. you heard him, is all i asked you? mr. tobias. all i could hear--i could hear him talking but i didn't know what they were talking about. mr. jenner. you were present in the room, is all i mean. mr. tobias. yes; we were there. mr. jenner. and you heard him speak over the telephone? mr. tobias. yes. mr. jenner. and he spoke in some foreign tongue? mr. tobias. yes. mr. jenner. which you couldn't understand? mr. tobias. that's right. mr. jenner. and the whole conversation was in this foreign tongue? mr. tobias. yes; they both talked. mr. jenner. you didn't hear the other fellow on the other end? mr. tobias. oh, no. mr. jenner. you assumed that he was likewise talking in the same language? mr. tobias. i imagine so--yes. mr. jenner. were you curious about that? mr. tobias. yes--i didn't like it, because when anybody says anything, i like to know what they are talking about. mr. jenner. did you say anything to him about it? mr. tobias. no; because it's a private phone and i pay my own phone bill, and i don't figure it's up to the people in the apartments to be using my phone all the time, and we let him understand that. mr. jenner. you did? mr. tobias. yes. mr. jenner. did you ask him what language that was he was speaking in? mr. tobias. well, he came over--when he first came in he told us he was czech. mr. jenner. when was this--this weeks other time? mr. tobias. no; that was after he moved in, and my landlady is czechoslovakian. mr. jenner. your landlady is czechoslovakian? mr. tobias. my landlady is czechoslovakian herself, and so one day when marion was over at the house, mrs. oswald was in there--she had come in there and sat down. mr. jenner. this was an occasion when marina, or do you mean the landlady, marion came in? mr. tobias. i say mrs. jurek was there. mr. jenner. mrs. jurek was in your apartment? mr. tobias. yes; she came to collect the rent and mrs. oswald was in there. mr. jenner. she was visiting? mr. tobias. and my wife says. "mrs. jurek, mrs. oswald is czechoslovakian." mrs. jurek says, "all right, speak something. i'm czech too." she says, "no, we're not czech, we're russian, but my husband doesn't want us to say that because people will be mean to us." mr. jenner. how do you know she said that? mr. tobias. i was there. mr. jenner. did you hear marina say, "no; i'm not czech, i'm russian." mr. tobias. yes. mr. jenner. "and my husband doesn't want people to know that because people will be mean to me?" mr. tobias. yes. mr. jenner. she said that much in english so that you would understand it? mr. tobias. yes, sir. mr. jenner. that's quite a bit of english. mr. tobias. well, i know. that's what i'm trying to tell you--she knew more english than she let on she did. mr. jenner. that's of interest to us--she was able to communicate that whole idea to you in english? mr. tobias. that's right. mr. jenner. and did she speak some russian then to this lady? mr. tobias. no--after she told mrs. jurek she was russian, that was it, because mrs. jurek didn't--she was czech and she didn't know no russian. mr. jenner. i take it that marina visited in your apartment rather frequently? mr. tobias. oh, she come over there very seldom--she came over there. mr. jenner. very seldom? mr. tobias. yes; she come over there a couple of times a week. mr. jenner. she did come over that often, though? mr. tobias. yes; she would come over there and sit and the wife would talk to her, because my wife is a great hand to sew, and she would watch the wife and the little baby would play, but what burned me up--i'm a great lover of children, and when i tried to get next to that little baby sitting in a wheelchair---- mr. jenner. in a stroller? mr. tobias. in a stroller and as i would walk up to it and try to talk to it, she just acted as if she was scared to death. mr. jenner. is that so--was that unusual? mr. tobias. well, it is to me. mr. jenner. i mean, in your experience? mr. tobias. yes; because i haven't found a baby yet that i couldn't take over. mr. jenner. did you finally win the baby over? mr. tobias. no--they didn't stay there that long. that's why he moved--he moved in that trailer, in that stroller. mr. jenner. when was that? mr. tobias. that was after--when he left my place. when he moved from my place up around the corner around a block and a half and he moved everything in that stroller. mr. jenner. was that after the owners of the building had come and told him that he was making too much noise or too much trouble and that they suggested he might find another apartment? mr. tobias. that's right. mr. jenner. let's see, this was on a sunday, wasn't it, march ? mr. tobias. well, now--i think that he stayed there, a couple of days, if i'm not mistaken over his rent period. mr. jenner. he had paid his rent, though? mr. tobias. yes; he had paid his rent. you see, the last month that he paid, the books will show you that he come in there with $ and that's all he had, he said, and then he would come back later with the $ , which he did do. mr. jenner. mrs. tobias has furnished your rent receipts and we have recited that into the record, so we have a record of that. he didn't move out on the d, he lacked a couple of days, is that right? mr. tobias. well, there might have been a day or two in there in his getting out. mr. jenner. did he pay for those extra days? mr. tobias. no. mr. jenner. did you ever ask him to pay? mr. tobias. no--i didn't. we asked him to pay for the window, but he didn't pay for it either. mr. jenner. did he ever come back and ask you for his $ deposit, the key deposit? mr. tobias. no, he never did--not to me. mr. jenner. did he surrender the key? mr. tobias. yes. mr. jenner. what was the appearance of the apartment when he moved out? mr. tobias. i didn't understand it. mr. jenner. what was the appearance of the apartment when he moved out? mr. tobias. well, it was in pretty good shape. mr. jenner. it was? mr. tobias. it was pretty clean--there was one thing i noticed and that was when i went in there with the exterminator--we have beds in there, the beds that we have in there has these kind of bookshelves at the top of them, and he had worlds and worlds of books. mr. jenner. he did? mr. tobias. they were all russian--you would see this russian and this russian and this russian and that, but i didn't touch one of them. mr. jenner. but they were either russian language books? mr. tobias. well, that i don't know. mr. jenner. well, they were books about russia? mr. tobias. they were on russia, because the headline on the side of it here was russian. mr. jenner. on the heel of the book? mr. tobias. and it would just be russian i or russian ii or something like that and that was to me kinda--looked kinda odd to me; of course, i didn't think nothing of it. mr. jenner. were they subscribers to newspapers? mr. tobias. i think he took the morning news, if i'm not mistaken. mr. jenner. he paid the rent promptly? mr. tobias. yes; by the month. mr. jenner. by the month and in cash? mr. tobias. that's right, and the only time he got behind was that one month--that one time there with the $ and then he made that up. mr. jenner. did you ever discuss with him where he was working? mr. tobias. no. mr. jenner. how he was making his money? mr. tobias. no; you didn't discuss nothing with that boy. mr. jenner. he didn't volunteer it and even if you tried, you couldn't have gotten anything--is that about it? mr. tobias. his card--when he made out his card--when he made out his card, that's where i slipped up a little, i guess. he made out his card that he was in the service. of course, i should have questioned him more, which i didn't do, but in the business in the apartment house you get so darned many jokers in there. mr. jenner. i wouldn't doubt it--was there an occasion when marina moved out for a short time? mr. tobias. yes. mr. jenner. describe that, please. mr. tobias. well, now, this is when i was goofy-headed. mr. jenner. you mean that followed your accident? mr. tobias. i hadn't been home from the hospital very long, but we came back from somewhere--i don't know where, and we seen a car out there and they were loading it up and the wife jumped out of the car and she said, "well, i guess the oswalds are moving. we'll find out." she goes around and goes in the front door and back down to the door and she meets a man and she says. "what are they doing--moving out?" and he tells her that he's moving mrs. oswald away for a short time. so, i don't know whether it was the same guy or another guy, but anyway, there was a fellow that came around to the front with an armload of stuff--but the man i seen was a tall man, about -foot tall and dark complected and a slight mustache. that was the man that i saw. mr. jenner. how big a man was he? mr. tobias. he was a tall man-- -foot tall. mr. jenner. at least -foot--he might have been taller? mr. tobias. he could have been taller. mr. jenner. how tall are you, bob? mr. davis. six foot four inches. mr. jenner. mr. davis will stand up and he is foot inches. mr. tobias. he was about like him--maybe a little shorter, but just about that height. mr. jenner. about that build? mr. tobias. yes--just about the same build. mr. jenner. what did he weigh--a couple of hundred pounds or a hundred and ninety? mr. tobias. well, probably a hundred ninety to two hundred pounds. mr. davis. i weigh about . mr. tobias. that's what i weigh. mr. jenner. what did this man say? mr. tobias. he said he was moving mrs. oswald for a few days--he told the wife that. he never said nothing to me. mr. jenner. did you see the automobile they were in? mr. tobias. yes. mr. jenner. what was it? mr. tobias. it was a convertible--a red one. mr. jenner. red? mr. tobias. yes. mr. jenner. do you know what make it was? mr. tobias. no, i don't--i had seen it there before. mr. jenner. when did this occur? mr. tobias. well, i guess maybe she moved out in march. mr. jenner. was--with respect to your illness, was it before your illness or after--before your accident or after? mr. tobias. that was after my accident. you see, i was goofy-headed right around in that period of time. mr. jenner. from your concussion? mr. tobias. yes; in fact, i have been goofy-headed all of my life, but i was worse then. mr. jenner. you said you saw this red convertible around the apartment on prior occasions? mr. tobias. well, i had seen the car there once before. mr. jenner. at least once? mr. tobias. yes. mr. jenner. it might have been more? mr. tobias. well, no, i won't say any more than that, but i know i have seen it there once before that time. mr. jenner. had you seen this man there before? mr. tobias. no; i never seen him before. you see, they can drive right down that driveway and park in front of this door here, and i couldn't see them. mr. jenner. well, they could come in from the rear, couldn't they, they could come in off of davis street? mr. tobias. well, they could come up around off of davis and come up through here too. mr. jenner. did they have anybody visit there, in addition to this man? mr. tobias. well, there was a lady came there to see about the baby one day and she said she had got a call that the baby was sick and they didn't have no money to buy it any medicine and my wife took her over there and she said she had been trying to get in, but there wouldn't nobody answer the door and my wife went over there and she hammered on the door and oswald, instead of him coming to the front door, he goes out this back door and comes all the way around to the front. mr. jenner. that's kind of strange. mr. tobias. that's right--that's the kind of guy he was, and then there was a blonde headed woman there one time. mr. jenner. a blonde? mr. tobias. she was looking for oswald--for the oswalds, too. mr. jenner. describe her? mr. tobias. she got in and she went in the house. mr. jenner. would you describe her, please? mr. tobias. well, i imagine she weighed around pounds and was around foot inches or inches. mr. jenner. a slender woman? mr. tobias. yes; she was a slender, blonde headed--a pretty woman. this other woman that came there wanted to see about the baby, and she was kind of a dark-haired woman and i imagine she would weigh around pounds or , but she was rather short, she was about feet tall. mr. jenner. she was pounds and feet what? mr. tobias. she was around foot--she wasn't too large. mr. jenner. she was kind of slender too, then, a little heavier than the other one? mr tobias. yes, she was a little heavier. mr. jenner. did either of these ladies identify themselves in any way? mr. tobias. no. mr. jenner. did either of them say they lived in dallas or worked in dallas? mr. tobias. well, let me see--there's one of them, i think this dark-headed woman, said she worked here in dallas. mr. jenner. is that the one you described first? mr. tobias. no; the dark-headed woman--the blonde--i don't know about her, the wife talked to her. mr. jenner. did you see the oswalds after they left, after they moved out of the apartment? mr. tobias. yes; i don't know that i ever seen him, but i seen her as she went by the house a couple of times wheeling the baby and i didn't even know where they moved to until one night my car was in a wreck and i didn't have nothing and the wife and i walked a lot and i went around the corner and i seen her upstairs in an apartment window and that was where they moved to. i don't know how long they stayed there. she went by the house not more than or weeks ago here and she had a bunch of men in the car one night and waved--she knew me. mr. jenner. she waved to you or weeks ago? mr. tobias. yes. mr. jenner. did you get a good look at her? mr. tobias. yes. mr. jenner. you recognized her? mr. tobias. oh, yes--she was sitting in the back seat. she had the little girl with her. mr. jenner. was that a convertible? mr. tobias. no, no; that was a big car--i don't know what kind of car it was. mr. jenner. you have seen some pictures of jack ruby posted in the newspaper and on television? mr. tobias. yes. mr. jenner. this man that came to move marina out of there for a temporary visit, did he look like jack ruby? mr. tobias. no. mr. jenner. how long was she away? mr. tobias. oh, she wouldn't have been away, well, i imagine she was gone about weeks. i never did know when she came back. mr. jenner. she was gone temporarily, a week to weeks, or something of that kind? mr. tobias. she was gone longer than that--she was gone a couple of weeks at least. mr. jenner. did she ever talk to you about that sojourn of hers? mr. tobias. no. mr. jenner. did you ever ask her? mr. tobias. no. mr. jenner. did your wife? mr. tobias. i didn't ask her nothing. mr. jenner. do you know whether your wife did? mr. tobias. no--i don't know whether she did or not. mr. jenner. at least your wife never reported it to you? mr. tobias. if my wife said anything, or if she had said anything to my wife, she would have told me. my wife and i been together years. mr. jenner. give me your observations, i know you have already done it to some extent, but give me your observations as to the personality of this man. mr. tobias. ruby? mr. jenner. no. mr. tobias. you mean oswald? mr. jenner. yes--you saw him off and on for about months. mr. tobias. well, now, he was the kind of a guy that went around with his lips tight and if you did say anything to him he would answer you just as darn quick as he could and just be sharp as he could and so he didn't have to do that to me only a couple of times and i didn't say nothing more to him. mr. jenner. you got the message? mr. tobias. and i figured that if he didn't want to talk to me, i didn't want to talk to him. he come over and paid his rent, he paid his rent and i give him a receipt, and that was all there was to it. mr. jenner. you never had any pleasantries on that occasion? mr. tobias. no, no; there was no good morning or no good night or nothing about it, and he would get up and go to the store to get the groceries and she would carry the groceries and he would lead the way. mr. jenner. you saw that on more than one occasion? mr. tobias. i saw it a lot of times. mr. jenner. she did the lugging? mr. tobias. yes--sure. mr. jenner. did he have an automobile? mr. tobias. no. mr. jenner. was there ever any conversation with him or conversation occurred in your presence as to whether he could drive an automobile? mr. tobias. no--no. mr. jenner. and when they moved away, they moved away in the perambulator? mr. tobias. they moved away in that stroller. mr. jenner. they couldn't have had very much in the way of household equipment? mr. tobias. they didn't have very much--all he had was books and what little dishes they had and that wasn't very many and the baby bed. mr. jenner. you did see marina from time to time after they moved out of the apartment? mr. tobias. well, i have seen her maybe, i'll say three or four times--that's all i've seen her. she would go by and she would always wave a hand at me and she would go down--i don't know to where to heck she ever went to, but she always--when she was even living there, she would go out onto davis and i would watch her as she would go on up to zangs street going towards town. whether she was going to go see somebody or just going for a walk, that, i don't know. mr. jenner. mr. tobias, is there anything that occurs to you that you think might be helpful to the commission? mr. tobias. no; i told you just like i told the fbi--i have tried to be honest with all them and i have sat down and studied it and after the fbi had come out there and see if i could think of anything else and i told you just like i told the other --there has been of them out there. i even had one guy from the detroit times down there. of course, i was raised in michigan and i told him to keep my name out of it and he did and he didn't put it in there. all my people are up there and i didn't want them to get tangled up in it. mr. jenner. well, i have concluded my questioning. if there is nothing further you want to add, we appreciate this very much, your coming in, and you might think that you are not furnishing us anything, but there are kernels, you know, and pieces of the puzzle--there are small ones and big ones. i offer tobias exhibit no. in evidence. mr. tobias. well, like i told my wife--anytime we can help out we will and if you want us again, we are willing. mr. jenner. i appreciate your cooperation. these are your original receipt books and we have recited them in the record and now return them to you and thank you very much for bringing them. mr. tobias. i have one of these i keep ever since i been in that apartment and i been there for years and a half and i have got every receipt i ever wrote and i keep it on records and lots of times i have to go back to them and there's only one person that doesn't get into them and that's the credit department. mr. jenner. by the way, mr. tobias, this deposition will be written up in due course and you may read it and sign it. if you wish, you may waive that--it's a privilege and a right you have if you want to sign it, and if you want to waive it that's all right. mr. tobias. it would be sent to me? mr. jenner. you would have to come in here to read it. mr. tobias. okay. mr. jenner. if you want to come in and read it you call barefoot sanders' office, that's the u.s. attorney's office, and they will tell you when it is ready to be read. mrs. tobias decided she would forego that privilege--she didn't want to come in and read it. mr. tobias. well, i'll talk to her too. mr. jenner. okay; you'll call in and mr. sanders will probably call you, but you will hear from him. mr. davis. thank you very much. [at this point mrs. tobias, the wife of the deponent, entered the deposing room.] mr. tobias. the wife wants to talk to you about something. mr. jenner. all right. mrs. tobias. now, you said something about signing this; how is that going to be? mr. jenner. well, your husband decided he would like to see his and you might like to see yours, so you might as well see yours? mrs. tobias. you will call us--you will let us know? mr. tobias. we will come in here, mother, and if you want to sign it, and if you don't want to sign it we won't sign it. mrs. tobias. okay. mr. jenner. now, wait a minute--you come down and read it and if there are any errors in it, that you want to correct, you correct them, but you aren't going to refuse to sign it, are you? mr. tobias. no; i don't imagine i will. mrs. tobias. do you know what he said, mr. jenner? mr. jenner. what? mrs. tobias. we got this letter and he said, "i thought we was going to get around this warren commission--i didn't think we were going to have to go before the warren commission." is this going to be the end of it or is there still going to be some more? mr. jenner. well, i can't tell you whether it will be the end of it or not. mrs. tobias. well, we may go from here--that letter said any place in the united states and if it did we would have to go; okay? mr. jenner. that's right. if you have to come to washington, your transportation will be paid. mr. tobias. that's all right, but just make it summertime. mrs. tobias. well, of course we will be glad to come. mr. jenner. all right, thank you both for coming. testimony of mrs. jesse garner the testimony of mrs. jesse garner was taken on april , , at the old civil courts building, royal and conti streets, new orleans, la., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mrs. jesse garner, magazine street, new orleans, la., after being sworn by mr. wesley j. liebeler, examiner, testified as follows: mr. liebeler. my name is wesley j. liebeler. i am a member of the legal staff of the president's commission investigating the assassination of president kennedy. staff members have been authorized to take testimony from witnesses by the commission pursuant to authority granted to the commission by executive order no. dated november , , and joint resolution of congress no. . i understand, mrs. garner, that mr. rankin wrote to you and your husband last week advising you i would contact you concerning the taking of your testimony. mrs. garner. yes; he did. mr. liebeler. and that he enclosed with the letter a copy of the executive order and of the joint resolution to which i have referred, as well as a copy of the rules of procedure adopted by the commission relating to the taking of testimony of witnesses. is that not correct? mrs. garner. that's right mr. liebeler. we wish to inquire of you today, mrs. garner, concerning your knowledge of lee harvey oswald which you may have gained as a result of your being the manager or one of the managers of the apartment building in which oswald lived while he was in new orleans from approximately may through september . before we get into the details of that, however, would you state your full name for the record? mrs. garner. mrs. jesse garner. mr. liebeler. where do you live? mrs. garner. magazine. mr. liebeler. where were you born? mrs. garner. vacherie, la. mr. liebeler. have you lived all of your life in louisiana? mrs. garner. yes. mr. liebeler. can you tell us when you were born? mrs. garner. march , . mr. liebeler. am i correct in understanding that you and your husband are the managers of the premises known as - magazine street here in new orleans? mrs. garner. yes; we are. mr. liebeler. how long have you been the managers of those premises? mrs. garner. four years. mr. liebeler. will you describe briefly for us the nature of the premises? mrs. garner. the house, do you mean? mr. liebeler. yes. mrs. garner. well, it is a double house. i live in one side, and the other side has two apartments, and i have two apartments in the back, unattached to the house upstairs and downstairs. mr. liebeler. am i correct in understanding that the half of the house in which you and your husband live is known as magazine street? mrs. garner. right. mr. liebeler. and the front apartment, which i understand is one-half of the rest of the house---- mrs. garner. yes. mr. liebeler. that is magazine street? mrs. garner. right. mr. liebeler. in the rear of the other side of the house is a separate apartment numbered magazine street? mrs. garner. right. mr. liebeler. did there come a time in the spring of when you made the acquaintance of lee harvey oswald? mrs. garner. when i talked to them, or what? mr. liebeler. yes. mrs. garner. or when i rented him the place? mr. liebeler. how did you first come in contact with him, and what was your conversation with him, and what was the result of the conversation you had? mrs. garner. the only thing was when he come to rent the apartment, there was another lady that brought him but they were in the car, but i didn't notice the car. i didn't pay attention, and when she came to the door to ring the bell, she told me he was looking for an apartment and his mother and her was good friends, and she knew him from a baby. little lee she called him, and that she had two places, i don't remember exactly where she said--i think somewhere on prythania, and he went there first and they never had nothing empty, and she took him riding and they saw my sign and stopped. i showed him the apartment, and she took him through it, and she said it was very nice. she looked at the screen porch and said it would be very nice for the baby. we stood on the screen porch, and he asked me did i have any table lamps, they didn't have any and his wife was going to come later, and we stood on the porch talking and she was telling me how long she knew him, since he was a little boy, and she was friends with his mother and he had gotten married overseas, and she hadn't met his wife and hadn't seen him for a long time, and that is when he took a picture out of his wallet and showed a picture of his wife and baby. not the baby, i don't think he had a picture of the baby. maybe he did, i don't remember. well, i told him, i said, well, that is nice, overseas girls make nice wives at times, because i had one living upstairs not too long before that, and i said they were real nice. he said, "yes, one thing, they don't give you no lip." i will never forget that. that is one thing he said, and that's all i can really remember he said, and he paid me the month's rent. mr. liebeler. how much was that? mrs. garner. $ . mr. liebeler. how did he pay that to you? was it in cash? mrs. garner. cash; and he said that his wife would be coming in that sunday, the weekend you know. i think it was, it must have been on the ninth. i don't remember exactly when the ninth was. what day was it? mr. liebeler. the th of may, according to the calendar with which the reporter has graciously supplied us, was a thursday. mrs. garner. thursday. that weekend, that is when she came in. mr. liebeler. do you remember the name of this woman that was with oswald? mrs. garner. no; she never said her name and i didn't ask her, but i know she was a middle-aged woman in about her middle fifties or late fifties, well kept, reddish looking hair with a ball in the back, and she wore glasses; a well kept woman. mr. liebeler. did they say specifically they had stopped at your place because they had seen the sign advertising the apartment for rent? mrs. garner. yes; the sign, yes. she took him riding and seen the sign out. mr. liebeler. do you remember any other conversation with either oswald or this lady that first time you met oswald? mrs. garner. no; that is about all, because then they left. mr. liebeler. did oswald move back to the apartment, or move into the apartment, before his wife came or did they come together and move in together? mrs. garner. no; he was in there a couple of days before she came. mr. liebeler. do you remember exactly when he moved in? did he come back later on the th, or did he come on the th? mrs. garner. the next day, the next evening. mr. liebeler. the next day. he moved in the next evening? mrs. garner. the next evening. mr. liebeler. that would have been friday the th? mrs. garner. i don't know if he stayed there, but he was there. mr. liebeler. he did move some of his belongings in; is that correct? mrs. garner. yes. mr. liebeler. did you notice anything about his belongings, what kind of stuff he had? mrs. garner. i didn't see that. i didn't see anything of that. mr. liebeler. you didn't see any suitcases he might have had? mrs. garner. no. mr. liebeler. do you remember when his wife came? mrs. garner. that weekend; on that sunday. that was a sunday. mr. liebeler. how did she arrive? mrs. garner. in this station wagon, that lady from texas, that it had a texas license, blue and tan station wagon or blue and white, something like that, and she also stayed a few days then when she brought the wife in, she stayed at least a week. mr. liebeler. this was a woman from texas? mrs. garner. yes. mr. liebeler. whom you later learned was named mrs. paine? is that correct? mrs. garner. right. mr. liebeler. now, did you notice how many people there were in the station wagon when it arrived? mrs. garner. no; i really didn't. mr. liebeler. did you notice how many---- mrs. garner. in fact, i didn't see the station wagon when it arrived; i didn't see it until the next day. i saw it parked out there with the texas license and figured, you know, she had come in, his wife, because that is where he told me she was coming from, texas. mr. liebeler. did you later learn how many people were in the apartment, or came in the station wagon? mrs. garner. yes; when my husband talked to mrs. paine outside, he told me she had two little girls. i didn't know it, i didn't see them. mr. liebeler. and did oswald himself have a little girl? mrs. garner. a little girl, june. mr. liebeler. and oswald's wife? mrs. garner. yes. i didn't know she was in a family way. i didn't know she was going to have another baby when she rented the apartment, because when i first saw her she didn't look that way to me. mr. liebeler. you say mrs. paine stayed in the apartment about a week. did you have any conversation with her during that time? mrs. garner. no; i never even saw the lady. i never saw her. i couldn't tell you what she looked like. my husband saw her. mr. liebeler. you say your husband had talked to her. did he tell you what she had said? mrs. garner. no; i never asked him and he never said nothing. mr. liebeler. did you ever have any direct contact with either oswald or his wife after they moved into the apartment? mrs. garner. well, the first thing, they was there a couple of weeks and i have a window fan in the kitchen, and i take the screen down to hose it and clean it, and i didn't put the screen back up. i just set it on the screen porch, and a couple of weeks later he come to me and asked me if i had a ladder and hammer, he was going to put the screen up. mr. liebeler. this was the screen that belonged on the window---- mrs. garner. the screen belonged on the outside of the kitchen. i have a window fan and it gets dirty, and i take it off and hose it and clean it, but i didn't put it back. i left it on the porch, and he wanted to put it back. mr. liebeler. was this a window fan in oswald's kitchen? mrs. garner. it was in oswald's kitchen, and he wanted to put the screen up and asked me was it all right to put the screen up, and asked me would i loan him a ladder and a hammer. the hooks belonged to the screen to hook the screen, they was off, but i loaned him two nails and told him to tack the screen on so far, so i could take the nails off, and that would be it, so his wife come outside in the meantime with the baby, and they was talking russian and i couldn't understand what they were saying. mr. liebeler. did you know it was the russian language then? mrs. garner. no; i don't know. i just put two and two together when they come out with that russian, but i knew she was russian. he told me she was russian when they came to rent the apartment. i don't know what made me say it, but i told him, i called him lee, i said, "lee, why don't you talk english to your little girl and your wife? that way she could learn to talk english, and when the little girl goes to school it wouldn't be as hard on her." he said, "she has time enough to learn that," and he never had a nice word to say to me after that. i think that must have made him hate me or something like that, because he just passed me up all the time too, and never turned his head to look. mr. liebeler. did he get the screen back up? mrs. garner. yes; he tacked it back up, and i got my ladder and hammer back, and he never even said thank you or nothing. mr. liebeler. did he tell you any specific reason why he didn't speak english to his wife and girl? mrs. garner. no; that's all he said, they had plenty time enough for that, something like that. mr. liebeler. did you ever try to talk to marina oswald? mrs. garner. yes; i did when she would be outside hanging clothes. i tried to talk to her and to the baby, i talked to both, and she would put her hands over her eyes and start crying. i asked her how she felt, and she would just do like this with her shoulders. mr. liebeler. she shrugged her shoulders? mrs. garner. yes; and when she would see you she would not try to say hello, and she always wore little pedal pushers around the house with a little shirt, and her hair was straight pulled back and pinned down. mr. liebeler. this was marina? mrs. garner. yes. mr. liebeler. did she have long hair? mrs. garner. yes; long enough, about here. mr. liebeler. down to her shoulders? mrs. garner. yes. mr. liebeler. did you have any other contact with oswald yourself, personally? mrs. garner. yes. one time i went for my rent, it was a few days past due, the rent, and i mean, you know, when you let them go they wait too long and they don't ever get it. it was a few days later, i was going around the drive to see about my rent and he was starting out the drive to catch a bus on the corner, and when he saw me he turned around and looked, figured i was coming after the rent. i said, "oswald, you got the rent? the landlady is coming for the rent." he said, "yes, i have it." he was fixing to go to the bus, so he turned around to walk up the drive to go get the money, and i said, "go on where you have to go; i will get it later," and he just pushed me aside and went by me and went and got the money and handed it to me. mr. liebeler. did he actually push you aside physically? mrs. garner. yes, just like that, and i called to him and i said, "never mind; go where you have to go and i will get it later," and he just took me like this and pushed me aside and just went, you know, just went by me like that. mr. liebeler. he actually laid his hands on you? mrs. garner. put his hands on me just like that, and pushed me. mr. liebeler. did he say anything? mrs. garner. he didn't say a thing. he come back and gave me the money and that was it. mr. liebeler. when was the next time you had any---- mrs. garner. well, i didn't talk to him any more than that, because i noticed how he was, wouldn't answer you when you say good morning or good evening, hello or good morning, so i just never bothered. the only thing, at night he used to come past behind the house and always wore trunks, yellow trunks with thongs, no top shirt, and he used to stuff all my garbage cans and all the garbage cans on the street, and never would talk to anybody, pass right by the door of the apartment of the other people and never did talk to anybody. mr. liebeler. you never had any conversation with him after this time when you asked him about the rent? mrs. garner. no, that's about it. the most i talked to him was when he rented the apartment, that is the day he took it, and that lady done most of the talking. in fact, she had given me her phone number to let me call and let her know how oswald was doing, and the wife when the wife would come in. i figured what in the world i want that for and i just threw it away and didn't bother with it. i didn't think anything like this was going to come up. mr. liebeler. did oswald ever have any visitors to his apartment, do you know? mrs. garner. yes. as i said, i never did see anybody else around there myself except this middle-aged man and middle-aged woman like i said that come and picked him up one weekend on a saturday and come back that sunday after, because i happened to be sitting on the box and saw them come up. mr. liebeler. would this have been in july? mrs. garner. about in july, i imagine. i know there was a lot of mosquitoes around that time; i think it was july sometime. i am really not sure. it was hot. mr. liebeler. how many times did these people come to see oswald? mrs. garner. that is twice i seen, once i seen both of them come in the evening one night, and they didn't stay very long, but i was sitting outside. and that weekend, it was just him come to pick him up. mr. liebeler. you saw the man come to pick up oswald on two different occasions? is that right? mrs. garner. one occasion they came. mr. liebeler. the man was with a woman on one occasion? mrs. garner. at night one time, and then when he come to pick him up for the weekend he was by himself. mr. liebeler. altogether, he was there twice? mrs. garner. yes. mr. liebeler. once by himself? mrs. garner. yes. mr. liebeler. and once with a woman; is that right? mrs. garner. yes. if they was there before that, i didn't see them. mr. liebeler. you only saw him come twice? mrs. garner. yes. mr. liebeler. approximately how old was this man? mrs. garner. i don't know. like i say, i am not too good at judging ages. i would say in his late fifties or early sixties, something like that. he had a high forehead, a high peak right here, and kind of greyish. mr. liebeler. could you describe him for us, please? was he a white man? mrs. garner. yes. mr. liebeler. did he appear to be spanish or cuban extraction to you? mrs. garner. no, no, no. mr. liebeler. he was fair complected? mrs. garner. yes. mr. liebeler. are those the only two people you ever saw visit oswald? mrs. garner. well, there was that cuban or spanish looking guy one time rang my bell in the late afternoon, kind of short, very dark black curly hair, and he had a stack of these same pamphlets in his hand he was spreading out on canal street there on the porch, and he had a stack of them in his hand and he asked me about oswald, and i said he was living around on that side where the screen porch is, and i saw those things in his hand and i said, "you are not going to spread those things on my porch," and that was all, and i closed the door and went on about my business. i don't know, but i guess he went over there. mr. liebeler. how many pamphlets did this man have in his hand? mrs. garner. i don't know. you know how thin those things are, and he had a stack about that high. mr. liebeler. about inches or inches, maybe? mrs. garner. about that high. mr. liebeler. about the width of your hand? mrs. garner. yes. mr. liebeler. what color were they, do you remember? mrs. garner. that i can't remember. they looked like yellow and pink, all different colors. mr. liebeler. approximately how old was this fellow? mrs. garner. well, he was young. i don't believe he was young as oswald, but he was young, in his thirties i guess. mr. liebeler. was he as tall as oswald? mrs. garner. no, he was shorter. mr. liebeler. shorter than oswald? mrs. garner. yes. mr. liebeler. did he wear sunglasses, if you remember? mrs. garner. no, he didn't have sunglasses on because it was so late in the evening, just about dark. mr. liebeler. was he of a light build, or was he heavy set? mrs. garner. no, i wouldn't say. he wasn't light, wasn't heavy; he was in between that. mr. liebeler. did he have an accent, do you remember? mrs. garner. yes. that's why i said he was either spanish or cuban. i don't know. he speaks broken english, like. mr. liebeler. did you tell the fbi about this gentleman coming there? mrs. garner. yes. mr. liebeler. did you mention to the fbi that this man had---- mrs. garner. the pamphlets? mr. liebeler. the pamphlets. mrs. garner. yes. mr. liebeler. you told that to the fbi? mrs. garner. yes. mr. liebeler. do you remember approximately when this fellow came to see oswald? mrs. garner. that i don't remember. i know it was around that time, just right after he was picked up on canal street for distributing them. it was a few days after that. mr. liebeler. did you learn about his arrest? mrs. garner. yes. mr. liebeler. on canal street? mrs. garner. yes, i read it in the papers. mr. liebeler. you read about it in the newspaper? mrs. garner. yes. mr. liebeler. did you have any conversation with oswald about that incident? mrs. garner. no, i don't think i did myself. no, i didn't talk to him about that, because it was just before that happened on canal street he had put them on the screen and i had my husband take them down, and after that, that is when he was picked up on canal street. mr. liebeler. what was this incident with the screen? would you tell us about that? mrs. garner. those pamphlets, "hands off cuba," or something like that. he had pamphlets on the screen porch in the front, and i told my husband go take those things down, i didn't like them there. he went and told him to take them down, and he said who suggested that, and he said i did and he took them down and never gave us no trouble about it. mr. liebeler. let me show you a picture that is marked exhibit no. to the affidavit of your husband jesse j. garner, and i ask you if the leaflet that you see in that picture is a picture of a leaflet like the one oswald put on the screen? mrs. garner. yes, that's it. mr. liebeler. and do you recognize the person in that picture? mrs. garner. yes, that is lee oswald. i would recognize him from the back of his head. mr. liebeler. it appears to be a picture of him handing out pamphlets or sheets of paper on which appears the language, "hands off cuba," and some other writing that can't be read. mrs. garner. they had some other writing on the bottom, but i never read it. i saw this "hands off cuba," and i didn't like it on the porch and i made him take them down. that must have been taken on canal street; it looks like it. mr. liebeler. do you recognize the surrounding area, the background of the picture? mrs. garner. that's what i said, it looks like it. it is either canal or royal somewhere. i don't know. it might not be here; i don't know. mr. liebeler. you don't recognize the background for sure? mrs. garner. no. mr. liebeler. when this incident---- mrs. garner. let me get my glasses. maybe i can see better. mr. liebeler. when this incident concerning the leaflet on the screen of the porch occurred, was that before or after oswald had been arrested? mrs. garner. that was before. mr. liebeler. before he was arrested? mrs. garner. yes. mr. liebeler. how long before? mrs. garner. that i don't remember. i don't remember exactly all that, but i know--i can't very well see, but it looks like around here somewhere. mr. liebeler. aside from the two different people you have previously mentioned as having visited oswald, one the cuban or spanish fellow and the other two for a total of three people you saw come to visit oswald, did you ever see anybody else come to visit in his apartment? mrs. garner. not that i know of. mr. liebeler. late in september sometime, as i understand it, this station wagon that brought oswald's wife to the apartment in the first place returned? mrs. garner. yes; it did. mr. liebeler. did it not? mrs. garner. yes. mr. liebeler. did you see who was driving the station wagon at that time? mrs. garner. no; i didn't see who was driving it. all i saw was the station wagon. mr. liebeler. you never saw the person who came in the station wagon that time? mrs. garner. i did not. mr. liebeler. did your husband see that person? mrs. garner. yes; my husband. mr. liebeler. at this time. mrs. garner. yes; my husband saw her and spoke to her. i never did see her. mr. liebeler. he told you it was a lady, did he not? mrs. garner. right. mr. liebeler. and the lady, from reading the newspapers, you and your husband assumed that this was mrs. ruth paine of irving, tex.? mrs. garner. that's right. mr. liebeler. but you yourself never met or talked to mrs. paine? mrs. garner. i never did. mr. liebeler. did you become aware of the fact that oswald was employed during the time that he lived in your apartment? did you know anything about his job? mrs. garner. when he rented the apartment he told me he was working at reily coffee co. on magazine, whatever you call it. it is a coffee company, and as far as i know i didn't think he worked there as long as he did, because he was always home, unless he worked at night. mr. liebeler. when did you learn that oswald had been dismissed from the job, or no longer worked at reily coffee co., if you ever learned that? mrs. garner. i said, it seemed like when he rented the apartment, i didn't think he worked or weeks. well, but i learned later he didn't get laid off until july , something like that, unless they changed shifts, because he was working in the day at first and i used to see him get off the bus in the evening coming home, but then after that i didn't see him any more. he was always sitting on the screen porch reading. he must have been working at night. he was always on the side porch, probably reading all the time. mr. liebeler. you say he read a lot? mrs. garner. he sure did. mr. liebeler. did you see at any time what he was reading? mrs. garner. well, it always was books, like those pocket books and papers, real big books, regular books. mr. liebeler. you never saw the names of any of the books? mrs. garner. no; you couldn't get that near him. mr. liebeler. what else did he do with his spare time besides reading? mrs. garner. that's all i ever saw him do. to say if he ever went out or anything like that, he would go back and forth, catch the bus and go, and didn't stay long and come back. how many times he went out at night or anything like that, i don't know. i really couldn't tell you because i wasn't on that side. the few times i did see him i just happened to be out there. mr. liebeler. you mentioned something about him wearing a bathing suit. mrs. garner. that's all he always wore, all the time. always he had thongs on and yellow shorts, bathing trunks, and nothing on top walking around the yard like that. mr. liebeler. also the commission has been informed that oswald spent a considerable amount of time spraying bugs or insects of one sort or another. mrs. garner. he did. he done that, yes. he was always around the back of the house where the bathroom window was, spraying some sort, and the screen porch he would spray. mr. liebeler. did you ever talk to him about this spraying activity of his? mrs. garner. no; i never did. mr. liebeler. do you know whether your husband did? mrs. garner. no; he didn't. i don't guess he did; he never said anything about it, but there were plenty of ants and i guess that is why he was spraying. they always had a lot of ants, you know, and roaches. i know they had a lot of roaches. mr. liebeler. cockroaches? mrs. garner. in that apartment, when they left. mr. liebeler. did he ever complain to you about them? mrs. garner. no. we never had them before he moved. whenever we used to spray, we had the pest control, but when he moved out they had plenty of them. they left the place filthy, too. mr. liebeler. the place was dirty when he left? mrs. garner. was it? the icebox was broken, the freezer door was broken off, the stove was broken, the mattress was ruined. mr. liebeler. what was wrong with the mattress? mrs. garner. i guess the baby. mr. liebeler. do you know whether his wife, marina, liked the apartment? mrs. garner. i don't know. she never did say anything about it. mr. liebeler. she never did say anything about it? mrs. garner. i never did talk to her about any apartment. mr. liebeler. did you yourself personally see when this station wagon left? mrs. garner. no; i didn't see it. mr. liebeler. it arrived late in september ? mrs. garner. i didn't see when it left; no. mr. liebeler. when was the last time you saw the station wagon, please? mrs. garner. well, whatever day that was, sunday or monday, whenever they left. it was about that morning. like i said, early that morning they was packing it up, and then later on through the day between and i looked out there and it was gone. mr. liebeler. this would be either sunday or monday, september or ? is that right? mrs. garner. that's right. mr. liebeler. you are not exactly positive which it was? mrs. garner. i am not sure whether it was sunday or monday. mr. liebeler. your husband is pretty sure it was monday. mrs. garner. he is sure it was monday; yes. mr. liebeler. the d of september. mrs. garner. yes. mr. liebeler. and you have no recollection that is contrary to that; is that correct? mrs. garner. no; i haven't. mr. liebeler. did you see oswald leave, when he finally left the apartment? mrs. garner. no. mr. liebeler. do you know when he left? mrs. garner. well, i figure he left that same night, whatever day that wagon left, myself. i don't think he come back. he might have come back in that apartment to get his stuff, whatever he had. i don't think he stayed there that night at all, that's what i believe. mr. liebeler. your husband said in the discussion we had with him previously that he heard some noise in the apartment the night the station wagon left. mrs. garner. he might have heard him packing up stuff getting ready to leave. i don't think he come back after he left that night; i think he left that night. mr. liebeler. your husband did say he thought he heard these noises about or : in the evening. is that right? mrs. garner. yes. mr. liebeler. you say you think the noise he heard was just the noise of oswald getting his stuff and leaving? mrs. garner. yes; getting his stuff to get moving. mr. liebeler. in any event, you never saw oswald around the place at all after the day the station wagon left; is that right? mrs. garner. no; i didn't. mr. liebeler. did you discuss with anybody who lived in the neighborhood or in the apartment house when actually oswald did leave? when we think about this question, let's first of all confine ourselves to the period of time prior to the assassination. were you concerned about when oswald left or how he left, prior to the time of the assassination? mrs. garner. you mean how he left? mr. liebeler. that is, did you talk to any of the neighbors or anybody in the building? mrs. garner. when they seen him leave? mr. liebeler. did they see him go? mrs. garner. yes. i don't remember asking anybody, just figured that he had skipped and left that night. i didn't bother asking anybody about that, but later i was talking to mr. rogers, one of the tenants, and he said yes, he seen him leave about that time that evening, the bus was coming and he ran out with his suitcase. mr. liebeler. that was after the assassination, you talked to mr. rogers? mrs. garner. yes; definitely after. mr. liebeler. after you had been interviewed by the fbi and secret service? mrs. garner. yes. mr. liebeler. mr. rogers--what is his full name; do you know? mrs. garner. eric rogers; is all i know. mr. liebeler. does he still live there? mrs. garner. yes. mr. liebeler. mr. rogers told you he saw oswald the same evening that the station wagon left? is that right? mrs. garner. yes. mr. liebeler. and he saw oswald come out of the apartment house and run to catch a bus? mrs. garner. yes. mr. liebeler. is that right? mrs. garner. yes. mr. liebeler. and it was about dark? mrs. garner. yes. mr. liebeler. did mr. rogers say how many suitcases oswald had in his hand? mrs. garner. he just said with his suitcases or suitcase. i don't remember exactly what he said. mr. liebeler. you are not able to tell us whether oswald had one suitcase, two suitcases with him when he left, or what? mrs. garner. no. mr. liebeler. and mr. rogers didn't tell you? mrs. garner. no; i didn't ask him. i don't remember. i don't remember, really if it was the same day the station wagon left or not he told me, and i don't think he even said that day it was, but it must have been right after that, you know, what night or the next day. i feel like it was that night. it must have been, because i know he didn't have any reason to stay around there any longer. mr. liebeler. mr. rogers didn't specifically say it was the same day? mrs. garner. no. mr. liebeler. did he ever say what kind of luggage oswald had? mrs. garner. no. mr. liebeler. you never saw oswald with any suitcases of any kind? mrs. garner. i never was in the apartment. after they rented the apartment, i never went in the apartment. mr. liebeler. and you never saw him outside with any luggage? mrs. garner. no. mr. liebeler. and you never saw what kind of luggage they were packing in the station wagon? mrs. garner. i saw boxes, but i never did see any luggage. i saw boxes, and baby beds and playpens and stuff like that. mr. liebeler. but you don't remember noticing any specific suitcase of any kind? mrs. garner. no. mr. liebeler. did you form an opinion as to whether marina oswald could speak english or not? mrs. garner. well, i didn't think she could speak english at all. when i heard her on television say a few words, something like that, i was surprised because at home she never said anything. and another thing, she would nod, try to tell you hello when he wasn't there, but if he was there like they was sitting on the steps or something, or they would go through the drive and he was there, she wouldn't even look at you. mr. liebeler. she was more friendly and outgoing when oswald wasn't there? mrs. garner. yes; when he was there, she wouldn't have nothing to say. mr. liebeler. did you ever see a rifle or gun of any kind in the apartment, or around the apartment? mrs. garner. no. mr. liebeler. or the station wagon, or just anywhere? mrs. garner. no, sir. mr. liebeler. you never had any reason to believe that oswald had a rifle in his possession? mrs. garner. no; i never knew about that, never saw anything looked like a gun or anything like that. like i said, they have asked me that so many times before, and they just packed this station wagon and if he had a gun i don't guess he put it where anybody could see it, and whatever was in the station wagon could have been, i mean anything with value, because they took a few days packing it to leave and it sat out there at night on the street. mr. liebeler. without locking, or do you know whether they locked the station wagon? mrs. garner. i don't know whether they locked it, but that don't do much good in this city. it don't do any good to lock your doors; what good does it do? i nail mine; that is better yet. mr. liebeler. did you discuss with anybody besides mr. rogers whether or not oswald left on the same day his wife did, or how he left? mrs. garner. do you mean in the neighborhood? mr. liebeler. yes. mrs. garner. i never talked too much to them, you know, unless i might be talking to miss eames next door and said he might have left that same night or something like that, but that's about all. mr. liebeler. was that mrs. eames? mrs. garner. yes. mr. liebeler. mrs. doris e. eames? mrs. garner. yes. mr. liebeler. she lives at magazine street? mrs. garner. yes; right next to oswald's apartment, in other words, and their kitchen windows was even to each other, across from each other. mr. liebeler. did oswald get any mail that you know of while he lived in the apartment or magazine street? mrs. garner. not that i know of. i never went around the mailboxes to find out that, never went around the mailbox to see what kind of mail, and after he left i checked the mailbox and my husband found a light and gas bill and sent it back to the company. mr. liebeler. i believe you said oswald actually owed you about weeks' rent when they left. is that right? mrs. garner. fifteen days, something like that, or weeks. i think it was weeks' rent, because the last time when i sent my husband to see about the rent, i told him it was going to be weeks, and, "you know he isn't going to catch up with that and pay another month's rent and stay here by himself." mr. liebeler. he moved in on the th of may; is that right? mrs. garner. yes. mr. liebeler. and he left about the d of september or the d? mrs. garner. about the d or d. mr. liebeler. so he would have had to pay up the rent through the th of september? mrs. garner. through the th, the th of september; that was when. mr. liebeler. that was when the rent came due again? mrs. garner. right. mr. liebeler. and he paid his rent for the month? mrs. garner. you see, he was paid up to the th of september. mr. liebeler. he was paid through the th of september? mrs. garner. right; and after the th he started on another month but never paid me. mr. liebeler. he left owing rent for the period from september until the time he left? mrs. garner. the th or d, whatever date it was. mr. liebeler. do you know mr. louis n. rico? mrs. garner. yes; i think that is my tenant in the back in the detached apartment, away in the back downstairs, louis rico. mr. liebeler. they don't live there any more? mrs. garner. no; they moved. mr. liebeler. do you know whether they had anything to do with oswald? mrs. garner. no; he never did talk to him. oswald wouldn't bother with nobody. mr. liebeler. did you ever see oswald drive a car? mrs. garner. no. mr. liebeler. do you know whether he could drive? mrs. garner. no; i couldn't answer that. i don't know. mr. liebeler. you had no way of knowing where oswald went when he left your apartment house, do you? mrs. garner. no; i sure don't. mr. liebeler. as far as you know, oswald intended to stay on in the apartment, at least that is what he had told your husband? mrs. garner. that's what i figured all the time, and every time i passed he was sitting on the porch, or either sitting by the lamp inside of the living room when it was dark, reading. mr. liebeler. can you think of anything else you remember about oswald? is there anything else you know about him that the commission ought to know that i have not asked you about? mrs. garner. well, like i say, every time i talk, i tried to think, and there is really nothing. i just usually always stay by myself and never go to the door unless i have to. the only thing is--i did hear a couple of times like they were arguing and she would be crying. i guess they were arguing, i couldn't understand the russian language and she would be crying, and that went on a couple of hours at a time, and i figured that was family trouble. i couldn't even understand what they were saying. mr. liebeler. did they seem to have more family trouble than most people, or do you think they got along fairly well? mrs. garner. it is just about twice i heard it in the months they were there. mr. liebeler. you didn't have the impression---- mrs. garner. i didn't think they was arguing, because when they talk that language it sounds like they are arguing all the time to me, but those two times she happened to be crying, and i could hear her raising her voice higher and him too. he was just abrupt. mr. liebeler. you didn't have the impression they were having any particular difficulty with their marriage, did you? mrs. garner. no. mr. liebeler. they didn't seem to have---- mrs. garner. it didn't seem that way to me. you never did see them together in the daytime. i saw them once when they left for that weekend, and that is the only time they had left there together. mr. liebeler. she stayed at home pretty much? mrs. garner. she stayed home all the time, and i see her coming from the grocery store once in awhile. mr. liebeler. i don't believe i have any more questions at this time, mrs. garner, if you can't think of anything else you would like to add. i think we can terminate the deposition. i do want to thank you for the patience that you and your husband have shown to me and for the cooperation you have given us in coming down here and testifying. on behalf of the commission i want to thank you both very much. mrs. garner. i am only too glad to do it. anything else we can do, it would be all right. affidavit of jesse j. garner the following affidavit was executed by jesse j. garner on may , . affidavit president's commission on the assassination of president john f. kennedy state of louisiana, _parish of orleans, ss_: jesse j. garner, being duly sworn says: . my name is jesse james garner. i was born july , , in hattiesburg, mississippi. i have resided in new orleans for the last years. . i am presently employed as a cab driver for toye brothers and have been so employed for the last twenty years. . my wife and i reside at magazine street, new orleans, louisiana, where we have resided continuously for the last four years. . number magazine street consists of one-half of a house located at - magazine street. the other half of the house is divided into two apartments which go by the number and magazine street. . lee harvey oswald occupied the apartment known as magazine street from may , , to on or about september , . he paid a rental of $ . per month for the apartment, which was furnished, and was directly responsible to the utility company for payment of gas and electric bills. . i first talked to oswald about a month after he moved into the apartment. i spoke to him about payment of the rent, because he was a few days late in paying his rent for the second month he lived in the apartment. he told me he would have the rent in a few days. i later learned that he did pay the rent to my wife shortly thereafter. . oswald appeared to be a quiet sort of man and i did not talk to him about anything other than the rent that first time that i met him. . sometime after that, my wife called to my attention that oswald had attached to the screen of his porch two hand circulars which read something to the effect that the united states should lay hands off cuba. these circulars were about " by ". . i have examined a photograph which has been marked as exhibit no. to this affidavit and state that the photograph shows oswald handing out a circular which is of the same kind he had attached to the screen of his porch. . i asked oswald to remove the circulars and he asked me who "rejects" to them. i told him that i objected to them and that i was the only person who had to object to them. oswald then took them down without further comment and the subject was never mentioned between us again. . the next and last time i talked to oswald was on sunday morning, september , , when i noticed he had almost finished packing a station wagon with his family's personal belongings. i asked him if he was moving, since i was concerned that he then owed about days rent. oswald told me that he was not leaving but that his wife was going to texas to have her baby after which she was going to return to new orleans. . i did not see the station wagon leave, but i believe it left for texas sometime on monday morning, september , , but it could have left sometime on sunday morning. . i didn't pay too much attention to the station wagon or to what oswald was doing, because i thought he was going to remain in the apartment, as he had said. . i never saw oswald again after my conversation with him on sunday morning, but i thought i heard him in his apartment during the evening (about : to : p.m.) of the day on which the station wagon had left, i.e., either sunday or monday, september or , . . i did not see or hear any activity in the apartment on the day after the station wagon left for texas. the next day which i believe would have been wednesday, september , , i entered oswald's apartment and found that he had left and taken all of his belongings with him. . i never personally observed anyone visit oswald or his family during the time they lived at the above address. . oswald never seemed to respond to greetings from me and seemed to be an unfriendly type of person. signed on may , , at new orleans, la. (s) jesse j. garner, jesse j. garner. testimony of richard leroy hulen the testimony of richard leroy hulen was taken at : a.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. albert e. jenner, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. robert t. davis, assistant attorney general of texas, was present. mr. jenner. will you please stand up and be sworn? mr. hulen. yes. mr. jenner. do you swear that in the testimony you are about to give you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? mr. hulen. i do. mr. jenner. state your name, please. mr. hulen. richard leroy hulen. mr. jenner. and you are connected with the ymca? mr. hulen. correct. mr. jenner. in what capacity? mr. hulen. i am the associate director of the health club. mr. jenner. and you are appearing in lieu of whom? mr. hulen. mr. john f. campbell. mr. jenner. and he is the head of the health club, i take it? mr. hulen. correct. mr. jenner. and at present he is out of the city? mr. hulen. correct. mr. jenner. the ymca that we are talking about is located where? mr. hulen. at south ervay in dallas, tex. mr. jenner. we are in the federal court house. how far away is that from here? mr. hulen. two blocks. mr. jenner. i should say to you, mr. hulen, that i am albert e. jenner, jr., a member of the legal staff of the president's commission, that the commission was authorized pursuant to senate joint resolution , as the group to investigate the tragedy of november , , of the assassination of the late president john fitzgerald kennedy, and president johnson in executive order , shortly after the adoption of the senate joint resolution, appointed the commission and authorized it to proceed and to take testimony and swear witnesses. we have been engaged in this investigation now for sometime and we are particularly interested in a man known as lee harvey oswald. it is our understanding that he was a guest on some occasion at the ymca that you have identified. would you describe your duties and those of mr. campbell and describe the health club, and i should also add we are interested in a man by the name of jack ruby or jack rubenstein, and i may ask you some questions about him as well. mr. hulen. well, of course, mr. campbell is in charge of the department. he does the hiring and the firing of the employees, orders supplies and supervises the operation in general and i take my orders from him. mr. jenner. you are his assistant? mr. hulen. i am the assistant. mr. jenner. how long have you been associated with the ymca? mr. hulen. well, since . mr. jenner. and during--you were doing this work at the downtown ymca? mr. hulen. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and the health club is what sort of activity? mr. hulen. the health club is a businessmen's club. we have seven masseurs, we have a steam bath, we have a dry heat bath, we have ultraviolet lights and infrared lights, bar bell equipment and a lot of gymnasium equipment, such as jumping ropes and bicycles and bar bells and medicine balls and stall bars and check weights and i could go on and on. mr. jenner. i think that's enough. you have businessmen who come in, do they join the club or pay a fee? mr. hulen. yes; we have a yearly membership fee. mr. jenner. if some guest who is a guest of the ymca, wants to have a rubdown, let us say, or he wants to exercise, is it possible for him to use the facilities of the health club without paying the yearly fee? mr. hulen. not without paying a fee. he is a member if he lives in the dormitory--he is a member of the ymca, but not of the health club. so, if he uses our facilities, he pays for them, whatever it might be--ultraviolet; steam bath or massage, and would you want the prices? mr. jenner. off the record. (discussion between counsel jenner and mr. davis off the record, pertaining to facilities and services at the ymca.) mr. jenner. all right. back on the record. referring to these yearly members, do you become acquainted with them? mr. hulen. most of them. mr. jenner. did you become acquainted during your history with the ymca with a man in town here known as jack ruby or jack rubinstein? mr. hulen. yes, sir; i did. mr. jenner. was he a member of your club? mr. hulen. yes; he was. mr. jenner. and you have produced here for me a photostatic copy of what is entitled and identified for the record, "membership application," and it appears to be on its face a photostatic copy of a membership application for one jack ruby. from where did you obtain that exhibit? mr. hulen. from the membership office. mr. jenner. and this card, of which the document i have in my hands is a photostatic copy, is a record which is kept in the usual and regular course of business? mr. hulen. yes; that's correct. mr. jenner. do you know of your personal knowledge that this is a photo copy of the original of the membership application and card which is maintained and is presently in the possession of the ymca? mr. hulen. yes; i do. mr. jenner. now, i would like to have you explain some of the things here for me--on the form, which has been marked hulen exhibit no. , under the printed designation, "firm name," appears as typed, "club vegas," sir. would you explain what that is? mr. hulen. i think if you will look at it a little closer, that is his business address. mr. jenner. that is the business address of jack ruby or jack rubinstein. club vegas is some kind of a club here in dallas? mr. hulen. yes, sir. mr. jenner. all right, or at least it was at the time this application was made out? mr. hulen. yes, sir. and is still operating, incidentally. mr. jenner. and it says opposite, "type of membership,"--there appear two initials, "sh" what do they signify? mr. hulen. special health. mr. jenner. what does that mean? mr. hulen. that means all of the facilities will be available to that member except the massages. mr. jenner. on the reverse side of the card there appears the heading, "membership account," and then there are columns in which there are long hand entries. these columns are headed, "date due, amount, payments, card," and some entries. for example, for purposes of explanation, the first entry on the reverse side on this form i have described under "date due," appears - - . i take it that is a date meaning september , ? mr. hulen. yes, sir. mr. jenner. in the next column which is headed "amount," there appears $ . then under "payments," that column is split in two--the left hand one reads and is headed by the word "date," and the entry there is - . i assume that is september , but no year, and then under the column headed, "amount," appears $ . would you explain that type entry? mr. hulen. well, at the time, in , our membership fee for the special health club membership was $ , and there is a $ cash saving if a member pays cash, which would indicate that that's where we get our amount $ , and to receive benefit of the cash payment, that is, the interest or penalty, it is supposed to be paid in days, but apparently this wasn't paid in days, but he still received benefit of cash payment. mr. jenner. does that form indicate that the health fee was paid? mr. hulen. oh, yes; yes, indeed. mr. jenner. it was paid--on what date? mr. hulen. it was - - , the last payment. the first payment was made on - - , wait a minute, i am wrong. it was then when he joined, the first payment was - . in other words, that - was their billing date and he joined on - and they billed him on - , and his second payment which was supposed to have been paid in days was paid on - - . i'm sorry, but i'm not too familiar with this. i'm just groping here myself. this is handled in another office. you will notice that the date due here was - - , again, you see, and this will denote what happened and his next is--there are several periods that he wasn't active, as you will notice there. mr. jenner. yes; i noticed it. now, it would appear that the first two columns, the date due and amount represent entries of sums to be paid? mr. hulen. correct. mr. jenner. and the second set of columns under the heading "payments," indicates payments that were made? mr. hulen. that's correct. mr. jenner. now, as to this initial fee, it was due on the th of september , in the amount of $ , and then in the next two columns that he paid on september , $ , and he paid on november , $ or a total then by that time of $ , that had been billed or was to have been paid by september ? mr. hulen. yes, sir. mr. jenner. he actually completed his payment on november ? mr. hulen. yes, sir. mr. jenner. then, the next entry appears to be one of $ for the following year, that is for , due on november , , and then there is an entry under the "payments," column of the receipt of $ , on the d of october, that is, there was a prepayment there in . then, for , the "due date," was april , --$ . apparently your fee went up? mr. hulen. yes; it did. mr. jenner. and there are entries of two payments, one a $ on the th of april , and the second of $ , on the d of august , so he was then paid up? mr. hulen. yes. mr. jenner. and for , there is an entry of a payment due on the st of june , of $ and there is an entry of apparently a prepayment on the d of may , of $ . what does that indicate, that is, here for , he was a $ member and in , he appears to be only a $ member? mr. hulen. oh, i've got it now. if a person for some reason cannot take out the yearly membership and he has been a member in the past, we would let him have a -month membership which would explain the $ . at that date he was on the -month membership. mr. jenner. i see. mr. hulen. a short-term membership, we call it. mr. jenner. at the bottom of this form there is written, "do not renew," - - , meaning november , . what does that mean? mr. hulen. mr. urquhart, who is our office secretary, laughingly told the stenographer in the membership office that if ruby ever came back for a membership, not to let him in, not to accept his membership, and she wrote that on there just for her own information. actually, it was a joke. mr. jenner. if he had returned to renew his membership, the renewal would have been granted him? mr. hulen. no. mr. jenner. it would not have been? mr. hulen. no. mr. jenner. why is that? mr. hulen. i don't know, mr. urquhart made the statement that it is, it was---- mr. jenner. well, i'll try to bring that out, is the entry "do not renew," of november , , is that something in jest? mr. hulen. yes, sir. in my opinion, i think he was just being facetious. mr. jenner. mr. urquhart was being facetious? mr. hulen. mr. urquhart was being facetious. mr. jenner. in any event, mr. ruby did not renew his membership? mr. hulen. no, sir. mr. jenner. in ? mr. hulen. not to my knowledge. mr. jenner. "j.c.", i assume is john campbell? mr. hulen. correct. mr. jenner. and there appears at the very bottom of the form opposite an asterisk, which in turn refers us to the initial entry fee, there appears in writing, "wants to pay up in month's time. okay, j.c." that indicates to me, and would you confirm or correct me that when ruby joined initially he asked for time to pay up and wanted a month to pay up. mr. hulen. i think that means that if he made the complete payment of the yearly membership in payments within days, that he would receive benefit of the discount. mr. jenner. i see, and the fact is he didn't pay up within days, his payment, first payment was made on the d of september of $ , and his second payment of $ , was made on november , , so you gave him the benefit of the discount even though he didn't pay up in the days? mr. hulen. yes; that explains---- mr. jenner. so, he had a full year $ membership for the year , that is, year from the time he joined which was september , , and he rejoined at the same rate on--$ , a year, on november , , and then in , he had a $ membership, which was really an increase in your charge? mr. hulen. that's right. mr. jenner. for year commencing october , --but he didn't get around to paying it, apparently until the following spring, which was the $ , on the th of april and the $ , on the d of august, and then on june , , he took out a -month or a -day short term membership? mr. hulen. yes; a short-term membership. mr. jenner. that expired on september st of that year, is that correct? mr. hulen. that's correct. mr. jenner. i offer hulen exhibit no. in evidence. did ruby ever live at the ymca? mr. hulen. not to my knowledge. mr. jenner. do you know whether the records of the ymca have been checked to determine or confirm that? mr. hulen. no, sir; i don't. mr. jenner. but as--at least as far as your personal recollection is concerned, you do not recall his ever having been a guest in what you call the dormitory? mr. hulen. no, sir; i don't. mr. jenner. i take it you recall mr. ruby using the health club facilities? mr. hulen. yes, sir; i do--very well. mr. jenner. and do you ever recall having any contact with or seeing a person known as lee harvey oswald? mr. hulen. no, sir. mr. jenner. at the suggestion of mr. sorrels, of the secret service, have you caused an examination to be made of the guest record of the ymca to determine whether a person by the name of lee harvey oswald or lee oswald was ever a guest at the ymca? mr. hulen. i wouldn't be in a position to know--i'm not familiar enough with that and i have nothing whatsoever to do with it so i don't know what has been done or what has been requested. mr. jenner. you have brought to me today a longhand sheet which appears on ruled notepaper and is what purports to be a list of registrations for one lee oswald during the year , and another entry, one for the year , hulen exhibit no. . from whom and from what source did you obtain this document? mr. hulen. from mr. mcree's secretary, who is the resident manager. mr. jenner. mcree is the resident manager? mr. hulen. mr. mcree is the resident manager. mr. jenner. and his secretary furnished you this slip of paper? mr. hulen. that's correct. mr. jenner. did she advise you from what source she obtained these entries? mr. hulen. i made the entries myself from her records of the payments. mr. jenner. i understand--you prepared this and it is in your handwriting? mr. hulen. that is correct; yes. mr. jenner. and from what source did you obtain the information on this piece of paper? mr. hulen. from her receipts of payment for room rent. mr. jenner. and those are records that are kept by the ymca in the usual and regular course of business? mr. hulen. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and you personally examined them? mr. hulen. yes, sir. mr. jenner. did you find, when you personally examined those receipt records, any receipts in the name of a person named lee oswald. mr. hulen. yes, sir. mr. jenner. you actually saw on the receipts the name "lee oswald"? mr. hulen. i sure did. yes, sir; i did. mr. jenner. and then you have listed under the first heading of "lee oswald," a series of dates, october , october , october , and october , , in each instance. then, in parentheses following those entries in the the same sequences appears the name burge and the name burgess and the name burge again and then the name barker. following those in the same descending sequence are serial numbers: "l- ." in your last column and in the same sequence are dollar figures: " . , . , . and again . ." now, would you explain those entries, please? mr. hulen. well, he checked in on - - . mr. jenner. that is lee oswald? mr. hulen. lee oswald check in on - - . the desk clerk at that time was a mr. burge, and the l- , was the number of the receipt which was given lee oswald, and the amount of $ . , was $ . for the night's lodging and $ deposit on the room key, which is refunded when it is returned to the front desk. shall i go on? mr. jenner. yes. and then there is an additional set of entries below those we have now described and they read, "lee oswald, [spelling] t-o-r-o, calif.," and the next line october , ----barker? mr. hulen. barker was the desk clerk, and the m- was the number of the receipt and $ . was the room fee and a $ deposit on the key. mr. jenner. now, those entries record the fact then that oswald was a guest at the ymca october th through october th, both inclusive, and again on october , ? mr. hulen. through october th, i believe it is, isn't it? mr. jenner. it shows he was a guest at the ymca october , , , , and , of , and again on october and to october , of ? mr. hulen. that's correct. mr. jenner. now, the examination of the receipts for lodging of guests at the ymca reveal only those entries you have now described and are listed on this sheet of paper with respect to lee oswald? mr. hulen. that's correct. mr. jenner. the years--during the years and ? mr. hulen. correct. mr. jenner. and had he been a guest and registered in on any other occasion during the years and , would there have been and would there be now a registration entry and a receipt for payment of the character you have described? mr. hulen. yes, sir; i am sure there would be. mr. jenner. now, we would like the ymca to furnish us photostatic copies of those five receipts just as you have furnished us a photostatic copy of mr. ruby's membership application. mr. hulen. i would be glad to do it. mr. jenner. we would appreciate it very much. mr. hulen. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and if we can have those this afternoon, we would like it. mr. hulen. i'm sure we can arrange it and give them to you. shall i bring them right here? mr. jenner. yes; please do and we will give them to miss oliver and she can incorporate them in the transcript. i offer hulen exhibit no. . to be best of your recollection and drawing on whatever knowledge you have, you don't recall anybody by that name, lee oswald, ever having used the health club facilities? mr. hulen. no, sir; not to my knowledge. mr. jenner. and you know jack ruby well enough--do you recall this person lee oswald ever having been in the company of jack ruby at the ymca? mr. hulen. no, sir. mr. jenner. you have seen pictures of lee oswald on television and in newspapers and magazines? mr. hulen. yes, sir; i have. mr. jenner. and that person is clear in your mind--do you recall his physical characteristics? mr. hulen. yes, sir; i do. mr. jenner. so that you are able to say with a reasonable degree of certainty, so far as you are concerned, that you never saw that person using the health club facilities and you never saw him in the company of jack ruby? mr. hulen. that is correct. mr. jenner. tell us what kind of a fellow ruby was? mr. hulen. well, i found---- mr. jenner. in your general impression? mr. hulen. i found jack ruby to be friendly and courteous and a well-behaved person. he seemed to have a lot of enthusiasm about anything that he liked. he generated a lot of enthusiasm around that. for instance, any athletic events or sports he discussed--he discussed that with the other members, which is the usual topic of well-known weight lifters, for instance, there are several--reeves and stanko and i can name several of them. mr. jenner. was ruby a weight lifter? did he dabble at that? mr. hulen. well, i should define weight lifting and body building. weight lifting is competing, like you have in the olympics, which is heavy lifting. in other words, you go to your maximum. now, in body building, you take a minimum amount of weight and exercise longer--in other words, if you work with the heavy weights you can't work as long with the heavy weights as you can with the lighter weights, and ruby was more of a body builder. in other words, he worked with the lighter weights over a longer period of time. in other words, he was not after, in my opinion, he wasn't after a large body or bulging muscle, he just wanted to stay in a good general physical condition. it wasn't necessary for me to set up any kind of a program for him. he had had experience in the past and he knew pretty well what he wanted to do, so actually there was very little, if any, supervision on my part. he used the facilities and behaved very well and i found him to be a nice person to talk to--to visit with. mr. jenner. all right, sir. leave the deposition open for the moment, miss oliver, because mr. hulen will return with the photostatic copies of those records and we will close his deposition when we take care of that. mr. hulen. now, i will be tied up until about . would : or o'clock be agreeable with you? mr. jenner. o'clock is fine. (at this point the witness hulen left the deposing room, the proceedings of the deposition to be resumed at p.m., of this same date, april , , and were resumed as follows:) mr. jenner. mr. hulen has kindly returned this afternoon with copies of the receipts to which he made reference in his testimony and of which he supplied a longhand list on ruled notebook paper, hulen exhibit no. . now that we have the originals, we can substitute them. they are five in number, and i identified them as entitled "receipts young men's christian association of dallas downtown branch." they are signed respectively by "burge [spelling] b-u-r-g-e" and "barker." we will work them in order of dates, as hulen exhibits nos. , , , and , and the receipt of october as hulen exhibit no. . i take it they were desk clerks? mr. hulen. the desk clerks. mr. jenner. mr. burge registered in mr. oswald on october , , is that correct? mr. hulen. that's correct--yes, sir. mr. jenner. and the receipt shows the room number, room no. . does that indicate the room to which he was assigned? mr. hulen. yes. mr. jenner. and then there is $ . , and underneath, opposite that, "deposit--$ , total $ . ." and that represents the charge for the room and key deposit you testified about this morning? mr. hulen. yes; that's correct. mr. jenner. the next one is dated october , , also--name: lee oswald, same room, $ . , initialed, however--it looks like "hb", or is this "w. burgess." mr. hulen. correct; burgess. mr. jenner. he is also a registration clerk or desk clerk? mr. hulen. yes, sir. mr. jenner. the next is dated the th of october , in the name of lee oswald, the same room number, $ . , signed by mr. burge, whom we have already identified. the next is dated october , , the same name--lee oswald, same room number, same amount, but this time signed by just one word "barker." is this a mr. barker or miss barker? mr. hulen. yes--mr. barker. mr. jenner. is he also a room clerk or registration clerk? mr. hulen. yes; he is. mr. jenner. and the last in this series is dated october , , and in this instance it is in the name of lee h. oswald, and it shows an address, whereas, none of the other of the first four had an address, and the address is listed here as toro [spelling] t-o-r-o, calif. [spelling] c-a-l. i notice something on the first of the series which i notice again on this one of october , , which is the printing on the line entitled, "membership fees," and there is the word written in longhand, "service." that's true of the first and the last of these receipts--what does that indicate? mr. hulen. that indicates that he was a serviceman and that, in my opinion, that waives the membership fee. mr. jenner. the room number on the october receipt is . that, as in the case of the others, indicates the room to which he was assigned? mr. hulen. yes. mr. jenner. on this visit on october ? mr. hulen. yes, sir. mr. jenner. that line says, "room to / ," meaning october , i assume. mr. hulen. i imagine--yes, sir. mr. jenner. $ . is shown for the room and a dollar for the key deposit, which i take it means he was charged $ . for that room , for day or night, plus a dollar to cover the key deposit? mr. hulen. yes, sir--that's correct. mr. jenner. i think that concludes mr. hulen's deposition. i offer hulen exhibits nos. to , both inclusive. and we may close the deposition at this point. mr. hulen, i didn't mention this this morning, but you may read over your deposition when miss oliver has completed it and if you will call in to the u.s. attorney's office here, mr. barefoot sanders or his secretary will know when it is ready for you to read it. mr. hulen. all right, sir. mr. jenner. and if you have any corrections, we would like to have them and then you sign the deposition, or you may waive the signature now, if you wish. mr. hulen. all right, i will waive the signature. testimony of colin barnhorst the testimony of colin barnhorst was taken at : a.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. albert e. jenner, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. robert t. davis, assistant attorney general of texas, was present. mr. jenner. please stand and be sworn. do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? mr. barnhorst. i do. mr. jenner. mr. barnhorst, i am albert e. jenner, jr., a member of the legal staff of the president's commission which was authorized to be created by senate joint resolution , and president johnson in executive order , appointed the commission and specified its powers pursuant to the legislation i have just identified to you. the duties of the commission are to investigate the assassination of president john fitzgerald kennedy on the nd of november . and that entails our inquiry into various facts and circumstances and incidents, some of them involving a man known as lee harvey oswald. we understand that mr. oswald was a guest at the ymca here in downtown dallas, and we would like to ask you a question or two in that respect. mr. jenner. what is your age, by the way? mr. barnhorst. twenty-one. mr. jenner. are you employed by the downtown ymca here in dallas? mr. barnhorst. yes. mr. jenner. that is located where? mr. barnhorst. north ervay. mr. jenner. when did your employment commence? mr. barnhorst. october . mr. jenner. what year? mr. barnhorst. . mr. jenner. state the nature of that employment and your hours? mr. barnhorst. desk clerk and mainly checking in and out guests--that is the primary duty and my duties involve making change and the usual reports and things like that. my hours are from to midnight nights a week. mr. jenner. in the afternoon until midnight nights a week? mr. barnhorst. then on friday night--midnight to saturday morning a.m. every week, and every other week from midnight to a.m., on thursday night, so i alternate days and days. the particular week of all this i had worked thursday night also. mr. jenner. were you on duty at any time so as to bring to your attention the fact that lee harvey oswald was or had become a guest at the ymca? mr. barnhorst. you mean at the time---- mr. jenner. at the time. mr. barnhorst. well, i wasn't working there when he was a guest. i know when he was there, but i wasn't working there. mr. jenner. that's right. have you personally examined the records of the ymca in that respect? mr. barnhorst. yes. mr. jenner. and those records are of what character? mr. barnhorst. they are a daily report on transients in and out with permanents in and out and the number of rooms, and a copy goes to the residence manager and a copy stays at the household and a copy is sent to and, well, it is placed on our desk copy. mr. jenner. and have you examined those records for both the years and ? mr. barnhorst. no; only the month of october . mr. jenner. only the month of october . in examining that month did you examine each day of the month, that is, the records relating to each day of that month? mr. barnhorst. originally--yes, and i have looked at them also, actually, i guess for september, because i had stayed there one night and i had looked back to see which room i was in and i was just curious and in looking back--later on--i saw there was a lee h. oswald. he was in room , because i looked at it last night after the man called me and it is still on the desk. mr. jenner. he occupied the room when? mr. barnhorst. until the morning or early part of the afternoon of the th of october. i say that because the clerk who was on was eva marshall. her name was beside the checkout. so, she was the one who would have checked him out and she works on the day shift and at that time she was working day shift and that would have been about days, i guess, before i went to work there and she was filling in there because the clerk had quit, which is why they hired me. i don't know who the clerk was. i only found the checkout, i didn't ever see the check-in--i think i did see it one time. and i think it was october , the day before. mr. jenner. the check-in was october ? mr. barnhorst. i remember that from sometime ago, but i just happened to see the checkout. mr. jenner. tell me what kind of records you keep--you keep a receipt? mr. barnhorst. well, maybe i can describe these when he checks in to see step by step what happens, because there is a little blue card with a stub on it and we call this a transient register card. he fills in his name and the phone number and membership, if any, and a number of other details, if it has anything to do with such as when his membership expires, if he is in the service, his service number or some other things, and then we fill out a triplicate receipt for his room rent. in this case he paid for night and then we give him a receipt and a receipt stays in the register and a receipt goes in the drawer and, of course, we fill out the rest of the stub--the receipt number, the amount paid, and we fill out his name and his room number on the stub and the price of it and so forth for the operator to put his name up on the board, and he came in fairly early on the d, because the operator---- mr. jenner. what is the board you mentioned something now about? you mentioned something new. mr. barnhorst. this is a board we have for locating anyone in the building at that time, who is staying in the building. it is a pbx machine and is in the nature of a board up on the wall and it has several sections. it is a flip-type board and you put a little narrow slip of paper with their name and room number on it. that's for the telephone operator. now, he must have come in fairly early on the d, if he came in in the evening, because in fact, he did come in in the evening. mr. barker checked him in because i know the evening operator typed his name in and so that would place him coming in in the evening sometime before o'clock, because that's about when she leaves, and after that they are typed up by the--either the night clerk or the next operator in the morning. then, in the evening, it is put on a ledger sheet and we have two types--we have one for the permanent guests for their personal account, and for just general transients that pass through, we have a group account. we just put the last name and the amount paid and whether or not they paid a membership fee. and, i might mention he didn't pay a membership fee when he came in. there is only two ways a person can pay that and that is either be in the service or have a membership card and i don't think he was registered as a member. he may have tried to pass himself off as a serviceman, but that's just in passing--that's not on the record--but--then, we make this daily report which is what i saw his name on last night. that is a long sheet and it has a list of room numbers in numerical order and then the name of the person who checked into that room that day and anybody who checked out of the room that day, and any transfers. mr. jenner. mr. hulen, when he testified a few moments ago, testified with respect to his having checked over receipts showing payment for lodging and he assembled a list and he is going to obtain photostatic copies of them and return them this afternoon and return with them. are you returning to the ymca after you leave here? mr. barnhorst. no, i can--it's just across the street. mr. jenner. well, i would appreciate it if you would speak with mr. hulen who made copies of the entries from the records--i would like to have in addition to the copies of the receipts, photostatic copies of the registration card you have mentioned. mr. barnhorst. yes. mr. jenner. and this is a check-in card, did you call it a check-in card? mr. barnhorst. a transient register card, and do you want the daily report? mr. jenner. yes. mr. barnhorst. how about this one in our ledger book? mr. jenner. i would like that as well. mr. barnhorst. because the clerk would be mr. michaels, depending on what night of the week it was. probably mr. michaels--chances are it was he that made out that report. he is not with us now, but he didn't report any membership fee paid at the time. mr. jenner. and that would indicate that none was paid? mr. barnhorst. yes. mr. jenner. is there a difference in charge or rate for a room depending upon whether you are a member of the ymca or a serviceman? mr. barnhorst. from what i know, mr. oswald--he should have paid $ . or $ . for a room, cents for membership and $ for the key deposit. no doubt he paid the room rent because that's on the record and the key deposit or else he wouldn't have gotten a room, but the key deposit isn't listed in the ledger at all. it is a separate account because we refund it and in the ledger we list memberships and we separate that from the key deposits. because it is in a separate account. now, i didn't see any membership fee by his name. mr. jenner. but does an ex-serviceman receive this reduced rate? mr. barnhorst. not if he has been out a minute or more, at least i never give it to him. now, i always check the id cards. mr. barker, i believe, does not, but of course any serviceman could rattle off his service number years after he got out and i found that out quite early so i have been checking them and i have had several fellows who were trying to get away with it--they usually had forgotten it or say they would be back in a minute and they don't come back and it was embarrassing to me, and mr. barker has been there a long time. he wouldn't write up a membership unless he was a serviceman. mr. jenner. these registration cards show---- mr. barnhorst. they don't show which one it is. mr. jenner. would they show the address that the guests gave? mr. barnhorst. we always ask for an address, try to get an address from them. occasionally we don't. occasionally they just sort of don't put it on there and you say, "well, i would like to have an address on there." and they will say, "i plan to stay here." it should show an address on there of some kind. mr. jenner. and among the papers i have asked to have photostated will that appear? mr. barnhorst. if he gave an address, it will be there. now, i came across one fellow--i told a couple of the fbi men, because so many of them were over there to talk to me--there's always around the ymca somebody who knows a little about everything, you know these kind of people, but in this case there is a fellow down there who claims that he knew lee in new orleans. now, he is a little character and his iq matches his height. i'm not making personal opinions, you understand, but this fellow was no end of trouble to me. he did come by and he, i believe, stayed on the same floor, if i remember right. mr. jenner. he was a guest? mr. barnhorst. he was a permanent resident and he was one of these fellows who bounced from job to job every few days but he just happened to bounce in the same town all the time. mr. jenner. what is his name? mr. barnhorst. joseph r. hummel. mr. jenner. [spelling] h-u-m-m-e-l? mr. barnhorst. right. mr. jenner. is he still a guest there? mr. barnhorst. no; he moved out or months ago. we have a forwarding address, i believe because his mail isn't here any more--that would indicate a forwarding address. in fact, i believe i put the forwarding address in the box. it's over there and i can probably get it for you. mr. jenner. i wonder if you would do that and also give that to mr. hulen and tell him what you told me about that so he can explain it to me. mr. barnhorst. the night watchman over there told me one time--i mentioned "little" joe, or heard "little" joe talking about it one night and i wouldn't put much stock in it because the night watchman says he has seen fellows come in there from some of these towns and "little" joe recognized them and called them by name, and evidently he has been in new orleans possibly about that time, so if i didn't know that, i would just say the guy was a glory hound, but something like that sometimes a glory hound might be in the right place at the right time. so, the fbi--i don't know whether they did anything about it or not, but i just told them at that time that that wasn't the only person around that i know of that remembers knowing oswald or when he was there, and if we didn't have the official records to show it. apparently he just passed unnoticed, because from the pictures i have seen, he's like a hundred and one guys i have checked in over there, and the only reason i would watch him if i suspected he might be a homosexual or something because in a transient hotel of any kind we watch for them and try to see if they are going to--to see the people they associate with, you know, what is going on and we do watch that. i don't think anyone has said that he associated with anyone, because it has been talked about some. now, mr. barker, the one who checked him in is the one clerk we have over there who the roof could fall in on--just so it didn't fall in over the part that was his desk--it wouldn't matter. mr. jenner. it wouldn't matter to barker? mr. barnhorst. no. mr. jenner. is he still working there? mr. barnhorst. yes; he's about . he just lives and lets live. he checks them in and checks them out. somehow, maybe it's better that way but i have never heard him, of course, say anything one way or the other, about it. mr. jenner. what hours does barker have? mr. barnhorst. he works the same hours i do--four to midnight except he works the three nights of the week that i don't and then works on saturday and sunday from a.m. to p.m. he and i share the weekend pretty well. mr. jenner. all right, barker checked in oswald, according to your records? mr. barnhorst. according to my knowledge. mr. jenner. on those records? mr. barnhorst. right. and eva marshall is the one who checked him out, and i am personally pretty positive it was mr. barker because the telephone operator that was on with him said that that is true. mr. jenner. mr. barker signed the receipt of payment of $ . , for this day on october and ? mr. barnhorst. it was $ . then? mr. jenner. it says $ . . mr. barnhorst. it should have been $ . , you see. mr. jenner. and mr. barker apparently charged him out on the th of october , and he paid $ . for the last day of that -day stay in october . mr. burge apparently checked him in because the receipt is signed by mr. burge, on the th of october. mr. barnhorst. if they still do the same thing as they did then that would pinpoint the time when he came in. mr. burge relieves us in the evening for our lunch hour, which is usually half an hour and that falls invariably between and because the cafeteria closes at : . mr. jenner. so, with mr. burge checking the man in, that would indicate that was at night or in the evening? mr. barnhorst. in the evening. mr. jenner. it would be sometime after in the afternoon? mr. barnhorst. sometime after , because he wouldn't come in until . mr. jenner. and if mr. barker either checked somebody in or checked somebody out, that would appear, wouldn't it? mr. barnhorst. it depends on the day of the week. if it was on the weekend, it would be between and . it would--if it was on a weekevening, i mean a weekday, it would be in the evening. that's presuming, of course, i'm pretty sure he worked the same shift then as he does now. of course i don't know. mr. jenner. well, october , , was a monday? mr. barnhorst. a monday--well, then, that meant that he was very possibly working the shift i am working now, because he's off monday and tuesday now, but that would still be in the evening. i am presuming that he wasn't working full time for us then. mr. jenner. but if he did work, it was at night? mr. barnhorst. yes. i'm pretty sure it would be. i don't think he was ever a day clerk. mr. jenner. all right. i appreciate very much your coming in. you have been helpful and if you will relate to mr. hulen my desire for these additional records, photostatic copies, i would appreciate it. he said he was going to return about o'clock this afternoon. mr. barnhorst. all right. mr. jenner. if he has those, you might speak with him--you see he is in the health department. mr. barnhorst. yes. mr. jenner. i don't know just how familiar he is with these records, but he may be able to explain them. mr. barnhorst. he might and he might not be. he probably might not be familiar with the midnight reports. we make these daily reports where his name would be at the desk. mr. jenner. where the guest's name would appear at the desk? mr. barnhorst. i beg your pardon? mr. jenner. the name of the guest. mr. barnhorst. yes; it would be, on a permanent form. we have a sheaf of papers--we have a stack this high [indicating] and it goes back, that goes back to noah and if we had noah, it would be on that. it had everybody's else's name on there and it would go back oh, i know of course it covers oswald because i saw it on there. mr. jenner. you actually saw it? mr. barnhorst. yes. mr. jenner. as a matter of fact as late as last night? mr. barnhorst. yes; and i remember it was "lee h." now, it doesn't necessarily mean on that report that the card was filled out "lee h." it could have been filled out in the whole name, we abbreviate the names for space. mr. jenner. now, that room , was the room he occupied on the d of october , or was it the room he occupied in ? mr. barnhorst. in . i didn't see the one in . mr. jenner. whatever room number he occupied on his earlier stay in --appears on these records you have described? mr. barnhorst. well; i would say it would be there unless it had been mutilated, and it's double checked by this mr. mcree's secretary. he is the resident manager. it is double checked by her to see that all the stubs are matched by name on the check-in and all of the blue cards are matched by the name on the checkout, just in case there are two of them stuck together. mr. jenner. i hesitate to press you but in view of your great familiarity with the records, if you would not be horribly inconvenienced, it would be helpful to me if you would return with those registration records, because you know how to explain them, at o'clock, with mr. hulen. mr. barnhorst. the photostats or the originals? mr. jenner. the photostats. mr. barnhorst. at o'clock? mr. jenner. please, and you would be in a position to say that the photostats that you produce are actually photostats of the records and cards that you personally saw in the ymca. mr. barnhorst. yes. mr. jenner. and if you will return, then i will not close your deposition now, but i will wait until o'clock. thank you very much. i appreciate your coming in. mr. barnhorst. well, i realize this is just details that you have to have. mr. jenner. yes; that's right. mr. barnhorst. i'll be back at o'clock. mr. jenner. all right, thank you. (at this point the witness barnhorst was excused from the deposing room and returned to same at p.m. on this same day, april , , and his deposition was continued as follows:) mr. jenner. now, the balance of mr. barnhorst's deposition. you thought you might be able to obtain some records for me, mr. barnhorst. mr. barnhorst. yes, sir; i was not able to obtain the blue card record. the fbi has that. that's the notice from mr. mcree in his handwriting. mr. jenner. "the fbi"--i am reading the note, "the fbi has the register cards for october , . has been destroyed and we didn't keep them that long." mr. barnhorst. this is a sample register card just for your own information. mr. jenner. mr. barnhorst has given me a sample of the blue "transient register card," which he described this morning. the card is entitled, "transient register card." it has a stub entitled "transient," and is light blue in color. we will mark it hulen exhibit no. . mr. barnhorst. and that toro, calif.--i can identify that as a marine base, i believe, you've probably heard the name of it. mr. jenner. yes. mr. barnhorst. that would have appeared as an address on the blue card in october , because that's the only place where mr. barker could have gotten the information. mr. jenner. the receipt as to that occasion which i have described in the record, dated october , , lee h. oswald, opposite the word "address," does have "toro, calif." so, in the normal course, i take it that that address would have been furnished to the registration clerk, and in this case, mr. barker? mr. barnhorst. yes; it would be on the blue card. mr. jenner. yes; the blue card, the sample of which you have furnished me? mr. barnhorst. yes; also, mr. mcree, the resident manager, says that mr. oswald produced an identification card, which is not hard to believe because he could have simply claimed to have lost it, his id, when he was in the service, and had them make him another one and turn in the one he had made. i've seen fellows do that quite often. it is usually used for getting into px's and uso's. this is from our ledger sheets, these i have here that are dated in the red left-hand column--everywhere there is a red checkmark on there, mr. oswald's name appears with a receipt number, the amount paid, his last name, also that he never paid any membership fees, but only the room fees. mr. jenner. all right, you have handed me three cards from the original records of the downtown ymca--they are three sheets. mr. barnhorst. written on both sides. mr. jenner. yes; written on both sides. i will mark them commencing with the earliest date on the exhibits, as hulen exhibits nos. , , and . would you identify the sheets? what are they, what kind of record? mr. barnhorst. they are original ledger sheets for a transient guest and they are for the purpose of recording temporarily that the registrar has paid certain fees, because oftentimes they lose their receipts. they come down and we copy into this register--which is placed in a file, the amount that they paid. it is to guarantee that there is no confusion on the amount that is paid. mr. jenner. and do these three register cards that i have in my hand cover all the month of october ? mr. barnhorst. no, sir; they don't. mr. jenner. i'm sorry, do they cover the month of october ? mr. barnhorst. i don't know whether they do--i doubt it--i think they would only cover the days before and after the time which you are interested in. they cover from october--october th through october th. mr. jenner. may i call your attention to the last of the cards, which is marked hulen exhibit no. , the first entry on which is dated october , , and that is for , i'm sure? mr. barnhorst. yes; the cards, marked hulen exhibits nos. and , respectively, run from october th through october th. mr. jenner. and they consist of two sheets? mr. barnhorst. yes. mr. jenner. in selecting these two sheets covering the th through the th, did you examine the ledger sheets for the balance of the month? mr. barnhorst. no, sir; mr. mcree did. mr. jenner. mr. mcree did so? mr. barnhorst. and he told me those are the only cards that have mr. oswald's name on them. mr. jenner. so, they were selected from the ledger cards for october , those which had some entry thereon with respect to oswald? mr. barnhorst. yes. it was done by the receipt numbers, also. mr. jenner. it was doublechecked, so that there appears a--on the third line of the , card commencing with october th, an entry under date of october th, reciting item no. and the name, "oswald," and $ . and under the column, "balance," there is a strike line, and--indicating nothing due. mr. barnhorst. pardon me, that balance is not used for the purpose of something due. we substitute for that a membership fee. that strike line means he did not have a membership fee. mr. jenner. there is a similar entry for the th, the th, and the th. these records then are for the recording of the fact that oswald was a guest on those days, and that he paid the amounts of money recorded on the ledger sheets, which in turn correspond with the receipts which mr. hulen brought in? mr. barnhorst. yes, sir. mr. jenner. the third of these ledger sheets--the first entry is opposite a date in --october , . i take it this ledger sheet was selected from among all of the ledger sheets for the month of october , because it records the name oswald on october , , item no. , $ . --is that correct? mr. barnhorst. yes. i have seen all of the ledger sheets for october . mr. jenner. and this is the only one that has any entry on it with respect to oswald? mr. barnhorst. that's the only one. mr. jenner. and that one entry that does have, corresponds with the receipt on that date, produced by mr. hulen? mr. barnhorst. yes. mr. jenner. may we have these photostated and then returned to you or did you make photostats? mr. barnhorst. we do not keep this for any great length of time. mr. mcree said we might turn this over to you. mr. jenner. thank you very much. mr. barnhorst. as with all of the records. mr. jenner. all right, we will retain them. do you have other papers? mr. barnhorst. yes; these are the daily report sheets you requested. this is october . these are for the specific dates at the top. mr. jenner. mr. barnhorst has now produced and handed me---- mr. barnhorst. you see, the carbon was in the thing backwards when it was typed, so, they didn't do it over on the third copy, they just stapled a sheet behind it and attached it to the copies you read it through from the top because an error was made in putting it in the typewriter. mr. jenner. the front of each of these two sheets, for the purpose of identification in the record consist of two sheets stapled together back to back and in the typing the sheet was reversed and must be read from back to front. the first, or facing sheet, is marked hulen exhibit no. , and it is entitled "resident's hall report, thursday, october , ." the left-hand column is headed "permanent-in." the right-hand column is headed, "transients-out continued." this records, as i look at it here, the registrations in and out on october , , is that correct? mr. barnhorst. yes; approximately. it may include one or two who came in just the night before or who checked out, or men who would have been there and checked out the following day--would be on the next day's report. mr. jenner. is there an entry on this sheet with respect to lee oswald? mr. barnhorst. yes, room , on the "transients-out," and i believe on the "transients-in," i'm not sure. on this one it is the "transients-in," room . he isn't on this sheet on "transients-out." i don't recall it. mr. jenner. room --and he is shown checked in by mr. barker? mr. barnhorst. yes. mr. jenner. and from your knowledge of the hours mr. barker worked, that check-in was either late in the day or early in the evening of october ? mr. barnhorst. yes. mr. jenner. the second set of papers you have produced consists of three sheets, each entitled, "resident's hall report." they are dated at the top right-hand column as october , , october , , and october , . they are marked respectively, hulen exhibits nos. , , and . mr. barnhorst. hulen exhibit no. is for the day following october , . mr. jenner. that would be the same report for the following day, and is there an entry on this that relates to mr. oswald? mr. barnhorst. yes, sir; "transients-out, room ." mr. jenner. under "transients-out," room , appears the name "lee h. oswald." then, at the end of the line there there is a word that is apparently a name (spelling) e-v-a---- mr. barnhorst. yes, sir. mr. jenner. who is that? mr. barnhorst. mrs. eva marshall. mr. jenner. what does she do? mr. barnhorst. she is the day clerk. she was probably substituting at the time for the clerk who quit. mr. jenner. all right, and this indicates then that he checked out on the d of october and that the lady you have identified handled that checkout? mr. barnhorst. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and the fact that she did it would indicate to you what, as to the time of day he checked out? mr. barnhorst. it would probably be morning, but it also could be early afternoon. mr. jenner. exhibits and cover the period october - , ? mr. barnhorst. yes. mr. jenner. i offer the exhibits. i think that's all we have with respect to you. you overheard what i said to mr. hulen with regard to reading the deposition. that applies to you as well. if you will check with mr. sanders, this ought to be ready next week. it is rather late in the week to have it ready. you may sign the deposition if you wish or you may waive that. if there are any errors in it, we would like to know. thank you very much. mr. barnhorst. ok. testimony of mrs. arthur carl (gladys j.) johnson the testimony of mrs. arthur carl (gladys j.) johnson was taken at : p.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. joseph a. ball, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. ball. come in, mr. and mrs. johnson, and sit down. my name is joe ball and mrs. johnson, i think we will start with you. will you stand up, mrs. johnson, please, and hold up your right hand? [complying.] mr. ball. do you solemnly swear the testimony given before this commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mrs. johnson. i certainly do; yes, sir. mr. ball. mrs. johnson, my name is joe ball and i am a staff counsel for the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy. you have received a letter from us, did you not? mrs. johnson. yes, i did. mr. ball. asking you to appear today and you are appearing voluntarily? mrs. johnson. yes. mr. ball. you will be asked questions concerning certain facts of which you have knowledge that have to do with our investigation of the assassination of the president, and particularly your knowledge of lee harvey oswald and his place of residence and various things that you might know concerning lee harvey oswald. mr. ball. what is your address? mrs. johnson. north beckley. mr. ball. how long have you lived there? mrs. johnson. years. mr. ball. and you live there with your husband? mrs. johnson. yes, sir; i do. mr. ball. what is his name? mrs. johnson. arthur carl johnson. mr. ball. first of all, before i ask you any more questions, can you tell me something about your background, where you were born, where you went to school? mrs. johnson. yes, sir. mr. ball. how long you've been married and everything. mrs. johnson. i was born in in cherokee county at alto and i was married to my first husband in and he is deceased. i had two children by him and he is deceased and i have been married to this mr. johnson will be years in august. mr. ball. you are a housewife by occupation? mrs. johnson. no, i have a restaurant. i have a little restaurant of my own for years, young street, johnson's cafe. mr. ball. you still operate it? mrs. johnson. yes, sir; i still do. mr. ball. you said you had lived at this place, ---- mrs. johnson. about years. mr. ball. north beckley? mrs. johnson. yes, sir. mrs. ball. you and your husband own that property? mrs. johnson. i do; i owned it before i married. i don't own it. i am paying for it but i had bought the property before i married johnson. mr. ball. what size house is that, how many rooms? mrs. johnson. well, it has about -odd-- rooms. mr. ball. rooms? mrs. johnson. yes. mr. ball. in october, last october, november, , who lived there? mrs. johnson. october? mr. ball. yes, october and november last year; you and your husband lived there? mrs. johnson. yes; my husband and i; that's our home. mr. ball. anyone else live there with you? mrs. johnson. i had a housekeeper. mr. ball. what is her name? mrs. johnson. earlene roberts. mr. ball. anyone else live there? mrs. johnson. that's all except tenants. mr. ball. then you rented out rooms? mrs. johnson. yes; i rent out bedrooms, don't give board, just bedroom and living room privileges. mr. ball. how many tenants did you have in october last year? mrs. johnson. you know, i'm sorry i didn't bring my register. i couldn't tell you exactly; i imagine i had about or . mr. ball. was it full? mrs. johnson. no; i don't--i most always have vacancies. mr. ball. you do? mrs. johnson. i have had more even since this happened. mr. ball. oh, you have? mrs. johnson. yes; i have; people are funny about things like that, you know. mr. ball. well, now, you knew lee oswald, didn't you? mrs. johnson. well, i just knew him when i seen him. i knew him as a renter, that's all. mr. ball. where was he when you first met him, at what place? mrs. johnson. at my home--i was between serving hours and i come home for relaxation and to kind of help out. i cooperate in keeping the house and seeing after it, too, and i had returned home that afternoon and he seen the room for rent sign--the first time that he came by, i happened to have just rented the last room that one time. occasionally, i will have them full and then they just go vacant; people just come in and out, stay a week and then are gone, anyway, at that time, i didn't have a room. mr. ball. the first time he came to see you? mrs. johnson. yes: that's something about weeks before he came back. mr. ball. this was north beckley? mrs. johnson. yes. mr. ball. he talked to you? mrs. johnson. yes; the first time and the last time; the first time, he told me he wanted a room and i told him i was very sorry, i just rented the last room and he said he was very sorry, he wanted to get near his work and he didn't have a car and it being on the bus line, he was sorry he missed it. i said, "you noticed the sign." i hadn't had time to take the sign up and i told him, "i will take the sign up and if you notice the sign up again, you might stop by and i will have a room" and sure enough, he came by this second time and so this tiny, little room--it was at one time my library; that's what it was built for, and he came by and i said i only have this small room at the present time. i run an ad, it seems like, at that time, and i said i only have the small room and he looked at it and said, "i will take this room with the understanding i can have a larger room at the time you have one go vacant" and i said to him that's agreeable, so, at the time, i had other vacancies which in just or days i had two or three more accommodations go vacant, so i told him i had other accommodations that are larger and he said, "i find this room to be light and comfortable." it was four windows on the outside wall; it was all light. he said, "i find it to be light and comfortable and worth the money, if you don't mind, i will remain in this room," so he didn't even look at the other rooms. he just remained in that room, what i call my library. when i utilized it into a bedroom, my father-in-law lived with a family of people on a farm and they went to arkansas to live and he was getting old and he didn't want to be that far away from his son, so he wanted to come and make his home with us and i fixed this little library room--it was off and private from the other roomers--for "pappy" to sleep in and the living room for him to sit in and he was--that's about years before he was deceased. mr. ball. do you remember the date oswald rented the room? mrs. johnson. october . mr. ball. what time of day did he come by? mrs. johnson. it was between and o'clock, i do know that because i was home that day when he came back by and i said, when he came by, i said, "you did come back by." mr. ball. was your sign out at that time? mrs. johnson. yes; it was; he seen the sign. mr. ball. how much did you charge him? mrs. johnson. $ a week, refrigerator and living room privileges. mr. ball. the refrigerator was located where? mrs. johnson. in my kitchen--he wanted to know if he could put milk and lunch meat in my refrigerator and i told him he could. mr. ball. did he tell you what his name was? mrs. johnson. o. h. l-e-e [spelling]. mr. ball. did he sign anything with that name? mrs. johnson. yes, sir; i have it in my purse. mr. ball. may i see it? mrs. johnson. i will be glad to--i don't want you to keep it. i want you to--i brought it for your information. i knew you was going to ask that. mr. ball. now, is this in his handwriting? mrs. johnson. this "o. h. lee" is in his handwriting and this other is in the housekeeper's handwriting--mrs. roberts. mr. ball. and these are the rates you gave him? mrs. johnson. yes. mr. ball. i would like this marked as an exhibit to this deposition. mark this exhibit a. [exhibit so marked.] mr. ball. could we make a copy of this and return this to you, mrs. johnson? mrs. johnson. yes; i have been told that i could sell this and i haven't gotten any money. i think about $ is what i have received, all the trouble and all i've had and i've had to take the rugs up once or twice. people like to have driven us crazy before we asked for any information what to do. i hated to be rude to people. i didn't know what to do but they got so---- mr. ball. we will make a picture of this and give it back to you. mrs. johnson. may i have something to erase this november , --i got that wrong, anyway. i was looking at the calendar and this, i was thinking it was november that he left--he left my place on a wednesday before this assassination on friday. mr. ball. that was the last time you saw him? mrs. johnson. yeah; the last time i saw him was on a wednesday but my housekeeper seen him on a friday morning right after this assassination, he came by the house hurriedly. mr. ball. were you at home at the time? mrs. johnson. no; i wasn't. i was at my restaurant, so i got this copied wrong. it was november ; the assassination was on the d and he left my house on the th and then didn't return until right after this assassination. mr. ball. by this, you mean the last time you saw him was wednesday, the th? mrs. johnson. yes, sir. mr. ball. he did not come home on thursday night? mrs. johnson. he did not; no, sir. mr. ball. the st? mrs. johnson. yes, sir. mr. ball. friday, the d, you did not see him, either? mrs. johnson. no; i didn't. the housekeeper did. mr. ball. we will make a copy of this and give the original back to you and we will mark this "a." did he sign that "o. h. lee" in your presence? mrs. johnson. yes, sir. mr. ball. on that day? mrs. johnson. yes, sir; the day he rented the room, they sign the register--they sign the register before i accept any money. mr. ball. i'm talking about this "o. h. lee" signature on this document; he signed that on that date? mrs. johnson. yes, sir. mr. ball. did he give you the money? mrs. johnson. yes. mr. ball. $ ? mrs. johnson. yes. mr. ball. did you ever know his true name was lee harvey oswald? mrs. johnson. no; not until we saw his picture flash on the television as the officers were out. those particulars was found in his pocket after he killed tippit, after his arrest. so i came from the restaurant, i guess or : , and these officers were there : or , something like that, anyway, it was after this assassination, and as i drove in, well, the officers were there and they told me that they was looking for this character and i told them i didn't think i had anyone by that name there but we went through the register carefully two or three times and there was no oswald there and i had two new tenants, rather new tenants, so we had carried them around the house to show them and we was going to start in the new tenants' rooms and my husband was sitting in the living room and seen this picture flash on the television and he said, "please go around that house and tell him it was this guy that lived in this room here"; and it was o. h. lee. mr. ball. that is the first time you learned his name was oswald? mrs. johnson. yes. mr. ball. you knew him as o. h. lee? mrs. johnson. yes; i knew him as o. h. lee. mr. ball. the first time you knew the man to be lee harvey oswald that you had known as o. h. lee? mrs. johnson. that's right. mr. ball. were you there when oswald brought his clothes into the room? mrs. johnson. no; what do you mean? mr. ball. now, you rented the room to him on the th? mrs. johnson. yes. mr. ball. did he move in on that same day? mrs. johnson. yes, sir; and he had his clothes with him. mr. ball. he had his clothes with him? mrs. johnson. yes, sir; he just had a little old bag of clothes, these little bags you get when you are in the service. mr. ball. a duffelbag? mrs. johnson. yes. mr. ball. that's all he had? mrs. johnson. that's all he had. mr. ball. he was there only--you say he rented it on the th of october? mrs. johnson. he rented the th of october. mr. ball. then he paid his rent every week until when? mrs. johnson. every week, every week, i tell you, when he rented the room, he told me that he was--i told him the rules of the house before i accepted any renter i rent to, i tell them the rules of the house. mr. ball. what did you tell him? mrs. johnson. that we definitely do not entertain in bedrooms, strictly the living room, and, too, they cannot come in intoxicated. if they drink, they must sober before they come in and i do not allow drinking at the home. that's the rules of the house and he accepted it. mr. ball. he was there a little better than a month? mrs. johnson. yes, sir. mr. ball. five or six weeks? mrs. johnson. yes; he was. mr. ball. did he eat any of his meals there at the home? mrs. johnson. he had sandwiches and had milk. he drank about a half gallon of sweet milk a day. he kept a half gallon of sweet milk in my refrigerator a day and he kept lunch meat. mr. ball. anything else? mrs. johnson. jelly and preserves, something like that. mr. ball. did he eat in the evening after work? mrs. johnson. yes; he did, most every afternoon. mr. ball. he ate where, in his room? mrs. johnson. sometimes take it in his room, but he was just spotless with it. mr. ball. did he eat in the kitchen with it sometimes? mrs. johnson. occasionally, if there was no one in the kitchen, he would sit in the kitchen, but if there was anyone in there, he would take it in his room and every bit of that was put in the trash can. he never kept anything cluttered, never kept anything outside, no papers, books, or nothing. mr. ball. did you see him eat anything but lunch meat? mrs. johnson. i never did, just lunch meat, all he ever put in there and preserves, i think he had some preserves and milk; but he put about a half gallon of sweet milk in that box each day. mr. ball. did you ever see him eating his evening meal? mrs. johnson. well, i don't think i had seen him but i have seen him come in and get the lunch meat and carry it into his room. mr. ball. did he go out nights, any? mrs. johnson. i just really never did see that man leave that room. mr. ball. after he came back from work? mrs. johnson. yes; he stayed very closely but he did tell me he would be leaving to go home over weekends--no; he didn't say "home," he said, "i will leave to go to irving over weekends and won't return until monday." mr. ball. was he gone almost every weekend? mrs. johnson. every weekend but one and that was the weekend previous to the assassination. mr. ball. what did he do that weekend? mrs. johnson. well, i actually didn't see him leave the house but i know he did because i heard some of the renters say they seen him leave and i also heard--remember something that he went to the rifle range--i read he was at the rifle range. mr. ball. you say you did not see him leave. were you there over the weekend? mrs. johnson. i surely was. mr. ball. but you did not see him leave? mrs. johnson. that's right. mr. ball. you say you heard some people say that; who said that? mrs. johnson. i have read. mr. ball. don't tell me what you read. mrs. johnson. i actually read it in the newspaper; i just don't remember. mr. ball. is there anybody that you know of at your house that you say saw oswald leave the house the weekend before the assassination? mrs. johnson. i'm trying to think. i just don't believe that i remember anyone who said definitely that they seen him leave. mr. ball. did anybody tell you that lived in your house there? mrs. johnson. they could come in and out that door and we never would notice it because the house is large and we stayed a lot in the back of the house. mr. ball. you mentioned rifle range. where did you get information that oswald went to a rifle range? mrs. johnson. i read it in the paper. mr. ball. did anybody in your house tell you he went to a rifle range? mrs. johnson. no. mr. ball. did you ever see him go to a rifle range? mrs. johnson. no, sir. mr. ball. did he ever tell you he went to a rifle range? mrs. johnson. no, sir; that man never talked; that was the only peculiarity about him. he would never speak. if we would speak to him and some of the men renters he would speak to the housekeeper and i everytime we would speak and we would speak to him just most every time we would meet him and, of course, he would speak after we would speak, but he would come in and watch television maybe , minutes at a time and never speak to a man. mr. ball. he would watch television sometimes? mrs. johnson. yes, sir; watch television with the other men renters and he wouldn't speak to them. maybe they would speak to him but he wouldn't speak. mr. ball. did you ever see him with a rifle? mrs. johnson. never did; and he never brought that rifle in my house; i just know he never had that rifle in there. he could have had this pistol, i don't know, because they found the scabbard. mr. ball. the pistol holster is what they found? mrs. johnson. pistol holster is what i'm trying to say. mr. ball. they found that after the assassination? mrs. johnson. yes sir; i seen the holster. mr. ball. had you ever seen it before? mrs. johnson. no, sir; he kept that packed away. we never go through people's personal things. i instruct my housekeeper never go through people's personal things. we are not in a position to do that and it's rude and we do not. mr. ball. how is this room furnished that oswald rented? mrs. johnson. a very small room; it had an old fashioned clothes closet that had a place to hang your clothes and drawer space for your underwear, your socks and everything, and then it also had a cabinet space anyone could have stored food or, well i mean bundles of things, you know, and then i had a dresser and a bed and a heater and a little refrigerated unit. mr. ball. a refrigerating unit? mrs. johnson. yes, sir; a window unit. mr. ball. you mean it cooled the room? mrs. johnson. yes, sir; and it had curtains and venetian blinds. mr. ball. what kind of curtains did it have? mrs. johnson. well, it just had side drapes and panels. mr. ball. were the curtains on curtain rods? mrs. johnson. yes, sir. mr. ball. they were in the room when he rented it? mrs. johnson. yes, sir. mr. ball. did oswald ever talk to you about redecorating his room? mrs. johnson. no, sir; never mentioned it. mr. ball. did he ever talk to you about putting up new curtains in his room? mrs. johnson. no, sir. mr. ball. did he ever tell you he was going to get some curtain rods? mrs. johnson. no; he didn't. mr. ball. the room had curtain rods on the window when he came in there? mrs. johnson. yes, sir; sure did. mr. ball. also curtains? mrs. johnson. yes, sir. mr. ball. was there one weekend when he was gone in which he didn't return on monday but he came back the next day, on tuesday? mrs. johnson. yes, sir. mr. ball. was there? mrs. johnson. yes; there was one and it must have been on labor--no---- mr. ball. armistice day? mrs. johnson. armistice day; it was on monday, was it not? mr. ball. yes. mrs. johnson. that was monday he wasn't home. he didn't come home until tuesday; that's the first time and only time he failed to pay his rent when it was due. it was due on monday. mr. ball. when did he pay it? mrs. johnson. i would say the next minutes after he walked into the house from work. mr. ball. what time did he come home from work on tuesday? mrs. johnson. something like o'clock, : or -- , i think. mr. ball. did he tell you where he had been? mrs. johnson. no, no; he didn't tell us anything; no; we didn't ask. mr. ball. now, in the next weekend, that would be the weekend before the assassination, he stayed there? mrs. johnson. he remained there. mr. ball. did you or did you not see him go out any that weekend? mrs. johnson. i did not see him go out; i did not; no, sir. (at this point mr. johnson left the room.) mr. ball. let me ask you this: did he, that weekend, that was the weekend before the assassination, on a saturday, make a trip to a place where they wash clothes? mrs. johnson. well, i think that he did go across to that washateria. i think he did. mr. ball. did you see him go any place, go out of the house except for that on that weekend? mrs. johnson. that's the only time and i had just forgotten that but i do remember he carried some clothes out of that house that morning and the washateria is right across the street, less than a block. mr. ball. but he left his room? mrs. johnson. and he wasn't gone long and i didn't see him return with any clothes but i do know he was gone just about long enough to do a wash. mr. ball. did he watch television every evening? mrs. johnson. not every evening but just every time he took a notion but maybe percent of the time he would sit in his room. mr. ball. did he have any visitors? mrs. johnson. no, sir; he never had a visitor. mr. ball. do you ever remember him spending an evening away from home except for these times you told us about? mrs. johnson. not an evening that i remember him being away but other than weekends he would. he would leave on friday mornings and return monday evenings. mr. ball. did he tell you when he rented your room where he was working? mrs. johnson. no; he didn't, but he did tell me he would be returning to irving each weekend. mr. ball. did he ever tell you where he was working? mrs. johnson. no, sir. mr. ball. did he ever tell you what his job was? mrs. johnson. no; he told me he was anxious to rent the room being on the busline and near his work and he didn't have a car and he would be returning to irving. mr. ball. did you ever see him in the company of anyone? mrs. johnson. never did see him in the company of nobody. mr. ball. did he drink? mrs. johnson. no, sir; no more than sweet milk. mr. ball. he never drink intoxicating liquor? mrs. johnson. no, sir; i don't believe he drank. mr. ball. you never saw him drink anything? mrs. johnson. no, sir. mr. ball. you never saw him intoxicated? mrs. johnson. no, sir. mr. ball. did he smoke? mrs. johnson. i don't believe he did. mr. ball. miss earlene roberts was your housekeeper at this time? mrs. johnson. yes, she was. mr. ball. how long have you known her? mrs. johnson. i have known mrs. roberts, oh, i guess it was years, something like that, years. mr. ball. where did you first meet her? mrs. johnson. i hired her as a housekeeper. mr. ball. at north beckley? mrs. johnson. yes, sir. mr. ball. has she been working for you for that period of time? mrs. johnson. no, sir; i let mrs. roberts go a time or two, then i would hire her back. mr. ball. was there some reason why you let her go? mrs. johnson. well, she would just get to being disagreeable with renters and i don't know, she has a lot of handicaps. she has an overweight problem and she has some habits that some people have to understand to tolerate. mr. ball. what are they? mrs. johnson. talking, just sitting down and making up tales, you know, have you ever seen people like that? just have a creative mind, there's nothing to it, and just make up and keep talking until she just makes a lie out of it. listen, i'm telling you the truth and this isn't to go any further, understand that? you have to know these things because you are going to question this lady. i will tell you, she's just as intelligent--i think she is a person that doesn't mean to do that but she just does it automatically. it seems as though that she, oh, i don't know, wants to be attractive or something at times. i just don't know; i don't understand it myself. i only wish i did. mr. ball. she was working for you in october and november while oswald was a renter with you? mrs. johnson. yes, she was. this saturday night will be weeks she left. mr. ball. she quit weeks ago? mrs. johnson. yes, sir; i didn't know she was going. mr. ball. where did she go? mrs. johnson. i do not know. i called her sister to try to find out. i don't think she knows. mr. ball. who is her sister? mrs. johnson. mrs. bertha cheek. mr. ball. she lives here in dallas? mrs. johnson. yes; on swiss. i think. mr. ball. have you talked to her within the last few days? mrs. johnson. a number of times i talked to her, trying to find earlene. i thought it was important we did come to this commission and i wanted to ask earlene just why she did leave because i didn't know there was a thing in the world wrong. well, i carried her to pleasant grove to a doctor and spent a half day that i should have been even with my brother that had had a heart attack, been assisting my sister-in-law and her chores that day. mr. ball. when was this? mrs. johnson. three weeks ago saturday. mr. ball. that's the day you took her to the doctor? mrs. johnson. yes; i took her every weeks just as regular. mr. ball. she quit that day? mrs. johnson. that night, and everything was just as agreeable; i went and shopped for vegetables and her special meats for her diet. she is a diabetic, too, while she was in the doctor's office, and i had everything for another week for her diet. mr. ball. did she come to you and tell you she was going to quit? mrs. johnson. no; she never mentioned such a thing. i thought everything was just agreeable. mr. ball. what did she do, move out? mrs. johnson. after midnight, after everyone was in bed. mr. ball. she didn't tell you she was going? mrs. johnson. she didn't tell me she was going. mr. ball. you haven't see her since? mrs. johnson. i haven't seen her since. mr. ball. did a letter come to your house to earlene roberts from the commission? mrs. johnson. yes. mr. ball. what did you do with it? mrs. johnson. i held it until the last minute and returned it to you. mr. ball. your letter and your husband's letter came to the house? mrs. johnson. yes. mr. ball. you called mrs. cheek? mrs. johnson. yes, i did. mr. ball. to find out where earlene was? mrs. johnson. yes. mr. ball. what did she tell you? mrs. johnson. she told me she had called her and told her she had left my house and she said, "i just proceeded to tell her what i thought about it because you are so good and so nice to her. she should never have quit you like that." she said, "you know how she is, she hasn't called back. she might swell up and pout and it will be months before she calls me again." mr. ball. do you know any reason why she should have left you? mrs. johnson. mrs. cheek, the sister, says when she was talking to her she brought up a little old lady that does room with me and she is a retired woman who is drawing her social security and she was a housekeeper previous to this last time mrs. roberts was there--katy gage, a precious woman, gets along with everybody. she's got children but doesn't want to live with them. she prefers living with my husband and i, renting a room and lives with us. she tells--and mrs. cheek says first thing she brought up was katy. she says she's jealous of katy and i don't know why she is. there is no reason to be. mr. ball. did earlene roberts ever talk to oswald in your presence; did you ever see them talk to each other? mrs. johnson. listen here, no; i don't believe that lee talked to anybody. i just really don't. mr. ball. did earlene ever talk to you about oswald? mrs. johnson. no. mr. ball. say she thought he was a peculiar one? mrs. johnson. no. mr. ball. she never mentioned him? mrs. johnson. no; she just didn't like him because he wouldn't speak but that's all. mr. ball. she told you she did not like him? mrs. johnson. yeah, she would say "i would like to know if he thinks he is too good to speak to me when he comes through the kitchen." i said, "if you speak to him, he will speak," i said, "i will speak to him" and he says, "good morning" but he didn't speak if i didn't speak. mr. ball. on the day of the d of november, were you home around o'clock? mrs. johnson. it must have been : or , something like that. mr. ball. when you came home? mrs. johnson. yes; after serving lunch. mr. ball. did earlene roberts say anything to you whether or not this man had returned? mrs. johnson. no; after these officers came in, well, then she began to tell them that he did come rushing in and she had gotten a phone call or had made one, anyway, she was on the phone--no, there was someone called her, that's what she said, said someone called her and she says, "did you know that the president had been assassinated" and she says, "why, no" and she says, "well, it's on the television now" and she says, "i will run and turn it on" and she run in and turned this television on to get this information and this oswald walked in hurriedly and she said, she said to him, "you seem to be in a hurry." she was the only one in that place. she said he didn't say a word but went on in his room and she said he changed his little zip-up coat, way i understand it, and just went right back out. he evidently got the gun; now, we don't know. mr. ball. did she tell the officers that? mrs. johnson. yeah, she told the officers that. mr. ball. when they came out there, did they have a search warrant? mrs. johnson. yes, surely. mr. ball. did you permit them to search his room? mrs. johnson. yes; they taken everything immediately out of his room. mr. ball. did you look in the room while they were searching it? mrs. johnson. i certainly did. it had french doors to it; folding open, you couldn't help but see everything, the books and all they took out of these chests of drawers. they was throwin' them down on the bed. mr. ball. did you see a pistol holster? mrs. johnson. yes, i did. mr. ball. where was it? mrs. johnson. i don't know; they took it out of one of the drawers of this chest. mr. ball. it was in a drawer? mrs. johnson. yes. mr. ball. i think that's all. now, you can look this over and sign it, if you wish, or you can waive your signature and we will have it written up and send it on to washington. mrs. johnson. how is this? mr. ball. if you wish, we will have this written up and you can read it over and sign it or you can waive signature, if you wish, and you won't need to read it over and sign it. what do you prefer? mrs. johnson. i would think that you people--of course, the way i worded it, it probably sounds terrible. mr. ball. i thought it sounded very good. mrs. johnson. i put it just as straight as i could because we did know such a little about this man but you know i have rented rooms a long time and i find people, around boys, especially, about this age, some of them are shy. they don't prefer a lot of yakking and you will get to where, actually, you appreciate a person that goes in his room and takes care of his own business rather than sit around and quiz and ask personal questions and wants to change from one television program to another. you get tired of that. mr. ball. are you satisfied to waive your signature, mrs. johnson? mrs. johnson. why, yes. mr. ball. and leave it just as you said it? mrs. johnson. i have said the truth, nothing but the truth. mr. ball. then, you won't have to sign it. we will send it on to the commission this way. mrs. johnson. i have told you the truth. testimony of a. c. johnson the testimony of a. c. johnson was taken at : p.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. david s. belin, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. belin. will you stand up and raise your right hand, mr. johnson? do you solemnly swear in your testimony to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. johnson. i do. mr. belin. please be seated, sir. your name is a. c. johnson? mr. johnson. a. c. mr. belin. where do you live, mr. johnson? mr. johnson. north beckley. mr. belin. that's here in dallas? mr. johnson. yes, sir. mr. belin. how long have you lived there? mr. johnson. i've lived there years, i believe. mr. belin. now what's your occupation? mr. johnson. carpenter. mr. belin. are you originally from texas, or did you move here? mr. johnson. no, i'm from kentucky--was born in kentucky. my folks came here when i was years old. mr. belin. they came here to texas? mr. johnson. when i was years old. and i've been in and around dallas ever since. mr. belin. did you go to school here? mr. johnson. yes--not in dallas, but country schools--county schools, you know. mr. belin. how far did you go through school? mr. johnson. sir? mr. belin. how far did you go through school? mr. johnson. uh--just grade school. mr. belin. just grade school. and then did you go to work? mr. johnson. yes. mr. belin. did you ever have any army service at all? mr. johnson. no. mr. belin. just by general background, has your general occupation been a carpenter for most of these past or years? mr. johnson. no; i've been a carpenter for about--uh--well, about years, i guess. mr. belin. before that, what did you do? mr. johnson. i was raised on a farm. mr. belin. and you worked on a farm then? mr. johnson. yes. mr. belin. and you and your wife have this house at north beckley and have people that room there by the week? mr. johnson. yes. mr. belin. about how many people do you have that room there? mr. johnson. well, when it's full, we have . mr. belin. has it been full within the past months at all, or not? mr. johnson. no, no, it hasn't. mr. belin. by the way, how long have you been married, mr. johnson? mr. johnson. seventeen years. mr. belin. you've been married years? mr. johnson. yes, sir. mr. belin. now, sometime last fall, a person came to your house to rent a room who you knew by the name of o. h. lee. is that correct? mr. johnson. that's right. mr. belin. when he first came, were you all full at that time or not--or don't you know? mr. johnson. i believe that--uh--the little room he took was the only room available at that time. mr. belin. had he come any earlier to try and find a room earlier--or not? mr. johnson. uh--mrs. roberts said he had been by once before. mr. belin. and was that little room available then, or not--or don't you remember? mr. johnson. i don't remember exactly. i believe, though, that--uh--i believe he looked at it and decided he'd wait awhile. but the next time he came back, why he decided he'd take it. my wife told him that--uh--if he wanted to take that room, why he could, you know, when we had a larger room and more convenient for him, why he could have it. and so he just--after he got this little room, why he just decided he'd stay in it. mr. belin. could you describe that little room for us? mr. johnson. well, it's just a--a small room. i believe it's about by , or something like that. it was a library room. mr. belin. does it have any windows in it? mr. johnson. it has--uh--three--four windows, i believe. mr. belin. on one side, two sides, three sides? mr. johnson. one side. mr. belin. they're all on one side? mr. johnson. all on one side. mr. belin. do you have any curtains on those windows? mr. johnson. yes. mr. belin. did you have curtains at that time on the windows? mr. johnson. yes. mr. belin. how were the curtains put up--by curtain rods, or by what? mr. johnson. yes. curtain rods. yes. they were just on regular curtain rods. mr. belin. there were already curtain rods in the room, then, when this o. h. lee came there--is that correct? mr. johnson. yes, uh-huh. mr. belin. could you describe the curtains at all, that were in there, if you remember them, or not? mr. johnson. no; i couldn't. mr. belin. would those curtains still be on there today? or might you have different ones now? mr. johnson. no; we'd have different curtains now. mr. belin. do you know who he got his room from--from you or from your wife or from your housekeeper? mr. johnson. i don't know. mr. belin. who was your housekeeper, by the way? mr. johnson. earlene roberts. mr. belin. is she still there? mr. johnson. no; she's moved. mr. belin. how long had she been a housekeeper for you? mr. johnson. well, that's something around a year--this past--the last time, i mean. mr. belin. she was a housekeeper for you prior to that time? mr. johnson. yes; about a year or a little better. mr. belin. do you know how old mrs. roberts is--approximately? mr. johnson. i believe she's in her fifties. mr. belin. would you have any objections in stating for the record approximately how old you are? mr. johnson. i'm . mr. belin. fifty-nine. did mrs. roberts say why she was leaving? mr. johnson. no; she didn't. mr. belin. did she give you any notice that she was leaving? mr. johnson. no; didn't give us any notice. mr. belin. she just walked out? mr. johnson. just walked out. mr. belin. when did she walk out? mr. johnson. it was in the night. mr. belin. just the middle of the night? mr. johnson. well, we don't know what time. all the roomers had already gone to bed, so we don't know what time it was. mr. belin. did she have any pay coming from you, or not? mr. johnson. i don't know. my wife always pays her. now, i couldn't tell you. i don't remember. i've even forgotten what night she moved. i think my wife paid her on wednesday night--or on wednesdays. but i couldn't tell you what day she moved. mr. belin. the last time she worked for you, when she left did she give you any notice? mr. johnson. no. the last--the last time was the one i had reference to. mr. belin. i mean, the first time that she worked for you? or don't you remember? mr. johnson. uh--i don't remember. mr. belin. all right. in any case, this man, o. h. lee, came to rent a room from you or from your wife? mr. johnson. yes. mr. belin. could you describe how you came to find out that this man had another name other than o. h. lee? mr. johnson. well, it was when the officers came looking for him. mr. belin. when was this? mr. johnson. uh--after tippit was shot, the police---- mr. belin. this would have been on november , ? mr. johnson. yes. mr. belin. and can you state what happened? mr. johnson. well, they just came down there looking for--uh--oswald. mr. belin. did they say what his full name was? mr. johnson. yes, i believe they did. mr. belin. lee harvey oswald? mr. johnson. i believe they did. mr. belin. did they say how they happened to come there? mr. johnson. well, uh--after he was--uh--apprehended out there, they searched him and found my address in his pocket. mr. belin. your address of north beckley? mr. johnson. that's right. mr. belin. all right. what happened when the officers got there? they asked you if lee harvey oswald lived there? mr. johnson. yes. mr. belin. how long had you been at the house when the officers arrived? mr. johnson. oh, probably minutes. mr. belin. do you remember about what time of the day they arrived? mr. johnson. well, it must have been around : or o'clock--the best i remember. mr. belin. when did you get home that day from your work? mr. johnson. well, it was around o'clock or maybe a little bit after. mr. belin. at the time you had gotten home, had you heard that the president had been shot? mr. johnson. yes. i heard that before i went home. mr. belin. did you hear that the president had died before you went home? mr. johnson. yes. mr. belin. so you got home sometime after you had heard that the president had died? mr. johnson. yes. mr. belin. where were you when you heard that the president had died? mr. johnson. young street. mr. belin. and is that a business? mr. johnson. we have a little restaurant there. mr. belin. you and your wife have a restaurant there? mr. johnson. yes. mr. belin. was your wife there, too? mr. johnson. yes; we work together. mr. belin. and did you hear this on the radio? mr. johnson. no. uh--we have a friend that is a policeman, works for cotton belt railroad. and he called us--called up here and told us. of course, we had heard all the sirens and everything, you know, going, and we couldn't imagine what it was. and nicholson called us and told us that he had heard it over the radio. mr. belin. he had heard over the radio that the president had been shot? mr. johnson. yes. mr. belin. and then, did you turn on your radio? mr. johnson. yes. we don't have one there in the place, so we went out in the car and sat there in the car and listened. mr. belin. all right. and was it while you were sitting in the car that you heard that the president had died? mr. johnson. yes; we didn't leave until we--it was announced that he was dead. mr. belin. how soon after that announcement did you leave? mr. johnson. i'd say minutes. mr. belin. all right. then, how long did it take you to get to north beckley? mr. johnson. it takes us about minutes. mr. belin. so that about minutes after you heard on the radio that the president had been shot, you arrived with your wife at north beckley? mr. johnson. that's right. mr. belin. did you see anyone? was mrs. roberts there? mr. johnson. yes; she was there--at the television. mr. belin. she was watching television? mr. johnson. yes. mr. belin. had this man, o. h. lee, was he there when you got there? mr. johnson. no; he had been there just--uh--before we got home. mr. belin. did mrs. roberts tell you that he had? mr. johnson. she told us that he come in and got a--uh--little coat or something and just walked in his room and right back out the door. mr. belin. now, what was the occasion of mrs. roberts telling you that? mr. johnson. well, i--just general conversation, i suppose, you know. uh--after she found out who it was---- mr. belin. oh, she told you this after she found out that this was lee harvey oswald? mr. johnson. uh-huh; that he did come in and get his coat. mr. belin. well, did she tell you this before the police came to your house? mr. johnson. no; because she had no idea. her sister, i believe it was, called her and told her to turn the television on, that kennedy had been shot. and she was over there working with the television, tuning it in, when oswald came in. mr. belin. when did she tell you this? mr. johnson. uh--just after we found out that it was--oswald. mr. belin. after you found out that o. h. lee was lee harvey oswald? mr. johnson. that's right. mr. belin. well, you started to tell me how you found this out. i believe you said the police came sometime after you got home? mr. johnson. yes. and i saw his picture on television, you know. as quick as we found out who he was, why mrs. roberts just said something about that he had come by the house here. mr. belin. well, let me backtrack a minute, now. how soon after you got home did the police come--approximately? mr. johnson. i'd say within minutes. mr. belin. all right. minutes after you got home, the police came. and what did the police say to you? mr. johnson. they asked if--uh--we had anyone by that name living there. mr. belin. by the name of lee harvey oswald? mr. johnson. yes. mr. belin. and what did you tell them? mr. johnson. we told them, "no." mr. belin. all right. and then what did they say? mr. johnson. well, they wanted to see the rooms. they had described his age, his build, and so forth, and we had two more boys rooming there. uh--and my wife was going to let them see the rooms. mr. belin. your wife was going to let them see the rooms that you had--and you had a total of roomers, i believe you said? mr. johnson. well, no. i don't know just how many roomers we had. we have bedrooms--but i don't know just, at that time, how many roomers we had. but, anyway, we had a couple of boys around his age that had moved in just a few days before, and, so, she was going to let them see their rooms. mr. belin. all right. and then what happened? mr. johnson. well, i saw his picture on television and i hollered at them and told them. they were out in the back, started around the house to the--uh--basement where these boys room. the bedrooms are all in the basement. and they were going back there. and--uh--i just called them and told them, i said, "why, it's this fellow that lives in here." mr. belin. you told them that you had seen the picture of this man on television? mr. johnson. yes. mr. belin. and did you tell them what this man was known to you as? mr. johnson. yes. mr. belin. what did they say? mr. johnson. well, they wanted to see the records, and we showed them--the register, i mean--and we showed them the register. and then they searched his room. mr. belin. you showed them the register with this name of o. h. lee? mr. johnson. that's right. mr. belin. when was it, after that, that mrs. roberts said that he had been there that day? mr. johnson. it was along about--during the conversation with these--uh--men. mr. belin. did she see his picture on television at the same time you did? mr. johnson. yes. mr. belin. did she say anything about him being o. h. lee--or not? mr. johnson. uh--yes. we all--uh--were just discussing it, you know. and she told him--i believe she did--or my wife did. said, "well, that's the reason we didn't understand who they were looking for--because we didn't know him as oswald." mr. belin. all right. who recognized his face on television first? you or mrs. roberts? mr. johnson. i believe i was the one--best i remember. mr. belin. was mrs. roberts looking at television at the same time you were then, or not? mr. johnson. well, we were all talking--talking, like i say, to the officers and so forth. and--uh--i believe though that she was looking at it at the same time i was. my wife had just stepped out of the house with the officers. mr. belin. now, what did mrs. roberts say about this man having been at the home earlier that day--this o. h. lee, which they had identified as lee harvey oswald? mr. johnson. she just--uh--i believe she told them that he came in and got a little--uh--sport coat, or some sort of a little coat, and slipped it on and went right back out. and she said that she made the remark that he--said, "you must be in a hurry"--and he didn't say anything; went on out the door. and the next thing we knew or heard of him was after tippit was shot. mr. belin. do you remember anything else she said about lee harvey oswald's visit to your home? mr. johnson. no. that's just about it. mr. belin. could you describe lee harvey oswald at all? what kind of a person was he? mr. johnson. well, he was nice enough, i'd say, as a roomer because he always kept his room nice and he was very well-behaved. he didn't--uh--talk to anyone. he might speak to you when he came in and he might not. i suppose it was according to the mood he was in, or something, i never did think too much about it--because--uh--we have so many roomers anyway that i don't pay too much attention. mr. belin. did he drink at all? mr. johnson. not that i know of. i don't--if he ever did drink a bottle of beer, i never did know it; never did smell it, or anything. mr. belin. did he smoke cigarettes--do you know? mr. johnson. i don't remember. mr. belin. do you remember if he was right-handed or left-handed? mr. johnson. [pausing before reply] no. mr. belin. did he stay out late at night or was he generally home relatively early in the evening? mr. johnson. he was home--uh--usually right after work and just--uh--i suppose he'd go out and eat or maybe to the washateria or somewhere like that. if he was ever gone any other than this--the night before the assassination, i didn't know it. it was after we had already gone to bed, if he did leave. mr. belin. what time did he leave for work in the morning, do you know? mr. johnson. i believe, around : , something like that. now, i wouldn't be sure because we leave out real early and i was never there. but i--i think that they said--mrs. roberts, i believe, or some of them--said he left around : . now, i wouldn't say for sure. mr. belin. do you know whether or not he took his lunch to work with him? mr. johnson. no; i don't. mr. belin. you don't know? mr. johnson. no. mr. belin. is there a bus that goes by or near your house that goes near to where he worked? mr. johnson. the bus comes right by the house. mr. belin. what bus is that? mr. johnson. the beckley bus. mr. belin. the beckley bus? does it stop right in front of your house? mr. johnson. it stops right--uh--well, my house is the third house from the corner, and it stops right on the corner. mr. belin. and does that go right to or near elm and houston? mr. johnson. it goes right by there. mr. belin. and can you pick up a bus near elm and houston to get right back to your house? mr. johnson. yes; i believe it goes right back down--uh--elm. mr. belin. did lee harvey oswald generally stay at your home on weekends? mr. johnson. no. mr. belin. do you know where he went? mr. johnson. uh--no; i don't. i just assumed he went home. mr. belin. by "home," you mean to---- mr. johnson. irving. i believe that's where his wife lived. mr. belin. did he ever talk to you about his wife or family? mr. johnson. no; never did. mr. belin. did you ever hear him make any telephone calls to his wife, or to someone? mr. johnson. yes, he'd make calls but i never did know who he was calling. because, like i say, he'd talk in a foreign language all the time. mr. belin. were these toll calls, or not? mr. johnson. no; so far as i know, he never put in a toll call. mr. belin. when you call irving, tex., is this a toll call, or not? mr. johnson. no; it's the same exchange. mr. belin. you said that you heard him talk in a foreign language. about how often would he make these calls? mr. johnson. most every evening after work. mr. belin. i believe you said that he generally wasn't there on weekends. is that correct? mr. johnson. yes. mr. belin. were there some weekends when he might be there--or don't you remember? mr. johnson. i don't remember. mr. belin. were there any week nights when he wasn't there? mr. johnson. uh--so far as i know, the night before the assassination, the night of the twenty--that would be the st. mr. belin. twenty-first of november? mr. johnson. the night before the assassination. mr. belin. yes. was there any other week night, apart from november , that he wasn't there--to the best of your recollection? mr. johnson. no. mr. belin. did he say anything to you before november that he wasn't going to be there that night? mr. johnson. no. mr. belin. he paid for the room by the week, didn't he? mr. johnson. yes. mr. belin. how much was his room rent? mr. johnson. i believe, $ a week. mr. belin. were your larger rooms more expensive? mr. johnson. yes. mr. belin. when a larger room became available was this ever told to him, or not? mr. johnson. i believe my wife told him but--uh--but he just--said he'd just as soon stay on in that small room, that it was handy and that he'd just stay on. mr. belin. when a person stayed by the week, did he pay his rent in advance? mr. johnson. yes. mr. belin. what day of the week would his rent be due? mr. johnson. well, i don't know what day his--oswald's--was due. they pay--if they move in on a monday, they pay it--the rent is due on monday. mr. belin. from one monday to the following monday, is that right? mr. johnson. yes. mr. belin. now, with regard to this one night that he wasn't there. were there any telephone calls for him on november ? mr. johnson. not that i know of. mr. belin. did he ever say why he was going home? did you ever know ahead of time that he was going to irving that night? mr. johnson. no. mr. belin. did you ever see him after the morning of november ? mr. johnson. no. mr. belin. is there anything else that you can think of that might be relevant or important? mr. johnson. no; i can't think of anything else because, like i say, i didn't really know the man. mr. belin. is johnny's cafe the one that you say you and your wife operate? mr. johnson. johnson's cafe. mr. belin. johnson's cafe? mr. johnson. yes; young street. mr. belin. you own that? i mean, you operate it yourself as proprietor? mr. johnson. yes. mr. belin. you're kind of a real businessman here. you rent a roominghouse, and you have a cafe, and you have carpenters. anything else, mr. johnson? mr. johnson. well, i have an apartment house and a little rental property. mr. belin. do you know anything about the assassination or about lee harvey oswald, or anything or anyone connected with oswald or the assassination that you might think would be of help? mr. johnson. no; no. i don't. mr. belin. since november , , have you ever talked to your wife or mrs. roberts about lee harvey oswald? mr. johnson. oh, yes. you know, we've discussed the thing--and--uh--i suppose you'd say that we're just more or less in shock or something, knowing that he lived there and that a thing like that happened. it's just--and all the publicity of the thing, and so forth. mr. belin. has mrs. roberts said anything further about her observations of lee harvey oswald to you? mr. johnson. no. mr. belin. do you know where we can locate her at all to talk to her? mr. johnson. no; i sure don't. mr. belin. you got a letter, by the way, saying that we would be here to take the deposition? mr. johnson. yes. mr. belin. did mrs. roberts leave before she got that letter or after? mr. johnson. why she left before. she's been gone for--i guess-- weeks, or maybe . mr. belin. before we start taking your deposition, you and i chatted briefly for a few minutes about your roominghouse, is that correct? mr. johnson. yes. mr. belin. is there anything you can think of that we talked about that we don't have recorded here on this deposition? mr. johnson. no. mr. belin. in our conversation, did you just relate to me all you knew about it, or did i try and lead you to say anything that wasn't true in any way? mr. johnson. no. mr. belin. you just told me---- mr. johnson. i told you just what little i know about it. mr. belin. anything else you can think of now? mr. johnson. that's about all i know about the man. mr. belin. one other question; i might ask you if you've ever seen the shirt--exhibit ? did you ever see oswald wearing this, or don't you remember? mr. johnson. i don't remember. he did wear sports clothes. mr. belin. do you remember anything about the clothes he was wearing? mr. johnson. no; because i didn't see him that day. mr. belin. you didn't see him that day. well, on any day--for instance, here's another exhibit here--kind of a dark blue jacket--exhibit . have you ever seen oswald wearing exhibit no. ? mr. johnson. i couldn't say. mr. belin. well, we certainly thank you, mr. johnson, for all of your cooperation. i know this has been time consuming on your part here. mr. johnson. well, we've always tried to cooperate because, you know they've brought so much publicity down on us there and we've kinda felt bad about it. so we've just thought the thing out and thought that it could happen to anybody that deals with the public, you know--rents rooms or anything. mr. belin. by the way--i don't know if i asked you. you can sign the deposition or you can waive the signing of it and just have the court reporter record it as she has it recorded here. do you want to sign it or do you just want to waive the signing of it? mr. johnson. well, it doesn't make any difference because it's---- mr. belin. well, if it doesn't make any difference to you, will you just then waive the signing of it and save your coming down the second time here? mr. johnson. yes. mr. belin. well, we want you to know that we appreciate the fact that you've had people in and out of your house and everything else. mr. johnson. we're glad to help in any way we can, you know. mr. belin. by the way, i might ask you one question that we forgot. when the police first came on november , did they have a search warrant at all or not? or don't you remember? mr. johnson. uh--they didn't have one at the time, but they called and got one before they went into his room. mr. belin. they called and got a search warrant before they went in his room? mr. johnson. yes. they called over my phone. mr. belin. over your phone? you heard them call? mr. johnson. yes. mr. belin. all right. i believe that's all. thank you very much, sir. testimony of clifton m. shasteen the testimony of clifton m. shasteen was taken at : a.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. albert e. jenner, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. robert t. davis, assistant attorney general of texas, was present. mr. jenner. would you rise and take the oath, please? mr. shasteen. all right. mr. jenner. do you swear in your testimony to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth? mr. shasteen. i do. now, i want to tell you before i start--there is some question--i just have to go back from memory. mr. jenner. that's all right. all we mean when we say "the truth" is just to the best of your ability. mr. shasteen. when i ever talked to him, i never dreamed i would ever see him again--you see? mr. jenner. sure. did you receive a letter from mr. rankin, the general counsel of the commission? mr. shasteen. no; the chief of police came out yesterday afternoon. he's a good friend of mine, and he came out yesterday evening and had me to call---- mr. jenner. the secret service--mr. sorrels? mr. shasteen. yes. mr. jenner. i am albert e. jenner, jr., and a member of the legal staff of the president's commission, which is a commission appointed by president lyndon b. johnson to investigate the assassination of president john f. kennedy and all of the circumstances surrounding that tragic event. the commission was authorized by senate joint resolution , and president johnson's executive order , appointing the commission and fixing its scope of operation and its power. under the regulations of the commission, the members of the staff are authorized to take depositions and swear witnesses. we understand from various sources, fbi reports--that you may possibly have some information with respect to lee harvey oswald in which the commission is interested and there might be some other information on which we are not immediately advised that may come to your mind. mr. jenner. as i understand it, your full name is clifford---- mr. shasteen. clifton [spelling] c-l-i-f-t-o-n. mr. jenner. m is your initial? mr. shasteen. yes, sir. mr. jenner. shasteen. s-h-a-s-t-e-e-n. mr. shasteen. right. mr. jenner. you live at fairfax in irving, tex. as i understand it, you are the owner and operator of clifton's barbershop? mr. shasteen. yes. mr. jenner. at south storey in irving, tex.? mr. shasteen. right. mr. jenner. you are a native of dallas, are you? mr. shasteen. oh, i've been here about years. mr. jenner. well, that's good enough and you are married and have a family and live in irving, tex., as indicated? mr. shasteen. yes. mr. jenner. i understand that in the course of your looking at television on the d of november , there occurred to you upon seeing some of the people shown on the screen that you had rendered some tonsorial services to lee harvey oswald? mr. shasteen. i'll tell you just as near as i can remember that day--what happened is the tv shop next to me, in other words, about two doors down---- mr. jenner. next to your business? mr. shasteen. yes; i heard it over the radio and went to the house at noon and that was all you could see on television, just the flashing, but there wasn't anything definite, so i went back to the shop and as i went back to the shop this fellow in the tv shop said, "why don't you come in and get a tv set and set it up in your shop in there and watch it?" so, i went in and got a tv set and the name didn't mean anything to me when they first mentioned the name. mr. jenner. the name lee harvey oswald? mr. shasteen. it didn't mean a thing, but later on in the evening when we began to see the pictures, you know, after they had him over here--the first i remember seeing him to recognize that i had saw the face before was about--over there around o'clock, when i saw him over at the jail or something and i seen him when they come out there and when he looked toward the cameras. i didn't say anything to anybody. i had before told them, you know, what i said was just a gag--i said, "you can't tell. that guy might live here in irving." you know how guys pop off or something, but i didn't know a thing about it. i was just going on, but anyhow, when that come on there, there was several in the shop and so i decided when i saw his picture--i remembered him coming in the shop and i just knew that. it finally dawned on me where i had saw him. i knew where he lived. actually, i knew where the station wagon was that was parked, that i saw him and this lady in, so i just took out of the shop and told the boy, i said, "i'm going to run to the house and i'll be back in a minute." so, i drove up there and my lands of living, you couldn't get within blocks of that house, and knew then i was not mistaken, that that was the guy that came in my barber shop, and when i came back to the shop--when i got back to the shop somebody else had already seen me up there and said they saw cliff up there and everybody in that community knows me. when we got back to the shop, then, we began to talk about it. all three of the barbers in there have cut his hair, but i cut it more, i guess, than the rest of them did. i think the boy on the front chair cut it once and the boy in the middle chair cut it a couple of times, but i think i cut his hair three or four times. i don't know just exactly because since then--i have backed up and looked at it and tried to remember the dates he was in there and tried to tell you just the way it was--when he would come in, he was always disgruntled, and the only time i ever saw him smile--he had on a pair of yellow house shoes and i never saw any like them before. mr. jenner. sneakers? mr. shasteen. yes; slip-ons, only they were a little heavy--they were just a little heavier than just a common house shoe, and i admired them and i said, "them looks expensive," and he said, "they are not." he said, "i gave a dollar and a half for them." i said, "my goodness, where did you get a pair of house shoes for a dollar and a half?" and he said, "down in old mexico." mr. jenner. down in old mexico? mr. shasteen. and i said, "man, i'd like to have a pair of them because i have to wear a shoe built up," you see and they were heavy enough that i could build that shoe up and he said, "well, i'll get you a pair the next time i'm down there," and that is the only time he ever was nice and polite--in the conversation, any time anything would come up--anybody else would talk to him, he was just disgruntled. i remember him particularly one time. the barber in the front chair, one saturday morning, he cut his hair. you know, the barber chair is only so far from the sink, but there's not room for two men between that and the sink. well, the fellow on the front chair cut his hair and he gets up and goes back in the middle chair and gets between the barber and his bench back there and stands back behind and combs his hair. in other words, what he was trying to do--fixing to or wanting to, he just pushed him out. he was just rude and we all remembered that time, because this boy that works for me that's here, he is more or less highstrung type of guy. i mean he is a real good fellow but you wouldn't want to push him too far and i remembered that real well, and i saw him--the only time i remember seeing him, you know, other than just going in the grocery store across the street, mr. hutchison's food market, and i was down at the drugstore one night, down at williamsburg's and he was in there. mr. jenner. williamsburg's--that's in irving? mr. shasteen. yes; it's down on rock island and rogers road. and, why i remembered seeing him in there, i knew i couldn't understand his wife, and that was before--i believe it was before she had her baby. the best i remember she was pregnant. mr. jenner. had you seen her before? mr. shasteen. that's the only time i had ever saw her, that i remember. you know, she may have come to the grocery store with him but i didn't pay any attention. sometimes there were two women with him and i assumed it was mrs. paine, but mrs. paine has never been in the shop. i have saw her around, you know, like my brother-in-law used to live right across the street from her and the fellow that lives right on the corner and i'm trying to think of his name---- mr. jenner. on the fifth? mr. shasteen. and westbrook--that old gentleman, i knew him for years, but i don't never call his name and i can't think of it now to save my neck. i would know it if i hear it called, but anyhow, you know, i've stopped by and chatted with him a lot of times in the daytime. i've got some rent houses, you know, and i would get out of the shop and i would go by and see them and i would come by this fellow's house and i would stop there and i saw mrs. paine out in the yard and i know all of the people that live around there, nearly, around the paine's house, but i never had any connection with mrs. paine or mr. paine. them is the things there about oswald that i personally, you know, that i ever paid any attention to and one other time--when the boy in the middle chair cut his hair. it was on friday night and it was about or minutes to , the best i remember. now, why i am saying this is the fact that i was going to a football game. my shop has a door in the back and then there is a storage room on one side and a restroom on the other, but when you open the two doors, you see, there is just a narrow place and it kind of makes it private back there, and i change clothes back there, and i had the door but, as he came in the front door, i started out--i went out the back. the next morning this boy that works in the middle chair--he didn't go to the football game, but the boy that works there, and i slipped off and went to the football game--business had kind of slowed up about that time. but anyhow, he really was inquisitive as to where i went. he wanted to know where i was going and what i was going to do--he asked this guy cutting his hair. you see, he didn't think nothing about it then. he just thought maybe he wanted me to cut his hair and that is the only time there. of course, there is some other things that happened but i could kick my own self for. there was a -year-old boy come in with him a few times, and--not every time, but i know he has been in there as much as two or three times with him, but he never did say nothing until about or days before this incident happened. this kid was in the shop---- mr. jenner. three or four days before november ? mr. shasteen. right. this boy was in the shop and the boy in the front chair was cutting his hair, and you know how men are talking, and there is this old saying, "if you haven't heard this you haven't been around barbershops." the guys are always talking about we spend too much money overseas and we give away this and we give away that and you know, just the general consumption of the whole country and how everything is going. they talk that in the barbershop and you hear it until you want to run. mr. jenner. that's right, they solve all the problems of the world. mr. shasteen. yes; but anyhow, there was several guys in there and they were talking one evening and this kid was in there, and the best i remember, it must have been--well, some of the guys that were in there work the night shift, and i think they go to work around : or o'clock, so, i know it was around or : , or . mr. jenner. in the afternoon? mr. shasteen. yes; and this kid was in here. mr. jenner. were you there? mr. shasteen. yes; what i am saying is--after they were doing all this talking and the kid hadn't opened his mouth and the fellow on the front chair was cutting his hair and he is a quiet guy and he never says nothing about politics in no shape, form, or fashion. however, i try to keep all of us barbers out of politics because it isn't good business when you get politics in there you get out of the barber business and all this talk was going on and i could tell he was listening and directly he said, "i can tell you when you will stop all of this greed and everything." and i said, "what do you mean, son?" and, he said, "well, when you have one leader over everyone else." and, he said, leader--he didn't just say country. i remember that--how he said it. and, i said, "what do you mean 'one leader'"? and he said, "well, when you don't have a leader in every little old country and them trying to scramble with one another" and he said, "another thing, like you--you own the shop and these other fellows work for you and you get part of their money and he said when everybody has a say, when one man is not allowed to hog up the whole country and let another man starve," he says "that's when we are going to quit having wars and all this junk." and i said, "where in the world did you get that kind of stuff?" he never did answer me, but it made me so--if i knew then what i know now, i would probably have took him and bought him a steak to try to quiz him and find out who it was and where he got all of that. instead, it made me mad, just to be honest about it--i would like to have took one of them razor straps and tore him up. if he had been a -year-old boy of mine that said a thing like that he would have got it, but he got up and left the shop and i haven't heard him since, and i didn't find out where he lived, who he was or nothing. the anger in him saying that is where i did it, and i--the guy that talks like that, i know one thing i should, as mr. odum told me, i should have found out where he lived, where he went to school or something, but i didn't do it. it just made me so mad the thing i wanted him to do was get out of there. mr. jenner. mr. odum is the fbi agent? mr. shasteen. well, he's one of them, and i know mr. odum--he came back. he wasn't the first one that came to talk to me, but he has come back several times and i met him several times--i don't know. i will be honest with you--i don't--i know how to call him at any time, but that's where your old temper gets away with you. i realize now that i should have just, when the kid said that, instead of saying anything back to him--i didn't have to agree with him, but i could have found out where he lived, what he did and that kind of thing, but you know it had to take something like this before it wakes up some of us and i never give it a thought. just like oswald--i owned the shop and naturally i wanted to see every head of hair come in there that will, but the thing of it is--a guy like oswald and that kid--you just disagree with them so much that you hope they don't ever come back and that's the attitude i felt, but i know i was wrong about it, but it's done and there ain't nothing i can do about it. i just have watched and watched and i don't know a soul to ask, because oswald is dead and he's the only one i ever saw that kid with--he is the only one that i ever saw that kid with and i don't remember seeing him since that time--i don't know who he was any more than nothing. mr. jenner. how many times--you personally, now, without someone else having told you the boy was in the shop, how many times do you recall when he was in your shop? mr. shasteen. the -year-old boy? mr. jenner. yes. mr. shasteen. three times--i know. in other words, i know he came with oswald the night i'm talking about when he wanted to know where i was going and i went to the back door. you see, i seen them coming in and i did hurry to get out the back door. mr. jenner. the boy came in? mr. shasteen. he was with him that night and he was with him one other time. mr. jenner. can you fix that particular time? mr. shasteen. well, it was a couple of weeks and maybe weeks before that night. mr. jenner. excuse me--the night you say you were going out to the football game--when was that? mr. shasteen. it was friday night and this was the last time oswald came in and i'm just saying this as near as i think, but i think it was--in other words--was it thursday or friday that the president was killed? mr. jenner. friday the d. mr. shasteen. well, it was probably weeks before that. mr. jenner. two weeks before that? mr. shasteen. and it was about monday night before that when the kid--it could be a week's difference there, but i don't think it is. mr. jenner. the d was on a friday. this football game incident occurred, you think, weeks prior? mr. shasteen. yes. mr. jenner. that would be the evening of the th of november? mr. shasteen. i believe that's right, just as near right as i can get it. mr. jenner. that was a high school football game on friday night, as i remember? mr. shasteen. yes; like i say, it could have possibly been weeks prior to that, but i'm almost sure it wasn't. i'm so nearly sure--i would say it was almost for sure. mr. jenner. it could possibly have been the st of november but you are pretty sure that it was the th? mr. shasteen. i just nearly knew it was the th, i think it was the th and i'll tell you why i think it was the th. mr. jenner. all right. mr. shasteen. the fact is, he never did want his hair cut--he always wanted it to look like it was about a week old when he cut it and he got a haircut about every weeks, and i don't think he ever went over weeks--he either got a haircut on friday night or saturday morning, and in running that back through my mind, and i thought about it then and i have since. mr. jenner. and on that occasion was this -year-old boy with him? mr. shasteen. yes. mr. jenner. and that is the occasion when you were sneaking out to the football game? mr. shasteen. yes. mr. jenner. and you did see him and you did see the -year-old boy on that occasion? mr. shasteen. yes. mr. jenner. which of your employees cut his hair that night, if you know of your own knowledge. mr. shasteen. buddy lowe, the one that just works part time. mr. jenner. the new man--the middle chair? mr. shasteen. yes, and the only thing--he had told me the next morning, you know, about it and i wondered why i didn't think something about the character, but the next morning, he said, "man, that guy was really inquisitive about where you were going last night." that guy that come in with him. of course, we don't know his name from adam and we have lots of customers that we don't know their names. mr. jenner. when he came in with the -year-old boy, did the -year-old boy get his hair cut at the same time? mr. shasteen. no. mr. jenner. he just sat in the shop? mr. shasteen. he just come with him. i assumed, and i'm just saying this because i haven't ever saw him before and never saw him other than with oswald, that he doesn't live in irving. mr. jenner. he did not? mr. shasteen. i don't believe the boy lived there, because, you know, in other words--it has been in the back of my mind and the last--and when i see schoolkids. i'm always kind of wondering if i'm ever going to see him again and i never, had never saw that kid since. mr. jenner. you have never seen that boy since? mr. shasteen. no. mr. jenner. now, normally, this man you have in mind has his hair cut every weeks? mr. shasteen. yes. mr. jenner. either on friday night or on saturday morning? mr. shasteen. right. mr. jenner. and there were occasions when you personally cut his hair? mr. shasteen. yes; i think i cut it--i know of three times that i cut it and i might have cut it more than that, but i don't think that i did because you just can't hardly forget a guy like that or you can't miss knowing him when he is in your chair. mr. jenner. you cut his hair three times and your other barbers in your shop, your employees, also cut his hair, is that right? mr. shasteen. that's right. mr. jenner. and over what period of time---- mr. shasteen. oh, i would say we cut his hair five or possibly six times. mr. jenner. five or six times? mr. shasteen. at least. mr. jenner. five and possibly six? mr. shasteen. at least--being in the barber business and all and studying people and all, they might go an extra week, but ordinarily, you know, in cutting their hair, you can tell about how long they've gone--in other words, if you knew how they cut it before, you can tell just about how long they have gone for a haircut, and that's what i was referring to a while ago, and it was about weeks before that, and the only times i can remember definitely out of the five times and possibly six he was in my shop--i'd say that all the five or six times was in succession either, it might have been--he may have missed some haircuts and one or two in between somewhere in there. mr. jenner. that is, you mean he might have had his hair cut somewhere else? mr. shasteen. yes. mr. jenner. i'm just trying to figure out this d and the th--did this hair-cutting go back into the summer? mr. shasteen. you know, that's--like i say, that's a saying--to point back, and you know, just to say that that is the first time this guy has come in here--i just can't pinpoint the first time. in other words, it has been hard and i have tried to think, especially after i got that call yesterday evening to come over here. i tried to run that back through my mind and i wouldn't say when was the first time he was in there and of course we have talked about it--me and the barbers, and it seemed to me like there was a dead spot in there. sometime--maybe a month or weeks that we might not have saw him, be the first time i cut his hair, but the last three haircuts--it seemed to me like he was pretty regular. mr. jenner. what? mr. shasteen. he was pretty regular--at the last three. mr. jenner. so, if you had a dead spot, allowing for--let's say getting a haircut somewhere else occasionally, or not coming in precisely at the end of every -week period and having in mind that your present recollection is at least five or six occasions, that would run it back into the summertime? mr. shasteen. yes; it was. in other words, or or months that we had been seeing him, but i don't know just exactly to the date or nothing. mr. jenner. on how many of these occasions would you say--does your recollection serve you--as to whether he was accompanied by this -year-old boy? mr. shasteen. twice--in other words--the only times i remember seeing the boy was twice when he was with him. he was with him the night he got the haircut, the last time he was in the shop, and he was with him before that, the time before that this kid was with him. the two last times he was in the shop, this boy was with him, and that's the only time i ever saw the boy with him, but then about--in other words, what i am saying, he came in on friday, was--we'll say it is the th there and then a week from this coming monday the boy was in and got a haircut, but oswald wasn't with him. the boy came in by himself and that tries to contradict what i said that i don't think he lived in irving, but why i said i don't think he lived in irving, i have never saw him before and i have been there years and i have seen so many kids grow up and i know their names, but i know their faces, but i just have never saw him before, and that's one of those times that you are sorry that you, like i said, let your temper get away. since then i have really wished--if i had done something, because this kid in my estimation, even though he is warped in his thinking, and i think he is warped, he could be helped if somebody could get ahold of him, but i was the one that had an opportunity to try to and i let it slip. mr. jenner. what do you charge for a haircut? mr. shasteen. $ . . mr. jenner. and that is cash on the barrelhead, isn't it? mr. shasteen. yes, sir. i tell you that much--like somebody comes in and wants to know if they can get a free haircut, and when somebody goes to giving you something, you had better watch out--you had better be careful. mr. jenner. and you manage the till? mr. shasteen. well, no, sir; each one of us, we all have our same drawers. i don't have a cash register, we have drawers, and that way, if they give the wrong change back, it's not anything out of my pocket. mr. jenner. you cut hair and you have two---- mr. shasteen. i have one full time and one part time. mr. jenner. you have three chairs? mr. shasteen. yes. mr. jenner. on the occasions you saw this man would you describe his appearance so far as his attire is concerned? how was he dressed? mr. shasteen. the best i remember is that he had on some kind of coveralls, nearly every time he came in. mr. jenner. coveralls? mr. shasteen. yes; he wore unionalls or coveralls, you know, sir. they were g.i., of some description and they were green or a khaki-colored. the only time he wasn't dressed that way when he came in the shop was the night i went to the football game and that night he had on a pair of old worn out dress pants of some kind, they were dark, and he had on a sports shirt with his shirttail out. mr. jenner. let me get at these coveralls--would you describe them? mr. shasteen. they buttoned down the front. mr. jenner. they buttoned down the front and they had sleeves--it was a one-piece unit? mr. shasteen. right. mr. jenner. and covers you from top to bottom, full sleeves? mr. shasteen. now, one pair--one time i remember--he had pretty hairy arms. i remember that about him, you know, he had black hair on his arms, and one time he had on short sleeves. these coveralls had the sleeves cut off and they were ragged--i mean--they were long sleeves originally but they had just been chopped off. he is the type of guy that when you met him you couldn't hardly forget him. i'll say that. i mean, there is just something about him and i think i could say that for all three of us that worked there in the shop that every time he came in--we would ask him to come back, but right down deep we didn't want him back. mr. jenner. did he ever get a shave? mr. shasteen. no; never did. mr. jenner. did he ever get a shampoo? mr. shasteen. no; never did. mr. jenner. nothing but a haircut? mr. shasteen. just a haircut. mr. jenner. and what color did you say these coveralls were? mr. shasteen. well, they were either--i don't know what color you call them old dungarees. you know, them old combat coveralls that the army wears. that's what they were. now, somebody, i believe that mr. odum is the one that asked me was they marine coveralls or army or something like that, and that, i don't have any idea on. mr. jenner. they were the military type? mr. shasteen. they were the military type. they wasn't the kind you just go down to the dry goods store and buy. i know that. he may have bought them at a surplus store for all i know. mr. jenner. now, were there occasions you saw this man that you have in mind on the street when he didn't come into your shop? mr. shasteen. yes, i saw him going to the grocery store when he didn't come to the shop. mr. jenner. and you occasionally saw him--is the grocery store across the street? mr. shasteen. yes, sir. mr. jenner. that's hutch's market? mr. shasteen. yes. mr. jenner. and how was he dressed on those occasions? mr. shasteen. well, i think most usually, like i said, the only time i ever saw him with anything but those coveralls on was that night he came in the shop--he had those on--those old coveralls on when he was over there and another thing, they were big for him. i always noticed they were big enough for him and somebody else. mr. jenner. they were very loose-fitting? mr. shasteen. yes. mr. jenner. and even on those occasions when you saw him across the street at hutch's, he had the coveralls, the military-type coveralls on? mr. shasteen. yes; of course. he could have went in there times i didn't see him. and i don't know how many times i saw him but i have seen him over there. mr. jenner. well, i just want the times that you saw him. mr. shasteen. i wouldn't even commence to guess--probably three or four times over there. mr. jenner. you saw him about three or four times across the street? mr. shasteen. in other words, his store sits over here and my shop is here and these glasses, lot of them down here, a lot of times if somebody has been in the shop that you are paying attention to, you can even see them in the back mirrors, back there and he--and you just notice and you are always looking at the front door. i mean, since i own the shop i ask everybody in. mr. jenner. do you have the chair next to the window? mr. shasteen. no; i have the back chair. mr. jenner. you didn't cut the young man's hair? mr. shasteen. no; he was in the front chair--the front barber chair with mr. glover. mr. jenner. and would you describe this young man to me, how was he dressed? mr. shasteen. well, he had on blue jeans and they fit tight and he had on an old striped shirt. i remember him just like i see a picture over there right now and he was a husky kid, he wasn't what you call fat, but he was strong--broad-shouldered--he had a real full, and when i say full, i don't mean a round fat face, he was a wide-faced kid. you know, he was a nice looking kid. i mean, if he had had the personality and the teaching and the understanding to go with his looks, he could have done anything he wanted to do, but his personality to me made him look terrible and what he thought, and naturally when somebody disagrees with you to the point you get angry with them, you don't think much of their looks, but if you bring it down to his looks, he was blue-eyed, blonde-headed--he was not a light blonde he was a dark blonde. in fact a lot of people might call him brown-headed. but he wasn't nobody's dummy because a -year-old boy can't spit out--i wouldn't attempt to say just how he said everything, but the things that struck me when he belittled our country and our leaders as a whole--i might disagree with our leaders but i'll stick up for them when it comes time--down to the point. mr. jenner. sure, and you have a distinct recollection, do you, that there were occasions when you saw this man in the coveralls over at hutch's market that he was accompanied by somebody else? mr. shasteen. yes. mr. jenner. and did you recognize any of the persons who were accompanying him? mr. shasteen. no; i wouldn't say i did because most of the time--they headed--they got out of the car and we saw their backs, and i would see him and i just knew it was him. once you cut somebody's hair that close you are close enough so that you know them outside or when you see them. mr. jenner. so, you're not in a position, i take it, then, to say that you have a distinct recollection that mrs. paine accompanied them at anytime? mr. shasteen. well, now, that part of it i would have to take for granted because they were in his car. now, she, i understand through one of the men who questioned me out at the shop, said he never did drive her car. again, i'm going to disagree because i know that he did. he drove it up there and got a haircut. mr. jenner. you have a distinct recollection that on occasions when this man came into your shop for a haircut, he drove an automobile up to your shop? mr. shasteen. he drove that there , i think it's a , i'm sure it's a chevrolet station wagon. it's either blue and white or green and white--it's two-toned--i know that. now, why i say--why i take it for granted that mrs. paine was with him when he come to the grocery store--i do remember he wasn't driving when they would come to the grocery store, there would be a lady driving and i'm assuming that that was mrs. paine, because like i say, i have been--i have never been close enough to her and knew it, to speak to her, but she trades at the service station where i do and i saw her in there and i never did pay any attention to her and i saw her passing, met her in the road in the car and those things. mr. jenner. were there any occasions when you have a recollection as to his being accompanied by more than one person? mr. shasteen. yes; that's what i said--i saw him and two ladies get out and go in the store. mr. jenner. on how many occasions did you see that? mr. shasteen. well, i was trying to think of that coming over here and i know of twice and one of the times that i'm saying--it was the next morning after he had gotten a haircut the night i went to the football game, the next morning they were over to the store. you see, i open up early around in the morning and it was o'clock, or so, not knowing the exact hour. i would say it was o'clock or : when they were over at the store that saturday morning. mr. jenner. that would be the th of november? mr. shasteen. yes; because one reason it made me remember that, i had just come back--i had just come back from across the street to get some cigarettes and they come up and pulled in and i walked over and naturally i looked back across the street and i saw them getting out and he wasn't driving at that time. i will agree but whenever i saw him come with somebody else in the car he wasn't driving, but occasionally he drove himself up there to get a haircut and mr. odum says, "now, that contradicts with some of the other information." i said, "i can't help what it contradicts with, that's just the fact and that's it." mr. jenner. was there ever an occasion when you saw him driving up that he had the year-old boy with him? mr. shasteen. yes; the night he got the haircut. mr. jenner. the night of november ? mr. shasteen. yes; you see the difficulty was, i was wanting to get out of giving a haircut and i had just gotten through with a guy, and i was trying to get my tools put up and they pulled up in front and i kind of left them half cocked, half cleaned up, and i ran back in the closet to try to get away, because i saw there was two of them, you see, and i figured they both would want a haircut. when they pulled up with the headlights and i saw two get out i figured they both would want a haircut. mr. jenner. this was night, was it? mr. shasteen. yes. mr. jenner. and it was dark? mr. shasteen. well, yes; it was done dark outside--i couldn't tell who they were when they drove up but he was driving that night and i was hurrying trying to get out and i went out the back door, because ordinarily, if there had been two, one of them would have wanted me to cut his hair and the other one would want the other boy to, and i thought, well, maybe they can wait and let me go to the football game. it's hard for me to get away for a football game and that night was when the boy was with him and he drove up there. mr. jenner. do you recall bring interviewed by fbi agent berry on the d of december? mr. shasteen. yes, sir. and he is from oklahoma, i believe. he came on the th, i mean on the d, and came back on the d. mr. jenner. now, do you recall saying at that time that you had a recollection that he had been at your shop for the purpose of obtaining a haircut for the past or months? mr. shasteen. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and when was the occasion in point of time that this business respecting the yellow shoes occurred--how far prior to that? mr. shasteen. in other words on the th there, he got a haircut on a friday night. mr. jenner. yes. mr. shasteen. and i would say it was or weeks before that on saturday morning, because i was the only one in the shop and he was the first one there that morning. mr. jenner. on reflection, you fix it as to weeks on a saturday morning prior to november ? mr. shasteen. right. mr. jenner. that would take us back to--that would be either the th of october or the th of october? mr. shasteen. possibly; yes, sir. mr. jenner. could it have been to months prior? mr. shasteen. i don't believe so, not when he had the shoes on, the house shoes on that morning, because the thing that made me remember that was the fact that it seemed like i'd found something he agreed with me on. he even smiled about this; you know, he had a good look on his face when i complimented his house shoes. mr. jenner. what time of day was this? mr. shasteen. oh, it was probably : in the morning. mr. jenner. it was a saturday morning? mr. shasteen. yes, sir. mr. jenner. do you recall telling agent berry that when he interviewed you on the d of december , that your faint recollection of oswald was when he appeared in the shop, your shop on a saturday, " or months ago at : in the morning," when you had just opened your shop? mr. shasteen. yes, sir. the first time i remember him was early one morning. mr. jenner. and that you remembered him particularly because on this particular occasion he was wearing house shoes which you considered out of the ordinary? mr. shasteen. now, he wore house shoes every time he come over there in the mornings. i think he may have that a little bit crossed there when he and i talked about it. mr. jenner. and that you also said you had commented to oswald concerning the house shoes and suggested that they must be quite expensive and oswald said, "no; not where i bought them," and you stated that he said he had purchased the shoes in old mexico for only a dollar and a half? mr. shasteen. right. mr. jenner. now, you will notice there is an inconsistency there--you were firm that the house shoes incident occurred to weeks prior to november , but in reporting this to agent berry on the rd of december, you stated it occurred to months prior thereto. mr. shasteen. i believe--to tell you the truth, i think in the round of the talking, i think he just taken that for granted. i don't believe on that morning--what we were talking about when i said what made me remember it--like even the night when i saw his picture on television and all, was the fact that that's the only time, about his house shoes, is the only time he ever was agreeable--i'll put it that way, in other words, but he didn't talk much then. in other words, when that was over he just hushed. mr. jenner. this hasn't been called to your attention, but is it your testimony then, as i understand it, that you are firm that the incident occurred to weeks prior to november rather than to months and you think agent berry misinterpreted it? mr. shasteen. he either misinterpreted what i said---- mr. jenner. or jumped to a conclusion? mr. shasteen. yes. mr. jenner. would you describe these coveralls a little bit further--they were full length? mr. shasteen. yes, sir. mr. jenner. did they zipper or button down the front? mr. shasteen. well, that i wouldn't--you know, to make a statement to say i knew, i wouldn't say, but i would almost say that they buttoned. at least they had a button at the top. mr. jenner. and did he normally have them buttoned up to the top, or did he have them open at the throat? mr. shasteen. yes; he had them open, but another thing--you know--there are little things, like we get to thinking about now--i know that these old coveralls--he wore them like that [indicating]. mr. jenner. he wore them with the collar up? mr. shasteen. yes; and just flopping out. mr. jenner. and you remember one occasion when the coveralls, while they were long sleeved, somebody had sheared off the sleeves on a particular pair? mr. shasteen. yes; they were just ragged, they were just chopped off. mr. jenner. otherwise, the sleeves were always long down to his wrists? mr. shasteen. i'll tell you this--one of the barbers said his head was dirty when he cut his hair, but he was always clean when i worked on him. mr. jenner. it's hard to explain. mr. shasteen. yes. mr. jenner. would you describe these house shoes, please? mr. shasteen. well, yes; they were--i wish i could find something--they were a darker yellow than this right here [indicating]. and they had a much tanner sole on them--it was almost what you call a brown sole. it wasn't a leather, it wasn't a rubber, it was like a neoprene. mr. jenner. the soles were darker than the uppers? mr. shasteen. yes. mr. jenner. were they firm leather, or soft or pliable? mr. shasteen. they were soft and nice, but they were sturdy house shoes. of course--like i said, i build a shoe up--one shoe and they made me notice them, and they were the type you could have built one up and they would still have stood up and been nice. mr. jenner. were these house shoes that had flat soles without heels? mr. shasteen. yes--they didn't have no heels--they may have had a little heel, but i mean they didn't have an extra heel, because i looked at them good. i mean, i wasn't interested in them until he said he got them from old mexico, and i knew that was out. mr. jenner. were they the pull-on type or lace type? mr. shasteen. no; they were the--just the pull-on type. mr. jenner. did they have any type of elastic in them? mr. shasteen. no--no elastic--they were just like loafers to a degree, only they were nice shoes--it was just a slip-on and they had a spur piece in the back. mr. jenner. a spur piece? mr. shasteen. you know what i mean--the back wasn't so flexible--it was firm--a fitted heel. they were just real nice. mr. jenner. they had a reasonably firm or higher heel? mr. shasteen. in other words--what i'm talking about--up on the back part of them. mr. jenner. the back part is what i'm talking about. mr. shasteen. yes. mr. jenner. what we call the heel of the shoe--the back of the shoe, not the heel you step on. mr. shasteen. yes--this part here and then they had a round thing, you know, like this here [indicating] only it went out and dropped down to a point out here and had a seam sewed around the top, whatever it was. mr. jenner. like a moccasin type? mr. shasteen. yes; they looked like a moccasin to a degree and these loafers, as you called them, but they were in between. mr. jenner. were they perfectly plain other than the moccasin sewing? mr. shasteen. yes; i believe they were--they didn't have no--that's the reason i thought they would have been from mexico is they, if they had had a lot of trimmings on them or something like that, but they didn't have. mr. jenner. did they have fasteners of any type on them? mr. shasteen. no; that's why i liked them. they were just something i could've jumped in. mr. jenner. no metal fasteners? mr. shasteen. they didn't have nothing. mr. jenner. or even leather fasteners? mr. shasteen. if somebody would find them i would still give two and a half for them. mr. jenner. how many haircuts did he get---- mr. shasteen. well---- mr. jenner. six or seven, is that what you said? mr. shasteen. no; he could have possibly gotten seven haircuts but i think about six haircuts is what he got. it could have possibly been five. i know personally three times i cut his hair and i know that the front guy cut his hair one time, mr. glover, and mr. law cut his hair one time and buddy--he might have cut it one other time and if he did that would've made six. mr. jenner. do you recall telling agent berry that in all this man had obtained six or seven haircuts at your shop? mr. shasteen. i told him it was possibly six or seven, you know, in other words--he didn't pin me down to just exactly--he wanted to know if i thought it was and i told him it could have been seven times. mr. jenner. seven or eight? mr. shasteen. no; i believe--i don't believe he ever got eight haircuts in there--i don't believe it could have been over seven. mr. jenner. well, what i'm getting at is that the agent reports as you said that oswald had obtained seven or eight haircuts at your shop. mr. shasteen. you see, i told him about the times i remembered and he said, "could he possibly have been in here more than that?" and i said, "sure he could have possibly been in here more than that, but to have an actual remembrance of him--i wouldn't." mr. jenner. but in any event, your present recollection, after thinking it through further, is that it was six, and it might even have been as few as five? mr. shasteen. it could have been five, but i personally know of five times he was in there and like i told him, he could have been in there two or three other times when i wasn't in there, because sometimes, it's not very often i do, but occasionally mr. law will open up in the morning and i won't be there right on time. because, like i said, i went to a football game and that--there could have been other times that he came in that i wasn't there, but i asked buddy did he ever remember cutting his hair and he said he thought he did cut it another time than the time--so if he did, there was six times, and of course, mr. glover, he doesn't keep up with whose hair he cuts as much as some of the others--he's not a friendly type guy, but buddy said he might have cut his hair more than once. the things that made us know when he cut his hair is like when mr. glover cut his hair, he went around and instead of using his back bar to look in the mirror and comb his hair, he went down to the one at the middle chair and just rudely pushed out of the way and he got up there and combed his hair and turned his water on, you know, and got some more oil and put on it, on his hair, and he didn't say thank you or excuse me or nothing. he just pushed in there--those things make you remember. mr. jenner. did he ever give you a tip? mr. shasteen. no. mr. jenner. did he ever give any of the other barbers a tip? mr. shasteen. no. mr. jenner. is it customary for your customers to give you a tip? mr. shasteen. no, sir. mr. jenner. or customers to give your barbers a tip? mr. shasteen. well, naturally, they get more tips than i do because i own the shop. it would be a very small percentage, because in a community like that they just expect to pay what the price is. mr. jenner. and no tips? mr. shasteen. no; you know, you might get cents or a dollar a day--something like if somebody might pitch something up there and say, "get you some coffee." it's not that type of a barber shop--it's not a hotel type or anything like that or a bus station type. mr. jenner. did this man have any reaction to the haircuts you gave him? mr. shasteen. well, instead of saying--i get tickled thinking about it--i don't mean it's funny, but it is irritating. i mean, it's funny since it's over, but he never did say, "that looks nice," or "that's all right." he would say, "aw, that's pretty good, that will do until i get another one or that will do for this time." he never did say, "that's a good haircut." i do remember him saying, "take a d off of the temple." well, you can't take a d off of a man's hair, you know. mr. jenner. he did come back then? mr. shasteen. yes; we have talked about that--i don't care if we put it on the record--it's the truth with us barbers--we have laughed about it, but he's not the only one that said, "take a third of it," you know. we laughed about his saying, "take a d," or he would say, "take a th off of the top," or something. i do remember him saying them things. mr. jenner. do you think he was just kidding about it? mr. shasteen. well, i don't know but to barbers that's silly, you know. it's just ridiculous for a man to say "take a d," or raise his temples a d or take a th or something off of the top. you cut hair like the shingles on a house. you cut it to where it will feather in and not leave gaps. if you pulled it all up and cut it all the same length and turned it back down on your head, you would have a mess. mr. jenner. it would look pretty bad? mr. shasteen. it sure would. mr. jenner. it might look like some of the haircuts i get, occasionally. mr. shasteen. but those things--i believe that news reporter--i have forgotten which she was, but she asked me a while ago a few things about him and i said, "he's just the type of guy you couldn't forget but you just hoped he never come back." but she wasn't--she wanted to know what kind of nature he was or something like that. that's what makes barbering interesting--you meet all kinds. mr. jenner. yes, sir; i'm sure you do. mr. shasteen. yes. and like you were talking about there he came back--one time one of the barbers--now this time i don't know, more know which time it was than anything, but there was somebody sitting out in the chair, and they made a remark about him saying take a certain amount off and after he left, i said, "well, we get that amount off." and this fellow said, "how in the world do you do that?" and i said, "well, we satisfy him--and if he is real satisfied, when he leaves, he comes back." i always make dry cracks and things like that, that breaks the monotony in the shop and i have practiced it, and it's hard for me to be serious sometimes, you know, about things, and you just have to break the monotony in the barber shop or people would get in there and get soured on the world. mr. jenner. now, mr. robert davis has come in and he is a special assistant attorney general of texas, and this is mr. shasteen, mr. davis. he owns and operates a barber shop in irving, tex. mr. davis. yes--mr. shasteen. mr. shasteen. yes. mr. jenner. did these coveralls have any pockets in them? mr. shasteen. yes. mr. jenner. would you give me--what do they look like, looking at them just the full front? mr. shasteen. well, the full front? mr. davis. yes; as i'm looking at you now across the desk here. mr. shasteen. well, the ones that were cut off at the sleeves, i can remember the most. they just had some old pockets up here--[indicating]. mr. jenner. on each breast area? mr. shasteen. yes. mr. jenner. was that a large pocket, large patch pocket? mr. shasteen. no; they were just outside patch pockets and pockets on the front were patch pockets, i believe. mr. jenner. do you mean at the hip on either side? mr. shasteen. they had some front pockets on either side. mr. jenner. just one pocket or two? mr. shasteen. now, you pin me down until--to say that, i don't know. i noticed the top, but i did notice the hip pockets they had two hip pockets on them. when he got his billfold out, i just wondered how in the world, if he ever sat down he didn't lose the thing. you know, they were big enough--that's why i said they were big enough for two. they sagged and the pockets just leaned back and you could have just walked up and reached in there and got his billfold and never touched him. mr. jenner. none of these pockets had flaps or buttons on them? mr. shasteen. i think the two of them up here maybe had a flap. mr. jenner. the two top ones had a flap? mr. shasteen. the hip pockets didn't--they didn't have no flap or button. mr. jenner. they were patch pockets, too? mr. shasteen. yes. mr. jenner. and these coveralls were so loose fitting that it made the pockets hang down? mr. shasteen. yes; they were just real loose. even if you had a belt on them that pulled them around or something--i just couldn't stand to wear something shuffling through it like that. mr. jenner. and the best of your recollection is that there were two breast pockets and at least one hip or side pocket. mr. shasteen. well, i'm sure they had side pockets in front. mr. jenner. were those also patch? mr. shasteen. i believe they were. mr. jenner. and they had two hip rear patch pockets? mr. shasteen. yes. mr. jenner. was there anything unusual about the pockets that drew your attention, i'm talking about the front ones, now? mr. shasteen. no; not anything unusual about the front ones, but the hip pockets were gapped open and sagged down. mr. jenner. because these coveralls were so ill fitting? mr. shasteen. because they were just too big--they could have had about inches cut out of them. mr. jenner. you barbers are generally pretty talkative. did you seek to engage this man in conversation when he came into your shop? mr. shasteen. you couldn't do it. mr. jenner. did you seek to do it? mr. shasteen. oh, yes; naturally--she don't need to write this down because this ain't going to help you a bit what i'm fixing to say, but the theory i work on as a barber--if a man gets in a chair, and i tell my other barbers that, if he gets in a chair and you strike up a conversation with him and he doesn't want to talk, don't talk to him--you say just as little as you can. mr. jenner. that makes sense. mr. shasteen. but if the guy wants to talk, then talk to him, if he--if you can talk to him on his level or understand the thing he's talking about, but if a man gets in your chair and he doesn't want to talk, you can find it out without him turning around and saying, "cut my hair, i didn't come in here to have a bull session." i mean, that's barber shop language, and i try to practice that, and nearly any time he come in i would mention the weather or a football game--i mean, a barber has to get up and read the paper every morning and turn the radio on because everybody that comes in, if you're not up on the latest things that's happening, you're going to be sitting back there and you can't talk to them. i usually run through the paper real hurriedly and see the headlines at least and i turn the radio on and you just couldn't strike up a conversation with him and i guess if i had ever mentioned politics to him, but we try to avoid that as much as possible in the shop. had i ever talked politics with him, i might have gotten him on that but since he was the type guy he was, i never cared to talk politics with him. mr. jenner. well, in any event, he evidenced no interest in the bull session, as you described it? mr. shasteen. no. mr. jenner. is that true of your helpers? mr. shasteen. the front chair barber--he is the type barber that doesn't talk a lot anyway and he would talk about fishing or wrestling a little bit, but i don't think he ever said half a dozen words to him altogether. he told him how he wanted his hair cut. you might attempt to ask me what kind of haircut he wore. mr. jenner. all right, go ahead. mr. shasteen. you could just name it, because he didn't wear it long and he didn't wear it short. it was almost short enough to stand up but it was too long to stand up. he just wore a rough shod haircut because many times i thought, "boy, you sure ought to let this grow out up here where it will lay down and comb nice or either cut it off where it would stand up." but like i say, he wanted that little bit taken off. i tell you what he did do--he did try to make the barber work all he could. he seemed like he wanted you to do all the work and naturally, that's another thing, i have a bad attitude towards some people. if a guy doesn't ask me to do much, i'll do a right smart, but if he thinks i owe him something, he won't get any extras. mr. jenner. what color hair did this man have? mr. shasteen. oh, he was dark headed--i wouldn't say he was real black, you know, what i mean, he wasn't jet black, but most people would call him black-headed. mr. jenner. what color would you say your hair was? mr. shasteen. mine is dark brown, and what is not grey up it's covered up with oil. mr. jenner. what color would you say mine is? mr. shasteen. oh, now i think your hair is--it's a shade of black. it's not a dark black. i would say his hair was about the color of yours--it might have been a little bit darker. it might have been a little smuttier. you see, hair is a funny thing--a guy can be dark headed and if he puts oil on it, he looks real black and if he washes the oil out it's got a smutty look and he never did wear much oil because about the only time he ever come in the shop, he never had his hair combed and he never had any oil on it or nothing and naturally after we cut his hair and put a little oil on it, it made it look darker. mr. jenner. it darkened it up? mr. shasteen. my hair is a whole lot darker with a little oil on it. now, this fellow here, referring to mr. davis---- mr. jenner. mr. davis, you're talking about? mr. shasteen. his hair, if you took the oil off of his hair and washed it out with some kind of heavy shampoo, it would almost be what you call a blonde or light red, is that right? mr. davis. (no response.) mr. jenner. how much hair did he have? a full head of hair? mr. shasteen. to me, he didn't have a full head of hair. it was rather short and thin around here by the temples and the way his hair lies back, he would have been bald if he had been years old. mr. jenner. he had hair around the center, but he was losing his hair around the sides of the forehead? mr. shasteen. yes; there was just a little crease that started back here. naturally, a barber would notice that because the hair is much finer back here, you see, than it was down here [indicating]. in other words, i have as much hair as i ever had but it's just so fine you can't see it and that's what happens to a guy when he gets bald-headed. the hair is still there but it just doesn't grow. it's just little fuzz, and that hair of his, in another or years he would have been bald-headed. you can believe it. i can tell you another thing--i don't know whether i told this fellow or not, may have. there are little things you can't remember, but he just had a hard look, just sitting in the chair. i'll tell you this much--if a guy comes in the barbershop and he's got a pretty good disposition and he smiles and speaks to people, every barber will want to cut his hair, but if a guy comes in there and he kind of looks grouchy, in barber language we call it soldiering on one another. we might work on a guy just a little bit longer if this guy's next so somebody else will have to get him. he's just the type guy you don't care about working on. i mean, he was just that type. i believe i can speak for all three of the barbers because i have heard their opinion about him. they didn't care if he never came back. and, he never helped the shop. well, you will say, how can a customer help the shop? when you ask a man to come back, when he starts out the door and if he says, "thank you," or "i'll be back," or "i'll see you in weeks,"--that's the language that is used around the barbershop, that helps the feeling at the barbershop, but if ask a guy going out the door to come back and he didn't even grunt, you know, that just lowers its morale in a barbershop right quick. i know that customers don't think about that, but we as barbers--that's our business and we watch that and you would be surprised, if a guy comes in and you give a haircut and you thank him, when he pays you, and the barber ordinarily when he leaves for that door, when he starts out, he asks him to come back and if he says, "i'll see you in weeks," or "thank you for asking me to come back," it just builds up the morale in a shop, but he wasn't that type. mr. jenner. i might have misled you a little bit ago--i mentioned your being interviewed on the d of december. the fact is that interview was on the d, was it not, the d of december? mr. shasteen. the fact is--why i say that, he came one day--i didn't put the dates down and i didn't try to remember them, but he came one day and i was real busy--the kids were trying to get a haircut for some program. mr. jenner. the d of december was on a monday? mr. shasteen. yes; i believe he came monday and then he came back tuesday. in other words, he came one day and he got there a little late and the kids were having their pictures made up at the school there nearby and they were sitting in there and he said, "suppose i come back tomorrow?" he said, "i have some other places i need to go." and i told him it would be fine or i would take him in a few minutes. mr. jenner. do you recall mr. odum interviewing at a later time, the th of december? mr. shasteen. yes; but he didn't make any notes to my knowledge, but i cut his hair. mr. jenner. he made notes all right, i can tell you that. mr. shasteen. he did--i josh and go on with mr. odum a lot. mr. jenner. do you know him? mr. shasteen. yes. mr. jenner. likewise a monday? mr. shasteen. yes; i believe it was. i cut mr. odum's hair about a week and a half ago. do you know him? (addressing mr. davis.) mr. davis. no. mr. shasteen. he's the type guy you like to have come in any time. mr. jenner. do you recall telling him on that occasion that you had never been able to identify the -year old boy, that this boy had been in your shop on one occasion about months prior to that day, that is prior to december , and that would make it around the th of october? mr. shasteen. well, now, we--in other words, there were no customers in there, but the barbers and i think he was in there, as i told you, i think we were nearly positive about that, but if i told you i knew he was, i couldn't be sure about that. mr. jenner. it was on a wednesday or thursday and oswald's hair was cut on that occasion by your fellow barber, burt glover? mr. shasteen. yes; and burt is the one that says that was on a thursday. mr. jenner. you see, this is what you told mr. odum, and that glover says on the next monday or tuesday he cut the hair of the -year old boy? mr. shasteen. yes. mr. jenner. and that would be sometime in october? mr. shasteen. evidently that's the time that i don't--that wasn't the time that he made the statement at all. if he got a haircut--but, if you know burt like i know burt, i don't know that burt knows that that was the boy, but he still says it is. i think it was--i wouldn't be sure about it. mr. jenner. all i have in mind here is your report to agent odum. then you told him at that occasion, that is, when the boy got his haircut on monday or tuesday, that oswald was not in the shop but that somebody else had brought the boy to the shop. mr. shasteen. yes; somebody let him out. mr. jenner. is that something glover told you? mr. shasteen. no. when he got his haircut, when he made the statement? mr. jenner. yes. mr. shasteen. no; somebody brought him and somebody picked him up, but they didn't pull right in front of the shop. they just let him out in front in the street. mr. jenner. did you notice whether there was a woman or man or men that brought him to the shop? mr. shasteen. i know what you're fixing to ask and i could kick my own self, but i didn't pay no attention to it. mr. jenner. do you recall what type of automobile--did you notice it at all? mr. shasteen. yes; i noticed the car. now, i'll tell you the man's name that i know--i know it is in my estimation--it was in the bracket and as the old saying is, it didn't have the wings on it. this was the thing that i noticed. mr. jenner. but it wasn't the station wagon you have described? mr. shasteen. no; i think it was a ford--them there old gun-colored, it was a dark color, but it wasn't black or nothing, and that's what let him out--the kid out in front. mr. jenner. but this was the occasion the boy made the remark, "there wouldn't be no peace until all the people had the same amount of possessions and that most of our trouble now is caused because the poor people have so little and the rich so much?" mr. shasteen. right. mr. jenner. and this boy indicated peace would come when all the people had the amount of--the same amount of wealth? mr. shasteen. and had one leader--he didn't say "ruler," he said "leader." we talked about that and noticed it after he left. mr. jenner. do you recall making this statement to agent odum? mr. shasteen. yes. i have made it in my mind a dozen times since then--just thinking of a -year old boy having that kind of distilled stuff in his mind. it's not funny to me, it hurts me to see a kid with that kind of an attitude, because somebody is teaching him wrong and the thing that hurts me the most was the fact that i did have a chance to have took him and bought him a coke or took him and done something and talked to him and found out who he was and where i could have at least reasoned with him or turned him in where somebody--some of the authorities could have gotten ahold of him or anything, but it made me mad and i didn't do it. that's why we shouldn't let our tempers--you fellows are lawyers and you know that you can't let your temper get too far, but some of us people do let our tempers get away and that's one time i let mine get away. i would much rather have took him and whipped him with one of the belts or razor straps than took his money. mr. jenner. well, i think of nothing else. do you have anything in mind to ask him, mr. davis? mr. davis. no, is this person still coming, have you seen him any more--when is the last time you saw him at the shop? mr. shasteen. this boy--i never saw that boy since that day. of course, i don't remember exactly, the exact words, you know, i was kind of angry and aggravated and then you say things, but i let him know that that was no way for anybody to feel and i told him he was just off--way off base, and i said, "i don't know where you got your learning and your thinking," but i said, "boy, i disagree with you whole-heartedly." and i said--i have a bad habit of telling people they had better take inventory and see if they are right, and i told him, i said, "you had better take inventory and find out where you stand because you are just at the right age that you can get in a lot of trouble thinking like that." mr. jenner. did i ask you what your age was? mr. shasteen. no; . mr. jenner. and you are a married man and have a family? mr. shasteen. yes, sir. mr. jenner. how old is mr. glover? mr. shasteen. . mr. jenner. and your third barber? mr. shasteen. . mr. jenner. that's all, and we appreciate your coming in. mr. shasteen. well, i wish i could help you, but i know it doesn't help you a lot. mr. jenner. well, you helped us by telling us everything you know. mr. davis. we surely do appreciate your coming in. mr. jenner. if you wish to read your deposition and make any corrections if you think any are warranted, you may do so and sign it, if you wish, or you can waive all that if you wish to? mr. shasteen. well, i couldn't read what she has been writing there. mr. jenner. i take it by that that you had just as soon waive your signature and reading it over? mr. shasteen. yes. mr. jenner. and signing it? mr. shasteen. yes. mr. jenner. all right, mr. shasteen, thank you very much. i appreciate it. mr. shasteen. it's good to meet you fellows. mr. jenner. thank you. mr. davis. thank you. testimony of leonard edwin hutchison the testimony of leonard edwin hutchison was taken at a.m., on march , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. albert e. jenner, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. jenner. will you rise and be sworn, please? in the testimony which you are about to give, do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. hutchison. i do. mr. jenner. and you are leonard edwin hutchinson? mr. hutchison. it's hutchison (spelling) h-u-t-c-h-i-s-o-n, mr. jenner. mr. jenner. i-s-o-n? mr. hutchison. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and you live at scandia apartments? mr. hutchison. yes, sir. mr. jenner. apartment no. , at west sixth street, irving, tex.? mr. hutchison. yes, sir. mr. jenner. mr. hutchison, the presidential assassination commission appointed pursuant to presidential executive order no. , of november , , and senate and house of representatives joint resolution no. , of the th congress, is investigating the assassination of president john f. kennedy here in dallas, tex., on the d of november , and all of the circumstances surrounding it. have you received a letter from j. lee rankin, the general counsel for the commission? mr. hutchison. yes. mr. jenner. with which was enclosed a copy of the joint resolution and of the executive order? mr. hutchison. yes, sir; i read them several times. mr. jenner. and we are advised, from information we have, that you may have some information with respect to lee harvey oswald and his visiting in irving, tex., and possibly some information respecting the paines. and we would like to inquire of you of those circumstances. mr. hutchison. yes, sir. mr. jenner. what is your business, occupation or profession? mr. hutchison. i'm a retail grocery owner, sir. mr. jenner. and do you operate that business? mr. hutchison. yes, sir; i operate the business. mr. jenner. where is your retail grocery store? mr. hutchison. on the corner of shady grove and storey road. mr. jenner. in what town? mr. hutchison. irving, tex. mr. jenner. that's a suburb of dallas? mr. hutchison. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and would you just tell me, in general, the nature of your market or store? mr. hutchison. yes, sir; i have a complete supermarket, sir--retail grocery, meat, fresh fish, produce and all necessary food items. mr. jenner. is the paine family or mrs. paine a customer of your market? mr. hutchison. not a regular customer--just a drop in. mr. jenner. she does, from time to time, come by the store and purchase food stuffs? mr. hutchison. yes. mr. jenner. are you acquainted with mrs. paine--that is, would you recognize her if you saw her? mr. hutchison. yes, sir; i would recognize her if i saw her. mr. jenner. and you have had occasion to speak with her? mr. hutchison. yes, sir; just to speak. i try to salute everyone that comes in. mr. jenner. naturally. mr. hutchison. that's just the business. mr. jenner. do you know where her home is located in irving, tex.? mr. hutchison. yes, sir; yes, sir. mr. jenner. would you locate your market with respect to her home? mr. hutchison. yes, sir; you would turn east a block and a half--turn right, and i'm blocks due south. mr. jenner. you turn east a block and a half--and what cross street is that? mr. hutchison. that is storey, sir. mr. jenner. and you would go down storey south---- mr. hutchison. to shady grove. mr. jenner. to shady grove? mr. hutchison. yes, sir. mr. jenner. approximately how many blocks? mr. hutchison. it's blocks from fifth to shady grove. mr. jenner. all right. do you have a large parking lot area? mr. hutchison. well, i would consider it fairly large; yes. mr. jenner. mrs. paine has testified with respect to attempting to teach lee oswald to drive an automobile, and that she went to a supermarket area, which she said was approximately blocks from her home--it took her about minutes, - / minutes or minutes to drive there-- minutes, i guess. mr. hutchison. i don't believe she could teach on my driveway because my driveway is three-way parking, and i don't have a lot to where she could turn, feasibly, around. mr. jenner. i see. this was, she said, on sunday afternoons when there were no vehicles on the lot. mr. hutchison. well, i'm open on sunday so she---- mr. jenner. oh, you are? mr. hutchison. yes, sir; i'm open on sunday. so she couldn't--my parking lot is not filled every sunday, but i don't believe she would have practiced on my parking lot. it would have been noticed--i would say that. now, i work until around o'clock on every sunday. mr. jenner. every sunday? mr. hutchison. yes, sir; so it would have had to have been after then and, feasibly, i don't believe she could teach anyone to drive in my parking lot. mr. jenner. i see. were you aware that sometime in the fall of , that a lady was residing with mrs. paine who was a russian emigre? mr. hutchison. no, sir; no, sir. mr. jenner. were you aware in the fall of , that the man we now know as lee harvey oswald was visiting in the paine home on weekends? mr. hutchison. i couldn't--i couldn't say that he was visiting there. all i can say, mr. jenner, is that he came into the store and bought items like--what i remember so vividly is that it was milk and cinnamon rolls early in the morning. mr. jenner. milk and cinnamon rolls? mr. hutchison. yes, sir; in the morning--early. when you're not busy in the morning, you naturally acquaint yourself with people more than when you are real busy. i mean, when you are there and there's, say, three or four in the store and you're checking out, you notice people, you observe them a lot more than you do if you're real crowded. mr. jenner. so, this being relatively early in the morning, it was something that arrested your attention? mr. hutchison. yes, sir. mr. jenner. was he accompanied by anyone? mr. hutchison. never; never. mr. jenner. how often did this take place? mr. hutchison. i would say i saw the boy approximately four or five times at the maximum that i can remember--four or five times. and it would be a day or two or three between. it was always in the morning. mr. jenner. always? mr. hutchison. i open at o'clock in the morning, and i would say it was between : and : because it was--it just got to be a routine. mr. jenner. does your memory serve you sufficiently as to whether these purchases or visits included midweek days? that is, let's take monday through thursday. would there be any on those days? mr. hutchison. no, sir; i couldn't say. i couldn't pinpoint the day. i know that--that it was between--there would be a day or two between, or maybe three between. mr. jenner. would your memory serve you as to whether--let's take one day--there was any degree of regularity of this person's visits to your market on monday? mr. hutchison. no; no--i couldn't pinpoint monday. no, sir. mr. jenner. you are open on sunday, you say. do you recall this gentleman you have in mind ever having visited and made purchases on sunday morning? mr. hutchison. no; no, sir. we do very, very little business up until o'clock. they'd just be occasionally a drop-in for a, say, a package of cigarettes or something like that. mr. jenner. i see. mr. hutchison. sunday morning is very quiet, sir. i think i'd have recognized him on sunday. mr. jenner. all right. we can eliminate sunday? mr. hutchison. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and what about saturday? mr. hutchison. i'm not there very often on saturday morning because i work saturday nights. so, i couldn't--i couldn't pinpoint saturday morning. mr. jenner. and the odds are, then--let's see, we've eliminated sunday morning--and the likelihood is that you did not see him on saturday? mr. hutchison. no, sir. mr. jenner. i see. so, it would be---- mr. hutchison. during the week. mr. jenner. monday through friday? mr. hutchison. yes, sir. mr. jenner. when did these visits commence, if you recall? mr. hutchison. i would say--uh--i came back from out of the country trip in september; so it would have had to have started late september. mr. jenner. and what is your recollection as to their persistence up to and including november , ? mr. hutchison. well, it would have been just an occasional drop-in. mr. jenner. during that period? mr. hutchison. yes, sir; during that period. yes, sir. mr. jenner. did you see this man at any time subsequent to november , ? mr. hutchison. after? mr. jenner. uh-huh. mr. hutchison. no, sir. no, sir. i sure didn't. mr. jenner. i think i asked you whether he was accompanied by anyone at anytime and you said, "no." mr. hutchison. only one time. mr. jenner. one time? mr. hutchison. one time. yes. there was a wednesday evening, he and his wife and an elderly lady were shopping in midcounters and i was stocking around a corner and i heard this blurt--uh--statement in foreign tongue. and, naturally, that would arouse your curiosity to hear somebody speaking--now, i know spanish, and i recognize german and i recognize french--and it wasn't any of those. so, i immediately came around the counter and he was taking something away from his--this woman he was with and putting it back on the shelf and talking to her in this language. mr. jenner. what was your impression as to what he was attempting to convey to her? mr. hutchison. that he didn't want her to have it--that he took it away from her. he still had it--he still had it in her hand--i mean, she had it in her hand and he took it away from her and put it back on the shelf. mr. jenner. now, this was in the afternoon? mr. hutchison. that was late in the evening, sir, between--between, i would say, between : and : . because i close at : and i recognize that it was earlier. they were buying then what you would say a complete bill of groceries. they had several items in the basket. mr. jenner. i see. you have the--i don't do much supermarket shopping--but it's a cart with wheels? mr. hutchison. yes, sir; a cart with wheels. mr. jenner. self-service? mr. hutchison. self-service. yes, sir. all my store is self-service, meat included; yes, sir. mr. jenner. all right. you said, "this man and his wife." what led you to say that this lady or woman was his wife? mr. hutchison. well, uh--later, when her picture came on television, i--uh--i recognized her. mr. jenner. now, when you use the pronoun "her," you're now referring to whom? mr. hutchison. to his wife. mr. jenner. marina oswald? mr. hutchison. yes. marina oswald. yes. mr. jenner. all right. would you describe, as best you can, your present recollection of what this man looked like? mr. hutchison. yes. he was--uh--around foot or - / ; he had a very, i would say--impressive look about him. it was always, to me, uh--to her--at that time it was a glare. he was glaring at her. and, of course, when anyone glares, their facial expressions tighten up and you just naturally observe someone like that. and it looked like--well, you wouldn't say a fit of anger, but a disgust or something out of the ordinary. mr. jenner. irritation? mr. hutchison. yes; irritation would be the word. yes. it wasn't, "you don't need that," or--of course, i couldn't understand russian. i heard russian of course when i was in the service in seattle, but i didn't recognize the language. but he was telling her and it was in irritation--and he put it back on the shelf. mr. jenner. by the way, i might do this at the moment--what is your age? mr. hutchison. i'm . mr. jenner. and are you a native of the dallas area? mr. hutchison. yes, sir; i was raised right down here at waxahachie, sir. mr. jenner. and your formal education was what--elementary school, high school? mr. hutchison. high school; high school education, sir. mr. jenner. then, you spent some time in the service, i gather? mr. hutchison. yes, sir. mr. jenner. i take it, you make a practice of trying to obtain a picture in your mind of all your customers? mr. hutchison. of every customer; yes, sir. mr. jenner. and to remember them? mr. hutchison. i love people and i love to speak to them and i address everyone, regardless of creed, color, or anything. i always speak to them. mr. jenner. well, that's a mark of a good salesman--apart from your normal disposition. mr. hutchison. yes, sir; i like people. that's the thing. i like people. mr. jenner. do you recall how this man was attired on that occasion? mr. hutchison. he was in slacks with just--uh--had a little jacket--uh--i would say just a common, ordinary jacket. mr. jenner. there's my raincoat hanging there [indicating]. was it about that weight or---- mr. hutchison. a little heavier; a little heavier jacket. it was---- mr. jenner. was it that type of material--twill? or was it wool or what was it? mr. hutchison. twill. mr. jenner. twill? mr. hutchison. yes, sir; it was twill. mr. jenner. short jacket? mr. hutchison. short jacket; yes, sir. short jacket. mr. jenner. zippered? mr. hutchison. zipper--yes, sir. because it was open. i remember that. he wore it several times. he had it on--uh--when he came in the morning. always an open shirt, always had a--he never wore a tie. i observed that, naturally. mr. jenner. i see. describe the lady. mr. hutchison. well, she had on, i would say, a print dress and she had on a coat. she had on a--not a heavy coat but a---- mr. jenner. how tall was she? mr. hutchison. i would say she was around foot - / or . mr. jenner. do you recall the color of her hair? mr. hutchison. no, sir; i couldn't. she had---- mr. jenner. a babushka? mr. hutchison. no; a scarf. she had a scarf on her head. she had a white scarf. mr. jenner. a white scarf? mr. hutchison. yes, sir. mr. jenner. do you know what i mean when i say "babushka"? it's a scarf that the ladies have over their head and they tie it under their chin. mr. hutchison. yes, sir; yes, sir. mr. jenner. is that the way she wore the scarf? mr. hutchison. yes, sir. mr. jenner. do you recall the shade or color of his hair? mr. hutchison. i would say that it was a kind of dark brown. mr. jenner. and what about its plenitude--did he have plenty of hair or---- mr. hutchison. yes, sir. it was--it was combed back each time. he never wore a hat. his hair was always, i would call it--in mine and your day--roached. i guess--roached back, just peeled completely back on both sides. mr. jenner. i see. and as best you are able to fix it, when was this with respect to month and what part of the month--the fore part, latter part, middle part? mr. hutchison. well, that must have been the latter part of, i would say, the last days of october. mr. jenner. uh-huh. and was it a midweek? mr. hutchison. yes, sir; yes, sir. it was in midweek, because i only work monday, wednesday, and saturday nights. so, it would have had to have been a wednesday night. mr. jenner. wednesday night? mr. hutchison. yes, sir. mr. jenner. could it be that this visit was sometime between the th of october and the th of october? mr. hutchison. i don't believe so. i believe it was later than that, sir. i believe, if i were to pinpoint it, i would say it was between the th of october and november . mr. jenner. all right. now, you said there was, to your recollection, an older lady with them? mr. hutchison. yes, sir. mr. jenner. with these people? what would you judge her age to be? mr. hutchison. i would say she was somewhere between and . mr. jenner. would you describe her, please? mr. hutchison. well, sir, she had on a small li'l ole hat and--uh--a fur coat. she had on a fur cont. and--uh--she said nothing. she just walks around. mr. jenner. what color was her hair? mr. hutchison. i couldn't say, sir; because she had this hat on. it was just the language--it was the tone and the language that he was speaking that attracted me. mr. jenner. and he was speaking in russian? mr. hutchison. yes. well, it was---- mr. jenner. well, at least, in a foreign language that you couldn't understand? mr. hutchison. yes; that's right. mr. jenner. did the young lady say anything? mr. hutchison. nothing. she said nothing. mr. jenner. now--she was a young lady? mr. hutchison. yes, sir. mr. jenner. what would you judge her age to be? mr. hutchison. i would say between and . mr. jenner. and his age? mr. hutchison. well, i'd say he looked--he at that time looked to be about or . mr. jenner. he looked younger than she? mr. hutchison. yes. mr. jenner. do you recall whether the elderly lady did or did not wear spectacles--or glasses? mr. hutchison. she had glasses on. yes, sir. mr. jenner. were they a horn-rimmed type that i have and you have on? mr. hutchison. yes, sir; yes, sir. mr. jenner. can you recollect--is this the only occasion on which you saw him---- mr. hutchison. with anyone? mr. jenner. with anyone at all? mr. hutchison. yes, sir; the rest of the time, it was by himself. mr. jenner. during the course of their visiting that day, did you hear the elderly lady say anything? mr. hutchison. no, sir. mr. jenner. and i think you said you did not hear the young lady say anything? mr. hutchison. no, sir; she said nothing. mr. jenner. and they were purchasing what you would call a--did you say a "full stock of groceries"? mr. hutchison. yes, sir; yes, sir. mr. jenner. would you describe for the record what you mean by a full stock of groceries? mr. hutchison. well, a full stock of groceries is when they buy soap, soap powder, sugar, coffee, a few canned goods, milk, bread--say, a total of $ to $ worth of groceries is considered a bill of groceries. mr. jenner. yes; and you recall that this occasion is what you have now described as a full stock of groceries? mr. hutchison. yes, sir; a full stock bill of groceries. mr. jenner. not only edibles, but things to apply in and about the home? mr. hutchison. about the house--the home; yes, sir. mr. jenner. and they were in your store, i take it then, for---- mr. hutchison. several minutes. mr. jenner. several minutes? mr. hutchison. yes, sir. how far between then, i don't know; but from then on, i would say minutes before they checked out. mr. jenner. did he pay for these goods? mr. hutchison. yes, sir; yes, sir. mr. jenner. how? with cash? mr. hutchison. cash. yes, sir. there was only one other time when he tried to cash a check. mr. jenner. and i'll get to that in a minute--but on this particular occasion, it was cash. mr. hutchison. yes, sir. it was always cash. yes, sir. he always paid cash. mr. jenner. i am interested, mr. hutchison, in the older lady--the older of the two ladies. mr. hutchison. yes, sir. mr. jenner. could you give me any more--draw on your imagination and see if---- mr. hutchison. well, she was on the heavy side; i would say weight or pounds, and short and dumpy. mr. jenner. how tall was she with respect to the gentleman and the young lady? mr. hutchison. well, she was--she was, of course, not as tall as the gentleman and maybe about the same height as the lady. mr. jenner. the young lady? mr. hutchison. yes, sir; the young lady. mr. jenner. what was your judgment as to the young lady's height? mr. hutchison. i would say feet - / or . mr. jenner. relatively short? mr. hutchison. yes, sir; relatively short--yes, sir. mr. jenner. and the elderly lady was approximately that height as well? mr. hutchison. yes, sir; but dumpy. mr. jenner. heavier set? mr. hutchison. heavier set; yes. mr. jenner. what would you say was the weight of the younger lady? mr. hutchison. i would say to . mr. jenner. slightly built, then? mr. hutchison. yes, sir. mr. jenner. did i ask you this--was that a busy period of time, as you recall? mr. hutchison. no; no, no. it wasn't too busy. mr. jenner. and you were afforded plenty of opportunity, were you, to observe these people? mr. hutchison. yes; yes. when i went around this aisle to hear this foreign language, i looked at them and i could see them as plain as i'm seeing you. i didn't go right down and just stare and look at them--but my aisle is only feet long and they were in the middle of the aisle. so when i went around the aisle, i was within feet of them. mr. jenner. now, had the gentleman you're now describing been in--was one of the occasions that he'd been in in the morning? mr. hutchison. yes, sir; before. mr. jenner. prior to this event? mr. hutchison. yes, sir; yes, sir. mr. jenner. and on these prior occasions when he was alone, did he ever use a language which was other than english? mr. hutchison. mr. jenner, he never said a word. he never spoke. i'd always speak when he came in and always thank him when he went out. and whatever the purchase was, you addressed the amount--like it was a $ . , a $ . , a $ . --he'd just put the money out or get the change and walk right out the door. he never said a word. mr. jenner. he didn't say hello, goodby, how are you, nice morning, it's raining--nothing at all? mr. hutchison. no, sir; nothing. he never said a word. mr. jenner. he came in, employing the self-service, picked up--let's see, cinnamon rolls--you said? mr. hutchison. and milk. mr. jenner. and milk. and you, recognizing the cost of the sales price of these items, he'd walk up to the counter, you would state _x_ dollars or cents---- mr. hutchison. yes, sir. mr. jenner. whatever the purchase was, he would hand you the change in cash---- mr. hutchison. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and you would give him his change if it wasn't the exact amount that he'd handed you. and he'd walk out without saying a word? mr. hutchison. he never said a word. that was odd. i began to notice that after that happened a couple or three times. most anyone will say, "thank you," or "good morning," or something; but he never said a word. this is a friendly store, mr. jenner. it's not a cold store--like a chainstore or anything like that. we don't change help and it's just a--well, it's a neighborhood supermarket, is what it is. mr. jenner. yes; i should bring this out; this is an independent store, it's not a chainstore? mr. hutchison. yes, sir; it's independent--not a chainstore. mr. jenner. and you're both the owner and the manager? mr. hutchison. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and it's a neighborly neighborhood store? mr. hutchison. yes, sir. mr. jenner. now, you say there was an occasion when he attempted to cash a check? mr. hutchison. yes, sir. mr. jenner. now, would you first fix the date--i assume you can't recall the exact date--but fix the month and the time of the month. mr. hutchison. it would be the first week in november. to the best of my recollection, it was after this incident of the buying of the bill of groceries. mr. jenner. all right. and what time of day was that? mr. hutchison. it was in the afternoon, sir, between and o'clock--because i'm in the cage. i have a check-cashing cage, and on busy days i go into the cage and, naturally, i cash percent of the checks--especially the big checks. mr. jenner. i see. now, i think you've told me that you are in your store on mondays, wednesdays, and fridays? mr. hutchison. nights. mr. jenner. nights? mr. hutchison. yes, sir. mr. jenner. but you are there during the day every day, also? mr. hutchison. yes, sir; yes, sir. i run my store. yes, sir. mr. jenner. so, you are in your store in the neighborhood of the o'clock period every day? mr. hutchison. every day; yes, sir. mr. jenner. all right. now what day of the week was this? mr. hutchison. friday. mr. jenner. friday? mr. hutchison. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and it was around or : ? mr. hutchison. between and o'clock, sir. mr. jenner. now, using your own words, describe the incident, commencing giving the background. mr. hutchison. well, they line up to cash their checks. mr. jenner. and you were in the cage? mr. hutchison. yes, sir; i was in the cage. mr. jenner. and there were people lined up to cash checks? mr. hutchison. yes, sir; sometimes to line up--because we have ling electric, we have temco, and we have chance vought. we also have general motors people who live in irving. and friday is a big check-cashing day. mr. jenner. uh, huh. mr. hutchison. and i always step into the cage to cash checks and, naturally, i know most people who come in. and this was a two-party check. mr. jenner. what do you mean by that? mr. hutchison. a two-party check means that it was not a payroll check, but a personal check given to him. mr. jenner. all right. mr. hutchison. and, as best as i can remember, it was $ --which is strictly against our rules to cash. we don't cash any two-party checks over $ . mr. jenner. i see. mr. hutchison. and so i just merely told him, "i'm sorry; i can't cash this check." mr. jenner. excuse me. if i call that a personal check--is that an apt description? you call it a "two-party" check, meaning---- mr. hutchison. yes, sir. mr. jenner. it's drawn by an individual and payable to an individual? mr. hutchison. right. that's right. an individual check payable to an individual. mr. jenner. as distinguished from a payroll check? mr. hutchison. yes; as distinguished from a payroll check. mr. jenner. and your practice is to limit your risk on that type of check to $ ? mr. hutchison. $ ; yes, sir. mr. jenner. and your recollection is that that check was in the amount of $ ? mr. hutchison. $ ; yes, sir. mr. jenner. all right. and he finally reached the wicket, or---- mr. hutchison. yes, sir; the cage. mr. jenner. he came to the head of the line, eventually? mr. hutchison. yes, sir. mr. jenner. then tell me what happened, as best you can recall. mr. hutchison. well, he put the check up there and, of course, that's what everyone does. they put it up there and you look at the check and you observe the check and you either make up your mind whether you're going to cash it or not. but, of course, like i say, with the rule that i have, there never was any doubt in my mind what i was going to do with it. i just handed it back to him. i said, "i'm sorry. this is a two-party check, and we don't cash this amount in a two party check. mr. jenner. did he say anything about that? mr. hutchison. not a word. not a word. he just looked at me and picked up the check and got out of line and walked on out. mr. jenner. did he have any expression on his face that arrested your attention? mr. hutchison. no, sir. mr. jenner. do you think he understood what you meant by a "two-party" check? mr. hutchison. why, i'm sure he must have because i specifically said to him, "this is a two-party check and our rules and regulations are that we don't cash this large a check--two-party check." mr. jenner. he didn't seem irritated? mr. hutchison. no, sir. mr. jenner. and he accepted your explanation? mr. hutchison. yes, sir. mr. jenner. do you recall whether or not--let's see, you were in the cage, but despite that, do you have any recollection as to whether he purchased anything on that trip? mr. hutchison. i couldn't say, because the cage is high enough that you have to stand up to see across the store. it's not caged completely in but there's a glass window---- mr. jenner. in any event, you didn't serve him anything. mr. hutchison. no, sir. sure didn't. mr. jenner. do you recall the payee of the check? mr. hutchison. no, sir; no, sir. i sure don't. it just didn't enter my mind, mr. jenner, after it was that amount. i wouldn't care who it was, i wouldn't have cashed it because, like i say, i have my rules and regulations and if i violate them, my help can violate them, too--so, i just don't do it. mr. jenner. do you recall anything about the check--the form of the check--other than it was a two-party check? mr. hutchison. no, sir; i couldn't. i couldn't tell you where it was given and who wrote the check. all i looked at was--it was the amount. mr. jenner. do you have any recollection--do you know what a counter check is? mr. hutchison. yes, sir; i know what a counter check is. it was a counter check. it wasn't a printed--it wasn't a personalized check. it was a printed check. mr. jenner. i'm going to hand you one of my own personal checks [handing to witness.] now, that's what you call a printed personalized check? mr. hutchison. yes, sir. that's a printed personalized check. mr. jenner. and it was not that form? mr. hutchison. no, sir. this was just a counter check. they all have it right here [indicating on check]--it's in the form of a draft on the dallas market here. you have the name of your bank in print--like this bank is printed in here. [indicating on check.] mr. jenner. yes. but on a counter check, the bank is not imprinted? mr. hutchison. no, sir; no, sir. it just has your date and "pay to the order of," and your signature here and, of course, they all have your micronized letters--they all have that now because each bank puts them out. mr. jenner. yes; but they do not appear on counter checks. mr. hutchison. no, sir. mr. jenner. under the circumstances you have explained, now you did not make a mental note and you do not now have a recollection of the person to whom this counter check was payable? mr. hutchison. no, sir; no, sir. i sure don't, mr. jenner. mr. jenner. on these mornings when he came in, these were occasions when you were not too busy? mr. hutchison. that's right. mr. jenner. do you have any recollection at all--and if so, state the extent of it--as to whether he arrived at your place of business in some vehicle--automobile? mr. hutchison. always walking. mr. jenner. always walking? mr. hutchison. always walking. yes, sir. he was always walking. because, once or twice, i'd be sweeping the sidewalks--i sweep the sidewalk every morning--and he'd be coming down the storey side. mr. jenner. all right. i was about to get to that. he was coming down the storey side--let's see if i can put it in my vernacular a little: from what direction was he coming, normally, when you saw him? mr. hutchison. from north to south. mr. jenner. he was moving from the north to the south? mr. hutchison. yes, sir. mr. jenner. which would be coming from the direction of the paine home? mr. hutchison. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and did you notice the direction in which he went when he departed your store? mr. hutchison. yes, sir; he just went right around the corner. see, from my door there's only about feet from the entrance of the door to the corner of the building. my checking stand is on the, what you would say, the west side of the building. he'd go out the door and just go right around the corner. mr. jenner. and in what direction would he be moving then, after he turned the corner? mr. hutchison. north. mr. jenner. and then what street would he be on? mr. hutchison. that would be storey, sir. mr. jenner. so, he was retracing his steps? mr. hutchison. yes, sir; retracing his steps. mr. jenner. now, on the occasion when these three people were in your store on that evening, you're not able now to fix that occasion any more definitely as to point of time than sometime between the st and the--did you say the th of november? mr. hutchison. fifteenth of october, sir; to the st of--uh---- mr. jenner. november? mr. hutchison. november. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and it was not in the month of november? mr. hutchison. no, sir; no, sir. mr. jenner. do you have a recollection of having been interviewed by a representative of the fbi---- mr. hutchison. yes, sir; yes, sir. mr. jenner. on this occasion? mr. hutchison. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and he questioned you about the incident of the evening---- mr. hutchison. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and substantially the things that i am examining you about? mr. hutchison. yes, sir; yes, sir. mr. jenner. and did you give him, then, your very best recollection of what you recalled at that time? mr. hutchison. yes, sir; i sure did, sir. mr. jenner. all right. and this interview was shortly after the assassination? mr. hutchison. yes, sir. mr. jenner. the d of december, ? mr. hutchison. yes, sir; it was. mr. jenner. how much milk did he buy on these morning occasions? mr. hutchison. a gallon. mr. jenner. a whole gallon? mr. hutchison. a whole gallon of milk; yes, sir. mr. jenner. now, the internal revenue service might be interested in this: tell me again, and with prices to the extent you can recall, what his normal purchase was on the mornings that he came in. mr. hutchison. well, the milk sells for a gallon and the cinnamon rolls are . so, you see, that would be $ . . mr. jenner. did he ever buy any bread? mr. hutchison. no, sir; no, sir. mr. jenner. did you ever see him with any bills of large denomination? mr. hutchison. no, sir. mr. jenner. did you ever see him with a--well, i don't know; maybe "large denomination," doesn't help us very much on these morning occasions, did he ever hand you a $ or a $ bill? mr. hutchison. no, sir; it was always a dollar and some change. mr. jenner. all right. mr. hutchison. either a dollar and a half or a dollar and a quarter--or sometimes two dimes. he had almost the correct change. mr. jenner. always? mr. hutchison. he was within a few cents-- or cents of his purchase. mr. jenner. however, on the evening occasion, when they bought--what expression did we use? mr. hutchison. full line of groceries? mr. jenner. did he have bills on that occasion? mr. hutchison. sir, i didn't check him. mr. jenner. you didn't check him? mr. hutchison. i didn't check him; no, sir. mr. jenner. so, you don't know? mr. hutchison. i don't know, sir. i sure don't. mr. jenner. but your recollection is that purchase would run somewhere between $ and $ ? mr. hutchison. yes, sir; $ and $ . mr. jenner. from that, you would conclude that he must have had some bills larger than a dollar? mr. hutchison. yes, sir; he would have had to have larger bills that day. mr. jenner. or else he would have had to have a number of dollar bills. mr. hutchison. yes, sir. mr. jenner. i think i failed to ask you what you thought his weight was. mr. hutchison. i would say his weight was somewhere in the neighborhood of to . mr. jenner. what is your recollection as to his dress in the sense of neatness, cleanliness? mr. hutchison. well, i wouldn't say he was dirty, but he was shabbily dressed. mr. jenner. uh, huh. mr. hutchison. he was shabbily dressed--cheap slacks, and like i said, the jacket was cheap, and his shirts were always open, he never had a tie, he wasn't what you would call neatly dressed. he always looked--well, like just a common worker. mr. jenner. i gather from all this that it was your impression that he was a person of little means? mr. hutchison. yes. mr. jenner. what about his neatness? was he always shaven? mr. hutchison. yes, sir; he was always shaven. mr. jenner. his hair neatly combed? mr. hutchison. hair cut and neatly combed; yes, sir. mr. jenner. and you didn't notice anything about, did you, that he always needed a haircut or---- mr. hutchison. no; i would say that he was pretty well---- mr. jenner. in that respect, you would call him normal? mr. hutchison. normal; yes, sir. mr. jenner. all right. mr. hutchison. because, you know, i'd notice if a person doesn't have a haircut. naturally, i would on account of my help and everything like that. i have to observe those things. mr. jenner. yes. are you able to describe mrs. paine to me? mr. hutchison. well, she's an ordinary person--i mean---- mr. jenner. physical characteristics, i mean, first. mr. hutchison. yes, sir. well, she's about foot and i'd say her weight was around and --i'd say between and . uh--she's not a beautiful woman, but she's attractive. mr. jenner. what about her age? mr. hutchison. oh, i'd say--uh--between and years of age. mr. jenner. are you acquainted with mr. paine? mr. hutchison. no, sir. mr. jenner. in the first place, do you know that there is a mr. paine? mr. hutchison. no, sir; i sure don't. mr. jenner. do you know whether the lady you have in mind does or does not have children and if so---- mr. hutchison. no, sir. mr. jenner. whenever she was in your store did she have children with her? mr. hutchison. no, sir; she was alone. mr. jenner. always alone. when was the last time you saw this person that you have in mind in your store? mr. hutchison. oh, i'd say in january---- mr. jenner. of this year? mr. hutchison. of this year. yes, sir. she's been in since---- mr. jenner. she may well have been in on other occasions---- mr. hutchison. oh, yes; yes. mr. jenner. but the last time you recall her was in january? mr. hutchison. january. yes, sir. mr. jenner. well, you were never able to strike up any conversation with this man, so---- mr. hutchison. no, sir; i couldn't have told you he lived with her, or anything. mr. jenner. all you know is that he was a person that came from that direction? mr. hutchison. he came from the north and came in the store--yes, sir. mr. jenner. and you do recall distinctly that, from the occasion of the assassination, you have never seen this man in your store? mr. hutchison. no, sir; no, sir; i've never seen him. mr. jenner. and what arrested your attention in this regard was that you saw a photograph of marina oswald published in one of the dallas papers? mr. hutchison. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and seeing that photograph, you noticed a resemblance between the lady you had seen in your store the evening you've described---- mr. hutchison. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and that particular photograph? mr. hutchison. yes, sir; that's the only time i ever saw her. mr. jenner. did you see, either published in the newspapers or published in magazines somewhere or other, or on television, any pictures of lee harvey oswald? mr. hutchison. i saw them on television; yes, sir. mr. jenner. and tell us when you saw the television pictures that you now have in mind. mr. hutchison. i saw the television program on sunday afternoon after he was shot here. mr. jenner. that's the th of november ? mr. hutchison. yes, sir; that's the first time i recognized that he had been in my store. mr. jenner. you recognized the man you saw on the television sunday afternoon? mr. hutchison. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and the man who had come in your store of a morning? mr. hutchison. yes, sir; i remarked to my wife the minute i saw it. i was working when he was shot in the morning. i didn't see the actual--i didn't see the--but they rerun it that sunday. mr. jenner. you saw the rerun that sunday afternoon? mr. hutchison. yes, sir. i told my wife then, i said, "that fellow has traded--"--and i related to her what i told you, just casually. mr. jenner. had you seen the newspaper picture of the lady, marina oswald, prior to the time you saw the television rerun on sunday afternoon? mr. hutchison. no, sir; that was later. mr. jenner. all right, mr. hutchison, is there anything that occurs to you now that i haven't brought out that you think might be helpful to the commission in this important work of the commission? mr. hutchison. no, sir; i don't. mr. jenner. that you know? any facts? mr. hutchison. i'd be happy to tell you because---- mr. jenner. i'm sure you would. mr. hutchison. i'm certainly a person who wants to help in every way--in any way. mr. jenner. all right. now, i have no further questions. it's your privilege, mr. hutchison, to read over your deposition as soon as it is transcribed if you desire to do so. and this nice young lady will have this transcribed so it may be read, oh, let us say, tuesday of next week. and if you wish to do so, you may come in and read it, and if you think there is anything in the deposition---- mr. hutchison. no, sir. mr. jenner. that is incorrectly reported, why we'd like to have you advise us of that. or you may waive all this procedure as you see fit. mr. hutchison. i can waive it right now, mr. jenner. i have no---- mr. jenner. then, you would like to waive it? mr. hutchison. yes, sir, yes, sir; i'd be glad to, sir. mr. jenner. i think i might add--when you were interviewed on the d of december---- mr. hutchison. yes, sir. mr. jenner. which is some months ago, to the best of your recollection did you report to the fbi agent, who was mr. berry--do you recall that name? mr. hutchison. yes, sir; mr. berry was the man that came out--yes, sir. mr. jenner. it was then your recollection that the time that oswald--the man you recognized as oswald--tendered the check for cashing was november --that is, you used the expression, "three weeks ago?" mr. hutchison. yes, sir; that would pinpoint it closer. mr. jenner. does that refresh your recollection now---- mr. hutchison. yes, sir. mr. jenner. as to the time it was? mr. hutchison. yes, sir; it does. mr. jenner. do you recall that on that occasion, that interview, that you told mr. berry that the occasion when the elderly lady, the young lady, and oswald were in your store--that's an evening? mr. hutchison. yes, sir. mr. jenner. you recall the incident? mr. hutchison. yes, sir. mr. jenner. that it was on wednesday evening november , , rather than in october--between the th and the st of november, as you've testified today? mr. hutchison. [pausing before reply.] mr. jenner, the best--it was before the check cashing. mr. jenner. incident? mr. hutchison. yes, sir; it was before that. yes, sir; because he tried to cash the check after he'd bought the bill of groceries. mr. jenner. yes; you fixed the time of day as the same. mr. hutchison. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and according to the report i have--and all i have is the report---- mr. hutchison. yes, sir. mr. jenner. you fixed the date as november . but, now, that you've been able to reflect further about it. this check-cashing incident as related to the time when the three of them were in---- mr. hutchison. yes, sir; was before. mr. jenner. was before rather than after? mr. hutchison. yes, sir. yes, sir. mr. jenner. i think that's all--no--one other thing i'd like to say to you. we did have a little bit of conversation before we started your deposition and we've been off the record once or twice--is there anything that i discussed with you while we were off the record or before your testimony began that you think is pertinent that i have failed to bring out? mr. hutchison. no, sir. mr. jenner. is there anything that occurred during that time that you told me that you think is inconsistent with any of the testimony you have given--and which i failed to bring out? mr. hutchison. no, sir; i think it's very full on everything i know. mr. jenner. all right. thank you very much. we're sorry to have inconvenienced you but we very much appreciate your help. mr. hutchison. that's all right--it's perfectly all right. that's just something that everybody should do if they're good americans. mr. jenner. thank you. testimony of frank pizzo the testimony of frank pizzo was taken at : p.m., on march , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. albert e. jenner, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. robert t. davis, assistant attorney general of texas, was present. mr. jenner. mr. pizzo, would you stand up and be sworn? mr. pizzo. all right. mr. jenner. do you solemnly swear that in the testimony you are about to give, you will tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth? mr. pizzo. i do. mr. jenner. mr. pizzo, i am albert e. jenner, jr., a member of the legal staff of the president's commission. you received a letter from mr. rankin, the general counsel, or did you? mr. pizzo. no, i didn't. mr. jenner. all right. then, i'll tell you about it. the commission to investigate the assassination of president kennedy was appointed by president johnson under executive order , which in turn was pursuant to senate joint resolution no. of the congress, and the commission was authorized and appointed for the purpose of investigating the assassination of the late president, john f. kennedy, on the d of november, , and to report all the facts that are pertinent to that tragic event that we can discover. we are particularly interested in persons who did or might have had some contact with lee harvey oswald and marina oswald, and it is our understanding that you may have some information in that area and in the course of conducting your business back in the fall of , and pursuant to my telephone call to you this morning, you have kindly come down here, voluntarily, have you? mr. pizzo. i have. mr. jenner. you have heretofore been interviewed by the fbi, haven't you? mr. pizzo. yes. mr. jenner. and, i know you are busy as it is particularly busy at the end of the month in your business, and i'll see if i can't expedite this. mr. jenner. are you a native of dallas? mr. pizzo. no; i am a native of providence, r.i. mr. jenner. how long have you resided in dallas? mr. pizzo. around may in . mr. jenner. take me back, say, to --about yourself, or start with ; what were you doing then? mr. pizzo. well, in , i was in the automobile business in providence, r.i., with my own company. mr. jenner. automobile sales business? mr. pizzo. yes, used cars--auto village, inc., in providence, r.i. we came here in, let's see, february of --we came to lufkin. mr. jenner. when you say "we," you mean you, your wife, and your family? mr. pizzo. my wife and my child, a -year-old boy. we came to lufkin, tex. she is a native of lufkin, tex. mr. jenner. she is a native of lufkin, tex.? mr. pizzo. yes, and we came down here to open up a business, which we did. we opened a business in lufkin--she opened a beauty shop and i opened a used-car lot, and we were there a couple or months and i came to dallas to buy cars and i went to mcallister lincoln-mercury, who is now my boss, and owns hamilton chrysler-plymouth, and while i was there trying to buy cars, i wound up coming to work for him. mr. jenner. and the mcallister agency is located in downtown dallas? mr. pizzo. it is downtown lincoln-mercury--it used to be mcallister lincoln-mercury. mr. jenner. and now it is called downtown lincoln-mercury? mr. pizzo. that's correct--downtown lincoln-mercury. mr. jenner. has that been a recent change in name? mr. pizzo. yes, it has. mr. jenner. i'm just curious, because i tried to find it in the phone book this morning and i couldn't find downtown lincoln-mercury. mr. pizzo. that's right, it has been--let's see, we changed the name--the name was changed just before the assassination. you see, it's a factory franchise dealership and they changed it to downtown lincoln-mercury. mr. jenner. i was looking in a may , directory. mr. pizzo. that's it. mr. jenner. that would be mcallister lincoln-mercury at that time? mr. pizzo. when i went to work at that time--yes. now, i stayed on when mr. mcallister went on to hamilton chrysler-plymouth and i stayed on as assistant manager at downtown lincoln-mercury. we were working actually for the factory, because they were running the store--they had no president. mr. jenner. in which of the two agencies do you now work as of today? mr. pizzo. hamilton chrysler-plymouth. mr. jenner. and you are what position there? mr. pizzo. sales manager. mr. jenner. and you were what position--what position did you have with mcallister? mr. pizzo. you mean at downtown lincoln-mercury or mcallister? mr. jenner. yes. mr. pizzo. assistant manager. mr. jenner. you were assistant manager? mr. pizzo. yes. mr. jenner. when did that work commence--when did you start to work with mcallister? mr. pizzo. around the th or th of may. mr. jenner. of ? mr. pizzo. that's right. mr. jenner. did you have an employee under your supervision and direction at that time by the name of bogard? mr. pizzo. yes, i did. mr. jenner. what is his full name? mr. pizzo. albert g. bogard. mr. jenner. albert g. bogard? mr. pizzo. albert g. bogard, that's correct. mr. jenner. and has he also worked over at the hamilton agency? mr. pizzo. no, sir; he came from ed maher ford. mr. jenner. that's m-a-h-e-r (spelling)? mr. pizzo. yes--two words. when he applied for the job, he was working at maher's. mr. jenner. some of these salesmen are inclined to shift about, i guess? mr. pizzo. yes--if they like the looks of a car this year--it might look a little better on this make of car, and you know, to them, it is all money, and they are going to move around, but a real good person will stay. he will stay in one place and build up a clientele. mr. jenner. with repeat sales? mr. pizzo. that's right. these boys--most of them live on floor traffic. mr. jenner. they wait for people to come in? mr. pizzo. yes; they are not real working automobile salesmen. mr. jenner. in other words, i'll summarize--you are a native-born american and a native of rhode island, providence? mr. pizzo. yes, sir; and i served in the u.s. marine corps in world war ii. mr. jenner. you did? mr. pizzo. yes, sir. mr. jenner. and you were in the used car business in providence and you and your wife in due course came here to dallas and she is a native of texas, as you recited? mr. pizzo. yes. mr. jenner. and you were in the used car business there, and what was that town again? mr. pizzo. lufkin. mr. jenner. could you spell it? mr. pizzo. l-u-f-k-i-n (spelling). mr. jenner. and then you became associated with downtown lincoln-mercury? mr. pizzo. yes. mr. jenner. in may of ? was there an incident that occurred sometime in , but prior to november , , involving somebody who might have been lee harvey oswald? mr. pizzo. yes; there was an incident. mr. jenner. would you tell us about the incident, first, and then we will become oriented? mr. pizzo. all right--of course, at the time nothing was thought of the incident because it was just a natural sales setup we had. our salesmen, when they can't sell a customer a car, they run to the manager and tell him, they'll say, "he's going to leave." mr. jenner. and that manager in this instance was you? mr. pizzo. it was me. mr. jenner. all right. mr. pizzo. and, i asked to see the man--no, i didn't ask to see him personally--no, i didn't. mr. jenner. who was the salesman? mr. pizzo. albert g. bogard. mr. jenner. the man we have identified here? mr. pizzo. that's right, sir. he brought the man to me--it was quite late in the evening--it wasn't evening, because it was dark. mr. jenner. do you remember what day of the week it was? mr. pizzo. i really don't--really don't. mr. jenner. it was a weekday? mr. pizzo. it was a weekday. mr. jenner. you are open on sunday? mr. pizzo. no; we are not open on sunday. mr. jenner. are you open on saturday? mr. pizzo. yes. mr. jenner. it could have been any day in the week? mr. pizzo. it could have been--it seems to me like it was the middle of the week, towards the weekend, but i couldn't swear to that. mr. jenner. what month was it? mr. pizzo. it was november--now. mr. jenner. november ? mr. pizzo. november --yes; i'm pretty sure it was november. now, that i can recollect--it was november. when he brought the man to me, he said, "this man will have some money. he doesn't have the down payment," because when we were trying to sell the man a car, he asked me how much money he needed to buy this car and i said, "that man needs around $ or $ ." mr. jenner. this is bogard asking you? mr. pizzo. yes; the salesman asking me. he asked me that and i said it was around $ or $ , and so he went back to his booth to work on the customer. mr. jenner. excuse me, at this point, you had not yet seen the customer? mr. pizzo. no, sir. mr. jenner. and mr. bogard had come to you as assistant sales manager, to find out the minimum, let us say, of the down payment? mr. pizzo. of the down payment. mr. jenner. and he had a man who was interested in what make of car? mr. pizzo. now, that's something that i do not remember because there was no writeup sheet that i could go back to to find out exactly what car. i believe it was a comet. mr. jenner. have you made an effort to find a writeup sheet? mr. pizzo. yes; we did--all of us did. mr. jenner. and you discovered what? mr. pizzo. i discovered nothing--no writeup sheet, but the incident that happened later--i'll get to it, if you want me to get to it now, i'll go to it now. mr. jenner. all right. i think probably the best thing for you to do would be for you to tell us in your own words, and i'll try not to interrupt you. mr. pizzo. all right, sir. he brought the customer to me, but previous to that he had taken the customer out on a demonstration ride. mr. jenner. by the way, this occurred at mcallister downtown lincoln mercury? mr. pizzo. that's correct. i think it's better if we do call it that--downtown mcallister lincoln mercury, because the exact day of the change of the name, i don't remember, you see. now, this was previous to the assassination--i would say between a period of a week and a half to weeks, and i would guess i would be right. after the man was worked on to buy a car---- mr. jenner. by bogard. mr. pizzo. by bogard, mr. bogard brought the man to my office and i'm sitting like you are and he brought him to the door. mr. jenner. was this the same day? mr. pizzo. yes; this was within hours, within a period of hours. mr. jenner. this all occurred within a period of hours. mr. pizzo. this all occurred within a period of hours and he brought the man to the door. mr. jenner. what door? mr. pizzo. my office door, and i get up from behind my desk and walk up to the door, and he says, "he doesn't have the down payment, but he will have $ or $ in a couple or weeks." mr. jenner. and this conversation you are now relating occurred after bogard had demonstrated the car? mr. pizzo. had demonstrated the car. mr. jenner. and had come to you and asked for the minimum? mr. pizzo. yes; for the minimum. mr. jenner. and then he had gone back to the customer? mr. pizzo. and the customer told him he didn't have the down payment. mr. jenner. and then he brought the customer to the door of the office? mr. pizzo. right. so, it was just or minutes--i was very busy, we had other deals going, and i said, "okay," and just let it go at that. mr. jenner. what did that mean--"okay"? mr. pizzo. there was nothing we could do with the customer if he didn't have the down payment. i said, "okay," to al bogard, which means--follow him up, use him as a prospect, call him later--that's what we do, we call a man later and try to work something out and this is strictly automobile business. mr. jenner. i appreciate that; yes. mr. pizzo. now, what else do you want to know now? what happened later? mr. jenner. have you now completed relating the incident on the particular date you have in mind? mr. pizzo. on that day; yes, sir. mr. jenner. and your recollection at the moment is that bogard was seeking to interest him in a comet? mr. pizzo. i think so. mr. jenner. that's the ford compact, is it not? mr. pizzo. yes; that's the mercury compact. the caliente--we had a red caliente, i believe, and i believe it was a red caliente he went for a ride in, not that he was selling that particular car, but we had just gotten the new line of the hot compact, which was the caliente, and we bought them all in red and that's what he went for a ride in. mr. jenner. did you say "hot" or "hard"? mr. pizzo. hot--caliente means hot, and that was the hot model of the year--it had just come out. mr. jenner. you have a little bit of new england accent or rhode island or the boston area? mr. pizzo. you can't miss it--you can't hide it. mr. jenner. now, you volunteered there a second that the man had taken a ride in the comet caliente? mr. pizzo. yes. mr. jenner. on what do you base that statement? mr. pizzo. on what al bogard told me, that that was the car he had taken him for a ride in. mr. jenner. you had not seen this man in the car? mr. pizzo. in the car or drive off either. may i tell you the normal procedure that every salesman follows? he talks to the customer, gets him interested in a car, takes him out for a ride and puts him in a booth to see if he can sell him a car, and that's the routine he followed. mr. jenner. and this first stage of taking him for a ride, the salesman drives the car rather than the customer? mr. pizzo. that's the way it should be. mr. jenner. and if the normal procedure were followed here, the prospect would have been taken for a ride by mr. bogard? mr. pizzo. if it was followed, but according to---- mr. jenner. well, if it were followed? mr. pizzo. if it was followed--he drives the customer to a point and lets the customer drive it back. but the only way to demonstrate an automobile is that. you drive it and demonstrate it as you are driving it. mr. jenner. now, since you weren't present at this point we are relying on normal procedures. mr. pizzo. right, sir. mr. jenner. and a remark made by mr. bogard that the customer, whoever he was, had been taken for a demonstration ride by bogard? mr. pizzo. by bogard. mr. jenner. now, have you now stated everything that occurred that particular day, occurred or said to you on that particular day? mr. pizzo. yes; i can't remember anything else. mr. jenner. now, was there a subsequent incident or something that occurred with respect to the incident you have now related, is there a second stage of this? mr. pizzo. yes; after the assassination. mr. jenner. now, when after the assassination? mr. pizzo. the same day--within, oh, or o'clock or something like that. mr. jenner. of the--late in the day on the d of november? mr. pizzo. when this man was captured, and the name announced over the radio, the possible suspect, or the suspect's name was announced on the radio, we had all radios on in the showroom. mr. jenner. you had your radios and television on? mr. pizzo. no; just radios. mr. jenner. just radio? mr. pizzo. well, we had the television set up in the continental department that we were all watching. mr. jenner. and when you say "all," does that include mr. bogard? mr. pizzo. that includes mr. bogard. mr. jenner. all right, relate what happened--you were all sitting around looking at the television, were you? mr. pizzo. i wasn't--i was standing around listening to the radio. we were all in just different groups--this is a mighty big showroom, downtown lincoln-mercury, it is feet long, and we were sitting around listening to the news and also doing the work that had to be done, and when the suspect's name was announced, i was standing right in the middle of the showroom floor and---- mr. jenner. this is this great big showroom--the -foot long showroom? mr. pizzo. yes; but right in front of my office is where the group was standing, because that's a front door and there are three front doors, but this is the first front door, and we were standing right there. of course, all of us were looking out at the underpass, which we are right under, the triple underpass there. mr. jenner. near the area of the assassination scene? mr. pizzo. that's right, sir; we are on this side--the oak cliff side of the bridge, and, of course, we were all standing at the big windows looking at that area and listening to the radio and a remark was made, "well," now, i didn't hear this. it was told to me just a few minutes later. mr. jenner. by whom? mr. pizzo. by some salesman there and i just can't remember which one it was. i think we had around or salesmen there at the time. we weren't all standing around, but someone made the remark that, "al bogard lost his prospect." mr. jenner. you overheard that? mr. pizzo. i overheard that. i said, "what do you mean?" they said, "well--" he pulled out a card, his own business card like this [indicating]. mr. jenner. your salesman did? mr. pizzo. albert bogard--this salesman made the remark that al bogard had pulled out a business card and written behind the business card--a lot of salesmen will do that--they will write down names of prospects on the card and if they don't have a piece of paper, they will just pull out one of their cards and write the names down, and he said, "well, there goes my prospect," when he heard the name lee harvey oswald, so he dumped it in the wastebasket. now, i didn't know about this until a few minutes later and i didn't make much of it at that time. that was it--at that time. i didn't know that that was a custom he had--a week or two before it just--nothing never entered my mind, we were all pretty saddened by the thing, and that was it for that day. let's see, i believe, was that a friday or saturday? mr. jenner. the d was on a friday. mr. pizzo. it was on a friday--i want to tell it to you as correct as i can, that's why i'm wondering. one of the boys said the next day that he had lost his customer and the guy that they have got is the man that bogard has as a prospect, so i says, "let's look--where is the writeup?" the first thing that i had in my mind was--get the writeup, so everyone was looking for the writeup. by now bogard wasn't there, i think it was after lunch or breakfast, so we went through the drawers, and we went through the baskets and i called the two porters we have in the garage--called them in there and i said, "who dumped the baskets out last night," and one fellow said, "i did." i said, "where?" we have a trash barrel--not a barrel, but it's a huge incinerator and the trash men come by and pick it up, and so we went back there and i jumped inside this thing--that's how big it is and started throwing out the papers, looking for some kind of a writeup, and never could find anything. i just wanted the writeup to see if he did have a writeup, but by that time bogard came back and i asked him, i said, "al, have you got a writeup on that man, the man that they have got locked up?" he said, "yes," and i said, "where is it?" he said, "well, it's not a writeup--i've got it on a card and i just took it and threw it down in the basket." mr. jenner. the day before? mr. pizzo. the day before. i said, "well, where is it now?" he said, "i don't know." mr. jenner. did you look through the refuse container to try to find that card? mr. pizzo. we looked for the card to--we went right back again and did the same thing, and he helped look for it and we had the colored boy there helping us looking for it and then when some fbi men came there they went in there and looked for it. mr. jenner. we became very interested in that. mr. pizzo. me too. so, i kind of said, "are you kidding us or what? you either have his name or you don't." he said, "well, frank, don't you remember?" i said, "i don't remember." he said, "i brought him to your office and you said he needed $ or $ down," and i said, "yes, i guess i remember." he said, "well, you should remember because when i took that man for a ride he drove like a wild man, and besides we had gene wilson's car and gene got mad because we used up all his gas." he said, "he drove so fast, he scared the daylights out of me. don't you remember me coming back and saying how mad i was?" i said, "i just don't remember that particular moment." that's how he was trying to get me to remember that particular time when he took him for a ride. i said, "i just really don't remember that night--that much of it." now, i'll tell you how i think i recognized the man--this was after they had him on television and they showed him on television which was monday or tuesday or something like that--it was a few days after. mr. jenner. you mean a rerun? mr. pizzo. no; of the oswalds--when they showed him on television--the first pictures of him on television, i saw that. mr. jenner. and do you recall what day that was? mr. pizzo. it was past a weekend. it was not saturday--it might have been sunday and probably it was monday, but it wasn't friday or saturday, and i'm not sure it was sunday, but i think it was on a monday, and of course--the seed planted--i got to thinking about it and i looked at him and he looked familiar to me, and at that time i could have sworn it was him, because i remember a man in a t-shirt. i don't mean the open t-shirt but a full t-shirt. mr. jenner. like the kind you wore in the marines? mr. pizzo. well, it wasn't green, but that type--the full t-shirt with a sleeve. mr. jenner. about a half sleeve? mr. pizzo. yes; and his face. and he just looked the type. he just looked like the type of guy that i was talking to that day, and when i came back to work the next day, of course we were all in there talking about it, and we talked about different incidences that reminded me of him. i only had a few seconds look at the man. he never said a word. i never heard him talk. mr. jenner. the customer never said a word? mr. pizzo. the customer never said a word--whether it would be him or not--but to me, it looked like it was, only from the pictures. mr. jenner. i will exhibit to you commission exhibits and through and ask you to examine them. does the man depicted there bear a resemblance to what you might possibly recall as the prospective customer you now have in mind? mr. pizzo. [examining photographs referred to.] it wouldn't be fair to say this one, because i think this was in the television or the newspaper with a fat lip--i remember that. mr. jenner. mr. pizzo has refused commission exhibit . mr. pizzo. possibly these two. mr. jenner. it might possibly be commission exhibit or ? mr. pizzo. and i will refuse these two. mr. jenner. the witness also refused commission exhibits nos. and . mr. pizzo. i'm not too positive on these, either. mr. jenner. and he is uncertain even as to commission exhibits nos. and . (an instrument is marked by the reporter as pizzo exhibit -a, for identification.) mr. jenner. showing you that exhibit, do you see any person depicted on that exhibit that resembles or is the prospective customer that was brought to your office door by mr. bogard on the day you have testified about? mr. pizzo. one of these two men seems like it. this one--it seems like it because his nose is too big--one of these two here. mr. jenner. using this green marker, will you put an "x" on the two men? mr. pizzo. i am not positive. mr. jenner. of course you are not positive. mr. pizzo. do you want me to put it right here? mr. jenner. let's pick out the two that most closely resemble the man of which you speak. mr. pizzo. [witness at this point marked instrument referred to.] mr. jenner. now, which of those two that you marked with the little green mark most closely resembles the man you saw? mr. pizzo. right here--but he seems older here--he was a little short guy, the way i figure. mr. jenner. put an "x" above him. the witness has put a cross--a horizontal cross line, through the other line as indicating the man who appears most like the person he saw. your feeling is that the man you have indicated with an "x" seems somewhat taller than the man you recall as having seen at the door of your office prior to november , . is that correct, sir? mr. pizzo. that's correct--about feet inches, something like that, what i recall--or maybe feet - / inches. bogard is pretty tall and it seemed like the fellow was a lot shorter than he was. mr. jenner. and that's what led you to put the marker over the head of the man on the extreme right shown in that picture, pizzo exhibit -a? mr. pizzo. yes--that's right--it's a downhill photo. mr. jenner. i have one that's taken more at a level. we will mark it pizzo exhibit -b. (instrument referred to marked by the reporter as pizzo exhibit no. -b, for identification.) mr. jenner. exhibiting that photograph, does there appear on it anybody who closely resembles the person you recall as having been at the door of your office on the occasion you have described, and if there is, put a mark on it. mr. pizzo. gosh, the man i saw--i want you to know--didn't have that much hair, nor did he have as much hair as these boys in this picture. mr. jenner. the man you saw did not have as much hair as is shown on pizzo commission exhibit -a, which you have marked with a cross? mr. pizzo. that's right, nor as this picture right here--right there. mr. jenner. or the man on pizzo exhibit -b--appears to have more hair than the man you saw at the door of your office? mr. pizzo. that's right. mr. jenner. and the men depicted on commission exhibits nos. and also, in each instance, has more hair than the man you saw at the door of your office? mr. pizzo. yes. mr. jenner. what about the man over whose head you placed a cross on pizzo exhibit -a, that is, in respect to the amount of hair? mr. pizzo. this is more or less the hairline. mr. jenner. now, the witness is pointing to the man over where there is a single vertical stripe, over his head--green, and has dark glasses on. it is his hairline to which you have now adverted? mr. pizzo. yes. mr. jenner. now, the other man has the cross over his head--you wanted to say something about that? mr. pizzo. you said it exactly--that resembles--the face resembles him more than the hairline--it's sort of a "=v=" hairline. mr. jenner. so, your problem has been that the hairline and the man with the single stripe above his head more resembles him than the man you saw at the door of your office, but the physiognomy or the facial features of the man over whose head you have placed the cross more resembles the man you saw? mr. pizzo. yes. i had just wondered if the pictures that i have seen of oswald might have---- mr. jenner. might have colored your judgment now? mr. pizzo. yes. mr. jenner. it's always possible, you know. mr. pizzo. but that hairline is a thing--that's the thing that hit me first when i saw his picture on television. mr. jenner. when you saw oswald's picture on television? mr. pizzo. yes; and in the paper. it was the hairline and the physical features of it--a clean face with the high forehead and the "=v=" shaped hairline, and it's easy to remember that because of the t-shirt, the bare look he had because of the tight t-shirt. mr. jenner. mr. davis has come in and he is representing the attorney general's office of the state of texas. this is mr. robert davis. they are conducting a court of inquiry on this subject. mr. pizzo. i see, sir. mr. jenner. mr. davis, the witness has just emphasized the thing he recalls most about the appearance or physiognomy of the man he saw at the door of his office a week or days prior to november when one of the employees he was supervising, mr. bogard, brought a prospective customer who seemed to be interested in a comet caliente, mr. pizzo was then the general sales manager of mcallister downtown lincoln-mercury. mr. pizzo. i was assistant sales manager. mr. jenner. you are now the sales manager? mr. pizzo. i--of hamilton chrysler. mr. jenner. i have shown him some photographs. he was impressed, he said, that the man he now recalls having seen on the occasion--he was impressed particularly with his hairline. mr. pizzo. that's right. mr. jenner. and that the hairline of the man indicated on pizzo exhibit -a, over whose head he has put the green vertical stripe, has the hairline, but the man over whose head he has placed the cross has more of the facial likeness. the person or persons depicted on commission exhibits nos. and , he says have a resemblance, but it is in his opinion not the man, and in any event the man on those two exhibits has more hair and does not have the particular hairline that impressed you on this occasion? mr. pizzo. that's right. mr. jenner. am i fairly stating your testimony? mr. pizzo. that's right. mr. jenner. i am just trying to summarize for mr. davis. mr. pizzo. thank you. mr. jenner. i now show you a document we will mark as pizzo exhibit -c. (the instrument referred to was marked by the reporter as pizzo exhibit no. -c, for identification.) mr. jenner. this is a picture of lee harvey oswald that i'm about to show you and before i show it to you, may i say that the important thing to us--it is necessary for us to have your very best judgment, and if this isn't the person, we want to know it and to carry yourself back as best you can to that particular occasion when you saw this man at the door of your office, and if this isn't the man, tell us, and if it is--tell us, one way or the other. mr. pizzo. all right. that i will do. [examining instrument referred to.] mr. jenner. the greatest service you can give to us and to the country and to yourself is to just be as fair as you possibly can. mr. pizzo. he certainly don't have the hairline i was describing--it isn't the hairline i was describing. mr. jenner. this was taken the afternoon of november in the dallas city police showup. (discussion off the record.) (discussion between counsel jenner and counsel davis and the witness, mr. pizzo, off the record.) mr. jenner. back on the record. you recall him as being more in the neighborhood of what-- feet inches, feet inches, more or less, or more or less? mr. pizzo. between feet inches and foot - / inches with sort of a round forehead and that =v= shape is the thing that i remember the most. mr. jenner. a widow's peak? mr. pizzo. yes; but very weak. mr. jenner. very weak? mr. pizzo. very weak--not the bushy type that i see in the picture. well, if i'm not sure--then--i have to say that he is not the one--if you want the absolute statement. mr. jenner. i just want your best judgment--i don't want you to say he isn't because you feel you are compelled to state the ultimate. it is better for me to have your rumination about it, as you have been giving us--as to what you looked for, or didn't find and what you did look for in the photographs--what you did find and what you didn't find. now, you don't find the hairline? mr. pizzo. no; i don't. from that picture i don't. mr. jenner. yes; from any of the three pictures, except the one with the man with the stripe over his head? mr. pizzo. that's right--he has the sort of a hairline that i recollect. mr. jenner. that's the man with the one stripe over his head? mr. pizzo. i'll have to take a look again--this is the face--it resembles. mr. jenner. the witness is now pointing to the man that has the cross over it. mr. pizzo. this is the hairline that i remember. mr. jenner. that is the man on the extreme right with the dark glasses, having a single vertical stripe above his head? mr. pizzo. right. mr. jenner. and that picture of mr. oswald that i showed the witness, pizzo exhibit -c, in that picture, he does not have the hairline; is that correct? mr. pizzo. that's correct. mr. jenner. what about his facial expression--features? mr. pizzo. there's resemblance there. may i say something? mr. jenner. surely. mr. pizzo. all the time that i have been thinking about it--because the fbi did tell me that they would call me sometime later and would i appear, and i said--yes, i would. i thought about it and the thing that stuck in my mind was always that hairline--the kind of balding right here--the smooth line. mr. jenner. above each temple? mr. pizzo. and that face resembles. now, i'll tell you, if he has--i've never seen the man in person, but if he has a small mouth it would fit about the description that i would give. i couldn't say absolutely sure that this was the man that was standing in front of my door. mr. jenner. and the witness is now referring to pizzo exhibit -c. i offer pizzo exhibits -a, -b, and -c in evidence. mr. pizzo. may i say something else? mr. jenner. yes; please. mr. pizzo. i have called al bogard into the office after the first interview by the fbi, and i have asked him--i says, "now, it is easy for me to start imagining things because of the emotional situation right now, al. i want you to tell me the truth. am i right when i say i do remember that situation?" he says, "yes," and then he went into some more detail--"of course, don't you remember?" i didn't only ask him once, i asked him again a week later, and he said the same thing and that might have had some influence on it. now, whether that's the man he brought to my door--right now looking at that picture i couldn't swear to it--i wouldn't want to do that. mr. jenner. well, that's a fair type of an appraisal that we want. we want your best judgment. you don't recall the incident that bogard related to you later that sought to stimulate your recollection about somebody who drove this automobile wildly--you don't recall that having been said to you on the afternoon? mr. pizzo. no; i don't--no; i don't. i asked him about it and he told me. i'm the one that was after him to tell me--to help me remember. you see, i'm the one that kept asking him about, "would you help me remember the situation." the more he talked about it, the more i remember that particular situation, but only to the point of "he needs $ or $ ," and he didn't have it at the time but he will have it in a couple of weeks. that's the things that i do remember at the door. mr. jenner. and you do remember this man had a white t-shirt on--the half-sleeve type? mr. pizzo. yes. sleeve type. mr. jenner. with which you are familiar and wore yourself in the marines except yours was colored green? mr. pizzo. it was green--that's right. mr. jenner. mr. davis, he has already related to us the effort he made when this incident came to his attention late in the day on the d of november of seeking to find bogard's card on which he is alleged to have written oswald's name on the reverse side and was to attempt to obtain a writeup sheet, which is what the salesmen normally write up with respect to a prospect, even to the extent of his climbing into the large refuse container in which all paper and waste paper baskets are thrown the following day, and he was not able to find either of those, though they made two examinations and emptied out the large container twice--you did it yourself? mr. pizzo. i did it myself and once with the fbi. i believe it was the man from louisiana--one of the fbi men. mr. jenner. you were interviewed by carter hayden and griffin on january , was it either one of those? on january , ? mr. pizzo. i was interviewed by two pairs of fbi men--it was immediately after the assassination, which was probably monday or tuesday. mr. jenner. the first time? mr. pizzo. the first time; but it wasn't january . mr. jenner. was that the last one--the last interview--january ? mr. pizzo. this might have been the last one, although i remember two other men came in from chicago--one was from chicago--one--i believe there were three, no, i'm sorry, it was the same two twice and then another team. mr. jenner. could i ask you this--knowing mr. bogard as you do, is he a man who on occasion departed from his usual practice of making out a prospect sheet? mr. pizzo. yes. mr. jenner. he sometimes departed from that practice? mr. pizzo. yes; he would write them on just about anything--especially business cards and put them in his desk. mr. jenner. even though, as you recall, he had this man at the customer's booth, where there would be a supply of these writeup sheets, i assume? mr. pizzo. he would ordinarily write the man up after the demonstration ride. mr. jenner. he would not? mr. pizzo. he would--he would ordinarily bring the man in and write him up after a demonstration ride if you can sell him a car. we never did find a writeup sheet--he said he never had one and he said he just wrote the prospect's name on the back of a card and i asked him, "how come, you usually write the thing on an order pad?" and we tried to work from there, and he said, "i just didn't." mr. jenner. i have attempted to locate mr. bogard, just by calling around this morning, but i haven't been able to run him down yet. if you get any lead on where i might reach him, i would appreciate your telling me. i don't mean to suggest that he is trying to escape or anything, but quite the contrary. i just haven't been able to reach him. mr. pizzo. he's working around here somewhere. i believe, according to his application when he gave it to me, he was a sales manager in louisiana and he owned a liquor store. mr. jenner. well, he was the owner of the bent elbow, wherever that is, here. mr. pizzo. yes; and his name isn't used--one of the salesmen sold him the place, the salesman that's still working there sold him the place. i guess he wanted out from under it and just found bogard to do so, and when bogard was bound to own a beer place, my boss immediately fired him. he won't have it. you cannot have outside interests with a dealer development company because factory and dealer development won't stand for it. you have to work primarily for the dealership, and he was fired for that and many other reasons, little reasons that, believe me, have no concern with this. mr. jenner. mr. davis, do you have any questions for mr. pizzo? mr. davis. no. mr. jenner. mr. pizzo, we appreciate very much your coming in and i know it was of considerable inconvenience at the month end and you have a lot of salesmen who want their money or pay. mr. pizzo. i told my boss today--he says, "do you have to go?" i said, "i have to go, but really, if i wasn't so patriotic, they would have to come after me, i told him." mr. jenner. we appreciate it very much. you have a right, mr. pizzo, to read over your deposition if you wish and to sign it--this deposition i have taken of you, and if you care to exercise that right and make any corrections you wish, miss oliver will have this probably near the end of the week and you can call in and ask mr. sanders, the u.s. attorney, or for one of us if we are around--they will refer you to us anyhow, or you have a right to waive that, as you see fit. it is a privilege you may exercise if you wish to. mr. pizzo. you mean what i have said here today? mr. jenner. yes. mr. pizzo. i believe everything i have said today--i will be glad to sign it. mr. jenner. you don't have to--it is entirely up to you, if you see fit. mr. pizzo. when would i get this deposition? mr. jenner. well, it will be ready for you to read--miss oliver will have it toward the end of the week. mr. pizzo. all right, sir. mr. jenner. if you will call in, she can tell you if it is ready and advise you if it isn't ready and then when it will be ready. mr. pizzo. well, i wish you gentlemen a lot of luck. mr. jenner. thank you very much. testimony of albert guy bogard the testimony of albert guy bogard was taken at : a.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. joseph a. ball, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. ball. will you stand and be sworn? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before this commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. bogard. i do. mr. ball. will you state your name, please. mr. bogard. albert guy bogard. mr. ball. and your address? mr. bogard. brighton street. mr. ball. what is your occupation? mr. bogard. sales manager for l & l vending co. mr. ball. what do you sell? mr. bogard. vending machines. mr. ball. vending machines. what kind of vending machines? mr. bogard. vending machines. cigarette machines. mr. ball. oh, vending. oh, i see. i couldn't understand your texas dialect. that is the--i understand now. vending. mr. bogard. i have sinus trouble. mr. ball. oh, you have? let me see. where were you born and raised? mr. bogard. born in cowshatta, la. mr. ball. where did you go to school? mr. bogard. hall summit, la. mr. ball. how far through school, sir? mr. bogard. finished. eleventh grade. mr. ball. eleventh grade? and what occupation did you pursue after that? mr. bogard. u.s. navy. mr. ball. how long? mr. bogard. four years and two months and three days, i think, to be exact. mr. ball. then what did you do? what did you do after that? mr. bogard. i started selling automobiles. mr. ball. did you sell automobiles from then on until---- mr. bogard. then on until just recently. mr. ball. i see. when did you take this job you are on now? mr. bogard. january. mr. ball. of ? mr. bogard. ; yes, sir. mr. ball. who did you work for last fall, ? mr. bogard. downtown lincoln mercury, east commerce, dallas, tex. mr. ball. shortly after the death of president kennedy you notified the fbi, didn't you? mr. bogard. i did not notify the fbi. mr. ball. did you notify someone that you had information? mr. bogard. was the other salesman notified the fbi. mr. ball. who was he? mr. bogard. i forget the name. mr. ball. but he notified the fbi that you had some information? mr. bogard. yes. mr. ball. and did some special agent from the federal bureau of investigation come and call on you? mr. bogard. yes, sir; several times. mr. ball. and took a statement from you? mr. bogard. yes; i took a lie detector test. mr. ball. you told him about an incident which occurred sometime before? mr. bogard. yes, sir; week before. mr. ball. just week before? mr. bogard. yes, sir; just one--one week before--two weeks before. mr. ball. about what date? do you remember? mr. bogard. ninth day of november, i think it was, to be exact. mr. ball. ? mr. bogard. . mr. ball. what day of the week was that? mr. bogard. that was on a saturday. mr. ball. when was it? in the morning, or afternoon? mr. bogard. afternoon. mr. ball. about what time? mr. bogard. i think it was around : or o'clock, as i was leaving town shortly after i gave the demonstration in the automobile and i was in a hurry. mr. ball. tell me just what happened there? tell me the incident that you remember and that you related to the federal---- mr. bogard. a gentleman walked in the door and walked up and introduced himself to me, and tells me he wants to look at a car. i show him a car on the showroom floor, and take him for a ride out stemmons expressway and back, and he was driving at to miles an hour and came back to the showroom. and i made some figures, and he told me that he wasn't ready to buy, that he would be in a couple or weeks, that he had some money coming in. and when he finally started to leave i got his name and wrote it on the back of one of my business cards, and never heard from the man any more. and the day that the president was shot, when i heard that--they had the radio on in the showroom, and when i heard the name, that he had shot a policeman over in oak cliff, i pulled out some business cards that i had wrote his name on the back on, and said, "he won't be a prospect any more because he is going to jail," and ripped the card up. mr. ball. threw it away? mr. bogard. threw it away. mr. ball. and when the fbi agent came to see you, the card had already been thrown away? mr. bogard. yes, sir; i tore it up that very same day. mr. ball. this was friday the d? mr. bogard. yes, sir; the day i heard that kennedy had been killed. i hadn't heard that the president had been killed; just heard a policeman had been shot and that's when i tore up the card and said, "he won't want to buy a car." mr. ball. now, what kind of a looking man was he, or could you describe him? mr. bogard. i can tell you the truth, i have already forgotten what he actually looked like. i identified him as in pictures, but just to tell you what he looked like that day, i don't remember. mr. ball. you don't have a memory of it? mr. bogard. no, sir. mr. ball. was he tall, or short? mr. bogard. about medium build, i'd say. mr. ball. do you remember what name he gave you? mr. bogard. gave me lee oswald. mr. ball. did he give you that when he first introduced---- mr. bogard. he give me that when he started to leave. mr. ball. oh, gave you that when he started to leave? mr. bogard. yes. mr. ball. and didn't give you any name when he first introduced himself? mr. bogard. no, sir. mr. ball. did he tell you what kind of a car he wanted? mr. bogard. yes, sir; wanted a caliente, two-door hardtop. mr. ball. what kind of make is that? mr. bogard. mercury comet. mr. ball. and did you show him one? mr. bogard. yes, sir. mr. ball. what color did you show him? mr. bogard. red. mr. ball. you took a ride with him? mr. bogard. yes, sir. mr. ball. did he drive, or did you drive it? mr. bogard. he drove it. mr. ball. drive it, right out of the shop, or did you drive it first and then---- mr. bogard. no; he drove it right offhand. he got in driving it. mr. ball. did he appear to know how to drive the car? mr. bogard. well, he had drove before, i'm sure, because he took off. mr. ball. did he---- mr. bogard. he might have drove a little reckless, but other than that, he knew how to drive. mr. ball. what do you mean, "he might have drove it a little reckless"? mr. bogard. well, going and miles an hour right up a freeway and took curves kind of fast. mr. ball. did it appear to you that he knew how to handle the car? mr. bogard. yes. mr. ball. now, when you got back to the showroom you say you did some figuring. what kind of figuring? mr. bogard. just took out some papers and going to write up how much the car would cost and, just like with anybody else, just trying to close the deal, and he said he would have the money in or weeks and would come in and---- mr. ball. did you tell him you needed a down payment? mr. bogard. he said he would have it. mr. ball. did you tell him how much? mr. bogard. yes. mr. ball. how much? mr. bogard. three hundred dollars, i think. and he said he didn't have the money then and would just pay cash for it at a later date. mr. ball. did he tell you where he lived? mr. bogard. no, sir. mr. ball. did he give you his--didn't give you his address or telephone number? mr. bogard. no, sir; or occupation. mr. ball. and he gave you his name, though? mr. bogard. lee oswald. mr. ball. at what time? mr. bogard. that is when he was fixing to leave. mr. ball. lee oswald? mr. bogard. uh-huh. mr. ball. you say you wrote it on one of your own cards? mr. bogard. yes, sir; back of one of my business cards. mr. ball. did you tell anybody about it at that time? mr. bogard. now, at that time i don't know whether--now, mr. pizzo, i think i introduced him to him. i introduced him to mr. pizzo. he asked what was wrong with him and i said he hasn't got the money right now. will be back in a couple or weeks. mr. ball. you introduced him to pizzo? mr. bogard. yes, sir. mr. ball. and you said this in front of pizzo that he didn't have the money? mr. bogard. yes, sir; he was expecting some money--to have the money in or weeks. mr. ball. when did you see the television that called your attention to this? mr. bogard. i heard it on the radio. mr. ball. you heard it on the radio? mr. bogard. and then i tore the card up, and that very same night on the o'clock news, i think it was, if i remember correctly, i saw him on tv. mr. ball. did you see any pictures of lee oswald in the newspaper? mr. bogard. yes, sir; dallas morning news, next morning. mr. ball. now, what was your impression when you saw the man on television? mr. bogard. all my impression was that he had been in and tried to buy a car, that he wasn't a prospect any more. mr. ball. what about his picture in the paper? did it appear to be--did you recognize him from the picture? mr. bogard. yes; i recognized him as being the same fellow that had been in. mr. ball. and did you tell anybody out there that you thought it was the same person? mr. bogard. they began asking me then, and i said, "yes," and this pizzo recognized him, too. mr. ball. what did pizzo say? mr. bogard. said, "yes; that is the same man." and pizzo also has been questioned by the fbi. mr. ball. how do you spell his name? mr. bogard. p-i-z-z-o. mr. ball. he was the sales manager? mr. bogard. yes, sir. mr. ball. is he still the sales manager out there? mr. bogard. no, sir. mr. ball. where is he now? mr. bogard. i don't know. i think, though, that he is at eagle lincoln-mercury. i wouldn't be for sure, because i haven't seen pizzo since i left downtown lincoln-mercury. mr. ball. now, when was it that you talked to the other salesman about this and told them that you thought the man had been in to see you? mr. bogard. we were all standing there listening to the radio and the name came on the radio, and i pulled this business card out with "lee oswald," wrote across it. mr. ball. who were some of the men standing by the radio when you pulled this business card out? mr. bogard. oh, i think oran brown was there, mr. wilson was there, and this other little boy, he hadn't been there very long. i can't remember his name at this time right now. mr. ball. oran brown and wilson? mr. bogard. yes. mr. ball. what are wilson's initials, do you have them? mr. bogard. i can't remember mr. wilson's initials right now. mr. ball. wilson a salesman? mr. bogard. yes, sir; been there for about years. mr. ball. is brown a salesman? mr. bogard. he works for fina oil co. out here on inwood road now. mr. ball. what is it? mr. bogard. [spelling] o-r-a-n. mr. ball. [spelling] o-r-a-n--oil what? mr. bogard. my--no, he works for fina oil co., american petra fina oil co. a service station. mr. ball. service station? mr. bogard. he manages this service station out there. new, big service station. mr. ball. well, mr. bogard, did you receive a letter from the commission asking you to appear here? mr. bogard. no, sir. mr. ball. you were asked to appear by the secret service? mr. bogard. yes, sir. mr. ball. i probably should have stated to you the purpose of this inquiry. the commission has been authorized to investigate the assassination of the president and any facts or circumstances that might determine who assassinated him. and our attention was called to your testimony by the federal bureau of investigation report, and we asked you to come in and testify and you did so willingly, didn't you? mr. bogard. yes, sir. mr. ball. you were willing? mr. bogard. yes, sir. mr. ball. willing to come in and testify and be sworn? mr. bogard. yes, sir. mr. ball. and testify as to these facts? mr. bogard. yes, sir. mr. ball. i am a staff officer with the commission. mr. bogard. yes, sir. mr. ball. and i am authorized by the commission to administer the oath to you and ask you these questions, and all questions you answered were under oath. you understand that? mr. bogard. yes, sir; i answered the same questions under a polygraph test. mr. ball. under a polygraph test from the fbi? mr. bogard. yes, sir. mr. ball. now, this will be written up and submitted to you for your signature, and you can come down here and look it over and read it and sign it, or you may waive your signature--whatever you wish. which do you prefer? mr. bogard. which do you want? put it that way. mr. ball. i'm going to leave it up to you. that is really something for you to decide whether you want to come back down here or not. mr. bogard. i don't mind coming back down. mr. ball. we'll notify you and you can come in and we will notify you when it is ready and you can come in and sign it. mr. bogard. thank you. mr. ball. thank you for coming down. mr. bogard. thank you, mr. ball. mr. ball. all right. testimony of floyd guy davis the testimony of floyd guy davis was taken at : a.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. liebeler. mr. davis, would you please rise and raise your right hand. do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. davis. i do. mr. liebeler. please sit down. mr. davis, my name is wesley j. liebeler. i am a member of the legal staff of the president's commission investigating the assassination of president kennedy. i have been authorized by the commission to take testimony from you and from other witnesses pursuant to authority granted to the commission by executive order , dated november , , and joint resolution of congress no. . i understand that mr. rankin wrote to you, mr. davis, last week and indicated--in point of fact, the letter was returned to washington and it was on my desk when i left. it was addressed to the sports drome rifle range and could not be delivered at that address. with the letter that mr. rankin originally sent to you, he enclosed a copy of the executive order and joint resolution to which i just referred as well as a copy of the commission's rules of procedure relating to the taking of testimony. since you didn't get copies of those documents nor the letter, i now hand you copies of those documents which you may keep for your own reference. it is my understanding that you were contacted by the secret service and requested to come here and give testimony. technically, you are entitled to -days' notice. i don't expect you did get it, but you are now here and i assume you have no objection to going ahead with your testimony at this point, is that correct? mr. davis. that's right, yes. mr. liebeler. i want to inquire concerning the possibility that lee harvey oswald engaged in rifle practice at a rifle range which would be, i am informed, one which you operated at west davis, dallas, tex. before we get into the details of that, would you state your full name? mr. davis. floyd guy davis. mr. liebeler. what is your address? mr. davis. byway. mr. liebeler. how old are you, sir? mr. davis. thirty-two. mr. liebeler. where were you born? mr. davis. in louisville, ky. mr. liebeler. when did you move to dallas? mr. davis. it was approximately years ago. mr. liebeler. did you move here from louisville? mr. davis. yes. mr. liebeler. you have lived all your life in louisville and dallas, is that correct? mr. davis. yes. mr. liebeler. am i correct in understanding that during the period october and november of , you were the operator of the sports dome rifle range at west davis? mr. davis. that is d-r-o-m-e. it is sports drome. mr. liebeler. i was pronouncing it dome. mr. davis. i thought you were. mr. liebeler. are you still operating that rifle range? mr. davis. yes, we are. mr. liebeler. when did you commence operating it? mr. davis. the exact date, i don't have, sir. it was about the first of october of last year. mr. liebeler. we are informed that the fbi has interviewed you and taken from you certain shell cases? mr. davis. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. for analysis in the fbi laboratory? mr. davis. yes. mr. liebeler. could you tell us briefly the circumstances that led up to that, as far as you know. mr. davis. well, the only thing that i know that happened, there was some people that said that they had seen oswald out at the range on three different occasions. i believe that it was on the th, the th, and the th of november. and they informed the fbi that he was out there. the two i am sure that contacted me was mr. malcolm price or howard price and garland slack, and the fbi in turn came out and talked to us. mr. liebeler. malcolm price? mr. davis. that is malcolm howard price, is his full name. mr. liebeler. did you know his name yourself? mr. davis. yes; he worked with me. mr. liebeler. he worked with you? mr. davis. he does now. at that time he was helping us out there trying to get the range started, and he has a heart ailment where he don't hold a regular job, so he helps us out there a little bit on the range. mr. liebeler. did he tell you that he had seen an individual who he thought was oswald at the range? mr. davis. he sure did. mr. liebeler. did he tell you what date he thought he saw this man? mr. davis. he said on the th and the th and the th. mr. liebeler. three different occasions? mr. davis. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. were you there at the range on those days? mr. davis. i was there, but not at the time that he was talking about on the th and the th. now on the th, i was there, and the two individuals that he brought up in their testimony, i remember them being there, but i don't remember the faces. mr. liebeler. how do you mean you remember them being there? mr. davis. well, mr. slack, there was this booth no. on the rifle range---- mr. liebeler. on what date? mr. davis. on the th; and i was holding the turkey shoot at the same time. mr. slack come to me and was complaining about someone shooting his target. so there was two young fellows, i can remember the approximate height of them but i don't remember what their faces looked like, that were in booth no. . i do remember the person that was in booth no. , though, because i don't know whether you have talked to mr. charlie brown in the last weeks or not on this---- mr. liebeler. mr. brown, the fbi agent, yes. mr. davis. there was a fellow with a black beard in that booth no. , at the same time. i remember him because he was outstanding, you know, and i went to these fellows in booth no. , and was giving them heck about shooting at the wrong target. and this other fellow, i remember him because he wouldn't say anything to me. i tried to speak to him two or three different occasions, because he had a lot of guns, and i thought he would be a good customer. mr. liebeler. the fellow with the beard? mr. davis. yes. mr. liebeler. he was how tall, approximately? mr. davis. he was over feet and he weighed a good pounds. a big bruiser. mr. liebeler. i think we can assume that was not lee harvey oswald. mr. davis. they were trying to find him. charlie brown was trying to find this person, and weeks ago on a sunday morning i saw him in an automobile out on davis, i believe it was. mr. liebeler. the big fellow with the beard? mr. davis. the big fellow there with the beard. and i got the license number on the car and the type of car it was and called it into the office. i haven't heard anything from mr. brown since then, whether he got the information, but i am sure he did when i turned it into the office. mr. liebeler. now let's review this. mr. slack was in booth no. , is that correct? mr. davis. yes. mr. liebeler. this big fellow was in booth no. ? mr. davis. right. and there was the two young fellows in booth no. . one of them was foot or foot , somewhere in that vicinity, and the other one was about foot, and he was blackheaded. i can remember that, but as far as remembering their faces, with that turkey shoot we had people that day, i can't remember what they looked like. mr. liebeler. you say that these two fellows, one was approximately feet tall or over, is that correct? mr. davis. yes. mr. liebeler. was heavy-set or slender? mr. davis. no; he wasn't particularly heavy-set, he was just a medium build. mr. liebeler. he was not of a light build, however? mr. davis. no; he wasn't. he was just about my size. i would say to pounds. mr. liebeler. how tall are you? mr. davis. six-one. mr. liebeler. and you weigh? mr. davis. i weigh about , but i was a little bit heavier about that time. mr. liebeler. did you determine which of the fellows was shooting at mr. slack's target? mr. davis. no, sir. mr. liebeler. did you speak to both of them or all three of them? mr. davis. not as an individual. i spoke to the group to be sure they were firing at the right target and to watch where they were facing because they were shooting at the wrong target. mr. liebeler. this mr. slack, now then, believes that one of the two of these fellows could have been lee harvey oswald, is that right? mr. davis. yes; that's right. mr. liebeler. mr. slack has told you that? mr. davis. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. and mr. price was also there the same day? mr. davis. he said he was. mr. liebeler. he also indicated that he thinks one of those two gentlemen was oswald? mr. davis. yes. mr. liebeler. you yourself had an opportunity to observe both of these gentlemen, did you not? mr. davis. yes; i sure did. mr. liebeler. i want to show you some pictures which have been previously marked as commission exhibits nos. , , , and , and ask you if you recognize from these pictures the pictures of the individuals who were firing from booth no. , at your range on sunday, november , ? mr. davis. he sure looks familiar, but i couldn't say for sure. it sure looks familiar. this would have been the taller of the two, and this is almost---- mr. liebeler. you pointed to commission exhibit , and you think that gentleman resembles the taller of the two men that were firing from booth no. ? mr. davis. yes; he is about the same size. the face features, i seem to have seen them before, but as far as--it sure looks like him. i couldn't say definitely that it was him, but it sure looks a lot like him. mr. liebeler. do you see any resemblance between any of the pictures which i have shown and the shorter of the two men? mr. davis. the face on the other one, i couldn't say what it looked like. so many of these pictures of lee harvey oswald have been shown to me, and they started showing me things about the time it all happened, and i would hate to say that it was him. but definitely this fellow, the taller of the two fellows was about his built. he looked like he is about my size. he may be a little bit shorter in those pictures. mr. liebeler. what about the facial features of the gentleman on ? mr. davis. like i say, the features of his face are familiar, they seem to be familiar to me, but as far as definitely saying that was the person out there i---- mr. liebeler. you couldn't do that? mr. davis. no, sir; but it does look familiar, sir. mr. liebeler. i show you next a photograph that has previously been marked pizzo exhibit -b, which is a photograph of several individuals, one of whom has been marked by a green marker. i ask you if that picture bears any resemblance to either of the two men you saw firing from booth no. , at your rifle range on sunday, november ? mr. davis. like i said before i couldn't be too sure because i have saw so many pictures of this that look like lee harvey oswald that they get to running together with them when i get to thinking about them, and i would hate to say that i was, because i have saw pictures of him in all different forms, in the newspapers, in--and also some that the police have brought out there, and the grand prairie police brought them, and some of the fbi, and i would hate to say because i was very much interested in the case at the time it did happen, because myself it was a blow to the business that i am in. as far as someone with a high-powered rifle shooting the president like he did, i was afraid they were going to pass a bill which would stop that stuff, and it is like a hard blow to me. mr. liebeler. to your business at the range? mr. davis. yes. mr. liebeler. did your business actually fall off after the assassination? mr. davis. it practically died on that thing. it just gradually--yesterday we had one person out there, compared to and when we first opened. of course, they were in deer season. that had a lot to do with it. mr. liebeler. have you ever been shown this picture that i just showed you before? mr. davis. no. mr. liebeler. -b? mr. davis. not that particular shot. mr. liebeler. i will show you an exhibit marked pizzo -c, and ask you if you recognize that individual as being one of those who were at your range on the date we have been discussing? mr. davis. i have saw that picture or similar one before. mr. liebeler. you have seen the picture before? mr. davis. i have seen a picture similar to him before. there was a scar on his head, but as far as that is concerned, i don't believe i have saw the individual. mr. liebeler. you can't identify that individual as either one of the two that was at the range? mr. davis. no, sir; definitely. mr. liebeler. let me show you exhibit again and ask you if that individual appears to you to be the same individual as lee harvey oswald, based on your observation of oswald's picture in the newspaper and the press? mr. davis. that this is lee harvey oswald? mr. liebeler. yes. does that appear to you to be lee harvey oswald? mr. davis. no, sir. mr. liebeler. it does not? mr. davis. no, sir. this mr. price did say that oswald was in an old model chevrolet when he was out there on this friday, the th, because it was late in the afternoon when he came out there. and mr. price helped him sight that rifle in. helped him sight the scope in on the rifle, and he had two comments to say about that rifle, sir. i am not for sure, i don't know anything about it, but he said that the markings, all but the serial number had been filed off of this particular rifle. mr. liebeler. mr. price did say that? mr. davis. yes, sir. and he said that the scope was the clearest scope that he had ever seen for a small scope. mr. liebeler. did he tell you what size scope it was? mr. davis. yes; he told me, but as far as---- mr. liebeler. do you remember what he said? mr. davis. not the exact size of it. i know there was several different sizes of scopes on there. mr. liebeler. the size of this scope is measured in terms of power? mr. davis. yes. there is , - / , , , and on up. and he knows the sizes, what he was talking about, but i don't know. mr. liebeler. how long have you known mr. price? mr. davis. well, i have actually only known him since the rifle range opened. but two of his boys has helped us at the racetrack or helped my wife last summer, at the racetrack, all summer. and as far as an individual person, i didn't know him until we opened the gun range, other than just to speak to him. mr. liebeler. how old a fellow is he? mr. davis. mr. price is approximately , and he does have a heart condition that the doctors won't let him work, as far as any work is concerned, and that is why he stays down at the range, more or less to watch it for us. mr. liebeler. in your opinion, is he a reliable fellow? mr. davis. he is very reliable, or i wouldn't have him down there. mr. liebeler. you don't think he would say he saw oswald if he didn't in fact see him? mr. davis. no, sir. in fact, he told us about this before we called the fbi. but he was afraid--he's got five children, and he was afraid that it was some communist plot or some gang that had done this, and he was afraid for his children, or he would have called them sooner. mr. liebeler. he is not a publicity seeker? mr. davis. no; he wasn't. i would say he was very sincere of this. it might have been a case about a double identity or someone that looked a lot like him. i would say definitely that he thought he saw him. there was also some doctor or lawyer in oak cliff, and his son, that he said he saw him out there on the th. mr. liebeler. was that on the th? mr. davis. that was on the th. mr. liebeler. was that dr. wood? mr. davis. i believe it was. mr. liebeler. dentist? mr. davis. he might be a dentist. they told us at the range--charlie brown, i believe, afterwards, of the fbi, said that he wasn't sure it was him, but they told us previously they were sure that it was oswald. mr. liebeler. has the fbi ever advised you as to the results of the tests they probably ran on or did run on the cartridge cases you gave them? mr. davis. no; nothing. i asked them if they were all there when they returned them. he did return them, and he said they were all there, so i took it from that that they didn't find anything in the case. mr. liebeler. do you know whether the cases that you gave the fbi were cases that were used in a rifle that were used by these gentlemen that were firing from booth no. , on november , ? mr. davis. from what mr. price told me, he was down at the range helping out on the particular target. he saw these fellows pick up all the shells and--they shot that day, which is very frequent, because they reload a lot of that ammunition, but these particular fellows did pick them up. mr. liebeler. did your wife observe these two individuals on the th? mr. davis. no, sir; she was in the office, she doesn't remember them, or she said before that she didn't remember them. she doesn't remember this part i was telling you about, about slack coming to them and complaining about their shooting the wrong target. mr. liebeler. who else said they saw oswald on the th and th? mr. davis. that was mr. price. mr. liebeler. that was mr. price? mr. davis. yes. mr. slack said he saw him on the th. mr. liebeler. the th only? mr. davis. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. can you give me mr. slack's full name? mr. davis. no, sir; i don't have it. mr. liebeler. he is just a customer of yours, is that correct? mr. davis. yes, sir; mr. brown has talked to him before. mr. liebeler. mr. price was not at the range on the th? mr. davis. price was at the range on the th; yes, also. mr. liebeler. did he also say that he thinks that these gentlemen were with mr. oswald? mr. davis. he thought this one individual that was with this taller fellow in booth no. , was oswald. mr. liebeler. both mr. slack and mr. price came to that conclusion, is that correct? mr. davis. yes. mr. liebeler. am i correct in understanding then that both mr. price and mr. slack observed these two gentlemen on the th, but only mr. price observed them on the th and th, is that correct? mr. davis. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. do you know whether mr. price thinks they are the same men? mr. davis. he definitely thinks that it is the same man oswald on the th and th. i don't believe he said there was anyone with him, and that he come out there just at dark, right before dark and was driving an old-model chevrolet, or was in an old-model chevrolet. mr. liebeler. was it just a car or a station wagon? mr. davis. i don't remember. he just said it was an old-model car, and he could have meant a station wagon when he said an old car. mr. liebeler. did you observe the rifle that these men at booth , were using? mr. davis. no, sir. mr. liebeler. you did not at anytime observe it? mr. davis. i possibly could have when i walked up there, but i didn't pay any attention. mr. liebeler. and you wouldn't be able to identify that rifle if i showed you a picture of it now? mr. davis. no, sir; when you see as many rifles as i do out at that range out there, it would be hard unless there was something outstanding about it. mr. liebeler. there was nothing outstanding about that that you can remember now? mr. davis. i was more or less mad when i went down there, because someone was shooting at the wrong target. mr. liebeler. did you observe these two gentlemen leaving the range on the th? mr. davis. no, sir; i sure didn't. mr. liebeler. have you had experience with the sighting in of rifles? mr. davis. yes. mr. liebeler. you are quite experienced in that field, as a matter of fact, are you not? mr. davis. well, i have taught myself in the past months of operation of that gun range to where i can usually sight one in within to shots pretty close. mr. price is a gun enthusiast and he is real good at it, and he has been doing it for a long time. mr. liebeler. if a man purchased a rifle from a mail-order house that had a telescopic sight mounted on it, would you have any opinion as to what the accuracy of that rifle would be without it having actually been sighted in by actual firing of the rifle? mr. davis. if the gun was anywhere near accurate, it would have to be an accident, because the slightest jar can knock a scope or foot out of balance, and there is no way that you could ship a gun and carry a gun around a little bit and make sure it being accurate. that is why your deer hunters practice and shoot their guns in every year before they go deer hunting. and i have saw them waste almost five boxes of shells trying to get them accurate down there after having sighted them in the year before. mr. liebeler. are you familiar with the technique of boresighting? mr. davis. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. if a rifle is boresighted is that enough to make it accurate? mr. davis. by the average individual, no. and by the shops around dallas here, no. because they have brought us several guns out there that have been boresighted in various shops around dallas and we have had to resight them, because another thing, the scope will have to be adjusted to the individual eyes, too. mr. liebeler. and that can only be done through firing a rifle? mr. davis. that is right, that can only be done from firing a rifle and sighting it in. you can get it close, but you couldn't get it right on target, especially at a hundred yards. every gun i sight in, i boresight them myself at a -yard target to get them into the -yard target, and once i get it within an inch of the "bullseye," then i go to the long range, which is easy to bring it in. mr. liebeler. are you familiar with the irving sports shop in irving, tex.? mr. davis. nothing; only i have dropped a poster off, advertising, when i first opened the gun range, and i am not familiar with the owner of it. mr. liebeler. do you know a gentleman by the name of dial ryder? mr. davis. no, sir; not the name. i may know the face, but i don't know the name. mr. liebeler. he works in the irving sports shop. mr. davis. no, sir. mr. liebeler. sights rifles and mounts scopes and things like that. mr. davis. no; i am not familiar with him. mr. liebeler. do you know whether you have ever sighted in a rifle that has been boresighted at the irving sports shop? mr. davis. no, sir; not offhand. we usually don't ask them where they sighted the guns in because it is not a good idea to run down any gunshop. mr. liebeler. are you familiar with the area around love field? mr. davis. fairly familiar with it; yes, sir. mr. liebeler. do you think it would be possible to practice with a high-powered rifle around love field? mr. davis. it would be right about bachman lake, around the lake itself, as long as the police didn't catch you. there is the river bottom right in there. mr. liebeler. do you think it would be possible to fire out there, to sight a rifle in without having a police notice it or someone in the neighborhood notice it and calling it to the police? mr. davis. as long as you stayed yards off the highway, there is places down there you could get that it would be possible. mr. liebeler. there are areas surrounding the field that are not built up to such an extent so that you could actually practice with a rifle in that area, is that correct? mr. davis. yes. mr. liebeler. have you ever heard of anybody firing a rifle in that vicinity? mr. davis. i have people all the time that have been practicing in the trinity river bottoms around dallas come out to the range and have been glad we opened that range so they could quit it because it is not a safe practice. mr. liebeler. is that near love field? mr. davis. yes. the trinity river bottom is not far from there. it is actually between irving and love field. mr. liebeler. how far is it from love field itself if you wanted to go to the trinity river bottom and didn't have an automobile? could you take a bus to love field or near love field and then walk that readily to the trinity river bottom? mr. davis. yes. mr. liebeler. one could do that very easily? mr. davis. it is a mile and a half. mr. liebeler. i don't have any other questions at this point. i do want to ask you if you can give me, mr. davis, mr. slack's address? mr. davis. i don't have it here, but i have some clippings at home out of a newspaper that has it there. he lives on urbandale. if you have a dallas phone book, i can probably get it out of the phone book. mr. liebeler. what about price? mr. davis. mr. price lives on rice street in grand prairie. mr. liebeler. if you can think of anything that you would like to add to the record, i would appreciate it if you would indicate that. mr. davis. the only thing that i would like to say is that there were several other people mentioned that they saw oswald on the th, but they said they didn't want to get involved in it. i don't know whether they were just talking or what it was. mr. liebeler. do you know their names? mr. davis. not no particular persons. my wife, i'm sure, can tell you some of them. she more or less runs the gun range through the week, and i am only there through the weekend. mr. liebeler. thank you very much for coming in, mr. davis. i appreciate your cooperation. the commission wants you to know that it appreciates the fact that you have cooperated with us in the way you have. thank you very much. testimony of virginia louise davis the testimony of virginia louise davis was taken at a.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. liebeler. would you rise and raise your right hand. do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mrs. davis. i do. mr. liebeler. my name is wesley j. liebeler. i am a member of the legal staff of the president's commission that is investigating the assassination of president kennedy. i have been authorized to take testimony from you and from other witnesses pursuant to authority granted to the commission by executive order , dated november , , and joint resolution of congress no. . as i told your husband, whose testimony which i just took, mr. rankin sent you both a letter last week which was returned to washington because it could not be delivered at the gun range. it was addressed to the sports drome rifle range and it could not be delivered there. mr. rankin in the letter advised you that we would be in touch with you to arrange for the taking of your testimony. he enclosed copies of the executive order and the congressional resolution, as well as a copy of the commission's rules governing the taking of testimony from witnesses. i gave your husband a copy of those documents and he has them and will make them available to you if you want to look at them. you have been provided with copies this morning. as i told mr. davis, you are technically entitled to -days' notice before appearing before us, but since you are here, i presume that you would be willing to waive that notice and will go ahead? mrs. davis. sure. mr. liebeler. we want to question you about the possibility that lee harvey oswald engaged in rifle practice at the rifle range which is operated by you and your husband. before i get into the details of that testimony, however, would you state your full name for the record? mrs. davis. virginia louise davis. mr. liebeler. you are married to floyd guy davis, is that correct? mrs. davis. yes. mr. liebeler. your address is byway, dallas? mrs. davis. dallas; yes, sir. mr. liebeler. you and your husband have been operating the sports drome rifle range since some time in october ; is that correct? mrs. davis. that's right. mr. liebeler. are you a native of dallas, mrs. davis? mrs. davis. no; kentucky. mr. liebeler. where in kentucky? mrs. davis. louisville. mr. liebeler. when did you move to dallas? mrs. davis. oh, let's see, it has been years ago, i think. i think we have been here years. mr. liebeler. you and your husband moved to dallas from louisville together; is that correct? mrs. davis. he came down about months before i did. mr. liebeler. were you married at that time? mrs. davis. yes. mr. liebeler. the commission has had reports that various people observed a gentleman whom they believed to be lee harvey oswald at the sports drome rifle range at west davis on various occasions. i would like to have you tell us now just what you know about those reports, and whether or not you have ever seen anybody there that resembled oswald? mrs. davis. no; i did not. mr. liebeler. you have not? mrs. davis. no. there is only three things that stand out in my mind at the time it happened that i can verify what they say, and that is the one night that i was there by myself and mr. howard price got the last customer that came in and took him down there, and he said that he thought it was lee harvey oswald because of the rifle, it being an italian rifle with this scope on it, and he remembered the gun. mr. liebeler. mr. price told you that? mrs. davis. yes. and then the other time i was there was, this gentleman that was supposed to have been with him with the beard, and i couldn't forget him--if i would see the man right now i would recognize him, but he has never been back. mr. liebeler. can you tell us the date that mr. price said he took oswald in, or this man who he thought was oswald, who was the last customer? mrs. davis. i don't know the exact date, but i wrote it in my journal, but i don't have it with me. mr. liebeler. when you refer to the journal, what do you mean? mrs. davis. it is a daily record i keep of everything that happens at the range. when we first opened, everyone had to sign it. but the fbi picked up the sign-in slips and checked it out, and, of course, lee harvey oswald wasn't on it, but at the time we did not have fences up and anyone could get on the range without us knowing it. mr. liebeler. do you know whether or not this man who mr. price took down to the range this evening as the last customer signed in the book or not? mrs. davis. he did not. it was our last customer and he just went on down with him because it was late and they were tired and cold and wanting to get home. but he was in an old car and he was alone and he was a young slender man, and that is all i know. mr. liebeler. do you know what kind of car it was? mrs. davis. no; i don't. mr. liebeler. mr. price does? mrs. davis. yes; he does. but i don't. it is just an old car to me. i don't know too much about cars and then the day that mr. slack came up there in a panic because someone was shooting at a target that he had paid for instead of his own, i remember that. that is the only three incidents that i remember, and that is all. mr. liebeler. the first incident was when? mrs. davis. a late customer when mr. price brought them in. mr. liebeler. the man was a late customer? mrs. davis. yes. mr. liebeler. did you see this man? mrs. davis. yes; i did, but it was dark and i didn't see his face. i just went to the window and mr. price said, "i will take him. you won't have to take him down." we always take the customer to the range and stay with them and put their target up for them because you can't let them stay down there. they are liable to shoot anything, and he took him down, and i locked up, and i left, and they were there. mr. liebeler. you are not able to identify this man if i showed you a picture of oswald or someone else? mrs. davis. i don't remember. mr. liebeler. the second incident was when mr. slack reported to you that someone was firing his target, is that correct? or was that the third incident? mrs. davis. that was the third incident. mr. liebeler. let's cover that one. mr. slack came up to the office, you say, and complained that someone was firing on his target? mrs. davis. yes. mr. liebeler. what did you do? mrs. davis. my husband went down there and asked the boys to quit firing at someone else's target, and he said something about, "boys, you must fire at your own target," or something like that. and he got it straightened out, but they left. mr. liebeler. did you see any of these men at that time? mrs. davis. no; i was in the office. i take care of that part of it. mr. liebeler. was this man with the beard there at that time, do you know? mrs. davis. no; that was on a sunday afternoon or a saturday. it was a saturday or a sunday, and the reason i remember him, it was the same day they said oswald was out there, and i tried to talk to him, which i talked to everyone that comes in, and he was noticeable because he looked like the castro type. he had this big beard and he was heavy set and big broad shoulders, and well, he was just outstanding in his appearance. he had big red earmuffs on and i couldn't help but notice him. mr. liebeler. was anyone with him? mrs. davis. i don't know because he never spoke a word. i don't know if anyone was with him or not, but he did have several guns. when i say several, i mean not one or two. it was three or four, and he paid for each rifle. mr. liebeler. but you did not see anyone with him? mrs. davis. no. mr. liebeler. that was saturday or sunday, you say? mrs. davis. it was a saturday or a sunday, and we was having turkey shoots at the time and having several people out there. mr. liebeler. that is when the man with the beard was there, is that correct? mrs. davis. yes. mr. liebeler. was that the same day that the gentleman complained about somebody firing into their target? mrs. davis. it was. it was the same day they was complaining about the two boys next to him firing into his target. mr. liebeler. we mean mr. slack, do we not? mrs. davis. mr. slack. mr. liebeler. but you yourself did not see either of these two men who were supposedly firing into mr. slack's target? mrs. davis. no. mr. liebeler. so you did not yourself personally observe any of those gentlemen or who was supposed to have been lee oswald, is that correct? mrs. davis. that's right. mr. liebeler. did you ever observe the rifle that was in the possession of this gentleman who was supposed to be oswald? mrs. davis. no; at the time i didn't know one gun from another. now i can tell you everything they bring in. mr. liebeler. do you remember whether or not on this sunday that mr. slack complained that someone was firing into his target, everybody signed into the journal? mrs. davis. not everyone, because at the time we didn't have our fences up. see, we have a fence that is all along the gun range, because there were too many getting on the range without paying. mr. liebeler. do you know whether or not the two men who were supposed to be firing into mr. slack's target signed in the journal? mrs. davis. no. mr. liebeler. you don't know one way or the other, mrs. davis? mrs. davis. i don't know, because the only reason we was having them sign in was to sign them cards to invite them to the next turkey shoot. mr. liebeler. would you have seen them at the time they signed it, necessarily, or might someone else? mrs. davis. someone might sign in for them. mr. liebeler. and you would not necessarily have observed these individuals signing in? mrs. davis. no; because the man who was outstanding, he didn't sign in. i didn't see the man until he walked through the gun range. he didn't walk through the entrance, or i would have seen him. mr. liebeler. mr. davis mentioned the names of mr. slack and mr. price, and he said that there were some others. mrs. davis. there was a doctor and his son that was out there that day. they remembered the rifle and they reported that to me before any of it came out in the paper, but i didn't get his name. but i do think that the fbi contacted this doctor. mr. liebeler. would you remember his name if i told you it was dr. wood? would that ring a bell with you? mrs. davis. no, it doesn't. it has been so long ago. mr. liebeler. now, other than this doctor and mr. slack and mr. price, do you know of anyone else who said that they thought that they saw oswald at the range? mrs. davis. not that i would take their word for it. mr. liebeler. tell us what you mean by that. you must have somebody in mind, somebody who told you these stories, and i would like to have you tell them to us if you would. mrs. davis. well, there was a mister--what is his name--camplen, charlie camplen, and he said he was out there on a wednesday. mr. liebeler. he said that oswald?---- mrs. davis. but i didn't get into any detail, so i don't know. mr. liebeler. but camplen told you he saw oswald on a wednesday? mrs. davis. yes. mr. liebeler. is there anybody else that has claimed to have seen oswald at the range? mrs. davis. no. mr. liebeler. do you know mr. james thompson? mrs. davis. yes; jim, he did say he thought he did, and i think he kind of backed off. i don't know what to believe. i just don't know. he said he wasn't going to say he did, because he couldn't swear to it. mr. liebeler. do you remember what day that he, mr. thompson, thought he might have seen oswald? mrs. davis. it was on a sunday. it was the same sunday, because he was helping run the targets down. mr. liebeler. what did thompson tell you about this? mrs. davis. he told--he didn't talk to me too much about it. in fact, he said he don't remember. he couldn't say he actually saw him. at first he did say he saw him, and he did remember the incident about the target, and slack, but he don't, he said he couldn't swear that it was oswald. and we have never discussed it further. mr. liebeler. thompson lives---- mrs. davis. he is with the bardahl co. he is a representative of bardahl. mr. liebeler. does he live in the block of gilpin street? mrs. davis. yes. mr. liebeler. is that in dallas? mrs. davis. yes. mr. liebeler. what about mr. b. g. moses, do you know him? mrs. davis. yes; he is a neighbor. he lives across the street from me. but i just don't know about him. i mean, he hasn't had too much to say about it. mr. liebeler. did he talk to you about it? mrs. davis. no; in a way, he did, and well, in a way--he didn't actually come out and say--he said, "i think i saw him." i will put it that way. he thinks. mr. liebeler. was this the same sunday that you had the incident concerning the target? mrs. davis. he worked that week, but i don't know if he was down there or not that sunday. it seems to me like he was working the trap. he was in the office, come in and out of the office, but i don't think he was on the rifle range. mr. liebeler. on the sunday we are speaking of? mrs. davis. yes. mr. liebeler. do you remember the date of this sunday? mrs. davis. no, i don't. i think it was around november, maybe the th, something like that. i wouldn't know unless i had my dates in front of me. i don't remember names or dates too well, but i remember faces. mr. liebeler. was it the weekend before the assassination? mrs. davis. oh, yes. mr. liebeler. it was the last weekend preceding the assassination? mrs. davis. yes; and we did quite a bit of advertising when we opened that range. the last week in october is when we opened the range, and we had in that month, we ran, let's see, it was and some people through there, so you know the word got around that it was a public gun range and was open. mr. liebeler. so that anybody who was interested in it would have known about it? mrs. davis. that's right. mr. liebeler. do you have any opinion as to whether or not oswald was really at the range as a result of all these discussions? mrs. davis. i really do think he was. i didn't see the man. i couldn't say one word, but i really think he was, sincerely, because the two men, especially howard price, he is the kind of person that you can believe what he says. he is intelligent. when he says he knows a rifle, he knows that rifle. he can get out there and dig out slugs, which he does, and melt them down to the lead, and he can tell you what slug is out of each gun, which i can't do. he is just a gun enthusiast and he loves it and he remembered that gun. but that is the only thing i can say. i did not see the man and i couldn't say. i mean nothing except i would take his word for it. he wouldn't be the kind, and he told us this before it all come out in the paper, and the rifle, it hadn't been identified in the paper when he identified it. but slack, i don't know too much about him. he is just a temperamental hothead. he was very hot, and they kept kicking his booth. he said they had odd shoes on and kept kicking his booth. if someone is knocking this desk, she couldn't write, and he kept knocking the side of the booth and he couldn't shoot, and that made him angry. but that is the only thing that i know. mr. liebeler. you are basing your opinion basically on the conversation you had with mr. price and your respect for mr. price's judgment? mrs. davis. that's right. mr. liebeler. did mr. price tell you, or did you learn how these men got to the rifle range? mrs. davis. no. mr. liebeler. did they walk or come in a car? mrs. davis. now, mr. price said they came in a car, this old car. i think he knows the make of it, but like i say, i didn't see him. the only thing--only time i saw a car at a late arrival was the night i was telling you about that price took him down there, but i saw the man get out, but that is all. mr. liebeler. did mr. price see these two men on the sunday before the assassination when they had the incident over the target? mrs. davis. i don't think he was down there that day. i don't remember. i don't think so. i know jim thompson was working that day and mr. moses and my husband and i, and we never have over four, so i don't think we was--i may be mistaken, he may have been there, but not working for us, because he was there every day. mr. liebeler. price was? mrs. davis. price was. mr. liebeler. can you think of anybody else who might have seen oswald at the range, or this fellow they thought was oswald, come and told you about it? mrs. davis. no, i sure can't. mr. liebeler. i don't think i have any more questions at this point. is there anything that you can think of? mrs. davis. i have thought and thought, and i would give anything if i could think of something or identify someone he was with. i think that would be more of a help to you people than anything, wouldn't it? mr. liebeler. yes, it would. mrs. davis. my husband did call in that he saw this bearded man. do you have that on your records? mr. liebeler. your husband told us. mrs. davis. he went right to the phone and called, because we were convinced. do you know anybody that was with him that day? the man may be completely innocent, but we just feel that he was with him because he was so belligerent and stood around and he wouldn't talk. you don't find people like that at a gun range. they are really friendly and they come out to shoot and have a good time, and i have never had anyone treat me like he did. mr. liebeler. this bearded man? mrs. davis. yes. mr. liebeler. did you see the rifle that the bearded man had with him? mrs. davis. he had several, yes. he had them, but i couldn't identify them. i could now. they like for you to discuss their rifles with them when they come in. they think they are important, you know. and now i can identify a rifle, but i didn't know a rifle from a shotgun, a . from a -gauge shotgun. i mean, i didn't know the difference. mr. liebeler. so you wouldn't be able to identify the rifle that the bearded man had with him if i showed you pictures of a rifle? mrs. davis. no; because like i say, at that time they were just guns. mr. liebeler. if you don't have anything else that you think would be helpful to us at this point, i will thank you for coming in and cooperating with us the way you have. i want you to know the commission appreciates it very much. mrs. davis. all right. testimony of malcolm howard price, jr. the testimony of malcolm howard price, jr., was taken at : a.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. robert t. davis, assistant attorney general of texas, was present. mr. liebeler. would you rise, sir, and raise your right hand? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. price. i do. mr. liebeler. mr. price, my name is wesley j. liebeler. i am a member of the legal staff of the president's commission investigating the assassination of president kennedy. i have been authorized to take your testimony by the commission, pursuant to authority granted to the commission by executive order no. , dated november , , and joint resolution of congress no. . i want to give to you a copy of that executive order and of that joint resolution, as well as a copy of the rules of procedure adopted by the commission governing the taking of testimony of witnesses. we want to inquire of you concerning the possibility that you saw lee harvey oswald at the sports drome rifle range, west davis, sometime in november . before we get into the details, i would like to have you state your full name for the record. mr. price. it is malcolm howard price, jr. mr. liebeler. where do you live, mr. price? mr. price. at rice, grand prairie. mr. liebeler. where were you born? mr. price. i was born at graham, tex. mr. liebeler. have you lived all your life here in texas? mr. price. no; i have lived in oklahoma for years and in california for years. mr. liebeler. how long have you lived in dallas--this last time--in grand prairie? mr. price. oh, about years. mr. liebeler. when were you born? mr. price. april , . mr. liebeler. where are you employed? mr. price. i am retired--i am unemployed. mr. liebeler. i understand that's primarily because of the fact that you have a heart condition? mr. price. yes; that's right. mr. liebeler. are you married? mr. price. yes; i am. mr. liebeler. do you have any children? mr. price. i have five. mr. liebeler. are you familiar with sports drome rifle range? mr. price. yes; very familiar with it. mr. liebeler. as a matter of fact, you work there from time to time, do you not? mr. price. i have helped them there--i'm not, as you say, employed, but i do help there from time to time. they are close friends of mine and i have helped them get the things set up and get it started. mr. liebeler. are you referring to the davises? mr. price. virginia and floyd davis. mr. liebeler. the commission has information to the effect that sometime during november , you saw a gentleman at the rifle range whom you subsequently came to believe was lee harvey oswald; is that correct? mr. price. that's right. the first time that i saw this person was in september, the last week--the last saturday of september, and that was the afternoon that they opened the rifle range. mr. liebeler. on the last saturday of september? mr. price. yes. mr. liebeler. that would be september ? mr. price. yes. mr. liebeler. tell me the circumstances under which you first saw this fellow? mr. price. well, it was just about dusky dark and he came in in an old model car, i would judge it was possibly a or model ford. mr. liebeler. was there anyone with him? mr. price. no; he was by himself, and i have heard that he couldn't drive, but he was driving that day because he was the only one in the car, and he came down and inquired if there was anyone there that could set a scope, a telescope on a rifle, and i told him that i could, and he said, well--he had one that he had had mounted and boresighted but it hadn't been fired on a range and that he would like to have it sighted in, so i went down and set up a target on a hundred yards. actually, he set the target up himself and i drove my car and turned the headlights on on the target and as i proceeded to set the rifle--i fired the rifle approximately to-- to times i would say and zeroed it in on a hundred yards and mr. davis came in from work before we left and he also drove his pickup down and turned his lights on. he drove his pickup down on the opposite side and turned his lights on the target. mr. liebeler. on the opposite side of the target from your car? mr. price. yes; and mrs. davis went home--she was tired and wasn't feeling too good and she went home as soon as he got down there. mr. liebeler. as soon as mr. davis did? mr. price. yes. mr. liebeler. did mr. davis see this fellow at that time? mr. price. well, i don't know whether he saw him or not. he apparently don't remember it. mr. liebeler. you have discussed it with mr. davis? mr. price. oh, we have talked about it some, but he doesn't--he don't even recall turning his headlights on. mr. liebeler. now, did this man fire the rifle himself? mr. price. he fired three shots after i had got it set to where i could fire a pattern, with three shots in a bull's eye. i turned it over to him and i said, "now, i'm satisfied with it, you try it." and, he fired three shots and he scored bull's eye with all three--a very tight pattern and he said, "well, i am completely satisfied." mr. liebeler. how much did you charge him for zeroing the rifle in? mr. price. i didn't charge him anything. i charged him $ for the use of the range and that was all. i just did that as a favor to floyd to help him get his business in. i figured this was just another hunter who had come down to get his rifle zeroed in for deer season. mr. liebeler. did you have any other conversation with this fellow at that time? mr. price. no, that was all. it was rather abrupt. he didn't talk too much, and i was kind of surprised that he didn't fire the rifle more. he just fired the three shots and he said, "well, that's good enough," and he got up and left. mr. liebeler. did he leave the shell casings lying there at the range or did he take them with him? mr. price. no, he took them with him--he picked them all up after the rifle was fired and took the shell casings along with him. mr. liebeler. you had an opportunity to observe the rifle, did you not? mr. price. yes, i had it in my hand. mr. liebeler. would you be able to identify the rifle? mr. price. well, i believe i would--it was a foreign make rifle and i wasn't too familiar with it at the time. mr. liebeler. did you see it again? mr. price. on two other occasions that he was there. mr. liebeler. before we go on to that, you indicated that in order to see the target you had to turn the lights of the automobile on and that of mr. davis' truck on; is that right? mr. price. yes. mr. liebeler. was it light up at the rifle range from where you fired? mr. price. oh, yes; we have neon lights there. mr. liebeler. so you didn't have any difficulty in seeing this fellow? mr. price. no--no difficulty at all. mr. liebeler. then this fellow just put the rifle in the car and drove off? mr. price. yes. mr. liebeler. did he have a gun case or anything like that? mr. price. well, if he did, he didn't bring it down to the firing house. mr. liebeler. he didn't have anything he wrapped the rifle in? mr. price. not that i know of. in fact, the best i remember, when he got out of the car, he just picked the gun up out of the back seat because it wasn't wrapped in anything or wasn't in a case. mr. liebeler. did you see this fellow again? mr. price. on two other occasions--one was weeks later and at turkey shoot. it was sunday, though, it was on a sunday. mr. liebeler. it would have been in october sometime, then, is that right? mr. price. yes, it would. mr. liebeler. the last saturday in september, which is the day you indicated was the first time you saw him was the th of september? mr. price. yes; that was the day they opened. they opened in the afternoon. mr. liebeler. and weeks later would have been the th of october, and the sunday following would be the th of october; is that right? mr. price. yes, somewhere around there. they had a turkey shoot and i went down to participate in a turkey shoot and he was sitting in booth or and was firing on a -yard line with a heavy bore rifle and i didn't talk to him then, but the third time that i saw him there i did. mr. liebeler. did you see this time in october, the day of this turkey shoot, did you see that he had the same rifle you had observed? mr. price. no, i didn't pay too much attention to that. i just saw him as he came by and he went on down to the booth. there are people that come down there and some of them have as high as six or seven different rifles. this mr. slack that you just talked to--i noticed him in particular because he had quite a variety every time he come down there--he had three or four rifles with him. mr. liebeler. there's nothing that happened on this second time that you saw that particularly stands out? mr. price. well--not that i know of personally, but i do understand there was a hassle between him and mr. slack over shooting the wrong target or something like that. i was over on the opposite end shooting at a target for the turkey shoot and i didn't pay any attention to that. that was their business. mr. liebeler. who told you that there was a hassle between this guy and slack? mr. price. it was mr. davis and mrs. davis. mr. liebeler. but you, yourself, don't remember anything that happened on this day, as far as this fellow was concerned? mr. price. no. mr. liebeler. now, going back to the first time you saw him, was there anyone there at the rifle range besides this man, mr. davis and yourself? mr. price. at the first time i saw him--me and mrs. davis was the only one there, and we were just fixing to close up and go home and he came in and, like i said, inquired if there was anybody that could set a telescope. i took him down to set his telescope and we stayed there that much longer and mr. davis came in and mrs. davis went on home. mr. liebeler. did mrs. davis have an opportunity to see this man? mr. price. not that i know of--she knew there was somebody there but she was inside the building. mr. liebeler. there was nobody else there? mr. price. there was no one else there. mr. liebeler. when was the next time you saw him, the third time? mr. price. well, i don't remember just exactly when it was, but it was--it could be anywhere from to weeks later--i don't remember exactly, but it was on a sunday, sunday was the only time i went down there after that in a good while. mr. liebeler. mr. price, this is mr. davis from the attorney general's office for the state of texas. mr. price has testified that he saw oswald out at the sports drome rifle range. mr. price. i don't remember the exact date on that, but the third time that i saw him he did have the same gun. mr. liebeler. he did? mr. price. yes. mr. liebeler. well---- mr. price. and i asked him if it was still doing the job, if it was still set, and he said, "it was shooting just fine," and mr. slack was there at the time and at this particular time--that might have been the day that they had the hassle there, i don't know, but they were sitting right next to one another--mr. slack was in booth and oswald was in booth , and he commented on his telescope. mr. liebeler. who commented on the telescope? mr. price. oswald. mr. liebeler. commented to you? mr. price. yes; he asked me to look through it, and he said, "it's one of the clearest telescopes that i have ever seen--one of the brightest." he said, "it's a japanese scope and i gave $ for it." mr. liebeler. he told you that he paid $ for it? mr. price. yes; he said that it was--he remarked that it was a -power telescope and he said it was mounted on redfield mounts. you see, they make mounts for several different guns, but i don't know one mount from another myself. i just took his word for it that it was a redfield mount, but i looked through the scope and it was very clear. it was very bright and we compared it with two scopes that mr. slack had on his gun and a fellow that was shooting on the right side in booth --i don't know who that was, but we compared it with three different american-made scopes and his telescope was brighter and clearer by far. you could read the lines and numerals on the target very plainly with it. mr. liebeler. did he tell you that he paid $ for the scope or did he say that he paid $ for the whole works? mr. price. no; he said he paid $ for the scope. mr. liebeler. did he tell you where he had it mounted? mr. price. he said that he got the thing from a gunsmith in cedar hill for a debt, the gun, and that he bought the scope and that the gunsmith mounted it for him. mr. liebeler. the same gunsmith? mr. price. yes. mr. liebeler. and that was in cedar hill? mr. price. it might be; but i don't know of any gunsmith in cedar hill. mr. liebeler. but you remember that he did tell you it was done by a gunsmith in cedar hill? mr. price. yes; then, i questioned him about it, i told him, i said, "i didn't know there was a gunsmith in cedar hill." mr. liebeler. and what did he say? mr. price. he said, "yes; one over there and he owed me some money and he gave me this gun to settle the debt" and he said, "i bought the scope and he mounted it and boresighted it." mr. liebeler. did he tell you where this gunsmith was located? mr. price. no; he didn't say anything about the location other than it was in cedar hill. mr. liebeler. did he tell you what the guy's name was? mr. price. no. mr. liebeler. was there anyone with him that day or was he by himself? mr. price. i don't know; i don't know whether he was by himself or not. mr. liebeler. you didn't see anybody else that seemed to be with him? mr. price. no; there was a lot of people there and everybody was milling around talking to everybody else and i don't know whether he was with anyone or not. mr. liebeler. now, what about the fellow that was in the booth on the other side of mr. slack, do you remember anything about him--i think you said. mr. price. all i remember about him was that he was a big fellow with a long black--it was either black or dark red beard. mr. liebeler. did you talk to him at all? mr. price. other than just to comment on his scope--i didn't have any conversation at all with him. mr. liebeler. you are talking about oswald now? mr. price. no; i'm talking about the fellow with the beard. mr. liebeler. did you look through his scope too? mr. price. yes; i did. mr. liebeler. did oswald talk to the fellow with the beard? mr. price. well, i suppose--he spoke to all of them--to oswald and slack both, about the clarity of the telescope. mr. liebeler. were you there when they were talking about the clarity of oswald's telescope? mr. price. yes. mr. liebeler. did you see this fellow that you think was oswald come or go from the range or did you just see him there then? mr. price. i just saw him there. i just saw him there a couple of times. mr. liebeler. a couple of times that day? mr. price. no; two separate times, i believe, that oswald was present at the range both times that he was, as i remember, but i don't know whether they were there together or not. mr. liebeler. we are getting our wires crossed--you're talking now about the fellow with the beard? mr. price. yes. mr. liebeler. you meant that he was there on the range a couple of different times? mr. price. yes; he was there both times that i saw oswald. mr. liebeler. that you saw oswald? mr. price. that i saw oswald; yes. the second and third time. mr. liebeler. but you never saw them come and go together? mr. price. no; i didn't pay any attention to who came--whether they came and left together or how they got there, but just that one particular time--he was the only one there. mr. liebeler. you never noticed how oswald came to the rifle range and left the range? mr. price. that's right. mr. liebeler. except that first time you saw him? mr. price. that's right. mr. liebeler. did anything else happen with relation to this fellow that you think was oswald on this third time that you saw him there at the rifle range? mr. price. no; it was just a conversation about the telescope is all. mr. liebeler. did you see the rifle closely that day--you must have handled it in looking through the scope? mr. price. oh, yes; i handled it--it was a mauser-type rifle. mr. liebeler. what do you mean by that--i don't know anything about rifles? mr. price. well, it's strictly a military rifle and it's patterned after the german mauser. mr. liebeler. a bolt-action rifle? mr. price. a bolt action, and the general outline it had--about oh, possibly a six shot clip that set just ahead of the trigger, and i understand it was a . italian, but at that time i didn't know. i thought it was a mauser because there's a friend of mine in grand prairie that has an argentine mauser that was . and it looked very familiar--they looked a whole lot alike. mr. liebeler. did you have a chance to look at any of the writing or printing that was stamped on the rifle? mr. price. well, the only thing that i could see on it--i looked for a brand name so i could see approximately where it was made, and the only thing that i could find on it was a serial number. mr. liebeler. did you look closely for a brand name? mr. price. i didn't examine it too close. mr. liebeler. but you did see the serial number? mr. price. i saw the serial number and the gun wasn't blued at the time--it had a bright finish on the barrel. it looked like it had been placed in a lathe and turned down, as far as--well, in an attempt to sporterize the gun. mr. liebeler. it had been worked on in some manner in an attempt to sporterize it? mr. price. i thought it had. mr. liebeler. how far did the barrel protrude from the stock of the rifle, how far did it stick out from the end of the stock? mr. price. possibly or inches at the most. mr. liebeler. had the stock been cut back in this attempt to sporterize the rifle? mr. price. well, not that i could tell--it was similar to a german mauser and they have, you know, they have got a full length, almost a full length stock with a wooden piece on the top of them also. mr. liebeler. and the wooden piece on top was still on this rifle--which you did see? mr. price. no; i don't believe it was. mr. liebeler. it had been taken off? mr. price. yes. mr. liebeler. it had been taken off as part of the attempt to sporterize the rifle? mr. price. yes. mr. liebeler. had the end of the barrel been cut off? mr. price. i don't know whether it had been cut off or not. mr. liebeler. you say the barrel had a shiny finish? mr. price. yes; it did at that time. mr. liebeler. i will show you two pictures that have been previously marked "exhibits and " on the deposition of mr. greener and ask you if you recognize that as the rifle that this man had at the range? mr. price. [examining instruments referred to.] except for the sling and the forepiece--i would say they are the same gun. the gun had no sling on it. it did have the mounts on the side for a sling. mr. liebeler. it didn't have a sling on it? mr. price. it didn't. mr. liebeler. what do you mean when you say the forepiece? mr. price. the forepiece is this top wooden piece; of course, that could be taken off and replaced very easily. mr. liebeler. the wooden piece that is on top of the barrel, is that what you are referring to? mr. price. yes. mr. liebeler. and you say that that was not on the rifle that you saw? mr. price. no; it wasn't. this barrel has a step along in here somewhere. mr. liebeler. a step? mr. price. a step along in here building it up to a larger diameter and another one here, which you can see. mr. liebeler. it gets larger by degrees as it comes back toward the action, is that right? mr. price. that's right, and that's the reason i thought at the time that it had been placed in a lathe and turned down, but i'm not too familiar with the foreign made guns and i have learned since then that all mauser rifles are that type--they are made that way. mr. liebeler. with these steps as they come back toward the action? mr. price. that's right. mr. liebeler. is this the same kind of scope that you saw on the rifle that oswald had, the fellow you thought was oswald? mr. price. yes; it had large receivers at both ends and i believe, now, i might not be right about the brand name, but i believe it was a tascosa, since i examined it--it was a japanese made scope. they make several different brands of those things--it could be any of them, but i believe, as i remember it--it was a tascosa. mr. liebeler. so, if you took the sling off this rifle and took the top wooden piece off the barrel, you think it would look pretty much like the one that this fellow had? mr. price. yes. mr. liebeler. now, you testified before that when you examined this rifle, you looked for the brand name and you weren't able to find a brand name? mr. price. that's right. mr. liebeler. but you did see the serial number? mr. price. the serial number was--it was in here, in here, or in here--i believe it was right along in here. mr. liebeler. and you are referring to the fore part of the action or the part of the rifle just before the action and immediately under the front edge of the scope, is that right? mr. price. yes; the largest diameter of the barrel. the clip is here. mr. liebeler. it fits in just in front of the trigger? mr. price. it fits in just in front of the trigger there. mr. liebeler. i will hand you some pictures and see if you can recognize any of the people in them as the man you saw at the rifle range--these have been previously marked "commission exhibits nos. and through ." mr. price. [examining documents referred to.] yes; this is the only one that has any similarity i can recall. mr. liebeler. you are referring to no. --does that look like him? mr. price. well, these all seem like a photograph of the same fellow, but this is the only one that has any resemblance, as i can remember. mr. liebeler. now, i show you another picture--it is a photograph of a street scene with several people in it and i show you two different pictures and ask you if you notice anybody in there as being the fellow you saw at the rifle range? mr. price. yes; this one here and this one here--he has a part of the receding hairline on the right side. mr. liebeler. which one? mr. price. this one--right here--he's got a long--kind of a sharp nose. mr. liebeler. the pictures that i have just showed you do not have any marks on them, is that right? mr. price. that's right. mr. liebeler. let me show you two other pictures which are the same as the pictures i just showed you except that they have some green marks on them. mr. price. yes. mr. liebeler. the first picture i showed you--you have indicated on it that you recognized the man who has a green mark over his head. mr. price. that's right. mr. liebeler. in the identical picture which has been marked as "pizzo exhibit no. -b," and that is the man that you saw at the rifle range? mr. price. right. mr. liebeler. on the second picture i showed you, you identified as the man you saw at the rifle range--the man who has a green "x" over him? mr. price. that's right. mr. liebeler. and that picture has been marked "pizzo exhibit no. -a." i'll show you a picture that has been marked as "pizzo exhibit no. -c," and ask you if you recognize that as the man you saw on the rifle range? mr. price. yes. mr. liebeler. do you have any questions about it at all? mr. price. about that picture? mr. liebeler. whether that's the fellow? mr. price. other than the scar or cut on his head, because he didn't have a cut on his head at the time. mr. liebeler. when did you first become aware of the fact that this fellow you saw was lee oswald, did you ever know his name? mr. price. no; i never knew his name. mr. liebeler. when did you first become aware of the fact it was oswald--when did you first think that it was oswald? mr. price. when i saw him on television when they were transferring him from the dallas jail. mr. liebeler. and did you recognize him right away as the fellow you had seen at the rifle range? mr. price. yes; and i contacted the fbi the next day. i debated on it all night whether i should call them or get mixed up with it or not. mr. liebeler. did you mention it to anyone else, when you saw him on television? mr. price. yes; my family. mr. liebeler. did you talk about it with anyone else before you told the fbi? mr. price. no. mr. liebeler. whom did you talk with at the fbi, do you remember? mr. price. charlie brown. mr. liebeler. let's see if we can establish the date of the last time that you saw this man at the rifle range. do you recall that the president was assassinated on friday, november ? can you tell us approximately how long prior to the assassination this time was that you saw the man? mr. price. the last time i saw him was a week before thanksgiving; sunday before. mr. liebeler. the sunday before thanksgiving--that's the last time you saw him at the rifle range? mr. price. that's the last time that i was down at the rifle range--the last time i went there until after, oh, a month or so after the assassination. mr. liebeler. you mean it was the sunday immediately preceding thanksgiving? mr. price. that's right; i was down there for the turkey shoot we had. mr. liebeler. you saw him at the rifle range that day? mr. price. yes. mr. liebeler. well, the last sunday before thanksgiving was after the assassination. mr. price. it was after? mr. liebeler. yes; and you saw this man at the rifle range, you saw oswald at the rifle range after the assassination? mr. price. i believe i did, because that was the last time that i went down there. mr. liebeler. and the time you saw him the last time and looked through the scope was the last time you were down at the rifle range? mr. price. yes; that was the last day i was down there. mr. liebeler. what makes you say it was the sunday preceding thanksgiving, are you sure about that? mr. price. well, i'm not exactly positive but it was getting close to thanksgiving because i was trying to get a turkey. mr. liebeler. do you remember whether you saw him after the assassination? mr. price. no. mr. liebeler. you are not sure one way or the other? mr. price. i know i haven't seen him after the assassination, but it was before this assassination--i was down there the last time and i was thinking it was a week before thanksgiving, but anyhow, it was before the assassination, the sunday before, but they were holding a turkey shoot. mr. liebeler. the sunday before the assassination would have been the th--that would have been two sundays before thanksgiving. mr. price. well, it might be right--that's been so long ago--i'm not sure about the dates, i don't remember dates too well. mr. liebeler. but you were pretty clear in your mind you didn't see oswald after the assassination? mr. price. that's right. mr. liebeler. have you ever seen him since? mr. price. i have never seen him since. i have been down there quite often since december. mr. liebeler. down at the rifle range? mr. price. yes. mr. liebeler. and business at the rifle range has fallen off since the assassination, rather sharply, hasn't it? mr. price. well, for a while it continued, but it has fallen off very sharply in the last, oh, in the last month and a half except for sundays--they do have good business on sunday. mr. liebeler. did the fbi show you any pictures of anybody and ask you to identify them when they talked to you? mr. price. it was the fbi or secret service, one of the two, i believe it was the fbi. mr. liebeler. did they show you any of the pictures that we have shown you this morning? mr. price. they have shown one similar--they had three or four photos showing this bruise and cut on the forehead. mr. liebeler. did they show you a picture of the rifle? mr. price. i believe the secret service showed me a picture of the rifle. i told them the same thing--it wasn't made up exactly the same--it didn't have the sling, it didn't have the forepiece, like there had been an attempt to sporterize the gun. mr. liebeler. the last time you saw this man at the rifle range--do you remember if there was anybody else there that you know? mr. price. garland slack. mr. liebeler. and you saw mr. slack? mr. price. yes. mr. liebeler. anybody else? mr. price. well, there was this big fellow--i don't know who he is. mr. liebeler. have you ever seen him since? mr. price. no; i haven't. i understand that mr. davis saw him one time because he called me and told me that he saw him, about weeks ago, and he turned the license number of the car over to the fbi. mr. liebeler. but you, yourself, have never seen him since? mr. price. i have never seen him since. mr. liebeler. was there anybody else that last day at the rifle range that saw this man that might be able to identify him other than mr. slack and mr. davis? mr. price. well, not that i know of. there was a lot of people there--there were or people there. there could be any number of them that could identify him, but i don't know them. mr. liebeler. can you think of anything about this subject that i haven't asked you about that you think i should have asked you about--anything you would like to add? mr. price. no; a conversation i had with him about the telescope--i forgot that. i forgot to mention that--to mr. brown when he was out, and i don't know whether i mentioned that to the secret service agent or not. it will be in his report if i did. mr. liebeler. the conversation about the clarity of the scope? mr. price. yes. he wasn't--he didn't seem to be too talkative to anyone other than when he was talking about the telescope--he seemed rather proud of that. mr. liebeler. did you ever see him talk to this big fellow other than talk to him about this telescope on this time you have told us about? mr. price. well, not that i particular remember. mr. liebeler. did you form any impression as to whether they were together or not? mr. price. no. mr. liebeler. you couldn't tell one way or the other? mr. price. no; i didn't pay any attention to it. there was--i just thought of it--there was a doctor and his son there at the same time and they were firing a . caliber winchester, i believe--it was either a winchester or a remington and anyhow, they had identical guns and they were sharpening up for, i believe, they said they were going to canada and they were there at the same time. mr. liebeler. this was the sunday, the last time you saw him? mr. price. yes. mr. liebeler. do you know their names--do you know what their names are? mr. price. no; i don't--i don't know their names--i have heard it but i don't remember it. mr. liebeler. would you remember it if i mentioned it to you? mr. price. well, i might. mr. liebeler. is the doctor's name--dr. wood? mr. price. that don't sound like it--there was a doctor there and his son--i know they were father and son. mr. liebeler. about how old was the son? mr. price. he was in his early twenties, i believe. mr. liebeler. and did they talk to this fellow about the telescope? mr. price. i don't remember whether they had any conversation with him or not. mr. liebeler. what makes you mention that? mr. price. it's just the fact that they were there at the same time and i know they were talking to garland slack and there is a possibility that they either observed or talked to oswald, because he was sitting next to slack. mr. liebeler. you have nothing else that you want to add--i don't think of any more questions. i want to thank you for coming down and cooperating with us to the extent that you have and it has been considerable cooperation because you got very short notice and you came very early this morning, and we appreciate this and we want you to know that the commission appreciates this very much. thank you. mr. price. well, i try to help all i can. i don't remember dates too well--it's been quite some time. i can remember faces but i can't remember names and dates worth a hoot. mr. liebeler. well, we sure appreciate your coming down. mr. davis. thanks again--we appreciate your coming down. mr. price. you bet. testimony of garland glenwill slack the testimony of garland glenwill slack was taken at : a.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. liebeler. would you stand up for just a moment, mr. slack. will you raise your right hand. do you swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. slack. i do. mr. liebeler. please be seated, sir. mr. slack, my name is wesley j. liebeler. i am a member of the legal staff of the president's commission investigating the assassination of president kennedy. i have been authorized to take your testimony and the testimony of other witnesses by the commission pursuant to authority granted to the commission by executive order no. , dated november , , and joint resolution of congress no. . i want to give you a copy of the joint resolution and the executive order and a copy of the rules of procedure adopted by the commission governing the taking of testimony of witnesses. actually, mr. slack, you are entitled to days' notice before you would be required to come and testify, and i realize we didn't give you that much notice but you are also entitled to waive the notice, and i assume that you will do so since you are here, and i assume that you are perfectly willing to go ahead, is that correct? mr. slack. yes. mr. liebeler. i want to ask you today about the possibility that you saw lee harvey oswald at the sports drome gun range sometime in the month of november . before we get into that, however, i would like you to state your full name for the record, if you would? mr. slack. garland glenwill slack. mr. liebeler. where do you work, sir? mr. slack. i work for myself. heating contractors and real estate development. mr. liebeler. where do you live? mr. slack. delee street. mr. liebeler. how many people do you have working with you? mr. slack. just my wife and i now. we are on a semiretired basis. we were in the water business and we sold out our water business to the city of dallas in june, and we are on a semiretired basis. mr. liebeler. in june of ? mr. slack. that's right; this last year. mr. liebeler. how old are you, mr. slack? mr. slack. fifty-nine. no; i am . i will be , the th of may. mr. liebeler. are you married, mr. slack? mr. slack. yes. mr. liebeler. do you have any children? mr. slack. two. mr. liebeler. they live here in dallas? mr. slack. no. johnny glenwill is a mechanical engineer. he is working on a government project in richmond. ind., and marylyn slack, she is the wife of an air force man, vernon stone, stationed at burke burnett. i have six grandkids. our profession, we are in the real estate business. we just sell what we own. we own half a million dollars worth of property on the--on military parkway, and the heating business, we only do what people can force us to do, our old friends' jobs that we had put in years ago. and we are on an area selling off all our land around us. we subdivide and sell off or lots, and when we get that finished, we subdivide another tract. mr. liebeler. are you familiar with the sports drome gun range, mr. slack? mr. slack. yes; quite familiar with it. mr. liebeler. do you know the man who owns it or runs it? mr. slack. yes; and i knew the man before he even took it over, the manager of the rifle range. mr. liebeler. you knew mr. davis before he took it over? mr. slack. yes; he ran a ditching machine and dug water ditches for the water works. i didn't know that until after we got real well acquainted, and i knew i had seen him, but i never could figure out until "doc" carter and charlie brown, they knew my full name and found out where i worked and who i was, and i said i knew him but where, i didn't know. mr. liebeler. were you out at the rifle range at any time in november of ? mr. slack. yes; we were there the saturday before armistice day. we marked it on our calendar. that was november the th. we were out there late in the evening and there were not very many people there, because we got there in the really closing time. but we didn't even shoot the rifle because they wanted the people to go home. but we went back sunday for this turkey shoot. mr. liebeler. what was the date? mr. slack. now that was the th. mr. liebeler. you went back to the rifle range the immediately following sunday, is that right? mr. slack. that is right, the th. oswald was there the th. he was there the th. the th was the turkey shoot. and i contacted him three or four times trying to get him to pay a dollar and get in the turkey shoot. ten men were paying a dollar a shoot, and he commented he could win the turkey but he didn't have the dollar. mr. liebeler. this was on the th, is that right? mr. slack. but had no direct contact no more than asked him like the other fellows i talked to. that was my impression of him. the next, the th, is where he and i had the run in, where he shot my target. i paid two bits and put up a target, and before i got ready to shoot it there would be somebody shoot a hole in it. so lucille, my wife, she was with me. she was keeping score. we got to noticing who it was, and maybe he would shoot anybody's target, and i raised the devil. i didn't see why i have to pay my two bits and pay for a new target sheet and i'm shooting no. , and the rifle range operator came and told him not to shoot my target after that, and that is how i remember the part in his hair and the look on his face. and i told him, i said, "you are not going to win no turkey shooting rapid fire." he shot rapid fire about three or four times, and they had a cap full of shells and they were shooting--i mean he was burning up the ammunition. and i talked about that going back to snug harbor, because somebody is going to get hurt, because everybody shooting everybody's target. and there was a bunch of ruffians shooting pistols, and there was lots of people. and i remember when i told him that, he give me a look that i never would forget it. that is the only reason i remember him when they showed him on television. it made me sick and i tried to figure out. it took me a day to figure out where i had seen him. i said, lucille, we own the waterworks and we know a lot of men and do a lot of things. we have a fish hatchery and we contacted maybe five or six people we don't know every day, and i didn't sleep at night for nights until i pinned down where we saw him. and i went to the rifle range and these four or five other people knew he had been there, but they were afraid to say anything about it. but when i asked the manager, i said, "oswald was over here," and he said, "yes, i know he was." and they were afraid it would hurt their business. and i told charlie brown and doc carter where i saw the fellow, and i think it was; everyone doubts if they knew anything at all on him, so they met me over there and between the three, they admitted sure. mr. liebeler. who is this charlie brown that you referred to? mr. slack. he is the fbi man. he and doc carter, they came out two different times and i talked to them. mr. liebeler. carter is also an fbi agent? mr. slack. one was secret service and one was the fbi. mr. liebeler. you mentioned there were other people out at the range who saw oswald. do you remember their names? mr. slack. no, sir; because i was not taking their names. but i do know that they got the boy that worked on his rifle scope on wednesday. that was in the middle of the week, between the th and the th. they got his deposition, because the boy, i know, put his scope on his rifle for him. mr. liebeler. do you know the boy's name? mr. slack. no, sir; i don't know his name. never tried to find out his name. i never talked about it, because charlie brown and doc carter asked me not to tell what i knew, and that is all. i had nothing to gain. in other words, they took it up, what they found, i never knew. mr. liebeler. when you mentioned this fellow that put the scope on the rifle, how do you know? tell us what you know about that? mr. slack. because i read it in the paper about a week afterwards. mr. liebeler. you have no direct knowledge yourself about the scope? mr. slack. no; there were so many different fellows working on the rifle range, there was possibly three or four boys who did it, and i never really connected which one it would be, because i wasn't doing any investigating anyway. see what i mean? i felt like that knowing the guy and connecting it together, if i just kept my mouth shut and tried to just remember seeing the fellow, there was a lot of that done. it was done in our own family. in other words, vernon stone was with me and jimbo, he is years old, the boy, and when it dawned on me where i saw him and i knew that i had my son-in-law take my gun, my custom-made gun out of oswald's, take it out of his hand and put it in the car, because i was afraid he would steal it, and i told vernon by long distance on the telephone, and vernon did too, and well, he already had made up in his mind that he never had seen that fellow. he didn't remember anything, and jimbo doesn't either. he didn't want to remember. mr. liebeler. what is the incident about the rifle? did oswald have your rifle at any time? mr. slack. he handled my rifle and he handled my targets, that was the th. mr. liebeler. did you say anything to oswald other than---- mr. slack. the only time--i didn't specifically say to oswald. i said to all the boys, to seven or eight shooters, about that rapid firing and about shooting other targets rather than the one they bought and paid for. if they were in chair , and there was a number down a yards, no. , he was supposed to shoot no. . mr. liebeler. other than that, you didn't say anything to him? mr. slack. that is all i said. mr. liebeler. did you have a chance to see the rifle that he had? mr. slack. i absolutely saw the rifle. mr. liebeler. what kind of rifle was it? mr. slack. it was an italian type rifle, but it never showed in the newspapers, a picture of that rifle. in other words, if the first picture that came out of the officer holding the rifle, that was on the floor of the book depository, if that was the gun, i had never seen that gun before, and i know rifles and i know scopes. mr. liebeler. what was the difference between it and the rifle you saw? mr. slack. the one he had was a small three-quarters, about seven hundred fifty thousandths diameter tube, a small tube no bigger than your thumb, with the windage gage. they were practicing. it was a cheap scope. well, $ . scope. but it was sporterized. you cut the wood off of them. short barrel. mr. liebeler. in other words, this rifle that oswald had was a sporterized rifle? it had been rebuilt? mr. slack. just as advertised. i have seen besides the oswald, i have friends that have those rifles. i wouldn't shoot a toad frog with one of them, because i know that they are just junk. in other words, you take that rifle as it was manufactured, and you cut the barrel off inches, and you take all the wood off the top of the barrel and cut this off here, and varnish it, and have it blued, and it makes a pretty little gun. it was one that he had wrapped up and handed over the fence, but they had two other guns that type. they had no scopes on them. mr. liebeler. was there somebody else? mr. slack. that sunday there sure was. the tall boy had the biggest feet of any kid i ever saw, and about the time he would go to shoot, he would kick with his feet, and i said if my feet was that big i would bump somebody too. he was the boy that drove him to that rifle range the th. they found the boy. he had no connection with him except he had driven him there. mr. liebeler. how do you know they found him? mr. slack. i read it in the paper. i don't know what his name was. don't know where they found him, but they found him, and he had no connection with him, no more than i had. he just probably begged a ride and he took him to the rifle range, but they had three guns. lucille remembers the boy handing the guns over the fence, and they were throwing the guns in the back of the old model car and taking off like they did. and i recognized that because a gun, a good gun, you are not supposed--they just threw those old guns in that car, or they took two of them. of course, one was wrapped up in a blanket, a dirty looking old grey blanket that had a red trim, i remember. i remember that, because we found an old blanket at our house and i told lucille i was trying to think, i knew it was something common, this good gun, it was wrapped up and tied up. the sporterized italian gun was tied up and he handed it over the fence nicely. and he had a grey and red maroon, looked slick as satin, and i remember it well, what a gun case--you see everything at a shooting place--some bring a rifle in a tote sack and--for a gun case. the other thing i remember about that blanket he had wrapped around his gun, it was tied up with a rag string that was torn about an inch and a half wide out of a filling station type wipe cloth, a ribbon, pink, and he had torn it up and--to use as a rag string. mr. liebeler. do you remember what kind of car these fellows drove? mr. slack. no; i couldn't remember it, and lucille couldn't except it was an older model car. mr. liebeler. was it a sedan? mr. slack. a four-door sedan, and it was a dark color, and he left there like a crazy bunch of hoodlums. and lucille would remember that because she made a remark to me. you know how boys take off and make the dust fly. well we had--in other words, without having some reason, you wouldn't notice what kind of car it was. mr. liebeler. i want to show you a picture of a rifle. two pictures that have previously been marked as exhibits and , on the deposition of mr. greener, and ask you if that looks like the rifle they had at the rifle range? mr. slack. i don't remember a carrying strap on it, this rifle here. of course, that is something you use to carry the gun, if you take it. that could be it, that is right, with the sling off. when i saw the gun the sling was not on it. i don't think it had the wood up above the barrel, because when it is sporterized, as i remember, the whole barrel is painted blue. mr. liebeler. so there was not as much wood to the front of the rifle on the one you saw at the range, is that right? mr. slack. that's right. mr. liebeler. what about the scope? was it the same kind of scope? mr. slack. i can say no. pictures do something to you, but that scope seems like it is a -inch, that scope, according to the size of the gun and proportions of sizes. this is the same gun upside down, the other side. mr. liebeler. well, you are pretty clear this isn't the rifle because of the wood that protrudes? mr. slack. this rifle had the barrel cut off. i know this rifle right here. this is proportionately, mr. liebeler---- mr. liebeler. pardon? mr. slack. no; the sight is, the open sight is out on it since it has been cut off. mr. liebeler. the one that you saw at the rifle range had been cut off, is that correct? mr. slack. it had been cut off, and i will swear it had been reblued, and it did not have the front ramp sight of that rifle. mr. liebeler. so that the rifle you saw at the rifle range is not the same rifle as the picture i have just shown you, is that right? mr. slack. now they had two other rifles that would fit that. they were not sporterized. mr. liebeler. but they didn't have scopes on them? mr. slack. they didn't have scopes on them. mr. liebeler. but you remember that the rifle you saw at the range did have the barrel cut off and didn't have the sight on the front so it couldn't have been this rifle? mr. slack. i would say that. i would say that is not it, because the sporterized rifle, the shiny new one, i don't think it had the metal binding on it. the top wood, so this holds the top wood. now, that is the type of rifle, see what i mean. but i really notice things about rifles like a jewelry man or a lady would about the setting of a ring. i wouldn't know--but i know rifles. mr. liebeler. but this was the same general type of rifle as the one you saw that had been sporterized and had the wood cut off? mr. slack. this is a magazine. you recognize one of them a mile off. mr. liebeler. let me show you some pictures of a man or some men that have been previously marked commission exhibits and through . i want to ask you if this looks like either one of the men that you saw at the rifle range on the th of november? mr. slack. the jacket was the first thing i remembered. when they described the jacket in the paper before i even looked at the fellow, because the man pulled a jacket off and put it on top of a load of sand you used it for a pad to shoot from---- mr. liebeler. is that the guy you saw? does anyone in those pictures look like him? mr. slack. those heavy eyebrows and that part in the hair, but apparently he had more hair. maybe he got a haircut afterwards. mr. liebeler. who had more hair, the fellow? mr. slack. the picture. the man i saw in this picture right here. mr. liebeler. the man you saw had more hair? mr. slack. yes; he sure did. mr. liebeler. do you think that any of these pictures are a picture of the man that you saw at the rifle range that day? mr. slack. the difference in position he was in and everything, that looked like him, but he wasn't that sleepy-eyed. he was a cocky guy. mr. liebeler. referring to exhibit ? mr. slack. when he looked at me. i don't see how in the world he could ever get a pleasant look on his face like this picture here. probably he could, but---- mr. liebeler. you think that the picture looks a little more pleasant than the fellow you remember seeing at the rifle range, is that right? mr. slack. he sure does. mr. liebeler. let me show you another picture, mr. slack, that has been previously marked as pizzo's -c, and ask you if that looks like the fellow you saw at the rifle range? mr. slack. that is him. i would know that baby face and that chin, and he had a--i remember people, but no names. mr. liebeler. what about the hair? mr. slack. that is the man i saw at the rifle range. mr. liebeler. you are sure about that? mr. slack. i know it is. in other words, just like if i saw you tomorrow. because his eyes were deep like a man that was, that wears highly magnified glasses and then doesn't have his glasses on. and he had that deep--that is the man we saw out there. that is the man. and i would remember him years from now, just over that one incident. mr. liebeler. have you seen that guy's picture in the paper? mr. slack. but he don't have a good--he didn't have a very good likeness of him, like the paper pictures. that was him as i saw him at the rifle range, and as i saw him i second before. no, one-tenth of a second before he was shot. that is the time. mr. liebeler. you mean on television? mr. slack. on television. and i saw when they were transferring him even before that. and i told lucille, i told my wife, wait a minute, i've got to see the side of his face. mr. liebeler. could you recognize the side of his face? mr. slack. but not positive enough until i got to see him at the time he was shot. you see, you read the papers and you get to where you imagine things and you find yourself imagining that you saw somebody, and i never had anything that made me as sick for days. absolutely made me sick of stretching my brain of trying to figure out what contact we had had with the guy. mr. liebeler. here is another picture. take a look at that and see if you can recognize anybody in that picture? mr. slack. the fifth fellow from the left, because i saw the side of his face quite a bit at the rifle range. he has rather a long nose and long chin and a high forehead. in other words, that was the thing about the man that i would remember. mr. liebeler. here is another picture. it is the same picture that i just showed you except that it has a green line over the fellow that you have indicated, does it not? mr. slack. well, it is like this picture. those are the front, no, he doesn't have a part. he didn't have that hair. i would remember his hair. and he had the hair that grew down his neck, all the way down into his jacket. mr. liebeler. you say this fellow here in the picture, the fifth fellow from the left is not the person? mr. slack. that is the fellow. as i remember, this is the fellow that is under the green mark. but seemed like he had more hair. you see, i shot in one chair. i looked at the side of that fellow quite a bit. mr. liebeler. you think the fellow you saw at the rifle range had more hair than the fellow with the green mark? mr. slack. yes; of course, the wind blew and he was bareheaded. i guess he had a haircut in this picture here. he had quite a bit of hair on his back and on his neck like me. i need a haircut. but i remember, because on the television the hair was also down on his neck. even more so than he shows in the picture there. probably taken at different times and under different conditions. just like this picture here, he is a pleasant looking fellow. mr. liebeler. this fellow looks more pleasant than the guy you saw? mr. slack. yes; of course, at times, a fellow can be sorry on the world and still there would be a little fun come into him sometime. and he had big ears. his ears stood out, what i mean. mr. liebeler. the picture that you are looking at is -b, pizzo's exhibit, that we have been referring to. i don't think i have any more questions, mr. slack. i want to thank you very much for coming in and cooperating with us the way you have. i know we gave you very little time and we appreciate it very much. mr. slack. we had already forgotten everything about it, and we figured it was, well, it was just some unpleasant memory, and it couldn't have shocked me. now this newspaper, gruber, was a press, a washington pressman, was he some of your bunch? mr. liebeler. what was his name? mr. slack. gruber. mr. liebeler. what about him? mr. slack. he is the fellow that came to see me about weeks ago. he called me three or four times and give me a lot of trouble, and i give him to understand that i didn't want to talk with him, because the newspaper had, i thought, made too big a show out of it. and they used my name and used my address. they didn't put my picture, with the assassination, or the picture, but i expected it any time to come out, but i have a good friend with the times herald, mr. albert jackson, and i called albert and i told him not to send his men because i was not talking to the newspaper. my phone was tapped and they came out the next day and everything that i told albert, the newspaperman, and i told him that, because i didn't want it to get in the paper. he never put it in their paper. my own friend never got anything, but the news, they got it all. mr. liebeler. what made you think your telephone was tapped? mr. slack. i think it was because they had things in the paper. mr. liebeler. who do you think tapped it, the newspaper people? mr. slack. the fbi and the secret service, they didn't tap it. they don't do things like that. mr. liebeler. the secret service doesn't? mr. slack. no. mr. liebeler. what about the fbi? mr. slack. they said they did not, and i blamed it on the newspaper. and they came and made a television picture of me and gave me an interview. and i wanted to know what identification they had and who they were with, and they fooled around and made about a -minute conversation and they never did show it, but it never was shown anyplace. just newshounds. and they put up a big front that it was the warren commission. mr. liebeler. who were they? mr. slack. the television guys from fort worth, and they were in such a big hurry to leave, they just took my picture and took off. they had minutes to get to fort worth, and i never heard any more of it at all. mr. liebeler. i don't think they had anything to do with the warren commission. testimony of dr. homer wood the testimony of dr. homer wood was taken at p.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. liebeler. dr. wood, would you please rise and raise your right hand. do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? dr. wood. i do. mr. liebeler. please be seated. my name is wesley j. liebeler. i am a member of the legal staff of the president's commission investigating the assassination of president kennedy. i have been authorized to take your testimony by the commission pursuant to authority granted to it by executive order no. , dated november , , and joint resolution of congress no. . i understand that mr. rankin wrote to you last week. did you get a letter from him? dr. wood. we each had an airmail letter from washington, yes. mr. liebeler. i understand that mr. rankin included a copy of the executive order to which i have first referred as well as a copy of the joint resolution of congress and the rules of procedure relating to the taking of testimony by the commission, is that correct? dr. wood. that is correct. mr. liebeler. we want to question you about the possibility that lee harvey oswald was at the sports drome rifle range at west davis street in dallas, tex., sometime during november --before going into the details of that particular incident, please state your full name for the record. dr. wood. homer wood. mr. liebeler. you are a dentist, is that correct? dr. wood. that is correct. mr. liebeler. would you state briefly for us your educational background. dr. wood. well, i had years of predental at southern methodist university and years at baylor university college of dentistry, dallas, tex. mr. liebeler. are you a native texan? dr. wood. i am a native texan, yes. mr. liebeler. born here in dallas? dr. wood. born in besse may, tex. it is a dead town now. mr. liebeler. when were you born? dr. wood. july , . mr. liebeler. how long have you been practicing dentistry? dr. wood. since . mr. liebeler. the commission is advised that sometime during november of , you and your son, whose name i understand is sterling charles wood, went to the sports drome rifle range, is that correct? dr. wood. that is correct. if i recall correctly, it was on november . that was a saturday afternoon. mr. liebeler. are you clear in your own mind that it was a saturday that you went to the range? dr. wood. yes. mr. liebeler. was that the only time that you went to the rifle range during november? dr. wood. that is correct. mr. liebeler. what time of day did you go out there? dr. wood. i was listening to the southwest conference football game. my boy kept asking me to "hurry, daddy, i want to go to try my scope out on my gun," and i listened to half of the game. i presume when we got out there it was around o'clock in the afternoon. at the rifle range, i am not definite, but it was between and . we left before . mr. liebeler. left the range before ? dr. wood. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. did you get an opportunity to finish listening to the game? dr. wood. no; we didn't hear any more of the game. mr. liebeler. tell us what happened after you arrived at the range? dr. wood. well, the range was pretty busy because it was just before deer season and most of the fellows out there was sighting in their scope, and we waited a short while to get a place for my boy to sit down to sight in his scope. then when he did--now do you want me to start here with oswald? mr. liebeler. i want you tell me just what happened. dr. wood. okay. my boy was shooting his rifle, and there was a fellow sitting to his right. i thought it was an offbrand gun. it wasn't shooting like the other rifles there. when he would fire the rifle, at the end of the barrel there would be a ball of fire coming out at the end of the barrel, and that is what attracted my attention to this fellow. when i said to my son, i said, "son, be careful, i am afraid that gun is going to blow up." and i was kind of laughing and joking around with the other fellow that was waiting in--waiting to sight in their scope and i would hand him cotton and i would say, "get ready, this fellow is getting ready to shoot this howitzer." and i said to my son, step back, or lean over, or be careful, and he said, "daddy, that is all right, it is an italian carbine." so they fired several rounds, and after they would fire three or four rounds, then the keeper out there would say let's go look at our targets, and we would go down and i would look at my boy's target and he wasn't doing so good, but the second round we went down there and we noticed this fellow's target to our right, and my boy made a statement, "daddy, this fellow is not having much trouble." so i did notice his target, and most of his shots was within the target, but there were a few that was outside the target, from an inch to inches outside of it. mr. liebeler. outside the bulls-eye? dr. wood. bulls-eye. and that is as far as--do you want me to get into the oswald deal now, or you just want me to go on and tell what he did, or are you going to ask me some questions? mr. liebeler. i want to ask you first of all, did you talk to this fellow at all? dr. wood. i didn't say a word to him, but my son did. mr. liebeler. did your son tell you at that time what he had said to the fellow? dr. wood. he didn't tell me at that time, no, sir. he told me later on. mr. liebeler. he told you after the assassination, is that correct? dr. wood. yes; after the assassination he told me that. yes, sir; that is true. mr. liebeler. he told you what he said to the fellow after the assassination. now you mentioned previously that when you warned your son to be careful of that rifle because of your fear that it would blow up and that your son had told you, don't worry, it is an italian carbine, is that correct? dr. wood. well---- mr. liebeler. and that is substantially what he had mentioned to you at the range, that it was italian? dr. wood. yes. mr. liebeler. do you know whether or not your son spoke to this man before he told you it was an italian carbine, or not? dr. wood. i feel sure he did not speak to the man before. mr. liebeler. your son's statement was based only on his observation of the rifle, is that correct? dr. wood. on his observation of the rifle and what he knows about guns, which is quite a bit. he studies about guns a lot. mr. liebeler. do you think your son would be qualified to make a statement in this regard? dr. wood. i feel sure more so than i am. i know very little about guns, but he knows quite a bit. mr. liebeler. did you observe this fellow leave the rifle range before you? dr. wood. i did not, but i didn't notice when the change was made, but my son said he did. he noticed that the fellow came there after my boy had sat down and this fellow had left before my boy had finished. the reason for that was, that my boy was having some trouble sighting in his scope, and he asked the keeper to help him. this fellow was there less than most of the fellows that was out there. mr. liebeler. do you remember the name of the keeper? dr. wood. i do not. he was a tall fellow; all i know. mr. liebeler. slender? dr. wood. slender, yes. mr. liebeler. do you know mr. floyd davis? dr. wood. no, sir; he might have been the fellow that was helping my son, i don't know. but i recognized his picture later in the paper when it came out, and--that this fellow was there practicing, and i recognized the fellow as the fellow that helped my son. mr. liebeler. helped your son sight in his scope? dr. wood. helped my son sight in his scope, and i don't know who owned the range. i have no idea. mr. liebeler. did there come a time subsequent to that that you were able to identify this man that you had seen there as lee harvey oswald? dr. wood. would you repeat that? mr. liebeler. after you saw this man, you left the rifle range. then later on the next friday the president was assassinated, and at sometime subsequent to that time, did you connect up lee harvey oswald with this man that you saw at the rifle range? dr. wood. i did. mr. liebeler. tell me when and how you did that? dr. wood. i saw him flashed on the television screen at home several times. they would interrogate him and bring him down the hall and bring him back to his cell. this particular time i mentioned to my wife, i said to her, "honey, that looks exactly like the fellow that was sitting next to sterling at the rifle range. but i am not going to say anything to sterling because i want to see if he recognizes him and if he thinks it was." well, i would say within minutes or an hour he was flashed back on the screen and he said to me, "daddy, that is the fellow that was sitting next to me out on the rifle range." mr. liebeler. so that you, independently of your son, first noticed the resemblance between oswald---- dr. wood. and mentioned it to my wife. mr. liebeler. and sterling was not in your presence at at time? dr. wood. no, sir; he was not in the room. mr. liebeler. then later he came into the room, saw oswald's picture on the television, and said to you that that was the guy that was out at the rifle range that previous saturday, is that correct? dr. wood. yes. mr. liebeler. you did not mention to sterling in any way the resemblance between oswald and the fellow at the rifle range prior to the time he mentioned it himself? dr. wood. no. they mentioned on the newscast that he was an ex-marine. well, i figured an ex-marine would be a husky sort of fellow, and i kept watching him, and he didn't look like a marine to me. but he was a marine but he didn't seem to me to have the build. he looked to me as a fairly frail man, not too strong, and that is the reason i wasn't thinking too much about it until he was flashed on the screen and then his profile just came to me that that was the man that was out at the rifle range. mr. liebeler. what did you do then after you had had this conversation and sterling's observation? dr. wood. i said i think i should report that to either the dallas police or fbi. mr. liebeler. did you do so? dr. wood. i did not until the following monday. on sunday, the next morning--this was saturday night--on sunday morning we went to church and my wife said after church, let's go down and look at the place where the president was assassinated. we haven't been down, so we went down there and we looked over the area and we walked back to our car, and i would say it was between and o'clock, and i turned on the radio in the car and it said oswald had been shot. so i said to my wife, well, i don't know whether it will do any good now to turn it in or not, and i didn't turn it in. but later on, on monday i had a fellow in my office who works for the state comptroller's office and told him about this incident and he said, "dr. wood, i certainly would turn it in. anything that you could do will help." so after he left the office, i called the fbi and told them i thought i had some information that might be of importance to them concerning the oswald case, and they talked to me, and this was on monday. and i told them i was leaving town. i think i told them, i am not positive, but we went out, me and my wife and son went out to uvalde deer hunting, and while we were out there--this was on, we went out tuesday, and we were there wednesday night, and will fritz of the dallas police force called me and questioned me about my son and me and were we sure, and i said we were fairly sure that it was, and he wanted to know when we were coming back, and i said that me and my wife were thinking about going to mexico so it will be sunday before we return. and he said, when you return would you please call me. well, that was on the following monday, and i called will fritz and he had two men from homicide come out and talk to me. and on my lunch hour, two fbi agents came out and talked with me. mr. liebeler. was this on monday, too? dr. wood. it was on monday. i believe. i am fairly sure it was on monday because i called as soon as i came back, and i recall that when i called, there was the homicide, two officers from will fritz' office came, and as well as i remember, they called my office girl, the fbi called my office girl and asked could they come out to see me, and they came out around my lunch hour, and i talked to the fbi at that time. mr. liebeler. do you remember the names of the agents that spoke to you? dr. wood. i don't remember the agents, sure don't. mr. liebeler. did you observe the rifle that this fellow was firing closely enough so that you could be able to identify it? dr. wood. i don't think i could identify it. mr. liebeler. did the fbi or the dallas police show you any pictures of oswald when they interviewed you? dr. wood. both the dallas police and the fbi, i think, showed me the same photograph that each showed me as they came out. mr. liebeler. and you identified that man in that photograph as the fellow you had seen at the rifle range? dr. wood. i put it in this category that i couldn't be absolutely positive, but in my mind i was positive that it was oswald that i saw out at the rifle range. mr. liebeler. they showed pictures also to your son, did they not? dr. wood. he said they did; yes, sir. mr. liebeler. you weren't there when they did? dr. wood. they interviewed my son at school. the secret service came out to his school, i think, a couple of times to see him, and an officer from will fritz' office came out once or twice to school to see him, and the fbi came out, i think, at the house on two occasions just before i got off from the office, and i never was there when my son saw either of them. mr. liebeler. do you know that the fbi subsequently showed your son a picture of the rifle used to assassinate the president? dr. wood. i knew this. mr. liebeler. were you aware of the fact that your son indicated that the picture that the fbi showed them was not the same rifle that was in possession of this man at the rifle range? dr. wood. i am not aware of that. i am aware of the fact that he--he thinks he said that the rifle they first showed him was the rifle, but the scope was not the same scope that he showed them. i think that is what my boy said. i don't know for sure whether they showed him two different pictures or not, but one time they came out, the fbi come and stayed a very short while and said is this the scope. that is the way i understood my wife to say, and my boy said no, that is not the scope. mr. liebeler. i want to show you some pictures that have previously been marked as commission exhibits and through , and ask you if any of the pictures i show you resemble the men who you saw at the rifle range? dr. wood. i pick out someone nearest resembling--is that what you are asking me? or is the likeness of either of these to him? mr. liebeler. yes, is this the fellow you saw at the rifle range, do you think? are any of these pictures of the man you saw at the rifle range? dr. wood. may i ask this, that the profile that i got of the man, as i told the fbi, was not a profile like this. it was a lateral side profile, because i was facing in this angle, and i said i could only describe him from a lateral view and from the shoulder up, even though i walked down to the rifle range to the target with him. i did not pay a bit of attention to him. mr. liebeler. so would the picture here, commission exhibit , be a lateral view of the type you describe. dr. wood. no, sir. mr. liebeler. that is too much from the front? dr. wood. well, now, that is a right lateral view. i assume his was a left lateral view. but still i would say that wasn't. mr. liebeler. you would say what? dr. wood. that was not the man that i saw. mr. liebeler. that was not the man you saw? dr. wood. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. i show you a photograph that has been previously marked as pizzo exhibit -a and ask you if you recognize any of the individuals in that photograph as the man you saw in the rifle range? dr. wood. yes. the man holding the paper facing me with a green mark above his head. mr. liebeler. with the green mark, with two marks above him? there are two different marks and you indicated the---- dr. wood. the green marking above this fellow right here [pointing]. mr. liebeler. that has an "x"-shaped mark. dr. wood. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. i show you another picture which has been marked pizzo exhibit -b, and ask you if any of the individuals there appear to be the same as the man you saw at the rifle range? dr. wood. yes. the man with one green marking above the top of his head is the--i would identify as the man. mr. liebeler. i show you another picture that has been marked as pizzo exhibit -c, and ask you if you recognize that individual as the man you saw at the rifle range? dr. wood. i do. mr. liebeler. do you have any doubt about it? dr. wood. in my mind there is no doubt. if i just had to swear on a bible, i couldn't, but in my mind, it is him. mr. liebeler. well, of course, you realize that you are testifying under oath. dr. wood. i know he is a dead man and all that, but i must say in my own mind it is him, i am positive. mr. liebeler. now i show you two pictures which have been marked exhibits and , on the deposition of mr. greener, and ask you if you recognize either of those pictures as the rifle in the possession of the man at the range? dr. wood. i didn't observe the rifle close enough to say either one of these was or wasn't. i only observed the way the rifle was fired, so i couldn't identify either one as being the rifle that assassinated, or the man that was shooting out at the rifle range. mr. liebeler. you are unable to identify that as being the rifle either one way or the other? dr. wood. yes. mr. liebeler. do you know of anybody else that was at the range when you observed this fellow who also observed him? dr. wood. yes. i told the fbi of kenney longley. dr. longley's son, a dental surgeon, a friend of mine, was talking to me at the time they were shooting. he was getting ready to take over one of the booths, and i understand that later the fbi went out to interview him. and he had two friends with him. they interviewed them too, but i have forgotten their names. mr. liebeler. did they observe this individual also? dr. wood. other than what i have said, the conversation that i was concerned about, and i handed them each cotton to put in their ears when he fired this rifle, and i don't know how much observation they made of the man. mr. liebeler. have you discussed with them the question of whether or not this man was lee harvey oswald? dr. wood. i haven't seen--i will retract that statement. i had seen dr. longley's son. he had a front tooth knocked out and dr. longley brought him over to my office, but nothing was mentioned about oswald or this man at the rifle range. mr. liebeler. longley and those two friends are the only two men that you know of that were also at the range at that time? dr. wood. the only people i know. i couldn't identify another soul that was out there. mr. liebeler. you haven't discussed this either with longley or his two friends? dr. wood. no, sir. mr. liebeler. i don't think i have any more questions at this point. if you can think of anything else that you think ought to be on the record about this matter, i want you to feel free to go right ahead and say it. we want to get everything that you know about this. dr. wood. you mean help you out in the case or any feelings in the case? mr. liebeler. no; on the question of whether this was oswald out there at the rifle range, or anything else, if you know any other facts about the case, we want to know those, too. dr. wood. i have elaborated pretty much to you about what i saw. i was a great admirer of the president and i felt that if there was anything i could do to help clarify or clear up the case, i was willing to do it, and that is why i reported. mr. liebeler. on behalf of the commission i want to thank you very much for the cooperation you have shown us, dr. wood. thank you, sir. testimony of sterling charles wood the testimony of sterling charles wood was taken at : p.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. liebeler. would you stand up, sterling, and raise your right hand? do you swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. wood. i do. mr. liebeler. please sit down. sterling, my name is wesley j. liebeler. mr. wood. glad to meet you. mr. liebeler. i am a member of the legal staff of the president's commission investigating the assassination of president kennedy. i have been authorized to take testimony from witnesses such as you by the commission, pursuant to provisions of executive order , dated november , , and joint resolution of congress no. . i believe that mr. rankin sent a letter to you and to your father last week, and that he enclosed copies of those two documents along with a copy of the rules governing the taking of testimony by the commission or staff members. do you remember getting that letter? mr. wood. yes, sir; but i didn't read those rules. mr. liebeler. that is all right. your father got them and you have them still in your possession? mr. wood. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. would you state your name for the record? mr. wood. sterling charles wood. mr. liebeler. how old are you? mr. wood. thirteen. mr. liebeler. do you go to school? mr. wood. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. where do you go to school? mr. wood. boude storey junior high. mr. liebeler. where do you live? mr. wood. alaska street. mr. liebeler. the commission has been advised that you and your father went out to the sports drome gun range on west davis at about west davis sometime in november, is that correct? mr. wood. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. can you tell us the date that you went out there? mr. wood. it was the saturday before. it was days before the president was killed. it was a saturday. mr. liebeler. the saturday before he was assassinated? mr. wood. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. who all went out to the range, just you and your father? mr. wood. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. can you tell me about what time you got out there? mr. wood. i would say it was about : , right after my daddy was off from work. mr. liebeler. how long did you stay out there? mr. wood. about an hour. mr. liebeler. you went out there to sight your rifle in for deer hunting? mr. wood. yes. mr. liebeler. did you go deer hunting? mr. wood. yes. mr. liebeler. did you get a deer? mr. wood. no, sir; saw one. mr. liebeler. did you get a shot at it? mr. wood. yes; i think i hit him and he jumped the fence. mr. liebeler. now i understand that you and your father saw a man out there firing in the booth next to you? mr. wood. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. can you tell us what happened right there at the rifle range that day? mr. wood. yes, sir; i came out there. i had been shooting for about or minutes and he came up next to me and started shooting, and he only shot about or times and i noticed every time he got through shooting he would take the breech and open it up and put the shell in his pocket. we went down to check our target and i remembered that his was almost always in the bull's-eye. and as we came back to shoot again, i talked to him and i said, "sir, is that a . italian carbine?" and he said, "yes, sir." mr. liebeler. why did you ask him that question? mr. wood. because i read gun books and i was pretty sure that was a . italian carbine and i wanted to make sure. mr. liebeler. have you told your father about this, that that was an italian carbine? mr. wood. yes. mr. liebeler. how did you express it? mr. wood. i said, "daddy, it looks like a . italian carbine," and i asked him if it was a four-power scope, because it was funny looking, it wasn't american, and he said, "yes, it was." mr. liebeler. had you talked to your father about this fellow or this rifle before you talked to this guy? mr. wood. i think i said that it looked like an italian make gun, to me. mr. liebeler. you said that to your father? mr. wood. yes. mr. liebeler. can you remember why you mentioned that particular gun to your father? mr. wood. well, call it an army rifle. mr. liebeler. how could you tell that? mr. wood. well, you can tell it had been scratched up and it was a surplus gun. it was probably--you can tell it was probably used in the war. mr. liebeler. was there anything else peculiar about this rifle that made you mention it to your father? mr. wood. it had a sawed-off barrel, shorter barrel than most rifles were. mr. liebeler. how long did the barrel of the rifle stick out? mr. wood. about that far out of the stock. mr. liebeler. would you say that was about or inches? mr. wood. yes. mr. liebeler. you say that the barrel was sawed off? mr. wood. you could tell it was shorter than most military rifles, and everytime he shot, a spit of fire would come out and i could feel the heat when he shot every time. mr. liebeler. what kind of a rifle do you have, sterling? mr. wood. winchester - . mr. liebeler. do you know about how long it is? mr. wood. no, sir; i wouldn't have any idea. it is a shorter rifle than most of them, which is - . mr. liebeler. do you know how long a yardstick is? can you visualize that in your mind? mr. wood. yes. mr. liebeler. is your rifle longer or shorter than a yardstick? mr. wood. it is about, i would say it was shorter than a yardstick, yes. mr. liebeler. what about the rifle that this fellow had, was it longer or shorter? mr. wood. longer than a yard stick, because it is--a winchester is a small gun to start off with, and a military rifle is a pretty long rifle. mr. liebeler. this one, even though the barrel was sawed-off, you think it was still longer than a yardstick? mr. wood. yes. mr. liebeler. could you guess about how much longer than a yardstick it would be? mr. wood. no, sir; it wasn't too much bigger than a yardstick. mr. liebeler. did you talk to this fellow any more than just ask him what you have already told us? mr. wood. no, sir. mr. liebeler. and he said only two words to you? mr. wood. yes. mr. liebeler. did he leave the range before you or after? mr. wood. before i did. mr. liebeler. did you see him go? mr. wood. yes. mr. liebeler. how did he go? mr. wood. he left with a man in a newer model car. mr. liebeler. did you see the model? mr. wood. no, i didn't. they went into the parking lot. they went around and i heard the car door slam and they took off, but it was a newer model. mr. liebeler. what kind of car? mr. wood. it was a ford, if i remember. mr. liebeler. about what year would you say? mr. wood. i don't remember. i just knew it was a newer model car. mr. liebeler. was it a convertible or station wagon? mr. wood. it was a hardtop. mr. liebeler. a hardtop? mr. wood. yes. mr. liebeler. about this other fellow that this guy was with, was he a big man or just---- mr. wood. about the same size this man was. mr. liebeler. how tall would you say this man was? mr. wood. oh, about ' ". mr. liebeler. about ' "? mr. wood. yes. mr. liebeler. now the fbi talked to you about this once before or a couple of times, didn't they? mr. wood. yes. mr. liebeler. did the fbi ask you now how this fellow left the range? mr. wood. what do you mean by that? mr. liebeler. did he ask you, did he go and get in a car or did he leave with somebody else? mr. wood. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. do you remember them asking you this? mr. wood. yes. mr. liebeler. do you remember what you told him? mr. wood. yes. mr. liebeler. what did you tell him? mr. wood. i told him they left in a newer model car. he had to go around through the main office because that was yards down and he had to come around and he left in a newer model car with this man, and he wasn't driving. mr. liebeler. that the man who you saw firing was not driving? mr. wood. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. did you tell the fbi what kind of car it was? mr. wood. i think i told him, i am pretty sure it was a ford. that is what i remember, because i like fords and i remember what a ford looks like. mr. liebeler. did you tell the fbi that this fellow who you saw shooting this rifle left with another man? mr. wood. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. you are pretty clear about that? mr. wood. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. and you also told that the fellow you saw shooting the rifle wasn't driving the car, is that right? mr. wood. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. now later on the next week after the president was assassinated, did you see a picture of this man or observe his picture on television or the radio or newspaper, or see him in any other way? mr. wood. are you talking about oswald? mr. liebeler. the man that was firing at the rifle range? mr. wood. that is what made me notice him. mr. liebeler. tell us about that. mr. wood. the man out at the rifle range had a mean, stern face. you could tell he was a cold man, and that is what made me look at him more than i did anybody else. so when i saw the picture on television that night, i was sure it was him. mr. liebeler. you spoke to your father about it? mr. wood. yes; we went to get a paper about the assassination and i said, "dad, that does look like the man to me." and he said it did, too. mr. liebeler. did your father mention it to you first, or did you mention it to your father? mr. wood. i mentioned it to him first. mr. liebeler. you mentioned it to him first? mr. wood. yes. mr. liebeler. was your mother there when you mentioned it to him? mr. wood. no, sir; she was out. we had gone out to get a paper. mr. liebeler. the first time you saw this guy's picture was in the newspaper, is that right? mr. wood. yes; i kept remembering how he looked and i finally told my dad. mr. liebeler. you told your father that this guy you saw at the rifle range looked like oswald, based on the picture of oswald in the newspaper? mr. wood. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. now, did you ever read in the newspaper anything about oswald's ability to drive an automobile? mr. wood. no, sir; i didn't read anything about that. mr. liebeler. do you remember whether or not oswald could drive a car or not? mr. wood. i think he could, because my mother told me something about him going to mexico or something. mr. liebeler. now you said that your mother told you something about oswald going to mexico, is that right? mr. wood. yes. mr. liebeler. you never were aware of the fact or heard that oswald could not drive a car, is that right? mr. wood. do you mean--i didn't get what you said. mr. liebeler. did anybody ever tell you that oswald couldn't drive a car? mr. wood. no, sir. mr. liebeler. you never heard that? mr. wood. no, sir. mr. liebeler. and you don't know that now? mr. wood. no, sir; i thought he could drive. mr. liebeler. did this other man that he was with fire a rifle at all? mr. wood. no, sir. mr. liebeler. he did not? mr. wood. no, sir. mr. liebeler. sterling, i want to show you some pictures of some men, and these pictures have previously been marked as commission's exhibit and through , sir. there are five of them. i want you to look at them and tell me if any of the pictures look like the guy you saw at the rifle range that you think was oswald? mr. wood. no, sir. mr. liebeler. none of those look like him? mr. wood. no, sir. mr. liebeler. now i want to show you another photograph which has not yet been marked, and ask you to look at it very carefully and tell me if any of the people in that picture look like the boy at the rifle range? mr. wood. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. which one? mr. wood. that one with the paper in his hand. mr. liebeler. now i want to show you another picture that has been marked as pizzo exhibit -b, and ask you, that is the same picture, isn't it? mr. wood. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. you pointed out that he has a green line over his head and you say that is the fellow you saw at the rifle range? mr. wood. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. here is another picture that i want you to look at and see if you see anybody that looks like the fellow you saw at the rifle range? mr. wood. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. which one is that? mr. wood. that man right here. mr. liebeler. this one right here? mr. wood. yes. mr. liebeler. here is another picture just the same one as the one i showed you. mr. wood. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. the man that you pointed out as being the individual that you saw at the rifle range has a green mark over his head. there are two different marks. it looks like an "x," but it is two marks as opposed to one mark over here. mr. wood. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. and you say that is the man you saw at the rifle range? mr. wood. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. i want to show you a picture that has been marked "pizzo exhibit -c," and ask you if that looks like the fellow you saw at the rifle range? mr. wood. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. have you seen that picture before? mr. wood. no, sir. mr. liebeler. one like it? mr. wood. no, sir; not unless it's been in the paper. i think there has been one like that in the paper. mr. liebeler. did the fbi show you a picture of oswald? mr. wood. they showed me a picture with his gun in his backyard. mr. liebeler. and you recognized that picture as being the man you saw at the rifle range? mr. wood. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. i show you two pictures that have been previously marked as exhibits and , on the deposition of mr. greener. tell me whether that is the rifle the man had? mr. wood. it does look like the rifle, but the scope looks a little funny to me. mr. liebeler. what looks funny about the scope? mr. wood. because i seem to remember when i got a glance, it seemed to get bigger at the end and get smaller as it went along. mr. liebeler. would you say that is not the scope that was on the rifle? mr. wood. i am not too sure, but i would say that looks like a foreign made scope. mr. liebeler. the one in this picture does? mr. wood. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. you are pretty sure in your own mind that the scope that was on the rifle at the range was not an american scope, is that correct? mr. wood. yes; it looked japanese. mr. liebeler. sterling, you noticed how the sling is mounted on this rifle? mr. wood. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. it is mounted on the side on the butt, is it not? and on the side of the rifle, also? mr. wood. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. is that the way the sling was on the rifle that you saw at the rifle range? mr. wood. i am not too sure. it was either mounted underneath or on the side. i am not sure. mr. liebeler. you wouldn't remember one way or the other? mr. wood. i think it was mounted on the side. i am not too sure. i wouldn't want to be positive. mr. liebeler. now do you remember that the fbi showed you a picture of a rifle? mr. wood. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. is this the same picture? mr. wood. as i remember, it looks like the same picture. mr. liebeler. did you tell the fbi that the weapon in the picture that they showed you was not the one you observed out at the rifle range? mr. wood. i said that was not the one. it didn't have this background in it. it's a picture that he showed me. mr. liebeler. this is not the same picture the fbi showed you? mr. wood. no, sir. mr. liebeler. well, now, the fbi did show you a picture of a rifle? mr. wood. yes; it was an enlarged picture. mr. liebeler. did you tell them that that was the rifle that the man you think is oswald had, or was not the rifle? mr. wood. i told them that was not the rifle. mr. liebeler. you told them that was not the rifle? mr. wood. yes. mr. liebeler. the rifle in this picture, is this the same rifle? can you tell, or a different rifle that was in the picture that the fbi showed you? mr. wood. you mean to say--i don't know what you said. mr. liebeler. the fbi agent showed you a picture of a rifle? mr. wood. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. is the rifle that he showed you, the picture that he showed you, the picture of the same rifle as is in the picture we have here on the desk, or were they different rifles or can you tell? mr. wood. i think they were the same rifles, except the rifle that he showed me didn't have that scope. i told them that that wasn't the scope. mr. liebeler. that is what you told me just now? mr. wood. yes; so it would be a different rifle. mr. liebeler. my question is this. note that i am not asking you now whether this rifle is the same as the one that the fellow at the rifle range had, or whether or not the rifle that the fbi showed you, or the picture that the fbi showed you, was a picture of the same rifle that oswald had on the rifle range--i just want to know now whether you can tell me whether the picture that i am showing you now is a picture of the same rifle as the fbi showed you. mr. wood. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. it is? mr. wood. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. and you still say now that the scope on this rifle doesn't look like the scope the guy at the rifle range had? mr. wood. yes. mr. liebeler. but this is the same scope as in the picture that the fbi showed you? mr. wood. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. did the fbi ask you about the sling mount on the rifle? mr. wood. i think they did. mr. liebeler. what did you tell them about that? mr. wood. i think i told them it was mounted on the underneath, i am not too sure. i wasn't too positive then when i told them that. mr. liebeler. and you are not sure now? mr. wood. i am not sure now, because i didn't have that long of glance. mr. liebeler. how did the fbi agent talk to you? did he try to convince you that it wasn't the same rifle, or just show the picture and let you tell? mr. wood. let me tell. mr. liebeler. he didn't try to convince you one way or the other? mr. wood. no, sir; he didn't try to force me one way or the other. mr. liebeler. now the scope that we have here on this rifle is enlarged at the forward end, is it not? mr. wood. it is big towards the muzzle of the rifle; yes, sir. mr. liebeler. is that the way the scope was on the rifle that you saw at the rifle range, too? mr. wood. yes, sir; but it was the same size as that, and it got smaller as it came to a point, but it was a big point. mr. liebeler. well, now, this one here is big at the back and it gets smaller in the middle, and then gets bigger at the front end. now tell me the difference between this one and the one that you saw at the rifle range? mr. wood. this was bigger and it got smaller as it went along. mr. liebeler. it didn't get bigger at the forward end? mr. wood. no; i didn't get that good a glance, but what i saw is what i told you. mr. liebeler. all right, you are pretty sure in your own mind that that was lee oswald that you saw at the rifle range? mr. wood. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. do you know kenney longley? mr. wood. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. was he out there that day? mr. wood. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. did he see this guy? mr. wood. i don't know if he saw him or not. mr. liebeler. did you talk to him about it? mr. wood. yes, sir; i think i did, because i was standing, he was waiting in a booth to shoot. they all were filled up, and he stood back there and was noticing it, too. he noticed the fire coming out of the gun. mr. liebeler. well, now, have you talked to kenney longley about this fellow at the rifle range since the assassination? mr. wood. i haven't seen him. mr. liebeler. was there anybody else out there at the range that day that you knew? mr. wood. a friend of mine, charles mcdowell, but he was busy gathering shells. mr. liebeler. and he didn't see this guy, as far as you know? mr. wood. i don't know if he saw him. i don't think so. maybe he did. mr. liebeler. have you talked to mcdowell about it since the assassination? mr. wood. yes. mr. liebeler. did you ask mcdowell whether he saw this fellow? mr. wood. no, sir; but i am pretty sure, because he was right next to him, and he was down under the booth gathering shells. mr. liebeler. you said that you have talked to mcdowell about this guy at the rifle range? mr. wood. yes. mr. liebeler. what did you talk to him about? mr. wood. i talked to him about, i told him that very same night i talked to my daddy, and i called him on the phone and told him that i saw that man out there, and we talked about the president's death, and that was all. he said he remembered him, too, i think. mr. liebeler. did you tell him that you thought that the fellow at the rifle range was oswald? mr. wood. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. what did he say? mr. wood. he didn't know, and he wasn't too sure, but he wasn't as close as i was to him. mr. liebeler. where does this fellow live? mr. wood. mcdowell? mr. liebeler. yes. mr. wood. marsalis, the first street over from where i do. i don't know the address. mr. liebeler. now, sterling, i don't think i have any more questions that i can think of right now, but i want to say this: if you can think of anything else about this fellow that i haven't asked you about, or that you think you should tell me, i want you to tell me now so we can get it on the record. mr. wood. well, i remember we went down to look at our target, and he left after i did. because i went down there real quick and i remember looking at his, and as i was leaving, he came down to look at his target and was looking at how accurate it was, and that is about all i have to tell you. mr. liebeler. he was a pretty good shot? mr. wood. he was the most accurate of all the targets that i noticed. mr. liebeler. okay, sterling, i want to thank you very much. you have been very helpful. i hope we weren't too hard on you. the commission wants you to know that it appreciates the cooperation you have given to us. mr. wood. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. thank you very much. mr. wood. all right. testimony of theresa wood the testimony of theresa wood was taken at p.m., on april , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. liebeler. would you rise and raise your right hand, please. do you swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mrs. wood. i do. mr. liebeler. please sit down. my name is wesley j. liebeler. i am a staff attorney on the president's commission investigating the assassination of president kennedy. mr. rankin wrote a letter to your husband and your son last week, telling them that he wanted to question them. i have just concluded questioning both of them. i would like to ask you a couple of questions about some points that came up during their statements. mr. liebeler. would you state your full name, for the record, please? mrs. wood. my married name? mr. liebeler. yes; your married name. mrs. wood. theresa wood. mr. liebeler. you are the wife of dr. homer wood, are you not? mrs. wood. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. and the mother of sterling charles wood? mrs. wood. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. do you recall that sometime after the assassination of the president, your husband saw a picture of oswald either in the newspaper or on television and said something to you about it? do you remember that? mrs. wood. yes. mr. liebeler. tell me what happened, and the circumstances and what you saw? mrs. wood. he thought he was the same man they saw out at the gun range. in fact, he was sure of it. and he asked sterling, and sterling said, "yes, daddy, it is the same man." and they were very, very sure of it at the time. mr. liebeler. now, was sterling in the room? did your husband first see oswald's picture on the television or in the newspapers; do you remember? mrs. wood. i don't remember exactly. i think it was the newspapers or somewhere. they had three pictures of him. i think it was in the newspapers. could have been on television. mr. liebeler. now, was sterling there at the time your husband first spoke of this to you? mrs. wood. no, i don't think so. i think he later asked sterling. mr. liebeler. do you remember whether he asked sterling, or whether sterling mentioned it of his own accord without any prompting from his father? do you remember how that happened? mrs. wood. no, i don't remember exactly. i know they were both talking about it. they were both pretty sure that he was the man. mr. liebeler. but you have no recollection at this point that your husband first saw a picture and said to you, now, in substance, that this looked like the man he saw on the rifle range and he wanted to wait and see if sterling recognized him also, and that he purposely did not mention it to sterling, but waited to see if sterling would come forward with the same idea? do you remember that happening? mrs. wood. no; my husband was very, very sure. in fact, he was positive. and there was a friend that they met at the range. i think it was the same day. he called him to see if he thought, or if he had recognized oswald. mr. liebeler. what was that friends name? mrs. wood. it was kenny longley. mr. liebeler. you didn't talk to longley, did you? mrs. wood. no. mr. liebeler. your husband did? mrs. wood. i think my husband called, but he never did talk to the boy. the boy was in school. mr. liebeler. do you know if he ever talked to the boy about it afterward? mrs. wood. i don't think so. kenney longley though was a good ways off or something, and i don't know whether he really saw him. according to my husband, he said he could have. mr. liebeler. do you know of anybody else that was out at the rifle range that your husband or your son knew who might have seen this fellow? mrs. wood. no. mr. liebeler. that is about all i wanted to ask you. thank you very much for your cooperation. testimony of glenn emmett smith the testimony of glenn emmett smith was taken at : a.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. liebeler. my name is wesley j. liebeler. i am a member of the legal staff of the president's commission to investigate the assassination of president john f. kennedy. i have been authorized to take your testimony by the commission pursuant to authority granted to it by executive order , dated november , , and joint resolution of congress no. . i understand that mr. rankin wrote to you sometime last week advising you that i would be in touch with you to take your testimony. i understand also that he included with his letter a copy of the executive order and resolution just referred to, together with a copy of the rules of procedure for the taking of testimony which have been adopted by the commission in conformance with the executive order and joint resolution described above. did you receive the letter from mr. rankin? mr. smith. i did. mr. liebeler. those documents were enclosed with it, were they not? three different documents in that letter? mr. smith. [hands papers to attorney.] i'd better let you look, for i don't know what is in there. mr. liebeler. yes; they are. the general nature of the commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of president kennedy and the subsequent killing of lee harvey oswald. we want to inquire of you today concerning any knowledge you may have about the alleged sale of a rifle by an individual thought to be lee harvey oswald to one robert taylor. we would also like to get from you any information that you have about oswald's associates in irving, tex. before we get to the details of that testimony, would you state your full name for the record? mr. smith. glenn emmett smith. mr. liebeler. where do you live, sir? mr. smith. argentia, apartment c. mr. liebeler. is that in dallas? mr. smith. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. where are you employed? mr. smith. at jack's super shell, rock island and story road, irving. mr. liebeler. how long have you been employed there? mr. smith. since the th of april of . mr. liebeler. in what capacity do you work at the shell station? mr. smith. i am a drive attendant. i work the driveway. mr. liebeler. what did you do prior to the time that you went to work for the shell station? mr. smith. i was an income tax consultant. mr. liebeler. worked in dallas? mr. smith. yes. mr. liebeler. how long were you engaged in that? mr. smith. just through the tax months, from january to the th of april. mr. liebeler. what do you usually do? do you usually work service stations? mr. smith. yes. mr. liebeler. how old are you, sir? mr. smith. fifty-three. mr. liebeler. are you a native of texas? mr. smith. yes. mr. liebeler. have you lived all your life in dallas? mr. smith. no. i have been here since . mr. liebeler. where did you live prior to that time? mr. smith. shawnee, okla. mr. liebeler. were you born in oklahoma or born in texas? mr. smith. born in texas. mr. liebeler. then moved to oklahoma? mr. smith. moved to oklahoma. mr. liebeler. then moved back to texas? mr. smith. moved back to texas. mr. liebeler. do you know one robert taylor? mr. smith. i think i do. mr. liebeler. how long have you known him? mr. smith. since i went to work, since the th of april . mr. liebeler. is mr. taylor also employed at the shell station where you worked? mr. smith. well, i don't know if he is going to be let out or not. he is off sick, and i understand that mr. smith has hired another man, which i know he got a man working. i don't know if he is going to let robert come back. mr. liebeler. but mr. taylor did work at the shell station from at least april of , up until sometime when he became ill, is that correct? mr. smith. he was working there when i went to work, and he worked there steadily. mr. liebeler. he became ill? mr. smith. yes. mr. liebeler. approximately when did he get sick? mr. smith. he has been off a week and a half now. he went home sick saturday a week ago. mr. liebeler. he hasn't been at work since that time? mr. smith. well, he come back and worked hours last friday and had to go home again. mr. liebeler. what kind of work does mr. taylor do at the station? he is--is he a driveway attendant? mr. smith. no; a mechanic. mr. liebeler. you actually have a shop there at the shell station? mr. smith. we do minor repairs, no major, just minor repair. mr. liebeler. how old is mr. taylor, do you know, possibly? mr. smith. i think he is . i believe he told me he is . mr. liebeler. did you ever have any discussions with mr. taylor about a man who taylor thought might be or was lee harvey oswald? mr. smith. no, sir; i did not. i heard mr. taylor, if i may tell you this---- mr. liebeler. i want you to tell me what you know about it. mr. smith. there was an fbi man called out and talked to us, and i heard mr. taylor tell him between customers now, i was just catching little words, and not enough to make very much sense, but i did hear him tell that he had traded a rifle or bought a rifle or something from oswald. now i didn't know oswald. he showed us his picture, but i didn't know him. he had been through there but i didn't recognize him. mr. liebeler. the fbi showed you oswald's picture? mr. smith. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. and you didn't recognize him? mr. smith. no, sir. you see, sir--to my knowledge, i have never seen he or his wife. mr. liebeler. did you hear mr. taylor discussing this rifle that he bought from this fellow, before the fbi fellow talked to him? mr. smith. no. mr. liebeler. do you remember when the fbi man came to the station? would that have been in about the middle of december of ? mr. smith. i'd be afraid to commit myself. i don't remember when he was there. it's been about or months ago or something like that. mr. liebeler. do you remember the man's name? mr. smith. no; i don't. mr. liebeler. would it refresh your recollection if i suggested that his name was morris j. white? do you remember that was his name or don't you remember? mr. smith. i don't remember. mr. liebeler. don't you remember that you told the fbi agent that you had heard conversation that taylor had purchased a rifle from some customer, and that that customer was thought by taylor to be lee harvey oswald? didn't you tell that to the fbi agent? mr. smith. no, sir. mr. liebeler. you did not? mr. smith. no, sir; absolutely not. i am absolutely positive. mr. liebeler. the first time you ever heard anything about this rifle that taylor was supposed to have purchased was when the fbi agent was interviewing taylor, isn't that your statement? mr. smith. that is right. mr. liebeler. you never heard anything about it from taylor or anyone else prior to that time? mr. smith. no, sir. mr. liebeler. did you discuss this question of the rifle with taylor after the fbi agent was there? mr. smith. nothing more than he told me that let's see now, bob said he had traded a rifle, and that is about all. we were busy, and he said he traded a rifle, and that was the day that he showed the picture to me, the picture that the fbi man showed me, and that was all that was said about it. mr. liebeler. taylor told you afterwards that the fbi agent had showed him a picture and this picture was supposed to be a picture of oswald? mr. smith. he showed both of us the picture. mr. liebeler. he showed both of you the picture? mr. smith. yes. mr. liebeler. and taylor told you after the fbi agent left that the picture that the fbi agent showed you was a picture of the man from whom taylor had purchased the rifle, is that correct? mr. smith. he told the fbi man that. he didn't tell me that after he left, but he definitely told him that in my presence. i heard him. mr. liebeler. did you have any discussions with taylor after the fbi agent left about this question? mr. smith. no, sir. mr. liebeler. did you have any discussions with anybody else about it? mr. smith. no, sir. mr. liebeler. did you ever see the rifle that taylor supposedly purchased from this man? mr. smith. no. mr. liebeler. did taylor ever tell you what kind of rifle it was? mr. smith. no, sir. mr. liebeler. and you never heard from anybody what kind of rifle it was? mr. smith. i never heard anything about it at all. mr. liebeler. how well do you know taylor? mr. smith. i never knew him until i went to work there. just by working with him, that is all. mr. liebeler. you never associated with him outside of work? mr. smith. no, sir; i hadn't. mr. liebeler. have you ever formed any opinion as to taylor's truthfulness or his reliability? mr. smith. i think he is truthful, and i think he is reliable. mr. liebeler. you don't think he would tell the fbi agent that he got a rifle from this fellow if he didn't in fact get a rifle from this fellow? mr. smith. i don't. i sure don't. mr. liebeler. do you know where west fifth street is in irving, tex.? mr. smith. yes. mr. liebeler. have you ever been there? mr. smith. i have taken a lady home that lived there, to bring a car back to service it. mr. liebeler. can you remember approximately when that was? mr. smith. oh, we serviced her car quite often. what i mean, washed it and greased it, and she comes in occasionally now, but not like she used to. mr. liebeler. have you gone to her house more than once to bring the car back to the station? mr. smith. to the best of my knowledge, i believe three times. mr. liebeler. were all of these times prior to the assassination? mr. smith. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. can you remember approximately when the first time was that you took this lady home to her house and brought the car back to the station? mr. smith. well---- mr. liebeler. do you remember now that you first started to work for the station in the last of april ? can you remember approximately how long after that it was when you first went to this address on fifth street? mr. smith. i sure don't. mr. liebeler. you have no idea? mr. smith. no. mr. liebeler. a month, or months, or just don't remember? mr. smith. possibly or months, something like that. mr. liebeler. ever have any conversation with this lady during the time that you drove with her back to her house? mr. smith. nothing more than just passing the time of day. the only thing, she made the statement one time, the first time i took her home, that she got a little child and she said the baby, he could speak russian better than he could english. that is the first time i knew there was any russian blood there. mr. liebeler. did she tell you they were russian, or just told you the little child could speak russian? mr. smith. that is all she told me. mr. liebeler. that the child could speak russian better than english? mr. smith. yes. mr. liebeler. did you ever see anyone other than this lady and her children at the house on fifth street in irving? mr. smith. no, sir. mr. liebeler. did you actually go into the house on any occasion? mr. smith. i helped her. i carried some groceries in her house one time. she had a carload of groceries, and i helped her put them in the house. mr. liebeler. do you remember how many children were with her at that time? mr. smith. three, i believe. mr. liebeler. three children? mr. smith. yes. mr. liebeler. did you make any judgment as to approximately how old they were? did it appear to you that they were all her children, or weren't the ages so that it seemed to you that maybe one was the child of somebody else? mr. smith. i had an idea they were all hers. they were approximately, looked like spaced out about a year or year and a half apart, something like that. mr. liebeler. do you remember which child this lady said could speak russian better than she could speak english? mr. smith. the baby. mr. liebeler. the youngest one? mr. smith. the youngest one. mr. liebeler. do you remember hearing this young baby speaking russian? mr. smith. i did, but i didn't know what she was talking about. i couldn't understand it, and that is the reason she told me that. mr. liebeler. did anybody else speak russian to the child? mr. smith. no. mr. liebeler. did you hear the lady speak russian? mr. smith. no, i didn't. mr. liebeler. did the other two children speak russian? mr. smith. they didn't do no talking. mr. liebeler. in either english or russian; is that right? mr. smith. no. mr. liebeler. could you describe this lady for us? mr. smith. she is a slender woman, tall, slender woman; has very nice personality, and that is about all that i can say for her. she didn't do much talking either. mr. liebeler. did she ever make a statement to you that she was russian herself? mr. smith. no, sir. mr. liebeler. she just indicated to you that the little baby spoke russian better than english, is that right? mr. smith. that's right. mr. liebeler. did she tell you how it came to be that baby spoke russian? mr. smith. no, sir. mr. liebeler. you didn't ask her? mr. smith. i didn't ask her. mr. liebeler. were you curious about that? mr. smith. yes; i was. i went back to the station and talked to the boss about it. i told him, "i believe those people are russian people living down there," and he said why, and i told him about the lady telling me the little fellow spoke russian better than english. and they were curious about it, but nothing was ever said. we didn't say anything to her, because she just come in and got gas and that was all. she never did talk much or anything. mr. liebeler. did you ever learn what this lady's name was? mr. smith. no; i did not. mr. liebeler. and you don't know what it is today? mr. smith. i do not. mr. liebeler. was this child a boy or girl, or could you tell? mr. smith. i don't know. i never paid any attention to it. i don't know if it was or not. mr. liebeler. you couldn't tell whether it was a boy or girl? mr. smith. well. i didn't know, because i didn't notice. i didn't pay any attention whether it was a boy or girl. ordinarily, when i take a car home out there, i try to get there and back as fast as i can and i don't pay any attention other than the house number and what time it is supposed to be delivered. mr. liebeler. what kind of car did this lady have? mr. smith. it is a station wagon. i believe a plymouth. mr. liebeler. approximately what year? mr. smith. about a ' or ' . mr. liebeler. are you sure it is a plymouth, or could it be some other car? mr. smith. no; i am not positive. it is either a plymouth or a chevrolet. i am not positive. mr. liebeler. have you ever seen this lady at any time other than when she brought her car to the gas station to have it serviced, or when you took her to her house? mr. smith. no, sir. mr. liebeler. was there ever anyone with this lady other than the children at any time? mr. smith. no, sir. mr. liebeler. did you ever meet this lady's husband? mr. smith. no, sir. mr. liebeler. did you ever hear anything about him? mr. smith. no, sir. mr. liebeler. did you ever hear that they were separated from each other? mr. smith. no, sir. mr. liebeler. when you went into the house this first time to take the groceries in, as i understand it, that was the time when the youngest child was speaking russian, is that correct? mr. smith. that's right. mr. liebeler. when you went into the house, you brought the groceries into the kitchen, is that correct? mr. smith. no; i set them down in the living room. she told me to put them on the coffee table, and i did. mr. liebeler. did you at that time see anything that would indicate to you that there was someone else in the house? mr. smith. the house was awfully dirty. boy, i never saw such a mess in my life. things were on the floor, clothing and papers and everything else. mr. liebeler. did you have any idea when you went into the house with her that there might be someone else in the house or was someone there in the house when you came in? mr. smith. no, sir. mr. liebeler. could you tell one way or the other? you didn't see into the bedrooms, did you? mr. smith. no, sir. mr. liebeler. there could have been someone else in the bedrooms and you wouldn't have seen them? mr. smith. there could have been. mr. liebeler. the lady didn't speak to anybody or call out when she came into the house to anyone else? mr. smith. no, sir. mr. liebeler. this lady never indicated to you that this child that spoke russian was not, in fact, her own child, did she? mr. smith. no, sir. mr. liebeler. you always assumed it was this lady's child? mr. smith. that's right. mr. liebeler. i want to show you five different pictures that have been marked in a previous procedure as commission exhibits , , , , and . i want you to look at them and tell me if you have seen the individuals depicted in these pictures at any time? mr. smith. [looking] no, sir; i sure don't recognize him. mr. liebeler. you don't recognize any of these? mr. smith. i don't ever remember seeing him. mr. liebeler. i show you another photograph which has been marked previously as pizzo exhibit -b. it is a picture of several people, but one of the individuals has been indicated by a green mark on the face of the photo and i ask you if you have ever seen that individual, to the best of your knowledge? mr. smith. no, sir; i do not recognize him. mr. liebeler. i show you another photograph which has been marked previously as pizzo exhibit -c and ask you if you have ever seen that individual, to the best of your knowledge? mr. smith. no, sir; i haven't. mr. liebeler. i asked you before, did i not, whether you have ever seen this rifle that mr. taylor told you he had purchased? mr. smith. i have not seen it. mr. liebeler. i don't think i have any more questions, mr. smith. if you can think of anything that you know that you think the commission might be interested in, whether i have asked you about it or haven't asked you, i would appreciate it if you would indicate that. mr. smith. well, i don't think i have a thing in the world, because actually i didn't know oswald or his wife, either one. i don't ever remember seeing them. and i do want to tell you this. at the time president kennedy was assassinated, i thought this woman who lived on fifth street, right after it happened, i thought that was his wife simply because of her saying that this child spoke russian and the police arrested oswald, and i figured in my own mind that this was his wife, but it turned out differently, and that is the only thing that i learned about. mr. liebeler. you learned that it wasn't this lady's husband that was involved, by reading the newspapers, is that correct? mr. smith. yes, sir; and as far as if this lady that lived on fifth street had a husband, i have never seen a man around there at all, and i have never seen a man with her. ordinarily, just human nature would cause a man and his wife to be together sometime. mr. liebeler. but you have never seen this lady with her husband? mr. smith. i have never seen her with a man. mr. liebeler. i want to thank you very much, mr. smith, for coming in, i appreciate it. mr. smith. i wish there was something i could do, but i don't know a thing in the world i could help you with, i believe. mr. liebeler. thank you. i appreciate it very much. testimony of w. w. semingsen the testimony of w. w. semingsen was taken at a.m., on march , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. liebeler. please rise and raise your right hand. do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. semingsen. i do. mr. liebeler. please be seated. mr. semingsen my name is wesley j. liebeler. i am a member of the legal staff of the president's commission which has been appointed to investigate the assassination of president kennedy. the staff counsel have been authorized by the commission to take testimony pursuant to authority granted to the commission by executive order , dated november , , and joint resolution of congress no. . i believe that mr. rankin wrote you a letter last week telling you we would be in touch with you to take your testimony, and he sent that letter along with copies of the executive order and joint resolution of congress, as well as a copy of the commission's rules of procedure relating to the taking of testimony is that not correct? mr. semingsen. yes; i received mr. rankin's letter. mr. liebeler. we want to inquire of you today concerning the possibility that lee harvey oswald received money order telegrams through the offices of western union here in dallas, or possibly in fort worth or irving, and also briefly as to a money order telegram sent by jack ruby to an associate of his on november , . mr. liebeler. before we get into the details of that, would you state your full name for the record? mr. semingsen. my name is w. w. semingsen. mr. liebeler. by whom are you employed, sir? mr. semingsen. the western union telegraph co. mr. liebeler. in what capacity are you employed? mr. semingsen. as vice president, gulf division, headquarters, dallas, tex. mr. liebeler. what is the nature of your duties with the western union co. in that position? mr. semingsen. they are administrative and executive in capacity. i have jurisdiction over the operations in eight of the gulf division states. mr. liebeler. what are those states? mr. semingsen. texas, new mexico, colorado, kansas, missouri, arkansas, oklahoma, and louisiana. mr. liebeler. in your capacity as vice president of the gulf division, are you generally familiar with the recordkeeping procedures, the manner in which records of telegrams sent or received are kept by the company? mr. semingsen. yes; i am. mr. liebeler. you are not in direct supervision of the recordkeeping procedure? mr. semingsen. no; i am not. that is delegated to various supervisory employees. mr. liebeler. but in your capacity as vice president, you are thoroughly familiar with the way records are kept by the company? mr. semingsen. yes. i do have knowledge of recordkeeping, general knowledge of recordkeeping. mr. liebeler. in anticipation of the fact that your testimony would be taken by the commission, you have prepared a statement which is dated march , , which consists of five pages relating to the efforts made by western union in investigating the possibility that money orders payable to oswald or his alias, o. h. lee and alek james hidell, may have been received in the dallas or fort worth or irving office of western union? and also relating to telegrams sent or received by jack ruby during certain indicated periods; is that not correct? mr. semingsen. that is correct. mr. liebeler. i would like to mark that document as exhibit . i have marked the memorandum received as exhibit on the deposition of w. w. semingsen, march , , dallas, tex., and have initialed it, and i will ask you also to initial it, if you would, mr. semingsen. (witness initials and signs on page .) mr. liebeler. am i correct in understanding that you did prepare this report in anticipation of giving testimony to the commission? mr. semingsen. yes; i did, in the interest of expediting the testimony. mr. liebeler. and you are thoroughly familiar with the matters set forth in exhibit , are you not? mr. semingsen. yes; i am. mr. liebeler. the material set forth in that memorandum is true and correct, to the best of your knowledge, is it not? mr. semingsen. yes; it is. mr. liebeler. we should note for the record that exhibit has in the left-hand margin certain numerals which i have placed there running from through , which refers to attachments to the exhibit, which, in effect, form a part of the memorandum. and, you have marked, have you not, the exhibits running through which you intend should be a part of the memorandum; is that correct? mr. semingsen. yes; that is correct. mr. liebeler. the attachments to the exhibit, which are numbered through , are photostatic copies of the originals of certain documents, or of copies of certain documents which you retain in your possession, as are described in exhibit ; is that correct? mr. semingsen. that is correct. mr. liebeler. i refer specifically to the item marked "attachment to exhibit ," which consists of photostatic copies of four separate documents. please identify for the record the first one of those documents. mr. semingsen. the first one of the documents on page of the attachment is the original money order application prepared and filed by jack ruby in dallas, tex., on november , , at : a.m., as noted by the automatic time stamp shown on the application. mr. liebeler. we will mark that as exhibit no. , and note for the record that we are marking these at the request of mr. hubert, who has the responsibility for area of the investigation, relating to mr. ruby. i have marked the document referred to as exhibit on the deposition of mr. w. w. semingsen, march , , in dallas, tex., and have initialed it, and ask you to initial it also, if you would, mr. semingsen. mr. semingsen. [initials.] mr. liebeler. the next document forming a part of attachment no. to exhibit , is what, mr. semingsen? mr. semingsen. it is the duplicate or carbon copy of the original money order receipt given to jack ruby at the time he filed the money order application. the original of this receipt was given to mr. ruby and found in his possession by the police at the time of his arrest. mr. liebeler. we will mark the copy which you have just described as exhibit on the deposition of mr. w. w. semingsen, dallas, tex., march , . [also introduced as lane exhibits nos. and .] i have initialed the copy which you have just described, and ask that you also initial it, please. mr. semingsen. [initials.] i have so done. mr. liebeler. the next document forming a part of attachment no. to exhibit , is what, sir? mr. semingsen. this is the original money order receipt, showing the signature of the money order payable to karen bennett at fort worth, tex., on november , . mr. liebeler. i have marked the third document to which we just referred as exhibit on the deposition of mr. w. w. semingsen, dallas, tex., march , , and have initialed it. i notice that you have already initialed that exhibit; is that not correct, mr. semingsen? mr. semingsen. yes. mr. liebeler. the next document forming a part of attachment no. to exhibit , is what, sir? mr. semingsen. that is a copy of the original money order message received in fort worth authorizing the payment of the money to the payee. mr. liebeler. we will mark that telegram as on the deposition of mr. w. w. semingsen, dallas, tex., march , . i have initialed it and ask you, sir, to do the same. [also introduced as strong exhibits nos. and .] mr. semingsen. [initials.] and i have so done. mr. liebeler. on page of your memorandum, exhibit , you indicate that a search of your records in the dallas, tex., office show that no money orders payable to lee harvey oswald or his aliases, o. h. lee or alek james hidell, went through that office during the period june through november ; is that correct? mr. semingsen. that is correct. mr. liebeler. would you tell us how you came to that conclusion? mr. semingsen. a search was made of our "received money order file" for the period mentioned by supervisory employees, and no "received money orders" were found. the "received money orders" are filed in date order. mr. liebeler. is it a fact, mr. semingsen, that the receiving office of your company--in this case, dallas, tex.--actually keeps records showing the receipt of money orders payable to any person who received money orders through that office? mr. semingsen. yes; that's correct. mr. liebeler. who issued instructions that this search be made? mr. semingsen. i issued the instructions at the request of the fbi. mr. liebeler. are you personally satisfied that the search was carried out in a thorough manner and that there are in fact no records in the possession of the western union telegraph co. that would indicate that any money orders payable in the names mentioned above during the period june through november , exist? mr. semingsen. i am satisfied that a very thorough search was made by competent supervisory personnel who are familiar with our records. mr. liebeler. and you are in fact satisfied that there are no records in the possession of your company that would indicate that money order telegrams had been received by oswald under his own name or other names during that period; is that correct? mr. semingsen. i am satisfied as to that. mr. liebeler. now, also on the bottom of page of your memorandum you indicate that no telegrams were sent by lee harvey oswald or by any person under the name of the two aliases which we have mentioned, through the dallas, tex., office during the period september to november , ; is that correct? mr. semingsen. that is correct. mr. liebeler. would you tell us how you came to that conclusion? mr. semingsen. the same supervisory personnel who made the search for the "received money orders" made the search for any telegram sent by lee harvey oswald and alias already mentioned. the search was confined to "sent paid cash message" and to "sent collect messages." mr. liebeler. those messages are filed chronologically, is that correct? mr. semingsen. those messages are filed in date order. mr. liebeler. you mentioned two categories of messages to which the search was confined, and those were "sent paid messages," or "sent collect messages"? mr. semingsen. "sent paid cash messages," and "sent collect messages." mr. liebeler. what other type messages are there? mr. semingsen. the other types of messages are messages charged to customers having authorized charge accounts. it is obvious that a message filed by oswald would not be found in any of our charge account message files. mr. liebeler. now, it is possible to pick up the telephone and call the western union office and instruct that a telegram be sent and have it charged to the telephone number, is it not? mr. semingsen. that is correct. mr. liebeler. is that a separate category, or is that a third category? mr. semingsen. that is a separate category of messages filed by telephone subscribers and charged to their telephone. mr. liebeler. was a search made of those messages? mr. semingsen. i believe a search was made of those message, but i would have to confirm that with mr. wilcox, our local district manager in dallas. mr. liebeler. well, for the sake of clarity of the record, at this point let me suggest that we go off the record, and mr. wilcox is available. would you confer with mr. wilcox on that point and let us indicate on the record what he has advised you? mr. semingsen. yes. (discussion off the record.) mr. liebeler. let the record indicate that we have conferred off the record with mr. wilcox, and you have consulted with him as to whether or not a check was made of the records covering messages called in by telephone and charged to a telephone number. would you tell us what mr. wilcox indicated? mr. semingsen. mr. wilcox made reference to notes in these files and has determined that a search was not made of messages sent and charged to the telephone, for the reason that it had been indicated that oswald had filed messages at our office. in such event, the message would not be charged to the telephone, and for that reason, a search of the sent messages charged to the telephone was not made. mr. liebeler. at the same time you mean to indicate that the thing that prompted this search by your office in the first place was the story that oswald had actually been in the western union office and filed the message in person; is that correct? mr. semingsen. that is correct. mr. liebeler. if he had filed it in person, it would obviously not have been called in by telephone and charged to his telephone number; is that correct? mr. semingsen. that is correct. mr. liebeler. on the top of page of your memorandum , the statement appears "for money orders payable to lee harvey oswald and his aliases or to anyone at a specific address in dallas--october through november --result: negative." would you explain that for us, please? mr. semingsen. yes. as i have indicated in my prepared statement, one of our employees thought he had recognized oswald as having received a money order at our main office sometime during the dates mentioned. mr. liebeler. october through november ? mr. semingsen. yes. it was thought that the money order was payable to someone at a specific address in dallas, which was the ymca. mr. liebeler. so when you searched through the records indicating money orders payable during the period october through november , you determined that no money order had been made payable to lee harvey oswald, or to these aliases, and in addition to that fact, that no money orders of any kind had been made payable to anyone at the ymca in dallas; is that correct? mr. semingsen. that is correct. mr. liebeler. do you know where the information came from that the money order was supposed to have been payable to oswald at the ymca? mr. semingsen. yes. this information came from one of our night employees, mr. c. a. hamblen. mr. liebeler. before we get into mr. hamblen, i want to cover the rest of the statements made in your memorandum, and we will try to cover them generally. the memorandum indicates that certain money orders were received by jack ruby, and that certain telegrams were sent by jack ruby through the dallas office; is that correct? mr. semingsen. that's correct. mr. liebeler. and that information was determined as a result of the search that you have just described? mr. semingsen. that is correct. mr. liebeler. that is, the search of the money order payable file, plus the telegrams sent file, which search was confined, as you have indicated, only to the telegrams sent cash paid or sent collect; is that correct? mr. semingsen. that is correct. with respect to the money orders, the search was made of the received money order file records of which we have. as to the telegrams filed by mr. ruby, knowing that he was a resident of dallas, having a business here, we asked the fbi agent to check with the telephone company to see whether or not their records indicate any messages had been sent by ruby and charged to his telephone. this information was secured by the fbi from the telephone company and enabled us to readily locate the messages in our files which were charged to his telephone. mr. liebeler. you indicated before that when searching for telegrams sent by oswald, a general search was made of the chronological dates that you have described; is that correct? mr. semingsen. that's correct. mr. liebeler. you searched all the chronological records of the two classifications of telegrams that we have indicated? mr. semingsen. that's correct. mr. liebeler. during the time that search was made for telegrams sent by oswald, did the person making that search also look for telegrams sent by ruby? mr. semingsen. no. the search made for telegrams sent by ruby was confined to the dates given to us by the fbi, which dates were obtained from the telephone company records showing telegrams charged to ruby's telephone number or numbers on those dates. mr. liebeler. so, it is possible that mr. ruby may have sent other telegrams which were not charged to his telephone number or numbers, and of which we would not be aware as a result of the search made in connection with mr. ruby; is that correct? mr. semingsen. that is correct. mr. liebeler. on page of your memorandum, exhibit , you indicate that a telegram dated painesville, ohio, january , , to mrs. lee harvey oswald, was received. how did that come to your attention, mr. semingsen? mr. semingsen. that telegram was brought to my attention by district manager wilcox, it having been shown to him by one of our main office employees who handled the message. mr. liebeler. it was shown to mr. wilcox because of the nature of the message which the telegram contained; is that correct? mr. semingsen. that is correct. mr. liebeler. the telegram to which reference has just been made is attached to the memorandum as attachment no. . your memorandum also indicates negative results when a search was made of the office in irving. tex., in fort worth, tex., and in new orleans, la., for money orders payable to oswald or to his aliases, or in the case of new orleans for money orders sent or received by oswald and aliases through the periods indicated in the memorandum. were these statements made in your memorandum as a result of searches made similar to that in the dallas office, do you know? mr. semingsen. that is correct. mr. liebeler. did you personally instruct the new orleans office to conduct the search of their records or cause such instructions to be given? mr. semingsen. the search at new orleans with respect to received money orders was authorized by our district manager in new orleans. later a request was made for a similar search of sent money orders, which was referred to my office. and in this instance i authorized our new orleans office to make the search. mr. liebeler. so, as far as you know, the search concerning received money orders was instigated by a direct request to the new orleans office by the fbi or some other investigatory agency, is that correct? mr. semingsen. that is correct. mr. liebeler. i notice that the period for which a search was made in the fort worth office is confined to july , , , , , , and , . can you tell me the reason for that? mr. semingsen. the request for the search for money orders payable to oswald on those dates was made by local fbi agents in fort worth of our district manager there. the fbi agents requested the search because they had information to the effect that the mother of lee harvey oswald was a tenant at this address during that time. mr. liebeler. which address is that? mr. semingsen. the address was the rotary apartments, west seventh street. mr. liebeler. fort worth? mr. semingsen. fort worth. mr. liebeler. in answering the last question, you referred to a memorandum in your file from a mr. t. r. coates to you, is that correct? mr. semingsen. that's correct. mr. liebeler. that is dated december , ; is that correct? mr. semingsen. that's correct. mr. liebeler. the memorandum indicates that a mr. meyers of the fbi came to the fort worth office of your company and requested that a check be made of the received money orders for the last weekends of july to determine if a money order had been received addressed to lee harvey oswald, or anyone at the address of the rotary apartments, west seventh street, fort worth, tex.; is that correct? mr. semingsen. that's correct. mr. liebeler. mr. coates says that the fbi agent said that the fbi had information that lee harvey oswald's mother was a tenant at that address during that time, and mr. coates also indicates that a search of the received money orders of july , , - , - and - were made, but no record was found of any having been received; is that correct? mr. semingsen. that is correct. mr. liebeler. would it have been possible for oswald to have received money orders at any offices in dallas other than a dallas main office? mr. semingsen. yes. he could have received money orders at the branch offices. mr. liebeler. would the records of received money orders for the branch offices be filed at the dallas main office or at the dallas branch offices? mr. semingsen. i am not certain about that, but the search of all received money orders was made covering both the main and branch offices. mr. liebeler. in dallas? mr. semingsen. in dallas. mr. liebeler. what about suburban offices? we have noted that a specific search was made of the irving office. are there other suburban offices at which oswald could have received money orders, which would not have been uncovered by the search which was made? mr. semingsen. yes; it is possible he could have received money orders at such places, for example, at garland or grand prairie. mr. liebeler. is there only one office in irving? mr. semingsen. yes; there is one office in irving. mr. liebeler. do you know whether or not the records of received money orders for suburban areas of dallas are kept in the local suburban office or kept in the dallas main office? mr. semingsen. they are kept at the branch office. mr. liebeler. but you are absolutely certain that the records relating to the money orders received at the dallas branch office are either kept at the dallas main office or would the search that was made include a search of the branch offices; is that correct? mr. semingsen. yes; and in addition, irving, tex. mr. liebeler. you mentioned a moment ago the fact that one of your employees, mr. c. a. hamblen, who is presently a night manager in the dallas main office--is that correct? mr. semingsen. i am not sure what his title is. mr. liebeler. mr. hamblen said that he thought he recognized oswald as a customer in that office, is that correct? mr. semingsen. yes. he had indicated that he had thought he had seen mr. oswald or someone that looked like him in the office on some occasion, either receiving the money order or sending a telegram. mr. liebeler. would you tell us the background of mr. hamblen's involvement in this matter. in your own words tell us the story of the events that prompted this search. what investigation was made as to mr. hamblen's activities, and what conclusion the company came to in this respect? mr. semingsen. perhaps it would be best to get that testimony direct from mr. wilcox. however, i did participate in a very thorough questioning of mr. hamblen and can furnish you with this information. mr. liebeler. would you indicate for us briefly, and we will perhaps go into greater detail with mr. wilcox after lunch. mr. semingsen. sometime shortly after the killing of oswald by ruby, which was shown on television, mr. hamblen indicated or mentioned to mr. wilcox that he thought he had seen someone who appeared to look like oswald in our main office, either receiving a money order or sending a telegram. when mr. wilcox learned of this information, he had a search made of our files for certain dates which he is in better position to testify on. mr. liebeler. he caused the search to be made for a telegram that might have been sent by oswald or money order received by oswald; is that correct? mr. semingsen. that is correct. there were two specific instances in which mr. hamblen thought that he had seen oswald in the office. one having to do with a received money order, and the other instance having to do with the filing of a telegram. the search made by mr. wilcox revealed no such transactions. mr. liebeler. was this search made before or after mr. hamblen's views became known to the press? mr. semingsen. the first search was made before the information reached the press. the second and more intensive search was made following appearance in the press concerning the alleged filing of telegrams and receiving of money orders by oswald. mr. liebeler. as i understand the chronology of events here, mr. hamblen first indicated to mr. wilcox that he, hamblen, thought he recalled oswald having been in the western union office, the main office in dallas; is that correct? mr. semingsen. that is correct. mr. liebeler. subsequent to that time, as i understand it, mr. wilcox observed a story in the newspaper that indicated that oswald had been in the office and had received a small amount of money by telegram money order; is that correct? mr. semingsen. that is correct. mr. liebeler. as i understand it, mr. wilcox at that point concluded that the story must have gotten to the press through mr. hamblen, and after that time, mr. hamblen was questioned by mr. wilcox and also by yourself, and gave to mr. wilcox certain statements relating to his alleged recollection of oswald having been in the office; is that correct? mr. semingsen. that is correct. mr. liebeler. you have given me copies of two statements by mr. hamblen, dated december , , and december , , respectively. did you have any personal involvement in the preparation of these statements to which i have referred? mr. semingsen. no; i did not. at a meeting in mr. wilcox's office following my receipt of copies of these statements, i personally interrogated mr. hamblen and other employees whom hamblen had thought had handled the transactions in question. mr. liebeler. specifically, that would have been a mrs. d. j. mcclure? is that correct? mr. semingsen. that's correct. mr. liebeler. mrs. mcclure is an employee of the company who mr. hamblen said had had trouble with oswald and had requested him, hamblen, to assist in handling oswald; is that correct? mr. semingsen. that is correct. mr. liebeler. did you make any written report to the file, or for any other officer of the company, of your interrogation of mr. hamblen or mrs. mcclure? mr. semingsen. no; i did not. mr. liebeler. can you state for us at this time the general nature of the interrogation and the conclusions to which you came as a result of your questioning of mr. hamblen and mrs. mcclure? we will note at this time for the record that while mr. semingsen is referring to copies of the two statements made by mr. hamblen, dated december and december , , they will not be marked at this time, since mr. semingsen had no direct involvement in the preparation of these statements. they will be marked subsequently upon the examination of mr. wilcox. you may refer to those statements, if you wish. perhaps the record should also note that a statement was given to mr. wilcox, apparently by mrs. mcclure, on december , . mr. semingsen, you indicated that you had questioned both of those employees. i assume that when you did question them, you had these statements before you; is that correct? mr. semingsen. that is correct. mr. liebeler. please state the general nature of your questioning and the conclusions to which you came as a result of your questioning. mr. semingsen. as previously indicated, i questioned both of the employees separately, individually, and together in the presence of mr. wilcox, my purpose being to reconcile the differences in their statements. after having informed mr. hamblen of the extensive search that had been made for the telegram which he so vividly recalled having been filed by someone who looked like oswald, and calling to his attention that all of the cash messages that had been handled by mrs. mcclure had been accounted for and no such message located, i asked for a further explanation from him. after questioning him, he would give no further explanation in the presence of mrs. mcclure. mr. liebeler. did he still stick to the proposition that to the best of his recollection oswald or someone that he thought looked like oswald, had, in fact, been in the office and had these difficulties with mrs. mcclure? mr. semingsen. i similarly questioned mrs. mcclure, and i am satisfied from the answers that she gave that her story is the correct one. particularly in the absence of any such message in our files. mr. liebeler. mrs. mcclure's version is that no such person as oswald ever came in the office, and she had no difficulty with anyone as a result of which she requested assistance from mr. hamblen; is that correct? mr. semingsen. that is correct. mr. liebeler. are you satisfied that is a correct story? mr. semingsen. i am satisfied that that is the correct story as indicated by mrs. mcclure in her statement that mr. hamblen was confused, possibly had oswald mixed up with someone else who looked very much like him. mr. liebeler. mr. hamblen particularly mentioned a message that this person who he thought looked like oswald was supposed to have sent to washington, d.c.; is that correct? mr. semingsen. yes. mr. liebeler. to the secretary of navy in particular; is that correct? mr. semingsen. the message that he had reference to was supposedly a night letter addressed to washington. d.c., as indicated in his statement of december . in that statement he also indicated that the telegram was a cash telegram, accounted for by mrs. mcclure as a night letter. such accounting would have to appear on her record of cash telegrams accepted. mr. liebeler. this is the telegram with respect to which hamblen said mrs. mcclure had difficulty with a customer and requested his assistance; is that correct? mr. semingsen. that is correct. mr. liebeler. you have caused a thorough search of mrs. mcclure's records to be made and you have not found any night letter to washington, d.c.; is that correct? mr. semingsen. that is correct during the period searched. we did locate several messages to washington, d.c. i do not recall that they were accepted by mrs. mcclure, but mr. wilcox can testify as to that. in any event, a telegram to washington, d.c., and several other cities fitting the description that hamblen had given were shown to him and he could not identify any of them as the telegram he had referred to, which mrs. mcclure was supposed to have accepted. mr. liebeler. what dates were searched for the specific message to washington, d.c.? mr. semingsen. all cash messages sent to washington, d.c., from the latter part of october through november , . mr. liebeler. can you be more specific as to what the latter part of october might be? mr. semingsen. whether or not accepted by mrs. mcclure. in addition, a search of all cash messages accepted by mrs. mcclure during the period november to november , , inclusive, was made, and all messages accepted by her were matched out with her cash sheet and all messages have been accounted for. all cash messages accepted by her have been accounted for. none could be identified as the message in question referred to by mr. hamblen. mr. liebeler. when you said it could not be identified, you mean it could not be identified by mr. hamblen? when shown to mr. hamblen, he could not identify them? mr. semingsen. yes. mr. liebeler. so, you are perfectly satisfied in your own mind based on the investigation which your company has conducted, and your questioning of mr. hamblen and mrs. mcclure, that oswald did not receive any money order through your dallas office or any of the other offices indicated in your memorandum, exhibit , and that oswald did not, in fact, send a message to washington, d.c., or give a message to mrs. mcclure as indicated by mr. hamblen; is that correct? mr. semingsen. that is correct, and i am satisfied of that conclusion. mr. liebeler. i have no more questions at this point, mr. semingsen. i think that some of the details of the searches made and of other aspects of this matter will be taken up with mr. wilcox after lunch. if you have anything else that you would like to add, or you think i should ask you that i haven't asked you, i would appreciate if you would so indicate on the record at this point. mr. semingsen. i can think of nothing at this time, but if anything further does occur to me, i will be glad to bring it to your attention. i am sure that mr. wilcox will be more helpful in answering any questions that you may wish to ask him. mr. liebeler. thank you very much, mr. semingsen. testimony of laurance r. wilcox the testimony of laurance r. wilcox was taken at p. m., on march , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. wesley j. liebeler, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. liebeler. before i start, i want to swear you in as a witness. do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. wilcox. i do. mr. liebeler. mr. wilcox, my name is wesley j. liebeler. i am a member of the legal staff of the commission appointed by president johnson to investigate the assassination of president kennedy. staff counsel have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the commission pursuant to authority granted to the commission under executive order , dated november , , and joint resolution of congress no. . the commission rules of procedure require that copies of that executive order and the congressional resolution, as well as copies of the commission's rules and procedures relating to the taking of testimony be provided to each witness prior to the time his testimony is taken. i now provide you with copies of those documents. the general nature of the testimony that we wish to get from you today relates to investigations made by western union telegraph co. concerning the possibility that lee harvey oswald received money orders through the offices of your company, either in dallas or the surrounding area, and the possibility that he may have sent telegrams to other persons through the facilities of your company. mr. liebeler. before we get into the details of your testimony, would you please state your full name for the record? mr. wilcox. laurance r. wilcox. mr. liebeler. by whom are you employed? mr. wilcox. western union telegraph co. mr. liebeler. in what capacity? mr. wilcox. district manager. mr. liebeler. what are your duties as district manager? mr. wilcox. administrative; in charge of the operation for western union in the city of dallas. mr. liebeler. you are general manager then of the area which includes just the city of dallas; is that correct? mr. wilcox. district manager. mr. liebeler. of just the city of dallas; is that correct? mr. wilcox. yes; and immediate surrounding towns such as garland, mesquite, grand prairie, irving, and lancaster. that is all i can think of right now. mr. liebeler. you are generally in charge of the operations of the company within that particular area; is that correct? mr. wilcox. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. did there come a time, mr. wilcox, when you caused a search to be made of the records of the western union telegraph co. to determine whether or not lee harvey oswald had ever received or sent any telegrams through the offices under your jurisdiction? mr. wilcox. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. would you tell us about that? mr. wilcox. can i refer to these papers? mr. liebeler. you may refer to any papers that you wish. mr. wilcox. i want to so that i will have this exactly right as to what took place. my first knowledge of the message that was supposed to have been sent by oswald was when mr. hamblen, early night manager at my office, visited with me telling me---- mr. liebeler. is that mr. c. a. hamblen? mr. wilcox. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. go ahead. mr. wilcox. telling me that he had been watching the television, and when he saw the picture of oswald, he recognized that as being a man that had been in our office and had filed a message. mr. liebeler. do you remember when mr. hamblen told you this? mr. wilcox. this was on a wednesday following the assassination--following the shooting of oswald. he told me that he was positive that he had seen mr. oswald in our office. mr. liebeler. he told you this on wednesday following the sunday on which mr. oswald was shot by ruby; is that correct? mr. wilcox. that's right. mr. liebeler. that would have been november , ? thanksgiving was on november the th. mr. wilcox. yes. it was on a wednesday preceding thanksgiving. i asked mr. hamblen to tell me exactly what had taken place. he stated that oswald had filed a message going to washington--a cash message, and it was written in a peculiar script, as mr. hamblen put it. it was typed in pencil. i think he meant is printed in pencil. i asked him to immediately set about to obtain copies of that, as i was leaving town, and to get a copy of the message, and to do that it would be necessary for him to see mr. pirtle, our bookkeeping manager, and to get the message, put it in an envelope, and address it to my personal attention while i was in kansas city. mr. liebeler. did mr. hamblen tell you anything about what the message said or to whom it was addressed at this first conversation? mr. wilcox. no, he didn't. we left for kansas city and was there over the thanksgiving holidays. mr. liebeler. you and your family? mr. wilcox. yes. and while there, this article appeared in the kansas city star, their evening paper; very much the same story as appeared in the dallas times herald. mr. liebeler. i show you a copy of a clipping which purports to have appeared in the dallas times herald on november , . i ask you if this tells a story similar to the report you saw in the kansas city star? mr. wilcox. yes, same story. mr. liebeler. we will mark this clipping as exhibit on the deposition of laurance r. wilcox, at dallas, tex., march , . i have initialed the clipping in question, mr. wilcox, and ask you to do the same. mr. wilcox. [initials.] immediately when i read this story in the kansas city paper i recognized it as being the same story that mr. hamblen had told me just a couple of days before in my office. we returned to dallas sunday, and immediately on my return to the office monday---- mr. liebeler. monday, i suggest would have been december , ? mr. wilcox. yes. mr. liebeler. and you fix that by recalling that the assassination was on the d. the following friday would have been the th. saturday, the th. sunday the st; and monday would have been december ? mr. wilcox. yes, december . now, this was on my return to the office, and we indicated that was december . i went over the information that was contained in the newspaper article with mr. hamblen, reminding him that this was in effect the same story as he had told me just days before, a few days before. particularly, its comment about the strange printing on the telegram which he had seen presented by oswald. mr. hamblen admitted that he had discussed several matters with different reporters, but insisted that he hadn't given out such detailed information as appeared in the newspaper article. however, i was constrained to feel that he had because it was exactly the same story as he had given me initially in the past week. there was no doubt in my mind but that the newspaper article stemmed from mr. hamblen's visit with a newspaper reporter. mr. liebeler. in this connection, mr. wilcox, you have referred to a copy of a letter dated december , , which appears to be a letter from you to mr. semingsen; is that correct? mr. wilcox. yes, sir; would you like to have a copy? mr. liebeler. yes. did you prepare that letter on or about december ? mr. wilcox. yes, i did. mr. liebeler. does it accurately reflect the events that occurred prior to that time? mr. wilcox. yes. mr. liebeler. i mark that letter as exhibit , on the deposition of mr. laurance r. wilcox, at dallas, tex., march , . i have initialed the copy in question, mr. wilcox, and would like to have you do the same thing if you would. mr. wilcox. [initials.] mr. liebeler. before we go on, i call your attention to the fact that this letter of december , , starts out by saying "this is to supplement my report of december in connection with newspaper article regarding messages and money order to ruby or oswald." do you have a copy of your report of december , referred to in exhibit ? mr. wilcox. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. may we mark that as exhibit no. on the deposition of mr. laurance r. wilcox, dallas, tex., march , ? mr. wilcox. [hands document to attorney.] mr. liebeler. i have initialed exhibit no. and you have done likewise, have you not? mr. wilcox. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. you had just indicated that you had talked to mr. hamblen upon your return concerning the newspaper story. would you tell us what happened next? mr. wilcox. i asked mr. hamblen if he had obtained the message from the bookkeeping department as i had requested he do, and he stated that he had not found it and did not have it and it wasn't available. on december , mr. semingsen, vice president of western union, was at my office, and at this time we interviewed several employees for the purpose of finding out if any of them could recall having seen oswald in our office. we also discussed the ruby money orders. mr. liebeler. can you tell us the names of the employees who were interviewed on december , , in connection with the possibility that oswald might have sent or received telegrams through your company? do you have a memorandum reflecting what happened? mr. wilcox. no, because what we did, we asked for statements from these people, and i have those statements and that was the result of that meeting. mr. liebeler. the meeting you referred to now is the meeting held in your office on december ? mr. wilcox. the meeting held in my office on december . mr. liebeler. i call your attention to a message that was sent by mr. semingsen to mr. j. h. waters in new york city, which has been attached as attachment no. to exhibit on mr. semingsen's deposition. i show you that message and ask you if that accurately reflects what occurred at the meeting in your office on december , ? mr. wilcox. this doesn't. mr. liebeler. you say it does not? mr. wilcox. this was pertaining to mr. ruby. this did not have anything to do with that. mr. liebeler. let me further point out to you, mr. wilcox, that we have statements of mr. hamblen dated december and december , , which are apparently addressed to you. i show you copies, first, of the statement dated december , , and ask you if you can remember the circumstances under which that statement was obtained from mr. hamblen? mr. wilcox. this statement was obtained---- mr. liebeler. the statement you are referring to is the statement dated december , ; is that correct? mr. wilcox. yes. this statement was obtained at the time i discussed the matter with mr. hamblen on december , monday. that was this statement. mr. liebeler. that visit with mr. hamblen is described in exhibit no. , your letter to mr. semingsen on december , , is that correct? mr. wilcox. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. and the statement of mr. hamblen, dated december , , was obtained at that time? that time being the first time that you talked to mr. hamblen after this matter appeared in the newspapers; is that correct? mr. wilcox. yes. mr. liebeler. do you have the original of mr. hamblen's statement of december , ? mr. wilcox. i can't find it in my file. i am wondering if it was sent to mr. semingsen's file, but we have gone through that. mr. liebeler. i show you a thermofax copy that has been provided to us, and ask you if that is an accurate copy of the original statement? mr. wilcox. yes. that was made in our office on the thermofax machine. mr. liebeler. let us mark the thermofax copy of the statement of mr. c. a. hamblen to mr. wilcox dated december , , as exhibit on the deposition of mr. laurance r. wilcox, at dallas, tex., on march , . i have initialed exhibit , mr. wilcox. will you do the same? mr. wilcox. [initials.] mr. liebeler. does the statement of mr. hamblen, exhibit no. , accurately reflect the conversation which you had with him on december , ? mr. wilcox. yes. mr. liebeler. did you prepare that statement yourself? mr. wilcox. no, sir; mr. hamblen prepared that. mr. liebeler. did mr. hamblen dictate it himself, or write it out? mr. wilcox. wrote it on the typewriter himself. mr. liebeler. now in the december , , statement, mr. hamblen says: "as i recall, several weeks ago mr. aubrey lewis had trouble paying this party a money order. he expected to get same without proper id. he was informed to get some id and come back and get paid, and as mr. lewis recalled he returned about hour later with navy id card and a library card and was paid a small amount with this id and after payment made, party left the office. mr. lewis remarked to me, i would like to pinch the heads off people of his character." do you recall discussing this with mr. hamblen on december , ? mr. wilcox. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. can you remember anything else that mr. hamblen might have said about this incident other than that which is reflected in the statement? mr. wilcox. no. mr. liebeler. do you recall discussing this statement with mr. lewis at any time? mr. wilcox. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. when did you first discuss it with mr. lewis? mr. wilcox. that is what i am trying to find right here. must have been on december that i talked to mr. lewis about it, and his statement addressed to me was written by himself. mr. liebeler. on december , ? mr. wilcox. on december , . mr. liebeler. do you have a copy of that statement? mr. wilcox. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. could we mark that as exhibit no. on the deposition of laurance r. wilcox, at dallas, tex., march , ? in this case you have actually provided me the original of mr. lewis' statement, is that correct? mr. wilcox. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. i have initialed exhibit no. and would like to have you do the same, if you would. mr. wilcox. [initials.] mr. liebeler. mr. lewis' statement refers to that portion of mr. hamblen's statement, dated december , , which we just read, does it not? mr. wilcox. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. and mr. lewis says that he does recall the difficulty he had paying a small money order to a gentleman who struck him as being a feminine type of person, but says he cannot remember the name of that person; is that correct? mr. wilcox. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. do you remember discussing that with mr. lewis to any extent other than as reflected on this statement? mr. wilcox. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. could you tell us what you said and what mr. lewis said about this? before you tell us what was said, this discussion that you are referring to was held on december , , or some other time? mr. wilcox. yes, sir; at that time. mr. liebeler. will you tell us what that conversation was? mr. wilcox. the conversation with mr. lewis had to do with trying to identify the person that he was supposed to have paid this money order to, and the one with which he had some difficulty in establishing identification. mr. liebeler. i want you to tell me exactly what happened in as great detail as you can remember it. now, at this conversation with mr. lewis, the possibility that this money order was to be delivered to someone at the ymca on ervay street in dallas was discussed, was it not? mr. wilcox. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. will you tell us all that you can remember about that aspect of the discussion that you had with mr. lewis? mr. wilcox. i have discussed the matter with mr. lewis regarding the money order which he was having difficulty in paying. he could not pay the money order because the recipient could not produce suitable identification. mr. lewis was a little hazy on the details about it, but was under the impression that it was a money order or a message in the nearby area, possibly on ervay street or at the ymca. we instituted a search for all money orders during this period, that might be the message to which mr. hamblen was making reference. mr. liebeler. that was the one with which mr. lewis had difficulty in paying; is that correct? mr. wilcox. yes. now, we found some messages. one in the amount of $ . one in the amount of $ . but neither of these were the money orders that mr. hamblen had reference to. mr. liebeler. how did you establish the fact that they were not the money orders? mr. wilcox. he looked at them and decided it wasn't the one, because we couldn't find anything that had reference to this particular identification that hamblen was talking about. mr. liebeler. mr. lewis looked at these telegrams; is that correct? mr. wilcox. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. does the telegram indicate what sort of identification was produced by the person to whom the money order was paid? mr. wilcox. well, there are several others in here. mr. liebeler. you are looking through a number of telegrams covering money orders; is that correct? mr. wilcox. going to different people at the ymca, but none of them was the money order message. none of them was a money order message that lewis could identify as being a money order of the type hamblen was describing. in other words, he couldn't find anything that fitted into that pattern at all. mr. liebeler. you discussed these money orders with mr. lewis after you obtained them from the files; is that correct? mr. wilcox. that's right. mr. lewis later told me that it might have been a money order draft that could have been paid to some individual in our town, and that the party holding the draft had presented it at our office for payment, but was having difficulty in producing suitable identification for us to cash the draft. in that event, we would not have any message or record of message in our file locally. mr. liebeler. if i understand you correctly, mr. wilcox, the situation which you just described would occur when a money order telegram had been delivered to some party at some other office, some office other than the dallas central office? mr. wilcox. that's right. mr. liebeler. and he would have the draft in his hand that would have been delivered to him by the telegraph company in some other office, and then he would come to the dallas central office and attempt to cash that draft; is that correct? mr. wilcox. yes. mr. liebeler. and mr. lewis said it is possible that the transaction with which he had such difficulty could have been a transaction such as the one we have described; is that correct? mr. wilcox. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. in that event, you would not have any record of it in the dallas office? mr. wilcox. no, sir. mr. liebeler. is it correct that you would not have any record of it in the dallas office even when the draft had been successfully cashed, as it apparently subsequently was in this case? mr. wilcox. no, sir. mr. liebeler. you would still not have any record of it? mr. wilcox. no, sir. mr. liebeler. now, you have produced money orders in the form of telegrams, transmitting money to individuals living at the ymca here in dallas. is it correct that these are the only telegrams which you were able to find addressed to the ymca or to anyone at the ymca during some period beginning on or about october , and running up to approximately the end of november ? mr. wilcox. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. did you, yourself, personally authorize or instruct that the search be conducted which produced these telegrams? mr. wilcox. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. that would have been a search through every single money order delivered through the dallas office through the month of october or november, , is that correct? mr. wilcox. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. these telegrams are the only that were addressed to the ymca? mr. wilcox. yes. mr. liebeler. now, the dates covered by the search would be october through the th of november ? or what was it, as best you can recall? mr. wilcox. the end of november, as i remember. mr. liebeler. beginning when? mr. wilcox. beginning the first part of october. mr. liebeler. it is a fact, is it not, that none of these telegrams are addressed to lee harvey oswald? mr. wilcox. no, sir; none of them are. mr. liebeler. or to anybody using any of mr. oswald's known aliases? mr. wilcox. no, sir. mr. liebeler. i think that we had better, for the record, indicate the names of the people to whom these telegrams are addressed. there is a telegram dated october , , addressed to george mcmurray, transmitting $ , is that correct? mr. wilcox. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. there is also a telegram dated october , , addressed to michael c. robinson, transmitting $ to mr. robinson at the ymca, is that correct? mr. wilcox. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. and there is a telegram dated october , , transmitting $ to james mcginley, is that right? mr. wilcox. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. also for the record we better indicate who sent these telegrams. the telegram to mr. mcmurray was sent by mrs. mildred mcmurray in plainsfield, n.j.; is that correct? mr. wilcox. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. the telegram to mr. robinson was sent by mrs. s. r. robinson, of charleston, s.c.; is that correct? mr. wilcox. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. the telegram to mr. mcginley was sent by cornelius mcginley of chicago; is that correct? mr. wilcox. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. there is a telegram dated october , , to mr. jack burge from rosalie a. burge, tulsa. okla., transmitting $ ; is that correct? mr. wilcox. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. there is also a telegram dated october , , to john a. casber from john casber of midland. tex., transmitting $ ? mr. wilcox. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. a telegram dated october , , to gary aue from mrs. g. c. o'quinn, ft. morgan, colo., transmitting $ . mr. wilcox. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. there is a telegram dated october , , to stanley s. qupiec from stayea houston of ware, mass., transmitting $ ; is that correct? mr. wilcox. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. there is also a telegram dated november , , to welton hayes from louis w. hayes, of rome, n.y., transmitting $ ; is that correct? mr. wilcox. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. and a telegram dated november either or . mr. wilcox. it would be november . this is a transmission, november . mr. liebeler. to john m. brandes, jr., from helen tuttle, san antonio, transmitting $ ; is that correct? mr. wilcox. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. and one dated november , , to frank or grace fitzell, from the akron dime bank in akron, ohio, transmitting $ ; is that correct? mr. wilcox. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. and one dated november , , to george mcmurray from mildred mcmurray, plainfield. n.j., transmitting $ ; is that correct? mr. wilcox. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. and the addresses in each case were located then at the ymca on north ervay in dallas; is that correct? mr. wilcox. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. those were the only money order telegrams to individuals at the ymca that you were able to find in the search of your records, and you are satisfied that those are the only money order telegrams in existence addressed to people in the ymca during that period; is that correct? mr. wilcox. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. now, mr. lewis' statement of december , , mentions that the individual with whom he had difficulty in paying the money order was a man of spanish descent, is that correct? mr. wilcox. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. did you have any discussion with mr. lewis about that? mr. wilcox. we may have had it at the time we read this statement, but i don't recall anything specific. mr. liebeler. did you have any discussion with mr. lewis as to whether he recognized this individual with whom he had difficulty in paying the money order, as lee harvey oswald, from pictures of oswald which appeared in the newspaper? mr. wilcox. i asked him about that and he said he couldn't describe or associate the party to the extent that he could associate it with oswald's picture or anything like that. mr. liebeler. he just had no recognition? mr. wilcox. other than that he had some difficulty in paying a money order. mr. liebeler. now, as a result of these events that followed mr. hamblen's statement to the newspaper reporter and the subsequent investigation that was requested or instigated by the fbi and the secret service and other investigatory agencies, you conducted certain searches of certain files in your office in an attempt to locate any money orders that oswald might have received, or any telegrams that oswald might have sent during certain periods; is that correct? mr. wilcox. yes; i can give you those dates. mr. liebeler. let me show you exhibit , which is a memorandum from mr. semingsen, and ask you if that memorandum accurately sets forth the dates and the checks that were made of the files in the dallas and irving, tex., offices of your company to determine whether or not oswald had received or sent any telegrams? mr. wilcox. yes, sir; that's right. mr. liebeler. mr. semingsen testified this morning that the paying office--that is, the office through which a money order is delivered, maintains a chronological record or file of all money orders passing through that office; is that correct? mr. wilcox. that's right. mr. liebeler. it is my understanding that you caused the files for both dallas and irving to be searched for the periods indicated in exhibit ? mr. wilcox. that's right. mr. liebeler. you were unable to find any money order payable to lee harvey oswald or o. h. lee or alex james hidell; is that correct? mr. wilcox. that's correct. mr. liebeler. is it possible that money orders could be sent to someone just by using initials or some shorthand name? mr. wilcox. no; you never see anything because you would have no way to identify the man or associate it that you are paying it to them correctly, associate it with any identification that he might have. mr. liebeler. since each individual must produce identification at the time the money order is paid, the money order is naturally in the full name? mr. wilcox. correct. they could be accepting it for someone--it might not be their correct name, but they could have some identification that, if it was just a small money order, but we can't change that identification. if it meets what shows on the money order, then we pay it. mr. liebeler. but you have never heard of a situation where a money order is paid to somebody just addressed to him by initials or something like that? mr. wilcox. no. mr. liebeler. how many offices, approximately, does the western union office have in dallas? mr. wilcox. there are eight branch offices. mr. liebeler. plus a central office? mr. wilcox. plus a central office. mr. liebeler. is it possible to receive money orders through the branch office? mr. wilcox. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. are the files of money orders received through branch offices kept in the branch offices, or the dallas central office? mr. wilcox. kept at our main office. mr. liebeler. so, that the search that you made of the records of the central office would include money orders that were received through any branch office located within the city of dallas, is that correct? mr. wilcox. that's right. mr. liebeler. you said before that your district covered not only the city of dallas, but surrounding communities including irving? mr. wilcox. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. are the records relating to money orders received through these other offices of suburban communities located or kept in the suburban offices or the dallas central office? mr. wilcox. in this case, this was an agency office and it would be--the records were kept at the irving agency office. we did search those records at the irving agency office. mr. liebeler. that fact is indicated in exhibit , is it not? mr. wilcox. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. the records of telegrams or money orders received through other suburban offices such as garland, for example, would also be kept in the garland office, would they not? mr. wilcox. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. but no search was made of any suburban office other than irving; is that correct? mr. wilcox. that's right. mr. liebeler. mr. semingsen's memorandum also indicates that a search was made of the files in fort worth and in new orleans, but you have no direct personal knowledge of what happened at those offices, do you? mr. wilcox. no, sir. mr. liebeler. we also have here a statement from mr. hamblen dated december , . do you have the original of that statement? mr wilcox. yes; i do have. mr. liebeler. we will mark the original as exhibit no. on the deposition of laurance r. wilcox, at dallas, tex., march , . i have initialed exhibit no. , mr. wilcox, and i would like you do the same. mr. wilcox. [initials.] mr. liebeler. this statement was apparently taken on december , . do you recall the circumstances under which it was given? mr. wilcox. this was following a meeting and discussion that we held on december , at which time we discussed the money orders and messages with mr. hamblen, mrs. mcclure, and mr. lewis. mr. liebeler. who was present at this discussion other than the individuals you just mentioned and yourself? (mr. wilcox phoned his office re: correct date of meeting.) mr. wilcox. i did hold this meeting. mr. liebeler. let the record indicate that mr. wilcox has just conferred telephonically with mr. semingsen and wishes now to clarify the statements concerning the time on which certain meetings were held with the employees. mr. wilcox. i did hold the meetings with these people on december , and did obtain these statements, including the statement from mrs. mcclure, mr. lewis, both indicated as december , and the statement from mr. hamblen which is dated december . following this meeting i endeavored to find the message or messages that mr. hamblen was referring to, which he insisted mrs. mcclure had accepted from mr. oswald. i did extract from our files all messages matching the message numbers on the cash sheet prepared by mrs. mcclure. mr. liebeler. did the fbi ask you to do this because mr. hamblen said that a message with which mrs. mcclure had difficulty was given to her by a man who hamblen thought was oswald, and that the message was one to washington, d.c., specifically to the secretary of the navy---- mr. wilcox. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. and that it was accounted for on mrs. mcclure's sheet as a night letter that was set forth on her cash sheet; is that correct? mr. wilcox. that's right. mr. liebeler. so you then got all of the telegrams that were listed on mrs. mcclure's cash sheets; is that correct? mr. wilcox. from the st of november through the november . we could not find any such messages. however, we did extract all messages going to washington, d.c., regardless of the names to whom they were sent, or signed, including some messages going to other points, because of their peculiar type of printing. now, would you like to see those messages? mr. liebeler. yes, sir; i would. let me ask you specifically if the period covered in terms of this extraction was from october? mr. wilcox. from november . mr. liebeler. from november ? mr. wilcox. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. you picked that period because mr. hamblen said that he thought the event occurred about days prior to the assassination; is that correct? mr. wilcox. that's right. now, i think you have the only thermofax of mrs. mcclure's. would you want the original? mr. liebeler. yes; i do want to mark the original statement of mrs. mcclure, dated december , , which has been previously referred to by mr. wilcox. i will mark it as exhibit on the deposition of mr. laurance r. wilcox at dallas, tex., on march , . i have initialed that exhibit, mr. wilcox, and would like to have you do the same. mr. wilcox. [initials.] mr. liebeler. who prepared mrs. mcclure's statement? mr. wilcox. mrs. mcclure wrote that. mr. liebeler. she typed it on the typewriter herself? mr. wilcox. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. were you present at the time she prepared it? mr. wilcox. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. did you discuss these incidents with her prior to the statement? mr. wilcox. only during the course of the meeting that she attended in my office. mr. liebeler. during the course of that time, mrs. mcclure indicated to you, did she not, that she had no recollection of any of the events described by mr. hamblen concerning the message allegedly sent to washington, d.c.? mr. wilcox. that's right. mr. liebeler. let's mark these telegrams as exhibits through . i have initialed each one of them and would like to have you do the same. i have not indicated on each one of them in detail. it is on your deposition and on the dates, as i have on the others, but that fact will appear from the record. mr. wilcox. [initials.] mr. liebeler. you have now provided me with six telegrams, cables which have been marked for identification as exhibits through , and it is my understanding that these telegrams and cables were all shown to mr. hamblen and he was unable to identify any of them as answering the description of the telegram or cablegram with which mrs. mcclure had had difficulty, and which mr. hamblen thought had been sent by a person resembling lee harvey oswald, is that correct? mr. wilcox. that's right. mr. liebeler. and a thorough search of the files along the lines that you have previously indicated was unable to produce any other telegrams even remotely falling into the category described by mr. hamblen; i.e., a telegram to washington, d.c. or in a peculiar hand script such as described by mr. hamblen to any destination, whether it be washington or otherwise; is that correct? mr. wilcox. that's right. mr. liebeler. now, you have provided me with a letter from yourself to mr. semingsen, dated december , , which we will mark as exhibit , on deposition of laurance r. wilcox, at dallas, tex., march , . i have initialed that exhibit and ask you to do the same, sir. mr. wilcox. [initials.] mr. liebeler. and ask you if you prepared the original of that letter on or about december , ? mr. wilcox. that's right. mr. liebeler. you sent the original of it to mr. semingsen, did you not? mr. wilcox. yes, sir; that's right. mr. liebeler. and the letter accurately sets forth the events preceding that date which we have been discussing here, does it not? mr. wilcox. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. you have also provided me with a copy of a letter from yourself to mr. semingsen, dated december , , to which is attached the original of statement from mrs. betty bedwell, dated december , , and a. i. english, dated december , . i notice that mr. english's statement is not signed. mr. wilcox. [signs.] mr. liebeler. and i ask you if the original of it was signed at the time you received it? mr. wilcox. no, sir; he just signed this on the typewriter to me. mr. liebeler. no; he did not himself sign it? mr. wilcox. no. mr. liebeler. you have indicated below that it was in effect signed by mr. english when he delivered it to you? mr. wilcox. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. also attached is a statement of miss bess mildred francis, dated december , . also attached is a statement of doyle e. lane, dated december , ; and one of mr. e. t. pirtle, dated december , ; and one of ward townsley dated december , . did you receive those statements from the individuals thus described? mr. wilcox. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. we have marked the letter described above, together with the attachments just described as exhibit on the deposition of mr. laurance r. wilcox at dallas, tex., on march , . i have initialed the first page of that exhibit and would like to have you do the same. mr. wilcox. [initials.] mr. liebeler. did you send the original of your letter dated december , , to mr. semingsen on or about that date? mr. wilcox. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. the statements made in that letter are true and correct to the best of your knowledge, are they not? mr. wilcox. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. you have also given me the original of a statement dated december , , of mr. doyle e. lane. was that also attached to your letter of december , , to mr. semingsen? mr. wilcox. no, sir. mr. liebeler. did you receive yourself from mr. lane the statement just described? mr. wilcox. yes, sir. mr. liebeler. let me mark it as exhibit on this deposition. would you initial the statement of mr. lane which we have marked ? mr. wilcox. yes, sir. [initials.] mr. liebeler. thank you. you previously testified, mr. wilcox, that you had a meeting on or about december , , with mr. hamblen, mrs. mcclure, and mr. lewis in regard to the meeting we have been discussing, and you also testified that you thought you had an additional meeting on december , , at which mr. semingsen was present. would you care to elaborate on that? mr. wilcox. the meeting as you have outlined--the meetings on the dates you have outlined are correct. the meeting on december , at which mr. semingsen attended was for the purpose of confronting mr. hamblen with the messages that we had extracted that were going to washington, or those which were in peculiar print, that had been accepted by mrs. mcclure during the period of st of november until about november . mr. hamblen, of course, could not identify any of these telegrams as having been the message he described in his statement of december and december . mr. liebeler. did you form a conclusion at that time as to the accuracy of mr. hamblen's recollection concerning the events which he had related to you and to the press? mr. wilcox. yes. mr. liebeler. what was that conclusion? mr. wilcox. that this whole thing was a figment of mr. hamblen's imagination. i am fearful that he was just emotionally upset over the events as they transpired, and this may have been the factor causing him to say what he had said about the acceptance of the messages and the money order, and possibly have something to do with his statements to the press. mr. liebeler. as i understand you, you were perfectly satisfied at that time that oswald had never in fact been in the office either to receive money orders or to send any telegram of the type described by mr. hamblen, or as far as you have been able to determine, any other telegram; is that correct? mr. wilcox. that's right. mr. liebeler. at this point i can't think of any further questions, mr. wilcox. if you can think of anything that you would like to say that in your opinion would be of assistance to the commission in its work, please indicate that at this time? can you think of anything else? mr. wilcox. i can't think of anything else now, but if i do, i will be happy to pass it along to you. mr. liebeler. if you do think of anything subsequently, call it to my attention and i would appreciate it very much. thank you very much, mr. wilcox. you have been very helpful and very cooperative. the commission appreciates the cooperation you and western union have shown. thank you very much. transcriber's notes: punctuation and spelling were made consistent when a predominant preference was found in this book; otherwise they were not changed. misspellings in quoted evidence not changed; misspellings that could be due to mispronunciations were not changed. some simple typographical errors were corrected. inconsistent hyphenation of compound words retained. ambiguous end-of-line hyphens retained. occasional uses of "mr." for "mrs." and of "mrs." for "mr." corrected. dubious repeated words, (e.g., "what took place by way of of conversation?") retained. several unbalanced quotation marks not remedied. occasional periods that should be question marks, and question marks that probably should be periods, not changed. occasional periods that should be commas, and commas that should be periods, were changed only when they clearly had been misprinted (at the end of a paragraph or following a speaker's name in small-caps at the beginning of a line). some commas and semi-colons were printed so faintly that they appear to be periods or colons: some were found and corrected, but some almost certainly remain. the index and illustrated exhibits volumes of this series may not be available at project gutenberg. page : "had an acquaintance with the oswald's" was printed that way. page : "thinking she said this latter" probably should be "later". page : "october , " is the date printed in testimony; oswald's actual date of birth was october , . page : "ever been a subscribed to the militant" should be either "subscriber" or "ever subscribed". page : "examine watts' no. " probably should be "dobbs' no. ". page : sentence beginning "if my voice is low, young lady" is unattributed, but in context, probably was spoken by mr. jenner. page : "or anyone of a number of" was printed that way. page : "through his hurrying be made" perhaps should be "he made". page : "nvd" is either misprint or mispronunciation for "mvd". page : "you know, what night or" probably should be "that night". page : "rubenstein" is spelled "rubinstein" elsewhere in this and other volumes of the hearings. page : "to be best of your recollection" was printed that way. page : "bogard was bound to own" probably should be "found". page : "vending machines. what kind of vending machines?" was missing the period; changed here. www.history-matters.com. transcriber's note: stylized "l" is denoted as =l=. italics are represented by _underscores_. investigation of the assassination of president john f. kennedy hearings before the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy pursuant to executive order , an executive order creating a commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of the late president john f. kennedy and the subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and s.j. res. , th congress, a concurrent resolution conferring upon the commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas _volume_ xii united states government printing office washington, d.c. u.s. government printing office, washington: for sale in complete sets by the superintendent of documents, u.s. government printing office washington, d.c., president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy chief justice earl warren, _chairman_ senator richard b. russell senator john sherman cooper representative hale boggs representative gerald r. ford mr. allen w. dulles mr. john j. mccloy j. lee rankin, _general counsel_ _assistant counsel_ francis w. h. adams joseph a. ball david w. belin william t. coleman, jr. melvin aron eisenberg burt w. griffin leon d. hubert, jr. albert e. jenner, jr. wesley j. liebeler norman redlich w. david slawson arlen specter samuel a. stern howard p. willens[a] [a] mr. willens also acted as liaison between the commission and the department of justice. _staff members_ phillip barson edward a. conroy john hart ely alfred goldberg murray j. laulicht arthur marmor richard m. mosk john j. o'brien stuart pollak alfredda scobey charles n. shaffer, jr. biographical information on the commissioners and the staff can be found in the commission's _report_. preface the testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume xii: charles batchelor, jesse e. curry, j. e. decker, w. b. frazier, o. a. jones, jack revill, james maurice solomon, m. w. stevenson, and cecil e. talbert, charles oliver arnett, buford lee beaty, alvin r. brock, b. h. combest, kenneth hudson croy, wilbur jay cutchshaw, napoleon j. daniels, william j. harrison, harold b. holly, jr., harry m. kriss, roy lee lowery, frank m. martin, billy joe maxey, logan w. mayo, louis d. miller, william j. newman, bobby g. patterson, rio s. pierce, james a. putnam, willie b. slack, don francis steele, roy eugene vaughn, james c. watson, g. e. worley, and woodrow wiggins, dallas law enforcement officers who were responsible for planning and executing the transfer of lee harvey oswald from the dallas city jail to the dallas county jail; and don ray archer, barnard s. clardy, and patrick trevore dean, who participated in the arrest and questioning of jack l. ruby. contents page preface v testimony of-- charles batchelor jesse e. curry j. e. (bill) decker w. b. frazier o. a. jones jack revill james maurice solomon m. w. stevenson cecil e. talbert charles oliver arnett buford lee beaty alvin r. brock b. h. combest kenneth hudson croy wilbur jay cutchshaw napoleon j. daniels william j. harrison harold b. holly, jr harry m. kriss roy lee lowery frank m. martin billy joe maxey logan w. mayo louis d. miller william j. newman bobby g. patterson rio s. pierce james a. putnam willie b. slack don francis steele roy eugene vaughn james c. watson g. e. worley woodrow wiggins don ray archer barnard s. clardy patrick trevore dean exhibits introduced archer exhibit no.: page arnett exhibit no.: batchelor exhibit no.: beaty exhibit no.: brock exhibit no.: clardy exhibit no.: combest exhibit no.: croy exhibit no.: curry exhibit no.: cutchshaw exhibit no.: daniels exhibit no.: dean exhibit no.: -a decker exhibit no.: frazier exhibit no.: harrison exhibit no.: holly exhibit no.: jones exhibit no.: kriss exhibit no.: lowery exhibit no.: martin exhibit no.: maxey exhibit no.: mayo exhibit no.: miller exhibit no.: newman exhibit no.: -a -b -c -d -e patterson exhibit no.: pierce exhibit no.: putnam exhibit no.: slack exhibit no.: solomon exhibit no.: steele exhibit no.: stevenson exhibit no.: talbert exhibit no.: vaughn exhibit no.: watson exhibit no.: wiggins exhibit no.: worley exhibit no.: hearings before the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy testimony of assistant chief charles batchelor the testimony of assistant chief charles batchelor was taken at : p.m., on march , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. burt w. griffin, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. griffin. my name is burt griffin. i am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the president's commission. under the provisions of executive order , dated november , , and the rules of procedure adopted by the commission in conformance with the executive order and the joint resolution, i have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, chief batchelor. i state to you now that the general nature of the commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of president kennedy and the subsequent violent death of lee harvey oswald. in particular as to you, chief batchelor, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the security surrounding the protection of lee harvey oswald and any other pertinent facts that you may know about the general inquiry having to do with the death of president kennedy. chief batchelor, you have appeared here today by virtue of a general request made by the general counsel of the staff of the president's commission. under the rules adopted by the commission, you are entitled to a -day written notice prior to the taking of this deposition. but the rules adopted by the commission also provide that any witness may waive this notice. do you now waive this notice? chief batchelor. yes. mr. griffin. would you raise your right hand and be sworn? do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? chief batchelor. i do. mr. griffin. will you state your name for the record? chief batchelor. charles batchelor. mr. griffin. what is your age? chief batchelor. fifty-eight. mr. griffin. where do you live, mr. batchelor? chief batchelor. franklin avenue, dallas, tex. mr. griffin. what is your occupation? chief batchelor. i am assistant chief of police of the dallas police department. mr. griffin. how long have you been with the dallas police department? chief batchelor. since may , . mr. griffin. how long have you been assistant chief? chief batchelor. since january , . mr. griffin. of course you and i have spoken at some length earlier this afternoon. in that conversation, we discussed your activities from the time that you learned that president kennedy was shot on november until saturday, november , when you first heard something about the movement of lee harvey oswald from the dallas city jail to the dallas county jail. i believe you told me that sometime on saturday night you were confronted by some newspaper reporters with respect to the movement of lee harvey oswald? chief batchelor. yes, sir. mr. griffin. would you tell us, chief batchelor, about what time of the night these reporters approached you? chief batchelor. this must have been somewhere around : or o'clock at night. mr. griffin. where were you? chief batchelor. i was in the administrative offices of the police department at headquarters. mr. griffin. that is on the third floor? on the third floor of the police and---- chief batchelor. yes, sir. mr. griffin. were you inside your own office? chief batchelor. no; i was out in the outer office of the administrative offices where the secretaries are. mr. griffin. do you recall how many reporters confronted you? chief batchelor. there were two of them. mr. griffin. do you recall who they were? chief batchelor. no; i don't recall who they were now. it was a rather casual request. they asked, or they said, rather, that they were hungry and hadn't had anything to eat and they wanted to go out to dinner, and they didn't want to miss anything if we were going to move the prisoner. and i told them i had no idea when they were going to move the prisoner. about that time chief curry came up and he told them, he said, "oh, i think if you fellows are back here by o'clock in the morning you won't miss anything." so they left with that and went to eat. mr. griffin. were there any other reporters around at that time? chief batchelor. no, sir. then later, just a very few minutes later, chief curry decided, well, he might tell the rest of the people out in the hall so they won't be hanging around, because they were apparently doing nothing, just waiting. so he went out and told them that if they would come back by o'clock in the morning, they were not going to move the prisoner in the meantime. mr. griffin. did you talk with chief curry after he first spoke to these two newspaper reporters? chief batchelor. you mean with reference to the movement of the prisoner? mr. griffin. yes. chief batchelor. he told me that he didn't know exactly when they would move him, but he thought homicide bureau was about through with questioning him, but he knew that captain fritz wanted to question him again in the morning, and that after he had questioned him, why, we would move him. mr. griffin. where did that conversation take place? chief batchelor. in the administrative offices. one thing i think i omitted. from the time that he told these reporters that if they were to come back by o'clock in the morning, he didn't think they would miss anything, he went in and discussed it with captain fritz as to how he was progressing with the interrogation and whether or not he thought he would be through with him in the morning. mr. griffin. you mean this was between the time he---- chief batchelor. before he went out and announced it to the rest of the press. mr. griffin. about how much time elapsed, would you say, from the time he talked to the two reporters and the time he made the general announcement? chief batchelor. oh, i would estimate maybe minutes; no longer. mr. griffin. now, in between times, did he talk with you about the movement? chief batchelor. no, sir. mr. griffin. afterwards, did he talk with you about the proposed movement? chief batchelor. you mean the mechanics of moving him? mr. griffin. anything? chief batchelor. no, sir. mr. griffin. what was the next thing you learned about the proposed movement of oswald? chief batchelor. i just assumed that we would move him the next morning sometime after o'clock. i didn't know exactly when, and i came down the next morning around o'clock. mr. griffin. did you learn anything about the movement between the time chief curry made the general announcement to the press and the time that you went home that night? chief batchelor. no, sir. mr. griffin. was there any conversation around the building? chief batchelor. not to my knowledge. mr. griffin. was there anybody else present from the police department when you talked with the two newspaper reporters? chief batchelor. there were some secretaries in the office. this was not addressed to me particularly. they might have overheard it. we were in the office, in the outer office nearest chief curry's office at this time, and i believe mrs. ann schreiber was holding down that desk. mr. griffin. what time did you leave the police department on saturday night or sunday morning? chief batchelor. it was, i believe, on saturday night, or sunday morning. it was around midnight. it wasn't quite as late as it was the night before when i left. mr. griffin. so would it be your estimate that about hours elapsed between the chief's press conference and the time you left? chief batchelor. i would say maybe not quite that long, but that is not too far off. mr. griffin. chief, maybe this will help you a little bit to refresh your recollection. chief batchelor. i want to take that back. it was earlier than that when i left there on saturday night. it was quite late on friday night, but it was around : when i left saturday night. mr. griffin. are you referring to this, correcting this estimate? are you referring to this report dated november d? chief batchelor. i think the times in this are fairly accurate. mr. griffin. chief, i want to hand you what has already been marked for identification as stevenson exhibit . can you identify that? chief batchelor. yes. this was a report signed by myself, chief lumpkin, and chief stevenson which was the result of a staff résumé made within a few days after oswald was shot. it was for the purpose of bringing together the facts and times and elements of events in a chronological order as we all remembered them. some of the times, particularly with reference to the president's arrival, which had to do with meeting with some secret service people and other groups, and some of this we were a little bit hazy on at first and we went back and checked some facts. as an example, we checked the baker hotel schedule on a room that was reserved for a meeting that was held, so we could be sure what time this meeting was, and things of that nature. mr. griffin. i see. the members of the police department held a meeting at the baker hotel sometime over the weekend? chief batchelor. no. the hostess committee of the city which was hosting the president's arrival and arranging for the luncheon, it was kind of a planning committee, and we were asked, or i was asked to one of these meetings with some of the secret service people. so this was a reference point for some of our thinking when this happened that we could relate some other things. mr. griffin. now your report indicates that you left saturday night at : p.m. between the time that chief curry made his announcement to the press and you left at : p.m., were you confronted by any other newspaper people about the movement of oswald? chief batchelor. no, sir. as a matter of fact, we left not too long after this because after this announcement was made, the press began to leave themselves. the third floor became fairly quiet and there wasn't anybody up there to speak of and it just died out. mr. griffin. were you confronted by anybody after the chief made his announcement with respect to oswald? chief batchelor. no, sir; not that i recall. mr. griffin. do you recall how you arrived at the time at : , stated in the report? was that based on your records? chief batchelor. that was fresh in my mind when we wrote this report. mr. griffin. now, who was left in charge of the police department that night after you left at : ? chief batchelor. we have a night chief who comes on at o'clock in the afternoon and he works until in the morning. mr. griffin. do you recall who it was that night? chief batchelor. well, there is only one. it would have been chief jack tanner. mr. griffin. who would then replace him at o'clock in the morning? chief batchelor. no one. there is a, well, i say no one. there is an inspector also who works around the clock. i don't recall which inspector was on duty that night, but there is an inspector on duty at night around the clock. mr. griffin. i notice--if you want to refer to your report on page , the report indicates that you received a telephone call at your home about : in the morning from captain talbert. can you tell us what that call was about? chief batchelor. yes, sir. he called and informed me that he had gotten a call, and he didn't tell me at the time where he got it; he said an anonymous call. later i learned it came from the fbi, and they in turn had called him. that about a hundred men were going to take the prisoner oswald and they didn't want to get any policeman hurt. so i told him to send a squad by chief curry's house and inform him about it. and at that moment we weren't concerned about him in the jail. we were concerned about him in the transfer. mr. griffin. why did talbert call you rather than some other member of the police department? chief batchelor. he tried to call chief curry and he couldn't get him to answer his phone. i guess he was dog-tired and he couldn't get him up. and i told him to send a squad car by and tell him. mr. griffin. i see. did you have any discussion with him at that point who had responsibility to make this decision? did you feel you had the responsibility to give instructions on the basis of having received this report that some men were going to try to go after oswald? did you feel you had any responsibility to take any protective action? chief batchelor. at that moment? mr. griffin. yes. chief batchelor. no. the way it came to me, it was my feeling that this was to happen when we attempted to transfer him, not to come up to the jail and get him. mr. griffin. what did you do after you received that phone call? chief batchelor. i got up and dressed to come down to the office. mr. griffin. what time did you arrive down at the office? chief batchelor. about o'clock. mr. griffin. what did you do when you got to the office? chief batchelor. chief stevenson and i got there about the same time. i parked my car in the basement and we walked into the city hall or into the police station, and we noticed a television camera set up in the areaway leading into the garage. i made the comment that they would have to do something about the television camera because it was right in the path where they would bring the prisoner out. there was no one around the camera. it was just sitting there. mr. griffin. i want to hand you here, chief, a diagram of the inside of the basement garage area. do you have a pencil or anything that you can mark with? chief batchelor. yes. the camera--can i mark here? mr. griffin. yes. chief batchelor. the camera was sitting right here. mr. griffin. would you put a "c" there so we know it is a camera. chief batchelor. [complies.] mr. griffin. now, what television station had this camera there? chief batchelor. it was krld. mr. griffin. what makes you think it was krld? chief batchelor. i just seem to recall that in my mind the letters on the side of the camera. i could be wrong. it could have been a wbap camera. mr. griffin. was the camera manned? chief batchelor. no, sir. mr. griffin. were there any other people in the basement area at that time? chief batchelor. no, sir. mr. griffin. who was it that you instructed to move the camera? chief batchelor. i didn't instruct anybody at that moment. we merely commented it was going to be moved, but instructed it to be moved later when we came back down. mr. griffin. now, what did you do after you passed the camera? chief batchelor. went up to the office. mr. griffin. how did you go? chief batchelor. went through the basement and into the elevator and went up. mr. griffin. you went up to the third floor? chief batchelor. yes. mr. griffin. to your office. do you remember what conversation you had with chief stevenson along the way? chief batchelor. well, we were commenting about that camera and that they were going to have to move it, and we were going to have to man that basement. but at the moment, plans hadn't jelled as to when we would move him. actually, back in our minds, i suppose, was the idea that when the time came, that the sheriff's department would probably move him, because this is customary in moving a prisoner. they normally come down and get the prisoner. mr. griffin. did you discuss with chief stevenson anywhere along the way upstairs this phone call which you received from mr. talbert earlier in the morning? chief batchelor. yes; i think i mentioned that to him. mr. griffin. do you remember anything about that conversation? chief batchelor. not anything especially. mr. griffin. do you recall whether he knew or stevenson knew at the time you saw him down in the basement that there had been such a threat? chief batchelor. i believe he did. i think someone from one of his bureaus had called him, if i remember right. it was rather common knowledge that a call like that had been received. mr. griffin. as you walked to the elevator in the basement, do you recall whether or not there were any people in the basement? chief batchelor. no; i don't remember anybody except those people in the jail office. mr. griffin. the people in the jail office were employees of the jail? chief batchelor. they were the jail crew that stay on all night long; yes. not the all night. these would have been the morning shift just come on. mr. griffin. at what time did that morning shift come on? chief batchelor. at o'clock. mr. griffin. chief, would you take this diagram and mark on there the time that you believe you saw that camera? chief batchelor. [marks.] mr. griffin. i am marking this, "dallas, tex., chief batchelor, march , , deposition exhibit no. ." as you walked into the building and went up to the third floor, did you see anybody in the garage area or along the ramp or near the record room other than police department employees? chief batchelor. no, sir. mr. griffin. now, what happened when you got up to the third floor? what did you do? chief batchelor. i went to my office. i don't remember exactly what i did. chief curry came in very shortly after that, and i went into this office and we started discussing the possibility of moving the prisoner. mr. griffin. now will you try to remember who else was in the office with chief curry when you walked in? chief batchelor. no one. mr. griffin. did anybody come in after you? chief batchelor. stevenson came in a little bit later. mr. griffin. how much later, would you say? chief batchelor. oh, or minutes later, if i remember. mr. griffin. did anybody else come in after that during this conversation? chief batchelor. i don't recall that they did. i don't believe there was. mr. griffin. did chief lunday come in? chief batchelor. no. chief lunday didn't come down until later in the morning, i believe. mr. griffin. did captain talbert join you? chief batchelor. no. mr. griffin. was captain talbert still on duty when you arrived at the police department? chief batchelor. captain talbert was on duty that morning. he came on at o'clock. mr. griffin. talbert came on at , but as i understand it, talbert called you at your home about : . how did that happen? chief batchelor. well, he is a platoon commander, and a platoon commander comes down early before the rest of the men to get his detail, and he had gotten this information from the night commander. the information came into them before they came on duty, and someone had tried to call chief curry. when they came down, they told me about it and i called them and i told them to send a squad by and wake chief curry up and tell him. mr. griffin. what platoon was talbert in charge of? chief batchelor. the second platoon that month. mr. griffin. by "platoon," what do you mean? chief batchelor. the first platoon is the night platoon that comes on theoretically at midnight. it actually comes on at o'clock the preceding day and it goes to o'clock the next morning. mr. griffin. what area does a platoon man? chief batchelor. it mans the city. this is a uniform platoon. we have three substations and they change the same way. the substations are under the platoon commander, and each of the substations has a lieutenant in charge of the substation who accounts to the platoon commander, who is a captain. mr. griffin. tell me if my understanding is right, that talbert at this point had operational responsibility for all the men throughout the city? chief batchelor. that's right. mr. griffin. sort of like the executive officer on a ship or something? chief batchelor. that's right. mr. griffin. tell us what your conversation was with chief curry up in his office when you first went in? chief batchelor. i asked him, i believe, if he had called sheriff decker. mr. griffin. what did he say? chief batchelor. he said, no, he hadn't, but he was fixing to do that. and he did do it. he picked up the phone and called sheriff decker. this was--i got down around o'clock--i mean around o'clock, correction--and it must have been somewhere around : or : when he called decker. mr. griffin. how long did you talk with him before he called sheriff decker? chief batchelor. just a few minutes. he called sheriff decker, and decker said--and i was hearing only one side of the conversation, but i gathered that decker had told him he thought he was going to move the prisoner. curry said, "well, if you want us to, we will." so he said, "i think you've got more manpower than we have. you move him if you will." then we had discussed this threat that had been received and---- mr. griffin. you and---- chief batchelor. curry. mr. griffin. did curry mention the threat to decker in the telephone conversation? chief batchelor. i just don't remember whether he did or not. i would think reasonably that he did, but i don't remember. mr. griffin. when chief curry talked with decker, did he make any mention of what time oswald would be moved? chief batchelor. he didn't set any definite time. he told him that captain fritz wanted to question oswald again that morning, and that when he got through, they would be ready to move him, and he thought this would be sometime after o'clock. mr. griffin. had fritz begun to question oswald when curry was on the telephone with decker? chief batchelor. i really don't know. shortly after we made the decision, curry went back to the office and they were questioning him. mr. griffin. now, when curry and decker talked on the telephone on this occasion, did curry say anything about how oswald would be moved? chief batchelor. well, i think he called him back later and told him how after we had talked, because we hadn't made the decision to use an armored car to move him, armored truck, until after we had determined that he wasn't going to move him and it was going to be our job. then we decided to discuss the armored car. mr. griffin. did chief curry have any discussion with decker in this first telephone conversation about the route that would be followed in moving oswald? chief batchelor. i don't think so, because i am sure we didn't know at that moment just exactly what we would do. he went back and talked to fritz about the advisability of this later, and we discussed it, and stevenson came up and discussed it, and our plan was to take him down elm street originally. we would go out of the basement to commerce, commerce to central expressway, north on central to elm, and then west on elm to houston, and then go back east to the jail entrance door of the county jail and come in. this was our original plan. mr. griffin. in this first telephone conversation with decker was stevenson present in curry's office? chief batchelor. i don't believe he was. i know he wasn't when we started. he may have walked in there while i was talking to him, but i believe curry and i was the only ones present. mr. griffin. when curry finished talking with decker and he hung up the phone, did he say anything to you? chief batchelor. yes; he said obviously decker wants us to move him. mr. griffin. what did you say? chief batchelor. i said we'd better start making some arrangements then. and he said, "what do you think about getting an armored car, an armored truck?" and i said, "i think i know where i can get one." mr. griffin. where was that? chief batchelor. this was from the armored motor car service. mr. griffin. where is that located? chief batchelor. it is on--what is the name of that street? mr. griffin. in the downtown area? chief batchelor. it just borders on the downtown area. it is off of ross avenue. mr. griffin. north or south? chief batchelor. it is north of ross avenue. i should think of the name of the street. it is an old street here, but i just can't think of it offhand. mr. griffin. what is the name of the armored car company again? chief batchelor. armored motor car service. it is actually a fort worth company who services both dallas and fort worth, and they have an office here, too. mr. griffin. go ahead. chief batchelor. after this, i told him that i thought i could get one. i then went to the city directory to see who was in charge here, where i might get ahold of his phone number. and i called the vice president at his home. this was on sunday morning. it was before he had gone to church. it must have been somewhere around o'clock. mr. griffin. can you give us the name of the vice president? chief batchelor. it was mr. fleming. mr. fleming was the vice president, and i talked to him at his home, and he told me that he would be glad to furnish us one. as a matter of fact, he had two trucks which we could take our choice. one was a small truck, but would accommodate only one passenger in the back. the other one was what they call an overland truck, and it had seats on either side in the back and would accommodate several people. and i said, "i don't know whether this will go down to the basement or not." but i asked him how tall it was and he said he didn't know, but he would have it measured and let me know. and i told him that i would find out what the height of the ramp was. we have a low place in the ramp as you go down at the bottom of the ramp, and it is only feet inches tall at that point, so i found out what that height was, and i called him back. mr. griffin. now at the time you first talked with mr. fleming, did you indicate to him what time you would need the armored vehicle? chief batchelor. yes; i told him sometime around or a little after. and he said he would get there as quickly as possible. he had to call a crew down to man the truck. and mr. hall, who is their dallas representative here, brought the truck down with another driver driving the small one. mr. griffin. when was the truck brought down? chief batchelor. it was brought down--probably it wasn't at o'clock, because they didn't get there that early. it must have been closer to o'clock when they finally got down there with it. mr. griffin. did you say anything else to mr. fleming during this first telephone conversation? did you tell him anything about the route? chief batchelor. i don't believe that i told him the route we were going to take, no. i know i didn't tell him. mr. griffin. while you were on the telephone with mr. fleming, where was chief curry, if you know? chief batchelor. he was in his office. i called mr. fleming from my office. i left his office and went into my office and called him. mr. griffin. how about chief stevenson, where was he? chief batchelor. he was either in his office or in chief curry's office with him. we were all together. mr. griffin. at the time that curry got off the first telephone call with decker, was there anything that stevenson was supposed to do? chief batchelor. well, he and i both, under chief curry's instructions, he said you'd better go downstairs and see what manpower you will need to cover that basement down there. one other thing, chief lumpkin had come in and he was the man i asked to find out for me how tall that ramp was down there, what the clearance was. mr. griffin. now, did lumpkin go down there before or after you called fleming? chief batchelor. i think he went down there. he called somebody down that knew how tall it was, but that was after i talked to fleming the first time. mr. griffin. does your office, chief, maintain any records of outgoing telephone calls? chief batchelor. no, sir. mr. griffin. at the time that you were talking to fleming, between the time that the chief talked with decker and you talked with fleming, would there have been any occasion for a dispatcher to make any particular communication to the people in the field as a result of the conversation with decker? chief batchelor. no, sir. as a matter of fact, nobody knew this. i mean, except the few people on the staff. mr. griffin. i realize that nobody would have known about the particular contents of the conversation, but what i am getting at is, is there any reason that somebody might have said at this point he knew you were going to have to make a move, you'd better dispatch the men in? you'd better send out a general call to bring in more men? chief batchelor. this would have been handled in a telephone conversation with the dispatcher, yet nobody would know the real reason for it. talbert did have some men called in. he did have some men called in. mr. griffin. how did talbert come to make this call in relation to the conversation? chief batchelor. i don't know, unless he was anticipating. well, i don't know how to say it. it had gotten on the radio and in the newspapers and everywhere else that this was going to be at o'clock, i presume, because there was people all up and down the street, across the street from the city hall on commerce waiting for this thing to happen. mr. griffin. were they waiting there when you came in at o'clock? chief batchelor. oh, there wasn't anybody there that early, but they were down there around o'clock. mr. griffin. can you think of anything that might have happened in the ordinary course of things after decker and curry talked, that would have been recorded in the police department? chief batchelor. about the movement of the prisoner? mr. griffin. no. i am particularly referring to the movement of the prisoner, but i am thinking of something that might pinpoint the time in which this conversation with decker occurred, that curry might have said at this point, "all right, stevenson, bring in so many men," and stevenson would have told the dispatcher to send out a call, and nobody would have known the purpose of the call, but it would fix a time? chief batchelor. stevenson went back after we determined we were going to have to secure the basement and move the prisoner. he went back to his bureau and had them send some men down there, some detectives. he didn't have to call them from the field. he had them back there. talbert sent out and got some men, and i don't know whose direction he did that on, but we went down there to see what manpower we would need. and when we got there, he had them there, and where he got this information, i don't know. mr. griffin. now after you talked with fleming the first time, what did you do? after you finished that telephone conversation? chief batchelor. we went downstairs and that is when we had instructed them--it was wiggins, i believe, in the jail office, to get that camera out of there. and we instructed them--curry went down with us, too, and there were two cars sitting across from the jail exit door. they were sitting in these places right here. mr. griffin. you want to take a pen and mark? chief batchelor. and we had these cars moved [marking on exhibit]. mr. griffin. what time of the morning would you estimate that was? chief batchelor. this must have been about : or : , somewhere along in there. mr. griffin. you want to mark what you think the approximate time was in between the two cars where you marked? chief batchelor. [indicates time.] mr. griffin. were there any other cars in the basement area at that time? chief batchelor. yes; there was several other cars. chief curry's car was over here, and mine was over here. mr. griffin. that is in the chief's normal parking place? chief batchelor. these all are our normal spaces. mr. griffin. you want to mark those in there? chief batchelor. [marks.] mine is over here, and i don't know whether chief fisher was in there or not. i don't remember his. mr. griffin. you want to put the time in between those two also? chief batchelor. [marks time.] mr. griffin. what time they were parked in there, the time that you are talking about right now that you saw them there. that is the same time that was on the other cars? chief batchelor. they were there all morning. they were parked there and they stayed there up until we moved them. mr. griffin. so they were there at : to : ? chief batchelor. [marks on chart.] mr. griffin. were there other cars in the basement area? chief batchelor. yes, there were others. i don't recall just exactly. it wasn't full. it was a sunday, and chief stevenson's car was parked over here somewhere, and chief lunday's, lumpkin's car was parked here. mr. griffin. was there general traffic of police cars in and out of the garage? chief batchelor. there would have been. however, on sunday morning, that time of day there is very little traffic in and out of there. it is one of the quietest times. there were two or three other cars parked in here. mr. griffin. when you went down to the basement at that time, were there news people in the basement? chief batchelor. yes, sir. when we went down in there the next time, there was some cameras setting up here that had just been rolled in. they weren't operative. mr. griffin. let's focus on this trip that you took downstairs with, was it stevenson? chief batchelor. yes. mr. griffin. at : or : . what is your best estimate of the number of news people that were down there? chief batchelor. i don't know. i can tell you a better estimate when we finally went down there. mr. griffin. was it crowded or sparsely crowded? chief batchelor. it wasn't crowded; no. there wasn't any big congregation. there may be two or three people from--some television people standing around there, trying to get set up, and they had some cables and stuff in there, and the best i remember, we told them they were going to have to move those cables out of there. and we instructed lieutenant wiggins to move these two vehicles out. mr. griffin. those were the two that are on the main street side of the entrance into the garage area? chief batchelor. yes, north side. and that we were going to have this for the news media to stand behind the rail. mr. griffin. right where the two cars were that you wanted to be moved? chief batchelor. yes; and we instructed the television people that they would have to put their cameras on this side of the driveway. mr. griffin. did you talk to any newspeople yourself? chief batchelor. i didn't myself. i was present there. i don't remember exactly who directed, whether it was chief curry or stevenson or myself, but i mean it was three of us standing there, and we all agreed that this needed to be done, and one of us told them. mr. griffin. now this first trip down to the basement, what did you do besides direct that the two cars on either side of the garage entrance be moved, and that the camera be moved back there? chief batchelor. we went over in here, and there were some detectives around in here. mr. griffin. now can you indicate in words what you are referring to on the map? chief batchelor. they were along in here. there was a man over here by this elevator. mr. griffin. this is---- chief batchelor. city hall elevator. mr. griffin. the first place that you referred to was the entrance way in the garage. were some people congregated there, and was there a man at the no. or no. elevator? chief batchelor. yes. mr. griffin. do you know who he was? chief batchelor. no; i didn't pay any attention to who he was. it was a uniformed man standing over there. i later learned this was a reserve that was over there, but i didn't pay any attention. mr. griffin. the uniformed man was a reserve officer? chief batchelor. yes. mr. griffin. who did you later learn that from? chief batchelor. in the course of the investigation later. mr. griffin. i see. some days after oswald was shot? chief batchelor. yes. mr. griffin. now after going over near the elevator where the uniformed reserve officer was, what did you do next? chief batchelor. well, we went back upstairs. and stevenson had gone at this time. we went down this first time to see the layout, and there wasn't too many here. we went back upstairs, and chief stevenson sent some detectives down, and brought his uniformed men in. i came down the last time, was just before the removal of the prisoner, and in the meantime i had contacted mr. fleming about the armored motor car. mr. griffin. you came down three times? chief batchelor. i went up once, and then stevenson and i came down and looked this thing over, and then down with curry, and then the last time. mr. griffin. on the first occasion when you were down there, you say you saw this uniformed reserve officer. did you later learn what his name was? chief batchelor. i don't remember it. it is in the report. mr. griffin. would you mark with an "x" on the map where that reserve officer was standing and the approximate time? chief batchelor. (marking). he was standing over here. mr. griffin. let the record indicate that he has marked it with a circle. this is again somewhere around : or : ? chief batchelor. somewhere along there. mr. griffin. did you learn in the course of your investigation his name? chief batchelor. i don't recall his name. mr. griffin. would that appear anywhere in the report, do you think? chief batchelor. not in that report. it would appear in the reports that were made by captain jones in the course of investigating who was where. you have a diagram similar to this with everybody marked on it, and he is on one of those. mr. griffin. had he been stationed there by somebody? chief batchelor. yes; now i could be mistaken about the exact time i saw him there. that is, whether it was this trip or the trip before. i could be mistaken about it, but i do remember seeing him here when we came down. mr. griffin. excuse me, do you want to mark the map then what the alternate time might be? you might write whatever time you think it was. chief batchelor. (marking). he was there before then, but i am talking about when i may have seen him there. mr. griffin. now, chief, after you left the basement area on this first trip, where did you go? chief batchelor. we went back upstairs to the office. mr. griffin. did chief stevenson go back up with you? chief batchelor. yes. mr. griffin. when you got back up on the third floor, were there news media personnel on the third floor? chief batchelor. there were some up there. mr. griffin. i take it, it was not what you consider a crowded condition. chief batchelor. no. mr. griffin. were there television cameras still there? chief batchelor. yes. mr. griffin. when you arrived at o'clock in the morning, were there tv cameras up there? chief batchelor. yes. mr. griffin. were the tv cameras manned at o'clock in the morning? chief batchelor. yes; the best i remember, they were. mr. griffin. do you recall what tv stations had cameras up there at that time? chief batchelor. it was krld and wfaa, if i remember right. and i could be mistaken about the wfaa. it could have been wbap. mr. griffin. how do you happen to remember krld? chief batchelor. they were the first ones in there and they had their truck parked outside. and also, i am pretty sure it was wfaa, because wfaa had a truck parked on the harwood street side. mr. griffin. were you able to tell at o'clock in the morning if they were shooting footage? chief batchelor. i couldn't tell. all the time that i remember, they had these little viewers in the back of the thing and you could see through them and see what was going on through them, look through the camera. whether they were shooting footage, there wasn't anything to shoot that morning. it was pretty quiet. mr. griffin. now, the second trip when you came back upstairs after your first trip downstairs, where did you go? chief batchelor. after the first trip, i came back up to again get in touch with mr. stevenson and tell him. mr. griffin. fleming? chief batchelor. fleming, i mean, and tell him what the height of that thing was. then he told me, well, i will just send both trucks down there and you can take the one you want. mr. griffin. this second phone call, was mr. fleming at home? chief batchelor. yes, sir. mr. griffin. do you know whether fleming had been contacted by anyone in your office or decker's office or anybody else prior to your first phone call to him? chief batchelor. i would think not. he couldn't, because this was his first knowledge of it. mr. griffin. could you tell us what else you said to him? what else this conversation involved? chief batchelor. i don't recall saying anything other than expressing our appreciation for his help. and he said he would send both of the trucks down. i told him how to bring the trucks. i told him to bring them east on harwood--i mean on commerce street, and that we would back it down the ramp so that we would be leaving the ramp in the right direction when they pulled out. mr. griffin. up to the time that you had this second conversation with fleming, had you discussed with anybody the route by which you would take oswald to the county jail? chief batchelor. nobody but chief curry, that i recall, and probably chief stevenson. as a matter of fact, this route that they were to take was worked out more between stevenson and curry and fritz than it was with me. my primary job here was to get the truck and get the cars placed, and it was decided that chief curry would lead the car down there, followed by a car of detectives, and then the armored car, and then followed by another car of detectives, and then followed by stevenson and i in a rear car. mr. griffin. this planned route of the movement was to go from commerce to central expressway, left to elm street, then down elm street? chief batchelor. to houston; yes, sir. mr. griffin. now as a result of that decision, were any cars or officers called in from the field? chief batchelor. yes. mr. griffin. who? chief batchelor. talbert called his officers in. he had called and scattered them up. and then there was some discussion about taking it down main street, and i am not too sure where i got this information, but anyway, he sent a sergeant and moved those officers over a block to main street. mr. griffin. why was the route changed? chief batchelor. well, i don't know. the route was changed without my knowing it, really. when they decided to take oswald in an automobile instead of the armored car. mr. griffin. who participated in that decision? chief batchelor. chief curry, chief stevenson, captain fritz, i believe--i was not in there when it was discussed. mr. griffin. after you talked to fleming the second time what did you do? chief batchelor. then he said he would send them over, and we went down there to get the cars lined up. this must have been, oh, probably : , : to : . i went downstairs and i saw the basement well covered. we had a man at the top of the ramp on main street. we had several men in the basement leading into the garage area just before you get to the jail office, and i went through there, and stevenson was with me. mr. griffin. let me interrupt you here, chief. i think i will pull out another map so that we can mark it. i am going to mark this map, for the purpose of identification, "dallas, tex., chief batchelor, march , , deposition exhibit ." now i want you to use this exhibit, chief, to indicate what you saw on this second trip downstairs, which you indicated would be what time? chief batchelor. i came out of the elevator into the basement and saw a number of officers across this area right here. there were several detectives. mr. griffin. would you mark that with "x's"? chief batchelor. [marking.] detective there. we walked through here. we noticed these cameras had been moved out. mr. griffin. you are talking about the passageway past the jail office? chief batchelor. past this jail office here. i noticed that inside the jail office there were three or four photographers inside the jail office. mr. griffin. at that point, you were at the jail office door nearest to the ramp driveway, and you looked in that door and you saw some news people? chief batchelor. yes; photographers. mr. griffin. did you recognize any of them? chief batchelor. i don't recall them. we went in there and moved them out. we went and instructed the jail supervisor that there was to be no one in that jail office except officers. mr. griffin. who was the supervisor? chief batchelor. lieutenant wiggins. and we moved them out and we instructed the reporters, and there were a number of them down there at that time, by no means all of them, that--later there were, but there was a good many--we told them they would have to stand back over here. mr. griffin. that is against the railing? chief batchelor. along the railing. and they had set up two tv cameras behind this railing. mr. griffin. would you mark with an "s," where the two cameras were set up? chief batchelor. [marking.] then there was another one right here. mr. griffin. was that third camera there when you came down at : ? chief batchelor. i don't think so. that was the one sitting over there. these were the two sitting out here. mr. griffin. now the two cameras that you placed there had been originally near the record room? chief batchelor. yes. mr. griffin. when did you see them near the record room? when you came in in the morning? chief batchelor. no. that trip down after we came down. mr. griffin. would you take exhibit , and would you mark those two tv cameras that you saw on the first trip? chief batchelor. [marks.] mr. griffin. i believe you said that that time was : ? chief batchelor. yes; now they had been moved here. mr. griffin. behind the railing? chief batchelor. behind the railing, and this was one sitting here. that was dead. mr. griffin. you are marking in the entrance to the garage off the main street ramp? chief batchelor. yes. mr. griffin. that camera that you are marking there in the garage? chief batchelor. not operating. mr. griffin. by that, do you mean that the---- chief batchelor. it wasn't hooked up. mr. griffin. but the other two cameras which you have marked behind the railing, were they taking shots when you walked down? chief batchelor. no; i don't know that they were at that time. they didn't have any lights on, no floodlights on, and they had been told to keep their floodlights off. they didn't turn them on. mr. griffin. prior to the time that you came down on the second trip at about : , did you discuss with anybody up on the third floor where you wanted these tv people placed and what you wanted done with the lights? chief batchelor. we told the men down here, and we told the reporters down here, just kind of announced to them. mr. griffin. as you walked down? chief batchelor. yes. some of them--one of the supervisors came in and said they couldn't get them all along here and wanted to know if it would be all right to put them along here? mr. griffin. you are indicating at the bottom of the main street ramp? chief batchelor. main street entrance ramp. mr. griffin. between the railing and jail office? chief batchelor. and the wall. mr. griffin. yes. they wanted to put their cameras there? chief batchelor. no; it wasn't cameras. they just wanted to stand there. mr. griffin. what did you tell them? chief batchelor. since we couldn't get them in there, he told them if they would stay back, they could stay there. and there were some officers that were stationed along there to hold them back. mr. griffin. but your original hope was that all of the news media people could be in the entrance to the garage? chief batchelor. and they were scattered along here, too. scattered along the entrance into the garage itself and along here, but some of them, there just wasn't room for them, and some got across here. mr. griffin. how long did you remain downstairs on this second trip? chief batchelor. i don't think this is the second trip. i think, well, i guess it is. but i came down here, and stevenson and i looked this thing over. mr. griffin. you are going to have to indicate in words. chief batchelor. we looked over the basement to see that the security was in order. i noticed an officer at the main street ramp. we walked up the commerce street ramp and noticed a crowd of people across commerce street, and was told by one of the supervisors that they were keeping them across there, and that they allowed no one on the side next to the police station of the city hall except officers. and the only people over here were either reservists or regular officers. they had officers across the street. chief lunday told me they had officers down at the courthouse across from the jail entrance. was keeping that crowd back there. mr. griffin. now as you looked along the sidewalk on the north side of commerce street, from the commerce street ramp to pearl--from the commerce street ramp to pearl expressway--in other words, in the direction of the municipal building, could you see how the police officers were spaced, and how many officers were along the north side of commerce street? chief batchelor. well, it is a good ways to pearl, and the crowd didn't extend anywhere near down to pearl street. it was mostly just across from the building up to harwood street rather than pearl. there weren't that many people there. it wasn't like a parade. i guess there were, oh, a couple of hundred people across there, perhaps. mr. griffin. do you know whether or not there was a police officer at the corner of pearl and commerce? chief batchelor. i don't know. i don't remember whether there was or not. i'm sure there must have been one stationed there. mr. griffin. when you walked out on the sidewalk and were talking about this : trip down to the basement, what did you do? chief batchelor. i turned around and walked back in there. they had parked chief curry's car out east of the commerce street ramp on the street, double parked, parallel to some parked cars that were already there. then i drove my car out of the basement and parked it west of the commerce street ramp exit, and i double parked it also right behind his, the intention being that when this convoy came out, that he would lead off and i would drop in behind chief curry with chief stevenson. mr. griffin. would you mark on the map where chief curry's car was and where your car was placed on commerce street? chief batchelor. this confuses me a little here. there is not any offset. mr. griffin. unfortunately, this black line that confuses you represents a basement wall. it doesn't represent the street. chief batchelor. [marks on map.] mr. griffin. what did you do after you moved your car out on commerce street? chief batchelor. shortly after that just within a few minutes these armored cars arrived. mr. griffin. where were you standing when the armored cars arrived? chief batchelor. i was in the basement, but somebody told me down there, shouted that these armored cars had arrived, so i came up again out of the ramp to look at the two cars to see which one we wanted. i looked in the inside of the larger armored car and decided that this one is the one we would have to use because it had room not only for the prisoner, but two guards to be placed in there with him. and this one--mr. hall, i believe is his name--i think it is mr. hall that drove the truck up there. and this truck was too large or too tall to drive clear to the foot of the basement ramp. it wouldn't clear this ceiling at that point, so i asked mr. hall to back it in, and he started backing it in, and he got the truck inside of the ramp with all of the body inside and the cab on the outside, on the sidewalk. he stopped and suggested that he not go to the bottom of the ramp with it because of its weight. he was afraid that in trying to pull out, he might kill the motor and stall it on the ramp, and suggested that since it blocked the entrance, if we could use it from that point, he would rather it go from that point. mr. griffin. at the point this conversation took place, had you or anyone else to your knowledge told hall what route would be taken? chief batchelor. no; we told him he would follow a lead car, and pointed out the car that he would follow. mr. griffin. at that point, did you indicate to him how soon it would be before oswald would be brought down? chief batchelor. no, sir; this truck was parked in the ramp, and i thought that this would be a safe place to park it because on one side of the truck next to the west wall of the ramp there was only about inches of space. and between the truck and the east wall, there was only to inches of space. i placed an officer between the west wall and the truck, which totally blocked it. and i placed two officers between the truck and the east wall, and that totally blocked that. then i believe it was lieutenant smart and i got in the truck and searched it. we found a soft drink bottle in the truck, which we took out. i found a loose bolt lying on the floor, which i took out. there was a device on the back side of the truck which was sort of a gauge and a lever which i didn't understand what it was and i asked mr. hall what that was, and he said it was an emergency brake in the event something happened to the driver, that whoever was in the back of the truck could pull that lever and stop the truck. we got these items out of the truck and took them away, left the back doors of the truck open to receive the prisoner, and then i went back down to the foot of the ramp and waited, and in a few minutes shortly after the arrival of the truck, chief stevenson came down, and this was, oh, nearly : . it was just a matter of minutes before--and told me of the change of plans, and that they were going to send the truck in convoy down through elm street, and that the car carrying---- mr. griffin. you mean main street? chief batchelor. no; elm street, and that the truck carrying oswald and a car of detectives would drop out of the convoy, out on main street and drive down main street by themselves. in other words, the truck was to be a decoy, and the lead car and all the other cars would follow it on down elm street, while the car carrying the prisoner would go down main street. mr. griffin. what security was there going to be? chief batchelor. we had moved the officers over from elm street to main street on the corner. the only security would have been a car carrying detectives, following the car carrying the prisoner and detectives. mr. griffin. how were the officers moved, by a radio dispatcher, or was somebody sent out? chief batchelor. a sergeant was sent out, a three-wheeler. talbert had it done. i don't recall who did that. mr. griffin. now, did you know at this point whether there was an officer stationed at the corner of main and commerce? main and pearl expressway? chief batchelor. no; i don't know whether there was or not. (short recess had.) (discussion off the record.) mr. griffin. why don't we state this for the record, that we have had a recess and an off-the-record discussion between mr. griffin and chief batchelor, and so that the record may be clear about where the policemen who were to guard the route which was originally planned for the transfer of oswald, on the streets of the city of dallas, i will let chief batchelor at this time explain where they were originally to be stationed, and where they were moved to. chief batchelor. they were originally stationed along elm street, and later were moved to main street where the prisoner would actually go. mr. griffin. i believe that before we took the recess that i was asking you if at the time that you were down in the basement and examining the armored car, you were aware that a man was or was not stationed at the corner of main and pearl expressway? chief batchelor. i do not know. i was not aware. i hadn't given that any thought at the time. actually, main and expressway would pose no traffic problem of a turning movement, at that point, because pearl expressway, which is a one-way street, and the convoy would have been next to the curb, and it would pose no problem at this point, trafficwise. mr. griffin. when chief stevenson came downstairs and told you that the route had been changed, where did he tell you that the caravan would turn off commerce street? chief batchelor. on central expressway. mr. griffin. when it turned left on central expressway, where would it next turn? chief batchelor. the convoy would go to elm street, but the prisoner and a car of detectives would turn off at main. mr. griffin. now, did you discuss with him the reasoning behind this decoy? chief batchelor. i merely asked him why the change, and he said they decided to change it up in the homicide bureau in a discussion with chief curry, because if anyone attacked, they would have the prisoner in a car separate from the convoy and the public would not know this, and they thought this would be a wise move. mr. griffin. now you all were aware that the tv cameras were going to be focusing on the car or the vehicle that oswald was placed in, didn't you? the people in the downtown streets wouldn't be able to see that, but there were also newsmen down there who were broadcasting and they would be able to tell people listening in on the radio what car? chief batchelor. you are arguing with me. i had nothing to do with moving the prisoner. mr. griffin. i didn't mean to argue with you, chief. chief batchelor. i didn't make the decision and i don't know whether it was wise or not. it is a moot question now. mr. griffin. well, now, what next happened after you talked with chief stevenson about this change in plan? chief batchelor. this happened when he told me about it, just moments before they actually brought him down, and he told me they were bringing a car up on the ramp, two cars up on the ramp, one to carry the prisoner and one to carry the detectives. mr. griffin. let me go back one bit here. you stated that you came down. this one time you are talking about was an episode where you went through the armored car, and this would have been your third trip downstairs? chief batchelor. and my last one. mr. griffin. and your last one. now the first trip that you came down the stairs was when you saw these reserve officers over by the elevators? chief batchelor. actually, that was the second trip down, i believe. mr. griffin. that would have been about what time? chief batchelor. oh, probably or : , somewhere along in there. mr. griffin. i see. so that the trip that we have been referring to in the past, the : trip, is really most clearly distinguished by the---- chief batchelor. i may be a little mixed up on my time, but the last trip, the trip we are talking about when we searched the armored car and put that in place, that was fairly close to the movement of the prisoner, and i would say somewhere around : to o'clock. mr. griffin. now that happened somewhere around : ? chief batchelor. about : . mr. griffin. but you never went back upstairs, from the time that you moved your automobile up onto commerce street and the time that you searched the armored car? chief batchelor. no; chief stevenson did, but i didn't. mr. griffin. how long would you say you were downstairs from the time that you walked down and moved your car out on the street and oswald arrived? chief batchelor. possibly minutes or . mr. griffin. now after you finished examining the armored car and you talked with chief stevenson, did you get a chance to look at the placement of the news personnel, the news media people in the basement? chief batchelor. shortly before he came down, yes. mr. griffin. now looking toward the main street ramp, how many rows deep, if there was more than one row at all, were the policemen who were blocking the main street ramp? chief batchelor. how many rows deep were the policemen? mr. griffin. i'm sorry, the news people, if you understand what i mean? chief batchelor. there was about, as i remember it, about two deep along there. some places there might have been a third man behind, but most about two deep. mr. griffin. would you come here and mark along the main street ramp about how deep these people were? chief batchelor. [marking.] there weren't many along there because there were cameras there. mr. griffin. how many people would you estimate were in that area there? chief batchelor. oh, there couldn't have been too many in that particular area there. it is only feet wide, maybe or in there, maybe . mr. griffin. now, just before oswald was brought down, where were the rest of the news people placed? chief batchelor. they were along here. mr. griffin. that is blocking the garage entrance? chief batchelor. yes. mr. griffin. about how many people would you say were in that area? chief batchelor. i don't know. altogether there must have been, gee, we had around policemen in that basement altogether, and there must have been or reporters and photographers and press people. they were fairly deep across here. but this is wider and they were two or three deep across there. mr. griffin. you want to mark in there where you have indicated? chief batchelor. [marks chart.] mr. griffin. would you say that they were deeper across the entrance to the garage than they were blocking the main street ramp, or were they about the same? chief batchelor. i wasn't paying too close attention to how deep they were. there was more than one line of them. mr. griffin. there was? chief batchelor. yes; they were two to three deep across here [marking]. mr. griffin. were there police officers in there also? chief batchelor. yes; there was police officers intermingling all along here. mr. griffin. had you given any instructions to the police officers up to this point as to how they should stand in relationship, where they should be facing? chief batchelor. no, sir. mr. griffin. now after talking with chief stevenson, what next happened? chief batchelor. almost immediately the car containing lieutenant pierce and i believe sergeant maxey pulled out of here, and these people had to step back, and they pulled out, and the detective cars were pulled here in on the ramp and backed into position. mr. griffin. chief, at this point, just before oswald was brought down, were there any automobiles in the portion of the garage which would be the north half of the garage, do you recall? chief batchelor. as i recall it, there were one or two vehicles parked back in here, police vehicles. mr. griffin. i see. were there any police vehicles, and if you don't have any recollection, state that. do you recall if there were any police vehicles along the railing of the main street ramp? chief batchelor. i don't recall. if there were, they were back from this entrance. there weren't any in the immediate entrance to the jail door. mr. griffin. do you recall if there were any people other than the people manning these tv cameras, behind the railing? chief batchelor. i don't recall that. i don't think there were, because these people here went up to just about where the cameras were. this curved a little bit around here. it wasn't just a straight line. it would curve a little bit like this, then, but they were standing away from the front of those cameras, because those cameras were on a tripod at a level on the floor, which was lower than this ramp level. mr. griffin. now, as pierce and maxey's car went up the ramp, did you watch it go up the ramp? chief batchelor. no, sir. mr. griffin. what did you do as it went up the ramp? chief batchelor. i don't recall. i was up here. i was more concerned with this truck here and getting this truck out of there when this thing started. mr. griffin. did you watch pierce and maxey's car go through the line of newsmen? chief batchelor. i saw it. i wasn't---- mr. griffin. were you paying any attention? chief batchelor. not particularly. i do remember seeing it. mr. griffin. after pierce and maxey's car broke through the line of newsmen, what do you remember next happening? chief batchelor. i remember backing these or pulling up these two detective cars that were to carry oswald, and one detective pulled up here a little ways, and he had to pull up a little further so this one could get up, and they then backed up. and this one had hardly gotten in place, barely had stopped, when somebody shouted, "here he comes." mr. griffin. all right, now, are you sure--how certain are you that these two detective cars pulled out after pierce and maxey? chief batchelor. i don't think pierce and maxey could have gotten out with those two detective cars where they were. mr. griffin. sounds pretty good to me. chief batchelor. while they were in place, they couldn't have pulled around here, because they were blocking this entrance here. mr. griffin. all right. now, who drove those two detective cars? chief batchelor. i don't recall. men out of the homicide bureau, but i don't know which ones. mr. griffin. are they listed in this report, do you recall? chief batchelor. i don't think they are listed in that report. i am pretty sure they are not. mr. griffin. detective brown? chief batchelor. where do you see that? mr. griffin. it is on page . "stevenson then proceeded across the driveway to the entrance to the garage where detective c. w. brown, driving one car, and detective dhority, driving the second car, was preparing to pull the cars behind the armored car." do you remember brown or dhority walking to the cars in the basement? chief batchelor. i wasn't directing my attention to them at the moment they did that. mr. griffin. do you know or have you heard whether they were sitting in those cars for a long period of time, or a few minutes, or whether they---- chief batchelor. i don't know, but i imagine so. i think they came down for that express purpose, after this plan was changed. mr. griffin. where were you standing as the rear car--that is, the car closest to the exit from the jail office---- chief batchelor. i was standing over in here. mr. griffin. would you place an "x" on the map where you were standing? chief batchelor. well, i don't remember exactly where i was standing at the time that they pulled those cars up, but i think i was standing over here, and then moved to this position as they were backing in, because i had been talking to chief stevenson just about that time, and we were talking right up in here. mr. griffin. now at the time you heard the shots fired, would you place on this map where these two automobiles were and where you were standing? chief batchelor. one car was right here, approximately, and the other car was ahead of it, and i am not drawing this in very good proportion, but this is the order they were in, and i was standing, and this i know in good order, because i was standing about midway of this thing, which was along about the back fender of this car, that i was standing right along here. but these cars were larger than that. mr. griffin. why don't you cross out that ford car there and redraw it up where it was? chief batchelor. i was standing here, and this one was back here more in this position. mr. griffin. would you put your name where you have made the circle? chief batchelor. (marks on chart.) mr. griffin. now do you remember what other officers or people were around you? chief batchelor. no; i don't remember who. there was a whole bunch of people. mr. griffin. what happened when you heard the shot fired? what did you do? chief batchelor. well, actually before the shot was fired, when i was standing along here, and when somebody shouted, "here he comes." i started to go to that truck, that armored truck and close the doors on it, the back doors so it could take off. and i turned to do that when i heard the shot. i hadn't taken over a step or two over to the door when he was shot. mr. griffin. then what did you do? chief batchelor. i turned around and looked back and came over there. there was a whole group of people had him down. it was a big---- mr. griffin. had ruby down? chief batchelor. had ruby down. they had pulled oswald into the jail office, and then pulled ruby in behind him. i went into the jail office to look at them, and they had ruby down on the floor on his back and was trying to handcuff him. mr. griffin. let's focus on the time when they had ruby down on the ground out there on the ramp, the ramp area. where did you stand at that point? chief batchelor. i stood off in the crowd. i didn't even see what was going on. there was such a crowd. mr. griffin. did you hear ruby say anything at that point? chief batchelor. no, sir. mr. griffin. did you hear any of the police officers say anything? chief batchelor. no, sir; not when i walked right up there to it. but i did hear someone shout, "jack, don't you so-and-so," but this was before they got him down. i mean, this was almost simultaneous with the shot. mr. griffin. did you follow ruby and oswald into the jail office then? chief batchelor. after a little bit, a minute or two after, i remained in the jail office and asked lieutenant wiggins if they had called an ambulance, and he said they had. i walked over and looked at oswald, and this intern had come in and was giving him some pressure on his lower rib section. mr. griffin. where did you see ruby at that time? chief batchelor. i saw him on the floor. i couldn't see him too well. there was several men on top. he was still struggling in the jail office, but they had already gotten the gun away from him and they were trying to get him handcuffed and get him down and laying still, but he was fighting them. mr. griffin. did you hear him say anything? chief batchelor. no; i don't recall anything he said. mr. griffin. did you hear the officers say anything to him? chief batchelor. no. mr. griffin. how long did you remain there? chief batchelor. just a few minutes. the ambulance came almost immediately. it was just--i walked out of there before the ambulance came and walked back. someone shouted right after this happened, and there was a lot of confusion, and someone shouted, "don't let anybody out." there were a bunch of reporters that started running like they were frightened. i suppose they were running to telephones, but they tried to run up the main street ramp, and i remember very clearly the officer at the top of the ramp pulling his gun and said, "get back down." they turned around and walked back down, but most of them escaped through the corridor. not out the ramp, but went out through the corridor. mr. griffin. this is the corridor that leads from the record room to commerce street? chief batchelor. well, yes. they escaped out the corridor off the hallway that leads in front of the jail office into the records bureau, and then to commerce street. mr. griffin. did they escape out commerce street? chief batchelor. i don't know where they went from there, whether they went upstairs to use the telephone, or out in the street. but there would have been nobody over there that heard the command not to let them out. this was kind of a spontaneous command. mr. griffin. what percentage of people would you say got out of the basement? news media people got out of the basement that way? chief batchelor. i don't know. they scattered pretty quickly. still a lot hung around after it was over. i would say half, at least, got out that way. mr. griffin. now, were you in the jail office when ruby was taken upstairs in the elevator? chief batchelor. was i in the jail office when he was taken upstairs? mr. griffin. yes. chief batchelor. no, sir. mr. griffin. where were you? chief batchelor. i went as soon as the ambulance came and got him, i ran up the ramp and told him to get that truck out of there, that it was blocking the entrance to the ramp, and then i left and went upstairs and told chief curry what happened. by the time i got up there, somebody called him and he knew what happened. mr. griffin. what did you do next? chief batchelor. lord, i don't remember what i did next. we sat there kind of dumbfounded for a while. mr. griffin. did there come a time during the rest of the day when you talked with ruby? chief batchelor. i never did talk with ruby. mr. griffin. do you recall the rumors, stories that began to come in about how ruby got down into the basement? chief batchelor. in the course of the next day or two we heard lots of rumors that he had a press card. this was the prevailing rumor, that he had a press card, but there wasn't a press card found on him. mr. griffin. i am trying to direct your attention to the events fairly close after the time of, the time oswald was shot. what did you do in connection with attempting to find out how ruby got down in that basement? chief batchelor. i don't know that i did anything specifically to try to find that out. we began to think in terms of an overall investigation into the matter. mr. griffin. did chief curry convene any sort of meeting or gather together any of the top officers to discuss this? chief batchelor. he discussed it with lumpkin and stevenson and i. i don't recall exactly when this happened, whether it happened just--i am sure it didn't happen just immediately after it happened, because there were obvious things that would take place first, and that would be the investigation, that homicide would carry on, an interrogation of ruby himself. we even got some rumors the next day that some of our officers had borrowed money from a bank and ruby was a cosigner on the note, and we ran a check at every bank in dallas, but the banks where this--the most probable one was the republic bank. we ran a check there by sending the name of everybody that was in that basement over to the bank, and having them check for us and see if they had any notes on these people. we also checked with, i believe, the mercantile, and we checked with the oak cliff bank and trust co., because ruby happened to live out in that area. we didn't know whether he had an account, but none of them found anything to date. mr. griffin. this meeting or a little conference that you referred to that you and curry and lumpkin and stevenson had, about how long after oswald was shot did this occur? chief batchelor. i don't remember whether that was that day or the next day, but it resulted in chief curry pulling some men out of the special service division with captain jones in charge, and we had about six men on the team besides the captain to investigate every aspect of this, which was in terms of locating all of the people that were assigned down there, locating as many of the press as they knew were down there, and getting statements from all of these people. then also we discovered this matter of this money order, and we followed that thing out. mr. griffin. did you personally talk with officer dean at any time on the sunday that oswald was shot? after ruby shot oswald, did you talk to dean? chief batchelor. dean said something to me, and i don't remember whether it was sunday or not. i believe it was sunday afternoon, sometime, or evening, to the effect that he had been up and talked to ruby with mr. sorrels, i believe was present there, and that ruby told him he came down that ramp. he told him that an officer, that a car came in, and an officer stopped and talked with the fellows in the car, and while he was talking to them, he walked down there. there is nothing to indicate that the officer did talk to the officers that went out other than maybe to speak to them. i mean, but it appears evident now that while the officer did walk away momentarily a few feet from the entrance is when he got in. mr. griffin. when dean made this statement to you, did you know that he had spoken to a newspaper reporter also? chief batchelor. no, sir. mr. griffin. do you know whether this conversation you had with dean was before or after he spoke to the newspaper people? chief batchelor. no, sir; i don't know. mr. griffin. did you have an occasion to talk with an officer by the name of newman that day? chief batchelor. no. mr. griffin. did you have occasion to talk to officer vaughn on that day? chief batchelor. no; over on top of the ramp? mr. griffin. yes. chief batchelor. no; as a matter of fact, i never have talked with vaughn. and i wasn't talking to dean in the nature of interrogating. he voluntarily told me this. mr. griffin. was anybody else present when dean told you that? chief batchelor. i don't recall that there was. i don't think there was. mr. griffin. do you recall where this conversation occurred? chief batchelor. no; it was there in the city hall, but i don't remember exactly where. it was probably up on the third floor. mr. griffin. now i am going to mark for identification, "dallas, tex., chief batchelor, march , , exhibit ." can you tell us briefly what that is, chief? chief batchelor. that is a monthly assignment board or bulletin, which has the names of all the members of the police department in it and their assignments for the month of november . mr. griffin. is that a true and accurate roster of the people who were employed in the department on the day that ruby shot oswald? chief batchelor. it would be, with the exception of any few that might have been reassigned, or any few that might have, in the course of the month, been transferred from one division to another, which occurs frequently. but for the most part it is correct. mr. griffin. or, also a few that had been hired? chief batchelor. or a few that had been hired during that month. they are not on there; yes, sir. mr. griffin. now you and i have spoken at some length during the last day, not counting the length of time we spent here. do you recall that in your office this morning we talked some about security measures in the protection of the president? chief batchelor. yes. mr. griffin. do you have any suggestions that you would make as to how, as a result of your experience, you think the president might be more effectively protected? chief batchelor. i don't know how you would correct this exactly. one of the problems that we experienced was the fact that such, of such a short time to do some of the planning that we had. we didn't know until just one afternoon, actually, in terms of love field security, actually where the president's plane would be placed. we didn't know until days before his arrival what the parade route would be. this posed some problem in terms of assignment of personnel and properly instructing personnel as to what their procedures should be. i think one thing that would be helpful would be for a standard general procedure of things that those responsible for protection of the president could put out to police departments such as certain standard types of coverage that would always apply. mr. griffin. can you give us any example from your own experience where this would have been useful on this unfortunate trip? chief batchelor. one thing you need in a situation like this is explicit written instructions to officers as to such things as watching the crowd rather than the president. this is a general accepted thing in most police departments. sometimes you have new personnel that comes in and they need to be told this specifically. we had an instance in which we were asked to guard all of the overpasses, railroad and vehicular, and we instructed the officers verbally that they were to let no unauthorized personnel on these overpasses. but there was no definition of what "authorized personnel" was. and in one case, there were people on an overpass which the president had never reached. mr. griffin. was this the triple railroad overpass at the base of elm street? chief batchelor. yes; they would have just gone under, or would have gone under momentarily had he not been shot. there were a number of railroad track workers on this overpass, and we had officers up there, but they considered them to be authorized personnel because they worked for the railroad, and they were all lined along there watching for the parade which never did go under them. mr. griffin. how many persons do you remember having been up there? chief batchelor. i was not there. i heard about it. i understand there were probably or people up there. but actually, there should be nobody over the immediate route the president goes under. but there are certainly, there seems to me, certain generally accepted procedures that, and certain general types of security that every police department ought to be aware of, that is standard operating procedure, plus whatever specific thing that the various circumstances might want done; some sort of suggested procedure on their part, with it published, that might be helpful to police organizations. mr. griffin. i want to go off the record here a moment. (discussion off the record.) mr. griffin. let's go on the record on this. we have been speaking off the record about other suggestions which chief batchelor has, and one of the things that he has pointed out is that there is not enough advance notice of what the presidential route is going to be to enable the police department to satisfactorily handle the administrative problems of selecting people to place them at particular intersections. do you want to add any more to that statement that i have made of what you have just told me? chief batchelor. no. i realize there is another aspect on this too, on the part of the secret service, that they want, that is, that they don't want too much advance notice to the public. this is the reason i am not criticizing. (further discussion off the record.) mr. griffin. let me go on the record and ask you a question here. do you think, chief, it would have been possible to station people in the middle of the downtown block with the instructions to watch various buildings in a periphery of their vision. chief batchelor. yes. this would be feasible. we did have men in the middle of the downtown, several of them in each block, they were primarily watching the crowd of people rather than the windows. when you are in an area of skyscrapers and you are standing right at the foot of these skyscrapers, you couldn't see windows too far up more than just a few floors, but we did have men in the middle of the block, but they weren't instructed to watch the windows as much as they were to watch the people. mr. griffin. did these men actually have any specific instructions as to how they were to go about watching the people or the windows? chief batchelor. we had experienced detectives down there in the immediate block watching in the crowd and then we had some reservists, too, and we had instructed our people in the course of training that when somebody comes by, that you are supposed to secure, that you are not supposed to watch that person, but supposed to watch the crowd. whether all of them remember this or not--when you don't get a president here but every number of years, why you don't know. that is the reason i think that in some places where they have these kind of people frequently, this is probably routine. mr. griffin. did you have men stationed in the neighborhood of elm and houston and the school book depository that were instructed to be watching the crowds? chief batchelor. no, sir; i don't think anyone was stationed below houston street. at that point, i don't know whether any crowd along that particular point was even anticipated or not. it was away from the business section and it was not any buildings on either side of the street there, actually. the school book depository faces on elm street, which is parallel to the elm street ramp that goes under the triple underpass. it is a couple of hundred feet across from the street to that building and there wasn't anybody placed down there. mr. griffin. you don't recall that there was a police car stationed either along elm street or houston near that intersection? chief batchelor. there was a police car that preceded the two of them, as a matter of fact, that preceded the presidential convoy. one was a quarter of a mile ahead and one was back of that one. mr. griffin. i am referring to a stationary car at the intersection. chief batchelor. no; there wasn't one, that i know of. mr. griffin. okay, i think that is it. testimony of assistant chief charles batchelor resumed the testimony of assistant chief charles batchelor was taken at : p.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by leon d. hubert, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. hubert. chief batchelor, i think that you made a deposition before burt griffin, a member of the advisory staff of the president's commission, now on march , , is that not a fact, sir? chief batchelor. that is correct. mr. hubert. i think also that you have now read the transcript of that deposition and that you have made certain corrections of typographical errors in pen and ink and by initialing those. you advise me now that you are willing to sign the deposition except that there are two statements, one on page , and one on page , that you wish to clarify, or change; is that correct? chief batchelor. that is correct. mr. hubert. now chief, are you willing to consider this deposition as a continuation of the deposition taken by mr. griffin on the d? chief batchelor. yes. mr. hubert. are you willing also to waive any notices that you would be entitled to before we begin this continuation of the deposition? chief batchelor. that's correct. mr. hubert. do you consider yourself to be under the same oath that you were at the time you made the deposition before mr. griffin? chief batchelor. i do. mr. hubert. all right, sir. now, i understand that you wish to comment, or change the following: on page , lines and read as follows: "chief batchelor. you are arguing with me. i had nothing to do with moving the prisoner." now, chief, what do you say about what i have just read? chief batchelor. that statement was inadvertently incorrect. i wished to say that i had nothing to do with changing the plans of moving the prisoner. mr. hubert. now turning to page , we find that lines through read as follows, to wit: "i don't know how you would correct this exactly. 'one of the problems that we experienced was the fact that such, of such a short time to do some of planning that we did'". do you wish to make a comment about that statement, sir? chief batchelor. i don't recall the exact language i used in the statement, but the sentence is grammatically incorrect. it should read: "one of the problems that we experienced was the fact that we had such a short time to do some of the planning that we had to do." mr. hubert. other than that, chief, have you found that the transcription of your deposition is correct? chief batchelor. yes. mr. hubert. all right, sir. then, when these notes concerning the corrections have been typed out i think you will be in a position to sign the original deposition, now, making a notation that you signed it approving all except such as has been corrected this morning? chief batchelor. that's correct. mr. hubert. and then you will also sign the second deposition, as it were, which is this morning's deposition? chief batchelor. yes, sir. mr. hubert. thank you, sir. testimony of chief jesse e. curry the testimony of chief jesse e. curry was taken at : a.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. leon d. hubert, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. hubert. this is the deposition of jesse e. curry of the dallas police department. mr. curry, my name is leon hubert. i'm a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the president's commission. under the provisions of executive order of the president, no. , dated november , , the joint resolution of congress no. , and the rules of procedure adopted by the president's commission and in conformance with the executive order and the joint resolution, i have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, mr. curry. i state to you now that the general nature of the commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of president kennedy and the subsequent violent death of lee harvey oswald. in particular, as to you, mr. curry, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry of the security of oswald, the transfer of oswald, and so forth. now, mr. curry, i think you have appeared here today by virtue of an informal request---- mr. curry. yes. mr. hubert. by the commission's general counsel to appear here. it is my duty to state to you that under the rules adopted by the commission, every witness who appears before the commission is entitled to a -day written notice before his deposition can be taken. the rules also provide, however, that the -day written notice can be waived if a witness wishes to waive it and go ahead and testify, so i ask you now if you are ready and willing to testify now and are willing to waive the -day notice? mr. curry. i am. mr. hubert. will you raise your hand and stand, sir, so that you may be sworn? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before the commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. curry. i do. mr. hubert. would you state your full name? mr. curry. jesse edward curry. mr. hubert. your age, please, sir? mr. curry. fifty years of age. mr. hubert. where do you reside? mr. curry. loving avenue. mr. hubert. dallas? mr. curry. dallas, tex. mr. hubert. what is your present occupation, chief? mr. curry. chief of police, dallas police department. mr. hubert. and how long have you been occupying that position? mr. curry. since january , . mr. hubert. how long have you been with the dallas police department altogether? mr. curry. since may , . mr. hubert. and how did you begin? mr. curry. i began, i believe, as a traffic police officer--well, i worked in a squad car a few days as a patrolman, and then worked as a traffic officer for several months. mr. hubert. how old were you when you began? mr. curry. twenty-three--i lacked a few months being twenty-three. mr. hubert. what education have you, chief? mr. curry. i graduated from the dallas high schools--dallas technical high school. i did not go to college. i studied a short time--optometry a short time after that, after graduating from high school. mr. hubert. what employment did you have between leaving high school and joining the police force? mr. curry. i worked a short time for vitalic battery co., as i recall, and at the time i entered the police field, i owned a small cleaning and pressing shop out in east dallas, which i owned and operated. mr. hubert. are you married? mr. curry. yes; i am. mr. hubert. you have a family? mr. curry. yes. mr. hubert. would you state who they are, how many children? mr. curry. i have three step-children--no, it's two step-children, one son of my own and one daughter of my own. mr. hubert. i take it that you're practically a lifetime resident of dallas? mr. curry. yes; i moved here when i was less than a year old. mr. hubert. it appears to me from what you have said that you began at the bottom of the ranks in the police department? mr. curry. that's right. mr. hubert. and would it be fair to say that you worked your way through, as it were? mr. curry. yes, sir. mr. hubert. up the line? mr. curry. yes, sir; i worked in practically every assignment the police department has, and through civil service examinations was able to gain promotions to a detective, sergeant, lieutenant of police, captain of police, inspector of police, and inspector of police is the highest civil service rank obtainable. mr. hubert. when did you attain that rank, mr. curry, roughly? mr. curry. i believe it was about , along about that as inspector--i don't recall exactly. mr. hubert. does the obtaining of that rank in the civil service system involve special studies? mr. curry. well, you must make some special studies in order to compete with the other men who are trying to reach promotion through examination. during these years i won a fellowship to northwestern university traffic institute and attended that school in - . i graduated from there. in i was sent to the fbi national academy in washington, d.c., and i graduated from that school. mr. hubert. i wish you would tell us other schools or training sessions you have attended. mr. curry. well, i've been to several schools conducted in the dallas area. i have been to weeks training school by the department of public safety in austin. i have been to several schools conducted by southern methodist university and the fbi here in the dallas area through the years. i have also taken correspondence training courses from the city managers' association, and i believe that's about the extent of my training. mr. hubert. were you in service during the war, sir? mr. curry. i was in what was called the cpa, civilian pilot training. it was a program that was open to people who were over combat age--in the air force. we did not receive any pay when we first went in. we volunteered our services and we were taught to fly. we attended ground training school; i was assigned to gainesville junior college and flew out of gainesville, out of the airfield there. i was then sent to tcu in fort worth where i continued my studies at tcu and flew out of meacham field, and then i was sent to amarillo air force base. we were not on the base, but we were assigned in that area and we waited there for, it seemed to me like or weeks and never received any training. we were then notified that we had an opportunity to either ask for release or discharge from the service because we understood--because of an oversupply of pilots, or else to remain in the program and be sent to various branches of the air force for various assignments. at that time, i, along with my buddy whose father advised us that he thought it was best for us to get out--we applied for a discharge, and i was discharged, so i was in this about months, at which time i was discharged and i returned to dallas and i reported back to my draft board, and that's the last contact that i had with my draft board. mr. hubert. and you went back to your duties? mr. curry. i went back to my duties as police officer. i was assigned as a detective at the time, and i worked for undercover a few months; i was then assigned as a sergeant in the traffic division; promoted to lieutenant of the traffic division; subsequently promoted to captain of the traffic division. i was then assigned to a police training school. i attended the fbi school then. upon my return from the fbi school, i completed an examination for promotion to inspector of police and was able to obtain the no. position and was promoted to inspector of police, and assigned to the police training school. mr. hubert. now, that examination and that promotion was civil service? mr. curry. that's right. mr. hubert. under the laws of texas? mr. curry. that's right. mr. hubert. and perhaps it would be better if you would just continue testifying--to tell us the various stages. mr. curry. i was assigned to the various training schools, had charge of the police training, and also personnel investigation. i was then appointed assistant chief of police in charge, which assignment is actually the second in command of the police department--that was in october of . mr. hubert. now, that is a non-civil-service position? mr. curry. that's an appointive job. mr. hubert. who appointed you to that job? mr. curry. well, the chief appointed me, i'm sure, on the approval of the city manager. mr. hubert. who was the chief at that time? mr. curry. carl f. hansson [spelling], h-a-n-s-s-o-n. mr. hubert. all right; go on. mr. curry. i served in that capacity until chief hansson resigned, and at that time i was appointed chief of police. i was appointed acting chief of police in december and when his name was removed from the rolls in january , i was appointed chief of police. mr. hubert. he resigned voluntarily? mr. curry. yes; he did. mr. hubert. was it because of old age? mr. curry. i don't know exactly why he resigned. he left us to go as executive secretary of the citizens traffic commission here in dallas, and he served in that capacity for some year or so and resigned from that capacity, and then he went as chief of the mesquite police department and remained there a year or two and at the present time is in an advisory capacity at richardson, tex. mr. hubert. well, you were second in command at the time you were appointed chief of police? mr. curry. that's true. mr. hubert. and you had been actually for some time? mr. curry. about years. mr. hubert. who was the city manager who appointed you? mr. curry. elgin crull, i believe he was at the time i was appointed. he was when i was appointed chief of police, because i recall--i don't recall exactly who was city manager at the time i was appointed assistant chief. i believe chuck ford, i believe, was. mr. hubert. of course, as you said, the assistant chief of police and the chief of police, are non-civil service? mr. curry. yes. mr. hubert. do you still maintain civil service status in the event of a reduction? mr. curry. in a reduction? mr. hubert. yes. mr. curry. in rank; you are supposed to return to the rank where you were when appointed. mr. hubert. now, you, of course, as chief of police, have under you a number of assistant and deputy chiefs of police and then captains of the various divisions and so forth. who made those appointments? mr. curry. they are under civil service except for the assistant chief and the deputy chiefs and i make those appointments. mr. hubert. you made those appointments? mr. curry. yes. now, i didn't make all the appointments, because some of them were in those positions when i was appointed chief. i appointed batchelor as assistant chief of police and i appointed fisher, who is in charge of radio patrol, as deputy chief of police, and i think the rest of them were in their positions when i was made chief and i left them there. mr. hubert. you had the authority to move them, i take it, but you chose to leave them there? mr. curry. that's right. mr. hubert. all right. now, everybody else was in his position by virtue of civil service? mr. curry. yes. mr. hubert. now, i would like to direct your attention to the time when the dallas police department first arrested oswald, and, i assume, became responsible for him and for his security. i believe that it was that he was arrested at the texas theatre? mr. curry. yes, sir. mr. hubert. and almost immediately moved to the dallas police department offices? mr. curry. so i understand; yes. mr. hubert. can you tell us what you know about the matter from that point on, and it may be just as well if you will tell it in a narrative fashion. i will ask you some questions as we go along, or perhaps wait until the end to fill in. we will see how it works out. briefly, what we want to know is what you know about the whole thing. mr. curry. well, on november , i was in the lead car of the presidential caravan. with me were secret service winston lawson and forrest sorrels, and the sheriff of dallas county, bill decker, and we were nearing the triple underpass in the western part of dallas, and which is near stemmons expressway--it was necessary for us to move to elm street in order to get on the stemmons expressway to get the president's caravan down to the trade mart where they were going to have a luncheon. i heard a sharp report. we were near the railroad yards at this time, and i didn't know--i didn't know exactly where this report came from, whether it was above us or where, but this was followed by two more reports, and at that time i looked in my rear view mirror and i saw some commotion in the president's caravan and realized that probably something was wrong, and it seemed to be speeding up, and about this time a motorcycle officer, i believe it was officer chaney rode up beside us and i asked if something happened back there and he said, "yes," and i said, "has somebody been shot?" and he said, "i think so." so, i then ordered him to take us to parkland hospital which was the nearest hospital, so we took the president's caravan then to parkland hospital and they were--the president, the vice president and the governor--were taken into the hospital and i remained at the hospital for--oh--some hour or so. at about : that day--this first incident occurred about : or so, and about : i was notified that one of our officers had been shot, and a few minutes later was told that he was dead on arrival at the hospital. at that time we didn't know who shot him. i was just told it was in oak cliff. i was still at the hospital at this time and i was told by some of the secret service people, i don't recall who, to get my car ready and another car ready to take the president--we were informed that president kennedy had expired--and we were asked to have two automobiles standing by to take president johnson to love field. mr. hubert. let me stop you and ask you this: when you had the news of the death of tippit, or the shooting of tippit, did you associate that in any way with the president's assassination? mr. curry. no; i didn't at the time. mr. hubert. all right, sir; go on. mr. curry. in a little while president johnson came out, and some of his aides, and got into my car and some of his other people came and got into another vehicle driven by inspector putnam of the dallas police department, and we were instructed to go to love field, to get there by the nearest route with the least amount of noise, but to go there as quickly as we could. so i drove to love field and the president got out of the car with his group and went aboard the presidential plane. mr. hubert. do you have any idea about what time you left the hospital to go to love field? mr. curry. no. mr. hubert. well, perhaps you can arrive at it this way; you know the time you arrived there? mr. curry. it seemed we were there about minutes at the hospital-- minutes or so, and we probably got there a little after : , so that would have been around a little after : , i believe. mr. hubert. it was a little after : that you started to move to love field? mr. curry. yes. mr. hubert. now, did you know jack ruby prior to that time? mr. curry. no, sir; i didn't. mr. hubert. you had never seen him? mr. curry. if i had ever seen him, i didn't know it. i might have seen him but i didn't recognize him. mr. hubert. of course, now, you know who jack ruby is; you have seen him? mr. curry. i have seen him in the courtroom. mr. hubert. can you tell us whether or not among any of the people that you saw at the hospital anywhere, whether jack ruby was at the hospital? mr. curry. if he was, i didn't know it. mr. hubert. that's what i'm asking--you didn't see the man that you now know to be jack ruby? mr. curry. no, sir; i didn't. mr. hubert. do you know a reporter from the washington, d.c., newspaper who is called seth kantor? mr. curry. i believe he used to be in dallas. mr. hubert. i believe he was, and moved on to washington. mr. curry. yes. mr. hubert. did you see him out there? mr. curry. i don't recall who all i saw out there--i saw a number of people out there. if i saw him, i don't recall it. i very easily could have seen him out there. mr. hubert. and it follows from what you said before, of course, that you did not see kantor with ruby? mr. curry. no, sir. mr. hubert. so, let's go back then to the point we left off, and that is to say--the arrival at love field. mr. curry. yes, sir; we arrived at love field with the president and his party and they got out of the car and got on the plane. i was informed by someone a little later that judge sarah hughes was coming out to swear in the president, to give him the oath of office, and we stood by and when she arrived i escorted her onto the plane and into the presence of the president and was there while she gave to him the oath of office. immediately after he was given the oath of office, as i recall it, the president said, "let's get out of here." and i left the plane with judge sarah hughes and returned to my car and in the meantime while we were at love field, mrs. kennedy and some others came and they loaded the casket onto the plane and she went into the plane. after i got off the plane, i talked to mrs. cabell and to mayor cabell and i waited until the planes left love field, and then i went to the city hall. now, as best i recall, it was probably around o'clock when i got to the city hall, and i started to my office on the third floor, and when i got off of the elevator there i could see that there was just pandemonium on the third floor. there was dozens and dozens of newsmen just crammed into the north end of the corridor. there were television cables running from down the halls, from the administrative office, and i went to my office and talked with some of my staff--i don't recall who all was in there at the time--about what was going on, and i was told by someone, i believe chief stevenson that they had a man named oswald whom they believed to be the murderer of officer tippit, and they had been questioning him in captain fritz' office. mr. hubert. did they advise you at that time, or did they know to your knowledge that he was also a suspect in regard to the assassination of president kennedy? mr. curry. someone mentioned that he was also a strong suspect in the assassination of the president. mr. hubert. that was at that same time? mr. curry. yes, sir. mr. hubert. when you got back there? mr. curry. after i returned from love field. mr. hubert. now, you say captain fritz was carrying on the interrogation? mr. curry. yes; that's his responsibility, to investigate murders, robberies, and rapes, and extortions and things of that kind. mr. hubert. it's fair to say, then, that the interrogation of oswald with respect to either the death of tippit or of president kennedy was in accordance with the normal procedures of the department? mr. curry. that's correct. mr. hubert. how long had captain fritz been in that position, sir? mr. curry. a number of years--i don't recall exactly when he was appointed to his position with the homicide division--probably years anyway. i had received a call from the fbi or someone in the fbi, i don't recall whether it was shanklin or who, and they were requesting that a representative of their bureau be allowed to be present when oswald was interviewed. mr. hubert. did you agree to that? mr. curry. i called fritz in his office and told him we had this request, and fritz said, "okay; we'll let them in." at that time i understood there was a representative from secret service already in the room and the representative from the fbi went in--one or two fbi representatives. it was some time before i ever went to the homicide office myself. mr. hubert. did you receive any message around that time or a little later relayed to you as it were, through fbi agents, that mr. j. edgar hoover, the head of the fbi, wanted you to know of his concern about oswald's security? mr. curry. specifically, i don't remember anyone coming to me and telling me that. mr. hubert. now, let's see--i think the last statement you made was that it was sometime before you actually went to fritz' office yourself. is there anything that happened of significance or that you want to put in the record with reference to what happened between the time you got there around a little after and the time you did get in to see oswald? mr. curry. no, sir; i wasn't particularly interested in seeing him or interfering with the investigation in any way. i stayed up in the administrative offices most of the time. i had a number of calls from various people, i don't recall just who all i talked to. i conferred with some of my staff during that time and i was kept informed of the progress of the investigation. mr. hubert. how were you kept informed? mr. curry. usually through chief stevenson. mr. hubert. in other words, you would move from captain fritz' office---- mr. curry. either by telephone or go down to the office and talk to him. mr. hubert. all right, go ahead. mr. curry. well, nothing of significance that i can recall occurred. later in the evening someone told me that they had enough evidence that he had been identified as the slayer of our police officer. captain fritz thought he had better go ahead and file on him and i think it was about : on the day they did file on him, and i think he had been down--had been to the showup a time or two--there were some witnesses who had identified him, so i was told, as being the man who shot tippit. mr. hubert. did you see oswald then, or when was the first time you saw him? mr. curry. i don't recall exactly the first time i saw him, but i believe it was in the evening--in the early evening. when i did see him i remember that he impressed me as being a sullen, arrogant individual, and he didn't seem particularly perturbed with the fact that he was being interrogated or that he was causing such a commotion--he was pretty cool. mr. hubert. you didn't question him yourself, did you? mr. curry. no, sir; i did not. mr. hubert. so, he was filed upon about : with respect to tippit? mr. curry. somewhere around in there--i don't know exactly when it was. mr. hubert. all right, go ahead. mr. curry. then, after he was filed on for this offense, i believe it was captain fritz who told me that they were working now on the possibility that he was the same suspect or the assassin of the president, and they began to, when i say "they" i mean captain fritz, principally, told me of some of the evidence that was piling up against him. in fact, he told me that he worked in this building and that that morning he had carried a package into the building. mr. hubert. this information was being relayed to you? mr. curry. relayed to me by fritz--just summing up what they found out about him. he told me that, as i recall, he told me that oswald had been in the building on this day and that one of the negro porters had seen him go to the sixth floor, i believe, at lunch time, and that after the shooting, some of our officers went into the building and they saw oswald at a lunch counter or in the recreation room and started to approach him or question him and they were told by mr. truly, who is the building manager, that this was one of their employees, and i think the officer passed him on up and went on upstairs to try to determine where these shots came from. in the meantime, i believe inspector sawyer was several blocks away from there, from that location, and when he heard what was happening, he immediately went to the location to take over all security and searching there. chief lumpkin and some of his party went on to love field with me and they went back to the texas school book depository. so, several minutes elapsed from the time of the shooting until anyone could have gotten--any officers could have gotten actually to the building. as soon as it was feasible or possible, they did seal off this building and also that they had checked all of the employees of the building and found out that there was one missing, and i think this is when they suspected him of being involved in the fatal shooting of the president, and from the description, i believe they began to tie the two suspects together--the suspect of the shooting of the officer, and all this was told to me by people of the homicide bureau. mr. hubert. well, when we last talked about oswald, i think it was when he was being charged with respect to tippit, and then i gather that the information you are giving us now is the background for charging him as the assassin of president kennedy? mr. curry. yes, sir. mr. hubert. and you were aware of that too--you were still in the building? mr. curry. yes. mr. hubert. do you recall a meeting--it has sometimes been called a showup or a lineup--i don't know that that is accurate, but it took place in the assembly room. mr. curry. and some of the members of the press were there, yes, sir. mr. hubert. well, can you tell us what that was about? about what time? mr. curry. i don't recall exactly the time it was--it was in the evening, sometime after they had interrogated, i think, oswald. i think he had been in the showup once or twice previous to this for witnesses to observe him, and there were so many newsmen in the halls that they were not all of them able to see or to get any pictures or any thing else in the north corridor of the third floor, and some of them asked me to--sometime during the evening--when they could see oswald, how does he look, can we see him? at this time henry wade, the district attorney, was up there and alexander was up there. mr. hubert. he is the assistant district attorney? mr. curry. yes; and something was said about--how about letting us see him or could we see him? mr. hubert. that was said by wade or alexander or by the newsmen? mr. curry. by the newsmen. mr. hubert. in the presence of wade and alexander? mr. curry. yes; as i recall it, i asked henry wade, "do you see anything wrong with it," and as i recall, he told me, "not that i know of, i don't see anything wrong with it." and, so, we told them if they would go to the assembly room that we would let them see oswald. mr. hubert. is the assembly room located on another floor? mr. curry. yes, in the basement; we were on the third floor. mr. hubert. and the assembly room is in effect--it is a room, as i recall it, that might seat or people? mr. curry. yes. mr. hubert. and it has a little stage with the usual showup apparatus? mr. curry. yes. mr. hubert. that is to say, there is gauze in front of the prisoners, so that the audience can see them, but the prisoners can't look out. and there are markings on it as to height and their numbers? mr. curry. yes. mr. hubert. that's the room we are talking about? mr. curry. yes, that's the room he was taken to. he was not put on the stage, he was just put in front of the stage for the showup. mr. hubert. in other words, he was not put behind the gauze? mr. curry. not this time, i think he was on previous occasions. mr. hubert. yes; when there was a real lineup for identification? mr. curry. yes. mr. hubert. but this was not an identification lineup? mr. curry. no; it was the news media clamoring to see him, and they wanted to know when they could look at him or when they could observe him, and on the third floor when he was brought to and from the interrogation room, which was captain fritz' office, they had to go about or feet, and they almost mobbed him every time they would bring him through. mr. hubert. you are saying they had to go about or feet to get to the elevator? mr. curry. yes. mr. hubert. that is the inside elevator, not the public elevator? mr. curry. that's right. mr. hubert. it's the inside elevator---- mr. curry. the prisoners' elevator. mr. hubert. that leads all of the police department down into the basement into the jail? mr. curry. yes. mr. hubert. all right, sir; go ahead. mr. curry. so, we warned them not to try to interfere with him or anything else and we would let them see him. we did take him down and let them briefly see him--this was just a very short time. mr. hubert. were you present then? mr. curry. yes; i was. mr. hubert. who else was present, among the police officers you recall? mr. curry. i don't recall--i think fritz was--i don't know that he was in the room, and there was a couple of detectives who brought the suspect in. henry wade and alexander were in the vicinity--they were not right there with me, so when we brought him in, the news media started then to trying to talk to him and he was only there for a few seconds and we removed him. mr. hubert. did you see, during the time you were in the assembly room that you have just been speaking about, the man you now know as jack ruby in that room? mr. curry. no, sir; i didn't. i understood he was there, but i didn't see him, and would not have known him had i seen him. mr. hubert. well, that's correct, but now that you do know him? mr. curry. i didn't recognize him. mr. hubert. you didn't recognize him? mr. curry. no. mr. hubert. your present memory doesn't associate the man you now know as jack ruby with being in that room? mr. curry. that's right. mr. hubert. now, can you tell us why oswald was moved for the purpose of charging him in the case of tippit, and subsequently in the case of the president? mr. curry. i don't know in the case of tippit. i wasn't there. i mean, i wasn't present when he was charged, but he was charged with the murder of the president--he was charged in the lobby of the identification bureau, which is on the fourth floor of the police department, and he was brought out of the jail into the identification bureau and the charge was read to him by judge david johnston. mr. hubert. what i am trying to get at is what security measures were observed with reference to him during the time that he was moved through these crowds of people? mr. curry. officers surrounded him. we had officers in front and in the back and by the side of him as he was moving--usually two detectives, two or three uniformed officers, when he moved through the crowds. mr. hubert. i understand you said that there was a huge crowd on the third floor? mr. curry. yes. mr. hubert. and i would take it that there was a rather large crowd in the assembly room? mr. curry. yes; there were several--a good many there. mr. hubert. is it fair to say that other than on the third floor, when he was being moved and when he was in the assembly room, he was not exposed in any way? mr. curry. no; he was not. mr. hubert. that is to say, there were no persons around him but police then? mr. curry. that's right. mr. hubert. now, when he was moved through the hall, however many times he was at the third floor--of course, you had this mob of newsmen and there were a group of newsmen in the assembly room? mr. curry. yes. mr. hubert. what i am getting at--what security measures were taken, if you know, with respect to who was in that crowd of newsmen of the people in the assembly room? mr. curry. i don't know, other than on the third floor. i know that there was some police reservists and a police sergeant who was screening people who came up on the third floor. mr. hubert. now, how would they screen them? mr. curry. as they got off of the elevator, i would observe that they would check them, apparently asking for identification. mr. hubert. the elevator would be the only way to get up there? mr. curry. the stairway, they could get up the stairway. the officers were so located that had someone come up the stairway they would have seen them too. mr. hubert. in other words, the officers checking the elevator could also check the staircase? mr. curry. that's right. mr. hubert. do you know whether any instructions had been given to those officers? mr. curry. i don't know of my knowledge, but i observed them checking the people who came in. mr. hubert. whose responsibility would it have been to post those officers for the purpose of checking there? mr. curry. usually the captain on duty in that building--that would have been captain talbert, i believe, but it could have been someone else. had they observed the need for it, they could have issued orders to get someone else. mr. hubert. obviously, someone must have posted two men there? mr. curry. yes. mr. hubert. would you say you have in the department any standard operative procedures to cover a situation like that? mr. curry. not exactly this type incident. mr. hubert. so, in any case, you observed that that was a security check going on? mr. curry. yes. mr. hubert. is the same thing approximately true about the group that was in the assembly room when oswald was brought down? mr. curry. well, now, i don't know that they were all checked as they went into the assembly room. mr. hubert. did you give any instructions about the security of oswald there? mr. curry. no; i just told them to keep the newsmen--and i told the newsmen they would have to stay back inside the confines of the room and not approach the prisoner. mr. hubert. let me put it this way--generally speaking, did you give any specific instructions regarding the security of oswald, during that period we are talking about? mr. curry. no, not this period--no. mr. hubert. do you know what system of checking for identification was being used by the officers on the third floor guarding the elevator and staircase? mr. curry. i don't know of my own knowledge. i could see them checking the people to see whether they were up to do police business or whether they were newsmen trying to cover the incident. we were carrying on the normal business we would conduct, and this would bring a great many people to the third floor, relatives of prisoners, complainants, various people that would come to the other bureaus. mr. hubert. normally, there would be no police checking those two elevators? mr. curry. no, sir. mr. hubert. so that, i suppose it is fair to state, isn't it, that the main function of that check was to keep curiosity seekers out of the way? mr. curry. that's right--that's right. mr. hubert. and to check also to see if anybody had any legitimate business there? mr. curry. that's right. mr. hubert. well, i think we can just continue on then. mr. curry. well, after oswald was arraigned, i went back to my office--i went home a little while after that and that was, i believe, saturday night. mr. hubert. no; that would be friday night. mr. curry. yes; friday night, yes; and saturday morning i came down to the office and i don't remember any particular outstanding incident that occurred during the day. it was a rather routine investigation--there continued the investigation from the homicide division section on the murder of the president. mr. hubert. was the crowd of newspapermen still there? mr. curry. yes, sir; they stayed there. mr. hubert. were the security measures you have described still in force? mr. curry. yes, sir; they stayed. mr. hubert. it was neither more nor less? mr. curry. it was about the same. i had several conferences during the day with various staff members and i was kept informed of the progress of the investigation. late that evening, the different members of the press, news media, began to ask me when we were going to transfer oswald because he had been filed on, and i told them i didn't know, that this was something that would be left up to captain fritz because he was conducting the investigation and the interrogation, and usually he would be the one to determine when he was ready to transfer the prisoner. mr. hubert. when a prisoner is formally charged, as oswald had been, what is the normal procedure to transfer the prisoner to the state prison? mr. curry. there are two ways it is done. sometimes the bureau transfers the person to the sheriff's office, and sometimes the sheriff's office sends up and gets them. mr. hubert. and either type is usual? mr. curry. either one is acceptable. mr. hubert. had decker made any request to you to deliver what, in effect, was his prisoner? mr. curry. not at this time. mr. hubert. so, on saturday night, that would be the d, you were asked, i think, by the newsmen? mr. curry. when we were going to transfer him and i told them i didn't know. mr. hubert. all right; go on from there. mr. curry. and some of them asked if "they are going to transfer him tonight?" and i said, "i don't think so." then, i talked to fritz about when he thought he would transfer the prisoner, and he didn't think it was a good idea to transfer him at night because of the fact you couldn't see, and if anybody tried to cause them any trouble, they needed to see who they were and where it was coming from and so forth, and he suggested that we wait until daylight, so this was normal procedure, i mean, for fritz to determine when he is going to transfer his prisoners, so i told him, "okay." i asked him, i said, "what time do you think you will be ready tomorrow?" and he didn't know exactly and i said, "do you think about o'clock," and he said, "i believe so," and then is when i went out and told the newspaper people, the news media that we were not going to transfer him that night and some of them asked, "when should we be back, when are you going to transfer him?" and i said, "i don't know," because i didn't know when we were going to transfer him. some of them said, "when should we back?" i made the remark then, "i believe if you are back here by o'clock you will be back in time to observe anything you care to observe." mr. hubert. can you tell us whether on saturday night any plans had been made for the transfer? mr. curry. not on saturday night, i don't believe. mr. hubert. then, you went home? mr. curry. yes. mr. hubert. then, let's pick up with the th. mr. curry. on sunday morning, i came down to the office, and, as i recall, it was probably : or : when i got to the office, and as i parked my car in the basement of the city hall and started up to our office, i noticed that a large camera had been set up out in the hallway between the jail office and the end of the corridor immediately in front of the jail office, and it was in the way of traffic, and lieutenant wiggins came out and i told him--i told lieutenant wiggins, i said, "you are going to have to move this camera out of here," and then i told wiggins, i said, "now, if the news media come down here and want in, put them over behind the rail." there is a rail separating the ramp that comes down in the basement from the parking area. there were two cars in there, i believe a patrol wagon and a squad car and i told him to move those vehicles out and if the news media came down and wanted to observe from the basement, that they were to be placed back over in this area. mr. hubert. is it fair to state, then, that in your own mind, you had determined that the way to move him was through the basement area? mr. curry. yes. i believe about this--chief stevenson and chief batchelor approached me--i think they had been there earlier, and i told them i thought the best thing to do was to set up our security down there and bring oswald down there and transfer him on to the county jail. i went on up to the office and chief batchelor and chief stevenson, i think, remained in the basement a while and captain talbert was down there. mr. hubert. did you delegate to any specific person the security of oswald? mr. curry. no, sir; i could see that he was being taken care of by the captain on duty, captain talbert, and lieutenant wiggins was assisting in it, so i didn't see any need to particularly call some officer over there and say, "look, you are in charge of this security in this basement." it was being taken care of, i could see. mr. hubert. well, for the record, will you tell us what you saw that satisfied you that it was being taken care of? mr. curry. officers were being stationed at the strategic points in the basement to screen people coming in, and they were moving out the vehicles as i asked them to, so i went on upstairs and i told chief batchelor and chief stevenson that we should clean out everything in the basement and screen everything that came back in. mr. hubert. when you ordered everything to be "screened" did you give any specific instructions? mr. curry. no; i didn't mr. hubert. or does that term have any significance in police work? mr. curry. well, it means to satisfy yourself that they were people who had a legitimate reason to be there when you screen them. mr. hubert. in other words, within the organization of the police department, the word "screening" is understood so that you were satisfied that there would not be people there who were not supposed to be there? mr. curry. any unauthorized people. mr. hubert. just one more point on that--under the system, who would be considered as unauthorized persons? mr. curry. i think i specifically stated that only newspaper reporters or police officers would be allowed in the basement. mr. hubert. only the news media? mr. curry. yes. mr. hubert. television people--would be included, too? mr. curry. yes. mr. hubert. was there any discussion of the route to be taken? mr. curry. not at that time. mr. hubert. all right; let's go ahead. mr. curry. then, i went on upstairs and a little while later i went to fritz' office and they were interrogating him--they--there were several people in there, some i recognized as fbi agents, some were secret service agents, some were dallas detectives, and captain fritz was talking to oswald at the time, i believe, and i stood around a few moments and when there was a lull in the interrogation, i asked captain fritz if he was about ready to transfer oswald and he said, "well, no; they were still talking to him," so i left the room. mr. hubert. that was about what time? mr. curry. as i recall, it was probably : , but i didn't care when they transferred him at all. it didn't make any difference to me. the arrangements had been made to transfer him and then when it was brought to---- mr. hubert. what arrangements had been made? mr. curry. that we would transfer him to the sheriff, but at that time we did not have any armored cars down there. we were just at that time, i believe it was--understood that we would just put him in the car and drive him down there. someone asked me if i had heard of the threats that had been made against him, and i had. they had called me at home about it, and i called sheriff decker, i think, from fritz' office, and when fritz said they were ready to transfer the man, and this is something after o'clock--probably a little after , and decker said, "okay, bring him on," and at that time i said, "i thought you were coming after him." decker said, "either way, i'll come after him or you can bring him to me," and i thought since we had so much involved here, we were the ones that were investigating the case and we had the officers set up downstairs to handle it, so i told decker--i said, "okay, we'll bring him to you." mr. hubert. in other words, at first your security precaution in the basement was to take care of the situation of either your having to move him from the jail or decker coming after him? mr. curry. or decker coming after him; that's right. then, i saw chief batchelor, and i believe, chief stevenson, and we discussed the threats that we had had. mr. hubert. now, that was, of course, after you had heard about the threats and after you had talked to decker? mr. curry. yes. mr. hubert. and i think you mentioned you talked to decker a little after o'clock? mr. curry. well, it was probably before that. mr. hubert. i wanted to bring that to your attention because it seems to me it must have been earlier than that. mr. curry. yes; it was. because we had to get the armored car in there after that. anyway, after it was determined we would move him, chief batchelor, i believe, and chief stevenson and myself discussed this security and we decided it would be best to get an armored car down there in the event some one, some group tried to take our prisoner away from us, it would be better to have him in an armored car. so. chief batchelor called the man, i don't recall his name now, that runs the armored motor service here in dallas, and requested that we be furnished with an armored car, and i was told later that they had two sizes, an overland truck and a city truck and they would send them both over there when they could get the drivers and we could use whichever one we wanted. well, as i understand it, during this time the questioning of oswald continued up in captain fritz' office, and i believe it was about a quarter to or around when we were told the armored cars were there and they backed them into the basement and they wouldn't go all the way down because of the height of the vehicle, and one of them was parked on the ramp and officers were placed on each side of it. in the meantime, i understand that the basement had been completely cleaned out of any unauthorized persons. mr. hubert. can you tell me why it was that the commerce street exit was chosen to put the armored car in and for the cars carrying oswald to leave in, rather than the main street exit? mr. curry. because commerce street is one way east and all the traffic comes in on main street. mr. hubert. main street is two-way traffic? mr. curry. it is two-way traffic and the exit is one way east, so the vehicles were placed there. mr. hubert. as a matter of geographical fact, except for the fact that you would have been going the wrong way, up the main street ramp and that you had two-way traffic on main street, the actual closest route would have been to go up the main street ramp, turn left up main street and go down? mr. curry. yes; it would. it would have been about three or four blocks closer, because when we came out of commerce you had to go east to the second block and make a turn one block and make a turn back west. mr. hubert. chief, have you any comment to make as to why the longer route instead of the shorter route was taken? mr. curry. well, just because ordinarily we don't violate traffic rules and regulations in the transfer of prisoners and we thought this was the normal route that should be taken and that's the reason it was set up that way. mr. hubert. the original decision, as i remember it, was to go through the commerce street exit and then turn left up to north central? mr. curry. yes. mr. hubert. and then turn left again and go to elm and then go on down to the county jail? mr. curry. when i went back up into the homicide office and told fritz about our plans of transferring the prisoner, he was not particularly pleased with the idea of putting the prisoner in the armored car. mr. hubert. did he say why? mr. curry. he said if someone tried to take our prisoner, he felt like we ought to be able to maneuver and he felt that this would be too awkward in in this heavy armored car and he preferred that the prisoner be transferred in a regular police car with detectives. mr. hubert. was a policeman to drive the armored car? mr. curry. no; not the armored car. mr. hubert. is that a factor, too--i suppose--it wouldn't be a member of the police force under your control driving that car? mr. curry. no; but he felt like--fritz said if anyone tried to take our prisoner we should be in a position to be able to cut out of the caravan or to take off or do whatever was necessary to protect our prisoner. so, i didn't argue with him about it--there was some merit to his plan, so i told him, "well, okay, but we would still use the armored car as a decoy and let it go right on down just as we had planned and if anyone planned to try to take our prisoner away from us, they would be attacking an empty armored car," and that his vehicle with the prisoner in it would have cut out of the caravan and proceeded immediately to the county jail and the prisoner would be taken into the county jail, and the way we figured it, he would be there before the other caravan got there. well, he asked me if everything was ready and i said, "yes, as far as i know, everything is ready to go," and this was a little after o'clock and i said, "well, i'll go on down to the basement," and was en route to the basement when i was called to the telephone and mayor cabell was on the telephone wanting to know something about the case, how we were progressing, what was going on, and while i was talking to him they made this transfer and oswald was shot in the basement, and he was rushed to parkland hospital and i was notified that he had been shot in the basement. mr. hubert. did you know about his being shot before he moved to the hospital in the ambulance? mr. curry. yes, they called me from the jail office and said he had been shot and an ambulance had been ordered. mr. hubert. now, after the shooting, what action did you take--that is, the shooting of oswald? mr. curry. well, i don't recall any particular action i took. i was told the man who shot him was in custody and was up in the jail. i think i notified the mayor that the man had been shot while i was still on the telephone with him and then i waited up in my office for word from parkland hospital, and about : , or i believe about : , we were informed that he had expired, and during this time i had been informed that the man who shot him was a nightclub operator named jack ruby, and that he was in custody up in the jail. after i was informed that oswald had died, i made an announcement to news media that he had expired and that we had the man who shot him in custody and as i recall, that's about the extent of my activity on that day. mr. hubert. do you remember whether on sunday, november , it came to your attention that ruby had stated that he entered the jail through the main street ramp? mr. curry. i heard that, but i don't know who told it to me. i just heard a rumor that he had come in through the main street ramp. i understood that he told some more people that up in the jail. after this happened, i immediately set up an investigative team to try to find out what happened. mr. hubert. now, when you say "immediately," you mean on the th? mr. curry. yes. mr. hubert. and who was that? mr. curry. inspector sawyer, capt. o. a. jones. mr. hubert. what were your instructions to them? mr. curry. to interrogate everyone that had anything to do with this and find out what they knew about it, what had happened and how and why and how it occurred. mr. hubert. is it fair to state that your instructions were then to find out exactly the truth? mr. curry. yes; absolutely. mr. hubert. now, you did receive a report from them ultimately? mr. curry. yes, i did. mr. hubert. and i take it, of course, that you studied it? mr. curry. yes, sir. mr. hubert. as i remember the report, it made certain specific findings as to how ruby entered and so forth? mr. curry. yes, according to the report he did come down the main street ramp. mr. hubert. from your study of the report and all the statements that you got, are you satisfied with the conclusions reached in the report? mr. curry. i believe this is the way he came in. i don't believe the officer at the top of the ramp where he came in, i don't believe that he knew that he went by, but i do state this, that i think the proper security was set up, and that had each officer carried out his assignment, i believe the transfer would have been made safely, and while i, as head of the department, have to accept responsibility for the security, i can say this, that the proper security was set up. it was a failure of one man to carry out his assignment properly that permitted this man, apparently, to come into the basement of the city hall. mr. hubert. and that man you mean is roy vaughn? mr. curry. vaughn--officer vaughn, the officer assigned to the main street ramp. mr. hubert. was there any kind of influence of any sort whatsoever or suggestions exercised upon you or made to you concerning the transfer of oswald by either mayor cabell or city manager crull? mr. curry. no, sir; they left it up to me. mr. hubert. chief, as you know, there has been some suggestion that a desire to satisfy the press dictated the time of the movement and the route. i think you ought to have an opportunity at this time to recall your own observations as to what influence, if any, considerations of pleasing the press entered into any of these plans? mr. curry. well, i would only say this, that we were trying in the police department to let the press have an opportunity to observe the proceedings as they were. this is an event that had not been--the like of the event had not been seen or heard, i think, in this century. i didn't have any particular ones to come to me and insist that this be done in this manner. i saw no particular harm in allowing the media to observe the prisoner, and with no laws against it, and no policies that had ever been set up stating that the news media would not be allowed to see a prisoner. there was no way for us to take the prisoner from the homicide office to the jail and back without the news media seeing him. i was besieged actually by the press to permit them to see oswald. they made such remarks as, "the public has a right to see, to know," i didn't want them to think that we were mistreating oswald; that we were carrying on this investigation in a normal manner, and that this case was handled as probably any other case would have been handled, although this had more national appeal, you might say, and had some curiosity to it, than some of the other cases we have handled. but certainly the fact that the news media was permitted to see him and to take pictures of him was not anything unusual. this has always been done, but not to this extent because we didn't have this much press present. mr. hubert. as i understand what you are saying, it is that had it not been for the fact that the victim was oswald, if it was oswald, and it was the president involved, this would have been quite normal procedure, that is to say, the press would have been allowed to see him, you would have told them when he was going to be moved? mr. curry. that's right. mr. hubert. and allowed them to take pictures? mr. curry. that's right. mr. hubert. was any suggestion made to you by anybody that it would be best to disregard those considerations with respect to the press and use another route in making the transfer at another time? mr. curry. no, sir; not that i recall. fritz and i, i think, discussed this briefly, the possibility of getting that prisoner out of the city hall during the night hours and by another route and slipping him to the jail, but actually fritz was not too much in favor of this and i more or less left this up to fritz as to when and how this transfer would be made, because he has in the past transferred many of his prisoners to the county jail and i felt that since it was his responsibility, the prisoner was, to let him decide when and how he wanted to transfer this prisoner. mr. hubert. well, you didn't, in any case, give him instructions not to transfer the prisoner at a time when he could not be observed by the press? mr. curry. no, sir; that's right. mr. hubert. is it fair to state that had he done so, it would have been satisfactory to you? mr. curry. i would not have complained about it. mr. hubert. do you know whether fritz' decision not to move him prior to the time that had been announced to the press was motivated by considerations of the press? mr. curry. i don't know whether it was or not. i think this--that he didn't know how long he would be interrogating. i don't believe fritz wanted to move him at night. i think he wanted to move him in the daytime so that he could see anyone that might be trying to cause him any trouble. mr. hubert. your thought is that, therefore, fritz' decision not to move him at night was dictated by considerations of security? mr. curry. i believe so; yes. mr. hubert. chief, i believe that i ought to offer you the opportunity to state for the record here as an overall proposition what you consider to be the cause of what was obviously a security breakdown? mr. curry. i think the cause of the breakdown was the fact that officer vaughn left his post to assist this lieutenant pierce, and i believe sergeant dean, and i don't know who else was in the car, as they left the basement of the city hall going the wrong way on the ramp, and officer vaughn stepped across the sidewalk which he had been instructed, so i am told, to guard that ramp--to let only police officers or bona fide news media enter there. he momentarily stepped away from his assignment and while he was away from this assignment, our investigation shows that jack ruby went behind him and entered the ramp and went to the bottom of the ramp and stood behind some detectives and news media. mr. hubert. concerning the security at the top of the main street ramp where vaughn was, what observations have you to make about that means of entry being guarded by one man only instead of, say, more? mr. curry. well, actually, this seemed to be the least risk in our security plan. all of the crowd and vehicles and everything was over on commerce street and there was very little over on main street, actually very little activity at all. it was only about a -foot ramp there that he had to guard. mr. hubert. and he was standing right in the middle of it? mr. curry. had he stayed on his assignment, i don't see how ruby could have gotten in. mr. hubert. of course, when the pierce car came up, he obviously had to move away, but your thought is he moved too far away from his assignment? mr. curry. he moved too far away from his assignment. he apparently was assisting this vehicle to get across the sidewalk, i think it was or feet wide, and into the street. actually, he should have just stepped to one side and let the vehicle come by. now, this officer was put on a polygraph to determine whether or not he knew that ruby went by him and according to the test, the results of the test, he did not realize that ruby went by him. mr. hubert. chief, in addition to your testimony, i have shown you two documents which i think you have read, and i am marking for identification as follows, to-wit: the first one is a report of an interview of you by fbi agent vincent drain on november , the document consisting of two pages, and i am marking on the first page "dallas, tex., april , , exhibit , deposition of chief j. e. curry," and i am signing my name on that, and on the second page i am placing my initials. with respect to the second document, it seems to be a copy of an interview of you made by fbi agent leo robertson on december , , and i am marking on the margin of the first page, as follows: "dallas, tex., april , , exhibit , deposition of chief j. e. curry," and i am signing my name at the bottom of that page, and since the document has a second page, i am placing my initials at the bottom of the second page. now, i am going to ask you if you would mind signing your name where my name appears and your initials where my initials are, so that the record will show we both are talking about the same document? mr. curry. okay. (signed document as requested by counsel hubert.) mr. hubert. then i am going to ask you whether you have any comments to make about those two documents? would you initial the second page, too? mr. curry. yes; i will. (witness curry initialed instruments as requested by counsel hubert.) mr. hubert. now, chief, have you had an opportunity to read both of those documents? mr. curry. yes; i looked them over. mr. hubert. do they represent the truth so far as you know of the interviews that they purport to cover? now, if you have any comments to make or deletions or modifications or changes, or if you find that those documents are incorrect, i would like for you to say so, because what we will have to do is to get into the record what is correct and not what is not correct. mr. curry. [examining instruments as referred to.] yes, sir. mr. hubert. are they correct, sir? do you have any comments or deletions? mr. curry. no; i don't have any comments. as far as i know--as far as i can recall, this is about what happened. mr. hubert. now, have you ever been interviewed by any member of the commission's staff prior to this time? mr. curry. no, sir; i had a little conversation with you over in my office. mr. hubert. that was about weeks ago when i was present in dallas? mr. curry. yes. mr. hubert. was there anything that occurred during that conversation that has not been covered here? mr. curry. not to my knowledge. mr. hubert. now, finally, is there anything at all you would like to make a matter of record concerning this whole thing? you are at liberty to say anything you want to say. mr. curry. no; the only thing i would like to say is that i deeply regret the incidents that occurred and i feel like we did everything that could be expected of us as a police department to set up the security of the president and to cooperate with all agencies that had a responsibility in this matter, that we certainly would have liked for oswald to have remained alive and faced trial. according to the information that was given to me by the homicide bureau, we had developed a very good case on him and would have been able to, i'm sure, would have been able to convict him in a court of law. jack ruby--i do not know, i did not know. it has been intimated that a great many of the dallas police officers did know him, but from what i've been able to find out, there were some police officers who knew him, but most of them knew him because of the fact they had conducted police business with him at his place of business. there were a few, perhaps, that knew him and had gone to his place of business for social activities, but it was certainly not--he is not known by the majority of the police department. mr. hubert. chief, perhaps you would like to comment on two things--one, is that, as you know, there has been some talk or rumor, of course, that the police department cooperated, or some members of it, with ruby for an opportunity for ruby to shoot oswald. have you looked into that, and if you have, would you give us your observations about it? mr. curry. my instructions to the investigating officers were to go into every facet of this incident and to uncover any information that might indicate that any police officer cooperated in any way with letting ruby get in a position to where he could have an opportunity to shoot oswald. mr. hubert. did you find any evidence that would indicate anything? mr. curry. no evidence whatsoever were we able to find. mr. hubert. you were looking for such? mr. curry. yes; we certainly were. mr. hubert. chief, what was your intention had you found such evidence? mr. curry. proper action would have been taken. mr. hubert. and by that you mean what? mr. curry. the officer, if criminal negligence had been established, he would have been filed on by us. mr. hubert. now, there has been also the rumor that while the police did not actively cooperate, that they saw jack ruby there, didn't pay much attention to him, were really appalled when he did what he did, and then after that, engaged in a cover-up activity to preserve the reputation of the police department. can you tell us whether your investigative efforts were directed toward uncovering any evidence which might throw light on that matter? mr. curry. this investigation which was conducted was a completely impartial investigation. we in the police department for a number of years have felt like if there is anything wrong in our department, we want to know it, and if actions of the officers are improper, an examination of our records through the years will show that we have taken whatever action was indicated, whether this be filing on a man for law violations or for improper conduct or whatever it might be. the seriousness of the offense is certainly not covered up and through the years we have a reputation for a high standard of conduct and the integrity of the department has not been questioned. mr. hubert. you are satisfied that from all you know that there has been no effort to cover up? mr. curry. no, sir; not to my knowledge, and had there been and it had come to my knowledge, i certainly would have done something about it. mr. hubert. you are satisfied that the evidence shows that really ruby came through one man? mr. curry. that's right. mr. hubert. and that was vaughn? mr. curry. that's right. mr. hubert. have you anything else to say, chief? mr. curry. no, sir; i believe not. mr. hubert. well, sir, on behalf of the commission and myself personally, i want to thank you very much for coming here and being frank and contributing, i think, a great deal of the permanent record in this matter. mr. curry. thank you, sir, if there is anything that i might know that i haven't brought out, i will be happy to. the only thing i can say is that our security broke down at one place. i can't deny that, and i don't think it intentional on the part of the police department to have this thing occur. mr. hubert. i think that's covered. i wanted to ask you those questions and i think they are going to be asked and we are going to have an answer to them now and you are the man to do it. thank you very much, chief. mr. curry. all right. thank you. testimony of sheriff j. e. (bill) decker the testimony of sheriff j. e. (bill) decker was taken at : a.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. leon d. hubert, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. hubert. this is the deposition of j. e. (bill) decker. mr. decker, my name is leon hubert. i am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the president's commission under the provisions of executive order , dated november , , the joint resolution of congress , and the rules of procedure adopted by the commission in conformity with the executive order and the joint resolution. i have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, sheriff decker. i state to you now that the general nature of the inquiry of the commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and to report upon facts relating to the assassination of president kennedy and the subsequent violent death of lee harvey oswald. in particular as to you, sheriff decker, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you may know about the death of oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry, including the security of oswald, and the method and so forth by which he was killed. i think, sheriff decker, that you have appeared here today by virtue of a letter written to you by mr. j. lee rankin? mr. decker. yes; i think that's correct. mr. hubert. who is the general counsel of the staff of the president's commission? mr. decker. i know there was a letter--anyway, i am here due to that reason. mr. hubert. i had the impression you had a letter, but let me say this, that in any event, you are appearing here by virtue of a request made to appear here? mr. decker. i was notified by the u.s. secret service to appear here and i presume that was a summons. mr. hubert. then, that would be because we did not wish to go through the formalities here? mr. decker. that's right. mr. hubert. in that case, however, i must state to you that under the rules and regulations of the commission, every witness is entitled to a -day written notice before appearing. mr. decker. i understand. mr. hubert. but the commission does provide that the witness may waive that days' notice and i now ask you if you are willing to waive it and testify now? mr. decker. yes, sir. mr. hubert. will you stand up, please, and i will administer the oath? do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. decker. yes, sir. mr. hubert. will you state your name? mr. decker. bill decker. mr. hubert. your age? mr. decker. sir, . mr. hubert. and your residence? mr. decker. palo pinto. mr. hubert. what is your occupation? mr. decker. i am sheriff of dallas county. mr. hubert. how long have you been sheriff? mr. decker. since january , . mr. hubert. well, you have been reelected a number of times? mr. decker. yes, sir. mr. hubert. how many times? mr. decker. i am serving my years--i had two of those--one of those terms for a -year term, but we caught years prior to that--that makes from , leaves , and is terms and i am coming for my fifth now. mr. hubert. what was your occupation prior to the time that you became sheriff? mr. decker. i was chief deputy sheriff for dallas county years prior to that. prior to that i was chief deputy constable since , prior to that i was in the courthouse as a court clerk and prior to that i was elevator operator in the courthouse. now, that's it--that's my life. mr. hubert. you started really at the bottom you might say, and went up? mr. decker. yes, sir. mr. hubert. you are married, of course? mr. decker. yes. mr. hubert. you have a family? mr. decker. i have one adopted son. mr. hubert. now, i--as i understand it, it is your responsibility to operate the state or county jail for those prisoners who are either serving terms that may be served there, or who are awaiting a trial in dallas county and do not make bond, is that correct, sir? mr. decker. that is correct. i am keeper of the county security building, of the county jail, which maintains the prisoners. mr. hubert. that is located where? mr. decker. main street, the corner of main and houston, and it extends to the corner of elm and houston in the rear. mr. hubert. now, when prisoners are put in your custody or you take them into your custody who are awaiting trial, where are they placed, in cell blocks or something of that sort? mr. decker. oh, yes; we have a jail there with a capacity of prisoners. mr. hubert. do you have what might be called maximum security there? mr. decker. yes; i do--there are many maximums--i have maximum-security cells that's the latest that can be built. the others are built in the old jail which was built in . of course, my steel isn't so good in that old jail. mr. hubert. by maximum security, you mean, of course, maximum security from the standpoint that the prisoner can't get out? mr. decker. it is tool proof steel, one, and two, it is the modern locks. the man who maintains it--the opening and closing of the doors to it is in a cell block where the prisoners could not get to him unless he did as a couple of my boys did the other day, i'm sorry to say. you don't need to put that in there. they are no longer with me. they opened the door when they had no business to and they lost their jobs and i lost five prisoners. mr. hubert. does maximum security as it operates with you include considerations of security to the prisoner himself? mr. decker. yes, sir. mr. hubert. do you consider it to be your function, not merely to secure the prisoner so that he may be brought to justice or acquitted, but also so that his personal security will be maintained and he will not be injured, either by other prisoners or by outsiders? mr. decker. well, i even go further than that. mr. hubert. well, will you tell us about that? mr. decker. a prisoner that is delivered to me--when the crime is committed, he is then delivered to me and when he is delivered to me, from then on i am his keeper. i must furnish his food, his clothing, get his medication and all the necessities of life required. i must protect him from a violent prisoner and i also must protect him from a citizen who would desire to do harm to him. mr. hubert. do you consider that your physical set up, and by that i mean, bricks and cement and steel as well as personnel is adequate to accomplish the purposes that you have described as maximum security? mr. decker. we feel that our men are qualified from the training that is given to them, one; that the jail has passed federal jail inspection on many occasions; and we feel that our jail is so constructed that the prisoner is protected. mr. hubert. now, of course, you are aware that a man by the name of lee harvey oswald was in the custody of the dallas police? mr. decker. yes; i had some officers present when he was arrested. mr. hubert. from the sheriff's office--sheriff's officers were present? mr. decker. yes; sheriff's officers were present in oak cliff at the time. they responded to the assassination of the killing of tippit, the same as others. you see, i was at the scene of the assassination of the president. mr. hubert. yes. mr. decker. when my officers were dispatched there, i also told some other agencies to send their men over there. mr. hubert. now, what is the custom with respect to prisoners who are captured or taken into custody by the city police when there is no warrant of arrest? mr. decker. most prisoners taken in custody by the city police are arrested within the corporate limits of the city of dallas and they in turn are moved to the city jail, which is located at the corner of main and harwood, or better still, in the block of main street, and there confined until their period of investigation is completed. mr. hubert. how long is that? mr. decker. well, now, that's a problem i couldn't--there would be no way to answer that--how long does it take to make some investigation? mr. hubert. what i had in mind was whether there was any rule, regulation, or law? mr. decker. no; someone said once you couldn't hold them over or hours, but where it is, i don't know. the city ordinance under which most municipalities work is--they have a right to arrest and hold for investigation until they could determine if a crime has been committed. that leaves it pretty blank. mr. hubert. all right. now, let's assume that a man has been formally charged and that there has been a capias or warrant---- mr. decker. it's a warrant in this case. mr. hubert. of arrest, which authorizes you to arrest the particular prisoner? mr. decker. i or one of the constables. mr. hubert. what is your custom--are there any rules or regulations or laws? mr. decker. no; there's no rules or regulations--only this--when a warrant is issued--when a complaint is filed with my district attorney or the magistrate, which is the justice of the peace, the warrant is issued and delivered to the agency. if it is a felony and in the justice court, it goes to the constable, which this offense we are speaking about was a felony and should have gone to david johnston, justice of the peace, precinct , and the warrants were delivered to the city police. mr. hubert. now, you are talking about the charge with respect to tippit, are you, or the death of the president, or both? mr. decker. well, i rather think it was both. mr. hubert. the warrants then were not put into your possession at all? mr. decker. no, sir; not at that time. mr. hubert. and that is in accordance with the custom, too? mr. decker. yes. mr. hubert. what would normally happen in circumstances such as we are dealing with here, where warrants were issued about o'clock in one case, as to tippit, and a little later about o'clock on the d of november, as to the death of the president, what would be the normal situation as to your getting control and custody and your becoming the keeper of these prisoners? mr. decker. the whole thing would be that if we, if those warrants had come through the regular channels to us, we would have contacted--i imagine we would have contacted captain fritz because it was a homicide and that is in his division, and asked him about the prisoner and discussed with him if he was ready for transfer--if he was going to transfer or did he want us to transfer. that would have been the normal procedure with us. mr. hubert. in other words, it is normal to have them transfer the prisoner to you, rather than for you to go and get them, or both? mr. decker. no; it is normal but it is not too much--they transfer maybe one-tenth of maybe percent, but as hot a piece of merchandise as this prisoner was, chances are captain fritz and his men would have attempted to bring him from the city hall to the courthouse. mr. hubert. in other words, except in rare instances, meaning a situation of this sort, you send your men to the city jail to get them? mr. decker. day in and day out. we have a paddy wagon for that purpose and a driver for the purpose and uniforms and insignias and all on it. mr. hubert. now, when did you make any efforts to take custody of oswald? mr. decker. i can't tell you that as to when--the homicide occurred and the boy was taken in custody in the afternoon and that was on a friday--i'm not going to tell you for certain because there was so much and on friday afternoon we were taking statements in my office--you know--this thing happened, occurred just across the street from my office and we moved all the witnesses when we were on the ground there at the scene, all the witnesses we could locate--i was working there and i had inspector sawyer, who is there with me, and also heitman of the fbi and my assistant chief deputy, and every witness, just as we picked up a witness that had any information at all, we sent him directly across the street to my office and reduced his statement to writing. then, i talked to fritz after he arrived. we had by then located the gun and the ammunition, my officers had located it in the building, and was awaiting the arrival of the scene searchers and also the arrival of my scene searchers and fritz arrived and then i talked to fritz and then we went across the street and he phoned and that's when i learned oswald had been formerly employed there at that building. and, fritz went to the city--now, here's something i'm uncertain about--whether i talked to him that afternoon or the next day about this removal, i cannot tell you because there was so much happening and so much press in our hair, i couldn't say, but i did discuss with him and advise with that i wished to be notified when he started to move this boy, so that i would have my security in shape to receive him when he arrived there. mr. hubert. you think that was no later than saturday, the d? mr. decker. oh, no; it wasn't. i don't think it was any later than that--no. mr. hubert. in other words, as i understood you, you couldn't tell whether it was on friday or saturday, but it could not have been sunday? mr. decker. no; it wasn't sunday. i remember there were different conversations on sunday, different conversations on saturday and different conversations on saturday night. mr. hubert. well, now, perhaps if you can, you can tell us about these various conversations, if you remember them--who they were with and about what time? mr. decker. well, on saturday, the homicide, i believe, if i'm correct--now, the date of the homicide of oswald was what? mr. hubert. it was sunday the th. mr. decker. the th--sunday. friday, after we had completed our investigation and gotten our files together to some extent, we then closed shop, shall we say, and went back into our routine work, and on saturday arrival at our office we then again, i'm reasonably sure that was the day, we talked about moving oswald but i just don't remember. that's one of those things you just don't remember the date. mr. hubert. but you talked to fritz? mr. decker. that's when i talked to fritz. mr. hubert. what did fritz tell you, do you know? mr. decker. he said he would notify me when he was ready to move. mr. hubert. he wasn't ready at that time? mr. decker. he wasn't ready at that time, witnesses were being brought in, he was still interviewing witnesses. now, then, later that afternoon the rumor was out that they were going to bring him down--of course, we had rumors, rumors, rumors all the day, because we had worldwide press and they were in the city hall, you couldn't get in the city hall for them and they were running back and forth down to our pressroom, and this word was here that they were coming, so late that afternoon, on saturday, jim kerr was the first man that brought me the date of the o'clock transfer sunday morning. jim kerr is associated with channel , and there were several of the pressmen in my office and members of my staff and we were discussing it and later in the evening, later about o'clock it was getting on to be, and he notified us they were going to move in and i think i then confirmed that with someone in the city and they said yes--the next morning at o'clock and then i went to my home. mr. hubert. did they say "next morning at ," or not before ? mr. decker. they said "around o'clock." mr. hubert. you got that, though, from newsmen, you think? mr. decker. jim kerr is the man that gave me the information. mr. hubert. you didn't talk to fritz or curry about that? mr. decker. no; but i checked it up at the city with somebody there, and i don't know who it was now. mr. hubert. you, yourself, don't know who it was? mr. decker. i checked it on the telephone. mr. hubert. but you don't remember who you talked to? mr. decker. no; i don't remember who i talked to. mr. hubert. and it was confirmed that he would not be moved that night? mr. decker. it was confirmed that he wouldn't be moved that night and that's all there was to it. mr. hubert. but you say your normal operations went on and i assume you went to your home? mr. decker. yes. mr. hubert. what time did you get to your office on sunday, the th of november? mr. decker. it was before --around o'clock--wait a minute, let me see if i can refresh my memory just a little bit here [examining records in his possession]. i am considering that time of when i was advised by the city that transfer might be made the first time, if you care to incorporate this in there--the first time was : p.m. saturday. at that time it was not at o'clock. i have this note--however, i arrived at my office early sunday morning to recheck all security measures that had been provided for the transfer of oswald, so what would be early for me, sir, i am a man that doesn't get down to the office until o'clock, and so if i arrived at o'clock, that would be early arrival for me, so you can place it near that period. mr. hubert. mr. decker, i would like for you to carry on from there in narrative form as to just all of the events that happened as they came to your knowledge. mr. decker. you mean on that morning, on sunday morning? mr. hubert. yes, sir. mr. decker. for additional security, i placed all members of the press--you see, i forgot to give you this a moment ago--on saturday afternoon and saturday night when they learned that they were going to transfer oswald down there, the world's press moved from the block on main to the block on main. they were laying on my floor, they were laying on the sidewalks---- mr. hubert. you mean that was saturday night? mr. decker. that was saturday night, waiting for the sunday morning transfer. they just started moving out of the city hall and moved down there--suddenly they were all over the streets, the sidewalks, the floors, we had cameras running out our ears. mr. hubert. television too? mr. decker. yes; everything--live television moved in, and some remained at the city, you see, and they set up down there a press--back and forth--so, i heard that my halls were full and my carport was full, so i moved them all out. i told them to come in the building, bring their cameras with them, that they were going to utilize, and the remainder not operate unless they were on the street--into a room--you will have to see my building to realize it--it's where you walk in the front, you see, the building is on main and you come in the rear from the carport. there is a room that runs down about or feet, which is just an open hall space and a room where people stand who are attempting to get information out of the jail or visit someone in the jail, and i moved them into that and closed the doors on them. mr. hubert. in other words, you cleared them from where? mr. decker. i cleared them from the carport, where the man would be brought in, and put them behind locked doors--i'm talking about steel doors, now. mr. hubert. so, there was no news press or anybody else at the spot where the prisoner would be brought? mr. decker. well, there may have been some on the street--i'm not so sure of that--but what i mean, i cleared the port and kept them in this room where they could only see him as he came by one door and by the second door, and they were away from him a distance then. he was to be in the carport and they were or feet back in the building. mr. hubert. you say you had them under lock and key, but they could see out--could they see through windows? mr. decker. no; bars, they were barred doors. mr. hubert. oh, i see. mr. decker. they were barred doors. mr. hubert. and you put all the press people out there? mr. decker. yes, sir. mr. hubert. did you check to see whether they were press people or not? mr. decker. all in all--i was under the impression that they were--that the majority of them were press people. i don't think there was anybody in that room that wasn't. mr. hubert. i mean, did you have any system of checking? mr. decker. no; i didn't personally check and search each one of them because they had so darn much equipment--everybody had equipment--i don't care who they were, and i had my officers mix and mingle with them and knew most of them. you see, we got pretty well acquainted with that press for or days there because they were continually in our hair, you see. mr. hubert. all right, sir; go ahead. mr. decker. at the outside drive, or at the entrance to my carport--i moved a couple of my men--four or five of my special men there to be sure that it was clear when the man did arrive. i had been notified by curry that maybe they would bring him down in an armored car and i had some other rumors--they would be bringing him in a car, and about that time on those live tv cameras in that room, the flash came that shots had been fired, that there was a riot on in the basement of the city hall, and if you will pardon my french and you don't need to put this in here, young lady, "we caught lightening in the jug in that room," sir. there is no question. they tried to crawl the walls, they tried to tear down those barred doors, they tried to do everything to get out of there and it looked like i would never get them out of the damn room. mr. hubert. you mean the ones you had locked up? mr. decker. the press--they were locked up and couldn't get out of there with all of their equipment, so as i say, "we caught lightening in the jug." there wasn't any question. finally, i got the doors open and they tore out on main street and out on houston street and commandeered cars with cameras hanging on their backs, some of their own equipment, back up main street. i lost the majority of them then for a few minutes. mr. hubert. have you been given any warning by the fbi that they had received a message, or had the message been received, i think, by your office, that some attempt would be made by a group to injure oswald? mr. decker. that's along : or o'clock in the morning--that's when that occurred. that's when i got on the telephone, you see, sir--i'm sure that you don't understand this, but, you know, but no man--it makes no difference how long he is an officer, ever imagined that he could work on an investigation the size of this one and therefore, of course, you realize that my officers and i'm sure some of the city officers, myself included, were working under just a little bit of pressure. anyway, this thing you are talking about came to me from my office man, sergeant mccoy, and he had received a call from the federal bureau of investigation, milt newsom, who stated to him that this boy was going to be killed and that he had good information. he relayed that message to me at my home, and i asked him had the city been notified and he said, "yes." mr. hubert. that was early in the morning, as i recall? mr. decker. it was : ; : in the night. mr. hubert. : on the morning of the th? mr. decker. yes; and i called that office and i talked to a man whom i believe to be frazier, is that correct? i don't know the gentleman only there by telephone conversation. mr. hubert. you, yourself, talked to him and told him what you had heard? mr. decker. i told him what i had heard and talked to him about the transfer, and i even went so far as to advise mccoy to call in a pair of my supervisory personnel to stand by my office, that should they decide to transfer this man, they would be available and we would have the other men moved in there to make it secure--to have the security. mr. hubert. did you make any suggestions that he be moved earlier than the time that had been announced? mr. decker. i did. i suggested to get the man on down to the lower end of main street. mr. hubert. before the time announced? mr. decker. yes; then. mr. hubert. who did you say that to--frazier? mr. decker. i'm sure i told it to frazier and i'm sure there was one or somebody in fritz' office--i don't remember whether it was baker or wells, i talked to one of those persons. mr. hubert. that was when you got this call from the fbi? mr. decker. when i got this call from my night sergeant. mr. hubert. it was still nighttime? mr. decker. yes--it was in the morning-- : in the morning. mr. hubert. it was your suggestion that he should be moved immediately? mr. decker. i felt that he should be moved--yes, sir. mr. hubert. what reply did you get? mr. decker. they stated that they were going to ask him if he wouldn't feel better to talk to his superiors and see what could be done. he called me back shortly and stated that he had had no success in contacting them, and i think that was about the extent of our conversation. i kept my men, my supervisory personnel standing by in the event that they did change their timing or anything and notified us. i asked him if he had any success to call me and that we would make arrangements to take care of the prisoner either way, and i meant by that that we would transfer him or whatever was necessary to be done. mr. hubert. at this point let me ask you: when a man is transferred to your custody, may he thereafter be interviewed by the city police? mr. decker. anybody who wishes to. mr. hubert. so that captain fritz and others could have continued their investigation? mr. decker. it's not customary for them to bring a prisoner down until they have finished their investigation in the city. mr. hubert. i understand that, but the transfer to you would not have cut off their opportunity to investigate? mr. decker. oh, no--no--it wouldn't have cut it off to anybody--any law enforcing agency. just the same as ruby, ruby has been interviewed in my jail by city police, the fbi agents, and incidentally may i ask you a question? mr. hubert. well---- mr. decker. if you can answer it, all well and good--i can't. i keep getting information here that we are going to have you people--you people are going to attempt to interview this prisoner that i have now, and if that is correct, why of course i would like to make some provisions to talk to somebody before it happens. of course, it will take a court order for me to move him, which of course you know is no trouble to obtain--you know that. mr. hubert. i can't comment on that. mr. decker. don't, if you can't, sir--it's all right, but of course i am leaving that with you that i would like to have some advance knowledge. you can comment on that--that you will do it if you have any knowledge. mr. hubert. well, i'm sure if such a decision is made by the people who are authorized to make it, that they will cooperate with you in every way possible. mr. decker. and, i would like to keep it out of the press also because every time i turn around with mr. ruby, i am blasted with this. mr. hubert. of course, that's another matter--that's out of my control. mr. decker. yes. mr. hubert. i repeat that i think that if such a thing should come about, that you would be contacted and that the various problems that might exist in the matter would be discussed with you fully and that the persons representing the commission would cooperate with you. mr. decker. i'm sure they will. mr. hubert. in every way you wish them to do so, consistent, of course, with their mission. mr. decker. it makes no difference. i'm sorry, but i don't seem to have in this file perry mccoy's statement. i think you have a statement from mccoy. mr. hubert. yes. mr. decker. he made one--stating the times that he talked to the man, the conversations, and substantiated exactly practically what i said to you. mr. hubert. i think we have covered the point. mr. decker. i know you have because i sent him up there to be interviewed. mr. hubert. i have heretofore shown you two documents identified as follows: the first being a report of an interview of you by officer neeley. mr. decker. that's correct. mr. hubert. on november , . mr. decker. that's where i told him i didn't wish to discuss the matter any further over the telephone. mr. hubert. i have identified it by marking on the margin, "dallas, texas, april , , exhibit , deposition of sheriff j. e. decker." that consists of one page. the second document also consists of one page. it is a report of an interview by james w. bookhout of you on november , . that document i have marked for identification as follows: "dallas, texas, april , , exhibit , deposition of sheriff j. e. decker," and i have signed my name. i think you have had an opportunity to read these two? mr. decker. yes. mr. hubert. i should like to ask you, sir, if these documents are fair statements of the interviews that you had with the fbi agents indicated? mr. decker. yes, sir. mr. hubert. are they correct? mr. decker. yes, sir. mr. hubert. have you any comment to make with respect to either one of them? mr. decker. no, sir; i think they speak for themselves, sir. mr. hubert. may i ask if you have any particular comment, sheriff, to make with regard to the last paragraph of exhibit , which reads in part as follows: "sheriff decker stated that he had no desire to discuss this matter further and does not desire to furnish any details of the conversations he had with the police department and declined to say whether he advised the police department he had a preference as to the time of day the transfer of the prisoner should be made." mr. decker. that was a telephone conversation. i had an office full of people and that's what it was and i didn't make any statement--no more than i made directly to you here about the call, and which mccoy made, which is a statement which you have from mccoy in your files. mr. hubert. as i understand it, then, your explanation of the paragraph is that you did not wish to discuss the matter further over the telephone and in the presence of the people who were there? mr. decker. well, i don't believe i went that far. i just said i didn't care to discuss it any further and i got my friend neeley off the line. that's all there was to it. and i never had the opportunity to talk to him afterward again until i met him several days ago, you know, he works in north texas and is in and out, but that's all the conversation he and i had--what you have there. mr. hubert. well, what i had in mind to ask you was this: on the face of the paragraph that i have just read from exhibit , it looks like there was an attitude on your part that you didn't wish to cooperate with the fbi--i am just simply wanting to get the record straight from your point of view--as to what was your intention. mr. decker. as i said at that time--i didn't care to discuss it any further at that time. that's all there is to it. mr. hubert. yes; i understand, but this paragraph is correct and stands as it is? mr. decker. yes, sir; i did not--at that time i didn't discuss it. there was no reason to go into why, and why--i told him my reasons a moment ago. mr. hubert. now, sheriff, i have noticed that you have looked from time to time at a book which i gather must be your own or the official record? mr. decker. no; it's part of my records there. it doesn't have all the statements in it as it should have. mr. hubert. were copies of those statements made--are they available? mr. decker. they are yours--you can have them if you want them to keep them. mr. hubert. this copy? mr. decker. you can have the whole thing. the only thing that is not in there is mccoy's and about three or four other statements. i will submit the whole thing to you if you want it right now. you can take it with you. i have no objections. mr. hubert. do you wish to have this returned to you--this seems to be a copy anyway--this is not the original. mr. decker. yes; those are photostatic copies. i can furnish you those others--i can furnish you that copy on mccoy and i can furnish the copy on two or three others that i have down there but i don't know where mccoy's is and i don't know whether they left it out of there or not--since mccoy's i have testified to, i would like to furnish it to you. mr. hubert. all right. mr. decker. and will send it to you shortly. mr. hubert. let me mark this document, then--i am marking it, "dallas, tex., april , , as exhibit , deposition of sheriff j. e. decker," and i am signing my name to it. the document is actually a dark brown heavy folder with an acco fastener. it is called acco press on the inside and bears the label on the outside, "harvey lee oswald, wm , murder-- - - of john fitzgerald kennedy; w-m- , president of the united states. assault to murder: gov. john b. connally." on the left hand bottom side of the cover is a sticker on which there is typewritten "file of: sheriff's department, dallas, tex., bill decker, sheriff," under which i have written the identification of it as i dictated it a moment ago into the record. turning on to the inside of the book, it seems to be divided up into parts. there is a yellow, light cardboard division marker, which in the left hand bottom says, "crime reports." in that are yellow sheets and white sheets. i am marking the cover with my initials and the yellow and white sheets with my initials, all in the lower right hand corner. the next subdivision which is made by a light cardboard sheet, is entitled, "witness affidavits." i am marking it with my initials. mr. decker. now, you are supposed to have copies of all of those affidavits come to you from some agency--i don't know which. mr. hubert. and, each of the sheets thereof i am marking with my initials. there are of such sheets. then, in the last part of the book, also divided by a light yellow cardboard sheet on which i am putting my initials, that division sheet is entitled "officers supplement," and there are sheets which i have marked with my initials. is this document, sheriff decker, that you have handed me a complete record of what you have concerning oswald? i think you mentioned that there might be one document or two that you wished to send me? mr. decker. i would like to send you a copy of mccoy's statement, a copy of mccoy's report in there and maybe a couple of other statements, that's all. there may be some others--i can send those to you anywhere--washington or anywhere, it makes no difference, or i can send them up here to you in the next minutes after i leave here. mr. hubert. after lunch will be all right. mr. decker. fine, i will send them up. mr. hubert. i will just attach them to this exhibit. mr. decker. that's all right--they belong in there and i don't know how they got out, but in comparing them, making a new one up, you lose some once in a while--as much paperwork as we do in law enforcement fields this day and time, you lose a heck of a lot of it. mr. hubert. now, sheriff decker, has any member of the commission's staff interviewed you other than myself? mr. decker. no, sir. mr. hubert. have you anything further you wish to add? mr. decker. i don't know why i should take any more of your time. you have practically everything i have that is of value to you. if there is anything further you want--we are available and you have a big job to do---- mr. hubert. well, that's all right--that's what i'm here for. mr. decker. i know that. mr. hubert. but if we know all that you know, then that's all right. mr. decker. that's right--so, there is no reason of going over it. mr. hubert. is it your thought that considering your testimony here today and what you have told the fbi and your records---- mr. decker. and my records that i have given to you--turned over to you and what my other deputies have given to you, i don't know of any reason to take up any more of your time, sir. mr. hubert. all right, thank you very much. mr. decker. i will be delighted to have you come and see my operation before you leave and it might clear up some things there for you. mr. hubert. all right, thank you. mr. decker. thank you. testimony of capt. w. b. frazier the testimony of capt. w. b. frazier was taken at p.m., on march , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. leon d. hubert, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. hubert. this is the deposition of capt. w. b. frazier, dallas police department. captain frazier, my name is leon hubert. i am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel on the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy. captain frazier. yes. mr. hubert. under the provisions of president johnson's executive order no. , dated november , , and the joint resolution of congress no. , and the rules of procedure adopted by the president's commission in conformance with the executive order and the joint resolution, i have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, among many officers of the detective bureau. your name has been specifically mentioned as a person from whom i could take a sworn deposition. i state to you now that the general nature of the commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of president kennedy and the subsequent violent death of lee harvey oswald. in particular as to you, captain frazier, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. now, captain, you have appeared here today by virtue of a letter addressed to chief curry by mr. j. lee rankin, who is the general counsel for the president's commission. under the rules adopted by the commission every witness is entitled to a -day written notice prior to the taking of his deposition. the rules also provide, however, that if the witness wishes he may waive the -day notice in writing. i say to you that you have a right to the -day notice, which you have not received, but i ask you if you wish to waive that day---- captain frazier. no. mr. hubert. you don't wish---- captain frazier. oh, i will waive it. mr. hubert. you do not wish to persist in your right to have the -day notice? captain frazier. no. mr. hubert. then i'll ask you to stand, sir, and raise your right hand to be sworn. do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? captain frazier. yes, sir. mr. hubert. will you state your full name, please? mr. frazier. william bennett frazier. mr. hubert. your age? mr. frazier. forty-three. mr. hubert. where do you live, sir? mr. frazier. newcastle, garland, tex. mr. hubert. what is your occupation? mr. frazier. police officer. mr. hubert. how long have you been on the police department of dallas? mr. frazier. for - / years. mr. hubert. you have the rank of captain? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. hubert. what particular function or duties are you assigned to in the department, sir? mr. frazier. i am in charge of the radio patrol platoon. mr. hubert. who is your immediate superior? mr. frazier. chief n. t. fisher. mr. hubert. did you have the same rank and the same duties during the period november to , ? mr. frazier. i did, yes, sir. mr. hubert. now, i understand that you were on duty on the morning of the th of november, is that correct, sir? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. hubert. what time did you come on duty? do you know? mr. frazier. at p.m., on the d. mr. hubert. i think that is what they call the first shift? mr. frazier. first platoon. mr. hubert. first platoon, rather, and that goes until roughly in the morning? mr. frazier. around ; yes, sir. mr. hubert. had you been on duty the night before, that is, on first platoon. that would have been---- mr. frazier. what day would it have been, sir? mr. hubert. well, it would have been the d. mr. frazier. i mean, what day of the week. mr. hubert. oh, the day before would have been saturday. mr. frazier. yes, sir; i was on duty at the time. that would have been the first platoon. yes, sir; i was on duty at the time. mr. hubert. was your office, in fact, in the building? mr. frazier. on the second floor. mr. hubert. did you have anything to do at all with the interrogation, or the security of oswald? mr. frazier. no, sir. mr. hubert. now, on the th of november, about in the middle of the shift there, about or : or : that morning, i understand you received a telephone call from an fbi agent, is that correct? mr. frazier. yes, sir; mr. newsom, i believe his name is. mr. hubert. can you tell me how it came to you? how did the call come to you? mr. frazier. mr. newsom called me and said he had received a threat from some man to the effect that a group of men, i believe he indicated they had or , i don't recall the exact number, were going to attempt to kill oswald that day sometime. that he didn't want the fbi, dallas police department or the sheriff's office injured in any way. that was the reason for the call. so, mr. newsom called me and related that story to me. mr. hubert. were you in charge of the police department at the time? mr. frazier. i was in charge of the patrol section. mr. hubert. patrol section? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. hubert. what other senior officers were on duty? mr. frazier. i guess i was the senior on any division at that morning; yes, sir. mr. hubert. as i understand it, chief curry was not there, chief batchelor was not there? mr. frazier. no, sir. mr. hubert. stevenson was not there? mr. frazier. no, sir. mr. hubert. who is your immediate superior? mr. frazier. fisher. he was not there. mr. hubert. you, in fact, were the ranking officer? mr. frazier. on duty at that time; yes, sir. mr. hubert. were you aware of that? i mean, are you made aware of that? mr. frazier. oh, yes, sir; yes, sir. mr. hubert. how is it done? mr. frazier. well, just the fact that the officers under--who rank under you are there, and there is nobody of equal rank or higher present in the entire police department, it reverts to you. mr. hubert. the highest in rank is in charge of the whole operation? mr. frazier. it is. mr. hubert. so, if someone had asked for who was in--if newsom had asked to speak to the top man in charge, you were that man, that day? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. hubert. had you heard any of that news of that sort from another source? mr. frazier. no, sir. mr. hubert. do you know a man by the name of deputy cox, or coy in the sheriff's---- mr. frazier. i talked to that man later on in the morning after mr. newsom called me. but i don't know the name, whether it was coy, or cox, but he indicated that sheriff decker wanted to talk to chief curry in regards to moving oswald, so, i, in turn then attempted to contact chief curry by telephone and his line was busy. mr. hubert. that was about what time? mr. frazier. i don't know. : , o'clock, somewhere along there. then i tried for some or minutes to get his line, and it was busy, so, i asked the operator to check into it. she came back and said the line was out of order, so, i in turn, was preparing to send a squad by the chief's home and tell him of the information and that decker wanted him to call him and captain talbert relieved me around or : . i give him the information and he said he sent a squad later and told the chief about it. mr. hubert. i think earlier you had called captain fritz, hadn't you? mr. frazier. yes, i called captain fritz once or twice in an effort to see if they were handling it or if the chief was handling it, or if homicide--captain fritz was handling it. since he is the captain in charge of that particular bureau, so, naturally i called him first. mr. hubert. that was when you got the message from newsom? mr. frazier. a little while later; yes, sir. mr. hubert. what did he say about it? mr. frazier. he said i should talk to chief curry, that he was handling the transfer. mr. hubert. that chief curry---- mr. frazier. yes, sir; not him. mr. hubert. not him? did he tell you of any plans made for the transfer? did captain fritz tell you of any plans made for the transfer? mr. frazier. i don't recall, sir. he may have said--i'm not sure. i heard this later on in the morning, i think, but i'm not sure. he may have said then that he planned to move him around the next day. i don't recall whether he said it or some other officer said it later on in the morning, but i did hear it. now, i don't say whether captain fritz is the one that told me or not. i don't recall the exact conversation there other than the fact that i had asked him if he was handling it and he said, "no." chief curry was handling it. mr. hubert. do you remember when you spoke to mr. newsom from the fbi whether mr. newsom told you that the dallas sheriff's office had received a similar call to the one he was relating to you? mr. frazier. no; i don't recall that. he possibly--he could have said it, but i do not recall it, sir. mr. hubert. when the gentlemen from the sheriff's office, either cox or coy, called you that was simply about when the transfer was going to take place, is that correct? mr. frazier. i assume that is what it was. he indicated to me that decker wanted to get ahold of chief curry and move him as soon as possible. mr. hubert. did that man mention to you about the receipt of any threats such as newsom had told you about? mr. frazier. i believe he did. mr. hubert. that was the second threat you had received that morning? in other words, the threat came from two sources, so far as you know. you heard it from the fbi, and this man from the sheriff's office? mr. frazier. indicated---- mr. hubert. indicated that he had received a threat? mr. frazier. i believe he did; yes. mr. hubert. do you remember saying to mr. newsom that the plan to transfer oswald to the county jail might be changed in view of the threat that he had conveyed to you? mr. frazier. no, sir; no, sir. that wasn't any of my business, that transfer, and i'm sure i didn't relate that to him, because i'd be telling him something that i didn't know about, really, at that time. mr. hubert. do you remember telling mr. newsom of the fbi, on the occasion that he called you that morning around or : , that oswald's plans of transfer had been publicized primarily as a form of cooperation with press and news agencies? mr. frazier. no, sir. mr. hubert. you did not make that---- mr. frazier. huh-uh. mr. hubert. you did not make that statement? mr. frazier. i did not make any such statement. mr. hubert. was there any planned transfer, to your knowledge? mr. frazier. all i knew that they was supposed to move the next day, and then perhaps later in the morning i--maybe captain fritz told me that they were supposed to move him around a.m., that morning. mr. hubert. that is as to time, but did you know of any plans prior to going off duty that day as to the method, the route, and the vehicles to be used? mr. frazier. no, sir; no, sir. mr. hubert. what time did you go off duty, sir? mr. frazier. it was around or : , or something like that, sir. mr. hubert. what time did you come back then? mr. frazier. if that was---- mr. hubert. did you leave the department and go home? mr. frazier. yes; i went home and i went to bed. i was asleep when oswald was shot. mr. hubert. when did you hear about that? mr. frazier. my wife awakened me shortly thereafter. she had seen it on tv. she was watching the transfer on tv, and she awakened me. mr. hubert. did you go down there? mr. frazier. no, sir; i called and asked if they needed me. they said, "no, stay where you are. you will have to work tonight." so, i stayed there. mr. hubert. fritz has said--did i understand you to say, that curry was in charge of all transfers? mr. frazier. was in charge of that transfer. mr. hubert. of that particular--of oswald's transfer? mr. frazier. yes. mr. hubert. do you know a man by the name of w. j. harrison, i think they call him "blackie," a detective? mr. frazier. yes, sir; he is a patrolman temporarily assigned to cid. yes, sir; i believe he is in the juvenile bureau. i'm not sure, but i think he is. mr. hubert. did you ever hear him talk about his experiences on the th? mr. frazier. no, sir; i haven't seen him. i haven't seen "blackie" in, i guess, months or so, maybe longer. mr. hubert. do you know patrick dean? mr. frazier. p. t. dean? sergeant dean? i know him; yes, sir. mr. hubert. have you spoken to him about his activities on that day? mr. frazier. no, sir; he works on another platoon and another captain and i don't come in contact with him very often except just to say hello as we are going off duty or coming on and only one i confer with is the captain in charge of the platoon coming on when i leave. mr. hubert. the radio patrol is what, actually? mr. frazier. it is the regular squad car, two-man squad car that patrols the entire city. we have anywhere from to men on duty at most platoons. however, our day platoon is our lowest. it will run , . mr. hubert. these men are cruising areas? mr. frazier. yes, sir; districts. mr. hubert. and they are controlled by radio communication from your office? mr. frazier. no, sir; from the dispatcher's office, which is---- mr. hubert. so, if you want to contact any of those people you can do it directly, you do it through a dispatcher? mr. frazier. through the dispatcher; yes, sir. mr. hubert. when you--were you on duty when the president was shot? mr. frazier. no, sir. mr. hubert. were you called in? mr. frazier. no, sir. mr. hubert. you just took your regular shift at o'clock that night? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. hubert. you had gotten off at o'clock? mr. frazier. or that morning; yes, sir. mr. hubert. if we would want to find out about the dispatch sent out right after the president's death, or right before, whom would we contact? what would be the name of the officer? mr. frazier. lumpkin, george lumpkin. mr. hubert. lumpkin? mr. frazier. yes, sir; he is in charge of all communications and i believe most of that is on tape. they tried to tape most of the conversations. mr. hubert. they keep the tape? mr. frazier. yes; permanent records, as i understand it. mr. hubert. now, i show you a document which i have marked for identification with the following inscription, in my own handwriting, "dallas, tex., march , , exhibit , deposition of w. b. frazier." i have signed the first page, and placed my initials in the lower right hand corner of the second page. i'll ask you if that statement--if you have read that document and whether it is substantially correct? mr. frazier. yes, sir; it is. mr. hubert. i would ask you, therefore, if you would sign your name under mine and place your initials under mine on the second page? mr. frazier. right here, sir? mr. hubert. yes; right there and then sign your name on the front page right under my signature there. mr. frazier. over here? mr. hubert. yes. mr. frazier. all right, sir. mr. hubert. now, i hand you another document which i have marked for--"dallas, tex., march , , exhibit , deposition of w. b. frazier." i have signed my name to the bottom of this document which purports to be a report by special agent melton l. newsom of the fbi, of a conversation which he had over the telephone with you on november , , at about : a.m., and i'll ask you if that report by mr. newsom of that conversation is a correct report of that conversation? mr. frazier. no, sir; i don't believe it is. mr. hubert. would you indicate what parts are correct and what parts are wrong? mr. frazier. now, you are asking of my own knowledge, is that correct? mr. hubert. yes, sir. mr. frazier. now, this first paragraph here, i know nothing of this. mr. glassup. he didn't talk to me. mr. hubert. no; i think the---- mr. frazier. and, he received the call i understand here, and it goes into, "i represent a committee that--it is neither right nor left wing," and so forth. i didn't get all that in the conversation with newsom, that i recall. newsom told me that a group of men, i believe he indicated a hundred or two were going to kill oswald the following day, the day after the night--or, you know, the next day or two. now, that was essentially what he told me. mr. hubert. do you say he didn't tell you that had been received by glassup? mr. frazier. no, sir; he said they received information, or threats. mr. hubert. nor did he give you the exact language of the threat, as indicated in that? mr. frazier. no, sir; he did not. mr. hubert. he simply told you that they had received the threat and the sense of the threat was along the lines of the paragraph, first paragraph? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. hubert. but, neither mentioned glassup's name, nor did he speak the exact quoted language which--when he spoke to you? mr. frazier. that's right. mr. hubert. now, what about the next paragraph, second paragraph? mr. frazier. yes, sir; that is essentially correct. however, i believe he did advise the dallas sheriff's office had received a similar call. that is essentially correct, that paragraph. mr. hubert. all right; what about the third paragraph? mr. frazier. the third paragraph, i don't recall making that statement. mr. hubert. what about the fourth paragraph? mr. frazier. because, at that time, i did not know exactly what the plans were to move oswald, see. mr. hubert. and what about the last paragraph? mr. frazier. no, sir; no, sir. mr. hubert. you mean to say that you do not recall? mr. frazier. no, sir; i do not recall making that statement to mr. newsom. mr. hubert. i would like for you to do this then with reference to that document. just place the word, next to the last paragraph, "incorrect," and initial it. mr. frazier. all right, sir. mr. hubert. have you initialled it? mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. hubert. all right; now, with that---- mr. frazier. and the top paragraph. mr. hubert. well, the top paragraph---- mr. frazier. i couldn't attest to that either. mr. hubert. please explain what your position is on it, and if you would like to sign your name just below mine so then we have the matter in hand. mr. frazier. yes, sir. mr. hubert. now, is there anything else that you would like to state that has not been said? mr. frazier. no, sir; nothing more to my knowledge. mr. hubert. prior to the commencement of this deposition with you, have you been interviewed by any member of the commission's staff? mr. frazier. no, sir. mr. hubert. you were not interviewed by me, in fact, before it began? mr. frazier. no. mr. hubert. thank you very much. testimony of capt. o. a. jones the testimony of capt. o. a. jones was taken at a.m., on march , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. leon d. hubert, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. hubert. this is the dallas deposition of capt. o. a. jones, forgery bureau, dallas police department. my name is leon d. hubert, jr. i am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy. under the provisions of the executive order , dated november , , the joint resolution of congress, no. , and the rules of procedure adopted by the commission in conformance with the executive order and the commission, i have been authorized to take the sworn deposition from you, mr. jones. i state to you now that the general nature on the commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of president kennedy and the subsequent violent death of lee harvey oswald. in particular as to you captain jones, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of oswald and any other pertinent fact you may know about the general inquiry. captain jones, you have appeared here today by virtue of a general request made by the general counsel on the staff of the president's commission to chief curry. under the rules adopted by the commission you are entitled to have a -day written notice prior to the taking of this deposition. the rules of the commission also provide that the witness may waive the notice. do you waive the -day notice now? captain jones. yes, sir; i do. mr. hubert. will you be sworn, please? captain jones. yes, sir. mr. hubert. raise your right hand. do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? captain jones. i do. mr. hubert. captain jones, please state your full name? captain jones. orville [spelling] o-r-v-i-l-l-e aubrey [spelling] a-u-b-r-e-y jones. mr. hubert. your age? captain jones. forty-nine. mr. hubert. and your residence? captain jones. alco [spelling] a-l-c-o avenue, dallas , tex. mr. hubert. what is your present occupation, captain jones? captain jones. captain in the city police department, dallas, tex. mr. hubert. how long have you held that rank, sir? captain jones. april of . mr. hubert. what is your particular assignment now? captain jones. commanding officer in the forgery bureau. mr. hubert. you are under chief stevenson? captain jones. m. w. stevenson is my superior officer. mr. hubert. and your rank and duties were the same during the period of november and , ? captain jones. yes, sir. mr. hubert. now, captain, i show you three documents which i am numbering--i show you three documents upon which i am writing the following in the lower right-hand corner. "dallas, texas, march , . exhibit no. , deposition of capt. o. a. jones." beneath which i have signed my name, leon d. hubert. the second document which i am endorsing "dallas, texas, march , , exhibit no. , deposition of capt. o. a. jones," and i am signing my signature below that. that document consisting of three pages, and i am initialing--two other--to revert back for a moment to no. , that has a second page and i am placing my initials on the second page of that document in the lower right-hand corner. third document, i am writing on the right-hand margin the following: "dallas, texas, march , . exhibit . deposition of capt. o. a. jones," and i am signing my name below that. that document containing three pages. i am taking my initials and placing them on the second and third pages. now, captain, i think you have read these three documents which i---- captain jones. i have; yes, sir. mr. hubert. now, i would like you to place your name below mine on each one of these pages, please, and your initials below mine on the other pages, after which i'm going to ask you some questions concerning these documents. captain jones. all right, sir. mr. hubert. just below mine and then initial the second and third page below my initials there. now, captain, i think you have already stated that you have read these three documents? captain jones. yes, sir. mr. hubert. exhibit , , and , and i am going to ask you if, in your opinion, those documents represent the truth, or if you have any kind of amendments, modifications, or additions that you want to make? captain jones. there are some additions. mr. hubert. would you state for the record what amendments or modifications, whatever else you have to about the documents. captain jones. this is off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. hubert. now, back on the record. anyhow, with reference directed at , captain, what have you to say as to that? that being a report of special agents james w. bookhout and joseph m. meyers, of an interview of you by those gentlemen on november , . captain jones. first, let me say that they make reference--they are correct, but they have grouped together under "specific instructions that i received." i received, at two different times, that is not at the same time. at first, when i was sent downstairs chief stevenson gave me instructions to go to the commerce street ramp, place two patrolmen there to assist an armored car down that ramp to get it backed as far down as possible, down in the basement---- mr. hubert. before you leave that, do you know about what time it was? captain jones. i'd say only about o'clock, and it could have been a little before because of the amount of time required on that, but i didn't look at my watch. mr. hubert. thank you. captain jones. do you want me to go on to the other points? mr. hubert. yes. captain jones. the other part. in one sentence i gave, he has specific instructions about keeping them back, and chief batchelor and chief stevenson did so later when they came to the basement, and i called the attention that photographers were out in the other part of the jail office now, and there was nothing said upstairs--said about clearing anything except what i said that one thing, except--take--taking any detectives remaining on the third floor and placing them where i wanted them, where i felt they would be needed. that goes into it a little more in detail, but by having that in front of me right now. if you could, i can show you the point that he states he instructed me to secure the area for the transport of lee harvey oswald from the dallas city jail to the dallas county jail--with additional specific instructions from chief stevenson or chief batchelor or to have detectives under their supervision to question the news media to keep the basement east of the driveway--that came up after we got down in the basement, and it reads maybe as if it was given at another place. mr. hubert. what you have just read and commented upon is from the first paragraph of a document ? right? captain jones. yes, sir; right. mr. hubert. go ahead now. captain jones. the--in other words, the two instructions given previously before i went to the basement were: one, to arrange to have officers assist the armored truck which they told me was en route, to back into the commerce street ramp down into the city hall and as far as possible. number two; take any remaining detectives from the third floor down to the basement and place them where i thought they might be needed. mr. hubert. would you state for the record how you carried out those specific orders? captain jones. yes, sir; i made a round of all cib bureaus, with the exception of homicide and robbery, which was working on the assassination, and got--i can't tell you, two or three or some detectives that were remaining, and we went down the elevator. this is the one i went down with the--and i don't know who they were, and don't have any names. didn't make a detail--but i went up and did see patrolman jez and one other patrolman that i don't know his name---- mr. hubert. they were in uniform? captain jones. they were in uniform. they would remain and assist the armored truck in backing down there. and the detectives that had come with me were standing at the jail office. i had left them at the door of the jail office, and coming back toward the ramp, i came upon captain talbert, in charge of the patrol division, and told him that patrolman jez and the other officer were up there and what the chief had said. mr. hubert. all right. now, have you any other comments to make about---- captain jones. now, that is all about that. mr. hubert. now, i understand that that is document ? captain jones. let me check on this now for sure. that is--yes; that is all right now. mr. hubert. all right. and exhibit . captain jones. may i ask you a question? mr. hubert. yes, sir. captain jones. now then, the instructions about checking that, you want to get to that later that i got--where chief batchelor and chief stevenson---- mr. hubert. what i want to do is get through these documents. captain jones. all right, sir. now, our next exhibit. that would be ? mr. hubert. yes. that is the letter addressed on november th, to chief j. e. curry? captain jones. yes, sir. mr. hubert. this is a copy of the original which apparently was signed by you? captain jones. yes, sir; that's right. mr. hubert. i think you have read it. captain jones. i have read it, and only one thing on that. that is on page , at the top--where i had two different directions running from the jail office door across the ramp running east, and then i turned and went south, and we called that east, too, but it is--only thing the right is running, instead of east, should have read south. mr. hubert. where is that, sir? captain jones. all right, sir. i will show you. up here this word "east," probably should be "south." mr. hubert. suppose we change that from "this point running east," and i will encircle it and put the word "south," and putting my own initial below the change, and ask you if you would---- captain jones. running east from the door of the jail office to the rail on the opposite side, and down a line from this point running south. yes, sir; that's right. mr. hubert. so, just initial the change then and the word "east," which we encircled and changed to "south," and captain jones and myself are initialling the change. captain jones. yes, sir. mr. hubert. other than that, do you have any changes that should be made? captain jones. let that stand. mr. hubert. then this document which i have identified as exhibit , being the report by the fbi, specifically by agents edward mabey and kenneth hughes [spelling] h-u-g-h-e-s, of an interview with you, apparently, on december , , and ask you if you have any corrections to make as to that? captain jones. yes, sir; there are one or two changes that i would like to make in that. mr. hubert. all right. captain jones. let's see. can i see it just one moment, sir? mr. hubert. sure. captain jones. all right. i would like to make the following changes. at the bottom of page , of exhibit--that is , i believe? mr. hubert. that's right. captain jones. the last sentence that reads, "jones assisted in holding back the press line during the process, and gave instructions to all officers near the jail office and the door to allow no one in the area from the jail to the automobile, down the route the prisoner was to take." mr. hubert. now, what is your comment? captain jones. the comment is that the sentence should have read, "jones assisted holding back the press lines through the process of moving the automobile onto the ramp." the rest of the sentence refers back to just prior to that when the instructions had been given to keep those things clear. immediately following the clearing of the jail office is when i gave those instructions at that time, to hold the people back and get those--i did not have time or the opportunity, and did not turn at that time and tell everybody that we were trying to get the car back up into position. mr. hubert. have you any change or comments to make upon the document-- ? captain jones. yes, sir; on page , of this same exhibit. mr. hubert. off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. hubert. now, back on the record. captain jones. beginning with the first complete paragraph that says, "jones was walking up the commerce street ramp when he heard from behind him, 'here he comes,' from an unidentified individual," and on that, there is only one change. whereas, jones was walking toward the commerce street ramp instead of up it, now. mr. hubert. in other words, you were not---- captain jones. in other words, i was not up on the rise itself. i was walking toward it. mr. hubert. heading from what direction? captain jones. from the general area in front of the jail office door, out in the flat area. the ramps come down like [indicating] straighten out. the jail is here [indicating]. mr. hubert. in other words, what you wish to point out is that the commerce street ramp takes an upturn about half way up the ramp? captain jones. yes, sir. mr. hubert. and that you want to indicate that you had not reached the up-rise? captain jones. no, sir; i had not. mr. hubert. but, you were in the ramp that runs between main and commerce, but on the level part? captain jones. on the level part, and walking toward the rise. mr. hubert. walking toward the rise. any other comments concerning that? captain jones. yes, sir; on page ---- mr. hubert. ? captain jones. . mr. hubert. what paragraph? captain jones. it will be the last sentence; begins on page . mr. hubert. all right; the last sentence beginning on page . will you read it then? captain jones. "jones then placed two officers at the swinging door just outside the jail office, and advised them not to let persons leave who had proper identification---- mr. hubert. latter part of that sentence is at the top of page , of that exhibit , is that right? captain jones. yes, sir. the correction, sir, that is "jones then placed two officers at the swinging doors just outside the jail office and advised them to let the reporters and news media who had identification come to the third floor." mr. hubert. other than that change, that sentence, you think, is correct? captain jones. that's correct, yes, sir. now, i have one more. mr. hubert. all right. what page? captain jones. it is the last paragraph of page , first sentence that reads---- mr. hubert. now, you are talking about exhibit ? captain jones. yes, sir. "due to the fact that jones was recalled from vacation, he wasn't present at any briefing on the security measures that were to be in effect in the basement on november , ." mr. hubert. all right? captain jones. now, on that, i had been due to go on vacation on friday. i had continued on through. i don't know why i wasn't in on any briefing or anything. i am going to say that is the reason i wasn't, for i was down there, and that was, i'm sure--i have told the gentlemen these facts and so forth, but that i didn't attend a briefing, that i had planned to go on vacation immediately after the president's speech at the the trade mart, and--but i can't say why i wasn't called in on any briefing. i just wasn't in on any of them. mr. hubert. just while we are on that subject, is it a fact that you were supposed to go on a leave as soon as the president left dallas? captain jones. on friday; yes, sir. mr. hubert. on friday? captain jones. yes, sir. mr. hubert. in fact, did you go? captain jones. no, sir. mr. hubert. would you state very briefly for me your activities from the time of the night before the president's visit up until the th? just very briefly. captain jones. all right, sir. i had been assigned previously in the week to have charge of the fourth floor at the trade mart where the president's luncheon was to be held. on thursday night before---- mr. hubert. wait. thursday night? captain jones. thursday night before the luncheon. i was rather wakeful and a little nervous, certainly not anticipating an assassination, but because of some unfortunate incidents in dallas, there was a desire not to have anything happen that would reflect on the city, and certainly even a humiliating incident such as throwing paper, eggs, or shouting or anything such as that. a little apprehensive about it, and didn't sleep very much. went out to the trade mart on friday and stationed quite a few officers at all the places on the fourth floor. i had a listing and a schedule and all that. remained there until afternoon--that is, after news of the assassination, and until we were told that we could leave. i then returned to the city hall and en route had cleared with the dispatcher that if he didn't have further instructions for the group with me that we would return to the city hall. i returned, and i immediately made every officer available to captain fritz. i don't know how long that we worked that night for sure, but i do know it was after o'clock when the fbi agent vince drain left the city hall with some--some evidence he was going to take, and that was about o'clock, saturday morning, the th. mr. hubert. did you go home---- captain jones. yes, i did go home for possibly to hours and laid down. didn't rest very much. we came back down saturday and continued working with captain fritz. making my offices available and my men available to him during the day saturday until saturday evening when we filed our--our bureau filed the assault to murder charge on oswald for the shooting of governor connally, which is our bureau that, assault to murder--that handles assault to murder. captain fritz' bureau handles murder, and by this time i--that was filed, i began to help take incoming calls and to assist in any way that i could up there in the administration offices. stayed up there until at least nearly midnight saturday night. went home, got a few hours of troubled sleep that night. before i left, chief stevenson told me that it looked like my cases were all filed, everything was in pretty good shape. i might as well go ahead and take my vacation as i had planned and i told him i couldn't enjoy--a little fishing trip was what i had planned--until it was all over. mr. hubert. let me go back a moment. there was a lineup of some kind on the night of friday, november , at which oswald was brought into the lineup in the assembly room at the police department, at which a number of news media were present. captain jones. yes, sir. mr. hubert. were you present that night? captain jones. no, sir; i was on the third floor at that time. mr. hubert. do you know jack ruby? captain jones. i have known him. mr. hubert. just state how well and under what circumstances. captain jones. yes, sir; i will be glad to do that. and i do want to ask--can i say something off the record here? mr. hubert. yes. (discussion off the record.) mr. hubert. get back on the record. during the off-the-record period, captain jones simply explained to me that he had omitted something from his comments relative to what? captain jones. relative to knowing jack ruby. i've got to find---- mr. hubert. relative to what document? captain jones. . document ; that would be the first complete paragraph on page , where it states, "jones states that he did know ruby and had known him prior to , when he ran the silver spur, a nightclub on south central. he stated that prior to , he was a lieutenant covering this district and did go into the silver spur, at the most, six times looking for white subjects." mr. hubert. would you state your comments on that? captain jones. the comment is that, "jones stated that he did know ruby and had known him prior to , when he ran the silver spur, a nightclub on south ervay." the next sentence should read, "he stated that prior to , he was a detective assigned mostly to colored cases, but that occasionally we were assigned cases involving white suspects, and on a few occasions did go in the silver spur during those investigations." mr. hubert. all right. captain jones. i was asked how many times, and i could not estimate how many times. i said, "not over six times, probably, altogether." mr. hubert. let me put it this way to you. did you know him well enough so that you would have recognized him had he walked into a room? captain jones. that is a question in my mind that i doubt very much that i would have. i did recognize him in the basement after someone said--before i ever saw who it ever was in custody, that it was jack ruby, and when i was told that in advance i did recognize him. otherwise, it is possible that i might have recognized him had i been given that opportunity but i did not have the opportunity. mr. hubert. did you see him, that is to say, jack ruby, in your rounds of the basement any time, from the shooting of the president until the shooting of oswald? captain jones. to recognize him as such, i did not see him to recognize him then. and after seeing him at the time of the arrest, i did not recall having seen him even as a face in the crowd prior to that. mr. hubert. would you say that now with the consideration after having been told that it was jack ruby and recognizing him, you still don't remember having seen---- captain jones. i did not see that particular man in there, and not having recognized him, i don't recall seeing that face, at any time. this is with the full knowledge that since this matter i have found that one of my own men filed a simple assault case on him about a year ago, but i wasn't aware of that. mr. hubert. did you know of any plans that had been made at that time for the transportation of oswald, prior to leaving to go home on saturday night, the d of november? captain jones. that is one of the questions that i am going to have to say that things have come up that during my investigation that i headed following the shooting of oswald, by ruby--that i headed a team of several lieutenants, and one detective investigating the security in the basement--and i have some knowledge as a result of that investigation, that no one came to me and told me about the possible transfer, or--possible transfer, or any plans for a transfer prior to me going home saturday night. mr. hubert. were you aware that the plan was not to transfer oswald until at least o'clock on sunday morning? captain jones. it seems to me as if possibly there was something about that in my mind, but i can't tell you where i got it, but there was some talk around there. i don't know whether the time was o'clock, or o'clock, and since that time i have talked to people that said, "i don't know," but it does seem to me that i was under the impression that when i got up sunday morning that if i got down there before o'clock, he possibly would not have been transferred by that time, but so help me, i cannot think--i cannot say how that i knew that. mr. hubert. let me put it to you another way. were you given any specific duty to perform or anything relative to the transfer whenever that would take place? captain jones. you mean prior to that o'clock, when i was sent to the basement? mr. hubert. yes; prior to saturday night. captain jones. no, sir. mr. hubert. prior to leaving on saturday night---- captain jones. in fact, i was told that if i wanted to go on my fishing trip, i could go. mr. hubert. so, then you got back at what time? captain jones. i would say somewhere roughly around o'clock, couldn't have been much after that. mr. hubert. did you do anything between and, say, o'clock? captain jones. yes, sir; i sure did. mr. hubert. tell us what you did. captain jones. i was answering the telephone, and i can't recall specific things. it was just things that come up that needed doing right then. getting calls---- mr. hubert. let me ask you the same question i asked about the other period. were you given any specific duties to do, or specific functions as to supervising concerning the transfer of oswald during this period of to, say, o'clock, or roughly o'clock, on the th? captain jones. no, sir. mr. hubert. were you simply answering the phone? captain jones. i came in and started answering the phone, and started doing whatever appeared necessary for me to do. mr. hubert. what then happened next? captain jones. well, that went on for almost hours or somewhere near that and then at approximately o'clock is when chief stevenson came to me, and i don't know whether he came in from one of the offices. i was in the big lobby out front of the chief's office, but i came to the double doors where the secretaries have their desks, and he came to me and told me to go down to the basement of the city hall, go up the commerce street ramp and place two officers there to assist an armored truck that was en route to be used in the transfer of oswald. have those two officers there assist that truck in backing down into the basement as far as possible. "i don't know whether it will go all the way or not," also to take any available detectives on the third floor to the basement and place them where i thought they might be needed. mr. hubert. did you follow those instructions? captain jones. i did. mr. hubert. can you tell us in what way you did so? captain jones. all right, sir. i went to the automobile theft bureau, juvenile bureau, my own forgery bureau and--burglary and theft bureau, and got any detectives available to have them report to me at the jail office, and it seems to me, as i say, as if two or three detectives went with me. i couldn't tell you how many it was in the elevator going down with me, but--nor who they were, but i do know that when we got to the jail office i then asked them to remain in one place and i went out the door on the ramp, or on the driveway and up the ramp to commerce street, called patrolman jez and another officer, uniformed policeman, then. relayed chief stevenson's instructions not to leave there that the truck was en route. in coming back down the ramp i encountered captain talbert, who is in charge of the patrol division, and because chief stevenson had sent me down there to do that, i informed him of the instructions i had so that he wouldn't inadvertently move them, and then i returned to the officers in the basement--jail office, and just standing outside there. and from here on in--many times--i can tell you most of the things that happened. i am sure i may be a little unsure of the time, or sequence of things, for there in a matter of a few minutes quite a lot of things were done, but i returned into there and told the officers to remain there, that---- mr. hubert. when you say that you returned---- captain jones. to the jail office on the basement floor. now, who they were, i don't know. i am sure some of it is mentioned in the individual officers' reports that we have, of the ones that were there that i was talking to and told them as far as i knew the armored car was going, that was going to transfer him, that was backed up, it was backed up there and we would see the prisoner was safely escorted over to that. meantime, someone, i couldn't tell---- mr. hubert. just minute. before that, had you been told by chief stevenson when he instructed you to go down to the commerce street ramp and make arrangements for the handling of the armored truck---- captain jones. yes. mr. hubert. had you been told what route would be followed by the armored truck, or whatever vehicle? captain jones. i had not been told that. i had heard some discussion. we have a large map of downtown, city of dallas, that sits inside of the chief's office where the secretaries sit outside there, and one of the chiefs, i don't recall which one it was, was over there talking to someone else about a proposed route. i don't know what it was. i was not told. mr. hubert. about what time was that? captain jones. oh, just prior to my going to the basement. mr. hubert. in other words, just prior to o'clock? captain jones. yes, sir. mr. hubert. they were discussing what route to take? captain jones. discussing route, and i don't know what arrangements was made. mr. hubert. let's go back into the basement where you left off at the end of the last sequence of questions. what time, roughly, would it have been when you had completed the duty of informing the police who were at the top of the commerce street entrance, and after you had informed captain talbert, and after you had gotten these three men---- captain jones. to the jail office there? mr. hubert. what time was it, about? captain jones. well, it would take a minimum, i would say, of minutes, to come up that. it would vary a little, and possibly more, depending on how fast the elevators came up and so forth. mr. hubert. what did you do next then? captain jones. next thing i did--it was brought to my attention--we don't have a chart here so i will have---- mr. hubert. here; i am going to mark it, "dallas, texas, march , . exhibit , deposition of capt. o. a. jones." i am signing my name below it and i would like you to sign your name, here. captain jones. all right, sir. mr. hubert. and then will you use the exhibit as you see fit. let me say to you that if you do refer to the exhibit please indicate in words where it is rather than pointing to it because it will not make sense later on. captain jones. all right. mr. hubert. now, you were saying about the basement---- captain jones. when i got off the elevator, came out and left the elevator--all right, now, someone brought it to my attention that photographers and news media were in this part of the jail. mr. hubert. in the jail? captain jones. jail office, outside. mr. hubert. outside of the desks? captain jones. outside the booking area, outside of the desk part of the jail office, and newsmen all out in here [indicating]. mr. hubert. when you say "here," you are pointing to the jail area? captain jones. the corridor they have from the driveway from the basement jail office. mr. hubert. on the east side of the swinging doors? captain jones. on the east side of the swinging doors; yes, sir. mr. hubert. well, what did you do? captain jones. i did not know the instructions given to the other officers down there prior to that. nothing. so, immediately after seeing them--i saw chief batchelor and chief stevenson come out the swinging doors into the area, and batchelor, being the highest ranking officer present, i pointed these people out to him, and---- mr. hubert. that is to say, in the jail office? captain jones. in the jail office--were they supposed to be in there, and wouldn't it be better, if we could get those people out of the jail office, that it would be easier to watch the prisoner, and so, i don't know the exact words, i used, and they walked around and looked around, and then agreed that it would be. so, he and i, and at least one other officer, and i don't know who he was, but at least one more removed everyone out of the outer part of the jail office to just outside the swinging doors coming from the basement of the city hall going east. mr. hubert. in the direction---- captain jones. in the direction of the driveway, and after getting them out there, not knowing the specific instructions that might have been given i said, "chief batchelor, would it be possible to have all this media be placed north of a line from the east corner of the jail office--all right. to move all the news media north of a line formed from the corner of the jail office from the corridor to across the ramp leading down from main street, to have all reporters north of that line, and that east of a line running off from this point across the driveway going south down to the exit from the basement parking area." mr. hubert. all right, i am going to mark, as you have indicated on the map, by making a line starting--with the letter "a" on the corner formed by the intersection of the jail corridor and the basement ramp moving east to a point, "b", which i am marking---- captain jones. yes, sir. mr. hubert. which is the east side of the ramp, and to another point marked "c". captain jones. well, now, actually, that line would extend all the way up here at that time. i meant to keep them back on those two--and in order---- mr. hubert. am i correct in what your suggestion was that the news media should be kept north of the line marked a and b? captain jones. that's right. mr. hubert. and east of the line which runs "b to c," the point "c"? captain jones. i didn't spell it out in those details, but that is the general idea, yes, sir. mr. hubert. "b" being the top of the commerce street ramp? captain jones. for this reason, that we would have only two sides to watch. the rest of it would be more or less brick wall, and he agreed to that. the officers were stationed previously by other people along these lines, so, i went out there with some of these officers and i don't know how many, and we did get those people back. mr. hubert. you got them back? captain jones. we got them back fairly well at that time. mr. hubert. behind the lines? captain jones. behind these lines. in fact, there at one time it was completely clear. mr. hubert. that would have been how long before oswald came down? captain jones. there again, i couldn't say. it was a matter of a few minutes. mr. hubert. can you tell me how many people were in the area that i am marking with a pen, "area a"? captain jones. i cannot tell you. mr. hubert. which is to say, the area north of the line "a", which you recently drew? captain jones. mr. hubert, that would be truly a guess on my part along with knowledge obtained later and watching these tv films. unconsciously, i would have to use that, for i don't have any idea on it. mr. hubert. were they standing shoulder to shoulder across the ramp? captain jones. it wasn't when we first pushed them back there, it was possibly six or eight people, and possibly a few more than that including officers. i didn't stop to--told the officers, "get them back," "get them back." mr. hubert. now, i am talking about an area called "b", can you give me any comment as to how many people roughly were in there? captain jones. i couldn't guess. a few minutes later i can tell you there was quite a few people there, but---- mr. hubert. we'll get to there. suppose we get to that. now then, at the time oswald was brought down, can you tell me how many people, roughly, were in area "a" and area "b"? captain jones. no, sir; i find myself with figures there that--that i do not know whether they are right or not. mr. hubert. all right. captain jones. what i would want to say, that i did see several people, and i was up there personally, and i don't know exactly who they were, but i was attempting to push them back at that time. so, we can get to that any minute, but as far as giving you a figure or definite number or something, i couldn't do it with any degree of accuracy. mr. hubert. all right, sir. do you know of your own knowledge what procedures were being used for checking people in that whole downstairs or basement area, including the ramp and so forth? captain jones. i know only one instance of--somewhere on the way down there that morning, whether it was up on the third floor or whether--i believe it was off of the elevator, just coming off of the elevator i was asked for an identification. mr. hubert. you were in civilian clothes? captain jones. i was in civilian clothes, yes, sir. i was asked, and that is the only time. i did not give the instruction. these officers were placed there prior to that, on the outside lines, and i don't know of my own knowledge. mr. hubert. well, then, proceed with the chronological sequence. captain jones. the chronological sequence, after getting these people out of the jail office and out of the corridors and driveway to these two points of which we were speaking, then i was somewhere just south of this point marked "b" on the driveway when chief stevenson approached me and said, "there has been a change in plan. we are going to put two cars on the driveway and use them." now, sometime in between there, and i can't tell you the exact time i am aware of a blur of a car going out the wrong way. i didn't see who was in it, and i didn't take too much awareness of it. i don't know just when it was. mr. hubert. when you say, "going the wrong way----" captain jones. i mean it came out of the basement area and headed up toward main street which ordinarily is the down ramp and you go out the ramp going up commerce street. there was a car out there, and in light of the investigation i know the circumstances now, but at that time i couldn't tell you about that one which did go out. chief stevenson said--came to me just before or after the car pulled out and said--said there was a change in plans, "we are going to put two cars in the driveway and transfer him in a car." almost immediately some cars started up back in this area [indicating]. mr. hubert. when you say "this area," that is the basement? captain jones. all right, the parking area of the basement, east of the driveway, and i am very sure one car that i saw pull up and go up the commerce street ramp from a ways, and i think i am aware of a second car pulling up behind. now, the second car was having a little difficulty backing down into position to where it would--where it should go, so that when i stepped forward and became aware of quite a mass of people, i couldn't tell you how many in this area "b". mr. hubert. and you were standing in the west side of the area? captain jones. yes, sir; the west side of area b, but the east side of the ramp. i was somewhere in there, and i attempted to push the people back, and i'm afraid i may have delayed the driver by pushing these people back, but along about that time someone shouts, "here he comes." mr. hubert. would you just make a little circle as to where approximately you were? captain jones. i think--i think--i think i was somewhere right in this area here [indicating]. mr. hubert. just put a circle. captain jones. well, i don't know. that is as close as i can put it. mr. hubert. you have drawn a circle, and i'm just going to put here, as you said, that it was somewhere around in here, around in the circle that you have drawn and i am marking that "approximate position of capt. o. a. jones at the time that jones heard someone say 'here he comes,'" is that correct, sir? captain jones. yes, sir. mr. hubert. now, actually, there was an automobile, as you say, backing up towards east, right? captain jones. well---- mr. hubert. but when they begin---- captain jones. it would have been backing north attempting to back north. mr. hubert. backing north, but with the front of the car facing south? captain jones. now then; from here is something that was a mystery to me for weeks---- mr. hubert. you didn't answer the question. captain jones. that's true. in the basement area, onto the ramp, heading out towards commerce, and attempting to back toward north. mr. hubert. now, did you say there was something else? captain jones. the police vehicle--car is ahead of me a little bit. mr. hubert. it is what? captain jones. ahead of me, backing toward it, and i am probably in the way, and when they shout, "here he comes," and the line up ahead of me--up toward the commerce street ramp, and i know of some officers, chief stevenson and chief batchelor, uniformed men up at the ramp, but i'm not sure about captain talbert. i'm sure, i believe he is ahead of me. quite a few officers, however, someone yells, "here he comes," there is a big furor, so then as i turned and looked back into this area "b", there are some people in there which--hands out, looking them, completely. i am looking east. mr. hubert. you are looking away from the---- captain jones. from the approximate point. mr. hubert. but you are also looking away from the point which oswald exited? captain jones. that's right. in watching the people, i was aware, in fact, in trying to get them out of the way. mr. hubert. would it be correct to say that the televisions were to your left? captain jones. i think so. i mean, that is my impression, and i cannot--i couldn't swear. i can give you the impression to the best of my knowledge, but here is one thing that i know. i am in that area, i think the television is to my left. i turned to make sure the people stay out of way. some of the previous instructions--can i go back? mr. hubert. yes. captain jones. some of the previous instructions that i had given to this officer here [indicating]. mr. hubert. here? captain jones. i'm sorry, just outside of the swinging doors leading into the basement of the city hall and just after clearing the jail office of the reporters, just keep the people out of the area. i told both the officers and the newsmen there, "when the prisoner comes down, you will not be allowed in this area. you will not be allowed to step forward to take pictures, or converse with the prisoner." mr. hubert. you gave that instruction? captain jones. i gave this instruction to them. i can't say to this officer, or to that officer. mr. hubert. all right. captain jones. things had changed. first, i was under the impression that the armored car would back all the way down. i didn't know whether it could get all the way down, may do it at some intermediate point. if it comes all the way down there would be a line. that was the--that was where i wanted the officer here coming out of the jail office. the door of the vehicle that opens---- mr. hubert. i say, that was your idea? captain jones. it was my idea, if the transporting vehicle backs all the way to the jail door. mr. hubert. all right. captain jones. if it comes partially down here and has to stop, which would be somewhere around this area here [indicating], the--just past--just at the point where the ramp starts to rise there is a beam, i believe, or low point in the ceiling there, that if it cannot get to that point these officers in the line here can form an =l=-shaped line around the prisoner, between them and the two sides where the news media had been told to stay and form a buffer in between to walk up there. then the change--going to put two cars up there. there is no reason why that back car can't get all the way back to the jail office. the original plan would be that the line of officers would be from the jail door to the vehicle. then they say, "here he comes," and i am off up here, to the point that i indicated on the map. it is too late to get the people out of the way of the car and form the line. i am aware that oswald is already coming because of the furor, so, i was trying to keep everybody out of the way and keep the way clear and i heard a shot. mr. hubert. all right. captain jones. and i place that as to why it is my last awareness of--the back car is ahead of, towards commerce street. the prisoner is coming from back here [indicating]. the car is backing like this [indicating]. i am looking at---- mr. hubert. you were looking at the automobile? captain jones. at the automobile. they say, "here he comes." i turned and these people back this way---- mr. hubert. looking away from the direction? captain jones. into this basement parking area. i heard a shot, and i distinctly remember looking over my left shoulder and behind me to the scene of the scuffle. mr. hubert. what did you see? captain jones. just mass confusion of people. mr. hubert. all right; let me ask you this; had you at any time seen ruby in the basement? captain jones. no, sir. mr. hubert. at the time of the shooting, did you see him? captain jones. not at the moment of the shooting. i was looking out into the basement area, parking area. mr. hubert. after the shooting, did you see him? captain jones. i did; after he was in custody and on his feet and just prior to them taking him into the jail office. mr. hubert. did you recognize him then? captain jones. at that time, after having someone say it was jack ruby, then i did recognize him as jack ruby. mr. hubert. did you hear him say anything? captain jones. no, sir; in fact, i wasn't that close to him. mr. hubert. did you have anything more to do with ruby? did you see him after that? captain jones. can i continue on the chronological thing there? i don't believe i did see him---- mr. hubert. go ahead. captain jones. it will be just about that same thing that after i turned and looking back, and also someone running out to the street, out at the extreme edges of the crowd and all, and that is when i hollered, "block the exits." or "bar the exits," or "don't let anybody out." or--i couldn't tell you the words i used. i shouted over my shoulder and took a few running steps and shouting to the officers, for some of them was running down towards the scene that i yelled, "block the exits, don't let anybody out." the two or three officers stopped. i couldn't tell you who they are, and then i turned and went back down to the scene or near the scene of the shooting, somebody says, it was jack ruby. in fact, it was said more than once. i heard the words--and they got the man standing up. i can see his head and i do recognize in my mind that it is jack ruby, but--about to get him in the jail office, shouted to that officer that way, whether he heard me or not, i don't know, but this man here lieutenant swain [indicating] was having a lot of difficulty. he was standing between point "b" on the driveway and this circle, approximately. standing near the television cameras, and having difficulty keeping the television men from getting down in the driveway. so i stopped there and i assisted him in keeping those people back for a few minutes until we can get it cleared up. we get that more or less under control. the people are not trying to force their way in there, and i go into the jail office and see oswald lying on the floor with a bullet hole in the left side, upper rib cage, it appears to me. his shirt has been pulled up. whether, at that time ruby was still in the jail office or had started upstairs, he--it seems to me possibly he was getting on the elevator, but i can't say for sure. mr. hubert. did you speak to ruby at that time? captain jones. i did not speak to ruby. mr. hubert. did you see him? captain jones. there--if that was him getting on the elevator, or if he was in there. after that, no, sir. mr. hubert. now, did you have anything to do with the clearing of the basement area at an earlier time? captain jones. no, sir. mr. hubert. were you ever told as to what the original route would be from the police department to the county jail? captain jones. i was never told by some officer coming to me and saying, this is the route. as i said, i heard some of the higher ranking officers talking of a possible route, but i was on a long-distance phone call at a desk nearby. mr. hubert. so, you can say to me now that you really did not know the planned route? captain jones. i was not told, and i do not know for sure what route they were going to take. i was aware of talk and some routing being planned. mr. hubert. can you tell us when you first heard that ruby was supposed to have come down the main street ramp? captain jones. i don't remember; i don't understand that question, sir. mr. hubert. let me put it this way; you have heard since that ruby claims that he came down the main street ramp? captain jones. yes, sir. mr. hubert. do you remember when you first heard that? captain jones. when i first heard that it was probably as a result of me being in charge for the police department committee investigating the operational security about that transfer, and why it broke down, and that heading that committee, i am sure that was passed to me by some of the officers who had talked to him following his arrest. mr. hubert. in other words, later, on the date of the th, or could it have been later than that? captain jones. if i heard it prior to that, or heard rumors, the first official knowledge that i do have would have been even following thanksgiving day, for that is the time i was called back from the vacation and called from vacation to head that investigation, and it was subsequent to that that we had our investigation. mr. hubert. so that if you heard anything about ruby's version of how he got there, it would have been just passed on to you prior to going on your vacation? that is to say, you would have heard it from someone---- captain jones. i would have heard it--or put out on the radio or newspapers or some source like that. i could have read that. mr. hubert. when did you go on vacation? captain jones. i left here---- mr. hubert. that is dallas? captain jones. i left dallas about : on thanksgiving morning and got back in town at o'clock that night. drove to shreveport, spent or hours with my father and ate lunch and came back. they called for me by the time i got there. mr. hubert. and you were not on the special committee to investigate security until that time? captain jones. when i returned, went to chief stevenson's house that night. he told me what they had in mind. i reported for that the morning following thanksgiving, friday morning. mr. hubert. now, captain, is there anything else you want to state concerning the facts, in your deposition this morning? captain jones. i can think of no other at this time, mr. hubert. i only wish there was some definite facts i could give you, and wish i could have been more definite in my answers, but i can think of no other right now. we have covered the situation pretty thoroughly. mr. hubert. now, have you been interviewed by any member of the commission, other than myself? captain jones. no, sir; i'm sure i haven't. i mean i would remember that. mr. hubert. i mean, you have been interviewed by me prior to the commencement of this deposition, isn't that correct? captain jones. we went over the details briefly a while ago; yes, sir. mr. hubert. and that was this morning? captain jones. that was this morning; yes, sir. mr. hubert. now, can you tell me whether you observed any inconsistencies between the interview that you had with me this morning and your testimony in this deposition? captain jones. i am not aware of any, sir. mr. hubert. have you provided any material information in that interview with me this morning which has not been talked about in the record of this deposition today? captain jones. i don't know of any, sir. mr. hubert. i think that is all, sir. captain, if you have anything else to say---- captain jones. i will be happy--if there is anything that i can say that will shed some light on the truth, that's what i want, sir. mr. hubert. is there anything at all that you haven't said to me, or during the interview, or during any statements that you may have made to anybody which you would like to say now? captain jones. i can think of none--i got--i told you the facts as i know them. the book that the commission has, has a copy of--has the conclusions that were reached by our committee, and those are just opinions based on our investigation of it and certainly we do have opinion on it but i have tried to stay away from my opinion, and--i will answer any questions in the future that you or any member of your commission wants to know. mr. hubert. thank you very much. let me say that if you should think of anything that has been omitted please feel free to call upon me or any member of the commission staff to convey that information. once again i thank you personally and on behalf of the commission. captain jones. thank you. mr. hubert. just a moment. (discussion off the record.) mr. hubert. let me say that i am recommencing this deposition about a minute after it finished. you are still under the same oath, of course, that you were before. captain jones. yes, sir. mr. hubert. i think that you did prepare, or it was prepared under your supervision, a chart, or diagram that showed the basement area, and by the use of circles and identifying code showed the positions of individuals. captain jones. yes, sir; that was prepared under my direction by an officer and places people who were not available to our office in this city, where they were placed by the statements, or statements of people who were nearby and said they were there. that was to the best of our ability to determine where they were at the time. mr. hubert. as i recall it, that was quite a large chart, wasn't it? captain jones. the original that they made. mr. hubert. and it showed the positions of people like that by circles in which numbers were---- captain jones. were numbered. mr. hubert. and i think you used a color as well? captain jones. color to denote the occupation. mr. hubert. whether reserve officers---- captain jones. designated from---- mr. hubert. newspapermen. captain jones. and those numbers applied to one other, then they applied to the number of the page in the book of the ones they took affidavits from. mr. hubert. that is to say that these circles with the number in it designating the position of a particular individual, that same number was used to identify his report? captain jones. that's right. mr. hubert. in your security report? captain jones. yes, sir. mr. hubert. but note for the record: the report which captain jones is referring has been designated as commission report no. -a. this is a copy of that, isn't it? captain jones. yes, sir. that is it. mr. hubert. all right. so, that the chart really is an estimation based upon the persons involved, what they said themselves, and also as to what other people said as to where they were. captain jones. yes, sir; we were limited as to the miles and distances of contacting some of the witnesses. mr. hubert. once again i thank you for appearing. testimony of lt. jack revill the testimony of lt. jack revill was taken at : a.m., on march , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. leon d. hubert, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. hubert. this is the deposition of lt. jack revill [spelling] r-e-v-i-l-l-e. lieutenant revill. no. no "e." mr. hubert. no "e"? but two "l's." lieutenant revill. yes. mr. hubert. my name is leon hubert. i am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel on the president's commission. under the provisions of executive order no. , dated november , , joint resolution of congress no. , in the rules and procedures adopted by the commission in conformance with the executive order and joint resolution, i have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you. i state to you now that the general nature of the commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of president kennedy and the subsequent violent death of lee harvey oswald. in particular as to you, lieutenant revill, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of oswald and any other facts you may know about the general inquiry. now, lieutenant revill, you have appeared here today by virtue of a general request made to chief curry by j. lee rankin, who is the general counsel of the commission. and under the rules of the commission you are entitled to a -day written notice prior to the taking of the deposition, but the rules also provide that a witness may waive that -day written notice. do you wish to do so? do you wish to waive the -day---- lieutenant revill. i will waive it, yes. mr. hubert. all right. now, let's swear you. if you will stand and raise your right hand. do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? lieutenant revill. i do. mr. hubert. state your name, please. lieutenant revill. my name is jack revill. mr. hubert. your age? lieutenant revill. my age is years of age. mr. hubert. your residence? lieutenant revill. my residence is dallas, tex., meadowick lane. mr. hubert. what is your occupation, sir? lieutenant revill. i'm employed by the dallas police department, lieutenant of the police. mr. hubert. how long have you been so employed? lieutenant revill. i have been employed by this police department for a period of years. mr. hubert. how did you start? lieutenant revill. i was employed and assigned a patrolman. from there i was promoted to my present rank of lieutenant. mr. hubert. when did you receive your present rank? lieutenant revill. june , . mr. hubert. now, what are your specific functions or duties or assignments within the department? lieutenant revill. i am presently assigned as section supervisor of criminal intelligence, which is a part of the special service bureau. mr. hubert. how long have you been in that section? lieutenant revill. since february of . mr. hubert. who is your immediate superior there? lieutenant revill. my immediate supervisor is capt. w. p. gannaway. mr. hubert. and then over him? lieutenant revill. chief curry. mr. hubert. in other words, you don't work for any other captain or supervisor? lieutenant revill. no. mr. hubert. you report to the chief himself, i mean, you don't go through stevenson or batchelor? lieutenant revill. just directly to the chief. mr. hubert. now, i would like you to state briefly, so that we get the full story, just what function you have had with respect to the investigation of the shooting of oswald. first let me ask you: were you present when oswald was shot? lieutenant revill. no, sir; i was not. mr. hubert. did you have anything to do with the transfer of oswald? lieutenant revill. no, sir. mr. hubert. were you on duty that day? lieutenant revill. no, sir; later i was, but not the morning of the shooting. mr. hubert. not at the time of the shooting? lieutenant revill. no. mr. hubert. now, then, go ahead and tell us about just what you did with reference to the investigation of this. lieutenant revill. after jack ruby shot lee harvey oswald i was assigned to an investigative committee to determine how and why jack ruby gained access to the basement of the city hall. this committee was comprised of myself, lt. f. i. cornwall, lt. p. g. mccaghren, lt. c. c. wallace, capt. o. a. jones and inspector sawyer, and i do not recall his initials, but our function was to interview the people present in the basement on the morning of the shooting, and any other leads that might be developed from these interviews. we were to follow up on these. mr. hubert. when did the official committee you have just mentioned come into existence and who put it in existence and who gave you your orders? lieutenant revill. this committee was formed--created at the orders of chief j. e. curry. the exact date i do not recall. it was in december. mr. hubert. all right. go ahead. lieutenant revill. as previously stated, our function was to interview these people. mr. hubert. had any other interviews of these people been made prior to the commencement of the functions of your committee? lieutenant revill. interviews, as such, no. most of the officers had submitted written reports as to their specific duties on the morning of november , . mr. hubert. do you know when that was done? lieutenant revill. i presume that it was done on the date of the shooting and immediately thereafter. mr. hubert. isn't it a fact, as i recall it, that the individual reports made by every officer who was in the basement more or less followed a form in the sense that they were submitted a list of questions, at least they had to answer that much, and they could, perhaps, go further if they wanted to? lieutenant revill. i believe the form letter you make reference to was given to the police reserve officers. these are the people that i devoted my efforts toward, the police reserve, but lieutenant cornwall and i, our duty was to interview these reserve policemen. lieutenant mccaghren, o. a. jones and wallace interviewed the sworn officers. mr. hubert. by the way, where is cornwall now? lieutenant revill. he is in louisville, ky., at the southern police institute. he left a week ago. mr. hubert. and i understand that he is going to be there---- lieutenant revill. months. mr. hubert. months? lieutenant revill. now, lieutenant cornwall and i were together throughout the existence of this committee. mr. hubert. are you familiar with the document entitled, "investigation of the operation and security involved on the transfer of lee harvey oswald, on november , ," which i now show you? lieutenant revill. yes, sir; i am. mr. hubert. let the record show that i am showing lieutenant revill, a document which has been identified as commission's report -a. are you familiar with the letter of transmittal of this report dated december th, , which is at the first part of the report, and runs for pages, signed by sawyer, westbrook, and jones? lieutenant revill. yes, sir; i am. mr. hubert. i believe that this report, in its very last paragraph, says that you have read it and concur? lieutenant revill. yes, sir. mr. hubert. some of the reports in there are actually signed by you? lieutenant revill. yes, sir; that's correct. mr. hubert. do you know an officer, a reserve officer by the name of mayo? lieutenant revill. mayo? mr. hubert. lamar mayo. i think his civilian employment is in--he is an accountant or chief of credit department of sears, roebuck here. lieutenant revill. this is r. l. mayo? mr. hubert. it could be r. l. mayo. lieutenant revill. i looked here and i found a copy of an interview of a reserve officer, sgt. r. l. mayo, signed by myself and lieutenant cornwall. mr. hubert. lamar w.? lieutenant revill. we do have an l. w. mayo. it is possible that we made an error on this up here, the girl---- mr. hubert. it is l. w. mayo, i think. lieutenant revill. it will be the same. i was looking at his report, and what we had put in our report about his position or duty assignment and what happened here, they---- mr. hubert. when you say "here," you are talking about---- lieutenant revill. in the report. it is page . mr. hubert. page of commission's document -a. lieutenant revill. what happened, the secretary in typing the report put the wrong initial. she placed r. l. mayo, and it should read l. w. mayo. mr. hubert. i noticed that you are talking about the part of the letter which starts off "re: interview of reserve officer, sgt. r. l. mayo, ," that being a heading on the letter of december , , but the next document also numbered page , in commission's document -a, shows that the initial report dated november , addressed to chief curry is signed, "l. w. mayo," and it is your thought--that it is an error in the first document which is entitled, "interview of reserve officer, sgt. r. l. mayo," and it should have been, "l. w. mayo.?" lieutenant revill. yes. mr. hubert. it is your opinion that that is the same person? lieutenant revill. yes, sir; this is my opinion. mr. hubert. i understand that sergeant mayo, when he was interviewed by you stated that he had been approached by some individual who was either a minister or posing to be a minister in any case, who was trying to get into the jail through the commerce street entrance on november , prior to the shooting, stating that he wanted to see oswald, and that you had told him, well, that wasn't pertinent to your inquiry, and all i want to do is ask you what--if it is true, and just what comment do you have to make on it? lieutenant revill. i don't recall making that, because it would have been pertinent to my inquiry, because in the reports i make reference to an individual who was on the street trying to get in who was wearing a whitehouse--a streamer with the words, "whitehouse press." this, to me, was pertinent, and this minister--of course, the minister wanted to see oswald prior to the shooting. mr. hubert. yes. in other words, your statement is that you do not recollect that mayo made such a statement to you? lieutenant revill. no, sir; he might have made such a statement, but---- mr. hubert. if he did, your thought would be you would have put it in? lieutenant revill. yes, sir; because to me it would have been pertinent. anything. mr. hubert. do you recall his statement to you, mayo to you, that after the shooting when mayo was stationed in the main street ramp that there was a man who came to mayo, i think, identified himself as ruby's roommate, and was trying to get in to see ruby, that being after the shooting. do you recall that mayo reported that during the course of the interview? lieutenant revill. it seems like i do recall mayo saying something like that, and i believe he referred this man to lieutenant gilmore of the special service bureau. i believe he told me that, but i don't see it here and i don't know why we omitted that, but i think we--i do recall him making such a statement. george senator, i believe he would have been the individual. mr. hubert. yes. he described him as having a slight limp, too, i think he said. lieutenant revill. this, i don't know. mr. hubert. but, you do not recall right now why it was not made a part of the interview? lieutenant revill. just an oversight on my part. it should have been listed here. mr. hubert. there is one other thing that mayo states that he told you, which apparently is not in the report, that is about a man and a woman who had been hanging around the main street entrance apparently after the shooting. apparently they were tourists from springfield, ill., and they wanted to take some pictures and stated that to you that---- lieutenant revill. no, sir; he did not state this to me. mr. hubert. as to that episode, then, you do not recall that that was stated to you? lieutenant revill. i would say that he did not relate this to me. mr. hubert. well, as i see the three episodes then, as to the first one regarding the minister, your thought is that he may have stated to you, but you do not remember? lieutenant revill. i don't recall. mr. hubert. nor do you recall why he omitted it from your report? lieutenant revill. this might have happened. it was subsequent to this i found a preacher who wanted to talk to oswald, and he went to chief batchelor's office, and---- mr. hubert. when subsequent to what? lieutenant revill. subsequent to the shooting. mr. hubert. oh, i see. lieutenant revill. no, prior to the shooting, and subsequently--he was probably talking to--let's see, he arrived at city hall at : . this preacher's name is ray rushing. he is an evangelist, radio evangelist. mr. hubert. and that was reported and the man was interviewed? lieutenant revill. it was not reported because i myself found this man. mr. hubert. but---- lieutenant revill. there is no report on it, because it is in--it had nothing to do with the shooting. he had gone to sheriff decker's office, and decker referred him to the city thinking that oswald had not been transferred, so, he came to the city hall and went to the third floor, and--by the way, he rode up on the elevator with jack ruby, now---- mr. hubert. this rushing? lieutenant revill. yes. mr. hubert. rode to the third floor---- lieutenant revill. now, he says this. mr. hubert. oh, he says this. lieutenant revill. yes, for the past weeks i have been assigned to the district attorney's office, the prosecution of ruby, running down leads and interviewing witnesses and this preacher was one of the people that we located, and he related this story to me, that he rode up on the elevator with jack ruby on the morning of november . mr. wade did not use this man. he didn't need the testimony, because he had placed ruby there the morning of the shooting. mr. hubert. in other words, rushing says that he rode up with ruby on the morning of the th, prior to the shooting? lieutenant revill. yes, sir. mr. hubert. what was his name? lieutenant revill. ray rushing. mr. hubert. you don't know how we could reach him? lieutenant revill. no; he lives in richardson, tex.--correction, please--plano, tex. mr. hubert. how do you spell that? lieutenant revill. p-l-a-n-o, north of richardson, and at this time he does not have a phone. mr. hubert. did you make a report on the interview with him? lieutenant revill. no, sir; i did not. this was an interview conducted by the--at the district attorney's office in the presence of assistant district attorney alexander. mr. hubert. did rushing say what time that was? lieutenant revill. : . he was sure of the time, because he had let his wife and family out at the first baptist church, and traveled directly to the city hall. mr. hubert. was he sure it was sunday the th? lieutenant revill. yes, sir; he had gone there to speak to oswald. mr. hubert. how did he recognize ruby? did he say? lieutenant revill. he said he recognized him from the newspaper article that appeared that day, and later days. mr. hubert. did he say whether he had any conversation with him? lieutenant revill. he talked about the weather. i asked him. mr. hubert. did he say whether he was--whether he saw ruby there afterwards? lieutenant revill. he said he turned to the right and--went up to the third floor and after arriving on the third floor, he turned to the right and went to the administrative office and talked to chief assistant batchelor. mr. hubert. but, anyhow, after you interviewed this man rushing, you turned over the information concerning your interview to assistant district attorney alexander? lieutenant revill. what i did is, i interviewed mr. rushing one night and asked him if he could come to the district attorney's office and relate this to mr. wade. possibility that the district attorney might use him as a witness, and alexander was of the opinion that the man might be mistaken. that he saw this as a means of getting publicity. of course, i disagree with that thinking. i think that the man is truthful in that he is reporting what he thinks he saw. mr. hubert. when you interviewed him did he give you what you considered a fairly accurate description of ruby? lieutenant revill. yes. of course, so many photographs had appeared in the newspapers and it would be easy for someone to---- mr. hubert. where did you interview him? lieutenant revill. at the district attorney's office. mr. hubert. did he give you a specific address in plano? lieutenant revill. it is out in the country. it is a box number. i can't---- mr. hubert. what is he? a baptist minister? lieutenant revill. he is, yes; i guess he would be. he attends the first baptist church. he is one of these evangelist--that his calling is to dry up the liquor industry, throughout the nation, so they tell me. mr. hubert. did he state to you what his purpose was in seeing oswald? lieutenant revill. yes, he felt that oswald needed spiritual guidance at that time. he was in trouble and he felt like he could possibly help him. mr. hubert. did he say whether he got to see oswald? lieutenant revill. he did not get to see him. mr. hubert. did he say how he got into this building? lieutenant revill. he walked into the building. mr. hubert. did he have any difficulty getting in? lieutenant revill. not at that time, no. mr. hubert. did he state whether he was stopped and asked for identification by anyone? lieutenant revill. no, sir; i don't believe he was. at that time, of course, i don't know for sure--i don't know that they were--had the building secured. mr. hubert. now, as to the second thing that mayo told you. to wit, about ruby's roommate who may or may not be senator, you do recall that he said that, but you don't know why it was left out of the---- lieutenant revill. it was an oversight. it seems as though i do recall him telling me something about that, and that he referred this man to lieutenant gilmore, who was assigned to the special service section. mr. hubert. the third thing, that man and wife from springfield, ill., you have no recollection of that? lieutenant revill. no, sir; no recollection whatsoever. mr. hubert. do you recall interviewing pat dean? lieutenant revill. sergeant dean? no, sir; i did not interview sergeant dean. mr. hubert. or archer? lieutenant revill. no, sir; these interviews were conducted by lieutenant mccaghren and wallace. now, dean, being a uniformed officer, he might have been interviewed by captain westbrook. mr. hubert. your function was to find out how ruby got into the---- lieutenant revill. basement. this basement; yes, sir. mr. hubert. when did you first learn of ruby's version that he came in the main street entrance? lieutenant revill. when i first learned it? i read it in the newspaper. mr. hubert. you didn't know it on the th? lieutenant revill. no, sir. mr. hubert. of course, actually, you hadn't been assigned the job---- lieutenant revill. no, sir; no, sir. what happened, my people were--the people, the detectives assigned to my unit and myself were assigned to the trade mart, where mr. kennedy was to speak. upon hearing of the shooting, three of us, or four of us, went to the texas school book depository and started a systematical search and there were many, many officers present at that time. i made a report to chief lumpkin naming all of the officers that i could recall being there. this was on a friday. the following saturday, the next day, we were to locate witnesses. people who were employed at the school book depository, get them and bring them to captain fritz' office. this took all day. saturday night we terminated and went home approximately o'clock. the next morning none of us were assigned to duty. now, by that i mean the intelligence unit. i was at home and i saw the shooting on television and from there i got a phone call to report to mayor cabell's home, because there had been a threat on his life. i went to washington with mr. cabell that night and got back the next day. mr. hubert. you haven't, then, spoken to dean at all about how ruby got into the basement or how ruby, says he got into the basement? lieutenant revill. i am sure i have discussed it with him, but as far as a formal interview; no. mr. hubert. but, in any case, your first knowledge didn't come from any particular individual, but from the newspaper? lieutenant revill. newspaper. mr. hubert. in your discussion with dean, do you recall whether he stated to you how he found out about ruby's alleged entry through the main street ramp? lieutenant revill. no, sir; i do not. mr. hubert. do you know the reserve officer by the name of holly? lieutenant revill. holly? yes, sir; i talked to mr. holly. mr. hubert. do you recall the nature of the conversation? lieutenant revill. yes, sir; i do. mr. hubert. would you tell us about it, please? lieutenant revill. if i may find the report. mr. hubert. there is an index there. lieutenant revill. yes; and they are filed alphabetically. ordinarily i can find it probably easier this way. holly, yes, holly was interviewed and he stated that he had been assigned to a traffic corner and after the shooting occurred he was reassigned to parkland hospital, and that while there some unknown police reservist told him that he had observed, or admitted ruby into the basement of the city hall, and that ruby had presented press credentials. mr. hubert. well---- lieutenant revill. well, what we did, we have photographs of all of the police reserve, and holly could not identify anyone as being this officer, or reserve officer. mr. hubert. where did this take place, that is to say, where was holly shown these pictures? lieutenant revill. in the city hall, in the special services bureau. mr. hubert. did you say that when holly was interviewed he was interviewed by captain solomon? lieutenant revill. well, holly was interviewed by captain solomon, and both lieutenant cornwall and i. mr. hubert. all at once? lieutenant revill. no; see what happened, holly came to us with his story. well, we jumped on it because there might be something to it, so i called captain solomon, who has access to all of the records and photographs of the reserve officers, and he brought them to the special services bureau in the city hall. holly was unable to identify this officer. we talked to captain arnett, who is a reserve captain, and both solomon and arnett were of the opinion that holly might be fabricating this thing. mr. hubert. now; what did holly say---- lieutenant revill. holly---- mr. hubert. that this reserve officer told him? lieutenant revill. that he had seen ruby in the basement of the city hall, and that ruby had presented press credentials to someone in the basement of the city hall. we were never able to locate this reserve officer. mr. hubert. did holly tell you that a reserve officer, possibly the same one, possibly another, had told him that he had seen ruby coming down the ramp, main street ramp, and just about a minute before the shooting? lieutenant revill. no, sir; holly did not say that to me. i found a reserve officer who was present in the basement of the city hall who saw some individual coming down the ramp, the main street ramp. he could not identify this person as being ruby. as you said, approximately a minute or minute and a half after the shooting--i mean, prior to the shooting. have you got a---- mr. hubert. i don't want to suggest anything to you, but to assist you, tell me if you don't recognize the name, officer newman? lieutenant revill. i believe that it is newman. i can show you. you--he was assigned---- mr. hubert. did you interview newman? lieutenant revill. yes; i did. mr. hubert. newman said that he had not recognized jack ruby? lieutenant revill. yes; he did not recognize the man coming down the ramp, and the distance involved, i can readily see why he could not identify him. mr. hubert. did newman mention to you in your interview that as a matter of fact, there were two people he saw in the basement area. one, a man coming down the ramp about a minute before the shooting, and another person who jumped the rail down there from the parking area into the ramp on the main street side, but that he could not identify either? lieutenant revill. yes. mr. hubert. and that, as to the man jumping the rail he didn't know whether it was before the shooting or after. lieutenant revill. the man that he is making reference to jumping over the rail was an electrician, and this was prior to the shooting. mr. hubert. was this chabot? [spelling] c-h-a-b-o-t? lieutenant revill. tommy chabot, i believe he is a mechanic. mr. hubert. did he, newman, identify him as such? lieutenant revill. newman did not identify him as such, nor did he identify the man running down the ramp. mr. hubert. well, i can understand then that when he saw the man running down the ramp he did not know who that was, but did he tell you later he identified that man as being ruby by comparing him to the pictures? lieutenant revill. no, sir; he did not. mr. hubert. now, when holly was asked to pick out the reserve officer who had told him what you said he did in the hospital, was captain solomon present? lieutenant revill. yes; solomon was present and had brought these photographs to special services bureau, and he was unable to identify any of these people. mr. hubert. he didn't pick out any picture at all? lieutenant revill. no, sir. mr. hubert. you know, of your own knowledge, whether or not solomon had another interview with this man? lieutenant revill. no, sir; i do not. mr. hubert. have you ever heard that holly actually did pick out a picture in an interview with solomon and state that he thought that was the reserve officer who had spoken to him. now, apparently that didn't happen when you were present? lieutenant revill. no, sir; i don't recall this happening in my presence. i do recall, i believe, holly thinking that a specific officer was the individual that--we interviewed this officer and he was not the one, and i couldn't tell you his name, because we talked to so many of them. mr. hubert. then holly did say that he thought that this might be the individual, and he picked out then a particular picture? lieutenant revill. as i recall, he picked out a picture, and as it turned out, the man that he picked out wasn't even present at the basement of the city hall. he had been fishing, was on a fishing trip, and i talked to this reserve officer, i couldn't tell you his name. there were two of them that came from arlington directly to the hospital. mr. hubert. but, in any case, it wasn't newman? lieutenant revill. no, sir; he was not. mr. hubert. newman is a reserve officer? lieutenant revill. yes, sir. mr. hubert. so, the picture holly picked out as being possibly the man who told him about seeing someone coming through with a pass or something like that sort was not newman? lieutenant revill. right. mr. hubert. that reserve officer was interviewed? lieutenant revill. yes, sir; he was interviewed and the report is in here, if i could find it. mr. hubert. and your recollection of the interview was that he wasn't even in the place at all? lieutenant revill. he had been fishing. mr. hubert. you have no recollection at all of holly picking out newman's picture? lieutenant revill. no, sir; he did not pick out newman's picture. mr. hubert. that is to say, in your---- lieutenant revill. in my presence. mr. hubert. nor, have you heard that he picked out newman's picture when you were not there? lieutenant revill. no, sir; i have not heard this. mr. hubert. i think the report indicates that you interviewed ruby? lieutenant revill. yes, sir; on two occasions. mr. hubert. what was the first one? lieutenant revill. the first occasion, the date would have been on the sunday following the shooting. mr. hubert. when? one week later? lieutenant revill. one week later, yes, sir. mr. hubert. i can show you a calendar of---- lieutenant revill. i can give you the date. mr. hubert. can you? lieutenant revill. yes, sir. mr. hubert. would you do so? lieutenant revill. would have been on december the st in the county jail. present at that interview was lieutenant cornwall, a jailer, whose name i do not recall. this man was present at both interviews, at mr. decker's request. mr. hubert. the jailer was? lieutenant revill. the jailer; yes, sir. and this proposed interview took place just outside the cell where ruby was confined in, i believe it would be the chief jailer's office. mr. hubert. will you tell us about what happened? lieutenant revill. yes, sir; lieutenant cornwall and i, after interviewing all these people, trying to determine how ruby got into the basement, decided that the best thing was to talk to ruby himself, so, we finally got clearance to go talk to him and we did, and---- mr. hubert. now, by that time you had already heard from the press that he had said that he had come through the main street ramp? lieutenant revill. something to the effect that, "you may not believe me, but i walked down the ramp." anyway at the interview, ruby was there with cornwall and i, and this unknown jailer, and he refused to disclose how he gained access into the basement stating that this is a part of his defense, so, we then had sheriff decker call tom howard, who was representing ruby at that time as a legal counsel. mr. howard came to the jail and was present throughout the interview. ruby was very precise as to his activities on friday, the date of the shooting of president kennedy. he refused to discuss with us any of his activities on saturday, november or november , the day of the shooting. mr. hubert. did he give you any reason? lieutenant revill. this was part of his defense, so he stated. the interview approximately took minutes. it was a lot of---- mr. hubert. did you ask him specifically whether the story in the press, that he had come through the main street entrance, was correct or not correct? lieutenant revill. yes, sir; i asked him this, and he refused to discuss it. he said that he did not want to get anyone in trouble. mr. hubert. did you pursue that? lieutenant revill. yes; i did. i was assigned to this committee to find out what happened and i really wasn't concerned who we got in trouble, because if someone was wrong, then they suffer the consequences and i asked him about officers by name who were present in the basement, if they had seen him or talked to him, and he wouldn't discuss it. knowing jack ruby, jack ruby is the type of individual that can't be anywhere for a period of time without talking to someone. mr. hubert. did you mention to him specifically roy vaughn's name? lieutenant revill. yes, sir; the officer---- mr. hubert. at the main street exit? lieutenant revill. yes, sir; i did. mr. hubert. he made no comment? lieutenant revill. no, sir; he wouldn't discuss this. i asked him about detective harrison. the films showed that ruby was standing at harrison's shoulder. mr. hubert. what did he say about that? lieutenant revill. he became very upset. mr. hubert. did--describe how he was upset? lieutenant revill. this is when he said--well, he got real angry at me and cussed me and told me---- mr. hubert. ruby did? lieutenant revill. oh, yes; told me i was a hatchet man and trying to get the man's job. mr. hubert. when he said you were trying to get the man's job, that is harrison's job? lieutenant revill. he meant harrison's job, so, what i did, was later got it approved to put harrison on the polygraph to determine if he had seen ruby prior to the shooting and if he had talked to ruby. well, the polygraph examination showed that harrison had no knowledge of ruby being present. mr. hubert. did you interview harrison, too? lieutenant revill. yes; i did. showed him the film. mr. hubert. did you sort of put him through any cross examination? lieutenant revill. yes, sir. mr. hubert. what is your opinion of his veracity? do you think he is telling the truth? lieutenant revill. if you believe a polygraph examination; he is. mr. hubert. i was interested in your impression. lieutenant revill. yes, sir; and if this is being recorded, then i'd rather not state an opinion as to his truth and veracity. mr. hubert. i understand. did you mention on that first occasion any other names to ruby? i think you have mentioned already, vaughn and---- lieutenant revill. i mentioned the officers who were in the positions to have seen ruby. mr. hubert. did you mention to him the name of daniels, ex-police officer? lieutenant revill. i may have. i might have asked him if he knew daniels. mr. hubert. but, in any case, that is all of your questions. he refused to discuss and at this time he--his lawyer wasn't present? lieutenant revill. on the second interview, which would have occurred on december the---- mr. hubert. before you leave that, i want to get a little bit more information concerning this, i think you said, "fit of anger," when he cursed you and told you you were a hatchet man. lieutenant revill. what upset him---- mr. hubert. did he say any other things? lieutenant revill. what upset him was that i was involved in this thing. when i walked in he said something to the effect, "well, the intelligence people are involved in it now. they think i am a communist." i don't know what gave him that idea, but i have known jack ruby since . i have never been a friend with him. i knew him enough to talk to him. lieutenant cornwall took the position of being his friend, and i was the foe, and that is the way we conducted our interview. we were unable to get any information from him. mr. hubert. but the mention of harrison, apparently is the thing that set---- lieutenant revill. set him off, and i have never been satisfied, personally, with harrison's statement. of course, this is my personal opinion. mr. hubert. i think that kind of answers the other question. lieutenant revill. yes; it does. they were reluctant--i say, "they," the other members of the committee were reluctant to have him submitted to a polygraph examination, but i thought that this was one way of determining if he was truthful or not. mr. hubert. it was as a result of your insistence that he was put under one? lieutenant revill. yes, sir. mr. hubert. all right, perhaps we can go to the second interview. on what date was that? lieutenant revill. this would have occurred on the d of december. mr. hubert. tuesday? lieutenant revill. on a tuesday, yes, sir. the afternoon of december . what we had been attempting to do was to put jack ruby on a polygraph machine, and his lawyer, tom howard, had been approached during the first interview as to doing this. he stated that there were other lawyers coming into the case and that he would have to have their permission before agreeing to let jack take this examination. on monday we communicated with tom by telephone and he kept hedging with us, and telling us he had not heard from the other lawyers. by "tom," i mean tom howard, the lawyer. on tuesday, we discussed it again with him and he stated that he was still trying to work this thing out. so, cornwall and i again decided--that we would go directly to jack ruby. he was the person involved, and we would give him the opportunity to submit to the examination. if he wanted to, fine. if he doesn't want to then it's also fine. so, we went to jack on the d--on the d of december and gave him the opportunity to take the polygraph. mr. hubert. that is to say, you asked him? lieutenant revill. asked him, yes, sir. mr. hubert. was his lawyer present then? lieutenant revill. not in the beginning. we later called tom howard to the interview so that he could be present, and they refused to have jack submitted. mr. hubert. at first when you asked jack about going on the polygraph machine prior to tom howard's being present, what did he say? lieutenant revill. he said--during the second interview he said that his lawyer would have to---- mr. hubert. all right, then his lawyer came and---- lieutenant revill. they declined. mr. hubert. did you talk about the basement? lieutenant revill. tried to. mr. hubert. what was the result of that? lieutenant revill. and again, this was part of their defense, and---- mr. hubert. did he show any anger at you then? lieutenant revill. yes; i think it was a carryover from the first interview, but this was a strategy that we used. let him be angry with me, thinking maybe that he might tell us something, but he never did. mr. hubert. did you mention harrison's name on the second interview? lieutenant revill. i possibly did, but at this time he was more composed, and there was no--i don't recall any outbursts. mr. hubert. i gather that the second interview was not fruitful, in that nothing---- lieutenant revill. no, sir. mr. hubert. no information was gathered? lieutenant revill. neither interview was fruitful, other than from his outburst. it led me to believe that possibly he had talked to some officer, or had been seen by some officer prior to the shooting, but i was never able to confirm this. mr. hubert. at the time you saw ruby, i take it you had not interviewed this man, ray rushing? lieutenant revill. no, sir. mr. hubert. and didn't know anything about it? lieutenant revill. no, sir. mr. hubert. by the way, how did you find out about it? lieutenant revill. he called me. mr. hubert. ray rushing called you? lieutenant revill. yes; i had assisted him, oh, approximately a year ago on a problem he was having with one of his preachers. he has got several preachers in his employment, and it was--involved a theft, and i was able to assist him, and he called me. mr. hubert. what date, about? lieutenant revill. when he called me? mr. hubert. yes. lieutenant revill. it was during the trial. during the picking of the jurors. the specific date, i do not recall. mr. hubert. anyhow, he came in and you interviewed him and made a verbal report to alexander. lieutenant revill. oh, alexander was present at the interview. mr. hubert. do you know whether the result of that interview was passed to the fbi or to any government agencies? lieutenant revill. no, sir; it was not. mr. hubert. nor is there a written report? lieutenant revill. no, sir; no written report. rushing was reluctant to take the stand. mr. hubert. did he say why? lieutenant revill. yes, he did. because of his fight with the liquor industry they would use this to fight him with. any publicity they might get of a derogatory nature would hurt him. we tried to emphasize the point that this would not be derogatory publicity. mr. hubert. did you point out to him that the position was somewhat inconsistent with the fact that he was a volunteer? lieutenant revill. yes. mr. hubert. what did he say? lieutenant revill. he decided he would testify if his testimony was needed. mr. hubert. what was his statement as to his original motivation for reporting this matter, that is to say, that he had seen ruby? lieutenant revill. i don't believe he ever said what motivated him to report this incident. mr. hubert. was he ever asked, that you know of, why he had delayed so long? lieutenant revill. yes, sir; i asked him that myself. mr. hubert. what did he say? lieutenant revill. well, he used the same story, that he did not want to become involved in this thing because of his fight or his crusade to dry up the liquor industry. mr. hubert. but, how did he then explain the fact that he had volunteered? lieutenant revill. he didn't explain it. now, this is an assumption on my part. i believe this is why mr. alexander was reluctant to use him, because mr. rushing is the type that there is a communist under each tree or each rock. mr. hubert. how old a man is rushing? lieutenant revill. late forty's, or early fifty's. mr. hubert. has he been in the dallas area long? lieutenant revill. no, sir; he had just recently moved to dallas from south dakota. he tells me he is a personal friend of senator mundt and the governor of south dakota and other influential people, which may or may not be true. mr. hubert. did you check to see whether he actually does have a church? lieutenant revill. yes, sir; he is on the radio throughout the nation. mr. hubert. now, you showed me prior to the commencement of this deposition, a large folder which you identified as--which is identified from the title page of the jacket cover "file no. int--" lieutenant revill. that's intelligence. mr. hubert. "intelligence -- through int--intelligence --subject jack ruby, dpd," which, i believe means dallas police department. " ," which is the jacket, i suppose, and folder of the special services bureau? lieutenant revill. well, yes. mr. hubert. and you also advise me that most of this information, or most of this folder, all except actually the first five pages are reports that have been built up after the shooting? lieutenant revill. yes, sir; this is correct. mr. hubert. you state to me also, i think, that this jacket has been made available to the secret service? lieutenant revill. yes, sir. mr. hubert. did they make copies of it? do you know? lieutenant revill. they made copies of much of this information. mr. hubert. you dealt with mr. sorrels? lieutenant revill. not directly with mr. sorrels himself. some of his agents. if i might use that, i might be able to explain it more fully. if it is necessary for the record---- mr. hubert. well, i was considering making it a part of the record, but i don't want, obviously, to take it away from you and i don't have authority at the present time to subpena it. lieutenant revill. i will make you copies of anything you want. mr. hubert. that is what i wanted to get at. if copies have been made already and turned over to the secret service, that would be unnecessary. lieutenant revill. for example, here was toll calls, telephone long-distance calls placed from the telephone at the carousel at - / commerce. the ruby residence, at south ewing, and also the vegas club at oak lawn, and also his sister's residence, eva grant's. mr. hubert. as of what date? lieutenant revill. these go back to september , , through--correction on that. some of them go back to may of . mr. hubert. well, let's deal with it this way, suppose i check to see how much of this the secret service, or the fbi has? lieutenant revill. the fbi has this, because i gave it to them personally. mr. hubert. the whole thing? lieutenant revill. of this particular---- mr. hubert. analyses of phone calls? lieutenant revill. the phone calls. mr. hubert. well, dealing with the whole report, suppose we do it this way, if we find that there is not, in possession of one of the federal agencies, the entire record, i may ask you at a later time to make it available for photostating, or if you could do it---- lieutenant revill. we can do it. anything we can do. mr. hubert. and then what we would do is that you could execute an affidavit instead of having to come and make a deposition to the effect that the attached report is true, is a true and correct copy of the originals. i think that is possibly the best way. lieutenant revill. any way that it is the easiest for you. mr. hubert. all right, do you have any other things that you would like to say? lieutenant revill. no, sir; i can't think of a thing. mr. hubert. all right, now---- lieutenant revill. wish there was something i could do to shed some light on it. mr. hubert. was it a part of your function to check out all rumors concerning connections between ruby and oswald? lieutenant revill. yes, sir; it was. mr. hubert. or between ruby and other groups from the left, right, and middle of the road, or whatnot? lieutenant revill. yes; this was our function. mr. hubert. did you, in fact, check out those that came to your attention? lieutenant revill. all that came to our attention, yes, sir. mr. hubert. is there a special report on that checkout? lieutenant revill. there are many reports. each lead that came in as a possible connection, investigation was conducted and a report submitted concerning that specific rumor. mr. hubert. in other words, every rumor was investigated and an individual report made on it, but they are not collected together anyplace? lieutenant revill. no, sir; no synopsis. mr. hubert. they are not part of this document -a? the investigation that you identified earlier? lieutenant revill. no, sir. mr. hubert. do you think there are copies of these various reports that could be made available to us? lieutenant revill. yes, sir; i can make them available to you. mr. hubert. i would appreciate it if you would, because if you have a lot of that checkout work that would be helpful. how much of a job would it be to photostat all of those things? did you turn them over to the fbi? lieutenant revill. no, sir. mr. hubert. or any other federal agent? lieutenant revill. anything that they wanted we gave to them. mr. hubert. i understand that, but i mean, this mass of documents, as i gather, are individual reports on individual rumors and so forth, you didn't turn those over? lieutenant revill. no, sir. mr. hubert. as a block? lieutenant revill. now, i say we didn't. let me qualify this, our reports that we make up, a copy is submitted to chief curry daily. now, what he does with these reports, i do not know. he may have turned these over to some federal agency. mr. hubert. i tell you what i would like for you to do, if you please, is to find out if they have been turned over to the fbi. i know a lot of rumors have. lieutenant revill. all right. mr. hubert. it may be that all that you ran out and reported on they have too, and therefore, it would be repetition to have them in there, but what we would be interested in is the copy of the reports and investigation of those reports or rumors that have not been turned over to the fbi. now, i wonder when you could let me know? lieutenant revill. let you know today. mr. hubert. all right. lieutenant revill. and if they have not, what we will do is pull from our file copies, and we will make copies available to you of each and every investigation that we conducted of a connection, or rumor, or connection between ruby and oswald. mr. hubert. in other words, make photostatic copies and turn them over to me. lieutenant revill. yes. mr. hubert. i would appreciate it and just write at the bottom of it, if you will, and sign it, that this is one of the investigations concerning a rumor, conducted by you, or whoever it was. lieutenant revill. do you want this as to each individual report, or collectively? mr. hubert. you would have to initial each individual report so that we would be sure. lieutenant revill. yes. mr. hubert. that those are the reports that you referred to in this deposition. lieutenant revill. yes, sir. mr. hubert. that would be very helpful to me. then you can turn that over to me and we will make it a part of this deposition. in other words, you would certify that these reports are the ones that you were talking about during this deposition, and that to the best of your knowledge, they are correct. in effect, it will be as though you were here or under oath telling us that that is correct and that will close the record up. the only other way would be to have you come here and identify each one and i am trying to avoid that---- lieutenant revill. let me ask you a question. these reports that we make reference to were submitted by officers under my supervision. mr. hubert. yes; well, i see your point. lieutenant revill. will each one of these officers need to initial them, or can i do this? mr. hubert. well, we'll have the understanding that this was done under your supervision, that you can't vouch for the absolute accuracy of every one of them, but that it is a report made in the course of police department business and that you and the police department rely upon those reports. lieutenant revill. yes, sir. mr. hubert. i think that will be fine. have you been interviewed by any member of the commission's staff by--prior to the deposition of this morning, and other than the interview that you and i had just preceding this interview this morning? lieutenant revill. no, sir; i have not. mr. hubert. now, as to the interview that you and i had this morning before this deposition began right here in this room have we, in this deposition, covered all that we talked about in that interview? lieutenant revill. yes, sir. mr. hubert. is there any material information that we talked about in the interview that has not been brought out in the deposition? lieutenant revill. i do not know of any. mr. hubert. that's it. testimony of capt. james maurice solomon the testimony of capt. james maurice solomon was taken at p.m., on march , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. leon d. hubert, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. hubert. this is the deposition of capt. j. m. solomon of the dallas police department. captain solomon, my name is leon hubert. i am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the president's commission. under the provision of executive order no. , dated november , , and the joint resolution of congress no. , and the rules of procedure adopted by the commission, in conformance with that executive order and joint resolution, i have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, captain solomon. i state to you that the general nature of the commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of president kennedy and the subsequent violent death of lee harvey oswald. in particular as to you, captain solomon, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of oswald and any other pertinent facts you might know about the general inquiry. captain solomon, you have appeared today by virtue of a general request made to chief curry by mr. j. lee rankin, who is the general counsel on the staff of the president's commission. under the rules adopted by the commission, you are entitled to a -day written notice prior to the taking of your deposition. but the rules also provide that any witness may waive that -day notice if he wishes to do so. now, i would like to ask you if you are willing to waive the -day notice? mr. solomon. yes, sir. mr. hubert. all right, then; would you please raise your right hand. do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. solomon. i do. mr. hubert. will you please state your full name, captain? mr. solomon. james maurice solomon. mr. hubert. what is your age, captain? mr. solomon. fifty-four. mr. hubert. and your residence? mr. solomon. east ohio. mr. hubert. what is your present occupation? mr. solomon. my occupation at the present time at the police department is reserve coordinator. mr. hubert. you are a member of the dallas police department? mr. solomon. yes. mr. hubert. how long have you been a member of the department? mr. solomon. thirty years last september. mr. hubert. your particular assignment now is to coordinate the reserve affairs? mr. solomon. yes, sir. mr. hubert. of the dallas police department? mr. solomon. my offices are at the police academy, and i am used out there in training recruits. mr. hubert. were you in that same position during the period november to , ? mr. solomon. yes, sir. mr. hubert. i would like you to state for the record just how the reserve program of the dallas police department is set up, because i don't think we have it in the record otherwise. mr. solomon. well, i am sure you don't. the reserve operates different in every city that i know, and just to their particular needs. now, the reserve organization in dallas is strictly what the name implies. it is, really a reserve intended to be called upon when there is a catastrophe, some real bad emergency, to augment our manpower. it is a semimilitary organization in that we call it the reserve platoon. it has three companies commanded by a captain. each company has three platoons. and each platoon has three squads. there are approximately--it fluctuates just a little bit--but there are approximately men in the organization. mr. hubert. who is the reserve captain? mr. solomon. there are four reserve captains. now, the reserve major is major tropolis, the major in command. we call him the reserve commander. he is george tropolis. mr. hubert. who are the captains? mr. solomon. the captains are j. e. marks, c. o. arnett--i believe you talked to him last night--l. c. crump and o. s. muller. mr. hubert. do these men train at regular intervals? mr. solomon. yes, sir. they are all required to go through a training program of about hours. they do that night a week. takes about months to complete that before they are used in any way, before they are given a uniform or anything of that nature. after they complete this training, they are outfitted with a uniform at their own expense, and from then on the participation that they do is considered observation training. in other words, there is a program set up whereby they report at least two times a month. we have it set up twice a month, and mandatory that they come every third month. if they don't we drop them. but each reserve is required to report at least once a month for observation training. he can do this in a squad car, in the jail office, or dispatcher's office, or in any phase of the police operation, really, and he is in uniform, and he works right alongside the regular officer and just assists him in his work in anything he wants him to do if he has a belligerent prisoner, but still that is considered observation training. here in the last year or so, we have been using our reserves more maybe like an auxiliary, but there have been times such as a parade or football parade--in other words, it wasn't an extreme emergency, but it was an event that we realized we needed more manpower, and they were anxious and willing and eager to help us, and they were being in uniform and were doing a good job. you want me to continue? mr. hubert. do these men get any pay for this? mr. solomon. no. there is no pay at all. mr. hubert. as a matter of fact, they buy their own pistol and uniform? mr. solomon. yes. they buy their own initial uniform. after that their uniforms are maintained with the old uniforms that the regular officers outgrow or something like that. mr. hubert. i gather from what you have said that you are rather strict as to the training program that these people must observe, otherwise you drop them? mr. solomon. yes. mr. hubert. what about the basic selection of these people? how do you go about that? what are the criteria you use to select them? mr. solomon. we have just an application form similar to what anybody would fill out in applying for a job, which is for their background, their schooling, what type of work they have been engaged in, where they have lived, and so forth. then, of course, i submit that application to our personnel bureau which runs a background check on them, criminal and civil, or any court record they might have that might show their emotional stability or we run a credit check on them for bad debts or something like that, that kind of indication that they are not stable. and traffic arrests. if it is somebody out of the ordinary, why we are kind of strict along that score. i have these reserve captains that i just mentioned that comprise the reserve staff, and each applicant i get after the personnel board submits their findings, they interview the men, and they have some information to go on there, and whether he is accepted to go to school. after they interview him and ask him questions about trying to feel out if they think he is emotionally suited for that kind of work. mr. hubert. what, in your opinion, is it that interests a man to want to be in the reserve program? mr. solomon. well, that may be a vocation a little bit. you know, before i got into the program, i thought maybe it was just a group of people that were just trying to--they were just eager, i would say, in other words. i thought they were, how should i say it, i just felt like they were kind of overeager, or just nosy, so to speak, and they just wanted to see around. but after i got into the program, i was amazed to find the caliber of men. i have only been in years. i went in . it was begun in . and the man that had it then has since made a promotion to inspector, and i was assigned out there. mr. hubert. in other words, you have satisfied yourself, i gather, that the motivation of these people for getting in the reserves is that they consider it a civic duty? mr. solomon. a civic duty, yes, sir; civic minded. mr. hubert. it is not just that they want the authority of the uniform? mr. solomon. yes, sir. of course, we have applicants like that. it is the duty of the staff, in a drawn-out process of training, which is really drawn out months, and long enough to observe them, to eliminate the ones they don't feel are suitable. i nearly always start off with a class of men and i rarely ever graduate over -- to . during that period of time some naturally drop out and some i ask to leave, or just wash out, one way or another, as quickly as i can. after all, it is a public relations program, and if i understand somebody is in there that i know will get us in trouble, i find some excuse for him to leave. mr. hubert. so, actually, about percent of the people who start ultimately get into the program? mr. solomon. that's right. mr. hubert. do you watch their conduct very carefully? on duty, of course i know, but off duty too? mr. solomon. well, yes. we have had a few occasions where a few got into some trouble. i guess just drinking or some did get into some bad debts and embarrass us, but we counseled with them. and i have had to let some go. percentagewise this hasn't been much greater than in our regular department. mr. hubert. all right. now, i want to get to the matter of the interview you had with harold holly, who i think is a reserve officer? mr. solomon. yes. mr. hubert. can you state in your own words just what that was all about? mr. solomon. well, holly was with us a long time. he was in the organization, i have forgotten how many years, but i don't guess that is important. but frankly, holly was--he is confused. i am not exactly satisfied that he is sure about what he is saying. his statements were so general, such a general nature, and when i showed him the pictures he was unable to positively identify them. this man that he did pick out and said that he looked most like the man that was in the basement was w. j. newman. he was in the basement, but he wasn't out at parkland hospital where he told them he saw him, and i just got the impression that holly was--he just wasn't too reliable a witness. mr. hubert. what did he say to you? of course, we will get his testimony, but what do you remember that holly said to you? mr. solomon. well, he first approached me--you see, i was at the courthouse down in the area when oswald was shot, so i knew immediately from the previous slaying that one of our big headaches was going to be at the parkland hospital, and i rushed on out there to try to set up a little security out there. and holly showed up out there after awhile, and he made the statement to me that he thinks he knew a man--that is the way he put it, that he thought he saw one of the men out there that was in the basement of the city hall who knew something about that. and i said, "who was it," and he said, "i couldn't tell you, but i would know him if i saw him." mr. hubert. did he say the man was in uniform? mr. solomon. yes; he said he saw him out there at parkland hospital, so i tried to check. mr. hubert. this was told you at parkland hospital? mr. solomon. yes; this afternoon. mr. hubert. the th? mr. solomon. yes. mr. hubert. did he indicate that he thought he was a reserve officer? mr. solomon. yes. mr. hubert. that is why he told it to you, i suppose? mr. solomon. yes; right. so i tried to find out who he was talking about, and he went with me and we couldn't find anybody that he thought he saw. and just from the way he talked to me, i just lost confidence in what he was trying to tell me. but i pursued it as far as i could, naturally, and asked him if he could identify some pictures, and i got all the pictures of the men that reported out there, and he picked out this man. and from there on, i didn't question him any further. mr. hubert. he did pick out the picture of w. j. newman and he said that was the man? mr. solomon. he said he thought it was, it looked most like him. i don't think that it was, but it looked most like him. mr. hubert. of course, newman was subsequently---- mr. solomon. he was interviewed by jack revill. mr. hubert. did you ever talk to newman yourself about the matter? mr. solomon. no; i didn't engage him in any conversation about it because i knew they were going to and i just didn't want to get him upset or say anything. i didn't know what he wanted to exactly question him about. mr. hubert. so that you have not talked to newman about what he might have seen or thought? mr. solomon. no. mr. hubert. or what he reported or didn't report? mr. solomon. no; that is right. mr. hubert. were you present at the time in the basement, at the time oswald was killed? mr. solomon. i was not. i was at the county courthouse. mr. hubert. you were not in the basement itself? mr. solomon. no. mr. hubert. you don't know anything about what happened? mr. solomon. they were anticipating trouble. mr. hubert. you were in the city hall? mr. solomon. no. mr. hubert. i thought you meant the dallas police building? mr. solomon. no, sir; that is the county courthouse. mr. hubert. i am going to mark for identification a document purporting to be a report of an interview with you, captain solomon, made by fbi agents hughes and mabey on december , , composed of two pages, and i am identifying it by marking along the right margin line, "dallas, texas, march , , exhibit , deposition of capt. j. m. solomon," and i am signing my name on the first page and putting on the second page my initials in the lower right-hand corner. captain solomon, have you read this document? mr. solomon. yes. mr. hubert. so that we may recognize that we are talking about the same thing, would you put your signature at the bottom and your initials on the second page. mr. solomon. i don't think that this is what i did awhile ago. you want my initials here? mr. hubert. just write by the margin and initials by the second page. mr. solomon. [signs and dates.] mr. hubert. now, you have read that document, i think, captain? mr. solomon. yes. mr. hubert. is that a correct report of your interview with the fbi agents? mr. solomon. yes, sir. mr. hubert. is there anything that is omitted or that you want to change, or modify? mr. solomon. no. mr. hubert. captain, do you know anything about this matter other than what we have talked about, that you would like to put into the record, sir? mr. solomon. no, sir; i do not. mr. hubert. all right. now, have you been interviewed by any member of the commission staff? mr. solomon. no. mr. hubert. as a matter of fact, before the commencement of this deposition, i did not interview you? mr. solomon. no. mr. hubert. i think, captain, that i mentioned the word "pistol" a moment ago in connection with arming of the reserves? mr. solomon. did you? i didn't recall it. mr. hubert. you indicated to me that actually these men are not armed with firearms? mr. solomon. no; they are not armed. would you want to make part--this part of the record? this is what i call an information sheet about what the reserve is. a lot of times a citizen calls me and wants to know something about it, and i mail them that. (hands to mr. hubert.) mr. hubert. all right. i will accept this. i will mark on the front page, dallas, tex., march , , exhibit . you call that a brochure? mr. solomon. i call it an information sheet. we generally refer to it as a poop sheet. mr. hubert. i am writing on this sheet, "exhibit , deposition of capt. j. m. solomon." i am signing my name, and for identification, if you will sign yours? mr. solomon. yes. that just gives a little more detail than what i told you about it, and i had forgotten that. that might be important that they are not armed. that is why we don't let them work in any capacity unless they are in the company of an officer. mr. hubert. on the day in question, to wit, the th of november , the reserve officers were in uniform but of course not armed? mr. solomon. that's right. mr. hubert. i notice that this exhibit contains information about the minimum standards that are required? mr. solomon. yes. mr. hubert. for admission and maintaining the status of a reserve officer, is that correct? mr. solomon. yes. mr. hubert. can you state that these minimum standards are in force? mr. solomon. yes, sir. mr. hubert. one other question. can you state that the reserve officers that were on duty on the th did meet these minimum standards? mr. solomon. yes, sir. mr. hubert. do you have anything else to say? mr. solomon. well, i don't suppose you want to know that we had some on duty during the presidential parade? is that important? mr. hubert. it might be in another aspect of the matter, but the one i am inquiring about, it is not. however, i am sure that the information that you have given me, generally speaking, should be made a part of the record, and that is why i have done that. thank you very much, sir. mr. solomon. you are so welcome. mr. hubert. i appreciate your coming down. mr. solomon. all right. thank you very much, sir. testimony of m. w. stevenson the testimony of m. w. stevenson was taken at p.m., on march , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. leon d. hubert, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. hubert. this is the deposition of assistant deputy chief m. w. stevenson of the dallas police department. mr. stevenson, my name leon hubert. i am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy. under the provisions of executive order , dated november , , joint resolution of congress no. , and the rules of procedure adopted by the commission in conformance with the executive order and the joint resolution, i have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you. mr. stevenson, i state to you now, that the general nature of the commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of president kennedy and the subsequent violent death of lee harvey oswald, and in particular as to you, mr. stevenson, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of oswald and any other pertinent facts that you may know about the general inquiry. mr. stevenson, you have appeared here today by virtue of a general request made by the general counsel of the staff of the president's commission. under the rules adopted by the commission, you are entitled to a -day written notice prior to the taking of this deposition. but the rules provide also that a witness may waive this notice of the taking of his deposition. are you willing to waive this notice in time? mr. stevenson. i am; yes, sir. mr. hubert. now, will you rise and be sworn, please. do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. stevenson. i do. mr. hubert. will you please state your full name, your age, your residence, and your occupation, and how long you have been in that occupation? mr. stevenson. m. w. stevenson. i am years of age. i reside at boulder drive. i am with the dallas police department. have been for years. mr. hubert. what position do you now occupy with the dallas police department? mr. stevenson. i am deputy chief, commanding the criminal investigation division. mr. hubert. did you hold that same position during the period november to of ? mr. stevenson. yes; i did. mr. hubert. how long have you held that position? mr. stevenson. since november of . mr. hubert. generally speaking, what are the functions of your job? what are your duties and responsibilities? mr. stevenson. i am in command of the criminal investigation division, and as such, i am responsible for the criminal investigation division of the dallas police department. i coordinate the work among the five bureaus which constitute the criminal investigation division. mr. hubert. would you state what those bureaus are, please, sir? mr. stevenson. i have a homicide and robbery bureau, an automobile theft bureau; i have a juvenile bureau; a burglary and theft bureau; and a forgery bureau. mr. hubert. could you tell us now who was in charge of each of those bureaus during the period november - , of ? mr. stevenson. captain fritz was in charge of the homicide bureau as the immediate supervisor. captain jones was in charge of the forgery bureau. captain nichols was off that day, and i don't know which lieutenant was on. mr. hubert. you say, "that day." i was really speaking of the -day period. mr. stevenson. captain nichols, i am sorry, was in charge of the automobile theft bureau. capt. f. m. martin was in charge of the juvenile bureau. capt. w. c. fannin was in charge of the burglary and theft bureau. mr. hubert. just to get the record clear, insofar as captain nichols is concerned, you indicate he was off on day of the -day period. which day was that? mr. stevenson. i believe that was the th. mr. hubert. now each one of these bureau chiefs reports to you and is responsible to you, is that correct? mr. stevenson. that's right; yes, sir. mr. hubert. who are you responsible to? mr. stevenson. to the assistant chief of police. mr. hubert. who is that? mr. stevenson. chief charles batchelor. mr. hubert. in the course of this examination, it would be helpful to us if you would try to state an approximate time as to each episode or fact that you testify to, and also indicate whether the fact or matter or episode that you are testifying to is within your own knowledge; that is to say, gained from your own observation, or whether the information you give us was obtained from someone else, in that case, tell us if you can remember who gave you the information. mr. stevenson. yes, sir. mr. hubert. now, would you just give us briefly an account of what you did from about : on november on forward. mr. stevenson. at about or approximately : p.m., on the d, i was at the trade mart on industrial, as i had charge of the officers and the security of the building for the luncheon of president kennedy. at about : , approximately, i was notified by secret service agent grant and captain souter that the president had been shot. we didn't know how severe. it was stated that he was on the way to the hospital. i immediately contacted captain fritz and two of his homicide men and relieved them from their assignment at the trade mart and assigned them to the investigation. as soon as i had done that, i relieved other detectives and supervisors. i believe it was . i told them to notify headquarters they were available for assignment, and if no assignment, to report to the texas book depository, as it was reported that there was a possibility the suspect might still be in the building. after that, as fast as i could safely in my own opinion relieve the balance of men who i had on duty, because it had not been announced to the entire group there what had happened--that was at the request of the secret service that we didn't want a stampede there--as fast as i could relieve the others, i started relieving and putting them on duty and telling them to report to headquarters or notify headquarters they were available for assignment and any assistance they could give. at approximately or : , i would say, mr. eric jonsson notified the group of people in the trade mart that the president had been shot and had succumbed. then as soon as we could empty the building, we relieved everyone and put them all back on duty with instructions to report to headquarters, where we kept them on duty as long as we needed any on any of the assignments. chief batchelor was still at the trade mart when we finally relieved all of the men. he and i left the trade mart and drove to parkland hospital to see if we could render any assistance out there. when we got out there, we found mr. lawson of the secret service. he stated he would be ready in a few moments, to transfer the president's body to love field to be flown back to washington. he had no escort. he asked if we would escort the hearse bearing the body to love field. we told him that we would. he, and i believe it was a member of the white house staff, rode in the car with us. we led the hearse to love field. arrived at love field---- mr. hubert. do you know what time you left the hospital, approximately? mr. stevenson. i would say around : , that is as near as i could say offhand, mr. hubert. i would say : to o'clock. mr. hubert. so you provided the escort for the hearse leaving the hospital about : ? mr. stevenson. about : or : . it's got to be somewhere in there, because the body was not held at the hospital but a short while. mr. hubert. did you know jack ruby prior to the time that he shot oswald? mr. stevenson. no, sir. mr. hubert. of course, you have seen pictures of him since, i take it? mr. stevenson. oh, yes. mr. hubert. while you were at the hospital, and i would like you to state if you can, the time you arrived there, did you see jack ruby at any place around the hospital? mr. stevenson. no, i did not. in fact, i did not get out of the car. i sat in the car by the radio while chief batchelor walked into the hospital to see if we could be of any further assistance. mr. hubert. that was about what time that you arrived there, mr. stevenson? mr. stevenson. i would say we arrived at the hospital around : . mr. hubert. all right, then go on. mr. stevenson. after we reached love field, the secret service men loaded the casket onto the president's plane. they told us that they had called judge sarah t. hughes to administer the oath of office to president johnson. she arrived in a short time. we remained at love field until she administered the oath and the plane was airborne. after the president's plane was airborne, we left and came back to the city hall. we arrived back at the city hall around o'clock, i would say. mr. hubert. when you say city hall, do you mean police department? mr. stevenson. police courts building, our headquarters. mr. hubert. for the record, i wish you would describe the relationship between what is the police building and the municipal building of the city hall. mr. stevenson. the police and courts building is what was, until a few years ago, the city hall proper. a new building was constructed adjacent to this building and adjoining it just east of the police and courts building. it is now ordinarily referred to as the city hall, the building which is on the corner of main, harwood and commerce, which is the old city hall, now known as the police and courts building, and houses the jail, the police department, and one or two offices of our city government. but primarily it is referred to, or should be referred to as the police and courts building. mr. hubert. all right. now, go on. so you arrived back at the police department. mr. stevenson. we arrived back at the office about o'clock, or maybe a few minutes later. i went directly to the homicide bureau. chief batchelor went to the administrative offices. before leaving the trade mart, i had gotten information through captain souter that the suspect in the shooting of officer tippit had been arrested. on the air on the way to the hospital, we heard several squads being dispatched to texas theatre. i asked the dispatcher what we had working at texas theatre, and he advised me that it was the suspect who had shot officer tippit, that he had been arrested at the texas theatre. at that time i advised them that chief batchelor and myself, or " " and " ," as i told him, which are our call numbers, were en route to parkland hospital and would be in the area and back to the office as soon as possible. when i arrived back at the city hall i went to the homicide bureau to see what progress on our investigation was made, i was advised that oswald had definitely been identified in murder of officer tippit. mr. hubert. who advised you of this? mr. stevenson. lieutenant wells in the homicide office. mr. hubert. did you see oswald at that time? mr. stevenson. no, sir; i didn't; he was being interviewed, but i did not see him. mr. hubert. who was interviewing him? mr. stevenson. captain fritz and some fbi agent, i don't know who, and i believe a secret service agent. mr. hubert. are you aware now of a message that had been sent by the fbi to the dallas police department concerning the security of oswald? mr. stevenson. not at that time, no, sir. that was friday afternoon? mr. hubert. yes; but you didn't learn that mr. hoover had sent word that great care should be taken for the security? mr. stevenson. not at that time, i had not; no, sir. mr. hubert. will you tell us without detail, generally speaking, of your activities on the rest of the d, and the d. mr. stevenson. after i was advised that he had definitely been identified and from evidence which was being checked, it looked like he possibly might be the same man who shot the president. i returned to my office in the administrative offices, and was in and out of the homicide bureau on numerous times, staying in touch with the investigation, and they were in touch with my office. about p.m., i believe it was , approximately , oswald was filed on for the murder of officer tippit, and was arraigned in the police and courts building by justice of the peace dave johnston, i believe it was. now at approximately, i would say, or o'clock, some word came to me from chief curry, which apparently was from mr. hoover or someone from washington, that they wanted an agent of the fbi or secret service present at all interviews. that was the first that i had heard of anything from this, and that came to me through chief curry. at about midnight, i was advised by lieutenant wells, and i talked to mr. alexander, assistant district attorney, and mr. jim allen, former first assistant district attorney and a friend of the department, and was advised that sufficient evidence had been obtained and that charges were being filed in the death of president kennedy. mr. hubert. charges against oswald? mr. stevenson. oswald; yes, sir. he was arraigned. mr. hubert. they did not tell you at that time, did they, what evidence it was, but simply that it was sufficient evidence? mr. stevenson. no, sir; not all of it, but they told me at that time that they had found a rifle that they were sure was the one. they had talked to witnesses. the officer had seen him in the texas book depository a few minutes after the shooting. he was an employee down there. he had left the building after the shooting. mr. hubert. they told you all this at the time they told you that they had enough in their opinion to charge? mr. stevenson. yes; charges were filed. and at about : a.m., on the d, he was arraigned in the identification bureau on the charge of murdering president kennedy, before judge dave johnston, and was returned to his cell under guard at that time after the arraignment. i was present at that arraignment. i was not present at the arraignment on the tippit case. after he was arraigned, i returned to my office and was in my office, the homicide office or bureau where i might have business for the balance of the night up until about o'clock, at which time the homicide office was closed until the following morning. i remained on duty in the administrative offices with detectives whom we had working that night standing by for any assignments or any other information we might get, that we wanted to investigate during the night--and left the city hall, the police and courts building at about : saturday afternoon. mr. hubert. now are you familiar with the lineup conducted in the regular assembly or lineup room of the dallas police department of oswald when some newspaper people were present? mr. stevenson. yes. mr. hubert. could you tell us about that? first of all, what time was it? mr. stevenson. that was a few moments after charges were filed, i believe, by the district attorney. mr. hubert. charges on oswald? mr. stevenson. on oswald in the president's death. the district attorney, mr. wade, and the assistant, mr. alexander, were present. mr. hubert. were you present? mr. stevenson. i did not go into the room, i just went to the door down there. i was present when they did go down for the showup, but i did not go into the room. mr. hubert. you say you did not look into the room? mr. stevenson. i did not go into the room. the door, of course, was open, but i was present when they left the third floor, the homicide office, to go down for this lineup. mr. hubert. you went down to the door of the lineup room? mr. stevenson. yes. mr. hubert. do you recall looking in at all? mr. stevenson. yes, i could look in through the open door. mr. hubert. did you see a man since identified as jack ruby, in that room? mr. stevenson. oh, no, sir; i did not. mr. hubert. did you hear him say anything? mr. stevenson. no, sir. frankly, i was not close enough. the only ones that i could see or did see were those lined up in the front of the room. mr. hubert. how many people were in that room, do you suppose? mr. stevenson. i would say, and this is an estimate on my part, mr. hubert--i would say from to , including officers and news media and everything. mr. hubert. do you know what security plan or actual operations were put into effect with respect to oswald during that period? mr. stevenson. when he left upstairs, he was taken back through the jail office. from the jail office down, there is an elevator to the downstairs jail office, onto the "showup stage," as we call it in the assembly room. he was taken down through the jail; was not taken out from there. now to take him into the showup room, i was not where i could see how many officers were around him. but it was necessary to bring him from the elevator next to the homicide bureau every time we brought him down to interview him. at that time we would have as many as three officers with him, and from four to half a dozen officers on the route through to the next door. mr. hubert. do you know what check was made of the people who were allowed into the assembly room? mr. stevenson. no one was supposed to have been in the assembly room or on the third floor except news media properly identified. mr. hubert. how was this established? mr. stevenson. we had officers at the elevators and the stairways with instructions that unless they were an official or connected with an official news media, they were not to be permitted on that floor unless they had business in one of the other bureaus, and the officer was to escort him to that bureau. we later eliminated as much of that as we could that night by calling the jail office. if he wanted to visit some prisoner at the jail, the jail personnel called the bureau and were instructed as to whether a pass would be permitted. mr. hubert. but do you know whether or not, as these newsmen and the rest of the other news media went into the assembly room for this lineup, whether they were checked in any way again upon entering? mr. stevenson. no, sir; i don't, because when i went down to the basement, they were already in the room. in other words, they had already filed into the room. mr. hubert. what else do you know in general terms about the security of oswald when he was in the cell? i think you have already covered when he was being moved? mr. stevenson. yes; there was a guard on his cell at all times, and at sometimes there were as many as two, but around the clock a guard was placed outside his cell door. he was not permitted to converse with other prisoners. in fact, he was placed in a cell where it would be impossible for other prisoners to get to him. for the arraignment in the murder of the president, he was brought from the jail into the identification bureau, where there is a barred door coming in to identification room from jail. he was not brought back through the police and courts building proper. he was brought directly from the jail into the identification bureau when he was arraigned. mr. hubert. i think that takes us then to : on saturday. you were on duty until : a.m. on saturday? mr. stevenson. right. mr. hubert. when did you come back to duty thereafter? mr. stevenson. i came back to the city hall saturday evening about or : , and went immediately to the homicide bureau to check on any further developments, and was advised that the case was building stronger, other evidence being accumulated, and if i might go back a little bit now, at around o'clock, on saturday morning--i am trying to get my time straightened out here--the pertinent evidence that we had checked in the case of oswald's shooting of the president was forwarded to the federal bureau of investigation laboratory in washington, d.c., to be processed, the rifle and other evidence as that for fingerprints and any other evidence that might help us in the investigation. after i had gotten back to the city hall saturday afternoon, through discussion, i don't recall from whom, but in the hallway, that the prisoner would not be transferred before o'clock the next morning. i went to chief batchelor and asked him about the authenticity of that particular remark, and he said, "yes, that's right." and i said, "has the press been notified?" and he said, "yes." mr. hubert. what time was it that you first heard about the fact that oswald would not be moved saturday night? mr. stevenson. approximately : p.m., on the d. mr. hubert. now just what was it you heard and what was it that was confirmed by batchelor? mr. stevenson. i heard, as i stated, i don't know who made the remarks, but from the discussion in the hall, that oswald would be moved not before o'clock the next morning. mr. hubert. did the information that you received indicate a time of removal the next day? mr. stevenson. nothing but that it would not be before o'clock. mr. hubert. it didn't say what time after o'clock? mr. stevenson. no, sir. mr. hubert. did batchelor tell you what time it would be after o'clock? mr. stevenson. no, sir. i went to chief batchelor--the reason i went to chief batchelor with that when i heard these remarks, i wanted to know if the press had been told. i went to chief batchelor and affirmed the fact that the statement had been made and that the press had been told. mr. hubert. all right; just go ahead then. mr. stevenson. i remained at my office in the police and courts building until approximately : saturday night, at which time i went home. and returned to the police and courts building at approximately o'clock, sunday morning, the th. mr. hubert. now before you left your duty on saturday night, do you know of any plans that had been made for the transfer of oswald and the security of that transfer? mr. stevenson. no, sir; not on saturday night, to my knowledge, i don't recall. mr. hubert. all right, then, proceed to sunday, please, sir. mr. stevenson. i arrived at the basement of the police and courts building at approximately o'clock. maybe : . i believe chief batchelor arrived at about the same time, and chief curry either came in near that time or a few minutes later. now, i don't recall. when chief batchelor and i were in the basement; we observed a captain talbert had already started setting up security in the basement and on the streets outside. mr. hubert. will you describe what you mean when you say he had already started setting up security? mr. stevenson. he had placed officers on the commerce street side of the city hall at the top of the ramp. there was two or three officers at that time, we observed, in the basement. and i believe captain talbert was in the basement, and one of the sergeants, possibly sergeant dean. i could be wrong on dean being there at that time. mr. hubert. that was when you first came in? mr. stevenson. that was when we first arrived at the city hall. it was too early at that time to see just where we would want the men assigned, or where he would have them assigned, rather, because i was not assigning the men to security other than being of any assistance to the men in my division that i could possibly be. chief curry, chief batchelor, and myself looked over the basement shortly after, or i would say : . chief curry observed a large tv camera sitting back in the alcove as you go into the double doors into the police and courts building of the basement. mr. hubert. is that the basement side of those double doors, or on the jail side? mr. stevenson. that was just outside the jail windows after you get through the double doors from inside the police and courts building. it was sitting outside the doors in the part of what is a part of the basement. mr. hubert. i see. mr. stevenson. he instructed that the camera would have to be moved and moved across the driveway into the parking area proper. he also instructed at that time, i believe it was at that time, that the two cars that were parked, i would say it was a squad car and a plain car, in spaces one and two, as i will refer to them, were directly across from the door leading out of the basement, that they would be moved and those spaces left unoccupied, no cars would be parked in there. mr. hubert. chief stevenson, i have before me the chart of the basement area including the jail office and parking area and the ramps and so forth. i am going to date it, and i am doing so now, "dallas, tex., march , , as exhibit ," in the deposition of chief m. w. stevenson. i am signing it with my own name, and i am going to ask you to sign it just below mine, because in your testimony from now on out, i am going to ask you to refer to this chart and put certain positions down on it. now, when you mentioned just now, a moment ago when you said that chief curry asked that two cars in spots one and two be moved off, would you indicate on exhibit by putting "spot ," and "spot ," what cars he was talking about? (writing on chart.) mr. stevenson. right here. mr. hubert. just put "spot," so we will know. "spot ," and "spot ." all right, was that done? were the cars moved? mr. stevenson. yes, sir; they were moved from those two parking spaces. mr. hubert. what happened next? mr. stevenson. at that time we all returned back up to the third floor. that was approximately, i would say, : or : . mr. hubert. that would be you and captain batchelor? mr. stevenson. that would be me and assistant chief batchelor and chief curry. mr. hubert. all right. mr. stevenson. we went back upstairs, and i would say minutes later, or approximately or : , chief curry and chief batchelor had discussed the possibility of moving the prisoner in an armored car due to some threats--incidentally, i have to drop back a little. chief batchelor notified me, when i met him down there that morning, that captain frazier, i believe it was, had called him at home and told him that the fbi had called up with some information that, i won't say how many, but a group of people were going to take oswald away from the officers on the transfer. mr. hubert. did captain frazier tell you? mr. stevenson. no; he called chief batchelor, and he told me that captain frazier had called him. mr. hubert. told him there had been a message received from the fbi that someone had called the fbi? mr. stevenson. yes. mr. hubert. stating that there would be an effort made; is that correct? mr. stevenson. right. mr. hubert. did captain batchelor indicate to you at that time whether the fbi knew who had made this call? mr. stevenson. no, sir; he did not. mr. hubert. did he indicate to you that it was an anonymous call? mr. stevenson. i believe, as i remember, he did say that the message that he got was that an anonymous caller had notified the fbi. mr. hubert. all right; go ahead with it then. mr. stevenson. they had discussed the possibility of transferring the prisoner in an armored car due to these threats. i walked in the office, in the chief's office while that was being discussed, and the chief asked me what i thought about it. i told him i thought it would be a good idea, in view of the threats. chief batchelor went to his office to contact one of the local armored truck operators, who was, i believe, a mr. fleming, and made arrangements to get an armored truck. i remained around the office on the third floor, and i believe chief batchelor and i made another trip down in the basement before i went after some coffee. chief batchelor advised chief curry he had ordered the armored truck and told chief curry, he and i were going to the basement and look the area over. we went to the basement, and captain talbert had set up, what we thought, was a very good security. mr. hubert. did you see it yourself? mr. stevenson. yes; i saw the officers, where they were distributed. mr. hubert. would you state then for the record just what you saw, what you stated you considered to be good security? and it might be that you will want to use that chart to indicate what you mean. mr. stevenson. he had placed officers--he had not stationed them definitely, but he had officers there checking everybody that came into the basement. he had officers down there that searched the entire basement area, searching cars, on top of the heat conduits, and so forth. he had officers on the ramp up here. mr. hubert. wait a minute, you say, "up here"? mr. stevenson. at the top of the commerce street ramp. mr. hubert. how many officers did he have there? mr. stevenson. i don't know just how many. he had some reserve and regular officers. and captain arnett advised us, i believe it was on this trip, that he had been instructed by captain talbert to move all of the people to the southside of commerce street, permit none of them to congregate on the city hall or police and courts building side of commerce, and that he had done that. we observed that the crowd was across the street. he had an officer stationed up here at the top of the main street ramp. mr. hubert. do you know that officer's name? mr. stevenson. vaughn, i believe it was. mr. hubert. i wonder if you would write his name there in your own handwriting. let the record indicate that mr. stevenson is writing the name of the officer vaughn on exhibit . can you tell us what officers you saw in the basement area? mr. stevenson. at that time when i was down there, i cannot say other than that i did see captain talbert. he was all over the area. mr. hubert. what time was this, about, again? mr. stevenson. this was around : , i guess. as best i recall the time on that. mr. hubert. any of the news people there then? mr. stevenson. yes, sir; there were a few. this camera had been moved. they were back over in this area back in here. mr. hubert. well, now, you are indicating on the chart that they had been moved to what is called there the parking area? mr. stevenson. parking area of the basement; yes. mr. hubert. all right; go ahead. mr. stevenson. we returned back upstairs to the third floor. chief lumpkin and i went to the second floor to the patrol captain's office. captain talbert came up to the office and asked us to have a cup of coffee with him, which we did. he asked us at this time about the time of the route of the transfer. we told him at that time that we didn't know definitely, but that we believed that it would be east on commerce to central, north on central to main, and west on main to the county jail. mr. hubert. you say that you were not certain of that information, but that you had gathered it? could you expand on that and tell us where you think you got that information? as far as you are concerned, then, there had been no plans that you knew of as to the route? mr. stevenson. not the exact route at : or o'clock, somewhere in that area. he asked us what route it would travel, and we told him that we believed that it would go up to the central expressway and west on main at that time. mr. hubert. when you used the pronoun "we," whom do you mean? mr. stevenson. chief lumpkin and i. mr. hubert. so that the route, so far as you knew it at that time, would be out of the commerce street exit, turning left, going beyond pearl street, which was one way against the direction which you wanted to go, and then over to north central expressway? mr. stevenson. yes. mr. hubert. turning left again and going to main street, turning left again, and then all the way down main to houston? mr. stevenson. right. mr. hubert. did he give any instructions, or did he indicate what he was going to do in connection with that plan? mr. stevenson. he said that he would call men from his outside patrol and place one at each intersection on the route that would be taken to the county jail, which, as i said, at that time we figured would be main street, and he did make necessary arrangements. mr. hubert. all right then; go ahead. mr. stevenson. after we had drunk a cup of coffee, we returned back to the third floor and were advised a few moments later--chief batchelor advised me that the man had called him and that he was preparing to send the truck now. we again went to the basement, he and i, to see about the arrival of the armored truck. i instructed detective captain o. a. jones to go to the top of the commerce street ramp leading out of the basement to notify the two officers who were on duty there, to assist the truck when it came up and get it backed in as far as it would go down the ramp. captain jones did this and advised me that he also told captain talbert what he had done so that captain talbert would not move the officers when they got there. the truck was en route at that time. after the truck arrived and was backed in, chief batchelor advised me that he and lieutenant smart opened the truck up and searched it completely, taking out, i believe, a couple of empty coca-cola bottles or soft drink bottles. i had returned to the third floor, went to the homicide office, homicide bureau office, chief curry, lieutenant pierce, captain fritz, and i believe an fbi agent, and lee harvey oswald was in captain fritz' office and some federal officer had been interviewing him, oh, i would say at least for an hour, and i was advised at that time by chief curry---- mr. hubert. what time was that? mr. stevenson. that was about : or : --that they had changed their plans after discussing it with captain fritz and that instead of using the armored truck to transport the prisoner to the county jail, they would use the truck as a decoy because a car would be much more maneuverable if a crowd tried or anyone started to stop the car or take the prisoner, that the truck would proceed east on commerce from the commerce street ramp to the central expressway north, north to elm street, elm street west to houston, and would turn left and not stop at the county jail, but pass by the county jail on houston, that the car carrying the prisoner followed by another car of detectives, and chief curry's car, which was also parked out in the street, would leave the truck at main street on north central and turn west down main street and proceed directly to the county jail. and the sheriff's office had been notified and would have the steel gate open where the car could drive in and the gate could be closed directly behind it. when given this information, i left the homicide bureau and started back to the basement. i met chief lumpkin at the elevator on the way to the basement and i advised him of the change in plan. on arriving at the basement, i advised chief batchelor and captain jones of the change in the plan. i had been in the basement a minute or two after i had advised them of the change, and two detectives were bringing two police and plain cars from the parking area proper onto the ramp from the parking area. i stepped across the driveway and instructed the officers there to assist the detective in getting these cars up on the ramp where it could back into, to pick the prisoner up, and follow the last car which was driven by detective dhority. as i came out of the parking area, the car pulled onto the ramp to back up. i stepped across behind the car right over here. mr. hubert. all right, would you draw a little square roughly the size of the automobile driven by dhority, and then place a circle to indicate your own position of that time? mr. stevenson. that is a long automobile, but as i recall, this post, i was standing right here, and the car had gotten back to right along here. mr. hubert. you were on the south side of that post, standing? mr. stevenson. i believe i was standing right here at the edge. mr. hubert. is that the very front of the automobile on the right side? mr. stevenson. no; i was just about at the right door hinge. the right front door hinge, that is where i was standing. that is a very poor drawing of the car, mr. hubert. mr. hubert. that is all right. just put in there, "police car," in that square. now you have also drawn a circle to the south of that post, and i wish you would draw a little arrow and put your initials indicating that that was your position. now let me get this. did your position change from the way you have marked it here at all up until ruby shot oswald? mr. stevenson. no, sir; it did not. if i may explain this a little bit, from where i have drawn this circle, this post that extends out here is built onto the wall, and where i was standing, i could see plumb back into here. i was not behind the post as it looks like here. mr. hubert. how much space was there between the post and the right side of the automobile? mr. stevenson. i would say there was feet. mr. hubert. now, would you describe for us the position of the news media in the basement area there, giving us as much as possible the number of people, say, on the main street ramp, and the number of people in the basement area proper? mr. stevenson. i would say from the corner of the building here, straight across. mr. hubert. when you say, "here," just mark a point. let's call that "number " to point number . mr. stevenson. i can make that up this way, i believe. i would say in this area, from here to here, and over here. mr. hubert. let's say you are talking about the southwest wall of the---- mr. stevenson. from the west wall--we term that the west side of the driveway of the ramp to the east side, and back up to here. mr. hubert. and back up to approximately where the ramp begins to go up, is it? mr. stevenson. let me look at my small map. i may have that marked wrong. i may not be saying what i want to say. if i have those maps with me, i hope i have as much as i worked on that thing. i ought to tell you with my eyes closed. i evidently left them. mr. hubert. all right. let's get at it this way. mr. stevenson. the driveway end out from right here. mr. hubert. don't say from right here. let me put it to you this way. on the main street ramp, it is from the---- mr. stevenson. that would be the entrance into the---- (discussion off the record to orient positions.) mr. hubert. from the corner which is formed by the intersection of the jail corridor and the main street ramp on a line roughly due east or northeast, rather, and another line running along the main street ramp, and then another line across the ramp to the wall, how many news people were in that area? mr. stevenson. i would say, and it is purely a guess, from to on the north ramp, mr. hubert. mr. hubert. how many people can you estimate could stand abreast along there? mr. stevenson. it is feet and inches wide, the ramp is. i would say people could stand in there side by side. mr. hubert. it actually is a little wider, is it not? mr. stevenson. it is down here. that is why i was looking for another little map i had there. it is and here. mr. hubert. well, roughly speaking, how many people did you see abreast there, and how many ranks of such people were there? mr. stevenson. i don't know how many ranks there were. i would say there were, counting the officers and the detectives, and that is what i would have to go by, because we had detectives ranging that whole area. i would say they were or or deep. mr. hubert. and about or across? mr. stevenson. yes. mr. hubert. so that somewhere between and people? mr. stevenson. possibly; yes, sir. mr. hubert. now, in the basement area itself, in, and particularly that portion which faces into the jail corridor, how many people were there? mr. stevenson. i would say, counting police officers and everybody, and again that is what i'd have to go by, i would say there were at least in this area in here. mr. hubert. when you say this area in here, you are describing a semicircle? mr. stevenson. from the two spaces which were cleared in the parking area proper back to---- mr. hubert. just draw a line. mr. stevenson. [compliance.] mr. hubert. would you just mark within that line the number of people that you think were within that space? mr. stevenson. [compliance.] mr. hubert. now mark the same way on the main ramp the number of people that were in the area on the main ramp? mr. stevenson. [marking] well, it is purely a guess. i would say to , in that area. mr. hubert. let me see if i can recapitulate it. on the main ramp there were between and newspeople standing abreast? mr. stevenson. not news--police and all. mr. hubert. and news people standing abreast is roughly five to six to seven to eight, perhaps? mr. stevenson. right. mr. hubert. in this other area which you have marked with a rough semicircle, there were between and people? mr. stevenson. that is an estimate, estimate on it; yes, sir. mr. hubert. now, when you came down and observed the moving of the vehicle driven by dhority, were those people in the ramp and basement area already located there? mr. stevenson. yes, sir; they were. mr. hubert. do you know what security arrangements had been made with respect to checking the presence of those people? mr. stevenson. yes, sir; the same security arrangement we had used all the way. no one was to be permitted into the basement without being a bona fide member of the press or news media, and to our knowledge, or to my knowledge, there was no one down there except members of the press or police officers, or officers from some department, a federal officer or sheriff's office. mr. hubert. do you know of any instructions that had been given with reference to checking these people for identification? mr. stevenson. only what was given to them on the third floor. now, i don't know what instructions captain talbert had given the men, but he told me he had instructed that no one would be permitted in there unless they had a press pass and was officially connected with the news media. mr. hubert. did he tell you how that would be ascertained? mr. stevenson. by the officers checking them and checking his credentials. mr. hubert. i think you had gone there earlier on the occasion of about : , i believe it was, when you and batchelor went to get coffee? mr. stevenson. that was chief lumpkin and i drank the coffee, mr. hubert. mr. hubert. anyhow, i am thinking about the last time that you were there prior to your going down finally, or to put it another way, the second to the last time you were down? mr. stevenson. the next to the last time was after i drank the coffee, chief batchelor and i went down there. mr. hubert. what time was it then? mr. stevenson. about the best i recollect, around : . mr. hubert. now were these news media people in those areas at that time? mr. stevenson. not on the main street or north ramp, not at that time. mr. hubert. do you know where they were? mr. stevenson. they were back in here. mr. hubert. that is to say, back in the basement area? mr. stevenson. yes; in the basement area. mr. hubert. so at that time you think there were approximately, well, twice the number of people that you have since described as were in the main ramp and the basement area, roughly about a hundred people? mr. stevenson. at that time there might not have been, because that was some or minutes before the prisoner was transferred. mr. hubert. were there people upstairs or elsewhere? mr. stevenson. some of them were on the third floor. some of them were on the first floor. now just where they all were, mr. hubert, prior to the time the transfer was actually made, i don't know, but about : , i would say that there was not that many down there at that time. mr. hubert. when you said the first floor, you meant the first floor of the police and courts--of the police department? mr. stevenson. of the police and courts building; yes. mr. hubert. you have already testified concerning the relation of what you call the courts? mr. stevenson. the police and courts building. mr. hubert. to the municipal building or the city hall? mr. stevenson. right. mr. hubert. do you know of your own knowledge whether there was any security as to the entrance to the city hall's first floor? mr. stevenson. oh, only what captain talbert advised me, that they did have it sealed off and had the elevators stopped on the first floor and nothing to come below the first floor of the city hall proper. mr. hubert. do you know about what entrances do exist to the city hall municipal building's first floor? mr. stevenson. yes. there is an entrance off of main street. there is an entrance off of commerce street. there is also an entrance into what we call a freight elevator off the alley on the east side which the alley runs between commerce and main and right up to the east side of the city hall. to my knowledge, those are the three entrances to the city hall proper other than from the basement and the elevators up from the basement. mr. hubert. isn't there a corridor, however, that leads from the first floor of the city hall to the first floor of the police department? mr. stevenson. yes. mr. hubert. do you know what security there was with respect to that corridor? mr. stevenson. to my own knowledge, mr. hubert, i don't know other than he did have, captain talbert said he had men on the first floor of the police and courts building and i believe that you will find a steel gate that closes off the police and courts building from the municipal building. mr. hubert. do you know whether that gate was closed? mr. stevenson. no, sir; i do not. i did not inspect that. mr. hubert. do you know whether the entrance to the first floor of the municipal building on main and commerce were locked or not locked? mr. stevenson. i did not inspect them; no, sir. i do not know of my own knowledge, but usually on a sunday, those doors are locked. mr. hubert. is that statement true about the door on the alley? mr. stevenson. to my knowledge, only the maintenance crews have keys. mr. hubert. now were any policemen assigned to any of those three entrances from the outside into the first floor of the municipal building? to wit, main street entrance, commerce street entrance, and the service door on the alley? mr. stevenson. to my own knowledge, i don't know whether captain talbert told me that he had security on the outside of the doors of the city hall and the municipal building, but i did not go out and check those to see. mr. hubert. were you aware then--that is to say, on november th, of the position of two reserve officers called brock and worley? mr. stevenson. not by name; no, sir. mr. hubert. do you know that there were two reserve officers in the basement area, one of them near the elevators and one of them near the---- mr. stevenson. this is a driveway into the parking area. mr. hubert. the driveway into the parking area proper? mr. stevenson. to my own knowledge, no, sir; i don't. i did not go back to the elevators over here to check on that. my officers were in this general area in here. mr. hubert. that is to say, you are indicating from the intersection of the jail corridor and the ramp at the basement? mr. stevenson. directly out in front of the jail office entrance, and in this area in here, and up this way and back here. mr. hubert. do you know anything about the removal of those two men from the positions indicated? mr. stevenson. no, sir; i do not. mr. hubert. now, did you observe the shooting? mr. stevenson. no, sir; i did not witness the shooting. if i may explain that, when mr. dhority backed the car that was to carry lee harvey oswald to the county jail, then, as i have stated before, i stepped to the west side of it and was right about the front hinge of the door. i heard someone remark "they are coming out." i looked around and observed captain fritz coming right through here. mr. hubert. from the jail corridor? mr. stevenson. from the jail corridor. when i saw him, i immediately directed my attention to the overall basement area of our security setup to observe anything that went on, and they had not taken but a few steps and had not reached the back of the car when i heard a shot, and immediately again i directed by attention to the prisoner and observed a group of officers, i would say, some or , subduing someone. and as i stepped back here, i saw detective graves who had been with oswald. mr. hubert. when you say, "stepped back"---- mr. stevenson. back to where the shooting had taken place, i saw him rise from the crowd with a gun in his hand still holding it around the cylinder. ruby was picked up and taken into the jail office, who i afterwards learned was ruby, and oswald was also carried into the jail office. lieutenant wiggins instructed an ambulance to be called. i then stepped back out of the jail. when the shooting took place, the officers on the main street ramp, this one up here---- mr. hubert. that would be mr. vaughn? mr. stevenson. i don't know that he was one that pulled his gun, but there were several reserve officers and other officers down in here. mr. hubert. that is on the main street ramp? mr. stevenson. i was told by, i believe it was, captain jones, that the officers up there had their guns out. and i stepped back out of the jail office after seeing that ruby and oswald had been taken care of. the north ramp was quiet, but the officers were having difficulty with people. mr. hubert. on the commerce street ramp? mr. stevenson. at the top of the commerce street ramp, or near the top. i stepped back up here and told those officers that the man that did the shooting was in custody and there was no more trouble. ruby was taken upstairs and the ambulance picked up oswald. mr. hubert. did you go up with ruby yourself? mr. stevenson. no; captain king, detective archer, and i believe mcmillon went up with lee harvey oswald. mr. hubert. you mean with ruby? mr. stevenson. i mean with ruby, pardon me. with ruby up to the jail office. captain king advised me when i came back down that they had stripped ruby of his clothing, searched him to see that he had nothing on him with which he could harm himself or harm anyone else, and in about, oh, i would say possibly minutes after he was taken upstairs, secret service agent forrest sorrels did go up and talk with him, and sergeant dean, i believe it was, took him up there. now this was told to me by sergeant dean, that mr. sorrels did request to go up and talk to him, and he did take him up there. mr. hubert. did you observe ruby before he was stripped of his clothing? mr. stevenson. yes; i observed him in the jail office after he had been picked up, after he had shot oswald. he had been picked up from just outside the jail office door near the ramp and was taken into the jail office, and he was standing in the jail office with the detectives holding him, when i walked in there. mr. hubert. did you observe any kind of press pass on his person? mr. stevenson. no, sir. mr. hubert. did you know ruby prior to that time? mr. stevenson. no, sir; i had never seen him before, as far as i know. mr. hubert. had you seen him in the crowd? mr. stevenson. no, sir. mr. hubert. did ruby say anything in your presence that you yourself heard? mr. stevenson. not that i heard myself. mr. hubert. did you give any orders concerning the search of ruby's automobile? mr. stevenson. yes, sir; i did. mr. hubert. will you tell us what they were, please? mr. stevenson. i don't recall who contacted me or called me and told me where his car was on the parking station near the western union, advising me that he had a dog in the car, a dog of some kind. i contacted my automobile theft bureau, which handles and is responsible for all impounded cars, and asked lieutenant smart to go up and get the car. he took someone with him, i don't recall who, to impound the automobile, search it, and take everything out of it that he could find. mr. hubert. now you did not get your information about the location of the car from ruby himself? mr. stevenson. no, sir; i did not. mr. hubert. and you think you got it from someone whose name you don't know or now remember? mr. stevenson. i don't recall who it was. it is possible someone who had talked to ruby, but now i can't say about that because i just don't recall who it was that advised me that his car was up there at the western union, but i did receive the information and directed lieutenant smart to get the car and search it thoroughly, impound it, and have the pound take the dog. mr. hubert. so that when you did get the information about ruby's car, you also got the information that there was a dog in it? mr. stevenson. yes, sir. mr. hubert. do you know who was assigned to control traffic at the corner of main and pearl? that is, by the western union office? mr. stevenson. no, sir; i don't. mr. hubert. or main and harwood? mr. stevenson. no, sir; i don't. mr. hubert. now, you have made a statement, i think, to the fbi, have you not, sir? mr. stevenson. yes; i was interviewed by the fbi. mr. hubert. i will hand you a document that i am going to mark now for identification as follows: dallas, tex., march , , an exhibit , deposition of chief m. w. stevenson. i am signing my name, and i would like you to read it, sir. mr. stevenson. (reads.) mr. hubert. now, mr. stevenson, you are signing it. do i take it by that, that that statement is correct, so far as you know? at least that there are no errors in it? mr. stevenson. as far as i can see, there are no errors. only one thing on this, unless i missed it right here, this does not say anything of the change of plan. mr. hubert. no? mr. stevenson. it sure doesn't. mr. hubert. well, it just speaks for itself. but apparently you called to our attention an omission from that statement which has been covered by a part of this deposition, is that correct? mr. stevenson. this was taken on the th. i guess that is right. isn't that the date here? mr. hubert. yes; the th is correct. mr. stevenson. i don't understand why that part was omitted, but i was interviewed, and there is nothing in here, as far as i am concerned, that is wrong, to my knowledge, with the exception of that omission of the change in method, of transfer. mr. hubert. there may be other things also in your deposition that do not appear in that document which we have marked as exhibit . now i show you another document which i have marked "dallas, tex., march , , exhibit , deposition of m. w. stevenson," and i have signed it with my own name. it is a part of the commission document -a, page -a, and ask you, sir, if that is a correct statement of your interview with captain sawyer? mr. stevenson. yes, sir; it is. i might add on this one, this was to find out about our security, the reason this one was put out, and that is the reason they didn't go any further. you want me to sign this? mr. hubert. yes. as i understand you, that is correct, so far as it goes? mr. stevenson. that's right. mr. hubert. would you care to state for the record, chief stevenson, what, in your opinion, was the cause of the breakdown of security which resulted in the death of oswald? mr. stevenson. mr. hubert, i don't know whether i can tell you the cause or not, but there is no doubt we had a breakdown. and if our investigation is right, it was at the main street ramp into the basement through which ruby claimed that he walked down that ramp while this officer had his back turned. and our investigation showed that he did leave the western union office some or - / minutes prior to the shooting. our breakdown, although this is my opinion, it was unintentional on the part of officer vaughn, in my opinion, he did come down that ramp. mr. hubert. is there anything else you would like to say, sir, concerning any part of this matter whatsoever? mr. stevenson. mr. hubert, i don't recall a thing that i haven't attempted to cover. however, if there is anything that i have not covered, i will be glad to attempt to or to answer any questions that you might think pertinent to it, and anything that i have failed to cover has been unintentional, i assure you. mr. hubert. i simply want to give you an opportunity now to say anything else that you might want to say, realizing, of course, that there may be other things which don't come to your mind at the moment, but i would like you to think about it and tell us if there is anything at all that has not appeared in any statement you have made or in any part of this deposition. mr. stevenson. the only thing that i could say that comes to my mind at the present is, up until oswald was killed in the basement, we felt like we had built a good case on oswald as the slayer of president kennedy, and we felt we had done a good job on the arrest and the accumulation of the evidence. we just had a breakdown. we were let down unintentionally, in my opinion, from the investigation, by one officer that permitted ruby to get into the basement. mr. hubert. have you made any other statement, mr. stevenson, other than those that you have identified as exhibits and ? mr. stevenson. not to my knowledge that i recall, other than the overall chronological report that we made to the chief of police regarding the entire operation and plan for the visit of the president all the way through until oswald was slain by ruby in the basement. mr. hubert. was that a joint report? mr. stevenson. yes. mr. hubert. tell us who prepared that. mr. stevenson. it was chief batchelor, chief lumpkin, myself, chief fisher, chief lunday, captain souter, and all of the supervisors who had a definite responsibility in preparing and carrying out the plans for the president's visit to our city on november the d. mr. hubert. was that a written report? mr. stevenson. yes. mr. hubert. do you have a copy of that, sir? mr. stevenson. it's in this. i believe i have it. (looking.) it isn't in there, sir. i believe that is the entire report. (handing papers to mr. hubert.) i don't think it would be in there. that is our security investigation report, mr. hubert. you will find that that is signed by chief batchelor, chief lumpkin, and myself. all of the officers did not sign it. we merely got their version, their reports and things and incorporated them in one chronological report. mr. hubert. you have, mr. stevenson, handed me a document consisting of numbered pages, the first page apparently being unnumbered, dated november , , addressed to mr. j. e. curry, chief of police, and bearing on page , the typed names of charles batchelor, george lumpkin, and m. w. stevenson. you have also stated to me that this copy was available to the commission. i am therefore marking it as follows: "dallas, tex., march , , exhibit , deposition of m. w. stevenson." i am signing it with my name, leon d. hubert, jr. i am going to ask you to sign your name under mine, and i am initialling myself, each one of the pages, and i would appreciate it, if you would also initial each one of the pages. i am placing my initials on each one of the pages in the lower right-hand corner of each page. mr. stevenson. (initials each page.) mr. hubert. mr. stevenson, i have now signed the first page under my signature, that being the unnumbered page. i ask you if you have checked the sequence of pages thereafter and find that they run in perfect sequence through , page , being the last page? mr. stevenson. i have. mr. hubert. you have also placed your initials on each one of those pages in the lower right-hand corner below my signature, is that correct? mr. stevenson. i have. mr. hubert. the original of this was signed by you, sir? mr. stevenson. by chief batchelor, chief lumpkin, and myself. mr. hubert. and you delivered that to chief curry? mr. stevenson. yes. mr. hubert. now, have you been interviewed by any of the commission staff prior to the taking of this deposition? mr. stevenson. no, sir; i have not. mr. hubert. well, let me correct you. you were interviewed by me just before the beginning of this deposition? mr. stevenson. yes; i was. i answered too quick then. mr. hubert. that interview took place this afternoon for about an hour and a half, i think, immediately preceding the time that we started to take the deposition? mr. stevenson. that's right. mr. hubert. you have not been interviewed by any other member of the commission staff except that interview with me? mr. stevenson. no, sir; i have not. mr. hubert. can you tell me whether you perceive any inconsistency between the deposition you have given and the interview that i conducted with you prior to the taking of the deposition? mr. stevenson. no, sir; i don't believe i can see any inconsistency. i did do this at your request, or i say with your permission i looked over some of my notes before the taking of this, and the only thing that i think was any change made was in answer to captain talbert's question as to what the route of transfer would be. i think when i discussed it with you prior to the taking of this deposition, i told you that we told him we thought it would go down elm. when i reviewed my notes, it was main street that we had told him. mr. hubert. now do you know of any other material information that was covered in the interview that preceded this deposition which has not been developed during the deposition? mr. stevenson. no, sir; not that i recall. mr. hubert. i think that is all unless you have anything else. mr. stevenson. i don't recall a thing else, mr. hubert. mr. hubert. thank you very much. testimony of capt. cecil e. talbert the testimony of capt. cecil e. talbert was taken at : p.m., on march , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. leon d. hubert, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. hubert. this is the deposition of capt. cecil t. talbert, patrol division, dallas police department. my name is leon d. hubert, jr.; i am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy. under the provisions of executive order , dated november , , joint resolution of congress , and the rules of procedure adopted by the commission in conformance with the executive order and the joint resolutions, i have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, captain talbert. i will state to you now that the general nature of the commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of president kennedy and the subsequent violent death of lee harvey oswald. in particular as to you, captain talbert, the nature of the inquiry tonight is to to determine the facts you know about the death of oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry of the commission. now, captain talbert, you have appeared here tonight by virtue of a general request made by the general counsel of the staff of the president's commission, mr. j. lee rankin. under the rules adopted by the commission, you are entitled to a -day written notice prior to the taking of this deposition, but those rules also provide that a witness may waive the -day notice in writing. are you willing to waive that notice? captain talbert. i'd like to waive it, sir. mr. hubert. now, will you stand and be sworn? do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? captain talbert. i do. mr. hubert. will you please state your name? captain talbert. cecil earl talbert. mr. hubert. your age? captain talbert. i am . mr. hubert. your residence? captain talbert. toltec, dallas. mr. hubert. what is your present occupation, sir? captain talbert. police department. captain of patrol division. mr. hubert. how long have you been with the police department? captain talbert. seventeen years. mr. hubert. how long have you held the rank of captain? captain talbert. you will have to forgive me just a minute. mr. hubert. well, just approximately is all right. captain talbert. january , . mr. hubert. what are your duties and responsibilities on the dallas police force? captain talbert. i have a patrol platoon. three captains assigned to the patrol division. each has a platoon. we rotate around the clock and while on duty would have the patrol function. mr. hubert. that is the patrol function throughout the city. captain talbert. throughout the city; yes, sir. mr. hubert. who is your immediate superior? captain talbert. chief fisher; n. t. fisher. mr. hubert. and he is head of the patrol division in general? captain talbert. yes, sir. mr. hubert. three captains under him? captain talbert. yes, sir. mr. hubert. who are the other captains? captain talbert. j. m. souter relieves me, and capt. william frazier, who relieves souter. mr. hubert. were you in that same position with the same duties and responsibilities on the th of november ? captain talbert. yes, sir. mr. hubert. were you on duty on the d of november ? captain talbert. yes, sir. mr. hubert. what hours did you serve then? captain talbert. seven to three. mr. hubert. a.m. to p.m.? captain talbert. yes. mr. hubert. did you go off duty at p.m. on the d? captain talbert. close to that, i mean close to that time; yes, sir. mr. hubert. at the time you went off duty about p.m. on the d of november, had you been informed of any plans for a transfer of oswald to the county jail? captain talbert. not by police supervisors. i had heard the information the chief had given the news media who had insisted on setting up their equipment in our jail office, or adjacent to the jail office, and he insisted that they not set it up there, and that they would be in the general public way, and only that they could report after o'clock on the next day. mr. hubert. now, you didn't hear that from the chief himself? captain talbert. not from the chief. only--that is hearsay. mr. hubert. you obtained from the radio or television or newspapers? captain talbert. possibly radio and newspapers, yes, sir. you might know we were attentive to all news media at the time. mr. hubert. now, what time, then, did you go on duty on the th? captain talbert. the morning of the th i reported when--i gave my time of duty as to . actually, we report about an hour early so that we can prepare the platoon, or any revision in the platoon that we have to make. so, at approximately o'clock, i reported to our office and relieved captain frazier. mr. hubert. now, at the time that you relieved captain frazier, did he convey any information to you? captain talbert. yes, sir. mr. hubert. tell us what he said? captain talbert. said he had a communication with sheriff decker and mr. newsom, with the fbi, and both were anxious to transfer oswald at the time. transfer him immediately to the county jail, and that he had been unable to contact the chief due to a phone malfunction. that he couldn't call him. mr. hubert. did he tell you what time he had received that information? captain talbert. he did; but i don't recall what time, sir. mr. hubert. did he tell you of any security plans that had been made to transfer oswald? captain talbert. no, sir. mr. hubert. did he tell you of any security plans that should be made, or had been ordered? captain talbert. no, sir. mr. hubert. did he then go off duty? i am talking about captain frazier now. captain talbert. yes, sir; i relieved him and he went off duty. mr. hubert. what did you do then with reference to the transfer? captain talbert. continued his efforts to contact the chief through--going through the telephone exchange. i wanted to contact him by telephone. he had contacted captain fritz with the information from both mr. newsom and the sheriff, and captain fritz said he couldn't transfer him until the chief authorized it. mr. hubert. did you talk to fritz yourself? captain talbert. no, sir; that was conveyed to me by captain frazier before he left. mr. hubert. i see. captain talbert. and i got the telephone company to put a buzzer on the chief's line, and there is no response, and they have something that is louder than a buzzer. i can't recall the term they use, but you have to get permission from the chief operator to utilize that. i had that put on the chief's line, and still no response. obviously the line was defective, so, i had a squad sent to the chief's home with the request that he call me. mr. hubert. did he call you? captain talbert. yes, sir. mr. hubert. from his home? captain talbert. yes, sir. mr. hubert. was his phone out of order? captain talbert. i don't know, sir, but by all appearances, it was out of order. i think that latter item i was speaking of was around the entire neighborhood, almost. it is quite loud, even though a phone may be off the hook. mr. hubert. what did you say to the chief? captain talbert. i repeated the conversation that frazier had told me that the sheriff had told him, and also mr. newsom had told him about two calls received by the fbi office during the night. both by men speaking in a calm voice and both conveyed the same message that before oswald reached the county jail "a hundred of us will see that he is dead." and the request by sheriff decker, and mr. newsom, that he be transferred immediately. mr. hubert. it was your understanding that newsom had received a message twice? captain talbert. his office. not mr. newsom personally. his office. mr. hubert. i see. do you know whether any such message had also been received by the sheriff's office independently? captain talbert. no, sir; i don't. mr. hubert. what time did you convey that information? captain talbert. it was approximately : , my conversation with chief curry. mr. hubert. did he give you any instructions? captain talbert. he said if i would call the sheriff and mr. newsom, tell them that he would be in his office between and , and he would contact them. mr. hubert. did you do that? captain talbert. yes, sir. mr. hubert. all right. after that, what did you occupy yourself with? captain talbert. the usual duty of getting my platoon on duty and balancing the detail. mr. hubert. did you do anything looking toward the ultimate transfer of oswald? captain talbert. not at that time; no, sir. mr. hubert. when did you begin to do anything with reference to the transfer? captain talbert. approximately a.m. traffic was building up rather heavy on the downtown streets. primarily on commerce, people going by the intersection of commerce and houston and the--viewing the book depository building, and we had a few people gathering on commerce street side of the city hall. mr. hubert. did you ever see them gathering on the main street side? captain talbert. no, sir. mr. hubert. do you know why? captain talbert. evidently the people who were gathering realized that our exit side was commerce and our entrance side was main. mr. hubert. is that a fact? captain talbert. that is a fact. mr. hubert. that is to say internally, your traffic goes from main to commerce, and goes no other way? captain talbert. that's right. mr. hubert. that is a one-way ramp? captain talbert. yes, sir; all of our vehicles enter on main street and exit on commerce street. mr. hubert. of course, there is no physical reason why it couldn't be the opposite? captain talbert. yes, sir; there is. commerce is one way, and makes it more difficult to--oh, i'm sorry. there is no physical reason. mr. hubert. no. that's all right. you have explained it. you had misunderstood what i meant when i said, "physical." captain talbert. sure. mr. hubert. actually, it is an internal rule, that is, a normal rule because of the fact that commerce is a one-way street. captain talbert. the accessibility to the street. mr. hubert. main is a two-way street? captain talbert. yes, sir. mr. hubert. what time did chief curry come in? captain talbert. i don't know, sir. i didn't see him all day. mr. hubert. you didn't see him all day on the th? captain talbert. no, sir. i mean i don't recall having seen him. i didn't converse with him. if i saw him i didn't converse with him. mr. hubert. did you take any action about looking to the movement or transfer and the security thereof, of oswald? captain talbert. that is a very broad statement and can we narrow it down into my actions taken of any probable disturbance that we might have around the city hall? mr. hubert. just tell us what you did. captain talbert. all right, sir. at , or about, lieutenant pierce, that is sam pierce. mr. hubert. that is rio pierce? captain talbert. sam. mr. hubert. sam pierce? captain talbert. rio sam pierce. r. s. pierce. [spelling] r-i-o, just like the river. rio sam pierce is my central area lieutenant, and i talked the situation over with him about the traffic problem, and the people that were giving the appearance of going to start gathering on the commerce street side, and what we should do about the possible security around the city hall. it would have to alleviate having to call the squads in over the dispatcher. at the time, we were working on a sunday detail, which is one of our smallest. sunday is a less active day, and we have fewer people working on sunday, that is, than we do any other. that is the day we try to get most of our--not "most," i'm sorry, that is a poor term. we cut our detail down on sunday due to the fact that police activity is light. so, i talked it over with him about what we should do about the method of security of the area, and finally decided that if--for him to pull three squads from each of the three substations, and four squads out of the central station, and to pick two-men squads where possible so that we could build up the total number of men that we had as quick as possible. this second platoon, the day platoon, works primarily one-man squads, and our two-man squads are trainee squads. the trainees work with an older officer and create a two-man squad there. could you leave this off just a moment? that is something---- mr. hubert. all right; off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. hubert. all right; then, you decided to set up some system of security for the police department building? captain talbert. i further told lieutenant pierce to have the basement cleared of all personnel. have them searched. thorough search, and secure it, letting only the authorized news media and police officers into the basement. mr. hubert. what---- captain talbert. the basement area that---- mr. hubert. what system of authorizing newsmen was in use? captain talbert. using their press identification. mr. hubert. had that been issued specially? captain talbert. that is the general order, , i believe that is the number of it. i don't know whether you want to include that in here or not. i believe general order , is that we would utilize--this is a long-standing--that we will utilize the normal press identification to permit news media into scenes of incident areas. the amateurs, bystanders, were kept out because they don't have those identification---- mr. hubert. is that an identification commonly known to police personnel? captain talbert. they scrutinize it. no, sir; each could utilize these different types, but you have to scrutinize their identification. mr. hubert. do you say that you permit these persons to enter, but civilians without news identification could not enter? captain talbert. yes, sir. mr. hubert. that was in effect that day? captain talbert. i utilized it. mr. hubert. well, i mean, the order was in effect? captain talbert. it had not been revoked. mr. hubert. so, you utilized it? captain talbert. yes, sir. mr. hubert. therefore, it was determined that when you were clearing out the basement, you would clear out all persons who were not police officers or news media properly identified? captain talbert. yes, sir. mr. hubert. now, can you tell me why you did that as to the basement? captain talbert. the basement--i am using a very loose term in "basement," i meant, and did convey to lieutenant pierce, "the area," in which oswald would be--if he was transferred, and i used that term, "if he was transferred," i didn't know that he would be. although, our basement was becoming cluttered with newsmen at that time. mr. hubert. had you been told by anyone that oswald would be removed from the upper story of the building by use of the jail elevators to the jail office, and from the jail office through the jail corridor into the basement ramps. captain talbert. at that time; no, sir. mr. hubert. but---- captain talbert. but, of my own knowledge that is the only way he could be removed to a car unless he went through another floor and out on the street. that is the way you go in the normal police building area. mr. hubert. and do you mean that the normal method for handling would be one where he would be brought to the elevator to the jail office, and into the basement? captain talbert. yes, sir. mr. hubert. now, would you state just what you did by way of clearing the basement area? captain talbert. lieutenant pierce gave the assignment to sergeant dean, and in turn to sergeant putnam to carry out, and in various stages of the searching of the basement i think he checked it himself, at approximately o'clock, and i gave, by the way, the initial instructions to bring those squads in. i told them to disperse their cars, park them on the street, but disperse them. not have them grouped up, and to report to my office by at least : , and he did have that accomplished, and he gave the instructions to clear the area and search it to sergeant dean, who got sergeant putnam to assist him in it. about o'clock, i went down to check and see how he had progressed at that time. they had checked the news media, they were set up in the jail office. the jail office proper. they had cameramen, cameras, reporters on top of the booking desk, on top of everything available. the news media was taking over the jail office rather heavily, and insisted the chief had given them permission to do so. that was about . i went into the basement area and sergeant putnam gave me a lengthy rundown, step by step, on what he had done, or had done--see what i mean about my english?--and had accomplished in clearing that area, and i personally checked all the doors to the several rooms that led from the parking area to see that they were locked. mr. hubert. can you specify for the record what doors you did check? captain talbert. starting in around on the side of the ramp, janitor's room. could you hold it a minute and let me see if i can identify it? mr. hubert. all right. (discussion off the record.) mr. hubert. all right. now, i think we'll get on the record. captain talbert. shall we just say "checked the painters' room"? mr. hubert. no; i want to get more particular points than that. now, since you are about to describe your activities with reference to a definite area, i want to show you a map or chart of the basement and jail office area, and in order that we may properly use it in connection with your testimony, it is necessary for me to identify it. therefore, i am marking it, "dallas, texas, march the th, . exhibit , deposition of capt. c. e. talbert." and i am signing my name to it, and for the purposes of identification, i'll ask you to sign your name just below mine. now, you say that you, yourself made a personal check of what is shown on this exhibit , as the parking area? captain talbert. yes, sir. mr. hubert. wait. where did you begin? right in here? captain talbert. right about here, to here [indicating]. mr. hubert. now, i am marking with a numeral, " " in a circle, a point that you have indicated to me as the starting point of your inspection tour, and exactly just what did you do there? captain talbert. well, that's---- mr. hubert. and then i am going to ask you to just simply draw a line as to the general portion that you want, and whenever you stopped, we will mark the stop with no. " , and so forth", and just use this map and mark it in that way, keeping in mind that you must speak in such a way that a person who reads this later on may be able to understand the movements. now, you are starting at a point that is marked no. " " in a circle? captain talbert. i checked the door no. " ", which is the painters' room to see that it was properly locked. i proceeded to the doctor's room, and i checked it. mr. hubert. and you are marking that---- captain talbert. that is " ." mr. hubert. " " in a circle? captain talbert. i asked what has been done about the doctor's services. sergeant putnam told me he had moved that doctor out of that room and into the police locker room. mr. hubert. did you check those doors? captain talbert. checked the door to see that it was locked, and it was; yes, sir. mr. hubert. it was locked from the outside? could somebody in there have come in? captain talbert. there should have been no one in there, because there is no entrance to it. mr. hubert. did you check in the doctor's room? captain talbert. no, sir; i had no key to get in. the doctor and the porter would have the key, but i didn't have. i went to this [indicating]. this is the stairway, and this--there is another--there is another stairway coming in here [indicating]. mr. hubert. from point " "? captain talbert. actually, this is--can you stop? mr. hubert. yes. (discussion off the record.) captain talbert. i went to point " " and tried the other door which was locked externally. went to point " "---- mr. hubert. before you leave point " ," did you know whether that door was locked from the other side? captain talbert. no, sir. mr. hubert. so, that a person in the stairwell---- captain talbert. that is not the stairwell, sir, that is the second door of the first aid station. mr. hubert. oh, the second door of the first aid station? captain talbert. " " it is the second door of the first aid station. " " to the stairwell leading downstairs to a subbasement, engineroom, and leading from the first floor down to the basement area is a fire escape type--that door was secured from the outside. mr. hubert. do you know if anybody on the inside of that door could have come from the stairwell into the basement? captain talbert. yes, sir; it has--that particular door, i have since learned--i didn't know it at that time, but i have since learned that that particular door has a fire escape type latch. that bar-type latch, and i did check and find that the first floor--not the basement, but the first floor of the city hall had its interior door, both on the commerce street, main street, and the hallway locked. it is a procedure that they use over the weekend, and after p.m., in the afternoon, those doors are locked, so, anyone not in the building at the time wouldn't have had access to this unless someone unlocked it for them. mr. hubert. did you check those entrances at the first floor of the municipal building on the th? captain talbert. yes, sir. mr. hubert. how did you do that? captain talbert. as i recall, just from the--this particular time after finishing this search, i went to the sidewalk area on commerce, and into the entrance that is left open for payment of water bills and the interior door there was secure and locked. mr. hubert. so, then a person could not get into the first floor of the city hall through that door on commerce street? captain talbert. yes, sir; and in further checking around the building i went through the police courts building and in checking the main street door and then, in turn, checked the main street entrance, and it was locked. mr. hubert. main street entrance to the municipal building? captain talbert. to the municipal building. mr. hubert. and it was locked? captain talbert. and it was locked; yes, sir. mr. hubert. now, did you check the several entrances on the alleyway which runs from main to about halfway up the block and makes an l-turn and then runs to pearl? captain talbert. i did not check that entrance, because the thing is locked any time after , and on the weekends. we can't enter that way. matter of fact, we have orders not to enter that way at anytime, but sometimes we, in parking, we find it convenient to enter through that elevator and the service elevator from that entrance, and we always find it locked. we have to get a porter's attention by banging on the door to get it unlocked. mr. hubert. since we are on that subject, how would you go through that service entrance on the alleyway into the first floor of the municipal building? captain talbert. the service entrance has some side doors leading off of it. i don't know whether they are broom closets, or go into rooms or what, but into the service elevator, both sides of the elevator has operable doors. mr. hubert. that is--so call it the harwood side on the elevator, and the pearl street side. captain talbert. this is going to the central expressway over here [indicating]. mr. hubert. yes. captain talbert. and, so, the--the expressway side and the harwood street side has doors that do open. both sides of that elevator have doors that would open, and the operator could open either one of them, and you can come in from the entrance and exit from this harwood street side. enter from the expressway side and exit from the harwood street side. mr. hubert. if it were possible for a person to gain entrance through the service entrance into the first floor of the municipal building by use of the service elevator, that is to say, by walking through both of the doors of the elevator, he could then get into the stairwell of the fire escape on the first floor, could he not? captain talbert. yes, sir. mr. hubert. and by walking down to the basement level at the point---- captain talbert. designated " "? mr. hubert. designated " ," he could get into the basement area in that way. captain talbert. yes, sir; but we had an operator on the service elevator with instructions not to allow anyone to basement, and he was--allowed no one to come in. mr. hubert. do you know who that person was? captain talbert. i believe his name is mitchell, sir, to the best of my memory, is his name. mr. hubert. is he a member of the police department? captain talbert. no, sir; he is a porter, a colored porter who works within the city hall building, itself. mr. hubert. did you talk to that man? captain talbert. yes. mr. hubert. what did you tell him? captain talbert. at the time, i told him to take his elevator up on the first floor. i put the parking attendant on that elevator, or instructed the parking attendant to get on that elevator and go up to the first floor, and for the parking attendant to maintain a vigil lookout on this elevator marked nos. " " and " " here, which will be " " and " " in my route. i told him to see that no one came nearby those elevators, and told the operator of the service elevator to stay on it, and not bring anyone to the basement. mr. hubert. who was the parking attendant? captain talbert. i'm going to have to utilize his nickname, and it is rather far-afield. i should know his name. his nickname is "king," it is one we have used for quite some time. mr. hubert. is he a member of the police department? captain talbert. no, sir; he is a colored parking attendant who works for the municipal garage. mr. hubert. do you know whether he carried out your orders, captain talbert? captain talbert. to my knowledge, he did. i don't know that he did, but to my knowledge, he did. mr. hubert. you don't know to the contrary then? captain talbert. no, sir. mr. hubert. well, will you continue, then, your security search which we had left off, i think, at a point marked " "? captain talbert. i went from point " ," the elevator--the stairwell, to the elevator. the first service elevator to the building on the--not service elevator, delete that, young lady--first elevator in the building marked " ", here, but will be marked " " in this route. and that door was closed. went to the next elevator which was immediately adjacent to the first one marked " ," that door was closed, indicating the elevator was not on that floor. these are automatic elevators and the doors would be open if it was. then went to the service elevator, and had the foregoing conversation with the operator and the parking attendant. that is marked no. " ." mr. hubert. all right, just continue your search? captain talbert. from that area, or in that immediate area i had another discussion with sergeant putnam and asked him about the engineroom elevator, this elevator being on the extreme corner of the parking area on commerce street, next to the ramp. this elevator comes from the engineroom to the parking area only, and doesn't go to the first floor. anyone entering through that elevator would have to be in the engineroom, which is a subbasement, to enter into this basement. that is the only place it goes. one floor. mr. hubert. and you have marked that how? captain talbert. marked that " ." sergeant putnam had placed a reserve officer at that point to---- mr. hubert. all right. now, were any other reserve officers placed in the parking area, to your knowledge, or any other officers for that matter? captain talbert. may i mark on---- mr. hubert. surely. captain talbert. a reserve officer whose name i do not recall, was placed at a point marked " ," with the instructions not to permit anyone to enter the parking area from the elevators or stairwell. but a reserve officer was placed in the point marked " ." we--i think we have that in the deposition now. reserve officers were, at that time, brought forward when i asked if the conduits had been searched, the top of the conduits, and--the air-conditioning conduits, if they had been searched. they brought the two reserve officers forward who had the filthiest uniforms. it was quite obvious that they had been crawling around on top of them. they had searched them, and i took their condition to state that their search had been thorough and the fact that sergeants putnam and dean told me that they had covered each one, that the engines, engine compartments, the trucks as well as the vehicles parked in the basement had been searched for possible hiding places, and all of this was accomplished. after the search was accomplished, after officers were placed in the adjacent ramps on the commerce street side, on the main street side, and from the lobby of the police building marked " ," lobby of the police building into the area in front of the jail office leading into the ramp area--may i mark the places where the officers were now? the reserve officers--we are getting a--can i hold it for a minute? mr. hubert. yes. (discussion off the record.) captain talbert. all right, now, i will go ahead and mark the area where we had each---- mr. hubert. yes; you marked " ," that you had an officer there. captain talbert. i had an officer and--a reserve officer was at " ." two detectives were--lowery and beaty--beaty and lowery. " " and " " most of this period. number " " on the main street entrance to the police ramp was vaughn, r. e. vaughn, and number " " and " " were patrolman jez and patrolman patterson. mr. hubert. now, did you ever order the reserve officer at the point " " removed? captain talbert. no, sir. mr. hubert. do you know that he had been? captain talbert. no, sir; at o'clock, when the detail was made up to put traffic men on elm street, it was gathered in that area, and that man was in place at that time, at . mr. hubert. do you know that? captain talbert. if he was moved after i don't know who moved him or where he went, but the reserve officer " " was in place at that time. mr. hubert. you don't know what his name was? captain talbert. i believe brock is going to be his name, but i am not sure. mr. hubert. i think it is brock. now, then, you mentioned something about drawing off persons to patrol the intersection of elm street? captain talbert. yes, sir. mr. hubert. would you tell us something about that, please? captain talbert. we had kept as many officers out of the basement area as possible to keep from adding to the confusion of the search so we could make a systematic search, and i had retained all of the excess officers, and, as i recall, numbered about regular police officers in my office and the reserve officers, and excesses were retained in an assembly room which would be behind the jail office, and after about --let's back up and make that about : --in that vicinity, chief stevenson and chief lumpkin contacted me about the route of the proposed transfer of lee harvey oswald, and they asked--correction--i asked if we were going to use marked cars or plain cars, or if we were going to utilize sirens to stop traffic at intersections? chief stevenson said he didn't want any attention attracted to the transfer that wasn't already attracted to it, and asked if i had enough personnel to put in the intersection of elm street. first he said main street. the first route planned was main, and it was changed to elm before i could so disperse the personnel, so, actually, we utilized elm all through this. mr. hubert. just as it was? captain talbert. and they said first main and then before--after i had removed the men from my office to the ramp--not the ramp area, but the parking area and told sergeant dean and sergeant steele to place them on each intersection to stop traffic for the lights as the people making the transfer approached them. found then that it was to be elm street instead of main, that it was to be elm rather than main and the traffic could go--the reason being that they could swing off of elm into houston, directly into the prisoner loading area of the sheriff's office, and those men were placed by sergeant steele at each intersection. he didn't have enough. i instructed him that he obtain any additional men he might need from the captain who was in the area of the county jail, and he later called me by phone and told me of the traffic conditions down there, and i had an estimate, i don't recall whether from him or some other officer of the approximate number of people in that area, said around or so gathered up around the county jail; so i instructed steele to have each one of the men fall in behind or follow fairly closely behind the conveying vehicle so they would be available for any trouble that might develop around the county jail. mr. hubert. were you ever told by anyone of the plans of the transfer? captain talbert. yes. mr. hubert. that is, the ultimate plan or the---- captain talbert. well---- mr. hubert. any sequence of plans? captain talbert. after the plans had been instituted, lieutenant pierce, who i had sent to the homicide bureau previously to see if we could be of any assistance, or see if he could do anything--i didn't see him enter the basement, but as he pulled up onto the ramp--or in an effort to enter the ramp, he stopped his vehicle and called me over and asked me to get in his car. i opened the door, got in on the right-hand side of his car and he told me my--i omitted something, i believe, about this armored car, haven't i? do you want that in there? mr. hubert. we'll come back to it. captain talbert. all right. he told me that he had been instructed to take a car out and get in front of the armored car which was backed into the ramp on the commerce street side and to lead the armored car. he was to be the lead vehicle and the armored car, it would go up northbound on central to elm, west on elm and swing in off of elm on to houston street. that two plain cars would pull up behind of the armored car. the prisoner would actually be in the last plain car, and the first plain car would be full of armed homicide officers, and it would cut off on main street, west. it would leave the city hall with the cavalcade, and when it hit main street the two plain cars with the homicide officers in them with the prisoner would make a left and go west and the armored car and the lead vehicle there would continue to elm and then west. the two vehicles, or rather the two groups of vehicles would be paralleling each other. one on main, and one on elm. mr. hubert. do you know what the plans were with reference to the controlling of traffic on main street on which the prisoner was actually going to be transferred? captain talbert. no, sir; that was the first information i had is the fact that the prisoner would not be in the armored car. up until that point, i assumed he would be in the armored car. mr. hubert. but, at that point, it became apparent that he was not going to be in the armored car? captain talbert. right. mr. hubert. you had already set up a traffic-control system by having assigned men at various intervals on elm? captain talbert. elm; yes, sir. mr. hubert. but, if they were going to use main street, what control would be used for cross traffic, crossing main street? captain talbert. i have no knowledge, sir. probably normal transportation, more than likely. that is strictly my idea. mr. hubert. now, you said that you wanted to say something about the armored car. captain talbert. yes, sir; i had previously been instructed about the armored car by chief stevenson and chief lumpkin, that was at the time they asked that the officers be placed on main, and later transferred in to elm street, and at the instruction i had, was to have a man be observant, to make sure that the armored car didn't hit--didn't jam it into the overhead of the rampworks. when the armored car arrived they did back it into the commerce street side, and the driver left it up near the front of the ramp because of its weight, rather than height. although, due to its height, it couldn't have backed much farther down the ramp, but he was afraid that due to the weight of the car the--it wouldn't pull it out. the engine wouldn't have enough power to pull it out of the ramp, and so it was left in that position until after lieutenant pierce pulled the plain car that was his normal assignment car, i think equipment , although, that is irrelevant, attempted to pull it up the ramp. he couldn't get through the news media, which i would like to add to a little later. i previously had the news media in the jail office. now, during one of my inspection trips i inspected the first floor of the police and courts building from the doors for harwood and main street to see that there was no congestion, and also, to look the crowds over on commerce, and during one of my trips, or perhaps i was contacting the dispatcher--i was still conducting my regular patrol duties--the news media was moving from the jail office to the ramps to clear the jail office of them. mr. hubert. did you supervise that movement? captain talbert. no, sir; chief batchelor arrived and was told of the preparation that had been made in the basement, and i assumed looked at the office. i wasn't present, but i assume he looked in the office and asked that that news media be removed. he was talking to sergeant putnam and sergeant dean. i wasn't present, nor was lieutenant pierce there. mr. hubert. so, the news media were moved out of the jail area and where did they then go? captain talbert. i was told--and this by sergeant putnam--that they were first placed on each side of the ramp leading from main and commerce, and after the chief observed the conflict there, he had those on the harwood street side of the ramp moved across the ramp onto the main street side to keep--to make more room for vehicular traffic, and that, of course, was from sergeant putnam to me. i don't know what instigated---- mr. hubert. well, did you have occasion to observe the news media in the ramp and parking areas just prior to the shooting of oswald? captain talbert. yes, sir. mr. hubert. well, now, i think i should like to have you describe that, and in order to facilitate that, i am going to draw a general oblong figure which i am marking "area a," and i'm going to draw another general oblong figure which i am marking "area b," and i would like you to tell us for the record---- captain talbert. may i inject another---- mr. hubert. well, then, i will mark another oblong area, which i will call area c. captain talbert. all right, sir. mr. hubert. i would like you to describe that for the record--that is, what were the conditions of those areas particularly with reference to congestion of people? captain talbert. across from "area a," there was complete double line and in some instances triple line of men. that was men with cameras and those without. just the reporters who had no cameras, and in "area b," in the center of "area b" i---- mr. hubert. before you leave "area a," would you say that the men were shoulder to shoulder? captain talbert. oh, more than that. crammed in there. jammed---- mr. hubert. touching each other? captain talbert. yes, sir. mr. hubert. and about three ranks back toward main street? captain talbert. that is my impression, yes, sir, about three ranks back. mr. hubert. describe "area b," then? captain talbert. and "area b," you had a railing as indicated here by a dotted line. in front of that railing you had at least two or--probably three ranks of people all the way down to the turnoff area, which is the beginning of "area c." in the center of "area d," there were two fixed cameras. mr. hubert. television cameras? captain talbert. television cameras, yes, sir. the others were movie or still cameras and other cameramen, or strictly reporters, and in "area c," we had a fairly dense group in the immediate main street side, and two to three ranks over towards the commerce street side dividing it in half. now, immediately after lieutenant pierce informed me of the change in plans, we had to remove the people from the ramps so that he could get out on the main street side, and they immediately closed back up, and as he cleared the parking area to enter the ramp, a plain white or light-colored car pulled onto it, and pulled up behind the armored car on the commerce street side, and another plain light-colored car attempted to pull up behind him, but he wasn't up far enough, so, we had to holler at them to pull up a little further, which he did. that car was attempting to back in, and had to cut to the left in order to back up the vehicle--go to the right to get back into the jail-office entrance. that was my understanding of his efforts to do, and the news media was crowding in on him, so, that there was danger of him running over them with his vehicle, should it move. so, i was by the left front fender of that vehicle, chief batchelor was to my right, captain o. a. jones to my left and we were--and one or two--perhaps more reserve officers were there, too, pushing the news media back to let that car have room to maneuver. mr. hubert. i am going to mark on the map an area which i am marking auto and---- captain talbert. all right, sir. mr. hubert. with the understanding that the front of it indicated by an arrow is pointed toward commerce street? captain talbert. all right, sir. mr. hubert. all right. now, would you mark the circle where you were about the time of the event you have just described? captain talbert. this auto is angled in here. mr. hubert. maybe we had better angle it then. captain talbert. would you like that black pen? mr. hubert. you do it. we, are changing the blue-pen marking because captain talbert indicates that the automobile was on an angle, and he is now marking it with the black pen. would you put the word "auto," in that, please. now, draw a circle and indicate where you were standing. captain talbert. i was standing by the left front fender of the car, as i previously said. mr. hubert. [drawing a circle and indicating it number " ."] captain talbert. compared with the other, yes. and chief batchelor was standing just to the left front of the vehicle, and--i can't draw it in there with this circle correctly, but--we'll indicate that " ," capt. o. a. jones was standing to my left, or to the rear of the vehicle from me. indicating that to be " ," and at the time that vehicle was attempting to back up, we had pushed them back far enough for it to maneuver. at the time it was attempting to back up, there was a muffled report, a muffled shot and bedlam broke out in the vicinity of the jail office entry into the ramp. mr. hubert. did you see the shot? captain talbert. no, sir; i heard it, but did not see the shot and that there was my first knowledge that the prisoner was in the ramp area. mr. hubert. which way were you facing just before the shot? captain talbert. just before the shot, i was facing the crowd. i had faced, alternately, the automobile and the crowd, as we were attempting to get the thing back, and i was facing the crowd and could feel the automobile pushing against me, i was turning around and pushing back against the car, and as i made a little room, faced the crowd again and pushed them back. mr. hubert. did you see lieutenant pierce's car leave? captain talbert. no, sir; i didn't see lieutenant pierce's car leave, because of the news media across "area a." they screened it from me and also because of my preoccupation of getting these two plain cars up behind the armored vehicle. mr. hubert. do you know ruby? captain talbert. i know his face. i know his name. i know his reputation well. i don't know him personally. mr. hubert. have you ever met him before? captain talbert. yes, sir. mr. hubert. did you see him that day? captain talbert. no, sir. mr. hubert. i mean after the shot? captain talbert. after the shot, yes, sir. i'm sorry. after the shot, or after this muffled report, i went over the back of the trunk of this automobile we were trying to back in. because of these people pushing in i couldn't get--so, i went over the back trunk of it to get to the officers. i saw they were down, and the melee that was taking place, as news media was crowding around in on them, and i give them a little room, and saw both oswald and another man there who was being dragged into the jail office by the other officer. as soon as we got some room for them to drag them in, i shouted to the top of the entrance both on commerce and on main--this may not give you the perspective scope correctly, but it is about feet on--from the place of the shooting to the main street entrance. i shouted up to the entrance, "let nobody out," or "nobody out," or something to that effect, and shouted to the top past the armored car the same thing. "nobody out," and officers on this door told them, "nobody out," and then went into the jail office, and ruby was lying on the jail office floor where--with the officers at the time, attempting to handcuff him, as i recall. mr. hubert. did you recognize him at that point? captain talbert. i saw his face. that i recognized, but i didn't recognize him as "ruby." i asked a question, and may i say this in front of the young lady? i have to apologize. do you want it verbatim? mr. hubert. yes. i'm afraid so. captain talbert. i asked the question--i said, "who is this son-of-a-bitch?" and he was saying, "i'm jack ruby. everybody knows me. i'm jack ruby." at the same time another officer, or perhaps to answer that--"that's jack ruby, he operates the carousel club." mr. hubert. that was when you first recognized him? captain talbert. yes, sir. mr. hubert. as being someone that you knew? captain talbert. yes, sir. mr. hubert. you had not seen him prior to that time on that, day, to your knowledge? captain talbert. no, sir, nor for years prior to that, to my knowledge. approximately years prior to that i was having breakfast at the pancake house at the ramada inn with other officers when a man going out--we were sitting down and the man was going out and passed by and stopped. was--and he was obtrusively friendly with the other officer, one of them he knew. he knew lieutenant pierce who was with me, and lieutenant pierce introduced me to him, and from that point until the point where he was on the floor at the jail office, i don't recall having seen him, and the only reason that i remember the pancake incident, it was after the incident i was reminded of the incident by lieutenant pierce. i don't recall of having met him at any time since the old days of his operation at the silver spur. mr. hubert. did you talk to him, or see him after that? captain talbert. no, sir, i asked--at that time. i didn't know they had the gun. i didn't see the gun, so, i thought it was still in the crowd, and i asked chief batchelor for permission to put all of the news media in the police assembly room for interrogation, or somebody said, "i don't think we have the gun." one of the officers who was kneeling on ruby--literally, you couldn't hardly see ruby for this officer kneeling on him--said, "i have the gun." or perhaps he said, "graves has the gun." and then i told chief batchelor that it wouldn't be necessary to search them. i got a batch of memo pads from the jail office and gave some of them to sergeant everett, passed some out myself, told the officers to get the names, identification and location at the time of the shooting of anyone before they let them out of the basement. chief batchelor had told me to go to parkland and secure it. i immediately got in my car, got on there and told the dispatcher to gather up all of my squads and to have them to report to me code , at parkland and followed the ambulance out to parkland. mr. hubert. when did you first hear that ruby had stated that he had come down the main street ramp? captain talbert. i started my own investigation. of course, i had nothing to do with this official investigation of the incident in the basement, but it is only natural that a police officer and a police supervisor is going to instigate his own investigation. i started mine from the hospital on the phone, and that question would be impossible to answer. i may have heard it through the news media. i heard--may have heard it through another officer who had overheard what they said up in the jail. it could have been something of that sort. i couldn't tell you exactly, sir. mr. hubert. did you, in fact, conduct an independent investigation of your own? captain talbert. just a very cursory one, and during a very brief period until the official investigation got underway. mr. hubert. how long a time would that have been? captain talbert. well, maybe---- mr. hubert. put it this way, what did you do by way of instigating the investigation? captain talbert. contacted, attempted to ascertain how ruby entered the ramp, or entered the parking area rather. i contacted each of my officers who were on the entrances, and i did that while i was at the hospital. that was before the death of--or during the operation on oswald, and while we still had the hospital secured by the squads, and i contacted the supervisors who were there, and after that i was told that an official investigation would be conducted, and i dropped it. mr. hubert. would you say that it was about an hour? captain talbert. no, sir; i wouldn't estimate the time. mr. hubert. did you contact vaughn particularly? captain talbert. yes, sir; i had contacted vaughn. then contacted him the next day. i found that vaughn had let one man in onto the ramp that he hadn't included in his report the next day. this man being a city employee, a--one who vaughn thought was authorized to enter the ramp. he was chenault, the mechanic in charge of the garage, so chenault told vaughn. this was not in vaughn's report, but when vaughn was broached with it, and this was on the th--i believe that could have been the th. could you hold the---- mr. hubert. well---- captain talbert. let me just say that when vaughn was broached with having described this one entry into the ramp, that was the day after his report had been written, and i had had a chance to review all the reports, i obtained a copy of all the officers' reports and let them stand even though some of them were conflicting and deleting things--now, these were not the officers on the door, but the officers on the street. that some of them conflicted about who told them to do what. but i didn't have them change them as i normally would, because of the incident, and also because of the nature of the incident, and also because of my involvement in this. mr. hubert. isn't it a fact that vaughn had filed a report in which he failed to report that he had let chenault go down the ramp? captain talbert. yes, sir; vaughn, in his report, did not note anything about anyone coming in the ramp other than squad cars and the paddy wagon. no pedestrian traffic denoted, but when i went over it with him in the presence of chief fisher and sergeant putnam, he recalled--vaughn without our having to bring it to his attention. mr. hubert. he recalled chenault? captain talbert. i'm sorry. he recalled chenault without our having to bring it to his attention and inserted it in his verbal report, and that was after the written report, which was an oversight on his part. chenault, may i add, was immediately evicted from the basement by sergeant putnam when he saw him come down the ramp. he had him leave. chenault said that he needed to check the vehicles in the basement and to see if any of them needed to be in the garage, and sergeant putnam told him that he could do that later; to leave the ramp area at that time, and he did. mr. hubert. you mentioned the paddy wagon coming down the main street ramp. captain talbert. it is a fact that the paddy wagon did come in. however, each vehicle coming in was searched, and the paddy wagon was operated by an officer named lewis. the front seat of the paddy wagon was searched and the back of the paddy wagon was searched---- mr. hubert. by whom? captain talbert. chief fisher--before they let them into the ramp. by sergeant putnam, himself, as i recall. mr. hubert. you don't know of any record of how many paddy wagons or other vehicles came down main street ramp after vaughn was posted and until the shooting? captain talbert. i recall three in the reports. i didn't see any of it--of them, but i recall three in the reports. one being a paddy wagon. one vehicle contained two detectives. another vehicle operated by r. a. watts, with a juvenile prisoner. watts was not permitted to leave the station and the prisoner was booked, and he was retained to assist in the security. mr. hubert. now, captain talbert, i am going to mark for identification an fbi report of an interview which you made on november , , dallas, tex., march , , as exhibit , deposition of c. e. talbert, and i have signed my name to it. it is a one page document. i am marking another document consisting of two pages. placing upon it, "dallas, tex., march , , exhibit , deposition of c. e. talbert." i am signing my own name below that, all of which is on the first page of the document which is the fbi report by special agent vincent drain, dated november , . it consists of two pages and i am placing my initial on the bottom right-hand corner on the second page. i also am marking for identification another document, being a copy of a letter apparently addressed by you, capt. cecil talbert to chief curry, dated november , containing five pages. the first page i am marking as follows: "dallas, tex., march , , exhibit , deposition of capt. c. e. talbert." and i am signing my name below that now, and i am placing my initials in the lower right-hand corner of each of the following pages. i am marking on a single page document purporting to be an fbi report made by special agents logan and bramblett, dated december , , by placing upon that document the words, "dallas, tex., march , , exhibit , deposition of capt. c. e. talbert," and i have signed my name, and that document--that exhibit consists just of a single page. and finally marking upon a report of an interview which you had with special agents bramblett and logan of the fbi, on december , the following: "dallas, tex., march , , exhibit , deposition of capt. c. e. talbert," under which i am signing my name. now, that document consists of eight pages, and i am marking the seven other pages with my initials on the lower right-hand corner, on each of the pages. now, captain, i ask you if you have had a chance to study and to read these various documents? captain talbert. yes, sir. mr. hubert. let the record note, by the way, that exhibit , is the tour of the basement which has been previously identified and signed. in a moment i am going to ask you to identify and endorse your signature or initials below my signature or initials on each one of these pages of the various documents. in other words--in order to separate them, i direct your attention now to exhibit , being the fbi report of november , . as to each one of these documents, i want to ask you this: does that document correctly represent the truth and facts such as you know them? has anything been deleted? has anything been omitted? do any facts stated need any modification or change of any sort whatsoever? captain talbert. you want me to read them again; do you, sir? mr. hubert. just enough to identify them. you have already studied them. captain talbert. the first document marked---- mr. hubert. ? captain talbert. . in the last three and a half lines reading: "he said the press and other news agencies had set up for oswald's transfer from the city jail to the county jail, and that day he did not feel the police department would want to cross the news agencies," and if those were my words it wouldn't be--it is probably a matter of semantics. probably a matter of our conversation with the sheriff--after he conversed with me, i had a interview, a brief conversation with newsom concerning the fact that chief would contact him upon returning to city hall, and i do not recall that. i don't recall that. i don't refute it. i just don't recall it. shall i initial it? mr. hubert. please. if you will please sign your name under it. i understand, therefore, that you have no recollection of having said that you doubted that they were changing the plans because of any fear that they might have of crossing the press? captain talbert. sure, it would be improper, and the--even an inference of a statement like that sort would be improper for a police captain to make, and those are not my words. mr. hubert. do you think you expressed any idea of the same nature, but in other words? captain talbert. perhaps the time lapse, i can't recall, but, as i say, it may be a matter of semantics, and the way he understood it and what i had said. as i recall my conversation with him, it was rather difficult to get him back to the phone. i went through two or three people to get him to the phone, and as i recall about the conversation, it was rather brief and to the point, that i had contacted the chief and the chief would contact him when he got to the office, which would be between : and . mr. hubert. do you remember discussing any possible change of plans at all with him? captain talbert. none. i discussed no change of plans with mr. newsom. mr. hubert. did you discuss the possibility of a change of plans in the light of the new---- captain talbert. no, sir. mr. hubert. do you recall mentioning, in any way, the concept, the basic concept of that sentence, that is, that the press would be considered whatsoever in the thinking about those plans for the transfer? captain talbert. in conversing with the sheriff, and our conversation either from the sheriff or from me, and i think probably from the sheriff, the subject arose that the chief had told the press that they could arrive at the city hall at o'clock, or thereabouts, the previous day, and that was with sheriff decker. not with mr. newsom, as i recall it. now, i have--several months have passed since--and my memory becomes vague on it, so, must have been--possibly maybe a matter of semantics, maybe a matter of conversing, or conversation between newsom and the sheriff of our having had this brief conversation. now, the rest, when you ask if we had any conversation regarding a change of plan in the transferring, i answered you incorrectly and i don't recall discussing it with newsom at all. i did discuss it with sheriff decker and said that the chief would contact him. any discussion with him was very brief and that the chief would contact him about the transfer of oswald when he arrived at the office. mr. hubert. all right. have you any other comments to make concerning this document? captain talbert. no, sir. mr. hubert. would you pass then on back to , which also is an fbi statement. captain talbert. yes, sir; on this document , it indicates--and this too is a matter of semantics, i am thinking. it indicates that ruby rushed in with newsmen. that--shall i read it and finish it? mr. hubert. yes, put the part you read in quotes and end the quote and make your comments. just start off with the word "quote" where you want to start. captain talbert. "there were approximately news reporters and television cameramen that----" closing the quote. the , in my opinion, mind, which is relatively fluid, by the way anybody will estimate a crowd, " including police officers, news media and television cameramen," approximately in the basement. now, not news media alone, and--" he stated in the rush to get down into the basement in which the loading ramp was located and oswald was being brought down from the jail, it is highly possible that jack ruby may have been--walked down the ramp with the newsmen, unnoticed." that is, again, something that i couldn't--could not and would not have stated, because the newsmen were in the basement. there was no rush of newsmen into the basement. they were in the basement, and they had been in the basement some hour before oswald was brought into the basement. i don't know how this was injected into this report, but it is incorrect. mr. hubert. all right, sir. have you any other comments to make in regard to exhibit ? captain talbert. yes, "according to captain talbert, now, will fritz was in charge about removing oswald to the dallas county jail, and the attempted removal of the prisoner oswald about a.m." that was my opinion. shouldn't that be inserted there? it was my opinion that captain fritz was in charge of the removal of oswald from the city jail to the county jail. i had no prior information on it, and still have no information on it. mr. hubert. do you know what was the basis of your opinion? captain talbert. the fact that he wanted him in his office from the jail. he had taken him out of the jail on a "tempo," which is a temporary release from the jail to the cid bureau, or cid office, is the fact that he had him out of the jail at the time is what i based it on. mr. hubert. i see. all right, now, have you any further comments on ? captain talbert. no, sir. mr. hubert. i would ask you to sign your name below mine and initial these pages. have you done that? captain talbert. yes. mr. hubert. now, pass then to , and i will ask the same basic questions as to that document and its several pages. captain talbert. , is my report to the chief of police, and i have no exceptions on it. i read the report, and it is, in fact, similar to one that i had issued to the chief regarding the incident on the date of the th--november th. mr. hubert. you are initialing now each page below by initial, and you are signing your name to the first page below my signature? captain talbert. all right, sir. mr. hubert. now, will you turn then to exhibit , and address yourself to the same basic questions that i asked you originally. captain talbert. in exhibit , i have no exceptions whatsoever. mr. hubert. just sign your name below mine then. finally that brings up to exhibit . do you have any comments to make with reference to that document? captain talbert. yes, sir; on exhibit , in there--and again due to semantics or to my lack of ability to express myself, some corrections that need to be made on the first page of . it indicates "captain talbert directed lieutenant pierce to call in squads from their district assignments from different stations to take individuals from the headquarters station." the word "individuals" should be squads. mr. hubert. in other words, you weren't talking about people, but squads? captain talbert. four patrol squads. mr. hubert. which would constitute a number of people---- captain talbert. which i had already directed him to get as many -man squads as possible. i do not have a copy of the details but i could get it. mr. hubert. no, that's all right. captain talbert. the actual number--and on to the next page of the same exhibit, he added at this time that there were no reserve officers utilized in the basement of the police building, and that specific arrangements were made to inspect the vicinity of the basement. there were reserve officers used in the police building. when it says "basement,"--there were reserve officers used in the basement of the police building. this up here about the "cid," i mean the "detectives," rather than the "supervisor," that should be changed too, and "pierce's car," also. mr. hubert. now, you are speaking of the fifth page of---- captain talbert. let me initial that down there. mr. hubert. now, you were talking about something which appears on the fifth page of exhibit , in the top paragraph. will you read the sentence, starting with the word "quote" and ending with the word "quote" and then comment upon the sentence? captain talbert. "captain talbert could also recall that upon arrival of the armored car, at the commerce street exit a plain car with three detectives were sent out the main street rampway so as to be in position in front of the armored car for the purpose of escort." the word "detective" should be changed to "three supervisors," "uniformed supervisors," and those men were lieutenant pierce and--it identifies them later, but they were uniformed supervisors, and this -minute element here, now, hold---- mr. hubert. all right. (discussion off the record.) captain talbert. on page , of the same exhibit, quote---- mr. hubert. first, top paragraph? captain talbert. the top paragraph quote, "captain talbert identified the occupants of this car as being lieutenant pierce, who was at that time driving, sgt. j. a. putnam who was in the right front seat, and sgt. b. j. maxey, he was in the left rear seat. he was later informed by lieutenant pierce that it was approximately minutes prior to the shooting of oswald that they had proceeded from the basement, left the city hall." that this seems to indicate the time element from the vehicle leaving the basement, and the time that oswald was shot was indicated to me as being minutes. that was incorrect and i believe now that the indication was that it was approximately minutes from the time lieutenant pierce had left the homicide office until the time oswald was shot. mr. hubert. in other words, your recollection is now that what pierce told you later was that minutes elapsed from the time of the shooting and the time prior thereto, that he had left the cid office? captain talbert. that's it. mr. hubert. whereas, the statement that you have just read and quoted would indicate that the minutes was between the time of leaving the basement and the shooting? captain talbert. yes, sir. mr. hubert. and you think that it was a mistake, that you did not intend to convey that idea of what pierce told you? captain talbert. that's quite correct. i didn't intend to convey that idea. mr. hubert. that, in fact, is your recollection now of what lieutenant pierce told you? captain talbert. as i recall now, lieutenant pierce told me that from the time he left the basement until the time--and from the time he left the basement ramp and the time he reached the commerce street ramp, the shooting had occurred, and that time lapse would be a minute and three quarters, or minutes at the most. mr. hubert. do you recall whether pierce ever talked to you about a -minute interval? captain talbert. the -minute interval, i can't recall; no, sir. i don't recall that, but if we want to leave it in here it could have been from the time--it would have been right from the time he left the homicide office until the time of the shooting. i don't recall the -minute interval. now, at the time, it may have happened, but my memory now is--does not bring it back. mr. hubert. well, your correction really---- captain talbert. is incorrect? mr. hubert. is, in a way, incorrect, because you have corrected to refer to a -minute interval and you now tell me that you have no recollection of talking about a -minute lapse at all. captain talbert. right, sir. i am merely trying to account for the minutes there in my own---- mr. hubert. but you do not recollect pierce telling you anything about minutes at all? captain talbert. i can recall the route he took and where he stopped, but i can't recall the minutes entering into it at all, and---- mr. hubert. all right; any further corrections or observations? captain talbert. rather a minute one on page . let me get that. that is about passing out the pads. i don't--to get that identification--i don't think there is any point in answering that. on page , of the same exhibit and the first paragraph, "in regard to this particular assignment captain talbert advised that he was acting on his own behalf concerning the security measures and it wasn't on instructions by any particular superior as to what he was or was not to do. at no time prior to the transfer did talbert receive specific instructions concerning the details of the transfer, and most of this information was obtained during the course of the morning." in essence, that's true, but to understand the setup of the police function--i was the patrol commander on duty during that period and there was no necessity to give me instructions by anyone in--any superior or any of my superiors as to any incident that would require emergency action or restraintive action. the patrol function is for an emergency function, and to take care of the immediate difficulties, or immediate trouble. so, it leaves the impression in that paragraph that someone was derelict in their not informing me prior to that morning, about not informing me of the course of the transfer and the other details, when actually, it wasn't necessary. and had captain souter or captain frazier been on duty i think they would have taken the same action. this is a patrol function. mr. hubert. as i understand it, your comment is that what you did was standard operating procedure? captain talbert. standard operating patrol function. if you find trouble arising, try to offset it. mr. hubert. and that you would be expected to put into operation such standard operating procedure? captain talbert. yes. mr. hubert. and that they would understand that you would take such procedures without any particular orders? captain talbert. yes. mr. hubert. that is the essence of your---- captain talbert. the essence of what i was trying to convey. and, second paragraph, same page, it refers, "captain talbert continues to say he has never worked for jack ruby in any way whatsoever, but did hear through rumors that an individual by the name of cox was alleged to be a reserve officer, was at one time employed by jack ruby." that statement arose from having read the newspapers in which cox gave a statement to the newspaper, the newsmen, and said that he had worked for jack ruby. it was not of my knowledge. i didn't know cox. we have no police sergeant--that is supposed to have been a sergeant cox, and we have no police sergeant named cox. mr. hubert. as i understand your explanation, you do not deny that you made that statement, but the information you based the statement on you received from the newspapers and not from your own knowledge at all? captain talbert. true, sir. mr. hubert. and do you have any knowledge on the point? captain talbert. no, sir; i still don't know cox. mr. hubert. any other comments? captain talbert. and the fourth paragraph, same page. that is fourth paragraph, page , same exhibit. "in regard to any background information concerning jack ruby, captain talbert stated that he was never personally acquainted with jack ruby, and when he did see jack ruby, he could only recall that it was a familiar face. he related that he could not associate the name with the face, and was not aware that ruby was a nightclub owner in dallas * * *." i intended to convey that the face of ruby did not associate itself in my mind with nightclubs in the dallas area. although, the name of ruby associates itself with a reputation of ruby by--as a nightclub operator in dallas, quite vividly. i am quite familiar with his nightclubs by name, and associate the name with the unsavory background. mr. hubert. and that knowledge concerning ruby, had you used it prior to the events of the th? captain talbert. yes; that knowledge existed prior to the events of the th, and were police records. and other police officers conveying their information to me as to activities around his club. i--around his sister's club out on oak lawn, the vegas club and the whole name of ruby and ruby's sister and their operation of their clubs was familiar to me. mr. hubert. i think you used the word "unsavory" in connection with him? captain talbert. yes, sir; i did. can she hold this? mr. hubert. well, i'd rather---- captain talbert. you can put it in later. mr. hubert. all right. (discussion off the record.) mr. hubert. all right. do you have any other things, other comments to make with reference to it? captain talbert. not to that specific exhibit, sir. mr. hubert. all right; will you then initial---- captain talbert. i think that is the final one. mr. hubert. do you know whether it was ever considered moving ruby by use of the main street basement entrance? captain talbert. no, sir. mr. hubert. i mean moving oswald. captain talbert. no, sir; i had no information on that and---- mr. hubert. you did not hear that discussed? captain talbert. i had--i never heard any rumors to that effect. didn't hear it discussed and i never heard any rumor. mr. hubert. is there anything else that you would like to say concerning any of the matters that we have discussed, captain talbert? captain talbert. only say that with the explanation of how the basement has been secured, and my personal examination of the basement, i was of the opinion that no unauthorized person could enter that basement. mr. hubert. to what did you attribute the failure of the security? captain talbert. the final reason, or the official investigation is one that i can't refute, and i am sure you are familiar with it, that officer vaughn on the main street entrance stepped out to the curb as lieutenant pierce pulled the plain car out to put it in front of the armored car just prior to the shooting, and that is the route that ruby said he took into the station, and it--as far as any investigation has been, that is the route he took. i can't---- mr. hubert. there is no positive evidence indicating any other route? captain talbert. no, sir; and the only--hold it a minute. i want--there was an extra police officer standing--still wanted in? mr. hubert. well, all right. (discussion off the record.) mr. hubert. is there anything else you would like to add other than what we have talked about? captain talbert. my primary concern that morning was with the crowd control, the mob control. our warning had been against a possible larger group of people taking ruby away from the officers. they had told the---- mr. hubert. you mean oswald? captain talbert. i'm sorry. taking oswald away from the officers. they had been told, the person who answered the phone in the fbi office, that he wanted the information transmitted to the police department that no police officers would be injured, and, of course, that was discounted as no police officer being injured by it, but nevertheless, the crowd action was highly probable, and our primary objective was to prevent, or control, crowd action. i had a total of three gas grenade kits and projectile kits in the basement, that is my own, and the officer's riot guns, if that becomes necessary, although, the crowd can be controlled by gas if we couldn't do it with brute force, we could do it with gas. but the event that did occur, where one person dashed out of a crowd and shot a person and literally laid down, said, "here i am. i did it," in pride was rather stunning. mr. hubert. now, captain, have you been interviewed by any member of the commission other than the interview that you have had with me? captain talbert. no, sir. mr. hubert. as to the interview with me, now, there was one yesterday, i think that is about it, is that right? captain talbert. that's right. mr. hubert. they--the one with you yesterday and this one has been the only interview? captain talbert. the only interview has been with you yesterday. mr. hubert. now, is there anything that you can think of between the deposition you have given today and the interview we had, which is inconsistent with one another? captain talbert. no, sir. mr. hubert. have you, or did you provide any material or facts in any of the interviews which haven't been developed on the record? captain talbert. no, sir. mr. hubert. all right. then one final thing; is there anything else you wish to say? captain talbert. i don't think there is anything else i could say that would add materially to your investigation, sir. it is--if there were, i'd be delighted to do so. mr. hubert. if something should occur to you which has not been covered here or in any other report, i want you to feel free to contact us and tell us that you want to add what should be added. captain talbert. i would do so immediately. there is no one more concerned with finding out how ruby got in the basement to shoot oswald than myself, so, i am with you. i would love to find out how he got there. mr. hubert. i certainly thank you, and on behalf of the commission, i want to thank you for your cooperation and time. testimony of charles oliver arnett the testimony of charles oliver arnett was taken at p.m., on march , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. burt w. griffin, assistant counsel of the president's commission. robert t. davis, assistant attorney general of texas, was present. mr. griffin. i am burt griffin, and i am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel's office for the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy. the commission itself was set up under an executive order issued by president johnson and congressional resolution passed by congress. pursuant to these official acts, the commission itself has promulgated a set of rules of procedure, and under these rules of procedure i have been authorized to come here and take your sworn deposition. captain arnett, i want to explain to you a little bit of the general nature of our inquiry here. we are concerned with the assassination of president kennedy and the final death of lee harvey oswald, and we have been empowered and requested by the president to investigate all the facts and evaluate and then report this back to the president. we have asked you to come here because we believe that you may have some facts that might be pertinent, particularly to the death of lee oswald. however, we are also concerned with the entire picture in the examination, and if there is anything that you think would be helpful to us, why, of course, we want to take that. mr. hubert and myself are not working on an intensive basis on the other aspects of things, outside of ruby. so what i will do is ask you a few general things which might have some bearing upon the death of the president that would enable other people to look at it and see if you were somebody that might have information, and then we will get into the other problems. now, the mechanics by which we asked you to come here by, the general counsel of the commission sent a letter to chief curry indicating that we would like to talk to you and certain other police officers. actually, under the rules of the commission you are entitled to have a written letter from the commission, days in advance of your testimony here, but the rules also provide that you can waive this notice. before i swear you in, i would like to ask you if you are willing to waive the notice provision? mr. arnett. oh, sure. mr. griffin. now, you are also entitled to have an attorney, and i see that you don't have an attorney, and i take it that you don't want one. mr. arnett. no, sir. mr. griffin. well, do you have any questions you would like to ask me about the thing before i swear you in? mr. arnett. no. mr. griffin. will you raise your right hand? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? mr. arnett. yes, sir. mr. griffin. would you give the court reporter your full name? mr. arnett. charles oliver arnett. mr. griffin. and when were you born, mr. arnett? mr. arnett. september , . mr. griffin. and where do you live now? mr. arnett. south waverly drive, dallas, tex. mr. griffin. and you are employed with the dallas police department, is that right? mr. arnett. no. i am a captain on the reserve. mr. griffin. now, will you explain what the difference is between the reserve and the police department? mr. arnett. yes sir. reserves were established about or years ago, to assist in, say, tornadoes or, you know, something that came up that they needed more help in to be trained on that. we don't draw any pay from the dallas police department at all. mr. griffin. who does pay you? mr. arnett. nobody. mr. griffin. this is a completely voluntary thing on your part? mr. arnett. yes, sir. mr. griffin. i take it you have a regular occupation on the side? mr. arnett. yes, sir; i drive a truck. mr. griffin. and for whom do you work? mr. arnett. certain-teed products co. mr. griffin. is that here in dallas? mr. arnett. yes, sir. mr. griffin. how long have you been with them? mr. arnett. fourteen years. mr. griffin. how long have you been in the police reserve? mr. arnett. a little over years. mr. griffin. now, have you had any special training in connection with your duties in the police reserve? mr. arnett. yes, sir; went through school. mr. griffin. can you tell us a little bit about that school? mr. arnett. well, when i was going through, we went on friday night, i believe it takes - / months, if i remember right, to complete the course. mr. griffin. how long ago was this that you went through the school? mr. arnett. well, it's been a little over years now. mr. griffin. and you went every friday night? mr. arnett. yes, sir. mr. griffin. for how many hours a night? mr. arnett. two hours. mr. griffin. and as a result you became an officer in the reserve? mr. arnett. yes sir. mr. griffin. now, since you have been in the reserve, how frequently would you be called to duty? mr. arnett. well, i was a sergeant to start with. we had nights a month, i believe it was, that we were assigned to be here. you could come more times than that if you had the opportunity. then i made lieutenant, which put me over more men, and april , either or years ago, i was made captain, and i have, i believe some odd men under my company b. i am captain over company b. mr. griffin. now, after you go through the training school, do your men engage in regular training of any sort, with the police department? mr. arnett. well they ride on the squads and observe what's going on and special things like texas-oklahoma football rally. we work in that. state fair of texas. usually somebody assigned to that every night during the fair, and such as the president's parade. there were, i believe say some odd-- or , i believe it was, was assigned to that. just things like that, or what we are assigned to, and then we have our regular nights that we ride squads, that we ride with squads or whatever---- mr. griffin. i see. how often are you assigned to ride squads? mr. arnett. well, the patrolmen usually ride on their regular nights. mr. griffin. is that once a week or once every weeks? mr. arnett. now, they are assigned twice a month, but if they have the time they usually come down once a week. mr. griffin. and for how long do they ride? mr. arnett. oh, usually report around or : at night until : , o'clock. some of them ride longer than that, but that's the usual case. mr. griffin. are they in uniform at that time when they ride? mr. arnett. yes sir. mr. griffin. do they receive any pay for that? mr. arnett. no, sir. mr. griffin. now, are there any other training programs that these men undergo once they have gone through the initial -month program? mr. arnett. well, each fall they go out to the pistol range. i would say for four or five saturdays, something like that. i might be off a week or something like that, but somewhere in that neighborhood, for training out there. mr. griffin. anything else you can think of? mr. arnett. well, right offhand, i don't believe there are. mr. griffin. now, i want to mark these couple of documents here, and then we will talk about these [indicating]. mr. arnett. all right. mr. griffin. i am going to mark what is an interview that you had with two agents of the federal bureau of investigation, mr. mabey and mr. kenneth p. hughes, on december , . i am going to mark that dallas, tex., c. o. arnett, - - , exhibit . and the next document that i am going to mark is what purports to be a copy of a letter that you prepared--signed, rather, dated november , , and addressed to chief curry, having to do with the events that you observed on november , . i am going to mark that dallas, tex., c. o. arnett, - - , exhibit . now, i am going to hand these two exhibits to you, captain arnett, and i want to ask you if you have examined those. have you had a chance to read them? mr. arnett. yes, sir. mr. griffin. now, are there any additions or corrections, changes that you want to make in those, after having had a chance to read them? mr. arnett. yes, sir. mr. griffin. all right. tell us where they are and we will see if we can't do that. mr. arnett. right here. "he was stationed at the door of chief curry's office--" [indicating]. mr. griffin. all right. now, this is on exhibit , and you are referring to the language in the second paragraph on the first page. you stated that you were stationed in the door of chief curry's office. go ahead. mr. arnett. i was stationed at captain fritz' office. mr. griffin. all right. mr. arnett. see, they have got it wrong. they have got it down chief curry, when it was captain fritz' office. mr. griffin. all right. would you take my pen, then, and make the change on there, and cross out what's wrong and make an entry nearby to indicate what's correct, and then initial it? mr. arnett. just scratch out this? mr. griffin. i would say scratch out chief curry and write in captain fritz, if that's correct. mr. arnett. how do you spell fritz? mr. griffin. [spelling] f-r-i-t-z. mr. arnett. [spelling] f-r-i-t-z? mr. griffin. yes. apostrophe s, i guess. [spelling] f-r-i-t-z-'-s. mr. arnett. all right. mr. griffin. would you initial, put your initials by each one of those changes and put a date out there, - - . are there any other corrections that you think ought to be made there? mr. arnett. i don't remember any right now. mr. griffin. okay. now, did you serve in connection with the president's parade? mr. arnett. was i at the parade? mr. griffin. did you have any duties as a reserve officer in connection with president kennedy's arrival? mr. arnett. yes, sir. mr. griffin. would you tell us what those duties were? mr. arnett. i was at large, but i worked between harwood and st. paul, on main street. mr. griffin. now, when were you first told that you would have some responsibility in connection with the procession of the president through dallas? mr. arnett. well, probably the day before. i am not going to say that for sure. i could be wrong a day or two, but i think it was the day before. mr. griffin. now, did you have any men that you were responsible for supervising? mr. arnett. yes, sir. mr. griffin. how many men did you supervise on that particular day? mr. arnett. if i remember right, we had or reserves in the detail. we assigned them out of the assembly room to various locations up and down where the parade would be. mr. griffin. now, did you attend any meeting prior to november , in which you got instructions as to what you were going to do in connection with the parade? mr. arnett. no, sir; other than the assembly room that morning, when we assigned the men out. mr. griffin. now, when you arrived at the police department on the morning of november , what time was it that you got there, do you remember? mr. arnett. well, it seems like it was around o'clock. mr. griffin. now, prior to o'clock on november , had you received any instructions as to what your duties were going to be, in particular with respect to the parade? mr. arnett. other than just work in the parade is all. mr. griffin. all right. when you arrived, who did you report to? mr. arnett. to the assembly room. and right offhand, now, i can't tell you who was in charge of the regular officers. at that time i knew, and it seems to me like it was lieutenant ----. i can't recall his name right now. maybe i will think of it directly. mr. griffin. well, that's all right. was there a meeting of all the reserve officers in the assembly room? mr. arnett. yes, sir. mr. griffin. did you receive instructions at that time? mr. arnett. at that time they were each one assigned their location to work. mr. griffin. all right. mr. arnett. and not to--if they was booing the president or not--you know, getting out of line or anything, not to bother anybody, but if you saw anybody that was--acted as though they was going to bodily harm--you know, injure body, well, to notify the police officer, regular officers, you know, of what was going on. mr. griffin. now, do you recall who gave--you say this was the lieutenant that gave these instructions? mr. arnett. it was a lieutenant that assigned us out. mr. griffin. do you remember who gave you these instructions that you are talking about? mr. arnett. it seems like it was captain lawrence, but i couldn't swear to that, but it's---- mr. griffin. did captain solomon have any responsibility in that regard? mr. arnett. it may have been captain solomon that gave us that. it was a captain, i am almost certain and i feel like--i know captain solomon was in the building, in the meeting with us, and it could have been him that gave us instructions. mr. griffin. all right. the instructions that were given, did they have to do with anything other than watching the crowd, were you instructed to watch any other places besides the crowd? mr. arnett. you mean any particular buildings? mr. griffin. or just buildings generally; were you instructed to watch the windows in buildings or watch the roofs or anything like that? mr. arnett. well, i wouldn't say that anything like that in particular was named, but it was, you know, to watch and see--keep the crowd back out of the street and see that nobody, you know, rushed out there against the president's car. mr. griffin. now, had you served in connection with other parades? mr. arnett. yes. mr. griffin. any other presidential or political parades like this? mr. arnett. at one time vice president nixon came to the opening of the fair, and i was there for that. some man walked up to me and told me that he would like to present a pair of boots to the vice president. a secret service man, i suppose, was standing close enough that he heard what the man said to me, and he asked me what the man said, and i told him, and he said, "certainly he can't give him a pair of boots. get his name and address and if he wants to mail the vice president a pair of boots he can later." that's all. mr. griffin. now, the instructions that were given down in the assembly room, did they differ in any way from the instructions that would normally be given at any other parade that you worked in? mr. arnett. well, i wouldn't think so. mr. griffin. i mean at other parades was it the custom to bring you into the assembly room or---- mr. arnett. yes, sir. mr. griffin. then give instructions as to what you should do and what to watch out for? mr. arnett. that's right. mr. griffin. were any of the men under your supervision assigned to the area of the texas school book depository? mr. arnett. no, sir. mr. griffin. do you know whether there were any men at all of the reserve officers assigned to the area of the texas school book depository? mr. arnett. i don't recall any. mr. griffin. now, the fact that you don't recall; would you have been made aware of that? mr. arnett. i had a list of it. mr. griffin. you did. and did that list show the areas where they were assigned? mr. arnett. yes, sir. mr. griffin. do you still have a copy of that list? mr. arnett. captain solomon does. mr. griffin. now, on this list did it show where each particular man was to stand, was to be placed? mr. arnett. they would either be on the west side of harwood or they would be on the east side of harwood, between block so-and-so; main the same way. mr. griffin. but would it show charles o. arnett, corner of main and harwood? mr. arnett. i was working at large. mr. griffin. well, would it show, if i were working there, would it show burt w. griffin, corner of main and harwood? mr. arnett. yes, sir. mr. griffin. all right. what did you do when you heard that the president had been shot? mr. arnett. had an aunt that was to be buried at o'clock that afternoon, and the president's parade was later than it had been predicted, and when it was over with, prior to the president's arrival at the--between harwood and pacific on main, a young lady in her twenties, maybe years old, came up to me and said, "there is some kids right down there that's got a gun and some toy handcuffs and a knife." i said, "would you show them to me?" she said "well, i rather not." so i went and got earl sawyer, a police officer that was working the corner of harwood and main, and told him of it. he and i went back to the lady and he asked her. she said, "oh, it's just a toy pistol." but some little girls there with us told us where they were, about where they were standing, and we walked up to them, asked them about the gun and stuff. they said the boy with the gun had walked off, but one of them give us a pair of handcuffs and a knife, and i taken him, and sawyer went with me, and we carried him to the juvenile department up on the third floor. mr. griffin. was that a real knife that the kid had? mr. arnett. yes, sir. the gun turned out to be a blank, like they shoot--oh, at starting races or something like that, you know. when the parade was past us, one of these smaller boys that was in the group come up to me and asked me when his buddy would be turned loose. i said, "i don't know, son, but i will go up there with you to try to find out where he is." so we went up there on the third floor of the juvenile department. while i was in there someone rushed in and said, "the president has been shot." mr. griffin. who was up there with you at that time in the juvenile department; do you recall any of the officers that were there? mr. arnett. no; i believe captain martin--now, i could be wrong on the name, but he is over the juvenile department, or was. you know, the captain that they--that had the kid that we had carried up there. so i came back downstairs then and i saw two or three highway patrol, driver's license men---- mr. griffin. let me interrupt here just a second, give you a few names of people who were in that department, juvenile department, and see if you recognize any of those as having been present. was detective lowery there? mr. arnett. i don't remember him being. now, he may have been. mr. griffin. officer goolsby there? mr. arnett. i don't recall him. mr. griffin. was detective miller there? mr. arnett. well, i couldn't say, and i wouldn't say without telling you the truth. mr. griffin. yes; do you know l. d. miller, louis d. miller? mr. arnett. i don't know whether i do or not. i do know lowery, and i do know the officer---- mr. griffin. lowery and goolsby. how about the officer harrison? mr. arnett. blackie harrison? mr. griffin. blackie harrison? mr. arnett. yes, sir. mr. griffin. do you know him? mr. arnett. yes, sir. mr. griffin. was he there at the time? mr. arnett. i don't recall him being there at the time. mr. griffin. where did you go after you left the boy in the juvenile bureau? mr. arnett. that was when i carried the second boy up to see about his buddy? mr. griffin. yes. mr. arnett. i went downstairs and on the street. as i say, i saw three or four texas highway department driver's license men, and i said, "the president has been shot." and they said, "oh, arnett, what size camera was he shooting?" they thought, you know, i was joking. so i went on and got in my car. by that time squads were going everywhere. mr. griffin. was this your private car? mr. arnett. yes; went home to change clothes out of my uniform into civilian clothes, to go to my aunt's funeral. mr. griffin. now, which way did you drive? mr. arnett. i believe i went down young street. i did. i went down young street to avoid all this traffic of squads and everything going---- mr. griffin. young street in what direction? mr. arnett. west. mr. griffin. headed west? mr. arnett. yes, sir. over the houston street viaduct to oak cliff. mr. griffin. i see. does young intersect jackson any place? mr. arnett. jackson runs along beside it. mr. griffin. runs parallel to it. did you go by the greyhound bus station? mr. arnett. did i go by it? mr. griffin. yes. mr. arnett. i would have been one block south of it. mr. griffin. now, what time would you estimate that it was that you went over the houston street viaduct? mr. arnett. i would say it was shortly before o'clock, because i had to rush to get out of these clothes into other clothes to get to grapevine, which is only miles, something like that, to be there at o'clock. mr. griffin. now, when you got across the houston street viaduct, is there a point where you come to zangs boulevard? mr. arnett. yes, sir. mr. griffin. did you go to zangs? mr. arnett. i went zangs to jefferson. mr. griffin. did you get to the corner of zangs and beckley at any point in your trip out there? mr. arnett. no. beckley would have been a block east of where i was. mr. griffin. now, you drove this route, did you see anything? mr. arnett. no, sir. mr. griffin. of any importance to the commission? mr. arnett. no, sir. mr. griffin. all right. now, i take it then you went on out to the funeral, or wherever you had to go? mr. arnett. i went on home. i had my police radio on. before i arrived at my home i heard someone come in on the radio and say, "a police officer has been shot." and further, maybe a block or two, he says, "i believe he is dead." and i changed my clothes right quick and got in my car to go to grapevine. i came back down clarendon to the r. l. thornton expressway, taken r. l. thornton expressway to highway --well, it turns into stemmons expressway, you know, automatically, highway , and i was listening all the time of this transaction of the police officer. mr. griffin. were you listening on a police radio? mr. arnett. yes, sir. mr. griffin. okay. let me ask you this, this is your own private car? mr. arnett. yes, sir. mr. griffin. does the police radio broadcast over a frequency that can be heard on ordinary radio receivers? mr. arnett. no, sir. mr. griffin. what kind of special adaptation do you have to have on your receiver to pick this up? mr. arnett. they call it a converter. it's hooked in with your radio. mr. griffin. is this an fm converter; do they broadcast on an fm frequency, do you know? mr. arnett. well, seems to me like it used to be am and you could pick it up then by having your radio fixed a certain way, but they quit that. you couldn't do it no more, so you had to buy this converter to go with your radio to get it. and i listened to the move from the library over in oak cliff to the texas theater, and was listening to it when they got him, but i was at grapevine. mr. griffin. did you hear the automobiles called in from the outlying districts over your radio, when you were listening to it; did you hear any communications from the dispatcher or otherwise, calling police cars in from the outlying districts? mr. arnett. they were giving a description of the man that they had a description on, and then after the policeman was shot, tippit, well, they was giving the description of it, and they first thought he was in the library over in oak cliff. then they moved to a vacant house, then they moved to the texas theater. mr. griffin. all right. now, did you go back to the police station on friday, after you heard that tippit had been shot? mr. arnett. after the funeral, after my aunt's funeral was over, i came home, ate supper and went back in uniform, came back down here and worked on the third floor at the elevator. mr. griffin. what time would you estimate that you arrived at the third floor? mr. arnett. i would say o'clock. mr. griffin. now, at the time that you arrived at the elevator, had there been a system set up for admitting people to the third floor--let's put it this way, excluding people from the third floor? mr. arnett. that's what i started doing. mr. griffin. now, was there anybody else doing that at the elevator before you arrived, before you got there? mr. arnett. i couldn't say whether there was anybody assigned there before i got there or not, but there was a sergeant ellis, i believe, and sergeant dugger, were there with me when i was working there. mr. griffin. all right. did you replace anybody? mr. arnett. now, i am not going to say that i did or i didn't, because i couldn't tell you and be telling you the truth. mr. griffin. who did you get your instructions from? mr. arnett. i believe it was sergeant ellis, i believe it was, now. mr. griffin. is he a regular sergeant? mr. arnett. yes, sir. mr. griffin. now, did you ride on the elevator? mr. arnett. no, sir. i was in front of it, and as people got off they had to show their identification. mr. griffin. i see. did you recognize jack ruby? mr. arnett. did i recognize him? mr. griffin. yes; i mean, did you know jack ruby up to this point? mr. arnett. no, sir. mr. griffin. what kind of identification did you ask for when people got off of the elevator? mr. arnett. well, if they was a press reporter, they had a press card, showing who they were, and they were from everywhere, coming in there. you would be surprised how far they had traveled that day. you know, i was--i didn't think about people being there that day, you know, from so far up. one man told me he was asleep in chicago. they woke him up and told him the president had been killed, and he was there that night, i would say by o'clock. there was one man in particular that i remember, that came up. he said he was a postal inspector. mr. griffin. postal inspector? mr. arnett. he showed me his identification, said he would like to talk to captain fritz, that he had a key to the post office box down there that this fellow had, and he wanted to see if that key did fit it, or he had a key and he wanted to see if it would--was to that box. mr. griffin. now, how many of you were standing there at the third floor elevator, checking identification of people who got off the elevator? mr. arnett. i would say four. two elevators. mr. griffin. what did you do about people who came up, who said they came up to see somebody who was being questioned, or in connection with some other business other than being a photographer or---- mr. arnett. if they didn't have an identification of pressmen or ranger or lawmen of some kind, they were turned back. there were two spanish men came up there who wanted to talk to some officer about a ticket, and we notified whatever officer they wanted to talk to about it, and told him to go downstairs and see them. mr. griffin. suppose somebody had showed you a justice of the peace card, would you have admitted him? mr. arnett. a justice of the peace? mr. griffin. suppose somebody had showed you a card that said he was an honorary deputy sheriff, or a courtesy card, some of the law enforcement agents give out, are you familiar with those? mr. arnett. yes. mr. griffin. suppose someone had showed you one of those, would you have let him in? mr. arnett. i wouldn't let anybody in who didn't have proper identification, without notifying one of these regular officers standing there. mr. griffin. would you have considered this a proper identification? mr. arnett. i don't remember having that come up. now, there were two or three rangers there. one of them from gainesville, tex. i talked to him a little bit and the captain of the rangers was there. i don't know where he was from. he might have been from dallas. mr. griffin. did you have any lawyers come up? mr. arnett. lawyers? mr. griffin. yes. mr. arnett. i don't remember any. mr. griffin. did you have any newspaper people come up who didn't show you press cards who appeared to be newspaper people from the way they conducted themselves? mr. arnett. two or three different times a news reporter would come up and show a press card and say, "i have got a friend with me that's just with me". i said he would just have to wait downstairs, and they did. mr. griffin. well, you know, a number of police officers have stated that they saw jack ruby up on the third floor on friday evening. how do you imagine that ruby could have got by? mr. arnett. i don't know. after i was there that afternoon or that night, i would say. i wasn't in the afternoon, because i was at that funeral, but i don't believe jack ruby got up there after that time of night. i didn't see jack ruby the entire time of that thing, until he was in front of me in the basement, the th. mr. griffin. would you have recognized him? mr. arnett. no, sir. mr. griffin. now, did you remain at the elevator doors all of the time you were on duty on friday? mr. arnett. friday night? mr. griffin. yes. mr. arnett. i would say i was there until around o'clock that night. mr. griffin. after o'clock what did you do? mr. arnett. i went home. mr. griffin. did anybody replace you on those doors? mr. arnett. yes, sir. mr. griffin. do you recall who that was? mr. arnett. no, sir; i don't. mr. griffin. did you give him any instructions as to what he was to do in admitting people? mr. arnett. yes, sir. mr. griffin. now, did you come in on saturday? mr. arnett. yes, sir. mr. griffin. what time did you come in on saturday? mr. arnett. around o'clock. mr. griffin. and how late did you stay? mr. arnett. until about . mr. griffin. did you do the same sort of thing on saturday? mr. arnett. that afternoon i didn't work in front of the elevators, but i did work over where the stairways are. there is a stairway that you can walk down. mr. griffin. yes. mr. arnett. i worked there with an officer. i believe his initials is l. m. baker. mr. griffin. now, there came a time saturday night when you were stationed by captain fritz' office? mr. arnett. that's right. mr. griffin. about what time was that? mr. arnett. i would say around or o'clock that night. mr. griffin. now, did you notice while you were there whether any newspaper people were going in to use the telephone in the homicide office? mr. arnett. no, sir; i didn't. mr. griffin. you say you were stationed outside captain fritz' door. do you mean that you were inside the homicide office? mr. arnett. no; i was outside. mr. griffin. in other words, you were stationed outside of the homicide door? mr. arnett. in the hallway. mr. griffin. now, that wasn't really the door to captain fritz' office? mr. arnett. no; his office is back inside, but you had to go through that door to get to his office. mr. griffin. i wonder if it wouldn't be clearer if we even edited this other, instead of captain fritz, if we crossed that out and said to the door to the homicide office? mr. arnett. all right. go ahead and write it in if you want to. mr. griffin. all right. let me mark it [indicating]. mr. arnett. that would sound more reasonable, sensible, anyway. mr. griffin. now, would you initial those two places and date them where i marked them [indicating]? mr. arnett. yes, sir. we got the date, is that all right? mr. griffin. that's okay. all right. now, did you see newspapermen going in to use the telephone in other offices besides the homicide bureau? mr. arnett. well, really i just tell you the truth, there were so many people in there and out--what i mean, there was a crowd there, and as far as seeing what was going on in other offices, i couldn't tell you. mr. griffin. now, did there come a time on saturday night when you received some instructions from one of the other officers? mr. arnett. did there? mr. griffin. yes. mr. arnett. yes, sir. mr. griffin. did you call lieutenant merrell sometime that night? mr. arnett. yes, sir. mr. griffin. now, about what time was that? mr. arnett. it seemed to me like it was around o'clock. mr. griffin. all right. and what did lieutenant merrell tell you? mr. arnett. that captain solomon had called him and asked to get a few reserves down there the next morning to help with the transfer. mr. griffin. all right. now, where was this told to you? mr. arnett. it was told to me there at the door, to call lieutenant merrell. i am trying to think where i went and called from. mr. griffin. somebody came up to you at the homicide office---- mr. arnett. that's right. mr. griffin. and said, "call lieutenant merrell"? mr. arnett. that's right. mr. griffin. then you went and made a telephone call? mr. arnett. i believe i went in chief curry's--not in his office, now, but into the room where all the secretaries and everything are, and used the telephone. i am almost certain i did. mr. griffin. did you call merrell some place outside of the building or---- mr. arnett. he was at home. mr. griffin. he was at home. is he a regular officer? mr. arnett. he is a reserve lieutenant. mr. griffin. he is a reserve lieutenant? mr. arnett. he is my assistant. mr. griffin. then merrell told you that you would have to have some men? mr. arnett. that they wanted some men, yes, sir. mr. griffin. so somebody apparently had called merrell to tell him that, is that right? mr. arnett. captain solomon, i believe. mr. griffin. captain solomon had called merrell. now, did you attempt to locate some reserves that night? mr. arnett. yes, sir. mr. griffin. and did you attempt to locate reserves that were already in the police department building? mr. arnett. i called lieutenant mccoy, who was on duty, riding in a squad car, put out a call for him to call me at the office, and he did, and i gave him those instructions, to call some of his men the next morning to be there. mr. griffin. and what time did you tell lieutenant mccoy that the men should be there? mr. arnett. nine o'clock. mr. griffin. now, at this point did you have any understanding as to generally when oswald would be moved; did you have any idea generally when he would be moved? mr. arnett. chief curry told the newsmen that if they were back by o'clock they would be plenty early. mr. griffin. did you hear chief curry tell them that? mr. arnett. yes, sir. mr. griffin. other than what you heard chief curry say, did you receive any other information? mr. arnett. of what time it would be? mr. griffin. yes. mr. arnett. no, sir. mr. griffin. now, did you have your conversations with lieutenant merrell and lieutenant mccoy before or after chief curry made the announcement to the press? mr. arnett. i would say it was probably a few minutes before i heard him say that. i could be wrong about it. i am trying to, you know, think whether it was or wasn't, but i am not certain about it. mr. griffin. now, the call that you issued to lieutenant mccoy, would that have gone through the dispatcher's office? mr. arnett. for him to call me would--yes. mr. griffin. and they would have made a record of that, isn't that right? mr. arnett. it would have been recorded, but our conversation wouldn't have been. mr. griffin. if we were to look at that record, would that be the most accurate reflection of the approximate time that you had information concerning the transfer of oswald; in other words, is that the most accurate---- mr. arnett. it would be recorded all right. mr. griffin. my question is, we want to try to find out just exactly how soon people would have known that something was going to happen. now, is that record, that would be in the dispatcher's office the most accurate or earliest record that would have been made of anything you did in connection with the information you received about the move, that oswald was going to be moved the next day? mr. arnett. well, it would show--you would have to first check and see what squad mccoy was riding, to get the number. mr. griffin. yes. mr. arnett. you see? mr. griffin. it wouldn't go out to mccoy specifically? mr. arnett. no; it would go to the squad he was riding with. his name wouldn't have been on there. mr. griffin. but now, would the dispatcher's statement over the radio, would that say number such-and-such call number such-and-such, or would it say number such-and-such call captain arnett? mr. arnett. no; i believe it would have said call the office. i don't believe our names would have been mentioned on the air. mr. griffin. all right. now, would there be a record of some kind that we could use to find out what number designated lieutenant mccoy? mr. arnett. well, there would be a work sheet, assignment sheet, of what squad he was riding in that night, the number of it. for instance, we will just say or or--i don't know what number it was now, but i am just saying those numbers, that it's possible he could have been in. mr. griffin. well now, do you know how long records of that sort are retained by the police department? mr. arnett. i suppose they are kept for a long time. mr. griffin. now, what time was it that you arrived at the police and courts building the next day? mr. arnett. nine o'clock a.m. mr. griffin. all right. how many men would you estimate that you contacted about this between the time that you got the word from lieutenant merrell and the time you arrived at o'clock? mr. arnett. if i remember right, i called lieutenant merrell--i mean lieutenant mccoy, and i saw lieutenant nicholson and told him to call some of his men. if i remember right, though, those are the only two people i contacted on it. mr. griffin. now, would lieutenant merrell have had occasion to contact any other officers, to give instructions to men? mr. arnett. he could have called some of the sergeants and told them. mr. griffin. i see. would there have been any other captains who would have given instructions similar to ones you gave? mr. arnett. well, there are three more captains, but so far as i know there wasn't any contacted, unless it was captain crump and i didn't contact him. mr. griffin. all right. how many men did you attempt to get in that next morning? mr. arnett. i told them to have or to men. mr. griffin. i see. each; each lieutenant? mr. arnett. no; each one just get two or three men. we had . mr. griffin. had all together? mr. arnett. uh, huh. mr. griffin. now, do you remember where you parked your car before you came in the building on sunday morning? mr. arnett. i either put it in the parking station west of the city hall on commerce street or i parked it on the side street of commerce. mr. griffin. do you remember entering the building? mr. arnett. do i remember entering the building? mr. griffin. yes. mr. arnett. yes, sir. mr. griffin. do you remember what entrance you came through? mr. arnett. yes, sir. down in the basement, from commerce street. mr. griffin. now, as you walked down that commerce street entrance, at that time were there any tv cables strung through there? mr. arnett. the cameras were set up on the commerce side, out there, and i do believe that there were cables running through the door. mr. griffin. now, there is one door there that enters into the hallway that runs to the records room, as you get down the bottom of the steps from commerce street, you open up the door and you can go down a hallway toward the records room? mr. arnett. down that way [indicating]. mr. griffin. going north? mr. arnett. uh, huh. mr. griffin. now, there are also in there, at the bottom of those steps from the street, two other doors; do you recall that there are two other doors there? mr. arnett. they would be on harwood street, then? mr. griffin. no. mr. arnett. you mean there are two more doors on commerce street? mr. griffin. yes. one of them leads to the engine room. are you familiar with that door? mr. arnett. no, sir. mr. griffin. another one leads into the subbasement. are you familiar with that door? mr. arnett. now, that's the one i am talking about i came in. mr. griffin. you went down into the subbasement? mr. arnett. see here, this is commerce street, and you walk down a flight of steps, and there is a door, and you are going right towards the records building. mr. griffin. all right. now, there is a subbasement to that building? mr. arnett. no; i misunderstand what you are talking about. mr. griffin. are you familiar with the subbasement in the--where the police officers' locker room is? mr. arnett. yes. oh, yes. if that's what you are talking about. mr. griffin. all right. were you aware of the fact that there was a door that led up from the subbasement right up under the stairs, on the commerce street side? mr. arnett. i don't know whether i understand what you mean or not. mr. griffin. you walk off of the sidewalk on commerce street---- mr. arnett. and go down in the basement. mr. griffin. and go down in the basement, you get down there in the basement and there is a door that goes into the hallway that runs up to the records room? mr. arnett. yes, sir. mr. griffin. now, there are two other doors in that area. one of them is, if i am not mistaken, off to the right, as you face the hallway, and that goes into the engine room; and there is another area--door, rather, sort of at your back, as you look down that hallway, and that goes down in the subbasement. were you aware of that? mr. arnett. no. mr. griffin. so you would have no recollection of whether any of the tv wires were strung any place except through the hallway to the records room? mr. arnett. no; i sure wouldn't. mr. griffin. okay. now, when you entered there, where did you go--and got inside the building? mr. arnett. i saw lieutenant wiggins, and he asked me if i could replace one of his regular men that was out there behind the tv cameras that--in other words, this is the basement [indicating]. mr. griffin. well, i think i can help you out here. here is a diagram of the basement, and here is the jail office and here is the parking area, here is the ramp from main street, here is the ramp going up to commerce street [indicating]. mr. arnett. we have got it turned right around to me. mr. griffin. well, whichever way is easiest for you. all right. now, this is coming down from main. that's main [indicating]. mr. arnett. this is commerce going out? mr. griffin. that's right. mr. arnett. all right. the tv cameras were set up right in here. they wanted to keep this open here. they didn't want any cars parking in here [indicating]. mr. griffin. let me draw two tv cameras; is that about where they were placed, where i have got them there [indicating]? mr. arnett. yes, sir. mr. griffin. now, behind the tv cameras---- mr. arnett. it's wide enough for two automobiles to park. mr. griffin. all right. was there a man stationed behind those two tv cameras? mr. arnett. there was a regular and they needed him out there, so i put a reserve officer out there. mr. griffin. who was that reserve officer that you put there? mr. arnett. worley. mr. griffin. all right. now. i am going to put an x--well, you put an x on the map where you think worley was, and write his name in there, if you will, please. mr. arnett. [spelling] w-o---- mr. griffin. [spelling] w-o-r-l-e-y. now, what's your best estimate of what time it was that you put worley in there? mr. arnett. shortly after o'clock. mr. griffin. you want to say whatever it was, : , whatever you think it was? mr. arnett. well, this may not be exact on the minute, but it will be within minutes or so [indicating]. mr. griffin. all right. okay. mr. arnett. i am going to put : [indicating]. mr. griffin. all right. mr. arnett. because i did it as quick as i could after i was asked to. mr. griffin. all right. now, what did you do after you placed worley at that spot? mr. arnett. i went into the assembly room, and there were a few men in there. i walked back outside and i believe that i talked to some captain that needed five men down at the elm-houston street viaduct, and i went back in and asked them if they could send five men down there and they said yes. they assigned five men to go down there and they were sent down there in a squad car. mr. griffin. what did you do after that? mr. arnett. after that, i got some more men out of the assembly room. they were just coming in, you know, and sergeant dean and sergeant putnam, we searched the basement. mr. griffin. all right. now, did you accompany sergeant dean? mr. arnett. yes, sir. mr. griffin. did you accompany him all the way around? mr. arnett. in this area, i did [indicating]. mr. griffin. that's the area, sort of the main street portion? mr. arnett. that's it (indicating). mr. griffin. did you go with sergeant dean to the area that's marked on the map stairs up, behind elevators no. and no. . mr. arnett. did i go up the stairs? mr. griffin. no. did you go to that area with him? mr. arnett. well, this is the area i covered with him, from here, all this right in here [indicating]. mr. griffin. the reporter can't see that, but you are indicating--we have to get this down in words, so that the members of the commission, chief justice warren and so forth will understand what we are talking about here. mr. arnett. yes. mr. griffin. you are indicating that you searched with sergeant dean that portion of the garage which includes the elevators no. and no. and the doorway to the stair up, correct? mr. arnett. right. mr. griffin. now, when you got to those elevators, what did you and sergeant dean do? mr. arnett. as we searched them out, we placed men in this area as we searched it out, there was a regular officer stationed here [indicating]. mr. griffin. regular officer stationed---- mr. arnett. at the elevators [indicating]. mr. griffin. you want to put on the map where that regular officer was, and put an x there? mr. arnett. it was here in front of these elevators [indicating]. mr. griffin. do you want to write regular officer--do you know his name? mr. arnett. no, sir; i don't. [spelling] r-e---- mr. griffin. regular, yes. all right. now, were these elevators operating, these elevators no. and no. , were they in operation? mr. arnett. i couldn't say whether they were or not. they wasn't working at the time i was there. mr. griffin. all right. you didn't see any boys, negro boys in there? mr. arnett. no. mr. griffin. is there a door at this entranceway to the stairs up? mr. arnett. did you say are there a door there? mr. griffin. is there a door there; do you remember if there is a door there? mr. arnett. there is a door here that goes into this [indicating]. mr. griffin. into the first aid station? mr. arnett. yes, sir. but now, i couldn't say whether there are or not. mr. griffin. all right. do you recall what investigation was made in the area of that doorway there, toward the stairs up? what check you and sergeant dean made? mr. arnett. well, they probably were finishing their investigation here and we were back over here. there is a building extends out from the walls, and it doesn't go completely back against this ramp. there is room for a man to walk in there, and i went and got a flashlight and---- mr. griffin. now, i want to talk about this area right here. do you recall whether you and sergeant dean went over to that doorway that leads to the stairs up? mr. arnett. i didn't. mr. griffin. you didn't go? mr. arnett. no, sir. mr. griffin. right. did you go to that area where the first-aid station is? mr. arnett. i didn't make that part of the search there. we started and came around this way, searched all these cars down through here, and this building back here that i am telling you about, that doesn't extend against the wall. i went and got a flashlight and sergeant ---- i will think of his name in a minute, reserve. his name starts with a h. mr. griffin. well, that's okay. his name isn't necessary. you went back there searched the---- mr. arnett. we taken a flashlight in there and i held the flashlight for him, and he got up in there and i give him the flashlight, and he taken the flashlight and walked all back in here. there was room for a man to walk in there [indicating]. mr. griffin. the area you are indicating is an area behind the jail office---- mr. arnett. no; it's not behind it. mr. griffin. well, here is the jail office [indicating]. mr. arnett. well, the one i am talking about, here is the ramp, see, and the one i am talking about is like this, doesn't go completely against the ramp. there is room for a man to walk in behind there [indicating]. mr. griffin. now, other than this northern portion of the basement, did you search any other area with sergeant dean? mr. arnett. no, sir. i stayed right in here. some more reserves came in [indicating]. mr. griffin. off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. griffin. could you tell me where i was? (the record was here read by the reporter.) mr. griffin. after you searched the basement, where did you go? mr. arnett. after i searched this portion of the basement [indicating]? mr. griffin. yes. mr. arnett. i stayed right here. that's where the cars come in and out [indicating]. mr. griffin. now, would you place an a where you stationed yourself after the search of the basement, and would you put a circle around that; would you write around that, after search of basement [indicating]? mr. arnett. [spelling] b-a-s-p---- mr. griffin. [spelling] b-a-s-e-m-e-n-t. now, captain, how long did you remain there at that position? mr. arnett. oh, it seems like or minutes. mr. griffin. and then where did you go? mr. arnett. j. c. hunt took my place, another reserve officer. mr. griffin. replaced by j. c. hunt? mr. arnett. hunt. mr. griffin. after about minutes. now, then where did you go? mr. arnett. i had sent some men outside---- mr. griffin. no; where did you go? mr. arnett. i went to different ones that were, you know, around in here, of the reserves [indicating]. mr. griffin. you circulated in the basement? mr. arnett. in the basement. mr. griffin. and did you make assignments? mr. arnett. yes, sir. mr. griffin. what assignments did you make? mr. arnett. i sent sergeant cox and sergeant ---- this little sergeant that i was trying to name while ago--could i call the man and ask him that boy's name? mr. griffin. that's not really important. mr. arnett. it isn't? mr. griffin. no; did you assign people outside of the building? mr. arnett. yes, sir. mr. griffin. did you make assignments to the various intersections? mr. arnett. to keep people back. they were over here on the commerce south-side street. mr. griffin. yes, sir. mr. arnett. keep people back off, on the sidewalk, and not let them on the street [indicating]. mr. griffin. you sent all your men to commerce? mr. arnett. no; not all of them. i sent three men up there at that particular time. mr. griffin. where did you send your other men? mr. arnett. well, earlier, before this, i sent one to commerce and pearl to work a signal light that had gone out of order. mr. griffin. did you ever assign anybody to main and pearl? mr. arnett. main and pearl? mr. griffin. yes, sir. mr. arnett. i don't believe so. mr. griffin. did you ever assign anybody to elm and pearl? mr. arnett. not before the shooting. mr. griffin. all right. did you make any assignments on elm street? mr. arnett. no, sir. mr. griffin. all right. did you make any assignment on main street? mr. arnett. i don't remember of any. i did have a man in front of the credit building--what do they call it, the employees credit association or credit union or something another. i did have a man up on the ramp of it. that's out on commerce street. mr. griffin. did you assign mr. newman to a place in the basement? mr. arnett. i didn't make the assignment myself. mr. griffin. did you leave the basement at any time after this particular period that we are talking about, when you made these assignments, did you leave the basement area? mr. arnett. i don't believe so. not until after the shooting. mr. griffin. all right. while you were in the basement, were you in the garage and ramp area the entire time? mr. arnett. after i left this particular spot here [indicating]? mr. griffin. yes; where we marked the a? mr. arnett. i was in this area right in here, and about : i took my stand right in here [indicating]. mr. griffin. all right. now, you spent your entire time then in the---- mr. arnett. basement. mr. griffin. area between the entrance to the garage at the bottom of the commerce street ramp and the portion where the main street ramp narrows at the bottom, or widens out at the bottom? mr. arnett. [no response.] mr. griffin. now, would you put a mark on the map where you were, where you stationed yourself at about : ? mr. arnett. let's see if we understand each other here on this. is this the office where they come out of the jail [indicating]? mr. griffin. yes, it is. mr. arnett. and this comes out so far and then this is the ramp [indicating]? mr. griffin. yes, it is. mr. arnett. all right. i was right along in here then [indicating]. mr. griffin. would you put an a there, also? mr. arnett. okay [indicating]. mr. griffin. and put a circle around that. mr. arnett. all right [indicating]. mr. griffin. now, would you mark the time that you think you first arrived there? mr. arnett. i would say : . mr. griffin. all right. how do you fix that time : ? mr. arnett. i believe i looked at my watch. mr. griffin. did you write up a report on this on november ? mr. arnett. did i write it up? mr. griffin. yes. mr. arnett. i made the statement. mr. griffin. did you write a letter to chief curry? mr. arnett. well, that's the letter [indicating]. mr. griffin. now, you didn't mention in that letter anything about : . was the first time that you thought about : when you were interviewed by the fbi agents on december ? mr. arnett. you mean was that the first time i thought about it being : when i went there? mr. griffin. yes. mr. arnett. well, no; i wouldn't say it was the first time i thought about it. it might have been that i didn't think about it when i was writing that letter. mr. griffin. now, captain, if you were to place the time that you stationed yourself here, in terms of how much before--well, in terms of the time that the armored car was in the ramp, did you place yourself before or---- mr. arnett. it was here before i went there. mr. griffin. all right. this was after the armored car arrived? mr. arnett. yes, sir. mr. griffin. and how long before lee oswald was brought down? mr. arnett. after i placed myself over there? mr. griffin. yes. mr. arnett. well, around minutes. mr. griffin. do you know what time oswald was brought down? mr. arnett. i know what time the ambulance was called. mr. griffin. what time was that? mr. arnett. : . mr. griffin. when you stationed yourself at that point, were the floodlights from the tv cameras on? mr. arnett. were they on? mr. griffin. yes. mr. arnett. if i remember right, they had been on all the time. mr. griffin. they had been on all the time? mr. arnett. they wasn't alive all the time. mr. griffin. you mean the cameras weren't alive? mr. arnett. no. mr. griffin. at the time you searched the basement, were the floodlights on from those tv cameras? mr. arnett. well now, whether they were on or not, i don't know. i believe the machine was lighted up. now, whether that's what you call---- mr. griffin. no; i mean the floodlights. mr. arnett. well, i am not going to say either way on that, because i am not going to tell you anything i don't think is the truth. mr. griffin. are you sure the floodlights were on when you stationed yourself at the point that we have marked as point a at the bottom of the ramp? mr. arnett. i would say lights were on. now, whether they were floodlights or not, i couldn't tell you. i don't know whether you say just a light fitting there was a floodlight or the lights in the camera or---- mr. griffin. no; i am talking about the lights they use to illuminate the picture they are going to take, throw out on the subject? mr. arnett. i will say the cameras had a light in them. i will say that. now, whether you call them floodlights or not, i don't know. now, they tell me that they can be on and not be taking pictures unless there is a red light burning. now, whether that's true or not, i don't know. mr. griffin. all right. over where these tv cameras are, were there some lights placed in association with those cameras? mr. arnett. all i can remember of, and i am trying to tell you the truth---- mr. griffin. yes. mr. arnett. is that the light was on in the camera. you know what i mean, that [indicating] was burning. mr. griffin. i don't know if you have taken home movies or anything like that, or just had your picture taken in a photographer's studio, often they beam a lot of lights down? mr. arnett. i know what you are talking about there. mr. griffin. were there any lights like that over by these tv cameras? mr. arnett. i don't remember any like that, but they had to be for it to be alive, i guess, but i don't remember them being on when this happened. mr. griffin. before oswald came out you were where we put this a at the bottom of the ramp, when you had occasion to look off into the garage area, was it possible to distinguish objects, or distinguish people or cars in there? mr. arnett. there was a car came out the ramp, after we got in line, and went out the ramp on north main, up the ramp, out on north main. we broke up---- mr. griffin. i am going to ask you this simple question, as you looked out over in there, could you see cars or people or anything over behind those tv cameras; could you see anything beyond those tv cameras? mr. arnett. well, i saw this car that was coming out. now, that was before lee oswald was brought down. mr. griffin. but did you see that car before it came out of the garage? mr. arnett. i saw it coming out of the ramp. mr. griffin. all right. now, did you see it before it came to the ramp? mr. arnett. i don't believe i did. mr. griffin. all right. so do you have any recollection as to whether you could see objects in that area? mr. arnett. no, sir; i don't, i sure don't. mr. griffin. now, you watched that car come out of the garage? mr. arnett. uh huh. mr. griffin. now, where did you watch it go? mr. arnett. it went out the main street entrance, up the ramp. mr. griffin. and did you see it get to the top of the ramp? mr. arnett. i didn't look at it as it entered the top of the ramp. we were getting back into position, but we did have to break up, because we were all the way across the ramp, and we had to break up for it to go out, but you know how you would do, you would back up against the wall or something out of the way, for it to go by. mr. griffin. now, you say you had to break up. was there a line formed across there before the car came out? mr. arnett. well, we were standing just, you know, side of one another all the way across there. mr. griffin. was that sam pierce's car? mr. arnett. they say it was. mr. griffin. they say it was. do you remember how many people were in that car? mr. arnett. no, sir. mr. griffin. was this the last car that came out of the garage before lee oswald was shot? mr. arnett. there was one come out and backed up in position. mr. griffin. yes; but was that the last one that went up the main street ramp? mr. arnett. i said there was two cars to start with, and some of them said there wasn't but one, and i said i guess there was just one, but i thought at that time i remembered two cars going out, but i am not going to swear that there were, because i could be wrong about that. mr. griffin. i know that, but i want to know just what you remember and whatever your recollection is. then we will try to see how good it really is. but what do you think you saw when this car--you say you think you saw two cars go up the ramp? mr. arnett. i think so. that's my honest opinion about it. mr. griffin. that's what i want. now, when you saw that first car go up the ramp, how long would you say after the first car went up did the second car go up? mr. arnett. well, it wasn't very long. mr. griffin. all right. now, did you watch that first car go up the ramp? mr. arnett. no, sir; i did not. mr. griffin. now, as you were standing here where we have marked the a and as you looked over toward the armored car, did you have occasion to look over at that armored car? mr. arnett. it was straight in front of me. mr. griffin. that was up near the top of the commerce street ramp, wasn't it? mr. arnett. yes, sir; or just inside. i don't believe it was all the way under the shed. mr. griffin. did you see chief batchelor up there? mr. arnett. yes, sir. mr. griffin. did you see captain butler up there? mr. arnett. captain butler? mr. griffin. yes, sir. mr. arnett. i don't remember captain butler. mr. griffin. how about sergeant dean, did you see him up in that area? mr. arnett. sergeant dean. i believe i did. there was a bottle fell out of it. mr. griffin. now, did you see the bottle fall out? mr. arnett. yes, sir. mr. griffin. could you actually see the bottle from where you were standing? mr. arnett. yes, sir. mr. griffin. now, when you had occasion to look up the main street ramp---- mr. arnett. well now, my back was to the main street ramp. mr. griffin. not the entire time; there were times when you looked up that ramp too, wasn't there? you were down there for quite awhile? mr. arnett. well, i don't remember just, you know, turning around and looking back up that way. mr. griffin. do you remember whether or not there was an officer stationed up there? mr. arnett. yes, sir; there was. mr. griffin. did you ever see him up there? mr. arnett. yes, sir. mr. griffin. all right. did you know who he was? mr. arnett. no, sir; he was a regular officer, though. mr. griffin. how did you know that? mr. arnett. well, a regular officer patrolman has a green patch on his shoulder up here. a reserve officer has a white patch; a radio accident investigator has a red patch. i believe traffic wears a brown. he was a regular patrolman. mr. griffin. now, did you see him before he got up to the top of that ramp? mr. arnett. did i see him before he got up there? mr. griffin. yes. mr. arnett. you mean did i see him going up there? now, i may have seen him in the basement, before he was sent up there. i don't know about that. mr. griffin. would you have remembered him, though; do you remember seeing him in the basement before he was sent up? mr. arnett. not that i recall; no sir. mr. griffin. do you remember seeing him walk up the ramp? mr. arnett. no, sir. mr. griffin. so from where you were standing, i take it you could see the green patch on his---- mr. arnett. uh-huh. mr. griffin. coat. and you wear glasses, don't you? mr. arnett. not all the time. mr. griffin. were you wearing glasses that time? mr. arnett. no, sir; i use them mostly to read with or some work like this [indicating]. mr. griffin. now, is your eyesight without glasses - ? mr. arnett. no, sir; if they was i wouldn't be wearing glasses. mr. griffin. but you still tell me---- mr. arnett. i see off at a distance good, but i can't see to read a newspaper or something, a fine print or something close to me, but off at a distance--i drive without glasses. mr. griffin. you and i are sitting here maybe or feet away. take off your glasses. do you have any trouble seeing me [indicating]? mr. arnett. no, sir; not a bit. where i have my trouble is fine print and something like that [indicating]. mr. griffin. take your glasses off a second. mr. arnett. okay [complying]. mr. griffin. i am going to hold up something here, and do you see a colored spot on there [indicating]? mr. arnett. i see a red one. mr. griffin. and i am holding this dictaphone package, about feet away from you, aren't i [indicating]? mr. arnett. i would say something like that. mr. griffin. and how many red spots do you see on there? mr. arnett. i only see one. mr. griffin. one big one? mr. arnett. well---- mr. griffin. or one blurred one? mr. arnett. i don't know what you call a big one. it's about like my little finger, end of it [indicating]. mr. griffin. can you tell what sort of shape it is? mr. arnett. yes, sir [indicating]. mr. griffin. does it look like a triangle or an arrow? mr. arnett. it looks like it goes up to a point and comes down to a point and goes straight across the bottom [indicating]. mr. griffin. let me state for the record that is pretty good for a man born in . this thing that i am holding up is a red arrow which appears on the back of a dictaphone belt holder, and this arrow, the stem part of the arrow is not more than a quarter of an inch long. the pointed part of the arrow is unquestionably the most prominent part of it. i am going to ask you to hold it up and i am going to stand back here and i will tell you that i have got my glasses on, but i am not corrected at - vision. if i didn't know how that came up i would have some difficulty telling what that is [indicating]. mr. arnett. is that right? mr. griffin. yes; i think that's pretty good. so you could see this man's green patch on his---- mr. arnett. that's right. he was a patrolman. mr. griffin. well now, did you ever have occasion to look up that ramp? how many times did you have occasion to look up that ramp? mr. arnett. well, it's like i say, i don't remember just turning around and, you know, just looking up the ramp, but maybe walking into this place to get into position or something or other, i was facing that way. mr. griffin. sort of looking around generally up there; i mean as you walked around in this area we have marked "a," did you from time to time glance up in this general direction? mr. arnett. from where you marked "a," i couldn't see from there. you are talking about this "a" here [indicating]? mr. griffin. no; i am talking about this "a" here at the bottom of the ramp [indicating]. mr. arnett. oh, yes. i could from there. mr. griffin. did you glance up from time to time? mr. arnett. i won't say i did, because i don't remember whether i did or didn't. more than likely i did. mr. griffin. now; did you glance back at the tv cameras from time to time? mr. arnett. well, i would say i did; yes. mr. griffin. now, after this second car moved out, did you have occasion to glance over at the tv cameras at any time, toward the tv cameras at any time? mr. arnett. well, i would say, just right offhand, i would say i looked around, but as far as just watching the tv cameras, i didn't. mr. griffin. now, did you observe what any other officers were doing in your area on that side of the ramp? mr. arnett. there was a man to the side of me, to my right, that was in civilian clothes, and was a news reporter that had a microphone in his hand. mr. griffin. was he to your right or was he in front of you? mr. arnett. he was to my right. mr. griffin. directly to your right. now, where was officer harrison? mr. arnett. right in front of me and a little to my left. in other words, we were standing facing this direction and officer harrison was more or less like this. i was looking over his right shoulder [indicating]. mr. griffin. you were looking over his right shoulder. were you pressed right up against him at the time lee oswald moved out? mr. arnett. i wouldn't say i was pressed against him. i was directly--you know, next to him. mr. griffin. was there anybody behind you? mr. arnett. not that i know of. mr. griffin. i am going to state for the record that we have here a mr. robert davis with the attorney general's office with the state of texas, who has been sitting in on these hearings, and he just walked into the room, and i am holding up, at about the same distance that i held this thing from captain arnett--is that right, captain arnett [indicating]? mr. arnett. that's right. mr. griffin. i am holding this about the same distance from mr. davis, and i am asking him if he sees any colored items on the back of this dictaphone card that i am holding up [indicating]? mr. davis. yes. mr. griffin. how many colored things do you see? mr. davis. six. mr. griffin. he has got better---- mr. davis. five dots and a colored arrow. mr. griffin. now, as far as this arrow was concerned, how would you describe that arrow; can you see the stem on the arrow? mr. davis. see what? mr. griffin. stem on the arrow. mr. davis. yes; it's fat, kind of heavy, bulky stem on the arrow. looks more like a house turned on its side than its does an arrow. mr. griffin. have you got - vision? mr. davis. (nods head.) mr. griffin. you don't wear glasses? mr. davis. no. mr. griffin. the record should reflect he did a better job than you. let me ask you this, captain arnett: i am going to ask you to step to the back of the room over there. mr. arnett. back where? mr. griffin. step over to the doorway there. mr. arnett. okay. mr. griffin. now, take your glasses off. you didn't have them on. i am going to hold up a card here, and can you see the colors on that card? mr. arnett. i see green and white [indicating]. mr. griffin. see any other colors [indicating]? mr. arnett. there is a little lighter up at the top of it. mr. griffin. can you tell me whether you see any objects on there or whether you see a circle or a band or something exact or what do you see on there [indicating]? mr. arnett. well, to that end i see something light running up and down, in the upper part of it, just a portion of it is a lighter--kind of a blue color. then it's a green, then down closer to your thumb it's white [indicating]. mr. griffin. well, let me state for the record that what i held up was a mobil gas credit card, which has in the top half of it a band that has a blue background on it, and against that blue background there is a picture of a mobil gas station, which is white, and some background scenery which runs behind the mobil station in some sort of a band, which is green, looks like grass and trees, and just above the blue field there is a completely white area, and in that white area there is written the word credit card, and there is a mobil gas seal. i think that is a fair description of what's on this card [indicating]. mr. arnett. yes, sir. mr. griffin. and you are now seated close enough to me now that you can see it with your glasses on [indicating]? mr. arnett. yes, sir. mr. griffin. mr. davis, do you think that is a fair description of it? mr. davis. yes; i think that is a fair description of it. mr. arnett. do you think i got anywhere close to it? mr. davis. yes; i think so. mr. griffin. i understand there was nobody standing behind you? mr. arnett. not that i know. mr. griffin. was there anybody directly to your left? mr. arnett. to my left? mr. griffin. yes; as you faced the direction that lee oswald was coming from? mr. arnett. there was another reporter with a pencil and pad to my left. then i said captain king and another man beyond him that i don't know. mr. griffin. now, were these people in the same line that blackie harrison was in? mr. arnett. no, sir. they were in the line with me. blackie harrison was in front of me. mr. griffin. now, i am going to mark this "dallas, tex., captain arnett, - - ," and this is exhibit , and i am going to start another one here. all right. now, captain, i want you to put an "a" on this copy of the map where you were standing, put an "a" where you were standing when oswald came out [indicating]? mr. arnett. okay. now, this is the brick building here. now, i want to be sure that i am looking at this right [indicating]. mr. griffin. yes. mr. arnett. okay. there was a news reporter [indicating]. mr. griffin. now, put an "a" where you were standing. mr. arnett. [indicating.] mr. griffin. all right. now, put an h in the circle around it where blackie harrison was standing. mr. arnett. [indicating.] mr. griffin. now, who was the other officer that you said was to your left? mr. arnett. a news reporter and captain king, and i don't know where this other one was. mr. griffin. put a "k" where captain king was standing, and put an "x" where that newspaper reporter was. mr. arnett. [indicating.] mr. griffin. now, was there anybody between captain king and the railing? mr. arnett. there was one person, but i couldn't tell you whether he was in civilian clothes or who they were or anything about it. mr. griffin. all right. put a question mark there. all right. you put a question there. mr. arnett. got it wrong, didn't i? [indicating.] mr. griffin. now you have changed it. you put a dot to your right where there was a newsman? mr. arnett. uh-huh [indicating]. mr. griffin. is this the man that had the microphone? mr. arnett. yes, sir. mr. griffin. was there anybody in front of that man? mr. arnett. yes. they were lined up down this wall here. i don't know whether there was anybody standing directly in front of him. i wouldn't say [indicating]. mr. griffin. was there anybody directly to blackie harrison's left? mr. arnett. i would say they were. mr. griffin. you don't remember? mr. arnett. no, sir. mr. griffin. how do you happen to remember these people that you put on the chart here? mr. arnett. well, standing there with them, well---- mr. griffin. did you see photographs, did you see movies of this after oswald was shot? mr. arnett. i have seen them; yes, sir. mr. griffin. did you see---- mr. arnett. that didn't have any bearing on that. mr. griffin. were you able to see yourself in those movies? mr. arnett. i am in some magazines. mr. griffin. you were able to see yourself in the magazines? mr. arnett. yes, sir. mr. griffin. and is that how you were able to distinguish---- mr. arnett. no, sir. mr. griffin. those people? mr. arnett. huh, uh. this letter that was written the th was before i ever saw any films or magazines, either one. mr. griffin. now, do the magazine shots which you have seen, in which you have seen yourself, do they show the man to your left, who you thought was a newsman? mr. arnett. no, sir. mr. griffin. do they show captain king? mr. arnett. no, sir. mr. griffin. how is it that just you come through on these magazine shots? mr. arnett. well, i don't know how they come through, but the dallas morning news and the times herald that had the big complete picture, all the front page was completely covered, i am not in it. now, this newsman that was on my right, it shows the microphone but it doesn't show me at all. mr. griffin. what magazine did you see yourself in? mr. arnett. four dark days in history, four days, kennedy from childhood to--i don't remember just exactly what it did say on that. mr. griffin. do you happen to remember in four dark days, what page your picture was on? mr. arnett. no, sir. but if you got one i can show it to you, but it's not before the shooting, no. mr. griffin. oh, this is the shot that's taken after the shooting? mr. arnett. shows me scuffling with---- mr. griffin. but you haven't seen a picture of yourself standing there in that line, have you? mr. arnett. yes, sir. mr. griffin. all right. now, where did you see that picture? mr. arnett. in four days. mr. griffin. in four days you saw that? mr. arnett. yes, sir. and it didn't show anybody standing beside me, either. mr. griffin. does it show blackie harrison in that picture? mr. arnett. i believe it does. mr. griffin. all right, there is only one picture of you in four days? mr. arnett. in four days? mr. griffin. yes. mr. arnett. no. there is three. mr. griffin. three pictures of you? mr. arnett. yes, sir. mr. griffin. are they all on the same page? mr. arnett. i don't remember for sure whether they are on the same page or not, but they are in the same connection. mr. griffin. they are all in connection with the shooting? mr. arnett. do you want me to tell you what they are? mr. griffin. yes. mr. arnett. one of them shows me standing like i told you. the next one shows me in the scuffle with jack ruby from here up, doesn't show any other part (indicating). mr. griffin. just shows the top of your head? mr. arnett. from right here up. the next one shows the top of my cap, from my back, following oswald out to the ambulance. that's it [indicating]. mr. griffin. all right. there is only one that shows you standing there? mr. arnett. that's the only one i have seen. mr. griffin. does it show anything but your face? mr. arnett. from about right here up [indicating]. mr. griffin. about the middle of your chest up? mr. arnett. something like that. one in four days in history shows me standing looking down like this, and l. c. graves is wrestling with the gun, before i took hold of ruby. mr. griffin. all right. now, did you see ruby move forward out of the crowd? mr. arnett. not out of the crowd. he was in front of me before i saw him. mr. griffin. did you see him move in front of you? mr. arnett. i can give you an illustration better than i can tell you. mr. griffin. all right. illustrate. mr. arnett. okay. i was standing like this, facing this way (indicating). mr. griffin. all right. now, let's put mr. davis up in front of you, about where blackie harrison was. mr. arnett. all right. mr. griffin. you place him up there. and oswald is going to be to your right. mr. arnett. i was looking over his shoulder [indicating]. mr. griffin. all right. mr. arnett. the first thing---- mr. griffin. you were about that far away from him [indicating]? mr. arnett. something like that. mr. griffin. you were about inches away from blackie harrison? mr. arnett. i would say something like that. mr. griffin. and looking over his right shoulder? mr. arnett. that's right. lee oswald came out----[indicating]---- mr. griffin. you are looking to your right? mr. arnett. to my right. lee oswald came out, the two detectives, leavelle and graves, leavelle was handcuffed to oswald. graves was on the left side of him, had him by the arm. the first time i saw jack ruby he was just about in this position, just pow, that's just how quick it happened. mr. griffin. now, you get back there in the position where you first saw jack. mr. arnett. [indicating.] mr. griffin. no. you get where you saw jack [indicating]. mr. arnett. yes. mr. griffin. is that about how far jack was from---- mr. arnett. from oswald when i saw him, i guess [indicating]. mr. griffin. is that how far he was from harrison? mr. arnett. he might have been a little further out this way from him, but (indicating). mr. griffin. in other words, the first time you saw ruby, ruby was standing forward, he was standing between--in front of harrison in the direction of the commerce street ramp? mr. arnett. right. mr. griffin. but he was off to harrison's left? mr. arnett. he was to harrison's left a little bit. mr. griffin. what direction was ruby facing when you saw him? mr. arnett. just as you and i [indicating]. mr. griffin. facing almost directly at oswald? mr. arnett. yes, sir. mr. griffin. at that point? mr. arnett. in this position [indicating]. mr. griffin. now, did you see anybody standing behind his back? mr. arnett. did i see anybody behind ruby's back? mr. griffin. yes. mr. arnett. no, sir. mr. griffin. all right. now, who would have been directly--as you are standing, directly toward ruby's right, which would be up the main street ramp, who would have been standing right in that position along the row that you were in, directly to ruby's right, toward the main street ramp [indicating]? mr. arnett. well, i named this newsman with a pad, i mean, i said--i didn't know his name. i said he was to my right. mr. griffin. to your left? mr. arnett. yes; left. mr. griffin. all right. now, that man was to your left. was ruby right in front of him or was he right in front of captain king? mr. arnett. well, he was just to the left of blackie harrison. now, whether he was out in front in this manner right in front of king, i wouldn't say for certain [indicating]. mr. griffin. are you able to state whether ruby was a different man from the man you saw next to you holding the pad? mr. arnett. well, yes; i would say he was a different man. mr. griffin. how are you able to state that? mr. arnett. well, i don't believe the newsman was dressed like ruby. mr. griffin. but did you see that newsman again? mr. arnett. did i see him again; is that the question? mr. griffin. yes. after the shooting? mr. arnett. well, i couldn't say whether i did or not. mr. griffin. how would you describe the dress of that newsman; did he have on a hat? mr. arnett. i don't believe he did. mr. griffin. did he wear glasses? mr. arnett. i couldn't say. mr. griffin. did he have a suit on? mr. arnett. i thought he had a kind of raincoat, jacket on, something of that type. mr. griffin. how long did you see that man around before oswald was shot? mr. arnett. well, i had been in this position, i said minutes, and so far as i know blackie harrison had been standing in front of me all that time, and this man beside me, i believe, had been there all this time. i believe they had all been there all this time. mr. griffin. now, about minute before oswald was shot there was a car that drove up and split the lines up? mr. arnett. that's right. i don't know whether it was minute. mr. griffin. but shortly before? mr. arnett. shortly before there was; yes, sir. mr. griffin. was that man standing over next to you before the car went up the ramp; was that man in the raincoat next to you before the car went up the ramp? mr. arnett. i believe so. mr. griffin. are you sure of that? mr. arnett. well, i think he was. mr. griffin. what makes you think he was? mr. arnett. well, i think i remember him being there with me. mr. griffin. have you talked to captain king about this man? mr. arnett. no, sir. mr. griffin. now, how long did you remain in the police building after the shooting of oswald? mr. arnett. after the shooting? mr. griffin. yes. mr. arnett. whenever he shot oswald, i made a dive for him, and l. c. graves, the detective, had him, and he had him like this, had the gun like this, and they were scuffling. i got him by the leg. i don't know what leg i got him by, but i got him by the leg, and i would say there were seven or eight of us had ahold of him. we carried him back into the jail office, and while we had him down, handcuffed, he said, "i am jack ruby. all of you know me." they had him handcuffed by that time. i turned him loose and walked back over here where oswald was laying [indicating]. mr. griffin. all right. now, let me ask you this: how long were you in the building the rest of the day? mr. arnett. i believe i went home about : . mr. griffin. now, by the time you went home had you heard any rumors about how ruby got down into that basement? mr. arnett. that day? mr. griffin. yes. mr. arnett. i don't believe so. i have heard rumors since then, but i didn't that day. mr. griffin. off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. griffin. let the record reflect that mr. davis has left the room, and i hope the record reflects that we had a short break, a very short break, about minutes, and we are back and ready to go. would you read the last part back? (the record was here read by the reporter.) mr. griffin. i am going to mark for identification, dallas, tex., captain arnett, - - , exhibit , and i am going to hand this to you. i am going to ask you, captain arnett, if what i am showing you is the dictaphone belt case with the red arrow on it that you identified earlier in the testimony [indicating]? mr. arnett. do you want me to initial it [indicating]? mr. griffin. now, is the side which i have got the identification on the side that i showed you? mr. arnett. it was up like this. yes [indicating]. mr. griffin. i mean the side [indicating]. mr. arnett. oh, yes. mr. griffin. now, would you sign that? mr. arnett. just sign it? mr. griffin. yes, sir. okay. now, i am also going to mark for identification, dallas, tex., captain arnett, - - , exhibit . now, this is the diagram of the basement on which you placed markings indicating where you and harrison and king and the reporter were standing, [indicating]? mr. arnett. yes, sir. mr. griffin. just before oswald came out? mr. arnett. [nods head.] mr. griffin. now, just before oswald came out, did you see a man right next to blackie harrison's left? mr. arnett. to his left? mr. griffin. yes. mr. arnett. as he would face up commerce street? mr. griffin. as blackie would face commerce street, did you see a man to his left? mr. arnett. well now, there were men out, you know, on the camera and stuff, to his left, if that's what you are talking about. mr. griffin. did you see anybody standing to his left, other than men manning the cameras? mr. arnett. well, i wouldn't say for certain that i did, because he may have been the last one in that row, i don't know. mr. griffin. well, he was in the front row, wasn't he; blackie? mr. arnett. he was in front of me; yes. and i would say he was in the front row, but---- mr. griffin. was there a solid line of people between blackie and the tv cameras, in the row that blackie was standing in? mr. arnett. it seems to me like there was somebody by the side of blackie, but i am not going to say that there were because the first time i saw jack ruby he was to his left, coming up. now, whether there was somebody right beside of blackie harrison, i am not going to say. mr. griffin. the first time you saw jack he was sort of hunched over with the gun? mr. arnett. he was hunched over. he was in this position, and whenever he shot him he went down like that [indicating]. mr. griffin. did you see ruby when he was moving toward oswald? mr. arnett. i saw him moving from where i told you, up to oswald. mr. griffin. did you ever see ruby standing still? mr. arnett. no, sir. mr. griffin. now, do you recall whether there was a solid line of people or how that line of people was from blackie harrison on to the tv cameras? mr. arnett. well, like i said, i think there was somebody the other side of him, but i am not going to be certain about it. mr. griffin. well, were there any other police officers up in the same row that blackie harrison was in? mr. arnett. they were people lined up all the way up the wall and on this wall over here, they were lined all the way up to the edge of it [indicating]. mr. griffin. let me ask you this, captain arnett, did you receive instructions before oswald came out as to where these newspaper people were to stand? mr. arnett. where the newspaper--no; i did not. mr. griffin. were you present when some men convened around officer jones, captain jones, prior to oswald's coming down, when jones gave some instructions? mr. arnett. sergeant jones? mr. griffin. no. captain jones. mr. arnett. captain jones. i remember seeing captain jones there, but i don't remember any group being around him. mr. griffin. well, did you have any instructions to the effect that you were not to permit newspaper people to be over here on the main street side? mr. arnett. no, sir. i did not. mr. griffin. did you have any instructions that you were to try to keep these newspaper people over toward the entrance of the garage? mr. arnett. no, sir. mr. griffin. well, what instructions did you have as to what you were to do there? mr. arnett. well, the main instructions i had was to--when we was placing these men around, searching the building, see that there was nobody in there at all, other than was supposed to be. mr. griffin. but that was an hour before? mr. arnett. that's right. mr. griffin. all right. now, you knew oswald was going to come out that door from the jail, jail office? mr. arnett. yes, sir. mr. griffin. and did you have some idea that you were supposed to keep the area free? mr. arnett. well, wasn't supposed to let anybody in there. mr. griffin. well, if newspaper people had crowded up in front of him, did you have any instructions as to what you were to do? mr. arnett. i didn't. mr. griffin. well, do you know if any of the other people had instructions like that? mr. arnett. no, sir. mr. griffin. when did you write the report that has been marked as exhibit ? mr. arnett. when did i write it? mr. griffin. yes, sir. mr. arnett. that one was--let me see, now. that happened on sunday, i went to tippit's funeral on monday, i went to corpus christi on monday night, i was in corpus on tuesday. i believe i wrote that on wednesday [indicating]. mr. griffin. right. now, sunday was the th---- mr. arnett. monday would have been the th, tuesday the th, be the th. mr. griffin. all right. would you indicate on here, would you put composed november , and initial that [indicating]? mr. arnett. how do you spell composed? mr. griffin. [spelling] c-o-m-p-o-s-e-d. mr. arnett. [spelling] c-o-m-p---- mr. griffin. [spelling]--o-s-e-d. mr. arnett. november ? mr. griffin. yes, sir. okay. now, in between this time, in between the time that you left the police building on the th and the time you prepared this statement, did you talk with any of the members of the police department about the events? mr. arnett. you mean how it was--how they were set up or something? mr. griffin. no. any conversations--did you talk with any of the police officers? mr. arnett. well now, on monday, after this on sunday, i was down there and called some men to meet me out at the baptist church on beckley, to work traffic for the tippit funeral. i talked to lieutenant pierce. he asked me if i would get some reserves out there to help, that they was going to need some, and i said i will call and get some and go out there myself, and i did. mr. griffin. did you talk with pierce about the things that had happened on november ? mr. arnett. not that i know of now. not that i remember about. we were talking about this one particular area. mr. griffin. now, did you ever talk with pierce at that time, prior to the time you wrote this statement, did you ever talk with pierce about how ruby got into the basement? mr. arnett. i don't know whether i did prior to that letter or not. i have heard since then that when lieutenant pierce drove out, that the officers stepped out to stop the traffic and that jack ruby said that's when he walked in. now, when i heard that i couldn't say, the date, but i don't know, but i have heard that. mr. griffin. before you prepared the statement, did you talk with any of the reserves or any members of the police department, about how ruby might have got down in the basement? mr. arnett. well, it seems that maybe some people would say, well, he must have come in with a camera or something, you know, like that. as far as just individuals talking to anybody about it, i don't remember, you know, just particularly talking about that one thing of how he got in there. but i am confident that he wasn't in there. i am confident of that, as i am that jack ruby shot oswald, and i saw that. i may be wrong about it, but now, that's just the way i feel about it, that he wasn't in that basement. mr. griffin. where do you think he was? mr. arnett. well, i don't know where he was. but as far as him being in there any length of time, i just don't believe he was. mr. griffin. would you have seen him if he came across the railing? mr. arnett. would i have seen him? mr. griffin. yes. mr. arnett. well, it seems like i would have, but i don't know that i would have. mr. griffin. why do you think you would have? mr. arnett. well, you know, if you are just looking off, like this, and something happens over here in or feet of you, you will almost---- mr. griffin. wasn't your attention focused almost all the time--after pierce's car went up the ramp, wasn't your attention focused towards the jail office? mr. arnett. well, i would say yes, most of the time, but you can just let anything--you can be driving down the road and a bird or something fly by, you will get a glance of it, and i believe if he had come over that rail i would have got the glance off of it. mr. griffin. could you see things happening over by that railing? mr. arnett. well, i am not going to say that you could or you couldn't, but i believe if he had come over that railing, i believe i would have saw him. mr. griffin. well now, if he had come over the railing behind the line that you were standing in you wouldn't have seen him, would you? mr. arnett. no. sure wouldn't have. mr. griffin. all right. if you were drawing a straight line across your shoulders--well, let's not do it that way. you have got this thing marked on the map here where the a is and where i placed the tv cameras. if you were drawing a straight line across the main street ramp, where would that line--how far would that line have come from the tv cameras that i have placed here [indicating]? mr. arnett. how far would it come? mr. griffin. yes. in other words, how far up the [indicating]---- mr. arnett. i would say a straight line behind the cameras would have been about like mr. davis from me [indicating]. mr. griffin. what i am asking you here, i am asking you to tell me about how far up the main street ramp you were standing from the tv cameras; would you say that the tv cameras and you were the same distance up the main street ramp or they were a little bit in front of you? mr. arnett. they were a little in front of me. mr. griffin. how much; by a little bit, would you say? mr. arnett. well, feet. mr. griffin. maybe feet in front of you. could they have been less than feet? mr. arnett. i don't believe they would have been. they could have. i am just roughly guessing now. mr. griffin. now, were there people congregated around those tv cameras, in front of those tv cameras? mr. arnett. in front of it? mr. griffin. yes. mr. arnett. i don't remember any of them being in front of it. mr. griffin. how about along the sides of the tv cameras? mr. arnett. if i remember right, there was a man at each one of the cameras, operating it. mr. griffin. but there weren't other people crowded down around them? mr. arnett. not that i remember; no, sir. mr. griffin. well now, wouldn't captain king and that newspaperman have blocked your side vision over in the direction of the tv cameras? mr. arnett. it could have. mr. griffin. if jack ruby had walked down that main street ramp would you have seen him? mr. arnett. not without turning around and looking back, i wouldn't have; no, sir. mr. griffin. did you have any occasion to turn back and look around after rio pierce's car went up? mr. arnett. no, sir. mr. griffin. do you mean you don't remember or---- mr. arnett. i don't remember looking around, no sir. mr. griffin. did anybody suggest to you before you wrote this statement that you should have seen ruby in there? mr. arnett. no, sir. mr. griffin. did anybody ask you if you did see ruby in there before you wrote this statement? mr. arnett. other than i just said, i saw him just like i have told you. mr. griffin. who asked you to write this statement? mr. arnett. captain solomon. mr. griffin. now, did captain solomon ever ask you before you wrote the statement whether you saw ruby in there? mr. arnett. i don't recall that he did. but i told him just like i told you, the first time i saw him, where he was, the position he was, so there would be no cause for him to ask me that, because i am telling you the truth about where he was when i saw him. he was too close. mr. griffin. well, do you feel---- mr. arnett. whenever i had ahold of him, i felt like there could be some more shots fired. i believe you would have felt the same way, because i wasn't figuring on that first one being fired. mr. griffin. okay. i am going to ask you to sign all these things [indicating]. mr. arnett. all right [indicating]. mr. griffin. i ask you to sign them, and i assume that when you sign them you are indicating that you think they are accurate and wouldn't make any changes to them? mr. arnett. yes, sir. i have tried to tell you just as near the truth as i can. just sign it or---- mr. griffin. just sign it and put the date. now, will you sign that one and this one here [indicating]? off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. griffin. have i interviewed you before the beginning of this deposition? mr. arnett. before tonight? mr. griffin. yes. mr. arnett. not that i know of. mr. griffin. has any other member of the staff interviewed you before i took your deposition? mr. arnett. the only one that interviewed me was the fbi men, came to my home, one of them was from memphis, tenn., and i don't know where the other one came from. mr. griffin. i don't have to ask you this, but we say it for the record anyhow. if anything should come to your attention which you think would be helpful to us or which you find maybe you want to make a correction in anything that you have told us, will you come to us and---- mr. arnett. absolutely. mr. griffin. and advise us? mr. arnett. i am for you percent. mr. griffin. i certainly appreciate your assistance. that's all. testimony of buford lee beaty the testimony of buford lee beaty was taken at a.m., on march , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. burt w. griffin, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. griffin. for the record, i am burt griffin, and i am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel's office for the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy. this commission has been appointed pursuant to executive order of president johnson issued on november , , and pursuant to a joint resolution of congress no. . under the provisions of the resolution and executive order, the commission has authority to establish rules and procedure which they have done, and pursuant to those rules and procedures i have been designated to come here to dallas to take your sworn deposition. you are appearing here by virtue of a letter which was sent from the general counsel of the commission, mr. j. lee rankin, to chief curry. actually, you are entitled to receive a -day written notice. however, under the rules of the commission, if you want to, you can waive the notice, and we can go forward without the actual letter, i will ask you a little later whether you want a letter, or waive it. the scope of this investigation is that we are directed to investigate and evaluate and report back to president johnson all the facts that surround the assassination of president kennedy and the subsequent murder of lee harvey oswald. our particular concern in calling you is in connection with the death of lee oswald, although i am going to ask you some questions that will develop a little background that people who are working on the assassination of the president can use to decide whether you were in a position to provide some physical action that something might have happened in which they are particularly concerned about and as to which they need more witnesses. but our primary concern in talking to you is to find out the matters which might be relevant to ruby, although we are interested in anything else that you might know of your own knowledge that is valuable to the commission. let me ask you first of all, would you like us to get you a written letter. mr. beaty. no. mr. griffin. he is shaking his head no. i might say, she has to take your answer down. mr. beaty. i am sorry; no. mr. griffin. now, also, you are entitled to an attorney. mr. beaty. what do i need an attorney for? mr. griffin. some of the people come with attorneys. i don't want you to feel that maybe if you come with an attorney that you are prejudiced. mr. beaty. i don't need an attorney, i don't think. mr. griffin. would you raise your right hand. do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. beaty. i do. mr. griffin. would you state your name for the record? mr. beaty. buford lee beaty. mr. griffin. where do you live, mr. beaty? mr. beaty. freeman, garland. mr. griffin. when were you born? mr. beaty. july , . mr. griffin. where are you employed? mr. beaty. police department, dallas, tex. mr. griffin. how long have you been so employed? mr. beaty. fifteen and a half years. mr. griffin. are you in any particular bureau of the police department? mr. beaty. narcotics. mr. griffin. how long have you been there? mr. beaty. altogether, about years. this last time, about months, something like that. mr. griffin. what was the earlier period that you were with the narcotics bureau? mr. beaty. from to . and then i came back this time in june. mr. griffin. now from until you came back, what bureau? mr. beaty. burglary and theft. mr. griffin. do you hold a particular rank? mr. beaty. detective; yes, sir. mr. griffin. now, did you know ruby announced that you would recognize him? mr. beaty. oh, yes. mr. griffin. could you tell us how you happened to first become familiar with mr. ruby? mr. beaty. when i first met him? mr. griffin. yes. mr. beaty. well, i wrote him a traffic ticket one time about , or something like that. but i knew of him before then. he had a joint down on south ervay, and he was always calling the police to pick up drunks and one thing and another. everybody knows jack ruby. mr. griffin. it was the silver spur? mr. beaty. that's right. mr. griffin. in connection with your duties in the narcotics bureau, did you ever have occasion to talk with him or conduct any investigation in connection with him? mr. beaty. about narcotics specifically? mr. griffin. well, in connection with any of your duties, investigating duties with the police department, as opposed to traffic tickets? let me ask you that question generally. mr. beaty. not that i ever recall. i can't think of anything specifically at all where i could say i had occasion to interrogate him about anything. mr. griffin. what i am getting at is, was jack ruby ever treated by you as a person whom you might go to if you needed to find out about somebody? mr. beaty. a confidant? no, sir; absolutely not. mr. griffin. do you know whether other people you worked with in the narcotics bureau might have attempted to use him? mr. beaty. no, sir; i don't know. mr. griffin. were you familiar with any narcotics investigation that ever took place with respect to jack ruby? mr. beaty. none. mr. griffin. now how often would you say that you saw ruby during the last years? mr. beaty. possibly, four, maybe five times. mr. griffin. what were the occasions for seeing jack? mr. beaty. well, i saw him one time. i was working late nights and i saw him walking his dog after his joint closed down on commerce street, and i run into him on the street, and i go by his joint. you don't say hello and look around. you say hello. mr. griffin. did jack ever stop in and visit you while you were in your office at the police department? mr. beaty. yes; that was the last time i saw him before the shooting. he came by--didn't particularly come to see me, but he just came to the office. mr. griffin. do you recall about when that was? mr. beaty. no; it seemed like it was about a month before all this happened, something like that. mr. griffin. did he speak to anybody in the narcotics office? mr. beaty. yes; he talked to myself, and i believe lieutenant cornwall was in and out of the office, and dan asabell. mr. griffin. do you remember what you all talked with jack about? mr. beaty. yes; he talked about a girl. he had a stripper down there. let me think if i remember what her name was. jada from new orleans. the whole thing was how he thought jada was just a little indecent about her act and he would have to turn the lights off every once in a while and tell her to clean it up a little bit, and one thing and another. and how they went through a little "hazel" in judge richburg's court over all this. it was all in the papers, the whole story was and that is about the gist of what we talked about. and jada testified at the previous thing. the bureau i work in, the special bureau, also handles all the dancehall licenses and the liquor licenses and it could be that, i don't believe he made a special trip to our office, i think he came to the bureau and might have had a little business for a liquor license, or something, i don't know. i didn't ask him about it at all. mr. griffin. all right, the narcotics bureau, is that correct to call it a bureau? mr. beaty. section. mr. griffin. narcotics section is a subdivision of the special service bureau, is that correct? mr. beaty. yes. mr. griffin. within the special service bureau, there is a department which handles dancehall policemen? mr. beaty. that's right. mr. griffin. now, does everybody who is a part of the special service bureau occupy the same suite of offices? mr. beaty. no, sir. mr. griffin. does the narcotics bureau occupy the same suite of offices as the dancehall bureau? mr. beaty. yes, sir. mr. griffin. what other people occupy the same suite of offices? mr. beaty. vice squad. mr. griffin. do you remember, detective beaty, that you were on duty on november , the day the president was shot? mr. beaty. yes; i was. mr. griffin. do you recall where you were when you first heard he had been shot? mr. beaty. trade mart. mr. griffin. where did you go from the trade mart? mr. beaty. went back to our office. mr. griffin. how long did you remain there? mr. beaty. i think until about o'clock that night. mr. griffin. were you on duty on the d? mr. beaty. yes, sir. mr. griffin. did you remain in the police department all day on the d? mr. beaty. yes, sir. what day was the d? mr. griffin. that was saturday. mr. beaty. yes. mr. griffin. directing your attention to friday, did you see jack ruby in the hallway at all on friday, or any place in the police department? mr. beaty. no. mr. griffin. now on saturday, did you see jack ruby any time on saturday? mr. beaty. no, sir. mr. griffin. what time would you estimate that you left the police department on saturday? mr. beaty. worked a lot of overtime. i am trying to remember. it was probably : or o'clock that night; saturday night. mr. griffin. now do you recall whether when you left the police department that night you had heard any rumors or had received any kind of information that would indicate that oswald was going to be moved from the city jail to the county jail on saturday? mr. beaty. no, sir. mr. griffin. was sunday a regular day for you to report to duty? mr. beaty. yes, sir. mr. griffin. what time did you report for duty? mr. beaty. eight o'clock that morning. mr. griffin. do you remember where you parked your car that morning? mr. beaty. in the basement, i believe. no; that is not right. it is sunday you are talking about now? mr. griffin. yes. mr. beaty. i couldn't tell you to save my life. mr. griffin. at anytime on sunday did you ever have occasion to come in the commerce street, come down the steps from commerce street and walk down the hallway in the basement that leads to the records room? mr. beaty. the pedestrian entrance to the city hall basement? mr. griffin. yes. mr. beaty. i don't remember that either. if i park my car on commerce street around there somewhere, i probably did. if i parked it on main, i probably took that other entrance, but i don't remember. mr. griffin. if you don't remember, that is all right. mr. beaty. i couldn't tell you. mr. griffin. now, when you arrived for duty, did you report up to the narcotics bureau? mr. beaty. yes. mr. griffin. is that on the third floor? mr. beaty. no; on the second floor. mr. griffin. how long did you remain in the narcotics bureau? mr. beaty. until about : or something like that. mr. griffin. then what did you do at : ? mr. beaty. everyone decided we wanted to get some coffee, and as we got off the elevator in the basement, i noticed all the newspaper people standing out there and a couple of reserve officers and a policeman, i think, whose name was nelson. i didn't know him at the time. he was guarding the entrance. and just curiosity made me, instead of going to get coffee, stay around to see what was going on. mr. griffin. were the people that you were going to go to coffee with in the narcotics bureau? mr. beaty. no; vice and narcotics, and some administrative section. mr. griffin. any people from the third floor? mr. beaty. no. mr. griffin. do you know where they went after coffee? mr. beaty. no. mr. griffin. did they go out of the building? mr. beaty. yes; out of the building. mr. griffin. now, tell me what happened when you saw this fellow nielson. mr. beaty. right away, nothing. i mean i just happened to glance over here and here's two officers, and nothing happened. i just kind of lingered behind and i didn't care for coffee anyway, and i told them i would wait for them, and i kind of figured they would maybe move oswald, and i just wanted to see him and that is what it amounted to. mr. griffin. did you--you expected that oswald would be moved fairly soon? mr. beaty. yes. mr. griffin. had you received some word before that? mr. beaty. everybody in the world, at o'clock. they said in the newspaper and radio. mr. griffin. by this time when the boys in your group went out for coffee, had there been any instructions to standby? mr. beaty. none. mr. griffin. did you later receive some instructions to standby to help in the oswald move? mr. beaty. as capt. o. a. jones got off the elevator, and as he walked by, he said, "come here, i want to talk to you." mr. griffin. did this take place in the basement? mr. beaty. right by the elevator door to the basement. he said there will be some officers come down from the third floor, and told me to wait for them right here, and he indicated close by the entrance to the jail office. mr. griffin. now detective beaty, what is your best estimate of how long this encounter with jones was before oswald actually came downstairs? mr. beaty. what time did he get shot? it was about probably minutes before he actually came down and ruby shot him. mr. griffin. that is the important thing. i would rather have you fix it in terms of that time rather than some specific time. mr. beaty. around minutes or something like this. mr. griffin. because i noticed in the interview which you gave to the fbi, you indicated that this was about o'clock that you saw jones. did you have any idea at the time when you gave this interview to agents dallman and quigley--that was on december --did you have anything specific in mind when you told them that it was o'clock. mr. beaty. i just was trying to remember when captain jones told me to remain there. no; i was just trying to remember about the lapse of time, it seemed to me like. mr. griffin. let me ask you to look over this with me. let me point out, you indicated here that you thought oswald came down about : ? mr. beaty. i do. mr. griffin. now, they have reported that you told them that it was o'clock. now it may be that that was that time it could be a mistake on their part writing it down? mr. beaty. well, i don't know. mr. griffin. go ahead. mr. beaty. boy, it is hard to remember, but it seems to me like he breezed through in just probably about minutes--could possibly be longer--after mr. jones told me this. i waited around for probably another or minutes and the elevator doors opened up, and here all the officers from the third floor, and we moved from there out into the middle hallway. and they describe it here as a, whatever, i don't know, right outside the jail office door, the little hall where they brought him out of the jail office door there, and we remained there for about minutes. and if the shooting actually occurred around : , i have made an error about the original time captain jones said that. mr. griffin. would you want to take my pen and on this statement would you want to put a circle around the o'clock and make some note out on the side that what you meant was minutes before the shooting, or whatever you think was the accurate time? mr. beaty. gosh, i don't remember. i just can't remember to save my life what time it was. mr. griffin. how is your memory as to the fact that it was about minutes before the shooting? mr. beaty. thirty minutes, may be an hour. that times passes so fast along in there. mr. griffin. do you think it could have been longer than an hour? mr. beaty. i don't think so; no, sir. mr. griffin. would it be fair to say, and i want you to be very frank about this, because i don't want to change this in any way that isn't fair, would it be fair to change this time a.m., to read---- mr. beaty. that it was or : , would that be all right, because i don't remember? mr. griffin. to read a half hour or--to an hour before oswald was shot? mr. beaty. well, i don't carry a watch so i never know what time it is unless i ask somebody and it would be a matter of kind of remembering, and if you want to say or : , that would be about the same time, wouldn't it? mr. griffin. would it be just fair to say, "i am not certain about the exact time?" mr. beaty. that would be fine. mr. griffin. i wish you would do this in your own handwriting and write in there, "i am not certain about the time." mr. beaty. [makes statement and initials.] mr. griffin. put a date after your initials. mr. beaty. - - . i don't even remember what month. mr. griffin. all right, now, do you recall any of the people who came down in the contingent with captain jones? mr. beaty. they are listed on the back of that, the best i remember. mr. griffin. you have listed on page , of what we have labeled commission document (beaty exhibit ), the names of about a dozen police officers. did you see all these people come down together, or these people that you remember as having been in the basement? mr. beaty. they came--let me read them. mr. griffin. let me read them for the record. b. h. combest. j. h. hutchinson. mr. beaty. those two, boy, they are supposed both special service officers, too, and i don't know how in the world they could have received word unless they called and told them to come down, because they were the only ones from the special service bureau down there with me at the time. i can't remember them getting off the elevator at the time, but captain martin---- mr. griffin. let me read them. w. j. harrison. mr. beaty. yes; i remember him. mr. griffin. wilbur jay cutchshaw. james watson. mr. beaty. yes. mr. griffin. l. d. miller. mr. beaty. yes. mr. griffin. r. l. lowery. mr. beaty. yes; he was on. mr. griffin. j. charles goolsby? mr. beaty. yes. mr. griffin. w. e. chambers. mr. beaty. yes. mr. griffin. captain frank martin. mr. beaty. yes. mr. griffin. lieutenant w. wiggins? mr. beaty. no; he wasn't. he was a jail supervisor. he was already down. mr. griffin. r. c. wagner? mr. beaty. yes. mr. griffin. that is the complete list. mr. beaty. they must have been on two elevators. mr. griffin. now, have these men that you saw come down, harrison, cutchshaw, watson, miller, lowery, goolsby, chambers, and martin, were all those people attached to the juvenile bureau? mr. beaty. no; chambers is forgery. goolsby is juvenile. lowery is juvenile. wagner, i believe, is forgery. watson is auto theft. harrison is juvenile. i don't know where miller works. mr. griffin. how about cutchshaw? mr. beaty. cutchshaw is juvenile. hutchinson and combest are both special services. mr. griffin. but wagner was not in the elevator? mr. beaty. yes; he was with them. mr. griffin. he came down in the elevator? mr. beaty. yes; wiggins wasn't. mr. griffin. wiggins wasn't in the elevator. now, when these men got off the elevator, what did they do? where did they go? mr. beaty. walked straight out there in front of the elevator to the windows by--are you familiar with that place down there? mr. griffin. yes; i am. mr. beaty. what i call it, where you go through that. mr. griffin. might as well call it the window in front of the jail office, if that is where it was. mr. beaty. that's right. mr. griffin. i am going to sketch a diagram of the basement. did they go through the swinging doors? mr. beaty. we waited right about here. mr. griffin. you are indicating just about at the first window of the jail office as you come from the elevator? mr. beaty. that's right. mr. griffin. the elevator we are talking about is the general elevator that services all floors and is available to anybody that comes into the building? mr. beaty. we are not talking about the jail elevator? mr. griffin. that's right. mr. beaty. that's right. mr. griffin. now, when you all congregated outside that window, what took place? mr. beaty. within or minutes, captain jones came through and spoke to me, and we walked through the small hall by the jail office window into the double doors and he instructed us to stand on either side of that hallway, which would be just outside the double doors as you enter into the basement parking area. mr. griffin. now, mr. beaty, i am going to hand you my pen. i am going to ask you if you will mark on this diagram where was your understanding that people were to place themselves. mr. beaty. where they were assigned? mr. griffin. yes; what assignments did jones make at that point? mr. beaty. he said, "divide yourself up about half and half. half on this side and half on this side." mr. griffin. now, you have drawn a line on either side, straight line on either side of the hallway that leads out between the swinging doors and the main street and commerce street ramp. mr. beaty. that's right. mr. griffin. did he tell officers to stand any place except along those two walls where you have drawn the line? mr. beaty. no, sir. he instructed us to, when they brought oswald out of the smaller swinging door in the outside hall, to make a path for him and be sure that nobody got to him or slowed him down. in other words, indicating that--i don't remember whether he said to get to him or not. he just said keep the people back so we can get him through, something like that. mr. griffin. let me ask you this: what was your understanding that you people were to do, if anything, when oswald got abreast of you? mr. beaty. to keep the people back. of course, over here where i was, there was nobody behind me. mr. griffin. would you place on the chart where it was you were stationed? put an "x" there. mr. beaty. [complies.] mr. griffin. let me ask you again. as oswald moved out of the jail office and approached the car that he was to get in, did you have any understanding as to any action that you were supposed to take? mr. beaty. like i said before, of course, there was nobody at that time, we thought, but the press and police officers down there, and at that time we were, television cameras were set up across the ramp behind a railing about foot tall. mr. griffin. will you place the tv cameras? mr. beaty. somewhere right there. mr. griffin. let me ask you to put the tv cameras in a square. mr. beaty. [complies.] mr. griffin. now, were there only two tv cameras in the basement? mr. beaty. the best i remember. mr. griffin. do you recall if there was a tv camera in the garage entranceway to the garage? mr. beaty. no, sir; i sure don't. there were so many of them, and guys had them on their shoulders, and little tape recorders, and one thing all over the joint. mr. griffin. now, i am talking only about tv cameras, the big things that set on a tripod as opposed to little movie cameras. mr. beaty. they had some of the shoulder cameras. mr. griffin. i wasn't thinking of them. i am just talking about the stationary cameras. mr. beaty. i suppose i didn't pay any attention to them at all. mr. griffin. i am only talking now about the instructions that you remember that came from captain jones. do you have any idea as to what you were to do when oswald got abreast of you? mr. beaty. yes, sir. he told us we would keep this aisle clear, and at this time the cameras were run in and out of this door and something through this door, and around here, and then he returned in about or minutes later and said, "all you people from the press move back into the driveway." and i will indicate it by a dotted line across here. mr. griffin. okay. mr. beaty. and over into the driveway entrance of the parking area from the commerce street, main street ramp. would you want a dotted line? mr. griffin. yes. let me ask you a question about that. what is your best estimate of the number of people that were over in the garage entrance area? mr. beaty. counting the people here behind the camera? mr. griffin. no; not counting the people behind the camera. mr. beaty. right along in here? mr. griffin. yes; along the dotted line. mr. beaty. thirty-five or forty. mr. griffin. was that congested? mr. beaty. no; it wasn't. you can get that many people in. it is a pretty wide area. looks like it might be feet across there, if this is . mr. griffin. now, across that -foot area, was there just a single line across there? mr. beaty. they could be doubled or tripled. they were all scattered out, of course. but there seemed like there was some congestion right around there and behind the cameras. mr. griffin. will you draw a half circle in the area or quarter circle in the area where the congestion was? mr. beaty. right along in here, best i remember. mr. griffin. now, did there appear to be people standing behind the tv cameras? mr. beaty. yes. mr. griffin. were there people standing up above the tv cameras, if you recall? mr. beaty. i don't know what they would stand on. there is nothing for them to stand on unless they had a box or something like that. mr. griffin. now, how did the congestion in this area that you have indicated by a half circle which runs from about the position of the tv camera close to the main street side, to about the middle of the entrance to the garage, how did the congestion in that area compare to the congestion along the main street ramp or across the main street ramp? mr. beaty. the best i remember, most of the people that moved out of this area moved into this area here. then they moved over here. it looked like there might have been as many here, or more, as there were over here. there must have been a hundred all together all scattered out all in the basement, and they wouldn't stay still. they would mill around as long as they didn't get past this line here, and we weren't too concerned with them, because they had uniform officers out here in the basement and they brought those down earlier and shook down all the cars a time or two, and i don't know what was going on out here. mr. griffin. now, how many uniformed officers did you see stationed back here in the basement area? mr. beaty. earlier? mr. griffin. no; at the time oswald came out. mr. beaty. i didn't see any. mr. griffin. is it possible that there might not have been officers there? mr. beaty. no; there were some earlier, about . mr. griffin. about in there? did you see them search the basement? mr. beaty. yes, sir. mr. griffin. did they search the basement, can you remember, before or after you got the instructions from captain jones? mr. beaty. i couldn't remember. i don't know. mr. griffin. were you down in the basement? mr. beaty. what do you call the basement now, this or this? mr. griffin. i am talking about the whole bottom area, all the way from the elevators that come down from the upstairs. mr. beaty. after the instructions, because i wouldn't be out here. mr. griffin. were you, prior to the time that your friends planned to go out for coffee, down in the basement at all? mr. beaty. no, sir. mr. griffin. but you were down in the basement at the time the search of the basement was conducted? mr. beaty. this was a good hour and a half or something like that, later on. mr. griffin. the basement was searched substantially after you got down there? mr. beaty. yes. and i understand that this was the second time it happened. in other words, well, i heard somebody say we have swept the basement out twice already and i don't remember who said this. this is to indicate that they searched the cars. mr. griffin. do you recall who was in charge of the search that you saw take place? mr. beaty. i would assume that since it was uniformed officers, it would be captain talbert, because they were all uniform officers. mr. griffin. do you remember whether or not sergeant dean was in charge of that search? mr. beaty. no; sergeant dean was there and so was sergeant putnam, and i don't think you could say one was in charge or the other one was in charge. it was a joint operation. i would say captain talbert was in charge. and, actually, he wasn't down there. he would drop by and leave a few instructions, some for dean and some for putnam and the like. mr. griffin. during the period that you were down in the basement, did you see cars going in and out, coming up and down the ramp? mr. beaty. saw one leave, it was a squad car, and it left and went this way. mr. griffin. up the main street ramp. did you see any other cars coming in the basement? were officers coming in on routine duty and so forth? mr. beaty. i am sure there were, but i don't remember whether they were or not. i know that they closed it from o'clock on, but i can't remember exactly what time they shut it off. mr. griffin. now, when you first walked out in here in front of the swinging doors toward the ramp, do you recall if the tv lights were on? mr. beaty. no, sir; they weren't. mr. griffin. now, do you recall when the armored car came in? mr. beaty. yes, sir. mr. griffin. do you recall if the tv lights were on at that time? mr. beaty. no, sir; i am quite sure that they took some picture of it, but i don't remember whether, and there again which lights are you talking about? man, they were everywhere down there. and the armored car backed down this ramp. mr. griffin. commerce street? mr. beaty. commerce street ramp. and there were people with cameras on the main street ramp back over here, back behind this -foot entrance to the garage. they were everywhere. mr. griffin. was there some sort of floodlights set up in connection with the tv cameras? mr. beaty. i am sure there were. they were awful bright. i don't know whether they were hooked onto the cameras or something. they brought in this material, but the best i remember, there was a bunch of them over in this area. mr. griffin. behind the camera? mr. beaty. well, not necessarily. they could have been under or over. you couldn't hardly tell. mr. griffin. now, at the time that the armored car came down the ramp, did you see what happened around that armored car? mr. beaty. like what now? mr. griffin. did you see anything that happened? mr. beaty. no. mr. griffin. you saw the armored car come down? mr. beaty. it took them quite a while to get the armored car down. mr. griffin. did you actually see it come down? mr. beaty. not the whole time. mr. griffin. as you looked up toward that armored car, were you able to see people around that armored car from where you were standing? mr. beaty. well, tell me when you are talking about? mr. griffin. at anytime. mr. beaty. it took it about minutes to back down, because it was too tight for the ramp, and they didn't get it all the way in there. they were very, very cautious and careful, and it parked up the ramp, and i don't remember seeing anybody around. mr. griffin. do you recall chief batchelor coming down into the basement and going up to the armored car? mr. beaty. no, sir; i don't. mr. griffin. do you recall any police officers up in the area of the armored car? mr. beaty. no, sir; i don't. mr. griffin. now, do you recall whether there was an officer--did you see an officer stationed up at the top of the main street ramp? mr. beaty. no, sir; i couldn't see that way. mr. griffin. is that because of the police that were stationed that you didn't have a straight view of the ramp? mr. beaty. yes, sir. mr. griffin. now, as you looked over in this direction over here, could you see any police officers over in there? the place that i am indicating is in the direction of the main street ramp. did you see any police officers? mr. beaty. yes, sir; some of those officers i mentioned, i don't remember exactly how they were stationed, which ones. the plainclothes officers were standing on this side here. mr. griffin. could you tell us--i am not asking you who you subsequently learned was over there, but who you actually remember seeing in that line? mr. beaty. i don't know. i couldn't tell you. the only reason i could on this report i made, i remember who all was down there. that i could remember. and i remember one was on our side, and i assumed the others were on the other side. mr. griffin. now, as you look over here toward the tv cameras---- mr. beaty. i am not looking over there much. mr. griffin. if, when you did on occasions look over there, could you see people around the tv cameras? mr. beaty. yes. mr. griffin. did you have any trouble distinguishing their faces? mr. beaty. after the lights were on, you couldn't see nothing. mr. griffin. after the lights were on, you couldn't see anything over there? mr. beaty. no. mr. griffin. now, do you recall whether or not captain jones instructed the men that when oswald was brought out from the jail office to where you men were standing, that you were supposed to begin to start walking alongside of oswald toward the armored car? mr. beaty. he told us to keep the path open, and then he changed this detail here and pushed them all back. mr. griffin. if all of the members of the press were along the main street ramp and were over behind, roughly behind the railing, or at least behind the tv camera in the direction of the garage area, what function did you people who were stationed along where you have marked your "x," that wall that you have your "x," and up the commerce street ramp, what function were you people going to have? mr. beaty. i couldn't tell you. i couldn't tell you. mr. griffin. you certainly didn't expect that you were going to have any trouble from newspaper people, because you were all backed up against the wall, weren't you? mr. beaty. i couldn't tell you, sir. mr. griffin. now, before ruby shot oswald, what did you do? mr. beaty. when? mr. griffin. before ruby shot oswald. mr. beaty. when we first, it occurred to me at the time that--you don't have policemen for years, you don't have to sit down and draw them a diagram to have them cover somebody, and captain jones said make the way open, and it occurred to me that if we had to move around that corner, fine. at that time there were people all around here and out in the driveway. mr. griffin. at the time captain jones set you up, there had been people there? mr. beaty. yes; there had. mr. griffin. you then displaced news people, is that right? mr. beaty. no; whenever captain jones come back down, and i think he had sergeant putnam or dean, and he instructed them all to get back there. mr. griffin. the area you are pointing to is on the opposite side from where you were? mr. beaty. that's right. mr. griffin. okay. mr. beaty. if you go on with your interview, i can tell you what my opinion is why we was there. mr. griffin. that is what i want you to tell me, what your opinion was. mr. beaty. well, of course, the people from the press, they brought oswald out here, they all, captain jones asked them to please don't ask him no questions, and let's get this over with as fast as we can. those are not his exact words, but that is what he meant. so, we all moved back behind this line, and as they brought oswald out to just about the entrance to the commerce street and main street ramp right along here---- mr. griffin. put a circle where oswald was. mr. beaty. the three of them were there along here. mr. griffin. all right. i have written "oswald." mr. beaty. and, by the way, after that they moved these people back, these officers on the north side of the hallway were moved out into the ramp area here. mr. griffin. these started to move out? mr. beaty. yes, sir; they did. mr. griffin. now, how about the people on your side? mr. beaty. there was only about four of us over there. mr. griffin. you people stayed where you were? mr. beaty. yes. mr. griffin. let me ask you this. do you think these people who were on the ramp side, which you call the north side---- mr. beaty. yes, sir; i would call it the north side. mr. griffin. what you have called the north side opposite where you were standing, do you think those people began to move out sort of instinctively? mr. beaty. no; they moved out before he got out there. mr. griffin. i see. mr. beaty. and i am sure that there were some more officers that, i don't know, that were along here. they had two people stationed out here, a reserve and a---- mr. griffin. put an "x" where these reserves were. mr. beaty. to keep these people from coming through here. mr. griffin. this was between the swinging doors and the main elevators? mr. beaty. yes. mr. griffin. all right, were there two reserve officers? mr. beaty. no; they had one reserve and one officer stationed here. mr. griffin. all right. mr. beaty. yes, and before they brought oswald out, there was some photographers in this area inside the jail office. mr. griffin. you have placed circles in the jail office where there were photographers? mr. beaty. and they were removed by a uniformed officer and asked to come out here, or out here, or back here, and i recall some of them went this way and went on out and took their place. mr. griffin. some of them went toward the garage area and some on the main street ramp? mr. beaty. some came back through these double doors, and were standing along this hallway like they might be going to try to photograph through the window. i remember one guy had a big shoulder camera and one at--at one of these windows here. mr. griffin. so, is it fair to say that one of the functions you people served in standing along the wall that you were on, was to make sure that as these photographers cleared out the jail office, they didn't line up along the wall? mr. beaty. yes; also, to double check this double door after he went by, and somebody might have gotten instructions, i don't remember whether they did or not. mr. griffin. now, detective, after oswald was shot, did you go into the jail office? mr. beaty. yes, sir. mr. griffin. did you go upstairs with ruby? mr. beaty. no, sir. mr. griffin. what did you do after ruby shot oswald? after ruby was taken upstairs? what did you do? mr. beaty. captain jones said, "do you have a car out," and i told him, "yes, sir." he said, "get about five of these officers," and i don't remember which one, "and go to parkland hospital and help them with security." and within minutes after he was shot, we were on our way to parkland. mr. griffin. do you remember if sergeant dean was out there? mr. beaty. i don't think he was. he might have been. i didn't remember seeing him. mr. griffin. do you remember if he went in your group? mr. beaty. no; i am pretty sure of both of the detectives in our group. mr. griffin. how long did you remain at parkland hospital? mr. beaty. let's see, probably after o'clock, maybe o'clock that afternoon. mr. griffin. while you were out at parkland hospital, did you hear any rumors about how ruby got down to the basement? mr. beaty. no, sir. mr. griffin. when you got back to the police department, did you hear any rumors back there as to how ruby got into the basement? mr. beaty. no, sir. mr. griffin. how soon after you got back to the police station were you asked to prepare a report to chief curry? don't look at this. i want you to do this from your own recollection. mr. beaty. probably the next day. i don't even remember. i couldn't tell you. somebody said, you got to write a report. but this was the second or third one. we wrote a little report along as we went to kind of, each day we have a daily report we turn in. mr. griffin. did you write a report at the end of the day? mr. beaty. i am not sure whether i did that or not. mr. griffin. would you do this. after you leave, would you check back at the police department and find out if you did write a daily report. mr. beaty. if i did, it would be a special assignment. it wouldn't have anything to do with the narcotics. mr. griffin. would it have any details of what you did? mr. beaty. no. mr. griffin. now, i am going to mark this map we have been working with, "dallas, tex., detective beaty, march , , exhibit ." now, is this exhibit the document that you have been making marks on during this discussion? mr. beaty. yes; it is. mr. griffin. i wonder if you would sign that and then date it? mr. beaty. [signs and dates.] what is the date, the th? mr. griffin. yes. all right, i am going to mark the interview report by agents dallman and quigley of the interview with you on december , , as "dallas, tex., detective beaty, - - ----" mr. beaty. that happened in garland. mr. griffin. but we are marking it here in dallas. mr. beaty. okay. mr. griffin. i am going to mark what purports to be a copy of a letter which you prepared to go to chief curry, which is dated november , , and mark that "dallas, texas, detective beaty, - - , exhibit ." i want you to look at and tell me if you had a chance to read that over? mr. beaty. yes. mr. griffin. is that a true and accurate copy of a letter that you sent to chief curry? mr. beaty. that looks like it might be; yes, sir. mr. griffin. you have read over both the interview report, exhibit , and this letter, exhibit ? other than the changes you have already made on exhibit , and the testimony which you have already given here today, are there any additions or corrections that you would want to make in either of these? mr. beaty. not that i can remember or think of. i have thought about it some since it happened to see if i could remember anything that i didn't tell the fbi agents, and i can't think of a thing. actually, i didn't see a whole lot of the actual shooting. mr. griffin. is there anything that you would want to tell the commission that you think would be important to us in connection with our investigation? mr. beaty. i don't think of a thing. you have covered it pretty well. mr. griffin. did you and i have any interview of any sort prior to the time we took this deposition. mr. beaty. you talked to me in the hall and said read this, is all. mr. griffin. i handed you exhibits and , but other than giving it to you and asking you to read it before the interview? mr. beaty. no, sir. mr. griffin. have you been interviewed by any other member of the commission staff? mr. beaty. you are speaking of the warren commission? mr. griffin. yes, sir. mr. beaty. no. mr. griffin. now, other than the interview that you had with dallman and quigley on december , , do you recall whether you were interviewed by any other federal agent? mr. beaty. no; i am pretty sure i wasn't. testimony of alvin r. brock the testimony of alvin r. brock was taken at : p.m., on march , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. leon d. hubert, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. hubert. this is the deposition of mr. alvin r. brock, the patrolman, dallas police department. mr. brock, my name is leon hubert, i am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the president's commission. under the provisions of the executive order , dated november , , joint resolution of congress , and the rules of procedure adopted by the commission in conformance with that executive order and that joint resolution, i have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, mr. brock. i state to you that the general nature of the commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report on the facts relating to the assassination of president kennedy and the subsequent violent death of lee harvey oswald. in particular, as to you mr. brock, the nature of the inquiry is to determine what facts you know about the death of oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. now, mr. brock, you have appeared here today by virtue of a general request made by j. lee rankin, general counsel of the president's commission, to chief curry, asking him to make his men available. under the rules adopted by the commission you are entitled to -day written notice prior to the taking of this deposition, but the rules also provide that a witness may waive the -day written notice if he wishes to do so. and now i ask you if you are willing to waive the -day notice? mr. brock. yes. mr. hubert. will you stand then and raise your right hand so that i may swear you? do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. brock. i do. mr. hubert. please state your name? mr. brock. alvin r. brock. mr. hubert. your age? mr. brock. twenty-five. mr. hubert. where do you reside? mr. brock. east place, ennis, tex. mr. hubert. what is your employment? mr. brock. patrolman, for the city of dallas, police department. mr. hubert. how long have you been on the dallas police department? mr. brock. three and a half years. mr. hubert. prior to that time, how did you make your living? mr. brock. worked as assembler in aircraft. mr. hubert. assembler--aircraft--what? mr. brock. as an assembler of aircrafts. mr. hubert. how long did you work at that? mr. brock. once i worked for approximately a year, months, temco, and before that approximately a year and a half at chance vought. mr. hubert. i guess prior to that you were going to school? mr. brock. prior to that i worked at lone star gas for approximately a year, and high school before that. mr. hubert. you graduated from high school? mr. brock. yes, sir. mr. hubert. now, what particular part of the police department are you in? mr. brock. radio patrol. mr. hubert. that is under what captain? mr. brock. i work for captain talbert. mr. hubert. cecil talbert? mr. brock. i don't know his first name. mr. hubert. cecil talbert. and are you in one of the prowl cars? mr. brock. yes, sir. mr. hubert. now, i'm going to ask you some questions about november the th. what time did you go on duty that day? mr. brock. : a.m. mr. hubert. then your shift would have ended---- mr. brock. : . mr. hubert. p.m.? mr. brock. yes, sir. mr. hubert. where did you report at : ? mr. brock. well, assembly room, i guess is what you call it. we all reported there. mr. hubert. at the dallas police department? mr. brock. in the basement of the city hall; yes, sir. mr. hubert. then you are assigned to your cars and go cruising? mr. brock. yes, sir. mr. hubert. and you had communication by radio, two men---- mr. brock. we were working two men. mr. hubert. who was with you that day? mr. brock. m. l. wise. mr. hubert. did you actually get out on the streets and start prowling? mr. brock. yes, sir. mr. hubert. then what happened? mr. brock. we received a call from the dispatcher to call , that is radio patrol office. mr. hubert. and did you do that? mr. brock. and we called them and they advised us to come on down there as soon as we could. mr. hubert. what time did you get down there? mr. brock. it was a few minutes after . i don't know exactly. mr. hubert. what prowl car were you driving? do you remember the number of it? mr. brock. we were working squad . that is the number of the squad, not the car. mr. hubert. do you have a different car number every day or drive the same car usually? mr. brock. you mean the same---- mr. hubert. talking about squad --i mean, the automobile has a number on it, doesn't it? mr. brock. yes; i don't recall what the number--we usually have the same one. mr. hubert. same car? what did you do? park your car in the---- mr. brock. we took it down there and parked it in the alley there just north of the--on commerce at pearl street, and walked on down to the city hall. mr. hubert. you parked it on pearl street, or in the alley? mr. brock. in the alley, just north of commerce, just off pearl street. mr. hubert. that is the alleyway that runs from pearl up to the back of the city hall building and then makes a right to main street? mr. brock. yes, sir. mr. hubert. has the form of an l-shape, is that right? mr. brock. yes. mr. hubert. you put it in that alleyway? mr. brock. yes, sir. mr. hubert. did you drive it all the way up that alleyway up there? mr. brock. no, sir; it was down close to the street there. mr. hubert. but, you walked up the alley? mr. brock. no, sir; we walked back out on the street and then down to the building and then---- mr. hubert. you didn't go in the building through the back door. mr. brock. no, sir. mr. hubert. through that back door? mr. brock. no, sir. mr. hubert. did you try the back door? mr. brock. no, sir. mr. hubert. in other words, you all parked your car near pearl street and didn't even walk up or ride up the alley at all? mr. brock. oh, no; we walked back out and went down the street sidewalk. mr. hubert. went down pearl street to commerce? mr. brock. went down commerce, cut across a parking lot to commerce, down to the city hall that way. mr. hubert. and you say it was about what time? mr. brock. a few minutes after . mr. hubert. all right. mr. brock. i don't know exactly. mr. hubert. whom did you report to? what did you do? mr. brock. we reported to patrol office, to lieutenant pierce. mr. hubert. that is rio pierce? mr. brock. yes, sir. mr. hubert. rio pierce, i think you call him? mr. brock. yes, sir. mr. hubert. what orders did he give you? mr. brock. he told us just to sit down there for a few minutes, until they decided what they wanted us to do. then about : , i guess it was, he told me to go down to the basement and report to sergeant dean and sergeant putnam. mr. hubert. that is patrick dean, i think? mr. brock. p. t. dean. mr. hubert. did you report to him? mr. brock. yes, sir. mr. hubert. then what happened? mr. brock. sergeant putnam assigned me on what they call the elevator area there, there in the basement at the east end of the basement. mr. hubert. about what time were you posted there? mr. brock. it would be about : , i would imagine. mr. hubert. what were your orders? mr. brock. to not let anyone in except police officers and members of the press. mr. hubert. into what? mr. brock. into the basement area. mr. hubert. from what? mr. brock. well, about from anywhere--see there was an elevator there that goes to the next floor on it--in the municipal building. mr. hubert. you are talking about the service elevator, are you? mr. brock. yes, sir; there is a service elevator, and the other elevators, they were not working, but the service elevator was the one. mr. hubert. how do you know they weren't working? mr. brock. well, i presumed they wasn't. they never did open the time i was--actual time i was there. mr. hubert. were you aware of a fire staircase in that general area? mr. brock. there was a, i believe it is, right to the--right around the corner from the elevators on the---- mr. hubert. be to your---- mr. brock. be to the left of the elevators, i guess it would be then. mr. hubert. if you were facing the east elevator? mr. brock. yes, sir; i was in a position where i could watch it and the elevator, too. mr. hubert. now, i want--you know, it won't show up on here, so, i want to show you a map or chart of the basement area and in order to identify it so that the record may show that we are both talking about the same thing, i am going to ask you to sign this with me, and i am marking it, "dallas, texas, march , ." this will be exhibit , deposition of a. r. brock. i am signing my name beneath that and i'll ask you to sign your name just for the purposes of identification. and now have a look at the map and i would just like you to put, not one spot, because obviously, you can't stand in one spot, but just sort of draw by making sort of an area, circle or oblong just the way you walked and watched. mr. brock. what i done, i was in a position here. i didn't move out of it. mr. hubert. all right, you can mark it then. just put a circle. mr. brock. i would stay in this position where i could watch the stairs and the elevator, too. mr. hubert. you are facing, most of the time, toward main street? mr. brock. well, i would be facing one or the other there. mr. hubert. where you marked the circle, i am drawing a line from it, then i am writing, "position of a. r. brock during the time he was guarding elevators and staircase." right? mr. brock. yes, sir. mr. hubert. i am putting a circle around that language and connecting it by a line to the circle that you drew showing your position. i think you have testified that all the time you were there, the regular service elevators, which are on this chart, denoted as elevators nos. and , weren't working at all? mr. brock. they never opened them the entire time. mr. hubert. did anybody go up or down the staircase here, which i am marking by putting in "x"? mr. brock. no one went in or downstairs on the staircase. mr. hubert. did you ever--did you observe this first aid station? mr. brock. yes, sir. mr. hubert. did you see anybody come in or go out of that the whole time you were there? mr. brock. at the time that i was assigned there, the doctor was in the first aid station, and sergeant putnam contacted him and told him he would have to leave the basement area. mr. hubert. so, he got out? mr. brock. no one entered after that. mr. hubert. by the way, i think you stated the time that you were posted, but let's repeat it to be sure. mr. brock. i think it was about : . mr. hubert. and you stayed there how long? mr. brock. oh, i believe it was : when i left there. mr. hubert. all right, now. was there any--any people either entered or left this service elevator during the time you were there? mr. brock. when i first got down there there were three city employees and the elevator operator standing there at the door of the elevator around in front, looking around, just seeing what was going on and shortly after i got there, i told them they would have to leave the basement. mr. hubert. were they in some kind of a janitorial uniform so that you could tell that they were employees? mr. brock. i have seen them before. mr. hubert. do you know their names? mr. brock. no, sir; i don't know. mr. hubert. men and women? mr. brock. there was one woman. i haven't seen her before, but from what i gather, the way she was talking to the others, she was a telephone operator there at the city hall. mr. hubert. white woman? mr. brock. yes, sir. mr. hubert. were they all white people? mr. brock. no, sir; there was one building engineer. engineer, i believe, is what he was called--a white man. there was a negro, two negroes, one was the elevator operator, one parked cars in the basement there. mr. hubert. well, you made them all go upstairs? mr. brock. yes, sir. mr. hubert. did they come down any more? mr. brock. the elevator came down one other time. sergeant putnam brought one of the tv men over there, wanted to go up the fourth--fifth floor to do some kind of work with the equipment there, and the elevator come and picked him up and went up and brought him back in a few minutes, and that was the only person went up or down the elevator. mr. hubert. as long as you were there? mr. brock. yes, sir. mr. hubert. did you all give the elevator operator any instructions about what he was to do? mr. brock. we told him to take it up on the first floor and not bring it back in the basement, that is, open the door of it in the basement. mr. hubert. that was after the tv man had been brought up and down? mr. brock. yes, sir. mr. hubert. in other words, at that point, after the tv man had been brought up and down, he was issued instructions, "now, don't come down here any more." mr. brock. yes. mr. hubert. and all the time you stayed there he didn't? mr. brock. it didn't come down any more. mr. hubert. who got off of that spot at : ? mr. brock. sergeant putnam. mr. hubert. where did he put you after that? mr. brock. he assigned me over to a traffic intersection where the auto was going to take to the city jail--county jail. mr. hubert. and you went and helped there? mr. brock. yes, sir. mr. hubert. you drove? mr. brock. my partner drove; m. l. wise drove my car. mr. hubert. dropped you off? mr. brock. yes, sir. mr. hubert. where did he drop you off? mr. brock. elm and ervay. mr. hubert. and you stayed there for how long? mr. brock. until about : . mr. hubert. who relieved you then? mr. brock. : my partner picked me up and reported to parkland. mr. hubert. how long did you stay at parkland? what time did you get there and what time did you leave, we'll put it that way. mr. brock. i would just be guessing. stayed there probably an hour or hour and a half. mr. hubert. did you see any reserve officers around? mr. brock. where? mr. hubert. parkland? mr. brock. there was lots of officers out there. i don't remember seeing any reserve officers out there. mr. hubert. actually, can you tell the difference from the uniforms? mr. brock. yes, sir. mr. hubert. what? the badge? mr. brock. they have a patch on their arm that says, "dallas police reserve officer," or "reserve officer," of some sort and they don't carry guns. all they carry is a nightstick. mr. hubert. do you know a reserve officer by the name of newman? mr. brock. no, sir; i don't. i don't know any of them, i don't guess, by name, that i can recall right now. mr. hubert. all right. did you see another officer on duty in the basement but closer to the ramp that runs between main and commerce? mr. brock. there was a, i believe, a reserve officer standing somewhere in this area. mr. hubert. now, the arrow points--let the record show that the arrow pointed to by the witness is being marked by me with a circle, and i am writing, "position of reserve officer, as testified to by a. r. brock," and i am putting a circle around that language and connecting it with this smaller circle. do you know that reserve officer's name? mr. brock. no, sir; i just noticed him there. i didn't---- mr. hubert. did he stay there about the same time you did? mr. brock. i believe he was still there or somewhere in that area when i left, and there was another reserve officer assigned in this area here [indicating], because he was walking around, back and forth in this area around the staircase and around where i was assigned, also. mr. hubert. well, suppose i draw a line, i will start the line with " ," and---- mr. brock. i would say he went over in this area rather than come up on it this way. mr. hubert. he went out to about the place marked " " and i am putting the number " " and " " in a circle. now, the line " " and " " is where you saw this reserve officer walking up and down? mr. brock. yes, sir. mr. hubert. but, you don't know his name? mr. brock. no, sir. mr. hubert. was he there when you first got there? mr. brock. no, sir. mr. hubert. he came later? was he there when you left? mr. brock. yes, sir. mr. hubert. now, i think you have read these two statements? mr. brock. yes, sir. mr. hubert. i want to mark them for identification as follows: "an fbi report of an interview of you made by fbi agents wilkinson and hardin on december , , for identification. i am marking it, "dallas, tex., march , . exhibit no. , deposition of a. r. brock." and signing my name underneath it. it has two pages, and so, i am placing my initials in the left-hand corner on the second page, and i'm also marking for identification what seems to be a copy of a letter dated november , addressed to chief curry, the original, apparently, has been signed by you, and i am marking it, "dallas, tex., march , , exhibit no. , deposition of a. r. brock." i am signing my name. it has only one page. now, i understand that you have read both of these documents? mr. brock. yes, sir. mr. hubert. have you any comment to make? i would like you to express yourself as to whether those documents represent the truth and are they complete, or do they have omissions or should anything be deleted as wrong or just tell me your thoughts about the documents dealing first with the fbi report which has been marked " "? mr. brock. these are true, to the best of my memory. mr. hubert. is that true of , too? mr. brock. that would be the other one? yes, sir. mr. hubert. have you any comment to make on these? do you think they represent what you know? mr. brock. yes, sir; they--i think they represent all that i know about it. mr. hubert. would you say that between those two documents, to wit, , , and the material we got on the chart and your deposition, itself, that we now know just everything you know about the matter? mr. brock. yes, sir. mr. hubert. all right, sir; do you care to add anything else in any way? mr. brock. no, sir; i don't know of anything else that would---- mr. hubert. all right. now, have you been interviewed by me or any other member of the commission staff prior to the starting of this deposition? mr. brock. no, sir. mr. hubert. all right, that's all. thank you. testimony of detective b. h. combest the testimony of detective b. h. combest was taken at a.m., on march , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. leon d. hubert, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. hubert. this is the deposition of b. h. combest. mr. combest, my name is leon d. hubert, and i am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the president's commission. under the provisions of executive order , dated november , , joint resolution of congress no. , and the rules of procedure adopted by the president's commission in conformance with the executive order and the joint resolution i have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you. i state to you that the general nature of the commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of president kennedy and the subsequent violent death of lee harvey oswald. in particular as to you, mr. combest, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. mr. combest, you appeared here today by virtue of a general request made to your chief curry by mr. j. lee rankin, general counsel on the staff of the president's commission. under the rules adopted by the commission, you are entitled to a -day written notice prior to the taking of the deposition, but the rules, however, also provide that a witness may waive this notice. are you willing now to waive the -day notice? mr. combest. yes, sir. mr. hubert. will you raise your right hand to be sworn, please? mr. combest. yes, sir. mr. hubert. do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. combest. yes. mr. hubert. will you please state your name, sir? mr. combest. billy h. combest. mr. hubert. now, your name is billy and not william? mr. combest. yes, sir; it is billy. mr. hubert. and your age? mr. combest. thirty-three. mr. hubert. where do you reside, sir? mr. combest. linhaven, mesquite, tex. mr. hubert. mesquite, tex. mr. combest. yes, sir. mr. hubert. what is your occupation, sir? mr. combest. detective for the city of dallas police department. mr. hubert. and how long have you been so employed? mr. combest. with the department a little over years. i have been a detective about years. mr. hubert. were you on duty on sunday, november th, ? mr. combest. yes, sir, i was. mr. hubert. was that one of your regular working days or had you been called in specially? mr. combest. no, my regular working day. mr. hubert. do you know jack ruby? mr. combest. yes, sir; i did. mr. hubert. how well did you know him? mr. combest. well, i knew him very well by sight. i had seen him numerous occasions before, over a period of approximately , - / years. i knew him through business with the--checking his location for violations, routine checks by the police. mr. hubert. would there be any doubt that you would recognize him as soon as you saw him? mr. combest. no, sir. mr. hubert. you would recognize him even in a crowd of people? mr. combest. yes, sir; i would have. mr. hubert. would it make any difference in your recognition if he had a hat on or not? mr. combest. no, sir. mr. hubert. now, mr. combest, i ask you to identify some documents and in order for the record to show that we are talking about the same thing, i am going to mark them. i now mark what appears to be a copy of a letter dated november , , addressed to j. e. curry, chief of police, and the original apparently was signed by you, as, "dallas, texas, march , . exhibit no. . deposition of b. h. combest." i am signing my name leon d. hubert, jr., on the first page. on the second page, i am placing my initials in the lower right-hand corner. i am also marking for identification what purports to be a report of the fbi of an interview with you by special agents dallman and quigley on december , , consisting of four pages, putting on this first page, in the right side margin the following, "dallas, texas, march , . exhibit no. . deposition of b. h. combest." i am signing my name on the first page below that and placing my initials in the lower right-hand corner of the three succeeding pages. now, mr. combest, you have read the letter dated november , addressed to chief curry, which i have marked exhibit . does that document represent the truth, so far as you know it? mr. combest. yes, sir. mr. hubert. have you any comments to make about it? mr. combest. no, sir. mr. hubert. all right. now let's turn to a document which i have marked , which is the fbi report, and i will ask you if you have read that? mr. combest. yes, sir; i have. mr. hubert. if you have any comments to make on that, corrections, deletions, anything been omitted? mr. combest. well---- mr. hubert. in other words, i want to know whether this represents a true, full statement of the interview and what you said, or didn't say, and let's have an explanation of it. mr. combest. okay, sir. on the fourth page there, the third paragraph where---- mr. hubert. yes. mr. combest. they relate to the person named as newman. they misunderstood me, evidently, on that. he does work at the theatre lounge as it so states there, but ruby does not have anything to do with the theatre lounge. this is another so-called strip joint in the downtown area. mr. hubert. here is the sentence we are talking about. "he did recall, however, that an individual by the name of newman, first name unknown, was formerly district supervisor for the liquor control board, worked for ruby at the theatre lounge." now, your statement is that that is an incorrect statement of what you said? mr. combest. yes, sir. mr. hubert. will you correct it, please? mr. combest. well, the question was did i know of any police officers that had worked for ruby. mr. hubert. yes. mr. combest. at the time i told him, "no," i did not and i explained possibly where they had gotten their information was that a reserve police officer had made a statement to some news media that he had worked for jack ruby, but he is not a regular policeman for the city of dallas, and i also told him that possibly what they had heard that this l. l. newman, who formerly worked for the texas liquor control board was working at the theatre lounge in the downtown area, and possibly that was what they had heard. mr. hubert. in other words, you actually told them that there were two newmans involved, one who had been a reserve officer---- mr. combest. no, sir; i do not recall the name of the reserve officer. mr. hubert. two different individuals, one, who had been a reserve officer and one who had been with the texas liquor control board? mr. combest. yes, sir. mr. hubert. and your statement to them was that possibly what they were thinking about when they were questioning you was that the newman who had worked for the texas liquor control board was the one you thought had once worked for the theatre lounge? mr. combest. yes, sir. mr. hubert. now, did ruby have any connection with the theatre lounge? mr. combest. no, sir; none whatsoever. mr. hubert. who did, as a matter of fact? mr. combest. it is either abe or barney weinstein. one of the brothers owned the theatre lounge. one of the brothers owns the colony club. mr. hubert. now, i think that perhaps i should call your attention to the next sentence, too, because you may want to correct it in the light of this testimony. the next sentence which is the last sentence of the very top paragraph of the last page of exhibit reads as follows: "newman terminated his employment with the state about a year and a half ago and it would have been possibly about that time that he started working for ruby." mr. combest. no; there again, evidently they misunderstood me. it was possibly that time that he went to work for the theatre lounge. mr. hubert. all right. have you any other comments to make with reference to the fbi report, which is exhibit ? mr. combest. well, i believe it is on page , first paragraph, in--where they say, i didn't--didn't observe ruby make any statement at the time of the shooting, could not recall ruby making statements. mr. hubert. all right. now, i understand that you wish to comment on or make some correction in a sentence on the third page of exhibit , which sentence begins on the sixth line from the top of the page and reads as follows: "as best he could recall ruby had what could be described as a determined look, or grimace on his face, and he could recall ruby making no statement in conjunction with his action." now, i understand you want to comment on that sentence? mr. combest. yes, sir; it may be correct as it is said there. i don't--the way i was--the way i say it is not exactly the way i meant it. i told them he was talking. he was making statements but i could not recall anything word by word to tell them or any exact words that he said at the time. mr. hubert. well, i suppose that is true now, that you can't recall any exact words that he said at the time. mr. combest. yes. mr. hubert. but, can you tell us without using the exact words, the sense of what he was saying? mr. combest. well, it appeared to me that at the time he was cursing oswald, but again, i wasn't close enough to hear the words, his exact words. i could tell he was talking, tell he was making some statements, but i cannot recall anything he said exactly. i wasn't that close. mr. hubert. i see. in other words, what you are really changing to, instead of the affirmative statement that you couldn't recall ruby making any statement, you are changing it to say you think he was saying something but you couldn't hear? mr. combest. yes, sir; that's right. mr. hubert. what other corrections do you have then? mr. combest. that's all i have, sir. mr. hubert. with the corrections that you have noted in the fbi report, which have been marked for identification as exhibit , did you consider that the fbi report is a fair statement of what you said to the fbi agent involved? mr. combest. yes, sir; i do. mr. hubert. and it represents the truth? mr. combest. yes, sir. mr. hubert. now, and so that the record may show that we are both speaking of the same document, i would like you to sign your name below mine here on exhibit and initial the second page below my initial, and do the same thing with exhibit . mr. combest. yes, sir. did you say that there was four pages on that earlier? there are five, i believe, aren't there? mr. hubert. beg your pardon, sure are. it has been brought to my attention that exhibit , which i have previously identified as having four pages, in fact, has five, and i notice now that i have failed to place my initial on the second page, apparently having missed it, so, i now place my initial on the second page. all being initialed now. i have marked for identification a chart, or floor plan of the dallas police department basement area showing the jail office, the parking area, down ramp from the main street, the upper ramp to commerce street, and for the purpose of identification with this testimony, i have marked this document as follows: "dallas, texas, march , . exhibit . deposition of b. h. combest." i have signed my name under that in order also that we may recognize that we are talking about the same document. i will ask you to put your signature below mine on that document, sir. when did you first learn about the time of the plan to transfer oswald? mr. combest. sometime late the preceding day that i heard it through the news media that we were going to transfer him the next morning, and i don't recall the exact time, but the time of transfer was supposed to be pretty early the next morning, the way i understood it. mr. hubert. you mean or ? mr. combest. well, or . mr. hubert. what time did you come on duty? mr. combest. i believe it was o'clock in the morning. mr. hubert. didn't your shift go on at , your regular shift? mr. combest. no, sir. mr. hubert. on sunday it begins at---- mr. combest. we have a to , and a to squad working sundays. mr. hubert. well, i know that, the fbi report indicates that. but, you reported to central police headquarters at a.m.? mr. combest. no, sir; i overlooked that. mr. hubert. that is incorrect then? mr. combest. yes, sir. mr. hubert. so, you want to change the first sentence of the third paragraph on the first page? exhibit which states you reported at a.m., to show that you reported at a.m., on that sunday, november ? mr. combest. yes, sir. mr. hubert. did you have any particular assignment as to the transfer of oswald? mr. combest. no, sir; not before, just shortly before the transfer. mr. hubert. in other words, from o'clock when you reported until you were given the assignment which we are going to in a minute, you went about your normal duties? mr. combest. yes, sir. mr. hubert. now, who gave you that particular assignment and what was it? mr. combest. well, it was captain jones who works in the forgery bureau of the dallas police department. he came through the basement of the jail and talked to detective beaty and officer j. d. hutchinson and, i believe, some other officers there at the time, and told us to remain in the basement and we would be given more specific orders shortly. mr. hubert. what time was that about? mr. combest. i would have to refer to my letter there. i don't remember at this time. mr. hubert. the letter says : approximately : , is that about right? mr. combest. yes. mr. hubert. what did you do? mr. combest. we remained there in the basement and shortly captain jones came back off the elevator with what appeared to be all the onduty officers in the building at that time. he told us to go outside the jail office in the parking area and into the basement, itself, and there he would station us. mr. hubert. did he do so? mr. combest. yes, sir; he did. when he got outside he told us to form a line either side of the passageway leading into the ramp where the vehicles were parked to transfer oswald, and he gave us orders not to let anyone rush in, not let the lines close in. he also told us to make sure that they didn't fall in behind him, to follow him out after they had passed. mr. hubert. so, there was a line formed on either side of the jail corridor from the jail door to the basement area where the car was to transport oswald? mr. combest. yes, sir. mr. hubert. now, if you will step over here, please, and have a look at this mockup here. first of all, this is the inside jail office. this is really--this is the corridor swinging door. this is the outside corridor of the jail door. now, looking at this first, try to fix your position and then i'm going to ask you to place your position on this map once you have related this map to the mockup, so we will have a record on this map of where you were. mr. combest. yes, sir; would have been standing just about here [indicating], just almost to the corner. mr. hubert. now, i am placing--is this it? mr. combest. yes, sir. mr. hubert. i am placing a circle where you say you were standing. that is just off the corner of the intersection formed by the jail corridor and the basement ramp, but toward the swinging door in the basement and the jail office? mr. combest. yes, sir. mr. hubert. right? mr. combest. yes, sir. mr. hubert. and, i'm going to put there, "position of combest as stationed by jones." is that correct? mr. combest. yes, sir. mr. hubert. i am circling that language and attaching the language to the circle that you have indicated. now, what time did you reach the position that we just marked on the map? mr. combest. it would have been approximately minutes before the shooting, which would have placed it at , wouldn't it? a.m. mr. hubert. did you remain at that position until the shooting? mr. combest. yes, sir; i did. mr. hubert. of course, i understand that you didn't remain absolutely still, but you didn't walk around? mr. combest. no, sir; i stayed in that immediate area right there. mr. hubert. do you remember who was on your right? mr. combest. r. l. lowery. detective r. l. lowery. mr. hubert. i am going to mark his position. that would have put him almost---- mr. combest. right at the corner. mr. hubert. right at the corner? mr. combest. yes, sir. mr. hubert. i am marking that, encircling the language, "position of r. l. lowery," and do you remember who was to your left? mr. combest. detective beaty, detective b. l. beaty. mr. hubert. you were facing in the direction of the main street ramp, in the parking area on the main street side of the building? mr. combest. yes, sir. mr. hubert. and you were there for approximately minutes? mr. combest. yes, sir. mr. hubert. could you see out into the parking area on the main street side of the building? mr. combest. no, sir; i could not. they completely blocked me, television cameras and newsmen on this side--on this side of the rail, and of down in the basement, itself. mr. hubert. i am marking an area which i am going to call "area b," with an oblong circle. is that the area you are talking about? mr. combest. yes, sir. mr. hubert. and you say that "area b," had television cameras and personnel attending them? mr. combest. yes, sir. mr. hubert. and other people there, so that you were unable to see into the parking area, is that correct? mr. combest. that's correct. mr. hubert. now, i'm going to mark another area, "area a," and ask if there were any people standing in that area? mr. combest. yes; there were. mr. hubert. roughly, how many? mr. combest. there were several officers standing here [indicating]. there were some---- mr. hubert. when you say "here," you are just pointing to the commerce street side of the area that i have marked "area a"? mr. combest. yes, sir; also down the line. mr. hubert. in other words, they were on the opposite side of the corridor from you? mr. combest. yes, sir. mr. hubert. a semicircle curving toward commerce street? mr. combest. yes, sir. mr. hubert. and i'm marking a line, which i am going to start off at a point called " ," and have it curve over to a point called " ," is that approximately the line you are talking about? mr. combest. yes, sir. mr. hubert. now, on that line from " ," to " " you say there were a number of detectives, or members of the police department? mr. combest. yes, sir. mr. hubert. did you recognize any of them? mr. combest. well, i remember "blackie," that is the nickname, harrison. mr. hubert. that is w. j. harrison? mr. combest. yes, sir; i believe it is. mr. hubert. where was he, about? mr. combest. i don't recall exactly. i know that he was on that side, and i lost contact with him as soon as oswald started out. i don't remember if he had moved, or if he was still standing directly across. mr. hubert. he was in front of the people that i have marked here in "area b," and "area a"? mr. combest. yes, sir. mr. hubert. well, other than the detective, how many people do you suppose were in that "area a," right back of the curving line marked " " to " "? mr. combest. it would be an estimate on it at this time. i don't recall. there were several. i would say , at least. mr. hubert. do you think they were standing shoulder to shoulder? mr. combest. yes; it was pretty crowded all the way around. mr. hubert. that would make about what, two or three ranks of people? mr. combest. i don't recall exactly. i know there was a very large crowd in the basement that day. mr. hubert. you are talking about the whole basement? mr. combest. yes, sir. mr. hubert. were there any people in the area which i am marking roughly by an oblong figure, "area c," which is the ramp leading from the parking area into main street, commerce street ramp? mr. combest. yes, sir; there were. mr. hubert. did you go in there, too? mr. combest. yes, sir; there were several people there, newsmen and also, several officers stationed in that area out there. mr. hubert. now, were the television lights on all the time you were standing there? mr. combest. yes, sir. mr. hubert. did they bother you? mr. combest. yes, sir; they did. mr. hubert. in what way? mr. combest. well, when we first came downstairs it was a little hard to distinguish faces in this area here [indicating]. mr. hubert. "area b," the witness is pointing to "area b." mr. combest. and until you got used to them it was pretty hard to look into them. mr. hubert. did you get used to them? mr. combest. yes, sir; i was pretty well used to them at the time the actual transfer took place. mr. hubert. so, you could distinguish faces of people in "area b"? mr. combest. yes, sir. mr. hubert. could you distinguish faces in "area a"? mr. combest. yes, sir. mr. hubert. the lights gave you no trouble by the time the transfer actually took place, is that correct? mr. combest. yes, sir; that's correct. mr. hubert. all right. when did you first see ruby in that crowd? mr. combest. just as they started to lead oswald past me, at the corner there i observed him lunge from the crowd. almost the whole line of people pushed forward when oswald started to leave the jail office, the door, the hall--all the newsmen were poking their sound mikes across to him and asking questions, and they were everyone sticking their flashbulbs up and around and over him and in his face. i don't--when he first lunged forward i don't think anyone noticed him. i didn't until he came apart from the crowd and continued on towards oswald. mr. hubert. now, did he come from the area--we have marked on this exhibit as "area a" or as "area b," sir? mr. combest. the best i could tell he would be coming approximately half way between them there, between what you have marked as "area a," and "area b." mr. hubert. sort of from the corner there? mr. combest. yes, sir. mr. hubert. i would like for you to take the pen and mark an "x" on the spot that you first saw ruby. mr. combest. about approximately [indicating], because---- mr. hubert. this was really the front line " ," through " ." mr. combest. yes, sir. mr. hubert. and i'm writing on the map, "position where ruby was first seen by combest." was he standing still then? mr. combest. no, sir; he was stepping forward and--or lunging forward, i guess would be the best way to put it. mr. hubert. you had not seen him, of course, prior to that moment? mr. combest. no, sir; i had not. mr. hubert. had you seen him in the crowd at all? mr. combest. no, sir; i had not. mr. hubert. had you seen him coming down? mr. combest. no, sir; when i was standing with the crowd i couldn't see the ramp there, the main street ramp. mr. hubert. you could see a part of it, couldn't you, the bottom? mr. combest. well, no, sir; it slanted up and they had an air conditioner sitting across here where you have to be almost in your--standing directly in the bottom of the ramp you couldn't see the top of it very clearly. mr. hubert. but, you testified that you knew ruby's face well enough so that you could distinguish it in a crowd? mr. combest. yes, sir. mr. hubert. you had looked into that crowd and your eyes had become accustomed to the lights? mr. combest. yes, sir. mr. hubert. now, i ask you if you saw him in the crowd before he lunged forward? mr. combest. no, sir. mr. hubert. do you think you would have seen him had he been in that crowd during the minutes or so prior to that shot, the shooting? mr. combest. quite possibly if he had been there very long i believe i would have spotted him. i might not have, but knowing that he didn't belong there i believe i would have spotted him right off. mr. hubert. well, now, what precautions were taken to assure that people who did not belong there would not be there? mr. combest. well, everyone that went out into the basement from the jail office had to have the press card, proper identification showing that they were members of the press and police officers. other than that no one was admitted to the basement parking area. mr. hubert. what kind of press cards were honored, and what were dishonored? mr. combest. well, most of the news personnel there had the--had a press card for that--i don't remember the wording. it was something about--"presidential press party," or something that they had. of course, it was recognized and then any other card that did have their picture on it, and it had to say they were a member of a press, any newspaper. i remember the oklahoma city newspaper came in, and they were admitted with their press cards. mr. hubert. did they have to have their picture on the press cards? mr. combest. the ones i checked, i remember now i wasn't actually stationed there at the cars. there were two uniformed officers here who were actually doing the checking. of course, i did check some to expedite travel through that narrow corridor. mr. hubert. what i'm trying to get at, there were no particular press cards issued for this particular occasion? mr. combest. not that i recall; no, sir. not that i know of. mr. hubert. do you remember any instances in which you were involved or in which you observed in which persons who were not properly--who didn't have a press card, were removed or questioned? mr. combest. yes, sir; in my letter there to chief curry i recall there was a girl that worked at the police information desk, which is in the basement, by the records bureau, had went out into the basement, at least on one occasion to summon officers that were wanted on the telephone. on the next time that i noticed her start to go into there, she was stopped by sergeant putnam, as i recall it. he advised her that she would not go into the basement if she had messages to officers that were in the basement, and she was not to leave her assignment behind the information desk until the transfer was over. also, to a civilian employee that worked in the jail booking office proper. he had came out into the parking basement, appeared to have a look around to see what was going on. he was told to get back behind the desk in the jail booking office and remain there until after the transfer was over. also, one other incident, i think i have also put in my letter there and regarding a reporter for the oklahoma city news, i believe his name is jim standard. he did not have a press card. he was stopped and questioned, but he did have proper identification to prove that he did work for the oklahoma city newspaper. he had a hospitalization card made out to a group policy of this newspaper in oklahoma city. had some letters and correspondence to him, addressed to him at that location, and after convincing myself and beaty, he convinced captain talbert that he was a legitimate member of the press and he was admitted. two or days after the incident i was in oklahoma city and i saw the article he had written showing this incident in dallas and his picture was also in the oklahoma city paper, and i remembered him. i recognized him. and he wrote a pretty good article on the security in the basement. mr. hubert. did you speak to ruby after the shooting? mr. combest. no, sir. mr. hubert. did you hear him say anything? mr. combest. again, i heard him talking when he came into the jail office proper, where the booking office is located. as i recall it, they laid him on the floor to put the handcuffs on him more securely. he was talking then as they led him past the spot where oswald was laying, near the elevator, to take him to jail. he was also talking. he was looking in the direction of oswald and was talking to the officers that were leading him away. i don't recall any specific statement he made. mr. hubert. did you hear oswald say anything? mr. combest. no, sir. he--i didn't hear him say a word hardly, after he had been shot. he was moaning at the time jimmy leavelle, graves, and i laid him down on the floor and removed the handcuffs that he had on him. mr. hubert. that was in the jail office? mr. combest. yes, sir. at the time i asked him and talked to him trying to get him to make a statement to me at the time. especially, after i realized how serious the wound was. when we first asked him he appeared to comprehend what i was saying. mr. hubert. what did you ask him? mr. combest. well, i told him was there anything that he wanted me to tell anybody or was there anything he wanted to say right now before it was too late, and i don't remember my--exactly the words that i did say to him, but after i realized the seriousness of the wound, of course, trying to let him know if he was ever going to say anything he was going to have to say it then. mr. hubert. you thought he was dying? mr. combest. yes, sir; i did. mr. hubert. and do you think you used language to him to convey to him your idea that he was dying? mr. combest. yes, sir. mr. hubert. did you get any indication that he actually understood what you were trying to convey to him? mr. combest. when i first started asking him he did. he looked up at me, seemed to recognize that i--who was talking to him. mr. hubert. you don't mean that he recognized you as a person? mr. combest. he recognized that i was the person talking to him. mr. hubert. but, he didn't say anything? mr. combest. no, sir; just shook his head and i said, "do you have anything you want to tell us now," and he shook his head. mr. hubert. he did not say the word "no"? mr. combest. no, sir; he did not say anything at all. mr. hubert. did you indicate to him that if he had any accomplices or wanted to clarify the shooting of the president, that he had better do it right quick? mr. combest. not in those words. i didn't mention "accomplice," or anything. i was real excited at the time but i kept talking to him as long as i thought that he would try to answer me, hoping that he would give a dying declaration on the shooting. mr. hubert. and you think you used language sufficiently clear to him to indicate to him that in your opinion he was dying and on account of the fact that he was dying it was just about the last time he would have a chance to say anything about the shooting of the president, or the shooting? mr. combest. yes, sir; that's correct. mr. hubert. did you see ruby thereafter? mr. combest. what was the question, sir? mr. hubert. did you see ruby, thereafter? mr. combest. i didn't see him until after he had passed through the jail office. now, in the jail elevator. the next time i saw him at the preliminary hearing in judge brown's office in the court house. mr. hubert. you didn't hear him say anything else? mr. combest. no, sir. mr. hubert. had you heard anything that would indicate to you that any member of the police department actually saw ruby in the garage prior to the shooting? mr. combest. no, sir; not on this day, this particular day. mr. hubert. i am talking about this day. mr. combest. no, sir. mr. hubert. did any member of the police department ask you whether you had seen ruby prior to the shooting? mr. combest. yes, sir. mr. hubert. who was that? mr. combest. lieutenant revill, jack revill and lieutenant cornwall. now, they were members of a group that were investigating within the police department, and i was interrogated by them as to if i had seen him that day. mr. hubert. and your answer was the same as it was---- mr. combest. yes, sir; it was "no." mr. hubert. was there any suggestion by these gentlemen or anybody else that you should say that you had not seen him? mr. combest. no, sir; none whatsoever. mr. hubert. have you any other statements or comments that you would like to make that have not been said or reported in any way that you know of by you concerning the matter that we have been talking about this morning? mr. combest. no, sir; i don't know. mr. hubert. it is your opinion, and concerning your letter, which has been identified as , the fbi report of the interview with you which has been identified as , and this deposition today represents all you know about this, completely? mr. combest. yes, sir; it does. mr. hubert. and all of it is correct and true? mr. combest. yes, sir; it is. mr. hubert. all right, sir. now, has there been any interview between me and you, or you and any other member of the commission's staff other than this deposition this morning? mr. combest. no, sir; there have not. mr. hubert. thank you very much, sir. testimony of kenneth hudson croy the testimony of kenneth hudson croy was taken at : p.m., on march , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. burt w. griffin, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. griffin. my name is burt griffin, and i am a member of the advisory staff to the general counsel of the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy. this commission was set up under presidential resolution no. , signed by president johnson on november , , and also pursuant to a joint resolution of congress no. . as a result of this presidential executive order and the presidential resolution, the commission has been given authority to promulgate certain rules of procedure, and i have been authorized in accordance with those rules to take your sworn deposition, mr. croy. i want to explain to you a little bit first before we go forward with the deposition of what this testimony, why we are taking the testimony. the commission has been set up for the purpose of investigating, evaluating, and reporting back to the president on all of the facts surrounding the assassination of president kennedy and the subsequent murder of lee harvey oswald. we are particularly concerned here today in calling you, with delving into the events surrounding oswald's death, although if you have any other information that you feel would be useful to us in any other areas of our inquiry, we would like very much to have that. now, i also want to explain to you, mr. croy, that you have been asked to appear here today as a result of a letter which was sent by mr. j. lee rankin, who is the general counsel of the commission, to chief curry, and your name was listed on that and chief curry arranged to set up the schedule. i should tell you that under the rules of the commission you are actually entitled to get a -day written notice before we can require you to appear here. however, we do have a provision in the rules that permit you to waive the notice if you are agreeable to it. now, the first thing i want to do is ask you if you would like us to send you the letter, and i want to make it clear that we do send these letters out as a routine matter, and if for any reason you feel that you would like to have advance notice and so forth, that we haven't really given you, why feel free to tell me now. mr. croy. no; i would just have to come back down here. mr. griffin. then you are willing to waive? mr. croy. yes. mr. griffin. i also want to explain to you that you have a right to be represented by counsel before this commission and again, many of the people are represented by counsel. i want you to understand that we, in fact, encourage people to come here with an attorney if they feel there is any reason at all that it might be useful to them. i see that you are not here with an attorney right now, and i presume that this is of your own choice. however, if you would like to have an attorney, i wish you would let me know about it and we would be happy to make arrangements for further time when you could have one. mr. croy. i don't see what i would need an attorney for. mr. griffin. well, i think in most cases it is not really necessary, except from the attorney's standpoint. mr. croy. he gets paid for doing nothing anyway. mr. griffin. well, some of them do. mr. croy. this one does. mr. griffin. are you an attorney? mr. croy. no. i have my own attorney. mr. griffin. i shouldn't have asked that question. all right, if it is agreeable with you, i will ask you to raise your right hand and i will administer the oath. do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. croy. yes. mr. griffin. will you give us your full name? mr. croy. kenneth hudson croy. mr. griffin. where do you live? mr. croy. glenfield. mr. griffin. is that in dallas? mr. croy. dallas, tex. mr. griffin. when were you born? mr. croy. february , . mr. griffin. what is your occupation? mr. croy. i have several. mr. griffin. let's have them in order. mr. croy. i am in the real estate business. i have a mobil service station. i am in the steel erection business. and i am a professional cowboy, and that is about it that i can think of right now. mr. griffin. we yankees up north don't know what professional cowboys are. mr. croy. rodeo. you got rodeos up north. mr. griffin. yes; they come up once in a while and alternate with circuses. how long have you been doing that? mr. croy. oh, about years. mr. griffin. i would not like to waste all the court reporter's time talking about this, i don't think the commission would probably be too interested. are you also connected in some way with the dallas police department? mr. croy. i am in the reserves. mr. griffin. how long have you been in the reserves. mr. croy. since august of . mr. griffin. do you hold any rank in the reserves? mr. croy. i am a sergeant. mr. griffin. now, i am going to take out a little time here and mark two documents. one of them is a report of an interview that you had on december , , with fbi agents john e. dallman and r. neil quigley. i have marked this particular document that i just referred to "dallas, tex., mr. croy, - - , exhibit ." i want to hand this to you, mr. croy, and ask you if you have had an opportunity to read that over? mr. croy. yes. mr. griffin. let me ask you this: do you have any additions, deletions, or corrections that you feel should be made in that report? mr. croy. no. mr. griffin. if you are satisfied with the report, let me ask you then to sign it and date it. mr. croy. where at? mr. griffin. on the front page there some place near where we have marked it with an exhibit number, some conspicuous spot. mr. croy. [signs name.] mr. griffin. now, i am marking what purports to be a copy of a letter dated november , , addressed to chief curry and signed by you in the following manner: "dallas, tex., mr. croy, - - , exhibit ." would you look at this, mr. croy, and would you tell me if you have had an opportunity to read that over? mr. croy. yes; i have. mr. griffin. are there any additions, deletions, or corrections that you would make with the respect to the accuracy of that letter? mr. croy. no. mr. griffin. okay, would you sign that and date it also in the same manner that you did the other one? mr. croy. [signs and dates.] mr. griffin. now, i have also marked for identification what purports to be a copy of an affidavit in fact, sworn to before a. l. curtis, a notary public, by you on december , , and i have marked that "dallas, tex., mr. croy, - - , exhibit ." i am going to hand you that, mr. croy, and ask you if you have had an opportunity to look that over? mr. croy. yes; i have. mr. griffin. now, is that a true and accurate copy of an affidavit which you prepared on that date? mr. croy. yes, sir. mr. griffin. would you then sign it and date it, please? mr. croy. [signs and dates.] mr. griffin. did you report to the jail or the police department on sunday, november ? mr. croy. yes; i did. mr. griffin. about what time did you come in, do you recall? mr. croy. no; i don't. mr. griffin. well, your letter of november indicates you came in at : ? mr. croy. that is probable. mr. griffin. now, sometime after you came in, you were assigned to guard a particular area of the basement; is that correct? mr. croy. no. mr. griffin. would you tell us what you were assigned to do? mr. croy. when i came into the city hall, i went to the assembly room, and that is where any initial assignments are made, in the assembly room, making up the muster and the roster of the reserve officers that arrived. mr. griffin. how long did you remain there? mr. croy. well, i was in and out of there, between there and the basement. mr. griffin. how long did you remain on that duty? mr. croy. i never was relieved from that duty. i went in there, but i never was relieved from it. mr. griffin. now, you have stated in your letter to chief curry of november , , in paragraph , "i was assigned to the basement and jail office entrance, and my assignment was that of a guard." mr. croy. well, that was in the entire thing down there is what--everyone in the basement was considered a guard at the same time, if you are standing in front of the entrances, elevators, or in the back of the basement. mr. griffin. so you never had any particular station of duty there? mr. croy. no. i wasn't just assigned a spot and told to stay there. mr. griffin. now, did there come a time when you stationed yourself at the foot of the main street ramp in the basement? mr. croy. yes. mr. griffin. about when was that? for how long before oswald came out, would you estimate? mr. croy. well, i couldn't really estimate, because it has been almost months ago and i don't really know how long it was. mr. griffin. well, when you took up your position at the base of the ramp, had the armored car arrived? mr. croy. yes. mr. griffin. the armored car was already there? you weren't there at any time when the armored car was not there? mr. croy. no. mr. griffin. all right. can you give us any statement of how long you were there? were you there for minutes prior to the time oswald came down? mr. croy. i was longer than that. mr. griffin. were you there minutes? mr. croy. i couldn't say. i don't remember whether i was. mr. griffin. you think you were there as long as minutes? mr. croy. yes. mr. griffin. how about as long as minutes? mr. croy. i couldn't say that. mr. griffin. did you remain in one general area when you stationed yourself at the bottom of the main street ramp? mr. croy. yes. mr. griffin. how did you come to be stationed at that position? mr. croy. there was another officer, a regular officer, i believe, commented that they needed at least three more officers at that particular position. mr. griffin. do you recall who that regular officer was? mr. croy. no; i don't. i don't even know who he was. i just remember there was a regular officer, supervisory officer in uniform stated they needed at least three more. mr. griffin. did he state this to you personally, or were you in a group at that time? mr. croy. i was just standing out there on this ramp leading into the basement where the two ramps lead down into the basement, and he stepped out there, and as well as i remember, just made a quick check and pointed out that he needed at least three men at that location. mr. griffin. well, from the time that you finished doing your clerical work when you first came in, until you all were ultimately stationed at the base of the main street ramp, did you have any particular responsibilities? mr. croy. yes. there were several reserve officers that were coming right directly into the basement, and the first reported to the assembly room to get their assignments or be told what to do. i would take these men and take them in there and get them mustered in on the roster so we would know they were there and have a record. i would either tell them where to report, or take them to a certain station and station them there. mr. griffin. all right, do you recall if you were in the basement when captain jones was there? mr. croy. no; i don't. mr. griffin. do you recall if you were in the basement when a group of regular police officers, detectives and so forth came into the basement from the public elevators that go up into the police building, and walked through the swinging door and were given assignments by a regular officer of some sort? were you there at that time? mr. croy. i don't guess i was; i don't recall it at all. mr. griffin. all right. now, while you were stationed at the base of the main street ramp, do you recall if you saw any cars go in and out of the basement? mr. croy. there was one. mr. griffin. you saw one car? mr. croy. yes. mr. griffin. now, during the period that you were in the basement generally before you were stationed at the ramp, did you see any cars go in and out of the garage or basement area? mr. croy. yes. mr. griffin. can you describe how much traffic there was? mr. croy. no. there wasn't any squads bringing prisoners in, that i recall. i don't recall any of that. i recall one car leaving, going up the south ramp, one car that i know of, because i knew who was in that car. and other than that one and the one that went up the north ramp, i don't recall any other cars going out of the basement area. there could have been. mr. griffin. now, how much before you saw that one last car go up the main street ramp, how long would you say you had been in the basement? how long before that had you been at your station in the basement? mr. croy. what do you mean? mr. griffin. let me start over again. how long had you been at this station which you had at the base of the main street ramp prior to the time that the last car went up the main street ramp? mr. croy. how long had i been in the basement before then? mr. griffin. how long had you been in the general area at the base of the ramp? continuously? mr. croy. i don't know, i guess a couple or minutes, something like that. i remember that because he nearly ran over my toes. mr. griffin. while you were standing at the base of the ramp prior to the time that the car went up the ramp, do you remember whether any equipment of any sort was moved into the basement area? mr. croy. equipment? mr. griffin. yes. mr. croy. just anything moved in there? mr. griffin. yes. mr. croy. no. mr. griffin. do you recall any activities of newspaper people or of tv people? mr. croy. oh, they were milling all over the place. mr. griffin. do you recall any movement of equipment? mr. croy. no. mr. griffin. do you remember a tv camera being rolled through the swinging double doors at the entrance, almost at the entrance to the main street ramp or the bottom ramp, and being wheeled in any direction? being pushed, a tv camera? mr. croy. i don't recall any bringing in there. they had them down there in the basement all morning, that i remember. i don't remember bringing in any more in there. mr. griffin. where do you recall the three tv cameras being stationed there? at this point i would like to hand you my pen and ask you if you would mark on there? mr. croy. you want an "x"? mr. griffin. make a rectangle and write tv inside of it. mr. croy. [marks.] mr. griffin. now, you have indicated on the map that there were two behind the railing, sort of directly opposite the hallway that leads out from the double doors? mr. croy. yes. mr. griffin. and that there was a third one over against the railing of the entrance to the garage closer to commerce street? mr. croy. yes. mr. griffin. are you sure that all of those were placed in that position that they were in, or do you think they could have been someplace else? mr. croy. they were placed there when i walked in the basement. mr. griffin. i see. would you tell us what happened at the time that this automobile went up the main street ramp? which side of the automobile were you standing on? were you standing between it and the railing, or were you standing between it and the wall? mr. croy. it and the wall on the left hand side of the car. mr. griffin. about how many people were in that area, would you say, in the general area across from the wall that you were near, and the railing across? mr. croy. police officers and press? mr. griffin. how many would you say were there? mr. croy. i couldn't say. i don't know. there was several there. they were all standing out in here, and when the car came out, everybody had to get out of the way and let the car get through. mr. griffin. did you make any effort to help push the people back? mr. croy. no. mr. griffin. as cars went up the ramp and got ahead of you people, what did you do? mr. croy. i watched it go up the ramp. mr. griffin. did you see it stop at the top of the ramp? mr. croy. no; i just watched it going up the ramp. mr. griffin. did you see the police officer there at the top of the ramp? mr. croy. not at that time, i didn't. mr. griffin. at what point did you lose sight? where was the car when you lost sight of the car at the top of the ramp? mr. croy. when he got almost to the top of the ramp, i turned back around. i didn't watch it drive on out. mr. griffin. i see. as you looked around, did you see anything of significance? mr. croy. no. mr. griffin. did there come a time when somebody gave you instructions to move the press back against the railing? mr. croy. yes, sir; there was. mr. griffin. when was that? mr. croy. prior to them bringing oswald down. mr. griffin. was that before or after the car went up the ramp? mr. croy. it was after. mr. griffin. was it any substantial length of time after? mr. croy. i don't know. mr. griffin. now, what makes you sure that it was after the car went up the ramp? mr. croy. because it was just prior to them bringing, just prior to them bringing him out. mr. griffin. well, if you were told that, if you were to assume that that car moved out of the ramp, approximately minute before oswald was shot, would you still feel that this order to move the people back from the railing was given after the car went up the ramp? mr. croy. yes. mr. griffin. in other words, you think it could have been as little as, no more than a minute after the car went up the ramp? mr. croy. i don't know how long it was. mr. griffin. do you feel it was more than a minute after the car went up the ramp? mr. croy. yes. mr. griffin. you think this order was given more than a minute after the car went up the ramp? mr. croy. yes. mr. griffin. where was the officer standing who gave that order? mr. croy. somewhere in this general area. he just stepped out of the little hallway leading to the jail office. i don't know who it was. he was a detective. mr. griffin. i see. mr. croy. in plain clothes. mr. griffin. you saw him emerge from the jail office? mr. croy. yes. mr. griffin. he said move everybody back? mr. croy. well, he didn't say move everybody back. he said move back against the railing. at that particular time they were all crowded out in here and all the way around. mr. griffin. you are indicating the area right in front of the tv cameras? mr. croy. and he said, move the press back against the railing, this group right here. they didn't move them back because they wasn't actually--what they were trying to do was clear a hall because they were crowded right up to the entrance right here. mr. griffin. you say there was a group that was standing across the main street ramp that wasn't pushed back? mr. croy. yes. mr. griffin. where were you standing? would you mark on the diagram where you were standing when the order was given to push the people back? mr. croy. do you want me to put an "x"? mr. griffin. put a "c" in there and put a circle around it. mr. croy. [complies.] mr. griffin. did you turn around and move the crowd back? mr. croy. there was a man with a camera, movie camera, sitting on his shoulder, standing next to me. mr. griffin. which direction were you facing? mr. croy. i was facing to the south. mr. griffin. toward commerce street? mr. croy. yes; he would have been to my left. and there was also another fellow standing just slightly in back of him. and when he gave this order to move the people back, i thought he referred to everyone moving against the rail, because i was in back of this other group of the press. i didn't bother with them. i let the ones in front of them take care of them, and i turned to the man with the camera and this other fellow and told them to move back against the rail. mr. griffin. did you recognize this other fellow? mr. croy. no. mr. griffin. now, then, what did you do? mr. croy. i turned back around and watched the reporters in front of me. mr. griffin. did you see someone there that you recognized? mr. croy. where? mr. griffin. where the reporters were in front of you? mr. croy. no. mr. griffin. well, maybe i don't understand your affidavit here. you stated in here, "someone in authority gave instructions to move the press back against the rail. at that time i turned and told two men standing to my left to move back against the rail. one of these men had a motion picture camera. the other one was in a dark maroon coat with black thread woven into it. he was wearing a black hat. my father has a coat something similar to the man i spoke to. "i then turned my attention back to the reporters which were standing in front of me. i believe this man to have been jack ruby." the "to" is underlined. which man are you referring to? mr. croy. the man with the maroon coat that was standing to my left. the other man i told to move back against the rail. mr. griffin. miss reporter, would you please turn back in your notes and read where he referred to the position of the reporters? (the following questions and answers were read: "mr. griffin. did you see someone there that you recognized? "mr. croy. where? "mr. griffin. where the reporters were in front of you? "mr. croy. no.") mr. griffin. will the reporter please indicate in the record what portion was read back to the witness? now, you heard the reporter read back that testimony. mr. croy. yes; i did. mr. griffin. i don't understand. you have said here, if i understand it in your affidavit, that you saw a man whom you believed to be jack ruby. mr. croy. i believe when i wrote that up it was him. mr. griffin. i see. now, have you since come to believe that that man wasn't jack ruby? mr. croy. no. mr. griffin. you still believe that man was jack ruby? mr. croy. to myself, i still believe it was jack ruby. mr. griffin. okay. mr. croy. i don't know whether it was or not. mr. griffin. tell us how you came to believe that man was jack ruby? mr. croy. well, as i was standing there and this blur came from my left, someone running, and he run by me at a pretty good clip, he was gaining momentum and he ran by me. i got a glimpse of his coat and the coat matched the one that i had told this fellow to move back. at least it seemed to me it did. mr. griffin. was that man over against the railing? mr. croy. no; after i turned my attention back to the reporters, i glanced back over my shoulder to see if they had done what i told them to, and the man with the camera had gotten on the railing where could get a good shot. the other fellow, i didn't see him. i didn't turn completely all the way around to see if he was in back of me. i just glanced over my shoulder, so i presume he had gotten against the railing or had moved around with the other reporters. mr. griffin. about how far were you from the railing after you pushed the reporters back over in that direction? mr. croy. i didn't push them. i asked them to step back over there. mr. griffin. yes. mr. croy. i was standing about midways to the ramp. do you know how wide that ramp is? mr. griffin. was there a line, a group of people in front of you? mr. croy. yes. mr. griffin. was this group, was it sort of in a line that stretched across from the wall to the railing across the main street ramp? mr. croy. yes. mr. griffin. how many people would you say were stretched across there? mr. croy. i don't know. there was quite a few there, but i have no idea how many were there. mr. griffin. now, were there any people--as you turned back, were you also part of a line, a second line? were you part of a second line? mr. croy. not that i know. i was just standing there. there were other officers to my right. mr. griffin. in other words, one straggled line, this first line in front of you? mr. croy. what do you mean? mr. griffin. are you stating there was a fairly solid front line of people? mr. croy. about two deep. mr. griffin. were you behind that group of people? mr. croy. i was behind them. mr. griffin. how far behind them were you? mr. croy. oh, a couple of feet or feet. mr. griffin. back where you were standing, were people as closely bunched up as other people were? mr. croy. there wasn't anyone to my left other than the two people i told to move back. to my right there were several other officers standing there with me. mr. griffin. was captain arnett one of the officers? mr. croy. yes. mr. griffin. would you show us where captain arnett was? mr. croy. [marks.] mr. griffin. how many people were to captain arnett's right? mr. croy. i don't know. mr. griffin. you say there was nobody to your left except a man with a movie camera? mr. croy. he got back upon the railing. mr. griffin. at the time this man got up on the railing, there was nobody that you can recall to your left? mr. croy. no. mr. griffin. now, will you place on the map, on that chart, where you think ruby, where you saw this man that you believe to be ruby, moved from and to? could you show us where? mr. croy. do you mean after i told him to move? mr. griffin. yes. mr. croy. i don't know where he moved to. mr. griffin. where was he when you first saw him moving? did you see him moving? mr. croy. maybe i don't understand you. as he ran into the crowd? mr. griffin. yes, sir. mr. croy. after oswald? mr. griffin. yes. mr. croy. where did i see him again? about right there [pointing]. mr. griffin. up in front of you? mr. croy. yes; well, to my side. mr. griffin. to your left? mr. croy. yes. mr. griffin. all right. would you put a "r" there where you saw him? mr. croy. [makes mark.] mr. griffin. now, was there anybody in front of him at that point? mr. croy. yes; there was reporters. mr. griffin. there were reporters. now, what did he do as he got to these reporters? mr. croy. he ran through them. mr. griffin. did he push them aside, or what? mr. croy. yes. mr. griffin. did you see him push them? mr. croy. yes. mr. griffin. did you see a man shoved? mr. croy. yes. mr. griffin. which man got shoved? mr. croy. these reporters. he just lowered his head and ran through them like a fullback went through a line. mr. griffin. did you feel this man move by you, or did you first see his motion when he was in front of you? mr. croy. caught a glimpse of his motion. i have a wide range. i could see over here. i saw a blur coming in, and, of course, by the time i turned, he was in position. he was already in front of me. mr. griffin. well, you can't tell from how far he had been running, can you? mr. croy. no. mr. griffin. were you able to tell if he had taken more than one step before you had seen him? mr. croy. he had a good head of steam up, i will put it that way. mr. griffin. do you know captain king? mr. croy. no. mr. griffin. do you know detective blackie harrison? mr. croy. no. mr. griffin. can you describe the people that you saw ruby push through? mr. croy. well, it was just a group of reporters there trying to get closer to ruby. i mean to oswald. mr. griffin. were there any police officers near ruby at the time that he moved through that line? mr. croy. there were no uniform police officers. if there were some detectives there, i don't know, because i didn't know any of them. mr. griffin. well, during this period that you were down in the basement, the -minute period that you were in the basement, were you able to distinguish the plainclothes detectives from the newspaper people? mr. croy. no; i was in the basement longer than minutes. mr. griffin. the period that you were stationed at the base of the ramp, the minutes or more, were you able to distinguish the uniformed officers from the newspaper people? mr. croy. uniformed officers; yes. the detectives; no. mr. griffin. you couldn't distinguish them? all right. are you able to describe the relative size of the newspaper reporters that ruby moved there, in comparison to him? mr. croy. no; because this man had run through, ruby, if it was ruby, was in a crouch. he was running low. the newspapermen were of average height and average build. mr. griffin. how could you tell that the two men he pushed were newspaper reporters? mr. croy. i don't know. they might have been police officers. mr. griffin. did anybody that he pushed by have a camera in his hand or microphone or a pad of paper or anything? mr. croy. i don't recall whether they did or not. they were actually standing in front of me and i was looking at their backs. mr. griffin. have you seen yourself in any photographs that have been taken of the basement area? mr. croy. yes. mr. griffin. do you remember where you saw that photograph? was it a photograph in a magazine or newspaper or something? mr. croy. television. mr. griffin. a tv film? mr. croy. yes. mr. griffin. do you recall what station you saw that on? mr. croy. all of them. no; i don't. they just ran it and ran it and reran it, and every time i was in the room, someone said, "there you are," and i looked again. mr. griffin. was this a showing that the police department made to you, or were you shown any films by the police department? mr. croy. no. mr. griffin. you saw this film on the regular, your home tv set, something like that? mr. croy. yes. mr. griffin. do you recall in any of these films a shot of ruby standing behind a very large man, standing right up at the back of a very large man, a very tall man, a man perhaps a head taller than he? mr. croy. no. mr. griffin. if you were shown these particular movie films, tv films that you saw, could you pick yourself out for us? mr. croy. well, the ones that i saw were the ones that i was trying to get the gun from ruby, and the ones that they had taken after it was all over, and i was standing in the entrance to the jail office. those are the only ones i have seen. mr. griffin. you didn't see a picture of yourself at the time ruby started to move out toward oswald? mr. croy. no; i saw the reruns of it when he ran in there and shot him, but i wasn't visible in that. mr. griffin. did any one of these films that you watched show you reaching out and touching the coat of ruby? mr. croy. no; none that i saw. mr. griffin. now, you met jack ruby before, haven't you? mr. croy. yes. mr. griffin. about how many occasions had you seen jack ruby before he came into the basement? mr. croy. once, that i can recall. i may have seen him many times before that, i don't know. mr. griffin. as a reserve officer, do you have occasion to ride duty in the downtown area? mr. croy. sometimes. mr. griffin. about how often would you say you did duty in the downtown area? mr. croy. requires once a month. mr. griffin. is there any particular man that you always did duty with? mr. croy. yes; there was one that i did ride quite a bit with. mr. griffin. who was that? mr. croy. j. w. dyson. mr. griffin. i mean in the downtown area, was there one that you rode with? mr. croy. i didn't ride in any particular downtown area over twice since i have been in the reserves, i don't guess. as a district in the downtown area. mr. griffin. now, did you have occasion to ride out in the area of the vegas club? mr. croy. yes. mr. griffin. how often would you ride in that area? mr. croy. i have ridden out there a couple or three times. mr. griffin. who did you ride that area with? mr. croy. i don't know. i just went to the substation and checked out with the squad. mr. griffin. was officer dyson assigned to that area? mr. croy. no; he is an apb. mr. griffin. is west illinois avenue anywhere near the vegas club? mr. croy. no. mr. griffin. how about around south lamar, is that anywhere near? mr. croy. no. mr. griffin. have you ever testified in any court case before? mr. croy. no. mr. griffin. now, after ruby shot oswald, did there come a time when you ran up the main street ramp and stopped reporters leaving? mr. croy. yes. mr. griffin. how long was that after this scuffle on the floor? mr. croy. that is hard to say, because it was right there, you might say, right with the scuffle on the floor that they said "seal the basement." mr. griffin. how long did you stand up there at the main street ramp? mr. croy. oh, just a few minutes. then i moved to the entrance into the jail office. mr. griffin. how long did you remain there? mr. croy. a good while. mr. griffin. then what time did you go off duty? mr. croy. it was about o'clock that night. mr. griffin. during that period, did you tell anybody that you had seen a man brush by you who you thought was ruby? mr. croy. yes. mr. griffin. who did you tell at that time? mr. croy. lieutenant mccoy. mr. griffin. reserve lieutenant mccoy? mr. croy. yes. mr. griffin. anybody else? mr. croy. i don't recall if i mentioned it or not to reserve lieutenant nicholson, i may have. mr. griffin. nicholson? mr. croy. yes. mr. griffin. what did lieutenant mccoy say when you told him that? mr. croy. i don't recall what he said. mr. griffin. why did you tell him about it? mr. croy. we were just talking about it later on that afternoon. mr. griffin. well, what were you saying? mr. croy. we were just talking about what happened in the basement, where he was at and where i was at. mr. griffin. were you speculating about where he came from or how he got in or anything like that? mr. croy. a little bit, i am trying to figure out what the heck happened, really. mr. griffin. were there other officers in the basement doing that also? mr. croy. they were doing it just between theirselves. there wasn't any group talking about it, i don't know. mr. griffin. what time was it that you talked, approximately, to lieutenant mccoy? mr. croy. oh, i don't know. mr. griffin. well, was this, you say, a short time after you left your position up on the main street ramp, or was it a long time after? mr. croy. it was a pretty good while after. an hour. mr. griffin. an hour or so? mr. croy. yes. mr. griffin. now, between the time that you told this lieutenant mccoy and you went off duty, what did you do? mr. croy. i sat up in the city planning room. mr. griffin. who was up there in the city planning room? mr. croy. lieutenant mccoy and reserve lieutenant barney merrell. mr. griffin. anybody else you can recall? mr. croy. reserve lieutenant nicholson. and there was captain solomon up there, and captain arnett, and several other reserve officers, that we kind of set up a command post, is actually what it was. mr. griffin. what were you doing up there? mr. croy. making assignments. mr. griffin. who was giving you directions? mr. croy. lieutenant mccoy. mr. griffin. what sort of assignments were you making? mr. croy. placing the men in different spots throughout the city hall and seeing that they were relieved, and calling on the telephone to get some more help. mr. griffin. did you have some time to sit around and talk? mr. croy. yes. mr. griffin. now, did you talk about what you had seen down in the basement? mr. croy. yes. mr. griffin. did you tell these men out there about ruby brushing past you? mr. croy. i talked to lieutenant mccoy about it. i don't know whether mike nicholson and merrell were there at that particular time or not. i don't know whether they overheard what we were talking about or not. mr. griffin. now, did captain solomon at that time make any request that people write reports about what they had seen? mr. croy. no. mr. griffin. were you aware that the regular officers, these other people who had been down in the basement, were being asked to make reports? mr. croy. no; i didn't know they were. mr. griffin. did you expect that you would be asked to make a report of what happened in the basement? mr. croy. yes. mr. griffin. you expected that while you were sitting up there in the office? mr. croy. i had a pretty good hunch they would. mr. griffin. now, this statement which we have marked, a letter which we have marked exhibit , which is a copy of a letter that you prepared for chief curry, dated november , , was that prepared down in the police department, or was that prepared at one of your business offices? mr. croy. that was prepared at the dallas police academy. mr. griffin. where is that located? mr. croy. on shorecrest back of the northwest substation. mr. griffin. was that prepared by hand? mr. croy. yes, it was. mr. griffin. were you responsible for getting the typing done? mr. croy. no. mr. griffin. who did you turn that report over to? mr. croy. captain solomon. mr. griffin. then was it his responsibility to get the typing done? mr. croy. i don't know. i just turned it in. what he did with it, i don't know. mr. griffin. did it eventually come back to you? mr. croy. no. mr. griffin. the typed copy never came back to you? mr. croy. no. mr. griffin. have you seen a copy of that statement since you signed it? mr. croy. just a while ago. mr. griffin. is there any question in your mind but that the statement that you signed is a complete and accurate copy of the statement that you prepared in your own hand in the police department? mr. croy. yes. mr. griffin. do you recall what day it was, the day you prepared that statement? mr. croy. the following tuesday night. i don't know what date it was. mr. griffin. well, mr. croy, why didn't you mention in this report, dated november , your seeing this man you believe to be ruby? mr. croy. why didn't i mention that in there? mr. griffin. yes. mr. croy. because at that time captain solomon told me that there would be another report made and i would have to go downtown to the city hall before a stenographer, and he told me just to leave that out for the time being, and put this in this other affidavit that you have, that this right here was just basically to find out where we were in the city hall. mr. griffin. then when you prepared this other statement on december , who called you and how did you come to go before notary public a. l. curtis? mr. croy. he is a lieutenant. after i signed it, i took it there to be notarized by him. mr. griffin. well, then, how did you happen to--was this done in the police department? mr. croy. yes, it was. mr. griffin. how did you happen to go to the police department that day? mr. croy. they called me. mr. griffin. who called you? mr. croy. captain arnett. mr. griffin. did you meet captain arnett down at the police department? mr. croy. yes, i did. mr. griffin. did you talk with him before this statement was drawn up? mr. croy. no, sir. mr. griffin. who did you talk to before the statement was drawn up? mr. croy. lieutenant revill. mr. griffin. did lieutenant revill have any information before him about this, about your having seen ruby? did lieutenant revill have any information before him about your having seen ruby go into the, brush by you? mr. croy. no. mr. griffin. he didn't have any information to that effect? mr. croy. no. mr. griffin. how did you happen to be called down there? mr. croy. because of my position in the basement where i was standing when he shot oswald. mr. griffin. all right. now, what did captain solomon say to you when you told what you had seen to revill? did revill indicate that he had heard about this before, about your having been a witness to this? mr. croy. not that i recall. mr. griffin. was anybody else there? mr. croy. yes; lieutenant, i think his name is cornwall, he was present. mr. griffin. did either of them indicate surprise by having seen this? mr. croy. no. mr. griffin. you got the impression from the way they spoke, or any impression from the way they spoke, that they had heard this information before? mr. croy. well, they didn't act surprised. they didn't act like they didn't know about it. it kind of tied in with the other reports that they had gotten, i presume, from the way they acted. mr. griffin. now, what was the general attitude on their part in the taking of these statements. did you feel that there was some, cornwall and revill were concerned about this situation? mr. croy. yes; they were. mr. griffin. how would you describe their general attitude in this interview? mr. croy. they were very interested. mr. griffin. well, can you tell me more about that? mr. croy. no; well, i will put it this way, that it took us hours to get that up. that is how interested they were. mr. griffin. you talked with them for hours? mr. croy. on different occasions. that day and the next day, for hours each day. that is pretty interesting. mr. griffin. mr. croy, i take it that you actually talked to them on november, the last day of november was the first time you talked to them, and then you signed this on the first day of december? mr. croy. what it was, the stenographer took it, and then she typed it up. then the next day i went back down there and they re-read it to me and went over and over and over and over the same thing over and over again. and then i took it into lieutenant curtis and signed it and had it notarized. mr. griffin. was that examination the way you and i have been going back and forth here? mr. croy. yes. mr. griffin. were there a number of drafts to this statement? you say it took you days to draw this up. had you written a number? mr. croy. no. mr. griffin. did you write something first? mr. croy. no. mr. griffin. did they take notes as you talked with them? mr. croy. no; we talked the entire thing over, and after we talked everything over and they brought the stenographer in and we went back over it again, then i left and she typed it up, and i came in the next day and we went back over it again and back over it and so on. mr. griffin. were they critical of you in any way for not having ejected ruby the first time that you saw him in the basement? mr. croy. no. mr. griffin. did you indicate to them at that time that you didn't know who he was when you first saw him? mr. croy. yes; i didn't know who he was. mr. griffin. when you first saw this man, did you believe that he was a newspaper reporter? mr. croy. i did. mr. griffin. did you tell that to lieutenant revill and captain cornwall? mr. croy. yes. mr. griffin. i am going to mark this "ruby location at the time croy saw him moving toward oswald." is that a fair description of what the hieroglyphics on here mean? mr. croy. yes. mr. griffin. i am going to mark this "dallas, tex., mr. croy, - - , exhibit ," and what i have marked on is the chart upon which you made a certain mark while you described to me what happened when you saw a man you believed to be ruby run toward oswald. now, let me ask you to sign that, if you believe that is an accurate copy of the real mccoy. would you date it also? mr. croy. [signs and dates.] mr. griffin. now, do you have any other information that you could provide the commission of any significance? mr. croy. none other than what we have talked about right here. (statement to witness by court reporter.) mr. griffin. well, now, tell me about your conversation that you had with our court stenographer here prior to coming in here, about tippit? mr. croy. oh, it was at the scene over where officer tippit was killed, at the scene. mr. griffin. were you at the scene when tippit was there? mr. croy. yes. mr. griffin. unassigned? mr. croy. yes. mr. griffin. i take it you are nodding your head? mr. croy. yes. mr. griffin. what time were you at the scene where tippit was killed? mr. croy. i watched them load him in the ambulance. mr. griffin. i see. were you on reserve duty that day? mr. croy. yes. i was stationed downtown in the, i believe it was the or block of main street. mr. griffin. were you in a patrol car? mr. croy. no; i was on foot. mr. griffin. were you in uniform? mr. croy. in uniform. mr. griffin. where were you at the time president kennedy was shot? mr. croy. sitting in my car at the city hall. i would guess, i don't know, because i didn't know he was shot until, i guess, several minutes after it was. mr. griffin. is that where you were located when you heard he was shot? mr. croy. no. i was on main street trying to go home. mr. griffin. you were driving your car down main street? mr. croy. yes. mr. griffin. about where were you on main street? mr. croy. griffin. mr. griffin. griffin street? mr. croy. yes. mr. griffin. what did you do when you heard that president kennedy had been shot? mr. croy. i didn't do anything. i was right in the middle of the street with my car hemmed in from both sides. i couldn't go anywhere. mr. griffin. as soon as you got unhemmed, what did you do? mr. croy. i went by the courthouse there and there were several officers standing there, and i asked if they needed any help. mr. griffin. did you drive your car to the courthouse? mr. croy. yes. mr. griffin. which courthouse? mr. croy. there was only one courthouse. mr. griffin. there is a county courthouse? mr. croy. there is. mr. griffin. there is a federal courthouse, also, but this is the one right there by the plaza and near the texas school book depository? mr. croy. the old red courthouse. mr. griffin. on houston street? mr. croy. yes. mr. griffin. was that the corner of houston and main? mr. croy. houston and main and elm. mr. griffin. how long after you heard that president kennedy was shot did you arrive there? mr. croy. oh, i guess it took me at least minutes to drive those few blocks. mr. griffin. what time would you say it was when you arrived at the courthouse? mr. croy. i don't know. mr. griffin. who did you see when you arrived there? mr. croy. oh, there was some officers standing on the corner, i don't know. mr. griffin. did you inquire of somebody there if you could be of assistance? mr. croy. yes. mr. griffin. whom did you inquire of? mr. croy. i don't know. they were just standing on the corner, and i asked if i could be of any assistance. mr. griffin. then, what did you do? mr. croy. i proceeded on home. mr. griffin. which way did you drive home? mr. croy. out thornton to colorado, and colorado to--i can't think of the street. it was marsalis. mr. griffin. was that---- mr. croy. or zangs. mr. griffin. thornton to zangs? mr. croy. thornton to colorado to zangs. mr. griffin. then out zangs and in a westerly direction? mr. croy. no. that is when i heard the call on tippit. mr. griffin. you were at the corner of zangs and colorado? mr. croy. when the call came out on tippit. mr. griffin. then what did you do? mr. croy. i proceeded to the location where tippit was shot. mr. griffin. where was that? mr. croy. i think it was in the block of east th, i believe it was. mr. griffin. do you recall what street intersection that was? mr. croy. no; i don't. mr. griffin. can you describe that area out there? mr. croy. just residential. mr. griffin. now, was there---- mr. croy. where tippit was killed, you mean? mr. griffin. this area that you went to where tippit was? mr. croy. well, the street where he was killed was a residential area. the street immediately south of that, jefferson, is business. mr. griffin. i see. now, i am just referring to the street you found him on. when you got there, was tippit's car there? mr. croy. yes. mr. griffin. was tippit there? mr. croy. they were loading him in the ambulance. mr. griffin. were other officers on the scene? mr. croy. none that i saw. mr. griffin. what did you do when you got there? mr. croy. got me a witness. mr. griffin. who did you get ahold of? mr. croy. it was a woman standing across the street from me. i don't recall her name. she gave me her name at that time. mr. griffin. what did she tell you? mr. croy. she told me that she saw tippit get out of the car, and i don't recall, i think she said he stepped back a couple of foot and shot him and then ran. she was pretty hysterical at that particular time. mr. griffin. did she tell you where she first saw oswald? mr. croy. i don't recall whether she did or not. there was, as i recall, there was people who saw it. no; . a man in a, taxicab driver. however, she was the main eyewitness, as far as i could make out. she saw the actual shooting. mr. griffin. how long did you talk with her? mr. croy. oh, a good or minutes. mr. griffin. were there any other officers there with you when you were talking with her? mr. croy. yes; and no. i talked to her, and then they talked to her, and then i talked to her, and just after i located a witness, the squad did get there. mr. griffin. this conversation all took place near the scene of the tippit killing? mr. croy. leaning up against his car. mr. griffin. now, as you and the other officers talked with her, did she tell you where she was that she first saw oswald? mr. croy. i don't recall whether she did or not. she was pretty hysterical and not much that she said made too much sense. mr. griffin. what was she saying? mr. croy. she talked very incoherent at that particular time. mr. griffin. what information were you able to get out of her at that time? mr. croy. the only information i could get out of her was the description of what oswald had on, and him shooting him. mr. griffin. what did she tell you at that time that he had on? mr. croy. i don't recall what he had on. mr. griffin. what did she tell you? mr. croy. i don't recall what it was. she just gave a description there. mr. griffin. did you file any report of your activities this day? mr. croy. no. mr. griffin. do you remember the names of the other officers who were there with you when you were interviewing this woman? mr. croy. no; i know them on sight. they all work in oak cliff and i don't know the names. i just know when i see them driving down the street. mr. griffin. did you talk with the taxi driver? mr. croy. yes; i did. i talked to the taxi driver. mr. griffin. now, did you talk with him on the scene of the crime? mr. croy. yes. mr. griffin. do you remember what his name was? mr. croy. no; i didn't get his name. there was a private detective agency. there was a report that a cabdriver had picked up tippit's gun and had left, presumably. they don't know whether he was the one that had shot tippit, or whether the man, i think it was he, brought someone out there, something. anyway, he saw it and he picked up tippit's gun and attempted to give chase or something like that. mr. griffin. there was a detective who was an eyewitness? mr. croy. no; he brought the taxi driver back to the scene. mr. griffin. but the taxicab driver was an eyewitness? mr. croy. as far as i know. mr. griffin. did you talk to the taxicab driver? mr. croy. no; i took tippit's gun and several other officers came up, and i turned him over to them and they questioned him. mr. griffin. now, who was the third eyewitness that you say you talked with there? mr. croy. i believe it was a man that was standing there in the yard. he said he saw oswald just walk up the street. mr. griffin. what direction did he say? mr. croy. he didn't say. mr. griffin. but he saw oswald walking some blocks to where he got to before he got to tippit's car? mr. croy. yes. mr. griffin. what did he tell you that he saw oswald do walking up the street? mr. croy. he just said he saw him walking up the street, and this other lady said that, i believe it was, that tippit had stopped him and called him over to the car, and he came around to the driver's side, because tippit was by himself. mr. griffin. oswald came around? mr. croy. to the driver's side of the car. mr. griffin. this is the lady that said that? mr. croy. the lady said that, and she said, i think she said, he stuck his head in the car and they talked, and he stepped back a couple or feet, and tippit opened the door to get out, and when he got out, oswald pulled the pistol out and shot him. mr. griffin. this is a lady? the man or the lady that said this? mr. croy. the lady. mr. griffin. now, what did the man who was walking, who saw oswald walking up the street, tell you? mr. croy. he just said he saw him walking up the street just prior to the shooting. mr. griffin. did he say he saw him arrive at the car? mr. croy. no; i turned him over to some other officers and they talked to him. mr. griffin. were you able to determine from them what direction he saw oswald walking? mr. croy. no. mr. griffin. do you recall this man's name? mr. croy. no; i found the witness and took him to the other officers. mr. griffin. now, after the tippit--how long did you remain at the scene of the tippit killing? mr. croy. oh, i would say a good minutes. thirty or forty minutes, something like that. mr. griffin. then where did you go? mr. croy. home. i went to eat. mr. griffin. i take it, at some restaurant or something? mr. croy. yes. mr. griffin. did you remain home the rest of the day? mr. croy. yes. mr. griffin. did you come to the police department on the---- mr. croy. next day. mr. griffin. next day? mr. croy. i believe it was the next day. no; that was the d. saturday, i didn't go to the police department that day. mr. griffin. while you were at the scene of the tippit killing, did you inquire there as to whether or not you could be of any assistance? mr. croy. well, when i left, i asked them if they thought they needed me any longer, and they said, "no," so i left. mr. griffin. now, have you been interviewed by an fbi agent or any agent of the federal government with respect to what you have just told us here? mr. croy. no. mr. griffin. have you been interviewed by any member of the dallas police department with respect to what you have told us here? mr. croy. no. mr. griffin. did any of the--how many police officers came out to the scene of the tippit killing while you were there? mr. croy. i don't know. there was a slew of them. that would be hard to say. mr. griffin. were there any officers there that you knew? mr. croy. there were several officers there that i knew. i don't know their names. mr. griffin. were there any officers there that you knew? mr. croy. i am sure there is. mr. griffin. did you know them? mr. croy. the same way i know them, just by sight. mr. griffin. well, do you have anything else of value that you know you could contribute to the commission? mr. croy. not that i know of. mr. griffin. do you know the name of the woman you talked to across the street? mr. croy. i don't recall. i think she lived across the street. she was standing out in front watering her yard or doing something in her yard. mr. griffin. but you have the impression that she lived across the street, in a house across the street? mr. croy. i believe she did. i am not sure either, or it was in the neighborhood and she was there in the yard. she was across the street when it happened. mr. griffin. well, you stated that she was watering her yard? mr. croy. or something. she was standing in the yard doing something. mr. griffin. but the first thing you indicated was, she had been watering her yard? apparently that was something that stuck with you from, of course, talking with her? mr. croy. i don't remember what she said she was doing. she was doing something in the yard, and i presume that is where she lived was across the street. mr. griffin. now, did you have occasion to go to the theatre where oswald was apprehended? mr. croy. no. mr. griffin. or go near there? mr. croy. i went by it, yes; within a block of it on the way home. mr. griffin. had oswald been apprehended by the time you got there? mr. croy. no. mr. griffin. how do you know that? mr. croy. they were on their way up there. there had been a report that he had gone into the texas theatre. mr. griffin. were you listening to your police radio? mr. croy. no. i was standing at the scene, and there had been several reports. one, that he, of course, they said that the killer did go into a church, which was in sight of where they were at. and another report, that he had gone into the library over on jefferson. and they had all, most of the officers except maybe one or two had left the scene where tippit was killed and gone to the spot. and as i got ready to leave, there was another report that he ran into the texas theatre, a man fitting oswald's description had ran into the texas theatre. mr. griffin. that was about the time you got into the automobile? mr. croy. just as i was fixing to leave. mr. griffin. did you have your police radio on in your car? mr. croy. yes. mr. griffin. so you drove over there by the--near the theatre? mr. croy. well, i drove on up th street. i believe it was th street. on up to zangs, and when i got to zangs, took a left, and at the end of zangs, at the corner of zangs and jefferson, it is just a block away, i could see them rushing out to the front and the back. mr. griffin. what did you do as you saw them rushing out? mr. croy. they had more help than they needed, so i went on. mr. griffin. did you continue to listen to your police radio? mr. croy. yes. mr. griffin. did you hear anything more over the radio about what happened? mr. croy. no. i only had channel on my radio. mr. griffin. how far a drive is it from the texas theatre to where you live? mr. croy. about miles. mr. griffin. how long does it take to drive that distance? mr. croy. about minutes. mr. griffin. did you actually see these men rushing into the texas theatre from your automobile? mr. croy. no. mr. griffin. how did you know they were going into the, men were rushing into the theatre just as you went by? mr. croy. there were three cars in the back and about three in the front, and there wasn't nobody in them. mr. griffin. you drove right by the front of the theatre? mr. croy. i drove within a block, but it is a big, wide street there, and there is an alley and nothing on the other side of the street, parking lots. mr. griffin. how many cars could you see there? mr. croy. i would say there were two or three in the back and two or three in the front, plus another on the way. mr. griffin. well, now, the street that you took, did that go by the front or the back of the theatre? mr. croy. it didn't go by either one of them. mr. griffin. which street was that? mr. croy. zangs. mr. griffin. how many blocks is it from the theatre? mr. croy. one. mr. griffin. what street is the theatre on? mr. croy. jefferson. mr. griffin. what street does it back on to? mr. croy. in backs into an alley. mr. griffin. into the alley? mr. croy. yes. mr. griffin. how many feet would you say that jefferson or the texas theatre is from zangs? mr. croy. i don't know. i would say not a very long block. mr. griffin. now, when you were driving up zangs, i take it you were driving away from town? mr. croy. south. mr. griffin. south on zangs at jefferson? mr. croy. yes. mr. griffin. did you continue south? mr. croy. i continued south. mr. griffin. how did you proceed to your home from there? mr. croy. well, i didn't go home. i went to eat. mr. griffin. where did you go to eat? mr. croy. austin barbecue. mr. griffin. where is that located? mr. croy. on the corner of hampton and illinois. mr. griffin. how did you get to hampton and illinois? mr. croy. from zangs to illinois. mr. griffin. then what direction? mr. croy. west. mr. griffin. is that left or right? mr. croy. it is a right. mr. griffin. then how far up illinois to hampton? mr. croy. oh, i would say a long ways. it is a good stretch. zangs place is about the or block and illinois intersects at about the or block. mr. griffin. how far driving was it from the texas theatre to this place that you had dinner or lunch? mr. croy. well, it is about three-quarters of a mile from my house, so it is miles from there, so about - / miles. mr. griffin. now, from the diner what route did you drive to your house? mr. croy. straight up illinois, west on illinois. mr. griffin. is your house on illinois? mr. croy. yes. mr. griffin. do you know what time you arrived at the diner? mr. croy. no; i don't. mr. griffin. did you see anybody there that you knew? mr. croy. my wife. mr. griffin. did you have an appointment to meet your wife there? mr. croy. yes. mr. griffin. what time was your appointment? mr. croy. well, i saw her downtown and i was supposed to have gone right straight over there. i was supposed to have gone by my mother's, and i got detoured down at tippit, and i was a little bit late, and she was a little mad. mr. griffin. do you recall what time you were supposed to meet her? mr. croy. no; i just saw her downtown, and we were going to eat. she was in her car. mr. griffin. where did you see her downtown? where were you and she when you saw each other? mr. croy. at the courthouse. she pulled up beside me. i asked if anybody needed me there, and they said, "no," and here she comes and i said, "do you want to get something to eat?" and she said, "yes." mr. griffin. you said you would be right there? mr. croy. i was going to change my uniform and my clothes were over at my mother's and dad's. mr. griffin. so then as you drove out to change your clothes, what did you do? did you hear something? how did you happen to get over to tippit's place on the way home? mr. croy. i was on the corner of zangs and colorado on my way to my mother's and dad's house at that particular time. mr. griffin. why were you going to change your clothes at your mother's and dad's house? did you live at your mother's and dad's house at that particular time? mr. croy. yes. i did for about that weeks. mr. griffin. where was your mother's and dad's house from the place that you had dinner? mr. croy. it is quite a ways. it is about or miles. mr. griffin. how did you go from where you had your lunch or dinner to your mother's and dad's house? mr. croy. straight out north on hampton. mr. griffin. north on hampton? mr. croy. yes. mr. griffin. you were living in your mother's and dad's house at that time? mr. croy. i slept there. mr. griffin. well, was your wife living there also? mr. croy. no. mr. griffin. were you separated from her? mr. croy. no. (to reporter: don't put that in there.) mr. griffin. were you separated at that time? mr. croy. at that time. mr. griffin. is there anything else that you think that you could tell as a result of your experiences on the d, d, or th, or any other time that would be helpful to us, either in the investigation of the assassination of president kennedy, or the murder of jack ruby. mr. croy. you mean oswald? mr. griffin. yes. mr. croy. none that i know of. that is as well as i can remember it of what happened. mr. griffin. thank you very much. testimony of wilbur jay cutchshaw the testimony of wilbur jay cutchshaw was taken at : a.m., on march , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. burt w. griffin, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. griffin. let me state for the record again. my name is burt griffin. i am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel's office of the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy. this commission was established as a result of an executive order that was signed by president johnson on november , , and a joint resolution of congress no. . pursuant to that joint resolution and the executive order the commission has prescribed a set of procedures, and in accordance with this provision i have been authorized to take your deposition, mr. cutchshaw. i want to tell you first of all a little bit about the scope of the investigation. the commission has been directed by the president to inquire into and ascertain all the facts that have to do with the assassination of president kennedy and with the subsequent murder of lee harvey oswald, and to evaluate these facts and report back to the president. we don't have any authority here to prosecute any crimes. we are not investigating for that purpose. the only crime that can be committed in connection with this investigation is the crime of perjury. we are here to try to determine the facts, and in order to make sure that the events that have transpired over the last few months will not be repeated in the future, if that is possible, and to attempt to determine whether there is still any danger to our chief officers in government and the national security. in doing this, we have had hundreds of interviews conducted by various members of the federal investigatory agencies, and perhaps hundreds is an understatement. it may be thousands. we have a stack of documents over in a corner that would frighten you. it just represents people who have been talked to by the various federal bureaus. now we are undertaking to talk to a few other people that we think are particularly central in terms of having information that would be useful. as to you, mr. cutchshaw, we have asked you to come here because we want to ascertain what you know in particular about the death of oswald, and we also, however, want any pertinent facts that you may have that would bear upon the entire picture. you have been asked to appear here as a result of a letter which was mailed to chief curry in the form of a general request from mr. j. lee rankin, who is the general counsel of the president's commission. actually, under the rules adopted by the commission you are entitled to get a personal letter from the commission, and days before you testify here. however, the rules do provide that you can waive that particular letter, or -day written notice. now, the first thing i want to ask you is if you would like us to send you a letter, or if you prefer to waive the -day notice? mr. cutchshaw. i will waive that notice. mr. griffin. also, the rules of the commission provide that you are entitled to be represented by counsel at any time, and many of the people do have attorneys here. i want you to feel that we welcome your availing yourself of this opportunity if you want to, but i see that you are not here with an attorney, and i presume by that fact that you have decided that you don't want one. but if you do feel that you would like one, please feel free to indicate right now and we will certainly---- mr. cutchshaw. i don't feel i need one. mr. griffin. okay, let me ask you to raise your right hand and swear you in. do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. cutchshaw. i do. mr. griffin. would you state your full name? mr. cutchshaw. wilbur jay cutchshaw. mr. griffin. when were you born, mr. cutchshaw? mr. cutchshaw. may , . mr. griffin. where do you presently live? mr. cutchshaw. southwest d, grand prairie, tex. mr. griffin. what is your occupation? mr. cutchshaw. police officer, dallas, tex. mr. griffin. how long have you been with the police department? mr. cutchshaw. a little over years. mr. griffin. are you in any particular bureau of the police department? mr. cutchshaw. criminal investigation division, juvenile bureau. mr. griffin. do you hold any particular rank in the department? mr. cutchshaw. detective. mr. griffin. how long have you been with the juvenile bureau? mr. cutchshaw. about - / years. mr. griffin. where were you the time before that? mr. cutchshaw. radio patrol. mostly working in the west dallas area. mr. griffin. did you ever work in the downtown dallas area? mr. cutchshaw. i think i worked downtown there for about a month. mr. griffin. did you know jack ruby before the time he shot lee oswald? mr. cutchshaw. i had seen him one time before. mr. griffin. where was that? mr. cutchshaw. at the carousel on commerce. mr. griffin. how did you happen to see him? mr. cutchshaw. i went up in his place one night. mr. griffin. how long was that before he shot oswald? mr. cutchshaw. that's been about - / years ago, the first time i saw him. mr. griffin. i am going to mark for the purpose of identification a copy of an interview report prepared by fbi agents mabey and hughes, purporting to report an interview they had with you on december , . i am marking this "dallas, tex., detective cutchshaw, - - , exhibit ." i have marked for identification the interview report of december , , by mabey and hughes as exhibit . i have marked what purports to be a copy of a letter signed by you to chief curry, dated november , , as exhibit . and i have marked as exhibit a copy of a report by fbi agent james w. bookhout, relating to an interview that bookhout had with you on november th. that is exhibit . now, have you had a chance to look over these two interview reports and a copy of your letter? mr. cutchshaw. right. mr. griffin. are there any additions or corrections that you would want to make in those documents? mr. cutchshaw. i couldn't see any that i would want to make. mr. griffin. okay; now, you were up in the juvenile bureau all of sunday morning until you were called down in the basement; is that right? mr. cutchshaw. yes. mr. griffin. now, during the period that you were up there, do you recall who was on duty? mr. cutchshaw. well, let's see. officer goolsby was working the desk, and lowery and myself and harrison and miller, i believe it was, and, oh, yes, june mcline, a policewoman. mr. griffin. can you recall when it was that you first had any information that lee oswald might be moved to the county jail? mr. cutchshaw. all i can remember is that chief stevenson came up and told us he wanted us all to stay up in the office, and at that time it was about o'clock, i believe it was. and he said that they had to form a security when they moved oswald, but as far as knowing exactly what time, i didn't. mr. griffin. how do you place it? what makes you say that he came up about o'clock? mr. cutchshaw. because i remember that he said we had to be there between, i believe it was, and , and so i looked out the window at the clock, but i didn't have my watch, because i had these trousers that didn't have a watch pocket, because i have a pocket watch. i don't have a wrist watch, and out the window we have a sign that has a big clock. i said i better call the boys from the cafe. they had already left to go to the cafe, but it was about o'clock. mr. griffin. who were they? mr. cutchshaw. blackie harrison and l. d. miller. mr. griffin. who did you say that to? mr. cutchshaw. i believe i asked captain martin if he wanted me to call and tell them to come back. he said tell them to get back as soon as possible. mr. griffin. did you call over at the cafe? mr. cutchshaw. i asked somebody what the number was, and i think it was a man on the desk, but it was goolsby was the one that made the call. i am not sure as to whether he did or not. i know somebody had to look it up in the book what the number was over there. mr. griffin. you don't recall whether you made the telephone call or goolsby made it? mr. cutchshaw. i sure don't. mr. griffin. do you recall where it was you called? mr. cutchshaw. i know where they went. i say i think i do. the deluxe diner, right across from the library on commerce. mr. griffin. how did you happen to know that? mr. cutchshaw. because that is where they said they were going. that is what we call the "greasy spoon." mr. griffin. have you talked to miller and harrison about their testimony before the commission? mr. cutchshaw. no. mr. griffin. were you on duty yesterday? mr. cutchshaw. no. mr. griffin. what duty hours are you working now? mr. cutchshaw. i work from to . mr. griffin. what are your days off? mr. cutchshaw. on tuesdays and wednesdays. mr. griffin. do you recall what happened? do you recall harrison and miller coming back from the diner? mr. cutchshaw. no; i know the next time i saw them they were down in the basement. mr. griffin. do you recall anybody coming in and directing you to go down to the basement? mr. cutchshaw. yes. mr. griffin. who was that? mr. cutchshaw. captain o. a. jones. mr. griffin. what time would you estimate that was? mr. cutchshaw. well, i believe that was just before o'clock. mr. griffin. how do you fix the time at o'clock? mr. cutchshaw. well, i know we weren't down there too long, and when they brought oswald and he was shot, i think it was a little after , or minutes after, something like that. mr. griffin. do you recall who all went downstairs with you at that time? mr. cutchshaw. i think it was detective goolsby, r. l. lowery, and myself, and i don't remember who else went down. i know we three were together. mr. griffin. do you recall what happened when you got out of the elevator? mr. cutchshaw. yes; we walked into this little hallway lobby deal right in front of the jail office, and we had to wait there for a while. they had an officer on guard there at the entrance to the hallway. mr. griffin. do you recall who that officer was? mr. cutchshaw. no, sir; i don't. mr. griffin. now, when you left the jail office, who was it you said went down with you? goolsby, lowery, and who else? mr. cutchshaw. that is the only two, is officer goolsby, lowery, and myself. mr. griffin. do you recall where miller and harrison were? mr. cutchshaw. no; i don't. i did see them after that. he came in there, and i asked him where he had been, and he said when he came back from the cafe he went down in the basement, which is our locker room, to get some cigars. mr. griffin. where did you see him? mr. cutchshaw. down in the lobby. mr. griffin. now, then, when you congregated outside that jail office, what happened? mr. cutchshaw. captain jones came in and told us that we were going to have to form a cordon and keep everybody out except those who are authorized, which was the police officers and the news media. mr. griffin. did he tell you anything about what you should do when oswald came down? mr. cutchshaw. he said to try to keep everybody back and not to let them get too close to him. mr. griffin. you formed along one of the walls; didn't you? mr. cutchshaw. i was at the door where the doors come out of the jail lobby. mr. griffin. maybe it would be easier if you took this diagram and indicate on the diagram where. would it be easier to turn it around the other way? indicate where you were. [diagram marked cutchshaw exhibit no. .] mr. cutchshaw. this door is a swinging door, and it was swinging back inside the jail, and i was right here at this. mr. griffin. would you put an "x" there? mr. cutchshaw. i was standing right here by the side of the door. mr. griffin. all right; now, did you remain there the entire time? mr. cutchshaw. yes; until after the shooting. mr. griffin. now, what did captain jones tell you to do at that particular time? mr. cutchshaw. captain jones told us what he wanted done, for us to line up the cordons here and block off the doors here, and had officers lined over here, so i just got at that position. he didn't put us at any particular position. so i was over here. and there was a bunch of newsmen in this area in here. mr. griffin. in the jail office? mr. cutchshaw. in the jail office. and i asked him about those and he said he wanted everybody out there, and we cleared out the jail office except the officers here. mr. griffin. that is behind the desk? mr. cutchshaw. right. mr. griffin. when you cleared out those news people in the jail office, did anybody help you? mr. cutchshaw. yes; captain jones was there. he was right there, and he came in with me, and i believe it was a, i think it was lieutenant wiggins that was on duty that morning. i'm not too sure. mr. griffin. how many newspaper people would you estimate were in there? mr. cutchshaw. i would say there were about seven or eight in there at the time. mr. griffin. did you see where those people went? mr. cutchshaw. yes; they came out this door and to the left. mr. griffin. the door where you stationed yourself? mr. cutchshaw. yes. mr. griffin. did they all go out and turn left as they got out? mr. cutchshaw. they all turned to the left, and two of them, i don't know who they were, i would recognize them if i say them, came into this area here. mr. griffin. came behind the double doors? mr. cutchshaw. came back in from the double doors in front of the jail office window. mr. griffin. would you put an "x" on the map where the people were? mr. cutchshaw. i wouldn't know the exact position where they went, but two of them went in here, and one came back out here and stood for a minute. i will put it right in front of this window right here. mr. griffin. one of them went in there and stayed, and the other one went in and came out? mr. cutchshaw. right; he came out and was standing out here for a moment. mr. griffin. where did he go? mr. cutchshaw. we made him get back of the hallway, and i think i was right about in here. mr. griffin. would you put an "n" where that newspaper man was. mr. cutchshaw. yes. mr. griffin. where did the remainder of the newspaper people go? mr. cutchshaw. they went back into this area along there. they got a pipe rail here, and they had officers along, and somewhere in behind these offices along that rail. mr. griffin. now, would you place on the map where you recall seeing tv cameras? mr. cutchshaw. put an "n" or what? mr. griffin. why don't you draw sort of a rectangle of some sort and write tv. make it big enough. mr. cutchshaw. [complies.] mr. griffin. now, were there any other tv cameras in the basement, that you recall? mr. cutchshaw. not right at first, but another one did come in through the door and went down to this position here. mr. griffin. would you mark this spot that it went to? mr. cutchshaw. the last position i saw it in was about in here [indicating]. mr. griffin. how long before oswald came down did that tv camera come out through the double doors and go down to the spot that you have marked in the entrance to the garage? mr. cutchshaw. oh, about or minutes. just prior to when they were coming down. it is when they were coming down. it is when they came through the door. mr. griffin. now, at any time while you were down there, was there a tv camera along the wall that lowery was on? mr. cutchshaw. this one right here that came through here, and lowery was standing right here. mr. griffin. put an "l" where lowery was. mr. cutchshaw. and they came through right down by him, down this ramp here. mr. griffin. was there ever a tv camera stationed there? mr. cutchshaw. not that i remember; no. mr. griffin. do you recall if the tv camera which you saw go out into the garage area, came down through the public elevators, or through the jail office elevators? mr. cutchshaw. i didn't see them come down. mr. griffin. did he come through the double doors? mr. cutchshaw. he came through the double doors here, and the service elevator, public elevators over here. they came through here. as far as where they came in, they didn't come out of the jail office. mr. griffin. did you clear the newspaper people out of the jail office before or after this tv camera? mr. cutchshaw. it was before. mr. griffin. after the tv camera came down, where did you station yourself? mr. cutchshaw. i was right back in this door, the same place. mr. griffin. still there? mr. cutchshaw. right there. mr. griffin. did you look out towards the tv cameras from time to time? mr. cutchshaw. yeah. mr. griffin. now, tell us what you saw as you looked out towards the tv cameras? mr. cutchshaw. mostly saw lights. i mostly saw lights were shining in my eyes here, but there was a line of men along here which consisted of officers and news media. mr. griffin. now, do you remember when the armored car came down? mr. cutchshaw. well, i know when they were trying to back it down, but it couldn't get through. mr. griffin. now, do you remember chief batchelor being up there by the armored car? mr. cutchshaw. i couldn't see the armored car from where i was. mr. griffin. how long did you remain in this position that you have marked with an "x" after the tv camera came through? mr. cutchshaw. you mean how long did i stay there? mr. griffin. yes. mr. cutchshaw. until after the officers and lee oswald came through. then i stepped up maybe one or two steps behind them, and that is when the shot rang out. mr. griffin. did you see any of the officers here in this area along the main street ramp? mr. cutchshaw. well, i think there was one standing right here, and one right here. but just who they were, i don't know. mr. griffin. did you see any of them up further across the main street ramp? mr. cutchshaw. i don't remember seeing any. i know there was a line of men along there, and who they were, i don't know. mr. griffin. from where you were standing, you could see the tv camera going in that direction, couldn't you? mr. cutchshaw. i saw the tv camera over here; yes. mr. griffin. could you see from where you were standing any people in front of that tv camera? mr. cutchshaw. no; not that i can remember except there were people right in here. mr. griffin. would you indicate where you saw people congregating over in the area of the entrance to the garage? mr. cutchshaw. no; i think there were some--i will put a couple of "x's"--i think there were some along there, and there were people right along here [indicating]. mr. griffin. now, were you able to see how many lines of people there were along across the main street ramp? mr. cutchshaw. no. mr. griffin. did you see rio pierce, the same pierce car go up the ramp? mr. cutchshaw. yes. mr. griffin. did you see it break through the line of newsmen? mr. cutchshaw. yes. did i see a car break through the line? mr. griffin. yes. mr. cutchshaw. all i know, it went up, or when it cleared the way, i know the car did go up, because i don't know how many people---- mr. griffin. you didn't actually see the car reach the top of the ramp? mr. cutchshaw. no. mr. griffin. where did you lose sight of that car? mr. cutchshaw. when it went up past this line here. mr. griffin. on november , the day that oswald was shot, you prepared a letter to chief curry, and you were also interviewed by agent bookhout. do you remember those two things? mr. cutchshaw. right. mr. griffin. do you remember whether you prepared your letter to curry before or after you were interviewed by bookhout? mr. cutchshaw. it was before. mr. griffin. all right. now, after the shooting, did you go back into the jail office? mr. cutchshaw. yes. mr. griffin. you followed ruby and oswald back in there? mr. cutchshaw. well, i helped carry--i had hold of ruby's left hand up as far as the jail office door. and all of us couldn't get through at the same time, so i released, because there was another man right in front at his shoulder, so i let go so they could get in. mr. griffin. were you in the jail office when ruby was taken upstairs? mr. cutchshaw. well, i think i was, because i was there at the door keeping other people out--after i got in. let me put it like this: after we got ruby on the inside, i slammed the door, too. mr. griffin. did there come a time when you left the jail office? mr. cutchshaw. yes; there was. mr. griffin. how long after ruby shot oswald would you say that was? mr. cutchshaw. i imagine it was only a couple of minutes. just a very short time. mr. griffin. then where did you go? mr. cutchshaw. i notified this tv camera officer here with two men, i went over to talk to them, because they were trying to push it up this ramp by theirselves, and i do remember seeing three men with that camera at one time, and there was only two men at the time trying to push it. mr. griffin. do you remember what tv camera that was? what station? mr. cutchshaw. channel on the camera box. mr. griffin. have you subsequently learned that it was a dallas channel ? mr. cutchshaw. well, i think so, that channel . i believe it is a fort worth station. it is one of them, got two of them. mr. griffin. what channel is channel ? what station? mr. cutchshaw. i believe that is a fort worth station. mr. griffin. what are the call letters on that? mr. cutchshaw. man, i don't know. mr. griffin. is it in your statement anywhere? mr. cutchshaw. i don't know. i don't think i know the call letters. just channel is the only thing i saw on the box. mr. griffin. how many men were over at the camera at that time? mr. cutchshaw. when i was standing at the door, i had it closed, and i looked out and i saw the camera here with only two men. mr. griffin. why did you go over to the camera? mr. cutchshaw. because i remember three men being with the camera in this area here. mr. griffin. i see. did you have reason to think one of them might be ruby? mr. cutchshaw. i didn't at the time, because i figured if there were three men pushing it out, why wouldn't there be three men trying to get it up the ramp. mr. griffin. how many did you see get it up the ramp? mr. cutchshaw. two. mr. griffin. did you detain those men? mr. cutchshaw. yes. mr. griffin. did anybody assist? mr. cutchshaw. officer lowery. mr. griffin. anybody else? mr. cutchshaw. not at the time, because we finally got lieutenant swain over there and he talked with them awhile, and at that time when he and lowery had them, or swain talked to them, we got their names where we would be able to ask information of them later. mr. griffin. who was the first one of the two of you to arrive at the tv cameras? was it lowery or was he there when you came up? mr. cutchshaw. no. mr. griffin. how much later did lowery come up? mr. cutchshaw. when i got over there and this one, i don't know what the names are, i think this one that had the coat on was alexander, as well as i can remember. he was kind of nervous and shaky. so, then i called lowery to help me out, because i didn't know whether they might be involved or not. mr. griffin. do you remember where lowery was standing when you called him over? mr. cutchshaw. i believe he was right over in this area. i am not too sure, but i think he was, because i could see him from here. mr. griffin. the point you are talking about is in front of the double doors? mr. cutchshaw. between the double doors and the driveway close to, i call that the north wall. mr. griffin. now, at the time lowery arrived, was lieutenant swain there? mr. cutchshaw. no. mr. griffin. how much longer would you say after lowery arrived did lieutenant swain? mr. cutchshaw. well, in the process after i got lowery over there and we were holding them, we tried to stop two or three officers prior to that, supervisory officers, and they were in a hustle trying to get around, and they finally got swain, and i think it was maybe or minutes after lowery got there, and they got lieutenant swain to come over and talk to them. not to talk, but for us to have a conference as to what to do about it. mr. griffin. now, how long did you talk with lieutenant swain? mr. cutchshaw. well, i imagine it was about or minutes. mr. griffin. did you and lowery turn the two tv men over to lieutenant swain? mr. cutchshaw. when i got the names and everything, lowery started getting their names and i left. mr. griffin. did lowery take the names down in a notebook? mr. cutchshaw. he took the names and he turned them over to the homicide office. mr. griffin. you left, and where did you go? mr. cutchshaw. i came back upstairs to my office. mr. griffin. on the third floor? mr. cutchshaw. room . mr. griffin. what did you do when you got up to the juvenile bureau? mr. cutchshaw. i waited up there until further information. mr. griffin. how long did you wait? mr. cutchshaw. man, i don't know. we was up there for quite a while. mr. griffin. now, did you eventually go out to love field? mr. cutchshaw. yes. mr. griffin. now, before you went out to love field, did you prepare a report of what had happened down in the basement? mr. cutchshaw. no, sir; that is where i went, i am sorry. i am getting confused, but when i left the basement, i talked to somebody downstairs about it, and i think that was captain jones, and he said, "well, go upstairs and write out your report, whatever you know, or what you saw." and i went to the homicide bureau first and made out my report in written letter form that you have, and gave it to the homicide office up there, and then i went to my room, which is room . mr. griffin. now, so at the time you prepared this letter dated--let me ask you this: let me hand you exhibit . is that a true and accurate copy of a report that you wrote out in the homicide bureau? mr. cutchshaw. let me take a minute here [reading report]. you mean word for word? mr. griffin. let me ask you this: i notice you pulled out a set of papers from your pocket. you have a copy of the actual report you prepared? mr. cutchshaw. yes; i have a copy which is one of the xerox copies of the report which i wrote. mr. griffin. would you mind if we made a photocopy of that? and retain it for our files? mr. cutchshaw. no, sir; i don't. in fact, it looks like--that is my handwritten copy. i don't know whether you can read it or not. mr. griffin. now, i think i can make out your handwriting here. i am referring now to the copy of the handwritten report which detective crenshaw prepared on november , , in the homicide bureau office. approximately how long after ruby shot oswald? mr. cutchshaw. about minutes. mr. griffin. could it have been longer than that? mr. cutchshaw. it could have been longer, but it was approximately minutes. mr. griffin. could it have been as long as hours later? mr. cutchshaw. i think it was that long. it might have been the way things were, but i remember when i left the basement, i did go upstairs, and i did go to the homicide office and that is where i wrote the report. mr. griffin. did you go up to homicide because somebody in the basement told you to go up and write a report on what you saw? mr. cutchshaw. right. mr. griffin. who was that? mr. cutchshaw. captain jones. i know he told me. mr. griffin. all right. mr. cutchshaw. and there was a standing order to put it down in writing what you saw and what you did. mr. griffin. was this after everything had been quieted down in the basement? mr. cutchshaw. yes; well, now, i am losing track of my time again. mr. griffin. it is important that we try to straighten this out. mr. cutchshaw. let's see. i will have to retract some of them. i don't want to state it that way. but so far as what i have said, it is true, but as far as my time element is concerned, when i left, i had to go up to the first floor, and i kept seeing people coming in and out. we have three entrances. the harwood, main and commerce, and i think there was four of us which were taking names of people coming in and leaving, and checking their identification. mr. griffin. which entrance was it you were at? mr. cutchshaw. i was checking the commerce side. i was inside the building close to the information desk, but checking those coming in and leaving the commerce street entrance to the building. so it might have been about hours after, because i know i was down there for quite awhile. mr. griffin. when you were at the commerce street side, were you at the door going out of the building? mr. cutchshaw. no; i was in the hallway close to the entrance of the hallway. mr. griffin. as you said before, closer to the information desk? mr. cutchshaw. closer to the information where the hallway is in front of the desk. mr. griffin. that is on the first floor and not in the basement? mr. cutchshaw. right. it is on the first floor. mr. griffin. do you recall who was up there with you taking names? mr. cutchshaw. no; i don't. mr. griffin. was lowery there? mr. cutchshaw. no; i don't think so. mr. griffin. was harrison there? mr. cutchshaw. i don't think he was there. mr. griffin. anybody from the juvenile bureau there? mr. cutchshaw. i was the only one from the juvenile. there was about four or five officers, two at the desk and one at the harwood side there, checking those, and one on the other side of the desk checking those coming from the main street, and i was on commerce street. mr. griffin. did you tell any of the people up there what you had seen? mr. cutchshaw. no; not that i can remember. you mean what i saw down in the basement? mr. griffin. yes; about your suspicion about those guys pushing the camera. mr. cutchshaw. no. mr. griffin. now, were you taken off that duty by anybody? mr. cutchshaw. yes. lieutenant came down and told us it was all right to secure, that everything was settled down, and that is when i left and went up to the homicide office and wrote my report. mr. griffin. when did you get the instructions to write a report on this? mr. cutchshaw. down in the basement. mr. griffin. before you got stationed? mr. cutchshaw. before i had to go upstairs: yes. mr. griffin. now, at the time captain jones gave you those instructions down there, had the basement sort of quieted down? mr. cutchshaw. yes. mr. griffin. did he give instructions to a bunch of you standing in a group, or were you all spread out, or how did it happen? mr. cutchshaw. i think there were two or three of us there, and i asked about it, and told him, and he said, "the information is good," but he said, "put it down in writing so you will be able to refer to it later." mr. griffin. who else was there at the time? mr. cutchshaw. i don't remember who all was there. mr. griffin. so, now, on the basis of what you told us, what would be your best estimate of how long it was after you saw this cameraman come through that you wrote this report? and when i say on the basis of what you said, i don't mean that i want you to conform to anything you have said, but taking into account all the discussion we have had now, what is your best judgment as to how long it was? mr. cutchshaw. about an hour and a half or hours. mr. griffin. now, when you took the names of the two men you found at the camera---- mr. cutchshaw. i didn't take the names. mr. griffin. lowery took those names? mr. cutchshaw. yes. mr. griffin. how were those two men dressed? mr. cutchshaw. one of them had on a long black coat. one of these kind of, like a raincoat--topcoat combination deal, and the other one, best i can remember, had on a greenish shirt and khaki trousers. mr. griffin. where had those two men, as you recall, where had they been on the camera as it was being pushed through? mr. cutchshaw. you mean where? how were they positioned there? mr. griffin. where was the man in the black coat? mr. cutchshaw. the man in the black coat was on the left side of the camera, and the other one was on the right. mr. griffin. there was one man in between? mr. cutchshaw. as far as i can remember, yes. mr. griffin. did you discuss that man with those people that you and lowery confronted? mr. cutchshaw. you mean the two men at the camera? mr. griffin. yes. mr. cutchshaw. yes. mr. griffin. did you ask them where the third man was? mr. cutchshaw. i asked them where the third man was who had helped them with the camera, and they told me they didn't know there was any third man there. mr. griffin. did you ask those men where that camera had been before it came through the double doors? mr. cutchshaw. no. mr. griffin. have you subsequently learned where it was before it came through the double doors? mr. cutchshaw. yes. i heard it had been up on the third floor, and that they were bringing it down because it had the telescopic lens, and they were wanting to get a shot taking oswald up the ramp to the armored car. mr. griffin. did you learn the names of the two men that you talked with out at that camera? mr. cutchshaw. i have not since then, no. at the time, i thought one was named john alexander, but i don't know what their names are. mr. griffin. when lowery saw you questioning those two men, do you recall if lowery at that time remembered that there had been a third man on the camera? mr. cutchshaw. well, when i called him over there, i told him what i had, and he said, "yes, he remembered a third man being with them." mr. griffin. but lowery came over at your beckoning? mr. cutchshaw. yes. mr. griffin. lowery did not come over spontaneously? mr. cutchshaw. yes. mr. griffin. when you arrived up in the homicide office to write your report, who was there? mr. cutchshaw. lowery was there, and there was some officers from the homicide bureau there, and captain fritz was in his office, and i think there was a secret service man there with him. i don't know what his name was. i was told it was a secret service man. mr. griffin. did you know l. d. montgomery? mr. cutchshaw. you mean the detective? mr. griffin. yes. mr. cutchshaw. yes. mr. griffin. do you recall whether he was there? mr. cutchshaw. i don't recall whether he was or not. mr. griffin. was blackie harrison there when you arrived? mr. cutchshaw. i think he was there in the office. i believe he was in there, and there was lieutenant wallace. i just don't remember who else was there. i know the place was full. mr. griffin. who else was there? let me ask you--i want to ask you here to speculate a little bit but at the same time to give me an honest opinion on this. you have had a chance to talk with many police officers, i presume, about all the events that took place, and you know of all the rumors that there have been about the man walking down the main street ramp and so forth and so on. do you still feel--can you tell me whether or not you still have a belief that jack ruby might have been the man who pushed that camera in, in your own mind? mr. cutchshaw. well, in my own mind, i can tell you this: i did see the third man with the camera, and it struck me so strange that only two men--there were three men, but still only two were trying to push the camera, and that is the reason i went out and contacted the two men. let me tell you, i did learn from lieutenant wallace--that is one of the investigators on the thing for the city--one of you might have talked with him--that you contacted the crews on this camera--and he did say that a man that was with these cameras over here that at about--see, there is a slight decline in this area right here where lowery was. mr. griffin. there was a decline where lowery was standing? mr. cutchshaw. at the time that that camera was being pushed, a man came from this crew over here and helped them push it on down. if there is where i got the three men, but i do remember seeing three men on that camera. mr. griffin. and, in other words, somebody came over to the two-man crew? mr. cutchshaw. off one of these cameras here. channel already had one camera down here, but they said--that is where i got the reason for this--they brought the wide angle lens and they wanted one of the telescopic lens to get a shot of him walking up the ramp to where the armored car was. but still i did see three men pushing that camera through here. (discussion off the record.) mr. griffin. let's put this on the record. now, as i understand the story that you heard was that a man came from the two tv cameras, from the channel camera that was already stationed behind a railing? mr. cutchshaw. all right. mr. griffin. and came off and assisted two other men who had already been pushing that camera through the door, and that man reached the camera at approximately when that camera was near lowery? mr. cutchshaw. that is what i was told, what i heard. mr. griffin. now, if that were true, do you think as you look at--out in the area toward where lowery and that camera would have been at that point, that you would have seen a man walk over there to that camera? mr. cutchshaw. if i had been looking there at that time, i could have; yes. mr. griffin. all right. now, what i am getting at is, the area that was in front of those two stationery tv cameras was clear, wasn't it? mr. cutchshaw. yes; because the cameras and lights were right here. and they had lights up here shining in here. mr. griffin. yes. mr. cutchshaw. now, the camera came this route here through these swinging doors. mr. griffin. did you see it come through the swinging doors? mr. cutchshaw. yes; i saw it coming through the swinging doors because these doors came open and they come through, and i was standing right here. i wasn't right exactly at the corner door, but i was in the doorway at the time. i held one of the doors open when they came through, and the camera came right on down here and was parked in this area. mr. griffin. you are indicating on the chart that it was pushed through the swinging doors where lowery was stationed and over to the point that you have marked it as the final resting place in the garage entrance? mr. cutchshaw. that is where i saw it; yes. mr. griffin. you have also been told that this same channel had some other new camera behind the railing? mr. cutchshaw. right. mr. griffin. now, in front of that railing, was that area in front of the railing clear of people at the time that that camera came through? mr. cutchshaw. i don't remember whether it was exactly clear or not. i know that right after the camera came through, that these men down here started hollering to everyone to clear back. evidently some were standing in front of the cameras down there and that is why they had to clear them out. so far as i remember, most of the people were standing here, and in front of the door, and on the south side of the hallway into the ramp, and on the north side of the hallway, and into the ramp there. mr. griffin. now, this guy you say had on a dark suit? mr. cutchshaw. right. mr. griffin. do you recall if he had on a hat? mr. cutchshaw. i do not, because the man i saw was bent over pushing like that [indicating]. all three is what struck me strange that all three of them, not one was putting all his weight, but all three were bent over pushing like that. mr. griffin. at the time that you ran for those tv cameras after the shooting, did you know that jack ruby had been the person who shot oswald? mr. cutchshaw. i knew that. i helped carry the man through the jail office doors to the jail office, and while i was there standing guard on the doors, someone said who is he, and a guy said it is jack ruby. and i was standing in the door when a doctor came in right after we got ruby in there and they brought oswald, and immediately thereafter, someone was banging on the door trying to get through, and i tried to push him out, and he said he was a doctor, and that he had been called. and i run my hand down his side and he had the stethoscope in his right hand coat pocket, and i let him through. mr. griffin. so, by the time you ran to the tv cameras, you knew that ruby was the man? mr. cutchshaw. i knew that ruby was the man. they said he was jack ruby. mr. griffin. now, if you had seen the third man after it reached, or as it reached lowery, do you think you would have seen that man move from the tv cameras to the channel camera that was stationed behind the railing? do you think you would have seen him move from there to the position of the camera? mr. cutchshaw. well, let me put it this way: i didn't just watch this camera all the way through, because it done past this point, and the next time i saw it, i remember seeing it when i was looking through the square glass in the door when i was holding it to, and i saw the two men push it up here. so, i don't know whether i was looking at the camera at the time i was down here, but i didn't see anyone go around to the camera. mr. griffin. at the time that the tv camera came through the door, the double doors, you were looking through another glass? mr. cutchshaw. no; now at the time it came through the door, this door was being opened from the inside. mr. griffin. this single door that entered into the jail office opened inward toward the jail office, and it didn't obstruct your view? mr. cutchshaw. no; they came through the swinging door. i was standing in the doorway and i held this door open. mr. griffin. you held open the swinging doors for them? mr. cutchshaw. right; when they came through. mr. griffin. you pulled it back toward yourself? mr. cutchshaw. they were already going past, and i grabbed ahold. mr. griffin. so, the swinging doors were between you, your face and them? mr. cutchshaw. no; i was standing at the edge of this swinging door holding it back for them. mr. griffin. so, you were behind the swinging doors when you were holding the end of the swinging door, and you were off to the side? mr. cutchshaw. right. mr. griffin. and there was nothing on part of that door which was between you and them? mr. cutchshaw. no. mr. griffin. how far away would you say you were from those men at that point? mr. cutchshaw. about feet. maybe , or i could have reached out and put my hand on one of them. mr. griffin. could you see the faces of those men? mr. cutchshaw. the one on the left, the one that had on a black coat, when he came through, he looked up like that and he was pushing on through. mr. griffin. when you ultimately met over there, you confronted those men afterward and saw the man in the black coat, was it the same man that turned up and looked at you? mr. cutchshaw. yes. mr. griffin. is there any question in your mind about that? mr. cutchshaw. no; i remember his nose real good. mr. griffin. now, after those men passed you, did you let the doors swing back, or did you walk back with it, or what did you do? mr. cutchshaw. i just turned loose of it. there was another officer that closed right in behind them. mr. griffin. there were other officers that closed in behind the tv cameramen? mr. cutchshaw. yes. mr. griffin. where did those officers go? mr. cutchshaw. they just stood there. there were some standing in front of the door at the time. mr. griffin. but you didn't follow them through the door? mr. cutchshaw. no. they were already stationed there, and then when they started pushing through, the doors came open, and the officers just moved aside. mr. griffin. as that door swung shut, do you recall whether you then looked back up the hallway from which that camera had come to see if other people were coming down, or whether you might have looked in toward the jail office, or whether you continued to watch them go on? mr. cutchshaw. i don't remember. mr. griffin. do you remember any activity back here in that hallway immediately after you let go of that swinging door? mr. cutchshaw. well, just a little, maybe a minute or two. mr. griffin. later? mr. cutchshaw. yes. mr. griffin. but not immediately thereafter? do you have any recollection of seeing anything back there immediately thereafter? mr. cutchshaw. well, right after, right after this, the doors came to here, a man stepped away from the wall over there, the one i told you previously where one came into the hallway. mr. griffin. a newspaperman? a newspaper person? mr. cutchshaw. yes. mr. griffin. stepped away from this area where you have the "n" marked? mr. cutchshaw. right. mr. griffin. where did he walk to? mr. cutchshaw. he walked out toward the swinging doors and motioned for somebody to come out. mr. griffin. and your attention was attracted to him? mr. cutchshaw. yes. mr. griffin. now, did you actually see that man move away? mr. cutchshaw. yes. who moved away from right here and stepped about half way from where he was standing up to the swinging doors. mr. griffin. all right. have you watched the movies of all this? mr. cutchshaw. i just seen it one time. mr. griffin. all right. are you able to state whether what you are telling us now is from your own knowledge, or is it confused with anything you may have seen in the movies? mr. cutchshaw. because i remember when he stepped out, i made him get back, and i told him to get back up against the wall. mr. griffin. do you recall whether you were looking in his direction when he did this, or whether your attention was attracted to him and then you had to look at him? mr. cutchshaw. i think i was looking in the hallway in this area here when he stepped out, and he stepped, there was only about two steps. mr. griffin. you say in this area here. you mean you were looking in the direction of lowery? mr. cutchshaw. yes, in here. mr. griffin. she can't write that. i am going to have to explain for the record. were you looking in the direction of lowery, or in the direction of the railing? mr. cutchshaw. well, in the direction of the tv camera which was being pushed out at this time. mr. griffin. that man walked out, and you got out to motion somebody in, and you pushed him back? mr. cutchshaw. i told him to get back up against the wall. mr. griffin. at that point do you believe that if somebody had walked out from the channel camera that was already in place behind the railing, are you able to state whether or not you would have seen him get in position and help push that other camera? mr. cutchshaw. well, that is kind of hard to say, because when i looked out here and he stepped out there, and i told him to get back, i don't know whether i would notice anybody at that camera, because my attention at this time was at the man that stepped away from the hallway. mr. griffin. however, whatever struck your attention to the general placement of the people in front of those tv cameras, do you recall whether there were people in front of the tv cameras at any time before you saw this other tv camera come out of the hallway? mr. cutchshaw. whether they were exactly in front of the tv cameras, i don't know, but i know there was lots of people along this north wall and in the driveway. mr. griffin. you are not indicating anything that is directly in front of the tv camera? mr. cutchshaw. well, shortly after this camera came through, someone hollered, "here they come," or else i think i forget, or "they are on their way down"--we have lights on the basement showing where the elevator is coming down, and someone hollered to clear the way for the cameras--to get out from in front of the cameras--but as far as me telling how many people were in front of the cameras, i don't know. mr. griffin. had you ever talked to lowery about whether he saw some man come from the channel stationary camera and help push the moving camera into that space? mr. cutchshaw. now, lowery and i were talking when lieutenant wallace told us--he said, if i remember right, wallace, he says, "i believe i think i found out where you got the third man." and we asked him where, and he said he found out from the crew that a man came from the other channel camera that was already in the basement and helped them down this short incline, because the camera was rocking. and i said, "i don't remember anybody, but i do remember seeing three men on the camera." and, lowery said the same thing, that he did remember seeing the three men. but i don't remember anybody coming from here to the camera. mr. griffin. let's go ahead now, sir. when you were up there filling out your report in the homicide office--when you talked with these men that you finally detained after the shooting, the two men that you detained, did you describe to them the third man that was with them? mr. cutchshaw. no. mr. griffin. when you asked them where is the third man and he said there wasn't, what did they say? mr. cutchshaw. they just told me that there wasn't any, that if there was a third man there, they didn't know about it. mr. griffin. was anybody else standing with you at the time they said that? mr. cutchshaw. i believe officer lowery was there at that time. but the first thing, i went right out there and got a hold of both of them and asked them, "where is the other man that came out with them." and he said, "there wasn't any other man." and i said, "i know there were three men with you when you came out." and he said, "if there was one between us, they don't know nothing about it." and i don't remember whether officer lowery was there, but i don't think he was there, but we did question them again, and i still think there was a third man. mr. griffin. how about officer swain, did he make that denial to swain? mr. cutchshaw. i don't really know, because that is when i left and had to go up to the first floor. lowery started getting their names and they talked to lieutenant swain and told them what it was, and he said, "go ahead and get their names and ask where they are going to be." mr. griffin. who was it that came up to you and told you that he had found out, had an explanation for the third man. mr. cutchshaw. lieutenant wallace. mr. griffin. how long was that after sunday, november ? mr. cutchshaw. i imagine that was maybe a week or two, because through their investigation they tried to contact everybody that was down there. it was quite some time. the exact amount of days, i don't know, but it was quite some time after that he explained it to us. mr. griffin. when you got up to the homicide office, did lowery fill out a report? mr. cutchshaw. yes. mr. griffin. did harrison fill out a report while you were out there? mr. cutchshaw. i think he did. mr. griffin. did you all talk about this when you were up there? mr. cutchshaw. yes; i believe we did. mr. griffin. i take it that you were all--as a matter of fact, this was probably a matter of general interest to everybody up there, don't you imagine? mr. cutchshaw. right. mr. griffin. you think anybody could have been in that office without knowing what you guys had seen? mr. cutchshaw. i think so, because we don't tell everybody up there in the office. of course, at the time we wrote out a report, i think there was me, lowery, and i believe harrison did come back and start writing out his, and i think lieutenant wallace, and he said put down what you saw and what you know only, and that is the way i wrote out my report. mr. griffin. you mentioned the guys you were talking with about it, so anybody other than you and lowery who might have been there could have heard it and might have told it to somebody else? mr. cutchshaw. possibly; yes. but we didn't talk a whole lot while we were writing the report. we just sat down and wrote it out. mr. griffin. how about after you wrote the report? mr. cutchshaw. yes. we went back to our office and shot the bull and gabbed about it. mr. griffin. and speculated about it? mr. cutchshaw. right. mr. griffin. did other people come in there? mr. cutchshaw. yes. mr. griffin. how about other members of the juvenile bureau? mr. cutchshaw. yes. mr. griffin. was officer goolsby there? mr. cutchshaw. in the office. mr. griffin. yes. mr. cutchshaw. yes. mr. griffin. was martin there? mr. cutchshaw. yes; he was out there quite a bit. mr. griffin. was miller there? mr. cutchshaw. yes. mr. griffin. can you think of anybody else who was in that office after you had written out your report and were talking about this? mr. cutchshaw. well, let's see. there was a reporter up there. you mean so far as officers is concerned, or just anybody? mr. griffin. give me just the officers first. mr. cutchshaw. i believe june mcline, and then i believe that covered all the officers and myself and harrison and miller, and goolsby, and mcline, and then there were other officers, i know, but i don't know who all they were. i don't remember. and they had that one little reporter from up north somewhere. mr. griffin. one of those yankee reporters? mr. cutchshaw. right. mr. griffin. like cleveland, ohio, maybe? mr. cutchshaw. i don't know where he was from, but i didn't like him very much. then there was a french reporter. mr. griffin. a french reporter was up there? mr. cutchshaw. yes. mr. griffin. had you seen that french reporter when you were down in the basement? mr. cutchshaw. i think so. i'm not going to swear, because there were so darn many of them. mr. griffin. had you seen that french reporter there before this? mr. cutchshaw. yes; because he and some other reporters from up north, they kind of made our office their office, you might say. that was their base of operation. mr. griffin. what did that french reporter tell you? did he see that tv camera come through? mr. cutchshaw. i didn't talk to him about it or ask him. mr. griffin. did any of the people who were up there in the office indicate they had also seen the tv camera come through? mr. cutchshaw. i think goolsby said he saw the camera come through but he didn't remember anything about who was pushing it or anything. mr. griffin. now, off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. griffin. did you view the tv film with these men coming through? mr. cutchshaw. yes. mr. griffin. from your recollection of that tv film, could you see the third man on the camera pushing it through? mr. cutchshaw. no; the only two i could see was just the two that i gave a description. it was one on the right that had, i think, the greenish-type shirt, and the one on the left that had the black coat. mr. griffin. try to remember that tv film. did that tv film which you saw, did that show the camera as it came through the door? mr. cutchshaw. yes. mr. griffin. now, did it show the man looking up at you? mr. cutchshaw. i don't remember whether it did or not. mr. griffin. is the camera shot taken from such a position that if there had been a third man behind the camera, it would have showed up on the tv picture? mr. cutchshaw. now, the camera shot on this one that was coming up on the door was a straight-on shot, and whether they would show up, i didn't see any other man. if he had been there, he would be directly behind the stand. mr. griffin. do you recall how far that tv picture of the men coming out of the swinging doors follows the camera as it proceeds through the swinging doors? out past lowery? does it show lowery up on the tv? mr. cutchshaw. i don't remember whether it does or not, because at the time i saw the film, i was just looking at the camera to see whether i could see anybody behind it or not. the way the picture was on the film, it shows the camera coming out, and it was passing out of range of the tv camera that was taking the pictures at the time. mr. griffin. now, how soon after oswald was shot did you view those tv films? mr. cutchshaw. i don't remember. mr. griffin. was it before or after lieutenant wallace reported to you that he could solve the problem of the third man? mr. cutchshaw. i believe it was after. mr. griffin. you saw the film after you talked to wallace? mr. cutchshaw. right. mr. griffin. do you recall in looking at those tv films whether you show up in the tv film? mr. cutchshaw. on one of the films i do, but whether it was on the tv or one of the camera pictures, i don't remember. mr. griffin. now, on the films that you watched, do you recall whether those films show you looking at the men? mr. cutchshaw. like i say, i don't even remember seeing them. you know, one showed me, but i think i was looking almost straight out at an angle from the door where i was standing. mr. griffin. in any other films which you have seen, is there depicted the episode where the newsmen moved out from the position that you have marked with an "n" on the north wall of the entranceway to between the jail office and the ramp? does it show that man coming out and your motioning him back as you have described? mr. cutchshaw. no; i don't remember. mr. griffin. i am asking you these questions because i am trying to get you to refresh your recollection even more. now, detective cutchshaw, we all know that shortly after ruby shot oswald, a certain amount of heat was focused on blackie harrison. you are aware of that, aren't you? mr. cutchshaw. yes. mr. griffin. now, i want you to tell me honestly--i think you have tried to be strictly forthright to me in describing this camera. do you think that your concern about harrison in any way has affected what you remembered about this event? mr. cutchshaw. none whatsoever. mr. griffin. didn't harrison indicate shortly after this event that he was worried about this, because ruby had come right past him? mr. cutchshaw. yes. mr. griffin. didn't he talk about that by the time you got back to the juvenile bureau? mr. cutchshaw. i don't remember whether he talked about it; he just said that he remembered seeing this man come out and this gun come up, and he described to me, but as far as him saying he was worried about it, i don't remember that. as far as any reflection on himself---- mr. griffin. i was not trying to talk particularly about whether blackie saw jack there a few minutes ago. honestly, i don't care to know if that is true, but to me, that is no reflection on him. but it is very important for us to find out what happened, because if we don't know what happened, we have to speculate and wonder whether there was somebody else involved here. mr. cutchshaw. well, let me tell you: i came down here. a lot of people say i need a lawyer, but i don't want one because i came down to tell you the truth and just the way i saw it. i told you what i saw. of course, some of my time elements are a little bit this way, but i said what i saw, and the only thing i did tell you---- mr. griffin. i want you to tell me, and this is what is important, what you feel at this point, what your motivation, unconscious or conscious, is in this, and i don't expect you to tell me that blackie thought that he saw the man or anybody else, but i want to know if you feel that what you have told me today in such a determined and what appeared to me forthright fashion, is based, is affected in any way because of the concern of anybody in the juvenile bureau, about harrison and lowery and miller and anybody else in the bureau who was down there, and in particular to have seen ruby if he came in? mr. cutchshaw. i believe that if blackie harrison had seen ruby come in, he would have put him out. mr. griffin. now, to what extent, i want to know, do you think that this concern of your affects your story, honestly? i could tell this story and honestly believe everything i am telling, but yet we all know unconsciously our emotions are affected. how much are you being affected by that concern of harrison? mr. cutchshaw. none of my story or anything i have told you has been affected in any way for any concern for any one person in the department. i came down here to tell you this, and everything is just the way i saw it. and as far as concern for any one individual, i don't have any. now, blackie is a friend of mine, and i have known him for a long time. i have no concern for him, because i don't think he did anything wrong. and i think if he had seen the man, he would have put him out. mr. griffin. even if he had seen and hadn't put him out? mr. cutchshaw. even if he had seen and hadn't put him out, then he did the wrong thing. mr. griffin. and you think he would have been disciplined for that, too, don't you? mr. cutchshaw. i believe he would be disciplined for that, too, and he would be, if he had seen the man and hadn't put him out. mr. griffin. do you think that if blackie knew that he wouldn't be disciplined for this, and if somebody were to tell him now that he wouldn't be disciplined and it wouldn't be made known to anybody in the public or even anybody in the police department, and it actually turned out blackie did see this guy, do you think blackie would tell us about that? mr. cutchshaw. i believe he would. blackie is an honest man. in fact, the way it is right now, if he had saw the man, i believe he would tell you he had. mr. griffin. you heard the story that blackie had taken some sort of medicine before he took that lie detector test? mr. cutchshaw. no; i haven't. mr. griffin. you haven't heard that story? mr. cutchshaw. no. mr. griffin. you are concerned, i take it, about the department, though you said you are not concerned about any particular man in the department, but you are concerned about the department? mr. cutchshaw. as far as doing anything wrong? mr. griffin. yes. mr. cutchshaw. no, sir. mr. griffin. well, you act---- mr. cutchshaw. the way you are talking is that i am concerned that i think we have done something wrong. i don't think there is one wrongdoing, as far as the officers are concerned and what happened down there. i didn't think like that. departmental wise or individualwise, there are things pro and con of what should have happened and what shouldn't have happened. one way of looking, there shouldn't have been any news media, and maybe they shouldn't have been spread out that way, but we would have caught the dickens that way. and, as i heard, chief curry had the okay from a little higher up to go ahead and have the news media, and it didn't turn out too good. but as far as wrongdoings, there is not one wrong thing that happened as far as our department is concerned. mr. griffin. how about lowery? are you much of a friend with lowery? mr. cutchshaw. we ride to work together and run around a bit together. mr. griffin. how friendly are you with harrison? mr. cutchshaw. we are good friends, but as far as running around, he lives way over in pleasant grove, and i live in grand prairie. it is way across town, so we don't get around together. mr. griffin. lowery had seen ruby. did lowery know ruby? mr. cutchshaw. did he recognize ruby before? mr. griffin. he had seen ruby on a number of occasions, actually, didn't he before? mr. cutchshaw. you mean before this happened? mr. griffin. yes. mr. cutchshaw. i tell you the truth, i really don't know. i think he said he knew him, or seen him around, but as far as actual standing there, i don't know. mr. griffin. did you see captain king in the basement at any time prior to the shooting? mr. cutchshaw. well, now, that i don't remember whether i saw him down there prior to the shooting or whether it was after. there was a whole bunch of officers down there, and, man, i do remember a few immediately right there, and someone that came out the door, because i was right there and watched them as they came out. mr. griffin. well, now, if you and captain king had been standing together and you both saw ruby and you both knew ruby, what would you do? mr. cutchshaw. well, now, you mean if we saw him come into the basement, or if we saw him standing there? mr. griffin. saw him standing down there and you were both standing there together? mr. cutchshaw. well, that is something that is pretty hard to say, honestly, because the basement is supposed to be secured when we went down there. in other words, everybody that wasn't supposed to be there, was supposed to be out, and they had officers checking them coming in, and me not knowing ruby, i probably wouldn't have known him if i had been shown him on the street. mr. griffin. if you knew ruby and you both were standing there, if you knew him and you and captain king were standing there, and you knew captain king was looking at him too---- mr. cutchshaw. i would have tried to find out what he was doing, knowing he wasn't a newsman or couldn't have a news pass. mr. griffin. would you have deferred to captain king or any other superior officer? would you let him take the initiative on it? mr. cutchshaw. i would have asked him myself if i had seen him, because that is what we were down there for. mr. griffin. what i am trying to get at, and the only reason i use captain king--i could have used chief batchelor or anybody like that, but my point is, that if a junior officer like you and a senior officer were standing together, is there any feeling that you would defer to the senior officer to take the initiative in throwing some guy out? mr. cutchshaw. if he were in charge of me or in charge of security and if i saw jack ruby there and he didn't have a pass on and i knew him and knew that he was not a news representative, then if i confronted him and he said, "chief batchelor said it was okay," then i would have asked the chief if it was all right. otherwise, i wouldn't say the chief had anything to do with it and i would put him out. mr. griffin. so, if you had seen him first, you would have gone directly to him and then turned to your superior officer and said what shall i do about this guy? mr. cutchshaw. i would have went directly to him. mr. griffin. you would have gone directly to him. do you think that is true of any other officer or do you think some of them would have acted different? mr. cutchshaw. that is hard to say, not knowing every officer's traits. some operate one way and some operate another. mr. griffin. i want you to examine cutchshaw exhibits nos. , , , , and , and if there are no further additions or corrections to make to those in addition to all this we have been talking about, then i would like you to sign each one of these and date them. mr. cutchshaw. where do you want me to sign? mr. griffin. sign it in a conspicuous place where i have placed the mark on the paper. sign your name and date it. regular signature or full name. testimony of napoleon j. daniels the testimony of napoleon j. daniels was taken at : p.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. leon d. hubert, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. hubert. my name is leon hubert, mr. daniels. i'm a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the president's commission under the provisions of executive order , dated november , , and joint resolution of congress no. , and the rules of procedure adopted by the commission in conformance with the executive order and the joint resolution, and i have been authorized to take the sworn deposition from you, mr. daniels. i state to you now that the general nature of the commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and to report on the facts relating to the assassination of president kennedy and the subsequent violent death of lee harvey oswald. in particular as to you, mr. daniels, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry, and, of course, about the entry of jack ruby into the basement of the police department. now, mr. daniels, i think you have appeared here today by virtue of a written request sent to you by mail. mr. daniels. yes, sir. mr. hubert. and signed by mr. j. lee rankin. mr. daniels. correct. mr. hubert. general counsel of the president's commission. mr. daniels. yes, sir. mr. hubert. did you receive that letter more than days ago? mr. daniels. yes; i received it saturday, i believe. mr. hubert. last saturday? mr. daniels. yes. mr. hubert. let the record show that this is thursday. mr. daniels. it has been days. mr. hubert. will you raise your right hand, stand, and take the oath, please? do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. daniels. i do. mr. hubert. state your full name? mr. daniels. napoleon j. daniels. mr. hubert. your age? mr. daniels. thirty-two. mr. hubert. and your residence? mr. daniels. sutter [spelling] s-u-t-t-e-r. mr. hubert. what is your occupation, mr. daniels? mr. daniels. real estate broker. mr. hubert. how long have you been so occupied? mr. daniels. about years. mr. hubert. i think you own your own company? mr. daniels. that's right. mr. hubert. you were at one time connected with the police department, were you not? mr. daniels. yes; about years. mr. hubert. about years? mr. daniels. yes. mr. hubert. when did you leave the police department? mr. daniels. i left there in november . mr. hubert. what were the circumstances under which you left? mr. daniels. let me see just how i can put this--well, i resigned, of course, i was asked to resign because of some conflicts i had with a tenant living in one of my apartments. mr. hubert. that is to say, you rented out some property to a tenant and you had some difficulty with the tenant? mr. daniels. yes. mr. hubert. and on account of that difficulty they asked you to resign from the police department? mr. daniels. yes. mr. hubert. you did resign? mr. daniels. yes. mr. hubert. and have you continued in the business under the name n. j. daniels real estate co.? mr. daniels. that's right, sir. mr. hubert. is that a corporation? mr. daniels. no; just a company. mr. hubert. now, i know you have already made a statement to the fbi, as a matter of fact, i think you have made two statements, one to the state police--i would now just like for you to tell us what you know of entry of jack ruby into the basement? mr. daniels. well, actually, i don't feel like i really know anything, but i saw a guy go in the basement, but i don't think it was ruby. mr. hubert. let's start off with that morning, of course, you knew that the president had been killed? mr. daniels. yes. mr. hubert. and as i understand, you were riding in your own car over towards the place where he was killed? mr. daniels. yes, i was going out main street. i was going--let's see, that was sunday morning and i was going down main street to look at the spot where the president had been assassinated and as i drove by the city hall, i noticed a bunch of people standing around and noticed this officer standing in the entrance to the basement. mr. hubert. on main street? mr. daniels. yes; on main street, and so i made the block and turned around and came back and parked. mr. hubert. where did you park? mr. daniels. pardon? mr. hubert. where did you park? mr. daniels. on main there, right down from the city hall there, i guess about a half a block down. mr. hubert. on the other side of the street? mr. daniels. on the same side of the city hall, you see, i went around and came back. mr. hubert. you went around what street? mr. daniels. now, that first street down, i guess that's--i was going down main and turned, i believe the first block. mr. hubert. would that have been pearl? mr. daniels. no; you see, i was going west on main and the first street i could turn--i think the first street is a one way going left, but i turned and came back the other way, so it must have been ervay where i turned and went up to pacific and then come back up to harwood and then came down harwood to main and made a left on main and parked up in a vacant space on the other side of the city hall--on the east side of the city hall. mr. hubert. i thought you had parked at a parking lot near the western union office? mr. daniels. no; it wasn't a parking lot. i was thinking i parked on the street. mr. hubert. you parked on the street? mr. daniels. yes. mr. hubert. was it near the western union office? mr. daniels. yes; right down from the city hall. in other words, it was in between there and the city hall. mr. hubert. but you were parked on main street? mr. daniels. on the south side of main. mr. hubert. not in a parking lot? mr. daniels. no; i wasn't at a parking lot, no, i think i parked on the street, i'm sure. mr. hubert. and you parked on the same side of the street as the city hall and as the police department is and as the western union office is? mr. daniels. yes. mr. hubert. and you parked at a spot between the western union office and the main street entrance of the city hall? mr. daniels. right. mr. hubert. or the police department? mr. daniels. yes. mr. hubert. you are familiar with that building, because you worked there for a long time? mr. daniels. yes. mr. hubert. would you say you were about half way between the western union and the main ramp, or just what distance between those two? mr. daniels. oh, let me see, let me get it in my mind--i would say i was a little nearer the western union building than i was to the entrance of the basement of the city hall. mr. hubert. are you familiar with that alley that goes from main street back in towards commerce and makes an "l" and comes out on pearl street? mr. daniels. i think i was just on the east side of that. mr. hubert. when you say "east," it doesn't mean anything to me. mr. daniels. near pearl. mr. hubert. in other words, you were on the western union side of the alley? mr. daniels. right. mr. hubert. and your car was facing towards the western union? mr. daniels. right. mr. hubert. now, about what time was it when you got there? mr. daniels. near o'clock--i wasn't paying much attention to the time, it must have been near o'clock or a little after. mr. hubert. how do you fix that? mr. daniels. well, i'm trying to fix it at about the time oswald was shot. now, i was there about or or minutes before it happened. mr. hubert. when you parked your car, did you sit in your car any length of time at all? mr. daniels. no; i got out and walked back up there. mr. hubert. you mean you immediately got out and walked back up to the main door--the main door entrance? mr. daniels. yes. mr. hubert. now, i'm going to show you a drawing, which among other things includes the entrance to the basement, and i am marking it for the purpose of identification as follows: "dallas, tex., april , , exhibit no. , deposition of n. j. daniels," and i am marking it with my name. i would like you to study this, and i point out to you that this is main street, here is the western union office, and here is pearl. mr. daniels. yes. mr. hubert. over in that direction would be harwood, commerce is over here. mr. daniels. right. mr. hubert. this is the main street entrance? mr. daniels. yes. mr. hubert. the sidewalk. mr. daniels. yes. mr. hubert. and i think you are familiar with the fact that there is a stone fence about feet high that runs from the entrance of main street toward the street some distance. mr. daniels. yes. mr. hubert. now, as i understand it, you were parked on main street itself? mr. daniels. yes. mr. hubert. facing towards the western union building? mr. daniels. this side of the street. mr. hubert. on the same side of the street as the western union building? mr. daniels. yes. mr. hubert. and that you reached there at approximately o'clock? mr. daniels. yes; at approximately o'clock. mr. hubert. you immediately got out of your car and you walked toward the main street ramp? mr. daniels. yes. mr. hubert. when you got down there, did you go past the ramp, or did you stay on the western union side of the ramp? mr. daniels. i think when i first got there, i walked over in front of the little entrance down in there. mr. hubert. so you could look right down the ramp? mr. daniels. so i could look in there, because i was on the sidewalk when i did that. mr. hubert. did you know officer vaughn? mr. daniels. yes; i did. mr. hubert. you had known him from the time you were on the police force? mr. daniels. yes. mr. hubert. did he recognize you? mr. daniels. yes. mr. hubert. and you went to the middle of the ramp, but still on the sidewalk and looked down the sidewalk? mr. daniels. yes. mr. hubert. did you stay there very long? mr. daniels. no; i spoke to him and he told me that he was blocking anybody's entrance, in other words, that's what he meant, that he was blocking anybody's entrance into the basement. that's what he was there for. mr. hubert. he was posted at that spot--where was he standing? mr. daniels. he was standing right in the middle of the entrance there. mr. hubert. now, i'm going to mark on exhibit a position which i am going to call " " and i am putting a circle on it and i'm going to draw a line, and then i'm going to put "first position of daniels," is that about correct? mr. daniels. yes, that's about correct. mr. hubert. now, i'm going to mark a position called " " and i'm going to draw a line, and i'm going to mark it "position of vaughn when daniels was in position number " ", and ask you if that is correct? mr. daniels. that's right. mr. hubert. and as you said, he recognized you and you recognized him? mr. daniels. yes. mr. hubert. and you looked down? mr. daniels. yes. mr. hubert. then what did you do? mr. daniels. i stepped back over to the bannister and---- mr. hubert. you mean back towards the western union? mr. daniels. yes. mr. hubert. did you ever go on the other side of the main street ramp? mr. daniels. no. mr. hubert. towards harwood? mr. daniels. no--at no time--i never did. mr. hubert. when you say you went towards the bannister, were you on the inside of the bannister, that is to say, between the bannister and the ramp, or on the western union side of it? mr. daniels. you mean after i got back to it? mr. hubert. yes. mr. daniels. yes; i got--i went back to it and stood on the western union side and just propped my foot up on the end of it. mr. hubert. you were then facing toward harwood street? mr. daniels. correct. mr. hubert. more or less? mr. daniels. correct. mr. hubert. did you move out of that position at all? mr. daniels. well, yes; during the time i was there i moved several times, but it was all right around in that area there. mr. hubert. but did you ever go to the harwood street side of the main street ramp? mr. daniels. no. mr. hubert. now, i am going to draw it lightly first so we can get it straight--if i draw an area like so--would it be fair to say that you were at all times that you are going to testify to later, within that area, except when you left? mr. daniels. now, what is this here--is this the bannister here? mr. hubert. no; this is the measuring line, this doesn't actually show the bannister. mr. daniels. the bannister come right around in here--i was always right in this area right in here. mr. hubert. so, we will draw a circle like that. mr. daniels. yes. mr. hubert. i am drawing a larger circle in which i am putting the number " ", drawing a line out and saying "area in which daniels was after he left position ' ' and until shooting." right? mr. daniels. right. mr. hubert. now, i understand, of course, that you might have moved around in that area, but substantially that's what it was? mr. daniels. right. mr. hubert. and it was on the western union side of the little concrete or marble ramp that comes out? mr. daniels. yes. mr. hubert. and you are telling me that you never did go on the harwood street side thereafter? mr. daniels. no. mr. hubert. how many people were in the area you were in--this area that we have marked no. ? mr. daniels. well, now, at different times there was as high as four or five--some of them would come by and stop and then go on. mr. hubert. yes. mr. daniels. let me see--about that. mr. hubert. even though there were some people on the other side of the ramp? mr. daniels. yes; there was three or four on the other side. mr. hubert. how long before oswald was shot, and i think you did hear the shot? mr. daniels. yes. mr. hubert. how long before oswald was shot did you get to position no. ? mr. daniels. i would say or minutes. mr. hubert. and then, how long were you in position no. before he was shot, in the area of no. ? mr. daniels. well, let me see--almost the same, because i had just came over here and looked and immediately walked back over here--i would say no time. mr. hubert. in other words, you came from your car to position and took a quick look and went to the area of no. ? mr. daniels. yes. mr. hubert. and you stayed there until the shot was fired, and you think it was about minutes later? mr. daniels. right. mr. hubert. do you remember a car coming up the ramp? mr. daniels. i do. mr. hubert. did you know lt. rio pierce? mr. daniels. yes. mr. hubert. did you recognize him driving the car? mr. daniels. i don't remember whether he was driving or not, there were four officers in there and he was the only one i recognized right off. mr. hubert. there were four in there you say? mr. daniels. two in the front and two in the back. mr. hubert. who were the others? mr. daniels. i didn't really get a good look at them but i knew him, but i got a better look at him than i did the rest of them. mr. hubert. did he see you--did he show any signs of recognition to you? mr. daniels. no. mr. hubert. how long before the shooting did that occur? mr. daniels. let's see, i would say or minutes. now, i have been thoroughly confused on this because down at the police department they tell me one thing and it gets my mind all confused. mr. hubert. well, what we want is not what somebody else told you, but what you, yourself can best remember today. mr. daniels. here's what struck me--when i saw the car come out, i was thinking--i guess they are fixing to bring oswald out now, maybe, because they are coming out to set up a guard, and they pulled on out and i remember watching the car until they got to harwood and main, and then i stopped looking at it and i didn't pay any attention to where it went or anything, and then i kind of looked back down in there from where i was standing near the ramp there. mr. hubert. now, when the car came out, what did vaughn do? mr. daniels. vaughn walked out to the street to hold up traffic, because they were coming out the wrong way. they don't normally come out that way and he was going out to hold up traffic and let them get through. mr. hubert. did he get beyond the sidewalk so that he was actually out in the street? mr. daniels. i think he walked out in the street. mr. hubert. how far into the street? mr. daniels. that would be hard to say but i wasn't paying that much attention, but he walked out into the street--he didn't get beyond the center of the street, but he walked out in there. mr. hubert. in other words, he left position no. and went to a position we will call no. by a circle, and i will just write in there "approximate position of vaughn when rio pierce's car drove out," and when i say "approximate," i am understanding you to say that you are not sure how far into the street he went, you know he did not go beyond the center stripe, but you think he went---- mr. daniels. almost---- mr. hubert. out over the sidewalk and into the street? mr. daniels. yes; because there was some cars parked and he had to get beyond them, you see. mr. hubert. now, while you were watching the car and vaughn, i think you said you watched the car until it went around the corner. did you see anybody go down the ramp? mr. daniels. no, no; i didn't. mr. hubert. would it have been possible for somebody to have gone to your left and down the ramp? mr. daniels. you mean have gotten between me and there? mr. hubert. and the building--yes. mr. daniels. not without me seeing them--i don't hardly think so. mr. hubert. in any case, they would have to climb over the little marble---- mr. daniels. well, i was not exactly against it at that time. when the car came out, i think i stepped back a little bit, you know, and moved out of the way. mr. hubert. well, you said that at one point you were standing on the western union side of that concrete--what do you call it? mr. daniels. i call it a ramp. mr. hubert. concrete ramp--sticking out in the sidewalk? mr. daniels. yes. mr. hubert. and you had your foot on it? mr. daniels. yes; because i was in and out of that position, but when the car came out, i left that and i stepped back out here a little piece from the---- mr. hubert. in other words, you left the area and went more towards the street? mr. daniels. i went towards the street and kind of back down the sidewalk a little piece. mr. hubert. you went more towards the main street curb and back in the direction of the western union? mr. daniels. right. mr. hubert. in any case, you didn't see anybody go to your left? mr. daniels. no. mr. hubert. nor did you see anybody go down the ramp? mr. daniels. no. mr. hubert. then, after vaughn had done this and the car had gone around, what did vaughn do? mr. daniels. he came back and took his position up again. mr. hubert. so that it is fair to say then that the position we have marked on the map as position was also the position of vaughn after the rio pierce automobile had gone through? mr. daniels. right. mr. hubert. tell us what happened after that? mr. daniels. let's see, there is something else that i have been thoroughly confused on--i have never been able to picture in my mind just how it happened--the guy that i saw go into the basement--i'm not sure it was before or after the car came out. i'm not sure--i have run that in my mind a thousand times, but i just can't place one before the other. mr. hubert. well, in any case, you saw a man go down in the basement? mr. daniels. yes. mr. hubert. and at the time you saw him go down in the basement, where was vaughn? mr. daniels. in position . mr. hubert. in position , that is to say, squarely in the middle of the ramp? mr. daniels. yes. mr. hubert. did vaughn look at him? mr. daniels. i think he did. mr. hubert. did vaughn try to stop him? mr. daniels. no. mr. hubert. he went right on through? mr. daniels. yes. mr. hubert. do you know how long that was before the shot was fired? mr. daniels. or minutes, i guess. mr. hubert. but what you say is confusing you is as to whether or not that was after the rio pierce car came out? mr. daniels. i'm not sure--i can't place one before the other--if i had to guess at it, i would say it was before. mr. hubert. in other words, you think now that you saw the man go down past vaughn before the rio pierce car came? mr. daniels. right. mr. hubert. is that correct? mr. daniels. that's what i'm thinking. mr. hubert. that's your best recollection today? mr. daniels. yes. mr. hubert. now, when the rio pierce car did drive out and vaughn left his position at no. , didn't you as a matter of fact undertake to watch that position which was left unguarded? mr. daniels. i did notice it to see if anybody went down in it so i could tell him about it. mr. hubert. and nobody did? mr. daniels. no. mr. hubert. and that does not refresh your memory as to whether or not the man you saw go down, went down before or after the pierce car came out? mr. daniels. let me see--i still think it was before. mr. hubert. do you know that now? mr. daniels. no; i can't be positive--i don't know it. mr. hubert. isn't it a fact that you thought at one time he was the man you had seen somehow when you were on the police force? mr. daniels. well, yes; and here's what--when the guy walked down in there and vaughn seemed to look at him, the impression i got was that vaughn knew him and maybe he had let him out and still, i wondered too why he let him go down in there, because he wasn't letting anybody else go down in there. he looked like one of the news reporters or something, at least that's what i took him to be after vaughn let him go on down. i had seen him before and i thought, well, maybe he's one of the news reporters down there at the city hall. mr. hubert. let me ask you to do this, mr. daniels, i have here three documents. the first one purports to be a copy of an interview with the state police, i think, or the city police, in the course of which you executed an affidavit on november , . i'm going to mark that for purpose of identification as follows: "dallas, tex., april , , exhibit no. , deposition of n. j. daniels," and i am signing my name below it. there are two pages. i am marking the second page with my initials in the lower right-hand corner. then there's another document which purports to be a report of an interview with the fbi agents neil quigley and john dallman, which interview occurred on december , . that document has four pages. i am marking in the right hand margin on the first page, the following: "dallas, tex., april , , exhibit no. , deposition of n. j. daniels." i am writing my name below that and marking the second and third and fourth pages of that with my initials in the lower right-hand corner, and finally, there is another document which is an fbi report of an interview with bramblett [spelling] b-r-a-m-b-l-e-t-t and dallman, taken of you on december , , and i am marking that: "dallas, tex., april , , this is exhibit , deposition of n. j. daniels." i am marking my name on it and since the document consists of three pages, i am placing my initials in the lower right-hand corner of the second and third pages. now, mr. daniels, i would like you to read these three documents with this in mind, that after you have had a chance to read them calmly and quietly, take all the time you want, i would like you to look at them and be able to comment upon them. for instance, i am going to ask you if they are correct, or what is wrong about them, and i want to try to reconcile them, and see if we can get at what are really the facts as you recollect the facts today. we are not interested in any positions of mind or concepts that you don't really have, but that other people might have driven you to, with good motive or not, what we want now is forgetting about whatever anybody else told you, what your recollection is right now--today, without reference to anything else, if you can possibly do it. keep that in mind--forget about suggestions made to you in all good faith by other people, and just cut that out of your mind and let's just do that--that scene as you saw it, and these words today. mr. daniels. all right. mr. hubert. now, i am going to give you some time to look at it. mr. daniels. [examining instruments referred to.] mr. hubert. now, mr. daniels, you have had an opportunity to read the exhibits that i have marked exhibits nos. , , and . now, have you any comment to make with respect to the three exhibits and the statements made by you in them? mr. daniels. they said three people was in the car--it seems like i saw four--all of them had on these white supervisor caps, leather top hats that the supervisors wear down there and it just seemed like i saw four. mr. hubert. all right, what you are saying in effect now is that the people who reported in these exhibits that you said you saw three were wrong, or that you were wrong in telling them three, because your present recollection is that there were four? mr. daniels. i think it was four. mr. hubert. are there any other corrections that you wish to make? mr. daniels. let's see. i don't remember. mr. hubert. any others? mr. daniels. i don't remember--corrections. mr. hubert. well, it is my duty to call your attention to exhibit , which is the affidavit that you made on november . mr. daniels. november ? what i said? mr. hubert. and in exhibit , which is the report of an interview by the agents of the fbi on december , you seem to quite clearly state that the man you saw walk down the ramp past vaughn, did so after the car had passed? mr. daniels. well, i said i think i have changed my mind now--i believe it was after the car had gone out when i saw him. mr. hubert. let me get it straight--what is your present impression now? mr. daniels. that's it--the way i fix it in my mind--the way i arrive at that conclusion is that when the shot rang out, my first thought was the guy that just walked down in there did that, so timing that way it would have to be after that car came out, because that car had time to go quite a ways, i think. mr. hubert. what you are saying then is that, the statements that are contained in exhibits and you now believe to be correct? mr. daniels. right. mr. hubert. and the statement you made in your deposition earlier today that you could not be sure whether that man went in before or after was incorrect? i think you even went further, if my memory serves me right, and said that your best recollection was that the man had gone down past vaughn before the car came out, isn't that what you said earlier in your deposition? mr. daniels. yes; until i refreshed myself on it and when i read that i got a better picture in my mind. mr. hubert. so that now your testimony is that you think that the man you saw go by--past vaughn, did so after the car had gone out, that is to say, after vaughn had left his position at ( ), gone out into the street to the approximate position of ( ) and come back again to his position at ( )? mr. daniels. right. mr. hubert. and then it was at that time or shortly thereafter that the man went straight by vaughn? mr. daniels. yes. mr. hubert. but that is your present best recollection? mr. daniels. right. mr. hubert. now, you believe that the thing that has made you change your mind is that when you read these statements--it refreshes your memory? mr. daniels. right. mr. hubert. are you quite sure it refreshes your memory or, are you worried about contradicting yourself? mr. daniels. no; i'm not worried about contradicting myself, i'm just trying to be sure and tell the truth. mr. hubert. right--i want to assure you that it doesn't matter to us whether you contradict yourself or not. mr. daniels. right. mr. hubert. there is no suggestion made to you here that if you made a mistake before that any kind of penalty or punishment or prosecution will follow, because that isn't so, unless you made a wilful misstatement, but i'm not going into that now. what i want to know now is what really happened. now, mr. daniels, that's why i asked you before to try to put everything out of your mind. mr. daniels. that's the trouble with this--it has been out of my mind and i am trying to get it back in there. mr. hubert. you feel now, considering all the statements you made originally are the truthful ones? mr. daniels. right. mr. hubert. are there any other corrections or additions or deletions that you would like to make as to the exhibits that have been identified as exhibits as numbers , , and ? mr. daniels. i can't think of any. mr. hubert. you think it can be fairly said that anyone who would read the three exhibits , , and and who would read the transcript of your deposition at a later time and who would have the advantage of being able to follow your deposition on this chart that has been marked as daniel's exhibit , that such a person reading all those documents would have all of the truth, so far as you know it? mr. daniels. right. mr. hubert. and we would have all that you do know? mr. daniels. that's absolutely right--that's right, i believe so. mr. hubert. all right, is there anything else, have you anything else to say? mr. daniels. no; i can't think of anything else. mr. hubert. all right, thank you very much. i am glad you came by. mr. daniels. all right, thank you. testimony of william j. harrison the testimony of william j. harrison was taken at : p.m., on march , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. burt w. griffin, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. william j. harrison was accompanied by his counsel, ted p. macmaster. mr. griffin. i was looking through here to see if i could get you a copy of our rules. let me state for the record. correct me if i get the names wrong. we have here officer w. j. harrison of the dallas police department and mr. macmaster. mr. macmaster. ted p. macmaster [spelling] m-a-c-m-a-s-t-e-r, assistant city attorney of the city of dallas. mr. griffin. i wanted to provide for you, before we even get into the formal part of it a copy of the rules, and i think this is a complete copy, mr. macmaster, and, if you like, let me hand them to you. mr. macmaster. that is fine. thank you. mr. griffin. and let me state, talk a little bit about this, and then maybe, if you feel that you would like to stop and take a look at it a little longer, i would be happy to do that. i will state for the record that my name is burt griffin and i am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel's office of the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy, and this commission has been set up pursuant to an executive order by president johnson issued november , , and also pursuant to a joint resolution of congress no. . pursuant to this executive order and these resolutions, there have been a set of rules and a procedure prescribed by the commission, and i believe, mr. macmaster, that what i have just handed you is a copy, and i believe a complete copy, of the rules, but if you would like for me to check and make sure that is everything, i will check with one of my colleagues. would---- mr. macmaster. yes; i would appreciate that. mr. griffin. would you like me to? mr. macmaster. yes. mr. griffin. i will have to take it. (recess.) mr. griffin. for the record, i have checked with my colleague, mr. leon hubert, and he confirms my statement to you that that is a complete copy of the rules of the commission. mr. macmaster. i would like to state for the record, officer william j. harrison, a member of the police department of the city of dallas, tex., is making a voluntary appearance here today and is here for the purpose of voluntarily assisting, in every way possible, in this investigation. mr. griffin. i certainly appreciate that, and let me take some time here to explain to you what is involved here. this commission was set up under this resolution and this executive order, which i have given you a copy of, for the purpose of investigating, evaluating, reporting back to president johnson upon the facts surrounding the assassination of the president and the killing of lee harvey oswald. now, we have asked mr. harrison to come here today to talk with him in particular about the facts that are attendant to the killing of oswald. we don't want to preclude any information that you may have that falls anywhere within the scope of the commission, so if there is anything, why i would like you on your own to bring it up and we want very much to hear it. let me go back and explain where we are procedurally. officer harrison is appearing here by virtue of a letter, which is sent by the general counsel of the commission to chief curry, and the general counsel, under these resolutions, has the right to determine who shall be deposed and also has the authority to authorize individual members of his staff to take individual depositions, and i have been authorized, pursuant to that letter to mr. curry, to take mr. harrison's deposition. now, the witness is entitled to days' written notice before he testifies before the commission, and some of the witnesses have asked for it, others of them haven't. mr. macmaster. you don't have any reason for that? mr. harrison. no. mr. macmaster. he wants to waive that -day notice. mr. harrison. just waive it. mr. griffin. and, also, they have a right to counsel before the commission. many of the witnesses have come before the commission, and mr. harrison is here with mr. macmaster, who is his attorney. do you have any questions you want to ask me before i swear the witness in? mr. macmaster. no; not that i know of at this point. mr. griffin. mr. harrison, do you have any questions that you would like to ask me? mr. harrison. well, i would like to know if i understand. you have the reports that we made to the fbi? mr. griffin. yes. mr. harrison. and also the ones that we made to our chief? mr. griffin. yes, we do. mr. harrison. do we get to read those? mr. griffin. would you like to see a copy of them? mr. harrison. yes; i haven't seen them. mr. macmaster. you want them to refresh your memory? mr. griffin. all right. let me get it out of here. would you like to take time and go out? mr. macmaster. do you want to take a little time? mr. griffin. why don't you look it over? you can step out of the room. maybe i can find another office for you, too. (recess.) mr. griffin. i might ask you again if you have any other questions that i can answer before i swear you in? mr. harrison. i don't know of anything. this is off of the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. griffin. you want to raise your right hand. do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? mr. harrison. i do. mr. griffin. will you state your name, please? mr. harrison. william j. harrison. mr. griffin. when were you born, mr. harrison? mr. harrison. august , . mr. griffin. where do you live now? mr. harrison. at donnybrook. mr. griffin. is that in dallas? mr. harrison. yes, dallas. mr. griffin. are you employed with the dallas police department. mr. harrison. yes, i am. mr. griffin. how long have you been with the dallas department? mr. harrison. past years. mr. griffin. now, what particular bureau or subdivision are you attached to at present? mr. harrison. i am a patrolman assigned to the juvenile bureau of the cid. mr. griffin. were you working in that capacity or were you a member of the department in that capacity on november , , and ? mr. harrison. yes. mr. griffin. now, i am going to ask you some questions generally about events, things have to do with events before the th, and i am not going to go into as much detail as the events of the th, but i do want to ask you where you were at the time that you heard that the president was shot. mr. harrison. where i was at the time that i heard that the president was shot? mr. griffin. yes. mr. harrison. i was on duty at the market hall. i was standing at the--i guess it would be the west end of the president's table. mr. griffin. that is the trade mart? mr. harrison. yes. mr. griffin. dallas trade mart? mr. harrison. yes, sir; market. mr. griffin. how long did you remain there after you heard that the president was shot? mr. harrison. well, it was approximately an hour. mr. griffin. and then where did you go? mr. harrison. come back to the city hall. mr. griffin. the police department building or the city hall portion of it? mr. harrison. well, to the juvenile bureau. mr. griffin. and did you go up to the juvenile bureau? mr. harrison. yes. mr. griffin. now, what did you do when you got back to the juvenile bureau? mr. harrison. well, i don't recall. stayed around the office there until time to go home. mr. griffin. what time would you estimate that you got back to the police department? mr. harrison. it was around : or . mr. griffin. and what time did you go off duty that day? mr. harrison. four. mr. griffin. now, did you have occasion to go out of the building between the time that you returned and the time that you went off duty? mr. harrison. i don't recall. i don't think i ever went out of the building. mr. griffin. were you working on any particular cases that you recall? mr. harrison. no, no; i don't. mr. griffin. now, during the period that you were there prior to o'clock, did you see anybody on the third floor or elsewhere in the building who you knew was not a police officer or a member of the press or somebody who was up on some sort of official business with the police department, did you recognize anybody that you knew? mr. harrison. no, no. mr. griffin. did you see jack ruby there at anytime prior to o'clock friday afternoon? mr. harrison. no, sir. mr. griffin. you do recognize ruby by sight, do you not? mr. harrison. yes. mr. griffin. do you know jack personally? mr. harrison. i knew him as a businessman as well by sight, and i have known him for years, i guess, as a businessman. mr. griffin. how did you happen to meet jack? mr. harrison. well, i used to go into his place. i was a motorcycle officer, and we would go into these different places just checking, and he was running the silver spur, i think was the name of it. mr. griffin. what bureau were you assigned to at that time? mr. harrison. i was in the traffic bureau. mr. griffin. is that motorcycle patrol? mr. harrison. yes; motorcycle patrol. mr. griffin. was that downtown only? mr. harrison. no. we rode all over the city. mr. griffin. what particular business did you have in there? mr. harrison. oh, we went in, we went into several places, maybe to get a cold drink, checking maybe to see if there was some drunks in there, just regular, routine checks more or less. mr. griffin. now, did you ever see him on a social basis? mr. harrison. no. mr. griffin. did you ever see him in any capacity other than as a police officer? mr. harrison. no. mr. griffin. have you in the last years had any part-time jobs while you were with the police department? mr. harrison. any part-time jobs while i--i didn't understand that. mr. griffin. yes; while you were a member of the police department, did you have any part-time jobs? mr. harrison. yes; i have had part-time jobs. mr. griffin. in connection with any of this part-time work, have you ever worked with jack ruby? mr. harrison. no. mr. griffin. what kind of part-time jobs have you had? mr. harrison. around parade of homes, working traffic around these parades of home, and on special occasions, like where they have big traffic problems, and in, well, you might say, jewelry stores, department stores, working in both. mr. griffin. you don't have any special trade like carpenter, bricklayer or anything like that? mr. harrison. no. mr. griffin. now, what did you do when you left the police department at o'clock on friday? mr. harrison. i drove home, went home. mr. griffin. and where were you the remainder of the evening? mr. harrison. well, i don't recall at all, but i believe i was at my home. i don't think i had left the house. mr. griffin. is there something that makes you think you might have been some place else? mr. harrison. no. i just don't remember back that--if i went anywhere or not. mr. griffin. now, what shift did you work on saturday? mr. harrison. to . mr. griffin. and did you report for duty at the juvenile---- mr. harrison. bureau. mr. griffin. were you in the building all day on saturday? mr. harrison. on a saturday? mr. griffin. yes. mr. harrison. no, sir. mr. griffin. do you recall where you worked out of the building on saturday? mr. harrison. no; i don't recall. it was just a normal, routine day, as far as our work was concerned, handling the juvenile prisoners and checking those beeves that we had assigned to us. mr. griffin. prior to the time that you went on duty on saturday, did you receive any telephone calls or other communications from jack ruby or anybody who was an associate of jack ruby? mr. harrison. no. mr. griffin. you left the police department about p.m. on saturday? mr. harrison. on saturday? mr. griffin. yes, sir. mr. harrison. yes, sir. no; i beg your pardon. yes; it was about o'clock on saturday afternoon. mr. griffin. now, at the time that you left the police department, had you heard anything about the movement of lee oswald, proposed movement of lee oswald? mr. harrison. no, no; i hadn't. mr. griffin. now, what did you do saturday after you left work? mr. harrison. i went home. mr. griffin. and did you spend saturday night at home? mr. harrison. spend saturday night at home; yes, sir. mr. griffin. what time did you report for work on sunday? mr. harrison. o'clock. mr. griffin. now, anytime on saturday, did you see jack ruby? mr. harrison. no, sir. mr. griffin. anywhere? mr. harrison. no, sir. mr. griffin. did you see any of his friends or associates anyplace? mr. harrison. i don't know any of his friends or associates. mr. griffin. are you acquainted with a fellow by the name of george senator? mr. harrison. no, sir. mr. griffin. now, during the last year, the year prior to the time that the president was shot, how often did you have occasion to visit ruby's place? mr. harrison. i believe that i went in his place one time within the last year. mr. griffin. when was that? mr. harrison. i don't--i don't recall. a group of us. i say a group of us. occasionally, we will hear about some juvenile being in a place like that, and occasionally we will check to see if there are any down there, and, if i recall, i believe officer cutchshaw and myself went down to the carousel club one time. mr. griffin. in the course of your duties, did you ever find that jack ruby provided any useful information to the police department? mr. harrison. no, sir. mr. griffin. did you or any of the officers that you know in the police department attempt ever to obtain information out of jack ruby with respect to your duties? mr. harrison. well, i didn't. i don't know if any of the other officers did or not. mr. griffin. there wasn't ever any occasion when you tried to get any assistance or information from him? mr. harrison. no. mr. griffin. now, when you arrived for work on saturday--sunday, rather--you say you report at o'clock? mr. harrison. yes. mr. griffin. is that the normal reporting time in your bureau? mr. harrison. yes. mr. griffin. do you remember where you parked your car? mr. harrison. i parked it over by the garage on young street, and actually, well, it was on a parking lot there next to the garage. mr. griffin. young and---- mr. harrison. yes. mr. griffin. and what intersection? mr. harrison. young and pearl expressway. mr. griffin. did you come into the building with any of your fellow officers? mr. harrison. no. mr. griffin. do you remember what entrance you came into the building through? mr. harrison. i drove into the basement. mr. griffin. i am talking about the police department building. mr. harrison. i drove into the basement of the city hall there. mr. griffin. oh, i thought you parked your car there. mr. harrison. i did. i parked my personal car on the parking lot across from the police garage on young and pearl. mr. griffin. i see. mr. harrison. i picked up a city car at the garage, drove to the basement of the city hall, where i parked it. mr. griffin. i see. what car number was it? mr. harrison. i don't recall. don't have any idea. mr. griffin. is there any sort of record that is maintained on what cars you drive? mr. harrison. well, we fill out a slip on each car we drive every day. mr. griffin. and did you fill out a slip on that car? mr. harrison. yes, sir. mr. griffin. now, where do you get the keys to one of those cars that is over there? mr. harrison. they are left in the car, they are in the cars. mr. griffin. and are they kept in a locked garage, is that it? mr. harrison. no; it is a two-story parking affair, enclosed in a fence up to, you know---- mr. griffin. and there is a guard on the fence? mr. harrison. no; there is no guard. mr. griffin. now, was there any particular reason for taking that car that day? mr. harrison. well, we always park our personal car and pick up our city car and drive over close to the city hall there. mr. griffin. i see. and it is part of your responsibility, you ordinarily pick up a car? mr. harrison. yes. mr. griffin. do you have a particular car assigned to you? mr. harrison. no, no. we have a pool system. mr. griffin. did you drive back with anybody to the police department? mr. harrison. no; i was alone that day. mr. griffin. i take it that you parked the car in the garage of the municipal building and walked by the jail office? mr. harrison. to the elevator. mr. griffin. yes. when you arrived, were there any newspaper people down in the basement? mr. harrison. in the basement? mr. griffin. yes, sir. mr. harrison. no, sir; not that i recall. mr. griffin. do you recall whether there were any tv cameras set up when you arrived that day in the basement? mr. harrison. no, sir; i don't. mr. griffin. when you came in, i take it that you came in down the main street ramp? mr. harrison. yes. mr. griffin. was there a guard on the main street ramp at the time that you came? mr. harrison. not at that time. mr. griffin. what did you do when you got up to the third floor? is that right? mr. harrison. i went to the juvenile bureau. mr. griffin. did you go to the locker room first? mr. harrison. no. mr. griffin. you went right up to the juvenile bureau? mr. harrison. yes. mr. griffin. on the third floor? mr. harrison. yes. mr. griffin. do you recall who was there in the juvenile bureau when you got in? mr. harrison. no. goolsby was working the desk and mrs. mcline was there and miller and lowery. i believe cutchshaw. mr. griffin. anybody else that you recall? mr. harrison. no. mr. griffin. was captain martin there? mr. harrison. i don't recall seeing him when i first come in. mr. griffin. when you arrived, what did you do as soon as you arrived up there in the juvenile bureau? mr. harrison. we checked to see what we had assigned to us. they assign the beeves of a morning when we first come in and put a copy of it in our drawer, and we always check the first thing to see if we have any messages or if there has been anything assigned to us to work on. mr. griffin. and did you have anything assigned to you at that time to work on? mr. harrison. i don't recall. mr. griffin. do you recall what you did after you checked your assignments? mr. harrison. well, miller and i went to eat breakfast. i don't know the exact time. mr. griffin. how long would you estimate that was after you arrived? mr. harrison. i don't have any idea. approximately or minutes. mr. griffin. now, did you talk with anybody concerning what was going on in the homicide office or what was going on in connection with lee oswald when you came in? mr. harrison. i beg your pardon. mr. griffin. when you come into the juvenile bureau, did you talk to any of the people in connection with what was happening with lee oswald? mr. harrison. not that i recall. i may have asked if he was still up there. i don't recall. mr. griffin. at the time that--excuse me. mr. macmaster, this is mr. hubert of our office. mr. macmaster is assistant city attorney. this is mr. harrison, mr. hubert. mr. harrison. hello. glad to see you, sir. mr. griffin. at the time that you arrived in the building, had you heard anything in connection with the movement of lee harvey oswald to the county jail? mr. harrison. no; i hadn't. mr. griffin. had you heard anything about whether he was going to be moved at all that day? mr. harrison. well, the--they were talking, the pressmen were talking about it out in the hall as we come by. mr. griffin. what did you hear the press people say? mr. harrison. they said he would be moved sometime that morning, and i couldn't tell you who the pressmen were or anything. mr. griffin. did you talk with officer miller about this when you got in? mr. harrison. no. mr. griffin. did you talk with any of the officers about this? mr. harrison. when captain martin came in, i believe we had gone to get breakfast, and when we got back, they told us to stay around the bureau there. mr. griffin. i see. now, when you went out to get breakfast, where did you have breakfast? mr. harrison. at the deluxe diner there at the block of commerce. mr. griffin. whose suggestion was it to go out for breakfast? mr. harrison. i don't know. mine or miller's one. i don't remember. mr. griffin. did you ask anybody else to go with you? mr. harrison. i don't recall. mr. griffin. it was just you and miller that went to the deluxe diner? mr. harrison. yes. mr. griffin. did you see anybody at the deluxe diner that you knew? mr. harrison. no. mr. griffin. do you know the people who operate the diner or the waitresses? mr. harrison. no. i know some of them that work over there, but i don't recall who was working that day. mr. griffin. and do you visit there often enough so that they know you? mr. harrison. some of the employees do. mr. griffin. now, before you left the juvenile bureau, who did you talk with before going? you didn't ask anybody to come with you. did you tell anybody that you were going out? mr. harrison. we told the deskman, goolsby. mr. griffin. goolsby? mr. harrison. we were going over to get a cup of coffee. mr. griffin. i see. now, how long did you remain at the deluxe diner? mr. harrison. i would say around minutes. mr. griffin. did anything happen over there? mr. harrison. no. mr. griffin. did you talk about the movement of lee oswald at all? mr. harrison. no. we didn't know anything about it then. mr. griffin. do you recall what you talked about over there? mr. harrison. i sure don't. mr. griffin. speculation about whether they were going to get a story out of him, a confession, or anything like that? mr. harrison. i don't recall. mr. griffin. now, how did you happen to decide to leave the diner? mr. harrison. well, we were through eating and went back over to the city hall there to the bureau. mr. griffin. do you remember if you talked with anybody while you were over at the deluxe diner? mr. harrison. i don't recall. mr. griffin. do you recall whether you talked with any--had any telephone calls when you were there? mr. harrison. i believe i did. mr. griffin. okay. mr. harrison. i believe i did have a phone call. mr. griffin. all right. what do you remember about the phone call? mr. harrison. i believe it was goolsby. he called us and told us not to leave the city hall, that was the captain's order, captain martin's order. he told us to come on back to the bureau when we got through eating. mr. griffin. uh-huh. mr. harrison. i recall that. mr. griffin. all right. now, when you got back to the bureau, did you report back in to goolsby? mr. harrison. well, he saw us come in. we didn't have to. mr. griffin. did you see captain martin when you got back? mr. harrison. i believe he was there when we got back in. mr. griffin. did you talk to anybody when you got back about the proposed movement of oswald? mr. harrison. no. of course, it may have been discussed there as to what time it would be. i don't recall who was talking or what was said, but i know we were told to stand by the bureau there by captain martin. mr. griffin. now, when did martin tell you this? mr. harrison. well, actually, on this phone call goolsby made over there, he told us that the captain had told us to stand by there in the bureau. mr. griffin. uh-huh. mr. harrison. when we got back up there. mr. griffin. now, did martin then tell you the same thing when you got up? mr. harrison. i don't recall whether he did or not. mr. griffin. now, how long was it between the time that you got this call from goolsby and you actually went down to the basement in connection with the movement of lee oswald? mr. harrison. i would say about hours. mr. griffin. when you came back from the diner, how did you come back into the building? mr. harrison. came across to harwood street and down to the harwood street entrance to the city hall. mr. griffin. and when you went out, did you go out that way or did you go out by the commerce street entrance? mr. harrison. went that way. mr. griffin. now, did you see anybody around the police building at that time whom you recognized that wasn't either a police officer or a newspaperman? mr. harrison. yes, sir; when we came back, there was a man by the name of johnny miller, who owns a trailer house sales on west davis. it is right across from sivils parking lot there. it is a trailer sales company. he was standing in the door of this television company truck talking, and he turned around and shook hands with me and spoke to me, and i went on in the building. mr. griffin. do you remember what he said to you? mr. harrison. he just spoke to me and shook hands with me said he was glad to see me, and that is the extent of it. mr. griffin. does miller know ruby, to your knowledge? mr. harrison. i don't know. i don't know that, whether he knows him or not. mr. griffin. anything that would lead you to think that he might? mr. harrison. no; i have known miller just about the same length of time that i have known ruby, but i don't know whether he even knew ruby or not. mr. griffin. is miller a close, personal friend of yours? mr. harrison. no, no; just an acquaintance. oh, i have stopped out there at his place and sat there and talked to him and have gone and had coffee with him, but just an acquaintance, not a personal friend. mr. griffin. is this a tv sales and repair shop that he runs? mr. harrison. no; a house trailer. mr. griffin. i am sorry. house trailer. house trailer. okay. now, do you remember what you did in those roughly hours between the time you got back up to the juvenile bureau and the time that you went down to the basement? mr. harrison. no, sir; i don't recall, except sitting up there answering the phone and just checking on beeves that i had had assigned to me. mr. griffin. were you all keeping your eye out for when oswald would be moved? mr. harrison. well, we knew that we would be told, that someone would come and get us. mr. griffin. did you have any idea of what would be the occasion for moving oswald, what would be done before oswald would be moved? mr. harrison. no; i didn't. mr. griffin. were you aware that the homicide people were questioning oswald at that time? mr. harrison. we didn't know they were. we assumed that they were. mr. griffin. were there reporters running in and out of the office? mr. harrison. yes, sir. mr. griffin. were they talking about the events that were going on? mr. harrison. they were mostly using the phone. they weren't talking to us. they were mostly calling their home office. mr. griffin. they were using the phone in your office? mr. harrison. yes. mr. griffin. you were able to hear what they were saying over the telephone? mr. harrison. i didn't pay any attention to what they were saying. there were three of us in there that morning. all we told them was to leave us three lines open because we were pretty busy ourselves. mr. griffin. what was the next thing you recall in connection with the movement of lee oswald? mr. harrison. about, i would say, or or minutes to . i went down to the subbasement to get me some cigars, and as i come back up out of the subbasement, well, then the officers out of our bureau were going across from the elevator to the--to there in front of the jail office. mr. griffin. now, there are two basements, as i understand it, in the police and courts building. one is the basement level that the garage is on and the jail office and the records room? mr. harrison. yes. mr. griffin. and then there is a subbasement? mr. harrison. locker room. mr. griffin. locker room down below that. now, how did you get down from the third floor into the subbasement? does the elevator go all of the way down? mr. harrison. no, no; it stops at the floor where the jail office is. mr. griffin. all right. when you get out of the jail office, where do you have to go? mr. harrison. well, actually to the south end. mr. griffin. you walk down to the hallway and then you open a door? mr. harrison. no; you go down a stairway. mr. griffin. go down a stairway? mr. harrison. into the subbasement. mr. griffin. now, there is, is there not, a doorway, as you walk from commerce street down the steps to go to the door that entered into the building and through the hallway that you had walked down? do you follow me? mr. harrison. no, no; i don't. mr. griffin. let's suppose that you walked from the record room to the subbasement by way of the hallway that leads out towards commerce street. mr. harrison. yes. mr. griffin. now, that hallway has a door that goes out of the building, does it not? mr. harrison. right. mr. griffin. and when you open that door and go out of the building, there are two other doors, right? mr. harrison. no, no. mr. griffin. well, isn't there a door on your--on your left as you face commerce street, isn't there a door on your left that goes into the engine room? mr. harrison. actually, i have never--i believe there is a door there. it is underneath where the stairway goes up. mr. griffin. now, there is a door straight ahead where the stairway goes up? in other words, as you walk out of the door from the building to leave the building and you step out of there, there is another door right in front of you right under this stairs---- mr. harrison. yes. mr. griffin. isn't there? mr. harrison. yes. mr. griffin. now, that door leads down to the subbasement, doesn't it? mr. harrison. well, i have never been down that way. i don't know. mr. griffin. all right. from the assembly room, in the assembly room, where is this cigar dispensing machine? mr. harrison. they are not in the assembly room. mr. griffin. not in the assembly room, in the locker room. mr. harrison. in the locker room. mr. griffin. where is it located? mr. harrison. i don't know how to describe it to you. the machine is about, i guess, foot from the door--from the stairway. mr. griffin. at the far south end? mr. harrison. no; it is kind of west of the stairway. mr. griffin. west of the stairway, but it is on the south side of the room, it is on the side closest to commerce street? mr. harrison. no; that is where all of the locker rooms are, lockers are. mr. griffin. yes, sir. mr. harrison. now, there is a door that separates the locker room from the area where the cold drinks and where the---- mr. griffin. all right. mr. harrison. where the cold drinks and the cigar machine and the cigarette machines are, there is a door that separates that. mr. griffin. we are all talking about the same thing here. i am not sure that mr. macmaster knows what we are talking about here. would you draw main street or draw commerce street up on one end, which is convenient to you, and draw harwood, and why don't you label them, write "main," "commerce," and "harwood" in the appropriate spots? all right. where is the doorway that you entered the locker room by, where would that be? mr. harrison. well, now, this being the stair down. mr. griffin. yes. mr. harrison. there is no door here. mr. griffin. yes, sir. mr. harrison. there is a wall approximately in this position and there is a double door here. mr. griffin. all right. mr. harrison. all right. there is a big post here. it has a telephone on it. mr. griffin. yes. mr. harrison. cigar machine sits right here beside of this post. mr. griffin. all right. mr. harrison. and the dr. pepper and coke machines are all up and down this right side. mr. griffin. all right. what is in this area to the south of the doorway? mr. harrison. this? mr. griffin. yes. mr. harrison. lockers. mr. griffin. would you draw that in there, write that in there? write "locker room" or something. did you have a locker in there? mr. harrison. yes. mr. griffin. where was your locker located, approximately? mr. harrison. down here, however it hadn't been used in over - / or years. mr. griffin. did you see anybody down here when you went down there to get the cigars? mr. harrison. there was no one down there when i went down there. mr. griffin. did you have any occasion to go into the locker room? mr. harrison. no. mr. griffin. now, what did you do after you got the cigars? mr. harrison. went back upstairs. mr. griffin. and did you see anybody on the way up or down whom you recognized as not being a newspaperman or a police officer. mr. harrison. well, at that time, there was no one in that immediate area. the officers were going across from the elevator to the jail office, the officers out of the juvenile bureau. mr. griffin. so when you came up, you found the officers had left? mr. harrison. no. mr. griffin. i mean had left the juvenile bureau, right? mr. harrison. well, they were leaving the elevator coming across. mr. griffin. had you met them in the basement? mr. harrison. met them in the basement, yes. mr. griffin. and who did you see there at that time? mr. harrison. well, there was miller, lowery and cutchshaw, goolsby, and i believe that was all out of our bureau. mr. griffin. and what did you do when you saw them? mr. harrison. one of them told me to come on. mr. griffin. do you remember which one that was? mr. harrison. i don't recall who it was. mr. griffin. and where did you go with them? mr. harrison. we stood in front of the jail office. mr. griffin. and what happened as you waited around there? mr. harrison. well, we were waiting around to get--find out where they were going to put us. mr. griffin. did you finally get some instructions from somebody? mr. harrison. i believe it was captain jones that come in and told us that--to come on out into the area there in the driveway, and he told us that he wanted all of the newsmen on the east side of the drive and that he wanted nothing but officers over in this corridor here and where the--well, on the west wall, in other words. mr. griffin. now, let's go off of the record here. i want to find out. (discussion off the record.) mr. griffin. i am going to mark this diagram that you have drawn here harrison exhibit , and i am going to ask you, officer harrison, if you will just put in here "coke machine" or whatever these things are, "cigar machine." mr. harrison. this is a post here. mr. griffin. a post. a support post. all right. why don't you mark that post, then? and then mark the area where the--okay. now, and that is "door." okay. now, would you sign that any place where you can get your signature and then date it? (recess.) mr. griffin. we were at the point where you had come into the basement area and seen the people coming down from the juvenile bureau. before you went down there, had you left word that you would be down in the locker room? mr. harrison. yes; i told goolsby that i was going down and get me some cigars. mr. griffin. did there come a time when you were down in the basement that somebody gave you some instructions as to what was to be done? mr. harrison. captain jones, i believe it was, had come out and told us to go out into the ramp area, the garage, and to set--to put these photographers and newspeople on the east side of the driveway. mr. griffin. will you take this map, diagram or chart (harrison exhibit ) which is--actually is a reduction of a chart that the dallas police department made for us some time ago and purports to represent the basement area? you can see the jail office here? mr. harrison. uh-huh. mr. griffin. and you can see commerce street over here and main street here and the garage area here and the main street ramp going down and the commerce street ramp going up, and this shows a solid wall along commerce street here. actually, this is the basement wall. the basement extends out under the sidewalk, but if you were looking at this at ground level, you would see this broken line is the wall of the building. now, directing your attention to the part that shows the exit from the jail office and the ramps and the entrance into the garage, can you mark on there what captain jones--how captain jones indicated that the newspeople were to be displaced by the officers? mr. harrison. he wanted them across along here on this side. mr. griffin. do you want to put a series of "x's" or something along there to show? mr. harrison. you want to put "news"? mr. griffin. yes; you might put some mark on there. this would be news media, newspeople, also? mr. harrison. yes. mr. griffin. why don't you mark that "news," also? now, were there to be any newspaper people from the northern side of the entrance to the garage on up toward the main street ramp? mr. harrison. there were some. mr. griffin. but what instructions did he give in that regard? mr. harrison. he didn't. he just stated that he wanted them on the east side of the ramp. mr. griffin. now, did he say anything with respect to whether he wanted them on the east side or the west side of the railing? mr. harrison. no; he didn't specify that. mr. griffin. was it your understanding that there were to be no news media in this area other than the tv people? mr. harrison. in this area right here. mr. griffin. what about in the area to the north of where you have placed the "x's"? was it your understanding that---- mr. harrison. there were floodlights standing here. mr. griffin. where you are placing circles on the map. now, did he give--go ahead. mr. harrison. there were cameras here. mr. griffin. now, did he give instructions as to where the police officers were to stand? mr. harrison. no. mr. griffin. did he give any instructions with respect to forming any lines of police officers or anything like that? mr. harrison. i didn't hear it. mr. griffin. now, how long was this before lee oswald was brought down that these instructions were given? mr. harrison. this was approximately, oh, maybe or minutes before. mr. griffin. what did you do in that or minutes? mr. harrison. i took up a position in the ramp area here and assisted with getting the newsmen on the east side of the ramp. mr. griffin. did you stay in the same general area? mr. harrison. i did; yes. mr. griffin. can you indicate on the map by a circle and an "x" where was it you were, generally? (discussion off the record.) mr. griffin. actually, mr. macmaster, if you feel like you would like to recess this at some particular hour, let me know. mr. macmaster. let me suggest this. do you have any idea how long this interrogation will last? mr. griffin. i wouldn't expect it to go more than minutes. mr. macmaster. more? mr. griffin. no; i don't think it will go any longer than that, however---- mr. macmaster. what is your--would you just rather stay and finish? mr. harrison. i would rather stay and finish. mr. macmaster. all right. i wonder if i may make my one phone call here on the phone? mr. griffin. sure. mr. harrison. may i ask you something here? mr. griffin. yes. let's wait until he finishes. mr. macmaster. well, let's go ahead. my -year-old daughter is on the phone, so that is a career itself trying to get home. i am not going to worry about it. mr. griffin. feel free at any time to interrupt me. go ahead. you wanted to ask me. mr. harrison. i made these two things setting too far away. actually, this camera was setting in this first aisle, one of them was. mr. griffin. i see. mr. harrison. the cameras were right in line here. mr. griffin. and you were making an effort to steer these news people over into this area and away from the main street ramp? mr. harrison. right. mr. griffin. now, do you recall when sam pierce's car drove out? mr. harrison. yes, sir; i do. i let the--i had to move the people back out of the way. there was actually two cars went out. mr. griffin. there were two cars? mr. harrison. yes, sir. mr. griffin. now, tell me about that. mr. harrison. well, there was a patrolman went out that direction in a squad car. mr. griffin. do you know who that was? mr. harrison. i believe it was mr. o'dell. mr. griffin. now, how long before or after pierce's car did he go out? mr. harrison. well, now, it was some or or minutes, something like that, i am sure. mr. griffin. all right. now, let's focus on mr. o'dell's car, then. was anybody in the car with him? mr. harrison. not that i recall. mr. griffin. do you know what--for what purpose he went out? mr. harrison. no; i don't. mr. griffin. what division is he assigned to? mr. harrison. radio patrol. mr. griffin. now, were you aware, while you were down in the basement, of anybody being dispatched to change the positioning of the people along the street who were supposed to block off elm street? mr. harrison. no, sir. mr. griffin. did you have any knowledge at all of how the route was to go, how oswald was to be conveyed? mr. harrison. no, sir. mr. griffin. did you ever have any knowledge as to what was to be used to convey him? mr. harrison. well, when we got down there, they were bringing this armored car, backing the armored car, into the south end or commerce street side of the ramp. mr. griffin. do you recall or would you have been in a position to see whether the armored car was actually in the ramp when you arrived on the scene? mr. harrison. they were backing it in at the time that we came out into the driveway. mr. griffin. i see. were you able to tell whether it would appear that it had just got to the ramp or how long it had been there? mr. harrison. i don't know. mr. griffin. where did o'dell get his car from? mr. harrison. i don't know that. the first time i noticed it was when he came up here through the newsmen. i got them to move back where he could get by, and then there was a couple of men standing up here talking. i believe it was one of the--one of the supervisors talking to a reserve captain, who was standing there. i believe it was arnett. i am not sure. mr. griffin. now, there were--at the time that o'dell's car went out, there were police officers in the direction of the main street ramp, closer to main street than you were? mr. harrison. yes. mr. griffin. would you place on there all of the--all right. let me strike that. go ahead. tell me what you want to say. mr. harrison. at the time that o'dell's car came out, i was back here, in this position here, to help get these men out of the way of the car, and then it was shortly after that that i took up this position here. mr. griffin. i see. all right. now, at the time that o'dell's car came out--well, let's strike this. prior to the time that o'dell's car came out, were you ever in this area here? mr. harrison. yes; i was moving from this area around to here. mr. griffin. all right. mr. harrison. in other words, keeping---- mr. griffin. all right. maybe we can do this sort of like a football diagram. why don't you put your initials right there? and down here why don't you draw a circle and an "x" and just say, "initial placement of harrison"? now, why don't you draw an arrow to the general direction of where you were and put a " " and draw a circle around that, and then down in the corner, put a " " and a circle and put, "position when o'dell's car started to move," if that is correct? now, when o'dell's car moved, were there police officers between you and main street? mr. harrison. there was--i believe there was a captain--i don't recall who it was--i believe it was captain jones, though--talking to this uniformed reserve captain. mr. griffin. solomon? mr. harrison. no; arnett. mr. griffin. arnett? mr. harrison. in the dallas reserves. mr. griffin. were there any other police officers up in that general direction? mr. harrison. there were officers out in this area right in here. mr. griffin. you are pointing to the area north of the entrance to the jail? mr. harrison. well, no; right along the side here. see, this was lined with officers. mr. griffin. the first place that you indicate to is the south wall of the entranceway toward the jail office and up to the corner of the ramp and then along the ramp, the east wall of the ramp? mr. harrison. west wall. mr. griffin. west wall of the ramp toward commerce street? mr. harrison. right. mr. griffin. that is where there were police officers? mr. harrison. yes, sir. mr. griffin. okay. and also that there were police officers along the north wall of the entranceway leading toward the door of the jail office, officers right in there? mr. harrison. yes. mr. griffin. all right. now, as o'dell's car moved up the ramp, what did you do? mr. harrison. i just moved these men back and--or asked them to move back--and let him out. mr. griffin. uh-huh. now, did you watch his car go up the ramp? mr. harrison. no; i didn't. mr. griffin. did you see what jones and arnett did? mr. harrison. no; i didn't. well, i know they moved back out of the way. mr. griffin. were there news people strung across the main street ramp who had to be moved out of the way in order to let o'dell's car move through? mr. harrison. not at that time, not on o'dell's car. mr. griffin. now, what then happened? where did you then go after o'dell's car went up the ramp? mr. harrison. back into my original area. it was about halfway between the ramp and--the rail and the west wall. mr. griffin. were you looking around the area generally? mr. harrison. yes. mr. griffin. now, if anybody had come down the main street ramp while you were standing there up until the time that pierce's car went out, would you have seen him come down? mr. harrison. would you repeat that, now? mr. griffin. if anybody had come down the main street ramp up to the time, between the time that o'dell's car left and the time that pierce's car went up, would you have seen the person who was coming down there? mr. harrison. i don't think i would have. i was facing more or less back in this particular---- mr. griffin. all right. at any time during those few minutes between o'dell's car leaving and pierce's car leaving, did you look in the direction of the main street ramp or over in the direction of the garage area? mr. harrison. yes. mr. griffin. yes. now, if jack ruby had been in that area during that period, would you have seen him? mr. harrison. i don't know about that. mr. griffin. well, now, why do you say that? mr. harrison. i don't know whether i would have seen him or not. it was mass confusion, as far as people moving around in there. mr. griffin. but the confusion was over in the area at the entrance of the garage, wasn't it? mr. harrison. yes. mr. griffin. and this area up the main street ramp was relatively clear? mr. harrison. yes. mr. griffin. and you knew jack ruby well enough, certainly as well as you know mr. macmaster, if you saw him just even briefly, you would recognize him? mr. harrison. yes. mr. griffin. so if at any time you had looked over in that area and jack ruby were there, you would have seen him, wouldn't you? mr. harrison. well, it was very hard to see in this direction at all. mr. griffin. in the direction of the garage? mr. harrison. yes. mr. griffin. why was that? mr. harrison. in this position. these floodlights were very bright. mr. griffin. uh-huh. mr. harrison. they had--i don't know how many they had. mr. griffin. how long were the floodlights on prior to the time that oswald came out? mr. harrison. i don't know. mr. griffin. were they--try to think about this, now--were they on when you first came into the basement? mr. harrison. no; i don't believe they were. mr. griffin. now, they were taken--did you know whether or not, when the armored car came down the commerce street ramp, the, tv cameras, any of the tv cameras, were focused on that armored car? mr. harrison. i didn't notice that. he didn't get all of the way down there. mr. griffin. at the time that rio pierce's car moved out, were the floodlights on? mr. harrison. yes, sir. mr. griffin. at the time that o'dell's car moved out, were the tv cameras--were the floodlights on? mr. harrison. i don't recall whether they were on or off. mr. griffin. now, did you have any trouble seeing up in the direction of the armored car? mr. harrison. no. mr. griffin. and standing, from where you were, even in the center of the entranceway toward the jail office, you could see up the ramp toward the armored car and you could recognize the faces of people up there, couldn't you? mr. harrison. possibly, yes. mr. griffin. was there--other than the little difficulty we all experience with vision, either through age or what-not, was there anything unusually difficult about looking up in the direction and seeing in the direction of the commerce street ramp? mr. harrison. no. mr. griffin. and how far up the ramp was the armored car or how far down the ramp, i should say? mr. harrison. well, i didn't go up there, but it appeared to be setting just backed into the doorway. mr. griffin. would you say it was halfway down? mr. harrison. no; it wasn't halfway down. mr. griffin. now, were there officers, police officers, standing up there around the back of the armored car? mr. harrison. i remember seeing lieutenant butler up there. mr. griffin. and could you distinguish these police officers from the position in the middle of the entranceway to the jail office where you have marked your initial, where you have marked your initial position on the ramp here, could you, looking up towards commerce street, could you distinguish the faces of the police officers up there, could you recognize who they were, toward the armored car? mr. harrison. well, i recognized lieutenant butler, but i don't recall seeing--now, chief batchelor was around the truck. they went in and out of the truck there inspecting it. mr. griffin. and do you recall seeing him up there? mr. harrison. yes. mr. griffin. uh-huh. and you didn't have any difficulty seeing batchelor from your position on the ramp? mr. harrison. no. mr. griffin. and presumably the same situation would prevail if you looked up toward the main street ramp, isn't that right? mr. harrison. that is right. mr. griffin. and did you ever have occasion to look up toward the main street ramp and see the police officer who was guarding the exit to the ramp up there? mr. harrison. there was a uniformed officer up there. mr. griffin. now, from where you were down here at what we have called your initial position, on the time or times that you looked up toward that uniformed officer up there, could you make out his face and what-not? mr. harrison. i never did see his face. all i could see was a man in uniform up there. mr. griffin. now, we have learned subsequently, and you have, too, i am sure, that that was officer vaughn that was up there? mr. harrison. that is right. mr. griffin. did you know vaughn before? mr. harrison. yes, sir. mr. griffin. were you able to tell from where you were that it was vaughn up there? mr. harrison. well, i didn't know who it was up there. i could just see his uniform and back. mr. griffin. was it because he didn't turn his face to you? mr. harrison. he was facing out when i looked up there. mr. griffin. you feel that, if he turned his face toward you, you would have recognized who it was? mr. harrison. i would probably have recognized him; yes. mr. griffin. let me ask you if the same thing is true, when you looked up toward the commerce street entrance and the sidewalk, there were--do you remember that there were officers guarding up there? mr. harrison. i couldn't see any officers out there. it was considerably darker up on this end of the ramp due to the fact that the armored truck had the light blocked off. mr. griffin. i see. mr. harrison. i mean the vision, it was pretty well--the whole ramp area was pretty well taken up by that truck? mr. griffin. yes. let me make sure that i am clear on that. i don't want to put words in your mouth. is it fair to say that, if on any occasion that you had to look up toward the main street ramp, if there had been a man walking down that ramp, you or any other officer with vision like yourself would have been able to recognize that person coming down the ramp? mr. harrison. i don't know whether you could have recognized him or not due to the fact that you were looking into sunlight. mr. griffin. well, that is the north side of the building. mr. harrison. that is on the north side of the building, but it was very bright that day. mr. griffin. but you also had floodlights down in the basement? mr. harrison. that is right. mr. griffin. it was bright in the basement? mr. harrison. that is right. mr. griffin. your eyes would be accustomed to those bright lights? mr. harrison. a man coming down, if he got close to you, you could recognize him, but just a man in a suit walking down that ramp, it would have been hard to recognize. i will put it that way. mr. griffin. well, would a man walking down from the main street side have been any more difficult to recognize than a man that was standing up in the position that captain butler was or assistant chief batchelor was? mr. harrison. batchelor and butler, lieutenant butler. mr. griffin. would it have been any more difficult to recognize a man coming down the main street ramp than it would those two men coming up the commerce street ramp? mr. harrison. yes; i believe it would have been, due to the glare in your face. mr. griffin. now, were you keeping an eye out generally for people, news people, who might try to drift over into that area, and by "that area," i am referring to the area along the main street ramp, across the main street ramp? mr. harrison. would you ask that question again? mr. griffin. yes. mr. harrison. and point out there, please. mr. griffin. yes. i am referring to the area that goes directly across the main street ramp down to the base of the ramp. that area, as i understand it, was supposed to be kept clear. were you keeping an eye out to make sure that people didn't congregate in there? mr. harrison. there was several officers in this area right in here. i don't know the names of them. i couldn't spot any of them for you. there was one newsman, who had a microphone, immediately to my right. mr. griffin. now, your right as you faced in what direction? mr. harrison. as i was facing south. mr. griffin. that would be toward commerce street? mr. harrison. right. mr. griffin. at what point was there a man there? mr. harrison. he was even with me. mr. griffin. i mean at what time---- mr. harrison. oh. mr. griffin. in this series of events. mr. harrison. he was in that general area all of the time. mr. griffin. now, did you keep an eye on him? mr. harrison. no. i wasn't particularly watching him. mr. griffin. were there any other news people who were there in that area? mr. harrison. there was a japanese photographer on my left, immediately to my left. mr. griffin. now, this officer harrison, this position that you have marked here as the initial position, is that also approximately the position you were standing at the time that oswald walked out? mr. harrison. yes. mr. griffin. all right. so that, when you say on your left there, are you talking about at the time that oswald actually walked out, that is where that japanese photographer, newsman, was? mr. harrison. yes. mr. griffin. all right. put an "x," if you would, put a small "j" on that map where that man was and put a circle around it. now, that is where the japanese photographer was standing at the time that oswald walked out---- mr. harrison. yes, sir. mr. griffin. is that right? now, where was this man with the microphone standing? mr. harrison. he was immediately to my right. mr. griffin. why don't you put an "m" and a circle around him? now, were there any other police officers over in this general area where you people were? mr. harrison. yes. mr. griffin. who were the other police officers? mr. harrison. i don't know. mr. griffin. all right. now, when rio pierce's car came out, what did you do? mr. harrison. i got these people to move back out of the way and let him through, and i stepped back to the rail, toward the lights there and let him through. mr. griffin. all right. now, did you have your back to the railing or were you facing the railing? mr. harrison. well, i had my back to the railing. mr. griffin. did you watch pierce's car go up the ramp at all? mr. harrison. i watched it until it cleared the people in that immediate area. mr. griffin. how many people were there to clear out in that immediate area, would you say? mr. harrison. well, there was seven or eight, i would say. mr. griffin. you wouldn't say there were as many as or , would you? mr. harrison. no, no. mr. griffin. now, were those people all newspaper people, members of the press, or were there some police officers? mr. harrison. there were some police officers in that area. mr. griffin. uh-huh. now, at the time that oswald actually came out of the jail office, how many lines of people, would you say, were strung along in that area that you were? was there more than one line of people? mr. harrison. yes. mr. griffin. well, then---- mr. harrison. now, where are you referring to? mr. griffin. as i understand it, as oswald walked out, there was a line of people that came from the north---- mr. harrison. northwest. mr. griffin. what corner are we going to call that, northwest or northeast? i think this would be the west. mr. macmaster. northwest, that is right, isn't it? mr. harrison. yes; that is correct. mr. griffin. i am going to put "northwest corner" here so we will know what we are talking about. there was a line of people, was there not, from what i have marked the northwest corner of the main street wall all of the way over to you and then around here? no? mr. harrison. no. mr. griffin. okay. i am honestly trying to find out here how these people were lined up. mr. harrison. well, due to these lights and the cameras being here, this area was open. there was, like i say, this japanese, and there was another man or two in that area here, whom i don't--i don't have any idea who he was. mr. griffin. just put a couple of question marks there. okay. mr. harrison. and behind me, there were--not immediately behind me, but back in this area---- mr. griffin. all right. mr. harrison. toward the west wall, there was police and also captain arnett of the reserves standing--he was standing fairly close to me behind me. mr. griffin. where was captain arnett? put an "a" where you think he was and then put a circle around that. mr. harrison. he was in that general area somewhere. mr. griffin. at the time that oswald walked out? mr. harrison. yes; i believe he was. i am not---- mr. griffin. do you remember seeing him there about that time? mr. harrison. i remember seeing the uniform there, and he was the captain who was in the uniform down there. mr. griffin. now, do you remember seeing these people over here at that time? mr. harrison. they were--yes; they were there. there were, i believe, two people right in here and there were the cameramen behind the rail. mr. griffin. blackie, do you remember this from actual memory of what happened or do you remember this from having seen the photographs, the films? mr. harrison. well, i remember these people on my left here and the ones here on my right. i remember this man with a microphone very distinctly because, when they brought him out, these fellows back here hollered for me to move the line back, which i did. mr. griffin. now, do you remember if there were any people directly behind you? mr. harrison. no; not that i recall. i remember i spread my arms out and backed the group up where these cameras could get a clear shot of him coming out. mr. griffin. now, is it fair to say that, if there had been people in back of you, you would have either known it because you were looking around there or because you would have wanted to have cleared them out or would have been worried about it or anything like that? mr. harrison. well, i wouldn't necessarily have seen them, because i was watching this line across here to keep them from going forward into the path of this--of where oswald was coming out. mr. griffin. now, at any time after rio pierce's car went up that ramp, did you look in the direction of the ramp? mr. harrison. not that i recall; no. mr. griffin. did you see any other officers look in the direction of the ramp during that period? mr. harrison. no, sir. mr. griffin. now, while you were over here, as rio pierce's car drove out, were other officers lined up along---- mr. harrison. yes, sir. mr. griffin. the other wall? mr. harrison. yes, sir. mr. griffin. and, to your knowledge, were any of them looking out in this direction toward the main street ramp? mr. harrison. i didn't notice any of them looking out that way. they could have been. there was--i know, when they brought oswald out, lowery was standing right here on the--on this corner. mr. griffin. will you put a mark, put an "l" there where lowery was? did you at any time, now, did you see jack ruby in this basement at any time before he shot oswald? mr. harrison. not before he shot oswald. mr. griffin. when you were standing here, did you feel a man pressing up against your back? mr. harrison. no; i didn't. mr. griffin. of course, you have seen the photographs, haven't you? mr. harrison. yes, sir. mr. griffin. and you saw where jack came from? mr. harrison. yes, sir. mr. griffin. was there anybody that you know of that saw ruby there? mr. harrison. not that i know of. mr. griffin. have you talked to anybody that indicated to you that he saw ruby there? mr. harrison. i sure haven't. mr. griffin. now, what did you do after ruby shot oswald? mr. harrison. well, i grabbed him and more or less went to the floor with him and then we took him on into the jail office. mr. griffin. and how long did you remain with him in the jail office? mr. harrison. until he was handcuffed, and i went upstairs on the elevator with him. mr. griffin. and how long did you remain with him upstairs? mr. harrison. i didn't. i left him at the elevator. mcmillon and archer went back, took him on back to the cell, and i went back down on the elevator to the basement. mr. griffin. what did you do--you weren't present, were you, when jack was stripped and searched? mr. harrison. no. mr. griffin. when you got back down to the basement, where did you go? mr. harrison. i went back out into the ramp area. mr. griffin. now, did you--how long did you remain in the ramp area? mr. harrison. well, it was about--until after the ambulance left with oswald, and then the captain--i believe it was captain jones--sent me up to the first floor to see that no one come in there in that--on the first floor that wasn't authorized. we were given orders to stop everyone and see if they were going out of the building to find out who they were. mr. griffin. whereabouts did you station yourself on the first floor? mr. harrison. i was right there in front of the elevators, at the elevator door. mr. griffin. were you there alone? mr. harrison. there was--well, there was three or four more officers on that floor. there was one at every door and exit. mr. griffin. was officer miller up there with you? mr. harrison. i don't recall where miller was at that time. mr. griffin. was officer lowery up there with you? mr. harrison. i don't recall. mr. griffin. officer cutchshaw? mr. harrison. i don't know whether they were or not. mr. griffin. did you talk to anybody while you were up there or before you got up there concerning how ruby got into the basement? mr. harrison. no; i told chief batchelor, just after i come back downstairs from taking him up--i told chief batchelor that i thought he come from behind those cameras over there, but--and that is where i thought he come from at that time. mr. griffin. now, why did you think he came from behind the cameras? mr. harrison. well, there was--he came from my left, and i don't see how he could get down the ramp. mr. griffin. why did you feel that way? mr. harrison. well, i knew there was an officer on the ramp and i just didn't feel like he could have gotten down there. mr. griffin. did you also feel that you would have seen him if he had come down that ramp? mr. harrison. no, not necessarily; because i wasn't looking toward the ramp all of the time. i never--had i been turned where i could have seen the ramp all of the time, i may have seen him coming down. mr. griffin. if jack had been in that--were you moving around such after rio pierce's car moved that, if jack had been down there in the basement area, you would have seen him? mr. harrison. not necessarily; it is possible that he could have been down there and i wouldn't have seen him because he had been back over in this group of newsmen. mr. griffin. all right; but if he had been in the area of the ramp, if he had been up in this area where you were and around up toward the main street ramp, would you have seen him if he had been in there? mr. harrison. i might have. i don't--i don't know. mr. griffin. there weren't enough news people milling around up in that area to have obscured him, were there? mr. harrison. not in that immediate area; no. mr. griffin. in other words, if anybody had been turning and looking up toward the main street ramp, there wouldn't have been enough newspaper people in there to have obscured the sight of jack ruby? mr. harrison. i don't suppose there would have been. mr. griffin. now, i am not trying to put words in your mouth. i want to make this very clear. i am giving you a direct question like this, but if you feel differently, i want to know if you disagree with me. i am asking a leading question here, but i want to make sure that i am not leading---- mr. harrison. what was the question again? mr. griffin. if jack ruby had been in this area at the base of the main street ramp, there wouldn't have been enough newspaper people there? the fact that there were newspaper people around wouldn't have obscured the sight of him from anybody that was looking up in that direction? mr. harrison. i don't think it would have obscured him, had they been looking in that direction. now, i did, as i said a while ago, i have looked at some films, and i did look to my left, oh---- mr. griffin. by "left," you mean up in the direction of the main street ramp? mr. harrison. when this guy hollered to me to move the crowd back, i looked to my left and backed the people up. mr. griffin. your left would be up in the direction of the main street ramp? mr. harrison. no; it would be toward the cameras. mr. griffin. toward the cameras? mr. harrison. television cameras, yes; over in this direction. mr. griffin. and, as you looked over there, you didn't see jack ruby? mr. harrison. no; i didn't. mr. griffin. do you remember looking over there like that or do you only remember it from having seen the photograph? mr. harrison. no; when they hollered, i glanced over there to see where we were in trying to---- mr. griffin. all right. mr. harrison. in trying to get out of line of those cameras. mr. griffin. now, do you remember, as you looked over there, whether you had any difficulty in seeing people over in that area? mr. harrison. there wasn't anyone in here. mr. griffin. in front of the cameras? mr. harrison. no; there was no one in front of the cameras. mr. griffin. what would you say would be the total number of people, including newspaper people and police officers, who were strung from the northwest corner over toward the cameras at the time oswald came out? mr. harrison. i would say maybe eight or nine. mr. griffin. all right, now. how long did you remain up there by those elevators? mr. harrison. well, it was, i imagine, minutes. mr. griffin. and what did you do when you left the elevators? mr. harrison. went back upstairs to the bureau. mr. griffin. which bureau, now, juvenile bureau? mr. harrison. juvenile bureau. mr. griffin. what did you do in the juvenile bureau? mr. harrison. we stayed there until they told us to--captain jones told us to go up to homicide bureau and write a report as to what we saw and what we did on this thing. mr. griffin. all right. now, did captain jones give the instructions to write a report to everybody? mr. harrison. well, he told--i didn't hear him give it to everybody. he told me and cutchshaw and lowery to. mr. griffin. was miller up there at the time? mr. harrison. i don't recall whether miller was there or not. mr. griffin. was it your understanding that jones was trying to contact everybody to get them to write a report as quickly as possible? mr. harrison. well, now, i don't know about that. he came up there and told me to report back to the bureau, and when we got to the bureau, well, he told--came in and told lowery, myself, and cutchshaw--i remember that very distinctly--to go into captain fritz' office and write a report. mr. griffin. now, about what time would you say you wrote that report? mr. harrison. i don't have any idea. mr. griffin. well, let me ask you this, then. maybe this will place it. after you wrote that report, you went out to love field, didn't you? mr. harrison. yes, sir. mr. griffin. now, what time would you estimate that you went to love field? mr. harrison. well, we were supposed to be out there when mayor cabell's plane left. i believe it was at : , and we left the city hall shortly after o'clock. mr. griffin. when you left the city hall, did you make--did you report in with the dispatcher or anything like that? mr. harrison. no; there was no--we went out in two separate cars and we went to--started up harwood street, and they gave lowery a call to return to the station, and captain martin met us there in the basement and briefed us as to what to do out at love field. mr. griffin. all right. mr. harrison. and then we headed on out to love field. mr. griffin. all right. but, on this question, i understand you that there would not be any record in the office, such as a dispatcher's record or something like that, that would show when you left for love field, or would there? mr. harrison. there would be a record of what time he gave lowery that call to return to the station. mr. griffin. all right. and that was a call from captain who? mr. harrison. martin. mr. griffin. now, you had already started out---- mr. harrison. yes. mr. griffin. and turned around and came back? okay; now, how much time elapsed between the time that you finished--well, strike that. did you finish writing the report in the homicide office? mr. harrison. yes. mr. griffin. how much time elapsed between when you finished that report in the homicide office and you got in your car to go out to love field? mr. harrison. i don't have any idea, sir. mr. griffin. was it right away or did you go back to the juvenile bureau? mr. harrison. well, we went back to the juvenile bureau; yes. mr. griffin. now, is there an original copy--you wrote that report by hand, didn't you? mr. harrison. yes. mr. griffin. now, and is that--i am going to call a halt here and i am going to mark a couple of exhibits. all right. i am going to hand you, mr. harrison, what i have marked as exhibit no. . now, this is a copy of a letter, which you apparently signed and was addressed to chief curry dated november . now, let me ask you, did you write that out in hand first? mr. harrison. yes. mr. griffin. and do you know whether your office has retained handwritten copies of those reports? mr. harrison. no. it was--i am sure it was thrown away. mr. griffin. now, who did you turn your handwritten copy over to? mr. harrison. i don't know who typed it up. i know this was signed and sent in by, i think, lieutenant wallace. mr. griffin. all right. would you do this for me? after we finish here, would you check with captain martin and lieutenant wallace and find out from them if the handwritten copies of the things--of your report, handwritten copy of your report, is available---- mr. harrison. all right. mr. griffin. if it has been retained? i believe that you will find that many of these were retained. there are other officers who have been able to get these for us. mr. harrison. uh-huh. mr. griffin. and so i am inclined to believe that it is probably available someplace, and if you will get that and turn it over to us, i would appreciate that very much. we will make a copy of it and return the original to the department, but i would like a copy of that. now, do you remember whether or not--do you remember any of the people who were in the homicide office when you filled out that report? mr. harrison. cutchshaw, myself. mr. griffin. any of the homicide people who were there? mr. harrison. i don't recall. mr. griffin. do you remember if fritz was there? mr. harrison. he was in and out of there during the time that we were in there, but i don't recall how long he stayed or anything like that. mr. griffin. do you remember if montgomery was there? mr. harrison. yes, montgomery was in there. mr. griffin. how do you happen to know about montgomery being there? mr. harrison. well, i know montgomery very well. in fact, i used to be close neighbors to him. mr. griffin. i see. mr. harrison. and i do remember him being in there. i remember that very clearly. mr. griffin. now, did you talk with montgomery at all about what had happened down in the basement? mr. harrison. no, sir. mr. griffin. while you were in the juvenile bureau, before you left to go to love field, did you hear any rumors as to how ruby got in the basement? mr. harrison. no. they were talking about--lowery said that he thought that he may have come by with a camera that was moved across just prior to the time that pierce's car went out, and they were talking about the number of men who were on that camera, the particular camera. and--but that is the only discussion i heard as to how he may have got in there. for some time there, we thought that may have been the way he got in, i mean the men in my particular bureau. mr. griffin. when did lowery first tell you that? mr. harrison. well, he had started talking about this when we were in the basement. mr. griffin. and while you were in the basement, did you hear any other rumors as to how he got in? mr. harrison. no, sir; sure didn't. mr. griffin. now, as long as you were at the juvenile bureau, did you hear any rumor about his coming down the main street ramp? mr. harrison. no, no; i didn't. mr. griffin. did you talk with officer mcmillon on the day before you went to the juvenile bureau and after ruby was shot--i mean oswald was shot? mr. harrison. no; i didn't. mr. griffin. how about officer archer? mr. harrison. well, now, they went up on the elevator with me, i found out later, but i didn't see them. mr. griffin. or clardy? mr. harrison. i don't remember whether clardy was on there or not. mr. griffin. or dean? mr. harrison. i don't recall if dean was on there. mr. griffin. now, did you talk with dean at any time on the th after ruby was shot--oswald was shot? mr. harrison. no, i didn't talk with dean at all. mr. griffin. did you talk to any people in the patrol division---- mr. harrison. no, sir. mr. griffin. afterward? mr. harrison. no, sir. (discussion off the record.) mr. griffin. at any time on sunday, that is, the day that oswald was shot, did you hear the rumor that ruby came down the main street ramp? mr. harrison. no, sir. mr. griffin. now, when you got back--what time did you get back to the juvenile bureau on friday--i mean on sunday? mr. harrison. it was well after o'clock. mr. griffin. and did you--when you got back there, did you talk with anybody about how ruby might have got in? mr. harrison. no; i went on home. mr. griffin. did you hear any discussion from anybody---- mr. harrison. no, sir. mr. griffin. from anybody about how--well, weren't people generally discussing this? mr. harrison. i suppose they were, but i was tired, and i went home. mr. griffin. wasn't this a big topic of conversation back there at this time? mr. harrison. i don't know. mr. griffin. all right. when you got back on monday morning--did you come in monday morning? mr. harrison. yes, sir. mr. griffin. did you begin to talk with people about how ruby got in? mr. harrison. i suppose i did, but i don't recall. mr. griffin. when is the first time that you recall hearing the rumor that he came down the main street ramp? mr. harrison. well, it would have been possibly monday. i was off tuesday and wednesday. i am not sure. mr. griffin. now, did mcmillon ever tell you at any time that--have you talked with mcmillon about this, these events, at any time since sunday the th? mr. harrison. we have had some discussion, but i don't recall what it was. of course, we have talked to several. mr. griffin. did you talk to dean at any time? mr. harrison. no; i have never talked to him. mr. griffin. are you friendly to dean? mr. harrison. no; he is in the radio patrol, and i very seldom see the man. mr. griffin. all right. how about archer? mr. harrison. archer, he is in the auto bureau. i see him occasionally. mr. griffin. how about clardy? mr. harrison. occasionally; i see him. mr. griffin. now, have any of these men told you since the--since the time that oswald was shot by ruby that ruby told them that he came in through the main street ramp? mr. harrison. they never did tell me that, none of them. now---- mr. griffin. when was the first--go ahead. mr. harrison. i heard, after the trial down there--i heard them discussing, of course, the evidence that was brought out, and they said that he had made the statement that he came in that way. and when lieutenant wallace and lieutenant mccaghren were making their followup investigation, which i don't know how many days it was after, they had talked that he had, or suggested that he had, come down the ramp. mr. griffin. now, they had suggested this? mr. harrison. well, they had, through their investigation, more or less, they had kind of--i guess you would make a theory out of it that he had come down the ramp. mr. griffin. you don't mean that they suggested it, but this is the inference or the conclusion that they drew? mr. harrison. yes. mr. griffin. now, what i would like for you to do is, if you would, sign exhibit and date it. mr. harrison. this is the th, isn't it? mr. griffin. yes, it is. isn't it? yes. i might say for the record, so that mr. macmaster understands, part of the procedures here now permit you to ask any questions that you want of mr. harrison, and i am going to just ask him to identify, sign these documents, identify them, and ask him specifically whether he has any changes that he would want to make on these, particularly on these reports and statements, and i am prepared to accommodate myself to your time on this, if you feel that you want to ask some questions. if you prefer to adjourn for dinner, or something like that, and come back, i would be happy to do that, and resume it later on this evening. mr. harrison. i would rather go ahead with it, if it is agreeable with you all. mr. griffin. it doesn't make any difference with me. mr. macmaster. mr. harrison, on exhibit , i believe that was the first exhibit. mr. griffin. twenty-seven. mr. macmaster. twenty-seven. that is just a reference to the basement area. is that the police recreation room or locker room? mr. harrison. yes. mr. macmaster. that is just a rough hand drawing, you didn't intend that to be exact to scale in any way? mr. harrison. no. mr. macmaster. that is all. at the time you were down in the basement area and they brought oswald down, with the police security measures that were in effect, you wouldn't have any reason to believe that any unauthorized person would enter into the area, would you---- mr. harrison. no, sir. mr. macmaster. because of the police measures in effect at that time---- mr. harrison. yes, sir. mr. macmaster. security measures? in other words, any other unauthorized persons in the area, in other words, ruby, would be a big surprise to you? mr. harrison. it would; yes. mr. macmaster. was it a surprise to you to see an unauthorized person down there the first time when he came around you? mr. harrison. it certainly was. mr. macmaster. now, on extra duty for police officers, isn't it a standard departmental policy that you can't work on off-duty work at anyplace serving alcoholic beverages? mr. harrison. that is correct. mr. macmaster. is that the chief's direct order? mr. harrison. that is a direct order. they have special officers for that type of work. mr. macmaster. but it is in the nature of regular police duty, that is, special officers? mr. harrison. yes, sir. mr. macmaster. but you can't, that is, in civilian clothes, you can't work anyplace in an off-duty status for extra money in anyplace serving alcoholic beverages? mr. harrison. that is right; either in uniform or out of uniform. mr. macmaster. that is all. mr. griffin. mr. harrison, i wonder if you would look at what i have marked as exhibits , , and . five thousand twenty-nine is a report of an interview of two fbi agents, wilkinson and hardin, had with you on december , ; exhibit is a copy of a statement or a letter, which you addressed to chief curry, dated november , , entitled, "subject: shooting of lee harvey oswald," and exhibit is a copy of--is a report of an interview that agent bookhout, [spelling] b-o-o-k-h-o-u-t, had with you on november , . have you looked over these statements today? mr. harrison. yes; i have. mr. griffin. now, do you want to make any changes or corrections or additions in there in those statements, keeping in mind the testimony that has already been given here today? mr. harrison. this on mr. bookhout's interview, which was over the telephone. mr. griffin. it was? mr. harrison. it was over the telephone. i was at love field when this---- mr. macmaster. to identify that, that is exhibit you are referring to. mr. griffin. yes; let me ask you a question there. do you know how bookhout reached you there? mr. harrison. i had called in to see how long they wanted us to stay out there, and lieutenant coulon identified mr. bookhout to me over the phone. mr. griffin. now, did bookhout ask you, or did anybody ask you, if any other officers were out there with you? mr. harrison. yes. mr. griffin. and did bookhout talk to those officers over the phone, also? mr. harrison. no; he did not. mr. griffin. i see. mr. harrison. but this one little part right here, i don't recall saying that at all. mr. griffin. all right. what part is that? mr. harrison. "saved a lot of people some trouble." mr. griffin. well, all right. now, is it possible that you could have said that to him? mr. harrison. i don't think i did. mr. griffin. why do you say that you don't think you did? mr. harrison. well, i didn't hear it. i mean i heard him say this very plain. mr. griffin. "i hope i killed the sob," you heard him say that? mr. harrison. yes, sir. mr. griffin. but you didn't hear him state, "and saved a lot of people some trouble"? mr. harrison. i don't recall hearing that. mr. griffin. all right. would you do this? would you take a pen and would you put a parenthesis around from "and" to the end of that sentence, and then would you write in there, "i don't believe i stated that," or whatever you believe that reflects your opinion at this time? would you initial that? mr. harrison. i did. mr. griffin. and date it. it is the th day. now, are there any other changes or additions or corrections you would make on there? mr. harrison. oh, on this, where it says, "you all know me, i am jack ruby, made that several times," he didn't make the statement but once, actually and i don't know where this "several times" came from. mr. macmaster. was that just once in your presence? mr. harrison. yes. mr. macmaster. in other words, while you were around and near jack ruby, is the only time you heard him was just one time? mr. harrison. one time. mr. griffin. all right. why don't you cross out "several times" and write "once"? and why don't you initial it and date it? anything else on there? mr. harrison. no. it all seems to be---- mr. griffin. all right. if you would, sign each of those. mr. harrison. where? mr. griffin. well, put it down on the same page that i have marked the exhibit, some place where it is legible. why don't you put it down at the bottom of the page and date it? mr. harrison. all of them? mr. griffin. yes. well, not every page. just every page that i have marked as an exhibit. mr. macmaster. is that all now? mr. griffin. that is all that i have got. mr. macmaster. do you have any more? mr. griffin. i do have one other question to ask here. mr. macmaster. okay. mr. griffin. have i or any member of the commission staff talked with you prior to this deposition? mr. harrison. no, sir. testimony of harold b. holly, jr. the testimony of harold b. holly, jr., was taken at p.m., on march , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. leon d. hubert, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. hubert. this is the deposition of mr. harold b. holly, jr. mr. holly, my name is leon d. hubert. i am a member of the staff of the general counsel to the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy. under the authority of the presidential proclamation , dated november , , a joint resolution of congress no. , and rules of procedure that have been adopted by the commission, i have been authorized to take your deposition under oath. now, the general nature of the inquiry of the commission is to ascertain the facts concerning the death of president kennedy and the death of lee harvey oswald. in particular as to you, the inquiry is to determine what facts you know concerning these events, or anything related to them. i advise you that under the rules adopted by the commission, you have a right to a -day written notice prior to being asked to come for a deposition, but the rules also provide that a witness may waive that right if he wishes to do so. you have been asked to come because mr. j. lee rankin, the general counsel of the commission, wrote a letter to mr. j. e. curry asking that he make you available. but i repeat, you may either waive the -day notice, or if you wish you may insist on the -day notice. do you wish to waive that notice? mr. holly. no; i would like to go ahead. mr. hubert. you mean yes, you wish to waive? you would rather go ahead? mr. holly. yes. mr. hubert. then i will ask you to stand and raise your right hand. do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. holly. i do. mr. hubert. what is your full name, sir? mr. holly. harold b. holly, jr. mr. hubert. how old are you? mr. holly. forty-seven. mr. hubert. where do you live? mr. holly. antilles, mesquite. mr. hubert. mesquite, it is not in dallas? mr. holly. no; it is mesquite, tex., a suburb. mr. hubert. now, you are actually a reserve officer of the dallas police? mr. holly. yes. mr. hubert. how long have you been connected with the reserves? mr. holly. five years, going on six. mr. hubert. what is your occupation in civilian life? mr. holly. general contractor and cabinetwork. mr. hubert. do you own your own business? mr. holly. yes, sir. nineteen years. mr. hubert. in that business? mr. holly. yes, sir. mr. hubert. i know that you performed some services as a reserve officer on the d and d, but our inquiry now is as to the functions you performed on the th, or perhaps you didn't perform? mr. holly. let's say the d and the th. the assassination took place the d, right? mr. hubert. no, d. mr. holly. d and d. mr. hubert. that was a saturday. i am asking about sunday the th. mr. holly. i was up here all day saturday. sunday, i didn't participate, as well as i can remember. mr. hubert. you had not anticipated being called? mr. holly. no. mr. hubert. were you, in fact, called on sunday? mr. holly. i don't recall now. it is pretty vague there. the day of assassination i was called, and the day oswald was shot, i was called. mr. hubert. well, that was the th of november, a sunday. mr. holly. sunday. mr. hubert. all right, how were you called? mr. holly. i beg your pardon, i was here friday. friday, saturday, and sunday; i sure was. mr. hubert. and at what time were you called on sunday the th the day oswald was shot? mr. holly. it was the morning. i believe it was around o'clock and they called and said for me to report downtown. they were going to try to move him out around o'clock. i immediately come to town. mr. hubert. you got into uniform? mr. holly. yes; and at the present time, i don't recall, because i got down about minutes after he was shot. i reported for duty at the entrance of the main street entrance to the city hall. mr. hubert. he had already been shot? mr. holly. yes. mr. hubert. to whom did you speak who gave you that information? mr. holly. lieutenant kriss. mr. hubert. did you receive any assignment? mr. holly. yes. i was assigned to direct traffic and keep traffic from bogging down in front of the city hall entrance. and i stayed there approximately minutes, and then i was reassigned out at parkland hospital. mr. hubert. how did you go out there? mr. holly. by the convenience of the city. we was hauled out in a squad car. mr. hubert. did you go out with any group? mr. holly. yes; i went out with a group. there were five in our group. mr. hubert. how long were you out there? mr. holly. i was there approximately hours. mr. hubert. who was with you in that group? mr. holly. well---- mr. hubert. do you remember the names? mr. holly. no; i don't. i don't recall none of the names, because i wasn't familiar with any of the boys. mr. hubert. now, do you remember that during the time that you were out at parkland hospital another reserve officer approached you and stated that he had seen the man who shot oswald coming down the ramp? mr. holly. no; he didn't approach me, because i approached him. i went over to find where i could get some water. i was stationed where the entrance is where the governor was, and he told me there was some coffee and water if i wanted, and i went in and when i came back i struck up a conversation with the man, and we were talking about---- mr. hubert. was he a reserve officer? mr. holly. yes; he was a reserve. and in the conversation he said that he either knew or he saw ruby down in the city hall, knew of him getting down in there. mr. hubert. was he speaking, from what you could tell, of ruby being down in there on the morning that oswald was assassinated? mr. holly. yes. i asked him--the conversation went like, well, how in the world could they ever let him in. everybody knew him, which most reserves do know him. mr. hubert. you knew him? mr. holly. oh, yes; i knew him. i did business with him. and i would know him if i saw him. but i wasn't stationed down there, so therefore, i don't know. and he said he saw him down there, or did see of him, or he in someway, one of the reserves had let him in, and he had a lapel pass on. mr. hubert. now, do you know who he was, this reserve? mr. holly. no. i tried to go through the photographs of who i thought it was. i never have learned if it was him. mr. hubert. you did pick out a person? mr. holly. yes. mr. hubert. do you know the name of the man you picked out? mr. holly. no. captain solomon mentioned his name, but i don't recall it. mr. hubert. does the name newman refresh your memory? mr. holly. newman? it's been so long ago. i wouldn't say. mr. hubert. was there any doubt about your identification? mr. holly. well, other than i described the man to him, and, of course, i went over the photographs with captain solomon on sunday. mr. hubert. a week later? mr. holly. on that following sunday after the date. no; it was a week later. i beg your pardon. it was a week later, and i met him up there sunday, and we went over the photographs with men in their uniforms, and the boy i picked out, captain solomon said, "well, that is one of the men that is down in the basement," and that is the only one i could think it could have been. and he contacted the man and the man was hunting at that time, and i never did hear of any more of it. mr. hubert. well, what i mean is, the man you did pick out, is there any doubt in your mind that you picked out the man you spoke to at the hospital who told you he had seen ruby? mr. holly. there is a little doubt there, yes. i wouldn't be too positive of it. but i feel---- mr. hubert. have you seen this man since? mr. holly. no; i haven't seen him since. i didn't know him and never had seen him before that. but i am pretty positive i picked out the right man, the one that i did see and talk to. mr. hubert. let me see if i can get you straight. you say that you are pretty positive that you did pick out the right man, but a little while before you said that you weren't quite sure? there is a little difference between the two? mr. holly. i went over several photographs with captain solomon and he is the only one that resembles him. the photographs he showed me were old photographs, so there was a little doubt there, and that is the only part i can be doubted on. i think he said the photographs he showed me were maybe years old. mr. hubert. but he didn't get the man and confront you with him? mr. holly. no. mr. hubert. was this man that you saw a youngish man or middle age or what? mr. holly. i would say he was in his thirties, about years old or years old. mr. hubert. was he a little husky? mr. holly. he was about or , about ' " or ", and blue eyes and bald headed. mr. hubert. he had on a cap? mr. holly. had a cap on, and didn't wear any glasses. mr. hubert. he had on a hat? mr. holly. had a cap on, and didn't wear any glasses. mr. hubert. so, the way i see it, among those pictures that captain solomon showed you, you picked out the man you thought was the man? mr. holly. i still think it was the same man that captain solomon--he didn't tell me prior, but after i picked him out, he said that is the only man it could have been, because he was down in the basement, and the way i described it, it fitted the description i had given. he did explain after it was over that the photographs were about years old. mr. hubert. now, i think that you passed on the information that this reserve officer had given you to someone, did you not? mr. holly. how was that? mr. hubert. you reported to someone that a reserve officer had told you? mr. holly. yes; i did. mr. hubert. who did you report it to? mr. holly. i reported it to the cid officer, i guess it was, down on the first or second floor of the city hall. mr. hubert. do you remember who it was? mr. holly. no; it was lieutenant someone, through one of the detectives. mr. hubert. which detective was that? mr. holly. detective eberhardt. i gave the information to one of the stenographers up in burglary and theft division, and i typed it out and sent it on down to the lieutenant. offhand, i don't recall his name. it was one of the investigators on the case. mr. hubert. were you contacted to make a statement about your activities? mr. holly. the subject, how it come up, one of the detectives was out at the house, and the subject came up that they were trying to find out how in the world ruby ever got down in the basement. and i said, "well, my lord, one of the reserves let him in." mr. hubert. when was that? mr. holly. i would say that was on about a wednesday or thursday after the accident. and he said, "will you make a statement?" and i said, "i will be glad to." mr. hubert. did you make a written statement, or was it just oral? mr. holly. oral statement and i signed. mr. hubert. did they write it up in the form of an interview, or did he write it for your signature as a letter to the chief? mr. holly. a letter to the--it went through--i don't know what procedure it did go through. i just don't know the hand it went into. mr. hubert. for the purpose of identification, we will see if we can determine whether the written reports you have just been speaking of is one of these, one that i have here. and also in order to get the contents of these two reports into the record, i am going to identify them by marking the first one as "dallas, tex., march , , exhibit no. , deposition of h. b. holly, jr.," and i am signing my name on the margin. i notice that it has a second page with two lines, and i am putting my initials in the lower right-hand corner. the other document is a document consisting of five pages, being an interview, or the report of an interview by two fbi agents, mr. dallman and mr. quigley. i am marking that as "dallas, tex., march , , exhibit no. , deposition of h. b. holly, jr." i am signing my name on the first page and putting my initials on the second, third, fourth, and fifth pages. i would like you, mr. holly, if you will, please to read all these, and i want to ask you about the correctness of each one. so i would like you to read it carefully and after you have done so, i will ask you to make any comments you want as to the correctness, make any changes you want, if it is not correct, because neither of these are your own statements. this is what other people said you said. then i want to find out, too, if there is another report that you, yourself, signed, because they don't purport to be signed by you. so, would you do that, please? mr. holly. [reads report.] mr. hubert. now, mr. holly, i have shown you, and i think you have read now the exhibits which i have identified as no. , being a report of an interview of you by jack revill, said report being made to chief of police curry in a letter dated december , . does that substantially represent what you said? mr. holly. yes, sir. mr. hubert. is anything wrong about it? mr. holly. the only thing i can see wrong is, the report wasn't made right after the assassination. it was about days afterwards. that is the only thing i can see. mr. hubert. well, of course, this doesn't say when the report was made. oh, you mean the report about having heard that? mr. holly. to lieutenant revill there. i believe he corrected that, but it wasn't made right after. statement says that i made a statement to sergeant eberhart. mr. hubert. i don't see anything in that indicates you made this report about talking to that man the next day. as a matter of fact, i don't see where this report of an interview by revill attempts to indicate the day on which you reported that this reserve officer had said these things to you. i think the other document does that. well, let's look at , which is the fbi report of interview, i think. mr. holly. i believe it was in the fbi report there. mr. hubert. yes; on the third page there is of exhibit , in the last paragraph, there is the following language. "he relayed this information to a close personal friend of his, detective gus eberhardt, who is a regular officer assigned to the burglary and theft bureau. he believed he told eberhardt this on the following day." is that the part you think is not correct? mr. holly. no; that is not correct. mr. hubert. when did you, then? mr. holly. it was about the sunday. it was about thursday of that week, approximately thursday of that week, he come out to the house, and i was going to ride with him that night, and he made the statement that he was trying to find out as to how ruby entered the city hall, and i said, "well, the information you have there i passed on to him." and he said, "will you make a signed statement to that effect." and i said, "i would be glad to." mr. hubert. did you then and there---- mr. holly. i immediately rode to the city hall and made a report, made a statement to the secretary there in the burglary and theft division. mr. hubert. well, now, let me get another book and perhaps we can get that in too. (discussion off the record.) i am now marking for identification a document which is commission document a. . it is apparently a copy of a letter dated november , , addressed to mr. j. e. curry, chief of police, by a. m. eberhardt, detective. the copy seems to be signed in ink by a. m. eberhardt. for identification, i am marking that document, although i am not removing it from this file, and "dallas, tex., march , , exhibit no. , deposition of h. b. holly." i am signing my name, leon d. hubert, jr. that document consists of only one page. now, going back for a moment to , that is the fbi report, i think you said that you had read it and that you found it correct, that it is probably a correct record of the interview you had with the fbi agents, except that it was in error when it stated that you had conveyed this information to eberhart on the day after oswald was shot. your recollection was that it was thursday of that week? mr. holly. yes. mr. hubert. this letter indicates, exhibit , indicates that that information was passed on to eberhardt on november , which i believe was a thursday. mr. holly. yes; i don't remember if that is dated or not. mr. hubert. that is dated november . mr. holly. that was a wednesday or thursday after the shooting? mr. hubert. the th or november , was a friday night. could it have been friday night? mr. holly. yes; it could have been. mr. hubert. in any case, this exhibit , you think, is the report that you were speaking of a little while ago in your deposition? mr. holly. yes; that is the only report that i made to detective eberhardt. mr. hubert. i think you said you thought you had signed it. mr. holly. i thought i signed that. that is the one right there. mr. hubert. exhibit is the one you were talking about? mr. holly. yes. mr. hubert. but you had the recollection of having signed it? of course, here we have only a copy of it. mr. holly. yes. mr. hubert. it may be that you did sign the original, but it doesn't indicate that there was a space for you to sign. mr. holly. i was thinking i signed it. mr. hubert. there was no other report than this one here? mr. holly. no; no other report other than the one that i talked to lieutenant revill about. mr. hubert. have you any other statements or comments to make concerning any part of this? mr. holly. no; i have covered it pretty well, i think. mr. hubert. have you had any interviews with any others than this deposition today? mr. holly. no, sir; this is the first time i ever met or seen you. mr. hubert. have you had any interviews with any other members of the president's commission, do you know? mr. holly. no; other than the fbi, two fbi officers. mr. hubert. i am talking about persons who identified themselves as members of the commission? mr. holly. no; none whatsoever. mr. hubert. all right, sir, thank you very much. mr. holly. that is all right. i am glad to be of service. testimony of harry m. kriss the testimony of harry m. kriss was taken at : p.m., on march , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. leon d. hubert, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. hubert. this is the deposition of mr. harry kriss. mr. kriss, my name is leon hubert. i am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the commission. under the provisions of the president's executive order , dated november , , and the joint resolution of congress no. , and the rules of procedure adopted by the commission in conformance with the executive order and the joint resolution, i have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you. i state to you now that the general nature of the commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of president kennedy and the subsequent violent death of lee harvey oswald. in particular to you, mr. kriss, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine the facts that you know about the death of oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. now, mr. kriss, you have appeared here tonight by virtue of a general request made by mr. j. lee rankin, general counsel of the staff of the president's commission to mr. j. e. curry, the chief of police, who was asked to make all of you gentlemen available to us. under the rules adopted by the commission, however, you were entitled to a -day written notice prior to the taking of this deposition, but the rules also provide that a witness may waive this -day notice if he wishes to do so. are you willing to waive? mr. kriss. yes; i will waive. mr. hubert. will you stand so as to be sworn. do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. kriss. so help me god. mr. hubert. will you please state your full name? mr. kriss. harry m. kriss [spelling] k-r-i-s-s. m is the initial. mr. hubert. your age, please? your age? mr. kriss. fifty-three. mr. hubert. where do you reside, sir? mr. kriss. merrilee lane. mr. hubert. in dallas? mr. kriss. in dallas. mr. hubert. now, you are a reserve officer, are you not? mr. kriss. yes, sir; in dallas. mr. hubert. what is your occupation in general? mr. kriss. occupation in general, manufacturer of sportswear, men's, and manufacturer of neckwear. mr. hubert. are you a native of dallas? mr. kriss. yes. mr. hubert. and how long have you been in the reserve? mr. kriss. eleven years. mr. hubert. all right, now, were you called on november , ? mr. kriss. well---- mr. hubert. that is the sunday after the president's death. mr. kriss. that is sunday after--yes, sir; yes. mr. hubert. you were at home at the time? mr. kriss. yes, sir; i was getting ready to play golf. four or five more minutes and i'd have been gone. mr. hubert. and you were called to report? mr. kriss. yes. mr. hubert. and when you did report, did you report in uniform? mr. kriss. yes; surely i did. mr. hubert. well, mr. kriss, i am showing you here two documents which concern what you have already had to say about the matter. mr. kriss. yes. mr. hubert. and i think we can save considerable time if i'll ask you to identify these and comment upon them, but before doing so i wish to identify them as exhibits so that we can speak of them in those terms. mr. kriss. okay. mr. hubert. therefore, on the letter, or copy of a letter dated november , addressed to j. e. curry, the original of which, i suppose, was signed by you, i am marking it for identification, "dallas, texas, march , , exhibit . deposition of h. m. kriss." i will put "reserve officer." i will sign my name to that, and i note that this exhibit consists of one page only. the next document is a report of an interview made december , , with you by the fbi agents wilkinson and hardin and it consists of two pages. i am marking the first page, "dallas, texas, march , , exhibit . deposition of h. m. kriss." or, rather, "reserve officer", and i am signing my name on the first page and placing my initials in the lower right-hand corner of the second page. now, mr. kriss, you have read both of these statements i believe? mr. kriss. yes, sir. mr. hubert. are these substantially correct? mr. kriss. substantially; yes. mr. hubert. do you have any additions to add to it? mr. kriss. i can't think of any. mr. hubert. do you have anything that you see that is wrong that should be deleted? mr. kriss. no, sir. mr. hubert. well, then, in order that your testimony just now concerning these documents may be tied into the particular documents, i would like you to sign them so that the record will show that we are both talking about the same documents. mr. kriss. yes. mr. hubert. just write underneath my signature. mr. kriss. well, do you have a pen? mr. hubert. yes; you can use that one. just initial the second page. now, sign--initial the second page on the fbi report. mr. kriss. you want me to sign? mr. hubert. yes; just sign under my name. i think there is only one point i want to clarify about this matter. are you familiar with the chart or map made by the dallas police department of the basement area showing the positions of all the various officers? mr. kriss. yes. mr. hubert. well, in the report that they have filed, the documents relative to your statements, you are identified in that report as no. . as a matter of fact, attached to the map was a key, showing that was h. m. kriss. it shows, however, that you were standing, at the time of the shooting, in the north part, i suppose it would be, on the main street ramp? mr. kriss. no. mr. hubert. and i notice that your statement says it was different. mr. kriss. no; i wasn't. mr. hubert. even so, to clarify that, i would like you to see what this is so you can see what i am talking about. see your number on this key. this ? mr. kriss. ; yes. mr. hubert. now, when you get to this map--see on the main street ramp? mr. kriss. that is the main street ramp. that is where i was after--it was--that is where i placed myself when they said, "don't let anyone out of the basement." mr. hubert. all right. that will clarify it then. mr. kriss. you can see it on television. i saw it the other night again where i ran across and when they said, "don't let anyone out of the basement," that is where i placed myself. mr. hubert. i think that is going to explain that, and in order to make it a matter of record, i am going to ask you to show your position before the shooting, and your position after the shooting on this map, but first let me identify this map by marking it, "dallas, tex., march , , exhibit no. , deposition of h. m. kriss." i am signing my name to it, and i will ask you for the purposes of identification so that the record will show that we are both talking about the same document, to put your name right there. now, i would like you to look over there at the mockup. and on the mockup, determine where you were. mr. kriss. that is main street--i was right here [indicating]. mr. hubert. now, let's see if we can find that on the map and mark it. it would be right here, wouldn't it? mr. kriss. no; right over here [indicating]. wouldn't it? no, here is the--wait a minute. wait a minute. mr. hubert. now, we get at this---- mr. kriss. this is main---- mr. hubert. and this is commerce street. mr. kriss. right. that is the jail right---- mr. hubert. yes. mr. kriss. here is the position right here [indicating]. mr. hubert. on the commerce street like that? i am drawing a circle---- mr. kriss. right. mr. hubert. and i am drawing the line out then and i am putting, "position of h. m. kriss." mr. kriss. the four---- mr. hubert. prior to the shooting? mr. kriss. that's right. mr. hubert. now, i noticed on the large map that was attached to the dallas report that--and to the key to the personnel, your number was , and that they had in the position i am now marking in a circle. can you tell me what the explanation of that is, sir? mr. kriss. that is confusing, because after the shooting they hollered, "don't let anyone out of the basement." and i saw the truck over here, so i ran over here and placed myself right here. mr. hubert. where this circle is. mr. kriss. yes, right; that is where i placed myself. mr. hubert. in other words, you are at this position, but it was after the shooting instead of before? mr. kriss. after the shooting. mr. hubert. so, i am placing a circle of your position. mr. kriss. after the shooting. mr. hubert. and drawing a line from it and writing "position of h. m. kriss after the shooting." mr. kriss. yes. mr. hubert. right. mr. kriss. right. mr. hubert. now, about how long had you been in the position you were in before the shooting and until the shooting? mr. kriss. well, we had been kind of walking over here watching the door over---- mr. hubert. when you say "over here"---- mr. kriss. in the garage area. i had already put some men out here on both sides. mr. hubert. you had already put some men out here on both sides? out on the commerce street side? mr. kriss. yes, sir; and on the main. mr. hubert. and on the main street side. mr. kriss. and we were told by the officers to move all the press back over this way, keep them on this side [indicating]. mr. hubert. now, you see, you have to explain what you mean by "this side," because---- mr. kriss. well, that is---- mr. hubert. because someone reading a transcript of it later won't be able to tell. mr. kriss. that is the west side then. mr. hubert. west side of the ramp, is that correct? mr. kriss. that's right. mr. hubert. do i understand you to say that you had been instructed to keep all the press---- mr. kriss. yes, go ahead. mr. hubert. out of the ramp area? mr. kriss. yes; against the west wall only, all the rail--the area in here, to keep the press back over here and [indicating]---- mr. hubert. against the rail, or on the side? mr. kriss. no; against the rail. if i just leave through--they were trying to clear this up right in here. mr. hubert. how long had you been in the position that we have marked "position prior to shooting"? mr. kriss. possibly minutes. mr. hubert. ten or fifteen minutes? mr. kriss. something along there. prior to that time, is when i had been walking right back in here [indicating]. yes; and standing, i believe standing right over in here is where i placed myself. mr. hubert. all right. i will put another circle and i am going to mark that "position of h. m. kriss prior"---- mr. kriss. "to---- mr. hubert. "shooting." mr. kriss. before being told to move the press on this side. mr. hubert. "position of h. m. kriss prior"-- now, we have not--this is the west side. that is the east side--"of being told to keep the press back." in other words, your first position was really the position---- mr. kriss. right here. that is it. mr. hubert. well, let's put a number--no. " " in it. that was your first position? mr. kriss. that's right. mr. hubert. and your second position---- mr. kriss. no. " ." mr. hubert. as no. " ." "position of h. m. kriss prior to shooting." and no. " " is your position after the shooting? right? mr. kriss. that's it; sir. mr. hubert. now, you say that you had been in position no. " " for about minutes or so before they brought oswald down? mr. kriss. yes. mr. hubert. which way were you facing then? mr. kriss. this way [indicating]. mr. hubert. facing north? mr. kriss. facing north; yes. mr. hubert. could you see anything up there? mr. kriss. no; all i saw was officers standing right at the head of this--this officer right there. with a shotgun. mr. hubert. do you know who he was? mr. kriss. no, sir; i don't. mr. hubert. but he is a regular? mr. kriss. no reserves were armed. we are all unarmed. unarmed and we don't carry arms. mr. hubert. now, in looking from your position no. " ." up the ramp, were there--can you tell us whether there were a lot of people standing in that area? mr. kriss. no; i didn't. i was just--had lots of people right in this area, right about here [indicating]. mr. hubert. you were talking about that northeast position? mr. kriss. yes, sir; all this area right in here [indicating]. mr. hubert. and where the down ramp going---- mr. kriss. all this area right on this side. that is where they were all standing. mr. hubert. well, you can't say "this side," sir. while i understand it---- mr. kriss. the east side. the east side, excuse me. the east side. i keep forgetting she's taking it down. mr. hubert. they were all standing up against the rail? mr. kriss. yes, sir. mr. hubert. right by the television cameras. mr. kriss. right. mr. hubert. is that correct? mr. kriss. right; that's right. mr. hubert. and then the ramp going from the basement down into the parking area? mr. kriss. yes; right. mr. hubert. and further along toward commerce street along that rail? mr. kriss. yes; there was a truck there, large truck here and another car pulled up right behind the armored truck. mr. hubert. both on the commerce street side? mr. kriss. yes. mr. hubert. directing your attention again to whether there were a great number of people in an area that i am now marking with an oblong and going to call it "area a," and---- mr. kriss. that area there? mr. hubert. well---- mr. kriss. well, i couldn't be for sure, but it seemed that large amount people all around there and in here, too. mr. hubert. did you notice an automobile being driven out of there just a few seconds or minutes---- mr. kriss. i can't recall that. i have tried to remember that and i can't recall that. no; i can't recall that. mr. hubert. you don't recall it? mr. kriss. no; i can remember something vaguely. i can remember doing something--they were moving a car, but i was mostly interested in watching the press, keeping everyone here. that was my job, keeping everyone on the east side of the rail. mr. hubert. i understand, and you were looking more at the press than at the main street ramp? mr. kriss. that's correct; that's correct. mr. hubert. did you see this man when he came down? mr. kriss. no; i didn't see--all i saw was just a blur right in here [indicating]. i didn't see--i was like everyone else, i was waiting here, and oswald was right here [indicating], and that is where i looked at oswald, and i was a curiosity seeker, i think, when i should have been watching--i was--learned my lesson. mr. hubert. well---- mr. kriss. like everyone else, everyone else was watching that. mr. hubert. so, your attention was on oswald? mr. kriss. right. mr. hubert. and you saw a blur? mr. kriss. yes. mr. hubert. did you recognize the man at all? mr. kriss. right then? no. mr. hubert. had you known ruby? mr. kriss. known, of him, saw him before in the papers and everything. mr. hubert. what did you do after that? mr. kriss. well, they said--somebody said, "don't let anyone out of the basement." and i ran across here and i thought i saw one of the captains, arnett, and i saw him going down, and he was in the confusion and in that confusion here, and ran over there and saw that everything was all right, and they said, "don't let anyone out." mr. hubert. and you positioned yourself right in the middle? mr. kriss. positioned myself in the middle and no one passed thereafter. that i can assure you of. that is the only thing i do know for sure. mr. hubert. all right. let me see if there's anything else. all right. is there anything else you would like to add that is not contained in the statement, or in your testimony today? mr. kriss. no, sir; i just don't know a thing. mr. hubert. all right for now. have you ever been interviewed by any member of the commission's staff prior to today? mr. kriss. no; only the fbi is all. mr. hubert. and you have never been interviewed by me prior to this deposition today? mr. kriss. no. mr. hubert. all right, sir. i think that is all and i certainly thank you very much. testimony of roy lee lowery the testimony of roy lee lowery was taken at a.m., on march , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. leon d. hubert, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. hubert. this is the deposition of detective r. l. lowery, dallas police department. mr. lowery, my name is leon d. hubert. i am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy. under the provisions of the executive order no. , dated november , , a joint resolution of congress no. , and the rules of procedure adopted by the commission in conformance with the executive order in the joint resolution, i have been authorized to take the sworn deposition from you, mr. lowery. i state to you now that the general nature of the commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of president kennedy and the subsequent violent death of lee harvey oswald. in particular, mr. lowery, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the death and the general inquiry. now, mr. lowery, you have appeared here today by virtue of a request made to chief curry by mr. j. lee rankin, who is the general counsel on the staff of the president's commission. under the rules adopted by the commission, you are entitled to a -day written notice by the commission prior to the taking of this deposition, but the rules adopted by the commission also provide that a witness may waive that -day notice if he wishes to do so. do you wish to waive the -day notice? mr. lowery. i will waive it. mr. hubert. will you raise your right hand. do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. lowery. i do. mr. hubert. will you please state your name? mr. lowery. roy lee lowery. mr. hubert. and your age? mr. lowery. thirty-two years of age. mr. hubert. your residence? mr. lowery. west church in grand prairie. mr. hubert. texas? mr. lowery. right. mr. hubert. is that just outside of the dallas area? mr. lowery. yes, sir; it is in dallas county. it is on the west side. mr. hubert. what is your occupation, sir? mr. lowery. i am a detective with the dallas police department. mr. hubert. how long have you been so occupied? mr. lowery. oh, approximately - / years. mr. hubert. what specific position do you hold in the detective department? mr. lowery. i'm a detective in the juvenile bureau of the police department, criminal division. mr. hubert. who is your immediate superior? mr. lowery. capt. frank martin. mr. hubert. who is next up the line? mr. lowery. i believe it is m. w. stevenson. mr. hubert. and then chief batchelor and chief curry? mr. lowery. right. mr. hubert. now, i think you have read---- mr. lowery. now, if you will start with mr. bookhout's---- mr. hubert. let me get this report in. mr. lowery. all right. mr. hubert. i think you have read three documents which i have previously handed you to read, and i want to mark the three of them now for identification, and then we will talk about each one. mr. lowery. all right. mr. hubert. i am marking a letter, or a copy of a letter consisting of one page, addressed to chief curry, dated november , , indicating that the original may be signed by you, and i am identifying it as follows, by marking upon it, "dallas, tex., march , . exhibit no. . deposition of r. l. lowery, and signing my name below it." as to the second document, consisting of two pages, and purporting to be a report of an interview by--of you by fbi agent bookhout, on november , , and i am marking that document along the right margin as follows: "dallas, tex., march , . exhibit . deposition of r. l. lowery." i am signing my name below that on the first page of that document, and placing my initials in the right-hand lower corner on the second page of that document. finally a document purporting to be a report of an interview of you by fbi agents smith and chapoton, on december , , consisting of five pages, marking the first page as follows, to wit: "dallas, tex., march , . exhibit no. , deposition of r. l. lowery," and i am signing my name on the first page, and placing my initials in the lower right-hand corner on the second page, third page, fourth page and the fifth page. now, sir, i hand you the exhibit which has been marked , being the letter to chief curry, and ask you if that letter is correct insofar as it goes? or do you have any other comments to make about it? mr. lowery. this is correct. mr. hubert. now, i hand you an exhibit identified as , consisting of two pages, and ask you if you have read it, and whether you have any comments to make about it? mr. lowery. yes, sir; i read it. now, as to this one there is some changes to be made. mr. hubert. all right. now, i suggest you do this. if you want to make a change in a sentence, read that sentence indicating that you are beginning to read by using the word "quote", and when you get to the end of the sentence, "unquote". then make your comment about the sentence, or if you have the whole paragraph you may do it that way. mr. lowery. well, first one, quote lowery---- mr. hubert. that is on the first page, is it not? what paragraph? mr. lowery. first page, first paragraph interview by mr. bookhout of the fbi. mr. hubert. you are going to start reading, so say "quote". mr. lowery. quote, "lowery stated he and several others grabbed ruby," unquote. now, i didn't--i didn't grab ruby. several other officers did. i didn't touch ruby at all at that time. mr. hubert. did you tell this man---- mr. lowery. no, sir; i didn't. mr. hubert. that is incorrect? mr. lowery. i do not recall--no, i touched ruby later, but not at this particular time. this is the time where ruby was disarmed and taken into the jail office. i didn't touch him at all at that particular time. there were several other officers around him. i couldn't even get to him. mr. hubert. when did you touch him? mr. lowery. he was carried into the jail office by several officers, and after coming into the jail office by myself, i held one of jack ruby's legs while he was given a quick shakedown before he was taken upstairs. mr. hubert. all right. have you any other comments to make about that exhibit ? mr. lowery. i don't believe that there is any others on this one. yes. on page , of this same exhibit--let's see, where could i start. now, would you like me to start in the middle of a sentence, or just read the whole sentence even though it is several lines? mr. hubert. perhaps you'd better read the whole sentence, i think it will be clearer. mr. lowery. all right, quote "he stated this camera was never put into operation, the cable was never connected and the blank cap was never taken off. lowery stated that the following--that following the shooting, the action of the two cameramen who had pushed the camera from the area was brought to the attention of lt. r. e. swain, and they were taken to homicide and robbery bureau for questioning." unquote. the facts are, are that the cameramen were not taken to homicide and robbery bureau. i accompanied those men up on the third floor where they were allowed to set up their long range camera, and i stayed with those people for approximately an hour to an hour and a half until i contacted lieutenant baker in the homicide division and told him the reason that i was with those people, and he advised me to take their names and addresses, business address and business phone, and home phone number, and that it wouldn't be necessary to stay with them any longer. i took this information and turned it in to lieutenant baker and released the cameramen. mr. hubert. anything else you wish to say about it? mr. lowery. i don't believe there is any other. mr. hubert. . anything other about ? mr. lowery. no, that is--nothing further. mr. hubert. as to exhibit , i ask you if it is correct, do you have any changes or suggestions, or comments to make about it? mr. lowery. on page , paragraph --let's see, "the contingent from the juvenile bureau consisted of captain martin, lt. george butler, detective w. j. cutchshaw, detective l. b. miller, detective charles goolsby, patrolman w. j. harrison and myself, lowery." the facts are that captain martin, lt. george butler, detective w. j. cutchshaw, detective l. b. miller, detective charles goolsby went from the third--juvenile bureau, on the third floor, room , city hall, down the elevator to the basement of the city hall. as we came off the elevator we met patrolman w. j. harrison coming up the hall from the police locker room, and he accompanied us to the location in the basement where oswald was shot. mr. hubert. when you say, "city hall," you mean the police department building, not the municipal building? mr. lowery. no, sir. police and courts building. mr. hubert. all right, any further comments about exhibit ? mr. lowery. now, i have one change here. mr. hubert. on what page? mr. lowery. on page , paragraph . now, this is the only thing, the only change is--i don't know whether it is necessary for me to read the whole thing--is the tv station wpab. in this report it says, "wpab". mr. hubert. it is a typographical---- mr. lowery. it is wrong. mr. hubert. yes, that's correct, and now, i don't think we have to do anything more about it. mr. lowery. all right. then, on page in--let's see, this page , paragraph , and this will carry on to paragraph of page . all right. "this police car had its red lights on, flashing, and there were two or three officers in the car." that is a mistake. the facts are is this police car was a marked squad car, occupied by one officer, and that officer was officer o'dell, who is a patrolman, and as far as i can say, he was alone in the car. only person in the car. all right. on page , this also is in paragraph . "he did not know who this individual was until his hat fell off in the melee and he saw it was jack ruby whom he has known for several years." the facts are that at approximately the same instant the shot was fired, or within a fraction of a second thereafter, i did recognize the person firing the shot as being jack ruby. mr. hubert. the correction there being that you recognized him before his hat fell off, is that what you mean? mr. lowery. well, i couldn't definitely say that i recognized him before his hat fell off. i don't---- mr. hubert. did you recognize him before he fired the shot? mr. lowery. well, it seemed like to me at the same time. now, of course, this happened directly in front of me, closer than--about half of the distance between the two of us and---- mr. hubert. let the record show that the witness indicates the distance that i would judge to be approximately feet. mr. lowery. well, he would be within feet, i think. that jack ruby would be within feet of me. mr. hubert. would you say that the distance that i judge is feet, you think is about two-thirds of that distance? mr. lowery. that's right. three to feet, and i couldn't say that jack ruby's hat--i couldn't say whether the hat had fallen off or not. mr. hubert. all right. all right. now, you have looked over the other pages of , and handed it back to me, are there any corrections or deletions or--wrong statements or anything that you would like to comment upon? mr. lowery. best i can remember the rest of it is fairly accurate. mr. hubert. now, i want to have you identify a chart of the basement area of the dallas police department and i am marking upon it for the purposes of identification the words, "dallas, tex., march , . exhibit number , deposition of r. l. lowery." and i am signing my name below that, and just for the purposes of identification, i wish you would sign your name below it, too, below my name. i would like you to look at the mockup here and--if you will come over here with me, we can put the chart and the mockup together, and i would like you to--by using the mockup, point to the place on the mockup where you were standing and then we will mark it on the map. mr. lowery. all right. i was standing exactly at this point here [indicating]. in fact, the corner--i was leaning back against the corner, and i could feel it exactly between my shoulder blades. mr. hubert. all right. now, i am marking a circle right here as the point that you are talking about? mr. lowery. yes, sir; and that would be on the southwest corner. mr. hubert. southwest corner of the intersection of the jail corridor and the ramp? mr. lowery. yes, sir. mr. hubert. i am marking a circle around the position you have indicated and i am writing the words, "position of r. l. lowery at the time of the shooting," which i am also placing in a circle. now, is that correct, sir? that was your position? mr. lowery. yes. mr. hubert. now, how long had you been in that position prior to the shooting? mr. lowery. well, i couldn't definitely say how long i had been at that one particular position. i had been in this area for, oh, from approximately minutes. i had been within a few feet of there. i just took this position a few minutes, and--or maybe a couple of minutes before the shooting actually took place, but i was standing within a few feet of that point. mr. hubert. at the moment of the shooting, you were in precisely that position? mr. lowery. yes. mr. hubert. and you would judge you had been in that position about minutes? mr. lowery. i don't believe it would be any more than minutes' time. i don't know. mr. hubert. you were facing then in the general direction of the tv cameras? mr. lowery. well, when the actual shooting took place. mr. hubert. and the time before that? i want to get both? mr. lowery. well, i looked both ways, both left and right. mr. hubert. i'll ask you if you scanned the crowd? mr. lowery. well, in the direction of the tv cameras, the lights were so bright i couldn't have seen any people in the crowd. i could see forms, but i couldn't--i wouldn't be able to---- mr. hubert. do you know a detective, w. j. harrison, i think he is called "blackie" harrison? mr. lowery. yes, sir. mr. hubert. was he in your line of vision? mr. lowery. yes, sir. mr. hubert. could you see him? mr. lowery. i saw him shortly before the shooting. now, at the time all the tv lights and everything were turned on, i don't recall seeing "blackie" from that time until the shot was actually fired. mr. hubert. i wonder if you would use the mockup first to place the position, approximately, of harrison, the last time you were able to see him, and then translate that by placing a circle on the map that---- mr. lowery. let me get squared away here. he would have been in this general area. i couldn't say in relation to this wall--to this guardrail. i would think they would have been approximately---- mr. hubert. well, i am going to mark a line, which i am labeling as line "a, b," and then i want to ask you to take the pen and put the approximate position of harrison the last time you saw him. mr. lowery. well, i would say about this [indicating]. mr. hubert. now, you have made an "x," and i am putting a circle about the "x," and drawing a line out and writing the following, "position of w. j. harrison--" the approximate position, is that what you mean? mr. lowery. right. mr. hubert. "the approximate position of w. j. harrison when last seen by lowery." mr. lowery. before---- mr. hubert. "before the shooting." right? mr. lowery. right. mr. hubert. i am encircling that language and connecting it with the position marked "x." now, can you give us any estimation of how long before the shooting was the last time that you saw harrison? mr. lowery. no, sir; i wouldn't make an attempt, because the time in my estimation i found that they were so far off that i couldn't--i just don't have any idea. it couldn't have been more than a couple of minutes. mr. hubert. all right; you did not see him after that, though, did you? mr. lowery. i saw him after the shooting. mr. hubert. no; i mean after that position? mr. lowery. as far as i remember, no, sir; i don't. mr. hubert. then you attribute your failure to see him to the fact that the tv lights had been turned on after that? mr. lowery. well, the tv lights were so bright. i don't remember seeing harrison, but i don't say that i was completely blinded by the tv lights. mr. hubert. did you see ruby come up from the crowd? mr. lowery. sir? mr. hubert. did you see ruby come out from the crowd? mr. lowery. the first time i saw ruby he was lunging, and almost instantaneously the shot was fired, and i couldn't--i couldn't say that i saw him come from the crowd. i saw a blur, and about this time the shot was fired, and there is jack ruby right in front of me. mr. hubert. what side of "blackie" harrison did ruby come from with relation to harrison himself? mr. lowery. i couldn't say which side that---- mr. hubert. you don't know whether it was on harrison's left side or right side? mr. lowery. no, sir. mr. hubert. do you remember the automobile that went up the ramp just before the shooting that had a flashing red light on top of it and two or three officers in the car? mr. lowery. well, now, that is one of the statements we changed. i remember the marked squad car being driven with officer o'dell going up the--oh, we call it the north ramp, the wrong way, which--with his red lights on, but this car only had the one officer in it, the best i remember. mr. hubert. do you know rio pierce? mr. lowery. yes, sir. mr. hubert. did you see him drive a car up that ramp? mr. lowery. i will say that between the time that officer o'dell went up the north ramp, i couldn't tell you in minutes or seconds how much time had elapsed, but there was a plain car, and i believe it was driven by lieutenant pierce, and he had a couple or three other officers. i couldn't say exactly how many officers were in the car, but it did go up the ramp with red lights on going up the north ramp to the main street entrance. mr. hubert. that was after o'dell had passed? mr. lowery. yes, sir; best i remember. mr. hubert. so, that the statement--i would ask you to have another look at the statement, which is exhibit , and ask you if it is the statement that you previously corrected so that it would refer to o'dell. isn't it, in fact, correct insofar as it would deal with what you have just said about pierce? mr. lowery. now, here is the statement we changed. mr. hubert. i see your point, and that is that the o'dell car did not have a red light on it? mr. lowery. yes, sir, it did, but the o'dell was--the o'dell car was a marked squad car, and that was the change that we made. this o'dell's car was the first car to go up the ramp, and he was--there was only one person in the car. mr. hubert. but, then, there was another marked car---- mr. lowery. there was an unmarked car. mr. hubert. there was an unmarked car, and that is pierce? mr. lowery. pierce was the unmarked car, and he had another officer in the car. i couldn't tell you who, or how many, or who they were. mr. hubert. what was the time interval between the o'dell car movements up that ramp and pierce's movements up that ramp? mr. lowery. i couldn't--i couldn't--i'd be afraid to say exactly, but probably wasn't more than a minute in that. mr. hubert. did you follow the car, or the pierce car up the ramp with your eyes, i mean? mr. lowery. no, sir; if you will notice this [indicating] there is an offset here, and from my position here i would only see a short distance up the ramp, and there is also a drop down, air-conditioning and central-heating unit back in here that i would--if my view hadn't been obstructed by the line of people on that side i wouldn't have been able to see more than a few feet up the ramp. mr. hubert. did you see anybody coming down? i understand from your statement that you could not have seen their faces as they came down the ramp because of the obstruction, but you could have seen feet, couldn't you? mr. lowery. i wouldn't be able to. i didn't see anybody come down the ramp. they could have possibly gotten down there without me seeing them, but i didn't see any feet, or any person come down the ramp at all. mr. hubert. did you see anybody climb over the rails from the parking area into the ramp on the main street side? mr. lowery. no, sir; not that i remember. i couldn't see--couldn't see the rail from my position for the line of photographers and officers and the tv cameras and lights. mr. hubert. did you have occasion to talk to ruby thereafter? mr. lowery. no, sir. mr. hubert. did you see him after that? mr. lowery. which point? mr. hubert. after the shooting? mr. lowery. well, as i told you, the officers took him into the jail office, and i went into the jail office, and they were in the process of searching him, and he was struggling, and i held one--i believe his left leg. had him down on his back, and i held his left leg while he was doing a quick shakedown and then he was taken to the elevator and upstairs, and that is the last that i saw of him. mr. hubert. all right. detective lowery, have you anything else that you would like to add that you have not stated, or is not contained in these several exhibits we have identified here today? mr. lowery. well, i think they--i haven't been through the police report, the investigation in the police department made by captain jones. i believe that they had--a little more in detail. mr. hubert. you are referring, i think, to a document contained in commission's report -a, that is page , consisting of two pages and entitled, "investigation of operational security involving the transfer of lee harvey oswald, november , ," which was supplied to the commission by the dallas police department through the attorney general. since i do not have an extra copy of this document, i am going to allow it to remain in the volume, but i am going to mark it for identification as i have marked the others, and that is, "dallas, texas, march , , exhibit number ," which purports to be an interview of you. now wait--i'll finish the identification, , deposition of r. l. lowery, signing my name on the first sheet and placing my initials in the lower right-hand corner on the second sheet. this is an interview of r. l. lowery, november , , by lt. p. g. mccaghren and lt. c. c. wallace. i think you have read this document, have you not, sir? mr. lowery. let me brush through it right quick. i don't---- mr. hubert. all right. referring to exhibit , do you now say that it is correct? are there any changes you want to suggest, modifications to make? mr. lowery. it is correct, as far as i know. mr. hubert. all right. anything else you want to say? mr. lowery. no, sir; i believe that's---- mr. hubert. now, have you been interviewed prior to the taking of the deposition by any member of the commission? i don't think there was any interview between you and me before. mr. lowery. no, sir. mr. hubert. all right, sir. thank you very much. testimony of capt. frank m. martin the testimony of capt. frank martin was taken at p.m., on march , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. leon d. hubert, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. hubert. this is the deposition of capt. frank m. martin of the juvenile division, dallas police department. captain martin, my name is leon d. hubert. i am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy. under the provisions of executive order no. , dated november , , the joint resolution of congress no. , and the rules of procedure adopted by the commission in conformance with the executive order and the joint resolution, i have been authorized by the commission to take the sworn deposition of you, captain martin. captain martin. uh-huh. mr. hubert. i state to you that the general nature of the commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of president kennedy and the subsequent violent death of lee harvey oswald. in particular to you, captain martin, the nature of the inquiry is to determine what facts you know about the death of oswald and any other pertinent facts that you may know about the general inquiry. captain martin. uh-huh. mr. hubert. no; captain martin, do--you have appeared here by virtue of a general request made by the general counsel on the staff of the president's commission, mr. j. lee rankin, to chief curry. under the rules adopted by the commission, you are entitled to a -day written notice prior to the taking of this deposition, that the rules adopted by the commission also provide that a witness may waive the -day written notice. do you wish to waive that notice? captain martin. yes. mr. hubert. now, will you rise and raise your right hand and i will now swear you. do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? captain martin. i do. mr. hubert. state your full name, captain martin. captain martin. frank m. martin. mr. hubert. your age, please? captain martin. fifty-four. mr. hubert. where do you live? captain martin. west five mile parkway. mr. hubert. what is your occupation today, and how long have you been in that occupation? captain martin. i am a police officer in dallas. i have been in it for years. mr. hubert. your rank is what now? captain martin. captain. mr. hubert. how long have you held the rank of captain, sir? captain martin. since , about years. mr. hubert. what are your particular duties with the dallas police department? captain martin. i have charge of the juvenile bureau. we handle all juvenile affairs. mr. hubert. now, captain, i have two documents here which i am going to mark for identification and then i will question you concerning them. now, i am marking this document march , , addressed to chief j. e. curry, the original of which apparently was signed by you. marking this as follows, to wit: "dallas, texas, march , . exhibit no. , deposition of capt. f. m. martin, and i'm signing my name to that document which consists of one page, and i'm also marking another document which apparently is the report of an interview of you, captain martin, by special agents of the fbi, to wit: alvin j. zimmerman and joseph g. peden, on december nd, ." the document consists of one full page, marking the first page as follows, to wit: "dallas, texas, march , . exhibit . deposition of f. m. martin." signing my name on that. i am placing my initials on the second page of that document in the lower right-hand corner. now, captain, i believe that you have only recently, that is to say, about or hours ago, had occasion to read both of these documents? captain martin. yes. mr. hubert. and . i now ask you if those documents represent the truth, or whether there are any modifications or deletions or additions---- captain martin. well, of course, there---- mr. hubert. that you would like to make in it? captain martin. this "miller," they have there once, where it should be my name in the first paragraph. mr. hubert. i think you are speaking of the third line, the first page of exhibit , where the second sentence starts, "capt. miller," and apparently the sense of it would be, that since they are speaking of you, it would be "capt. martin," is that right? captain martin. that's right. mr. hubert. i am, therefore, going to circle the word "miller," and--with a circle, and an extension line indicates that it had been changed by putting my initial on it, and i am going to ask you at a later time to put your initials on it, too. captain martin. all right. mr. hubert. other than that, that document speaks the truth, as far as you know? captain martin. yes. there is one area in there in the ramps that i don't quite understand. did he mean the ramp, or does he mean the door into the building, the corridor door or---- mr. hubert. now, then, i think you are speaking of the second to the last sentence in the last paragraph on the first page of exhibit , sentence which reads as follows, to wit: "he advised that auxiliary officers were stationed at each ramp." captain martin. right. mr. hubert. "and that to his north, this was the only entrance to the compound which ruby could have used." now, what is it that you would like to say about that, sir? captain martin. there is a double door going into this basement at the city hall which i wouldn't consider a ramp. they never considered it that. i don't know, but it is more or less a corridor, or hallway going into the basement. mr. hubert. there is a corridor, you say, that leads from the jail building into the basement area? captain martin. it is from the garage area into the basement. mr. hubert. i see. captain martin. i don't know---- mr. hubert. well, now, did you make any statement to them about auxiliary officers being stationed at any place? captain martin. yes. yes; i told them that there were, but i meant the two ramps coming into the basement from the outside. mr. hubert. i see. in other words, what you want to clarify about this is that what you meant when you made reference to auxiliary officers and ramps, that you meant the entrances or exits at the street level of the main and commerce ramps? captain martin. that's right. mr. hubert. and, you did not have reference to the officers at other passageways? captain martin. that's right. mr. hubert. all right. i might ask you in connection with that same thing, what do you mean by the word "compound"? captain martin. i didn't use that. mr. hubert. didn't use that word? captain martin. no; that must be theirs. mr. hubert. what do you understand there, because the report is that you said "that this was the only entrance into the compound which ruby could have used"? captain martin. i didn't use that word. mr. hubert. well, did you express any such thought and if so, what were you referring to? captain martin. of course, what they are referring to by "compound," is the area right outside the jail door there. mr. hubert. you mean what is commonly called the basement area including the parking area, the garage area, the two ramps and the space between the two ramps? captain martin. i am sure it is, because i didn't use the word "compound." mr. hubert. let's look at it this way, would this statement be correct then if we changed the word "compound," to be defined as the general basement area as i just defined it a moment ago? captain martin. yes. mr. hubert. so, then it would be correct to say that, to your knowledge, the two ramps, to wit, those--the one leading from main street, and the one leading from commerce street were the only entrances to the basement area, as we defined it a moment ago, that ruby could have used? captain martin. more that he could have used, yes; but, of course, you---- mr. hubert. of course, this says the only entrance, and if you wish to qualify it---- captain martin. we were speaking of these two ramps. and we were talking of him coming down into the basement off the street. mr. hubert. yes, sir. captain martin. of course, you have got the city hall. i mean, the police and courts building, and also got the city hall. he could have been--come down the elevator over here [indicating]. mr. hubert. i take it you want to modify this statement then so that your present opinion is that it is not correct to say that the main street and the commerce street entrances were the only mode of entrance to the basement? captain martin. no, no; there are other ways to get in there. mr. hubert. that is what i mean. what other ways are there? captain martin. there is--coming from the police and courts building to the basement, or you can come down the elevator in the city hall into the garage area and come across, but as far as i remember, that wasn't brought up. they were speaking of those two ramps. mr. hubert. well, let me ask you this: was the explanation that we have now put into the record, are you satisfied that this document, , is substantially correct? captain martin. i don't know exactly what he means here by "he knew of no unauthorized persons to be in the basement." i don't know what---- mr. hubert. well, sir; if you wish to modify that in any way so that we now know what you are thinking is about it. i ask you to please do so. captain martin. i don't quite--that is not very clear to me, "he knew of no unauthorized persons permitted to be in the basement." mr. hubert. let me get at it this way. do you know what security precautions were being taken to be sure that unauthorized persons were not in the basement? captain martin. yes; they had men at the top of both of the outside ramps, and i presume that they were supposed to stop anybody coming in, but apparently they didn't. mr. hubert. did you know what was meant by "unauthorized persons"? captain martin. well, there were so many people down there. the press, tv, radio. of course, all had been checked before they came in. i don't know. mr. hubert. did you receive any specific instructions, yourself, as to checking? captain martin. i didn't receive any instructions at all. mr. hubert. did you know, or was there anything told to you whereby you could recognize an unauthorized person? captain martin. nothing was said. of course, if i'd had seen jack ruby, i'd have known him. i've known him for a long time. mr. hubert. did any of the people have identifying badges or anything of that sort? captain martin. no; so far as i know, they didn't. in fact, there was nothing--there was nothing said about who was to be down there and who wasn't. there was nothing said about anything--i didn't know anything about it. mr. hubert. well, when did you come on duty that day, sir? captain martin. that morning, it was my sunday to work, : . mr. hubert. now, did you have anything to do with the planning of the movement of oswald? captain martin. no. mr. hubert. did you have any knowledge as to what the plan was? captain martin. i knew nothing. i just went down there. that's about it. mr. hubert. were you ordered to go down? captain martin. yes. mr. hubert. by whom? captain martin. chief stevenson. mr. hubert. about what time, sir? captain martin. oh, i would say between : and : , somewhere around there. mr. hubert. chief stevenson is your immediate superior? captain martin. yes. mr. hubert. what did he instruct you to do? captain martin. just to go to the basement is all. mr. hubert. did he give you any specific duty to perform? captain martin. no. mr. hubert. when you got there, what time was it? captain martin. i don't recall. it was a few minutes before , i believe. mr. hubert. what did you do? captain martin. well, i just got out there by the ramp and just stood there. mr. hubert. how long did you stand before the actual shooting of oswald? captain martin. i imagine i was down there or minutes. mr. hubert. i'm going to mark a chart. a chart of the basement area, as follows, to wit: "dallas, texas, march , exhibit , deposition of capt. f. m. martin." signing it with my own name. now, i would like to ask you, captain, if you could sign the other three documents just below my name, that is to say, and . please initial a second page of , below my initial and then sign . i will ask you to sign for the purposes of identification under my name the document . now, captain, it may be that you will want to look at this mockup here of the basement area, and then we will enter it on the map, but if you could show us where you stood on the mockup here, from the time you got down there at about , i think, until oswald was shot, and you say you did not move around? captain martin. i wasn't in one spot all this time, but when he came out, of course, there was a car sitting right--i guess the back end of the car was coming to about here [indicating]. mr. hubert. all right, now, you are showing the back end of the car, and i am going to, with a pen draw in on exhibit , the approximate position of the back end of the car as you demonstrated it. captain martin. be about right there [indicating]. no; not that far. about right here. mr. hubert. about like so? captain martin. uh-huh. mr. hubert. now, i have drawn on the map a rough image of a car, by using simply a square, and i have marked it "car". now, would you take the pen, sir, and--your own pen, and mark by the use of a circle your position with reference to the car at the time of the shooting. now, let's get that. captain martin. i was about right here [indicating]. mr. hubert. now, would you just write in your own handwriting there, "the position of f. m. martin at the time of the shooting." now, captain, you think you--you said you had been in that general basement area for about minutes prior to the shooting? captain martin. i would say that. i don't know for sure. mr. hubert. did you see anybody you knew? captain martin. well, most of the press i knew. no one outside of the press that i knew. mr. hubert. you did know jack ruby, i understand? captain martin. yes; i knew jack. mr. hubert. and i think, that is already in report? captain martin. yes; it is in here. mr. hubert. did you see him? captain martin. not until after the shooting. mr. hubert. were you looking at any time in the direction where you subsequently learned or believed he came from? captain martin. no; not directly. of course--where is your map? i couldn't have seen him from--if i would have been, because there were people all along here [indicating]. mr. hubert. that is to say, to your right, is that right? captain martin. yes; across here [indicating]. and all up in here [indicating]. mr. hubert. there were people between--on your right, between you and---- captain martin. and---- mr. hubert. and the main street ramp? captain martin. right. mr. hubert. how many people were there in that general area? captain martin. i just would have to make an estimate. mr. hubert. that's right. captain martin. i would say between me and where he was, there was or people. mr. hubert. i'm going to mark off an area in the main street ramp by just drawing with a pencil a square, and putting, "area a," in it and i will ask you if you can tell us in the "area a," marked on this map, what were the conditions with respect to the number of people and so forth. not exactly. i know you didn't count heads, but just how crowded were the conditions? captain martin. as well as i can remember there weren't too many people up in that--up that far. there were or cars parked in the ramp there. mr. hubert. you mean in the main street ramp? captain martin. now, wait a minute. you have got main street---- mr. hubert. i marked this as "area a," on main street? captain martin. no, no; across this ramp there, there was quite a number of people. mr. hubert. that is in the space i have marked "area a"? captain martin. yes. mr. hubert. roughly how many people? captain martin. oh, i'd say or . mr. hubert. were they standing shoulder to shoulder? captain martin. yes; more or less. mr. hubert. how many ranks deep would you think? captain martin. i don't know. mr. hubert. well, would you regard it as a crowd? captain martin. yes; i would. mostly the press. there were some officers in that area also. mr. hubert. i think this officer harrison was---- captain martin. yes. mr. hubert. did you see him? captain martin. yes, yes; he--he is one of my men. he was standing, oh, just about at the edge of the ramp there. mr. hubert. would you mark on the map by the use of a circle where you think harrison was at the time? captain martin. harrison was about right here [indicating]. mr. hubert. that is at the time of the shooting? captain martin. yes; uh-huh. mr. hubert. would you just extend this with a little line and then write out, "position of"--what are his initials? w. j.? captain martin. w. j. mr. hubert. now, captain martin, let me see if i can get something clear. was detective harrison in front of oswald, or to one or the other sides of him? captain martin. this happened so fast it is really hard to tell. of course, oswald and the two officers came out this door. mr. hubert. that is the jail door? captain martin. yes. mr. hubert. when they got just about, oh, or feet from harrison, there was a movement over here [indicating]. i couldn't tell what it was. i could tell there was a movement. mr. hubert. by "over here," you mean---- captain martin. on the ramp. mr. hubert. what side of the ramp? the basement--the garage? captain martin. the garage. the garage side. evidently ruby was standing right here [indicating]. mr. hubert. now, when you say "here," you'd better put a mark and put a little arrow to it, your best recollection as to where ruby must have been. you didn't see ruby? captain martin. no, no; this is just supposition. he had to be right in here somewhere. mr. hubert. in other words, just put a mark and a line and indicate where he was. captain martin. i didn't see him, but he had to be right there [indicating]. there is no question about that. mr. hubert. you did see someone come from that position? captain martin. it was a movement. i didn't see anybody, but there was a movement in there that i could detect, and then the shot was fired. mr. hubert. what did you write here? captain martin. "ruby before the shooting." or, "immediately before." mr. hubert. all right, just tell us what you observed? captain martin. well, as soon as the shot was fired, of course, it dumbfounded me, and i tried to get through the people there on my right, to get over there to it, and there was a lot of confusion in there, and i had trouble getting through the press, and when i did get through they had already taken ruby into the jail office and oswald was also in the jail office. ruby was down on the floor just inside the jail, and oswald was lying on the north side of the jail office. mr. hubert. well, now, when oswald first came out of the jail office with graves and leavelle, were you looking at him? captain martin. i saw him come out. now, whether it was--it was shortly after they come out--i saw him after the shot was fired. mr. hubert. you were looking towards him? captain martin. yes; i thought they were coming all around me and go up by me and go up to the armored car, that is what i had in mind. mr. hubert. you were not aware that the plans had been changed so that they--he was going to be taken in a police car, rather than in the armored car? captain martin. no; i didn't know anything about it. mr. hubert. but, did you know anything about the route that was going to be used? captain martin. no, as far as i knew, they were going to put him in the armored truck. that is the reason i was standing there, because i figured they would come right back there and i could go up there with them, but they didn't ever make it. mr. hubert. did you observe what other officers were doing, or in what direction they were looking about the time that oswald came out? captain martin. no; i didn't personally observe it, except on tv later. at the time i didn't notice them. mr. hubert. in other words, at the time that oswald came out, you were looking where--you were looking towards oswald, and if i understand it, you are not in a position to tell us now what other people were doing except what you saw later on television, is that right? captain martin. that's right. mr. hubert. well, now do you have, any comment about what you saw on--later on television? captain martin. well, it seems that all the officers were watching oswald when they should have been watching the crowd. mr. hubert. but, that impression you formed by looking at the television coverage of it? captain martin. yes. mr. hubert. and, you did not form that impression at the time the shot was fired? captain martin. no; i hadn't noticed them then. in fact, i was over where i couldn't see them. mr. hubert. when was the first time that you did recognize ruby as the man who shot oswald? captain martin. when i went in the jail office. mr. hubert. you didn't know it until then? captain martin. no; i saw him on the floor. then i heard somebody say it was jack ruby, and i went in there and saw him. mr. hubert. did he say anything to you? captain martin. no. mr. hubert. did you hear him say anything at all? captain martin. there was so much going on, i don't know whether he said anything or not. first thing i heard was somebody said, "he has been shot." and then there was confusion. i don't know who said that. mr. hubert. did you have occasion to talk to ruby at any time thereafter? captain martin. no, no. mr. hubert. now, captain martin, is there anything else you would like to say concerning any aspect of this matter at all? captain martin. i--don't take this down. mr. hubert. well, if you don't want to say it on the record, you'd better not say it at all. captain martin. there is a lot to be said, but probably be better if i don't say it. mr. hubert. well, i don't know what you mean by---- captain martin. well---- mr. hubert. that it would be better. what we are seeking to find out is the facts on it. captain martin. i understand. mr. hubert. if what you have to say is more or less a matter of opinion, that is one thing. i don't want to ask you to express your opinion, but any facts you know that you think might bear upon this matter, i would ask that you state those facts. captain martin. well, there is not but one thing that i could say about the whole business. of course, we are not experienced in handling this sort of a prisoner. i don't guess anybody is, as far as that goes, but the way i saw it, there was no organization at all. i didn't know who was in charge or anything about it. i don't guess anybody--either people should have been told something--what to do and what to expect. we weren't---- mr. hubert. all right, sir. have you any other facts that you think have any bearing upon---- captain martin. no, no; i don't think so. i think it is more or less in that report there [indicating]. mr. hubert. that is to say, you are talking about the documents you have identified? captain martin. yes. mr. hubert. now, other than the interview that i had with you this morning, have you been interviewed by any member of the commission staff? captain martin. no, no. mr. hubert. now, but i did interview you this morning just prior to lunch, i think at which time we arranged for you to come to have your deposition taken. captain martin. yes. mr. hubert. do you perceive at the present time any inconsistency between the interview with me this morning and your testimony in the deposition this afternoon? captain martin. no, no. it is about the same. mr. hubert. did you state anything, or provide any material, state any facts in the course of the interview this morning which has not been developed in the record this afternoon? captain martin. i don't recall anything. if there is any you can think of, you can ask me and i will bring it out, but i don't recall a thing. mr. hubert. no, sir; i don't. i am just obliged to ask these questions to wrap it up. captain martin. uh-huh. mr. hubert. we certainly thank you, captain martin, and i thank you personally and on behalf of the commission for your cooperation in this matter. if at any time, if you know that there are some other facts that you may have overlooked, please feel completely free to get in touch with us so that we may find out what that fact may be. in other words, it is never too late to reveal a fact which has been omitted as a lapse of memory. captain martin. i don't know of a thing right now. mr. hubert. thank you very much. testimony of billy joe maxey the testimony of billy joe maxey was taken at : p.m., on march , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. leon d. hubert, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. hubert. this is the deposition of--is that billy joe maxey? it is not william? sergeant maxey. no, sir. mr. hubert. billy joe maxey? sergeant maxey. yes, sir. mr. hubert. my name is leon d. hubert. i am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel, mr. j. lee rankin, on the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy. under the provisions of the executive order , dated november , , a joint resolution of congress no. , and the rules and procedures adopted by the commission in conformance with the executive order and the joint resolution, i have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, mr. maxey. i state to you now that the general nature of the commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of president kennedy and the subsequent violent death of lee h. oswald. in particular as to you, mr. maxey, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine the facts you know about the death of oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. mr. maxey, you appeared here by virtue of a general request made by j. lee rankin, general counsel of the staff of the president's commission, and under the rules adopted by the commission for the taking of these depositions, you are entitled to a -day written notice prior to the taking of the deposition. but the rules also provide that a witness may waive this. i now ask if you are willing to waive it? sergeant maxey. yes, sir. mr. hubert. will you raise your right hand. do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? sergeant maxey. i do. mr. hubert. please state your full name. sergeant maxey. billy joe maxey. mr. hubert. and your age? sergeant maxey. thirty-three. mr. hubert. where do you reside, sir? sergeant maxey. freeport drive. mr. hubert. that in dallas? sergeant maxey. yes, sir. mr. hubert. what is your occupation? sergeant maxey. field sergeant, dallas police department. mr. hubert. how long have you been with the police department? sergeant maxey. nine years, and approximately a half. since september th, . mr. hubert. what is your assignment today? sergeant maxey. field sergeant, patrol division. mr. hubert. is that the same assignment that you had during the period of november and , ? sergeant maxey. yes, sir. i was acting lieutenant on that particular day. number . mr. hubert. what does that mean, "number "? sergeant maxey. that is the call from the northeast substation. mr. hubert. did you have any particular orders or functions with respect to the transfer of oswald to the county jail? sergeant maxey. no, sir; not before i arrived at the central station. mr. hubert. what time did you arrive there? sergeant maxey. somewhere in the vicinity of a.m. i am not positive of the exact time. mr. hubert. what sort of an automobile were you driving then? sergeant maxey. a plain car, black model ford. mr. hubert. that is to say, unmarked? sergeant maxey. yes, sir. mr. hubert. where were you coming from? sergeant maxey. northeast substation. mr. hubert. had you been ordered in? sergeant maxey. no, sir. mr. hubert. how did you come to get there then? sergeant maxey. i had some cards to be taken to , where there were requests for off-duty employment, overtime work and i thought perhaps i might be able to assist them. i knew they were going to need all the help they could get down there that day. mr. hubert. you had not been ordered down there? sergeant maxey. no, sir. mr. hubert. what did you do with your car? sergeant maxey. i parked it on the north end of the garage. mr. hubert. then what did you do? sergeant maxey. i approached putnam. they were dispersing some traffic officers or some officers who worked traffic. they weren't in the traffic division, they were patrol officers, and asked him at this time if there was anything i could do, and he said, that if i would wait a few minutes i could probably go hop in sergeant dean's station wagon. i--he didn't elaborate, and i stayed there in the basement there for a few minutes. i don't know exactly how long and lieutenant pierce came down and sergeant putnam spoke to me, and said, "why don't you go with us?" and i approached lieutenant pierce's car and he was in this--he was in his car at this time and asked him if he wanted me to go with him and he said, "yes." mr. hubert. you were in uniform, i take it? sergeant maxey. yes, sir. mr. hubert. so, what happened? sergeant maxey. so, i got into the back seat of lieutenant pierce's car. we started to drive out and sergeant putnam had to move some reporters back. mr. hubert. how many were there? sergeant maxey. i would say in the vicinity of . that is a guess, of course, i have no way of knowing. mr. hubert. that is the main street ramp? sergeant maxey. at the--that was at the bottom of both ramps, down right outside the jail door, and part of the people were blocking the main street ramp where we were going to make a turn and go out. mr. hubert. so, he cleared them out and the car followed behind him? sergeant maxey. yes, sir. mr. hubert. do you know what time it was, about, when he left? sergeant maxey. well, now, at that time, i wasn't noticing the time, but since all this happened---- mr. hubert. well, i don't want you to state what knowledge you have gained since, because we can get at that other ways. sergeant maxey. well, at that time i thought i had been in the basement approximately or minutes. mr. hubert. and you got there at o'clock? sergeant maxey. somewhere in the vicinity. mr. hubert. so, you would think that it would be around : or : ? sergeant maxey. somewhere thereabouts. mr. hubert. all right, where were you seated in the car? sergeant maxey. on the left side in the back seat. that is the left side facing the way the automobile faces. mr. hubert. what did you observe when you got to the top of the ramp? sergeant maxey. the best i can remember when we pulled to the top of the ramp and paused, i was looking across main street. there was a group of people, a bus or something that attracted my attention--whatever it was i--it didn't amount to much. mr. hubert. was that to your left, or to your right? sergeant maxey. that was---- mr. hubert. straight ahead? sergeant maxey. almost straight ahead. mr. hubert. all right, when you got to the top of the ramp, did the car stop? sergeant maxey. i believe there was a momentary hesitation. i don't recall how long. mr. hubert. did you see officer vaughn? sergeant maxey. i didn't pay any attention to him on the way out. now, on the way in, yes. mr. hubert. that is to say when you were coming at o'clock, you saw him? sergeant maxey. yes, sir. i didn't pay any attention to him on the way out, as i say, i was looking across the street. mr. hubert. you don't recall having seen him at all? sergeant maxey. no. mr. hubert. did you look to your right down main street in the direction of pearl? sergeant maxey. i don't believe so. i don't remember if i did. mr. hubert. did you look to your left down main street in the direction of harwood? sergeant maxey. i don't believe so. mr. hubert. in other words, your position is you didn't look either way? sergeant maxey. i don't believe i did. mr. hubert. therefore, you didn't see anybody on either side? sergeant maxey. no. mr. hubert. now, when you got around to the commerce street side had the shooting already taken place? sergeant maxey. yes, sir; i suppose it had, because as we--correction--as the lieutenant backed our car into position in front of the armored car, i heard the dispatcher call an ambulance code , to the basement and officers were rushing around, covering exits to the city hall, so apparently it happened just before we arrived. that had given them time to call the dispatcher by phone for an ambulance, would be my guess that we were on harwood street at the time that it happened. mr. hubert. did you have any further connection with the event? sergeant maxey. we went to parkland. lieutenant pierce, sergeant putnam, and i went to parkland hospital and set up security out there. mr. hubert. did you talk with jack ruby at anytime? sergeant maxey. no, sir. mr. hubert. do you know the man? sergeant maxey. i know him slightly. i know him by sight. mr. hubert. did you see him in the ramp at anytime while you were driving up? sergeant maxey. no, sir. mr. hubert. did you see him at anytime that day at all, at any place? sergeant maxey. no, sir. mr. hubert. well, i am marking now three documents as indicated. this is a document, apparently a letter dated november , , addressed to chief j. e. curry, the original of which is signed by you, and two pages. i am marking the first page, "dallas, texas, exhibit--march , , exhibit , from the deposition of b. j. maxey," and signing my name below that on the first page, and i am putting my initials on the lower right-hand corner of the second page and i'll ask you to be reading that while i mark the second document, which is a report of an fbi interview of december , , taken of you by fbi agents quigley and dallman and i am marking that document, "dallas, texas, march , , exhibit no. . deposition of b. j. maxey." i am signing my name, leon d. hubert underneath, and marking the second page of that document by my initial in the lower right-hand corner. the third document, i am marking in the margin, right-hand margin, "dallas, texas, march , . exhibit . deposition of b. j. maxey," and signing my name leon d. hubert, jr. i am marking the second page of that document with my initials in the lower right-hand corner, and the third page with my initials in the lower right-hand corner. i will ask you to read these two documents likewise, and i wish to ask you some questions about them. sergeant maxey. as far as the report here written to the chief, i would say that it is accurate at the time that i wrote it, and i am willing to sign it as is, and i--what page was it you wanted me to sign here? mr. hubert. just under my name. sergeant maxey. all right. mr. hubert. initial the second page. sergeant maxey. all right. mr. hubert. all right, now, you can turn to the next exhibit, which is---- sergeant maxey. the fbi report. there are two of them there. i believe both of them are the same, aren't they? wait a minute. one of them might possibly be a supplement. mr. hubert. no; they are different. one is on the d of december and the other is on the th, so, you'd better separate them. do you have any comments to make on them? sergeant maxey. one of the things that i was going to bring up here, changes has been made in this one already, this second one. mr. hubert. well, let's see, we are talking about exhibit . sergeant maxey. yes, sir. mr. hubert. what comment do you wish to make? sergeant maxey. in the first report it was stated in there that the fbi report of december , i believe---- mr. hubert. d. sergeant maxey. d? mr. hubert. yes. sergeant maxey. and the report of december , exhibit , it was stated that i saw ex-police officer daniels and shoeshine boy at the end of the main street ramp. that was incorrect. i did not. that was hearsay. i heard that from other officers. i did not see them myself. mr. hubert. and, as a result of that error you then called the fbi and told them you wished to correct that, is that correct? sergeant maxey. no, sir; they came back out there. mr. hubert. they came back out and said what? sergeant maxey. and asked me some more questions regarding the shine boy. they ask me then did i recall the time and i know at the time i talked to them the first time i told them several things that i didn't see myself. mr. hubert. yes. sergeant maxey. i told them things that i had heard and what have you, and i tried to differentiate between what i could actually testify and what i couldn't at this time he was talking to me. mr. hubert. your present recollection is what then? which is correct? sergeant maxey. my present recollection is that i didn't see daniels. i didn't see the shine boy. mr. hubert. and that the information that you did give about seeing daniels and the shine boy in the earlier deposition--i mean the earlier statement to the fbi, which is contained in exhibit was erroneous in that you had not really seen them, but you had heard people talk about them? sergeant maxey. that's right. mr. hubert. now, in all three statements, however, and , and , you stated then that you did see officer vaughn and yet, as i recall your testimony this evening you said that you did not recall having seen vaughn. sergeant maxey. at the present time i don't, but those were written up close to the time all this happened, and i haven't seen one of those reports since, and lots that i don't remember right now that i remembered then, i am sure. mr. hubert. that's correct, and that's why i wanted you to correct this apparently contradictory statement. sergeant maxey. that's true, i understand that. mr. hubert. because, we don't want to have the record, if we can, to have conflicts in it. sergeant maxey. neither do i, i can assure you. mr. hubert. so, your statement is that you can't swear tonight that you saw vaughn there? sergeant maxey. no; i can recollect at the time, how--at the time i was questioned about vaughn, the main thing they wanted to know about him at that time was how far he had walked from his position to the curb. whether he walked to the curb or out into the street which i didn't know. mr. hubert. and right now your mind is blank on vaughn altogether, i take it? sergeant maxey. actually, yes. i wasn't--right now i couldn't say. mr. hubert. now, has anybody asked you to change your statement? sergeant maxey. no, uh-huh, so far as that goes, i haven't. mr. hubert. have you spoken to anybody about it? sergeant maxey. as far as that goes i haven't talked to anybody about the statement. mr. hubert. you have talked to anybody about the possible conflict in your statement? sergeant maxey. uh-uh. mr. hubert. i don't know how that comes out on the machine. i suppose you mean "no" by that. sergeant maxey. no; no. i'd like to say this: that as far as the conflicting statements are concerned, the only reason a person would have for getting together and getting his story straight would be to have something to hide, and i want it known right now i have nothing to hide, and i want it on the record. mr. hubert. yes, sir; it is on the record. this is not an effort to cross you up in any way. sergeant maxey. i realize that. mr. hubert. but, you realize that these statements do exist, and the purpose of this deposition, among other things, is to determine the real facts, and when you run into a conflict like this, unless we ask for explanations we do not get a clear picture. sergeant maxey. that's true. mr. hubert. all right. i want to ask you again if you have any explanation, any other explanation to offer now as to conflicts, or is it just simply your opinion that insofar as vaughn is concerned, your memory was better then than it is now about that event? sergeant maxey. yes; i hadn't thought about it too much one way or the other since then. i will say excluding or days thereafter. mr. hubert. and as to daniels and the colored boy, your statement now is that that was hearsay. you did not, yourself---- sergeant maxey. that was hearsay, and i gave it to him as an--as a hearsay statement. that was a matter of semantics in my opinion. mr. hubert. so that the record can show we are all talking about the same documents, i would like you to sign below my signature and initial the pages of and , with the understanding that this is not an approval by you of these statements at all, but simply as a means of identification that you and i were both talking about the same document. so, i would like you to sign my--just below mine and put your initials on the preceding pages. sergeant maxey. where is your name? mr. hubert. my name is right down here in the margin. just put it right in there. then initial the other pages until you get to the second fbi statement and then sign under my name. in other words, where my name is signed, sign your name. where my initials are, put your initials. sergeant maxey. well, now, there is some more points that i want to bring up. mr. hubert. well, let's do this anyhow, what we are doing. sergeant maxey. all right. mr. hubert. as i say, this is solely for the purposes of the record showing that we are talking about the same pieces of paper. sergeant maxey. all right. mr. hubert. now, you have further corrections or comments you wish to make on these documents? sergeant maxey. yes, sir; perhaps they are of no importance, and perhaps they are, but it is apparently a misunderstanding on the part--matter of semantics, again, and let's see--paragraph , on page , states here that--"a few minutes after that lieutenant pierce entered the garage driving a black car." now, i don't remember him entering the garage. i believe his car was already parked down there. mr. hubert. who is that? sergeant maxey. lieutenant pierce. i don't believe he drove into the police garage from outside. i believe his car was already parked in the basement. mr. hubert. all right. and other comments? sergeant maxey. page , paragraph . mr. hubert. that is still ? sergeant maxey. yes, sir; page , paragraph . that was the correction i advised the fbi office that i did not actually see daniels and the shoeshine boy. that this was something i had overheard other officers talking about, and that has already been taken care of. page , paragraph . this is concerning---- mr. hubert. that is the th paragraph of--actually, the third paragraph, i guess, on that page. sergeant maxey. well, it is part of a paragraph and a full paragraph. mr. hubert. last paragraph on the third---- sergeant maxey. no, sir; next to the last. mr. hubert. oh, second to the last? sergeant maxey. next to the last on the second page. mr. hubert. all right. sergeant maxey. it's concerning jack ruby. "he first met him---- mr. hubert. was that in quotes? you are reading that, aren't you? sergeant maxey. uh-huh. it states here that i first met him about years ago there that--at his place of business, that i had my wife with me. mr. hubert. with you? sergeant maxey. the correction would be that my wife was not with me. mr. hubert. your wife was not with you? sergeant maxey. not at the time i first met him. mr. hubert. so, that the record can be clear on a point, did you ever go there with your wife at some other time? sergeant maxey. not the carousel club. the vegas club; yes. mr. hubert. okay. sergeant maxey. and, let's see. i guess that's about it. mr. hubert. all right, that is to . have you any comments as to ? i think that is the one that contains your explanation on the previous point. sergeant maxey. no; second one is correct. mr. hubert. all right. sergeant maxey. wait a minute. i didn't read this. that's all right. mr. hubert. do you have anything more you want to say? anything you want to add? sergeant maxey. no, sir; that's it. mr. hubert. all right. sergeant maxey. about all of it, those two statements. mr. hubert. i don't believe that there has been any previous interview between you and me? sergeant maxey. no, sir. mr. hubert. or any member of the commission's staff? sergeant maxey. no, sir. mr. hubert. all right, sir; thank you very much. testimony of logan w. mayo the testimony of logan w. mayo was taken at : p.m., on march , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. leon d. hubert, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. hubert. this is the deposition of mr. logan w. mayo. mr. mayo, my name is leon d. hubert. i am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel on the president's commission. under the executive order no. , dated november , , a joint resolution of congress no. , and the rules and procedures adopted by the commission in conformance with the executive order and the joint resolution, i have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, mr. mayo. so, i state to you that the general nature of the commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of president kennedy, and the subsequent violent death of lee harvey oswald. in particular to you, the nature of our inquiry is to determine what the facts are that you know about the death of oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. mr. mayo, you have appeared here tonight by virtue of a general request made by j. lee rankin, general counsel of the staff of the president's commission by a letter written to j. e. curry, chief of police asking him to make his officers, reserve and regular, available to the commission. under the rules adopted by the commission you are entitled to a -day written notice prior to the taking of this deposition, but the rules also provide that the witness may waive this notice if he sees fit to do so. i am asking you if you are willing to waive that -day notice? mr. mayo. yes, sir; i am willing to waive the -day notice and cooperate with you in any way that i can. mr. hubert. will you stand and raise your right hand. do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. mayo. i do. mr. hubert. will you state your full name? mr. mayo. logan w. mayo. mr. hubert. your age? mr. mayo. fifty-six. mr. hubert. your residence? mr. mayo. dallas, tex. mr. hubert. and what is your civilian occupation, sir? mr. mayo. i am an accountant. mr. hubert. how long have you been in that profession, sir? mr. mayo. thirty-five years. mr. hubert. that is your own private business? mr. mayo. no, sir; i am with sears roebuck & company. mr. hubert. i see, and are you in charge of a division or something with that company? mr. mayo. yes. mr. hubert. would you state what it is? mr. mayo. in charge of accounting and the auditing and the accounts payable of the mail order catalog business. mr. hubert. in the dallas---- mr. mayo. dallas region. mr. hubert. how long have you been so employed by sears roebuck? mr. mayo. thirty-five years. mr. hubert. now, you are also, as i understand, a member of the reserve on the dallas police force? mr. mayo. yes, sir. mr. hubert. how long have you been with the reserve? mr. mayo. six years. mr. hubert. now, did you have occasion to be called to duty on november , , the sunday after the president was shot? mr. mayo. yes, sir. mr. hubert. had you been on duty prior to that sunday? mr. mayo. yes, sir. mr. hubert. well, i want to concern ourselves solely with the sunday, right now. mr. mayo. no; not on sunday, not until i was called at o'clock. mr. hubert. yes; at o'clock, you did get a call to come on duty? mr. mayo. yes, sir. mr. hubert. who was it from, do you remember? mr. mayo. i think it was sergeant maxey. mr. hubert. did he ask you to notify any other reservists? mr. mayo. yes. mr. hubert. who were they, do you remember? mr. mayo. he asked me to call the reservists in my squad, which consists of about six, seven people. mr. hubert. you are a lieutenant, aren't you? mr. mayo. i'm a sergeant. mr. hubert. and you did call? mr. mayo. i called the men, but none of them showed up. they had all gone to church, or was fixing to go to church. i contacted a lot of them and they were leaving to go to sunday school and they had other plans and none of them could make it. mr. hubert. do you know a man by the name of holly? mr. mayo. yes, sir. mr. hubert. did you get in touch with him? mr. mayo. i got in touch with him and he said he would come down as soon as he got loose. i didn't see him at the city hall, though. mr. hubert. did you speak to him? mr. mayo. i called him on the phone. mr. hubert. did you tell him what time he should get down there or what time the transfer was going to be? mr. mayo. i told him he should try to be there between and : . mr. hubert. did you tell him what time the transfer was going to be, or that you thought it was going to be, or anything of that sort? mr. mayo. i told him it might be sometime between and noon. i didn't know for sure. mr. hubert. you didn't see him any more after that? mr. mayo. i didn't see him down at the city hall. mr. hubert. what time did you get to the city hall? mr. mayo. i got there about : . mr. hubert. where were you stationed? mr. mayo. i was stationed right here, at commerce street, guarding this entrance to the basement. mr. hubert. let the record show that the witness is pointing to the mockup, and he points to the sidewalk area in front of the commerce street exit---- mr. mayo. that's right. mr. hubert. of the police department. how long did you stay there, sir? mr. mayo. i was there from about : until about : . mr. hubert. you were what---- mr. mayo. then, i left and went---- mr. hubert. what were your duties? mr. mayo. my duty was to guard the entrance to the basement. mr. hubert. when you say "guard," what do you mean? mr. mayo. i was not to permit any people to go in there except maybe the press that had a certified press card. mr. hubert. were you given any description of the kind of cards that you could honor? mr. mayo. i was told that they probably would have a press card with their picture on it and their newspaper. mr. hubert. did you have occasion to refuse entrance to anyone? mr. mayo. yes, sir; several people. mr. hubert. you turned them away? mr. mayo. yes, sir. mr. hubert. did some pass by you, that is to say, with your consent, after being properly identified? mr. mayo. you mean enter the building? mr. hubert. yes. mr. mayo. i let two in from newspapers. mr. hubert. and they were properly identified? mr. mayo. they were properly identified. one of them had a two-wheeled cart, similar to a two-wheel golf cart and pulling some equipment on it. mr. hubert. what kind of equipment? mr. mayo. it looked like cameras and typewriters. mr. hubert. do you know jack ruby or have you seen any pictures since in the paper? mr. mayo. yes, sir; i don't know him, but i have seen his picture. mr. hubert. would you be willing to state that neither of those two men that you let in was jack ruby? mr. mayo. neither of those two men were him. they were smaller in stature. i want to tell you that at : , i left the entrance and went to the other one on main street. mr. hubert. let the record show that the witness is pointing to the mockup and when he says he left "this entrance," he was pointing to the commerce street entrance, and then he went to the---- mr. mayo. main street entrance? mr. hubert. main street entrance. mr. mayo. the other---- mr. hubert. did you go to the building? mr. mayo. i went in the building, stayed over there until : . mr. hubert. then what happened? mr. mayo. i got off duty and went home. mr. hubert. you didn't go out to the parkland hospital? mr. mayo. no, sir; i was asked to go, but didn't have any relief so they wanted the guard, there was about a hundred or so people congregating and coming up from church and everywhere else, and just a big crowd there, see, and i was needed there. mr. hubert. at the main street entrance? mr. mayo. yes, sir. mr. hubert. all right. now, for purposes of identification i want to mark what purports to be a signed copy of a report to chief curry, dated december , , and signed, actually, by jack revill, and f. i. cornwall, by placing in the right-hand margin the following, "dallas, tex., march , , exhibit no. , deposition of r. l. mayo." i am signing my name under that, and i'll ask you if you have read that, mr. mayo? i mean read the letter? mr. mayo. yes, i have read that. mr. hubert. would you endorse your name underneath it? i'm also endorsing a document which is a report of fbi agent wilkinson dated december , , by placing on the right-hand margin the following: "dallas, tex., march , , exhibit no. , deposition of h. l. mayo." i'm signing my name and ask you to sign your name. mr. mayo. what is this right here [indicating]? mr. hubert. i would like you to read it first. that's right. mr. mayo. do you want me to sign this? i talked to mr. wilkinson---- mr. hubert. yes. as far as you know, then, the contents of the documents marked and , are correct reports of interviews to which they relate? mr. mayo. yes. mr. hubert. let the record show that i am not taking out of the bound volume, commission document -a, page , the signed statement by mr. mayo. mr. mayo, do you have anything more to add? anything new that has not been brought up in either this deposition or these two exhibits, and ? mr. mayo. well, could you cut this off a minute and let's talk about it and see? mr. hubert. all right. (discussion off the record.) mr. hubert. let the record show that mr. mayo wanted to acquaint me with the general nature of another matter, but that after he had spoken a few sentences, it became apparent to me that it should be a matter of record, so, i will ask you now, mr. mayo, just simply to repeat what you have said to me in the last few sentences off the record. mr. mayo. the first individual that tried to gain entrance into the basement said that he was a minister and he had a small book in his hand and i asked him what his business was. he said he wanted to go see lee harvey oswald, that he was a friend of his, a minister that was supposed to help him, and he needed him, and he needed to go down there, and i told him "no, he could not enter without"--now, that is when i was on the commerce street side, and he hung around the entrance for some minutes, i think, and he kept looking in the basement and acted very peculiar, but finally he left within about minutes. he was tall, skinny, looked like over feet tall, and looked like he was a man between and . mr. hubert. how was he dressed? mr. mayo. he had on a suit. i don't recall the color of it, but it was just a suit, business suit with a necktie. mr. hubert. did he have a hat? mr. mayo. yes, sir; he had a hat on. mr. hubert. and a coat? mr. mayo. i--yes. mr. hubert. a top coat? mr. mayo. i don't believe that he had on---- mr. hubert. regular coat, suit coat, not an overcoat? mr. mayo. yes, sir. mr. hubert. now, you say you reported the fact to the---- mr. mayo. i mentioned that to jack revill, and they said, well, it was probably just like lots of people trying to gain entrance. they didn't think it had much value. mr. hubert. and he suggested that it be left out of your report? mr. mayo. yes. mr. hubert. is there anything else? mr. mayo. when i changed positions--stations, and went from commerce street to the main street side, about minutes after oswald had been placed in the ambulance, i cleared the way for them to get out of the entrance. mr. hubert. yes. mr. mayo. i went to the other side, and a large gentleman, well, he was slightly bald, weighed over pounds, and walked with a limp. he came up to me and then said that he was a roommate of jack ruby, and that he wanted to go down and talk to him. and i told him he could not enter. i asked him what was the nature of his business and he said that mr. ruby had quite a sum of money on his person and he wanted to go down there and see if he wanted him to handle it for him. i told him he couldn't go down and he stayed up around there about or minutes, and finally went on down main street. mr. hubert. did he give you his name? mr. mayo. i didn't ask him his name. he didn't give me his name. i told him he couldn't enter--and he walked with a limp. i remember that. he was a large fellow. had no tie on and slightly bald. no hat on. mr. hubert. and he claimed to be a roommate of jack ruby? mr. mayo. jack ruby; yes, sir. mr. hubert. could you describe him otherwise, his hair, his height---- mr. mayo. i'd say he was over feet tall, and much heavier than i am. mr. hubert. you have given all that information, i think. did he have a coat on? mr. mayo. no, sir; he had no coat on. mr. hubert. just a shirt? mr. mayo. just a shirt, heavy shirt and no tie on. mr. hubert. and you gave that information to jack revill? mr. mayo. i mentioned it to him and he said, well, just probably somebody knew him and trying to use an excuse to get in, so, he didn't feel like it was--it is my opinion it might be this fellow senator that we have been hearing about. i don't know how you spell his name. mr. hubert. can you estimate what time it was that this man, the heavy man, tried to get in to see jack ruby through the main street entrance? mr. mayo. sir, i would only have to estimate it at, i would say, around : . mr. hubert. now, anything else that you mentioned to revill that was not put down? mr. mayo. yes, sir. i mentioned about the tourists. that is a man and a woman that hung around the entrance on the main street side and said they were just passing through dallas, and they lived in springfield, ill., i believe they said, and they wanted to take some pictures, and they kept hanging around the entrance and they did take a few pictures and finally left. i don't know if they are connected with it or not. mr. hubert. anyhow, you mentioned that episode to jack revill and he also was of the opinion that it was not important? mr. mayo. minor, minor. mr. hubert. any other things then? mr. mayo. yes, sir. while i was on the commerce street side i had a ford fairlane car that came up about three times with two men in the front seat, and each time they would stop and ask me if he had come down--"what's happening?" i wondered then--now, i didn't mention that to revill, because i didn't think about it at the time, but i wondered since then if they had some connection with this---- mr. hubert. you did not mention that to revill? mr. mayo. no, sir; i didn't. mr. hubert. well, you didn't take the license number? mr. mayo. no, sir; it was just routine to me. they kept coming by. mr. hubert. and how many times did they pass you, do you know? mr. mayo. third time---- mr. hubert. you saw them three times? three times they came down commerce? mr. mayo. came down--commerce is one way going east, and they came down on my side and they slowed down and stopped and asked me, "has he come down? is anything happening?" and i would motion them on, because my job was to keep the street open. mr. hubert. and that happened three times? mr. mayo. yes, sir. mr. hubert. and after the third time, what happened? is that when the shot was fired or something, or you didn't see them any more or---- mr. mayo. after--i didn't hear the shot, but the hustle and bustle and noise in the basement, i looked down there and the men and all going around and around. everything--and i heard a little radio from a pedestrian that said that oswald had been shot, broadcast, and just about that time, i saw them going down commerce street. mr. hubert. when you say "them," you mean the two men in the fairlane car? mr. mayo. yes, sir. they were just a little past the entrance when all this commotion started. mr. hubert. that was the third trip? mr. mayo. that was the third trip down. i went on down--went downstairs. mr. hubert. you didn't notice whether it was a texas license or not; or out of state? mr. mayo. i didn't get a chance to see the license. mr. hubert. ford fairlane. do you remember the color? mr. mayo. seemed to me like it was a blue, or light color of some kind. mr. hubert. was it a sedan? mr. mayo. it was a -door. mr. hubert. -door sedan? hard top? mr. mayo. yes, sir; hard top. mr. hubert. what model, about? a new car? could you give us some idea about the model? mr. mayo. it was a late model car. mr. hubert. was it a model? mr. mayo. no, no; it wasn't a model. if i was going to guess i would say a or --one. that man was hatless and he had a high forehead. mr. hubert. he wasn't bald was he? mr. mayo. i wouldn't say he was bald, just had a high forehead. mr. hubert. was that the driver? mr. mayo. that was the driver. mr. hubert. how was he dressed? mr. mayo. he had on an old, old--looks like he had a heavy wool shirt like you wear in the winter, long sleeves. mr. hubert. have a tie on? mr. mayo. no tie. mr. hubert. what color was the shirt? do you remember? mr. mayo. the shirt--it was kind of checked color. mr. hubert. was he dark complected? mr. mayo. he was dark complected. mr. hubert. how old a man? mr. mayo. i would guess in the forties, just by looking at him, and i have wondered since about his interest in it. maybe just somebody that was inquisitive and wanted to see what was going on. mr. hubert. could be. on the other hand we want to get all the facts, and that is a fact. what about the other man? did you see him? mr. mayo. i didn't pay much attention to him, because he was on the other side and i was dealing with the driver. it was a one-way street, and i was dealing with the driver over here and i didn't pay too much attention to the other man. i couldn't even describe him. mr. hubert. how close do you suppose you were to this man each time he drove up? mr. mayo. oh, i'd say to feet. see, my duty was to stand on the sidewalk and keep the overflow of people--we had about people, and if i moved out, somebody on the sidewalk could go in behind me, and i didn't get too far from the entrance of the---- mr. hubert. i'm going to show you a set of pictures and ask if that man there--look at them all first before you answer--bears any resemblance at all to the man you saw? mr. mayo. no, sir. mr. hubert. let the record show that the witness was looking at the pictures of curtis lavern crafard. what about the other man in the car? did he look like this fellow? mr. mayo. sir, i wasn't close enough to make any identification or recognize him. he was on the other side and i wasn't able to. mr. hubert. now, was there anything else that you want to state to us? mr. mayo. no; i can't think of anything else, sir. it was all just--i'd say, a state of commotion and confusion when this happened, and i had people everywhere around me and i just assumed that they are curiosity seekers. making various comments about the assassination of a president. mr. hubert. i want to identify these pictures a little further. the pictures that were shown to the witness were various views of a man by the name of curtis lavern crafard, taken november , , by the fbi, and forwarded to the commission recently. all right, sir. is there anything else that you want to state about anything we have been talking about? mr. mayo. no; i can't think of anything else that would pertain to this in any way and my work there. i was just on duty that morning and doing the best i could, and i can't think of any other incident. mr. hubert. all right. well, let me ask you this: have you ever been interviewed by me or any other member of the commission at any time except, of course, with this deposition? mr. mayo. no, sir; i've not been interviewed by you. mr. hubert. about a moment ago we went off the record. have we covered, since we have been back on the record everything that you told me while we were off the record? mr. mayo. yes, sir. mr. hubert. all right, sir. that is it. thank you. mr. mayo. i want to express my appreciation to you people. i think you have done a fine job about investigating this thing, and i'm very happy to cooperate with you. i hope that you are able to solve this thing out and get it straight out, because i still think in my mind there was something back of this, because too much confusion around these entrances, and i, personally want to express my appreciation to every one of you people. mr. hubert. what do you mean by "too much confusion"? mr. mayo. seemed to me like people standing around and looking around. i don't know. people are funny. i have been working a long time. they just move around. mr. hubert. you mean a lot of members of the public? mr. mayo. public; yes. mr. hubert. but, let me clarify one thing, did your remark intend to say that the security methods weren't sufficient? mr. mayo. no, sir; i think the security methods were very fine, but i just wondered why the curiosity. i still wonder in my own mind. i don't know. i wonder why so many people were down there? mr. hubert. yes; well, i wanted to get that straight, because at first i thought your remark might be construed by someone as being critical of the security measures. mr. mayo. no, sir; the security measures was, at this time, was very good. mr. hubert. all right, thank you very much. mr. mayo. anything else? mr. hubert. no, sir; that's all. testimony of louis d. miller the testimony of louis d. miller was taken at : p.m., on march , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. burt w. griffin, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. griffin. i will swear you in, mr. miller. mr. miller. before we do that, what are we doing here? mr. griffin. we are taking your deposition. mr. miller. i'd like to understand what we are doing here first. mr. griffin. well, all right. i'll be happy to explain it to you. first of all so that we can get the record straight, my name is burt griffin, and i am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the president's commission to investigate the assassination of president kennedy. and the commission has been appointed under executive order , issued november , , by president johnson, under joint resolution of congress no. , to investigate the facts surrounding the assassination of president kennedy and the subsequent violent death of lee harvey oswald, and the other circumstances that were attendant on these two offenses. now, i have been authorized, under the rules of the commission, to take your sworn deposition, and chief curry has a copy of that authorization. i will be happy to show it to you if you care to see it. our particular interest in your testimony is to determine what facts you know about the death of lee harvey oswald, but also to determine any other pertinent facts that you may know about the general inquiry which the commission is authorized to go into. now, you are here today because we have made a request from the general counsel on the commission staff, and pursuant to the rules adopted by the commission, and we have made the request to chief curry. now, you are entitled to a -day written notice prior to having this deposition taken, and if you would like that we would be happy to do that. we had presumed that probably the police officers would prefer to have the notice waived. you are also entitled to have an attorney present during this interrogation. now, i have no objection in any way you want to handle this. i want you to be perfectly frank in telling us, because we have gone ahead, as i said, simply on the assumption that you probably would prefer to waive these matters, but if you would like to have the written notice and would like to have a copy of the authorizing resolution, or would like to have an attorney present during this deposition we would be happy---- mr. miller. no; i just want to understand what is going on. mr. griffin. well, do you have any question that you want to ask me about it? i have given you a general statement here. mr. miller. what will this deposition be used for? mr. griffin. well, this deposition will be made a part of the commission's files. it will not be turned over to any member of the police department. these files will remain in the possession of the commission, and on the basis of all of the investigation which we are conducting here, why, there will be a report written. now, i can't tell you what is going to happen to the files after--and that means this deposition--after the commission issues its report. i would like to be able to give you the assurance that it will be impossible for anybody to ever see this deposition. i can't, in honesty, tell you that, because i don't know that that is true. on the other hand, i don't know that it is not true, but basically, it will be used to write a report, and your testimony that you would give would be one of probably close to , maybe depositions that are going to be taken during this period. i think might be a pretty fair estimate, together with thousands, and probably approaching ten thousand pages of investigative reports and other documents also in addition to all these investigative reports. that is where it is all going to wind up. but, i can assure you of this: that no copies of this are going to be turned over to any member of the police department or any official of the state of texas as such. now, whether or not the thing will be accessible because they are all deposited in the archives, and years from now somebody could go and look at them, i don't know the answers to that. mr. miller. well, is what you want from me a statement of what happened down there? is that what you are getting at? mr. griffin. yes; but let me tell you this, too, that if you feel that you would prefer to talk about this thing off the record and that you think you would have important information to give us that you prefer to be kept--to have some assurances that your confidences would be kept completely, i would be happy to defer this deposition and do it in such a way that no one would know the reason for it, and i would check with our people in washington to see if there weren't some arrangements which could be made for it, because we are most concerned with getting the truth, and as much information--i wasn't suggesting that you wouldn't tell the truth, that we all know, and i would appreciate if there were better circumstances under which we could do this. i would inquire into it and i would make this a matter of complete confidence between us. mr. miller. well, there is nothing that i know that possibly a hundred other people don't know, so, that part don't bother me, but i don't understand coming down and giving a statement, that i am supposed to stand, and swearing, and all that part of it. mr. griffin. well, this is just as--i am sure you have testified before grand juries. mr. miller. i sure have. mr. griffin. of course, you have been sworn when you testified there. only they don't have a court reporter in the grand jury. i don't know about texas, but in ohio we don't have a court reporter present. i do have the feeling in talking to you that maybe you would like to do this under some other circumstances, and i would be happy to explore this. mr. miller. i understand that you want a statement from me. mr. griffin. well, i am going to examine you. mr. miller. and i'll be more than glad to tell anything i know about it, but i don't understand swearing in. this is not a court. mr. griffin. not a court in the sense that anybody is on trial, but it is a--let me explain this to you, that we have authority to administer the oath, and we have authority to punish for all consequences in violation of the oath. the contempt provision of the federal code applies to this proceeding. we also have authority--i don't have this authority personally, but there is a provision granted that we can grant immunity from prosecution. if you feel that there will be some evidence that you wouldn't want to give for one reason or another, we have authority to grant immunity from prosecution. i don't have that authority here, but--and i do want to make it clear that you can have a right to have an attorney present, and many of the witnesses do have attorneys. now, on the other extreme, if you would like to have a public hearing, we will open the hearing up to the public, but we haven't done it as a matter of routine except upon request, because we thought that most people prefer not to have it conducted in public, but that has been done, and we can do that. mr. miller. i still don't understand the reason of it. are you going to use this thing to try to prosecute me? mr. griffin. no. mr. miller. what are you going to use it for? mr. griffin. we have no authority to prosecute anyone except for perjury before the commission. now, we--our instructions are--let me get a copy of the resolutions. let me suggest that we handle it this way. i have got a copy here of the resolutions, executive order signed by president johnson, and the joint resolutions of congress. the rules of the commission and a memorandum dated march , , from mr. rankin, who is the general counsel of the commission authorizing mr. hubert and me to administer your oath and take your deposition. now, i think that what i prefer to do here so that you can be sure what you want to do, and i don't want to put you under any pressure. now, i would like to give you this and have you try to find another room out here and look at this, and read it over, and think about this and ponder it as long as you want, and i want to give you assurance that i am going to call another--i am going to call officer montgomery in here and proceed with him. i am not going to tell him that i have not completed your deposition or anything like that. i want to be sure that as far as anybody is concerned whatsoever, what has transpired here is completely routine so that any decision you make, i can give you as much assurance as possible---- mr. miller. all i wanted to know is the purpose of the thing. mr. griffin. well---- mr. miller. and if i find out we can go on with it. mr. hubert. why don't you go ahead and read this and let me go ahead with montgomery, and if you want i will tell montgomery that you went on. mr. miller. well, now, do you want me to come back some more, or what? mr. griffin. no; i'd like---- mr. miller. what time is it now? it is : . i am due at home at : . mr. griffin. i don't want you to take that away, and i think that maybe it would be better if you waited around. could you call your wife and meet me back here at o'clock, and why don't you wait for me in my office? mr. miller. well, now, could we get on with the thing? i am trying to explain to you, i have got small kids be coming home from school and---- mr. griffin. uh-huh. well, would you rather think about it and come back some---- mr. miller. well, if we can't take care of it today, i would like to come back tomorrow. mr. griffin. well, i can go ahead, you know. i want to make sure that you are satisfied in your own mind about everything before we start to ask any questions, and if you have any reservations or questions that i haven't answered i want you to look at those materials, and i would be happy to set it up for tomorrow if you would prefer to do it that way. mr. miller. i sure would. mt. griffin. all right. would you--let's see, you would want to take that home with you, wouldn't you? let me do this. let's go back to our office and let me get the girl to xerox off another copy of this. mr. miller. all right. mr. griffin. and let us set this up for : . what time are you on duty tomorrow? mr. miller. . mr. griffin. what is the easiest way for you to handle it? mr. miller. you mean time? mr. griffin. yes. mr. miller. probably o'clock would be the easiest. mr. griffin. all right. why don't you come in at o'clock then? mr. miller. okay. mr. griffin. all right. that's all. testimony of louis d. miller resumed the testimony of louis d. miller was taken at a.m., on march , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. burt w. griffin, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. griffin. i might state for the record and for your information, mr. ward, mr. miller, and i talked on the record a short while yesterday afternoon, and i don't believe that, when i was talking with him, that his name was entered into the record, so i think what you will have to do is get in touch with the court reporter--is it iris lennon or leonard?--and find out from her just where that is so that these two different sections can appear together. before i ask you to be sworn, mr. miller, i want to ask you if there are any questions that i can--that you have of me, i can tell you anything further about the nature of the investigation that is going on here? mr. miller. no; and had you explained to me yesterday what kind of information you were taking, what it would be used for, anything at all about it before you started to swear me in, i believe we would have got a lot further yesterday than we did. mr. griffin. now, do you want to raise your right hand and be sworn? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? mr. miller. i do. mr. griffin. would you state your name, please? mr. miller. louis d. miller. mr. griffin. and how do you spell that? mr. miller. [spelling] l-o-u-i-s. mr. griffin. where do you live, mr. miller? mr. miller. ravina drive, garland, tex. mr. griffin. when were you born? mr. miller. september , . mr. griffin. are you employed? mr. miller. yes. mr. griffin. where are you employed? mr. miller. city of dallas police department. mr. griffin. and how long have you been with the dallas police department? mr. miller. since august . mr. griffin. and what is your rank in the department? mr. miller. detective. mr. griffin. are you assigned to any particular bureau? mr. miller. juvenile bureau. mr. griffin. how long have you been in the juvenile bureau? mr. miller. since october of last year. mr. griffin. and where were you before that? mr. miller. radio patrol division. mr. griffin. all right. whose platoon did you work on? mr. miller. the last platoon that i worked on was captain souter's. mr. griffin. now, i understand that you were off duty on friday, november , is that right, of last year? mr. miller. the best that i remember, yes, i was off the day the president was shot. mr. griffin. and how about the next day, saturday, november the d, were you on duty or off duty that day? mr. miller. on saturday, i should have worked. i don't remember specifically any particular incident that happened that day that would bring to my mind that i did work. mr. griffin. well, is there any reason for you to think that you didn't work that day? mr. miller. no. mr. griffin. do you have any records of any sort back at the police department or notes that you have maintained which would indicate whether or not you worked? mr. miller. there should be some, yes. mr. griffin. what sort of records would those be? mr. miller. offenses that was assigned to me, prisoners handled. mr. griffin. i wonder if you could, when you return to the police department, if you could check to see if those records are available and provide copies of them to us, or if you can't make the copies, why if you will provide us with the originals, why we will make the copy and return the originals to you. would you be willing to do that? mr. miller. if i could. i would have to look through things that i have in my locker, a place there, and see if i have any there that were assigned to me on that date, otherwise it would be next to impossible, and see what prisoners i did handle. mr. griffin. are you supposed to make a report at the end of the day as to your activities? mr. miller. no. mr. griffin. well, i don't want you--i am not asking you to go through that and see what prisoners you handled if you can't find it readily, but it would be easy to find some record of whether you were on duty at all, wouldn't it? mr. miller. it would be marked in the duty book. mr. griffin. all right. if you would, check that and let us know, and if you do have any notes that pertain to those days, i would appreciate that, also. all right. now, do you have any recollection of when you first heard in any way that lee harvey oswald might be moved to the dallas county jail? mr. miller. no; i don't remember when i heard it or how i heard it. mr. griffin. do you recall coming to work sunday morning on the th? mr. miller. i remember being at work. as to the time that i came to work, no. mr. griffin. do you remember what time you usually report to work? mr. miller. i usually get in the office sometime between and : and some days earlier than that. mr. griffin. do you have any reason to think you arrived any later than : ---- mr. miller. no; i don't think so. mr. griffin. on sunday? mr. miller. i couldn't be definite on it because i don't remember. mr. griffin. do you ride to work when you come, take public transportation, or do you drive? mr. miller. i drive. mr. griffin. and do you drive in alone or with somebody else? mr. miller. i drive in alone. mr. griffin. alone? mr. miller. yes, sir. mr. griffin. now, on sunday, do you recall whether you drove in alone or with somebody else? mr. miller. i don't recall driving in at all that day, as far as that goes, but i am sure that i did, and i am sure i drove alone. mr. griffin. do you recall what you did in the early morning when you got to work on that sunday? mr. miller. nothing definite, no. mr. griffin. well, did you report up to the third floor to the juvenile bureau? mr. miller. yes. mr. griffin. do you recall what you did when you got to the juvenile bureau? mr. miller. no, sir; nothing definite. mr. griffin. i take it that you have some indefinite ideas of what happened up there? mr. miller. well, i can tell you what i usually do when i come up. mr. griffin. well, was this a usual day? mr. miller. as far as i was concerned, in my business, yes. mr. griffin. do you remember the people who were on duty up there on sunday morning? mr. miller. let's see. detective goolsby, detective cutchshaw, [spelling] c-u-t--i believe he spells his name [spelling] c-u-t-c-h-a-w. i am not sure about that spelling. detective lowery. mr. griffin. anybody else? mr. miller. cutchshaw, lowery, officer j. w. harrison. mr. griffin. is that "blackie" harrison? mr. miller. yes; and policewoman mcline [spelling] m-c-l-i-n-e. mr. griffin. is policewoman mcline attached to the juvenile bureau? mr. miller. yes. mr. griffin. the people that you have listed, is that the full staff of people who are on duty regularly at that time or are there other people also ordinarily who would be on duty? mr. miller. no; who is on duty would depend on the days off. mr. griffin. do you remember if there were any other people, whose names you might not recall, who were also on duty in the juvenile bureau that day? mr. miller. captain martin that day, the best that i remember. mr. griffin. all right. did you see him up in the juvenile bureau? mr. miller. yes. mr. griffin. anybody else that you can think of? mr. miller. no; that i can think of. mr. griffin. now, when you got up to the juvenile bureau that morning, did you talk to any of these people? mr. miller. i am sure i did. mr. griffin. who did you talk to up there? mr. miller. i probably talked to everybody that was there. mr. griffin. all right. when you arrived, were there television cameras on the third floor hallway? mr. miller. the best that i remember, there were. mr. griffin. do you recall whether or not those tv cameras were manned? mr. miller. i don't remember definitely whether they were or not, but i don't believe so. mr. griffin. all right. can you give us some sort of idea of how crowded the hallways, that hallway was, when you arrived for work in the morning? mr. miller. it wasn't crowded at all when i arrived at work. mr. griffin. now, had you been there before when it was more crowded than that? mr. miller. yes. mr. griffin. directing your attention to saturday, can you give us a description of what the status of that hallway was on saturday? mr. miller. i don't remember any definite time or whether it was saturday, but i had been in the hallway when it was almost impassable. mr. griffin. were you in the police department on friday at all? mr. miller. no. mr. griffin. i understand at the time that you remember this hallway being impassable was sometime before you arrived for work on sunday? mr. miller. yes. mr. griffin. that would have had to have been saturday? mr. miller. it probably was on saturday, but i don't remember. i can't remember that it was definitely saturday or any certain time on saturday. mr. griffin. do you think it would have been on friday? mr. miller. no; it wasn't on friday, because i didn't go near the police station on friday. mr. griffin. now, while you were in the homicide or in the juvenile bureau on sunday, did any newspaper people or radio or tv people come into the juvenile bureau for any purpose? mr. miller. i don't remember any specific ones coming in, but they were in and out, so i am sure they did. mr. griffin. and what was their purpose in coming in and out? mr. miller. they usually come in to use the telephone. mr. griffin. now, were you people able to conduct your activities in the juvenile bureau with these newspaper people coming in and out? mr. miller. they didn't interfere with my business. as far as the other people assigned to the bureau, i don't know whether they interfered with them or not. i couldn't say. mr. griffin. what kind of business were you transacting in the morning, sunday morning? mr. miller. just routine work is all i recall. if you would give me something definite to go on. mr. griffin. well, were you investigating any particular cases? mr. miller. at what time? mr. griffin. prior to the time that you went down to the basement. mr. miller. prior to that time, an officer had brought in two small children, as i recall. i don't now remember what they were brought in for, but i was working them, doing the paper work on them. mr. griffin. how soon was that after you got up to the juvenile bureau? mr. miller. that was later on in the morning, the best i remember, and i was working on the paperwork on them when i was told to report to the basement. mr. griffin. prior to bringing in those two children, did you talk with anybody in the juvenile bureau about the prospective move of lee harvey oswald to the dallas county jail? mr. miller. i could have. i don't recall it, though. in fact, i didn't even know that--for sure that oswald was still in our jail. mr. griffin. well, now, you heard the newspaper reporters come in and out of the office, didn't you? mr. miller. i don't remember any specific incident of when they came in and out. like i said, they probably did. mr. griffin. did you hear them talk on the telephone? mr. miller. i didn't pay any attention to what they were saying. mr. griffin. were you close enough to them to hear what they were saying? mr. miller. i didn't try to hear them. mr. griffin. were you close enough to hear them if you had tried to hear them? mr. miller. i don't recall it if i was. mr. griffin. whereabouts in the juvenile bureau did you work that day? mr. miller. we have several desks up there, and it is possible that i worked at all of them some time during the day. i don't remember any particular desk or anything like that. mr. griffin. now, is the juvenile bureau, is it one large room or does it have a series of rooms in it or what? mr. miller. it has several rooms, i would say. it has a reception office affair in front, and the captain's office is off of that, and then a short hallway, and the lieutenant's office, there is a holdover room for children, and then the main office, and then off of the main office we have two interrogation rooms. mr. griffin. now, do you have a desk in any one of those offices assigned to you? mr. miller. no. mr. griffin. were the newspaper reporters, did they come into the main office on sunday? mr. miller. i don't recall any specific incident where they came in, but i feel sure that they did. mr. griffin. now, did you work at any time out in the front office or the reception area? mr. miller. i don't recall whether i did or not. mr. griffin. did there come a time when you were requested to go down into the basement? mr. miller. yes. mr. griffin. now, what is your best estimate of when that was? mr. miller. i wouldn't have any idea. mr. griffin. before you got this request, had you been down in the basement that day? mr. miller. it is possible that i had, but i don't recall. mr. griffin. now, you were asked to prepare a report of your activities on the th, isn't that right, the police department? mr. miller. i was asked to write a letter and put in the information of what position i was in down in the basement at the time oswald was shot and things of that nature, not everything that i did that day. mr. griffin. when were you requested to make this report? mr. miller. i don't remember what day it was. i don't believe it was on that sunday. mr. griffin. do you remember what you were told to do when you were asked to make out the report? mr. miller. no; i don't. mr. griffin. who instructed you to make out the report? mr. miller. i don't recall who that was. mr. griffin. well, was it just a general announcement that was made by one of the chiefs or did somebody in particular approach you? mr. miller. it was probably someone in particular, but i don't recall who it was. mr. griffin. did you discuss this report with anybody before you made it? mr. miller. it is possible that i did, but i don't recall it if i did. mr. griffin. who was it on the th that asked you to go down into the basement? mr. miller. the best i recall, it was kind of a general announcement. who came up and requested or ordered, or however you wanted to put it, all of the men to go to the basement, i don't know who that was. as i say, i was working the papers, typing. i had my---- mr. griffin. where were you working at that time? mr. miller. i was working in the main office. mr. griffin. and who was in the main office with you at that time? mr. miller. well, since we had been instructed early in the morning to remain in the office until further notice, i would have to assume that all of the people assigned up there for that day were present. mr. griffin. do you remember anybody who was there? mr. miller. the only one that i can recall specifically is policewoman mcline, because after this announcement, request, order, whatever it was, was made for us to go to the basement, i asked her if she would finish the paperwork on the two small children for me. mr. griffin. do you remember if officer lowery was still there? mr. miller. no; i couldn't say. mr. griffin. or officer mcmillon? mr. miller. officer mcmillon doesn't work out of our office, so i am sure he wasn't there. mr. griffin. officer harrison? mr. miller. officer harrison works out of our office, and he was on duty that day, but as far as remembering it, anyone other than policewoman mcline in particular, i couldn't do it, because i don't know. mr. griffin. well, what did you do--well, this person who came into your--who requested that you go down, did that person actually walk into the juvenile bureau office? mr. miller. i don't know, because i didn't see him and i didn't hear him. mr. griffin. well, then, who told you? who did you hear the request from to go down? mr. miller. policewoman mcline, i believe it was, the best i remember, said something about all men have to go to the basement. mr. griffin. now, at that point, did you walk down to the basement? mr. miller. i walked down the hall and caught the elevator to the basement. mr. griffin. did you go down with anybody? mr. miller. the best i recall, the elevator was full. as far as remembering any one particular person that was on the elevator, i couldn't say. mr. griffin. did you walk out of the juvenile bureau with anybody? mr. miller. i am sure i did, but i don't recall any particular person that i walked out with. mr. griffin. do you recall how many people you walked out with? mr. miller. i sure don't. mr. griffin. when officer mcline, policewoman mcline, told you that you were supposed to go to the basement, what did she say? mr. miller. i don't recall her specific words. mr. griffin. did she tell you why you were supposed to go down? mr. miller. no. mr. griffin. did you have any idea of why you were to go down? mr. miller. no; i can't say that i actually did. mr. griffin. as you walked down to the basement, did you look into the homicide bureau? mr. miller. i don't recall looking in there; no, sir. mr. griffin. when you got down to the basement, where did you go? mr. miller. the best i recall, i was standing outside of the windows there in the hallway. mr. griffin. well, when you got off the elevator, what did you do? mr. miller. walked over to this hallway where the windows and telephones there are in the basement outside of the jail office. mr. griffin. did you meet anybody down there when you got off of the elevators before you got to that window, did you meet anybody down there? mr. miller. no particular person that i recall, although there were several people there. mr. griffin. did you receive any instructions from anybody before you went to this particular station that you mentioned? mr. miller. no. mr. griffin. how did you know to walk over there? mr. miller. i didn't. mr. griffin. why did you happen to walk there? mr. miller. there was no particular reason. mr. griffin. about how long was this before lee harvey oswald came down? mr. miller. i don't recall how long. it would be hard to estimate it. it could have been minutes or it could have been longer. mr. griffin. i have got another witness out here, mr. ward, and i think maybe it might be well to take a break here a second. i want to talk to this man. (discussion off of the record.) mr. griffin. mr. miller and i have been talking here for a few minutes off of the record about some of the events prior to his going down into the basement. now, as i understand it, mr. miller, shortly after you got into the office on sunday morning, you went some place for some coffee? mr. miller. i went to the deluxe diner on commerce street and had breakfast. mr. griffin. now, who did you go over there with? mr. miller. officer harrison. mr. griffin. and what time of the morning was that? mr. miller. i don't remember a definite time, but it was probably somewhere shortly after o'clock. mr. griffin. and did anybody else go over there with you besides harrison? mr. miller. no, sir. mr. griffin. this a place that you regularly go? mr. miller. no; not regularly. occasionally, we go over for a sandwich or we phone for sandwiches and take them up to the office. mr. griffin. do you normally take a coffee break right after you go to work? mr. miller. usually after we get our assignments in the morning, we take a coffee break and go to work. mr. griffin. did you receive assignments this morning when you came in? mr. miller. i don't believe the deskman finished making assignments when we went over to coffee. mr. griffin. was this the regular deskman? mr. miller. yes. usually we have a regular deskman, except his day off, and on his days off, everyone takes a turn rotating working at the desk. mr. griffin. excuse me. what was the name of the deskman that day? mr. miller. the best i remember, detective goolsby was on the desk that day. mr. griffin. now, where was this located on commerce street, this diner? mr. miller. it is in the block, i believe it is, almost directly across the street from the statler hotel. mr. griffin. and how many blocks would that be west of the police department? mr. miller. that would be in the first block. mr. griffin. when you went in there that morning, were you in uniform? mr. miller. no. i never wear a uniform. mr. griffin. did you know any of the people who worked at that diner? mr. miller. only when i see them. now, i know a colored boy's over there first name. it is jimmy, i believe, but i couldn't be definite on that. mr. griffin. was he in there on that day? mr. miller. i don't remember just exactly who it was on duty. there is usually three or four working over there. mr. griffin. all right. now, when you went in there, did they have counters and--did they have a counter and tables and booths? mr. miller. it is just a counter. mr. griffin. and how many people were working behind the counter that day? mr. miller. it would be hard to say. like i was telling you a while ago, there was usually maybe two, maybe four. it all depends on the amount of business they expect, i suppose. mr. griffin. did you go in there often enough so that you were familiar with any of the people waiting behind that counter although you might not have known them by name but you would recognize them and they would recognize you? mr. miller. i don't think so. i doubt if i have been in there over a half dozen times at the most. mr. griffin. did officer harrison know any of the people in there? mr. miller. i believe he did; yes. mr. griffin. i know you can't--i don't expect you to be a thousand percent accurate on this, but do you have any idea which of the people in there that he knew? mr. miller. no. i have been over there with officer harrison, and he usually speaks to, like this one colored boy, and i believe his name is jimmy or tommy or something like that. i couldn't be sure on that, but usually speak to him. and when we call up for sandwiches, officer harrison has called up there once or twice to have them make sandwiches and pick them up, and he usually asks for this one particular boy over there. mr. griffin. who suggested going over there for coffee that morning? mr. miller. i don't remember whether i suggested it or whether officer harrison did. mr. griffin. well, who suggested going out for coffee? mr. miller. like i say, i don't remember whether i did or whether he did. it would be hard to say. mr. griffin. did either you or officer harrison ask anybody else in the juvenile bureau to go out for coffee with you? mr. miller. we probably did, but i don't remember it. mr. griffin. now, when you got over there, how long did you stay at the diner? mr. miller. probably around minutes at the most. mr. griffin. and did you--what did you and officer harrison talk about over there? mr. miller. now, i couldn't say. couldn't say we talked about any one thing in particular. mr. griffin. did you talk about the investigation of oswald? mr. miller. we could have or we could have talked about officer harrison's rabbit dogs or fishing or numerous things. mr. griffin. did you talk about the movement of oswald to the county jail? mr. miller. it is possible that we did, but as far as being definite on it; i couldn't be. mr. griffin. now, did you talk with anybody else over there? mr. miller. no one that i recall; no. mr. griffin. did you--did either of you receive a telephone call over there? mr. miller. yes. mr. griffin. who received the telephone call? mr. miller. the best i remember, when the person that works there at the diner answered the phone, he said, "phoned for one of you," officer harrison answered it and came back to the counter and said we were to come back to the office as soon as we finished eating and were to remain there until further notice. mr. griffin. did he tell you who made the telephone call? mr. miller. no, sir; he never did, and i never did ask him. mr. griffin. do you know whether it was somebody from the police department that made that call? mr. miller. i presumed it was, but like i say, i never did ask officer harrison who it was, and that would be the only ones that would be likely to order us to return to the office and stay there until further notice. mr. griffin. now, when you got back to the office, did you have some idea of why you were supposed to remain back there until further notice? mr. miller. no; i couldn't say that i did. mr. griffin. did officer harrison talk to you at all that day about jack ruby? mr. miller. you mean prior to---- mr. griffin. prior to the time. mr. miller. no; i don't think so. i couldn't be definite on that, either, but i am sure he didn't. mr. griffin. did you know prior to the time that ruby shot oswald that officer harrison knew jack ruby? mr. miller. no. mr. griffin. how long have you known officer harrison? mr. miller. i have probably seen him around the police department ever since i have been here. as far as actually knowing the man, i didn't up until the time i went to work up in the juvenile bureau in october. mr. griffin. and did you ever, prior to the time that ruby shot oswald, had you ever gone any place socially with harrison? mr. miller. no. the best i remember, when i first came to work down here, officer harrison was riding a motorcycle and i worked in radio patrol, and the only time you can probably see each other would be passing, maybe down in the locker room, something like that, and then he did work out at the pistol range for a while, and when i would go to the pistol range, i would see him out there, but as far as talking to him or going any place with him, no. mr. griffin. were you ever engaged in any business enterprises with him? mr. miller. no. mr. griffin. did you know him any way other than in the capacity as a fellow police officer? mr. miller. that is the only way. mr. griffin. now, did anything else happen before you went down into the basement on sunday morning that you can remember? mr. miller. i can remember those children that were brought in and working--i remember working on the papers pertaining to them and i remember asking policewoman mcline, after we had been told to go to the basement, if she would finish the papers for me. mr. griffin. do you remember anything else that happened or anything else that was said? mr. miller. that is prior to going to the basement? mr. griffin. yes. mr. miller. no, sir; i don't. mr. griffin. now, after ruby shot oswald, did you talk with officer harrison? mr. miller. i am sure i did. in fact, after this was all over up there, i rode out to love field with officer harrison, so i am sure i did talk to him. mr. griffin. and did you talk to him about what had happened there in the basement? mr. miller. i am sure we did; yes, sir. mr. griffin. did you ask him whether he saw ruby at any time before ruby shot oswald? mr. miller. no; i don't believe i did. mr. griffin. did you talk to him about how ruby got down into the basement? mr. miller. i am sure we discussed it; yes, sir. mr. griffin. what do you remember about that? mr. miller. i don't remember anything definite, but i believe that more than likely everybody up there was wondering how he got down in there. mr. griffin. now, immediately after ruby shot oswald, what did you do? mr. miller. the best i remember, at the time that this happened, i was walking or trying to walk down towards the corridor for cars to go through in behind of the officers and oswald when they came out. mr. griffin. i want to know what you did after ruby was shot. mr. miller. after ruby was shot? mr. griffin. yes; or oswald was shot. mr. miller. the best i remember, someone, seemed like, hit ruby from behind and pushed him forward. like i said, i was trying to move that way when this happened, so i grabbed a hold of ruby and helped take him into the jail office. mr. griffin. now, did you--were you with ruby in the jail office when there were a lot of officers around him? mr. miller. yes. mr. griffin. did ruby put up any sort of a struggle there in the jail office? mr. miller. no; none that i remember. mr. griffin. were you--did you have physical hold of ruby in the jail office? mr. miller. when we got into the jail office; yes. mr. griffin. did you hear ruby say anything? mr. miller. yes. mr. griffin. what did you hear him say? mr. miller. as to definite words, i could give you what he said as best i remember it, but it may not be his exact words. it could be that he put some more words in. mr. griffin. okay. mr. miller. the best i remember, he said something about--well, first off, somebody asked, "who is he?" and he said, "oh, hell! you guys know me. i am jack ruby." and the best i remember, he said something about, "i hope the son of a bitch dies," and something about, "it will save you guys a lot of trouble," or, "it will save everybody a lot of trouble," something like that. mr. griffin. do you remember who it was that said, "who is it?" mr. miller. no; i sure don't. mr. griffin. do you remember anything else that was said while ruby was there in the jail office? mr. miller. no; because right after that he was moved over to the jail elevator and was being taken upstairs, and i went out in the basement, the garage part of the basement, again. mr. griffin. now, was ruby searched in the jail office while you were there? mr. miller. a quick search, yes. mr. griffin. a pat-down? mr. miller. yes. mr. griffin. were his pockets emptied? mr. miller. not that i remember; no. mr. griffin. all right. now, were you in the jail office when ruby was taken upstairs? mr. miller. i couldn't be definite on that, because the best i remember it, about the time he was being taken over to the elevator or shortly after, the ambulance came in and picked oswald up, and i went back out into the basement to help try to keep this crowd of reporters or photographers and what-not out of the way so that they could get the ambulance in and oswald loaded into it. mr. griffin. now, how long did you remain out there in the basement area assisting with the photographers? mr. miller. i would say maybe minutes to an hour. mr. griffin. now, were you there when officer dean was interviewed on television? mr. miller. i don't remember officer dean being interviewed; no. after the ambulance got out, i went up to the ramp on the commerce street side. there were several people up there who claimed to be reporters and photographers and what-not trying to get down into the basement and trying to force their way in, and i went up to assist with that problem. mr. griffin. during this period from the time that ruby was taken upstairs and all of the time you were down there in the basement, did you talk with anybody about how ruby got into the basement? mr. miller. it is possible that i did, but i don't--like i say, i don't remember. mr. griffin. do you remember any rumors that you heard at that time about how he got in? mr. miller. no. mr. griffin. were there any rumors circulated at that time as to how he got in? mr. miller. there was one that i remember, that he might have been--came in helping a crew with a television camera that came from the basement proper there out into the garage part. mr. griffin. did you hear that rumor while you were down in the basement? mr. miller. i believe i did, but i couldn't be definite about it. mr. griffin. did officer harrison stay down there in the basement with you? mr. miller. no; i don't believe he did. now, he could have, but i don't think so. mr. griffin. how about officer mcmillon? mr. miller. i didn't--i don't remember seeing officer mcmillon in the basement. mr. griffin. how about officer lowery? mr. miller. no. mr. griffin. what did you do after you finished down there in the basement? mr. miller. well, after things quieted down up there at the commerce street side, i went back up to the juvenile bureau. mr. griffin. what did you do up there in the juvenile bureau? mr. miller. i couldn't be definite about it. i probably worked on some reports, but as to definite---- mr. griffin. did you talk to anybody up there about how ruby got into the basement? mr. miller. i am sure i did, but as far as remembering any particular person that i talked to or how it was discussed, i couldn't say. mr. griffin. who was up there in the juvenile bureau when you got back? mr. miller. policewoman mcline is the only one that i could say that was definitely there. mr. griffin. where was officer harrison at that time? mr. miller. i couldn't say. mr. griffin. how about lowery? mr. miller. i don't know where they were. mr. griffin. now, when was the first time that you saw officer harrison after the shooting? mr. miller. it was later, but as to giving you a definite time on it from the time that this happened until we came back up to the office, it would be hard to do. mr. griffin. where did you first see him? mr. miller. back in the office, i believe, the best i remember. mr. griffin. and what did you do when you saw him? mr. miller. i don't remember any particular thing that we did. mr. griffin. now, how long did you remain up in the office? mr. miller. well, the biggest part of the day. captain jones, i believe it was, came down and told me to remain in the office until further notice again, that i was to remain there until further notice, and then--let's see--someone else came down shortly after that and had me go down to the chief's office. i went down there, and captain jones told me to go back to the juvenile bureau and remain until he called for me. mr. griffin. what were you wanted for in the chief's office? mr. miller. no one ever said, and apparently it was a mixup in the orders there, or something of that nature. mr. griffin. did you actually talk with jones when you got down there to the chief's office? mr. miller. only that he told me to go back to the juvenile bureau and wait until he notified me, that he had an assignment for me and he was going to notify me what it was later. mr. griffin. all right. how long did you remain back in the juvenile office? mr. miller. i couldn't say definitely. i know later on that afternoon, i believe it was officer harrison and detectives cutchshaw and lowery, the best i remember, and myself, were called down to the chief's office and given an assignment, but what time it was, a definite time, i presume it would have been around o'clock. mr. griffin. and who gave you the assignment? mr. miller. chief stevenson, the best i remember. mr. griffin. and where were you sent to? mr. miller. i was sent to love field. mr. griffin. and did the four of you all go out to love field? mr. miller. yes. mr. griffin. what were you to do out there at love field? mr. miller. we were to check around the american airlines ticket office and watch proceedings around there, around the ticket counter, out there around the american airlines ticket counter, the best i remember. mr. griffin. what were you looking for? mr. miller. well, after we had left the chief's office, we started out to love field, and captain martin called us back into the basement, and, the best i remember, he told us that mayor cabell had been scheduled to go to washington, or some place, on an airplane, and they had had a call that there had been a bomb placed on the plane or was going to be a bomb placed on it, or something of that nature, and i believe it was because of this that we were sent out to american airlines, and my understanding is that the mayor was supposed to have left on a braniff plane and changed it and left on an american airlines plane later. mr. griffin. what were you looking for around the american airlines office? mr. miller. anyone that might have been carrying a gun or a bomb or anything of that nature. mr. griffin. did you have a description of anyone in particular to look for? mr. miller. no. mr. griffin. now, what did you all talk about on the way out there in the car? mr. miller. i am sure we talked about this shooting. again, i couldn't be definite on it. like i say, i am sure everybody in the department was talking about it. mr. griffin. what did you hear in the car about how ruby was shot, how oswald was shot? mr. miller. you mean--well. officer harrison and myself were in one car and detectives lowery and cutchshaw in another car. mr. griffin. what did you hear--what did you hear from harrison as to how---- mr. miller. again, i couldn't be definite on any part of the conversation. like i say, i am sure we discussed the thing and talked about it, but as to any definite words, i couldn't be sure. mr. griffin. well, there are various rumors that have circulated about how ruby got into the basement, and i am sure you are familiar with all of them. mr. miller. well, now---- mr. griffin. which of the rumors did you discuss in the automobile that you can remember? mr. miller. well, the best i remember, the only rumor i had heard up until that time had been the one that ruby had come in with this camera crew. again, i can't be definite, but i believe it was on monday, the following day, that i heard this rumor, whatever it was, that he had entered off---- mr. griffin. the main street ramp? mr. miller. the main street ramp. mr. griffin. now, when you got out there--when you saw cutchshaw and lowery out there at the american airlines, did you discuss with them this rumor about coming in with the camera? mr. miller. i am sure we did, but again i couldn't--any definite words that were said or anything like that, i couldn't be sure. mr. griffin. do you remember anybody in that group saying that he saw a man come by with a camera? mr. miller. well, the best i remember, detective lowery, i believe it was, said something about this camera coming by, and i vaguely remember the camera coming by myself, but as far as a number of men and who they were that were bringing this camera in, again i couldn't say. mr. griffin. how about harrison? did he indicate at that time that he remembered the camera? mr. miller. not that i recall; no. mr. griffin. how about cutchshaw? mr. miller. no. mr. griffin. so lowery was the only one that you can remember talking about the camera, having seen this camera come by? mr. miller. he is the only one that i recall, yes. mr. griffin. is there anything else you want to tell us about the events of sunday, november th? mr. miller. well, i don't remember anything that i could tell. if i was asked a question on it and knew the answer on it, i would be more than glad to answer the question. mr. griffin. have you heard any rumors concerning anyone who might have seen ruby down in the basement prior to the shooting of oswald? (pause) is your answer "no"? mr. miller. that is right. mr. griffin. tell me. were you down in the basement when rio pierce's car drove out of the basement? mr. miller. i remember a car driving out, which would be the wrong way up towards main street, but as far as remembering who was driving the car, i don't. mr. griffin. where were you standing when that car drove out? mr. miller. i was standing by the door to the jail office, the door that comes out into the garage portion of the basement. mr. griffin. who stationed you there? mr. miller. nobody. like i was telling you before, we were out in this hallway, windows, jail office. someone that was already out in the garage part of the basement, i presume, passed back instructions for everybody to go out and line up on both sides of this hallway affair that comes out. mr. griffin. where were you when you received those instructions? mr. miller. i was standing in this hallway outside of the jail office windows there. there is those double doors, swinging doors that come out into the garage portion of the basement. mr. griffin. were you on the garage side of the swinging doors? mr. miller. no; in the basement proper. mr. griffin. how long was that before oswald came down? mr. miller. i couldn't be definite on that, but it wasn't very long, possibly minutes. i don't believe it could have been any longer than that. mr. griffin. now, then, where did you go to? mr. miller. from the basement proper, after the orders was passed back to go outside and line up on both sides, i got on what would be the north side of this little hallway in the garage portion of the basement, where the ramp comes in, through the hallway that comes out there, i was on the north side of that and would be on the east side of the door that goes into the jail office. mr. griffin. and were you keeping an eye out in the basement for people who might obstruct oswald? mr. miller. pardon. mr. griffin. were you keeping a look, a watch out, from your position for people who might try to obstruct oswald? mr. miller. i was kind of watching the crowd and that, but as far as having a feeling that anything was going to happen or---- mr. griffin. you were watching the crowd? mr. miller. as to orders to do any particular thing. mr. griffin. where was the crowd that you were watching? mr. miller. they were across the ramp that goes down through there. mr. griffin. were they up against the railing? mr. miller. part of them were up against the railing, part of them, the best i remember, on the east side of the railing. mr. griffin. and how about, were the people strung across the main street ramp from the direction of the jail house, the jail office, to the railing? mr. miller. the best i remember, there was. mr. griffin. well, now, how many lines deep would you say there were of people along--crossing the main street ramp on the north side just before oswald came out? mr. miller. i recall of people being there, but as to how many rows there were or a definite number of people, it would be hard to say. the only thing on that that i could say definitely was that there were people there, and as to how many, it would just be next to impossible to say. mr. griffin. now, as pierce's car came out, what did you do? as pierce's car came out of the garage, what did you do? mr. miller. i didn't do anything that i remember. mr. griffin. did you look at it? mr. miller. i remember seeing a car going out the wrong way up to main street, but as far as looking in the---- mr. griffin. did you watch it go up the ramp? mr. miller. no; because once it passes this wall there, it passes out of view. mr. griffin. did you keep an eye on the newsmen in that area as they re-formed? mr. miller. i am sure i did, but looking over the crowd and everything, it would be hard not to see them re-form, or whatever you call it. mr. griffin. where was blackie harrison standing when pierce's car went out? mr. miller. i didn't see officer harrison that i remember when this car drove out. mr. griffin. did you see officer harrison at any time down in the basement after you took your position along the north wall just outside of the jail office? mr. miller. it is possible that i did, but as far as remembering seeing him or saying anything to him after that, i couldn't say definitely. mr. griffin. i am going to hand you what i have marked for purposes of identification as miller exhibits and . now, exhibit is a copy of a report made by fbi agents wilkinson and hardin of an interview that they had with you on december , , and exhibit is a copy of a statement that you made or a letter that you addressed to chief curry on november , , entitled, "subject: shooting of harvey oswald." i am going to ask you to take these and go out into the other office and look them over and then let me know whether there are any additions, corrections, changes of any sort that you would want to make in those. (recess.) mr. griffin. for your purposes, mr. ward, may i say that we have mr l. d. miller back with us. and have you had a chance to look over exhibits and ? mr. miller. yes. mr. griffin. to your recollection, are those accurate reports of--looking at , the fbi report, is that an accurate report of what you told the fbi at that time? mr. miller. well, there is part of it in here that is a little confusing. it could mean one thing and then it could mean another. now---- mr. griffin. do you remember that interview? mr. miller. yes. mr. griffin. and are you able to state from your memory whether that is an accurate report of what you told them at that time? mr. miller. there is one part in here. let me find it. it was, when the officers were sent to the ramp area prior to oswald being brought down, there were officers stationed on both sides of the ramp. the officers that came down were stationed on both sides of the ramp. i don't recall telling the fbi that there were already officers stationed there. mr. griffin. all right. let me see if there was some way you can mark that on there. where is this? mr. miller. right here. mr. griffin. would you want to take this, take my pen, and amend that so that it reflects what your best recollection is that you told them at that time? mr. miller. let's see. where do you want me to put it? mr. griffin. you can either write it down below---- mr. miller. the whole thing would have to be reworded. this like this makes more sense to me what i told them. mr. griffin. all right. you have written there, "the officers that were sent to the ramp area prior to oswald being brought down were stationed on both sides of the ramp." were you present when the instructions were given to the officers generally as to where to go? mr. miller. to line up on both sides---- mr. griffin. yes? mr. miller. of the ramp area where oswald was to be brought through. mr. griffin. yes. were you present at that time? mr. miller. yes. mr. griffin. who gave those instructions? mr. miller. i don't know. mr. griffin. do you remember what you were told to do, if anything, when oswald got to you? mr. miller. i wasn't told what to do. mr. griffin. now, are there any other corrections that you want to make in that? mr. miller. yes. "miller said he had no other pertinent information concerning the shooting of oswald." i wasn't asked if i had any more information to give to them. i answered their questions, the questions they asked me. they did not ask me if i had any other pertinent information to add. mr. griffin. all right. would you change that on there, then, and state, cross that out, and put something through there and say, "i was not asked if i had pertinent information"? now, did you in fact at that time have pertinent information, other than what they asked you about? mr. miller. none that i knew of. it is like now. it could be possible that you would ask me a question that i would remember something other than what i have told you, but i wouldn't know what it would be. mr. griffin. now, do you have any other corrections that you want to make on this fbi report? mr. miller. everything else on it looks like it is just about the way it should be. mr. griffin. would you, then, initial the corrections that you have made on here and date it? mr. miller. where do you want it initialed? mr. griffin. any other place, right next to it. and will you initial the other correction, date it? now, directing your attention to exhibit , and is that a true and accurate copy of the letter that you wrote to chief curry on november ? mr. miller. that is right. mr. griffin. now, would you sign that letter and date it, sign the piece of paper somewhere down there near the bottom and date it, and would you sign over here on exhibit , the point where i identified the document, would you write, sign your name, and date it? now, let me ask you one final thing. i take it that you have told us everything at this time that you can remember about the events that i have questioned you about? mr. miller. yes, sir. mr. griffin. and you have mentioned everything to us at this point that you can remember which you think is pertinent to our investigation? mr. miller. everything that i know of. mr. griffin. now, if anything else in the future comes to your attention that you think might be pertinent to this investigation, would you come forward and tell us about it? mr. miller. yes; sure will. mr. griffin. all right. okay. thank you very much. mr. miller. do you want me to call you, if i check, bring the book up to the office? mr. griffin. yes. mr. miller. i am sure i did work that day. mr. griffin. if you would, bring the book to us. mr. miller. i wouldn't be allowed to bring the book out of the office. it carries the duties time. everybody's name is in the same book. mr. griffin. all right. if you would, call us and let us know the pertinent details. mr. miller. yes. mr. griffin. thank you. testimony of william j. newman the testimony of william j. newman was taken at p.m., on march , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. burt w. griffin, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. griffin. mr. newman, my name is burt griffin. i am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel's office of the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy. this commission was set up pursuant to an executive order of president johnson on november th, , and under a joint resolution of congress, no. . the commission has prescribed a set of rules of procedure. pursuant to those rules i have been authorized to take your sworn deposition. i want to tell you a little bit about what the general nature of the inquiry is. of course, this was set up, as you know, after president kennedy was assassinated and lee oswald died. our instructions are to investigate, evaluate and report back to president johnson on all the facts surrounding the assassination of the president and the murder of lee oswald. now, that includes going into the background of oswald and ruby, their associations and their motives anything that you can think of about them. we have no authority to send anybody to jail, except for perjury. we are not like the grand jury, in the sense if we find a crime, and we are not conducting this examination with the thought that anybody else is going to use this information to prosecute for crimes of anybody except for perjury. the most important motivating force, i think, in this investigation is one of national security, not only from the standpoint of finding out as much as we can so that we can learn how to prevent all of the occurrences that have taken place in the last four months from ever happening again, but also, so we can determine if there is any possibility that there was more than one person involved with either one of these two men. now, we have asked you to appear here primarily to develop facts in connection with the murder of oswald, but if you have any sort of information that would be relevant to the entire scope of our investigation, we would like to have it. now, in particular you have been asked to appear here by virtue of a general request which was made by the general counsel of the commission, mr. j. lee rankin, to chief curry, a letter was sent to chief curry and a whole list of names was on that letter, and we indicated that we were going to examine these people. under the rules of the commission, you are entitled to receive -day written notice personally from the commission, and that hasn't been sent to you. however, you may waive that notice, and some people insist on it and others don't. it doesn't make any difference to us, but i would ask you now whether you would like us to give you the written notice or whether you are willing to waive the written notice? mr. newman. no; i will be willing to waive it. mr. griffin. now, i notice that you don't have an attorney here, and that you are also permitted to have an attorney in any appearance before us, and if you have any thought that this would be something that you think would be desirable, don't hesitate to say so, because, again, many people have had attorneys here, even down here in dallas, and we would be happy to go home and go to bed tonight and take up at a more convenient time. do you want an attorney? mr. newman. no. mr. griffin. now, i am going to ask you to raise your right hand and be sworn. do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. newman. i do. mr. griffin. will you state your full name, please? mr. newman. william j. newman. mr. griffin. and when were you born, mr. newman? mr. newman. january , . mr. griffin. where do you live? mr. newman. my street address? mr. griffin. yes, sir. mr. newman. cotillion. mr. griffin. cotillion? mr. newman. [nods head.] mr. griffin. is that in dallas? mr. newman. that's right. mr. griffin. and what's your occupation? mr. newman. i am a mechanical engineer. mr. griffin. where are you employed? mr. newman. ling-temco-vought. mr. griffin. ling-temco--l-i-n--[spelling]? mr. newman. l-i-n-g t-e-m-c-o v-o-u-g-h-t [spelling]. three words. mr. griffin. how long have you been employed there? mr. newman. approximately years. mr. griffin. now, are you also a member of the dallas police reserve? mr. newman. that's correct. mr. griffin. how long have you been a member of the police reserve? mr. newman. well, months. mr. griffin. i ask you, are you a graduate engineer? mr. newman. no; i am not. mr. griffin. how many years of education have you had? mr. newman. i had a year and a half. mr. griffin. of college? mr. newman. college education. mr. griffin. where did you attend college? mr. newman. arlington state. mr. griffin. is that at arlington, tex. mr. newman. yes. mr. griffin. is that right here in the general area of dallas? mr. newman. yes; it's midway between dallas and fort worth. mr. griffin. and what kind of courses did you take at arlington state? mr. newman. just general engineering courses. mr. griffin. how long have you been employed at ling-temco-vought? mr. newman. about years. mr. griffin. and, can you tell us something about the nature of your duties with your employer? mr. newman. i'm a design engineer and lead man. i am responsible for four or five draftsmen on a given project. mr. griffin. what do you mean you are a design engineer; what sort of things do you do? mr. newman. well, it's mechanical design of high-power transmitters, radar transmitters, mostly, electronic circuits. mr. griffin. do you put things on drawing boards? mr. newman. that's right. mr. griffin. and do you work from plans that other people draw up or plans that other people conceive, or are you responsible to come up with ideas? mr. newman. i work from an electrical schematic, and i am responsible for the mechanical design and supervision of the other men, to make sure this work is carried out. mr. griffin. now, do you work under a graduate engineer of some sort? mr. newman. yes. mr. griffin. now, did you go through a training program before you became a member of the police reserves? mr. newman. yes. mr. griffin. how long was that training program? mr. newman. approximately months. mr. griffin. and how often did you go to school? mr. newman. it was hours a night, night a week. mr. griffin. do you have any compensation in connection with your services on the police reserves? mr. newman. none whatsoever. mr. griffin. why does anyone want to be a member of the police reserve? mr. newman. well, civic responsibility, i guess. mr. griffin. are there any little side benefits of any sort? mr. newman. well, yes. you mean in the way of favors, this type of thing? mr. griffin. no; i don't know, not necessarily that, but what---- mr. newman. i enjoy it because i do office work, indoors, and this is a way of getting out, little something to break the routine. mr. griffin. are there favors and what not that you can get on account of this? mr. newman. oh, outside of maybe being overlooked of a traffic violation, i don't know of any. mr. griffin. i don't want you to paint yourself too good in this way, because we had one guy who came in here and painted himself real good, and found out that he was making a mistake. maybe i am a great skeptic. mr. newman. well, it's like i say, in my case i have always been interested in law enforcement and it is an outlet, hobby, so to speak. mr. griffin. i want to say this, i finished interviewing captain arnett, and i found him to be a very fine gentleman, so on the basis of my experience, i don't have any reason to make these comments. now, were you on duty with the reserves the day president kennedy was shot? mr. newman. i was that evening. that was some or hours after the assassination. mr. griffin. i see. what time did you come on duty friday evening? mr. newman. o'clock. mr. griffin. when you got to the police station, who did you report to? mr. newman. to lieutenant merrell. mr. griffin. where were you then assigned? mr. newman. i was then assigned to ride observation with the radio patrol squad . mr. griffin. what did riding observation consist of? mr. newman. well, this is our normal assignment. we don't normally take part in police activities unless we are directed by a regular officer. mr. griffin. but you were riding around in the district someplace? mr. newman. that's right. mr. griffin. did this permit the regular officer to be relieved for other duties? mr. newman. no, it didn't. mr. griffin. would you have had to come in on friday night anyhow? mr. newman. yes, sir. mr. griffin. now, on saturday night, on saturday, were you at the police department? mr. newman. no; none at all saturday. mr. griffin. on sunday, did you come in? mr. newman. yes. mr. griffin. all right. now, how did you happen to get called in on sunday? mr. newman. i was called by sergeant sullivan. mr. griffin. about what time do you believe lieutenant merrell called you? mr. newman. it was approximately : or a.m. mr. griffin. how do you fix that time? mr. newman. i just say--i suppose it took me approximately an hour to get down there and i arrived about : . mr. griffin. you were called in the morning? mr. newman. yes. mr. griffin. : or in the morning? mr. newman. yes. mr. griffin. now, prior to the time that he called you in the morning, had you heard anything about the possibility of moving lee oswald to the county jail? mr. newman. well, i knew he would be, of course, but i didn't know what time. mr. griffin. incidentally, on friday night, were you on the third floor at all? mr. newman. no; not at any time. mr. griffin. do you remember when you came in on sunday where you parked your automobile? mr. newman. yes; i parked it across the street from the police garage on canton. mr. griffin. on what street? mr. newman. on canton, c-a-n-t-o-n [spelling]. mr. griffin. and, is that north, south, east, or west of the---- mr. newman. it's immediately south of the downtown area. mr. griffin. and how far from commerce street; how many blocks from commerce street? mr. newman. as i recall, i think it's blocks. mr. griffin. and is a police garage there? mr. newman. yes. mr. griffin. now, did you walk up harwood? mr. newman. yes. mr. griffin. and do you recall what entrance you entered? mr. newman. i entered commerce street door that leads into the basement. mr. griffin. now, do you have any recollection of whether there were any tv wires strung through there? mr. newman. yes; there was a large van parked on commerce street, on the corner of commerce and harwood, and there was all kinds of cables. i don't recall whether there were any going in that door or not. there might have been, possibly. mr. griffin. were there any tv cables coming down the commerce street ramp? mr. newman. not to my recollection. mr. griffin. i believe you spent some time after you were placed on duty over in the garage area? mr. newman. that's right. mr. griffin. and, as i understand it, close to commerce street? mr. newman. yes. mr. griffin. and you were guarding the door to the enginerooms, in that general area? mr. newman. well, the first thing, when i first got there, i was assigned to help search the automobiles that were parked in the garage. mr. griffin. yes; i want to get to that. i am going to go a little backwards on this. mr. newman. all right. mr. griffin. i want to get the questioning. where you were finally stationed prior to the time oswald was shot, was that near the entrance, the doorway to the engineroom? mr. newman. yes. mr. griffin. now, i am going to get a map, diagram here, and i would like for you to try to think back to that. i am going to mark this newman exhibit . now, mr. newman, this is a copy of the diagram of the basement area of the police and court building in dallas. i will try to explain it to you, and then if you have any questions, why, i will try to answer those. but you see in this area is the jail office, harwood is off in this direction. there is main, there is commerce [indicating]. now, this dotted line here running parallel to commerce street is actually the outside wall above ground level, and here would be commerce street, if you were at ground level, here would be the sidewalk, here would be the outside wall. however, when you are in the basement, this diagram purports to represent anyhow, that the basement wall is this solid black line over here, and i presume that that's true, although i have never checked it myself. mr. newman. it looks to be. mr. griffin. and do--these other black marks around here represent posts [indicating]. now, would you indicate on this diagram where it was that you were stationed by--well, where it was you were stationed in connection with the security of the basement, after the search of the basement? mr. newman. i was placed right at the place of this column. there is what this is, isn't it? mr. griffin. yes. mr. newman. do you want me to---- mr. griffin. just an "x" there [indicating]. now, as you were standing there, do you remember whether any tv cables ran through that general area? mr. newman. there were none there. mr. griffin. there were none. were there any tv cables that you could see in the garage area? mr. newman. by the garage area, you are talking about this area here [indicating]? i didn't see any. mr. griffin. now, there is an arrow here that says "to engineroom." are you familiar with--is there a door over in that area? mr. newman. not a door as such. i don't believe it can be closed. it's just an opening there [indicating]. mr. griffin. there is an opening? mr. newman. uh-huh. mr. griffin. and you can walk into the engineroom there? mr. newman. that's right. actually walk--in fact, i didn't even know it was there until that morning, but you can walk onto a landing here and then down. the engineroom is some or feet lower than that. mr. griffin. did you stand in that general area all the time, from the time that sergeant dean placed you there until oswald was shot? mr. newman. no; there was one time when i was called back into the assembly room, back over here. i think they needed some men somewhere else. they picked four or five men and then i was returned to this place [indicating]. mr. griffin. how long before oswald was shot would you estimate that you were pulled off this spot temporarily? mr. newman. oh, it must have been minutes to an hour. mr. griffin. all right. how long were you away from the area? mr. newman. five minutes. mr. griffin. i see. let me mark on here pulled off for minutes, minutes to hour before oswald shot [indicating]. did anybody replace you? mr. newman. no; they didn't--i better not make that statement. i am not sure. mr. griffin. now, i want to go back and pick things up from the time you entered. mr. newman. okay. mr. griffin. now, what time was it when you arrived down there at the building? mr. newman. approximately : a.m. mr. griffin. where did you go? mr. newman. i went to the assembly room. mr. griffin. how long did you remain in the assembly room? mr. newman. just long enough to have my name in the unit taken down on the roster. mr. griffin. when lieutenant merrell called you, did he tell you why you were to come down? mr. newman. yes. mr. griffin. what did he tell you? mr. newman. he said that oswald was to be transferred at o'clock, that they expected some crowds downtown and they thought they would need our help, or a crowd was gathering, i think is what--the way he had actually said it. mr. griffin. do you recall his telling you the time would be o'clock? mr. newman. i happened to remember it because i had to rush to get down there in time. mr. griffin. did he tell you anything else? mr. newman. no; that was all. mr. griffin. when you got down there, did you receive any instructions from somebody? mr. newman. he and i walked out into the garage area there and we talked to some--to sergeant dean then. mr. griffin. had the search of the garage already begun when you arrived? mr. newman. yes. mr. griffin. what did you do in connection with the search? mr. newman. i searched--well, we looked inside all the automobiles. we checked to make sure the trunk was locked, that the hood was securely latched, and this general area right in here, there were three or four of us working that area in there [indicating]. mr. griffin. and you are talking now about the commerce street half of the garage? mr. newman. that's right. mr. griffin. what else did you do besides search the cars? mr. newman. that was it, until i was assigned to that post. mr. griffin. now, did you see what sergeant dean did? mr. newman. no; i didn't. the only time i remember seeing him, they found a sporting type rifle in a car somewhere. i think it was later identified as belonging to one of the officers. i saw him walking out with it. mr. griffin. now, during the period you were standing there in the garage, were you able to look over in the direction of the main street ramp? mr. newman. yes. mr. griffin. now, did you see, during the period that you were in the garage, any automobiles moved out of the garage? mr. newman. yes. mr. griffin. now, do you remember when the armored car came down--was brought down the ramp? mr. newman. no; i didn't even know it was there. i couldn't see it from my location. well, the armored car wasn't brought down the ramp. it was just backed to the door. mr. griffin. was there ever a time that you were aware there was an armored car up there? mr. newman. not until after the shooting. mr. griffin. standing where you were standing was there anything that happened, what you would estimate, a half hour before oswald was shot, that would be significant to fix the time? mr. newman. no; the only thing i can recall at all, there was a pop-type noise in that area there. i found out later, when they opened the door to the armored car a soft drink bottle had rolled out and broken. that caused quite a commotion among the reporters and some of them went up the ramp to see what happened. mr. griffin. before you heard that pop-type noise, do you remember anything else before that that might be significant? mr. newman. no. other than the movement of the cars and the men in there, i can't recall anything. mr. griffin. now, directing your attention then to the pop-type noise, did you see any cars moved out of the basement after you heard the pop? mr. newman. yes; i am almost certain a car did leave after that. mr. griffin. saw a car leave or more than one car? mr. newman. one is all i recall. mr. griffin. where was that car parked, if you recall? mr. newman. well, i am not too sure of that. i think it was parked in this area just to the bottom of this small ramp here [indicating]. mr. griffin. would you mark on the map where you think that was? you want to mark car? mr. newman. [indicating.] mr. griffin. where did you see that car move to? mr. newman. well, if its the one i am thinking about, they turned and went out the main street side. i recall there was a car came in. i think it was a squad that had a prisoner. i don't recall it leaving. it may have. i don't know. mr. griffin. when did you recall a car coming in, before or after that car went out? mr. newman. it must have been before. mr. griffin. you say must have been, because somebody has told you that a car went out there? mr. newman. no; but i am sure--i do recall this car left--oh, not over or minutes, if that long, before oswald was brought in, and i do know that no other car left after that, or entered. mr. griffin. well, now, do you remember two cars being moved out of the garage up behind the armored van? mr. newman. i recall one that was parked right here. i don't remember whether there were two or not, but there was definitely one parked right here on the level part of the ramp [indicating]. mr. griffin. did you see where that came from; where that car came from? mr. newman. i don't recall, but i think it came from the parking area. mr. griffin. but you didn't see it moved out of the parking area? mr. newman. if i did, i don't recall. i am sure i did, but---- mr. griffin. when sergeant dean placed you in the basement, did you recall where he placed any of the other men? mr. newman. no; i don't. the only one i remember was there was a regular officer--i don't know who he was. he was in this approximate area here. do you want me to mark this [indicating]? mr. griffin. yes; go ahead. why don't you put a "r" for regular? mr. newman. [indicating.] mr. griffin. now, do you recall whether there were any officers over here by elevators nos. and and the service elevator? mr. newman. i am almost certain there weren't any in the garage area, except he and i, immediately prior to the shooting. there was quite a few moving around through there before that. mr. griffin. how long before that were they moving around? mr. newman. oh, i would say an hour before that, they were moving in and out. mr. griffin. but let's take the or minutes before the shooting. were there any men over by those elevators? mr. newman. not except the one man. i assume that was his job. mr. griffin. the one man you have marked here with an "r"? mr. newman. yes. mr. griffin. now, were you able to tell whether these elevators no. and no. were in operation? mr. newman. no; there is no way i had of knowing. i could see the elevators, but i don't know whether they were in operation. mr. griffin. did you see anybody go up or down those elevators in the hour that you were at your position? mr. newman. no. mr. griffin. were you able to tell whether or not this service elevator was in operation? mr. newman. that i don't know either. mr. griffin. did you see anybody in that service elevator? mr. newman. no. mr. griffin. are you able to state positively that there was nobody, during the period you were here, who you saw in that service elevator? mr. newman. no. i couldn't say that. i just say i couldn't see anyone. mr. griffin. now, did you, during the time you were stationed here, did you see anybody come out of the engineroom area? mr. newman. no. mr. griffin. were you able to tell from where you were stationed if there was anybody in there, a night watchman or anybody in that engineroom there? mr. newman. no. i couldn't see if there was anybody in there. mr. griffin. now, in the minutes or half hour before the shooting, how many cars would you say were parked in this part of the garage [indicating]? mr. newman. oh, i would estimate there were . mr. griffin. now, in that half hour before the shooting, was there any traffic in and out of that garage? mr. newman. just that one squad, that i recall. mr. griffin. now, from the time that you heard that coke bottle drop, where was your attention focused, from your position? mr. newman. at the time? mr. griffin. from the time? mr. newman. oh, from the time? mr. griffin. yes. what were you looking at in there? mr. newman. well, my main concern was this room. mr. griffin. i see. mr. newman. i was looking occasionally throughout the rest of the area. mr. griffin. could you tell us how you faced from there, from where you have got yourself, what direction you were facing? mr. newman. i was facing in this direction [indicating]. mr. griffin. did you have occasion at any time to look over in this area here [indicating]? mr. newman. not until immediately prior to the shooting. mr. griffin. what directed your attention over there? mr. newman. someone yelled, "here he comes." i believe, "here they come," something to that effect. mr. griffin. and you could hear that from over there? mr. newman. [witness nods head.] mr. griffin. now, how about when you saw an automobile move out of the garage? did you follow that automobile--did you watch and see where that automobile went? mr. newman. not from the time it got on the ramp. i couldn't see but about two thirds of the ramp. i couldn't see the door. mr. griffin. all right. now, after that automobile left, did you continue to watch over in that direction? mr. newman. no. there was nothing unusual about it. mr. griffin. prior to the time, or as the automobile was moving out, can you describe this area, in what i will call the entrance to the garage, describe how many people were in that area there? mr. newman. oh, i would estimate there were , , people. mr. griffin. now, were there substantially more people in the area in the garageway than in the area along the main street ramp? mr. newman. no; there were more people over in this area here, along this wall [indicating]. mr. griffin. how many people would you estimate were over---- mr. newman. well, that's what i meant, i would say over or , total. out of that, i wouldn't think there were more than or , if that many, in this area here [indicating]. mr. griffin. would you mark down here the placement of the people in that area at the time you heard somebody yell, "here he comes." mr. newman. you just want to know about this one area? mr. griffin. yes. mr. newman. i don't recall specifically anyone being there at any particular place [indicating]. mr. griffin. all right. now, over in this area, can you show me how they were placed over there [indicating]? mr. newman. there was a group along this wall, there was a group over here that i could see [indicating]. mr. griffin. now, what's your estimate of the number of people that were in this group? mr. newman. oh, from what i could see, i would say maybe , just an estimate. mr. griffin. why don't you put about there? mr. newman. [indicating]. mr. griffin. now, how many people would you estimate were over in this cluster that you have marked there [indicating]? mr. newman. from what i could see, it appeared to be about the same number. mr. griffin. about there. and, how many deep were they? mr. newman. oh, i couldn't see that much detail. i could just tell there was a crowd of people. mr. griffin. now, would you try to indicate how people were spaced over in here [indicating]? mr. newman. well, if there were, they were very sparse. i would just say individually. mr. griffin. now, why don't you just write in there "sparse." mr. newman. [indicating]. mr. griffin. do you recall where the tv cameras were placed? mr. newman. yes, sir. mr. griffin. would you indicate on that where the tv cameras were? mr. newman. as i recall, there were three. mr. griffin. now, when you came into the basement the first time, did you see a tv camera over in this area here that i have pointed to [indicating]? mr. newman. not a large camera. there may have been a hand-held camera, but no large camera. mr. griffin. what i am indicating on here, so the record will reflect, i am pointing to the area roughly in front of the jail office door. for anyone reading this, i will indicate also that this is an area in which assistant chief batchelor indicated that sometime, that he is not sure of, in the early morning he saw a tv camera there, and he believes he had it moved. now, i take it you don't recall any equipment of any sort being in this area in here, in the garage [indicating]? mr. newman. tv equipment? mr. griffin. yes. in the entrance to the garage? mr. newman. no; i don't. mr. griffin. now, is this a railing, incidentally [indicating]? mr. newman. this is a small rail right here [indicating]. mr. griffin. all right. let me write across here "rail." now, from where you were standing, were you able to see over that rail? mr. newman. partially. mr. griffin. how high is that rail? mr. newman. it isn't over feet. mr. griffin. is it a solid thing or is it a metal set---- mr. newman. just made of pipes. mr. griffin. is it any different from the railings that's along the commerce street ramp? mr. newman. same type railing, i believe. mr. griffin. same type of railing. and the railing that's marked in solid on the other side of the entrance to the garage next to the chief parking area, which i will also label rail, that's the same kind of railing as the ones over near the tv cameras? mr. newman. yes. mr. griffin. so, your vision from where you were standing was not substantially obstructed by any permanent parts of the building, from where the marked curb on the ramp is, all the way down, perhaps to this, all the way down to this railing here [indicating]? mr. newman. it was somewhat obstructed by these columns, but nothing to keep me from getting an overall view of the area. mr. griffin. now, what do you recall happening after the automobile drove out of the drive and went up the commerce street ramp? mr. newman. i don't recall anything until i heard that "here he comes," called out. mr. griffin. what did you do when you heard the "here he comes"? mr. newman. i looked up in that direction. mr. griffin. and what did you see when you looked up in that direction? mr. newman. all i saw was the newsmen congregating to that area. mr. griffin. where did they seem to be pushing in from? mr. newman. well, they were making a round in this general area in here [indicating]. mr. griffin. you are indicating the area up in the ramp, main street ramp? mr. newman. yes. mr. griffin. how deep were they in the main street ramp, by that time? mr. newman. i would guess two or three, but that's just a guess. mr. griffin. now, does that include policemen, also? mr. newman. you mean the number of people? mr. griffin. yes. mr. newman. yes. mr. griffin. would you say the total number of people was two or three deep there? mr. newman. uh-huh. mr. griffin. was it solid across from this wall to the railing? mr. newman. well, i couldn't see that much detail. mr. griffin. now, as you looked over in that direction, after you heard "here he comes," and you saw this milling around, what is the next thing that you remember seeing? mr. newman. well, like i said, i saw these people congregating to this area. i did see a man come down this ramp [indicating]. mr. griffin. you saw a man come down the ramp? mr. newman. that's right. mr. griffin. when did you see him come down the ramp? mr. newman. it was just immediately after that was called out. mr. griffin. and whereabouts did you first see him when he was on the ramp? mr. newman. oh, i would say in about the location of this arrow [indicating]. mr. griffin. you want to put a mark there? mr. newman. [indicating]. mr. griffin. now, what did you see that man do? mr. newman. he just ran down in here [indicating]. mr. griffin. did he seem to run down into the center or to one side or what? mr. newman. from the angle i was looking, i couldn't tell. mr. griffin. now, did you see that man--how that man was dressed? mr. newman. no. mr. griffin. did you see that man emerge? mr. newman. no. mr. griffin. did you see jack ruby move forward at lee oswald? mr. newman. no; i didn't. mr. griffin. as you were standing here, could you see the areaway here [indicating]? mr. newman. i don't think i could because of the car that was parked here. i don't recall seeing the area. i don't recall not seeing it. i don't much think i could, though, because there was a car parked right here [indicating]. mr. griffin. all right. i am going to mark this in pencil. is that about where this car was [indicating]? mr. newman. i would say it was just about that location [indicating]. mr. griffin. all right. and is the way we have got this drawn here at this point, with the one pencil mark in there, the way the area from here on up, all the way up to here and the whole building appeared at the time oswald was shot, from this spot [indicating]? mr. newman. that's the way it appeared to me. mr. griffin. can you tell us anything about that area there [indicating]? mr. newman. no. i do remember one thing, now, that was--some half hour before that, where another automobile was parked, if you are interested. mr. griffin. yes; i am. mr. newman. it was parked, i would say, approximately here. i will mark this "second auto"; is that all right [indicating]? mr. griffin. just mark it "car one half hour before shooting." mr. newman. all right [indicating]. mr. griffin. now, was that car there at the time that oswald was shot? mr. newman. no; it wasn't. mr. griffin. now, did you see that car moved? mr. newman. i don't recall it being moved. it might possibly have been the car that left here. i do know there was a car over here. i wasn't paying that much attention as to what they were doing. this might possibly have been this car; i don't know. mr. griffin. you are not sure where the car that went up the ramp came from, but you did see a car go up the ramp? mr. newman. uh-huh. mr. griffin. did you see this car that moved through the line of newsman? mr. newman. not that i recall. i didn't pay any attention to it. mr. griffin. all right. you have indicated that this car you saw move out, moved out or minutes before the shooting. now, i know it's awful difficult, we have been here talking, and i frankly haven't any idea how long we have talked. maybe it is easier to pinpoint the movement of that car in terms of when you heard that pop bottle? mr. newman. all i know, it was sometime between the bottle and the shooting. i would say i can't pinpoint it even within minutes, but i do know it was a short time. mr. griffin. okay. i will mark this, "exhibit, dallas, texas, w. j. newman," no; i take that back. i will mark it, but i think it best that we go through this whole thing chronologically. w. j. newman, - - , exhibit . now, what did you do after the shot was fired? mr. newman. as soon as i heard the shot fired, i ran up into this place [indicating]. mr. griffin. i don't think we need to mark it. you stood at the base of the garage ramp? mr. newman. that's right. mr. griffin. what did you do at that point? mr. newman. well, this officer came up to about--well, opposite me---- mr. griffin. to make this, maybe, a little easier, let's take the pencil and you mark where you went to with pencil, and draw a line to it, and then mark where this other fellow went. why don't you put an arrow, so we know which direction we are moving? mr. newman. (indicating). mr. griffin. all right. do you remember what the name of that officer was? mr. newman. no; i don't. mr. griffin. now, what did you do as you got up to that spot? mr. newman. well, he or i, neither one had anyway of knowing what had happened, other than the fact a shot had been fired, and he said, "don't let anyone leave." there was a man came at me from this direction, running towards me. i stopped him [indicating]. mr. griffin. i see. was he a newspaper man or what? mr. newman. he later told me he was a member of one of these camera crews. mr. griffin. what did you do with him when you stopped him? mr. newman. we scuffled a couple of seconds there until he recognized i was a police officer. mr. griffin. were you in uniform? mr. newman. yes. and as i recall, he said, "i am not trying to leave. i will stay with you. i just want to get away from there," or something to that effect. he didn't stand there but for a minute. then he asked me if he could go back to the crew. i told him he could, but not to try to leave the building. i still didn't know what had happened. mr. griffin. why would he run off in that direction? mr. newman. i don't know. there was a man crouched behind this column here [indicating]. i assumed, i still do, he was probably just trying to find some place to go. those columns offered the most protection. mr. griffin. now, how long did you remain there after you stopped that man? mr. newman. until the ambulance arrived. mr. griffin. can you describe this man that you stopped? mr. newman. no; i can't. mr. griffin. did you ever learn what tv crew he was from? mr. newman. no. mr. griffin. now, after the ambulance came, did you continue to remain there? mr. newman. i moved up to the base of the commerce ramp here. there was another officer in plain clothes here--some newsmen tried to follow the ambulance out and we stopped them. mr. griffin. all right. that was a plain clothes officer, i think you said. mr. newman. i think we stopped him. he showed us his identification and he went on up the ramp. not more than, oh, or minutes after that, i assume they decided to let these men go where they wanted to. i don't know that for a fact, but at any rate i was sent out on the corner of main and harwood to direct traffic. there were quite a few police units coming in from different parts of town. mr. griffin. how long did you remain out on the corner of main and harwood? mr. newman. not over minutes. a motorcycle officer relieved me. mr. griffin. then what did you do? mr. newman. then i returned to the assembly room and i was sent out to parkland. mr. griffin. about what time did you arrive out at parkland hospital? mr. newman. i don't know exactly. from what happened, i would say : to : , but that's just an approximation. mr. griffin. how long did you remain out there? mr. newman. i was there until about : in the afternoon. mr. griffin. did you talk to anybody out there at parkland hospital? mr. newman. i talked to quite a few officers there. mr. griffin. where were you stationed at parkland hospital? mr. newman. i was right on the entrance where you turn into the hospital off of harry hines. mr. griffin. do you remember what police officers you talked to? mr. newman. i don't recall any except captain solomon. mr. griffin. now, at the time you were out there, did you tell anybody about having seen this man come down the main street ramp? mr. newman. no; at the time i didn't place any significance on it, because i still didn't know what happened. mr. griffin. now, when you were standing out there, did you hear any discussion about the name of the man who had shot oswald? mr. newman. not there. the officer who relieved me on the traffic detail there on the corner asked me if i knew it was jack ruby that had done it. that was all he said. mr. griffin. who was that officer that relieved you? mr. newman. i don't know his name. mr. griffin. that was at o'clock? mr. newman. no; it was at--oh, : or : , on the corner of harwood and main. mr. griffin. so, by the time you got to parkland hospital, you knew ruby had shot oswald? mr. newman. i knew a man named jack ruby had shot him. the name didn't mean anything to me. mr. griffin. did you relieve officer vaughn at the main street entrance? mr. newman. right here [indicating]. mr. griffin. oh, you went to main and harwood? mr. newman. that's right; i did. on the way back i did spend, oh, maybe minutes here at this entrance [indicating]. mr. griffin. you did? mr. newman. directing traffic. mr. griffin. and was officer vaughn there? mr. newman. i don't recall the officer's name. mr. griffin. now, when you got out to parkland hospital, did you tell anybody out there the name of the person who shot oswald? mr. newman. no. mr. griffin. do you remember some of the officers who were out there at parkland hospital? by this, i mean reserve officers as well as regular officers? mr. newman. i don't recall anyone by name except captain solomon. i haven't been in the reserve long enough to know too many of these men. i know there were reserves--or others and myself, who were transported out there in the squad car. mr. griffin. you don't know any of the reserve officers by name, outside of solomon? mr. newman. oh, yes; i know them, but i don't know any of those people. mr. griffin. i see. had you ever worked before with any of the reserve officers who were out there? mr. newman. i had gone through school with one of them. mr. griffin. which one was that? mr. newman. there again, i can't tell you his name. mr. griffin. can you describe him? mr. newman. he was--i would know his name if i saw it. oh, rather tall, i would say about ' ", wavy black hair, medium built. mr. griffin. does he wear glasses? mr. newman. i don't think so. mr. griffin. do you know what he does, where he is employed? mr. newman. no; i don't. mr. griffin. about how old is he? mr. newman. i guess late twenties. mr. griffin. do you know where he lives? mr. newman. no; i don't. mr. griffin. now, did you see this particular officer out at parkland hospital? mr. newman. [witness nods head.] mr. griffin. where did you see him? mr. newman. he relieved me sometime in the middle of the afternoon so i could go get a cup of coffee. mr. griffin. did you talk to him about what had happened down there in the basement? mr. newman. no. the only thing i said, i just relayed to him the instructions i had. mr. griffin. do you remember telling anybody out there about seeing a man coming down the ramp? mr. newman. no. mr. griffin. do you think that you did not tell anybody? mr. newman. i know i didn't. mr. griffin. you know you didn't tell anybody that. when did you first become aware that this might be significant, that you saw this man come down the ramp? mr. newman. when i was interviewed by lieutenant revill. it must have been the following sunday. mr. griffin. after you got off duty at parkland hospital, where did you go? mr. newman. i went back to the police and courts building and was assigned on the second floor, security detail. mr. griffin. is that where captain talbert was? mr. newman. i don't know the gentleman. it was right outside of the city planning office. mr. griffin. oh. was this on the second floor of the municipal building? mr. newman. the police and courts building. the city planning or---- mr. griffin. is that in the jail part of the building? mr. newman. yes. on the second floor, just to the right of the elevator, there is some city offices there other than the police department. mr. griffin. is that right? mr. newman. yes. mr. griffin. and you were on the elevator, stationed on the elevators there? mr. newman. no; i was at the stairway. mr. griffin. what were you to be doing there at the stairway? mr. newman. my instructions were that no one was to be in there except press, police, and anyone who had a business. there were several civilians who came into the building. i recall one witness who, in accident, he was escorted into where he was going and escorted out. mr. griffin. how long did you remain there? mr. newman. until about : p.m. about hours. mr. griffin. and then where did you go? mr. newman. i was relieved and went home. mr. griffin. all right. now, while you were there, did you talk to sergeant dean? mr. newman. well, no; but i didn't see sergeant dean the rest of the day. mr. griffin. at any time before you left duty, did anybody from the police department talk to you about writing a report or anything like that? mr. newman. no. mr. griffin. now, while you were standing around there before you left duty, did you hear any rumors about how jack ruby got in the building? what was the first rumor that you heard about how ruby got in the building? mr. newman. the first i heard was not over weeks ago in an account in a newspaper. mr. griffin. i don't understand. it was not over weeks ago in an account---- mr. newman. an article. the first--anything i had heard, rumor or otherwise, as to how he got into the building. mr. griffin. you mean weeks ago from today? mr. newman. during the trial, approximately weeks. mr. griffin. you didn't hear any rumors over television; didn't read any rumors in the newspaper? mr. newman. well, let me retract that. i do recall a statement that ruby himself made. i don't remember when it was. it was sometime in the months between the incident and the trial. i think he had boasted how easy it was, or he couldn't have planned it that well, or something. mr. griffin. do you take a daily newspaper? mr. newman. yes. mr. griffin. do you take any news magazines? mr. newman. no. mr. griffin. time? mr. newman. no. mr. griffin. life? mr. newman. [witness shakes head.] mr. griffin. saturday evening post? mr. newman. no. mr. griffin. read any magazines? mr. newman. yes; i read some magazines but no news magazines. mr. griffin. i mean, do you subscribe to any? mr. newman. yes. american rifleman and readers digest. mr. griffin. those are the only two magazines you subscribe to? mr. newman. yes. mr. griffin. do you take both daily newspapers in town? mr. newman. yes. mr. griffin. did you try to keep abreast of the articles on the ruby killing of oswald, after this event? mr. newman. i think i read just about every word that was printed. mr. griffin. and you didn't see a single rumor in any newspaper about how he got in? mr. newman. i won't say i didn't see it. i will say i don't recall it. mr. griffin. do you recall an article, for example, that was written about sergeant dean, where sergeant dean said, was quoted as saying he saw a man come down the main street ramp; do you recall that article? mr. newman. i don't. the reason i remember so well is because this article i saw weeks ago satisfied my curiosity. i had been curious all that time. i knew from what lieutenant leavelle told me, or from the remarks he made, that with the men with him there--he wasn't making the remarks to me, but i think, when i told him about this, he turned to the other men and said, "well, that's it." that's the only information i heard. the police officers i worked with and so forth had been very shut mouth. mr. griffin. when were you first requested to make a statement or prepare a letter or something of that sort for the use of the police department? mr. newman. it was the following sunday, the week from the day of--the day oswald was shot. mr. griffin. are you sure of that? mr. newman. first request? mr. griffin. yes. mr. newman. yes. mr. griffin. i am going to hand you what i have marked as newman exhibit no. . would you read that over [indicating]? mr. newman. i am going to have to back up. mr. griffin. now, this purports to be a copy of a letter which you signed and was addressed to chief curry and dated november , . did you prepare that letter? mr. newman. let me think. the tuesday night afterwards, lieutenant merrell gave me a mimeographed questionnaire for me to complete and return to him and i think i did it right there on the spot. it was a very vague type thing. when i say statement, i am talking about the statement that i did sign the following sunday, where they had this information that i had given them typed in the form of a statement. mr. griffin. now, in this statement you indicated that you saw lieutenant stuets and lieutenant crowey--sergeant crowey, of the reserves in the same area you were in? mr. newman. i saw them that morning. they were not in the same area that i was in. i had seen them in the basement that morning. i don't have any idea where they were at the time. i happen to know now where sergeant crowey was, but i found that out later. mr. griffin. when did you see sergeant crowey in the basement that morning? mr. newman. that i don't remember. it was sometime before the---- mr. griffin. what do you mean by this statement in here that, "names of other officers in the same area that i can't recollect." what do you mean by the same area? mr. newman. by the same area there i meant the basement proper. mr. griffin. where in the basement do you remember seeing him? mr. newman. i don't recall. mr. griffin. sergeant crowey? mr. newman. i don't recall any specific area. mr. griffin. where in the basement area did you recall seeing stuets? now, is lieutenant stuets or sergeant crowey, either one of them, this regular officer that you have got marked here with an "x"? mr. newman. no; i know that. mr. griffin. now, as far as that is concerned, then, you saw many officers in here who you would remember, whose names you would remember? mr. newman. no. the way i took that question and the way i answered it, those are the only two officers i saw that morning in the basement whose names i did remember. mr. griffin. did they help you search the basement? mr. newman. i don't believe so. they have been searching in another area, but they weren't right with me. mr. griffin. did you see captain arnett that day? mr. newman. let me try to--i know he was there, but i don't think i saw him. i may have seen him after the shooting. there was so much confusion then that i wasn't paying too much attention to who i was seeing. mr. griffin. do you know of an officer on the police force named blackie harrison? mr. newman. no; i don't. mr. griffin. do you recognize chief batchelor when you see him? mr. newman. i don't think i would. i have only seen the gentleman one time. mr. griffin. do you recognize captain butler when you see him? mr. newman. no; i don't. mr. griffin. do you recognize captain jones when you see him? mr. newman. no; i don't know him. mr. griffin. do you recognize officer lowery when you see him? mr. newman. i don't know him. mr. griffin. do you know any of the officers in the juvenile bureau? mr. newman. i would know one if i saw him. i don't know him. mr. griffin. do you know detective miller in the juvenile bureau? mr. newman. no. mr. griffin. would you recognize the name of this guy in the juvenile bureau, if i gave you his name? mr. newman. no; as far as i know, i have never heard it. i have only been in there, i think, twice. (pause.) mr. griffin. you are a d--- l---. i want you to come back tomorrow night and i want you----i want to question you some more. mr. newman. i certainly don't appreciate that accusation. i have given you all i can, to the best of my memory, for months. mr. griffin. i want you to regard yourself as still under the obligation to appear, that you are already under, by virtue of having waived any notice here, and i would like to recess to continue this deposition until o'clock tomorrow afternoon in this office. if you would care to consult with an attorney at that time, or anything like that, and would like to come in here with one, i would be most happy for you to do so. mr. newman. may i ask: what are you getting at? mr. griffin. well, frankly, after having sat here for an hour and having listened to this testimony, my own personal opinion, either you are absolutely not telling the truth or plenty of other people who have been in here aren't telling the truth. somehow i am going to see how the devil we can reconcile these differences. testimony of william j. newman resumed the testimony of william j. newman was taken at : p.m., on march , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. burt w. griffin, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. hubert. let the record show that at : , march , , the deposition of mr. w. j. newman, which was commenced last night with mr. burt w. griffin conducting the investigation, but which was not completed last night, is now being resumed by leon d. hubert, jr., staff member, conducting the deposition. mr. newman, are you willing to continue the deposition at this time? mr. newman. yes, sir. mr. hubert. will you understand that you are under the same oath that you were yesterday when the deposition began, and all through the deposition? mr. newman. yes, sir. mr. hubert. and that you regard yourself as being under the same oath? mr. newman. yes. mr. hubert. let the record show, also, that i have been designated by mr. j. lee rankin, general counsel of the commission, to take the sworn deposition of mr. william j. newman. mr. newman, i simply want to mark for identification so that we will all know what we are talking about certain papers and letters and reports so that we can refer to them by the designation marked on them. now, i notice that last night, apparently, the last exhibit number that was used by mr. griffin was no. , in connection with a letter dated november , or rather it is a copy of a letter dated november addressed to j. e. curry, chief of police, the original of which, apparently, signed w. j. newman. since i do not know what sequence of the letters mr. griffin has used since he started your deposition, i am going to number the documents that we will be talking about now by using the same basic number , adding the letters "a", "b", "c", etc., as far as we need to go. now, in that connection, i am marking an undated statement--an undated document, i beg your pardon, undated document entitled "statement of police reserve officer william j. newman." it is also unsigned. and it is to be found in the commission document -a point . for the purpose of identification, i am marking it "dallas, tex., march , . exhibits -a. deposition of w. j. newman." sign my name below it. then for the purposes of identification, also, i am marking a verifax or photostatic copy of "officer's memorandum dated december , , to lieutenant revill, from detective r. w. westphal," which document is to be found in commission document -a point . and, i am marking that "dallas, tex., march , . that's exhibit -b. deposition of w. j. newman," and signing my name below on that document. then the next document is a letter, or verifax or photostatic copy of a letter, dated december , , to j. e. curry, signed by jack revill, and c. c. wallace, purporting to be a report on an interview by reserve officer w. j.--william j. newman, no. , and for the purposes of identification i am marking that document "dallas, tex., march , . exhibit no. -c." continuing your identification, "dallas, tex., march , , exhibit -c. deposition of w. j. newman." i am signing my name on that document, which is also to be found in commission report--commission document no. -a point . finally, i am marking what purports to be a copy of the report by fbi agents james c. kennedy and leo l. robertson, concerning an interview with william j. newman on december , , and for identification i am marking that document, "dallas, tex., march , . exhibit -d. the deposition of w. j. newman." and signing my name on that document. now, mr. newman, you have had an opportunity, i think, to read these various documents there, , then -a, b, c and d. mr. newman. yes, sir. mr. hubert. the only purpose of asking you to read them and to compare them is to ask you if you can assist us at getting at the facts, and that is all we want to know. there seems to be some contradiction between them. maybe there is not. if there isn't and you can show us that there isn't, that is all we want to know. if there is a contradiction, we would like to have your explanation, if we can, as to what is the truth, because that is all we want to know anyhow. if there is a contradiction, it is obvious that one of the statements must be wrong, and all we want to do is tell us which is wrong and which is right. that is the sole purpose of this inquiry. mr. newman. be happy to; if i can. mr. hubert. perhaps i can get at it this way: these reports seem to indicate that you saw a man coming down the ramp. these records also seem to indicate that you saw a man climbing over a rail in the basement. now, i think we can clarify this situation immediately by asking you, do those reports relate to two different instances? mr. newman. that's correct. mr. hubert. in other words, there was a man climbing over the rail, and there was a man coming down the main street ramp, and as far as you know they are two different episodes? mr. newman. two different things. mr. hubert. two different things. all right. we got a lot clarified there. now, i think the other point is when did each of these happen, and let's take, first of all, the man coming down the ramp. mr. newman. this, as i stated there, was, as near as i can estimate, approximately minute or less prior to the shooting. mr. hubert. i think you said in your statement that because of the various conditions existing you could not identify the man by name or sight or anything of that sort? mr. newman. no. mr. hubert. that is to say when he was coming down the ramp? mr. newman. that's correct. i have also--i have never made any estimate. mr. hubert. no; that's correct. i didn't mean to intimate that you had. it is a fact that a man coming down--that you did see a man coming down, but you really don't know who he is, and that never have known? mr. newman. that's correct. mr. hubert. you have, of course, seen pictures and so forth of jack ruby since? mr. newman. that's right. mr. hubert. would you say that the man coming down the ramp was jack ruby? mr. newman. no; i wouldn't. by the same token, i wouldn't say that he wasn't. mr. hubert. in other words, you can't say whether he was or wasn't? mr. newman. that's right. i just didn't pay that much attention to it at the time. mr. hubert. and that was definitely about a minute before the shooting? mr. newman. that's correct. mr. hubert. so, i think we have that one clarified, so far as that is concerned. now, about the man jumping over the rail, what is your best thought about the timing on that? mr. newman. i have none. when i talked to lieutenant revill, i think this was sunday the st of december, i guess it would be, and he asked me two or three times whether i had seen a man go over the rail. i couldn't recall anyone. later, i think it was, oh, two days later, i am not sure, i did remember seeing someone go over that rail, but as i stated in that statement, i cannot, for the life of me, set the time in any figures. just something that registered, and that was the end of it. mr. hubert. so, that when you say "it", you couldn't tell whether it was before the shooting or after, you can't tell whether it was a minute before or a minute after, minutes before or minutes after, or for that matter more time before or more time after? mr. newman. well, i know not longer than or minutes after, because i wasn't there. i couldn't establish it at any time. mr. hubert. so, that your best recollection right now, today, is simply that you have a recollection of a man going over the rail from the parking area into the ramp. mr. newman. that's right. mr. hubert. about what part of the ramp was it; do you remember? mr. newman. about midway. mr. hubert. about midway? but, you don't know? mr. newman. just---- mr. hubert. the relation of it as to time of the shooting, except that it couldn't have been when you weren't there, obviously. mr. newman. that's right. mr. hubert. you remember how the man was dressed? mr. newman. no. mr. hubert. i'll ask you this, too: do you know whether it was, or was not, or do you have any opinion on whether it was or was not jack ruby, or do you have any opinion as to who it was at all? mr. newman. i have no opinion whatsoever. i would like to say in that, since we are talking about this incident, that when i talked to detective westphal--was it? mr. hubert. yes, sir. mr. newman. lieutenant revill was out of town. he didn't indicate to me that he placed any importance on it whatsoever. i was not aware of the fact that he had even written a memo on it. mr. griffin, last night, did not bring it up, and i, after talking to him, dropped the subject. didn't see fit to bring it up, or didn't even remember it. mr. hubert. what is this undated statement which we have identified as -a, the one that is also unsigned? do you know anything about that at all? mr. newman. i don't know. i would guess probably that information was taken down at the time i talked to him on the telephone. that is, by and large, the statement i made to him. mr. hubert. you had called him on the telephone as indicated, in fact, by exhibit -b, when westphal reports on it, says, "subject." that means you, "called this date." did he ask you when--in other words, he left a call for you, is that correct? mr. newman. now, i called him. mr. hubert. you called him to tell him what? mr. newman. just to give him that information that i had remembered since i talked to him the previous time, because at the time he seemed to think it was fairly important. mr. hubert. now, did you go out to parkland hospital? mr. newman. yes. mr. hubert. did you speak to a man, reserve officer by the name of holly? mr. newman. i don't recall. i spoke to several reserve officers. i can't recall any of them as to who they were. mr. hubert. do you remember telling anyone of them about having seen either of these two men that we just talked about, that is to say, the man coming down the rail, or coming down the ramp, or the man coming over the rail? mr. newman. no, at the time i didn't even recall placing any significance on the fact, because at the time i didn't even know what had happened. mr. hubert. you don't recall talking to anybody about either of these two episodes, the man going down the ramp and the man jumping over the rail while you were at parkland that day? mr. newman. no, i didn't. mr. hubert. i gather from your statement, but i think i had better get it exactly straight, that you did not do anything with respect to either of the two men? mr. newman. no, i had no contact with them. mr. hubert. i didn't mean that contact, so much as i meant taking some police action. mr. newman. no, that is what i meant too. mr. hubert. all right. do you know an officer by the name of brock? reserve officer, i believe. mr. newman. no, i don't. i don't recognize the name. mr. hubert. and one by the name of worley? mr. newman. no, i don't recognize that name either. i might know him on sight if i see him. mr. hubert. well, have you any other comments to make? i think the thing is clarified. mr. newman. no, we had our misunderstanding last night. i didn't know what needed to be clarified. i know i was thoroughly shaky and possibly not too accurate as to the details of what happened in that basement prior to the shooting in the hour or hour and a half, but that wasn't my concern, and i didn't pay too much attention. i just gave it as best i remembered. mr. hubert. well, i wasn't at the deposition last night, so i don't know what went on, and i, therefore, will not ask you any further questions. have you had any interview with me prior to taking of this deposition today? mr. newman. no. mr. hubert. all right. i think that is all. thank you for coming very much. mr. newman. i do have one other thing here that mr. griffin seemed to be concerned about last night, in that i couldn't identify a man, a reserve officer i had met in the basement of the garage, or immediately after i got there by name. that that you are holding is a class picture that was made. i can now identify--i have a list of names in my pocket if you want them. mr. hubert. the only way for it to be of the use would be if you would let me mark the picture and put it in the record. mr. newman. you may have it if you like. i don't know whether it is of any importance or not. mr. hubert. i don't either, but--do you want it to go in? mr. newman. not necessarily. i am leaving it up to you. mr. hubert. as i say, i don't know what the question was last night about identification, and you have brought this matter up; i am perfectly willing to hear what you have to say about it. i think it would be better, if you comment about it, to put it in the record, but on the other hand maybe it wouldn't be necessary. why don't you say what you have to say about it and then we can judge better? mr. newman. as near as i can recall, when he was questioning me about what officers i had seen in the basement that morning whom i knew, and the subject came up that i had seen one man but i could not remember his name. he asked me at that time for a description of him and i gave it to him. after looking at that picture last night when i got home, and with the list of names i had for the picture, i can now give the man's name, if you would like it. mr. hubert. yes; go ahead. mr. newman. third from the left--second from the left on the back row. casten, jerome casten. mr. hubert. jerome casten. now, that was the reserve officer that mr. griffin was questioning you about last night, and, as i understand it, you testified that you did remember seeing a man, and you gave his description, but at that time you did not know his name? mr. newman. that's correct. mr. hubert. with the aid of this picture, which as i understand, is a class picture--i see captain solomon there, by the way--you identified him as the second man in the top row from the left, and you stated his name to be---- mr. newman. jerome casten. mr. hubert. jerome casten. i think it would be better if you would allow this to go in. i am, therefore, marking the picture on the reverse side thereof by placing the following on it, to wit: "dallas, texas, march , . exhibit -e, deposition of w. j. newman." then i am signing my name below that, i am placing an "x" over the man you have identified, and placing my initials next to the "x"; is that correct, sir? mr. newman. that's right. i don't remember seeing that man throughout the rest of the day, and to the best of my knowledge he was assigned somewhere other than the basement quite sometime prior to the shooting. mr. hubert. now, in order that the record may show that we were both talking about the same document all the time, i wonder if you would mind placing your name below mine on each one of these? mr. newman. all right, sir. mr. hubert. thank you very much. testimony of bobby g. patterson the testimony of bobby g. patterson was taken at : p.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. leon d. hubert, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. hubert. this is the deposition of bobby g. patterson. mr. patterson, my name is leon hubert. i am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the president's commission. under the provisions of executive order , dated november , , joint resolution of congress , and the rules of procedure adopted by the commission, in conformance with the executive order and the joint resolution, i have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, mr. patterson. i state to you now that the general nature of the commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of president kennedy and the subsequent violent death of lee harvey oswald. in particular as to you, mr. patterson, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of oswald, and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry, including what you know about what jack ruby might have had to do with it. mr. patterson, i think you have appeared here by virtue of an individual request made to you to appear here--was that by a letter? mr. patterson. by a letter. mr. hubert. when was that letter addressed to you by j. lee rankin, general counsel of the commission--when did you receive it? mr. patterson. monday. mr. hubert. yesterday? mr. patterson. sunday. mr. hubert. sunday. mr. patterson. i came back sunday. mr. hubert. do you have any objection to testifying now? mr. patterson. no. mr. hubert. the reason i say that is that under the rules of the commission a person is supposed to have a -day notice before they can be required to testify, but the rules also provide that you can waive it if you want to. if you are willing to testify and waive the days notice, we can go ahead. mr. patterson. i am as willing as he is. mr. hubert. all right; would you stand up and raise your right hand and i will administer the oath. do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. patterson. yes. mr. hubert. will you state your name, please, sir? mr. patterson. bobby g. patterson. mr. hubert. how old are you, sir? mr. patterson. thirty-three. mr. hubert. and what is your residence? mr. patterson. mesquite, tex., caracas [spelling] c-a-r-a-c-a-s. mr. hubert. your occupation is what? mr. patterson. patrolman, dallas police department. mr. hubert. how long have you been on the dallas police department? mr. patterson. oh, about - / years. mr. hubert. what did you do before that? mr. patterson. i worked for american beauty flour co. down here on south ervay. mr. hubert. mr. patterson, i have shown you a document which for the purpose of identification i have marked in the right margin the words, "dallas, tex., april , . exhibit , patrolman bobby g. patterson," and i have put my name on it, and since it contains a second page, i have put my initials at the bottom of the second page, and i ask you if you have read that document? mr. patterson. i have. mr. hubert. that purports to be a report of an interview of you made by special agents horton and propst [spelling] p-r-o-p-s-t, on november , , does it not; is that correct? mr. patterson. i believe it is--i wouldn't say for sure--it was on saturday, i believe--i don't know when it was. mr. hubert. in any case, i ask you if you think that this report identified as exhibit is a fair report of the interview that you had with the fbi agents? mr. patterson. it is a fair report. mr. hubert. is there anything that you would like to add or delete or modify with respect to exhibit ? mr. patterson. no, that's just about it. as far as the time, now, i don't know about some of the time in my report and every report and stuff like that--i don't know if that makes any difference or not. that is as near as i could get it. mr. hubert. well, let me ask you this--you say you are not sure about the times that are stated in this report, exhibit . i take it that you weren't sure really at the time that they interviewed you; is that correct? mr. patterson. yes--you know, the correct time? mr. hubert. well, of course, i note that where this exhibit does mention time, it says "about." mr. patterson. well, that's what i put it, "about." mr. hubert. you did not know ruby at all? mr. patterson. i did not. mr. hubert. and you were at the top of the commerce street ramp? mr. patterson. the ramp; yes, sir. mr. hubert. from about : on--you never left it? mr. patterson. i never left it. mr. hubert. as far as you know, no one unidentified was there? mr. patterson. no one without proper identification. mr. hubert. tell us what you understood was meant by "proper identification"? mr. patterson. well, he said not to let no one in except police and reporters unless they had proper identification. mr. hubert. you said they told you--who was that? mr. patterson. the sergeant. mr. hubert. sergeant dean? mr. patterson. yes, sir. mr. hubert. now, of course, with respect to police, i guess their uniform would establish their identity? mr. patterson. no, they have a regular identification. mr. hubert. and you were instructed to have them show their official identification? mr. patterson. yes, sir. mr. hubert. you did so? mr. patterson. yes, sir. mr. hubert. what about the identification of newsmen? mr. patterson. well, the best i could tell, they pulled out all the identification--part of them had pictures of who they worked for, where they lived, some of them didn't have nothing, some of them had stickers and i had to turn one of them back--i did--he come up there in a wrr truck and got out of it but didn't have no identification and he had to go back and get some. mr. hubert. in other words, as far as you were concerned, you were not satisfied if a man just simply had a badge on saying "press"? mr. patterson. no. mr. hubert. you went further and required something that would satisfy you? mr. patterson. yes--anybody can pick up a press badge. mr. hubert. and you actually turned back some people who claimed to be the press, but you weren't satisfied with their identification? mr. patterson. yes. mr. hubert. did you require a picture? mr. patterson. some of them had pictures and some of them didn't--some of them had where they lived--on down further who they worked for and what press--and they had cameras on. mr. hubert. well, if they had that sort of thing, you figured that that was proper? mr. patterson. well, it's proper identification--you know half of them didn't know they were supposed to have the pictures. of course, i don't guess the chief or anybody notified them to have pictures like they did down at the county. mr. hubert. but you considered that the identification you required as to newsmen, when they didn't have a picture, would be such as would satisfy you in normal police work in identifying anybody? mr. patterson. yes. mr. hubert. driver's license and things of that sort? mr. patterson. well, sometimes i would have them show me their driver's license and that on top of their identification too, to make sure that was the same person. mr. hubert. so, you stayed in that position i guess from about : until actually---- mr. patterson. almost o'clock, i believe. mr. hubert. after the killing--after the ambulance went through? mr. patterson. yes. mr. hubert. had you been given any instructions as to how the transfer was to take place? mr. patterson. all they told me was that he would be transferred by armored car and for me to stay on the right side of it--of the armored car--as it was being backed in, and i stayed there. mr. hubert. now, i have previously handed you another document which i have marked for identification by writing on the margin as follows: "dallas, texas, april , , exhibit , deposition of patrolman bobby g. patterson," and i have signed my name below. now, i show you that document? mr. patterson. yes. mr. hubert. you have seen it and have read it? mr. patterson. yes. mr. hubert. you consider that it is correct and states the truth? mr. patterson. yes. mr. hubert. do you have any modifications or adjustments? mr. patterson. it is about as true as i could get it. mr. hubert. no deletions or anything to add? mr. patterson. no, sir. mr. hubert. did you know a man by the name of larry crafard? mr. patterson. who? mr. hubert. larry crafard or curtis laverne crafard? mr. patterson. no. mr. hubert. do you have a telephone, sir? mr. patterson. yes. mr. hubert. what is your telephone number, please? mr. patterson. broadway - . mr. hubert. how long have you had that number? mr. patterson. oh, about--almost a year. mr. hubert. are you familiar at all with the telephone number wh- - ? mr. patterson. no, sir; i never heard tell of it. mr. hubert. do you know a man by the name of robert carl patterson, also known as bobby patterson? mr. patterson. no. mr. hubert. your middle initial is "g" and that stands for what? mr. patterson. gene [spelling] g-e-n-e. mr. hubert. so that you are not a person by the name of robert carl patterson? mr. patterson. no. mr. hubert. have you ever lived at east waco street, dallas? mr. patterson. no. mr. hubert. mr. patterson, i am going to show you a page in an exhibit which has been re-marked, "dallas, texas, april , , exhibit , deposition of andrew armstrong," on which i have signed my name, and that same group of pages has also been marked crafard exhibit no. , in connection with the testimony of another witness? on one of the pages thereof, i show you the number "wh- - , bobby [spelling] b-o-b-b-y patterson." is that your handwriting? mr. patterson. it isn't mine--no. mr. hubert. do you know anything about that at all? mr. patterson. i sure don't--i haven't heard tell of that number. mr. hubert. have you been interviewed previous to this time by any member of the commission's staff? mr. patterson. i never have. mr. hubert. thank you; that's all. mr. patterson. okay. testimony of rio s. pierce the testimony of rio s. pierce was taken at : p.m., on march , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. leon d. hubert, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. hubert. this is the deposition of lt. rio s. pierce, with the dallas police department. lieutenant pierce, my name is leon d. hubert, jr. i am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel on the president's commission. under the provisions of the executive order no. , dated november , , the joint resolution of congress no. , and the rules of procedure adopted by the commission in conformance with the executive order and that joint resolution, i have been authorized to take the sworn deposition from you, lieutenant pierce. i state to you now that the general nature of the commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of president kennedy and the subsequent violent death of lee harvey oswald. in particular to you, lieutenant pierce, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. lieutenant pierce, you have appeared today by virtue of a general request made to chief curry by j. lee rankin, the general counsel of the commission. under the rules adopted by the commission you are entitled to have a -day written notice prior to the taking of the deposition, but the rules also provide that you may waive that -day written notice if you see fit to do so, and i ask you---- lieutenant pierce. i waive that. mr. hubert. may i ask you to stand and raise your right hand so that you can be sworn? do you solemnly swear to tell the truth the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? lieutenant pierce. i do. mr. hubert. will you please state your name? lieutenant pierce. rio s. pierce. mr. hubert. age? lieutenant pierce. forty. mr. hubert. your residence, please? lieutenant pierce. south edgefield. mr. hubert. what is your occupation? lieutenant pierce. police officer, city of dallas. mr. hubert. and how long have you been so occupied? lieutenant pierce. about / years. mr. hubert. how long have you held the rank of lieutenant? lieutenant pierce. four years. mr. hubert. what were your specific duties and responsibilities on november , ? lieutenant pierce. do you have reference to normal duties, or on this specific day? mr. hubert. on this specific day. lieutenant pierce. on this specific day i had instructions to secure the basement of the city hall. mr. hubert. from whom did you receive those instructions? lieutenant pierce. from captain talbert. mr. hubert. is he one of your superior officers? lieutenant pierce. yes; captain of the radio patrol, lieutenant commander and---- mr. hubert. what time did he give you those orders, sir? lieutenant pierce. i would say about to : . mr. hubert. did he direct you as to what you were to do in order to secure the basement area? lieutenant pierce. no, sir; other than securing enough men from the other stations to secure the basement properly and make arrangements for whatever manpower was needed for the transfer. mr. hubert. all right. would you state for the record what you actually did in connection with carrying out those orders? lieutenant pierce. well, while we were responsible for the routine work of the department, we had to determine what manpower would be pulled on the various substations that we had, and those men were called in to the central station to be used as they were needed. sergeant dean was assigned the security of the basement, and he was assisted by sergeant putnam, and as i recall, there was a total of about men that were called off their districts to help in this work. mr. hubert. did you, yourself, do any of the inspection work, or the searching out work? lieutenant pierce. no, sir; sergeant dean made the assignment of the men, and approximately an hour later, i guess maybe : , i did make an inspection of the basement, and apparently everything had been checked out, and it was considered secure. mr. hubert. what did your inspection consist of at the time? lieutenant pierce. looking over the basement. mr. hubert. did you walk around? lieutenant pierce. yes, sir; i walked around the basement and checked various entrances to the city hall basement. mr. hubert. do you know a reserve officer by the name of brock? lieutenant pierce. i can't recall right now. i know the name, i am sure that i know him by sight, but i don't connect the name with the person. mr. hubert. did you notice that there had been placed a uniformed officer, reserve or otherwise, near the service elevator in the basement? lieutenant pierce. are you talking about in the new building? mr. hubert. yes, sir; the elevator that goes up into the municipal building. lieutenant pierce. as well as i remember, there was an officer. i believe his name was brock. a police officer by the name of brock. i'm not certain, but those elevators had been cut off for---- mr. hubert. well, the two regular elevators had, but what about the service elevator that had two doors, one leading into the basement and another one leading on the other side of the basement? are you familiar with the elevator at all? lieutenant pierce. yes, sir; it has a back door to it leading out into the alley, and that is the elevator i believe, that was brought down and cut off and an officer stationed there to see that it didn't run. mr. hubert. were you aware of any planned route from the basement area to the county jail? lieutenant pierce. my instructions were that i would escort the armored car, which would be a decoy, from commerce street ramp to central northbound. to elm street onto houston street, which would be the entrance to the county jail. mr. hubert. who did you receive those orders from? lieutenant pierce. from chief curry and chief stevenson. mr. hubert. about what time did you get those orders? lieutenant pierce. i would assume it was about : . mr. hubert. what did you do then? lieutenant pierce. i immediately left. i received these instructions in the homicide office, which is on the third floor of the city hall. immediately left there and rode the elevator down to the basement where i secured a car and i found that the normal exit, which is the exit on commerce street from the basement of the city hall, was blocked by an armored car. it was necessary for me to use the main street exit. i mean--actually, the main street entrance, because we don't exit---- mr. hubert. but you used it as an exit? lieutenant pierce. i used it as an exit. mr. hubert. who was with you? lieutenant pierce. sergeant putnam was in the front seat with me and sergeant maxey was in the back seat. mr. hubert. well, tell us what happened along the route then? lieutenant pierce. well, we pulled out of the basement, and i would judge from the time, from the length of time, probably a length it would take it to circle city hall. mr. hubert. when you got to the top of the basement, were there any guards there on the main street entrance? lieutenant pierce. patrolman vaughn was stationed at the top of the ramp. mr. hubert. you knew him prior to that time? lieutenant pierce. yes, sir. mr. hubert. what happened then? lieutenant pierce. well, actually, nothing happened outside of the fact that he had to move out of the way to let us out. mr. hubert. which way did he move? lieutenant pierce. he moved toward the street. mr. hubert. i mean on which side of you? lieutenant pierce. he moved to my right. mr. hubert. and towards the street? lieutenant pierce. and towards the street; yes, sir. mr. hubert. what way was he facing then during the period that you were moving by him? lieutenant pierce. he was facing me, as well as i remember. mr. hubert. that is---- lieutenant pierce. momentarily, anyway. mr. hubert. in fact, he would have been looking from where he was standing toward the main street entrance? lieutenant pierce. yes, sir. mr. hubert. did you see him turn his head any at all? lieutenant pierce. no, sir; i couldn't see him for just a matter of a second there when i pulled out. that ramp is steep and a little bit difficult to get out there. mr. hubert. did he step out in the street at all? lieutenant pierce. not to my knowledge. mr. hubert. now, did you turn, immediately outside the main street entry or exit, to your right? lieutenant pierce. i was aware that people were pressed, not a large number of them, but i would say maybe four or five. mr. hubert. on your right? lieutenant pierce. no, well, probably might have been a--i don't know. just a guess. i don't recall the number of people now, what it would be. mr. hubert. do you recall whether there were some people on your right? lieutenant pierce. i was aware that people were on both sides of the car when i pulled across the sidewalk. mr. hubert. and how far from the entrance? lieutenant pierce. well, probably or feet. mr. hubert. did you recognize anybody at all? lieutenant pierce. nobody except one by the name of vaughn. mr. hubert. now, subsequently, of course, it turned out that ruby shot oswald. did you know him prior to that time? lieutenant pierce. no. mr. hubert. ruby? lieutenant pierce. yes, sir; i have known him or years, i guess. mr. hubert. so, you would recognize him without any difficulty whether he had a hat on or not? lieutenant pierce. i don't think i would have any trouble recognizing him if i saw him. mr. hubert. you did not, see him in that crowd to your right? lieutenant pierce. no; i didn't see him that day at all. mr. hubert. do you think that if he had been there he would have recognized you? lieutenant pierce. i'm saying the possibilities are very great that had he been there i might not have seen him. i mean, due to the time element and more or less concerned with getting across the sidewalk and into the street, driving the automobile at the same time. i am saying the possibilities are very good that i might not have seen him had he been there. i'd be very hesitant to say that i wouldn't. mr. hubert. i'm going to mark for identification three documents. first, i am marking, "dallas, texas, march th, , exhibit . deposition of rio pierce" and putting my name underneath that, and my initial on the second page and in the right-hand lower corner, that being a copy of a letter dated november , , addressed to chief curry. the second document also consisting of two pages, a report of an interview with you by fbi agents smith and chapoton, on december , in . i am marking that, "dallas, texas, march , . exhibit , deposition of rio pierce." signing my name on the front page of that, and i place my initials on the lower right-hand corner of the second page. and i am marking a third document on the right-hand margin, "dallas, texas, march , . exhibit , deposition of rio pierce." signing my name on that front page and placing my initials in the lower right-hand corner of the second and third pages. that last document, to wit: , purports to be a report of an interview by fbi agents chapoton and smith of you, rio pierce, on december , . now, i ask you if you have had an opportunity to look at these documents? lieutenant pierce. yes, sir. mr. hubert. are those documents correct and true? lieutenant pierce. to the best of my knowledge, they are. mr. hubert. are there any omissions of a material nature? lieutenant pierce. i don't recall any. mr. hubert. anything you would like to delete as not being the truth, or add because it has been omitted? lieutenant pierce. no; i don't see anything in there that i would care to change. mr. hubert. as far as you know, this represents the truth as you know it? lieutenant pierce. yes, sir. mr. hubert. now, maxey was in your car, was he not? lieutenant pierce. yes, sir. mr. hubert. was he in the rear? lieutenant pierce. yes. mr. hubert. did he ever talk to you about having seen daniels at the exit? n. j. daniels? lieutenant pierce. you mean since then? mr. hubert. well, since the day you drove out of there. in other words, have you and maxey ever, at all, conversed about whether he, maxey, saw daniels? lieutenant pierce. it is possible. i don't recall. people talk about a lot of things since then. mr. hubert. now, there has been no interview between you and any member of the commission's staff before this deposition today, has there? lieutenant pierce. no. mr. hubert. anything else you want to say or add or change? lieutenant pierce. i don't know of a thing. mr. hubert. thank you very much, sir. testimony of sgt. james a. putnam the testimony of sgt. james a. putnam was taken at : p.m., on march , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. leon d. hubert, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. hubert. all right. this is the deposition of sgt. james a. putnam, dallas police department. sergeant putnam, my name is leon hubert, jr., i am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel on the president's commission. under the provisions of the executive order , dated november , , by president of the united states, the joint resolution of congress no. and the rules of procedure adopted by the president's commission in conformance with the executive order and the joint resolution, i have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, mr. putnam. i state to you now that the general nature of the commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of president kennedy and the subsequent violent death of lee harvey oswald. in particular to you, sergeant putnam, the nature of this inquiry tonight is to determine what facts you know about the death of oswald and any other pertinent facts you know, now, about the general inquiry. sergeant putnam, you have appeared by virtue of a general request made to chief curry by the general counsel of the staff of the president's commission, mr. j. lee rankin. under the rules adopted by the commission you are entitled to a -day written notice prior to the taking of this deposition, but the rules also provide that a witness may waive the -day written notice. now, i'll ask you if you are willing to waive that -day written notice? sergeant putnam. what is the purpose? mr. hubert. simply this, that any witness--the commission says that any witness should have a privilege of having days' written notice before he may be called upon to testify, and that in writing. now, you have not had that, because of the way the request came. you see, the request came by letter to mr. curry from mr. rankin, who is the general counsel of the president's commission, and---- sergeant putnam. may i ask why it was done by this method rather than the normal official notice? mr. hubert. simply because of the number of people that were involved. if you wish to have the normal -day notice---- sergeant putnam. well, will any further--will there be necessary for me to appear at any further date? also, are we going to conclude it tonight? i will waive it for tonight and request if there is a further need for me to arrive at this time, that i receive it if--it has got my only day off in weeks. i will waive it at this time and request it if you do need me again, but i do get the -day official notice. mr. hubert. we certainly will do so. first, let me say this in regard to the time and so forth and being your day off. the actual sequence of witnesses and the times they appear was not arranged by us. i don't want to place the blame on anyone but i am awfully sorry. sergeant putnam. that's all right. mr. hubert. let me say that if we want to call you in again, you will surely get the notice, but i don't believe you will be. however, i can't be absolutely certain. i will get in touch with you by phone and be sure that we don't disturb any of your rest days, because i know how important that is. would you stand up and raise your right hand and take the oath. do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you god? sergeant putnam. i do. mr. hubert. all right. please state your full name, please. sergeant putnam. james a. putnam. mr. hubert. and your age? sergeant putnam. thirty-seven. mr. hubert. and your residence? sergeant putnam. joan drive. mr. hubert. dallas? sergeant putnam. dallas, tex. mr. hubert. what is your present occupation and how long have you held it? sergeant putnam. police officer. ten years and four months. mr. hubert. and the rank you have now? sergeant putnam. sergeant. mr. hubert. how long have you been sergeant? you have held that for how long? sergeant putnam. eight months. mr. hubert. did you have the same rank and responsibilities during the period of november and ? sergeant putnam. yes, sir. mr. hubert. who do you serve under, sir? sergeant putnam. lieutenant pierce. mr. hubert. and lieutenant pierce is with the patrol division? sergeant putnam. that's right. mr. hubert. he is under captain talbert? sergeant putnam. yes, sir. mr. hubert. now, then, captain talbert is your superior officer, too---- sergeant putnam. also. mr. hubert. in the line of command. now, i have in my hand, two documents which i am going to mark--three documents which i am going to mark. marking the first one as follows, to wit: "dallas, texas, march , , exhibit . deposition of j. a. putnam," and i am signing my name on that. the document is supposed to be a copy of a letter dated november , addressed by james a. putnam to chief of police j. e. curry, and it has two pages. i am placing my initials on the second page. i am marking another document as follows, "dallas, texas, march th, , exhibit . deposition of j. a. putnam." i am signing my name on that page, the exhibit being a single page exhibit. then i am marking a four-page exhibit being a report of an interview of you made on december the , by special agents carris and peden of the fbi. i am marking the first page in the bottom right hand, "dallas, texas, march , , exhibit . deposition of j. a. putnam." i am signing my name on the first page below that, and putting my initials in the lower right-hand corner of the three subsequent pages on that exhibit. have you had a chance to read these three documents that i have marked? sergeant putnam. i thought there were two. i would like to see the second one you marked. it may be another interview by the fbi. now, is that correct? mr. hubert. yes. sergeant putnam. i wasn't aware that this was separate. i know i read the first one. yes; i had missed that page. that was---- mr. hubert. what i want to ask you about all three of them, as a group, if we can handle them that way, and if we can't---- sergeant putnam. i believe we can. mr. hubert. if they represent the truth, if there are any errors in any of those exhibits, if there are any omissions, do you wish to add anything, delete anything or modify anything? sergeant putnam. no, sir; i accept them as they are. mr. hubert. all right, would you do this, then. would you put your name below my name where it appears and your initials below my initials that appear. now, sergeant, i have only a very few questions, i think, to ask you about this, because as i read your statements they are rather complete, taking the three together. they just give about everything you know about the whole thing. sergeant putnam. yes, sir. mr. hubert. as i understand from this, you were in the basement area, from about : until shortly before : ? sergeant putnam. yes, sir. mr. hubert. you assisted, i think, in the searches made of the basement area? sergeant putnam. that's correct. mr. hubert. you made some of these searches yourself? sergeant putnam. yes, sir. mr. hubert. do you know jack ruby? sergeant putnam. no, i--now, i---- mr. hubert. well, you know him now, of course. did you on november , prior to the time that oswald was shot, did you know of the existence of a person named jack ruby? sergeant putnam. i had heard the name. but so far as ever meeting him personally, i don't think that i ever had. if i did, i don't remember it from seeing his pictures. mr. hubert. that is what i wanted to ask you, on the th, if you had met him and had formed a sufficient impression upon your mind so that you would have recognized him at all? mr. putnam. no, sir. mr. hubert. of course, you did see his picture and perhaps you saw him after his arrest? sergeant putnam. i saw his picture. i have not seen him personally. mr. hubert. you didn't see him in the basement area? mr. putnam. no, sir. mr. hubert. do you know of anyone who did? sergeant putnam. that saw him in the basement? mr. hubert. yes. sergeant putnam. prior to the shooting? mr. hubert. yes. mr. putnam. no, sir. mr. hubert. have you been in any discussion with anybody as to who might have seen him and who might not have? sergeant putnam. no, sir. i--there have been discussions to the effect that if he were there, surely someone would have seen him and recognized him. i mean, just in informal discussions, how could he be there. mr. hubert. and yet, of course, he was there? sergeant putnam. i understand that. mr. hubert. but, you know of no evidence that would indicate that anyone did actually see him? sergeant putnam. no, sir. mr. hubert. you have never heard anyone say that he had seen him? sergeant putnam. no, sir. mr. hubert. have you heard anyone say that they knew that someone had seen him there? sergeant putnam. no, sir. mr. hubert. in other words, the discussions have been simply that since he was there it is just amazing that he was not seen my anybody? sergeant putnam. except when i evaluate it. having worked with those reporters and around them i can understand how that could have happened, because with as many a number of reporters that we dealt with for those days, it's a tough job knowing everyone personally. mr. hubert. i think you were directed to get into a car with a couple of people and drive around to the commerce street side? sergeant putnam. yes, sir. mr. hubert. who gave you that direction? sergeant putnam. sergeant dean. mr. hubert. now, when you drove out you were driving the car, weren't you? sergeant putnam. that's--no, sir. mr. hubert. weren't you? didn't you drive the car? sergeant putnam. no, sir. mr. hubert. who drove it? sergeant putnam. lieutenant pierce. mr. hubert. oh, i'm sorry. did you see lieutenant pierce leave with the car? sergeant putnam. i was in the car. mr. hubert. where were you seated in the car? sergeant putnam. in the front seat. mr. hubert. i'm sorry. the front right seat? sergeant putnam. yes. mr. hubert. who was in the back seat? sergeant putnam. sergeant maxey. mr. hubert. when did you first get seated in the car? sergeant putnam. are you referring to time? mr. hubert. let's get it this way, i understand that you had to get out of the car to move some of the people out of the way so that the car could go up the ramp. sergeant putnam. that's correct. mr. hubert. so, you were seated in the car in the basement or parking area at first when you started off? sergeant putnam. actually on the ramp that comes from the parking area to the ramp that goes between the two streets. mr. hubert. got in the car there? sergeant putnam. right. mr. hubert. did you have to get out? sergeant putnam. yes, sir. mr. hubert. when did you have to get out? sergeant putnam. after he traveled about to feet. mr. hubert. why did you have to get out? sergeant putnam. because the reporters had formed on the north. mr. hubert. main street? sergeant putnam. on the north. mr. hubert. why don't you just use the street directions. main street ramp? sergeant putnam. main street ramp, but by the "ramp" i don't mean the incline, where it flattens out. mr. hubert. i understand. on that flat part. sergeant putnam. that's right. so, i had to get out of the car and move them back to prevent hitting some of them. mr. hubert. how many people were in that area do you think? sergeant putnam. i would estimate to . mr. hubert. and they were standing shoulder to shoulder? sergeant putnam. i didn't get--this impression. they were standing in wait of the expected departure of oswald, and they were just mingled, and you know how reporters act and operate in trying to position themselves. mr. hubert. it wasn't enough that you were able to blow the horn, you had to get out? sergeant putnam. we didn't even attempt to blow the horn to cause confusion. first of all, this is the entrance and not the exit. they are not expecting a vehicle coming out of there, they are not paying attention to us. they are looking in the direction they expect oswald to come out from, so, i got out and---- mr. hubert. when the path cleared up, you got back in again? sergeant putnam. right. mr. hubert. was the window on the right down? sergeant putnam. the window was down. mr. hubert. now, when you got to the top of the ramp, what happened? that is when you got to the main street, the sidewalk area, and, of course, the street area, would you describe in your own words just what happened? what did you see? sergeant putnam. i saw officer vaughn and about six persons. mr. hubert. where was vaughn now when you first saw him? sergeant putnam. in front of our automobile about the middle of the sidewalk. mr. hubert. what did he do? sergeant putnam. he stepped to the right and about to the curb, or just off of the curb, glanced to his right and looked back and waved us on. mr. hubert. you went into main street and turned left? sergeant putnam. right. mr. hubert. did he go very much out into the street to assist you to get out? sergeant putnam. no, sir. mr. hubert. you say he stepped off of the curb, though? sergeant putnam. possibly one step off of the curb. mr. hubert. and then he looked to his right and his left? how did he do that? sergeant putnam. i---- mr. hubert. how was he standing? with his back to you? sergeant putnam. my impression was he was facing us and my impression was that he glanced to his right, which would be to the westbound traffic and lieutenant pierce, the driver, was on the left and in a position to see the eastbound traffic. mr. hubert. in other words, turned his head so that the back of his head would have been towards the main street ramp? sergeant putnam. yes, sir. mr. hubert. and he stepped off of the curb just about feet? sergeant putnam. well, i would say in one step, feet. mr. hubert. didn't go into the middle of the street? sergeant putnam. no, sir. mr. hubert. and he waved you on? sergeant putnam. he immediately turned back and glanced like this [indicating], and turned back, and was walking back to his position on the sidewalk. mr. hubert. would you say from the time you all reached the main street exit point to the time that vaughn started to walk back to his position, it took only a matter of or seconds? sergeant putnam. we didn't even stop the car. it would be very few seconds. mr. hubert. no stop at all? sergeant putnam. just a--to prevent from hitting a pedestrian walking on the sidewalk. now, there wasn't one walking, but to take a quick glance like you would do approaching a sidewalk, the car was slowed, and immediately--at this time everything happened at once. he slowed the car, vaughn walked and glanced and waved us on. he accelerated and we went on to main street. mr. hubert. did you turn your head to the right when you got to the sidewalk? sergeant putnam. yes, sir. mr. hubert. did you see anybody? sergeant putnam. no, sir. mr. hubert. was not a soul? sergeant putnam. didn't see anyone in sight in--except officer vaughn and the persons that i say were on the left. mr. hubert. in other words, there was nobody coming up main street towards harwood? sergeant putnam. i can't say that there was not. i can say that i didn't see them. mr. hubert. that is all you can do, of course. sergeant putnam. yes. mr. hubert. and there was no one standing there that you saw? sergeant putnam. no, sir. mr. hubert. specifically, now, the man that you later knew to be jack ruby, you did not see either walking up, or standing by on the pearl street side of main street exit? sergeant putnam. no, sir. mr. hubert. did you look at the people on the left side? sergeant putnam. i only glanced. i just---- mr. hubert. can you identify anybody? sergeant putnam. not a person. mr. hubert. can you specifically say that ruby was not there? sergeant putnam. no, sir. mr. hubert. all you can say is, i take it then, the man you have since learned to be ruby was--you didn't see him? sergeant putnam. no, sir. mr. hubert. if he was there, you didn't see him? sergeant putnam. i didn't see him. mr. hubert. can you go as far as to say, turning again to your right-hand side, that there was nobody on your right-hand side at all? sergeant putnam. i can say that there was no one in the immediate vicinity within, i would say--well, it was apparent that-- feet away from me i saw a group of people standing, and to the right---- mr. hubert. on the---- sergeant putnam. to the left, and to the right i saw no one in the immediate vicinity of us. mr. hubert. that is immediately upon coming out? sergeant putnam. that's right. mr. hubert. did you see the person who has subsequently been identified as jack ruby among the reporters that he pushed through? sergeant putnam. no, sir. mr. hubert. did you see any such person come down the ramp as you were going up the ramp? sergeant putnam. no, sir. mr. hubert. how far down main street to pearl do you think you can see? sergeant putnam. well, it is a clear view to pearl street, but my attention would not have been directed by someone half a block away. it would have made no impression. mr. hubert. but, your thought is that there was nobody at least as far as a half a block away? sergeant putnam. that's my belief. mr. hubert. and vaughn turned immediately back and went back to his position? sergeant putnam. was walking back in that direction. in other words, we could have been close enough to touch him. mr. hubert. as you passed, he was walking back. sergeant putnam. that's correct. mr. hubert. and therefore, he was facing towards the entrance? sergeant putnam. that's correct. mr. hubert. did you hear him call to anybody up there? sergeant putnam. no, sir. mr. hubert. well, is there anything else you would like to say? sergeant putnam. well---- mr. hubert. any other facts that aren't covered in the documents which we have identified here as , and ? sergeant putnam. no, sir. mr. hubert. i do not believe you have been interviewed by any member of the commission's staff at all prior to this deposition? sergeant putnam. no, sir. mr. hubert. all right, i think that is all. if any fact that has not been developed in these reports and in your testimony should come to your attention, i hope you will free to let us know about it if you think it is a material fact. all we are seeking is to get the facts. that's all. and if, by chance, you have forgotten something and you should remember it at a later date, please contact us through the united states attorney's office and tell them that you have a fact that you would like to report that you have overlooked and we will make arrangements to see you again. but at this time, we will give you the days' notice. i thank you, sir. testimony of willie b. slack the testimony of willie b. slack was taken at a.m., on march , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. leon d. hubert, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. hubert. this is the deposition of patrolman willie--is that willie? not william? mr. slack. willie. mr. hubert. willie b. slack. mr. slack, my name is leon hubert. i am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy. under the rules provided by the executive order , dated november , , and the joint resolution of congress, no. , together with the rules of procedure adopted by the president's commission in conformance with the executive order and joint resolution, i have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, mr. slack. i state to you now that the general nature of the commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of president kennedy, and the subsequent violent death of lee harvey oswald. in particular to you, mr. slack, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine the facts that you know about the death of oswald, and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. now, mr. slack, you have appeared here today by virtue of the general request made to chief curry by j. lee rankin, who is general counsel of the president's commission. under the rules adopted by this commission, you are entitled to a -day written notice that your deposition is going to be taken, but the rules also provide that you may waive the -day written notice if you see fit to do so. and are you now willing to waive that -day notice? mr. slack. i do. mr. hubert. that being the case, will you stand and be sworn? do you solemnly swear then to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. slack. i do. mr. hubert. will you state your name, please? mr. slack. w. b. slack. mr. hubert. your age? mr. slack. thirty-nine. mr. hubert. your residence? mr. slack. sumatra, dallas. mr. hubert. and your occupation? mr. slack. patrolman. mr. hubert. how long have you been a patrolman on the dallas police force? mr. slack. ten years. mr. hubert. what is your particular assignment? mr. slack. working in the jail office. mr. hubert. what duties do you have there, in general? mr. slack. we answer the telephone, and when the officers bring the worksheets down, we book them on a booking form. mr. hubert. in other words, book the prisoners in and out? mr. slack. check them out when somebody comes in and pays them out. mr. hubert. when you say, "pays them out," you mean, makes bond? mr. slack. yes, sir; or writs. mr. hubert. or writs? oh, you mean if they are released on a writ? mr. slack. yes, sir. mr. hubert. in other words, your office then is the control center, as it were, for people coming in and people coming out? mr. slack. yes, sir. mr. hubert. you work in shifts, of course, like all the rest of the police? mr. slack. yes, sir. mr. hubert. were you on duty on november , , the day that oswald was shot? mr. slack. yes, sir. mr. hubert. what time did you come on duty? mr. slack. : a.m., in the morning. mr. hubert. you had what is called the first platoon, i think. eleven o'clock, oh, no--i beg your pardon. that would be the second platoon. mr. slack. second platoon. mr. hubert. comes on at : and goes off at : ? mr. slack. : . mr. hubert. therefore, you were there between and the time oswald was shot? mr. slack. yes, sir. mr. hubert. do you know jack ruby? mr. slack. no, sir. mr. hubert. had you ever seen him before that day? mr. slack. not to my knowledge; no. mr. hubert. do you recall the occasion when oswald was brought down to be transferred to the county jail? mr. slack. yes, sir. mr. hubert. well, tell us what you know about it in your own words. mr. slack. well, he got off the elevator and---- mr. hubert. had you ever seen him before that time? mr. slack. no, sir; and he was flanked on either side by detectives and captain fritz was with the detectives, and they went out the swinging doors, which is into the basement of the city hall. mr. hubert. do you know what time that was? mr. slack. yes, sir. mr. hubert. what time was it? mr. slack. : . mr. hubert. how do you fix that? mr. slack. when a prisoner is released from jail we have to put the time on a booking card, we have to put them down. mr. hubert. did you do so? mr. slack. yes, sir. mr. hubert. does that booking card exist? mr. slack. yes, sir. mr. hubert. have you examined it briefly? mr. slack. yes, sir. mr. hubert. how long ago? mr. slack. i examined it before i came to work, before i came over here. mr. hubert. when? this morning, or yesterday, or---- mr. slack. that was yesterday. mr. hubert. what does it show? mr. slack. it shows---- mr. hubert. about the time? mr. slack. transferred to the county at : a.m., on the th of november. mr. hubert. whose handwriting is that entry in? mr. slack. it is in mine. mr. hubert. now, how did you fix the time? how do you normally fix the time? mr. slack. well, we put the date and the time. mr. hubert. what i mean is, do you have an electric clock? mr. slack. no, sir; do it with a pencil, or fountain pen. mr. hubert. you mean you rely upon your watch? mr. slack. no, sir; we have a clock on the wall. mr. hubert. is that an electric clock? mr. slack. yes, sir. mr. hubert. is it accurate? mr. slack. that, i can't answer, because---- mr. hubert. well, i mean, you all go by it? mr. slack. yes. mr. hubert. time is of importance in going in and going out of prisoners, isn't it? mr. slack. yes, sir; it sure is important. mr. hubert. do you know if the clock is checked at any time to see if it is? mr. slack. not to my knowledge; no, sir. mr. hubert. have you ever observed it to be wrong? mr. slack. no, sir; i sure haven't. mr. hubert. well, it certainly needs checking procedure to see if it loses time, or gains, or stops because of the electricity being cut off, or something of that sort. mr. slack. yes. well, if the time was different from one of our watches i imagine they would call "time," sir. of course, we call "time," all the time usually checking the news, you know, so it is checked that way. mr. hubert. in your opinion, that clock is accurate; right? mr. slack. yes, sir. mr. hubert. if it were in error, what would you say would be the greatest error it could be in? mr. slack. well, it couldn't be over a minute or two either way, sir. mr. hubert. all right, what happened after that? mr. slack. well, he went out the door, and then my job there was to, when the lieutenant told me that they had got in the car or transportation which was to be used, they then would notify me, and i was supposed to notify the dispatcher that they were---- mr. hubert. what were you supposed to notify the dispatcher? mr. slack. that they were on their way. mr. hubert. had you received any orders about that? mr. slack. well---- mr. hubert. i mean, who told you that, to notify the dispatcher? mr. slack. lieutenant wiggins. mr. hubert. now, notifying the dispatcher, would mean that it would go over the radio? mr. slack. no, sir; they have a direct line to the county. mr. hubert. so, the purpose of notifying the dispatcher, so far as you know, was for them to telephone the county that the prisoner was on his way? mr. slack. apparently; yes, sir. mr. hubert. had you been told that by wiggins or had you been told that--merely to notify the dispatcher? mr. slack. the---- mr. hubert. we have to take it on the record. just---- mr. slack. well, my letter there i wrote that--do you have a copy of it? mr. hubert. yes. mr. slack. that i--well, i can say that i was told to tell the dispatcher that he was en route to the county. mr. hubert. do you know who the dispatcher was? mr. slack. jim farr is the dispatcher. mr. hubert. no; i mean on that particular day? mr. slack. well, he is, like i say, the dispatcher up there, but when i called on this particular occasion, i got miss cason first, and then i---- mr. hubert. of course, that was to report to miss cason that the man had been shot? mr. slack. yes, sir; but---- mr. hubert. what did you say to miss cason? mr. slack. told her that oswald had been shot, and that we needed a doctor. mr. hubert. did you call for an ambulance, tell her you needed an ambulance? mr. slack. no, sir. mr. hubert. your remark to miss cason was simply that oswald had been shot and to get a doctor? mr. slack. yes, sir; best of my knowledge. mr. hubert. now, when did you write out the entry which you say was in your own hand showing that the prisoner was being transferred at : ? was that done at : or later? mr. slack. i would--i believe i wrote it out then. in other words, what i am in the habit of doing is this. that is something that comes naturally. mr. hubert. in other words, the normal procedure is that the time of release and the time of action taken---- mr. slack. i was standing there---- mr. hubert. let me finish my question; is done simultaneously with the act itself? mr. slack. yes, sir. mr. hubert. so, that normally, when a prisoner leaves you make these notations, and you look to see what time it is. you enter the time, and that is how the notation is made? mr. slack. yes, sir. mr. hubert. as far as you know, was there any deviation from that normal procedure in the case of the transfer of oswald? mr. slack. the deviation, it was in this point, that we usually have it filled out before the prisoner is brought down. in this particular case, we didn't know when he was going to be transferred, so therefore, we had to write down when he did come down. mr. hubert. in other words, you hadn't pulled his card? mr. slack. i had his card pulled. i knew he was going to be transferred, presumably. mr. hubert. but you didn't know the time; so, therefore, you hadn't entered anything? mr. slack. no, sir; i had it on the clipboard on the counter where we always keep them. mr. hubert. what is your best recollection about what you entered there with reference to the shooting, that is to say, was the entry made before or after the shooting? mr. slack. it was made before the shooting. mr. hubert. in other words, it was made in the interval when he came out of the elevator and they walked out? mr. slack. yes. mr. hubert. yes. mr. slack. [witness nods head.] mr. hubert. she can't--you have to say something, because the reporter can't record silence. mr. slack. yes, sir; i forget. mr. hubert. you didn't see the shooting, as i understand it? mr. slack. no, sir; i saw the shuffle out there. mr. hubert. and then they brought ruby and oswald in? mr. slack. yes, sir. mr. hubert. did either ruby or oswald say anything that you, yourself heard? mr. slack. no, sir. mr. hubert. did you notice the time that they brought them in? who came in first? mr. slack. i don't know, sir. like i say, the lieutenant told me to call the doctor, and, of course, my back end was turned a few seconds. mr. hubert. when you say, "lieutenant," i believe you are referring to lieutenant wiggins? mr. slack. wiggins; yes, sir. mr. hubert. so, you called the dispatcher and told him what you said you told him, and what happened next, to your recollection? mr. slack. well, it was just about over with then except the ambulance did come in, and, of course, that was a little confusion around there. mr. hubert. do you know anything about the times of, say the movement of ruby up in the elevator to the jail, or the time when the ambulance arrived and the time when it left with oswald? mr. slack. no, sir; not the exact time; no, sir. mr. hubert. no record was made on any of that? mr. slack. not that i know of. not in our office. mr. hubert. what is the form called that you filled in with your own hand about the time of movement? does that have a number? mr. slack. we call it a booking card. mr. hubert. booking card? mr. slack. yes, sir. mr. hubert. and i think you testified that yesterday you looked at it to refresh your memory and it is in your handwriting, and it states : ? mr. slack. yes, sir. mr. hubert. apparently sometime ago, let's say on december , you were interviewed by the fbi, and at that time you stated it was between : and : that oswald was brought down. can you assist us in explaining this discrepancy between the two times? do you remember that interview? mr. slack. yes, sir; i remember the interview; yes, sir. mr. hubert. edmond hardin and paul scott, and yourself? mr. slack. yes, sir. mr. hubert. do you recall telling them it was : ? mr. slack. no, sir; i don't. mr. hubert. do you have any recollection now about it, or are you relying upon what you saw on the records yesterday when you looked at it? mr. slack. that would be the way i would have to go on it, sir, would be the records there. mr. hubert. you are satisfied that the record which is normally made extemporaneously with the act is really more accurate than your present memory right now? mr. slack. yes, sir. mr. hubert. or would have been more accurate actually than your statement to the fbi agent if, in fact, you did say that? mr. slack. yes, sir. mr. hubert. i would like you to just read these two documents. the one, the fbi report, and the other, the letter. have you had occasion to read the two documents i have handed you, sir? mr. slack. yes, sir. mr. hubert. let me mark them then for identification. mr. slack. there is a little discrepancy---- mr. hubert. yes; i'm going to give you an opportunity to explain them. for the purpose of identification i am marking what purports to be a copy of a letter addressed to mr. j. e. curry, chief of police, apparently signed by willie b. slack, dated november , . i am marking it "dallas, texas, march . , exhibit no. , deposition of w. b. slack." putting my name below it. it has only one page. for the purpose of identification, i am marking what purports to be an fbi interview of willie b. slack by agents hardin and scott, which took place on december , . i am marking the first page of that document with the following, "dallas, texas, march , . exhibit no. . deposition of w. b. slack," and signing my name, and on the second page thereof, on the lower right-hand corner i am placing my initial. now, patrolman slack, i show you the document marked exhibit , and ask you if you have read it, and if it is a correct statement? mr. slack. all right. mr. hubert. is that a correct statement? mr. slack. yes. mr. hubert. so that the record may show that we are both talking about the same thing, same document, i wonder if you will just put your name below mine. now, we will refer to a document--in two pages--that i have marked a moment ago for identification as " ," and ask you if you have read that, and if that is correct, or if you have any corrections or observation or comments to make with reference to that document? for the purpose of identification will you mark these two documents with your name where my name is, and with your initials where my initials are, and then you can make the comments if you want to correct it or modify it and so forth. mr. slack. you want me to mark it before i---- mr. hubert. just sign your name on that, and on the second page write your initials. that's right. now, have you any comments to make, or any corrections to make concerning that document? mr. slack. well, on your second page, in here, the document here stated that patrolman slack cleared his office. i didn't have anything to do with security in the office. only part i was in charge would be the immediate area in which i was standing, and nobody was in there, of course, but our personnel. of course, i believe i did make the statement to them after they had cleared it, it wasn't no one that had come in except authorized personnel. mr. hubert. well, you are speaking of the second to last paragraph on the second page and you want to modify that paragraph so that it will conform with the statement you have just made, and which the stenographer has recorded? mr. slack. yes, sir; i am not a supervisor or anything like that. mr. hubert. i notice also, and i believe you have already testified about this, but i think for the purposes of clarity, we ought to note it, and that is that upon the first page there is a statement that about : to : , oswald was brought down. mr. slack. yes, sir. mr. hubert. your previous testimony actually has clarified that, but it was those times that you were speaking about in this deposition earlier, that is to say, that as to this statement in " " the last paragraph on the first page, wherein it says that you saw oswald coming down somewhere between : and : , your previous statement or testimony is more accurate, that is to say, that it was about : . mr. slack. yes, sir. mr. hubert. and i think that modification ought to be noted, too. mr. slack. yes; i do too. mr. hubert. and it is noted, because the reporter has taken it down. now, have you any other statement that you would like to make that has not been covered? mr. slack. no, sir; that is about all. mr. hubert. were you interviewed by me or any other member of the commission's staff prior to the taking of this deposition? mr. slack. no, sir; except the---- mr. hubert. the fbi? yes. i mean the president's commission? mr. slack. no, sir. mr. hubert. the staff of the president's commission? mr. slack. no, sir. mr. hubert. all right, sir; i think that is all. thank you very much. testimony of don francis steele the testimony of don francis steele was taken at : p.m., on march , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. leon d. hubert, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. hubert. my name is leon d. hubert. i am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel on the president's commission. under the provisions of the executive order , dated november , , and joint resolution of congress no. and the rules of procedure adopted by the commission in conformance with that executive order in the joint resolution i have been authorized to take the sworn deposition from you, mr. steele. i now state that the general nature of the commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of president kennedy and the subsequent violent death of lee harvey oswald. in particular to you, mr. steele, the nature of our inquiry tonight is to determine the facts you know about the death of oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. mr. steele, you have appeared here by virtue of a request made by the general counsel on the staff of the president's commission, mr. j. lee rankin, directed to chief j. e. curry. under the rules adopted by the commission, you are entitled to a -day written notice prior to the taking of this deposition, but the rules adopted by this commission also provide that you may waive that -day notice if you are willing to do so. now, the question is: are you willing to waive the notice? sergeant steele. yes. mr. hubert. will you stand and raise your right hand and be sworn. do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? sergeant steele. i do. mr. hubert. will you please state your full name? sergeant steele. don francis steele. mr. hubert. your age? sergeant steele. thirty-two. mr. hubert. your residence? sergeant steele. kent drive, arlington, tex. mr. hubert. your occupation? sergeant steele. sergeant of police, dallas, tex. mr. hubert. how long have you been a sergeant of police? sergeant steele. five years and four months--five months, excuse me. mr. hubert. what division or department of the dallas police department? sergeant steele. i am presently in the patrol division. mr. hubert. where were you on november , , and , ? sergeant steele. november i was on a day off. mr. hubert. d? sergeant steele. d i worked in the oak cliff area. mr. hubert. and the---- sergeant steele. and the th, of course, the regular assignment is in the oak cliff area, and i reported to that assignment. mr. hubert. were you moved from that assignment? sergeant steele. i came to the city hall, came to the police station downtown early that morning to pick up some correspondence, telegrams, and things like that, to take to officer tippit's widow. mr. hubert. and what time was that? sergeant steele. that was approximately : . mr. hubert. what happened after that? sergeant steele. well, the captain was bringing in some of the patrolmen from in the field, from all the stations, and i asked lieutenant pierce if there was anything he needed me to do before i left, and he said, "well--" told me i'd better stick around for a while. he might need me. mr. hubert. did you do anything later on? sergeant steele. well, i stayed there and in the patrol office for or minutes, and then the captain came in---- mr. hubert. which captain? sergeant steele. captain talbert, c. e. talbert. he told me to come on and go with him, and he wanted to look the situation over outside. we walked down the stairs to the first floor where the corporation court is located and out the door on the commerce street--and there were several--they blocked those buildings directly across the street from the police building. he told me to get a man, or get as many people as i needed and check the buildings over there to make sure that there weren't any doors open, or somebody wasn't concealed inside the building. i got a patrolman, i believe it was officer jez. we went over there, checked all the doors in the front. they were all secure. we climbed up the fire escape and checked the roofs of all of the buildings directly across from the vehicular exit on the commerce street. mr. hubert. when that was completed, what did you do? sergeant steele. not much of anything for a while. stayed down there in the basement for i guess or minutes and everything was kind of at a standstill. mr. hubert. what time was that? sergeant steele. about the time i finished checking the buildings, and everything, i guess it was--now, wait a minute. excuse me. then i reported--after i checked those buildings, i reported to captain talbert that there was a large crowd of pedestrians on the sidewalk right outside of the vehicular route, and he--told me to get some men, some reserve officers if i could, and move them across the street onto the south side of commerce street. mr. hubert. did you do that? sergeant steele. yes, i got five reserve officers and took them out there and told them what i wanted them to do. helped them do it. moved all the pedestrians across over to the south side of the street, and i stationed two of them at the corner of harwood and commerce, the northeast corner, with instructions to restrict any pedestrian traffic. in other words, not to allow them to come back to that vehicular exit, and i put two more down at pearl and commerce street, and one at the door to city hall with the same instructions. mr. hubert. that is the commerce---- sergeant steele. the municipal building. the nearest door to the municipal building. mr. hubert. did you place any on the main street door to the municipal building? sergeant steele. no, sir; i never got to the main street. mr. hubert. did you place any officers to direct traffic at the intersection of main and pearl, or to control traffic? sergeant steele. well, we started--can i go on? mr. hubert. yes; surely. sergeant steele. well, we'll get to that. after i got these reserve people put out, as i say, i got down--went down in the basement and talked to the captain for a few minutes. and i stood around and things were kind of at a standstill there. there was lots of television and camera people in there, and about : , i guess, the captain told sergeant dean, who related to myself and sergeant putnam that they would bring this armored car in and the armored car was going to go down main street to the county jail, and he said to get all the regular patrol officers, all the regular officers and assign them to traffic intersections, traffic corners. mr. hubert. on what street? sergeant steele. on main street, and i just helped sergeant dean make the assignments. i don't recall whether i specifically assigned a man to main and pearl, but then the captain came along a few minutes later and said it had been changed, that we were going to run the armored car down elm street, so, whatever men we may have assigned to main and pearl, that is where he would have been, and he was taken off the assignment. they never went to it. mr. hubert. okay. so, as far as you know there were no police officers of any sort, reserve or regular directing traffic or controlling it in any way on the corner of main and pearl? sergeant steele. to the best of my knowledge, there was no regular officer. mr. hubert. what about a reserve officer? sergeant steele. i couldn't say that. mr. hubert. in any case, the original plan to assign one to pearl and main, wasn't carried out because of the change in plans, and that man, whoever he was, went to pearl and elm? sergeant steele. yes. i think that it was--let's see. i believe it was one of my men from oak cliff, but i'm not sure, but he never did get to it. mr. hubert. yes. sergeant steele. we didn't even leave the basement. mr. hubert. where were you when the shot was fired? sergeant steele. i was at the county jail. mr. hubert. i mean in the basement? sergeant steele. no; i had left. mr. hubert. oh, you had left, so, you weren't in this building at all? sergeant steele. i left about minutes before it occurred. see, we didn't have enough officers, enough radio patrolmen to fill all the corners to put a man at each intersection on elm street, so, i went to the county to contact the traffic people and see if i could get three men from them, that is how many we needed. mr. hubert. do you know a man by the name of ralph paul that lives in arlington? sergeant steele. no. mr. hubert. are you familiar with a place called "the bull pen" there? sergeant steele. yes. mr. hubert. what is "the bull pen"? sergeant steele. it is a barbecue place, sell beer. mr. hubert. do you know the manager of it? sergeant steele. no, no; i can't recall being in that place more than once or twice. mr. hubert. and the name ralph paul doesn't mean anything to you? sergeant steele. no, sir. mr. hubert. do you know ruby? sergeant steele. yes. mr. hubert. how well do you know him? sergeant steele. through contacts, various contacts when i was a patrolman. mr. hubert. how long had you known him? sergeant steele. well, i had actually first met him, or heard of, or saw jack ruby, i guess, in , about years. mr. hubert. would you recognize him by sight, do you think, if you saw him? sergeant steele. yes; i feel like i would, although, it has been several years since i have seen him in person. mr. hubert. did you have occasion to observe the number of people who were standing in the main street ramp part of the basement just at the entrance of the jail corridor? do you know what i mean? in other words, as you were standing in the basement looking toward main street where the jail corridor intersects the ramp---- sergeant steele. right at the corner---- mr. hubert. right at the corner, and looking toward main street, did you have occasion to observe how many people were in that area just shortly before the shooting? sergeant steele. well, minutes would be as close as i could go, and at that time only probably or , kind of milling around. reporters, television people walking back and forth and that sort of thing. mr. hubert. you left the building about ? sergeant steele. approximately ; yes, sir. mr. hubert. do you know what kind of car jack ruby drives? sergeant steele. no. years ago seems to me like he had a buick, but that was years ago when i was a patrolman and it has been over years. i think he had a buick at that time. mr. hubert. now, you have not been interviewed by me or any member of the commission's staff prior to this deposition tonight, have you, sir? sergeant steele. no. mr. hubert. all right. have you anything else you wish to add? sergeant steele. i guess i ought to mention this officer who was with me during all of this. mr. hubert. who was that? sergeant steele. j. f. harrison. mr. hubert. by the way, i meant to ask you, you have read those statements? sergeant steele. yes, sir. mr. hubert. i'll mark the one dated november , , addressed to chief of police curry, apparently the original was signed by you, by placing on that document, "dallas, texas, march th, . exhibit . deposition of d. f. steele," and mark my name below it, and i have marked another document which purports to be an interview by fbi agents robertson and scott of you on december , , by marking the first page, "dallas, texas, march th, , exhibit , deposition of d. f. steele." and i sign my name. on the second page of the document i have placed my initials on the bottom of the right-hand corner of the page. i would like to ask you if you have read those, and if those statements are correct? sergeant steele. i have read them. the only thing that i would say, in paragraph--this would be no. . let's see. one, two, three, four, five, be paragraph no. . mr. hubert. of exhibit ---- sergeant steele. . mr. hubert. yes. sergeant steele. it mentions that i assisted sergeant dean in redistributing the newsmen and tv men in the basement area, but actually, i didn't do that. mr. hubert. other than that correction, are those two exhibits correct, so far as you know? sergeant steele. can i clarify one? mr. hubert. oh, yes; certainly. sergeant steele. on page , of that same---- mr. hubert. ? sergeant steele. yes, sir; paragraph no. , says that i did not have knowledge of security measures in effect in the police building. i had knowledge that there was some type of pass required, but this was my first contact with it, and it was being handled by the other sergeant, so, consequently, i didn't know too much about what was required to enter the basement, but i knew that the men on the checkpoint did know what they were supposed to be checking for. and the next paragraph says i had not seen ruby in approximately years. i'd say probably more like years when i was a jail sergeant. mr. hubert. any other corrections or additions you wish to make? sergeant steele. no. mr. hubert. now, so that the record may show that we are talking about the same document would you put your name below mine where it appears and your initials below mine where they appear on the second page. your name there. sergeant steele. just sign my name right here? mr. hubert. that's right; and just put your initials on the bottom. sergeant steele. down here? mr. hubert. yes; and then the other single documents just sign your name below mine. all right, sir. thank you very much. testimony of roy eugene vaughn the testimony of roy eugene vaughn was taken at : a.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. leon d. hubert, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. hubert. mr. vaughn, my name is leon hubert. i'm a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the president's commission. under the provisions of executive order , dated november , , and the joint resolution of congress no. , and the rules of procedure adopted by the commission in conformance with the executive order and joint resolution, i have been authorized to take a sworn statement from you. i state to you now that the general nature of the commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon facts relating to the assassination of president kennedy and the subsequent violent death of lee harvey oswald. in particular to you, mr. vaughn, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry, and more particularly about the entry or possible entry of ruby into the basement through the main street ramp. did you get a letter directed to you? mr. vaughn. to appear here? mr. hubert. yes. mr. vaughn. yes, sir. mr. hubert. that letter was a written request, written by mr. j. lee rankin, general counsel of the commission, to you asking you to appear; is that correct? mr. vaughn. yes. mr. hubert. was that letter received by you more than days from this day? mr. vaughn. yes, sir. mr. hubert. will you rise and take the oath? do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. vaughn. i do. mr. hubert. will you state your name? mr. vaughn. roy eugene vaughn. mr. hubert. how old are you, sir? mr. vaughn. i am . mr. hubert. where do you live? mr. vaughn. loganwood drive, dallas, tex. mr. hubert. what is your occupation? mr. vaughn. police officer. mr. hubert. how long have you been on the police force? mr. vaughn. almost years. mr. hubert. what rank or rating do you hold now? mr. vaughn. patrolman. mr. hubert. you were on duty at the police department on sunday, november ? mr. vaughn. that's correct. mr. hubert. what time did you report for duty? mr. vaughn. i'd say at approximately a.m. we got a call to call the patrol office. mr. hubert. you mean your normal station was not at headquarters? mr. vaughn. oh, no, sir. mr. hubert. where was your normal station? mr. vaughn. at this particular month, being the month we worked days, and i work relief--i don't work any certain district--and i work just more or less wherever i am needed. mr. hubert. so, they let you know at your home in some way? mr. vaughn. no, sir; i had already reported for work. i was working with squad that particular morning, which is in the downtown area. mr. hubert. that's a patrol car? mr. vaughn. yes--district , and approximately at a.m. i got a call to call , which is patrol headquarters. officer l. c. taylor, who answered the phone, advised me to report to the city hall and park my car and report to . mr. hubert. what is ? mr. vaughn. which would be the patrol office--that's the extension number which is commonly referred to as such. mr. hubert. did you do so? mr. vaughn. yes. mr. hubert. did you have a partner? mr. vaughn. no, sir; i didn't. mr. hubert. about what time did you report? mr. vaughn. i would say approximately : , mr. hubert. mr. hubert. and when you got there what happened? mr. vaughn. i walked in the--there was a little small assembly room off of the main office, and i walked in there--there was several men, officers in there--there was officer patterson, officer brock, and i think r. c. nelson, i believe, came in a little later, and they had the coffee pot on and so we, i think most of us got a cup of coffee and was just sitting there talking. mr. hubert. what happened then? mr. vaughn. then lieutenant pierce walked in and told me and officer nelson and officer brock and officer patterson to report to sergeant dean in the basement, and he told me to tell sergeant dean when this was secured, when the basement was secured, to leave two men in the basement and secure the others. mr. hubert. to leave two men in the basement and to what? mr. vaughn. well, he said after this was all completed, this transferring was completed, to leave two men--that means to leave two men in the basement area and to secure the other two. mr. hubert. and to secure the other two what? mr. vaughn. two men--you see, there were four of us that went down and he said to leave two in the basement and to secure the other two. mr. hubert. what does that mean, "secure the other two?" mr. vaughn. well, that means just turn them loose and send them back to their regular duties. mr. hubert. in other words, of the four men, you were to help in whatever dean was doing, and then he told you, "tell dean--leave two men in the basement and turn the other two loose?" mr. vaughn. yes; that's after everything was completed. that's his message that he more or less sent by me to sergeant dean. mr. hubert. now, does that term "secure" mean to turn the men loose--does that mean they would go off duty or that they were to report back somewhere else to work? mr. vaughn. they were to report back for somewhere else. mr. hubert. did you follow those instructions? mr. vaughn. yes, sir; i did. mr. hubert. did you have any part in the checkout of the basement? mr. vaughn. as far as actually checking the basement? mr. hubert. yes, sir. mr. vaughn. well, i was assigned by sergeant putnam, who was with sergeant dean in the basement, when we got down there--sergeant putnam assigned me to the main street ramp and i believe he assigned also patrolman patterson to the commerce street ramp. mr. hubert. now, about what time did he assign you to the main street entrance? mr. vaughn. i would say, mr. hubert, somewhere around : --i couldn't be definite. mr. hubert. did he give you any instructions? mr. vaughn. yes; he said not to let anybody enter the basement except police and the press, and only the press when they had an official press card, and if i didn't recognize any officer by sight to require identification. mr. hubert. did you understand by that that he meant that even if an officer was in what purported to be a uniform, that you weren't to let him in anyhow unless he had an identification? mr. vaughn. well, he said--the way i understand it, mr. hubert, if i recognized them by sight and knew them to be an officer, and by my own knowing them, then otherwise, where i think it was more applied--to where--he said there would possibly be some secret service men and possibly would be some federal agents i didn't know, and would i require identification from them. mr. hubert. what did you understand to mean by proper press accreditation or identification? mr. vaughn. well, there was one case where--there are several different types of press cards. the only one that i would accept from them which would be, and i think in one or two cases, was the official card either issued by the states of texas or by the city of dallas, which contained the photograph of the reporter. mr. hubert. otherwise, even though they had something that looked like a press card, you understood that you were to turn them away? mr. vaughn. yes, sir; that's right. mr. hubert. did you in fact turn away some people? mr. vaughn. i had one particular--yes, i turned away several people that were not press--they would try to enter the ramp. of course, this is--normally a person going to the jail, which is immediately off of the bottom of the ramp--a lot of people will try to use that ramp as an entrance to the jail and there were a lot of people that come up there and said that they were going to the jail and i turned them away and told them to go some other way. there was one reporter that come up and i believe he was with either associated press or united press, i don't recall exactly, and he had on a sweater--first he asked me if some man was in the basement, some other reporter, and i told him i didn't know, and he said he wanted to go down and see him, and i told him i couldn't permit him to without identification, and he pulled out a pass which is--i don't know how to express it--a large yellow pass, more or less a complimentary press pass and i told him i couldn't accept that and he dug around in his billfold and he finally did come up with a pass. i believe this particular pass was issued by the state of california or the city of los angeles, but it was similar to our official pass. mr. hubert. and you recognized that? mr. vaughn. yes; i did. mr. hubert. did you know jack ruby at all prior to this occasion? mr. vaughn. well, i had met mr. ruby prior to this time, mr. hubert. mr. hubert. how many times would you say? mr. vaughn. i would say two or three times to be at the most. mr. hubert. how long before november ? mr. vaughn. when i was a rookie in , i met mr. ruby while i was working a district out of oak lawn and i was more or less being trained at that time, riding with another senior officer and an occasion arose where they had to contact him about a white waitress that he had worked--had worked for him and had been intimate with some colored musicians that he had. mr. hubert. and you met him on that occasion? mr. vaughn. yes, sir; actually, i was just there. i hadn't--i knew the man. mr. hubert. how long did that interview last? mr. vaughn. oh, i'd say just a very few minutes--i don't recall. mr. hubert. when was the second time you saw him? mr. vaughn. the second time was, i believe it was in , and either the last of december or the middle of december. mr. hubert. tell us about that occasion. mr. vaughn. well, i had him on a traffic violation--a minor traffic violation. mr. hubert. did you recognize him as the man you had seen before? mr. vaughn. not until he told me who he was and i reprimanded him and let him go--didn't even issue him a ticket. mr. hubert. how long did that interview if we can call it that, with ruby, last? mr. vaughn. i would say at most probably minutes. mr. hubert. when was the third time you saw him, and i think the third time would have been the last time, too? mr. vaughn. as i recall that's about the last time i have ever seen the fellow. mr. hubert. i thought you said there were three times? mr. vaughn. well, either two or three--i couldn't be exact--i believe, like i said, i probably may have seen him more, but you know, just passing him when i was working on the district, but like i say, it would be difficult for me to recall definitely the times--i can recall definitely two times. mr. hubert. have you ever been to either of his clubs or any of his clubs? mr. vaughn. i have been to the vegas club, i would say, possibly twice. mr. hubert. what about the carousel or the sovereign? mr. vaughn. i didn't even know he had the carousel. mr. hubert. the silver slipper or any of his other clubs? mr. vaughn. i didn't even know he had them. mr. hubert. on the two occasions that you went to the vegas, did you see him? mr. vaughn. not that i recall--ever seeing him. mr. hubert. how long ago were those occasions? mr. vaughn. this would also be in . mr. hubert. so, the last time you really saw him was in december ? mr. vaughn. i believe it would be in december --there were other occasions that i was in his club. i was on duty and actually just making a routine check or answering a call there. i had actually never been in his club except on business. mr. hubert. on those occasions that you did go on business, do you recall having seen him? mr. vaughn. no; i don't, i don't recall seeing him. mr. hubert. when you stated you were posted at the main street ramp, by that i take it you mean the exit of the main street ramp, that is to say, where it comes out? mr. vaughn. yes; out onto the street--onto the sidewalk. mr. hubert. now, physically where did you maintain your post? mr. vaughn. i maintained it inside--actually, i would say or feet inside--actually--of the ramp. mr. hubert. in other words, you weren't on the sidewalk? mr. vaughn. oh, no; i was inside--standing inside the ramp. mr. hubert. the ramp is about how many feet wide? mr. vaughn. i would just have to estimate it--i would say it was to feet. mr. hubert. and you were standing more or less in the middle? mr. vaughn. in the middle. mr. hubert. and that was about from : on? mr. vaughn. yes. mr. hubert. did you ever leave that post? mr. vaughn. the only time when i ever moved out of my position there was when this car which was driven by lieutenant pierce exited by that ramp. mr. hubert. before we get to that, let me ask you this--you mentioned that on several occasions people came in, identified themselves and you let them through, or you turned away other people? mr. vaughn. yes. mr. hubert. what steps did you take to maintain the security of your post while you were talking to such people so that other people wouldn't sneak through? mr. vaughn. i was still standing in the middle of the ramp. mr. hubert. it would be impossible, you think, for anybody to pass on either side of you? mr. vaughn. that's right--without seeing them. mr. hubert. now, coming to the time when the automobile passed through, tell us what you know about that? mr. vaughn. well, i would say it was approximately a quarter or a little past--about minutes past , somewhere around there--i wouldn't be exact on the time. mr. hubert. how do you fix that time? mr. vaughn. well, they established, i think, that the shooting occurred at : and i'm just judging by the minutes before. mr. hubert. in other words, what you say is that you don't really have a direct recollection of what time it was, but you reconstructed it with the information given to you that the shooting took place at such and such a time? mr. vaughn. yes--at such and such a time. mr. hubert. let's do it this way. how long before you heard the shot did that car driven by rio pierce pass by you? mr. vaughn. i would say not over minutes. mr. hubert. now, did you recognize anybody in the car? mr. vaughn. yes, sir. mr. hubert. what did you do when the car came up? mr. vaughn. the first thing i noticed the car--still standing inside the ramp--and i heard someone at the bottom of the ramp holler, "watch the car," and when i looked down you could just get a view of the front end of the car coming up the ramp. it had its red lights on, which were in the grill. as it come on up the ramp, i stepped to my right, and it come up the ramp---- mr. hubert. you stepped towards pearl street? mr. vaughn. yes--towards pearl street, and i stepped to my right in order to get out of the car's way, and i stepped out on the sidewalk somewhere between the sidewalk and the curb, i believe it was right around the curb, and i glanced--it would be toward the eastbound traffic, which would be traffic towards pearl street to see that traffic was clear, and then motioned them on and i turned around and walked back. mr. hubert. you did not go into the street at all? mr. vaughn. no, sir. mr. hubert. you did not pass the curb? mr. vaughn. no, sir; not that i recall--i don't believe i did at all. mr. hubert. would you say that when you stepped to the right and walked on the sidewalk to the curb you looked for the traffic--to your right? mr. vaughn. actually, the way i was facing it would be to my left, which would be west. mr. hubert. it would be towards harwood street? mr. vaughn. yes--towards harwood street. mr. hubert. was your back then toward the ramp entrance? mr. vaughn. no, sir; my back was not toward the ramp, i was standing to the right of the ramp where i still had a view of the ramp itself, the entrance to the ramp. my back would have been toward pearl street--it would be towards the east. mr. hubert. did you ever turn your head or your body toward your right, that is, toward pearl street? mr. vaughn. no, sir; not that i recall. all i done on that, mr. hubert, like i say, i walked out--i glanced west, which would be towards the eastbound traffic going west and due to the fact that there were cars parked along here on main street, i glanced to the west and seen there was an opening in the eastbound traffic, which would be coming from the west, and i just motioned them on. mr. hubert. you did not go out in the middle of the street to halt traffic? mr. vaughn. no, sir; i did not. mr. hubert. were there many people standing around that entrance? mr. vaughn. no, sir; i would say at most, i believe, at most it would be a half dozen, i think, who were standing there. mr. hubert. were they standing in front or to the side? mr. vaughn. oh, there was one particular person that i recall that was standing on my right, which would be toward pearl street--would be n. j. daniels. mr. hubert. you did see him? mr. vaughn. yes, sir. mr. hubert. he is a former policeman? mr. vaughn. yes. mr. hubert. and you recognized him as such? mr. vaughn. yes. mr. hubert. and he was in civilian clothes? mr. vaughn. yes. mr. hubert. you know that little concrete or stone projection out into the sidewalk? mr. vaughn. yes, sir. mr. hubert. i think that they have two of those, one on each side of the ramp and they extend about or feet into the sidewalk from the side of the building toward the curb--is it correct to say that they are about inches high? mr. vaughn. i believe they are a little higher--i believe they would be about inches high. mr. hubert. on what side of the ramp was daniels? mr. vaughn. he would be on the east side, toward pearl street there. mr. hubert. now, after the pierce car passed by, what did you do? mr. vaughn. i walked back inside the ramp to my original post, which was or feet inside. mr. hubert. and you stayed there until after the shot was fired? mr. vaughn. yes. mr. hubert. did anyone go by you after you returned to your post, following the exit of the rio pierce car? mr. vaughn. no, sir; not that i recall--i don't believe there was. mr. hubert. now, you qualify that by saying, "not that you recall"--i had understood from your previous testimony that it would have been impossible for anybody to do so. mr. vaughn. well, as far as--actually, when i got inside the ramp, i don't believe there was anybody that went by between the time that i stepped back inside and the actual time of the shooting. when i say i recall, well, i'll put it definite--i know there wasn't--i'll put it that way. mr. hubert. that's the way i had understood your previous testimony, because i had asked you as to whether it were possible for anyone to have passed by you previously when you were examining the credentials of others. mr. vaughn. no. mr. hubert. and i think your answer to me was--no, it was impossible--they would have had to go either to the left or right of you and you were standing in the middle of a -foot opening? mr. vaughn. yes. mr. hubert. is it fair to say, then, that after you got back to your post, following the exit of rio pierce's car, that nobody passed you? mr. vaughn. nobody passed me. mr. hubert. specifically, did jack ruby pass you? mr. vaughn. no, sir. mr. hubert. now, when the rio pierce car was coming out, what steps or action did you take to maintain the security of your post while that car was passing through? mr. vaughn. the only steps, like i said, mr. hubert, on that--is when i stepped out onto the sidewalks--why--i made sure that my view of the entrance of the city hall was not completely blocked, that i could still see the entrance to the right. mr. hubert. you use the words "completely blocked," do you mean to infer by that it could have been partially blocked? mr. vaughn. no, sir; the only thing--when i stepped out, as the car came out, i still had a view of the actual entrance to the ramp. mr. hubert. would it have been possible that part of your view was blocked by the automobile itself? mr. vaughn. it possibly--for an instant while the car was coming out--actually out of the entrance--but after it cleared the ramp--no, sir. mr. hubert. after it cleared the entrance you returned your view to your post, even though you weren't at it? mr. vaughn. yes. mr. hubert. and nobody entered it at that time? mr. vaughn. no, sir; they did not. mr. hubert. did you ever see jack ruby standing by that concrete or marble--what do you call it? mr. vaughn. slab there. mr. hubert. standing by that slab there where daniels was? mr. vaughn. no, sir. mr. hubert. was there anybody else with daniels? mr. vaughn. no; not that i recall seeing that morning. now, daniels worked up there around approximately or feet--he was there quite some time and during the morning there were several people that would walk by the main street entrance and they would look in, more or less curiosity seekers more than anything else. there were very few that actually stopped and there was one particular man that did stop that i recall--i don't know his name. he was on the left of the ramp which would be toward the harwood street side. he used to be a shine boy in the basement of the city hall. mr. hubert. do you remember some city hall janitorial workers, particularly a man by the name of fuqua--did you see any people dressed in janitorial uniforms pass by? mr. vaughn. as i recall, i seen some men walk down the street there and look in the ramp and they walked on. mr. hubert. which way were they coming from? mr. vaughn. i believe they were coming from the east. mr. hubert. that is what direction? mr. vaughn. from pearl--towards harwood. mr. hubert. they just passed by? mr. vaughn. they would have hesitated for just a minute. mr. hubert. do you recall how long before the shooting they passed by? mr. vaughn. i would just have to estimate--just an estimate--i would say it was probably or minutes, something like that. mr. hubert. do you think it would have been possible for anyone to enter the basement who was approaching the main street ramp from pearl street or the western union direction, while the pierce car was exiting? mr. vaughn. no; i don't believe it would. mr. hubert. and why do you say that? mr. vaughn. because--due to the fact--the time, the period of time--like i said, i had a view of the ramp from the period of time the car actually come out, and i waved it on and walked back to the ramp. mr. hubert. now, you know, of course, that ruby says that's the way he got in? mr. vaughn. yes, i realize that. mr. hubert. what is your opinion about that statement? mr. vaughn. i don't believe he did. mr. hubert. you think he got in some other way? mr. vaughn. i don't know definitely, but i'll say he didn't come in at the ramp. how he got in--that, i don't know, but i know--i don't believe that he came in the ramp. mr. hubert. is it your opinion beyond any reasonable doubt, and i think you are familiar with that phrase as an officer, aren't you? mr. vaughn. yes. mr. hubert. that ruby did not enter the basement through the ramp while you were there? mr. vaughn. yes, sir. mr. hubert. is that opinion so strong that if you were a juror, for example, you would convict a man or acquit him, whichever it would be, on the basis of your statement that he did not enter at that ramp? mr. vaughn. well, now, what do you mean by that? mr. hubert. that's the reasonable doubt test, you see. mr. vaughn. you mean as far as i am concerned--as far as what i think about it, that i definitely do not think the man come down that ramp. mr. hubert. but i was testing the strength of your view. mr. vaughn. well, i don't quite understand or follow you? mr. hubert. well, here's what i had in mind--i'll put it this way--do you have the moral conviction that jack ruby did not enter the basement through the main street ramp to the degree that if that were an issue in a case on which you were a juror, you would say that it is beyond a reasonable doubt that he did not enter that way? mr. vaughn. so far as the knowledge i have of it--no, sir--i do not. i think if the question is that you think i would convict him on the doubt--of the knowledge that i have that he did not enter that ramp--yes, sir, i would. mr. hubert. in other words, you think it is beyond a reasonable doubt, as far as you are concerned? mr. vaughn. as far as i am concerned--yes, sir. mr. hubert. do you remember a man who turned out to be a police mechanic? mr. vaughn. yes. mr. hubert. do you know his name? mr. vaughn. tom chabot [spelling] c-h-a-b-o-t--i don't think i can spell it actually--anyway, chabot. mr. hubert. when did he enter the basement? mr. vaughn. oh, this was somewhat earlier--he pulled up in a city squad car and started into the ramp. mr. hubert. how much earlier was it, and earlier than what? mr. vaughn. it was, i would say--it was approximately--just an estimate, it would be somewhere around o'clock. mr. hubert. in other words, this man chabot went into the basement about an hour and minutes before the shooting? mr. vaughn. somewhere around there--like i said--it would strictly be an estimate on the time. mr. hubert. what happened--he tried or he went through? mr. vaughn. well, he pulled up in a city squad car and i told him i couldn't allow him in the basement in a squad car and so, he backed the car out and he parked it on main street, which would be actually east toward pearl street from--it would be on my right from the entrance or exit there--it would be on the right. he parked there and he got out and he come back and he come back up where i was standing inside the ramp, and he stood there a minute or two and talked to me, and, of course, i had known chabot ever since i had been there. he's married to a policewoman, and he stood there a minute and he told me, he said, "i've got to check the parking situation in the basement." he said on two previous dates he had had to work later until about : --and so i told him to go ahead, due to the fact that i knew it was sunday--i seen him driving a squad car--i thought possibly maybe they had sent for him, and there was several cars in the basement, so i told him to go ahead, and i seen him walk down in there--i was standing, and he was standing in my view--i could see him, and he walked down there and i got the view when he was talking to sergeant dean, and in or minutes he had come back up. he stopped there and chatted with me a minute and never said a thing, as far as telling him to leave the basement, so then he got out and went and got in the squad car and left. mr. hubert. now, tell us what happened when you heard the shot? mr. vaughn. well, after i had stepped back in there when lieutenant pierce had left--stepped back inside the ramp, it was, i would say, not over minutes i heard somebody holler, "here he comes," and so--i turned around and glanced--i couldn't see anything--all i could see was an outline of a few figures at the bottom. mr. hubert. you turned then so that your back was to main street and you were looking around? mr. vaughn. i was standing to a side view--i turned like this and looked right just like this a little way. mr. hubert. you looked over your shoulder? mr. vaughn. i didn't actually turn, and just immediately after that i heard something that sounded like a shot, but you know, at the point--it was something like an explosion, but it didn't sound loud enough to actually be a shot. mr. hubert. did you see any movement? mr. vaughn. well, at that time there was just mass confusion. mr. hubert. no; i'm talking about a movement after you heard somebody say, "here he comes," and turned and looked back. mr. vaughn. no; sir--as far as any movement on the street. mr. hubert. well, specifically, did you see any move forward? mr. vaughn. oh, no. mr. hubert. which way were you looking when you heard the shot? mr. vaughn. when i heard the shot i was looking back outside the entrance. mr. hubert. onto main street? mr. vaughn. yes. mr. hubert. let me get this straight then--you were standing there facing main street? mr. vaughn. yes. mr. hubert. in the ramp? mr. vaughn. yes, sir. mr. hubert. or a few feet inside the ramp? mr. vaughn. yes. mr. hubert. you heard somebody holler, "here he comes," you glanced over your shoulder, you saw nothing that was of significance? mr. vaughn. no. mr. hubert. then turned back? mr. vaughn. yes. mr. hubert. then you heard the shots? mr. vaughn. then i heard the shots. mr. hubert. and when you turned to look down the basement after you heard "here he comes," you did not see jack ruby down there? mr. vaughn. oh, no--like i said--the only view i had was--there were so many people in there where it was just the very people on the edge--their backs were to me. mr. hubert. after you heard the shot, what did you do? mr. vaughn. there was just mass confusion broke loose in the basement. mr. hubert. did you leave your post? mr. vaughn. i stepped back inside--the people outside--there was quite a crowd beginning to collect outside--i stayed back inside and i drawed my pistol and stood in the edge of the doorway in case anybody tried to come out, because actually i didn't know what had happened, and just immediately after that i seen some of them scuffling down there and i seen a hand--several people scuffling--and i seen part of a hand sticking out and it looked like it had a pistol in it, but that's all i could see was just this part of the hand, and immediately after that there was one man that broke away from the crowd and started up the ramp. of course, he was in civilian clothes, i couldn't tell who he was, and just as he started, i guess he had taken very few steps from the crowd, there was a reserve that hit him more or less a tackle like and almost knocked him down. still, they were far enough from me that i couldn't actually tell who it was. and, so, in a minute this reserve let him pass and he come on up the ramp. mr. hubert. do you know who the reserve was? mr. vaughn. no, sir; i don't. there were so many of those reserves you know who some of them are and some of them you don't. mr. hubert. the reserves let him go and he came up the ramp? mr. vaughn. it was detective e. o. burgess. mr. hubert. you recognized him? mr. vaughn. yes. mr. hubert. and you let him out? mr. vaughn. no, he didn't go out. he just come up and helped me at top of the ramp. mr. hubert. did he give you any instructions or orders? mr. vaughn. no. i asked him, i said, "what happened?" and he said, "he's been shot." i said, "who shot him?" and he said--well, he understood it was a reporter and that was all that was said then, and then immediately after that captain talbert, capt. c. e. talbert come up the ramp and he told me that if anybody tried to leave to get their names and what they had seen in the basement, and he went back down the ramp and shortly thereafter there was a sergeant, i believe, it was sergeant everett--i'm not real positive about that, but he brought me a book to write anybody's name on that did try to leave. mr. hubert. did anybody try to leave? mr. vaughn. yes, one man--it was quite some time after the shooting occurred--after this, one man tried to leave and he was a reporter up here with wfaa--dallas morning news by the name of millican. i asked him his name. he wrote his name down and i asked him what he had seen. he said he didn't see anything, that he didn't arrive until actually after the shooting happened. mr. hubert. how did he identify himself? mr. vaughn. as i recall, with a press card, if i'm not mistaken. i'm not real positive about that. mr. hubert. do you remember an incident in which a tv man by the name of jim turner was involved? he had got out and came back in. mr. vaughn. well, now, there was two men that went out during the time before the shooting actually happened? mr. hubert. no; i mean after the shooting. let me see if i can refresh your memory in this way--a wbap-tv man went out to get some equipment, apparently satisfied you that he could go out, and then when he tried to come back in again, there was another man there, who you were not allowing to pass through, and this other man asked this man turner to identify him to you; do you recall that incident? mr. vaughn. i recall this--there was, like i said earlier, there was two men that went out and got some camera equipment. mr. hubert. when you said "earlier" you mean before the shot? mr. vaughn. oh, yes, yes, sir; it was before the shot--it was shortly after i was stationed on the ramp, i would say right around o'clock. they went out and got some camera equipment. i watched them as they went across the street, the car was parked on main street, and then the same two men--i made definitely sure of that, and when they come back in, they were carrying equipment--one of these men that was in this--i don't know his name--come back to the entrance of the ramp and looked out and he had a taxicab parked on the north side of main street and he waved at that cab and he told me they were waiting, actually, for when the transfer was made and they were going to take this cab to the county, and after the shooting, if i am not mistaken, the same man came back--it was immediately after the shooting, and tried to get back in the ramp--i would not let him in. i told him definitely that nobody could get back down there and he said he had been down there, and i said, "i'm sorry, i can't let you back in," but he had gone back in carrying the equipment and come back and waved at this taxicab driver after that, on the other side of the ramp, and then went back down the ramp, and the next thing i knew he come back from the outside, immediately after the shooting and wanted me to let him back in, and i told him--no. mr. hubert. do you remember some individual who had a couple of bags and possibly some photographic equipment--he looked something like john carradine, do you remember that actor, john carradine, with a wrinkled face? mr. vaughn. no. mr. hubert. this fellow had sort of an overcoat on, a tan overcoat and he tried to get out and apparently you wouldn't let him out there because he didn't have the proper identification, and he called upon a tv man who was coming in and whom you knew apparently, to identify him and the tv man said, "no, i can't identify you." mr. vaughn. no. mr. hubert. do you recall that incident? mr. vaughn. no; i don't. mr. hubert. i think you said that there was one person who came a little later after the shooting who wanted to see ruby? mr. vaughn. yes--this was after--oh, i would say it was approximately an hour or almost an hour after the shooting. mr. hubert. do you know who that man was? mr. vaughn. i don't know his name. mr. hubert. what did he look like? mr. vaughn. he was a great big fellow. now, i would say he was in the middle twenties or late twenties. mr. hubert. did he say to you he wanted to see ruby? mr. vaughn. no, sir--who he actually walked up and asked for--he walked up and i overheard the conversation, if i recall, with one of the reserve officers--they had sent some reserve officers up before that time to help with the traffic and the crowd and i overheard the conversation--he said he was an employee of jack ruby's. when i heard that--we was all standing around there--i went and asked him and he asked me if lieutenant, let me see, i don't remember the lieutenant's name--he asked me if there was some lieutenant there and i told him i didn't know. he said, "well, i am an employee of jack ruby's," and he said, "i would like to talk to lieutenant--" i believe he said cunningham--i'm not real sure; i'm not positive now. anyway, i asked him then what the deal was and he said, "he just needed to talk to him," and i felt possibly--by that time i had found out actually that jack ruby had shot him, and i felt possibly maybe someone wanted to talk to him, and a reserve relieved me on the entrance of the ramp and i went and took this man to the information desk in the basement and i called the homicide bureau and told detective boyd--i don't recall if he is the one that answered the phone, but i told whoever it was what the circumstances was, and detective boyd come down to the basement and he started searching this man and i helped him search him for any kind of a concealed weapon he might have and i turned him over to him and i left. i don't know the man's name, but he said he was an employee of jack's. mr. hubert. was he a heavy man, you say? mr. vaughn. he was quite a big man. mr. hubert. how old would he be? mr. vaughn. i would say he was in the middle twenties or late twenties. mr. hubert. what sort of complexion did he have and how was he dressed? mr. vaughn. i believe he had on a sportcoat and a pair of slacks. mr. hubert. what was his complexion? mr. vaughn. well, he was fair. mr. hubert. how tall was he? mr. vaughn. oh, he was about foot or --he was a tall man, but i believe he was heavier. mr. hubert. heavier than who? mr. vaughn. heavier than me. mr. hubert. what would you say he weighed? mr. vaughn. oh, i would say he weighed around . mr. hubert. was he bald or balding? mr. vaughn. not that i recall--he had quite a bit of hair. mr. hubert. what color was his hair? mr. vaughn. i believe--the best i remember i believe it was black. mr. hubert. did you notice whether he had a limp or not? mr. vaughn. no, sir; i didn't notice. mr. hubert. when did you first hear that ruby was supposed to have passed by you? mr. vaughn. i went immediately, after i took this man to the basement, i seen another officer that was right there in the basement and i asked him--they had already told him to go back to the squad, and so i run on up to , which is the patrol office, and lieutenant pierce was up there and i asked him if he wanted me to go ahead and stay on that position on the ramp out there, or what he wanted me to do and he said to go ahead and check back in service with the dispatcher and go back to the squad, and that was about, i would say, somewhere around o'clock, and i went on back out and i answered a call, i believe i answered a couple of calls, and i answered one out in east dallas and while i was out of the car, getting out of the car going up to talk to the people, they called--i heard a call for me to call , at parkland hospital, which is the officer's room out there at parkland, and so i went ahead and got the information concerned with the call and i got back to the car and went to the phone and i called. i called parkland hospital and talked to captain talbert, and captain talbert asked me if i had seen jack ruby that day and i said, "no." he asked me if i knew him and i said, "well, i know him to the point that probably if i had met the man on the street in a crowd i wouldn't have recognized him, but to the point that if i had some occasion to talk to him, i believe i would," and he asked me if i had seen him and so i told him "no," and i began to wondering about it and i went on and checked out of service and went to the jail office. mr. hubert. in other words, captain talbert did not tell you that there was some idea that ruby had gone by you and got into the basement in that way? mr. vaughn. well, he may have possibly stated something like that--i don't recall, actually. mr. hubert. well, you said a moment ago you got to thinking and worrying about it. mr. vaughn. well, actually when he asked me if i had seen ruby that morning--i don't really recall if he said whether that is the way he is supposed to have come in or anything else. well, i went on, like i said, and i checked out and i went to where i think i seen lieutenant pierce and he told me that that's how ruby said he had come into the basement. mr. hubert. about what time was that? mr. vaughn. oh, i would say it was somewhere around or : . mr. hubert. did you ask him who ruby had told that to? mr. vaughn. i don't believe i did. mr. hubert. do you know now who he told it to? mr. vaughn. well, i understood, of course--i don't know definitely--i understood he told mr. sorrels and detective mcmillon and several more--i don't know. mr. hubert. did you ever talk to pat dean about it? mr. vaughn. dean asked me one time if i knew what ruby had said, i recall, and this was sometime later, and i said i knew what he had said--that that's how he had gotten in. mr. hubert. did dean tell you that ruby had told him that? mr. vaughn. i don't believe he did, mr. hubert, i can't recall exactly what it was. mr. hubert. how long after the event did you have this conversation with dean? mr. vaughn. oh, it may have been possibly the same day--later that afternoon, or maybe the next morning, i don't recall. mr. hubert. did he approach you about it or did you approach him? mr. vaughn. i actually don't recall. mr. hubert. did any of your superior officers question you about whether jack could have gotten by you? mr. vaughn. yes, they questioned me quite extensively about it. that was on sunday it happened, and i worked monday, and i think it was--i talked to lieutenant pierce some, i believe, and tuesday i was off and so tuesday morning around o'clock they called me at home and told me to come in and write a report and so i got up and went down there and wrote a report tuesday, and i was off wednesday. so wednesday night i was supposed to be off thursday at that particular time--i had three days off that week, and i think it was a holiday fell in there somewhere--thanksgiving is what it was--and wednesday night they called me at home, lieutenant pierce called me. i don't recall that it was--whether it was or or o'clock, and told me to come in and go to work thursday morning, that chief fisher wanted to talk to me, and i came in and went ahead and went to work and i worked until, i believe, : or and i got a call to report to on a mark-out. mr. hubert. what is a mark-out? mr. vaughn. that means you are out of service. the dispatcher will show you being somewhere else, and so when i went up there, chief fisher, captain talbert, and lieutenant pierce, i believe, was all sitting in this little assembly room and they were talking, and i didn't say anything else--i didn't say anything to them, and so within a few minutes chief fisher asked me as i recall, now maybe i'm a little bit wrong, as far as he asked me, but somebody asked me if i was ready to go up to his office and i said "yes," and we went on up to chief fisher's office which is up on the third floor and i was accompanied by lieutenant pierce and captain talbert, so chief fisher questioned me about it quite extensively, and i told him the exact story that i had in my report and i have told you, and then he asked me--he said he didn't doubt my integrity, but would i take a lie detector test and i told him--yes, i would take a lie detector test and i went in and detective bentley, who was operating the polygraph, and so i went in and took the test. mr. hubert. did you know at that time that daniels had said that he had seen somebody go by you? mr. vaughn. no, sir--i had contacted daniels, of course--i didn't actually clear my conversation when i talked to him about it--i had contacted daniels--i remember seeing him there, after personally knowing daniels--i knew him by sight, and he knew me by sight, and so---- mr. hubert. when did you contact daniels? mr. vaughn. it was on monday morning. mr. hubert. and you did so, i suppose, because you knew of the possibility that was being talked about that ruby had passed by you and you thought that he was there and he might know? mr. vaughn. i knew he was there--i remember seeing him. mr. hubert. what did he tell you? mr. vaughn. well, i called him at home--he has a business down in south dallas, but it wasn't open--that was the day of the president's funeral, and i called him at home and i believe his wife answered the phone, and i asked her if i could speak to him, and so he come to the phone and i told him who i was and i said, "i remember seeing you down there yesterday, and i just want to ask you something." i said, "do you recall this car--this lieutenant pierce's car coming out of the basement?" and he said, "yes, sure." and, i says, "well, did you see anybody go down that basement while that car was coming out?" he said, "no, definitely not; there was nobody." and, i told him, i said, "that's the way ruby said he got in," and i thanked him and left. mr. hubert. did you ask him whether he saw anybody come by you out to--after the pierce car had passed through? mr. vaughn. no, sir; i don't recall asking him that. mr. hubert. he didn't tell you in any case that he had seen somebody? mr. vaughn. he said there definitely--he said there was definitely nobody went down that ramp but that car. mr. hubert. did he tell you that he had ever seen anybody go through? mr. vaughn. no. mr. hubert. did he deny he had ever seen anybody go through? mr. vaughn. yes, sir; he said he definitely did not see anybody go through. mr. hubert. and was the conversation such that when he told you that, you understood him to mean at any time whatsoever? mr. vaughn. the only part i was asking him about was the point when that car come out, mr. hubert. mr. hubert. in other words, his denial then that he saw anybody come through, you think, because of the nature of the conversation, was limited to whether anybody came through while the pierce car was going through? mr. vaughn. that was the only part that my intention was to ask him about--was that particular one situation that arose there, because the rest of the time i was in the ramp. mr. hubert. tell me this, after the conversation and the examination by fisher and the lie detector test, and so forth, was there any kind of disciplinary action taken against you by the police department? mr. vaughn. no; i had my efficiency cut. mr. hubert. that's one thing i am interested in--tell us about that. mr. vaughn. well, i got cut four points. mr. hubert. is that a drastic cut? mr. vaughn. well, for me it was. of course, in some cases it isn't. i mean, it's just all according to---- mr. hubert. well, you see, we don't know what the efficiency cut of four points means in terms of severity, and that's what we would like to know. mr. vaughn. well, normally for the last or years i have always carried a efficiency, which is a fairly high efficiency, and i got cut four points on one certain thing, which i'm not familiar enough on how they grade on that--to actually explain it to you, but i went up to the civil service board when i got my efficiency and checked to see who, of course, they keep a record of anybody that changes your efficiency. my efficiency was changed by chief fisher. it was cut from a to an and on one particular phase of how they grade you--on dependability. mr. hubert. did you ascertain that that efficiency cut was done because of the ruby incident? mr. vaughn. well, i didn't think--i thought possibly it was over the ruby incident and i went and talked to one of my supervisors and i didn't feel that i should have had a cut on my efficiency under the circumstances but the point to me--there has--they have never actually proved that jack came in that way. mr. hubert. when you spoke to this officer, your superior officer about the fact that you didn't think you should be cut, what did he say? mr. vaughn. well, he said he didn't know what i was cut for. mr. hubert. who was that, by the way, what is his name? mr. vaughn. i believe that was sergeant jennings, if i'm not mistaken. mr. hubert. you know you talked to fisher about it? mr. vaughn. well, i was going to see chief fisher, as a matter of fact i got the lieutenant to talk to chief fisher and he told chief fisher that i did want to see him, and at that time chief fisher was involved in some other kind of business he had--i don't know exactly what it was, but he was busy. then lieutenant pierce told me that i shouldn't go see fisher at this time. he said, "if you will wait, i will talk to fisher." mr. hubert. by the way, this efficiency cut, is that on the basis of a year or a month or what? mr. vaughn. six months. mr. hubert. and this was made about january , i guess? mr. vaughn. yes, sir; i think the efficiency ends in the month of january. mr. hubert. did rio pierce ever report back to you as to whether he had spoken to fisher or not? mr. vaughn. yes, i talked to lieutenant pierce, i believe it was a couple of weeks ago, and he said it was the first opportunity he had had a chance to talk to chief fisher, and my understanding i got from him was that chief fisher said it was for letting tom chabot in the basement. mr. hubert. in other words, you got the impression from pierce, that the efficiency cut was not related to the ruby incident, but rather to the chabot incident? mr. vaughn. yes; to chabot. mr. hubert. i think we need a bit more information as to the severity of this cut. could you give us examples of what point cut they give for what? mr. vaughn. well, you might get or points--i've seen them get cut as high as points. mr. hubert. for what? mr. vaughn. well, just for different things. mr. hubert. well, what would be--what would a four cut be the result of? mr. vaughn. well, normally a point cut wouldn't be too severe, because actually--well, i had a . i got cut points--i got an , which is still a fairly good efficiency, but to me, like i said, under the circumstances and the things i felt it was severe because i didn't quite understand it--that was the point on that. mr. hubert. well, were you in the police building on the d--the day before? mr. vaughn. yes, sir; i was there in and out. mr. hubert. did you see ruby then? mr. vaughn. no, sir. mr. hubert. were you in the police building on the d of november? mr. vaughn. yes. mr. hubert. did you see ruby around there then? mr. vaughn. no. mr. hubert. did you happen to go to that assembly when oswald was brought down to see the press? mr. vaughn. no, sir; i don't know what time that was, but at that particular time we were working days and we got off at o'clock. mr. hubert. i show you three statements which have been marked for identification as follows: a copy of a letter dated november , , addressed to j. e. curry in two pages and i have marked it for identification, "dallas, tex., april , , exhibit , deposition of roy vaughn," and i have signed my name on it and since it has a second page, i have put my initials at the right-hand bottom corner of the second page, and the second document, which is an interview of you by fbi agents lester and larson, dated december , , and for purposes of identification, i have marked this, "dallas, tex., april , , exhibit , deposition of roy vaughn." i have signed my name on that and i have put my initials in the lower right-hand corner on the second, third, the fourth and the fifth pages of that document, and then there is another document, a report of an investigation of you by agents hughes and dallman, dated december , , and i have marked that for identification on the first page as follows, "dallas, tex., april , . exhibit , deposition of roy vaughn," and i have signed my name below that and i have marked the second, third and fourth pages with my initials in the lower right-hand corner. i think you have had an opportunity to read these three exhibits? mr. vaughn. yes. mr. hubert. do you find any corrections, changes, or modifications that you wish to make in the document, exhibit , the letter to chief curry? mr. vaughn. no, sir. mr. hubert. do you find any modifications that you wish to make in the document that has been identified as exhibit , the fbi interview on december , ? mr. vaughn. yes, sir. mr. hubert. would you take the document and tell me what changes or what errors there are or modifications you wish to make? mr. vaughn. this part---- mr. hubert. now, you are pointing to the second page, the second paragraph which is numbered with a ( )--what do you have to say about that? mr. vaughn. the time was probably : and they've got : . mr. hubert. is that the only thing you find in that? mr. vaughn. yes. mr. hubert. what other things? mr. vaughn. well, in no. . mr. hubert. that is the paragraph that is numbered with ( ) on page two? mr. vaughn. it says, "thomas carbet, known to vaughn to be a city employed mechanic, was on business of the dallas police department in a squad car. in connection with carbet, vaughn invited him down"---- mr. hubert. actually, they have carbet, is that wrong? mr. vaughn. actually, it's chabot, but i think that's what i told him, but that's what i meant. mr. hubert. you mean chabot, when you actually told him carbet. the man who is referred to in this paragraph you are talking about, paragraph on page two, was really chabot, is that right? mr. vaughn. yes, sir [spelling]; c-h-a-b-o-t, and that's what i have--what he advised me that he had been sent down for, checking the parking situation. mr. hubert. i don't quite get what you said is wrong with that paragraph. mr. vaughn. well, that would be all right as far as the way it is written--yes. mr. hubert. well, have you any comment about it? mr. vaughn. well, now, the comment was, as i recall, i did tell the two fbi agents that were there that chabot advised me that he had to check the parking situation in the basement. mr. hubert. and that is omitted from that paragraph? mr. vaughn. yes; that is omitted from that paragraph. mr. hubert. now, turning to page three and it is the last long paragraph on that page. mr. vaughn. and it says that, "approximately a.m. a large crowd"--i don't know how they would specify a large crowd--i said i suppose it was probably half a dozen people standing outside the ramp. mr. hubert. so, you wish to correct that? mr. vaughn. i want to change the large--from large to that. mr. hubert. you wish to change "large crowd at a.m." to "about half a dozen people"? mr. vaughn. yes. mr. hubert. were there any other corrections or modifications on that document? mr. vaughn. no, sir. mr. hubert. you have read it through and you believe it correctly represents the content and substance of the interview? mr. vaughn. yes. mr. hubert. now; i ask you whether you have any comments or changes or corrections with reference to the fbi report which has been identified as exhibit ? mr. vaughn. no; that's correct. mr. hubert. that's correct altogether? mr. vaughn. that's correct. mr. hubert. mr. vaughn, would you be willing to state that if a person were to read the three reports that we have identified as exhibits , , and , and if he were to read your deposition here, that he would have the truth so far as you know? mr. vaughn. yes, sir; i would. mr. hubert. now, have you ever been interviewed by any other member of the commission staff? mr. vaughn. no, sir; i have not. mr. hubert. thank you, sir. mr. vaughn. all right. thank you. testimony of detective james c. watson the testimony of detective james c. watson was taken at a.m., on march , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. leon d. hubert, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. hubert. this is the deposition of james c. watson of the dallas police department. mr. watson, my name is leon hubert. i am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy. under the provisions of president johnson's executive order , dated november , , a joint resolution of congress and rules of procedure adopted by the commission in conformance with the executive order and the joint resolution i have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, mr. watson. i state to you that the general nature of the commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of president kennedy and subsequent violent death of lee harvey oswald. and in particular, as to you, mr. watson, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. now, mr. watson, you have appeared here today by virtue of a general request made to chief curry by mr. j. lee rankin, who is the general counsel on the staff of the president's commission. under the rules adopted by the commission you are entitled to a -day written notice prior to the taking of this deposition, and the rules also provide that a witness may waive his -day written notice and i will ask you now if you are willing to waive the notice? mr. watson. yes, sir. mr. hubert. will you please stand and raise your right hand and be sworn? do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. watson. i do. mr. hubert. will you please state your full name? mr. watson. james c. watson. james colvin watson. mr. hubert. your age? mr. watson. . mr. hubert. where do you live, sir? mr. watson. clover lane, dallas. mr. hubert. clover lane. what is your occupation and how long have you been so occupied? mr. watson. city detective. i have been with the police department years, going on years. been a detective about years. mr. hubert. now, were your particular assignment and duties on november , , and the same as today? that is to say, same department? mr. watson. yes, sir. mr. hubert. what is that? mr. watson. auto theft bureau. mr. hubert. normally, of course, members of the auto theft bureau would have nothing to do with homicide and so forth? mr. watson. no, sir; they just took men out of each bureau to help out when they had the lunch out at the trade mart. mr. hubert. and you were simply assigned to assist in the transfer of oswald? mr. watson. yes, sir. mr. hubert. and you were on duty that day? mr. watson. yes, sir. mr. hubert. now, i have marked for purposes of identification what appears to be a photostatic copy of a letter dated november , , addressed to j. e. curry, chief of police, apparently signed by you, consisting of two pages and for the purpose of identification i mark the first page as follows, to wit: "dallas, tex., march , , exhibit , deposition of j. c. watson," and i have signed my name. that inscription is in the right-hand margin of the letter, and on each page i have placed my initials at the bottom of the page. i think you have read that statement? mr. watson. yes, sir. mr. hubert. is that statement correct? does it contain the truth? mr. watson. yes, sir. mr. hubert. any modifications or deletions or additions that you wish to make concerning that letter? mr. watson. no, sir; only difference in that one that apparently either fbi or mr. scott wrote, i show that i was in jack ruby's place, and it says, "several" there, and i have only seen him one time prior to the time this happened, and i only saw him after the shooting. mr. hubert. i think it would be proper for you--when we get to discussing the fbi documents that you repeat that comment. mr. watson. yes, sir. mr. hubert. i have also marked for the purposes of identification a letter to chief curry dated november th, , by c. c. wallace and p. g. mccaghren concerning an interview evidently with you. for the purposes of identification i mark that with the following inscription, "dallas, tex., march , . exhibit , deposition of j. c. watson," and i sign my name. that consists of one page. have you read that, sir? mr. watson. yes, sir; i have. mr. hubert. that's correct; isn't it? mr. watson. yes, sir. mr. hubert. now, in order that the record may show that we are both talking about the same document i would like you to sign your name below mine on both documents and initial the second page, as i have done. mr. watson. initial those pages? mr. hubert. no; sign your name below mine. right there. that's right. mr. watson. and initial the second page? mr. hubert. initial the second page just below my initial. while we are on that second page i notice that is a photostatic copy and--the signature, is that yours? mr. watson. yes, sir. mr. hubert. now, then, would you sign your name below mine on the document marked exhibit ? now, i show you a document purporting to be a report by fbi agent scott of an interview of you which took place, apparently, on november , , and for the purposes of identification, i have marked that document in the right-hand margin with the following inscription, to wit: "dallas, tex., march , . exhibit . deposition of j. c. watson. leon d. hubert, jr." i wonder if you would sign below my name so as the record may show that we are talking about the same document? mr. watson. this is the one? mr. hubert. you are going to have an opportunity to make the correction. just for the purpose of identification put your name on it. now, as to this document, which has now been signed by both of us and identified as , i believe you have some comments to make? mr. watson. i believe--i thought it was, main letter, but it was my second letter that states that i only saw jack ruby one time and the fbi letter taken from it where they show that i had saw him on several occasions. i only saw him one time. we went in there and stayed or minutes. i think we had a cup of coffee and sat and talked to him a little bit, and that is the only occasion i have seen the man before i saw him in the basement after the shooting. mr. hubert. how long before the shooting did that---- mr. watson. i'd say to years, in my estimate. i would say to years. i couldn't be sure. it has been a long time. mr. hubert. when you did see him, did you recognize him? mr. watson. no, sir; i believe i would have recognized him in his place and i did recognize him after the shooting only because i saw two or three people call his name. then i did recognize him. mr. hubert. if you will step over here and have a look at this mockup here on the basement area, generally familiarize yourself with it, there is the jail office, and that is the jail elevator, the corridor entrance, the swinging door, the corridor outside the swinging door. there is the flat part of the ramp. there are the two inclines back there. this is the parking area and that is the ramp coming from the parking area to the ramp between main and commerce. i have also here a chart which i have marked for purposes of identification, "dallas, tex., march , . exhibit , deposition of j. c. watson." and i have put below it my name and i will ask you to sign your name so that the record may show that we are talking about the same document. now, looking at the mockup first, i would like you to show me on the mockup where you were standing at the time of the shooting, and if you had changed positions from the time you first went in there indicate that so that we can mark the several positions that you might have been in. mr. watson. i took a position--you want it here, or over here? mr. hubert. i want you to fix it. mr. watson. generally right here [indicating]. and i had more or less, until we--just previous to the time they brought oswald down, i did take a point near this corner, out somewhere, a point about like this [indicating]. mr. hubert. now, i am marking--is this right? right here? mr. watson. yes, sir. mr. hubert. i am marking a circle. mr. watson. yes. mr. hubert. at the spot which you have indicated on the mockup? mr. watson. that is the general place. mr. hubert. the general place. mr. watson. more or less milling around from there over to here, or feet until right at the---- mr. hubert. the position i have marked with the circle is the position you were in at the time of the shooting, is that right? mr. watson. yes, sir. mr. hubert. i have written on the map, "position of j. c. watson at time of shooting," and i have encircled it and connected it with a line into the circle which you have indicated was the position that you were standing in at the moment of the shooting. as i understand your testimony, you were more or less moving up and down along that position? mr. watson. well, that would have been previous, until the time they were bringing him down. right at the moment, the only difference would be we were probably back--i would probably have been back, i would say, level with the curb line, but at the moment they come out the photographers--and there were some photographers right in this corner, and one more officer, i think, to my left, and more or less--we moved forward just probably a couple of feet, or three. we didn't move over or feet. mr. hubert. you want to make this comment about the position i have marked as your position at the time of the shooting, you say that it is correct, that prior to the shooting you were perhaps or feet-- mr. watson. two feet. mr. hubert. two feet back in the direction of main street? mr. watson. yes; only because as the photographers come forward, we tend to come forward and kind of---- mr. hubert. so, i am going to mark another circle then about feet. this is not going to be accurate, but the purpose of the circle is to show your position prior to the shooting. mr. watson. they bring anyone down, people all naturally seem to move forward a little, just close in a little. mr. hubert. i have written on the map and encircled the following language. "position of j. c. watson prior to the shooting." i'll connect that with a circle, does that conform with your understanding of the situation? mr. watson. yes, sir. mr. hubert. now, what caused you to move forward in that way? mr. watson. just because the photographers and everyone seemed to just move forward a little, just to keep in line. mr. hubert. as oswald was coming out? mr. watson. yes, sir. mr. hubert. so, that accounts for the fact that your position at the moment of shooting was a little further towards oswald than it would have been had you not moved at all, and that difference is about feet? mr. watson. well, i would say not necessarily toward him, just toward the direction he was going. mr. hubert. he was going; yes. all right, sir. do you remember who was on your left? what officer was on your left? mr. watson. i believe blackie harrison was on my left, i believe. mr. hubert. was any officer on your right? mr. watson. not between me and the corner. i don't know whether there was one past the corner of the building between there and the office or not. mr. hubert. do you think there was only the two of you, you and blackie harrison? mr. watson. well, there had been one or two others over there. mr. hubert. right. i don't--only you and harrison keeping back the press from the main street ramp area? mr. watson. yes. mr. hubert. only you two? mr. watson. of course, the press was actually in the basement area, and on the fence there on the guard rail and then at the time they had already--so many of them had gotten over the rail, and were just inside on the ramp area. mr. hubert. i'm going to mark an area just by making a rough oblong figure in which i am writing in the middle "area a," and i ask you if it is that area that you are talking about that you were standing in front of? mr. watson. just practically; yes. i was in front of, and to the right of it. mr. hubert. yes; and how many people do you suppose there were in that area? mr. watson. in that "area a"? mr. hubert. back of you and harrison? mr. watson. not many. mr. hubert. not any at all? mr. watson. no, sir. mr. hubert. i thought you said they surged forward? mr. watson. they are over from this corner, over to about--some point right out here [indicating], and they come over the fence and right in this area right here [indicating]. that---- mr. hubert. now, i am marking a line with the numbers " ," to " ," encircled, is that the line that you are talking about that depress---- mr. watson. from that point " " over to just past this corner was the only area that i know of any photographers being in. that is where they were supposed to be. they were all lined on the rail, but at the moment this starts, they crawl through and come forward a little. that is what makes me come forward a little. mr. hubert. i thought you came forward because of pressure from people behind? mr. watson. nobody behind me. mr. hubert. nobody at all in here [indicating]. mr. watson. i think one or two, but no officers behind me. mr. hubert. did you see ruby come forward? mr. watson. no, sir. mr. hubert. when did you first see ruby? mr. watson. i saw him underneath four or five detectives immediately at my feet in front of me after the shooting. did not see--couldn't have told whether it was white or colored until they had him in the jail office. four or five detectives completely smothering him. i was standing there watching the crowd, looked down once or twice. couldn't tell who it was. mr. hubert. when did you first become aware that there was a shooting? mr. watson. what do you mean? what are you--how are you going to pinpoint it---- mr. hubert. when you heard the shot? mr. watson. when i heard the shot; yes. mr. hubert. you didn't see anybody lunge forward? mr. watson. i glanced at captain fritz. i looked at captain fritz, just looked at the expression on his face, and i looked at oswald. second time i had seen him, just the expression. i noticed the officers behind him back toward the jail office, just a--momentarily, and i heard the shot up there. mr. hubert. in other words, your head was turned in the direction of the jail office and ruby apparently came up from your left? mr. watson. yes. mr. hubert. from the direction on your left? mr. watson. but, your head was turned away from the area? mr. watson. glaring spotlight. we looked--straight ahead, to the right, wouldn't look at the bright lights. mr. hubert. so, you don't know where he came from? mr. watson. no, sir; i assume where he come from but i don't know where he come from. i know where he had to come from. mr. hubert. let's go back to the statement that you made about "area a," there, which would be area in the basement ramp, but before the incline begins? mr. watson. yes; just a flat place there. starts back somewhere, like you say, back here [indicating]. mr. hubert. you're quite sure there was nobody behind you and harrison? mr. watson. no, sir; i wouldn't have left anyone behind us. i mean, we were in a position---- mr. hubert. but i am talking about news media? mr. watson. that is what i mean, i am facing this way and all the news media was on my left. mr. hubert. you had your back to the main street and---- mr. watson. my back to that---- mr. hubert. and nobody behind you at all? mr. watson. nobody behind me except officers at the top of the ramp, that i know of. mr. hubert. and blackie harrison was to your left? how much space between you and harrison? mr. watson. well, sir; he and i were the only two in the ramp opening, in that distance from the corner to here [indicating]. i believe we were the only two and i believe---- mr. hubert. nobody behind you? mr. watson. and i believe an officer or two in here [indicating]. i don't remember moving around so much. i mean we didn't take stationary positions designated. now, we just took positions as we saw fit before they came out. mr. hubert. let me mark another circle here, sir. what i am marking is the approximate position of harrison. mr. watson. i'd say - or -foot over. mr. hubert. right there [indicating]? mr. watson. that's right. i would say he would have been a little closer than that. mr. hubert. i am writing on the map, "position of blackie harrison at time of shooting," and circling that and connecting it with a small circle showing the approximate position of blackie harrison. that is your best estimate of where he was? mr. watson. yes, sir. mr. hubert. he was also facing in the direction of the commerce street--with his back toward main street? mr. watson. i would think so. i mean he could have turned a little, you know. i talked to him a couple of times. he was standing parallel just like i am. mr. hubert. did you ever glance towards main street during the time you were there? mr. watson. i glanced toward--i'm sure, a couple of times. i remember the car going out. mr. hubert. do you know who was driving the car? mr. watson. no, sir; i don't know that. mr. hubert. do you know lieutenant rio pierce? mr. watson. i believe lieutenant pierce was either in it or driving it, yes. i saw him with the car. mr. hubert. did they have difficulty getting through the people? mr. watson. yes. at what point up there? mr. hubert. at the point that you were standing? mr. watson. i would think that there would probably have been two or three reporters here [indicating], and i am sure there were at this point. there was someone that was kind of in the way, and they had to move them, i think. and possibly right on that edge, i think all of the press were either asked or knew to get back at about that time. i think they all got over the rail about that time. mr. hubert. how long had you been standing in this position before the shooting? mr. watson. we had been in there somewhere or minutes. i'd say it must have been , or minutes. mr. hubert. now, do you think that if a man had been coming down the main street ramp just seconds to a minute before the shooting you would have heard his footsteps? mr. watson. i don't think so. mr. hubert. why not? mr. watson. lots of noise going on there. another thing, i am kind of hard of hearing in my left ear. that is the reason, i think that i can't hear some of the things that were said--i got it in the navy. mr. hubert. in any case, you didn't see anybody at all? mr. watson. no; i just remember glancing---- mr. hubert. let me finish my question. anybody coming down the main street ramp? mr. watson. no, sir. mr. hubert. nor did you hear them? mr. watson. no, sir. mr. hubert. would you like to have a seat? do you have anything else you would like to add? mr. watson. no, sir. mr. hubert. do you consider that everything that you know about this matter is contained in the several reports and letters that have been identified this morning by you? mr. watson. yes, sir. mr. hubert. and in your deposition? mr. watson. yes, sir. mr. hubert. nothing else you know about? mr. watson. no, sir. mr. hubert. nothing has been omitted, and there are no corrections you want to make? mr. watson. nothing but the fbi where it says "several". there is "one". mr. hubert. we have already accepted those. that has been noted, of course. mr. watson. yes, sir. mr. hubert. have you been interviewed by any member of the commission's staff prior to this deposition this morning? mr. watson. no, sir. mr. hubert. that includes me, too. mr. watson. no. mr. hubert. thank you so much, sir. testimony of g. e. worley the testimony of g. e. worley was taken at : p.m., on march , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. burt w. griffin, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. griffin. let me explain to you the procedure and then i will give you an opportunity to ask questions and so forth. i want to introduce myself. i am burt griffin, and i am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel's office of the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy. mr. worley. yes. mr. griffin. now, this commission was set up under the executive order , which is an order issued by president johnson on november , , and also pursuant to a joint resolution of congress, no. . pursuant to this resolution and executive order, the commission has promulgated a set of rules, and in accordance with those rules i have been authorized to take your sworn deposition, mr. worley. i want to explain a little bit to you about the general nature of what we are doing here. now, i think as you probably understand, the commission has been set up for the purpose of ascertaining and evaluating and reporting back to president johnson upon the facts and all the facts that might relate to the assassination of president kennedy, and the subsequent murder of lee harvey oswald. we are particularly interested in taking your deposition today, mr. worley, because we want to talk to you about what you know in connection with the events that may have led up to and followed the death of lee harvey oswald. however, that does not preclude any information that you may have concerning any other people. i mean concerning the death of president kennedy. i want to explain this to you, also, that you have been asked to appear here today by virtue of a general request which is made by our general counsel, mr. j. lee rankin, and this request was made in the form of a letter to chief curry. now, actually, under the rules adopted by the commission, you are entitled to have a -day written notice prior to having your deposition taken. however, the rules also provide that you can waive this notice, and i want to ask now whether you would like us to issue the notice or whether it is acceptable to you to waive the notice? mr. worley. it is. mr. griffin. i also want to explain to you that you are entitled to have counsel before this commission at this deposition, and i see that you don't appear here with counsel this evening, and i presume it is because you don't desire one. but feel free to tell us, because there are many people that have appeared here with counsel, and it is perfectly acceptable to us. mr. worley. i don't think i need one. mr. griffin. now, let me ask you if you have any particular questions that you want to ask me? mr. worley. no; i would have to say, after reading that report now, that report from the fbi is not very good. mr. griffin. let me tell you this. then i would like to administer the oath to you so that i can start to take your testimony. i will first hand you the report. i will mark it for identification and hand you the report and ask you to make any corrections. actually, that is going to be about the first thing. i want to get your name and so forth. would you raise your right hand? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. worley. i do. mr. griffin. all right, sir, would you state for the court reporter what your full name is? mr. worley. gano e. worley. mr. griffin. when were you born, mr. worley? mr. worley. february the d, . mr. griffin. where do you live right now? mr. worley. n. ewing, apt. d. mr. griffin. is that in dallas? mr. worley. in dallas, tex. mr. griffin. are you employed? mr. worley. yes. mr. griffin. what is your occupation? mr. worley. i work for lone star gas co. mr. griffin. what do you do for them? mr. worley. i am building operator. mr. griffin. how long have you worked for lone star gas co.? mr. worley. eleven years. mr. griffin. do you also have some connection with the dallas police department? mr. worley. dallas police reserve. mr. griffin. how long have you been in the police reserve? mr. worley. four years. mr. griffin. now, i am going to mark for identification three documents which i have in front of me. i am going to mark for identification exhibit no. , and i have also written on there, "dallas, tex., mr. worley, - - ." this document which i have marked purports to be a report of an interview that you had with fbi agents leo l. robertson and paul s. scott on december , . let me ask you if you have had an opportunity to read this over before coming in here? mr. worley. yes. mr. griffin. now, are there any additions or corrections or changes that you think ought to be made in this? mr. worley. yes; i do. if you will read this one right here [pointing]. mr. griffin. now, you are referring to a letter which i also have in my hand? mr. worley. right. to chief curry from me. mr. griffin. any particular part, if you will tell me what you have in mind? incidentally, i have marked this exhibit which you are referring to, a letter to chief curry, dated november , , purporting to be prepared by you. actually, this is a xerox copy of what would appear to be another copy of an actual letter which purports to bear your signature? mr. worley. yes. mr. griffin. i have marked this, "dallas, tex., mr. worley, - - , exhibit ." now, is there some correction or addition or change that you would make in what has been marked exhibit , the fbi interview? mr. worley. well, right here, if you will see it says---- mr. griffin. you want to read it so we will get it in the record? mr. worley. all right. "worley reported to central police station at a.m. on november the th, , and he was assigned by the regular police sergeant." that is wrong. mr. griffin. all right, who assigned you? mr. worley. reserve police sergeant. mr. griffin. what was his name? mr. worley. croy. that has "regular police sergeant troy". mr. griffin. do you want to take my pen and correct it? write in what you think is necessary to correct it. mr. worley. [makes correction.] i tell you, this is more of an accurate description of what i did. mr. griffin. this exhibit ? mr. worley. right. not this one, because---- mr. griffin. the letter is more accurate than the fbi report? mr. worley. yes; that tells exactly from the time i arrived at the police station to the time i left, and every move that i made in between. mr. griffin. now, we are talking about exhibit , which is your letter of november , , to chief curry. are there any corrections or changes that you would make, or additions that you would make in that statement, that you can think of right now? mr. worley. yes; it states that i met jack ruby sometime when working with squad , or months ago. that was over a year ago instead of or months. mr. griffin. all right. can you tell us how it is that you now think it was over a year ago? what is the basis for that change? mr. worley. well, the officer that i worked with on that beat, i talked to after that, and he hadn't worked that squad in over a year, and it didn't seem like as long to me. mr. griffin. who is that officer? mr. worley. regular officer j. r. sales. mr. griffin. now, did you check? is there any police record made of when you work a particular beat? mr. worley. yes. mr. griffin. have you checked those records to be--to determine when it would have been that you last worked with that officer? mr. worley. no; i haven't. mr. griffin. did you ask him whether he had checked the records to determine that? mr. worley. no; but the reason that i imagine he stated that is because he is working another squad now and he knew that it had been approximately over a year. mr. griffin. now, i want you to feel free to make any changes that you want in here, but i might suggest, and please understand that i want you to if you don't agree with it, i don't want you to do it any other way, but it seems to me from what you have said that an accurate statement would include something to the effect that "i am not sure now of when it was, because i talked with the officer and he said such and such, but i have not checked my records, and i don't know if he has." now, i would suggest that you make some change like that, if you are agreeable. mr. worley. well, that is agreeable with me, because i didn't check the records to see exactly when the last time i worked on that district. but i did talk to the regular officer and he said that he hadn't worked that district in over a year, so one way or the other. mr. griffin. why don't you take the time on that particular exhibit and write down something that would reflect accurately what happened, on there. you want me to write it for you? mr. worley. on that last sheet, the exhibit, the next one? mr. griffin. on worley exhibit no. . mr. worley. this one corrects that, and it says it on there. mr. griffin. i see. it is right down at the bottom. now, i don't see it on here. mr. worley. [reading.] i would have swore. i read that over a little while ago. i guess i didn't. i'm sorry, it is not in this one. i knew i seen it in one of them. it is in the police report. mr. griffin. it is in the fbi report. well, these are true and accurate copies, are they not? mr. worley. yes. mr. griffin. i have the letters that you gave? mr. worley. yes. mr. griffin. all right. now, i am referring to exhibits and . now, is exhibit the interview report, as it is corrected with respect to reserve officer croy, is that an accurate report of the interview which you had with those people? mr. worley. yes; but there was some of the things that they had in here are not what i gave them. mr. griffin. they aren't? all right. what do they have written down there that you didn't tell them? mr. worley. well, just like it was signed. it says regular police sergeant troy, and it should have been reserve police sergeant croy. mr. griffin. you have made and incorporated a correction on there, haven't you? mr. worley. yes. mr. griffin. so, insofar as that portion now reads, that is the way the interview actually went? mr. worley. well, then again it says here [pointing] "some stop right there * * * to the information desk in the basement to send the other reserve officers to the basement parking area"--i don't see that. mr. griffin. what did you say? mr. worley. i said to the basement detail room. mr. griffin. okay. do you want to make a correction on there? mr. worley. [correcting.] i believe it is all right now. mr. griffin. if exhibit as you have corrected it then accurately reflects what you told the fbi agents, would you initial and date the corrections that you have made on there? mr. worley. you want me just to initial this down here? mr. griffin. put initials where you have made corrections and a date afterwards. mr. worley. [signs and dates.] mr. griffin. do the same thing with that one up there. mr. worley. [complies.] mr. griffin. all right. would you also sign it down at the bottom and date it with your regular signature? mr. worley. [signs and dates.] mr. griffin. now, if these other copies that i have given you here, worley exhibits nos. and , are true and accurate copies of letters which you sent to chief curry, i would appreciate your also signing and dating those. mr. worley. [signs and dates.] mr. griffin. now, i want to direct your attention to exhibit , which is a copy of a letter which you addressed to chief curry, and which is dated november , . do you remember when it was that you actually wrote this letter? mr. worley. it was that date. mr. griffin. it was. now how did you happen to write that letter? mr. worley. i was instructed by reserve coordinator capt. j. m. solomon, regular police captain, to write the letter to chief curry. mr. griffin. now, where were you contacted? how were you contacted by captain solomon? mr. worley. by telephone to my office. mr. griffin. at your office? mr. worley. yes. mr. griffin. now, did you write that out in handwriting or did you have it typed, or what? mr. worley. i wrote it out in handwriting and then had it typed. mr. griffin. who typed it? mr. worley. mr. worley's secretary. mr. griffin. in your office? mr. worley. yes. mr. griffin. the original typed copy of that--do you recall whether that was on a letterhead stationery or anything? mr. worley. no; just on plain paper. mr. griffin. plain letter paper? mr. worley. yes. mr. griffin. you indicated here in exhibit that you were assigned to a position on the north side of the parking area to keep any cars away from the first two parking spaces. and you said that you stood at that post until about or minutes before lee harvey oswald was shot. do you recall whether when you were moved from that post an armored car had been moved or attempted to move into the ramp? mr. worley. it was backed in the ramp. mr. griffin. now, do you recall anything that happened with respect to that armored car? mr. worley. they couldn't get it down in the basement. it was just backed up to it as far up in the door as they could get it, because it wouldn't clear the top to come down in the basement. mr. griffin. during the time that you were down in the basement at your spot, do you recall whether any cars moved in or moved out of the parking area in the garage in the basement? mr. worley. from the time that i was posted out there? mr. griffin. yes. mr. worley. until when? mr. griffin. until the time that you were removed from that post, did any traffic go in and out of there? mr. worley. yes; it was police cars coming in and out all the time. mr. griffin. how long did you stand at that post, to your best estimate? mr. worley. well---- mr. griffin. i understand it is difficult. do you think you were there an hour? mr. worley. i was there over an hour. mr. griffin. all right. now, in the period that you were standing at your post, do you recall any other reserve officers being stationed also guarding particular spots in the basement? mr. worley. well, there was quite a few reserve officers down in the basement, and they searched all the cars in that basement. mr. griffin. let me ask you this, mr. worley. i am going to pull out here a chart, and i think we can talk a little easier about this chart. this is a map or chart which has been prepared originally by the dallas police department on a much larger scale, and we have reduced the size of it, but it is a chart of the basement area. now, so you understand what is happening here, over here is commerce street, and over here is main street, and there is the jail office. harwood would be out where your hand is, and pearl expressway would be over here closer to me. mr. worley. yes. mr. griffin. now, will you look over there at commerce street. you will see that there is a heavy black line? mr. worley. yes. mr. griffin. now, that heavy black line represents the basement wall. the basement, according to this diagram, actually extends out under the sidewalk, so at this point approximately where the sidewalk ends there is a dotted line. now, that represents where the wall is if you were standing out on the sidewalk and were looking at the building. that is where the wall goes up on the outside, so that actually as you look at the diagram, you ignore the dotted line when you are in the basement, because it extends all the way. and on the side near main street, we have the same kind of dotted line, and have the black line. it means the same thing. now, will you place on the chart an "x" on the spot that you were stationed by sergeant croy? excuse me; i want to correct the record. you have stated in your letter of november that captain arnett placed you at a point in the basement. can you show us where captain arnett placed you? mr. worley. right here [indicating]. mr. griffin. all right. now, would you put a circle around that "x"? mr. worley. [complies.] mr. griffin. now, at the time you were placed there, had the search of the basement commenced? mr. worley. no. mr. griffin. at the time you were placed there, were any other reserve officers stationed at any other spots in the basement? mr. worley. no. mr. griffin. did you remain there during the search? mr. worley. yes. mr. griffin. do you recall, and i am only asking for your recollection, and if you don't remember, state that, do you recall seeing anybody come over to this area marked stairs up and do anything there? mr. worley. there was a telephone man tried to go out that stairway, and i happened to know the telephone man. i don't know what his name is, but he comes to our building frequently and works, is the reason i recognized him. and he tried to get out this door, and he was stopped by a regular officer and asked for his credentials. mr. griffin. and then was he allowed to go out that door? mr. worley. no. mr. griffin. about what time was that? mr. worley. about o'clock. mr. griffin. did you observe anybody lock that door? i am asking for your recollection? mr. worley. no; i didn't. mr. griffin. let me ask you this: did you watch the search of the basement? mr. worley. yes. mr. griffin. did you watch anybody search over in this area by the elevators and the stairs? mr. worley. yes. mr. griffin. what did you see them do? who did you see search over in that area, if you recall? mr. worley. i don't recall any of the officers names. mr. griffin. do you recall his rank? mr. worley. i am not sure, but i think it was a sergeant, regular officer. mr. griffin. was he a regular sergeant? mr. worley. yes. mr. griffin. was anybody else with him, if you recall? mr. worley. i don't believe so. mr. griffin. now, could you tell us what he did over in that area? mr. worley. well, these elevator doors were closed. mr. griffin. yes. mr. worley. and he checked the door to see if it was locked, and it was. he couldn't even go out. he couldn't open the door. mr. griffin. did he have anybody with him at the time that he checked that door? mr. worley. no. mr. griffin. now, do you have a clear recollection of this? mr. worley. that is hard to say. mr. griffin. you know sometimes we have a visual image, and sometimes there is something that happened or for some reason that you know you watched this. is there anything---- mr. worley. well, there was people that they brought in a bunch of reserve officers in the basement from the detail room, and they came out in here and they started back in here. mr. griffin. you are now sort of indicating back in the area toward main street underneath the sidewalk? mr. worley. and he searched all these cars back in here to see that, i guess, that there was nobody in there. they didn't tell me, but they were searching back in here, and he just covered this back all the way to the ramp here. then they went right on around and covered the whole parking area down in the basement back to me. mr. griffin. all right. now, those people were sort of moving in a group? mr. worley. right. mr. griffin. now, when this regular sergeant got over to the doorway, was that group with him? mr. worley. no. mr. griffin. or was he alone? mr. worley. no. i am almost positive that he was over here while they were searching back over here, and he was by himself. mr. griffin. i see. now, do you recall this particular officer going to the service elevator? mr. worley. no; i don't. mr. griffin. do you recall if at any time there was somebody in that service elevator? mr. worley. no; i don't. mr. griffin. do you recall seeing any building personnel down in the basement? mr. worley. yes; i do. porters. and i don't recall how many. i saw some porters and maids, and i am pretty sure that they were on this elevator. mr. griffin. service elevator? mr. worley. yes; it was standing there with the door open, and somebody told them to go on up in the building, and close that elevator off. mr. griffin. now, do you recall when that was in relationship to the search of the basement? mr. worley. it was before they searched the basement. mr. griffin. do you recall who that officer was that did that? mr. worley. no; i don't. mr. griffin. all right. would you be able to state whether it was that officer who talked to those maids and porters? was it the same officer, the same sergeant who also checked this door? mr. worley. there was none. mr. griffin. you think you would recognize either one of those officers if you saw them again? mr. worley. no; i don't think so. mr. griffin. is there anything that makes you, in your mind, convinced about one sergeant than the other officer who checked the service elevator? mr. worley. no. mr. griffin. so, are you able to explain for the record--i am not trying to trip you up or anything--i am trying to probe your recollection here--are you able to explain to us how it is that you recall that they were different officers? mr. worley. no; i am not. mr. griffin. different heights? mr. worley. no; there is nothing that would be--maybe i am thinking that they were even the same person, or different people. mr. griffin. and in other words, your answer is that you just don't know if they were the same? mr. worley. i don't know. it could have been the same person or could have been two different people. mr. griffin. all right, now. do you recall ever seeing anybody go over into this area that is marked, where it says "to engineroom", and check anything over in that area? mr. worley. i saw them search over that way but from where i was, i couldn't tell whether they were back in here or not. mr. griffin. after the search was over, do you recall if any other officers were stationed down in the basement? mr. worley. yes. there were some more reserve officers down in the basement stationed there. mr. griffin. would you mark where the reserves were? why don't you put a "r" and a circle around it where there was a reserve. mr. worley. this is lt. ben mccoy, reserve officer. i stationed him there myself. mr. griffin. where did you station him? why don't you write "mccoy" under his name then? mr. worley. yes. captain arnett was over here [indicating]. mr. griffin. put an "a" in front of the circle. all right, now, any other reserve officers that you recall? mr. worley. there was a reserve officer down here, and i don't know his name. mr. griffin. put an "r" there and question mark under it. were there any regular officers stationed any place in the basement? mr. worley. there was a regular sergeant right here for quite awhile. i couldn't say approximately how long. mr. griffin. was he there a half hour before oswald was shot? mr. worley. oh, yes; i would say it was about maybe an hour or before. mr. griffin. i don't mean for what length of time, but when did he leave that spot? mr. worley. about an hour. i would say an hour before oswald was shot. mr. griffin. do you recall any officers being stationed by the elevators? mr. worley. yes; there was a regular officer there. mr. griffin. why don't you put a circle there and write "regular" under it where that man was? now, do you recall any other regular officer? mr. worley. no; i don't. mr. griffin. and the time that you left, that was sometime after the armored car arrived? mr. worley. right. the armored car was backed into this ramp. mr. griffin. commerce street ramp. do you recall whether or not any of these men had been moved? mr. worley. no; i don't. mr. griffin. do you have any recollection of seeing any of these particular men in the basement at the time lieutenant mccoy reassigned you? mr. worley. yes. captain arnett and lieutenant mccoy and this officer were in the basement when i left. mr. griffin. how about this officer up here? mr. worley. i couldn't say. mr. griffin. you went to the corner of commerce and central expressway? mr. worley. the next block down. this is central expressway, and the next block is north, northbound. mr. griffin. how did you walk out? mr. worley. went up the south ramp by the armored car, sitting right here. and i went on this side of it, which would be--i am trying to place that. that would be east side of the armored car. walked down the sidewalk two blocks to the corner of commerce and central expressway, northbound. mr. griffin. would you recognize jack ruby if you saw him? mr. worley. now? mr. griffin. would you recognize him then? mr. worley. right now? mr. griffin. no; at the time you walked down that street, would you have recognized him if you had seen him? mr. worley. i don't believe i would. the only time that i had ever seen the man was when i was working with squad , and we made the place that he owned down there. we just made a frequent call, or just stopped in there to see if there was any trouble or anything, and then went on. i met him one night, and i had seen him when i was in there. but those places are kind of dimly lit and you don't see too much in them, and really and truly, i didn't pay too much attention to meeting him anyway. mr. griffin. now, do you recall if any time after the armored car arrived any automobile came in or out of the basement area after the armored car arrived? mr. worley. no; i don't believe so. i don't believe a car came down the ramp after that armored car was backed in there. mr. griffin. did you see any cars drive out of the basement after the armored car came down? mr. worley. no. mr. griffin. now, did you see any television cameras in any area of the basement after the armored car arrived? mr. worley. there were television cameras in the basement before that armored car arrived. mr. griffin. all right. as you walked up the commerce street ramp, where did you see television cameras? mr. worley. when i was assigned to the basement, in these first two stalls right here, they were putting these cameras up right behind. there is a rail that runs right along there. mr. griffin. would you mark the spot where the tv cameras were? why don't you put a box? mr. worley. two cameras. two or three. there was so much confusion down there that day. mr. griffin. when you walked out to go up the commerce street ramp, do you recall what television cameras you saw? mr. worley. down in the basement? mr. griffin. yes, sir. mr. worley. these two cameras that were here, that had been there all the time. mr. griffin. do you recall seeing any other tv cameras as you walked out? did you see any up here by the armored car? mr. worley. i don't recall of seeing any. mr. griffin. all right, did you see any down on the ramp or in the garage area, or up on this ramp? mr. worley. no; i didn't. mr. griffin. now you indicate in here that, in your letter or statement of november , that you saw from your position a man jump over the railing, saw a man come down the north ramp, which would be the main street ramp, and jump over the railing in the parking area, is that right? mr. worley. yes. mr. griffin. how long was that before you left the basement, would you say? mr. worley. hour or hour and a half. mr. griffin. do you have any thought that that man was jack ruby? mr. worley. it wasn't. mr. griffin. now, between the time--i notice this is the second report, letter--that was you got this letter of november ? mr. worley. yes; i was interviewed by these two special service officers, and they took this statement. mr. griffin. how did you come to describe that man? how did that come about? did they ask you if you saw anybody jump over a railing, or anything like that? mr. worley. yes; they did. mr. griffin. now, prior to the time that you prepared this letter of november , had you talked with anybody about having seen this man jump over the railing? mr. worley. no. mr. griffin. i want you to think carefully. after the time, did you hear anybody else say--prior to the time you drafted the letter, that he saw a man jump over the railing? mr. worley. no. mr. griffin. did you get any indication from lieutenants cornwall and revill as to how they came to inquire about that particular man? mr. worley. no. mr. griffin. or about a man jumping over the railing? mr. worley. all they did is ask me if i saw anybody come down that ramp in particular. and i stated that i had seen that man come down and jump over that rail there in the basement, and he was challenged by an officer and he identified himself and the officer let him go on. mr. griffin. well, let me understand this then, i think your answer to me initially was that these two lieutenants asked you specifically if you saw a man jump over the railing? mr. worley. no; asked me if i saw anybody come down the ramp. mr. griffin. i see. mr. worley. and then i told them about the incident of the man jumping over the rail. mr. griffin. were you interviewed in a room with other officers when lieutenants cornwall and revill conducted this interview? had a number of reserve officers been assembled together and they talked with them? mr. worley. no; i was told to report to that special service office at a certain time, and there was one other officer in the room when i came in. mr. griffin. who was that officer? mr. worley. lt. ben mccoy. mr. griffin. was he interviewed before you or after you? mr. worley. he was just fixing to leave. mr. griffin. did you have any conversation with him? mr. worley. spoke to him. mr. griffin. did you mention anything about this man to him? mr. worley. no. mr. griffin. about the man coming down the ramp? mr. worley. no. mr. griffin. when you finished with the interview, do you remember who the next man was behind you? mr. worley. no; i don't. mr. griffin. do you recall what time in the morning, day or night, your interview was with revill? mr. worley. it was, oh, i believe, november was on a saturday that i came up there. it was a saturday, because i was off. i was at home, and i came up there. mr. griffin. was that in the morning or afternoon? mr. worley. it was in the morning. mr. griffin. do you recall whether they had interviewed reserve officers, had set up appointments for reserve officers prior to saturday? mr. worley. i don't know. mr. griffin. do you know the name of each reserve officer over here? mr. worley. no; i sure don't. mr. griffin. have you seen that reserve officer since the time oswald was shot by ruby? mr. worley. no; i wouldn't recognize him if i saw him. mr. griffin. you wouldn't recognize him again when you saw him? i am talking about the reserve officer about whom you have placed a question mark on the chart. do you have anything further that you want to tell the commission that you think might be of any use to them? mr. worley. i don't know of anything else that i could add to it. mr. griffin. now, let me ask you this: have you been interviewed by any member of the commission staff prior to this deposition? mr. worley. no; i haven't. mr. griffin. i will make this one last general request. if anything comes to your attention which you believe could be of assistance to the commission would you come forward with it, regardless of what your personal feelings may be and so forth? mr. worley. yes; i would. mr. griffin. i will appreciate that. mr. worley. i sure would. mr. griffin. okay. mr. worley. glad i met you. mr. griffin. nice to have met you. [add this to worley]: after mr. worley left, i realized that i neglected to get him to sign the chart that we had been using to explain the various positions in the basement, and the court reporter says that was because i was hurried. and i notice in looking at this i also neglected even when i corrected this afterward to write after mr. worley the date, so i will write that in now. - - . and i wrote that in a space between the word mr. worley and an exhibit number which i had already put on there, exhibit . testimony of lt. woodrow wiggins the testimony of lt. woodrow wiggins was taken at p.m., on march , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. leon d. hubert, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. hubert. this is the deposition of lt. woodrow wiggins of the dallas police department. lieutenant wiggins, my name is leon hubert, jr. i am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel on the president's commission. under the provisions of the president's executive order , dated november , , the joint resolution of congress no. , and the rules of procedure adopted by the commission in conformance with the executive order and joint resolution of congress, i have been authorized to take the sworn deposition from you, lieutenant wiggins. i state to you now that the general nature of the commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of president kennedy and the subsequent violent death of lee harvey oswald. now, in particular to you, lieutenant wiggins, the nature of the inquiry tonight, is to determine what facts you know about the death of oswald and the other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. you have appeared here today by virtue of a general request made to chief curry by the general counsel of the staff of the president's commission, to wit, mr. j. lee rankin, who wrote him a letter asking you all be made available. the rules of the commission provide that you be entitled, if you wish, to a -day written notice prior to the taking of this deposition, but the rules also provide that if a witness cares to do so, he may waive the -day written notice and, so, i now ask you if you are willing to waive this -day written notice which otherwise you would be entitled to? lieutenant wiggins. yes; i am willing to waive it. mr. hubert. so, will you stand and raise your right hand and be sworn. do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? lieutenant wiggins. i do. mr. hubert. please state your full name. lieutenant wiggins. woodrow wiggins. mr. hubert. your age? lieutenant wiggins. forty-six. mr. hubert. where do you reside, sir? lieutenant wiggins. west corning street, dallas, tex. mr. hubert. what is your occupation? lieutenant wiggins. i'm a lieutenant on the dallas police department. mr. hubert. how long have you been in the dallas police department? lieutenant wiggins. eighteen years. mr. hubert. how long have you been an--a lieutenant? lieutenant wiggins. since october , . mr. hubert. what particular department do you serve with, sir? lieutenant wiggins. i am with what is known as the service division. i have under my control the dispatcher's office, the jail and the service division and all the substations. mr. hubert. who is your immediate superior? lieutenant wiggins. chief lumpkin. mr. hubert. lumpkin, and over him would be---- lieutenant wiggins. chief batchelor. mr. hubert. then, of course, chief curry? lieutenant wiggins. yes. mr. hubert. so, the line of command between you and chief curry is batchelor, lumpkin, then wiggins? lieutenant wiggins. that's right. mr. hubert. what are your particular duties? lieutenant wiggins. that depends, of course. could i quote here and say that on certain times i have different duties? mr. hubert. yes. lieutenant wiggins. that i have a jail lieutenant that works for me, on his days off, i watch the jail, or pass on prisoners and supervise the jail as well as the other things, and when the jail lieutenant is there then i am at liberty to inspect substations and do--the dispatcher's offices and the jail, wherever i may be needed. mr. hubert. on november , what was your situation? lieutenant wiggins. i was working the jail. my jail lieutenant was off that day. mr. hubert. now, working the jail entails what responsibilities and duties? lieutenant wiggins. i'm in charge of everything that goes on in the jail, and among other duties, i pass on all prisoners that are put into jail. mr. hubert. when you say "pass," on them, what do you mean? lieutenant wiggins. i check to see their--the arrest is legal, and that i think the charge is proper and that this person belongs in jail before he is placed in jail. mr. hubert. now, have you any duties or responsibilities with respect to the transfer of prisoners, in your capacity as jail lieutenant? lieutenant wiggins. nothing more than as is normal to turn them over to either the constable or deputy sheriff who transfers them to the county jail. mr. hubert. with reference to prisoners who are transferred from the city jail to the county jail, is it customary for your department to transfer them to the county jail, or is it customary for the state deputies to come and get the prisoner? lieutenant wiggins. it is customary for the deputy sheriff or constable to come and get a prisoner. mr. hubert. do you know why an exception was made in the case of oswald? lieutenant wiggins. i was never told. mr. hubert. in other words, normally, it would have been sheriff decker's duty to come and get oswald, is that correct? lieutenant wiggins. normally, it would have been that way. mr. hubert. do you know, or did you ever hear it discussed, the reason why the normal procedure was not followed? lieutenant wiggins. no; i haven't. when i make that statement--i have surmised that it was for better protection due to the fact that we have more men, possibly, than sheriff decker did. that is strictly a surmise of mine, of my own. mr. hubert. what security had you provided for oswald within the jail itself? lieutenant wiggins. well, as a rule, we used a trustee to run our jail elevator. i relieved the trustee from the jail elevator and placed a patrolman on it. and put two officers in front of oswald's cell at all times. mr. hubert. that is on the th, or at all times since he was arrested? lieutenant wiggins. well, that was--the th, was my first day back since that time. i had been off days prior to that. mr. hubert. and when you came on duty on the th, did you find that security which you have described, already in existence? lieutenant wiggins. i found that they had one officer in front of the cell, but that they didn't--they still had a trustee running the elevator. mr. hubert. and you changed that. you took the trustee off and put an extra man on the cell? lieutenant wiggins. that's right. mr. hubert. i suppose that oswald was moved in the course of the th a couple of times for interviews and so forth? lieutenant wiggins. i know that i received a call from the fifth floor that some detectives from the homicide bureau were up there to take him out on what they call a "tempo," and this is to take him out for interrogation. mr. hubert. when he was taken out that way, was he accompanied by the guard that you assigned? lieutenant wiggins. no; the guard could not take him to the interrogation room. mr. hubert. and "tempo," is a receipt for a prisoner which relieves you, temporarily, of the duties you have with respect to him? lieutenant wiggins. that's true. mr. hubert. and when he is brought back, your duties and responsibilities for his custody attach to you again? lieutenant wiggins. yes. mr. hubert. now, did you have anything to do with the search of the basement for security? lieutenant wiggins. no, sir; i was in and out of the basement looking it over, but i had no duties with the basement. mr. hubert. i understand. did you remain in the jail office performing your functions as to incoming prisoners? lieutenant wiggins. that's true. mr. hubert. did you know of any of the plans for removal of oswald, or the transfer? lieutenant wiggins. i knew of no plans. i had been informed by the platoon that--i believe that it was understood that he would be transferred after o'clock in the morning. now, that was---- mr. hubert. no one gave you any orders or assigned any duties to you in connection with the transfer? lieutenant wiggins. no. mr. hubert. did any sheriff come with a warrant for his release? lieutenant wiggins. not to my knowledge. mr. hubert. well, under normal circumstances would you allow a prisoner to be removed by the city police? lieutenant wiggins. yes. mr. hubert. he would be out of your custody on "tempo," is that right? lieutenant wiggins. not necessarily. let me say this: that the--that the city police transfer prisoners on occasion over to the county jail. mr. hubert. yes. lieutenant wiggins. but, this is rare. it is--there are instances i can name. for instance, they have filed on a prisoner and just for courtesy to the prisoner, more or less, he wants to get to the county and they just transfer him on down to the county themselves. mr. hubert. how do you relieve yourselves of responsibility in those circumstances? lieutenant wiggins. each prisoner who is transferred, the card is signed, or the name of the officer that is making the transfer is placed on his card. his property is turned over to the officer making the transfer. mr. hubert. was this done in this way? lieutenant wiggins. no; in this case, they were going to take the property later. mr. hubert. naturally, he was in the custody of captain fritz at the time of the transfer, isn't that right? lieutenant wiggins. that's right. mr. hubert. he had been released from your custody by a "tempo" card to fritz? lieutenant wiggins. that's true. mr. hubert. and fritz could do what he wanted with him? until he relieved himself of the obligation of the "tempo" card by putting him back in your custody? lieutenant wiggins. that's true. mr. hubert. when were you first aware that oswald was going to be moved in the immediate future? lieutenant wiggins. when was i aware that he was en route, or---- mr. hubert. yes. lieutenant wiggins. or, being moved to the county? mr. hubert. yes. lieutenant wiggins. i'd say possibly a minute before the shooting occurred, they called me--someone called me from the--captain fritz' office, the homicide bureau, and told me they were en route down the elevator with oswald, and i know that when i hung the phone up i looked in and could tell by the elevator lights it was on the way down. mr. hubert. now, in your statement you fix that moment at : . how do you fix that? do you remember now how you fixed that? lieutenant wiggins. i remember looking at our clock as they came by. i don't know why, but i looked, just to be sure. mr. hubert. that is the big electric clock, that is on the wall there? lieutenant wiggins. big electric clock on the wall there. mr. hubert. the wall that is adjacent to the ramp? lieutenant wiggins. well, i don't know what you mean, "adjacent to it," it is directly--on the wall directly in front of the hallway. mr. hubert. well, as you come into the jail office, from the corridor, that clock is on the wall to your right? lieutenant wiggins. yes. mr. hubert. is that an electric clock? lieutenant wiggins. yes, sir; it is. mr. hubert. do you all check it frequently? lieutenant wiggins. no; but maybe just occasionally might call the bank to get the time, but---- mr. hubert. will you estimate just how accurate that clock is, normally, and was on the day in question, the th? lieutenant wiggins. no; i would say that it was possibly, i'm sure, not over to minutes off either way. mr. hubert. do you think that there could be a minutes difference? lieutenant wiggins. no; i certainly don't. mr. hubert. well, you see what i mean. in other words, you say it could be minutes off either way, then there could be a difference--no, i see what you mean. could be a difference of only minutes. have you ever known it to be that much off? lieutenant wiggins. not to my knowledge. i don't recall the time that i---- mr. hubert. as a matter of fact, being an electric clock the only thing that will stop it from working is if the current went off, is that right? lieutenant wiggins. yes, sir. and, now, i don't recall on any particular details of ever having set that clock for--or anyone having set it. i don't know. mr. hubert. did you rely on that clock for timing other events in your business of running the jail office? lieutenant wiggins. repeat that question. i am not sure i understand what you mean. mr. hubert. i take it that the time of various events, like the time of a prisoner's release on bond, or the time that he is actually brought in is a matter of record in some instances, with the police? lieutenant wiggins. yes. mr. hubert. in other words, the time and the entry of that time on the record is a part of your function? lieutenant wiggins. yes. mr. hubert. do you rely on that clock? lieutenant wiggins. most of the time. sometimes i look at my watch, but most of the time i look at the clock. mr. hubert. now, : , you have as the time you first noticed the elevator coming down, and in a few seconds after that i guess they passed by? lieutenant wiggins. no, sir; the time at : that i am speaking of, i remember i looked at the clock as they were coming out of the elevator. mr. hubert. it was : just then? lieutenant wiggins. of course, that is only a matter of seconds. mr. hubert. now, they passed by you? lieutenant wiggins. as they came down, and as they came off the elevator captain fritz was the first man off, and he said, "are they ready?" and i know that then i stepped out of the door, and i don't recall whether i ever answered him or not, but i stepped out into the corridor first. if i would have answered him i am sure i have--would have told him that it was ready, but i don't recall whether i did or didn't because i presumed they were ready, as everyone else did, and i know i stepped out into the corridor, to the left as you went out the door. i stepped to the left possibly or feet from the door, and they passed me then. mr. hubert. on your right? lieutenant wiggins. yes, sir; they passed me with oswald at that time, and had proceeded past me approximately or feet when the incident happened. mr. hubert. did you see any shooting at all? lieutenant wiggins. i heard the shot, and did see the gun, but at--but not at the time of the shooting. i saw the gun after the officers had grabbed it and had swarmed jack ruby. mr. hubert. describe jack ruby coming out of the group. lieutenant wiggins. i saw a man coming out. i had no idea who it was, but, i mean, it happened so quickly i caught it in the corner of my eye, and i saw him out of the corner, saw him coming out of the crowd, but i didn't know at that time who it was. mr. hubert. just about what position in the crowd did he come from? lieutenant wiggins. if you were familiar with that location i could tell you exactly. mr. hubert. well, now, we have here a mockup of the area, and also a corresponding chart that you can use, and for purposes now of identifying it, i am going to mark this document as follows, "dallas, tex., march , . exhibit no. , deposition of woodrow wiggins." and i am signing my name to it, and i ask you, for the purpose of identification to sign beneath my name. now, first of all, you--using the mockup to get your own position, and then secondly, i ask you to mark on this chart that we have identified your position by placing a circle actually at the place where you were. lieutenant wiggins. where my position was? mr. hubert. at the time the shot was fired. lieutenant wiggins. all right, sir. i had come out of this door and i had stepped to along here, just about there [indicating]. mr. hubert. just put a circle there. lieutenant wiggins. okay. mr. hubert. now, i am writing--you have marked a little mark there and i have put a circle around it and i am marking here, "position of wiggins at the time of the shot." and circling that, is that correct? lieutenant wiggins. that is prexactly (sic) correct. mr. hubert. now on that same map would you put a mark which i am also going to circle later and identify as to the spot as best you can recollect it where you first saw ruby coming out. lieutenant wiggins. the spot where he was? mr. hubert. where he was. lieutenant wiggins. when i saw him? mr. hubert. yes; the spot where he was when you saw him. now, look at the mockup first and get your distances. lieutenant wiggins. i have an idea or just about---- mr. hubert. would you just mark it there, the spot there were you first saw ruby? lieutenant wiggins. approximately. i could miss this a foot or , you understand that? mr. hubert. all right. lieutenant wiggins. all right. now, your cameras were over here behind the--behind this with the lights, and where i saw him, he was approximately, i'd say, about there [indicating]. mr. hubert. now, i am marking this--lieutenant wiggins has marked a spot in the basement area. i am putting a circle around that spot, and connecting it with a line, i am writing "position of ruby when seen by wiggins." is that correct, sir? lieutenant wiggins. yes. now, this spot that i would be--that i would say to be to where i first noticed that--the movement that attracted my attention right there. mr. hubert. all right. lieutenant wiggins. and by the time that i had time to think and look, it was over, but that is approximately the place. mr. hubert. all right. you had known jack ruby before this, i understand? lieutenant wiggins. yes, sir; i have known jack ruby for years. mr. hubert. when did you first recognize him? lieutenant wiggins. the first time that i recognized him, who it was was after they brought him into the jail office. he was on the floor still covered, or surrounded by the officers is when they picked him up off the floor and stood him on his feet in the jail. mr. hubert. did he say anything to you? lieutenant wiggins. i don't recall him saying anything there. mr. hubert. did you ever talk to him afterwards? lieutenant wiggins. yes, sir; i talked to you the--i talked to him the next morning. i went up to see if he was all right. this was approximately : , the following morning, i went to see that he was all right. i asked him how he was feeling, and he said, "as well as could be expected." and i asked him if he was being treated all right. and he said, "yes; they are treating me fine." and i don't recall saying anything else to him at that time. mr. hubert. had you--have you spoken to him since? lieutenant wiggins. no. mr. hubert. do you know who called a doctor? lieutenant wiggins. yes, sir; when the shot was fired, as soon as i saw that i could be of no help out there, they had ruby. they had the man, and they were surrounding--i immediately whirled, came in the office, and when i found one of my officers there, slack, i told him to call the doctor, that oswald had been shot. mr. hubert. did you then notice what time it was? lieutenant wiggins. no, sir; i didn't. i don't recall. mr. hubert. slack was where? lieutenant wiggins. he was standing right by the desk inside the jail office. mr. hubert. so, he put the call in? lieutenant wiggins. yes, sir; he called himself, then let me say this, that after they brought ruby in, then i turned and came back out the door and after they had brought ruby and oswald, after they had gotten him in i checked by telephone myself. mr. hubert. who did you speak to then? lieutenant wiggins. i called one of them in the dispatcher's office, but i don't remember who i checked with. mr. hubert. now, i am marking a document purporting to be a letter dated november , , addressed to j. e. curry, chief of police, apparently signed by you, by marking on the right-hand margin these words, "dallas, tex., march , , and exhibit . deposition of w. wiggins." i am signing my name on the first page, and placing my initials on the lower right-hand corner of the second page. i am marking a four-page document purporting to be a report of an interview with you by special agents of the fbi, chapoton and smith, dated december , , by writing in the right margin on the first page of that document the following: "dallas, tex., march , . exhibit , deposition of w. wiggins." i am signing my name and i am placing my initials on a second, third and fourth page of that document by putting those initials in the lower right-hand corner. i ask you to look at these two exhibits and tell me whether you have had an opportunity to read them? lieutenant wiggins. yes; i have. mr. hubert. do those documents represent what you know to be the truth? lieutenant wiggins. yes; there is an error on the third page. mr. hubert. of which one? lieutenant wiggins. of the document taken by the federal bureau of investigation. mr. hubert. will you state what you consider to be the error and give us what you consider to be the truth? lieutenant wiggins. it starts on the eighth line, on the top of the third page where it starts--the sentence starts, "they had proceeded some or feet--" excuse me. it is the one in front of that. the latter part of the last sentence of the eighth line. sentence reads, "in their midst, were out past him. wiggins," and it should read, "in their midst, went out past him. wiggins." and the next sentence---- mr. hubert. i'm not sure i got that distinction. lieutenant wiggins. all right. see this? see this then should be, "went out past him." not, "were out past him." mr. hubert. in other words, in the eighth line, the fourth word from the end of the eighth line should be the word "went" instead of the word "were," is that correct? lieutenant wiggins. that's true. also, the next sentence, as it is written here, "they proceeded some or feet from the jail office door when he, wiggins, saw a man lunge towards oswald and he heard the report of the gun." that sentence should read, "they had proceeded some or feet past wiggins when wiggins saw a man lunge towards oswald and he heard the report of a gun." mr. hubert. in other words, as the exhibit itself now reads, or as the sentence now reads it gives the impression that they had proceeded or feet from the jail door. lieutenant wiggins. yes, sir. mr. hubert. whereas, your recollection is that it was or feet from where you were standing, and were you--you were standing about or feet from the jail door, so that to catch the sense properly it would be that they had proceeded about to feet past the jail door. lieutenant wiggins. true. mr. hubert. all right. now, are there any other corrections or modifications? lieutenant wiggins. no, sir; rest of it is---- mr. hubert. are there errors in either of those two exhibits? lieutenant wiggins. the rest of it is as i---- mr. hubert. any omissions that you would like to correct, or---- lieutenant wiggins. no, sir; nothing. mr. hubert. anything to be deleted? lieutenant wiggins. no, sir. mr. hubert. now, mr. wiggins, have you been interviewed by any member of the commission staff, other than myself? lieutenant wiggins. no, sir. mr. hubert. now, with respect to myself, we had an interview last night, did we not? lieutenant wiggins. yes, sir. mr. hubert. now, are there any inconsistencies that you are aware of between the matters discussed in our interview last night and your deposition taken tonight? lieutenant wiggins. well, we didn't discuss this last night. you and i didn't. mr. hubert. did you discuss it with mr.---- lieutenant wiggins. we--i didn't discuss any of this. the only thing that i discussed with any one last night was with you, and that was that the time and so forth that i would be here tonight. mr. hubert. oh, i see. when did you get to read your statement? lieutenant wiggins. last night. you gave your report to me last night. mr. hubert. but, we had no other discussion? lieutenant wiggins. no, sir; not on this. mr. hubert. so, in fact, there was really no interview with--even with me? lieutenant wiggins. when you speak of interview, i meant conversation. i did have conversation with you last night, but not anything pertaining to this. mr. hubert. nothing inconsistent that happened between the interview of last night and what you said today? lieutenant wiggins. no, sir. mr. hubert. nor, i take it, is there anything of a material nature that transpired in the interview of last night which has not been developed tonight? lieutenant wiggins. i don't believe i quite understand what you mean. mr. hubert. in view of the fact that you have already stated we had not discussed it, i think it answers itself, but the point i am wanting to make is there was nothing that was talked about last night that we didn't talk about today, obviously that is so, because it wasn't talked about last night. lieutenant wiggins. that's true. testimony of don ray archer the testimony of don ray archer was taken at : p.m., on march , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. leon d. hubert, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. hubert. this is the deposition of don ray archer, isn't that correct? mr. archer. yes, sir. mr. hubert. mr. archer, my name is leon d. hubert. i am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel on the president's commission under provisions of executive order , dated november , , and the joint resolution of congress no. , and the rules of procedure adopted by the president's commission in conformance with the executive order and the joint resolution. i have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, among others. i state to you now that the general nature of the commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relevant to the assassination of president kennedy and subsequent violent death of lee harvey oswald. in particular as to you, mr. archer, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. now, mr. archer, you appear today by virtue of a general request made by j. lee rankin, general counsel of the staff of the president's commission to chief curry. under the rules adopted by the commission, you are entitled to a -day written notice prior to the taking of this deposition, but the rules adopted by the commission also provide that a witness may waive this -day written notice if he so wishes. now, do you desire to waive that notice? mr. archer. i will waive. mr. hubert. all right. will you stand and raise your right hand. mr. hubert. do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. archer. i do. mr. hubert. will you state your name? mr. archer. don ray archer. mr. hubert. and your last name is archer? mr. archer. yes. mr. hubert. your age, sir? mr. archer. i am . mr. hubert. where do you reside? mr. archer. san francisco, dallas, tex. mr. hubert. what is your occupation? mr. archer. i am police officer for the city of dallas. mr. hubert. how long have you been on the police force of the city of dallas? mr. archer. ten years, may . mr. hubert. what particular duty or function do you have with the police department? mr. archer. i am a detective assigned to auto theft bureau. mr. hubert. who is your immediate superior? mr. archer. my immediate superior would be lieutenant smart, and then capt. j. c. nichols, who is the head of our bureau. mr. hubert. did you have the same position and rank and duties and occupation during the period of november to , ? mr. archer. yes; i did. mr. hubert. now, where were you stationed when you first came on duty on november , ? mr. archer. on november , i reported for duty at a.m., at the auto theft bureau, which is my normal procedure when i report for work. mr. hubert. then did you go about performing your regular duties in the auto theft bureau, or were you assigned extra and other duties? mr. archer. well, at the beginning of the morning i was performing my regular duties and carrying out my assignments and making my general investigations. mr. hubert. that is in connection with routine auto thefts? mr. archer. yes, sir. mr. hubert. were you taken from that routine of duties? mr. archer. yes, sir. mr. hubert. by whom, and at what time? mr. archer. as i recall, and as near as i can recall, and this is only approximate, about : a.m., lieutenant smart came into our bureau and advised us that chief stevenson had asked us to stand by to remain in that bureau, to await further orders, which we did. and i continued carrying on what work i could there in the office concerning my reports. mr. hubert. so that the first order you got was to remain where you were, not move out, and stand by? mr. archer. not to leave, that's right, and to be there. mr. hubert. all right. what happened after that? mr. archer. well, as near as i can remember we did stay in the--in the bureau, or at least i did until, oh, i would say approximately : a.m. and that is only an approximate time because i don't remember looking and seeing the exact time. mr. hubert. well, what happened at that time? mr. archer. at that time, lieutenant smart came in and, of course, we had been aware that the subject, oswald, would probably be transferred that day. mr. hubert. what made you aware of this? mr. archer. well, for one thing, just the press itself, and quite a bit in the papers and all. we just had it in our minds that we would. actually, nobody told me specifically that he would be, but like i say, it was in my mind. i just had that impression. mr. hubert. so, at approximately : , you received orders from whom, you said? mr. archer. lieutenant smart. mr. hubert. to do what? mr. archer. he told us to follow him and to go to the basement, which we did. we left our office and walked to the elevators, got in the elevator and then proceeded into the basement. mr. hubert. which elevator did you use? mr. archer. we used the interior elevator, of which there are two moving from the basement to the fourth floor. it is generally inside the building. mr. hubert. the public elevator? not the jail elevator? mr. archer. oh, no, sir. mr. hubert. you were in uniform? mr. archer. no, no, sir; i was in civilian clothes, much as i am right now. white shirt, tie and suit. mr. hubert. you don't wear uniforms? mr. archer. no, sir; i am a plainclothes officer. mr. hubert. now, you referred to "we" indicating that there were several of you there. who were the others? do you remember? mr. archer. i couldn't name you all the officers, i know detective clardy and detective mcmillon and detective dawson and lieutenant smart and myself were on this. we rode down in the same elevator. that's all i recall. there were other officers that eventually gathered in the basement, riding down, that is the only ones that i recall. mr. hubert. did that party move as a party as you left the elevator? mr. archer. as a group. mr. hubert. that is what i mean. where did you move to from the elevator? mr. archer. well, after we got onto the--into the basement--the elevator door was open--now, we got off and walked to in front of the jail office and i believe lieutenant smart told us to standby there for further orders. then he walked away, at that particular time and i stayed standing against the south wall, the south wall which was opposite the jail office. mr. hubert. was that outside the---- mr. archer. outside the jail office. mr. hubert. outside the jail office doors? mr. archer. well, no, sir; it is before you leave the corridor, going into the basement in front of the jail office, but not into the basement entrance. mr. hubert. i see. how long did you stay there? mr. archer. it would be hard for me to say the exact time. in general i'd say about , maybe minutes that we stayed there. mr. hubert. all right, then where did you move to next? mr. archer. while standing there in front of the office, captain jones came through with chief batchelor, passed in front of us, entered the basement and, as i recall, they stood there and had some conversation. i didn't hear the conversation. couldn't tell you what it consisted of, but after seeing this talking to chief batchelor, captain jones came back and said, "i want this corridor kept clear," and at the same time he did, the doors opened up. this was the corridor going into the basement in front of the jail office, "i want the corridors kept clear," and he didn't necessarily order me. he indicated--just said, "i want the corridors kept clear," and that is when i took my station on the north side of the jail door, right where the corridor goes into the basement, and also where the jail door opens into the basement where the automobiles are parked. mr. hubert. can you tell me about what time it was that you took that station that you just described last? mr. archer. may i--my approximate time--oh, sir, i couldn't give you an exact time from the time that would elapse, i would say approximately : , or : a.m. like i say, that is only an approximate---- mr. hubert. let's try to get at it another way. about how long before the shooting did you take that post? mr. archer. i would say at least minutes previous. prior to the shooting. mr. hubert. did you leave that position that you have just described in any substantial way? i understand you weren't standing stock still, but substantially, did you remain in that location until the shooting? mr. archer. yes, sir; i did. mr. hubert. i would like you to have a look at this mockup here and at the basement chart which is in conformity with it, and i am identifying this particular basement chart that i am going to ask you to testify about by marking on it, "dallas, texas, march , . exhibit . deposition of don ray archer," is that right? mr. archer. yes, sir. mr. hubert. now, i am signing my name on it, and for the purpose of identification, i will ask you to put your name below mine. mr. archer. all right, sir. mr. hubert. now, you--use the mockup first to determine the exact spot that you were standing in at what we'll call your final position. mr. archer. yes, sir. mr. hubert. in which you were approximately minutes before the shooting. i say, using this mockup, i want you to place yourself wherever you were, and relate it to the map or chart, or draw a circle in the spot at which you were. first of all, show to me on the mockup where you were. mr. archer. i was at this position right here, sir. in other words, this door--this door here [indicating] had it been open--in fact, it was open. i was helping to hold it open. right on the corner of this particular--it is not exactly a pillar, but just to the corner of that---- mr. hubert. if i put a circle right here, would that be the spot you are talking about? mr. archer. yes; it would. mr. hubert. i am making a circle and drawing a line out, and i am writing, "position of archer for about minutes prior to the shooting." i am drawing this circle around that legend, and connecting the circle which marks your position with the circle which describes it, is that correct? mr. archer. yes; it is as near correct as i can recall. mr. hubert. when the party came out, then the doors swung in to you, is that right? mr. archer. sir, as i remember it, when the party came out, now, as near as i can recall, the doors [were] open. mr. hubert. opened which way? mr. archer. i just couldn't say. i have thought about that, but i don't remember exactly. i'd say--as i was showing you here, i was standing enough to this side to hold this door. mr. hubert. to hold the---- mr. archer. this is the door [indicating]. mr. hubert. the corridor door? mr. archer. the corridor door, yes, sir; not the jail office door. mr. hubert. do you remember whether the jail office door sort of cornered you? mr. archer. no, sir; it couldn't corner me. it didn't interfere with me at all. mr. hubert. it is a swinging door, isn't it? mr. archer. yes, sir; it is. i am sure--i feel like in my own mind, it was open. mr. hubert. swung open into the jail area? mr. archer. swung open into the jail area. in my own mind, as i say, i can't be certain about that point, because i just don't recall. mr. hubert. well, i suggest to you that if you had--if it did open the other way, it would have kind of boxed you in. mr. archer. i don't believe it did. that is the reason i have it in my mind that it was opened the other way, because i recall no interference from the door whatsoever. mr. hubert. you don't remember being boxed in? mr. archer. i know i wasn't boxed in, no, sir. mr. hubert. tell us what happened then when the party came down that was transferring oswald? mr. archer. well, as they brought oswald down to the basement, now, the first officer that i saw was captain fritz. as he started out the jail office door he stopped and paused, and whether he said something to the detectives with oswald, i don't know. he didn't--motioned to them like for them to wait a second, like i say, i didn't hear any command or any orders given at that time, and then he proceeded to walk out, and i would say probably at that particular point, took about three paces. then the detectives started out with oswald. mr. hubert. now, as the party moved, they moved away from you, i guess? mr. archer. yes; they did. mr. hubert. but, they were in your line of vision? mr. archer. yes, sir; they were. mr. hubert. tell us what you saw? mr. archer. well, as they passed in front of me, i could see--i could see the detectives on each side of oswald leading him towards the ramp. the automobile ramp in the basement. then as they neared the front of the ramp--now, keeping in mind that in this position that i was in, i did have some bright lights shining into my eyes, and that because of these lights it would be hard for me to recognize someone on the opposite side of the ramp. i mean, you know, without focusing my vision directly on them. in other words, i couldn't take a scanning view and possibly recognize just anyone, but as they approached the ramp, just as they reached the edge of the ramp, i caught a figure of a man. the movement first turned my attention to that point. i had been watching oswald and the detectives, and more to my right, and then i caught the movement of a man, and my first thought was, as i started moving--well, my first thought was that somebody jumped out of the crowd, maybe to take a sock at him. someone got emotionally upset and jumped out to take a sock at him and i started to move forward, and as i moved forward i saw the man reach oswald, raise up, and then the shot was fired. mr. hubert. so you were in motion before the shot was fired? mr. archer. well, i would say just it would be instantaneous. i mean, when i saw the movement i feel like i started moving, too. mr. hubert. when did you first recognize ruby? mr. archer. i didn't recognize ruby at all. i didn't know the man personally, and i didn't know his name (nor i didn't even know who admitted the shooting) until following the shooting when they asked him his name and he said, "you all know me, i'm jack ruby." mr. hubert. was that when he was overpowered? mr. archer. that was as we took him back to the jail office after the shooting. mr. hubert. did he make any observation or remark or say anything at all before he was moved into the jail office? mr. archer. sir, an instant before i heard the shot, i heard a phrase. now, i couldn't say what the phrase was and then i definitely---- mr. hubert. you mean you don't know what the phrase was? mr. archer. no, sir; i don't know. i couldn't say what the phrase was, because i had not heard, but i did hear the words, "son-of-a-bitch," and then the shot was fired. mr. hubert. do you know who said it? mr. archer. yes, sir; i know ruby said it. i'm positive of that. i was looking right at the man. mr. hubert. you mean that you didn't hear anything except those four words, "son-of-a-bitch"? mr. archer. that is the only words i could make out. mr. hubert. and you knew it was coming from him? mr. archer. yes, sir; i thought that it did. mr. hubert. how far were you from him? mr. archer. i would say, at that particular time, i was five, maybe six paces. mr. hubert. where did he move from? mr. archer. sir, when i saw him, he was approaching the detectives. it was my first glimpse of it. i, personally, could not say where he moved from. he came out of the crowd, as far as i could tell, because that was all that was around was the press and officers, lining the corridors so far as i knew, sir. mr. hubert. could he have come up from the area where the television cameras were located? mr. archer. yes, sir; he could have. when he came into my vision, he was already in front of the detectives, and i did not see exactly where he did come from. mr. hubert. what detective was he in front of? mr. archer. detective--the ones that had oswald, which would be mr. leavelle and mr. graves. mr. hubert. do you know what detectives ruby passed by in his motion from his prior position to when you saw him? mr. archer. no, sir; i--my own personal knowledge, now, well, if you are speaking about that time, i did not; no, sir. mr. hubert. what you are saying, i think, is that you found out subsequently? mr. archer. yes; subsequently. mr. hubert. but at the moment, you didn't recognize them? mr. archer. at the time if someone had asked me who had been standing there, i couldn't have said, sir. mr. hubert. all right, then, he was brought into the jail office immediately? mr. archer. after the shot was fired, sir, i tried to move forward, but i was cut off by the other officers. the--i started forward, well, the struggle went to my left as i moved forward, individually worked itself way around in back of me, and just as they reached the jail office, well, i took his left arm and assisted them in walking--i went into the jail office with him. mr. hubert. all right. what happened next? mr. archer. after we took him into the jail office? mr. hubert. yes. mr. archer. after we got the subject into the jail office i still didn't know who he was. someone asked where the gun was. now, i had not, up to this point, seen the gun other than just an instant after the shot was fired when i caught sight of this man again, which was ruby. i didn't see the gun. i was interested in knowing where the gun was, or if he still had the gun and we took him on into the jail office and i assisted in keeping his left arm behind him and someone got his right. i couldn't say who it was that had his other arm. laid him down on the floor, his head and face were away from me at that particular time. but that is when i said, "who is he?" i made that statement, because i didn't know who it was and ruby then turned his face in my direction. he didn't look directly at me. his face had been turned in this manner [indicating]. he then turned in this manner [indicating], and he--that is when he said, "you all know me, i'm jack ruby." mr. hubert. what happened next in that jail office area? mr. archer. when we had the subject on the floor, i was reaching for my handcuffs. i reached back in this manner [indicating] to unhook my handcuffs off my belt, and detective mcmillon was astraddle and over him, over ruby, and i believe i said, "mac, do you need my cuffs?" about that time, "no; i have got it now." and said he placed the cuffs on ruby. mr. hubert. what did you do next? mr. archer. after he got the cuffs on him, there were still--oh, there was still lots of confusion going on, and several statements were being made or being asked. i don't know. they seemed--some of the statements seemed to come from behind me. i don't know whether it was reporters looking into the jail office or just who it was, but there were some statements made inquiring--several people were asking, "who is he?" did he hit him? did he shoot him? or things of that nature, as i recall. and he said at that particular point, "i hope i killed the son-of-a-bitch." i think captain king was there just a very short time. we began to get--mcmillon and i and detective clardy, i know the three of us and perhaps one or two other officers, i couldn't say for sure, assisted ruby to his feet, and we started toward the jail elevator with him, along with captain king. i believe captain king said at that point in there somewhere, "let's get him onto the elevator and take him to the fifth floor jail." so, we then went to the elevator. they put him on the elevator, and i believe that i was either last, or near the last getting on the elevator, and then we proceeded on to the fifth floor jail. mr. hubert. what did you do when you got up there? mr. archer. after we got to the fifth floor jail we took him back to the investigative section of the jail, which is just an open section, not a cell. just an open section of the jail, and we began to search him for any weapons. we were, at least i was mainly concerned as to whether he had any other weapons on him at all. we stripped him and stripped him of his clothing, and i wasn't interested too much in personal property, but mainly searching for weapons or bombs, or anything else he might have concealed on him. mr. hubert. did you find any personal property on him? mr. archer. did i find any personal property on him? mr. hubert. yes. mr. archer. yes, sir, i searched him. i did remove some personal property. i recall a large roll of money and perhaps some change. i'm not sure about that. the main thing i remember was the large roll of money. mr. hubert. what did you do with the property you took from his person? mr. archer. we had been there--before i started removing any personal property; well, i searched him by feeling of him, you know, feeling for any weapons first, and then one of the other jailers, uniformed jail officers, haake, came up and what personal property i took out of his pockets, i handed right over to him. i didn't bother to itemize it or anything else, because that is their job, not ours, and---- mr. hubert. you didn't make an inventory of his property? mr. archer. i didn't; no, sir. mr. hubert. you just handed it over to another man? mr. archer. yes, sir; i did. mr. hubert. did you talk to ruby then? mr. archer. yes, sir; we did. mr. hubert. what did he say? mr. archer. during--after we--as i began searching him, making the general search of him, as we were standing there i said--i had seen oswald on the floor in the jail office after he had been brought in there and i looked at him, and to me he looked like he was dead. of course, i couldn't say he was dead, but i am saying that to me he looked like he was dead, and i said to ruby at that time, "jack i think you killed him," and he just looked at me right straight in the eye and said, "well, i intended to shoot him three times." mr. hubert. did you know jack ruby? mr. archer. no, sir; i didn't know him. i wouldn't recognize the man if i saw him on the street. i do--i knew of him. i had heard the name before. i did have--i did recollect that he had been handled by the department, but i never arrested him, and i had never seen him. mr. hubert. but, you knew the name was jack ruby, though? mr. archer. sir? mr. hubert. you knew the name was jack ruby, though? mr. archer. i didn't know the name was jack ruby other than he told me his name was jack ruby. mr. hubert. now, i am handing two documents, which i'm identifying as follows, to wit: one document apparently is a copy of a statement dated november , , addressed to chief curry, apparently signed by you, which i am marking, "dallas, tex., march , . exhibit no. , deposition of d. r. archer," i have signed it on the first page, and i have initialed the second page by marking my initials on the lower right-hand corner, and another document which i have marked in the right margin, "dallas, tex., march , . exhibit , deposition of d. r. archer," and i have signed my name below that, and put my initials on the second page, bottom right-hand corner. and i would like you to examine those exhibits, please, and then after you have done so, i wish to ask you some questions about them. mr. archer. now, then---- mr. hubert. have you read both of them? mr. archer. i have read this one [indicating]. mr. hubert. well---- mr. archer. you want me to read---- mr. hubert. yes; read both of them. mr. archer. all right. all right, sir. mr. hubert. now, you have read the exhibits we have marked and . now, i will ask you if those statements contain the truth as you knew it? mr. archer. yes, sir; with one correction here in this statement that is headed by "federal bureau of investigation". mr. hubert. i think you will find that that is exhibit . mr. archer. , yes, sir. it is not correct when it states that i remained with ruby until approximately p.m. i believe that that was : p.m., as stated in my report. as i recall, when i was interviewed by the gentleman, i did say : . now, like i say, it could be my error, could be theirs, but---- mr. hubert. were there any omissions from, of fact from those statements? mr. archer. any what, sir? mr. hubert. any omissions of fact. mr. archer. well, i didn't go into every detail. there are several statements that i didn't include in this report, and of some of the conversation that took place in the jail and during the time that i was with ruby, and then some of the statements that were made downstairs. by this, i mean when this investigation was made. i didn't have in mind of any testimony being involved, that it was--more or less an investigation as to how ruby got into the basement, and what the security breakdown was. that my--that was my impression. mr. hubert. i think you are relating to the fact that both of those statements omit any statement as to what ruby told you concerning his intent to kill? mr. archer. yes, sir. mr. hubert. now, i wish to afford you an opportunity to state why that fact, or those facts were omitted from the statements? mr. archer. well, at the time, i just didn't consider them pertinent to the investigation that was in progress, and i just didn't recall them as important information at the time. and as i explained, it was in my mind that it was an inquiry, more or less, as to where i was and what i was doing, and of an inquiry as to whether there was any negligent on my part in regards to this security breakdown. mr. hubert. do you think that the inclusion in these two statements of his phrase "son-of-a-bitch," was more important than his statement of his intent? mr. archer. sir, at the time, it is like i say, whenever i gave the statements i had in mind as to what i saw at the time of the shooting, and that did take place at the time of the shooting, and i didn't go into great detail as to what took place after we took him into custody, took him upstairs and searched him and all. in other words, i had in mind that if anyone wanted to know about it, well, they would be afforded a chance for me to relate that. mr. hubert. when, in fact, did they find out that you had this knowledge? mr. archer. i don't recall the exact time or day. mr. hubert. did you file another report than those we have here? mr. archer. i have another report that is the part mental interview which was taken, as i recall, from the date, on november th, which was a continuing inquiry as to how ruby got into the basement of the city hall. i believe that it was taken by lieutenant mccaghren and lieutenant c. c. wallace. mr. hubert. in that statement you did not mention what ruby told you concerning his intent either, did you? mr. archer. no, sir; i did not at that time. mr. hubert. when did you first convey that information to anyone at all? mr. archer. to mr. alexander with the district attorney's office, when he made a court inquiry at the city hall. mr. hubert. when was that? mr. archer. i don't remember the date, sir. mr. hubert. well, how long after the shooting? mr. archer. i just couldn't say. mr. hubert. well, was it before christmas, for example, or after? mr. archer. i don't remember. i do know that alexander---- mr. hubert. how long before the trial began did you convey this information to anyone? mr. archer. i would say approximately weeks. now, that is just a guess, because i just don't recall the time there. mr. hubert. well, tell us the circumstances under which this inquiry was made of you concerning the intent to kill as expressed by him? mr. archer. mr. alexander made the inquiry in talking to us together, and also individually, as to what we heard that might be pertinent, what might not be pertinent at that time, and i went over and related all that i could recall. mr. hubert. and that was the first time you mentioned to anyone at all what you had heard ruby say regarding his intent? mr. archer. as far as i recall; yes, sir. mr. hubert. and that was about weeks before the beginning of the trial. mr. archer. i would say very--approximately. that could vary, because i don't remember the date. i wish i could, but i didn't make any particular note of it. like i say, at the time, i just didn't take note of it. mr. hubert. well, now, do you mean to say to me that you did not regard those two statements made to you by ruby as being important in a trial of this man for first-degree murder? mr. archer. no, sir; i didn't say that i didn't regard them as important. i just say at the time that these statements were made it was in my mind that it was not necessarily a gathering of facts to try the man. mr. hubert. well, i gather from your testimony that you didn't convey this information to anybody at all until you were asked to do so in an interview with mr. alexander, which, from your testimony, i judge to be approximately the middle of january or afterwards, which is to say, months after the event. now, i ask you if you did not think that that information was extremely valuable information in a pending prosecution for first-degree murder? mr. archer. i didn't, at the time, give it a thought in the way of prosecution, because in my own mind i didn't feel that a lot of the statements would be admissible. i don't know what would be admissible and what wouldn't. mr. hubert. it never occurred to you that it was your duty to tell your superior officer, or somebody that you had heard that this man said, "i meant to kill him"? mr. archer. no, sir; it didn't. had they inquired about it, i certainly would have told them. mr. hubert. all right, have you anything else to say, sir. mr. archer. no, sir; not unless there is something more you would like to ask me. if i can relate, or tell you anything, i would be happy to. mr. hubert. now you have not been interviewed by any member of the commission or by me, before, have you? that is to say, a member of the president's commission, on the assassination? mr. archer. not the president's commission. i have been interviewed by the federal bureau of investigation, which you know about. mr. hubert. but no interview by me or any other member of the commission staff? mr. archer. yes, sir. mr. hubert. this deposition is the first time you have said anything to any member of the commission staff? mr. archer. yes, sir; so far as i know. mr. hubert. all right. that's all. thank you, sir. testimony of barnard s. clardy the testimony of barnard s. clardy was taken at : p.m., on march , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. leon d. hubert, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. hubert. this is the deposition of detective barnard (spelling) b-a-r-n-a-r-d? mr. clardy. yes, sir. mr. hubert. middle initial s. clardy. auto theft bureau, criminal investigation division, police department of dallas. mr. clardy, my name is leon d. hubert. i am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the president's commission on the assassination of president kennedy. under the provisions of the executive order no. dated november , , the joint resolution of congress number , and the rules of procedure adopted by the commission in conformance with the executive order and the joint resolution, i have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, detective clardy. i state to you now that the general nature of the commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of president kennedy and subsequent violent death of lee harvey oswald. in particular as to you, detective clardy, the nature of the inquiry is to determine what facts you know about the death of oswald and any other pertinent facts that you may know about the general inquiry. now, detective clardy, you appear here today by virtue of a general request made by the general counsel of the staff of the president's commission, mr. j. lee rankin to chief curry. under the rules adopted by the commission, you are entitled to a -day written notice prior to the taking of this deposition, but those rules also provide that a witness may waive the notice. now, do you waive this -day notice? mr. clardy. yes. mr. hubert. very well. now, will you stand and be sworn, please. raise your right hand. do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you god? mr. clardy. i do. mr. hubert. will you state your full name, please? mr. clardy. barnard s. clardy. mr. hubert. your age? mr. clardy. thirty-seven. mr. hubert. your residence? mr. clardy. ferncliff trail. mr. hubert. and your occupation? mr. clardy. police detective. mr. hubert. how long have you been so occupied, sir? mr. clardy. since november , . mr. hubert. how long have you been connected with the criminal investigation bureau? mr. clardy. since december the th, . mr. hubert. now, is--who is head of the auto theft bureau? mr. clardy. captain nichols. mr. hubert. captain nichols, and the entire criminal investigation division, of which the auto theft division is a part is headed by chief stevenson, is that right, sir? mr. clardy. chief stevenson; yes, sir. mr. hubert. now, detective clardy. i'm going to mark three documents as i will indicate, after which i wish to ask you some questions concerning those documents. at first, a document consisting of three pages being, apparently, a copy of a letter dated november , , addressed to chief curry, the original of which was apparently signed by you, b. s. clardy? i am marking the first page of that document "dallas, tex., march , , exhibit no. . deposition of detective b. s. clardy." under which i am signing my name, and i am placing my initials in the right-hand lower corner of the second and third pages of that document. the second document purports to be a report from the fbi concerning an interview with you on november , . i am marking that document in the lower right-hand corner as follows: "dallas, tex., march , . exhibit no. , deposition of b. s. clardy," and i am signing my name and putting my initials on the second page in the lower right-hand corner. the third document consists of three pages, and purports to be a report of an interview of you on december d, by agents quigley and dallman of the fbi. on the first page i am marking as follows, to wit: "dallas, tex., march , . exhibit no. . deposition of b. s. clardy." signing my name on the first page, placing my initials on the second and third pages in the lower right-hand corner on each of those pages. now, detective clardy, i hand you these three documents and--identified as and and , and ask you if you have had an opportunity to read those today? mr. clardy. yes, sir; i have. mr. hubert. do those documents represent substantially the truth of all you know concerning the matter under inquiry this morning--this afternoon? mr. clardy. yes, sir; they do. the only thing that i find that i erred on was in the time. mr. hubert. well, now---- mr. clardy. on my statement, that the approximate time where i went down was approximately instead of , and the approximate time that we brought mr. jack ruby from the jail to captain fritz' office was approximately : , instead of : . mr. hubert. those corrections you wish to make on the document marked ? mr. clardy. . mr. hubert. as i understood it, there were two time corrections that you think should be made, is that correct? mr. clardy. on that document alone, sir. and this was approximately closer to a.m., on this other document. mr. hubert. let's see. you wish to make a correction as to the time with reference to clardy exhibit no. , to wit, your letter to chief curry on november th and---- mr. clardy. and on that also. it was approximately : instead of : . mr. hubert. two corrections here. mr. clardy. yes, sir; two corrections on that. mr. hubert. and in the second paragraph of that letter where you name the time as a.m.---- mr. clardy. approximately; yes. mr. hubert. as the time at which lieutenant smart advised you and other officers to report to the jail office. you now say the time should have been what? mr. clardy. should have been a.m. mr. hubert. should have been a.m. do you have another time correction to make? mr. clardy. time on the last paragraph there was the time that we brought the prisoner out, mr. ruby, to captain fritz' office. mr. hubert. it reads now as " : p.m."? mr. clardy. it reads : . it should have been approximately : p.m. mr. hubert. should have been : instead of : . both of those corrections being as to clardy exhibit no. . did i understand that you might have a correction as to clardy exhibit no. ? mr. clardy. clardy exhibit no. . this. the second paragraph should have been approximately a.m., instead of a.m. mr. hubert. now, your best recollection is that the time that lieutenant smart advised you and other officers to go to the city jail office was o'clock rather than o'clock? mr. clardy. yes, sir. mr. hubert. have you anything you can tell us that would explain that error in time that you made? mr. clardy. no, sir; i don't. mr. hubert. you see, the point i am making is, that on november , you stated a.m., apparently in your letter. then--well, prior to that, on november , when you were interviewed by the fbi you told them at o'clock, and do you think that it is simply a mistake in time, or---- mr. clardy. well, it is a mistake in time on me--on the--on my first report i was under the impression that i told them a.m., which--now, whether i did or not, i don't know, sir, on my first interview. mr. hubert. let me call your attention to the fact that on document , which is the interview on december , you also mentioned a.m., apparently. all i am trying to do, detective clardy, is to find out why it is that you think it is o'clock now, whereas before on three separate occasions you thought it was . mr. clardy. sir, i thought i told the agent that i talked to that it was possibly closer to than it was to , when i talked to him. to be--just preactly [sic] what time i went down there, i am just judging. mr. hubert. in any case, your present recollection is definitely---- mr. clardy. that it would have been closer to than it was to . mr. hubert. all right. mr. clardy. i am definitely sure in my own mind that it was sometime after : . mr. hubert. is there anything that causes you to fix that precisely? mr. clardy. after just thinking, and all the other officers up in the bureau sure that it was closer to than it was to , i don't know whether i looked at my watch or whether--on a previous deal, or where i got the o'clock in my mind. mr. hubert. well, it is apparent then that you did have o'clock in your mind until when speaking to others you became convinced that you must be wrong and the o'clock is closer to it, is that correct? mr. clardy. yes, sir; i am sure it was that. i wasn't any--wasn't in the basement more than minutes. mr. hubert. did anyone speak to you and ask you to correct your statement from o'clock to o'clock? mr. clardy. no, sir. mr. hubert. you are doing that on your own volition? mr. clardy. yes, sir. mr. hubert. it is because you have become convinced that you are wrong? mr. clardy. i was wrong on the time, sir. mr. hubert. you were wrong? mr. clardy. that o'clock is definitely wrong on time. mr. hubert. and you are, right now telling us that you are quite certain that it was? mr. clardy. that it was closer to o'clock than it was to . mr. hubert. that it was closer to than . and that the previous statement about o'clock is simply wrong? mr. clardy. simply wrong; yes, sir. mr. hubert. no one has asked you to change? mr. clardy. no, sir. that wrong time was my fault, and nobody else's. mr. hubert. did anyone speak to you about the wrong time? mr. clardy. no, sir. mr. hubert. haven't done so to this time? mr. clardy. no, sir. mr. hubert. now, i understand that you were off duty on november ? mr. clardy. yes, sir. mr. hubert. and that you did not participate in reference to the investigation concerning the president's death on november ? mr. clardy. no, sir. mr. hubert. do you know jack ruby? mr. clardy. yes, sir. mr. hubert. how long had you known him, and in what way? mr. clardy. i had known him approximately in the neighborhood of or years. mr. hubert. in what way? how did you come in contact with him? mr. clardy. to the best of my recollection i met him when i went into his place of business that he owned on south ervay in connection with work, when i was working as a patrolman. i say i met him. i didn't meet him at that time. i knew him, knew who he was. i--first time i was ever introduced to him, shook hands with him, was at--after i went into criminal investigation. possibly in the early part of . i was looking for someone in connection with an auto theft in the vicinity of one of the places that he owned and he had an interest in the vegas club. i'm not sure who i was with, or who introduced---- mr. hubert. could you speak a little louder, please? mr. clardy. i am not sure who i was with, or who introduced me to him at that time. then approximately--maybe or months before this come up he stopped me downtown one day and started telling me about a traffic ticket he got. other than that, i had seen him at a distance and had spoke to him. i had seen him quite frequently when i was working late nights where the b and b club is, that is on oak lawn, close to lemmon. there is one place of business between the vegas club and the b and b, and we would go in there quite frequently when we were working late nights, and i have seen him in there on several occasions. mr. hubert. was your acquaintance with him such that you would recognize him immediately upon seeing him? mr. clardy. yes, sir. mr. hubert. would you recognize him in that way, whether he had a hat on, or a hat off? mr. clardy. i know the man well enough if i caught a glimpse of him i should recognize him; yes, sir. mr. hubert. all right. now, i am going to mark a chart of the basement area of the dallas police department, as follows, to wit: "dallas, texas, march , , exhibit . deposition of b. s. clardy," under which i am signing my name. for the purposes of identification, however, before i move to that, i want to ask you concerning documents , , and , previously identified, which i now hand you again. mr. clardy. yes, sir. mr. hubert. ask you if there are any other corrections you wish to make---- mr. clardy. no, sir. mr. hubert. with reference to the documents? mr. clardy. no, sir. mr. hubert. does the information contained in those documents represent the truth, so far as you know? mr. clardy. yes, sir; i do. mr. hubert. any modifications or changes or deletions that you would like to make? mr. clardy. i don't believe there is, sir. mr. hubert. anything omitted, that you know of? mr. clardy. sir, the only thing that is not in there that i know anything about is possibly some of these people that come in and talk to him after we took him upstairs, which nobody that made any of these investigations asked me about. mr. hubert. all right. i will get to that later, but with the exception of these omissions that you just mentioned, and to which i will come back at a later time, these documents represent the truth? there is no deletion and nothing more to add other than that other matter we have been talking about? mr. clardy. yes, sir. mr. hubert. i'll ask you to put your name under my signature where it appears, and your initials under my initials where they appear on each of the documents. right there. mr. clardy. right under here? mr. hubert. yes. just--now, we'll be using this chart later on, which has been marked , and i have signed it, and i will ask you, for the purposes of identification, to put your signature under mine on that one, too. now, these documents have been corrected, i understand, that it was simply closer to o'clock than to that you received---- mr. clardy. closer to than . mr. hubert. i beg your pardon. closer to than to when you received certain instructions from lieutenant smart, is that correct? mr. clardy. yes, sir. mr. hubert. were these instructions the first connection that you had with the movement of oswald? mr. clardy. we had been told earlier that morning, approximately--come on duty at o'clock, and was--and was told to stay in the office. now, that---- mr. hubert. in other words, your normal tour began at , but you were told to stay in the office? mr. clardy. was told to stay in the office, that we would have to move the prisoner. mr. hubert. who told you that? mr. clardy. lieutenant smart. mr. hubert. did he tell you anything about how the prisoner was going to be moved, or at what time? mr. clardy. i was under the impression that he didn't know what time or how, hisself, at the time. mr. hubert. what caused you to form that impression? mr. clardy. i think we went to get a cup of coffee, and i asked him, and he said, "i don't know." mr. hubert. in other words, the impression that he didn't know what the plans were, actually came from the statement that he himself actually told you to the effect that he didn't know? mr. clardy. yes, sir. mr. hubert. all right, then what happened after? mr. clardy. sometime shortly before , they told us to report to the basement. mr. hubert. smart did? mr. clardy. lieutenant smart. mr. hubert. lieutenant smart. mr. clardy. lieutenant smart, myself, and detective mcmillon, detective archer and detective watson, and detective dawson out of our bureau. mr. hubert. you moved as a group? mr. clardy. uh-huh, all down on the same elevator, and there was some other detectives from the juvenile bureau, i am sure, was on the same elevator. detective lowery, detective "blackie" harrison, and possibly some others. those, i'm sure. mr. hubert. what instructions were given to you? mr. clardy. went to the basement. lieutenant smart---- mr. hubert. speak a little louder. mr. clardy. lieutenant smart is the one, the only one who had any orders as to what he wanted us to do. said, "line up along the wall here on each side." and help keep the people back out of the way. mr. hubert. did you do that? mr. clardy. well, i tried to, sir. don't look like we done much good. mr. hubert. i did not mean that to be facetious. i was simply following the line of thought. then you followed his instructions to line the---- mr. clardy. yes, sir. mr. hubert. now, i want you to take a look at this mockup here and show us where you stood, if you did stay in one place, from the time that you got down in the basement area until the shot was fired. mr. clardy. let me get lined out here. mr. hubert. all right. mr. clardy. i was on this corner to--just to the right of it, most of the time. mr. hubert. let's see. that would be here, isn't it? [indicating.] mr. clardy. yes, sir. mr. hubert. now, you have marked--you have indicated on the mockup here a position which i am now marking by a circle. mr. clardy. i was just down from the corner. mr. hubert. this way? mr. clardy. yes. mr. hubert. now, i'll---- mr. clardy. in other words, i was close enough to the corner that i could see around both ways. one occasion, i went and talked to detective mcmillon. mr. hubert. in other words, you took this position, and went over there and came back, and this is where you were at the time of the shooting? mr. clardy. at the actual shooting, i had moved approximately steps to my right. as they backed this car out, apparently, some reporters tried to come across here [indicating]. and i had stepped up that way, not over--not that far up, sir. i only took or steps. i would say maybe probably as far as from me to you. i had stepped to my right. mr. hubert. all right, now, i have marked on exhibit , as a result of what you have stated while looking at the mockup, positions concerning you. one of which i have marked, encircled, "position of b. s. clardy prior to shooting," and second one, which is, you say, is approximately feet further towards the commerce street entrance. mr. clardy. yes, sir. mr. hubert. which was your position at the time of the shot? mr. clardy. at no time---- mr. hubert. is that correct? mr. clardy. yes, sir; might add something a little further, that at no time other than when i walked across to detective mcmillon do i recall being over feet from that corner in any direction. mr. hubert. when did you first get to that corner, approximately? mr. clardy. that would have been approximately o'clock, maybe : . it would have been pretty close. mr. hubert. so, that from the--from between : and o'clock you stayed in the position which is marked on exhibit , that being the position of b. s. clardy prior to the shooting. you stayed in that position all--within feet of it the whole--during the whole time until oswald was shot, except on one occasion when you said you went over to talk to detective mcmillon? mr. clardy. that's right. mr. hubert. how far did you move, and in what direction did you go? mr. clardy. certainly--well, sir; he was across the aisle on the other side. mr. hubert. now, would you mark on the map approximately the position of mcmillon when you walked over to him? mr. clardy. approximately--i walked over to him approximately in here [indicating]. mr. hubert. i am marking a circle, now, and i am putting on there, "position of mcmillon when clardy walked over," right? mr. clardy. yes, sir. mr. hubert. then, did you go back to your original position? mr. clardy. yes, sir. mr. hubert. i understand you to say that you stayed there except at the moment of the shooting you were about feet in the direction of commerce street from that original basic position? mr. clardy. yes, sir. mr. hubert. can you tell us why you moved feet towards commerce street, as you say you did? mr. clardy. the best of my recollection, as they backed the car out, that there was some of the press tried to come in front of the car, and i had to step to my right to watch them, and i stepped to my right and captain fritz had come into my view and stepped down to the right and turned slightly to my right, and approximately at that time, i hadn't seen oswald myself, but approximately at the time i stepped to my right i saw a blur of fast movement and i tried to turn, and heard the shot. mr. hubert. did you recognize ruby then? mr. clardy. i had not seen him to recognize him; no, sir. just all--i was turned, moved to the right, and all i could see was a fast blur of movement. mr. hubert. at any time during this time that you were standing in your original position as marked on the map, or at any time when you went over to see mcmillon, or at any time for that matter, whatsoever, did you see jack ruby in the crowd? mr. clardy. no, sir; i did not; and approximately or minutes before the shooting i had looked over the crowd in the basement. why, i don't know. mr. hubert. you did, in fact, look over there? mr. clardy. i had looked up to the right. lieutenant smart, and--i think--i am not for sure--chief batchelor was with him at the armored truck, and i did look on over the crowd on back around. now, this could have been more than minutes before the shooting occurred. mr. hubert. were the conditions such that if ruby had been standing in that crowd you could have singled him out and seen him? mr. clardy. as many people as there was in there at the time, sir, he could have very easily been behind somebody where i couldn't have seen him. mr. hubert. just how many people were in that area where ruby apparently was? i don't mean an accurate count. of course, you didn't count them. mr. clardy. in the area where i presume that he come from, to , on over behind the rail there was quite a few people, whether he come across the rail, whether he come down the ramp, like he told us, i don't know. mr. hubert. but, the main street ramp itself going toward main street, you figured there were about people? mr. clardy. from along here [indicating]. mr. hubert. don't say "along here," because that won't show up. mr. clardy. so that we'll understand what i mean here, take this. there was people back over in here [indicating]. mr. hubert. let's call that area "b" and you are talking about area b, and you say there was a considerable amount of people? mr. clardy. considerable amount of people back in there and from along here [indicating], across and along in here [indicating], there was---- mr. hubert. now, i am drawing a semicircle, is that approximately correct? mr. clardy. yes, sir. mr. hubert. and i am calling that "line x to y." mr. clardy. i'd say there was a minimum of people from here across here [indicating]. mr. hubert. minimum of people in the front row, or some in the back? mr. clardy. there were some in the back. mr. hubert. so, you think there were about people strung along this line that we have marked "x to y," being a curving line, in--and that there was some back of them, and up the main street ramp? mr. clardy. at the time, i didn't see anybody back up in here anywhere. mr. hubert. that is to say, you didn't see anybody---- mr. clardy. i didn't see anybody back as far as this [indicating]. mr. hubert. now, the second line which you have described, "as far as this," is--i'm going to mark that line and put it, for purposes of identification i'm marking it as a line designated by " " and " ." both numerals being encircled. i should like you to consider the area which is bounded by these two lines, "xy," and " , ," and the rail and at the wall is area a. tell me how many people you think were in area a? mr. clardy. in this area here? i---- mr. hubert. in area a, which has been designated by you as being encompassed between line "x" and " ," that being a curving line. line " ,"--point " " in a point to point " " in a circle, the rail and the wall---- mr. clardy. i'd say there was approximately four or five people up and down here [indicating]. mr. hubert. you are describing with the pencil---- mr. clardy. where the circle is down across here [indicating]. mr. hubert. you are describing with the pencil about four or five people along the rail lining of the basement side of the rail, is that correct? mr. clardy. yes, sir--no, sir; on the ramp side. mr. hubert. ramp side, parking area side? mr. clardy. yes, sir; on the ramp side. not the parking area side. on the--this being the ramp here [indicating]. mr. hubert. yes. mr. clardy. coming off from main. mr. hubert. i see what you mean, on the ramp side? mr. clardy. on the ramp side. there was a couple of uniformed officers in this area. i am not sure. mr. hubert. mcmillon was one of them, wasn't he? mr. clardy. no, sir. mr. hubert. oh, it was. you put his position, also, did you see w. j. harrison in that group? mr. clardy. w. j.? that is a detective in the juvenile bureau? mr. hubert. well, i don't know. i can't testify. i am not--well, that's all right. mr. clardy. sir, there was a detective, i am pretty sure the one you are talking about. i don't know him real well? mr. hubert. that's all right. mr. clardy. i don't know whether it was harrison that was along in here [indicating]. mr. hubert. now, would you make a circle and state where you think "blackie" harrison was at the time of the shooting? mr. clardy. time i saw detective harrison, to the best of my knowledge, he was along in there [indicating]. mr. hubert. i am marking that circle by putting "position of 'blackie' harrison at time of shooting," is that correct or at the time you saw him? mr. clardy. at the time i checked, looked over the basement, which would have been approximately minutes, or minutes before the shooting. mr. hubert. you saw him or minutes prior to the shooting. now, i'll ask you to check that again, that circle that i have designated by the legend, "position of 'blackie' harrison at the time clardy saw him or minutes prior to the shooting." is that approximately the position of mr. harrison at the time designated? mr. clardy. correct. mr. hubert. that was the time you looked over the crowd? mr. clardy. yes, sir. mr. hubert. in that area, again, can you tell us about how many people were concentrated? mr. clardy. including a couple of uniformed officers in that area, there was possibly six or seven people in that area at that time. mr. hubert. at the time you looked over at the crowd then you could see that if he stays behind this crowd of people looking up the main street ramp---- mr. clardy. yes, sir. mr. hubert. did you see anybody come down at all? mr. clardy. no, sir. mr. hubert. did you see any movement there? mr. clardy. no, sir. i saw the--i say "movement"--i saw the car that lieutenant pierce drove out that ramp, and at the time that the car approached the top of the ramp there was nobody in that area. mr. hubert. did you see the car at the top of the ramp? mr. clardy. sir, the car now as it went out--let me get this straight here. mr. hubert. don't use the map now, if you can do it without it. mr. clardy. let me get it straight here. i watched the car drive out until he drove approximately half, or maybe three-fourths of the way up, and at that time, clear back down to here [indicating] there was nobody in between. mr. hubert. all right. mr. clardy. now, as to what--watching it drive on up to the top of the ramp, no, sir. mr. hubert. you did not see it drive to the top? mr. clardy. no, sir. mr. hubert. but, roughly between half and three-fourths of the way up the ramp? were you looking in that direction after the car had passed out of the ramp? mr. clardy. no, sir. mr. hubert. well, do you think this, if anybody had come running down there you would have seen them? mr. clardy. sir, it is quite possible that somebody could have come running down there and i wouldn't have seen them. mr. hubert. you did not, in any case, see anybody? mr. clardy. i did not see anybody. now, i was facing more over in--oh, almost straight across the ramp after i looked over the---- mr. hubert. over the crowd? mr. clardy. over the crowd. mr. hubert. and you looked over the crowd prior to the time the car passed? mr. clardy. yes, sir. mr. hubert. you did not look over the crowd then--after that? mr. clardy. no. mr. hubert. do you think it is possible from your position that anybody could have come down that ramp and you would not have seen them? mr. clardy. yes, sir. mr. hubert. what makes you think that, sir? mr. clardy. well, i wasn't just in particular watching toward the direction--at the time that lieutenant pierce come out, there was a lot of these people moving around, and i was trying to keep an eye on them. at the time the other car was brought out--being brought out, there was a lot of those people over in this area in here moving around [indicating]. mr. hubert. now, i think you have already testified that as to the actual shooting itself, you just saw a movement? mr. clardy. yes, sir. mr. hubert. off to your left? mr. clardy. just a blur of movement. mr. hubert. when did you first identify ruby? mr. clardy. after he had been taken inside the jail office. mr. hubert. did you speak to him then? mr. clardy. as i went inside the main jail office they had the cuffs on him, and detective mcmillon said, "well, let's take him on upstairs." and said, "barney, take my gun." i took detective mcmillon's gun out of his holster, and at the time i did, jack ruby said, "i'm jack ruby. don't you know me? don't you know me?" said, "yes, i know you, jack," something to that effect. i am not sure, because i was sick to my stomach of what had happened, and then seeing him and wondering in my own mind how in the world a man had ever got in there. i took detective mcmillon's gun and mine and put it in one of the lockers in the jail office there, which is provided for that purpose. and along with detective mcmillon, detective "blackie" harrison, and detective archer, and there was some other detectives on the elevator with us, and i'm not sure who, and we took ruby directly to the fifth floor. mr. hubert. did he make any comments during that trip? mr. clardy. sir, i was on the--i was the last one that got to the elevator. if he was--made any comment on the way up i didn't hear him. mr. hubert. well, in your statement to the fbi agent which has been identified as no. , you stated he did mention other things. that you had heard ruby mention that he had intended to get off three shots, do you recall that? mr. clardy. that was after we got upstairs. mr. hubert. well, tell us about that. mr. clardy. i am not sure who asked him the question. i believe it was detective archer, and asked him in some way, "did you intend to"--or, "did you think you could kill the man with one shot?" and he said, "i intended to get off three shots." said, "i didn't think that i could be stopped before i got off three shots." but, that, i---- mr. hubert. did you ask ruby, or did anyone ask ruby in your presence how he had gotten into the basement? mr. clardy. i asked ruby. mr. hubert. you did by yourself? mr. clardy. i asked him myself, and i am sure there were several others who did. mr. hubert. that was when you were up on the fifth floor? mr. clardy. yes, sir; shortly after he got---- mr. hubert. shortly after? mr. clardy. yes, sir. mr. hubert. what did you ask him, and what did he reply? what did you ask him first? mr. clardy. i asked him how he got into the basement and how long he had been there. i don't know whether that is the exact words i asked him in or not, and he said that lieutenant pierce, or he called him rio pierce--i believe said rio pierce, lt. rio pierce drove out in the car and the officer stepped out from the ramp momentarily to talk to lieutenant pierce, or said something to him, and i come in behind him right on down the ramp, and says, "when i got approximately halfway down the ramp i heard somebody holler, 'hey, you,' but i don't know whether he was hollering at me or not, but i just ducked my head and kept coming." mr. hubert. did he say anything further? mr. clardy. further stated, said, "if i had planned this i couldn't have had my timing better." said, "it was one chance in a million." or something to that effect. said, "if i had planned this, i couldn't have had my timing any better." mr. hubert. did he make any statement to you as to why he had done it? mr. clardy. he said--no, somebody--i was going to ask him, and i am sure some other officer asked him as to why. he said, "somebody had to do it. you all couldn't." mr. hubert. is that the only explanation he offered? mr. clardy. well, later on we talked to him a little further and he went into this long story about how much he thought of president kennedy, and how he was remorseful. didn't want mrs. kennedy to have to come to testify on a trial, and---- mr. hubert. did he say anything here to indicate that he had any accomplices in his act? mr. clardy. no, sir. mr. hubert. did he mention to you that he had been to the western union that morning? mr. clardy. yes, sir. mr. hubert. did he say anything about where his car was? mr. clardy. yes, sir. mr. hubert. did he say anything about there being a dog in it? mr. clardy. sir, i recall that he said there was some money in the car. i--i don't recall him saying it in my presence, about the dog being in it. i do recall that he talked later about some dogs that he had that he thought so much of. mr. hubert. all right, now, a bit earlier when i asked you whether or not there were any omissions from the documents, exhibits nos. , , and , you indicated there was an omission concerning what had been said to you by some people who had talked to you. i think that is what the omission--it was something along that line. do you recall what that was now? mr. clardy. well, i think some of the stuff that we have gone into there that you have asked me as to some of the things that were said, or on down the line that i don't--i don't recall any of the fbi agents asking me who come up there and talked to him, whether they did or not, i don't know. mr. hubert. well, can you tell me what you had in mind a little while ago in the deposition when you said, "yes, this is all right, but there has been omitted something," and i told you at that time, "well, we'll come back to it a bit later," and now, i am coming back to it. i was wondering just what you had in mind when you stated that there had been an omission? mr. clardy. i don't believe it is in that report that secret service agent, mr. sorrels, came up shortly after we arrived and talked to mr. ruby. mr. hubert. i think that---- mr. clardy. whether that is in there or not---- mr. hubert. is that what you had in mind? mr. clardy. that and the fbi agent, mr. hall, then came up and talked to ruby off and on until the time that he was taken to captain fritz' office. mr. hubert. how long a period was that? mr. clardy. sir, he was up there probably within to minutes after we had taken mr. ruby upstairs. agent hall was, and he talked to mr. ruby at considerable length until he had several telephone calls. i don't know who they were from or what they was about, but, that he was called to the telephone several times while he was up there. mr. hubert. and mr. sorrels was present also? mr. clardy. mr. sorrels had left before mr. hall come up there. sorrels had talked briefly to mr. ruby. i say, "briefly," he--approximately minutes. mr. hubert. let's see if i can get the time sequence. within minutes after ruby was brought to the top--to the fifth floor, mr. hall came? mr. clardy. uh-huh. mr. hubert. and interviewed him, with some interruptions by telephone calls, for approximately what, now, an hour and a half? mr. clardy. i'd say mr. hall was up there - / hours. mr. hubert. three and a half hours. mr. clardy. yes. mr. hubert. now, in the minutes or so before mr. hall came, mr. sorrels came? mr. clardy. mr. sorrels came. mr. hubert. and stayed about minutes? mr. clardy. mr. sorrels came up just very briefly. very shortly after. mr. hubert. is that what you meant when you mentioned a little while ago that there was some omissions from your statement? mr. clardy. that is what i had reference to; yes, sir. mr. hubert. did you have reference to any other omissions? mr. clardy. no, sir. mr. hubert. then, let's put it this way. you have already stated that what is in these records, these three exhibits, , , and , are true and correct; that you did not want to modify or change anything that you had previously said. that it was some omissions, and now, do i understand you to say that the omissions that you previously spoke of is what you just testified to? mr. clardy. yes, sir. mr. hubert. are there any other omissions that you know of? mr. clardy. none that i know of. mr. hubert. so, that by taking exhibits , , and , together with your deposition today, is it fair to state that there is on record everything you know about the assassination of oswald? mr. clardy. yes, sir. mr. hubert. now, other than the interview that you had with me earlier today, have you been interviewed by any member of the commission staff? mr. clardy. no, sir. mr. hubert. now, the interview you had with me was prior to lunch, is that correct? mr. clardy. yes, sir. mr. hubert. can you state now whether there are any inconsistencies between your deposition and what we discussed at the interview to which i have just referred? mr. clardy. nothing other than the--you were referring to those previous statements? mr. hubert. no; i am referring to any inconsistencies between what you testified today and the interview we had this morning? mr. clardy. no, sir. mr. hubert. now, have you provided, or had--or did you provide in that interview this morning any material as to which you have not testified to in this deposition? mr. clardy. no, sir. mr. hubert. is there anything else at all that you would like to state that has not been said in one way or another by you? mr. clardy. sir, the only thing that i could add in any way, that i can think of, would be that the--mr. ruby appeared to be normal on that day. mr. hubert. then do you think you knew him well enough to be able to judge whether he was normal or not? mr. clardy. from his expressions or the way he talked led me to believe that the man was normal, that he knew what he was doing. mr. hubert. well, other than that observation then? mr. clardy. it wouldn't be anything that i could think of that i would add. mr. hubert. all right; if you do think of anything, i want to ask you to please feel free to come forward and state it, because quite frankly, a person will forget something, and if you do remember anything, don't hesitate to come forward with it, even though you might say to yourself, "well, i have already said there is nothing more, and now i am coming back to add something." i ask you not to feel that way, but on the other hand, to feel free to come forward, because the commission wants to know all the facts, and we want to get the facts, even though you may not recollect them until after this deposition is over. i trust you will do that? mr. clardy. yes, sir. mr. hubert. all right, then, thank you very much. i want to thank you personally and on behalf of the commission for your assistance. thank you, sir. testimony of patrick trevore dean the testimony of patrick trevore dean was taken at p.m., on march , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. burt w. griffin, assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. griffin. let me state for the record, first of all, introduce myself. as you probably heard i am burt griffin. i am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel's office of the president's commission to investigate the assassination of president kennedy. now, this commission was set up under an executive order of president johnson, dated november , , called executive order no. . also pursuant to a joint resolution of congress. we have adopted a number of rules and so forth which i will explain to you a little bit beforehand, pursuant to all these resolutions, i have been authorized by the general counsel to take the deposition of sgt. p. t. dean, who is right here. i want to tell you a little bit about the general nature of the inquiry that we are going into here. as the title of the commission would indicate, voice. i hate to interrupt, but---- mr. griffin. off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. griffin. as i say, i want to tell you a little bit about the scope of this inquiry that we are going to go into. we have been authorized to inquire into and evaluate and report to the president on all the facts relating to the assassination of president kennedy and all the facts surrounding the death of lee harvey oswald. calling you, sergeant dean, we are particularly interested in the facts that surround the death of oswald, although we don't mean to preclude any other information that you may have which may pertain to the whole area in which we are going. there has been a written request made to chief curry, by the general counsel of our commission staff, asking that you appear here some time during this particular week. now, this is not quite in full keeping with the rules that have been set forth by the commission. under the rules of the commission you are entitled to a -day written notice prior to having your deposition taken. this is going to be sworn testimony. the rules also provide, however, that you may waive this notice. i want to ask you right now, sergeant dean, if you are willing to waive the written -day notice which you can require us to give you? mr. dean. yes. i will waive it. mr. griffin. okay. now, i also want to tell you that you are entitled, under the rules of the commission to have an attorney present, if you want, and i notice you are not here today with an attorney, and i presume that is your desire, but do you? mr. dean. i will waive that, also. mr. griffin. okay. now, will you raise your right hand? do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? mr. dean. i do. mr. griffin. would you state for the record your full name? mr. dean. patrick trevore dean. mr. griffin. where do you live? mr. dean. nicholson, dallas. mr. griffin. dallas, tex.? mr. dean. yes, sir. mr. griffin. where are you employed? mr. dean. police department. mr. griffin. dallas police department? mr. dean. yes, sir. mr. griffin. how long have you been with the dallas police department? mr. dean. years. mr. griffin. and do you hold any particular rank in the department? mr. dean. i am a sergeant. mr. griffin. how long have you been a sergeant? mr. dean. years. mr. griffin. what section were you assigned to in the police department? mr. dean. patrol division. mr. griffin. that was on november , , and ? mr. dean. that's correct. mr. griffin. now, it's my understanding that you were not on duty on either november or ? mr. dean. that's correct. mr. griffin. are these your regular off duty days? mr. dean. yes, sir. mr. griffin. what time did you come to work on sunday, november ? mr. dean. at o'clock. mr. griffin. prior to the time that you came to work, had you heard anything about the proposed move of lee harvey oswald? mr. dean. no, sir; well, before i came to work, no, sir; i hadn't. mr. griffin. before you came to work did you know that oswald was going to be moved that day? mr. dean. just rumored that some time during the day that he would be moved. mr. griffin. how had you heard that? mr. dean. well, rumors in around city hall. mr. griffin. had you been around the city hall on the d? mr. dean. no, sir. mr. griffin. or the d? mr. dean. no, sir. mr. griffin. where then did you hear these rumors? mr. dean. i had just come into town just about the time the president landed on friday. i had been out to south texas deer hunting, and that day, i, of course, listened to all the news about the assassination, and also the next day, on the d, and then on the th at o'clock is when i reported for duty. mr. griffin. well, you indicated to me, though, that you had heard rumors around the police station? mr. dean. this was on the th. they had said that sometime during the day that oswald would be moved. now, who they are would be in the captain's office, around in the captain's office and in my office. mr. griffin. referring to that period before you came on duty, had you heard any rumors then? mr. dean. no, sir. mr. griffin. so when you arrived you didn't have any idea that oswald was going to be moved that day? mr. dean. repeat it? mr. griffin. when you arrived at o'clock sunday morning---- mr. dean. right. mr. griffin. you didn't have any idea oswald was going to be moved that day? mr. dean. no, sir. mr. griffin. let me ask you this: did you drive down to work that day? mr. dean. yes, sir. mr. griffin. do you recall where you parked your car? mr. dean. that being sunday, i believe i parked in the block of jackson street. mr. griffin. and do you recall how you entered the police department building? mr. dean. on the commerce street side going to the basement. not into the parking area where the incident occurred, but going into the police and courts building from commerce street. mr. griffin. when you entered at o'clock--i know it's difficult to pick out what you saw at one time and what you saw at another time. did you see any tv cables---- mr. dean. yes, sir. mr. griffin. strung through that entrance? mr. dean. yes, sir; numerous television cables and cameras. mr. griffin. try to think back as best you can and tell us, as you walked in from commerce street, you know, you come down the steps---- mr. dean. yes, sir. mr. griffin. you have to open the door? mr. dean. yes, sir. mr. griffin. and that will take you into the hallway? mr. dean. yes, sir. mr. griffin. that leads to the records room. now, as you got into that area there where you open up the door and so forth, did you see any tv cables strung through that doorway? mr. dean. yes, sir; i believe there was a lot of tv cable down at the end of the hall there, toward the jail office. mr. griffin. well now, talking now about right up at the---- mr. dean. no, sir. mr. griffin. did any tv cables come through that commerce street entrance? mr. dean. i don't recall. mr. griffin. now, what did you do when you got inside? mr. dean. i went immediately to the basement, changed clothes into my uniform and then went to the second floor, which is patrol captain's office, where i report for duty. mr. griffin. who did you report to there? mr. dean. captain talbert. mr. griffin. and did you have a conversation with talbert at that time? mr. dean. nothing specific; no. mr. griffin. did talbert give you an assignment at that time? mr. dean. no, sir. mr. griffin. did talbert talk to you in anyway about the movement of oswald at that time? mr. dean. no, sir. mr. griffin. now, did you learn somewhere after you arrived at work that someone had made a telephone call in connection with the movement of oswald, threatening oswald's life? mr. dean. yes; did i learn of a telephone call? mr. griffin. yes. mr. dean. i heard captain frazier, i believe it was, talking to captain talbert, and in my presence, and several others. i don't remember which ones, sergeants and a lieutenant or so, that i believe it was sheriff decker called during the night and asked that oswald be moved during the night sometime. mr. griffin. when did this conversation take place; how soon after you came to work? mr. dean. it was some time--probably it would have been a little before o'clock, because we meet downstairs at o'clock sharp. mr. griffin. i see. mr. dean. in the detail room. mr. griffin. so this would have been almost within a few minutes of the time that you had walked in? mr. dean. yes, sir. mr. griffin. well, were talbert and frazier--and who else was present during the conversation? mr. dean. i believe lieutenant pierce was there, myself and sergeant putnam might have been there. several other sergeants. see, this is the change time and all of his supervisors, captain frazier's and captain talbert's, the ones that are working that day, they will generally be in the office at that time. mr. griffin. off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. griffin. could you tell me where we were? (the record was here read by the reporter.) mr. griffin. do you remember any other things that were said? try to think about what these people said when this topic was brought up. mr. dean. captain frazier said something to the effect that he had called captain fritz when sheriff decker called to request the movement of oswald, and captain fritz stated that he didn't think that chief curry wanted him moved during the night, that it was--he would be moved some time this day, that day, rather than in the night. it would be this day. that's where i got it that he was to be moved on the th. mr. griffin. now, i take it that this was sort of changing of the guard at this point, and frazier was going off duty and he was sort of passing on the word to talbert? mr. dean. right. mr. griffin. what did talbert say in response to that information? mr. dean. i don't remember. the thing that i got, or impression that i got, was that they were just waiting for chief curry to say to move him, until they had proper authorization to move him, from our department rather than from the sheriff. mr. griffin. was rio pierce present at that time? mr. dean. i think that he was. mr. griffin. and it is my understanding of this situation that you had there at that time is captain talbert, lieutenant pierce and the sergeants that were all under them, kind of a general briefing? mr. dean. that's correct. mr. griffin. now, did talbert then discuss this matter with you people who were on his shift? mr. dean. not at this time. we went back downstairs to the basement to the whole detail. this is to assign the patrolmen out on their tour of duty, to brief them of the new orders, if there had been any, and generally to get the men out in the field in the squad cars. this happens at o'clock. mr. griffin. now, did you send all the men out that you normally would send out? mr. dean. yes. mr. griffin. at that time? mr. dean. yes, sir; with some few that we would use, the ones of which i can't recall. i imagine it would have been equivalent to three or four men that we would have kept in the city hall itself. mr. griffin. at that time did you have any thought of how you would assemble the necessary men to handle the transfer? mr. dean. no, sir. mr. griffin. now, after you had this initial meeting with talbert, what did you do? mr. dean. now, you are referring to after the detail? mr. griffin. after you assigned these men, and what you called the general orders? mr. dean. we went back to the second floor, back to captain talbert's office, which is the general offices for the patrol division. mr. griffin. what happened up there? mr. dean. well, i don't remember anything specific until about--i, myself, went to the third floor to familiarize myself with the happenings, about the news cameramen and just to get an idea of what was going on and who was to be present, such as that, because i had been off. this was my first day back since--in a week, in fact. i had been on a few days vacation to go hunting. mr. griffin. at the time you went up to the third floor, did you have any idea as to what your general responsibilities were going to be for the day? mr. dean. no, sir; not at that time. mr. griffin. i think i am misleading you. first of all, you have some general responsibility, standard responsibilities that you have every day? mr. dean. yes, sir. mr. griffin. what are those particular responsibilities? mr. dean. well, i am assigned to a zone area that has a group of squads that work for me, equivalent to men. mr. griffin. what zone is that? mr. dean. no. . it's in the eastern portion of dallas. mr. griffin. is that the love field area? mr. dean. no, sir; this is the--love field area is north dallas. i am in the eastern portion of dallas. mr. griffin. i see. and do you normally handle most of your duties from right within the police station? mr. dean. no, sir: i have various paperwork to do in the office at times. generally i am out in the car, answering calls with the squads, or when they need advice, supervision, well, i generally answer their calls. mr. griffin. all right. now, when you met with talbert the second time upon the second floor, did you have any idea at that time that your duties would be any different on sunday than they were on any other date? mr. dean. i assumed that i would probably confine myself to the city hall. mr. griffin. how did you happen to make that assumption? mr. dean. well, because of my seniority. it was just assumed that they would want me there. mr. griffin. now, so you went up to the third floor then? mr. dean. yes, sir. mr. griffin. and who did you talk to and who did you see up there on the third floor? mr. dean. no one in particular. i just went up to see what was going on on the third floor. this is the first time i had been to the third floor. there were numerous cameras there, lot of cables. just as you get off the elevator there was a lot of cameras. mr. griffin. what time would you estimate that you were up on the third floor? mr. dean. probably o'clock. mr. griffin. did you go up to the third floor again during the morning; that is between that time and the time that oswald was shot, did you have occasion to go back to the third floor? mr. dean. i believe i did, but for no specific purpose. mr. griffin. well, if you can separate out the different times that you might have been up there, i want to know as best you recall whether there were news people up there on the third floor when you went up this first time, around--what did you say, o'clock? mr. dean. yes. were there news people up there? mr. griffin. did you see newspaper people up there at that time? mr. dean. yes, sir. mr. griffin. do you recall whether the tv cameras were manned at that time? mr. dean. yes, sir. mr. griffin. do you recall whether these people seemed to be operating the cameras, shooting footage or did they seem to be in any sort of operation? mr. dean. they did have a monitor, small monitor set that they had the cameras on. however, they weren't broadcasting at the time. they might have been taping. i don't know. mr. griffin. did you see any other people that you thought were newsmen up there, other than those manning the cameras? mr. dean. yes, sir. pressmen. newspaper people, none of which i can recall that i knew myself. mr. griffin. what's your best estimate of the number of news people that were up there at about o'clock? mr. dean. twenty-five, possibly. mr. griffin. did this create to you what appeared to be a crowded condition? mr. dean. yes, sir. mr. griffin. now, how long did you remain up there on the third floor? mr. dean. oh, maybe or minutes. mr. griffin. and do you recall if you went into the homicide bureau? mr. dean. sometime during that morning i did step into the homicide bureau. however, i don't know who i talked to. and then there wasn't any specific reason that i did go in there. i just stepped in. the hall was very crowded. it might have been just that i was close to the homicide office and i stepped in there to get out of the crowd, because it was the least congested. there were no newsmen or pressmen in there, no cameras. mr. griffin. were you able to tell, when you were up there at about o'clock, what the general impression seemed to be as to when oswald would be moved? mr. dean. the impression i got, there was anticipation from the newsmen that--and the hopes of the newsmen, that he would probably be moved that day. mr. griffin. but as to how early in the day, did you get any idea of what they were thinking of? mr. dean. no, sir. this was at anytime. this was the impression i got, at anytime he could be moved. they were ready to start shooting, or go live television, i am sure, at anytime, at a moment's notice. mr. griffin. did they ask you any particular questions? mr. dean. none specific; no, sir. mr. griffin. did they attempt to approach you or shout things at you? mr. dean. no, sir. mr. griffin. do you remember any other bureaus you went in on the third floor? mr. dean. that was all. mr. griffin. now, where did you go from the third floor? mr. dean. went back down to the second floor. mr. griffin. and who did you see down there? mr. dean. captain talbert, lieutenant pierce. mr. griffin. do you remember any conversation you had with them? mr. dean. well, general conversation that morning was when possibly oswald might be moved. of course, i was waiting for instructions as to what to do when he was moved. i received my first instructions about o'clock. mr. griffin. who did you receive those instructions from? mr. dean. from lieutenant pierce. mr. griffin. and do you know who lieutenant pierce received his instructions from? mr. dean. no, sir. mr. griffin. what did pierce tell you? mr. dean. his instructions were for me to take a group of men and--or whatever men i needed, and thoroughly search the garage portion of the basement, to vacate it and then thoroughly search it. i---- mr. griffin. did you--go ahead. mr. dean. i took about reserve officers that were waiting in the assembly room, which is on the ground floor, the basement floor, along with sergeant putnam, officer l. e. jez, and a. r. brock, and these reserves that were in the detail room at that time, names of which i don't know. they were commanded by captain arnett. i do know this. and captain arnett assisted in the search, too. we vacated the basement of all people. mr. griffin. all right. are you talking about just the garage area or the entire basement? mr. dean. the garage area. and i assigned officer r. e. vaughn to the entrance ramp, which is entering on main street, officer r. c. nelson to the doorway coming from the police and court building and into the basement, and officer b. g. patterson the commerce street ramp, which is the exit, and i assigned one reserve officer to the southern portion of the basement, to the stairways that lead into the subbasement or the machine room. mr. griffin. now, the regular officers that you assigned were vaughn, nelson, and patterson, is that right? mr. dean. yes, sir. mr. griffin. were any of those men members of your platoon? mr. dean. yes, sir; all of them. mr. griffin. how did they happen to be in the building at that time? mr. dean. i believe they were the officers that we retained that morning to assist us for whatever might have to be done in the morning, or during the day. mr. griffin. did they normally have assignments in patrol cars some place? mr. dean. yes, sir; all of them. mr. griffin. who made the decision to keep those men in? mr. dean. i would imagine lieutenant pierce. to retain them at city hall during the day? mr. griffin. yes. mr. dean. i imagine lieutenant pierce did. mr. griffin. can i ask you directly, you did not, if i understand correctly, you did not make that decision? mr. dean. to retain them at the city hall? mr. griffin. yes, sir. mr. dean. no, sir; they were there and i utilized them for this purpose. mr. griffin. now, were there other people who were retained at city hall besides those three men in the platoon? mr. dean. there were other men that were called back in from patrol duty to supplement what men we had at the central headquarters. mr. griffin. but these were the only three men who actually stayed back and never went out to the field at all? mr. dean. yes, sir. mr. griffin. any particular reason that you can think of why those three men should have been kept there? mr. dean. no, sir; other than just assignment, routine assignment. i mean it could have been someone else as well as it was them. mr. griffin. now, you assigned reserve officers--somebody, rather---- mr. dean. to the southern portion of the basement? mr. griffin. yes, sir. mr. dean. yes, sir. mr. griffin. why did you put a guard on that door, or in that area? mr. dean. for security reasons. mr. griffin. did you have any reason to think that it would be possible to get through from the subbasement? mr. dean. well, i knew that there were doors going into the subbasement from--however, i checked them and they were locked, but still there was a possibility, since you did have doors there, or ingress from the street. mr. griffin. do you know where the ingress from the street to the subbasement is? mr. dean. yes, sir; as you enter on commerce street, going down into the basement, there is a door on the southern side of the--just before you go into the main part of the basement, that leads down. it's the porters' quarters, that leads down to the porters' quarters. mr. griffin. is there any other entrance into that subbasement? mr. dean. the elevators in the new city hall is the only ones that you can get in, is the only place, other than the ramp--we had all places covered. in fact, i assigned---- mr. griffin. no. i am talking about the subbasement now. mr. dean. the garage portion? mr. griffin. that's right. mr. dean. no, sir; there is no other place. mr. griffin. other than that door that comes into commerce street? mr. dean. yes, sir; well, there is a door that was locked, another door that's used as a--oh, i think they sometimes throw materials--it's not even an elevator. it appears to be an elevator door, if you open it up, it's a straight drop into the subbasement. mr. griffin. where is that? mr. dean. i had the maintenance man open this door for me. he did and i could see that you couldn't--or it would be hard for a man to climb up a straight wall to open these doors. you couldn't open them from the inside or the subbasement side of the door. mr. griffin. now, do you have a clear recollection as to whether or not any tv or radio or other wires came through the subbasement door up to the basement area in the garage? mr. dean. there were none coming out. from the subbasement into the garage area? mr. griffin. yes. mr. dean. there were not. mr. griffin. were there any tv or radio or other wires coming into the garage area other than through the ramps? mr. dean. no, sir. mr. griffin. now, did you give these people you stationed in the garage area, nelson and the reserve officer and--who was it that you stationed--did you station somebody by the elevators at that time? mr. dean. yes, sir; brock. mr. griffin. those three men, did you give them any specific instructions? mr. dean. yes, sir. mr. griffin. what were those instructions? mr. dean. that they were to let no one in other than--well, first that they were to let no one in until we had completely searched the basement, and then that we would notify them after we had completed the search, and then they were to let no one in except authorized pressmen, properly identified pressmen, newsmen, or policemen. mr. griffin. did you have some reason to think that those people might be coming through the entranceways that they were guarding? mr. dean. did i have some reason to think this? mr. griffin. yes. mr. dean. it was strictly security. i was doing exactly what my orders were, to keep all people out. as far as any reason other than strictly security; no. mr. griffin. what i am suggesting, really, is that you could have given them a blanket order, "don't let anybody in there"? mr. dean. that's right. mr. griffin. any reason why you didn't give them that blanket order? off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. griffin. where were we? (the record was here read by the reporter.) mr. dean. to just let no one in? mr. griffin. yes. mr. dean. well, just a moment. let me--i knew that the pressmen--i am wondering where i--it was just generally assumed to me that the pressmen would be allowed to witness the movement of oswald. mr. griffin. but from these doors, now, the men that were on the ramps, of course, you would expect an influxion of people down those ramps, but from those interior doors in the garage, i am wondering what expectation you could have that anybody would be coming through there? i am not asking this question to try to trip you up or anything like that, but i am just wondering if you thought about this? you might think of something that you had in mind that might shed some light on this. mr. dean. no, sir; the only thing, i was searching the basement and to do this i had to clear the basement to satisfy myself that there was no one in the basement, and after i was satisfied with this, then the press and the police officers could come back in the basement, if they were properly identified. mr. griffin. now, when you instructed nelson and brock and the reserve officer, were vaughn and patterson also present? mr. dean. yes, sir. mr. griffin. of course, they were guarding the ramps? mr. dean. right. patterson, vaughn were guarding the ramps, and that was my instructions to them, to keep everyone out until we had completed the search. then after we had completed the search, to let no one in other than properly identified pressmen or policemen, and to not to leave those assignments unless they were relieved by myself or sergeant putnam. mr. griffin. now, can you give us some idea of how many cars there were in the garage at that time? mr. dean. some, i would say or . mr. griffin. were these cars eventually moved out at any time? mr. dean. no, sir; some few of them were district squad cars that had come in with prisoners, and then, of course, they left, but as a mass movement to move the cars out, we didn't. mr. griffin. who checked the stairway door in the garage that leads up into the municipal building? mr. dean. the stairway door? mr. griffin. yes. mr. dean. i don't know of any door that leads up into the--the stairway? mr. griffin. there is a stairway---- mr. dean. that goes down into the subbasement? mr. griffin. well now, over where the elevators are---- mr. dean. oh. oh, yes. mr. griffin. you know what i am talking about? mr. dean. yes. mr. griffin. who checked that door? mr. dean. sergeant putnam checked it once and i checked it once and it was locked. mr. griffin. did you know at the time you checked it that even though the door was locked from the outside, it could be opened from the inside? mr. dean. [no response.] mr. griffin. let me state this again. even though the door would be locked from the garage side, that from the stairway side it would be unlocked; were you aware of that? mr. dean. i believe we asked the maintenance man about this, and i believe he locked it so as it couldn't be unlocked from either side unless they had a key. i believe sergeant putnam called this to the maintenance man's attention, and i recall being there at the time they were discussing it, and i think at that time the maintenance man locked the door so it couldn't be unlocked from either side other than with a key. mr. griffin. do you recall the name of this maintenance man? mr. dean. no, sir; i don't know. i didn't know his name to start with. however, i did know he was the maintenance man, by sight. mr. griffin. when did you get ahold of this maintenance man? mr. dean. sergeant putnam, i believe, had gotten--or had thought about this and asked him, or he had gotten in touch with him some way. mr. griffin. was this at the same time you had the men in the garage searching, or at some later time? mr. dean. this was during the search. mr. griffin. and do you know where this maintenance man was located---- mr. dean. no, sir. mr. griffin. when putnam found him? mr. dean. i don't. i do know i sent for him one time, or had an officer to go page the maintenance man to meet me, to have him unlock this door in question, that i thought--or i wanted it opened so i could see in it, to see if it was a service elevator or what. i had never seen that door opened before. mr. griffin. now, did you make any inquiries about the passenger elevators? mr. dean. coming into the garage portion? mr. griffin. yes. mr. dean. yes; they were operating at the time. i think there were two colored boys that were operating the elevators, and we told them not to come down to the basement for any reason. and we posted brock there at the elevators. mr. griffin. now, so that we understand what we are talking about, my recollection is that there is another elevator that's a service elevator also? mr. dean. yes, sir. this was the one that was operating, primarily, that morning. mr. griffin. i think we can help things out here somewhat. this is a diagram of the basement area, and i am going to mark this "dallas, tex., sergeant dean, march , , exhibit ." now, making reference, sergeant, to this particular diagram here, at the time you searched the garage, it is my understanding that what's marked on here as elevators nos. and were operable, that there were some colored boys in there, or somebody who was operating those elevators? mr. dean. no. i believe those were not in operation, nos. and . the service elevator was, i do know. there was the parking attendant, a colored boy, and he sits here [indicating]. mr. griffin. why don't you put a mark on that diagram there, make it an x? mr. dean. all right [indicating]. mr. griffin. and do you want to label that parking attendant, or whatever you think is appropriate? mr. dean. all right [indicating], this is a colored boy that usually sits here. he has a bench there he sits on until he is needed. we made him leave. mr. griffin. made him leave? mr. dean. in fact, i think he was relieved from duty that day, because i took him out of the commerce street ramp. mr. griffin. and was there somebody operating that service elevator? mr. dean. the service elevator? mr. griffin. how many people were in that service elevator? mr. dean. there was one. when i said two persons i was thinking of the elevator operator, which is also a colored boy, and the parking attendant. mr. griffin. do you want to just put an x on the service elevator, to indicate there was somebody in there? mr. dean. all right, sir [indicating]. mr. griffin. now, you want to place a mark at approximately the place that you stationed the men who were guarding the entrance to the subbasement, this reserve officer? mr. dean. oh, the subbasement. let me see--[indicating]. mr. griffin. let me explain this diagram to you. this is the basement, this dotted line here is the upstairs [indicating]. mr. dean. oh, i see. mr. griffin. this actually goes under the sidewalk here [indicating]. mr. dean. this is where the reserve officer was [indicating]. mr. griffin. now, where did you station brock? mr. dean. put him in a position that he could see this door here and also these three elevators [indicating]. mr. griffin. now, who else did you station in the basement? mr. dean. no one--well, nelson was--let's see, nelson was here [indicating]. mr. griffin. and where did you place vaughn and where did you place patterson? mr. dean. is this the exit proper, door, here to the--[indicating]? mr. griffin. yes. this would be the top of the ramp here [indicating]. mr. dean. all right. mr. griffin. all right. now, you want to sign this down here and mark on there the time, sign it there and then in the middle of the diagram, so it doesn't confuse things here, put the--well, sign it over under here. if we put time in here, somebody may think that was the time that you made the mark on here. then if you would label this status of basement, whenever it was that--[indicating]. mr. dean. during the search? mr. griffin. yes. mr. dean. [indicating]. mr. griffin. okay. very good. now, you have marked on here approximately : to : a.m. i am not going to ask you what you found there and so forth, because you have made a full statement on it. we know, for example, you found a rifle in the back of one of the police cars? mr. dean. yes, sir. mr. griffin. now, after the search was completed, where did you go? mr. dean. the pressmen were allowed to come back in. mr. griffin. let me ask you this, where had they been removed to? mr. dean. into the police court building, or the basement. mr. griffin. by the records room? mr. dean. yes, sir. mr. griffin. i see. and they were allowed back in the basement? mr. dean. yes, sir. mr. griffin. what is your best estimate of the number of policemen that came back into the basement? mr. dean. well, of course, it increased as the time went on, so it would be hard to---- mr. griffin. how many newspapermen did you have to clear out of the basement at : , approximately? mr. dean. oh, approximately or , maybe . mr. griffin. now, when you went down into the basement, before the search, were there any tv cameras down there? mr. dean. yes, sir; i believe there was. mr. griffin. do you want to indicate on the map here where it is that you think the tv cameras, or camera was placed? mr. dean. [indicating.] mr. griffin. do you recall if there was a tv camera at this location [indicating]? mr. dean. i believe there was. mr. griffin. now, i am referring, so that the record will reflect this, to a tv camera that's in the entranceway from the ramp, towards the jail office, and it's on the commerce street wall, along the commerce street wall. did you move that tv camera at that time? mr. dean. no, sir. moved the operators away from it. mr. griffin. now, what did you do after that, after you completed the search and let the people back into the basement? mr. dean. let me think. i believe i stayed in the basement area. mr. griffin. at the time that you completed the search, had you heard anything about the time that oswald would be moved? mr. dean. no, sir. mr. griffin. had you heard anything about the route that he would be moved by? mr. dean. at the time---- mr. griffin. that you completed the search? mr. dean. yes. about, somewhere around : , captain talbert sent me a group of regular officers that had been called in off of patrol district. [indicating.] mr. griffin. now, can i help you? mr. dean. my report [indicating]? mr. griffin. yes [indicating]. mr. dean. i didn't have in my original report, i do have in my original notes in my locker, as to some traffic assignments that i made. this was about : . these men were sent to me by captain talbert. i briefed them about here in the basement, away from everyone, to let no one know the route. this is when captain talbert advised me that the route would be to leave the commerce street side, go to the expressway, north to main [indicating]. mr. griffin. is that pearl expressway or central expressway? mr. dean. central expressway. and then west on main to the county courthouse, or the sheriff's office. mr. griffin. let me try to refresh your recollection a little bit here. up to this point had you heard anything about a proposed route that would have gone from central expressway and turned at elm street, rather than main street? mr. dean. i was thinking it was--i knew that they changed it, after i made my assignment i had to change them again, because they said they wasn't going to use it. it was either main street that they weren't going to use, they were going to commerce--however, i think you are right. i think originally my assignments were made at the intersections--not commerce, but elm, and then they changed the--they being captain talbert, and told me that they would not use elm, that they would use main street. mr. griffin. would you draw a big circle in this area where you instructed these men, to show roughly what area the men covered, and would you put an appropriate note on there as to what happened and what time? mr. dean. [indicating.] mr. griffin. about how many men did you give instructions to? mr. dean. , . mr. griffin. why don't you just put that number there? mr. dean. [indicating.] mr. griffin. now, did those men then take police vehicles and go to their appointed spots? mr. dean. yes, sir. immediately to their squad cars that had been parked outside and then--they reported into the basement to me for these assignments, they went immediately to these assignments, and these assignments were made at various intersections along the proposed route that oswald would be transferred. mr. griffin. now, was brock in the basement at the time that you gave that assignment? mr. dean. yes, sir. however, he was still at the elevators then. mr. griffin. how about patterson and vaughn? mr. dean. they were at their stations. mr. griffin. after you made those assignments, what did you do? mr. dean. i moved back to the area, when you come out of the jail office, to the ramp, and this is when lieutenant pierce came up to me and appeared to be in a hurry--well now, the armored car had already backed into the ramp. mr. griffin. all right. how much before---- mr. dean. this armored car had backed into the ramp as i was standing here [indicating]. mr. griffin. let's place these times a little bit. how long was it between the time that you instructed these to men to go on their posts and the time that the armored car arrived? mr. dean. oh, minutes. mr. griffin. why don't put down here where you made that note, about minutes before armored car arrived? mr. dean. [indicating.] mr. griffin. okay. now, how much time elapsed between the time you made assignment to these men and the time that you searched the basement? mr. dean. fifteen or twenty minutes. mr. griffin. right. why don't you put down here then or minutes before assignment to elm street? mr. dean. elm street? mr. griffin. yes. mr. dean. [indicating.] mr. griffin. all right. now, i understand about the time that the armored car arrived, or was it shortly after the armored car arrived, you had a conversation with lieutenant pierce? mr. dean. yes, sir. mr. griffin. how much after the armored car arrived would you say that conversation occurred? mr. dean. five minutes after the armored car arrived. mr. griffin. we don't need to mark that. and this conversation with lieutenant pierce occurred in the entranceway, off the main street ramp toward the jail office? mr. dean. right. mr. griffin. was anybody else there when you talked with pierce? mr. dean. there were several people around, but they didn't hear his instructions to me, i am sure. mr. griffin. all right. what did pierce tell you? mr. dean. he said for me to go to the armored car, to the rear of the armored car, and to get him two men to go with him, and he said, "now." sergeant putnam was maybe or feet from me, and i instructed him to get an unassigned man immediately and to go with lieutenant pierce, and lieutenant pierce, by this time, of course, he was going to get his car, or walking over to his car. sergeant putnam got--told sergeant maxey to go with him, and those three got into lieutenant pierce's car with lieutenant pierce driving, and i went to the rear of the armored car that had backed in, which was some, i guess feet, to feet from where the shooting was. this armored car backed down, and i imagine it would probably be around to feet. as soon as i got to the armored car i turned around and looked back, and this is when i saw lieutenant pierce in this plain black car trying to get past the newsmen and to go out the wrong way. mr. griffin. up the main street ramp? mr. dean. right. mr. griffin. now, is my understanding correct that from the time that you placed your guards in the basement and then began the search, until pierce's car drove up the ramp, you did not leave the basement area? mr. dean. that's right. mr. griffin. now, as you saw pierce's car go out of the--move out of the garage area, who was in that car? mr. dean. sergeant maxey and sergeant putnam, lieutenant pierce was driving it. i do recall that sergeant putnam had to get out of the car and tell some people to move out of the way so they could drive out. mr. griffin. now, where did he get out of the car? mr. dean. just as they were turning from the basement to go up the ramp, about this location [indicating]. mr. griffin. did you see him get back in the car? mr. dean. yes, sir. mr. griffin. where did you see him get back in the car? mr. dean. same place. mr. griffin. so when he drove through this next line of newsmen, when the car went through this next line of newsmen, is it your recollection that sergeant putnam was back in the car, or did he follow the car up ahead and clear these others? mr. dean. i believe he walked on up for a few steps, not too far, and then when he did see that the way was clear he got into the car then, but he did get out of the car to clear the way for the car to move out of the basement. mr. griffin. i see. now, did you watch him go out of the ramp up there? mr. dean. yes, sir. mr. griffin. and did you see what he did when he got to the top of the ramp? mr. dean. i couldn't see to the top of the ramp. it's obscured, from where i was. i was halfway up this ramp and i couldn't see to the top of the ramp. mr. griffin. did you watch him, though, go up until you lost sight of him? mr. dean. yes, sir. mr. griffin. now, during the period that you were looking toward putnam's car, were you able to see the people behind the car in this particular--across the main street ramp? mr. dean. just as a group. i mean as a group of people. mr. griffin. did you see anybody in that group that you recognized? mr. dean. no, sir. mr. griffin. did you see any police officers that you recognized there, other than putnam? mr. dean. none that i paid any attention to. i mean if i had noticed them i could have probably seen someone that i recognized. mr. griffin. yes. now, of course, you have known jack ruby for or years? mr. dean. i have known jack ruby since, i believe --the early part of or the early part of . it was the time that i came downtown from oak cliff, as a sergeant. i met him. now, the record, or your report from the fbi says that i had known him since , which is erroneous. mr. griffin. okay. we will do that at the end of the deposition, because i want to get that straightened out. mr. dean. yes, sir. mr. griffin. but you knew ruby well enough so that you would recognize him on sight? mr. dean. yes, sir. mr. griffin. and did you see ruby in that area there? mr. dean. no, sir. mr. griffin. now, after you lost sight of pierce's car going up the ramp, what did you do? mr. dean. well, my attention was focused to this point, because this was a tense time, and i was, of course, watching the exit here from the jail office [indicating]. mr. griffin. now, did you watch how the security developed along in here; what the officers did to maintain security along here [indicating]? mr. dean. i knew that they had just lined up. however, i didn't pay any attention particularly to this at the time. i knew that oswald was, in all probability, going to be brought out pretty soon. mr. griffin. as you looked toward the main street ramp and saw the newsmen re-form along there, can you recall how deep this line of newsmen was? do you understand what i mean by how deep? mr. dean. you mean lengthwise? mr. griffin. yes. mr. dean. it was probably going to about somewhere along here. they were all trying to be within view of the----[indicating]. mr. griffin. was there just a single line along there or were there four of five or six different lines; you know, four or five behind each other, or how many? mr. dean. i know there was a double line and possibly some were standing behind them. mr. griffin. now, had you given any instructions prior to the time that rio pierce's car went up the ramp, to any men as to how to maintain security along this line of newsmen? mr. dean. no, sir; i hadn't. the majority of those, i think, were detectives or plainclothesmen. mr. griffin. do you know if anybody had responsibility for giving instructions to that group? mr. dean. to my knowledge, i don't know of anyone. i am sure that they did, but i don't know who did. mr. griffin. did you receive instructions from anybody concerning how to maintain security along the path from the jail office door to the car that oswald would be loaded into? mr. dean. no, sir; at one time i know that there were several cameras set up in this area, and chief batchelor told them that they would have to leave this area and move to the basement area. i was present during chief batchelor's--or when he told these tv men to move out of that area, inside the jail office, that---- mr. griffin. tv cameras inside the jail office? mr. dean. yes, sir; and lights set up. this was, i believe, before the search or shortly after the search. i am thinking it was shortly after the search, that these men were told to move out of this area and move their cameras and equipment out into the garage portion of the basement. mr. griffin. now, sergeant, did there come a time when you learned that the route was being changed? mr. dean. the route to the sheriff's office? mr. griffin. yes. mr. dean. this was--i believe i received both of those instructions when i assigned those men. i had already assigned--well, i do know that i had already assigned all these men along this traffic route, and then it had been changed. captain talbert said, "no; they are not going to use main street--or elm street. they are going to use main," i believe. mr. griffin. did you learn this after you had already sent the men out? mr. dean. no, sir. mr. griffin. well, is there anything that makes you sure about that? mr. dean. because i reassigned them, at the same time i briefed them, and made these other assignments. i learned that the route had been changed, and i reassigned them, at the same time. mr. griffin. now, did you assign a man to the corner of main and pearl expressway? mr. dean. yes; i know that i did, but i can't recall who it was. i have that information in my locker, my original assignments. mr. griffin. i take it you have a lot of notes in your locker, or you have some notes? mr. dean. yes, sir; at a later time i will bring those to you, if you like. mr. griffin. i would very much appreciate it. do you want to make a note of that? if you send them over to us tomorrow, i would appreciate that very much. mr. dean. tomorrow? mr. griffin. yes; and we don't need the originals if you want to---- mr. dean. no; you can have them. mr. griffin. all right. now, what did you do after you saw pierce's car go up the ramp? mr. dean. i stood at the rear of the armored car and watched--my attention was focused to this point here, to the exit from the jail office, or the corridor here. i noticed that these two plain cars had pulled up behind, or in my same direction, and i assumed that these two cars would be loaded with officers that would follow the armored car. however, they hadn't loaded. they were pulling into position here and had gotten into position when all the confusion started [indicating]. mr. griffin. let me interrupt your train of thought here. in looking at this map, it occurs to me that we don't have nelson marked on this map [indicating]. mr. dean. nelson is here [indicating]. mr. griffin. oh, okay; now, do you know if brock was pulled off this station at anytime prior to the shooting of oswald? mr. dean. no, sir; he was told to stay there. mr. griffin. but you don't know of your own knowledge---- mr. dean. no, sir. mr. griffin. whether he was there at that time? mr. dean. no, sir. mr. griffin. all right. now, as the two police cars moved into position on the commerce street ramp behind the armored car, what happened, what did you see happen and what did you do? mr. dean. i heard someone say, "here he comes, they are bringing him out." of course, you could hear voices, loud voices, or excitement, and then i saw a man just dart in--this was during all the confusion, before the shooting, but i do recall seeing a man dart out. i couldn't tell who he was. it was that fast [witness snaps fingers]. mr. griffin. where did he seem to dart from? mr. dean. from the rail over here. the side--just dart out from a group of people that were standing against the rail facing the exit [indicating]. mr. griffin. all right. can you mark there with an "x" and a circle around it, approximately where he was and how close he was to this railing? do you think he was right on the railing or [indicating]---- mr. dean. well, the railing--you have a curb there and then i don't recall how wide that curb is, but the railing, you can lean against standing on the ramp itself [indicating]. mr. griffin. yes; how far would you say he was from that railing? mr. dean. i would say he was up against the railing. mr. griffin. now, is that the man that shot oswald? mr. dean. yes, sir. mr. griffin. why don't you put a circle and an "x" down there and write ruby? mr. dean. [indicating.] mr. griffin. now, where was "blackie" harrison standing? mr. dean. i didn't recognize--or didn't notice "blackie" harrison. i do recall now and i know where he was standing, next to him, from films i have seen since then. however, i didn't even know he was there. mr. griffin. now, as i understand from your statement, and interrupt me if i am incorrect, when you saw ruby shoot oswald, you moved toward the struggle and then ruby was taken into the jail office, and did you follow them on in? mr. dean. yes, sir. i ran immediately, jumped over these cars, or one of them, jumped over the hood of it, over the top of it, and they were dragging--ruby and several detectives that were subduing him were about at the door, or [indicating]---- mr. griffin. i had just as soon not have you mark at this point. mr. dean. okay. mr. griffin. i understand why you want to, but---- mr. dean. all right. mr. griffin. did you hear, between the time that you saw ruby move toward oswald and the time that you reached him, did you hear anything said? mr. dean. no, sir. mr. griffin. now, what did you do when you reached ruby? mr. dean. well, i ran to assist, whatever i could do, or assist the officers, not knowing exactly what had happened--or i knew that there had been a shooting. however, they had enough men that were subduing him, and i asked the question, when they had him on the floor inside the jail office, "who in the world is it?" and---- mr. griffin. couldn't you tell by looking at him? mr. dean. no; at the time i couldn't see him because there were so many over him. and they were--well, his face was hidden from me by the amount of officers that were around him. i said, "who in the world is it?" and evidently i was talking loud over all the other voices, and evidently ruby heard me and said, "i am jack ruby. you all know me." mr. griffin. and how long did you remain with jack ruby there in the jail office? mr. dean. i immediately walked around to where oswald was laying. mr. griffin. and how long did you remain there where oswald was? mr. dean. oh, maybe--less than a minute. i saw that the doctor--there was an emergency doctor working on him. mr. griffin. where did you go from there? mr. dean. i went back out to the basement, out to where the shooting happened. mr. griffin. what did you do out there? mr. dean. i was trying to keep all the people in. i heard captain talbert say, "don't let anyone out." and i was echoing his instructions to the men on the ramp, to not let anyone in or out, no one. mr. griffin. now, did there come a time while you were down there in the basement that you were interviewed by tv men? mr. dean. yes, sir; that was after i had--just some few minutes, i don't know, that several newsmen had--or did interview me, yes. mr. griffin. do you remember which tv station that was? mr. dean. tom pettit is with nbc, i believe. i did know one of the local men, bob huffaker. he is with krld-tv. but there were several. i don't know---- mr. griffin. all right. now, there was also a time, undoubtedly, that you were interviewed, or somebody quoted you in the newspapers, and there was a great to-do about this, as i understand, in the police department. somebody claimed---- mr. dean. misquoted me, yes, sir. mr. griffin. now, was that at this particular tv interview; was that when you made the statement? mr. dean. the newspaper article that appeared, the news or the writer of that story told me that he wrote that story from my initial interview that was given shortly after the shooting, yes. mr. griffin. now, do you recall talking with that man down there? mr. dean. the man that wrote the---- mr. griffin. yes. mr. dean. no, sir. i wouldn't know him by sight now. mr. griffin. do you recall ever seeing that man? mr. dean. no, sir. mr. griffin. now, after you had this tv interview, what did you do? mr. dean. i went to the third floor. mr. griffin. and where did you go on the third floor? mr. dean. just as i got off of the elevator chief curry approached me, along with another man. he introduced him very quickly as forrest v. sorrels, with the secret service, or head of the secret service here in dallas, gave me his keys to the outer door that has--or access to the jail elevator, told me to take mr. sorrels to the fifth floor to talk to ruby. mr. griffin. now, between the time that you left the jail office---- mr. dean. all right. mr. griffin. and you went into the basement area and had the tv interview and then went up to the third floor, did you talk with any of the police officers who had been down there in the basement area? mr. dean. no, sir. mr. griffin. while you were in the jail office, before you came out, did you talk to any of the officers who were there, who were in the jail office; did you talk with them? mr. dean. no, sir. mr. griffin. now, why were you going up to the third floor? mr. dean. i was going to captain fritz' office. mr. griffin. and what were you going to do up there? mr. dean. i was just going to see if jack ruby was in captain fritz' office, or whether he was taken immediately to the jail. i didn't know where he was taken to. mr. griffin. why did you want to go up to see jack ruby? mr. dean. to see if they were--this was in my mind, to see if they were going to go ahead and identify him, because i knew other pressmen and other people were going to be asking me, since i had this interview, and see if--did he want me to go ahead and identify him or do what i did in the initial interview, say that this information will have to come from captain fritz' office. it really wasn't significant. i knew that i would be talked to at later times all during the day and pressed for the identity of this man, and i wanted to ask them there did they want us to release it or want them to keep it and release it themselves. mr. griffin. you had already told the newsmen? mr. dean. yes, sir. i had already told the newsmen this. i didn't identify the man. mr. griffin. you had already told the newsmen that the man who shot oswald was ruby? mr. dean. no, sir. i didn't. i didn't identify the man. they asked me did i recognize this man. i said "yes." and they asked me could i tell them who he was, and i said i had rather not, and i did not identify him as ruby. i identified him as a businessman in the city of dallas, but i did tell them that i recognized the man by sight. mr. griffin. now, when you got up on the third floor, where did you see chief curry? mr. dean. just as i got off of the elevator. mr. griffin. and did you ask him to discuss this problem with you? mr. dean. no, sir. he immediately introduced--said, "this is mr. forrest v. sorrels, head of the secret service in dallas, and take my keys and take him to the fifth floor to interview ruby." mr. griffin. you got up to the fifth floor, who was with ruby? mr. dean. detective archer, d. r. archer, detective t. d. mcmillon and detective b. s. clardy is the three, and that's the only three i can recall standing there. i think that was all that was with him. mr. griffin. was there a jailer there? mr. dean. not standing there necessarily by him. there, of course, are jailers all over the floor, and you know, there were--not particularly around him though. the only ones i can recall standing close to ruby was those three detectives. mr. griffin. what state of dress or undress was ruby in at that time? mr. dean. he was stripped to his shorts. mr. griffin. now, what did you do when you got up there? mr. dean. i walked immediately to him. i heard--well, immediately i told him, i said, "this is mr. forrest v. sorrels"--started the introduction, and ruby stopped me and he said, "i know who he is. he is with the fbi." mr. sorrels then informed him. he said, "no. i am not with the fbi. i am with the secret service." and then he again told him, "i want you to know that i am not with the fbi. i am with the secret service." and so ruby said something to the effect, "well, i knew that you were working for the government." mr. griffin. do you remember ruby making any remark to sorrels to the effect, "are you with the newspapermen"? mr. dean. yes, sir. i recall most all of that conversation. mr. griffin. tell us what that conversation was. mr. dean. after sorrels had identified himself as a secret service man, he said, "i want to ask you some questions." and then ruby asked him, "is this for the magazines or press?" and he said, "no. it's for my information, as an agent." and he said, "okay. i will answer all your questions." mr. griffin. do you remember any discussion with him, anything sorrels said about his acquaintanceship in the jewish community? mr. dean. sorrels asked him first, i believe---- mr. griffin. no. i am not making myself clear. i am sorry. did sorrels say anything to ruby about sorrels' acquaintanceship among the jewish merchants, that you recall? mr. dean. no. i don't--seems like he said something, that he had--that he knew some jewish--i don't recall exactly what, but relative to what you are asking, he did say something about he was acquainted with some person that was a jew, something to that effect. mr. griffin. are you acquainted with the name of a guy named honest joe? mr. dean. right. yes, sir. mr. griffin. tell us what you remember about that. mr. dean. well, he said, "well, i know honest joe or"--in other words, the only thing that i got out of that was that he knew honest joe. this wasn't relative to what i wanted to find out from ruby, and i just disregarded this from my mind. mr. griffin. now, did this take place inside the jail cell? mr. dean. no, sir. he was in the hallway or the corridor outside a jail cell. he hadn't been placed in a cell. mr. griffin. and were archer, clardy, and mcmillon around during this conversation? mr. dean. yes, sir. i think they stood there. mr. griffin. and how long would you say that sorrels talked with ruby? mr. dean. oh, minutes. mr. griffin. now, do you remember anything that sorrels learned from ruby? mr. dean. yes, sir. mr. griffin. can you tell us what that was? mr. dean. yes. he asked him what possessed him to do it. of course, i have testified to all this in court. and he said that he was--had been despondent over the assassination of the president, also officer tippit, and that he was a very emotional man, and that out of grief for both these people, was one of the motivations, and that he couldn't see any reason for a long and lengthy trial, even though he believed in due process of law. mr. griffin. did he talk with sorrels at all at that time about how he got into the basement? mr. dean. no, sir. i asked him--sorrels didn't ask any questions relative to that. i did. mr. griffin. how long after sorrels finished talking with ruby did you ask that question? mr. dean. immediately. after mr. sorrels said, "okay. thank you." and i don't recall whether mr. sorrels stayed there or whether he walked off. mr. griffin. who else was present when you asked ruby that question? mr. dean. i think mcmillon and them were still there. i just really didn't--i knew that i wasn't by myself with him. i knew that there was someone there and i believe it was mcmillon and archer that had stayed there. i am not sure. mr. griffin. what else did you talk with ruby about, after sorrels finished talking to him? mr. dean. after sorrels finished, i said, "ruby, i want to ask you a couple of questions myself." and he said, "all right." i said, "how did you get in the basement?" and he said, "i walked in the main street ramp." and he told me, he said, "i have just been to the western union to mail a money order to fort worth." and he said, "i walked from the western union to the ramp." and he said, "i saw sam pierce--" and he referred to him as sam pierce--"drive out of the basement. at that time, at the time the car drove out is when i walked in." mr. griffin. is there a sam pierce on the force? mr. dean. yes, sir. he is a lieutenant. he is here tonight. mr. griffin. his name is also rio pierce? mr. dean. lt. rio s. pierce, yes, sir. mr. griffin. does he go by the name sam? mr. dean. yes, sir. mr. griffin. does he also go by the name rio? mr. dean. yes, sir. mr. griffin. is one used---- mr. dean. just as much as the other. depends on who met him under which name. mr. griffin. all right. now, what else did he talk to you about at that particular time? mr. dean. after he answered that question, i said, "how long had you been in the basement when oswald came into your view?" and he said, "i just walked in. i just walked to the bottom of the ramp when he came out." mr. griffin. what else did you talk to him about at that time? mr. dean. that's all. i heard all of sorrels' questions and i heard all of ruby's answers. mr. griffin. now, as far as the questioning of sorrels is concerned, did you testify to that at the ruby trial? mr. dean. yes, sir. mr. griffin. now, after you finished this conversation with ruby about how he got down into the basement, what did you do? mr. dean. caught the elevator back down to the basement and got my gun that had been taken there by a patrolman. if i am not mistaken, i rode down on the same elevator with mr. sorrels, and then i went back up to the third floor to chief curry's office and took him his keys that he had given me. mr. griffin. what were the keys to? mr. dean. they were--well, it was a keyring with a lot of keys on it, but he had given me these to gain entrance to the door that's always locked on the third floor of the jail elevator. mr. griffin. and then how long did you stay down there with chief curry? mr. dean. just long enough to give him his keys. mr. griffin. where did you go after that? mr. dean. [no response.] mr. griffin. did you go back to homicide? mr. dean. no; i didn't go back to homicide. i don't remember whether i went back to the basement--i believe that i did, went back to the basement to see how things were down there. and, of course, a great number of people had left the basement, and i assume were en route or were going to the parkland hospital to check on--since the focal point had gone to parkland hospital, i assumed that's where all these people had gone. mr. griffin. did you tell chief curry what ruby had told you? mr. dean. at that time; no. mr. griffin. what did you do, now, after you went down to the first floor, the basement, you say; what did you do then? mr. dean. well, i don't remember exactly what i did. i did go to parkland hospital and i got there before oswald was pronounced dead, which i think was at : , wasn't it? somewhere around o'clock? mr. griffin. yes. mr. dean. yes; anyhow, i stayed at parkland hospital and---- mr. griffin. who did you see out at parkland hospital? mr. dean. well, i talked to lee harvey oswald's mother, and in fact, i had taken her along with some--i assumed some secret service men, i assumed they were secret service men that were with her when i started talking to her. i went in with her into view the body, her and marina oswald, to view the body of lee. mr. griffin. did somebody assign you to go out to parkland hospital? mr. dean. no, sir. mr. griffin. how did you happen to go out there? mr. dean. to check on the condition of oswald. i knew that--well, it was just reaction for me to go out there, because i knew that i would probably be needed out there. mr. griffin. did you check in with captain talbert before you went out? mr. dean. no, sir; i did check out with the dispatcher on the radio, that i was en route to parkland hospital. mr. griffin. how about lieutenant pierce, did you check out with him? mr. dean. i think when i got to parkland hospital i called him and advised him that i would be at parkland until i notified him. mr. griffin. when you got out to parkland hospital and before you saw mrs. oswald, marguerite oswald, did you talk with any police officers? mr. dean. at parkland? mr. griffin. yes. mr. dean. well, i am sure that i talked to some. nothing specific or no orders given, no assignments or anything. i was, more than anything, i was answering questions as to what happened in the basement, from everyone, even policemen and everyone else. mr. griffin. and did you tell them about the conversation you had with ruby? mr. dean. no, sir. mr. griffin. why not? mr. dean. i just didn't tell anyone about it. mr. griffin. now, where did you find marguerite oswald? mr. dean. she was waiting in a room just out of the emergency room there. mr. griffin. do you remember what secret service agents were with her at that time? mr. dean. no, sir; i don't. mr. griffin. did you wait with marguerite in that room with the secret service agents? mr. dean. no. that's--shortly after i went in to where marguerite and marina were, marguerite wanted to see the body, and they tried to explain to her that they really hadn't gotten him in shape to view yet. he just came out of the operating room, and she said, well, she wanted to see him then, and she more or less was directing her statements and demands to me, since i was the only uniformed officer there, and said that she would like to go in and see him. mr. griffin. why did you happen to go to marguerite? mr. dean. well, i was just standing outside the door there where they said he was, and someone had pointed her out, and said that's the mother and the wife. no particular reason. but i did, after she asked to go in and see him, they said--the doctor said it would be all right for them, and i did go in with them, when they went in to view the body. during the time that we were in this room where oswald's body was mrs. oswald, the mother, turned to me and said that at this time she wanted to make a statement to me in regard to the allegations against her son, that she could--something to the effect that she could prove that they were wrong, and about this time she was interrupted by one of the nurses telling me that i was wanted on the phone. so i left and didn't see---- mr. griffin. who had called you at that time? mr. dean. lieutenant pierce. mr. griffin. where was he? mr. dean. he was at central headquarters. mr. griffin. what did he have to say? mr. dean. he asked me how long i thought i was going to be there and i said, well, i was leaving now. and then i left and came back to the city hall. mr. griffin. now, when you talked to pierce on the telephone, did you tell him about your conversation with ruby? mr. dean. no, sir. mr. griffin. when you drove out to parkland hospital, did you drive out alone? mr. dean. yes, sir. mr. griffin. when you drove back, did you drive back with anybody? mr. dean. no, sir; by myself. mr. griffin. now, what did you do when you got back to central police headquarters? mr. dean. i went to our office on the second floor, the patrol captain's office. mr. griffin. and who was there? mr. dean. well, i don't recall exactly. i know this was again getting close to the change time. it was somewhere around o'clock, and the secretary told me that i had several phone calls waiting on me, and one of--well, there were some long distance calls that had seen me on television, and i didn't answer all of them. mr. griffin. any phone calls from anybody you knew? mr. dean. no; my wife had called. i mean there had just been a lot of people calling. mr. griffin. now, did you make any phone calls when you got that message that you had calls? mr. dean. no, sir; at the time, about--the only phone call that i had taken was the dispatcher called and--just about the time i walked in, and said that i had a long distance call from--oh, chicago or somewhere, and they transferred it down there, and, of course, they were asking who this man was, how did he get in, questions that newsmen--it was from some radio station. i didn't---- mr. griffin. in chicago. and did you tell them? mr. dean. no, sir. mr. griffin. then what did you do after that long distance telephone call from chicago? mr. dean. well, there was newsmen from klif came into the office, asked would i give him a short interview, which i did. mr. griffin. who were those people? mr. dean. this man, it was glen duncan. i didn't know him before. i hadn't seen him before. mr. griffin. anybody else that you remember with him? mr. dean. no, sir; he was by himself. mr. griffin. and was that a tape-recorded interview? mr. dean. yes, sir; station klif. mr. griffin. and how long did that interview last? mr. dean. gosh, i don't know. maybe or minutes. mr. griffin. did you ever get a copy of that interview from them? mr. dean. he sent me one, and it's at home somewhere. it didn't play on my recorder and i didn't even try to play it since then. mr. griffin. would you supply that to the commission? mr. dean. yes, sir. mr. griffin. if you would make a note of that, i would appreciate it. mr. dean. any particular speed that you want this? mr. griffin. no; and incidentally, if you would like it transcribed at a speed that will play on your recorder, i am sure we would be happy to do that for you, and just exchange tapes, since we are taking a tape from you, we will give it back to you at a speed you can play. mr. dean. okay; all right. mr. griffin. now, where did this klif interview take place? mr. dean. it was on the second floor there in the small room that was unoccupied at the time. mr. griffin. what did you do after that interview? mr. dean. i stayed around the office. i don't remember anything particularly that i did do. again, answering questions of people coming on. i think that some men had been called in from off duty to report for duty. gosh, i don't even remember what time i got off from work that day. mr. griffin. did you stay around the office all the rest of the time that you were there, that you were on duty? mr. dean. well, i would imagine that i went back to the basement. let me think. the rest of the time i didn't do anything in particular. i mean any specific assignment that i can recall. mr. griffin. but you seem to have some idea that you went back to the basement? mr. dean. well, the reason i think that i did, i had been away from there about an hour and a half, and i just wanted to go back. i am sure that i went back down there just to check on the situation and the confusion that might have been in the basement, to see if possibly i would have to notify the on-coming platoon how many men they might need to stay around the city hall, quell this confusion. mr. griffin. did you go back up to the third floor at all? mr. dean. no, sir. mr. griffin. the rest of that day? mr. dean. no, sir; i don't think so. mr. griffin. did you talk to any officers from the homicide bureau at all, that day, the rest of that day? mr. dean. not that i recall; no, sir. mr. griffin. did you talk with any police officers that day, about how ruby got into the basement? mr. dean. yes, sir. mr. griffin. who did you talk to? mr. dean. yes, sir; now, you are bringing something back. i know now what i did immediately--we will have to go back on the record. when i got back to the city hall, i contacted lieutenant pierce and advised him--that's when i talked to pierce about my conversation with ruby, and i told him that i had talked to ruby and that he told me that--how he had gotten into the basement, which was breaking security, and that officer r. e. vaughn was the man involved. mr. griffin. ruby told you--or you told him---- mr. dean. i told lieutenant pierce that ruby had told me he had came in through the main street ramp, at which officer vaughn was posted. mr. griffin. and then what did you and pierce do? mr. dean. he notified the captain of this. mr. griffin. talbert? mr. dean. yes, sir. mr. griffin. and did talbert come in? were you present when pierce notified talbert? mr. dean. i was present when--i do know that they called vaughn in, but i think that he had already gone home that day, and that he was off the next day, and i think they called him to tell him to come, to report to the office this next morning, to investigate whether he did let ruby in or how he got in, or why he said he came in through his post. mr. griffin. you didn't talk with vaughn the rest of the day? mr. dean. no, sir. mr. griffin. and to your knowledge pierce didn't talk with him the rest of that day? mr. dean. no, sir. mr. griffin. or talbert? mr. dean. no, sir. mr. griffin. now, what else was done that day, as you recall, as a result of your telling pierce about the conversation with ruby? mr. dean. i am sure that--i don't know. i am thinking that captain talbert called chief fisher, notified him of it. mr. griffin. what's your best estimate of what time of the day that would have been, that you talked with pierce? mr. dean. it was that afternoon, i believe, after i had gotten back from the hospital. i didn't remember it a while ago, but i think when i did get back from the hospital, that's when i told lieutenant pierce about it, somewhere around : or . mr. griffin. is there any kind of record that you would have maintained, or the police department would have maintained, that would give us some better way of fixing that time? mr. dean. no, sir; not that i know of. mr. griffin. dispatchers? did you call the dispatcher to tell them you were coming back? mr. dean. no, sir; now, it was about when i was talking--or had taken mrs. oswald in to view lee, and i left then, somewhere around . so i got back to the station, maybe around : or : , so when i told lieutenant pierce about it, it should have been somewhere around, maybe , or the first time i saw him. mr. griffin. now, did you, after coming back and talking with pierce, make any further efforts or make any effort to talk with people who you had assigned in the basement, or who you knew were working in the basement, concerning the security of the basement? mr. dean. yes, sir; i did ask nelson could he say for sure that this man didn't come through his post, and he said he could say for sure that he didn't come through the police and court building, nelson's post. mr. griffin. now, when did you talk with nelson? mr. dean. this was, i am sure, when i got back--probably when i got back from the hospital. i don't recall. it might have been before i went. this was my main thought, as to how the man got into the basement. mr. griffin. did you call vaughn at that time? mr. dean. no, sir; i asked him, just as i asked the others, had this man come through, because i knew the focal point was going to be on vaughn, and i knew the investigation was going to be on vaughn. mr. griffin. now, did you talk with vaughn that afternoon? mr. dean. it seems that lieutenant pierce and i talked to him, and i think captain talbert was there. it was up on the second floor. it seems that we did talk to him that day, asked him did he have any knowledge of how he got into the basement. captain talbert was doing most of the questioning. i told lieutenant pierce and captain talbert what ruby had told me, and from this he was questioning vaughn. now, i think this was in the afternoon and vaughn was scheduled to be off the next day, and captain talbert told him he better come on into work the next day, for the purpose, i assumed, of more investigation. mr. griffin. how about nelson, when was nelson talked to? mr. dean. well now. i talked to nelson myself. i don't know. i am sure that somebody else did too, but i don't know. mr. griffin. was that before or after you talked with vaughn? mr. dean. i don't remember. mr. griffin. and where did that conversation with nelson take place? mr. dean. he was still on his post when i talked to him. of course, this--whether it was before i went to the hospital or--i am sure that it probably was before i went to the hospital, that i asked nelson could he say for certain that this man hadn't come by him, and he said yes. and then i asked patterson, all of them; patterson, nelson, vaughn, stated the man did not come by their post, but i--the focal would be on vaughn, since i had been told that that's where ruby came in, by ruby himself. mr. griffin. well now. nelson gave a statement---- voice. excuse me. mr. griffin. off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. griffin. nelson was interviewed by the bureau--federal bureau of investigation on december , and the bureau indicates that he told them, and this is the bureau's language and not his, talking about his post, he said the other officer assigned there with him was a reserve officer whose name he does not know. he was there for just or minutes, when sergeant putnam told them to station themselves just behind the first jail office window, for people were coming in, in regard to jail office business, such as seeing prisoners. they were instructed not to let any unauthorized persons through the door or ramp leading into the basement. okay, when i read that i was mistaken as to where i thought he was standing, so that i was under the impression he was pulled off of his post, but that would be entirely consistent. apparently all they did was to move him a few feet. well, the jail office window, you have three here. one, two, and three windows--so [indicating]. well now, did you talk with bobby patterson at all? mr. dean. yes, sir; i asked him could he say for sure that this man didn't come in his post. mr. griffin. and when did you talk with him? mr. dean. some time before i went to the hospital. mr. griffin. did you talk with a reserve officer by the name of newman? mr. dean. i don't recall the name. mr. griffin. did you talk with this reserve officer who was stationed over in this area here, as you have indicated on the map [indicating]? mr. dean. i asked sergeant putnam--in fact, we had talked during the day about this man, whether to keep him or not, and i said definitely keep him there, tell him to remain there. now, i don't recall talking to this man specifically about seeing if anyone had come through here. i was fairly certain that they hadn't. the main thing i was thinking about was that ruby told me he came in here. i had no reason to doubt him, but i didn't know how he had gotten in, other than what he had said, just walking down, and i knew that this was putting r. e. vaughn in dereliction of his duty. mr. griffin. well, now; it's my understanding you talked with patterson before you went to parkland hospital? mr. dean. yes, sir. mr. griffin. and you talked with vaughn and nelson after you went to parkland? mr. dean. well, i probably asked all of them the question, "did you see this man come in here; do you know him?" and, of course, vaughn said he knew him. patterson said he knew him. i don't recall whether nelson said he knew him or not, but that patterson and vaughn both stated, and along with nelson, that he did not come through their post. mr. griffin. now, did you talk with any of the other men who were stationed down there in the basement? mr. dean. no, sir; these were the men that i assigned and gave my instructions, and those were the ones that i could talk to. mr. griffin. do you remember, on november , talking at all with "blackie" harrison? mr. dean. no, sir. mr. griffin. about this? mr. dean. no, sir. mr. griffin. how about l. d. miller? mr. dean. no, sir. mr. griffin. how about mcmillon? mr. dean. no, sir. mr. griffin. now, you saw mcmillon and, as i understand---- mr. dean. he was with jack ruby when we interviewed him up in the jail. mr. griffin. yes. mr. dean. and he asked no questions. i am sure that he stood there and listened, as an interested party, or---- mr. griffin. how about bob lowery? mr. dean. no, sir; i didn't talk to him. mr. griffin. now, after you had passed this information on to pierce, as i recall, you said that you thought you might have talked with vaughn some time that afternoon? mr. dean. yes, sir. mr. griffin. do you remember anything else you did that afternoon besides possibly talking with vaughn? mr. dean. not anything else particularly, other than asking nelson and patterson, along with vaughn, separately, rather, or individually, that i did ask them did this man come by them, and they said no. mr. griffin. by the time you left work that day, had any instructions been given with respect to preparing reports as to what happened? mr. dean. no, sir; this was the next morning. mr. griffin. now, did you file a report at the end of the day? mr. dean. at the end of the day? mr. griffin. yes, sir. mr. dean. no, sir. mr. griffin. did you make any notes that particular day, on the th? mr. dean. yes, sir; my assignments. mr. griffin. and other than your assignments, did you make any other notes? mr. dean. no, sir. mr. griffin. and do you keep those in a regular assignment book? mr. dean. no, sir; just a small notebook that i had. i always--when i deal with a group of men, rather than try to remember where i put them, i always write it down. mr. griffin. when was the first time that you made any notes about the events, or wrote a report about the events of the th? mr. dean. november the--i think probably i wrote this report on the th, which was the next day, but it's headed november the th, but i imagine that's the time the typist got to it. she was doing a lot of typing from then on, but i think the next morning is when i wrote this report. mr. griffin. now, do you have the original notes that you made, that you used to write that report up? mr. dean. this report; yes, sir. this is the one that i will supply to you. mr. griffin. good. when was the next time that you saw jack ruby, after your interview or session with him up there? mr. dean. the next time i saw him? mr. griffin. yes. mr. dean. in the courtroom during the trial. mr. griffin. off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. griffin. now, i am going to hand you what i have marked for identification as exhibit , which is marked "dallas, texas, sergeant dean, march , , exhibit ." this is actually stapled to exhibit , but exhibit is the report of the interview that you had with fbi agents paul l. scott and edmond c. hardin, on december , , in dallas. will you look at that, sergeant dean, and tell me if you had a chance to read that over? let me ask you first of all, if you have had a chance to read it over? mr. dean. yes, sir; last night. there are some corrections [indicating]---- mr. griffin. will you state to us what you think should be corrected in that statement? mr. dean. on page , the last paragraph, i don't know whether it's too important. it says, "dean recalled that before starting the search of the basement he assigned officer b. g. patterson to stand at the commerce street ramp leading to the basement." now, this is actually the exit from the basement, if that means anything. the way it reads here it sounds like that's the entrance. mr. griffin. why don't you take my pen and change that. you might make it read, "which is the exit"---- mr. dean. exit from the basement. mr. griffin. yes; and if you would, just out in the margin, put your initials and the date. mr. dean. page , paragraph , same error, commerce street ramp leading into the basement [indicating]. mr. griffin. okay. mr. dean. i will mark it "exit". page , paragraph --off the record. mr. griffin. yes; all right; that's all right. mr. dean. it says, "dean has known jack ruby since ." this is erroneous. mr. griffin. how should it read? mr. dean. it should be either or , whatever date--i could find out and let you know for sure, the time that i came downtown from the oak cliff area, as a sergeant. i was assigned to the downtown area, which includes the location of carousel club. i have been downtown some or months before i was assigned to this location. so i would say it would have been about or months after i was transferred to the downtown area that i met jack ruby. mr. griffin. how long were you assigned to that downtown area? mr. dean. about a year and a half. mr. griffin. and were you a sergeant at that time? mr. dean. yes, sir. mr. griffin. did you have any men working under your direction? mr. dean. yes, sir. mr. griffin. how many men worked under your direction down there? mr. dean. well, it would vary from the hours that i worked, from to or men, depending on the hours. twelve regular men, or regular men. mr. griffin. now, was vaughn under your direction at that time? mr. dean. no, sir. vaughn has never worked for me directly. mr. griffin. how about nelson? mr. dean. no, sir. mr. griffin. how about bobby patterson? mr. dean. yes, sir. patterson worked for me when i was assigned to the area in the , district , in the downtown area. mr. griffin. and was that the area that jack ruby's nightclub was in? mr. dean. patterson occasionally worked on the district that ruby's carousel club was on. not as a regular man. mr. griffin. do you know if patterson was friendly with ruby? mr. dean. no, sir. mr. griffin. you just don't know? mr. dean. i don't know. mr. griffin. do you consider yourself a friend of patterson's? mr. dean. not intimately; no, sir. mr. griffin. do you see patterson on a social basis? mr. dean. no, sir. mr. griffin. does patterson still work under your direction? mr. dean. no, sir. mr. griffin. whose direction is he under now? mr. dean. sergeant jennings, w. g. jennings. he is still assigned to that area. not the specific district that the carousel was on, or has been on, but let's see--i don't recall exactly what district he is assigned to; i believe. mr. griffin. go ahead, if there is anything else. incidentally, on this date, have we turned the page on that? the date there, why don't you make a correction as to what you think it is, and if you feel, when you check your notes, that you want to correct it even more exactly, why you can be free to do it [indicating]. mr. dean. i would like to clarify this one thing. "on occasions when driving in the area with another officer, he would go up to the carousel, usually once or twice a week." this is true, as far as once or twice a week, and sometimes three times a week. however, this--with another officer is erroneous. usually it would be with some friend of mine that would be riding with me, rather than another officer. mr. griffin. okay. why don't you put that down? mr. dean. mutual friend or---- mr. griffin. this would be somebody that would be interested in sort of riding with the police officer, like newspaper reporters do? mr. dean. yes, sir. "in addition, dean said he had gone to the club while off duty on four occasions." i would say four would be the outside, but i think i have been there only three times since i have known him, since or [indicating]. mr. griffin. why don't you change that, then. when is the time you were there most recently? mr. dean. the last time i had been in his place was--well, we will say relative to the shooting, i haven't been in there since, and i think or months before would be the last time i had been in there, and in fact, that long since i had seen ruby. mr. griffin. did you know any of ruby's employees? mr. dean. by name. no, sir. mr. griffin. but you knew them to talk to? mr. dean. to speak only. the people that were in the trial, well, george senator, i didn't know his name. i couldn't place it--knew the face but i didn't know his name until the trial, and he was a bartender regularly at the club. mr. griffin. now, was he the bartender there on a regular basis in or ? mr. dean. yes, sir. he was a regular there all the time that i worked there, or worked in that area. mr. griffin. who else did you recognize at the trial whom you remember from the carousel club? mr. dean. i don't believe i recognized anyone, other than this fellow george senator. mr. griffin. was there a negro man named andy armstrong that testified at the trial? mr. dean. i don't know. i don't know andy armstrong. mr. griffin. he is one of ruby's workers there. okay. anything else in there that [indicating]---- mr. dean. well, i would like for the record to show that my visits while off duty to the carousel was definitely an exception rather than rule, and it would usually be when out-of-town people would come to town, and this, by my working in that area, had gone in there frequently on duty, i knew--or there had never been any trouble in there, to my knowledge, as far as fights and such as that. i knew it was a safe place for an off-duty officer to go, and interesting to someone that hadn't seen it. so this is the exception that i went there. i recall now, by reading this investigation by the fbi, that soon after i had left the basement after this shooting, or left the immediate area where oswald was laying, i do recall now asking r. c. nelson, that was stationed at that doorway, had he come in that way, and he then stated he was positive he hadn't. this was reflected in this--i do remember. i wanted it to show that i do remember now, after reading that. mr. griffin. now, let me stop you here, sergeant. mr. dean. all right. mr. griffin. let me direct your attention to one portion of that report. have you read that portion of the report which deals with this lengthy discussion that you and i had about the talk, the one talk you had with ruby on the date that ruby shot oswald; have you read that portion of the report? mr. dean. in the fbi report? mr. griffin. yes. mr. dean. let's see. i don't recall reading it. you mean now have i read it? mr. griffin. yes. have you just read it? mr. dean. no; i haven't read it. mr. griffin. would you find that, or i can maybe find it for you quicker, but would you find that portion in there and would you read that and tell me if that reports everything that you learned from ruby at that time? mr. dean. if it's included in this report [indicating]. mr. griffin. yes. and i don't have simply reference to the discussion about entering the basement, but if it reports everything of importance that he told you during that interview? mr. dean. i believe that this february report would--the fbi report doesn't include--it has the questions that i asked of ruby and not of sorrels, if that's what you mean, it does. but this february report is what [indicating]. mr. griffin. let me hand you, then, what i have marked for identification as exhibit . it's a copy of a letter signed by you, dated february , , addressed to mr. j. e. curry, chief of police. did you prepare that letter? mr. dean. yes; i did [indicating]. mr. griffin. and let me ask you this, is that a true and accurate copy of the actual original letter that you sent? mr. dean. that's a copy i made myself, a xerox copy [indicating]. mr. griffin. did you write that letter on the basis of any notes? mr. dean. no, sir; from memory. mr. griffin. now, did you prepare any prior reports to the police department or anybody else, in connection with the events that are recounted in that february th letter, other than the letter dated november , to chief curry, which i have marked exhibit , and this interview report, which we have designated ; are there any other writings that you prepared prior to february ? mr. dean. yes, sir; there is one report that i had written regarding the article in the newspaper, that i had seen ruby come into the basement. mr. griffin. i see. mr. dean. do you have that? mr. griffin. i don't know if i have got that or not. could you get us a copy of that? i don't know if we have that or not. mr. dean. yes, sir; now, i think the fbi made several--or made a report of that, also. the investigation about the department there, i don't know---- mr. griffin. well, i know they made an investigation of it, and i don't have the actual copy of the report. i have got the results of their investigation but not the report. mr. dean. i see. mr. griffin. all right. other than that report on the newspaper article and these two other exhibits that i have referred to, are there any other writings that you made that relate to the subject matters as recounted in this february ---- mr. dean. no, sir. mr. griffin. letter. now, how did you come to write this letter of february , ? mr. dean. chief stevenson called me, while i was in the office on that date, and asked me to come up to see him, and i did. and he asked me was i present during the entire interview with ruby and mr. sorrels. i told him i was. and he asked me did i remember most of the interview; could i recollect most of the interview and the answers that ruby had given and i said, "yes, sir." then he advised me to make a report of it, asked me would i make a report of it, recalling everything that i could of that interview. to the best of my knowledge, that's all i could remember. and i did testify to all this stuff in the trial. mr. griffin. is this the first time that you told anyone that ruby had told sorrels that he thought about killing oswald two nights prior when he saw him in the showup room? mr. dean. well, i don't recall telling it to any particular person. i knew that this would probably be later used as testimony, i felt, since it was--did make an impression on me, that i could remember it, and it's written as i do remember, just about as it happened, it correlates pretty well, even though we didn't get together with mr. sorrels' report. mr. griffin. but you can't remember? mr. dean. talking to anyone especially or specifically about what ruby had told me, other than how he got into the basement and how long he had been there; no, sir. mr. griffin. or of any particular reference to the statement that ruby made to sorrels that you have reported in here, about thinking about killing oswald two nights before; you can't remember that you ever---- mr. dean. no, sir; i did feel at the time that i would probably testify to this in court. i did witness mr. sorrels taking his notes, and i felt if i had to, since i did witness it, i could use the notes. mr. griffin. now, i think there is one other exhibit that i haven't identified. we have talked about it, and that's exhibit , which is a copy of a letter which purports to have been prepared by you, addressed to chief curry, dated november , . would you look at exhibit [indicating]? mr. dean. yes, sir; that's my report [indicating]. mr. griffin. and you have read that over many times, have you not? mr. dean. yes, sir; would you like for me to sign it? mr. griffin. yes, sir; i would like for you to sign both and . mr. dean. all right. mr. griffin. are there any additions or corrections you wanted to make to that? mr. dean. no, sir. mr. griffin. put a date by that, by your signature also, if you will [indicating]. mr. dean. all right. mr. griffin. and let me hand you , and ask you to sign that and date it [indicating]. mr. dean. it's been signed--of course, this is a xerox copy. do you want me to go ahead and sign it again? mr. griffin. yes. mr. dean. all right [indicating]. mr. griffin. would you take this one here, exhibit , and would you sign that and date it [indicating]? mr. dean. where [indicating]? mr. griffin. on the front page, i think probably is just as well [indicating]. off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. griffin. sergeant, you and i have been talking here off the record for--i don't have a watch, but i would guess for or minutes, with respect to other matters, and you indicated to me just before we brought the court reporter in, that you had obtained some information that apparently had not been previously made available to the commission, and i wonder if you could tell us what that is? mr. dean. it was relative to a telephone call that i received last night at about o'clock in the morning. i didn't mark the time. mr. griffin. where were you? mr. dean. at city hall. in the office there. the city hall operator had called me and told me that she had a man, or an operator on the line from victoria, british columbia, in canada, and that she had been--this operator had told her she had been talking to a man in victoria about some films that he had of the assassination, and asked me did i want to take the call, and it wasn't--it was a collect call, and the operator said that she couldn't unless it was by my authorization, but she did tell me she heard this man talk enough that she believed he was serious and had something that possibly could be used by the warren commission. and, of course, i heard some of the conversation, and the man sounded rational, and the operator in victoria, her name was bernice williamson, she is the night supervisor of the b.c. telephone company, said that she had talked to this man long enough that she thought he probably had something. and so i accepted the call. this man's name was ralph simpson. he was calling from - , and he told me that he had been standing on the southern part of the plaza when the assassination took place, and he had a wide scope movie camera that he believed would have taken in the building and the motorcade at the time the shots were fired; that he had talked it over with his attorney--and the name of the attorney was batter [spelling] b-a-t-t-e-r, is what i got, and that batter advised him to call someone here, but not the warren commission. and he asked me--when i accepted the call, he asked me what i would suggest, and i told him that first he should mail them to the warren commission. and then he asked me had i been to the warren commission. he recognized my name, that i had been testifying, and i said, "yes; and i am scheduled to go back tomorrow night." and he said, "well, i will send the films to you. they haven't been--". well, he said they hadn't been developed, and he wasn't going to have them developed, that he would send them to me airmail. this was about o'clock in the night--on the morning of the th, this morning [indicating]. mr. griffin. all right. you have in front of you, sergeant, a piece of paper? mr. dean. yes, sir; what i took notes---- mr. griffin. are those your original notes? mr. dean. yes, sir. mr. griffin. can i mark that for identification? mr. dean. yes, sir. mr. griffin. i am going to mark this, "dallas. tex., sergeant dean, march , , exhibit ." now, let me see if i understand you correctly. this was a collect call placed from canada to the police department? mr. dean. yes, sir. mr. griffin. by a man by the name of simpson, ralph simpson? mr. dean. yes, sir. mr. griffin. did you actually talk with simpson? mr. dean. yes, sir. mr. griffin. how long did the telephone call last? mr. dean. four minutes and three seconds, i think. mr. griffin. is this the name of the operator that put the call through, bernice williamson? mr. dean. she was the victoria operator. mr. griffin. did you get the name of the city operator? mr. dean. the city operator was patsy. i don't know her last name. patsy. she is the night operator at city hall. mr. griffin. would you indicate that patsy handled that? did patsy listen in on the call? mr. dean. yes [indicating]. mr. griffin. and have you talked with her about this since? mr. dean. no, sir; she called back and gave me the time and charges on it. mr. griffin. and is there a record of that in the police department? mr. dean. yes, sir. mr. griffin. can you get that for us? mr. dean. yes, sir. mr. griffin. i would appreciate that. mr. dean. now, when she called me back to give me the time and charges she said that the operator had further checked this number - , and that number was--the call was made from the residence of the initials r. h. w., last name [spelling] s-m-e-l-e [indicating]. mr. griffin. who had checked that, now? mr. dean. the police department---- mr. griffin. patsy? mr. dean. no, sir; this night supervisor, bernice williamson in canada, had contacted the police department there and asked them could they cross that number, or furnish her the address or name. mr. griffin. did bernice williamson tell you this after you finished the telephone call? mr. dean. she told patsy, the city hall operator this, and this is---- mr. griffin. patsy reconveyed that to you? mr. dean. yes, sir. mr. griffin. and you learned this from patsy after the conversation with simpson? mr. dean. yes, sir; this r. h. w. smele has an address of caldonia in victoria. mr. griffin. all right. have you reported this to anybody else? mr. dean. no, sir. mr. griffin. i appreciate your bringing it to us then, very much. would you sign that exhibit, sergeant? mr. dean. [indicating.] mr. griffin. we will certainly look into that right away. off the record. (discussion off the record.) mr. griffin. all right. sergeant, we have been off the record here awhile, and you indicated that the man said something about having been here on vacation and some other thing. will you tell us what else? mr. dean. he said he had been here on vacation and that when he learned of the president's coming, he had stationed himself on the southwestern part of the plaza, toward the railroad tracks, and that he had a wide scope--he referred to it as a full wide scope camera, and that he believed that he had gotten the assassination. he was taking pictures at the time of the assassination, and he believed that he had the building in the background, because it's in direct trajectory of the line of fire. my impression of him was that since he said that he had talked it over with his attorney and didn't know what to do with these things, that he seemed to be scared as to whether to keep them or throw them away or what. when he told me that he would send them to me, that he said, "you can have them. i haven't developed them, and you don't have to send me any copies of them back." mr. griffin. will you notify us as soon as they receive those films? mr. dean. yes, sir. mr. griffin. and turn them over to us? mr. dean. yes, sir. you want all the records from the city hall operator? mr. griffin. telephone call; yes. mr. dean. this has been signed and dated [indicating]. mr. griffin. okay. now, i don't know if you have had a chance to read this or not, but this is what i have marked as exhibit , which is an interview with you by special agent paul scott of the federal bureau of investigation on december , . would you look that over and then---- mr. dean. sign it? mr. griffin. sign it and make any changes or additions that you want to make in it. mr. dean. [indicating.] mr. griffin. then let me state for the record that i appreciate very much the assistance that sergeant dean has given us here this evening, and i hope, and i am sure that if anything further comes to light which he thinks would be of value to the commission, that he will come forward with it voluntarily, as you have here today? mr. dean. burt, this--of course, i was cleared of all of this, as far as this newspaper article---- mr. griffin. yes. mr. dean. i was just wondering if you had the fbi report on it? mr. griffin. we do. and i just wanted to make sure that as far as any statements are concerned, that you have made, or report, that you had a chance to look at them, and to my knowledge, i think i have shown you every one that we have on it. mr. dean. all right. mr. griffin. okay. that's all. testimony of patrick trevore dean resumed the testimony of patrick trevore dean was taken at : p.m., on april , , in the office of the u.s. attorney, post office building, bryan and ervay streets, dallas, tex., by mr. leon d. hubert, jr., assistant counsel of the president's commission. mr. p. t. dean was accompanied by his lawyer, mr. ted macmasters. mr. hubert. note that i am present. note that sgt. p. t. dean is present and mr. ted macmasters assistant city attorney of dallas, and appearing as attorney for mister--sergeant dean. now, sergeant dean, your deposition was begun on---- mr. dean. i believe it was a tuesday. mr. macmasters. march . mr. hubert. mr. burt griffin as the member of the commission's advisory staff conducting the examination. at that time you took an oath, i believe? mr. dean. yes, sir. mr. hubert. are you willing to consider that this is simply a continuation of that deposition? mr. dean. yes; i am. mr. hubert. and that you are under the same oath that you were before? mr. dean. yes, sir. mr. hubert. i wish to advise you that i have been authorized by mr. j. lee rankin, general counsel for the commission's staff to take your deposition under oath also. in other words, both mr. griffin and i have been so authorized, and i think he advised you of the general conditions and the right of notice and waiver and so forth? mr. dean. yes, sir. mr. hubert. so that as far as i am concerned, i will just ask you if you have anything to add to your deposition or anything to say at all in any way? mr. dean. i told mr. griffin on that date that i would bring him additional information that he wanted. one was a record of the telephone call received on the th. now, that would make your interview on the th, actually, i believe. now, no, no; that's right. the morning, early morning hours of the th is when i received this call from victoria, canada. that is a record of it from the city hall operator. that was pertaining to the film from the fellow in alaska--or--correction, in canada that he said he would---- mr. macmasters. do you want to identify this? mr. hubert. you have handed me two documents and i judge that one of them is a photostatic copy of a front of a document, and the other is a photostatic copy of the rear of that document? mr. dean. yes, sir. mr. hubert. well; i am going to mark them for identification as follows: "dallas, tex., april , . exhibit--" we'll use number-- , continuation of deposition of sgt. p. t. dean." and i am signing my name for the purposes of identification and i am signing the second document which you state is a photostatic copy of the back of the document now identified as exhibit , as follows: "dallas, tex., april , . exhibit -a, continuation of deposition of p. t. dean." signing my name on the back of this, and for the purposes of identification and to show that we are both talking about the same document, would you mind putting your name below mine? mr. dean. all right, sir. mr. hubert. now, will you identify what these two documents were? perhaps we'd better do it again, in the light of their identification numbers, so, let me ask you what are the documents that have now been marked for identification as and -a? mr. dean. a record of the city hall's operator receiving a call from victoria, canada, on that date of march , about o'clock in the morning and at that time i talked to--i believe it is jack simpson, or it is ralph simpson, and he stated that he had a reel of movie film that he had taken of the assassination and the trajectory of the line of fire which was on the far side of the plaza, which would be on the south side of commerce street. mr. simpson told me on the phone that he believed he had gotten not only the assassination, but also the building from where the bullet was fired. but i advised him--he wanted to know what to do with this film, and i advised him to send it to the warren commission in washington, and he said that he had talked to his attorney and the attorney, batter [phonetic] in victoria, i didn't get the first name, his attorney had advised him to contact someone in dallas and to send them to whatever place they said other than to the warren commission. he then asked me could he send them to me and i told him that he could. i checked with my office then just before coming over here today and the film hadn't come in. mr. hubert. did he say he was going to send them by mail? mr. dean. yes; he said he would airmail them the next day. mr. hubert. did he indicate why he had called you, or just that you were on duty? mr. dean. just on the advice of his attorney. mr. hubert. but, i mean, your particular name? mr. dean. no; he didn't ask for me particularly. however, he said that he recognized my name from reading of my testimony in the papers. mr. hubert. in other words, he made the call, he was calling specifically to you. you happened to be on duty, and therefore, the call came to you? mr. dean. that's right, and that is the record of the call received. that is what mr. griffin wanted. mr. hubert. and the other part that you told us about was the substance of a phone call? mr. dean. yes, sir. mr. hubert. right. okay. now, if you are going to talk about another document let's get it identified first and get numbers on it. now. mr. dean, you are handing me a document consisting of three pages being apparently a photostatic copy of a letter dated april , , addressed to j. e. curry, chief of police. last page shows "p. treavor dean---- mr. macmasters. i believe that is december . you said april. mr. hubert. oh, no, no. december . couldn't be april , we aren't there yet. "p. treavor dean, sergeant police control division," and in order that it may be identified and that the record may show what we're talking about, i am marking this first page in the right-hand margin, "dallas, tex., april , . exhibit , continuation of deposition of p. t. dean," signing my name below that, and the inscription on the second page, placing my initial in the right-hand lower corner and on the third page i am doing the same, and also ask you to sign the pages and initial them as i have done. mr. dean. all right. mr. hubert. all right, sir. now, do you have any comments to make with reference to this document , which you have handed me? mr. dean. no, sir; i believe it is self-explanatory. mr. hubert. is this one of the documents that---- mr. dean. mr. griffin asked me would i bring. mr. hubert. all right, sir. thank you. mr. dean. mr. griffin also asked me to bring a copy, if i had one, of my original notes that i had taken in the basement that day of my assignments and i have those. mr. hubert. now, what day are you speaking of? the th? mr. dean. yes, sir; november . mr. hubert. november . mr. dean. they are not all--all my assignments are not here. however, the majority of them are. mr. hubert. when you say your assignments, you mean the people you assigned, or the job you were assigned to? mr. dean. the people that i assigned to various locations in the basement. mr. hubert. i see. now, do you propose to let me then have that or a photostatic copy of it, or do you propose simply to dictate the information into the record? mr. dean. well, how about me just dictating it and i will keep this? mr. hubert. all right. now, if mr. griffin's purpose was to find out whether they existed, then perhaps i ought to look at them so i can state i have seen these things myself. mr. dean. all right, sir. mr. hubert. therefore, let the record show that as mr. dean reads the information he is going to read, i am following him, and if he reads them correctly, i will say nothing. if he reads them incorrectly, or in a way that i do not understand, i will call it to his attention so that we may get it clear. all right? mr. dean. my first assignments were made just prior to our searching the basement. they were officer vaughn. r. e. vaughn i assigned to the main street ramp, which is the north ramp entering the basement. officer patterson, b. g. patterson to the commerce street ramp, which is the exit onto commerce street. these men were to be--were assigned to the top of these ramps. officer brock was assigned to the elevator in the basement. officer nelson was assigned in the hall at the jail doors. well, in--at the jail window. mr. hubert. what is that? mr. dean. this is "commerce ramp". all right, now, officer jez, i assigned him with patterson at the commerce street ramp. mr. hubert. now, of course, these notes are not exactly like that. you have added a few words, but let the record show that there is--displayed to me a paper which has, in substance, all that mr. dean has testified to. mr. macmasters. you are interpolating your notes, aren't you? mr. dean. yes, sir; and adding initials and--yes, sir. these two other men here, i don't know which one for sure, but they are reserve officers fred a. briederdorf, it looks like [spelling] b-r-i-e-d-e-r--or, b-e-r-d-r-f, and also another man by the name of hunt, initials of which i don't know, or the first name. they were assigned to the basement, and i think that one of these two men i assigned to the entrance into the basement, or the machinery room. mr. hubert. there is a word here. mr. dean. reserve. mr. hubert. oh, that is reserve---- mr. dean. this is the page where i started to make some traffic assignments and they changed it, so, i--now, these are the traffic assignments just prior to the movement of oswald. at commerce and pearl i assigned officer erwin, initials i don't know. at commerce and central, officer burton. at central and main, officer wages. at central and elm, officer gregory. at pearl and elm, officer tolbert. at harwood and elm, officer fox. at st. paul and elm, officer wise. at elm and ervay, shows here brock. brock. at stone and elm, officer raz. akard and elm, officer hibbs. at field and elm, officer anderson, and at lamar and elm, officer ferris. now, these were just tentative assignments. i think in one of my reports that is already in evidence is the permanent assignments, but these are the originals that i made that afternoon which were tentative. now, this is just a note that i had written down from a bob stewart. he worked for wrr, and he was giving me some information that he had received. i don't remember from where he had received it, but he stated to me, and i had written it down here, a serge fliger, he is with mutual news in vienna, austria, and that in essence--now, i can interpret these notes for you, if you would rather. mr. hubert. why don't you just read them and then interpret them. mr. dean. that source of serge's information from behind the iron curtain that a man told him, and he--it was a man that he stated that he trusted completely, that there was a group of dissident russian soldiers, that this whole thing was an international plot, and that the communists would kill off oswald as quick as possible. mr. hubert. now, with reference to those last few notes about fliger, what you have read is not exactly what is in the book itself, but it is rather your---- mr. dean. more of an interpretation of my notes, because i had written it rather hurriedly. mr. hubert. but, let the record show that as i read the notes the interpretation of them seems consistent with what i read. mr. dean. i believe that is all that is in here, mr. hubert. i believe that's all. mr. hubert. now, may i ask this; were all those notes that you have just shown to me and read into the record with interpolations written in your own hand? mr. dean. yes, sir. mr. hubert. were they written at the time that you made the various assignments and so forth? mr. dean. yes, sir. mr. hubert. and that includes also that information about that serge fliger from austria? mr. dean. yes, sir. mr. hubert. all right. mr. dean. and also, mr. griffin wanted me to find, if i could obtain a copy of the--regarding a tape recording. it was an interview with radio station klif, and this interview took place about : on november . mr. hubert. : p.m.? mr. dean. that afternoon. yes, sir; i do have a copy of that and i have listened to it and it is true and correct to the best of my knowledge, sir. mr. hubert. are you proposing to give me the tape itself, or a transcription of it? mr. dean. well, that is a transcript, i assume. i just asked klif would they make me a copy of it and this is, a transcript. mr. hubert. do you propose to let me have the film, or this little record, or seems to be tape on a regular roll. do you want it back? mr. dean. could i have it back when the commission gets through with it? mr. hubert. yes, sir; but i don't know when that will be, you know. mr. dean. well, whenever it might be. mr. hubert. i am trying to see how we are going to mark this. mr. macmasters. could it be placed in a sealed envelope and initialed across it and seal it and so forth? mr. hubert. i have placed my initials, ldh, on one end of the tape, and i have done that also, on the other end of the tape and giving the exhibit number of--by marking it "ex, ," with ball point pen on both ends of the tape, and then i'm also marking the small box, " " on one side, and " " on the other side, with my initials on both sides. mr. dean. do you want me to initial it? mr. hubert. oh, i don't know that that is necessary if you have heard that recording. mr. dean. yes, sir. mr. hubert. and it is a true recording of an interview of you, as i understand it, that you had with some reporter of the---- mr. dean. at klif. mr. hubert. do you remember his name? mr. dean. glenn duncan. it is on the tape also. mr. hubert. all right, sir. you think it is a correct recording of a conversation? mr. dean. yes, sir. mr. hubert. all right, anything else? mr. dean. no, sir; i, well, when these film, if they do come in, this fellow does send them to me, i will make them available to you. mr. hubert. you can do so through mr. barefoot sanders. contact us immediately. mr. dean. all right, sir. mr. hubert. i will accept this and place these various exhibits you have given me today in with the other exhibits in the folder that we are putting all these exhibits in. mr. dean. all right. mr. hubert. any other matters? mr. dean. no, sir. mr. hubert. that is all. thank you very much. mr. macmasters, thank you very much. transcriber's notes: punctuation and spelling were made consistent when a predominant preference was found in this book; otherwise they were not changed. misspellings in quoted evidence not changed; misspellings that could be due to mispronunciations were not changed. some simple typographical errors were corrected. inconsistent hyphenation of compound words retained. ambiguous end-of-line hyphens retained. occasional uses of "mr." for "mrs." and of "mrs." for "mr." corrected. dubious repeated words, (e.g., "the nature of the inquiry tonight is to to determine the facts") retained. several unbalanced quotation marks not remedied. occasional periods that should be question marks not changed. occasional periods that should be commas, and commas that should be periods, were changed only when they clearly had been misprinted (at the end of a paragraph or following a speaker's name in small-caps at the beginning of a line). some commas and semi-colons were printed so faintly that they appear to be periods or colons: some were found and corrected, but some almost certainly remain. occasional missing periods at the ends of sentences have been remedied. the index and illustrated exhibits volumes of this series may not be available at project gutenberg. text uses both "nelson" and "nielson"; may or may not be the same person. text uses both "eberhart" and "eberhardt"; probably the same person. text uses both "macmaster" and "macmasters"; they appear to refer to the same person, "ted p. macmaster", but none of these has been changed. page : "mr. stevenson, my name leon hubert." is missing the word "is". page : "were in the basement; we" was printed with the semi-colon. page : "i directed by attention" is misprint for "my". page : quotation marks in the paragraph beginning "closing the quote" were printed as shown here. page : in " : approximately : ", the second one was printed as " . "; changed here. page : "onduty" may be misprint for "on duty". page : "do you solemnly swear" was misprinted as "your"; changed here. page : "i would recognize them if i say them" was printed that way. page : reference to "detective crenshaw" was spelled that way. page : "i told goolsby" was misprinted as "goodsby"; changed here. page : "i immediately come to town." was printed that way. page : "the th or november " is misprint for "of". page : "no; captain martin" was printed that way. page : "know what you are thinking is about it" was printed that way. page : "let the record show that i am not taking out of the bound" was printed that way. page : "mr. hubert. why don't you go ahead" may be misprint for "mr. griffin." page : "how long have you known officer harrison" was misprinted as "know"; changed here. page : "line of newsman" was printed that way. page : several instances of "mr. putnam." that should have been "sergeant putnam." have not been changed. page : "not seen my anybody" should be "by". page : "mr. watson. but, your head was turned away from the area?" probably was asked by mr. hubert, and mr. watson's response to the previous question is missing. page : "the spot there were you first saw" perhaps should be "where". page : "the part mental interview" probably should be "departmental". page : "is that correct?" was misprinted as "it"; changed here. page : "as the title of the commission would indicate," ends with a comma in the source. page : "were there four of five" probably should be "or".